# PC Mistake.



## Tom Xander Sage (May 17, 2021)

Hey everyone,

I used an old imac 2011 for music composition. Eventually, I was unable to upgrade the OS and some plugins needed a later version etc. Also had friends in need with a very very old Imac so I donated mine to them.

I looked around for a new machine and quickly realised that as a stand-alone mac, there isn't much in between the mac mini and a mac pro which is way outside my price range so I built a pretty powerful pc.

Three months in and windows is just a vexatious experience. Long story short, I'm thinking about listing it for sale and getting a 2018 mac mini (64 gigs of ram), calDigit dock, OWC thunderbolt enclosure for ssd's and a EGPU (some video work).

The other possibility is just an intel Imac which would probably be a better bet but I dislike all in one machines.
I've been looking around forums and watching a few clips and some people have no issues with similar setups but others have a myriad of problems with overheating, audio over USB issues and EGPU disconnection issues just to name a few..

I guess I'm grappling with the following decisions:

Continue to begrudgingly use the pc.
Go down the mac mini route, rely on more external devices and risk possible known issues.
Purchase an Imac.

Would love some feedback on the situation and perhaps your personal feel on a decent route please.


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## Jett Hitt (May 17, 2021)

I really would wait at least until WWDC in June. Leaks are saying that we are about to see the iMac with the M1X. Having lived through the transition from PowerPC to Intel, I suspect that Apple will drop Intel support like a hot rock. Oh they promise continued support, but if it is like the last transition, it won't be anything to write home about. I am biding my time with my old Mac until there is a clear path to the M1xx architecture because I've done this before. This is really not the time to buy, not just yet.


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## rnb_2 (May 17, 2021)

I was in a similar position in late 2018 - owned a few iMacs, ended up not liking the 27" in particular, and wanted something better on the GPU side than was available in the iMacs. I ended up piecing together exactly the Mac mini you're contemplating, complete with eGPU (Radeon Vega 56) and have been pretty happy with it. The Thunderbolt connection on my eGPU case (a rebadged Sonnet 550) is a bit touchy, but only when I bump the cable when moving things around near it - in day-to-day use, no issues.

The trick at this point is getting ahold of a GPU - your best option is probably one of the Sonnet eGPU pucks (either the 5500XT or 5700), since they don't use off-the-shelf GPUs and are therefore available for their usual prices ($599/$899). Due to the chip shortage and crypto madness, recent PCI GPUs are selling for astronomical prices if you can find any in stock.

That said, waiting three weeks to make a decision is probably in your best interest, to at least have a better idea of the lay of the land at that point. We may not see any new Macs announced then - rumors suggest that the worldwide chip shortage has pushed the higher-end MacBook Pros to later in the year, and if Apple has a 27" replacement ready to announce, I think they would have held the 24" and announced at the same time. But, never say never.

Depending on what gets announced on the iPad side at WWDC (there are rumors of virtualized macOS on the iPad Pro - if that works at near-native speed, I may not be able to resist), some or all of my Intel mini setup (2018 i7, 16GB RAM/256GB storage, eGPU) may be available in a month or two at a decent price, but hard to know until June 7th at the earliest.


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## robgb (May 17, 2021)

Honestly, I would wait to see what the M2 or M1x (or whatever it's called) Mac brings. If they bump up the ram on these things, I suspect they'll be amazing.


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## Tom Xander Sage (May 17, 2021)

Sounds like I'm waiting until June.
Thank you folks, much appreciated.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 18, 2021)

Personally, I think the announcements will be disappointing in June with regards to Mac's. Even if they announce something beefier, with more Ram, it's going to be costly. I think 2022 is when we'll see machines more suited to our workflows. Just my $.02 of course! However.....I can attest that the 2020 iMac i7/i9 models are wonderful. I sold my high end slave PC this week, as I no longer need it or VEPro. They bring a lot of bang for the buck, and will be a safe bet for years to come.


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## emilio_n (May 18, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Personally, I think the announcements will be disappointing in June with regards to Mac's. Even if they announce something beefier, with more Ram, it's going to be costly. I think 2022 is when we'll see machines more suited to our workflows. Just my $.02 of course! However.....I can attest that the 2020 iMac i7/i9 models are wonderful. I sold my high end slave PC this week, as I no longer need it or VEPro. They bring a lot of bang for the buck, and will be a safe bet for years to come.


If Apple doesn't announce something incredible during the WWDC in June, I think I will finally go on this route too. If M2 or whatever will raise the RAM to 64Gb will not be cheap and upgradable. At least the 2020 iMac can be upgraded to 128Gb for an "affordable" price.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 18, 2021)

emilio_n said:


> If Apple doesn't announce something incredible during the WWDC in June, I think I will finally go on this route too. If M2 or whatever will raise the RAM to 64Gb will not be cheap and upgradable. At least the 2020 iMac can be upgraded to 128Gb for an "affordable" price.


I agree. And for sure the Ram will not be upgradable. I maxed out my iMac with 128GB for under $600.


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## emilio_n (May 19, 2021)

Bloomberg: Apple paused development of larger Apple Silicon iMac to focus on 24-inch model


Bloomberg’s Mark Gurman published a monster new report this morning detailing next-generation MacBook Pro updates, a new MacBook Air, and updates for the Mac Pro and Mac mini. Also mentioned in the report is a tidbit of information about the development of a larger-screened Apple Silicon iMac...




9to5mac.com





After reading this, I am with the iMac 2020 on my shopping cart...
I have the feeling that we will need to wait at least until early 2022 to have a decent Apple Silicon model for us...


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## mscp (May 19, 2021)

Art1san said:


> Three months in and windows is just a vexatious experience


Most definitely incompatible (and/or) faulty parts, and weird software installs.

I see PC builders making basic mistakes on a daily basis and ending up blaming Windows for their shortcomings. Mac OS users would definitely behave the same if Apple allowed users to do whatever they wanted with their computers.

Modular is not for everyone. It requires knowledge and patience to put an awesome machine together. It took me 6 months of mindful research to build 2 suites.

It all boils down to trade offs. Are you OS agnostic and has free time to build a great machine during projects? By all means…spend more time. Happy days will come. 

Not enough time? Don’t even consider a PC because you WILL have headaches down the line. Spend more money and be happy right away.


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## el-bo (May 19, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> I really would wait at least until WWDC in June. Leaks are saying that we are about to see the iMac with the M1X. Having lived through the transition from PowerPC to Intel, I suspect that Apple will drop Intel support like a hot rock. Oh they promise continued support, but if it is like the last transition, it won't be anything to write home about. I am biding my time with my old Mac until there is a clear path to the M1xx architecture because I've done this before. This is really not the time to buy, not just yet.


It's not even just about promising continued support for older machines. If rumours are correct, there is still another Intel Mac Pro on the horizon.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 19, 2021)

emilio_n said:


> Bloomberg: Apple paused development of larger Apple Silicon iMac to focus on 24-inch model
> 
> 
> Bloomberg’s Mark Gurman published a monster new report this morning detailing next-generation MacBook Pro updates, a new MacBook Air, and updates for the Mac Pro and Mac mini. Also mentioned in the report is a tidbit of information about the development of a larger-screened Apple Silicon iMac...
> ...


Good choice. It's the best iMac Apple has ever released, they are going out with a bang.


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## mscp (May 19, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Personally, I think the announcements will be disappointing in June with regards to Mac's. Even if they announce something beefier, with more Ram, it's going to be costly.


It’s been like this since 2011. Best thing to do is to NOT wait - that way time passes and you don’t get disappointed. Hehe.


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## dunamisstudio (May 19, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> Modular is not for everyone. It requires knowledge and patience to put an awesome machine together. It took me 6 months of mindful research to build 2 suites.
> 
> It all boils down to trade offs. Are you OS agnostic and has free time to build a great machine during projects? By all means…spend more time. Happy days will come.
> 
> Not enough time? Don’t even consider a PC because you WILL have headaches down the line. Spend more money and be happy right away.


It's what I wound up doing. Not a fan of the all in one design of an iMac or the Trash can. I had a Mac Pro tower but it became dated. I was already on Windows for video work. So built a PC for both.


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## sostenuto (May 19, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> Most definitely incompatible (and/or) faulty parts, and weird software installs.
> 
> I see PC builders making basic mistakes on a daily basis and ending up blaming Windows for their shortcomings. Mac OS users would definitely behave the same if Apple allowed users to do whatever they wanted with their computers.
> 
> ...


(3) older Win10 Pro Desktop PC(s) ... all now in line to be Updated fully. Agree with much of what you posted, having built these years ago. Really tough now with CPU improvements and MB compatibility concerns. Also larger DRAM needs ( > 64GB ). Modular remains strong personal preference, but your 'cautions' are critical !


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## mscp (May 19, 2021)

dunamisstudio said:


> It's what I wound up doing. Not a fan of the all in one design of an iMac or the Trash can. I had a Mac Pro tower but it became dated. I was already on Windows for video work. So built a PC for both.


PC and Windows is brilliant but it depends on the user. Sure, it’s not failproof but neither is Mac OS (which has become less reliable over the years - one of the sources of my massive frustration).

Macs are great if:
1. the user has no time to deal with building a PC;
2. doesn’t know much about it and just gathers up parts without doing serious prior research;
3. likes the OS for its UI;
4. uses apple-only software.

Feel free to add more reasons. Those are the ones I generally observe.

PCs are modular systems. With any modular system (e.g: Eurorack), the user must know what he or she is doing in order to get satisfying results. If you’re a “preset” (out of the box) user, don’t bother building a PC. You WILL get angry because you WILL **** it up. And if you do **** it up, instead of blaming windows, see what YOU did wrong.


I’ve been using Windows for 4 years now, and it’s far more stable than the Macs I own (under the stress I put them to). I had to learn from my mistakes though.

I truly want Apple to stop making costly mediocre machines and get back to what they stood for prior to Jobs’s death, mostly because I really dislike doing this kind of research, but I also dislike having mediocre built Macs at premium cost. Build a great mid-range solid machine and I’ll pay that premium, but whatever if you’re going to spare thermal paste to force the machines to purposely thermal throttle so things can go south a couple of years after the purchase. (Among other bad practices). Sick and tired of supporting companies that simply don’t give a ****. Buying Apple from 2011 to recently has been analogous to going to a fancy japanese restaurant and eating tuna rolls for the price of omakase ootoro elsewhere.

I use both PCs and Macs, but I only use my macs for browsing the web and working on spreadsheets.

Come on Apple - stop the BS and build a serious Apple Silicon computer that’s far better than Intel’s and with exchangeable parts even if that means buying those parts from yourself!!!! That would definitely save me a lot of time.

//rant over


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 19, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> Macs are great if:
> 1. the user has no time to deal with building a PC;
> 2. doesn’t know much about it and just gathers up parts without doing serious prior research;
> 3. likes the OS for its UI;
> ...


I'll also add...

* the user wants to ensure the computer components are 100% compatible. 

And when I look at the "cost per use" over the years, the cost of my Mac's are are far better value...especially the reliability and piece of mind. My experience, of course.


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## mscp (May 19, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I'll also add...
> 
> * the user wants to ensure the computer components are 100% compatible.



That can be done in the PC world if the user is not "lazy". I quoted the word lazy because it's not the bad kind of laziness I'm talking about.



Jeremy Spencer said:


> And when I look at the "cost per use" over the years, the cost of my Mac's are are far better value...especially the reliability and piece of mind. My experience, of course.



Try building an amazing PC and you will see what will give you better mileage.  Apple does not manufacture stuff btw...They simply do the "lazy" person's job to put great stuff together. It's all outsourced, which > 90% of it can be bought to build a pc-equivalent since these companies do not sign an exclusivity agreement. (Samsung, Broadcom, etc...). I've even seen Hackintoshes that are more stable and durable than Apple Macs because their users know how to build a superior machine (luckily for 1/3rd of the cost which doesn't really matter). I don't touch Hackintoshes though (for an obvious reason).

It took me exactly 5 years (2012-2017) of constant frustration and incredible denial/peer pressure before I decided to "jump" ship (although I haven't completely done it). Apparently I was sooooo wrong!!! Both machines are IDENTICAL (minus the exclusive apps issue), except that with the PC, the user IS in charge.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 19, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> That can be done in the PC world if the user is not "lazy". I quoted the word lazy because it's not a bad kind of laziness I'm talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> Try building an amazing PC and you will see what will give you better mileage.  Apple does not manufacture stuff btw...They simply do the "lazy" person's job to put great stuff together. It's all outsourced, which > 90% of it can be bought to build a pc-equivalent since these companies do not sign an exclusivity agreement. (Samsung, Broadcom, etc...). I've even seen Hackintoshes that are more stable and durable than Apple Macs because their users know how to build a superior machine (luckily for 1/3rd of the cost which doesn't really matter). I don't touch Hackintoshes though.


Yep, I had custom built PC's for 20+ years.....including my recent build (which I just sold to a lucky composer). Still only as strong as its weakest component.

My point about the compatibility is that the Apple parts are consistent. For example, a 2020 iMac i7 will have the exact same components everywhere in the world, in every machine. A 10th gen i7 10700K PC (same as the iMac processor) will have countless system configurations. This creates a plethora of individual issues when it comes to troubleshooting. I'm probably one of the lucky mac users....it has always pulled though for every deadline, and zero failures. Touch wood!


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## mscp (May 19, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Yep, I had custom built PC's for 20+ years.....including my recent build (which I just sold to a lucky composer). Still only as strong as its weakest component.


Too many factors to consider what has gone wrong in each bad case you might have experienced.


Take HP z8s for example. Holy s... none of those macs can even touch the surface compared to the z8s. Expensive? yes. Components that are fully reliable? absolutely. Can you build one with the same specs for less? for sure.

I learned that it's imperative to contact manufacturers to make sure their stuff work wonderfully with the other stuff I'm planning to buy. If answers are evasive, I avoid them at all costs. I did that for all my machines...zero issues (so far - knock on wood). Also, avoid cheap stuff...it may be reliable but..ermm....



Jeremy Spencer said:


> My point about the compatibility is that the Apple parts are consistent. For example, a 2020 iMac i7 will have the exact same components everywhere in the world, in every machine. A 10th gen i7 10700K PC (same as the iMac processor) will have countless system configurations. This creates a plethora of individual issues when it comes to troubleshooting. I'm probably one of the lucky mac users....it has always pulled though for every deadline, and zero failures. Touch wood!


That's only a problem to software developers fwiw. I only use software that is entirely OS agnostic and purchase from manufacturers that are serious about their work on both platforms mainly because I don't know which direction these companies will take in the future, and I don't want to be a slave to any platform/system/... That would be frightening.

I've never had any of the issues I hear when people complain about Windows.

What strikes me as odd though, is that, when a software goes haywire on a MacOS, users often complain about the software and not the OS --- which makes sense....but when the same happens on Windows...guess what's to blame? I often find people are traumatized about Windows for reasons I might never truly know. For example, updates. It's so funny when people complain about Windows updates breaking some of their stuff but are super lenient when MacOS updates consistently do the same thing...this and other weird inconsistencies is the reason why I used the word "trauma".

To be a bit more graphic:

Situation 1: Windows user updates his OS. Ilok manager breaks (doesn't work). User blames windows.
Situation 2: Mac user updates his OS. Ilok manager breaks (doesn't work). User blames Ilok for not writing new code to support new OS.

And I only gave only one example in the realm of software... I see this level of inconsistent reasoning across all levels of computer-related arguments.


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## Tom Xander Sage (May 24, 2021)

emilio_n said:


> Bloomberg: Apple paused development of larger Apple Silicon iMac to focus on 24-inch model
> 
> 
> Bloomberg’s Mark Gurman published a monster new report this morning detailing next-generation MacBook Pro updates, a new MacBook Air, and updates for the Mac Pro and Mac mini. Also mentioned in the report is a tidbit of information about the development of a larger-screened Apple Silicon iMac...
> ...


I'm might be in the same boat. It's a smart choice for me compared to the 2020 Mac Mini.. Even though I don't like AIO's as it's weird with other displays, It might work well with a large display on the wall behind it :D hmmm.


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## Tom Xander Sage (May 24, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> Most definitely incompatible (and/or) faulty parts, and weird software installs.


Oh yes, most definitely


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## Tom Xander Sage (Jun 7, 2021)

No M1X announced :( Looks like I'll be looking for an Imac/Imac Pro.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 7, 2021)

Art1san said:


> No M1X announced :( Looks like I'll be looking for an Imac/Imac Pro.


You won’t be disappointed.


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## Tom Xander Sage (Jun 7, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> You won’t be disappointed.


Yeah I'm sure it will be fine. I just wanted to get the m1x or m2 if it was announced instead of getting an older intel imac. It's still overpriced somewhat, even second-hand. I would get the current m1 but I just can't work with 16gb of ram.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 8, 2021)

Art1san said:


> Yeah I'm sure it will be fine. I just wanted to get the m1x or m2 if it was announced instead of getting an older intel imac. It's still overpriced somewhat, even second-hand. I would get the current m1 but I just can't work with 16gb of ram.


The 2020 is not overpriced IMO, even against a similar PC (if you install your own Ram).


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## Tom Xander Sage (Jun 8, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> The 2020 is not overpriced IMO, even against a similar PC (if you install your own Ram).


I'm in Australia, so it's a bit more expensive.






I can get a second hand 2018 Imac pro for around that price..
Perhaps a better option is to wait for the m1x/m2 models later this year...
Unfortunately, I've sold my PC already.. Well, picking up in a few days.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 8, 2021)

Art1san said:


> I'm in Australia, so it's a bit more expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’s pricey down there! If you went with 8GB Ram and a 1TB drive, it would drop quite a bit.


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## Tom Xander Sage (Jun 8, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> That’s pricey down there! If you went with 8GB Ram and a 1TB drive, it would drop quite a bit.


Yeah we get hammered by Apple and US items...
It's still almost 5k though plus ram will cost another $700 I'm guessing from OWC plus thunderbolt dock for ssd's.

Anyway, it is what it is. I'll keep looking around.
Appreciate the advice.


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## rnb_2 (Jun 8, 2021)

Art1san said:


> Yeah we get hammered by Apple and US items...
> It's still almost 5k though plus ram will cost another $700 I'm guessing from OWC plus thunderbolt dock for ssd's.
> 
> Anyway, it is what it is. I'll keep looking around.
> Appreciate the advice.



You don't need to upgrade the GPU for music - the base is more than fine, and saves you another $450. Sample libraries don't need the fastest SSDs, so take a look at 2.5" SSDs over USB-C for external storage of samples, as pricing hasn't spiked on 2.5" drives as much as it has on NVMe drives.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Jun 8, 2021)

Somewhat off topic, but I’ve been having horrible kernel panic issues with my 2020 iMac - crashes a lot. Apple Geniuses say my OWC RAM is the culprit, OWC is kind of giving me the runaround. Still trying to get to the bottom of it. Going to try another brand of RAM when it comes this week, at the suggestion of a couple forum members. I’m on my phone so it’s tricky to link to, but if you search the forum the thread will come up. Just a heads up.


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## rnb_2 (Jun 8, 2021)

Jeremy Gillam said:


> Somewhat off topic, but I’ve been having horrible kernel panic issues with my 2020 iMac - crashes a lot. Apple Geniuses say my OWC RAM is the culprit, OWC is kind of giving me the runaround. Still trying to get to the bottom of it. Going to try another brand of RAM when it comes this week, at the suggestion of a couple forum members. I’m on my phone so it’s tricky to link to, but if you search the forum the thread will come up. Just a heads up.


Sorry to hear this is still going on. What brand RAM do you have on the way? Curious to see if that fixes the issue, and if so, hopefully OWC will come around (I've had generally great support from them in the past, so 🤞).


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## Tom Xander Sage (Jun 8, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> You don't need to upgrade the GPU for music - the base is more than fine, and saves you another $450. Sample libraries don't need the fastest SSDs, so take a look at 2.5" SSDs over USB-C for external storage of samples, as pricing hasn't spiked on 2.5" drives as much as it has on NVMe drives.


Thanks mate. I already have 2 x 2tb crusial ssd's that I removed from the PC before it gets picked up. All I need is a thunderbolt fan-less double enclosure.

In regards to the GPU, yeah you're right but I do some video editing sometimes. However, I've sure the base model GPU will suffice.


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## Tom Xander Sage (Jun 8, 2021)

Jeremy Gillam said:


> Somewhat off topic, but I’ve been having horrible kernel panic issues with my 2020 iMac - crashes a lot. Apple Geniuses say my OWC RAM is the culprit, OWC is kind of giving me the runaround. Still trying to get to the bottom of it. Going to try another brand of RAM when it comes this week, at the suggestion of a couple forum members. I’m on my phone so it’s tricky to link to, but if you search the forum the thread will come up. Just a heads up.


Thanks for the info. Hope it gest sorted out soon. I would hate to end up back on the mac and then start experiencing problems. Already wasted too much time on this PC setup etc. Good luck with it.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Jun 8, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> Sorry to hear this is still going on. What brand RAM do you have on the way? Curious to see if that fixes the issue, and if so, hopefully OWC will come around (I've had generally great support from them in the past, so 🤞).


It took me a while to get it in to Apple and then they sent me home without a resolution. I shouldn’t knock OWC too hard, but everyone has me running endless diagnostics with no clear results so it’s frustrating. The incoming RAM is Timetec. I wanted Crucial but it’s sold out everywhere I looked so I went for whatever I could find on Amazon. I’ll update the other thread when I get to the bottom of it all…


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## rnb_2 (Jun 8, 2021)

Art1san said:


> Thanks mate. I already have 2 x 2tb crusial ssd's that I removed from the PC before it gets picked up. All I need is a thunderbolt fan-less double enclosure.
> 
> In regards to the GPU, yeah you're right but I do some video editing sometimes. However, I've sure the base model GPU will suffice.


Are the SSDs 2.5" or NVMe? Either way, dual Thunderbolt enclosures aren't the easiest to find - there's only one NVMe that I've found (search for Netstor), and I haven't found a 2-bay 2.5" Thunderbolt 3 enclosure. For 2.5" drives, your best bet is probably the OWC Mercury Elite Pro Dual Mini USB-C enclosure - it's fanless and bus-powered.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 9, 2021)

Art1san said:


> All I need is a thunderbolt fan-less double enclosure.


You don’t even need that. I’m just using $15 enclosures for my SSD’s, connected to USB3 on the iMac....more than fast enough.


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## Tom Xander Sage (Jun 9, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> You don’t even need that. I’m just using $15 enclosures for my SSD’s, connected to USB3 on the iMac....more than fast enough.


Yeah cheers I might do the same. I saw someone talking about a dual fan-less thunderbolt enclosure here somewhere hence why I mentioned it.


Yeah they are both SSDs. Not looking forward to moving 4tb of libraries to another drive, formatting them for the mac and then moving the libraries back. Actually, I never thought if the library files that where downloaded whilst on windows will work if simply moved to a mac formatted ssd...

Also,

Decided to look for a second hand imac in the interim and just found a decent one. This person is local and I think it will suffice.

She said it's been hardly used and it looks like a family computer based on pictures.. I just don't understand why it would have 64gb of ram in there.. Most likely Apple ram too.


Should run well enough though.


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## rnb_2 (Jun 9, 2021)

Art1san said:


> Yeah they are both SSDs. Not looking forward to moving 4tb of libraries to another drive, formatting them for the mac and then moving the libraries back. Actually, I never thought if the library files that where downloaded whilst on windows will work if simply moved to a mac formatted ssd...


That iMac should be a good interim solution for you - congratulations on the local find!

I think the library files should transfer over in most (if not all) cases - the data should be the same across Mac/Windows. You could transfer one 2TB SSD to another drive, format that SSD as APFS, copy the 2nd SSD to it, reformat the 2nd SSD to APFS, and transfer the first SSD's data to that.


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