# So . . . how'd you like it???



## Mike Greene (May 3, 2006)

Alternate title: Clients Don't Got No Manners

I got a rush gig yesterday afternoon. Deadline is today at noon, but they wanted to hear some samples this morning at 9:00. The noon deadline is probably a lie, even though these guys have worked with me enough to know they don't have to give me fake deadlines to get me to finish on time. I'll bet this really needs to be done by 3 or 4 this afternoon.

So I worked like a maniac until late last night and got here early this morning. By 9:00 I called the client (could only speak to an assistant) and e-mailed them 16 different versions (it's only a 10-second piece) with the usual note, "call me to let me know what you think."

As I'm sure you've guessed, two hours later I ain't heard nothin'. Did they love one of the demos enough to use it as is? Or did they hear all 16 demos, have horrified looks on their faces, and madly start thinking what other composers they know who can work REALLY fast.

Either one of those possibilities and I could take a nap or even get back to working on this other project I had to delay for this. (We all know "nap" is going to win that contest.) 

But unfortunately, there's a third possibility: they want me to make changes to one or more of the demos. So I have to sit here and wait. Politically, I've learned there's a right amount of time to wait before calling. I guess it's about now . . . <sigh> This is so annoying. But so typical.

- Mike Greene


----------



## Ed (May 3, 2006)

enjoyable story


----------



## linwood (May 3, 2006)

Mike,
This is a good starting point. I think if you were to up the beat and hold back the rhythm a bit, it will work better.

Sincerely,

The Client


----------



## Mike Greene (May 3, 2006)

Ed @ Wed May 03 said:


> enjoyable story


Enjoyable for YOU maybe!!! :mrgreen: 



linwood @ Wed May 03 said:


> Mike,
> This is a good starting point. I think if you were to up the beat and hold back the rhythm a bit, it will work better.
> 
> Sincerely,
> ...


Oooooh linwood, you're a mean one! :mrgreen: 

I just got off the phone with the client and of course the first thing he says is that he was just about to call me. They like 4 of the pieces and are deciding which one(s) I'll need to continue on. At least I'm not fired.

It's 11:25 right now, so see what I mean about the noon deadline being fake?

- Mike greene


----------



## linwood (May 3, 2006)

Just teasing you, Mike. I'm doing tons of "mom and pop" retail jingles for a living. Single market radio mostly. I'm not even too sure if it's composing or not. Anyway..I called the client to play it for him over the phone and to get an approval and after I played it for him a few times he asks.." Are there any sharps or flats in it? I've been told that I don't want any sharps or flats in my jingle." I replied, "nope..no sharps or flats in this baby." He says.." well ok. Let's run with it!"


----------



## Mike Greene (May 3, 2006)

I knew you were teasing! I thought it was funny! :mrgreen: 

"No sharps or flats." That's a classic! My biggest worry is when a client knows (or heard) a little about music. That's when they feel the need to get into ridiculous stuff like that.

Once I had a client who insisted I put a snare drum playing 16th notes through the entire piece. It took me about 10 minutes of baffling conversation with her to finally figure out she though a "hi hat" was called a "snare drum."

For those keeping score, it's now 12:08 and I'm still waiting.

- Mike Greene


----------



## gravehill (May 3, 2006)

linwood @ Wed May 03 said:


> J" Are there any sharps or flats in it? I've been told that I don't want any sharps or flats in my jingle." I replied, "nope..no sharps or flats in this baby." He says.." well ok. Let's run with it!"



You might want to post this in the EIS forum! :mrgreen:


----------



## wonshu (May 3, 2006)

Funny, I've turned in 8 demos for a soundlogo and was supposed to get a call today. Wrote a couple of emails and got the response that the person in charge is just too busy with other projects...

So here I am too not knowing if I'm fired or if they're using the demos to show to their client.

I hate this! I hope I'm not gonna be like that should I be in that position.

Cheers
Hans


----------



## Thonex (May 3, 2006)

Interesting thread.... sounds like every commercial or corporate logo give I've ever had to score. :smile: 

I now deliver at the dead-line... but on time... even if I finish 3 days earlier or 3 minutes earlier.

And I really hate it when they play the arbitrary deadline game. :twisted: 

Good luck... you'll get the gig... especially if it's one that will mess up your current schedule.... it always works that way :wink: 


Cheers,

T


----------



## Ed (May 3, 2006)

wonshu @ Wed May 03 said:


> Funny, I've turned in 8 demos for a soundlogo and was supposed to get a call today. Wrote a couple of emails and got the response that the person in charge is just too busy with other projects...
> 
> So here I am too not knowing if I'm fired or if they're using the demos to show to their client.
> 
> ...



Cant you guys put something in your contract that will stop these people messing you around?


----------



## wonshu (May 3, 2006)

How do you deal with it? And at what point in your career are you?

I'm fairly at the beginning starting to see a little light at the end of the tunnel, I don't want to kill that little flower. But on the other hand maybe I'm getting more respect by demanding clear parameters.

Hmmm


----------



## Mike Greene (May 3, 2006)

Ed @ Wed May 03 said:


> Cant you guys put something in your contract that will stop these people messing you around?


Maybe, but then you'd seem a little less friendly and easy going. My opinion is that clients' main factor in determining who they'll hire is how easy that person is to work with. Even more of a factor than talent. At least in the low budget world.

So I'm reluctant to flex my muscles and insist on much . . . and I get treated accordingly! :mrgreen: But I dare say I get paid well for it.

By the way, it's 3:20 and still no call. I already took my nap, so no complaints here. Just business as usual.

At this point, I'll wait until tomorrow to call the client. No way I call them this afternoon. You see, chances are good there are some slight changes he'd like me to make. Not big enough changes that he'll bother to pick up the phone, but if I call him, well, I just took away that step for him, so he's gonna go ahead and ask for those extra changes. Yeah, I best wait til tomorrow after the thing's been dubbed and shipped off!  

- Mike Greene


----------



## kid-surf (May 3, 2006)

> At least I'm not fired.




Ha! :mrgreen: 


You gotta love this dance, eh? Never quite know what they're thinking.... (sometimes til you get fired. :lol: ) But I'm sure that's not the case here.... 

...wait, not trying to be a jinx ... where's the erase button. Oh well, I'm knocking on wood, so you're totally fine. :D  

Hopefully they call today... so you can go get something to eat, or nap! :D


----------



## fictionmusic (May 3, 2006)

Mike Greene said"My opinion is that clients' main factor in determining who they'll hire is how easy that person is to work with. Even more of a factor than talent. At least in the low budget world. "

Not sure what you mean by low budget (or actually big budget I guess), but I think what you say here is true right across the board. All things being equal (quality of production, musical talent etc.) most clients are going to go with the person who is flexible and easy to deal with.
Especially in broadcast work, the ability to work around the clock to accomodate last minute edits etc. is crucial if it is going to make it to its airdate on time. Someone who has too many conditions is just adding more tension to an already stressful process.


----------



## midphase (May 3, 2006)

I think one of the key things that Mike said is that he gets paid well for providing such a 24/7 type of service. 

Don't let one of those el cheapo "got no money for music" ever boss you around....actually never mind....go right ahead....see how long it takes for composers to drop off the map and go find some respect elsewhere.


----------



## fitch (May 3, 2006)

jeez Mike, sounds like you are being ultra polite with them .. good on you for keeping your cool about it .


glad you walked away for a while .. that was probably the best thing to do :D ... for your sanity :D


----------



## wonshu (May 3, 2006)

Good points Gamalataki


----------



## kid-surf (May 4, 2006)

True..... I was thinking the same thing about 16 versions. 3 seems like the perfect number. The 3rd one is the one that sets the other two apart.

16 is almost a sea of choices...


----------



## Mike Greene (May 4, 2006)

I agree with you guys. Normally I do 3 (or fewer) versions.

This particular gig is for a network ID, though. My client is a production company. The network is their client. Neither knows what they want . . . not even whether they want a sound design ID or a melody ID or whatever. It's one of those, "we'll know it when we hear it" situations.

I actually did about 25 versions (admittedly, some were just "recycled" from previous projects' rejected demos.) Of those, 16 seemed to me to have a legitimate shot. Yesterday morning, my client picked 4 and passed those on to the network. That's the last I've heard incidentally.

All 16 versions were completely different from each other. Some had vocals, a couple were orchestral, a few were sound design (though most had sound design elements at the tops and bottoms) and there were funk, rock, atmospheric, brassy and other musical styles represented.

Network IDs are weird gigs. They generally just fall in your lap out of pure luck. A graphics house gets the gig to do the visuals and music is an afterthought. The people at the network doing this are not the same as the guys involved with producing shows. So they don't know any composers. The graphics house says they have a guy (little old me) and that's that. I magically get the gig of writing the network ID. the IDs for Sony Pictures and Telemundo happened exactly this way for me.

Unless!!! If on the very first go around of music, they don't hear something they like, all of a sudden, MY gig turns into, "Gosh, maybe we should make some phone calls to see if anyone else could give us some demos." Before you know it, they find out Network IDs are very profitable for composers, so now all demos are unpaid and there's 10 big name guys competing with me!

So my goal is to make sure they're thinking "Mike Greene's got us covered. No need to go elsewhere."

So they get 16 demos. :mrgreen: 

- Mike Greene


----------



## wonshu (May 4, 2006)

Hey Mike,

funny, I'm dealing with the exact same situation except it's not a network but a global company... but the agency has no clue and were just like: oh business is good, why not get a soundlogo.

You have to turn in a lot of options for these types of situations I think.

Cheers
Hans


----------



## Mike Greene (May 4, 2006)

Hey Hans, why don't you make your life a little easier and just buy 15 demos from me? (Hopefully all 16 won't be available :lol: )

- Mike Greene


----------



## wonshu (May 4, 2006)

L - O - L

Very nice idea indeed


----------



## kid-surf (May 4, 2006)

ID ---- gotcha... different sit.

I'm sure one of them is right. Unless they're just stupid. :mrgreen:


----------



## gamalataki (May 4, 2006)

Mike Greene @ Thu May 04 said:


> Network IDs are weird gigs.
> 
> - Mike Greene



Well, never discount the "throw 16 versions at them, because they're bound to like something," strategy. Especially since they didn't give you any clues to build on and it's a network ID gig. Obviously, Mike Greene has it covered.
My two cents was just to show the other side of the coin.......worth every penny too
At least they didn't come back with, "we like the beginning of version 9 and the end of version 3 and the middle of the funk and orchestral versions.....could you give us another 16 versions blending just those elements.....oh and we need them tomorrow morning......for real this time." :mrgreen:


----------



## linwood (Jun 14, 2006)

I was on a conference call yesterday with an account executive and someone from an ad agency. We were discussing the music direction that I am to take when I produce the music for their client. Of course, I'm not allowed to talk to the actual client.( Why is that sometimes....they don't want me to talk to the client?? That's just so stupid, it seems to me.) Anyway they tell me: we want something hip hop, but not urban. Something classy. Something like the song "When Doves Cry" by Prince, but with a voice like Barry White.
I kid you not........


----------



## Niah (Jun 14, 2006)

linwood @ Wed Jun 14 said:


> Anyway they tell me: we want something hip hop, but not urban. Something classy. Something like the song "When Doves Cry" by Prince, but with a voice like Barry White.
> I kid you not........



:lol:


----------



## Mike Greene (Jun 14, 2006)

Linwood, what do you want to bet that when all is said and done, it will be a country song with female vocals. :lol: 

Update on the Logo: They STILL haven't made a decision, although they did choose one to use "temporarily." I got that phone call yesterday.

- Mike Greene


----------



## Journeyman (Jun 14, 2006)

Linwood,

Ya gotta let us know what the end result turns out to be!


----------



## linwood (Jun 14, 2006)

I kinda know what will happen: That idea ain't gonna fly, but I'll probably have to do the first demo that way. This is for a chamber of commerce, so I know when they play it for the committee of guys that look like the dudes in the box seats in a muppet movie, they're going to hate it. Of course then it was all my idea and the agency will act as if they had nothing to do with that direction. The client wont wanna work with me since I was so far off the mark doing a non urban hip hop version of When Doves Cry with Barry White on vocals and singing about how bad and phat this city is. Word of this demo will spread through the industry like a cancer. I'll be finished. The ad agency wont even send the demo money because I lost them the acct. Now I can't buy a gig. Linda leaves me. I lose the house and Blumberg wont cash my checks or take my call. I'm looking like Steve Martin at the end of the Jerk. I'm done. It's gonna blow....


----------



## José Herring (Jun 14, 2006)

linwood @ Wed Jun 14 said:


> I kinda know what will happen: That idea ain't gonna fly, but I'll probably have to do the first demo that way. This is for a chamber of commerce, so I know when they play it for the committee of guys that look like the dudes in the box seats in a muppet movie, they're going to hate it. Of course then it was all my idea and the agency will act as if they had nothing to do with that direction. The client wont wanna work with me since I was so far off the mark doing a non urban hip hop version of When Doves Cry with Barry White on vocals and singing about how bad and phat this city is. Word of this demo will spread through the industry like a cancer. I'll be finished. The ad agency wont even send the demo money because I lost them the acct. Now I can't buy a gig. Linda leaves me. I lose the house and Blumberg wont cash my checks or take my call. I'm looking like Steve Martin at the end of the Jerk. I'm done. It's gonna blow....



Always do the music that you think fits the best. Take into account what they say but remember that you're livin' in Vegas. What's hip now in Vegas? Then do what you think is best. If you fall flat on your ass you'll go down defending your music to the end. But if you feel like you're doing crap then when the shit hits the fan(and it always does) you won't even be able to stand up for yourself because you'll know that deep down you didn't do your best.

Trust me I've been there. The only job I've ever lost was because I listen to what "they" wanted rather than doing what I though was best for the project. In the end they went with somebody who gave them what I originally thought would work best. And, when they started to point figures at me I didn't even stand a chance. 'cause I knew deep down that it wasn't my best work and that I didn't do what I thought was right.

Always stick to what you think is right. In the end, even if they don't take it, if it's hot they'll give you the chance to modify it, and usually by that time they'll have a better understanding of what's wanted.

Jose


----------



## Mike Greene (Jun 15, 2006)

linwood @ Wed Jun 14 said:


> . . . committee of guys that look like the dudes in the box seats in a muppet movie, . . .


Great post! :lol: I especially like that Muppet line.

The drag about this gig is since there's vocals, you can't just easily pop off an extra demo, so that when they reject demo A, you pop out the CD with "Here's another idea I had."

- Mike Greene


----------

