# Analogue warming options - Empirical Labs Fatso, etc - anyone use one?



## jc5 (Apr 3, 2008)

Its rather pricey.. but from the sounds of it it seems that the Empirical Labs Fatso could be a solution for those acidic sounding string samples.. trouble is... there doesn't seem to be anyway to hear one in action online, and despite having access to some well stocked music stores, I can't for the life of me find such an esoteric unit in person.. I'm afraid getting one on faith just won't do.  

Does anyone have one who can comment?

And heading in the opposite direction of the pricing spectrum we have... the Behringer T1953 Tube Ultragain.. yes, I know... its Behringer.. and is touted as a mic pre-amp - though it is also intended to serve the purpose of hardware tube warming through its balanced 1/4" inputs.. apparently for the low price this is surprisingly good, and if one tosses the included tubes and puts in some fancier ones it becomes a rather nice unit all around, even as a mic pre... this option has the advantage of actually being affordable right now, and for the 100 odd dollars it costs, worth a somewhat blinder risk.  

Anyone tried one of these? Would I even achieve the results I'm after with this type of equipment?


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## José Herring (Apr 3, 2008)

Hi JC5,

A while back we had a great discussion about fattening up sounds:

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... hlight=urs

I've found since then that there's really no one solution for everything and that just slapping something across the master buss really didn't lead to great results.

There are several options as far as plugs go. Waves ssl4000 has a great buss compressor that used with channel compressors really fattens up a sound and glues the mix. 

Using regular guitar distortion plug on a send can also work really well. Espeically on more aggressive tracks, but you have to be careful not to over do it.

Also using Izotope Ozone you can get some great results either as a mastering compressor or if you set it up right it can work as a great two stage or parallel compressor. It's so good that it's only just a tad behind Waves ssl4000 plugs. Also the guys at Izotope told me that Ozone was modeled after a several different analog pieces.

Of course there are may others.

best,

Jose


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## jc5 (Apr 3, 2008)

josejherring @ Thu Apr 03 said:


> Hi JC5,
> 
> A while back we had a great discussion about fattening up sounds:
> 
> ...



Hi Jose,
and thanks for replying!  

I actually was a keen follower of that thread (its where I heard about the Fatso in the first place) and have since managed to try most of the options discussed there. The Waves and Izoptope plugins certainly ranked high in my tests, and I also had a particular liking for the URS set.

Most of those plugins really did a fine job of shaping the sound - though I'm still not satisfied with what I can do with my strings.. the limitations of sampled string sound along with the artefacting of the digital domain still leave them the most difficult section to really pull off with the kind of sound I long for.. that horrible shrillness.. is there no escape?  

Recently I did some experiments with some more traditional hardware, and was surprised by the difference it produced... hence my search continues...


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## re-peat (Apr 3, 2008)

JC5,

If you can wait a few more months: the Fatso will, later this year, be released as a plòF   vdF   veF   vfF   vgF   vhF   viF   vjF   vkF   vlF   vmF   vnF   voF   vpF   vqF   vrF   vsF   vtF   vuF   vvF   vwF   vxF   vyF   vzF   v{F   v|F   v}F   v~F   vF   v€F   vF   v‚F   vƒF   v„F   v…F   v†F   v‡F   vˆF   v‰F   vŠF   v‹F   vŒF   vF   vŽFž   vFž   vFž   v‘Fž   v’Fž   v“Fž   v”Fž   v•Fž   v–Fž   v—Fž   v˜Fž   v™Fž   všFž   v›Fž   vœFŸ   vFŸ   vžFŸ   vŸFŸ   v FŸ   v¡FŸ   v¢FŸ   v£FŸ   v¤FŸ   v¥FŸ   v¦FŸ   v§FŸ   v¨FŸ   v©FŸ   vªFŸ   v«FŸ   v¬FŸ   v­FŸ   v®FŸ   v¯FŸ   v°


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## synthetic (Apr 3, 2008)

I've been using Sonnox Inflator across the mix buss lately. Very nice sound. 

I heard the Fatso at AES and it sounded amazing to me.


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## Frederick Russ (Apr 3, 2008)

Sonnox Inflator and PSP Mix Saturator can do what FATSO can somewhat. Also, there is a very cool emulation of the EL8 in Focusrite LiquidMix.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 4, 2008)

On my master out, I use http://store.kagi.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?storeID=6FEGJ_LIVE&& (AirWindows) (Mac-only, sorry) plug-ins like IronOxide (tape sim) + Channel (mixer sim) + a touch of Waves L2. Fattens nicely. 8)


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## Bruce Richardson (Apr 4, 2008)

I have been in this business over 25 years, and I can tell you for absolute fact that at any given time there will be a new device designed to strap across your outputs guaranteed to give you that perfect polished sound you've always wanted but never knew quite how to get.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 4, 2008)

You're right again, Bruce. But you have to admit... these babies have worked their fattening magic on mixes for more than 25 yrs! Guaranteed to make your strings sweet, your brass rich - I give you the MasterAudionics Eclair Mastering Suite for Pro Tools :


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 4, 2008)

Picking up the ball Bruce tossed and going a different direction, you have to think about what parameters there are for these devices to affect in order to provide spurious artifact phat analog warmth punchy true old school tape saturation functionality.

One of them is density, which as Jose says, you get from compression. Density comes from bringing up lower-level material in the mix, and compression lets you do that by limiting the ceiling (unless you're using a bottom-up compressor, which works differently). Tape compression shaves the transients, which produces a really buttery sound in the right application.

The other parameter is distortion, and the right kind in the right freqs can sound really good. Ozone has a multiband exciter, for example.

And the other other parameter is simply EQ. Filtering the harsh freqs (1-8k?) and boosting the air (9k+?) can give a lot of that perfect polished sound.

There's also "tube warmth." One of the first things I discovered from my Millennia channel strips, which let you select tube or solid-state paths for the mic preamp and EQ (independently), is that the solid-state setting sounds every bit as "warm" as the tube setting. The tube paths absolutely don't do that woofy, muffled thing people think tubes do. Instead they have a silky smooth high end, in fact the stock tubes sound very similar to the solid-state paths. I now have exotic Telefunken flat plate tubes in there, and they do something else that's hard to describe because it's non-linear.

But the "tube warmth" effect people are talking about is just filtering and distortion.


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## José Herring (Apr 4, 2008)

I've just never had any convincing success what so ever by putting much across the master buss. I wish you guys would tell me what you're doing. I put a little compression to "glue" the mix together but that's about it.

I get better results by applying different processing for individual groups. Using EQ, compression, reverb, distortion, ect.. mostly aas send devises. And, by applying low, high or bandpass filters at the patch or as inserts on a channel.

But, slapping something across the master buss as a "cure all" sweetener just never seems to work for me. Though I know a lot of mix guys that do just that and get good results.

Jose


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## StrangeCat (Apr 4, 2008)

Fatso for UAD I look forward to buying that! 
I would through it across the master buss for electronica styles, jpop styles, and that's it. Anything else and it's not happening. I guess it depends on the kind of sound you want and the style you are doing. Though I think your just better off mixing with 88rs Neve. Lot of people like the VCA Vu and the Neve 33609 for that Glue sound.
I still like the Pultec Pro too!

I dont' think there are any rules if it sounds good to you use it and go for it. If you use a little bit of this and little bit of tha,t well that can go a long way in a mix!

I love Ohmcide for saturation and am waiting for Soundtoys VST version of Filter Freak!


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## sonomusic (Apr 4, 2008)

You may want to look at VariSaturator from Voxengo. It's Mac and PC (32-bit and 64-bit). A lot like Inflator. I actually liked it better. You can demo it, too.

Brian


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## wqaxsz (Apr 10, 2008)

Hi,

in this thread from another forum
you can listen to different outboard devices 
including a fatso
to "warm" or change your audio files.

post 742 to download the files:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/103897-anamod-ats-1-tape-simulator-25.html

post 793 for the answers:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/103897-anamod-ats-1-tape-simulator-27.html

regards.

Laurent


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Apr 10, 2008)

Slightly off topic maybe...

I am experimenting with making early reflections using raytracing. I am looking for a 100% "wet" sound as it arrives at the location of the "receiver". As I can see from the impulse wave form at that position the "direct" sound is already nicely EQ-ed: a simple echo or reproduction of the original sound would be displayed as a sharp spike, but my first sound is already a nice bunch of "digital filters" (i.e. typical form of peaks and valleys). What's more important, the oringal dry sound is completely put backwards and has a nice, warmed-up sound.

This approach is definitely going to be part of my mixing environment!

I am currently playing with Impulse Modeler, but will look for more advanced, true 3D tools (although IM can really produce realistic sounds, much much better than the TrueVerb ERs I have been using).

Cheers,

Peter


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## José Herring (Apr 10, 2008)

Are you planning on designing and releasing a new product Peter?  

Have you used Ray Space before? Is this something that could do what you're doing?


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## Bruce Richardson (Apr 10, 2008)

Peter Roos @ Thu Apr 10 said:


> I am currently playing with Impulse Modeler, but will look for more advanced, true 3D tools (although IM can really produce realistic sounds, much much better than the TrueVerb ERs I have been using).



You can make wonderful mixing tools with Impulse Modeler, that's for sure. Even though it is not fully "3D," I don't really think that's so valuable unless you're trying to emulate specific spaces.

I'm sure Peter has already discovered this, but IM sounds extremely smooth if you carefully go through all the settings, and be sure to use the very highest resolution in every place. One of the less obvious settings is the point at which the software ceases to trace reflections. I think the default is -60. I use a setting of -120 for that parameter, I believe, and the results are striking.

I also don't "randomize" the player position output angles. I think it's much more accurate and realistic to be specific, and to find the output angles which sound the best.

One of my IM tricks is to create massive bass traps for the corners, using 100% absorptive walls. That really helps smooth out the room response. IM is one of my favorite tools.

I guess I need to check out Ray Space, though...never heard of it till now, thanks.

B.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Apr 10, 2008)

Bruce Richardson @ Thu Apr 10 said:


> One of my IM tricks is to create massive bass traps for the corners, using 100% absorptive walls. That really helps smooth out the room response. IM is one of my favorite tools.
> B.



Lol, Bruce, that's exactly what I started with: a layout of an assymetrical scoring stage (based on measures and photos from Todd-AO) and then I added bass traps in the cornes, difractors, etc. 

I choose the parameters for the basic wall material on the final result. This approach immediately gave me interesting results. Then it was time to experiment with the emitter cones and direction (for horns, for instance). Nice to play with!

Indeed you need to (ultimately) use the best settings (rays until -120 dB e.g.) and max number of rays, but it is also very instructive to look at the lowest number of rays (100) and the resulting spike patterns.

My main problem with IM is the control over where the first DS pattern (should) arrive. Although the results often do make sense (and I even can see a short delay between the L-R mics, for instance), I also often see pre echos that shouldn't be there. Until now I got the best results with a Decca Tree emulation and some closer mics (into a multichannel IR file) and then offsetting the IRs from the closer mic to match the front of the Decca Tree).

I don't care for RaySpace, it does not even get close to Waves TrueVerb. IM is much much more accurate.

Cheers!


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Apr 11, 2008)

josejherring @ Thu Apr 10 said:


> Are you planning on designing and releasing a new product Peter?
> 
> Have you used Ray Space before? Is this something that could do what you're doing?



Hi Jose!

Not, not seriously thinking about a new library. The amount of effort does not get paid back, unfortunately, so financially I'm better off with finding a balance between my software design projects and an acceptable amount of free time for music and playing with toys like I'm doing now. (I'm now redesigning an important website from the Dutch Tax collection bureau, so I'm more or less working to get my money back from them :D )

As said above, I have RaySpace and played a bit with it last week, but I don't find it a serious tool. Metallic tails, a sound that reminds me of much older plugins. IM requires serious thinking, planning and experimenting, but can result in very nice results, like Bruce said.

I also checked the "real" pro tools for pyschoacoustic modeling of real halls, but these are in the range of $ 6000 - 10,000 ... :shock: 

I'm pretty sure that I could create incredible results with them, but these prices are aimed at real pro consultants advising architects and designers of theaters and concert halls and optimizing acoustics.

Maybe I can make an arrangement with a developer from Sweden, but this arrangement would strictly exclude making commercial IRs with her tools.

So for now, it's just playing around and trying to learn more about psychoacoustics (my original education actually was in psychophysics and perception research).

All the best,

Peter


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## Waywyn (Apr 11, 2008)

Just a real quick add ...
I did a whole project with Rayspace and a tiny tad of Wizzoverb back then (but 90% of the reverb comes from Rayspace). You can find those snippets of HCA on my website. It is really hard to adjust but you can get really nice results if you sit down and take your time.


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## ENW (Apr 12, 2008)

The McDSP Analogue Channel isn't terribly expensive ($500.00 US). It helped a lot on some scratchy string samples I used from Colossus. It's still not perfect but much improved.

The plug-in comes with the McDSP AC1 & AC2. Use the bias control on the McDSP AC2. It doesn't seem to "fatten" the sound but it does reduce that scratchiness.

You can download a trial version on the MCDSP web-site.

http://www.mcdsp.com/index.php?option=c ... &Itemid=50

Good Luck.

Eric


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## RickD (Apr 18, 2008)

Have you tried renting one?


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## SvK (Apr 18, 2008)

Concerning Analog Warming:


Analog warming is a process to be performed by the developers of sample libraries during tracking of samples.......

No black box will rescue a poorly recorded sample-library........

Now there are libraries such as Vienna / Westgate, where the samples were close-miked.......That's why they have soo much Hi-Frequency content, and can appear cold.......This does NOT call for a tube-warmer, it calls for an appropriate cut in EQ to give it distance, and that "muddy-fattness" goodness should be provided by the Early Reflection one uses.........BELIEVE ME...that's what fattens sounds....EARLY reflectioons.

SvK


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