# EW Ghostwriter and Darkside, a recycling of old material ?



## woodsdenis (Sep 14, 2015)

According to this it is. I don't have either but it certainly seems there is a similarity in some of the patches if you look at the vid.


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## kurtvanzo (Sep 14, 2015)

Good to know, but the video explains the website never says it's new material. And the seller does have the right to repackage material if they really think they can sell it. I don't like the practice, but it falls short of a scam. You heard the sounds, you like it or you don't (I didn't). On Youtube, the poster of the video stated "Just keeping you aware of what's going on in the sample market."- I think this is only happening at East West, but let me know if I'm wrong. We all know Doug is like many, looking to cut corners and develop many libraries as quickly as possible- he just got caught with his pants down because he goes a bit farther than the rest.


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## FriFlo (Sep 14, 2015)

It IS scam, when they don't clearly mention it to their customers, who might buy multiple libraries and pay twice for the same stuff. I don't know what's wrong with you? Do you defend everything, that is not punishable by law? I don't have these, so I have not been a victim, but I thank the author of this video for being brave to speak out.


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## Jdiggity1 (Sep 15, 2015)

I've bought a few synth libraries from different developers that I'm pretty sure build upon the exact same Sine Wave!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 15, 2015)

Jdiggity1 said:


> I've bought a few synth libraries from different developers that I'm pretty sure build upon the exact same Sine Wave!


 
Come on now. That was a flawed comparison and you know it.


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## woodsdenis (Sep 15, 2015)

A sample library is a set of recordings that has been digitised, it is widely accepted that any new library is a set of new recordings, unless otherwise stated, especially when endorsed by a third party artist. If this the video is correct, it is not illegal, but certainly underhanded, and I would call it a scam.


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## Jdiggity1 (Sep 15, 2015)

Our decision to purchase a library is based on the description, and the demos. You shouldn't expect anything more than what is provided in those two things.
I dont know about you guys, but I have never based a library purchase off the story behind it, or even the recording process. I am buying the *sounds*. I don't care how they got them, if the patches *sound good *than I will want them.

These are highly stylized libraries, not raw recordings. It would be different if i got literally the same *sound* as i already had, like a strings staccato patch or something (but wait, don't Project Sam do this? Or Forest Kingdom II? There are others...)

Is there anybody here that was happy with either of the two mentioned libraries, but is now unhappy with it because of this 'discovery'?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 15, 2015)

In the early days of this forum, a thread like this one would already be 4 pages long. Today, most users don't care because: what counts is 'winning', and Rogers, like Trump, is a winner; they got it for free (pirated); they're not really making or going to make real money from composing (libraries), it will remain a hobby, so they're disconnected from a sense of being in the same boat (the one that feeds your family) with developers.


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## kurtvanzo (Sep 15, 2015)

FriFlo said:


> It IS scam, when they don't clearly mention it to their customers, who might buy multiple libraries and pay twice for the same stuff. I don't know what's wrong with you? Do you defend everything, that is not punishable by law? I don't have these, so I have not been a victim, but I thank the author of this video for being brave to speak out.



I agree that having awareness is great, and I also thank the poster for pointing it out. I don't like East West policies and I don't consider Doug a "winner" just because he makes money. Nick on the other hand has worked hard at some amazing libraries (and saved Doug's ass) so creatively I do consider him an achiever that has excelled. There are reasons the two of them don't see eye to eye, this repackaging silliness might be one of them.

But as golden robot pointed out, if you're smart you buy these things because of the sound, not because of the wording on the webpage or the designer's credits, or because it's "new". It's not implied that any sound designers new library is new samples, in fact there are a number of sample libraries out there based on older samples or, yes, a sine or square wave. So you are really buying because you want to use the sounds and don't want to make them from scratch, not because the samples are new.

But I will agree that marketing it at full price as something built from the ground up that is actually just slightly manipulated content (like an attack knob adjustment) is underhanded. But a scam is when they hand you content that doesn't sound or work as advertised, or when they've lied on the website. Which I don't think is the case. It's a shame they feel the need to manipulate and manufacture products to make sales, but like this post, is will bite them in the end. Should Project Sam or Sample Logic include disclaimers on their product pages because some of their samples in one library show up in others? Maybe, but to what extent it's happening is also important. The poster of the video should be making a list of how many of these patches are made this way (all? Some? Just the few pointed out?) to get a clear picture of how underhanded this is. But I wouldn't put it past Doug if every patch is that way, it's just the way he thinks. So boycott EW. Perhaps when Doug finally runs out of money he'll sell his expensive cars and find a more honest line of work.


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## KEnK (Sep 15, 2015)

A couple of comments from a different angle here...

First, I'll say I'm no EW fan. Simply because I've personally spent too much time not working because of the engine.
Long ago I decided I was done w/ that.

I'm wondering how long this thread will last w/o being deleted or censored in some way.
Seems like less incendiary topics have been swept away.
If it stays as is, cudos to the forum.

The other thing is- I am never interested in pre-processed sound design type libraries.
Simply because I can do that myself and my "processing" invariably fits better in my piece
than some pre-packaged morphing or whatever.
So if people choose to buy such a collection of theoretically unique distortion or reverb,
because they are lazy, don't know how, or haven't the time to turn a few knobs,
what's the problem?

Repackaging?
Have you heard any music lately?
or seen a movie?
or bought anything?

This is happening everywhere.
P.T. Barnum's quote come to mind, "There's a sucker born every minute".
Buyer beware- or at least be aware.
Knowledge is your only defense.
Marx said Capitalism is Theft.
That's how Our System works

my 2¢

k


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## procreative (Sep 15, 2015)

For what its worth I looked at all the demo videos and was not that enamoured by it anyway. However I do remember the initial promo video showed Stephen Wilson "in the studio" playing guitar parts through various FX and Outboard and it being marketed as sounds he had created.

So if indeed most sounds are just re-amped and FXed patches from older EW libraries, thats a bit disingenuous even misleading as even on the demo videos Stephen Wilson seems to indicate he did this or that to get the sounds.

I for one will only look at EW stuff if Nick Phoenix is involved especially after the Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds fiasco, when DP fell out with NP!!

Maybe they should have sold an FX patch preset add-on for owners of Ministry Of Rock etc like Toontrack sell preset packs for Superior or EZMix?


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## ghostnote (Sep 15, 2015)

Thanks for the share. I was about to buy Ghostwriter.


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## Daryl (Sep 15, 2015)

The thought of having to tell my clients when I'm recycling old material fills me with horror. 

D


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## Vlzmusic (Sep 15, 2015)

I won`t disagree with what I saw in that video, but I find it a bit disturbing, since its coming from a person quite involved with other sample developers. Smells "so-so" for my taste.

As for the libs - never liked any of the two. Tried the old one on Terrapack, back in the day, and felt exactly the issue - it feels unoriginal. Tried the GW on the Cloud now, and felt nearly the same - so the actual accusation did nothing to change my view on both


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## Mystic (Sep 15, 2015)

This makes me very glad I never bought this library. It's an underhanded way to go about making a library and reeks of desperation to get a new product out on the site to generate new revenue. There is already no love lost between myself and EW. I still believe they make some really good products which I use in many of my productions but this will certainly make me look a lot harder at what I might purchase from them in the future if this is the way they want to sell products they are passing off subtly as new content with a new content price to match upon release.


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## StatKsn (Sep 15, 2015)

I agree with the last sentence of the video that EW libraries without Quantum Leap / Nick Phoenix and folks - Fab Four, The Dark Side, Ghostwriter etc - are generally mediocre and not on par with the ones by QL. Here are what I noted with those "non QL" libraries:

1. Tad too many bad loop points - audible pops and clicks (especially notable in The Dark Side).

2. Generally doesn't go beyond basic keyswitches, RRs and sustain patches. For example, Ghostwriter lacks release samples when MoR2 has them; no noise samples so not possible to simulate strumming, again MoR2 has tons of noise samples; no auto hammer-on/pull-off, MoR2 has it, etc. The Dark Side is almost sustain patches only, while samples actually have "release sound" after 5s/10s (shouldn't be separated?).

Lack of release/noise samples makes guitar/bass instruments sound like a harp or plucked piano, unless you are going to use those patches as a pad or in a cut-up synth manner with very short release time.

3. Quality of patches varies very wildly within the library; there are a few "deeply sampled" instruments with many articulations and RRs, there are many 2-3 velocity layer x2 RR instruments, there are some one velocity layer no RR instruments... but you can't tell it until you play.

4. Drumkit mappings are not consitent within the library

5. Usually has many duplicated "FX" patches just with ADT enabled, reverb enabled etc. like noted in the video

As EW massively slashes pricing in 50-80% off range, those libraries are not as bad if you get as a part of bundle. If not, I'd rather buy a bunch of recent, deeper guitar/drum VIs or even MoR2 (which is still pretty useful IMO) rather than Ghostwriter, or saturators like NLS/SDRR/Decapitator rather than Fab Four/The Dark Side and plaster them over what I have. You can easily yield same or better result. Just personally speaking.


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## woodsdenis (Sep 15, 2015)

I think this is equivalent to say Spitfire's HZ piano being re eq versions of samples from a previous library of theirs. They would never dream of doing that and I don't think any other well respected dev would. This is not about using already used samples, its about doing it and NOT telling the buyer about it. Huge difference. 
Buying sample libraries is about trust swell as all the other components. They are expensive and bought with no refund. 

SampleLogic/Cinesamples/ProjectSam have all used pre-released material and have been very upfront about it, so the apologists for the alleged EW libraries don't use this as a lame excuse.

Do we really have to be checking the minutia of the release notes now !


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## KEnK (Sep 15, 2015)

woodsdenis said:


> SampleLogic/Cinesamples/ProjectSam have all used pre-released material and have been very upfront about it, so the apologists for the alleged EW libraries don't use this as a lame excuse.


I hope you don't think my commentary puts me in the apologist camp.
I'm no EW fan
It doesn't surprise me.
I'm just saying nobody needs these type of libraries anyway-
and if you buy a bunch of over processed sounds that are more distortion and reverb than sample,
well that's a questionable choice to begin with.
Presets...
No thanks
Just roll yer own

k


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## Jdiggity1 (Sep 15, 2015)

KEnK said:


> I hope you don't think my commentary puts me in the apologist camp.
> k


I think the rubber duck is referring to the Golden Robot.


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## woodsdenis (Sep 15, 2015)

KEnK said:


> I hope you don't think my commentary puts me in the apologist camp.
> I'm no EW fan
> It doesn't surprise me.
> I'm just saying nobody needs these type of libraries anyway-
> ...


No, certainly not.


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## kitekrazy (Sep 16, 2015)

I don't really care for those type of libraries. I find it easier to use loops.


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## Bunford (Sep 17, 2015)

This whole thing seems to surround it being new content. I'm not a fan or hater of any sample company as I just buy and use what I like. Like most normal people, I will listen to demos etc and if I like what I hear I will buy it, not really putting too much weight on it being new material etc. As an example, new processing technology could make many an old recording sound way better, hence why you get so many older albums being remastered and re-released nowadays. Doesn't necessarily make them better, just different, which is something that some people will prefer to the original and some won't.

However, at 35 I have learnt that one should never assume. If you buy and make the assumption it is new material, even though they have not stated or claimed that anywhere, then I don't see they are doing anything wrong and that is entirely your fault for assuming. However, if they are knowingly claiming it is newly recorded material when they know it is not, then yes, that is quite obviously misleading.

Personally though, I just think it is buyer choice and slating a company in public may not be the best approach. For example, I know many sample musicians who would not have bought RA as it is not what they would use in their dark and gritty music. However, even though it may only be recycled samples treated in different ways, they may purchase The Dark Side as the darker and more distorted treatment is what grabs them rather than the newness or location of the originally recorded material.

In short, I think people buy what they like and if you do make assumptions and purchase, then there's nobody to blame but yourself and you should chalk it up to a lesson learnt. But, if companies are intentionally misleading potential customers, then they should clean that up and not pursue that type of behaviour as it is clearly disingenuous and not a positive reflection of the industry.


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## bill45 (Sep 17, 2015)

I thought the ghostwriter drums where from MOR2. 
I mentioned this on the EW forum. They said, the GW drums are new.


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## Ian Dorsch (Sep 17, 2015)

bill45 said:


> I thought the ghostwriter drums where from MOR2.
> I mentioned this on the EW forum. They said, the GW drums are new.



Yeah, IIRC they are supposed to have recorded Marco Minnemann for the Ghostwriter sessions.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 17, 2015)

Bunford said:


> Personally though, I just think it is buyer choice and slating a company in public may not be the best approach.





> In short, I think people buy what they like and if you do make assumptions and purchase, then there's nobody to blame but yourself and you should chalk it up to a lesson learnt.



I find this a bit contradictory. How is a potential buyer supposed to find out about the pros and cons - and especially the cons - if not from others who choose to share their experiences? Most certainly not by listening to audio demos, which to me are of dubious informative value, potentially misleading and more a marketing tool than anything else. I don't feel that EW got "slanted" by the video we saw in this thread.


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## Matt Riley (Sep 17, 2015)

I made one of the demos on the Ghostwriter product page. They had a contest encouraging people to download the trial and make demos. Then you could choose to buy at a discount which I didn't. I did like a lot of the sounds though. I didn't realize that many were recycled which sucks.


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## GhostXb (Sep 19, 2015)

I remember checking this out and I had to do some digging to figure out what it actually was, since it wasn't obvious. While they don't explicitly say it's just mangled samples from previous libraries, I got the sense of what it was, but I wasn't offended, since I figured others would draw the same conclusion.

However, after giving it a second look, I can see how it is misleading in it's marketing strategy. Now, is there a market for this kind of product? Definitely, but how it is currently marketed, and at it's current price, I don't think so. If they dropped the price to something that more accurately reflects the amount of work that went into it, and gave a more accurate description of what it is, then I could see this being a good product.

I don't see any problem with processing samples and selling them. This does require work, and some people can't be bothered to do it them self, and it can be used as a source of inspiration.

In my opinion, the only issue here is honesty.


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## GULL (Sep 20, 2015)

GhostXb said:


> If they dropped the price to something that more accurately reflects the amount of work that went into it,



Never works that way. Demand dictates. This may not be fair but life is not always fair


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## Casiquire (Sep 20, 2015)

Can I just comment on how amusing it is that we're discussing the ethics of releasing something that somebody else recorded under the name "Ghostwriter"? And unless I missed it, how has this not been mentioned yet?

Anyway while it may be a legally ethical decision it's certainly immoral. They've recently rereleased a lot of older libraries with some new touches here and there and they were quite transparent about that.


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## kurtvanzo (Sep 20, 2015)

Casiquire said:


> Can I just comment on how amusing it is that we're discussing the ethics of releasing something that somebody else recorded under the name "Ghostwriter"? And unless I missed it, how has this not been mentioned yet?
> 
> Anyway while it may be a legally ethical decision it's certainly immoral. They've recently rereleased a lot of older libraries with some new touches here and there and they were quite transparent about that.



Having a Ghostwriter for a book or a movie script is common and not considered immoral (do you really think every celebrity that seeks books can write decently? Not at all), so I don't think calling it that name is that funny... Now maybe calling it "The Resampler" would be...

And maybe I'm mistaken, but I haven't seen a rerelease from EW in a long time- in fact I thought they were known for releasing libraries, doing updates for fixes, then rarely ever touching the library again (opting for new releases verses revamping old ones). Which I don't mind because I'm aware of the fact before I buy the library. But that is due to this forum, not sounds online.com. Transparent? Are you talking about the forum that deletes negative comments or the sales page that touts engineer credits and the "soon to be released" Play Pro?


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## prodigalson (Sep 20, 2015)

ProDrummer and Hollywood Orchestral Percussion didn't come out that long ago...


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## kurtvanzo (Sep 21, 2015)

prodigalson said:


> ProDrummer and Hollywood Orchestral Percussion didn't come out that long ago...



"They've recently rereleased a lot of older libraries with some new touches here and there and they were quite transparent about that."

They have released newer libraries, but rereleases of older libraries? I can't think of one.


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## trumpoz (Sep 21, 2015)

The 25th anniversary series - reprogrammed to work with Play.


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## jamwerks (Sep 21, 2015)

In case anyone missed the announcement (+/- 6 months ago), Play Pro is comin'


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## kurtvanzo (Sep 21, 2015)

trumpoz said:


> The 25th anniversary series - reprogrammed to work with Play.



Thanks. I thought there might be one. Glad they are willing to retool some things to work in their own player. Also, yes, Play Pro was mentioned in the last 6 months as being "in the pipeline" with no release date. But it's my understanding it's been in the pipeline for many years (being mentioned by Doug in the past) without a release- so is this really new news? I know a Ford Model A that's been worked on for 40 years, but I don't plan on driving it anytime soon.


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## prodigalson (Sep 21, 2015)

> And maybe I'm mistaken, but I haven't seen a *rerelease* from EW in a long time



Misread that. Thought you wrote "release".


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 21, 2015)

I don't get the criticism of Ghostwriter as being "recycled old stuff." What's wrong with offering a package with a useful variety of sounds from their catalog? 

You don't hear the same criticism of, say, VSL's Special Edition or Sonivox' Muse - or EW's own Goliath, for that matter.

And as far as I know The Dark Side isn't from other libraries.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 21, 2015)

In the case of Ghostwriter, I feel it was advertized as something different and more than it actually is. ProjectSAM clearly state that their Orchestral Essentials are a collection of samples from their bigger libraries. VSL makes it clear that the SEs are the more affordable packages that can be upgraded to their big collections.

Ghostwriter on the other hand ... they even officially called it "Steven Wilson's Ghostwriter" and an installment of some "Masters Series". The promo blurb promises Steven Wilson's most innovative sounds and all this magnificent blah. I don't have the library and I don't know how much of it's material is really simply re-used and somewhat processed, but I'm sure that the expectations that were created were something else. More like Steven Wilson, sitting in his studio, in all his genius and expertise, surrounded by his state-of-the-art gear, creating all these incredible sounds from scratch, and all that. To me, it seems that Wilsons involvement was mainly letting them put his name in the title.

Sure, legally, EW is on the safe side. It's the George Foreman Grill, right? People gotta know themselves if that's a convincing argument. And who knows, perhaps it was really Steven Wilson himself who yanked those guitar samples through a fuzz effect during his coffee break. But you get the point. It may not be "scam", but if the library really is a repackaging for the most part, then it's still a shabby practice and I think it's OK to point that out, because I bet a lot of potential buyers would expect something way more special from the library than it is.


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## woodsdenis (Sep 21, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> And as far as I know The Dark Side isn't from other libraries.



If you look at the vid it clearly is. As many have stated there is nothing wrong with using old material if you are upfront about it and make it clear thats what it is. I can't think of any other dev who has done this in such an underhanded way.


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## ddas (Sep 21, 2015)

I'm not sure of the accuracy of the claims of this video. There are three actual examples given: 

The gamelan example (2:28) sounds fairly different. It's possible they are the same samples with effects, but it's different enough that I can't tell. 

The acoustic guitar examples (3:29) are confusing because the voiceover talks about plagiarism, but doesn't provide sonic proof, then goes on to mix it up by alleging that there are numerous acoustic guitar patches based on the same samples, but it's common for all sample manufacturers to have one pool of samples then create various patches out of them. The voiceover implies they are literally packing extra gigabytes for this, but that's probably not what's happening. That's also a different accusation, separate from the claim that they might originate from other products.

The third example (SW Explosive Drums vs. Stormdrum 2 Earthquake Ensemble at 8:35) does indeed sound like it could be the same patch with post-processing. It's entirely possible that Steven Wilson re-produced these samples to his taste. So this is a bit of a gray area; there is some SW personality in there even if the original samples may have been from another product. 

The voiceover on this video contains many accusations that aren't backed up by evidence. It implies the entire thing (or most of it) is recycled material. But only three examples are provided, and I'm only willing to concede that one of them might be valid, and even then, it might be kosher. If literally the whole thing was ripped from previous products, it's a serious allegation, but the proof of it is not to be found in this video. 

I'm not an EastWest defender at all, but if you're going to make accusations like this, you should provide more proof.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 21, 2015)

And so what if they were the same samples! They're processed and it's a totally different set of sounds.

I dunno. To me this is much ado about nothing.


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## woodsdenis (Sep 22, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> And so what if they were the same samples! They're processed and it's a totally different set of sounds.
> 
> I dunno. To me this is much ado about nothing.


You are of course entitled to your opinion, if that's your take on it let's say you paid for the new HZ piano from Spitfire and then subsequently found out that it was a previous Spitfire library just processed differently, with Spitfire not acknowledging the fact that it wasn't new material. I really don't think most people would find that acceptable. 

As for how accurate the vid is ? The fact that no one from EW including Jay has come on to refute this is surely an indication. Jay any thoughts on this ?


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## procreative (Sep 22, 2015)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> More like Steven Wilson, sitting in his studio, in all his genius and expertise, surrounded by his state-of-the-art gear, creating all these incredible sounds from scratch, and all that. To me, it seems that Wilsons involvement was mainly letting them put his name in the title.



As I said before I distinctly remember seeing a pre-release promo showing Mr Wilson in the East West studio guitar in hand seemingly playing and experimenting with FX pedals and racks.

Here:



So if indeed the actual product is effected samples previously recorded dry, then that is misleading and duplicitous. But maybe its a combination?

For me I decided before this revelation there was not enough variation of content or sounds I could not create myself to justify the price even when discounted, plus Im not big on mega distorted bass guitar or ultra cruddy Nine Inch Nails sounds from a decade ago.

But I do think presenting something as newly recorded is cheeky even if it does not say so expressly in the blurb, surely the onus is the opposite.


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## Chris Hurst (Sep 22, 2015)

I have Ghostwriter via the Composer Cloud and think it is a useful library (I'm also a Steven Wilson fan). Listening to those 3 examples from the video (out of how ever many GB of samples?), I would say that they are indeed the same samples. 

There are definitely examples where they have used the same source material and then applied some different effects post recording to them to arrive at different end result sounds, but maybe listing them as different patches was the only way they could get them to list appropriately in Play. They are essentially a different 'preset' over a DI signal if you take the guitars as an example.

My view is that it probably is a mixture of newly recorded material - the "sigur" guitar patches for example are definitely a guitar played by a bow Sigur Ros style, which I'm not sure is in the Dark Side library? (I layer that in with strings to provide some grit and really like the sound.)

Could it be that Steven has gone through EW's already recorded material and picked out samples he likes and then put his own twist on them?

Either way, it doesn't bother me that it may be reworked material, I just went off whether I liked the sounds (and the fact that I like Steven's work), but can completely see why some people may feel differently about it.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 22, 2015)

woodsdenis said:


> You are of course entitled to your opinion, if that's your take on it let's say you paid for the new HZ piano from Spitfire and then subsequently found out that it was a previous Spitfire library just processed differently, with Spitfire not acknowledging the fact that it wasn't new material. I really don't think most people would find that acceptable.
> 
> As for how accurate the vid is ? The fact that no one from EW including Jay has come on to refute this is surely an indication. Jay any thoughts on this ?



I asked and was told that it was "garbage" and to ignore it. So that is all I have to contribute to the discussion.


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## woodsdenis (Sep 22, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> I asked and was told that it was "garbage" and to ignore it. So that is all I have to contribute to the discussion.


Well there you have it , an intelligent , concise and informative response from EW, which will no doubt put this matter to rest. 

I love the way that instead of actually addressing the question they go straight into attack mode. A response Donald Trump would be proud of. Fantastic stuff.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 22, 2015)

woodsdenis said:


> Well there you have it , an intelligent , concise and informative response from EW, which will no doubt put this matter to rest.
> 
> I love the way that instead of actually addressing the question they go straight into attack mode. A response Donald Trump would be proud of. Fantastic stuff.



Well, remember I was _not_ asked to post that response, it was only a response to me. And maybe I should not have but I didn't want to just ignore the question when it was put directly to me.

But one thing I have finally got through my thick skull is that Guy Rowland's signature is correct, so I now generally limit my battles to things that are not opinions but ones that I know are _empirically_ incorrect. So I will say no more about this.


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## trumpoz (Sep 22, 2015)

woodsdenis said:


> Well there you have it , an intelligent , concise and informative response from EW, which will no doubt put this matter to rest.
> 
> I love the way that instead of actually addressing the question they go straight into attack mode. A response Donald Trump would be proud of. Fantastic stuff.



I've stayed out of opinions on this thread but, really that is a bit much. Jay's post comes across as an employer and employee discussion and not an announcement to the community. It seems that East West doesn't even want to gratify that video with a response. Fair enough I think - the video comes across like a witch-hunt. Given the maker is associated with other sample library developers as a member of beta teams and demo creators..........the whole thing smells.

I've got to stop opening this thread.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 22, 2015)

Okay, I had to watch the video.

It's crap.

EW is right just to ignore this wanker.


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## dpasdernick (Sep 22, 2015)

It's tough to use the old phrase "Buyer Beware" when you can't audition these software libraries in depth. I bought The Dark Side and used it once. The good news as it inspired a pretty cool song but the bad news is I was pretty unimpressed with a lot of the content. The drum kits are OK but the keys and guitars are anemic. 

If it is true that both these libs are recycled samples then yes it is a pretty cheeky thing to do especially, as I said, if you can't evaluate the patches without buying the thing. 

All in all East West came out of the chute like a thoroughbred and now seem like they are moving out to pasture. The new orchestral stuff is nice but the requirements to run it are more than I have CPU and SSD-wise and there's a ton of competition. Ghost Writer and the new drum library do not interest me for a second. I hope they make a comeback.


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## bill45 (Sep 23, 2015)

Ghostwriter is a unique library, regardless weather they recycled samples or not.
I the it was well known that the darkish contained samples from other libraries.
I think it was mentioned in the sos review.Again, you have unique sounds ready to go.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 23, 2015)

dpasdernick said:


> All in all East West came out of the chute like a thoroughbred and now seem like they are moving out to pasture. The new orchestral stuff is nice but the requirements to run it are more than I have CPU and SSD-wise and there's a ton of competition. Ghost Writer and the new drum library do not interest me for a second. I hope they make a comeback.



Once again, not going to debate opinions, you are certainly entitled to yours but a couple of facts:

1. The "ton of competition" for a comparable complete orchestral package cost _so_ _much more_ you could instead upgrade your system. Not saying you should, just that arguably you could.

2. While you may not be interested in ProDrummer, I am told that sales have been robust, greatly exceeded expectations, so the idea that EW needs a developmental "comeback", your lack of interest notwithstanding, has no empirical basis.


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## kurtvanzo (Sep 23, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Once again, not going to debate opinions, you are certainly entitled to yours but a couple of facts:
> 
> 1. The "ton of competition" for a comparable complete orchestral package cost _so_ _much more_ you could instead upgrade your system. Not saying you should, just that arguably you could.
> 
> 2. While you may not be interested in ProDrummer, I am told that sales have been robust, greatly exceeded expectations, so the idea that EW needs a developmental "comeback", your lack of interest notwithstanding, has no empirical basis.



Translate: Thanks for your concern but sales have been exceptional, EW is doing well.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 23, 2015)

kurtvanzo said:


> Translate: Thanks for your concern but sales have been exceptional, EW is doing well.



That works


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## dpasdernick (Sep 23, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> 2. While you may not be interested in ProDrummer, I am told that sales have been robust, greatly exceeded expectations, so the idea that EW needs a developmental "comeback", your lack of interest notwithstanding, has no empirical basis.



My lack of interest may have no empirical basis but it might be of interest to a company like East West who had a devoted customer for many years, who has spent many dollars on their products, who also still spends a ton of money each year on musical software yet hasn't spent a dime with them in 5 years. Not because I have a "hate on" for Doug or Nick (I don't) and not because I think Play sucks (I don't) but only because their products do not interest me in the way they used to.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 23, 2015)

Fine but understand that there are customers who have far more interest in that than orchestral libraries. Anyway, this is what Doug is excited about doing these days.


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## bill45 (Sep 24, 2015)

Pro drummer sounds awesome!


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## dpasdernick (Sep 24, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Fine but understand that there are customers who have far more interest in that than orchestral libraries. Anyway, this is what Doug is excited about doing these days.



I didn't say I am only interested in orchestral libraries. Besides EW Silver and Gold Pro XP I also own RA, Silk, VOP, The Dark Side, Stormdrum 1 & 2, Hardcore Bass, Goliath, Bosendorfer, EW Choirs, Steve Steven Guitars, and Gypsy. Quite a few non-Orchestral EW libs. Maybe Doug will catch my ear with something cool in the near future. I certainly hope so.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 24, 2015)

I hope so too.


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## Casiquire (Sep 25, 2015)

kurtvanzo said:


> Having a Ghostwriter for a book or a movie script is common and not considered immoral (do you really think every celebrity that seeks books can write decently? Not at all), so I don't think calling it that name is that funny... Now maybe calling it "The Resampler" would be...



You don't think hiring an uncredited ghostwriter is immoral? Well there's the problem, we have two different concepts of morality.


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## woodsdenis (Sep 25, 2015)

I think that responses like the video is "garbage" and the the guys a "wanker" (from a mod no less) are fairly childish and diversionary. The video certainly makes some points which deserve clarification. You would think the official response would be more professional and certainly one from a mod would be more adult.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 25, 2015)

woodsdenis said:


> I think that responses like the video is "garbage" and the the guys a "wanker" (from a mod no less) are fairly childish and diversionary. The video certainly makes some points which deserve clarification. You would think the official response would be more professional and certainly one from a mod would be more adult.



There has been no "official response" nor will there be. I merely told people what Doug told me when I asked him. He clearly didn't think it merited a response.


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## woodsdenis (Sep 25, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> There has been no "official response" nor will there be. I merely told people what Doug told me when I asked him. He clearly didn't think it merited a response.


Are you doing a course in semantics Jay? The the only response from EW was it was "garbage", that ok.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 25, 2015)

Words matter. There will be no further comments from EW on this matter, official or non-official. Believe what you choose to believe.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 25, 2015)

Who's being childish, woodsdenis?

You're starting playground fights - ones you don't even realize you lost before you started. I'm stating my opinion as an individual.


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## woodsdenis (Sep 25, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Who's being childish, woodsdenis?
> 
> You're starting playground fights - ones you don't even realize you lost before you started. I'm stating my opinion as an individual.


Grow up


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 25, 2015)

Pot, say hello to kettle


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## woodsdenis (Sep 25, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Pot, say hello to kettle


You are doing a great job at not replying in this thread Jay, Ok attack all you guys want, if posting a video causes so much tension with you and Nick I will bow out. Kinda like an EW tag team going on here, sorta like soundsonline in here now. Enjoy yourselves.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 25, 2015)

I was just joking, note the smiley face. It is too silly to fight over.


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## woodsdenis (Sep 25, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> I was just joking, note the smiley face. It is too silly to fight over.


Words matter.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 25, 2015)

woodsdenis said:


> Words matter.



Touche'. Well played, sir!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 25, 2015)

I'm neither a pot nor a kettle.

Denis, stop trying to piss me off with passive-aggressive crap.



> EW tag team



That's a combination of words that truly doesn't matter. I have no vested interest in EW or any other developer (beyond wanting to see them continue developing great instruments).

If you want to discuss sample libraries, fine. Otherwise, just go home.


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## woodsdenis (Sep 25, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I'm neither a pot nor a kettle.
> 
> Denis, stop trying to piss me off with passive-aggressive crap.
> 
> ...



Er I didn't use the pot /kettle remark, Jay did about me actually, you really should calm down and stop embarrassing yourself at this point.


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## kurtvanzo (Sep 25, 2015)

Casiquire said:


> You don't think hiring an uncredited ghostwriter is immoral? Well there's the problem, we have two different concepts of morality.



No offense, but I think we have two different concepts of reality. Do you believe Hans Zimmer personally writes everything his name is on? Do you believe Steven Speilberg directs every scene of a film his name is on? There are 2nd directors for a reason, because these artists can't do everything in the time allotted, so they need help. Now I never said anything about uncredited- most co-composers or co-directors get credited, just not as composers or directors (2nd director, arranger, orchestrator, "additional music composed by") all these are common practice, but no one calls it ghostwriting. Perhaps many want these jobs (even without credit) in order to have a working relationship with the celebrity, or a good story to tell, or just for the money. But when both sides agree to the terms and are clear about the credits being given, I don't see the moral line being crossed. Morality infers an offense has been made, against who? The audience? If your living in 2015 and think that any composer can race through composing, recording, mixing a film score in a couple of weeks without any help, then your living in a different reality. Enjoy it. ignorance is bliss, and can be fun, but like I said, I live in the LA film industry where it's a different reality.

BTW this is nothing new. David by Michelangelo? Birth of Venus (Venus on the half shell) by Botticelli? Both these artist sketched out ideas and a team of assistants carry out the work, but you don't hear of their names today. How do you define "ghostwriting"? Do you feel Michelangelo was being immoral? Do you as a viewer of the art feel cheated knowing he didn't chip every piece of marble or that Botticelli didn't paint every stroke? Isn't the fact that they supervise and approve everything enough? Does the artwork stand on its own? Good questions.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 25, 2015)

> You don't think hiring an uncredited ghostwriter is immoral?



Not only do I think it's moral, I'm available.


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## Parsifal666 (Oct 2, 2015)

kurtvanzo said:


> No offense, but I think we have two different concepts of reality. Do you believe Hans Zimmer personally writes everything his name is on? Do you believe Steven Speilberg directs every scene of a film his name is on? There are 2nd directors for a reason, because these artists can't do everything in the time allotted, so they need help. Now I never said anything about uncredited- most co-composers or co-directors get credited, just not as composers or directors (2nd director, arranger, orchestrator, "additional music composed by") all these are common practice, but no one calls it ghostwriting. Perhaps many want these jobs (even without credit) in order to have a working relationship with the celebrity, or a good story to tell, or just for the money. But when both sides agree to the terms and are clear about the credits being given, I don't see the moral line being crossed. Morality infers an offense has been made, against who? The audience? If your living in 2015 and think that any composer can race through composing, recording, mixing a film score in a couple of weeks without any help, then your living in a different reality. Enjoy it. ignorance is bliss, and can be fun, but like I said, I live in the LA film industry where it's a different reality.
> 
> BTW this is nothing new. David by Michelangelo? Birth of Venus (Venus on the half shell) by Botticelli? Both these artist sketched out ideas and a team of assistants carry out the work, but you don't hear of their names today. How do you define "ghostwriting"? Do you feel Michelangelo was being immoral? Do you as a viewer of the art feel cheated knowing he didn't chip every piece of marble or that Botticelli didn't paint every stroke? Isn't the fact that they supervise and approve everything enough? Does the artwork stand on its own? Good questions.



I'm a composer who pays the rent (and that's about it) with my music, and I both respect and mostly agree with your general point. Yes, there is plenty of "help" involved in most completed art. However, given the well written post above, I do believe Zimmer _composed_ everything his name is actually on.

I'm just wondering if you're over-emphasizing the (completely valid) distinction between composition and the actual writing/how it comes out in the end (after being filtered through the helpers rightfully mentioned).

Zimmer composed everything he's credited for. If those people who undeniably helped felt that strongly about their contribution, we would have heard their names being mentioned...such a victimization would be too ripe for lawsuits. I know I wouldn't lie down for lack of credit. Michelangelo created what he did, his helpers just helped make it acceptable for the world. That just means they did their job. Michelangelo is the one who suffered the labor pains and childbirth. He was the creator.

I reminds me of Ronnie James Dio when asked about others taking credit for the "Heaven and Hell" song. He asked where were all the other great songs from the people taking credit (Dio at the time had already had success in Blackmore's Rainbow, releasing at least one recognized classic album, Rising).

Forgive me if I presumed too much, or if I'm wrong or just plain overly opinionated. All those possibilities exist.


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## Parsifal666 (Oct 2, 2015)

I also think the person who made the video had a problem with one of the people mentioned therein, and that the video itself was a waste of time for him and an even bigger waste for those choosing to watch it. I have all those libraries, overlap is inevitable. I use Ghostwriter and Dark Side all the time, if Ghostwriter was just a recycle I would have just used that. It isn't. I would venture that Ghostwriter is probably overall a library that should be before Dark Side on a list of to-buy, however both have their separate and distinct charms. Just my useless opinion.


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## Topographic4001 (Jan 15, 2020)

woodsdenis said:


> According to this it is. I don't have either but it certainly seems there is a similarity in some of the patches if you look at the vid.



I was about to buy both Ghostwriter' and Dark Side' until I saw this video. Shame-shame on East West.


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## Leo (Jan 15, 2020)

Topographic4001 said:


> I was about to buy both Ghostwriter' and Dark Side' until I saw this video. Shame-shame on East West.


I have Ghost write lib, truly very nice black box, BUT EMPTY, with ugly sounds.
All EW lib what I brought I uninstalled three years ago, but this special hate the most. 
Only useful is old EWQLS S.Orch in kontakt (impact) version, but this is different story..


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## Fleer (Jan 15, 2020)

I don’t have Ra
I don’t have Goliath
I don’t have Stormdrum
I don’t have Ministry of Rock 
But I have Ghostwriter
... and I like it.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 15, 2020)

I will tell you all a story:

Peter Schwartz was over my house a year or so ago. As most of you know he is a wonderful musician, and MIDI expert. I played him a demo of a new song I had written called “Why Don’t I Feel What I’m Supposed To Feel” which is on my YouTube channel btw.

He listened and said, “That’s very heartfelt.

Then, knowing that I don’t play guitar, he asked “Who’s the guitarist?”

I said, “Me, with EW Ghostwriter,”

So yes, I like Ghostwriter 



I don’t however care much for The Dark Side.


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## bill45 (Jan 16, 2020)

Ghostwriter and darkside are good libraaies. Don't care if samples are from other libraries.
The processing is awesome.the pin piano in ghostwriter!!!


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## bill45 (Jan 16, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I will tell you all a story:
> 
> Peter Schwartz was over my house a year or so ago. As most of you know he is a wonderful musician, and MIDI expert. I played him a demo of a new song I had written called “Why Don’t I Feel What I’m Supposed To Feel” which is on my YouTube channel btw.
> 
> ...



Nice job Jay!!


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## Ashermusic (Jan 16, 2020)

bill45 said:


> Nice job Jay!!



Thanks bill45.


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## bill45 (Jan 18, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Thanks bill45.


you are welcome


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## odod (Nov 1, 2021)

Fleer said:


> I don’t have Ra
> I don’t have Goliath
> I don’t have Stormdrum
> I don’t have Ministry of Rock
> ...


I have RA,
I have Stormdrum 3
I have HOOPUS
I have EW Platinum Choirs
I have Gypsy

but i don't have Ghostwriter ..


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## Fleer (Nov 1, 2021)

You’d like it (if you like Steven Wilson).


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