# VI Composer's Desk - too high for me?



## muk (Apr 28, 2013)

Hello everybody

Wanting to have a desk built to my needs I stumbled upon the VI Composer's Desk:

http://www.virtualinstrumentsmag.com/composersdesk/

It's quite what I wanted - a "normal" working desk with an easy to reach digitalpiano underneath. No need for racks and other studio stuff, just a plain desk with a dp.
However, checking the measurements one thing got me curious. There's some explanation how the piano is at the ideal height for playing, how there's enough space for your legs, the speakers being at ideal distance etc. But one thing is not mentioned with even a single word: the actual height of the tabletop!
So I did some quick calculations, and depending on the dp-model the tabletop will approximately be at 80-82cm height. That's quite high (too high?) compared with the usually recommended 74-76cm. 80-82cm are recommended for people of 195-200cm heigt!

So, does anybody here own the Composer's desk and can comment on this? Is it comfortable/ergonomic to work at for longer periods of time?


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## AlexRuger (Apr 28, 2013)

*Re: VI Composer's Desk - too high?*

I myself haven't used this desk, but I've found that most "factory-made" desks are too high for me. I think building your own from IKEA parts is the way to go. Check out ikeakackers.com for some interesting setups.

Also, I use an ergonomic QWERTY keyboard, so that really causes all sorts of height problems. I'm thinking about trying a stand-up desk next...


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## muk (Apr 28, 2013)

It's a problem with weighted controllers. They are around 12-15cm high, so either you have only 60cm for your legs, or the tabletop gets pretty high. Not sure how to solve this either when building sth out of ikea furniture.

I'm thinking about a desk that's deep enough for the piano to slide out of your legs way when not in use. Any other possiblilities to have the tabletop at an ergonomic height?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 28, 2013)

The desktop on mine is about 82cm, you're right.

Muk, if you want to give me a call (PM me for #) I'd be happy to tell you all the details. It's easy for me, because I have the desk in that picture on my lap.  And if you're in the Los Angeles area you're welcome to come by and sit at mine.

I'm the guy whose concept this desk is and who's been working on it longer than anyone: all day long for over five years. The measurements really do work, and by the way this is absolutely not a factory-made desk - it's hand made to order by a woodworking craftsman who's really amazing! I say that as an admirer of his work, not as a huckster.

Also, we can and have customized the dimensions for very small and tall people, and also we set the desktop height as low as possible over your model of controller keyboard. (It can be tweaked later if you decide to change models in a few years.)

Now, of course the desktop is higher than a standard desktop, but if your arms are on chair arms, it's perfectly comfortable for typing, and I write on my desk and do all kinds of things on it as well. Then when you slide the desktop forward, the keyboard and mouse are in perfect position hovering over your controller keyboard for using your sequencer.

By the way, I used to have Ikea furniture, and it didn't work for me at all.


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## Adrian Myers (Apr 28, 2013)

Have you considered the full integration approach as seen in the Lumina videos? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3sByGp4z84

This allows you to lower the tabletop itself quite a lot as there is no need for housing or clearance for a trolley mechanism. Obviously you'd want a plank or something to lay over the keyboard inset for normal desk work (a notch running around the three sides of the inset should allow that), but otherwise I think it's the best solution to the height problem. 

Last time I checked, commercial desks were like $2500 for a clunky thing and they went way up from there. For that amount, you could build pretty much whatever you want (and use solid wenge because good lord are the desks marked up).


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## Justin Miller (Apr 28, 2013)

*Re: VI Composer's Desk - too high?*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvOrPruDaf0

this video showed me how to build a desk and this is what I made after watching it:
(I went a bit farther than what the video said to do, so it cost me a around 250 instead of 100) You will need a table saw, chop saw and electric sander.


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## muk (Apr 29, 2013)

Thank you Nick for chiming in, I hoped you would  Your desk is a beauty, and the concept with the sliding tabletop is quite unique and appealing. However 82cm is too high for me, as I'm using it primarily as a working desk.
Maybe with a customization it might fit my needs perfectly. I'm currently considering my options 

Good tip there Adrian, thank you. I'm considering this as a good solution for the height problem. The downsides are imo that it's not as easy to customize later on should I change my digitalpiano. And I'd have to remove a woodpanel to go between writing and playing vs simply using a slider. Nevertheless an interesting approach.

Wow Justin, beautiful work there! How high is your tabletop? Would you mind sending me your sketchup of this desk?


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## davinwv (Apr 29, 2013)

You should also check out the K1 workstation from KK Audio:

http://www.kkaudio.com/K1.html

There are several different configuration options. I just took delivery of mine, and it is very well made!


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## muk (Apr 29, 2013)

Thanks, I've seen those. Their tabletop is at 78cm - still a bit high, considering I'm wasting space with the drawer (my dp is 14cm high, their drawers are either 12cm or 17cm).
Can you comment on the knee clearance? 24'' (approx. 60cm) seems rather tight. Is it comfortable enough for you?


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## madbulk (Apr 29, 2013)

It's definitely a tough puzzle. My KK Audio custom desk is 33" on top. The keyboard shelf beneath is at 24" which puts the keys at 30. It all works about as well as you can hope.
I'm average height. Couldn't go lower than 24 on the piano shelf. So that's your starting point and you work upward from there. I don't know if there's a way to do it without compromises. I love this desk.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 29, 2013)

Here's the thing: Justin's really nice desk, the KK one, a plank over the keyboard in that video, Jeff Laity's beautiful hand-built desk (he's posted pictures here before)...they all come down the the same thing: you have a desktop over the keyboard, and that means the desktop is higher or the keyboard lower than standard heights. I can tell you that it's much more comfortable having the desktop higher; if the height is really an issue for you, you can angle the front down like a drafting table. It shouldn't be, though.

KK has a keyboard drawer, I believe, and that doesn't change the heights of anything; all it does is require that you slide your chair back when you pull the keyboard out, so you're too far away from the computer monitor and speakers.

By the way, I talked to KK about doing a less expensive version of our design. He felt it wasn't a big enough market to warrant the computer time (they cut all their parts out of composition board in a machine that's programmed...I forget what it's called). You have to build 50 of them at a time to make it worthwhile, and we don't sell them in that volume.



> This allows you to lower the tabletop itself quite a lot as there is no need for housing or clearance for a trolley mechanism



We have the drawer slides outside the width of the MIDI keyboard, so that's not an issue. The clearance between the top of the keyboard and the bottom of the desktop is 1/4".

The knee clearance is 3/4" below the bottom of the MIDI keyboard...because the shelf is made of 3/4" thick furniture ply.

We did make one desk for a really tall guy that eliminated the bottom shelf thickness by using steel instead. If you're building your own, you can use angle steel. Look it up at a hardware store - it's right-angle steel, an L if you look at the ends, and the vertical leg of the L has the effect of adding thickness to prevent the horizontal one from buckling.

But however you do it, the best design is to have the desktop slide rather than the keyboard. I know because I've experimented with at least eight different set-ups over the years. The predecessor to the VI Composer's Desk was built out of Ultimate Support hardware, and that was how I knew the overall concept was right. But this is a big refinement over it, and in fact we even figured out some subtle refinements over my desk (which is the prototype for all the others we've built).


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## Jimbo 88 (Apr 29, 2013)

Ok...silly thought. How about an adjustable chair? 


Another thing, a couple of years ago i rebuilt my keyboard stand and made it too high. So I purchased a couple of 3/4" 4x4 plywood sheets, screwed them together, threw some carpeting over the top, put my office chair on it and....viola the right height.

I quickly learned that I needed a railing around my little stand to keep me from falling off.

but now it works well.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 29, 2013)

It's a good idea to have an adjustable chair in any case.

I have an Aeron size C, and fully extended it's just the right height for me with the keyboard surface at standard piano height (about 29-1/2"). When I removed a square of carpet where my chair sits and put down parquet tiles, the chair was too low (because the desk legs are still on carpet). So I ordered the extra-large casters, and it's just right again.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 29, 2013)

By the way, muk, if you're local, you - or anyone else for that matter - are/is welcome to come by and see the desk whether or not you're potential customers. I'm happy to help, and the worst that can happen is that you mention it to someone in the future.


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## muk (Apr 30, 2013)

Thanks for the offer. I'm from switzerland though, a visit is regrettably not possible.

An adjustable chair is certainly commendable. However, the higher the chair the less knee clearance. It's not only a problem of the tabletop height, but of the space from the floor to the underside of the digitalpiano too.
I'm still looking for the perfect configuration for me. I guess 60cm knee clearance could do (can anybody with a kk audio desk comment on this?). That would set the tabletop roughly at 76cm. Still a bit high, but it might be ok


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 30, 2013)

And the lower the chair the more knee clearance! You have to consider both the actual heights from the floor and the distance between the bottom of the keyboard shelf and the top of your desktop. It's easy to make the legs longer to accommodate your knees.

But I'd go back to my previous suggestions: use two facing lengths of angle steel (instead of a wooden shelf) to hold up the controller keyboard. That will almost eliminate the thickness of the "shelf" the keyboard is on:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ang ... ORM=HDRSC2

And then you can angle the desktop so it tilts uphill like a drafting table:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=dra ... tedIndex=0

That can still be made to slide forward and expose the keyboard. (The picture is just the first one - I just linked it to show what I mean about tilting the desktop.)


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## Justin Miller (Apr 30, 2013)

Muk, I don't remember how high it is (it's at my parents' house because I can't fit it in my current room here until I finish constructing my studio). I just took the height of the seat at the lowest level and added it to the width of my thigh, the thickness of the piano (plus its support tray), and the thickness of the table top. I think it came out around 30-32". That is around what you said as 81 cm, but I do have the bulkiest keyboard ever, its about 6 inches tall. Also my table top is super sturdy because it has two 3/4" mahogany ply stacked and topped with 1/2" hard wood flooring. So with a thinner keyboard and less dense top you could reduce it by 4 inches. That would be about 70-73 cm.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 30, 2013)

muk @ Tue Apr 30 said:


> However, the higher the chair the less knee clearance.





Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Apr 30 said:


> And the lower the chair the more knee clearance!



Chair height might effect _thigh_ clearance, but the height of your knees is constant, no matter how high the chair.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 30, 2013)

Sort of, but probably you're going to have your legs at a different angle depending on the height of the chair. Your feet will be in a different place, in other words.

In any case, for most people - not including Mike, who sat at my desk and raised it several inches with his knees  - the bottom of most controller keyboards will not bother most knees if the surface of the keyboard is at the height of most pianos (about 29-1/2").


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## Dan Mott (Apr 30, 2013)

Ah man. All you Americans. You have custom desk shops. Acoustic treatment shops like Real Traps and GIKK Acoustics. More variety of brands. A bigger music industry and more diverse taste.

I'm living in the wrong country :D


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## Justin Miller (Apr 30, 2013)

Just get a table saw, chop saw, nail gun (preferably), wood glue, router (not needed), and you can make it yourself for a very cheap cost.

I bought maybe 4 sheets of mahogany ply, some 2x4's, 2 10$ packs of hard wood flooring, some trim, and a heavy duty sliding keyboard tray ($35)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 30, 2013)

Hm. Building your own is great, but I have religious problems with keyboard drawers.


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## muk (May 1, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Apr 30 said:


> Hm. Building your own is great, but I have religious problems with keyboard drawers.



Lol. I think a keyboard-drawer is not a bad option, but sliding the tabletop is even more sophisticated and easier to work with.
An angled desktop, though a good idea, wouldn't do it for me. As said I need a working desk foremost, and on an angled surface I personally cannot type/write comfortably.

No matter which system I choose, the underside of the digitalpiano cannot go lower than 60cm (because of _thigh_ clearance :D ). Add the 14cm of my Roland FP 7F plus the thickness of the tabletop. That'll put my desk at around 76cm, which should be ok. So I guess I can choose the system I'm most comfortable working with, which might be Nick's clever solution of sliding the tabletop.
I'll have to ask a local carpenter what he thinks about it. Probably that I'm crazy


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## chimuelo (May 1, 2013)

Believe it or not I use the giant Reebok Core Training Ball.
It's better on your back, teaches you to sit up straight, you can do crunches while listening to a mix, bounce around to various stations.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 1, 2013)

muk, this is the key:

http://www.amazon.com/Knape-Vogt-Extra-Drawer-Slides/dp/B0043TX3SA (http://www.amazon.com/Knape-Vogt-Extra- ... B0043TX3SA)

Big honking drawer slides - and unless new ones have come out in the past five years, that specific model. Again, have the rails they're on straddle the outsides of your controller keyboard so you can have the desktop as low as possible over your keyboard. That was the first thing we learned from the prototype - you don't want the thickness of the drawer slides themselves to force it higher than necessary.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 1, 2013)

chim - I have one of these:

http://www.relaxtheback.com/the-swopper ... air-3.html

...and my wife and daughter both love theirs, but I prefer the Aeron and use it for auxiliary seating (and for playing drumKAT).

I just looked at the price! Wow! It's gone way up.


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## muk (May 1, 2013)

Thank you so much Nick, very generous of you to share such valuable advice. I'll make sure that my carpenter follows it.
I have to add that I'm very tempted by your great product, it's sadly just that tad too expensive for me (not to mention oversea-shipping and the customs hassle). It's only on this background that I'll have a carpenter build my desk.

I'm still thinking about a solution to have the piano completely out of the way when not in use. One that doesn't heighten the tabletop. But whatever I came up with so far: there goes my thigh clearance...


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 1, 2013)

Understood.

My woodworking partner is setting up a shop in a new location (actually he's moving to another state) with more room. Because he'll have the room, we've been talking about making a few of them at once, which will bring down the cost quite a bit.

But that's in the future, and it's still labor-intensive when he's spreading out the set-up time for each operation over several desks. I mean, the materials alone are over 1/3 of the price.

International shipping isn't terrible - about $350. But there's no getting around it: handmade furniture isn't cheap.


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## Justin Miller (May 1, 2013)

I wouldn't recommend a sliding desktop unless you have separate stands for the speakers. Your speaker imaging will change constantly. I'm having a custom desk built by Argosy currently, but I can't show it until it's purchased. This will actually modeled off of the same exact keyboard height of a Yamaha C7 (where a Doepfer will fit into). The desk will start as soon as the keys end (only about 1/2 up from the tops of the black keys). Maybe that is a good solution, to have something similar made?


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## synthetic (May 1, 2013)

Early ergomonic study I did when planning my desk: 

http://www.jefflaity.com/gallery/desk/deskplan_ergonomics (http://www.jefflaity.com/gallery/desk/d ... ergonomics)

I even went to NAMM with a tape measure to see how high the piano keytops were. (~28 inches)

It comes out to a bit of a tradeoff. Where your knees want to be + thickness of bottom shelf + thickness of keyboard + thickness of top = where the top ends up. I ended up with my knees hitting the bottom a bit and the desktop farther away than I would like. But I like working on it. 

Of course I haven't tried working 120 hour weeks at the desk, maybe I would change my tune...


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 1, 2013)

You wouldn't. 

But most keyboards I've seen are 29 - 29-1/2", at least the ones I measured (our Yamaha upright and my mom's two Steinway grands).

Doesn't matter, though - it's what's comfortable for you.


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## Polarity (May 3, 2013)

since Ikea was nominated, can I suggest you this new product?
http://www.ikea.com/it/it/catalog/products/50219044/
sorry, it's from the italian website, so you will have to re-search it on your country version.

It's very very new, and if it wasn't that I had already bought and mounted the new forniture pieces (got also from Ikea) for my new custom musical corner,
probably I would have go for this office workstation.
Especially if I knew the right measurements: actually is not large as I believed reading their specs.
However I went for a smaller solution (as for dimensions as for the total cost).

The desktop is 132 cm large, for example..
and looks very solid.
I was there at Ikea store also yesterday and having found it finally exposed I got down on paper all the measurements of the various objects using a tape measure on my own.
So tell me if you can be interested in it, and I'll copy here all numbers I got.


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## Polarity (May 3, 2013)

here a photo live.


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## muk (May 4, 2013)

Thanks polarity, great suggestion. I can see this one becoming a favourite for studio-desk over at ikeahackers. I'm trying to get over prebuilt/diy solutions and having something more definite tailored to my needs, so it's not quite what I have in mind. Seems to be a versatile starting point for semi-diy solutions though


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## synthetic (May 4, 2013)

I'm not mad about the side pieces, seems like that would cause acoustic problemos.


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## rgames (May 4, 2013)

Keep in mind that you can always keep the keyboard off to the side with a second monitor above it (that's my setup). I've found setups that are comfortable for sitting at the keyboard and setups that are comfortable for working on the desktop but doing both in one setup is, for me, a physical impossibility.

It's a short chair slide to get from desktop to keyboard and (for me, anyway) it's a *lot* more comfortable than trying to cram both into one setup.

It depends on your workflow, too. I'm not much of a "play it in" person - I tend to sketch out pieces in front of the keyboard then move over to the desktop and tidy everything up. I also keep a 25-key keyboard on the desktop to do some tweaks.

rgames


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## muk (May 5, 2013)

[/img]That'd certainly be the easiest solution. It's just that space and aesthetics are an issue for me. I have no studio, so it's all set up in my appartment. A "normal" working desk fits in nicely, but I don't want my living room to look like a professional studio and I don't have the space for it 

Workflow is a reason as well. I'm doing it the oldfashioned way: paper and pencil, frequently checking some things on the piano. That's most comfortable to do on a desk, with a piano readily in reach. So I think Nick's design makes a lot of sense.
Currently I'm working kinda the opposite way of what you suggested. I'm sitting at the piano, with a small table at it's side. While this is ok for workflow, switching between table and piano is a bit quirky. For me a dp underneath the desk's tabletop would create a more natural working process, and it's less space-consuming.

By the way, Franz Liszt had such a desk :D


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## synthetic (May 5, 2013)

muk @ Sun May 05 said:


> By the way, Franz Liszt had such a desk :D



Awesome! I've never seen that before.


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