# Advice for new Headphones (for arrangement and mixing)



## FabTramp (Nov 7, 2020)

Hi everyone,

I hope you guys are all well under this crazy times!!

I'm just writing to ask for some advice about a pairof new headphones I want to upgrade to. For the next few years I will be in a situation where I will have to be composing and mixing on my headphones for probably 80% of my time. So I would be looking for a great pair of headphones that translates a very truthful sound. I also have a pair of monitors which I will be using often, especially in the final stages of a track, to compare the sound and take a look to the larger picture rather than small details. I also have some cheaper computer speakers that I use to have a further judgement about the mixing. So, the headphones will be my first and most important tool I will be using for composing and mixing.

My budget is around £400.

I've been studying the book "Mixing Secrets for the small studio" by Mike Senior and the author had suggested this two pair of headphones:

- A semi-opened back headphones: Beyerdynamic DT 880 PRO Headset (£150)
- An opened-back headphones: Sennheiser HD 650 Pro (£399).

What do you think about this two headphones? They are on a very different price range. Unfortunately at the moment, because of Lockdown in England, I'm not able to try any headphones therefore I'm trying to gather more info as possible until I will be able to test them.

I've heard good things about the Sennheiser.. I already own a cheaper pair of them and I really like them. Though, on their website they are not listed under the Studio Headphones but under Audiophile Headphones. I'm just concerned that, as listed on Audiophile, the sound they create was made to enhance the listening experience rather that giving a more honest and truthful sound for a mixing level? Is that the case?

Also, I never owned a pair of opened-back headphones and, although I know all the benefits they have more than the closed-back ones, I'm just a little concerned about how much sound they let out. Is it very loud? Also, do external sound easily come in too? If this is the case, are there any closed-back headphones (even more expensive) that can compare to opened ones in terms of a truthful sound for a great mixing experience?

Please let me know any suggestions you have. I am able to stretch my budget a bit to find the right headphones!

Thank you!!!

Have a great weekend!!


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## easyrider (Nov 7, 2020)

Sennheiser HD 650


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## dedene (Nov 7, 2020)

I very much love my Austrian Audio Hi-X55


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## Drjay (Nov 7, 2020)

I bought the Beyerdynamic DT-1990 pro during one of their latest sales. Honestly speaking, I can‘t judge about linearity, truthfulness etc. But I like what I hear  I definitely like them better than my old (pretty outworn) DT-880 and I would buy them again. Build quality is rock solid imo. But as I said, since I‘m no pro I leave it to others to comment on the sound as regards studio requirements.


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## lux (Nov 7, 2020)

as a (very) personal general rule, for mixing I would go for less comfortable headphones, and with a flat response, at least thats my own experience with the matter. The HD serie is really comfortable so it may lead to some indulgence to your mix, which may, in some cases, sound to your ears way better than it is in reality. Then you move to listening on speakers, car, iphone for a reality check and it gets depressive.


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## Mornats (Nov 7, 2020)

I use the 880 pro for mixing and think they're really good for this. I've no experience of the 650 though so can't compare. However, I did come from closed back headphones (Audio Technica M50x) and the open back ones are more open and let you hear the soundstage better in my opinion. I much prefer open back to closed back for mixing. Best way to describe it is with closed back the sound is right around your ear but with open back it's all around the outside of your head.

With regards to sound leaking, the semi open 880 pros leak as much as open back and yes outside noise does creep in. 

Between the two you're looking at, a lot of people who own either rate them highly. Criticisms of the 880 pros mention boosted highs which some don't like. I've not noticed it but I'm 46 and my hearing above 16.5khz is lost to youth and metal gigs so maybe it's just out of range. This is unfortunately where listening to them will help.


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## BassClef (Nov 7, 2020)

I LUV my HD 650s. If I crank them up loud, lay them on my desk, walk 8 feet away, I can only hear a tiny bit, and then only if all else in the house is quiet. So for instance, if someone is sleeping in a bed beside you, they will hear it faintly, but in another room, NO. The noise from your keyboard will be much louder!


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## Ndee (Nov 7, 2020)

Steven Slate's VSX, they come with a plugin that enables you to hear you music as if in a studio. Changed my life. It's no wonder professional sound peeps everywhere are praising them. I've mixed and worked with headphones for 10+ years and the Slate cans really took me by for a ride.

They're the best solution, hands down, I've found for mixing when you can't afford or don't have the luxury of an acoustically treated space with high-end speakers. I have big ears and they're very nice to use nevertheless. Also pleasant to use without the app. If you want another pair, then I second the opinions here, but with Sennheisers you want to make sure your audio interface has enough power to drive them.


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## cloudbuster (Nov 7, 2020)

Modded AKG K712 Pro w/symmetrical cable on a E1DA 9038S USB-DAC. I also tried the Beyerdynamic DT 880 PRO and Sennheiser HD 650 Pro next to some more cans from those and some other companies but based on my individual hearing and preferences ended up with the AKGs (most balanced to my ears with excellent detail resolution, wide stage and amazing spatial precison).
... No regrets so far.


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## FabTramp (Nov 7, 2020)

Thanks everyone for your comments!!





Ndee said:


> Steven Slate's VSX, they come with a plugin that enables you to hear you music as if in a studio. Changed my life. It's no wonder professional sound peeps everywhere are praising them. I've mixed and worked with headphones for 10+ years and the Slate cans really took me by for a ride.
> 
> They're the best solution, hands down, I've found for mixing when you can't afford or don't have the luxury of an acoustically treated space with high-end speakers. I have big ears and they're very nice to use nevertheless. Also pleasant to use without the app. If you want another pair, then I second the opinions here, but with Sennheisers you want to make sure your audio interface has enough power to drive them.




I must take a look at these Slate's VSX. It all sounds very interesting!

Regarding the Sennheiser, I recently upgraded my Audio Interface to the new MOTU M4. How would you know if it's got enough power to run them? And to also run the Slate's? 

Thanks so much!!


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## Ndee (Nov 7, 2020)

FabTramp said:


> Regarding the Sennheiser, I recently upgraded my Audio Interface to the new MOTU M4. How would you know if it's got enough power to run them? And to also run the Slate's?
> 
> Thanks so much!!



you should be good to go with the M4 in pretty much most cases (unless you're a a huuuge audiophile, but then you wouldn't be using M4). Slates are easy and work with pretty much anything.


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## SupremeFist (Nov 7, 2020)

I have the VSX on order but meantime have been using the new version of dsoniq's Realphones plugin which is really good, to the extent I would definitely make sure to buy a headphone they have a profile for. (This with HD6XX which are supposedly identical to 650s, and also my original AKG K701s which are a serious steal at the current price.)


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## sourcefor (Nov 7, 2020)

I can also recomend Audio Technical ATH R70x and Sennheiser HD600


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## ALittleNightMusic (Nov 7, 2020)

Slate VSX.


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## John Longley (Nov 7, 2020)

I don't use headphones for anything critical, but if I had to mix on some-- I enjoy my Audeze LCD-X. I like my HD650s for long periods as they sound reasonable and are light weight.


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## NathanTiemeyer (Nov 7, 2020)

Been rocking the HD600's for a few months now and they are awesome to work with. Mixes translate really well I've found.


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## sumVI (Nov 7, 2020)

Here are some detailed reviews of both headphones from RTINGS.com:

DT-880:

https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/beyerdynamic/dt-880

HD-650:

https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/sennheiser/hd-650

I shopped both of these models plus the Slate VSX about a month ago. The treble spike on the 880s was an issue for me, plus the cable is not replaceable, so I bought the HD-650s. I have had them for a few weeks and love them. They are very neutral, but you will need a headphone amp to power them.

Regarding Steven Slate VSX:

There are 93 pages of posts about them, including posts from Steven Slate himself, located here:









Steven Slate VSX Headphone: Mix in Pro Studios, Mastering Rooms, Cars, Clubs, Boomboxes, & More - Gearspace.com


CLICK HERE FOR LAUNCH VIDEO VISIT THE VSX WEBPAGE Introducing the Steven Slate Audio VSX system. In 2001 I was mixing my band's EP in my little home studio in Boston, Mass. I spent days getting that EP to sound incredible. The drums were huge, the guitars



www.gearslutz.com





As a new product announcement, initially these posts are filled with hype. Midway through, as user experiences come in, opinions get mixed. I was intrigued for a day, but passed because the headphone construction seems cheap and it requires using software; whereas I just wanted headphones I can use all the time.


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## storyteller (Nov 7, 2020)

My vote goes to HD650s, but you will greatly benefit from multiple pairs to reveal what other pairs might hide... like supplementing the HD650s with the Sony MDR7506 which is what many engineers use as mixing reference headphones. And yes, they are only $99 and have been around for ages. Andrew Schoeps uses MDR7506 for mixing... of course he uses monitors too, but headphones on the road and such. A lot of guys that began mixing in that same analog mixing era swear by 7506s.

I tried for a while to become a “headphone mixer” to buck the trend and prove the world wrong... that it could actually be done... but the reality is nothing will work as well for you as monitors and room treatment. I dedicated several years in this effort on my personal songs, but i think these past years cumulatively represent my worst mixes and am presently going back and remixing all of these songs on monitors. 🤷‍♂️ It was an experiment...


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## Drjay (Nov 7, 2020)

sumVI said:


> The treble spike on the 880s was an issue for me, plus the cable is not replaceable, so I bought the HD-650s. I have had them for a few weeks and love them. They are very neutral, but you will need a headphone amp to power them.


You can buy a replacement cable from Beyerdynamic, but you have to solder it yourself. I did so a few years ago.


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## Ndee (Nov 8, 2020)

sumVI said:


> Regarding Steven Slate VSX:
> 
> There are 93 pages of posts about them, including posts from Steven Slate himself, located here:
> 
> ...



Not to kill your reasonable criticism, but in all honesty, there's not a single product out there about which somebody wouldn't find something to nag, and gearslutz - like all pro audio forums - excels in this. There's always some feature missing, someone's preference unfulfilled, and so on. 
I've read through the thread and was surprised how very few negative or mixed opinions people had. In my experience, it's rare to see that much praise in gearslutz for a new product, usually the overall reaction is more neutral. 

But whatever the case, I don't think it means anything, in the end. We all need to trust ourselves - when you're using something every day for years, only you know if it's good for you.

As I said earlier, they're a nice pair of headphones to use without the app, as well, and they're designed to sound OK when connected to your laptop or phone sans interface, something that isn't the case with some cans mentioned here (my Sennheisers really benefit from a good preamp). 

For listening pleausre, I'd personally buy something like Focal's new high end models (tried them and literally cried while listening). For working on sound and music daily, I haven't found a better solution than VSX. I agree, it's early, and my opinion might change after using them for a year or so. But for now, it has tackled all the issues I've previously struggled with when using HPs, namely spatiality and bass.

Overall, if you can't afford to measure and treat the room where you work, I see no reason to buy expensive speakers, hence my recommendation for the VSX. But in the end, it's about you getting to know your tools, most of all. (I can do a proper quick mix with my 50€ speakers because after years of using them as reference, I know their nature by heart.)


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## Markrs (Nov 8, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> I have the VSX on order but meantime have been using the new version of dsoniq's Realphones plugin which is really good, to the extent I would definitely make sure to buy a headphone they have a profile for. (This with HD6XX which are supposedly identical to 650s, and also my original AKG K701s which are a serious steal at the current price.)


I do the same, I have Dsoniqs Realphones and use HD650 and I am very happy with them. The Realphones were recently on a very good offer, which I expect will be repeated for Black Friday, so worth a consideration.


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## Yogevs (Nov 8, 2020)

Some recommendations from the Spitfire Audio crew (from two years ago):


All of them are around £100.
beyerdynamic DT 990 PRO Studio Headphones
Sony MDR-7510
beyerdynamic DT 770 PRO Studio Headphones
AKG K702 Open-Back Over-Ear Premium Studio Reference Headphones


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## Yogevs (Nov 8, 2020)

Hijacking this thread for a personal question - I have an old Sennheiser eH350. Are they any good? Or should I get new ones?


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## Instrugramm (Nov 8, 2020)

I d' advise to get the HD 600, the HD 650 have a hefty mid bass bump that can screw up mixes, especially percussion and strings. I do also own DT 880 600 ohms, they're great but need an appropriate amp and they over emphasize punch on the bass, the new HD 560S on the other hand miss out on punch and have a soundstage that's too large to judge instrument placement. I personally tend to record and write with my Ether CX and then mix and master on HD 600 and finally check my mix using at least 6 other Headphones, my phone and 3 Sets of Speakers. Never rely on Headphones alone but if you do, use HD 600s they're by far the most neutral and ideally translating headphones I've come across so far. (Checking sub bass only, a pair of felt modded 58X Jubilee or Verum One can do an ok job, do not get something bassy like the DT 177x or Sivga Phoenix for that task.)

Ps. Consider getting a dedicated DAC and AMP for mixing, even more expensive Audio Interfaces by Universal Audio do not deliver the same kind of fidelity and detail and some headphones do profit from a balanced connection (HD 600 being among them).


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## widescreen (Nov 8, 2020)

If you need more power, why not add a Superlux HA3D as amp after your source? That can definitely boost ANY headphone so loud, that your ears fall of if not the headphones crashed before. Even at 2000 Ohms. 
Definitely enough for 600 Ohms.


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## Instrugramm (Nov 8, 2020)

widescreen said:


> If you need more power, why not add a Superlux HA3D as amp after your source? That can definitely boost ANY headphone so loud, that your ears fall of if not the headphones crashed before. Even at 2000 Ohms.
> Definitely enough for 600 Ohms.


The Issue isn't volume, the Apollo Twin X can power Dt880 600 ohms as can my A90, the THX 789 or even my XDuoo TA-20. These specific Beyerdynamic cans are very amp sensitive regarding single ended current delivery, they're really only great with either an Emotiva BasX or at the very least a Magni Heresy, although the Shiit also brings out the treble a lot. Audio inferfaces can generally power most headphones easily but since that isn't their main purpose (they're built for low latency etc.), they can't compete soundwise with headphone specific high-end equipment. That being said I spend way too much money on headphones and amplifiers, something I wouldn't necessarily recommend. 

Ps. HD 560S, Verum One Mk2, 58X Jubilee don't need a specific amp and don't scale the way HD 600 (650/ 6XX) do with high end gear.


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## bill5 (Nov 8, 2020)

FabTramp said:


> Please let me know any suggestions you have. I am able to stretch my budget a bit to find the right headphones!
> 
> Thank you!!!


I suggest you not spend anywhere near 400+ as you will be wasting your money. You can get a great set of headphones for 100-200ish if not less.

But first it's not clear to me what "for composing" means...you mean recording? Because that's a very different headphone requirement from using them for mixing. If you are doing both, I suggest a relatively inexpensive (about 50 or even less) pair of closed-back for recording and an open or semi-open "nicer" pair for mixing. Opinions on which are best as you can see are all over the place, but if you read enough, you may see some patterns starting to emerge (I'd check gearslutz where you can find a lot of info/opinions). Beyerdynamics and Sennheisers in general seem well regarded. ATs often are too, but I've found/heard that they tend to be heavy in the bass, so not true "studio" headphones.


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## FabTramp (Nov 9, 2020)

HI everyone! Thanks so much for all your comments, they are helping a lot! 

First of all I just wanted to explain, to be more clear of what I'm after, why I'm going to be needing a pair of good headphones. Me and my girlfriend are investing to buy an RV which we are going to use to travel a bit of the world for a few years. Therefore, although will have a mobile studio strategically built in the bedroom of our RV, my possibilities to create a professional acoustic treatment are limited. So most of the time I will be using headphones for composing (which I mean writing music without any recording of live instruments or voices so open back phones won't be a problem) and mixing but I will also have the availability to confirm my mixes on my monitors (which I've had for a while and studied a lot of music compositions on it, so I'm quite familiar with their sound). I also have another pair of cheap speakers and a pair of Sennheiser HD280 PRO to give a further check to how the track is sounding. 

At the moment I'm feeling quite interested in the Sennheiser HD650 (but will also check out different models as you guys were suggesting) as I have heard so many good things about them and also because I think the Sennheiser I have now are pretty comfortable and I'm kind of already used to their sound. But I will obviously do so much more reading and testing about all these other models you have been suggesting to me, before I commit to anything. How does it work during Covid times? Are you actually allowed to try them in a shop? What do you guys do to test this type of stuff ? Is it a bit cheeky to order online, try them and return? 

I have got a couple of questions:

- Some of you have been talking about the need of an amp? I'm pretty rubbish with technical stuff I'm afraid, but is that mainly for reaching higher volumes rather than sound quality? Because if that is the case I don't really need to listen to very high volumes anyway so. Would I manage to have their best quality run by my Audio Interface MOTU M4 only? 

- Also, someone said that spending £400 headphones is wasting money. I'm not understanding why, as I am trying to reach for the best quality I can afford. Surely they're worth their value? 

Thanks again!! Legends!!


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## Markrs (Nov 9, 2020)

FabTramp said:


> HI everyone! Thanks so much for all your comments, they are helping a lot!
> 
> First of all I just wanted to explain, to be more clear of what I'm after, why I'm going to be needing a pair of good headphones. Me and my girlfriend are investing to buy an RV which we are going to use to travel a bit of the world for a few years. Therefore, although will have a mobile studio strategically built in the bedroom of our RV, my possibilities to create a professional acoustic treatment are limited. So most of the time I will be using headphones for composing (which I mean writing music without any recording of live instruments or voices so open back phones won't be a problem) and mixing but I will also have the availability to confirm my mixes on my monitors (which I've had for a while and studied a lot of music compositions on it, so I'm quite familiar with their sound). I also have another pair of cheap speakers and a pair of Sennheiser HD280 PRO to give a further check to how the track is sounding.
> 
> ...


I run my HD650 from my MOTU M2 with no problems. As to is £400 on headphones worth it. Well my Hd650 are 16 years old (got them when they were first released) and work perfect just needed new pads and cable once. The only thing that concerns be about new headphones with lots of tech in them is how quickly the tech dates. Whereas analogue headphones with no tech can last decades!


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## Markrs (Nov 9, 2020)

I would also say if you get the HD650s give Dsoniqs Realphones a try they do a very generous 40 day trial. It will correct the HD650 to a flatter tone and give spacial elements of speakers in a room. When I got mine it was 51% off so was pretty cheap.


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## Markrs (Nov 9, 2020)

FabTramp said:


> HI everyone! Thanks so much for all your comments, they are helping a lot!
> 
> First of all I just wanted to explain, to be more clear of what I'm after, why I'm going to be needing a pair of good headphones. Me and my girlfriend are investing to buy an RV which we are going to use to travel a bit of the world for a few years. Therefore, although will have a mobile studio strategically built in the bedroom of our RV, my possibilities to create a professional acoustic treatment are limited. So most of the time I will be using headphones for composing (which I mean writing music without any recording of live instruments or voices so open back phones won't be a problem) and mixing but I will also have the availability to confirm my mixes on my monitors (which I've had for a while and studied a lot of music compositions on it, so I'm quite familiar with their sound). I also have another pair of cheap speakers and a pair of Sennheiser HD280 PRO to give a further check to how the track is sounding.
> 
> ...


Should also say that until I got my recent job I was also going to campervan around Europe for a couple of years. Part of the reason I trialed so many headphone mixing software was to see if it would help to get a good mix whilst I was travelling.


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## Scoremixer (Nov 9, 2020)

FabTramp said:


> - Some of you have been talking about the need of an amp? I'm pretty rubbish with technical stuff I'm afraid, but is that mainly for reaching higher volumes rather than sound quality? Because if that is the case I don't really need to listen to very high volumes anyway so. Would I manage to have their best quality run by my Audio Interface MOTU M4 only?
> 
> - Also, someone said that spending £400 headphones is wasting money. I'm not understanding why, as I am trying to reach for the best quality I can afford. Surely they're worth their value?



To offer a dissenting opinion, I'd argue that there's a whole world of headphone goodness that opens up if you spend more than £400 and look above the typical Sennheiser HD600 recommendations. If you're going to be on cans for the majority of the time for the next few years then my suggestion would be to prioritise spending on headphones like you'd spend on new monitors for a studio room, or a new laptop. 

I've got a set of Dan Clark Audio Aeon closed back cans that I love, and if I were in the market for a second pair I'd look into Audeze's. Trying them out may a be a problem at the moment. I went through a pretty lengthy hunt for a new set of cans a couple of years ago, and at that time Amazon were very good about accepting returns on anything. Times may have changed though!

Unless you buy something wildly esoteric, your M4 will do just fine. Save your cash for the headphones themselves.


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## Ndee (Nov 9, 2020)

if there's a hi-fi shop near where you live, do yourself a favor and go try out some pairs.


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## bill5 (Nov 9, 2020)

FabTramp said:


> - Also, someone said that spending £400 headphones is wasting money. I'm not understanding why, as I am trying to reach for the best quality I can afford. Surely they're worth their value?


It depends on the specifics, but basically no...something costing more doesn't necessarily mean it's better. As a simple example, the SM57 and 58 mics are two of the most highly-regarded mics on the planet, yet they're extremely inexpensive. If I had a nickel for every time I heard a piece of gear that sounded as good or even better than more expensive ones, I'd be rich. Of course it's your money, if you feel better spending more and are confident it will be worthwhile, more power to you.


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## SupremeFist (Nov 9, 2020)

bill5 said:


> It depends on the specifics, but basically no...something costing more doesn't necessarily mean it's better. As a simple example, the SM57 and 58 mics are two of the most highly-regarded mics on the planet, yet they're extremely inexpensive. If I had a nickel for every time I heard a piece of gear that sounded as good or even better than more expensive ones, I'd be rich. Of course it's your money, if you feel better spending more and are confident it will be worthwhile, more power to you.


For sure price is not generally a good guide to quality, but I think up to a point headphones is one area where you do get what you pay for: at least mid-range sets like HD650 and Ollo S4 are just objectively better in every way than anything that costs £100. Whether it's worth spending even more to get into "audiophile" territory is a different argument...


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## Instrugramm (Nov 9, 2020)

Scoremixer said:


> To offer a dissenting opinion, I'd argue that there's a whole world of headphone goodness that opens up if you spend more than £400 and look above the typical Sennheiser HD600 recommendations. If you're going to be on cans for the majority of the time for the next few years then my suggestion would be to prioritise spending on headphones like you'd spend on new monitors for a studio room, or a new laptop.
> 
> I've got a set of Dan Clark Audio Aeon closed back cans that I love, and if I were in the market for a second pair I'd look into Audeze's. Trying them out may a be a problem at the moment. I went through a pretty lengthy hunt for a new set of cans a couple of years ago, and at that time Amazon were very good about accepting returns on anything. Times may have changed though!
> 
> Unless you buy something wildly esoteric, your M4 will do just fine. Save your cash for the headphones themselves.


I would argue that the Aeons aren't neutral enough though, even my Ether CXs have a slight bass bump. The HD 600 are still the best for mixing in my book, when it comes to enjoyment however you're absolutely right, there's a lot of money to be spent on good cans, amps and tubes. (Verum One MK2 do nonetheless beat some of my more expensive headphones and I'm eager to see how the Argon T60 RP will fare against them, once they arrive.)

*And then there are one trick ponies like the Sendy Aiva that are unbeatable for piano music but I don't want to get off topic too much.


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## bill5 (Nov 9, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> mid-range sets like HD650 and Ollo S4 are just objectively better in every way than anything that costs £100.


Change "objectively" to "subjectively" and I agree.  I can't speak to those specific ones though, just a general comment. But like most things musical, it's subjective.


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## Ndee (Nov 10, 2020)

it's really a matter of preference. Just like some (myself included) like to mix with cheap speakers that don't compliment the sound and thus make you work harder, some peeps prefer cheap headphones for their no-fuss, mundane sound. 

Paying more for headphones does make a difference, but this thread seems to be about finding headphones to work with, not the most pristine pair of audiophilia. If you want the latter, get the Focal Arche preamp + Stellia headphone set for 4000€, and if you don't hear a difference to your 100€ headphones, then I don't know what to say.
It's just that such headphones are not geared towards audio work, but sheer listening pleasure. I'd love to have a high-def 4k pair just for how immensively glorious the listening experience is, but even if I could afford it, for my work I need a pair that's on par with how people generally listen to their music, while being aware of the details, too (hence the VSX, a godsend imho). In any case, it takes quite a bit of time to learn to "read" your setup so that your mixes translate as smoothly as possible across various platforms. I always listen to my mixes in various volumes from almost mute to very loud to see what pops out and what doesn't.
My final test is usually listening to a finished mix while jogging 
good luck with your search! Don't take it too seriously is my only real advice...


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## Instrugramm (Nov 10, 2020)

If you want to go "cheap", mainly listen to epic orchestral music (Hans Zimmer, Howard Shore, Ramin Djawadi) and want something that's "ok" to mix with (only this genre), you could get the DT 880 600 ohms and a Magni Heresy + a decent Dac. It would be the cheapest way to get a setup that actually sounds kind of audiophile and lends itself to mix/ master. HD 600 still translate better, when it comes to the listening experience however, they' re very airy and more suited towards classical music and female voices. The DT 880 have a punchy bass, a larger soundstage, on par imaging with a bit of a treble spike (lends itself for a bit more clarity in a busy mix, hence why it's not as ideal to work with).

PS. In my experience DT 880 600 ohms are the only truly great headphones under 250 bucks to be perfectly honest. The sweet spot probably lies in between 300 and 500 euros/ dollars for a good price-performance ratio.


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## SupremeFist (Nov 10, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Change "objectively" to "subjectively" and I agree.  I can't speak to those specific ones though, just a general comment. But like most things musical, it's subjective.


A lot of things are subjective, but large steps in quality in instruments and other hardware are not. A Selmer Mk VI just is a better tenor sax than the crappy Jupiter I learned on; an American-made Fender is better than a Squier Bullet, etc.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 10, 2020)

NathanTiemeyer said:


> Been rocking the HD600's for a few months now and they are awesome to work with. Mixes translate really well I've found.



+1 to this! The HD600 plus Sonarworks was a huge improvement for my mixes. I can now mix confidently (for like the first time ever).


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## Vin (Nov 10, 2020)

FabTramp said:


> - A semi-opened back headphones: Beyerdynamic DT 880 PRO Headset (£150)
> - An opened-back headphones: Sennheiser HD 650 Pro (£399).




I have both and prefer DT 880 Pro for mixing and mastering (using it with Sonarworks Headphone correction). However, you won't go wrong with any of DT 880 Pro / HD 600 / HD 650 - all are fantastic for mixing and production.


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## FabTramp (Nov 11, 2020)

Thank you everyone for all your help!! 🙏😊


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## Zero&One (Dec 6, 2020)

FabTramp said:


> Thank you everyone for all your help!! 🙏😊



Hi, what did you finally get? 
I'm torn between Slate VSX and headphones/Sonarworks. The Slate offering seems to combine everything and more, so maybe the better choice? 
Help


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## Ivan M. (Dec 6, 2020)

Headphones Reviews







www.rtings.com





I'm considering getting the older HD600 (and not the newer HD650), less heat around the ears, take a look at the link, they measure that too


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## Zero&One (Dec 6, 2020)

Ivan M. said:


> Headphones Reviews
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have also, but the Slates SUV/earpods reference options seem to offer me more and with little to no hassle or setup. I'd probably compose with existing speakers and mix on these, hence why I'm leaning towards this solution?


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## SupremeFist (Dec 6, 2020)

Zero&One said:


> I have also, but the Slates SUV/earpods reference options seem to offer me more and with little to no hassle or setup. I'd probably compose with existing speakers and mix on these, hence why I'm leaning towards this solution?


I'm getting vastly better mixes on VSX than I ever did with HD650 etc alone. But if you already have decent headphones in this range or up then dsoniq's Realphones is also well worth trying.


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## Rossy (Dec 6, 2020)

FabTramp said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I hope you guys are all well under this crazy times!!
> 
> ...


I have a hi fi background and I learned music I listen to on my headphone amp compared to headphones to mix with can be quite different. For listening and mixing orchestral, I use akg q 701, they are not good for pop or rock but for orchestral, I get a great soundstage and the bottom end can be suprisingly low and detailed with great separation. If you want "oomph " then the Sennheiser HD 650 will do a great job. There are lots of great headphones in your budget and hopefully you can try before you buy.


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## Ndee (Dec 6, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> I'm getting vastly better mixes on VSX than I ever did with HD650 etc alone. But if you already have decent headphones in this range or up then dsoniq's Realphones is also well worth trying.



same here. Finished a bigger project recently which included mixing various kinds of music, and VSX was really helpful, esp. because I was working in different places. The more I use them, the more they grow on me. Easily one of the better purchases I've made this year.


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## Zero&One (Dec 6, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> I'm getting vastly better mixes on VSX than I ever did with HD650 etc alone. But if you already have decent headphones in this range or up then dsoniq's Realphones is also well worth trying.





Ndee said:


> same here. Finished a bigger project recently which included mixing various kinds of music, and VSX was really helpful, esp. because I was working in different places. The more I use them, the more they grow on me. Easily one of the better purchases I've made this year.



A shiny new set is on it's way to my house now 
Thanks!


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## SupremeFist (Dec 6, 2020)

Ndee said:


> same here. Finished a bigger project recently which included mixing various kinds of music, and VSX was really helpful, esp. because I was working in different places. The more I use them, the more they grow on me. Easily one of the better purchases I've made this year.


Yep for me it's the best gear I've bought for years, because it makes everything else sound better.


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## SupremeFist (Dec 6, 2020)

Zero&One said:


> A shiny new set is on it's way to my house now
> Thanks!


Woohoo, enjoy!


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## labornvain (Dec 6, 2020)

You will probably find HD650s in more studios around the world then any other set of headphones. In a situation where you can't actually go and audition headphones yourself, that is very useful information.

One of the considerations I haven't seen mentioned yet, which is really, really important if your going to be spending 10 hours a day wearing headphones is how comfortable they are.

The HD650s are incredibly comfortable. They are relatively light and have a soft felt padding that makes it easy to forget your wearing them. I really can't over emphasise how important this is. Uncomfortable headphones will ruin your life.

I can't speak to the Moto M4, but if it's any indication, my Samsung Galaxy phone can drive the HD650s no problem.

So between their popularity, which is like a tacit endorsement from thousands and thousands of audio engineers who swear by them, and their ability to be worn for hours on end without pain, the HD650s are a safe bet to buy sight unseen.

Lastly, because they're so popular, they are easy to sell and retain their resale value quite well.


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## SupremeFist (Dec 6, 2020)

labornvain said:


> You will probably find HD650s in more studios around the world then any other set of headphones. In a situation where you can't actually go and audition headphones yourself, that is very useful information.
> 
> One of the considerations I haven't seen mentioned yet, which is really, really important if your going to be spending 10 hours a day wearing headphones is how comfortable they are.
> 
> ...


Yes but NB engineers in studios are not trying to mix on them.


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## labornvain (Dec 6, 2020)

Don't be ridiculous. I would wager that more records have been mixed on the HD650 than any other set of headphones. I don't possess the statistical data to back that up. But as an audio engineer who's been working in studios for over 30 years, based on my experience, it's a safe bet.

You're trying to push for the Steven Slate modeled headphones which may be very cool, I don't know since I haven't tried them yet. But being new, they haven't been vetted the way the 650s have. And this makes them risky to purchase sight unseen.

It's almost unprecedented to have to select headphones without trying them first. At least fpr a pro. And that's half the point with the HD650s. There really is no other set of headphones that has been so widely used, widely vetted, and widely endorsed. And for someone having to make a blind purchase, that is really important in terms of reducing risk.

EDIT: I should point out that I no longer use HD-650s to mix on. I switched to Audeze a few years ago and love them. But they were almost $2000. A little out of the OP's budget.


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## Zero&One (Dec 6, 2020)

For me I had to consider, price, sound obviously, comfort and functionality. Two I can't due to covid.

The HD's certainly had great reviews as you say, but it also seems to vary between models. Again I can't try them, so I was back to square one it felt.
I'd also be faced with further software purchases to compliment them.

After reading most of the GS thread and vi-c and I found the VSX's only real complaint was the build, not bad, but not top-end build quality. As the package would cost me the same as phones+software I went that option.

Normally I wouldn't blind buy, but crazy times n all.


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## tebling (Dec 6, 2020)

Even though they've been discontinued, I've been using my HD580s for 18 years (replacing pads and cables along the way) and my ears have more or less calibrated to them. While I prefer using them for composition and initial mixing over speakers, I always check my mixes with monitors in a treated room running room correction EQ. The headphones get remarkably close though - usually bass < 80Hz is the only problem area.


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## PJMorgan (Dec 6, 2020)

I recently got a set of AKG K702'S & they're definitely a major upgrade from my trusty old Beyerdynamic DT250's. I originally got the closed back DT250's for tracking & mixing duties but since I've been doing mostly mixing with VI's lately I thought it was time to get headphones for that purpose only.

So far the 702's seem very accurate with a pretty detailed sound stage making it easy to pin point instrument placement. I haven't had them long but I'm really looking forward to doing some night time mixing with them, of course mixing will be finished of with my Adam monitors.


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## Thundercat (Dec 6, 2020)

FabTramp said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I hope you guys are all well under this crazy times!!
> 
> ...


Get the Sennheisers for a steal here: https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-sennheiser-hd6xx

They also are currently offering an additional 20% off.

This company worked with Sennheiser, and Sennheiser makes them. They are the same headphones but are called 6xx. I got a pair and they are wonderful.

A bit heavy on the bass but you'll have to correct any headphones with some reference software tbh.

Good luck!


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## labornvain (Dec 6, 2020)

Zero&One said:


> For me I had to consider, price, sound obviously, comfort and functionality. Two I can't due to covid.
> 
> The HD's certainly had great reviews as you say, but it also seems to vary between models. Again I can't try them, so I was back to square one it felt.
> I'd also be faced with further software purchases to compliment them.
> ...


 After reading this thread I decided to go over and do a deep dive into the vsx headphones. They look really cool and fun to play with. I hope they're comfortable.

One thing though, not that it matters now, there is only one model -- HD650. And they don't need any software to use.

The trick to mixing is to find a set of speakers or headphones you like an use them long enough so that you know exactly what everything is supposed to sound like on that system. Then you will reach a point where you are no longer surprised when you go out and play your audio on different systems.

This takes time, experience and consistency. I've been mixing on the same Tannoy monitors for 25 years now. I rarely ever get surprised when I play my music on different systems anymore. Be it a car, a phone or earbuds.

Just something to keep in mind when you're experimenting with all of those different models the vsx system provides.


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## Thundercat (Dec 6, 2020)

Zero&One said:


> For me I had to consider, price, sound obviously, comfort and functionality. Two I can't due to covid.
> 
> The HD's certainly had great reviews as you say, but it also seems to vary between models. Again I can't try them, so I was back to square one it felt.
> I'd also be faced with further software purchases to compliment them. Plus they are very comfortable to wear and sound fantastic.
> ...


Well I think you misunderstood. EVERY pair of headphones distorts the audio on some way. Any model you choose you should consider corrective EQ software to compensate for the distortions that particular headphone brings. Or as another poster mentioned use them long enough that you know how they distort so you can compensate in your mixes. The HD650s are very highly regarded and many mix on them.

Plus they are very comfortable to wear and sound fantastic. I think you jumped the gun.

In any case, good luck with your new pair.


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## Ndee (Dec 7, 2020)

labornvain said:


> Don't be ridiculous. I would wager that more records have been mixed on the HD650 than any other set of headphones. I don't possess the statistical data to back that up. But as an audio engineer who's been working in studios for over 30 years, based on my experience, it's a safe bet.



I totally agree with this, even if I'm the one also flying the flag for VSX. Reason is, I didn't buy the Slates to be my headphones, I bought them to be my monitors. I imagine quite a few people here are in the same situation as me, ie. sound and music is my living but I'm not producing or recording pop hits, working from my home in a city where I can't afford to have a separate studio, which means I can't really change the acoustics save from some basic solutions. I earlier mentioned this, but it bears repeating - I bought a nice pair of pro speakers, tried another pair as well, and noticed they sound like crap in my semi-treated bedroom studio. With VSX, I can trust my mixes to translate. I have a pair of very lo-fi speakers just so I can give my ears a break.

I also have a pair of 650's which I use when I'm creating music and sounds with modular setup, or if I want to listen to a record or watch some video art with full concentration. I've also thought about, somewhere down the line, to spend 3-4k for high-end headhones+dac for sheer listening pleasure.



labornvain said:


> It's almost unprecedented to have to select headphones without trying them first. At least fpr a pro.



this is a bit off-topic, hope you dont mind...totally true what you're saying, but again, context matters. I think the reality with many of us precarious sound designers / composers for various media / sound peeps working somewhere between art, design, and music is far from ultra-professional.
for example, some of the most successful sound designers in my home country use cheap interfaces, whatever headphones they can grab (in their town where there's no place to test gear), and a pair of consumer-level genelecs at their living room and they're fine.

I would encourage anyone to not think they can't make a living unless they have Crane Song converters and other high-end gear. Even with headphones and speakers, I'd say they are way down the list below essentials such as work ethic, being decent around your team members, delivering on time, and concentrating in what you're doing.

This is why VSX fees like such a terrific solution to freelancers like myself who mostly work on the fly, in varying conditions and can't spend thousands in gear, with acoustic treatment out of the quesiton. An OK interface (ie. most interaces today) + VSX is an absolutely functional solution for a great number of people working with sound and music today outside the higher echelons of production.

hope this makes sense! as said, i think you're right, i'm only elaborating. edit - might be good to add this comes from 15+ years of trying to make it and somehow mangaging to eke out a living as a sound designer etc.  good luck to you all! Don't stress it too much!


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## Zero&One (Dec 7, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> Well I think you misunderstood. EVERY pair of headphones distorts the audio on some way. Any model you choose you should consider corrective EQ software to compensate for the distortions that particular headphone brings. Or as another poster mentioned use them long enough that you know how they distort so you can compensate in your mixes. The HD650s are very highly regarded and many mix on them.
> 
> Plus they are very comfortable to wear and sound fantastic. I think you jumped the gun.
> 
> In any case, good luck with your new pair.



Not really, I understand the concept so I had to factor that into my buying decision. As every set of cans will be new to me, so I'd have to use any of them for months/years to compensate. 
I see the high praise of them certainly. But even this thread throws up several other options that all have equally great reports. Hence, going around in circles.
So, the VSX's just seemed a good choice with phones/software being tightly coupled together. For me that is.

Comfort... I hope so. I'd be gambling on any set as my head resembles a deflated beach ball.


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## SupremeFist (Dec 7, 2020)

labornvain said:


> Don't be ridiculous. I would wager that more records have been mixed on the HD650 than any other set of headphones. I don't possess the statistical data to back that up. But as an audio engineer who's been working in studios for over 30 years, based on my experience, it's a safe bet.


Sorry if you think it's ridiculous to point out that audio engineers in studios do not try to mix on headphones. Obviously they mix on the big monitors in the treated space (and sure, check details on headphones).


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## cmillar (Dec 7, 2020)

The Sonarworks software works great when needed. Can't imagine being without it. 

I use the Beyerdynamic 770 headphone profile they provide. No complaints.


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## Thundercat (Dec 7, 2020)

Zero&One said:


> Not really, I understand the concept so I had to factor that into my buying decision. As every set of cans will be new to me, so I'd have to use any of them for months/years to compensate.
> I see the high praise of them certainly. But even this thread throws up several other options that all have equally great reports. Hence, going around in circles.
> So, the VSX's just seemed a good choice with phones/software being tightly coupled together. For me that is.
> 
> Comfort... I hope so. I'd be gambling on any set as my head resembles a deflated beach ball.


Cool. What software are you referring to that is tightly integrated with the VSX’s?


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## Synetos (Dec 7, 2020)

I know you stated you have a lower price target, but the Sennheiser HD800 S Reference Headphones have been a delight for use in my studio. I can wear them for long periods of time, they are openback, so they breath, and the frequency response is far better than my studio mains. I worry less about how well treated my control room is now. My room is only 18 x 12 x 8, so it is not really that great for mixing, even though I have it well treated.

You can check everything with these with a frequency response: 4 – 51,000 Hz

If I had to choose between spending $5000+ on my studio speakers and room treatment, or get the HD800s, I would choose the headphones. I would go with less expensive studio monitor solution and put the money into my headphones. They make my mixing space be anywhere. Comfy and sound fantastic.

I also bought the Abbey Road Studio 3 plugin from waves to help with a more natural cross-bleed mixing feel.


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## SupremeFist (Dec 7, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> Cool. What software are you referring to that is tightly integrated with the VSX’s?


VSX is a pair of headphones plus a plugin, tailored to the specific response of those headphones, that does the emulation of different speakers/rooms.


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## Zero&One (Dec 7, 2020)

^^ what he said


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## labornvain (Dec 7, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Sorry if you think it's ridiculous to point out that audio engineers in studios do not try to mix on headphones. Obviously they mix on the big monitors in the treated space (and sure, check details on headphones).


 Sorry dude. I thought you were making a specific statement about the HD650s in particular. Yes, most pro engineers working in treated control rooms mostly mix on speakers, although it's been my experience that people mostly use near field monitors.


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## SupremeFist (Dec 7, 2020)

labornvain said:


> Sorry dude. I thought you were making a specific statement about the HD650s in particular. Yes, most pro engineers working in treated control rooms mostly mix on speakers, although it's been my experience that people mostly use near field monitors.


Sure, no offence taken! (And I like my 650s too...) Plus, one setup in VSX is a pair of NS10s.


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## Marsen (Dec 7, 2020)

+1 for 880 Pro but the Sennheiser will be fine too.


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## Thundercat (Dec 7, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> VSX is a pair of headphones plus a plugin, tailored to the specific response of those headphones, that does the emulation of different speakers/rooms.


Very cool. Thx for sharing.


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## shropshirelad (Dec 7, 2020)

John Longley said:


> I don't use headphones for anything critical, but if I had to mix on some-- I enjoy my Audeze LCD-X. I like my HD650s for long periods as they sound reasonable and are light weight.


I have the same pairing and would also recommend the 650's as a solid choice within the OP's budget.


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