# Multimbral/Multi Output Logic and VEP?



## procreative (Apr 30, 2018)

Here is my goal: load a Multi of Kontakt instruments inside Vienna Ensemble Pro and have control of each instrument via its own Midi channel and route independent audio back to Logic.

So far I have always used the 1 Logic Track / 1 Kontakt instance approach (even if the items inside have multiple Kontakt patches).

Exploring with VEP having a family of instruments eg Violin 1, Violin 2, Viola, Cello, Bass inside one VEP instance.

Now I know the convention is Multitimbral Track in Logic with a Multi Output plugin then create AUX tracks in the Logic Mixer.

What happens if you just use the Multi Output plugin then create AUX tracks in the Logic Mixer? I can see they still have separate Midi channels when you "Create Tracks From Auxes". Am I able to record and process Midi on each Aux Track?

The reason I ask is that when you use the conventional method you end up with two faders for each track one for the Multitimbral slot and one for the audio. Do I have to do it this way and what are the pros/cons?


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 30, 2018)

yes it works. There are actually three ways to do it. I wrote a lengthy epistle with pros and cons about this on another forum, I will try to find it. But basically


you can use multi-instruments in the environment, which is the method that creates the separate midi tracks. There are pros and cons to that, a pro is that you can have virtually unlimited number of midi tracks, a con is that you will have twice as many tracks, half of them midi only. By the way, midi tracks can NOT host midifx plugins, in case that is an issue.
you can use the method that LPX does when you use the new tracks wizard to create a multi-timbral instrument track. It doesn't use the environment multi-instrument, what it does there is to create one instrument channel that is hosting the vienna plugin, then it creates in the enivornment a bunch of channel strip objects that all point to the same underlying inst object. Strange I know, but that's how it works. you end up with one mixer channel in the mixer view showing your instrument, which you can click the + button to see the auxes, etc. The tracks view shows a bunch of tracks that look like normal instrument tracks, but they all point to the same underlying instrument, the left side channel inspector will show the same instrument no matter which one you select. The AUX channels in the mixer view do not have to be associated with tracks above in this mode. Use the new tracks wizard too see what it does. One con of this mode that I have found is that the labeling and icons on the first mixer channel associated with the actual instrument, will eventually be wrong when you start trying to label things, there is a bug in LPX. 
The other way you mentioned is you just create a normal instrument track and then add the axes with the + button and the select those mixer channels and use the local menu to create tracks from channels. Then LPX is smart enough to know you can record onto those tracks and it figures out which midi channel to use and which instrument to use and sends it to the right place in the instrument. This method doesn't have the labeling problems and seems to work better with track stacking in some way, and the AUX tracks are directly linked to the tracks above. Nice, but there is a gotcha with that method too, which is that the track midi delay can't be altered on each track, only on the main one for the instrument channel.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 30, 2018)

Here's the epistle I mentioned: 

https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=132635&start=40#p697195


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## procreative (Apr 30, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Here's the epistle I mentioned: https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=132635&start=40#p697195



Good stuff.

Trying to decide whether to create Multitimbral setups in VEP and basically submix them there into one stereo feed into Logic. In my mind an orchestral section may not really need audio mixing once balanced as any subtleties can be addressed with midi ccs on a per midi track basis.

I also cannot decide whether the CPU load is worse. I know Logic handles cores better splitting instruments, but I consider that once you get into the realms of large templates that starts to become a moot point.

I am trying to rationalise the amount of VEP instances needed to cut down connect/disconnect times between projects as its got to a stupid extent.

I am not at my studio computer right now so my other machine is not able to run the latest Logic, wondered if Articulation Sets work on Auxes or whether all use the same Set as the master track much like Midi FX?

I think I am veering towards not using Multi Output and sticking with Multitimbral only.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 30, 2018)

Articulation sets work but I can’t remember if there is anything weird about the aux track approach. They work in midi tracks too.

I personally think it’s a good idea to setup orch mixing in VEP.  All the positioning and stuff can probably be much the same across many projects. Also all the settings in VEP ARE saved with the LPX project no different then other plugins when they save all their parameter, that includes all the submixing. So why not? Lots of advantages to that.

You can keep them as stereo back into LPX or it’s easy enough to add a couple aux tracks on an as needed basis to mix a couple of parts in LPX if you want to or to bounce to audio tracks


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## whinecellar (Apr 30, 2018)

procreative said:


> ...create Multitimbral setups in VEP and basically submix them there into one stereo feed into Logic. In my mind an orchestral section may not really need audio mixing once balanced as any subtleties can be addressed with midi ccs on a per midi track basis...



^ This. All day long. I have detailed my setup countless times here now - I wish I did a better job of keeping track of the threads! Anyway, this method - after a LOT of trial and error over the years - works perfectly for me. I run a ~780 track Logic template on a 2014 MacBook Pro Retina with 16 GB RAM and a few VEP slaves. 

Quite frankly, jumping through all the complicated routing hoops, using aux tracks and multiple outputs, etc., is overkill and unnecessary for a purely orchestral template. Set it up once, premix everything in VEP, use simple stereo instances, and you’re good to go. You nailed it in the quote above. If you want to process a part further, do a quick bounce in place and move on.

You’re welcome.


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## procreative (May 4, 2018)

whinecellar said:


> ^ This. All day long. I have detailed my setup countless times here now - I wish I did a better job of keeping track of the threads! Anyway, this method - after a LOT of trial and error over the years - works perfectly for me. I run a ~780 track Logic template on a 2014 MacBook Pro Retina with 16 GB RAM and a few VEP slaves.
> 
> Quite frankly, jumping through all the complicated routing hoops, using aux tracks and multiple outputs, etc., is overkill and unnecessary for a purely orchestral template. Set it up once, premix everything in VEP, use simple stereo instances, and you’re good to go. You nailed it in the quote above. If you want to process a part further, do a quick bounce in place and move on.
> 
> You’re welcome.



Do you use any Play stuff or VIs where the only way to get the Keyswitch like behaviour is to stack them by Midi channel in a Multi?

Do you treat these differently? As the only method I can see to deal with say Hollywood Strings is to load up max 16 channels in a Play instance for a section instrument eg Violins 1.

The only way to address any other plugin instances in a viframe is via Midi Ports and using Logic the only way to do this is using VSL's Multiport environment which is a kludge and a bit of a maintenance headache. 

I know Dewdman has posted elsewhere about a solution to the note dropouts issue with the Multiport environment.

But I am veering towards just keeping Play stuff as 1 VEP instance per section.

Also wonder how Logic performs with instances loaded with 4 or 5 KS instruments?


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## whinecellar (May 4, 2018)

@procreative - my whole template is made of 16-channel multis, whether Play or Kontakt. And yeah, I split them by instrument type. For example, one multi consists of 16 channels of HW Strings violins. Some are KS patches, some are just different articulations - doesn’t really matter. 

I’ve never used any “Multiport” or other 3rd party solutions - I’ve never needed to. I just keep it simple. Well, other than running a template with 780 VIs across 5 computers of course. 

...but it works perfectly!


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## procreative (May 4, 2018)

whinecellar said:


> @procreative - my whole template is made of 16-channel multis, whether Play or Kontakt. And yeah, I split them by instrument type. For example, one multi consists of 16 channels of HW Strings violins. Some are KS patches, some are just different articulations - doesn’t really matter.
> 
> I’ve never used any “Multiport” or other 3rd party solutions - I’ve never needed to. I just keep it simple. Well, other than running a template with 780 VIs across 5 computers of course.
> 
> ...but it works perfectly!



Good to hear!

I think my plan is to combine libraries where they use KS for most of the patches. For example I have Sable and to get access to all 32 articulations I need about 4 KS patches for each section instrument.

At the moment I have one instance for each section, but if I combine them...

However I would need to have each section probably using a separate instance of Kontakt so 5 instances in a VEP instance. Is that what you do? Or do you have them in one Kontakt instance?

Reason I ask is Sable would likely need 20 slots, so I either split them like so or use the banks in Kontakt as I only need 5 midi channels (but Ive never used banks before).


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## tmhuud (May 4, 2018)

whinecellar said:


> I’ve never used any “Multiport” or other 3rd party solutions - I’ve never needed to. I just keep it simple. Well, other than running a template with 780 VIs across 5 computers of course.
> 
> ...but it works perfectly!


jim, do you leave everything on 24/7?


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## whinecellar (May 4, 2018)

@procreative - I use a single Kontakt or Play multitimbral instance (with 16 patches each) in each instance of VEP. And each is by library. So, 1 VEP instance would be a 16-channel PLAY multi of HW Strings violins. Another might be my LASS violins, and so on. 

@tmhuud - yeah, my whole studio stays on 24/7, especially while working on a project. I will power my slaves down however if I’m not working on something huge… I have a more streamlined template I can run on just my main machine. By yeah, generally my slaves just sit there fully loaded 24/7 much of the time!


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## procreative (May 4, 2018)

whinecellar said:


> @procreative - I use a single Kontakt or Play multitimbral instance (with 16 patches each) in each instance of VEP. And each is by library. So, 1 VEP instance would be a 16-channel PLAY multi of HW Strings violins. Another might be my LASS violins, and so on.
> 
> @tmhuud - yeah, my whole studio stays on 24/7, especially while working on a project. I will power my slaves down however if I’m not working on something huge… I have a more streamlined template I can run on just my main machine. By yeah, generally my slaves just sit there fully loaded 24/7 much of the time!



Okay, thanks.

I am trying to rationalise the amount of VEP server connections. My aim was to group a whole library in one VEP server instance in cases where they use KS patches or several KS patches.

As an example, to load all of Sable (SCS) I need a total of 18 KS patches. Obviously too many for one Kontakt multi and to maintain level control inside VEP they need to be on separate channels.

So as a test I setup:

1. 1 x VEP server rack with 4 channels each with a Kontakt plugin 
2. Each Kontakt is set to receive on a separate midi channel
3. All get sent to Stereo Out 1/2 of VEP

Back in Logic I set up a Multitimbral VEP of 5 parts.

All works fine, but I wonder if I might cause CPU issues? Or is that irrelevant in a large template?

And I also wonder if having 4 Kontakt plugins in VEP is best way? Other options are 1 Kontakt with patches split on to 1-16 and 17-32 of the Banks Tabs in Kontakt and route them to channels in VEP by using a Kontalt Multi Output?

Its all pros and cons.

Previously I had each instrument Violin 1, Violin 2 as a separate VEP instance. But it strikes me there might be efficiencies in using only one connection to VEP from Logic in terms of connection times?

Obviously Play stuff HAS to be split as they dont have KS patches (or at least ones with all articulations).

Only asking as I know from your other posts you have a large template and have experimented a lot.


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## Dewdman42 (May 4, 2018)

procreative said:


> Its all pros and cons.


This ^^^^^^



> Previously I had each instrument Violin 1, Violin 2 as a separate VEP instance. But it strikes me there might be efficiencies in using only one connection to VEP from Logic in terms of connection times?
> 
> Obviously Play stuff HAS to be split as they dont have KS patches (or at least ones with all articulations).
> 
> Only asking as I know from your other posts you have a large template and have experimented a lot.



I personally think you can find numerous ways to make things more efficient if you can combine things into less instances. For example, many opportunities to share reverb busses more often. Also, the more stuff you can pack into a single instance of a player, the more samples will be shared. Obviously in terms of streaming, the more you can combine things into less streams, then that is less network bandwidth.

As you said, every approach has pros and cons and depends a lot on how you like to work too.

Myself I am leaning more and more towards the idea of having less instances. Whether or not I need to use VEP's multi ports to accomplish that is something yet to be determined. A dozen instances is not so bad and if you only need 192 tracks, then 16 channels spread to 12 instances is not too bad. Keeps it simple. If you want more tracks in a huge template, then me personally I'd rather try to get multi-port working to keep my VEP instance count down to a dozen or less. Hell, I think for small track-count projects I'd rather use multi-port into a single VEP instance just because I will have a single mixer on VEP to mix with. I like that idea a lot.

But everyone is different. I think a lot of people got scared off from multi-port because there were a lot of failed attempts with it when it came out and since. VSL never really fixed it right. I don't even know for sure if my work around will work with a large template until I hear from someone that it is. So there is that... In fact today I realized that I might need to make one small change to it tonight when I get home. But if it does work..then why not? Less VEP instances are probably a good thing.

On the other hand, there are disadvantages to using Multi-timbral tracks in LPX, including midi tracks like the multi-port template...for example if you depend on Scripting to handle articulations, then a lot more tracks have to funnel through a single script...making it that much more complicated to sort out and handle correctly.


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## procreative (May 5, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> This ^^^^^^
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To address Sable which has 5 sections I need 18-19 KS instruments.

What do you think is more efficient RAM wise? Having 4 Kontakt plugin instances in a VEP instance or 1 Kontakt plugin instance with all 18 inside? And if I use a Multi Output version to split them inside VEP is that any more efficient?

Is there a simple way to check memory usage of the entire VEP instance? Or is it marginal?


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## Saxer (May 5, 2018)

Im my experience the less midi information goes to a single VEPro instance the better it works in Logic. Not from the VEPro side but from Logic. Having a busy full string section going with lots of CC data into one VEPro plugin in Logic sooner or later causes some CPU madness. Don't know why because the CPU load is outsourced to VEPro. But it happens.
I tend to put all samples for one instrument into a single instance. i.e. violins one, but in VEPro it can have all SCS violins one loaded and all other violins one too if I work with different libraries (stacking etc). The second violins get another instance. Works much better here.

I have to admit that my last tests are a while ago so it might have changed over time with updates. At least I recommend to try a full multi instance in action before building a complete template around this concept.


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## procreative (May 5, 2018)

I tried a test last night. I set up a VEP instance with 5 Kontakt plugins with SCS/Sable V1, V2 etc split in each. I then created a Multimbral VEP set of 5 parts in Logic and connected.

Bare in mind this was on my 8GB Macbook Pro 17 2010 i7 2.66, but they seemed to play back fine.

Obviously this is just one VEP instance, but the CPU meter barely registered. Whether a full template works is another matter...

Cannot think of a way to do this for Hollywood Strings that does not involve the Multiport environment and not keen on that. Pity there are no other ways to trigger 16 midi channels in 5 instances of Play in one VEP rack.

If there were a way to address each Play plugin in VEP via CC without using the Multiport workaround?


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## Saxer (May 5, 2018)

Ok, if it works, it works!


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## procreative (May 5, 2018)

Well it works with one instance, but whether it will work with loads...

Trouble is there is only one way to find out and that means lots of work, lets hope its worth it!

I should add, the server connection in Logic was on my MacBook but the VEP instance was on my PC slave.

I also was sat in a completely different room using a power over ethernet connection to connect to the slave from my house (my studio is in an outbuilding) just out of curiosity.


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## Dewdman42 (May 5, 2018)

I am not sure if it’s possoble to use more then 16 midi channels within an instance of kontakt. Does vep access the A, B, C, D ports inside an instance of kontakt somehow? I was under the impression that only worked with kontakt standalone mode. But anyway yes if you could use more instruments inside a single kontakt instance then there is a possibility of sharing some samples in ram between instruments.

I want to make one other comment, I am currently of the opinion that when using the multi port template, the extra CC99 messages are generated very efficiently in the environment and then the vep AU plugin translates them into true midi ports before sending over the wire to the vep server. So it does not, IMHO, generate extra midi data on the net streaming nor in vep server itself, i don’t think. I don’t have a way to verify that, that just seems obvious to me how they did it. If you put a midi monitor on the vep server you won’t see any CC99 messages right in front of notes.


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## procreative (May 5, 2018)

I dont need more than 16 midi channels, just more than 16 slots as 3-4 of each instrument use the same channel as they are using UACC. But I see the Tab in Kontakt that says 1-6, 17-32 etc and thats what this is for.

I asked a question on your other thread about Multiport, just wondering how to use it with Logic generated multitimbral tracks.


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## Dewdman42 (May 5, 2018)

Yep try out what I suggested there. I am heading out for the day in a few minutes so will check in tonight


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## procreative (May 6, 2018)

So after a bit more experimenting found a major flaw for me using the Multi Instrument approach to grouping instrument families into one VEP instance:

I use a Midi FX script to automate CCs so I can use my MCU Pro to enter data and get feedback.

But Multi Instruments share Midi FX and the Smart Controls using the Midi FX script are channelised.

So to target say CC automation on the Multi Instrument on Channel 2, the script would need to be set to output on channel 2. I cannot see a way round this as Smart Controls/Scripts are shared between tracks in a Multi Instrument.

I have a script that shares CC data between channels but thats no good as it will send CC from another track as well.

Dont think there is a way round this, its either use my CC Automation or Multi Instruments but not both.


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## Saxer (May 6, 2018)

Ok... not good but good to know. Thanks!


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## Dewdman42 (May 6, 2018)

Yep. It’s even worse then that the script is on the vep inst channel which means all midi instruments funneled to that vep instance have to share that one midifx section. It’s definitely possible to write more sophisticated scripts that are aware of channels and even smart enough to monitor the ports in order to do what you want, but the scripts definitely become more complicated. I really wish logic would let us put midifx on midi tracks.

I am planning to update my channelizerclone script so that it will work in this scenario but I don’t know when it will be done.


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## Dewdman42 (May 6, 2018)

procreative said:


> So to target say CC automation on the Multi Instrument on Channel 2, the script would need to be set to output on channel 2. I cannot see a way round this as Smart Controls/Scripts are shared between tracks in a Multi Instrument.
> 
> I have a script that shares CC data between channels but thats no good as it will send CC from another track as well.
> 
> Dont think there is a way round this, its either use my CC Automation or Multi Instruments but not both.



If you want to send me your script I can try to take a look at it see if there is a way


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## Dewdman42 (May 6, 2018)

See this post for for some guidance on tweaking your Scripter scripts to work with Multi Port...

https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=137085#p703323


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## procreative (May 6, 2018)

I thought I had found a workaround using a Kontakt stock multiscript called Transformer to change the Midi Channel of the incoming CCs but then I realised it would apply to every CC.

I can attach the script, but I dont think there is any way round it. Because the script is on the main track any sub tracks share both Midi FX and Smart Controls.

You would need to have a separate version of every CC in every midi channel and as there are only 8 Smart Controls its a bit of an impossible task.

I got Multi Port working, but there are so many other compromises and irritations due to Logic's lack of features in these areas. It always seems like 1 step forward 2 back:

1. Midi FX
Only usable on instrument tracks as uniquely targeted

2. Audio FX
Only usable on instrument or audio tracks as uniquely targeted

3. Smart Controls
Only usable on instrument or audio tracks as uniquely targeted and hardware stops working once inside a Track Stack

4. Midi CC Feedback
Without major environment hacks only possible with CC automation via hacking Midi FX, but then you hit the above limitations

5. Midi Tracks
No individual Mute or Solo, no audio FX without Auxes or other kludges.

I was so pleased with myself stumbling on the CC automation as with an MCU there is a Smart Control layer and flipping the faders brought motorised faders with track labels and recall/track follow. But then it comes at the cost of a whole raft of other obstacles such as Track Stacks, Multitimbral limitations.

Instead of sorting these fundamental features out Apple fixate on things like Drummer.

AU3 is there, it just needs to be implemented by VSL then most of the above becomes irrelevant.

Thats not to take away from your very admirable scripting prowess.

The trouble with a lot of these workarounds is that the headache of implementing and maintaining them ends up being more work than the workflow improvements they hope to achieve. Thats the pros and cons of software, with hardware you were limited only by wiring skills or you just lived with it, with software you often have the carrot of being able to tailor things only to be dashed by a fundamental design flaw that maybe you are the only one to have an issue with which might never ever get fixed (I mean been hoping VEP becomes NKS ready but that wont ever happen at this rate).


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## Dewdman42 (May 6, 2018)

all good points. I appreciate the challenge of trying to solve this so I will continue to work on it, but I do not disagree really at all...

One thing though, even when VSL comes out with AU3, that will not change the fact that you have to funnel many midi tracks through a single VEP instance...and only one script for that inst channel. This limitation in LPX will still fundamentally make it difficult to do Scripter or other midifx processing on multi-timbral instruments, and will just be complicated even more by AU3 enabling more ports.

I think the only thing that is stopping your stuff from being possible here is that you're using smart controls and as you noted you only have 8 of them for the whole inst channel. So that alone means, regardless of AU3, you need to stick to using more inst tracks to more VEP instances and stop fussing with it.

What VSL would need to do in order to support LPX better is to make it possible to have two AU3 plugin instances that are able to connect to the same VEP server instance. I do not believe this is possible right now and I doubt they will do that either. But if they did that then we could create as many inst channels as we want in LPX(up to 256), and could have all of them connecting to the same VEP server instance using different midi ports.. I think that is the only way we can get our nirvana of being able to use lots of different smart controls and Scripter scripts on different tracks on the LPX side.


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## Dewdman42 (May 6, 2018)

A copule more clarifications



procreative said:


> I got Multi Port working, but there are so many other compromises and irritations due to Logic's lack of features in these areas. It always seems like 1 step forward 2 back:


more reasons to avoid it like the plague. 



> 4. Midi CC Feedback
> Without major environment hacks only possible with CC automation via hacking Midi FX, but then you hit the above limitations


Don't understand this point?



> 5. Midi Tracks
> No individual Mute or Solo, no audio FX without Auxes or other kludges.


this actually no. You can mute midi tracks going to midi and multi-instruments, as in the multi port template. You can't mute the multi-timbral tracks that are created by the new tracks wizard for multi-timbral..becuase those are all pointing to the same inst channel and share the same mute/solo buttons. But the mute button on normal midi tracks mutes the midi, which can be useful too.



> Instead of sorting these fundamental features out Apple fixate on things like Drummer.


agreed.



> AU3 is there, it just needs to be implemented by VSL then most of the above becomes irrelevant.


see above, that won't fix our problem, it will just eliminate the need for the crazy environment macro stuff and using CC99 to drive it.



> The trouble with a lot of these workarounds is that the headache of implementing and maintaining them ends up being more work than the workflow improvements they hope to achieve. Thats the pros and cons of software, with hardware you were limited only by wiring skills or you just lived with it, with software you often have the carrot of being able to tailor things only to be dashed by a fundamental design flaw that maybe you are the only one to have an issue with which might never ever get fixed (I mean been hoping VEP becomes NKS ready but that wont ever happen at this rate).


agreed. There are a lot of things I really like about Logic, but we are spending a lot of time now trying to work around some limitations it has, particularly in the area of how to route midi and audio around, something which is braindead straightforward on some other hosts. But on the other hand, none of them have articulation id's, nor a scripter plugin...so...tradeoffs...


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## procreative (May 6, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Don't understand this point?



Well I became obsessed in trying to find a way to have a motorised fader that like with audio had Track Scribble Strips and the faders picked up the correct position from the track focused. Mod wheels are great, but then you have to wiggle them to get them to sync with the data on the track or the last used position of the VI.

Then with some of the more esoteric controllers you have to remember what bit of hardware does what etc.

So after loads of hunting around I discovered a Smart Control layer already existing in the MCU protocol.

So I thought, how do I target this? After discovering to my irritation that Midi CCs cannot be controlled by Smart Controls I stumbled on Unheardofskis script donated to a user on logicproforum (hes the guy that does logicscripts).

Its nothing groundbreaking but as my scripting skills are limited to butchering other peoples work...

Thought I had struck gold as using Smart Controls to drive Midi FX enabled motorised MCU controllers with feedback from Logic. Then I discovered Smart Controls limitations with Multitimbral, Midi Tracks, Tracks Stacks.

On balance I think I will stick with having loads of VEP instances as its the lesser of two evils as now I have the CC setup...

By the way multiport seems to work okay with these as every track is on midi channel 1, but the other workarounds to achieve that seem frought with their own limitations and annoyances.


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## procreative (May 6, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> What VSL would need to do in order to support LPX better is to make it possible to have two AU3 plugin instances that are able to connect to the same VEP server instance. I do not believe this is possible right now and I doubt they will do that either. But if they did that then we could create as many inst channels as we want in LPX(up to 256), and could have all of them connecting to the same VEP server instance using different midi ports.. I think that is the only way we can get our nirvana of being able to use lots of different smart controls and Scripter scripts on different tracks on the LPX side.



Well if the Event Input plugin worked it would solve this, it does the job but the CPU goes berserk as it puts the track into Live mode making all instruments play through one core.


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## Dewdman42 (May 6, 2018)

procreative said:


> Well if the Event Input plugin worked it would solve this, it does the job but the CPU goes berserk as it puts the track into Live mode making all instruments play through one core.



I need to look into that event plugin, I haven't messed with it yet due to reports like that. Maybe we need to pound on VSL more about fixing that, if that's what it does...then that is probably the right solution for LPX, not the multiport templates, which are more of a kludge.

why do you have to use smart controls for the Motorized faders? Is it just a matter of sending them CC? I guess its so that when you stop the transport, the smart control knows where it is so that that motorized faders will snap to whatever position on the timeline you go to.. yea?

I know you're at a point where you don't want to mess with this anymore...but...just one more suggestion..

you might be able to use automation to drive the motorized faders..which should snap (I think?), just like smart controls but you can have a lot more..then the key is how to interact with automation in Scripter...and there are two ways to do that. One is to make UI controls in scripter that have automation=true. They can be hidden controls...but this exposes the value of the automation parameter to the script.


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## procreative (May 6, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> I need to look into that event plugin, I haven't messed with it yet due to reports like that. Maybe we need to pound on VSL more about fixing that, if that's what it does...then that is probably the right solution for LPX, not the multiport templates, which are more of a kludge.
> 
> why do you have to use smart controls for the Motorized faders? Is it just a matter of sending them CC? I guess its so that when you stop the transport, the smart control knows where it is so that that motorized faders will snap to whatever position on the timeline you go to.. yea?
> 
> ...



Well I only tried the Event plugin yesterday out of curiosity, it works but due to Logic's CPU handling introduces overloads (I think there is a workaround using the I/O plugin which is not fullproof).

The main reason I opted for Smart Controls is because the MCU protocol already has a layer for them and so feedback of position, label and values is built in and attempting to do this in Logic is practically impossible (without major environment tweaks and lack of flexibility).

The MCU picks up whatever Smart Controls reside on a track.

But the MCU and every motorised controller just cannot control Midi CC (some do in a dumb non-motorised mode like the old Behringer one).

I seem to be in a tiny minority wanting faders with recall for midi cc, probably why nobody is trying to develop one.

That eternal quest for the "perfect" setup goes on...


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## Dewdman42 (May 6, 2018)

I guess mostly people are going with lemur and touchpad these days to get that feedback rather then motorized faders. But I guess that will open up another huge can of worms if and when I get to integrating lemur into all of this.

I don't think there is a perfect setup today, all of the various solutions seem to leave something hanging off unresolved...kind of frustrating..


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## procreative (May 6, 2018)

Well its a niche market with niche needs.

I use Lemur for articulation switching as I like labelled pads. I have tried all the usual things from hand labelled buttons, small keyboards, komplete kontrol.

If only there was a simple way to send the articulation names to Lemur, but after many hours I have templates with most of them and using Osculator I have a way to auto load them on track selection.

I guess some of us have this nature that say "why can't I" – its a dangerous time vortex sucking phenomena!!

Its still rather amazing that none of the DAWs are really optimised for multi layer sample libraries... yet.


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## Dewdman42 (May 8, 2018)

just wanted to update that I got the multi-port stuff working for anyone brave enough to try, info here: https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=137085


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## Saxer (May 9, 2018)

Thanks for sharing all that infos!

I just don't really understand where the benefit is compared to a simple and clean "one instance per instrument". VEPro works fine with lots of instances and Logics mixer looks easy and 'logic' with "one instrument = one midi track = one channel strip".
It also makes the import of instrument groups from other songs very easy. No clutter in the environment and working around bugs. Easy to expand by loading more instances. Better multi CPU spread too.
So why?


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## Dewdman42 (May 9, 2018)

You already answered your own question. The main benefit is less vep instances, if that is what you want. Theoretically you could do it with a single vep instance. Also you could have a template with thousands of tracks. There are pros and cons to every approach.


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## procreative (May 10, 2018)

I have not done extensive testing but I tried using the VEP "Event Input" plugin with the recommended workaround of adding an I/O plugin set to output but turned off.

Bear in mind I only tried this on a very small test, though it was via my MacBook with only about 4GB spare Ram and using a locally hosted instance of VEP.

I ran 3 tracks connected to 1 VEP Server Plugin and 2 VEP Event Input plugins. All were connected to one VEP instance with 3 Channels each with an instance of Kontakt and each set to a different Midi Port.

A little occasional CPU activity but no spikes, all 3 playing back a demented Ostinato and all 3 loaded with CSS KS patches.

Benefits (if it works) of using the Event Input plugin are that each Track is effectively a Software Instrument track so can have independent Audio FX, Midi FX, Automation.

Potential downsides (which I think affects any Multiport solution), all instruments connected with one Port use only one Core of the CPU. Whether this makes much odds if you are sensible and use it the way I intend.

Which is to put all 4 or 5 sections of a family eg all String Sections of CSS, into one VEP instance.

I tried using Midi Channels but seems automation is shared unless the tracks are independent and other than 1 Track = 1 VEP Instance, Multiport is the only way. However for me, Environment Multiport solutions have other downsides such as lack of independent Automation or Midi FX.

I can see the potential in this but without trying it on a larger template dont know what the downsides are yet. But having read some posts on VSL's site, it does seem since Logic 10.4 this method does work.


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## Dewdman42 (May 10, 2018)

one thing though, if you're using VEP as the instrument, it doesn't use much CPU anyway...so it doesn't really matter that much its on one core does it?


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## procreative (May 10, 2018)

Maybe. Was not sure if the audio streaming via VEP places an extra load.

Just dont know if its any good yet, initially there was a lot of flak about Event Input and so it led VEP to offering the environment hack. But from what I read 10.4 seemed to help improve it.

Its just such a pain that to find out for sure involves a lot of VEP/Template tinkering...

I commend you on your solution and if I did not need my CC automation hack, I would probably choose it as the safer bet. But for me I think its this one or nothing.


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## Saxer (May 10, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> one thing though, if you're using VEP as the instrument, it doesn't use much CPU anyway...so it doesn't really matter that much its on one core does it?


Theoretically yes. But in real live Logic needs a lot of CPU on the active channel when sending a lot of Midi into VEPro. Never understood why...


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## Dewdman42 (May 10, 2018)

procreative said:


> Maybe. Was not sure if the audio streaming via VEP places an extra load.
> 
> Just dont know if its any good yet, initially there was a lot of flak about Event Input and so it led VEP to offering the environment hack. But from what I read 10.4 seemed to help improve it.



I started to play around with the Event Input the other day to see what I could do with it, but I don't remember what happened, seems like I hit a wall...but if you get it working then great! Hey they are all options, its good to have options. pros and cons.

Interesting about the midi cpu hit..would be good to get some data with 10.4 and VEP6 and see where things are. if too much midi funneling through a single instruments a core bottleneck, that would impact multi-port also.


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## procreative (May 10, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> I started to play around with the Event Input the other day to see what I could do with it, but I don't remember what happened, seems like I hit a wall...but if you get it working then great! Hey they are all options, its good to have options. pros and cons.
> 
> Interesting about the midi cpu hit..would be good to get some data with 10.4 and VEP6 and see where things are. if too much midi funneling through a single instruments a core bottleneck, that would impact multi-port also.



Personally I think if you keep the Multiport usage to sensible levels such as no more than 5-8 ports I cannot see why in theory its any worse than several VEP instances doing the same thing.

Spreading the Core usage is not a bad idea, but surely once you get into the realms of large templates it becomes a moot point as you are going to be stressing all the cores anyway?

Its just hard to know if in real world use Multiport is better/worse than 1 VI = 1 VEP Instance. Certainly from a VEP server loading/unloading you would think Multiport would be a better route. But not if its performance is worse.

I also found the Multitimbral option worked okay, but the automation limitation didn't work for me.


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## procreative (May 10, 2018)

So here is some more info on my Multiport test:

MacBook Pro 17 i7 2010, OS SSD in SATA2 with Logic Pro 10.4.1 and about 3GB Ram Free after OS/Logic
PC Slave i7 3700 64GB Ram, SSDs in SATA3

So nothing special.

*VEP Instance 1*
5 Channels of Play each containing 11-15 Patches of Hollywood Strings 1 Channel per Port

*VEP Instance 2*
5 Channels of Kontakt each containing 3-5 KS Patches of Sable(SCS) 1 Channel per Port

So effectively equivalent of 10 VEP instances if connected 1 per VEP Track in Logic.

So programmed really quick midi with variety of articulations with all above tracks playing at same time (10 tracks). CPU barely hits maybe 5-10% on 3 of 4 cores. No glitches or dropouts.

However there is no way to Mute or Solo Tracks as they only seem to work on Master track of a VEP instance, probably because audio stream comes back through first track. Track On/Off in Logic Mutes given track as it turns off Midi.

Obviously could add AUX tracks to bring back audio, but then it starts to become cumbersome and streaming 5 audio streams per instance might be counterproductive?

Another option is to use VEP parameter automation to Solo/Mute the channels?

So all seems to behave its just the Mute/Solo issue as Track On/Off is not so instance and is more like Mute than Solo.


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## Dewdman42 (May 10, 2018)

Mute/Solo on the multiport templates SHOULD effect the midi and allow/disallow midi from being sent out to VEP on a track by track basis. I'm away from home to be able to test that. The track faders for those effect CC7 and mute/solo should be muting or soloing the actual midi. 

If you want to mute/solo the audio while the midi still goes to VEP, then yes you have to setup multi-channel audio coming back. Theoretically..... i can't test it right now.

Also want to point out that you can hide the midi channels from the mixer view by clicking on the buttons across the top of the mixer that decide which types of channels to display. That will show/hide the midi channels, which for the most part you probably don't care about viewing in the mixer.


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## procreative (May 10, 2018)

Using the Event Input plugin, Mute/Solo certainly greys out the Midi, but it still seems to play.


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## Dewdman42 (May 10, 2018)

If you're using the multi-timbral tracks the way Logic sets it up with the new tracks wizard...then mute/solo effects the whole instrument where VEP is hosted. if you're doing it that way with Event Input somehow, then yes...mute solo is effecting the whole VEP instrument., i'm not sure if VEP could be automated somehow for that.. I'm not that familliar with the Event Input thing or how it works to comment further. 

If you want to use multi-timbral tracks a different way that doesn't have that problem then you have to create aux channels and create tracks for channels, etc..and then each aux track will have proper mute/solo.


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## procreative (May 10, 2018)

In this example, there are 5 Software Instrument Tracks (its not Multitimbral). Track 1 has VEP Server plugin, the other 4 have the Event Input plugin.

But it seems they behave as if all Midi is going via the first Track as although Mute greys out the Midi on that track, it still seems to route to the VEP track.

I agree its likely you would need to add Auxes it seems to gain control over Mute/Solo.

Its just that doing that and using Multi Output probably starts to negate the gain from using Multiport to save on resources and speed up server connections.

Its just nice to be able to Solo a part during writing.

Pff, every choice leaves things compromised...


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## Dewdman42 (May 10, 2018)

you could create multi instruments that in turn point to the instrument channels holding the event input plugin. Then you could mute/solo the midi tracks before they get to the event input plugin.


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## procreative (May 11, 2018)

So I tried it, Mute works that way but not Solo.

Also FYI, if you use Multi Output with the Event Input plugin, it starts glitching. Works fine with standard Stereo Output version.

I think regrettably I am going to stick with 1 VEP Instance = 1 Logic Software Instrument Track.

Reason being independent Smart Controls, Midi FX, Solo and Mute.

It feels like 2 steps forward and 3 back. I realised I would miss being able to Solo a track, vital if processing or adjusting a line.

Of course I am sure there is a way to program VEP automation but thats a whole other cumbersome headache.

I could have used Multitimbral for all my Kontakt ones that have KS patches, but then automation does not work independently. Again too many compromises...

Just seems at every turn there are major cons with anything other than Software Intrument tracks eg Auxes, Midi FX, Mute/Solo, extra channels addressing the same track etc.


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## procreative (May 11, 2018)

One thing I did just discover, you can solo a track by using the key command Control M. It seems to Solo the midi. Also Control M mutes all the midi. If you select a specific region and use these it just applies to that region.

Now I wonder if I can get my Mackie MCU to use its Solo buttons for both S and Control S?

So there is hope yet...


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## procreative (May 11, 2018)

Okay so now I understand whats going on. Control S is actually called Solo Mode (its also present on an MCU).

Using this Key Command, basically any tracks (or regions) you select get Soloed. Instead of using the Solo button, you just select the tracks you want in Solo. 

Either deselecting them or using the Control S command to switch out of Solo mode puts the whole mix back on.

You learn something new!

So I might be able to make this work (and by the way this works with Event Input plugins too, in fact any Multitimbral or Multiport track).


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## Dewdman42 (May 14, 2018)

Did you ever get it all working to your satisfaction? I just got back from a mini vacation and messed around with Event Input a bit...Personally I found it to be dropping some notes here and there... I also was not able to get any success with the Solo/Mute buttons, including trying with the environment tricks I suggested earlier...


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## procreative (May 14, 2018)

Zikes! Hope I have not missed dropped notes, I have only done a test with 4-5 tracks playing a 4 bar passage.

As per my previous post, there is a "Solo Mode", think you can click the S symbol in the Transport display or use Control S. Then any tracks you select or shift select will be soloed including Multiport tracks.

It greys out the Midi of other tracks but unlike regular Solo actually stops the Midi playing. Similarly Control M actually Mutes midi in Multiport tracks.

Also did you add an I/O plugin on to the Event Input track? See p59 of VEP Manual.

I did find glitches if I tried to use Multi Output Kontakt, but an Instance of several regular Stereo plugins seemed fine. In my case I am treating all of one family as one Audio pair for overall volume as with Midi really you have so many other ways to balance levels.

Hopefully this will work as I have started making Multiport versions of my VEP projects.


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## Dewdman42 (May 14, 2018)

Nope I didn't add the IO plugin and I see now that is a requirement, which is why it ends up being on one core I guess. I just got some dropped notes noodling around on the keyboard, but maybe its related to not doing that IO plugin step.


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## procreative (May 14, 2018)

I hope so! Otherwise I just wasted about 6 hours...


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