# Pro Tools 2020



## John Longley (Jan 16, 2020)

Initial report is......folders.

And bug fixes. 

Thrilling times at Avid.


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## STec (Jan 16, 2020)

I’m very excited about folders. It’s perfect to group all the mics per instruments:


```
Flute:
    close mic
    tree mic
    ambient mic

...
```


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## John Longley (Jan 16, 2020)

STec said:


> I’m very excited about folders. It’s perfect to group all the mics per instruments:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


I understand folders. I've had them in various DAWs for years. What it isn't is justification for a major version, especially with what they're charging for Ultimate... I keep hoping they'll step up, but nope...


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## ChazC (Jan 16, 2020)

Too little, too late.

What I do find laughable is the big fanfare blog post about it on the Avid site - just about every other DAW has had them since forever, it's been top of the requested features list since the Idea Scale started & Avid still thinks it's required to put up full instructions & usage directions. It's also funny that on the DUC, everyone who has been banging on about folder tracks is now screaming for ARA! 

I stopped updating HD with version 11 and let my vanilla license lapse last year. The last straw for me was them stopping the re-reinstatement option (even though they were extortionate). The only reason PT is still on my system is for client compatibility.


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## John Longley (Jan 16, 2020)

ChazC said:


> Too little, too late.
> 
> What I do find laughable is the big fanfare blog post about it on the Avid site - just about every other DAW has had them since forever, it's been top of the requested features list since the Idea Scale started & Avid still thinks it's required to put up full instructions & usage directions. It's also funny that on the DUC, everyone who has been banging on about folder tracks is now screaming for ARA!
> 
> I stopped updating HD with version 11 and let my vanilla license lapse last year. The last straw for me was them stopping the re-reinstatement option (even though they were extortionate). The only reason PT is still on my system is for client compatibility.


I've been on PT at least some of the time since v5 and I'm not going beyond 2018. I should have stopped at 9.


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## X-Bassist (Jan 16, 2020)

If you mix entire films in PT (Dialog, Music, SFX, Foley, Backgrounds, Fx...) Folders are a big deal. But I'm betting they held off on this to add something to 2020. At this point they will do a "major" update every year, and like apple, will change less and less each time. The fact that they still hve something major like this to add (presets with 2018, gain reduction meters with 2019) this by comparison is huge. Although doubling the price of upgrades and updates is a low blow for those that own it. AFAIK the reinstatement plans are still sold, they are just more expensive. Ultimate is $2600 new, upgrade from regular PT $1900, Reinstatement plan $999, yearly updates are $399/yr. Crazy.

Edit: actually found a graph explaining the price changes last July. Not as bad as I thought, but PT standard update plan did double. Ultimate didn't change as much, but those prices are still crazy. The artical actually compares long term costs of buy perpetual license vs. renting, owning is a bit cheaper unless you don't need it all the time.








How Will Avid Pro Tools Price Changes Effect You?


Avid will be increasing prices on certain Pro Tools software products on July 1st, 2019. Find out what's going on by reading our blog.




vintageking.com


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## mscp (Jan 16, 2020)

Pro Tools the Uber Eats of Post. It's a delivery service. Cubase/Logic/Reaper is your restaurant.


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## X-Bassist (Jan 16, 2020)

Phil81 said:


> Pro Tools the Uber Eats of Post. It's a delivery service. Cubase/Logic/Reaper is your restaurant.


If you are just composing music, yes. But if you work in post- Dialog, SFX, mixing... it's the only restaurant open. Can't wait until someone comes up with a comperable replacement (or someone buys out Avid). I have used Cubase/Logic/Reaper and for editing hundreds of audio tracks and mixing they are not in the same league unfortunately. Hopefully someday.

I keep downloading AU/VST versions of my 200+ AAX plugins just in the hope that this will happen someday.


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## gsilbers (Jan 16, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> If you are just composing music, yes. But if you work in post- Dialog, SFX, mixing... it's the only restaurant open. Can't wait until someone comes up with a comperable replacement (or someone buys out Avid). I have used Cubase/Logic/Reaper and for editing hundreds of audio tracks and mixing they are not in the same league unfortunately. Hopefully someday.
> 
> I keep downloading AU/VST versions of my 200+ AAX plugins just in the hope that this will happen someday.



i thought reaper was a good alternative since its so flexible and its editing capabilities so good. 
and many guys switched over.


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## John Longley (Jan 16, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> If you are only a composer yes. But if you work in post- Dialog, SFX, mixing... it's the only restaurant open. Can't wait until someone comes up with a comperable replacement (or someone buys out Avid). I have used Cubase/Logic/Reaper and for editing hundreds of audio tracks and mixing they are not in the same league unfortunately. Hopefully someday.


R


gsilbers said:


> i thought reaper was a good alternative since its so flexible and its editing capabilities so good.
> and many guys switched over.


REAPER is great for mixing, but it doesn't always scale well at very high track count (improved some in V6 apparently), automation isn't quite as good and control surface support is TERRIBLE. Otherwise I prefer it vastly.


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## mscp (Jan 16, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> If you are just composing music, yes. But if you work in post- Dialog, SFX, mixing... it's the only restaurant open. Can't wait until someone comes up with a comperable replacement (or someone buys out Avid). I have used Cubase/Logic/Reaper and for editing hundreds of audio tracks and mixing they are not in the same league unfortunately. Hopefully someday.
> 
> I keep downloading AU/VST versions of my 200+ AAX plugins just in the hope that this will happen someday.



Pretty much. I’m the former.


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## cqd (Jan 16, 2020)

I tried Cubase..Kept returning to PT..Folder tracks are pretty much all I wanted for a while..


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## dzilizzi (Jan 16, 2020)

Folders are nice, but I usually use an aux track, groups and show/hide track. I mostly just do music as a hobbyist and have Cubase and S1. I still end up with using PT because, for me, it is easy. So I paid for 3 years last June. After that, not sure if I won't just freeze my system. Because once it got fairly stable for me, most of these updates haven't really added much I use. I would like ARA support though.

Edit: Oh, and an Arp. I mean really. Why are there no MIDI tools that are AAX? Is it really that hard to make one? Every other DAW comes with one.


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## DS_Joost (Jan 16, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> i thought reaper was a good alternative since its so flexible and its editing capabilities so good.
> and many guys switched over.



In many big studios it's actually becoming the new standard because of it's open endedness and scriptability. Things are changing, very slowly.

But if you want a glimpse at the future for post, look at Reaper. If you want to get a head start in that business, learn Reaper NOW alongside Pro Tools.

Especially if you work in the game industry.


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## Henu (Jan 17, 2020)

I was literally laughing when I read this. What's next, macros in 2025?

PS: @DS_Joost , also Nuendo for games due to Wwise integration.


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## Manaberry (Jan 17, 2020)

cqd said:


> I tried Cubase..Kept returning to PT..Folder tracks are pretty much all I wanted for a while..


Do you mind telling why? 
I'm only using Cubase as a composer, but PT is the film industry standard for score mixing.
I'm curious about your statement on both softwares.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Jan 17, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> If you are just composing music, yes. But if you work in post- Dialog, SFX, mixing... it's the only restaurant open. Can't wait until someone comes up with a comperable replacement (or someone buys out Avid). I have used Cubase/Logic/Reaper and for editing hundreds of audio tracks and mixing they are not in the same league unfortunately. Hopefully someday.
> 
> I keep downloading AU/VST versions of my 200+ AAX plugins just in the hope that this will happen someday.


I am not familiar with Post Production (past reading on it for the shortest time), so forgive me for this error... but is Nuendo not for Post?


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## gsilbers (Jan 17, 2020)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> I am not familiar with Post Production (past reading on it for the shortest time), so forgive me for this error... but is Nuendo not for Post?




i think there is a video fro christian henson showing why you need to learn pro tools.... but i dont think he states just how important pro tools is in post.

ive been working in post for 17 years and never ever saw anything else other than pro tools. not even once.
in NYC and LA. pro tools pro tools pro tools. thats it. sound editors edit and deliver in pro tools, composers deliver in pro tools, dialogue editors deliver en pro tools and everything is done in protools from start to finish.
if you want a job that has anything to do with audio you need to know how to use pro tools.

yes, some guys might use nuendo or reaper and be very vocal about it but its just no contest. its 99% the post prodcution world. thats why avid can charge whatever they want and be as holes about it.

for editing or mixing to picture its just work and its import session data is second to none.
and its also extremely robust and a standard on how to work. cubase, which is how logic was before, has way to many ways to do the same thing, which if you set it like you want then your golden, but its menu after sub menu after sub menu. in pro tools its the same key commands for everyone and simple very roubst settings. which obvuously cubase can do, but if you are colaborating with 20 other poeple and sharing files and cuts etc then using logic or cubase because counter intuitive. and yes, maybe if everyone used these daws the same ways it can do what pro tools does, but where pro tools shines is in this alternative, it forced a group of poeple to work a similar way. and things like sync to picture becomes extrmely acurate and easy, and other sync features and compatitablity.

now.. with that said. i do hate using protools and find it very cumbersome for music creation in my hybrid world. but i see mike verta getting along just fine w it.


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## Havoc911 (Jan 17, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> ive been working in post for 17 years and never ever saw anything else other than pro tools. not even once.


I could be wrong, but I think he was asking you why you didn't use Nuendo. In your post, you said about using Cubase for editing and mixing hundreds of tracks and his question is specific to that and not what studios use. At least that's how I read it.


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## dzilizzi (Jan 17, 2020)

I am not an expert. But I did a lot of research on Nuendo when they had the big crossgrade sale. You can do post in it and it is used a lot for game music. But the studios all use PT, so if you want to work in film, they may not like your deliverables. 

I also seem to remember reading something about setting timing when tempo changes being an issue when transferring stems. But I may be confusing that with Cubase. I don't really do film music but I have been trying to learn more about applying music to video.


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## cqd (Jan 20, 2020)

Just caught a video on the folder tracks..the implementation looks beyond what could have been expected..


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## cqd (Jan 20, 2020)

Manaberry said:


> Do you mind telling why?
> I'm only using Cubase as a composer, but PT is the film industry standard for score mixing.
> I'm curious about your statement on both softwares.



Hey.. ahh, probably personal preference really.. I'm used to PT.. didn't see much performance improvement in Cubase.. yeah, the midi is a bit better.. the articulation maps are nice..that's about it,.PT just kinda makes more sense to me.. the routing is way better.. layout too..


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## CoffeeLover (Jan 20, 2020)

15 years later,hey we got folder tracks everyone!
cute they felt the need to explain what they are.
Ive used protools since 6-12
i want to use it and i even bought reinstatement plan
that im not gonna activate anytime soon. im staying on 12 for fine mixing.
i am on cubase now and the weather is really nice for composing.


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## Heinigoldstein (Jan 20, 2020)

cqd said:


> Hey.. ahh, probably personal preference really.. I'm used to PT.. didn't see much performance improvement in Cubase.. yeah, the midi is a bit better.. the articulation maps are nice..that's about it,.PT just kinda makes more sense to me.. the routing is way better.. layout too..


For audio Pro Tools us still way ahead IMHO. Very reliable, very intuitive. But midi a BIT better in Cubase ? Come on, most other DAWs that cost a fraction are better when it comes to midi.
And I still remember times, I bought a Pro Tools system for € 12.000.- or more and you still had to buy an option to export MP3s for another € 50:- Their business conduct hasn’t really changed and is the main reason I avoid Pro Tools since I don‘t need to share projects with clients anymore.


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## gsilbers (Jan 20, 2020)

CoffeeLover said:


> 15 years later,hey we got folder tracks everyone!
> cute they felt the need to explain what they are.
> Ive used protools since 6-12
> i want to use it and i even bought reinstatement plan
> ...



just fyi - vintageking audio and sweetwater offer buying options where you pay monthly payments. 
which is a great way to not fall onto avids subscirption model and at the same time buying it all at once w/o paying $1k+ at once.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Jan 20, 2020)

What the Avid complaints never seem to acknowledge is that Avid is the only game in town for hardware assisted workflow. What they have just done with the Dock and S1 is quite amazing compared to any other company. Every other DAW has some roll-your-own combination of DAW, touchscreens, Lemur, OSC, small 3rd party companies, fader boxes, etc. There are always problems with trying to use legacy protocols like Mackie Control and fader banking. Generally the keystroke tablet has no integration with the faders or plugin control. Any generic fader hardware is generally of low quality and has poor out of the box integration with any DAW, let alone mine. Little of the DAW core workflow is assisted, and so its still mostly a mouse game. Faders are used for CC only, and that's the way it is.

ProTools is the only one to be working seriously, credibly and over multiple years to deliver integrated, faster, tactile, responsive workflows at a variety of price points. For someone who works in a DAW all day, Avid has put more thought into workflow than any other company. Yes, I know we all have our customized keystrokes and such. Avid has things you can just buy and that work out of the box. The S1 for instance - most people can afford that. Even the S4 at $25k is not obscene. If it has a 10 year life, and someone would buy 4 of them over a career, that's still the same rough price as an SSL 948 - but far more useful for a pure digital workflow. For those working almost exclusively in the digital realm, it makes sense to accelerate that workflow much more than having some analog summing. (heavy analog tracking might drive a different answer, of course). Admittedly, the S6 is pretty much priced for post-houses. But two S1's and a Dock is an amazingly capable control surface for producing music. 

Why is Avid more expensive? It's this: They have some things that no one else has and some people are willing to pay for them. (interoperability and session exchange/UI consistency being some of them). If you value it, you have to pay. It may be that these things are most valuable to people doing audio and video post work. But that is Avid's market and who they aim to please. 

I kind of get the whining about their subscription model, but really, my Nuendo (and before that Cubase) are effectively subscriptions. Every year, I pay the upgrade fee. 

In the world of enterprise software, vendors are moving to subscription licensing. It is the best model to support ongoing development. It may not be customer's most favorite, but there is no question that it works better to amortize the development and maintenance costs and smooth cash flow. It will not go away. It will grow in every industry. There will always be open source things like Reaper for those who object. But the big commercial packages will all tend that way over time. People and expectations will adjust. As a business expense? $80/mo for Ultimate is not a lot. Internet costs more. Power costs more. For a hobby, sure, too much - but that isn't the target market and regular ProTools is even less.


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## Havoc911 (Jan 20, 2020)

Nathanael Iversen said:


> What the Avid complaints never seem to acknowledge is that Avid is the only game in town for hardware assisted workflow


What about Cubendo/Nuage?


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## Nathanael Iversen (Jan 20, 2020)

Havoc911 said:


> What about Cubendo/Nuage?


Only one price point (S6 territory). Has a fraction of the functionality of an S6 + ProTools. There's just no solution that is workable for a composer, music producer at less than top level. Avid has something for each meaningful tier of the market from serious amateur through highest end post house.


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## Havoc911 (Jan 20, 2020)

Nathanael Iversen said:


> Only one price point (S6 territory). Has a fraction of the functionality of an S6 + ProTools. There's just no solution that is workable for a composer, music producer at less than top level. Avid has something for each meaningful tier of the market from serious amateur through highest end post house.


Sure, that might make them the best game in town, but not the only game in town.


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## X-Bassist (Jan 20, 2020)

Nathanael Iversen said:


> The S1 for instance - most people can afford that. Even the S4 at $25k is not obscene. If it has a 10 year life


Problem is Avid often discontinues support for their own hardware after 5 years (I’ve got a pile of controllers and Avid interfaces to prove it) as the software marches on. And now with yearly upgrades, I expect that pace to quicken.

But it is the only game in town when you have to get many sync’ed tracks from a picture editor in a form that can be properly edited (namely opening up regions that were roughly to poorly edited), then sent back. I’m shocked another decade has gone by and no one has improved/replaced AAF. It’s still a basic transfer tool that is nowhere close to what it should be. But as long as I get tracks in sync and can make it work. Don’t know how you would do this without Pro Tools. Does Cubase or Nuendo open/convert an AAF?


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## Anders Wall (Jan 20, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> Does Cubase or Nuendo open/convert an AAF?


I know Nuendo does.
Unfortunately Nuendo also causes systems to hang when there's a lot going on on the timeline.
We've been trying to use Nuendo as "simple" as a multitrack recorder to no avail.
Waves Tracks Live is the best alternative when you need to record a lot of tracks, we are usually +100 tracks.
But yes, it does AAF import export.

/Anders


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## Nathanael Iversen (Jan 20, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> Problem is Avid often discontinues support for their own hardware after 5 years (I’ve got a pile of controllers and Avid interfaces to prove it) as the software marches on. And now with yearly upgrades, I expect that pace to quicken.
> 
> But it is the only game in town when you have to get many sync’ed tracks from a picture editor in a form that can be properly edited (namely opening up regions that were roughly to poorly edited), then sent back. I’m shocked another decade has gone by and no one has improved/replaced AAF. It’s still a basic transfer tool that is nowhere close to what it should be. But as long as I get tracks in sync and can make it work. Don’t know how you would do this without Pro Tools. Does Cubase or Nuendo open/convert an AAF?


It depends what hardware, but your point certainly has historical validity. HDX is on track for the Avid claim of 10yr support. (Even though I'm not sure at the 10yr mark it will still have relevance outside of massive scoring stages). The lower end Artist Mixes have been around for 10 years. The S6, though, is 5 yrs in. If they stopped selling them tomorrow, they'd still support them for some years going forward. The S3 though? I think it will be orphaned early by the S1's rendering them less desirable. I think on their surfaces, the best way to play the game is to get in relatively early - thereby getting the best lifetime. Maybe not "first in", but "early in". 

But, fully granting your point that sometimes support is curtailed, most businesses would have depreciated the hardware over 3-5 years, and have fully recouped their investment. If not purchased inside a profitable business, then yes, hard feelings are bound to occur. These surfaces are depreciating assets (just like analog consoles, actually). But the audio businesses making these decisions can generally get some information informally that let them know where in the product cycle they are buying. 

Even the old Control24 surfaces didn't go to zero $$ value - they entered an indefinite twilight of smaller studios that could now afford one, and who were willing and able to run ProTools 8 or 9 on a locked system. I'm sure there were people that bought a Control24 and 6 months later it was obsolete. That is hard. That happened to me with a Korg 01/W purchase two months before NAMM. I didn't know about NAMM and industry product cycles. I learned something though.... haven't made that mistake since.

The trick with Avid is that the core market for their best hardware is business customers, not individual artist/composer types. And that audience does things like run depreciation schedules, etc. The market of individuals saving up to buy "one really nice thing" is not well served by these kinds of assets. The digital camera market has gone this way too. The new ones aren't THAT much better than the old ones, and the product cycles are quick. If you aren't making money on it, participating in every refresh cycle is an expensive proposition. I think that is why there's so much residual interest in analog outboard. Individuals can save up and buy a $3k compressor and then expect to use it for 20 years, which feels more like an investment. An asset that you have to sweat in order to recoup value is different.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Jan 20, 2020)

I am pretty interested in the Dock + S1 combination. It is relatively affordable, no where near the S4 price point, and if it lasts 5 years, I'll have gotten full value out of it. We will see - no decisions yet.


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## X-Bassist (Jan 21, 2020)

Anders Wall said:


> I know Nuendo does.
> Unfortunately Nuendo also causes systems to hang when there's a lot going on on the timeline.
> We've been trying to use Nuendo as "simple" as a multitrack recorder to no avail.
> Waves Tracks Live is the best alternative when you need to record a lot of tracks, we are usually +100 tracks.
> ...


Thanks Anders, good to know. But this is my prime issue with DAW’s. 300+ tracks is not unusual for me, and around 200+ running audio tracks is where many start to stumble (yes I split onto multiple drives and use a thunderbolt array). Looking to do more complex suround features that get into 500+ tracks, and Pro Tools seems to be the only real game in town. My only complaint has been the lack of folders, since hiding/showing tracks works but isn’t ideal for seeing where all the other tracks are at. Even the new folders will probably have to go through some time of refinement, which should have started 10 years ago. At this point I realize my need for complex surround panning and high track count is fairly unique (compared to the sea of hobby composers) so the entry fee may be high. At least it’s not the 200k for an SSL console or the 150k for a Synclavier of my younger days. Dodged 2 bullets there. 😂


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## resonate (Jan 26, 2020)

At least when Avid implements something, it is implemented well (commit/freeze, track presets, now track folders - the project with them will be compatible with older PT versions). Steinberg, on the other hand...I am still waiting (2 years now) for enabled/disabled tracks properly retaining all the quick control data after re-opening the project.

Check this video around 5 minute mark. This is what you pay Avid for.


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## resonate (Jan 26, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> (presets with 2018, gain reduction meters with 2019)



Gain reduction metering was introduced in Pro Tools 11 HD, in 2013.


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## ChazC (Jan 26, 2020)

resonate said:


> At least when Avid implements something, it is implemented well (commit/freeze, track presets, now track folders - the project with them will be compatible with older PT versions). Steinberg, on the other hand...I am still waiting (2 years now) for enabled/disabled tracks properly retaining all the quick control data after re-opening the project.



At least Cubase/Nuendo has quick controls...


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