# Windows daws that are good for both audio and midi



## gregh (Oct 15, 2017)

At the moment I am using Reaper and have done for years. I have mainly used Reaper with audio but am starting to do a lot of Midi. Reaper seems terrible for midi with all sorts of bizarre behaviours - such as ripple editing that sometimes only works on every second track ! Inconsistency is the main bugbear.

Last year I looked at Sonar, Samplitude and Digital Performer but none were so much better that I changed. (Digital Performer looked okay but the font is too small for me to read)

I have considered Cubase but it seems very expensive and overkill in some ways

What are people using here - I micro edit both audio and midi, so detailed editing is essential.

thanks,


----------



## MatFluor (Oct 15, 2017)

I personally use Sonar and can't complain (earlier used StudioOne) - but what about Pro Tools? Unquestionable Audio Editing, and Midi works too. Don't know how well, but it's something to try out.


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 15, 2017)

Cubase for all things midi. Fine for audio as well.

PT is OK but not really for midi. Nowadays I mainly use it for prepping sessions for project deliveries.

Samplitude/Sequoia is the best for audio editing and sounds the best but I find them a bit tricky to use. They're very barebones and not so user friendly. I've had some weird glitches as well but it's what I use for mastering.

DP is nice for film scoring since it has a number of features for that but in general I think Cubase is better and more flexible for editing and general use.

Depending on what you need, something like Cubase Artist might work for you.

Don't get me started on Logic...


----------



## gregh (Oct 15, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Cubase for all things midi. Fine for audio as well.
> 
> PT is OK but not really for midi. Nowadays I mainly use it for prepping sessions for project deliveries.
> 
> ...


with Cubase can you apply VST FX and instruments to individual clips or is it setup to use mixer channels or entire tracks for that ?


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 15, 2017)

gregh said:


> with Cubase can you apply VST FX and instruments to individual clips or is it setup to use mixer channels or entire tracks for that ?


It doesn't have that sort of object based processing. Only offline for clips. Does reaper have this? It's one of the reasons I need Samplitude/Sequoia for mastering. PT now offers it after one of the recent updates but I've never tried it out there.


----------



## gregh (Oct 15, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> It doesn't have that sort of object based processing. Only offline for clips. Does reaper have this? It's one of the reasons I need Samplitude/Sequoia for mastering. PT now offers it after one of the recent updates but I've never tried it out there.


yes Reaper has that - Reaper is incredibly flexible and powerful but also fairly incoherent - processes that seemed to work for ages will suddenly be unpredictable. I find that every few weeks or so I will have a day where Reaper seems to be very flaky. If it were consistent I would not be interested in all the hassle of changing to another DAW


----------



## Kuusniemi (Oct 15, 2017)

gregh said:


> with Cubase can you apply VST FX and instruments to individual clips or is it setup to use mixer channels or entire tracks for that ?


Sonar can do this as well.


----------



## heisenberg (Oct 16, 2017)

gregh said:


> I am using Reaper...done for years... but am starting to do a lot of Midi... I looked at Sonar, Samplitude and Digital Performer but none were so much better ...DP the font is too small... considered Cubase but it seems very expensive and overkill...I micro edit both audio and midi, so detailed editing is essential.



Seems to me the only issue in making your decision is parting with your money. Read your post again. You answered your own question.


----------



## gregh (Oct 16, 2017)

heisenberg said:


> Seems to me the only issue in making your decision is parting with your money. Read your post again. You answered your own question.


money is not the only issue - Cubase (which I assume you are referring to) doesn't seem to have object based editing for FX , at least. Object based editing is not something I would give up that quickly


----------



## Sekkle (Oct 16, 2017)

Hi Gregh - I've recently switched from Cubase/Ableton to Reaper and have found it pretty decent for midi editing once I set up the mouse modifiers to how I was used to in Cubase. I keep things pretty simple on the midi editing front and use an instrument/art per track with basic CC editing etc. This all seems pretty solid so far and there's nothing I miss from Cubase. The fact I can properly overdub CC's is great which I couldn't get working properly in Cubase. I'm interested in the issues you have been having as I haven't seen any myself ...yet, but maybe I haven't pushed the program hard enough yet. I don't want to get too comfortable only for it to start getting flaky on me! ...so if I know what to look for that would be great..


----------



## calebfaith (Oct 16, 2017)

I use Reaper myself and I love it. I've tried the other major DAWs like Cubase but could never really get over how flexible Reaper is. I do extensive MIDI work in it and sometimes you need to spend an afternoon setting it up before it works how you want. Not to mention all the plugins you can use to make Reaper even better. Before you try the change I'd also advise to check out OTR by @storyteller


----------



## gregh (Oct 16, 2017)

calebfaith said:


> I use Reaper myself and I love it. I've tried the other major DAWs like Cubase but could never really get over how flexible Reaper is. I do extensive MIDI work in it and sometimes you need to spend an afternoon setting it up before it works how you want. Not to mention all the plugins you can use to make Reaper even better. Before you try the change I'd also advise to check out OTR by @storyteller


thanks Caleb - I love Reaper for all the reasons you give - I've been using it for a long time but I just seem to be having a lot of problems with unexpected behaviours. Maybe you can help with the following 

I have been editing a midi project and every so often over the last few days Reaper has suddenly undone all the edits for the last hour or so. Even to the extent of reloading a midi clip I had deleted. I get a message saying it has "undone multiple edits". I have no idea what I have hit (probably a typo) that causes this. But I have lost a lot of work.
Also splitting midi items seems to have changed - I used to split an item and then drag out the edge of either the right hand or left hand item. Now, the right hand item from the split is made into a completely new item so that if I drag out the edge it loops (rather than just continues as if it were the old item being fully revealed).


----------



## Vastman (Oct 16, 2017)

Suggest you try Sonar Platinum... free 30 day trial... monthly updates (huge and very quickly advancing the platform... see here for a summary. Just read through the past year and a half... easier to learn, the bakers are responsive to new request and I'm happy as a clam! Monthly updates allow time to learn a few new things every month although for a newbe ya gots a lots ta learn as the DAW can do sooooooo much!

Extremely powerful, continuous midi/audio/editing/GUI improvements, track templates are amazing, and it just works... wonderful GUI and huge amount of intuitive shortcuts (via positioning mouse, context sensitive rt clicking or design your own keyswitches). Oh, an an amazingly helpful forum... the folks there walk users thru issues/problems (ie, how do I do...) quickly and thoroughly... really an awesome bunch of helpful forum folk...

Have owned Studio One 3 pro for a couple years now but it's way more limited and kludgy with midi... have mucked around several times and just never seem to be able to get where I want quickly. Feature poor compared to Sonar

Naturally, time with a DAW makes it flow in your hands but it's important to have the features to learn... Sonar has that in spades and continues to add new things and rapidly fix bugs as reported...


----------



## PeterKorcek (Oct 16, 2017)

Cubase is just great (especially for MIDI - to me the most comfortable MIDI environment), it is a bit expensive, but you can always buy copies on KVR audio or somewhere around you (usually 300-400 USD) - if you don't like it, you can re-sell again.


----------



## ComposerWannabe (Oct 16, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Samplitude/Sequoia is the best for audio editing and sounds the best but I find them a bit tricky to use. They're very barebones and not so user friendly. I've had some weird glitches as well but it's what I use for mastering.



What do you mean sounds the best?


----------



## ComposerWannabe (Oct 16, 2017)

gregh said:


> yes Reaper has that - Reaper is incredibly flexible and powerful but also fairly incoherent - processes that seemed to work for ages will suddenly be unpredictable. I find that every few weeks or so I will have a day where Reaper seems to be very flaky. If it were consistent I would not be interested in all the hassle of changing to another DAW



And I think you shouldn't. Just get help from Reaper forums?


----------



## gregh (Oct 16, 2017)

ComposerWannabe said:


> And I think you shouldn't. Just get help from Reaper forums?


thanks for the forum suggestion - Like most forums, sometimes the forum is helpful, other times not so much.


----------



## gregh (Oct 16, 2017)

Vastman said:


> Suggest you try Sonar Platinum... free 30 day trial... monthly updates (huge and very quickly advancing the platform... see here for a summary. Just read through the past year and a half... easier to learn, the bakers are responsive to new request and I'm happy as a clam! Monthly updates allow time to learn a few new things every month although for a newbe ya gots a lots ta learn as the DAW can do sooooooo much!
> 
> Extremely powerful, continuous midi/audio/editing/GUI improvements, track templates are amazing, and it just works... wonderful GUI and huge amount of intuitive shortcuts (via positioning mouse, context sensitive rt clicking or design your own keyswitches). Oh, an an amazingly helpful forum... the folks there walk users thru issues/problems (ie, how do I do...) quickly and thoroughly... really an awesome bunch of helpful forum folk...
> 
> ...


any reason to go for Platinum as against Professional? I'm not really interested in included content like instruments or fx. I have more than enough of those


----------



## calebfaith (Oct 16, 2017)

gregh said:


> thanks Caleb - I love Reaper for all the reasons you give - I've been using it for a long time but I just seem to be having a lot of problems with unexpected behaviours. Maybe you can help with the following
> 
> I have been editing a midi project and every so often over the last few days Reaper has suddenly undone all the edits for the last hour or so. Even to the extent of reloading a midi clip I had deleted. I get a message saying it has "undone multiple edits". I have no idea what I have hit (probably a typo) that causes this. But I have lost a lot of work.
> Also splitting midi items seems to have changed - I used to split an item and then drag out the edge of either the right hand or left hand item. Now, the right hand item from the split is made into a completely new item so that if I drag out the edge it loops (rather than just continues as if it were the old item being fully revealed).



Apparently the undo thing can happen if your undo memory is full which you can increase in settings somewhere: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=142093. I've never had it happen to me  

From a quick look myself check Preferences -> General -> Undo Settings (heading) -> make sure the max undo size is at least 128MB and check 'When approaching full undo memory, keep newest undo states' otherwise it will delete some inbetween.

For the looping MIDI items check Preferences -> Project -> Media Item Defaults and then make sure that 'Loop source for new MIDI items' is unticked and also the glued items one.


----------



## gregh (Oct 16, 2017)

calebfaith said:


> Apparently the undo thing can happen if your undo memory is full which you can increase in settings somewhere: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=142093. I've never had it happen to me
> 
> From a quick look myself check Preferences -> General -> Undo Settings (heading) -> make sure the max undo size is at least 128MB and check 'When approaching full undo memory, keep newest undo states' otherwise it will delete some inbetween.
> 
> For the looping MIDI items check Preferences -> Project -> Media Item Defaults and then make sure that 'Loop source for new MIDI items' is unticked and also the glued items one.


thanks Caleb, much appreciated advice


----------



## Vastman (Oct 16, 2017)

Don't really know but seems not a big difference per this comparison table. Also, periodically the bakers give great deals to existing users to encourage upgrading...all the monthly improvements, like ripple editing, new adaptive limiting,and such apply to both prof+plat


----------



## aaronventure (Oct 16, 2017)

I've been using Reaper for a while now, and I don't think there's any inconsistencies with the program. In fact, I would say it is actually incredibly consistent. It simply does what you tell it to do. For every single thing Reaper does, there's a reason (heh) somewhere in the settings. And I mean every single little thing. And you can probably change it.

My current setup is pretty far from the setup that you get when you first open it, I've changed a billion little things to further better my workflow so I'll try and help.

There's an option somewhere that lets you decide what goes into the "Undo Buffer". How big the whole thing is and what actions does it store. I think that by default, once the buffer gets full, it saves things from "the middle", so a simple Undo action will undo a LOT of stuff. That's why you're noticing it after some time, because the buffer gets full. You can change it so only save the latest edits, and the troubles go away.

Ripple editing also has two modes, Per-track and All tracks. It's also only moving the clips that start at or after the clip you're dragging (if you're using All tracks).

There's a number of things Reaper can't do MIDI-wise, but almost always there's a workaround or a script someone made, which is why it's so great. There's no built-in option to compress or expand CC events, so someone made a script. http://bit.ly/2xIhxlh

This is how you map it. So in my case, I move my mouse over the lane of CC events which I want to compress or expand, hold CTRL ALT and scroll the mousewheel, which either compresses it or expands it. By moving the cursor up and down you move the "base" of all the selected CC events up and down.






You can see the names of the two scripts, and you can also get them via ReaPack, it's a bit more convenient. Also make sure you install the SWS extension.


----------



## gregh (Oct 16, 2017)

aaronventure said:


> I've been using Reaper for a while now, and I don't think there's any inconsistencies with the program. In fact, I would say it is actually incredibly consistent. It simply does what you tell it to do. For every single thing Reaper does, there's a reason (heh) somewhere in the settings. And I mean every single little thing. And you can probably change it.



thanks Aaron for spending the time to help. I've also been using reaper for a very long time - I think it was version 0.43 when I started.

I think that is actually a problem as I've got in to habits long ago and the program has changed various settings and their default parameters without me noticing. For example, it is not that I do not know how to split items, it is that the behaviour that I am used to suddenly changed because of the auto loop defaults which seem to be different to what I had before I updated. The undo buffer is another good example of something that was not around last time I looked - which could have been years ago - and only now becomes a problem, and then only because of a silly default setting. 

The ripple edit problem was a flat out bug - same items on the same tracks showing different behaviour at random - or at least what seemed to be random.

Whilst the customisability is a great strength of Reaper's, the lack of a coherent and principled set of defaults and the sometimes conflicting (and unflagged) interaction between settings is a design problem that many comment on. Hits me about once or twice a year or so.

thanks again - your CC script is not one I had noticed


----------



## Maximvs (Oct 16, 2017)

Vastman said:


> Suggest you try Sonar Platinum... free 30 day trial... monthly updates (huge and very quickly advancing the platform... see here for a summary. Just read through the past year and a half... easier to learn, the bakers are responsive to new request and I'm happy as a clam! Monthly updates allow time to learn a few new things every month although for a newbe ya gots a lots ta learn as the DAW can do sooooooo much!
> 
> Extremely powerful, continuous midi/audio/editing/GUI improvements, track templates are amazing, and it just works... wonderful GUI and huge amount of intuitive shortcuts (via positioning mouse, context sensitive rt clicking or design your own keyswitches). Oh, an an amazingly helpful forum... the folks there walk users thru issues/problems (ie, how do I do...) quickly and thoroughly... really an awesome bunch of helpful forum folk...
> 
> ...


Excuse me the intrusion Vastman and Gregh, I am interested to know if in Sonar Prof or Platinum there is an equivalent to the Expression Maps that are included in Cubase or something like Studio One X for Studio One 3 or Articulate for Reaper. I am used to use one track per instrument and manage all the various articulations on one track; so something like what is available for the previously mentioned DAW is essential for me. If Sonar has something like that I may be very interested to consider it as my future DAW.

Many thanks in advance for any feedback... Cheers, Max


----------



## MatFluor (Oct 16, 2017)

Massimo said:


> Excuse me the intrusion Vastman and Gregh, I am interested to know if in Sonar Prof or Platinum there is an equivalent to the Expression Maps that are included in Cubase or something like Studio One X for Studio One 3 or Articulate for Reaper. I am used to use one track per instrument and manage all the various articulations on one track; so something like what is available for the previously mentioned DAW is essential for me. If Sonar has something like that I may be very interested to consider it as my future DAW.
> 
> Many thanks in advance for any feedback... Cheers, Max



You can do it - it's not a function thought of in sonar, but you can pull it of with Drum Maps.
Meaning you define the Keyswitches as a Drum Map, then you can do a second track e.g. under the main track, and that Track then contains all the Keyswitches. You can just select both tracks and are able to click your way through the Articulations.

I can quickly make a short video to demonstrate at if you're interested.


----------



## Scrianinoff (Oct 16, 2017)

Just use OTR mentioned above and these fine MIDI editing extensions for Reaper: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=176878 

It is not difficult to learn to use them, and then you’re in midi editing bliss. If you won’t, don’t despair and forget all suggestions in this thread because ignorance is bliss too


----------



## aaronventure (Oct 16, 2017)

gregh said:


> thanks Aaron for spending the time to help. I've also been using reaper for a very long time - I think it was version 0.43 when I started.
> 
> I think that is actually a problem as I've got in to habits long ago and the program has changed various settings and their default parameters without me noticing. For example, it is not that I do not know how to split items, it is that the behaviour that I am used to suddenly changed because of the auto loop defaults which seem to be different to what I had before I updated. The undo buffer is another good example of something that was not around last time I looked - which could have been years ago - and only now becomes a problem, and then only because of a silly default setting.
> 
> ...



You're welcome. Oh, I haven't been around that long, it just hit 5.00 when I first came aboard. That does sound like a nightmare, I'd hate it to mess all my settings up once it hits 6 or some new major update comes through. But I think I understand where they're coming from. When they put something new in, they default it to what would be the most logical thing (although I can't say that for the Undo Buffer). I'll still rather adjust than head over to a new DAW, although now that I've learned Reaper inside out, I don't think others would be an issue (I came from Ableton Live to Reaper, it wasn't pleasant).

I haven't noticed the Undo buffer before I started working heavily with orchestral libraries. I was setting up my first template and I went for "each articulation in its own track" and went over 800 tracks. In the process of coloring, naming, moving around, routing, the buffer filled up and when I started writing, I noticed that it was acting weirdly. So I went down the hole and whaddya know. 

Do shout if you something else is bothering you, might just be that I can help.


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 16, 2017)

ComposerWannabe said:


> What do you mean sounds the best?



The plugins generally sound better than other DAWs and the Sequoia/Samplitude audio engine is the best. Different programs can sound different playing back the same files because of how their audio engine works. It's one of the reasons that people use different music players like JRiver instead of something like iTunes. I've heard that Logic has one of the worst engine. I believe at one point HZ mentioned being able to hear when someone worked in Logic because of how it sounded. PT also had some issues but I believe it's better nowadays. Things like playing back multiple mono sounding different than interleaved files (which I've never been able to hear). Just look at the number of mixing engineers who refuse to bounce to disk in PT and so always record the mix onto another track. I don't know if it still has issues there.

If you sum things in the DAW they'll null but I believe if you sum them externally they won't. Because of this it doesn't really affect files that you're bouncing out of the DAW but does affect it if you're using it to play and record through outboard gear.


----------



## gregh (Oct 16, 2017)

calebfaith said:


> Apparently the undo thing can happen if your undo memory is full which you can increase in settings somewhere: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=142093. I've never had it happen to me
> 
> From a quick look myself check Preferences -> General -> Undo Settings (heading) -> make sure the max undo size is at least 128MB and check 'When approaching full undo memory, keep newest undo states' otherwise it will delete some inbetween.
> 
> For the looping MIDI items check Preferences -> Project -> Media Item Defaults and then make sure that 'Loop source for new MIDI items' is unticked and also the glued items one.


Hi Caleb - there is yet another setting that is even better as you can keep the looping auto settings (from the Reaper forum) - Go to Preferences > Media> Midi and check near the top "Allow trim of midi items when splitting".

Personally I think having interacting settings in different places in the Preferences is poor design, but the functionality is excellent. I still don't understand why my midi splitting behaviour suddenly changed, but I do think this is a problem with so many settings, and then possibly new defaults with new versions or as new settings are added.


----------



## Maximvs (Oct 17, 2017)

MatFluor said:


> You can do it - it's not a function thought of in sonar, but you can pull it of with Drum Maps.
> Meaning you define the Keyswitches as a Drum Map, then you can do a second track e.g. under the main track, and that Track then contains all the Keyswitches. You can just select both tracks and are able to click your way through the Articulations.
> 
> I can quickly make a short video to demonstrate at if you're interested.


Thanks a lot for your very kind feedback... I'd love to see a video of what you are talking about... Thanks so much in advance... Cheers, Max


----------



## wst3 (Oct 17, 2017)

If only<G>!

I use Sonar most of the time, I think it is second best in audio and second best in MIDI, there are better tools for each out there, but I need a single platform for most of my projects.

If I am doing audio only multi-tracking I do use Studio One, the workflow is so fast and easy. I keep waiting for the MIDI improvements that will make it #1 in both camps.

If I am doing audio editing I use Wavelab, and sometimes I still use Sound Forge. I did download the trial for V12 of Sound Forge Studio, so we'll see if Magix has made any improvements. I prefer SF over Wavelab for most tasks, but Sony made such a mess of things.

So I'm stuck using multiple tools. On one level using an audio/MIDI sequencer, an audio editor, and a notation tool makes a lot of sense. On many levels really. But one can still dream!

And then there are all the others.

On Windows I think Cubase is still next in line behind Sonar as an all-around toolset. And that's probably because when I switched to Windows I switched to Cakewalk Pro Audio, can't even remember the version, it was a long time ago, and I've become comfortable with their overall approach. It would be darned difficult to switch to Cubase because it works differently, and the differences are sufficient to make my head explode. I've downloaded and tried every major revision of Cubase, and at one point I almost switched - Expression Maps really do make working with Kontakt a lot easier.

There are work-arounds, the drum map being one of the better ones, but they are still work-arounds, and they still feel a little clumsy. But depending on your work habits I would absolutely recommend trying both Sonar and Cubase.

Sequoia is a fantastic audio tool, but it does seem to be getting a little long in the tooth, I still use it at a friends studio, but I'm not nearly as excited about it as I once was.

Reaper - if I had the time to really dig in and customize it I think I'd do just that, but I don't have that kind of time right now. It's a great platform, and it gets better every day (week?), but I just can't invest the time. (and yet I download new versions and take them for a spin regularly!)

Abelton Live - coming from a time when Texture broke all kinds of rules I keep wanting to like Abelton, but alas I'm just not as flexible as I once was I guess.

DP - if I owned a Mac I'd use DP. And I am waiting to see if the Windows version catches up.

Largely because all of these tools must support audio I think that MIDI has taken a back seat. In my less-than-humble opinion none of platforms available today hold a candle to the MIDI capabilities of tools from the 90s - Texture, Bars&Pipes, etc. But then they can't really. MIDI only was an entirely different game. And I'm not sure those tools would hold up in today's MIDI driven VI environment.


----------



## sazema (Oct 17, 2017)

wst3 said:


> Reaper - if I had the time to really dig in and customize it I think I'd do just that, but I don't have that kind of time right now. It's a great platform, and it gets better every day (week?), but I just can't invest the time. (and yet I download new versions and take them for a spin regularly!)



Come on guys. It's time to stop with Reaper and customization things... It's not different than any other sequencer on market. Install, run and set VST/AU folder. What kind of customization? Another skin?!!
Believe me, you don't need any time than you need with any other software.
You said, if you have Mac you would use DP. Well... It's most complicated sequencer among others. For DP you really need to read and watch a lot of materials to figure out things. DP is also configurable software, when you go to settings you can see lot of things, and lot of them are mystic until you read manual, etc, etc...

We can organize hangout session, and I will explain to you everything about Reaper in 10 mins + we'll not going to customize anything. (Paid of course ).

Come on, it's like: Ohh I need to take unpaid holiday time because I need to learn about Reaper customization


----------



## Giscard Rasquin (Oct 17, 2017)

Been using SONAR for a long time. Works for me. Never tried another DAW to be honest. 
So, I suppose that means that up until now, I never had to look for something in another DAW that SONAR can’t do!
As mentioned above, the monthly improvements are really good and add valuable stuff


----------



## PaulieDC (Oct 17, 2017)

Vastman said:


> Have owned Studio One 3 pro for a couple years now but it's way more limited and kludgy with midi... have mucked around several times and just never seem to be able to get where I want quickly. Feature poor compared to Sonar



Hey Vastman, glad I found someone who really used Studio One 3 Pro... what are the one or two biggest things that drive you nuts about it, if you don't mind me asking? I'm new to MIDI Composing and I currently use S13 Pro for audio work, and it'd be super helpful to know what stinks about the MIDI part. Thanks! (I almost posted "I use Studio One, I like it a lot", lol!)


----------



## gregh (Oct 17, 2017)

sazema said:


> Come on guys. It's time to stop with Reaper and customization things... It's not different than any other sequencer on market. Install, run and set VST/AU folder. What kind of customization? Another skin?!!
> Believe me, you don't need any time than you need with any other software.



I dunno, I think the Reaper default setting that deletes all your work for the last few hours or more if the undo buffer gets full is one I find handy to customise


----------



## TimRideout (Oct 17, 2017)

gregh said:


> At the moment I am using Reaper and have done for years. I have mainly used Reaper with audio but am starting to do a lot of Midi. Reaper seems terrible for midi with all sorts of bizarre behaviours - such as ripple editing that sometimes only works on every second track ! Inconsistency is the main bugbear.



I have used Reaper for years, both for audio and for large orchestral templates and have never once experienced the behavior you speak of. I have to really think hard to think of *any8 time I've had a problem with it, honestly! It's rock solid, configurable and oddly familiar at first use. The track system is amazing and the Render Matrix is without equal for TV and media work. The devs are great and there is a hugely active community. It's cheap, fast, friendly and light years ahead of Pro Tools of course.

I strongly encourage anyone to try REAPER!

www.Reaper.fm


----------



## TimRideout (Oct 17, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> It doesn't have that sort of object based processing. Only offline for clips. Does reaper have this? It's one of the reasons I need Samplitude/Sequoia for mastering. PT now offers it after one of the recent updates but I've never tried it out there.



Yes, Reaper has this functionality. You can apply an effects chain to a specific event/item - either in real time as an insert, or destructively as a new take.


----------



## sazema (Oct 17, 2017)

gregh said:


> I dunno, I think the Reaper default setting that deletes all your work for the last few hours or more if the undo buffer gets full is one I find handy to customise



Never had any issues with buffer, even with slower machine. Long time Reaper user.


----------



## gregh (Oct 17, 2017)

sazema said:


> Never had any issues with buffer, even with slower machine. Long time Reaper user.


well lucky you - I am not the only person to have come up against this poorly designed default setting


----------



## sazema (Oct 18, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> The plugins generally sound better than other DAWs and the Sequoia/Samplitude audio engine is the best. Different programs can sound different playing back the same files because of how their audio engine works.



No! Every program sounds the same at raw (pure) summing stage. It can sound different if you put different plugins. Same is with stock plugins, Live compressor is different than Logic compressor etc.
Pure wav loop in Logic or whatever sounds the same in raw summing situation, track -> master (faders to zero).
Yeah, HZ has developed fourth ear to hear sequencer differences 

Please, listen this:



And pick sequencer! I will cover later what these guys uses.
As an extra plus, almost every serious work you heard was pulled through hardware mixing consoles at the final stage (before burning to CDs, DVDs), conducted by PT. So...

Here is extra internet info: http://innerportalstudio.com/sound-quality-live-versus-logic/


----------



## sazema (Oct 18, 2017)

gregh said:


> well lucky you - I am not the only person to have come up against this poorly designed default setting



Yes, I saw on forums some threads about this topic but not many users. Shame you have that problem.
For example, I have default settings, buffer is 256 Mb and that parameter Caleb suggested to tick - for me is unchecked also.
I'm not using so many external scripts, very few... Maybe some bad coded scripts causing this behavior !??

And to original question, now days every sequencer on market will do things well for you in both cases: audio and midi. That's standard.

You should explore S1 as a next logical step if you wont Cubase. Forget about DP on Windows...


----------



## MarcusD (Oct 18, 2017)

Cubase is more geared towards composers and songwriters that work a lot "in the box" with MIDI, sound design etc...


----------



## valyogennoff (Oct 18, 2017)

I do both midi and audio in Sonar. Very intuitive and easy.


----------



## PeterKorcek (Oct 18, 2017)

Sonar seems also like a solid choice, I think you can install the Command centre and try the software for 1 month or so if I am not mistaken. I was playing around with it for 1-2 weeks, I really liked MIDI editor and customisable Skylight GUI. I am currently using Cubase 9 due to familiarity with the DAW.


----------



## Orchestrata (Oct 18, 2017)

Scrianinoff said:


> Just use OTR mentioned above and these fine MIDI editing extensions for Reaper: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=176878
> 
> It is not difficult to learn to use them, and then you’re in midi editing bliss. If you won’t, don’t despair and forget all suggestions in this thread because ignorance is bliss too



I wish I could like your post a thousand times to adequately say thanks; I cannot believe I missed this before. I'm going to take tomorrow off and install / learn all of these :D


----------



## InLight-Tone (Oct 18, 2017)

valyogennoff said:


> I do both midi and audio in Sonar. Very intuitive and easy.


Except that you can't draw in a simple blank midi clip...


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 18, 2017)

sazema said:


> No! Every program sounds the same at raw (pure) summing stage. It can sound different if you put different plugins. Same is with stock plugins, Live compressor is different than Logic compressor etc.
> Pure wav loop in Logic or whatever sounds the same in raw summing situation, track -> master (faders to zero).
> Yeah, HZ has developed fourth ear to hear sequencer differences
> 
> ...




The summing is generally the same (nowadays, used to be very different) and the files printed would null as I said. The difference is when you're playing it back. If you tried to null 2 separate systems they wouldn't. The way that the program interacts with the audio driver and OS makes it sound different. There's a reason mastering engineer's will pay $3000 for programs to do nothing but play back or record through their outboard. When you're actually recording the playback, it makes a difference.


----------



## sazema (Oct 19, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> The summing is generally the same (nowadays, used to be very different) and the files printed would null as I said. The difference is when you're playing it back. If you tried to null 2 separate systems they wouldn't. The way that the program interacts with the audio driver and OS makes it sound different. There's a reason mastering engineer's will pay $3000 for programs to do nothing but play back or record through their outboard. When you're actually recording the playback, it makes a difference.



Of course it will sound different if you play your audio through Logic and mac's sound card and you play on Live on Windows with some other sound card. But, myth that Logic at raw summing state and other sequencer sounds differently on same system with same sound card etc is just a myth


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 19, 2017)

sazema said:


> Of course it will sound different if you play your audio through Logic and mac's sound card and you play on Live on Windows with some other sound card. But, myth that Logic at raw summing state and other sequencer sounds differently on same system with same sound card etc is just a myth



I'm not saying with different soundcards. At the soundcard stage it'll sound different. Has nothing to do with summing. It's why people will buy 2 Sequoia rigs and have one of them only to record or play back. They could do with any media player yet they still go with Sequoia.


----------

