# Studio one for film scoring with big templates bad choice?



## Fibigero (Aug 11, 2021)

After many years in Logic Pro I wanted to switch to studio one and quickly noticed two things:

The video functions are almost non existent (compared to other DAWs), like e.g. you don't see a dedicated video track and the video is at the beginning of the session by default. You can only move it with "off sets" etc.. 

But the biggest issue for me and the reason I'm considering going back to Logic is that autosave takes forever the bigger the template. In Logic I have 400 tracks and autosave is happening in the background every 5 minutes without me noticing anything. But in Studio one I started building a template and it already takes liek 1-2 minutes everytime for autosave, which is not happening in the background, but actively in the foreground, stopping everything you are doing at that moment so you have to wait until the autosave is over. As DAWs sometimes crash or other things might happen, I'm always happy to have everything constantly saved and running again when I restart the session after a crash etc.. so I really need those 5 minute autosaves. But with Studio one it would mean 5 minute working followed by 1-2 minutes saving time. No one can work properly like this. 

How's everyone dealing with this? No one using autosave? No one having a big template?


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## Crossroads (Aug 11, 2021)

No one is having a big template. It can't handle it period. Until they do something about the saving and loading times. 

However, you could look into creating presets, it handles that beautifully. Depends on whether you are married to a big template or not. I know I am. But honestly I know that the preset workflow is just as fast. It's just a matter of preference.

I went back to Cubase because of this exact reason, however, it is worth looking into presets as an alternative, because the workflow IS good. It's just not for me.

Video isn't there yet, but they are working on it, I've heard here and there.


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## Zanshin (Aug 11, 2021)

Is there a good video that shows the preset workflow? I assume it's like Cubase track presets?


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## Crossroads (Aug 11, 2021)

@Lukas has some great videos about it. I'm pretty sure he will chime in. He's our resident Studio One expert.


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## Farkle (Aug 11, 2021)

In studio one, you have to tick an option that says "cache unchanged plugins", or something. If you don't, it resaves each plugin's settings every time you save, and you get 4 min (!) save times. If you tick the option, it only saves any changed VST's, and your save time goes down to about 5 seconds.

Mike


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## stargazer (Aug 11, 2021)

Anybody using S1 with a large Vienna Ensemble Pro setup?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 11, 2021)

Even with cache unchanged plugins, S1 is slow when it comes to large templates (I built a 300 track one when Sound Variations came out). It is extremely slow to open and the saving does not happen in the background (takes over the screen). Hopefully they will improve the performance in an upcoming release. I’ve been back in Cubase and it blazes with large track counts. It also has a ton of useful functionality for media composers (just discovered custom click patterns the other day which were exactly what I needed).


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## Farkle (Aug 11, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Even with cache unchanged plugins, S1 is slow when it comes to large templates (I built a 300 track one when Sound Variations came out). It is extremely slow to open and the saving does not happen in the background (takes over the screen). Hopefully they will improve the performance in an upcoming release. I’ve been back in Cubase and it blazes with large track counts. It also has a ton of useful functionality for media composers (just discovered custom click patterns the other day which were exactly what I needed).


Understood. I can only speak for my template. I'm about 24 GB, and I have the cache link checked, and my project auto saves are 5 seconds? Maybe 7?

Mike


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## Drumdude2112 (Aug 12, 2021)

stargazer said:


> Anybody using S1 with a large Vienna Ensemble Pro setup?


Curious of this too .🤔


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## mjsalam (Aug 13, 2021)

Well FWIW I recently purchased S1 and tried to make the jump (previously Logic/Cubase primarily). I was trying to recreate a disabled track template approach I've enjoyed in cubase and was really excited to start building macros around show/hide instrument groups and libraries. Hit around 500 tracks and it was just unusably slow. Switching between filters took up to 45 seconds. So I could concur that for this workflow style - forget about S1 for now. I think a preset based template is probably where it's at for S1. For now though I'm back to Cubase. Once the move to the new licensing system sans dongle I don't think I'll have reason to leave.


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## Elmakai (Aug 24, 2021)

stargazer said:


> Anybody using S1 with a large Vienna Ensemble Pro setup?


I am. Unfortunately, it's not great. Mind you, I used to use FL Studio, and have not used Cubase, Logic, etc. So I do not have a basis for comparison.

My template is at 1150+ instruments, with about 30 loaded directly from the computer, and everything else in VEP. Everything is functional, but a lot of DAW functions are slow: filtering out instruments by searching, hiding unused instruments, showing all instruments, etc. Some of the other functions, such as moving an instrument from one folder to another are not too bad, takes a second or two.

Closing the file/Studio one takes about 2 minutes. Saving does not take that long.


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## Tren (Aug 26, 2021)

Studio One bogs down with large templates, a lot.

It's better for producing other types of music, IMHO. I think the Orchestral Stuff is better done in Cubase/Nuendo or Digital Performer. I haven't used Logic Pro, so I cannot comment on how well it works.

I like what they have done with the composition features, but this really should have been addressed in concert.

You need to develop a workflow that works around this. This is not going to be a situation where you just port what you're used to doing over to Studio One and hit the ground running.


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## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Aug 27, 2021)

Have to agree that S1 still can't properly handle a huge amount of tracks. But, at some point I realized that huge templates make zero sense to me(and in general ig).
Here is a few reasons why and how I changed workflow: 

I was using some instruments only because they were there, not because I needed it really bad. 

For one long cue(aka project) it's much better to use one set of tools(instruments and effects). There's a million reasons why, like coherence of sound, maintain connection to the picture, having a much more predictable workflow all we the project(aka making things much faster) and so on. 

In S1 there're Import Song Data and Disable Tracks options. These two things allow me to have some kind of prioritization of different instruments - 1)those that I use often are active and in template(plus prepared for ISD option templates of big libs(for example, the entire stings library grin certain developer and so on); 2)instruments that are in the template, not disabled(there are instruments that I use relatively often, but barely start from then any production); 3)instruments, that presented only in different("closed") templates in disabled state as well(it's for faster loading when those templates have 20+ tracks), from which I load whole sets if tools when I need them. 

Another inpoetant discovery for me was the ability to split and organize everything into different types of templates. For example, I have template "Str - Shorts; Br + Shorts...", where I have folders with articulation name, and in this folder I have patches of this particular articulation from every library I have. 

Anyway, PreSonus indeed should find a way to optimize the way S1 handles big data. It'll be useful with huge cues.


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## Tren (Aug 27, 2021)

Cubase has those same features without the bad performance with big templates, and many other DAWs support Track Templates which basically can stand in for much of that.

It having those is not a fix for the bad performance with larger templates.

Or the bad load/save performance with larger projects (projects with large track sizes, etc.).


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## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Aug 28, 2021)

Tren said:


> Cubase has those same features without the bad performance with big templates, and many other DAWs support Track Templates which basically can stand in for much of that.
> 
> It having those is not a fix for the bad performance with larger templates.
> 
> Or the bad load/save performance with larger projects (projects with large track sizes, etc.).


You can drag those tracks from a browser like in S1?


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## Toecutter (Sep 11, 2021)

ka00 said:


> I just started building a VEP template in S1 the other day, and so far so good. As I get the track counts higher, I'm curious if the performance will worsen. I will report back as the template gets bigger.


Interested in hearing your findings, for me it became unusable at 300 tracks, even using Vep. When they fix save times and large templates performance, it will be hard to ignore S1.


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## Robert Kooijman (Sep 11, 2021)

Crossroads said:


> No one is having a big template. It can't handle it period. Until they do something about the saving and loading times.


Well, in Studio One 5.3 saving & loading a 300-400 track template using Vepro works very well here. Actually faster then Cubase 10.5...

But things fall apart when using visibility / track filtering functions. Here Cubase is indeed still miles ahead. It easily takes in S1 10-20 seconds just to show all tracks or when going back and forth between collapsed and expanded folders. Presonus *really* should fix this. As it is now, using the new, shiny visibility functionality is a pain in large templates.


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## Ray Sharp (Sep 11, 2021)

Preset management in S1 is next level, I've gone from large cumbersome templates in logic to fast nimble use only what you need presets in S1. You an save preset folders per project drop and drag entire sections in one go, loading presets form browser just as fast as enable/disable track in logic.


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## Ray Sharp (Sep 11, 2021)

ka00 said:


> Yes, it’s great. I wish it would recreate the link to your existing send busses as well, instead of creating copies of those busses and the plugins on them. That would be really great.


True, still I find it faster and way more intuitive.


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## samphony (Sep 17, 2021)

Ray Sharp said:


> Preset management in S1 is next level, I've gone from large cumbersome templates in logic to fast nimble use only what you need presets in S1. You an save preset folders per project drop and drag entire sections in one go, loading presets form browser just as fast as enable/disable track in logic.



It is only useful for certain workflows. especially if you use one instrument per track. The whole system wasn’t designed for use cases involving multiple tracks pointing to the same instrument (vep for example) same goes for music loops. 

There is still no way to select a couple tracks and save them as a preset to recall everything later including routing and (optionally) events on tracks. 

Import song data is also not the answer for my specific workflows as it forces the tracks to be added at the end of the track list. This is especially frustrating when using drag and drop as it doesn’t behave the same way like dragging a music loop or preset in between tracks does.


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## wst3 (Sep 22, 2021)

please do report back, as output configuration is one of my "sticking points."

It seems natural and logical to return each instrument to a separate track just as I would if all the instruments were hosted in S1. Seems logical<G>. Fact is I submix all the time, and I may even be overdoing that.

On the other hand, I don't find mixing in VEPro to flow naturally, if that makes sense. If pre-mixing in VEPro saves time then I need to reconsider it.


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## PaulieDC (Sep 22, 2021)

Fibigero said:


> After many years in Logic Pro I wanted to switch to studio one and quickly noticed two things:
> 
> The video functions are almost non existent (compared to other DAWs), like e.g. you don't see a dedicated video track and the video is at the beginning of the session by default. You can only move it with "off sets" etc..
> ...


I actually started on Studio One in 2013 and for 4 years I used it for recording church services multitrack, then mixing them later. Fell in love with the interface, built-in Melodyne, mastering, advanced drag and drop. Four years ago the MIDI Orchestration bug bit hard and for the first two years of learning things at night after work, I evangelized S1 a lot and back then there wasn't a huge user base. In 2019 I switched to and committed to Cubase, and believe me, I felt like I was betrayimg a friend (man are we weird about our DAWs), but I knew it was time. It wasn't until doing that, that I realized why Cubase is the big machine for this type of work. Two years later I use it for everything now, sadly don't remember my way around in S1 any longer.

One thing to note however... I left Studio One at v4. When v5.2 came out, a LOT of MIDI features were introduced. I still believe S1 will come of age, but it's going to be a rollercoaster ride because the dev and marketing team seem to work in spurts. S1 has a big presence in the EDM and pop/rock world, so you may wait months for a new release and when you get it, that version will be all about EDM and not a whole lot of MIDI Orchestration. Then a year later, you'll get that. It all depends on your capability vs the software. If you grow as a composer and start hitting a wall with S1, that's an issue. You won't hit that wall with Cubase, look at all of the major players that use it. Also, your access to MIDI Orchestration tutorials on Cubase is WAY larger than Studio One-specific tutorials in that area. And just finding MIDI composing videos in general, you'll be surprised how many are shot with the host using Cubase. For instance, Guy Michelmore switched from Logic to Cubase and isn't looking back. He shoots out great tutorials and you learn Cubase just watching him do his thing.

The reason I pitch Cubase also is, if you like the look and feel of Studio One, Cubase is similar in many ways because one or more of the S1 developers used to be on the Cubase team.


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## ka00 (Sep 23, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> I still believe S1 will come of age, but it's going to be a rollercoaster ride because the dev and marketing team seem to work in spurts. S1 has a big presence in the EDM and pop/rock world, so you may wait months for a new release and when you get it, that version will be all about EDM and not a whole lot of MIDI Orchestration.


I’m a relatively new user of S1 compared to you, and am actually quite impressed by the number of orchestration related features that came out since I first started paying attention to S1.

As far as working in spurts, I think they release updates almost quarterly instead of waiting a year for new features. That's not a bad thing. I think that might allow them to get feedback on new features from their users at a much quicker pace than Steinberg.

For example, 5.1 came out only 11 months ago, and since then they've been able to listen to feedback and test how features are working out for users and have implemented changes in the form of 5.2, 5.3 and 5.4. All in the last 11 months. And a lot of those changes have not really been EDM focussed, but instead were composer focused (sound variations, track filtering, score printing).

Is there room for improvement? Sure. I personally complain a lot about the slowness of track filtering with large track counts, but even that feature was only introduced 11 months ago, so there's no reason for me to think they can't optimize it for the the next update.


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## Jackdnp121 (Sep 23, 2021)

me switching from Logic to cubase to studio one now ….
if you are looking for video feature and largest template, atm I reckon cubase is best out of those 3 … however I love studio one it is so easy to use to compose and the score editor / piano editor / work flow just suits me … but I don’t use any templates …


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## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Sep 23, 2021)

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> Have to agree that S1 still can't properly handle a huge amount of tracks. But, at some point I realized that huge templates make zero sense to me(and in general ig).
> Here is a few reasons why and how I changed workflow:
> 
> I was using some instruments only because they were there, not because I needed it really bad.
> ...


My God, I just reread this message. Sorry, guys, often I type from a phone and its auto correction option messes things up pretty bad in the last few months 
I could barely understand what I wrote 😄


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## PaulieDC (Sep 23, 2021)

ka00 said:


> ...so there's no reason for me to think they can't optimize it for the the next update.


Agreed. 5.2 was a game-changer in that they really lifted up the MIDI capability. They did notation and a form of expression control that we didn't think would come this quick. And all that will get improved. If they see people jumping to S1 for orchestration (which they are), I'm sure they'll improve the more "pro" areas such as better video support and bigger template support.

Here's my question about what I remember from Studio One: Do you _need _a huge template? S1 for a long time has had track presets that you can make and save, which you can set up with any instrument and articulation you have available. Why not create a base template, create all the track presets you'd want (same as creating them in a template), then add the track presets on-the-fly as needed? It's probably as fast as enabling an existing track like in Cubase. That would seem like a lean powerful workflow and not bog down S1/CPU... unless I don't remember it right.

BTW, the latest 5.4 is still installed on my tower and I keep it updated.


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## PaulieDC (Sep 23, 2021)

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> My God, I just reread this message. Sorry, guys, often I type from a phone and its auto correction option messes things up pretty bad *in the last few months*
> I could barely understand what I wrote 😄


OK, it's not just me!


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## Robert Kooijman (Sep 25, 2021)

Hmm, here with 300-400 tracks (most hosted in 33 Vepro instances), Show / hide all tracks takes *much* longer.
And while showing / hiding, CPU load doesn't seem to change at all when checking Windows task manager. Could it be that Studio One tries to offload this to the GPU? In this case using the motherboards integrated graphics (instead of using a dedicated GPU card) could explain this. But that's just a wild guess...


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## Macrawn (Sep 25, 2021)

Crossroads said:


> No one is having a big template. It can't handle it period. Until they do something about the saving and loading times.
> 
> However, you could look into creating presets, it handles that beautifully. Depends on whether you are married to a big template or not. I know I am. But honestly I know that the preset workflow is just as fast. It's just a matter of preference.
> 
> ...


Maybe true before the Studio One 4 amd up but they have done major improvements on both save time and template management. 

Not sure about super large template performance as I use about 100 tracks max but if people are speaking about experiences with it prior to version 4 (now on version 5) it needs reevaluation because a lot of work has been done on template management, articulations mapping and so forth. 

I would like to know if people with Studio One 5 have large template bogging down problems. I don't think experiences prior to studio one 4 are really legit as to how far studio one has gone since then.


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## ennbr (Sep 25, 2021)

Macrawn said:


> I would like to know if people with Studio One 5 have large template bogging down problems. I don't think experiences prior to studio one 4 are really legit as to how far studio one has gone since then.


I have 800+ tracks in my template BUT I store all of that using the Studio One Browser and MusicLoops. The net result is some disk is used to store my Template data with no CPU or Memory usage. 

There was a time I would have hundreds of disabled tracks setup in Studio One but using MusicLoops is just as convent and is about the same time as Enabling Tracks now I just drag and drop the instrument into my project and it's ready to play. Plus I can audition the instruments from the Browser using this method.


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## samphony (Sep 25, 2021)

Still it’s too slow. We have to put it in context. Meaning say you are working on a cue for a scene or production music and you want to quickly switch to show only tracks with data under cursor. It works but it is getting in the way. Not building a full fledged template but s skeleton with stems and vcas in place has another benefit. I also moved away from folders as I prefer filtering over scrolling and opening and closing folders.


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## JyTy (Sep 25, 2021)

Farkle said:


> In studio one, you have to tick an option that says "cache unchanged plugins", or something. If you don't, it resaves each plugin's settings every time you save, and you get 4 min (!) save times. If you tick the option, it only saves any changed VST's, and your save time goes down to about 5 seconds.
> 
> Mike


How does this work with VEPRO instances?


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## JyTy (Sep 25, 2021)

I'm working on a project with about 150+ tracks right now... Studio One works super smooth!
But I run all my libraries through VEPRO (on the same computer). Tried to re-do the same projects and run the same libraries within S1 - worked horribly, even crashed S1 occasionally (v 5.3)!

Regarding save times, it takes some time as I have coupled instances in VEPRO and it takes as much time to save as VEPRO needs to save them... If you decouple them saving is super fast (one way is that you save VEPRO project separately on a per-project basis, decouple instances and saves are fast - and check the option to always ask you to save on quit so you don't forget OR you are the person that sets up one type of sound and uses it across the project, then you have one server project and hook multiple of projects in it, decoupled). My autosaves are set each hour, as S1 never crashed with VEPRO setup in the past two years so I trust it 

I started to build a huge template with all the libraries I own (with all of the articulations, using Art Conductor) - but with a template as big as this I like the workflow much more in S1 - working with Articulations (aka expression maps) is a breeze compared to Cubase! + I really like FADERPORT and their iPad app - One more thing about this; for Cubase you pay around 15eur for their iPad app, but on a bigger template it is useless, not working for me at all. On the other hand, S1 iPad app is free and works smoothly at all times even on huge templates.

I have 10 Instances with 1500+ Instruments in VEPRO, I have now transferred around 300 tracks, everything still running smoothly... I'll give you an update once I'm done...

For comparison, the latest Cubase handles this template without any issues, but loading 1500+ expression maps one by one killed everything I liked about Cubase lol  Not to mention that when you have to change let's say a channel configuration on a Sound Set, S1 does it right!


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## samphony (Sep 25, 2021)

JyTy said:


> I'm working on a project with about 150+ tracks right now... Studio One works super smooth!
> But I run all my libraries through VEPRO (on the same computer). Tried to re-do the same projects and run the same libraries within S1 - worked horribly, even crashed S1 occasionally (v 5.3)!
> 
> Regarding save times, it takes some time as I have coupled instances in VEPRO and it takes as much time to save as VEPRO needs to save them... If you decouple them saving is super fast (one way is that you save VEPRO project separately on a per-project basis, decouple instances and saves are fast - and check the option to always ask you to save on quit so you don't forget OR you are the person that sets up one type of sound and uses it across the project, then you have one server project and hook multiple of projects in it, decoupled). My autosaves are set each hour, as S1 never crashed with VEPRO setup in the past two years so I trust it
> ...



True. Cubendo is well behind when it comes to management of expression maps


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## Tren (Sep 26, 2021)

Does anyone know how to stop Studio One from emulating ornaments when you import musicxml from a notation software via Notion exchange?

Short of going through the notation and deleting all of the Scoring symbols? That’s a terrible default for anything that isn’t a keyboard instrument, BTW…


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## Toecutter (Oct 1, 2021)

ka00 said:


> Just an update, I am still building my template and am up to 200 tracks at the moment.
> 
> I’ve observed the fastest project load times and quickest track visibility operations performance when I used one VEP instance per server/computer, and with as few audio outputs as practical. I chose 16 channels per server but I am doing almost all mixing in VEP and just sending back stereo bus outputs per instrument group (one for Strings, one for Brass, one for reverb, etc).
> 
> ...


Thanks ka00! I installed the most recent version again to test and it's pretty much the same here... >300 tracks is still a no go


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## Denkii (Oct 1, 2021)

The range of reports about speed seems weird.
I assume most of you have a comparatively modern, beefy rig.

If you report whatever times certain actions need, would you start mentioning whether you're on mac or Windows, too?
I feel like there has to be a culprit (or some of them) here that's not yet obvious and it can't only be the amount of tracks.

I'm on windows, I have a couple of templates.
Most of them are 300+ tracks based of sections in separate folders.
I don't run Kontakt multis with different outs.
It's always one instance per instrument. Yes, I have *a lot* of Kontakt instances running.

Saving is almost instant.
Loading a project of course depends on how much is enabled (i mix in project and once I go into mixing I disable everything I didn't use) but nothing like some reports here mentioned.
Filtering tracks can be a bit slower but depending on what I'm looking for it maybe takes like 2 seconds max? 
If I had to guess, a macro like "only show used parts within selection"...maybe 3-4 seconds?
I never found S1 to be annoyingly sluggish.

I agree that it would benefit from better video integration though. If video is your thing, stay away. Other than that I fell in love with it.
Came from Cubase->Live->Cubase->S1 with some playtime for FL and Cakewalk in between.
Wouldn't open cubase again if I can avoid it.


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## iMovieShout (Oct 2, 2021)

I tried S1, Logic Pro, Ableton for large templates, and decided on Nuendo which can handle pretty much anything. I now have a master template with 14000+ tracks, supported by VEP7 and it's a no brainer. Very happy with Nuendo and VEP7 combo


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## samphony (Oct 2, 2021)

cedricm said:


> 5.4 has at least 2 features that may be of help: much faster autosaves and the possibility to let VST/i(s) that are not used auto sleep & wake up, freeing processor usage: Plug-In Nap.
> Plus of course native M1 support for those who need it.




Plugin nap is not available for VIs!


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## ka00 (Oct 2, 2021)

ka00 said:


> I’m on a beefy 2020 iMac with 128GB RAM. I have a good PC I can try on for comparison when I have some more free time.


I did a little experiment to compare the speed of a Show All operation on 700 empty tracks in Studio One 5.4.

Here's what I did:
1. Created 700 empty tracks in a blank Studio One 5.4 project with no instruments being created (just tracks).
2. Next, I filtered the track view down to one track.
3. Finally, I X'd out the filter term in order to Show All tracks.

What I timed on three different systems was how long Step 3 took.

Here were the results:

iMac 2020 (3.8Ghz 8-core i7, 128GB RAM)
Show All took 11 seconds.

Windows 10 PC (3.9GHz 8-core AMD Ryzen 7 3800X , 64GB RAM)
Show All took 12 seconds.

M1 MacBook Air with 16GB of RAM.
Show All took 8.5 seconds.


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## Lukas (Oct 3, 2021)

cedricm said:


> 5.4 has at least 2 features that may be of help: much faster autosaves


However, almost everyone who is after faster save times uses the "Use cached plug-in data on save" already so 5.4 does not give any further improvement in terms of save times. It just makes sure this option is always used for autosave.


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## cedricm (Oct 3, 2021)

ka00 said:


> I did a little experiment to compare the speed of a Show All operation on 700 empty tracks in Studio One 5.4.
> 
> Here's what I did:
> 1. Created 700 empty tracks in a blank Studio One 5.4 project with no instruments being created (just tracks).
> ...


Those are awful results that shouldn't be hard to optimize, let's hope the S1 team has an interest in the composer/heavy track users market. Although it seems some composers are switiching away from the mega template workflow.
Deleting my previous post since it doesn't seem to be relevant.

I reproduced your 700 track test on my computer and it's much faster, if nothing to boast about: 4.8 seconds to show all.
AMD Ryzen 7 3700X, 64 GB RAM, no effort to optimize (Outlook open + Edge with a dozen of tabs open + Firefox + VST Host and so forth).


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## sundrowned (Oct 3, 2021)

Is autosave supposed to work in the background in 5.4 because it doesn't for me. It locks up and I get the preset repackaging window which depending on how many VIs I have loaded can take quite a while. It's very annoying.


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## Lukas (Oct 3, 2021)

sundrowned said:


> Is autosave supposed to work in the background in 5.4


No.


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## Gingerbread (Oct 3, 2021)

Out of curiosity, given that the OP had switched from Logic to S1, what are the advantages of S1 that would lead to that decision, to the orchestral composer?


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## sundrowned (Oct 3, 2021)

ka00 said:


> I did a little experiment to compare the speed of a Show All operation on 700 empty tracks in Studio One 5.4.
> 
> Here's what I did:
> 1. Created 700 empty tracks in a blank Studio One 5.4 project with no instruments being created (just tracks).
> ...


Just did the same. 9 seconds on Windows 3.7GHz 6-core i7-8700K, 64GB RAM. CPU doesn't show anything happening so it's probably all in studio one.


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## ka00 (Oct 3, 2021)

I tested how long Show All takes on my iMac per 100 new empty tracks added to the project.

100 tracks 0.7 sec
200 tracks 1.5 sec
300 tracks 2.5 sec
400 tracks 3.7 sec
500 tracks 5.2 sec
600 tracks 7.3 sec
700 tracks 9.6 sec
800 tracks 12.7 sec
900 tracks 16 sec
1000 tracks 19.8 sec

Looks like the more tracks you add, the more the slowness compounds. Number of tracks in blue. Time it takes in Green.






Also, at 1000 tracks, Hide All (i.e. filtering to show tracks with a name that doesn't exist) took 29 seconds.


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## samphony (Oct 3, 2021)

ka00 said:


> Also, at 1000 tracks, Hide All (i.e. filtering to show tracks with a name that doesn't exist) took 29 seconds.



I didn’t bother testing this as it is already slow with just 150 tracks. Your results make it unusable for this type of workflow. 

But I’m highly confident that this can and will be improved!


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## cedricm (Oct 4, 2021)

ka00 said:


> What resolution and refresh rate is your screen running at? If it's very different from mine, I will add those details for my three machines, in case it makes a difference.


60 Hz, 4K.
I also have a second monitor 1920x1200, 60 Hz.


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## Robert Kooijman (Oct 4, 2021)

ka00 said:


> I agree on both accounts.
> 
> For now, I am dealing with it by trying to keep the track count as lean as possible, and by trying to toggle visibility only from one subset of tracks to another. Like from strings to brass, etc. Or from tracks with events to only soloed tracks etc.


Yes, workarounds like these are unfortunately needed when using S1 with larger track counts.

One way is to keep unused template tracks in a single "template" folder, and hide them (keeping the folder deselected in the track list). This can speed up visibility functions a lot. But there's a problem:

"Find track" works OK on visible, un-hidden tracks. So relatively fast.
"Edit/filter track" however also takes hidden tracks / folders in to account.
This means that all previously hidden template tracks are searched for, and become visible when matching the search condition. From there on, you get in the slow lane again until you hide your template folder. Macros that use edit/filter visibility functions become pretty much un-usable.

An option to exclude hidden tracks from visibility functions would be helpful, especially until the terrible performance with larger track counts gets fixed.


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## iMovieShout (Oct 4, 2021)

ka00 said:


> Wow, 14000 tracks? How many servers x12 dual CPU servers





ka00 said:


> Wow, 14000 tracks? How many servers?


So, x10 dual-CPU servers running VEP7, and then a local VEP7 server running on my studio PC.


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## Toecutter (Oct 6, 2021)

jpb007.uk said:


> I tried S1, Logic Pro, Ableton for large templates, and decided on Nuendo which can handle pretty much anything. I now have a master template with 14000+ tracks, supported by VEP7 and it's a no brainer. Very happy with Nuendo and VEP7 combo


Yep Nuendo/Cubase is the only DAW that can take this kind of beating, I know a composer who is doing 8000 hidden tracks (a crapload of underscore stuff) and I thought it was amazing XD 14000 wow... what are the specs of the computer running Nuendo?


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## iMovieShout (Oct 7, 2021)

Thanks 
So my Nuendo PC spec is Dual CPU (Intel 2696v3), with SuperMicro x10DAI m/board, 256GB DDR4 memory, AMD Radeon WX7100 GPU. Not the fastest but does the job.
This runs a small VEP7 server template, with another x10 VEP7 servers on a bunch of Dell servers.


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## cedricm (Oct 7, 2021)

jpb007.uk said:


> Thanks
> So my Nuendo PC spec is Dual CPU (Intel 2696v3), with SuperMicro x10DAI m/board, 256GB DDR4 memory, AMD Radeon WX7100 GPU. Not the fastest but does the job.
> This runs a small VEP7 server template, with another x10 VEP7 servers on a bunch of Dell servers.


I assume your Nuendo PC lays in another room than you?


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## iMovieShout (Oct 7, 2021)

cedricm said:


> I assume your Nuendo PC lays in another room than you?


Why would you say that?


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## cedricm (Oct 7, 2021)

jpb007.uk said:


> Why would you say that?


Isn't it noisy? I remember our Dual CPU servers certainly were.


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## iMovieShout (Oct 7, 2021)

cedricm said:


> I assume your Nuendo PC lays in another room than you?


Why would you say that? Its about 


cedricm said:


> Isn't it noisy? I remember our Dual CPU servers certainly were.


Not much noisier than a regular PC, but its not a server. It's a workstation PC running Windows 10Pro, though it does have quite a few fans to keep it cool and sits next to the aircon near my desk. Tends to stay around 46degrees Celsius. The real heat and noise is in the machine room where the servers are.


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## PaulieDC (Nov 9, 2021)

ka00 said:


> I’m a relatively new user of S1 compared to you, and am actually quite impressed by the number of orchestration related features that came out since I first started paying attention to S1...


Just saw this response, and glad to hear it! As far as the future, wow, it's anyone's guess what Fender Incorporated will do with it. Fender now owns the makings of a flagship DAW, it's up to them to ruin it which would be terrible. A few years back when S1 was still in the eye of rock/pop producers, people were leaving ProTools in droves, so much so that all of the major tutorial vendors like Groove3 were putting out videos on switching from ProTools to Studio One, plus YouTube was chock full of those. Speaks of the well-designed layout. It's a great UI.


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## PaulieDC (Nov 9, 2021)

jpb007.uk said:


> Why would you say that? Its about
> 
> Not much noisier than a regular PC, but its not a server. It's a workstation PC running Windows 10Pro, though it does have quite a few fans to keep it cool and sits next to the aircon near my desk. Tends to stay around 46degrees Celsius. The real heat and noise is in the machine room where the servers are.


I built my rig in a huge 12-bay Antec 1200 case with 3 inbound and 2 outbound fans, and once I stuck it under my desk (which is up against a wall) and put the new(ish) 88 key controller in front of the desk, the noise level is not a problem for me either. If the regular house HVAC is running I can't even hear the PC. That case is heavy steel, weighs 35lbs empty which I believe helps with noise. It's also not a server, just a 14-core workstation.


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## Roland-Music (Dec 30, 2021)

Fibigero said:


> The video functions are almost non existent (compared to other DAWs)


These are the main issues with Studio One -* non existing video functions, *not the track count, this works, when it's organized well.

You have *no video track* with thumbnails, where you see fit your Markers, no *timecode* on the video screen, *beat mapping* for Hit- and Waypoints doesn't exist, you must create tempo changes manually to get a picture to an up or downbeat.

And all Feature requests on this topics "score to picture" are ignored or have no priority since years...


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## JonS (Dec 30, 2021)

Fibigero said:


> After many years in Logic Pro I wanted to switch to studio one and quickly noticed two things:
> 
> The video functions are almost non existent (compared to other DAWs), like e.g. you don't see a dedicated video track and the video is at the beginning of the session by default. You can only move it with "off sets" etc..
> 
> ...





Fibigero said:


> After many years in Logic Pro I wanted to switch to studio one and quickly noticed two things:
> 
> The video functions are almost non existent (compared to other DAWs), like e.g. you don't see a dedicated video track and the video is at the beginning of the session by default. You can only move it with "off sets" etc..
> 
> ...


If you are on a Mac and you don't want to use Logic I strongly suggest you try Digital Performer.


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## NeonMediaKJT (May 17, 2022)

Sorry to resurrect, but I’m curious. Have Preston’s suggested that they intend to fix the sluggishness of studio one in high track count projects and are they intending on adding more video features soon?


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## Lukas (May 17, 2022)

It should have been improved massively in the 5.5 update (January).



But it's better if a few others chime on for more feedback...


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## samphony (May 17, 2022)

It got much better and doesn’t slow down like it did before. Although I hope the developers can improve the show hide functionality a bit further when it comes to speed.


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## NuNativs (May 17, 2022)

With a big template say upwards of 1000+ tracks, S1 has horrendous load/save times. I believe it's because of the architecture of having to load all instruments into one window even if the tracks are DISABLED! 

Cubase is the best game in town for handling large templates. Whether or not they are a good thing is to be debated.


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## Roland-Music (May 18, 2022)

NeonMediaKJT said:


> adding more video features soon


Haaah, more video feature: S1 is the only major DAW that has NO video track with Thumbs, and the poor video Player has no TimeCode Display. The video Features topics never touched by development since years.....


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## NeonMediaKJT (May 18, 2022)

Roland-Music said:


> Haaah, more video feature: S1 is the only major DAW that has NO video track with Thumbs, and the poor video Player has no TimeCode Display. The video Features topics never touched by development since years.....


do you think they'll add it?


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## xanderscores (May 19, 2022)

Roland-Music said:


> Haaah, more video feature: S1 is the only major DAW that has NO video track with Thumbs, and the poor video Player has no TimeCode Display. The video Features topics never touched by development since years.....


Missing thumbnails and video track, yes, indeed a major issue which is hard to find a way around.

Let's upvote that feature request: https://answers.presonus.com/12643/video-track-that-can-be-moved-on-the-timeline


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## Scripter (May 19, 2022)

xanderscores said:


> Missing thumbnails and video track, yes, indeed a major issue which is hard to find a way around.
> 
> Let's upvote that feature request: https://answers.presonus.com/12643/video-track-that-can-be-moved-on-the-timeline


Definitely more members have to vote for more and better video features. S1 is really really but behind, which is really sad cause besides that i quite like S1. <3


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## Roland-Music (May 20, 2022)

xanderscores said:


> Let's upvote that feature request: https://answers.presonus.com/12643/video-track-that-can-be-moved-on-the-timeline


This video thumb request has more than 430 votes, they have released requests for the Project Page f.e. with less than 200 votes....

Scoring to picture has no focus, as you see on the presonus S1 sphere video events or on their YT Channel. 

Also DolbyAtmos , 5.1 or 7.2 Surround mixing is also not in their focus. S1 Users need a 2nd DAW for this...


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## MarcusD (May 20, 2022)

Not so sure about VE Pro, but if you're trying to do it off one machine, it doesn't seem to cope too well with high track counts. Espshially with split articulations. When I started building a EWHO Diamond template, the performance started to slow down noticeably after about 350-400 tracks, so much so it's prevented me from doing the template, even with tracks disabled in the project. 

With Cubase I've had no problems with performance when it comes to high track counts, other than the PC bottlenecking when it's at the limits of performance. But even so, there's no interface slow down or GUI latency when performing tasks.


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## samphony (May 20, 2022)

Of I use it for movie work I always load my reels into videosync or pro tools. But yes the multi lane video thumbnail tracks are clearly missing. 

Pro tools Ultimate allows to use 64 video tracks. Nuendo/ Cubase 2. 

Maybe some of you could describe their use case(s) how you would use video in Studio One so @Lukas can take notes.


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## Mike Olson (May 20, 2022)

I don't believe scoring to picture will ever be in Fenders wheelhouse.


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## Roland-Music (May 21, 2022)

This video shows nearly everything what S1 needs for effective scoring to picture ...
- video track 
- beat mapping 
- hitpoint markers


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (May 21, 2022)

How does S1 work with VEP is what I'd like to know. Any problem i should be aware of? Cause i have an extra machine or 2 that I'd like to have most of my template on. I'd like to be able to disable tracks in S1 without off loading samples on my VEP machine.


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## muziksculp (May 21, 2022)

Roland-Music said:


> Also DolbyAtmos , 5.1 or 7.2 Surround mixing is also not in their focus. S1 Users need a 2nd DAW for this...


Hoping they will add this in S1Pro 6


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## 60s Pop Man (May 21, 2022)

Mike Olson said:


> I don't believe scoring to picture will ever be in Fenders wheelhouse.


My 2¢ as an observer without any insider information or industry clout-

Opening the lens a bit wider, the wheelhouse that is Fender, maker of legendary guitars, basses, and amps, now includes S1, a daw that has grown exponentially since its inception.

Charvel and Jackson guitars, icons of 80’s big hair music, continue to thrive as separate companies under Fender ownership.

It’s fair to say that compared to Gibson’s abysmal record of acquiring and killing beloved apps, there is reason to be optimistic about Fender ownership of Presonus as a separate company with its own roadmap for product development.


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## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (May 21, 2022)

Mike Olson said:


> I don't believe scoring to picture will ever be in Fenders wheelhouse.


Why not? It seems that all linear DAWs have the same direction of development these days - being universal.


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## samphony (May 22, 2022)

Maybe the way media is scored for changes over time as well?


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## Emanuel Fróes (Jan 1, 2023)

Fibigero said:


> After many years in Logic Pro I wanted to switch to studio one and quickly noticed two things:
> 
> The video functions are almost non existent (compared to other DAWs), like e.g. you don't see a dedicated video track and the video is at the beginning of the session by default. You can only move it with "off sets" etc..
> 
> ...


One of the reasons i stay with Logic despite some flaws is the SAFETY. I came form Notion 6 , after losing some pieces of work i can´t recover ever.

Bur i wonder, what made you go to Studio One?

By the way, Logic crashed now after me recording. Even though I recovered what i recently recorded. Also VEP is not safe for me as i wished, i stoped using it for a while after losing another recording. For improvisers this is crucial.


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