# Thomas Bergersen's Hybrid Symphony "Seven"



## Lionel Schmitt

I'm extremely excited about this upcoming project since months! Will finally be out 7.07.19 (when else haha)

From his website:

_Seven is Thomas’ first Symphony. The seamless mix of traditional orchestra and choir with electronic elements paves the way for modern day Symphonic work.

Perhaps the most labor intensive and unique production of Thomas’ to date, Seven took over 4 years to complete and was recorded with Capellen Orchestra under the direction of Maestro Petr Pololanik.

Seven follows the life of a human being from birth to death and digs deep into the full range of human emotions, from happiness, wonder, sadness, tragedy, love and beauty. The entire symphony is centered around the recurrence of the number 7 as it is found in everything from spirituality, religion, mathematics, history and culture.

Without doubt Thomas’ proudest accomplishment to date, and a very personal deep dive into the endless well of human complexity and spirituality. _

Edit:
Out now just about everywhere. For streaming on Spotify


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## BenG

Been looking forward to this! Always nice to hear new music from such talented composers


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## brenneisen

DarkestShadow said:


> the worlds first hybrid-symphony



uh, no


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## tonaliszt

Wow, I'm very curious and excited for this!


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## erica-grace

brenneisen said:


> uh, no



+1



Not saying they were the first, but 20 years ago, was WAY before TJB

That said, i am definitely looking forward to this.


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## paularthur

Lucky number 7! Exciting!


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## Lionel Schmitt

erica-grace said:


> +1
> 
> 
> 
> Not saying they were the first, but 20 years ago, was WAY before TJB
> 
> That said, i am definitely looking forward to this.



Nah, Thomas was referring to the seamless blend between traditional large scale western orchestral writing and electronic elements, not metal. (Although I guess technically this could also be called a hybrid. Has become more of a term for electronics in music though)
Also, I don't know S&M - but is it actually a symphony? With symphony structure and movements intended as one piece in different parts? Or just metal songs with some orchestra behind?
Based on what I read it's the latter.
And just from an artistic perspective - in the case of S&M the metal and orchestra were written by different people. In Thomas case has married electronics and orchestra all himself to become a symphony. So I expect a much more natural feel and coherence.


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## Shad0wLandsUK

Bergersen strikes again! 

See you all in 6 hours...


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## Shad0wLandsUK

Until then...


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## Bluemount Score

Gonna be there for sure. Bergersen is my all time favorite composer and biggest inspiration.


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## Lionel Schmitt

Stream link has changed for some reason - updated above. If you have the old one open it will show it's gone.


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## erica-grace

DarkestShadow said:


> Nah, Thomas was referring to the seamless blend between traditional large scale western orchestral writing and electronic elements, not metal. (Although I guess technically this could also be called a hybrid. Has become more of a term for electronics in music though)



Yes - hybrid is hybrid, the genre that the orchestra is mixed with does not make it, or not make it "hybrid".


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## Bluemount Score

I don't care if it's the first if it's gonna be the best


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## Lionel Schmitt

erica-grace said:


> Yes - hybrid is hybrid, the genre that the orchestra is mixed with does not make it, or not make it "hybrid".


But is it a symphony? (Actually "hybrid" definition shifting towards electronics does matter. If a publisher asks you for a hybrid orchestral track and you deliver orchestra and metal they will kick you)


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## Lionel Schmitt

Stream is starting in a few minutes. I will not hear anything because I need to use the public city Wifi and loud bands are playing. But well, will be released tomorrow. In some time zones it's out already or in a few hours.


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## MartinH.

Chat seems to love it, but so far it's not quite my cup of tea. Hope you'll like it more when you get a chance to listen.


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## Daniel James

Was it any good? I missed it.

-DJ


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## Bluemount Score

Daniel James said:


> Was it any good? I missed it.
> 
> -DJ


It was horrible and the chats hate escalated so much that the servers crashed

Nah, it was perfect. Very deep emotional stuff. Great synth sound design and huge epicness, from birth to death. Lots of unheard sound combinations. Can't wait to listen to the whole thing


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## erica-grace

DarkestShadow said:


> But is it a symphony?



Yes, of course.



DarkestShadow said:


> Actually "hybrid" definition shifting towards electronics does matter.



Disagree there. Hybrid does not mean nor imply _electronic._


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## Shad0wLandsUK

Oh man I totally missed out on this, got stuck on something else and thought it would be uploaded to listen to or at least teasers...

Missed it


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## Jediwario1

I just listened from start to finish (found the full album on YouTube uploaded by CDBaby).

Overall I was a bit disappointing considering I loved "American Dream". I was also expecting more hybrid/synth elements but it was mainly orchestral with little extra bits sprinkled in.

Pros: Strings sound lovely. Nice dynamic range. I really enjoyed the first track (once the strings come in).

Cons: loud parts sound very compressed (fatiguing). Some parts I thought didn't need the choir. Themes weren't memorable (but maybe I need a few more listens).


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## Lionel Schmitt

erica-grace said:


> Yes, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> Disagree there. Hybrid does not mean nor imply _electronic._


Nothing here suggests that S&M is a symphony, especially since there are apparently also songs from previous albums on there with some orchestra slapped behind it by Michael Kamen. I also cannot see it being referred to as a symphony anywhere else. 
(Symphony & Metal yes, but that refers to the style, doesn't mean the whole album is meant to function as a symphony with all tracks being movements of it.)

And, hybrid is more and more implying the implementation of electronics whether you like it or not.  That's what you are finding when searching for it in most style/genre sorted places like production music pages https://www.universalproductionmusi...d&qtext=hybrid&vtag=1&vwave=1&vdesc=1&ktype=6


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## Lionel Schmitt

Out almost everywhere now. For streaming as usual on Spotify 
I'm amazed overall. Some parts I didn't like a lot, a lot of parts I loved and the most crying I had all year.  5 times I think and it's only out for a day.
(But I also thought the louder parts where over compressed on the mastering stage - unfortunately as usual with Thomas/TSFH in general)


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## muk

DarkestShadow said:


> But is it a symphony?



It's not a symphony in the traditional meaning of the term. But neither is Thomas Bergersen's Seven. The term symphony not only implies the use of the traditional western culture orchestra by definition, and a coherent piece of music that is formed by several (usually four) related movements. It also implies the use of traditional western music form, i. e. at least one movement (usually the first, often the last as well. But at least one) will be in sonata form. That's a criterion Mr. Bergersen's album does not match. So, in the traditional sense of the word 'Seven' is not a symphony.

Of course you can just accept the title chosen by the composer as decisive factor for the genre. But that puts you in the unfortunate position where you would have to call The Verve's "Bittersweet Symphony" a symphony (which it is clearly not, it is a song), and Walter Ruttmann's "Berlin - Die Sinfonie der Grossstadt" (which is a movie), and a myriad of books too that are called "Symphony" in their titles. 

But maybe whether it is a symphony or not, and whether it is the first hybrid anything or not, is not all that important if you like the music.


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## Parsifal666

It was good. I think TB has a long way to go. But no offense meant to fans whatsoever, he's obviously talented.

I think I might be listening to too much Shostakovich lol!


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## Gerbil

I think it's as brilliantly written as anything else I've ever heard him do. But also, for my tastes, pretty cheesy. Looking at the number of listeners who were enjoying it (judging by the relentless stream of admiration as they had their ears on the music and their fingers on their tech) it's going to bring a lot of happiness to people.


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## Lionel Schmitt

muk said:


> It's not a symphony in the traditional meaning of the term. But neither is Thomas Bergersen's Seven. The term symphony not only implies the use of the traditional western culture orchestra by definition, and a coherent piece of music that is formed by several (usually four) related movements. It also implies the use of traditional western music form, i. e. at least one movement (usually the first, often the last as well. But at least one) will be in sonata form. That's a criterion Mr. Bergersen's album does not match. So, in the traditional sense of the word 'Seven' is not a symphony.
> 
> Of course you can just accept the title chosen by the composer as decisive factor for the genre. But that puts you in the unfortunate position where you would have to call The Verve's "Bittersweet Symphony" a symphony (which it is clearly not, it is a song), and Walter Ruttmann's "Berlin - Die Sinfonie der Grossstadt" (which is a movie), and a myriad of books too that are called "Symphony" in their titles.
> 
> But maybe whether it is a symphony or not, and whether it is the first hybrid anything or not, is not all that important if you like the music.


There is obviously a difference between putting symphony in the title and describing something as a symphony and just putting it in the title.
No idea where you're going with this. Thomas describes his project as a symphony, neither Metallica nor The Verve describe their respective works as symphonies. Makes absolutely no sense what you're saying. I'm not taking it as a symphony because Thomas called it "Seven Symphony" (which he didn't) but because he described it as such, and since he is definitely very familiar with classical music and thus symphonies I'll take that. There also is coherence throughout Seven. Of course the movements are distinct but there is a line throughout it and motifs keep coming back. 
And refusing something the stance as symphony because a single criteria is broken is rather narrow minded. He said himself that it doesn't follow the rules of traditional symphonies but what else do you call a piece of music in several distinct parts that are yet connected? By calling it a hybrid-symphony he kinda made up a new term anyway, so...


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## muk

Had Beethoven described his fifth symphony as a craddle song, it would still be a symphony. And no matter how Thomas Bergersen describes this album, it does not make his music something that it is not.

And if you understand the term 'hybrid' as 'seamless blend between traditional large scale western orchestral writing and electronic elements' as you describe it, then this is hardly the first attempt either. Composers are doing this since the fifties, using tape recordings (Donaueschingen would be a relevant term here), Theremin, later synzhesizers, electric guitar (Alfred Schnittke!), live electronics... And these were actual real symphonies - by fitting the definition, not by mere description by the composer. 

No, this is an album of epic music but no symphony in the normal sense of the word. You can, of course, see this as a symphony if it makes you happy. Just don't expect anybody else to understand or agree with your usage of the term.


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## Saxer

As always I'm deeply impressed by the density and power of TB's production. He did everything right and even created this style of epicness. Chapeau! But for my personal taste it's just too much of everything and waaayyy to much compression. After listening through three songs it's like an electric kitchen hood noise for me. I switch it off and I feel "aaaaaahhhhh... finally silence again".


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## I like music

I can't seem to find it!?


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## Bluemount Score

Jediwario1 said:


> Overall I was a bit disappointing considering I loved "American Dream".


Honestly, I was a bit surprised that it only took a couple of weeks to write American Dream compared to 4 years in total to get Seven done. When I heard about that, I was expecting Seven to be way longer. Other than that, I really like both. Little fanboy here, even though I see the criticism about compression and such. Don't care too much about the symphony title.


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## Lionel Schmitt

I like music said:


> I can't seem to find it!?


Seven? It's out everywhere. Spotify for listening here:


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## Lionel Schmitt

muk said:


> Had Beethoven described his fifth symphony as a craddle song, it would still be a symphony. And no matter how Thomas Bergersen describes this album, it does not make his music something that it is not.
> 
> And if you understand the term 'hybrid' as 'seamless blend between traditional large scale western orchestral writing and electronic elements' as you describe it, then this is hardly the first attempt either. Composers are doing this since the fifties, using tape recordings (Donaueschingen would be a relevant term here), Theremin, later synzhesizers, electric guitar (Alfred Schnittke!), live electronics... And these were actual real symphonies - by fitting the definition, not by mere description by the composer.
> 
> No, this is an album of epic music but no symphony in the normal sense of the word. You can, of course, see this as a symphony if it makes you happy. Just don't expect anybody else to understand or agree with your usage of the term.


That's exactly what I meant. You were talking about titles including "Symphony" (like that The Verve song) and how this doesn't necessarily mean it's a symphony. Which I never denied since I was taking it as a symphony due to Thomas' description, not a title. 
Due to my lack of knowledge regarding symphonies I do take the descriptions of highly skilled composers for gospel unless I truly know better. 
Seven is not an album of epic music at all - it's mostly classical orchestration, with SOME typical epic parts and quite a substantial amount of hybrid integration. 
And there is a connection between the individual pieces in many places, it's all married despite being distinct. It's not a soundtrack and not an album of individual songs but a connected musical work in different parts with a lot of different aspects but mostly a symphonic character. If that doesn't fit the definition of a symphony, perhaps it just needs some upgrading.  Terms can widen over time. Not that they necessarily should - if it makes them too wide and all-encompassing they become meaningless. But since there are very few musical works that fit this description we would not see a sudden saturation of things being called "symphony", so it seems fine to me.


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## muk

Whether it's in the title or the description makes no difference. There are objective musical criteria to define the genre. In this case, they are partly met, but not totally. As you wrote it's important that all criteria are met. Otherwise a string quartet would suddenly count as a symphony as well (meets all the criteria but one, which is the number of instruments). Of course these criteria have been adapted over time. A 1950 symphony is markedly different from, say, an early Haydn symphony. And yet both do meet all the relevant criteria which defines them as a symphony. And this album does not.

If the term album of epic music does not convince you it's probably difficult to find an appropriate term. (By the way, I think there are plenty of albums where all the tracks are not individual, but tightly woven together). Album of hybrid music is certainly not far off. If at all, the narrative (the life of a human being from birth to death) would put it closer to the 'symphonic poem' than to a symphony. But it's not that either.

But in the end, if you enjoy the music it's probably not particularly relevant to which musical genre it belongs. Whether symphony or hybrid album, if you dig the music that is all that counts.


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## Dave Connor

The way around the description, _symphony _is generally to use _symphonic _as in, Symphonic Adventures! Otherwise you’re going to invite comparisons with an agreed upon form as well as composers that no one wants to be compared to : )

I guess this is “Epic” music then? It seems to me that term gets applied to large instrumental forces regardless of the writing, which is more importantly - loud!

To me epic music is, Lawrence of Arabia, The Wind and the Lion or Game of Thrones. Others come to mind as well but in most cases, a considerable depth of composition is on display. Ramin Djawadi’s work on the truly epic Game of Thrones contains epic themes that are not only uncanny in their capturing of the subject matter and it’s psychological properties, but marvelous examples of compositional invention. Orchestrated perfectly (and unusually) with not just the perfect size of forces but always the “appropriate” size that builds and recedes in the way all quality music does. That is, _the writing is epic._ In fact, Djawadi’s default is not to size or volume but to _character._ Both the character of the music and the story characters. In any case, front and center always, is writing of such quality it need never be artificially hyped and blared. It doesn’t push you back, it draws you in. The visuals and story may give you a headache, but never the music. Of course we’re talking about one of the greatest thematic writers in all of film and beyond. It would be nice if that kind of epicness rubbed off on the rest of us a little bit.


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## bbunker

Not to wade too deep into the "what makes a Symphony" or "what makes a Sonata-Allegro form" or "is it Sonata-Allegro form or the Sonata-Allegro 'idea' or 'principle' you should use" or any of that - I suppose I've said my 'piece' on all of that the old-fashioned way. Which is to say - writing about what a Symphony is or isn't, when millions more will listen to Bergersen's 'Symphony' than mine, feels like heights of hubris that I won't start climbing now. Or have I, indirectly? The curse of working in a 'creative' field... 

That said - for the people who would say "Yes of course it is" what it claims to be, or something along those lines, I really would like to understand where that's coming from more, because I was profoundly disappointed by Seven. I think it's almost entirely because this was presented as being his first "Symphony" - and since he's written a wealth of 'Symphonic' music that doesn't get that title, it feels like there's meant to be some distinctive parameters in the piece that makes it a "Symphony" and - I seem to be missing them entirely. It sounds an awful lot like a lot of the work he's done before, and uses most of the same processes, so - what's different here? What's going on? Wherefore the rapturous reception? Explain Like I'm 5!


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## Dave Connor

Considering other epic scores such as Ben Hur, Spartacus, Cleopatra, the more modern Prince of Egypt, Gladiator, Troy or even Matrix films, you find the same thing: very informed symphonic writing. If you consider large _Classical_ symphonic music with chorus such as Mahler’s 8th, Vaughan Williams’ 1st or any of the the large Elgar works, you have what are truly epic-scale creations. Which is to say that the film scores above have their roots in earlier works such as these (or at least a certain level of composition technique) and you can hear it on every level.

It may be that works that are now being called _symphonies _or even _epic _have a certain disconnect with the past and with the artistic properties that brought about those descriptions. With the emulations of these styles made for libraries used on broadcast and cable TV as well as in video games (some of which are excellent) we are getting a looser identifying process that makes it harder to understand what you’re about to hear.


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## Bluemount Score

I find it quite remarkable how different the critics are here compared to what l've read in the YouTube comments for "Deliverance" and during the pre release livestream.
I guess that's the big difference between consuming fans and producers (even though I don't know what of both would describe myself best in this case)


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## Dave Connor

Check the, Wife Argues With Me thread. People come down on all sides with any music. I’ve always admired TB’s talent and gifts and genuinely liked his music. This particular piece doesn’t do anything for me but I’m sure his fans love it and it more than fulfills their expectations. That’s going to hold true with the release of music from anyone - with very few exceptions.


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## Harzmusic

To be honest, I am torn.
I do not really care about the "symphony" definition, except that of course it raised my expectations for this to be a little different.

I did enjoy most of the album a lot, got drawn in by the music very well. And I felt there were more than one moment where he really found something profound and meaningful and "grown up" to say, which I don't feel in most of his other work.
Interesting harmonies, melodies that aren't quite as simple to the ear, but carry more emotional complexity. Interesting colors and soundscapes that pull me in.

I feel like the album is kind of fragmented though.
"You Were My Forever" I can hear in a concert setting, beautiful writing. But then in the middle of the next track he goes full "trailer-dude" again, cranks up the choir and drums and distances me from the music. It is not that I don't like the trailer sound and all, I just did not feel that in fit with other parts which I found quite phenomenal.
I feel like anytime the loud block chord choir comes in, the music gets more shallow and anytime it drops out, we are back in business.
Stand out tracks for me are Deliverance, You were my Forever and Return to Sender.

I will listen to this again with an open mind. There is something of relevance there, and some day I really want to hear the album where Thomas lets go of his "choir&drums"-reflex and really allows himself to stay in the depths that parts of this album offer.
I get that people who don't feel fatigued by that trailer-y sound enjoyed this album entirely.
Will keep following this artist with all my attention.


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## Lionel Schmitt

muk said:


> Whether it's in the title or the description makes no difference. There are objective musical criteria to define the genre. In this case, they are partly met, but not totally. As you wrote it's important that all criteria are met. Otherwise a string quartet would suddenly count as a symphony as well (meets all the criteria but one, which is the number of instruments). Of course these criteria have been adapted over time. A 1950 symphony is markedly different from, say, an early Haydn symphony. And yet both do meet all the relevant criteria which defines them as a symphony. And this album does not.
> 
> If the term album of epic music does not convince you it's probably difficult to find an appropriate term. (By the way, I think there are plenty of albums where all the tracks are not individual, but tightly woven together). Album of hybrid music is certainly not far off. If at all, the narrative (the life of a human being from birth to death) would put it closer to the 'symphonic poem' than to a symphony. But it's not that either.
> 
> But in the end, if you enjoy the music it's probably not particularly relevant to which musical genre it belongs. Whether symphony or hybrid album, if you dig the music that is all that counts.


Well, whether it's in the title has relevance in regards what is meant by the artist. When it's just in the title it doesn't mean that the artist thinks it's a symphony. But if they describe it as a symphony then they consider it to be one (So I'm for instance not in the position of having to consider this song by The Verve you mentioned to be a symphony just because of the title).
Regarding the criteria... I guess that'd be getting more complicated to discuss I don't think every single criteria of a term needs to necessarily be met (no idea where I could've have said that).
It depends on how many are broken and how important they are. 
Number of instruments can of course be a huge deal if only a handful of instruments required for the symphony term are there. 
Well, despite all the terminology wars - happy to read that you have been enjoying Seven!
I also think it has way more gravitas than most of what Thomas wrote before (despite already being a crazy fanboy haha). I also found some of the FFF trailer parts a bit overbearing mainly because of the choir and the compression at the mastering stage.


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## Patrick de Caumette

You were my forever is the only piece that i enjoyed.


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## paularthur

Anyone else have favorite piece yet?


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## Lionel Schmitt

paularthur said:


> Anyone else have favorite piece yet?


Eyes Wider and Return To Sender for me. But I love 90 - 95% of it all.


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## Parsifal666

paularthur said:


> Anyone else have favorite piece yet?



My favorite part is when its over. But I've been listening to a lot of Mahler lately. Sorry TB.


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## muk

Didn't enjoy it either. I found 'American Dreams' more interesting. I listen to his albums because his production skills are fantastic, and there's a lot to learn from that. But it's not a genre I particularly enjoy listening to.


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## Lionel Schmitt

muk said:


> Didn't enjoy it either. I found 'American Dreams' more interesting. I listen to his albums because his production skills are fantastic, and there's a lot to learn from that. But it's not a genre I particularly enjoy listening to.


I just realized after you said that you didn't enjoy it that I have been referring to the comment of another person haha. I guess I just looked at the thumbnail and they both look kinda similarly graphically.  I'm such a mess LOL


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## Wunderhorn

The whole debate about what a symphony is and is not seems pointless to me. More than a hundred years ago Gustav Mahler started to demolish the Sonata form and introducing unusual elements in to the genre.
If we want to allow classical music to live on we need to let it evolve and morph along with time. Personally, I think the addition of sound design, electronic atmosphere and other sonic enhancements is a totally legitimate way in exploring how to stretch the envelope yet into another direction.

I enjoyed the music a lot and I would wish more film and trailer composers would venture out into creating concert music that reaches past the 2 minute mark.
Of course, on merely a personal note I would have liked to see more thematic development and less comfort food, harmonically speaking. I also think that in order to amp up intensity or express grittiness it does not automatically need to mean turning up volume or throwing in heavy percussion. Unusual intervals and harmonies, playing techniques, instrumentation, rhythmic patterns and other things can do the trick well before the big blow in the face needs to come down.

However, in the end, we have a beautiful and colorful movie canvas without the need for picture and as such it works wonderfully. It beckons for some repeat listening.


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## Dave Connor

I wouldn’t say _pointless. _Not historically anyway. I also wouldn’t say people are losing any sleep over this debate either. It’s not that the description _Symphony _is sacred but rather, what is it’s _scientific _meaning? The Symphony has been expanded in its form and meaning ever since Haydn established it. Beethoven certainly redefined it as did Mahler, but all the way up to Shostakovich or even Corigliano (who’s still composing) they are all easily traceable to Haydn. Having a glance at Corigliano’s score to his 2nd Symph., I found the second movement titled, Scherzo, which is Beethoven’s innovation, differing from the Minuet of Haydn’s and Mozart’s symphonies.

Consider the way Liszt, Strauss and others use _Tone Poem _to describe large symphonic works of a programmatic nature in steering around the _Symphony _designation_._ Or, more to the point: consider how carefully composers have been identifying their works for centuries. When Ravel played a two-piano reduction of what was a commissioned _Ballet _from no less the Sergei Diaghilev, the impresario responded, _That’s not a ballet. _So at least historically, it was important to the giants of those eras. Even so, many composers including Beethoven and Mahler had been criticized for stretching the meaning of their work-titles in their day. So perhaps this is just a new stretching of _Symphony. _My concern is that one day I’m going to be asked to a baseball game only to find ten seven-foot guys trying to shoot a ball through a hoop.


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## Saxer

If someone would ask me (what probably won't happen) I'd say it's a concept album in trailer style.


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## Lionel Schmitt

Saxer said:


> If someone would ask me (what probably won't happen) I'd say it's a concept album in trailer style.


Trailer style LOL. Either you don't listen to trailer music or didn't listen to the album.


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## Parsifal666

DarkestShadow said:


> Trailer style LOL. Either you don't listen to trailer music or didn't listen to the album.



Some of it does sound a bit like that to me as well. However "You Were My Forever" is growing on me and imo seems much more expressive than the (in these times) generic cyber-cold that dominates the rest of the piece.

I couldn't care less what it's called, symphonies stopped being solely about sonata form with Mahler.


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## Dave Connor

Parsifal666 said:


> I couldn't care less what it's called


I understand. My point is that for centuries (even millennia) composers whether great or amateur _did _care - and still do. A Mass would be just that, as would be a Toccata and Fugue and so on. I can come along and say _I don’t care _but is that to my credit? If I’m commissioned to write a waltz, I’m going to write in 3/4 right? So there are real ramifications in the abandoning of some nexus between a title and a work. If we truly don’t care, then why not call TB’s work, _String Quartet No. 3_?


Parsifal666 said:


> symphonies stopped being solely about sonata form with Mahler.


 As I said Mahler _stretched _the meaning by the structural changes he made. Even so, he is a direct connection to Beethoven’s symphonies and even begins his 1st Symphony (note-for-note essentially) with Beethoven’s 4th. The nexus is crystal clear. The 20th century symphonies that follow are downright Hadynesque in their strict adherence to the the Sonata form.

My purpose is not to single out TB’s _Symphony._ There’s been a trend in the culture for some time toward a far looser labeling of musical works so as to render them meaningless. I once kidded a buddy of mine who co-wrote a piece called _Piano Concerto _with David Foster. It’s basically a piano doing a couple riffs with an orchestral accompaniment. It’s very brief. We chuckled at that and how silly the title is. In listening to _Seven_, I can’t make a connection to any aspect of any symphony by the loosest of definitions. I think that if we want to use the descriptions and labels that the giants of the past used, it should be to connect with them in some way - not disconnect.


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## Lionel Schmitt

Parsifal666 said:


> Some of it does sound a bit like that to me as well. However "You Were My Forever" is growing on me and imo seems much more expressive than the (in these times) generic cyber-cold that dominates the rest of the piece.
> 
> I couldn't care less what it's called, symphonies stopped being solely about sonata form with Mahler.


Yea, sure - some of it. But as someone who listens to a lot of trailer music I'd say that only 5-10% of it is reminiscent of typical trailer music. For the rest you'd get kicked by publishers when they ask for trailer music.


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## Patrick de Caumette

Nowadays, trailer music is downgraded by the lowest common denominator composition-wise, so yes, what TJ does is of much higher caliber, but i agree that there is a certain "epicness" and simple, catchy melodies that do put it in that realm.
After all, he has been doing just that with Nick for how many years now?
I liked his earlier years better, but composers are not his targeted audience, i assume.


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## Guffy

Eyes Wider almost sounds like leftovers from Sun (Colors of Love).

Overall i like the album (i'm a massive TB fanboy so duh), but as a whole it feels a bit disjointed, compared to let's say American Dream. I might just have to listen to it more before it sticks (as is usually the case with TB's music - i usually come to love it after a few listens).

Considering it's been 4 years in the making i do understand that it shares similarities and has been influenced by his other music during the period.

I would like him to explore more of the gentler sides, and maybe explore some fresh orchestrational devices he don't use all the time. Apparently he has a bunch of symphonies lined up going forward so who knows what 2019+ Thomas is brewing


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## Lionel Schmitt

Guffy said:


> Eyes Wider almost sounds like leftovers from Sun (Colors of Love).
> 
> Overall i like the album (i'm a massive TB fanboy so duh), but as a whole it feels a bit disjointed, compared to let's say American Dream. I might just have to listen to it more before it sticks (as is usually the case with TB's music - i usually come to love it after a few listens).
> 
> Considering it's been 4 years in the making i do understand that it shares similarities and has been influenced by his other music during the period.
> 
> I would like him to explore more of the gentler sides, and maybe explore some fresh orchestrational devices he don't use all the time. Apparently he has a bunch of symphonies lined up going forward so who knows what 2019+ Thomas is brewing


Well, American Dream is supposed to be one single piece, while it's similar with Seven the parts here are supposed to be distinct. I do hear a connection, but I'm not really looking out for it - I just appreciate what I'm hearing, connected or not. 

As far as I know from Thomas there is just one more symphonic work (he didn't call it 'symphony', so probably more a looong orchestral piece like American Dream) coming up.
The next immediate projects seem to be his solo album Humanity (2 hours of music) and a sequel to TSFH's Dragon.


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## Parsifal666

Dave Connor said:


> I understand. My point is that for centuries (even millennia) composers whether great or amateur _did _care - and still do. A Mass would be just that, as would be a Toccata and Fugue and so on. I can come along and say _I don’t care _but is that to my credit? If I’m commissioned to write a waltz, I’m going to write in 3/4 right? So there are real ramifications in the abandoning of some nexus between a title and a work. If we truly don’t care, then why not call TB’s work, _String Quartet No. 3_?
> 
> As I said Mahler _stretched _the meaning by the structural changes he made. Even so, he is a direct connection to Beethoven’s symphonies and even begins his 1st Symphony (note-for-note essentially) with Beethoven’s 4th. The nexus is crystal clear. The 20th century symphonies that follow are downright Hadynesque in their strict adherence to the the Sonata form.
> 
> My purpose is not to single out TB’s _Symphony._ There’s been a trend in the culture for some time toward a far looser labeling of musical works so as to render them meaningless. I once kidded a buddy of mine who co-wrote a piece called _Piano Concerto _with David Foster. It’s basically a piano doing a couple riffs with an orchestral accompaniment. It’s very brief. We chuckled at that and how silly the title is. In listening to _Seven_, I can’t make a connection to any aspect of any symphony by the loosest of definitions. I think that if we want to use the descriptions and labels that the giants of the past used, it should be to connect with them in some way - not disconnect.



I think you have important points here, Dave. There are of course important connections that link the Haydn-style symphony with Mahler's (and so many others).

I remember Rock guy Yngwie Malmsteen coming out with a "Concerto" cd including songs labelled things like "Adagio" and "Fugue" when the tracks contained pretty much nothing of the sort. It irritated the hell out of me (especially when young guitar noobs started telling me how great a composer he was...cracking up thinking about it). So I sympathize.


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## Dave Connor

Parsifal666 said:


> I think you have important points here, Dave. There are of course important connections that link the Haydn-style symphony with Mahler's (and so many others).


It seems the whole Neo Classic period was rather obsessed with earlier forms and so for symphonies they chose its most successful form. Baroque forms were used heavily during that period as well, usually for smaller works. It’s the 21st century, anything goes, I know. I just would hate to see a complete disconnect where artists don’t retain what’s gone before even if they depart from it in nearly every way.


DarkestShadow said:


> But as someone who listens to a lot of trailer music I'd say that only 5-10% of it is reminiscent of typical trailer music. For the rest you'd get kicked by publishers when they ask for trailer music.


Exactly. Even _trailer music_ as a description is well enough established after a few decades so that if those defining characteristics are not present someone is going to say, _That’s not trailer music. _I was simply making that case for the centuries-old _Symphony._


DarkestShadow said:


> As far as I know from Thomas there is just one more symphonic work (he didn't call it 'symphony'...)


 I didn’t see where he called it a symphony either and “symphonic” is exactly right so, not sure where all this got started.


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## Lionel Schmitt

Dave Connor said:


> I didn’t see where he called it a symphony either and “symphonic” is exactly right so, not sure where all this got started.


Well, I mean American Dream and the upcoming "symphonic" work. Seven he actually did call a "hybrid-symphony", but not the 2 others. That's what I meant.


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## Bluemount Score

DarkestShadow said:


> Well, I mean American Dream and the upcoming "symphonic" work. Seven he actually did call a "hybrid-symphony", but not the 2 others. That's what I meant.


Somewhen in late 2018, I read (most likely on Facebook) that they (Thomas and Nick) had 4 hours of new music coming up. Since then, Dragon, American Dream, Seven and a couple of singles were released. Quite a lot, but still nowhere near 4 hours in total. Humanity will be a huge album though from what I've heard and will probably take most of the left playtime.


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## Lionel Schmitt

Meetyhtan said:


> Somewhen in late 2018, I read (most likely on Facebook) that they (Thomas and Nick) had 4 hours of new music coming up. Since then, Dragon, American Dream, Seven and a couple of singles were released. Quite a lot, but still nowhere near 4 hours in total. Humanity will be a huge album though from what I've heard and will probably take most of the left playtime.


I think that was just Thomas though. Speaking for the amount of new music he has coming up.
There is also another symphonic work coming + Dragon II (work title - and last time Thomas had about 42 minutes of music on the album, so possibly next time too). And that together with Humanity is even beyond the 4 hours. Also important - he said he scrapped a lot of the tracks on Humanity - by the'll appear in other places. Probably TSFH albums or singles. I'd say producing ao much music at such a high level (with 99.9% of the whole process in his hands - no minions) is basically insane.


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## Bluemount Score

DarkestShadow said:


> I'd say producing ao much music at such a high level (with 99.9% of the whole process in his hands - no minions) is basically insane.


100% agreed here, it's totally insane. Considering everything he made in the last 10 years or so... and we only know of what he released. No composer publishes everything.


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## Markus Kohlprath

What I find interesting: If there would be a strange rule that pedal tones are completely forbidden 80% of this music would not exist (this is at least a first impression). I wasn’t aware that this device has such a dominant role for tb style.


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## Akarin

Parsifal666 said:


> My favorite part is when its over. But I've been listening to a lot of Mahler lately. Sorry TB.


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## Parsifal666

Akarin said:


>



(cracking up!)

It doesn't take a genius to figure out there ain't a thing in that "symphony" to compare with what Sir Gustav did. And imo it mostly sucks on its own.

But that's just my opinion. I do find it delightfully amusing that I received two "angry" reactions...who came up with that silly idea for this forum, anyway? Kind of turns me off in a Facebook way. I thought vi control was better than that...much better.

Though I still find myself laughing over both the angries and Will 

There's never anything wrong with something you like, so just *like* whatever it is and don't necessarily worry about what others think...why would what I think matter so much you'd put a comical frownie face up? I'm nobody.


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## Akarin

Parsifal666 said:


> (cracking up!)
> 
> It doesn't take a genius to figure out there ain't a thing in that "symphony" to compare with what Sir Gustav did. And imo it mostly sucks on its own.
> 
> But that's just my opinion. I do find it delightfully amusing that I received two "angry" reactions...who came up with that silly idea for this forum, anyway? Kind of turns me off in a Facebook way. I thought vi control was better than that...much better.
> 
> Though I still find myself laughing over both the angries and Will
> 
> There's never anything wrong with something you like, so just *like* whatever it is and don't necessarily worry about what others think...why would what I think matter so much you'd put a comical frownie face up? I'm nobody.



It's got nothing to do with your appreciation (or lack thereof) of Thomas work, it's the "I'm listening to Mahler, thus I can't appreciate something that is beneath" comment. As if it was a badge of elitism of some kind.


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## Parsifal666

Akarin said:


> It's got nothing to do with your appreciation (or lack thereof) of Thomas work, it's the "I'm listening to Mahler, thus I can't appreciate something that is beneath" comment. As if it was a badge of elitism of some kind.



Hell YEAH it was! Proud of it, my friend.


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## AllanH

I really enjoyed the music. Not every passage is a new "all time best", but he shows phenomenal compositional chops from my perspective. In places, the Choir "screams" a bit too much but I find it overall very melodic and interesting.


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