# Kendrik Lamar - what is the fuss about?



## gregh (Apr 18, 2018)

I am not from the US so don't understand a lot of the cultural aspects of that country - the current puzzler for me is Kendrik Lamar. I have seen a bunch of stuff about him winnng a Pulitzer which I understand is fairly prestigious. Why did he win? I have had a look at a few of his videos today, read some stuff about his lyrics and saw some of his videos a while back when my kids mentioned him. Seems utterly banal to me - awful vocals in the way I find most rap vocals awful and fairly mainstream underlying music. Am I missing something here that crosses cultural boundaries or is his fame more of a local and topical nature?


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## Rctec (Apr 18, 2018)

Will this help?
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/c...litical-forces-behind-kendrick-lamar-pulitzer

...I doubt it. You either get it or you don’t. I’ve known Kendrick for a while. Before he was ‘famous’, and two of the most respected musicians we have introduced me to him, saying that he was the future. And they where right!
-Hz-


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## Phillip (Apr 18, 2018)

Another cultural phenomena is McDonalds.


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## gregh (Apr 18, 2018)

heisenberg said:


> Here's what the big deal is.










that's just incredibly uninteresting to me - must just be a US thing


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## prodigalson (Apr 18, 2018)

gregh said:


> that's just incredibly uninteresting to me - must just be a US thing


 
right because only Americans appreciate the craft of spoken word and hip-hop. DEFINITELY just a US thing.


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## gregh (Apr 18, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> right because only Americans appreciate the craft of spoken word and hip-hop. DEFINITELY just a US thing.


Are you from the US ? Actually a lot of literature expresses local rather than global concerns. For me the words are deeply rooted in the US history of racism, individualism and capitalism. That history doesn't translate to other cultures perhaps as much as many people from the US think - Even the use of the term "Americans" is quite revealing of the often noted US assumption of their cultural universality


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## prodigalson (Apr 18, 2018)

I was born and raised in Europe and currently live and work in the US. And what is your point about literature? Are you saying that hip-hop expresses local rather than global concerns or literature in general?


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## Rctec (Apr 18, 2018)

gregh said:


> Are you from the US ? Actually a lot of literature expresses local rather than global concerns


I couldn’t be any less from America! ...just because I live here. I grew up on a solid diet of Mozart, Beethoven, Stravinsky, Can and Kraftwerk... And the usual writers in Goethe, Schiller, Thomas Mann, Kafka, Karl Kraus ...


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## gregh (Apr 18, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> I was born and raised in Europe and currently live and work in the US. And what is your point about literature? Are you saying that hip-hop expresses local rather than global concerns or literature in general?


I was talking about Lamar - but was neither saying that hip-hop nor literature expresses local rather than general concerns. I was saying a lot of literature does. Probably literature was the wrong term - "writing" would be a better term for what I mean


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Apr 18, 2018)

heisenberg said:


> This seems representative.
> 
> 
> 
> This one is from the album he got the Pulitzer for...



Wow.......?

"If I kill a nigger it wont be the alcohol"

I was looking forward to being pleasantly surprised. I was not.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 18, 2018)

Ever heard of Conchita Wurst? The bearded guy who dresses like a woman and won the Eurovision Song contest some years ago? He's a huge star in Austria. He sings pop songs and represents sexual equality, tolerance and all that. That's how you win those things. Seems to be a similar thing with this Kendrick Lamar, his Pulitzer Prize and "the board’s recognition of Lamar’s Zeitgeist-consistent insurgency" ... just the usual circus that doesn't necessarily have to do something with music.


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## gregh (Apr 18, 2018)

Rctec said:


> I couldn’t be any less from America! ...just because I live here. I grew up on a solid diet of Mozart, Beethoven, Stravinsky, Can and Kraftwerk... And the usual writers in Goethe, Schiller, Thomas Mann, Kafka, Karl Kraus ...


so what is it that Lamar is doing that is interesting - musically it sounds fairly mainstream, there is a bit of a soci-political critique through adoption of the persona of the oppressive other, but people have been doing that for decades. Is it more timing within a particular social moment?


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## iobaaboi (Apr 18, 2018)

Do you like or better understand any other artists or eras of hip-hop or rap? 

While I do think Kendrick is more universal than most because of the quality and message of his work, he’s still part of a genre a lot of people are uncomfortable with. 

I find this similar to not being surprised when someone who doesn’t listen to jazz expresses a sentiment akin to yours upon first hearing Miles Davis or Coltrane.


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## prodigalson (Apr 18, 2018)

gregh said:


> I was talking about Lamar - but was neither saying that hip-hop nor literature expresses local rather than general concerns. I was saying a lot of literature does. Probably literature was the wrong term - "writing" would be a better term for what I mean



I'm still not clear but I think you're saying that a lot of the subject matter of his writing expresses local rather than global concerns but I don't think the scope of a work's thematic content necessarily has anything to do with it's artistic merit OR whether or not people from other localities can find value in the work. 

I've never been to the Danube but I appreciate Strauss's waltz


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## gregh (Apr 18, 2018)

iobaaboi said:


> Do you like or better understand any other artists or eras of hip-hop or rap?


yes I do - but I am not hating on Lamar or him getting a prize - I couldnt care less about Pulitzers or Academy awards or any of the prizes the US offers. I am more interested in the phenomena, which does seem to me to be local. In the same way I would not expect people to get Australian hip-hop in the same way an Australian would


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## Robo Rivard (Apr 18, 2018)

I don't hate hip-hop because it musically sucks, I hate it because I hate the "victim culture".
In an overpopulated world, I think wannabe victims should have their wishes granted.


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## Daniel James (Apr 18, 2018)

I think there might be a cultural divide between the US and Europe when it comes to artists like this.

UK culture is usually pretty reserved and US culture is very bravado based. If a brit was banging on about how much money he made or how 'good that pussy tastes' every single person I have ever known would be lining up to take him down a peg.

Musically not my taste but it seems well enough produced. Lyrically I tire of being told how many or how much money/pussy/cars a rapper has. I think rap has an incredible ability to tell stories and challenge listeners. With this guy it feels like he is more concerned with how much money he has. Saying that though I would 100% listen to a rap album of any artist who had all the money in the world and lost it all. THAT is a story worth telling.

-DJ


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## ChristopherDoucet (Apr 18, 2018)

I have watched this video 500 times.

EDIT: 501 Just had to watch it again.

Oh sorry, EXPLICIT CONTENT. But when he kicks in is where I become entranced and from 1:42 on....intense.


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## gregh (Apr 18, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> I'm still not clear but I think you're saying that a lot of the subject matter of his writing expresses local rather than global concerns but I don't think the scope of a work's thematic content necessarily has anything to do with it's artistic merit OR whether or not people from other localities can find value in the work.
> 
> I've never been to the Danube but I appreciate Strauss's waltz



no you are not understanding me - often work with quite personal and local focus generalises out to a broader audience than the local. In many ways the great artists are defined by that ability to generalise across different populations - include time in there as well


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## Polkasound (Apr 18, 2018)

gregh said:


> that's just incredibly uninteresting to me - must just be a US thing



It's incredibly uninteresting to me, too, but that whole genre of music is not targeted to me. As a musician, I can appreciate the talent in the production, but as a middle-aged, middle-class white guy, I can't connect with it anymore than Kendrick Lamar can connect with Bohemian polka music from the 1800's.


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## gregh (Apr 18, 2018)

heisenberg said:


> I was being sarcastic and it didn't come through in my post, so I made a small edit to my post.
> 
> Here is a link to a LA Times article that will put some balance in the opinions on this award to Lamar...
> 
> ...



apologies - I agree.


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## gregh (Apr 18, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> It's incredibly uninteresting to me, too, but that whole genre of music is not targeted to me. As a musician, I can appreciate the talent in the production, but as a middle-aged, middle-class white guy, I can't connect with it anymore than Kendrick Lamar can connect with Bohemian polka music from the 1800's.


again, that speaks to me of the local nature of his work and importance


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## sean8877 (Apr 18, 2018)

ChristopherDoucet said:


> I have watched this video 500 times.
> 
> EDIT: 501 Just had to watch it again.
> 
> Oh sorry, EXPLICIT CONTENT. But when he kicks in is where I become entranced and from 1:42 on....intense.



I was going to say that he uses some really good musician's on his albums including some jazz guys like Thundercat and Kamasi Washington. I'm not really interested in the raps but I like some of the backing tracks where he uses top notch musicians.


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## gregh (Apr 18, 2018)

ChristopherDoucet said:


> I have watched this video 500 times.
> 
> EDIT: 501 Just had to watch it again.
> 
> Oh sorry, EXPLICIT CONTENT. But when he kicks in is where I become entranced and from 1:42 on....intense.




that's a lot more interesting to me


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 18, 2018)

Congratulations to Kendrick Lamar.


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## Daniel James (Apr 18, 2018)

gregh said:


> that's a lot more interesting to me



Musically this one is great. I actually like the flow of the rap too. But again, clearly not aimed at me. I personally have no interest in the market value of his penis.

-DJ


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## ChristopherDoucet (Apr 18, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> I think there might be a cultural divide between the US and Europe when it comes to artists like this.
> 
> UK culture is usually pretty reserved and US culture is very bravado based. If a brit was banging on about how much money he made or how 'good that pussy tastes' every single person I have ever known would be lining up to take him down a peg.
> 
> ...


I actually think "Humble" is expressing the exact sentiment you are.

"Sit Down, Be Humble". At least I interpreted it that way.

Like he's commenting on that attitude and perception, while simultaneously exploiting those tropes and images he's talking about.

I could be way off, but I often find that his lyrics are cleverly "masked in style".


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## halfwalk (Apr 18, 2018)

sit down
(Hol' up lil' bitch, hol' up lil' bitch) be humble
(Hol' up, bitch) sit down
(Sit down, hol' up, lil' bitch)
Be humble (bitch)
(Hol' up, hol' up, hol' up, hol' up) bitch, sit down
Lil' bitch (hol' up, lil' bitch) be humble
(Hol' up, bitch) sit down
(Hol' up, hol' up, hol' up, hol' up) be humble
(Hol' up, hol' up, hol' up, hol' up, lil' bitch) sit down
(Hol' up lil' bitch) be humble
(Hol' up, bitch) sit down
(Hol' up, sit down, lil' bitch)
(Sit down, lil' bitch, be humble)
(Hol' up, hol' up, hol' up, hol' up, lil' bitch) bitch, sit down
(Hol' up, bitch) be humble
(Hol' up, bitch) sit down
(Hol' up, hol' up, hol' up, hol' up)​

Truly a golden age of poetry we've reached, eh?


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 18, 2018)

Hip hop production peaked 30 years ago with Hank Schocklee, Tribe and The Dust Brothers. The last new thing that really turned my head was the first run of wutang/solo albums and the early DJ Shadow and El-P stuff. I think that’s why people like KL are turning to jazz players to sound different.


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## gregh (Apr 18, 2018)

ChristopherDoucet said:


> I actually think "Humble" is expressing the exact sentiment you are.
> 
> "Sit Down, Be Humble". At least I interpreted it that way.
> 
> ...



for sure - I think he is doing that a lot - adopting the persona of the oppressor to reveal oppression. That's a common (and normally effective) form. I this video AB Original invert roles in the video whilst contrasting with the lyrics (Australia Day is an abomination that celebrates the invasion and colonisation of Australia - I would not expect anyone from the US to get this song in the same way an Australian would - although First Nations people in the US might)


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## halfwalk (Apr 18, 2018)

ChristopherDoucet said:


> Ok this is interesting. I think there is a lot of trickery going on here. If you listen to the song without the visual, it becomes clear to me at least, that he is never once really referencing his penis. For me, he is talking about something much darker and much deeper with roots in slavery, exploitation and America's relationship in it. I think this song is once again a social commentary.
> 
> But....when married up against the images of him running around opening his robe, I think it makes the metaphor feel much more literal. Especially the beginning, with the lady. It frames your mind to think he's talking about his penis. But I don't think he is.



Yes and we can also say "Hit Me Baby One More Time" is a dig against domestic violence laden in veiled irony ("Show me how you want it to be") or that Roxanne is about convincing a friend that she doesn't need to risk her life doing roadside work for the department of transportation, walking the streets for money, putting up red lights. This is the beauty of art, I suppose; it means something different to everybody. Even if the artist never intended that meaning.


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## prodigalson (Apr 18, 2018)

gregh said:


> no you are not understanding me - often work with quite personal and local focus generalises out to a broader audience than the local. In many ways the great artists are defined by that ability to generalise across different populations - include time in there as well



And the subtext of that is an assumption that his work doesn't generalize out to a broader audience.


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## gregh (Apr 18, 2018)

Indigenous Australian rap and hip hop often has a call to integrative culture and universality. Baker Boy is a good example of this with the claim that we are all "Standing on everyone’s shoulders" ie all reliant on each other. Baker Boy is Yolngu from Milingimbi in East Arnhem Land - population a bit over 1000.


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## gregh (Apr 18, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> And the subtext of that is an assumption that his work doesn't generalize out to a broader audience.


doesn't for me at all - but my main concern was really to see if I was missing something important here ie Lamar is an artist that I am overlooking but if I dig deeper I will find he is someone with a great deal of value to me. I dont think I am missing anything. I'm not saying others cant love his work - why would I say that?


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## prodigalson (Apr 18, 2018)

gregh said:


> I'm not saying others cant love his work - why would I say that?



"that's just incredibly uninteresting to me - must just be a US thing"


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## iobaaboi (Apr 18, 2018)

halfwalk said:


> sit down
> (Hol' up lil' bitch, hol' up lil' bitch) be humble
> (Hol' up, bitch) sit down
> (Sit down, hol' up, lil' bitch)
> ...



I love when folks condescendingly post a chorus out of context. 

You want to talk about Kendrick, poeticism and creativity? Read this:

“
Alls my life I has to fight, n***a
Alls my life I
Hard times like God
Bad trips like "God!"
Nazareth, I'm f****d up, homie, you f****d up
But if God got us we then gon' be alright
N***a, we gon' be alright
N***a, we gon' be alright
We gon' be alright
Do you hear me, do you feel me, we gon' be alright
N***a, we gon' be alright
Huh, we gon' be alright
N***a, we gon' be alright
Do you hear me, do you feel me, we gon' be alright
Uh, and when I wake up
I recognize you're lookin' at me for the pay cut
Behind my side we lookin' at you from the face down
What Mac-11 even boom with the bass down
Schemin' and let me tell you bout my life
Painkillers only put me in the twilight
What pretty p***y and Benjamin is the highlight
Now tell my mama I love her but this what I like
Lord knows, twenty of 'em in my Chevy
Tell 'em all to come and get me, reapin' everything I sow
So my karma come and Heaven no preliminary hearing
So my record and my motherf*****g gang stand in silence for the record, uh
Tell the world I know it's too late
Boys and girls, I think I gone cray
Try and decide my vices all day
Won't you please believe when I say
When you know, we been hurt, been down before, n***a
When my pride was low, lookin' at the world like, where do we go, n***a?
And we hate Popo, wanna kill us dead in the street for sure, n***a
I'm at the preacher's door
My knees gettin' weak and my gun might blow but we gon' be alright
N***a, we gon' be alright
N***a, we gon' be alright
We gon' be alright
Do you hear me, do you feel me, we gon' be alright
N***a, we gon' be alright
Huh, we gon' be alright
N***a, we gon' be alright
Do you hear me, do you feel me, we gon' be alright
What you want, your house, your car
Forty acres and a mule, a piano, a guitar?
Anything, see my name is Lucy, I'm your dog
Motherf****r you can live at the mall
I can see the evil, I can tell it, I know when it's illegal
I don't think about it, I deposit every other zero
Thinkin' of my partner put the candy, paint it on the regal
Diggin' in my pocket ain't a profit, big enough to feed you
Everyday my logic, get another dollar just to keep you
In the presence of your chico, ah
I don't talk about it, be about it, everyday I see cool
If I got it then you know you got it, Heaven, I can reach you
Pet dog, pet dog, pet dog, my dog that's all
Pick back and chat I shut the back for y'all
I rap, I'm black, on track so rest assured
My rights, my wrongs are right till I'm right with God
When you know, we been hurt, been down before, n***a
When my pride was low, lookin' at the world like, where do we go, n***a?
And we hate Popo, wanna kill us dead in the street for sure, n***a
I'm at the preacher's door
My knees gettin' weak and my gun might blow but we gon' be alright
N***a, we gon' be alright
N***a, we gon' be alright
We gon' be alright
Do you hear me, do you feel me, we gon' be alright
N***a, we gon' be alright
Huh, we gon' be alright
N***a, we gon' be alright
Do you hear me, do you feel me, we gon' be alright
I keep my head up high
I cross my heart and hope to die
Lovin' me is complicated
Too afraid, a lot of changes
I'm alright and you're a favorite
Dark nights in my prayers
“

Watch this:



...and then we can talk. 

Kendrick is relevant, driven and brilliant. I don’t have to belong so some specific demographic to see that (same goes for @Rctec, apparently). If you don’t feel the same, that’s alright, just don’t come after the merits of art you don’t understand.


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## tonaliszt (Apr 18, 2018)

It says something about the state of classical music, doesn't it?


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Apr 18, 2018)

This one is heading for the drama forum..I can see it now.


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## gregh (Apr 18, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> "that's just incredibly uninteresting to me - must just be a US thing"


yeah we've got a language problem here, Im saying I dont get it because I dont have the cultural background and your saying that means I'm saying other people cant love his work. I dont understand that inference you are making at all


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## iobaaboi (Apr 18, 2018)

Gregh, I think some people get a little riled up by the language used, not really the sentiment. “what is the fuss about?” and “utterly banal”, for instance.

With your original post, were you really trying to gain a further understanding of why Kendrick and his music resonates with so many? Or were you just looking for people to agree with you?


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Apr 18, 2018)

iobaaboi said:


> I love when folks condescendingly post a chorus out of context.


Out of context? Surely if anything a chorus should tell you everything you need to know about a track


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## gregh (Apr 18, 2018)

iobaaboi said:


> Gregh, I think some people get a little riled up by the language used, not really the sentiment. “What’s all the fuss about?” For instance.
> 
> With your original post, were you really trying to gain a further understanding of why Kendrick and his music resonates with so many? Or were you just looking for people to agree with you?


I was looking for people to say why he was so great and also for people to say why he wasnt. I dont really use musical preference as a way to assert identity ie I dont care at all if people like or dont like the music I do or dont like.


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## iobaaboi (Apr 18, 2018)

gregh said:


> I was looking for people to say why he was so great and also for people to say why he wasnt. I dont really use musical preference as a way to assert identity ie I dont care at all if people like or dont like the music I do or dont like.



I totally agree with your last statement. In fact, I think most of us here have very passionate opinions about music most people don’t really care about (film music).

I just think when you come from a stance of attack (does it get more insulting than banal for an artist?) rather than a place of genuine inquiry, you are bound to get some overstated responses.

I would encourage you to listen to “To Pimp a Butterfly” in its entirety if you do really want to try to understand Kendrick. I liked “m.A.A.d. city” decent enough but “To Pimp..” really changed things for me. It’s heavily jazz-oriented and you might be able to get into it more. I think I wouldn’t have enjoyed “Damn” nearly as much had “To Pimp..” not come before it.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Apr 18, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> I can't connect with it anymore than Kendrick Lamar can connect with Bohemian polka music from the 1800's.



I wouldn't be so quick to assume Kendrick doesn't enjoy 19th century Bohemian polka.


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 18, 2018)

gregh said:


> Even the use of the term "Americans" is quite revealing of the often noted US assumption of their cultural universality



Er...everyone else calls us Americans and then they miffed when we call ourselves Americans (bc they think we forgot about other countries in The Americas). So, what are we then, United States of Americans? Bc I like that better.


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## KEM (Apr 18, 2018)

Personally, I think awards are completely useless, they don’t mean anything, it’s all just to fuel the ego, so this really shouldn’t be a big deal because it won’t change anything.

Kendrick is a good artist, but in my opinion DAMN. was a very boring album, I don’t think it’s a very artistic or groundbreaking record, it’s just normal hip hop to me. If you want to hear an album that actually is artistic and groundbreaking, listen to Yeezus by Kanye West, that’s a record that deserves critical acclaim, there’s truly nothing like it and it’s a creative landmark in the genre.

But of course real art doesn’t ever get recognized by these “award” ceremonies...


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## Robo Rivard (Apr 18, 2018)

The only Awards that I dig, are the Darwin Awards. They keep me alive. They give me hope for a better future.


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## prodigalson (Apr 18, 2018)

gregh said:


> yeah we've got a language problem here, Im saying I dont get it because I dont have the cultural background and your saying that means I'm saying other people cant love his work. I dont understand that inference you are making at all



And I'm saying it's ridiculous, in 2018, to imagine that a response to popular music must just be due to cultural (geographically speaking) backgrounds. Here is an article written in The Guardian (a UK media outlet) about a recent Kendrick Lamar concert in Dublin where apparently fans were so excited about him coming they painted a mural of him on a wall in the city. Now, you may not like or get it but I'm saying that it's not about cultural background or local vs. global scope of the the subject matter.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/feb/08/kendrick-lamar-review-dublin


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 18, 2018)

Awards like these are, and have always been, political posing made up by some puffed up, blasé bigheads. Someone decided that it would be a good sociopolitical signal or whatever, according to whatever agenda, to give the Pulitzer Award to a rapper. This Lamar guy seems to be receiving the push and nods the most so they picked him. Whatever. That doesn't have anything to do with music.


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## yhomas (Apr 18, 2018)

gregh said:


> I am not from the US so don't understand a lot of the cultural aspects of that country - the current puzzler for me is Kendrik Lamar. I have seen a bunch of stuff about him winnng a Pulitzer which I understand is fairly prestigious. Why did he win? I have had a look at a few of his videos today, read some stuff about his lyrics and saw some of his videos a while back when my kids mentioned him. Seems utterly banal to me - awful vocals in the way I find most rap vocals awful and fairly mainstream underlying music. Am I missing something here that crosses cultural boundaries or is his fame more of a local and topical nature?



I have lived in the USA my entire life, and I have never heard of Mr. Lamar until this thread. Judging by the two videos I just skimmed, I wasn’t missing anything. 

IMO, there exists some great rap music out there, but most is worthless at best.


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## prodigalson (Apr 18, 2018)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Out of context? Surely if anything a chorus should tell you everything you need to know about a track



I'm not sure it would be fair to judge Stevie Wonder by "I Just Called To Say I Love You"


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## mc_deli (Apr 18, 2018)

iobaaboi said:


> I love when folks condescendingly post a chorus out of context.
> 
> You want to talk about Kendrick, poeticism and creativity? Read this:
> 
> ...



Did you just post different lyrics in response, without addressing the misogyny?

I love Kendrick. No doubt. I can also make a long list of MOBO artists/lyricists from both sides of the pond that I think might as/more deserving of this award.
I also liked the previous album a lot more. Pimp is an all time great album IMHO.

However, I firmly believe that as musicians (and a music industry) we all have a responsibility to address disgusting misogynist content, wherever and whenever it arises.
Cultural context, irony, intertextuality... these are not valid excuses. My world has moved on. There is just no need to bitch and ho in music. There is no cultural imperative. You can live without it. It's disgusting. Cut it out. For that reason I don't think KL's lyrical content is worthy of this award.

Obviously, the debate about Humble is very important here. For me, the challenge for lyricists is to address misogyny with respect without being duplicitous.

bitch, don't kill my vibe... bitch I did that... all the girls wanna play Baywatch...

This is blatant for me. The ideas in Humble are debatable and fascinating - especially what meaning is in the video versus the song... but yeah, overall, I'm bored with my favourite artists using misogyny negatively to sell records and market themselves. Time's up, as someone said


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## Daniel James (Apr 18, 2018)

iobaaboi said:


> I love when folks condescendingly post a chorus out of context.
> 
> You want to talk about Kendrick, poeticism and creativity? Read this:
> 
> ...




This one I like more! I don't search out much in the way of hip hop these days so I love being exposed to something new and interesting. Its easy to get wrapped up in your own world sometimes you forget to look outside and take in everything on offer!

Still not a huge fan of the 'look how rich I am' or 'all dat pussy' type ones I have seen of his. But I can appreciate great work when I see it, like this one. Even if I am not a fan of everything else he does, it takes nothing away from those of his which are great.

-DJ


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## gregh (Apr 18, 2018)

here's Briggs on the social construction of disadvantage and anger - see how he humanises the subject as a counterpart to justified anger . There is a notion of caring and community here - and is thematic throughout Indigenous art (plus shitloads of humour) But he aint treating Indigenous women as bitches and hos he isnt calling for violence or big noting himself. He is much better than that


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## KEM (Apr 19, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> This one I like more! I don't search out much in the way of hip hop these days so I love being exposed to something new and interesting. Its easy to get wrapped up in your own world sometimes you forget to look outside and take in everything on offer!
> 
> Still not a huge fan of the 'look how rich I am' or 'all dat pussy' type ones I have seen of his. But I can appreciate great work when I see it, like this one. Even if I am not a fan of everything else he does, it takes nothing away from those of his which are great.
> 
> -DJ



Listen to Yeezus then, from start to finish. 45 minutes of pure artistic expression and creativity.


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## paularthur (Apr 19, 2018)

The best way i can explain it as a person who grew up in a big city in the U.S. who grew up around a lot of hip-hop artists is = Kendrick is one of the only hip-hop MCs of the modern era who is able to articulate the struggles and temptations of an inner city youth's lifestyle having lived it but not feeding in to the negativity or the stereotypes associated with it. ..and then delivering it to a wider audience in a digestible format with a unique take (sound+voice+worldplay). He's not the guy constantly talking about selling drugs, drinking alcohol, making money... While he does dabble in the big persona a bit; he presents more of a raw social critique from a birds eye view (a lot of the reference points are [unfortunately] uniquely American) and it's very metaphorical.

I've played his music in top40 500-1000+ venues and you'll see the people who are the complete opposite of him go on word-for-word with it. I'm not trying to appeal to you why you should like it but it's one of the best ways to understand what a lot of kids over here had/have to go through, especially on the other side of Los Angeles. Anyway; hope that helps.

***"To Pimp A Butterfly" is a great place to start if you Jazz & Soul influenced music, Thundercat is on a bunch of his records.

Former President Obama's favorite rap lyrics -

How much a dollar really cost?
The question is detrimental, paralyzin' my thoughts
Parasites in my stomach keep me with a gut feeling, y'all
Gotta see how I’m chillin' once I park this luxury car
Hopping out feeling big as Mutombo
20 on pump six dirty Marcellus called me Dumbo
20 years ago, can't forget
Now I can lend 'em a ear or two how to stack these residuals
Tenfold, the liberal concept of what men'll do
20 on 6, he didn't hear me
Indigenous African only spoke Zulu
My American tongue was slurry
Walked out the gas station
A homeless man with a silly tan complexion
Asked me for ten grand
Stressin' about dry land
Deep water, powder blue skies that crack open
A piece of crack that he wanted, I knew he was smokin'
He begged and pleaded
Asked me to feed him twice, I didn't believe it
Told him, "Beat it"
Contributin' money just for his pipe, I couldn't see it
He said, "My son, temptation is one thing that I've defeated
Listen to me, I want a single bill from you
Nothin' less, nothin' more
I told him I ain't have it and closed my door
Tell me how much a dollar cost
It's more to feed your mind
Water, sun and love, the one you love
All you need, the air you breathe
He's starin' at me in disbelief
My temper is buildin', he's starin' at me, I grab my key
He's starin' at me, I started the car and tried to leave
And somethin' told me to keep it in park until I could see
A reason why he was mad at a stranger like I was supposed to save him
Like I'm the reason he's homeless and askin' me for a favor
He's starin' at me, his eyes followed me with no laser
He's starin' at me, I notice that his stare is contagious
Cause now I'm starin' back at him, feelin' some type of disrespect
If I could throw a bat at him, it'd be aimin' at his neck
I never understood someone beggin' for goods
Askin' for handouts, takin' it if they could
And this particular person just had it down pat
Starin' at me for the longest until he finally asked
Have you ever opened to Exodus 14?
A humble man is all that we ever need
Tell me how much a dollar cost
It's more to feed your mind
Water, sun and love, the one you love
All you need, the air you breathe
Guilt trippin' and feelin' resentment
I never met a transient that demanded attention
They got me frustrated, indecisive and power trippin'
Sour emotions got me lookin' at the universe different
I should distance myself, I should keep it relentless
My selfishness is what got me here, who the fuck I'm kiddin'?
So I'ma tell you like I told the last bum, crumbs and pennies
I need all of mines, and I recognize this type of panhandlin' all the time
I got better judgement, I know when nigga's hustlin'
Keep in mind, when I was strugglin', I did compromise
Now I comprehend, I smell grandpa's old medicine
Reekin' from your skin, moonshine and gin
Nigga your babblin', your words ain't flatterin', I'm imaginin'
Denzel be lookin' at O'Neal
Cause now I'm in sad thrills, your gimmick is mediocre, the jig is up
I seen you from a mile away losin' focus
And I'm insensitive, and I lack empathy
You looked at me and said, "Your potential is bittersweet"
I looked at him and said, "Every nickel is mines to keep"
He looked at me and said, "Know the truth, it'll set you free
You're lookin' at the Messiah, the son of Jehova, the higher power
The choir that spoke the word, the Holy Spirit, the nerve
Of Nazareth, and I'll tell you just how much a dollar cost
The price of having a spot in Heaven, embrace your loss, I am God"
I wash my hands, I said my grace, what more do you want from me?
Tears of a clown, guess I'm not all what is meant to be
Shades of grey will never change if I condone
Turn this page, help me change, so right my wrongs


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## gregh (Apr 19, 2018)

paularthur said:


> The best way i can explain it as a person who grew up in a big city in the U.S. who grew up around a lot of hip-hop artists is = Kendrick is one of the only hip-hop MCs of the modern era who is able to articulate the struggles and temptations of an inner city youth's lifestyle having lived it but not feeding in to the negativity or the stereotypes associated with it. ..and then delivering it to a wider audience in a digestible format with a unique take (sound+voice+worldplay). He's not the guy constantly talking about selling drugs, drinking alcohol, making money... While he does dabble in the big persona a bit; he presents more of a raw social critique from a birds eye view (a lot of the reference points are [unfortunately] uniquely American) and it's very metaphorical.
> 
> I've played his music in top40 500-1000+ venues and you'll see the people who are the complete opposite of him go on word-for-word with it. I'm not trying to appeal to you why you should like it but it's one of the best ways to understand what a lot of kids over here had/have to go through, especially on the other side of Los Angeles. Anyway; hope that helps.
> 
> ...



Hey buddy, won't you sell me a dime


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 19, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> I think there might be a cultural divide between the US and Europe when it comes to artists like this.
> 
> UK culture is usually pretty reserved and US culture is very bravado based. If a brit was banging on about how much money he made or how 'good that pussy tastes' every single person I have ever known would be lining up to take him down a peg.



That’s why you have the Sleaford Mods..



Plenty of areas in the NE US where this is the case as well.


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## Daniel James (Apr 19, 2018)

givemenoughrope said:


> That’s why you have the Sleaford Mods..
> 
> 
> 
> Plenty of areas in the NE US where this is the case as well.




Mate, I fucking love that! I went down a little rabbit hole of them. He is like a working class poet!

Thanks for sharing it.

-DJ


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## gregh (Apr 19, 2018)

givemenoughrope said:


> That’s why you have the Sleaford Mods..
> 
> 
> 
> Plenty of areas in the NE US where this is the case as well.




great stuff, makes me think English? oh Yeah that's what the English invented

- brings to mind the wonder of


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 19, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Mate, I fucking love that! I went down a little rabbit hole of them. He is like a working class poet!
> 
> Thanks for sharing it.
> 
> -DJ



I can barely understand a facking word but I get the sentiment. Love these dudes. Like a cross between Mclusky and John Cooper Clarke.


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 19, 2018)

gregh said:


> great stuff, makes me think English? oh Yeah that's what the English invented
> 
> - brings to mind the wonder of




Speaking of the devil!!! He just played LA but I missed it :(


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## gregh (Apr 19, 2018)

givemenoughrope said:


> I can barely understand a facking word but I get the sentiment. Love these dudes. Like a cross between Mclusky and John Cooper Clarke.


McLusky - "My love is bigger than your love" about as good a line as you get


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## gregh (Apr 19, 2018)

givemenoughrope said:


> Speaking of the devil!!! He just played LA but I missed it :(


bummer


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 19, 2018)

gregh said:


> McLusky - "My love is bigger than your love" about as good a line as you get



They take more drugs than a touring funk band.


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## fretti (Apr 19, 2018)

And then we have the "special needs" country of Germany rewarding two rappers with antisemitism lyrics with an Echo or the "most prestigious" music award my country has to offer...
Always thought the pulitzer price was *only* for journalism; already learned something new today


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## Lupez (Apr 19, 2018)

Ugly music for ugly times...


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## Robo Rivard (Apr 19, 2018)

Pulitzer is about Jews...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maus


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 19, 2018)

Not a fan of the lyrical content.
Musically it's a bit unorthodox, and unique.
If I could just get the music without the lyrics, I think it would be pretty cool.


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## Phillip (Apr 19, 2018)

Bob Dylan won Nobel prize fo literTure in 2017. Say what???? I guess it is new "cultural fad".


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## fretti (Apr 19, 2018)

Phillip said:


> Bob Dylan won Nobel prize fo literTure in 2017. Say what???? I guess it is new "cultural fad".


2016 it was I think. But I have a whole shelf only for Bob Dylans books right next to me


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## Richard Wilkinson (Apr 19, 2018)

There is some awful, awful hip hop around. Pretty much all identikit trap music for example, but Kendrick Lamar is brilliant, as a writer and a performer. Listen _to To Pimp A Butterfly_ as a good 'in'.


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## Kas (Apr 19, 2018)

I have the exact same thoughts with the OP about Lammar. Hip hop is not my thing but jazz is and I listened carefully "To Pimp a Butterfly" but no enjoyment. Someone mentioned Conchita as a European analogue but she's not widely accepted as the next big thing of universal acclaim, just another pop singer. Rym ratings of Lamar and up there with Coltrane, Miles Davis, Pink Floyd and Beatles and as the OP mentioned I was hoping for people to explain why Lammar is so great and what do we miss.


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## Phillip (Apr 19, 2018)

You don't miss anything. Trust your taste and your instincts. It is all subject to personal taste. That's the beauty of art, it cannot be measured like sport.


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## paularthur (Apr 19, 2018)

I'll simplify my previous post = it's the storytelling. People just like the way he paints the picture.


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## fretti (Apr 19, 2018)

Kas said:


> I have the exact same thoughts with the OP about Lammar. Hip hop is not my thing but jazz is and I listened carefully "To Pimp a Butterfly" but no enjoyment. Someone mentioned Conchita as a European analogue but she's not widely accepted as the next big thing of universal acclaim, just another pop singer. Rym ratings of Lamar and up there with Coltrane, Miles Davis, Pink Floyd and Beatles and as the OP mentioned I was hoping for people to explain why Lammar is so great and what do we miss.


Hard to say, as I don't *"*like*"* his music either...but I often don't "like" movies that get an oscar nor do I sometimes know/understand why one specific person/team gets a nobel price...(though it isn't me sitting in the jury so I can't change that)
Why one specific journalist or musician gets that price is beyond me, there are other artists, movies, physicists, chemists, economists, doctors or whatever who deserve a price just like the one who got it (at least most of the times)...
But I don't get why people love certain painters either (sometimes I just stand before a piece of them and just shake my head tbh)...
Haven't read the whole article Hans' has posted earlier, but I guess "the cultural and political forces" here were quite "strong" in the decision...


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## Richard Wilkinson (Apr 19, 2018)

Kas said:


> Hip hop is not my thing but jazz is and I listened carefully "To Pimp a Butterfly" but no enjoyment.



Well there you go - you're listening in a jazz context. Kendrick Lamar is not a Jazz musician making Jazz music. He's a hip-hop artist making culturally significant and musically & lyrically exceptional hip-hop.


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## fretti (Apr 19, 2018)

Richard Wilkinson said:


> Well there you go - you're listening in a jazz context. Kendrick Lamar is not a Jazz musician making Jazz music. He's a hip-hop artist making culturally significant and musically & lyrically exceptional hip-hop.


"Who dat nigga thinkin' that he frontin' on man, man? (Man, man)
Get the fuck off my stage, I'm the Sandman (Sandman)
Get the fuck off my dick, that ain't right
I make a play fuckin' up your whole life"
It's certainly art yes, culturally significant (can't state it is nor that it isn't; no American maybe it is beyond me?); lyrically exceptional (arguably; for me Eminem is lyrically exceptional, but no native speaker so maybe I just don't "see it")
Has it really stamped (?) American culture and society so much that it is "worth" a pulitzer? (seriously asking here as it is a little cryptical for me)


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## paularthur (Apr 19, 2018)

fretti said:


> "Who dat nigga thinkin' that he frontin' on man, man? (Man, man)
> Get the fuck off my stage, I'm the Sandman (Sandman)
> Get the fuck off my dick, that ain't right
> I make a play fuckin' up your whole life"
> ...



It really depends on how much time you spend on it = Hip-hop artists have to play the game, one for them one for me... He has aggressive confrontational songs with clubbier beats and he has story time (i bet you can guess which one makes the radio here).


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## n9n9n9 (Apr 19, 2018)

If you’re asking for a way to see what people are talking about when they praise kendrick lamar, do some research:

https://dissectpodcast.com/

this excellent podcast goes very deep on To Pimp.. and DAMN! and is an eye opener (if you have an open mind.)

Listen to his verse on Beyonce’s track “Freedom” too. And “King Kunta.”

As a white 45 year old man my opinion on him is worth just about nothing, but I’ve found him to be very much worth the work of repeat listening. The music isn’t intended for me and so I must go to it to find what it offers.... which is something that I love to do.

A lot of his stuff has music made with Flying Lotus and Kamasi Washington... both very much worth checking out on their own.

Without referent it sounds chaotic but he is deep and the stories he tells on DAMN! are deep. Get into it or don’t but don’t be lazy. That’s boring.


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## chimuelo (Apr 19, 2018)

I’ve been fortunate enough to hang in Compton when Dre first started touting KL.
I heard his freestyle and it’s much better than the tamed down commercial music.
Always had innovative keyboard parts, and he’s really brought the popularity of Electric Pianos back, really nice voicings too.

It’s one of the few times where an award outside of Journalistic concepts was necessary.
Hopefully more Pulitzer’s can go to artists, especially if they can bring people together.

FWIW he gives hope to millions, my son being one of them.
I was bragging about this guy when he was a kid here years ago, and I’m glad I still have an eye and ear for talent and beauty.

I said 20 years ago when I saw Heidi Klums smile in those cheesy Newport News Stepford Wives fashion junk mail mags she’d be America’s #1 someday.

So yuze guys should never distrust the opinions of Chimuelo.


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## fretti (Apr 19, 2018)

chimuelo said:


> I’ve been fortunate enough to hang in Compton when Dre first started touting KL.
> I heard his freestyle and it’s much better than the tamed down commercial music.
> Always had innovative keyboard parts, and he’s really brought the popularity of Electric Pianos back, really nice voicings too.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your lengthy answer. As I (and I think many others here) don‘t live in the US it‘s mostly not so easy to see the importance of such an Artist for a country and it’s people (unless you read multiple articles about this topic); besides one „understanding“ his music or not...
Glad you see Heidi Klum as America’s #1 as she is quite controversial in Germany (for anyone questioning, yes she is german; and many Germans can‘t stand her)


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## JohnG (Apr 19, 2018)

I hope the award gets more people to listen outside the silos we have ended up in. Too many people are getting their information from social media which, as we know, is specifically and deliberately echoing what one already knows about and agrees with.

When I see the curriculum that appears predominant in the US high schools it appears to me that black and brown and Asian people are discussed _only if_, and _only to the extent that_ they interact with European, and white European-origin people. There are many millions of people in the US that are conscious of a completely separate narrative, something that Lamar alludes to over and over (40 acres and a mule being an example).

An award is validation. If anointing Lamar's music / poetry / performance with an establishment prize gets more to listen and hear about a different life experience I think that's good.


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## patrick76 (Apr 19, 2018)

I have nothing against Kendrik Lamar and am a fan of Thundercat for sure, but I don't agree with giving him the Pulitzer. The award has historically gone to classical or jazz composers and I just don't see the reason to now exclude them to award it to something outside those genres. I mean it is not as if Kendrik Lamar is laboring away in obscurity and needs a Pulitzer to give him the exposure he deserves. And the $15k prize is surely not a big deal to him. However, almost all classical and jazz composers ARE laboring away in obscurity and $15k is probably quite significant to them. 

Like many people here, I really have a difficult time stomaching awards relating to the arts because it can be so subjective and influenced by hollow trends etc. So at the end of the day I suppose it doesn't matter too much, but..


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## chimuelo (Apr 19, 2018)

patrick76 said:


> I have nothing against Kendrik Lamar and am a fan of Thundercat for sure, but I don't agree with giving him the Pulitzer. The award has historically gone to classical or jazz composers and I just don't see the reason to now exclude them to award it to something outside those genres. I mean it is not as if Kendrik Lamar is laboring away in obscurity and needs a Pulitzer to give him the exposure he deserves. And the $15k prize is surely not a big deal to him. However, almost all classical and jazz composers ARE laboring away in obscurity and $15k is probably quite significant to them.
> 
> Like many people here, I really have a difficult time stomaching awards relating to the arts because it can be so subjective and influenced by hollow trends etc. So at the end of the day I suppose it doesn't matter too much, but..



KL will bring more people into the process, maybe get a raise for the Classical/Jazz artists.
As long as James Comey doesn’t get a Pulitzer for his fantastic romance novel the awards givers can keep up the good work.
I’m not keen on awards until they buck the trend.
Meritocracy needs a good kick in the ass sometimes.


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## Daniel James (Apr 19, 2018)

JohnG said:


> When I see the curriculum that appears predominant in the US high schools it appears to me that black and brown and Asian people are discussed _only if_, and _only to the extent that_ they interact with European, and white European-origin people.



Isn't that because of the heritage of the western system though? I mean Europeans are predominantly white historically speaking. And countries where europeans have settled seem to be the main locations where multiculturalism exists at all (which is why this problem only ever creeps up in relation to white europeans usually)....I mean in Asia or Africa I imagine the history of white Europeans is only ever mentioned with how they have interacted with the history of that nation (or ethnic group)...but they don't have enough of a white/european population for it to be an issue.

So in countries where it is historically and predominantly europeans it isn't much of a surprise that the education system is built upon a foundation of european history. We have progressive movements which are slowly but surly integrating more diverse cultural elements into our education system and it will be stronger because of it. But I don't think the US education/government systems are focusing on 'white people' first out of a racism (of course there are racist cunts out there) but systematically I think its taught that way because the US was colonised by Europeans...so the systems are built up around that foundation. I imagine if I went to a school in Ghana or Tokyo I wouldn't be learning about primarily European (or white in your example) history, but more how europeans have interacted with the African or Japanese people. Again I don't think its done maliciously....which your post feels like it was suggesting.

It is an interesting observation however. How some people are so far removed from the subject matter of certain music that they lack the ability to 'get it'. I mean I certainly relate more to the subject matter of the Sleaford Mods tracks than with Kendric Lamars. But that was the culture in which I was raised in. Moving to the US you can feel the racial tension is on another level, and in my time here I can slowly start to understand the subject matter from a more cultural perspective. So I don't fault people, particularly those far removed from the mixed US culture, if they don't relate to the music like this, I don't think it means they approaching it from a position of race preference but more a lack of cultural context.

I think multiculturalism is great for music, it exposes us to new ways of thinking and new ways of playing. But we need to remember not every country steps so far outside of their own culture (I learned that from my time living in Tokyo). Our stories are told from the wold as we know it. So if someone doesn't 'get' Kendrik Lamar I would put it down to many things before I arrived at his race. However race is one of the main cultural elements that the US is figuring out right now, so it makes sense for Americans (or those living in America) to understand the cultural context for his work more so than a European who hasn't spent enough time in the US to _feel _the difference of how multiculturalism is here compared to there.

Now I understand this is a difficult area of conversation to discuss but it is a fascinating situation to observe.

-DJ


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## fretti (Apr 19, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> It is an interesting observation however. How some people are so far removed from the subject matter of certain music that they lack the ability to 'get it'. I mean I certainly relate more to the subject matter of the Sleaford Mods tracks than with Kendric Lamars. But that was the culture in which I was raised in. Moving to the US you can feel the racial tension is on another level, and in my time here I can slowly start to understand the subject matter from a more cultural perspective. So I don't fault people, particularly those far removed from the mixed US culture, if they don't relate to the music like this, I don't think it means they approaching it from a position of race preference but more a lack of cultural context.


100% agree. I think one of the main "problems" there is imo that the US is (one of?) the biggest music producers in the world. And by that it is probably hard for them to understand how other countries who listen to that music see it from a completely different perspective. Even with research I can't really put many things into context (nor do I get various references).
I don't blame the US or their people though, it is such a huge country and has such huge influence on other countries and dominates many industries (especially film and music I'd say) worldwide.
On the other hand I would love to see some americans (or africans, asians...) to "react" to european music wich isn't in english. Even if one speaks the language, they would probably don't "get it". Same goes for me and KL (and many many other artists); I speak (obviously) english, had to do my "A-levels" in english (as one of 5 subjects), so I'd say I "understand" the texts from a language standpoint (at least 90%), but I certainly don't get them...


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## gregh (Apr 19, 2018)

fretti said:


> 100% agree. I think one of the main "problems" there is imo that the US is (one of?) the biggest music producers in the world. And by that it is probably hard for them to understand how other countries who listen to that music see it from a completely different perspective. Even with research I can't really put many things into context (nor do I get various references).
> I don't blame the US or their people though, it is such a huge country and has such huge influence on other countries and dominates many industries (especially film and music I'd say) worldwide.
> On the other hand I would love to see some americans (or africans, asians...) to "react" to european music wich isn't in english. Even if one speaks the language, they would probably don't "get it". Same goes for me and KL (and many many other artists); I speak (obviously) english, had to do my "A-levels" in english (as one of 5 subjects), so I'd say I "understand" the texts from a language standpoint (at least 90%), but I certainly don't get them...



the US dominates culturally through economic and political power. The film industry in India is much larger in terms of numbers of films produced and numbers seeing them - similarly for China and Nigeria. Not sure what the figures are for music, but I would imagine even more extreme.


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## Daniel James (Apr 19, 2018)

gregh said:


> the US dominates culturally through economic and political power. The film industry in India is much larger in terms of numbers of films produced and numbers seeing them - similarly for China and Nigeria. Not sure what the figures are for music, but I would imagine even more extreme.



Exactly. Using the logic I put forward it matches the conclusion that even though India's film industry is larger I 'like it' or 'get it' less because I don't culturally relate to the content, I don't have the correct cultural context for it to make sense in the same way it does for the people of India (unless its one of those mental bollywood action which just goes off the rails in the most majestically crazy ways that anyone can watch from a pure excited confusion perspective)

-DJ


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## tav.one (Apr 19, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> even though India's film industry is larger I 'like it' or 'get it' less because I don't culturally relate to the content, I don't have the correct cultural context for it to make sense in the same way it does for the people of India



I was born & raised here, I still don't get most of it.
I realize that I'm a misfit here and most do get/like it.

I love Kendrick any day over those Mumble ones.


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 19, 2018)

I thought what KL was putting out there was fairly universal and relatable in the very general sense. If he were just making music for the residents of South LA then I doubt kids in Dublin would have painted a mural of him. He’s obviously aware of the narrative surrounding and the old cliches of his corner of the music world.


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## fretti (Apr 19, 2018)

gregh said:


> the US dominates culturally through economic and political power. The film industry in India is much larger in terms of numbers of films produced and numbers seeing them - similarly for China and Nigeria. Not sure what the figures are for music, but I would imagine even more extreme.


Never seen a whole Bollywood movie; only the scenes @Daniel James mentioned. But in these scenes you see all the more how other countries react to such things (I find them entertaining, Indians might find them awesome and exciting); and why it is "hard"(er) for us non americans to understand the significance of KL. I always liked Dr Dre, Eminem, Jay Z .... Not so much for their deep lyrics or cultural critique or whatever but because I liked their sound, their rythm, their style of rapping, their beats or whatever there is to like about them.
Guess I will never fully understand how important this pulitzer price of KL is for a large part of the american population (especially the youth I guess). Actually wasn't really wondering until I stumbled upon this thread (was only a side note so far that KL has won that price...), all the more interesting though


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## chimuelo (Apr 19, 2018)

Kung Fu Yoga has some amazing babes in high resolution.
The Chinese and Indian gals are so hot I can’t remember if there was any music.

Competition spurs creativity.
Just look at what Bollywood, and Hong Kong have done.
I loved Bruce Lee and Ip Man type movies.
They were awful quality at first but now they have good music, hot babes and fantastic martial arts choreography.

Even NKorea had some quality films of the USA getting nuked.
Crappiest sampled Piano I ever heard though.


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## Daniel James (Apr 19, 2018)

givemenoughrope said:


> I thought what KL was putting out there was fairly universal and relatable in the very general sense. If he were just making music for the residents of South LA then I doubt kids in Dublin would have painted a mural of him. He’s obviously aware of the narrative surrounding and the old cliches of his corner of the music world.



Culture can absolutely translate (there would be no 'world music' section if it didn't) I am just saying you are more likely to understand that culture if you are born an raised in it. Like the example of Sleaford Mods posted around page 3. I bet most Americans don't quite understand what the fuck he is talking about but I know the _feeling_ behind the things he is saying. I have experienced them, I was raised in them. Now someone from the US could absolutely read into the lives of working class english people, pick up why someone from that background might feel a certain way towards a government or cultural system and then retroactively figure out what the Sleaford Mods rapper was saying after learning the cultural context.

Now the cultural context of Kendrik Lamars work is based in the cultures of african americans living in america and money (from the video examples here). I could absolutely (as can those in Dublin) look into why his lyrics are the way they are and give them context which would allow me to 'get it' (just a note you can get something but just not like it). But again I don't fault for people living in Europe to not understand or relate to it quite as strongly. Being a white Englishman I had never actually in a social setting been referred to by my skin colour until I moved to America. In America I am a 'white guy'....with all the pre decided baggage that comes with that, I all of a sudden got a taste of what it feels like to be told *what I am* because of the colour of my skin. It gave me an deeper contextual understanding of what rappers were talking about in their lyrics. America is a country that divides people down racial lines and it is strongly reflected in the music culturally. And that is what I mean by 'getting it' you have to feel what they are saying if you care about the deeper meaning and that only seems to happen when you have correct context. Empathising with it from an external perspective will never be the same as living it.

Of course people can just enjoy it as a piece of music, they can like the beat or just the way things flow without ever looking into the deeper meanings behind it. But I imagine KL won the pulitzer because he is tackling the deeper meaning behind the work he does.... so _in context_ it is an absolutely deserved accolade. But not everyone in the world who can't relate to the cultural context will understand why he won over someone they consider better.

-DJ


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## fretti (Apr 19, 2018)

chimuelo said:


> Even NKorea had some quality films of the USA getting nuked.
> Crappiest sampled Piano I ever heard though.


Always thought Marvel movies look like 90's computer games when compared to this high budget NKorean stuff


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 19, 2018)

One weird thing about this is that the prize usually goes to a composer, meaning one person who sat (or stood) in a room and wrote music and had it performed or performed it with others. This is a piece of popular music (or whatever you want to call it, you know, compared to a concert work) made by a team of people or teams of people many of whom may never have even met each other. Millions of dollars have gone into promoting it and the artist complete with big budget videos.To make things even weirder the Pultizer spokesman claims that this is the most innovative music made in 2017 and politics (ie Trump) have little to do with it. Ok. Everything in the western world down to which fast food I eat is now divided by political lines. Why pretend that it isn’t? 

I get why this album (and previous albums of his) are a big deal. Rap/hip hop is a fairly limited genre and for someone to make us hear it in a different way is no small feat. But the fact that it needs the budget and production of several Dark Side of the Moon’s impresses me a little less. Most of the music I treasure the most, be it rock, rap, jazz, a string quartet or Greek Rembetika, just sounds like what it is...several people in a room making music which then takes us to a completely different place.


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## Daniel James (Apr 19, 2018)

givemenoughrope said:


> One weird thing about this is that the prize usually goes to a composer, meaning one person who sat (or stood) in a room and wrote music and had it performed or performed it with others. This is a piece of popular music (or whatever you want to call it, you know, compared to a concert work) made by a team of people or teams of people many of whom may never have even met each other. Millions of dollars have gone into promoting it and the artist complete with big budget videos.To make things even weirder the Pultizer spokesman claims that this is the most innovative music made in 2017 and politics (ie Trump) have little to do with it. Ok. Everything in the western world down to which fast food I eat is now divided by political lines. Why pretend that it isn’t?
> 
> I get why this album (and previous albums of his) are a big deal. Rap/hip hop is a fairly limited genre and for someone to make us hear it in a different way is no small feat. But the fact that it needs the budget and production of several Dark Side of the Moon’s impresses me a little less. Most of the music I treasure the most, be it rock, rap, jazz, a string quartet or Greek Rembetika, just sounds like what it is...several people in a room making music which then takes us to a completely different place.



Just to be clear. You can understand it and still not like the thing.

I am not a huge Kendrik Lamar fan personally but I understand _why_ he won. And I also understand why some people _don't_.

-DJ


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## fretti (Apr 19, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Culture can absolutely translate (there would be no 'world music' section if it didn't) I am just saying you are more likely to understand that culture if you are born an raised in it. Like the example of Sleaford Mods posted around page 3. I bet most Americans don't quite understand what the fuck he is talking about but I know the _feeling_ behind the things he is saying. I have experienced them, I was raised in them. Now someone from the US could absolutely read into the lives of working class english people, pick up why someone from that background might feel a certain way towards a government or cultural system and then retroactively figure out what the Sleaford Mods rapper was saying after learning the cultural context.
> 
> Now the cultural context of Kendrik Lamars work is based in the cultures of african americans living in america and money (from the video examples here). I could absolutely (as can those in Dublin) look into why his lyrics are the way they are and give them context which would allow me to 'get it' (just a note you can get something but just not like it). But again I don't fault for people living in Europe to not understand or relate to it quite as strongly. Being a white Englishman I had never actually in a social setting been referred to by my skin colour until I moved to America. In America I am a 'white guy'....with all the pre decided baggage that comes with that, I all of a sudden got a taste of what it feels like to be told *what I am* because of the colour of my skin. It gave me an deeper contextual understanding of what rappers were talking about in their lyrics. America is a country that divides people down racial lines and it is strongly reflected in the music culturally. And that is what I mean by 'getting it' you have to feel what they are saying if you care about the deeper meaning and that only seems to happen when you have correct context. Empathising with it from an external perspective will never be the same as living it.
> 
> ...



I love "Bloody Sunday" from U2 (as a great song), but I can imagine (don't know where you come from in GB, so forgive me if in any way it's wrong what I say) you relate totally different to that song due to another perspective on that topic?!



givemenoughrope said:


> One weird thing about this is that the prize usually goes to a composer, meaning one person who sat (or stood) in a room and wrote music and had it performed or performed it with others. This is a piece of popular music (or whatever you want to call it, you know, compared to a concert work) made by a team of people or teams of people many of whom may never have even met each other. Millions of dollars have gone into promoting it and the artist complete with big budget videos.To make things even weirder the Pultizer spokesman claims that this is the most innovative music made in 2017 and politics (ie Trump) have little to do with it. Ok. Everything in the western world down to which fast food I eat is now divided by political lines. Why pretend that it isn’t?
> 
> I get why this album (and previous albums of his) are a big deal. Rap/hip hop is a fairly limited genre and for someone to make us hear it in a different way is no small feat. But the fact that it needs the budget and production of several Dark Side of the Moon’s impresses me a little less. Most of the music I treasure the most, be it rock, rap, jazz, a string quartet or Greek Rembetika, just sounds like what it is...several people in a room making music which then takes us to a completely different place.


I don't think the composer comparison is fair. I/We don't know what KL has done on his albums/songs. Yes he hasn't done everything; but Beethoven and Mozart certainly didn't play every instrument in their symphonies either...but it doesn't make one piece superior to the other.
There are many other people doing the same music, criticizing the same topics, talking about the same stuff as KL I imagine, so by giving it to him (who is obviously widely known) you acknowledge and honor everybody who does this...


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 19, 2018)

Totally agree. 

But there are a few things going on here with this prize (as you also pointed out generlly), some musical and some political. I just think it’s odd that Pulitzer board denies making a political statement. Maybe I don’t understand how all of that works or the implications for them. Whether they want to admit it or not they are making a political (and musical) statement and shouldn’t downplay it.


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## fretti (Apr 19, 2018)

givemenoughrope said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> But there are a few things going on here with this prize (as you also pointed out generlly), some musical and some political. I just think it’s odd that Pulitzer board denies making a political statement. Maybe I don’t understand how all of that works or the implications for them. Whether they want to admit it or not they are making a political (and musical) statement and shouldn’t downplay it.


In one way or the other every price is driven by politics and public voices...DiCaprio won an Oscar for a movie that many people didn't see as his best performance, and at least I had the feeling that they denied him so often (with better performances) and so many people wanted him to get one for a long time, that they somehow felt they needed to give it to him now (not saying he didn't deserved it, but he should have won it for earlier movies)...I bet there are many other examples where prices were taken as political statements (even if not publicly stated they were...); but I am to tired to search through the internet right now to find some of them (even to tired to search through my head right now...)


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## JohnG (Apr 19, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> I don't think the US education/government systems are focusing on 'white people' first out of a racism (of course there are racist c**** out there) but systematically I think its taught that way because the US was colonised by Europeans



I wish this were true but it isn't. Sadly, there are textbooks here that describe slaves as 'migrants' or 'workers,' as though they came over voluntarily, looking for jobs. Examples abound in American History textbooks of deliberate efforts to minimise the history of slavery here. 

Los Angeles Times: http://www.latimes.com/books/jacket...ewash-slavery-segregation-20150707-story.html

Newsweek: http://www.newsweek.com/company-beh...ling-slaves-workers-apologizes-we-made-380168

Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/whitewashing-civil-war-history-for-young-minds/2015/07/06/1168226c-2415-11e5-b77f-eb13a215f593_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.9b1f9290ca06

It's true that the US is still predominantly caucasian (white) but it is vastly more heterogeneous than, say, Japan, or Great Britain.

There are many places, Los Angeles being one, in which whites are a minority. In the 2008 census, 47 million Americans self-identified as "Hispanic or Latino." While many of those see themselves as white, judging by the history that's in schoolbooks you would think people with brown skin or who originated from somewhere besides Northern Europe were invisible. Their experiences during reconstruction, the migrations, Jim Crow, lynching, segregation, internment of Japanese, treatment of migrant workers, virtual enslavement of many Asian immigrants in the 19th century -- these subjects are almost never discussed from the point of view of people who were most affected. 

Unfortunately, when they do get a mention, often the language minimises the reality or suggests that incidents such as lynching were few and far between.

The US is still a great place for opportunity for many. I like it here, but it fails to educate people about the entire history. The bewilderment and shock that greets Lamar's lyrics often reflects the resulting ignorance.

Of course, some people just may not like his material. Hard to argue that.


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## Daniel James (Apr 19, 2018)

JohnG said:


> I wish this were true but it isn't. Sadly, there are textbooks here that describe slaves as 'migrants' or 'workers,' as though they came over voluntarily, looking for jobs. Examples abound in American History textbooks of deliberate efforts to minimise the history of slavery here.
> 
> Los Angeles Times: http://www.latimes.com/books/jacket...ewash-slavery-segregation-20150707-story.html
> 
> ...



Sorry I think you missed my point a little. I was saying I understand why the education system focuses on european people primarily and other countries, cultures, races etc are spoken of in how they relate to that european history.

America was colonised by the English, French, Spanish, Dutch, Swedish...So when they came over they would have brought the culture, law systems, educational systems, governmental systems, with them. So that is the foundation upon which modern America is built. If there was an influx of white european migration to Asia or Africa I imagine they wouldn't change their systems overnight to include the perspectives of every different person now in their system. They will tell history from the Asian/African perspective and slowly overtime as those white european migrants became a bigger part of society (in numbers and representation) it would adjust to represent the people more fully, as America is currently doing (one can not claim America is as bad today, in terms of race relations, as it was a hundred years ago...room for more improvement but it _has _improved)

So again I don't think the system is set up to be anti multicultural, it was set up to reflect the places and the peoples of which it originated. Multiculturalism like we have it today is pretty new in the grand scheme of things, the USA is only what 240 years old, its going to take time to get it 'right'. Like I said if you were to have an influx of Japanese people to Ghana, the Ghanan's are not going to adjust their system immediately to speak Japanese, teach Japanese culture practises, tell history from the Japanese perspective....They will do things the Ghanan way, and slowly over time integrate bits and pieces until its fully multi cultural. And again on that point, progressive true multiculturalism seems to mostly happen in western countries which were originally founded by white (skin colour is irrelevant to this I think) Europeans. They are not setting up the system to be AGAINST people who are not European, its just that is is set up to reflect the historical European culture. Like I say its an interesting topic to observe. And considering how many people and cultures exist within the USA I am glad to see how well held together it is. There are issues absolutely but it is, at the end of the day, a functioning, prosperous society full of life/music/art/freedom.

So yes discrimination exists and it needs to be gotten rid of altogether. But never forget how far as a society we have come already. The european western nations provide protections *as a point* for people of all backgrounds, a privilege not afforded by all nations around the world (look at what happened in Zimbabwe after independence). Humans have the potential to be cunts regardless of where they are from or what they look like.....but they also hold the capacity for good and progression. So while the education system is build upon a historically european background, the west is adapting and learning. It is open to suggestion....a privilege provided by a free democratic society. Again a privilege not always provided in the reverse scenario.

So again to to clarify, I honestly don't think the education system is set up as _anti_ non European, the same as Japanese culture isnt anti non Japanese.....its just set up in its own image. But at least the west is open and willing to adapt to include, just don't expect it to happen fast.

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Apr 19, 2018)

paularthur said:


> John is right to a large extent... A great example of this is how we are taught about pilgrims and natives in grade sc, which is why voices and percpectives like KL's are so important.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, John is right... A great (arguably the best) example of this is how we are taught about pilgrims and natives in grade school, which is why voices and perspectives like KL's are so important.
> ...



And *that* _probably_ contributed to his prize win. This is what progress looks like. You can't change a thousands of years old culture overnight. Its bit by bit, social movement by social movement. As a human you have no 'rights' inherently they are provided to you by society. Thats why in one country you can be a famous drag queen while the same act in another country gets you thrown from a roof to your death.

Your rights are provided from the culture upon which they originate. A culture developed over thousands of years of wars and fighting and pain and suffering to get us to a point where should you choose you can hit the town in full drag to hold a meeting about religion followed by a discussion about how much you hate your leaders and how shitty the culture is....while being able to do so in the same culture that provides you that 'right.'

Like I said I think credit where its due, The west IS progressing, it IS adapting, it IS learning. European history and the rights that come from it have been developed over thousands years, Its hard to expect it to change _dramatically_ over a few decades. Kendrik Lamar winning could absolutely be tied to the progression of society, and its message will almost certainly work its way into the culture as a whole. We already have 'black history month' here for that very reason, that very desire to try to include, to progress. The same as you would probably need a white history month if multiculturalism was instead a mass European migration to Africa or Asia. So again I don't think the system is _against _anyone in particular. 

Europeans tend to flourish in countries like America, not because the system is against non europeans but because it was built around a system and culture europeans are already a part of. It will always be hard to incorporate a different culture into a nations founding culture. Again if there was a mass european migration to Asia tomorrow there will be a lot of white european people who will feel that the system is rigged against them when its more that it was founded in the image of the people who founded the nation.

This is going a little off topic now... but I felt it could explain why non Americans might not understand the _why _of KL's win. And I do think in a way its related to cultural context.

-DJ


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## JohnG (Apr 19, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> So again I don't think the system is set up to be anti multicultural, it was set up to reflect the places and the peoples of which it originated.



DJ, I think you miss my point entirely and, by extension, the point I read in Lamar's lyrics. 

What I'm getting at is that there _is_ no "US culture." There are a number of US cultures, but you wouldn't know that from seeing most movies or TV, the principal means by which non-Americans imbibe an impression of the USA. 

US culture originated in a lot of places besides Europe (including the people that were here already). And on top of that, it was shaped by what happened to the people once they got here and how they were treated. All the people, not just the ones that ended up on top economically and in the power structure.

There is a beautiful story of America, which many experience; one of opportunity and fairness, of prosperity and the rule of law. 

But for a moment, instead picture "the story of America" from the point of view of black people. It's one of slavery, terror, rape, torture, dehumanization, systematic segregation and denial of access to capital to start businesses or, often, even buy a house or car. I'm sure you've read about the number of unarmed black men who've been shot by the police in the recent past. For more on the contemporary experience of black people here, check out Between the World and Me, a sobering read if there ever were one.

Even today, many textbooks accord non-whites (at best) a two-dimensional, silent historical role as props for the Adventures of the Dominant Group. As a result, the picture of "US Culture" that appears in most non-Americans' minds is that of white people.

It is not about discrimination and racism as such. Instead, it's about the near-total invisibility of those who were marginalized, overlooked, or enslaved. And it's not "multiculturalism," a term that I think in general is so wooly and laden with baggage that it may no longer be all that helpful or useful, even though it may be well intentioned.

Lamar's work inhabits those stories, alludes to and reflects those "invisibles," and validates them by speaking up, which is why I am pleased to see the award, even though some of the lyrics make me uncomfortable.


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## StephenForsyth (Apr 19, 2018)

What on earth even is this thread my god.


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## paularthur (Apr 19, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> And *that* _probably_ contributed to his prize win. This is what progress looks like. You can't change a thousands of years old culture overnight. Its bit by bit, social movement by social movement. As a human you have no 'rights' inherently they are provided to you by society. Thats why in one country you can be a famous drag queen while the same act in another country gets you thrown from a roof to your death.
> 
> Your rights are provided from the culture upon which they originate. A culture developed over thousands of years of wars and fighting and pain and suffering to get us to a point where should you choose you can hit the town in full drag to hold a meeting about religion followed by a discussion about how much you hate your leaders and how shitty the culture is....while being able to do so in the same culture that provides you that 'right.'
> 
> ...



My cpu is on the fritz idk what just happened there^, weird edit / double comment / erase thing...
Yeah it is, my comments are meant to kind of glue it together... and i agree it does contribute to his W, nu-story.


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## JohnG (Apr 19, 2018)

StephenForsyth said:


> What on earth even is this thread my god.



Always a fair question. I don't think it's possible to separate Lamar's music from his lyrics and intentions. So I think we're talking about that.


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## KEM (Apr 19, 2018)

StephenForsyth said:


> What on earth even is this thread my god.



Well, Kendrick Lamar won a Pulitzer and now it’s... who colonized the America’s?


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## Daniel James (Apr 19, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Lamar's work inhabits those stories, alludes to and reflects those "invisibles," and validates them by speaking up, which is why I am pleased to see the award, even though some of the lyrics make me uncomfortable.



I agree with that.



JohnG said:


> What I'm getting at is that there _is_ no "US culture."



The US culture is 100% _built_ on European culture (for better or worse) history is _FULL_ of stories of conquest, colonisation, murder, genocide, slavery (the Romans loved slaves regardless of skin colour, nationality etc)...and these stories are not exclusive to white Europeans either. When you think of the founding of the nation, the declaration of independence, how many native americans were at the signing compared to Europeans? I'll be honest I don't actually know (funny how they don't teach that part of history too much in UK schools) but I imagine the ratio was skewed in favour of white europeans. 

The culture that was brought over during the colonisation was 100% european. When America decided to go independent there would have obviously been a shift culturally but the way they lived their every day lives was still rooted in european history. The US culture over the 240 years that followed were full of situations where the culture evolved and diverted from is European counterpart but its still a plant from the same root. During that time slavery was abolished in a _huge_ sign of progress, (keeping in mind of course that slavery _still_ existed around the world at this point and not exclusive to any country or race) showing the wests desire and ability to adapt. But you have to again remember this is thousands of years of history, the progress we have made is astounding. And again I don't believe the culture here is systematically set up to be against anyone specifically (and I know that racism still exists anecdotally, and yes I think racists are cuntfucks) its just tends to favour those who historically were already a part of that culture. The same as someone from Japan, born and raised here but whose family raised them with the Japanese culture would fit right in if they moved to Japan more so than me who was raised in European culture. So yeah I honestly don't see a system created to keep people down, I see a system that is try to make all the compromises it can to accommodate _literally_ everyone.

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Apr 19, 2018)

KEM said:


> Well, Kendrick Lamar won a Pulitzer and now it’s... who colonized the America’s?



Sorry that was my fault. I was trying to express why a European might have a harder time _understanding_ Kendrik Lamar bases on cultural context. The history of cultural context needed some unpacking, but I may have gone too in depth.

It is related to the discussion, its just in more depth than I think people were ready to get into when they were talking about the value of his dick.

-DJ


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 19, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> So yeah I honestly don't see a system created to keep people down, I see a system that is try to make all the compromises it can to accommodate _literally_ everyone.
> 
> -DJ



I think this might be a case of a UK/EU pov used to assess a place that isn’t really set up that way. I’ve rarely thought of the US as a place that accommodates anyone. I think of it as a place where money talks and you are otherwise on your own to a large degree.


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 19, 2018)

KEM said:


> Personally, I think awards are completely useless, they don’t mean anything, it’s all just to fuel the ego, so this really shouldn’t be a big deal because it won’t change anything.



What’s wrong with fueling the ego?


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## n9n9n9 (Apr 19, 2018)

"I see a system... that is trying to make all the compromises it can to accommodate literally everyone"

That is just... wow. I have to say, man, that I couldn't disagree more. I've lived in Philly, DC, NYC and LA and there are millions and millions of people that would have a lot to say about that (if they thought it was worth their breath.)

I dunno. Watch I am Not Your Negro, maybe. Best film of last year.

There is so much amazing art and writing and literature that are there to dive into. I think that you would find some other perspectives enlightening, even if they don't change your mind... but I'm guessing that they would.


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## KEM (Apr 19, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Sorry that was my fault. I was trying to express why a European might have a harder time _understanding_ Kendrik Lamar bases on cultural context. The history of cultural context needed some unpacking, but I may have gone too in depth.
> 
> It is related to the discussion, its just in more depth than I think people were ready to get into when they were talking about the value of his dick.
> 
> -DJ



Haha you’re good Daniel, you make a fair point, being a 20 year old from the suburbs of St. Louis (the highest murder rate in the country) I of course have a bit of a skewed view on the subject. A lot of people here can really relate to Kendrick, it’s the music that speaks to them, and there’s also a lot of other people all across the globe who resonate with him, so I understand why he won. Personally I thought his album was a bit boring sonically, but I do find lots of great lyricism on it, which is definitely his strength.


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## KEM (Apr 19, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> What’s wrong with fueling the ego?



Nothing, but to me that seems to be the whole purpose of “award” ceremonies, it’s not about celebrating artistic expression or innovation within a field, it’s all about giving a pat on the back to whoever sold the most albums or got the most radio plays, and that’s where I think the problem is.


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## Daniel James (Apr 19, 2018)

n9n9n9 said:


> "I see a system... that is trying to make all the compromises it can to accommodate literally everyone"
> 
> That is just... wow. I have to say, man, that I couldn't disagree more. I've lived in Philly, DC, NYC and LA and there are millions and millions of people that would have a lot to say about that (if they thought it was worth their breath.)
> 
> ...



If you live in this country there are no laws specifically targeting one group over another. We are all equal under the law. That right doesn't exist in every country or culture around the world. That level of blanket equal treatment is the very definition of accommodating everyone. Thats what I meant. Its a cultural decision we made to let people live how they want to live, again that doesn't extend to all countries or cultures.

For the rest, go read back through my previous posts on cultural context.

-DJ


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## D Halgren (Apr 19, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> If you live in this country there are no laws specifically targeting one group over another. We are all equal under the law. That right doesn't exist in every country or culture around the world. That level of blanket equal treatment is the very definition of accommodating everyone. Thats what I meant. Its a cultural decision we made to let people live how they want to live, again that doesn't extend to all countries or cultures.
> 
> For the rest, go read back through my previous posts on cultural context.
> 
> -DJ


There are no laws, but there is racial profiling by police, racism and segregation in real estate and job opportunities, and no representation in mainstream media outlets.

That is the black perspective.


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## Daniel James (Apr 19, 2018)

D Halgren said:


> There are no laws, but there is racial profiling by police, racism and segregation in real estate and job opportunities, and no representation in mainstream media outlets.
> 
> That is the black perspective.



That my good sir is a deep deep conversation so i'll try not to have that in this thread.

And yeah I am just saying that on a systematic level there is nothing differentiating one person from another. You can go down the conversational route of statistics, individual bias, state by state etc (but again I think we should avoid that one). But there is nothing written that prevents anyone from doing anything regardless of background. How well the individual people of the country stick to that, and their reasons for doing so, is a different story and doesn't change the point I was making in that the system is _designed_ to accommodate everyone. Again something which you wont find everywhere on earth.

-DJ


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## D Halgren (Apr 19, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> That my good sir is a deep deep conversation so i'll try not to have that in this thread.
> 
> And yeah I am just saying that on a systematic level there is nothing differentiating one person from another. You can go down the conversational route of statistics, individual bias, state by state etc (but again I think we should avoid that one). But there is nothing written that prevents anyone from doing anything regardless of background. How well the individual people of the country stick to that, and their reasons for doing so, is a different story and doesn't change the point I was making in that the system is _designed_ to accommodate everyone. Again something which you wont find everywhere on earth.
> 
> -DJ


Well played sir

My point is, that is where Kendrick is coming from, which was the point of this thread. The 'in theory' thing only works if you aren't the target in America.


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## chimuelo (Jun 5, 2018)

KEM said:


> Haha you’re good Daniel, you make a fair point, being a 20 year old from the suburbs of St. Louis (the highest murder rate in the country) I of course have a bit of a skewed view on the subject.


You could always move to St.Charles.


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## chimuelo (Jun 5, 2018)

I think other perspectives are overlooked in this thread.
America is a dream, and a struggle.
Ali and Obama gave millions of Africans more pride and hope than any events in their history.

Can you imagine living in Africa, and reading about Blacks shipped around the world as Slaves, then return as Champions.
I prefer reading of the sucesss stories.
The victim stories are equally important.
Black Super Hero movies are awesome.

Personally Im tired of Poncho Villa and El Chapo as Hispanic role models.
I want a Mariachi Accordian Player to spin like a cyclone re emerging as a Bull Fighter in a cape who flies at Mach 5 to take on Coyotes, Human Traffikers, Cartel leaders, and Sanctuary City policies.


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## KEM (Jun 5, 2018)

chimuelo said:


> You could always move to St.Charles.


Woahhhhh dude are you from here?! I actually live in St. Charles! St. Peters to be exact!!!


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## D Halgren (Jun 5, 2018)

KEM said:


> Woahhhhh dude are you from here?! I actually live in St. Charles! St. Peters to be exact!!!


I'm from Black Jack.


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## chimuelo (Jun 5, 2018)

Just sold property at Whitmore Forest last year.

Black Jack and Old Halls Ferry, lots of good memories.

Lots of my brothas’ I gig with off and on we’re from Cross Keys, Jennings and Black Jack.
I haven’t lived there since I was in my early twenties.
Back in the old SS Admiral days.


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## D Halgren (Jun 5, 2018)

chimuelo said:


> Just sold property at Whitmore Forest last year.
> 
> Black Jack and Old Halls Ferry, lots of good memories.
> 
> ...


Small world! I lived off Jamestown on Parkton Place. Went to Jamestown, Hazelwood Jr, and Hazelwood high. We moved in 88.


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## chimuelo (Jun 5, 2018)

Hazelwood Greasers....


Pelican Island was where I rode my Dirt bikes as a kid.
We drove out from North City on Halls Ferry, took A right on Old Halls Ferry out to Douglas Road.
Tore that place up.
The old roads like Shackelford and Jamestown were uninhabited back then.
It’s why we could drive on dirt bikes at the age of 13 all the way and never get caught.
One time a County Mount pulled a U but we just drove into a cornfield.
Once you made it past 270 and Dick Weber’s Bowling Lanes it was a walk in the park.
Now there’s houses all the way out to the River...


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## D Halgren (Jun 5, 2018)

chimuelo said:


> Hazelwood Greasers....
> 
> 
> Pelican Island was where I rode my Dirt bikes as a kid.
> ...


Dick Weber's!!! That's where my parents used to bowl!!! I would hang in the little arcade. Yeah, my neighborhood used to dead end into a farm and was surrounded by woods. I looked at gmaps, and now it's completely built up, and Jamestown mall is dead. Kissed my first girl at that mall.


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## chimuelo (Jun 5, 2018)

All the Malls are gone.
I bought my CS80 from Northland Music.
Last time I was there the abandoned mall parking lot is where the Media Matters, Black Lives Matter Soros groups were practicing their moves for City Hall at night down the street in Ferguson.
I too was doing pre production @ Earth City Studios, but for music, not riots.
Time before that I was in the Tornado at Lambert, hiding in the Underground security offices with a hundred terrified souls.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 6, 2018)

I started my kid on the Beatles and Nirvana, but like practically all of his friends he eventually went to hip hop. That's the natural way of things. (He's 28 now and likes a variety of things.)

I've always believed that rock 'n roll was whatever the parents didn't like. Now I'm the parents (or the grandparents!) I don't like hip hop so much, but I'm not really supposed to...that's what makes it rock n roll. I'm supposed to like my Earth Wind and Fire, my JB, my Motown, my Beatles, my Miles, my Tower of Power. I'm supposed to like Bruno Mars because he's recreating funk from my era.

And I do


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## Morning Coffee (Jun 6, 2018)

I thought the name in the title of the thread looked familiar. He apparently got a fan to come up on stage recently to help him sing one of his songs, then publicly shamed her for it! Sounds like a nice guy.


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