# Custom Playback Rules in Staffpad - The mini "crashed" course.



## servandus (Jan 18, 2022)

Hi everybody. Some users kindly pointed out that the techniques discussed in the now defunct thread "Custom Playback Rules in Staffpad" could be seen as a case of reverse engineering by the developers, so I got in touch with DWH at Staffpad, and he confirmed that customizing the playback definition xml files actually violates Staffpad's EULA.

I reported this, and asked the mods to delete the thread, which they promptly did. The purpose of this new thread is just to give some details, so that anyone who could have been following the old thread knows what happened and why.

In his answer, DWH wrote this about creating custom xml files:



> _"These files are undocumented (and code-signed, at least on iOS) for a reason: you risk losing work or corrupting scores, interfering with the update mechanism and potentially isolating yourself from some of the upcoming features that are in development."_



About the philosophy behind their decisions, he pointed out this:



> _"StaffPad isn't sold or advertised as having a modifiable, user-customisable playback system. In fact, StaffPad intentionally operates within a controlled and integrated environment - one which enables composers from non-technical backgrounds to achieve incredible results at a fraction of the cost and complexity of other systems"_



And about the development of the playback engine, he wrote this:



> _"Can things improve, overall? Yes, always. But, it is our responsibility to do this and then release those improvements for all users. It is by far the harder path, and perhaps the more frustrating for highly technical power users. But, this approach allows us to do things differently, bring new experiences and break free from legacy concepts and level-up everyone in ways that otherwise wouldn't be possible"_



So, that's it. Even if I am perplexed and disappointed, I am also grateful that I didn't waste more time on this, so thanks a lot to the people who pointed out this could indeed be a problem.

Now that everything is clear, it's time for me to think about other options. Dorico 4 is finally here, and almost fully armed in the playback department to a point where it might make more sense to spend time building custom expression maps which will continue to work in the long run. 

I will nevertheless continue to use Staffpad for less demanding scores. I wish and hope it can reach the point where customization is no longer needed. But right now, neither wishes nor hopes triggers "spiccato exposed" when I need it, so...


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## jadi (Jan 18, 2022)

servandus said:


> Hi everybody. Some users kindly pointed out that the techniques discussed in the now defunct thread "Custom Playback Rules in Staffpad" could be seen as a case of reverse engineering by the developers, so I got in touch with DWH at Staffpad, and he confirmed that customizing the playback definition xml files actually violates Staffpad's EULA.
> 
> I reported this, and asked the mods to delete the thread, which they promptly did. The purpose of this new thread is just to give some details, so that anyone who could have been following the old thread knows what happened and why.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear this🙁. Thanks for your effort


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## rsg22 (Jan 18, 2022)

This is extremely disheartening and disappointing. That said I'm not completely surprised.



servandus said:


> _DWH: "Can things improve, overall? Yes, always. But, it is our responsibility to do this and then release those improvements for all users. It is by far the harder path, and perhaps the more frustrating for highly technical power users._



I take issue with this particular response you received. The issues & playback bugs your methods fixed are not frustrating for "highly technical power users" - they are frustrating for all users who care about consistent volume across articulations, articulations that actually playback the way they should without adding extraneous markings to the score, etc.

If StaffPad had shown any progress towards fixing playback and library bugs - that would be one thing, but as we know, reporting these kinds of bugs has gotten us nowhere.

I deleted additional paragraphs I was planning on posting in my response, for fear this thread would get moved to the Drama Zone... :/

Thank you for all your efforts @servandus


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## ssnowe (Jan 18, 2022)

Understand their response as they don't want to get caught in a suppprt twilight zone with everybody doing their own thing.

However, it needs to be said that their instrument documentation is really, truly lacking. At the end of the day people just want to play and compose and what was happening here was an attempt to productively and positively work through challenges and make things work.

I love Staffpad output but the input engine is quirky and not really that enjoyable to work with. I will probably focus more on Dorico as time goes on as I've seen that the Dorico developers are incredible (personnally engaging on the forums here and the level of developer support at the Steinberg site has been fantastic).

The Dorico sound set is not currently equivalent to Staffpad but messing around with vsts and the expression map engine can give some nice results.


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## mopsiflopsi (Jan 18, 2022)

A more reassuring answer would have been to acknowledge some of the specific improvements requested by the community, instead of a vague "_Can things improve, overall? Yes, always_." You can say as much about anything, without really committing to do much.


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## Martin S (Jan 18, 2022)

What a damn shame… We can only hope that @servandus excellent and brilliant work will some day find its way into Staffpad’s playback engine. Though I fear that may take a while (if ever).

Nevertheless: Thanks a million for showing us all (incl. StaffPad devs.) what this playback engine and current libraries are actually capable of, with a few and relatively simple tweaks


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 18, 2022)

I am so so sorry to say that I knew this would happen. I have communicated with DWH enough to know that he is not open to anyone else's ideas. I, too, am moving on to Dorico. It is heartbreaking to see the potential that @servandus demonstrated and be unable to harness it. When a company is unwilling to embrace new ideas that obviously make their product a whole lot better, it has no future. I'll continue to use StaffPad as a sketch tool, but I won't invest anymore money in it.


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## muratkayi (Jan 18, 2022)

I get the feeling that Staffpad seems to be a waste of time in the long run. That's not because playback isn't good enough or that it won't get better over time. It might. It's more that an answer like that which does not even show the slightest interest in the actual improvements and progress made, here... This answer does not bode well for interaction between users and developers.

Pointing out a breach of the EULA is one thing. But I am baffled beyond words that there is not the slightest sign of excitement over the possibilities outlined by the work of @servandus, not the faintest consideration of including (instead of actively excluding) users and their visions of what the product could be, no vision of what Staffpad might become, apart from a sleek app.

This means we're just consumers. 
You know. Like back in the 80s.


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## mopsiflopsi (Jan 18, 2022)

muratkayi said:


> You know. Like back in the 80s.


Can the 80s improve, overall? Yes, always.


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## ssnowe (Jan 18, 2022)

Staffpad is now owned by the Muse Group. Not saying that is good or bad but have been watching them since the Audacity dust up and the stuff they pulled with analytics and trying to take ownership of open source code (they essentially were asking open source authors to sign away any rights to their code for no compensation). 

Having Staffpad claim EULA for the contents of industry standard text based xml files has a farm fresh smell to it.


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## servandus (Jan 18, 2022)

Thanks everyone for the kind words. Truth is I would have loved it if the tutorial had served as a starting point for Staffpad users to discuss playback tips and tricks, share xml files, etc. Compared with Dorico's expression maps, Staffpad's playback rules have a lot of advantages: the syntax is very easy to learn, the scripting powerful enough to handle a lot of playback scenarios, the configuration much faster to set up... I honestly thought that, once the tutorial was finished and the basics laid out, the thread could have easily escalated into a powerful resource for Staffpad users.

But it's ok. I'm rather practical with this kind of matters, and it's always best to move on and look for alternatives as quickly as possible. The way I see it, apart from the legality of it, there's absolutely no point in trying to customize files which could stop working at any time in the near future. I sent them a lengthy email explaining my suggestions as best as I could. David's reply was equally detailed, and I really appreciate he took the time to talk in a friendly tone about things he needed not mention. It's just that, even if I understand Staffpad is his baby, and everyone has his own way to raise his kids, he seems to be an overprotective father. I'm of another kind. For me, it all boils down to this:



> _But, it is our responsibility to do this and then release those improvements for all users_



That sums pretty much all for me, and I am glad he put it so clearly, because I now have no doubts about the future of the app, and how much time and effort I should put into mastering it... which is basically none, of course. We can rest assured that they will take care of everything, so there's really no point. 

The only thing I miserably failed to convey in my message to David is that, with such a small team, by the time they are done fixing the countless playback issues Staffpad exhibits everywhere I'll be probably asking Saint Peter whether Bach made it there or he is downstairs playing tritones vs. tridents.


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 18, 2022)

servandus said:


> Thanks everyone for the kind words. Truth is I would have loved it if the tutorial had served as a starting point for Staffpad users to discuss playback tips and tricks, share xml files, etc. Compared with Dorico's expression maps, Staffpad's playback rules have a lot of advantages: the syntax is very easy to learn, the scripting powerful enough to handle a lot of playback scenarios, the configuration much faster to set up... I honestly thought that, once the tutorial was finished and the basics laid out, the thread could have easily escalated into a powerful resource for Staffpad users.
> 
> But it's ok. I'm rather practical with this kind of matters, and it's always best to move on and look for alternatives as quickly as possible. The way I see it, apart from the legality of it, there's absolutely no point in trying to customize files which could stop working at any time in the near future. I sent them a lengthy email explaining my suggestions as best as I could. David's reply was equally detailed, and I really appreciate he took the time to talk in a friendly tone about things he needed not mention. It's just that, even if I understand Staffpad is his baby, and everyone has his own way to raise his kids, he seems to be an overprotective father. I'm of another kind. For me, it all boils down to this:
> 
> ...


Thank you for your wonderful efforts. If you make headway with Dorico expression maps, please do share your experience and resources here. I am grappling with them right now, and though it is getting easier, it is still a bit of a minefield. I hope to get a template going soon.


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## MadLad (Jan 18, 2022)

servandus said:


> We can rest assured that they will take care of everything, so there's really no point.


I sure hope so but when? Like, the thing with the dynamics of the staccato vs. legato in your video? This would be such a simple thing to fix and doesn't seem like a big deal at first but it is. It's so incredibly frustrating, balancing the dynamics of the staccato and the legato in your compositions and the problem has been there forever it seems. 

After you showed us how fast and easy this could be fixed, I couldn't help but wonder about the Staffpad team's priorities. They've released small fixes before. Why can't they fix these few simple things (the dynamics, the spiccato problem with Spitfire Chamber Strings, the timing of some samples, etc.) in a small update? It would make a BIG difference.


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 18, 2022)

MadLad said:


> I sure hope so but when? Like, the thing with the dynamics of the staccato vs. legato in your video? This would be such a simple thing to fix and doesn't seem like a big deal at first but it is. It's so incredibly frustrating, balancing the dynamics of the staccato and the legato in your compositions and the problem has been there forever it seems.
> 
> After you showed us how fast and easy this could be fixed, I couldn't help but wonder about the Staffpad team's priorities. They've released small fixes before. Why can't they fix these few simple things (the dynamics, the spiccato problem with Spitfire Chamber Strings, the timing of some samples, etc.) in a small update? It would make a BIG difference.


I’m pretty sure he was being sarcastic. But you’re right, it’s beyond ridiculous that these things weren’t fixed long ago after we saw how easy it was.


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## ssnowe (Jan 18, 2022)

You ever work in a job or been in a relationship that wasn't going anywhere but you stuck with it, just because it was convienent. Kind of feeling that way regarding Staffpad right now. I invested some money in it, can generally make it work the way I want, but the reality is it feels like there is no real future with it. 

The changes in the most recent update didn't really matter to me. The new audio capabilities are nice but don't match how I personally want to use Staffpad (note that I said personally, your usage and mileage may differ). I want to use it as a music composition tool, if I want audio I have several daws that will always do it easier and better.

I was hoping that the input system would become simpler somehow (i.e. press down on pen and have an interactive note/rest list pop-up rather then handwriting), that the mixer would be easier to navigate (a master mixer rather than having to go into each instrument and set individually) and so on. Changes focused more on usability and less on "hey, hold my beer and watch this cool trick I learned ...".

What I think will happen is that Muse Group will eventually turn Staffpad into a subscription based income generator (watch it start with the audio file snippets) at which point I will probably move on.


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 18, 2022)

ssnowe said:


> You ever work in a job or been in a relationship that wasn't going anywhere but you stuck with it, just because it was convienent. Kind of feeling that way regarding Staffpad right now. I invested some money in it, can generally make it work the way I want, but the reality is it feels like there is no real future with it.
> 
> The changes in the most recent update didn't really matter to me. The new audio capabilities are nice but don't match how I personally want to use Staffpad (note that I said personally, your usage and mileage may differ). I want to use it as a music composition tool, if I want audio I have several daws that will always do it easier and better.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I think you've about summed it up. I am heavily invested in StaffPad, and I really regret it now. I was blindsided when the company was sold and it was kept on the QT. And then when the Musescore guy came on the forum here and spouted a bunch of crap about the lofty direction it was going and then deleted all of his comments and DMed us and asked us to delete our comments where we had quoted him, I knew we were in deep doo-doo. We just waited a whole year for the "hold my beer and watch this" trick. As Servandus said above, we'll all be dead before they fix any of the problems. It's time to move on because, as you said, this relationshipb is going nowhere.


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## sundrowned (Jan 19, 2022)

I'd pay a considerable amount of money for Staffpad Pro that allowed modifying. If it implemented further note input methods, other improvements, and opened the app up to third party library developers I'd happily pay yearly update costs. 

As far as I'm concerned staffpad are rejecting considerable income by not doing any of the above. Which I struggle to understand.


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## muratkayi (Jan 19, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> And then when the Musescore guy came on the forum here and spouted a bunch of crap about the lofty direction it was going and then deleted all of his comments and DMed us and asked us to delete our comments where we had quoted him


Oh dear, I had already forgotten about that!


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## muratkayi (Jan 19, 2022)

sundrowned said:


> Staffpad Pro


While I do own software that cost more than Staffpad I absolutely feel that a platform I spent more than 500 Euros on definitely should already be considered "pro".
I feel the same way, though, about the fact I'd happily pay for an upgrade like that. I thought it might be about being able to prioritize due to costs. I thought it might be about too few people on the team. And the solution for all of this and similar things can be an open and inclusive stance towards an active user community.

But there is no solution to the problem of ignorance or possessive thinking or a lack of interest or whatever the heck is actually going on here. I mean, I was like *really Mitchell? really?!*


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## sundrowned (Jan 19, 2022)

muratkayi said:


> I absolutely feel that a platform I spent more than 500 Euros on definitely should already be considered "pro".


Fair point


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## CologneComposer (Jan 19, 2022)

Yesterday, I was speachless, when I saw that the tutorial was shut down. The gentle breeze of fresh air, which Servandus createt with his tutorial was so refreshing. His suggestions and the whole Tutorial were brilliant. Real Teaching in 21st Century. Everything so clearly put down. But the Window to this was shut yesterday by the Developers. Madness!!!

It is a good Idea to concentrate the Efforts now on Dorico 4. But as I understand the Playback Architecture of both apps, Dorico can not manage the Legato transitions, we are used to have in Staffpad, because of real time Playback.

And what I dont understand is the whole Situation. What would happen to us, if we continue to discuss some steps to tweak an xml File, e.g. to even out the Staccato-Legato Dynamic Differences in this Forum. Perhaps not in the perfect Form like Servandus offered in his Thread. Is this illegal?


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 19, 2022)

@servandus I wish you would repost the playback example that you sent to StaffPad so that people who look at this in the future can see what they rejected. I want to look back at it myself once in a while to remind myself what was lost.


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## muratkayi (Jan 19, 2022)

That's right, that video in itself can't be a problem and it was a magnificent documentation of everything that's been going on...


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## sundrowned (Jan 19, 2022)

It is available cached on google along with a fair amount of the thread


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 19, 2022)

sundrowned said:


> It is available cached on google along with a fair amount of the thread


I finally found the cached thread on Google. (Not a Google user, so it took a bit.) Unfortunately, Page 6 where Sevandus reported his submission and included his video was not yet indexed before the page came down.


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## sundrowned (Jan 19, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> I finally found the cached thread on Google. (Not a Google user, so it took a bit.) Unfortunately, Page 6 where Sevandus reported his submission and included his video was not yet indexed before the page came down.


Ah sorry I thought it had got that page


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 19, 2022)

sundrowned said:


> Ah sorry I thought it had got that page


There's another good example there on Page ?-- I forget. Even if I had the whole thread intact and the skills to exploit it, it is far more complicated on iOS, so I wouldn't bother with it. I am moving on, building Dorico templates. The indifference, the apathy, and the callousness shown to Servandus by DWH are unforgivable to me. Once we saw how great this thing could sound with minimal effort, it became apparent to me that there was no future here. To think all this time that all that potential was just lying there fallow. . .it boggles the mind. It couldn't be chalked up to anything other than sheer laziness and total disregard for the user base. (Much like the missing articulation lists.) I had been strongly recommending it to all of my students and colleagues, but no more. I will continue to use it as a sketchpad because I am heavily invested in it (23 libraries), but I will actively ward people away from it now. Perhaps some day I can discourage as many people from it as I have encouraged to it.


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## Composer 2021 (Jan 19, 2022)

I mean, I never had any high expectations for customizability on an iOS app to begin with. My biggest concern is still the handwriting detection, which I would happy contribute my handwriting to in order to help their detection engine.


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## muratkayi (Jan 19, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> There's another good example there on Page ?-- I forget. Even if I had the whole thread intact and the skills to exploit it, it is far more complicated on iOS, so I wouldn't bother with it. I am moving on, building Dorico templates. The indifference, the apathy, and the callousness shown to Servandus by DWH are unforgivable to me. Once we saw how great this thing could sound with minimal effort, it became apparent to me that there was no future here. To think all this time that all that potential was just lying there fallow. . .it boggles the mind. It couldn't be chalked up to anything other than sheer laziness and total disregard for the user base. (Much like the missing articulation lists.) I had been strongly recommending it to all of my students and colleagues, but no more. I will continue to use it as a sketchpad because I am heavily invested in it (23 libraries), but I will actively ward people away from it now. Perhaps some day I can discourage as many people from it as I have encouraged to it.


You express many things I felt since I read the excerpts of DWH's reply to @servandus. Especially the fact that I always thought tweaking sample playback is a big endeavour, it takes patience...wow. That one gets more and more bitter by the hour. 

As concerns the info buried in the deleted thread apart from the video demos: I really think it is not a good idea to follow those tips, now. We basically know now that the playback engine is eventually bound to break any tweaks you might add.


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## rsg22 (Jan 19, 2022)

Composer 2021 said:


> I mean, I never had any high expectations for customizability on an iOS app to begin with. My biggest concern is still the handwriting detection, which I would happy contribute my handwriting to in order to help their detection engine.


I agree and I never expected customization on iOS - the *big big big* problem I have is servandus showed us that playback/library/whatever bugs and inconsistencies we've been complaining about and reporting to StaffPad have fixes that are but a few XML tweaks away - *yet *StaffPad/MuseScore refuses to fix anything. Not to mention the hidden great-sounding articulations that were discovered and are unavailable to us.

For me, and this is just my opinion, I can live with the terrible handwriting recognition (which I'm not disagreeing about), but for a product whose claim to fame is it's playback engine and library integration - it's unforgivable that the associated issues receive zero priority. Coupled with DWH's take on the matter, hard for me to stomach.

If anything drives me away that will be it. At the moment I'm not very eager to invest in and learn another tool (Dorico, expression maps, etc.)...

Rock, meet hard place...

Edit to add: it's really difficult now for me to pick up StaffPad and get anything done, now that I know the things I wrestle with could and should be fixed so easily...


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## Composer 2021 (Jan 19, 2022)

I think DWH is trying to keep in the good graces of Apple. StaffPad was featured at an Apple event last year - how many apps get featured like that? We all know Apple goes berserk over any kind of customization on iOS apps that they feel could even _possibly _lead to a security risk. They infamously refuse to allow apps that let you run unsigned software of any kind. Maybe DWH is trying not to upset Apple by issuing a reply which echoes the EULA, and maybe the original thread’s deletion was a complete over-reaction.


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## Composer 2021 (Jan 19, 2022)

As for getting them to natively fix the problems, just keep bugging them about it, I guess…


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## jadi (Jan 19, 2022)

rsg22 said:


> I agree and I never expected customization on iOS - the *big big big* problem I have is servandus showed us that playback/library/whatever bugs and inconsistencies we've been complaining about and reporting to StaffPad have fixes that are but a few XML tweaks away - *yet *StaffPad/MuseScore refuses to fix anything. Not to mention the hidden great-sounding articulations that were discovered and are unavailable to us.
> 
> For me, and this is just my opinion, I can live with the terrible handwriting recognition (which I'm not disagreeing about), but for a product whose claim to fame is it's playback engine and library integration - it's unforgivable that the associated issues receive zero priority. Coupled with DWH's take on the matter, hard for me to stomach.
> 
> ...


On top of that I don't understand why editing these xml files is against the law


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## Composer 2021 (Jan 19, 2022)

Like I said before, StaffPad can’t endorse editing software files and still have Apple‘s approval.


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 19, 2022)

Composer 2021 said:


> Like I said before, StaffPad can’t endorse editing software files and still have Apple‘s approval.


I think this misses the point a bit. All of this was easily fixable and could have been done long ago, and it just wasn't, and it won't ever be.


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## Composer 2021 (Jan 19, 2022)

Is there a reason they won’t fix it?


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 19, 2022)

Composer 2021 said:


> Is there a reason they won’t fix it?


I'm guessing they're too busy boozing at the local watering hole.


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## muratkayi (Jan 19, 2022)

Reverse engineering is legally complex as is anything when the legalities have to be taken into account. On top of everything else, the situation differs from country to country.
Considering the EULA, in Germany, e.g. you are not legally bound to the contents of any EULA that was presented to you only after buying. Also, if you read up on reverse engineering and legalities on Wikipedia you notice the sections say very different things in English and in German, i.e. the boundary between the rights of creators and users runs along very separate paths wether you are in the U.S or in Europe.

You could also argue that calling what servandus did a breach of EULA by reverse engineering is a load of bullocks, because he did not even reverse engineer the software itself, but just figured out the rules of some open protocols (in order to repair a malfunctioning software to boot).

But all that is irrelevant, actually. At least in my opinion. Relevant is:
- Staffpad does not care for user input
- They want that whole community driven help and effort shut down
- They will not mind any community modifications in further updates on the playback engine which might render every effort useless in the long run

It's a cultural mismatch. We thought we were users and might become a community. They just want consumers.


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## ssnowe (Jan 19, 2022)

For me personally I really like Staffpad.

I happily paid a lot of money for the add-on libraries. I really really like the playback engine that sounds (to my ears) good and runs on a handheld computer the thickness of a piece of glass (can't tell you how tired I am of rinky dinky midi playback engines that sound like they came from a cheap game console from 1991).

I enjoy avoiding the hugh number of tracks I need to put into a Cubase or Logic template to deal with all possible articulations and enjoy simply writing music that I can see what is doing just by looking at the notes, symbols, etc (really don't like the mess that comes with composing with piano rolls, midi cc's, hugh templates and instrument sets).

I respect that the Staffpad developers have a vision and want to stick to it, vision is a good thing.

What I'm struggling with is why the developers of Staffpad feel it is necessary to shut down productive input from a very creative user community.

Look at Apple, they barely make any software. They let their customer base do all of the work and take in the lions share of the profits. Keeping a stranglehold on having the user community extend and enhance Staffpad is foolish and shortsighted.


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## Gil (Jan 19, 2022)

Hello,
First, @servandus thank you very much for your work on StaffPad articulations, and so sorry it ended like this, although, as a (iOS) developer, I can understand some part of the answer you received.
Making public some private things means big work: add an UI for the customization, take in account all the user can do and try not to mess with the playback or even worse make the app crashing, even if you demonstrate that articulation customization can be done, add application testing, beta testers, ...

Then, as a StaffPad user (on iPad), using Berlin libraries, what I miss like many others is articulations consistency in existence and in volume. I said in your previous deleted post that I wanted to post something about strange articulations behavior but was waiting for the StaffPad answer.

I'm afraid the only thing we can post to be able to help with these articulation problems is, apart from reporting them to the StaffPad support (and we should do IMO), try to find solutions with what we have in hands.

I began to test just the marcato articulation with the Berlin library and will share my results in a new thread in a few days, trying to provide solutions to problems, like a beginning of a database or a spreadsheet for a reference.

Regards,
Gil.


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## mopsiflopsi (Jan 19, 2022)

I am disappointed like many, but I'm not going to go as far as to discourage people from using StaffPad. Even without the add-on libraries, I think it is a fantastic learning tool, allowing you to completely bypass DAW busy work - which has a significant superfluous learning curve in itself as if learning music wasn't challenging enough for beginners. Not gonna lie, I owe a lot to StaffPad for my musical journey and would probably have quit by now otherwise. 

Re: DWH's priorities - after promising a very shiny new feature very publicly on an Apple event, they have probably been under intense pressure to deliver, damn everything else. Given the time it took (and continues to take) them, they probably underestimated the development challenges of these features. The MuseScore deal must have also thrown a wrench into their daily operations. You might think things should have got better with more resources at their disposal, but in software development, onboarding a single new engineer to a project can slow things down in the short run, let alone dealing with a new corporate structure and new owners.

I agree his response showed a strong lack of tactfulness. He might be feeling overwhelmed these days with all the change happening with his company. But I think accusing him of laziness is a bit too harsh. I am a solo developer myself, hiring contractors from time to time for extra help. Sometimes there are only so many bodies to throw at a great multitude of things that need doing/fixing.

In terms of instigating change: I suspect writing to them individually is not going to make much of a difference, but I wonder if we might get their attention better if a number of us co-signed an open letter or something, both to StaffPad and MuseScore, to highlight exactly how many people consider these to be important issues. Otherwise it's easy for them to brush us aside as noisy individuals.


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 19, 2022)

mopsiflopsi said:


> I am disappointed like many, but I'm not going to go as far as to discourage people from using StaffPad. Even without the add-on libraries, I think it is a fantastic learning tool, allowing you to completely bypass DAW busy work - which has a significant superfluous learning curve in itself as if learning music wasn't challenging enough for beginners. Not gonna lie, I owe a lot to StaffPad for my musical journey and would probably have quit by now otherwise.
> 
> Re: DWH's priorities - after promising a very shiny new feature very publicly on an Apple event, they have probably been under intense pressure to deliver, damn everything else. Given the time it took (and continues to take) them, they probably underestimated the development challenges of these features. The MuseScore deal must have also thrown a wrench into their daily operations. You might think things should have got better with more resources at their disposal, but in software development, onboarding a single new engineer to a project can slow things down in the short run, let alone dealing with a new corporate structure and new owners.
> 
> ...


The part that you are missing is that these playback problems have persisted for a couple of years now, and suddenly Servandus showed us how easy they were to fix. They just never get fixed. Libraries that we paid good hard cash for simply never work like they should because they can't take a little bit of time and tweak the XML files. Then someone comes along with seemingly more know-how than they have, and they won't let him do it either, users be damned.

I won't debate the merits of StaffPad. I saw them instantly, and I invested in it--heavily. But what we have right now is the equivalent of a homeowner putting a new addition on his house while his existing house has broken pipes, missing windows, and a leaking roof. You fix what you have before you build anew. In this instance, a neighbor stopped by and said, "Hey, let me help you fix some of this stuff," and DWH said, "Meh, no thanks."

The potential of this app is momentous, but it is being completely undermined by wholesale neglect of the app's core function in favor of some drum loops and a cheap party trick that every DAW has been able to do for 20 years.


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## muratkayi (Jan 19, 2022)

mopsiflopsi said:


> I wonder if we might get their attention better if a number of us co-signed an open letter or something, both to StaffPad and MuseScore, to highlight exactly how many people consider these to be important issues. Otherwise it's easy for them to brush us aside as noisy individuals.


Let's do it!


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## servandus (Jan 20, 2022)

Finally found some time today to comment on your thoughts. Warning: this is going to be long, and probably as boring as useless 



Jett Hitt said:


> If you make headway with Dorico expression maps, please do share your experience and resources here.


Will do, Jett. And yes, it's tedious, and definitely not as straightforward as editing the definition files in Staffpad, but it will probably be worth it in the long term.



MadLad said:


> I sure hope so but when? Like, the thing with the dynamics of the staccato vs. legato in your video?





Jett Hitt said:


> I’m pretty sure he was being sarcastic. But you’re right, it’s beyond ridiculous that these things weren’t fixed long ago after we saw how easy it was.


Yes, I was. It was just me trying to write in English at 3.00 am 

Some of the most dramatic improvements shown in the video I sent them are just half a line of code. That's the tragedy of all this nonsense.



ssnowe said:


> You ever work in a job or been in a relationship that wasn't going anywhere but you stuck with it, just because it was convenient.


At some point in the past I actually thought I was going to marry the girl  It's just that his father probably wanted a less picky, less independent son in law, and thought I would disgrace her and ruin her life, so he sent her away so that she could meet nicer candidates who wouldn't compromise the integrity of the family. I still feel tempted to date her in secret (she goes on wooing me, you know), but there's really no future. If only her father changed his mind...



sundrowned said:


> As far as I'm concerned staffpad are rejecting considerable income by not doing any of the above. Which I struggle to understand.


I also mentioned that in my message to DWH. Even if I can understand his reasons for keeping his app as closed as possible, I can't help feeling that it's a big mistake.



Jett Hitt said:


> And then when the Musescore guy came on the forum here and spouted a bunch of crap about the lofty direction it was going and then deleted all of his comments and DMed us and asked us to delete our comments where we had quoted him, I knew we were in deep doo-doo.


Missed that. Is the thread still there? What was it about?



CologneComposer said:


> It is a good Idea to concentrate the Efforts now on Dorico 4. But as I understand the Playback Architecture of both apps, Dorico can not manage the Legato transitions, we are used to have in Staffpad, because of real time Playback.


Please, don't use "real time playback" and "legato transitions" in the same sentence, Henrik. Makes my heart bleed 😂



Jett Hitt said:


> @servandus I wish you would repost the playback example that you sent to StaffPad so that people who look at this in the future can see what they rejected. I want to look back at it myself once in a while to remind myself what was lost.





muratkayi said:


> That's right, that video in itself can't be a problem and it was a magnificent documentation of everything that's been going on...


Well, I guess you're right, so here it is:

​

To put this in context for anyone who didn't follow the discussions in the old thread, this is a brief summary of our suggestions:

openly allowing / encouraging users to create custom playback definition files
making it easy to deal with the definition files in both platforms (right now, editing these files is a much more convoluted process on Ipad than it is on Windows)
documenting the scripting language in detail
implementing a simple way of loading/changing xml playback rules in the UI (the instrument pop-up window would be a nice place, above or below the mixer settings)
fostering a community of users (a forum would be ideal), where these files could be shared, new techniques discussed, etc. There is a dedicated thread at the Dorico forum where users post custom expression maps for different libraries. It would be nice if we could do the same with Staffpad's playback definition files.



rsg22 said:


> For me, and this is just my opinion, I can live with the terrible handwriting recognition


Same here. Even if I can type music much faster in Sibelius or Dorico, there's something "atavistic" in using pen and paper that just makes me feel more comfortable and focused (maybe that's the price I have to pay for my classical training). Staffpad is the closest thing I've experienced on a computer so far, but there are still issues as exasperating as the playback problems.



Composer 2021 said:


> I think DWH is trying to keep in the good graces of Apple.


I agree. The fact that the original Windows version was implemented much freely in terms of user customization points in that direction.



Composer 2021 said:


> Maybe DWH is trying not to upset Apple by issuing a reply which echoes the EULA, and maybe the original thread’s deletion was a complete over-reaction.


Just to clarify, the thread was deleted by the mods on my request. I spent quite a bit of time on it, you know, but my conversation with DWH was very transparent on both ends, and he explicitly mentioned showing the xml code in a public forum as a breach of the EULA. I also didn't want to cause any problems to the mods here at vi-control. If you see that as a complete over-reaction it's ok with me, but even if I completely disagree with DWH, my respect for a developer will always be stronger than my disappointment.


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## servandus (Jan 20, 2022)

muratkayi said:


> You could also argue that calling what servandus did a breach of EULA by reverse engineering is a load of bullocks, because he did not even reverse engineer the software itself, but just figured out the rules of some open protocols (in order to repair a malfunctioning software to boot).


Yes, that is what I always thought. Reverse engineering is also prohibited in Steinberg's EULA, for example, but you can edit and create expression maps without any problem. DHW's point is that, unlike Dorico, Staffpad isn't advertised as having a configurable playback engine, and those xml files are therefore considered source files using a proprietary scripting language. I still don't see it that way, but...



muratkayi said:


> But all that is irrelevant, actually. At least in my opinion. Relevant is:
> - Staffpad does not care for user input
> - They want that whole community driven help and effort shut down
> - They will not mind any community modifications in further updates on the playback engine which might render every effort useless in the long run


I agree 100%. That's the saddest thing for me also.



Gil said:


> Making public some private things means big work: add an UI for the customization, take in account all the user can do and try not to mess with the playback or even worse make the app crashing, even if you demonstrate that articulation customization can be done, add application testing, beta testers, ...


You are a developer, so I can't really argue with you on that. All I can say is that, at least on Windows, you can write "Mary had a little Lamb" in the xml files and Staffpad will run perfectly fine, no crashes, no surprises. Only thing is it won't play "Mary had a little Lamb". For this to happen a little more R&D on AI would be needed 

As far as I can tell, those xml files are just bindings, and only affect playback. They behave exactly like expression maps. But I speak only based on my own experience. I'm not a developer and therefore I can't generalize.



Gil said:


> I began to test just the marcato articulation with the Berlin library and will share my results in a new thread in a few days, trying to provide solutions to problems, like a beginning of a database or a spreadsheet for a reference.


That might be of greater value right now for general users than my tutorial, Gil. I'll be happy to post in your thread, should I have something helpful to say.



mopsiflopsi said:


> I agree his response showed a strong lack of tactfulness.


It might seem so just because I only quoted the most objective, relevant paragraphs he wrote, but he was as firm as friendly in his reply. Just wanted to clarify that.



mopsiflopsi said:


> Re: DWH's priorities - after promising a very shiny new feature very publicly on an Apple event, they have probably been under intense pressure to deliver, damn everything else. Given the time it took (and continues to take) them, they probably underestimated the development challenges of these features.


I also think that is highly probable. But I also think that having no articulation lists (let alone how to trigger them in the score) after all this time, it's a clear sign that it's not only pressure that's playing a role here. It's a business strategy: new features to attract new customers comes first. They are doing that from the very beginning. I remember when the third party libraries frst came out, a lot of people were already bitterly complaining about the same handwriting recognition and notation issues we're still complaining about today. But yes, on top of that, surely Apple adds a lot of pressure in the development process.



Jett Hitt said:


> I won't debate the merits of StaffPad. I saw them instantly, and I invested in it--heavily.
> The potential of this app is momentous, but it is being completely undermined by wholesale neglect of the app's core function in favor of some drum loops and a cheap party trick that every DAW has been able to do for 20 years.


The frustration of those of us who have invested heavily in Staffpad (both financially and time-wise) is on another level, that's for sure.

See, when I used Staffpad for the very first time I loaded a string orchestra template for the Berlin Strings. I just wrote down some simple ideas, pressed play and thought: "holy shit, how is this even possible?". Well, it took less than a weekend for me to feel like a beta tester. In fact, I started a list with all the issues I was finding, and in just a few days I realized that it would take a ridiculous amount of time to report them all, so I started by reporting only the first one (many instruments in the woodwinds and brass sections of the Berlin Series wouldn't play because there was an issue in the download process). I got a generic reply that solved absolutely nothing. Then radio silence. It took months until they solved the problem and I could finally use the winds. I then looked at the list, smiled, and began my PhD in reverse engineering 🤣



muratkayi said:


> Let's do it!


See, at one point DWH wrote about how great the hundreds of tracks he receives everyday from Staffpad users sound. My wife was reading this and asked: "Has he listened to that epilectic bassoonist in your example?". Well, to say the truth, she's a professional flutist and never likes anything I show her, but in this case yes, I think that his talking about how great Staffpad mockups sound is kind of symptomatic. What he has achieved with Staffpad is absolutely insane, and the way he speaks about "his baby", made me realize that he won't take any inputs from users until he's done implementing his original vision (whatever it might be, whenever it happens). I very much like that in a way... but this time it goes fully against everything I want from the app.


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## muratkayi (Jan 20, 2022)

servandus said:


> Has he listened to that epilectic bassoonist in your example?"


😂😂💛


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 20, 2022)

servandus said:


> Missed that. Is the thread still there? What was it about?


I glanced back at the time frame, which was May 10 or so last year, but there are so many threads that I don't really know which one it was. His screen name was @workedintheory, and I can't even tag him now, so I guess he deleted it or whatever one does. In short, he jumped on one of the threads where we were expressing concern about the sale of StaffPad to Musescore. He blathered a bunch for a day or two and then deleted everything he said and sent us DMs. Mine is attached.





PS. Well I guess I can tag him after all, but it didn't pop up as an option.


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 20, 2022)

servandus said:


> At some point in the past I actually thought I was going to marry the girl  It's just that his father probably wanted a less picky, less independent son in law, and thought I would disgrace her and ruin her life, so he sent her away so that she could meet nicer candidates who wouldn't compromise the integrity of the family. I still feel tempted to date her in secret (she goes on wooing me, you know), but there's really no future. If only her father changed his mind...


This btw was priceless. I'm still laughing, even though part of me is crying.


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## MauroPantin (Jan 22, 2022)

Back from a short 2-week vacation, opened the thread in excitement...






I love StaffPad and writing with a pen, it feels very natural to me because of how I studied music in the first place. And it does sound great! It's too bad it could sound much better with such simple fixes and yet we have to endure some arbitrary timeline where these solutions are not a priority. Feels particularly frustrating because of just how easy to improve it seem to be.

I'll still keep using StaffPad for practice, quick input and rough audio drafts. The only thing that sucks a bit is that I then will likely have to jump somewhere else to get a mockup and do all the tech tweaking because of this entire legal conundrum.


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## Jacob Moss (Jan 25, 2022)

Yeah I agree, if tinkering with the playback engine is what one wants Dorico is the way to go. It's built upon the idea that users would develop a community for that sort of thing. Additionally it allows you to add as many libraries as you have available, which StaffPad will never allow users to do.


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## MadLad (Jan 25, 2022)

Jacob Moss said:


> Yeah I agree, if tinkering with the playback engine is what one wants Dorico is the way to go. It's built upon the idea that users would develop a community for that sort of thing. Additionally it allows you to add as many libraries as you have available, which StaffPad will never allow users to do.


Yeah, I really hope they'll improve playback, preferably with the help of the users. Right now, I'm using the BBCSO template and it's fine but nowhere near as good as the Staffpad playback. I heard Noteperformer is much better but I'll wait for version 4 because someone here mentioned they might update their VST library. It's not too bad but not that great, either judging from all the demos I've heard.


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