# Did the internet ruin music schools and teachers?



## ein fisch (Aug 2, 2018)

You can literally find everything you want in the web. You can learn theory, notation, orchestration, just whatever you like.

Did that have an impact on music teachers and schools? Did they make more money back when there was no youtube and all the other music tutorial sources?

Also, what is THAT thing what a teacher can give to you that the internet doesnt? I mean; for the social aspect you could search a band or other musicans to have fun with. And to ask questions you can use forums or chatrooms (id say there are some very experienced musicans on vi control)

I decided to make SAE (school of audio engineering) altough some guys told me it is not worth the money and also the paper is useless in the industry. But SAE has TOP equipment that i can use anytime, together with other students. And i just want to give it a try for the diploma, to do something new in my life. Right now im getting the money together for it

But id like to hear what you guys think are advantages, disadvantages etc in self teaching or buying lessons somewhere.

Cheers
And have a blessed day
Fisch


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 2, 2018)

Just because all the information is available, it doesn't mean that it's properly processed. I find that learning without competent guidance is very difficult and in most cases doesn't work.


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## MatFluor (Aug 2, 2018)

The internet has tons of stuff and you can essentially learn everything without meeting another person.

I'm currently studying EIS - apart from it being a different way for music theory, the main advantage is that mentorship/teacher thing. The thing that isn't on the internet -> direct critique and advice from an industry professional, tailored to my personal questions and needs. So - if I had the choice between autodidact stuff and a big music school - I go sel f-learning. If I have the choice between self-learning and 1-on-1 teaching, I go with the teaching - because the personal experience and "care" the person gives is worth more than money. Even the possiblity to work with the best equipment won't give me that - rather, the mentor used shitty equipment too, and he knows how to make that stuff really shine without relying on the shiny $20k MIDAS mixing desk


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## muk (Aug 2, 2018)

You probably could find all of the necessary information to learn something on the internet. But in my experience it doesn't work. I don't know a single person who learned to play an instrument at an advanced level without taking lessons. Probably you can learn the basics by yourself, but after that you need proper training. I think it is both a question of discipline, and getting individualized feedback and advice. Something the internet can't provide. It's the same for orchestration/theory/musicology/whatever. The internet is a great resource for research if you already have the knowledge, and it is good to learn the basics. But anything more than that, in my experience you need proper tutelage.


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## Dewdman42 (Aug 2, 2018)

On the other hand independent study may lead to new creativity


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## Quasar (Aug 2, 2018)

I think this is a terribly interesting question. I would like to learn synthesis rather than mainly use presets, and have just recently been wondering whether Syntorial would do much of anything for me that I can't find for free on the web. (The obvious answer in this case is to try their free demos, which I plan to.)

There are two distinct questions contained within the single question:
1) Is all of the info out there for free that well-presented for-pay tutorials have?
2) Even if it all is out there for free, does enrolling in formal, for pay courses "frame" and organize the learning experience to make the attainment of competency or mastery more likely?

Much of course varies dramatically from individual to individual, as we all learn differently etc. So there probably isn't a single right answer.

I haven't found anything on YouTube that has the organizational depth and step-by-step detail as Alain Mayrand's Orchestrating the Line... But maybe it's there and I just haven't found it.


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## Erik (Aug 2, 2018)

muk said:


> You probably could find all of the necessary information to learn something on the internet. But in my experience it doesn't work. I don't know a single person who learned to play an instrument at an advanced level without taking lessons. Probably you can learn the basics by yourself, but after that you need proper training. I think it is both a question of discipline, and getting individualized feedback and advice. Something the internet can't provide. It's the same for orchestration/theory/musicology/whatever. The internet is a great resource for research if you already have the knowledge, and it is good to learn the basics. But anything more than that, in my experience you need proper tutelage.



If the start isn't monitored by an experienced teacher it could ruin and slow down success later on. The first steps are so important: with a bad technique most pieces are just unplayable in the end. But OK, if you don't need too much, then it is fine. But if you're eager to raise the bar one should have proper lessons.


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## dtcomposer (Aug 2, 2018)

I think a personalized theory/composition teacher can be incredibly valuable. But you can even get that online now haha. There is something to be said for being taught by somebody who was taught by Stravinsky (or whoever) and is an expert at orchestration, instrumentation, development, harmony, counterpoint etc. There is a certain level of experience and breadth of knowledge that you might not get from joe blow internet tutor. But there's nothing stopping people from learning just about everything from online sources. I'd say that what you learn in a theory course in say a university setting (having taught the theory cycle for several years) can definitely be learned online at this point. Sometimes it's nice to have the structure and certainty of an expert to grade/guide you though depending on what kind of learner you are.

When I was studying vocal performance I remember vividly how much better I got under my second teacher as opposed to my first. The second one had toured extensively in Europe and just had many more tools to help me unlock my vocal potential. I think the same can be said for composition/theory teachers. Once you have a base level of knowledge/ability I think independent study is much more useful. That's what music professors basically do after they get their degrees anyway.


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## Desire Inspires (Aug 2, 2018)

ein fisch said:


> I decided to make SAE (school of audio engineering) altough some guys told me it is not worth the money and also the paper is useless in the industry. But SAE has TOP equipment that i can use anytime, together with other students. And i just want to give it a try for the diploma, to do something new in my life. Right now im getting the money together for it



Forget SAE. Use that money and learn how to trade stocks. Get into real estate. Anything but waste money to play with equipment.


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## ein fisch (Aug 2, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> Forget SAE. Use that money and learn how to trade stocks. Get into real estate. Anything but waste money to play with equipment.


Thanks for your input. Sadly no one could name anything better for my situation and i want to - atleast for this one time in my life - proper education in audio engineering.

Im have good self-discipline and can learn for myself whole nights and days. BUT as others mentioned, im missing structure. There are gaps that need to be filled,which i maybe forgot about. And for all the topics i know already i see it as some repetition. Second thing im missing is the social aspect, having people around me while learning.

I agree with you.. 26k is alot of money for 2 years. But i still didnt hear of anything better to spend my money on. So i will just do what im able to. Using that money to learn things i do not care about seems more like a waste for me. (I know i could just learn about IT network stuff and get better jobs.. but aside that it feels like a waste of life)


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## Olfirf (Aug 2, 2018)

ein fisch said:


> You can literally find everything you want in the web. You can learn theory, notation, orchestration, just whatever you like.
> 
> Did that have an impact on music teachers and schools? Did they make more money back when there was no youtube and all the other music tutorial sources?
> 
> ...


Self teaching is fine, as soon as you have a basis to decide what the good stuff and what the bad stuff is! That is the problem with the internet. It is also way more difficult to motivate yourself to do the learning without a structure provided by an experienced teacher.
I would not recommend commercial programs like SAE. There goal is to earn money regardless of how the chances of their students are to actually earn money later. That is why they will admit everyone to their program regardless of talent and chances. They also have way more experience with the technical aspect and the courses for composition they offer are highly questionable. Since you seem to be German: education is free in your country! You will have to pass a test of course for studying composition, but that will also be a good indicator wether you are up for the challenge! In case you are not ready for that, I would rather recommend to take private lesson with teachers. You have to find them, of course, but they will cost you a lot less than SAE, because they can lead you in your self study (the right books, some homework, etc). After a few lessons you will quickly see, if it works. If it does not work out, change the teacher ...
Depending on your current abilities, they can prepare you for a test in a music conservatory in 1-2 years. Then you won't have to pay for your education any more. For the technical aspects private courses like SAE might be ok, but it is way overpriced for what you can learn. Try to get an intern ship and learn by doing stuff (recording, mixing etc). No expensive equipment necessary to do the learning.


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## robgb (Aug 2, 2018)

ein fisch said:


> You can literally find everything you want in the web. You can learn theory, notation, orchestration, just whatever you like.


For as long as I've been alive, you've been able to learn all of these things by simply visiting your local library or bookstore.


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## robgb (Aug 2, 2018)

ein fisch said:


> I agree with you.. 26k is alot of money for 2 years.


Twenty-six thousand to learn audio engineering? I think you'd be better off checking out the tutorials on Youtube. I mean, seriously, that's a lot of money that will be difficult to make back as an audio engineer. Why do you think so many audio engineers are now offering online tutorials, etc?


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## dzilizzi (Aug 2, 2018)

Take it from someone who has paid a lot of money to trade schools for a useless piece of paper. $26K is too much for something that you would better learn as an assistant, unless it gives you a bachelors degree. You will come out not knowing much more than you could learn online, with no gear to practice on, and find the industry has changed from what they taught you and you know almost nothing. Plus, unless they actually get you a job in the industry? Yeah, good luck. 

I have been taking classes in studio production at the local community college. They don't have a lot of fancy equipment (cheese-grater Macs with ProTools 9) My instructor works in the industry except the one night a week he teaches. But he teaches the same stuff you would learn at a place like SAE. And? I hear the same stuff he teaches on Groove3, PureMix, and other online tutorial places. The good part is he is there to ask questions. However, there are also great forums like this one where people are very happy to answer your questions if you are willing to learn. 

You'd be better off spending the money on equipment and a subscription to a few of these great learning sites. PureMix has a bunch of free classes. And they provide stems on a number of their paid classes so you can follow along on your computer. 

As to the online vs in person training? If you aren't self-motivated, you might want a live teacher, as they will make you work. And you have to show up at a set time and day for a set amount of hours.


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## Desire Inspires (Aug 2, 2018)

Hell, I’d just beg an audio engineer to hire me as an unpaid assistant and learn everything I could by actually working for a year. I’d use that $26K to pay for my living expenses while I worked and learned.


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## robgb (Aug 2, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> Hell, I’d just beg an audio engineer to hire me as an unpaid assistant and learn everything I could by actually working for a year. I’d use that $26K to pay for my living expenses while I worked and learned.


Best idea of all.


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## JJP (Aug 2, 2018)

You can find all the information you need to perform surgery on the internet too, but I'm still not going to let you remove my appendix. 

One of the great problems of the internet is that it causes may people to mistake information for education. @robgb 's library analogy is spot on.

When selecting a place for you education, DO NOT base your decision on which school has the latest gear. That tells you nothing about the quality of instruction. What you need at a beginning level is a good foundation in basic principles of sound and engineering. Those principles are the same regardless of the modernity of the equipment. 

In fact, you can often get a more solid education by starting out with basic materials than with complex, fancy things. That's because basic materials force you to understand the concepts which make them function. Mastery of those concepts then makes it easy for you to move up to more complicated settings. (The same is true for sample libraries.)


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## NYC Composer (Aug 2, 2018)

I took piano, violin and a few guitar lessons. I played violin and viola in my high school orchestra, piano in my high school jazz band, sang in my high school chorus, played guitar and bass in my college big band. One thing I think is missing in a lot of self taught music is the opportunity to play charts with a bunch of other people. Computers are great, but a buncha musicians are even greater.


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## Desire Inspires (Mar 8, 2019)

ein fisch said:


> Thanks for your input. Sadly no one could name anything better for my situation and i want to - atleast for this one time in my life - proper education in audio engineering.
> 
> Im have good self-discipline and can learn for myself whole nights and days. BUT as others mentioned, im missing structure. There are gaps that need to be filled,which i maybe forgot about. And for all the topics i know already i see it as some repetition. Second thing im missing is the social aspect, having people around me while learning.
> 
> I agree with you.. 26k is alot of money for 2 years. But i still didnt hear of anything better to spend my money on. So i will just do what im able to. Using that money to learn things i do not care about seems more like a waste for me. (I know i could just learn about IT network stuff and get better jobs.. but aside that it feels like a waste of life)



So did you start your schooling yet?


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 9, 2019)

I was self-taught...but that's why it took me longer to progress. I had to do everything the hard way, and that approach fails hard when it does fail.

It's kind of like high school algebra, where the teacher isn't asking to see your actual formulations because he or she is a pain in zee rectum, but because it's the best way for you to learn. The mechanics of composition, orchestration, arranging...it's probably best to have at least a guide/copy editor, or see if you can get something helpful from sharing your music on forums like this.

What I mean is, your feedback in regard to your compositions, if hermetically sealed, is going to be necessarily inadequate.

Just my opinion, and I'm sure I've been wrong on this point through many examples over the centuries. This is just what happened to me. Once I got together with an experienced producer I started actively fixing my bad habits and took a huge leap forward in my writing.


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## Saxer (Mar 9, 2019)

Theoretically you can learn everything from the web. But what you can't get there is mainly three things:

- It doesn't show you what you don't know but should know
- It doesn't show you the mistakes you make and correct them
- It doesn't connect you to a group of interactive real people

And there's nobody to motivate you to keep going if things get harder. Sometimes you need somebody to show you where you practise the wrong things.

And you need someone to open new doors for you to explore new rooms you didn't know they even exist.


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## Akarin (Mar 9, 2019)

I'm a teacher. Programming, not music. But I think it's the same problematic: even though everything about programming is available for free on the web, the hardest for a new learner is to know what he doesn't know. That's what a teacher guidance is for, mostly. And then to correct bad habits early on so they don't impact the learning journey ahead. The Uni I work for is experimenting a lot with online courses and that is what I do today: record my courses but have one-on-one chats with students weekly. Best of both worlds.


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## ein fisch (Mar 9, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> So did you start your schooling yet?


Interesting to see this thread after half a year again.
No, i focus on actually doing things atm and invest the money into my studio.
I attend literally every free workshop that SAE offers and try to connect with the other students there to get the connections anyway. And i also were able to take part in 2 mixing sessions from students from there and take some notes.

Right now, after every song i take a lesson from a pretty good producer which produced for some well known names in switzerland and get his criticism and then learn from that


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 9, 2019)

It could be argued that MTV had a lot to do with it. All you needed was to be young, at least acceptably good-looking, hook up with someone like William Morris.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 9, 2019)

It astonishes me when I talk to younger people and they find it fascinating how videos didn't exist when I was a young dude. I mean, you had the occasional like Queen. But most of us got our music by radio, vinyl, cassette.

There's something privately wonderful about hearing a song first without seeing the video. Really, kids.


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## AllanH (Mar 9, 2019)

This is really an interesting thread. I think a big challenge with being self-taught is that it's easy to waste a fair bit of time pursuing ideas that are just "poor".

Music seems to simple: writing music is just hitting keys on the keyboard and the engineering parts are just a matter of loading plugins and fiddling a bit with the settings. Of course, it's not that simple. To me, education is about understanding how how far away the horizon is, what the possibilities are, and then learning some of the techniques to improve.

Local community colleges generally often inexpensive classes that can get give you a sense of the field. That's where I'd start.


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## jbuhler (Mar 9, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> It astonishes me when I talk to younger people and they find it fascinating how videos didn't exist when I was a young dude. I mean, you had the occasional like Queen. But most of us got our music by radio, vinyl, cassette.
> 
> There's something privately wonderful about hearing a song first without seeing the video. Really, kids.


How old are you? By 1982, when I was a senior in high school, MTV was already ubiquitous and changing the playlists of top 40 radio. Then sometime after I graduated from college and stopped listening to lots of pop music, MTV shifted away from playing videos, so videos mostly disappeared again until the appearance of YouTube. By the late 1980s, I had shifted from vinyl to CDs as the basis for my music collection.


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## JohnG (Mar 9, 2019)

Really I don't know how anyone can really learn music without access to players -- really GOOD players. 

I did learn some things from university classes I took writing material for people to perform and seeing how they did with it. But the problem with that is that the players are not at the level you find in studios -- London, Los Angeles, Nashville etc. So the result is that those experiences can teach one to be far too conservative; to write very easy-to-play material, knowing that there will be zero time for rehearsal.

*Need the Pros*

Consequently, I sort of learned "all wrong" from the university classes. So for me, finally, the best learning by far came from orchestrating for cartoons in the 1990s for Warner Brothers and Disney etc. Having top studio players execute your material was an education like no other, and I don't know how anyone gets to do that at a young age anymore.

*Alternatives?*

The closest analogue is to look at scores. Just the string parts alone in Wagner -- I would never write something that hard if the only experience I had was from school. Or just about any of John Williams' scores. It's not impossible, but a lot of it is pretty challenging -- range, tempo, lots o' notes.

However you do it, music is a lifetime of trying and continual learning.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 9, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> How old are you? By 1982, when I was a senior in high school, MTV was already ubiquitous and changing the playlists of top 40 radio. Then sometime after I graduated from college and stopped listening to lots of pop music, MTV shifted away from playing videos, so videos mostly disappeared again until the appearance of YouTube. By the late 1980s, I had shifted from vinyl to CDs as the basis for my music collection.



My elementary school years were during the 70s. No MTV, and videos were often movies "Song Remains the Same" "Dark Side of the Moon" (not much a fan of either the music or movies, just examples).

I didn't start buying CDs until the 90s, they were considered to be a bit highbrow and budget for starving musicians in the 80s (at least, where I lived in the 80s). I had a TON of cassettes and vinyl, wish I had the vinyl today.


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## AllanH (Mar 9, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Really I don't know how anyone can really learn music without access to players -- really GOOD players.
> ...



I would love to experience having my music played by good players.


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## JohnG (Mar 9, 2019)

AllanH said:


> I would love to experience having my music played by good players.



There are quite a few good orchestras that work remotely now. It's up to the individual of course but it's one way to try to learn.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 9, 2019)

JohnG said:


> There are quite a few good orchestras that work remotely now. It's up to the individual of course but it's one way to try to learn.



I have a fan who is a rather important person to the Slovenská Filharmónia, so I get great deals when I need recordings done, all online. I'm pretty sure they're pretty reasonable on prices in genereal, so I must strongly recommend them for projects.


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## jbuhler (Mar 9, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> My elementary school years were during the 70s. No MTV, and videos were often movies "Song Remains the Same" "Dark Side of the Moon" (not much a fan of either the music or movies, just examples).
> 
> I didn't start buying CDs until the 90s, they were considered to be a bit highbrow and budget for starving musicians in the 80s (at least, where I lived in the 80s). I had a TON of cassettes and vinyl, wish I had the vinyl today.


We're roughly the same age I guess. Must not forget those priceless appearances on American Bandstand and what not. Also CDs sounded pretty harsh until they improved the digital to analog converters in the consumer machines. At least that's what I recall. But CDs were a godsend for teaching because they offered some degree of random access (compared to cassettes) and were far more robust than vinyl. Digital files were even a better improvement for teaching, and it's one reason I have so little nostalgia for vinyl. (The other is that I had long experience dealing with very shitty vinyl pressings.)


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 9, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> We're roughly the same age I guess. Must not forget those priceless appearances on American Bandstand and what not. Also CDs sounded pretty harsh until they improved the digital to analog converters in the consumer machines. At least that's what I recall. But CDs were a godsend for teaching because they offered some degree of random access (compared to cassettes) and were far more robust than vinyl. Digital files were even a better improvement for teaching, and it's one reason I have so little nostalgia for vinyl. (The other is that I had long experience dealing with very shitty vinyl pressings.)



The random access part is sooo great. This is coming from someone who used to turn vinyl speed way down just to learn guitar parts to songs back in the day


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 9, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> We're roughly the same age I guess. Must not forget those priceless appearances on American Bandstand and what not. Also CDs sounded pretty harsh until they improved the digital to analog converters in the consumer machines. At least that's what I recall. But CDs were a godsend for teaching because they offered some degree of random access (compared to cassettes) and were far more robust than vinyl. Digital files were even a better improvement for teaching, and it's one reason I have so little nostalgia for vinyl. (The other is that I had long experience dealing with very shitty vinyl pressings.)



Wait...Don Kirchner's Rock Concert! Flaaaashback!!!


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## jonathanparham (Mar 9, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> I have a fan who is a rather important person to the Slovenská Filharmónia, so I get great deals when I need recordings done, all online. I'm pretty sure they're pretty reasonable on prices in genereal, so I must strongly recommend them for projects.


Have you listed your contact on the Remote Recordings thread?


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## AllanH (Mar 9, 2019)

JohnG said:


> There are quite a few good orchestras that work remotely now. It's up to the individual of course but it's one way to try to learn.


At some point, that would be fun to try. I already feel sorry for the orchestra


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 10, 2019)

AllanH said:


> This is really an interesting thread. I think a big challenge with being self-taught is that it's easy to waste a fair bit of time pursuing ideas that are just "poor".



You have to have a mountain of motivation (of course, natural talent and/or a super generous patron are a biiiiiiiiiiig help), but hey I did it and so could anyone imo!

That said oh hell YEAH self-teaching hurt me in some ways. As @AllanH intimated, it's way too easy to begin and reinforce bad habits without access to someone in the real world whom can point out your recurring boo-boos.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 10, 2019)

I’ve been making it up as I went along for over 50 years. I’m not saying that’s GOOD, mind you, but I did stay employed


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 10, 2019)

NYC Composer said:


> I’ve been making it up as I went along for over 50 years. I’m not saying that’s GOOD, mind you, but I did stay employed



But there are good things about that approach too, huh


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 10, 2019)

I should mention...in my graduate year I asked myself if music really was what I wanted to do in life. 

I lay down with Beethoven's 9th and headphones and knew. The very first movement is this Heavy Metal, proto-Wagner show of absolute might...to this day I get chills just thinking of those riffs (  ).

I feel music so much, especially wonderful music, and part of that feeling is one of potential for creation. I feel like I have my own voice to share, and that's important to me if not for anyone else. 

But...

yeah, what @NYC Composer said X1000.


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## jononotbono (Mar 10, 2019)

Meeting people is the most valuable thing I have personally gained from studying at music schools.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 10, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> Meeting people is the most valuable thing I have personally gained from studying at music schools.


From a business standpoint, relationships are paramount, and you have a great attitude. The Force is strong in you.

y


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 10, 2019)

NYC Composer said:


> From a business standpoint, relationships are paramount, and you have a great attitude. The Force is strong in you.
> 
> y



Aye.


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## JohnG (Mar 10, 2019)

NYC Composer said:


> you have a great attitude



You're right about Jono. Luckily, there is still room for fussbudget nincompoops.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 10, 2019)

JohnG said:


> You're right about Jono. Luckily, there is still room for fussbudget nincompoops.



..and faux erudite old blowhards (ahem)


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 10, 2019)

NYC Composer said:


> ..and faux erudite old blowhards (ahem)



What a relief!


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## Rodney Money (Mar 11, 2019)

ein fisch said:


> You can literally find everything you want in the web. You can learn theory, notation, orchestration, just whatever you like.
> 
> Did that have an impact on music teachers and schools? Did they make more money back when there was no youtube and all the other music tutorial sources?
> 
> Also, what is THAT thing what a teacher can give to you that the internet doesn't?


I did not go to college to major in music to learn theory, notation, orchestrations, or even how to compose, etc. I was literally bored in all 7 of my music theory and aural skill classes. I learned chords, part writing, and voice leading by studying hymns as a teenager, learned notation by playing an instrument ever since 6th grade, learned orchestration by playing in various ensembles and studying scores paying attention to the role of each instrument and how to write for them idiomatically, and I did all of this before I even knew what the internet was.

So why did I go to college? Opportunities. To meet Phil Smith, Arturo Sandoval, Wynton Marsalis, T.S. Monk, private lessons with professional published composers Scott Meister and Bill Harbinson, extra lessons with composers David Maslanka and Eric Whitacre, opportunity to work in 2 professional studios anytime I wanted, conducted, and composed music for every type of soloist and ensemble imaginable at a professional level, learned how to engrave music properly, received professional recordings of my compositions so publishers would publish my works after I graduated, networked with professional musicians and future professional musicians who have kept me in commissions since I graduated college (having a trumpet concerto premier this April for example,) and the most important impact college had in my life? Meeting Dr. Bill Jones who is secretly possibly the greatest trumpet player, teacher, and brass instrument builder on the planet (he builds instruments for players of the Chicago Symphony.) Not only is he a wonderful person, he also has every professional contact imaginable, and is open to share his knowledge and expertise. It's kind of like having a personal "concert orchestral and choral Hans Zimmer" (trying to put it in perspective) with his phone number and Facebook Messenger. One of our last conversations was literally, "Dr. Jones on an Eb trumpet can I feel free to write to the high C like I do on a Bb or C?" Dr. Jones, "Unless one has a F above high C on a Bb I would avoid writing a high C but concert high Bb is a lot easier on an Eb than a Bb. Also Rodney, do you mind arranging your 6th movement of your concerto for trumpet and vocalist? I have a friend who is the perfect mixture of Sarah Brightman and Enya, and we would like to perform your piece at the next brass chamber music conference." You can't find that on the internet. 

That's the impact my school and my music teachers had on me.


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## The Darris (Mar 11, 2019)

Don't go to school to learn "how" to compose or write, or theory, or any of that. Go to school to meet musicians and other composers and learn how to collaborate and inspire each other. That is how you build a better community and create opportunities not only for yourself, but for others as well.


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## ein fisch (Mar 11, 2019)

The Darris said:


> Don't go to school to learn "how" to compose or write, or theory, or any of that. Go to school to meet musicians and other composers and learn how to collaborate and inspire each other. That is how you build a better community and create opportunities not only for yourself, but for others as well.


This, but you can also do that without going to music school. Just hit up every person in real life that does music (even if its a street musician), or could have something to do with music. Go to concerts and talk to the people when they're done. get to know them. and their friends at some point (mixing engineers, recording engineers they've had).. this way you can network pretty much as easy as if you were attending a music school.. its a bit more of an effort but im sure it pays out at the end

and of course dont forget to care about your own music (or whatever your profession is) aside of that


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## MatFluor (Mar 11, 2019)

ein fisch said:


> This, but you can also do that without going to music school. Just hit up every person in real life that does music (even if its a street musician), or could have something to do with music. Go to concerts and talk to the people when they're done. get to know them. and their friends at some point (mixing engineers, recording engineers they've had).. this way you can network pretty much as easy as if you were attending a music school.. its a bit more of an effort but im sure it pays out at the end
> 
> and of course dont forget to care about your own music (or whatever your profession is) aside of that



Just don't be the obnoxious guy that goes around and introduces himself to everybody like "Hey, good gig, I'm a producer!" like a sleazy vacuum salesman...


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 11, 2019)

I'll never regret getting my master's in music. Impossible. To this day it saves me eons of time.

But hey, whatever works for you!


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## muk (Mar 11, 2019)

Everything I know about music I learned from an awesome piano teacher, and a university professor of unbelievable knowledge. Actually it would also be true to say that I had to learn everything myself. Because I had to. It took countless hours of reading, listening to music, analyzing scores, practicing the piano, writing essays. All of this I had to do myself. Nobody can ever do that for you. But it was these two teachers who showed me the never exhaustible abundance of what there is to learn, and how I could learn the aspects of it that interested me. They couldn't do the learning for me, but they could explain intricacies and insights of music that I never had known where there. A good teacher shows you how to learn. And this you most definitely won't learn on the internet.

Certainly you can make connections at school or university. You can even find friends. But at least for me, the social component was by far not the only thing school and university had to offer.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 11, 2019)

The social thing for me was mostly just being in the right place and getting the right musicians at the right time. I cannot stress enough how important it can be to make sure the people performing your music are doing so the way you want. It is seriously hard work when it comes to making this happen with an orchestra of musicians (sometimes especially when it's a remote recording).

But hey, I've been remote for over six years now, so the social thing is partly over for me (and good riddance, with a small proviso): 

I abandoned the being-there-in-the-world/FB/Twitter etc. thing because none of the people whom heard and knew me for indie film stuff and Rock music would listen to my most important music (my non-commissioned work). I was given negative, indifferent feedback...impossible. 

So I started just posting news about my commissions and where to buy my music. In other words, I for the most part basically divorced FB, etc. Because of that, I wrote what I wanted to write SO much happier and better. Not caring about what anyone thinks but myself made me into more of a contented, fulfilled artist-type, I guess. Sounds kinda corny, but there it is.

Now, this is an extreme less-travelled approach, not one I would especially recommend.


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## ein fisch (Mar 11, 2019)

MatFluor said:


> Just don't be the obnoxious guy that goes around and introduces himself to everybody like "Hey, good gig, I'm a producer!" like a sleazy vacuum salesman...


Except that i start talking about me and my music stuff rightaway its pretty much what i do. What would you do different than that?


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## kitekrazy (Mar 11, 2019)

I think when it comes to well known people, their training background is often hidden.


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## Rodney Money (Mar 11, 2019)

ein fisch said:


> Except that i start talking about me and my music stuff rightaway its pretty much what i do. What would you do different than that?


I am interested in knowing more about this. Let’s say you went to one of my concerts and you liked what you heard. How and what would you say to me afterwards?


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## ein fisch (Mar 12, 2019)

Rodney Money said:


> I am interested in knowing more about this. Let’s say you went to one of my concerts and you liked what you heard. How and what would you say to me afterwards?


Im far from that point where i overcame that anxiety to just hit you up as if it was nothing. A mixing/recording engineer which i know gets all his connections that way and it seems to work, he makes a living from it and is super confident about it.

To answer your question: if i woulf hit you up, it can be assumed i liked your music, and therefore would want to know more about you and your sight on music in the first place and get your social media links afterwards to follow you online. I don't hit you up out of the motivation "i need something from you".. its more of a "i want to know more about you"..

But i honestly do not know if its the right way. I just thought its better than sitting at home and doing nothing


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## mikeh-375 (Mar 12, 2019)

Some of you might have picked up on the fact that I believe in training.. However, I also believe that if you are of the right disposition, you can, and in fact _have to_, learn on your own, but it is a risk going completely solo - some guidance in the initial year or three would definitely be advisable for beginners. If you have a belief, ability and the wits to see it through, there is no reason imv why you need to pay for a course in octatonic whatevers when it is easy to create your own scales, derive melody and harmony and find your inner voice. To do that though, you must learn a few principles and then learn how to bend them to your whim over time with practice and as always with technique, apply imagination and invention.

What is not in doubt is that learning (as much as is possible) is a gateway to seeing and exploiting more possibilities in your creativity if you are orchestrally/classically bound. The internet can be of benefit imv, but only if you yourself are good enough to absorb what you need and then go beyond it with self reliance, commitment, ability and intelligence.
I'm only considering actual composing here, the benefits of a uni/academy education are clearly more advantageous in many other ways...in my day it was subsidised booze in the students bar that was the clear winner....


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 12, 2019)

mikeh-375 said:


> The internet can be of benefit imv, but only if you yourself are good enough to get beyond it with self reliance, commitment, ability and intelligence...the benefits of a uni/academy education are clearly more advantageous in many other ways...in my day it was subsidised booze in the students bar that was the clear winner....



Well, that's what college is for, right? 




mikeh-375 said:


> Some of you might have picked up on the fact that I believe in training.. However, I also believe that if you are of the right disposition, you can, and in fact _have to_, learn on your own, but it is a risk - some guidance in the initial year or three would definitely be advisable for beginners. If you have a belief, ability and the wits to see it through, there is no reason imv why you need to pay for a course in octatonic whatevers when it is easy to create your own scales, derive melody and harmony and find your inner voice. To do that though, you must learn a few principles and then learn how to bend them to your whim over time with practice and as always with technique, apply imagination and invention.





mikeh-375 said:


> What is not in doubt is that learning (as much as is possible) is a gateway to seeing and exploiting more possibilities in your creativity if you are orchestrally/classically bound.


​This is very cool, I like the _way_ Mike put it as much as the advice itself. It does take one hell of a lot of self-motivation to learn on your own...everything about composing on computers I had to teach myself (heck, I graduated back in 1988! Yeah, I'm old as hell). Of course, as most people know here, back "in the day" the idea of doing what we do here on computers was a sort of sci-fi idea, at least for folks like me. It was all paper and pencil for us at the time. 

The time came when I had to learn everything I could about Cubase, midi instrumentation, remote work, etc. And at the time I was just becoming blown away by the technology, and I was severely intimidated (I hated computers growing up...anyone remember the Commodore 64?  ).

I kept getting frustrated with the (Ozzy voice): "space age shit", but eventually, with hyperattentive absorption of the materials I had at hand, things became less Greek. And eventually I snapped it up (of course, there's been PLENTY of things to learn since then and today). 

Sometimes a person has to find that desire in his or her heart and own it; to look at oneself in the mirror and say "I am completely here and going for this, I am in it with all my heart and mind and completely unstoppable". It might look rawther histrionic here, but it worked for me. And trust me, I had to repeat something very similar when I finally got around to studying synths lol! It was a WHOLE lot of work all around, and again I must mention how easy it is to pick up bad habits without a physical teacher.

The pay off is extraordinary and ongoing...you'll use your tools so many times you'll lose count. It just depends on how much you love it, I guess (or, to be realistic as possible, how much of zee moolah you plan on scooping).​


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## MatFluor (Mar 12, 2019)

ein fisch said:


> To answer your question: if i woulf hit you up, it can be assumed i liked your music, and therefore would want to know more about you and your sight on music in the first place and get your social media links afterwards to follow you online. I don't hit you up out of the motivation "i need something from you".. its more of a "i want to know more about you"..



That's the right mindset - the obnoxious guy I mentioned is just force-feeding their service to you. Had enough of those guys come to me after a concert with the only goal to sell themselves to me.

Going out there and meeting people seems to be very beneficial - it's all about relationships. Ideally you want an ongoing relationship with the people, and not a "one off" engagement.

I didn't study music, but other fields - and from there I can say that the conferences are not about learning, but about networking. A ton of those have dinners and lunch, and you often see people not attending the talks and go straight to the social stuff, learning about each other's research and project and pave the way for future collaboration. That way I got to work for a high prestige project in my non-music field.

In my opinion, studying or any kind of education is vital - but music is one of those fields where you can go far without that - but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't - any kind of education is good for you - but it doesn't guarantee you an income. Same as here in Switzerland there is a film scoring school that takes in 5-7 students each year. High quality education, a lot of time spend with instrumentalists and recording orchestras of various sizes. The main benefit? Getting to know filmmakers (in the same building) and instrumentalists (also in the same building) since also "outsourcing" work is strongly discouraged, you work with many people inside this house, building future relationships. Yes, you learn a ton considering composition and are competitive in that area afterwards, but I mean - when you need a live cello for a score - who are you gonna call? Some random cellist on fiverr, or "that cool guy with whom I recorded that short film and drank a nice beer after the session"?


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## MartinH. (Mar 12, 2019)

ein fisch said:


> Im far from that point where i overcame that anxiety to just hit you up as if it was nothing. A mixing/recording engineer which i know gets all his connections that way and it seems to work, he makes a living from it and is super confident about it.
> 
> To answer your question: if i woulf hit you up, it can be assumed i liked your music, and therefore would want to know more about you and your sight on music in the first place and get your social media links afterwards to follow you online. I don't hit you up out of the motivation "i need something from you".. its more of a "i want to know more about you"..
> 
> But i honestly do not know if its the right way. I just thought its better than sitting at home and doing nothing



You might by interested in the Mike Verta class on "business". 
https://mikeverta.com/product/online-masterclass-the-business/


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