# Long durations on brass



## akhill jain (Mar 23, 2021)

I have been studying about orchestrating the brass section and as an exercise I thought of doing a homophonic exercise just on horns. It turned out to be 3 mins long. It's slow in tempo with just long chords. Even though it's just an exercise, I was curious about if it would be ideal in real scenario for horn players to play for this long continuously?


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## boinzy (Mar 23, 2021)

I mean, do you give them time to breathe?


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## akhill jain (Mar 23, 2021)

boinzy said:


> I mean, do you give them time to breathe?


Yep


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## Daryl (Mar 24, 2021)

It is all dependant on dynamic and pitch.


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## akhill jain (Mar 24, 2021)

Daryl said:


> It is all dependant on dynamic and pitch.


@Daryl Thank you so much sir! 😊


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## wilifordmusic (Mar 24, 2021)

You would probably be best served by putting two players per voice and staggering them for breathing and short breaks. Perhaps 1 player for 2-8 bars alternating (tempo dependent) and then doubling them only on louder moments. 
Extreme dynamics and range, very soft or very loud can also be challenging for your musicians. Things written within the range of the staff that your musician is reading is generally the most forgiving. The more ledger lines the greater the dangers.
And yes, there is a pretty big difference between even a good amateur musician and a person who plays for a living.

While your musicians happiness may not seem important to your musical vision, it will make a big difference in the end product as well as their interest in playing for you again.
When in doubt, ask a player of the instrument you are writing for.

When I played trumpet for a living, there were certain composers/orchestrators that I politely declined to work for because of their consistent disregard for what was physically possible with a trumpet.

I was not alone.


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## akhill jain (Mar 24, 2021)

wilifordmusic said:


> You would probably be best served by putting two players per voice and staggering them for breathing and short breaks. Perhaps 1 player for 2-8 bars alternating (tempo dependent) and then doubling them only on louder moments.
> Extreme dynamics and range, very soft or very loud can also be challenging for your musicians. Things written within the range of the staff that your musician is reading is generally the most forgiving. The more ledger lines the greater the dangers.
> And yes, there is a pretty big difference between even a good amateur musician and a person who plays for a living.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much! It's really insightful.


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## akhill jain (Mar 25, 2021)

How often does/ can circular breathing come into play?


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## wilifordmusic (Mar 25, 2021)

In my experience, very rarely. It is used more as a theatrical bit on stage rather than a practical technique that would be used in a studio. You would be better served staggering the phrases within instrument sections (horns, trombones, etc..) and indicating preferred breath marks or phrasing in each players part to ensure constant sound.

And remember, the bigger the instrument the shorter the phrase. Big mouthpiece=big air.
If you can't sing it at a moderately loud dynamic, they probably can't play it.

To ensure maximum playability and maximum musician cooperation, make it clear what your musical goal is and show willingness to adjust the phrasing if it is necessary to make it work.


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## cmillar (Mar 25, 2021)

I play trombone as well as compose.

Questions to ask yourself:
- what is the range of the note for the particular brass instruments?
Low notes use much more air than higher notes
High notes can be strenuous, and rest is needed
Soft note can be scary to play if ppp or softer; you need excellent players to sneak in quietly even if they are staggered breathing

Bass trombone uses much more air than a tenor trombone
Tuba uses a lot of air


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## cmillar (Mar 25, 2021)

But...here's a true story about an exceptional musician....

My trombone teacher, the late Dave Robbins, used to be a heavyweight LA studio player in the 1950's and lead trombone with Harry James .....fantastic allround musician.

An old friend of his was arranging music for Olivia Newton John's LP recording titled 'Evita' back in the 70's, and for one of the tunes he wanted a trombone note to crescendo from pianissimo to forte over many, many measures in one breath.

He knew of only one player that he trusted to do, Dave Robbins. The recording crew flew from LA to Vancouver, Canada where Dave had moved to in the '60's just to record him play 1 note!

He would laugh at this, and say that maybe he'd start charging his rates by the note! Best monetary day ever for playing 1 note!

Dave would always say don't underestimate what a good brass player is capable of when your'e writing....but, make sure you know who you're writing for if asking for something 'special'.

True story.


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## akhill jain (Mar 26, 2021)

wilifordmusic said:


> In my experience, very rarely. It is used more as a theatrical bit on stage rather than a practical technique that would be used in a studio. You would be better served staggering the phrases within instrument sections (horns, trombones, etc..) and indicating preferred breath marks or phrasing in each players part to ensure constant sound.
> 
> And remember, the bigger the instrument the shorter the phrase. Big mouthpiece=big air.
> If you can't sing it at a moderately loud dynamic, they probably can't play it.
> ...


Thank you so much, this really helps


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## akhill jain (Mar 26, 2021)

cmillar said:


> He would laugh at this, and say that maybe he'd start charging his rates by the note! Best monetary day ever for playing 1 note!


Hahaha this was epic!
Thank you for these insights @cmillar, it's really helpful!


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## Rodney Money (Mar 27, 2021)

I’m a brass player as well as a composer too. Typically for slow continuous scenarios for brass I typically illustrate to other composers in this fashion concerning endurance: picture if you have a slow hymn with 4 verses and 4 choruses, Brass players could play: Verse 1, chorus, Verse 2, chorus, rest Verse 3, play chorus, Verse 4, chorus. Here’s a hymn of mine that just plays 1 Verse and 1 chorus for demonstration:








If You Make The Lord Your Refuge


If You Make The Lord Your Refuge composed by Rodney Money is a hymn for the unexpected transformation of 2020. [email protected]




soundcloud.app.goo.gl


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## akhill jain (Mar 29, 2021)

Rodney Money said:


> I’m a brass player as well as a composer too. Typically for slow continuous scenarios for brass I typically illustrate to other composers in this fashion concerning endurance: picture if you have a slow hymn with 4 verses and 4 choruses, Brass players could play: Verse 1, chorus, Verse 2, chorus, rest Verse 3, play chorus, Verse 4, chorus. Here’s a hymn of mine that just plays 1 Verse and 1 chorus for demonstration:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you so much, I think that makes sense!


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## akhill jain (Mar 29, 2021)

Here's the exercise that I programmed on Horns after having gotten some insight from this thread. It's only my first attempt at programming brass and any observations would help! Thank you




__





Homophonic exercise- Horns


I'm currently reading and learning about orchestrating the brass section and I thought of making my first attempt at doing a slow homophonic exercise on horns and programming it. Last week after discussing about the practical playability on another thread-...




vi-control.net


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## longshan (Apr 11, 2021)

akhill jain said:


> How often does/ can circular breathing come into play?


And for horn players, it's really never done. I wouldn't write something that needs circular breathing, cuz a real horn player won't be able to do it beyond holding a single note. And even then, keeping the pitch steady requires a lot of practise. We don't have time for that, lol. 

I'm a horn player, btw.


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## denstrow (Apr 11, 2021)

Horn player here. Heard the piece - it's not a problem to play. The dynamics you used help. We wouldn't necessarily phrase it chord by chord like in the mockup, mind you - longer lines would be thought of. The most extreme piece I've played like that was by James Tenney (I don't recall the title), which consisted only of long notes, each one played for about 20 sec. and I think the piece lasted 15-20 minutes. That was tiring!


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## akhill jain (Apr 21, 2021)

longshan said:


> And for horn players, it's really never done. I wouldn't write something that needs circular breathing, cuz a real horn player won't be able to do it beyond holding a single note. And even then, keeping the pitch steady requires a lot of practise. We don't have time for that, lol.
> 
> I'm a horn player, btw.


Thanks for the insight!


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## akhill jain (Apr 21, 2021)

denstrow said:


> Horn player here. Heard the piece - it's not a problem to play. The dynamics you used help. We wouldn't necessarily phrase it chord by chord like in the mockup, mind you - longer lines would be thought of. The most extreme piece I've played like that was by James Tenney (I don't recall the title), which consisted only of long notes, each one played for about 20 sec. and I think the piece lasted 15-20 minutes. That was tiring!


Thank you for the insight, It's really helpful


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## akhill jain (Apr 24, 2021)

Hello folks, 
Please if you could check the time stamp: 0:49-1:02 from the mentioned video (Brahm's Trio For Horn in Eb Maj)


The dynamics are moderately loud for the part played by the horn and yet the player managed to play it without a pause. 
While I know about the dynamics and pitch affecting this, please if someone could provide some more insight on playing in one breath on brass and breathing as well? Thank you


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## Samulis (Apr 24, 2021)

akhill jain said:


> Hello folks,
> Please if you could check the time stamp: 0:49-1:02 from the mentioned video (Brahm's Trio For Horn in Eb Maj)
> 
> 
> ...



Trombonist thoughts- I'd classify the dynamics as maybe mp, at most mf. 'f' generally means there is a little 'edge' in the sound, but this is solidly warm and without any harshness throughout. He is also playing in the 'heartland' of the instrument, where it requires a comfortable amount of air only, not down low or too high.

If you listen later at 1:12 he starts a phase and needs a breath by 1:19, probably because he knows he has more to play in the line and needs to ensure he can finish it cleanly. Usually in the case of frequently performed classical works, the placement of breaths (like phrasing) is highly studied, debated, and often standardized across interpretations, including marking out preparatory breaths.

The difference on modern large-bore trombone, for example, between an F3 ("mid F") at ppp and a Bb1 (pedal tone) at fff is about 50-60 seconds to 4 seconds. That said, you should probably never write anything longer than 15 seconds without a breath, regardless of how quiet it is... besides, ppp in an ensemble context is usually inaudible and thus not really even worth asking the player to do.

(note that different players have different abilities and specializations; there are pros and amateurs alike who struggle to play below mp or pedal tones or high notes; for best results, if you're writing for something to be sight-read, write within the 'heartland' of the instrument and within comfortable dynamics, pp-ff, but never just sitting on either, avoid writing in the extremes and in particular staying in any extreme register, and provide regular opportunities for breaths and a few measures worth of chop breaks here and there)

Generally, breath marks that apply to singing apply to brass playing. Much of brass technique is historically inspired by and derived from choral/vocal writing, in particular for trombone and trumpet (but also horn in many contexts). Breaths support and enhance the intended phrasing and direction of the phrases, providing a lift between each phrase. Try singing your lines at a comfortable level and you'll naturally breathe when you need to. If you can't sing the lines, they're probably not good brass lines in the first place anyway.

Some composers put in breath marks, or, as I prefer, use slurs to denote phrases (or at least, portions when the musician should NOT breathe). Keep in mind, if you do nothing, brass players will automatically choose the most appropriate place to breathe, which may or may not fit your intentions of the phrasing of the work (such as on a dot or at the end of a tied note). This includes breaking a sustain which is too long, which is just lazy writing anyway.

Edit: Pretty much any classical or jazz musician will automatically group together any series if notes into a phrase. It is part of their training and instinct. If you want notes treated equally, you generally need to write in equal articulation markings (e.g. all tenutos/all accented) to request that they treat the notes as individual entities rather than something to phrase and shape. So, if you are just writing block chords of whole notes, you might want to consider putting in something to indicate phrase groupings.

e.g. Equali using dynamics and barlines to group phrases; note the unsynchronized breaths at mm.20, where half the players treat the second halfnote as a pickup and the others as the end of the phrase, and someone continually sneaking in breaths before the final note:


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## akhill jain (Apr 25, 2021)

Samulis said:


> Trombonist thoughts- I'd classify the dynamics as maybe mp, at most mf. 'f' generally means there is a little 'edge' in the sound, but this is solidly warm and without any harshness throughout. He is also playing in the 'heartland' of the instrument, where it requires a comfortable amount of air only, not down low or too high.
> 
> If you listen later at 1:12 he starts a phase and needs a breath by 1:19, probably because he knows he has more to play in the line and needs to ensure he can finish it cleanly. Usually in the case of frequently performed classical works, the placement of breaths (like phrasing) is highly studied, debated, and often standardized across interpretations, including marking out preparatory breaths.
> 
> ...



Thank you Samulis for taking out sometime and helping out so elaborately, it's really helpful and clarifies my query. Really appreciate it! Cheers.


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