# Mac Studio Max or Ultra?



## stigc56 (Sep 11, 2022)

Hi
Today I returned from a hike in Norway to find that my Mac Pro 6.1 can't boot!!
There have been numerous issues with my workhorse (bought 2017) lately and the heat is rather problematic in these time with raising prices on electricity.
Now I wonder if it's time to a buy a new Mac: Max or Ultra? My old Mac Pro 6.1. (8 core) has 128 Gb, but I think I can live with 64, to be honest. I use it for my projects - Cubase, Studio One and Dorico - sometimes large orchestral - lots of VSL, 2 servers - with around 80 tracks, a lot of virtual instruments, but often smaller and most of the time Dorico.
I have a Black Magic MultiDock with 10 Tb Samsung SSD's.
So my question is, should I go for the Ultra or will Max be sufficient?


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## RogiervG (Sep 11, 2022)

what is mac ultra?
do you mean mac studio ultra? vs mac studio max?


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## stigc56 (Sep 11, 2022)

Sorry!!
It's of course the Mac Studio Max against the Mac Studio Ultra.
I will edit my first post!


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## Jett Hitt (Sep 11, 2022)

I weighed this heavily before I finally bought the Studio Max with 64GB. The additional power in the Ultra is wasted on audio, so you just wind up paying that extra $2k for 64 additional GB of Ram. If you do some video work too, there might be an argument for the Ultra.


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## HCMarkus (Sep 11, 2022)

Largely depends on how price-sensitive you are. In addition to the beefed up GPU, the Ultra has nearly double the CPU horsepower. To what extent that extra power will ever be used/useable with a DAW is currently uncertain. Since you have the servers, the probability you will ever use the Ultra CPU seems very low. Of course, if you actually _need_ 128GB of RAM, the Ultra is your only choice.


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## ckett (Sep 12, 2022)

I went with the Ultra. Tests I have seen showed almost double the track count. When it comes to individual instruments at a time, most only use one core so there is no performance difference. But with multiple individual instruments, the added cores do make a difference, same when it comes down to mixing with plugins.


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## PeterKorcek (Sep 13, 2022)

If you can afford it, just get the Ultra (better chip overall, future proof). That would be my choice easily, you will gain 128 GB of RAM, that you cannot get with Max.


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## stigc56 (Sep 13, 2022)

PeterKorcek said:


> If you can afford it, just get the Ultra (better chip overall, future proof). That would be my choice easily, you will gain 128 GB of RAM, that you cannot get with Max.


Well it's a little hard right now, so I think I will stay with "little" one. Or??


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## Junolab (Sep 13, 2022)

stigc56 said:


> Well it's a little hard right now, so I think I will stay with "little" one. Or??


Since the Max is basically half the price you could just buy that one and then upgrade halfway. It will likely result in a better computer. I don't get the "future-proof" concept with computers. Sure you'll want more power later on, but the old maxed-out computer is likely slower than anything new on the market anyway. I don't know how efficient running a setup with multiple computers are, but you could consider a few Mac Minis as well. That would likely give you way more cores to play with.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 13, 2022)

I'm still holding out, but if I were going to buy a MacStudio today it would not be the ultra based on the research I did. The question is only whether 64gb would suffice. It might though as virtual memory is way faster and better on M1.


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## Mike Stone (Sep 14, 2022)

Here in Norway the Apple prices are getting downright vulgar, from being very reasonable about 10 years ago. Apple keeps upping their prices when the "dollar is strong" or the "euro is weak". However, Apple never lowers the prices afterwards, when the currencies balance out later. When this happens again and again, you end up with really high prices, and Apple products in Europe now cost a lot more than in USA. The recent iPhone 14 launch was simply ridiculous IMO.

I'm very close to ditching Apple, but Logic Pro keeps holding me back. I'm going to keep my maxed out Mac Mini 2018 a few more years (which is still more powerful in 2022 than you'd think), as I can't justify Apple's greedy prices anymore.

As far as Mac Studio goes, I would under no circumstance get the Ultra for DAW work, unless you *need* 128gb and use really large orchestral templates/arrangements. The Max version have all the CPU power you need, and I kinda disagree with the future-proofing argument. By the time we have M3 or M4 etc., there will probably be a superior machine than the current Mac Studio Ultra in the same product segment as the Mac Studio Max, esp. considering how important single thread performance is for DAW work. Who knows how expensive it will get, though.


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## stigc56 (Sep 14, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> I'm still holding out, but if I were going to buy a MacStudio today it would not be the ultra based on the research I did. The question is only whether 64gb would suffice. It might though as virtual memory is way faster and better on M1.


Yes that is one of my concerns, because right now I have 128gb in my Mac Pro 6.1, but frankly I have never used so much, so maybe 64 is enough. The benchmarks for the Max is anyway much better!


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 14, 2022)

I'm sure the Ultra is better then the Max if price is no object, but its a question of cost-value. Diminishing return. There may have been a few other drawbacks when I was looking into it a month or two ago, I don't remember now, I've already written them both off for the moment to wait for the next thing to come out.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 14, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> Here in Norway the Apple prices are getting downright vulgar, from being very reasonable about 10 years ago. Apple keeps upping their prices when the "dollar is strong" or the "euro is weak". However, Apple never lowers the prices afterwards, when the currencies balance out later. When this happens again and again, you end up with really high prices, and Apple products in Europe now cost a lot more than in USA. The recent iPhone 14 launch was simply ridiculous IMO.



I feel your pain, but its a little unfair to blame Apple for the Euro drop in value. In fact Apple has not raised prices on their products, they have remained exactly the same. What has changed is the trade-value of your Euros compared to the USD. This may appear to you in euros like the price has gone up...but it has not. The value of your euros has gone down, so you need more of them to buy the same product at the same price.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 14, 2022)

stigc56 said:


> Yes that is one of my concerns, because right now I have 128gb in my Mac Pro 6.1, but frankly I have never used so much, so maybe 64 is enough. The benchmarks for the Max is anyway much better!



Yea. also with the M1 platform you can shorten your sample streaming preload times to minimal values and MacOS will also make more effective use of virtual memory than Intel boxes.. so basically I think probably 64 is enough, but honestly I am also waiting until I hear from someone like you to get one of the 64gb boxes and do some typical orch work and report the findings. Some of the power users that went with ultra are of course having no memory problem...and then there are always a few people doing insanely big productions and genuinely need the Ultra, but I think personally they are running uncommon setup and may be overkill for most of us.


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## Vik (Sep 14, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> As far as Mac Studio goes, I would under no circumstance get the Ultra for DAW work, unless you *need* 128gb.


....and not only need 128 gb right now, but for the lifetime of the Ultra (in your ownership). I suspect that lots of the orchestral libraries that will be released in the not-too-distant future will be more RAM heavy than ever, due to all the dynamic layers, round robins, mic positions etc. we keep asking for. 
Many of the current libraries – even the good ones – are cutting corners in terms of avoiding stuff that would be really useful, like eg. four vibrato options per dynamic layer (all with the needed legato transitions baked in), more length options for the short notes, more attack options and so on – per dynamic layer. In, say, 5 years from now these libraries will be a lot more demanding than what we are sued to today.



Mike Stone said:


> Here in Norway the Apple prices are getting downright vulgar, from being very reasonable about 10 years ago


...and the dollar rate is also twice as high as it was 10 years ago?


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## RogiervG (Sep 14, 2022)

i find the pricing absurd for the extra's.
little extra ram? BAM 1K extra, some extra storage? bam 800 extra, a simple (and not so well made) trackpad, keyboard or mouse? bam 150+ easily.
And still you cannot add your own ram or storage when you want... nope.. locked down.
The base pricing (max that is) is reasonable (nothing against that) but, again those extra's... it blows my mind why people agree with these practises.
A not so (special enough for the pricetag) monitor? 1.5K easy, like it's nothing.

For three grand e.g. you get far more power/resources in the pc world available.
The only real pro of the m chips, is it's powerconsumption and cpu ratio (you get a lot of power per wattage in contrast to the pc world and older gen macs based on intel). that's a nice thing, i give apple that. But for the money it's underpowered (not considering wattage use)


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## BassClef (Sep 14, 2022)

I went with the ultra for greater future proofing. I believe more software developers will be making greater use of the multi cpu and gpu cores. If they do not within the next few years, I may have wasted some money.


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## Mike Stone (Sep 14, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> I feel your pain, but its a little unfair to blame Apple for the Euro drop in value. In fact Apple has not raised prices on their products, they have remained exactly the same. What has changed is the trade-value of your Euros compared to the USD. This may appear to you in euros like the price has gone up...but it has not. The value of your euros has gone down, so you need more of them to buy the same product at the same price.


No, it's very fair. As I stated, that there have been several price hikes the last 10 years or so from Apple, but Apple never lowers the price when the currencies again are more favorable to Europe. It's not like it's 13-13.5:1 between the US dollar and Norwegian krone, it's 10:1 - but not with Apple's prices though. Also compared with other brands, Apple products clearly have gotten more expensive during the last 10 years or so compared to the competition.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 14, 2022)

I still don't believe you. You are blaming apple for the euro changes. It just doesn't work that way. Their prices are well established around the world based on USD pricing. USD pricing is based on their USD based development and company costs.


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## Mike Stone (Sep 14, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> I still don't believe you. You are blaming apple for the euro changes. It just doesn't work that way. Their prices are well established around the world based on USD pricing. USD pricing is based on their USD based development and company costs.


Do you live in Norway? Have you followed Apple's pricing here in Norway, and compared it to Apple's prices in USA during the last decade?

Don't fall for Apple's greed and PR talking points (there's a lot of purchasing power here in Scandinavia). The currency has fluctuated between ca. 8-10 NOK (Norwegian kroner) to 1 US dollar during the last 10 years, and around 10:1 a lot of the time. It's not like the currency gradually went from 6:1 to 10:1 in a linear fashion, but this is getting OT. Try going into the Norwegian Apple website, and compare our prices with the US ones.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 14, 2022)

prices can also be affected by importation costs, etc. you are pushing a conspiracy theory.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 14, 2022)

you may find this site interesting:








Compare cheapest Apple product prices worldwide


List prices of Apple iPhone, iPad, MacBook, Mac, Watch, TV, accessories in different country and compare with tax rate and refunds available.




themacindex.com


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## stigc56 (Sep 14, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> I feel your pain, but its a little unfair to blame Apple for the Euro drop in value. In fact Apple has not raised prices on their products, they have remained exactly the same. What has changed is the trade-value of your Euros compared to the USD. This may appear to you in euros like the price has gone up...but it has not. The value of your euros has gone down, so you need more of them to buy the same product at the same price.


You know in Norway they still have their "Krone", they haven't switched to € yet.


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## Spid (Sep 14, 2022)

The main question is: how long do you plan to keep your Mac Studio? How quickly you think you will replace it?

If you plan to keep it for let’s say 3 years (± 1 year), then don’t bother with the Ultra, just go for the Max 64GB. If you plan to keep your Mac Studio for at least 5 or 6 years (or more), then go for the 128GB version.

Thinking we will never *need* more than 64GB of RAM is like Bill Gates saying than 640kb of RAM is more memory than anyone will ever need…


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## Bear Market (Sep 14, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> you may find this site interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You just confirmed his point. (The same point that 10 minutes ago was a conspiracy theory).

The VAT over here is a killer though... as a Swede I can sympathize.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 14, 2022)

Spid said:


> If you plan to keep it for let’s say 3 years (± 1 year), then don’t bother with the Ultra, just go for the Max 64GB. If you plan to keep your Mac Studio for at least 5 or 6 years (or more), then go for the 128GB version.
> 
> Thinking we will never *need* more than 64GB of RAM is like Bill Gates saying than 640kb of RAM is more memory than anyone will ever need…


I suppose, but actually in the past 10 years or so, memory requirements for general PC and Mac use has not really gone up that way. For an awful lot of the population, 16gb is more than enough and probably the most that people will need to run MacOS or Windows11 for quite some time to come. 

Even for power users...that need for more than about 64gb is really just for certain specialized situations....and I don't think the need for more and more memory is really happening as much as you are representing it right now. in the past, yes, that trend was happening, but I don't see it now. I personally don't think any of us will be using that much memory for quite some time.

That being said, I have 96gb on my macPro and I would prefer more than 64gb also for orch work. But as I said, the Apple silicon platform provides such improvements to memory and SSD speed that now virtual memory and SSD streaming are far more efficient and in fact we very well may be able to run sizable orch projects on a 64gb AS Mac. So far, I really haven't seen good reports from the right kinds of people to verify that, the first wave of orchestrators jumping early to AS, jumped right on the Ultra model sight unseen and are basically just evangelizing for it, but IMHO, little testing has been done in this area with the 64gb Max and what is the actual "max" orchestration type of scenario it can handle.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 14, 2022)

Bear Market said:


> You just confirmed his point. (The same point that 10 minutes ago was a conspiracy theory).
> 
> The VAT over here is a killer though... as a Swede I can sympathize.



I did not confirm his point. If you read their page it explains that US pricing does not include taxes because different states charge different tax rates. if you subtract taxes from all pricing and account for currency conversions and importation costs...the prices are the same around the world with very few exceptions where some countries have tax refunds that you might be able to benefit from by buying abroad and claiming the tax refund.


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## stigc56 (Sep 14, 2022)

Spid said:


> The main question is: how long do you plan to keep your Mac Studio? How quickly you think you will replace it?
> 
> If you plan to keep it for let’s say 3 years (± 1 year), then don’t bother with the Ultra, just go for the Max 64GB. If you plan to keep your Mac Studio for at least 5 or 6 years (or more), then go for the 128GB version.
> 
> Thinking we will never *need* more than 64GB of RAM is like Bill Gates saying than 640kb of RAM is more memory than anyone will ever need…


Yes I get your point, but remember I have already been working with a Mac with 128 gigs, and frankly I have never been near the limit.
The repair shop thinks that I need a new Logic Board, and when that's is fixed and my old machine is working again, I will test it with my biggest Cubase session and read the ram use, then I maybe know more. But I think I will sell it and buy a Max.


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## Mike Stone (Sep 14, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> prices can also be affected by importation costs, etc. you are pushing a conspiracy theory.


You obviously haven't bothered checking our prices, or the currency development during the last 10 years in my country. You thought we have euros here, we don't - we are not an EU member. Now you claim I peddle in "conspiracy theory". Whatever, you don't bother checking the facts, just throwing out lazy lines. I'm out.

Back to the topic, good luck with the purchase, either way you'll be getting an awesome machine.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 14, 2022)

Yes Mike you are pedaling a conspiracy theory. Sorry I confused about which currency you are using. its the same principle either way.


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## stigc56 (Sep 14, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> Back to the topic, good luck with the purchase, either way you'll be getting an awesome machine.


Thanks a lot! I hope I can order it in a few days.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 14, 2022)

stigc56 said:


> You know in Norway they still have their "Krone", they haven't switched to € yet.


And they were very glad about that during the Great Recession.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 14, 2022)

They will be glad in the next one coming soon too!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 14, 2022)

Speaking for myself, paying twice as much as the base model to "future-proof" a computer that already has more power than you're likely to use doesn't make a lot of sense.

That's a big qualifier! I'm not saying the Ultra isn't a good idea for many people, just that it's unlikely to make a music and audio computer future proof. My thinking is that you sell this Mac and buy the next one when you need to in a few years.

RAM is a different matter, because it's a resource you can run out of. I don't need 128GB, but 64GB leaves me overhead to have other programs than Logic open at the same time.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 14, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> RAM is a different matter, because it's a resource you can run out of. I don't need 128GB, but 64GB leaves me overhead to have other programs than Logic open at the same time.


and just to be clear...that is the kind of situation that virtual memory handling is particularly good at dealing with...unless all of those open programs are all actually churning at the same time..then of course you _might_ need more ram...but..anyway I digress... we simply need to hear more reports from some power daw users using the Max and reporting what they are getting out of it.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 14, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> They will be glad in the next one coming soon too


It remains to be seen whether it's coming soon - I doubt it, but I don't have a crystal ball - and if it does then it's likely to be different from the Great Recession, which was financial crisis causing a lack of demand. We're not in a bubble now.

Countries on their own currency were able to run large deficits during the Great Recession, not that they did run large enough ones to get out of the slump quickly enough.

In any case, it's hardly news that Apple charges a premium for their products. I've always found it worth it.

And my sympathies to people in countries where it's... what was the word - hideous? I forget.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 14, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It remains to be seen whether it's coming soon - I doubt it, but I don't have a crystal ball - and if it does then it's likely to be different from the Great Recession, which was financial crisis causing a lack of demand.



its coming.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> Countries on their own currency were able to run large deficits during the Great Recession, not that they did run large enough ones to get out of the slump quickly enough.



The EU is possibly on the verge of being taken down by bad Germany energy policy and the unfolding situation in Europe, particularly Germany, which is a big part of euro value. Other countries that are not based on euro might be in better shape then EU, provided they are also not going to suffer the coming winter of power and gas shortages.

USA is also on course for a recession for mainly different reasons...but as you said..who has a crystal ball...but I'm calling it anyway...as are many economists....



Nick Batzdorf said:


> And my sympathies to people in countries where it's... what was the word - hideous? I forget.



None of the countries mentioned here are paying more for apple products then anywhere else. They might be paying higher taxes or getting hit by currency fluxations... There might be some third world far off republics that have to pay some premium price for western products..I have no idea. this kind of stuff is super expensive in Bali for example because of high import fees.

And I do feel for them, the pinch is going to get worse.... be ready...


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## Jett Hitt (Sep 14, 2022)

stigc56 said:


> Yes I get your point, but remember I have already been working with a Mac with 128 gigs, and frankly I have never been near the limit.
> The repair shop thinks that I need a new Logic Board, and when that's is fixed and my old machine is working again, I will test it with my biggest Cubase session and read the ram use, then I maybe know more. But I think I will sell it and buy a Max.


When I chose the Max, I did so knowing that I could slave some of my older Macs if I needed to. I have my 5,1 with 128 GB and an iMac with 32 GB. VePro is great for this. It’s fairly simple and allows me to harness those older machines. I would seriously consider keeping my 6,1 and slaving it.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 14, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> and just to be clear...that is the kind of situation that virtual memory handling is particularly good at dealing with...unless all of those open programs are all actually churning at the same time..then of course you _might_ need more ram...but..anyway I digress... we simply need to hear more reports from some power daw users using the Max and reporting what they are getting out of it.



That's a good point about virtual memory, but do you have control over what gets stuck in a swapfile and what gets loaded into RAM - i.e. does it know to keep sample libraries loaded and things that aren't real-time in the swapfile?

In any case, I think it was worth going for 64GB just to avoid having to think about that.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 14, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That's a good point about virtual memory, but do you have control over what gets stuck in a swapfile and what gets loaded into RAM - i.e. does it know to keep sample libraries loaded and things that aren't real-time in the swapfile?



well no, you have no control over how MacOS does virtual memory. Apps always think they are working with real memory. the OS swaps stuff in and out of memory in ways that it thinks is the best..stuff that is actively being used gets prioritized, etc. Each app has no awareness of other apps they always think they have the whole memory available to themselves. But if you have some apps sitting in the background doing nothing, they will simply get swapped out. the active app will be swapped in. You have to try it out and see how well it works, you can monitor with ActivityMonitor to see how well its all doing and whether swap is killing you or not. 

The thing is that new Apple Silicon Macs are much much more efficient at swapping memory in and out, which means that you may not care about it. The machine will be swapping more and everything will be running fine..to some max limit. There will be a limit sooner or later of course.

Also with the new fast SSD's they are using, you will be able to turn down the pre-fetch values on your sample players..which means less actually has to be put into ram to begin with..it will be streaming samples a lot more then before....and avoiding memory usage that way.




Nick Batzdorf said:


> In any case, I think it was worth going for 64GB just to avoid having to think about that.



I do think 64gb is a good call. if I were going to buy one today that is the model I would get.


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## Technostica (Sep 14, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That's a good point about virtual memory, but do you have control over what gets stuck in a swapfile and what gets loaded into RAM - i.e. does it know to keep sample libraries loaded and things that aren't real-time in the swapfile?


I doubt it. 
If memory is that tight you would likely close everything that isn't DAW related. 
So at that point there is nothing that is supeflous. 
Unless your DAW can automatically purge and load samples based on looking ahead, what else can be done? 
And that isn't going to happen AFAIK.


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## Simon Ravn (Sep 14, 2022)

Bear Market said:


> You just confirmed his point. (The same point that 10 minutes ago was a conspiracy theory).
> 
> The VAT over here is a killer though... as a Swede I can sympathize.


…. But if you are a pro you dont pay VAT. Or rather, you get it back again from the tax authorities.


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## HCMarkus (Sep 14, 2022)

I'm running Kontakt on my Mac studio with smallest allowable pre-load/pre-fetch. No issues.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 14, 2022)

Technostica said:


> I doubt it.
> If memory is that tight you would likely close everything that isn't DAW related.
> So at that point there is nothing that is supeflous.
> Unless your DAW can automatically purge and load samples based on looking ahead, what else can be done?
> And that isn't going to happen AFAIK.


Yes, my question was pretty much rhetorical.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 14, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> I do think 64gb is a good call. if I were going to buy one today that is the model I would get.



But you're far too intelligent to go for 4TB of internal storage. Only a totally irresponsible fool would do something like that.


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## Vik (Sep 14, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> you may find this site interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This tells something about the differences. I read recently that the latest iPhones are priced similar to the previous model in US and China, but not in other countries. In Norway it's circa $220 more expensive than in US before sales tax. I'm no expert on Apple's price policy, but it doesn't seem to be 'static'.

From that list:


🇳🇴 Norway
25% VAT -15%US$2,258US$1,987​22.190 NOK

Apple doesn't seem to want to change prices often, so when they price a new product (outside US), they probably set the price so high that it will be profitable even if the exchange rates. Since I saw a recent article in a tech magazine discussing how much more expensive the new phones are in Norway than they are in US, I used that an example – but maybe the pricing policy is different for Macs?

Of course the 25% Scandinavian sales tax affects the price a lot too, but consumer rights are also quite strong in these countries, which of course will make the prices higher.




Mike Stone said:


> The currency has fluctuated between ca. 8.5-10 NOK (Norwegian kroner) to 1 US dollar during the last 10 years, and around 10:1 a lot of the time,



I've lived in four different countries, and Norway is one of them. When I bought my 2008 Mac in Norway, the dollar rate was exactly half of what it is now. It had increased a little when when the 2010 Mac was released, and was still between 5 and 6 kroner 10 years ago. I don't remember these rates, but found a graph!  Long story short: it hasn't been around 10:1 a lot of the time.

So the exchange rate, the strong consumer rights and the fact that Apple now increases prices in non-US countries but not in US (according to that articles) simple means that there isn't an universal, static truth about this. If the USD rate from the good old days still would be valid, the Ultra price would have been good in Norway as well, and if it stops working, Norwegians would be in a better situation that the US consumer.

Having said that, the best Ultras are bloody expensive outside US (and I'm certainly not going to pay $2250 for a phone)!


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 14, 2022)

See this sub-page of the quoted site









About The Mac Index


List prices of Apple iPhone, iPad, MacBook, Mac, Watch, TV, accessories in different country and compare with tax rate and refunds available.




themacindex.com





Check out the underlined bits from it below. The Norwegian price is listed with tax included. The USA price is listed without tax included.

In the case of Norway, for example, an iPhone 14 Pro is $200 more than in the USA, after tax refund...but the the price listed for USA doesn't include tax...and guess what that would work out to? About the same. Apple doesn't control exchange rates...blame your governments.



> About The Mac Index​The Mac Index _indexes_ Apple website to get latest price of all Apple products, and display them in latest currency rates, after calculating any applicable tax rates, and tax refund rates.
> 
> It took metadata from Apple called Structured Data (which Google use for its Shopping site) on each product page, parse the price in each currency, and depending on the country, deduct or add the tax on the price, and display the final price. This ensures it only displays authoritative retail price from Apple, and not resellers or online shopping sites where prices are subject to occasional promotions and targeting.
> 
> ...


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## Vik (Sep 14, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> Check out the underlined bits from it below. The Norwegian price is listed with tax included. The USA price is listed without tax included.


That's why I compared the prices without sales tax.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 14, 2022)

for most countries, the prices without sales tax are not provided according to their about page. So where did you get the data for without sales tax for Norway, for example.


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## Vik (Sep 14, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> for most countries, the prices without sales tax are not provided according to their about page.


That’s why I found the Norwegian price without tax on a Norwegian site.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 14, 2022)

please quote your sources.


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## KEM (Sep 14, 2022)

I have an M1 Ultra and it’s incredible, loving working on it everyday, no complaints from me to be honest

Also, I really wish I could just say “I was on a hike in Norway” whenever I wanted, you’re very lucky…!!


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 14, 2022)

For example....here is one example of MacStudioUltra... according to the above site which grabs the data from Apples online stores around the world.






That is list price of $3999 without tax, and based on estimated 10% tax totals out $4,379 in some states. (Some USA states have less or no state sales tax...not mine heheh)

Then we have Norway






This says the price in Norway, including 25% VAT is $4,889. If you are buying from a place where you can get 15% tax refund, then the final price might be as low as $4,302, thus making it actually less expensive then USA if you can travel to Norway to buy it and then get the 15% tax refund.

Of course Norway residents I presume can't get that refund so they have to pay the full 25% VAT on it...$4,889, however... Note that 25% tax on $3999 is actually $999.75, which doesn't add up. That means Norway is actually getting $100 discount on the list price compared to USA actually...not more. Its less there!


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## KEM (Sep 14, 2022)

@Mike Stone you live in Norway too?! How come everyone else gets to live in Norway and Sweden and I’m stuck here in Missouri


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## Vik (Sep 14, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> For example....here is one example of MacStudioUltra...


Hi again, the example I used was about the new iPhone, and those prices are well documented – eg. in the link you provided + it's no secret that the sales tax in Scandinavia is 25%. So it's easy to find the price without tax. But maybe this is a new thing (that they increase the prices outside US but not inside – and if it is, and if the same model would be used for future Apple products, that _could_ apply to Macs as well.


Dewdman42 said:


> This says the price in Norway, including 25% VAT is $4,889. If you are buying from a place where you can get 15% tax refund


If you qualify for sales tax refund in Norway, you get the whole sales tax back, but if what you produce or sell has no sales tax (eg. if you are a composer), you won't get any refund at all. If you're interested, I can see if I find that tech magazine article which discussed the same as Mike Stone brought up – that the prices has increased, but only outside US and China.

Wait – here's another article about the same thing. It documents that the new iPhones have had a price increase around 14% in Norway compared with the previous model, while they cost the same as the previous models in US.









Mye dyrere i Norge


I USA holdes prisene som før, men i Norge finner du nå ingen nye iPhone-modeller til under 10 000 kroner.




dinside.dagbladet.no


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 15, 2022)

The way to interpret that site I mentioned....

Its not about Norwegian business oriented tax benefits. It is intended for non-residents that want to find out if there is a cheaper way to buy something through another country rather than in the USA...by virtue of VAT refunds as non-residents... In the case of Norway I understand that be that visitors to Norway can get only 15% of the paid-VAT back..thus in the case of a MacStudioUltra....as a visitor to Norway...When all is said and done after taxes and refunds, its $77 cheaper to buy the MacStudioUltra in Norway and bring it home, then to buy it in the USA directly.

That's why the final bolded prices you see there are trying to compare which countries would have the best opportunity, as a traveler...to pickup an apple product for less then in the USA while traveling... In this case, yes its actually $77 cheaper...and that's not even refunding the full 25% vat back.

For an example of iphone14Pro, it would be $150 more expensive to buy from Norway...you are right. No idea why that would be...other then Norway could have imposed any number of regulatory fees, business markup requirements or other things that would add to the price. (shrug). I really find it extremely unlikely that Apple would be trying to "shaft" you in some way... That is a conspiracy theory. Apple is an international phenomenon with customers all over the world. I am certain that there is some markup that is added in each locale, for whatever the reason...but apple's bottom line is going to be very close to the same amount coming back to them for every product in every country. it would be interesting to find out why the iphone14Pro is marked up an additional $150 in Norway.


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## Mike Stone (Sep 15, 2022)

KEM said:


> @Mike Stone you live in Norway too?! How come everyone else gets to live in Norway and Sweden and I’m stuck here in Missouri


Norway's a pretty decent place, except for all the rain here in Bergen.  Missouri seems like a great place to visit, eg. Kansas City has given us many legendary musicians.



Vik said:


> This tells something about the differences. I read recently that the latest iPhones are priced similar to the previous model in US and China, but not in other countries. In Norway it's circa $220 more expensive than in US before sales tax. I'm no expert on Apple's price policy, but it doesn't seem to be 'static'.
> 
> From that list:
> 
> ...


Thanks, my memory was off, I thought that the currency of 6:1 was 10 years ago, not 7. However, there have been several price hikes since then, and the price hikes are typically higher than the new exchange rate. Usually Apple sets the prices according to the new high point, and then the exchange rate is reduced, but Apple's prices then stay the same (eg. 2017-2019). Other products made in Asia had price hikes too, but not to Apple's extent. So it seems like Apple is taking advantage of this, and their overall position in the market. Apologies if my frustration got the better of me, but Apple products sure are getting expensive (more so than other brands).


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## bcslaam (Sep 15, 2022)

I'm really amazed you can do orchestral work without slaves. 

Are you guys saying you can do a full piece, strings brass cinematics synths reverbs all on one machine? 
I'm battling to keep it to 3. I admit I avoid freezing tracks and like my bussing to be already setup hence a big template. But I still disable unused tracks. 

Also how relevant is it talking about usings AS internal drives for anything substantial? Wouldnt you need around 10TB?


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## Simon Ravn (Sep 15, 2022)

Vik said:


> Hi again, the example I used was about the new iPhone, and those prices are well documented – eg. in the link you provided + it's no secret that the sales tax in Scandinavia is 25%. So it's easy to find the price without tax. But maybe this is a new thing (that they increase the prices outside US but not inside – and if it is, and if the same model would be used for future Apple products, that _could_ apply to Macs as well.
> 
> If you qualify for sales tax refund in Norway, you get the whole sales tax back, but if what you produce or sell has no sales tax (eg. if you are a composer), you won't get any refund at all. If you're interested, I can see if I find that tech magazine article which discussed the same as Mike Stone brought up – that the prices has increased, but only outside US and China.
> 
> ...





bcslaam said:


> I'm really amazed you can do orchestral work without slaves.
> 
> Are you guys saying you can do a full piece, strings brass cinematics synths reverbs all on one machine?
> I'm battling to keep it to 3. I admit I avoid freezing tracks and like my bussing to be already setup hence a big template. But I still disable unused tracks.
> ...


I have reduced my system to a one machine only since about two years ago. Much easier to manage, no performance issues. I dont use track disabling, I dont freeze. I use VEP to load a big template, then sometimes add a few things (synths, Kontakt, live recordings) unique to each cue in Logic itself. And yes, reverb, EQ etc in Logic too.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 15, 2022)

What about purchasing power in the US vs. Norway? $4000 in the US gets you a Mac, in Burundi it's probably enough to buy a few mansions.


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## Jett Hitt (Sep 15, 2022)

Macs might be a little more expensive in Norway, but healthcare and university are free. I think I’d be happy to pay a little more for my Mac 🤓


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## LatinXCombo (Sep 15, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> Macs might be a little more expensive in Norway, but healthcare and university are free. I think I’d be happy to pay a little more for my Mac 🤓


Nothing is free.


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## Jett Hitt (Sep 15, 2022)

LatinXCombo said:


> Nothing is free.


True, but in Norway their taxes pay for healthcare and university. My taxes pay for war on brown children and now, apparently, Russians.


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## Technostica (Sep 15, 2022)

But how much do bananas cost in Norway?


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## stigc56 (Sep 15, 2022)

KEM said:


> I have an M1 Ultra and it’s incredible, loving working on it everyday, no complaints from me to be honest
> 
> Also, I really wish I could just say “I was on a hike in Norway” whenever I wanted, you’re very lucky…!!


Well I live in Denmark, and basically Norway is old Danish country -  
No sorry!! I just love Norway for skiing and hiking, you know we have no mountains in Denmark!


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## stigc56 (Sep 15, 2022)

Anyway I just ordered the Studio Max with 64gb ram and 1 tb ssd.


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## Vik (Sep 15, 2022)

Technostica said:


> But how much do bananas cost in Norway?


Since you ask: here's a site that lets you compare banana (and other) prices across the planet. 





Cost of Living Comparison Between San Francisco, CA, United States And Oslo, Norway







www.numbeo.com


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## LatinXCombo (Sep 15, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> True, but in Norway their taxes pay for healthcare and university. My taxes pay for war on brown children and now, apparently, Russians.


So we agree. Though Norway goes to war too.


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## Vik (Sep 15, 2022)

LatinXCombo said:


> Nothing is free.


True. In countries with 'free' health care and education, it's esy to forget that the citizens pay for it through massive sales tax and other taxes, tax on penson, tax on unemployment support etc. This is a great solution for most people – except the many who end up being very poor in a rich country becuse the system is designed for families / those with at least one income. That's why many of those who need and want to buy an Ultra can't do that, while many of those who don't need one easily can. 

Btw, bananas cost less in Norway than in California, where they can be grown easily. Maybe slavery isn't totally dead after all.


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## Technostica (Sep 15, 2022)

Screw bananas, it's the price of beer that seems out of whack in some Scandi countries, so is that why the music is often so bleak!


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## Øivind (Sep 15, 2022)

Technostica said:


> Screw bananas, it's the price of beer that seems out of whack in some Scandi countries, so is that why the music is often so bleak!


That's how Nightcore came to be. Norwegian coping mechanisms when it comes to our beer prices can have strange and unpredictable side effects.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 15, 2022)

Vik said:


> True. In countries with 'free' health care and education, it's esy to forget that the citizens pay for it through massive sales tax and other taxes, tax on penson, tax on unemployment support etc. This is a great solution for most people – except the many who end up being very poor in a rich country becuse the system is designed for families / those with at least one income. That's why many of those who need and want to buy an Ultra can't do that, while many of those who don't need one easily can.
> 
> Btw, bananas cost less in Norway than in California, where they can be grown easily. Maybe slavery isn't totally dead after all.


I would have lots to say about that. but this really should be moved to the OT Politics forum rather than here if it's going to continue.

But I will digress and say that Trader Joe's here in Los Angeles sells organic bananas for 29¢ each, regular ones for 19¢. Or at least that was the price last time it registered in my brain, which wasn't that long ago. To me that doesn't seem like much, but Apples are a lot more than bananas.

(I don't really look at the price of groceries, because I know we have to eat and I'm going to pay it anyway.)


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## KEM (Sep 15, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> Norway's a pretty decent place, except for all the rain here in Bergen.  Missouri seems like a great place to visit, eg. Kansas City has given us many legendary musicians.



A lot of great, iconic musicians have came out of St. Louis as well!! Chuck Berry, Tina Turner, Akon, and I’ve even heard there’s this new kid Kenneth Mulwee coming up in the film scoring world that has some potential but you just can’t beat Scandinavia, probably the greatest place on earth honestly


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## Vik (Sep 17, 2022)

Simon Ravn said:


> I have reduced my system to a one machine only since about two years ago. Much easier to manage


Sure, I won't even consider using a slave computer now when computers are as powerful as they are. In some emergency situation I'd just freeze some tracks – or remove some superfluous notes!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 17, 2022)

This does all change fast, doesn't it.

I remember Herb Tucmandl (sp? - head of VSL) saying that memory access would soon be problem of the past, in the days when a single PC running Windows XP could only access 1.5GB of RAM.

The next step was Kontakt's Memory Server or whatever it was called, which fooled Mac OS X into accessing more than the theoretical (optimistic) 4GB max for a single 32-bit program by running multiple "programs."

And it seemed preposterous to want to load, say, 32GB of sample libraries into a single machine, because it would have taken way too long.

That was before SSDs, which to my mind are the most drastic jump we've seen since the beginning of the digital age. They sped everything up more than if you'd jumped a few generations of computers.

And now here we are discussing whether you even need to load an entire sample template into RAM, since the storage is so fast.

Before long we'll probably get to the point where storage and memory are the same thing.


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## Technostica (Sep 17, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Before long we'll probably get to the point where storage and memory are the same thing.


Persistent memory is already a thing in some high end servers.
But it uses Intel Optane DIMMs as a secondary tier, so not a full convergence yet.
There are always new solutions which promise the best of both worlds and they are always 5 years from making it into production.


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## HCMarkus (Sep 17, 2022)

Technostica said:


> Persistent memory is already a thing in some high end servers.
> But it uses Intel Optane DIMMs as a secondary tier, so not a full convergence yet.
> There are always new solutions which promise the best of both worlds and they are always 5 years from making it into production.


As you probably know, unless another company buys the tech, Optane is dead. 

Intel EOL'd it and will be using existing inventory to fill orders.


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## Technostica (Sep 18, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> As you probably know, unless another company buys the tech, Optane is dead.
> 
> Intel EOL'd it and will be using existing inventory to fill orders.


It wasn't a surprise really, with the dissolution of the partnership with Micron and all Intel's woes. 
I suppose the performance and density of DDR5 didn't help either. 

A true unified single memory/storage solution is still some way off, as Optane wasn't going to offer that.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 18, 2022)

Technostica said:


> A true unified single memory/storage solution is still some way off



Of course, sometimes what you wish for turns out to have issues.

The example I'm thinking of is laptops that are desktop replacements. Now that Apple's laptops are in that category, it turns out that the ergonomics wouldn't work with my set-up.

Well, they'd work okay if I wanted to waste money on the screen and sound by running the laptop in clamshell mode.

In the case of unified memory/storage, the most likely initial obstacle is the price.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 20, 2022)

Hah:









Apple prepares large App Store price hike in Europe and elsewhere


Comparative strength of US dollar leads to price rise of 20 to 30 percent in Euro zone and countries in Asia, Africa, and South America.




www.macworld.com


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## OleJoergensen (Sep 20, 2022)

stigc56 said:


> Well I live in Denmark, and basically Norway is old Danish country -
> No sorry!! I just love Norway for skiing and hiking, you know we have no mountains in Denmark!


Are you sure…we do have “Himmelbjerget” (Sky mountain) 147 meter….


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## Mike Stone (Sep 23, 2022)

OleJoergensen said:


> Are you sure…we do have “Himmelbjerget” (Sky mountain) 147 meter….


I guess the Danish people loves ironi.. 😆


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## ZosterX (Oct 4, 2022)

Hi, i'm planning getting a new macstudio. I mostly do orchestral production with 100 MIDI tracks at least.
if I take this one at this price, would it be enough ? Going with M1 MAX with 64GRAM ? :
https://www.apple.com/fr/shop/buy-m...neural-engine-16-cœurs-32-go-de-mémoire-512go


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## stingray306 (Oct 17, 2022)

Been reading this thread as I am also looking to buy a Mac Studio (big project coming up and my iMac will not last until whatever Apple has next comes out). I'm planning on sticking to the 64gb of RAM I think, but my question is ... how much of a difference do the cores make?

I was set on ordering a Max as I think it'll meet my needs, but felt immediately hesitant after reading on the Apple website under the "What chip is right for you" help section that the Ultra is intended for those working with "music scores with huge virtual instrument libraries". Now I'm self-conscious about initially leaning towards the Max.

It's a lot of $$ to be dropping, and I want to make sure I'm being smart!

To those who have picked up a studio, which core option did you go for and why?

Side note: I've also heard of some composers picking up MacBook Pros instead. The portability sounds nice, but something about a very expensive laptop feels like a red flag to me LOL


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## Kslovelace (Oct 17, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> I suppose, but actually in the past 10 years or so, memory requirements for general PC and Mac use has not really gone up that way. For an awful lot of the population, 16gb is more than enough and probably the most that people will need to run MacOS or Windows11 for quite some time to come.
> 
> Even for power users...that need for more than about 64gb is really just for certain specialized situations....and I don't think the need for more and more memory is really happening as much as you are representing it right now. in the past, yes, that trend was happening, but I don't see it now. I personally don't think any of us will be using that much memory for quite some time.
> 
> That being said, I have 96gb on my macPro and I would prefer more than 64gb also for orch work. But as I said, the Apple silicon platform provides such improvements to memory and SSD speed that now virtual memory and SSD streaming are far more efficient and in fact we very well may be able to run sizable orch projects on a 64gb AS Mac. So far, I really haven't seen good reports from the right kinds of people to verify that, the first wave of orchestrators jumping early to AS, jumped right on the Ultra model sight unseen and are basically just evangelizing for it, but IMHO, little testing has been done in this area with the 64gb Max and what is the actual "max" orchestration type of scenario it can handle.


I think the one thing to be cautious with here is with ssd you want to limit virtual memory use. I understand you can not limit it completely. But there have been reports of those that bought into the early m1 models with 16 gigs now experiencing harddrive failure as hundreds of writes a day to virtual memory has exceeded the ssds life cycle. 

If you get 64 gigs but your using templates that load to close that, your going to be caching thousands of files multiple times a day. 

I think apple introduced a fix in a recent update to limit this a bit, but we operate in a weird edge case where we are using considerably more ram than the average Mac user.


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## Vik (Oct 17, 2022)

stingray306 said:


> Side note: I've also heard of some composers picking up MacBook Pros instead. The portability sounds nice, but something about a very expensive laptop feels like a red flag to me LOL











macOS Ventura to launch in last week of October with support for upcoming 14 and 16-inch MacBook Pros


Prepare for the M2 Pro and M2 Max.




www.imore.com


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## John Zuker (Oct 30, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Speaking for myself, paying twice as much as the base model to "future-proof" a computer that already has more power than you're likely to use doesn't make a lot of sense.
> 
> That's a big qualifier! I'm not saying the Ultra isn't a good idea for many people, just that it's unlikely to make a music and audio computer future proof. My thinking is that you sell this Mac and buy the next one when you need to in a few years.
> 
> RAM is a different matter, because it's a resource you can run out of. I don't need 128GB, but 64GB leaves me overhead to have other programs than Logic open at the same time.


Going on about a month later, Nick, and to the rest of you who've made this choice, are you still happy that you went for the Max and not the Ultra? 
128g of RAM sounds enticing, but then again 64g of RAM has gotten me this far on the old cheese grater. Thinking that I can put the 1400 I'd save going Max towards the new interface I'd have to get.


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## stigc56 (Oct 30, 2022)

Hi
I haven't tested my new Mac Studio Max on one of my big DAW projects, but I have been writing quite many scores in Dorico and wauw it's a whole new experience! It's superfast, from the boot which runs under 25 sec. to how Dorico starts, and the browsing between 35 flows is ultra fast. It's a MAJOR improvement to the whole work experience to me. I got 64 gb, and I hope that will be sufficient for my future projects.
I have one issue and that is VSL!! Runs pretty bad under Rosetta in S1, and tried Cubase yet, but my studio is built around 1 master and 2 servers, both runs with a big VSL template loaded, right now that doesn't work.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 30, 2022)

John Zuker said:


> Going on about a month later, Nick, and to the rest of you who've made this choice, are you still happy that you went for the Max and not the Ultra?
> 128g of RAM sounds enticing, but then again 64g of RAM has gotten me this far on the old cheese grater. Thinking that I can put the 1400 I'd save going Max towards the new interface I'd have to get.


I'm extremely happy with the Max. So far processing power hasn't come close to being a bottleneck, and I personally don't need 128GB.

As I've said before, it's possible that people doing surround mixes at expensive sample rates would notice the difference, but I doubt even that. And if that becomes an issue, you just sell the Max and buy an Ultra. These things are likely to hold their value for a long time, just as all Macs do.

I also don't regret spending too much money on 4TB of very fast internal storage. 4TB is just for convenience, but the speed of this storage is remarkable when you're launching programs, or even restarting. For years I thought people who went on and on about M.2 bla bla were just being silly, but I was wrong.

Bummer that you need a new interface.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 30, 2022)

My plan had been to keep my 5,1 Mac Pro running just so I wouldn't lose some older software I thought I needed, but after a couple of weeks I realized I was never going to bother starting that machine up.

So I up and sold it. Net cost (i.e. the difference between what I paid and sold it for) for a machine I used all day long for 5-3/4 years: $750.


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## John Zuker (Oct 30, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I'm extremely happy with the Max. So far processing power hasn't come close to being a bottleneck, and I personally don't need 128GB.
> 
> As I've said before, it's possible that people doing surround mixes at expensive sample rates would notice the difference, but I doubt even that. And if that become an issue, you just sell the Max and buy an Ultra. These things are likely to hold their value for a long time, just as all Macs do.
> 
> ...


Nice! Thanks for the info, Nick. Great to know that the Max is working for you. It's encouraging to read that. I'm leaning towards 4g of storage as well. 

Interface wise, Ive been thinking about getting into the UA thing for a while. It'll likely cost about what I save by not getting the Ultra, more or less.


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## mscp (Oct 30, 2022)

stigc56 said:


> Hi
> Today I returned from a hike in Norway to find that my Mac Pro 6.1 can't boot!!
> There have been numerous issues with my workhorse (bought 2017) lately and the heat is rather problematic in these time with raising prices on electricity.
> Now I wonder if it's time to a buy a new Mac: Max or Ultra? My old Mac Pro 6.1. (8 core) has 128 Gb, but I think I can live with 64, to be honest. I use it for my projects - Cubase, Studio One and Dorico - sometimes large orchestral - lots of VSL, 2 servers - with around 80 tracks, a lot of virtual instruments, but often smaller and most of the time Dorico.
> ...


If you have a lot of old projects that you need to constantly go back to (for any reason), my tip is to get an Intel Mac Pro (2019) - based on my personal experience.


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## HCMarkus (Oct 30, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> My plan had been to keep my 5,1 Mac Pro running just so I wouldn't lose some older software I thought I needed, but after a couple of weeks I realized I was never going to bother starting that machine up.
> 
> So I up and sold it. Net cost (i.e. the difference between what I paid and sold it for) for a machine I used all day long for 5-3/4 years: $750.


Sounds like you got good money for your Cheesegrater, Nick. I sold a 12 core 3.33 for $350 a couple of months ago; couldn't seem to find anyone willing to pay more. So, the net cost for my Mac Studio Ultra was substantially higher. That stated, I have absolutely no regrets.

I also can't say I've pushed the Ultra hard enough that a Max would have been huffing and puffing. I think a lot of folks will be just fine with the Max. Maybe I would have been, too. But, still, no regrets. I'm getting a lot of work done very efficiently, and loving the new machine!

I am keeping my second 5,1 12 core 3.33 around, just in case. If someone wanted to pay me more than $500 for it, I'd be tempted to sell. But, absent that, the old Mac will continue to sit on its shelf above the Mac Studio in the machine closet. It is fun to show clients the two Macs and ask which is the more powerful one running the studio. Mac-savvy clients know the answer, but more than a few clients have been shocked to learn the truth.


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## Eulenauge66 (Oct 31, 2022)

My Max is the best desktop computer I ever owned (I was on PC before). I even got only 32GB, while being a professional composer and producer running heavy projects. All my orchestral libraries are on a PC server, though.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 31, 2022)

mscp said:


> If you have a lot of old projects that you need to constantly go back to (for any reason), my tip is to get an Intel Mac Pro (2019) - based on my personal experience.



I dunno, to me this seems like a suboptimal time to part with $10,000+ on an Intel machine if you can possibly help it.

But presumably you have specific reasons for suggesting that. Old projects should normally open on the Mac Studio.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 31, 2022)

This just depends on the use case. For a full time working pro, I would not hesitate on the Intel box at all, personally...that is what I would do also. I am not a working pro and can't justify that price either. hahaha. But it will be a very relevant machine for at least 5 more years and in my view still represents the best hardware currently available from Apple, and that will probably remain the case for 1-2 more years. After that may be another story.


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## mscp (Oct 31, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> But presumably you have specific reasons for suggesting that. Old projects should normally open on the Mac Studio.


I tried. It was a disaster.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 31, 2022)

mscp said:


> I tried. It was a disaster.


That sucks. Was it the DAW, plug-ins, or both?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 31, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> This just depends on the use case. For a full time working pro, I would not hesitate on the Intel box at all, personally...that is what I would do also. I am not a working pro and can't justify that price either. hahaha. But it will be a very relevant machine for at least 5 more years and in my view still represents the best hardware currently available from Apple, and that will probably remain the case for 1-2 more years. After that may be another story.


Well, I’ve posted my opinion many times: it’s way more money than a human needs to spend for a professional studio machine.

And I’m not sure it’s the best hardware they make, at least not by every standard.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 31, 2022)

Well everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and as I said; use cases vary


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## John Zuker (Nov 1, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> My plan had been to keep my 5,1 Mac Pro running just so I wouldn't lose some older software I thought I needed, but after a couple of weeks I realized I was never going to bother starting that machine up.
> 
> So I up and sold it. Net cost (i.e. the difference between what I paid and sold it for) for a machine I used all day long for 5-3/4 years: $750.


This is the most encouraging part. I figured I'd have to keep running the ol' cheese grater for several months concurrently with the new Mac, while getting everything to work smoothly and as dependably.


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## HCMarkus (Nov 1, 2022)

mscp said:


> I tried. It was a disaster.


No such experience here... On my Mac Studio, I've been opening Digital Performer projects of varying vintage started on my 5,1 Mac Pro *without any issue whatsoever. *In fact, I switched a scoring project from the 5,1 to the Mac Studio in mid-stream. The only difference: everything works better, smoother and faster.

The only challenge I've encountered related to BFD; it isn't working with DP in Native Mode. However, I can run BFD when DP is running under Rosetta. So, if drums are still being written for a piece, I work on that project under Rosetta. If drums are locked, I render as audio and switch back to DP Native. New projects are using Superior Drummer or Abbey Road Drums.

EDIT: I got the latest Beta of BFD and it runs in DP Native, apparently Native as well, if the VST version is used.


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## stigc56 (Nov 1, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> New projects are using Superior Drummer or Abbey Road Drums.


Yes I had to give up on BFD too! Superior has been my goto drummer for many years, but I had quite some money invested in BFD, but can't even get in contact with the guys who made it, it's apparently a new company.


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## HCMarkus (Nov 1, 2022)

stigc56 said:


> Yes I had to give up on BFD too! Superior has been my goto drummer for many years, but I had quite some money invested in BFD, but can't even get in contact with the guys who made it, it's apparently a new company.











Latest Builds & Release Notes


This is where you can download the latest Build and Release info.




forum.bfddrums.com





Apple Silicon Native is reportedly on its way, but no solid date and its already been a long wait...



> BFD_DrewBFD Product Owner
> 7d
> 
> It’s a technical debt issue, not a business decision. People will absolutely NOT be expected to pay for M1 support. BFD3 will have full M1 support, and I am _extremely_ keen on VST3 support too. We can’t really avoid that what with Cubase 12 going in the direction it is going. I doubt we will increase the number of outputs for BFD3. Maybe for BFD4.


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## Joe Grant (Nov 1, 2022)

If you're going 64gb ....why not just go with a new M1 Max Macbook Pro with 64gb? Then you have the speed and portability if needed.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 1, 2022)

John Zuker said:


> This is the most encouraging part. I figured I'd have to keep running the ol' cheese grater for several months concurrently with the new Mac, while getting everything to work smoothly and as dependably.



It works smoothly and dependably - and you notice the difference right away - but just as a disclaimer I admit to not having brought everything over yet (just the things I use all the time).


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 1, 2022)

Joe Grant said:


> If you're going 64gb ....why not just go with a new M1 Max Macbook Pro with 64gb? Then you have the speed and portability if needed.


For me personally, it's because a laptop that wants to be right in front of you wouldn't fit my ergonomic set-up, and running a machine like that in clamshell mode would be a total waste.

But these laptops are credible desktop replacements, and if you need a portable studio machine then they're pretty impressive.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 1, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> Well everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and as I said; use cases vary


Sure, and to be clear, I agree that they're still totally viable - and then some. I just don't see the logic in buying one today unless you have a very specific reason to want an Intel machine.


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## STMICHAELS (Nov 1, 2022)

Joe Grant said:


> If you're going 64gb ....why not just go with a new M1 Max Macbook Pro with 64gb? Then you have the speed and portability if needed.


Cost potentially? Almost 4K for a Macbook pro M1 Max with 64Gb ram.


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## John Zuker (Nov 1, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It works smoothly and dependably - and you notice the difference right away - but just as a disclaimer I admit to not having brought everything over yet (just the things I use all the time).


Good opportunity to cull the herd. I have a lot of stuff I hardly use. VE Pro is the only thing I’d likely miss.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 1, 2022)

STMICHAELS said:


> Cost potentially? Almost 4K for a Macbook pro M1 Max with 64Gb ram.


Right. Last time I checked it was about $1000 more than a comparable Mac Studio - which I don't consider out of line, just something you'd want a reason to buy.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 1, 2022)

John Zuker said:


> Good opportunity to cull the herd. I have a lot of stuff I hardly use. VE Pro is the only thing I’d likely miss.


Exactly.

And VE Pro does work under Rosetta, but they haven't updated it for Apple Silicon.

Does that mean there's less of a market for it now that you can do so much on a single machine? I don't know the answer to that.


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## John Zuker (Nov 5, 2022)

So I bit the bullet, took the plunge... and all of the other violent euphemisms. Mac Studio Max (64g, 4tb SSD) arrives in a few weeks. Thanks again for your helpful advice.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 5, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Does that mean there's less of a market for it now that you can do so much on a single machine? I don't know the answer to that.



No hardly. It means vsl has some work to do. They will make it work because the ultimate vsl experience is by using it and once it works people will continue buying it.


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## John Zuker (Nov 5, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> No hardly. It means vsl has some work to do. They will make it work because the ultimate vsl experience is by using it and once it works people will continue buying it.


Looking forward to that. I'm very used to and quite enjoy the Logic/VE Pro work flow.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 6, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> No hardly. It means vsl has some work to do. They will make it work because the ultimate vsl experience is by using it and once it works people will continue buying it.


Neither of us is privy to conversations at VSL about where they're going to focus their development resources! Apple Silicon machines have been available to developers for 2-1/2 years, after all, so I don't think my question is crazy.

And is VE Pro the ultimate VSL experience? It's a brilliant piece of software that solved a lot of problems extremely elegantly when it came out, but given a choice I personally would rather run everything inside Logic on a single machine.

So far the only reason I would would need to use it on my new machine is to use old instruments on ancient Windows machines. It's possible that I'll run out of CPU or memory on the Mac Studio, but I haven't yet.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 6, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Neither of us is privy to conversations at VSL about where they're going to focus their development resources! Apple Silicon machines have been available to developers for 2-1/2 years, after all, so I don't think my question is crazy.



I didn't say your question was crazy. But VSL has stated they are working on it, no timeframe.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> And is VE Pro the ultimate VSL experience?



yes



Nick Batzdorf said:


> It's a brilliant piece of software that solved a lot of problems extremely elegantly when it came out, but given a choice I personally would rather run everything inside Logic on a single machine.



Then you should continue doing that and probably this discussion is not related to you.


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## ptram (Nov 6, 2022)

Vik said:


> Btw, bananas cost less in Norway than in California, where they can be grown easily. Maybe slavery isn't totally dead after all.


Most bananas come from South America. So, they should indeed cost much less in California than in Norway. And Norway is an expensive place in Europe. Wondering how much lower are total tax, actually, in California than in Norway.

Paolo


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## Vik (Nov 7, 2022)

ptram said:


> Wondering how much lower are total tax, actually, in California than...


They're probably a third or a fourth of the Scandinavian taxes, but that's a topic we can discuss in the Banana Price subforum.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 7, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> I didn't say your question was crazy. But VSL has stated they are working on it, no timeframe.



They may have changed their minds. I wouldn't blame them if they have.




Dewdman42 said:


> yes



I'd say their player is the ultimate VSL experience, not VE Pro.




Dewdman42 said:


> Then you should continue doing that and probably this discussion is not related to you.



You can keep things loaded between projects, but other than that I can't think of any advantage to using a host outside Logic.

The trick is to turn everything off in your Logic template and only load it when you need it.

To be clear, VE Pro is definitely a lot more efficient than Logic at hosting instrument plug-ins on Intel Macs. I'm just talking about the ideal - not having to use it or any slave machines at all.

And I haven't tested to see whether it's still more efficient on Apple Silicon, but it would be very surprising if it still is when running under Rosetta.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 7, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> They may have changed their minds. I wouldn't blame them if they have.



That is wild speculation



Nick Batzdorf said:


> I'd say their player is the ultimate VSL experience, not VE Pro.



The ultimate VSL experience is VSL player inside VePro with MirPro3D, all integrated into one environment....ie VePro. I'm not sure why you are arguing this point other then you just like to argue?




Nick Batzdorf said:


> You can keep things loaded between projects, but other than that I can't think of any advantage to using a host outside Logic.



Then don't



Nick Batzdorf said:


> To be clear, VE Pro is definitely a lot more efficient than Logic at hosting instrument plug-ins on Intel Macs. I'm just talking about the ideal - not having to use it or any slave machines at all.



You should do what works for you. 

I personally don't think VePro is actually more efficient at hosting plugins then directly in LogiPro itself and my testing has backed that up, but anyway, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. That was a rumor that was circulated around widely, in my opinion falsely...and was never a sound reason on its own to use VePro. The workflow improvements however have always been the main advantage. Also VePro imposes a larger buffer which means as long as you're ok with a bunch of extra latency you get essentially a bigger buffer then that the DAW on its own can do..and that could contribute to the narrative about it being more efficient in some way.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 7, 2022)

Dewdman, try this test:

1. Load a big EastWest Opus auto-orchestrator thing (my mind's gone blank what it's called this second), something with a lot of instruments, into Logic.

2. Enjoy it crapping out on a 5,1 unless you raise your buffer (I run everything else in Logic at a 64-sample buffer).

3. Load the same thing into VE Pro without changing anything.

4. Observe it not crapping out.

You're entitled to your opinion even though mine happens to be based on reality.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 7, 2022)

You may well have a point about MIR inside VE Pro being the ultimate VSL experience. I don't have that, though.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 7, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Dewdman, try this test:
> 
> 2. Enjoy it crapping out on a 5,1 unless you raise your buffer (I run everything else in Logic at a 64-sample buffer).



You don't if you're using VePro...VePro adds a very large buffer above and beyond whatever you are doing in your DAW.




Nick Batzdorf said:


> 3. Load the same thing into VE Pro without changing anything.
> 
> 4. Observe it not crapping out.



Bigger buffer. Of course it can. You can also use a big buffer in LogicPro if you want.




Nick Batzdorf said:


> You're entitled to your opinion even though mine happens to be based on reality.



back at ya


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 7, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You may well have a point about MIR inside VE Pro being the ultimate VSL experience. I don't have that, though.



There is that, but because all of the VSL plugins are not plugins in VePro, they are actually built into Vepro itself...and because of that there are numerous workflow improvements they are able to do with their "plugins" when used inside VePro... which are not possible when used as plugins in other DAW's.

People that are not as bought into the VSL universe would not even know about those things, nor miss them without VePro. I tend to agree with you that the main advantage for non-VSL-instrument use is the workflow of being able to leave your orchestra template loaded into VePro while switching different DAW projects in and out. That is actually a pretty major reason. But that is, in my opinion, the main workflow enhancement. That and the tighter integration with VSL plugins which are built into it.

The other reason is if you need more RAM or more CPU then your daw machine alone can provide, which is less and less of an issue as time goes on for an awful lot of people. But people that want to keep super humongous orch templates with thousands of tracks of samples loaded and ready to use on a whim can't live without VePro.

VePro is not going anywhere. But VSL is definitely a little behind the curve on getting it upped to Apple Silicon, I'm with you there.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 7, 2022)

Yeah, their plug-ins are very good.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 7, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> You don't if you're using VePro...VePro adds a very large buffer above and beyond whatever you are doing in your DAW


It's 2x the host buffer by default - total. At least I'm pretty sure that's the total, i.e. it's like using another audio interface.

I don't think it's just the buffer, it's also the way it uses the cores compared to Logic processing everything live on a single one. You can raise the buffer in Logic and get more mileage out of it, but historically VE Pro really has been more efficient than anything else.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 7, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It's 2x the host buffer by default.


no. That is even MORE. what you are referring to is related only to live mode. There is a very large always on buffer added in VePro during mix down without live mode. If you don't believe me ask their devs.




Nick Batzdorf said:


> I don't think it's just the buffer, it's also the way it uses the cores compared to Logic processing everything live on a single one. You can raise the buffer in Logic and get more mileage out of it, but historically VE Pro really has been more efficient than anything else.


I disagree. I did tests between LogicPro and LogicPro+Vepro and LogicPro alone won the test.

I am tired of this pointless debate Nick. Believe as you wish and have a good night.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 7, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> I am tired of this debate Nick


No you're not.


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## Sergievsky (Nov 7, 2022)

When I was having trouble with Digital Performer 10/11 and about to give up on that DAW, I decided to update my VEPro and offload my plugs/vi‘s to it. Huge difference. DP has since fixed the issues, but it made a believer in VEP and whatever it is they do. They‘re quite a bit late porting to AS, but I would think when they do there is still an advantage to using it in the same machine to help getting the most performance out of a multicore Max/Ultra.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 7, 2022)

In the comparison testing I did a few years ago, LogicPro and StudioOne both outperformed when used alone, compared to using together with VePro. DP and Cubase both performed better when using VePro. Later on an update to Cubase improved it. Perhaps the same for DP.

There are numerous things that could contribute to this, including buffer sizes and how the DAW's are actually used or bugs in a particular release. But the categorical statement that VePro uses the cores better is patently mythological based on nothing but per speculation.

In terms of work flow...VePro offers a lot.

But hey, if you need to believe that VePro is a magic machine that can do things with the cores that Apple, MOTU and Steinberg can't seem to figure out on their own...by all means...believe what you want and use it!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 8, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> There are numerous things that could contribute to this, including buffer sizes and how the DAW's are actually used or bugs in a particular release. But the categorical statement that VePro uses the cores better is patently mythological based on nothing but per speculation.
> 
> In terms of work flow...VePro offers a lot.



Logic runs live channels - the ones you're playing or recording - on a single core. It's a single process, VE Pro isn't.

There is nothing categorical, mythological, buggy, argumentative, or incompetent on Apple's or any other developer's part about that.

Now, workflow is subjective. I personally would rather not deal with a separate mixer if it weren't necessary, but then I'm old enough to remember what it was like working with a Pro Tools TDM mixer, a Logic one, and a hardware one. Oy gevalt.

It's more than enough having to figure out loopback in my audio interface's mixer when I need to do that!

On the other hand, VE Pro makes slave machines as seamless as possible, because they behave just like separate programs running on the host machine.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 8, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Logic runs live channels - the ones you're playing or recording - on a single core. It's a single process, VE Pro isn't.



You are conflating several things here incorrectly.

First you have no knowledge whatsoever that VePro is spreading the load of a single plugin across cores (unless the plugin is doing it on its own). You have absolutely no way to detect that and no knowledge of the internal architecture...as such you are speculating and spreading misninformation and myth.

Secondly, VePro introduces a much larger buffer when the plugin is not in live mode. Yes. Veprop detects when the track is live and operates with less latency...(times the multiplier you mentioned). When its not in live mode the entire plugin/server use a much much larger buffer...which adds quite a lot of latency but you don't notice it because you are mixing down...

I have conversed with VSL's lead dev on this topic.

You can observe how much latency is being added by looking at the lag time between when you hear audio from VePro and when you actually see the LED meters in VePro..they are totally out of sync by a wide amount when you're in mix down mode...and that is the size of the additional buffer.




Nick Batzdorf said:


> There is nothing categorical, mythological, buggy, argumentative, or incompetent on Apple's or any other developer's part about that.



Yes you are spreading misinformation and myth. Unless you want to give us some insider info and knowledge that you specifically know about how these different products are actually architected, you don't have any idea whatsoever how the cores are handled in any of them. Pure speculation.




Nick Batzdorf said:


> Now, workflow is subjective. I personally would rather not deal with a separate mixer if it weren't necessary, but then I'm old enough to remember what it was like working with a Pro Tools TDM mixer, a Logic one, and a hardware one. Oy gevalt.



Then don't. Nobody says you have to and everyone is entitled to use whatever workflow works best for them.


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## colony nofi (Nov 8, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Logic runs live channels - the ones you're playing or recording - on a single core. It's a single process, VE Pro isn't.
> 
> There is nothing categorical, mythological, buggy, argumentative, or incompetent on Apple's or any other developer's part about that.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately @Nick Batzdorf thats not how it works. VE Pro still runs a real-time audio system that relies on single core (core zero) timing. Every single real time audio system on Macs and PC's rely on single core performance no matter what. Increasing buffers places much less resource intensity on this single core - but in general doesn't give much extra performance to any parallel instructions being done - as they are done in little "packets". The math just gets done as needed. Parallel in real-time audio if bloody hard. I've been involved (only as a consultant to the software architect) with dev of real-time audio systems for immersive audio (Devs from SB / Flux / Iosonos).

As for why there are performance differences between samples run inside VEP and DAW's, its super tricky to quantify/qualify, given as @Dewdman42 has pointed out, its kind of an apples and oranges comparison. The buffer differences (how long the single core on the host machine has to wait until it processes the next bunch of audio) are enough to make comparisons almost impossible.
Then add in things like the cubase engine which adds buffers to any Channel not being recorded if you wish (which significantly improves performance) and ditto to logic if memory serves me well (but I have not personally looked into logic testing / Audio engine for many years)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 8, 2022)

Colony, this is Logic with one track going:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 8, 2022)

Here's Logic with the same Omnisphere program playing the same MIDI, only this time it's running inside VE Pro instead of Logic.






I was going to show Activity Monitor as well, but the difference is less stark (it's still not quite as high, but it's running under Rosetta and Logic is running natively, so it doesn't mean much).

The point is that by running plug-ins outside of Logic, you prevent it from overloading a single processor - because Logic . So whatever is going on, this is why it's more efficient to use VE Pro sometimes, or at least it has been historically.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 8, 2022)

First thing...the performance meter you are showing in LogicPro does NOT display CPU usage, nor core usage....it displays "thread" usage...and its only the part that LogicPro itself is using...not necessarily the overall impact on the CPU.

Secondly...there is percentage readout in the lower right corner of the VePro window which will show you where the CPU usage went when you moved Omnisphere to VePro.

In order to make a meaningful comparison you need to actually look at the overall system cpu usage in both scenarios.

carry on...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 8, 2022)

Logic runs live tracks on a single core, as I said.

I wouldn't give a shit if dewdman weren't constantly accusing *me* of being the one who's argumentative. 

Dewdman: Logic's behavior in this way is well known, not something I pulled out of my ass just to annoy you personally! It's actually something worth knowing if you use Logic.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 8, 2022)

you keep quoting me and then writing false things Nick. I will always respond when you quote me. Sorry if you don't like it, you should gain a better understanding about it before you get so angry though.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 8, 2022)

and again, that meter does not show cores. It shows threads. You still have not demonstrated that Logic is isolating that track to only one core. Though, we actually know that it probably is...but probably so does VePro.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 8, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> rst thing...the performance meter you are showing in LogicPro does NOT explain CPU usage, nor core usage....it displays "thread" usage...and its only the part that LogicPro itself is using...not necessarily the overall impact on the CPU.


First thing - and last thing! That's the point!

Overall CPU usage only matters when you run out of horsepower and spike any one of your cores. And you can sometimes prevent that from happening if you use VE Pro - at least that's how it has worked sometimes in the past.

Dumbshit civilian users like me don't know threads from shinola; we just know when we hear clicks.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 8, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> you keep quoting me and then writing false things Nick. I will always respond when you quote me. Sorry if you don't like it, you should gain a better understanding about it before you get so angry though.


I'm not the least big angry. You'll know very well if I am.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 8, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The point is that by running plug-ins outside of Logic, you prevent it from overloading a single processor - because Logic . So whatever is going on, this is why it's more efficient to use VE Pro sometimes, or at least it has been historically.



false

Well, VePro itself is running on its own thread(s) seperate from LogicPro...so by virtue of the fact that you have two programs running, you now have more cores being hit...along with more overhead to run two programs...so.... But VePro is most likely also running Omnisphere on a single thread, just as LogicPro was... The Plugin itself is still on a single thread.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 8, 2022)

Okay, fair enough.


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## colony nofi (Nov 8, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Okay, fair enough.


Also - given how real time audio works, logic will still have to WAIT for VEP to finish processing a packet of data. So, if that packet isn't complete, logic WILL have dreaded clicks and pops.
And this may well happen before the core that logic is working on is even at 50%.
Depending on what is going on with the timing core that VEP is using.

In real world, this means that it is possible for you to both increase some performance metrics, AND decrease some when using a system like VEP on the same machine as your DAW.

Its bloody confusing. And so is the whole concept of realtime audio programming - even before you bring multiple cores / threads to the table.

*EDIT*
I'm wrong - but I won't edit my message above. I will provide some extra details though. Just off the phone to a colleague.
Logic's core zero does not need to wait for VEP's real time audio in the same way that it waits for its own - WHEN it is only dealing with midi out and audio back.
Of course.
Brain fart.

However, it is possible for other parts of the audio system to hit bottle necks / speed bumps before core zero reaches 50%. Its just not the real-time engine inside VEP stepping in to rain on the parade of logic (or cubase or whatever) realtime audio engine. 
I didn't have the time to chat in more depth - we have a proper work catchup on next week - and will see if I can steal 10mins of the meeting to get up to speed.


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## colony nofi (Nov 8, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The point is that by running plug-ins outside of Logic, you prevent it from overloading a single processor - because Logic . So whatever is going on, this is why it's more efficient to use VE Pro sometimes, or at least it has been historically.


A quick note.
VEP is functioning as an instrument more than a plugin. In cubase land - its acting far more like a VSTi than a VST - and they cause different behaviours in terms of the real-time audio system.

In general, if you have a plugin that is processing audio on a track in a DAW, the DAW needs to wait for that plugin to finish what it is doing before it can continue with other calculations on that track. Its a serial based system. Even when going off and using a send, things need to WAIT when summing back together again on another buss. DAW audio systems will only ever be a hybrid parallel system - and never completely parallel (at least with current thinking...)

With VEP (in the mode we are describing) we are not sending it real time audio to process. We are just sending midi - so it is working more like an instrument hosted inside of your DAW than a plugin. Now, there's obviously very intricate timing required for sending midi, but its much easier timing for the system to handle than doing countless FFT's on audio data packets.

The audio system however does need to manage to play the audio back in the right place with everything else in your DAW. If it is late, it'll be out of time. At that moment, if VEP takes longer to do its audio calculations than the packets of audio inside logic, you will get a stutter.

And this then opens up the wonderful can of worms around buffers (the size of the audio packets being processed in realtime. The larger the buffer, the longer the CPU can wait before it needs to start processing the next packet. This is simplification, but I think you get the picture.

Cubase gets around this using ASIO guard, which cleverly inserts additional buffers to audio which is KNOWN (ie, not real time) - meaning it can process that audio over a longer time and place less pressure on the CPU. I believe logic does a similar thing. It can give midi data to a VSTI before its usually needed, and then just wait until the audio is needed for it to be played back correctly. (it doesn't do that dynamically - its AFAI remember, a fixed amount).

VEP just does the same thing in a slightly different way... although I don't know the exact mechanism and have not spoken direct to people who have managed to explain it to me. It uses multiple buffers though - as can be seen by how long it takes for a sound to come back from VEP when a midi note is sent compared to what happens natively in logic / cubase / daw. 

It doesn't dynamically change those buffers, as it has no way of knowing what midi data is being played in live vs coming from a DAW midi track (unlike logic and cubase which can tell!)

So it runs at a disadvantage in that respect - it NEEDS greater buffers in order to maintain performance as ALL tracks run through the same buffer settings.

There are so many other tricks and little bits at play - and this is over simplified - and also I'm tired so I'm making lots of mistakes. But basically, DAW playback is very different to DAW + VEPro playback. And by using additional buffers, you are gaining some performance advantages, at the cost of higher buffer settings (and all that means when playing in notes.)
As nick pointed out though, the main timing core for logic can be running at a much lower usage percentage when instruments are hosted in another program. I am NOT sure that the same core is still not somewhat required to be used by VEP or not. 
The total CPU usage can be LOWER using VEP + Logic, but only due to the additional buffers (which is the trade off!). To run with the same midi timing, CPU usage goes up (as you need to lower the buffer usage to maintain the same timing)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 9, 2022)

Thanks colony.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 9, 2022)

Colony I like a lot of what you're saying except for one thing...the daw does have to wait on VSTi (or in this case AUi) plugins just as it would have to process FX plugins in a chain. It doesn't matter that its midi or audio at that point in the chain. The first FX plugin can't do a damn thing until the instrument plugin has completed its job of filling the buffer. That is why generally the entire channel strip can be accomplished on a single thread and there is no point to allocate more threads to a single mixer channel, including instrument plugins. It may be possible in some threading strategy where a thread passes some midi to VSTi...then the thread goes inactive for a while (allowing other threads to use the cores), and then comes back later to get the results from the VSTi. There would be overhead associated with that kind of approach also, but the idea is to keep the cores busy, you never want a core sitting around idle when there are threads waiting their turn. This would also be true for FX processing no different from instruments. And no different fro VePro either..except that VePro is handling its computation of the buffer in another process (or server).

The use of multiple threads and how many to create has more to do with the best way to handle many mixing channels at once. You still don't want to actually create too many threads, because there is overhead associated with too many threads also. That is why, for example, the recommendation of how many threads is usually something like around 2x the number of cores. If you have 5x the number of tracks compared to the number of cores...then obviously you have a lot of tracks sitting around waiting their turn in a thread queue...and the threads are sharing time with the N number of cores. 

More cores would let you increase the number of threads, etc..and process more tracks... But the point is....each track (or rather mixer channel), basically happens on a single thread...and there is nothing VePro can do about that beyond what DAW's already do. In fact VePro running on the same system is just causing more waiting to happen as it has to share time with the N number of cores and has lots of its own overhead also. Its just causing even more wait time for each track basically.

You are correct that VePro functions as an instrument plugin. and if that instrument plugin can't do what it needs to do and fill the buffer in time, leaving still enough time for the rest of the plugins on that mixer channel to do whatever they need to do to the buffer also after the instrument plugin finishes.....then you get a pop or click.

VePro obviously adds some overhead to fill that buffer compared to processing the same instrument directly inside the DAW. As to why some DAW's are more efficient than others is open to many different possible reasons, including different buffering strategies, etc. LogicPro is actually quite efficient on its own! And most definitely I have found in the past that adding VePro DID help Cubase and DP to run a bit more efficiently. I found the opposite to be true with LogicPro and StudioOne. There are any number of reasons why DP or Cubase would be slamming the CPU or causing some bottleneck, so I am not trying to say that VePro always produces worse performance then DAW alone....in those examples...it apparently helped. But its not categorically true to say that VePro is somehow a miracle core operator that will help any DAW do better than it could alone.

and if one tries to run LogicPro with a buffer of 64 and then compare that to VePro, which imposes a really large buffer behind the scenes... then its an apples vs oranges comparison. I contend that this larger buffer is what is mainly giving the DAW's more breathing room. The AUi/VSTi reports a larger latency value to the DAW and the DAW enforces its PDC..which basically applies whatever strategy to calculate things ahead of time and what not... I personally think LogicPro is doing that already on its own....which is why adding VePro to LogicPro doesn't really help much, in fact it causes more CPU overhead. 

It still may be worth it though for the workflow advantages!


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## colony nofi (Nov 9, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> Colony I like a lot of what you're saying except for one thing...the daw does have to wait on VSTi (or in this case AUi) plugins just as it would have to process FX plugins in a chain. It doesn't matter that its midi or audio at that point in the chain. The first FX plugin can't do a damn thing until the instrument plugin has completed its job of filling the buffer. That is why generally the entire channel strip can be accomplished on a single thread and there is no point to allocate more threads to a single mixer channel, including instrument plugins. It may be possible in some threading strategy where a thread passes some midi to VSTi...then the thread goes inactive for a while (allowing other threads to use the cores), and then comes back later to get the results from the VSTi. There would be overhead associated with that kind of approach also, but the idea is to keep the cores busy, you never want a core sitting around idle when there are threads waiting their turn. This would also be true for FX processing no different from instruments. And no different fro VePro either..except that VePro is handling its computation of the buffer in another process (or server).
> 
> The use of multiple threads and how many to create has more to do with the best way to handle many mixing channels at once. You still don't want to actually create too many threads, because there is overhead associated with too many threads also. That is why, for example, the recommendation of how many threads is usually something like around 2x the number of cores. If you have 5x the number of tracks compared to the number of cores...then obviously you have a lot of tracks sitting around waiting their turn in a thread queue...and the threads are sharing time with the N number of cores.
> 
> ...


Ah this is where nuance is important, and I was too tired to express things well.

But Yes, you've got it. 

And even a lot of the multi-core stuff is as I understand it - although again there's some nuance around the "single track for single core" which isn't quite what is going on under the hood.

If anyone wants an excellent read, there was a thread around 7 or so years ago on KVR that had some incredible information, and I've had the pleasure of talking with a major DAW dev who said to me the two devs chatting "covered off most of the multi-threaded / low latency stuff off extremely well"








KVR Forum: is a multicore cpu and mutithreading actually useful at low latency settings? - DSP and Plug-in Development Forum


KVR Audio Forum - is a multicore cpu and mutithreading actually useful at low latency settings? - DSP and Plug-in Development Forum




www.kvraudio.com





Back to the DAW waiting for VEP in the same way it waits for VST's. Its not quite the same.
VEP doesn't need to be constrained to the same strict realtime audio processing as the DAW - it has the ability to work backwards in time. As it happens, it kinda HAS to do this in order to allow for proper synchronisation (especially when running on separate computers). So while it is working within the quantum of a buffer - it is able (and does) request additional buffers to maintain glitch free audio timing. It needs to maintain timing within itself (in a buffer) as well as the buffer of the DAW - which are - but code necessity - different sets of timing. 

When recording it realtime, the audio comes back LATE compared to the rest of the DAW (as it uses multiple buffers). There is absolutely nothing you can do about that, because in record mode VEP does not have a way of getting the midi data early. Thus my correction above. 

"Logic's core zero does not need to wait for VEP's real time audio in the same way that it waits for its own"

Logic doesn't fall over because VEPro's audio is late. The audio is just late, and is summed in a later buffer than would occur if VEPro was realtime. VEPro is only very sorta kinda realtime. 

By its nature, the audio is late compared to the audio inside the DAW. And the user just deals with that however they wish... by changing their playing, by having the midi data played back by a track early etc etc.

There's many other plugins that cause similar things to happen. Thus different behaviours depending on how automatic latency compensation is handled in different audio engines...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 9, 2022)

And yet VE Pro's timing is nuts-on accurate (that is, consistent). I was actually nerdy enough to confirm that when it first came out.


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## colony nofi (Nov 9, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> And yet VE Pro's timing is nuts-on accurate (that is, consistent). I was actually nerdy enough to confirm that when it first came out.


Oh yes its accurate. It does it by adding buffers!


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 9, 2022)

Vepro is sample accurate. It reports the added latency to the host and the host will use plugin delay compensation to provide sample accurate timing


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## colony nofi (Nov 9, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> Vepro is sample accurate. It reports the added latency to the host and the host will use plugin delay compensation to provide sample accurate timing


Yes. When I said "late" - I mean in response to you hitting a key on a keyboard - its just a longer "delay" due to the additional buffers used. Its not late in so far as its designed to work that way.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 9, 2022)

right. But also its important to point out that VePro is able to detect when its in live mode and then it doesn't impose the same super large buffer...that is when it uses that multiplier pulldown menu to determine if there should be any additional latency added or not. If you set it to none, there is no additional buffering.


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## John Zuker (Dec 12, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Exactly.
> 
> And VE Pro does work under Rosetta, but they haven't updated it for Apple Silicon.
> 
> Does that mean there's less of a market for it now that you can do so much on a single machine? I don't know the answer to that.


Following up, I just put the new rig to its first real world test, a cue for an animated project which needed a big orchestra sound plus classic rock band. So there were a lot of moving parts, and a lot of notes. Granted the UA Apollo carried some of the plug in processing burden, but the Mac Studio Max worked great.
Look ma, no VE-Pro.
Lots of instances of Kontakt, some Opus, a fair amount of plug-ins besides UAD, like Slate, Echo Boy, Liquid Sonics etc. All native, no Rosetta, just to see if I could. Have to say that there was one inexplicable spike in the Logic processing meter that happened at one specific downbeat, but only when I played the cue from the beginning- but no audible glitch. 
All told, I am quite impressed, and relieved, at how well it did on its maiden voyage.


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## HCMarkus (Dec 12, 2022)

stigc56 said:


> Yes I had to give up on BFD too! Superior has been my goto drummer for many years, but I had quite some money invested in BFD, but can't even get in contact with the guys who made it, it's apparently a new company.


There is a BFD Beta that runs on Apple Silicon Native if the VST version is used. Here is s link to the Forum. I think you have to post a few times to get permission to PM Drew, the guy with the inside scoop.









BFD3


Forum support for BFD3.4 software.




forum.bfddrums.com


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2022)

John Zuker said:


> Following up, I just put the new rig to its first real world test,


Glad it's working well!

Even in the fake world, I'm still astonished at how fast everyday things happen - and that's after three months with this machine.


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## Emanuel Fróes (Dec 13, 2022)

I am with the Ultra 128 GB RAM 4T since last week! I say 3 things first


- multitasking is like a joke
- the silence of the computer is underrated, it is like a matter of health, game changer
- Tasks envolving ssd are not so fast as you may expect.But looks a 20% faster. HEre I got surprised!

this is my debut piece with the new computer ; )


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## Emanuel Fróes (Dec 13, 2022)

stigc56 said:


> Hi
> Today I returned from a hike in Norway to find that my Mac Pro 6.1 can't boot!!
> There have been numerous issues with my workhorse (bought 2017) lately and the heat is rather problematic in these time with raising prices on electricity.
> Now I wonder if it's time to a buy a new Mac: Max or Ultra? My old Mac Pro 6.1. (8 core) has 128 Gb, but I think I can live with 64, to be honest. I use it for my projects - Cubase, Studio One and Dorico - sometimes large orchestral - lots of VSL, 2 servers - with around 80 tracks, a lot of virtual instruments, but often smaller and most of the time Dorico.
> ...


I guess, the best you can do is to send your heaviest project to someone that has the computer you want to buy, and your libraries. But basically I think so: with Apple, more money means better. Just have to decide if it is something to carry with you or use at home, and the size is a personal thing maybe.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> - Tasks envolving ssd are not so fast as you may expect.But looks a 20% faster. HEre I got surprised!


I'm not quite sure what you're saying, i.e. 20% faster than what?

On my machine, Blackmagic Disk Speed Test consistently measures the internal storage as reading and writing at least 5500 MB/s vs. 2500 MB/s for an external m.2 SSD in a Thunderbolt 4 case.

If you mean regular SATA SSDs, yes, they're still the same as before - although even that is a huge advance over spinning drives!

And yeah, the silence is important to your health, at least to mine. I was literally getting a headache from the computer + one external drive when I moved everything into the garage on the other side of my office/studio 25 years ago.

The Mac Studio is 3' away from me now and I've never heard it.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2022)

One thing I wonder is whether the larger capacity internal storage affects the transfer speed, i.e. it's faster. I remember reading a review a while ago that seemed to think it was, but I don't know how that would work.


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## Emanuel Fróes (Dec 13, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I'm not quite sure what you're saying, i.e. 20% faster than what?
> 
> On my machine, Blackmagic Disk Speed Test consistently measures the internal storage as reading and writing at least 5500 MB/s vs. 2500 MB/s for an external m.2 SSD in a Thunderbolt 4 case.
> 
> ...


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## Emanuel Fróes (Dec 13, 2022)

WHen Kontakt loads an instruments looks 50% faster than before. But i did not do anz test, just an impression


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> WHen Kontakt loads an instruments looks 50% faster than before. But i did not do anz test, just an impression


Yeah, it's just a benchmark test. The main point is that opening programs is ridiculously fast.

It takes three seconds to launch Logic.


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## river angler (Dec 13, 2022)

A question for the OP: Out of curiosity what's been your largest track count to date on a project?


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## Emanuel Fróes (Dec 13, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Yeah, it's just a benchmark test. The main point is that opening programs is ridiculously fast.
> 
> It takes three seconds to launch Logic.


without project ?


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## Emanuel Fróes (Dec 13, 2022)

I try to make my mac book be recongized as a display on mac studio. Any idea?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> without project ?


Right, my empty starting point template, certainly not my big one.

Logic itself. Three seconds instead of 15 - 20 off SATA 2 SSDs on my old machine.

Affinity Photo launches in two seconds vs. 30 on my old machine.


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## Emanuel Fróes (Dec 13, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Right, my empty starting point template, certainly not my big one.
> 
> Logic itself. Three seconds instead of 15 - 20 off SATA 2 SSDs on my old machine.
> 
> Affinity Photo launches in two seconds vs. 30 on my old machine.


it is anyway awesome. Thos delays cretaes fatigue in the long run, and make we think twice before doing something


i have deep trauma of cronic delays and freezes haha SO i maxed out on Apple this time. Avoiding expensive women also helped a lot


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## stigc56 (Dec 14, 2022)

I have been away from the "DAW world" for a time. I ended up with buying the Max with 64gb. I'm very happy with that, but I am missing the AS support from VSL, which is my main library supplier. 
I have 4 old SSD - about 6 tb - in a Blackmagic dock, they don't run any faster than before: 360 - 380 Mgb/sec. I havn't tried to connect my 2 servers yet, but that will be the next.
I have been writing many scores and Dorico and the Studio Max combo is working great!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 14, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> Avoiding expensive women also helped a lot


Yeah, I got a good price when I bought my wife.


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## Emanuel Fróes (Dec 14, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Yeah, I got a good price when I bought my wife.


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## Emanuel Fróes (Dec 25, 2022)

I am curious to know how much RAM are people using for large tamplates on mac studio? I use now 100 gb Ram to bounce tracks of a relatively full orchestral movement of 3 minutes


Also did you notice that the mac studio takes more ram when idle, than the old mac? Some people say this is normal, it is like the computer being "comfortable" taking the ram available.


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