# TUTORIAL: Applying Early Reflections to get THAT SOUND ;-)



## SvK

TUTORIAL: Applying Early Reflections to get THAT SOUND 

Let's take a Dry (important) Bass Clarinet.

1) Set up a Altiverb Bus with the 8m Todd AO

2) In Altiverb turn off Direct, Placement and Tail...ONLY Leave on the EarlReflections....mix is 100% WET.

3)Send dry Bass Clarinet to that Early Reflection

4)Using a level meter make sure that Early Reflection Buss is circa 2 db LOUDER than the Dry Clarinet sound.

That's It!


Here is the example file........first you'll hear dry Clari, then dry clari+Early Refl., then dry clari+Early Refl.+Tail

Click on "Bass_Clari_ER.mp3.zip"
http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/wa/default?user=svonkampen&templatefn=FileSharing1.html&xmlfn=TKDocument.1.xml&sitefn=RootSite.xml&aff=consumer&cty=US&lang=en (http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/File ... US&amp;lang=en)


PS: For Violins and Violas, use the 3m early reflection.....and on these the relationship is the Early Reflec. is circa 6db LOWER than dry Dry Violins.......

you get the idea...notice how dialing in the Early Reflections correctly on the Bass Clari brought out the low-end? Just how it is in reality (now you don't need to EQ, nature did it for you)

SvK


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## Niah

*Re: TUTORIAL: Applyng Early Reflections to get THAT SOUND *

Nice post Steven, this is really helpful.


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## Rob Elliott

*Re: TUTORIAL: Applyng Early Reflections to get THAT SOUND *

Always look forward to your teaching examples Svk and your clear understanding of space creation / mixing. :D 

Following this logic would you set the brass at the 11m mics and run them about 4-6 db more on the ER bus than the source bus (on the various meters)?

Of course season to taste - material dependent.


(would you still pan the tails away from the pan of the source (as mentioned in another thread)?


Thanks again.

Rob


(btw - Altiverb using Todd AO - single best purchase I have made in the last 2 years - no question. Gives a 'facelift' to everything - especially the strings).


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## SvK

*Re: TUTORIAL: Applyng Early Reflections to get THAT SOUND *

That's exactly right 

BUt I backed off from the ER a tad with the Brass and Basses (to taste like you said)

Keep in mind to "listen" to the samples......Apass1, Epic Horns have alot of ER smear in them, so a little less on them.........

Your theory is correct though!!!

ps: I gave my Todd Tails a 4db boost @ 4000Hz BTW.....

Ohhh last thing : on the TailOnly Busses adjust the pre-delay to accommodate for the ER's........I think I dialed in 3m=50ms, 8m=70ms, 12m=80ms.....so adjust them so that the tails kick in right after ER subsides......

SvK


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## Rob Elliott

*Re: TUTORIAL: Applyng Early Reflections to get THAT SOUND *

Great Svk - wonderful follow up notes. The 4k boost is probably smart - I'll give that a try.


The 'pre-delay' idea is solid - hadn't even thought to do that.


Thanks again.


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## Rob Elliott

*Re: TUTORIAL: Applyng Early Reflections to get THAT SOUND *



SvK @ Fri Apr 04 said:


> That's exactly right
> 
> BUt I backed off from the ER a tad with the Brass and Basses (to taste like you said)
> 
> Keep in mind to "listen" to the samples......Apass1, Epic Horns have alot of ER smear in them, so a little less on them.........
> 
> Your theory is correct though!!!
> 
> ps: I gave my Todd Tails a 4db boost @ 4000Hz BTW.....
> 
> Ohhh last thing : on the TailOnly Busses adjust the pre-delay to accommodate for the ER's........I think I dialed in 3m=50ms, 8m=70ms, 12m=80ms.....so adjust them so that the tails kick in right after ER subsides......
> 
> SvK



SvK -

Working with this idea and wanted to ask a quick question or two.

For the 'tails' AV instances I have the early refl turned to about -6.5 db - what are you finding the best setting there?


...and related... the idea of 

3m=50ms, 8m=70ms, 12m=80ms.....so adjust them so that the tails kick in right after ER subsides......

how can you 'listen' for the early refl time? My first impression of setting these three tails to the above is that I get more 'depth' the mix. Dialing in these three to something less gives me more definition but of course less depth.

Thanks in advance for you reply Svk.


Rob


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## SvK

Rob, you misundertand me.....

6 altiverb instances:

In 3 of them the only thing activated is the ERs

In the other 3 the only thing activated is the tails.....


So flutes for example would have 2 send knobs....one sending to the ER instance and the other to the Tail instance........


SvK


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## Rob Elliott

SvK @ Mon Apr 07 said:


> Rob, you misundertand me.....
> 
> 6 altiverb instances:
> 
> In 3 of them the only thing activated is the ERs
> 
> In the other 3 the only thing activated is the tails.....
> 
> 
> So flutes for example would have 2 send knobs....one sending to the ER instance and the other to the Tail instance........
> 
> 
> SvK




Oh for sure that is what I have set up - I just had the tails set up with the ER on but lower volume set by 6-7 db. :oops: 


Tomorrow when I get into the studio I'll be sure to turn the ER off on the tails and set the 'predelay' on the tail to 50,70, and 80 - thanks Svk for straightening me out on this.

All the best,


Rob


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## wonshu

Did you ever try achieving the same using Logics Space Designer?

And if so, are there IRs out there that make this effect possible in Space Designer?

Thanks and best
Hans


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## SvK

Make it 70 80 90


Also on winds the ER should be circa 1 db LOWER than direct stem



wonshu....I am using Space Designer........I have versions of the Altiverb instances for Space Designer.........I can't share them on this site.......

I got into trouble some time ago for doing do....

SvK


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## Rob Elliott

Thanks on this Svk


Make it 70 80 90 




Rob


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## Jack Weaver

Hi SvK,

What do you do for orchestral basses & percussion?

Love the thread! Thanks for sharing this stuff with us. 


Best regards,
Jack


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## FireGS

Yes, I'm very curious about percussion, too.

I find that I use a totally different approach to Percussion, except for Cymbals and Snares. Those two seem to be very affected by improper reberm. Toms, and just big loud booms, and such can use their own, different reverb. SD2 Reverb works fine for most of its stuff. 

What do you do?


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## SvK

Jack,

My percussion palette is True Strike....so no ER's / Tails are needed as it is built-in to the samples....

Basses :

Basses are sent to the 12m Early Reflection....The ER and The Dry Stem are equal volume........dry stem is panned to circa 2pm..........

(Naturally all 3 ER stems are panned dead-center)

SvK


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## Rob Elliott

SvK @ Mon Apr 14 said:


> Jack,
> 
> My percussion palette is True Strike....so no ER's / Tails are needed as it is built-in to the samples....
> 
> Basses :
> 
> Basses are sent to the 12m Early Reflection....The ER and The Dry Stem are equal volume........dry stem is panned to circa 2pm..........
> 
> (Naturally all 3 ER stems are panned dead-center)
> 
> SvK




Thanks again Stephen. "IF" you were using VSL - and following the logic of your other instruments - how would you set up the Percussion (mics, tails and ER). Right now I am setting up the farthest mics and tails with moderate results (fine line between not enough 'room' and too swimmy.)


Thanks in advance.

Rob


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## SvK

I would send the timps an such to the 12mter ER with the ER being slightly louder than the dry stem (circa 1 to 2 db louder)

Have you tried the "Westlake" Drum room?
Sounds awesome on drums / orchestraL Percussion etc, if uyou use that then just add the 12 m Todd Tail.

SvK


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## Rob Elliott

Thanks Stephen - I'll give that a try.


All the best,


Rob


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## SvK

Rob,

Sure thing

Clinton Studios 8.3meter (ER and Tail) + Todd AO 12 meter [email protected] delay sounds terrific......

It's the bomb....

SvK


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## Rob Elliott

Clinton for percussion - very cool - I'll look at that one. I like the idea of the two tails for percussion. Give the impression of distance without being swimmy- mushy.


Thanks again.


Rob


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## SvK

The clinton is fat / short...

The add tail of Todd and your there.

SvK


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## Waywyn

Thanks for posting this!
I will try to expirement with this later on tomorrow!!


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## Waywyn

SvK @ Thu Apr 17 said:


> Remember to do all of this sending Parallel...NOT serial
> 
> ...that will sound totally wrong.....
> 
> What I mean to say is do NOT have the Clinton followed by the Todd Tail......
> 
> 
> Both get placed on "seperate" busses
> 
> 
> VERY IMPORTANT
> 
> SvK



Hey Svon, I get the whole idea but dont understand why you put Altiverbs ER and the AV tails on two different busses?
Why does it sound different when opening two AV instances on one bus - one after each other?


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## Ashermusic

Waywyn @ Thu Apr 17 said:


> SvK @ Thu Apr 17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Remember to do all of this sending Parallel...NOT serial
> 
> ...that will sound totally wrong.....
> 
> What I mean to say is do NOT have the Clinton followed by the Todd Tail......
> 
> 
> Both get placed on "seperate" busses
> 
> 
> VERY IMPORTANT
> 
> SvK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Svon, I get the whole idea but dont understand why you put Altiverbs ER and the AV tails on two different busses?
> Why does it sound different when opening two AV instances on one bus - one after each other?
Click to expand...


Because you can individually control the amount you send to each instead of having to do it globally within each GUI.

If I buy the concept, I buy the execution.


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## Waywyn

Ashermusic @ Thu Apr 17 said:


> Waywyn @ Thu Apr 17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SvK @ Thu Apr 17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Remember to do all of this sending Parallel...NOT serial
> 
> ...that will sound totally wrong.....
> 
> What I mean to say is do NOT have the Clinton followed by the Todd Tail......
> 
> 
> Both get placed on "seperate" busses
> 
> 
> VERY IMPORTANT
> 
> SvK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Svon, I get the whole idea but dont understand why you put Altiverbs ER and the AV tails on two different busses?
> Why does it sound different when opening two AV instances on one bus - one after each other?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because you can individually control the amount you send to each instead of having to do it globally within each GUI.
> 
> If I buy the concept, I buy the execution.
Click to expand...


Oh, sorry, when I hear busses I am thinking of groups and not send/returns. That makes of course sense.


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## Rob Elliott

And I must say - having this 'control' (per cue) makes ALL the difference!!!


Rob


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## Rob Elliott

Freaking A Stephen - 

the combo of Clinton and Todd AO for percussion is brilliant!!!!!!!!!!! Took my VSL timp and gave them so much power. Wow!


Many thanks.


Rob


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## SvK

Rob,


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## artinro

SvK,
Your tutorials and hints on this and other forums are always most appreciated. Thank you very much for posting this information and for your willingness to help answer questions.

Perhaps I could ask one question: do your mic distances on your tail busses mirror the corresponding ones in your ER busses? Or do you stick with one mic distance for each instance of tail and only alter the tail predelay?

Thanks so much again for your wonderful lessons.

Cheers,
-Art


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## Ashermusic

I was skeptical of how much difference SvK's approach would make but after fooling around with it a bit, I am impressed.

Kudos, Stephen.


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## Blackster

This theory sounds really interesting and according to your comments it IS certainly one very good way to go. 

Unfortunately I don´t own AV yet, so is it possible to post a little example of what the whole orchestra sounds like when using this busses? ... many thanks in advanced for that. 

btw: because of your comments I definitely think about getting AV and Todd AO. Sounds like a must-have plugin  ...


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## Waywyn

Okay, I tried a bit with the settings and hear a significant difference in the samples.
Thanks again for posting this!

Although I tried with different settings, but generally it is cool to use ERs from other Impulses before using the ToddAO reverb as a tail.

I also tried to leave the ER from ToddAO switched on. Also nice signal.

So in the end I really liked the Teldex Berlin 5m ER only with around 50% delay. Tail turned off of course. Then routed this signal into the ToddAO IR but leaving the ER on. Since I am working with busses/groups I loaded 2 AV instance right after each other and put the dry/wet on both instances to around 70% wet. (iIf you do that it is important to mute direct, since you get terrible phasing otherwise )

Always good to read such experiments with reverb, since this seems to be most important when working with samples. Reverb can make so much sound very good, but can also destroy something if applied wrong.


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## Rob Elliott

Ashermusic @ Wed Apr 23 said:


> I was skeptical of how much difference SvK's approach would make but after fooling around with it a bit, I am impressed.
> 
> Kudos, Stephen.




Sorry to embarrass you Stephen but not many have a better set of ears and have such a deep understanding in getting the most from mixing samples. Your talents heare are nothing short of brilliant. Many thanks for all you have help me and others on this and the VSL boards.

Just delivered a indie feature to the director and he can hear the difference between this project and the one I did for him last year. Comments were actually made about the 'mix' (warm yet clear, etc...) :D 


Thanks again. Best fortunes to you.

Rob


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## SvK

Guys,

Thanx !

SvK


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## the sinner

Thank you for your time on this tutorial.

I was reading it, after putting time in trying to figure out it on my own, and found myself going duh - of course.

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## musicpete

Thanks for sharing your knowledge in such a generous way, Steven!


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## Jaap

Wow! This is really great. Thanks for providing this info. It opened my eyes haha.


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## JT3_Jon

the sinner @ Tue May 13 said:


> Thank you for your time on this tutorial.
> 
> I was reading it, after putting time in trying to figure out it on my own, and found myself going duh - of course.
> 
> 1) I do have a question regarding the ratio of DB from the ER signal to the Dry signal. How are you figuring this out? Some kind of math formula?
> 
> 2) Also according to the purest theories on convolution, doesn't the whole dry signal need to go into the convolution to actually get the room sound? Then one would instead find the proper dry/wet ratio instead of what send level to the bus.
> 
> Also I wish I had a picture/map of an orchestra set up infront of the TODD AO IR so that way I could take proper measurements to find the delay on the tails



Very curious about the answers to these questions as well! 

Thanks for the great tutorial SVK. I dont have Altiverb, but am going to see what I can come up with in Space Designer/Logic.


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## Adelmo

Am I correct in assuming that on all these 'sends', you are using a 'pre send' send rather than 'post send'? 

Mahlon 


would be good to know, as both give interesting results

A


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## Dave Connor

SvK is now using post fader sends so that he can adjust his volume level on the channel and not throw things out of balance.


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## vicontrolu

Sorry to make such a dumb question but..whats the point of having thre different instances of the same tail? arent this instruments supposed to be placed on the same stage? then if the ERs are treated separately the rev tail should be the same, no? 
Is it only becaue they need different pre-delays? cause this could be solved on a very more efficient way.

Thx.


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## SvK

they are not the same tail ..They are all different.

Slightly so but different.

SvK


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## vicontrolu

Well...how do they differ please? I read again the whole post but there´s no detail about which settings you use on each one of the tails.. :roll: 

Thanks!


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## Leon Willett

They are different because they are recorded at different distances from the impulse source. The room will sound different if you are 3.5 meters away from a loud bang, than if you are 11 meters away from a loud bang.


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## vicontrolu

Oh damn, so it was a completely different impulse, not the same one tweaked. Thanks Leon.


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## Cinemascore

vicontrolu @ Tue Dec 15 said:


> Oh damn, so it was a completely different impulse, not the same one tweaked. Thanks Leon.



There are actually nine separate impulses from the "narrow" (conductor's podium flanked omnis) mics, and another nine taken from the "far" (widely spaced omnis placed closer to the control room, yet farther in front of the orchestra) mics, for a total of 18 different and distinct impulses responses.


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## vicontrolu

I see.

I am curious to know how you differently send to the different busses depending on the library. For example, the easiest thing to put in the Toddao place for sure is VSL as they are super dry. But then for example if you mix Symphobia (close patches) on the same session the amount of set should be quite different as they already have some sese of position (i guess ER recorded in the sample). Not to mention EWQL platinum: close patches not oly have ERs but a decent amount of reverb tail on them.
Do you always remove RT groups then send fully to the busses like with VSL or you try to keep something about the original samples?


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## SvK

i do not believe in using ER's on libraries with baked in halls .....

you're asking for trouble...

SvK


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## Tanuj Tiku

Hi! Svk,

Thanks for sharing your settings.

I wanted to ask the reason why you use different tails for every section?

I only use a single Master Tail for everything right now. I thought thats how most people were setting up their Altiverbs.

Also something I would love for you to share is how you create the Dynamic Range for the set up?

For example - I keep my original VSL levels very low - Inside Vienna Ensemble - lot of things are -3dB by default in my template - then when it comes into Cubase - everything is -5 dB on the incoming channels - and finally - I also reduce the Input levels on Altiverb by about 4-6 dB - depending on which section I am using.

What I found by doing this - is that it gave me a lot of headroom and Dynamic Range - to pull up the track to decent levels in the end by using Vintage Warmer or Waves Ultramizer.


Your thoughts?

Thanks for sharing again - not many people do this - and this is just a great act - I am sure so many people will appreciate this.


Tanuj.


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## SvK

Hi as Leon said earlier:

"The tails are different because they are recorded at different distances from the impulse source. The room will sound different if you are 3.5 meters away from a loud bang, than if you are 11 meters away from a loud bang."

best,

SvK


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## SvK

Vibrato,

one more thing in addition to the Todd er's and tails, I DO have an additional master longer tail that is artificial... It is dialed in lower in volume than the Todd AO. I mix it so when the Todd AO tails end, it continues for a super smooth decay.

SvK


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## SvK

Vibrato,

concerning dynamic range, I do the same....

SvK


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## vicontrolu

SvK @ Tue Dec 15 said:


> i do not believe in using ER's on libraries with baked in halls .....
> 
> you're asking for trouble...
> 
> SvK



So you only use dry libraries on your session, right? Or you mean that you only send the ones with baked halls to the tails at taste, but never to the ERs?


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## SvK

Vicontrolu....

" Or you mean that you only send the ones with baked halls to the tails at taste, but never to the ERs?"

Exactly.

SvK


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## Fhl

great thread! Thanks for sharing Also, all the follow up posts answered all my questions


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## vicontrolu

After a while working with this setup i gotta say it sounds really good!

What plugin reverbs do you use in the master section, to give this smooth fading tail to the overall sound? Someone in this forum suggeted Eos (really cheap!) and also Aether is quite mentioned here.

Thanks!


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## Imzadi

Very interesting thread.

Do you take into consideration the distance of the direct sounds? (by delaying the direct sound)
Or by using ER you achieve that effect as well?


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## Gabriel Oliveira

SVK,

can you re-up the audio example?


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## danielcartisano

Gabriel Oliveira @ Thu Mar 08 said:


> SVK,
> 
> can you re-up the audio example?




This!

Please re-upload the audio example. I'd like to try this tonight.


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## luigiv

I ´ve learn a lot from this topic but I have some doubts and sure you could help me ...
The TAIL delays are always positive, aren ´t they? (pre-delay does not mean negative values I think)
My main question is about DRY SOUND Bus, ER Bus and TAIL Bus amplitude relations in every orchestral sections (strings, woodwinds and brass & percussion)

As my english is not good enough I prefer to send you all the settings I could collect from the tutorial and some of your later comments. So here they are, you perhaps can correct some of them...
________________________________________________________

front (strings)

DRY SOUND Bus: 0db

ER Bus: -6 db

Altiverb settings

IR: Todd AO st to st narrow mics at 03m50
Dry/Wet MIX: 100 % wet
DIRECT: off
EARLYREF: on
EARLYREF delay: 0
TAIL: off

TAIL Bus: 0 db

Altiverb settings

IR: Todd AO st to st narrow mics at 03m50
Dry/Wet MIX: 100 % wet
DIRECT: off
EARLYREF: off
EARLYREF delay: 0
TAIL: on
TAIL delay: 70 ms
_______________________________________________________

middle (woodwinds)

DRY SOUND Bus: 0db

ER Bus: -1 db

Altiverb settings

IR: Todd AO st to st narrow mics at 08m
Dry/Wet MIX: 100 % wet
DIRECT: off
EARLYREF: on
EARLYREF delay: 0
TAIL: off

TAIL Bus: 0db

Altiverb settings

IR: Todd AO st to st narrow mics at 08m
Dry/Wet MIX: 100 % wet
DIRECT: off
EARLYREF: off
EARLYREF delay: 0
TAIL: on
TAIL delay: 80 ms
________________________________________________________

back, (brass and percussion)

DRY SOUND Bus: 0db

ER Bus: +4 db

Altiverb settings

IR: Todd AO st to st narrow mics at 11m70
Dry/Wet MIX: 100 % wet
DIRECT: off
EARLYREF: on
EARLYREF delay: 0
TAIL: off

TAIL Bus: 0db

Altiverb settings

IR: Todd AO st to st narrow mics at 11m70
Dry/Wet MIX: 100 % wet
DIRECT: off
EARLYREF: off
EARLYREF delay: 0
TAIL: on
TAIL delay: 90
________________________________________________________

REMARKS:
DRY SOUND Bus are the instruments buses: violin, viola, flute, clarinet, horn, trombone, timpani, etc.


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## jasonplewis

Found this gem of a thread last night. Currently finishing up my first serious template on my new Master/Slave configuration which has taken me months to build out. Excited to finally get writing.

I'm primarily using Spitfire libraries (Symphonic Suite, Albions, Solo Strings), but also have a fair amount of East West in rotation. A lot of the Spitfire libraries are quite wet, and I've used a touch of "Room Matching" hall reverb to some of my other libraries (primarily EW Hollywood series) to match my more heavily used Spitfire libraries.

Two questions. First being, has anyone had any issues with this Front, Middle, Back technique using 'wetter' Spitfire libraries? Second being, I currently only have one "Room Matching" reverb for my drier libraries. I would imagine that I will have to create two more and send the output of said "Room Matching" reverb to it's respective section's tail? For example, First Violins will have 3 sends: Room Match Reverb, Front ER, Front Tail, with the "Room Match Reverb" output sent to "Front Tail".

Can someone please advise? In the final stretch with this template before I can start writing and very eager to get this done. Hoping after close to 10years of inactivity on this thread, someone will see it!


Thanks,

J


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