# Do Not Go to Music School



## JohnG (Jun 13, 2015)

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/13/opini ... egion&_r=0


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## rgames (Jun 13, 2015)

I think better advice is "Don't go into debt for music school." Or any arts degree for that matter.

If you want to take a few years of your life and study music to see if it works out, that's fine. But if you're in your twenties and rack up a debt that'll burden you for the rest of your life, that's just stupid.

If music school doesn't work out, chalk it up to a life experience and start over. That's really easy to do if you don't have a pile of debt and, more importantly, if you figure it out quickly.

rgames


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## Mike Marino (Jun 13, 2015)

> I think better advice is "Don't go into debt for music school." Or any arts degree for that matter.


+1


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## olajideparis (Jun 13, 2015)

Yes going into debt for music school unless its a state college is not a good idea at all. I have a friend who holds a bachelors and masters in Classical guitar from USC, as well as a masters and credential in music education, basically works a minimum wage job and owes probably well over 6 figures. He is one of the most depressed and bitter people I know. 

I on the other hand went to junior college, some state college and got the rest of my training from lots of self study and do pretty well for myself even better than may of my friends with multiple degrees from universities. The only real limitation to not having a degree is that I can't teach at the college or university level as a professor (though I don't want to) and I think it may have been a knock against me back when I was trying to get internships working for other composers but other than that its not like my clients are concerned with my lack of a degree or not. Its pretty clear from talking to me after a few minutes that I am well educated and can deliver what they need, that is all they care about at the end of the day. 

I do happen to be very passionate about education but I am not convinced that a conservatory or university is the only way in which one can develop themselves to a professional level.

My suggestion to somebody wanting to study music would be this:

Go to a junior college and take every single harmony, musicianship, orchestration, keyboard harmony and piano class available and audition for their applied music program if they have one. Once you've gone through two years of that you have a pretty good skillset to do a lot of things in music, from there I would buy lots of books, try to get whatever gigs you can arranging, transcribing, playing etc while working on your writing. I guess I am basically explaining what my path was, it worked for me and its only one way but it did work. I did a lot of things that weren't directly related to composition but that developed my musicianship in ways that have been very useful to me as a composer and most of all the variety of experiences have given me the confidence to know that I can learn anything and adapt to new situations easily which is what I THINK you are supposed to learn in university...then again I didn't go so I'm not sure.


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## Rodney Money (Jun 13, 2015)

Yeah man, going to music school never gave me anything in life except: new house, new car, beautiful wife and baby, friends, mentors, and music contacts for life, and I get to write music all day long. The hardest part of my day today was going to Chuck E Cheese. Man, life is hard. Cursed music school, it's like I haven't even worked since I got out of college since I graduated. 
Rod


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## Walid F. (Jun 13, 2015)

rgames @ Sat Jun 13 said:


> I think better advice is "Don't go into debt for music school." Or any arts degree for that matter.
> 
> If you want to take a few years of your life and study music to see if it works out, that's fine. But if you're in your twenties and rack up a debt that'll burden you for the rest of your life, that's just stupid.
> 
> ...



This was very well said. 

W.


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## Andrajas (Jun 14, 2015)

rgames @ Sat Jun 13 said:


> I think better advice is "Don't go into debt for music school." Or any arts degree for that matter.
> 
> If you want to take a few years of your life and study music to see if it works out, that's fine. But if you're in your twenties and rack up a debt that'll burden you for the rest of your life, that's just stupid.
> 
> ...



I'm in my twenties and currently studying music, guess I'm stupid then 
Of course, debt in early stage is not a good thing, but I have to believe that if its something worth have a debt for, it's education. If you do it right, I think it can help you a lot in the future, but then again, I'm just in my twenties....

The Swedish system I think is also a lot "kinder" than the system in the States.


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## Daryl (Jun 14, 2015)

Of course all of this depends on where you live. There is nothing to say that you leave music school with a pile of debt that can't be dealt with. Even in the UK that pile of debt only has to be paid back when funds allow, so doesn't affect things unduly.

The real problem with the debt is that Arts subjects offer fewer chances to make sizable incomes, compared with other professions, and the number of students who are accepted far outstrips the demand. Furthermore, when it comes to media composers, there is so much competition at the bottom of the food chain that knowing what you're doing, or even being good, is no advantage.

D


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## DHousden (Jun 14, 2015)

This is a discussion I'm constantly having with people in the UK. When I went to university, it cost roughly £3000 a year in tuition fees, plus whatever your bursary would be for that time (usually between £1000-2000 a term/semester) so I ended up with just under £25000 student debt when I came out of it. It now costs just over £9000 a year to study at most institutions, which means you could possibly owe the government close to £50000 before you've even worked a day in your life.

With that in mind, I feel that universities need to start being a _lot_ more transparent about what the prospects are for graduates. The truth of the matter being that beyond teaching and a handful of in-house positions working as composers assistants or studio tea boys, pretty much the only way to make it in this area of the industry, is to go freelance. With that in mind, I find it staggering how little most courses focus on the business side of things. 

So I suppose really it comes down to this: My degree as a qualification hasn't helped me earn a single job as a professional. That being said, without the skills, experiences and contacts that I picked up over the course of my studies, I quite simply wouldn't be doing this for a profession right now. Whether or not I could have picked up the same qualities in 3 years of self study and personal investment... I couldn't say. But it's a question students today really need to ask themselves. If I was in their position now, with the sort of resources and information which is currently available, I'd find it really difficult to justify spending £50000 on something which I could potentially teach myself, with the right mental discipline..


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## Daryl (Jun 14, 2015)

David, I agree and when it comes to studying music at a University, pretty much everything could be studied outside of the institution. However, the same is not true for music colleges, and the costs for the students are even higher than their university colleagues, as they also have high quality instruments to save up for in order to be able to enter the profession. providing that they can find a job, of course.

In my view the biggest problem is the fact that a degree used to denote a certain level of academic achievement and those skills were considered transferable. Now it is not so much about education, as jumping through exam hoops, so students can end up with detailed specialist knowledge about something that is fairly irrelevant and no rigorous intellectual training.

My solutions would be:

1) Cut the number of University places drastically and set up more vocational training places.
2) Make sure that all degree courses are academically rigorous, so that the skills can be transferable.
2) Make all Higher Education free.
3) If students abuse the privilege that they're being given, throw them out. No reason the taxpayer should support an expensive education that if student can't be bothered to take full advantage of the opportunities.

Of course the real problem is that the skill of learning to play the Violin may not be considered transferable, but employers need to know that Violin students (along with Viola, Cello and Piano) are probably more hardworking than any other kind of student, and have been long before they went to music college. That work ethic can be harnessed into many other jobs.

D


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## DHousden (Jun 14, 2015)

Absolutely! I imagine in the classical world, the institution you hail from has an awful lot of bearing on the sort of orchestra's you'll have the opportunity to join. Presumably certain conservatories have a reputation for churning out a certain calibre of student, which could perhaps even justify that sort of outlay.

Whereas when composing for media, a First class honours degree from x institution doesn't count for half as much as 3 years experience of working with directors, producers and game developers etc. I also wholeheartedly agree with all of your solutions there Daryl. If only, eh!


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## Daryl (Jun 14, 2015)

DHousden @ Sun Jun 14 said:


> Absolutely! I imagine in the classical world, the institution you hail from has an awful lot of bearing on the sort of orchestra's you'll have the opportunity to join. Presumably certain conservatories have a reputation for churning out a certain calibre of student, which could perhaps even justify that sort of outlay.


It's not even about the college you go to, it's the access to the professors for lessons and the possibilities to play in orchestras that are every bit as good a professional orchestras. Without this you have no experience, and are unable to get any. As far as cost goes, just studying the Violin outside of college would set you back £3-5K a year, never mind the rest of it, and there would be no (practicality) interest free loan to help, so it still wouldn't be a very cheap option.



DHousden @ Sun Jun 14 said:


> Whereas when composing for media, a First class honours degree from x institution doesn't count for half as much as 3 years experience of working with directors, producers and game developers etc. I also wholeheartedly agree with all of your solutions there Daryl. If only, eh!


TBH I can't really see that any qualification in composing for media is necessary. Maybe the access to materials might be an issue outside of Uni, but having seen the sort of people who often teach on these courses, I can't imagine that one would get more out of it than interning with a moderately unsuccessful composer. :wink: 

When I'm PM..... :twisted: 

D


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## kclements (Jun 14, 2015)

I dropped out of music school at a smaller mid west university. I grew to hate it and music in general. But I have since realized that the whole point of those first two semesters was to weed out people like me that didn't want to put in the time to learn - and didn't have the determination to stick it out. This was many years ago.

I agree with Daryl's points and suggestions. I think there are too many institutions pumping out too many cookie cutter musicians. 

But I have always regretted (at least a little bit) not finishing my music studies. And I am realizing that my limited knowledge is holding me back a bit. I think we can learn a lot with self study and reading- and especially experience. But I'm starting to appreciate the idea of finding a mentor and continuing my studies


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## Daryl (Jun 14, 2015)

kclements @ Sun Jun 14 said:


> But I have always regretted (at least a little bit) not finishing my music studies. And I am realizing that my limited knowledge is holding me back a bit.


And this is one of the primary problems with any established education system. Not all people are ready to study in a Higher Education institution at the age of 18. For some, that sort of maturity comes later, but because of the way things work, the older you get, the harder it can become to be able to do that studying. Certainly when I left music college I knew that I wasn't as good as I needed to be. Not that I couldn't get a job; far from it, but I needed a few more years to bring my performing chops up to snuff. So I took a full time job, whilst also practising 8 hours a day. Not easy, but it paid off. So, in my view there needs to be some sort of system for people who mature later than the age of 18, and that way Higher Education wouldn't wasted on so many, and it wouldn't be the "once in a lifetime" chance that it only too often becomes.

D


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## rgames (Jun 14, 2015)

This is what needs to happen: the schools need to underwrite the debt. And it's not just music schools, it's any school but it's particularly bad in the arts because the incomes are so low relative to the amount of debt.

Right now, the schools have no skin in the game - they have every incentive to bury a student under a pile of debt because there's no downside for them. The debt is someone else's problem - if the student can't pay it back the school suffers zero impact. The underwriter suffers (usually the government, a.k.a. you and me through our tax dollars) and the student suffers. But the schools can only benefit from student debt, so education costs keep rising. 

Economics 101.

Debt is not bad. Too much debt is bad. My advice is to shoot for no more student debt than 1/3 - 1/2 of your starting salary. So if you start at $40k then graduating with $20k in debt is fine. If you start at $30k and graduate with $100k in debt then you're financially strapped for most of your early career and perhaps even longer - essentially, you've bought your first house. But you have nowhere to live.

It's also socially irresponsible because the fruits of your economic output are being sent off to some bank or government, not into the community within which you live and work. The big banks and big governments get bigger but your local businesses, restaurants, arts organizations, charities, etc. all suffer. So debt is not just your problem, it's your community's problem.

Odds are good that if nothing changes, student debt could drive the next world financial crisis. When you compare the ridiculous mismatch between cost and value you can see the same pattern that emerged in the housing bubble and the dot-com bubble before it. And countless others before those.

Human beings seem incapable of understanding that the promise of more income later is not as good as the certainty of less cost now. We favor optimism over rational thought. Maybe that's a good thing... but there needs to be a balance. That's what the crises are for, I suppose.

rgames


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## JT (Jun 14, 2015)

Don't go to music school, heck in today's economy, I don't think any college degree is the answer it used to be. Music school was never a smart economic move, even 30 years ago. I agree with rgames, excessive debt should be avoided at all cost. 

I learned more at the junior college I went to, than the university I attended. And working in the commercial music world, I knew a few composers who had PhD's, and kept that information private. They thought that if a client knew, it could hurt them.

I don't know what I would do I was was 18 again, and had to make this decision. Being honest with myself, I was incredibly naive, thinking I was going to set the world on fire with my talent. But that's just being young.


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## gsilbers (Jun 18, 2015)

I think you can still go to music school and do the core college curriculum at community colleges and its fine. 

most employers will ask for a college degree as minimum but not from where. 

so its a good idea to do music degree if you want but better idea is to have a bachelor with the core curriculum so you can open other doors if music doesn't work out.


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## rJames (Jun 18, 2015)

Its hard to make these kind of generalizations.

It is always about the student, never about the degree. Most undergraduate degrees do not have a life long career promise do they?

From the right school and with the right student; mentors, real world chops, connections... there's a lot in a quality education.

Its probably a lot like professional sports. How many college athletes become professional athletes? So, have a minor in something else.

I could be much more if I had a formal musical education. But if I had a formal musical education would I be where I am today? Not necessarily.

But if you have a law degree and don't use it you are probably more prepared for life (more options) than if you have a music degree and don't use it.


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## gsilbers (Jun 18, 2015)

rJames @ Thu Jun 18 said:


> Its hard to make these kind of generalizations.
> 
> It is always about the student, never about the degree. Most undergraduate degrees do not have a life long career promise do they?
> 
> ...



I agree its about the individual student. 

if you see schools like berklee, mit, Harvard law/medicine, boston convervatory there is crap load of students who work their asses off. 
then you see schools like boston college, BU, Harvard liberal arts etc you see a bunch of kids who just want to party. 
(I lived in boston)

of course inside those schools there are exceptions but that was my main generalization. schools that are more tailored to something specific , kids really go for it. but random bachelors kids are mostly trying to figure out life without parents and do so mostly by partying. 

which is why I say at least get a bachelor on low cost schools like transfer colleges or community colleges. they all count to whatever major. and then you have the time for music or whatever classes u find more interesting.


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## rJames (Jun 18, 2015)

Agreed. And I was just addressing the entire thread...just happened to be following your comment.


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## jaeroe (Jun 18, 2015)

I remember my dad pressured me pretty hard when I was applying to college questioning whether I thought music was a good path. I ended up going to a good university with a strong music college and excellent/well known faculty. I think it was a smart move, as you really don't know that much when you go off to college - you're whole life is in front of you still. I had a number of classmates who did both music and got non-music degrees in 5 years. All smart people and excellent, driven students - fantastic musicians. The vast majority of those people are working musicians.

I learned a lot in music school, but the most useful stuff I learned in private study in the years after graduating - and just working in the field. I think the key is being immersed in music for a lengthy period of time with people around you that know a lot more than you do. You can do that at school or in the 'real world'. But, if my kid says he wants to get a degree in music, I'll agree to it if he also double majors in something non-music and can keep up with both and not take on an overwhelming amount of debt. That kind of drive is what is required to have a career in music these days. If it doesn't work - he'll have another field in which to find a more practical job.

When I was in college I realized that music school was a method for existing musicians to make a living, as opposed to a training ground to bring up the next generation of successful musicians. There were some excellent students who are currently doing great things where I went to school, but there are a lot of people who really had no business being there and the school was all too happy to take their money and tell them what they wanted to hear. It's tricky, because the school can't survive otherwise, and you need certain things to have a good music program, but it involves a certain amount of dishonesty as well. Music ed is probably the worst of it - trainers of those who wish to become trainers for an over-saturated field.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 18, 2015)

Music school is brain training at least as much as it's musical training. I wouldn't trade my years at Berklee for all the pot in the world.

Nobody should have to go into debt for *any* college. It should be free, because there's no better investment in our future.

I say the debate should be whether music schools need emphasize general education more, not rambling about the tough life of the musician. We all knew it was a dog's life going in (and not my dog, who has a very nice life!).

But on an individual level the question whether it's sound business to pay $XXX,XXX because you won't get $X,XXX,XXX is simply the wrong question. Intellectual development of any kind is a huge part of who you are as a person.

(By the way, I got a whole lot that will always stick with me from some of the academic classes I took at Berklee.)


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## rgames (Jun 18, 2015)

rJames @ Thu Jun 18 said:


> Its probably a lot like professional sports. How many college athletes become professional athletes?


The difference is that the athletes are almost all on scholarship and not building up a pile of debt. So if it doesn't work out it's really easy for them to move in a new direction. In that case, as I said above, it was an interesting life experience that provided some character building with no long-term negative effects (save the effects of a few concussions, perhaps). There's nothing wrong with that whether in pursuit of athletics or music or Russian literature or whatever tickles your fancy.

But here's the key: keep your options open. By burying yourself under a pile of debt you're severely limiting your options.

rgames


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 18, 2015)

And by not going to college you're limiting your options to an exponentially higher degree (sic).

Or you can just advise everyone to go to trade school and become a welder.


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## rgames (Jun 18, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jun 18 said:


> And by not going to college you're limiting your options to an exponentially higher degree (sic).
> 
> Or you can just advise everyone to go to trade school and become a welder.


Trade school is a fine way to go. I went to Georgia Tech, previously known as the "North Avenue Trade School", and got a fine education deeply rooted in the trade school tradition: a large percentage of the students (half?) go to school a semester, then work a semester, then go to school a semester, then work, etc. It takes longer to graduate but the practical job experience is a huge benefit when they do. Plus they make money to help pay for school (there's that debt thing again...).

The problem is that there are too many people with degrees they don't need. A trade school or junior college makes a lot more sense for a lot of professions. Music is one of them. My wife is a band director - did she really need to take geology (Rocks for Jocks) to better teach kids how to play flute and clarinet? No. That time would have been better spent in the classroom gaining practical experience.

The concept of "expanding your mind" is a good one but it needn't be limited to a formal education setting. People who want to do that will do so regardless of whether there's a degree attached to the process. And the people who don't want to do that won't do so even though the degree says they did.

All a degree signifies is that you paid all your fees.

rgames


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 18, 2015)

Sure trade school is fine. That's not my point at all.

And of course you don't need to go to school to learn music or anything else. You can learn nuclear physics on your own. Of course. For most people it's easier if you're taught, but that's not the issue.

The question is whether people should not go to music school because it's not "practical." And I say it's an end in itself even though there's no music industry to go to after you're done.

To me there's a little more to it all than what makes money.


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