# Omnisphere: Inconsistent tone/attack on custom sine based kick hits



## Grfrednet (Jul 29, 2022)

Hello all, 

Hoping for some guidance and that my issue is something basic that I'm overlooking. 

I have created a kick drum in omnisphere 2.8 by using a sine wave on layer A. The problem I'm experiencing is with subtle inconsistent sounding tones from the kick on each hit. One hit will sound full and punchy, the next sounds "clicky" etc and lacking some body, etc. It varies slightly every few hits. The inconsistencies seem to get worse if I'm playing the kick at a higher rate of tempo.

- I've checked the mod matrix. There aren't any lfos "randomizing" enabled anything.
-the filter is off, no envelope affecting it.
- no round robin multi layered samples
- I've lengthened attack and release moderately and the issue remains.
-omnisphere up to date with all updates

Patch Settings:

- modulation assigned from mod1 envelope to the course pitch control.

- target set almost to minimum so pitch starts low, and my envelope depth is set to max. 

Mod1 envelope attack is at 0, decay is relatively short, sustain is at minimum, release a few ms.

In the envelope settings, I have it set to "Note" for mod1.

My amp envelop settings are attack 0, decay short (similar to mod1), sustain 0, release short (similar to mod1).

I have this patch set to Solo, legato off, and no glide - though the same issue occurs with solo off.

PC Specs:

PC is running Win 10, 32GB of ram, and a Ryzen 5 3600XT cpu.

The Omnisphere library is on its own ssd (samsung gen 4 m.2), and the base app installation is on the OS ss drive.

I can post a video today hopefully demonstrating the issue.


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## Tom_D (Jul 29, 2022)

I don't personally have omnisphere, but in general with synths for a consistent attack there might be a "phase reset" or "osc reset" function which guarantees that every new key press starts the oscillator from the same point, resulting in a consistent sound. Especially with bass sounds, if something like this is not enabled it can cause successive notes to sounds different in terms of overall timbre or punch. 

Maybe this has to do with it? Not sure


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## richmwhitfield (Jul 29, 2022)

Have you turned down 'Analog' and how much velocity impacts the amp env? I have something which sounds pretty consistent.


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## Grfrednet (Jul 29, 2022)

Tom_D said:


> I don't personally have omnisphere, but in general with synths for a consistent attack there might be a "phase reset" or "osc reset" function which guarantees that every new key press starts the oscillator from the same point, resulting in a consistent sound. Especially with bass sounds, if something like this is not enabled it can cause successive notes to sounds different in terms of overall timbre or punch.
> 
> Maybe this has to do with it? Not sure


Thanks for the reply Tom! So, I've discovered something. Omnisphere has a virtual keyboard that you can trigger the notes from, so I decided to try it. When I use that, the kick tone is consistent as it should be. However, when I trigger the notes from my midi controller (Yamaha S90ES) which uses a usb cable into my computer. it manifests this odd variation in tone/phase on my kick hits. Not sure why that would be, but I'll keep troubleshooting. If you have any further ideas I appreciate it. Thanks again!

George


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## Grfrednet (Jul 29, 2022)

richmwhitfield said:


> Have you turned down 'Analog' and how much velocity impacts the amp env? I have something which sounds pretty consistent.


I appreciate the suggestion Rich! I've discovered that when using the Omnisphere virtual keyboard to trigger the sound, the kick tone is consistent as it should be. However, when I trigger the notes from my midi controller (Yamaha S90ES) which uses a usb cable into my computer, it manifests the odd variation in tone/phase on my kick hits. Not sure why that would be, but I'll keep troubleshooting. If you have any further ideas I appreciate it. Thanks for the help!

George


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## richmwhitfield (Jul 29, 2022)

I think that with the virtual keyboard you will most likely be clicking in same spot everytime (if you click rapidly) so it will send the same velocity into Omnisphere. With a midi keyboard it is very difficult to get exactly the same velocity everytime, hence a different value being sent to Omni. Turning down velocity to 0 for the layer will negate any difference in key presses.


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## Grfrednet (Jul 29, 2022)

richmwhitfield said:


> I think that with the virtual keyboard you will most likely be clicking in same spot everytime (if you click rapidly) so it will send the same velocity into Omnisphere. With a midi keyboard it is very difficult to get exactly the same velocity everytime, hence a different value being sent to Omni. Turning down velocity to 0 for the layer will negate any difference in key presses.


Hey Rich

I definitely had made sure that velocity was at 0 for the amp envelope. So theoretically, the velocity triggered by my hardware keyboard should be at max velocity I would think.


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## richmwhitfield (Jul 29, 2022)

Ah ok, sorry. Really strange! Hope you find out the issue.


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## Grfrednet (Jul 29, 2022)

richmwhitfield said:


> Ah ok, sorry. Really strange! Hope you find out the issue.


Thank man, it's definitely a head scratcher. I don't think the issue is a deal breaker thankfully as I'm hoping that the issue won't manifest in my DAW when the midi notes are what's triggering Omnisphere. That's the next test I have to do. If I discover the cause of the root issue, I'll be sure to post the solution. Thanks again!

George


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## Tom_D (Jul 29, 2022)

Yep seems odd. This may be reaching a little, but is there any chance that there is a long release happening with your yamaha keyboard, where the next key press is kind of "catching up" to where the last oscillator left off? I don't know if the virtual keyboard is sending a complete "off" message that your keyboard is not? For example, is it possible that when you press the Yamaha keyboard two times in a row, that the 2nd note is picking up where the sine wave last was rather than resetting from scratch? 

As a quick test, if you play successive notes on your yamaha at a very slow tempo (slow enough to hope that all "off" messages are complete), is the issue still there?

Not sure!


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## Grfrednet (Jul 29, 2022)

Tom_D said:


> Yep seems odd. This may be reaching a little, but is there any chance that there is a long release happening with your yamaha keyboard, where the next key press is kind of "catching up" to where the last oscillator left off? I don't know if the virtual keyboard is sending a complete "off" message that your keyboard is not? For example, is it possible that when you press the Yamaha keyboard two times in a row, that the 2nd note is picking up where the sine wave last was rather than resetting from scratch?
> 
> As a quick test, if you play successive notes on your yamaha at a very slow tempo (slow enough to hope that all "off" messages are complete), is the issue still there?
> 
> Not sure!


Great suggestion, but unfortunately the same thing happens even when pausing in between notes for about a second or two. I also tested an actual Omnisphere made Kick preset. The same thing occurs - though a notable difference is the Omnisphere patch is actually a sample, unlike my custom kick patch which is a sine wave. The inconsistencies definitely sound like what you'd hear with random out of phase issues.

One other significant note, I opened Omnisphere within my DAW (Cubase 12), and when I trigger my kick preset from the keyboard, it plays consistently as it should. However, if I draw out midi notes to trigger the kick, the weird inconsistencies return. This just keeps getting weirder.


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## Bman70 (Jul 29, 2022)

Just off the top of my head, if I was troubleshooting this I'd try: 
Turning off loop and sync for Mod 1. 
Making sure Mod 1 is in Note trigger mode instead of Legato or Song (the 3 buttons in lower right).
Copy the Mod 1 envelope and paste it into Amp and also Filter just for the f of it. 
Well just throwing out guesses at the point, but if I think of anything else I'll let you know.


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## Grfrednet (Jul 29, 2022)

Hey Bman, I do have it set to "note" and loop is off. The issue still occurs. Tried making all envelopes the same via copy/paste, and it persists. Strange thing is, the same thing happens on an Omnisphere-made patch (using only layer B) which is actually a sample. The sample isn't even using any envelope modulation except only for the amp, and the issue occurs with that patch as well. I appreciate the suggestions!


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## Bman70 (Jul 29, 2022)

Interesting, especially that it doesn't happen with the onboard keyboard. Maybe something your keyboard is adding somehow. It would be interesting to see if another keyboard does the same thing. Last thing I can think is the Analog control in the oscillator zoom, which is supposed to introduce "inconsistency":


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## Grfrednet (Jul 29, 2022)

Bman70 said:


> Interesting, especially that it doesn't happen with the onboard keyboard. Maybe something your keyboard is adding somehow. It would be interesting to see if another keyboard does the same thing. Last thing I can think is the Analog control in the oscillator zoom, which is supposed to introduce "inconsistency":


So I tried my little m-audio keystation midi keyboard and the same exact thing happens. Also, the analog setting was already at 0. This is really boggling my mind... I'm also in contact with Spectrasonics support. Hopefully they can figure this out or point me in the right direction. Thanks!


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## Grfrednet (Jul 29, 2022)

*Update*... and not the news I was hoping for. 
I was in contact with a Spectrasonics tech, and they were able to replicate the issue. They replicated it within a Cubase project, but the issue* also* exists in the standalone app as well. He said he would need to further discuss with their development team, which leads me to believe that there won't be any quick answers to this.

Here is a relevant portion of what he wrote back to me:

_Hi George,

Thank you for sending that along, that's most helpful.

I definitely hear what you are referring to with each track and wish I had a more technical answer for why they are occurring but that would have to come from our DEV team.

I investigated each patch and for the ones you created, I was able to get a more consistent response by limiting the voices to "1". _*(This didn't really help honestly)*
_
I'd be happy to ask our DEV team about this but that will not be a quick process (they are busy people, as you can imagine).

That being said, in the interim, I would still recommend bouncing to audio and reusing that same audio slice.

Consistency is a big reason "real", tracked drums are often layered with samples in recordings.

I'm sure there is a software equivalent to an acoustic head being struck while it is already vibrating, as I know our DEV team has always gone to painstaking lengths to make our instruments feel "alive" with character.

Inconsistencies and nonlinearities are a big part of that, especially with soft-synths.

That brings up another point, that Omnisphere's focus as a synthesizer is not necessarily as a drum-synth.

From what little I know about virtual instrument development, I gather that things often have to be tweak for specific purposes (i.e. you have to make choices like quality versus resources, snappy envelopes versus musical ones, etc.).
****************************************************************************_


So while I understand that dynamics in Spectrasonic presets lend toward authenticity, I don't think that having some background algorithm creating random inconsistencies for a sine wave is desired many times. Adding non-linear responses is something I'd prefer to set using something like LFOs on some given setting. Anyhow, I feel that this isn't good for a piece of software this expensive. Hoping they can address this, but I'm not counting on it. 

I'd be interested if any other Omnisphere users here have ever tried to create a kick using a sine wave, with a course pitch modulation etc, and have experienced this issue? I've attached the custom patch if anyone wants to try to replicate the issue. Thanks for everyone's input!

George


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## Bman70 (Jul 29, 2022)

Could you attach an audio of some of your kick hits, and point out where the variation is? If it's not too much trouble. I do have my own "kick" presets using a sine wave, and as far as I'm concerned it sounds basically unvarying. But I'm no expert and really and just did it for fun, and probably wouldn't use it in place of a real drum sample.


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## Grfrednet (Jul 29, 2022)

Sure thing. I'll upload two clips - one where it sounds inconsistent, and another that is the correct output. The workaround I'll use to record a correct example of the kick patch (since playback of midi notes seem to manifest the issue) will be to record the output signal of omnisphere to an audio track while I manually play the notes on my keyboard. I'll upload them in a little while.


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## Grfrednet (Jul 29, 2022)

Bman70 said:


> Could you attach an audio of some of your kick hits, and point out where the variation is? If it's not too much trouble. I do have my own "kick" presets using a sine wave, and as far as I'm concerned it sounds basically unvarying. But I'm no expert and really and just did it for fun, and probably wouldn't use it in place of a real drum sample.


In the zip file I've included one file that contains the inconsistencies, and one without. Try to listen on a system that has some low-end response. You'll notice in the inconsistent file that certain hits contain more mid-range tone to them and are perceivably louder slightly. In the consistent kick file, all the kick hits remain virtually identical. If you load the files into a DAW, and you zoom in enough, you will visibly see that the inconsistent file has some slight wave form differences as well between two different sounding hits.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Jul 29, 2022)

Not to derail the thread but I have trouble with "solo" mode being out of sync as if there is some randomization going on, although noone else seems to have it based on a thread I made here. 

I'm just curious if the root of the problem could be the same and there is some weird randomization baked in. Unfortunately it's hard to test timing differences with a virtual keyboard since I'd have to be a robot to play it in time enough while sliding back and forth to notice timing issues.

Just curious if you also get sync inconsistencies with solo mode and glide activated to hear it better?
(analog all the way down)


example
View attachment Sine Omni Out Of Time.mp3


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## Pier (Jul 29, 2022)

Grfrednet said:


> In the zip file I've included one file that contains the inconsistencies, and one without. Try to listen on a system that has some low-end response. You'll notice in the inconsistent file that certain hits contain more mid-range tone to them and are perceivably louder slightly. In the consistent kick file, all the kick hits remain virtually identical. If you load the files into a DAW, and you zoom in enough, you will visibly see that the inconsistent file has some slight wave form differences as well between two different sounding hits.


On the consistent .wav the notes seem shorter.

Could it be there's some overlap between the sounds that's causing this?

I don't have Omni but many synths have a retrigger mode to prevent this. You could also try making your patch monophonic.

You could try tweaking the note length and/or the release time.

Something else I've noticed is in the inconsistent .wav the pitch seems to change slightly. Could it be the pitch envelope is receiving velocity?


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## Bman70 (Jul 29, 2022)

It's subtle but I seem to hear an almost phaser-ish thing going on, also like Pier said some pitch change vs. the consistent track. 

I don't really know what I'm doing making a kick sound, but here's a test sine wave in Omni that I played in on my NI M32 keyboard. I don't know if it seems to have as much variation, but maybe I left out more frequencies.


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## Kony (Jul 29, 2022)

Are there any FX switched on in your Omnisphere patch?


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## Double Helix (Jul 29, 2022)

Does the same condition exist with factory kick drums or just with your patch?


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## Grfrednet (Jul 29, 2022)

Pier said:


> On the consistent .wav the notes seem shorter.
> 
> Could it be there's some overlap between the sounds that's causing this?
> 
> ...


Hi Pier,

The midi notes that are triggering the "inconsistent" kick hits are uniformly 16th notes in length, and there's definitely no overlapping of the midi notes. The amp envelope release and mod1 envelope release for the course pitch modulation are very short also. Much shorter than the intervals at which the notes play in the pattern. Also, if it were a "release" issue, I would think that it would effect the sound when I play from the keyboard at virtually the same tempo and beat interval as the inconsistent midi note audio clip.

Regarding velocity on the pitch envelope, I didn't think there was a velocity control for mod1. If there is, wouldn't there also be variances in pitch from my keyboard performance clip which has the consistent kick sounds? Also, regarding the midi note clip that has the varying pitches, all the midi notes are set at 127 velocity in my DAW, yet the kick still varies in tone etc. Thanks for the feedback!


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## Grfrednet (Jul 29, 2022)

Bman70 said:


> It's subtle but I seem to hear an almost phaser-ish thing going on, also like Pier said some pitch change vs. the consistent track.
> 
> I don't really know what I'm doing making a kick sound, but here's a test sine wave in Omni that I played in on my NI M32 keyboard. I don't know if it seems to have as much variation, but maybe I left out more frequencies.


Hey Bman,

I didnt get to listen to this clip in my good monitors, but in my headphones I don't really hear any variations in your kick. Sounds pretty steady. Also, when the issue occurs when using my DAW, it's only with midi notes as the trigger of the kick. When I play the kick using my keyboard, the kick is consistent. As a reminder, because we've had a lot of discussion on this 😀, it's the opposite when I use my keyboard with just the standalone app. Keyboard then triggers inconsistencies, and the omni virtual keyboard is consistent. 

In the clip that you posted, were those kicks being triggered by midi notes, or did you play your midi keyboard and record the omnisphere output directly to an audio track?

Thanks for doing the test!


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## Grfrednet (Jul 29, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> Not to derail the thread but I have trouble with "solo" mode being out of sync as if there is some randomization going on, although noone else seems to have it based on a thread I made here.
> 
> I'm just curious if the root of the problem could be the same and there is some weird randomization baked in. Unfortunately it's hard to test timing differences with a virtual keyboard since I'd have to be a robot to play it in time enough while sliding back and forth to notice timing issues.
> 
> ...


Hmm... I "think" I hear some drift in the synth in relation to the metronome, but I had to listen a few times because it seems really subtle to me if even perceivable. You have a glide on it, so does the sync issue occur if you take glide off. If you just have stacatto midi notes without glide enabled, are they not in sync with the metronome?


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## Grfrednet (Jul 29, 2022)

Kony said:


> Are there any FX switched on in your Omnisphere patch?


Hi Kony, no I didn't use any effects. It's just a basic sine wave with a mod1 envelope that is modulating the course pitch very quickly to create an attack to the sine.


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## Grfrednet (Jul 29, 2022)

Double Helix said:


> Does the same condition exist with factory kick drums or just with your patch?


Hey Helix, I only tested one factory preset as there aren't many kicks in Omnisphere, but it also did occur with a factory kick. There was one preset where I disabled one of the audio layers, to let the sampled kick play, and the same issues occurred. And the factory preset wasn't even using a pitch envelope mod like my sine based kick does. It's very strange how the same problem happens with both a synth and a sample patch when triggered with midi notes in my DAW, but doesnt occur when I trigger the sounds with my midi keyboard. 

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the "oppositie" is true when I use the stand alone Omnisphere app. My keyboard will then have inconsistent kick sounds, and using the omnisphere virtual keyboard will sound consistent. 

BIZARRE.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Jul 29, 2022)

Grfrednet said:


> Hmm... I "think" I hear some drift in the synth in relation to the metronome, but I had to listen a few times because it seems really subtle to me if even perceivable. You have a glide on it, so does the sync issue occur if you take glide off. If you just have stacatto midi notes without glide enabled, are they not in sync with the metronome?


Here is poly/staccato only (same midi as glide with note overlaps thus it sounds weird. Just to have an unaltered comparison)
View attachment omni timing POLY.mp3


Here is solo without glide.
View attachment omni timing SOLO.mp3


Here solo but even faster.
View attachment omni timing SOLO FASTER.mp3


much better example, more audible. Really curious now if you get the same problem...


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## Grfrednet (Jul 29, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> Here is poly/staccato only (same midi as glide with note overlaps thus it sounds weird. Just to have an unaltered comparison)
> View attachment omni timing POLY.mp3
> 
> 
> ...


Wow that's very noticable in the last two, but especially the last one. I will test it out when I get back tonight, or tomorrow. Have you contacted Omnisphere support at all? Also, what DAW are you using?


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## Lionel Schmitt (Jul 29, 2022)

Grfrednet said:


> Wow that's very noticable in the last two, but especially the last one. I will test it out when I get back tonight, or tomorrow. Have you contacted Omnisphere support at all? Also, what DAW are you using?


Cubase 11. Didn't contact them yet but will do till Monday when they are back... thanks!


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## Bman70 (Jul 29, 2022)

Grfrednet said:


> Hey Bman,
> 
> I didnt get to listen to this clip in my good monitors, but in my headphones I don't really hear any variations in your kick. Sounds pretty steady. Also, when the issue occurs when using my DAW, it's only with midi notes as the trigger of the kick. When I play the kick using my keyboard, the kick is consistent. As a reminder, because we've had a lot of discussion on this 😀, it's the opposite when I use my keyboard with just the standalone app. Keyboard then triggers inconsistencies, and the omni virtual keyboard is consistent.
> 
> ...


That was played in with my M32 NI mini keyboard into Reason 11. 
Here's another Omnisphere sine wave, also Reason 11, penciled in MIDI notes using the mouse:


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## Grfrednet (Jul 29, 2022)

Bman70 said:


> That was played in with my M32 NI mini keyboard into Reason 11.
> Here's another Omnisphere sine wave, also Reason 11, penciled in MIDI notes using the mouse:


I didn't notice any variations in pitch or tone. I'm baffled.


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## Grfrednet (Jul 29, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> Here is poly/staccato only (same midi as glide with note overlaps thus it sounds weird. Just to have an unaltered comparison)
> View attachment omni timing POLY.mp3
> 
> 
> ...


Hey Lionel, I just tried the same 4 note pattern drawn out in midi notes at a tempo similar to your 3rd clip. I set it to solo and it played without any drifting. Not sure what could be causing that one your end. Perhaps something with how windows or cubase and your audio interface are interacting. Maybe try checking the timestamp boxes one at a time in the Midi Port setup within the Studio setup menu in Cubase.


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## Bman70 (Jul 29, 2022)

Grfrednet said:


> I didn't notice any variations in pitch or tone. I'm baffled.


I didn't use the preset you uploaded, so maybe it's something in the settings in that preset? The variation does seem mostly in higher frequencies. Here's a few screenshots from what I recorded, I did tweak the shape and symmetry both to 50.


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## Pier (Jul 29, 2022)

Could it be that your MIDI controller is sending pitch bend messages?

It happened to me recently. The module that decodes the pitch wheel started acting weird.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Jul 30, 2022)

Grfrednet said:


> Hey Lionel, I just tried the same 4 note pattern drawn out in midi notes at a tempo similar to your 3rd clip. I set it to solo and it played without any drifting. Not sure what could be causing that one your end. Perhaps something with how windows or cubase and your audio interface are interacting. Maybe try checking the timestamp boxes one at a time in the Midi Port setup within the Studio setup menu in Cubase.


Thanks! I could only find one option related to timestamps (use windows timestamps) in the midi port menu and activating or deactivating it did nothing.

Just to be sure, did you overlap the notes? It only happens that way, without overlaps it's in sync


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## Grfrednet (Jul 30, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> Thanks! I could only find one option related to timestamps (use windows timestamps) in the midi port menu and activating or deactivating it did nothing.
> 
> Just to be sure, did you overlap the notes? It only happens that way, without overlaps it's in sync


Yes, I actually tried both ways - with and without overlapping notes, with/without - legato, glide, solo. It didn't cause any issues, though I've discovered Solo on Trilian causes a whole different issue related to notes clicking/popping on custom basses when two or more notes are played quickly one after.another. I've been in contact with spectrasonics, and they acknowledged that Trilian issue as well.


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## Grfrednet (Jul 30, 2022)

Pier said:


> Could it be that your MIDI controller is sending pitch bend messages?
> 
> It happened to me recently. The module that decodes the pitch wheel started acting weird.


No I don't think so because the issue occurs if I disconnect my midi keyboard when (playing back) midi notes in Cubase. The Kicks are actually consistent sounding if I play the kick in Omnisphere (while open in Cubase) with the midi keyboard. Only if I have Omnisphere open in stand-alone mode does the same inconsistent behavior occur when using my midi keyboard, but not with the Omnisphere virtual keyboard.


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## Grfrednet (Jul 30, 2022)

UPDATE: So maybe I'm a bit slow lol, but regarding my issue with the Kick I made out of a sine wave, I may have solved the issue. I had been using the Mod1 envelope to modulate the pitch (course). It led to all kinds of weird inconsistencies in tone as I fully explained in my first post in this thread. I decided to use the filter envelope instead to modulate the pitch course parameter, and voila, it is working as it should. I'm not sure why, but I'm happy I got it to work right. Anyone have any thoughts? Also, I want to thank everyone for their help!!

George


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