# What's worse than having your music rejected?



## Trev Parks (Dec 13, 2007)

I'd love to hear another part to that story where isham hires someone to dump in Costner's bed because that is horrendous. You'd have thought that Costner would have had the backbone to just say "not for me"


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## John DeBorde (Dec 13, 2007)

Brian Ralston @ Thu Dec 13 said:


> Or there is the story of Mark Isham scoring Waterworld. (Josè may have heard this before).
> 
> The way I heard it...Kevin Costner went over to Mark Isham's studio to listen to his first set of score demos for Waterworld. Isham played him a couple cues. Costner said to him...,"excuse me for a moment, may I use your restroom." Isham said sure. Costner went down the hall to the restroom. Isham sat there and waited...waited....waited....waited. He got up to go see if Costner was ok since it had been so long. Costner was not in the restroom. He was not anywhere to be found. Isham looked outside and Costner's car was now gone. He simply sneaked out and left.
> 
> Isham's score, in an incompleted demo form, was obviously rejected without much explanation and James Newton Howard was hired to score the film in a relatively short amount of time.



Not taking into account of course Costner's legendary bout with IBS, and JNH's equally legendary supply of Imodium.

Seriously guys, it pays to keep some on hand! :twisted:


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## Niah (Dec 13, 2007)

Brian Ralston @ Thu Dec 13 said:


> Or there is the story of Mark Isham scoring Waterworld. (Josè may have heard this before).
> 
> The way I heard it...Kevin Costner went over to Mark Isham's studio to listen to his first set of score demos for Waterworld. Isham played him a couple cues. Costner said to him...,"excuse me for a moment, may I use your restroom." Isham said sure. Costner went down the hall to the restroom. Isham sat there and waited...waited....waited....waited. He got up to go see if Costner was ok since it had been so long. Costner was not in the restroom. He was not anywhere to be found. Isham looked outside and Costner's car was now gone. He simply sneaked out and left.
> 
> Isham's score, in an incompleted demo form, was obviously rejected without much explanation and James Newton Howard was hired to score the film in a relatively short amount of time.



OMG :lol: 

unreal !


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## kid-surf (Dec 13, 2007)

Some specific sits...


You're sick of my words? Well then, don't read it, sheesh. 


But first. I feel that, often, composers don't want to be labeled "complainers" so they hold this stuff in. Even go so far as to wear the "overworked under-respected" badge with pride. So as to not risk losing future work. Or... maybe, they have fooled themselves into believing it's perfectly acceptable for these people way to treat others (it's just business). Yet, we're often anonymous here. So, why would a composer tattle on another composer. This is commiserating... a catharsis, if you will. Directors don't hang out here... do they?

Anyway, some stuff that's bugged me. Random stuff as it comes to me:

1) Being up for a few Mil Horror feature. They got it down to two people. Meet with us each a few times. Then they were to decide between the two of us. They never called me back. Finally I called them "Oh sorry, we didn't call? Yeah, we went with someone else". (Don't think the film got picked up, if it did it went straight to DVD. No theatrical release I've hard of). I'd rather be rejected than not notified one way or the other.

2) Getting stiffed on a spec fee. What, am I gonna do sue them? Tell my mom?

3) Getting stiffed on a composing fee. Same thing. More so, I feel embarrassed for them. I don't need their money THAT bad. Not gonna beg for it. But it's probably not the smartest thing in the world for a newer director, with no agent, to stiff someone whose wife is an agent at one of the Big-5. Go figure? (Was actually the producers fault, but still)

4) Having 2 hours to score a cue because the director wanted to watch the Super Bowl instead of work. Which left me siting with my thumb up my butt waiting for a file as he got drunk w/the editor.

5) Being left a message asking me to ghost something late in the day and a file left in my FTP. So I stay up all night, with a 102 temperature, only to get a message in the morning that "nevermind, I did it myself".

6) Rejection the other way -- Having to sit through an hour and a half film some dude thought was the second coming based on the fact that he had a C-List actor to star (Sure, I've heard of the guy but, so what? He's not a bad actor, but...). The film was excruciating to sit through. Once it finally crawled-dead to the end I was like "Awesome! Wow! I love it! So, when is your commence date again? Yeah, then? Dang it, unfortunately I have some things that overlap, sorry". He's like "Well, this is a film a lotta composers would kill to do". I'm like "I bet! Take care!"

7) Met with a dude who asked me if I could do a score that was Ultra-Modern. Sure, I say. I go to the editing bay and after a short while I realize he meant "Score AND Sound Design" for the same fee. I don't do sound design, I say. He's like, "well, I heard most composers do both now a days". I'm like "Cool! Well, I would definitely call one of those guys if I were you... peace!"

That's all I can think of ATM. Surely someone has worse stories than I.


That's some of the crap that prompted me to split. I don't need to sit there and kiss some guys ass. I can do my own films. Besides, I would call people back in a timely fashion and respect the TON of work people would be doing to make ME look good... and not take it all for granted. Not take for granted that one film equals a career as a filmmaker. Because it doesn't. REgardless of the sort of budget you were able to achieve. 


Personally, I feel that's were the prob resides. People get one film going, whatever the budget and take the title "director" to mean something it doesn't, yet. You may be right back out "directing" folks to the napkin dispenser at ________ ('restaurant') if you aren't thinking 20 steps ahead ---> Especially if you can't also write at a Studio level.


But considering this strike... maybe H-Town will be burnt to a crisp before it's all over. How greedy are these 6 guys, anyway? (AMPTP) We'll see...



KID


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## kid-surf (Dec 13, 2007)

BTW -- funny story Brian. 

But, what's he afraid of? I thought this was the same guy who dances with wolves, after all. That can't be easy either.


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## JohnG (Dec 13, 2007)

Hi Kid-surf,

You are very articulate and obviously have a lot to say. 

Just FYI, I am working with a director who sends me emails telling me how great the music is, practically every cue I send him, and how talented etc. Maybe it's flowery but it's still very gratifying.

While I admit it's not that rare, the kind of rudeness and disrespect you are describing also is not my general experience. That was more with student films -- the worst -- and some first-time guys, though not all. I go to movies and hang out with one director whose first film I scored over 10 years ago. 

Besides, when I was first starting I got into at least one short film that I had no idea how to handle. It didn't get resolved very nicely at all, but then, I probably should have pulled out after I saw the film and realized what he wanted.

To some extent, the poor communication, disregard for others, and outright rudeness really IS part of business and is not unique to the entertainment business. In every business, some people are not very nice, some are dishonest, some un-talented. I have seen just as much rudeness and dishonesty in other businesses, though generally not as much fear and insecurity.

Of course we hold our complaints in. What are we supposed to do, act like Jack Nicholson with a golf club? There is a huge surplus of composers compared with decent gigs and everyone on this board knows it and that's the reason for the rotten work conditions, not just evil directors; when you have 100 people sending in demo CDs for a student movie that pays nothing, it's not that surprising that some start to take the music for granted, especially inexperienced directors. 

I agree with your perspective -- if you don't like it, making your own movies is a pretty good response.

So, while I find your writing very interesting, I am writing not to flatly contradict what you are saying -- because plenty of it is at least somewhat true -- but I would rather not feel as though I'm being shouted at in such a negative way, which is how I do feel from at least three posts you've written this week alone. I know I don't have to read what you write but I like your thinking, just not some of the style.

So I am just writing to encourage you to keep talking, keep blowing off steam because it's interesting and maybe therapeutic, but maybe ask you to consider whether some of the blanket condemnations are over-reaching.

Directors put sometimes two years into a film. I put in, at most, six weeks. Every time they make a movie it's a huge career risk and we, as the last creative input in the process, sometimes have to handle a psychologically drained person who is not at his or her best. But I don't think they are exaggerating the fear and precariousness of their position, and in fact I think they deserve a certain measure of support and acceptance. Not everything, but quite a bit.

So, I look forward to reading more of your posts but encourage you maybe to have a look at what you've written and see if you could balance it out a bit here and there.


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## kid-surf (Dec 14, 2007)

Ok, I'll try... For more balance, that is. 

*Disclaimer -- for anyone I'm bothering. Don't read beyond this line. 

-----------

Hey, I warned you. 

Anyway...

I think part of the prob, is that I mainly only focus on what I see as problems (in film, not my problems specifically), concluding that the rest is fine and well, and therefore doesn't need to be discussed. Which, for me, is 95% of my life, professionally and otherwise (the everything is good part). Yet, my posts probably don't covey that.

I hope you don't get the impression that I'm a negative person. Far from it. I'm just very focused, and very driven about it all, yet opinionated on this subject (Politics? Totally apathetic. But I vote anyway.  ). But I do see how someone may conclude that my "views" here are who I am, totally and completely, as a person. Just say'n, not the case. So I do see your point.

I would like to point out that this strike has me really pissed right now, so maybe I'm more prickly than normal due to the strike and my distain for the AMPTP (Studios). Their willingness to cause so many good people hardship is unnerving. Talking mostly about those folks w/o savings who will have a very hard time providing for their families over the Holidays (the BTL folks mainly. But yes, some writers too. Not my wife's clients. The one's rep'd by, say, ICM.  ). But seriously, It really bothers me and is perhaps spilling over into these conversations. Probably a bit of venom spilling over into these chats. I admit that. 

Anyway... I'm not attempting to paint 100% of my experiences as bleak. I would say the bottom line is that I'm not meant to be a composer, due only to me knowing I can do my own - having already written a couple and working on a third as I wait for the strike to conclude. So, these issues, however frequent or not, may bother me more than those who love being a composer and only a composer. It might feel, for you, John, like being a composer's assistant -vs- Thee Composer. Just, wrong on a guy level. 

No, I don't I hate directors. Like you, I have a director pal I still kick it with. Likewise, we have dinner regularly and go to the movies etc. This director tends to like most of my cues and praised them the same as your buddy. Which I appreciated as well. Although, I'm guessing you've done much bigger gigs than me. And perhaps have had more creative fulfillment. I've generally felt I'm writing below myself to match the film/ad/whatever, if that makes any sense. I've not been doing this 10 years. This particular director just now, before the strike, got something set-up at Paramount. So I'm not in the camp where everyone I've worked with has big gigs now. 

I agree, these aspects (people) are part of any business. I see that. And like any other business situation that's not working for a person they've got the opportunity to allow for a solution. I do understand one can never fully escape the realties of business - Which isn't my intent nor suggestion. 

No, of course I don't expect composers to start swinging golf clubs in the streets. But on the other hand, blowing off a little steam maybe prevents us from ruining a perfectly good set of golf clubs. (or surfboard)  Perhaps other composers express frustration in ways I don't see? Or, maybe I've just had more annoying experiences than some? Although, you end that paragraph with something like I'd say. :D So, I don't know if it's that other composers feel the same and simply don't express it in ways I can see, or, if other composers are totally cool with the set up they're in?



> Directors put sometimes two years into a film. I put in, at most, six weeks. Every time they make a movie it's a huge career risk and we, as the last creative input in the process, sometimes have to handle a psychologically drained person who is not at his or her best. But I don't think they are exaggerating the fear and precariousness of their position, and in fact I think they deserve a certain measure of support and acceptance. Not everything, but quite a bit.



I hear you. Perhaps I didn't acclimate well to that scenario and therefore was not able to settle into that position more naturally..? All goes back to me scoring something I didn't write/create. I do understand that scoring those projects for most composers feels right, it's the creative marriage they are after. I also agree that someone must aid those directors who find themselves flipped out at the end of the process. So it's great there are those composers who are good at it. And ok with it. I agree. On the other hand, I can't help but find that to be a weak trait in a director. I just do. I don't personally know, and have never met Peter Jackson, but he strikes me as the sort of director who doesn't fray easily (w/a huge budget on his back). Which, in my opinion, is what a director needs to aspire to become, if he's/she's not that way already. But don't get me wrong, I'm relatively adapt at putting a director at ease too. I'm just done w/it. I listed my worst experiences, not my best. I've not come across that thread yet. 

This two year long (or longer) process is one I've already begun to establish. I agree that the road is very long. I'm currently on it. In the best case scenario I'm left to score my own film(s) at the end of a draining process. So I agree with you there as well, it's a crap load of work. All of it stressful. Especially when you wrote the script(s). My best case scenario is HELL. But it's MY hell, not someone else's. That's the only way I can think to describe to you why the work load doesn't bother me one bit from this perspective, but did as a composer. It's probably why I could never fully relate to composers and their views on the role of music in film. And, I never quite realized how much I disliked composing for others until I stopped doing it. So now it spills out... maybe too much. Agreed.

Yet, it may, or may not, surprise you to know that the last script I wrote is a comedy. The new one is a comedy as well. Not one lick of cynicism. (First one was a dark drama). Yet, if I get to direct either on of the comedies I'm probably not going to score all of it. In which case I'd be on the flip side. Hopefully w/o a composer thinking I'm a nut-sack with marginal talent. :D But instead a director who "gets" their process and is actually a blast to work with.

Anyway... I'll attempt to send a more chill vibe. Cool? <--- See? Come gimme some credit. :D

Although... dude, I'm a surfer/ex-skate punk. Completely mild mannered doesn't suit me. I'm ok with the label "opinionated", "maniac" (?) not so much. :D 

Was this one more balanced? Or just too many words?


KID


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## kid-surf (Dec 14, 2007)

One more thing...




> ...There is a huge surplus of composers compared with decent gigs and everyone on this board knows it and that's the reason for the rotten work conditions, not just evil directors; when you have 100 people sending in demo CDs for a student movie that pays nothing, it's not that surprising that some start to take the music for granted, especially inexperienced directors.




That part. I thought we were saying the same thing?

I don't ever intend to point to the lack of decent jobs having to do with evil directors. For one, it's pretty well documented that only 2% of all directors are clinically "evil". Secondly, the other 98% are only mildly evil. :D (joking)


I guess my point differed in that budget, for me, didn't necessarily reflect something I'd get creative fulfillment out of scoring. For example (no offense to whoever scored it), I wouldn't gain creative fulfillment scoring a film like Underdog. Some would say I wasn't good enough anyway. Which may be true. Instead I'd get more fulfillment out of scoring something with a great script. Which is really hard to find at any budget.


KID


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## midphase (Dec 14, 2007)

Whatever Kid says...I agree with 1000%


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## Angel (Dec 14, 2007)

I don't give a damn for words like "you are great! very talented" and so on...
Once I was a Co-Composer for a computergame and was invited to a developer's party. The head of this firm told everyone: "This is the guy who made the great music to our last game. He will do the music for the next one."

3 Weeks later I got an email where I was told, that he preferred a different team of composers.
That's it.

Nice, that he told me at least.

Angel


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## JohnG (Dec 14, 2007)

Hi Kid-Surf,

Well, a lot of very interesting thought in all that you write -- I really appreciate hearing about some of the other experiences and your writing for screen too. Actually, you do come across like a director! You have vision, you are uncompromising, you have a very personally-coloured point of view --- it's all there! I think all the great movies have been made by people who don't really listen to anyone else -- not saying that you 'can't' listen, but that you could be one of those guys in that role, based on your posts.

And of course what you are talking about is very true. I look forward to reading more of your postings.

An agent at ICM is setting up a meeting for me next week, coincidentally. He's not my agent, actually, but an old pal. Probably works with your wife!


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## kid-surf (Dec 14, 2007)

I knew Kays had love for me... It's mutual! Choc0 too. Let's not forget Choc0... 


Hi John,

Actually I was joking about ICM, taking a playful (loyalist) dig. My wife is at CAA. I was making the joke that ICM's writers don't work as much as CAA's. :D But no, ICM is obviously one of the best. Just not thee best. (see, I did it again) :D Although, for all I know CAA will pass on me and I'll end up at ICM... (or wherever else?) which would be weird. CAA is definitely the hardest place to get signed.

Having said that, hope your meeting goes well! Could be that my wife knows them.

Thanks for the nice words. I'm sure I probably come off like an egomaniac in type to some, but from my view, like you said, it's just vision. Exactly, I 'can' listen, I just don't want to. And yet, I realize that even as a director one must first listen to those around them, then react. At the same time one must fight for their vision or those surrounding will turn it into the film 'they all' would have done. I do acknowledge the scope and intricacy of this sort of battle.

I suppose the film world, to a large degree, is as it's supposed to be. (aside from the AMPTP, I mean) 

Anyway, have a great weekend!


KID


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## soul_studios (Dec 16, 2007)

JohnG @ Sat Dec 15 said:


> Actually, you do come across like a director! You have vision, you are uncompromising, you have a very personally-coloured point of view --- it's all there!



I personally think these qualities are those of some great composers, as well-
+1 to all your posts, kid. Student directors are idiots 90% of the time. They get their heads smacked in when they finally manage to score a paying job in the workforce and it's editing tv commercials together or putting the bleep tracks into sitcoms, but until then it's too much control for a young person. I've had student directors take responsibility for me doing a great score (in their opinion), when in fact they were kept out of the loop.
The most frustrating problem is, as kid says, green directors do not understand that it takes a lot of work to make good music.
I would like to see that change.
Matt


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## Daryl (Dec 18, 2007)

I think that anyone who intends to work as a composer for media should get used to the "rejection by silence" technique. As Alex North found out, the hard way........

Most of the pitches I do (paid ones only, thank you very much) fall into the category of plenty of contact up until the point when I don't get the gig (running at about 50% for this year). However, the gigs I do get more than compensate financially for those I don't get.

I think that you just have to get a bit arrogant and realise that you know more than the directors/producers/creatives about how music works with picture, and if they can't see it, then it's their loss. Obviously for commercials its only a couple of days lost each time, and I always make sure that whatever I write can be used for something else, so it's not wasted time.

I can't say that I like that way the system works, but I don't take it personally.

D


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## soul_studios (Dec 18, 2007)

Daryl @ Wed Dec 19 said:


> ... way the system works, but I don't take it personally.



.. The hardest part of any job  Good advice-
Matt


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## Waywyn (Dec 18, 2007)

rgames @ Thu Dec 13 said:


> Here's what I think we should do: let's set up a website where composers can list their experiences with directors. Or maybe it can be a sticky on this forum. Dunno. But it should exist somewhere, by golly!
> 
> We need something like the Unfair List that the musicians' union has.
> 
> rgames



To be honest, get over it. I know it is not the nicest situation, but that's the way it is. We are all just one of many composers reaching out for jobs. One gets it, the other(s) don't.

I had this situation too, were I applied for a job, did a demo and never heard something of the company again, not even a little thank you and not even something when I contacted them, if they liked it or not. I am not even sure if they used my stuff for the intro video for the final game master. Anyway, that's like it is sometimes. Shit happens 

But ... if you want to set up an unfair list, make sure it is anonymous, because if I would be producer I would have a quick check of that place, in case I want to hire a composer ..... and definitely do NOT choose any of the guys which are posting there  ... because they are either not good or just bashing around because they didn't make it for a job. Good and cool composers move on! 8)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 18, 2007)

"I'm sure I probably come off like an egomaniac in type to some, but from my view, like you said, it's just vision."

Now *that's* a line!


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## drasticmeasures (Dec 19, 2007)

"These directors don't give a crap about the composers because composers don't demand respect."

You nailed it.


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## _taylor (Dec 27, 2007)

Waywyn @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> rgames @ Thu Dec 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Here's what I think we should do: let's set up a website where composers can list their experiences with directors. Or maybe it can be a sticky on this forum. Dunno. But it should exist somewhere, by golly!
> ...



nail, head. you cant win them all.


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## Bruce Richardson (Dec 27, 2007)

Rejection: Yes, bad, but that's the price of looking for work.

Better method (my opinion): Don't look for work. Only do the work that looks for you.

This may seem counterintuitive, but it has worked for me for the last 25 years. I have never looked for work. I put myself out there when I moved to Dallas, started a band so I'd have exposure, and put together some big shows so people would know I can deliver a major project. After that, for the past couple of decades I only turn down work...I never look. And it's not as if I'm some mega-talent. I'm just a hack...with an attitude. o=< 

Mr. Surf has it completely right when he says it's a buyer's market. Art is always, and always will be, a buyer's market. No artist is entitled to a job. No artist is entitled to being treated fair. You have to throw that entitlement shit right out the window, and create a scene for yourself.

Can you look for work and get it? Yes. You can also put on a miniskirt and walk down the street offering to lick strangers' luv-pumps. Same power structure. You don't want that kind of work...


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## Bruce Richardson (Dec 27, 2007)

The other thing I'd say is that art/music is a relationship business, all other things being equal. So much so, that in most situations I've seen, the relationship aspect overshadows talent at least to a degree. In a field of roughly equal choices, people will choose to work with people they know, like, or would like to know. Or like. o-[][]-o


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## Waywyn (Dec 27, 2007)

Bruce, don't get me wrong but I read your post a little bit like from above ...

Seriously, if you never looked for work and just turn it down, you are not just a hack with an attitude, but you are also a damn lucky guy.

Sure, you can say that, when you reached a certain point in bizz, got a name, worked a few years, people start to know you, got some references out there, ... but not if you apply for work to make your rent and food or get a foot into bizz doors.

If I wouldn't have written my 500-1000 applications, worked for free and offered my services to every hobby project out there, grab the phone and called the whole world, I simply wouldn't be there - leaving talent aside, because I am also no super mega talent who shits score every morning  ... it isn't just as easy as sitting there and watching cooked chicken flying in your mouth


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## david robinson (Dec 28, 2007)

Bruce Richardson @ Thu Dec 27 said:


> The other thing I'd say is that art/music is a relationship business, all other things being equal. So much so, that in most situations I've seen, the relationship aspect overshadows talent at least to a degree. In a field of roughly equal choices, people will choose to work with people they know, like, or would like to know. Or like. o-[][]-o



hi guys,
strange as it sounds, Bruce R could be right with this.
i live in a large but smallish populated country.
when i was young, in the 60's i met a lot of very powerful people in the industry here, some of whom are now in residence in the US and Europe.
i did not know it at that time, obviously, how powerful some of these people would become. i just did my work and got paid.
the reason i met these types was because i was the guitarist in a rather popular band at that time, and five hits counts for a lot.
anyway, over the years i've been contacted by associates of these ppl, and asked to do work.
this, of course, i did.
not all was successful, but i keep on getting hired.
really, i've never asked why.
i'm thankful to them, that's all.
it goes beyond talent.
friendship - trust......
all counts.
i do not push, i don't act competitive.
i listen, i learn.
i don't care for marquee value.
yes, there have been fall-outs, and fall-out from it.
clashes have occurred and i knew that i wouldn't be hired by that faction again.
that's life.
plus, most of you guys are trained musically in some way.
this i never had the opportunity to do, because of the work.
i learnt my trade/skills as i went along.
in a larger more populated country i probably wouldn't have gotten the breaks i did.
the dice tumble........
best to all,
DR9.


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## PolarBear (Dec 28, 2007)

So if I were to summarize your post to a single word, Bruce, I think "talent" is what you described. The succeeding composers can do what they want, after they did things to pay the bills, because they had this little thing called talent. Do they like their work when they get back to the director and get a "no" on their last 2 days work? Do they like their work when they "want" to do what they would like but couldn't because there is someone saying "no"? I don't think it's much different to an average composers life, just the stakes are higher as well as the tools and the satisfaction. Not to forget about being the right guy at the right moment right there, which also equates to talent for me.

Cheers,
PolarBear


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## Patrick de Caumette (Dec 28, 2007)

Bruce suggestion is a good one.
It's not for everyone, but for those that have what it takes to create a buzz playing in a band, the advice is good (Elfman too did it that way...)


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## rayinstirling (Dec 29, 2007)

Bruce and Patrick say it all.
Although there are exceptions, performing comes before or together with greatness in writing.
Study may make experts but by performing you gain expertise.
Pretty average performing sometimes allows more realistic expectations of what works and what doesn't.
What's worse than having your music rejected? (Plan A)
If Plan B..C..D..E............ fail, you're really in trouble.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 31, 2007)

I dunno Bruce, but when I read a producer talking about spirituality I have an urge to head for the toilet


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## wonshu (Dec 31, 2007)

Well... a record producer is more like a director and the work is inherently very very linked to the creative process.

One of the big confusions for people:

Producer in the film world is a suit. 

Producer in the music world is an artist.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 31, 2007)

wonshu @ Mon Dec 31 said:


> Well... a record producer is more like a director and the work is inherently very very linked to the creative process.
> 
> One of the big confusions for people:
> 
> ...



ROTFL!

You have got to be kidding right? As a whole in the 30 years of working with record producers as I have they are perhaps the most jive, over-rated, and least creative group of individuals I have worked with.

Not all, I have also known some great ones but there are a lot of posers out there and very few that i would call "artists."


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## wonshu (Dec 31, 2007)

All the music producers I've met so far were way more creative than the musicians they worked with.

But that's just me I guess.

I do understand the point about the film producers though.

And now off to crazy Berlin downtown million people in the streets action.

Happy new year everyone.


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## Mike Greene (Jan 1, 2008)

Ashermusic @ Mon Dec 31 said:


> You have got to be kidding right? As a whole in the 30 years of working with record producers as I have they are perhaps the most jive, over-rated, and least creative group of individuals I have worked with.


Geez, Jay! First the Smalley book thread . . .now this! What, did you just find out I was sleeping with your wife?!?

:mrgreen:


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## Ashermusic (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike Greene @ Tue Jan 01 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon Dec 31 said:
> 
> 
> > You have got to be kidding right? As a whole in the 30 years of working with record producers as I have they are perhaps the most jive, over-rated, and least creative group of individuals I have worked with.
> ...



Hey Mike, Bruce, I said "Not all."

And OK, that statement may have been a little over the top :oops: 

But seriously, if you met SOME of the record producers I have met, sheesh....

One who is quite famous used to say regularly, "I kinda think I love it."

Jive Mutha #$%^r.


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## Mike Greene (Jan 2, 2008)

Ashermusic @ Wed Jan 02 said:


> Mike Greene @ Tue Jan 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Mon Dec 31 said:
> ...


I can't disagree with that. There's the old joke: "How many record producers does it take to change a light bulb?" 
Answer, "I don't know. What do _you_ think?"

And of course you know I didn't really take offense. Just saw an opportunity for a cheap joke! :mrgreen:


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## Ashermusic (Jan 2, 2008)

Mike Greene @ Wed Jan 02 said:


> Ashermusic @ Wed Jan 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike Greene @ Tue Jan 01 said:
> ...



Good you are the last guy I want to offend because I still harbor hopes you are going toe sell me that Vox Continental at a bargain price.


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## Daryl (Jan 3, 2008)

I think some of you guys just have to grow a thicker skin. Try pitching in Cattle Calls for commercials for a few years, and see how well you get treated. You really have to have confidence in your own ability, and sometimes the cavalier treatment that you get makes this difficult. However, when I'm doing a pitch I'm very careful only to pitch for those commercials where I think that the music I write could have a life on a library album. Sure I get paid a demo fee, but by the time that some "Creative" has messed me about for a few days and I still don't get the gig, the fee doesn't really measure up. With my philosophy, I've done the difficult bit; getting a musical idea that works well. Then the craft of making it into a full length track is just leg work.

I know some people who do a couple of pitches a week (often without a demo fee) and have maybe got 2 or 3 commercials over a three year period. It's not for the faint hearted. However, when just one commercial can make around £15,000, or even as much as £30,000 the stakes are worth playing for. Providing that you can take rejection. :wink: 

D


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## rgames (Jan 3, 2008)

Sure - handling rejection is one thing and is a necessary part of most endeavors I can think of (dating comes immediately to mind for some reason...).

My point in starting the thread was that I'm surprised by how often I never get any response after doing a spec cue. That's just plain old bad manners.

90% of my musical experience is as a performer and I've been doing auditions for most of my life. And I've been rejected a fair number of times. However, never have I gone in to do an audition and never heard back from the audition commitee. I'm just surprised that so many Directors/Assistants/etc. behave so differently when they're auditioning composers.

rgames


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## Daryl (Jan 3, 2008)

rgames @ Thu Jan 03 said:


> 90% of my musical experience is as a performer and I've been doing auditions for most of my life. And I've been rejected a fair number of times. However, never have I gone in to do an audition and never heard back from the audition commitee. I'm just surprised that so many Directors/Assistants/etc. behave so differently when they're auditioning composers.
> 
> rgames


However, there will be many times when you apply for a job and don't get a reply, if you're not going to get an audition.,

Don't be surprised by the bad manners of other people. Just make sure that when it's your turn to be the boss you don't treat anyone else in this manner. That way you will get loyal, hard-working and honest employees.

DG


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## Joanne Babunovic (Jan 3, 2008)

You are a composer in the olden days. If you wanted to hear your compositions in all their glory, you pretty much had to make music a career. It was the only way to position yourself to get regular access to an orchestra (or decent studio in later days) to hear your music. And in the olden days, composers could never have anyone else enjoy, hear their comps unless they made music a career, and had regular access to orchestras/musicians to play live in front of audiences or get a record contract or whatever. This was not something you could typically fund on your own. There are exceptions to these statements - but talking general concept. 

But today everybody regardless of profession can:

1) Afford to compose and produce near real renditions of your music in your off hours – which if you include evenings, weekends, and holidays, is lots of time and lots of music. 
2) Have all the people important to you hear and appreciate your comps: Fellow piers all over the globe, significant others, friends, family via mp3 internet and your website.
3) Continue to become the best you are meant to be through constructive critiques from people who know the craft. 
4) Receive all sort or recognition rom your piers when you produce something exceptional and hear feedback from those you respect. 
5) Enter and win contests competing against the best in the world to add metrics to your accomplishments.
6) Spend your time writing only what you want to write and not mundane or boring things.
7) Create a trust that wills 25K invested at 3% Treasury to your website after you die so your comps live for future generations to hear, benefit, and appreciate forever. The ultimate “Brooks was here” statement... 

Why would it be important to make a living/money at music composition today?


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## poseur (Jan 26, 2008)

might be (might have been) a worse scenario, for me:
director chooses something you've written that you feel is
crap, and insists this will be the NEW "main theme"
for the picture.
ha!


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## poseur (Jan 26, 2008)

Ashermusic @ Mon Dec 31 said:


> Not all, I have also known some great ones but there are a lot of posers out there and very few that i would call "artists."


as with all major generalisations about the "creative process":
no epithet nor prejudice is ever 100% functional nor accurate.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 26, 2008)

poseur @ 26/1/2008 said:


> might be (might have been) a worse scenario, for me:
> director chooses something you've written that you feel is
> crap, and insists this will be the NEW "main theme"
> for the picture.
> ha!



Perhaps, but I wonder why you would even let the director have access/hear anything that you deem 'crap'?


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## John DeBorde (Jan 26, 2008)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Jan 26 said:


> poseur @ 26/1/2008 said:
> 
> 
> > might be (might have been) a worse scenario, for me:
> ...



I've had this happen actually. Not that I sent them some 'crap', but I composed a demo based on some music they had used in the trailer, and they loved it so much they temped it all over the film! Only after seeing it in context did I realize how overblown it was for the scope of the film, and I was stuck with it at that point. And it was such a rush job I had to just go with it. I guess it made my life easier in the end, but I'm still reticent to refer people to this film as an example of my work.

There were actually several people who raved about the score to me, so some people liked it, but I definitely got a few snickering "what were you thinking"s which were a relief to me that it wasn't just me who thought the score was too big in places.

so there you go.

john


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## poseur (Jan 26, 2008)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Jan 26 said:


> poseur @ 26/1/2008 said:
> 
> 
> > might be (might have been) a worse scenario, for me:
> ...


a moment of weakness --- i disagreed w/his view of this
single scene's musical nature/emotional tenor as described by him,
as described by his "temp":
but, it was a short & seemingly unimportant issue,
so:
nice, flexible guy that i can occasionally be:
i delivered the wee ditty (with a clearly communicated caveat),
as he wished.

in isolation, it was kinda "cute"/"quirky" as a single 30-second cue,
and i didn't believe it capable of affecting the overall intent of the
arc & body of the score.

but:
when, late-in-the-game, he had a considerable change-of-heart re: the already approved score,
it was required of me to develop this wee "theme" into the opening titles theme:
quite a challenge, for me, as i had clearly said that i felt strongly that 
this quirky theme was not one i felt was suitable for development.

indeed, it turned out to be a fantastic exercise,
as i sought & found ways to integrate the previously-approved main titles
theme with the little ditty that he (apparently) so loved.


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## JohnG (Jan 26, 2008)

poseur, that is very interesting.

I find that I often write stuff that I (sometimes later) like a lot that I 'never' would have written had the score been left entirely (or partly?!) up to me as far as taste.

I am actually scoring the first movie in a long time that has almost no temp -- even the temp that's in there has been largely disavowed by the director. I had written and recorded midi versions of about 11 minutes of the score before I really understood what the director wanted.

I can't say there was a creative issue -- I am very fine going with a more cartoonish version than I had at first; it's a comedy but these guys are in the military and there's all this action -- helicopters, tanks etc. -- so I was playing the 'straight man' with the score and as it happened the director had already received comments in screenings that the movie got too serious.

Anyway, it was quite an about-face and only a portion of what I'd already done is going to stay in there, but it's a lot of fun to go into the more cartoonish vein anyway.

Which, somehow, relates in some way to your post.


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## poseur (Jan 26, 2008)

JohnG @ Sat Jan 26 said:


> poseur, that is very interesting.
> 
> I find that I often write stuff that I (sometimes later) like a lot that I 'never' would have written had the score been left entirely (or partly?!) up to me as far as taste.


dig.
in the best of situations, i'd like to think that this is the creative result
--- intended, or sometimes unintended ---
of the actuality of "collaboration" that makes the film-scoring process
what it is.

in my own situation (as described above), it took me a minute to
understand the change-of-direction, but i did understand and deliver;
i will always, i think, feel that the original main-titles offered the film
more of the set-up of "depth" that i felt was needed:
of course, that is not our sole call-to-make, i think.....



JohnG @ Sat Jan 26 said:


> I am actually scoring the first movie in a long time that has almost no temp -- even the temp that's in there has been largely disavowed by the director. I had written and recorded midi versions of about 11 minutes of the score before I really understood what the director wanted.
> 
> I can't say there was a creative issue -- I am very fine going with a more cartoonish version than I had at first; it's a comedy but these guys are in the military and there's all this action -- helicopters, tanks etc. -- so I was playing the 'straight man' with the score and as it happened the director had already received comments in screenings that the movie got too serious.
> 
> ...


ha!
i hear all that.

d


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## poseur (Jan 26, 2008)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Jan 26 said:


> Perhaps, but I wonder why you would even let the director have access/hear anything that you deem 'crap'?


ned.
i had to think about that question, again.
in my experience, to date, it seems that i tend to write quite a bit of material;
sometimes, in meetings with a director, i might just throw a whole buncha
widely varying stuff "against the wall" in order to see their reactions.....
..... most especially when i haven't been capable of understanding their words,
and how their words relate to my feelings about their temp.
just fwiw.

d


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 26, 2008)

I understand, but I still am not sure that it's a good idea to add any crappy stuff in the submission pot. But if you substitue 'crap' with 'inappropriate' then I can completely relate. Sometimes what you think is waaayyyyy off, the director finds perfect - go figure! :lol:


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