# Berlin Strings test on Mozart



## Levitanus (Aug 13, 2016)

I've tested not long time ago Berlin Strings for suited in template and wan to say that it is the perfect library. I was a little bit lasy  but want to show theirs opportunities on classic

[AUDIOPLUS=http://vi-control.net/community/attachments/berlin-eine-kleine-mp3.6020/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Levitanus (Aug 13, 2016)

@Silence-is-Golden, Thanks! May be not dry but not defined in far-close precision enough (2nd vi and violas should be further). But with the whole orchestra it shod be enough for not get brass and percussion too wet, I think.
You may call me mercantilist, but it's not paid work (especially when you have wife and daughter it's the matter). So I was need only to be sure of opportunities. As with Prokofiev performed with SSSE. My be that is reason why I not write much by myself


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## erica-grace (Aug 13, 2016)

Sounds nice, but for me, the attacks are too soft.


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## JonFairhurst (Aug 15, 2016)

erica-grace said:


> Sounds nice, but for me, the attacks are too soft.



Yes, for Mozart, the attacks are a bit too soft and the notes too long.

I took up violin a while ago and play in a community orchestra. Our director is a top performer and has a PhD in music from the Tchaikovsky Conservatory in Moscow. A consistent theme is that we need to play short notes on Mozart, minuets, etc. The unmarked notes need to be crisp, light, and fun - like dancing. When notes are marked with an attack or staccato, they need to be exaggerated. If it's not marked legato, it isn't legato. There are some fast runs in Symphony 25 1st movement that I would love to play legato (as it's easier), but I need to bow up-down-up-down very quickly to get the right effect.

Shortening the MIDI notes might help, but I have to wonder if certain libs suit Mozart better than others. I would guess that VSL would be a leader, given that Vienna is the city of Mozart and Strauss.

Do you perform on any instruments? You might try playing the melody live (on piano, guitar, flute, whatever) to get a feel for the attack and duration that gives the feeling of light dancing. Experiment with short and long notes. Once you get the feeling, you can apply it to your mockups.

Also, are you programming with a mouse, or playing it in live with a keyboard? Playing it live makes it easy to shorten the notes in a human way. Using a mouse can be time consuming.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 15, 2016)

I have done myself some time ago a rendition of that piece and it is not easy.. I find your interpretation and treatment needs some improvement here because it lacks of epxression and definition and it has too much reverb. Such pieces you can´t drown into that much sausse of reverberation btw. I have done that rendition also with Berlin Strings..Use more Close micings, and a mix of slight mix of ambience and tree micings (-10 dB), shorten down the release times a little and try to bring your VI to the extremes regarding dynamics. Use a reference with A/B Comarison in your daw all the time bar by bar. Try to select very carefully the articulations and work with the repetition patches also. Bounce back manually bar by bar the tempo from a reference that helps getting your stiff tempo into a bit more livelines. Spent more time with it. Last but not least: eliminate that crowd in the beginning, that´s not helping at least at this stage of your production.


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## Levitanus (Aug 15, 2016)

Thanks for the correction!
@JonFairhurst, Yep, i played it within keyboard, and i'm pianist. Other matter that our work with Mozart consist not to be sharp, but in trying to find as much articulations as we can, making it like a talking in sun filled day, but not to make them jumping or sharpens, so i've never thought about attacks...


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## Silence-is-Golden (Aug 15, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Last but not least: eliminate that crowd in the beginning, that´s not helping at least at this stage of your production.


This 'crowd' has been eliminated


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 15, 2016)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> This 'crowd' has been eliminated


Whatever that is..it is still there. But that isn´t that important right now, but the other points I mentioned regarding his midi treatment. Question is at least for me: @Levitanus : Are you willing to work more on that piece? You entitled yourself as beeing lazy here, I hope you go with different feelings out of your next session.


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## Levitanus (Aug 15, 2016)

@AlexanderSchiborr, no, I won't work more on this piece, but feedback is very useful. What about then i'm lazy - 


Levitanus said:


> I was a little bit lasy


I have works without this defect, I think


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 15, 2016)

Levitanus said:


> @AlexanderSchiborr, no, I won't work more on this piece, but feedback is very useful. What about then i'm lazy -
> 
> I have works without this defect, I think



I don´t know you and so I don´t know if you are in general, but as you mentioned it here in your initial post I was having the impression that you are being yourself not that sure about your track and so I hoped that you use the feedback here and head on working more on your mockup. That you decide, after this few bars to stop is a bummer, sure it is up to you and still it tells me that my feedback here is nothing worth in the end, unfortunately.


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## Levitanus (Aug 15, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> my feedback here is nothing worth in the end.


It'd not that, feedback is useful when it is heard. And it will be mentioned in the future works. Especially I hope to make one huge mocup with pre-recorded solo part this year. Classical is another matter than anything else could be done with samples, yep. And Some thoughts are very useful


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 15, 2016)

Levitanus said:


> It'd not that, feedback is useful when it is heard. And it will be mentioned in the future works. Especially I hope to make one huge mocup with pre-recorded solo part this year. Classical is another matter than anything else could be done with samples, yep. And Some thoughts are very useful


Yes, when it is heard that is indeed a good thing and when you use it and revise your track it is even a better thing to do. I claim the following: As other pieces have different requirements in astethics and midi treatment, your next rendition will not be better because you don´t learn when you don´t bite yourself through that one piece here. What you had created here is a very basic starting point which is good but now it is up to you what you do out of it and bring it to a next level. Don´t know if that makes sense to your working and learning philosophy but I tell you that this is mine and from my experience it works very well. Anyways good luck with your future endeavors


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## Dave Connor (Aug 16, 2016)

JonFairhurst said:


> Our director is a top performer and has a PhD in music from the Tchaikovsky Conservatory in Moscow. A consistent theme is that we need to play short notes on Mozart, Symphony 25.


Your director also has very good taste. That's a wonderful creative work but W.A. Mozart. Doesn't get talked about enough.


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## JonFairhurst (Aug 16, 2016)

Thanks for the compliment on having very good taste, Dave. I suggested Symphony 25 and the director agreed.  In fact, I get the role of concertmaster for that piece (which is an amazing opportunity, given that I've been playing violin for less than two years.) She purposefully has us change seating positions so that all violinists who are willing get a chance to sit in the first chair. On one piece, our concertmaster is something like nine years old, and she puts full responsibility on his shoulders to lift the violin after a long rest at the proper time, and to do the bowing correctly. 

Back on Mozart #25, it's really a wonderful piece. One can practice Violin 1 or Violin 2 solo and the performance holds fully together, clearly presenting melody, chord structure and rhythm with a single horizontal line. This composition is the result of pure genius.


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## Levitanus (Aug 17, 2016)

@AlexanderSchiborr, Does this feel lazy?
I agreed with you that some practice need before the main task, but now too many classic in work with piano, can't hear Mozart no more... So some a bit newer. Yep, the main strings work is further, but it will be some later.
P.S. Where find the happiness with kiksing horn? 
P.P.S. Took Pletnev recording as reference, but they playing more than is in the score. I hear horns where they aren't and don't now how to handle with it.

[AUDIOPLUS=http://vi-control.net/community/attachments/5-firebird-mp3.6055/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Dave Connor (Aug 17, 2016)

JonFairhurst said:


> Thanks for the compliment on having very good taste, Dave. I suggested Symphony 25 and the director agreed.  In fact, I get the role of concertmaster for that piece (which is an amazing opportunity, given that I've been playing violin for less than two years.) She purposefully has us change seating positions so that all violinists who are willing get a chance to sit in the first chair. On one piece, our concertmaster is something like nine years old, and she puts full responsibility on his shoulders to lift the violin after a long rest at the proper time, and to do the bowing correctly.
> 
> Back on Mozart #25, it's really a wonderful piece. One can practice Violin 1 or Violin 2 solo and the performance holds fully together, clearly presenting melody, chord structure and rhythm with a single horizontal line. This composition is the result of pure genius.


Ahh your good taste! I'm not surprised Jon. To hear that symphony is to want to tell the world about it. Don't know how you're doing anything with a violin after two years so that's something. Can't even imagine being a concertmaster on a Mozart Symphony. That's got to be heaven. I'll have to settle for CD and score : )


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## JonFairhurst (Aug 17, 2016)

Dave Connor said:


> ...Don't know how you're doing anything with a violin after two years so that's something. Can't even imagine being a concertmaster on a Mozart Symphony. That's got to be heaven...



Learning guitar from a young age was the key. I wish I was better at sight reading (and was complimented on it recently), but frankly, I learn to hear the music first and later use sheetmusic as a set of guideposts. Composing for strings before learning the instrument was backwards, but it was good to know all about the ways one *could* bow and how the articulations sound before doing it.

Also, my wife had bought me a cheap, $100 violin/bow/case some time ago. It was so bad that I cut 5/8-inch (16mm) off the bridge and it was still too high! But I learned the theory of how it was played and learned how to make some sounds from it. When nobody was home, I'd improvise horrible, screeching tones along with blues and rock. All of this helped my to compose for strings as I could test fingerings to see if they were realistic and could play with bowing patterns - even if I couldn't play the music I wrote whatsoever. Seriously, had you asked me to play "twinkle", I'd have barely been able to hack it out back then. But it was great preparation.* I recommend that all composers have a cheap violin on hand, even if they never plan to really perform on it.* 

Then in December 2014, the community orchestra at a local church played some Christmas songs badly and invited any and all to join. I practiced for a couple of months, joined, and quickly upgraded to a $900 violin. I just played quietly (or silently) on the parts that I couldn't really do. It was probably April or May before I could do vibrato. This past spring, we played Hoe Down and I could mostly keep up. Symphony #25 is not nearly so fast, but it forces me to play some upper positions. I don't find it terribly difficult to play but it's a challenge to play really well. Sitting in the first chair forces me to work hard at it. Now it comes full circle, as I have a much better idea about what is and isn't playable when I compose.

Anyway, if you don't have a violin/viola/cello, take a look a craigslist and don't be afraid to buy a cheap piece of junk as long as it's in one piece and can make sound. It's a great tool for understanding what a string players do and allows one to test things out. For instance, how much time does one need between pizz and arco? Hold the bow, pluck some strings, and see how long it takes to get the horse hair back on the cat gut. Even the art of holding the bow can take a while to learn and feel comfortable with. And if nothing else, one can mount it on the wall as a nice decoration. And who knows? It might even lead to lessons and performance.


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## JonFairhurst (Aug 17, 2016)

One more thought on Mozart #25: It starts out very agitated - like a chase. Then after the first phrases are played, the music becomes soft and gentle on top of the same/similar chords. Last month, we played from the beginning through the soft part, and our director abruptly stopped us. She pointed out that we had done that so well that it gave her goosebumps. And you know what? I had them too.

And this was with only about seven or eight of us amateurs playing, including one cello, one viola, and one flute (playing the oboe part.)

Yes, the composition is that amazingly good.

And so is live performance. If anybody can mock up Mozart and give people goosebumps, please let me know what library you used.


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## Dave Connor (Aug 17, 2016)

JonFairhurst said:


> Anyway, if you don't have a violin/viola/cello, take a look a craigslist and don't be afraid to buy a cheap piece of junk as long as it's in one piece and can make sound. It's a great tool for understanding what a string players do and allows one to test things out.


 Honestly your making me want to run out and get one! We'll see! Time to revisit that symphony in any case.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 17, 2016)

Levitanus said:


> @AlexanderSchiborr, Does this feel lazy?
> I agreed with you that some practice need before the main task, but now too many classic in work with piano, can't hear Mozart no more... So some a bit newer. Yep, the main strings work is further, but it will be some later.
> P.S. Where find the happiness with kiksing horn?
> P.P.S. Took Pletnev recording as reference, but they playing more than is in the score. I hear horns where they aren't and don't now how to handle with it.
> ...



First: Dude, That is terrifying great!... But that we understand correct each other: You started of telling others that you might being lazy yourself with the mozart piece, right. Second: Work on the Mozart piece as my constructive critic was aimed to that! Was the thread about Mozart, or something else? Are you willing to work on that, do you? Or do you need to compensate something else? Go and work on that mozart piece, if you don´t want that to do, it is (repeat) up to you, but imo you don´t learn anything, so in the end: I think I have said everything I needed to say related to subject and your mozart mockup.


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## re-peat (Aug 18, 2016)

Levitanus said:


> Took Pletnev recording as reference, but they playing more than is in the score. I hear horns where they aren't and don't now how to handle with it.


Levitanus,

There exist four versions of "The Firebird": the full ballet (1910) for a larger-than-large orchestra, and then three different suites, the last of these published in 1945. The suites are all scored for smaller, though still substantial orchestral forces. Pletnev recorded the 1945 suite (at least, on Deutsche Gramophone he did). Don't know what score you're working from, but if it isn't the 1945 one, you're going to run into several discrepancies between what you hear and what you read, yes.

You need a lot more tighter, snappier and crisper articulations in your Firebird, by the way. What you have at the moment sounds a bit like a blurred aquarel version of The Firebird, one that has its contours smeared and its edges softened.

_


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## Levitanus (Aug 18, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Are you willing to work on that, do you? Or do you need to compensate something else?


As I said. I've classical music in work a lot at the moment. I love Mozart, but now working with one more piece of Him hurts 
I thought that one more theme with almost the same discussion (for the "firebird") isn't necessary. Sorry if i'm wrong... But I have a passion to make whole this dance. What about study something - There will be the abyss of strings work, which starts just from the next bar. I sure this won't be easier than symphony.

@re-peat, Thanks for such useful information! Yep, my score from 1911 suite. That explains a lot.
Morning has came and i feel now this smoothness. At the night i was afraid of too loud and argue beginning. Even put expression down on all winds and brass. But real feel came with strings only in the mocup... Will be fixed tonight 
Hardly with SM make some kind of tenutet 8th or dotted 4th. But i feel nothing else can perform this piece. Spitfire is transparent shadow of complex brass section...
P.S. About tightness... I'll try make it a little bit tighter but very afraid of "robotic" sounds, like i've heard with one mocup of it.


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