# Contemplating the Unthinkable - Switching to PC



## 5Lives (Jul 17, 2016)

Hello all,

I've been on Macs for probably almost 15 years now and they've treated me very well. Highly stable, well designed, beautiful looking. However, Apple's general approach to computer hardware is really starting to get to me - the slow updates, the insane cost, etc. I am running a maxed out mid 2014 Macbook Pro, but I'm limited to 16GB of RAM. I've contemplated getting a slave computer, but I really prefer keeping everything on a single machine. I originally got the MBP because I wanted portability (and didn't want to lug around my old Mac Pro tower). However, I've learned that I don't need the portability now (and if I did, I'd get a Macbook Air / Surface). I started configuring various PC builds when looking into getting a slave and it's amazing how much computer you can get for the money - latest i7 Skylakes, 64GB of RAM, USB-C, etc. and all housed in pretty small mini-ATX / ITX cases. AND they're upgradable!

So I ask you all (especially those that have moved their main DAW from Mac to PC), is / was switching to PC worth it for you? Any major issues? Any things you miss from Mac?

I use Cubase / PT / Studio One, so I am x-platform in that sense (along with Photoshop and Lightroom). I do have Logic but I rarely use it these days. The one thing I have right now which wouldn't transfer is an Apollo Twin Duo Thunderbolt (but I believe they make a USB version I could get).

Cheers all!


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## AlexRuger (Jul 17, 2016)

I say do it. I've been making the slow switch from Mac only, to Mac plus PC slave, to dual-booting my Mac, and when I can will move over full-time to one single beast of a PC. The only reason I'm still on a Mac now is because I do some work for some composers that requires me to use Logic (I'm a Cubase user myself).

If you want to stay within the PC tower architecture, Windows will very soon be the only way to go, as future Apple OS's aren't and/or won't support PCI cards. For example, I just looked into adding a USB3 card to my Mac Pro (late 2010 running Yosemite) and the card was last supported by Mountain Lion.


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## JohnG (Jul 17, 2016)

Hi there,

You don't have to go all the way to the Dark Side.

I addressed some of your concerns by doing what I think many do -- buying highly upgraded / refurbished but used older Macintoshes. I have a 2008 and a 2009 (pro tools and DAW, respectively). The DAW has twelve 3.46 GHz cores and 64 GB of RAM (but could have had 128, just don't need that much in the DAW because I prefer slaves). Expensive but nowhere near as expensive as a new Apple would have been.

I also run PCs and they do work well once you spend enough time tweaking their operating systems, BIOS, etc. etc. etc.. That said, if you think Apple is unresponsive, wait until you get reacquainted with Microsoft. From my perspective, they have imported some of Apple's worst ideas while retaining many of their own problems. 

The most conspicuous problem I keep reading about on the PC side is involuntary updating of the OS. I don't connect my slave PCs to the Internet, but I have yet to find a genuinely fool-proof way to put a final stop to their auto-updating themselves without your say-so. Possibly I'm out of date on this one, but last time I looked into it, the best one could do was to _postpone_ that, not stymie it completely. The most annoying aspect of at least one of these updates for me was that it turned back on innumerable OS "features" that I'd deliberately switched off, as they have no relevance to music.

Good luck with your decision.

[edit: one last word -- if you do build a PC make sure you get plenty of circulation. The smaller towers look tidy but, as you may know, air circulation is one of the best ways to preserve good performance and long life in your components. Unless space is a serious problem, the first consideration should be cooling the computers.]


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## JohnG (Jul 17, 2016)

AlexRuger said:


> future Apple OS's aren't and/or won't support PCI cards



Hi Alex -- You mean PCI or PCIe or -- all cards? Just curious. I'm using some ancient PCI cards with Yosemite but I am not surprised to hear that they might not be supported indefinitely.


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## samphony (Jul 17, 2016)

I'm test driving my Mac Pro Vader with Windows 10 pro for a new project and it is a beast!!!

Win automatically installed a tool to manage the dual graphic cards.


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## jonnybutter (Jul 17, 2016)

I don't know why you would want to limit yourself to being able to boot only one OS. Build exactly what you want, hardware wise, and dual boot. Or, like Alex said, get an older mac pro tower, which will be stable and is no longer ridiculously expensive, and set that up as a dual boot.


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## AlexRuger (Jul 17, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Hi Alex -- You mean PCI or PCIe or -- all cards? Just curious. I'm using some ancient PCI cards with Yosemite but I am not surprised to hear that they might not be supported indefinitely.



I guess only PCIe are what I've tried, but the point stands: many that I've come across stopped being supported with Mavericks or Yosemite When I bought my Mac Pro (used), it came with about 4 cards that I couldn't use with Yosemite (all were USB3 or SATA cards--would've been useful!). I ended up selling them so it wasn't a huge deal, but it did make me realize that in the near future, using OS X in a "traditional" tower format will be impossible without resorting to Hackintosh, which I refuse to do. On the Windows side, the tower format will be around a long time thanks to gaming.

And good point about circulation--definitely go with at least a mid-tower. I don't understand the obsession with small when it comes to desktop computers--I'd happily buy the largest case possible if it means more room for cards/drives/air flow!

Edit: obviously things like RME MADI cards will work. I'm just saying that more of utilitarian cards (I/O, mainly) won't.


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## 5Lives (Jul 17, 2016)

jonnybutter said:


> I don't know why you would want to limit yourself to being able to boot only one OS. Build exactly what you want, hardware wise, and dual boot. Or, like Alex said, get an older mac pro tower, which will be stable and is no longer ridiculously expensive, and set that up as a dual boot.



I'm not really interested in trying the Hackintosh route because that seems more trouble than it is worth. And it is less about dual booting and more about leveraging the hardware available to PCs.

Getting an old Mac Pro tower is an option, but they are pretty maxed out in terms of upgradability now (in terms of motherboard, CPU, etc.). Also are just ginormous and heavy.


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## elpedro (Jul 17, 2016)

I never used anything but PC, works fine, once you know the tweaks...plenty of youtube's on how to tweak them...


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## AlexRuger (Jul 17, 2016)

5Lives said:


> I'm not really interested in trying the Hackintosh route because that seems more trouble than it is worth. And it is less about dual booting and more about leveraging the hardware available to PCs.
> 
> Getting an old Mac Pro tower is an option, but they are pretty maxed out in terms of upgradability now (in terms of motherboard, CPU, etc.). Also are just ginormous and heavy.



Yeah, Hackintosh is a great route if you aren't relying on the machine for your living, but if you're a pro it's just scary. And upgrading? Forget about it.

And yeah, I'm with you. The other issue with an older Mac Pro tower is that, sure, it might have a badass Xeon--but it's a badass Xeon from 2010. On-paper specs aren't everything, as processors with identical specs from 2010 and 2016 will perform quite differently.


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## gsilbers (Jul 17, 2016)

i did the upgrade path that johng is talking about. i dont move it around so its not a big deal if its that big. 
i still can add more ram and the cpu is pretty fast with the upgrade. 

i am also thinking into going the windows side. mostly because apple is turning more and more into a iphone only type of platform. smaller smaller for less processing web apps. and basically mac OS is being iOSified . its obvious that apple plan in the future is not in the desktop market. 
i use logic so its a issue. 

now, after using windows for other stuff im not too against it. some things are diferent, some things are better and some other things are worst. 

to me the most hassle is how overly compliocated is to tinckle with windows. it give way too many options and all of them you need some sort of IT degree to figure out.


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## Replicant (Jul 17, 2016)

I have a bit of experience with the reverse scenario, actually.

A couple of years ago, when I was at school for digital audio, the teachers _swore _by Macs and that's all we used. I'd always used PC, but to me it didn't matter what I used for music as long as it worked. They had the highest end Macs I think you could get in 2014 and it was drilled into my head how much better Mac does _everything_ and "every audio professional uses one", but I swear to you, there was nothing these expensive computers did that my current PC, which cost me just $600 doesn't do just as well with equal stability.

So I'd say do it. You can build or even buy and then make minor upgrades to highly customizable computers that will do exactly what you need at a fraction of the price you used to pay. 

I would say siding with Apple is only worth it if you have a lot invested in Mac-only hardware/software already.


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## rgames (Jul 17, 2016)

Regarding tweaks to Windows - I've never found them to be useful from a practical standpoint. And I've spent a LOT more time than most folks looking for ways to improve performance. There are some that will improve performance on benchmarks, so if your goal is to run benchmarks then tweak away.

It used to be true (before Windows XP) that you could squeeze some extra performance from a PC by doing some in-depth tweaking but, in my experience, those days are long gone. But the perception persists. I just replaced my five-year-old slave machine with a new one and again went through all the supposed magical tweaks to improve performance. As I did five years ago, I couldn't find any tweaks that produced a practical benefit (e.g. more voices at a given latency).

In my experience, you don't need to tweak anything with decent hardware and a CLEAN installation of Windows.

Of course, that's my experience. And absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But it's pretty odd that I've spent so much time looking for the effects of these magical tweaks and have never been able to find them. Actually that's not true - I have seen evidence that they make performance worse...

rgames


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## 5Lives (Jul 17, 2016)

Any recommended pre-made computers for DAW use? Contemplating building my own, but if the price is right, getting a pre-built one is less hassle.


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## jamwerks (Jul 18, 2016)

Modern PC's are what mac's used to be imo. Only one reason to buy Mac is if you prefer Logic. No tweaking or special knowledge required to switch. Mac doesn't even make a Pro machine anymore suited for audio. 

Simple stuff like overclocking, SSD's, M2's, is standard on PC's. You will have to mentally prepare yourself for the shock of having much more money to spend elsewhere, but you'll get used to it!


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## OleJoergensen (Jul 18, 2016)

rgames said:


> Regarding tweaks to Windows - I've never found them to be useful from a practical standpoint. And I've spent a LOT more time than most folks looking for ways to improve performance. There are some that will improve performance on benchmarks, so if your goal is to run benchmarks then tweak away.
> 
> It used to be true (before Windows XP) that you could squeeze some extra performance from a PC by doing some in-depth tweaking but, in my experience, those days are long gone. But the perception persists. I just replaced my five-year-old slave machine with a new one and again went through all the supposed magical tweaks to improve performance. As I did five years ago, I couldn't find any tweaks that produced a practical benefit (e.g. more voices at a given latency).
> 
> ...


Can I ask do you use windows 7 or 10?


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## Prockamanisc (Jul 18, 2016)

I know you said you didn't want to, but I'd suggest a slave. You can even install your DAW onto the slave and use it to see if you like it, but a slave would be the best of both worlds.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 18, 2016)

I am on a Mac with a PC slave and it will stay that way because of Logic Pro, but if I were a Cubase guy, I would have an inexpensive Mac for every day life and a beastly PC for Cubase.

The biggest adjustment for me when going back and forth is the difference in the names of the places things get put. But that is all easily learnable. Of course, if you are not ordering a pre-built one, you need to make sure that the stuff you buy works well together. Mine certainly does.


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## CACKLAND (Jul 18, 2016)

New to the forum. Just recently build a brand new PC for my composing, switched from 5K Retina IMac.

Intel Core i7 5930K 4.6 Ghz (6 Core), X99 mATX Motherboard, 64 GB Dominator Platinum RAM, Multiple Samsung SSD + Nvme SSD, Nvidia GeForce GTX 980 Ti, Water Cooled Etc.

Happy to help building or answering any PC questions.


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## 5Lives (Jul 18, 2016)

CACKLAND said:


> New to the forum. Just recently build a brand new PC for my composing, switched from 5K Retina IMac.
> 
> Intel Core i7 5930K 4.6 Ghz (6 Core), X99 mATX Motherboard, 64 GB Dominator Platinum RAM, Multiple Samsung SSD + Nvme SSD, Nvidia GeForce GTX 980 Ti, Water Cooled Etc.
> 
> Happy to help building or answering any PC questions.



How much did that cost you all together?


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## CACKLAND (Jul 18, 2016)

Around $4K, excluding additional items here and there. Did a lot of research regarding components needed and sourced them accordingly. There were many components that perhaps I didn't need to splurge on, however the sole purpose of this machine was to compose (and play the odd game)

The best part about my setup in comparison to the 5K IMac, is
1) Completely upgradeable
2) More powerful
3) Extremely portable (Custom mATX Case designed in England)

EDIT: This is Australian Dollars.

More than happy to help you go through the components required for your setup accordingly. Most likely would be cheaper depending on where you are located.


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## rgames (Jul 18, 2016)

OleJoergensen said:


> Can I ask do you use windows 7 or 10?


I've been moving from 7 to 10 over the past year. I couldn't find benefits from tweaks on either.


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## jamwerks (Jul 18, 2016)

Here W10 feels more efficient than 8.1 was. No reason not to go 10 imo.


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## kunst91 (Jul 18, 2016)

AlexRuger said:


> I say do it. I've been making the slow switch from Mac only, to Mac plus PC slave, to dual-booting my Mac, and when I can will move over full-time to one single beast of a PC. The only reason I'm still on a Mac now is because I do some work for some composers that requires me to use Logic (I'm a Cubase user myself).
> 
> If you want to stay within the PC tower architecture, Windows will very soon be the only way to go, as future Apple OS's aren't and/or won't support PCI cards. For example, I just looked into adding a USB3 card to my Mac Pro (late 2010 running Yosemite) and the card was last supported by Mountain Lion.



Im in a similar boat here--the issue with the switch to PC would mean giving up logic and the simplicity of my setup (exs24, es2, stock plugins). I know some guys who have these massive dual xeon visiondaws, and it's incredibly tempting to go down that road (especially the cost effectiveness of it all). I use cubase more and more now, but I'm not sure if I could ever give up logic and the reliability of my Mac.


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## OleJoergensen (Jul 18, 2016)

rgames said:


> I've been moving from 7 to 10 over the past year. I couldn't find benefits from tweaks on either.


Thank you.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jul 18, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Hi there,
> 
> You don't have to go all the way to the Dark Side.
> 
> ...



John, certainly you can turn off Windows update. In fact one of the best things about Windows as an OS is that I can run programs 15 years old even today on almost any Windows OS. Unlike Apple which has a habit to stop supporting certain tech on a regular basis. 

To the OP:

I think Windows as an OS is just as good as Mac. What you need to be careful about is the build. 

This is where Macs are superior and this is the route cause of all hate attributed to Windows for the wrong reasons. Apple will gaurauntee the compatibilities within their machine as they are responsible for both the OS and the hardware. Microsoft does not make the hardware. This simple concept has been misunderstood for decades. 

If the hardware is not put together properly and logically with all compatibilities in mind, you will run into problems.

I would highly suggest getting a PC built by a good system integrator/DAW builder. 

Any other way is pure luck unless you have the time and knowledge to make one yourself. 

Apple also charges a hefty sum because of their design which is quite nice in terms of build quality and it's really simple. You just go to the store and there are a select few models made to high standards. 

With a PC, it can be a headache for most people. So many components, so many different companies. 

That's why the trick to all this is to get a system from a DAW builder who knows how to do this well. 

After that, you will experience power and stability which will rival the best days of Macs.

Good luck! 

PS: overclocking works! Don't fear it, get a great guy to do it for you and enjoy your time making music


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## 5Lives (Jul 18, 2016)

Good points all. What's a good resource for component stability / compatability? I've been trying to put together configs on PC Part Picker.


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## kunst91 (Jul 18, 2016)

5Lives said:


> Good points all. What's a good resource for component stability / compatability? I've been trying to put together configs on PC Part Picker.



I've never had a problem with PC part picker. That said I agree that it's worth the extra money to go with a great daw builder. Even with the additional cost you're still getting more for your money relative to a comparable Mac


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## CACKLAND (Jul 18, 2016)

Personally I believe everyone can build PC, its extremely easy and PC Part Picker is a great platform to understand what components compliment each other. If you are into technology, do a little research and build your own.

The question remains, what kind of specifications do you require?


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## JohnG (Jul 18, 2016)

Tanuj Tiku said:


> John, certainly you can turn off Windows update.



How? I mean that would be great but I dropped the quest once I had things sorted out since I almost never plug those PCs into the internet. 

Initially, it seemed one could only postpone updates in Windows 10. I tried turning off the "service" and it turned itself back on. But that may be out of date now.


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## AlexRuger (Jul 18, 2016)

JohnG said:


> How? I mean that would be great but I dropped the quest once I had things sorted out since I almost never plug those PCs into the internet.
> 
> Initially, it seemed one could only postpone updates in Windows 10. I tried turning off the "service" and it turned itself back on. But that may be out of date now.



Assuming you're on Windows 7: yes, turning off all the updates _besides _the Windows 10 update is very easy and accessible.

And blocking Windows 10 is super easy with this app: http://www.pcworld.com/article/3048...solutely-positively-dont-want-windows-10.html
It's an extremely lightweight app that turns off the Windows 10 updates the "official" way. Works like a charm.


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## 5Lives (Jul 18, 2016)

For dedicated DAW builders, any recommendations? From the ones I've seen, most use pretty ugly / boxy cases.


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## rgames (Jul 18, 2016)

AlexRuger said:


> And blocking Windows 10 is super easy with this app: http://www.pcworld.com/article/3048...solutely-positively-dont-want-windows-10.html
> It's an extremely lightweight app that turns off the Windows 10 updates the "official" way. Works like a charm.


As far as I can tell, that app only blocks the upgrade. I think John is referring to the problem of not being able to disable updates after you've installed Win10.

My experience is the same as John's - you can't disable Windows updates for Windows 10. You can "postpone" them for some period of time until the OS decides it just can't take the suspense any longer.

The "metered connection" hack worked for a while but it was updated away...

rgames


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## colony nofi (Jul 18, 2016)

CACKLAND said:


> Around $4K, excluding additional items here and there. Did a lot of research regarding components needed and sourced them accordingly. There were many components that perhaps I didn't need to splurge on, however the sole purpose of this machine was to compose (and play the odd game)
> 
> The best part about my setup in comparison to the 5K IMac, is
> 1) Completely upgradeable
> ...


Can I ask what case it is you used? I'm on nMP (6core, 128GB ram but thats overkill, and 4TB SSD's attached via tbolt. The dual d500's are severe overkill for me - I use a single 4K + 2K for pics.
I carry this around with me when I travel - but it certainly has its limitations. (I'm going to try windows on it some stage soon) but if I can build a powerful machine in approximately the same footprint / weight as the nMP, I can definitely see myself going down that route!

I'm following this all very closely.


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## jonnybutter (Jul 18, 2016)

AlexRuger said:


> Yeah, Hackintosh is a great route if you aren't relying on the machine for your living, but if you're a pro it's just scary. And upgrading? Forget about it.



Not trying to start a pointless argument - I do understand the impulse to switch! But I was wondering if you are speaking from experience or hearsay. I rely on the computer I built day in and day out and have had very few problems - and nothing difficult when I have. Updating OS has also not been much of a problem - I have always been conservative about that on my music production computers, and still am. Maybe I'm just lucky (and I am a long time -24 years - mac guy, so that probably helps) but I've been stable for 3+ years of hard use. I was very careful about part picking, and I don't leave my work beast online all the time. Other than that..I have no problem relying on it.


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## CACKLAND (Jul 18, 2016)

colony nofi said:


> Can I ask what case it is you used? I'm on nMP (6core, 128GB ram but thats overkill, and 4TB SSD's attached via tbolt. The dual d500's are severe overkill for me - I use a single 4K + 2K for pics.
> I carry this around with me when I travel - but it certainly has its limitations. (I'm going to try windows on it some stage soon) but if I can build a powerful machine in approximately the same footprint / weight as the nMP, I can definitely see myself going down that route!
> 
> I'm following this all very closely.



Parvum Systems (England) - http://www.parvumsystems.com

You can either purchase their pre-built cases or you can completely customise it (For a free of course) - The cases are designed for more high end water cooled systems, which are both designed for aesthetic and performance. The most important factor as to the reason why I decided to go ahead and invest in this company was due to the portability. 

These cases are designed, manufactured and flat-pack for assembly on your end. Therefore, when travelling I simply store all my components in a Pelican Travel Case (Hard Case for protection) and disassemble my case into its pieces. 
Another worthy note, is the company is extremely busy manufacturing cases therefore lead time may vary from 1 month to several months. 

Check out this for all information - http://www.overclock.net/t/1501774/official-parvum-systems-owners-club

Hope that helps.


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## JohnG (Jul 18, 2016)

rgames said:


> As far as I can tell, that app only blocks the upgrade. I think John is referring to the problem of not being able to disable updates after you've installed Win10.



Yes that's my situation: Windows 10 -- sorry I didn't make that clearer before. I had one corrupt OS, one problematic Windows 8 and one other with different issues, so I had to upgrade all three to Windows 10 already.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 18, 2016)

Stop me if I've posted this before, but I'm a whole lot less interested in buying anything Apple makes since Tim Cook hosted a fundraiser for Paul Ryan. 

Having said that, the Apple employees who work for him do a great job of almost everything. It's really only their top-end computers that are long in the tooth.


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## gsilbers (Jul 18, 2016)

5Lives said:


> Any recommended pre-made computers for DAW use? Contemplating building my own, but if the price is right, getting a pre-built one is less hassle.



I did magic micro and other similar services but most of those are targeted towards gaming computer. 
so if you ask around those forums 64 gb of ram is overkill bla bla. 

Visiondaw are great but very overpriced imo. 
At the end i built one myself and i was very nervous about it. but turns out the hardest part is knowing what parts to pick so reverse engeering visiondaw or having experience folks around here spell out the specs makes it easy pieacy. 
well, soo many options to choose parts.. it was harder than i thought the picking components. making sure they fit the case etcx. 

at the end i choose to make a slave pc with windows 7 pro 64 with 128gb of ram. i used an intel 5820k i7. asrock extreme 4 mobo. 4 gb sad drives. i think it was about $2k. i got a very cheap video card and a 5820k is about the same as 5830k less SLI stuff which is for video and some other details. which lowers price. SSD is the 840 and not the newer 850 pro etc. 
the pc turned out nice. i choose a rack mount case and that made it a bit harder. its cool that there are tons of info online on how to put it together.


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## 5Lives (Jul 18, 2016)

Yeah, I'm leaning towards just building my own. I figure the computer I could build using the proceeds from selling my Macbook Pro would be pretty powerful. I've built PCs before so I'm pretty comfortable doing it again.

Thanks all! Looks like not a single person was against switching to PC


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## CACKLAND (Jul 18, 2016)




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## Spip (Jul 19, 2016)

colony nofi said:


> I'm following this all very closely.



Same here ! 

Thanks to everyone for all the useful details.


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## kitekrazy (Jul 20, 2016)

rgames said:


> Regarding tweaks to Windows - I've never found them to be useful from a practical standpoint. *And I've spent a LOT more time than most folks looking for ways to improve performance. There are some that will improve performance on benchmarks, so if your goal is to run benchmarks then tweak away.*
> 
> It used to be true (before Windows XP) that you could squeeze some extra performance from a PC by doing some in-depth tweaking but, in my experience, those days are long gone. But the perception persists. I just replaced my five-year-old slave machine with a new one and again went through all the supposed magical tweaks to improve performance. As I did five years ago, I couldn't find any tweaks that produced a practical benefit (e.g. more voices at a given latency).
> 
> ...



This is worthy of framing. It's so true. I've read when someone built a new system and has problems and it included "I did all the tweaks". As for Windows 10 the two tweaks I did were disable Cortana and make sure Edge is not my default browser. One tweak I no longer do is disable system restore.


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## kitekrazy (Jul 20, 2016)

5Lives said:


> Yeah, I'm leaning towards just building my own. I figure the computer I could build using the proceeds from selling my Macbook Pro would be pretty powerful. I've built PCs before so I'm pretty comfortable doing it again.
> 
> Thanks all! Looks like not a single person was against switching to PC



It's fun. Not so fun if you mess it up. Make sure your vendors have a good return policy.


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## kitekrazy (Jul 20, 2016)

W7 OEM licenses are still available but is a hassle if you change the CPU or board. W10 retail are $199.


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## JohnG (Jul 20, 2016)

kitekrazy said:


> As for Windows 10 the two tweaks I did were disable Cortana and make sure Edge is not my default browser.



there are lots of other ones that really one should do. All those "background" apps, for sure.


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## FriFlo (Jul 20, 2016)

Regarding the header of this topic: a little bit to much of drama IMO 

I have been switching from Windows to Mac (logic), back to Windows in 2013 and recently back to a 2010 Mac Pro. For the last switch I was under the impression there were less problems with it and I kind of missed some of the non music functions, but to be perfectly honest: there are just different problems and there is no such thing as a PC without problems ...
If I wouldn't use slaves anyway, I would definitely choose a Windows PC over a Mac for sample intensive work.


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## jonnybutter (Jul 20, 2016)

FriFlo said:


> Regarding the header of this topic: a little bit to much of drama IMO
> 
> I have been switching from Windows to Mac (logic), back to Windows in 2013 and recently back to a 2010 Mac Pro. For the last switch I was under the impression there were less problems with it and I kind of missed some of the non music functions, but to be perfectly honest: there are just different problems and there is no such thing as a PC without problems ...
> If I wouldn't use slaves anyway, I would definitely choose a Windows PC over a Mac for sample intensive work.




I clicked over to your page: nice writing, Friflo!


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## gsilbers (Jul 20, 2016)

so how is security nowadays with windows? seems the impression is that you can easily get viruses but a friend told me things have chenged and its more secure. (?)


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## AlexRuger (Jul 20, 2016)

gsilbers said:


> so how is security nowadays with windows? seems the impression is that you can easily get viruses but a friend told me things have chenged and its more secure. (?)


Absolutely. Just don't be stupid and let Windows Defender do its thing, and you'll be fine.


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## Spip (Jul 21, 2016)

FriFlo said:


> If I wouldn't use slaves anyway, I would definitely choose a Windows PC over a Mac for sample intensive work.


Not sure to understand this. Why a mac is needed with slaves ? Why not go all PC ?


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## Ashermusic (Jul 21, 2016)

Spip said:


> Not sure to understand this. Why a mac is needed with slaves ? Why not go all PC ?




In my case, because Logic doesn't run on one.


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## OleJoergensen (Jul 21, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> In my case, because Logic doesn't run on one.


I like your hat Jay- you've got stile! 
Im also using Logic and it has even become better the last year with updates but also Skiswitcher/AtrsID- great!


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## Daryl (Jul 21, 2016)

gsilbers said:


> so how is security nowadays with windows? seems the impression is that you can easily get viruses but a friend told me things have chenged and its more secure. (?)


It always was secure. The only people who got viruses were those who frequented dodgy porn sites. As opposed to reputable ones, of course.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 21, 2016)

Daryl, that is simply factually untrue. I know people here in LA who were PC users who definitely were not visiting porn sites who got viruses by opening the wrong email.


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## tack (Jul 21, 2016)

Opening the wrong attachment can be a problem no matter the operating system. Good Internet smarts always required. I've run without any active anti-malware all my life and have never contracted anything (which I know because I periodically do offline scanning). But then again, I _only_ visit reputable porn sites.

For those without that sufficient combination of knowledge and paranoia, I wouldn't suggested an Internet-connected Windows system not have active anti-malware of some sort. Even then there is a risk because of the steady stream of 0-day exploits.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 21, 2016)

True, but it is a numbers game. Because there so many more Windows users than OSX users, more hackers are going to put their time in trying to f*&k up the former than the latter.


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## Mornats (Jul 21, 2016)

Interestingly, the only virus I've had to remove from a system in at least 5 years was from a Mac that had anti-virus installed. (It wasn't mine.) I run mostly on windows but have used a macbook pro for some years too. 

My conclusion is that it's more to do with what the person does on their system rather than the system itself. Vigilance and common sense are key regardless of OS.

Whilst the Linux based core of OSX can make it harder for viruses to infect a Mac, the historic virus free nature of OSX may catch some people out and negate that.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 21, 2016)

Mornats said:


> Interestingly, the only virus I've had to remove from a system in at least 5 years was from a Mac that had anti-virus installed. (It wasn't mine.) I run mostly on windows but have used a macbook pro for some years too.
> 
> My conclusion is that it's more to do with what the person does on their system rather than the system itself. Vigilance and common sense are key regardless of OS.
> 
> Whilst the Linux based core of OSX can make it harder for viruses to infect a Mac, the historic virus free nature of OSX may catch some people out and negate that.



But there are ton of unsophisticated users out there who do not know all the possible ways to be infected, some of them who use music software, and to me it is an inescapable conclusion that if you don't know any better, you are at greater risk on a PC, statistically.


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## tack (Jul 21, 2016)

Mornats said:


> Whilst the Linux based core of OSX


OS X isn't _Linux _based. It has Unix roots, but it's not Linux in any way.

I do wish the audio world embraced Linux more though. I'm a fish out of water in Windows, but it's where I spend most of my time nowadays.


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## Mornats (Jul 21, 2016)

Yeah, you're right, statistically there is a greater risk but due diligence on both should keep you safe. As I said, it's more about the person's use of the computer. Good anti-virus software on both and being distrustful of dodgy sites and emails help but my years of work in usability tell me that a lot of people can't pick out what's dodgy. Those pesky virus people get sneakier all the time. 

I started my music recording hobby on Mac but two things pushed me to switch back to my PC. One was the bang per buck that the Windows system offered and the other was an OSX update that rendered both Garageband (what I started out on) and my audio interface useless. Windows has never failed me in that backward compatibility. 

I know people who only use Macs and still think of PCs as being virus-ridden hellholes (their words!) but this opinion, whilst true for Windows 95-era PCs is outdated for Windows 7, 8 and 10. They're much better and in my personal opinion, at least on par with OSX. 

However, as I mentioned, I work in usability and I always recommend that people go for the system they're most familiar with or more comfortable working on. That way the OS will get in the way less. 

Another interesting anecdote; I worked at a publishing company that had a mix of Macs and Windows PCs and a staff member plugged a supposedly clean Mac into the network and infected it with a Windows virus that was using the Mac as a carrier. I thought I'd point it out as a number of people use Windows slaves connected to their Macs so it's worth keeping slaves up to date with anti-virus even if they're not directly connected to the Internet themselves.


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## Mornats (Jul 21, 2016)

tack said:


> OS X isn't _Linux _based. It has Unix roots, but it's not Linux in any way.



Sorry, I'm typing in my phone and it changed Unix to Linux! But yes, Unix roots is what I was trying to say.


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## AlexRuger (Jul 21, 2016)

tack said:


> I do wish the audio world embraced Linux more though. I'm a fish out of water in Windows, but it's where I spend most of my time nowadays.



I agree. Linux is awesome, but unless major DAWs make their way over there, it isn't going to happen :/


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## tack (Jul 21, 2016)

AlexRuger said:


> I agree. Linux is awesome, but unless major DAWs make their way over there, it isn't going to happen :/


No, and it's a familiar catch-22 for Linux users. DAWs won't bother with a port unless plugin makers (Kontakt!) support it, and plugin makers won't bother if there are no major DAWs on Linux. And even if both of them did it, the userbase would take sufficiently long to grow that they wouldn't see a quick enough return on that investment. Frustrating.


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## 5Lives (Jul 21, 2016)

I can build a pretty killer cube machine for ~$1500. As good or better specs than the latest 2015 iMac at less than half the cost (granted the iMac comes with a screen but you could add a bigger 4K screen and still come in at well over $1000 cheaper).


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## FriFlo (Jul 21, 2016)

jonnybutter said:


> I clicked over to your page: nice writing, Friflo!


Thanks for the nice words! Following me and liking some tracks would make me even happier!


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## FriFlo (Jul 21, 2016)

Spip said:


> Not sure to understand this. Why a mac is needed with slaves ? Why not go all PC ?


It ain't necessary, unless you depend on Logic! It is rather a matter of preference, as I already tried to suggest with my first reply!  All I can say is, there ARE some things to like about Mac OS. But it is not that you couldn't work without it at all! That is the same amount of BS as claiming Mac OS is all bad.


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## 5Lives (Jul 21, 2016)

FriFlo said:


> All I can say is, there ARE some things to like about Mac OS.



When it comes to making music, what are some of these?


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## Spip (Jul 22, 2016)

FriFlo said:


> It ain't necessary, unless you depend on Logic!


Ok. I thought it was about something directly related to the communication between computers or something like that...
About leaving Mac, for me, there are still some dealbreakers : Logic (I'm using it less and less though), Metric Halo interface (a PC driver is announced since ages. Just waiting for it) and I've noticed that each time an update is done, there seems to have a lot of PC users unsatisfied with the bugs or some missing features when the Mac version has almost no problem. (for example, Max, Pro Tools, and some plugins developers)


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## FriFlo (Jul 22, 2016)

Spip said:


> Ok. I thought it was about something directly related to the communication between computers or something like that...
> About leaving Mac, for me, there are still some dealbreakers : Logic (I'm using it less and less though), Metric Halo interface (a PC driver is announced since ages. Just waiting for it) and I've noticed that each time an update is done, there seems to have a lot of PC users unsatisfied with the bugs or some missing features when the Mac version has almost no problem. (for example, Max, Pro Tools, and some plugins developers)


The metric halo interface is unfortunate of course, but it is a very rare exception. The other way around it can become much more problematic, since Apple is not offering a PC with native PCI interface. As for issues after updates and generally: I honestly think, that is a big illusion and a matter of good and bad luck with your choices. On the Mac Pro Messages doesn't work and I have currently big issues with network (the lemur app quits when trying to connect). I have contacted support about it and despite several long sessions with probe software with a head of support from Apple, I did not get a final answer on what is wrong since about three months ...
On the PC, I had several other problems stealing my time, which couldn't be solved, either. So, to me this seems pretty much like a tie between Apple and Windows!


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