# Demo reels



## Mike Greene (Jul 18, 2007)

I got a call today from a producer I know for a new TV show starting production. They're getting ready to look at composers and he asked me to bring a demo reel by. Believe me, this is rare that _they_ ask _me_ to bring a demo reel, so I whipped up a CD and resume, put on a clean shirt (one with buttons and everything!) and zipped on down to the studio lot where their offices are.

I can't say which studio . . . although if they use Macs, I'm sure all their software is _Universal_ Binary. Anyway, the way these studio lots work is that, especially since 9/11, you have to get a "drive-on" pass and check in at the gate and all this other PIA security stuff.

That all goes fine and I start walking, envelope in hand, towards the building where my future employer (thinking positive!) is. These walks are a bit stressful because I'm mentally preparing myself for whatever situation I'll find myself in when I get to the offices. You know the drill: try to be charming and witty, but don't say anything inappropriate (I know it's hard to believe, but that can be a problem for me!) Not to mention, I don't actually have a _meeting_ scheduled (I'm just dropping off a reel,) so I might not even get past the guy's assistant. So I might have put on a clean shirt for nothing! Although if it turns out she's a _hot_ assistant . . . Which reminds me: Note to self: Don't hit on hot assistant. At least not til _after_ I get the gig.

So I think I've got every scenario figured out, but then some security guy stops me and says, "Sir, you can't carry that envelope without first having it checked in the security office. They'll give you a green "Cleared" sticker and then you can carry it." I've had this happen many times before and I still haven't learned to just hide the envelopes under my shirt, so I trudge back to the security office where they conclude the resume and CD look harmless.

The security lady notices the show name and office number I had written on the envelope and says, "Oh, a messenger just brought this other package headed for the same place!" Messengers aren't allowed to go past the security points. That's why I always deliver things myself when possible. Plus it's an extra opportunity for face time with the potential client. And potentially hot assistant.

Anyway, I recognize the name on that envelope as a competing composer! Not huge, but a name many of us would know!

The security lady is pleased when I take the hint and offer to save her a trip and bring that envelope with me as well. So I head on my way, two envelopes (with green stickers) in hand.

Now, obviously I'm gonna toss the other guy's reel in the nearest trash can, but first, my curiosity get's the best of me and I just have to see what a big name's reel looks like . . . so I open the envelope (should I really be posting this on a public forum?)

Here's what I saw (finally, the point of this long post!): first off, no resume or cover letter. I guess that makes sense since he's a known guy, but here's what surprised me: the CD had no cover, no contact info, no phone number, no nothin' except for the composer's name and list of songs printed on the CD itself! Typed at least, so it didn't break _every_ rule we've all been taught about demo reels, but still, not what I expected.

It kind of makes me wonder as I sweat every detail of my presentations just how much of it really matters.


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## John DeBorde (Jul 18, 2007)

Damn you Mike! Tossing my reel like that.

Now where's that crayon. I have some more reels to send out!

8-P


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## synthetic (Jul 18, 2007)

Dude, you're killing me. 

It's gotta be worth something, right? Add to the memorableness of the package. "Put in the purple CD again..."


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## sevaels (Jul 18, 2007)

Just *how * Big? :mrgreen:


Good luck on the job! :D


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## José Herring (Jul 18, 2007)

Hahahahahahaha!!!!!! ROTFL!!!!!hahahahaha!!!!

That's too funny.

Jose


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jul 18, 2007)

So this all started with someone you already know that's a producer? Another example of good networking.


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## Thonex (Jul 18, 2007)

Hey Mike,

Love the story and your commentary!! :D 

You know... I wonder the same thing. I have a template that my wife (graphic artist) designed for me and I print it out on high quality color paper with the track list and then have a proper CD label and everything. Whereas some of the big names I worked with just send stuff written in Sharpie on the CD and that's it.

I think there is this "I'm too big and busy to give you a 'proper' package...." attitude... and then my stuff may come off as looking too eager to impress.

Who the f#@k knows??!!!..... And the big guys don't have business cards or stationary or a website or anything.... but their agents do 8) 

It's a mystery.

T


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## midphase (Jul 18, 2007)

Nick,

Dude...you HAVE to hire Mike as a regular columnist for VI Magazine. He could be the Larry The O type of column and I think it would be hilarious and add some much needed laugher!


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## José Herring (Jul 18, 2007)

Yeah I think it's all about the personal contact. I use to jump through all these marketing hoops and they work on a certain level. Seeing how I'm desperately trying to get out of that level I started to take a different approach. 

So one day I get up and look at the trades and find the listing for some ridiculously big budgeted project. I call the production company an of course they shuffle me off to the studio music vp's. No biggy. So I called and out of some miracle the music VP answers his own phone. So feeling all gutsy I introduce myself and say that I want to volunteer my illustrious music services for said $100,000,000 feature. Ok, after the laughter the big music VP at the major studio offers to listen to my CD. I haven't really sent a CD in a few years so I have to dig up all my promo stuff and get the CD and make it. I go to make my label and the printer is out of color ink. So I'm like fuck it. I'll send the crap in black and white with my name and number, not thinking that I'm really going to get anywhere, I didn't care. So big music VP then actually calls me back in a few days! I'm like wow. After the usual, "you're very good, but there's no way in hell you're going to get a $100,000,000 feature at this stage" big music VP then recommends me to the lower budget VP. So I'm like ok, I'm in. I follow up with secondary music VP and can't get past the assistant. So of course the assistant doesn't give a shit about me, but feeling mighty bold by now I send another crappy labeled CD. The assistant then leaves town for 3 weeks. I call every week. Then by some miracle the 3rd time I call secondary music VP actually picks up the phone. I identify myself and secondary music VP says that she has my CD in her hand and has just finished listening to it. Secondary music VP then agrees to meet with me in a few weeks to discuss some projects being done by the indie arm of the major studio.

It took about 2 months and about 10 calls to finally even get into a friggin' meeting with just even the slightest glimmer of hope that I might get something for it. I'm starting to see why all these big names don't really give a damn about websites and shit. It's all about the inside hustle.

Jose


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jul 19, 2007)

> So one day I get up and look at the trades and find the listing for some ridiculously big budgeted project.



Where excactly do you get this information?


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## synthetic (Jul 19, 2007)

Hollywood Reporter, look in the back for films in production.


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## synthetic (Jul 19, 2007)

Oh, and great story Jose.


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## José Herring (Jul 19, 2007)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Thu Jul 19 said:


> > So one day I get up and look at the trades and find the listing for some ridiculously big budgeted project.
> 
> 
> 
> Where excactly do you get this information?



There's a couple of mags and a few internet sites. I primarily use the Hollywood Reporter and imdb.com Pro website.

Jose


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## John DeBorde (Jul 19, 2007)

synthetic @ Wed Jul 18 said:


> Dude, you're killing me.
> 
> It's gotta be worth something, right? Add to the memorableness of the package. "Put in the purple CD again..."



Purple?!? Nothing but the pink crayon for me! Works every time...


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## Mike Greene (Jul 25, 2007)

Update: I didn't get the gig. And they didn't hire the medium name either (OK, I didn't really toss his reel!) They actually wound up a hiring a really _big_ name.

This kind of hurts for two reasons. First, the real story (my first post is pretty much an edited for TV - keep things short and simple - story) is that I'd been working to get this show for a couple months. It's a cable drama, so I figured I might actually have a shot and I went all out, writing new cues, hiring players, the whole nine yards. All out of pocket.

And it worked . . . up to a point, at least. I was one of only a few composers to get a sit down meeting (which went great) and some of the pilot was even temped with my music. So I really got my hopes up for this one.

The second reason is that the guy who they got is REALLY big in TV music and I know he's going to have assistants do most of the real scoring. Not that I have an ethical problem with that, it's just that they were wowed by the big name and will wind up with something less than what I would have done.

This is not a high level show. It's not even high on the cable hype radar. The EP didn't even expect to get a yes from the big name, but he "swung for the fences" (as he put it) and got him.

I guess what bothers me is that this show will mean practically nothing to this other composer, but it would have been huge for me.

Some days I hate being a composer.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 25, 2007)

I hear ya Mike! I went for Dennis the Menace 3 last year (clearly not a big film, straight to video, very, very low budget). I didn't get it (which turned out to be a blessing, since the composition budget had the same number as the first number in the name of a semi-famous pop group that ends with the word Maniacs) even though I had a great meeting, but while waiting to meet the producers, a courier came in delivering a demo from the biggest composer in town. What does he need this kind of gig for, I thought? Then it hit me: he's not really going to compose much of the cues - he'll farm that out to his minions, and still get the credit. :roll: *

Keep plugging, man, there's always breaks if you keep knockin'! And hey, who knows, it might turn out to be a nightmare in terms of working conditions/relations... :wink:

* I heard that he didn't get the gig either. They went with someone from out of town.


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## ComposerDude (Jul 25, 2007)

Mike, sorry to hear that... òà1   ]¯à1   ]°à1   ]±à1   ]²à1   ]³à1   ]´à2   ]µà2   ]¶à2   ]·à2   ]¸à2


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 26, 2007)

:lol: :lol:


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## Ashermusic (Jul 26, 2007)

Mike Greene @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> Update: I didn't get the gig. And they didn't hire the medium name either (OK, I didn't really toss his reel!) They actually wound up a hiring a really _big_ name.
> 
> This kind of hurts for two reasons. First, the real story (my first post is pretty much an edited for TV - keep things short and simple - story) is that I'd been working to get this show for a couple months. It's a cable drama, so I figured I might actually have a shot and I went all out, writing new cues, hiring players, the whole nine yards. All out of pocket.
> 
> ...



Welcome to my life


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 26, 2007)

Sorry you did not get the gig Mike...but such is the life of a composer like you mentioned at the end. At least you lost out to a "name" and not to a nobody.  

This story further exemplifies to me that the goal for every composer needs to be to create relationships where the people doing the hiring feel that they HAVE to use you. It is a business of relationships and when a director (for a feature film) or a producer or EP at a network for a TV show has a relationship with you and a trust in you that they feel they HAVE to work with you...then you will get the job more often than not. It is not just that they know you...but that they trust you enough that they HAVE to have you and your music on their project. In this case...they wanted a name and had to HAVE it. When the name said "yes"...(because you never say "no" right?)...they of course went with the name. 

We are all building our name. Everyone's path to doing that is different and different composers have different reputations attached to their name. Some are good at themes...some are "production friendly"...some are very quick at what they do, etc...And, everyone gets hired on their name, reputation and past success. 

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## Mike Greene (Jul 26, 2007)

Ned, Andrew, Jay . . . wait a minute . . . you mean I'm not the only one to not get a gig I really wanted? Wha . . . ?!?!?!?!? :mrgreen: 

Brian, I hear you, dude! The problem is you have to hope the people you manage to make good relationships with go on to have real success. It's scary how many directors and producers I used to work for are now selling real estate. The saddest was one guy who called me up trying to sell me vitamins!

I do have a disagreement with this, though:



Brian Ralston @ Thu Jul 26 said:


> ...it is my believe that the assistant job is not really a path to being a composer yourself.



There are some guys who did make it this way. As you may know (since you were sitting next to me at the ASCAP meeting when I heard this :mrgreen: ) in TV, Danny Lux, who is now a pretty big name, was an assistant for Mike Post (a huge name.) And there are a whole bunch of film composers who got their start as assistants, not just at Media Ventures, either. I'm not saying that's the way to go, but unless you've got some sort of family or friends hookup, I wouldn't rule it out if I was new in town.


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## synthetic (Jul 26, 2007)

Sorry about the gig, Mike. 

On the sub-topic, I've actually been considering the composer's assistant route. It seems like a good way to learn the mechanics of scoring, meet some of the people in the industry (orchestators, copyists, producers, etc.) and actually work on music every day. As far as not getting any credit, I think there's an unspoken understanding now that you can put a credit on your reel and people can ask for more information on what you did for that project. And some composers, Zimmer being the most successful example, try to help their assistants get gigs.


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## mathis (Jul 26, 2007)

Mike Greene @ Thu Jul 26 said:


> The saddest was one guy who called me up trying to sell me vitamins!



Man, that's really sad.


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 26, 2007)

Mike Greene @ Thu Jul 26 said:


> I do have a disagreement with this, though:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you know how many people were an assistant for Mike Post over the years and do not have a career as a full flegged working composer? Quite a lot. And while I do not know the ins and outs of Lux's story...I am sure there was a point where he had to stop being an assistant in order for him to separate himself and his reputation from being "Mike Post's assistant" to being "composer Danny Lux". That is the point I am making. All of the connections made while being the assistant are not his connections. They are Mike Post's connections. They are his employer's contacts and relationships. Sooner or later you have to break off and establish your own relationships and reputation and you can not do that successfully in my opinion when you are stuck assisting under the reputation of another composer. 

While there are stories of individuals who come from media ventures or other assistant positions...the number of people who get into those positions and end up being painted as "Oh, you're an assistant type guy...I need a composer" are great. I know quite a few right now who are ghost writing reality TV and can not break out of it. In the mean time...they don't have enough time outside of ghosting and assisting to build their own director/producer relationships with up and coming filmmakers and as a result are finding themselves stuck in reality TV land writing music where some other person gets the on screen credit, and yet they really want to be scoring feature films. 

There is nothing wrong with reality TV and that is not what I am saying. My point is they are stuck in a place where they do not want to be and where they can not get out of because the only thing they have on their credit list is a bunch of reality TV shows where their name is NOT even the one on screen and one would have to take their word for it becuse there is no record from the production company that they ever worked on the project. As a result, the answers they are getting from movie producers and directors are "oh...your a reality tv guy...I need a film guy." I have heard this sad tale more than once from other composers. 

No one is going to become an assistant to Chris Young or Mike Post and in a couple years after being there, he will NOT say "you know...I don't really want this indie film...why don't you use my assistant so and so." That happens so infrequently you might as well buy a lottery ticket. That is true in the situation you describe above too Mike. The "name" did not pass the gig along to someone else. He said "yes"...will slap his name on it and collect the check even though his people will do a lot of the work. 

Is the assistant job something to avoid? No not for everyone. There is a lot to learn from that position. You immerse yourself in the environment and you get to hang with the crowd so to speak. But...you are not building your name as a composer while doing it. You are an assistant. And as long as people go into the position with realistic expectations of what they are really getting out of it...I say go for it and have fun. But, as far as it being a path to *branding* one's name in this town as a successful composer...it is not the way in my opinion. And that way takes many years and a diverse number of successful business relationships with up and coming directors to achieve...not to mention your name *ON SCREEN* as *THE* composer for more than one *SUCCESSFUL* film. 

o-[][]-o


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## Mike Greene (Jul 26, 2007)

Danny Lux got scoring credit for some of the episodes of Mike Post's shows in the 90's. NYPD Blue, L.A. Law and the like. Mike Post didn't have to do that, but he did because (I assume) he took a liking to Danny and thought it would help him out, which it did.

Plus, even if the composer isn't benevolent, an assistant often meets with producers or directors, who often know what's really going on.

Heck, even in my own low-budget operation, when I scored Playboy's Girls of the Internet, the director figured out that my assistant was the one doing most of the real work and hired _him_ for their next masterpiece, Playboy's Rising Stars.

And just today, a guy told me about a guy who got the gig for a big TV series because Hans recommended him. I think a lot of composers are pretty cool about that, although I think an assistant has to prove he's got talent above the rest of the pack.

I'm not saying an assistant position is a ticket to success. Even if I were 20 again, I don't think I'd do it. But still, unless you've (I'm using the word "you" figuratively, not specifically) got family in the business, no other path you take is going to have very good odds, either. You can do low and no budget films for up and coming directors, but there are thousands of "promising" directors yet most wind up selling real estate. Or vitamins.

Or you could try for a fast track to the top and start dating, with the hopes of marrying, a successful director like, say, Penny Marshall.

Hmmm . . . Hans' ghostwriting slave . . . or Penny's sex slave . . . I can't say that I find either to be that appealing. But sometimes a guy's gotta do what a guy's gotta do! :mrgreen:


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## synthetic (Jul 26, 2007)

I spoke to my friend at Remote Control today. I'm toying with the idea of becoming a tech there. So I'm watching this debate with interest. 

The thing that stops me cold from just putting out a shingle and freelancing it:

http://www.gsamusic.com/composers.html

Click on any of those names and you get a list of credits 5-pages long. I imagine that fax in the producer's left hand, and my demo CD in the producer's right hand. And think to mysefl that I need to gain some name credits, no matter how many asterisks are attached. That is one scary website -- you're going to get very depressed if you click that link. 

Let's have a look at the weekend box office: 
1. I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry, music by Rupert Gregson-Williams, Zimmer assistant. 
2. Harry Potter & The Order of the Phoenix, music by Nick Hooper, no idea what his story is. 
3. Hairspray, Marc Shaiman, not an assistant. 
4. Transformers, Steve Jablonsky, Zimmer Assistant
5. Ratatoullie, Michael Giachinno, not an assistant as far as I know

There's a long tradition of appreniceships not just in Hollywood, but in any trade. And there should be - the best stuff isn't learned in books or figured out on your own, but handed down. I think Hans has been very frank about his assistants, and given them the spotlight and career breaks whenever he could.


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 26, 2007)

All good points...and we sure derailed Mike's thread pretty good didn't we. :D

But, to the points synthetic brought up...



> . I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry, music by Rupert Gregson-Williams, Zimmer assistant.
> 2. Harry Potter & The Order of the Phoenix, music by Nick Hooper, no idea what his story is.
> 3. Hairspray, Marc Shaiman, not an assistant.
> 4. Transformers, Steve Jablonsky, Zimmer Assistant
> 5. Ratatoullie, Michael Giachinno, not an assistant as far as I know



Rupert is also Harry's brother...who is represented by GSA. That...umm....makes a big difference. Kind of like how the Newman siblings have very little credits on their own and are in a very similar place as most people here, but are also signed by GSA. Steve Jablonsky...former zimmer assistant yes...but do you know for how long?

Most of the zimmer/media ventures guys have worked for Zimmer for 6-10 years or more before they started to get thrown recommendations. I know more than one guy who was an assistant for zimmer for more than a year and the first half of that first year was a whole lot of picking up the studio...getting the dry cleaning, walking the dog, washing the car, etc...They don't start giving you the keys to the "music car" until you have been there a pretty good amount of time and they work you in gradually from doing midi grunt work to mock-ups, to finally taking over small scenes, etc...

By years 5-7 you may be ghost writing and that is a big maybe. And there is a whole line of guys there ahead of you who will get any recommendation after their 10 year mark over you. Then even after that amount of time there...you still have to start building your own reputation as a composer that is capable on their own and not just under the wing and guarantee of Zimmer. And that will still take 5 years at least. So...do the assistant route there and it will probably be a good 13-15 or more years before you "might" have a career from going the assistant route. 

In Chris Young's studio your first month or so will be mostly spent re-arranging the thousands of decorative pumpkins decorating the studio walls. Then you get worked into cleaning...then maybe audio transcription...then you will pair up and shadow a current assistant then maybe start doing music related tasks months later. 

Ed Shurmer has a policy that you have to work for him for 7 years before he will start to "maybe" throw you some other gigs he does not want. It is a rule Michael Kamen had with him and he has just continued it with his staff. 

And my point is...if you had just started building your name as a composer on your own and trying to get in with the directors of tomorrow (USC, UCLA, NYU, go to independent filmmaker groups, festivals, etc...) and begin to do the hustle now...you will be a lot further along with a solid reputation as a composer in 7 or 15 years from now than if you had gone the assistant route and thus that 7 or 15 years would be much better spent building your name as a composer. Thus, you will have a much bigger career for yourself at that point. 

I would be willing to bet money on this assertion. Say...$100. :mrgreen: =o 

Oh...and don't be intimidated by that GSA list synthetic...just be inspired and motivated by it. And know that regardless of just going for it now...or doing the assistant thing...that list is your "composer" competition no matter how you slice it. 

I always tell this to people who ask me. If you want to score film...find a way to score film. If you want to score TV...find a way to score TV. If you want to be an assistant/tech guy...find a way to do that. But don't think that one will lead to the other with any degree of certainty. You have to pay your tithings to the film gods if you want to do film. If you want to do TV...those are a whole different set of gods which give no credit from the film gods. And the tech/assistant gods...they are different too. None of them really get along and they all don't transfer credits.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 27, 2007)

Great topic and posts, guys! 


I'm depressed now: GSA



No, actually, I'm not: Playboy's Girls of the Internet???? There's hope yet! 8)


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## Mahlon (Jul 27, 2007)

Brian Ralston @ Thu Jul 26 said:


> All good points...and we sure derailed Mike's thread pretty good didn't we. :D
> 
> 
> 
> I always tell this to people who ask me. If you want to score film...find a way to score film. If you want to score TV...find a way to score TV. If you want to be an assistant/tech guy...find a way to do that. But don't think that one will lead to the other with any degree of certainty.



Interestingly, Bruce Broughton was nice enough to advice me almost word for word what you've said, when I was thinking of moving out to L.A. a few years ago. I expect that that is very good advice.

Mahlon


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 27, 2007)

RE: working for another composer

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that, though it sucks not having your name on the official credits and the contacts that come with that, there is a LOT to be said, IMO, for getting $$$ for doing what you love best! Getting paid well for composing is the best way I can think of for paying the bills, food, software, etc! It's extremely important to compose full-time if you want to keep getting better


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## synthetic (Jul 27, 2007)

Ned, that's what I'm thinking: getting paid to write music. I was considering that I could go back to USC and take the scoring program, or go to work somewhere actually writing music for feature films and having assistant producers spill their coffee on me. Option #2 sounds like a better education to me. 

Brian, I'm not sure that all of your information is accurate. I've been to all of the composers' studios that you mentioned, and I didn't see many cleaning people. Everyone was busy writing or teching. Cream rises to the top -- if you're good, people will notice. 

I have a few leads on independent features, and my thought is somehow being able to do both. (You know, in my spare time after the 110-hour work week.) I'm certainly not ready to quit my day job to compose full time, I don't even have kids and having no income scares the crap out of me. I already tried that 10 years ago when I started a post production studio, got ripped off by my partner, made $2,000 a month, etc. 

I'm still just talking to people, I haven't jumped yet...

Sorry about your topic, Mike.  Maybe someone can split the topic somewhere, or we can just embrace the non-linear conversation.


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 27, 2007)

synthetic @ Fri Jul 27 said:


> Brian, I'm not sure that all of your information is accurate. I've been to all of the composers' studios that you mentioned, and I didn't see many cleaning people. Everyone was busy writing or teching. Cream rises to the top -- if you're good, people will notice.



No big name composer is going to throw any new assistant into the mix right away. They all pretty much make you prove yourself to them. Prove your ability to show up on time...get tasks done no matter how mundane (like the re-arranging of Chris Young's pumpkins or picking up the studio), etc...Once you earn their trust that you are the kind of individual who are on board with doing whatever is assigned with a smile (no matter how boring or frustrating the job is)...then they will start putting you into the real world music situations. I have seen it with quite a few of my former USC colleagues. Some get to the music part faster than others, but the timing of that is out of their hands. Am I generalizing? Yes. Is every composer assistant situation like this? No. But for the most part...this is more correct than not. 



synthetic @ Fri Jul 27 said:


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## synthetic (Jul 27, 2007)

Going back to Mike's topic for a second, a film or TV show is a huge investment which is likely to fail. The producer's job is to recoup their money for the investors, so they do anything they can to minimize the risk of failure. That means building a team of people who are proven performers. Just like no one ever got fired for buying IBM, no one ever got fired for hiring Mike Post or whoever. So I guess I'd rather have an additional music credit on a big movie than a music by on an independent movie that won't even see Blockbuster. Especially if the goal is to feed my family.


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 27, 2007)

synthetic @ Fri Jul 27 said:


> I have a few relationships with independent filmmakers, but I'm not ready to bet my livelyhood on them yet.


 I would not bet your livelyhood on them either...but your future as a film composer does rest in those relationships. One thing Basil Poledouris once told me (which is probably the best advice I have ever been given by someone) is that you can not break into the business of today. You have to break into the business of tomorrow. All of today's working directors and producers already have established relationships with people they trust. There is little to no way to break into that. You have to find the directors of tomorrow's hollywood and team up with them when they are just starting out. When they make it, they will usually go back to the people they worked with and the ones they trust from their beginnings. And then when they make it, they will bring you along.




synthetic @ Fri Jul 27 said:


> What you see as hazing is probably just giving them something to do while they hang at the studio, soak everything in, and learn how to act.



I do not see it as hazing at all. I see it as allowing someone to prove their dependability and to earn the employer's trust. There is a huge difference. I would probably do the same thing for my assistant at first. I'll find out on the next film I am sure. 



synthetic @ Fri Jul 27 said:


> Going back to Mike's topic for a second, a film or TV show is a huge investment which is likely to fail. The producer's job is to recoup their money for the investors, so they do anything they can to minimize the risk of failure. That means building a team of people who are proven performers. Just like no one ever got fired for buying IBM, no one ever got fired for hiring Mike Post or whoever.



I agree with all of this.




synthetic @ Fri Jul 27 said:


> So I guess I'd rather have an additional music credit on a big movie than a music by on an independent movie that won't even see Blockbuster. Especially if the goal is to feed my family.



I do not agree with this. Bob Degus has taught me this. The only thing "additional music by" proves is that you were a composer's assistant. And it shows that you were not given the responsibility to be a department head on a multi-million dollar film. 

As the composer on the independent film (many of which are still multi-million dollar films)...you are the music department head. You are the one responsible. It is your reputation on the line. On a big studio film where you may or may not get an additional music by credit buried in the end crawl...you are just one of the music team assisting the main composer. All that proves to a hollywood producer or director is that you can be an assistant and further shows that you were not a department head on the film. You need that department head experience on your resume to get bigger and better department head jobs...which a film composer is in the eyes of a film producer. A long list of "additional music...asistant/tech/programmer" is not department head experience. It will pay your bills. It is nothing to shake a stick at...but it is what it is. 

 

But...it is ok for us to agree to disagree of course.  It is all a matter of opinion anyway.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 27, 2007)

Brian Ralston @ 27/7/2007 said:


> One thing Basil Poledouris once told me (which is probably the best advice I have ever been given by someone) is that you can not break into the business of today. You have to break into the business of tomorrow. All of today's working directors and producers already have established relationships with people they trust. There is little to no way to break into that. You have to find the directors of tomorrow's hollywood and team up with them when they are just starting out. When they make it, they will usually go back to the people they worked with and the ones they trust from their beginnings. And then when they make it, they will bring you along.



Funny, I was told the exact same thing a few yrs ago by a very-well known Canadian composer, now retired (Richard Grégoire). Great advice! 8)


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## Mike Greene (Jul 27, 2007)

synthetic @ Fri Jul 27 said:


> Sorry about your topic, Mike.


My beautiful topic . . . RUINED!!!!! :mrgreen: 



synthetic @ Fri Jul 27 said:


> Brian, I'm not sure that all of your information is accurate. I've been to all of the composers' studios that you mentioned, and I didn't see many cleaning people. Everyone was busy writing or teching. Cream rises to the top -- if you're good, people will notice.


This goes to the heart of the matter for me. First, although I think Brian is overly gloomy with regards to assisting, and overly confident with the plug away making connections path, I still agree with him that in general you're better off trying to be on your own. I mean, Brian's a moron, but he does get _some_ things right. :mrgreen: 

However, I still think assisiting is worth considering, but only if you believe you truly are the cream. I think the main thing to consider if you take an assisting gig is that Hans isn't going to give you the nod for some gig in a few years unless you're the _best_ of the bunch.

Which is a double edged sword. If you're truly the best, assisting can be a pretty good path because your talent can't help but be recognized and many big name composers do indeed give their assistants shots after a few years. Your odds of getting tapped will be relatively high.

But . . . the other edge of the sword is that if you're only _second_ best amongst a whole staff of mostly very talented and ambitious other assistants, you'll _never_ get the big gig from within.

But of course, when you _leave_ the assisting gig, you'll still have some pretty cool credits with a little careful wording. (Much like Bob Degus carefully words his "Pleasantville" credit. He was "a" producer, but not "the" producer. That would be Gary Ross who wrote, produced and directed. I don't mean that as a a jab at Bob, but it's similar to our situation where if we walk into a room and say we composed Spiderman 3, eyebrows will be raised, even if we legitimately got an additional music credit.)

Here's a story that really sticks with me: I lost out on a gig once to a guy who's legitimate credits were about the same level as mine. But the producers told me they went with him because he had "A-list credits." I had never heard of the guy, so this surprised me and I went to his website to see just what his credits were. Turns out he assisted for a big name guy and listed those films. He was honest and wrote "Programmer" in small print, but the film titles and pictures were right there. Then he got a couple songs placed in some other films. Again, he did it honestly, but someone who doesn't really know composers could (and DID!) get the idea that this guy was a big shot.


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 27, 2007)

Mike Greene @ Fri Jul 27 said:


> (Much like Bob Degus carefully words his "Pleasantville" credit. He was "a" producer, but not "the" producer. That would be Gary Ross who wrote, produced and directed. I don't mean that as a a jab at Bob, but it's similar to our situation where if we walk into a room and say we composed Spiderman 3, eyebrows will be raised, even if we legitimately got an additional music credit.)



I know you are not raggin on Bob.  But it really isn't similar if you know the producer heirarchy. Especially at Larger Than Life (gary's company). Gary hired Bob to produce the movie for him. Bob was Gary's right hand man and producer for many years. Gary was/is the ideas person (who of course is going to give himself a producer credit and create the story, etc...). 

Bob is the one hired to make it happen, solve problems and see it get done on time and on budget. There is a difference between the "creative producer" and the producer. It was Bob who decided to create the 3rd largest visual FX studio in the world to do the color stuff on Pleasantville which had never been done before and then sell it off piece by piece after the movie was over. His years as a production executive at New Line during the Austin Powers days gave him a good experience on budgets and how to get things done on budget. Bob is also an active voting member of the academy and on the executive board for his branch. Pretty much every producer in hollywood knows Bob and respects him greatly. 

There are a lot of producers who run the show but don't get the spotlight and usually don't want it. Ever heard of Bonnie Curtis? No? I bet you have seen her work though. She produced Spielberg's films Saving Private Ryan, Artificial Intelligence and Minority Report. 

But that is getting off point. Sorry. o-[][]-o


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## Mike Greene (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, we need to get back to the point. Where's all the sympathy for me not getting this gig?!?!?!? :mrgreen: 

Well, since no one seems to care about _me_, I'll go back to this _other_ topic . . . 

I think it actually _is_ similar in that Bob was Gary's assistant for years. Much better credentials than a gopher at Remote Control, but the concept is the same. He did great work and Gary rewarded him with a producing gig.


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 27, 2007)

Mike Greene @ Fri Jul 27 said:


> Yes, we need to get back to the point. Where's all the sympathy for me not getting this gig?!?!?!? :mrgreen:
> 
> Well, since no one seems to care about _me_, I'll go back to this _other_ topic . . .
> 
> I think it actually _is_ similar in that Bob was Gary's assistant for years. Much better credentials than a gopher at Remote Control, but the concept is the same. He did great work and Gary rewarded him with a producing gig.



Actually Bob was not Gary's assistant at all. Bob was Gary's producer. There is a HUGE difference. 

Gary had his own assistants. Bob had his own assistants. Bob was NOT Gary's assistant. Bob was his producer and a former New Line executive, and he started Chanticleer Films back in the day. He was the one Gary hired to produce his films and get things done. It is why Bob is in the Academy and on the executive board as a producer. You don't get accepted into the academy as a producer for being an assistant to anyone...you get there by being a well respected producer with a significant body of work that is well known and respected. 

But you are right...back to the topic on hand. It sucks you did not get the gig. They will be sorry for it. :mrgreen: 

o-[][]-o 

ok...I have decided I am not going to discuss the other topic any more. It is starting to get into an area that could be misinterpreted by the casual reader. So...just know that I stand by everything I have said in this thread. Everything I said is simply my heartfelt opinion on the "other topic" in this thread. And, I said it all with the good intention of sharing information which others may find useful and valuable. That is all. As I have said, everyone's path is different. I don't want to be taken as demeaning or maligning anyone else's path. And I certainly did not bring up Bob for any other reason than to honestly detail an example of why I have some of my opinions and not that I am just sitting here and making stuff up because I have so much free time on my hands. Which I don't.  

So...I wish everyone well as they pursue their dreams and goals. As my email signature says, "Success is a journey, not a destination." Enjoy the journey folks. Keep writing...like Ned says.


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## synthetic (Jul 28, 2007)

Brian, thanks for your insight on this topic. I didn't take your posts to be anything but helpful advice. o-[][]-o


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 28, 2007)

My deep philosophy: there's a reason you almost got this gig, and for the same reason another one will come along that you will get.


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## John DeBorde (Jul 28, 2007)

yeah, thanks for chiming in with your opinion Brian. Always good to hear an informed one, tho I tend to lean towards Mike's way of thinking.

And I agree 100% with Nick. Sometimes it's hard to see until after the fact, but there's often a nice serendipitous exchange of one thing for another (did that make any sense?). Anyway, it's easy to sit back and be an armchair philosopher, but I hope this works out for the best in the long run for you Mike!

-john


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## sbkp (Jul 28, 2007)

John DeBorde @ Sat Jul 28 said:


> good to hear an informed [opinion], tho I tend to lean towards Mike's way of thinking



That's an interesting distinction between "an informed opinion" and "Mike's way of thinking." :mrgreen:


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## John DeBorde (Jul 28, 2007)

sbkp @ Sat Jul 28 said:


> John DeBorde @ Sat Jul 28 said:
> 
> 
> > good to hear an informed [opinion], tho I tend to lean towards Mike's way of thinking
> ...



or a literary device to avoid redundant word choice in my sentence structure. 

-john


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## Mike Greene (Jul 30, 2007)

sbkp @ Sat Jul 28 said:


> John DeBorde @ Sat Jul 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for chiming in with your opinion Brian. Always good to hear an informed one, tho I tend to lean towards Mike's way of thinking.
> ...


Nah, it's just that John left out a period after the word "tho." It should have read:

"Thanks for chiming in with your opinion Brian. Always good to hear an informed one, tho. (So) I tend to lean towards Mike's way of thinking."

See how that makes more sense? :mrgreen: 

By the way, I don't think this needs saying, but in case anyone got the wrong idea, I was just kidding about the topic getting diverted. o-[][]-o


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