# Kontakt 3.5... so very close .. so very far



## dxmachina (May 6, 2009)

I've just finished up a bunch of performance tests involving:

Nehalem Mac Pros
Logic 8.02
DP 6.02
Bidule .9686
Kontakt 3.5.003 (Beta)

And a template of sounds with 8.5gb loaded into RAM.

The one prevailing issue that I keep coming back to involves Kontakt 3.5s handling of RAM. Here's the scenario:

KMS enabled, manual mode selected, 8.5gb loaded. 

With a large template loaded, it increases session save time to ~15 seconds. It takes ~25 minutes to load the whole template the first time, and about half that upon switching sessions or quitting and restarting the sequencer. 

I would have thought that with KMS, one wouldn't have to reload the samples between each session, and was surprised when I saw that in addition to the memory being reported by the KMS, the sequencer was also reporting between 1.5-2gb of RAM loaded, which is what gets loaded and unloaded between each session. In addition, it takes over 4 minutes to quit the sequencer. With that much additional RAM overhead, it will also be tricky to load anything else.

Sure, there are workarounds involving Bidule or another background app, but it just seems like we're so close to being capable of running a huge template natively, it's a shame that we still have these load times.

Does anyone have any idea why it's necessary to have this load/unload even with memory being utilized in a separate process? My programming days ended back in the fun DOS days, so maybe someone else has a better idea?

If anyone wants to see the results of my whole test (which includes load/CPU/RAM comparisons between Logic, DP, and Bidule) let me know.

sk


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## gsilbers (May 6, 2009)

well, i could load tons of exs inst in a mc g5 dual 2.5. with 6gig. but the issue was the time it took to load a cue/song. also, the more i wrote in a cue/song the programs memory grew shorter. thus getting more errors. 

so now with a new mcpro 2.66 10gigs of ram i can have bidue in the bgs with tons of samples and logic can chill for synths and editing etcetc. also change songs. 

so even though i could load 200 tracks in exs, the loading time kills me. it alwas has that why i just load the sample in bidule or on another compute.r


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## Ashermusic (May 7, 2009)

gsilbers @ Wed May 06 said:


> well, i could load tons of exs inst in a mc g5 dual 2.5. with 6gig. but the issue was the time it took to load a cue/song. also, the more i wrote in a cue/song the programs memory grew shorter. thus getting more errors.
> 
> so now with a new mcpro 2.66 10gigs of ram i can have bidue in the bgs with tons of samples and logic can chill for synths and editing etcetc. also change songs.
> 
> so even though i could load 200 tracks in exs, the loading time kills me. it alwas has that why i just load the sample in bidule or on another compute.r



Yes but the great thing about the EXS24 is that while loading the first cue takes a long time, if you change projects and the second one has a similar palette, as frequently happens in films, and you have the "Keep common samples in memory when switching projects" preference checked, it loads literally in seconds.

With KMS, loading samples in K 3.5 is faster than it was, but yeah, it is still slow, so I too am using Plogue Bidule, looping back into Logic through ADAT I/O in RME's Total Mix software..

But when Vienna Ensemble Pro comes out, it looks like it will be a more elegant solution.


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## dxmachina (May 7, 2009)

> looping back into Logic through ADAT I/O in RME's Total Mix software



Hey Jay,
Are you using the built-in loopback feature of Totalmix, or do you mean you are physically connecting ADAT-out to ADAT-in? Is there an advantage to doing it this way?

The other thing about Bidule/K3.5 that I'm still trying to quantify is the best way to make use of all my processing power. Whether to enable multi-proc support in K3.5, whether to make MP Assignments in Bidule... 

I do hope you're right about VE Pro (and I hope they are making use of the public beta of K3.5!). It would be nice to have much more abundant audio I/O available without making use of our audio-card inputs.


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## Synesthesia (May 7, 2009)

Hey DX,

I'd love to see your benchmarks..

Just an obvious comment guys.::: You do have a multiple of 3GB total memory, in matched triads yes?

The memory performance of the new macs drops drastically if you do not have precisely matched sets of 3 memory sticks... so 3x2GB, 6x2GB, 3x4GB, etc etc ..

Something about the bandwidth that I don't totally understand but you can google it - there's a lot of info out there on this point.

I have just had a new mac delivered for a project and despite my instructions the guys put in the 'extra' bit of RAM they had when the machine was delivered. Sure enough, its not much faster than the old macpro, until you take out the mismatched extra stick..

Cheers

Paul


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## rob morsberger (May 7, 2009)

sorry if I'm misreading here but you do know that in K3.5 you can set preferences so that kontakt preserves common samples between templates, exactly as EXS24 can do as Jay describes? This is a new feature.


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## dxmachina (May 7, 2009)

Yes, RAM in 3s here... in slots 1,2,3 as suggested by Apple.

Rob, we're discussing the load time that occurs even when keeping samples in memory. It takes around half the time to reload a template (with samples already in memory) than to do a complete load from scratch (nothing in RAM). 

So, for instance, it takes me around 25 minutes to load 8.41gb into RAM. If I then open a new session it will take about 12 minutes to open.

I also got this response on the NI forums today:



> Besides the samples everything in kontakt needs ram. The instrument data without sample can get over 1GB when loading many instruments with a numerous groups or large scripts. Also, the sequencer itself can easily take up several 100MB of RAM.
> 
> Unfortunately, the switch between sessions always requires a reload of all instruments, even if all samples are still present in the memory server. The instrument data is saved in the logic document and the engine never knows what data it will get from logic.



Paul, I'm going to upload a PDF of my test results, and will post the link here.


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## dxmachina (May 7, 2009)

Here's what I found when testing Logic/DP/Bidule with Kontakt 3.5. This is only based on a single system/setup, so bear in mind your results may differ:

http://idisk.mac.com/logicfriend-Public?view=web


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## Ashermusic (May 7, 2009)

DX machina is correct. My recommendation for Logic users using one computer is:

1. Keep as much of what you need in our template as EXS24 when there is a choice.

2. Host most of your K3.5 orchestral stuff in Plogue Bidule or when it becomes available and assuming it works as it is supposed to, Vienna Ensemble Pro.

3. If you use Plogue Bidule, do so looping back through ADAT I/O rather than Soundflower or ReWire if you have an audio interface that will do so, either virtually or by cabling.


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## careyford (May 7, 2009)

Hey Jay,

Which RME card do you use?

Richard


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## bdr (May 7, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Fri May 08 said:


> 3. If you use Plogue Bidule, do so looping back through ADAT I/O rather than Soundflower or ReWire if you have an audio interface that will do so, either virtually or by cabling.



If you're using K3.5, why is it better to use Bidule externally rather than rewire?


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## dxmachina (May 7, 2009)

> If you're using K3.5, why is it better to use Bidule externally rather than rewire?



The Rewire spec is currently limited to a single CPU thread, which is performance-killer in modern multi-cpu systems.

That said, I haven't tested what happens if you enable multi-proc support in K3.5 and run it rewire. Maybe someone else has?


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## John DeBorde (May 7, 2009)

Anyone know if Bidule works with the Apogee P-Bus on the Symphony card? Same with K3.5? Last I heard it did not work with K2.

thx
john


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## Ashermusic (May 7, 2009)

careyford @ Thu May 07 said:


> Hey Jay,
> 
> Which RME card do you use?
> 
> Richard



The new HDSPe-AIO.


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## Ashermusic (May 7, 2009)

dxmachina @ Thu May 07 said:


> > If you're using K3.5, why is it better to use Bidule externally rather than rewire?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What he said

This is a limitation of ReWire, which is long overdue for an overhaul to make it more robust IMHO.


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## ChrisAxia (May 8, 2009)

Hi SK,

Just FYI, I timed how long it took to open a project (Logic 7, 8 Core Mac Pro previous generation) with a fairly large Kontakt 3.5/EXS24 palette. The Kontakt memory shows 1.26 Gb, so about 1/7 of what yours is, and loads in about 2 minutes, with subsequent songs taking well under a minute, so I wonder if K3.5 is not using the Nahelem processor efficiently?

~Chris


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## dxmachina (May 8, 2009)

> Just FYI, I timed how long it took to open a project (Logic 7, 8 Core Mac Pro previous generation) with a fairly large Kontakt 3.5/EXS24 palette. The Kontakt memory shows 1.26 Gb, so about 1/7 of what yours is, and loads in about 2 minutes, with subsequent songs taking well under a minute, so I wonder if K3.5 is not using the Nahelem processor efficiently?



Hey Chris,

Thanks. It's nice to see some other numbers besides mine for comparison. Based on what I've seen and been told by NI, my gut tells me it has less to do with the model of Mac Pro, and more to do with the patches being loaded / number of Kontakt instances open. A patch with a lot of zones/groups and programming will take longer to load (and reload) than a less complicated patch with long samples. DFD pre-load settings probably also have some effect.

If anyone is interested in opening up the multis (you'll need the full EWQLSO XP Platinum) I used for my test as a comparison, let me know and I'll upload them. Or better yet, I can shoot off the Logic/DP/Bidule templates.


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## ChrisAxia (May 9, 2009)

dxmachina @ Fri May 08 said:


> Hey Chris,
> 
> Thanks. It's nice to see some other numbers besides mine for comparison. Based on what I've seen and been told by NI, my gut tells me it has less to do with the model of Mac Pro, and more to do with the patches being loaded / number of Kontakt instances open. A patch with a lot of zones/groups and programming will take longer to load (and reload) than a less complicated patch with long samples. DFD pre-load settings probably also have some effect.
> 
> If anyone is interested in opening up the multis (you'll need the full EWQLSO XP Platinum) I used for my test as a comparison, let me know and I'll upload them. Or better yet, I can shoot off the Logic/DP/Bidule templates.



I see. Isn't it amazing how we are so used to things happening almost immediately that waiting 5 minutes feels SO long! I remember spending 10 minutes with floppy discs to load one sound into my Roland S770 sampler!! Those were the bad old days...

~Chris


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## Stevie (May 9, 2009)

rob morsberger @ Thu May 07 said:


> sorry if I'm misreading here but you do know that in K3.5 you can set preferences so that kontakt preserves common samples between templates, exactly as EXS24 can do as Jay describes? This is a new feature.



Sorry, for my ignorance but could you elaborate how to do so?


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## Ashermusic (May 9, 2009)

Stevie @ Sat May 09 said:


> rob morsberger @ Thu May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > sorry if I'm misreading here but you do know that in K3.5 you can set preferences so that kontakt preserves common samples between templates, exactly as EXS24 can do as Jay describes? This is a new feature.
> ...



Enable the MKS Memory Server and set it to Manual. It does count down the time switching between projects with the same instruments, but not nearly as dramatically as the EXS24 does.


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## JT3_Jon (May 9, 2009)

dxmachina @ Thu May 07 said:


> > If you're using K3.5, why is it better to use Bidule externally rather than rewire?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is it possible that Apples "grand central" multi-processor support in OS 10.6 will make the need for a rewire update unnecessary? I'm assuming the problem is like Logic where chain audio processing must be done on a single processor. I wonder if Grand Central will help in this area.


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## chimuelo (May 10, 2009)

ChrisAxia @ Sat May 09 said:


> I see. Isn't it amazing how we are so used to things happening almost immediately that waiting 5 minutes feels SO long! I remember spending 10 minutes with floppy discs to load one sound into my Roland S770 sampler!! Those were the bad old days...
> 
> ~Chris



LoL,...........I remember using the Roland with those shoe boxed sized 1GB HDD's too. To continue using my Emulator samples I had 3 x Oberheim DPX's with their FDD's. Always had a couple loaded, and the others loading while I played.
I was the happiest man on the planet when Gigastudio first came out.
The Bulk of my income is live performance, and the idea of having 12GB's of content loaded is no biggie actually. I just can't re load while performing.
But 30 minutes of loading means I just get there a little earlier.
I like having the RAM being used for certain instruments that allow real time editing of horn swells etc. I am anxious to see 3.5 in action.


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## dinerdog (Jun 12, 2009)

Anyone using today's new Kontakt beta? I think it's new, just got the email today.

Dear KONTAKT users,

We have recently uploaded the third Public Beta version for KONTAKT 3.5 (internal version 3.5.0.013). This version is based on your feedback and includes a lot of important fixes and performance improvements.


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## brunodegazio (Jun 18, 2009)

I've been using it for a week or two. It still has a LOT of problems. I can't honestly say it appears any better than the previous version.

When it works, it's very nice. But it crashes frequently & unexpectedly (even with the computer asleep). 

Hard to say about any performance improvements. When it works, it seems to have very good performance. I can have it sequence 5-6 tracks flawlessly for 2 hours, then suddenly become unable to play even a single track without stuttering.

PS - this is on a Nehalem MacPro running OSX 10.5.7

Bruno


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## Ashermusic (Jun 18, 2009)

brunodegazio @ Thu Jun 18 said:


> I've been using it for a week or two. It still has a LOT of problems. I can't honestly say it appears any better than the previous version.
> 
> When it works, it's very nice. But it crashes frequently & unexpectedly (even with the computer asleep).
> 
> ...



There will be good news for Nehalem K 3.5. users soon.


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## dcoscina (Jun 18, 2009)

have not had any problems except that as of July 1st it won't work any more! THat date is fast approaching!!!


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## brunodegazio (Jun 19, 2009)

What do you mean about "good news for Nehalem Macs"?
Bruno


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## Ashermusic (Jun 19, 2009)

brunodegazio @ Fri Jun 19 said:


> What do you mean about "good news for Nehalem Macs"?
> Bruno



If I could have been more specific, I would have been more specific.


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## Frederick Russ (Jun 19, 2009)

dcoscina @ Thu Jun 18 said:


> have not had any problems except that as of July 1st it won't work any more! THat date is fast approaching!!!



Out of curiosity, do we just flip back to the regular version of K3 when that happens? The beta version overwrote every copy I had of regular K3 although I suppose I could simply reinstall it from the disks. That would be unfortunate to lose the advantages given by K3.5 - any word for us after July 1st?


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## Thonex (Jun 19, 2009)

my guess... and it's only a guess, is that NI will have an official release before then. I'm not sure if they are charing fr the K3.5 upgrade if you are upgrading from 3.0.

Maybe we should post this on the NI forum?


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## brunodegazio (Jun 19, 2009)

My guess is that before July 1 there will either be a release version or another beta.

As to the cost, I'm pretty sure NI stated that this will be a free upgrade to K3 users.

Bruno


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