# Jeremy Soule Sound



## Tempfram (Nov 27, 2020)

How would you describe the sound signature of the following pieces, and which commercial libraries out there (regardless of price/age) sounds the closest to it?




They sound different than his later works. (Skyrim for example)


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## José Herring (Nov 27, 2020)

Tempfram said:


> How would you describe the sound signature of the following pieces, and which commercial libraries out there (regardless of price/age) sounds the closest to it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hard to pin down. I would suggest looking up information on where and with what things were recorded. 

Just with a casual listen some things sound like there were kind of older samples and yet some things sound live, so depending on time, budget ect could be mixture of various things. Mostly live though as the sampling stuff could just be due to the bad youtube sound quality. 

At any rate that sound is heavily mixed so what I would do is do some research. Who was the engineer, what studio or hall, ect.. Then find out what gear they used. 

Then get samples that you can shape. EWHO is far more flexible sound wise than say SSO due to the reduced room information. 

Then go back and forth between your mock up and this example and see how close you can get. 

As a base I would start with libraries that had a good room but where the room isn't overwhelming. EWHO, CSS, CSB, VSL woodwinds, Audio Imperia or Spitfire Studio series come to mind. Then try to match this sound with EQ and reverb, compression, ect... 

You have your work cut out for you and in spite of Soule seeming to be somewhat of a horrible character having never really heard his music until just now, he has a lot going for him as a composer.


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## Tempfram (Nov 27, 2020)

> Just with a casual listen some things sound like there were kind of older samples



Since the tracks were made between 2000 and 2005 I was looking at stuff released at around that time.
They sound like of 'grainy' and 'edgy'. I have heard some pretty impressive mock-ups using the EWQLSO. 

Does the LASS sound fall into this style?


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## Dima Lanski (Nov 27, 2020)

As far as I know, The Elder Scrolls soundtracks were done mostly with samples except for the choir in Skyrim. Presumably LASS is used for the strings. I'm not 100% sure, so don't quote me on that. I just remember that Soule said he prefers full control over his sound, and therefore uses mostly samples. And he praised LASS and did a demo for them. Also, the strings in the clips you posted sound to me very much like LASS.


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## Tempfram (Nov 27, 2020)

Dima Lanski said:


> As far as I know, The Elder Scrolls soundtracks were done mostly with samples except for the choir in Skyrim. Presumably LASS is used for the strings. I'm not 100% sure, so don't quote me on that. I just remember that Soule said he prefers full control over his sound, and therefore uses mostly samples. And he praised LASS and did a demo for them. Also, the strings in the clips you posted sound to me very much like LASS.


I think the LASS was released in 2009, years after these games came out.

Which track did Soule do for LASS?


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## Dima Lanski (Nov 27, 2020)

Tempfram said:


> I think the LASS was released in 2009, years after these games came out.
> 
> Which track did Soule do for LASS?


You're right. So maybe LASS was only used for Skyrim. I'm not well versed in older sample libraries, unfortunately.

As for the track, it wasn't an official one. It was posted on Soundcloud at some point, and I tried to find it recently, but couldn't. Maybe it was taken down as part of his social media shutdown.



hbjdk said:


> Try google this: Jeremy Soule sample library.
> Some interesting links show up, both for interviews, to Reddit discussions etc.


Good advice. That's where I got my impressions of his use of sample libraries. I did my research on Jeremy Soule a couple of years ago, and there's a lot of interesting info in his interviews.


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## CT (Nov 27, 2020)

Hi there. Couple things....

I don't remember Jeremy doing a demo for LASS, but he did do one for Adagio Violins.

The main choir used for Skyrim was Requiem. Only the big featured male choir in the theme and a few other pieces was actually recorded (30 guys overdubbed three times) at Sony.

Like many composers, he's got everything. Most of it is heavily tweaked and customized. He also has a lot of his own stuff that he's done over the years. He's quite invested in pushing the technology of virtual instruments ahead....

As far as "the sound," I know it's not the sexy answer that one hopes for, but it really isn't a question of using a particular library or reverb or whatever. He has a strong musical and aesthetic voice which is always clear regardless of what tools are being used, whether in 2002 or 2020.

However, as far as Oblivion is concerned, you may want to look into some of the older VSL libraries, as well as the painstaking work that would go into spatializing them well. I suspect most commercially available libraries used for Morrowind (GOS etc.) may be lost to the ages thanks to the demise of Giga.


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## Haziel (Nov 27, 2020)

Jeremy Soule's trademark sound is very soft. Even the harsher songs in Skyrim (except the main theme) sounds quite soft. I think Albion would be well suited for that kind of music. Here's how his style is as of now (Skyrim and the northener diaries)

- Lush and smooth orchestra sound. That's the most important aspect: Jeremy Soule's music is very soft, airy and ethereal.

- Soft pads! He really started adding them to his songs in Skyrim. He went from using mostly only orchestral instruments to adding some pads to the mix. And it never sounds out of place. I think it really adds to the ethereal quality of his songs. I think he's using Omnisphere for the pads, I remember an old picture of him sitting somewhere in B.C with his laptop, we could see Omnisphere on the screen.

- Use choirs. The choirs for the exploration music in skyrim are very wet, almost pad-like. He uses lots of boys choirs (Mercury is a great choice) and deeper men's choirs (Requiem), often layered together. Use lots of deep choirs for night exploration music especially, makes the player feel like they're bathing in darkness in a beautiful way.

- As for the battle themes, they should always remain quite soft. In Oblivion even the battle themes are pretty and quite mellow. It's almost the same in skyrim, it's more rythmic but it still has Soule's trademark gentle sound.


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## Dima Lanski (Nov 27, 2020)

Mike T said:


> I don't remember Jeremy doing a demo for LASS, but he did do one for Adagio Violins.


Yep, you're right. I found the link, but the track is not available: 

I still remember Soule praising LASS somewhere... But again, I might be mixing things up. So disregard that until I find the source.


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## CT (Nov 27, 2020)

I wouldn't be surprised if he did.


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## fourier (Nov 27, 2020)

From the discussion, am I to take it that people don't vividly remember the music creating the perfect atmosphere for walking around Cyrodiil (Glory of Cyrodiil in Oblivion in particular)? Made all the difference.


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## Haziel (Nov 27, 2020)

fourier said:


> From the discussion, am I to take it that people don't vividly remember the music creating the perfect atmosphere for walking around Cyrodiil (Glory of Cyrodiil in Oblivion in particular)? Made all the difference.



Oblivion really had the best melodies. Some of Skyrim's best songs reuse Oblivion's melodies.


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## CT (Nov 27, 2020)

fourier said:


> From the discussion, am I to take it that people don't vividly remember the music creating the perfect atmosphere for walking around Cyrodiil (Glory of Cyrodiil in Oblivion in particular)? Made all the difference.



I don't think we'd be talking about it if we didn't vividly remember the experience.

Anyway, like I said, "the sound" is more about the composition and orchestration choices (and getting a good virtual performance!) than anything else. Trying to get there based on using particular libraries is futile. Here's a quick attempt with "any old libraries."


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## Locks (Nov 27, 2020)

I had a go about a year ago at recreating the more ambient kind of sounds from Skyrim. I don't think I'd even purchased any string libraries at this stage so I mostly was just using stock Ableton Live plugins and a couple of free plugins from around the web. Maybe some LABS? I can't really remember. It was fun though, I love that kind of music.


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## Toecutter (Nov 27, 2020)

I sunk in hundreds of hours into Morrowind and Oblivion! Is Jeremy still working after the accusations?


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## Haziel (Nov 27, 2020)

Locks said:


> I had a go about a year ago at recreating the more ambient kind of sounds from Skyrim. I don't think I'd even purchased any string libraries at this stage so I mostly was just using stock Ableton Live plugins and a couple of free plugins from around the web. Maybe some LABS? I can't really remember. It was fun though, I love that kind of music.




Sounds great! and that picture though... There's something so special about listening to that kind of music with snowy imagery.


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## Locks (Nov 27, 2020)

KimaelLarive said:


> Sounds great! and that picture though... There's something so special about listening to that kind of music with snowy imagery.



Thanks very much! And yeah I agree. The picture and wind sounds are actually doing most of the work!


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## CT (Nov 27, 2020)

Toecutter said:


> I sunk in hundreds of hours into Morrowind and Oblivion! Is Jeremy still working after the accusations?



I don't think the guy could stop chipping away at composing or tech stuff even if he tried.


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## Toecutter (Nov 27, 2020)

Mike T said:


> I don't think the guy could stop chipping away at composing or tech stuff even if he tried.


He vanished from social media. I was wondering if he's still putting music out, I can't find anything.


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## CT (Nov 27, 2020)

We'll see what the future may hold on that front.


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## Haziel (Nov 27, 2020)

Toecutter said:


> He vanished from social media. I was wondering if he's still putting music out, I can't find anything.



Well his reputation took a serious toll because of the Northerner Symphony disaster.


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## CT (Nov 27, 2020)

Jeremy has had some more serious problems than a clumsily handled Kickstarter campaign, but I'll leave you to look into that of your own volition as I think this is probably neither the right venue, nor an informed and involved enough group of people, to hash out that subject in any useful way.


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## Haziel (Nov 27, 2020)

Well in any cases I don't think The Elder Scrolls will ever have the same atmosphere without his music. TESO and Blades have some great music but it's still missing something.


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## CT (Nov 27, 2020)

I agree completely.


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## Tremendouz (Nov 27, 2020)

And here I thought those games used live recordings. Well damn, it seems I just need to git gud with my libraries.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 27, 2020)

For specifically oblivion I hear vsl cube all over it.


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## CT (Nov 27, 2020)

Yep.


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## lettucehat (Nov 27, 2020)

Yeah it's more about reverb and writing properly for the samples. If you listen to compilations, his sound doesn't change radically from Morrowind onward, maybe it was like that even before, I don't know. I thought he used his own samples. Anyway you could probably get 90% of the way there without even having legato samples, so like EWQLSO or far older. Morrowind was 2002! If you listen, particularly to the older stuff, you notice that he's writing what the samples can handle.

I remember reading he used the hell out of a Lexicon 300, but I'm sure the exact model doesn't matter. Also, subtly layering in synth pads is key. And what everybody else said about actual composing.


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## Tempfram (Nov 27, 2020)

Mike T said:


> However, as far as Oblivion is concerned, you may want to look into some of the older VSL libraries, as well as the painstaking work that would go into spatializing them well.



Do their new libraries sound different from the old ones?



lettucehat said:


> I remember reading he used the hell out of a Lexicon 300, but I'm sure the exact model doesn't matter. Also, subtly layering in synth pads is key. And what everybody else said about actual composing.


Are there modern reverbs that sound like that one?


Thank you.


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## CT (Nov 27, 2020)

Tempfram said:


> Do their new libraries sound different from the old ones?



The Synchron stuff is different, yes, though the Synchronized ports are obviously the older samples wrapped in the new player and supposedly cleaned up a bit etc.



Tempfram said:


> Are there modern reverbs that sound like that one?



There are a lot of plugins that will get you close to the Lexicon sound, including those from Lexicon itself. I am a fan of Relab's LX 480, but that's just one possiblity of many.


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## lettucehat (Nov 27, 2020)

Tempfram said:


> Do their new libraries sound different from the old ones?
> 
> 
> Are there modern reverbs that sound like that one?
> ...



I can answer definitively for the other guy, if I may - yes!! All libraries sound so different now. You can do Soule using pretty much anything going way back to the 2000s though. I'd advise going with something newer and more versatile since it's all very affordable now. Composer Cloud means Hollywood Orchestra *and* EWQLSO if you want something older and more of its time.

EastWest/QL Spaces, either I or II, will get you that with the Digital Hall reverbs, plus a million other nice presets. Also any Lexicon emulation like RC24/48, Relab, Valhalla Vintage Verb, etc. Even stock reverbs can do it. It's about getting the right settings.


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## lettucehat (Nov 27, 2020)

And I have a suspicion that Soule started using Sample Modeling horn (solo) on Skyrim, but I realize that's a big purchase just to fool around with. And not easy to program. But the timbre sounds like SM and it's very realistic.


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## rlundv (Nov 27, 2020)

I tried to mock up "From Past to Present" some time ago. Full walkthrough here:


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## purple (Nov 27, 2020)

I think he may have used some of the samples that come with the kontakt factory library. Not sure when they were released but I opened that library up for the first time a couple weeks ago to see if there's anything of use in it and I noticed the harp from one of the folders sounded _exactly_ like harvest dawn at the beginning. I could never mistake that harp sound for anything else as it's burned into my brain like the beginning of STAR WARS.

To answer your question more directly, I think his "sound" is really just "knowing how to use virtual instruments really well". I know it sounds silly, but I do really think what makes his music work so well is that the virtual aspect of the instruments really don't get in the way. He's a master of playing to his libraries and I feel like his libraries are in many cases a source of creativity in themselves for him. Of course you can do some music theory analysis/transcriptions to figure out how to sound just like him, but I think the "mojo" there is really just a knack for using MIDI for what it's good at.


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## Locks (Nov 27, 2020)

beyd770 said:


> I tried to mock up "From Past to Present" some time ago. Full walkthrough here:




That's funny. I actually remember watching this video just before I wrote the piece I shared a few posts back. It was actually what inspired me to have a go! You did a stellar job.


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## ansthenia (Nov 27, 2020)

Jeremy Soule uses mostly a personal custom made library that he's been building over many years. He was also throwing a ton of praise towards Garritan Personal Orchestra back when it came out so some of his scores from around that time probably have a lot of that.


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## Ihnoc (Nov 28, 2020)

Enjoying this appreciation of these soundtracks. This is a style I enjoy writing in too. Ethereal choir textures, there are certainly organic synths and I also often hear a psaltery or dulcimer in much of Skyrim at the least.


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## Jkist (Nov 28, 2020)

Locks said:


> I had a go about a year ago at recreating the more ambient kind of sounds from Skyrim. I don't think I'd even purchased any string libraries at this stage so I mostly was just using stock Ableton Live plugins and a couple of free plugins from around the web. Maybe some LABS? I can't really remember. It was fun though, I love that kind of music.



Wow, sounds awesome. Also how did you do that visualizer? Thats so cool! Just a nice picture with after-effects snow and a filter?


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## CT (Nov 28, 2020)

lettucehat said:


> And I have a suspicion that Soule started using Sample Modeling horn (solo) on Skyrim



Heard most clearly in the material added for the Dragonborn DLC.



purple said:


> I noticed the harp from one of the folders sounded _exactly_ like harvest dawn at the beginning



Yes, some of those KFL sounds are old VSL sounds.



Ihnoc said:


> a psaltery or dulcimer



Actually it's piano strings played with pencils!


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## José Herring (Nov 28, 2020)

So was this really all done with samples? If so, I need to really buckle down and get busy....


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## rlundv (Nov 28, 2020)

Locks said:


> That's funny. I actually remember watching this video just before I wrote the piece I shared a few posts back. It was actually what inspired me to have a go! You did a stellar job.


Thanks man! It was some time ago, and I have learned tons since back then, but still it was a very rewarding job going through the piece using ear and trying to get as much detail out as possible.


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## CT (Nov 28, 2020)

Indeed José! This is why I'm so damn picky about virtual instruments and never satisfied with what I'm able to do with them.


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## Locks (Nov 28, 2020)

Jkist said:


> Wow, sounds awesome. Also how did you do that visualizer? Thats so cool! Just a nice picture with after-effects snow and a filter?



Thank you. I used Final Cut and just masked a layer of animated snow over the picture. I also edited the picture in Photoshop and added a few motion effects to the mist to make it seem a bit more real. Here's a good tutorial on the technique.


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## José Herring (Nov 28, 2020)

Well if it helps anybody that opening is the unmistakable sound of LASS-LS which I just recently took out of my template which now is going to go right back in. Good thing I never unloaded the samples.


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## purple (Nov 28, 2020)

Yes, his tracks are a great rebuttal to those who say "realism" isn't worth trying to achieve in a virtual instrument. It can be done if you know what you're doing and you should not settle for poor scripting or sample sets in my mind simply because "well it won't ever be the real thing anyways"


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## José Herring (Nov 28, 2020)

I will help deconstruct the Soule sound as much as I can. 

The reverb is Lexicon. To my ears still the lushes reverb there is. Lexicon 300 is my favorite verb of all time. The Lexicon plugin is the only plugin that I've heard that can really get that sound. There are many good plugins though and should one not be able to pay the 500 clams for the Lexicon native package then the other two that come close are Vallhalla and Exponential Audio.

As for the woodwinds. Tough to tell. I want to say Vienna but not sure.

The main strings I wouldn't be surprised if he's using LASS throughout.


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## CT (Nov 28, 2020)

Yeah, the most worthwhile commercial stuff to look at in this context would be LASS, the VSL woodwinds, Samplemodeling horn, Requiem, Cineperc, and Omnisphere (mostly just the original Atmosphere library).

Also, the Roland Cloud piano....


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## Patrick Aylett (Nov 28, 2020)

These are my notes on Jeremy's methods and philosophy gathered from various places... 


If you want realistic reverb there is really only one way to go and that is with convolution. There are many popular products out there including Vienna MIR and Altiverb. Roland Cloud also has an excellent reverb that I built into the Concerto engine. These days I’m using both the onboard Concerto verb (which to me has the best math) and Altiverb.

The key with convolution is to use multiple well-made mic positions... and avoid time correction. Treat your impulses like actual mic positions. Traditional orchestral recording usually starts with a Decca tree configuration. There are 3 mics placed above the conductor. 









Decca tree - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org





Augmenting this setup is usually a pair of wides set about midway on either side of the orchestra. Lastly you’ll have a pair placed “deep” in the hall at least 40 ft back. 

Orchestra recordists also place spot mics strategically around the group. If you’re using virtual instruments, this same effect can be done with your wet/dry balances and panning. 

Bottom line - build your mix like the real thing if you want a realistic sound. Imagine where the instruments should be panned based on chair positions. Use mic impulses that match where mics would really be. And try to be aware of the spacial relationships between instruments and mics. How loud does an instrument naturally project? Brass can carry all the way to the deep pair. So, it should be wetter in a mix for a good sound. Flutes sit very close to the LCR on the Decca tree. So, they tend to be more present.

But hey, reverb is a philosophy and as such there are many ways to approach orchestral recordings. I also recommend an algorithmic verb be added to your mix as while impulses can simulate mics, real orchestral recordists traditionally would splash 2 channels of Lexicon 480L across the entire mix. If you’re familiar with the recordings at Sony Pictures, the immediate early reflections are quite dense and sweet but the room time is relatively short, so the top engineers I know would add algorithmic verb of 5 seconds or more to these recordings for that perfect “magic“ Hollywood sound. The latest Star Wars recordings are typical of this technique.

Again, it’s easier to approach it like this... Imagine you’re at a live recording session. And you might have an array of at least 7-10 mics. What you’ll need to do is imagine how much sound from each instrument or section is hitting those mics and determine the proportions with your sends. So, you’ll have sends set up on every channel on your mix and then you’ll need to manually decide the blend to send to your convolution verbs. You’re going to have 7-10 returns coming back. I generally run these at equal proportions depending on my headroom. The “mixing” of the “room mics” is totally done on the sends. Ok, so how do I go about calibrating all of this? I go through the instruments, one-by-one and play a few solo notes and imagine if they were in a real space, how would they sound? If they sound good in solo, they will sound realistic as a combined ensemble. Philosophically, treat your DAW as a portal to a real room. Convolution are your “mics” and your artificial verb can be added to a bus in a summing fashion - same as what would happen in a live setup.

Also, you’ll need to get the relative power of each instrument correct on your levels. Mix in midi using controller 7. I rarely if ever have to touch or automate a fader on a mixer. So think about the acoustic output of a brass instrument and make sure it fits against your winds in a realistic way while using midi as your amplitude adjustment.

Real orchestras “self-mix” so the trick in getting a good daw mix is you have to make sure your virtual instruments are in relative balance to each other as they would be in a real room. For instance, if your fader is too high on your horns, you’ll have a round, dull sound at Fortissimo and your natural tendency will be to play it at the right amplitude but you’ll be in the wrong tonal spectrum of the instrument... especially say, against your strings. And btw, one of the reasons strings often sound thin and harsh in virtual orchestra mixes is they are running an inappropriately high tonal center against too low of an output/amplitude setting. Another way to imagine this is with a vocal... a guy screaming at the top of his lungs recorded and the fader turned down is going to sound very strident, brassy and thin. But a guy singing at a soft dynamic with the fader turned way up will sound very chest-like and boomy. The same is true with instruments. You have to think of tonal and amplitude perspectives in relationship to electronic amplitude. 


If and when you are composing, and you get to a “now what?” moment…. try the standard musical rule first, then reflect on this for a moment and then break the rule if you must. Breaking a rule in of itself is an exciting composition device from time to time but I would be careful to keep things balanced and not to over surprise everyone. Sometimes the tonic or the vanilla chord is exactly the right and satisfying choice.


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## lettucehat (Nov 28, 2020)

So what are the big horn patches all over Morrowind and Oblivion and Eye of the North, but I guess less prominent by Skyrim... VSL Epic Horns? Custom?

I find it really interesting that he gives a long explanation about realism in reverb, when I think one of the nice and unique qualities of his sound is that it doesn't seem to care about sounding realistic - more dreamy. I mean he says he layers so many libraries that it winds up being 400 virtual players!


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## CT (Nov 28, 2020)

He's had those horns for a long time. They're not something you'll likely run into elsewhere.


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## MartinH. (Nov 28, 2020)

If I remember correcty @DreymaMusic has made some great Skyrim Mockups and original tracks inspired by Soule's work. And a while ago someone on Redbanned posted an entire album in that style, not sure if he's a member here as well. His name is Sylwester Faustmann and here's his music:


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## Dima Lanski (Nov 28, 2020)

Toecutter said:


> He vanished from social media. I was wondering if he's still putting music out, I can't find anything.


He did release 3 EPs in 2020. Phantasos, Vaka and Friðr. I have them in Apple Music, but I think they're available on other streaming platforms as well.



Tempfram said:


> How would you describe the sound signature of the following pieces, and which commercial libraries out there (regardless of price/age) sounds the closest to it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Found an interview taken at the time (2002): http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-13462.html

This quote of interest is:

A. Well, I've got a fairly conventional template I use that is in score order. For those that don't know what this is (bear with me all of you PhDs), it is merely the order of the instruments as they would appear on a conductor's chart. There are no other strings being used at Artistry Entertainment now. Everything you hear is GOS. I've got the strings split out on a D8B right now across "violins", "viola", "celli" and "basses" so it is a pretty simple setup. My strings tend to be heavier in verb than what you hear in real life. This is a stylistic thing that I do and it helps blend the different types of attacks. I use a Lexicon 300 pretty extensively along with a 960L in some cases. I also have darkened down the violins with a gentle British EQ roll-off. Something like 3.9 db starting in the mid ranges extending upwards. GOS tends to be bright so I took this into account in matching the sound of my ideal synth orchestra with the sound of a live orchestra. I also sometimes add a soft knee compressor to the basses and celli. This helps to focus the sound a bit. Panning is also a piece of cake. My firsts are gently nudged a bit more left than they come out of the box. I also nudge my celli to the right and brightened the celli on a lot of my mixes. Last but not least, I use lots and lots of expression control. Volume, foot, breath, mod...you name it. It's all there. You need all of these things to keep the tone articulation and phrasing musical. I use my lungs, hands and feet simultaneously. It's seems a bit like smoking and riding a motorcycle at the same time--it looks cool but it's easy to crash.

So, he was using GOS for strings exclusively back then.


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## Dima Lanski (Nov 28, 2020)

BTW, Jeremy has a patreon account: https://www.patreon.com/JeremySoule
10$ tier offers direct line to ask Jeremy questions. I wonder if anyone of the forum members is subscribed to it? If so, is he still available for questions? His social media shutdown makes me think he might not be for the time, that's why I'm asking.


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## Henu (Nov 28, 2020)

Dima Lanski said:


> 10$ tier offers direct line to ask Jeremy questions



Jesus tapdancing christ.


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## Haziel (Nov 28, 2020)

Henu said:


> Jesus tapdancing christ.



Edit: Actually, never mind. I feel bad for that burn. I respect his work too much to be this rude.


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## CT (Nov 28, 2020)

Dima Lanski said:


> If so, is he still available for questions? His social media shutdown makes me think he might not be for the time, that's why I'm asking.



Yes, I wouldn't expect much responsiveness at this point and so wouldn't suggest anyone sign up with that hope.


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## Scamper (Nov 28, 2020)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> For specifically oblivion I hear vsl cube all over it.



Yeah, I think I've read he used a lot of VSL back in the days.
Morrowind must have been around the time of the early Harry Potter game soundtracks, which I also enjoyed. Seems to be a similar sound.


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## Tempfram (Nov 28, 2020)

Dima Lanski said:


> So, he was using GOS for strings exclusively back then.


Which string library out there now sounds the closest to the GOS?

The EWQLSO and the old Sonivox Strings are all I have right now. 

And what about brass and woodwinds?


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## CT (Nov 28, 2020)

Scamper said:


> Yeah, I think I've read he used a lot of VSL back in the days.
> Morrowind must have been around the time of the early Harry Potter game soundtracks, which I also enjoyed. Seems to be a similar sound.




His Harry Potter stuff was actually done live!


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## Jish (Nov 28, 2020)

KimaelLarive said:


> Oblivion really had the best melodies. Some of Skyrim's best songs reuse Oblivion's melodies.



In an old interview he mentioned that he was involved in a near-fatal car crash shortly prior to work on _Oblivion _and that it had significant affect on the music he produced for it.

That part I found interesting, because, I remember beginning the TES series with _Morrowind, _and can still recall the almost immediate sense of deflation and disillusionment I felt towards myriad aspects of Oblivion having played Morrowind years prior- except for the music, which was very, very good. But, good in a somewhat different way.

Around that time I was trying a bit of the 'sound' I suppose is in question here- I actually will disagree with some by saying that I don't really think it maintains the level of _sameness _that is suggested, but as might appear obvious at surface, the overall 'world' aspect of those three games is informing the actual music as much as anything. Everything about Morrowind for me, at least- the aesthetics, the lore, ect, really I feel influenced the music to that game, if only in part subconsciously. There seems to be more emphasis placed in the 'explore' tracks on these strange harmonies that seem almost married to the strangeness of the game itself. It's less 'melodic', has less presence/brightness, and frankly, like the prior world is just more intriguing for me. The fact it was done in 2002 makes me admire it even more to this day, as does the direction/way he decided to take the music. Big bravo from the Jish man over here for that.

_Skyrim_ - again, the world/lore is informing the music, but to even a different level here- this goes without saying for the combat tracks in the game, where actual chants are lifted from in-game lore. As you would expect, the music expressed is cold like the environment, save for the shop and inn music, of course. Alot more can be said about all of this but it can be argued in damn near-equal measure that too much already has been.

Back in the day, when I only had the undying Roland GP-16 w/ expansions, GPO and a few other hard synths, I honestly felt that the included Garritan reverb, 'Ambience', had some very useful utility when trying to achieve that Elder Scrolls vibe. Must have done something right as my roommate at the time said I sounded 'alot like that nerd scrolls game'.


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## CT (Nov 28, 2020)

True, the aesthetic of Morrowind was much more strange and charmingly alien than the later two, which moved into a more familiar fantasy feeling, and the music followed suit. But, the compositional and production principles remain the same and I think that's the real key.


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## Scamper (Nov 28, 2020)

Mike T said:


> His Harry Potter stuff was actually done live!



Ah, I see. But it's just a part of the soundtrack then? Other tracks seem a lot more like samples.


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## Jish (Nov 28, 2020)

Mike T said:


> True, the aesthetic of Morrowind was much more strange and charmingly alien than the later two, which moved into a more familiar fantasy feeling, and the music followed suit. But, the compositional and production principles remain the same and I think that's the real key.



Yep, true on both counts. But, I must also say as echoed in my previous reply that for myself, I feel more of a general appreciation at this point in time in the _Morrowind_ compositions, as I feel that music more in the vein of the latter two titles has been almost more than well represented in other fantasy-esque titles. Some additional study as to what made the music to _TES III_, like the game itself, so charming and great can never hurt.


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## Haziel (Nov 28, 2020)

Mike T said:


> True, the aesthetic of Morrowind was much more strange and charmingly alien than the later two, which moved into a more familiar fantasy feeling, and the music followed suit. But, the compositional and production principles remain the same and I think that's the real key.



Well the process was indeed very similar in Morrowind and Oblivion. They were quite ''simple'' as far as instrumentation go, the soundtracks focused on very strong lead melodies. Skyrim however is very different, it's much more ''rich'' and atmospheric, less directly melodic I think. This is what made the world feel so big, everything sounded more ''distant''. In Morrowind and Oblivion, the music felt more personnal and close to you, which made the adventure feel more centered around the main player (which is ironic since you're the dragonborn and the story is supposed to revolve around you, but the music makes it feel otherwise, as if the whole world and all characters had a role to play). Now I don't wand to sound overly fancy or pretentious but I hope people get the point.


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## Tempfram (Nov 28, 2020)

Haziel said:


> Well the process was indeed very similar in Morrowind and Oblivion. They were quite ''simple'' as far as instrumentation go, the soundtracks focused on very strong lead melodies.


This is what I started the thread for.
What gave them their own immersive feel if they were that simple? Like loads of special processing techniques applied to each instrument?


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## Haziel (Nov 28, 2020)

Tempfram said:


> This is what I started the thread for.
> What gave them their own immersive feel if they were that simple? Like loads of special processing techniques applied to each instrument?



By simple I mean they never felt supercharged, they felt clean and very easy to break up. There wasn't anything fancy in terms of processing techniques (both in articulations and FX), I don't even remember hearing a legato in Oblivion and Morrowind. You had a strong melody and everything else was rather simple and mostly served as a backbone to carry the melody.

What made Oblivion's soundtrack so immersive? It's not just the music. It's the visuals. See that song posted above with the beautiful snowy forest. The music alone would not be the same without staring at the picture. Oblivion's magic came from the beautiful and peaceful looking environments coupled with Jeremy Soule's soft comforting music.


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## Tempfram (Nov 28, 2020)

Haziel said:


> You had a strong melody and *everything else was rather simple and mostly served as a backbone to carry the melody.*


Despite the tracks being composed of a small number of distinct voices, there is still this backdrop behind the entire scene that establishes the mood. 

Is it simply a Gestalt effect arising out of the sum of the individual, clearly delineated voices, or another sound(pad?) in itself?


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## CT (Nov 28, 2020)

Tempfram said:


> This is what I started the thread for.
> What gave them their own immersive feel if they were that simple? Like loads of special processing techniques applied to each instrument?



Simple IS immersive. Music that has "space" in it (in several senses of the word) gets into the cracks of the imagination more readily, is more able to feel like it's specifically there for your own personal little adventure, instead of imposing a more definite narrative or mood on you. Dunno if this is really what you're asking but it is an important part of this.


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## Tempfram (Nov 28, 2020)

Mike T said:


> Simple IS immersive. Music that has "space" in it (in several senses of the word) gets into the cracks of the imagination more readily, is more able to feel like it's specifically there for your own personal little adventure, instead of imposing a more definite narrative or mood on you. Dunno if this is really what you're asking but it is an important part of this.


Yeah, that's what I meant. I keep thinking I hear something that isn't itself a distinct musical pitch or melody, but something almost white/pink noise like that gives context to all the concrete sounds in the foreground.

Kind of like the point of focus/plane at infinity in the distance employed in scene paintings.


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## Mrmonkey (Nov 28, 2020)

Ah my favourite subject. Here is me trying to do a clip of a Soule song from Skyrim.


I’m not very good but after tying and failing I think it’s less about specific samples and more about combining very near and very far elements so the orchestra sounds all around you but the major voice at any one time pokes out. Also, additional synths often in high registers, and I feel like there are horns often doubling the baseline and lots of clever use of low drums to get some rumble. 

Would love to know more on his tone and techniques becasue his music is absolutely breathtaking. Going to try a homage one day to learn a bit more.


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## CT (Nov 28, 2020)

That's a nice transcription. By the way, if you have Omnisphere, try playing some high open chords on "Ice Caves 1."


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## Tremendouz (Nov 28, 2020)

That sounds amazing and if I didn't know better (and hadn't played 500 hours of Skyrim) I would think it's from the game.


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## EvgenyEmelyanov (Nov 28, 2020)

Mrmonkey said:


> I’m not very good



You are very good at orchestration and your mockup sounds wonderful <3


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## Dan Drebing (Jan 4, 2021)

Mike T said:


> He's had those horns for a long time. They're not something you'll likely run into elsewhere.


I'm convinced a lot of his samples are custom, although maybe not from his music in the 2000's. I used to be on his patreon and I vaguely remember him talking about recording custom samples so he could get mic positions + stage position + venues + playing techniques that he wanted (I'm guessing especially his french horns and drums from Skyrim). There's just the right room/space information in the multiple mic position samples to work nicely with the room info he gets from multiple reverb instances.

I've obsessed over the sound + composition way too much, and have mostly settled on using EWHO with dashes of SSO and the a Lex 480 plugin and a good convo reverb. I haven't quite got my setup built like what he described in that big post (with multiple mic positions routing to different reverbs) because I'm not sure that the EWHO mic positions are anything like what he has on his custom samples, both the recording room and the positions themselves (except maybe Decca Tree). What really strikes me about the Skyrim sound, and why I think it is so successful, is the clarity and sense of space; I just can't quite get the expansiveness and feeling of air and space from my samples and reverb (and writing). I think it partially comes from the room info in the samples themselves, which can allow the reverb to only provide the "magic powder" on the mix _instead _of having to provide the majority of the room sound for samples recorded in a small space.

Here's my best effort at a Skyrim track:


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## Joulupukki (Jan 4, 2021)

To reproduce the Morrowind / Guild Wars sound (if that is requested), I simply use GOS strings, GPO and/or Westgate winds, GPO and/or SI brass and GPO/VIR2 percussion. Nothing more is needed. IMO high-quality newer libraries don't capture the original 2002/2005 Soule vibe. For uh and ah choir sounds I use also outdated products. Oblivion is a different pair of shoes as Soule stated in interviews at the time that he used his own orchestral product and partially real musicians. But from today's perspective it is not of much higher quality than Morrowind.


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## lettucehat (Jan 4, 2021)

Joulupukki said:


> To reproduce the Morrowind / Guild Wars sound (if that is requested), I simply use GOS strings, GPO and/or Westgate winds, GPO and/or SI brass and GPO/VIR2 percussion. Nothing more is needed. IMO high-quality newer libraries don't capture the original 2002/2005 Soule vibe. For uh and ah choir sounds I use also outdated products. Oblivion is a different pair of shoes as Soule stated in interviews at the time that he used his own orchestral product and partially real musicians. But from today's perspective it is not of much higher quality than Morrowind.


Would love to hear it! Don't hear much about those libraries these days, and I agree there's something about them (and of course, the way they are being used by the composer).


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## CT (Jan 4, 2021)

GOS is definitely still viable for that kind of thing. Even when going for an early 2000's sound though, I'd shy away from much else Garritan....


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## Tempfram (Feb 17, 2021)

Joulupukki said:


> To reproduce the Morrowind / Guild Wars sound (if that is requested), I simply use GOS strings, GPO and/or Westgate winds, GPO and/or SI brass and GPO/VIR2 percussion. Nothing more is needed. IMO high-quality newer libraries don't capture the original 2002/2005 Soule vibe. For uh and ah choir sounds I use also outdated products. Oblivion is a different pair of shoes as Soule stated in interviews at the time that he used his own orchestral product and partially real musicians. But from today's perspective it is not of much higher quality than Morrowind.


Is the newly released strings from Audiobro any closer than that?

GOS is unavailable, and so are the original Sonic implants libraries. Can the EWQLSO substitute for them?


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## Jish (Feb 17, 2021)

Tempfram said:


> Is the newly released strings from Audiobro any closer than that?
> 
> GOS is unavailable, and so are the original Sonic implants libraries. Can the EWQLSO substitute for them?


GOS has been unavailable for a very long time, but the earlier iterations of GPO (perhaps still?) used many of the same samples- also, he wasn't only using the old GOS, but other old gem's as well such as the Goffriller Cello, which sounded especially fantastic for the time. It would be nice if someone could confirm if the newer versions of GPO contain the same (string) samples, when I owned GPO2 I found using some of them mainly in a 'pad' sense with the included ambience verb really did alot of work getting the JS sound of that earlier pre-Oblivion period.

Joulupukki, could you share any audio tracks regarding the earlier sound? I think it would be interesting to hear how those older libraries come together; I agree that by 'Oblivion' it starts to sound different, and that those old libraries in context referenced no longer really fit for how his 'sound' was 'evolving' by then.


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## Baronvonheadless (May 19, 2021)

Was lurking on this thread and I just want to throw some shade, saying Skyrim gets talked about way way too much, and the (far superior) score from Knights of the Old Republic never gets talked about! It's just way older, older midi, and not as hyped a game. But it has some of his absolute best melodies and space in his music.


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## CT (May 19, 2021)

Never loved his ventures into Williams territory as much as other stuff, but that's a nostalgic score for sure. Same "tech era" as Morrowind, really.


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## Baronvonheadless (May 19, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Never loved his ventures into Williams territory as much as other stuff, but that's a nostalgic score for sure. Same "tech era" as Morrowind, really.


True, but I feel like it's not even that William'ish though, besides maybe the main theme but even that is kind of different? I feel like Griskey's KOTOR 2 score is way more Williams. 

I really loved the Taris/Bastilla/Manaan/dantoine pieces from that game.


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## CT (May 19, 2021)

Hah, I haven't heard this stuff in... who knows how many years. Interesting to revisit it now.


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## Baronvonheadless (May 19, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Hah, I haven't heard this stuff in... who knows how many years. Interesting to revisit it now.


Yeah, I think I'll re play KOTOR 1 & 2 once every three years or so haha. I really love that era of Star Wars Games and RPGs in general. His Oblivion score is superior to Skyrim in my opinion honestly.
I actually really like Griskey's score to Kotor 2. So dark, so John Williams it hurts but it's like if John Williams was overtaken by the dark side haha.


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## rlundv (May 19, 2021)

I have made a new walkthrough, this time of "Far Horizons". Again, it's not a 100% accurate version of the original, but I think came fairly close. Hope it can be of some benefit.


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## Banquet (May 20, 2021)

beyd770 said:


> I have made a new walkthrough, this time of "Far Horizons". Again, it's not a 100% accurate version of the original, but I think came fairly close. Hope it can be of some benefit.



Great video. You really captured the sound! I'm doing an online composing course, currently on the module about structure, and it's interesting to note Far Horizons appears to be AAAB? So, no return back to A... I would think that is quite rare?


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## AlexRuger (May 20, 2021)

Lots of good info in this thread. I think the main thing here is -- and this goes for a lot of sample-based scores -- not so much the products used, and more the willingness to chase whatever vibe and aesthetic is in your head and to not give up until it's perfect. And perhaps most important of all, to _have _an aesthetic goal. Soule has definitely always had that. Skyrim is just _dripping_ with vibe.

You can look up the reverbs and libraries used all day, but that won't get you anywhere. You need to be willing to stretch the tools that you _do _have, to approach your tools with creativity and taste. Like, if you don't have a Lexicon, who cares -- maybe try rolling your own by stretching the reverbs in your arsenal with (not so) subtle use of delay and chorus; try soloing instruments and printing just the reverb (if the reverb is shared) and then automating a filter on just the reverb for some of the instruments, and see what happens. Etc. Tenacity is the name of the game.

Have a vibe, a color, in mind, and work backwards from there, utilizing what you have. When I listen to Soule's work, that's what I hear: attention to detail (especially considering the tools available at the time...like, have you _heard _Garritan Personal Orchestra? Methinks he doth praise too much), space, the subtle and huge ways the composition and the mix intertwine and inform one another. 

I know the whole "it's not the tools, it's how you use them" is cliche as hell, but it only ever becomes more and more true to me. Masters of the game don't let their tools control them; they control their tools and coax out what they want from them. 

Since everyone's posting their Skyrim-inspired tracks, here's a cue for an upcoming game score of mine that definitely took a page or two out of his TES work:









HammerHelm_Dwarf Stronghold Exploration_mastered.wav


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





(For anyone who wants to know, that's a mixture of LASS and CSS, CSB and CineBrass...and of course Dominus holding it down doing what Dominus does best).

Whenever mentioning Jeremy Soule, I'd be remiss if I didn't also point out the allegations made against him. Though, as far as I know, they didn't result in any charges, I personally know and have worked with one of his accusers and have absolutely zero reason to doubt her story. And his Kickstarter debacle definitely doesn't buy him any credibility in defending himself.

I'm still a fan of his music, and the Elder Scrolls games are literally my favorite games of all time by a wide margin, but at this point I'm very uncomfortably separating the person from the music.


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## rlundv (May 20, 2021)

Banquet said:


> Great video. You really captured the sound! I'm doing an online composing course, currently on the module about structure, and it's interesting to note Far Horizons appears to be AAAB? So, no return back to A... I would think that is quite rare?


Thanks man! I guess it depends on how you would think in terms of "theme/part", and how to separate them. It's not unheard of to break free from traditional structure when scoring music for games, especially when writing ambience/exploring-tracks.


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## Banquet (May 20, 2021)

AlexRuger said:


> Since everyone's posting their Skyrim-inspired tracks, here's a cue for an upcoming game score of mine that definitely took a page or two out of his TES work:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's lovely!


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## Banquet (May 20, 2021)

beyd770 said:


> Thanks man! I guess it depends on how you would think in terms of "theme/part", and how to separate them. It's not unheard of to break free from traditional structure when scoring music for games, especially when writing ambience/exploring-tracks.


I'll have to listen again when I get back from work, but it seems to have the main theme as horns, then again softer (with oboe/winds?) and then again with flutes and violins... then the different part (B) to the end. Does the end part have the same 'chords' as the main theme?

I wonder how it would sound if the end (B) part had been after the 2nd repetition and then the flutes and violins had repeated the main theme to the end?


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## CT (May 20, 2021)

AlexRuger said:


> I know the whole "it's not the tools, it's how you use them" is cliche as hell, but it only ever becomes more and more true to me. Masters of the game don't let their tools control them; they control their tools and coax out what they want from them.


Yeah absolutely. Tenacity is the right way to put it I think, when it comes to any sort of emulation using this stuff. Although in some cases, like this one, in addition to the choice of either being controlled by your tools or controlling them, there's also the "make better tools altogether" approach....


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## Jish (May 20, 2021)

AlexRuger said:


> Have a vibe, a color, in mind, and work backwards from there, utilizing what you have. When I listen to Soule's work, that's what I hear: attention to detail (especially considering the tools available at the time...like, have you _heard _Garritan Personal Orchestra? Methinks he doth praise too much), space, the subtle and huge ways the composition and the mix intertwine and inform one another.
> 
> I know the whole "it's not the tools, it's how you use them" is cliche as hell, but it only ever becomes more and more true to me. Masters of the game don't let their tools control them; they control their tools and coax out what they want from them.


This is true, but the threshold of exactly when it becomes a matter of skill vs technology being used is often far less obvious- I used several iterations of GPO on and off for around 3-4 years, and I can tell you that even going back to 2002 with Morrowind he wasn't using GPO - it was a mixture of the earlier Garritan Orchestral Strings (which were _vastly_ better than what was available in GPO circa 2004) and the Goffriller cello- which still sounds rather lovely, even today. His brass mostly came from custom samples, even then, as well as some percussion. So the music we are hearing from that time that inspired so many people then at that early period in his career- in context were all best-of-available or largely even custom created samples- this to me suggests that _what_ tools you are using, can have a tremendous end effect, _specifically_ if you have a conceived architecture of sound in mind, which as you say spot on, Soule had even way back then (like, let's face it- so many notable artist's/soloists/virtuoso's).

I always get kind of this, bittersweet/creeping depressive feeling when I think back to his style on what will ultimately make his music remembered (_TES _series) as I can recall too well playing around with some higher quality Roland sound expansions around 97-98 and thinking, "You know, there is _very_ interesting potential for mixing varying levels of good verbs/delay to different orchestral sections, especially within a context of harmony". What I couldn't see coming is that the most noteworthy practitioner of this sound would come just so soon after, and do it so damn well that if you wrote even a few yards too close within said 'style' your own music would inevitably be given comparisons with theirs- I remember feeling elated and in some strange way vindicated after hearing the music to _Morrowind_ in 02' but also shortly after bummed at suspecting how the rest of us would inevitably be given the 'clone' or 'watered down' label in regard to Soule's work- hell, I even think he mentioned it in an interview once in regards to other composers in game media. So, I eventually let that style (mostly) die in regards to my own stuff. Life still goes on.



AlexRuger said:


> Whenever mentioning Jeremy Soule, I'd be remiss if I didn't also point out the allegations made against him. Though, as far as I know, they didn't result in any charges, I personally know and have worked with one of his accusers and have absolutely zero reason to doubt her story. And his Kickstarter debacle definitely doesn't buy him any credibility in defending himself.
> 
> I'm still a fan of his music, and the Elder Scrolls games are literally my favorite games of all time by a wide margin, but at this point I'm very uncomfortably separating the person from the music.


I wouldn't go as far as to say you would be _remiss _without bringing up the allegations, only because when speaking about an artists's work in a topic/thread such as this I think we should be able to focus on the topic at hand (a 'sound') without really bringing any of that up unless it somehow calls for it in the thread (it really shouldn't). I remember there was an entire topic on here devoted just to the personal allegations and what that entailed, and that's where anyone should really be further discussing it- when it's pushed a bit _too_ far, it almost seems like there is this unseen pressure of guilt post-2019 with this composer now if you still enjoy/value his music- that ain't right, imo, and I'm glad you have a mature prospective , especially knowing one of the people involved (for the record, I actually thought he was a kind of shitty person- _prior_ to any of the allegations, but that's for another time).


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## CT (May 20, 2021)

I love his music... quite a bit. There is much I wish I could say about non-musical matters but it's not remotely my place to do so. Let's just enjoy what he did/does if possible, and if that's not possible for anyone, so be it.


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## Snarf (May 20, 2021)

For anyone who's interested, here's a Youtube channel with a number of Jeremy Soule transcriptions I found: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCojymsCUdgFdzMiZvDt_SgA

Playlist (KOTOR, Skyrim, etc):


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## AlexRuger (May 20, 2021)

Jish said:


> I wouldn't go as far as to say you would be _remiss _without bringing up the allegations, only because when speaking about an artists's work in a topic/thread such as this I think we should be able to focus on the topic at hand (a 'sound') without really bringing any of that up unless it somehow calls for it in the thread (it really shouldn't). I remember there was an entire topic on here devoted just to the personal allegations and what that entailed, and that's where anyone should really be further discussing it- when it's pushed a bit _too_ far, it almost seems like there is this unseen pressure of guilt post-2019 with this composer now if you still enjoy/value his music- that ain't right, imo, and I'm glad you have a mature prospective , especially knowing one of the people involved (for the record, I actually thought he was a kind of shitty person- _prior_ to any of the allegations, but that's for another time).


If I'm the discussing philosophy of Ted Kaczynski and say, "you know, his manifesto certainly brings up some good points," I'd be remiss if I didn't also distance myself from his more _negative _associations. Otherwise one might cause some eyebrows to raise. 

Praise for one part of the person's life and silence on another could be mistaken for a wholesale tacet endorsement. Obviously the men/situations I'm using in this comparison are apples and oranges, but the concept itself still stands. 

Plus, knowing one of the accusers personally makes it -- well, personal, to a degree. It certainly doesn't feel right for me to _not _bring it up and make my feelings about it explicit, especially within the context of praise for another aspect of his life.


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## Composer 2021 (May 20, 2021)

My view is that whether or not you want to cancel someone post-accusations, their existing music (or any kind of art) should not be cancelled. I'm really disappointed that EA seems to have cancelled Soule by not re-releasing his Harry Potter video game soundtracks along with the re-releases of the two James Hannigan HP game soundtracks. Last year, EA records re-released some soundtracks to video games that they had lost the rights to by calling them "EA Music Composer Series" volumes. Soule's 5 Harry Potter video game scores have never been heard in lossless format because the games used compressed formats, and the previous soundtracks (which were digital only and taken down in 2009 for unknown reasons) would only have been released in max 256 AAC on the iTunes store. I'm sad that I didn't buy them back then.


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## Jish (May 20, 2021)

AlexRuger said:


> If I'm the discussing philosophy of Ted Kaczynski and say, "you know, his manifesto certainly brings up some good points," I'd be remiss if I didn't also distance myself from his more _negative _associations. Otherwise one might cause some eyebrows to raise.
> 
> Praise for one part of the person's life and silence on another could be mistaken for a wholesale tacet endorsement. Obviously the men/situations I'm using in this comparison are apples and oranges, but the concept itself still stands.
> 
> Plus, knowing one of the accusers personally makes it -- well, personal, to a degree. It certainly doesn't feel right for me to _not _bring it up and make my feelings about it explicit, especially within the context of praise for another aspect of his life.


Hi Alex,

I think this is just a point where we differ somewhat ( and again, I will re-iterate in similar spirit as you prior, that basically, I think the guy on a personal level is as an Italian tennis player once coined, 'uomo di merda'.

However, if we have now entered a space where discussion of an individual as it pertains to their intellectual, much less artistic merits calls for a preemptive "Y'know I just wanna get it out of the way- that Kaczynski guy, right about alot of the implications of mass industrialization within context of a mostly resource-based, Capitalist society- but I'm not much for that bombing business that wasn't right" then we are in a pretty bad spot on a number of levels. 

Like Mike intimated above, there is more that could be said in a non-music/personal context which would only make him (Soule) look worse than he already does, but I don't want to here, and this thread certainly isn't the place to do so (IMO). If one perceives any given positive appraisals/opinions of someone on a topic devoted almost entirely to an artist's sound as anything approaching 'wholesale tacet endorsement' with regards to the outside/personal, then we have reached a level of cynicism that is mind-numbing. And I enjoyed the 'Hammerhelm' track 

I keep hoping Joulupukki will post a track from the roughly 02' period of JS' sound if we just bug him enough


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## CT (May 20, 2021)

Jish said:


> Like Mike intimated above, there is more that could be said in a non-music/personal context which would only make him (Soule) look worse than he already does


Just to be clear, that's not at all what I meant.


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## Jish (May 20, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Just to be clear, that's not at all what I meant.


Got it- it read in the post as somewhat cryptic, and sounded as though it may have been tied to something not great that occurred- I have heard more than one story from someone and it wasn't even related to sexual harassment, more a back-stabbing attempt that sounded pathetically petty. I'm leaving my final thought's on this in the below paragraph.

At any rate- and yes, this ties somewhat directly into what Composer2021 above said Re cancel culture- I still hope he ultimately is given an opportunity to score _TES:VI _- thus far the music to these games remains as good if not better than anything else out since, and whether I like it or not he is a once in a generation composer/artist; if allegations over time should become effective charges, so be it. Until then, I think this deeply flawed human should do what he does best, and what no one else can do. It sucks in a myriad of ways, but hey, life has a tendency to be that way at times.

Just remember folks- we have just elected two back-to-back President's accused of either rape, or sexual assault- I'm not saying that makes anything better, but on some scary level a hell of a lot of us are not as concerned about this as typically construed/thought, or neither would have gotten as far as they did.


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## Composer 2021 (May 20, 2021)

There is no way Bethesda will allow his controversy to follow them onto TES VI, sadly.


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## Jish (May 20, 2021)

Composer 2021 said:


> There is no way Bethesda will allow his controversy to follow them onto TES VI, sadly.


Agreed, that is easily the safe money bet, but yet more unlikely things have occurred...


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## CT (May 20, 2021)

Composer 2021 said:


> There is no way Bethesda will allow his controversy to follow them onto TES VI, sadly.


That may not have necessarily been the direction Bethesda wanted to go in anyway....


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## fcangia (May 21, 2021)

Mike T said:


> His Harry Potter stuff was actually done live!


I think only some tracks, but I've been always impressed with how good he is to make libraries sound alive, even in 2002. Maybe because this game was my childhood 
(this one made by samples)


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## ThomasJ.Curran (May 21, 2021)

fcangia said:


> I think only some tracks, but I've been always impressed with how good he is to make libraries sound alive, even in 2002. Maybe because this game was my childhood
> (this one made by samples)



Ah this music takes me back to exploring the hogwarts castle grounds, many years ago. Jeremy Soules music really makes those early Harry Potter games


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## chibear (May 21, 2021)

Composer 2021 said:


> There is no way Bethesda will allow his controversy to follow them onto TES VI, sadly.


I was going to keep quiet on this subject but I have a strong opinion on events like this and since I’m in my 70’s everyone is going to hear it like it or not.

Allegations are not convictions. Jeremy as well as many others deserve their day in court….one way or the other.

Assumption of guilt by accusation or mere innuendo undermines the entire justice system. Add to that the social media lynch mobs and if I were young I would be very worried about my future and be absolutely paranoid about any questionable behaviour I may have been involved in no matter how minor it seemed at the time.

If Jeremy is in fact guilty he should go down. If it turns out ppl are participating in either personal or professional vendettas then they have done irreparable damage to his career and, if I were he, would make them pay dearly in civil court for their slander.


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## Brasart (May 21, 2021)

Jish said:


> when speaking about an artists's work in a topic/thread such as this I think we should be able to focus on the topic at hand (a 'sound') without really bringing any of that up unless it somehow calls for it in the thread (it really shouldn't).


Soule *LITERALLY SAID* sex inspired his music, his sound.
Please stop burying your head into the sand guys.

Here's a little excerpt of the testimony to refresh your memories:

_"He talked about the mystical power women hold over men with sex. How men are helpless and they need sex. How he needs sex, and a relationship, so he can write his music. He talked about how composing is sexual, and how he will write about sex as inspiration in his music. He talked about how performing music is very sexual. He wrote songs about women that he had relationships with this way. What he does to women, is what inspires his music. The work he composed for video games is based on this"_


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## gtrwll (May 21, 2021)

Jish said:


> Agreed, that is easily the safe money bet, but yet more unlikely things have occurred...


I was under the impression that Inon Zur is writing the music for TES VI. I could be wrong, it was a VGMA event I attended last year where he was talking.


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## WhiteNoiz (May 21, 2021)

I think the HP games are mostly live after the 3rd or 4th one, but I could be wrong. I'd posted an example here from the first one. It's possible it was a mix even then or maybe they selectively recorded the most "important" stuff, like the theme. 

Comparison (again, not entirely sure, just guessing):





World of Warcraft, which libraries were used?


lol just curious then, what was your best character and to what level did ya'll get it to? mine: blood elf death knight level 80. Then i quit... I played every xpac until the panda one. I dabbled in Warlords to level 100, but didn't raid or anything. My friend just got back into it and called...




vi-control.net


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## Baronvonheadless (May 21, 2021)

Brasart said:


> Soule *LITERALLY SAID* sex inspired his music, his sound.
> Please stop burying your head into the sand guys.
> 
> Here's a little excerpt of the testimony to refresh your memories:
> ...


^^ Wait till you hear what blues, jazz, and rock n roll are all about...

In all seriousness though, I believe the accuser. I believe that he’s an abuser/predator. I think that whole situation is terrible. I remember reading the whole statement awhile back. It’s a bit foggy now, but it was very very disappointing. 

However, I never understood personally what the issue with music being inspired by sex is. If you remove the context of it being said by a creep, and it was quoted from any other old artist, with no history of abuse, there’s nothing wrong with that specific quote. It’s called a muse? I mean I guess it depends on the way you’re writing about sex? But sex, love, romance and lust are common inspirations behind a lot of art.
Abuse, manipulation, sexual harassment and rape are a different story. I guess I’m just being too particular on the specific verbiage of that quote be the details of the story?

Sorry if this post seems petty or making light of it. That is not my intent.


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## Brasart (May 21, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> ^^ Wait till you hear what blues, jazz, and rock n roll are all about...
> 
> In all seriousness though, I believe the accuser. I believe that he’s an abuser/predator. I think that whole situation is terrible. I remember reading the whole statement awhile back. It’s a bit foggy now, but it was very very disappointing.
> 
> ...


This is a quote from the victim's testimony; Soule is a known sexual predator, he says his music is inspired by sex, his sound is literally inspired by his abhorrent disgusting acts.

I'm not sure what you had trouble understanding?
The point of the quote is not to say sex has to be separate from art; sex can of course inspire music, but this is a case of rape and sexual harassment, from a guy who said sex inspires his music, and people still try to say "let's separate the art from the artist".


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## visiblenoise (May 21, 2021)

Brasart said:


> This is a quote from the victim's testimony; Soule is a known sexual predator, he says his music is inspired by sex, his sound is literally inspired by his abhorrent disgusting acts.
> 
> I'm not sure what you had trouble understanding?
> The point of the quote is not to say sex has to be separate from art; sex can of course inspire music, but this is a case of rape and sexual harassment, from a guy who said sex inspires his music, and people still try to say "let's separate the art from the artist".


Seems rather puritan to listen to the Oblivion theme song and think "SEX! DEVIANCE!"


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## Brasart (May 21, 2021)

visiblenoise said:


> Seems rather puritan to listen to the Oblivion theme song and think "SEX! DEVIANCE!"


Yes, that's exactly the point of what my posts were about, well read!


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## TSU (May 21, 2021)

so much sex here...


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## TSU (May 21, 2021)

Brasart said:


> he says his music is inspired by sex



that's what she said, not Soule
or am I missing something?


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## Brasart (May 21, 2021)

TSU said:


> that's what she said, not Soule
> or am I missing something?


She recounts what he said, "he" refers to Soule


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## TSU (May 21, 2021)

Brasart said:


> this is a case of rape and sexual harassment, from a guy who said sex inspires his music


and this is what she said too? or Soule?
I am a bit puzzled


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## fcangia (May 21, 2021)

WhiteNoiz said:


> I think the HP games are mostly live after the 3rd or 4th one, but I could be wrong. I'd posted an example here from the first one. It's possible it was a mix even then or maybe they selectively recorded the most "important" stuff, like the theme.
> 
> Comparison (again, not entirely sure, just guessing):
> 
> ...


yes I guess that's true  in the third, there's a lot of real orchestra - and choir! (except some tracks from the previous games)

I love the fact that he kept his style without imitating John Williams, but using the same atmospheres (which I think is a big challenge)


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## CT (May 21, 2021)

I really desperately suggest that this is not the place to debate about certain things, and that no one here is properly equipped to do so in a meaningful way even if it were....


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## Baronvonheadless (May 21, 2021)

Mike T said:


> I really desperately suggest that this is not the place to debate about certain things, and that no one here is properly equipped to do so in a meaningful way even if it were....


Yeah, I agree with this sentiment.
I also believe melodies, once out of a head and brought to either paper or player, are public domain to be ingested and can be talked about without talking about the writer.


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## gtrwll (May 21, 2021)

gtrwll said:


> I was under the impression that Inon Zur is writing the music for TES VI. I could be wrong, it was a VGMA event I attended last year where he was talking.


Bah, turns out my memory was wrong. He was talking about TES: Blades, not TES VI.


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## Composer 2021 (May 21, 2021)

WhiteNoiz said:


> I think the HP games are mostly live after the 3rd or 4th one, but I could be wrong. I'd posted an example here from the first one. It's possible it was a mix even then or maybe they selectively recorded the most "important" stuff, like the theme.
> 
> Comparison (again, not entirely sure, just guessing):
> 
> ...


The HP games are a real orchestra for all but the first one. And many highlights from the first one were recorded with an orchestra and released on the now-unpurchaseable soundtrack album.


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## Jish (May 21, 2021)

Brasart said:


> Soule *LITERALLY SAID* sex inspired his music, his sound.
> Please stop burying your head into the sand guys.


From what I understand, that came from one of the accusers- meaning it's not quoted anywhere from Soule directly; it's not burying one's head in sand to know that ain't the same thing, it just isn't.

This is why I tend on the opinion with what chibear said-- I remember reading that blog well over a year ago now when the story broke, and frankly just the syntax of the writing at times was concerning to me- was everything written actually true (i.e. the 'sex' part)? And what was the full context, ect. For me there isn't a shadow of doubt wrong _was_ done, but making a hard determination to the extent of it? Sorry, but just not enough there legally at the moment to throw him under the bus altogether, it's skipping a few too many steps with regards to long-adhered process. As said previous, if thing's develop further and the extent/degree of guilt becomes serious charges (maybe convictions) then of course he should suffer the consequences.



gtrwll said:


> Bah, turns out my memory was wrong. He was talking about TES: Blades, not TES VI.


Yeah, I think right now it's just Blades- however, I actually do suspect they will replace Soule for VI and likely use Inon and call it a day as thing's stand now- remember the kerfuffle at the time around the 'Tracer' character's pose from Overwatch that was later changed? The more I think about it is exceedingly unlikely Jeremy Soule will be back to score any Bethesda game, but I guess time will tell more on all this.



Mike T said:


> I really desperately suggest that this is not the place to debate about certain things, and that no one here is properly equipped to do so in a meaningful way even if it were....


At this point, I regret replying to Alex's comment re the 'remiss' remark, given what it's mostly drudged up but at the time I was irked that on a thread devoted pretty much entirely to JS' sound people still apparently felt the need to chime in and make known their stance specifically regarding the allegation's referenced directly on the other thread. Ah well, water beneath the bridge hopefully.


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## dcoscina (Aug 19, 2021)

Three words: Listen to Bruckner.


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## Henu (Aug 19, 2021)

Three words: Any particular pieces?


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## Jish (Aug 19, 2021)

Joulupukki said:


> Opinions differ a bit about Jeremy Soule. Some consider him to be the John Williams of game music, for others he only delivers boring cadences.


Yeah, but similar things have been said of many top artists- Williams has his detractors as well, trust me I've spoken to a few in person and online that think he's more or less been a bombastic hack for 45+ years (and they seldom go into detail, here- just 'don't like' the music). It get's magnitudes worse at times when Zimmer's own name is brought up (on occasion, here). 

In reality, I think closer to the truth is that two things occurred within relatively close proximity of one another- the assault allegations and the debacled release of _The_ _Northerner- _prior to this, outside of the fraction of a percent outliers such as myself that heard an alleged personal anecdote regarding Soule, there appeared relatively minor criticism regarding his music either in the musical space, _or_ the public space- and that is something few composers ever get to enjoy for any extended period of time. It's worth noting specifically because of just how rare it is, and pretty much always has been.


Joulupukki said:


> but I have to admit that he is unbeatable in creating a lot of atmosphere with just a few notes regardless of the libraries used. My deepest respect for that! But that means in software context "if you really want to sound like Soule, forget software, you have to be just as proficient in the craft (...if you want to achieve more than just simulating his pieces as closely as possible). Everyone knows buying an expensive library is no substitute for talent". Okay, that's not new and i'm not the great composer to give advice here but... it just seems to me that beginners often have a slightly wrong idea. I don't mean anyone specifically here in this forum, that is my impression in general when it comes to "wanting to sound like someone" without having the technical know-how.


Yeah, I kind of get (I think) what you are expressing here, but it also sort of contradicts what you said earlier in the thread regarding using specific older libraries for the Morrowind/Oblivion stuff (and you never posted examples- _shame ). _Looking back a bit later, Mike on page 1 had the hands down best line: "He has a strong musical and aesthetic voice which is always clear regardless of what tools are being used, whether in 2002 or 2020." This, I think is what you are getting at?


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## becolossal (Aug 19, 2021)

Jish said:


> Yeah, but similar things have been said of many top artists- Williams has his detractors as well, trust me I've spoken to a few in person and online that think he's more or less been a bombastic hack for 45+ years (and they seldom go into detail, here- just 'don't like' the music).


<s> How edgy </s>.


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## Jish (Aug 19, 2021)

becolossal said:


> <s> How edgy </s>.


He's had his own subset of critics since like the late 70's early 80's- it's actually kind of stunning how some in the more 'academic' spaces did such a poor job at elucidating _why _they think he's a hack/fraud/whatever. The two words that used to get thrown around often then were, 'busy' and 'trite'. All the time those two words: 'now here's your p.h.d' lol.

re-peat on here has done a far better job explaining his various thoughts on Williams over the years than the blanket criticisms of a heck of a lot of others way back then.


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## CT (Aug 19, 2021)

Three words: listen to miket.


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## JDK88 (Aug 19, 2021)

I don't get caught up on technicals. What effect did the composer have on the world? Did they make it better or worse?


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## dcoscina (Aug 19, 2021)

Henu said:


> Three words: Any particular pieces?


Any one of his Nine Symphonies. He wasn’t terribly prolific but he wrote really long works.


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## Baronvonheadless (Aug 19, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Three words: Listen to Bruckner.


So, this comment led me to this piece and I'm very grateful/inspired. Not familiar with him, now I'll be researching heavily.


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## fish_hoof (Aug 19, 2021)

This is probably already been said, but the fact that his scores, including Skyrim (minus the viking vocals in the main theme) ... are all sample libraries, is unreal to me. Every time I listen to Skyrim, whether you like his music or not, his skills for programming are spectacular.


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## CT (Aug 19, 2021)

Yes, it was the first time I felt any hope for working with VIs, that it could be something artistic in its own right and not just a grudging compromise. It's still a standard for me, what motivates me to keep going with this stuff.


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## KEM (Aug 19, 2021)

fish_hoof said:


> This is probably already been said, but the fact that his scores, including Skyrim (minus the viking vocals in the main theme) ... are all sample libraries, is unreal to me. Every time I listen to Skyrim, whether you like his music or not, his skills for programming are spectacular.



Skyrim is massively influential to me, I have well over 1k hours on it and I don’t plan to ever stop playing it. When I found out it was all samples my mind was just blown away, Jeremy really is a master of this craft, I really hope things work out and he does TES6


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## muziksculp (Aug 19, 2021)

fish_hoof said:


> This is probably already been said, but the fact that his scores, including Skyrim (minus the viking vocals in the main theme) ... are all sample libraries, is unreal to me. Every time I listen to Skyrim, whether you like his music or not, his skills for programming are spectacular.


I didn't know that. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I love his Skyrim soundtrack, and if that is produced using only sample libraries, that's very impressive. I wonder what libraries he relies on in his productions ?


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## CT (Aug 19, 2021)

Mostly his own.


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## fish_hoof (Aug 19, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I didn't know that. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I love his Skyrim soundtrack, and if that is produced using only sample libraries, that's very impressive. I wonder what libraries he relies on in his productions ?


Yea, he has become my gold standard for sample library music writing for me. I listen to his stuff every day, and while my music doesn't sound anything like his... I believe it helps listening to his music knowing its sampled, as I feel that will help a person out when writing.


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## muziksculp (Aug 19, 2021)

fish_hoof said:


> Yea, he has become my gold standard for sample library music writing for me. I listen to his stuff every day, and while my music doesn't sound anything like his... I believe it helps listening to his music knowing its sampled, as I feel that will help a person out when writing.


Has he posted, or made it public on any media that he uses his own custom made sample libraries ?


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## EpicMusicGuy (Aug 19, 2021)

KEM said:


> Skyrim is massively influential to me, I have well over 1k hours on it and I don’t plan to ever stop playing it. When I found out it was all samples my mind was just blown away, Jeremy really is a master of this craft, I really hope things work out and he does TES6


6k hours in Guild Wars 2  
Good thing like half is AFK'ing in the city
It's also Jeremy Soule soundtrack (the main game before the expansion is at least)
I might be biased, but besides the main soundtrack of skyrim, GW2 soundtrack is much better imo

Here's some of my favorites


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## Jish (Aug 19, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Has he posted, or made it public on any media that he uses his own custom made sample libraries ?


It's kind of been available info well over a decade ago for those that are actually interested enough to search and find out on their own. One can guestimate further only by listening that some of these sounds/samples have been hanging around in his template for quite a while.

As for what he has been using in say, closer to the past five years? A bit less obvious- he used to respond to emails I remember, going back to the Oblivion 2006-ish period and maybe before/after. Jeez, time zips right on by...


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## CT (Aug 19, 2021)

I would say his homemade arsenal has certainly grown in recent years.


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## Baronvonheadless (Aug 19, 2021)

These three pieces will stick with me forever as far as musical masterpieces within video games. Not necessarily in a music theory traditional masterpiece sense, but a scoring masterpiece. What it invoked and in relation to the world it took place in. & how it amplified/suited the level you were at in the story, mood it set, and replay-ability value (not tiring of hearing it)


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## Joulupukki (Aug 23, 2021)

Jish said:


> … but it also sort of contradicts what you said earlier in the thread regarding using specific older libraries for the Morrowind/Oblivion stuff …


Where exactly do you see a contradiction? My comment on what I use (old stuff) for certain purposes does not contradict the fact that the latest state of the art libs do not replace talent. The former comment relates to my work equipment in certain cases (to hit the sound from a more technical point of view), the latter relates to the theoretical expectation of some beginners (means the theoretical knowledge to be able to generate such music and the misconception that enough money for a first class library would make missing talent no longer a problem (something like the SF Skyrim Strings with integrated Soule Score Generator). If you can neither generate the sound (because the libraries with the specific sound are no longer available) nor scores like Soule (because you do not have the talent) you can forget the reminiscence subject. But... maybe we just misunderstood each other 

And thanks for the reminder. When I'm back on site I'll look through the hard drives for appropriate examples. Unfortunately such things are not in the cloud otherwise it would be easier and I could do it from home (we are in the middle of the school- /summer holidays and on the road).


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## fish_hoof (Aug 23, 2021)

Joulupukki said:


> "Unreal" maybe because it is at least not true afaik. I had repeatedly read in interviews that he used at least soloists (for a high degree of authenticity).


Soule himself said it was samples numerous times on social media. So… perhaps he’s lying, but I’ve never seen any footage of him session recording.


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## Manakin Skywalker (Aug 23, 2021)

I'm not sure what he's used more recently, but I do know for a fact that in the early 2000's he used Garritan Personal Orchestra. KOTOR is even listed in their repertoire on the Garritan site. He also wrote a sample that was up on the main page but seems to have been removed within the last year.


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## CT (Aug 23, 2021)

Wouldn't say primarily, but yeah that was a big one back at that time.


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## Joulupukki (Aug 23, 2021)

fish_hoof said:


> Soule himself said it was samples numerous times on social media. So… perhaps he’s lying, but I’ve never seen any footage of him session recording.


Nah, lying is such an ugly word ... you don't have to think in extremes right away. There is a lot of truth and untrue (whether intentionally or unintentionally does not matter) to be found in social networks, unfortunately Jeremy won't tell us how he actually recorded the skyrim music. Maybe my info is wrong ... that's why I said afaik


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## fish_hoof (Aug 23, 2021)

Joulupukki said:


> Nah, lying is such an ugly word ... you don't have to think in extremes right away. There is a lot of truth and untrue to be found in social networks, unfortunately Jeremy won't tell us how he actually recorded the sykrim music.


Well… when Jeremy was active on Twitter and his Patron, we heard from the man himself. So I don’t think he was lying and spoke about Skyrim.


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## Joulupukki (Aug 26, 2021)

Jish said:


> One can guestimate further only by listening that some of these sounds/samples have been hanging around in his template for quite a while.


At the time of TES III and Dungeon Siege he was using computers with Emagic Logic 4.7.3 and Nemesys Gigastudio 160 (later Tascam Gigastudio). You can still find a product description on Sweetwater and see which libraries were available for 160 back then (period around 2002)


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## rlundv (Nov 26, 2021)

A bit late to the discussion, but I've made a mockup-walkthrough of "Far Horizons", thought it could be interesting for readers of this thread.


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## Mario45 (Feb 17, 2022)

Joulupukki said:


> To reproduce the Morrowind / Guild Wars sound (if that is requested), I simply use GOS strings, GPO and/or Westgate winds, GPO and/or SI brass and GPO/VIR2 percussion. Nothing more is needed. IMO high-quality newer libraries don't capture the original 2002/2005 Soule vibe. For uh and ah choir sounds I use also outdated products. Oblivion is a different pair of shoes as Soule stated in interviews at the time that he used his own orchestral product and partially real musicians. But from today's perspective it is not of much higher quality than Morrowind.


What company is "GOS" I've never heard of this before. I'm relatively new to sample libraries so if you could tell me or send me a link to the library it would be greatly appreciated!


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## CT (Feb 17, 2022)

Mario45 said:


> What company is "GOS" I've never heard of this before. I'm relatively new to sample libraries so if you could tell me or send me a link to the library it would be greatly appreciated!


Garritan Orchestral Strings.


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## Mario45 (Aug 2, 2022)

Very late to the discussion but I've been working on recreating the track "Aurora" from the Skyrim soundtrack, any tips to improve it?


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## Lionel Schmitt (Aug 2, 2022)

Can someone link a Soule piece they find particularly impressive mockup wise? I haven't heard anything impressive yet, except that he mixes his orchestra in a way that makes it muddy/verby and thus hard to make out much programming wise. 
Reverb is a great blanket for bad programming


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## KEM (Aug 2, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> Can someone link a Soule piece they find particularly impressive mockup wise? I haven't heard anything impressive yet, except that he mixes his orchestra in a way that makes it muddy/verby and thus hard to make out much programming wise.
> Reverb is a great blanket for bad programming



Personally I love his ethereal reverb sound, it’s definitely his staple and I think he writes in a way that leans into it very well, Skyrim is a huge part of my life and I love every piece of music in it. I don’t know if “muddy” is the right word since it sounds very intentional, I wouldn’t at all say he’s trying to hide bad programming, in fact I’ve always heard quite the opposite, that his music is among the best examples of how good samples can sound, and I’d agree


----------



## CT (Aug 2, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> Can someone link a Soule piece they find particularly impressive mockup wise? I haven't heard anything impressive yet, except that he mixes his orchestra in a way that makes it muddy/verby and thus hard to make out much programming wise.
> Reverb is a great blanket for bad programming


It's quite easy to hear when someone is trying to hide sloppy programming with lots of reverb. That's not the case here, but if you're looking for extremely agile/virtuosic music as proof of "impressive" programming, he just doesn't do a ton of that. 

What's impressive to me about his simple and/or slow moving music is the continuity of expression, even with older limited VIs, which I actually think can be harder to pull off than more flashy stuff. Perhaps it's just not your thing.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Aug 2, 2022)

Guy I just asked for particularly impressive examples haha, maybe I didn't listen to the best tracks or bad youtube quality. I just haven't found tracks pointed out particularly for their mockup quality in this thread so could be good to hear specific examples rather than digging through low quality youtube mashups.
I didn't say he mixes that way to hide bad programming, just that it a verby sound CAN do that and the ambient sound is the biggest thing that I noticed in his works, rather than expressive programming


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## CT (Aug 2, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> I just haven't found tracks pointed out particularly for their mockup quality in this thread


I think most of those in this thread are from older projects, which had more reliance on stuff by VSL and other earlier libraries which do date the overall sound a bit.

These, from 2011, are maybe not as marked by such recognizably "old" virtual instruments.


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## KEM (Aug 2, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> I think most of those in this thread are from older projects, which had more reliance on stuff by VSL and other earlier libraries which do date the overall sound a bit.
> 
> These, from 2011, are maybe not as marked by such recognizably "old" virtual instruments.




Far Horizons was exactly what I was gonna post, such an incredibly piece of music!!


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## becolossal (Aug 2, 2022)

KEM said:


> Far Horizons was exactly what I was gonna post, such an incredibly piece of music!!


It’s quintessential Skyrim for me. Still one of my favorite games of all time.


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## KEM (Aug 2, 2022)

becolossal said:


> It’s quintessential Skyrim for me. Still one of my favorite games of all time.



Easily!! I have well over 2,000 hours played and I still go back to it frequently, I don’t think I will ever get tired of Skyrim


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## ned3000 (Aug 2, 2022)

My analysis of Jeremy Soule tracks has always led to the same conclusion: good writing.


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## Baronvonheadless (Aug 2, 2022)

I love the music of knights of the old republic, mostly a lot of it is nostalgic but the writing is really good. Not crazy amazing, but just has this caning vibe. Perfect for the type of rpg it was. Especially the music on Taris. 

It was engrained in me. It’s the kind of cam music that takes you back to when you first heard it. It’s rare when music doesn’t just remind you of a time, but can place you there again.


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## Scamper (Aug 3, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> Can someone link a Soule piece they find particularly impressive mockup wise? I haven't heard anything impressive yet, except that he mixes his orchestra in a way that makes it muddy/verby and thus hard to make out much programming wise.


I get what you mean, Soule is not quite the pinnacle, when it comes to mockups, but for his style, I think it's great and all it needs to be. What I like about his mockups the most, is that it sounds very cohesive.

There are also some great tracks in Guild Wars 2.



It's probably still mainly his writing, which makes it all sound great without pushing the mockups to the limit. Given that he mostly writes in this airy and ethereal style, it's also quite remarkable, that the compositions and melodies are yet so memorable and unique.


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## Scamper (Aug 3, 2022)

Here is something else, some Soule music, which I just recently discovered.
It's from the EverQuest Online Adventures (2003) soundtrack - in this case live, no mockup.

Check out the first piece, first 3 minutes. It's really good stuff and makes me wonder how the Northerner Symphony would have turned out.


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## Composer 2021 (Aug 3, 2022)

The Skyrim soundtrack sounds excellent for a sampled orchestra from 2011!


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## Tempfram (Aug 3, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> Can someone link a Soule piece they find particularly impressive mockup wise? I haven't heard anything impressive yet, except that he mixes his orchestra in a way that makes it muddy/verby and thus hard to make out much programming wise.
> Reverb is a great blanket for bad programming


What about the two in the OP?


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## JDK88 (Aug 3, 2022)

I like this one.


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## MartinH. (Aug 3, 2022)

JDK88 said:


> I like this one.



One of my favorite game soundtracks, but the soundtrack is a recording of a real orchestra, not a mockup.


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## JDK88 (Aug 3, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> One of my favorite game soundtracks, but the soundtrack is a recording of a real orchestra, not a mockup.


Is that a bad thing?


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## MartinH. (Aug 3, 2022)

JDK88 said:


> Is that a bad thing?


Absolutely not, I just wanted to clarify since I thought the ongoing discussion was about his mockup skills with virtual orchestras.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Aug 10, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> I think most of those in this thread are from older projects, which had more reliance on stuff by VSL and other earlier libraries which do date the overall sound a bit.
> 
> These, from 2011, are maybe not as marked by such recognizably "old" virtual instruments.



Oh yea. thanks. I see, there is something cohesive and expressive in this mockups that's quite rare, especially in 2011.
I already heard Far Horizons but it must have been a bad quality file or youtube upload since the stereo image and everything else was totally butchered.


Scamper said:


> I get what you mean, Soule is not quite the pinnacle, when it comes to mockups, but for his style, I think it's great and all it needs to be. What I like about his mockups the most, is that it sounds very cohesive.
> 
> There are also some great tracks in Guild Wars 2.
> 
> ...



Same here, thanks.
He does have a unique touch writing wise, I think some of it is the richness and thick harmonization/orchestration which doesn't leave most of the instruments too exposed to reveal their sampedness


Tempfram said:


> What about the two in the OP?


There weren't referred to for their mockup quality though, that came up some time later in the thread so I was just curious about good examples for that in particular


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## Tempfram (Aug 15, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> There weren't referred to for their mockup quality though, that came up some time later in the thread so I was just curious about good examples for that in particular


Can you educate me on the difference?


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## Lionel Schmitt (Aug 16, 2022)

Tempfram said:


> Can you educate me on the difference?


Is it really that important that I didn't consider the pieces you posted in your OP? This discussion is a like a month old so not sure why I have to respond now still.
There was no reference to the quality of the mockups (programming, tasteful library usage and mixing in my definition) in the OP, just a question about the overall sound, which could mean everything including sounding unrealistic.

I'll sign off and hope someone says something cool about the Jeremy Soule sound which is the topic


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## Kony (Aug 16, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> sounding unrealistic


I think that's the point though - what is a realistic Jeremy Soule sound? Can it be pigeon-holed or is it a bit diverse in terms of tracks using mainly samples, or orchestra, or a mix, and how much reverb is used etc?


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## AceAudioHQ (Aug 16, 2022)

KEM said:


> Easily!! I have well over 2,000 hours played and I still go back to it frequently, I don’t think I will ever get tired of Skyrim


Tried in VR?


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## Lionel Schmitt (Aug 16, 2022)

Kony said:


> I think that's the point though - what is a realistic Jeremy Soule sound? Can it be pigeon-holed or is it a bit diverse in terms of tracks using mainly samples, or orchestra, or a mix, and how much reverb is used etc?


was just part a point not a comment about his sound directly. I personally don't really care about realism and more expression and depth of sound, which he achieves well. Doesn't strike me as being aimed at realism.


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## gussunkri (Aug 16, 2022)

Lately I've been rediscovering the Oblivion soundtrack. It is so nice! There is a solo woodwind on very many of the cues playing in the high register. I love how that sounds. So smooth.That is a clarinet right?

EDIT: Ok, I should probably add some clips.


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## The Gost (Aug 16, 2022)

The most important thing for me is the music ! realistic or not if there is emotion and talent it is the most important. The rest is just a form of "ideology".... there is a lot of realistic music which is very very boring ! and never forget that plugins don't make music.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 16, 2022)

Jeremy Soule’s form of music is beautiful. I like it a lot.


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## KEM (Aug 16, 2022)

AceAudioHQ said:


> Tried in VR?



I haven’t, the whole VR thing always seemed gimmicky to me but I wouldn’t be opposed to trying Skyrim that way, I’ve watched videos and it looked interesting


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## CT (Aug 16, 2022)

Hi by the way I know a lot about this musical "niche," having spent years learning the ins and outs of it and recently doubling down on the fact that my own stylistic goals as a composer are very closely related, and anyone wanting a composer for this kind of thing should hire me, the world's number one expert: accept no substitutes, no mere imitators, no pesky ongoing controversies to complicate things, call Michaelt!


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## José Herring (Aug 16, 2022)

gussunkri said:


> Lately I've been rediscovering the Oblivion soundtrack. It is so nice! There is a solo woodwind on very many of the cues playing in the high register. I love how that sounds. So smooth.That is a clarinet right?
> 
> EDIT: Ok, I should probably add some clips.



Most definitely opens with and old school sampled clarinet. 
Did we ever figure out what string library was used. It really does sound good. 

Also, there sounds like there's a solo cello over dub or he is one hell of a sample programmer.


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## Jish (Aug 16, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Most definitely opens with and old school sampled clarinet.
> Did we ever figure out what string library was used. It really does sound good.
> 
> Also, there sounds like there's a solo cello over dub or he is one hell of a sample programmer.


I suspect that was likely the old but lovely Garritan Gofriller cello used here- it was used to lovely effect earlier in _Morrowind_ as well.


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## MartinH. (Aug 16, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> Hi by the way I know a lot about this musical "niche," having spent years learning the ins and outs of it and recently doubling down on the fact that my own stylistic goals as a composer are very closely related, and anyone wanting a composer for this kind of thing should hire me, the world's number one expert: accept no substitutes, no mere imitators, no pesky ongoing controversies to complicate things, call Michaelt!



Have you asked the guy who's working on the soundtrack for the next Eldar Scrolls game yet if he needs a ghostwriter?


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## CT (Aug 16, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Did we ever figure out what string library was used. It really does sound good.


Lots of VSL used around time I think. And lots of effort to make it sound not like VSL.


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## AceAudioHQ (Aug 16, 2022)

KEM said:


> I haven’t, the whole VR thing always seemed gimmicky to me but I wouldn’t be opposed to trying Skyrim that way, I’ve watched videos and it looked interesting


VR is awesome at its best, but there are maybe only 20 immersive games for it since most games don't make any profit. My friend is completely obsessed with Skyrim vr 😄


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## Matt Moen (Aug 16, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Most definitely opens with and old school sampled clarinet.
> Did we ever figure out what string library was used. It really does sound good.
> 
> Also, there sounds like there's a solo cello over dub or he is one hell of a sample programmer.


IIRC you'll find the Harp and most of the shorts strings in the Kontakt Factory Library (since it's the old ish VSL samples).


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## Tempfram (Aug 28, 2022)

Since reverb's been mentioned a lot, is that the main ingredient to his sounds? As a general observation, why do the timbre of the individual instruments in game music sound different than in real life? Which steps in the processing chain are the main contributors to that? Like the sound of a string section or a solo woodwind sound in a game track sounds much more 'colorful' and 'exotic' than what these instruments do in a live modern day orchestra.


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## The Gost (Aug 28, 2022)

Tempfram said:


> Since reverb's been mentioned a lot, is that the main ingredient to his sounds? As a general observation, why do the timbre of the individual instruments in game music sound different than in real life? Which steps in the processing chain are the main contributors to that? Like the sound of a string section or a solo woodwind sound in a game track sounds much more 'colorful' and 'exotic' than what these instruments do in a live modern day orchestra.


As for the "reverb's" it is part of the sound but the reverb's does not make the music, .... the live orchestras and the vst are ....more than two different things .....


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## sprt (Oct 29, 2022)

Geeze, I've only found this thread now, good thing it still isn't 'that old'. Some of the stuff that was mentioned before is right, some is *half right*. I've spent some time digging around internet archives a few years ago, so can give you a bit of extra info.

I have some old interview quotes from him saved from some chatlogs, he used to answer questions on some forum.



> Jeremy Soule wrote: Hi Mr. Hickler, Thanks for writing and I’m sorry it took so long to respond. Yes, you heard some Vienna in Oblivion. I blended it with live musicians. There are many great libraries out there now but I like Vienna and highly recommend it. Good luck with your education and eventual career!





> MDesigner: Are your samples still based off Peter Siedlaczek's Advanced Orchestra, and Gary Garritan's Orchestral strings? Have you shopped around & added new samples to your library?
> 
> Jeremy Soule: Everything except our strings are custom built. The strings are from www.gigastrings.com








He used GOS for these: 



There were quite a few old interviews with him and his team, but it's been long so I don't remember the exact details (might come to mind a bit later), but I do remember him saying sometime around the early 00's or late 90's, that they had some 20+ computer system from which he streamed the samples, and that he knows that some people will hate him for it, but he uses / used 'unrealistic' reverb, because he likes it (i think it was phrased as 'too much').

Early 00's:






Basically he was constantly changing up his arsenal, so there could be quite a few differences here and there.

Bonus scene: 


> In 2016, Soule composed the soundtrack for virtual reality game The Gallery. Discussing the project on Facebook, Soule stated that he will "mostly will just work on VR from this point onward if it involves a game. Anything non-VR bores me


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## KEM (Oct 29, 2022)

sprt said:


> Geeze, I've only found this thread now, good thing it still isn't 'that old'. Some of the stuff that was mentioned before is right, some is *half right*. I've spent some time digging around internet archives a few years ago, so can give you a bit of extra info.
> 
> I have some old interview quotes from him saved from some chatlogs, he used to answer questions on some forum.
> 
> ...




Awesome info thank you!! Sucks to hear him say he only wants to do VR though, I want him to do TES6 so bad


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## sprt (Oct 29, 2022)

Ok, found one of the links to the archived questionnaires.



> Could you walk through the typical process you go through when laying strings down. Not so much the compositional process, but the technical process of getting the 'sound' you get from GOS. Things like layering (any other string libraries used?), expression control (CC11), EQ'ing, reverbs, compression, limiting, etc.Thanks for your time.”* Submitted by jubal
> 
> [Jeremy Soule]*
> Well, I've got a fairly conventional template I use that is in score order. For those that don't know what this is (bear with me all of you PhDs), it is merely the order of the instruments as they would appear on a conductor's chart. There are no other strings being used at Artistry Entertainment now. Everything you hear is GOS. I've got the strings split out on a D8B right now across "violins", "viola", "celli" and "basses" so it is a pretty simple setup. My strings tend to be heavier in verb than what you hear in real life. This is a stylistic thing that I do and it helps blend the different types of attacks. I use a Lexicon 300 pretty extensively along with a 960L in some cases. I also have darkened down the violins with a gentle British EQ roll-off. Something like 3.9 db starting in the mid ranges extending upwards. GOS tends to be bright so I took this into account in matching the sound of my ideal synth orchestra with the sound of a live orchestra. I also sometimes add a soft knee compressor to the basses and celli. This helps to focus the sound a bit. Panning is also a piece of cake. My firsts are gently nudged a bit more left than they come out of the box. I also nudge my celli to the right and brightened the celli on a lot of my mixes. Last but not least, I use lots and lots of expression control. Volume, foot, breath, mod...you name it. It's all there. You need all of these things to keep the tone articulation and phrasing musical. I use my lungs, hands and feet simultaneously. It's seems a bit like smoking and riding a motorcycle at the same time--it looks cool but it's easy to crash.



You can read more here:


Jeremy Soule Interviewed. - GigaSampler/Studio User Forums


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## MartinH. (Oct 30, 2022)

@sprt: Thanks a lot for sharing that!



KEM said:


> Awesome info thank you!! Sucks to hear him say he only wants to do VR though, I want him to do TES6 so bad


That ship has sailed, afaik Inon Zur does that one.


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## KEM (Oct 30, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> @sprt: Thanks a lot for sharing that!
> 
> 
> That ship has sailed, afaik Inon Zur does that one.



That’s Fallout and now Starfield, no update on TES yet but it’s always been Soule


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## Tremendouz (Nov 2, 2022)

KEM said:


> That’s Fallout and now Starfield, no update on TES yet but it’s always been Soule


Indeed, but I think it's safe to say that Soule's reputation at this point is ruined due to the allegations (whether true or not, and that's another discussion) so any company hiring him would be risking a PR disaster


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## KEM (Nov 2, 2022)

Tremendouz said:


> Indeed, but I think it's safe to say that Soule's reputation at this point is ruined due to the allegations (whether true or not, and that's another discussion) so any company hiring him would be risking a PR disaster



Also true, but TES6 won’t be coming out for another 4-5 years at least, and the internet has a tendency of moving on from controversy rather quickly…

Not saying that’s a good or bad thing, just that I think most will have forgotten about all that by the time TES6 is actually out, would still be risky though


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## AlexRuger (Nov 2, 2022)

KEM said:


> Also true, but TES6 won’t be coming out for another 4-5 years at least, and the internet has a tendency of moving on from controversy rather quickly…
> 
> Not saying that’s a good or bad thing, just that I think most will have forgotten about all that by the time TES6 is actually out, would still be risky though


There is a 0% chance that people will just forget that someone was accused of sexual assault/rape by not one but two people. His career is over.


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## KEM (Nov 2, 2022)

AlexRuger said:


> There is a 0% chance that people will just forget that someone was accused of sexual assault/rape by not one but two people. His career is over.



Has he worked on anything sense those accusations were made? Genuinely can’t remember


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## Matt Moen (Nov 2, 2022)

KEM said:


> Has he worked on anything sense those accusations were made? Genuinely can’t remember


As producer mostly, last thing i recall was a VR game (might be before the accusations) and a TV documentary.


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## CT (Nov 2, 2022)

He was already off the Bethesda/Elder Scrolls path before other incidents. TES6 will not be him.


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## Baronvonheadless (Nov 3, 2022)

It should be ME. 😎


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