# Public Performance License money on BBC?



## Hannes_F (Aug 26, 2010)

Hi there,

for those that don't know me, I am a strings session player (besides arranging and composing a bit) and have developed a method to overdub myself with violin, viola and cello in order to record not only solo lines but also believeable full string sections. I am not using any samples for this, every track is hand played, between 40 and 60 overdubs (actually it is a lot of work to do so). It is not my aim to replace real orchestras (although the recordings sound actually like a strings orchestra), it is more that I help composers that are only using samples otherwise and open them an approach to the world of real strings by my work.

While my recordings have been published on CDs and aired on TV on several occasions I did not care too much about collecting royalties so far. But now I have been asked to record a substantial share of music for a one hour show that will be aired on BBC1 and the composer asked me to factor in the public performance license money. However neither the GVL (I am based in Germany) nor the PPL was willing to share any information about how much that could be ... because the music has to be aired before, they can't release any numbers etc. etc.

In the case anybody here has some experience with this situation and thinks in this case the money could really be more than say a two-digit amount per broadcast I would be very thankful if he/she could get back to me here or in private. Thank you!

Hannes


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## Hannes_F (Sep 8, 2010)

Hi Guy,

sorry for coming back to this one late, I was busy with gigs and recordings.



Guy Bacos @ Fri Aug 27 said:


> Hannes, I know you said your intention is not to replace an orchestra



Let me be more precise about what I mean. My aim with this project is to provide a stepstone for composers that want to explore the world of live strings as an addition to what they usually do (for example with samples). But I do explicitly _not _want to put orchestras out of business.

That is the reason why I tell my clients that if they have good contact to orchestras or groups of players that they are happy with they should by all means hire them again and not use me just for cutting corners in their budget. As composers and musicians I feel we have a different insight than many producers and it is our obligation to fight for higher overall music budgets, not lower ones, and at every possible occasion.

That being said I am happy if I am booked for recordings that either would not happen otherwise (aspiring composer stepping into the market) or ideally if somebody likes my style and tone and works with me for artistical reasons.



> I'm curious about one thing since you do between 40 to 60 overdubs. One thing I've noticed when experiencing with that in the past whether it's with violins, cellos or voices, is that after a certain number of time over dubbing with the same player, instrument, bow, playing etc it more or less cancels itself, in other words it doesn't sound any richer, just more doubled, so my conclusion was you really need different bodies and instruments to get that rich sound.



You are absolutely right, and this is one of the about ten reasons why overdubbing strings sections normally does not work too well. I have tried a lot of things to overcome that, and while I can not talk about details here I feel I can at least overdub 45 tracks with success. Using multiple instruments is one of the keys here.


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## midphase (Sep 8, 2010)

I'm not clear about your original questions....are you actually composing the music (co-composing), is the composer promising you a cut of the performance royaties in lieu of paying you up front? Or are you talking about union residuals?


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## Hannes_F (Sep 8, 2010)

midphase @ Wed Sep 08 said:


> I'm not clear about your original questions....are you actually composing the music (co-composing), is the composer promising you a cut of the performance royaties in lieu of paying you up front? Or are you talking about union residuals?



Hi,

in this case I am not composing, just performing. Public Performance License money is something that does not apply to the US. However in the UK there is this organisation

http://www.ppluk.com/

and in Germany this one

http://www.gvl.de/

that collect a share of license money for the performers every time a registered track is broadcasted. Interestingly nobody else but the performers can collect this (the composer's and publisher's royalties are something else), so they don't loose any money by that. Worst thing that can happen is that the performers are not registered with the track then the money is simply lost.

However ppluk is currently not able/willing to publish any concrete numbers since it all depends on the actual number of viewers/listeners etc. The german system has been aligned to the british by beginning of this year so they can not tell me any rough numbers from experience either.

Nevertheless thanks for getting back to my question, much appreciated.


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## autopilot (Sep 8, 2010)

If they can't tell you, just assume it'll be very low (which it will) and hopefullly be pleasantly surprised. 

If it doesn't effect the composer he shouldn't worry about it anyway.


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## Dom (Sep 9, 2010)

AFAIK in the UK it depends under what contract the musicians' (not composer's) agreements are done. 

If this is an in-house BBC production then you may well be entitled to performance royalties, but most of the stuff I do these days goes under the PACT agreements, which covers independent production companies producing for BBC and other broadcasters. As far as I know the MU-PACT (Musician's Union- Producers Alliance for Cinema and Television) agreements are complete buy-outs, for one ore more episodes (depending on the rate paid), so no performance royalties are paid. 

But it's a complicated area, and I'm not entirely sure, perhaps somebody will have a clearer idea. In any case the performance royalties are generally quite low, but can add up if you have a successful series or film that's going round the world, or an album that's going gold or platinum. For a one-off transmission it may not be worth the hassle of registration.

Best, Dom


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