# Which Valve Hardware to add life to Digital Sound



## Patrick ** (Jul 13, 2021)

Hello Forum

I’m a composer working with Logic , Kurzweil Keyboard and pianoteq. Predominantly a piano player, I’ve relatively recently moved into the use of plugins, VST etc. I want some hardware to add warmth to the digital sound and don’t know what I need, a valve saturation, pre- amp, compressor or what part of the sound chain they need to go.. or what to spend. I’ve been trying the Arturia 73 Pre-Amp and some Fab-filter plug-ins but feel I’m moving toward a hardware solution. Any advice would be great😊


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Jul 13, 2021)

Manley Vari Mu compressor is a great intro box. Find a used one.


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## rhizomusicosmos (Jul 13, 2021)

If you are using VIs, then I would suggest using Logic's I/O Utility to route audio out of your interface to the hardware unit and back. This assumes your audio interface has the required analogue inputs and outputs:


https://support.apple.com/en-au/guide/logicpro/lgcef2d8c7d2/mac


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## Elephant (Jul 14, 2021)

To OP - It would be much easier for people to give you some guidance if you could expand a bit on where you are hitting the sonics issue - is it during the composing process where the sound is so poor that you are having trouble cranking up the inspiration while listening to the output, or is it in the mixing process where individual tracks sound fine but the overall mix sounds bad ? What instruments are you using ? What type of music ? Giving enough information to help troubleshoot will lead to more appropriate suggestions. What rig do you have, what interface model/version, what monitors, (i.e. the whole chain) in what situations are you getting that "digital" sound ?

What budget do you have for sorting out the sonics issue ?

E


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## re-peat (Jul 14, 2021)

*Patrick*, keep in mind that if you go the hardware route, you have to have a pretty good audio interface that does better-than-average AD/DA conversion, otherwise there's really no point in hooking up an external, warm-sounding valve unit (or anything else, for that matter).
If you only have mediocre 'consumer' AD/DA conversion, any warm, 'un-digital' quality that analog hardware might inject in your sound, will be all but ruined and your audio will sound just as digital as it does today. Might even sound worse.

Also: don't expect too much from external hardware. A device that is able to turn the lifeless, digital sound of a virtual instrument — sampled or modelled — into something truly warm, alive and organic, doesn't exist. Don't let anyone tell you differently.

Years ago, I used to send my digital audio through a Thermionic Culture Fat Bustard for precisely the same reason as why you are now inquiring about such a solution, and while it certainly made things sound different, samples kept sounding like samples and modelled pianos kept sounding like modelled pianos. I still have the Fat Bustard, but I hardly ever use it anymore.

_


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## fakemaxwell (Jul 14, 2021)

If you don't know what hardware you need, you shouldn't be spending any money on it.

The only thing reamping a VST will do to change the sound is adding distortion. You can do that much easier, faster, and cheaper with a plugin. There are tons of saturation plugins to choose from, if you have a multiband saturator use it to target just the low-mid area and see what happens.


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## re-peat (Jul 14, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> The only thing reamping a VST will do to change the sound is adding distortion.



I don’t think that’s true, *fakemaxwell*, and routing the audio from a virtual instrument into hardware and then back into your DAW isn't the same thing at all as “re-amping a VST” either. (Re-amping is something _very different_ actually.)

There’s lots of good reasons to have your audio leave your DAW and make a detour through hardware, and none of them need involve distortion or saturation.

Many people still use hardware EQ’s or hardware compressors (from the creamy vintage stuff to pristine-sounding high-end modern units), and prefer them to anything that’s available as a plugin. Me, I have a hardware Clariphonic and while the difference with the (excellent) software version of that device isn’t all that huge, that difference is there and audible. I’ll also send audio out of my DAW whenever I want to process it with the Anamod ATS-1. (And again, the difference with software tape emulators is audible, as I illustrated with an audio comparison in the tape simulator thread a few weeks ago. If the difference were only negligible, I wouldn’t bother.)

Sending audio through a recording head of a tape or a cassette machine, or even recording it onto tape or cassette, is still a very common practice as well, and its appeal goes *much* further than simply getting some authentic tape saturation into your DAW. Audio that’s been ‘oxydized’ does sound noticeably different from audio which hasn’t (even long before the process starts to distort or saturate the audio).

Many people also still swear by hardware filters — those units that were so popular during the 80’s and 90’s — and will tell you that nothing in the digital realm compares. And I am of the opinion they're right.

And yes, if you want to re-amp your stuff — in case you have a great sounding room, an amplifier the sound of which you like and a (pair of) high-quality microphone(s) —, you leave your DAW as well of course. And re-amping is a technique that needn’t introduce distortion or saturation. It may do so, if that’s what you’re after, but it doesn’t have to. Not if you use quality gear and you know what you’re doing.

But again: a key component in all of this is the AD/DA conversion. If that sucks, or is only average, one might as well forget about everything else as well and safely remain inside the box (unless you wanna use the inferior audio quality of cheap AD/DA conversion creatively).

_


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## lux (Jul 14, 2021)

Agree with Piet on conversion and interface quality, expecially if you want to process the whole mixbus output (but it applies to single tracks as well).

I mean, you can definitely send out your signals through cheap converters into your unexpensive mixer and then back to your daw. That will sure add some kind of "color" to the signal you're getting back. Problem here is what you end up making of your colored signal, expecially if your color doesn't add value to your mix and you loose lots of quality/details in the conversion process.

A bit different if youre using parallel mode processing. Then you can care a bit less of your conversion process as your signal is supposed to be dirty, squeezed, distorted, bassy, edgy or whatever color you'd add to your original recording. But, again, the question is: does the parallel track add value to your original one when layered together? does it worth the effort of sending out, wiring, recording back when compared to ITB most recent plugins (perhaps used in parallel mode as well)? There's no easy answer to this, and it depends on the color you're after. 

Just make sure that your outgear chain and signal conversion is at least good as the hardware you're planning to buy.


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## fakemaxwell (Jul 14, 2021)

re-peat said:


> I don’t think that’s true, *fakemaxwell*, and routing the audio from a virtual instrument into hardware and then back into your DAW isn't the same thing at all as “re-amping a VST” either. (Re-amping is something _very different_ actually.)


I'm not sure what else to call it when you take a line level signal, drop the level down to mic level, place that into a pre-amplifier, and then amplify it back up to line level. 

The initial question was "should I use a hardware preamp, saturator, or compressor to warm up my VST tracks?". Since the OP isn't even sure what piece of gear to use to create this effect, I see no reason to not stay in the box with the absolute boatload of available saturators and compressors available as plugins.

Sure, you're completely right that if you want to be sending things in and out through multiple A/D convertors, you should have some quality gear. I don't believe that any of that is steering Patrick in the right direction.


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## Patrick ** (Jul 14, 2021)

rhizomusicosmos said:


> If you are using VIs, then I would suggest using Logic's I/O Utility to route audio out of your interface to the hardware unit and back. This assumes your audio interface has the required analogue inputs and outputs:
> 
> 
> https://support.apple.com/en-au/guide/logicpro/lgcef2d8c7d2/mac


Thanks so much


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## Patrick ** (Jul 14, 2021)

Elephant said:


> To OP - It would be much easier for people to give you some guidance if you could expand a bit on where you are hitting the sonics issue - is it during the composing process where the sound is so poor that you are having trouble cranking up the inspiration while listening to the output, or is it in the mixing process where individual tracks sound fine but the overall mix sounds bad ? What instruments are you using ? What type of music ? Giving enough information to help troubleshoot will lead to more appropriate suggestions. What rig do you have, what interface model/version, what monitors, (i.e. the whole chain) in what situations are you getting that "digital" sound ?
> 
> What budget do you have for sorting out the sonics issue ?
> 
> E


Hi Thank you so much for your detailed reply. I use a macpro 2017, Roland Super Audio Dac, pianoteq, Fabfilter reverb, a Kurzweil 88key workstation, decent audio technica Headphones and Logic Pro. I compose using pianoteq and am an improvising musician and composer with a background of classical training and jazz. The main issue is getting a warmth of sound back through my DAC when using pianoteq (in Logic) to compose, as I can be working up to three/ four hours a day and the sound begins to grate. Thanks


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## Patrick ** (Jul 14, 2021)

Patrick ** said:


> Hi Thank you so much for your detailed reply. I use a macpro 2017, Roland Super Audio Dac, pianoteq, Fabfilter reverb, a Kurzweil 88key workstation, decent audio technica Headphones and Logic Pro. I compose using pianoteq and am an improvising musician and composer with a background of classical training and jazz. The main issue is getting a warmth of sound back through my DAC when using pianoteq (in Logic) to compose, as I can be working up to three/ four hours a day and the sound begins to grate. Thanks


My budget would be around £200 to £350 for hardware or a good valve plugin solution


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## easyrider (Jul 14, 2021)

Patrick ** said:


> My budget would be around £200 to £350 for hardware or a good valve plugin solution


That’s not really a lot of money for some hardware mojo mate….


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## Elephant (Jul 14, 2021)

OK Patrick - no problem - with that extra information here are some pointers as to possible routes to explore. Bear in mind there will be no one definitive answer - there will be a number of ways of hitting this off.

That fact you are dealing with a very limited budget need not stop you achieving your objective of getting a piano sound that does not grate after 4 hours. I am almost certain you will be able to sort this out.

Perhaps you can post what version number of Pianoteq you are using, and the name of the patch you prefer. Can you also post the full model name and spec of the interface, ideally with a link to the product page, and let us know how many free inputs and outputs it has. Also confirm which version of Logic you are using. Lastly can you post the exact model number of the headphones. The specifics of these things might be important. Then, have a think about the following question - do you have any other vst pianos (like some of the ones in Logic, which comes with a slew of them) that you can try for 3 or 4 hours without it grating ? Why did you decide to get Pianoteq in the first place ? Which others did you trial at the time (when was it ?) and why did you reject them ? Have you tried using the bandpass filter in Logic to try the old trick of sweeping a bandpass peak through the frequencies till you find the most offensive frequency, and then turning the peak into a notch at the same frequency to cut out the offending frequency ?

If there are other vst instruments that you can use without them grating after 4 hours, then that means there are no problems with the interface and phones for your purposes, just with Pianoteq. Similarly if you can listen to well recorded music on that system for 4 hours without it grating. Try that as well. Try and think about a reference recording that has the kind of piano sound tou are shooting for.

BTW, as easyrider points out, trying to sort this out with hardware is going to be tough to impossible for you, and in any case as piet notes, is not necessarily going to achieve the result. The cheapest valve/tube compressor I am aware of comes in at about double your budget, and we don't yet know whether you have enough inputs and outputs on your interface to use it as a hardware insert in any case.

I suggest we take it step by step. The reason I asked you for the exact models (including any letters at the end) is that especially with headphones, some models are known to be spiky and might grate even when listening to well recorded music for 4 hours.

Post back when you can, with the answers to the questions. If you don't know how to do the filter trick, leave that one for now. Once we know what is causing the issue, the solution will become apparent ! A bit of troubleshooting is always better than rushing to buy something. 

E


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## dgburns (Jul 14, 2021)

Agree with @re-peat. I would investigate the plugin world before venturing into hardware territory. Things like Soundtoys, Kush, Kazrog, Waves Abbey Road, and even UA. My philosophy has gravitated towards using hardware on the way in, then staying digital from there.
A sleeper is the tape emulations from McDsp. Try some transformer plugins, the Kush stuff is excellent. Also, try the Logic stock plugins, there are some gems in there.


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## rhizomusicosmos (Jul 14, 2021)

@Patrick ** Is this your interface?








Roland - Super UA | USB Audio Interface


Super UA: USB Audio Interface - Audiophile-Grade Interface for Mac and PC




www.roland.com





I tend to agree with @Elephant, it would be good to narrow down what precisely is lacking/grating in your setup and then target the solution at that. 

If it is the Pianoteq sound, then try to find out what aspects of it need changing both aesthetically and technically. Perhaps some corrective EQ is a cheaper option that is already available to you.

If it is the headphones, for example, then demo a different pair or try the Sonarworks free trial to see if that might improve things. I have a pair of Audio Technica MSR7s I occasionally use for tracking and they benefit greatly from correction.








SoundID Reference - Speaker & Headphone Calibration


Create with full confidence in sound with speaker & headphone calibration software SoundID Reference. Already trusted by over 100'000 studios globally.




www.sonarworks.com


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## sumskilz (Jul 15, 2021)

Patrick ** said:


> My budget would be around £200 to £350 for hardware or a good valve plugin solution


Your budget isn't at all realistic for hardware. These would be quality low budget options (especially if you're handy with a soldering iron): https://www.diyrecordingequipment.com/collections/colour


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## re-peat (Jul 15, 2021)

*Patrick*, I don’t know which version of Pianoteq you have, but in case you’re working with either Stage or Standard, and seeing now that the main goal of this entire inquiry is, basically, to find a way to improve Pianoteq’s timbre and sound, I would strongly, very strongly, suggest that the best move you can make, is to upgrade to the Pro version of the software. As an investment, that upgrade will give you a LOT more returns than any valve processing — real (hardware) or simulated (plug-in) — ever can. And it’s cheaper too.

If you’re spending that much time with Pianoteq as you do, you really ought to be working with the Pro version, in my opinion. The difference with Stage and Standard, especially with regard to timbral tweaking, is difficult to overestimate.

(If you’re working with Pro already, you can ignore this entire post.)

Perhaps you’re one of those people — you’re certainly not alone — who is sensitive to that ‘thing’ in Pianoteq’s acoustic piano timbre that has, over the years, been described as ‘synthetic’, ‘digital’, ‘plastic’, ‘cold’, etc. The problem is: that ‘thing’ won’t disappear by sending Pianoteq through a real or a virtual valve. Doing so won’t reduce it one bit. It won’t even go away if you send Pianoteq through the most expensive chain of desirable, warm-sounding hardware you can imagine. And you can’t EQ it out either. Because it’s not a characteristic that lives on the surface of the sound (which would make it relatively easy to correct, mask or remove altogether), but rather something that is an integral part of the core timbre, so to speak. It’s something deeply nested in the complex algorithmic design of the sound. In a nutshell: that complexity is not complex enough yet. Hence that occasional hint of lifeless sterility which a number of people are put off by. (While others aren’t bothered by it in the least.)

If the solution were as simple as sending Pianoteq’s output through a virtual valve or saturator, trust me, that solution would already have been implemented in the software itself a loooooong time ago. But it’s a much more challenging problem than that, and one which requires something a lot more complex (at the root of where and how the sound is generated) than just a bit of real or virtual analog coating.

I’m confident that the developers will hit upon a true solution in a future version of the software — the history of Pianoteq is one long list of impressive leaps forward, so I have every hope that one of the future leaps will land us exactly where we wanna be —, but until then, you’re best bet, in my opinion, is going Pro. For the single big reason that Pro allows you to do editing and tweaking _on a note level_ and I can’t begin to descibe how powerful a feature that is. Not quite so powerful perhaps that it’ll allow you to completely remove that suggestion of digital sterility in the sound, but definitely powerful enough to make improvements that go much further (and are much more satisfying) than any third-party processing might accomplish.

_


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## Patrick ** (Jul 16, 2021)

re-peat said:


> *Patrick*, keep in mind that if you go the hardware route, you have to have a pretty good audio interface that does better-than-average AD/DA conversion, otherwise there's really no point in hooking up an external, warm-sounding valve unit (or anything else, for that matter).
> If you only have mediocre 'consumer' AD/DA conversion, any warm, 'un-digital' quality that analog hardware might inject in your sound, will be all but ruined and your audio will sound just as digital as it does today. Might even sound worse.
> 
> Also: don't expect too much from external hardware. A device that is able to turn the lifeless, digital sound of a virtual instrument — sampled or modelled — into something truly warm, alive and organic, doesn't exist. Don't let anyone tell you differently.
> ...


Hi re-peat I'm pretty stunned by the level of response on VI Control..this being my first question. Superb advice and support. You've taken me back to the bottom line the recording is only as good as the original source. I'm a professional musician and my main instrument is the piano. I suspect I'm yearning for the quality of my acoustic piano in a digital set up. I know to get a something like a truly decent reverb I'm looking at £2000.00 upwards but I'm just searching for ways to make the sound more liveable when composing by whatever means. My finished records will ideally be done in a studio when that's a more relaxed possibility. My home set up is for the sound of Pianoteq and for rough demo recordings. I us a Roland Super UA. Thanks for your advice.


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## Patrick ** (Jul 16, 2021)

sumskilz said:


> Your budget isn't at all realistic for hardware. These would be quality low budget options (especially if you're handy with a soldering iron): https://www.diyrecordingequipment.com/collections/colour


Hi Sumakilz. Thanks for the link and advice.


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## Patrick ** (Jul 16, 2021)

rhizomusicosmos said:


> If you are using VIs, then I would suggest using Logic's I/O Utility to route audio out of your interface to the hardware unit and back. This assumes your audio interface has the required analogue inputs and outputs:
> 
> 
> https://support.apple.com/en-au/guide/logicpro/lgcef2d8c7d2/mac


Great ..thank you. My DAC would cover this.


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## Patrick ** (Jul 16, 2021)

re-peat said:


> *Patrick*, I don’t know which version of Pianoteq you have, but in case you’re working with either Stage or Standard, and seeing now that the main goal of this entire inquiry is, basically, to find a way to improve Pianoteq’s timbre and sound, I would strongly, very strongly, suggest that the best move you can make, is to upgrade to the Pro version of the software. As an investment, that upgrade will give you a LOT more returns than any valve processing — real (hardware) or simulated (plug-in) — ever can. And it’s cheaper too.
> 
> If you’re spending that much time with Pianoteq as you do, you really ought to be working with the Pro version, in my opinion. The difference with Stage and Standard, especially with regard to timbral tweaking, is difficult to overestimate.
> 
> ...


Hi re-peat. Great advice..thank you. I'm a composer and I do spend hours working with Pianoteq and after a number of years the sound is beginning to grate a little, notwithstanding the superb achievement in creating the software which is very fluid and does play like a piano, unlike a few sampled pianos I've purchased. I've generally been an acoustic player but the ease of Dorico won me over from pen and paper and I'm getting more familiar with software like Spitfire to make basic arrangements. For my final recordings I would veer towards using a pro- studio with acoustic instruments. You went straight to the issue I was raising. I use Pianoteq Stage. I've wondered about the pro version, with the higher sampling rate but according to their site 'All versions offer exactly the same sound and playability but differ in the range of features and settings.' So I had doubts if it would make a difference but your suggestion has made me consider about checking it out again, so thank you.


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## SupremeFist (Jul 16, 2021)

Patrick ** said:


> Hi re-peat I'm pretty stunned by the level of response on VI Control..this being my first question. Superb advice and support. You've taken me back to the bottom line the recording is only as good as the original source. I'm a professional musician and my main instrument is the piano. I suspect I'm yearning for the quality of my acoustic piano in a digital set up. I know to get a something like a truly decent reverb I'm looking at £2000.00 upwards but I'm just searching for ways to make the sound more liveable when composing by whatever means. My finished records will ideally be done in a studio when that's a more relaxed possibility. My home set up is for the sound of Pianoteq and for rough demo recordings. I us a Roland Super UA. Thanks for your advice.



Have you tried one of the high-end piano sample libraries, eg VSL Bösendorfer Imperial or C. Bechstein Digital? Wondrous as Pianoteq is (and I'm sure it or something like it will replace samples eventually), samples still have a more pleasing and realistic timbre.

(PS you don't have to spend £2k to get a good reverb: try Seventh Heaven eg. )


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## Patrick ** (Jul 18, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Have you tried one of the high-end piano sample libraries, eg VSL Bösendorfer Imperial or C. Bechstein Digital? Wondrous as Pianoteq is (and I'm sure it or something like it will replace samples eventually), samples still have a more pleasing and realistic timbre.
> 
> (PS you don't have to spend £2k to get a good reverb: try Seventh Heaven eg. )


Thanks, I'm looking at trying out a few sampled pianos; Ravenscroft may be the first one but as always opinions differ widely. I'm downloading the trial for Seven Heaven


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## Patrick ** (Jul 18, 2021)

dgburns said:


> Agree with @re-peat. I would investigate the plugin world before venturing into hardware territory. Things like Soundtoys, Kush, Kazrog, Waves Abbey Road, and even UA. My philosophy has gravitated towards using hardware on the way in, then staying digital from there.
> A sleeper is the tape emulations from McDsp. Try some transformer plugins, the Kush stuff is excellent. Also, try the Logic stock plugins, there are some gems in there.


Many thanks for the suggestions..I've just downloaded the Soundtoys trial. Looking at options of plugins, hardware and advice to upgrade Pianoteq to pro.


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## Patrick ** (Jul 18, 2021)

lux said:


> Agree with Piet on conversion and interface quality, expecially if you want to process the whole mixbus output (but it applies to single tracks as well).
> 
> I mean, you can definitely send out your signals through cheap converters into your unexpensive mixer and then back to your daw. That will sure add some kind of "color" to the signal you're getting back. Problem here is what you end up making of your colored signal, expecially if your color doesn't add value to your mix and you loose lots of quality/details in the conversion process.
> 
> ...


Apologies for the delay and thanks for the info😃


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## Patrick ** (Jul 18, 2021)

Elephant said:


> OK Patrick - no problem - with that extra information here are some pointers as to possible routes to explore. Bear in mind there will be no one definitive answer - there will be a number of ways of hitting this off.
> 
> That fact you are dealing with a very limited budget need not stop you achieving your objective of getting a piano sound that does not grate after 4 hours. I am almost certain you will be able to sort this out.
> 
> ...


Hi Apologies for the delay in getting back to you and thank you for advice and encouragement. In answer to your questions . I'm using Pianoteq 7, my favourite patches are Bechstein DG Prelude and Bluthner Model One, headphones Beyer-Dynamic BT 880, My DAC is a Roland Super UA https://www.roland.com/uk/products/super_ua/

I've tried Waves Rhapsody which was brash and not hugely responsive and imperfect samples which had download issues and was muddy to use so little other experience of piano VST's; it's been Pianoteq for a while. I saw it online and just decided to give it a try. I have Logic Pro X 10.5.1 with Kontakt 5 and an old, but great, Kurzweil 2500X for playing. As I mentioned , like so many musicians, I'm searching for the best piano-like sound I can get. For me the usage is Dorico and general practise, playing and recording. I've been looking at other sampled pianos and am drawn to Ravenscroft although every sampled piano I check out has diverging opinions as to its merit, I'd value your opinion on this as I feel it may be useful to get another VST for variety. (My Bechstein 10, 1911, leads me to make unfair comparisons) I take onboard your suggestion of Pianoteq Pro and I'll get back to you when I've done your listening suggestions.

Again, thank you for putting in the time in replying to me. 😃


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## Patrick ** (Jul 18, 2021)

Patrick ** said:


> Hi Apologies for the delay in getting back to you and thank you for advice and encouragement. In answer to your questions . I'm using Pianoteq 7, my favourite patches are Bechstein DG Prelude and Bluthner Model One, headphones Beyer-Dynamic BT 880, My DAC is a Roland Super UA https://www.roland.com/uk/products/super_ua/
> 
> I've tried Waves Rhapsody which was brash and not hugely responsive and imperfect samples which had download issues and was muddy to use so little other experience of piano VST's; it's been Pianoteq for a while. I saw it online and just decided to give it a try. I have Logic Pro X 10.5.1 with Kontakt 5 and an old, but great, Kurzweil 2500X for playing. As I mentioned , like so many musicians, I'm searching for the best piano-like sound I can get. For me the usage is Dorico and general practise, playing and recording. I've been looking at other sampled pianos and am drawn to Ravenscroft although every sampled piano I check out has diverging opinions as to its merit, I'd value your opinion on this as I feel it may be useful to get another VST for variety. (My Bechstein 10, 1911, leads me to make unfair comparisons) I take onboard your suggestion of Pianoteq Pro and I'll get back to you when I've done your listening suggestions.
> 
> Again, thank you for putting in the time in replying to me. 😃


Sorry Pianoteq Pro was re-peats suggestion


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## Patrick ** (Jul 18, 2021)

rhizomusicosmos said:


> @Patrick ** Is this your interface?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for your advice. I use Beyer DT 880 which I know can be a sharp at the high end. I'll check out Sonarworks..and yes the Roland Super UA is my DAC.😃


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## Patrick ** (Jul 18, 2021)

re-peat said:


> *Patrick*, I don’t know which version of Pianoteq you have, but in case you’re working with either Stage or Standard, and seeing now that the main goal of this entire inquiry is, basically, to find a way to improve Pianoteq’s timbre and sound, I would strongly, very strongly, suggest that the best move you can make, is to upgrade to the Pro version of the software. As an investment, that upgrade will give you a LOT more returns than any valve processing — real (hardware) or simulated (plug-in) — ever can. And it’s cheaper too.
> 
> If you’re spending that much time with Pianoteq as you do, you really ought to be working with the Pro version, in my opinion. The difference with Stage and Standard, especially with regard to timbral tweaking, is difficult to overestimate.
> 
> ...


Hi Thanks for for the advice, and my apologies, I thought I had replied earlier. I've checked out the pro version and will look at getting this; does the 96hz improvement affect the sound? I do edit parameters but probably need more experience to be effective with this. If Pianoteq developers do find a solution to remove a lot of the digital quality I would be really impressed...how can an instrument made of wood , metal, felt and strings; with its complex acoustic sound be truly represented by a program with such a small memory footprint? I have a couple of piano students who have splashed out respectively £2,500 and £3,500 on electric pianos despite my advice to get a piano ( or a midi keyboard and Pianoteq in the short-term) ..both keyboards strive to produce a 'piano' sound. I believe that electric keyboards, and I've used pro and mid-range gear, should in many ways be treated as a completely different instrument to an acoustic piano despite external appearances. That said I've played some really good keyboards and it's going to be interesting to see where Pianoteq go in the future.


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## sourcefor (Jul 18, 2021)

Get the Rupert Neve 542 tape sim in 500 series! I have it and it adds a lot of analog goodness to the sound when I mix! I also have an outboard compressor that I use when recording drums, vocals, instruments, etc. that gives a bit of character on the way in! Either approach will work but just make sure you have enough inputs and a good converter! Also the Manley vari MU is a great piece I’ve had 4 of them in my life and want it back someday soon! Good luck!


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## rhizomusicosmos (Jul 18, 2021)

Patrick ** said:


> Thanks for your advice. I use Beyer DT 880 which I know can be a sharp at the high end. I'll check out Sonarworks..and yes the Roland Super UA is my DAC.😃


Ah, I use the DT-880 250Ω and 600Ω headphones and Sonarworks neutralises the peaks quite well. At least using the free trial you should be able to rule out whether it's your headphone monitoring that is causing the issue.


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## paulcheeba (Jul 20, 2021)

_The best Plug ins don’t do do valve stuff particularly well, some are okay like acustica but they’re a cpu drain. Plug ins are better at eq and Reverb etc like the aforementioned seventh heaven. I would personally invest in a couple of valve/tube channel strips like Requisite Audio, Tree audio branches or higher end Manley. If you buy used you’ll never lose money._


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Jul 20, 2021)

In America right now, credit is so so so so so cheap that now is the time to buy _expensive_ outboard gear. 4-year 0% interest at less the monthly cost of a Los Angeles DWP bill.

Basically, the bank is gonna buy this shit for you…. Just don’t miss the payments!


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## FireGS (Jul 21, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> In America right now, credit is so so so so so cheap that now is the time to buy _expensive_ outboard gear. 4-year 0% interest at less the monthly cost of a Los Angeles DWP bill.
> 
> Basically, the bank is gonna buy this shit for you…. Just don’t miss the payments!


I'll take a Massive Passive, Maselec MLA-4, Portico II MBP... Bettermaker Mastering Limiter.. anything else? Let's group buy.


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## Patrick ** (Aug 27, 2021)

re-peat said:


> *Patrick*, I don’t know which version of Pianoteq you have, but in case you’re working with either Stage or Standard, and seeing now that the main goal of this entire inquiry is, basically, to find a way to improve Pianoteq’s timbre and sound, I would strongly, very strongly, suggest that the best move you can make, is to upgrade to the Pro version of the software. As an investment, that upgrade will give you a LOT more returns than any valve processing — real (hardware) or simulated (plug-in) — ever can. And it’s cheaper too.
> 
> If you’re spending that much time with Pianoteq as you do, you really ought to be working with the Pro version, in my opinion. The difference with Stage and Standard, especially with regard to timbral tweaking, is difficult to overestimate.
> 
> ...


Hi Re-peat...thanks again for all your advice. I decided to buy 'Ravenscroft 275 'which I'm enjoying to write with..and will probably will look at another sampled option at the higher priced end + Pianoteq pro and ring the changes between them as I can see each has there own advantages.


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## Patrick ** (Aug 27, 2021)

Elephant said:


> OK Patrick - no problem - with that extra information here are some pointers as to possible routes to explore. Bear in mind there will be no one definitive answer - there will be a number of ways of hitting this off.
> 
> That fact you are dealing with a very limited budget need not stop you achieving your objective of getting a piano sound that does not grate after 4 hours. I am almost certain you will be able to sort this out.
> 
> ...


Hi.Thanks again for all your advice. I decided to buy 'Ravenscroft 275 'which I'm enjoying to write with..and will probably will look at another sampled option at the higher priced end + Pianoteq pro and ring the changes between them as I can see each has there own advantages. Also looking at an alternative to my DT880's to get a slightly. warmer tone.


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