# Which Waves Plugins do you use on Orchestral samples?



## CatComposer (Dec 26, 2021)

I'm planning to start experimenting with Waves plugins to make my mixes sound more professional and add more life to my orchestral samples.
Most of my pieces use strings, woodwind, piano, vocal and guitar samples, along with recorded vocals.

I'm not using drums at all.

So which waves plugins should I be considering?

I think a vintage sound would be nice for some of my songs, so the analog emulators are on my radar.
Also, I'm looking for smooth and subtle saturators and compressors.

So I would like to know which Waves plugins you wonderful people have found most helpful for this kind of purpose,
so I can use the trial periods more intelligently.


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## Gerbil (Dec 26, 2021)

I use a bit of Mixcentric to add some sparkle here and there.


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## liquidlino (Dec 26, 2021)

I think there's not really "orchestral" specific plugins, or any genre really. An eq is an eq. A compressor is a compressor. The settings are what matter, and workflow. For channel strip I use SSL channel and Schepps omni channel. H-delay for delay, and shuffler for stereo imaging. Many swear by SSL g bus comp, but I use BUSTer the free plugin. C4 is a good and simple to use multi band compressor. Renaissance eq has nice gentle curves, and nice shelf bumps, which suits orchestral well.

But. Most if not all of these are available elsewhere too, many times for free. H-delay is probably the only one that you can't really get a comparable sounding and easy to use delay.


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## CatComposer (Dec 26, 2021)

Just to add, I have put some thought into this already and come up with a list:

Saturation- one of these:
J37 Tape
Kramer Master Tape
Abbey Road Saturator

EQ: F6 Floating-Band Dynamic EQ

Compressor:
CLA-2A Compressor / Limiter
or Renaissance Compressor

Others:
H-Delay Hybrid Delay
Vitamin Sonic Enhancer
Waves Doubler

All of these seem to be popular in general, 
but as I am working with a very specific style (no drums and mostly acoustic samples),
I'm not sure if I should be considering other plugins.


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## liquidlino (Dec 26, 2021)

For saturation, also demo Phil's cascade from brainworx. Super musical saturation, can get it on sale with a voucher for 15 bucks if you keep your eye out. Same with brainworx SSL channel strip.


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## CatComposer (Dec 26, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> I think there's not really "orchestral" specific plugins, or any genre really. An eq is an eq. A compressor is a compressor.


From what I can tell, drums need a compressor with a fast attack, such as the CLA-76, (50 microseconds) whereas for orchestral samples, you would use a slower attack for smoother compression, such as the CLA-2A.


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## cloudbuster (Dec 26, 2021)

Since you've asked for Waves I really like the TG12345 (my favorite) / Abbey Road Mastering Chain (work great on anything), Scheps Omnichannel, Kramer Tape, Vitamin and F6 for that sort of thing, but then my trusty izotope Alloy 2, SSL channel strips and not at last Nomad Factory British Bundle are always within reach.


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## hessproject (Dec 26, 2021)

Just out of curiosity, is there any reason why waves specifically? They have a pretty predatory "update plan" and for saturation and compression and the likes I would recommend a few others before them


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## liquidlino (Dec 26, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> From what I can tell, drums need a compressor with a fast attack, such as the CLA-76, (50 microseconds) whereas for orchestral samples, you would use a slower attack for smoother compression, such as the CLA-2A.


Oh yes, for sure, there's different types of compressors that suit different musical content (drums vs bass vs pads etc). I use API 2500 from waves quite often for individual drum track processing (i.e. just the snare is a common use, to control the body and tail of the snare). Any "quick" compressor can do the job. Other compressors are better for vocals etc. But... and it's a big but... it takes ages and ages to tune your ear to even be able to hear the difference between different compressors. I'm not sure I can really tell difference between different compressors of the same "class", and only recently could even properly hear what the difference classes of compressors were doing differently. Dan Worrals videos on compressors are really worth watching. In fact, all his videos are massive eye openers about processing in general - eq, compressors, saturation etc.


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## CatComposer (Dec 26, 2021)

hessproject said:


> Just out of curiosity, is there any reason why waves specifically? They have a pretty predatory "update plan" and for saturation and compression and the likes I would recommend a few others before them


As I don't have many high quality effects plugins yet, I could use many of their offerings.
I don't intend to buy them, but rather get one of the subscription plans with a custom 5 pack.

From what I can tell, many of their vocals plugins are unique and have no similar competitors,
but likely to be useful to me.

As I may not be doing this long term, I'm not keen to invest hundreds of dollars into plugins right now.
This way I can 'dabble' in music production without it costing me an arm and leg!


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## hessproject (Dec 26, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> As I don't have many high quality effects plugins yet, I could use many of their offerings.
> I don't intend to buy them, but rather get one of the subscription plans with a custom 5 pack.
> 
> From what I can tell, many of their vocals plugins are unique and have no similar competitors,
> ...


Even as far as subscriptions go, I'd consider something like the plugin alliance essential subscription ($10/month) before waves. Not that Waves plugins are bad of course I use a few of them myself but I'm hesitant to recommend them to others unless there is something really specific you need from them when there are companies offering similar plans without sleazy business tactics. I don't want to derail the thread though of course


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## CatComposer (Dec 26, 2021)

hessproject said:


> Even as far as subscriptions go, I'd consider something like the plugin alliance essential subscription ($10/month) before waves. Not that Waves plugins are bad of course I use a few of them myself but I'm hesitant to recommend them to others unless there is something really specific you need from them when there are companies offering similar plans without sleazy business tactics. I don't want to derail the thread though of course


Yes, I have considered that option, however there are a few reasons that seems unappealing:
1. Waves has a wider spectrum of plugins. The effects seem more creative and interesting to me.
2. Plugin Alliance plugins are mostly analog emulators with too many knobs and a bit intimidating.
The Waves interfaces seem designed more for beginners like me.

By getting a membership (and not purchasing the plugins) I think I'll be avoiding the draconian update policy.


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## José Herring (Dec 26, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> From what I can tell, drums need a compressor with a fast attack, such as the CLA-76, (50 microseconds) whereas for orchestral samples, you would use a slower attack for smoother compression, such as the CLA-2A.


I find drums work better with a slow attack and a fast release. A fast attach compresses the transient and your drums start sounding like a dull thud.


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## liquidlino (Dec 26, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> As I don't have many high quality effects plugins yet, I could use many of their offerings.
> I don't intend to buy them, but rather get one of the subscription plans with a custom 5 pack.
> 
> From what I can tell, many of their vocals plugins are unique and have no similar competitors,
> ...


What DAW are you using? I'd be surprised if your DAW didn't already come with plenty of "high quality" plugins. Honestly, a plugin is a plugin is a plugin. Many pros just use the stock plugins that come with their DAW (logic, ableton, cubase, fl studio etc)


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## liquidlino (Dec 26, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> Yes, I have considered that option, however there are a few reasons that seems unappealing:
> 1. Waves has a wider spectrum of plugins. The effects seem more creative and interesting to me.
> 2. Plugin Alliance plugins are mostly analog emulators.
> I don't find those very intuitive.
> ...


Your reasoning against plugin alliance doesn't make sense - Waves are also emulations of analog mostly. And both have simple to use interfaces - none of which are aimed at "beginners" but more at simple and high speed workflows. For beginners, I'd recommend something a lot more graphical. Watch Dan Worrals video on compression where he uses Fabfilter Compressor, which shows you graphically exactly what is going on at all times. Massively helpful (not suggesting you buy Fabfilter though, that's a huge investment).


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## CatComposer (Dec 26, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Your reasoning against plugin alliance doesn't make sense - Waves are also emulations of analog mostly. And both have simple to use interfaces - none of which are aimed at "beginners" but more at simple and high speed workflows. For beginners, I'd recommend something a lot more graphical. Watch Dan Worrals video on compression where he uses Fabfilter Compressor, which shows you graphically exactly what is going on at all times. Massively helpful (not suggesting you buy Fabfilter though, that's a huge investment).


Someone already suggested "Mixcentric", and Waves has many other plugins like that which cannot be found in Plugin alliance or in my DAW (Studio One).

Yes, they do have some analog emulators, but in general, they are fairly simple with only a few knobs.
Brainworx (as an example) is too daunting for me.


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## hessproject (Dec 26, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> Yes, I have considered that option, however there are a few reasons that seems unappealing:
> 1. Waves has a wider spectrum of plugins. The effects seem more creative and interesting to me.
> 2. Plugin Alliance plugins are mostly analog emulators.
> I don't find those very intuitive.
> ...


I think for the "vintage" sound you are looking for in your OP, analog emulators will go a long way. But in any case, just trying to point you in the right direction for what you're going for, since I don't think there's anything specific to Waves in any of the things you're looking to do. But in any case, some stuff I do use frequently: Scheps Omni, Aphex Exciter, any of the CLAs, RBass, Vocal Rider, X Noise.

For something like Mixcentric (throw on the master channel and leave alone), I'd take a look at Izotopes gold holiday bundle for $50, includes ozone elements


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## liquidlino (Dec 26, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> Someone already suggested "Mixcentric", and Waves has many other plugins like that which cannot be found in Plugin alliance or in my DAW (Studio One).
> 
> Yes, they do have some analog emulators, but in general, they are fairly simple with only a few knobs.
> Brainworx (as an example) is too daunting for me.


Hate to break it to you - the "one-knob" wonder plugins aren't worth the time or money. They're snake oil. At the very least, they require very well mixed inputs (every channel and bus properly eq'd and compressed) before they get to the master bus. There's no magic plugin that will mix and master for you.


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## liquidlino (Dec 26, 2021)

hessproject said:


> I think for the "vintage" sound you are looking for in your OP, analog emulators will go a long way. But in any case, just trying to point you in the right direction for what you're going for, since I don't think there's anything specific to Waves in any of the things you're looking to do. But in any case, some stuff I do use frequently: Scheps Omni, Aphex Exciter, any of the CLAs, RBass, Vocal Rider, X Noise.
> 
> For something like Mixcentric, I'd take a look at Izotopes gold holiday bundle for $50, includes ozone elements


BTW - I'm not arguing against waves, I have plenty of waves and like them a lot. But would I buy them again now I know what I know? Probably not. I'd probably not buy half of my plugins, and just use free stuff. But now I do have them I use them, but they're no better, really.

And for mixcentric, the brainworx equivalent is bx_masterdesk. Which I have (it was given away free recently).


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## DJiLAND (Dec 26, 2021)

I use whatever I need, but I like R-Bass and Vitamin among Waves' unique plugins. But I don't like Waves' upgrade plan, so I use other plugins more. Typical Emulated plug-in tend to use UAD to reduce CPU load even a little.


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## CatComposer (Dec 26, 2021)

cloudbuster said:


> Since you've asked for Waves I really like the TG12345 (my favorite) / Abbey Road Mastering Chain (work great on anything), Scheps Omnichannel, Kramer Tape, Vitamin and F6 for that sort of thing, but then my trusty izotope Alloy 2, SSL channel strips and not at last Nomad Factory British Bundle are always within reach.


Thanks Cloudbuster. That's helpful.


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## CatComposer (Dec 26, 2021)

hessproject said:


> I think for the "vintage" sound you are looking for in your OP, analog emulators will go a long way. But in any case, just trying to point you in the right direction for what you're going for, since I don't think there's anything specific to Waves in any of the things you're looking to do. But in any case, some stuff I do use frequently: Scheps Omni, Aphex Exciter, any of the CLAs, RBass, Vocal Rider, X Noise.
> 
> For something like Mixcentric (throw on the master channel and leave alone), I'd take a look at Izotopes gold holiday bundle for $50, includes ozone elements


Thanks Hess.
I already have the Izotope bundle, and have been using it for a while, but am looking for more variety in experimentation.
Thanks for sharing the plugins you use.


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## CatComposer (Dec 26, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> BTW - I'm not arguing against waves, I have plenty of waves and like them a lot. But would I buy them again now I know what I know? Probably not. I'd probably not buy half of my plugins, and just use free stuff. But now I do have them I use them, but they're no better, really.
> 
> And for mixcentric, the brainworx equivalent is bx_masterdesk. Which I have (it was given away free recently).


I just had a look at Bx Masterdesk - 20 knobs and buttons. 
That's too much of a learning curve for me.
I'm not an audio engineer and would rather spend more time creating music than figuring out a complex plugin like that.


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## CatComposer (Dec 26, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Hate to break it to you - the "one-knob" wonder plugins aren't worth the time or money. They're snake oil.


Perhaps I'm too naive and inexperienced to think I might be able to get some benefit from a simple plugin.
I have found the Fresh Air plugin (by Slate) to be useful, even with just 2 knobs.

And it seems plenty of people use the simple Waves plugins regularly, so they must have some intrinsic value.


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## liquidlino (Dec 26, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> Perhaps I'm too naive and inexperienced to think I might be able to get some benefit from a simple plugin.
> I have found the Fresh Air plugin (by Slate) to be useful, even with just 2 knobs.
> 
> And it seems plenty of people use the simple Waves plugins regularly, so they must have some intrinsic value.


Hey, I hope I haven't offended for any reason? Not trying to... and definitely not calling you naive or inexperienced. Just trying to impart the wisdom of my failures and disappointments so far. But yes - if the plugins work for you, then that's great - and you can demo them all, which is the best thing about all plugins (compared to orchestral libraries that it's a cross your fingers and hope kinda deal, and sadly you get disappointed a lot, and they cost a LOT more than plugins).

If you really want an automatic mixing and mastering solution, have you taken a look at this:









The PROMix Plug-In Bundle


A Truly Powerful Mixing Combination The ProMix Bundle puts some truly incredible mixing power into your hands. The combination of two of the world's most unique plugins, Hyper-EQ "COS Pro v0.5.3" and the Automatic-Mixing-System "Mix Monolith v0.5.1", will instantly enhance your mixes and take...




yurtrock.com





It looks complicated, but it really isn't. If you think about things like iZotope Neutron mix assistant, that only looks at the one channel that it's on. The Yurt solution, the plugs all talk to each other, so they assess where each channel should sit in the mix, and perform that process for you automatically.


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## CatComposer (Dec 26, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Hey, I hope I haven't offended for any reason? Not trying to... and definitely not calling you naive or inexperienced. Just trying to impart the wisdom of my failures and disappointments so far. But yes - if the plugins work for you, then that's great - and you can demo them all


I'm not offended at all.
I'll be the first to admit my inexperience, as I haven't finished producing one song yet (although I'm getting close).

Yes, I could demo them all, however, I was hoping that this thread could help narrow down
the bewildering range of options.


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## cedricm (Dec 26, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> Just to add, I have put some thought into this already and come up with a list:
> 
> Saturation- one of these:
> J37 Tape
> ...


This is a good starting selection. 
I don't know of their subscription model, can you test for a month? 
Alternatively, you can get Horizon for a ridiculously low price.

In my opinion, the Waves Update Plan, given the price, duration and amount of updates, is a racket, but Waves does make excellent plugins, with solid documentations and great presets.

In any case, Waves does sale every other day. Just like with Plugin Alliance, think twice before purchasing any plugins for more that $29.

As a start though, if you use Studio One, Cubase, Logic and so forth, you'd be surprised what you can cover with included plugins.


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## CatComposer (Dec 26, 2021)

cedricm said:


> This is a good starting selection.
> I don't know of their subscription model, can you test for a month?
> Alternatively, you can get Horizon for a ridiculously low price.


What is Horizon?

They have a free trial.
But you have to know what you need beforehand to choose the right plugins and subscription level.


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## cedricm (Dec 27, 2021)

Horizon.
They also have cheaper bundles.


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## re-peat (Dec 27, 2021)

Sseltenrych,

If you’re new to most of this, it’s way too soon to buy saturation or tape-sim plugins, in my opinion. Because this is what’ll happen: you’re going to load them into your project — (because you read somewhere you should) expecting great things to happen almost instantaneously — and you won’t hear any difference at first. So you’ll say to yourself: “Mmm, maybe I need to add some more”. And you do. And then you’ll say to yourself: “Still not really hearing it. Let’s add some more. Just a little bit more won’t hurt.” And that’s where you start doing damage which you won’t hear at first either but which, trust me, ruins your every chance of ending up with a good-sounding mix.

I listen to plenty of the material that gets posted in the Members’ Compositions area and among the many conclusions that can be drawn if you do that, one sticks out: that most people seem to have very little idea of how and what to saturate in a mix. It’s not that you hear actually distorted mixes, but you do hear, all too often, that typical smeary, gritty sound that has no definition, no energy and very little true sonic colour. All of which is the inevitable result of using saturation (and tape-sims) wrongly.

An awful lot of what you read (or see on Youtube) about saturators and tape simulators is wrong. Bad information. And in this context bad information is dangerous information. Especially if you’re working with samples as your main source of audio.

So I’d wait with those, if I were you.
And get the basics sorted first.

The reason I feel you need to get the basics addressed first, is that little comment you made about drums needing compressors with fast attacks. That’s not true. Couldn’t be more untrue, in fact. As José already pointed out: drums are usually served MUCH better with compressors that have their attack parameter set to a _slow_ or even very slow setting.
If you don’t know why that is, you really do need to learn about compression first. It’s very important that you do. If you ever want to able to produce good-sounding mixes anyway.

Same thing with EQ’s. I notice you’ve got the F6 listed. That’s a very good plugin, no doubt about it, but being a dynamic EQ, not the ideal plugin, I feel, to get started with if you’re still in the process of assimilating the basics of mixing. Get yourself a good traditional EQ first — Waves got plenty of those, or, better still, use the stock EQ in your DAW for studying purposes — and learn that inside out. And once you feel you really know how to work with traditional EQ’ing (which is much more difficult and requires a lot more experience than you might think), you can then move on, now well-prepped, to other, more complex types of EQ’ing such as dynamic EQ’ing.

It can be stressed enough: you need to be in full command of the basic mixing techniques first, before moving on to what may appear to be more exciting/creative/adventurous types of processing. You seem keen to experiment and get creative with plugins, and that’s great, but you won’t be able to do so — not with any real vision or ability to translate your ideas into sound anyway — unless you start from a strong foundation of solid technical know-how. If you skip that step, you’re looking at endless mixing hours either waiting for happy accidents to occur, and occasionally getting something right perhaps, but mostly struggling with a chronic dissatisfaction with your sound, without ever really knowing why things turned out sounding bad _again_.

If I were in your situation, I wouldn’t buy anything new just yet. StudioOne comes with plenty of very decent, even excellent plugins. There’s absolutely no point, nor percentage, in replacing these with stuff from Waves or PluginAlliance. Furthermore: if you wait and spend the next few weeks and months studying the essentials of mixing and sound processing (using your DAW’s plugins), you’ll be all the better prepared, when you feel the time has come to move on to a higher class of mixing tools, to make the best possible choices.

__


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## CatComposer (Dec 27, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Sseltenrych,
> 
> If you’re new to most of this, it’s way too soon to buy saturation or tape-sim plugins, in my opinion. Because this is what’ll happen: you’re going to load them into your project — (because you read somewhere you should) expecting great things to happen almost instantaneously — and you won’t hear any difference at first. So you’ll say to yourself: “Mmm, maybe I need to add some more”. And you do. And then you’ll say to yourself: “Still not really hearing it. Let’s add some more. Just a little bit more won’t hurt.” And that’s where you start doing damage which you won’t hear at first either but which, trust me, ruins your every chance of ending up with a good-sounding mix.
> 
> ...


I am further in learning than I have indicated so far.
I'm not skipping the basics.
I have spent most of this year educating myself from tutorials from Dan Worrall, Sage Audio, In the Mix, etc, and have been using my stock plugins, plus a ton of free ones (such as Nova and Kotelnikov).
I am at the stage of wanting to explore more options at little cost, and the Waves subscription seems the best choice for me at this time.
I would not be buying any plugins before thoroughly testing them.

I'm not interested in plugins for drums, as I don't use drums.
My mixes are acoustic/instrumental samples and recorded vocals only.
I said this so people wouldn't recommend plugins that are tailored for drums.

I'm trying to narrow down the options, as there are perhaps around 100 Waves plugins.
I was hoping people could suggest ones they have found to be effective for my niche of music.
(and not a niche involving drums).

I watched this tutorial on the F6 and saw how it can be used to make space for a vocal in a mix where the instruments are at a similar frequency and competing/masking the vocal.
So I think that could be very useful for some of my songs:


I'm fairly certain my stock plugins can't do this, at least not so elegantly.


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## d4vec4rter (Dec 27, 2021)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the newer AI plugins that, kind of, do the work for you like Soundtheory Gullfoss, Voxengo Teote, the Sonible Smart series and the like. Rather than paying into a subscription where you're likely to never use 75% of the plugins accessible to you, invest in a few good quality plugins that you're always going to use. Zynaptiq's Intensity is a superb two knob "betterizer". Kush Audio Blyss is great on the mix bus as is Pulsar Audio's Mu compressor. 

When you think about it, unless you are looking to shape the sound in a very particular way, orchestral samples shouldn't need much, if any, track processing because they've already been expertly recorded. The only channel processing I tend to bother with is a surgical eq or filter to reduce the noise floor of strings or a preamp to simply boost the signal. I'd suggest focusing your attention more on getting a few good plugins for your mix bus.


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## re-peat (Dec 27, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> I am further in learning than I have indicated so far.
> I'm not skipping the basics.


Ok. And I apologize for any wrong assumptions on my part. It’s just that, some of the things you said gave me the impression that the Land of Mixing Music still contained vast stretches of terra incognita for you (as it does for me, by the way). Again, I am sorry.

Compressors aren’t just for drums, you know. They can be incredibly useful to add life and tabasco to all sections of the virtual orchestra. Pizzicato can be made to sound more bouncy, stabs and accents can have increased snap and punch, rhythmic ostinati can be made to sound more pulsating and driving, the overal dynamics can be controlled better, the percussion section can reach new levels of impact, … countless ways of making good use of compressors in virtual orchestra mixes.
(And besides: the way you'll be using the Waves F6 will also greatly improve if you know all about compression because dynamic EQ'ing and multi-band compression are closely related, sharing several identical parameters.)

I had a look at my Waves collection. I’ve bought quite a lot over the years, but in recent times only a few of them remain active:
- the F6 (good tool)
- the EMO-D5 (also good, but I hardly ever use it — it’s on its way out as well, I fear)
- the Sheps Omni (good-ish, I guess, but if it stopped working, it wouldn’t upset me in the least)
- the AR Chambers and AR Plates (both good and useful, but not great, imo)
- three instruments: the two electric pianos and BassFingers (I quite like this threesome, not for their verisimilitude — which is poor — but they’re great to play and fit well whenever I use them in a mix. So, they’re keepers. Of hardly any interest to you though, I suppose.)

What I will never use from Waves again however, are their tape machines (I have two: the Kramer and the J37) and anything of theirs that has the Abbey Road logo on it (except the aforementioned Plates and Chambers). I am loath to use the term ‘snake oil’ as that has been appropriated by that insufferable Dutch clown and complete idiot on Youtube, but ‘snake oil’ is indeed what, in my opinion, most of Waves’ Abbey Road plugins are.

_


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## liquidlino (Dec 27, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> I just had a look at Bx Masterdesk - 20 knobs and buttons.
> That's too much of a learning curve for me.
> I'm not an audio engineer and would rather spend more time creating music than figuring out a complex plugin like that.


Hey, you know what. I think you answered your own question here. Don't buy anything. On fiver there are literally hundreds of audio engineers who know their stuff. They will mix your stems for next to no money (like 10 bucks a track), using top notch plugins and years of experience. I agree, spend your time doing what you're good at and enjoy and what to specialise in. I'm not being facitious or sarcastic, I'm genuinely saying, don't do your own mixing.


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## CatComposer (Dec 27, 2021)

d4vec4rter said:


> I'm surprised no one has mentioned the newer AI plugins that, kind of, do the work for you like Soundtheory Gullfoss, Voxengo Teote, the Sonible Smart series and the like. Rather than paying into a subscription where you're likely to never use 75% of the plugins accessible to you, invest in a few good quality plugins that you're always going to use. Zynaptiq's Intensity is a superb two knob "betterizer". Kush Audio Blyss is great on the mix bus as is Pulsar Audio's Mu compressor.
> 
> When you think about it, unless you are looking to shape the sound in a very particular way, orchestral samples shouldn't need much, if any, track processing because they've already been expertly recorded. The only channel processing I tend to bother with is a surgical eq or filter to reduce the noise floor of strings or a preamp to simply boost the signal. I'd suggest focusing your attention more on getting a few good plugins for your mix bus.


Yes, in theory samples are supposed to be expertly recorded, however, without mentioning any names, I have encountered some resonance and noise issues.
I am working at resolving those with plugins like Gulfoss, but that is not the purpose of this thread.
I just came across Zynaptiq Intensity the other day and it looks great but is nearly $400.
I just wish it was more affordable.
I bought Sonible smart EQ 2 a while ago and haven't yet found it to be of any use.
It seems to make everything sound worse, unfortunately.


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## CatComposer (Dec 27, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Hey, you know what. I think you answered your own question here. Don't buy anything. On fiver there are literally hundreds of audio engineers who know their stuff. They will mix your stems for next to no money (like 10 bucks a track), using top notch plugins and years of experience. I agree, spend your time doing what you're good at and enjoy and what to specialise in. I'm not being facitious or sarcastic, I'm genuinely saying, don't do your own mixing.


Yes, at the end of the day, I might end up doing that.
However, I prefer to know what's being done to my audio, and am keen to learn.


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## liquidlino (Dec 27, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> Yes, at the end of the day, I might end up doing that.
> However, I prefer to know what's being done to my audio, and am keen to learn.


It's what I should probably do lol. I'm a nerd so I love learning plugins, but I'm far from *good* at it. Good mixing takes years and years of practice, which I didn't believe when I started, but I totally believe it now.


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## CatComposer (Dec 27, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Ok. And I apologize for any wrong assumptions on my part. It’s just that, some of the things you said gave me the impression that the Land of Mixing Music still contained vast stretches of terra incognita for you (as it does for me, by the way). Again, I am sorry.



It's ok. Mixing drums is a vast area which I don't intend to learn, so I'm happy to be caught out saying something wrong in that field.
It's just that the marketing blurb says the CLA-76 compressor has a superfast attack and sounds excellent on drums.
That immediately made me disinterested in it.



re-peat said:


> Compressors aren’t just for drums, you know. They can be incredibly useful to add life and tabasco to all sections of the virtual orchestra.


Yes, I know, that's why I'm interested in Waves plugins because they have a ton of different compressors.
I haven't yet found a "flavour" of compressor that I like to glue my mix together,
so I'm keen to keep trying new ones.



re-peat said:


> What I will never use from Waves again however, are their tape machines (I have two: the Kramer and the J37) and anything of theirs that has the Abbey Road logo on it (except the aforementioned Plates and Chambers).


Now this is very interesting!
Can you expand on this at all?
I've read so many comments from people saying that Kramer and J37 are so good and that they magically make everything sound much better. "cheating" is another word they use.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Dec 27, 2021)

My advice would be to spend some money buying a subscription to Groove3 or one of the other companies that teach how to use audio software. Make sure there are a lot of courses on how to use EQs, Compressors, Reverbs, Limiters, Saturation, and so on. You can watch stuff free on YouTube, although the quality of the lessons will vary. Learn your craft on the tools that come in your DAW. In my opinion, knowing what you're supposed to be doing when you use effects and developing your ears is more important than which plugin you use.

Be wary of anybody selling you "magic bullet" software that will do all the work for you and make your drums sound great. The tools in your DAW will make your drums sound great if you use them in a purposeful way.

I suggest that you take your time acquiring plugins. A lot of companies offer freebies and you can decide if they have an interface that works for your workflow and your style of music.

My advice is to get stuff from more than one brand, but try to scale them back over time to the ones you really use.

Waves were once thought to be the "best" plugins available by many. They were very expensive and like ProTools, they were in every studio. So today you have a lot of people are very experienced at using them. Today, there are a ton of very high-quality companies making effects. If you want variety, why begin by tethering yourself to one brand?

Once you know what you're doing, if you understand what WUP is and how hard Waves are to resell, then buy their stuff if you want.

Just my two cents.


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## CatComposer (Dec 27, 2021)

Reid Rosefelt said:


> My advice would be to spend some money buying a subscription to Groove3 or one of the other companies that teach how to use audio software. Make sure there are a lot of courses on how to use EQs, Compressors, Reverbs, Limiters, Saturation, and so on. You can watch stuff free on YouTube, although the quality of the lessons will vary. Learn your craft on the tools that come in your DAW. In my opinion, knowing what you're supposed to be doing when you use effects and developing your ears is more important than which plugin you use.


As mentioned, I have spent most of this year studying, and now feel it's time to experiment with some new plugins.


Reid Rosefelt said:


> Be wary of anybody selling you "magic bullet" software that will do all the work for you and make your drums sound great. The tools in your DAW will make your drums sound great if you use them in a purposeful way.


I don't use drums, and yes, I'm wary of "magic bullets".


Reid Rosefelt said:


> I suggest that you take your time acquiring plugins. A lot of companies offer freebies and you can decide if they have an interface that works for your workflow and your style of music.
> 
> My advice is to get stuff from more than one brand, but try to scale them back over time to the ones you really use.


I recently bought Seventh Heaven on sale, and am very happy with that purchase.


Reid Rosefelt said:


> Waves were once thought to be the "best" plugins available by many. They were very expensive and like ProTools, they were in every studio. So today you have a lot of people are very experienced at using them. Today, there are a ton of very high-quality companies making effects. If you want variety, why begin by tethering yourself to one brand?


The subscription model suits me well (eg. $9 a month for dozens of plugins).
If I get a subscription, I'm not tethered to them. I can quit anytime and will have lost very little.


Reid Rosefelt said:


> Once you know what you're doing, if you understand what WUP is and how hard Waves are to resell, then buy their stuff if you want.


I don't want to buy them, just get a subscription, which avoids WUP.
Still, if I found a plugin worthy of the $29 price tag, I may not be affected by WUP.
If I understand correctly, it only applies to system updates. (which is a problem for Apple users)
As a Windows 10 user, I would remain unaffected as long as I don't use Windows 11 (which I have no intention of ever getting!)

I appreciate you contributing to the discussion Reid, as you're very knowledgeable about these things.
If you would be willing, could you share what you think are the top 5 Waves plugins you know,
or any that have stood the test of time which you might consider using for vocals and orchestral samples?


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## re-peat (Dec 27, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> Can you expand on this at all?



Everything that follows is personal opinion of course (although some of it seems shared by a good number of people): there is no such thing as a plugin which magically makes everything sound better. Doesn’t exist. And even if it did, the claim of “magically improving sound” would still only apply when used on live sound (which is infinitely more rich and complex — dynamically, texturally and timbrally — than frozen sampled sound).

Demo what are considered some of the best plugins out there and you should find that, on sample-based audio (particularly of the mock-real variety), they are largely impotent and certainly unable to give off their best. All of them. That’s not their fault, that’s the fault of the material they’re asked to process. It's not that these plugins are useless, of course not, but giving them inferior audio to work with — and all sample-based (mock-real) audio is, by way of being, inferior audio — and you rob them of any chance to show you why they might be better than stock plugins.

(The whole discussion changes a bit if, instead of mock-orchestral music, you'd be doing mostly electronic, synth-based material, since that changes the rules and anti-rules of the game a little.)

But you can’t really test, say, the uniqueness of a compressor (in all its appealing and musical detail) with samples because samples, due to their largely static contours and dead waves (and their often questionable recording quality), are simply unable to push a compressor onto a level of activity where its singularity has a chance to shine. A well-recorded voice, or live drums, or a real instruments …. yes, absolutely … but a snippet of sampled strings, woodwinds or brass miserably oozing out of Kontakt, Synchron, Play or Sine? No way. There’s just not enough life there, if any at all, for the compressor to get its teeth into.

And its the same with (high-end) saturation and tape simulation: use this on sample-based audio and all you get is a superficial coating — often combined with a noticeable dulling and diffusing of the sound — that doesn’t improve a thing, let alone that it does a convincing simulation of “sound recorded onto tape”.

I’ve spent quite a bit of time — I guess everybody does at some point — searching for these special plugins that, by mere insertion, help your mix a few steps forward and the only thing I’ve found that can be said to come close is the Kush Clariphonic and a few Acustica Aqua’s. The Clariphonic is a good illustration of what I said earlier: give it real strings to work with, and it’ll respond with the addition of a beautiful, airy, glistening and always lively and detailed high-end to the sound. Give it sampled strings to do its thing with, on the other hand, and what you get is still an improvement, but also a potentially dangerous and unpleasant increase of harshness and unnatural sounding brittle-ness. Used with samples, the Clariphonic is about 20% of the Clariphonic you can hear in action on real live audio. To my ears, that is.

As for the Waves Abbey Road stuff: I’m no technical expert, far from it, and I don’t know what’s going on under the hood of these plugins, but to me, they sound just like any other plugin. Nothing special about them at all. Tested all of them, bought a few them a long time ago, but never once did I move a dial, press a button or flip a switch and said: “Hey, this gives me that creamy analog sound I was after!”. Never happened. (Even when working with high-quality source audio.) I don’t question that the curves inside these plugins may be modeled on those of Abbey Road gear, but they’re static curves and the very appeal — the very soul — of hardware such as that found in Abbey Road is precisely that it is chaotic, unpredictable, non-static and non-linear or, in a word, analog. Maybe Waves will one day update their plugins with new algorithms that include recent advancements made in analog modeling, at which point the Abbey Road plugins might become a lot more interesting, attractive and faithful, but until that happens, I really don’t see any good reason why someone would bother with these plugins. (And if you want the sound of Abbey Road in the box, there are much better and more accurate ways to get it anyway.)

We can talk about this for several more pages, I suppose, and it might produce a few memorable crumbs of info, but the best you could do, I feel, is to test the demos you’re interested in for yourself. Without anyone else distracting or trying to influence you. Test them rigorously and honestly, without ever fooling yourself into thinking one way or the other. Don’t believe me — I might very well be as full of excrement as any other online presence —, don’t believe the gurus, don’t fall for the big claims of companies and their (often sneakily disguised) online agents, never think something is true simply because you read it on Gearspace, … no, test whatever you’re interested in by yourself and make up your own mind about all of this. Who knows, you might really like the Kramer and the J37 and that’s an opinion that’s every bit as valid as mine.

Just find out what you consider best for _your music_.

_


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## Living Fossil (Dec 27, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> I watched this tutorial on the F6 and saw how it can be used to make space for a vocal in a mix where the instruments are at a similar frequency and competing/masking the vocal.
> So I think that could be very useful for some of my songs:


If it's about orchestral music, the purpose of a dynamic EQ is not "to make place for other ones/a voice" etc. 
That's something you achieve with the instrumentation.
(if it's about vocals in an orchestral context i can't recommend studying scores from Puccini and Richard Strauss enough. Take a look at how they arrange the bass register – and specially what they don't use there when a voice is singing – etc.)

I use dynamic EQ in orchestral music quite a bit, but rather to work around the limitation that come with missing velocity layers and/or frequency buildups.

Other than that, you should bookmark @re-peat 's post #30 and revisit it in one year or maybe in two years. You will be amazed how much more actual it will appear to you than it does right now.
Unfortunately, mixing music gets more and more complex the deeper you dive. And the function of the basics (as repeat mentioned) gets more and more crucial over the years.


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## river angler (Dec 27, 2021)

CLA 2A pretty much on all instruments except percussion if only for its subtle sonic but I do sometimes crank the threshold level to compress further. I just find it's the one that works best on orchestral being less aggressive helping to make the instruments sound more coherent together within the mockup.


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## Haakond (Dec 27, 2021)

I like to use CLA 2A on strings, brass and woodwinds.
Kramer Tape on brass, sometimes on strings. J37 on the master bus


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## river angler (Dec 27, 2021)

Haakond said:


> I like to use CLA 2A on strings, brass and woodwinds.
> Kramer Tape on brass, sometimes on strings. J37 on the master bus


Yes! just works doesn't it! CLA 2A... never tried Kramer Tape or J37


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## lux (Dec 27, 2021)

I have the same feeling as re-peat about how processing works on sampled orchestral material, there's so much to degrade more than ehnance. At the same time many plugins (or plugin chains) can do miracles on other sampled or live material, so there's definitely a minus when dealing with sampled orchestra and processing.

Also, Living Fossils raises a serious point. When it comes to sampled orchestra, any audio processing may be secondary to an orchestration processing. There's always something that you can work a bit changing orchestral colours and combinations. You want it darker? you got an orchestration way for that. You want it deeper? more dynamic? less dynamic? more airy? it's all workable at first with orchestration and it's way less frustrating to me than trying to squash a compressor/eq/ehnancer on my strings channel and transform everything in a bow noise inferno.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Dec 27, 2021)

Well, from your polite answers, it's clear that my suggestions were not very helpful, as I didn't read your original post carefully before jumping in. I think I responded to other posts, not yours--so shame on me. Put my advice in the "never mind!" file.




But thank you for saying that I'm knowledgeable. That's kind of you.



Sseltenrych said:


> The subscription model suits me well (eg. $9 a month for dozens of plugins).
> If I get a subscription, I'm not tethered to them. I can quit anytime and will have lost very little.
> 
> I don't want to buy them, just get a subscription, which avoids WUP.
> ...



Yes, and you will have been able to find the stuff you really like. (I thought it was great that I could get a month of Composer's Cloud and check out everything that interested me. ) Then you can quit and buy them. But if you do quit and don't buy anything you will have lost your investment in the time learning how to use them. 

I'm not at all knowledgeable about Waves plugins. Once I fully understood WUP I decided I would never do it, so I stopped putting their plugins in my music. I realized I wouldn't be able to revisit old projects without WUPPING or remixing. 

But this is no judgment on the quality. Listen to everybody else.


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## river angler (Dec 27, 2021)

...Indeed! Always focus on taming the orchestration way before even contemplating using dynamics.

Re dynamic eq I find it's solo brass that sometimes needs certain notes taming- you know! those ones that poke out in a piercing way occasionally in the lower mids!

As has already been emphasised by others here: an orchestra is naturally dynamic in its nature and vital that that dynamic is left in tact if one is going to produce an inspiring and convincing result.

I think there is always potentially a trap one can fall into regarding the perception of any orchestral instruments timbre dynamic in relation to its actual amplitude dynamic within any orchestral composition. This is where one has to consider use of compression judiciously if use it at all so as not to inadvertently confuse the two and ultimately end up ruining an orchestras natural dynamics.


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## CatComposer (Dec 27, 2021)

Haakond said:


> I like to use CLA 2A on strings, brass and woodwinds.
> Kramer Tape on brass, sometimes on strings. J37 on the master bus


Extremely helpful, thank you. 
This is the kind of "recipe" I was looking for to get me started.


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## CatComposer (Dec 27, 2021)

Living Fossil said:


> If it's about orchestral music, the purpose of a dynamic EQ is not "to make place for other ones/a voice" etc.
> That's something you achieve with the instrumentation.
> 
> Unfortunately, mixing music gets more and more complex the deeper you dive. And the function of the basics (as repeat mentioned) gets more and more crucial over the years.


In the song I have in mind, I have a chamber strings arrangement supporting a vocal.
It seems that the viola part is directly competing with the vocal register,
so I may need to shift it up higher, but it sounds great where it is. (when strings are playing alone)

I thought I could try the F6 trick in the video to carve out space for the vocal centrally while still having the violas coming through on the left and right of it.
That's using the split mode sidechaining with external trigger.


How he explains it here makes perfect sense to me.
Of course, the end result wouldn't be realistic, or translatable to a live setting, but it hopefully should prevent the vocal being masked by the violas in my project.

There may be other plugins that are better for unmasking vocals,
but that's something I'd need to research more.


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## CatComposer (Dec 27, 2021)

river angler said:


> CLA 2A pretty much on all instruments except percussion if only for its subtle sonic but I do sometimes crank the threshold level to compress further. I just find it's the one that works best on orchestral being less aggressive helping to make the instruments sound more coherent together within the mockup.


From what I had read, I thought the CLA 2A might be the best one for my purposes.
I am grateful that you confirmed this for me.


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## liquidlino (Dec 27, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> In the song I have in mind, I have a chamber strings arrangement supporting a vocal.
> It seems that the viola part is directly competing with the vocal register,
> so I may need to shift it up higher, but it sounds great where it is. (when strings are playing alone)
> 
> ...



Fyi. Nova can do the side chain dynamic eq trick you describe here.


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## Trash Panda (Dec 27, 2021)

Have you heard of the FAST bundle from Focusrite? Only reason I mention it was the comment about plugins with intimidating interfaces. 

This bundle gives you the algorithmic assistance and plugin guts from Sonible’s plugins with some clever interfaces to help translate what they do audibly to visuals along with some guidance.


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## Henu (Dec 27, 2021)

Everything Renaissance and S1. I can't stand the CLA2A myself, it makes everything too woolly and mushy. For that, I'd warmly suggest Black Rooster instead which is my go-to for the LA2A compression.


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## river angler (Dec 27, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> From what I had read, I thought the CLA 2A might be the best one for my purposes.
> I am grateful that you confirmed this for me.


...I have the rest of that series and some of the other boutique comps they do but the 2A is the only one I ever use on orchestral instruments. It's just one of their most useful plugins not just for orchestral of course!


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## river angler (Dec 27, 2021)

Henu said:


> Everything Renaissance and S1. I can't stand the CLA2A myself, it makes everything too woolly and mushy. For that, I'd warmly suggest Black Rooster instead which is my go-to for the LA2A compression.


Interesting you find it woolly/mushey! I guess it depends partly on the source samples you use. I only use Chris Hein for main orchestral. Out of interest have you ever tried adjusting the little high frequency dial at the bottom right of the plugin? I find I don't have to use it myself as i don't find the comp generally makes my samples sound woolly but on occasion I have used it to bring an instrument into focus more.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 27, 2021)

I've ditched Waves because of the WUP, but still swear buy a couple of plugins....the Puig-Tec EQ and Kramer Mater Tape. Check out this video, it shows Alan Meyerson using a few Waves plugins and how they work.


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## Henu (Dec 27, 2021)

river angler said:


> Out of interest have you ever tried adjusting the little high frequency dial at the bottom right of the plugin?


Yeah, but that's meant for HPF sidechaining and doesn't unfortunately change the sound. For me, the CLA2A just thickens the low mids too much so I tend not to use it.


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## river angler (Dec 27, 2021)

Henu said:


> Yeah, but that's meant for HPF sidechaining and doesn't unfortunately change the sound. For me, the CLA2A just thickens the low mids too much so I tend not to use it.


Actually, Henu, it's only named a side chain filter in the sense that its a hardwired one! I sometimes find it a useful alternative to using straight eq for "unthickening" brass for example when the low end is fighting too much with boomy percussion. It might not technically change the sound but it certainly gives you added control of the perceived sonics at a slightly earlier  point in the audio chain


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## Tralen (Dec 27, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> For saturation, also demo Phil's cascade from brainworx. Super musical saturation, can get it on sale with a voucher for 15 bucks if you keep your eye out. Same with brainworx SSL channel strip.


I think it is by Elysia.

You can get it for $14,99 right now using the generic voucher below:
USERSURVEY21QFK8H0T9


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## Tralen (Dec 27, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> In the song I have in mind, I have a chamber strings arrangement supporting a vocal.
> It seems that the viola part is directly competing with the vocal register,
> so I may need to shift it up higher, but it sounds great where it is. (when strings are playing alone)
> 
> ...



Oh, please don't do harm to the violas.

This is the exact point Living Fossil and lux were making. You can improve in so many ways just in the arrangement or even in the sitting. Reduce the intensity of (or silence) the violas when the vocal enters, or have the violas play shorter notes when the vocal sustains, or even move the vocal to one side and the violas to the other.

To get the effect you are describing, you could simply have the violas in divisi with one half seated on the left and the other on the right, with the vocal centered.


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## CatComposer (Dec 27, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Oh, please don't do harm to the violas.
> 
> This is the exact point Living Fossil and lux were making. You can improve in so many ways just in the arrangement or even in the sitting. Reduce the intensity of (or silence) the violas when the vocal enters, or have the violas play shorter notes when the vocal sustains, or even move the vocal to one side and the violas to the other.
> 
> To get the effect you are describing, you could simply have the violas in divisi with one half seated on the left and the other on the right, with the vocal centered.


I was feeling like this about my violas!



I tried shortening the notes, but this attracted my ear to them too much.
I don't want them to be noticeable, just adding color to the background.

I already have the violas panned to the left.
After applying an EQ dip centered at 1k (spanning 500hz to 2k),
it has preserved the lovely tone of the violas (below 500hz), while allowing space for the words to be heard better.
So I don't think I need to resort to dynamic EQ after all.


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## Vik (Dec 27, 2021)

This one:








L3 Multimaximizer Multiband Peak Limiter Plugin | Waves


A powerful auto-summing multiband limiter for all-in-one mastering, the L3 multiband peak limiter plugin enhances your frequency response and maximizes your levels.




www.waves.com


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## Henu (Dec 28, 2021)

river angler said:


> I sometimes find it a useful alternative to using straight eq for "unthickening" brass for example when the low end is fighting too much with boomy percussion.


Well well, gotta check it properly out then- thanks for the tip!


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## sean8877 (Dec 28, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> I just had a look at Bx Masterdesk - 20 knobs and buttons.
> That's too much of a learning curve for me.
> I'm not an audio engineer and would rather spend more time creating music than figuring out a complex plugin like that.


There are lots of good presets with bx_Masterdesk and all of the Plugin Alliance plugins. I use mostly the presets and do some small tweaks. I'll echo others here and recommend Plugin Alliance over Waves. Waves' business model and WUP is beyond outdated and there are plenty of creative effects in the Plugin Alliance catalog.


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## river angler (Dec 28, 2021)

Henu said:


> Well well, gotta check it properly out then- thanks for the tip!


If I had a pound for every time I'd overlooked a feature of a piece of kit, hardware or software, throughout my career I'd be a rich man by now!


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## MusicIstheBest (Dec 28, 2021)

I once downloaded a Waves freebie or demo and its registry software which lives on your computer kept trying to verify unrelated programs, Finale i believe it was. It didn't cripple it but the message at startup was enough to annoy me and swear off anything Waves.


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## CatComposer (Dec 28, 2021)

sean8877 said:


> There are lots of good presets with bx_Masterdesk and all of the Plugin Alliance plugins. I use mostly the presets and do some small tweaks. I'll echo others here and recommend Plugin Alliance over Waves. Waves' business model and WUP is beyond outdated and there are plenty of creative effects in the Plugin Alliance catalog.


I'm sure they work well for some people.
I have attempted to use plugins with those kinds of interfaces, and although I understand what some of the controls do, many are a mystery to me.
Of course I could learn it, but it doesn't appeal to me.
Most of the time, I don't know which of the many knobs I'm supposed to be tweaking.

I'd rather be using a plugin geared towards a user of my experience level.

If I had been working in the industry in the 1970s and was familiar with that analog gear, it would be a different story.

Maybe in a few months, I'll be joining the chorus of people wailing about Waves, but at the moment,
I'm willing to give it a try. 

I'm amazed that so few people have contributed an answer to my question on this thread. 
(I didn't ask if I should be using Waves, and I didn't ask for alternatives to Waves)
Perhaps less people use Waves plugins than I expected.


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## sean8877 (Dec 28, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> I'm sure they work well for some people.
> I have attempted to use plugins with those kinds of interfaces, and although I understand what some of the controls do, many are a mystery to me.
> Of course I could learn it, but it doesn't appeal to me.
> Most of the time, I don't know which of the many knobs I'm supposed to be tweaking.
> ...


I do own a bunch of Waves plugins but use almost none of them anymore, that's the point I was trying to make. Once I discovered Plugin Alliance and some other developers I weaned off most of the Waves plugins. People aren't trying to avoid answering your question they are trying to be generally helpful by sharing their experiences with Waves. But you do you. Not sure how long you have been on internet forums but if you expect things to stay on topic in a forum then you might want to think about changing your expectations because it usually doesn't work that way.


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## Trash Panda (Dec 28, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> I'm sure they work well for some people.
> I have attempted to use plugins with those kinds of interfaces, and although I understand what some of the controls do, many are a mystery to me.
> Of course I could learn it, but it doesn't appeal to me.
> Most of the time, I don't know which of the many knobs I'm supposed to be tweaking.
> ...


Sorry, it feels like there is some mixed messaging here. You stated wanting to try Waves plugins to add analog flavor to your mixes, but didn’t want to deal with analog interfaces, which typically go hand in hand for analog style plugins. 

You also stated a preference for intuitive or simple interfaces, which outside of some specific Waves plugins, are more the domain of Fabfilter and Sonible/Focusrite FAST. 

I think a lot of time it’s hard for folks to recommend Waves for analog emulation because most of the plugins lack oversampling, so the “analog flavor” they can add often translates to digital harshness from aliasing. 

Sorry that you aren’t finding the advice helpful, but people are giving their honest opinions versus serving as confirmation bias/echo chamber parrots.


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## CatComposer (Dec 28, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Sorry, it feels like there is some mixed messaging here. You stated wanting to try Waves plugins to add analog flavor to your mixes, but didn’t want to deal with analog interfaces, which typically go hand in hand for analog style plugins.
> 
> You also stated a preference for intuitive or simple interfaces, which outside of some specific Waves plugins, are more the domain of Fabfilter and Sonible/Focusrite FAST.
> 
> ...


Hi TrashPanda,
What I said was:
"I think a vintage sound would be nice for some of my songs, so the analog emulators are on my radar.
Also, I'm looking for smooth and subtle saturators and compressors."

I am grateful that this question has been answered well.
I will be starting my testing to the Kramer, J-37 and CLA-2A.
This may save me countless hours of frustration with other Waves plugins.

These are indeed analog emulators, but the interfaces are simple and self-explanatory.

On the other hand, I don't find Plugin Alliance plugins intuitive.
Consider the Brainworx plugin with over 40 knobs and buttons.

Also, I can't afford Fabfilter and similar products, but Waves are within my budget.


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## CatComposer (Dec 28, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> I'd say OP is also giving off *very* mixed messages about his skill level / required difficulty level of plugins. One second it's "I want a one knob wonder, I'm terrible at mixing, I can't cope with more than one knob" the next its "I want F6, an incredibly complex dynamic EQ that's literally as complex as it gets in audio processing, btw I've got years of experience and I know what I'm doing", and then back to "I bought soothe (or whatever automated dynamic EQ it was) but I can't get it to sound good, I need something simpler".
> 
> OP its incredibly difficult for anyone to help/advise you with such mixed messaging. I think you've had tons of Waves recommendations on here (I gave several that you didn't even respond to), but coupled generally with the sage advice "don't do it, look elsewhere for your plugins".


Hi Liquidlino,

I have been honest about my skill level.
I have not yet finished my first song, so am inexperienced.
However, I don't need to learn the basics of how to use a compressor.
I've studied most of this year on the subject and am keen to explore beyond my stock plugins.

I never said I can't cope with more than one knob.
However, simple and effective plugins like Fresh Air are appealing.

The F6 has a graphical interface and is very easy to understand, 
and it's designers should be commended for this.
Also, I showed the video which explains how to use the F6 to "make space" for the vocal.
Even though I'm a beginner, this doesn't seem difficult at all.


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## CatComposer (Dec 28, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Sorry, it feels like there is some mixed messaging here. You stated wanting to try Waves plugins to add analog flavor to your mixes, but didn’t want to deal with analog interfaces, which typically go hand in hand for analog style plugins.


No, I never said I don't want to deal with analog interfaces.
When I said, "If I had been working in the industry in the 1970s and was familiar with that analog gear, it would be a different story", I was referring to the Plugin Alliance analog emulators.

I find the Plugin Alliance analog emulators to have interfaces that have too many knobs and buttons.
To find the 'sweet spot' of such plugins will obviously take much longer than a simpler plugin.

The Kramer tape and J37 tape analog emulators have very different interfaces from the Plugin Alliance ones and are geared towards amateurs like myself.

They are also widely discussed and I can find recommended settings for them fairly easily.


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## CatComposer (Dec 28, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> I count 32 switches or dials that can be set in J37.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I find that comparison interesting but I would still choose the Kramer.
The Warble interface is indeed much simpler than most of the Plugin Alliance plugins.
But I don't like it. I don't find it interesting or engaging.
I certainly wouldn't pay $99 USD for something that looks like that.

And even though Kramer tape has more buttons that I would like, as I said before:
"They are also widely discussed and I can find recommended settings for them fairly easily."
Which means I won't be wasting hours tweaking knobs to find the sweet spot.
In addition, each knob and button is clearly labelled and I immediately understand what most of them do without reading a confusing manual.

I am making sense. You're just not understanding.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 28, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> However, I don't need to learn the basics of how to use a compressor.
> I've studied most of this year on the subject and am keen to explore beyond my stock plugins.


Honestly, I’m not sure you have really mastered your stock plugins yet. I think you need some more time to understand what you are missing. At that point, you won’t be worrying about the cost and will be focussing on investments such as FabFilter.


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## CatComposer (Dec 28, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Honestly, I’m not sure you have really mastered your stock plugins yet. I think you need some more time to understand what you are missing. At that point, you won’t be worrying about the cost and will be focussing on investments such as FabFilter.


I never said I had mastered the stock plugins.
However, I am keen to explore beyond my stock plugins.
I would like to experiment with plugins that are capable of adding sonic colors which my stock plugins cannot do, or can give me a better final result more quickly.

As I said before, I cannot afford Fabfilter or products in that price range.


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## CatComposer (Dec 28, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> And one note on this. If you can't afford FF now, you wait until you see what your annual WUP and/or waves subscription is going to cost you over the long... far more than FF one time purchase is the short and correct answer.
> 
> Plugin alliance is interesting (sorry to keep bringing them up, I swear I have no vested interest) - if you go with their sub package, they gift you the subscription amount back every year as vouchers if I remember correctly, and you can use the vouchers in sales, so over time you end up buying the plugins you really wanted, at sale price, and not having to buy anything that didn't work out for you - and after a couple of years you'll have everything you need, and stop the subscription and still have the bought plugins. A much better and customer-centric business model.


Hi Liquidlino,

I do appreciate all of your helpful suggestions by the way.
I was of the understanding that WUP only applies to products that require system upgrades.
For example, if I bought a Windows 10 plugin, but later wanted to upgrade to Windows 11.
However, if I stick with Windows 10, and don't want to pay WUP, the plugin will still work fine.

I read that the headache occurs for Mac users who suffer from much more frequent updates.


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## timsusa (Dec 28, 2021)

Sry, I can only say I am dissappointed about waves. I gave up any usage because they try to force me to pay if I will not move, so imagine you already were using their plugins they come up with another hey: "your plugin is game over in one year" thingy.. NOT FOR ME SORRY. I even wrote them an email about it. I see no progression in what they are doing to be honest.


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## timsusa (Dec 28, 2021)

IR 1 Convolution Reverb? https://www.voxengo.com/product/pspace/

Briefly have a look how long are your Wave Products last.. in my case one year and they offer this as super duper special price.. so thank you waves.. and have fun.. LOL


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## timsusa (Dec 28, 2021)

Please give this guy a chance, it is free to check out and you can give him money.. because he is great and he made lot more concerns what we need https://www.patreon.com/analogobsession


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 29, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> and the moment you stop the sub, you lose all the ability to open old projects, as all the plugins will not work any more.


This is not true. Waves simply stops you from updating your plugins (if there are updates), but they will continue to work until your OS will no longer support your version. On Windows, this is apparently not an issue. I went several years on my expired Gold plan, and was only required to update once I went to Big Sur (Mac OS). My plugins were V9, which weren’t supported. Out of principal, I chose not to pay the “ransom” just to continue using 20 year old plugins.

EDIT: I misread your post, you are referring to a sub. That is indeed a good reason why a Waves sub is a bad idea. I need another coffee.


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## CatComposer (Dec 29, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> This is not true. Waves simply stops you from updating your plugins (if there are updates), but they will continue to work until your OS will no longer support your version. On Windows, this is apparently not an issue. I went several years on my expired Gold plan, and was only required to update once I went to Big Sur (Mac OS). My plugins were V9, which weren’t supported. Out of principal, I chose not to pay the “ransom” just to continue using 20 year old plugins.
> 
> EDIT: I misread your post, you are referring to a sub. That is indeed a good reason why a Waves sub is a bad idea. I need another coffee.


For purchased plugins, you can continue to use them long term, as long as you don't update your OS, based on what I've read from users on Reddit.

I don't think Waves conjures up some other arbitrary reason to disable your plugins.
At least I've not found anyone stating that apart from Liquidlino yesterday.


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## Trash Panda (Dec 29, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> Hi TrashPanda,
> What I said was:
> "I think a vintage sound would be nice for some of my songs, so the analog emulators are on my radar.
> Also, I'm looking for smooth and subtle saturators and compressors."
> ...





Sseltenrych said:


> No, I never said I don't want to deal with analog interfaces.
> When I said, "If I had been working in the industry in the 1970s and was familiar with that analog gear, it would be a different story", I was referring to the Plugin Alliance analog emulators.
> 
> I find the Plugin Alliance analog emulators to have interfaces that have too many knobs and buttons.
> ...


I see two replies to what I said, so I'm sorry if my reply bothered you. There can be a difference between what you say and how others interpret it. It's all about communication.

I'm not here to argue one way or the other. I hope you get along well with Waves.


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## Haakond (Dec 29, 2021)

To be honest, I never had any problems with Waves. Never had to update my license. Been using plugins from them since 2017-2018. 
I even had to re-install them all at one point, and just had to transfer the license to the new computer, and they all worked!


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 29, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> I don't think Waves conjures up some other arbitrary reason to disable your plugins.


In a sense they do, as you cannot update them after a year if you don’t update your plan. 

Anyways, there are indeed quite a few good Waves plugins. Just demo them first to see if they’re what you’re after. Looks like your hellbent on using them Lol. Keep in mind they are the MacDonand’s of the plug-in world.


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## Pianist (Dec 29, 2021)

Haakond said:


> To be honest, I never had any problems with Waves. Never had to update my license. Been using plugins from them since 2017-2018.
> I even had to re-install them all at one point, and just had to transfer the license to the new computer, and they all worked!


Actually, you can store your Waves licences onto any usb stick and then you do not even need to transfer licences if you reinstall. But if you do not renew your WUP you are stuck with the latest versions you last bought or updated while still having WUP. But do you always need to update? If the current version works well and does what one needs?
I am still on Windows 7 and the last Waves version working on W7 is Version 10. But my licences are for version 12 and some for 13. So should I ever be forced to update my OS I will most likely be able to use the versions 12/13 of my plugins.


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## Tralen (Dec 29, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> For purchased plugins, you can continue to use them long term, as long as you don't update your OS, based on what I've read from users on Reddit.


Do you think that is reasonable? To be locked in an outdated system just because of one plugin developer?

What happens if you have a hardware failure and needs to reinstall the system? Are you going to hunt for an old and no longer distributed OS version just to satisfy Waves' restrictions? Or even worse, what happens if other plugins and instruments you use _require _that you update your system?


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## NoamL (Dec 29, 2021)

Everyone should watch this video with Alan Meyerson!!!



The most surprising thing is how little Alan is doing to the recordings. The sound captured on stage is so brilliant it only needs a touch-up. He clearly conceives of a good recording as the first and most important step of a good mix.

An important quote from the video -

*"I don't look at EQ as the first solution*_ for bringing stuff out in an orchestra, I look for balance. If you're talking about an *organic orchestral recording*, the first line of offense is a balanced *sound in the room*. Short of that, I look to the blend between the *room and the spot mics*."_

The best mixing plugin is... no plugin.

The second best mixing plugin is... the volume fader on each instrument.

The third best mixing plugin is... the balance between your mics!

This is not just Zen nonsense. The biggest impediment to imitating an "organic orchestral recording" with out-of-the-box samples is not poor recording techniques. It's that every developer works to a different reference volume (and sometimes they are pretty careless about maintaining this reference volume across articulations of the same instrument, although I haven't run into that with Orchestral Tools or Cinematic Studio Series).

The 2 biggest steps you can take towards the "all the instruments in one room" illusion are: first, making sure the reference volume for all your VIs is the same; and second, balancing the mics across instruments from different developers to try and get as close as possible to the sound you want. Only after that would I consider any plugins at all like a bit of added space or a bit of EQ fixing.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 29, 2021)

I would need to pay $240 to WUP my Waves plugins (max cap for 1 year). I'm pretty sure the actual value of the plugins (given how many sales Waves tends to run) is not even $240 in total. I'm on Mac so, Waves plugins like to stop working on new OS updates. Some would say, "just don't ever update your machine!" - and to that I would say, Waves plugins are not good enough that I want to freeze my OS setup and miss out on all the security, speed, etc. improvements. My UAD, FabFilter, Sonnox plugins - I've had those for 5-10 years+ and all continue to be updated and work great. And they all sound much, much better than Waves. Why would I want to use Waves on a project when there's the risk of being held hostage if I want to open that project down the road and the version whatever of Waves doesn't work on that machine all of a sudden? Same goes for subscription plugins.


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## CatComposer (Dec 29, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Do you think that is reasonable? To be locked in an outdated system just because of one plugin developer?
> 
> What happens if you have a hardware failure and needs to reinstall the system? Are you going to hunt for an old and no longer distributed OS version just to satisfy Waves' restrictions? Or even worse, what happens if other plugins and instruments you use _require _that you update your system?


I reinstall my Windows 10 every month or two when I notice glitches or lag building up from various software installations. I can reinstall everything in a few hours.
I have my plugin programs saved on a separate drive and samples on a third drive.
I don't plan to upgrade to Windows 11 for as long as possible (10 years if possible).
Each subsequent version of Windows has more telemetry and compatibility issues, 
so there is strong incentive to stick with the same OS.


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## CatComposer (Dec 29, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> In a sense they do, as you cannot update them after a year if you don’t update your plan.
> 
> Anyways, there are indeed quite a few good Waves plugins. Just demo them first to see if they’re what you’re after. Looks like your hellbent on using them Lol. Keep in mind they are the MacDonand’s of the plug-in world.


As long as I'm using the same OS (Windows 10), I won't need to update them, right?

I'm not hellbent on using them, I have just been forced to explain in great detail why I would consider testing such a devious company's product, and why I prefer their designs over the Plugin Alliance ones.

I'm certainly not about to buy any of them yet, just looking.

To add value to this thread, which ones do you consider to be good?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 29, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> As long as I'm using the same OS (Windows 10), I won't need to update them, right?
> 
> I'm not hellbent on using them, I have just been forced to explain in great detail why I would consider testing such a devious company's product, and why I prefer their designs over the Plugin Alliance ones.
> 
> ...


They are all good, it all depends on your intentions. As I mentioned a couple of pages back, I use Kramer Master Tape and the Puig-Tec eq for orchestral mixes. Check out that Alan Meyerson video I posted to see how he uses them.


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## CatComposer (Dec 29, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> They are all good, it all depends on your intentions. As I mentioned a couple of pages back, I use Kramer Master Tape and the Puig-Tec eq for orchestral mixes. Check out that Alan Meyerson video I posted to see how he uses them.


Ok, thanks for clarifying. McDonalds must not be so bad after all!
And thanks for the video. I have watched some of it already.


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## cloudbuster (Dec 30, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> And they all sound much, much better than Waves.


Better than McDonalds? In what sense? Mind to elaborate a bit?


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## Password (Dec 30, 2021)

Hi Sseltenrych,

I use Waves plugins, I own about 20 which for me is enough for now. I also don't think the WUP is an issue, because I don't want to update my plugins - I want them to stay the same so I can open old projects and they'll exactly as they did originally.
They're cheap enough that if for whatever reason in the future the OS needs updating, you can just pay for the plugins you really want. Out of my 20, it would be probably 3 or 4.

I use *Abbey road Saturator* often and is probably what I reach for first for sampled strings, brass and organ. If it doesn't put the instrument where I want it before it gets harsh, then I may turn to something else, maybe the *Scheps 1073* with its more subtle saturation.

I think Waves does saturation really well - it appears to work consistently over many different sound sources.
The compressors appear to be less consistenteg,
over the last year I have recorded between 30 -40 bass lines - same pre amp/ settings, same bass/ player and the Waves *Abey Road RS124 compressor* has sounded amazing on exactly 2 of them by doing exactly what I imagine the real thing would do. On the others, it just sounded bland.
So the point I'm making is that the Waves compressors appear to work amazingly but on only a narrow band of material. I couldn't even say what that is, so it's a case of try different plugins on particular instruments/ recordings.

Other makes are more consistent, and I can recommend the Klanghelm compressors, which are a bit cheaper than waves, sound really excellent and weirdly are more consistent over different types of source audio. They have a free version which is essentially one knob compression with a separate knob for level matching and it is very good even in the free version, plus they allow external sidechaining, which, in the description of your mix I would be tempted to try, just to duck the instrument slightly behind the vocal but leave the instrument intact otherwise. Instrumentation/ arrangement will only work so far.

Waves saturators I use in order of frequency:

Abbey road saturator
Waves SSL G channel strip
abbey road REDD desk
Schepps 1073
Scheps Omni channel
Puigtec eq

They are very much superior to the saturators that came with Cubase. In a song, I might use all of the above for different instruments, bringing out different aspects of a particular instruments timbre, or shaping the transient in a more natural way than with just a compressor alone.

For compressors, I use mainly 2 Klanghelm ones, and the Abbey road RS124 and Puigchild compressor. Again, I feel they are superior to the ones that came with Cubase, but not as great a leap as with the saturation.

At this point, when I upgrade to better stuff, I feel it will be outboard gear for me and the Waves will suffice until then.


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## CatComposer (Dec 30, 2021)

Password said:


> Waves saturators I use in order of frequency:
> 
> Abbey road saturator
> Waves SSL G channel strip
> ...


I appreciate your thoughtful reply very much.
I revisited the free Klanghelm plugins yesterday (and one I had already) and was surprised by how good they were (better than I remembered).

I have done more research on the aliasing from Waves plugins, and it seems to have gotten worse with a recent update, so I'm going to be wary of their saturators and compressors (which don't have an oversampling option).
I'm very surprised they haven't added this as a feature, since they must have a ton of revenue, and it's a major flaw in their products.


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## PaulieDC (Dec 30, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> I'm planning to start experimenting with Waves plugins to make my mixes sound more professional and add more life to my orchestral samples.
> Most of my pieces use strings, woodwind, piano, vocal and guitar samples, along with recorded vocals.
> 
> I'm not using drums at all.
> ...


You have no doubt gotten a lot of responses, haven't read the thread, but I've been using Waves stuff since 2014 and have a collection just a few yards short of Mercury. So it's a bit frustrating to say that I decided to invest in Fab Filter's EQs, Compressors, Limiter and Delay this past September, and I'm hooked. Those plugins are so musical, at least to my ears, it's all I will use on my orchestral mixes (once I get to that stage). I didn't get their reverb simply because I'm 100% happy with my Lexicon PCM, although I do have a FabFilter EQ curve I apply to the Lexicon to clean up mud and sizzle.

I used to hear about FabFilter and saw the prices and turned up my nose TBH... huge mistake, they are quite good.

However, with Waves sale, I'd jump on J37, love that tape saturation plugin, especially with the settings on 815 for the Tape type, 7.5 IPS and Bias at +5. It works great on rock & Pop, curious to hear how it affects orchestral... might need to be a Send, not a passthrough.

OH, the F6 Floating Band EQ is really good too, almost forgot about that. Cheaper than the FF multi EQ for sure. the L3 limiters are good also but that series does eat CPU. Obviously it should be on the mixbuss.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 30, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> I have done more research on the aliasing from Waves plugins, and it seems to have gotten worse with a recent update, so I'm going to be wary of their saturators and compressors (which don't have an oversampling option).


Why is the oversampling important?


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## Trash Panda (Dec 30, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Why is the oversampling important?


It’s kinda like the hiss on CSS libraries. Once your ears begin to notice the unpleasant sound of aliasing, you can’t unhear it.


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## CatComposer (Dec 30, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Why is the oversampling important?


It's to avoid hitting the Nyquist limit with the extra harmonics created by the saturation.


Even this free saturation plugin gives oversampling options:








GSat+


GSat+ is free saturation plug-in featuring an incredible saturation algorithm, VU meters, clip protection and over sampling. It was made in association with the admin team at Gearspace.com




www.tbproaudio.de


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 30, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> It's to avoid hitting the Nyquist limit with the extra harmonics created by the saturation.
> 
> 
> Even this free saturation plugin gives oversampling options:
> ...



Fair enough, but I doubt that you'd actually hear the difference. I've never experienced this issue with Kramer Master Tape (which is a Waves saturation plugin).


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## digimortal (Dec 31, 2021)

One more thing to consider outside of (OS) updates and WUP is the Waves resale policy, their plugins are basically on perpetual sale but transfer fee is 5% of the 'list value' and transfers require active WUP.

So let's say for instance you would buy the J37 for 29,99 but decide you want to resell it. If this is within a year after purchase transfer fee would be 14,99, if it's after it loses all resale value as having to upgrade WUP would mean you would sell at a loss.

I think it is smart to try subscription first if you are getting your feet wet in plugins and mixing, besides plugin alliance other options could be:

- Steven Slate bundle, excellent value however for me the virtual mix rack workflow didn't work
- Kush Audio subscription, would highly recommend these if your objectives are vibe and saturation for orchestral music

I personally use Fabfilter for precision and Kush for vibe but having said that I still use some Waves plugins; MV2, R/bass and NS1 are great utilities and I like Reel ADT for the unique effect.


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## CatComposer (Dec 31, 2021)

digimortal said:


> - Steven Slate bundle, excellent value however for me the virtual mix rack workflow didn't work
> - Kush Audio subscription, would highly recommend these if your objectives are vibe and saturation for orchestral music
> 
> I personally use Fabfilter for precision and Kush for vibe but having said that I still use some Waves plugins; MV2, R/bass and NS1 are great utilities and I like Reel ADT for the unique effect.


Kush is a great suggestion!
I have never heard of them before.
I want plugins that will breathe life into the samples and it's good to have your 
personal recommendation.


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## Password (Jan 1, 2022)

This thread got me thinking, and I went and checked out Analogue Obsession, who have free plugins using oversampling as an option on some - and on a vocal where I had 3 waves plugins plus a Klanghelm comp to create 60's style dirt on a clean recording, just one analogue Obsession plugin easily surpassed the previous plug in chain. I've only tried 2 so far, but they are better than the Waves, so I have learned something from this thread, and can recommend them.









Analog Obsession | Creating VST, VST3, AU (WIN / OSX) | Patreon


Become a patron of Analog Obsession today: Get access to exclusive content and experiences on the world’s largest membership platform for artists and creators.




www.patreon.com





the download links become available when you click on the 'more info' link on each plugin description. No need to join, etc.


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## AudioLoco (Jan 18, 2022)

For an easier life.... 

...nothing works as semmlessly as an instance of Waves MV2 on the percussion bus.


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## robgb (Jan 19, 2022)

hessproject said:


> They have a pretty predatory "update plan"


Predatory in what way? I have Waves plugins I bought YEARS ago and have never had to update them. Seems to me they're pretty reliable. And charging for upgrades isn't exactly unheard of in the software business. How often do you get a Pro Tools or Studio One or Cubase update for free? Are they predatory, too? I'm no huge fan of Waves, but this bullshit about their update plan is getting tiring.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 19, 2022)

robgb said:


> And charging for upgrades isn't exactly unheard of in the software business.


True, but not when you’re not actually getting an upgrade….just the same old ancient plugins. Why should I pay $100 just to use a handful of Renaissance plugins from twenty years ago when I already paid a fortune for them years ago?When Steinberg does an update (for example), It’s still not Cubase SX from fifteen years ago, it’s an actual update.


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## storyteller (Jan 19, 2022)

For the over sampling commenters… apparently that is all going to be a thing of the past for Reaper users soon. One of the new native Reaper features in the works is automatic oversampling of plugins. Pretty revolutionary actually…


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## PaulieDC (Jan 19, 2022)

Oh, how could I forget this one:









Fairchild Compressor Plugin: PuigChild 660 & 670 | Waves


Modeled on the legendary Fairchild compressor, the PuigChild 660/670 includes the PuigChild 660 mono Fairchild plugin and PuigChild 670 stereo Fairchild plugin.




www.waves.com





Put that on your mixbuss and load the Drew Lavyne preset. It's subtle but the combination of the embedded code to simulate the actual circuitry of the Fairchild 670 plus the very slight ooomph from the preset lights up presence without any harshness, IMO.


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## hessproject (Jan 20, 2022)

robgb said:


> Predatory in what way? I have Waves plugins I bought YEARS ago and have never had to update them. Seems to me they're pretty reliable. And charging for upgrades isn't exactly unheard of in the software business. How often do you get a Pro Tools or Studio One or Cubase update for free? Are they predatory, too? I'm no huge fan of Waves, but this bullshit about their update plan is getting tiring.


DAW updates add new features (plus I use logic, which updates for free regardless). Pretty much every single plugin I own that isn't Waves updated to m1 for free, for example.


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## robgb (Jan 20, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> True, but not when you’re not actually getting an upgrade….just the same old ancient plugins. Why should I pay $100 just to use a handful of Renaissance plugins from twenty years ago when I already paid a fortune for them years ago?When Steinberg does an update (for example), It’s still not Cubase SX from fifteen years ago, it’s an actual update.





hessproject said:


> DAW updates add new features (plus I use logic, which updates for free regardless). Pretty much every single plugin I own that isn't Waves updated to m1 for free, for example.


There are also upgrades to make it compatible with newer operating systems or hardware—for example Windows 11 and the M1 chips. These kinds of paid upgrades are also common in software. Some charge, some don't. But those that don't also charge a lot more for the original plugin.

Waves has also added some minor upgrades to their GUI, allowing for resizing. It costs a company time and money to make the changes necessary for their products to work with new systems. Why would you expect them to do it for free? Do you work for free?

Sorry, but I just don't get the complaint. Waves plugins are almost always on sale for $29 or less. Having to pay an extra $17 or so for an update every six to ten years doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me, and it certainly isn't predatory.

Now, I'll admit that they do push their updates quite a bit, but it's very easy to ignore them.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 20, 2022)

robgb said:


> There are also upgrades to make it compatible with newer operating systems or hardware—for example Windows 11 and the M1 chips. These kinds of upgrades are also common in software. Waves has also added some minor upgrades to their GUI, allowing for resizing. It costs a company time and money to make the changes necessary for their products to work with new systems. Why would expect them to do it for free? Do you work for free?
> 
> Sorry, but I just don't get the complaint. Waves plugins are almost always on sale for $29 or less. Having to pay an extra $17 or so for an update every six years or so doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.


Waves is the only plug-in company that wants me to pay, just to make them work, on my system....like ever (not even for M1 or Win 11). No skin off my back though, went with developers who actually care about their customer base and perform proper free updates (ie: Fab Filter). I’d gladly swallow my pride and pay $17 for a bundle upgrade, but it’s not that cheap. And like I said, most of my bundle plugins are literally 20 years old, I could care less about the GUI resizing. I’m happy you’re a content Waves customer, just not for me anymore.


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## hessproject (Jan 20, 2022)

robgb said:


> But those that don't also charge a lot more for the original plugin.


That's the predatory part. When you're comparing plugins from 2 developers and you see one for $100 or one for $29 and you go with the $29 only to pay a hidden $100 just to keep the plugins working on your computer which the $100 developer provided for free. Especially when it's more than the cost of the sale plugins. I bought the Diamond bundle a long time ago for $160, and ONE YEAR of update plan for it is $176. With the notable exception of Access Virus, every other piece of plugin software I've owned was updated for compatibility with m1 for free, and for 64bit prior to that, etc.


robgb said:


> Why would you expect them to do it for free? Do you work for free?


Compatibility and customer support has been a built in, expected cost for literally every piece of software I've written in my entire career as a developer


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## robgb (Jan 20, 2022)

hessproject said:


> That's the predatory part. When you're comparing plugins from 2 developers and you see one for $100 or one for $29 and you go with the $29 only to pay a hidden $100 just to keep the plugins working on your computer which the $100 developer provided for free. Especially when it's more than the cost of the sale plugins.


You might have a point if people were actually forced to update their plugins. But they aren't. As I've said, I've been using the same Waves plugins for years. They still work. No updates. Imagine that.


hessproject said:


> I bought the Diamond bundle a long time ago for $160, and ONE YEAR of update plan for it is $176. With the notable exception of Access Virus, every other piece of plugin software I've owned was updated for compatibility with m1 for free, and for 64bit prior to that, etc.


Again, your Diamond bundle will continue to run for years, without any update plan. I have never updated a single Waves plugin. Ever. Despite updating my operating system multiple times. As for the more expensive plugins, clearly that update price is already built in. You're simply paying it up front. So you don't have the choice to say, thanks but no thanks.



hessproject said:


> Compatibility and customer support has been a built in, expected cost for literally every piece of software I've written in my entire career as a developer


And I'm sure the customer paid a pretty price for it right up front instead of having a chance to say no thanks.


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## poly6 (Jan 20, 2022)

Enough already. Can we not have every thread asking about a Waves plugin be taken over by those who want to bash the Waves Update Plan?


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## kro (Jan 20, 2022)

I didn't read all 6 pages... not sure about the current course of discussion, however my most used waves + orchestral are: 

H Reverb
H Delay
Sheps 73 EQ
SSL G Master Buss Comp
R Bass - especially elec gr bass
L1 Ultramaximizer - clipping

occasionally used comps:
CLA 76 
Kramer PIE 
R Vox *vocal


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## Johnny (Jan 20, 2022)

RBass or LowAir... Must have! (Either) I can't do low cinematic percussion or deep synth pads without either plugin if you want to sound "Cinematic" for today's over hyped standards.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 20, 2022)

robgb said:


> You might have a point if people were actually forced to update their plugins


No one is forcing me, but they are literally useless on Big Sur (or later, including M1) unless I pay the ransom to “update” my bundle. The plugins literally stopped working…..until I pay for the magical update. Not gonna happen. And once my Kramer Master Tape and Puig-tec stop working, they’ll be in the plug-in graveyard as well (as much as I love those).


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## JonS (Jan 21, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I've ditched Waves because of the WUP, but still swear buy a couple of plugins....the Puig-Tec EQ and Kramer Mater Tape. Check out this video, it shows Alan Meyerson using a few Waves plugins and how they work.



Not only is the music in this cue absolutely gorgeous and well crafted and recorded, but Alan is so amazing at elevating a mix to another level in ways we all can relate to. This is a must watch video for every composer and engineer!! What a lovely person Alan Meyerson is too, I hope I get to work with him one day.


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## Billy Palmer (Jan 21, 2022)

kro said:


> I didn't read all 6 pages... not sure about the current course of discussion, however my most used waves + orchestral are:
> 
> H Reverb
> H Delay
> ...


I use H-verb quite a lot too. I'm trying to phase out it, to avoid update plan etc.


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## AudioLoco (Jan 21, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> No one is forcing me, but they are literally useless on Big Sur (or later, including M1) unless I pay the ransom to “update” my bundle. The plugins literally stopped working…..until I pay for the magical update. Not gonna happen. And once my Kramer Master Tape and Puig-tec stop working, they’ll be in the plug-in graveyard as well (as much as I love those).


Contact your OS computer manufacturer and ask them to kindly make only backward compatible OS next time so you don't have to pay for plugin manufacturers to put more work in upgrading their own code in order to make their perfectly working plugin to function at all in the new system.

On planet Windows we DO NOT NEED TO UPGRADE at all because Microsoft isn't playing with its system the whole time.
No upgrade for years, everything works 100%.

Waves choose low (ridicoulous prices for professional tools) prices on their plugins plus the WUP system as a business model. They could have chosen to sell plugins for 150$ each and not charge for updates. It's just a business model.
Others go the sub route only - THAT for me is predatory!


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 21, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> Contact your OS computer manufacturer and ask them to kindly make only backward compatible OS next time so you don't have to pay for plugin manufacturers to put more work in upgrading their own code in order to make their perfectly working plugin to function at all in the new system.


Ok, I sent them a message...

"Dear Apple, please fix your OS (not sure what needs to be fixed) so that I can run a few Waves $29 plug-ins from twenty years ago. If you don't, I'm switching back to Windows. So there."


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## AudioLoco (Jan 21, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Ok, I sent them a message...
> 
> "Dear Apple, please fix your OS (not sure what needs to be fixed) so that I can run a few Waves $29 plug-ins from twenty years ago. If you don't, I'm switching back to Windows. So there."


Wow, you haven't heard about Mr. Sarcasm and Ms. Irony?

Obviously Apple don't give a flying s... abut any audio user, they are interested in big number of generic consumers. The problem regarding backwards compatibility with ANY software (not only our 29$ plugins) is at their end though. 
Windows doesn't have this problem (at least from 7 to 10, even the all new W11 is appearently backwards compatible - haven't tried it yet so I can't tell first hand). 
While Apple creates havoc amongst users and coders every time a new feline name comes to haunt them in their sleep. This is very well documented.


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## Akarin (Jan 21, 2022)

Scheps Particles to makes the short strings a tad more aggressive.


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## Consona (Jan 21, 2022)

Sseltenrych said:


> I revisited the free Klanghelm plugins


I revisited my DC8C and MJUC and they sound really good! I have way too many plugins already but amongst all the them I'm reaching for DC8C more and more often now. Its compression sounds so incredibly smooth to me, yet you can get a nice spank out of it. It's also nicely cpu light on my system.


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## SupremeFist (Jan 21, 2022)

I just got the J37. Works really nicely to make the BBCSO brass sizzle a bit more. (YMMV.)


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## IFM (Jan 21, 2022)

Well I'm fine with the update plan and only have needed to do it once and it caps for a ton of plugins. Also nice I can have 2nd licenses for my LV1 rig all tied to the same single update plan when it might be needed again. 

The DBX plugin is a favorite for percussion stuff on my end. API, J37 are sweet as well


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## JonS (Jan 21, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> No one is forcing me, but they are literally useless on Big Sur (or later, including M1) unless I pay the ransom to “update” my bundle. The plugins literally stopped working…..until I pay for the magical update. Not gonna happen. And once my Kramer Master Tape and Puig-tec stop working, they’ll be in the plug-in graveyard as well (as much as I love those).


I am not interested in paying Waves just to update my bundles so they work on the latest OS X so I am still using Mojave so I can use them, but I hear ya and relate.


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## CatComposer (Jan 23, 2022)

I still haven't tried any, as I ended up getting the Presonus Sphere membership which came with a bunch of high quality vintage compressors and EQs.
I got it mainly for the S1 upgrade and included chord track which has improved my workflow tremendously.

I still might try some of the Waves demos though, in particular I'm considering the piano-centric one.


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## Xiaodong Li (Jan 30, 2022)

The only plugin that I couldn't find an alternative is R-Bass.


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## AudioLoco (Jan 31, 2022)

Xiaodong Li said:


> The only plugin that I couldn't find an alternative is R-Bass.


It's the one that truly can never be replaced by anything else (MV2 too is one of those).
There are some good bass enhancement plugins around, but this works magic every time.


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## Xiaodong Li (Jan 31, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> It's the one that truly can never be replaced by anything else (MV2 too is one of those).
> There are some good bass enhancement plugins around, but this works magic every time.


Totally agree! I have not yet seen anything providing such CLEAN bass enhancement like R-bass does. It almost sounds like gluing a separate pure sine with the original signal, I don't know how to explain, it just works!


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## AudioLoco (Jan 31, 2022)

Xiaodong Li said:


> Totally agree! I have not yet seen anything providing such CLEAN bass enhancement like R-bass does. It almost sounds like gluing a separate pure sine with the original signal, I don't know how to explain, it just works!


Yes exactly! It really works on most sources that need enhancement... 
For example, the other bass enhancement plugin I do like is bx_SubSynth, but it works only on percussive elements, forget it on bass for instance - and it needs a lot of tweaking.


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## Nimrod7 (Jan 31, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> Obviously Apple don't give a flying s... abut any audio user, they are interested in big number of generic consumers. The problem regarding backwards compatibility with ANY software (not only our 29$ plugins) is at their end though.


I am not sure what you're suggesting,
Does Apple supposed to stop securing the system and improving the architecture of the OS?
The past updates was focusing of not giving kernel access to random developers, and focusing more on sandboxing the app.

There is a big effort focusing on privacy these days which any app in the past could access your contacts, camera, record your screen or encrypt your files (randsomware).

Stopping evolution is not the way.
Developers need to catchup and update their software, and if the software is build the right way from the beginning and not trying to access stuff it shouldn't, only minimal effort required.

Btw, I have 3 windows machines in the studio, and 4 macs.


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## AudioLoco (Feb 1, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> I am not sure what you're suggesting,
> Does Apple supposed to stop securing the system and improving the architecture of the OS?
> The past updates was focusing of not giving kernel access to random developers, and focusing more on sandboxing the app.
> 
> ...


Your argument is perfectly valid . I agree indeed.

But, why does Mac Os changes with every update in a way that a lot of software is not backward compatible while Microsoft does micro updates all the time but most software is still working without a need for updating? 
It is a genuine doubt.


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