# VSL/Steinberg eLicenser Key Policy



## Zoot_Rollo (Feb 4, 2018)

i've been wondering about VSL's policy on lost, stolen, or damaged keys.

i just got an email from support and they use the jewelry analogy.

basically, insure your key/software.

here's an interesting thread from 2017.

https://vi-control.net/community/forums/sample-talk.32/create-thread

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any VSL customers have an approach to this?

i'd like to know before i invest more.

they also recommend buying a new key every 2 years - the length of the warranty.

from what i understand, this only covers manufacturer defect and not owner damage or theft.


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## heisenberg (Feb 4, 2018)

This thread on page 3 which is linked here is where one the most recent threads on this topic is.

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/whatever-happened-to-vsl.60820/page-3

Essentially, you loose your e-licenser with the VSL keys on it, it will cost you 50% of the purchase price to get your licenses back or essentially re-issued. If you have insurance it might cover it.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 4, 2018)

I can't understand this policy from an otherwise great company, and no one has ever been able to explain it to me.


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## Inceptic (Feb 4, 2018)

Do they charge you 50% of the price of each library or 50% of the price of the dongle?


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## muk (Feb 5, 2018)

Inceptic said:


> Do they charge you 50% of the price of each library or 50% of the price of the dongle?



Each library. Paul from VSL explains the policy in the first post on this page:

https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t42581p3-VSL-LOST-KEY-POLICY?=#post266326

In the last post on the same page he also states that VSL is aware that it is 'the the best policy', and that they are working on presenting an alternative to it. That post is from November, though.


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## Eptesicus (Feb 5, 2018)

The jewelry analogy is stupid on many levels.

Also, these things should have a lifetime warranty. 2 years is stupid, and the suggestion that you should buy a new dongle every two years is contemptible.

It is a horrible policy. One of the many reasons I have not bought many of their products for years. I have bought very few ilok/e-licenser products in recent years simply because of their horrible policies that seem intent on making money out of a paying customers misfortune.


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## awaey (Feb 7, 2018)

Really VSL policy to scary, when i saw this post straight away I bought new key today


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## Symfoniq (Feb 7, 2018)

Eptesicus said:


> The jewelry analogy is stupid on many levels.



It absolutely is, and doubly so when you consider that my insurance company will insure jewelry, but they will not insure an eLicenser key (yes, I've asked).


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## mgpqa1 (Feb 7, 2018)

Here's what I've always wondered... if my eLicenser with VSL licenses dies, who do I send it off to for repairs/replacement... VSL or Steinberg? Moreover, is it better to keep one company per eLicenser to simplify things in the event multiple licenses from multiple companies need to be recovered? E.g., one key for only VSL products, a separate key for only Steinberg products, etc.


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## dzilizzi (Feb 7, 2018)

Wow, I did not know this about VSL. As a hobbyist, they are a little pricey for me. Though really, if I used all the money I've spent on VSTi's over the years, I probably could have bought a good deal of their products. But that is off subject. 

I will not be buying any more of their products with this policy. I have one of the percussion ones. Since I bought it during a 50% off sale, I would be paying full price to replace it. And frankly, I have percussion from others that is as good. 

I broke down and bought iLok insurance through Pace last year when I realized the value of what I would be losing if something happened to my iLok. I've had an iLok for about 10 years without a problem. I update them every so often, but not every two years. But I have never seen insurance for software licenses other than that. I probably would buy it if I did. considering how much I've spent over the years, it would be worth it.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Feb 7, 2018)

I also tried to get my dongles insured, but no company would touch it.


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## JPQ (Apr 17, 2018)

makes me think go mainly dongle free workflow even its pricey very pricey expect i really focus some things.
and saddly only good daw in pc side (which i need speed etc reasons) for my taste is Cubase.


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## antcarrier (Apr 18, 2018)

I'm a big VSL fan, but their dongle policy is ridiculous. I can't find an insurance company that will cover it in Australia either.


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## Michael Antrum (Apr 18, 2018)

The only VSL software I own is VE Pro, which, since you get three licences and it isn't that expensive, I can live with. As I travel a lot, I just cannot put money into any VSL libraries until they sort this out, which is a shame. I just couldn't take the risk.

This issue seems to come up regularly on the forum, and we have the same old arguments about it again and again.

However, what I really don't like to see is how many people have spent money with VSL and not been aware of this policy and are shocked when they finally find out.

If they are going to have this policy, they need to be a bit more transparent about it IMHO.


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## muk (Apr 18, 2018)

As per Paul Steinbauer VSL is working on changing that policy. He wrote that on the VSL forum in winter. I asked back last month, and his reply was 'still working on it'. Let's hope they come up with a better solution soon.


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## leon chevalier (Apr 18, 2018)

I've resold my vsl stuff mainly because of that policy...


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## procreative (Apr 18, 2018)

I only own VEP but a few months back thought I had lost the eLicenser. Normally I leave them in the machines but was tinkering with VEP on my laptop), contacted VSL and did not know I would have to rebuy a new license.

Total stroke of luck, my wife phoned me and said: "did you drop a small blue memory stick? I found it under my car". Really lucky it didnt get run over. Lesson learned and its put me right off these things.


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## wst3 (Apr 18, 2018)

Add me to the list, and I have contacted VSL to let them know my thoughts.

I have the Special Edition Volume 1 and the libraries that came with VEPro. I like them a lot. I was in the midst of wrapping my head around Vienna Instrument Pro when I discovered their key policy. I still play around with the libraries some times, I do like them, but I too am unwilling to invest more in their libraries until this is sorted out.

I'm not going to sell them, I just don't want to depend on them right now.

For VEPro, the cost is low enough that I am willing to gamble because it does improve my work flow.

I am optimistic a solution can be found that makes everyone happy.


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## Shredoverdrive (Apr 18, 2018)

Add me to the list. I bought the VSL SE Woodwinds, and the SE Volume 4(seldom-used instruments are my kryptonite) when on sale and I love them. However, I only really realized what their policy regarding lost, stolen or damaged elicenser was after I had made my purchase. I travel a lot and this makes me too nervous to travel with my key - which means I use the instruments much less than I'd want to. My insurance company doesn't want to hear about this either. Honestly, I think I won't be buying any more of their products because of this, which is stupid because they are very good and they really suit my workflow...


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## Phillip Dixon (Apr 18, 2018)

Shredoverdrive said:


> Add me to the list. I bought the VSL SE Woodwinds, and the SE Volume 4(seldom-used instruments are my kryptonite) when on sale and I love them. However, I only really realized what their policy regarding lost, stolen or damaged elicenser was after I had made my purchase. I travel a lot and this makes me too nervous to travel with my key - which means I use the instruments much less than I'd want to. My insurance company doesn't want to hear about this either. Honestly, I think I won't be buying any more of their products because of this, which is stupid because they are very good and they really suit my workflow...


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## Phillip Dixon (Apr 18, 2018)

Same here
I've broken one before .the one i have now
Is wrapped in gaffer tape.i have a lot of
Hard come by money invested in this 
Piece of easily broken piece of plastic
Its a constant headache


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## micrologus (Apr 18, 2018)

I own several VSL libraries and i like the high quality of sound and software, but since I know this policy I feel scared and now rarely use those libraries... I hope too that VSL will solve this problem.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 18, 2018)

wow. I was thinking of buying VSL cube, but I was not aware of this policy. Its ridiculous. I may wait until they change the policy also.


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## novaburst (Apr 19, 2018)

Well I think VSL have some Strings attached to there policey


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## Chandler (Apr 19, 2018)

I agree with what others have said here. I own SE, but I’m scared to buy more because of this policy.


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## Krayh (Apr 19, 2018)

This is the EXACT reason I never bought and never will buy any vsl library


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## Casiquire (Apr 19, 2018)

I love VSL, but this does worry me to. They have to be hearing all these complaints.


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## muk (Apr 20, 2018)

Yes, in addition to writing in this thread please do write an e-mail to VSL support letting them know about your concerns with their policy. The last stir has been big enough for VSL to announce that they are working on a solution. Can't hurt to let them know that it's still perceived as a problem by many a user.


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## Shredoverdrive (Apr 20, 2018)

muk said:


> Yes, in addition to writing in this thread please do write an e-mail to VSL support letting them know about your concerns with their policy. The last stir has been big enough for VSL to announce that they are working on a solution. Can't hurt to let them know that it's still perceived as a problem by many a user.


Done. Hope it helps.


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## fretti (Apr 20, 2018)

Shredoverdrive said:


> Done. Hope it helps.


I only have the Bösendorfer Imperial (99€ or so it was) so I don't think an email from me would make a huge difference. But when customers who invested a few thousand €/$ write them I think it should make them worry...just imagine you are in the middle of a multi million dollar production and suddenly your elicenser dies...will probably never invest to much money into their products when this happens to you (and as seen with Steinberg it seems to be doable; just "uploaded" my Cubase Pro license, so I hope I'm on the safe site there)...


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## SoNowWhat? (Apr 20, 2018)

novaburst said:


> Well I think VSL have some Strings attached to there policey


Wow, your post adds a whole new Dimension to the discussion.


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## Shredoverdrive (Apr 20, 2018)

omiroad said:


> They said they are working on a new solution.


They just gave me the same answer. And I told them once more it's impossible to get an insurance coverage for the keys.


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## robgb (Apr 20, 2018)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> basically, insure your key/software.





Zoot_Rollo said:


> they also recommend buying a new key every 2 years - the length of the warranty.


This is one of the most egregious business practices in the sample library development world I can think of. I use VSL instruments, but am lucky enough not to have to use a key because I own the Kontakt version of Opus 1, which is still going strong. And I have never "modernized" because of this policy. The idea that I'd have to pay for a whole new license in the event I lost the key is so anti-consumer that I'm surprised it's even permissible by law.


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## fretti (Apr 20, 2018)

SoNowWhat? said:


> Wow, your post adds a whole new Dimension to the discussion.


If it is what I think it is, then chapeau, didn't even think of that one when reading the strings attached post



robgb said:


> This is one of the most egregious business practices in the sample library development world I can think of. I use VSL instruments, but am lucky enough not to have to use a key because I own the Kontakt version of Opus 1, which is still going strong. And I have never "modernized" because of this policy. The idea that I'd have to pay for a whole new license in the event I lost the key is so anti-consumer that I'm surprised it's even permissible by law.


Like your car company telling you to buy a new car when you lose your Key (what a coincidence they use keys too)...can understand that not every company (like Cinematic Studio) let's you re-download lost samples in case of HD/SSD problems entirely free, but a license wich you bought (at least under the impression) of eternal ownership...questionable why it is like that in 2018...


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 20, 2018)

I already wrote them and got a long winded explanation restating what we already know: if your dongle is damaged you have to send it to them and wait for them to check it out and if it all checks out then for a fee of $20 per license they will transfer your licenses to a new dongle and send it to you. Depending on your collection of licenses this means could amount to as much as a few hundred bucks.

If your dongle is lost or stolen then too bad for you but as a courtesy they will resell everything at 50% discount.

Insurance was suggested. I do not think this is an insurable item. Even if it was it is absolutely ludicrous to expect us to have “insure” our software license. I have never in all my years heard of any other software in any industry that would expect such a thing. The very notion that it was being suggested to me came across to me as the peak of arrogance on their part. 

What was explained in the letter is that eLicensor is designed to work like clockwork without ever having to “check in” so to speak so therefore if the dongle is lost or stolen then someone else could obtain the samples and use the stolen product in its entirety. So therefore a lost or stolen dongle is about the same thing as losing an entire car, not just the key to it.

Ok I understand what they are saying from an absolute point of view, but they have not provided any better solution to protect the actual consumers paying them money for their software, instead they have imposed risk and potential additional cost onto the consumer, for a situation that is unlikely to occur often. Consumers are being treated as suspected pirates from the minute they pay for the software.

They say they are working on a solution. Great I will wait until it’s solved then. I find their approach both offensive and unacceptable, especially for the amount of money they are charging.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 20, 2018)

Ps the suggestion from them about having a spare dongle I think was intended for pro users that can’t afford any downtime. Again, an absolutely ludicrous solution to their paranoia.

Replacing the dongle every two years is I guess their idea of how to reduce the possibility of the dongle failing in some way due to faulty hardware. But in my view that would increase the risk of that happening


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## Zoot_Rollo (Apr 20, 2018)

email blitz.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Apr 20, 2018)

VSL is my current library of choice.

i have a meager investment compared to some, i'm sure.

regardless, their licensing approach isn't on my list of happy clowns.

i JUST sent them another e-mail about this, mentioning this thread.

if they address this with a more sane solution, i will add Synchron to my 2018 budget.

if not, i see no path for future VSL purchases like most feel here.


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## Phillip Dixon (Apr 20, 2018)

Christ i feel blackmailed into replacing
My slightley dodgy key....again....


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## fretti (Apr 20, 2018)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> VSL is my current library of choice.
> 
> i have a meager investment compared to some, i'm sure.
> 
> ...


Would be nice to get an actual and lengthy response from them on why they don't do certain things, but still use eLicensers it that way yes!


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 20, 2018)

Frankly I was not aware of this when I purchased vep and I might have held off on that too honestly speaking. At least I now know that I have to be extra careful not to damage or especially not to lose this dongle which so far I had been moving between computers a couple times in a way that I now see as too risky. 

Guess I really like vep but I do not like this policy and will definitely be reconsidering other orch library solutions until further notice


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## Michael Antrum (Apr 20, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Frankly I was not aware of this when I purchased vep and I might have held off on that too honestly speaking. At least I now know that I have to be extra careful not to damage or especially not to lose this dongle which so far I had been moving between computers a couple times in a way that I now see as too risky.
> 
> Guess I really like vep but I do not like this policy and will definitely be reconsidering other orch library solutions until further notice



Don't forget that you get three licences with VE Pro - and it's not too expensive a program anyway. It's the libraries that scare me.....


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## fretti (Apr 20, 2018)

mikeybabes said:


> Don't forget that you get three licences with VE Pro - and it's not too expensive a program anyway. It's the libraries that scare me.....


Don't you also need an eLicenser for every computer connected to your Master PC? Or just one for every start of VE Pro on a computer, meaning you can plug and unplug it for every machine (unless one of course doesn't use a Master-Slave system in ones studio and still uses VE Pro). Don't have it, so I haven't really read into VE Pro yet...


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 20, 2018)

True. And agree about the libraries. I was just teetering in the edge of buying cube std + mirpro + roompacks + instrumentpro, and undoubtedly I would have eventually gotten sucked into the vsl family and purchased many extension libraries if not the cube full outright, not to mention perhaps dimension and/or synchron eventually. I was already a bit nervous about spending that much money but this lost/damaged dongle policy most definitely brings my vsl orch fantasies to a screeching halt


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## Michael Antrum (Apr 20, 2018)

It's one dongle per slave - no dongle needed on the master. So unless you run three slaves, you have some wriggle room with VEPro. Unless, of course, you leave all three licences on the same key......


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 20, 2018)

fretti said:


> Don't you also need an eLicenser for every computer connected to your Master PC? Or just one for every start of VE Pro on a computer, meaning you can plug and unplug it for every machine (unless one of course doesn't use a Master-Slave system in ones studio and still uses VE Pro). Don't have it, so I haven't really read into VE Pro yet...



I only have one dongle at the moment so I was moving it between my laptop and macpro. I don’t have any slaves yet. Will get another dongle for the laptop, though I really hate having it sticking out of the side of my MacBook pro and my odds of losing or damaging that dongle are high


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 20, 2018)

fretti said:


> Don't you also need an eLicenser for every computer connected to your Master PC? Or just one for every start of VE Pro on a computer, meaning you can plug and unplug it for every machine (unless one of course doesn't use a Master-Slave system in ones studio and still uses VE Pro). Don't have it, so I haven't really read into VE Pro yet...



Regarding your questions I believe the license is tied to the dongle and will work in any machine you plug it into. That’s one of the few advantages of dongles.

You need a license in order to run the vep server, which could be on a slave machine or could be on the same machine as your daw. 

If you are running it on a slave then the other machine with your daw doesn’t need a license in order to just the vep plugin inside the daw, but if you also want to run vep server on the daw machine then you need a license there too. The licenses are attached to the dongle so yes you could move a single license around to different machines using the same dongle, it can only run in one of them at a time


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## StatKsn (Apr 20, 2018)

robgb said:


> This is one of the most egregious business practices in the sample library development world I can think of.



Well, it is not just software synth/sampler industry. I never heard of any other case that requires the user to insure their license (or even require user to buy new dongle every once in a while) from at the least 80's. Maybe you can get the whole studio/house insured, but I am pretty sure no one will insure a software license. Honestly, "Insure your license" sounds like an improvised defense rather than something thought out.

I think it is kind of archaic that a physical dongle is still required with eLicenser though.

Professional graphics software industry used to throw a lot of unique dongle per product but it's 99% software-based protection today (well, even iLok is virtually a software-based solution now). However, graphics software gets updated often and having to pay for an update after a certain period is common, hence it's somewhere between "ordinary buy" and subscription. Even fonts industry does subscription nowadays!

Maybe VSL could offer paid additional content periodically, or some kind of a subscription service, rather than expecting people to pay a tax out of fear.


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## Phillip Dixon (Apr 20, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> I only have one dongle at the moment so I was moving it between my laptop and macpro. I don’t have any slaves yet. Will get another dongle for the laptop, though I really hate having it sticking out of the side of my MacBook pro and my odds of losing or damaging that dongle are high


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## Phillip Dixon (Apr 20, 2018)

As far as i am aware you can only have
Your licences on one key at a time
If you drag your licences to new key
The other is then obsolete


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 20, 2018)

Yes one license can be used in one place at a time. It is installed onto a dongle. The dongle can be moved to different computers as needed.

Vep comes with three licenses that can be saved to three dongles


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## robgb (Apr 20, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Vep comes with three licenses that can be saved to three dongles


At the low low price of what? $30 a piece? What a bargain.


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## robgb (Apr 20, 2018)

omiroad said:


> eLicenser hasn't been.


Do a Google search. Many are claiming it has been.


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## StatKsn (Apr 20, 2018)

omiroad said:


> Software based protection tends to get cracked very quickly



Yes, hence I inserted my explanation of why the professional graphics software industry is fine with software-based solutions (update/subscription - most developers are treating software like a service rather than an one-time product).

This is just my personal opinion, but "as a service" business model might ultimately be more constructive than torturing customers. I'd rather pay for a subscription (that adds content) than license protection fees (that adds nothing)...


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## Phillip Dixon (Apr 20, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Yes one license can be used in one place at a time. It is installed onto a dongle. The dongle can be moved to different computers as needed.
> 
> Vep comes with three licenses that can be saved to three dongles


Yes great if you just use Vep
Just totted up what ive got comes to over
£4000 .. small change some might say
but i wont be spending any more..
I love spitfire stuff


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 20, 2018)

I don't want to be forced into a subscription model either.


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## Casiquire (Apr 20, 2018)

Honestly, I'd be fine with a monthly online check-in option. If the check-in doesn't occur the licenses expire from the dongle automatically and come back to your account. Problem solved.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 20, 2018)

as would I, but you know what would happen, some working pros would end up with some problem where the network phone-home didn't work because some service isn't running or bad network or something and their VSL stuff would stop working and that would not be good. VSL needs to ensure that once its up and working, it will keep on working and very very unlikely to ever have it not work due to licensing related stuff.. Its part of the consideration why they are basically saying, the dongle will just work no questions asked...just don't ever lose or damage your dongle. hehe


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 20, 2018)

a better solution I think would be occasional phone-home events that do not disable the software, but simply inform VSL where the license is being used. Basically if you lose or damage your dongle, you should be able to call them up and say "hey, my bad, I ran over my dongle, please help". They should be able to look up your account, see your license, see the place it is being run and say sure no problem, buy a new dongle and we'll let you activate your license there FOR FREE. Then they can disable the old license permanently. If anyone ever tries to use the old license somehow then eventually they will find out. What they do if they find out? They call you up, not disable your stuff from working.


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## Casiquire (Apr 20, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> as would I, but you know what would happen, some working pros would end up with some problem where the network phone-home didn't work because some service isn't running or bad network or something and their VSL stuff would stop working and that would not be good. VSL needs to ensure that once its up and working, it will keep on working and very very unlikely to ever have it not work due to licensing related stuff.. Its part of the consideration why they are basically saying, the dongle will just work no questions asked...just don't ever lose or damage your dongle. hehe


Well surely it would warn you before that happens. Let's say a week long grace period and a little notification


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## SoNowWhat? (Apr 20, 2018)

Don’t want to talk out of turn as I have no VSL libraries. However, I was under the impression that pro users prefer to have their working system completely offline for security reasons. So anything requiring periodic check-ins over internet may be problematic. Maybe I’m not across the details and have misunderstood because as I said, I don’t use VSL. And FWIW, I’m not likely to unless this licensing protocol changes. There are too many good options out there now for me to take on the devs risk as well as my own.


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## Zak Rahman (Apr 20, 2018)

I wonder how long it will take before we start having to validate libraries with retinal scans or finger prints?

And how much longer after that we'll get composers selling their fingers and eyes on as part of the market place hehehe.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Apr 20, 2018)

Zak Rahman said:


> I wonder how long it will take before we start having to validate libraries with retinal scans or finger prints?
> 
> And how much longer after that we'll get composers selling their fingers and eyes on as part of the market place hehehe.



note to self:

add disclaimer to sig.


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## Zak Rahman (Apr 20, 2018)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> note to self:
> 
> add disclaimer to sig.




His excited eyes from within the dark interior glazed;
watered in appreciation of his thoughtful preparation...
OF VALIDATING HIS NEWEST SAMPLE LIBRARY. The latest 700 piece string orchestra from 8DIO ULTIMASTERUM


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## Zoot_Rollo (Apr 20, 2018)

Zak Rahman said:


> His excited eyes from within the dark interior glazed;
> watered in appreciation of his thoughtful preparation...
> OF VALIDATING HIS NEWEST SAMPLE LIBRARY. The latest 700 piece string orchestra from 8DIO ULTIMASTERUM



no comment


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## SoNowWhat? (Apr 20, 2018)

Zak Rahman said:


> His excited eyes from within the dark interior glazed;
> watered in appreciation of his thoughtful preparation...
> OF VALIDATING HIS NEWEST SAMPLE LIBRARY. The latest 700 piece string orchestra from 8DIO ULTIMASTERUM


This thread has gone very dark, very quickly. 

No complaints, just an observation.


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## 667 (Apr 20, 2018)

The simple solution is for iLok to support encryption (password unlocking). You do it once at the start of the session and it unlocks your licenses. Maybe it's configurable, stores an auth doc on your hdd that's good for 30/60/90/whatever days. Prompts for password again once expires. So even if someone steals your Laptop + iLok, they can only use it for a few days (and mine they would be locked out at OS layer (encrypted hdd) so the iLok would be useless to them).

I would live with this 100% if it meant not getting screwed over a lost or stolen iLok. But PACE is disincentivized to make this because they sell insurance (ZDT) so I expect it to be available never.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Apr 20, 2018)

667 said:


> The simple solution is for iLok to support encryption (password unlocking). You do it once at the start of the session and it unlocks your licenses. Maybe it's configurable, stores an auth doc on your hdd that's good for 30/60/90/whatever days. Prompts for password again once expires. So even if someone steals your Laptop + iLok, they can only use it for a few days (and mine they would be locked out at OS layer (encrypted hdd) so the iLok would be useless to them).
> 
> I would live with this 100% if it meant not getting screwed over a lost or stolen iLok. But PACE is disincentivized to make this because they sell insurance (ZDT) so I expect it to be available never.



it's eLicenser, but still applies.


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## Casiquire (Apr 20, 2018)

667 said:


> The simple solution is for iLok to support encryption (password unlocking). You do it once at the start of the session and it unlocks your licenses. Maybe it's configurable, stores an auth doc on your hdd that's good for 30/60/90/whatever days. Prompts for password again once expires. So even if someone steals your Laptop + iLok, they can only use it for a few days (and mine they would be locked out at OS layer (encrypted hdd) so the iLok would be useless to them).
> 
> I would live with this 100% if it meant not getting screwed over a lost or stolen iLok. But PACE is disincentivized to make this because they sell insurance (ZDT) so I expect it to be available never.



It's highly unlikely that the problem is a stolen licenser. It's much more likely the problem is they don't want people sharing or intentionally distributing the licenser.

As for people with offline systems, they need to come online to get new software in the first place. Also I did specify that people would have the "option" to do this. They can opt out, and they're likely to have their whole workstations and all their software insured anyway.


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## novaburst (Apr 21, 2018)

Hello Matteo, 

This is the current situation with eLicenser: 

Generally, the most valuable part of our products is the license which is stored on the ViennaKey or other eLicenser USB Key. With our copy protection partner eLicenser (owned by Steinberg / Yamaha), we don't have access to the licenses on the keys of our users, so we're not able to restore and/or transfer any lost or stolen license to a new key. Also, it's technically not possible to disable the licenses or the key via remote. This means that whoever steals or finds a key can use the contained license without any restrictions, if he also has access to the samples, and software, e.g., from a friend.

Users who lost the key (or whose key has been stolen) will have to purchase a new license, and of course a new key. What we can offer uninsured users to meet them halfway in this situation is a replacement license at the reduced price of 50% of the full price of the licensed product(s).
Every user is responsible for his keys and licenses himself, we're not obliged to replace any lost or stolen keys at all, like e.g. lost or stolen jewelry wouldn't be replaced unless it's insured. That's why we recommend to insure all products you licensed.

In case a ViennaKey is damaged, users have to send it to our office in Vienna (American users: to the office of our distributor ILIO based in California) to enable us to take a look at the kind of the damage.
If the damage on the ViennaKey shows signs of external force, he will of course have to pay for the new ViennaKey, and a handling fee for the new licenses (EUR 20 per contained license, minimum fee EUR 30). If a ViennaKey is registered to a user account, it's a lot easier for us to find out which licenses were stored on the Key.
If the ViennaKey breaks within the warranty period (two years) without extraneous cause, the user gets a new ViennaKey and the new license free of charge if he can verify the warranty period by sending us the invoice of the purchase of the ViennaKey or other eLicenser USB Key. That's why we recommend to purchase a new key every two years and to keep the invoice at a safe place.

The quickest and easiest temporary solution in a case like this is to buy a new ViennaKey or other eLicenser USB Key. After registration of the new key, we can send you a demo license which enables you to bridge at least some time (48 hours) until the order of the replacement license is processed, which usually takes 1-3 business days once we’ve received the broken key. Of course it's not a bad idea to have a spare key in your studio, to ensure that you have no downtime at all in the event of a lost or broken key.



Best, 
Paul


If you damage an out of warranty licence it will cost you the price of a new dongle, and handling fees, its optional if you want to purchase a dongle every two years. just to get a free dongle if its damaged.

this is a factor that perhaps happens more often than a lost or stolen dongle,

Its very clear of the reasons why a lost or stolen dongle will cost 50% of the purchase price, just read the first paragraph,

We don't hear of this issues often or I haven't in the last few years, that a dongle has been stolen or lost its a bit out of the norm, but yet we see wining and griming and sliming and slamming over the VSL policy.

but I am sure users have had there old dongle for many years passing from new PC to new build PC or Mac with out ever changing it once for a new one, and I am sure it will be used for many more years before they get a new dongle.

If your dongle is stolen perhaps you need to worry about more pressing matters because if it was stolen from your apartment the thieve would have stolen much more that your PC or laptop or Mac for that matter and probably have done harm to you or members of your house hold too.

if it is stolen in your car, well you perhaps need to worry about where your car is first, if at a venue or on top of a maintain, in the swimming pool...........you see we might as well say these silly things of how a dongle may be stolen because its something that does not happen to often or never in our life time and if it does you will need to worry about other things that got stolen with the dongle.

A lost dongle ........ come on guys really.... do you lose your mobile phone often but yet your carry it around every day, what about your house keys, car keys do you lose them often, driving licence, bank card, credit card, wallet, cash, how often do you lose those things but yet you all wine on a plastic dongle that more often than most stays at the back of your machine, ......get real people


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## Phillip Dixon (Apr 21, 2018)

novaburst said:


> Hello Matteo,
> 
> This is the current situation with eLicenser:
> 
> ...


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## richhickey (Apr 21, 2018)

novaburst said:


> Hello Matteo,
> 
> A lost dongle ........ come on guys really.... do you lose your mobile phone often but yet your carry it around every day, what about your house keys, car keys do you lose them often, driving licence, bank card, credit card, wallet, cash, how often do you lose those things but yet you all wine on a plastic dongle that more often than most stays at the back of your machine, ......get real people



If I lose my house key or car key I can get a new one made for the cost of a key, not the cost of a house or a car. I have lost a car key before, as I'm sure others have.

It is VSL that have co-aligned a customer relationship worth perhaps thousands of dollars with the continuing successful possession and operation of a small, cheap piece of plastic and the rather tenuous licenser software that manages it. There are alternatives that don't treat your customers like criminals.

Rule of #1 of business - customers. Rule #2 - see #1.

In short, VSL's answer here is not good enough and your customers are telling you so.

I have spent thousands on VSL before learning of this policy, but I won't spend any more.


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## Phillip Dixon (Apr 21, 2018)

mine broke because as you say; it sticks out at the back of your machine[ springer spaniel and tennis ball]
luckily a bit of gaffer tape and a dozen or so attempts ,it worked long enough to allow me to transfer to new key
i love vsl stuff and have made quite a large investment over the years , but this shit does happen ,and its just
one more thing to stress about so i guess its subjective , a world without dongles would be ideal, but its the customers choice ps i'm not whining i have better things to do respectfully phill


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## fretti (Apr 21, 2018)

richhickey said:


> Rule of #1 of business - customers. Rule #2 - see #1.


Would love though if all companies see it that way...(not directing at VSL or music companies, it is something that applies to every product (area)).
+1 to the rest


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## StatKsn (Apr 21, 2018)

I think analogies like car/jewelry is a bit off because the audio software industry is sizable and mature enough to be talked by itself - a software is a software :[]

And in this case, VSL's policy is quite punishing all the way compared to most other audio developers out there. From my experience and what I've heard, most developers (Steinberg, iLok and non-iLok) are happy to send you a replacement license upon request without asking you to send a damaged dongle (to prove you are innocent) let alone pay for it. You would probably be asked to show them a receipt to validate with their database, but that's all.

I guess most developers are fine with honor system because a scenario like "A customer who paid a few thousand $s and have their personal information/CC# handed attempts to pirate the library by asking them a new license for losing the dongle" is pretty unrealistic, and potential damage will be limited to just one license.


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## wst3 (Apr 21, 2018)

I have an issue with customers telling a business how to operate their business. Not sure why, but that has always annoyed me. It is their business, to do with as they see fit.

On the other hand, my studio is my business, and I am free to do with it as I see fit.

On the third hand, while it might feel good to just say the heck with VSL and move on, as a customer, and one that likes the products I have purchased, it seems to be in my enlightened best interest to at least share with them the reason I won't be purchasing any new libraries while the current policy is in place. If we had all stayed quiet this conversation would not be happening!

On the fourth hand (if only<G>), I've worked in software development, and IT security, and I am well aware of just how rampant piracy is. And how difficult it will be to mold opinions to respect the intellectual property rights of others.

It is great, I think, that so many folks are sharing their opinions here, and privately with VSL. I think it is promising that VSL is acknowledging the backlash. It'd be even better if they offered a roadmap to a better solution, but as things stand now at least we know that they know.

I want them to stay in business. I want to stay in business, and I want to maintain access to the tools I have licensed. We aren't at the meeting of the minds yet, but seems like we are headed there.


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 21, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Consumers are being treated as suspected pirates from the minute they pay for the software.



Rules are rules.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Apr 21, 2018)

response to my recent email,

Thanks for your mail!

We are indeed working on a possible solution, which will be announced when it is available.
We are relying on the possibilities eLicenser/ Steinberg is providing us with, and we are very hopeful that this solution will work.

Until this has been tested in all detail, we cannot and will not announce any details, to avoid confusion and disappointment.

Best regards,

Paul Kopf


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 21, 2018)

I am not worried about my elicensor being stolen, VSL is worried about that. I am worried about mine being lost, which is absolutely a possibility, especially with my laptop. I am also worried about it being damaged. The most likely scenario is that it gets damaged, the second most likely scenario is it could get lost. 

What VSL worries is that we users will report it lost and then give it to a friend, in effect that WE would be the thieves stealing it that way.

I will not buy another VSL product until this situation is rectified. Simple as that. Hope they will.


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## novaburst (Apr 21, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> I will not buy another VSL product until this situation is rectif



Well buy something else and get on with your life , its that simple


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## Shredoverdrive (Apr 21, 2018)

novaburst said:


> A lost dongle ........ come on guys really.... do you lose your mobile phone often but yet your carry it around every day, what about your house keys, car keys do you lose them often, driving licence, bank card, credit card, wallet, cash, how often do you lose those things but yet you all wine on a plastic dongle that more often than most stays at the back of your machine, ......get real people





novaburst said:


> Well buy something else and get on with your life , its that simple



Is the patronizing tone necessary? You made your point. Besides, Vienna says they're working on something. It means they acknowledge the problem. Now, we wait.

Edit : spelling.


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## novaburst (Apr 21, 2018)

Shredoverdrive said:


> Is the patronizing tone necessary? You made your point. Besides, Vienna says they're working on something. It means they acknowledge the problem. Now, we wait.
> 
> Edit : spelling.



What you waiting for, you seem to think VSL are the only orchestral library's in the world, there are tons of options so why must it be the VSL developer please tell me, or make me understand because right now I don't no what the craze is about, 

I go for VSL because I think they develop great stuff not because of a policy that may never happen in my life time and if it did tuff luck


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## Shredoverdrive (Apr 21, 2018)

novaburst said:


> What you waiting for, you seem to think VSL are the only orchestral library's in the world, there are tons of options so why must it be the VSL developer please tell me, or make me understand because right now I don't no what the craze is about,
> 
> I go for VSL because I think they develop great stuff not because of a policy that may never happen in my life time and if it did tuff luck


Good for you. This thread has been, I guess, started by people who really like VSL, too. It doesn't mean things can't be improved.


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## novaburst (Apr 21, 2018)

Shredoverdrive said:


> Good for you. This thread has been, I guess, started by people who really like VSL, too. It doesn't mean things can't be improved.



Not true, the thread was started about Developer policy, if your telling me you cant take care of a dongle then you need to get something with out a dongle.

How long have people been using VEpro how long have they been using it with a dongle has anyone lost it or does it get stolen from VEpro 4 to 5 and now VEpro 6 and still going strong with out a stolen and lost or damaged dongle but yet you scream and shout oh my it might happen if I start to get VSL library, do you know how foolish that sounds.
if you don't like a developer policy there is no real reason to purchase from them its that simple, there are thousands that understand VSL policy and still purchase from them,

What are you saying that you must take your dongle out and about to use, you saying you cant keep it at the back of your machine and leave it there is that what your saying to me.

The reason why people use VEpro is because its a need for Single and server machines for power efficiency.
If you really needed VSL library's that policy want stop you from getting them.

If your unhappy with Developer policy as I said before there are tons of options and no need to stress your self out over policy ....... get over it


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## fretti (Apr 21, 2018)

novaburst said:


> What you waiting for, you seem to think VSL are the only orchestral library's in the world, there are tons of options so why must it be the VSL developer please tell me, or make me understand because right now I don't no what the craze is about,



It may never occur. But the pure possibility deters some people of investing more. Maybe they don't want to change to different companies because they love VSL products. Maybe they already have so much of VSL that they don't see it as pleasant to now start "all over" again with different products (and money...).
Nothing wrong with speaking out about something you disagree with. I haven't seen anyone here insulting VSL or its employees. They work on a solution, because they listened to their customers (and maybe some posts in this thread).

But just saying that when people don't like a policy they should buy somewhere else when have invested a huge amounts of money is neither fair to these people nor to VSL (who depends on those customers). If this helps to make the products or the policy fairer and better for anyone then it certainly has its right to exist.
In the end, people are happy when VSL introduces changes, and are happy to invest more because this uncertainty for them is "out of the way". VSL is happy because people are now more willing to invest even more amounts of money. And people can still use the products they love...win win I'd say.


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## Casiquire (Apr 21, 2018)

Wow. Someone steals something out of your car and it's your fault now. Interesting.

I got mugged at gunpoint. Could easily have had my laptop with me that day. Let's talk about how that was my fault, shall we?


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## Shredoverdrive (Apr 21, 2018)

novaburst said:


> Not true, the thread was started about Developer policy, if your telling me you cant take care of a dongle then you need to get something with out a dongle.
> 
> How long have people been using VEpro how long have they been using it with a dongle has anyone lost it or does it get stolen from VEpro 4 to 5 and now VEpro 6 and still going strong with out a stolen and lost or damaged dongle but yet you scream and shout oh my it might happen if I start to get VSL library, do you know how foolish that sounds.
> if you don't like a developer policy there is no real reason to purchase from them its that simple, there are thousands that understand VSL policy and still purchase from them,
> ...



Your meaningless aggressivity is wearing my patience out. I'll let you to it.


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## Michael Antrum (Apr 21, 2018)

Well, VSL seem to think it worth investigating an alternative approach. I do hope they come up with something.

In every other way they are a top notch developer. They allow you to resell your libraries, and even offer a 30 day refund policy on libraries. They must be congratulated for that at least.

If they do get this sorted out - then I think it will make them the most customer friendly developer out there.

But for now, as someone who has to travel a great deal - I could not take the risk.


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## novaburst (Apr 21, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> Wow. Someone steals something out of your car and it's your fault now. Interesting.
> 
> I got mugged at gunpoint. Could easily have had my laptop with me that day. Let's talk about how that was my fault, shall we?



Sorry to hear about your experience I truly am.

I was just a little annoyed why people feel they must purchase VSL when other options are around, or why people want to hold the developer to ransom because of a policy again when other options are around
Why it has to be an issue when other options are there, even to the point if you have VSL items you can even resell them and stop your dongle use all together.

When talking about gun point robbery, or house burring down we are talking at the extreme end of disaster, and even then you may not lose your VSL dongle, my tuff luck statement was really in light that its really difficult to happen to brake or have your dongle stolen or lose it in light of the every day things we do credit card, cash, keys, mobile phone we do these things habits for years with out losing them or damage or get them stolen.

We are talking about something that must and should be left inside or at the back of your machine its not a USB stick to carry every where you want its a big part of your studio so leave it where it is safe and where it want get damaged.

What people are really saying to VSL is if I don't take care of my dongle I want to know that I can get a free license back so change your policy.

Because if you do take care of your dongle it will serve you a very long time, just ask how many times Cubase owners have changed there dongle, or VEpro users, or VSL library users how many times does this happen except for very rare and unusual circumstances.

So yes I will purchase VSL again and again with there policy intact because I know and understand that you should take care of the things that matter, I keep it safe not because of the VSL policy but because its important to me to do so, 

So very sorry about the tuff luck statement.


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## Zak Rahman (Apr 21, 2018)

novaburst said:


> I was just a little annoyed why people feel they must purchase VSL when other options are around, or why people want to hold the developer to ransom because of a policy again when other options are around



I agree that being hyper aggressive is almost never the solution to any situation. Certainly no situation that's relevant to what we're doing.

As someone who's looking to start investing, this topic will definitely affect who or what I end up investing in. I'm one individual, VSL don't give a rat's ass if they get my business or not - I get this.

But, I'm not the only one who will make a decision to not go with VSL based on current information. So if 9 other people decide the same thing, then suddenly, that's a significant loss of potential revenue for them.

Obviously, I'm in no position to make demand on VSL, nor would I. It is their business, you're right.

I am also very happy that VSL is also aware of this and has said that they're thinking about a solution. Kudos to them.

I have the feeling that VSL would probably be a great solution for what I want to do and how I want to work. But companies who are willing to try something new are often rewarded for it.

Take Xfer Serum as an example. Their rent-to-own structure has been fantastic for both them and the community. It cuts down a lot of piracy, and it puts an extremely powerful tool in the hands of kids who just can't afford the lump sum. At zero percent interest, I felt like that was a really positive step for a developer to take. Something that takes into account real life for a lot of musicians - not just established professionals.

Anyway, while there's some anger around (inevitable when people feel wronged), I do think it's a bit much to say that VSL are being held 'ransom' to it by the community.

You're cool with the current policy - more power to you. But I think even you have to admit that changes to this have the potential to benefit you too. You may never lose your dongle, but other things can go wrong. Maybe there's a loose bit of soldering inside the dongle waiting to ruin your life? Maybe you'll get a freak power surge or something? There's stuff that can take the dongle away from you despite you being careful. If such changes go ahead, then you will benefit from them too.

VSL are an established and successful company. They don't need people fighting their corner 

I really don't get a feeling of 'us' vs 'them' here.


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## novaburst (Apr 21, 2018)

mikeybabes said:


> But for now, as someone who has to travel a great deal - I could not take the risk.



Travelling around is with a dongle is kind of asking for trouble, I would certainly take on other ways to do music projects with out dongle use if I was travelling a lot, your almost admitting that it is very risky and your willingness to be risky if policy was changed,

That's a strange way to act simply because now you get it for free your prepared to take risk. 

We do have a responsibility to use common sense, if we understand that something is risky we don't do it. 

You should perhaps use the method your using now that is just stay away from VSL and dongles I am sure you and everyone else are getting along quite fine without VSL so why would you want to change, what happened or why the sudden loss of interest in your existing librarys why all of a sudden VSL has become such an interesting library to you and for that matter why does everyone all of a sudden want VSL librarys what's wrong with what you are using or what's wrong with the options that are available. 

Please please please make me understand why you don't take the options that are available to you what is wrong with them why can't you get off the VSL case and spend your. cash else where why wait for VSL to change there policey before you can do music can you explain that to me or can anyone explain that to me.

what's so special about VSL why you want there library so bad are not the options good enough for you, are your existing librarys not holding up to your needs please In lighten me

Why does everyone suddenly only want VSL library in there project why do you want to give VSL all your cash and it really sounds like you are all desperate to have VSL like nothing else will do so why is that.


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## Phillip Dixon (Apr 21, 2018)

novaburst said:


> Travelling around is with a dongle is kind of asking for trouble, I would certainly take on other ways to do music projects with out dongle use if I was travelling a lot, your almost admitting that it is very risky and your willingness to be risky if policy was changed,
> 
> That's a strange way to act simply because now you get it for free your prepared to take risk.
> 
> ...


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## Phillip Dixon (Apr 21, 2018)

Shit ...you still banging on about this
Have you got shares in vsl take a break
Pal......


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## Zoot_Rollo (Apr 21, 2018)

sorry i brought it up.


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## StatKsn (Apr 21, 2018)

Personally, I got my dongle broken twice in my life (one is iLok 2 which I had to refrigerate to rescue the licenses) while I had it plugged in all the time without ever touching it. They just die all of sudden like any other hardware. And you can't replace it nor have a backup, unlike other usual hardware.

I am not feeling safe with dongles at all. So yes, I am getting rid of dongle from my life and am not using any VSL product anymore :[


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## Casiquire (Apr 21, 2018)

Your tone in responding sounds sincere and gracious. We got a bit heated in here but that's ok, sorry for escalating a bit! That's not normally my style either, or yours if memory serves.

Traveling isn't asking for trouble, being a mobile composer is very much a thing today. People travel all around and do recordings and the technology to accommodate for that exists. Companies need to adapt. iLok adapted a bit, and if Steinberg isn't careful someone else will jump in with a better solution and they'll be left in the dust. They'd do well from a business standpoint to see the way the wind is blowing.

I think your suggestion Novaburst, that people should buy from someone else if this is an issue, is really the heart of this thread. We're getting a good indication of just how large that crowd might be.

My bias here is that I adore VSL, so the further I go down their rabbit hole the more personal this situation feels!


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## antcarrier (Apr 21, 2018)

novaburst said:


> Please please please make me understand why you don't take the options that are available to you what is wrong with them why can't you get off the VSL case and spend your. cash else where why wait for VSL to change there policey before you can do music can you explain that to me or can anyone explain that to me.
> 
> what's so special about VSL why you want there library so bad are not the options good enough for you, are your existing librarys not holding up to your needs please In lighten me
> 
> Why does everyone suddenly only want VSL library in there project why do you want to give VSL all your cash and it really sounds like you are all desperate to have VSL like nothing else will do so why is that.



VSL libraries are unique and are better suited to certain workflows, or styles of music. Being recorded dry is a huge bonus for many and adds an insane amount of versatility. Personally, I have very little interest in most other libraries.
That doesn't mean that this policy doesn't suck.

The noise surrounding the policy simply happens because we want VSL to listen. It's just like if the software had a glaring bug, we would hope for it to be resolved and request that they do so. I have taken the risk and bought VSL, but I think it is completely fair enough that people decide to not buy VSL products because of this policy.

I came close to buying Vienna Suite when it was on sale, but the main reason I didn't was because I want to keep the value of my dongle to a minimum, in case of unexpected circumstances. Thankfully, in the fx department, vienna suite is less unique than their sample libraries - so I can stay dongle free in the plugin department. Except for MIR - MIR is amazing.


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## MatFluor (Apr 22, 2018)

Well - it's harsh for sure.

But I'm not hard against the policy myself...I mean:

If your Key gets lost or stolen: 50% of the libraries prices
If your Key is damaged within the warranty period: Free of charge or (if external force damaged it) price of a new dongle+license handling fee/license
If your Key is damaged outside warranty period: 50% of the libraries prices

Doesn't sound too harsh to me...Sure it could be solved differently, but every two years $30/Key and in case shit hits the fan and the key breaks, it's free of charge, just send it to them....


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## antcarrier (Apr 22, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> Well - it's harsh for sure.
> 
> But I'm not hard against the policy myself...I mean:
> 
> ...



Being required to buy a new dongle every 2 years is just wasteful, and frankly, stupid.


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## MatFluor (Apr 22, 2018)

antcarrier said:


> Being required to buy a new dongle every 2 years is just wasteful, and frankly, stupid.



Wasteful, completely agree.

Stupid? not so much - I mean - you do a lot things that are similar...sharpening your knifes, car service, heads for your toothbrush or toothbrush themselves, razorblades

A dongle is not that much different, as long as it enables you to continue working. I mean - you should replace your harddrives and other PC components as well every once in a while.


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## antcarrier (Apr 22, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> Wasteful, completely agree.
> 
> Stupid? not so much - I mean - you do a lot things that are similar...sharpening your knifes, car service, heads for your toothbrush or toothbrush themselves, razorblades
> 
> A dongle is not that much different, as long as it enables you to continue working. I mean - you should replace your harddrives and other PC components as well every once in a while.



The difference here is that you replace or maintain these items for performance reasons, and so it is logical to do so. There is no logical reason to be required to replace a dongle while it still functions, purely to extend the warranty. There is no physical reason why this should be necessary.


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## fretti (Apr 22, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> Well - it's harsh for sure.
> 
> But I'm not hard against the policy myself...I mean:
> 
> ...



*6. Loss of the ViennaKey*
Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH assumes no liability or obligation if the ViennaKey or any other eLicenser USB protection device holding one or more Vienna Symphonic Library Licenses is mislaid as a result of loss, theft or otherwise. *Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH reserves the right to block its Licenses saved on the lost ViennaKey or on any other lost USB eLicenser upon being notified by the registered user of the loss.* Lost or stolen Licenses cannot be replaced free of charge by Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH.

Seems possible for them to block the licenses on a key. So 50% is a little harsh I think...it's not like you can just give the key to a friend and ask them for a new one, when they block it.
A fee for (re)activating licenses seems fair (as there sit people working to make that possible).
That you can send your key in and they check it seems fair.


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## MatFluor (Apr 22, 2018)

fretti said:


> *6. Loss of the ViennaKey*
> Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH assumes no liability or obligation if the ViennaKey or any other eLicenser USB protection device holding one or more Vienna Symphonic Library Licenses is mislaid as a result of loss, theft or otherwise. *Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH reserves the right to block its Licenses saved on the lost ViennaKey or on any other lost USB eLicenser upon being notified by the registered user of the loss.* Lost or stolen Licenses cannot be replaced free of charge by Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH.
> 
> Seems possible for them to block the licenses on a key. So 50% is a little harsh I think...it's not like you can just give the key to a friend and ask them for a new one, when they block it.
> ...



Yes, of course - a stolen or lost key is your fault - and it's nice of them to make it 50% and not "buy a new license for full price". I mean - if your gun gets stolen and somebody gets shot with your gun, it's your fault too (I know, not an entirely nice allegory, but you get what I mean). That's how it's handled currently.

Of course, TOS-style, they reserve the right to block - meaning like insurance fraud - you give your key illegally to a friend and report it stolen. When they have something to think that you might have done exactly that, they just block the license and you get a new one for 50% off. That's what I said above as well - lost key -> 50%. Since you shouldn't lose your key to begin with. I don't know of a business who replaces your lost/stolen hardware for free.

I agree that the licenses themselves should be handled differently, but apparently they work on it. Meaning, when your key gets stolen/lost it should be handled like this imo:
- Your licenses get blocked immediately, linked to your account
- You buy new Dongles
- You get new licenses issued (to your account) for the small handling fee
Based on a database of licenses and accounts - so they can easily block/revoke/re-issue new licenses tied to you as individual. But this of course raises the need for IT-Security, but that's all details.


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## novaburst (Apr 22, 2018)

fretti said:


> Seems possible for them to block the licenses on a key.



Well at the moment this is not the case the say they have no way to do it as your license work of line,

So if someone helped them by downloading the software they can use when ever they want with the lost or stolen license so blocking the licence will have done nothing


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## muk (Apr 22, 2018)

What _is_ unfair to the end user is that VSL seems to take a bit of a double standard concerning the dongle. If you loose or break your dongle or it gets stolen, VSL argues that this piece of hardware is the product. You lost yours, so you have to rebuy the libraries (and it is a courtesy that you only have to pay 50%). If you resell your libraries, however, all of a sudden the hardware dongle is not the product anymore. Because hardware can be sold freely. Instead, VSL now argues that the license is the product. And they facilitate a license transfer for a 10% fee. In my opinion you can't have it both ways, and I reckon either one or the other policy would not have been legally binding if tested in court. Apart from better customer protection that's the second reason why I am all for VSL reworking this policy.


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## novaburst (Apr 22, 2018)

I think the transfer fee is all to do with handling so someone needs to be paid for that work,

But if you look at it from a lost or stolen point of view it can turn out a very big lost for VSL, if there was just a 100 euros worth of software on that lost or stolen license it would not be so bad, but if it turns out there is a few 1000 euros on that license that turns out to be a big lost for VSL,

On one hand someone who found or stole the license is having a great time using thousands of euros worth of software and on the other hand they now have to give all that software back to the person who lost it for 50% of the asking price and create a fresh new license with a new dongle for them what ever way you look at it VSL is in the loser seat.

Plus there is always the sad possibility that that dongle was giving away intentionally as a scam

So all someone needs to do is to plan with a friend VSL user and give 50% of the asking price to hand his dongle over, so that means instead of paying the full price for the VSL library they are guaranteed 50%, the VSL user then downloads there software on his friends machine and now you have another user who does not need an account but only paid 50% and maybe gave a little extra to the VSL friend user so they are happy now

You may think this is a silly analogy but there is so much software deception I would not count it out that this scam is already in use.

But the real picture is VSL has no way of knowing that the lost or stolen Dongle was given or genuinely lost, so already you can see the amount of money it is possible for VSL to lose form this type of scam.


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## Phillip Dixon (Apr 22, 2018)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> sorry i brought it up.


 Dont apologise ..


novaburst said:


> I think the transfer fee is all to do with handling so someone needs to be paid for that work,
> 
> But if you look at it from a lost or stolen point of view it can turn out a very big lost for VSL, if there was just a 100 euros worth of software on that lost or stolen license it would not be so bad, but if it turns out there is a few 1000 euros on that license that turns out to be a big lost for VSL,
> 
> ...


What gets my goat is the assumption that were all a bunch of scammers .out of all
The people i personnally know only two actually use and enjoy this software and are
More than happy to pay for it i would suggest your average crimminal has no interest in the fine art and love of producing
Orchestrated music.....


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## muk (Apr 22, 2018)

Yes, I understand where VSL is coming from. It's understandable that they have to protect their work. What I am trying to say is that they way they are doing it now (and have been doing for years) is by using a double standard on the end users back.



novaburst said:


> I think the transfer fee is all to do with handling so someone needs to be paid for that work,



A) Understood, and granted _if_ VSL agrees that the personal licenses are the product. In that case a license transfer fee is perfectly appropriate. A personal license is a contract between the user and VSL. For a fee VSL grants the end user the right to use their recordings. If you want to transfer that right to another user, VSL has to agree and a transfer fee is completely fine.
B) However, if you loose your dongle, VSL now argues that not the personal licenses (the contract between you and VSL) are the product, but the hardware dongle. If the personal license were the product, loosing a dongle would mean nothing - you can't loose a personal license. Loosing the paper a contract is written on does not make the contract void. But now VSL is saying that the hardware piece of plastic called 'dongle' is the actual product. So if you loose the hardware, you have to buy it anew.

A) and B) are mutually contradicting views about what the product actually is. The product is either A) a personal license, or B) hardware. Arguing that it is a A) in one case but B) in another is contradictory, to the end users disadvantage.

As an end user you could be arguing exactly the other way around. If you loose your dongle you could argue that the personal license is the product. You can not loose a personal license, so VSL has to activate the products on a new dongle free of charge or for a nominal handling fee. But if you want to sell the libraries you could argue that you are just selling hardware, namely a usb stick made of plastic. Hardware can be sold freely, without having to pay anything to the manufacturer. You don't have to pay a 10% fee to Ikea if you want to resell a bookstand you bought from them. So VSL does not have to monitor anything, and they certainly don't have to collect a 10% fee. You just sell a plastic dongle to somebody else.

Now, I am not of the opinion that the above paragraph would be fair to VSL. And by the same token I am not of the opinion that VSL's current policy is fair to the end user.


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## novaburst (Apr 22, 2018)

Phillip Dixon said:


> Dont apologise ..
> 
> What gets my goat is the assumption that were all a bunch of scammers .out of all
> The people i personnally know only two actually use and enjoy this software and are
> ...



That is fine that you know people that are willing to pay for the software, and my guess is that nobody knows any one that is not willing to pay, or is not willing to pay the full price we just don't know people like that.

But they do exist and sadly many of them do, why are so many orchestral software pirated ask yourself, sadly there are many that exploit loop holes and use to there advantage.

To many if you can get it cheaper, or pay nothing that is the way forward that's why we have dongles in the first place, and iloks, and licenses, to control the seemingly talented people who know how to steal software.

Its a fact of life, so what VSL does is say listen we can meet you halfway (50%) because this has also turned out to be a big loss to us too,

So when you lose your dongle it also becomes a loss for VSL too.


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## fretti (Apr 22, 2018)

novaburst said:


> That is fine that you know people that are willing to pay for the software, and my guess is that nobody knows any one that is not willing to pay, or is not willing to pay the full price we just don't know people like that.
> 
> But they do exist and sadly many of them do, why are so many orchestral software pirated ask yourself, sadly there are many that exploit loop holes and use to there advantage.
> 
> ...


Always sad that such measures have to exist because of those people...
And I always find it very funny when these people with pirated licenses etc. have the nerve to write the support of a company because their license got blocked/blacklisted and they can't use a product anymore. Should have thought of that in the first place and just buy it when they want/need it...


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## Phillip Dixon (Apr 22, 2018)

novaburst said:


> That is fine that you know people that are willing to pay for the software, and my guess is that nobody knows any one that is not willing to pay, or is not willing to pay the full price we just don't know people like that.
> 
> But they do exist and sadly many of them do, why are so many orchestral software pirated ask yourself, sadly there are many that exploit loop holes and use to there advantage.
> 
> ...


Just uploaded my latest piece
Air on a Shoestring


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## Casiquire (Apr 22, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> Yes, of course - a stolen or lost key is your fault - and it's nice of them to make it 50% and not "buy a new license for full price". I mean - if your gun gets stolen and somebody gets shot with your gun, it's your fault too (I know, not an entirely nice allegory, but you get what I mean). That's how it's handled currently.



This argument is dependent on the false narrative that having a dongle with all your licenses on it and no way to retrieve or transfer them in the case of a loss is the only way to do things. Quite the contrary, Steinberg us the ONLY company out there that works that way.


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## MatFluor (Apr 22, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> This argument is dependent on the false narrative that having a dongle with all your licenses on it and no way to retrieve or transfer them in the case of a loss is the only way to do things. Quite the contrary, Steinberg us the ONLY company out there that works that way.



Of course - that's why I said "That's how it's handled currently". Not saying it's the best or only way - it's just the way it's handled by them.


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## Casiquire (Apr 22, 2018)

Then it isn't "nice" of them to give you a discount to get your own library back, it's actually one of the cruelest policies in the industry to charge that much in the first place.

I do agree with your ending comments on how it SHOULD work though!


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## Quasar (Apr 22, 2018)

I looked at VSL's licensing policies a while back when first checking out the world of sample libraries and VIs, and learned very quickly that I would never, ever under any conceivable circumstance have anything to do with them. 

I don't care how good the libraries might be. I would quite literally flush money down the toilet before I would support their surrealistically grotesque business model.


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## rrichard63 (Apr 22, 2018)

novaburst said:


> lost or stolen jewelry wouldn't be replaced unless it's insured. That's why we recommend to insure all products you licensed.


To VSL: I live in California. Please reply with the name of the insurance company that will sell me this insurance.

To VI-Control members: please ask VSL the same question about your location.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Apr 22, 2018)

i can't help drawing comparisons with high end CAD licensing schemes.

My CAD (PTC Creo 4) for a locked license (non-server floating) is linked to the Host ID or MAC address of the computer it is installed on.

Generally, however, the server based licensing is used throughout our org.

We pay a hefty yearly maintenance for support and upgrades.

now even PTC is looking into a subscription service.

PTC programs used to command $25,000 for a full design seat back in the day. They were one of the few games in town.

when more affordable 3D CAD apps came on the market, PTC acted in kind and became competitive.

market pressure and customer feedback are CRUCIAL to a company's product vector.

PTC offering a subscription service, shows software licensing approaches are in more flux than ever.

crazy.

point?

i'm willing to give VSL some wiggle room here.

i reach for my VSL libraries first when setting up a new project.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Apr 22, 2018)

i've used insurance riders in the past for rare and collectible items.

geek alert, specifically rare vinyl lps and comic books.

i had to provide a detailed, itemized list of items covered with purchase cost and replacement value.

this can apply to rental policies too.

something to consider.

https://www.thebalance.com/adding-to-your-homeowners-insurance-do-you-need-a-rider-2645704


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 22, 2018)

The way I see it, VSL wanted to cover their butt so that 100% no chance anyone can ever steal their software and use it, but they are passing this risk factor over to consumers instead. Zero risk to VSL, significant and unreasonable risk to consumers. Some folks are ok with this risk and I suspect certain types of personalities would have no problem with it. Others are not. This is on top of charging an arm and a leg for it to begin with.

The ironic thing is that clearly VSL has lost sales due to this policy. They are losing my business right now and numerous other potential customers have reported the same here. I suspect many others not on this forum have decided against buying their software for similar reasons.

In my view their strategy is working against them. Bear in mind that while there is a lot of software piracy going on out there, the simple truth is that just because hypothetically some kid uses a pirated version of Vienna cube does not mean that he would have otherwise become a sale for vsl. It is a fallacy to consider that as a lost sale to vsl. Lost sales are when someone who definitely would pay for it somehow acquires an illegal copy and steals it instead. I personally do not know of anyone that fits that description. In my view vsl is pushing on to its customers an unreasonable amount of risk on a very expensive product in its market space, and they are not gaining any sales this way, only losing. Meanwhile there is also a chance that some of their paying users may also end up losing due to the loss rules.

There is a reason that the vast majority of the industry has moved away from that kind of stubborn thinking. It’s called the bottom line.


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## Phillip (Apr 22, 2018)

It looks like VSL have finally realized that they are losing sales because off their ridiculous dongle policy. Only lost revenue will make them act, not the interest of their customers. Pure greed.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 22, 2018)

My estimation is that “greed” is not the problem, but rather an engineering mindset. Engineers are very far away in their thinking from that of marketers. They would tend to think “hey we can find a way to engineer the perfectly protected peice of software” but then fail to see the negative impact such a policy would have on sales. It’s hard to see the forest from the trees. Engineers and other highly technical types fall easily into that trap and it’s hard for them to even believe the truth about marketing when explained to them.

Greed is a factor too but greed is also what drives people to innovate and every other developer out there making stuff without dongles at all is driven just as much by greed. At some point they do the math and decide the best way to make the most money. I actually don’t have a problem with that.


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## novaburst (Apr 22, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> They are losing my business right



Please let us know what options you decided to spend your cash on Stitfire, EastWest 8dio it will be intresting to know I think you were boasting about 4 to 5000 pounds you were going to spend I think it would be cool to see who got that money in the end, and what you decided to purchase.



Phillip said:


> It looks like VSL have finally realized that they are losing sales because off their ridiculous dongle policy. Only lost revenue will make them act, not the interest of their customers. Pure greed.



What you mean is you wish VSL were losing sales because of some hate thing going on in your head but quite the opposite is going on, I am seeing new members and fresh purchases all the time on the VSL site.

When people purchase something from VSL they don't go in with the idea the house might burn down or it may get stolen they purchase with the idea I want to make music.

Complainers rarely ever would lift a penny to purchase something there just there to steer up and course a fuss but never at one time would they have purchased anything even if the policy was different, just a load of hot air.


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## Phillip (Apr 22, 2018)

Wait until you will lose your VSL dongle....


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## novaburst (Apr 22, 2018)

Phillip said:


> Wait until you will lose your VSL dongle....



Why would I go and do something as stupid as that


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 22, 2018)

I already have several things including ew Hollywood orch and some other stuff which is fine for now. If vsl improves their policy I will consider making the leap but no I will not be spending $5000 on spitfire instead. Over time I’m sure I will be spending thousands of dollars on improving my setup. It remains to be seen whether VSL gets any of it.

Nova I know this talk is annoying to you to listen to, but too bad for you, you don’t HAVE to read the thread.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.


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## novaburst (Apr 22, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Nova I know this talk is annoying to you to listen to, but too bad for you, you don’t HAVE to read the thread.



What ever,


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## heisenberg (Apr 22, 2018)

Good to hear the breadth of concern on this topic. It is a complicated one.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Apr 22, 2018)

heisenberg said:


> To access the "ignore list", click on the avatar of the troll in question it brings up a dialogue box, then click on "ignore" and you are done.



it's a matter of Principle.



sorry, a touch of levity (hopefully) in this otherwise dreary thread.


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## Quasar (Apr 22, 2018)

novaburst said:


> ...but never at one time would they have purchased anything even if the policy was different, just a load of hot air.



This is beyond doubt factually inaccurate. After listening to VSL-made music and reading the reviews of others, it is clear that their instruments are: 1) Very high quality, 2) shine for emulating traditional European orchestral ("classical") music, 3) cover a most impressive gamut of articulative possibilities, & 4) are quite dry and thus extremely flexible.

When I first started looking into this stuff, it is almost inevitable that VSL is the direction I would have gone had their activation protocol been - in my admittedly highly opinionated and subjective judgment - righteous and fair, especially because even though they're pricey, you can opt-in to the ecosystem piecemeal, adding as you can afford. They do have sales, and their products are also tiered in such a way as to offer affordable entry-level points.

But their whole licensing scheme created a virtual DMZ for me, a hostile border through which I have absolutely no desire to pass, and merely leads into an area that I have absolutely no willingness to enter.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Apr 22, 2018)

there's a Fawlty Towers sketch in here somewhere.


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## Michael Antrum (Apr 22, 2018)

I was going to post something, and then decided not to as it was a bit mean, and then I thought, "I've been drinking, so I can blame it one that, what the hell....





​


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## Casiquire (Apr 22, 2018)

Another pretty simple solution to the VSL fans out there, a category in which I include myself: every two years you can apply to get a new license if something happens to your dongle. Waves has a policy that you can transfer to a new computer and reauthorize every year. I believe Kontakt lets you transfer as well if you upgrade to a new system or if your computer gets stolen (I've done it a handful of times). This is not often enough for anybody to seriously sustain a model of piracy and surely a pattern would be easy to spot, and it would be super easy to implement, and it matches up with the timeframe of the warranty on the eLicenser. Everyone's happy.


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## novaburst (Apr 22, 2018)

Quasar said:


> When I first started looking into this stuff, it is almost inevitable that VSL is the direction I would have gone h



So what are you trying to say nothing else will do, because if that was the case you would already have VSL in your projects and stop using policy as a lame excuse to not purchase sorry I find it hard to believe you.


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## novaburst (Apr 22, 2018)

mikeybabes said:


> I was going to post something, and then decided not to as it was a bit mean, and then I thought, "I've been drinking, so I can blame it one that, what the hell....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't mind this sort of stuff it kind of shows the mentality of the people who try to change policy yep daft.

Really thought you guys were a genuine bunch turns out you are all about discrediting Developers and anyone that does not agree with what you say so you go on and take the piss, very poor and sad.

You develop a hate against Developers then find an excuse to get people to rally behind you, you should try getting a life, instead of hating on Developers, truly a very sad case.

I said it before and I will keep saying it if you don't like what a developer is doing use other options don't stress your self.


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## Phillip Dixon (Apr 22, 2018)

novaburst said:


> So what are you trying to say nothing else will do, because if that was the case you would already have VSL in your projects and stop using policy as a lame excuse to not purchase sorry I find it hard to believe you.


Hey nova ... mate ..your taking this far to
Personally.. you've got a right to a voice as everyone else here.. we are all musicians of sorts... thats what really matters
All the best phill.


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## Casiquire (Apr 22, 2018)

omiroad said:


> False, Steinberg gives you a new license free of charge if your dongle is lost/damaged.
> 
> See https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-us/articles/206532304-Steinberg-Zero-Downtime



Then is VSL lying when they say that their policy is a limitation of the eLicenser? Regardless, swap Steinberg for VSL, my point still stands.


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## Quasar (Apr 22, 2018)

novaburst said:


> So what are you trying to say nothing else will do, because if that was the case you would already have VSL in your projects and stop using policy as a lame excuse to not purchase *sorry I find it hard to believe you*.



No apologies necessary. One of the redeeming aspects of this short existence is that one is free to believe whomever or whatever one likes.


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## novaburst (Apr 22, 2018)

Quasar said:


> No apologies necessary. One of the redeeming aspects of this short existence is that one is free to believe whomever or whatever one likes.



How many people that have been using VSL for years how many do you see complain about dongle stolen but thousands are using VSL for music for years how comes they don't get hung up on a policy, 

One reason that I believe is its all about the music its also proof dongles just don't get lost or you will be seeing tons of complaints every where. 

We are musicians first and that's it we don't go around using forums to bring down and discredit Developers especially if your not obliged to purchase from that developer. 

It becomes nothing but a hate campaign when you try your very best to stop people from purchasing from a developer. It's not constructive, it's damaging. 

And we do not have the right to behave in such a cruel way its simply wrong. 

Nothing happens to you once the damage has been done you just get on with your life and in a weeks time you will forget what you even said on this forum but the damage you and athers coursed can be great

Why the would you want to do that and you don't even know them, they done know King harm to you why the do you want to do harm to them and they mean nothing to you nothing. 
Do you get some kind of a thrill. 

When there are so many options available why do you believe you should be hating on VSL because that's what it is. 

If I want to purchase software from VSL I do it at my own free will and every one who wants to purchase from them should have that same opportunity, without the misguided idea that your dongles will get lost or stolen.


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## 667 (Apr 22, 2018)

Your "license" is a legal agreement with VSL (right to use the sound recordings). The dongle is just their copy protection device and the files in it are not your licenses, they are decryption keys for their software so you can use/run it. But it's not the same thing and they have a responsibility to their customers here to enable them to use what they have paid for. They try to tie it all together, as though if you lose the dongle you lose all your rights, and it's worked because some people are indeed very confused about this.

That they would charge you anything at all for a BROKEN eLicenser is beyond acceptable. "Warranty period" on a $40 piece of plastic is gonna cost me $2k in replacement "licenses"? HAH! 

Put me in the former customer camp. I don't support companies that hate their customers and with this policy VSL is making it very clear they hate us all.


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## Casiquire (Apr 23, 2018)

Novaburst, you're not being entirely accurate when you say that thousands if people use their product and never bring this up as a problem. First of all, if that's true, why does this thread exist? And second, this isn't the first, or second, time I've seen this come up. It's been a point of contention ever since I started using VSL some six years ago. If it seems like things are escalating, that could be related to what I brought up earlier, times are changing and it's possible that more people are likely to use samples on mobile systems. Laptops can handle pretty heavy VSL templates just fine today. But this topic has always been around.


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## novaburst (Apr 23, 2018)

Phillip Dixon said:


> we are all musicians of sorts... thats what really matters
> All the best phill.



Believe it or not VSL are musicians too, they provide a great service for thousands they are our comrades not our enemy why are we trying to destroy them.

But yes @Phillip we are musicians that is what really matters

The way I see people acting against VSL is like out of a horror movie it becomes the lowest and saddest part of this forum that anyone would stomach such discrimination against a Developer. 

I get court up in these sort of topics, and feelings do fly around. 

I think I just want to remind people they are human and what ever our feelings towards them may be it certainly is not to destroy them and when this sort of topics comes around a lot of forum users take the opportunity to hate on them and there not really interested weather the policy is in place or not as long as they can write a hate post. 

Of a truth thousands understand there policy and still have no problem in purchasing there products including myself we are no different from the haters or from those that dont like there policy. 

We believe VSL have taken orchestral development to a new level and that is so we can do better work and projects. 

In a word we do not difine a developer by what policy it holds to we difine a developer by what library and software it develops. 

And that is how it always should be. 

I refuse to be a part of discrediting or harming VSL, or for that matter any developer that gives a service for us to create music. 

I refuse to be a part of harming my fellow man, and women, by words or discrimination

I refuse to join a disgruntled group of people who's only aim is to stop progressive development and the defaming of others

I will not use a policy as an excuse to discredit or show any doubt of integrity to any developer for they are our fellow comrades and they shall not fall because of the spiteful word that come out of my mouth. 

For I am a human inside a musician and because of that it must be the path of humanity I choose to take not the path of destruction of others.


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## Casiquire (Apr 23, 2018)

Progressive development is exactly what we're hoping for, actually.


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## MatFluor (Apr 23, 2018)

X-Bassist said:


> Unfortuantely I’ve had dongles die, and I never move them, and never remove them, yet they can still die. So after buying VEPro and finding out about this policy, I’ve just never bought VSL again. I won’t even listen to demos, even though I’m sure they have some great stuff. Truth is, if any other developer told me I’d have to pay half of an expensive purchase to get my libraries working after a dongle failure, I’d think they were crazy. Can’t image being the guy who buy’s an entire orchestra from them, only to “repurchase” because of a $45 dongle failure.



Dongle failures are "free of charge". You only pay if you lose it, it get's stolen or you try to tinker with the hardware (like open it up etc.)


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## StatKsn (Apr 23, 2018)

As for whether you will be requested to pay for dongle failures with VSL or not, it seems like a coin toss unfortunately. The process looks time-consuming and you won't be up for at the least a week.

https://vi-control.net/community/th...ctivating-license-on-damaged-elicenser.70813/

Steinberg's policy is very supportive otoh.

Also, there is one person says his studio caught a fire, which burnt two Vienna keys (technically not lost) but he was requested to pay up 50% of $10,000 or so. A pic at page 7.

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/whatever-happened-to-vsl.60820/page-5

VSL's latest statements about the policy is in this thread:

https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t42581p4-VSL-LOST-KEY-POLICY?=&login=t#post267885


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## Symfoniq (Apr 23, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> Dongle failures are "free of charge". You only pay if you lose it, it get's stolen or you try to tinker with the hardware (like open it up etc.)



I believe this is only the case if the dongle is still under warranty.


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## MatFluor (Apr 23, 2018)

Symfoniq said:


> I believe this is only the case if the dongle is still under warranty.



Yes, of course


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## Phillip Dixon (Apr 23, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> Dongle failures are "free of charge". You only pay if you lose it, it get's stolen or you try to tinker with the hardware (like open it up etc.)


If it fails before the 2 year waranty runs out
Then its free.if you break it


MatFluor said:


> Yes, of course


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## Phillip Dixon (Apr 23, 2018)

Phillip Dixon said:


> If it fails before the 2 year waranty runs out
> Then its free.if you break it


I have just counted ..21 licences on my key
If it breaks then it will cost me £420 + 20
For new key...to transfer...mabey i should have read the small print...shit...lve broken
One before but got away with it and was able to transfer to new key using control center before it bit the dust ..knowing what i know now i would not have bought these products....no matter how usefull they are
I have many other librarys...lets face it a lot of us fall in to the trap of buying shiney new
Stuff it does'ent make us better composers
They all want our money..but pay for it twice your aving a laugh.....


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## EgM (Apr 23, 2018)

Pretty sure Steinberg is the one at fault here, VSL pays Steinberg for the eLicenser service and are most likely the ones charging to replace the licenses.

I think Steinberg doesn't give VSL enough control on the licenses or eLicenser matters. Either way, this has to be addressed because it makes no sense.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 23, 2018)

Judging by the age of some of the VSL forum threads where VSL says they are "working on it", I wouldn't hold your breath.


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## Quasar (Apr 23, 2018)

novaburst said:


> ...In a word we do not difine a developer by what policy it holds to we difine a developer by what library and software it develops.
> 
> And that is how it always should be..



Your unambiguously declarative assertion that a provider of a(any) good or service is in no way accountable for "what policy it holds to" is - quite frankly - astonishing.


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## Casiquire (Apr 23, 2018)

So the warranty is void if you "open it up" but what's the most common way that these things break? The casing opening. It's just a garbage policy all around.


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## MatFluor (Apr 23, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> So the warranty is void if you "open it up" but what's the most common way that these things break? The casing opening. It's just a garbage policy all around.



Warranty void if you open it. If it "falls apart" you didn't open it forcefully - details

(Yes - playing a bit devils advocate here)


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## Casiquire (Apr 23, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> Warranty void if you open it. If it "falls apart" you didn't open it forcefully - details
> 
> (Yes - playing a bit devils advocate here)



Sure, but how can you tell? Either way you're left at their mercy again, and so far every part of their policy favors them, not you, so it doesn't sound good.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 23, 2018)

The warranty should have absolutely nothing to do with the license, only if the hardware actually fails within two years, the warranty should cover the actual hardware. Regardless of whether it fails in one year or two years or more years, it should not cost a single penny to move your license to a new dongle. And you shouldn’t have to wait more then 24 hours for it.

It should also not cost a single penny to get your license moved or changed to a new dongle should you lose the old one. 

If they want my business it will have to a LOT closer to that.

The challenge for vsl, in order to calm their paranoia, is how to ensure that registered users don’t call and lie about losing or damaging their dongle in order to end up with two working dongles, one of which they could give away, loan out or sell.

Personally I think it’s a solvable problem if they want to.


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## heisenberg (Apr 23, 2018)

I am confident they could to solve this issue involving Steinberg to alter the "calling home" mechanism of the software where they would be able to enable functionality* that allows license retrieval from a third party like VSL*. Right now apparently it does not. 

This would allow Steinberg to create a Dongle Renewal Program along with new revenue stream selling eLicensers to Dongle Enthusiasts worldwide on a regular basis. Dongle dreams!

I think the trick is to keep the workflow much the same for the e-license people, VSL & us the Dongle Enthusiasts. Now VSL has to take this idea and sell it to the dongle overlords at Steinberg/eLicenser.


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## MarcelM (Apr 23, 2018)

i didnt read everything here, but i contacted support about this a few weeks back and they are working on a solution. i was interested in some vsl stuff, but i told them i wont buy anything at the moment due to this.


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## Paul Kopf (Apr 24, 2018)

Hi everybody, 

First of all, here's a big Thank You to all V.I. Control users for taking the time to tell us about your thoughts about our policy on lost or damaged ViennaKeys / eLicenser USB dongles. It is much appreciated that you care about Vienna Symphonic Library and our products. We do listen, as well as understand your points.

When we started to use eLicenser for our products in 2005, most professional users preferred to have their working system completely offline for security reasons. This has changed, and that's why we can also think about changing our licensing policy, together with new possibilities eLicenser (owned by Yamaha / Steinberg) is implementing.

So I'd like to confirm here that we already are in the process of finding a better solution to especially lost key scenarios, together with eLicenser. I hope to have a solution on this problem in the not too distant future. 

Regarding our current policy as per spring 2018, here are the facts we are working with:

1) Licenses can NOT be deactivated via remote by us, Steinberg or eLicenser, even if the computer is online. Therefore, everyone who finds or steals a key, can use it without any restrictions. This also has to do with data privacy and data protection: We and nobody else can and may access the licenses without your agreement and active support. 

The same is true for Steinberg. So, once again, it is technically NOT POSSIBLE to deactivate licenses on eLicenser keys via remote access without the agreement and active help of our users (which is not possible when the key is lost or stolen). 

2) PLEASE consider the differences between Steinberg’s products (e.g., software type, price point, yearly upgrades) and VSL products (more than 200 licenses available for just instruments, permanent licenses => no periodic version upgrades for library products, producing sample content in-house with high efforts). 

=> This is why Steinberg is replacing licenses for free, and why it makes sense in their case: Their licenses need to be renewed at least every few years, if you want to stay up to date. Our libraries keep their value over a long period of time, and other than Steinberg, we provide free software updates for the included software, Vienna Instruments and Vienna Ensemble.

=> Zero Downtime / Steinberg: We provide exactly the same service, free of charge. If a key is reported to our support as lost/stolen/broken, we arrange for a demo license that bridges the time until the replacement procedure has been taken care of. This way every user can keep on working until a permanent solution is found. 

3) We are paying license fees to eLicenser/Steinberg for every permanent license we hand out (also replacement licenses). That is eLicenser’s business model. Presumably a fact that makes it easier for Steinberg to hand out free replacement licenses, as eLicenser is part of Steinberg. 

4) A broken key is a completely different situation, because the dongle is still physically available. In that case we charge a small handling fee per license, with extensive discounts for users with many licenses. If the key is younger than two years (warranty), the replacement licenses are free of charge in that case, and you receive a free replacement ViennaKey too.

5) Once again: We can only work with the technical possibilities that are offered by eLicenser/Steinberg. 

That is the situation that we are in, being connected to and depending on eLicenser/Steinberg: The system works within the mentioned limits at this point in time.

Best, 

Paul Kopf
Product Manager
Vienna Symphonic Library


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## StatKsn (Apr 24, 2018)

Hi Paul,

I can't direct you how to run your business and I do understand that the situation involves Steinberg's business model, however:

1. Virtually, any other developers (and so many sample developers with similar business model to yours) have vastly better policies regarding lost license, and willing to give customers a benefit of doubt. I don't think it is too much to say that your policy seems to be constructed upon a foundation that customers can't be trusted, which makes me very nervous and ultimately turned me off.

2. It sounds like you don't want to/can't afford to lose a single penny regarding a license issue, and expecting customers to pay for any potential cost.

For example, "burglar might use a stolen key" argument. Like many users already brought it up, it is almost impossible that a burglar is a composer, knows what exact license is inside the eLicenser key and has VSL samples on their library. I don't want to make a false accusation, but it almost sounds like your business model is somewhat expecting that some licenses will be lost eventually and you will get a recurring revenue stream.

I can't speak for everyone but normally, such potential cost is included in the MSRP. You say that your library is like a luxury product like a jewelry, yet your policy sounds like an LCC, which is simply strange given that otherwise your support/refund policy is excellent.

3. Your rules are kind of arbitrary and, based on reports like you have requested to charge 50% of MSRP for a melted dongle ("still physically available") it is completely up to your mercy even if the dongle is not lost, and you always seem to suspect customers first. Steinberg ZDT uses an honor system but they are clear that they can refuse the request once something smells (such as there are too many requests).

4. If your business model can't afford to offer a better policy because of lack of constant revenue stream, please do consider offering a subscription model alongside. Not everyone's cup of tea, but I think it is ultimately more constructive than to blame customers for your business model.

I am comfortable paying several hundred bucks every year rather than "owning" $5000 worth of libraries and then all of sudden lose everything because of some unfortunate incident.


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## Phillip (Apr 24, 2018)

Dear Paul Kopf. If Beethoven was your customer and lost his dongle he would come to your office and beat you up with his walking stick. Please fix everything. Thank you.


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## fretti (Apr 24, 2018)

Phillip said:


> Dear Paul Kopf. If Beethoven was your customer and lost his dongle he would come to your office and beat you up with his walking stick. Please fix everything. Thank you.


More with his eartrumpet.


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## micrologus (Apr 24, 2018)

Hi Paul, I'm glad that VSL is considering a better solution for this.  I own several VSL libraries and those are really good and inspiring for my work: it is a great pleasure to work with those samples.
Actually I'm a little scared when I choose to use my VSL libraries, fearing the ViennaKey could be broken... 
I'm confident that a good solution for all will be found, so that we can keep on playing the libraries with serenity and inspiration.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 24, 2018)

I’m glad to hear they are listening and working on it. Hope that in the future I may be able to consider vsl products in my studio once the policies are more reasonable and customer focused.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Apr 28, 2018)

omiroad said:


> This is not true. You can actually block an entire eLicenser.
> 
> Proof is here, from someone who bought fraudulently obtained licenses:
> 
> Can't update Cubase: bought update code on ebay, USB key now disabled



that was entertaining for a rainy Saturday evening.


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## Casiquire (Apr 28, 2018)

Phillip said:


> Dear Paul Kopf. If Beethoven was your customer and lost his dongle he would come to your office and beat you up with his walking stick. Please fix everything. Thank you.



Post of the Year


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## 667 (Apr 29, 2018)

The issue is cost: if there is some cost to VSL to replace keys, fine, I will pay some portion of this (some is VSL's cost of doing business, because they have chosen this copy protection and chosen to offload the cost of the dongle to customers, etc.) However there is no way that I believe Steinberg is charging VSL EUR600 for a "EUR1200 MSRP" Dimension Strings license. And if they are, VSL is responsible for this horrible business relationship, and responsible to their customers to make them whole for reasonable cost.

I am also a VE Pro customer, so I must buy 4 eLicensers every 2 years just to be under warranty?! Not acceptable by any means. This is a joke of a policy and I am personally offended a company like VSL would let this drag on for years and years. I respect the quality of their samples, products, software, etc. but this is a sign they have really neglected an important part of their business.



omiroad said:


> This is not true. You can actually block an entire eLicenser.
> 
> Proof is here, from someone who bought fraudulently obtained licenses:
> 
> Can't update Cubase: bought update code on ebay, USB key now disabled


This is because someone was logged in to their account via the eLicenser software and tried to upgrade a stolen key. So they were interacting with the Steinberg servers at the time. But it is not necessary to do this except when adding licenses-- with a stolen dongle, a person just runs the software. You don't need to ever log in to your 'my steinberg' account in the license manager, you just run it forever. Unless you are stupid *or* were sold a legit-but-stolen/fraudulent key. 

In this case, to clarify: seller buys keys with stolen CC numbers, sells to unsuspecting users. The key is legit in this short window of time. Users register, all is ok. Then Steinberg gets the chargebacks / fraud reports, so they block the keys. But it is too late: the license is active on the dongle and will run forever. Until the user logs in to their account and tries to upgrade that now-blocked key, at that point Steinberg can block the dongle with the pirate license. 

So you can see, this isn't really helpful for VSL in terms of piracy control because no one is going to log in and upgrade their stolen Synchron Strings licenses. I do 100% disagree with their policy in general. But their statement that they cannot block stolen keys is legitimate.


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## Wagtunes (Jun 25, 2018)

With the current VSL sale (ending June 30, 2018) I was ready to make purchases of around $2,000. Then somebody informed me of their license policy and that was the end of that.

I don't travel. I have a desktop PC so the only thing that could possibly happen is my dongle breaks. But that still IS a possibility. Having to replace my licenses at what could cost me several hundred dollars is just unacceptable.

Anyway, I wrote to VSL and told them that they lost a sale because of their policy. I haven't received a reply yet nor do I expect to. But I wanted them to be aware of how much money they're losing.

There is such a simple solution to this problem I don't understand why they don't use it. But whatever. I have EWQL orchestral stuff and it'll do fine.

Maybe someday their policy will change.

But I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jun 25, 2018)

Wagtunes said:


> With the current VSL sale (ending June 30, 2018) I was ready to make purchases of around $2,000. Then somebody informed me of their license policy and that was the end of that.
> 
> I don't travel. I have a desktop PC so the only thing that could possibly happen is my dongle breaks. But that still IS a possibility. Having to replace my licenses at what could cost me several hundred dollars is just unacceptable.
> 
> ...




i've been tempted a few times over the last week to get the new Synchron FX Strings 1.

as much as i love all my VSL libraries (my foundation) and VEP6 (game changer for me), i have to remind myself to wait until this has been addressed.

everything else about VSL is great (for me),

sound quality, ease of installation, good manuals, flexible resale, etc.


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## heisenberg (Jun 25, 2018)

While I agree with the above, VSL has to fix their policy around dongles, for me life is too short to be worried about this insofar as I am concerned. If I were laptop based or a travelling musician, I would probably think differently.

FX Strings I is incredible.

EDIT: Of note, if you purchase a new elicenser every two years, much of the risk is eliminated. I plan to get my elicenser or Vienna Key directly from VSL to expedite getting a claim going should the dongle ever go south.

Maybe VSL could give us an update on how they are getting along with this. Has Steinberg re-architected the dongle or their backend validation process, so this issue can be finally be put to bed?


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 25, 2018)

Well the warranty on the dongle doesn't cover if you damage the dongle in some way. It will only cover if the dongle stops working due to faulty electronics. If you damage your dongle by dropping it in the pool, then you have to pay fees for your license back. If you lose your dongle you have to pay a lot.


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