# It's ok in AZ to harrass Mexicans now



## José Herring (Apr 23, 2010)

This just in: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/2 ... 49290.html

Being a poor Mexican in AZ is hard enough. But, now the cops have the right to stop any Mexican they "suspect" might be here illegally and ask for papers. AZ just turned the corner from being right wing to being a military state imo. Sad. It is a nice place with many nice people. A place that I have very fond memories of growing up. But laws like these remind me everyday as to why I got out as soon as I could.

( I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in these forum political discussions any more, but this bears mentioning. Hopefully the Justice department will step in. They should. As borders are a national responsibility and shouldn't be at the whim of a couple of State crackpots looking to kiss ass with the tea party and the militia groups of AZ.)

José


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## midphase (Apr 23, 2010)

Now...how is it possible that I go to CNN.com to read more about this story, and end up checking this out instead?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/04/23/sandra.bullock.razzie.ew/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/04/23/s ... index.html)


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## C M Dess (Apr 23, 2010)

Yes politics are like quicksand. The internet has something shocking to display—often times visceral—about every time I check my RSS feeds. Creates a lot of interruptions in the though process. I worry the worlds ADD is gonna ramp up after all this change. (40 killed just now click here, man dies on muni tracks!). This is after I have taken the time to filter down the feeds so the information is more practical and useful (mechanical). :| 

Back to the topic at hand:

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/immigration/obama-blasts-arizona-illegal-immigration-effort/ (http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/immig ... on-effort/)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... hoo_module


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## José Herring (Apr 23, 2010)

Well the really sad part is that it makes racism in AZ legit. And, it will give the "good 'ol boys" enough reason to start on a crusade against Mexicans. And, believe me they won't at all be discriminate about who's illegal and who's not illegal. The minutemen types are going to have a field day. It's already started.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/2 ... 49795.html


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## gsilbers (Apr 23, 2010)

that shows how small minded and segregated arizona is. in bigger and more cosmopolitan cities then everyone would look illigal. i have many friends that look like they just crossed the border but they actually are 3rd or 4th generation american latino. they dont even speak spanish. 

on the other side of the coin, AZ has a enourmous problem with drug trafficking. but i believe the money that would be spent stopping suspected illigals should be focused on building a stronger border. and keeping the mexican cartels outside. and indeed they are very very strong. and its already spilling into the US. 

im a little against mainstream "liberal" tha i believe in immigration reform of giving amnesty to the ones who deserve it, pay a big fine and go in the back of the line. 
deport the criminals but give the others all the rights citizens have. 

with the money from the fines you could build a huge wall and keep not only more illigals coming in but the cartels. 
as well as help out in the debt problem. you could argue that asking for huge fines would leave them always in poverty and such but at least they would be getting paid minimum wage and taxes. 
well the only thing agaisnt mainstream liberal would be that id like for a huge wall to be built. 


i now the notion of a wall is horrible to many and looks bad but it will help imo. 

this is of course a very difficult topic with a lot of bad blood. so it wont be easy. but i dont like the AZ new law at all.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Apr 23, 2010)

> But, now the cops have the right to stop any Mexican they "suspect" might be here illegally and ask for papers.



Hm, but cops have the right to stop anyone as long as they are suspect of something. i.e. probable cause which is abused a lot, regardless of race. I suppose this is right along the "hey look, a black man in a lexus" stereotype though.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 23, 2010)

This is exactly what happened in Nazi Germany, although on a much milder scale: times get tough, people get racist.

It's very upsetting.


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## RiffWraith (Apr 23, 2010)

Jose, I like you and respect you, BUT....



josejherring @ Sat Apr 24 said:


> This just in: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/2 ... 49290.html
> .... *now the cops have the right to stop any Mexican they "suspect" might be here illegally and ask for papers*.



Uhh, the article doesn't say that. I have not read the law - does the law say that? Because the article doesn't. And I doubt highly the law does. What the article does do, is claim the law says, 

1) ...makes it a crime under state law to be in the country illegally.

Ok, AFAIC that - with the exception of emergencies and extenuating circumstances - is good, and the _entire country _should be that way. No, I am not saying that I do not want Mexicans here; I am saying that I don't want anyone here illegally - regardless of race, nation of origin, religious beliefs, etc.

2) ...requires local police officers to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they are illegal immigrants....

Now, it is easy to turn that into 'the right to stop any Mexican they "suspect" might be here illegally and ask for papers', but that's not what it says. Not that the two are far off, because they aren't - but they are not the same. From what I can tell, they are trying to make it difficult for illegal immigrants - and the ACLU - to claim discrimination when a police officer asks for papers. Good.

3) allows lawsuits against government agencies that hinder enforcement of immigration laws;

Good.

4) makes it illegal to hire illegal immigrants for day labor or knowingly transport them.

Good.

So far, I see nothing wrong here, and do not see this as AZ turning into anything that resembles a police state. 

"but cops have the right to stop anyone as long as they are suspect of something."

Correct. 

One final thought...'now the cops have the right to stop any Mexican they "suspect" might be here illegally and ask for papers' - couldn't that also be turned into "the cops have the right to stop any motorist they "suspect" might be driving without a license and ask for papers' - police state?

Cheers.


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## RiffWraith (Apr 23, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Apr 24 said:


> This is exactly what happened in Nazi Germany, although on a much milder scale...



Also happened here in the U.S. around that same time period. Know what I refer to? Was it right? No. Did the U.S. turn into a police state because of it? No.


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## rJames (Apr 23, 2010)

RiffWraith @ Fri Apr 23 said:


> couldn't that also be turned into "the cops have the right to stop any motorist they "suspect" might be driving without a license and ask for papers' - police state?
> 
> Cheers.



Yes that would reek of police state. Luckily, they don't have that right. Police cannot stop a motorist they "suspect" might be driving without a license and ask for papers.

That would be like stopping anyone who they "suspect" might be an illegal immigrant. Not allowed in a free country. I think they can do that in many parts of the world though.


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## chimuelo (Apr 23, 2010)

Yeah there were 2 Mexican fellas on the Strip last week with signs and begging for money.
Then the Roach Coach ( Taco Truck ) pulled up and they took a quick break.
The one Mexican guy pulls out a roll of 10's, 20's and a few Grants and Bens and bought 8 mini Tacos. The other Mexican guy was counting coins and dollar bills.

So the Mexican guy with the crumpled up ones and coins says to the other mexican guy........." How in the Hell did you get so much money Cabrone....?"
The Guy with the bigger roll says" let me see your sign Hombre....."
Then he called him a Pendajo and said you got the wrong sign.
The poorer Mexican guys sign said I will work for food.... :roll: 
Then the Mexican guy with the big roll showed him his sign that said........I just need Gas Money to get back to Mexico..... :mrgreen: 
He actually was causing traffic jams.....

Ankyu.


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## José Herring (Apr 23, 2010)

Riff you have to think practically. If you're a poor Mexican in Arizona people automatically suspect that you're illegal. So how is the cop going to determine who's legal on who's not? He's gonna start asking Mexicans for I.D. It already happens and now it's official.

Just do a search for Joe Arpaio and you'll see what I mean. Round them up. Send them to jail and sort it out lateò¹>   Îéå¹>   Îéæ¹>   Îéç¹>   Îéè¹>   Îéé¹>   Îéê¹>   Îéë¹@   Îéì¹@   Îéí¹@   Îéî¹@   Îéï¹@   Îéð¹@   Îéñ¹@   Îéò¹@   Îéó¹@   Îéô¹@   Îéõ¹@   Îéö¹@   Îé÷¹@   Îéø¹@   Îéù¹@   Îéú¹@   Îéû¹A   Îéü¹A   Îéý¹A   Îéþ¹A   Îéÿ¹A   Îê ¹A   Îê¹A   Îê¹A   Îê¹A   Îê¹A   Îê¹A   Îê¹A   Îê¹A   Îê¹A   Îê	¹A   Îê
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## Hannes_F (Apr 24, 2010)

josejherring @ Sat Apr 24 said:


> A cop can't stop you unless you're breaking a law.



This is interesting. I am used to being stopped regularly when driving late and show my ID, driver's license and car papers besides being asked about alcohol consummation. Just happened on wednesday night again.

It is normal here and according to what I hear they get a lot of drunk drivers, stolen cars and even really bad boys this way. Speaking as a citizen I agree with this practise even if it is cumbersome on an individual level. Also I should add that this is always handled in a friendly and good-natured mood, never had any unpleasant experience.

BTW they stop young men much more often than any other group just because they know that the hit percenteage is so much higher. I am rarely being stopped when my wife is with me, and never when she is driving. Could that eventually be regarded as discrimination (I am asking from a theoretical point of view)?


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## JohnG (Apr 24, 2010)

the law: http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

Hannes, your statement is not exactly wrong, but I assure you that there is a long, long history of racial profiling in the US for "routine" traffic stops. As a student, I drove for two years a car whose model and condition would make it, stereotypically, driven by a poor person of colour here. I was stopped by the police nearly once a month, just driving along, for "driving erratically" and other manufactured pretexts.

Most of the time this was at night, and almost all of the time, as soon as the officer reached the window of my car and realised that I was white, he would mumble something and brush it off.

Since graduation, I was not stopped one time, even though I was not materially older.

Things are clearly better than they were in my student days, but it's still an issue that troubles many.


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## SvK (Apr 24, 2010)

The signing of this AZ bill is more political 2010 mid-term strategy than anything else:

GOAL: The Republicans want to get as many conservative voters to the polls this November as possible so they have a shot at taking back both houses of congress.

By passing this law in AZ, Latinos will be outraged and look to Obama to start working on Immigration reform immediately. Obama in turn is very dependent on the latino demographic for 2012, so he starts working on reform now. The consequence of this is that it will anger the older / conservative voter and ensure that even more of them turn up in november 2010 to vote Republicans in and take over both houses of congress.

It's a 3D chess game.

IN SHORT: Nothing would anger conservative voters more than Obama tackling immigration, which the conservative Governor of AZ is forcing Obama to do by passing this awful law. 

SvK


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Apr 24, 2010)

> A cop can't stop you unless you're breaking a law.



Not necessarily (in the US), cops can stop you for probable cause. They can stop you if they suspect something. They usually however, try to back it up with something else, such as a tail light being out. But in the real world, they can stop you for anything. They just have to deal with it in court later.


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## George Caplan (Apr 24, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Sat Apr 24 said:


> > A cop can't stop you unless you're breaking a law.
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily (in the US), cops can stop you for probable cause. They can stop you if they suspect something. .



well theyre hardly going to stop you just to say hello are they?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 24, 2010)

SvK, I think your analysis of the politics is right, but it's also a cynical ploy to exploit racism and divert peoples' attention from the real issues that concern us. It's really ugly.

Can you believe that John F-ing McCain is being challenged for not being conservative enough?!

Yuck. Ptooey.


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## José Herring (Apr 24, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Sat Apr 24 said:


> > A cop can't stop you unless you're breaking a law.
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily (in the US), cops can stop you for probable cause. They can stop you if they suspect something. They usually however, try to back it up with something else, such as a tail light being out. But in the real world, they can stop you for anything. They just have to deal with it in court later.



Probable cause is a sticky word and means different things to different races of people. I get harassed all the time for "probably cause" meaning that a black guy committed a crime and I happen to be in the area. So in AZ now being Mexican and wearing boots is now probable cause. I'm sure it will make some white people more comfortable but It amounts to duress for latinos. Let's just stop beating around the bush and really confront what this "law" really means. It's a step back in terms of fairness and equality. And lets face it. If you're Canadian and in AZ illegally then you'll hardly be noticed. But if you have brown skin then you're now a suspect whether you're there legally or not. I'm sure guys like Sherriff Joe Arpiao now feel totally vindicated in pursuing "justice" the way that he does. He can now go to downtown Phoenix, round up as many Mexicans as he can fit into the patty wagon and make them produce documentation. It's totally legal now. Because every Mexican dishwasher is now a suspect. 

Jose


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## SvK (Apr 24, 2010)

Nick...

My read on McCain was always that he was a principle-less contrarian, who liked taking the opposing view of his party simply to be noticed and "SEEM" important. So in a sense he's right. He's no maverick.

Can't stand him.

SvK


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 24, 2010)

The ultimate "get off my lawn" guy, as Paul Begala put it.


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## SvK (Apr 24, 2010)

Nick....

Hahaha


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## RiffWraith (Apr 24, 2010)

josejherring @ Sat Apr 24 said:


> If you're a poor Mexican in Arizona people automatically suspect that you're illegal.



Ok, now who's profiling?



josejherring @ Sat Apr 24 said:


> So how is the cop going to determine who's legal on who's not? He's gonna start asking Mexicans for I.D.



Well, _of course _he is going to start asking Mexicans for id in an attempt to determine who's legal and who's not. You don't see all that many whites who are here illegally, do you? Blacks? Nope. Asians? Nope. Common sense. 

There have been several burglaries near Main Street. Eyewitnesses have stated that they have seen a black male near the burglarized places around the time the incidents have happened. There has just been a break-in at a local grocery store, two blocks from Main Street. Police respond, and see two men - one black, and one white - walking away from the grocery store, one on one side of the street, the other on the other side. Who are the cops going to suspect, and which one of the men are going to be questioned? The white guy? Of course not. Common sense

Leigh, PA has a serial killer who has murdered four women. Detectives get a tip that the serial killer - description unknown - is in Motel 6, in either room 325, or 326. The detectives, not knowing what the killer looks like, knock on both doors. Out of room 325 steps a white man; out of 326 a Mexican man. Who are the detectives going to suspect? The Mexican? Of course not. How many Mexican serial killers are there? Common sense.

Point is, not to take it to heart when there are in fact people of your race/religion/whatever breaking the law. Look at my Dad - perfect example. He was born and raised in Cairo, has an Egyptian passport, and obviously, an Arabic last name: Hayat. Has been living here for over 40 years. Served in the US Armed Forces. Yet when he travels, 3/5 times, he gets stopped by TSA at the airport and searched. Why? Because he is Arabic. Racial profiling? Absolutely. Necessary? Debatable. Does he get pissed off? No. He takes it in stride, and deals with it, knowing full well that because there are Islamic terrorists out there, the government deems this a nessecary step. Whether it is or not, again, is debatable. And I understand it may be annoying, and a hassle, and whatever else to be here legally, obey the law, pay your taxes, etc., and to be suspected for being here illegally when you are not. I may not understand it at the same level you do, as I have not experienced it first hand. But try not to get pissed at the government for taking steps against an increasing illegal problem. What would you have the government do - nothing? I'd love to hear anyone's suggestions on what should be done, whether you agree with the AZ law or not.

Cheers.


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## José Herring (Apr 24, 2010)

RiffWraith @ Sat Apr 24 said:


> josejherring @ Sat Apr 24 said:
> 
> 
> > If you're a poor Mexican in Arizona people automatically suspect that you're illegal.
> ...



I don't know where you live but there a tons of Blacks, Whites and Asians that are here illegally. Does that me that we should require everybody to carry proof of citizenship? 

Most of the illegal whites come from Canada, England and Ireland and other European countries. Blacks come from the Dominican Republic and from African nations. Asians come usually from China, though I suspect there's some illegal Japanese here too. Though I haven't met any.

And it's one thing to racial profile which I don't approve of at all. It's another thing to mandate it legally on a State level. Do you know that the Cities of AZ now have the right to sue the state if they don't round up the illegal Mexicans? So now the state has a license to round up and intern people they "suspect" are here illegally. 

Don't know why you're defending it? This law has nasty implications. Not to mention the fact that of all the AZ yahoos that will start to "take the law into their own hands".

Nasty. Especially in a state that probably has more Mexicans in it now than any other group. Growing up there I remember the race riots of the '70's and early '80's. If this law sticks AZ will jump back about 40 to 50 years in race relations...Nasty.

Jose


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## gsilbers (Apr 25, 2010)

dunno in AZ but in CA everyone looks mexican even though they are 3rd or 4th generation american they look awfully lot liike they just crossed the border. 
and for those not aware on american history, there has been several times in history in CA where they rounded up mexican and deported them to mexico, the problem was.. most where not mexican they where american born cisitzens but they happened to look mexican but police didnt care.
so laws like this even though their purpose is to 
curve illigal immigration, can serve up a very bad precedent. 

and no its not only ID, its greencard or visa paperwork. so if you have brown skin in AZ you'll be asked for immigration paperwork. 
also, american born mexican have accents, which a police officer with no experience like an ICE agent can make someone's day miserable. 




to solve illigal immigration from mexico u have to see why their is migration. 
as a mixed bag of US economic policy with NAFTA, bad investing in mexico and jobs just being cheaper in china , not to mention that the price of corn fell 70% thus with no way to earn a living in agricultural and factories going to china they have not many options. 
they migrate to the US for jobs americans dont want and also fuels a huge drug cartel. 
which imo is 10 times for important than illigal immigration refrom. we dont see it here in the US that much unless u are in aborder town but violence in the noth of mexico is very very dangerous. and sometime spills here.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 25, 2010)

Nathan, it's easy to justify this any way you want. But it comes down to what I said above: when times get tough and the unemployment rate gets high, people look for a minority group to use as scapegoats.

In Arizona it's Mexicans; in Nazi Germany it was Jews (and gypsies, etc.). Thankfully we don't have hyperinflation or massive unemployment on the scale they had in post-WWI Germany. But this is exactly the same phenomenon at a lower level, and we should all be taking it VERY seriously.

It's frightening and it's disgusting.


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## José Herring (Apr 27, 2010)

gsilbers @ Sat Apr 24 said:


> i liked the SNL joke..
> 
> nothing more nazi police state than authorities asking for papers...
> there isn't a WWII movie that doesn't have the line "show me your papers"
> hitlers family gets a royalty check every time the line "show me your papers" is said



umhmmmm..
_“It is absolutely reminiscent of second class status of Jews in Germany prior to World War II when they had to have their papers with them at all times and were subject to routine inspections at the suspicion of being Jewish,” Rep. Jared Polis (D-Colo)_


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## José Herring (Apr 28, 2010)

Mike Greene @ Fri Apr 23 said:


> RiffWraith @ Fri Apr 23 said:
> 
> 
> > 2) ...requires local police officers to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they are illegal immigrants....
> ...



The Pima County Sherriff agrees with you. I grew up in Pima County and I'm glad that the local law enforcement is speaking up against the new "law". My heart was breaking for a moment thinking that my home town had gone completely mad. But it seems like more than a few prominent people are saying "no".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/2 ... 55895.html


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