# Mic recording level problem



## Soundhound (Jul 18, 2014)

I've always had trouble getting a decent recording level with my setup. I mostly do 'in the box' stuff with VIs, but I've been recording more vocals recently, and am actually getting set up for some voice over work, so I wanted to try and get this sorted out. I should say upfront my experience/expertise with this stuff is minimal so bear with me if you can!

For years my setup has been an iMac, with an original Motu 828 and an old Sennheiser 441 mic. I always had trouble getting enough level, and would pretty much turn the gain on the 828 input up all the way and have the singer get close to the mic. 

My setup has changed a bit now. I've got a newer iMac, the Apollo Twin interface and some of the UAD plugins. I also got a Cloudlifter to boost the mic signal. I tested this with both the 441 and a Shure SM58. Whether I'm just using the gain on the Console input channel, or the UAD 610b channel strip plugin, I have to crank the gain to get a decent signal level, and the resulting hiss is noticeable. With the Console inout gain I have to bring it up to about 75%, with the 610b I have to set the selector at the top to +5 or +10 and then have the input and output gains at 80% or all the way. It's the same with the Sennehisure and the Shure.

This can't be right, can it? I'm wondering if there's some setting in Logic Pro X I don't know about that's keeping the input gain low? 

Also, the Cloudlifter is supposed to give 25db of gain, but it looks to me like it's more like 10db. Does that sound right?

I'm about to get a new mic for voice over, just starting to research but I'm thinking about either a nice Condensor, U47 type, whatever I can ge for $6-700 or so, but also thinking about a Shure sm7b since my recording room isn't treated and supposedly they don't get as much ambient noise as a condenser. Will a condenser give me more gain? 

I just get the feeling something isn't right with signal level I get, but it's happened with two completely different setups now. I smell operator error. 

Thanks!


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## Jem7 (Jul 18, 2014)

Well, I'm not sure if I understanding your actual problem. If you recording in 24 bit you don't need to record very hot. When I record, I usually set it around -12db in DAW and never had problem. Making things louder is not problem anymore.

Some mic pres in audio interfaces not has so much gain or you need to crank the input because gain staging is designed that way.


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## Ron Snijders (Jul 18, 2014)

As Jem7 said, it's not bad for the recording to be relatively soft. You should be able to simply normalize it without introducing noise.
As for the condensor vs. dynamic thing: condensers picking up more ambient sounds is an urban legend. A mic's polar pattern defines how much ambience it will pick up, not its underlying technology. An SM7B is meant to be used very close, though. So that will pick up less ambient noise than any mic used further away.


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## Soundhound (Jul 18, 2014)

I think if I record with the input gain at about halfway, it will record at something like -30db, which seems like it's too low... I need to experiment more for sure. It seemed to me that having to crank everything in order to get it to a hearable level is introducing too much noise....


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## José Herring (Jul 18, 2014)

You need a good preamp with about 50db or more of gain to get a good signal from dynamic mics.


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## Soundhound (Jul 18, 2014)

these are some of the specs for the apollo twin mic inputs. should it have enough gain?

Microphone Inputs 1 & 2
Jack Type (combo mic/line balanced inputs) Female XLR Balanced (pin 2 positive)
Phantom Power (switchable per input) +48V
Dynamic Range (A–weighting) 118 dB
Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A–weighting) 118 dB
Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise –110 dBFS
Equivalent Input Noise –127 dB
Frequency Response 20 Hz – 20 kHz, ±0.1 dB
Common-Mode Rejection Ratio (CMRR) Greater than 70 dB (10’ cable)
Default Input Impedance 5.4K Ohms (variable via Unison preamp model)
Gain Range +10 dB to +65 dB
Pad Attenuation (switchable per input) 20 dB (variable via Unison preamp model)
Maximum Input Level (@ Minimum Gain, with Pad) 23.8 dBV
Maximum Input Level (@ Maximum Gain, with Pad) –31.2 dBV





josejherring @ Fri Jul 18 said:


> You need a good preamp with about 50db or more of gain to get a good signal from dynamic mics.


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## José Herring (Jul 18, 2014)

So that would be about right. It's a pretty weak preamp on the apollo it seems but workale. But, you would need to turn it up about 3/4 of the way in order to get signal.

And that Cloudfilter thing, just seems like it's getting in the way. It requires phatom power while your dynamic mics do not. Confusing


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## RiffWraith (Jul 18, 2014)

Jem7 @ Fri Jul 18 said:


> If you recording in 24 bit you don't need to record very hot.



Well, that's not exactly accurate. True 24-bit does give you a _little _more headroom than 16, but that shouldn't really dictate how hot you record.



josejherring @ Fri Jul 18 said:


> You need a good preamp with about 50db or more of gain to get a good signal from dynamic mics.



This ^.

Both the preamp AND the mic will make a difference in the signal strength. First off, the 441 is a very low op mic. Couple that with the MOTU, and you aren't looking at a very hot signal at all. A cloud lifter can help, but you are also increasing the preamp noise/hiss when you do that. 

If you are doing v.o. and other vocal work, you would be much better off with a large diaphragm condenser mic, and a hi-op mic pre.

Cheers.


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## Soundhound (Jul 18, 2014)

Ok thanks. I'm looking into the large diaphragm condenser thing, and a hi-op mic pre. Couple questions:

What does hi-op refer to (a lot of gain on tap?)

And would this be a hardware mic pre, not software? And would it conflict with the Apollo unison software mic Pre's? One of the reasons I got the Apollo was those are supposed to be great sounding...

And another recording 101 question. Large Diaphragm condenser mics have a lot higher output than dynamic mics?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 18, 2014)

What RiffWraith says. You need a mic preamp with more gain and/or to be close up for dynamic mics. Condenser mics have active electronics, and their output is higher.

By the way, it's a misconception that 24-bit audio has more headroom than 16. The headroom is identical whether it's 8-bit or 24; 0dB full scale is 0dBfs. What it has is more resolution, which good engineers use to capture low-level detail rather than to be lazy and record at too low a level.


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## José Herring (Jul 18, 2014)

Soundhound @ Fri Jul 18 said:


> Ok thanks. I'm looking into the large diaphragm condenser thing, and a hi-op mic pre. Couple questions:
> 
> What does hi-op refer to (a lot of gain on tap?)
> 
> ...



Higher output (op).

Mic pre's are hardware.

Built in mic pre's can be useful but seldom ideal.

Condenser mics are phantom powered and have a bit more output than dynamic mics. So, I generally only use dynamic mics for material that have loud transients, like drums, electric guitars, or in certain instances aggressive male vocals.

Though as Nick says if you can get your source close enough to the mic then you'll be able to get a good signal from dynamics as long as you have enough gain in your preamp available.

In general for the human voice I like to use a large diaphragm condenser mic going into a tube preamp, that gets fed into my audio interface. Ideally, I'd like to get a digital converter and bypass the converters on the audio interface all together.


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## Carbs (Jul 18, 2014)

I use an SM7b with my Apollo quad every day, the Apollo has more than enough gain for that mic (notorious for low output). I also own a cloud lifter, but it's not really necessary in this particular setup. When I'm doing my vocals (which range from low and silky to "aggressive") I normally have the gain set to about 48-53. I'll often stick an 1176 and la2a on the channel (setting "Insert Effects" to "Mon" - this way if I've overdone the compression I'm not living with it on the recorded take) and it helps evoke a better performance from myself.


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## RiffWraith (Jul 18, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Jul 19 said:


> By the way, it's a misconception that 24-bit audio has more headroom than 16. The headroom is identical whether it's 8-bit or 24; 0dB full scale is 0dBfs. What it has is more resolution, which good engineers use to capture low-level detail rather than to be lazy and record at too low a level.



Well, 24-bit does in fact give you slightly more headroom.

_...you could work with about 20dB more headroom in a 24-bit system without any increase in the apparent system noise over the 16-bit mode._

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun08/a ... 0608_2.htm

You can use google to find more articles, that will basically say the same. Not that I got my education from google, but....

In the end, it's about headroom. 24 bit does not give you better quality - as some people erroneously claim that they can hear - but it does give you more headroom, and a slightly better s/n ratio.

Cheers.


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## José Herring (Jul 18, 2014)

Carbs @ Fri Jul 18 said:


> I use an SM7b with my Apollo quad every day, the Apollo has more than enough gain for that mic (notorious for low output). I also own a cloud lifter, but it's not really necessary in this particular setup. When I'm doing my vocals (which range from low and silky to "aggressive") I normally have the gain set to about 48-53. I'll often stick an 1176 and la2a on the channel (setting "Insert Effects" to "Mon" - this way if I've overdone the compression I'm not living with it on the recorded take) and it helps evoke a better performance from myself.



Yeah, there should be according to the specs. 

Though you'd have to crank it. But it would be that way with any preamp and dynamic mics.

The thing that I found though is that if I have a preamp. I can turn it to just before it gets noisy, then, I can boost the gain slightly on the audio interface to get the additional signal level. So I don't have to rely on just one knob for all the gain, so nothing in the chain gets noisy. Also, I'm partial to tube preamps. Solid state stuff for solo voice and instruments just doesn't sound natural to me. Personal taste though.


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## Soundhound (Jul 18, 2014)

Carbs, when you say you have your input gain set to 45 to 53, does that 45 to 53 out of a hundred on the input gain on the Apollo? 

With my Sennheiser 441 I have to get the gain to about 75-80%. If I'm using the 610b plugin, I have to set it at +5 or +10, and pretty much crank both the input and the output. And in doing either of those things (using the regular gain on the Console channel, or using the plugin), I get too much noise. 

With your setup is the noise floor nice and low?


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## José Herring (Jul 18, 2014)

Also, make sure that you don't have any pad attenuation on the preamp. I just read the specs and it has a -20db pad.


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## Carbs (Jul 18, 2014)

Soundhound @ Fri Jul 18 said:


> Carbs, when you say you have your input gain set to 45 to 53, does that 45 to 53 out of a hundred on the input gain on the Apollo?
> 
> With my Sennheiser 441 I have to get the gain to about 75-80%. If I'm using the 610b plugin, I have to set it at +5 or +10, and pretty much crank both the input and the output. And in doing either of those things (using the regular gain on the Console channel, or using the plugin), I get too much noise.
> 
> With your setup is the noise floor nice and low?



I mean out of the possible +65db of gain, using the apollo pres without any unison plugins. I honestly got used to the way my voice sounds through them, and I prefer it to the 610 plugin most of the time. Normally, if I do use the 610b, I'll have the input +5, level knob set to between 2 and 3 o'clock (going for a saturated "tubey" sound) and the output is normally around noon. 

When using the vanilla apollo pres, I find I get an acceptable s/n ratio when set to aforementioned settings. In the context of a mix the tracks always sound great. Well, as great as they can with my voice...lol. 

I'm currently in the car heading for a relaxing weekend at the lake, but when I get back on Sunday I will test out all the unison plugins to compare s/n ratio between them and the vanilla pres for you since I can't remember off hand how they compare. 

Using an iphone to type this has been difficult lol.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 18, 2014)

Jeff, it's not worth getting into an argument about such a small point, but dynamic range and headroom are two different things.



> ..you could work with about 20dB more headroom in a 24-bit system without any increase in the apparent system noise over the 16-bit mode.



That's true, but there's a fairly subtle semantic point: you're recording at a lower level to get that additional headroom. The input voltage that reaches 0dBFS - all bits on - doesn't change with the number of bits. Either does the noise floor.

Point being, you could also record at the same level and pick up more low-level signal well into the noise floor. Whether you take the bits at the top or the bottom is up to you, but in my opinion it's usually better recording technique to record at a healthy level and use a compressor if you're having trouble not overloading your DAW. (You're going to use the compressor anyway, so why not.) Most equipment is designed to be used at its "nominal" level as a practical matter, so if you're twisting knobs unusually far in one direction, odds are it won't sound as good. That's no an absolute, of course, just a real-world comment.

In other words, 24-bit audio is about sound quality if you use the extra bits at the bottom.


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## Soundhound (Jul 18, 2014)

Roger on that. I have the pad off. If I turn it on can't hear a thing. 




Carbs @ Fri Jul 18 said:


> Also, make sure that you don't have any pad attenuation on the preamp. I just read the specs and it has a -20db pad.


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## Soundhound (Jul 18, 2014)

Thanks Carbs. Get on with your weekend and watch the road!!


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## Jem7 (Jul 19, 2014)

Also if you're recording and mixing at 85db recording hot sounds too loud. I don't want to record around -6db peak and lower my channel volume because of overloading daw.

With all new technology and new gear available today noise floor is getting really low these days. So if you don't record additional noise due cheap cables/gear or room noise it really doesn't sound better when you recording hot in DAW. One thing I notice is if you record too many hot tracks in DAW, it doesn't sound open and clear as when you have quieter tracks. It really doesn't work like tape machine.


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## Ron Snijders (Jul 19, 2014)

As mentioned a few times before: there is no reason to record hot in the 24-bit digital domain. Using a compressor on the way in to prevent clipping is the kind of thing that might've been great in the tape days, but why sacrifice control after tracking for a hotter signal that won't be any better than a signal tracked quieter if it's not needed today?

Some elaboration from Sound on Sound's Hugh Robjohns:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/a ... 0910-1.htm


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 19, 2014)

Ron, my answer is Because I'm not afraid to commit to using a compressor. It's opinion, that's all - there's no right or wrong.

And of course there's no reason to record "hot" with a digital recorder. But one reason to record at a decent level rather than being a sissy and recording at a low level is that you're also capturing low-level details. That's what I don't want to sacrifice - the detail in the spaces between notes.

Then you have some useful sound to bring up when you compress the whole mix and add density.


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## Ron Snijders (Jul 21, 2014)

Tracking at -18dB leaves you with 100dB of dynamic range on just about every 'alright' setup. That's orders of magnitude more than most mic setups. You're not losing any low-level detail by not tracking hot.
Tracking hot and even compressing on the way in can be a choice, of course. But it's not 'better'. It just gets you to the end result you prefer in a way comfortable to you. All the same information will be in a signal tracked at a lower volume. In 16bit, losing low-level detail was just about worth worrying about, in 24bit it's not.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 26, 2014)

Ron Snijders @ Mon Jul 21 said:


> Tracking at -18dB leaves you with 100dB of dynamic range on just about every 'alright' setup. That's orders of magnitude more than most mic setups. You're not losing any low-level detail by not tracking hot.
> Tracking hot and even compressing on the way in can be a choice, of course. But it's not 'better'. It just gets you to the end result you prefer in a way comfortable to you. All the same information will be in a signal tracked at a lower volume. In 16bit, losing low-level detail was just about worth worrying about, in 24bit it's not.



As someone who records vocals and acoustic stringed instruments daily, I totally agree. I use a Grace 101 preamp so I have a fair amount of level going in, but I never use a compressor going in because there's just no need. When self recording via an iPad controller in the booth, I just want to make sure levels are never too hot. I never have any trouble if they're low, just boost them internally and they sound fine.

Recording with compression going in is a leftover habit from the bad old analogue days when it actually was necessary, sometimes with unfortunate results regardless of how good the engineer was.


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## Carbs (Jul 27, 2014)

Soundhound @ Fri Jul 18 said:


> Thanks Carbs. Get on with your weekend and watch the road!!



Hiya Soundhound!

Sorry I'm tardy getting back to you. I went though all the emulations, and compared to the vanilla pres, and the s/n ratio was not increased when using any of the plugins. 

I recommend setting your track to the proper level (meaning not TOO hot...and not at some ridiculously low level..I aim for -18 to -12 and I'm happy). If you are having problems hearing yourself then throw a compressor on and crank the level up until you can hear yourself. Set the apollo console to 'Mon' so that you're NOT recording the plugin with your track. If you do...it may come back to bite you in the ass. However, you may get a better performance out of yourself, and then you'll also have a reasonably recorded level recorded into your DAW. There are also ways of recording the effected track long with a dry track, I suggest checking out the UAD forum on how to do that..because I can't exactly remember :lol: .


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