# Studying the Classical repertoire



## MikeH (Apr 15, 2012)

What are the seminal classical pieces that you feel most composers should study and be familiar with? I'm looking to broaden my studies and have only a rudimentary knowledge of classical repertoire from college. I'm mainly looking for instrumental-- chamber to large ensemble, but welcome any and all suggestions!

Thanks all!


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## dannthr (Apr 15, 2012)

What are you trying to study? What facet of music?


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## Dave Connor (Apr 15, 2012)

Haydn is very good to study because he says a ton with very small orchestral forces. He's an enormously creative composer and ruled the world in the art in his time. Mozart is more nuanced perhaps than the older master and astonishes quite often (and in numerous ways.) His genius is not easily penetrated though. Beethoven expands the orchestra sonically, formally and harmonically. He orchestrates his music perfectly with great, informed dexterity. Some people dismiss him as an orchestration model but all the orchestration books are chock full of examples from his work. No one ever orchestrated better really.

The great composers that follow these three expanded on their foundation so understanding that foundation is a vital key as it is in any art or science.


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## dannthr (Apr 16, 2012)

I don't know, I consider Ravel to be one of the best orchestrators.

Daphnis et Chloe is ridiculous in its timbral complexity.


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## José Herring (Apr 16, 2012)

MikeH @ Sun Apr 15 said:


> What are the seminal classical pieces that you feel most composers should study and be familiar with? I'm looking to broaden my studies and have only a rudimentary knowledge of classical repertoire from college. I'm mainly looking for instrumental-- chamber to large ensemble, but welcome any and all suggestions!
> 
> Thanks all!



Find a piece you like that excites your imagination, then study that. I study pieces that I found myself thinking, "wow, how did he do that?". You'll make huge strides that way because you have a personal connection to what you're studying.


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## Guy Bacos (Apr 16, 2012)

For orchestral music of great proportion, Richard Strauss is amazing, and for refinement, Ravel is unbeatable. But there are tons of others as well.


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## MikeH (Apr 16, 2012)

Thanks! I'm guess you could say I'm most interested in studying orchestration. But to be honest it's really about all facets of classical music. 

Jose, that's some really great advice. 

I've been studying Tchaikovsky's 4th which I'm really enjoying. Aside from that, the larger pieces I'm most familiar with (score-study wise) are The Planets, Rite of Spring, and Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta. 

What are some of your favorite pieces?


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## david robinson (Apr 16, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon Apr 16 said:


> MikeH @ Sun Apr 15 said:
> 
> 
> > What are the seminal classical pieces that you feel most composers should study and be familiar with? I'm looking to broaden my studies and have only a rudimentary knowledge of classical repertoire from college. I'm mainly looking for instrumental-- chamber to large ensemble, but welcome any and all suggestions!
> ...



very, very sound advice.
j.


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## Matt Christensen (Apr 16, 2012)

I am enjoying studying "How Ravel Orchestrated Mother Goose Suite" by Peter Lawrence Alexander. Some beautiful instrumental colours and combinations. I appreciate reading Peter's analysis as well as making my own observations.

Cheers
Matt


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## Guy Bacos (Apr 16, 2012)

Well orchestral colors and composition go hand in hand.


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## Matt Christensen (Apr 16, 2012)

In the book I mentioned above Ravel originally composed the suite for piano, then later orchestrated it.

In that instance orchestration ( that is his arrangement for orchestra) and his composition are somewhat separate.

Cheers
Matt


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## MikeH (Apr 16, 2012)

To diverge a little bit, I've always had difficulty doing reduced piano sketches, because for me the orchestration does go hand in hand with the composition. I think Herrmann felt the same way- always writing directly onto full score. 

Although I heard Howard Shore once tell students to never start orchestrating at the beginning, and to always do a reduced sketch. Different strokes, I guess!


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## Guy Bacos (Apr 16, 2012)

There are no rules for this. Ravel wrote for piano and then orchestrated it, however Mahler's orchestration is literally part of his composition process. But I think learning orchestral colors is just as important as the notes themselves, especially in the 21th century. Respighi, one of the finest orchestrator ever, marvelous colors, really his trademark surpassing the composition side.


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## Matt Christensen (Apr 16, 2012)

I agree, there is never only one way to work. Some compositions I start on piano just exploring chord progressions, others I am straight to notation, others I play into Logic. Just go with your inspiration I say...


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## dannthr (Apr 17, 2012)

If you want to study idiomatic writing and the orchestra in one piece, Béla Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra is incredible.


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## Alex Temple (Apr 17, 2012)

I love looking at Prokofiev's orchestral scores for study. His somewhat neoclassical style often uses a leaner approach to composition, where melodies are clear and articulate, which makes it easier from to see how they relate to their sophisticated supporting material. There is a lot to learn from the way he manages dissonance and unusual harmonies in while still keeping a strong tonal center. It helps that they're fun and exciting pieces.

If you're a little unfamiliar with his work the 5th Symphony is a good place to start. Not a lot of his works are public domain, but if you have access to a university library you should be able to find them them easily.


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## Goran (Apr 17, 2012)

It all depends upon what you want to learn. For example, for very elevated and sombre sounding string ensembles, study slow movements of Anton Bruckner's symphonies. Apart from containing some of the most touching music ever put to paper, these are masterful examples of effective and subtle orchestration for strings.

For some woodwind fireworks, study pieces like Tchaikovsky's _Manfred-Symphony_ or Rimski- Korsakov's _Sheherezade_. 

For some very extravagant contemporary playing techniques, study Helmut Lachenmann ... and so on...


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## Peter Alexander (May 10, 2012)

I think Dave Connor is closer to the mark, but my reasons are different.

I would start with small ensembles with smaller wood and brass sections.

Pick one Haydn and one Mozart. Then pick a movement and do a MIDI mockup of it. This is a much smaller string section and uses what sample developers call a "chamber" orchestra. String section sizes for these works today are 66442. So if you have LASS, use the C ensembles. Or Vienna Chamber.

Next is the classical sized orchestral with 12 Violins 1, etc. With LASS use C+B to recreate the section or Cinematic Strings. Look at Beethoven 3, 5, 7 or 9. With 7, second movement.

French composers in the 19th Century called the next sized orchestra the Dramatic Orchestra and it has 16 Violins 1, etc. So this is HS and/or LASS. Here you have lots of choices: Wagner (woods in 3s), Mahler (woods in 4s), the Rimsky, Stravinsky, Strauss, Debussy, Ravel, _then_ Prokofiev, Vaughan Williams, etc.

Some of the dramatic orchestras were used in operas while others in what's called programmatic pieces (Berlioz, Strauss, Debussy, Ravel and the Mahler symphonies).

From an orchestration/composition perspective there are three schools here and each is different in how the woods and brass are written for: French, German, and Russian.

For serious dramatic writing, check out the opening to Richard Wagner's Die Walkure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5RqfFPWSrE

Grab the score from www.imslp.org.


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## Peter Alexander (May 10, 2012)

Matt Christensen @ Mon Apr 16 said:


> I am enjoying studying "How Ravel Orchestrated Mother Goose Suite" by Peter Lawrence Alexander. Some beautiful instrumental colours and combinations. I appreciate reading Peter's analysis as well as making my own observations.
> 
> Cheers
> Matt



Thank you!


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## Peter Alexander (May 10, 2012)

MikeH @ Mon Apr 16 said:


> To diverge a little bit, I've always had difficulty doing reduced piano sketches, because for me the orchestration does go hand in hand with the composition. I think Herrmann felt the same way- always writing directly onto full score.
> 
> Although I heard Howard Shore once tell students to never start orchestrating at the beginning, and to always do a reduced sketch. Different strokes, I guess!



In the beginning, with our Professional Orchestration approach, we encourage you to reduce the score to 6 staves: grand staff each for woods, brass, strings. From there reduce it to 2-staves (piano).

The reason for this is that you can see better how the work was scored, harmony, use of counterpoint, etc. 

This link takes you to Mahler's 5th in his own hand. I think his process is best described as think, play it, sketch it, score it.

http://www.themorgan.org/music/manuscript/115214


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