# 2nd Keyboard for Keyswitches



## PaulieDC

I'm glad there's this new forum for noobs, now I'm not afraid to ask this incredibly stupid question: I'm now really getting hooked on orchestral composition, and it's pretty clear that an 88 key controller will one day grace my world. But for now I have the KK S49 (original flavor, not II) as my main keyboard. I also have a Novation Launchkey 25 under my desk doing awesome dust collection work. Can I set that up to do several functions, such as Keyswitches and even set its one fader for expression, leaving the Mod strip on the S49 for volume? If so, then I'll start googling on how to do that in my DAW. It'd just be nice to know the answer is yes before I waste time searching for something non-existent, lol. I know there are other/better solutions, but existing equipment has a lower price tag which really works at this point in time. 

Also, I don't know yet what I don't know, so if youse guyz have more tips on what else a second smaller keyboard controller could be used for in conjunction with a 49 key, fire away, I'm a dry sponge.

Thanks!


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## thereus

Are you intending to grow another hand, also?


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## PaulieDC

Nope. Single string and horns runs don't need 3 hands last time I checked. What third hand do people use for a FaderMaster? Thank you for such a value added response. Evidently us new guys really aren't welcome in this new forum. Sorry for wasting your time.


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## stonzthro

a lot of composers have a small keyboard along with their 88 key, just for key switches. Many developers put the key Switches out of range of the piano. I would think you could use a launchpad, so long as you assign the correct MIDI notes to the pads - should be fairly easy to do.


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## stonzthro

Ignore thereus' response - probably didn't grasp this is for general and beginner questions.


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## Mike Greene

stonzthro said:


> Ignore thereus' response - probably didn't grasp this is for general and beginner questions.


Good point. I'm going to add a "No snark" rule for this sub-forum. While I understand that such jokes may be good natured, it can be intimidating to someone who is new to this stuff.


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## PaulieDC

That's true Mike, we feel stupid enough even approaching with a question sometimes. BUT, I could have been nicer in my response to Thereus, I didn't even consider that he may have just been doing a friendly wink-wink nudge-nudge reply... I didn't need to chop his head off. Sorry for that. It'd be great if we could ask our stupid questions and kinda feel like it's OK.


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## Kevin Fortin

Great idea! I think it would depend on the DAW. You could try plugging them both in to see whether you can set them both to be active at the same time on the midi setup page/window of your DAW. Then it's a question of routing midi signals from both controllers into a track or midi clip for recording. Maybe Google "[name and version of DAW] record multiple midi inputs" -- that might be the quickest way to find out if and how it can be done for your DAW(s).


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## Nils Neumann

Actually this is a good idea! No stupid question at all. In Cubase you just have to plugin both keyboards and you should be good to go.


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## Nick Batzdorf

No snark? That means I can't insult people for being beginners?!

Damn!

Serious answer: every MIDI interface with more than one input, and both macOS and Windows, merges all MIDI input to the computer. It's a non-issue.

As someone wrote above, lots of composers use a separate mini-keyboard for keyswitches. M-Audio Oxygen8 and similar 2-8ve ones are popular for that. There's also no shortage of iPad apps that will send notes and/or program changes.

Most of the time an 88-key controller has enough out-of-range keys to use as keyswitches, though, so if one is in the cards, you might think hard about whether it makes sense to raid the treasury for a half-measure.


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## PaulieDC

Since I have no real experience I'll just jump in and see how it goes. Thanks stonzthro for the google search suggestion, did that and found out Studio One can do it, but also Kontakt has a way to assign keyboards to separate tracks, a different but equally cool feature. I've loved Studio One for audio tracking and mixing and especially mastering but I kept hearing what it can't do for MIDI. Then I started searching and found out v3.5 is pretty robust. Cubase users will miss the expression maps and it drives me nuts there's no ripple delete/edit, but they'll catch up, still the new kid in town. OK, commercial over.


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## PaulieDC

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Most of the time an 88-key controller has enough out-of-range keys to use as keyswitches, though, so if one is in the cards, you might think hard about whether it makes sense to raid the treasury for a half-measure.



Oh, I'll definitely end up with full 88 keys... I grew up on piano, 49 keys feels like the middle seat in coach in the back of the plane. 

I want to fight with my rig right now... I want it to be a jumbled mess and use what's on hand and be inconvenienced so I can figure out how all this stuff works and what doesn't. Then I'll know what I don't have when I go 88 shopping. I know, weird. I played guitar for a lot of years before investing $3K but now I pick that thing up and it's exactly what I want in how it feels and how it sounds.


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## thereus

PaulieDC said:


> Nope. Single string and horns runs don't need 3 hands last time I checked. What third hand do people use for a FaderMaster? Thank you for such a value added response. Evidently us new guys really aren't welcome in this new forum. Sorry for wasting your time.



Of course new members are welcome.

My remark was intended to be funny by virtue of its own intrinsic silliness not aimed at you or your newness. Hell, you might be hugely experienced for all I know. Still, if you have to explain a joke, then obviously it wasn’t funny so I will just say this;

Welcome. I hope you get a great deal out of being here. I do.


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## PaulieDC

thereus said:


> My remark was intended to be funny by virtue of its own intrinsic silliness not aimed at you or your newness.



Unfortunately that concept hit me later in the morning, that maybe you were just having a little fun and not trying to put someone down. I shouldn’t have replied like that; look up a couple replies, even told Mike Greene that. Sorry for raising a useless dust cloud... if it’s cool with you I’d like to send a 121 Reset command and start over (is that the right Ch Mode Msg? Am I even asking the right question??).


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## sinkd

I have an M-Audio 25 key for just this purpose (esp. Spitfire keyswitches) as well as lots of useful assignable knobs and patch select messaging for some stuff that I still organize in Kontakt banks.


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## rrichard63

Off topic, but I want to say that -- even though I'm not quite as new as PaulieDC says he is -- I learned something from this. I have a second controller for drum pads and knobs, but it never occurred to me to have one for keyswitches (until I change my setup, I don't have room for an 88 key controller). Thanks, all!


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## higgs

I've been using a Korg nanoPAD2 for articulation switching for the last year or so and it's been great. 

That said, this thread has me thinking about using a CME X-Key 25 that's been severely neglected. The keys are really only useful if I'm traveling (and want everything to be smlr) or in life or death situations, or if I just want to beat my head against a brick wall for a bit.

The CME editor is awesome and super friendly and you can map just about anything you want with it.






Several of the available options are seemingly ways to overcome the shortcomings of the key bed. I almost think that this flavor of CME was secondarily designed as a keyboard. It will shine for CC control, and because of it's super low profile it can fit in many places that other mini keyboards can't.


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## thereus

PaulieDC said:


> Unfortunately that concept hit me later in the morning, that maybe you were just having a little fun and not trying to put someone down. I shouldn’t have replied like that; look up a couple replies, even told Mike Greene that. Sorry for raising a useless dust cloud... if it’s cool with you I’d like to send a 121 Reset command and start over (is that the right Ch Mode Msg? Am I even asking the right question??).



More seriosly, if my joke was aimed at anything, it was aimed at just what a horrible solution keyswitching is. A string section has so many different ways of changing the sound moment by moment so that it can create long drawn-out shapes with huge variety, subtlety and expression. We take our hands off the instrument to jab at a bank of option buttons. How do we ever expect to emulate an orchestra?


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## whinecellar

Man, along these lines, I recently had a “duh” moment when trying to solve the age-old problem of fitting an 88-note controller in an overhead compartment 

...I’m now bringing 3 mini keyboards (a Yamaha Reface, Korg Minilogue and an Akai something-or-other) with me in a 24-inch bag - each covers 3 octaves, so it’s a fun way to cheat. And the Reface & Minilogue, despite the mini keys, actually feel pretty decent and have full-range velocity response - they don’t feel like 99% of the crappy mini “controllers” out there. Finally, the Korg is quite a nice little analogue synth!

Anyway, to the OP, yeah - go for it!


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## JohnG

I use a little Akai LPK25 for keyswitches. There is nothing particularly magic about it but it "runs good"


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## synthpunk

Your going to have to stay being nice I guess @Nick Batzdorf 



Nick Batzdorf said:


> No snark? That means I can't insult people for being beginners?!
> 
> Damn!


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## stonzthro

JohnG said:


> I use a little Akai LPK25 for keyswitches. There is nothing particularly magic about it but it "runs good"


Same here - seems pretty foolproof (perfect for myself).


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## dathyr1

I have a couple things I use or could use for note keyswitches. Since I have a Korg Triton 61 note sampler keyboard I invested in two things. like others said already, I also have an two octave AKAI MPK25 for just such tasks. My Korg keyboard is connected via standard midi to USB adaptor and the AKAI has its own USB plugin chord. That way Both devices can easily be merged on the same Midi channel by selection in the music application. That way I can adjust the MPK25 to the range where I assign the keyswitches, Plus the MPK25 has keypads, fader knobs, etc to do other things.

Now I also have a Midi guitar which I need both hands, so I looked around online and picked up Keith Mcmillen Softstep 2 foot controller which has 10 foot switches and can control midi notes and several other parameters. It has the same scenario, The guitar would be plugged into the standard Midi to USB adaptor and the Softstep has its own USB plugin chord. Both can also be also merged on the same midi channel. Note: I have used the AKAI MPK25 also with the Midi Guitar just for use of the sustain footpedal since my Midi Guitar does not have built in sustain control. Sustain with a guitar give me some cool effects.

With the Softstep 2 it took me a little bit to get used to it physically since I have big feet and the Softstep swtiches are somewhat small, in two rows and fairly close to each other. Most the time I use the lower 5 switches which are easy to get to and select. The Softstep 2 does have good weight to it, so it does not slide around.

So that is the two things I use from time to time which take care of one hand free or no hands free.

take care,
Dave

PS: Note- I went with these two devices because I first tried merging two standard midi devices together to get them on same midi channel and the MIDI pocket merger I used which was from a good company would not work, even had help from their support team. So once I got the MPK25 first and then the softstep 2 with their own USB cables, all worked great. My Korg keyboard does not have a USB cable, just standard MIDI ports. This info is just to pass along what I went through if you just have standard Midi devices.


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## gsilbers

PaulieDC said:


> I'm glad there's this new forum for noobs, now I'm not afraid to ask this incredibly stupid question: I'm now really getting hooked on orchestral composition, and it's pretty clear that an 88 key controller will one day grace my world. But for now I have the KK S49 (original flavor, not II) as my main keyboard. I also have a Novation Launchkey 25 under my desk doing awesome dust collection work. Can I set that up to do several functions, such as Keyswitches and even set its one fader for expression, leaving the Mod strip on the S49 for volume? If so, then I'll start googling on how to do that in my DAW. It'd just be nice to know the answer is yes before I waste time searching for something non-existent, lol. I know there are other/better solutions, but existing equipment has a lower price tag which really works at this point in time.
> 
> Also, I don't know yet what I don't know, so if youse guyz have more tips on what else a second smaller keyboard controller could be used for in conjunction with a 49 key, fire away, I'm a dry sponge.
> 
> Thanks!




Some newer keyboard controllers have a touchpad for mpc or to do percusion but those buttons can be assigned to midi notes way below where the keyswitches happen. so a 61 keys with those pads will get you good range and also have the pads to do keyswitches. so basically a launchkey61 and similar can do that.


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## markleake

I've went through a fair few midi keyboards (3 to be precise) before I found what works well for me. Expensive mistakes they were. I now use the Korg microKEY and nanoKONTROL2.

But I'd forgotten about the nanoKEY... I had intended to get one a year or so ago to solve the keyswitch problem, but never did. Thanks for reminding me!


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## leon chevalier

I use the percussion pads for key switching ! So I do not need a second keyboards.


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## chimuelo

leon chevalier said:


> I use the percussion pads for key switching ! So I do not need a second keyboards.


That’s what I got my boy for his BDay.
The Akai has lots of other features too, especially for FL Sudio 12.5.




Then if you want to keep both hands playing and have a decent controller that allows new assignments per preset, I use an FS-6.
It can be latched, or unlatched.
I like having a default sustain Articultaion, then stepping on Button A is a Section Shake, that defaults back to Sustain Artic. Button B is Section Falls, also defaults back to Sustain Artic.


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## dathyr1

chimuelo said:


> That’s what I got my boy for his BDay.
> The Akai has lots of other features too, especially for FL Sudio 12.5.



To Chimuelo,
May I ask how is the Akai Advance 10 key action is for fast playing far as a smooth light touch feeling?

I have a smaller AKAI MPK25 and it has a much stiffer feel to the keys than my Korg Triton, so I don't use the AKAI for playing, just controlling things.

None of the stores in my area have the AKAI advance 10 on display so would need to test one before I would think about buying it.

I like the looks of it with the fader knobs and pads.

thanks for any info,
Dave


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## chimuelo

Only play with it briefly but it works fine for me.

Not a big fan of fake/“real” Piano action.
Although I’m humored as usual @ Gearslutz for guys wanting Heavy Action 61 note controllers.

I don’t get it.
I dreaded recitals as a kid.
No warm ups, different Pianos everytime.
So I fear no electronic controllers....


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## benatural

JohnG said:


> I use a little Akai LPK25 for keyswitches. There is nothing particularly magic about it but it "runs good"


Same here.


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## Nick Batzdorf

synthpunk said:


> Your going to have to stay being nice I guess @Nick Batzdorf



Not to beginners. You have to be an expert for that.


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## PaulieDC

thereus said:


> ...it was aimed at just what a horrible solution keyswitching is... How do we ever expect to emulate an orchestra?


I’m all ears... I assumed you have to use keyswitching because people say they use it. What’s the alternative for all the articulations? The only thing my inexperienced mind can think of is separate articulation on each track, but then how do you play a violin line with different attacks if it’s all separate tracks? I have to be missing something somewhere. Or do you record the notes then somehow change articulations afterwards?


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## PaulBrimstone

PaulieDC, I'm no expert, but you could also consider using something like Metagrid on an iPad (USB wired, not wi-fi). That way you can set up custom banks to change articulations via CCs, especially if using libraries like Spitfire with their UACC system. It takes a little while to set up but is actually very simple, and works quite well, assuming your DAW can chase MIDI. There are lots of threads here about the subject if you do a search. Then there are articulation switching scripts such as SkiSwitcher ... and there are many who swear by separate tracks for each artic, although that becomes a mess if you intend to print out your scores. It's all a bit of a rabbit hole but you just have to jump in and try out a few ideas until one sticks with the way you work. I'd chase up Metagrid in the first instance, if I were you. I used to have a tiny Arturia keyboard for key switching, but who wants to remember where each key is located, especially once you acquire several libraries?


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## PaulieDC

I'll definitely pull up Metagrid and see what it is, thanks. I'll also Google "chase MIDI" to figure out what on earth that means (we're in noob world don't forget, lol). I still have no idea what the alternative to keyswitching is, but when you guys/glad post these jam-packed replies with terms, I go a-huntin', so it's all good!

FYI, methinks SkiSwitcher is for people with real DAWs on real computers (Logic on Macs). Due to my software dev job and my investment in my tower for video editing, I'm committed to the Win10 nightmare. And I have 4 tears experience with Studio One, so I'. going to stick with them and ride out the storm until they beef up their MIDI sections. There is some sanity while in my Windoze world, I turn around and peek at my SE/30 once in a while. Does have Master Tracks Pro 5 on it (and still runs!), I actually started MIDI exploration in '92 with a Proteus MPS+ but then life took a different very cool turn, but that part was shelved. SO, can you guys imagine someone like me who steps back into MIDI history last year and sees and hears all that is available? That's why I'm so clueless to all this! But blown away by what's available, went to my neighbor's to get my socks back when I heard EW Orchestra Diamond. Bought that on sale plus KU11 & Symphony Strings and Brass. MORE than enough to start, but now I have these great tools and music ideas in my noggin, with 2017 technology in front of me and MAN it's awesome and overwhelming, especially this keyswitch thing. Sorry for the ramble, but that's why I'm really latching onto this noob forum, I'm still in MIDI diapers.


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## PaulBrimstone

PaulieDC said:


> I'll definitely pull up Metagrid and see what it is, thanks. I'll also Google "chase MIDI" to figure out what on earth that means (we're in noob world don't forget, lol). I still have no idea what the alternative to keyswitching is, but when you guys/glad post these jam-packed replies with terms, I go a-huntin', so it's all good!
> 
> FYI, methinks SkiSwitcher is for people with real DAWs on real computers (Logic on Macs). Due to my software dev job and my investment in my tower for video editing, I'm committed to the Win10 nightmare. And I have 4 tears experience with Studio One, so I'. going to stick with them and ride out the storm until they beef up their MIDI sections. There is some sanity while in my Windoze world, I turn around and peek at my SE/30 once in a while. Does have Master Tracks Pro 5 on it (and still runs!), I actually started MIDI exploration in '92 with a Proteus MPS+ but then life took a different very cool turn, but that part was shelved. SO, can you guys imagine someone like me who steps back into MIDI history last year and sees and hears all that is available? That's why I'm so clueless to all this! But blown away by what's available, went to my neighbor's to get my socks back when I heard EW Orchestra Diamond. Bought that on sale plus KU11 & Symphony Strings and Brass. MORE than enough to start, but now I have these great tools and music ideas in my noggin, with 2017 technology in front of me and MAN it's awesome and overwhelming, especially this keyswitch thing. Sorry for the ramble, but that's why I'm really latching onto this noob forum, I'm still in MIDI diapers.



Spending some quality time in the archives of VI-Control will be very fruitful for you, PaulieDC. Pretty much any and every question has been broached at some point, with a plethora of answers, usually. It's a treasure of a resource, really: I'm always grateful that real working pros take the time to help out hobbyists, when they could be off earning money instead. Good luck on the quest and remember we were all in diapers once (and will be again before long, ugh).


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## PaulieDC

PaulBrimstone said:


> remember we were all in diapers once (and will be again before long, ugh).


Tell me about it...  when did we become our parents' age??


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## PaulieDC

chimuelo said:


> I dreaded recitals as a kid.
> No warm ups, different Pianos everytime.
> So I fear no electronic controllers....



ROFL! Priceless...


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## halfwalk

I personally use an old 1st-gen iPad (maybe it's 2nd-gen, not sure... it's from before they started putting cameras on them), running TouchOSC. I built a template that has clearly labeled keyswitches as buttons, and they send MIDI notes corresponding to keyswitches for my various libraries. It took a couple hours to set up for my needs, but it really helps my workflow. It's nice because each button is labeled, so I don't have to remember which key is which articulation, which can be handy because they aren't necessarily universal among all developers.

I've also color-coded each set of buttons to match the colors in my template. String tracks are green in my DAW, so the string articulation buttons on my TouchOSC template are also green. I'm starting to delve into learning OSC, and specifically, ReaperOSC, so that hitting "Albion Hi String Legato" on the iPad actually selects and arms that particular track in my DAW as well. But that's getting a bit more advanced, and I haven't quite wrapped my head around it yet.

Another plus side is, I also have a page set up to work as a DAW controller, so I can flip to the first page of my TouchOSC template and control Reaper's transport and mixer via OSC, as well as having a few sliders that I can MIDI-learn to any parameters I might need later on.

This antiquated iPad that was just gathering dust is now an essential part of my studio, as a transport controller, articulation selector, and fader/knob bank. I got TouchOSC for maybe $10.

I'd imagine you could do something very similar with a much cheaper tablet as well.


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## PaulieDC

halfwalk said:


> I personally use an old 1st-gen iPad (maybe it's 2nd-gen, not sure... it's from before they started putting cameras on them), running TouchOSC.


Whoa, I was thinking about posting a question if anyone was using an iPad solution, and ba da BING, there you are! Thanks, I'll definitely research that app.


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## premjj

halfwalk said:


> I personally use an old 1st-gen iPad (maybe it's 2nd-gen, not sure... it's from before they started putting cameras on them), running TouchOSC. I built a template that has clearly labeled keyswitches as buttons, and they send MIDI notes corresponding to keyswitches for my various libraries. It took a couple hours to set up for my needs, but it really helps my workflow. It's nice because each button is labeled, so I don't have to remember which key is which articulation, which can be handy because they aren't necessarily universal among all developers.
> 
> I've also color-coded each set of buttons to match the colors in my template. String tracks are green in my DAW, so the string articulation buttons on my TouchOSC template are also green. I'm starting to delve into learning OSC, and specifically, ReaperOSC, so that hitting "Albion Hi String Legato" on the iPad actually selects and arms that particular track in my DAW as well. But that's getting a bit more advanced, and I haven't quite wrapped my head around it yet.
> 
> Another plus side is, I also have a page set up to work as a DAW controller, so I can flip to the first page of my TouchOSC template and control Reaper's transport and mixer via OSC, as well as having a few sliders that I can MIDI-learn to any parameters I might need later on.
> 
> This antiquated iPad that was just gathering dust is now an essential part of my studio, as a transport controller, articulation selector, and fader/knob bank. I got TouchOSC for maybe $10.
> 
> I'd imagine you could do something very similar with a much cheaper tablet as well.



Thank you for posting this. It had never occurred to me to use my android device for managing keyswitches. Else I struggle to locate out-of-range keyswitches on my 61 key keyboard currently. Really messes with the workflow. 

Google Play Store does seem to have some apps with similar functionality. Will try them out.


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## Rob Elliott

Great thread. Really. I am NOW going to set up my Alias 8 midi slider/button controller to this task (to the buttons which have largely been ignored.) Haven't tested yet but sure it will work.


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## Ashermusic

Korg MicroKey here.


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## Leon Portelance

I have a Nektar 25+ for keyswitching using ARTzID. My main keyboard is a Yamaha P-140.


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## jaketanner

Korg Microkey 37 II here. And I have to tell you, the feel is quite good to use as an input keyboard as well...


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## agarner32

I use my iPad and Metagrid. I made a page dedicated to key switches and they're all nicely labeled. It's super easy and no extra keyboard.


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## thesteelydane

Before I went to an iPad based solution, I used my Keith McMillen QuNexus for exactly that. It's a bit overkill for that, given all it can do, but there's now a simpler (and cheaper) version called the K-board: https://www.keithmcmillen.com/products/k-board/

Extremely low profile and compact 2nd keyboard. Pretty much unbreakable too. Highly recommend.


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## Alex Fraser

Korg NanoKey2 here. Brought because:

The keys look similar to the ones displayed on Logic's articulation keyswitch screen.
It looks pretty next to my matching NanoKontrol 2 and completes some sort of weird, deep seated personal compulsion I have for things to match.


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## PaulieDC

thereus said:


> Are you intending to grow another hand, also?


So 5 years ago as a noob to the forum, you replied to my question about multiple keyboards, keyswitches, blah blah blah... and I replied with some weeny/attitudy "noobs aren't welcome" reply (totally surprised to read that was me!). I just came across it again in my history, curious to see what stupid question I posted, and your reply just killed me, I am still cracking up, it was perfect. I'm sure you don't remember it but my apologies for 5 years ago, and tonight I need to stop laughing so I can get to bed.  Scroll to the top of the thread and you'll see it in context. Ah, memories.


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