# Graphics cards for DAW use



## Guy Rowland (Jan 11, 2014)

Just going through some graphics cards options for my new build. At the moment in my current rig I have 2x Radeon HD5450s, which drive 4 monitors. They basically work fine, but Waves 9 plugins have a grey gui - a known issue with some card configs. Waves have a long standing stupid policy of not supporting multiple graphics cards, but reading on the net the GeForce series seem to play much happier than the Radeon series (no guarantees though).

So I'm looking at 2x basic fanless GT 610s. I'm very keen to have them fanless for obvious noise reasons, and also have the power consumption as low as possible (leading to less heat dissipation, presumably). But am I missing something? Is there anything at all to be gained by slightly higher end cards? There are some beefier fanless designs, but if that's at the expense of more heat and power, without really giving any real world benefits in DAW use, I'll skip them.

I'm running Pro Tools 10, Cubase 7.5 and occasionally Media Composer 7. It'll be a windows 7 64 bit system, with an x79 deluxe mobo.


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## khollister (Jan 11, 2014)

Can't speak to Waves, but I've seen mentioned that Nvidia drivers are more prone to DPC latency issues than AMD/ATI. If you currently have 4 monitors working now, why change?

FWIW, I have a single AMD 6570 fanless card in my new 4930/X79-Deluxe build and get 25-25 us per dpclat.exe even with the on-board WiFi on.


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## Daryl (Jan 11, 2014)

Nvidia cards used to be a potential problem for DAW use, but I've been told by quite a few people that this is no longer the case.

D


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 11, 2014)

khollister @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> Can't speak to Waves, but I've seen mentioned that Nvidia drivers are more prone to DPC latency issues than AMD/ATI. If you currently have 4 monitors working now, why change?.



Well, the clue was right there in the "Waves" bit...



khollister @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> FWIW, I have a single AMD 6570 fanless card in my new 4930/X79-Deluxe build and get 25-25 us per dpclat.exe even with the on-board WiFi on.



That's the same mobo / cpu processor I'm looking at. What does 25-25 us per dpclat.exe mean?



Daryl @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> Nvidia cards used to be a potential problem for DAW use, but I've been told by quite a few people that this is no longer the case.



Thanks Daryl, that's good to hear.


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## chimuelo (Jan 11, 2014)

Haswells GPU has multiple monitor support as does the HD4000 from Ivy Bridge.

Saw many rigs and laptops running multi monitor support at CES and they don't draw system resources or draw power from the CPU.
AMD has a new CPU which was gathering steam with gamers as it DOES share system resources, which made the gamers quite feverish as they want higher frame rates, etc.

I use the Scope GUI where the GUI is psuedo 3D using more resources than a 2D DAW. 
I can stack devices and external hardware connections using the GUI for access to the hardwares' settings, and that requires more refreshes than our 2D DAWs or in my case Reaper and Bidule.
2 monitors on the less powerful/dated HD4000 is a walk in the park, and even running HD Video on the 2nd monitor is easy. 120Hz refresh rate on a 52" LCD is also trouble free for when Jr. runs his XBox and netflix stuff.

Check into the newer HD5000 GFX w/ multi-monitor support.
I doubt there's any DPC since the GPU is on die.

Just a thought.


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## khollister (Jan 11, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> khollister @ Sat Jan 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Can't speak to Waves, but I've seen mentioned that Nvidia drivers are more prone to DPC latency issues than AMD/ATI. If you currently have 4 monitors working now, why change?.
> ...



I still don't get what the problem is with Waves - are you saying the 5450's don't render gray tones properly? And that this is somehow connected with using multiple monitors?

The only thing I can imagine is that the cards don't support the color depth required to distinguish the shades of gray when driving 2 monitors - never heard of that as a problem specific to AMD.

I meant to say 25-35 micro-seconds is the DPC latency reported by the dpclat.exe program (http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml).


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 11, 2014)

chimuelo @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> Haswells GPU has multiple monitor support as does the HD4000 from Ivy Bridge.
> 
> Saw many rigs and laptops running multi monitor support at CES and they don't draw system resources or draw power from the CPU.
> AMD has a new CPU which was gathering steam with gamers as it DOES share system resources, which made the gamers quite feverish as they want higher frame rates, etc.
> ...



Fundamental question - how do you use the internal graphics of a CPU when the mobo (such as the x79 deluxe) has no video connections (let alone 4 of them?)


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 11, 2014)

khollister @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> I still don't get what the problem is with Waves - are you saying the 5450's don't render gray tones properly? And that this is somehow connected with using multiple monitors?
> 
> The only thing I can imagine is that the cards don't support the color depth required to distinguish the shades of gray when driving 2 monitors - never heard of that as a problem specific to AMD.
> 
> I meant to say 25-35 micro-seconds is the DPC latency reported by the dpclat.exe program (http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml).



Waves - when I say a grey GUI, I mean literally that - everything is just blank and grey, so no way to control anything. Apparently it has something to do with the way AMD implement multiple calls on OpenGL when using more than one card (and nVidia does it differently). Needless to say, I don't have a clue what that actually means, only that I know Waves 9 is broken for me (Waves 8, perversely, runs absolutely fine).

Thanks for the info on latency.


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## rgames (Jan 11, 2014)

If you do any video editing with Adobe products, they like the CUDA cores in the GeForce chips. Other than that I think it's basically a wash. I use a GTX 660 in my DAW.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the DPC latency unless you have problems with clicks and pops. I've used systems that range from 10 us up to 200 us DPC latency and haven't seen a difference in performance. My 4930k is around 100 us on DPCLatency checker and LatencyMon shows about 600 us max from the NVidia driver (my i7-920 was basically exactly the same). My i5 2500k slave is around 40 us with a $25 fanless ATI card.

If you start getting 500+ us on DPCLatencyChecker or 1000+ us on LatencyMon then you'll probably get clicks and pops in your audio. But once you go below the threshold for your system there doesn't seem to be much advantage to pushing it down further.

DPC Latency Checker and LatencyMon are handy for finding BIG problems but tweaking them doesn't seem to buy much. In other words, a project that produces pops at 200 us also produces pops at 50 us. If you have problems with clicks/pops, then you can look at DPC latency as a potential cause. But until then, I wouldn't worry about it.

rgames


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## khollister (Jan 11, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> Waves - when I say a grey GUI, I mean literally that - everything is just blank and grey, so no way to control anything. Apparently it has something to do with the way AMD implement multiple calls on OpenGL when using more than one card (and nVidia does it differently). Needless to say, I don't have a clue what that actually means, only that I know Waves 9 is broken for me (Waves 8, perversely, runs absolutely fine).
> 
> Thanks for the info on latency.



Ah! Now I understand the problem.

I really can't help with a solution but I did find some threads on the Waves problem. It seems to be an issue with more than 2 monitors regardless of whose GPU is used (some high end Nvidia cards do 3 monitors - it appears those don't work either).

It strikes me that the odds of getting this to work with a 2 Nvidia GPU's is pretty slim as well. 

Good luck


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## khollister (Jan 11, 2014)

rgames @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> If you do any video editing with Adobe products, they like the CUDA cores in the GeForce chips. Other than that I think it's basically a wash. I use a GTX 660 in my DAW.
> 
> I wouldn't get too hung up on the DPC latency unless you have problems with clicks and pops. I've used systems that range from 10 us up to 200 us DPC latency and haven't seen a difference in performance. My 4930k is around 100 us on DPCLatency checker and LatencyMon shows about 600 us max from the NVidia driver (my i7-920 was basically exactly the same). My i5 2500k slave is around 40 us with a $25 fanless ATI card.
> 
> ...



on a somewhat different note, Richard, I saw your thread over on Gearslutz a while back where you were having trouble with the 4930 build. Did you get to the bottom of what was screwing up the performance?


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 11, 2014)

khollister @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> I really can't help with a solution but I did find some threads on the Waves problem. It seems to be an issue with more than 2 monitors regardless of whose GPU is used (some high end Nvidia cards do 3 monitors - it appears those don't work either).
> 
> It strikes me that the odds of getting this to work with a 2 Nvidia GPU's is pretty slim as well.
> 
> Good luck



Yeah - it's hard to pin down. Some folks run 2 or 3 monitors off one card successfully, others don't (both Matrox and AMD are confirmed bad though). The Waves "solution" - to say they don't support more than one monitor - is laughable. But I recently read threads that said the GeForce series plays better, the way it handles OpenGL is different. No idea if that's true.

Incidentally, I don't think I mentioned this important point, but it's only an issue in PT, Cubase is fine. I've got a live thread on it at DUC, I've just asked there how people with GeForce cards are getting on.

On the broader point of the thread though - seems like everyone is agreed that the bottom of the range cards work every bit as well as higher end ones for DAW use?

(and a PS to Richard - the video editing I do is on Avid MC7, no Adobe use, so to that extent it shouldn't matter for me).


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## Symfoniq (Jan 11, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> Fundamental question - how do you use the internal graphics of a CPU when the mobo (such as the x79 deluxe) has no video connections (let alone 4 of them?)



Sandy Bridge-E and Ivy Bridge-E don't feature integrated video, which is why the X79 motherboards don't have video outputs.

Various consumer/prosumer Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge processors (on a Z87 chipset, for example) do support integrated video.


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 8, 2014)

So since it does appear that multiple GeForce plays nice with Waves, I'm looking at 2x fanless Asus GT 610s. Big old heatsinks, but shouldn't be a problem I think with an X79 deluxe.

I see it's available in 1GB or 2GB versions - any pros and cons? I suppose I'm thinking about them running as efficiently as possible re power / temperature.

Interestingly, I see Scan here in the UK aren't shipping any of their audio systems with GeForce cards - "Due to driver issues with Pro Audio hardware, we are not supplying NVIDIA cards in audio systems at this time". Anyone know of anything?


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## Reegs (Feb 8, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Feb 08 said:


> So since it does appear that multiple GeForce plays nice with Waves, I'm looking at 2x fanless Asus GT 610s. Big old heatsinks, but shouldn't be a problem I think with an X79 deluxe.
> 
> I see it's available in 1GB or 2GB versions - any pros and cons? I suppose I'm thinking about them running as efficiently as possible re power / temperature.
> 
> Interestingly, I see Scan here in the UK aren't shipping any of their audio systems with GeForce cards - "Due to driver issues with Pro Audio hardware, we are not supplying NVIDIA cards in audio systems at this time". Anyone know of anything?



More onboard memory is helpful if you're planning to do anything graphics intensive (or game). 1GB should be adequate for daily general use and even most smaller 3D models, but I'd spring for 2GB since the price difference seems to be only $10 on Newegg. Any plans to ever have to deal with video rendering or 3D work off the MC7?

For completeness I pulled the trigger on that 760 I mentioned in the other thread, and I can confirm firsthand that on idle, my 2TB Seagate is louder than its fans. And I don't have any driver issues. Sonar and Soundforge are my primary apps, for what it's worth.


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 8, 2014)

Reegs @ Sat Feb 08 said:


> More onboard memory is helpful if you're planning to do anything graphics intensive (or game). 1GB should be adequate for daily general use and even most smaller 3D models, but I'd spring for 2GB since the price difference seems to be only $10 on Newegg. Any plans to ever have to deal with video rendering or 3D work off the MC7?
> 
> For completeness I pulled the trigger on that 760 I mentioned in the other thread, and I can confirm firsthand that on idle, my 2TB Seagate is louder than its fans. And I don't have any driver issues. Sonar and Soundforge are my primary apps, for what it's worth.



Thank you Reegs. If MC7 could make use of 2GB and it doesn't use any more power (significantly) then I'll go for that one - it's actually under £2 difference at Amazon at the moment! Good to hear the 760 is working out for you.


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## germancomponist (Feb 8, 2014)

I use 2 monitors and my PC has no graphic card.


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## Diffusor (Feb 8, 2014)

Nvidia NVS 450. Support for 4 monitors . Works great.


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## DynamicK (May 26, 2014)

Diffusor @ Sun Feb 09 said:


> Nvidia NVS 450. Support for 4 monitors . Works great.


Anybody recommend some other cards that have 3 -4 outputs from a single card? I've tried one of those USB graphic add ons, but it's useless, so looking for a single multi port card...not too expensive either :D Thanks


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## Pietro (May 27, 2014)

Unfortunately, as far as I know, if you are into 3-4 outputs, then either you are stuck with very expensive professional cards, loud AMG gaming cards (3 outputs max), or with cheap and totally silent but 2 cards.

I picked the last option. Cheap, cool and 4 outputs available.

- Piotr


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## DynamicK (May 27, 2014)

Pietro, how did you configure your 2 cards? I have only one graphics slot ( PCI X16) Did you put another card in a PCi slot. If so, does Windows 7 see it? BTW I am a PC user.


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## Guy Rowland (May 27, 2014)

Just to update that the GT610s do indeed work fine with Waves 9 in PT. Looks like Pietro and I reached identical conclusions too.


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## Pietro (May 28, 2014)

My Mobo has 3 PCIe 3.0 slots, and I have 2 identical cards (GT210 silent), so I didn't have to do anything. If I didn't know there are two cads, I'd think it's one with 4 outputs. They just work.

I think, even if you don't have more PCIe slots, you could probably plug one into PCI (just would have to be an older one) and expect it to work properly. What's your mobo?

- Piotr


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## DynamicK (May 28, 2014)

Pretty old mobo...AsRock K10N78. 
1 x PCI Express 2.0 x16 slot 
2 x PCI Express x1 slots
3 x PCI slots
My graphics card: Nvidia 7800GT


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## Pietro (May 29, 2014)

I think, that you should be able to put a PCIe 2.0 card into that PCIe 1 slot. It would only work slightly slower. But it's worth double checking.

And I'd recommend nVidia, for the sake of keeping drivers clean.

- Piotr


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## Diffusor (May 29, 2014)

DynamicK @ Mon May 26 said:


> Diffusor @ Sun Feb 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Nvidia NVS 450. Support for 4 monitors . Works great.
> ...



You can pick up a used NVS450 off ebay in the 100 to 200 USD range if you are patient. I got both of mine for about 130 each.


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## roblord (May 30, 2014)

The Sapphire R7 250 Ultimate looks good and pretty cheap. Support for three monitors (hdmi, DL DVI and DP) and is passively cooled so silent. I see UK DAW builder Scan are using them in their systems. Takes two PCIe spaces because of the size of the cooling fins though. I presume you could run a tv on the HDMI, an Apple Cinema display or similar on the DVI and then a new DP monitor on the third.

http://www.sapphiretech.com/presentation/product/?cid=1&gid=3&sgid=1226&pid=2130&lid=1 (http://www.sapphiretech.com/presentatio ... 2130&amp;lid=1) 


Rob


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## DynamicK (Jun 11, 2014)

Eventually bought an *ATI FirePro 2450 MV* off Ebay for £35.00. Only recently withdrawn from production in Jan 2014. It came with all breakout cables (4x DVI) which matched my existing monitors. Added 2 more monitors from Ebay for another £80, and now have a quad monitor setup :mrgreen: 
I really like the AMD software that came with the driver. Able to move the mouse between any of monitors. Works great with Cubase...a real improvement in workflow.


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## Arksun (Jun 12, 2014)

I've been using ATI for some time too, but just ordered an Nvidia GTX 750 Ti card for new DAW build, really hope its ok. Bit concerned about the reports of DPC latency issues in the past.

Anyone here on this forum using an Nvidia GTX card in their daw with very low dpc latency no problems?


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 12, 2014)

I'd be careful with using 2 cards. I have 2x 7750 and 2x 5450 which I've tried to get working. With any combination Windows still has problems where it switches off my Aero theme and then I get screen tearing. It seems that if I avoid putting certain things like Youtube videos on the monitors on my second card I don't get any problems. It seems like some of you have gotten 2 cards working well. 
Right now I'll probably get an adapter and reduce my set up to 3 monitors on my 7750 so that I can use only 1 card. 
I've heard that the R7 260X are good for 4 monitors but I really don't think I need 4 monitors on my main computer and I'd rather not have any more fan noise in my studio.


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## waveheavy (Jun 16, 2014)

The NVIDIA 'Quadro' series of graphics cards might be a sure bet to solve those kind of multi-display issues. 

http://www.nvidia.com/object/quadro-advantage.html

I know Avid Pro Tools recommends the NVIDIA Quadro cards for Pro Tools 10 & 11 (because they didn't test any lower quality). 

I had problem with Waves GUI display, some plugins with a grey'd out box instead of the interface when using an older ATI card (in SONAR). (I think NVIDIA bought out ATI, so they've cornered most of the industry). When I got an NVIDIA Geforce GT 620 the Waves problem went away.


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