# My new Epic Score!



## IoannisGutevas (Apr 29, 2015)

Hello guys! 

Here is my new epic score! I hope you like it! 

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_EbdUef3L8

Soundcloud : https://soundcloud.com/ioannis-gutevas/ ... sic-animus

*REMAKE links : *

Youtube : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDS42BM3rgk

Soundcloud : https://soundcloud.com/ioannis-gutevas/animus-reforged

I hope you like it! I would love to hear your opinions!


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 29, 2015)

IoannisGutevas @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> Hello guys!
> Here is my new epic score! I hope you like it!
> 
> Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_EbdUef3L8
> ...



PM sent.


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## IoannisGutevas (Apr 29, 2015)

I dont mind hearing anything, but i would appreciate constructive criticism mate. Either way, if you have something to say, say it. Its the internet after all. You can say the worse things or the best things it matters little or much depending the listeners point of view not to what you might say. So by all means, go ahead


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 29, 2015)

IoannisGutevas @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> I dont mind hearing anything, but i would appreciate constructive criticism mate. Either way, if you have something to say, say it. Its the internet after all. You can say the worse things or the best things it matters little or much depending the listeners point of view not to what you might say. So by all means, go ahead



I will do so privately, if you want.


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## IoannisGutevas (Apr 29, 2015)

I dont mind hearing even the worse of things mate. I told you its alright. But if you do want to send me a private msg to criticise my song then by all means do so. Its all well  All comments are welcome. Constructive criticism and helpful advice though to make music even better is highly appreciated.


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## RiffWraith (Apr 29, 2015)

This is nicely done. And that's all I really have to say here.

Jay almost never comments on other people's work - he's even said this.

Jay, are you wanting doing the pm thing, b/c you think this sounds too much like something else? If so, you should voice your opinion publicly. As long as it's done in a respectful manner - something you should have no problem with - I see no issue with you saying so.

Cheers.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 29, 2015)

RiffWraith @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> This is nicely done. And that's all I really have to say here.
> 
> Jay almost never comments on other people's work - he's even said this.
> 
> ...



Not my policy, Jeff. What I had to say was better said privately anyway.


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## IoannisGutevas (Apr 29, 2015)

RiffWraith , thank you im glad you liked my piece mate


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## Daniel James (Apr 29, 2015)

Based on Jays initial comment of "You wouldnt want to hear my opinion" I imagine Jay's comments were something along the lines of 'Epic music is boring and generic blah blah not enough creativity blah why can't you be more like composer x or y' the usual kinda Jay thing where epic music is vastly inferior to his particular tastes. Seriously Jay, if you don't like Epic music why the fuck are you clicking and commenting on these posts. You already know you hold a bias against this type of music so why not just stay away. 

And Ioannis, The cue is a pretty good start although my comments would focus on the following:

The strings have a certain disjointed vibe to them, like you need to either swap to some legato patches or at least cover the gap between notes so that there isnt that sucking effect.

Secondly I would love to hear the percussion get larger as the track builds.

Lastly I would like to hear some counter melodies and harmonies, it seems like most of your melodic stuff on the strings is just playing in unison.

Hope that helps mate.

-DJ


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 29, 2015)

Daniel James @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> Based on Jays initial comment of "You wouldnt want to hear my opinion" I imagine Jay's comments were something along the lines of 'Epic music is boring and generic blah blah not enough creativity blah why can't you be more like composer x or y' the usual kinda Jay thing where epic music is vastly inferior to his particular tastes. Seriously Jay, if you don't like Epic music why the fuck are you clicking and commenting on these posts. You already know you hold a bias against this type of music so why not just stay away.
> 
> And Ioannis, The cue is a pretty good start although my comments would focus on the following:
> 
> ...



Daniel, what I write to another here on the forum privately is none of your business.

And just for the record I do not think that "epic" music HAS to be boring and generic. Two Steps From Hell does epic music that certainly is not. Hans Zimmer does music that is frequently referred to as "epic" that is not.


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## Daniel James (Apr 29, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> Daniel James @ Wed Apr 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Based on Jays initial comment of "You wouldnt want to hear my opinion" I imagine Jay's comments were something along the lines of 'Epic music is boring and generic blah blah not enough creativity blah why can't you be more like composer x or y' the usual kinda Jay thing where epic music is vastly inferior to his particular tastes. Seriously Jay, if you don't like Epic music why the f#@k are you clicking and commenting on these posts. You already know you hold a bias against this type of music so why not just stay away.
> ...



Hehe except your initial post had your trademark "Pfft you wouldn't want to hear my opinion" response, hinting towards your obvious distaste for epic music. That was public mate, I read that. So my comment is still valid. If you dislike it, why do you even bother to fucking click these posts. Is it to demonstrate your vastly superior taste, perhaps you just way to much time on your hands. Either way mate, we get it, you don't like it...just stop clicking the shit you don't like and leaving your snarky comments, it really makes you look way more pretentious than I am sure you intend to be.

-DJ


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 29, 2015)

Daniel James @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Daniel James @ Wed Apr 29 said:
> ...



You have no idea whether my comment was about his specific piece or the genre , do you?

Once again, I suggest that you mind your own business.


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## Daniel James (Apr 29, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> Daniel James @ Wed Apr 29 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 29 said:
> ...



You are right I don't know for sure but if I was a betting man I would guess I wasn't far off the mark, as your initial comment was clearly suggesting your distaste for the genre.

You really hope you get to meet me at NAMM?, lol was that some sort of threat? I should be worried about what you will say to me? get over yourself mate!

Again, just keep in mind it helps no one to go onto a members track, who is looking for advice, just to say you think the genre is crap. This is a place to help other members out, not for you to tell people why they are misguided for wanting to work in the genres they love.

-DJ


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## IoannisGutevas (Apr 29, 2015)

O-M-G! Daniel James commented on my track?! You are a source of inspiration and an idol for me mate! You have no idea how many hours i have spent watching all your tutorials and studying your music! You are right in your pointers Daniel, i wanted to make the track more "complicated" but due to some family health reasons i was working on it on and off for the past month and i was up to a point where the more i tried to make it better the less i succeded in doing so. So i felt that this is its final version and published it so i can work on something fresh and hopefully better this time! Thank you for your help , not just here but on youtube also and twitch, your job is exquisite!


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 29, 2015)

Has it occurred to you, Daniel, that if I delete something I wrote I did so for a reason and that you should perhaps respect that?

And I don't need advice from you about how to behave here.It is possible that there is a forum member whose opinion I value less, but I cannot think of one offhand.


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## RiffWraith (Apr 29, 2015)

*CATFIGHT!!!!!!!*
















































o[])


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## dcoscina (Apr 29, 2015)

Has a little asian flavor to it. More melodic than I expected and the breaks with the piano and solo cello were nice. 

Harmonically it sounds a little cliche'd but that's just me and my love of jazz and Prokofiev that makes me want to hear something more unexpected as far as modulations or even harmonic extensions. 

Pretty nicely done though.


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## Hannes_F (Apr 29, 2015)

Speaking as a forum member and not a mod I did not notice this track as particularly epic. The picture and the title said more "epic" than the music IMHO. That being said I found it quite nice, good job.

Speaking as a mod and not as a forum member ... this thread has been reported and some posts seem perhaps overly agressive/defensive but probably there is no hard breach of the forum rules yet.


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## IoannisGutevas (Apr 29, 2015)

dcoscina and Hannes_F, thank you for your comments guys. Im glad you liked it


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## Daniel James (Apr 29, 2015)

IoannisGutevas @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> O-M-G! Daniel James commented on my track?! You are a source of inspiration and an idol for me mate! You have no idea how many hours i have spent watching all your tutorials and studying your music! You are right in your pointers Daniel, i wanted to make the track more "complicated" but due to some family health reasons i was working on it on and off for the past month and i was up to a point where the more i tried to make it better the less i succeded in doing so. So i felt that this is its final version and published it so i can work on something fresh and hopefully better this time! Thank you for your help , not just here but on youtube also and twitch, your job is exquisite!



You are more than welcome mate! glad I can be of some use.  

No track is ever really finished so keep in mind all the coments you got from this and apply to your next ones. Keep doing that and eventually they sound how you want them too 

@Jay: Mate, if you post something publicly, I read it, then you edit it out later because you realize how bad it makes you look, doesn't change the fact that you said it and I read it. Trying to give the tough man speech of 'Yeah, well you wait till you see me in person' type deal is about as pathetic as it comes. Editing it out later to save face shows me more than enough about your character to not let your threats bother me too much.

@Hannes: "this thread has been reported and some posts seem perhaps overly agressive/defensive but probably there is no hard breach of the forum rules yet." ......Yet 

-DJ


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 29, 2015)

I hope that version 2 of the forum gives us the ability to not see posts from individuals. 

And since Daniel continues to reference it, what I meant was that if I see him at NAMM I will have the pleasure of telling him right to his face what I think of him, which I can't do here without violating the forum code of behavior.


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## Daniel James (Apr 29, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> I hope that version 2 of the forum gives us the ability to not see posts from individuals.
> 
> And since Daniel continues to reference it, what I meant was that if I see him at NAMM I will have the pleasure of telling him right to his face what I think of him, which I can't do here without violating the forum code of behavior.



Haha exactly what I am saying, its the whole 'Just you wait till you meet me in person' threat, its pathetic. I honestly, and this comes from the bottom of my heart, don't give a flying fuck what you think about me. 

The simple fact you think that at any point in the future I will dedicate time out of my life to stand there and listen to the self important, pretentious ramblings of a man who has nothing better to do with his time than to derail every thread he speaks in into a cesspool of his own elevated opinion and a man who threatens intense verbal abuse should our paths ever cross.....tells me that you are so wrapped in the bubble of your own internet persona that should we ever meet in person I will feel nothing but pitty for how pathetic someone who at one point lead a creative and successful career writing music for tv shows ended up filling their life with the sort of hatred and pettiness that led to you standing in front of me 'telling me what you think of me'

-DJ


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 29, 2015)

I am through with you, you are not worth my time here, which is largely spent helping others. 

Anyone know in fact if 2.0 will have a block option?


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## Hannes_F (Apr 29, 2015)

Gentlemen, if this thread is continuing to be about a personal issue between two persons this can not end well. Better stop it now. Please.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 29, 2015)

Hannes_F @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> Gentlemen, if this thread is continuing to be about a personal issue about two persons this can not end well. Better stop it now.



As I said, Hannes, I am done.


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## Daniel James (Apr 29, 2015)

Hannes_F @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> Gentlemen, if this thread is continuing to be about a personal issue between two persons this can not end well. Better stop it now. Please.



It didn't have to be Hannes it didn't have to be haha. And besides its only until Vi 2.0, when we can finally block him from our feeds forever :D

-DJ


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## michaelv (Apr 29, 2015)

Mayweather vs. Pacquiao on Saturday. This little spat looks like more fun , though. And cheaper. Cheaper being the operative word: as in cheap shot.

I've been watching the BBC World News on a regular basis. Watching, in quiet horror, the ghastly events of humankind unfold, so this puts things in perspective. Big time. Humans at their worst and best.

East West. are they still going? Time for my cheap shot . A guy, a nice guy, it seems, posts his music, eager for some friendly feedback from his fellow composers. It's a fine enough effort. It's not perfect: no art is . But he's making an effort and wants to improve. Good for him. I've heard an awful lot worse, and on this forum. So, congratulations for putting it up and leaving yourself vulnerable.The first thing he receives is a rather supercilious response from some person with a nice big, important signature. Haven't the faintest idea who this person is, BTW. Seriously. I have never heard of him. But he semi-comically puts down the poster's music, BY CLEAR INFERENCE. It was a loaded remark, sir ,so don't insult my intelligence by attempting to wriggle and squirm and use fancy phrases and euphemisms to justify it otherwise . You won't win a debate with me. Going to have to trust me on that one.

Anyway, it's all rather pathetic, and you, Mr. Lurker, are nobody in particular to do such a thing,are you? Listen. There's no-one on this forum who is a genius. I mean NO-ONE. And that includes any famous or semi famous person who contributes, too. Pretty much all the geniuses are dead, and we are inheriting their gift to us. So, we're all here, scratching about, in the musical mud, trying to help each other. Some are better than others, that's true. But it really gets my back up when people ( you know who they are ) think they're in a position to (con) descend and make trite little contributions that they think makes them look better or smarter.

BTW, don't think that I think that Mr. James got it all right, just because we're both British. Hell, for all I know he's a Chelsea supporter. Nobody's perfect, but congrats if you are a supporter, Daniel. What I liked about Mr. James was he made a big effort to help. He really took the time to make good points to improve things. 

My question to Mr. Asher is : what was so incredibly private that couldn't be said in a public forum ? Seriously, was it so security or morally sensitive that it would have shocked us, or changed the world? Umm, nnnnnnno.

Don't bother with a reply, Mr. Lurker / anybody : I'm not going to contribute further to this bitter froth. I know, I've got a big mouth. So sue me.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 29, 2015)

It WAS a loaded remark, which I thought better of, regretted, and a couple of minutes later edited it out and took it private, as is my usual policy.


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## Reegs (Apr 29, 2015)

Hi Ioannis,

Like Hannes, I too didn't feel the track was particularly epic. It felt plodding, to be honest, which is probably a combination of the tempo with slower-moving melody lines and a major emphasis on the eighth note.

Reworking the percussion would be a pretty easy way to improve the sense of motion in the piece. I think you could add a lot of energy to the track if you were to add percussion with much more syncopation and sixteenth notes on the toms. Perhaps also bump the tempo by 5-10bpm.


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## RiffWraith (Apr 29, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 30 said:


> I am done.





EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 30 said:


> It WAS a loaded remark, which I thought better of, regretted, and a couple of minutes later edited it out and took it private, as is my usual policy.



:?:


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 29, 2015)

Jeff, I meant I am done fighting with Daniel. 

If someone directly addresses me about something that I did wrong, I need to accept responsibility and respond that indeed I did but sought to rectify it.


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## michaelv (Apr 29, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> It WAS a loaded remark, which I thought better of, regretted, and a couple of minutes later edited it out and took it private, as is my usual policy.



Shame on me for breaking my vow. I KNOW it was a loaded remark, you silly man. Don't try to explain something I already realised . That's mildly insulting. 

The point is, you made several attempts, in your little debate with Mr. James, to make it sound like it wasn't. That's rather lame, sir. Look at the ensuing exchange and you should realise that you were making it sound like you had something so arcane to impart that it was not fit for public consumption, and that it wasn't demeaning to the poster. It's an untenable position, wouldn't you agree?

Frankly, I'm liking you less by the post.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 29, 2015)

michaelv @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 29 said:
> 
> 
> > It WAS a loaded remark, which I thought better of, regretted, and a couple of minutes later edited it out and took it private, as is my usual policy.
> ...



The poster sought opinions. I gave him mine and what I wrote to him is between him and me. Which is how I almost ALWAYS deal with critiques of people's music

I made a loaded remark, regretted it, and shortly thereafter edited it out. If you have never done such a thing yourself, then fine, you are a better person than I am. I never said I didn't I only said that since I edited it out, which was clear to se as the responses came AFTER I had done that, that should have been the end of it but if you want to play "gotcha", then fine, you got me. 

I am not perfect and I participate 8 gazillion conversations on the internet a week and once in a while I am not my higher self. This was one of those times. If you think less of me, I will have to accept that.


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## michaelv (Apr 29, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> michaelv @ Wed Apr 29 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 29 said:
> ...



No, I have never done such a thing. I'm a saint. Gazillion. Is that an American unit of measurement? Yes I got you. RESULT. Do I feel happy? LOL, yes, I do. Don't tempt me on acronym irony.

Oh, neither am I perfect ,but I'm learning. I'm learning, at my age, to think before I press send buttons. I'm still learning. It usually starts with an apology. Then forgiveness.

BTW, forums like this usually do not require PMs. Come on ,now, it's only music.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 29, 2015)

Good. I am happy that you are now happy.

I made a smarmy comment. But I did not murder anyone with an axe. I have stated I regretted it twice now and that is it for me.

If you look at tow or three other threads going on presently you will see that help a LOT of people here with EW stuff, which is part of my job, but also with Logic Pro, gear, etc. which is NOT part of my job. ;

So people can form whatever conclusions they wish as to how much good vs negative I contribute .I feel pretty proud of the ratio.


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## Mike Marino (Apr 29, 2015)

Ioannis: Some nice ideas in this piece for sure! Here are some things that hit me (positively and negatively):

* Intro cello: Sounds great; dig the melody. What might help it stand out even more is adding just a touch of delay to the cello to give it a little more space and effect. 

* ~1:00: As your melody shifts to the violins, violas (and maybe divisi cellos?) your crafting of note attacks, decays, and transitions are hit and miss (especially as compared to the cello in the beginning). Maybe in the future just double check those cc1 and cc11 curves as well as note durations to keep everything as smooth as possible. It's definitely a struggle point for me. I find I have to solo these lines up and play them back until I get everything just right. It's just too hard to hear it all sometimes when everything is playing back.

* Same spot ~1:00: I feel like this is a missed opportunity to use some brass here and fill out the chords you're outlining. I'm not talking loud/blurty brass, but something that helps give this some body and foundation. You can then use woodwinds to reinforce your melody, your moving line, and the chordal foundation.

* ~1:50: I think to stay in true "trailer format" you'd want another section before things quiet down. Restating your melody but using a different color (at this point, maybe somewhere in the brass) and embolden your percussion a bit more so it gives a nice build to something. Or you could shift the order of what section plays the melody. Maybe it's solo cello, then horns with a nice warm tone, then soaring violins where everything the sound is fatter and building up to a release....then piano playing through the melody the last time. You could shift keys as well for added effect. Lots of options; they could all be against what your goal was, but I'm throwing them out there regardless, lol. 

* ~1:50: Really dig the subtle inner movement going on here as well as the subtlety with the choir. Nice ebb and flow to close it out.

Yeah, nicely done! My two biggest "gripes" (if you will) is the lack of detail in your upper string programming (as compared to everything else you've got going on here) and maybe a missed opportunity to really get a fuller sound with filling out some of these chords (when your upper strings play the melody in act 2) with warm brass.

Nice job and thanks for sharing!

- Mike


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## michaelv (Apr 29, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> Good. I am happy that you are now happy.
> 
> I made a smarmy comment. But I did not murder anyone with an axe. I have stated I regretted it twice now and that is it for me.
> 
> ...



Happy? A rare commodity. Respectfully, you must appreciate the British sense of sarcasm, because yours is quite well developed. Proud? Congratulations. Not a particularly noble sentiment, I feel. I dislike self - pride, in all its forms. It makes me suspicious. Anyway, knock yourself out on that one.

I'm not wasting my life researching track records on forums , so I'll take you word for that.

This really is it.

Hasta la vista, maybe.


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## Farkle (Apr 29, 2015)

IoannisGutevas @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> Hello guys!
> Here is my new epic score! I hope you like it!
> 
> Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_EbdUef3L8
> ...



Thank you for posting! It's always an artistic moment to put your baby out there for feedback.

Here are my thoughts on the piece: please take them as one mans opinion.

The opening cello melody is nice and dark, very melodic.

The piano chords that accompany it at :30 are nice, but they're too loud/pound'y/high velocity for this type of piece, and too far back in the mix. I would lower the velocity of the piano notes, then crank the gain, with a bit of compression, to make the piano very present, intimate, etc. Think Thomas Newman really present, really soft piano. (think Soundiron's Emotional Piano).

When the string octaves come in at :49 seconds, they are in the exact same range as the piano. Take that upper string, and move it up an octave, so that it brackets the piano... you'll have clarity in the piano, and the strings will soar.

At 1:15, when the chugging strings really kick in, some big, dark, boomy percussion every 2 or 4 bars would help sell the epic. Try the "Hans" trick (He posted it)... take a timpani or bass drum, hit it softly, then gain it really high, for that "Pirates of the Carribbean" boom sound.

I hope that this helps! Again, one man's opinion. Best wishes!

Mike


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## Mike Marino (Apr 29, 2015)

> When the string octaves come in at :49 seconds, they are in the exact same range as the piano. Take that upper string, and move it up an octave, so that it brackets the piano... you'll have clarity in the piano, and the strings will soar.


Great advice!


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## Stradibaldi (Apr 29, 2015)

You could benefit from emphasizing the *bass* more. Not just the mix but also the orchestration.

BASS = IMPACT = EPIC

Compare your track to this trailer track. Listen to that steady eighth note synth bass. Also the low piano hits. Also the distorted, gritty rumpfs and wooshes.



Non Flash Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sHMCRaS3ao

In your piece, all the instruments are written medium-to-high. The piano is midrange, the cello is on D and A strings, at 0:32 the strings are all high as well. Where are the basses, where are trombones? It feels like the low frequencies are being represented solely by the percussion.

On second listen you DO have a synth bass "heartbeat" at around 0:26. It's undermixed and enters the piece too late, I think. It needs to be the backbone. 

Listen to these tracks and pay attention to how the bass propels the piece:

*"Time" and "Dream Is Collapsing" from Inception
"Lost But Won" from Rush
"Chevaliers de Sangreal" from Da Vinci Code
"One Day" from Pirates: At World's End*

Yes all Hans tracks, I wonder if Jay has put me on ignore now o[]) 

also

CLOSE = INTIMATE = EMOTIONAL

listen to the piano on "Time" and also the Planet of the Apes trailer above. Not a concert hall sound at all.

A lot of the best sounds are close-mic'd low velocity sounds turned way up. No need to have every perc note be at 127.


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## tokatila (Apr 29, 2015)

Well, I like well done epic music like TSFH, Audiomachine etc. 

Don't want to comment on technical side / trailer format, since far more experienced people have done that already and frankly I would be talking out of my ass. But for me musically what you are severely missing is a *memorable *melody / ostinato whatever.

I can't recall anything from your piece after listening to it. Which probably means I will not ever listen to it again.


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## Stephen Rees (Apr 30, 2015)

Can I ask what solo cello you are using at the beginning Ioannis? Sounds excellent.


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## Wibben (Apr 30, 2015)

This track is very enjoyable! I like the melodic ideas and the mood a lot.

The things I think you could do to push it firmly into the the more "epic realm", is some more motion during the climactic last part. Maybe double the string line with some horns, and trumpets adding accents between bars? Faster spiccato violins? Unless you really want to be as "real" as possible with the orchestra, you could pretend to record the whole string section playing short notes, then have the whole section play the melody as well. The possibilities are endless in the digital realm! :D

The percussion could use some more movement as well, adding toms and snare drums in fast patterns that help drive the rhythm of the track might help the drama as the piece moves towards the end. And remember that in the mix, these things can be in the background and will still help a lot. Everything really doesn't need to be loud 

Anyways, I'm far from a pro, so take my comments with a bucket of salt.

As a side note. I think it is sad when threads like this get hijacked and becomes a battlefield. I imagine IoannisGutevas wants opinions on the track and not gladiator battle that has nothing to do with the music, and I am sympathetic to the disappointment of seeing the thread updated a lot, but no comments or feedback to be had.

Anyways, looking forwards to hearing more music!


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## John Walker (Apr 30, 2015)

This is not what I would deem to be epic. But that is no matter.

Forgetting the actual music and notes, this may sound weird. But when I listen to what is meant to be soulful, dark music I don't really want to be aware of a beat. This music here has a definite beat that you can tap it out. I don't want that with this type of style. I don't want to be aware of a beat. You can tap a beat to just about anything, but I don't want to _even_ want to do that with this style. It makes it dour and turgid for me.


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## IoannisGutevas (Apr 30, 2015)

Woah.. LOTS of nice feedback here! I know im not perfect and far from a pro, but im doing the best i can with the time i have cause i love music, especially epic music. This forum for guys like me who live in small villages with no access to large music universities or connections with musicians who do that sort of thing (i mean with vsts and all that stuff) this is trully an oasis of knowledge. 

Reegs - Mike Marino - Farkle - Stradibaldi - Wibben - John Walker - RiffWraith - Hannes_F - Mr Daniel James i cant thank you enough guys that you put your time and effort to point out my mistakes and share your advice on how to make my music better. I have notted all of you suggestions down and will definately use it them on my next piece.

Lastly Mr Stephen Rees the cello i used in the beginning is the Tina Guo cello from Cinesamples. A little troublesome if you wanna play fast legato lines but for slow emotional stuff imho one of the best cellos out there if not the best.


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## Stephen Rees (Apr 30, 2015)

IoannisGutevas @ Thu Apr 30 said:


> Lastly Mr Stephen Rees the cello i used in the beginning is the Tina Guo cello from Cinesamples. A little troublesome if you wanna play fast legato lines but for slow emotional stuff imho one of the best cellos out there if not the best.



Thanks for the information Ioannis


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## WhiteNoiz (Apr 30, 2015)

This is a very nice piece. Very emotional. But it needs a more solid structure and development. Please don't consider it finished!! There's A LOT of stuff you can do with it (especially harmonically) and many directions it can go.

I had a go at it (examples are always better than plain words):
http://download1483.mediafire.com/l1id7 ... itTake.wav

It's just a take (on top of yours) to show you what my approach would be/was.

It's not perfectly synced as the original was quite swingy and I opted for developing my idea rather than syncing/sequencing but I think you'll get the idea. And there's still stuff I can do to it!

The main thing I noticed is that you drag your lines a bit too much. When I added my own melodies on top there were 2-3 parts [mostly between sections and towards their end: soft>to epic / epic>soft again] where I had to stop and think and modify my lines as I felt that the flow wasn't changing and dragging on. Maybe that didn't work for my particular idea though. I guess it depends if you want to make it more background-ish and sustained or snappier and with shorter statements (melodies/motifs). My initial idea wouldn't work with such long lines, so I modified it a bit. It still turned out pretty good.

I'd pay attention to this though. If you want to add strong lines on top, you should factor in the possibility that you may have to change the harmony or its duration or figure out your main melody from the beginning and build everything around it. (Lengthen to develop the theme or shorten to make a transition or short statement).

Καλή προσπάθεια και καλή ιδέα πάντως. :D


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## IoannisGutevas (Apr 30, 2015)

I was just thinking the same thing! I took all the sugestions from here and decided instead of moving to another piece to make this a whole lot better based on the amazing info you and all the other members gave me! I will work on it and hopefully make it even better. Your approach seems very interesting and makes the piece to be more "moving'', i will certainly try your ideas mate! I will upload my progress here in this post so you guys can hear it and maybe tell me if its going better or worse  Off to work then! Ευχαριστώ για την βοηθειά σου φίλε και για τα καλά σου λόγια! Θα το συνεχίσω το κομμάτι! :D


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## nikolas (Apr 30, 2015)

Καλημέρα Γιάννη και καλό μήνα, καλή πρωτομαγιά, κλπ...

Άλλος ένας Έλληνας εδώ... 

Sorry for the Greek guys!  Everything else will be in English.

My comments will concentrate on the composition and orchestration aspects of it. And I will be a bit harsh, but all for the better.

1. This is a single theme composition pretty much. The harmonic progression stays static most of the time with a lack of variation, which creates the notion of "stability" as others have said. 

2. Same goes for the rhythm and your tempo. There is very little variation between the "louder" and "softer" passages.

3. Pretty much along comes the dynamics as well. It seems as if you're not using your velocity layers at all (at least as far as the piano is concerned). Everything also feels quite quantized, to be honest.

4. The one thing that's also standing out is the lack of layers in your orchestration. There's the chords, the celli taking in after a point playing a simple ostinato and the melody.

There's no counter melody. There's no counter point. There's no patterns taking in (except for the harp towards the end). 

Perhaps this was intended, but I feel that this is creating an empty space in your sound world


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## IoannisGutevas (May 1, 2015)

Γεία σου Νικόλα, καλό μήνα και καλή πρωτομαγιά και σε εσενα!  

Considering your comments i thank you for the pointers you have given me. There are some personal reasons that made me to considered this piece finished with the events of the past month. But after all your comments and your positive feedback i understand like my friend WhiteNoiz said "Dont consider this piece finished!". So i dont, and i wont give it up. You sparked my interest in the piece to work on it more and make it trully epic (at least i hope so that it will be in the end). I noted all your comments and will try my best to make it a whole lot better. Im not any expert in the study of counterpoint or harmony but i think with all that help from all of you i can make this work . Ill be posting my progress in the forum here and i hope i wont let you down guys !


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## nikolas (May 1, 2015)

Hi Ioannis,

Thanks for taking into account our feedback.

Thing is that you could consider this work as work in progress (WIP) in your general education process... thus carrying on with the next, in which you will apply what you learned from this piece.

Alternatively you risk getting stuck in the same tune for too much time...


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## IoannisGutevas (May 1, 2015)

Hello again Nikolas,

Yes i thats why im thinking this composition as a WIP i want to try to make it a little better . I was thinking exactly what you said to move on in another piece using all this info to make the next one better. But on a 2nd thought i thought that all these comments and pointers from all these excellent musicians are essentially guidelines in making this piece a whole lot better. So i'll try to apply all these things and make this piece a lot better and as an inevitable consequence learn a lot of things on composition and how to be a better composer myself and apply them in the next composition also. Im all hyped for it  I know what you say in stucking in the same tune for too much time, but it would be a shame not to try to put all these amazing feedback into work. Im not gonna take too much time though like you pointed out in this process, just enough to feel better with the composition and wise enough from the process to move on to better things!


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## EastWest Lurker (May 1, 2015)

Here is a little tip: arguably Richard Wagner is the spiritual grandfather of all "epic" music and yet he was extremely adventurous in his harmony and counterpoint. Perhaps study him at least a little to add to your harmonic and contrapuntal crayons in your crayon box that even when you choose to compose simply, it is because it is your choice and not that you are forced to because you don't have that knowledge.

Who knows, you might even find you enjoy it


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## IoannisGutevas (May 1, 2015)

Im not that good in studying classical music cause I lack proper classical training but i'll try i can assure you to that  I've never had any classical training and i have no degree in music theory. Everything i know are from researching the internet and reading books in my free time. That said, i enjoy a lot of classical pieces and one of them is Tristan and Isolde. But enjoying it and understanding it are miles apart. Thank you for the tip though, i will give it a shot for sure


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## Jerome Vonhogen (May 2, 2015)

Hi Ioannis,

Thanks for sharing your wonderful piece, I really like it. I also like your second piece on SoundCloud called "Dreamtale". You are clearly talented, and for someone who is completely self-taught, your pieces already show a lot of potential.

I don't think you need any help from me, but for what it is worth, I would like to say just one thing. I noticed your choice of tempo in both pieces is excellent and also consistent throughout the composition. This is a rare quality which you should be aware of and appreciate. Many starting composers lack patience and discipline, partly because they are too afraid to write "boring" music. They often ruin their pieces with all kinds of stupid tempo changes and rhythmical inconsistencies that are supposed to add dramatic effect to the music, but in fact don't make any sense at all due to the absense of proper structure and form. I'm glad you don't show any sign of that bad habit.

Keep up the good work, you're doing great. 8) 

@Hannes
Could you please delete those awful messages on the first page of this thread that don't contain any helpful advise or feedback for Ioannis anyway? I don't mind seeing occasional fights appear in other threads, but this thread is about the work (and passion) of one of our members and should not be contaminated by personal animosity that has nothing to do with the OP.

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## Hannes_F (May 2, 2015)

@ Jerome
I would love to but it would stir up another epic (ha!) conversation about freedom of speech and how censored this forum is and yada yada ... thus we mods do that only in cases of clear forum rules breach.

That being said I would_ really love_ to, and thanks for asking!


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## Jerome Vonhogen (May 2, 2015)

@Hannes
I guess you're right. It's just that I'm surprised (in an unpleasant way) to see people invest so much time and effort into fighting each other, instead of just commenting on the music of a fellow forum member who kindly asks for our feedback.

I have just returned to this forum after an absence several months, and unfortunately, this thread was the first one I got to read. A rather sobering experience, to be honest, and not quite the "Chewie, we're home!"-feeling I was hoping for... :? 

By the way, aren't you and I in the same European time zone? So why are *you* still awake then, at 4:00 AM? ~<0 

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## Hannes_F (May 2, 2015)

Yes, checking some of my recordings for a client. I have found a reverb setting that really fits the style.

But that should be a different thread too, I guess ...


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## IoannisGutevas (May 4, 2015)

Hello Jerome!

Thank you for your kind words mate, Im really glad you liked my piece and Dreamtale also! Im working on the new version of the song and its going great! Im really hyped and your encouraging words make me wanna be better and work even harder. I'll be posting the new version of Animus here on soundcloud (at first) and then on youtube (slow internet here). Well anyway, thank you again mate, im going on to mix it now


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## nikolas (May 4, 2015)

Hi Jerome,

Nice to see you here (from SOL).


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## Living Fossil (May 5, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri May 01 said:


> Here is a little tip: arguably Richard Wagner is the spiritual grandfather of all "epic" music and yet he was extremely adventurous in his harmony and counterpoint.



Sorry, i totally disagree.
The "grandfathers" of Epic music are 
1st) Salon music / sheet music of the 19th century (like the famous: "Prayer of a virgin" [La prière d'une vierge] de Badarzewska)
2nd) orchestras in the time of industrialisation which played popular tunes in the parks
3rd) the typical synthie composers like Jarre, Vangelis etc
4th) the "Rock goes Classic" projects of the 80ies
5th) projects like "Rondo Veneziano"

Wagner's music is extremely complex both in harmony and counterpoint, and specially in the synergetic use of harmony&counterpoint.
It's the exact opposite of epic music.

If somebody likes "Epic music", there is nothing wrong with doing it.
In my youth everybody played in a Rock Band.
There was no need for them to sound like Beethoven's music.

Epic music is an important part of today's pop music and there is no need to
influence it from outside. Since there is still the freedom of listening to other music.


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## Hannes_F (May 5, 2015)

Living Fossil @ Tue May 05 said:


> The "grandfathers" of Epic music are
> 1st) Salon music / sheet music of the 19th century (like the famous: "Prayer of a virgin" [La prière d'une vierge] de Badarzewska)



Siegfried, if you had given 'Poème' by Zedenko Fibich as an example for (great and interesting) Salon music (1893!) it would perhaps be even easier to agree here 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfAH4dJ6gKs (Russian version)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm74zMqQbXk (Czech version)

That being said I think if we talk about the Howard Shore type of epic music then the 'grandfathers' are Wagner as Jay said, and Bruckner. Problem is that there are lots of different types of 'epic music'.


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## AlexandreSafi (May 5, 2015)

One Word: BACH...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxqWK-mQers

Or might as well go with 1 or perhaps 2 of the most God-Seeking Era in the history of the West, the Medieval & Renaissance Era, quoting great men such as "von Bingen, Tallis, Purcell or Palestrina"!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmOb5H8kL30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Cn7ZW8ts3Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dehwp_dRlYQ

But, really "Epic" is just an unfortunate label, a way to discern, summarize and even take an existential musical side, when in fact i think it more has to do with "Evolution"...
What would Wagner & Thomas Bergersen have sounded like without the people and things that made them what they represent now in the first place...

Let us forget, same goes for me, the "one man" masculine concept for a while and put even the artists we admire to the bigger picture....

I believe the inherent issue for the modern musician today is not seeing past the " old sound ", which then prevents one to look at the "compositions" instead, which inevitably contain both intuitively familiar & universal elements (melody/harmony/counterpoint, etc...), and link what was to what is...

My personal advice is go literally past the "sound", which is more of a "direct physical stimulation of the senses" than the composition itself (not a coincidence this --[the sounds]-- ((to hell with the oboe thing :evil: ))has evolved today to become more valued than the notes), the composition which encourages much more introspection, yet a much deeper pleasure ultimately...

Music, if who knows a living & breathing thing itself, is a metaphor for life, a network of diversity & associations, which means that its present always relates to its past. 

Yesterday' Epic was about Love, Today's Epic is about War --("a desperate need for Love")--, but do the ancient customs of writing about Love made the music any less "Epic"... 

*LivingFossil*, thank you so much for reminding me of "Rondò Veneziano", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKSp0jb5JrI 
My mother made me completely grow up on that! Reminds me i need to steal that a lot more... :D 

_Crossbreeding_, that's all it's always been about!
-A.s.-


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## Living Fossil (May 5, 2015)

Hannes, i have to admit i didn't know Fibich...
I like to mention "La prière..." from time to time, since it was maybe the most succesful piece of sheet music of the 19th century. Since we live in a time which is extremely success-oriented, it's important to keep in mind, that sometimes success doesn't equals substance.

i would never call Horner the composer of "epic" music, but rather a composer who has an immense knowledge of traditional music and sometimes few scruples to quote it quite literally.

To define "Epic music", i would see the following attributes as relevant:
- simple harmonic structure, similar to song structures
- usually clear functional tonality, with some additional harmonical building blocks (mediant relations, etc); clear tonal centres
- pattern oriented accompaniment, absence of counterpoint
(there are different definitions of counterpoint, i use counterpoint there where from the linear implications of melodic lines a quality emerges in addition to the harmonic context which is not inherent in the harmonic reduction)
- absence of structural complexity 
- strong focus on catchy tunes
- usually high importance of production technique

The only thing that it has in common with Wagner and Bruckner is maybe the fact that sometimes the brass section plays heroic themes. 

Often people think that it's negative, if something is "simple".
And i strongly disagree.
Simplicity is the perfect form for ideas which fit in that simple form.

I think it's rather a problem if musicians try to hide simple ideas in a complicated camouflage.
If i listen to a punkrock-song, i absolutely don't want to hear baroque imitations and jazz-rock-chords. (well, if it sounds good, of course i don't mind them...)
And i think it's a bad idea to add some alibi-counterpoint to a melody which was written without an inherent idea of that counterpoint.
If you *hear* that a composer tries to show that he is able to modulate or to vary some motifs etc. it's usually bad. I call it the "Educating-Rita-effect".
Give birth to your ideas as they are and don't try to pretend they are something else.


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## Living Fossil (May 5, 2015)

@Alexandre: you're welcome!  Rondo Veneziano was a big thing when i was in my teens. It was really cool to hear orchestral sounds with drums. (and more or less the only possiblity aside from the mentioned Rock goes Classic albums)


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## IoannisGutevas (May 5, 2015)

Here's the new version of my track guys. I tried to follow your advice and im quite happy with the result! I hope you are too! 

https://soundcloud.com/ioannis-gutevas/animus-reforged

I hope you like it!


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## Hannes_F (May 5, 2015)

Living Fossil @ Tue May 05 said:


> i would never call Horner the composer of "epic" music, but rather a composer who has an immense knowledge of traditional music and sometimes few scruples to quote it quite literally.



@Living Fossil: Was that in reply to me? I meant to write Howard Shore, not James Horner.

Well, what is Epic Music? I would say, in the broadest but also truest sense of the words, it is music that tells an Epos or is used to tell an Epos. An Epos is a drama that so eminent that it is either handed forward through generations like the Odyssee or the Mahabharata, or it _makes the impression that it could have_ the same status and relevance.

Thus I want truly epic music to put me to a different place, to a different time, to a different world. That is why epic music has strong connections (for me) to Fantasy, Science Fiction and Mysticism (three different sorts of 'other worlds'). In that way the music of 'Star Wars', 'Lord of the Rings' and 'Matrix' are as epic as 'The Planets'. 

I guess the sort of 'epic music' that you mean is the downboiled derivate of the epic music that I mean. In a way trailer music often connects the essence of my list with your list (nothing against trailer music, it is an art form for itself).

As a final thought your list is (imho) the list to avoid in order not to get stereotypical (well, for 'my' sort of epic music).

@Ioannis: Nice improvement! It has some choppy parts in the melody though and I would try to tune that violin a bit better. Also something happened with the sound of the cello. You could throw in a different key in between. Good work, keep it up!


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## Living Fossil (May 5, 2015)

@Hannes:
ooops, i read Horner instead of Shore. (is there something like a "Freudian misreading"? and if yes: why did i mix them up. i somehow like both of them) 

Thanks for your thoughts, they are really interesting and give a new sight on that topic.
(Maybe it's possible to split the thread in a "What is epic music" part?)
The examples that you use are all far more complex compositions and in the sense of my "definition" rather neoclassical than "epic music"... 
In fact, i was refering to that music that you usually will find when you enter "epic music" as keyword on youtube.



> As a final thought your list is (imho) the list to avoid in order not to get stereotypical (well, for 'my' sort of epic music).



Music is full of stereotypical models and one thing that always intrigues me is that the same stereotypical tools in the hands of masters can result in masterpieces, while in the hands of others they sound outdated.
(that goes for simple I-V-I waltzes in the same way as for classical blues songs or for Lamento basses etc etc)

Sigi ("Siegfried" is only the official version. But as a name, far to epic for someone like me)


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## EastWest Lurker (May 5, 2015)

Want to know what epic music USED to mean? Check out the score to "Spartacus."


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## Hannes_F (May 5, 2015)

@ Sigi
One more thought: What you describe as a form is actually as teachable as the sonata form, so I wouldn't wonder if it showed up in academia if it did not already.

Formwise it would be very similar to EDM and that is very interesting.

I'll try to split that part into a new thread later.


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## IoannisGutevas (May 5, 2015)

@Hannes_F im glad you liked the new version mate! Ty for your advice also! I will keep the pointers now for my next score, this i think it has come full circle  I learned a lot of things from you guys and i still do!

Btw, I havent heard a better definition of Epic music to what you said. 1000% spot on you are!


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## Stradibaldi (May 5, 2015)

MUCH improved, Ioannis o-[][]-o 

Drive and forward motion! and I love the new breakdown at 1:40.


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## IoannisGutevas (May 5, 2015)

Stradibaldi im glad you liked it mate! More will come!

*ps. I edited the links of my 1st post. You can find the links of youtube and soundcloud of the Remake of the song there also!.*


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