# How typical is this for your compositional process?



## tokatila (Jan 10, 2020)

1. Staring at the blank paper/screen
2. Getting nothing valuable out of the process/piano etc, feeling that you haven't actually learned anything and last time you got something was just a fluke
3. Finding something that you might like, but it sounds trite and boring
4. After playing for a couple (insert a unit of time here), you manage to evolve it to something passable
5. Feeling that since it's passable you must surely have lifted it from somewhere
6. Regardless you decide to develop the thing since that's the best you seem to do (alternatively quit right here)
7. If you manage to finish, and it sounds ok. It must be because your brain has accustomed to it OR alternatively you feel that you have not actually done it yourself.
8. If you manage to get a positive experience out of it you might for a moment think you have actually learned something UNTIL you get back to step 1.


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## Haakond (Jan 10, 2020)

Nice to see someone else has the same process as me. Just need to add "This sounds cool, but it sounds like something else I composed before"


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## LudovicVDP (Jan 10, 2020)

To also add:
"Listen to it the next day and realize it's crap."


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## gamma-ut (Jan 10, 2020)

It's almost certainly very typical.

This is why it's worth taking a leaf out of the novelist's book of tricks: take notes whenever you think of something or hear something that's potentially interesting that could be adapted or reworked. Instead of the blank sheet of paper you have a list of things that might fit the task at hand. Or you might feel compelled to go at that something rightaway.

I've lost count of the number of times I've had an idea the minute I've stood up and walked away from the desk - and not just with music.

Having said that, a lot of the stuff from the notes will be crap as is: it's the development process that is the important bit.


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## DANIELE (Jan 10, 2020)

LudovicVDP said:


> To also add:
> "Listen to it the next day and realize it's crap."



It happens almost all the time.



gamma-ut said:


> It's almost certainly very typical.
> 
> This is why it's worth taking a leaf out of the novelist's book of tricks: take notes whenever you think of something or hear something that's potentially interesting that could be adapted or reworked. Instead of the blank sheet of paper you have a list of things that might fit the task at hand. Or you might feel compelled to go at that something rightaway.
> 
> ...



I have (and I still modifying it) an entire workflow about this. I create playlist based on moods, sources etc...I record my ideas by voice and the categorize them. I'm planning some remakes of my oldest tracks (when I was full of ideas, time and I was not able to build them as I am now).
Recently I added an interesting thing to this workflow, since every track we write is inspired by other musicians, sounds, things for every track I want to create/remake I create a playlist containing all the things I will use to make my composition.

Last but not least I finally found a way to make an efficient and fast plan for every track I want to write. I use excel and it works pretty good for me. I don't feel lost without a goal while I write a piece.


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 10, 2020)

Procrastinate on internet (quite possibly VIC)
Double-check bank balance and/or deadline.
Enter blind panic composing mode. Shout at cat for jumping on desk.


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## GtrString (Jan 10, 2020)

Never start because of that 1-8 shi*..


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## KallumS (Jan 10, 2020)

As I understand it, that IS the process. I think that's why so many musicians struggle. I've even heard Harry Gregson Williams and Hans Zimmer say that they go through a similar thing.


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## dgburns (Jan 10, 2020)

There have been times in my career that I just got stonewalled, Yup.

But, a couple things always pulled me through. One is to try really hard to just be ‘at play’ and not force a result from yourself. I think the mindset helps to lower your apprehension at needing to come up with something of value, whatever that means. 
And it really pays off to develop a good working schedule, it really is amazing how I can just sit down and ‘write’ and be productive. It’s a muscle just like any other that needs to be trained to function.

And if you write something good, or maybe not so good, there is always tomorrow to get back at it. It’s fair to say that your writing is a snapshot of your present mindset and skillset.

And lastly, it’s just music, no one dies.


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## Paul T McGraw (Jan 10, 2020)

@tokatila you nailed it. And it's funny. Double points for that.


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## Paul T McGraw (Jan 10, 2020)

DANIELE said:


> It happens almost all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This sounds like something I have previously experienced. Oh yeah, work. It sounds like work. Nooooooo!


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 10, 2020)

To answer the OP, tbh honest I don’t experience that particular set of steps. Except number 5 over and over.

Annoyingly, if it turns out I’ve actually lifted a melody from somewhere else, I’m usually away from the studio when I realise.


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## LudovicVDP (Jan 10, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> Except number 5 over and over.
> 
> Annoyingly, if it turns out I’ve actually lifted a melody from somewhere else




Yeah. Happens a lot as well. 
Like composing something and then someone says "Oh it sounds like *insert music name*"
And you can't un-hear it anymore.


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## Ivan M. (Jan 10, 2020)

A thought about this musical inferiority feeling:

If you expect a lot of your art, you won't be able to do it. Like ,,this has to be awesome" - it doesn't. You can't force inspiration and emotion. If you do art all day, you simply can't have inspiration, you just get bored of it. Moreover, you get bored of what actually does sound good. I'm best at composition, and enjoy music the most, after a pause.

The best art is an expression, a statement of self. One should ask: do I have something to say? If not, then don't. If it's for work, then just get it done by experience, using best practices and patterns that work. 

People can get stuck in ,,must be original and impressive, or it's junk" mindset. Those are extremes, plus highly subjective. Some bash themselves with it, some bash others. No, music is ultimately not about IQ or societal status, it's about communication. Not all people communicate the same way, and not all are equally eloquent. There's always someone better to compare to and envy, but that way we ignore our own musical value.


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## DANIELE (Jan 10, 2020)

Paul T McGraw said:


> This sounds like something I have previously experienced. Oh yeah, work. It sounds like work. Nooooooo!



Well, I'm an engineer so maybe I put some of my attitude in music but I think it is the exact opposite of work. Before developing this method I was higly dispersive, now I focus more on music and fun instead of working and struggling to even start doing something.

By developing and ordered way to prepare your work your mind is lighter and ready to think about music and not about what to do next, how to develop this theme or that melody and so on.
And I must admit that staying as far as I can from classic articulation libraries helps a lot.

In a few words the objective has to be to reduce the amount of peripheral work and focus on the main one. The workflow as to be perfect and fluent.

About the excel file it is one of the most useful things to me, I built the template and now every time I want to compose it is right there, ready to be used.
About collecting material, ideas and so on is a fun thing to do and it is useful when you feel tired or when you have a very little time or when you are not inspired, in short, in every moment you can't write.


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## DANIELE (Jan 10, 2020)

Ivan M. said:


> A thought about this musical inferiority feeling:
> 
> If you expect a lot of your art, you won't be able to do it. Like ,,this has to be awesome" - it doesn't. You can't force inspiration and emotion. If you do art all day, you simply can't have inspiration, you just get bored of it. Moreover, you get bored of what actually does sound good. I'm best at composition, and enjoy music the most, after a pause.
> 
> ...



True story, if you expect to do the next best world track you will do nothing every time you try. Some time ago I felt blocked and uninspired because I wanted to do the best work ever for a little project, and this is lasted a long time. Then, one day, I said to me: "what the hell!! Do something and stop looking at the screen". So I throw myself in it and I didn't care much about the result, and then I did it, all the project and I did a pretty good work I think.
So my mind became more productive and less weighted...and I work 9-10 hours a day as my main work relegating music to the evening.


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## Maxtrixbass (Jan 10, 2020)

I used to follow that pattern pretty closely, but the problem is that #1-3 would choke off any type of flow, that is the ideas would be slow coming and the application would die on the vine. As Daniele said it pretty much kills getting anything done if you try to make everything the best you have ever done right from the get go.

Today it is more

1. Here is an idea, I'll run with it.
2. This could be really good!
3. Total crap. Why am I doing this? I have no idea how to make good music.
4. I guess there is something here I can salvage.
5. Humm, pretty good, I think I'm starting to feel good about it.
6. This is working!! How did I do it? 

1-3= every time.
4= most of the time
5=sometimes
6=rarely

I have noticed it gets harder and harder to go from 4-6, maybe because my expectations have risen (or my skill has diminished). Not only is it more rare, but it takes a lot more work.


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## Dave Connor (Jan 11, 2020)

Midi can really kill your process I’ve found. I’ve written for orchestras at the piano and then heard it on the stage and it was fine. But put an idea together in midi without going through the proper mock-up gymnastics and you will think you are a talentless hack in the wrong business. One piece I did which was sectional (one idea/texture followed by a different one etc.) had me thinking every idea was a failure. I stayed with it and wrestled with each section until it worked the way I imagined it would when I thought of it. The piece was very well received but I've never forgotten that experience which taught me not to give up if something isn’t sounding right in midi. My 2 cents.


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## Nate Johnson (Jan 11, 2020)

I've been just as frustrated writing music as the OP. Its rare I feel that nowadays though.

What works for me are three things:

Having a deadline
Having an open mind
Having FUN

DEADLINE
i write music for fun. Occasionally, I'll write music for other people. I have a full-time non-musical job and I maintain the books for my self-employed wife. I have a 6 month old baby, a dog and a couple of cats. No matter how I organize any of those things, personal (music) time is just not something i have in great abundance. My daily musical time always has a deadline. So guess what, i need to use that time wisely. If i only have 45 minutes to write music, I'll be damned if I'm going to waste it being frustrated. I've been working this way for about a year now, and I gotta say, its the best time I've ever had making music. I've never been more productive. I've probably tripled my output. AND I'M PROUD OF THE MATERIAL! Much more so than the couple of albums I put out in the beginning, that had no deadline and took 1.5 years of agonizing (truly painful) over-thought EACH to finish.

OPEN MIND
There are many ways to define music. One that really strikes a _chord_ with me: 'music is sound.' Sound has always fascinated me. I've spent a lot of time in recording studios learning about the variables of sound when mic'ing up instruments, or balancing completely different sounds together in a mix. Some time ago I discovered synthesizers and the ability to shape sound from electricity. Then, realizing all sound can be shaped and contoured to whatever you like, from whatever source you like, the entire natural world of sound opened up. Thanks to all of the advancements in sampling technology, its now insanely easy to manipulate and shape ANY sound you hear. 

I've always listened to a ton of different music. As different as classical and jazz are, I've really learned something valuable from each ethos of composition. Following rules vs. not following rules yield different results. Most importantly, MAKE YOUR OWN RULES AND BREAK THEM. When I get frustrated with what I'm doing, I stop, and try something else. I let things go. 

FUN
Its easy to get caught up in all of the pressures that get applied to creatives whilst creating their art. We look to others for inspiration and 'how do I...?' Often times what's considered 'good' or 'bad' is determined by economic success, so we're pressured to compare our work to others that have had 'success' and tear down our own when it doesn't seem to measure up. Lately it feels like if you're not spending 80% of your time boosting the number of followers and interactions you have on social media, no one will be listening. We worry too much about what others think, which leads us to go against some natural instincts. We get caught up (sometimes deeply) in the industry of software and equipment and all of the marketing manipulations that come with it, the most basic of which is the idea of 'you're not doing it right unless you're using _this_' or '_this _will make it easier'

All of this makes creating music NOT fun. For me, anyways.

For me, 'fun' is putting this musical puzzle together. The type of puzzle where you don't necessarily know what its supposed to look like. In fact, you can even steer it towards what you want it to look like. A lot of my work is improvised; 'let's try...._this_' and letting my muse take the wheel. I often am gleefully attacking my keyboard/guitar or computer mouse in a flurry of unfettered excitement, reacting to every new idea that comes along. No, not all ideas end up being great. Yes, sometimes frustration builds. But that's when I need to take a break and....

Try. Something. Else. Squeeeeeeee!


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## Bluemount Score (Jan 11, 2020)

Add "writing 20 seconds of good music just to fall in a huge creative hole right after"


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## Jerry Growl (Jan 11, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> Midi can really kill your process I’ve found. -


Personally I had the exact opposite experience in music high school. Everytime I tried to write music on paper I lost the object I was hoping to achieve, the music I was hoping to get out of my head on that paper. I never managed to pin down one my improvisations on paper without losing the essence.

One important reason I graduated I think was replacing the medium to something that I did get my head around (midi in my case). Some people (like me) only get creative with concrete elements (like lego blocks, a piano, sampled instruments, etc) others do prefer abstract elements.

Doesn't matter if it is scoring in midi, or writing sheet music, or painting on canvas... don't fight the medium. You will need to master it to a degree to make it not get in your way of creative thinking.


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## sIR dORT (Jan 11, 2020)

I could write a sermon on the struggles of steps 2-3.


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## Jerry Growl (Jan 11, 2020)

To contribute to the discussion I would say I think many fellow musicians and composers could do with some more negligence. Or at least less inward self-critical observation. Questioning yourself 'is this interesting? 'is this any good' is imo very counterproductive. There is always a reason not to like something. If you look hard you will find a stick to hit your dog. But why would you?

Also a typical mind killer is playing a couple of notes and then asking "hey isn't this from a tune i know? "
I mean, there's only so much notes you can play, so don't compare what you just started to the ocean of crap that's out there. Don't even think about existing music when you start something new.


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## Royosho (Jan 11, 2020)

Sometimes I consult a notepad of "balance" ideas to provide inspiration, starting points and contrast. Plus, at the end of a session I always write what I'm gonna work on the next day, i.e. string velocities, substitute a different instrument, resolve a section etc. Here's some examples from my "balance" notepad...

vamp vs. progression
ostinato vs. phrase
sound vs. tacet
straight vs. triplet
basic vs. complex
scale run vs. skip run
chord vs. arp
single notes vs. multiple
chromatic vs. diatonic
mono vs. stereo
normal vs. half-time
mute vs. sustain
major vs. minor
unison vs. free
staccato vs. sustain


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## Dave Connor (Jan 11, 2020)

Jerry Growl said:


> Personally I had the exact opposite experience in music high school. Everytime I tried to write music on paper I lost the object I was hoping to achieve, the music I was hoping to get out of my head on that paper.


It seems it often depends on what approach comes most natural to the composer. Someone here said that have to see it in notation to get things right. I was taught pencil and paper which puts you in a very specific thought process. Even so, my initial process of working at the piano is the same. When I write an idea down on paper, nothing tells me it’s worse than what I conceived at the piano. But if I hear it back in the correct instruments in an ensemble patch, my first impression can be that it’s terrible. Once I go through the process of splitting the parts out and making each voice behave real world with dynamic curves, correct articulation, volume etc., then it will sound fine or even just right. That first impression however is NOT a step in the old school process and is a modern phenomenon.

People should keep in mind that for centuries people would look at a finished piece of music and completely evaluate it by sight: no piano - no nothing. Indeed many composers would write/orchestrate away from the piano as did Shostakovich.


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 17, 2020)

The best thing I ever did was to create a custom size ms in Sibelius and get a big print run on good quality paper (able to handle a rubber...and lots of it!), measuring 60cmX42cm.

The height psychologically represents the audio spectrum of an orchestra for me and really helps to get away from any creative limitations imposed by a piano's (i.e. hands) physical restriction. Of course, like Dave, I'm old school and there ain't nothing wrong with that in the digital age...except...my enormous Sibelius in-tray..


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## Heledir (Jan 18, 2020)

Get a random idea when doodling around.
Start a new project even though I already have _101_ unfinished projects.
Write around _1:00_ to _1:30_ of music that first time.
Struggle to write any more music afterwards the next few times I open the project.
_102_ unfinished projects.


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 18, 2020)

dgburns said:


> There have been times in my career that I just got stonewalled, Yup.
> 
> But, a couple things always pulled me through. One is to try really hard to just be ‘at play’ and not force a result from yourself. I think the mindset helps to lower your apprehension at needing to come up with something of value, whatever that means.
> And it really pays off to develop a good working schedule, it really is amazing how I can just sit down and ‘write’ and be productive. It’s a muscle just like any other that needs to be trained to function.
> ...


And because of that SNAPSHOT, I think it's important to finish your tracks fast. The more your write and produce the better you get. Finish ANY solid idea to the end...


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## Thundercat (Jan 22, 2020)

LudovicVDP said:


> Yeah. Happens a lot as well.
> Like composing something and then someone says "Oh it sounds like *insert music name*"
> And you can't un-hear it anymore.


Sometimes it is honest to god coincidence. I wrote a “cool” broadway tune and when I played it fir my girlfriend she swore it was the same melody as some obscure pics by an even more obscure band. She played it for me but I honestly couldn’t hear the resemblance.

another time a guy delightedly pointed out how a little section from a piece was “exactly copied” from some other tune. 🙄. I know it can happen but sometimes people just delight in being little trolls. Because they can.


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## Thundercat (Jan 22, 2020)

DANIELE said:


> Well, I'm an engineer so maybe I put some of my attitude in music but I think it is the exact opposite of work. Before developing this method I was higly dispersive, now I focus more on music and fun instead of working and struggling to even start doing something.
> 
> By developing and ordered way to prepare your work your mind is lighter and ready to think about music and not about what to do next, how to develop this theme or that melody and so on.
> And I must admit that staying as far as I can from classic articulation libraries helps a lot.
> ...


Can you tell us more about your excel sheet?


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## Thundercat (Jan 22, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> Midi can really kill your process I’ve found. I’ve written for orchestras at the piano and then heard it on the stage and it was fine. But put an idea together in midi without going through the proper mock-up gymnastics and you will think you are a talentless hack in the wrong business. One piece I did which was sectional (one idea/texture followed by a different one etc.) had me thinking every idea was a failure. I stayed with it and wrestled with each section until it worked the way I imagined it would when I thought of it. The piece was very well received but I've never forgotten that experience which taught me not to give up if something isn’t sounding right in midi. My 2 cents.


Totally agree. I have a friend who loves to orchestrate. He’s a brilliant composer. But his orchestrations always sound...off somehow. I realized he just doesn’t take the time to finesse each line and dynamics, which is part of the reason the results bet sound as good as I think they should.

also answering other posts in this thread,I like to DIY music equipment. I found myself paralyzed one time and I realized it was because I was afraid to screw thongs up. I gave myself permission to totally screw it up, and it really helped me.

so give yourself permission to write the utterly worst crap ever conceived. Then get out if your own way and let your inner genius out. I promise you, each one of you is a genius.

I got a lot out of The Artist’s Way.


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## Thundercat (Jan 22, 2020)

tomorrowstops said:


> I've been just as frustrated writing music as the OP. Its rare I feel that nowadays though.
> 
> What works for me are three things:
> 
> ...


Genius.


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## Thundercat (Jan 22, 2020)

InLight-Tone said:


> And because of that SNAPSHOT, I think it's important to finish your tracks fast. The more your write and produce the better you get. Finish ANY solid idea to the end...


Then again look what happened to the Merlin series when they had to finish it in two episodes 😂


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 22, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> I got a lot out of The Artist’s Way.


Big thumbs up for the Artists Way, but even better The War of Art...


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## Thundercat (Jan 23, 2020)

InLight-Tone said:


> Big thumbs up for the Artists Way, but even better The War of Art...


Thanks for the recommend! I’ll have to check it out!


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## DANIELE (Jan 23, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> Can you tell us more about your excel sheet?



Yeah, no problem. I'll do this evening when I will be at home.

I think I posted a sample somewhere in this forum, but actually I don't remember where exactly.

It is in italian obviously but I think you will understand the basic principle behind it.


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## Thundercat (Jan 23, 2020)

DANIELE said:


> Yeah, no problem. I'll do this evening when I will be at home.
> 
> I think I posted a sample somewhere in this forum, but actually I don't remember where exactly.
> 
> It is in italian obviously but I think you will understand the basic principle behind it.


👍🙏


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## mikrokosmiko (Jan 23, 2020)

My typical process when writing:

1. This is awesome.
2. This is nice.
3. This is garbage.
4. I'm garbage.
5. Actually, this is not so bad.

(repeat from 1.)


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## Thundercat (Jan 23, 2020)

mikrokosmiko said:


> My typical process when writing:
> 
> 1. This is awesome.
> 2. This is nice.
> ...


I guess I’m arrogant or too in love with what I create, but I do #1-2, wonder if it’s any good, then go back to #1.

and I’m genuinely surprised when other people aren’t floored by every golden note that drips from the maw of the muse 😂


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## DANIELE (Jan 23, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> 👍🙏



Sorry if I take so long but I tried to translate the file for you to understand better. Here's an example I did just for showing purposes:






My goal is to have something I can fill very quickly and that it is not too much accurate (so it gives me freedom in the composing process) but something I can follow so I don't feel stuck in the middle. I have some indications about the mood, the emotion or the scene I'm dreaming about, the duration, the instruments I'd like to use and so on. Everything is pretty simple to use and I can sketch quickly an idea. I can also put some links to some voice or instruments recording for every section so in the end I have a pretty good organized scheme without falling in a robotic trap that could force your composition to be too robotic. Let's call it a little guideline. I found that this for me works really really well.

You could use it also while you are listening to a piece you love, you can sketch the structure of that piece and build a completely new track on it!! So already existing tracks gives you an indication about good structures to follow. This is especially useful when your feel very uninspired or your internal hear feels very tired.

Under the table you have a little chart that change with the "Section Dynamics" row content. This gives you a visual feedback on the track final form so you have an idea about the movement you want to achieve.

Last but not least you will see a red vertical row in the column where you will put "The End" so you can easily see where your track ends. This is useful if you have built a longer track and then you change your mind and you want to stop it before. Or maybe you want to use again a scheme you already build but you want to change the point where it ends.

The scheme is actually built of 12 sections because I saw that it is enough for a single track, even a pretty long one. I could change to my pleasure at any moment.

I traslated it in a rush so forgive me for some errors here and there.

I hope this could be useful for someone.


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## Thundercat (Jan 23, 2020)

DANIELE said:


> Sorry if I take so long but I tried to translate the file for you to understand better. Here's an example I did just for showing purposes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you! I am at work right now but I will look at it in depth later! Thx!


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## Greg (Jan 23, 2020)

All the time. I have been forcing myself lately to not leave the piano sketch process until I know I absolutely have an idea worth pursuing. So many ideas sort of kind of might work but when something is seriously special you know it immediately without any doubt and are compelled and inspired to move on to orchestration. I also try to visualize the production process before even opening logic. Try to see your midi orchestration and conceptualize how parts will flow in the daw.


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## visiblenoise (Jan 23, 2020)

Please stop spying on me


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