# Headphones (again!)



## JohnG (Oct 22, 2019)

this is a fairly whimsical article: 









The Best Headphones According to Top Record Producers


Six platinum selling music pros and the headphones they most ardently recommend——from brands like Sennheiser, Audio Technica and (surprise) Apple.




www.wsj.com





*The Best Headphones According to Top Record Producers*
*6 platinum selling music pros and the headphones they most ardently recommend——from brands like Sennheiser, Audio Technica and (surprise) Apple *


By 
Rae Witte
Oct. 22, 2019 3:09 pm ET

*Sennheiser HD600*





Bernie Grundman, mastering engineer on Michael Jackson’s ‘Thriller’ album: “General consensus among our engineers is that the Sennheiser HD600($400, sennheiser.com) is the least hyped, most accurate and pleasing to listen to, especially with an aftermarket cable and proper amp. It’s not the most expensive pair by a long shot, either. Speakers are nearly always superior to headphones for working with audio, but, the HD600 is my best bet.”

[article continues]


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## jtnyc (Oct 22, 2019)

Been using HD600's for years and love them. As a matter of fact I just ordered replacement ear pads for them today. After several years they do flatten down to pancakes. Can't wait for them to feel brand new -


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## ryans (Oct 22, 2019)

jtnyc said:


> Been using HD600's for years and love them. As a matter of fact I just ordered replacement ear pads for them today. After several years they do flatten down to pancakes. Can't wait for them to feel brand new -



Not only feel... They sound quite different with flattened pads!

Ryan


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## jtnyc (Oct 22, 2019)

ryans said:


> Not only feel... They sound quite different with flattened pads!
> 
> Ryan



I'm sure they do and it's long overdue - looking forward


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## Loïc D (Oct 22, 2019)

OMG. I was always told *those *were the best. 




Did the clerk at Toys'R'Us blatantly lied to me ?


On a more serious side, I should give them a listen. I'm using DT880 Pro, love them, but I'm always open to new experiences :D


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## bill5 (Oct 22, 2019)

Too bad we can't read the whole article. Any chance for a shameless cut/paste?


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## KallumS (Oct 23, 2019)

Where are the BH 770s on this list?

In all seriousness, I find it difficult to take anyone seriously as a producer if they say they mix on $29 Apple EarPods or Beats.


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## Tim_Wells (Oct 23, 2019)

FWIW, I'm seeing the Sennheiser HD600s for around $300 or less at most retailers (rather than the $400 noted above).


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## artomatic (Oct 23, 2019)

Anyone using Reference 4 with this or will it defeat its purpose of being "the most accurate" headphones?


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## JohnG (Oct 23, 2019)

bill5 said:


> Too bad we can't read the whole article. Any chance for a shameless cut/paste?



The other headphones mentioned: Audio Technica M50xs, Focal Clear, Beats By Dre Pro, beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro, and someone also mentioned regular Apple earbuds.

Each set is suggested by pop / contemporary songwriters, rather than score / orchestra / concert writers.


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## JohnG (Oct 23, 2019)

I still use AKG k701 headphones, though I am not trying to talk anyone into / out of his/her favourite.

A bit like speakers, you have to get accustomed to what headphones reveal and conceal, so you can compensate.


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## Joël Dollié (Oct 23, 2019)

The HD800(S) give a much better stereo image/soundstage than HD600's imo. They just sound more like speakers.


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## LudovicVDP (Oct 23, 2019)

AKG K701 here as well. Happy with them.. though I lack some comparaison.
My close to dead HD25 from Seinheiser make it sometimes interesting to compare...


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## Drundfunk (Oct 23, 2019)

I have the Audio Technica M50xs which I'm using with my mobile rig. But I have them calibrated by Sonarworks (Reference 4). Wouldn't recommend them without the calibration. The highs are way too sharp and it's unpleasant for the ear to listen to any type of music really. With the calibration it's alright and they sound flat enough. I bought them because they are easy to transport etc., but the sound itself is really bad. They are also not really comfortable when being used a whole day. Obviously that's just my opinion tho.


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## Studio E (Oct 23, 2019)

I lost a Focal twin earlier this year in the middle of a couple projects, so in a panic, I bought some DT-990s. They are pretty darn nice. Totally not hyped and less mid-forward than my monitors. The sound was great to work with and I used them for hours at a time without them bothering me. In fact, after a while, I'd forget that I was even wearing headphones.


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## tmhuud (Oct 23, 2019)

jtnyc said:


> Been using HD600's for years and love them. As a matter of fact I just ordered replacement ear pads for them today. After several years they do flatten down to pancakes. Can't wait for them to feel brand new -



lol. Just ordered ear replacements myself. Love my 600’s.


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## SupremeFist (Oct 23, 2019)

It totally makes sense to check a mix/master on nasty Apple earpods since so many people will listen to the final product that way, but you'd have to be insane to use them exclusively. (AKG 701 here too: reassuringly uncomplimentary.)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 23, 2019)

The proper cable is essential?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 23, 2019)

(I'm not a poo-poo-on-great-cable kinda guy, but that's a heck of a statement.)


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## nas (Oct 25, 2019)

I have a set of the HD 600's and they are really nice. I actually bought them from Sonarworks and they did a custom profile where they tuned them to a ruler flat response, but I actually found I like the sound and frequency response of these off the shelf so much that I don't use the Sonarworks tuning. They do need a good amp to drive them. I've also paired them with the Chord Mojo converter/headphone amp and it's a great match. MIds and highs are very articulate without being harsh and the transients come through nicely. I would only comment that the bass isn't super deep or a little on the light side , but if its in the mix you'll hear them. It's actually not such a bd thing as the bass doesn't overwhelm the mix or get too boomy and you can hear the upper frequencies more clearly as a result.


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## erikradbo (Oct 28, 2019)

I go with HD650 and sonarworks reference general hd650-profile. Tbh that profile wants to change the HD650 quite a lot and makes the sound a lot less pleasant, and much less pleasant than my calibrated monitors. Makes me think the hd650 aren't that good for mixing as i used to think. Genereal consensus seems to be that hd600 are much flatter.


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## Tim_Wells (Oct 28, 2019)

I notice that the HD650s seems to be a favorite of Sonarworks. They give it one of their highest ratings. 

For me personally, I'm tempted to go with the HD650s because it has a stronger bass response. I know that headphones are not the ideal way to monitor bass. But that's the area where my listening environment is the weakest and I'm hoping it will give another means to check the bass.


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## jtnyc (Oct 28, 2019)

Tim_Wells said:


> For me personally, I'm tempted to go with the HD650s because it has a stronger bass response. I know that headphones are not the ideal way to monitor bass. But that's the area where my listening environment is the weakest and I'm hoping it will give another means to check the bass.



I would still suggest you get the 600's over the 650's for accurate monitoring of bass or anything else. The 650's will give you more bass, but I don't think you want to hear more of something thats not necessarily there. In such a situation you could very well end up with mixes that translate light in the bass. If you get to know them as with any monitor I'm sure you'll be fine, but I would always opt for the neutral option


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## SupremeFist (Oct 28, 2019)

Tim_Wells said:


> I notice that the HD650s seems to be a favorite of Sonarworks. They give it one of their highest ratings.
> 
> For me personally, I'm tempted to go with the HD650s because it has a stronger bass response. I know that headphones are not the ideal way to monitor bass. But that's the area where my listening environment is the weakest and I'm hoping it will give another means to check the bass.


I've found the Bassroom plugin by Mastering the Mix incredibly useful in this respect.


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## Tim_Wells (Oct 28, 2019)

SupremeFist said:


> I've found the Bassroom plugin by Mastering the Mix incredibly useful in this respect.


Thx! I'm not familiar and will check it out!


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## Joël Dollié (Oct 28, 2019)

No headphone will really give you an accurate physical representation of bass, even if it technically has more bass. I'd recommend getting the flatter HD600's just to have a clearer more accurate sound and get some secondary monitors and ozone Tonal Balance Control to check the bass. 

There's a physical element in bass that helps you properly balance it which you don't get on headphones, but only speakers and truly give you that. That's why I'd save money and get the more accurate pair and just use speakers alongside it.


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## creativeforge (Nov 9, 2019)

bill5 said:


> Too bad we can't read the whole article. Any chance for a shameless cut/paste?



Here goes: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-best-headphones-according-to-top-record-producers-11571771353


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## edhamilton (Nov 9, 2019)

I own several pairs of 600's. 
Many others have come and gone. 600s remain.
On my head right now in fact.


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## creativeforge (Nov 9, 2019)

edhamilton said:


> I own several pairs of 600's.
> Many others have come and gone. 600s remain.
> On my head right now in fact.



I used to love the ATH-M40fs for clarity. After working a few times with the Avantone Mixphones, I found that the AT sound like a vintage phone compared to them. Even after a few weeks only using the AT, they still sound too harsh. So I'm now looking. I'm using a Saffire Pro 24 DSP, but as far as I know the DSP is not engaged, so that can't be the cause.

How comfy are the 600? There's also the AKG 700 series mentioned above, I need something that will not hurt my ears after an hour because often that's when I hit a stride in creativity, or I use them to listen to music while working on translation work (YouTube - I know, but where can I find oldies by Curved Air, Strawbs, Chris de Burgh, etc)...

Thanks!


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## dflood (Nov 9, 2019)

KallumS said:


> Where are the BH 770s on this list?
> 
> In all seriousness, I find it difficult to take anyone seriously as a producer if they say they mix on $29 Apple EarPods or Beats.


Agreed, but it makes sense to at least reference these and make sure your mix sounds as good as it can on them. Like it or not, that’s what people are listening with.


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## jononotbono (Nov 9, 2019)

creativeforge said:


> Here goes: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-best-headphones-according-to-top-record-producers-11571771353



I didn’t wanna say this in this thread as I was raving about headphones I bought in another thread and didn’t want to come across as some kind of fanboy and annoy people and the price point is sure to squeeze the Piggy Jar (well it did for me) but I just read this list...







I bought a pair of Audeze LCD-X headphones about 5 weeks ago. Honestly, forget all this other dogs brown and try them out John. In this list, Alex Tumay even says he just uses the M50s for casual listening and not critical listening. So many people go on and on about the M50s (and all the Beyer 770, 880, and 990 - I also own both M50 and 990 Pro) and how great they are but the truth is, in comparison the LCD-X, they are disgraceful. I guess many people, who have not tried the LCD-X, will disagree with me though 😂

Alex Tumay also mentions he uses in ears by 64Audio and a Mix engineer I work with swears by both Audeze And 64Audio (he also uses these in ears when live mixing on tour with full orchestras). I think a pair of their in Ears with 12 drivers cost nearly $2k and they fly out to your location to personally measure and get them fitted for you.

Hilarious that Dre Beats are in the list too! Although they make for ok gym headphones 😂


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## creativeforge (Nov 9, 2019)

I just checked the pricing for these two. And that's in Canadian dollars. Luckily the music store here price matches. That's pretty affordable for getting such great ratings from professionals. 

Sennheiser HD600 - $328


And for the D990 (250 ohms) - $230 (80 ohms = $234


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## ryans (Nov 9, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> I bought a pair of Audeze LCD-X headphones about 5 weeks ago



I have a pair as well, love em' ...but... if I had to pick just one pair of headphones out of my embarrassingly large arsenal, it would still be the trusty HD600.


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## creativeforge (Nov 9, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> Hilarious that Dre Beats are in the list too! Although they make for ok gym headphones 😂



I was baffled... BAH FULLED. 

As for the in-ear, Uzowuru says he does _"everything"_ with them. Maybe he sends his mixes out to be mastered elsewhere, then.


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## jononotbono (Nov 9, 2019)

ryans said:


> I have a pair as well, love em' ...but... if I had to pick just one pair of headphones out of my embarrassingly large arsenal, it would still be the trusty HD600.



That's surprising to me but we like what we like huh! The HD800s are good as well.


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## jononotbono (Nov 9, 2019)

creativeforge said:


> I was baffled... BAH FULLED.
> 
> As for the in-ear, Uzowuru says he does _"everything"_ with them. Maybe he sends his mixes out to be mastered elsewhere, then.



A mix engineer I work with was literally telling me about these in-ears from 64Audio about 3 days ago. Said they are incredible. Apparently, once they go in the ear, you literally can hear nothing from the outside world as the isolation is so good. He also uses the Closed back variants of the LCD-X but says the Open Backs sound better. He just needs closed backs for when's not in the studio and noise is an issue.

Anyway, lets all be honest. We should all just be working from the iPad speaker and reference checking via Apple Airpods and You Tube mixes. It's what every cheap slag consumes music on anyway. 😂


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## ryans (Nov 9, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> That's surprising to me but we like what we like huh! The HD800s are good as well.



I should clarify.. the LCD-X and the HD800s are superior to the HD600 in almost every way.. (they should be considering the price)

In terms of detail retrieval, soundstage, imaging.. the HD600 can't compare to either the LCD-X or HD800s. But what the HD600 have is a natural, unaltered, musical sound. Smooth high frequencies that never hurt, never fatigue after hours of listening. They're light and comfy. Mixes translate better than any other headphone (for me...) 

So.. if i'm going to choose just one pair, for everything.. it would be the HD600


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## creativeforge (Nov 9, 2019)

So then...


ryans said:


> I should clarify.. the LCD-X and 800s are superior in almost every way.. (they should be considering the price)
> 
> In terms of detail retrieval, soundstage, imaging.. the HD600 isn't even close. But what they have is a natural, unaltered, musical sound. Smooth high frequencies that never hurt, never fatigue after hours of listening. They're light and comfy. Mixes translate better than any other headphone (for me...) So.. if i'm going to choose just one pair, for everything.. it would be them.



Not clear if you're saying the HD600 or HD800 _"just one pair for everything, it would be them."_


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## creativeforge (Nov 9, 2019)

For those using the HD-600 or DT-990, are you using a headphone amp with them, or right from your soundcard?


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## ryans (Nov 9, 2019)

creativeforge said:


> Not clear if you're saying the HD600 or HD800 _"just one pair for everything, it would be them."_



Sorry for the confusion.. I edited the post to be more clear.



creativeforge said:


> For those using the HD-600 or DT-990, are you using a headphone amp with them, or right from your soundcard?



I'm using a headphone amp here..


Ryan


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## creativeforge (Nov 9, 2019)

ryans said:


> Sorry for the confusion.. I edited the post to be more clear.
> I'm using a headphone amp here..
> Ryan



Thank you Ryan, so I'll have to consider this. Are you using the same manufacturer's amp or something like the Fiio?


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## ryans (Nov 9, 2019)

creativeforge said:


> Thank you Ryan, so I'll have to consider this. Are you using the same manufacturer's amp or something like the Fiio?



I have a few different amps (can't have just one :D) but mostly I use a Schiit Magni


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## brenneisen (Nov 9, 2019)

ryans said:


> So.. if i'm going to choose just one pair, for everything.. it would be the HD600



nah, I'm with Jono on this one; his friend has $19k cables so he probably knows better than us


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## jononotbono (Nov 9, 2019)

brenneisen said:


> nah, I'm with Jono on this one; his friend has $19k cables so he probably knows better than us



That just made me nearly spit my Budweiser out! It’s what Americans drink haha. Thank you.


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## D Halgren (Nov 9, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> That just made me nearly spit my Budweiser out! It’s what Americans drink haha. Thank you.


I'm American, and I grew up in St Louis, and Budweiser is awful :dodgy:


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## jononotbono (Nov 9, 2019)

D Halgren said:


> I'm American, and I grew up in St Louis, and Budweiser is awful :dodgy:



I think HZ would likely say the word "Dodgy" rather than awful.  It's rather disgusting. Especially from a tin can like I'm currently swigging from. I've just learned what a "Growler" is as I couldn't believe I saw a bar (with beer pumps) in a Petrol station the other day! Mental country! Actually had today off so I thought I'd have a Rock n Roll Saturday night by having a beer and trying to make a video on Berlin Strings but I keep getting drawn to the magnet that is VI-C.

Yeah, that's a very good point about using a headphone amp vs from your interface. I'm currently plugged into the headphone amp of the Apollo Twin X and its good. Acceptable. Certainly for my little bedroom set up until I'm established with a studio of my own out in the states.

This is something in a studio I work at. Way beyond my Piggy Jar I'm afraid but it's killer!


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## D Halgren (Nov 9, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> I think HZ would likely say the word "Dodgy" rather than awful.  It's rather disgusting. Especially from a tin can like I'm currently swigging from. I've just learned what a "Growler" is as I couldn't believe I saw a bar (with beer pumps) in a Petrol station the other day! Mental country! Actually had today off so I thought I'd have a Rock n Roll Saturday night by having a beer and trying to make a video on Berlin Strings but I keep getting drawn to the magnet that is VI-C.
> 
> Yeah, that's a very good point about using a headphone amp vs from your interface. I'm currently plugged into the headphone amp of the Apollo Twin X and its good. Acceptable. Certainly for my little bedroom set up until I'm established with a studio of my own out in the states.
> 
> This is something in a studio I work at. Way beyond my Piggy Jar I'm afraid but it's killer!


Awfully dodgy!!!

I'm using the Neve RNHP headphone amp. Pretty affordable at $500.


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## Dex (Nov 10, 2019)

creativeforge said:


> How comfy are the 600? I need something that will not hurt my ears after an hour because often that's when I hit a stride in creativity, or I use them to listen to music while working on translation work



For me they are somewhat uncomfortable due to the clamping force, which is necessary to achieve proper low end response. Most of the time it doesn’t really bother me, but if I already have a headache from a long day of work and I put them on, they exacerbate the headache pretty badly.

They’re still the best headphones I’ve ever tried.


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## creativeforge (Nov 10, 2019)

Dex said:


> For me they are somewhat uncomfortable due to the clamping force, which is necessary to achieve proper low end response. Most of the time it doesn’t really bother me, but if I already have a headache from a long day of work and I put them on, they exacerbate the headache pretty badly.
> 
> They’re still the best headphones I’ve ever tried.



The Avantone Mixphones are like that too, so I can't work for a very long time with them. Mostly for mixing stuff, then it's back to the ATH40mfs, which creates another problem due to the very noticeable drop in sound quality. Some people say they can work for hours with the 600s, though. 

Wonder if those who have or are using the Beyer DT990 could chime in about how the "clamping force." 

The music store here doesn't let you return headphones anymore. "Health concerns," they say. Otherwise I'd try a bunch. Plus they don't have stock for any headphones over $300, so any comment is appreciated!


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## Soundlex (Nov 10, 2019)

Joël Dollié said:


> No headphone will really give you an accurate physical representation of bass, even if it technically has more bass. I'd recommend getting the flatter HD600's just to have a clearer more accurate sound and get some secondary monitors and ozone Tonal Balance Control to check the bass.
> 
> There's a physical element in bass that helps you properly balance it which you don't get on headphones, but only speakers and truly give you that. That's why I'd save money and get the more accurate pair and just use speakers alongside it.



Curious to know which speakers you have Joël. Or do you solely work on headphones? Also, have you compared the 800 to other headphones popular options like the LCD-X or the Clear?


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## Joël Dollié (Nov 10, 2019)

Soundlex said:


> Curious to know which speakers you have Joël. Or do you solely work on headphones? Also, have you compared the 800 to other headphones popular options like the LCD-X or the Clear?



I use some LSR308's just to check the mix (especially for the low end). I mostly work with HD800's though.

I haven't compared the HD800's to other options (not easy to find a place to try them out), but from the data i've seen and various reviews, the Clear don't seem to have as accurate of a frequency response, especially in the mid range. The LCDX seem good, but when it comes to imaging, the HD800 seems to be king, as it's the one thing all reviews pretty much admit is insane (It's really important for panning and tweaking the stereo field). I'm sure any of these top headphones would be great for mixing, but the sheer separation/detail of the HD800 that everybody talks about probably could give you a bit of an edge when it comes to hearing details.

I've also heard from various pros that HD800's sound the closest to their expensive monitor setups. I'd love to try other top of the line headphones but I don't think I'd want to trade the soundstage for anything. It just helps so much with panning and tweaking the stereo field. 

I think it's important to mention that Sennheiser now sells the HD800S, black version, which fixes that one treble peak everybody was talking about. I personally have the silver ones but the treble peak doesn't bother me. It's not like you can hear a peak but it does make the overall presentation quite bright and punchy feeling overall from 5 to 10k. Maybe not great for someone who can't handle treble but it's also not DT990 levels of pain. I tried the 600 which are duller sounding but they have a ton less separation/imaging and "bigness". It's a lot harder to hear detail on these..


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## SergeD (Nov 10, 2019)

Although I am not a specialist in that matter, I would like to relate my experience with the dt990 Premium version.

The first week, I regretted this purchase as the high-pitched sounds scratched my ears. I can not say if the burn-in effect played a role or if it's me who became deaf, but after a couple of weeks, listening has greatly improved and I must say that now I love these headphones.


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## Soundlex (Nov 10, 2019)

Joël Dollié said:


> I've also heard from various pros that HD800's sound the closest to their expensive monitor setups.


I also heard that quite a lot about the LCD-X but like you said, they all would be great options.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
One last question, do you happen to use a crossfeed plugin with these? Like Can opener or the waves Abbey road studio 3?
I was just reading about some top engineers selling their 30K speakers and room treatment as they now work faster with better results using the LCD-X, the Waves plugin and a sub-pack!


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## Joël Dollié (Nov 10, 2019)

SergeD said:


> Although I am not a specialist in that matter, I would like to relate my experience with the dt990 Premium version.
> 
> The first week, I regretted this purchase as the high-pitched sounds scratched my ears. I can not say if the burn-in effect played a role or if it's me who became deaf, but after a couple of weeks, listening has greatly improved and I must say that now I love these headphones.



I had the same feeling switching from HD 598's to HD800's. The brain just gets used to it.


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## Joël Dollié (Nov 10, 2019)

Soundlex said:


> I also heard that quite a lot about the LCD-X but like you said, they all would be great options.
> Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
> One last question, do you happen to use a crossfeed plugin with these? Like Can opener or the waves Abbey road studio 3?
> I was just reading about some top engineers selling their 30K speakers and room treatment as they now work faster with better results using the LCD-X, the Waves plugin and a sub-pack!



I've tried some of these plugins but in the end I don't use them. They just mess with the sound too much.. I really wanna try a sub pack at some point though!


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## SupremeFist (Nov 10, 2019)

Anyone know whether the LCD1 is supposed to be any good as an alternative to the Senn/BDs in that price range?


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## ryans (Nov 11, 2019)

Joël Dollié said:


> The LCDX seem good, but when it comes to imaging, the HD800 seems to be king



Having directly compared both headphones I can confirm this (although I'm using the 800S). Extremely wide soundstage on the HD800. Almost too wide... everything sounds so big... but you can hear every microscopic detail..


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## Joël Dollié (Nov 11, 2019)

ryans said:


> Having directly compared both headphones I can confirm this (although I'm using the 800S). Extremely wide soundstage on the HD800. Almost too wide... everything sounds so big... but you can hear every microscopic detail..



Interesting! Sounds good, well then I probably wouldn't like to switch to the LCDX as I need every bit of that detail.


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## thevisi0nary (Nov 11, 2019)

Been using the hd600's for a few years. Here is my 2 cents.

Pros:
Gorgeous clear sound, without being hyped or over flattering. 
Very Comfortable.
Not hard to drive (despite what you may have heard).

Cons:
The lack of bass. Can make translation a little difficult, and would be the only reason I would look to upgrade.
Sense of space like reverb does not translate incredibly well, but I think this is true for most headphones.


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## ryans (Nov 11, 2019)

thevisi0nary said:


> Not hard to drive (despite what you may have heard)



Ok yes.. HD600 are not crazy hard to drive but it's not the most efficient headphone.. so they do need a reasonably good amp. I can plug them into my phone and get.. music, technically.... but it's weak.. thin.. and kinda gross sounding.

You can get pretty good bass out of the HD600 with a good amp... and the great thing about this headphone is the better your amp gets the better this headphone sounds.


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## thevisi0nary (Nov 11, 2019)

ryans said:


> Ok yes.. HD600 are not crazy hard to drive but it's not the most efficient headphone.. so they do need a reasonably good amp. I can plug them into my phone and get.. music, technically.... but it's weak.. thin.. and kinda gross sounding.
> 
> You can get pretty good bass out of the HD600 with a good amp... and the great thing about this headphone is the better your amp gets the better this headphone sounds.



I would certainly love to try them with a juicy amp, but I tend to lean on the side of amps not making a large difference sonically. Most of the time I am driving them with an RME baby face and it does the job. The bass that is present is very clear and unhyped, but it just doesn't extend far enough for deep bass duties. 

I have also used them simply connected to an iphone, and they do not sound thin at all.


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## Joël Dollié (Nov 11, 2019)

thevisi0nary said:


> I would certainly love to try them with a juicy amp, but I tend to lean on the side of amps not making a large difference sonically. Most of the time I am driving them with an RME baby face and it does the job. The bass that is present is very clear and unhyped, but it just doesn't extend far enough for deep bass duties.
> 
> I have also used them simply connected to an iphone, and they do not sound thin at all.



I have to agree with that. I haven't seen any convincing data that amps (solid state) make a real difference in frequency response, as long as their output impedance isn't crazy high. It's the kind of thing that audiophiles talk about a lot but there's just no true data on that. Tube amps are a little bit of another story but it's also just different, not better).

Most solid state amps will be rated at -+0.1db 20hz-20khz. They're made to be flat and low distortion so they basically sound the same, and if there's a difference it's subliminal. As far as I know the only thing that can affect how an amp/headphone combo sounds is if the amp's output impedance is way too high for the headphone's ohm rating.


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## ryans (Nov 11, 2019)

Joël Dollié said:


> I haven't seen any convincing data that amps (solid state) make a real difference in frequency response



I 100% agree on that... 

I'm not really an audiophile nut (honest) but I've tried the HD600 on all kinds of boutique tube amps and some sound REALLY good.. but also really different, coloured... I would never, never mix on a tube amp. 

I suppose it could be all in my head, but I am pretty sure my phone cannot power the HD600... it just does not sound good... maybe I need an iphone!


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## brenneisen (Nov 11, 2019)

ryans said:


> I suppose it could be all in my head,



*pun*


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## creativeforge (Nov 13, 2019)

Been looking at the HD600, and the HD800, then the DT990 and the DT770. It is clear then Sennheiser here are both OPEN back, while the Beyerdynamic DT 770 is the only one with a closed back.

Do you find that the closed back fatigue the ears faster? But what about accuracy too, most transparent?

Black Friday pricing could be motivating...  

Thanks!


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## creativeforge (Jan 18, 2020)

UPDATE: I picked up my new HD600 yesterday. It's like have excellent wipers in the midst of a rainstorm! I'm enjoying some Dave Weckl tracks, Vangelis, Charlie Watts, Dire Straits, and I will keep on listening. They are fairly comfortable (much kinder to my head than the Mixphones) and the sound is much more "real" across the board. 

I followed some of the recommendations here for live sound, and added a few familiar ones I have been using enjoying the years. 

https://mxu.rocks/soundcheck/

Then I'll have to work on my own music with them, which could prove depressing if the work done has been badly referenced, but so far I'm really pleased and it can only help improve. The ATH-M40_fs _are history. I can't believe how long I worked with these, now they just sound like a bullhorn to me. 

*The HD 600 deserve the high praise they have accumulated over the years! *

Thank you for all the recommendations!

Andre


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## CT (Jan 18, 2020)

creativeforge said:


> UPDATE: I picked up my new HD600 yesterday. It's like have excellent wipers in the midst of a rainstorm! I'm enjoying some Dave Weckl tracks, Vangelis, Charlie Watts, Dire Straits, and I will keep on listening. They are fairly comfortable (much kinder to my head than the Mixphones) and the sound is much more "real" across the board.
> 
> I followed some of the recommendations here for live sound, and added a few familiar ones I have been using enjoying the years.
> 
> ...



Hi Andre, are you using these with an amp?


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## creativeforge (Jan 18, 2020)

miket said:


> Hi Andre, are you using these with an amp?



Not yet, not sure I'll need one? I'm direct out of a Saffire PRO 24 DSP firewire sound card. I'll work a while this way and see if I miss something.


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## cloudbuster (Jan 19, 2020)

I still have a box of AKGs, with the most recent being the K712 Pro BUT when it comes to _enjoying_ music I vastly prefer IEMs (Shure, Dunu, IMR, chi-fi) these days - YMMV. For most (95%) of my playing - mixing - mastering I still use my monitors though and can't see myself switching to phones for that sort of thing anytime soon, no matter how 'good' they are.


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## muk (Jan 19, 2020)

What are the recommendations for neutral, analytica, closed-back headphones these days? There are some situations when I need closed headphones with good isolation.

ATH M50x seem to be good in the lower price bracket. The Oppo PM-3 looks interesting. Sadly it is discontinued. At the higher end, the Mrspeaker Aeon Flow closed might be an option. Any other models that are good?


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## SupremeFist (Jan 19, 2020)

muk said:


> What are the recommendations for neutral, analytica, closed-back headphones these days? There are some situations when I need closed headphones with good isolation.
> 
> ATH M50x seem to be good in the lower price bracket. The Oppo PM-3 looks interesting. Sadly it is discontinued. At the higher end, the Mrspeaker Aeon Flow closed might be an option. Any other models that are good?


Based on how good the Ollo S4 are, I would certainly take a look at their closed-back S4R.


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## Scoremixer (Jan 19, 2020)

muk said:


> What are the recommendations for neutral, analytica, closed-back headphones these days? There are some situations when I need closed headphones with good isolation.
> 
> ATH M50x seem to be good in the lower price bracket. The Oppo PM-3 looks interesting. Sadly it is discontinued. At the higher end, the Mrspeaker Aeon Flow closed might be an option. Any other models that are good?



I've got the Aeon Flow closed and love them. They're definitely analytical and non-flattering, especially in the bass, but they're such a huge step up from the likes of the Audio Technicas. 

I went on a huge headphone research spree last year to try a find something that fit the closed-back, analytical bill and in the end came to the conclusion that the price hike for something high-end was well worth it. Specifically tried the Mr Speakers vs price equivalents from Audeze and Focal, and over an afternoon of listening concluded they were the most natural and balanced of the three. The only headphone I would have taken instead is the HD800 closed back, but they're many times the price... 

The other option you could try are the neumann cans - I disliked the sound (warm and bassy to my ears) but that's an opinion well at odds with most of the reviews I've seen. I think headphones are an even more personal choice than monitors, so I'd suggest trying as many in person as you can possibly manage.


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## muk (Jan 19, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Based on how good the Ollo S4 are, I would certainly take a look at their closed-back S4R.



Thanks, never heard of them. Going to check them out.

Thanks for sharing your experiences @Scoremixer! I'm compiling a list of the models I want to hear. The Aeon Flow is definitely on that list. The PM-3 is the backup plan. I could buy second hand only, making it difficult to listen first.


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## Patrick.K (Jan 19, 2020)

Try the AKG K 702, it is a reference too, and since it is not completely closed, it is very comfortable.
Its precision is excellent, it is one of the best headsets I have used.


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## muk (Jan 19, 2020)

The K701 is what I use as my open back headphones. Isolation is not good enough on the K702 for what I need. Else it would have been on my list.


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## JT (Jan 19, 2020)

As Scoremixer said above, look into the Neumann's. Sonarworks did a glowing review of them.
https://www.sonarworks.com/blog/reviews/neumann-ndh20-headphone-review/#pros

I haven't tried them, but I'm tempted.


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## muk (Jan 19, 2020)

Thanks. I put them on my list. But mainly for the reputation Neumann has for their speakers. The frequency response of the NH 20 doesn't look pretty.


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## bill5 (Jan 19, 2020)

muk said:


> What are the recommendations for neutral, analytica, closed-back headphones these days? There are some situations when I need closed headphones with good isolation.
> 
> ATH M50x seem to be good in the lower price bracket. The Oppo PM-3 looks interesting. Sadly it is discontinued. At the higher end, the Mrspeaker Aeon Flow closed might be an option. Any other models that are good?


AT's tend to emphasize the low end somewhat so IMO not really neutral.


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## ryans (Jan 19, 2020)

bill5 said:


> AT's tend to emphasize the low end somewhat so IMO not really neutral.



Yeah.. if you're going to go AT, I much prefer the m40x to the m50x..


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## Scoremixer (Jan 19, 2020)

muk said:


> Thanks. I put them on my list. But mainly for the reputation Neumann has for their speakers. The frequency response of the NH 20 doesn't look pretty.



Yeah I was surprised by how they sounded - very much not like the analytical nature of the speakers to my ears. But YMMV. 

FYI, I found Amazon (in the UK at least) was good about letting you return headphones, whereas most dedicated online music vendors explicitly said no returns.


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## bill5 (Jan 19, 2020)

ryans said:


> Yeah.. if you're going to go AT, I much prefer the m40x to the m50x..


Frankly I don't hear any diff between the AT 20,30,40, and 50.


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## ryans (Jan 19, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Frankly I don't hear any diff between the AT 20,30,40, and 50



Sure it's subtle but to my ears the m40x has a more natural bass..


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## muk (Jan 19, 2020)

Thanks everybody. I'm going to visit a few shops in my city and then will decide which I like best.


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## Ivan M. (Jan 21, 2020)

ryans said:


> Yeah.. if you're going to go AT, I much prefer the m40x to the m50x..



40x have a boxy sound and his, 50x are incomparably better


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## bill5 (Jan 21, 2020)

Rest my case lol


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## ryans (Jan 23, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Rest my case lol



Indeed  

Obviously personal taste has to be factored in. You have to make your own decision in the end.. neutrality really doesn't exist...

I will maintain though, in my humble opinion, as someone who has listened to an embarrassingly large number of headphones... if you are planning on mixing/analyzing on the m50x, you're gonna have a bad time...

Ryan


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## bill5 (Jan 23, 2020)

I would say that about the 40X too.  Though it could depend on what you're mixing too or how you do your mixes. etc


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## creativeforge (Feb 19, 2020)

OK, so, an amp may be needed, what would be recommended around $100? It would have to be an amp that also increases the levels. Asking for a friend...


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## Nate Johnson (Feb 27, 2020)

creativeforge said:


> OK, so, an amp may be needed, what would be recommended around $100? It would have to be an amp that also increases the levels. Asking for a friend...



This is what I use with my K702’s (when plugged directly into my laptop; don’t need it when I’m using my interface)









Objective2 Headphone Amplifier _ Shop JDS LABS


Objective2 is an opensource amplifier designed by brilliant engineer NwAvGuy, with emphasis on benchmark performance and low cost. Objective2 arrives fully assembled, hand tested, and ready to enjoy. Made in the USA.




jdslabs.com


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## creativeforge (Feb 27, 2020)

tomorrowstops said:


> This is what I use with my K702’s (when plugged directly into my laptop; don’t need it when I’m using my interface)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks! Question: levels wise, _interface only_ vs the _amp only_: do they deliver pretty much the same volumes or does one bites more than the other?


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## Nate Johnson (Feb 27, 2020)

I guess I’m just finding that the interface is giving me plenty of gain without sacrificing anything. I keep its volume knob at 60% and rarely touch it. In fact I haven’t used the amp all, since I got the interface. 

I do the majority of my mixing this way and use my nearfields to check my work.


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## creativeforge (Jun 15, 2020)

I am starting to find the HD600 a bit too much on the bassy side. It makes mixing confusing, muddy. What do others do counter this? Feeding through a Firewire Saffire Pro 24 DSP (DSP not engaged).

Is this the part where people buy an amp to add the chain?

Thanks in advance!


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## ryans (Jun 16, 2020)

creativeforge said:


> I am starting to find the HD600 a bit too much on the bassy side.



Interesting.. powered by my THX AAA 789, I feel the HD600 has neutral to weak bass.. compared my other headphones. I do hear a slight bump around 100-120 Hz (maybe this is what's bothering you..) but.. to my ear, this is offset by the upper midrange peak around 3 kHz and the result is very natural and balanced sound overall..

Below 100 Hz this headphone gets very weak.. so I find sub bass adjustments must be referenced on different headphones or an external sub...

I suppose tube amps do colour the sound... I'm not that experienced with them, maybe a true audiophile could help you out there...

I guess this is obvious.. but you could also experiment with eq? Nothing wrong with that..


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## Dex (Jun 16, 2020)

creativeforge said:


> I am starting to find the HD600 a bit too much on the bassy side. It makes mixing confusing, muddy. What do others do counter this? Feeding through a Firewire Saffire Pro 24 DSP (DSP not engaged).
> 
> Is this the part where people buy an amp to add the chain?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


So, just to confirm, the professional mixes you're listening to on the hd600 sound muddy? 

If that's the case, an amp may help, yes. If your headphone jack is underpowered, it will distort the output, which can make it sound fuzzy. The higher you crank the volume the more it will distort, and bass distorts before mids and treble.


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## creativeforge (Jun 16, 2020)

Dex said:


> So, just to confirm, the professional mixes you're listening to on the hd600 sound muddy?
> 
> If that's the case, an amp may help, yes. If your headphone jack is underpowered, it will distort the output, which can make it sound fuzzy. The higher you crank the volume the more it will distort, and bass distorts before mids and treble.



Not professional mixes, no. Mine.

A member talked about it terms of "fuzz." So basically in my DAW, everything is clean and pristine, but once I create a mixdown to wav, the passage where the music becomes louder creates a "peak fuzz" if you will. It only happens outside the DAW. So it's probably not the headphones.

Still, very annoying, it sounds like it's distorting. So I can't trust my mixes right now. I wonder if it would be the same for others.


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## Dex (Jun 16, 2020)

I have never experienced that, but it sounds like the problem is in your rendering in your DAW, not with the headphones. If you want to post a mixdown to see if others are hearing the same problem, go for it.


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## creativeforge (Jun 17, 2020)

Dex said:


> I have never experienced that, but it sounds like the problem is in your rendering in your DAW, not with the headphones. If you want to post a mixdown to see if others are hearing the same problem, go for it.



So tonight I listened to that wav mixdown again, and it wasn't doing it. Then I started my DAW (Mixcraft) and listened to the original song, all good there too, as I expected. Leaving the DAW opened, I went back to my wav file to listen again. But it wouldn't play. I tried in Winamp with the mp3 file - same thing. So there is something going on between the DAW (which defaults at 48kHZ X 32 bit) and the audio layer (which defaults at 44.1 kHz X 16 bit). 

Mystery continues...


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## Jay Panikkar (Jun 17, 2020)

creativeforge said:


> So tonight I listened to that wav mixdown again, and it wasn't doing it. Then I started my DAW (Mixcraft) and listened to the original song, all good there too, as I expected. Leaving the DAW opened, I went back to my wav file to listen again. But it wouldn't play. I tried in Winamp with the mp3 file - same thing. So there is something going on between the DAW (which defaults at 48kHZ X 32 bit) and the audio layer (which defaults at 44.1 kHz X 16 bit).
> 
> Mystery continues...



Try disabling all sound enhancements for your audio device in the control panel:


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## vitocorleone123 (Jun 19, 2020)

The ATH 50s are good for mobile use out and about, but I found the DT880pro 250s plus Sonarworks (averaged) dialed in around 60% incomparably better. I’ve avoided Sennheiser due to reports of higher clamping force since I wear glasses all the time. Also, with the closed back, the ATH also eventually make my ears too hot - but it takes awhile.


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## SomeGuy (Jun 19, 2020)

Though the HD600 are open back, would they be ok for recording / tracking vocals and instruments or will the bleed be too much?

Was considering the akg k371 as they seem to have a fairly good response curve for the price and are closed back. Opinions welcome.


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## Dex (Jun 19, 2020)

You should get closed-back phones for tracking.


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## jaketanner (Aug 3, 2020)

SergeD said:


> Although I am not a specialist in that matter, I would like to relate my experience with the dt990 Premium version.
> 
> The first week, I regretted this purchase as the high-pitched sounds scratched my ears. I can not say if the burn-in effect played a role or if it's me who became deaf, but after a couple of weeks, listening has greatly improved and I must say that now I love these headphones.


Sorry to bring up an old post, but I just got the 990s and YES..the high end is piercing. Is this really due to the break in period? I switched from using the DT 770 and the 990 in comparison are super bright...makes me rethink things.


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## D Halgren (Aug 3, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> Sorry to bring up an old post, but I just got the 990s and YES..the high end is piercing. Is this really due to the break in period? I switched from using the DT 770 and the 990 in comparison are super bright...makes me rethink things.


Probably just break in. I remember the same thing when I got my 880's. Just rock them out overnight and then check them again.


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## jaketanner (Aug 3, 2020)

D Halgren said:


> Probably just break in. I remember the same thing when I got my 880's. Just rock them out overnight and then check them again.


Will do thanks.


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## jaketanner (Aug 3, 2020)

Does anyone use Sonarworks with. the DT990s? I am trying it and it does sound flatter, but how accurate does it translate?


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## D Halgren (Aug 3, 2020)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Last month I procured the Audeze LCD-X which has made my mixes and neck muscles more robust.


Indeed


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## jononotbono (Aug 3, 2020)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Last month I procured the Audeze LCD-X which has made my mixes and neck muscles more robust.



Can't imagine why anybody would use a pair of those things.


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## ryans (Aug 3, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> Sorry to bring up an old post, but I just got the 990s and YES..the high end is piercing. Is this really due to the break in period?



I had them for a while but eventually sold my dt990 pro due to this peak between 8-10k. I found it quite fatiguing even for short sessions.


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## jaketanner (Aug 3, 2020)

ryans said:


> I had them for a while but eventually sold my dt990 pro due to this peak between 8-10k. I found it quite fatiguing even for short sessions.


I'm trying it with Sonarworks and seems to sound pretty good with it on. I hate using EQ to flatten out the headphones but maybe that's what is needed? I feel like ordering the 600s as a comparison, then return which ever is worse. I may still end up using SW since a lot of people swear by it, and maybe starting a mix with it on is the way to go, rather than trying to check it after...


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## jaketanner (Aug 4, 2020)

So as an update...just ordered the Shure SRH 1440s...going to try them against the 990 and see which I will keep. I don't like having to use software to make the headphones flat...seems if this was an option naturally, the manufacturers would have done that. So going to find the closest I can that is reasonably priced.


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## Yogevs (Nov 10, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> So as an update...just ordered the Shure SRH 1440s...going to try them against the 990 and see which I will keep. I don't like having to use software to make the headphones flat...seems if this was an option naturally, the manufacturers would have done that. So going to find the closest I can that is reasonably priced.



Updates on this ?


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## jaketanner (Nov 10, 2020)

Yogevs said:


> Updates on this ?


Neither...went with Shure SRH 1840 and love them.


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## Tim_Wells (Nov 11, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> I don't like having to use software to make the headphones flat...seems if this was an option naturally, the manufacturers would have done that.


That may be true. But a very small percentage of the population buys headphones to produce music, or to mix and master on. And even among that population, not everyone's actively seeking a perfectly flat sound. 

Headphone manufacturers are competing to have that 'wow factor' when you try them. Again, a flat sound is not going to give you that. It seems there would be a pretty strong incentive to sweeten and color the sound, even on high end models.


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## JonS (Nov 11, 2020)

Though headphones are necessary at times when tracking/recording and other circumstances, one should avoid using headphones as much as possible since they can more easily cause hearing loss.


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## jaketanner (Nov 11, 2020)

JonS said:


> Though headphones are necessary at times when tracking/recording and other circumstances, one should avoid using headphones as much as possible since they can more easily cause hearing loss.


Don't I know it.. LOL


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## mscp (Nov 11, 2020)

Sennheiser team over here too. I've never had an issue... but I'm sure it's because I'm used to them.


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## Yogevs (Nov 11, 2020)

Got a used 990 yesterday - hopefully they will work well for me!


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