# Can you make it as a film composer outside of LA?



## michalioz (Jul 20, 2020)

Hi everyone, I catch myself thinking whether eventually moving to LA is going to contribute major points towards "making it" as a film composer. I am currently in London, and while I see the benefits of being here (as opposed to being elsewhere in Europe), I am still thinking about if it's worth it biting the bullet and moving to LA. Given the fuss: finding a day job there, VISA implications, restarting life etc. do you think that doing so is going to contribute like even 30% towards being successful?

In other words, a person who is supposedly doing everything right but is not in the LA, do you think (s)he suffers a 30% penalty towards making it?

Given that networking is important, how important is geography?


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## Karl Feuerstake (Jul 20, 2020)

I'm only barely out of the gates of education myself so I can't offer any credible advice, but I'd like to contribute to the conversation.

On this subject in the book 'On The Track: A Guide to Contemporary Film Scoring' (1990), the author and his interviewees state that you can only really make it in LA, but that London has potential since lots of directors operate out of there. They remark they do not think there is enough of a film production scene in any other city in the world, including New York, to really 'make it.'

Things may have changed over the last 30 years especially with the advent of social media, but I suspect it would be helpful to know what you consider to be having 'made it' - and maybe even know where you're standing in your career path right now. I personally don't expect it'd be easy to just move out there and find work without any credits already lined up. Working your local scene for a while first is probably a better start, especially since London has potential anyways.


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## Keith Theodosiou (Jul 20, 2020)

If that is how composer feel, LA is just going to be full of them if it isn't already lol.

In this day and age of internet and Skype, i wouldn't think it is that important. Yes it may help but if you really need to, you can always hop on a plane and be there for a few days.

Edit: If you do start to make it good there, then that would be the time to move out there but if you go there without the gigs, you could be waiting tables for a long time if you know hat i mean.
I could be wrong though lol


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## JohnG (Jul 20, 2020)

I think that to become good at anything -- lawyer, doctor, artist, composer -- you need to do it quite a lot for a sustained period, with intensity (like 10 hours or more a day for years).

But that's just part of it. To sustain yourself as an artist in any commercial arena, you need to be a person too -- have friends, maybe a nice family, be happy. Nobody looks forward to Eeyore, or The Cauldron Of Naked Ambition at the meeting.

*Los Angeles Culture*

And then, are you charismatic? Do people crave your company, laugh at your jokes, and invite you around?

Los Angeles has its faults but it does not lack charming, entertaining, witty, good-looking people. There are swarms of them. Guess who they hang out with? Other charming, entertaining, witty and good-looking people.

Moral rectitude -- hmm. Intellectual attainments -- hmmm. There are some but not so thick on the ground. You would not likely say to yourself, upon landing at LAX, "this place is redolent of moral rectitude and intellectual attainment."

Many years ago, when I'd first moved here, a college friend (an actress) invited me to a party. It took me a little while but then it dawned on me, "these people are all _incredibly_ good-looking." Not famous either -- just god-like.

And people work incredibly hard too. Eighty hour weeks? Routine.

*Should You? Who Knows?*

I define "making it" as trying to realise your dream but without destroying your soul or those dependent on you in the process. It's hard here, it's hard anywhere, and it keeps changing.

Big cities are merciless. It's anybody's guess about moving or staying. If you're in London, there's plenty going on.


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## Daryl (Jul 20, 2020)

My reply would be, what can you do in LA that you can't do where you are now? Are you a success in London? If not, why would you be a success in LA?


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## jonathanparham (Jul 20, 2020)

One of the reasons I participate in this forum is to hear different career experiences. There are other reasons: tech, sample libraries, and such but JJP put this down a while back and I've attached the link

Where I come from; this is called a testimony==>

JJP: Here's My story


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## bryla (Jul 20, 2020)

What constitutes making it? I work in the Spanish, Danish and Dutch film music market and each country has its own market of national films and many composers in each country can make it and make a decent living as composers for film, tv, stage and other mediums.
Does it get you to Hollywood? Probably so. I know several cases where the composer worked for a director that got a break in Hollywood and brought the composer with him.


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## JohnG (Jul 20, 2020)

bryla said:


> What constitutes making it? I work in the Spanish, Danish and Dutch film music market and each country has its own market of national films and many composers in each country can make it and make a decent living as composers for film, tv, stage and other mediums.
> Does it get you to Hollywood? Probably so. I know several cases where the composer worked for a director that got a break in Hollywood and brought the composer with him.



Great example. If you come to Los Angeles with just a copy of Cubase and a laptop -- yikes. But if, by contrast, you can rock Pro Tools, conduct, orchestrate, even copy parts or engineer a small session, you have more of a chance.

Working first in a smaller market so you actually have real, delivered-to-spec experience AND a relationship (or two) and maybe even the ability to call on other co-located fellow Nederlanders or Français or whatever -- that makes sense.


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## Tice (Jul 20, 2020)

I used to want to move to L.A., precisely to increase my chances of making it as a Hollywood composer. Now if I was already living elsewhere in the US, I might still have. But I live in the Netherlands. We have decent healthcare systems, decent wages, decent unions for most things, and all sorts of other things that try to prevent people from going bust. The US meanwhile has an increasingly impossible immigration policy, no healthcare system to speak of, a failing economy for everyone except the rich, a pandemic that is entirely out of control, a broken political system that is only getting worse, and a large political force actively trying to get rid of your freshly immigrated self.
I still want to work on Hollywood films. But if I can, I'll do it from here where things are less insane.
It's not just about the job after all, it's also about the rest of living where you live.


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## michalioz (Jul 20, 2020)

Thanks everyone for your responses and insights, I am excited to read them all. I agree that "making it" is subjective, I guess my definition is roughly to: 1. get enough projects to pay the bills and eventually replace your day job, 2. meet people that you admire and respect and which admire and respect you back and work with them, 3. find people who get to know you and call you for a project because they are looking for exactly your skillset and palette. I could go on but it's still a bit ambiguous and has several layers of "making it" as at this point I would say I "kinda made it" by getting a relatively steady stream of projects.

I seriously haven't topped out London and now looking to move, as I am a beginner (actually returning after a long break). I was just wondering what the reality is and to hear from people who have done this and are a step ahead.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 20, 2020)

michalioz said:


> I seriously haven't topped out London and now looking to move, as I am a beginner (actually returning after a long break). I was just wondering what the reality is and to hear from people who have done this and are a step ahead.



I think with the current state of the world, moving to the US isn’t really a good option, let alone in the foreseeable future. That, plus the lack of healthcare, would be enough to try and “make it” in London if I were in your shoes.

What does LA offer that you can’t achieve in London?


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## cmillar (Jul 20, 2020)

Tice said:


> I used to want to move to L.A., precisely to increase my chances of making it as a Hollywood composer. Now if I was already living elsewhere in the US, I might still have. But I live in the Netherlands. We have decent healthcare systems, decent wages, decent unions for most things, and all sorts of other things that try to prevent people from going bust. The US meanwhile has an increasingly impossible immigration policy, no healthcare system to speak of, a failing economy for everyone except the rich, a pandemic that is entirely out of control, a broken political system that is only getting worse, and a large political force actively trying to get rid of your freshly immigrated self.
> I still want to work on Hollywood films. But if I can, I'll do it from here where things are less insane.
> It's not just about the job after all, it's also about the rest of living where you live.



This is more ‘big picture’ and accurate.

For example, the principal trombonist from one of the big Dutch orchestras was offered the principal job in LA, but decided not to take the job and move to the US.

Why move to the US and have tentative health care, no job security, no childcare, a pension plan that could diasappear any year, etc.etc.etc.

Don’t move unless you’ve got unlimited financial resources or are willing to risk absolutely everything that most Americans would kill for.

The grass isn’t greener....it’s dying here.


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## gsilbers (Jul 20, 2020)

michalioz said:


> Thanks everyone for your responses and insights, I am excited to read them all. I agree that "making it" is subjective, I guess my definition is roughly to: 1. get enough projects to pay the bills and eventually replace your day job, 2. meet people that you admire and respect and which admire and respect you back and work with them, 3. find people who get to know you and call you for a project because they are looking for exactly your skillset and palette. I could go on but it's still a bit ambiguous and has several layers of "making it" as at this point I would say I "kinda made it" by getting a relatively steady stream of projects.
> 
> I seriously haven't topped out London and now looking to move, as I am a beginner (actually returning after a long break). I was just wondering what the reality is and to hear from people who have done this and are a step ahead.




There are a few things that go unnoticed in LA or poeple viewing from outside...

Do you think Directors, editors and composers just have 12 movies a year and work 1 a month?
which pays the bills?

Why do you think there is "oscars so white" hashtags and every (or most) oscar winning guys have something in common? MONEY. And those w money usually are young white men with connections and college degrees. thats why there is really no diversity in the oscars. 


Yep.. to make it as any of that you need to have money. if not, then you work in other things.. and working in other things wont let you work as a composer. nice catch 22 there.

So you either open a biz that runs itself, or get hired as an assitant right away (thats like competing in the westworld SF competition over and over!) , or orchestrate if you are that good (doubt it comapred to those hollywood catd - which btw - its the secret to that remote control biz)
or something along those lines.. where you buy time.
OR do like most succesful artist do.. just have money and hang out with poeple that are connected.
and have the time to be connected and meet poeple AND have time to practice or work.
with rent at $2000 per month and other expenses adding to $4k or something crazy like that in LA, plus 1+ hour commute for day jobs), then you get to start to see some issues.
How about X composer or this other dude who made it?.. yep.. we love to hear those stories... made it on their own etc etc...
but the reality (in numbers) is very different.

And also.. time.

Time and money are the biggest obstacles to becoming a compsoer in LA.


poeple dont hire you over zoom or because they saw a good demo. or you did a review and there is a good track or won a competition. how many "award winning composers" do u think there are out there? hint: a LOT.

nope, they hire you because you went a a friends birthday party, or a pet adaption volunteer event.. you met the assistant of a big time director and you keep in touch w him. Get to go to other parties or renunions you have in common.
then one time that assistant does a short personal project and calls you up. and maybe the big time director hears it and has a friends project who might need a composer.

OR you start as an intern at a music studio where you make some connections, move to some other random jobs where u make more connnections. and so on, and one of those might need something and so on. if you listen to mike vertas hours rants youd see this pattern. and it takes TIME... a LOT of TIME. if like trying to find a girlfriend, you need to go out and hang out with poeple.. make emotional connections. thats not a one meet and greet and a nice website sort of thing. its a lifelong career making these connections.

in a city of 6-8 million poeple that huge in geogrpahical size then you need to live in the west side near where those cratives are.. so back to paying $3000 or more to live kind of ok.

And finding those creative poeple is not easy either. and finding those connections that dont have already 10 composers its even harder.


i Mean, LA is great because i can randomly find great connections. everyone is in the same boat and you keep brushing into cool stuff. But id say for those who want to do it... the younger the better. out of college cats and early 20s.

but to make it as a full time film/tv composer yes... you need to be in LA or at least have been there for a while to make the connections that might bring jobs.

Im guessing it would be similar to finding jobs in London where its like second hollywood.
you need to hang out w poeple that can find you jobs but these poeple already have friends and composers... so...

oh, and visa requirements... not a thing that youd wanna go through. and companies here dont really care about that. so you cna get hired, and 3 month later its out the door, or no one wants to sponsor anymore. but maybe its one year later and the renewal proces doesnt work out and so on.
that a huge hassle and nerve wreking thing.

anyways... i do sound pessimistic but im trying ot be more "real" about the situation. You saw how many entires there where in that westwold competition. well, there a soooo many composers in LA.
And not so so composers. composers with amazing chops, whove done small shows or ghost written and so on. its crazy the amount of supply there is for composers. and thats just LA. just think of it this way: every year there is hundred of graduate from Berklee college of music, and other film music related schools... well, they all go to LA. if you count every year it adds up, and those guys get better and want the same thing as you. and most lilkey have a ton of money fro their arents to let them intern for one year w/o pay.

That just a summary of what basically happens on trying to make it a film composer in LA. 
that $3000 a month on rent (have enough space for a home studio is bad) and music not making that much money is where it goes sour fast.


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## Sly (Jul 20, 2020)

michalioz said:


> Thanks everyone for your responses and insights, I am excited to read them all. I agree that "making it" is subjective, I guess my definition is roughly to: 1. get enough projects to pay the bills and eventually replace your day job, 2. meet people that you admire and respect and which admire and respect you back and work with them, 3. find people who get to know you and call you for a project because they are looking for exactly your skillset and palette. I could go on but it's still a bit ambiguous and has several layers of "making it" as at this point I would say I "kinda made it" by getting a relatively steady stream of projects.
> 
> I seriously haven't topped out London and now looking to move, as I am a beginner (actually returning after a long break). I was just wondering what the reality is and to hear from people who have done this and are a step ahead.


Hi, I can't speak about the music industry nor LA. However I moved from UK to USA 2 yrs ago so I hope my insight might be useful from that perspective. I was requested to emigrate by the US nearly 3 and a half yrs ago. They appointed a company to recruit me and that company appointed lawyers to manage the whole process. I have an O1A visa and a National Interest Waiver. On approval of the visa in 2018 I moved here. I have only just got my Green Card even with all that support. Also, I understand that without the NIW I would have had to wait 5 yrs for a Green Card. That means you would need a sponsor or win the B class visa lottery that is run annually and work under whatever limitations were imposed on the visa. Also, I am fortunate that my job pays well. This is not a country where you want to be short of a few quid. The public (note in US this means state) schools in my experience a largely a joke, we are currently moving to a much more expensive area where the education system is International Baccalaureate from Primary through High school but that is rare outside of the private $$$ system. Healthcare is expensive even if you do have good insurance (which itself is $$$) with copays, disbursable liabilities etc, also the cover you are able to opt for with your employer may change year on year - I had zero disbursable, zero copay (pretty much like NHS and my premium was essentially like NI but cheaper) until it just wasnt an option this year and I ended up with worse cover. You will start with no credit history so figure how you are going to get a car, get your first credit card etc. Prepare to spend a lot on food unless you don't care what goes in your body. If you do move hit me up and I can let you know how I managed some of the above. It is not all bad out here but people are often so optimistic they forget to tell you the negatives. Personally, when I semi retire into creative stuff I am moving back to Europe for the culture which is the biggest thing I miss. Hope this helped a little?


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## d.healey (Jul 20, 2020)

michalioz said:


> Given that networking is important, how important is geography?


If you want to write music for films being made in Hollywood then it probably helps to be there, but films are made all over the world so you can "make it" wherever films are being made. The idea of being a Hollywood composer does not appeal to me, but scoring British independent films I find very appealing. Do what appeals to you.


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## asherpope (Jul 20, 2020)

There's successful film composers in all corners of the globe, so I don't think one has to be in LA (vastly overrated and soulless town from my brief experience) to 'make it'. It seems that 99% of major Hollywood studio output is absolute garbage anyway


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## Rory (Jul 20, 2020)

I grew up in the film business and I lived for a number of years at Malibu on the beach. You don't get more Hollywood than that.

I don't live in California now and I have no interest in doing so in the future. Same for British Columbia, where one of my brothers lives, as beautiful as it is.

I just relate better to the east coast, and I like being eight hours from Europe, where I've also lived.

Nothing more complicated than that.

Given that you're in the UK, it would be interesting to have @jononotbono's perspective if he hasn't weighed in already.


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## jononotbono (Jul 20, 2020)

Tice said:


> The US meanwhile has an increasingly impossible immigration policy, no healthcare system to speak of, a failing economy for everyone except the rich, a pandemic that is entirely out of control, a broken political system that is only getting worse, and a large political force actively trying to get rid of your freshly immigrated self.



There’s also a negative side.


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## Rory (Jul 20, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> There’s also a negative side.



You're just saying that because you don't sufficiently appreciate Andrew's and Bill's great chemistry


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## ryst (Jul 20, 2020)

michalioz said:


> Hi everyone, I catch myself thinking whether eventually moving to LA is going to contribute major points towards "making it" as a film composer. I am currently in London, and while I see the benefits of being here (as opposed to being elsewhere in Europe), I am still thinking about if it's worth it biting the bullet and moving to LA. Given the fuss: finding a day job there, VISA implications, restarting life etc. do you think that doing so is going to contribute like even 30% towards being successful?
> 
> In other words, a person who is supposedly doing everything right but is not in the LA, do you think (s)he suffers a 30% penalty towards making it?
> 
> Given that networking is important, how important is geography?



I cannot speak for anyone else but I don't regret moving here 10 years ago at all. Wish I moved sooner. I'm not even close to "making it" but then again, I have my hand in a lot of pies and am not just a composer. Being good and valuable to people at multiple things has helped me a ton. 2020 has been rough in a lot of ways but I think LA is still a great place to be. We'll see what the future holds. Good luck, either way!


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## azmusic (Jul 20, 2020)

Hello all thanks for the great read and experiences. I live in New York City (recent MSM grad) and lived in Amsterdam for a short while so the US and European cultural and lifestyle differences are interesting! I had the time of my life in Amsterdam but it never really felt like home, mostly like the longest vacation of my life. Felt like I wasn’t able to progress while abroad and ultimately caused some anxiety issues. No regrets though. Beautiful people and country.

Being in a similar position, I’ll just add that you should put some thought into what would make you happy and building your income sources around that.

For me, I love scoring and film deeply but there is absolutely nothing that attracts me about LA, culturally or practically. I’ve also found that I don’t really need to be scoring films day in and day out year after year to be content (this may not be the case for you). If I work on, 2-4 film projects (even independent/small scale) a year and maybe an oddball game track or something every so often. I’m really happy to do that!

clearly, that’s not a living. I’m a saxophone player and play gigs, record for others, teach, freelance audio engineering work, photo/video, occasional production work, beginning a social media brand... all these things and I still work part-time (in a music business) to pay my Manhattan rent! As my other sources of income grow, hoping to leave that soon but point being that I really wouldn’t have this any other way. I’m working on or playing music 5-10 hours a day and scratching some varied interests while building some marketable skills. I don’t wish I was in LA pandering to Hollywood likes even though the Thomas Newman life is admirable and enviable


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## Arbee (Jul 21, 2020)

Apologies if I'm derailing this thread at all, but I've evolved some very subjective observations about "LA" vs "rest of world" lately. My perception is that most of the interesting and innovative music I'm hearing these days is coming from Euro/Scandinavian/Asian streaming foreign language series and movies. My ear and viewing taste has tired of the old Hollywood formula stuff visually and aurally. And where are the iconic Williams/Zimmer/Powell etc film scores suddenly? Is "LA or bust" still the appropriate mindset? Or am I just getting old, or both? Just a thought bubble....


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## Keith Theodosiou (Jul 21, 2020)

I just think that if you are a composer in London or anywhere else around the world and you start getting a name for yourself, if Hollywood want you, they will get in touch.
The world is a very small place now so commuting shouldn't be a problem really.


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## cmillar (Jul 21, 2020)

Being realistic here for a second...

Before moving to the US you should wait and see what happens in the November elections. If the same “wanna-be totalitarian fascists” get re-elected then do some serious re-thinking.

Possible scenarios include total crackdowns on all non-citizens or legal residents regardless of any field of employment, which would include the entertainment industries. Extremely real possibility.

There is a very real ‘anti-culture‘ mindset amongst the right wing politicians who are in office. They would love nothing better than to shut down ‘the Hollywood-lefties’ and make life impossibly difficult for anybody that might create any form of content that could conflict with their ‘America-first’ ideology (which means let’s just have conservative white people work for corporate interests that support right-wing beliefs).....hmmm....notice what’s happening in the media world these days?

(when you live and work in the Washington DC area we know people who work for gov’t agencies and hear what’s going on behind the headlines)

Hey....I live and die for music, the arts, and all that best of what humanity can create; which includes a humane society.

But discussions like this have to include some reality.

if you’re doing well and living well in Europe, why would you want to move to the US especially at his point in history?


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## j_kranz (Jul 21, 2020)

My personal feelings... having done the LA thing for a dozen years and then making the personal/family decision to leave, is that theres nothing else out there like that experience and the connections you’ll make.

I went to Berklee, and in my class was Matt Margesson and Pinar Toprak. I took more classes in LA and met Jacob Shea and Greg Tripi. All of these composers are brilliant and now very successful, and what did they all do? Work for other composers in LA. It can’t be stated enough how important that opportunity can be. Yes there are lots of other composers out there, but its important to realize they arent all your competition, they are your community. Most of the meaningful gigs I worked on came through other composers in some form.

My personal career has become very much focused on other things that I simply found myself becoming more passionate about (sound design and virtual instrument development)... but I don’t think I would have gotten to that conclusion without having spent the time in LA that I did.

So that all being said, I always recommend it but as others have noted, it ain’t cheap and it ain’t easy, and only unless you have a good five years that you can survive by scraping by then go for it and I don’t think you’d regret it.


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## borisb2 (Jul 22, 2020)

speaking of UK and europe, any insight whats happening in good old germany? I heard berlin is becoming more and more a hub for creatives serving the european market?


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## ptram (Jul 23, 2020)

While Hollywood is still about 40% of the American film production, it is also a very saturated place, and one with a not so clear future. I wonder if they are still accepting new talents.

A vast majority of its production is adventure, a genre that may be on the verge of losing appeal. And if a blockbuster flops, it causes high losses to the whole industry.

Growth has been nearly flat for a few years. Competition from new producers, stronger than the usual majors on the home market, may pose a risk for the future.

There are other production centers around the world that are growing fast. China and India are already huge. I know the UK government is planning massive investments on the arts. Everything is still to be seen. If it becomes reality, maybe London (and other places on the island) will become even more attractive.

Paolo


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## ptram (Jul 23, 2020)

borisb2 said:


> I heard berlin is becoming more and more a hub for creatives serving the european market?


Germany produces a lot of TV films and series for the public or semi-public European TV networks. There is a lot of work, but I don't expect a blockbuster anytime soon, nor a chance to achieve the popularity an Hollywood movie may allow.

The film industry across Europe is highly subsidized by public funds, so it is likely to remain more of the "independent" type, dependent from a state jury. An oxymoron, I know, that is however warranting a low-key, working industry.

Paolo


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## gsilbers (Jul 23, 2020)

Arbee said:


> Apologies if I'm derailing this thread at all, but I've evolved some very subjective observations about "LA" vs "rest of world" lately. My perception is that most of the interesting and innovative music I'm hearing these days is coming from Euro/Scandinavian/Asian streaming foreign language series and movies. My ear and viewing taste has tired of the old Hollywood formula stuff visually and aurally. And where are the iconic Williams/Zimmer/Powell etc film scores suddenly? Is "LA or bust" still the appropriate mindset? Or am I just getting old, or both? Just a thought bubble....



Since i worked in distirbution at one of the major hollywood studios, i got to see an interesting point of view. And kept seeing how LA is just many smal bubbles and each think different things.
im guessing worldwide it gets even more complex...


but one thing many dont realize... or dont seem to grasp the reality.. 

is the amount of movies and TV made in LA. 
then there is worldwide, which most likley gets its post done in LA. 

But here is a quick glance at just how big this work is










Feature Film, Released between 2019-01-01 and 2019-12-31 (Sorted by Popularity Ascending) - IMDb


IMDb's advanced search allows you to run extremely powerful queries over all people and titles in the database. Find exactly what you're looking for!




www.imdb.com





movies made in 2019= 11,434

I think the first 200 are mainly hollywood. 

The most famous are the ones we kept seeing and thats the little remote control bubble with hans at the helm. 

but the rest of the 5000 (or whatever) movies is where the opotunities lie in LA. B movies, international movies..

yes, even international movies get scored in LA. 

why? 

Because the pool of compsoers is greater in LA. There are composers from all over the world in LA. 
So itll be easier for junkie xl to score a move in LA than if he'd stayed in holand. even for movies made in holland. 

same for asian and south american movies. 

obvously, its a lot of movies, in a lot of countries and each case is different. and some movies are all done in their countries. 
but filmmakers want to do hollywood movies and to do that they want to get the hollywood post.


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## gsilbers (Jul 23, 2020)

ptram said:


> Germany produces a lot of TV films and series for the public or semi-public European TV networks. There is a lot of work, but I don't expect a blockbuster anytime soon, nor a chance to achieve the popularity an Hollywood movie may allow.
> 
> The film industry across Europe is highly subsidized by public funds, so it is likely to remain more of the "independent" type, dependent from a state jury. An oxymoron, I know, that is however warranting a low-key, working industry.
> 
> Paolo



ah yes, forgot about that. even for EU movies that do the Post in LA, they want to hire only EU (passport holding) compsoers and post production personel so it can be deducted.
So that can be seen as an oportunity for those EU cats that move to LA. add that info in your website


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