# Music NFTs - FINALLY IT HAPPEN



## Arturas Saskinas (Jul 8, 2022)

Hello folks! Didn’t posted in VI for a while, had a long road reaching the start of my collaborations with Oscar, Grammy, Emmy winning creators. Finally got there I dreamed to be. But this thread is not about me - it’s about something greater. 

As you know technology of digital arts are moving forward very fast. You can remember years of years trying to get a simple job in film, media, theatre, anywhere... It is extremely difficult to get paid for your music art these days even you are a multi extra genius. Competition is very strong. 

Lets get to the point. I’ve been following blockchain technology for years, specially NFTs. Some of you heard about that, but let me explain what it is actually. Simple illustrations sold for hundreds of thousands, even millions of dollars each - first I thought it is absolutely the greatest craziness in the history happening, but after some time I got what it is. It is the greatest opportunity for the creative arts industry.

Just some days ago - finally! Doors opened for music NFTs. Once it happen I got here in the very first minute and minted some of those on Binance( biggest centralised exchange in the world ). The process was crazy, I was the one who reported many issues happening at the minting process, but it was very well conducted by the platform and solved to FINALLY allow mint music NFTs. It is a record in blockchain which is impossible to delete or hide. Once you’ve done, you done. Single piece of music can be minted tens of thousands times and each sold for hundreds of dollars( on each buy sell transactions you earn royalties as well ) , or mint unique NFTs and get thousands of thousands for it - that is how market works.

Music NFTs is just something what worth of attention. Not tomorrow or after some time, but definitely now, until this space is very empty.

Just today I created a telegram group for those who want to start minting their music NFTs, collaborate with cover artists, discuss and at the later stage represent their creations for huge audiences in the space:









NFT Music


New Era of NFT




t.me





This is not a promotion and I am not selling anything, I am here to spread the word about the opportunity which was missing for decades. 

Fell free to contact me on Telegram group or in this forum - I am always active, except when I sleep  

Arturas


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## Getsumen (Jul 8, 2022)

Oh god the end is nigh


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## Markrs (Jul 8, 2022)

NFT along with most crypto are just full of people hoping that some other idiot will pay more for something worthless!


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## doctoremmet (Jul 8, 2022)

FINALLY! 






NFT Companies stealing your Spotify music (another one)


https://www.engadget.com/music-nft-site-hit-piece-temporarily-shuts-down-following-artist-outrage-110929645.html https://www.marifilmines.com/hit-piece-nft-scam/ Well.. there is a new one called NFT Music Stream @nftmusicstream https://nftmusic.stream



vi-control.net


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## Coffee-Milk (Jul 8, 2022)

Opening statement alone tells me everything.


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## RogiervG (Jul 8, 2022)

new fraudulent tech


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## Piotrek K. (Jul 8, 2022)

Damn, I'd report it as a spam if not written by member with actual post. NFT? I prefer Mentos.


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## chrisav (Jul 8, 2022)

Fuck this on every single level


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## jcrosby (Jul 9, 2022)

Arturas Saskinas said:


> Hello folks! Didn’t posted in VI for a while, had a long road reaching the start of my collaborations with Oscar, Grammy, Emmy winning creators. Finally got there I dreamed to be. But this thread is not about me - it’s about something greater.
> 
> As you know technology of digital arts are moving forward very fast. You can remember years of years trying to get a simple job in film, media, theatre, anywhere... It is extremely difficult to get paid for your music art these days even you are a multi extra genius. Competition is very strong.
> 
> ...


Dear sir. Please take your NFT and politely stick it up your arse.
Who knows. Maybe someone will pay you in non-fungible tokens for an original ares-particle-encrusted NFT freshly pried from your sleezy backside.


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## Saxer (Jul 9, 2022)

This is really great... but what for?


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

arcduelist said:


> Opening statement alone tells me everything.


How so?


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

Not really understanding the ire. 

Within certain limits, people are free to spend their money on whatever they want to. If someone is able to make money meeting those desires, what's the issue?


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## tressie5 (Jul 9, 2022)

'Nuff said.


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## Markrs (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> Not really understanding the ire.
> 
> Within certain limits, people are free to spend their money on whatever they want to. If someone is able to make money meeting those desires, what's the issue?


Because these are scams, worthless. There are plenty of naive people that buy them in hope of making a fortune but of course they won't. Whilst it is their money, I have never believed that scams should just be allowed to prey on people's naivety. For me this is the same with Multi-Level-Marketing, Ponzi schemes or the many other scams out there. Until something is outlawed or regulated there are plenty of people that will pump the newest get rich quick scheme hoping for the next sucker.


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## doctoremmet (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> Not really understanding the ire.
> 
> Within certain limits, people are free to spend their money on whatever they want to. If someone is able to make money meeting those desires, what's the issue?


Of course @el-bo - but it is to be expected that this post, especially how it is worded, gets a certain reception. You see, there are hardly any documented actual sensible use cases for NFTs other than the initial rush to the market of exactly the Ponzi schemes Mark describes. And those types of schemes TYPICALLY go hand in hand with announcements that lack any nuance, use all-caps to express what a MARVEL these NFTs are and how happy we should all feel about it. Much like how sample libraries are marketed. I did not see any Jasper Blunk style “here’s what this doesn’t do and here are some limitations and caveats” disclaimer or nuance in OP’s original post. Nope, none at all.

I appreciate how you seem to always (want to) be the voice of reason, or want to see the good in what is perceived by a vocal majority as not-necessarily good. Or want to point out the unethical where you see it. But honestly, sometimes it helps to just recognize a post for what it is and leave it at that. There’s nothing wrong with people giving their primal gut reactions.


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## doctoremmet (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> How so?


Because he starts with a humble brag. If that doesn’t matter and it is not supposed to be about him, or how great he or his collaborators are, why include that first paragraph? Other than to establish some sort of authority or sense of importance?

I feel it was deliberately written down that way. Which makes it vulnerable for reactions by whoever reads it. That’s my take anyway.


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

Markrs said:


> Because these are scams, worthless. There are plenty of naive people that buy them in hope of making a fortune but of course they won't. Whilst it is their money, I have never believed that scams should just be allowed to prey on people's naivety. For me this is the same with Multi-Level-Marketing, Ponzi schemes or the many other scams out there. Until something is outlawed or regulated there are plenty of people that will pump the newest get rich quick scheme hoping for the next sucker.


But the idea of it being just another get rich quick scheme is separate from what I understood was its original intent i.e the exclusive ownership of one-off pieces of art, from beloved creators.


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## Technostica (Jul 9, 2022)

Nihilistic Financial Transaction. (Mic drop)


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## doctoremmet (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> But the idea of it being just another get rich quick scheme is separate from what I understood was its original intent i.e the exclusive ownership of one-off pieces of art, from beloved creators.


This is correct. Which explains the expectation gap. Prior not so good experiences with largely marketing driven NFT launches to get rich quick, have made many people wary of unnuanced “THIS IS INCREDIBLE” marketing attempts. Does that surprise you?


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## Markrs (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> But the idea of it being just another get rich quick scheme is separate from what I understood was its original intent i.e the exclusive ownership of one-off pieces of art, from beloved creators.


There is no ownership, you get a link to a file, unless you give ownership as part of the "smart contact" you own nothing excerpt a link in one Blockchain, of which there are thousands.


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## doctoremmet (Jul 9, 2022)

It’s a token ownership


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

Markrs said:


> … unless you give ownership as part of the "smart contact"


…which is what I’m referring to.

Is it still possible to sell an exclusive piece of art, to one owner?


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## ckeddf (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> But the idea of it being just another get rich quick scheme is separate from what I understood was its original intent i.e the exclusive ownership of one-off pieces of art, from beloved creators.


Why not buy a transfer of copyright directly from a beloved creator? No blockchain needed. No minting fees, no third parties involved.


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## Brasart (Jul 9, 2022)

Arturas Saskinas said:


> Hello folks! Didn’t posted in VI for a while


You had a great opportunity to continue not to post on this forum, too bad you chose to waste this chance with a post like that !


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## Arbee (Jul 9, 2022)

Arturas Saskinas said:


> This is not a promotion and I am not selling anything, I am here to spread the word about the opportunity.....


😂😂😂🖕


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

ckeddf said:


> Why not buy a transfer of copyright directly from a beloved creator? No blockchain needed. No minting fees, no third parties involved.


Presumably, the process of copyright transfer is more difficult (also involving costs?) than selling NFT?

I really am ignorant about all of this. Literally, the only exposure I've had to the idea was via Brian Transeau (BT) on an episode of the 'Sonic Talk Podcast', some months ago. The hate NFT's attract seems very much to be directed at what is a perversion of the original intent. But I am curious if it is still possible to interact with the whole process in its original form.


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## Markrs (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> …which is what I’m referring to.
> 
> Is it still possible to sell an exclusive piece of art, to one owner?


They could though them you don't really need an NFT as you are selling the copywriter or composers share of the track. That is something you can already do.


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## doctoremmet (Jul 9, 2022)

ckeddf said:


> Why not buy a transfer of copyright directly from a beloved creator? No blockchain needed. No minting fees, no third parties involved.


But….

Does that…



Arturas Saskinas said:


> or mint unique NFTs and get thousands of thousands for it - that is how market works.



make you thousands and thousands?

I have a couple of lousy Soundcloud noodles I will gladly sell to OP for mere hundreds and hundreds, so imagine the profit opportunities!


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## Markrs (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> Presumably, the process of copyright transfer is more difficult (also involving costs?) than selling NFT?


It doesn't bypass the need to sell the copyright. An NFT is just a link to a file nothing more. In the case of the Bored Ape Yacht Club NFT (which are probably the most well known NFTs) you get the right to use the Ape image you own commercial as part of the license, but you still don't own it, just a license to use it commercially.


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## creativeforge (Jul 9, 2022)

He does have music online. 









Arturas Saskinas


International award winning composer, producer and entrepreneur




soundcloud.com


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## ckeddf (Jul 9, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> But….
> 
> Does that…
> 
> ...


😄 You have a point there. Please don't forget: I'm not here to promote or sell anything, just make people aware of the opportunity. Right, I'm off to work with some Nobel prize winners.


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## Markrs (Jul 9, 2022)

I need to add that you also have to pay to mint an NFT plus transaction fees to convert cash to a crypto currency. So it isn't free to mint these. The fee was about $60 I think to mint image based NFTs and have them listed for sale, though it likely varies.


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

Markrs said:


> It doesn't bypass the need to sell the copyright. An NFT is just a link to a file nothing more. In the case of the Bored Ape Yacht Club NFT (which are probably the most well known NFTs) you get the right to use the Ape image you own commercial as part of the license, but you still don't own it, just a license to use it commercially.


So, you are buying copyrighted pieces of art?

I also don't understand the problem with owning nothing more than a file. In a world where many of us are used to media being in digital-form only, why is this an issue? Can't exclusivity still apply to the exchange of files?


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

creativeforge said:


> He does have music online.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good music


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## doctoremmet (Jul 9, 2022)

It’s not an issue. There just aren’t many perks or benefits to owning NFTs, that’s all. Except for stuff like swords and items like that in games that could be bought and sold between gamers via NFTs, for reasonable prices instead of being “locked in” inside of a game’s economy, governed by a publisher. Those are pretty good use cases. Yet, in the gaming world publishers seem mainly just interested in NFTs to dream up ways to further monetize their user base, drive speculative scams, and stuff like that.

But noone wants to buy your tracks for thousands and thousands, which is the premise of this post and what attracts the reactions or “ire” that surprised you initially. This is not so much a general discussion of whether or not there are useful ideas for NFTs. There are, noone says there aren’t.


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## Markrs (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> So, you are buying copyrighted pieces of art?
> 
> I also don't understand the problem with owning nothing more than a file. In a world where many of us are used to media being in digital-form only, why is this an issue? Can't exclusivity still apply to the exchange of files?


You don't even own the file you own the link to the file that any one can see and access as it is on the Blockchain. You own no more than you do buying the track for 99p to listen to it.


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## Markrs (Jul 9, 2022)

It is like back in the gold mining days, those that got rich sold the tools and the clothes (Levi's), 99.9% of gold miners earned nothing and just lost money.

The only people getting rich are the crypto exchanges and places with the platform to sell the NFTs as they charge you for adding them to their platform, basically a listing fee.


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

Markrs said:


> You don't even own the file you own the link to the file that any one can see and access as it is on the Blockchain. You own no more than you do buying the track for 99p to listen to it.


So why was it originally touted as being exclusive?


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## doctoremmet (Jul 9, 2022)

For bragging rights mainly. And for you to be able to sell it on.

Last week I was in the Belvedere museum in Vienna. They had cut up a picture of The Kiss by Gustav Klimt in 1000 pieces, and sold each piece a hundred times.

What’s in it for the buyer: you own a numbered link to your Nth piece of a digital picture of The Kiss. And you get to say you hold that link. And get to sell it, in case for some unknown reason in the future people really develop a need for 100.000 links to a couple of bits, forming a hi res JPEG of Gustav Klimt’s The Kiss.


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## doctoremmet (Jul 9, 2022)

Here’s a free picture of Gustav Klimt’s The Kiss:


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## Markrs (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> So why was it originally touted as being exclusive?


The link is exclusive, but viewable by anyone, you are buying the link text not the object it links to. That link text is associated to your name in the blockchain. That is all you get. You have no right to the object it links to! You are buying just some text that is it.


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## doctoremmet (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> I also don't understand the problem with owning nothing more than a file. In a world where many of us are used to media being in digital-form only, why is this an issue?


There is no issue. But tell me @el-bo, would you rather pay to own a link to a piece of The Kiss, or just download the picture. What benefit would the first option give you over the latter?

By all means, feel free to buy as many NFTs as you like. You like to ask questions, but this is my honest question to you. Since you seem to be genuinely interested in this subject… What benefits do you see that warrant paying hundreds or even thousands to own an NFT? Are there actual benefits HOLDING the NFT? Can one earn license fees or something? Can one do things with the “ownership”? Is it just the pleasure it brings being able to say one holds a certain unique “thing”? 

Genuinely curious what your perceived use of these things is.

What I mainly get from the OP is that NFTs offer an opportunity to musicians to make a decent amount of money. Under what conditions would you feel it is ethical to sell or auction off a piece of music in the form of an NFT for thousands and thousands? Except for the argument “whatever people want to pay for something, as long as they exercise their free will anything goes”. Are there other arguments to be made why NFT transactions would command such high money transfers in your opinion? I am looking for a POV where selling links to music that is generally available to the public for those amounts makes sense.


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

Markrs said:


> The link is exclusive, but viewable by anyone.


Ok...but isn't this the same as anyone being able to listen to Eminem's music, despite Michael Jackson owning the catalogue?

There is some ownership even with the link, right?


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## doctoremmet (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> Ok...but isn't this the same as anyone being able to listen to Eminem's music, despite Michael Jackson owning the catalogue?


No. Which is kind of Mark’s point. Jackson is able to monetize his ownership of the catalogue. NFT holders aren’t. Except when someone else wants to buy their NFT that is, which does not represent any further intrinsic value or monetization options.


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## doctoremmet (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> There is some ownership even with the link, right?


Yes: the ownership to the link. That’s all you’d own.


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## Markrs (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> Ok...but isn't this the same as anyone being able to listen to Eminem's music, despite Michael Jackson owning the catalogue?
> 
> There is some ownership even with the link, right?


Any one can see and access the link, but the link text is linked to your name, that is all you get, no rights to the music, no ownership, no monetisation, excerpt for the ability to sell the link text. Where the file is held can be removed as you don't own the storage of the file. You own a text link to a file that could be removed at any time.

Also remember that there are 1000s of different blockchains so the creator of the NFT can sell that same link text on another Blockchain so even that is not necessarily unique or exclusive, as it is only exclusive on a specific Blockchain.


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## Markrs (Jul 9, 2022)

Another way to look at it is, I add a file to Dropbox and create a public link to it. I then create a spreadsheet and in one column I add the link and in another column I add the purchases name. This spreadsheet is then viewable by anyone including the link to the Dropbox file. All you have paid for is your name next to that link in a spreadsheet. You have bought nothing else.


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## doctoremmet (Jul 9, 2022)

But one thing: you’re safe in the knowledge the spreadsheet can’t be changed! 😂


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## Arturas Saskinas (Jul 9, 2022)

Oh wow. I see a lot of hate here in your comments. I posted it as an opportunity. Ir is completely easy to get in to this train at the moment and create a trend of quality Music NFTs and don’t let anyone who don’t even understand what the composition is to rule the market since its start - as it happened with simple NFT art, where programmers took a place of artists. There is still a huge chance to rule this market for ones who actually creates real music art. Once you start to hate this technology since the cery beginning it will make you feel even worst after you will see market full of these NFTs made by the same programmers who simply will sell not the real music art, but single notes for millions. And the train will be far far away at that time and to get a spot for you in this industry will be lost as it happened before with the simple NFT art.

And those who thinks that NFTs are worthless are absolutely wrong. Yes, you can sell exclusive right of your art to individual. Everything depends on how you structured your NFT and how you actually want to mint it.

My suggestion is don’t be losers in this industry from the very start as you are the most professional composers in this industry. Better kill your EGOs and become ones who owns this place. I even didn’t started to talk about metaverse where NfTs will have huge future. 

Don’t let your spot to be taken by individuals who don’t have any clue about creative arts.


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## Markrs (Jul 9, 2022)

Arturas Saskinas said:


> My suggestion is don’t be losers in this industry from the very start as you are the most professional composers in this industry.


There it is, the one thing behind all crypto, FOMO. No one can tell you the real value that crypto or NFTs bring, but they can sell you on the fear of missing out 😂

If you make plenty of money off others all power to you.


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## FinGael (Jul 9, 2022)

Arturas Saskinas said:


> Better kill your EGOs and become ones who owns this place.


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## Brasart (Jul 9, 2022)

Arturas Saskinas said:


> Oh wow. I see a lot of hate here in your comments. I posted it as an opportunity. Ir is completely easy to get in to this train at the moment and create a trend of quality Music NFTs and don’t let anyone who don’t even understand what the composition is to rule the market since its start - as it happened with simple NFT art, where programmers took a place of artists. There is still a huge chance to rule this market for ones who actually creates real music art. Once you start to hate this technology since the cery beginning it will make you feel even worst after you will see market full of these NFTs made by the same programmers who simply will sell not the real music art, but single notes for millions. And the train will be far far away at that time and to get a spot for you in this industry will be lost as it happened before with the simple NFT art.
> 
> And those who thinks that NFTs are worthless are absolutely wrong. Yes, you can sell exclusive right of your art to individual. Everything depends on how you structured your NFT and how you actually want to mint it.
> 
> ...


Here's the state of your scam speculative market buddy; it's not a train, it's a trainwreck






I'm sorry if you yourself got scammed into crypto and are trying to recoup your losses, but lying about yourself, your imaginary contacts and the project you're trying to sell is just the lowest sense of decency you can achieve.


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## Arturas Saskinas (Jul 9, 2022)

Talking about business. Here is what I do: https://staging.creatstep.com

Lets have a look and you may understand, that I am here not to spread false information or create a FOMO which has no value. I am just a simple guy who follows the blockchain techology and connecting the dots between it and high quality creative arts.

Best 🤍


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## Hadrondrift (Jul 9, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> What I mainly get from the OP is that NFTs offer an opportunity to musicians to make a decent amount of money.


I did a google, OP is also CEO of the platform CreatStep (pdf), which has tried its hand at a DeFi token (SCP) and are just creating another one. (Correction: not new token, but a migration). Don't get me wrong, nothing really wrong with that! But quite often in the crypto world such platforms function as a hype train and are created just to make artificially inflated prices of associated DeFi or other tokens plausible.

I have been watching cryptocurrencies for many years. In general, it is often not the end user who will win here, but the initial issuers and platform operators. Price manipulation in this unregulated market is hardly controllable and legally often not even punishable. So quite crucially, the ordinary outsiders and average Joes are almost always at an informational disadvantage and prone to lose money.

With NFTs I would therefore always be very careful to put money into. Essentially, trading NFTs is about finding the next greater fool that will buy an overpriced token from you. It is like everyone throws a hot potato to each other and whoever holds it last loses, while everyone shouts: »I have here the tastiest potato in the world! Will be worth millions in the next few years!«, just to get rid of it to avoid burning their fingers.

The actual content that the NFT represents, the thing it points to, is essentially interchangeable. Whether the NFT represents music, a piece of land in a Metaverse or just a pixel monkey doesn't really matter. It's all about hype and a hoped-for increase in value. Buyers don't want the useless virtual land, don't want the stupid monkey, don't want the music. They just want to have something they think they can sell later to a greater fool for profit. For me this devalues the music, robs it of any artistic aspect and makes itself not also, but _only_ a commodity.

So if I want to sell my music via NFTs then I need to know that most people will not buy my music because they like it. Basically, they don't care about my music. They are only interested in the increase in value of the associated NFT. Many artists would not be satisfied with that, but some certainly don't care.

If the opening post is supposed to be a call that we too can create such NFTs, create platforms, set high prices, try to find greater fools music lovers to make big money, then for me this is a call to exploit the clueless.


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## GtrString (Jul 9, 2022)

Hmm, should I buy an NFT or a new skin for my League of Legends hero, or… a new Waves plugin?? Choices, choices.. whaddayadunk?


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## Arturas Saskinas (Jul 9, 2022)

Hadrondrift said:


> I did a google, OP is also CEO of the platform CreatStep (pdf), which has tried its hand at a DeFi token (SCP) and are just creating another one. Don't get me wrong, nothing really wrong with that! But quite often in the crypto world such platforms function as a hype train and are created just to make artificially inflated prices of associated DeFi tokens plausible.
> 
> I have been watching cryptocurrencies for many years. In general, it is often not the end user who will win here, but the initial issuers and platform operators. Price manipulation in this unregulated market is hardly controllable and legally often not even punishable. So quite crucially, the ordinary outsiders and average Joes are almost always at an informational disadvantage and prone to lose money.
> 
> ...


We are not launched SCOPE and created a new one. That is incorrect. We migrate in to a better contract and increasing value significally. That is another topic 

All time high of SCOPE was 1.5M marketcap and it was available only on DEX, CREAT token is launching at Top Tier CEX with the start markatcap of 10M not losing any of previous token holders, but increasing their holdings 3 times in price.


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## Brasart (Jul 9, 2022)

Hadrondrift said:


> I did a google, OP is also CEO of the platform CreatStep (pdf), which has tried its hand at a DeFi token (SCP) and are just creating another one. Don't get me wrong, nothing really wrong with that! But quite often in the crypto world such platforms function as a hype train and are created just to make artificially inflated prices of associated DeFi tokens plausible.
> 
> I have been watching cryptocurrencies for many years. In general, it is often not the end user who will win here, but the initial issuers and platform operators. Price manipulation in this unregulated market is hardly controllable and legally often not even punishable. So quite crucially, the ordinary outsiders and average Joes are almost always at an informational disadvantage and prone to lose money.
> 
> ...


I mean it's not hard to smell OP's scam from miles away, his company virtually doesn't exist:

• There's literally 0 engagement anywhere
• Most socials are dead and return dead links
• There's absolutely no SEO whatsoever
• No proof of those "masterclasses" being actually real besides teasers, which are probably the only content that was produced
• He uses his company name to sell his own music as NFTs _(which no one bids on surprinsigly)_: https://www.binance.com/en/nft/collection/creatstep-596011403136016384?orderBy=list_time&orderType=-1&isBack=0&id=596011403136016384&[email protected]

To be honest I think the guy should just get instantly banned, but it's also funny to watch someone being so bad at deceiving other people


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 9, 2022)

Ponzi, baby!








Ponzi scheme - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## doctoremmet (Jul 9, 2022)

Hadrondrift said:


> I did a google, OP is also CEO of the platform CreatStep (pdf), which has tried its hand at a DeFi token (SCP) and are just creating another one. Don't get me wrong, nothing really wrong with that! But quite often in the crypto world such platforms function as a hype train and are created just to make artificially inflated prices of associated DeFi or other tokens plausible.
> 
> I have been watching cryptocurrencies for many years. In general, it is often not the end user who will win here, but the initial issuers and platform operators. Price manipulation in this unregulated market is hardly controllable and legally often not even punishable. So quite crucially, the ordinary outsiders and average Joes are almost always at an informational disadvantage and prone to lose money.
> 
> ...





Hadrondrift said:


> I did a google, OP is also CEO of the platform CreatStep (pdf), which has tried its hand at a DeFi token (SCP) and are just creating another one. Don't get me wrong, nothing really wrong with that! But quite often in the crypto world such platforms function as a hype train and are created just to make artificially inflated prices of associated DeFi or other tokens plausible.
> 
> I have been watching cryptocurrencies for many years. In general, it is often not the end user who will win here, but the initial issuers and platform operators. Price manipulation in this unregulated market is hardly controllable and legally often not even punishable. So quite crucially, the ordinary outsiders and average Joes are almost always at an informational disadvantage and prone to lose money.
> 
> ...


Shame you quoted me like I’m somehow defending the OP  - otherwise: very solid post. Thanks!


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## Arturas Saskinas (Jul 9, 2022)

Brasart said:


> I mean it's not hard to smell OP's scam from miles away, his company virtually doesn't exist:
> 
> • There's literally 0 engagement anywhere
> • Most socials are dead and return dead links
> ...


Sure.

There are always envy people who hate those who are actually putting all the efforts and creating inovations.

If you think it is easy to create the platform like CREATSTEP, let’s try to develop anything close to that and then we will speak.

We are in final development state right now and that is nothing wrong that we are not in public yet.

Regarding the name and logo. I own the trademark in US, Europe and Asia and it’s my personal choice how and where I am using it.

It is always beter to create and be criticized than don’t and criticize others.

Anyway, no bad fellings. I saw much more than that to get in to the space where I am now. I still respect your opinion, that is nothing wrong with it.

Best


----------



## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

Markrs said:


> Any one can see and access the link, but the link text is linked to your name, that is all you get, no rights to the music, no ownership, no monetisation, excerpt for the ability to sell the link text. Where the file is held can be removed as you don't own the storage of the file. You own a text link to a file that could be removed at any time.





Markrs said:


> Another way to look at it is, I add a file to Dropbox and create a public link to it. I then create a spreadsheet and in one column I add the link and in another column I add the purchases name. This spreadsheet is then viewable by anyone including the link to the Dropbox file. All you have paid for is your name next to that link in a spreadsheet. You have bought nothing else.


But having one's name linked to something IS something, for some people. However, doesn't the very fact that I can sell something mean that in some sense I have to own it?

Anyway, I decided to re-listen to the podcast I mentioned. Wanted to work out why my notions about NFT were so at odds with yours. If you're not particularly interested in the rest of the podcast, their pertinent section starts at 47:45. 




In the case of BT's 'Metaverse', he not only created a bespoke loop for each of the 11 songs (I think they were sold as 11 separate NFT), but each came with its own physical sculpture that was shipped to the buyers. He also gives another example that demonstrates that there is was, and presumably still is, no reason why an NFT need default to the lowest-common-denominator of a name on a spreadsheet, as a weak association "to a file that could be removed at any time.". 




Markrs said:


> Also remember that there are 1000s of different blockchains so the creator of the NFT can sell that same link text on another Blockchain so even that is not necessarily unique or exclusive, as it is only exclusive on a specific Blockchain.


I can't remember what I don't know 

I know nothing of blockchains, bitcoin and evidently very little about NFT. But from the very little i have gleaned from this conversation, I think that viewed from a lens of 'get rich quick schemes, perhaps it does seem to offer nothing of value. And this maybe the route many are taking with it. However, there seems to be absolutely no reason why artists can't offer something truly worthy and absolutely unique, in which case perhaps your criticism might be better aimed at the artists themselves rather than the concept of NFT as a whole.

Anyway, it's somewhat interesting to have a discussion about the non-unique 'ownership' of non-physical items, on a forum whose members regularly spend hundreds of dollars on non-unique, non-physical products that we don't own (We only have a license to use) and in most cases cannot sell


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## pinki (Jul 9, 2022)

Come on folks, the crypto pyramid scam is over….


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## FinGael (Jul 9, 2022)

Arturas Saskinas said:


> Sure.
> 
> There are always envy people who hate those who are actually putting all the efforts and creating inovations.
> 
> ...


Hmm. Have you given any thought to where you are? This forum, considering the amount of creativity, skill, passion and knowledge gathered here, might not be the best place to start blaming people of not putting the effort.

Just saying. All the best.


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

Hadrondrift said:


> Buyers don't want the useless virtual land, don't want the stupid monkey, don't want the music. They just want to have something they think they can sell later to a greater fool for profit. For me this devalues the music, robs it of any artistic aspect and makes itself not also, but _only_ a commodity.


Again, this seems to be referring to a situation that has occurred, but that seems to be somewhat of a perversion of the original intent. Just because ebay has become associated with console scalping and scams doesn't mean that having places on the internet for people to sell items they no longer need is a bad idea. Don't blame the overall ideas/system for the behaviour of those who are looking for nothing else but ways to exploit.

There is no reason why artists cannot imbue unique art offerings with great value (Not necessarily monetary) for legitimate fans.


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## ckeddf (Jul 9, 2022)

I wouldn’t care if it weren’t for the amount of energy and resources consumed by this.


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## Piotrek K. (Jul 9, 2022)

Drama zone in 10, 9, 8... 



Arturas Saskinas said:


> I posted it as an opportunity. Ir is completely easy to get in to this train at the moment and create a trend of quality Music NFTs and don’t let anyone who don’t even understand what the composition is to rule the market since its start


There is one detail that you ommit. There is no train. We can buy tickets, sure, but the train will not arrive. Crypto "currency" is ponzi scheme with minus value (every single transaction needs tons of energy). NFT is nothing else than selling links (I'm not sure if at it's core it is usable for actual copyright management). Block chain is high energy consuming tech that solves 0 problems (decentralization my ass) and adds more (basic one - people were unable to buy graphic cards).


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## doctoremmet (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> There is no reason why artists cannot imbue unique art offerings with great value (Not necessarily monetary) for legitimate fans.


Noone’s denying that. But do you really think that’s the purpose of the OP? No, you don’t.


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## Nashi_VI (Jul 9, 2022)

The real question is......do i just sit back and enjoy the NFT deserved hate, do i click on Ignore thread, or do i just wait for it to be relegated into the Drama zone forever?.......
Some things keep me up at night....


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## Hadrondrift (Jul 9, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> like I’m somehow defending the OP


I didn't think you defended him, I'm not even sure there's anything to directly attack or defend here. Have seen way worse NFT shilling than what @Arturas Saskinas writes here. Perhaps it's more about creating awareness of how this should be classified.



el-bo said:


> Don't blame the overall ideas/system for the behaviour of those who are looking for nothing else but ways to exploit.


I'm basically with you there.

Bittorrent, for example, has always been denounced as a copyright infringement technology, yet it is an excellent way of load balancing. I have always defended this technology. In the meantime it is used by Microsoft in Windows, for example (Update Delivery Optimization). As far as I know, even VSL uses it for the distribution of their libraries, and probably other manufacturers too.

In the vast majority of cases, however, NFTs can currently only be observed in contexts that are clearly about the getting rich quick scheme. Maybe that will change in the long run.


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

Hadrondrift said:


> I'm basically with you there.
> 
> Bittorrent, for example, has always been denounced as a copyright infringement technology, yet it is an excellent way of load balancing. I have always defended this technology. In the meantime it is used by Microsoft in Windows, for example. As far as I know, even VSL uses it for the distribution of their libraries, and probably other manufacturers too.
> 
> In the vast majority of cases, however, NFTs can currently be observed in contexts that are clearly about the getting rich quick scheme. Maybe that will change in the long run.


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## Jdiggity1 (Jul 9, 2022)

You'd think from some of these responses that the OP legitimately was trying to con people, or posted with criminal intent.

This isn't the first thread regarding NFTs, nor will it be the last.
Members don't deserve to have an angry mob pile on top of them simply because they shared something you disagree with.

I get that it's a "hot topic" at the moment that we like to pretend we're savvy about, but in future, when another thread about NFTs starts up (which it will), consider that you don't _actually _have to let everyone know how much you hate them.
These threads go off the rails way too quickly, and it's not the OP that does it.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jul 9, 2022)

Jdiggity1 said:


> You'd think from some of these responses that the OP legitimately was trying to con people, or posted with criminal intent.
> 
> This isn't the first thread regarding NFTs, nor will it be the last.
> Members don't deserve to have an angry mob pile on top of them simply because they shared something you disagree with.
> ...


Adding to this, remember we have the option of clicking “Ignore thread” if we find a particular thread / subject gets on our nerves.


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## ssnowe (Jul 9, 2022)

Send me your money, the more the better, I promise to spend your money on me, because I deserve it, if you send me all of your money I will send you a coupon for a short (very short) pamphlet describing the secrets of my success, tell your friends to send me their money too, because, again, I deserve it.

Thank you, have a nice day, and remember, send me your money.


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## Duncan Krummel (Jul 9, 2022)

Jdiggity1 said:


> You'd think from some of these responses that the OP legitimately was trying to con people, or posted with criminal intent.


Right, I think most of us - myself included - pretty much agree that this IS what is happening. I think it’s worth the moderators, yourself included, taking a stronger look at this, since NFTs are a hot button issue for exactly the reasons stated in this thread; they pose a serious danger to those who engage with them honestly AND they are contributing to an increasingly large, negative environmental impact. Ignoring the thread isn’t enough.


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

Duncan Krummel said:


> Right, I think most of us - myself included - pretty much agree that this IS what is happening. I think it’s worth the moderators, yourself included, taking a stronger look at this, since NFTs are a hot button issue for exactly the reasons stated in this thread; they pose a serious danger to those who engage with them honestly AND they are contributing to an increasingly large, negative environmental impact. Ignoring the thread isn’t enough.


What is it about this particular case that suggests to you that the OP is trying to con other members?


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## Duncan Krummel (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> What is it about this particular case that suggests to you that the OP is trying to con other members?


I’m not trying to be rude, but it isn’t my responsibility to educate anyone here on the inherent dangers of this whole thing. You’d be better served researching for yourself, instead of asking for clarification on this forum. There are already excellent resources online, including YouTube, that discuss why NFTs and cryptocurrency are bad news.

Edit: it’s not “this specific case,” it’s all cases.


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

Duncan Krummel said:


> I’m not trying to be rude, but it isn’t my responsibility to educate anyone here on the inherent dangers of this whole thing. You’d be better served researching for yourself, instead of asking for clarification on this forum. There are already excellent resources online, including YouTube, that discuss why NFTs and cryptocurrency are bad news.
> 
> Edit: it’s not “this specific case,” it’s all cases.


My mistake! I thought that when you said, "I think most of us - myself included - pretty much agree that this IS what is happening" that you were specifically referring to the OP.

There're inherent dangers in all online-interactions, and more so when money is involved. Yet we try to shore ourselves up, as best we can, against them. Now you've edited your post and seem to make the claim that all NFT's are cons, you're implying that the OP is definitely here to con and that there're no legitimate NFT transactions happening. In which case I'd say it behooves you to actually provide evidence for your claims (certainly, against the OP), rather than just a drive-by warning that the OP os trying to con everyone..."But it isn't my responsibility to educate anyone here".


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## Duncan Krummel (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> My mistake! I thought that when you said, "I think most of us - myself included - pretty much agree that this IS what is happening" that you were specifically referring to the OP.


Correct! I do believe this is what the OP is doing.


el-bo said:


> There're inherent dangers in all online-interactions, and more so when money is involved. Yet we try to shore ourselves up, as best we can, against them.


Yep, and as with all of these, the uninformed - usually the elderly, young, and poor - are at highest risk. So combating misinformation is a global responsibility. As is self-education.


el-bo said:


> Now you've edited your post and seem to make the claim that all NFT's are cons, you're implying that the OP is definitely here to con and that there're no legitimate NFT transactions happening.


I edited my post because I realized I hadn’t specifically responded to your question, nothing more. You’re correct in the assessments of my beliefs here, though.


el-bo said:


> In which case I'd say it behooves you to actually provide evidence for your claims (certainly, against the OP), rather than just a drive-by warning that the OP os trying to con everyone..."But it isn't my responsibility to educate anyone here".


Actually, it behooves YOU for me to provide explanation, since you need one. It’s a waste of time and energy for me when the information is so freely available, and far more coherent and complete, elsewhere on the internet.


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## creativeforge (Jul 9, 2022)

Personally - although I do understand the OP's attempts to address the reservations expressed by some (many) - it's the "funneling" narrative that leaves me lukewarm. 

I'm sure I don't understand the whole concept described either, but I think I cam discerm the language and rhetorical devices of a commercial announcement, whether used intentionally or not. If I buy a liecense to a library I could never resell, at least I have it to use for the purpose I purchased it. 

The NFTs sound like market speculation to me. Maybe geared toward "collectors" with disposable income. It could be tempting for people who have ample revenues assured and can afford to take risks. In the present economy and social changes, it does sound both tempting and dangerous, if that makes sense.

Maybe the OP found a way to monetize NFTs for himself? I just don't get what he's trying to achieve here except recruiting others to join his enterprise. Which there is nothing wrong with, per say. Unless there was something seriously off with the concept, and principles behind. Some suggesting it's more akin to a Ponzi scheme? Maybe more like I said "speculation" game that can keep you up at night and worried all day.


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

Duncan Krummel said:


> It’s a waste of time and energy for me when the information is so freely available, and far more coherent and complete, elsewhere on the internet.


You've essentially distilled your claim down to the position that all NFT are scams. Shouldn't be too hard to share the info that led you to that position. Certainly, if you think the OP is trying to scam VI-C members, perhaps you'll make it easier for the Mods to stop him doing so


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## Duncan Krummel (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> You've essentially distilled your claim down to the position that all NFT are scams. Shouldn't be too hard to share the info that led you to that position. Certainly, if you think the OP is trying to scam VI-C members, perhaps you'll make it easier for the Mods to stop him doing so


It would be very difficult, because it’s been a large amount of information from many different sources.

Let me ask you a different question; if I explained it to you and linked to relevant sources, would you even believe me? Why would you? I’m a stranger on the internet. I don’t expect my words to convince you, especially as you seem particularly keen on being contrarian. You also seem to believe I’ve dug myself in a hole with the burden of proof, but the availability of information out there actually puts the fallacy on your shoulders as an argument from ignorance.

Listen, you aren’t going to convince me, you aren’t going to ‘gotcha’ me, and you’re not going to belittle me, because I don’t care about your role in this. My message is to the moderators, not you. You’re just complaining about complaining.


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

Here is a Google search for "Are all NFt's a scam?"



are all nft's a scam - Google Search



Some results of course suggest they all are. Most results suggest that there're certain scams within the world of NFT that can be avoided.


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## Duncan Krummel (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> Here is a Google search for "Are all NFt's a scam?"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Google searches don’t qualify as research. Not my opinion, general consensus and understanding. You need to investigate properly.


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## creativeforge (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> You've essentially distilled your claim down to the position that all NFT are scams. Shouldn't be too hard to share the info that led you to that position. Certainly, if you think the OP is trying to scam VI-C members, perhaps you'll make it easier for the Mods to stop him doing so


THIS. ▲


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## creativeforge (Jul 9, 2022)

Duncan Krummel said:


> Google searches don’t qualify as research. Not my opinion, general consensus and understanding. You need to investigate properly.


If not Google (or search engines leading to proper content), how did you research properly?


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## pinki (Jul 9, 2022)

When I dipped my toe into this world this year, I did not realise that ALL cyrpto currencies and NFTs are absolutely ponzi schemes.

That is the information I did not have. I very nearly, because, well, I'm not too clever with money, put my life savings in to crypto. Then someone educated me and told me the facts: it's a massive scam..all of it.

I thank that person because I would have lost my life's savings if they had not educated me...


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## Duncan Krummel (Jul 9, 2022)

creativeforge said:


> If not Google (or search engines leading to proper content), how did you research properly?


Let me clarify, since you raise a good point. Google searches themselves are not research. Even reading articles off of a Google search isn’t research. Anyone can write an article, and it stands to reason - and is anecdotally verifiable - that the people who stand to gain the most from writing positive articles are the ones doing most of the writing.

Research the sources of these articles, find research done by ecologists (a point many keep ignoring as if their life didn’t depend on the survival of the planet), economists, and other scientists. WIRED magazine doesn’t count, for instance; their linked sources MIGHT.


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

Duncan Krummel said:


> It would be very difficult, because it’s been a large amount of information from many different sources.


If all NFT were indeed a scam, it would be very easy to find proof/evidence



Duncan Krummel said:


> Let me ask you a different question; if I explained it to you and linked to relevant sources, would you even believe me? Why would you? I’m a stranger on the internet. I don’t expect my words to convince you, especially as you seem particularly keen on being contrarian. You also seem to believe I’ve dug myself in a hole with the burden of proof, but the availability of information out there actually puts the fallacy on your shoulders as an argument from ignorance.


I've asked you for evidence of your claim that all NFT are scams, and that by extension/inclusion the OP is trying to scam other people. If you can provide me with evidence that backed up your claims, why wouldn't believe you?

I don't believe you've dug any hole, 'cause I'm not interested in winning any argument. I just want to understand the truth of the situation, so have asked you for evidence.



Duncan Krummel said:


> Listen, you aren’t going to convince me, you aren’t going to ‘gotcha’ me, and you’re not going to belittle me, because I don’t care about your role in this. My message is to the moderators, not you. You’re just complaining about complaining.


Not trying to convince or "gotcha" anybody. I've made no secret (Im assuming you've read the thread) that I'm almost completely ignorant with regard to this. But I've just not seen anything presented so far that backs the notion that all NFT are scams.

And no, I'm not complaining about complaining. I'm complaining that people don't make absolute claims without absolute proof. Not too hard to understand, really.


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## creativeforge (Jul 9, 2022)

Duncan Krummel said:


> Let me clarify, since you raise a good point. Google searches themselves are not research. Even reading articles off of a Google search isn’t research. Anyone can write an article, and it stands to reason - and is anecdotally verifiable - that the people who stand to gain the most from writing positive articles are the ones doing most of the writing.
> 
> Research the sources of these articles, find research done by ecologists (a point many keep ignoring as if their life didn’t depend on the survival of the planet), economists, and other scientists. WIRED magazine doesn’t count, for instance; their linked sources MIGHT.


I didn't know people use search engine *results* as *research?* Like, reading the first words of the result and that's it? Withouth clicking links and actually reading? I never heard that before. That would be pretty embryonic, even, shallow and not count as research. 

I don't know any other way to do research than to follow sources and read these, or find someone who can break it down for me, and filter out the noise of self-promotion or ideology. You got to at least read a few paragraphs, and cross-reference, hold different perspectives in tension and try to land on something concrete through discernment, challenge and deduction.


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

Duncan Krummel said:


> Google searches don’t qualify as research. Not my opinion, general consensus and understanding. You need to investigate properly.


Not saying they qualified as research, but it's a place to start. 

I don't need to investigate anything. You're making an absolute claim, which presumes you've investigated and found absolute evidence. Just share it with me, us...the Mods, and save us all the trouble


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## NoamL (Jul 9, 2022)

Musicians already have the copyright system.

*"But blockchain is immutable, trustless, decentralized, and unforgeable!"*

Can you give me 1 example of when copyright records were falsified, erased, forged, etc by the US Copyright Office?


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## Arturas Saskinas (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> You've essentially distilled your claim down to the position that all NFT are scams. Shouldn't be too hard to share the info that led you to that position. Certainly, if you think the OP is trying to scam VI-C members, perhaps you'll make it easier for the Mods to stop him doing so


I am here not offering to buy anything, but to create. That is a big difference. I never ever try to scam the forum where I grew and learned a lot.

It is the space of creatives. Even Hans Zimmer is in this forum and many of many great composers. 

What I am trying to achieve is to spread the word about the idea that music NFTs should be created by top talents who are living in this forum and not by programmers who has no clue what creative arts are at all - what happened in simple NFT space since very beginning. 

Don’t take me wrong. I just shared an example that there is open doors to create music NFTs now - it happened only a week ago. Every one can get onto the the largest centralized exchange In the market as a creator. 
There is no way I even could scam anyone here. As I said I am a simple man who follows the technology and just giving a call for those who are interested minting their own NFTs - nothing more than that.

🤍


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## pinki (Jul 9, 2022)

@el-bo I think you enjoy the debate.. You enjoy the Trickster role eh?

Thing is, this is a serious matter and if you do indeed "know nothing about it" as you claim, I find your position somewhat ...disingenuous.


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## NoamL (Jul 9, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> There just aren’t many perks or benefits to owning NFTs, that’s all. Except for stuff like swords and items like that in games that could be bought and sold between gamers via NFTs, for reasonable prices instead of being “locked in” inside of a game’s economy, governed by a publisher


If publishers wanted to have items that are transferrable between games/virtual worlds they could always do so by creating a database that would be either under the control of 1 publisher or a consortium of publishers. As usual the 'advantages' of a blockchain over a database (decentralized, trustless, public, unforgeable) are of no advantage here. It doesn't matter how trustless and unforgeably unique your virtual sword is, you still can't use it in a game unless a publisher decides they're going to implement it as an item in their game.

As for why publishers don't allow trans-game items and put limits on the tradability of in-game items, it's a combination of interests. They want to control the in-game economy to preserve the balance between offering a "Free play" and "pay 2 win" experience to different classes of players.


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## doctoremmet (Jul 9, 2022)

I would like OP to step in and explain to us how exactly we can make thousands and thousands of dollars. Using his platform or others’. 

And also to explain to us what exactly explains the motives for people who buy those NFTs: what is the intrinsic value for them to pay a considerable chunk of money to basically own a link to a digital copy of a piece of music. 

Are there any value drivers OTHER than mere speculative ones? Can I offer buyers of my NFTs something in terms of unique ownership properties, that actually imply scarcity, uniqueness or monetization opportunities?

These are not disses but sincere questions that would need an answer to benefit all of us in terms of “research”. 

One complaint, and I know people will hate me for it, but in all honesty I find the discourse on here really tiresome sometimes, when people start demanding “research”, “evidence” etcetera. I agree that nuanced posts are always preferable. I agree rhat over-generalizations make no sense. But -> There are absolutely some red flags in OP’s first post that trigger serious and logical feelings of “okay, this is a VAGUE post, better be careful”. Does that warrant some of the unfriendliness? Maybe not. But let’s be honest here, all things crypto including ICOs, NFTs etcetera have a high “when Lambo?” ratio. That’s hardly news. If politics is too sensitive a topic for this forum, better brace yourself if you expect more of these kinds of posts, or make a dedicated forum for it. 

@el-bo I’ve tried to get you out of your “contrarian by default mode” by asking you a couple of genuine questions. But like you I’ve also turned 50 and also give even less fucks than before, so you’re excused haha. Be as contrarian as you like! But promise me to act cautiously when entering the NFT market. One last remark, comparing NFTs with acquiring licenses to samples (yes, they’re expensive and yes this crowd does spend a lot on those, don’t they?) isn’t really a good argument for… whatever you think you’re arguing. You see: licensed samples at least allow us to create music. Key word: UTILITY. Sorry, I’m an economist.

Mods, since this always seems to happen to my post, no matter how nuanced, well worded etc. I try to make them; good luck! And I fully expect this post to get deleted 

Cheers! And off to the Pacific Strings thread I go. ❤️ Love y’all!


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## chrisav (Jul 9, 2022)

Here's some pretty well-researched, entertaining and all-around worthwhile videos on the whole NFT business that I personally found elucidating a while back:


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## NoamL (Jul 9, 2022)

I think the biggest question to answer is simply, 

"What is the problem to which this is a good solution?"


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## Duncan Krummel (Jul 9, 2022)

I’m not interested in


el-bo said:


> If all NFT were indeed a scam, it would be very easy to find proof/evidence


Why? It’s not always easy because there is a large amount of propaganda involved that dilutes the information.


el-bo said:


> I've asked you for evidence of your claim that all NFT are scams, and that by extension/inclusion the OP is trying to scam other people. If you can provide me with evidence that backed up your claims, why wouldn't believe you?


Your demeanor in this thread doesn’t give me the impression you’d believe me. Also, I’m not the expert here. I’m warning others, and strongly advising the moderators to research this issue further, but I should not be a source for anyone here.


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## Duncan Krummel (Jul 9, 2022)

creativeforge said:


> I didn't know people use search engine *results* as *research?* Like, reading the first words of the result and that's it? Withouth clicking links and actually reading? I never heard that before. That would be pretty embryonic, even, shallow and not count as research.


Unfortunately, I think you’d be surprised. I recall a study showing that, at least here in the US, up to 70% of people just read headlines before sharing.


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## Fidelity (Jul 9, 2022)

🤦‍♂️


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

pinki said:


> @el-bo I think you enjoy the debate.. You enjoy the Trickster role eh?
> 
> Thing is, this is a serious matter and if you do indeed "know nothing about it" as you claim, I find your position somewhat ...disingenuous.


Not all interested in debate fo r it's own sake. no longer even watch debates for things that I have a very deep interest in. Debates are about scoring points and winning. I'm interested in getting to the truth, regardless of whether it's actually undermines a position that I currently hold. It's the reason why even within already marginalised communities, I've managed to alienate myself further because I won't 'toe the line' if the truth contradicts such a position.

And I can assure you that I take this whole thing vey seriously. People are coming into this thread swinging their metaphorical dicks around, and making absolute claims without providing absolute evidence. I need not have any domain knowledge within this area, to suggest that's unacceptable.


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## doctoremmet (Jul 9, 2022)

NoamL said:


> If publishers wanted to have items that are transferrable between games/virtual worlds they could always do so by creating a database that would be either under the control of 1 publisher or a consortium of publishers. As usual the 'advantages' of a blockchain over a database (decentralized, trustless, public, unforgeable) are of no advantage here. It doesn't matter how trustless and unforgeably unique your virtual sword is, you still can't use it in a game unless a publisher decides they're going to implement it as an item in their game.
> 
> As for why publishers don't allow trans-game items and put limits on the tradability of in-game items, it's a combination of interests. They want to control the in-game economy to preserve the balance between offering a "Free play" and "pay 2 win" experience to different classes of players.


Great post and I agree. I was merely trying to state that an NFT might be a great way to facilitate such trading, in a world where publishers would be actually looking for something beneficial to their users, rather than something they get to control and further monetize. So I had a use case in mind that an NFT might be a proper solution for, which likely does not exist in real life - thanks for the clarification!


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## Duncan Krummel (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> I'm interested in getting to the truth, regardless of whether it's actually undermines a position that I currently hold.


A person interested in the truth won’t seek answers on an unrelated forum, but research for themselves. Just saying.


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## doctoremmet (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> Not all interested in debate fo r it's own sake. no longer even watch debates for things that I have a very deep interest in. Debates are about scoring points and winning. I'm interested in getting to the truth, regardless of whether it's actually undermines a position that I currently hold. It's the reason why even within already marginalised communities, I've managed to alienate myself further because I won't 'toe the line' if the truth contradicts such a position.
> 
> And I can assure you that I take this whole thing vey seriously. People are coming into this thread swinging their metaphorical dicks around, and making absolute claims without providing absolute evidence. I need not have any domain knowledge within this area, to suggest that's unacceptable.


I agree that swinging dicks around is unacceptable. I hope I didn’t do that in your opinion - I only entered the debate when you asked what might have triggered the “ire” of some. Since I figured I had a bit of understanding for their ire, although I personally didn’t have much ire, I chose to try and answer that question.

What I somehow miss in the way you ask questions and formulate answers in this debate, is any sense that you may also get there is some actual truth in what people say, whose behaviour may not necessarily be proper. Also, you ask a question, receive an answer, but never acknowledge or appreciate people answering that question. That makes it that a feeling starts to develop in me that you have fun in playing the “contrarian part” deliberately. I now think you aren’t really interested in what people have to say on the subject, but rather want to make a point. If that point is: swinging dicks and unreasonable mad reactions are inappropriate, I’m pretty much on the same page with you. I am also in agreement that there MIGHT be useful opportunities to be had for musicians using NFTs, namely: speculative ones and “romantic” ones. But I am also fully confident in my assessment of the OP’s first post: he does not explain what value creation process underlies the NFTs, that makes them worth thousands and thousands (his words). Or the programmers step in and make millions with single note compositions. Is anyone taking statements like that seriously? Are you?

Now I’m really off to the Pacific Strings thread hehe. Cheers.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 9, 2022)

Arturas Saskinas said:


> Hello folks! Didn’t posted in VI for a while, had a long road reaching the start of my collaborations with Oscar, Grammy, Emmy winning creators.


Maybe if you worked on your grammar, you’d at least have an ounce of credibility. Your post has scam written all over it.


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2022)

Duncan Krummel said:


> Your demeanor in this thread doesn’t give me the impression you’d believe me.


I've already told you that I'm interested in the truth. Believe it or don't believe it. 

I have no prior knowledge of or allegiance to the OP, although I do have an intuition (and certainly a hope) that his intentions are honourable. I've also provided some examples of people who seem to have gone into NFT with the intention of offering value and worth to their fans.

However, neither of these positions are jills I'm even slightly interested in dying on. So if you have evidence to support your claim that all NFT are scams (which would include both the OP, BT and anyone else who may have had good intentions), then I've already said I'll be happy to see it.




Duncan Krummel said:


> Also, I’m not the expert here.


You don't need to be. Just support your claims with evidence.


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## Duncan Krummel (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> You don't need to be. Just support your claims with evidence.


As I’ve told you, you’re arguing from ignorance. I can’t make you research properly, and I’m not going to do your homework for you. End of discussion there.


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## pinki (Jul 9, 2022)

I guess each individual can choose what they want to believe about the basic facts: NFT's and Cryptos are ponzi schemes, plain and simple. This is indisputable. (and no @el-bo I'm not going to "provide you evidence" on that)

So each can choose how they feel about that and how they act. They can see it as a scam or not.

Lots and lots of people own Bitcoin, so lots of people feel comfortable with being part of a ponzi scheme. I do not.

Each to their own I guess...but I do think a lot of gullible and ill-informed people are loosing a lot of money (very nearly me!)


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## creativeforge (Jul 9, 2022)

Duncan Krummel said:


> Unfortunately, I think you’d be surprised. I recall a study showing that, at least here in the US, up to 70% of people just read headlines before sharing.


There is a difference between headlines and Google search results, imho. One has to do woth news from media sites or social media (headlines), the other has to do with a results page from search engines. I certainly don't doubt a lot of people do jump to conclusion based on political oe religious bias, but I doubt 70% of Americans use Google results pages to make their case. IMHO.


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## Duncan Krummel (Jul 9, 2022)

creativeforge said:


> Thered is a difference between headlines and Google search results, imho. One has to do woth news from media sites or social media (headlines), the other has to do with a results page from search engines. I certainly don't doubt a lot of people do jump to conclusion based on political oe religious bias, but I doubt 70% of Americans use Google results pages to make their case. IMHO.


Google search results _are_ headlines, though. I’d have to find the study again, but anecdotally the two are exactly the same, and often consumed the same way.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 9, 2022)

I’m selling an audio file NFT Dm7 chord, with the low D doubled between bass and celli. Played using a vintage Spitfire Sable string set (original, proof of payment). Sustained, molto-vibrato, last 8 seconds. WAV, 48Khz, 24bit. Summed in Logic Pro.
$ 24,999, wet
$ 22,999, dry


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## pinki (Jul 9, 2022)

Ned..I would buy the wet version but if it's Spitfire I guess I won't be able to re-sell it? What about a demo? Do you accept returns?


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jul 9, 2022)

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> I’m selling an audio file NFT Dm7 chord, with the low D doubled between bass and celli. Played using a vintage Spitfire Sable string set (original, proof of payment). Sustained, molto-vibrato, last 8 seconds. WAV, 48Khz, 24bit. Summed in Logic Pro.
> $ 24,999, wet
> $ 22,999, dry


More than $ 20,000 and then it’s not even played with a Legato patch. Pfff!


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 9, 2022)

el-bo said:


> You aren't "Just saying" anything. You are asserting that all NFT are scams, and therefore by extension the OP has created this thread with the intention to scam


Not to be a jerk here, but they are indeed scam (for lack of a better term). You need crypto to purchase an NFT, what des that tell you? Would you be confident drumming your life savings in to, say, Bitcoin? If not, there's your answer.


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## tressie5 (Jul 9, 2022)

I've linked to two sites related to this thread. The first one from TechTarget is titled "8 Ways To Avoid NFT Scams" and the 2nd from Business 2 Community is "How To Buy NFTs: The Ultimate Guide."









8 ways to avoid NFT scams


As NFTs continue to gain popularity, learn how to avoid NFT scams and keep these digital assets safe.




www.techtarget.com






https://www.business2community.com/nft/how-to-buy-an-nft


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## jcrosby (Jul 9, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Not to be a jerk here, but they are indeed scam (for lack of a better term). You need crypto to purchase an NFT, what des that tell you? Would you be confident drumming your life savings in to, say, Bitcoin? If not, there's your answer.


The other thing that *SCREAMS* scam is that you're supposed to contact them via Telegram, an app that's gained a reputation for being popular among hackers, and easily exploited for scams.

_"Just today I created a telegram group for those who want to start minting their music NFTs..."

"Fell free to contact me on Telegram group or in this forum - I am always active, except when I sleep"_









'Secure' app Telegram is fast becoming a haven for hackers - TechHQ


Cyberint & the Financial Times noticed a sharp uptick in activity involving hackers on Telegram channels, some of which have tens of thousands of members




techhq.com













The 11 Latest Telegram App Scams To Watch Out For | Aura


Scammers have flocked to Telegram in recent years. Here’s how to keep your personal information, crypto, and online accounts safe from Telegram app scams.




www.aura.com


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## Jdiggity1 (Jul 9, 2022)

Duncan Krummel said:


> Right, I think most of us - myself included - pretty much agree that this IS what is happening. I think it’s worth the moderators, yourself included, taking a stronger look at this, since NFTs are a hot button issue for exactly the reasons stated in this thread; they pose a serious danger to those who engage with them honestly AND they are contributing to an increasingly large, negative environmental impact. Ignoring the thread isn’t enough.


The moderators see "scams" all the time on this forum, and act accordingly. (Most of it happens in the classifieds section so it goes unnoticed). The OP is not asking anybody to pay them money, buy a product, sign up for a newsletter, or to act in any way at all. Sure, they've invited you to a telegram chat group, but they've also invited you to keep your engagements on this forum if you so please.
However misguided they might be on the subject, there is more sincerity in their post than there is in a marketing blurb or a sample library review containing referral links.

Regardless of how damaging the NFT industry might be as a whole, the OP's post in and of itself does not pose a danger to anybody. If somebody decides to follow up with the OP and _then _start investing themselves into that industry more, that's up to them, just as it is for anybody choosing to get sucked into the financial wormhole that is "pursuing a career/hobby in music".

We have high profile and well-respected musicians like Junkie XL, Imogen Heap, Jacob Collier, Quincy Jones, Steve Aoki, Kings Of Leon, The Allman Brothers, Snoop Dogg, Aphex Twin, Calvin Harris, DeadMau5, Dolly Parton...... (it's a long list) that have all contributed to the NFT "machine", either because they believe in it, or (let's be real, much more likely) they are cashing in while they can.
Now, I've seen the usual videos that get shared when this topic comes up, I'm aware of all that badness... but it's clearly a legitimate industry topic. Spotify still has its fair share of vocal opposition, and I can easily be swayed to see how it's detrimental and dangerous to the industry, too.
Cars aren't great for the planet either, apparently.

Anyway, I suppose my main point is: your beef is not with the OP.

As a _member_, yeah I wouldn't touch the NFT space with a ten-foot pole either. And if somebody (foolishly) asked me for my opinion I'd say "stay away".
But as a _moderator_, I am not really here to defend or accuse the topic that is brought up, my focus is on maintaining a respectable tone.


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## pinki (Jul 9, 2022)

Jdiggity1 said:


> Regardless of how damaging the NFT industry might be as a whole, the OP's post in and of itself does not pose a danger to anybody. If somebody decides to follow up with the OP and _then _start investing themselves into that industry more, that's up to them, just as it is for anybody choosing to get sucked into the financial wormhole that is "pursuing a career/hobby in music".


Well the analogy is humorous... but not really legitimate.

The issue is about people being 'duped' in to parting with their money in good faith having been told that it's safe and and they will get their money back with interest. It's highly unlikely and if they do, it WILL be at someone else's expense.

It is up to governments to act to stop these pyramid schemes and indeed they are doing so, but I do think when someone posts here about them it's OK to call it out for what it is..a ponzi scheme plain and simple.


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## Arturas Saskinas (Jul 9, 2022)

There was never mentioned any intention of me to sell anything. And I did not suggested to buy anything in my topic - I suggested to CREATE.

Lets continue hating and looking for for scam evidence. To be honest I enjoy every single opinion - it lets me create the global picture of what happening in the minds of talented people. Every single opinion provided and which will be provided further is very much appreciated.

I saw few comments asking for more explanation and I will be more than happy to answer once I wake up. It’s been a long day and I feel extremely exhausted for today.

P.s. Thanks everyone. You made my day 🤩


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## pinki (Jul 9, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> The other thing that *SCREAMS* scam is that you're supposed to contact them via Telegram, an app that's gained a reputation for being popular among hackers, and easily exploited for scams.


Telegram is not a reason to point a finger..my mobile phone company has a Telegram group alongside many perfectly normal groups and businesses and some dodgy one's too for sure, but that doesn't mean Telegram per se is a reason to accuse.


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## NoamL (Jul 9, 2022)

Arturas Saskinas said:


> I did not suggested to buy anything in my topic - I suggested to CREATE.


You didn't suggest either buy or create, you suggested people should *MINT* nft's

that is the red flag word. You can't sell an NFT without minting it, you can't mint an NFT without a "minting fee", and a minting fee has to be paid in magic beans. The business model is crypto holders convincing people they "need" to buy crypto.

"This is not a promotion and I am not selling anything," not directly, sure.


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## Duncan Krummel (Jul 9, 2022)

@Jdiggity1 Yeah, we’re going to disagree here. On both the issue and the role of the moderator here. That’s fine, but we’re in disagreement about the core of it, and that’s a red flag for ME, as a forum user, if I’m being perfectly transparent.

That sounds more self-centered and ultimatum-y than I like, but I don’t think I can articulate it better than that. Cheers.


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## timprebble (Jul 9, 2022)

Arturas Saskinas said:


> There is still a huge chance to rule this market for ones who actually creates real music art......
> Better kill your EGOs and become ones who owns this place. I even didn’t started to talk about metaverse where NfTs will have huge future.



Are you on the Bolivian marching powder or something? Listen to yourself.

You want to (a) "rule this market" and (b) claim you are the "ones who actually creates real music art" But even the attempt at negging seems like a complete contradiction in terms: "kill your EGOs and become ones who owns this place" - lol


Tech bros artificially inflating the "value" of sea monkeys, which have no actual value and even worse can be easily devalued, or stolen. It's a gold rush, except there is no gold.









NFT Scams in 2022 [The Most Common Scams]


The NFT frenzy has attracted all sorts of scams. Discover five of the most common NFT scams and how you can protect your digital assets.




www.cloudwards.net


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## jcrosby (Jul 9, 2022)

pinki said:


> Telegram is not a reason to point a finger..my mobile phone company has a Telegram group alongside many perfectly normal groups and businesses and some dodgy one's too for sure, but that doesn't mean Telegram per se is a reason to accuse.


Right, but given that replies from the sender can potentially be set to self-destruct after being opened, leaving few-to-no breadcrumbs behind, that IMO is a pretty big red flag when you factor everything else in. It's like someone offering to set up and manage a retirement account for you, then directing you to what's app to set the whole thing up.


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## Arbee (Jul 9, 2022)

Can we all agree that if new members suddenly start appearing in this thread with stories like "I really don't know what you guys are talking about, I invested and wow, you really are missing out on a great opportunity!", that we ask for it to be taken down? 

We're already doing the OP a great service by keeping this on the recent threads list


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## Mike Greene (Jul 9, 2022)

There are a lot of repetitive posts here, with the same voices posting again and again. So in the interest of allowing other people to participate before a thread gets hopelessly long:

New Rule - If you’ve posted 10 times in this thread, then please refrain from posting further. Thanks.


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## Hadrondrift (Jul 10, 2022)

Because the OP suggests minting the NFTs at Binance, the largest centralized exchange in the world: Binance is not necessarily one of the good guys. In fact, citizens of the US are prohibited from using the regular Binance platform.

When using such central exchanges, you are subject to their fee structures and other influences. You must be careful not to be financially exploited out of ignorance or inattention. But, hey, there are ≈1500 alternatives, including decentralized platforms, if you can't resist to try your luck. But beware, these are often almost ridiculously complicated.

There is a close relationship between NFTs and cryptocurrencies traded on these exchanges: NFTs are usually bought and sold with cryptocurrencies, primarily ETH. Because these cryptocurrencies are highly volatile, they are rather unsuitable as a means of payment. Someone who cheers: »I just sold an ape NFT for 100 bucks!«, usually received $100 worth of ETH. However, this ETH can be worth much less just a week later. Of course, it can also be worth more. So you have to hit more than you lose. Gambling, basically.

ETH has lost 70% of its value since the end of 2021. Everyone who entered crypto after Q2 2021 and didn't sell is presumably in the red, even big investors. Because of these large price drops across the board in the last few months, the crypto world is currently in a liquidity crisis. People sell crypto, want to withdraw money, but some companies don't have that money available, because they used deposits speculatively and lent them out. Some companies have insolvency proceedings underway, some have blocked all withdrawals (Celsius stands out here).

Due to this precarious situation, the crypto industry is currently trying everything possible to suck fresh money into the market. A further escalating bank run must be prevented. Binance opened their platform for minting NFTs just a few days ago. Perhaps not coincidentally.

So if you think NFTs have a rosy future, it might be better to watch the whole thing from the sidelines for now. Except for a few hardcore gamblers, the masses are probably reluctant to throw their money into a highly speculative NFT and crypto space in the next few months or even 1 to 2 years. The global economic situation does not invite this either.

Coming to a conclusion, from my point of view, crypto in general and NFTs in particular are not an investment, no guaranteed source of income, but a gamble, made worse by the fact that the game is rigged. Since this casino is almost unregulated, there are scams and frauds on every corner. The crypto space is often given a clean facade in some media that is not justified on the inside.

Many who believe that all they have to do now is find a fool who will buy something from them at astronomically high prices are unaware that someone may have already found them.


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## Brasart (Jul 10, 2022)

Very very (very) surprised by the answers of you mods, of course scam schemes are not _"hey, click on this link to get rich instantly"_ anymore.

The way they work is to make you think they're not here to sell you a product; it's the same for every single scam, be it trading, crypto, property investment... 

_"Hey, there's this new method a winning a LOT of money that a lot of people don't know about, I'm already rich so I'm just here to help people become like me, here's a free guide to help you get started, and if you want to get serious about it just don't forget to come back to me_!"

Seems familiar? That's literally how the OP has structured his first post.
*=>* I'm an established guy in the industry.
*=>* Wow, a new method to become rich has just arrived, just want to share it with fellow musicians to help them out!
*=>* Don't hesitate to reach out to me on private channels if you need some help getting started, just want to help 

Meanwhile this guy has:
*=>* A company that's been online for 4-5 years with what look to be 0 ROI
*=>* Selling NFTs of his old music (while talking about CREATING heh) under his company branding that says _"Unique music NFT collection from international award winning composer."_
*=>* Investment in NFTs which doesn't take off

Well well what curious timing to be thinking of his fellow composers!
@Jdiggity1 I think you should consider that people can fall easily in scams like this, and not everyone is educated on what dangerous scams can look like.


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## wunderflo (Jul 10, 2022)

Hadrondrift said:


> So if you think NFTs have a rosy future, it might be better to watch the whole thing from the sidelines for now. Except for a few hardcore gamblers, the masses are probably reluctant to throw their money into a highly speculative NFT and crypto space in the next few months or even 1 to 2 years. The global economic situation does not invite this either.
> 
> Coming to a conclusion, from my point of view, crypto in general and NFTs in particular are not an investment, no guaranteed source of income, but a gamble, made worse by the fact that the game is rigged. Since this casino is almost unregulated, there are scams and frauds on every corner. The crypto space is often given a clean facade in some media that is not justified on the inside.
> 
> Many who believe that all they have to do now is find a fool who will buy something from them at astronomically high prices are unaware that someone may have already found them.


all true and very well worded. 

However, here's my take on it: Crypto and NFTs might be gambling and a ponzi scheme, but I'd like to ask all the super aware critics on here, which alternative they have to offer. Putting your music on Spotify and hoping for streams? Well, then you at least aren't gambling, because your chance to lose money is 100%. Maybe invest in some ads to generate more listeners? Ok, now you paid Google or some social media platforms, paid the distributor, and created content for the streaming platforms. They all win, you lose. Morally, you are better off, because you at least only damaged yourself, but are your chances to earn money this way better than paying for the creation of a NFT or simply trying your luck with some crypto trading? I wouldn't be so sure. And from a moral standpoint, it's still better than speculating with goods that people actually need, such as water. 

Sure, cryptocurrencies or NFTs don't have any "inner/true value", but what's the value of gold, a mp3 file, a vinyl record or some painting on a canvas - even if it's done by Picasso? It's always defined by what people are willing to pay for. Thus, it can always be an object of speculation. And I'm quite sure there's a demand for owning purely virtual objects in a digital world that will most likely increase with the introduction of the metaverse. And the concept of "ownership" doesn't necessarily require to possess the original file or any type of exclusivity. A link to the file with your name attached to it can of course be some form of ownership. In case you own some property, you don't actually possess that piece of earth, but some paper that links your name to this property. And what's a stock? Does it mean you own the espresso machine of that company? No, it's just something virtual that links your name to a share of that company. It's all not so different.

Not talking about OP's "offer" here and I'm also not invested in any crypto or NFT stuff, nor am I an expert on this topic, but I always find it strange when people call things a "scam" just because it's all virtual, when similar concepts exist and are accepted in the analogue world and are a normal part of our economy (which of course you could consider flawed and reject altogether, but that's not really the case here, is it?). The times of trading tomatoes for an acoustic performance of your musical piece are long gone... except, you play very badly.


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## JC_ (Jul 10, 2022)

Really hate seeing such strong opinions as if this is the stock market bears vs bulls. At the heart of this we have what could be a potential source of revenue for artists in the future - what we have now is a market littered with sketchy ass people trying to take advantage of the hype. I don't know OP but I don't get any ill intentions from his post but rather excitement for a potential new way to sell music.


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## EanS (Jul 10, 2022)

It is a time where people want to have money, so they invent money out of nothing, in exchange for nothing.

"You just need a single gullible nimwit that buys it, and the rest will follow"

They called it Crypto

---------

There was a time where people wanted to have control on others, so they invented a set of imaginary beings out of nothing, in exchange for nothing.

"You just need a single gullible nimwit that buys it, and the rest will follow"

They called it Religion

(just don't buy it... otherwise history repeats 😐 )


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## NoamL (Jul 10, 2022)

wunderflo said:


> all true and very well worded.
> 
> However, here's my take on it: Crypto and NFTs might be gambling and a ponzi scheme, but I'd like to ask all the super aware critics on here, which alternative they have to offer. Putting your music on Spotify and hoping for streams? Well, then you at least aren't gambling, because your chance to lose money is 100%. Maybe invest in some ads to generate more listeners? Ok, now you paid Google or some social media platforms, paid the distributor, and created content for the streaming platforms. They all win, you lose. Morally, you are better off, because you at least only damaged yourself, but are your chances to earn money this way better than paying for the creation of a NFT or simply trying your luck with some crypto trading? I wouldn't be so sure. And from a moral standpoint, it's still better than speculating with goods that people actually need, such as water.
> 
> ...


The most interesting project I saw yet is the "NBA Topshots" which is collectible trading cards, officially endorsed by NBA, and "minted" as NFTs.

They went through a boom & bust already but if you look past the hype, it is STILL an interesting project because sports cards have been proven collectibles for decades and these ones are really flashy. They are e-cards so it's not just player portraits, but even short video clips of famous dunks. They have typical sports card rarities so you can collect common Kyrie Irving portrait cards or you can be the only person to own a "1 of 1" depicting Kyrie scoring a game winning point. It's pretty cool if you're into basketball and it's a logical evolution of the sports card concept.

The thing is, even here the supposed advantages of NFT are hard to make out. The NFT is not the card itself but a link to see/watch the card on the NBA's card website. So the argument that the NFT is immutable/eternal is hard to justify, it seems like the cards hold value only for as long as the NBA wants to keep hosting that website. And one of the arguments for NFTs is it creates a free and fair open market outside of the control of the initial publisher (as compared to, for example, the market for Magic The Gathering e-cards). But the vast majority of trading takes place on the market NBA hosts on their website, if that went away, volume would collapse (just like the centralized exchanges for new cryptocurrencies).

The cool thing about these cards is that they are hosted online and feature streaming video. Aka "web 2" features. Just like the cool thing about online music is high definition streaming, again, web2.

But it can all be done by centralized databases owned and controlled by the publisher, it doesn't need the NFT aspect. All the problems with the NBA cards are the same with music, you'd be selling an NFT of a link to a streaming website which is a bet that the streaming site stays online for years or decades.

It honestly seems like both musicians and customers would be better off with the musician selling the copyright plus a high definition copy of the music. And this already exists. Like you could have a bandcamp where you sell your album plus offers of transferable copyright to individual songs.

The thing is, I don't believe that music listeners are interested in buying song copyrights. They MAY be interested in having EXCLUSIVE copies of original songs - like a Taylor Swift song that was written just for you and nobody else in the world can listen to it. But for obvious reasons, these can't be e-goods. They have to be sold as physical media like that "1 of 1" Wu Tang record. Also, this market is of no use to starting artists. It's a way for already-celebrated artists to monetize their celebrity even harder.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jul 10, 2022)

NoamL said:


> ...You can't sell an NFT without minting it, you can't mint an NFT without a "minting fee", and a minting fee has to be paid in magic beans. The business model is crypto holders convincing people they "need" to buy crypto.


This is the crux of the issue.

NFTs exist to get people to buy crypto. That's it. That's the goal.

If you get enough people who think NFTs are worthwhile, they will exchange _real_ money for crypto to buy (or mint) NFTs. The price of ETH goes up and eventually you have crypto adoption all around - everyone has a crypto wallet.

But what are you buying? NFTs are not an asset. Crypto is not an asset. This stuff has literally zero value except what you can get from selling to the next person. In economics, this is called 'greater fool'. Google it


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## Crowe (Jul 10, 2022)

chrisav said:


> Fuck this on every single level


Gonna second this statement and be done with this shit.


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## chillbot (Jul 10, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> New Rule - If you’ve posted 10 times in this thread, then please refrain from posting further. Thanks.


As this is my first post in this thread I would like to sell my other 9 posts to anyone interested.

PM me, I will post anything you wish within reason, formatting extra. I accept paypal, crypto, NFTs, you name it.


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## Arturas Saskinas (Jul 10, 2022)

To be clear, I will forward it here as an answer to all the hate provided.

https://www.binance.com/en/blog/nft...hanging-the-music-industry-421499824684903380

Cheers


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## MarkusS (Jul 10, 2022)

A lot of posts compare NFTs to crypto and say it’s both worthless. While I agree that it’s comparable from a purely investment side, crypto does have a utility. If you want to engage in illegal activities it allows you to exchange money without being traceable by banks, the gouvernement or police. You buy crypto with “real” money then you exchange it somehow on the black online market against drugs, murder on commission, illegal weapons, whatever and the receiving end exchanges it back to “real” money. No one will see this exchange.

But if you don’t engage in illegal activities it hasn’t much use since you cannot buy any “normal stuff” with it.
People use it as an investment but as it could be seen recently it’s not a safe investment at all. It’s purely a bubble.

Now NFTs might work for you as many stated if you are very famous and you get someone with too much money to believe that what he is acquiring is somehow going to go up in value. But it is pure believe, speculation, thin air. I cannot see his work in another context. So for most people I doubt it has a real potential of income.


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## quietmind (Jul 10, 2022)

Having been scammed myself out of a life's savings a while back, I can say, similar to those recently losing everything in the crypto casino, I am gratified to see so many advocates of sanity and safety responding with warnings about the "offering" proposed on this thread. I deeply know the severe costs of being sucked into a ponzi scheme. I would submit that, although there is clearly adequate warning provided by such responses, even if there would be a mere possibility of someone taking up an offering like this and losing their shirt, then perhaps the nature of this thread should be more seriously evaluated. In the same way warnings are given here in the classified section. Buyer beware being made highly explicit could help in some way. Just a thought based on past pain personally experienced. Meanwhile, thanks for all the intelligent neigh-saying!


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## gsilbers (Jul 10, 2022)

chrisav said:


> Here's some pretty well-researched, entertaining and all-around worthwhile videos on the whole NFT business that I personally found elucidating a while back:



I came here to post this same video 



As usual with emergent or "new" stuff, there is a kernel of truth that gets blown out of proportion to gain financially. 

The idea woudnt be bad if for example each mp3 had an embedded nft tracking system sort of thing where no matter where the music lands in social media, or how short of a clip, it could be independently verified and royalties applied. So i couldnt use some random demo music and claim it as mine and upload it to royalty free sites for example. or facebook tiktok and netflix had verifiable data for views this ways and so on. PRO having better ways to track content playback across mediums instead of sampling data. and so on. anyone can claim and fudge numbers but with a ledger we can generate more transparency imo. 
Of course anyone who "wants" to do this just happens to love the idea of creating the underlying platform and coin to have some of that dough. 

Anyways.. as it stands now, NFT and crytpo are just scams. And any real world use is minimal and blown out of proportion to entice poeple to buy into it, which evolved into higher crypto prices.


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## gsilbers (Jul 10, 2022)

MarkusS said:


> A lot of posts compare NFTs to crypto and say it’s both worthless. While I agree that it’s comparable from a purely investment side, crypto does have a utility. If you want to engage in illegal activities it allows you to exchange money without being traceable by banks, the gouvernement or police. You buy crypto with “real” money then you exchange it somehow on the black online market against drugs, murder on commission, illegal weapons, whatever and the receiving end exchanges it back to “real” money. No one will see this exchange.
> 
> But if you don’t engage in illegal activities it hasn’t much use since you cannot buy any “normal stuff” with it.
> People use it as an investment but as it could be seen recently it’s not a safe investment at all. It’s purely a bubble.
> ...



I thought the whole thing with using crytpo to hide illigal stuff wasnt true 









Pipeline Investigation Upends Idea That Bitcoin Is Untraceable (Published 2021)


The F.B.I.’s recovery of Bitcoins paid in the Colonial Pipeline ransomware attack showed cryptocurrencies are not as hard to track as it might seem.




www.nytimes.com


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## Daren Audio (Jul 10, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> I thought the whole thing with using crytpo to hide illigal stuff wasnt true
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The notion that cryptos are not traceable is incorrect. The Feds have caught up with the tools necessary to track down anyone.







Feds caught this couple whole stole $3.1B in crypto (valued at $4.5B).








Feds seize $3.6B in stolen Bitcoin, arrest NYC couple in DOJ's largest crypto bust to date


Federal authorities seized $3.6 million in stolen Bitcoin and arrested a couple in Manhattan Tuesday in what’s considered the Justice Department’s largest financial cryptocurrency bust to date.




www.foxbusiness.com


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## Chris Schmidt (Jul 10, 2022)

MarkusS said:


> People use it as an investment but as it could be seen recently it’s not a safe investment at all


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## Brian2112 (Jul 10, 2022)

chillbot said:


> As this is my first post in this thread I would like to sell my other 9 posts to anyone interested.
> 
> PM me, I will post anything you wish within reason, formatting extra. I accept paypal, crypto, NFTs, you name it.


Damn it! You beat me to it. In light of your action, I felt desperate to cash in, so I bought the rights to Middle C from a guy named Tim. It was a pretty good deal too because I got a 2 for one. I also now own Gm7b5 so any of you fukers that use these owe me money. I’m saving up to buy the F#Locrian scale which is the most expensive item Tim has for sale. He says because it’s the rarest item.


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## gsilbers (Jul 11, 2022)

pinki said:


> When I dipped my toe into this world this year, I did not realise that ALL cyrpto currencies and NFTs are absolutely ponzi schemes.
> 
> That is the information I did not have. I very nearly, because, well, I'm not too clever with money, put my life savings in to crypto. Then someone educated me and told me the facts: it's a massive scam..all of it.
> 
> I thank that person because I would have lost my life's savings if they had not educated me...



Its amazing that it was so huge and widespread.. like it was a normal thing.


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## jcrosby (Jul 11, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> I came here to post this same video
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is pretty amazing. This filled in so many of the subtle gaps about crypto, NFTs, etc that were hard to wrap my head around... Thanks for posting GMO


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## creativeforge (Jul 11, 2022)

Very informative thread. Crypto once hailed as the most democratic form of currency, but reality is different - greed is greed. And there's always something more in the world of FOMO...


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## Arbee (Jul 11, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> This is pretty amazing. This filled in so many of the subtle gaps about crypto, NFTs, etc that were hard to wrap my head around... Thanks for posting GMO


Ditto that, great video. It just illustrates yet again how effective it is to make people an offer they don't understand and fuel it with FOMO.


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## timprebble (Jul 11, 2022)

I wonder what the OP is spending all his amazing new cryptocurrency on?
His own personal orchestra, with all players on retainer?
Maybe a Tesla Cybertruck sized 4-dimensional wall of unobtanium modules?
A dozen EMS Synthis? Sashimi for breakfast?

The mind boggles with what he would actually do...
Since "finally it happened" perhaps you can share Arturas?
How do you convert/launder the crypto to something of value?


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## tmhuud (Jul 12, 2022)

I thought you said CyberDuck! (Bows out and leaves b4 getting banned for silliness)


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## MarkusS (Jul 19, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> I thought the whole thing with using crytpo to hide illigal stuff wasnt true
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, it literally says in the article crypto was used for blackmailing/ransom (couldn't read the whole article) so yes it's true. Ransom, drug money, money laundering, you name it - it has been a big thing with Silk Road, it was an online black market for illegal activity using Bitcoin (look it up, it's really interesting). I'm not technic savvy enough to know if it's really tracable or not but I suppose if it is it's still very hard to trace, not impossible but much more difficult than your typical bank account. Maybe bitcoin tries to have a better image now to get people to invest in it. Other than that it's also a ecologically catastrophic to host bitcoin because of the insanely large amout of energy that is needed to power the blockchain computers.


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## Thomas Costantino (Aug 11, 2022)

Wow... you fellas took it easy on this guy. I usually like my Scam Posts just like my cashews; lightly roasted. 

Surprised this thread actually turned into a decent debate about NFT’s. I’d rather see more people lighting up the nature of this post. It got hate because it’s well deserved and keeps naive artists on their toes. NFT marketplace and Crypto as a whole is rotten to its core. 

The plus side is that all of this craziness has made the entire world more concerned about currency. Also, NFT’s purposed the idea that people may want to own digital art as an asset. This in turn is good for creators. Once the NFT marketplace burns and crashes for good, I’m curious to see what shift comes next. Hopefully it’s one with a currency based on gold again, and a sustainable marketplace for artists that focuses on great creations- not flipping useless encryption files attached to sub par J-peg images.


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## MeloKeyz (Nov 1, 2022)

Guys, call me stupid but What is NFT and what is used for? I slightly read about it but still don't get how it works fully. I just don't believe someone will buy one of my tracks for $3K. And What is blockchain? Sorry I've been writing and submitting tracks to libraries in an isolation zone.


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## tc9000 (Nov 1, 2022)

Markrs said:


> NFT along with most crypto are just full of people hoping that some other idiot will pay more for something worthless!


> me: looks at crypto portfolio (currently at 50% losses >..<)


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## MartinH. (Nov 1, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> Guys, call me stupid but What is NFT and what is used for?


This video seems to be pretty popular and likely has more in depth answers than anyone here can give you. My understanding is that the primary uses for NFTs are pyramid schemes, gambling, money laundering, and needlessly contrived ways to have a record of ownership over something.





MeloKeyz said:


> I slightly read about it but still don't get how it works fully.


I bet most people buying them also don't, or else they wouldn't buy them .



MeloKeyz said:


> I just don't believe someone will buy one of my tracks for $3K.


NFTs mostly aren't sold for the art associated with them, they are sold for the promise to later find a sucker who is willing to pay more for it than you paid.



MeloKeyz said:


> And What is blockchain?


It's a buzzword... and also cryptographic technology stuff. Honestly it's a waste of time trying to understand the details, just stay away from all things that advertise with the word blockchain. There are nearly no usecases where the technology makes more sense than a database. And it's an extreme waste of energy.



MeloKeyz said:


> Sorry I've been writing and submitting tracks to libraries in an isolation zone.


Carry on then! Nothing to see here. 


P.S.: If you have an unexplainable desire to watch something uber-cringe and crypto related, here you go: 


Spoiler


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## MeloKeyz (Nov 1, 2022)

@MartinH. Shit! that's 2 hours watch. I think I am going to stick to submitting to libraries and wait my royalties


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## Sophus (Nov 2, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> Guys, call me stupid but What is NFT and what is used for?


It's basically a digital payment receipt that also has a short text attached to it. This text is usually a URL. People will tell you, if you own an NFT you also own the content the URL points to exclusively. Of course, in reality you only have the NFT with the URL. Since you don't administrate the URL yourself, it can be redirected to somewhere else or the server with the content can be changed or deleted. So it's basically a scam.


MeloKeyz said:


> I slightly read about it but still don't get how it works fully. I just don't believe someone will buy one of my tracks for $3K.


Nobody pays these prices. Scammers will transfer their NFTs between multiple of their own accounts for high prices until some stupid idiot thinks that these are real transactions and will buy the NFT for an even higher price. The scammer takes the money and the buyer won't find anyone willing to buy the NFT in the future which basically means a 100% loss on value because it cannot be resold.


MeloKeyz said:


> And What is blockchain? Sorry I've been writing and submitting tracks to libraries in an isolation zone.


It's basically a list of all transactions. Each node in the network has a copy of the complete list. Theoretically this means, that these lists cannot be manipulated, because you would need to manipulate all nodes, which isn't possible. This would make stealing money out of your account impossible. But scammers will just create their own crypto currencies or exchanges were they can do whatever they want or they try to steal your account credentials to transfer crypto coins from your account to theirs. So it's not save whatsoever.


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