# Why aren't Trumpets used anymore ?



## nuyo (Oct 25, 2020)

I know they still get used in Scores.
But if you compare the Brass Section to the Strings Section,
the Trumpet plays very rarely in most of todays film score while the violin plays everywhere.


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## davidson (Oct 25, 2020)

They're not really as versatile as the violin. I see them more along the lines of a tasty embellishment, like the flute or irish whistle, but more commonly used, obviously.


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## ptram (Oct 25, 2020)

Most of the music I hear from commercial movies and docu-fictions at the TV are depressing low strings alternating between C minor and Ab minor. I guess there is no room for bright trumpets in that range.

Paolo


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## RonOrchComp (Oct 25, 2020)

Is it possible that many composers just don't know what to do with them?


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## JohnG (Oct 25, 2020)

I agree with @RonOrchComp that some people don't really know how to use them. Other reasons?

1. Samples stink -- Many (not all) sampled trumpets are pretty weak; either the sound is bad or they lack agility, particularly very short tonguing but not just that. Moreover, in some cases they are mf-ff and nothing really soft.

2. Melody -- With the dearth of melody these days, the trumpet sometimes lacks its big moments.

3. Economy -- if you're going to hire players, most people will want the flexibility of strings and French Horns, as they can cover a wide range. Many people treat trumpets as a "specialty-only" colour.


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## Tice (Oct 25, 2020)

I do reckon trumpets are quite under-utilized. Even the post-melodic film scoring style has plenty of reason to use them, but it doesn't happen as often as I think is ideal. But then, everyone wants to stand out somehow. Looks like we found a way to do just that: use your trumpets creatively!


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## Jazzaria (Oct 25, 2020)

I'd agree that violins/strings are over-relied on as orchestral butter, and that trumpets (and others - don't forget woodwinds) could be utilized more. But I do have to point out that the "any more" isn't exactly true - trumpets/brass have *always* been underutilized in orchestral settings, as for much of music history brass instruments either didn't exist or were much simpler, and only come in for essentially the Really Loud or Special Effects portions of the score.

If you play in an orchestra, it's somewhat of a joke that the trumpet players are always at the back killing time one way or another until they have to blast their one loud phrase/note. Romantic and modern music moved a *bit* away from that, and certainly many classic film scores are very brassy - but there's definitely precedent for "brass as a service."


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## gsilbers (Oct 25, 2020)




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## Bluemount Score (Oct 25, 2020)

nuyo said:


> I know they still get used in Scores.
> But if you compare the Brass Section to the Strings Section,
> the Trumpet plays very rarely in most of todays film score while the violin plays everywhere.


Also because of FRENCH HORNS that are used in a way to high register on a regular basis by _modern composers_. I mean, anything is possible with samples, I did that "mistake" too...


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## nolotrippen (Oct 25, 2020)

It's odd. TV scores used to use mostly brass and woodwinds because you could get a lot of diverse sounds and effects out of them, more so than the same amount of strings. So, bang for the buck, more colors from winds INCLUDING trumpet (not so much use of Fr. Horns).


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## Dave Connor (Oct 25, 2020)

Strings have always dominated traditionally and I imagine the percentage is listed in more than a few orchestration books.

That said, on the last cue I did for the feature Yes Day, I not only used the trumpets a lot but ended up with a full blown fanfare where the entire story was being told with them. Rare perhaps but when I think about it, I’ve written a fair amount of Brass dominated cues along the way.

I think brass writing (Trpts, Hrns, Bones) is something composers should have a handle on. Some genres such as games might not use them a lot but many do and there is nothing quite like a brass cue of any shape, size or volume.


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## nuyo (Oct 25, 2020)

gsilbers said:


>




This is basically the answer. Trumpets poke trough everything. And since scores became more subtle, it's hard to fit them in.


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## RonOrchComp (Oct 25, 2020)

Some good responses.

BTW - my comment may have sounded funny, or snide, but I was actually being serious. I think that trumpet, and bass clarinet are just two of those instruments that many composers just do not know what to do with. 

Which includes, me, BTW


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## J-M (Oct 25, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> Some good responses.
> 
> BTW - my comment may have sounded funny, or snide, but I was actually being serious. I think that trumpet, and bass clarinet are just two of those instruments that many composers just do not know what to do with.
> 
> Which includes, me, BTW



May I join the club? I rarely use trumpets, but I sure as hell would like to learn more about how to best use them...


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## gsilbers (Oct 25, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> Some good responses.
> 
> BTW - my comment may have sounded funny, or snide, but I was actually being serious. I think that trumpet, and bass clarinet are just two of those instruments that many composers just do not know what to do with.
> 
> Which includes, me, BTW



I hear it most used in double tongue fast repetition flares for those action scenes. (desplat/williams)
Or doubling the melody an octave higher for a bigger sound. (brian tyler)
Or accents doubling the overall orchestra.
And of course the swells and swells cluster.

Seems the trumpets brightens up the sound and the style nowdasys is a bit darker imo. (too many scores to make a proper assessment)
Like danny elfman and john wiliams scores have a higher register sound than say brian tyler or harry gregson williams. So maybe these new superher0 movies that border on the cheesy have a helping hand on darker scores? (maybe?).

MArvel movies made scores sound more homogenous.
I might be wrong but too much trumpet might get into animation land type of scores.
you know.. fast moving orchestral arrangements like williams and powell.

Then again, joris de man did an excelent job with trumpets in that style in kill zone 2



Im not a fan of john william or power style of scores. They sound cheesy cartoonish to me. Even though its like the hardest music to do. its just that sound is not to my liking. and trumpets is a big factor there fo rme. but joris de man somehow got a very cool sound in that realm in killzone2.


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## nolotrippen (Oct 25, 2020)

Just watched The Core which has a huge (120 player) orchestra used by Chrisopher Young. Very trumpet forward, but the whole orchestra sure gets a workout. Very noticable score. Loved it.


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## Jazzaria (Oct 25, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> Some good responses.
> 
> BTW - my comment may have sounded funny, or snide, but I was actually being serious. I think that trumpet, and bass clarinet are just two of those instruments that many composers just do not know what to do with.
> 
> Which includes, me, BTW



Trumpet I can't add much beyond my initial point (that their orchestral exclusion isn't all that new - brass has always been more "band" than "orchestra"). But bass clarinet as a woodwind multi-instrumentalist I'm happy to share a few tips there:

- Lots of low power (can double w/low strings/bassoons)
- Surprisingly large range (similar to clarinet, possibly more if you're really good at altissimo)
- In the hands of a good player, lots of variety of expression and extended techniques



Basically, it's woodwind cello - amazing range and versatility. In a sense it's the clarinet counterpart of a tenor saxophone, but it can both go lower than it (baritone range) and has highs competitive with alto instruments. Absolutely under-loved, at least orchestrally - again, for band (and 20th century orchestra) there's some great features for it.


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## RonOrchComp (Oct 25, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> Im not a fan of john william(s)...



@MikeGreene

Mike - we just found a member who needs to be banned!!!!!!


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## purple (Oct 25, 2020)

Trumpets aren't really the go-to for your standard "epic" fare, also sampled trumpets sound bad in general. The horn is much better as a sampled instrument in all cases and is more "epic" I guess somehow.


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## RonOrchComp (Oct 25, 2020)

purple said:


> lso sampled trumpets sound bad in general.



I don't agree with this. The Cinesamples trumpets sound marvelous. The Berlin Brass trumpets also sound really good, as do the new VSL offering from a few months back.


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## purple (Oct 25, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> I don't agree with this. The Cinesamples trumpets sound marvelous. The Berlin Brass trumpets also sound really good, as do the new VSL offering from a few months back.


I mean, they're certainly not unusable, but in any given brass collection the trumpets tend to give it the "synthiness" we all dread. Proper balance and mixing can mitigate this but perhaps the fact that trumpets aren't as instantly gratifying due to this fact as horns or low brass makes them less likely to "inspire" and thus get used less. If you're one of those types that opens up a sample library for example and noodles until you get "inspired" by its sound, sampled trumpets aren't going to tend to be the kind of instrument that has that effect as much as, say, some epic low brass patch or a 12 horns patch or something.


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## Mark Kouznetsov (Oct 25, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> Im not a fan of john william or power style of scores. They sound cheesy cartoonish to me.


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## Jazzaria (Oct 25, 2020)

purple said:


> I mean, they're certainly not unusable, but in any given brass collection the trumpets tend to give it the "synthiness" we all dread. Proper balance and mixing can mitigate this but perhaps the fact that trumpets aren't as instantly gratifying due to this fact as horns or low brass makes them less likely to "inspire" and thus get used less. If you're one of those types that opens up a sample library for example and noodles until you get "inspired" by its sound, sampled trumpets aren't going to tend to be the kind of instrument that has that effect as much as, say, some epic low brass patch or a 12 horns patch or something.



Don't get me wrong, you have a point - but, confession time: I really think that whenever somebody says "Instrument X just doesn't sound right when sampled!" what they're _really_ saying is "I particularly like (and possibly play or have disproportionate experience with) instrument X."

I've heard many folks swear guitar can't be properly sampled or simulated. They're probably right. They're also probably guitarists, or otherwise more aware of and wish to use nuanced and extended techniques and sounds available to guitarists. To me, UJAM Virtual Guitar is real enough for backing, and Acousticsamples guitars are good enough for some lead work (so far - who knows what the future holds).

I hear relatively fewer people talk about the limitations of sampled clarinet - but I assure you they are there. Fewer folks play clarinet than guitar  and that's OK, but the richness of the instruments are comparable. Basically, that's what art is - doing hard things with simple pieces.

This isn't a golden rule - some instruments (percussion, including piano from a physics perspective) are objectively easier to sample and simulate, and some instruments (orchestral strings) are just so darn lucrative that enormous investments have been made. And you may well not be a trumpet player  and again you really do have a point - due to physics and human hearing range, it's harder to digitally capture and reproduce the unique overtone series that leads to timbre for higher pitched instruments, and so they may indeed sound a bit "synthy" at times relative to their lower counterparts.

But I think it's a bit silly to worry overmuch about which instruments have been "sampled well" and which haven't. Samples are always, by definition, reductions of the original. But they are convenient, as I am not a maestro, but I can have an orchestra do my bidding nonetheless


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## Gene Pool (Oct 25, 2020)

Jazzaria said:


> ...trumpets/brass have *always* been underutilized in orchestral settings, as for much of music history brass instruments either didn't exist or were much simpler, and only come in for essentially the Really Loud or Special Effects portions of the score.
> 
> If you play in an orchestra, it's somewhat of a joke that the trumpet players are always at the back killing time one way or another until they have to blast their one loud phrase/note. Romantic and modern music moved a *bit* away from that, and certainly many classic film scores are very brassy - but there's definitely precedent for "brass as a service."



Sorry, no offense intended, but the only part of that that is true is where you said that brass instruments used to be simpler.


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## Gene Pool (Oct 25, 2020)

nuyo said:


> I know they still get used in Scores.
> But if you compare the Brass Section to the Strings Section,
> the Trumpet plays very rarely in most of todays film score while the violin plays everywhere.



Every last thing in Hollywood, including music and orchestration, is based on a "flavor of the day" mentality. The current scoring aesthetic does not use trumpets as prominently as they were used previously, and now that muscle has either atrophied, or with some, never developed in the first place. This is a generalization of the "overall" state of things, of course—exceptions notwithstanding.


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## Jazzaria (Oct 25, 2020)

Gene Pool said:


> Sorry, no offense intended, but the only part of that that is true is where you said that brass instruments used to be simpler.



So, I must be imagining the fact that many e.g. Mozart symphonies don't even have trumpets, and when they do their parts tend to have an awful lot more rests/fewer notes than everyone else? https://imslp.simssa.ca/files/imglnks/usimg/3/38/IMSLP00052-Mozart_-_Symphony_No_20_in_D_Major,_K133.pdf

This of course is in part due to the simplicity of the historical (pre-modern valve) instruments, which couldn't really play in as varied of keys as well. But it's also in part due to volume as was also discussed.

And I'm pretty sure that jokes about brass players (and indeed all instruments) are a common phenomenon across many ensembles - they're meant in good fun, but often reflect common trends to some extent.

I'm not criticizing brass instruments  nor you. But I've played in multiple orchestras and am simply reporting my experience. In particular, if you've ever played in a chamber orchestra you'll appreciate the relatively infrequent (but, when it occurs, important) presence of brass.


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## Jazzaria (Oct 25, 2020)

Gene Pool said:


> Just direct anyone you know who's having trouble along those lines to impressionist orchestral works. For the first time the woodwinds were pretty much put on a par with the strings, and the versatility and range of expression of the brass was explored quite a bit more than previously as well—especially their integration with the woodwinds.



Ah yes I think that explains a bit your response to me - wholly agreed when it comes to impressionist/romantic periods. But orchestras often perform a broader range of historical periods, which is what my comments are meant to reflect.


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## Gingerbread (Oct 25, 2020)

Is it different from any other trend pattern of Hollywood? Many films today use a teal/orange color palette, virtually to the exclusion of any other color. It's not because directors and color stylists have "forgotten" how to use other colors; it's just that a certain group-think prevails, once something proves popular.

Trumpets and woodwinds currently are perceived as "too classical" and "old fashioned" by the film elite. Until the day that some auteur uses them effectively, and then suddenly they'll be all the rage.


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## purple (Oct 25, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> Is it different from any other trend pattern of Hollywood? Many films today use a teal/orange color palette, virtually to the exclusion of any other color. It's not because directors and color stylists have "forgotten" how to use other colors; it's just that a certain group-think prevails, once something proves popular.
> 
> Trumpets and woodwinds currently are perceived as "too classical" and "old fashioned" by the film elite. Until the day that some auteur uses them effectively, and then suddenly they'll be all the rage.


I think it's sort of a combination of this, and also what I said. As a feedback loop, epic music sounds a certain way therefore epic music must be written that same way in order to get what works, therefore further epic music must sound like that and so on...


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## Jazzaria (Oct 25, 2020)

Gene Pool said:


> I don't want to type too much, so I may be too brief here, but anyway...
> 
> Mozart symphonies without brass don't tell the whole tale. For example, for reasons I don't wanna get into, he only used timpani in certain keys, and he allied the trumpets with the timpani (see below), so, no timpani-no trumpets, generally speaking.
> 
> ...



Fair points  and I admit to painting with a slightly broad brush at times. Nonetheless my goal is in portraying a high level picture that I think is actually still accurate overall, and captures more nuance than the prevailing posts surrounding my response ("brass are too loud, that's why they're not used so much").

I didn't intend "underutilized" to imply that classical music should have used brass more, simply that it wasn't used that much - clearly using it more than it was would change the style. My point in bringing up earlier music was simply to respond to the "any more" in the subject, which is fundamentally what I'm taking issue with - again speaking from experience, brass have long been minimally included in a variety of orchestral works and subgenres, and that's really my main point.

Regarding "special effects", extended techniques generally weren't in use in the baroque or classical periods, but I'd consider the mere presence of brass to be a "special effect" at times (just from a timbral variation perspective). It doesn't mean they are using mutes or flutter tonguing  just that they fairly significantly change the color of the group and the "feeling" of the moment, beyond their harmonic or melodic contributions. And sure, they weren't Really Loud by modern standards - but they're still louder than any other instrument in the orchestra, considered singly (except perhaps percussion).

Your points re: timpani and all that are great and in my opinion quite compatible with the higher level points I'm making - you're just delving far deeper into specifics, which is of course a great thing to havethe level of expertise in this forum is a large part of its value. The fact that a few brass + percussion players balanced the rest of the ensemble, and tended to only do so during somewhat more "special" parts, is exactly what I'm getting at. Sure, they didn't blare out the braaams  that wouldn't have been polite to their noble patrons (nor perhaps really possible with the instruments they had), but they _were_ loud in the relative sense as compared to everything around them.

So again overall - I'm really responding to the "any more" point, which I think you must also find not quite correct (it's not that brass were always present in orchestral settings, but that their presence has varied), and adding a few more reasons beyond "they're loud" to try to explain that variation. I wouldn't claim my reasons are complete nor comprehensive, but directionally and contextually they align with my own orchestral experience. Your details and nuance are welcome, and I hope you can see it as additive rather than contrary. 🙏


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## robgb (Oct 25, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> I don't agree with this. The Cinesamples trumpets sound marvelous. The Berlin Brass trumpets also sound really good, as do the new VSL offering from a few months back.


Sample Modeling trumpets are excellent.


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## Bollen (Nov 2, 2020)

nuyo said:


> I know they still get used in Scores.
> But if you compare the Brass Section to the Strings Section,
> the Trumpet plays very rarely in most of todays film score while the violin plays everywhere.


Because trumpet players are pricks....


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## MauroPantin (Nov 2, 2020)

There's a clear trend to go for the lower range of the orchestra that's been happening.

I believe it is partially because of the X-Curve everyone targets. 

I also have a theory (still not researched or done any experiments with this, just intuition, I welcome the input of anyone well versed in mastering) that you can get away with mastering a low-frequency intensive track much hotter than a high-freq track. I want to do a test of this using some pink noise and different EQ curves and tilts to compare and see what happens, but never find the time to get around to it.


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## Akarin (Nov 2, 2020)

A lot of people prefer to use the bidenbone.

...I'll show myself out.


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