# A balanced look at EW



## NYC Composer (Apr 5, 2013)

I wanted to start this as a new thread because I think there's always been more here then met the eye. The long EW bashing threads, the supporters chiming in, it's never that simple, at least not to me. Personally, I think EW has earned some enmity, but the other side of the story is equally compelling. Here's how I see it:

The Good

1. Unquestionably, EW changed the game. Doug's money, talent and foresight and Nick and his team's genius pushed the bar and changed the game to bring us to the point we were at now, a virtual renaissance of sample development. In every business there are visionaries and groundbreakers. I list Eric Persing as one of a few, the gang behind the MIDI standard, Bob Moog, the list goes on-but Nick and Doug stand at the front of the line that created the modern, high quality virtual orchestra. The Roland orchestral series was my first viable virtual orchestra , done in 32 (!) meg. EWQLSO was my second, and it totally advanced the art in its largely successful attempt at comprehensive, wide ranging orchestral sampling. Symphony of Voices also broke totally new ground. So did Silk. Again, the vision behind these things was pretty astounding, and I think Nick will always be the father of the modern era of orchestral sampling (and lack of sleep).

2. EW's pricing began the process of democratizing high quality virtual music production. The prices started at a certain point and ramped down as the product got older. To this day, professionals and hobbyists alike can, at some point in time, get into the high quality virtual game at a price point they can deal with. This is both shrewd marketing on EW's part, allowing them to make money on a product long past the top of its cycle, and good for the consumer for obvious reasons.

3. The HW series exhibits a continued commitment on EW's part to push the envelope. I don't have anything in the series, but enough professionals I admire and a number of great demos have convinced me that these are quality products despite their complexities.

4. Assigning Jay a gig trying to facilitate things for the consumer is definitely a step in the right direction for customer service.

The Bad


1.Software, software, software. For me, on a Mac Pro, Play has worked since version 1.2.5. Before that, it was disastrous. Now, it's simply a bit balky. I can deal with it generally despite the memory leak problem, its demand to be first in line and its inflexibility as an editor, but the promise of the libraries is so much more vast than the software can handle, it's just a shame....which leads to...

2. Overpromising( or at least over-hinting) and underdelivering. Play Pro? Play 4? How many years have we been waiting for the software to be improved as it has been suggested that it will be? Most companies don't hit their deadlines, there are always snags along the way, but the underdevlopment of Play, sadly, has set a new low in that arena....and there has been no.....

3. Communication. So important for the interface between company and customer. If EW had released a statement apologetically (never seems to happen) stating that the lagging development of Play has been a constant problem, that resources were being assigned to it and it was being prioritized, giving a reasonable date for completion, I think a lot of customers would have and might still appreciate it. But that would lead into the last and perhaps most important of the negativity that sometimes surrounds the company these days, and that would be:

4. Attitude. "We don't need your business, we have plenty of customers" ...is my takeaway from all the banning and lack of efforts to ameliorate various customer concerns (such as the above stated lack of information about improved software). "The customer is not always right"..well, that's certainly true enough, but when did it become a sort of snarly business model, and why does it make sense? I haven't had to use EW support much personally, and I found the forum useless in the early days because the responses were way too long in coming, but the few desperate support calls I made were fielded by nice enough people. Jay's contention is that's still the case, and I believe him...but from a top down perspective, I just don't get the stiffened back attitude-it's almost as if it's "look at what we're giving them at these price points! They should shut up and be grateful!" I don't think this plays in Peoria or NYC, personally, and I don't see how it could possibly advance a business plan.

5. Mac support. HW series. The initially stated computer requirements were a tad understated. This is anecdotal, but seems to have been born out on practically every level.

Going Forward

Earlier, I listed Eric Persing along with Nick Phoenix as being seminal developers in the furthering of my career. I am grateful to both. At present, I don't buy EW products because of some of the negative aspects listed above. Unlike some others here, though, I WANT TO. I'd love to see a reasonable change in attitude and respect for customers. I cannot see any reason why this would not profit them. I remain hopeful.


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## Simon Ravn (Apr 5, 2013)

*Anxiously awaiting Jay's response, telling us all that EW people are great and they don't have a general attitude problem, but mistakes do happen. That Mac isn't suited for audio software, that people will get mad if you give them a release date of PLAY, that PLAY was superior to Kontakt and still is in some way and so on and so on*

I agree with all of the above - I have quite a few EW products and none of them are less than "good". All very useful and I use HS, Silk and RA every day at the moment and it works. However I passed on Hollywood Woodwinds and I will pass on all future EW products unless something comes along that I can't find from developers who don't have such an attitude issue. And at the moment EW are not on top, they seem to have been standing still for the past two years, overtaken by Cinesamples, Spitfire and other high quality developers. So really, I think it's highly unlikely that I'll spend a dime there again.


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## park bench (Apr 5, 2013)

"[if you are complaining like a banshee] We don't need your business, we have plenty of customers"

That seems to represent the situation more accurately.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 5, 2013)

park bench @ Fri Apr 05 said:


> "[if you are complaining like a banshee] We don't need your business, we have plenty of customers"
> 
> That seems to represent the situation more accurately.



I've read posts that I thought were reasonably polite while still recounting the user's difficulties, yet the user was banned, so I respectfully disagree.


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## Sopranos (Apr 5, 2013)

I completely agree OP.

The only sad part in the thread so far is using EW in the same sentence (or thread) as Spectrasonics or Cinesamples. Pff the letters EW shouldn't even be allowed around the other two class acts.

Some think there is a bias against EW. All I can say is I am speaking from my own personal experiences with these companies. Look around (not just at this forum either), I challenge you to find a post regarding Cinesamples or Spectrasonics where an issue wasn't addressed in a very timely manner... and all in a respectable manner. I am completely satisfied to see Cinesamples reap the success they deserve - this is a team with quality products that I am happy to spend my money on.... and i know I will be supported in those purchases.

There's no conspiracy. These companies earned the good/bad reputations they have.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 5, 2013)

Sopranos @ Fri Apr 05 said:


> I completely agree OP.
> 
> The only sad part in the thread so far is using EW in the same sentence (or thread) as Spectrasonics or Cinesamples. Pff the letters EW shouldn't even be allowed around the other two class acts.
> 
> ...



Obviously, EW has quality products as well, and a long track record of creating them.


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## Diffusor (Apr 5, 2013)

Sopranos @ Fri Apr 05 said:


> I completely agree OP.
> 
> The only sad part in the thread so far is using EW in the same sentence (or thread) as Spectrasonics or Cinesamples. Pff the letters EW shouldn't even be allowed around the other two class acts.
> 
> ...



I was thinking that same thing. Innovators in orchestral libraries? I think that title would go to VSL, who started coming out with deeply sampled and comprehensive products with true legato over 10 years ago. AFAIK EW didn't get any true legato until HS like 2 1/2 years ago.


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## muziksculp (Apr 5, 2013)

Here are some session pics of the upcoming EW-SD3 library, which features Mickey Hart !

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?p=724806#post724806


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## NYC Composer (Apr 5, 2013)

No question that VSL was and is an innovator-it just happens I never went their way back then. I own several of their products now, and they are top notch.

edit-that said, legato is not the only factor in sampling, and one company vs. another was not the point of this thread.


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## re-peat (Apr 5, 2013)

Sopranos @ Sat Apr 06 said:


> (...) I challenge you to find a post regarding Cinesamples (...) where an issue wasn't addressed in a very timely manner... and all in a respectable manner. (...)


Mmm. That's a challenge as difficult as breathing in and breathing out. 
But let's not go there again. Unpleasant memories.

_


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## Nick Phoenix (Apr 5, 2013)

I have no comments about EW and some of the complaints other than to say that trying to raise the bar and push the envelope is a journey fraught with peril.

I have been obsessed with and recording playing and finding filmscore and ethnic percussion for the past 15 years. I have also been making trailer music for those same 15 years. After releasing SD2 I saw an explosion of competition of big drum and ethnic perc VIs, including a new company from someone that had done some work on SD2 for me. At that point I decided that I wouldn't do an SD3, unless it had something really HEAVY to offer. As a life long Grateful Dead fan, I am excited to announce SD3, a collaboration between myself and Mickey Hart. Mickey has probably the largest and most unique collection of ethnic percussion in the world. He is also a maniac and a musicologist. Recorded with 5 mic positions, SD3 is a milestone. There is nothing like it in the universe!!! Nick


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## NYC Composer (Apr 5, 2013)

Nick Phoenix @ Sat Apr 06 said:


> I have no comments about EW and some of the complaints other than to say that trying to raise the bar and push the envelope is a journey fraught with peril.
> 
> I have been obsessed with and recording playing and finding filmscore and ethnic percussion for the past 15 years. I have also been making trailer music for those same 15 years. After releasing SD2 I saw an explosion of competition of big drum and ethnic perc VIs, including a new company from someone that had done some work on SD2 for me. At that point I decided that I wouldn't do an SD3, unless it had something really HEAVY to offer. As a life long Grateful Dead fan, I am excited to announce SD3, a collaboration between myself and Mickey Hart. Mickey has probably the largest and most unique collection of ethnic percussion in the world. He is also a maniac and a musicologist. Recorded with 5 mic positions, SD3 is a milestone. There is nothing like it in the universe!!! Nick



And sadly (he said, trying in vain to stay on point) I won't be buying it for the reasons listed above.


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## jamwerks (Apr 6, 2013)

Nick Phoenix @ Sat Apr 06 said:


> There is nothing like it in the universe!!! Nick



Nice to see you working with passion. Hope you're doing some multi-mic stereo mixes for us. That's the future. Everyone is doing it.

It's practical stuff like that, and other shortcoming's with Play, that make so many of us look elsewhere when buying...


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## mk282 (Apr 6, 2013)

Nick Phoenix @ 6.4.2013 said:


> Recorded with 5 mic positions, SD3 is a milestone.



Wow, only one more mic position in comparison to 4 mic positions used in Evolution Series: World Percussion. And let's recall that the Engine version of ES:WP had ELEVEN mic positions. Milestone? I think not.


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## Tatu (Apr 6, 2013)

mk282 @ Sat Apr 06 said:


> Wow, only one more mic position in comparison to 4 mic positions used in Evolution Series: World Percussion. And let's recall that the Engine version of ES:WP had ELEVEN mic positions. Milestone? I think not.



I suppose it's not all just about mic positions? 

What I've noticed - during my years of mediocre VI-ing and seeing as more and more determined and bold dev's keep chiming to the market - is, that there's quite a bit of difference between developers who leave crap to their samples and call it "breathing" and "living" and those, who have the resources, know-how and will to clean up everything extra from their samples and make them work beautifully. EW has always been part of the latter and I suppose they also know it.


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## ed buller (Apr 6, 2013)

I actually thing East West were the original company to beat in this game. QLSO was a truly groundbreaking product that still sounds amazing. I really think it all went wrong with play. It may work fine now but it has left a lot of people thoroughly pissed off and the company hasn't dealt with it well, which is a shame as for me, their track record on a personal level has been great. 

They were very fair on pricing, making different versions available at decent prices and back in the northern sounds days were a very helpful resource ( both Doug and nick posting regularly ) on all their products 

Obviously as nick's career has grown ( props to the gig at disney hall BTW ) they have retreated a bit from the public and i don't like the vibe over at the sounds on line forum but as we have seen from the remarkably patient posts here from Jay, there is another side to the story which we should hear. 

I have a dream that they go back to all the recordings they made in Seattle with the Prof and his gold plated mics and make a new library with a new sampler ( or kontakt ) i suspect they would sell heaps. I still think there is a lot of life left in those recordings. The libraries made on soundstages all sound wonderful but you really can't beat a concert hall and the quality of those original recordings from QLSO still sound exceptional. I'm sure with the programming techniques now available they could be revisited .

I'm intrigued by SD3 and if anything would tempt me to try PLAY it would be a bespoke Library from NICK. 

e


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## Rv5 (Apr 6, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Fri Apr 05 said:


> I wanted to start this as a new thread because I think there's always been more here then met the eye. The long EW bashing threads, the supporters chiming in, it's never that simple, at least not to me. Personally, I think EW has earned some enmity, but the other side of the story is equally compelling. Here's how I see it:
> 
> The Good
> 
> ...



(edited)

In my experience of customer support from banks, retailers, private sectors etc etc two stand out as the most bizarre, HSBC and EW. I've littered these pages with enough about it so I'll not re-iterate here but it is a shame.

Like you I agree these are seminal figures in the development of sample libraries.

Two Steps From Hell and their music have influenced my life a lot (I spent a year at university studying trailer music and its trends a few years back, a lot of that focused on TSFH). So as I've said in a previous post it's weird coming on a forum where people who have influenced my life reside and just talking people through the problems I've been having in hope for advice from a well-established community. But I think it completely reasonable that I am and would suspect it's understood. I didn't want to, but I wasn't given a choice by EW because support tickets and emails I sent were ignored. Desperation and frustration results, and people hammer it out over forums. When it's all done with I'll post them up because for all you know they deserved to be ignored! (They didn't).

Given my passion for music and all things sample-library I'd also like to be excited about SD3 and, prior to my recent experiences, I would have been chomping at the bit. Of course this may change, but as it stands at the moment, I won't be buying another EW product. Quite honestly, if they had handled my concerns differently, which I found were shared by many other users, even with a simple response, I'd have by now bought Pianos, Silk, Ra and Choirs at the least. Instead I now own similar from other developers.

This is just my personal experience and feeling toward the balanced look at EW. Great products. Poor platform. Mis-leading advice. Ignored support. Not worth dealing with the company for.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 6, 2013)

I want to reiterate that the purpose of the thread was not EW bashing. It was an attempt to take a fair look at the pluses and minuses at EW. My personal boycott could be broken by a mission statement from Doug that acknowledges some of the points I've referred to and suggests a different approach and a reasonable time frame. I'm not holding my breath, but I hope to be pleasantly surprised someday.


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## Rv5 (Apr 6, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Sat Apr 06 said:


> I want to reiterate that the purpose of the thread was not EW bashing. It was an attempt to take a fair look at the pluses and minuses at EW. My personal boycott could be broken by a mission statement from Doug that acknowledges some of the points I've referred to and suggests a different approach and a reasonable time frame. I'm not holding my breath, but I hope to be pleasantly surprised someday.



Your points are nicely framed, fair and I agree totally - had I received any such statement or understanding from a support team I too would be in a very different position regarding EW products. As it is I own SD2, Hollywood Strings and Brass and they are nothing short of phenomenal but (for HS and Brass) only once I bought a PC. I visited a friend in their studio and he'd spent the day trying to sort out Play again. 

Another friend has never had any issues in his studio. Therefore there are inconsistencies meaning it's hard to reproduce. So when you're faced with being told if you can't reproduce it how do you expect help... it's frustrating and people feel let down. An EW response to this post would quote the "Another friend has never had any issues" and that'd be it. Therein is this duality of something nearly so so great being let down by something that many people feel could be simple to change I suppose.


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## Nick Phoenix (Apr 6, 2013)

mk282 @ Sat Apr 06 said:


> Nick Phoenix @ 6.4.2013 said:
> 
> 
> > Recorded with 5 mic positions, SD3 is a milestone.
> ...



I just remembered why I stopped posting on forums.LOL. 

Yes it's not about the mic positions. It was only mentioned because it makes it compatible with the Hollywood stuff. Obviously the recording, round robins etc.. are all there. The milestone comment comes from the fact that many of the sounds are unique and really well played.


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## Synesthesia (Apr 6, 2013)

One of the downsides of being a dev is the amount of abuse you receive. 

I'm sure this eventually causes the gradual withdrawal. 

For example, today so far I have received three vaguely abusive emails from a person hiding behind an anonymous email address who is clearly suffering from NPD. What a brave chap!

It gets incredibly exhausting and even though 99% of the people you deal with are perfectly normal, the small number of idiots do spoil things for everyone eventually. 

Brave keyboard warriors! :D


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## Sopranos (Apr 6, 2013)

Synesthesia @ Sat Apr 06 said:


> One of the downsides of being a dev is the amount of abuse you receive.
> 
> I'm sure this eventually causes the gradual withdrawal.
> 
> ...



While there is some obvious truth to your statements, I think that goes for anyone. Whether a developer, business owner, employee, etc... there are always a handful of people (you call them idiots) that don't get it or jive with you.

However, in this case I don't think we are simply talking about "idiots" who don't like EW. But then again I encourage you to purchase some of their products and share your experiences when/if things don't work out as suggested in their ads. Or, when its time for support or to converse with other users openly on their forum then come back and share your experience.

But once again, Speactrasonics and VSL have both been in the business a long time too and you just don't see the kind of reports you will on EW. It's not by sheer chance or conspiracy.


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## Sopranos (Apr 6, 2013)

jamwerks @ Sat Apr 06 said:


> Nick Phoenix @ Sat Apr 06 said:
> 
> 
> > There is nothing like it in the universe!!! Nick
> ...



If only this kind of passion was shared and seen by the customer service or support team. They could very well have been the top dog. Such a shame with good products and shitty service.

In the LONG RUN, however, service will beat out the product quality almost every time. Cause in the long run something always goes wrong... its how they deal with it that retains or loses customers.


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## Synesthesia (Apr 6, 2013)

Hmm.. no thats not exactly what I meant!

I mean people who aren't even customers, just emailing anonymous abuse.


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## Synesthesia (Apr 6, 2013)

BTW - our current stat for replying to service queries is average 11 hours. Not bad I hope!


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## NYC Composer (Apr 6, 2013)

Synesthesia @ Sat Apr 06 said:


> BTW - our current stat for replying to service queries is average 11 hours. Not bad I hope!



Spitfire is, by all reports, establishing an excellent business model and service record-however, once again, I had hope the thread would stay on point in two ways:

1. Recognition that EW has been seminal and important in advancing the art of sampling, and -

2. Expressing your desire for EW to upgrade their customer friendliness model/software.

Or, of course, simply disagreeing that #2 is necessary.


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## RiffWraith (Apr 6, 2013)

Synesthesia @ Sun Apr 07 said:


> For example, today so far I have received three vaguely abusive emails from a person hiding behind an anonymous email address who is clearly suffering from NPD.



That was me. I am annoyed that you still haven't released the HZ perc lib.



Synesthesia @ Sun Apr 07 said:


> I mean people who aren't even customers, just emailing anonymous abuse.



Ok, well, I guess that wasn't me then... :lol:


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## midi_controller (Apr 6, 2013)

Nick Phoenix @ Sat Apr 06 said:


> I just remembered why I stopped posting on forums.LOL.



Don't let stuff like that bother you Nick, it's just not worth it. 

I'll go even further than some other people here and say that, in my opinion, East West has some of the best sounding, most comprehensive libraries on the market. Seriously, Hollywood Strings has spoiled me to the point that I can't use anything else for full string sections. The only problem I have is with the software and the customer service. 

I can't speak on behalf of the Mac users as I don't have one but what I will say is pretty much every complaint I have about the software could have been solved with Play Pro, which from a video I saw from a couple years ago looked like it was already set to go. It's frustrating at this point because no one wants to tell us what happened to it, or when (if ever) it might actually see the light of day.

I love EW's libraries but not everyone wants to work with them in the same exact way. 

As far as the customer service, it feels like EW is constantly on the defensive. It's understandable and human when you start getting attacked by some people that flat out will never be happy with anything you do, but they need to realize that most of us are not attacking them. We are not saying that Hollywood Strings still has issues because we don't like EW, we are saying it because it still has issues, ones that have been listed out by more than one person, and after so long even your most loyal of fans will start wondering why you are not listening to them. We start wondering if maybe you only care about your new products.

Anyway, I'll be interested to see what SD3, and Play 4, is like... if they ever come out.


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## quantum7 (Apr 6, 2013)

I just finished watching Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark. Remember that scene at the end of the movie with the giant warehouse with all the boxes collecting dust, never to see the light of day again? I could swear one of those boxes said Play Pro on it.


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## Synesthesia (Apr 6, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Sun Apr 07 said:


> Ok, well, I guess that wasn't me then... :lol:



:lol:


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## Dan Mott (Apr 6, 2013)

Nick Phoenix @ Sun Apr 07 said:


> mk282 @ Sat Apr 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Nick Phoenix @ 6.4.2013 said:
> ...



Definitely looking forward to see what you do with SD3, as I love ethnic percussion. There can never be enough of that stuff.


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## reddognoyz (Apr 6, 2013)

I think play was developed so Nick and co could control the pirating that is still rampant with kontakt based instruments. I dont love play but I understand that decision.Also wasn't play ewqlso the first vi to offer multi mics at least on the front page of the GUI.

I have done my share of EW bashing, mostly out of frustration with play and some disaffected tech supp. 

The sounds have been nothing short of stellar. I have found amazing gems in all of the Libraries I purchased from EW. 

EW like all of these niche vi developers is not a huge company, and I dont believe they, or anyone other developer should be vilified like they're trying to sell sugar cereals to little kids.


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## mk282 (Apr 7, 2013)

Are you kidding? In comparison to most other VI developers, EW is HUGE.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 7, 2013)

But tiny as companies go. Not anything like Apple, General Mills, Exxon. They do their thing and I'm sure they do very well.

The ongoing question baffles the mind. Great libraries, pricing that has democratized the process, some groundbreaking stuff over time, yet the forum problems and generally baffling attitude towards customers. Can this change? I'm hoping so. A company the size of EW, with the talent and resources at their disposal, should benefit us all as we benefit them with our purchases. Will Doug see his way clear to investing in more timely delivery of software, to improving the human interface? I'm hoping so. This company took me a ways-I'd like to continue the journey with them still in the game.


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## TheUnfinished (Apr 7, 2013)

I don't think there'd be anything like the frustration there is with East West if people didn't love the sound quality of their products and think that a few simple business changes would change things for the better.


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## Vlzmusic (Apr 7, 2013)

I agree with reddognoyz. In spite of some technical problems, some service curiosities perhaps, and overall marketing "way of doing things" which might not be to my liking - I think this dealing with EW as an "evil empire" has went too far.

I for once took part in such debate - over HOW when they were released, and feel really sorry about it now, cause bashing (even for pointing out real problems) leads to no place, and there are SO many good things to enjoy with EW products - that I do find it unwise to decry things that aren`t there. 

Would it change the world`s course if Play pro/4/Forbidden Planet/etc. wasn`t planned at all? Currently EW has huge range of products - some of them unique and indispensable, as EW choirs for example. But all that legacy being drowned in negativity, for which I just cannot see a reason. Yes, I do have some tech problems with Play libraries, yes I have encountered a bit of indifference once. World is not perfect. Didn`t you know that ? But all that joy I experienced when little gems that are hidden inside every EW lib (EWQLSO, Fab Four, Gipsy, Choirs - you name it) have served me so well, and put me in such a great light in front of my listeners - is more important for me personally.

And yes - I know I paid for them, they suppose to do the job - but you can pay for a product, and cannot negotiate one`s true talent, that goes into certain libs or instruments. All current devs price the libs by content ratios, and that`s normal, cause you cannot simply measure all those tiny bits of talent that make some libs WAY more valuable than others.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 7, 2013)

reddognoyz @ Sat Apr 06 said:


> . . . vilified like they're trying to sell sugar cereals to little kids.


What could you possibly mean by that??? :mrgreen:


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## dgburns (Apr 7, 2013)

Nick Phoenix @ Sat Apr 06 said:


> mk282 @ Sat Apr 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Nick Phoenix @ 6.4.2013 said:
> ...



please don't let some comments stop you from wanting to post.I think your say is as valid as anyone else's.

I am still surprised by the often times strange and negative comebacks some ppl post,different strokes I guess...


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## NYC Composer (Apr 7, 2013)

TheUnfinished @ Sun Apr 07 said:


> I don't think there'd be anything like the frustration there is with East West if people didn't love the sound quality of their products and think that a few simple business changes would change things for the better.



Exactly right.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 7, 2013)

Simon Ravn @ Fri Apr 05 said:


> *Anxiously awaiting Jay's response, telling us all that EW people are great and they don't have a general attitude problem, but mistakes do happen. That Mac isn't suited for audio software, that people will get mad if you give them a release date of PLAY, that PLAY was superior to Kontakt and still is in some way and so on and so on*



Sorry to disappoint you. I have recently discovered how cathartic it is to write a response you truly believe and then simply not post it.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Apr 10, 2013)

If the product doesn't work then fine. If the sound isn't what you are looking for then fine.

But I personally believe judging a company soley on customer service is not the best thing to do.

Also, when is comes to banning people on forums? I don't consider that customer service.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 10, 2013)

What do yo consider it, Nathan?


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## Sopranos (Apr 10, 2013)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Wed Apr 10 said:


> If the product doesn't work then fine. If the sound isn't what you are looking for then fine.
> 
> But I personally believe judging a company soley on customer service is not the best thing to do.
> 
> Also, when is comes to banning people on forums? I don't consider that customer service.



I would love to hear your take on how to judge a company then?

IMO, every company will have some technical difficulties, mishaps, etc... but its how they deal with it (customer service) that defines the differences between companies. In this market there are just too many competitors offering similar products. I think you have to stand out with customer service and support.

Also, what do you consider banning people on forums when they are discussing your products? How the admins service and discuss products of their own website forum is certainly customer service.

But I would love to hear your opinion (with all respect).


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## NYC Composer (Apr 10, 2013)

I spend a little time on the Cubase forums, checking out new ways to do things, soliciting help for problems, trying to offer help. It's lightly moderated and mostly a forum where users help users. The usual snarkiness exists, but it serves its purpose. I'm not sure what the purpose of the EW forum is-it seems more marketing and advertising oriented than help oriented. Happy shiny users holding hands.

The banning part is inexplicable to me, but once I figured out the forum deal, I just didn't bother with it at all. As disconcerting as I find it, that alone doesn't keep me from buying EW products. The grinding halt in software development has, though. I'm hoping both will improve.


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## David Gosnell (Apr 11, 2013)

Earlier today my attention was drawn to the post regarding the PocketBlakus freebie cello (stay with me - I'm on topic, honest! :wink: ) Blakus had posted an instrument he'd developed to the limit of his programming capabilities and with a little feedback from random users and input from guys who are more Kontakt savvy, they seem to have got to a version 1.6 that lots of people are very happy with. If Blakus now wanted to sell this instrument along the lines of the Embertone business model I'm sure he'd be quite successful.

I think there is a lesson here for all sample developers - open communication with random customers (not just your friends) can both create more saleable products (and with a higher potential price point) as well as engender brand loyalty and create valuable advocates.

Michael Eisner, the former CEO of Disney, is quoted as saying that "A brand is a living entity - and it is enriched or undermined cumulatively over time, the product of a thousand small gestures" That is why customer service and software reliability are so important, because each of their failings erase the value of every other positive deliverable.

You can spend many hours, employ many highly talented and creative people and produce a library with exquisite sounds and then throw all that value away with a single careless and arrogant posting on a public forum, or not responding to a support request.

I'm not really a passion person, I can't imagine myself responding to a forum post racing to defend a developer whose product I value - but I know I'm prepared to cut guys like Spitfire a little slack if their version 1 release is a little buggy because I feel their hearts are in the right place, that they will respond to feedback and there will be a timely V1.1 that irons out any kinks their users have found.

One of the issues with composer developers is that they naturally develop products that suit themselves and their friends (which is often reflected in both beta testing methodology and demo writing) - only when those products are released to random punters like us does it become apparent that there are some issues they didn't consider; brought about by different composing styles or equipment. 

And this is why a more open communication with the user-base (no matter how frustrating I'm sure that can sometimes be) can be of enormous value in the building of a successful brand. The equation is simple, you have a product to sell and the random punters have money you want - if you you don't want their money enough to cope with the grief, then I guess your business model and revenue stream will reflect that over time.

Like many others here, I think EW have created some excellent sounds - I am right now using their Yalli Tambur from RA in a project. I also have the Kontakt version loaded in parallel to compensate for some of Play's more random habits on notes I just can't get to work consistently. In almost every project I seem to find myself choosing an EW product as my go to, only to replace it somewhere along the road because I can't get it to do what I want it to do consistently. I absolutely agree that the passion regarding this issue lies in the frustration that the sounds are great - but the implementation is too unreliable for use in the professional environment (at least , unless you are successful enough to employ an assistant who will stay awake for 36 hours straight doing endless tweaks and retake bounces until they get a set of usable stems).

It is due to that long term and continuing frustration that I have stopped buying their products - the process of use is too frustrating and deadline threatening and the 'attitude' suggests I can't rely on it ever getting any better. Just as I now buy each Spitfire release without listening to the demos because I know it will both have good sounds and that any programming glitches will be quickly taken care of (sorry - picking on Paul because he's participated in the thread and needs some compensation for his random troll e-mails :wink: ) I now don't listen to EW demos and don't buy the products because I know those are sounds I will never be able to reliably re-create in my own studio.

EW are not alone in being a little too isolated from the random punters - but they do seem to stand out among sample library developers in this regard. The problem is that customer satisfaction is not only based on brand promise compared with the experience of use, it is also based on expectations; and it is now the likes of; Spitfire, CineSamples, SampleModelling, Embertone, 8Dio, Soundiron, Audiobro, Orchestral Tools and so forth (sorry, I'm sure I've left many other fine developers out) who are setting those expectations in the minds of us 'random punters' in terms of the way they communicate with their customer-base.

Hans Zimmer participates in this very forum, John Williams always comes across as modest, humble and appreciative of his audience - and his collaborators; "a thousand small gestures" - being successful in this business is about far more than talent, any brand with value is based on our willingness to effectively communicate with other humans.

To survive and prosper in this increasingly competitive environment, I think Mr. Rogers would do well to listen to Mr. Eisner and emulate Mr. Zimmer (though I understand that for percussion, Mr. Thomson already has that angle covered :D )


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## NYC Composer (Apr 11, 2013)

@David-you make some good points. As to the sounds and usability, I tend to print Play tracks to audio and keep the MIDI tracks in case of changes. I think the sounds are worth it.

I also find that for older libraries, Play is generally workable and reliable with a few quirks. The caveat for me is that when the session s really taxing the CPU of my older 8 core Mac or if I'm running close to all of my RAM, all bets are off.


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## David Gosnell (Apr 11, 2013)

For the EW libraries I have already bought, absolutely - I keep thinking to myself that the sound is great and that I should gain some value from my investment; but in reality, I care more about the quality of the sounds than clients do - and they certainly care about deadlines!

For some projects for example, only EW Choirs with Wordbuilder will do - but I know I have to bounce each phrase individually before I move on to the next or it will all end in tears. With HW strings I know I have to face the reality that it will only work right with low latency but that my Kontakt instruments will benefit from higher latencies - so that has to be bounced seperately. I love the sound of QL Pianos, but don't even go there because I know the number of bounces I will have to do before I get a single multi-microphone stem (LH & RH separately per mic position) with no pops & clicks and so on & so forth.

If Eduardo Tarilonte produced a Yalli Tambur instrument tomorrow my plastic would be out of my wallet so fast it would leave scorch marks though (Desert Strings Eduardo, and chance? :wink: ) - and that's the sad reality of where my head is at with EW at the moment, if I can live without it in my template - it's gone :cry:


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 11, 2013)

I was going to stay out of this thread but hey David, the same Mr. Eisner who when Disney films and stock were performing poorly nonetheless in addition to his huge salary callously still took the biggest bonus in corporate history while firing a bunch of talented workers? The one of whom a producer said, "When you negotiate with Disney, you are not dealing with Mickey Mouse. You are dealing with Uncle Scrooge."

That Michael Eisner? Pardon me, if I do not advise Doug to emulate that amoral jerk.


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## David Gosnell (Apr 11, 2013)

I'm not entirely sure how to respond other than "QED".

Still, give Doug his due, he knows how to make a culture permeate an entire organisation, which is always the most difficult element of successful branding!

I wouldn't necessarily invite Mr. Eisner over for dinner and I'm not sure we'd naturally be buddies, but In his 21 years at Disney, he transformed a film and theme park company with $3 billion in enterprise value into an international multimedia colossus valued at $60 billion - so I'd probably value his advice nonetheless


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## Diffusor (Apr 11, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> I was going to stay out of this thread but hey David, the same Mr. Eisner who when Disney films and stock were performing poorly nonetheless in addition to his huge salary callously still took the biggest bonus in corporate history while firing a bunch of talented workers? The one of whom a producer said, "When you negotiate with Disney, you are not dealing with Mickey Mouse. You are dealing with Uncle Scrooge."
> 
> That Michael Eisner? Pardon me, if I do not advise Doug to emulate that amoral jerk.




Well Doug definitely made Cello studios look like Disney land.


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## dannthr (Apr 11, 2013)

EW has been great to me.

I've never had the problems other people have experienced with customer service.

But, when I want serious customer service, I just contact somoene direct.

I've only had one post removed from their forums, and it was fair, as I mentioned a competing product.

The only reason I don't post on SOL as much any more is because I just don't use their products as much anymore.

If I created something that heavily used EW products, I would go post it there--until I do, I will post else where.

It's not about their customer service, for me, it's about the product.

I've been happy with my experience as a customer of EW.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 11, 2013)

David Gosnell @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> I wouldn't necessarily invite Mr. Eisner over for dinner and I'm not sure we'd naturally be buddies, but In his 21 years at Disney, he transformed a film and theme park company with $3 billion in enterprise value into an international multimedia colossus valued at $60 billion - so I'd probably value his advice nonetheless



Yes, and the Nazis made the trains run on time. 

And he did so by figuratively littering bodies of Disney employees. I had a good friend (now deceased) who was a Disney Imagineer, a job he loved, and what Eisner did when he got there was a travesty. He had some appalling stories.

If you like what Eisner did, Gordon Gecko must be your hero.

OK, I am out again, just could not let that stand unanswered.


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## David Gosnell (Apr 11, 2013)

Hi Jay,

I am sorry for what happened to your friend, many of us have experienced the feel of sharp steel between the shoulders in the workplace, and it sucks. 

I don't know Mr. Eisner, and were Mr. Katzenberg ever to hire me, I would expect him to replace me at the last minute with Mr. Zimmer without giving it a second thought because he would see that as the best way to make more money (and he might just be onto something there :wink: ). I believe Movie executives - even those who create work for children - have a pretty consistent reputation in regard of being ruthless.

To return to my point however, I believe in his views on the building and maintaining of a successful brand he was correct; do you believe he is wrong because he is (allegedly) an unpleasant person? That might explain why you believe I am wrong - because I have some issues with using your products.

(cue impromptu responses from fully satisfied customers... :roll: )


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 11, 2013)

David Gosnell @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> To return to my point however, I believe in his views on the building and maintaining of a successful brand he was correct; do you believe he is wrong because he is (allegedly) an unpleasant person? That might explain why you believe I am wrong - because I have some issues with using your products.
> 
> (cue impromptu responses from fully satisfied customers... :roll: )



I judge by what people do, not what they say. Eisner eventually made the payments to stockholders go up, but if anything he DAMAGED the Disney brand.

Disney was revered when I was growing up and Walt ran it.. Now it is seen by many as a greedy corporation whose best movies are made for them by others, like Pixar.

By the way, nice that you simply dismiss the positive experiences with EW related by guys like Dan with an eye roll.

OK, now I really am out because although I know Larry's intentions were sincere, any discussion of EW never ends up "balanced" here. There are members here who post positive things on SOL who will not do so in this forum, they tell me in PMs, because they simply do not want to deal with the static they will get for doing so.


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## David Gosnell (Apr 11, 2013)

To avoid derailing Larry's topic further (though I have tried to keep returning to it) I shall go for the cathartic-type response. But I agree that it is unfortunate that EW can't get a fair shake in a forum where those who aren't on message can't be banned :D


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## dannthr (Apr 11, 2013)

I ain't afraid of static--bring it!

It's not like I don't believe other people have problems with them, it's just not been my experience.

My experience has been pretty solid.

I think we have all proved, in our own words, time and again, that VI-Control is chock full of whiney babies, and you know what? I'm one of them!

That's what we love about this forum, we can come here and indulge and feel comfortable griping about the most ridiculous things because as working composers we have to deal with the most ridiculous things.

We work in a job where the stupidest minutiae prevents us from producing as quickly or programming as efficiently or running as smoothly as we DREAM we should be.

And we're faced with hard hitting salesmen who promise THE NEXT BIG LANDMARK in what we do.

So yeah, I'm happy that VI-Control is there for us when we're just so frustrated by process we slam our stupid mice on the desk and scream FLUX YOU, ProTools, Flux you Cubase, Fluxin' flutter flux, FLUX YOU PLAY, WHY YOU CRASH? WHY? WHAT THE FLUX?

It's software, and software does stuff sometimes we don't want it to, and we get frustrated--and if we couldn't vent on Vi-Control, then damn it, none of us would have working computer mice.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 11, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> OK, now I really am out because although I know Larry's intentions were sincere, any discussion of EW never ends up "balanced" here.



I know you're out, but...

I'm curious. What's your explanation for why every discussion at VI-C is unbalanced, as you see it? Why is EW uniquely picked on, if it is not because a disproportionally large number of people have negative experiences? Is there some kind of conspiracy at work?


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## David Gosnell (Apr 11, 2013)

Cheers Dan,

I wasn't intentionally referring to your post and certainly meant no offence - I was merely experiencing deja vu about where the discussion I was participating in was likely to head.

I agree that often it is composer against machine with no team for us to share our whines with and forums such as this can be an excellent 'relief valve'. My intention was to try and offer some constructive advice - guess I'll quote Drucker or Porter next time around (unless anyone here has history with them I should know about?)

My experience is that EW products work well for a lot of people and it seems to depend on the kind of thing you are trying to get it to do or the set up you are running it on that causes (or not) the issues. To be balanced, I have had issues with Adagio strings - but maintain a continuing dialogue with Troels that keeps me optimistic I'll be using it successfully at some point in the future.

I guess I just feel that stifling or 'managing' discussion and communication is not a good long term strategy for maintaining and building a successful brand.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 11, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > OK, now I really am out because although I know Larry's intentions were sincere, any discussion of EW never ends up "balanced" here.
> ...



There are several different issues that get conflated, in my PERSONAL view.

1. Years ago, when Play was first introduced and there were issues, many at EW ascribed it to user error, and sometimes it was and sometimes it was not. I got this job because I could pretty much diagnose when it was and wasn't, like the whole Play/Kontakt memory server conflict issue and was discussing that on forums.

But sometimes it was not user error or system specific, and the perception that EW was blaming the user rather than being candid about the issues left a bad taste in people's mouth. So EW owns that.

But Play has gotten much better, to the point now where it usually IS either user error or system specific IMO and there are people still nursing the older grudge who will not concede it either out of bad feelings or in SOME cases, ignorance of how it has changed.

2. Two people who were associated with EW, out of good intentions but poor judgment, went on GS and posed as people who were just users and defended Play. They were discovered and it led to people distrusting EW. Doug told me he had _nothing_ to do with it and one of the people involved told me the same thing, that he did it on his own misguided initiative. But it hurt, no doubt.

.3 The SOL forum is heavily moderated and nowadays people do not like to be told what they can and cannot do. You already know my views on that subject.

4. People would file support tickets and they would go unanswered for too long. That is why my job was created I doubt that anyone here or on GS can say that if they forwarded an issue to me, I did not do my very best to get them help or at least an answer, usually within 24 hours, weekends and holidays excepted.

EW is not uniquely picked on. Years ago, a thread bout Garritan would have produced similar results, or Kirk Hunter, and there even was some nasty stiff about Miroslav.

I have said before that there are people here who I respect who routinely disagree with me, and that is fine. You Guy, are a perfect example of this. But there are lot of people here who still have the high school mentality of wanting to hang with the "popular kids" so if someone makes a negative statement, they jump in and pile on. Sometimes it turns out they actually have no experience with the product they are dissing and sometimes, frankly, they truly are ineffective users because they want the product to work the way THEY want the product to work, and not the way it actually works best. I am sure that the CS Mikes will agree with at least the last part of that statement.

In the end, I simply no longer care about what most people here think. I am here to get people help, and sure, I will come into a thread and debunk statements I believe to be factually incorrect, but my days of trying to "change hearts and minds" are over because you cannot change either when they are closed and there are few here who do not have their opinions now carved in stone. I find it very revealing thatI have 3 times extended an open invitation to my place to see my system in action for those in LA who are skeptical and other than 2 of my friends, not ONE EW detractor has taken me up on that. Not ONE!

So Larry's good intentions with this thread have come to naught, as I told him in a PM would be the case. Guy, as you have in your signature, "people believe what they want to believe."

And now. I am truly done. (Cue all the people who will now make nasty personal attacks on me.)


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## TheUnfinished (Apr 11, 2013)

I'm not sure it's true that people's minds can't be changed around on this one. There is a clear consistent line through all of the EW threads that suggests people REALLY want EW to sort things out because the sound quality of the libraries is so good.

But, some people don't trust EW because of the things mentioned above. Trust is an INCREDIBLY valuable property and it is hard won back when it is lost. You have to go above and beyond. Does EW do this? I really don't think so.

Having said that I absolutely adore Silk and have very few problems with it (as long as I ignore Play's dire warnings of memory being low when it isn't). But I don't trust EW and they aren't so far ahead of the competition that I can overlook it. I'm the opposite of what other people of said elsewhere, I don't care how good a product sounds if I don't like the company/people who make it. Maybe I do myself a disservice with this attitude? But I am comfortable with my position. There is only one other developer I don't trust. So it's not as if I go looking for problems!


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## Sopranos (Apr 11, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> ...



See thats just it... you can't come in and "debunk statements that you believe to be factually incorrect". Thats not even possible. People's opinions and experiences CANT be incorrect. They are personal experiences and opinions... its not a right or wrong thing or fact or fiction. It is what it is.

Also, you keep referring to "the system in action" and inviting people to see yours etc. What does your system have to do with EW customer service, support, or attitude? You only want to talk about the technical capabilities of EW and if the product works, etc. What about the other end of the business called customer service and support? Who's in charge of talking about that?

Also you mention the "static" folks get for saying something positive about EW. Or an unbalanced bias against EW. Dan posted his positive experience with EW and I didn't see any static against him for that. People are posting their experiences with EW and since it is heavily lopsided you just call it a conspiracy or people jumping on the wagon.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 11, 2013)

I was determined to show pros and cons about EW in a balanced manner, and I was more or less moderating this thread to make sure it didnt turn into a bashfest. I have listed EW's the positives as I see them. What you TOLD me, Jay, is that it wouldn't work out, but you would stay out of it _because your presence would be polarizing_. You were right, but- you...just...couldn't, could you? You didn't stay out if it even before your objection to the Disney analogy- which in actuality wasn't a good enough reason for you to enter, especially when, again- you _specifically stated you wouldn't_.

I challenge you to debunk one statement I've made in this thread. I challenge you to find places where I've let it or helped it become a bashfest. I disagree that there is specific bias against EW that they haven't earned. I think next time you make a statement like 'I'm going to stay out of it' you should be a man of your word. You say you think I was sincere in my effort, but it seems you really don't believe that as you have now made efforts to derail it. Good luck with that. So far you've been "done" and returned 3 times. Why don't you fish or cut bait? I'm going to stay in this thread as long as people want to comment, and I'm going to try and keep it fair.

Btw- I've intimated it but to be perfectly clear- i have been a big EW supporter, both with my money and my praise, in the past. I want to be abe to be that again. I want Doug to take a look around and realize his business would take a leap forward with the implementation of a few changes. He built a great company. It can be so much better.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 11, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> I was determined to show pros and cons about EW in a balanced manner, and I was more or less moderating this thread to make sure it didnt turn into a bashfest. I have listed EW's the positives as I see them. What you TOLD me, Jay, is that it wouldn't work out, but you would stay out of it _because your presence would be polarizing_. You were right, but- you...just...couldn't, could you? You didn't stay out if it even before your objection to the Disney analogy- which in actuality wasn't a good enough reason for you to enter, especially when, again- you _specifically stated you wouldn't_.
> 
> I challenge you to debunk one statement I've made in this thread. I challenge you to find places where I've let it or helped it become a bashfest. I disagree that there is specific bias against EW that they haven't earned. I think next time you make a statement like 'I'm going to stay out of it' you should be a man of your word. You say you think I was sincere in my effort, but it seems you really don't believe that as you have now made efforts to derail it. Good luck with that. So far you've been "done" and returned 3 times. Why don't you fish or cut bait? I'm going to stay in this thread as long as people want to comment, and I'm going to try and keep it fair.



You are right, while it was my intention, to perhaps my discredit I couldn't. I made no criticism of you other than to say that despite your intentions and best efforts it would turn into a EW bash fest, and it did. If you don't see that, it is because you do not want to. 

You are not a moderator and therefore have no power to control it and so your "going to try and keep it fair" is totally ineffectual. This thread has IMHO been no better or worse than a dozen less well-intentioned ones. It has generated no new light, only additional heat.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 11, 2013)

I completely disagree with you, and from any logical standpoint, the person with bias between the two of us is you.


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## Sopranos (Apr 11, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > I was determined to show pros and cons about EW in a balanced manner, and I was more or less moderating this thread to make sure it didnt turn into a bashfest. I have listed EW's the positives as I see them. What you TOLD me, Jay, is that it wouldn't work out, but you would stay out of it _because your presence would be polarizing_. You were right, but- you...just...couldn't, could you? You didn't stay out if it even before your objection to the Disney analogy- which in actuality wasn't a good enough reason for you to enter, especially when, again- you _specifically stated you wouldn't_.
> ...



I just don't understand this at all. Where is the bash fest, Jay? Who is flaming or bashing EW? I think you are confusing negative feedback and experiences with "bashing". I guess we have very different definitions of bashing. To me, bashing is unwarranted bullying.... and what I see is personal opinions and experiences. In fact, since you mentioned it so many times, I started to wonder about your conspiracy. I did a little due diligence and researched a good amount of previous posts made by those who are the most active in the so-called "EW bashing". Did you know that these same forum members have given praise to many developers many more times than the negative comments here? I think its safe to say that they are not just rude people looking to bash EW for no reason (or just to jump on some wagon).

You even said it yourself a few posts back - EW earned their bad reputation for several reasons you pointed out. The difference is you feel like they have all been addressed to your liking and most others (from what I've seen) do not.


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## sin(x) (Apr 11, 2013)

I hardly see anything in this thread that'd remotely warrant the term “bash fest”. Except if your definition of that term happens to be “several people expressing their discontent with my employer's products and/or his way of treating them”.

The politics subreddit before an election is a bash fest. A PC FPS gamer's forum after a PS4 keynote is a bash fest. This is an exchange of opinions with occasional after-hours levels of snarkiness at best.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 11, 2013)

@Sopranos- I'm curious. If EW were to improve Play and change their "attitude"- would you be interested in buying their products?


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## Sopranos (Apr 11, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> @Sopranos- I'm curious. If EW were to improve Play and change their "attitude"- would you be interested in buying their products?



Yep. I wouldn't bother with any of this if it wasn't for my frustration that I want to buy their products but feel like it would be a very bad decision on my part right now.

In fact, for the most part the "system" from a technical standpoint has been pretty stable for me. I have had more support tickets from other developers than EW, yet, I would still buy from those other said developers in a second based on their approach and how they deal with it. Based on my experience with EW I cannot justify another purchase - unless, of course, I was convinced that things had changed.

At the end of the day I'm just your average consumer. I read reviews, I read forums, I do a reasonable amount of homework and research the products I am interested in. I don't think of myself as going overboard or a product nazi before buying. I take reviews with a grain of salt cause I know most of the time consumers don't take the time to write unless its a complaint. But with that, I tend to trust a large sample... in other words, I don't buy into the conspiracy theory. At least not in this case where I truly believe we are dealing with professionals for the most part. Furthermore, this is not a case where I simply believe what others are saying - I experienced it first hand.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 11, 2013)

sin(x) @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> I hardly see anything in this thread that'd remotely warrant the term “bash fest”. Except if your definition of that term happens to be “several people expressing their discontent with my employer's products and/or his way of treating them”.
> 
> The politics subreddit before an election is a bash fest. A PC FPS gamer's forum after a PS4 keynote is a bash fest. This is an exchange of opinions with occasional after-hours levels of snarkiness at best.



A fair question. Here is what I all bashing (you may not):

Multiple threads appear with EW in the title. A forum member enters all 6 threads and essentially posts the same negative comments in all of them.

I consider that bashing and when multiple forum members do it, then it _really_ is bashing.


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## germancomponist (Apr 11, 2013)

I love my old EWQLSO Platinum orchestra library.


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## David Gosnell (Apr 11, 2013)

I have to disagree that this thread has had no value. I have suspected for some time that EW has taken the thousands of dollars I have spent with them for granted, doesn't really care whether or not I'm happy with the product once they have my money and believe anyone who does not have a perfect user experience with their product is a moron with the intellectual capacity of an Ewok.

At least now I don't need to wonder any more.

Jay, the fact that you have been hired to help repair EW's reputation (though I suspect Doug would have got better results hiring his cat) and yet you have no concept of what is in your employer's best interest when representing their views, frankly beggars belief.

I am not in the habit of being deliberately rude, but frankly the breathtaking contempt you have shown the members of this forum - all of whom are either current or potential EW customers makes it worth this one exception.

I would like to think were you to have represented Disney in the same cavalier manner in a forum populated by Disney customers - that would have been one dismissal for which Mr. Eisner would have been entirely justified.

I truly hope your 'opinions' are not representative of the majority of EW employees and collaborators.


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## Sopranos (Apr 11, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> sin(x) @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > I hardly see anything in this thread that'd remotely warrant the term “bash fest”. Except if your definition of that term happens to be “several people expressing their discontent with my employer's products and/or his way of treating them”.
> ...



But, Jay - weren't you in all 6 threads making comments, too?

Is it only bashing if the comments are negative? You get to rebut with positive statements but we can't share our negative experiences? Hmmm I don't know about that one.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 11, 2013)

Sopranos @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > @Sopranos- I'm curious. If EW were to improve Play and change their "attitude"- would you be interested in buying their products?
> ...



Right-so like me, you haven't burned any bridges-you're just hoping for some reasonable change.


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## Sopranos (Apr 11, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> Sopranos @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> ...



Nope I certainly haven't burned any bridges and I definitely hope for some reasonable change.

But I honestly do wonder and feel if EW wants to burn bridges with me. In other words, I get the feel of "we don't want your business". And thats the main problem I am having with EW. I don't need to feel all warm and fuzzy but at least I should feel like they care about my business.

I don't know. I am (maybe unfortunately for me) more experienced in business than I am in orchestral composition. And their approach simply baffles me.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 11, 2013)

Sopranos @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > sin(x) @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> ...



i don't think there is such a thing as "positive bashing" is there?  

And I only go to those threads to respond. the person who throws the first punch is always more guilty IMHO.

And of course, EW wants your business.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 11, 2013)

This whole thing points out exactly why EW needs to make their forum more open. They can blame VI Control all they want, but the truth is that many, if not most, of these threads start with the words "I was banned at EW" or something similar.

This is truly a "duh" situation. If you ban someone or delete his post, then what the heck do they _think_ is going to happen???

If only they would just let people say their piece there. At least there they can take at least some control of the conversation so it doesn't get out of hand. Maybe have Admin say something like, _"Hey, you're right. We're working on that."_ It's so damn simple. Everybody would be happier.

People can forgive delays. They can forgive bugs (if the company is honest about them.) But silencing someone? This is the result. The anger is doubled.

People just want to be heard. Silence them in one place, and they'll just find another place where they'll be even louder. It isn't VI Control's fault that people are angry with how they're treated by EW.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 11, 2013)

I have yet to see a "I will never again buy an EW product' statement in this thread (although I can't say no one feels that way, obviously). My speculation is that there is widespread hope for change. The general tenor of this thread is hopeful for change. The idea that there has been widespread "bashing" is nonsense and the very specific view of a company employee. A corporate policy that sends its people out to deny any customer problem and decries or bans anyone who expresses dissent is not a positive one IMO. Change is not impossible. Only things that are perfect never have to change. I know of no such perfection.


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## sin(x) (Apr 11, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ 2013-04-11 said:


> i don't think there is such a thing as "positive bashing" is there?



But that's the issue right there. Forum members are merely doing what they always do, they comment on issues that affect them. Just as those who play the drums turn up in threads about drum patterns, and those with a degree in economics turn up in business threads, and those who are early adopters of some new library turn up in threads about that library, and those who got hired by a developer to do customer relations turn up in threads about that developer… those who have had either exceptionally good or bad experience with EW (and thus are invested in the topic) will turn up in a thread about what EW does right and wrong, only _now_ you identify it as a “bash fest”.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 11, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> I have yet to see a "I will never again buy an EW product' statement in this thread (although I can't say no one feels that way, obviously). My speculation is that there is widespread hope for change. The general tenor of this thread is hopeful for change. The idea that there has been widespread "bashing" is nonsense and the very specific view of a company employee. A corporate policy that sends its people out to deny any customer problem and decries or bans anyone who expresses dissent is not a positive one IMO. Change is not impossible. Only things that are perfect never have to change. I know of no such perfection.



There is no "corporate policy that sends its people out to deny any customer problem and decries or bans anyone who expresses dissent." It is what the nature of the dissent is and how it is expressed.

EW runs its forum the way it runs its forum, and I doubt it will change. 

And I doubt Doug is ever going to tell me, "Jay, go on those forums and tell them how very much we value their brilliant feedback, we learn so much from them, etc." because after 25 years of phenomenal success doing this business, he simply doesn't believe it and it is just not who he is as a person to do that. Neither I suspect do Nick and TJ (and privately, some of the developers who write it do not _really_ believe it either.) 

So if your "hope" is that either of those things are going to happen, well, I am not consigliere and I suppose it is possible, but I doubt it. 

As for me, _always_ admit when there is an issue that I know is empirically a EW Play or library issue and not a customer one. I have been _totally_ candid about Play's relative lack of efficiency on the Mac compared to the PC. I have been _totally_ candid about how demanding of resources HS Diamond and Gold are.

Personally I have no problem with dissent. Guy Rowland and Daryl for example disagree with me regularly but I do not remember our ever having a harsh word for each other because while they may disagree, they do not make a campaign out of it, the way some do here. I DO have a problem with people who jump into every single EW thread repeating the same comments about why EW is such a terrible company and why people should not buy EW products, and while there may not be that going on in this thread, a simple forum search will reveal lots of them. I think its childish. I am sorry if that offends anyone, that is not my intention, but "venting"is the adult version of a temper tantrum IMHO and I don't respect it.

Somebody, by the way, point me to even a single comment in this thread that makes a point has not been made multiple times in other threads. You won't find one. It is just more of the same, a little milder, but more of the same.

And Larry, you seem to think I am accusing you of something but the only thing I am disagreeing with you about is seeing value in this, where I do not.


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## 667 (Apr 11, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> I DO have a problem with people who jump into every single EW thread repeating the same comments about why EW is such a terrible company and why people should not buy EW products, and while there may not be that going on in this thread, a simple forum search will reveal lots of them. I think its childish. I am sorry if that offends anyone, that is not my intention, but "venting"is the adult version of a temper tantrum IMHO and I don't respect it.


People do it because EW sometimes treats its customers poorly. So, any potential customers deserve to be warned off, really. They sure aren't going to get anything like a balanced / honest perspective reading the EW forums. If EW wasn't so ban-happy people wouldn't come here to complain. But it's their only option. So once again EW policies create the very problem they complain about.

Me, I'm still waiting for updates to HS to fix some of those broken-out-of-the-box patches. I've been waiting since 2011! I want to hear what those "smoother" Cellos are supposed to sound like dammit!!!


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 11, 2013)

667 @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> Me, I'm still waiting for updates to HS to fix some of those broken-out-of-the-box patches. I've been waiting since 2011! I want to hear what those "smoother" Cellos are supposed to sound like dammit!!!



I think HS has about 500 patches each for 1st Vlns, 2nd Vlns, Vlas, Celli, Basses, and Full Strings. So yeah, some of those patches may have issues 

If you have specific ones that you consider "broken" (as opposed to do not work the way you want them to work) then feel free to let me know and I will check them out.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 11, 2013)

I'm so sorry, Guy. I somehow clicked "Edit" instead of "Reply" and I deleted your post. It's particularly bad because yours was a very thoughtful (and not quick to type) post.

F#$%! F#$%! F#$%!!!

Please accept my apologies.

- Mike Greene (A clumsy-fingered moderator)


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 11, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> 1. Even Jay agrees that Doug isn't going to start listening to customers or finding any value in their feedback.
> 
> 2. My own view is that there is no such thing as a valued customer in the EW world.
> 
> 3.EDIT - And I know you really do your best Jay, given the circumstances you are in.



1. Guy, I didn't say that nor did I mean to imply it. Clearly, there is feedback that he does value and believe me, every issue that I can confirm that I think is important, i pass on. 

2,. Not true. EW values its customers greatly, but occasionally a handful are such colossal pains in the butt that keeping their business is just more trouble than it is worth. But I can only think of one individual where Doug flat out told me, "I don't want his business!"

3. Thank you.

BTW folks, I think some people may think they have been "banned" when actually all that has happened is that your post has been moderated. If you think you have been banned, look up your name and see if it has the word "banned" next to it. if it does not, you have not been banned.

if you do see that and it has happened in the last year, please let me know so that I have a realistic picture.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 11, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> I'm so sorry, Guy. I somehow clicked "Edit" instead of "Reply" and I deleted your post. It's particularly bad because yours was a very thoughtful (and not quick to type) post.
> 
> F#$%! F#$%! F#$%!!!
> 
> ...



Mike, I think you should tender your resignation as moderator immediately and designate me as your replacement. :twisted:


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## NYC Composer (Apr 11, 2013)

Being that you're only one person with one opinion regardless of your forum name, Jay, yep, we'll continue to disagree. I've never been big on acceptance of things that could be changed for the better, so I'll keep asking for change in a civil manner and try to put forth a balanced view of a company that I admire in many ways. If I didn't and wasn't a major owner, I woudn't bother. You, on the other hand, may feel free to try and derail any objective outlook in your usual spirited defense of your employer. I assume EW likes it that way, though to me, it's starting to look more and more counterproductive.

@Guy-i'm sure you're right, however, see above


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## Mike Greene (Apr 11, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> Mike, I think you should tender your resignation as moderator immediately and designate me as your replacement. :twisted:


I have a better idea - Tell Doug I'll resign as moderator here if he hires you as moderator at SOL and gives you a little more power. Most of the EW trouble we see here could have been resolved there first. 8)


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 11, 2013)

Mike Greene @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike, I think you should tender your resignation as moderator immediately and designate me as your replacement. :twisted:
> ...



Doug already asked me if i wanted to take on Admin. >8o but that does not mean the guidelines would be changed.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 11, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> Mike Greene @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> ...



Unfortunately, it's the guidelines that are problematiic.


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## Vision (Apr 11, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> Somebody, by the way, point me to even a single comment in this thread that makes a point has not been made multiple times in other threads. You won't find one. It is just more of the same, a little milder, but more of the same.
> 
> And Larry, you seem to think I am accusing you of something but the only thing I am disagreeing with you about is seeing value in this, where I do not.



Ok... you have to realize that sometimes this is how you get HEARD until change occurs. I encourage people to post on every thread until your fingers fall off.. especially if you are making sense. Yes, some of the threads have blatant bashing. But many, maaany times the bashing (which it really isn't) has been justified. 

Every EW thread needs passionate.. but thoughtful, and reasonable perspectives. To tell you the truth, EW should benefiting from all of this excellent, honest, and free feedback. And that's what I see here in this thread. Great thread btw Larry. 

Maybe by some slim chance, Doug will take a nice long look at a thread or two on this forum (since there are so many), and actually think about how he is running his company.


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## Dean (Apr 11, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> Doug already asked me if i wanted to take on Admin. >8o but that does not mean the guidelines would be changed.



Do it!If not for us,do it for Hans,..all these EW threads must be stealing his thunder. :wink: D


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## NYC Composer (Apr 11, 2013)

Vision @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Somebody, by the way, point me to even a single comment in this thread that makes a point has not been made multiple times in other threads. You won't find one. It is just more of the same, a little milder, but more of the same.
> ...



Thank you for seeing my motive clearly, Peter. I know you are a major EW user as well. We share the same desire-that things at EW will change because ...well...they should.


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## 667 (Apr 11, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> If you have specific ones that you consider "broken" (as opposed to do not work the way you want them to work) then feel free to let me know and I will check them out.


"Celli Leg BC Slower Ni.ewi" and "Celli Leg BC Slower SM Ni.ewi" are both missing the legato/transition samples. So there is no bow-change "slower" legato currently available in Hollywood Strings. Just Slurred is working.

There are plenty similar bugs in the other instruments, unfortunately. Too many for what was a $1000+ strings library at the time, and requiring expensive hardware upgrades (SSD's and RAM) on top of that.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 11, 2013)

667 @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > If you have specific ones that you consider "broken" (as opposed to do not work the way you want them to work) then feel free to let me know and I will check them out.
> ...


I'll check those out.


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## Sopranos (Apr 11, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > I have yet to see a "I will never again buy an EW product' statement in this thread (although I can't say no one feels that way, obviously). My speculation is that there is widespread hope for change. The general tenor of this thread is hopeful for change. The idea that there has been widespread "bashing" is nonsense and the very specific view of a company employee. A corporate policy that sends its people out to deny any customer problem and decries or bans anyone who expresses dissent is not a positive one IMO. Change is not impossible. Only things that are perfect never have to change. I know of no such perfection.
> ...



Yikes. This is not what I wanted to see from a company that I was hoping to see change from.

But it does confirm the very attitude I thought I was smelling. I kinda figured it was Dougs way or the highway with no real regard for the customers. He's not looking for feedback or care how we feel about how they can improve. Like it his way or don't buy. Thats his position as far as I can tell.

But I got the message. I will continue not to buy and will advise others who are inquiring that there are much better options, IMO. Call it bashing, call it flaming, etc. But I'll just go on calling it advice.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 11, 2013)

Sopranos @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> ...



I see it as counterproductive as well, especially since Jay apparently speaks for the company. Still, doesn't distract from the same themes-great products, software that needs an update, better customer communication required, etc.


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## passenger57 (Apr 11, 2013)

Darn, at first glance I thought this thread was titled, 'A balanced look at EQ'

Wanted to pick up some tips! 

P.S. - I use EW everyday, sounds beautiful to me. I haven't had issues with Play since it went to v3. End of story.


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## David Gosnell (Apr 11, 2013)

Am I the only one who keeps being reminded of those 'factual entertainment' TV series in which business gurus go in to save a once great business fallen on hard times.

They spend the first 20 minutes with their jaws on the floor as the employees and owner share their firmly held beliefs, while the TV audience watch in cringing horror through their fingers. From that point on it is clear what needs to be fixed, but will the guru get the business to understand where they're going wrong before the repo men arrive.....?


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 12, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> I'm so sorry, Guy. I somehow clicked "Edit" instead of "Reply" and I deleted your post. It's particularly bad because yours was a very thoughtful (and not quick to type) post.
> 
> F#$%! F#$%! F#$%!!!
> 
> ...



Ha ha ! No worries... that gives me a great forum idea though. Every post you make gets held in a buffer for 12 hours. It then gets auto-deleted unless you press a button that says "uh.... are you REALLY sure you wanna post that?"


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 12, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > My own view is that there is no such thing as a valued customer in the EW world.
> ...



Honestly, truly, I think the problem is far wider than this. Although the recent spate of threads here may not have had much that is "new", there have been plenty of examples of long standing customers treated extremely badly at the forums, whether they be banned or very heavily moderated. Of course the stock reply is that it's EW's forum, they can do as they choose, but this is the fallout.

I was particularly glum when posting last night, especially when I read that you thought it was very unlikely that the forum policy would change. If you could take up just a handful of cases posted here with the notorious "Admin", and if that were to inform a slightly more enlightened policy going forward, it would be thing of wonder and beauty. As it is, it's all too easy to form conclusions like mine that everyone is one critical post away from exile, and that there is never any redress.

However, to end on a gloomier note - Mike Green made a great post yesterday about how simple it would be for EW to improve their image. This has been obvious for years. I've always believed that a company's ethos is dictated by the leaders and trickles down. This long-standing attitude reminds me of House MD's famous quote that "people don't change" - and how that, while those people keep running companies, companies don't either.


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## Arbee (Apr 12, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Fri Apr 12 said:


> I've always believed that a company's ethos is dictated by the leaders and trickles down.


Yep, company culture is created by the personality and behaviour of its leader(s), and you can't change culture with words - nuff said.

.


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## procreative (Apr 12, 2013)

I will give you an example of how I got banned from the forum:

When they were promoting the imminent release of HOW, they did their usual prelaunch PR post. They created a pre-launch price which had to be taken up before release (and no actual date was given, just that it would end on release).

Many people posted asking for more detail, walkthroughs etc, particularly in light of the fact that this coincided with the fallout with Nick and Doug. People were rightly concerned about who was involved in its development/production.

So many many posts were made unanswered in the main or with cryptic responses from "admin". Now for some reason two rival products were launching at the same time CineWinds and Berlin Woodwinds.

I got banned because I pointed out that these developers had numerous walkthroughs of their product showing the features and articulations and bemoaning the fact that East West had one video with a brief playthrough of Sustain patches.

Reason: too much negativity! (real reason probably mentioning rival developers).

For me this is the number one issue I have with East West: they frequently offer prelaunch promos and expect buyers to take a leap without any product detail. (then offer a lower price later anyway in a sale thus making you feel shafted). 

However in this case buyers were rightly concerned due to the fallout and uncertainty created by Nick and Doug's public legal battle.

I do like their products but like many find their attitude to constructive criticism and the memory footprint of their player the issues.

One last thing, advice to other buyers: think very carefully about buying the Diamond versions. In my opinion the only 1 of the 3 Hollywood that really offer noticeable differences between Mic positions is HOW.

HS has such slight EQ changes between Mic positions, the Main and Surround offer very little as the Ambience of the studio it is recorded in has very little air (unlike the air in Spitfire's products recorded in Air!).


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## Cat (Apr 12, 2013)

I personally love the Hollywood Brass surround (or vintage) mics; mixing them in makes a big difference! Also adding close mics for the short articulations is great.



procreative @ Fri Apr 12 said:


> One last thing, advice to other buyers: think very carefully about buying the Diamond versions. In my opinion the only 1 of the 3 Hollywood that really offer noticeable differences between Mic positions is HOW.
> 
> HS has such slight EQ changes between Mic positions, the Main and Surround offer very little as the Ambience of the studio it is recorded in has very little air (unlike the air in Spitfire's products recorded in Air!).


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## procreative (Apr 12, 2013)

Take it back about Brass, yes tonally they are quite different. However for me the Surround does not have as much Ambience as the Mic position suggests.

If you look at the Manual, it shows the Mic position as being in the Gallery of the auditorium but as the EW HW series was recorded at EW Studios there is no Gallery and no real Ambience.

Also Diamond is 24 Bit with no option to run 16 Bit, quite a jump in resource requirements.

I do like the HW series, just pointing out that it lacks some ambience (unlike SO which had the opposite issue in that it had no real Dry option).


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 12, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> especially since Jay apparently speaks for the company. .



Guys, I only ask one thing if you want me to be continue to be candid with you speaking as a fellow composer and sample library user and not just as an EW rep:

I make it a point to be really clear when I am speaking as an EW rep and when I am just giving a personal opinion. 

When I write something that says" and I doubt Doug is ever going to tell me" or "So if your "hope" is that either of those things are going to happen, well, I am not consigliere and I suppose it is possible, but I doubt it." I am CLEARLY giving my personal opinion, which could be wrong.

If you cannot or are unwilling to make any separation, then it will reduce my role here to simply giving you just the party line, which limits my ability IMHO to help me help you.

My position is unique because I am a part time employee who is also still a composer so I come here wearing 2 hats, which allows me to see things both from the company's view and from your varying views. Please help me keep it that way by not commenting on things that are CLEARLY me stating a personal opinion as company policy. I know you are all smart enough to make that distinction.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 12, 2013)

667 @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> 1. "Celli Leg BC Slower Ni.ewi" and "Celli Leg BC Slower SM Ni.ewi" are both missing the legato/transition samples. So there is no bow-change "slower" legato currently available in Hollywood Strings. Just Slurred is working.
> 
> 2. There are plenty similar bugs in the other instruments, unfortunately. Too many for what was a $1000+ strings library at the time, and requiring expensive hardware upgrades (SSD's and RAM) on top of that.



1. Yes, those don't sound right to me either. I will report them.

2. I think that what HS taught the developers was that they perhaps created too many patches in their wish to cover every contingency. There are 14 in that folder alone and app 230 cello patches by my count. HB and HOW have considerably fewer.

So "too many" in a library with that many patches is a subjective judgement that you are of course entitled to make, but as a user I find that with app. 10 carefully chosen patches per section I can do 90% of what I would ever want to do, so I do not reach that same conclusion. Most of the time I use 6.

Also, with the possible exception of VSL (which is a totally different kind of sound) does any other library give you as many that do work?

But please, feel free to continue to advise me of the broken patches. I have started a list and when there is a sufficient number in my judgement, I will rattle their cage pass them on.


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## 667 (Apr 12, 2013)

You do have a point Jay-- but the reason I say "too many" is because I keep finding them, and I keep finding the same ones over and over, because I forget which of the Violas have missing RR's for example. So I end up wasting time tracking down weird little patch bugs whenever "something doesn't sound right here". Whereas if EW was updating the patches from time to time (again, last one was November 2011) then by now most of them would be fixed. 

I think HS would definitely benefit from a revised patch set to simplify the whole thing. e.g. a shorts patch that has tightness mapped to modwheel and dynamics on velocity rather than both tight and loose patches. Ditto the "slower" Cello patches-- why not have a button or keyswitch for "bow change" and then a knob for "transition speed" in a single unified patch? I think this is a case where Kontakt would be better than Play since it does seem to offer better script-based intelligence. I think HS could really shine if it had more programming logic behind the scenes to make it a more expressive, playable instrument. I think the patches took too much of a EWQLSO/VSL approach whereas newer products are focusing less on having many separate articulations and more on integrating them into single instrument(s).

Anyway I know Kontakt is of course a non-starter so I'll leave it there. 

One thing I will say about HS is that it nails "the sound" 100%. I was watching Prometheus the other day and the cellos in that score sound just like HS. The timbre is dead on.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 12, 2013)

667 @ Fri Apr 12 said:


> 1. You do have a point Jay-- but the reason I say "too many" is because I keep finding them, and I keep finding the same ones over and over, because I forget which of the Violas have missing RR's for example. So I end up wasting time tracking down weird little patch bugs whenever "something doesn't sound right here". Whereas if EW was updating the patches from time to time (again, last one was November 2011) then by now most of them would be fixed.
> 
> 2. I think HS would definitely benefit from a revised patch set to simplify the whole thing. e.g. a shorts patch that has tightness mapped to modwheel and dynamics on velocity rather than both tight and loose patches. Ditto the "slower" Cello patches-- why not have a button or keyswitch for "bow change" and then a knob for "transition speed" in a single unified patch? I think this is a case where Kontakt would be better than Play since it does seem to offer better script-based intelligence. I think HS could really shine if it had more programming logic behind the scenes to make it a more expressive, playable instrument. I think the patches took too much of a EWQLSO/VSL approach whereas newer products are focusing less on having many separate articulations and more on integrating them into single instrument(s).
> 
> 3. One thing I will say about HS is that it nails "the sound" 100%. I was watching Prometheus the other day and the cellos in that score sound just like HS. The timbre is dead on.



1. Make a list for yourself? 

2. Agreed. After Hollywood Orchestral Percussion, SD3 and Play 4 are out, I will try to plant the thought to them.

3. Yep. I so love it that I built a PC for it. I use lots of libraries but I think if they were all taken away except the Hollywood series, True Strike, and what comes with Logic Pro, I could probably do orchestral stuff just fine.


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## Sopranos (Apr 12, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Apr 12 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > especially since Jay apparently speaks for the company. .
> ...



I gathered that. I figured it was obviously just your personal opinion - but its my opinion too and I happen to agree with you that I don't think he would care either.

I don't think its by sheer chance that we both feel that way and get that sense that he doesn't particularly care what the users/customers think.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 12, 2013)

Sopranos @ Fri Apr 12 said:


> I don't think its by sheer chance that we both feel that way and get that sense that he doesn't particularly care what the users/customers think.



You are putting words in my mouth. He _does_ and IMHO always _has_ cared about what the _majority_ of his customers think or he wouldn't be in business for 25 years, never mind arguably the industry leader.. What he cares far less about is what a relatively small group of customers on a super-critical forum think.

A customer is a customer. What some fanboy on the SOL forum thinks is no less significant than what someone here who is not a fan here posts. There are very few here who are what Malcolm Gladwell refers to as "mavens" and the few here that are pale in influence next to the celebrities, awards and positive magazine reviews.

But believe me, when valid points are made here, I do pass them on and sometimes I tell him "I think so and so has a point." Sometimes he agrees with me, other times he does not, but at least he hasn't fired me for doing so


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## Darthmorphling (Apr 12, 2013)

@Jay

I really admire the fact that you are as calm as you are when dealing with the negativity. This is not to discount people's frustrations, but it seems as if you are the guy that gets sent to make sure the foxhole is cleared, before the rest of the troops are allowed to enter. The fact that you continue to do it says a lot about you.

You truly believe in the products that EW is selling, or you are a total masochist. Maybe both :mrgreen: 

Don


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## Sopranos (Apr 12, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Apr 12 said:


> Sopranos @ Fri Apr 12 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think its by sheer chance that we both feel that way and get that sense that he doesn't particularly care what the users/customers think.
> ...



Ok. I just see a lot of back and forth and conflicts within your own words.

First you talk about "a customer is a customer" implying that we are all valued the same... we do all spend the same green cash. But then in the same sentence you go on to say "pale in influence next to the celebrities, awards, and positive magazine reviews".... as if to say their money is more important money to Doug. Nonsense.

"What he cares far less about is what a relatively small group of customers on a super-critical forum think".

WOW. I may be in the blind here but what other forum is so much larger than this as a sampling of customers who use his products? I would love to know about another 3rd party forum that is discussing his products in such detail. Please advise.

And I am the last guy that wants to go around kissing peoples asses but as a business man I have to think that ultimately the best response you could have given was simply - I'm certain he cares about all his customers equally. And left it at that. 

I see no offense. Only defense. Causing employees like you to constantly go around putting out fires instead of reaching out and planting trees. I just don't see this philosophy working. Although I do commend you for trying. Almost like fighting a losing battle ultimately though.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 12, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Fri Apr 12 said:


> @Jay
> 
> I really admire the fact that you are as calm as you are when dealing with the negativity. This is not to discount people's frustrations, but it seems as if you are the guy that gets sent to make sure the foxhole is cleared, before the rest of the troops are allowed to enter. The fact that you continue to do it says a lot about you.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the kind words, Don.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 12, 2013)

Sopranos @ Fri Apr 12 said:


> 1. WOW. I may be in the blind here but what other forum is so much larger than this as a sampling of customers who use his products? I would love to know about another 3rd party forum that is discussing his products in such detail. Please advise.
> 
> 2. Causing employees like you to constantly go around putting out fires instead of reaching out and planting trees. I just don't see this philosophy working. Although I do commend you for trying. Almost like fighting a losing battle ultimately though.



1. I only say that because I think many here think that this is a very influential forum, but it is only influential within its own membership. Gearslutz, for instance, is a _much_ bigger deal in terms of potentially affecting sales and even the SOL forum is. And as I said, if someone here knocks it and i.e. Danny Elfman praises it, who do you think potential buyers will listen to? Ditto Electronic Musician. I mean some of you even wax orgasmic at every Hans comment. And Hans has earned that. It may not be fair, but it matters in the real world. Whatever their relative skills, just for an example , a John Powell thumbs up and a Sopranos thumbs down do not cancel out Not a knock on you, Sopranos, just stating marketing reality.

2. And a lot of what I post here, right or wrong, I am not directed to do. I do it because I believe in it (as I have also stuck up for other developers who I felt were not receiving a fair evaluation.) 

And the trees that are planted are the libraries, which personally I still believe are the best in the marketplace. I respect Adgio, LASS, Cinematic Strings, etc. but for completeness AND quality of sound, nothing, and I mean nothing, is as good as HS.

But I respect those who reach a different conclusion.


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## Sopranos (Apr 12, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Apr 12 said:


> Sopranos @ Fri Apr 12 said:
> 
> 
> > 1. WOW. I may be in the blind here but what other forum is so much larger than this as a sampling of customers who use his products? I would love to know about another 3rd party forum that is discussing his products in such detail. Please advise.
> ...



1. I have to disagree on the Gearslutz thing cause they just recently added a music for media section. While their overall forum and occupancy may be larger, I still think this site has far more EW customers as a direct correlation. But I certainly can be wrong.

Also, I think the basic marketing strategy that one would potentially listen to Danny Elfman more so than the reviews here would be accurate in most cases or dealing with kids. But once again I think we are dealing mostly with professionals here. Those who understand a real world scenario over a marketing ploy. I think users and potential customers are far more likely to have a mere mortal computer setup than perhaps what Danny or Hans Zimmer uses. I would like to think they will first try to relate before making a decision that they should just buy useless software.

Lastly (and this is definitely a personal assumption), I would be willing to bet that I (and the mere mortals) are spending far more money at EW than Danny Elfman. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if he doesn't get a "celebrity" copy of the products for free (or next to nothing). So again, without people like me the company probably wouldn't exist. I understand his views will weigh much more heavily than mine but at the end of the day my cash weighs the same as his. I do think sooner or later Doug will realize this.... regardless of how well EW has done over the past 25 years. Its a different time and A LOT more hobbyists and far more competition.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 12, 2013)

I am amused that you keep finding no value in this thread, Jay, where a fair number of others have stated that they DO find it valuable. I'm amused that you characterize all discussion and debate about the polarizing behavior of the company as "bashing." It would seem that you think if you talk loudly enough and often enough, you can negate any positive that might be garnered. This, after I initially listed in my positives that they had assigned you as a forum liason. Interesting.

I think the vast majority of people who have stated their opinions have remained civil. Almost to a man, they have not burned their bridges with the company. There is some widespread feeling, also stated, that corporate policy could use a makeover. You have warned us not to expect same, and yet you say no one's being banned recently. Hmmm.

You see your responses as measured (shock). I too see my responses as measured (equal shock). I have stayed on point, listed some things that EW does great, listed some areas where they could use improvement and/or change. If the banning as stopped in actuality, and there could be a fair and realistic announcement of upcoming scheduled software improvements, we'd be most of the way there. Speaking for myself, I don't need my hand held by companies. I simply need to be treated like an adult customer who is told what the status of things is.

As to 'you are not a moderator and can have no effect"- where in hard fact this is true, read through the thread. I've done everything possible to keep people looking forward.
(Btw-you're not a moderator either, and you've certainly tried to move things in the direction you wanted to take them.)

Having inserted yourself where you initially said you wouldn't go, I think it's specious to keep hammering out your opinion that there is no value here. There obviously is...and this "bashing", i.e. LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!!! stuff is starting to get wearisome. At least in this discussion, it largely has not been the case, regardless of your efforts to paint it in that manner.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 12, 2013)

You are right in all your assumptions about "here" I suspect. My point is, is that "here" is a very, very, very small piece of the sample library buying world. A company could be very profitable without sales here. I know for instance that is true for Kirk Hunter and EW's market penetration is far bigger than his.

Which does _not_ mean that EW does not welcome sales here. Of course, they do. 

Anyway, we can go round and round this for 50 more posts and be back pretty much where we started.

EW, like all companies, lives with the consequences of its decisions and time tells the tale.

@ Larry,once again I applaud your intentions but disagree on what has been accomplished. Please don't take it personally as I have considerable respect for you.


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## sin(x) (Apr 12, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ 2013-04-12 said:


> And as I said, if someone here knocks it and i.e. Danny Elfman praises it, who do you think potential buyers will listen to? Ditto Electronic Musician.



Every composer who's been around for longer than 2 years has learned at some point (often painfully) that 1. a- and b+-list composers get paid to endorse products, and 2. the most honesty you can expect in ad-financed audio magazines, and only the good ones at that, is gentle critique hidden between the lines of pages of exultant enthusiasm. This isn't directed at EW specifically at all, but I think if you're targeting professional composers, you might be underestimating the intelligence of “potential buyers” by an order of magnitude if you think they generally value testimonials in ads and magazine reviews higher than the word on the street that's aggregated in forums.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 12, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Apr 12 said:


> You are right in all your assumptions about "here" I suspect. My point is, is that "here" is a very, very, very small piece of the sample library buying world. A company could be very profitable without sales here. I know for instance that is true for Kirk Hunter and EW's market penetration is far bigger than his.
> 
> Which does _not_ mean that EW does not welcome sales here. Of course, they do.
> 
> ...



Thank you, Jay, but once again, I disagree about your disagreement. There has been some clarification and the establishment of a few clear-cut goals.

Corporate cultures change all the time. Nothing is impossible. You say unlikely-maybe so. I think a lot of customers, pros and hobbyists alike, would like to see some change, and I think they are asking politely. Maybe we're already seeing some, as I mentioned earlier in reagrds to your statement about reduced banning.

I can't really see any company benefit in having dangled improved software (Play 4 and Play Pro) in front of professionals for years, with no reasonable timeline established. I'm sure you can't see any benefit to it either.


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## Sopranos (Apr 12, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Apr 12 said:


> disagree on what has been accomplished.



What's being accomplished is behind the scenes. How can you know what's being accomplished?

Perhaps this thread saves some new hobbyist some hard earned cash and a headache? Maybe they read this and think twice and do a little more research about what might work best for them? Maybe (fat chance I assume) that you will provide this insight to your employer as to how some of the customers are reacting to the company? Perhaps other developers are learning from the mistakes made in here and can use it to their advantage?

Overall I think there are MANY accomplishments to be had here. Its up to you if you choose to use them. Damn, if only Doug spent a little time in here to see what's being said.

I don't buy that "this is such a small piece of the sample buying world". Yes this site is, but I think we are all typical consumers. I know I am just an average consumer. I am going to read forums like this much more than go looking for what Danny Elfman uses. I think (after my own research) that this site also represents what's being said at the other popular sites. I see the same things being said over at KVR, Gearslutz and the like. The only outcast, in fact, is the SOL forum where its heavily manufactured.


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## Vision (Apr 12, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Apr 12 said:


> You are right in all your assumptions about "here" I suspect. My point is, is that "here" is a very, very, very small piece of the sample library buying world. A company could be very profitable without sales here. I know for instance that is true for Kirk Hunter and EW's market penetration is far bigger than his.
> 
> Which does _not_ mean that EW does not welcome sales here. Of course, they do.
> 
> ...




very very very small? Why not throw in another "very" to drive it home. Where is the data to back this up? Or, is this just a personal opinion. No sarcasm intended.. I'd really like to know. 

I wonder if other devs could chime in, and verify that specifically v.i. control is insignificant in the world of virtual music, and also insignificant in terms of music advertising and sales. Spitfire? Cinesamples? 8dio? AudioBro? 

"very very very small" = "insignificant". If EW (Doug) sees this site as insignificant, boy o boy, that's a huge problem. I think Doug needs to speak for himself at this point.. and I really don't see it happening unfortunately. In fact, he is the the only owner of a (relevant) sample library who hasn't participated here.. as far as I know.


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## David Gosnell (Apr 12, 2013)

sin(x) @ Fri Apr 12 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ 2013-04-12 said:
> 
> 
> > And as I said, if someone here knocks it and i.e. Danny Elfman praises it, who do you think potential buyers will listen to? Ditto Electronic Musician.
> ...



+1

I can't remember the last time I read a negative product review ( or one that reflected a really hard core usage experience ) in a trade magazine. Still, it doesn't really make sense to bite the hand whose advertising feeds you (even though it does apparently make sense to tell potential customers their opinions are niche and irrelevant on a public forum where anyone considering a purchase, even if not a member, can find the post via Google).

I also think it is a little disingenuous to cite endorsement by Danny Elfman, who endorsed Stormdrum 2 and the Quantum Leap heritage some 5 years ago (an endorsement for uniqueness which at that time I would have agreed with) but appears to be currently citing VSL as his orchestral tool of choice for mock-ups :wink: 

OK, I'll crawl back into my basher's niche of unrepresentative irrelevance now :oops: (me & the 300 other irrelevants who have read this topic so far...)


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## playz123 (Apr 12, 2013)

Vision @ Fri Apr 12 said:


> If EW (Doug) sees this site as insignificant, boy o boy, that's a huge problem. I think Doug needs to speak for himself at this point.. and I really don't see it happening unfortunately. In fact, he is the the only owner of a (relevant) sample library who hasn't participated here.. as far as I know.



Based on how some respondents treat Jay, who is simply a representative for EW, I expect that Doug would have to have a death wish to post here.  Heck, even Nick has expressed concerns about VI and other forums. Same thoughts about Kirk Hunter. Having said that, other developers do indeed participate here and surprisingly have not only survived, but thrived. So it can be done! 

Surprised to see this thread is still going strong. Still haven't read much I hadn't seen previously in other threads, but bless Larry for his intentions though.


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## Andrew Aversa (Apr 12, 2013)

Without going into too much intimate detail, I would say from our experience VI Control is definitely one of the main forums for sample library buyers/users... particularly those that use orchestral sounds. Remember that for every person that comments there are many more who will view a webpage or buy something without saying anything. KVR is also very popular and valuable forum (and speaking of Kirk Hunter, I know he's had immense success there too). On the other hand, Gearslutz to me seems overwhelmingly dominated by discussion of plugins - particularly mixing plugins - and NOT samples at all.

From my perspective, companies like ours, Cinesamples, Tonehammer/8dio/Soundiron, Embertone (etc) all got their start here on VI.


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## David Gosnell (Apr 12, 2013)

> Based on how some respondents treat Jay...., other developers do indeed participate here and surprisingly have not only survived, but thrived....



Maybe the other devs got a warmer reception based on their belief that patronising and showing contempt for the members and the forum to which they belong is not widely considered to be a wise business development strategy? Just a wild guess of course :shock:


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## Vision (Apr 12, 2013)

David Gosnell @ Fri Apr 12 said:


> > Based on how some respondents treat Jay...., other developers do indeed participate here and surprisingly have not only survived, but thrived....
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the other devs got a warmer reception based on their belief that patronising and showing contempt for the members and the forum to which they belong is not widely considered to be a wise business development strategy? Just a wild guess of course :shock:



I endorse this post..


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## NYC Composer (Apr 12, 2013)

I have to agree, the oft-repeated minimizing of the importance of this forum is puzzling.
If it's so insignificant, why bother posting here so often and so vociferously? Why mount such a spirited defense when it will hardly affect sales?

Also-to repeat, what's the point behind your statements that you very much doubt the corporate philosophy will change, and any discussion of such is "bashing"? I don't see how these statements advance discussion. Actually,you've said the very fact that there ARE discussions =bashing. Hmmm...aren't you an expert on logic?  .

To sum up:

1. Polite calls for changes in corporate culture do not = bashing.
2. I think this forum is more significant than you suggest, in that it's taken seriously by pros and hobbyists alike.
3. Even if it isn't, it earns you absolutely nothing to express your thoughts about its insignificance in ways that look like disparagement.

Words on screens do not always express the writer's emotions adequately, so let me say I'm not angry at all, nor have I been since the beginning of this thread. I'm simply puzzled by the responses, and I'm being dogged about my intentions, the main one being that I hope I can again have an EW that I can be a fan of and support with my limited simoleons.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 12, 2013)

OK, I was wrong. I admit it.........

Wait for it.....


it's coming..... 

I used one "very" too many


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## Simon Ravn (Apr 12, 2013)

Still trying to be so sleek, going into smiley and "ha-ha" mode when things get too hot.... But the hole that EW is in has only been dug deeper and deeper throughout this thread. Suspicions about how EW/Doug thinks and works have been confirmed - couldn't have asked for a more telling way to shed light on what users have been suspecting for a long time regarding the way EW thinks about its customers.

Really this has been fuel on the fire instead of putting it out - and again myreference to Comical Ali wasn't too far off, that is obvious now 8)

Thank god for the talented, sane and sound developers that have emerged in the last few years!


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## David Gosnell (Apr 12, 2013)

Morning all!

I've just woken from a curious dream I wanted to share with you...

This sample library company CEO is having a reunion dinner with an old college buddy who has done rather well for himself as a public relations consultant. They get to talking about how things have changed since the old days, and the subject inevitably moves on to 'the internet'.

'Oh these forums are a PITA, guys who've bought my products keep whining about performance, and customer service - just because I ignore their complaints - like they know something I don't (he laughs heartily). On my own forum I can delete their negative posts or ban them, but on 3rd party forums they seem to be able to say what they hell they like!

Oh (his PR friend replies) that kind of thing is easy to deal with - you need to employ a bit of 'misdirection' (he says, wiggling his eyebrows knowingly). If someone with a legitimate beef posts a comment, get someone 'kinda connected but not' to your company (so you can say they went rogue if they say something they can't take back) to respond with something controversial which is related to the specific post, but takes if off topic. It needs to be the kind of comment that is irritating enough that someone has to take the bait and respond. Then you keep the off topic going, probably adding in that the other guys are just biased against your company for some personal irrational reason.

But won't that make us look a little bad? (asks the CEO) For a while maybe (says Mr. PR), but then the debate will get all snarky and make everyone look a little childish. At least some of the readers considering a purchase will want to believe the product, you're advertising has made sound like it will launch their rise to fame, is what they really need. They'll just shrug and figure 'well, that's forums for you; folks arguing about punctuation and whether Mac is better than PC, yada yada yada...'

The point is, you will have derailed the topic and stopped a bunch of other guys reinforcing the original beef with their experiences - which wouldn't be helpful to your sales; but anyway, here's the kicker...

You get 'satisfied customers' to join in the post. Again, off topic - they shouldn't refer to the original beef specifically nor offer work-arounds for it, they should always start by saying they never have problems with your product and have never experienced communication issues with your company. If absolutely necessary to refer to the beef, they should question the other posters' computer configurations (though that will work better on your own forum I think than it will on 3rd party forums). This will hopefully plant enough doubt about whether the original beef was legitimate or not - to someone who really hopes your product will help them make it big.

Excellent! (says Mr. CEO), waiter - a bottle of your finest Champagne!, excuse me, I just need to go to the bathroom...

(Mr. PR calls after him) "but you can't use this tactic for more than a short time, otherwise the forum users will start to notice the pattern - after which you'll lose their trust and it'll be worse than when you started..."

(I can't be sure if he heard that last part though, because I woke up...)

Aren't dreams and the human mind fascinating things?


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 13, 2013)

David Gosnell - post of the year!  

Reading a post like David's might seem a little fanciful - would it really be so premeditated? - but I'm not at all sure that it is. Why? Because Doug, Nick et all _sued each other_. Over using _thier own libraries_. This isn't news, but I'm still not really over it. That is an absolutely extraordinary thing to do. That's one helluva company ethos to trickle down. So if they are capable of that, everything else seems much more plausible. 

BTW, agree about the point re print media and endorsements. This has come up a few times over the past year or two, I do find VI-C a far more reliable barometer of a library's worth than print media. It's rare for a review to mention an obvious problem I will discover within 5 minutes - not so here. EW often uses both techniques to defend itself" - "Well, if our product is so crap, why does it have awards, 5 star reviews and Danny Elfman supporting it", is a powerful question.


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## David Gosnell (Apr 13, 2013)

Thanks Guy,

And on the subject of litigation (a litigation which I kind of hoped would result in a SD 2 alternative coming out on the Kontakt platform... :cry: )

Any resemblance to any person, living or dead, in my previous post is purely coincidental and it merely represented a hypothetical meeting which might take place in the scenario described. It also in no way resembles any previous experiences I have had prior to turning pro whilst working as a PR consultant. 0oD


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 13, 2013)

David Gosnell @ Sat Apr 13 said:


> Thanks Guy,
> 
> And on the subject of litigation (a litigation which I kind of hoped would result in a SD 2 alternative coming out on the Kontakt platform... :cry: )
> 
> Any resemblance to any person, living or dead, in my previous post is purely coincidental and it merely represented a hypothetical meeting which might take place in the scenario described. It also in no way resembles any previous experiences I have had prior to turning pro whilst working as a PR consultant. 0oD



I thought it had the hypothetical ring of truth about it...


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 13, 2013)

For the sake of clarity, because I prefer clarity to agreement:

1. EW does not value a sale to a VI Control member _less_ than one to a a Gearslutz member or a SoundsOnline forum member but it does not value one _more_ either. I agree however for a new developer without much promotional money available, this forum can possibly jump start its business. For established ones, it is less important.

2. EW does NOT pay big name composers to endorse their products. What EW could afford to pay them would probably not cover their sushi bill for a month 

3. I use humor at times but not because it gets "too hot" as someone suggested. I can and have had to handle much more trying things in my life than a discussion like this without getting stressed or feeling defeated. Nor do I use it to trivialize the discussion. I use it because seeing the humor in situations is a basic component of my personality, for better or worse. I think it is an East Coast Jewish thing. Watch almost any Woody Allen or Albert Brooks film and you see it in action.

Anyway, I am glad that some of you have found Larry's thread useful and indeed for the most part, it has not been over the top compared to some other EW threads.

As always, I am here to help you get resolution with issues with your EW software that can actually be resolved so that you can enjoy composing with them as much as I am these days. If you choose not to, for _whatever_ reasons, that is of course your right and I respect it.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 13, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Apr 13 said:


> For the sake of clarity, because I prefer clarity to agreement:
> 
> 1. EW does not value a sale to a VI Control member _less_ than one to a a Gearslutz member or a SoundsOnline forum member but it does not value one _more_ either. I agree however for a new developer without much promotional money available, this forum can possibly jump start its business. For established ones, it is less important.
> 
> ...



I too prefer clarity to agreement, though going further, I prefer clarity and some semblance of comity, or at least an agreement to listen to and respect other points of view without dismissing them out of hand. Let me address your points and sum up-

1. The idea that there should be any question of the value of a sale to anyone is pretty silly. A company exists to sell product. Who it sells the product to is not important, however, to deny that V.I.C. is coming into its own as a widely respected professional and hobbyist sales point is to deny reality-and influential sites with credence create sales in various ways.

2. Whether or not big name composers get free and/or early product to make them more likely to endorse is not our business, really. I'm sure big name composers love great sounds as much as we who work in the trenches do, so like me, I'm sure they have a vested interest in seeing EW continue to flourish.

3. I'm an east coast guy as well, as you know, Jay,and I often try to deflect with humor. My answer to your statement here and your attempt at amelioration of some of your previous statements regarding the worthlessness of this thread is this-why not keep the stick in your pocket, and, if not offering the carrot, just take the time to see how things play out before making proclamations? It makes more sense.

Even I, who obviously has too much time on his hands despite writing three minutes of music a day, has to stop eventually  ...so let me sum up with what I feel is the real deal for me:

1. I want EW to continue to make great sounds at prices I can afford.
2. I implore EW to improve their software on a realistic timetable, and communicate to its customers what that timetable will be.
3. If banning in their forum has indeed stopped, let me compliment EW for listening to its customers and express hope that this is a forward going model.
4. Doug-would it REALLY hurt you to make a short statement of recognition that, despite years of being a top notch company and changing the game for sample developers everywhere, some mistakes might have been made along the way, and you plan on addressing them? The ensuing good will would go a long, long way in putting people at ease and selling more product.

That's it! Thanks for everyone who has listened, agreed, disagreed, participated. o-[][]-o


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## KingIdiot (Apr 13, 2013)

In an effort to go with the same ole same ole characters we all seem to play here at times, I'm gonna jump in late, completely ignoring the major points and make Simon think 'm being politically correct.



> and I think Nick will always be the father of the modern era of orchestral sampling (and lack of sleep).



I think that goes more to Gary Garritan. GOS was the first "big" library using some of the features we expect today. GOS also pushed Nick to go do a larger library himself that would have quality sound out of the box he liked. I'd throw Dave Govett in there too for bringing The zimmer style Xfade-ing to the masses with the Ultimate Strings update.

if those guys are granpappy and paps, then we at least know who was King 

(donnie of course)


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## SkyWorker (Apr 13, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri 12 Apr said:


> Anyway, we can go round and round this for 50 more posts and be back pretty much where we started.
> 
> EW, like all companies, lives with the consequences of its decisions and time tells the tale.



That's a pretty nice digest of this thread.

Some people just got tired of hoping. Thankfully, the alternatives in the samples market have never been so great!


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## star.keys (Apr 14, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Apr 12 said:


> Sopranos @ Fri Apr 12 said:
> 
> 
> > And the trees that are planted are the libraries, which personally I still believe are the best in the marketplace. I respect Adgio, LASS, Cinematic Strings, etc. but for completeness AND quality of sound, *nothing, and I mean nothing, is as good as HS.*
> ...



Although having 4 legs, 2 ears and 1 tail like all other dogs, I still believe my dog is the best because he is MY dog

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

I own products from all above and can tell that if there an opinion like that, there is a lack of understanding of these products.

Back on topic, I have the shiny Red & Orange HS and HB platinum boxes and have wasted the space of 2 hard drive slots in my Mac Pro because the software never works, which is a decent summary of my opinion about EW and rest all is garbage discussion to me. This is a classic example of companies harming more damage to their reputation (due to the behaviours) by stirring up discussions by continuously landing into irrational arguments with their customers instead of focussing energy on fixing issues.


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## Dean (Apr 14, 2013)

Hey,

this thread has probably gone full circle a number of times by now so is there a any suggestion or solution on the table at all Jay?

ps:I've had all the usual issues with Play and Hollywood strings,I also was banned for a while at SOL aswell so I've also moved onto to many other library developers because of these issues. D


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## muziksculp (Apr 14, 2013)

Will PLAY 4 be as efficient as Kontakt 5 ? I doubt it.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 14, 2013)

With apologies to the people whose posts I just deleted, I have deleted all posts related to Gunther's derailment nonsense. The thread may (or may not) have already run its course, but it is not up to one single member to unilaterally decide the topic doesn't need to be discussed any longer, and to then throw in a bomb that wrecks the thread.

Again, I do apologize to those who's posts I deleted. I needed to make a decision quickly (getting a consensus from other moderators takes quite a bit of time,) so for better or worse, this was my honest thought as to what would be best for the forum.


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## tdavilio (Apr 14, 2013)

Sadly, I have nothing good to say about EW. Between Play which drives me crazy with the stuck notes. The last product I bought from them was HS and I don't even use it. Not because it doesn't sound good but almost every other note sticks. I downloaded the update that was supposed to fix it but it didn't .

The other thing is that I was once a member of their forum. I ended up getting into a heated-argument with Doug because I mentioned another product. He may have plenty of money but.........


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2013)

muziksculp @ Sun Apr 14 said:


> Will PLAY 4 be as efficient as Kontakt 5 ? I doubt it.



The only realistic way to test when it comes out will be to load a comparably sized patch in each, check Activity Monitor on the Mac or its counterpart for the PC (I forget its name) for RAM usage and your DAW for CPU usage.

I am curious myself.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2013)

tdavilio @ Sun Apr 14 said:


> Sadly, I have nothing good to say about EW. Between Play which drives me crazy with the stuck notes. The last product I bought from them was HS and I don't even use it. Not because it doesn't sound good but almost every other note sticks. I downloaded the update that was supposed to fix it but it didn't .



Rather than give up, why not contact me with specifics and see if I can get you help? I honestly don't have the stuck notes problem on either my Mac or PC.


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## muziksculp (Apr 14, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Apr 14 said:


> muziksculp @ Sun Apr 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Will PLAY 4 be as efficient as Kontakt 5 ? I doubt it.
> ...



Yes, that's true. 

On the PC side of things, performance info. can be monitored via the 'Windows Task Manager' .

Oh.. and I'm guessing no one has a clue as to when PLAY4 will be released, so I won't bother asking :lol: Anyway, the sooner the better. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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