# MacOS Mojave will drop support for some older Macs released before 2012



## gsilbers (Jun 5, 2018)

https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...port-for-some-older-macs-released-before-2012

https://www.macrumors.com/2018/06/04/macos-mojave-supported-macs/

well.. shucks!.


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## gsilbers (Jun 5, 2018)

macOS Mojave is largely limited to 2012 or newer machines, with the exception of some Mac Pro models. Here's a full list: 

MacBook (Early 2015 or newer)
MacBook Air (Mid 2012 or newer)
MacBook Pro (Mid 2012 or newer)
Mac mini (Late 2012 or newer)
iMac (Late 2012 or newer)
iMac Pro (2017)
Mac Pro (Late 2013, plus mid 2010 and mid 2012 models with recommended Metal-capable GPU)
As you can see, compared to High Sierra, the update drops support for the older plastic MacBooks, and MacBook Pro, Air, mini, and iMac models from 2009, 2010, and 2011. 

These older machines will not have access to the macOS Mojave features, and will continue to run macOS High Sierra. 

Developers can download macOS Mojave starting today, and the update should be available for public beta testers later this summer.


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## gsilbers (Jun 5, 2018)

anyone have a clue on the metal-capable gpu and how to find out if my computer/model identifier has it or not?


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## charlieclouser (Jun 5, 2018)

And so... it begins.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 5, 2018)

My 2011 iMac is out. Seven years running the latest is nothing to complain about. Better start saving for that iMac pro then..


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## gsilbers (Jun 5, 2018)

The only thing I could find

"If OpenGL 4.3 is supported -> metal ok

If OpenGL is only 3.x -> no metal"

And I used the openGL extension viewer app to determine what OpenGL I have. 

so no. I won't be using Mojave.


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## gsilbers (Jun 5, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> My 2011 iMac is out. Seven years running the latest is nothing to complain about. Better start saving for that iMac pro then..



that blows. hopefully there is nothing that comes out in Mojave that won't be compatible with high Sierra until much later... or at least never for pro audio.


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## gsilbers (Jun 5, 2018)

What happens if we upgrade GPU on our old Mac pros? (struggling until the new Mac pros get release in 2019)


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## C.R. Rivera (Jun 5, 2018)

Hmmm, so my decision to stick with "Low" Sierra was good as HS did not seem that good for me and my TB external drive. I have a late 2012 Imac, and wondered how much longer Apple would provide any support before I just "air gap" for good?


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## KerrySmith (Jun 5, 2018)

Also, fwiw - Go to "About This Mac" Click the "System Report" button. Select "Graphics/Displays" on the left. In the details on your Graphics Card, it should say "Metal: Supported [or Unsupported, presumably]" I have a Radeon HD 7950 and it says "Supported". Goalposts may move between now and the release, but for now...


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## CT (Jun 5, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> My 2011 iMac is out. Seven years running the latest is nothing to complain about. Better start saving for that iMac pro then..



Sigh, mine too. I hope it can hold on until I can even think of investing in something new.


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## EgM (Jun 5, 2018)

My iMac mid 2011 is out as well. I knew about this back in march which is why I switched from Logic and moved to Cubase and Windows 10 on my VEP PC. I loved the days I had with Apple, but those days are over. Tim Cook is more interested in iPhones and the AppStore.

I use that iMac as VEP slave for now since it has nice RAM and an i7. Until XCode forces VSL to compile it to a new version...


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## NYC Composer (Jun 5, 2018)

My 2008 Mac Pro is out.

OTOH, it was already out for Sierra


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 5, 2018)

wow, so this will REALLY be a reason for me to stay on sierra as my 2010 MBP will now be deprecated by Apple even though its still perfectly fast and functional. i swear, Apple is such a lame company when it comes to this...

Thank god my 2010 macPro will still work, I guess because it uses a video card, I can make sure the GPU is metal capable. But do I really want my Mac Pro on the new OS and my MBP on the old OS? Answer = no.


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## Geoff Grace (Jun 6, 2018)

I'm more concerned about when High Sierra will be compatible with all my music apps and plugins than I am about Mojave at this point. Mojave is a distant light in the future, if it takes as long to reach compatibility.

Best,

Geoff


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## babylonwaves (Jun 6, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> I'm more concerned about when High Sierra will be compatible with all my music apps and plugins


what's missing?


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## Geoff Grace (Jun 6, 2018)

Soundtoys, for one, has not announced High Sierra compatibility. U-he has a sort of limited compatibility. Most developers are there, but not all. More here:

High Sierra: macOS 10.13 Compatibility Information

Best,

Geoff


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## N.Caffrey (Jun 6, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> SoundToys, for one, has not announced High Sierra compatibility. More here:
> 
> High Sierra: macOS 10.13 Compatibility Information
> 
> ...



Can't believe it's not supported yet! Glad you said that as I was planning to upgrade..


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## procreative (Jun 6, 2018)

I have a MacBook Pro Mid 2010 17 that I trialled High Sierra on, works okay but when it starts up the screen goes black for about 5 seconds before showing the blue screen again and then the desktop. I suspect its switching the video as MacBooks have two video connections Intel and NVidea Geforce so I reckon its unable to use the NVidea.

I only mention as (a) hoping someone might confirm and (b) something to take into account that even if a machine is on the list, 3rd party video might not work properly?

The main game with OS updates is to at least be slightly in front of other devs and their minimum specs eg Kontakt, so even if your Mac wont install you should get some mileage out of it. Logic Pro X forced me to update my OS and previously had been on Snow Leopard for ages.

The longer you are in this game the more components you are likely to have whose drivers stopped being updated in 20XX, I have an Impact Twin interface and TC stopped driver development 2 years ago and have since removed the product (along it seems with all audio interfaces) from their product lineup.


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## gsilbers (Jun 6, 2018)

KerrySmith said:


> Also, fwiw - Go to "About This Mac" Click the "System Report" button. Select "Graphics/Displays" on the left. In the details on your Graphics Card, it should say "Metal: Supported [or Unsupported, presumably]" I have a Radeon HD 7950 and it says "Supported". Goalposts may move between now and the release, but for now...



Mine didn’t say anything. Which is why I downloaded the OpenGL app viewer. 
Good to know it says so.


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## gsilbers (Jun 6, 2018)

gsilbers said:


> What happens if we upgrade GPU on our old Mac pros? (struggling until the new Mac pros get release in 2019)



Anyone know?
I feel it’s a good thing old Macpros have pcie card slots that would enable it to have newer graphics cards but wondering if that’s all it needs?


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## EvilDragon (Jun 6, 2018)

I think upgrading GPU doesn't mean much if the OS doesn't have built in support for higher version of OGL. Not sure if support for that gets installed along with a newer graphics card. On Windows, you'd just install new drivers, but IIRC Apple has a very tight grip on drivers for their own hardware...


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## babylonwaves (Jun 6, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> Soundtoys, for one, has not announced High Sierra compatibility. U-he has a sort of limited compatibility. Most developers are there, but not all. More here:


from what I can see, the latest u-he releases were fine and soundtoys just released 5.2.3 which addresses the usual "things are not sorted right" issue in high sierra. I don't think the sweetwater list gets maintained a lot.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 6, 2018)

procreative said:


> I have a MacBook Pro Mid 2010 17 that I trialled High Sierra on, works okay but when it starts up the screen goes black for about 5 seconds before showing the blue screen again and then the desktop. I suspect its switching the video as MacBooks have two video connections Intel and NVidea Geforce so I reckon its unable to use the NVidea.



Try this: https://github.com/julian-poidevin/MBPMid2010_GPUFix

That problem is related to a cheap capacitor that Apple put into 2010 MBP's which can't handle the power surge created when it switches to the nVidia GPU. Some people have replaced the capacitor and solved the problem that way. I was going to do that soon, but now that I know Apple is going to deprecate the hardware entirely, for no good reason, its probably not worth spending the money to have it done. Anyway the above fix will solve your problem and everything will run fine.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 6, 2018)

This is not a criticism of anyone, just a question: How long do you expect a company to keep its latest OS compatible with machines that are six years old or older, knowing that not being able to run the latest OS does not render it no longer usable?


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 6, 2018)

A lot longer then Apple does! Microsoft does a supremely better job of ensuring their OS can still run and pretty darn old PC hardware. Apple is positively HORRID at this, in fact they don't even try, why would they if they want to sell us more hardware? Yes I expect my computer to work at least 10 years. Its an outrage that they try to force otherwise.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 6, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> A lot longer then Apple does! Microsoft does a supremely better job of ensuring their OS can still run and pretty darn old PC hardware. Apple is positively HORRID at this, in fact they don't even try, why would they if they want to sell us more hardware? Yes I expect my computer to work at least 10 years. Its an outrage that they try to force otherwise.




The computer WILL work at least 10 years, just not able to update to the latest OS, which only provides small advantages anyway.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 6, 2018)

I also want to say, that NONE of the newer MBP's are of any interest to me...the 2010 one I got was loaded up with a fast enough i7 and ram to get all the work done. And I was able to get a matte finish screen back then, which you can't even get today. The newer latest MBP's have had a lot of hardware issues also, my next laptop will never ever be another Apple one because of all the hardware problems they've had and now forcing me out of the game... I'm really happy that my 2010 MacPro will still be able to continue being used...that's great, but the day they abandon me, I don't know what I'm going to do. My MacPro is very fast and very capable and has PCI slots, etc..there is no reason whatsoever why it should be deprecated any time soon, and none of the offerings from Apple since then provide all the power and expansion capability I need, without forcing me to rebuy a bunch of PCI-424 based hardware costing thousands of dollars, and is still working totally fine by the way.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 6, 2018)

Again, that is simply bullshit apple marketing hype you are using now. Apple could make their OS backwards compatible very easily and they have shown themselves over decades to screw over their user base this way time and time again, while Microsoft has not. 

And what will happen is that I will be forced to use Older version of LPX in the not too distant future, and even though my machine could sit in a corner being a file server, for all practical purposes I will get shut out...why? So that Apple can put pretty animation on my desktop that I couldn't care less about. Please. Apple doesn't even try to make it backwards compatible, when they bloody well could.


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## Vik (Jun 6, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> The computer WILL work at least 10 years, just not able to update to the latest OS, which only provides small advantages anyway


That depends... if major updates to Logic are being released that require a relatively new OS (10.4 requires Sierra, for instance), there could be major advantages by being able to use Sierra - and therefore a major advantage to have a Mac which can run a relatively new OS.


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## procreative (Jun 6, 2018)

Well I am sticking with my MBP 17 as they dont make a 17 anymore, I could jump to a 2011 if I really wanted 16GB RAM but I have abandoned using it as a serious writing tool (although it works fine when connected to VEP).

But for my dayjob (or rather any time of day job) a 15" does not cut it and having to attach an external screen is not an ideal answer.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 6, 2018)

Like I said Procreative, if your 17 has the nvidia GPU, then check out that GitHub workaround I mentioned. It works. I used to get Kernel panics every day and had to disable the nvidia entirely, which then didn't work at all for certain OpenGL apps.. But this fix basically gives complete compatibility and everything just works without stressing the cheap capacitor Apple put in there. If you follow the links from that site you can find the instructions for how to replace the capacitor with a better one and the problem goes away without compromising any high-end video speed, as this fix does limit the nVidia to medium speed only...which frankly is totally fine for most of what you're probably doing with it.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 6, 2018)

There's a lot of weird entitlement going on in this thread. 

Bottom line is that Apple are a company who want to make money. Why should they continue to support the needs of 0.001 of the total user base? We're talking about Mac users on vintage hardware who are *deliberately avoiding buying new Macs.* I think I can spot the reason why Apple aren't so keen on spending time and resources on those guys...

Bottom line is that computers/OS/Daws have always been a moving train.
Just my 2c.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 6, 2018)

2010 is not "vintage".


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## robgb (Jun 6, 2018)

The solution here is simple. Don't update your Mac. At this point do we really need to? I'm still using Yosemite on my main Mac.


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## gsilbers (Jun 6, 2018)

robgb said:


> The solution here is simple. Don't update your Mac. At this point do we really need to? I'm still using Yosemite on my main Mac.



but but... logicX is actually getting very good on each update. :(
and those updates shouldn't be a problem to do on older osx... but then why would anyone upgrade and have to pay apple :-/
and yes.. I tried going to windows and couldn't. bought a 2011 iMac recently and that backfired pretty fast.


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## gsilbers (Jun 6, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> I think upgrading GPU doesn't mean much if the OS doesn't have built in support for higher version of OGL. Not sure if support for that gets installed along with a newer graphics card. On Windows, you'd just install new drivers, but IIRC Apple has a very tight grip on drivers for their own hardware...



I saw some forums posts where the upgrade to a newer video cards seems like an option. but its pretty recent development so there isn't much info. most info is related to programmers coding for metal to use it for iOS apps or something more specific to programming than from a user/operator point of view like a music maker. and yes, somehow windows is able to keep to have their OS to last a lot longer while being open to different hardware companies while apple that is closed environment can't. oh well.


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## jhughes (Jun 6, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> 2010 is not "vintage".


Right....and if you pay more for a product than a comparable product you shouldn't feel entitled to greater longevity. Everyone else has money to buy a new system every five years and if you don't, shame on you. Really, not surprising it works like this at all...pretty obvious why.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 6, 2018)

robgb said:


> The solution here is simple. Don't update your Mac. At this point do we really need to? I'm still using Yosemite on my main Mac.


That’s easy if you’re using reaper. If you’re based on the Logic Pro universe then it will not be long before Apple will be preventing you from using the latest version. Apple just seems to go whichever way the wind blows and expects their users to throw away perfectly good hardware every five years in order to stay current with software


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 6, 2018)

New hardware every five years is a ridiculous mindset that Apple has convinced its religiously minded fanboys to buy into. Total fallacy since about 2010 computers have not doubled in speed every other year like they used to. Apple just attempts to throw new standards at you in order to force you to upgrade hardware that doesn’t need to be


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## jhughes (Jun 6, 2018)

robgb said:


> The solution here is simple. Don't update your Mac. At this point do we really need to? I'm still using Yosemite on my main Mac.


Right, I didn't update many years and was fine.
It only is a problem with logic updates or when other programs decide to not work. I think it will be awhile before it matters but still...being so accepting of it is a bit much.


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## gsilbers (Jun 6, 2018)

to me is also the issue that apple decided to post pone its new Mac Pro re-isuse to 2019 and they also said they might be doing their own cpu chips instead of intel. which we all remember that universal binary crap and the ton of plugins we lost or companies that said fakit.

so its hard to justify right now buying a Mac Pro cylinder when apple might change drastically the Mac Pro model to be more "pro" or flexible as they said. so Mojave and that new Mac Pro and MAYBE that new arc chip will all fall within the same range of time. which is a huge change on anyway it pans out. so its more of that waiting game for many of us.

sadly stevejobs is gone and he might of made a better choice for the pro world. and apple users are now faced everytime (since a few years now) on these forced upgrades and dongles and adapters etc for very money obvious reasons. so as a company I would be screw all of you, pay me. but as a consumer its been really hard to leave logicX and using windows. ubuntu here I come!


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 6, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> New hardware every five years is a ridiculous mindset that Apple has convinced its religiously minded fanboys to buy into. Total fallacy since about 2010 computers have not doubled in speed every other year like they used to. Apple just attempts to throw new standards at you in order to force you to upgrade hardware that doesn’t need to be


Yeah, sure, I get that the first MacBook owners might be a bit annoyed with the news.

My example: I brought my iMac in 2011. Later this year, I don't get to upgrade to the latest OS. But based on past experience I can expect at *least* another 2 years of Logic updates. So, that's at least 9 years of use. I don't think that's too bad, TBH.

And don't forget, Logic X hasn't had a chargeable update since it's release in 2013. So, a bit of perspective perhaps guys.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 6, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> This is not a criticism of anyone, just a question: How long do you expect a company to keep its latest OS compatible with machines that are six years old or older, knowing that not being able to run the latest OS does not render it no longer usable?



This is not a criticism of anyone, just a question: why would you want to post that trolling question, knowing full well it was just going to annoy people?



And it's not even the issue, because you can run the next macOS on an older Mac with a graphics card that supports Metal. Apple doesn't appear to have crippled anything to encourage you to buy a new Mac, they specified that you need certain graphics cards.

The problem is that there's not enough information going around about what cards will work. You can search for "is xxx compatible with Metal" and get nothing useful.

I for one have no idea whether the Frodgniq 4000 series or later comes before Frodgniq 2018 Pro series cards. The reason is that like most musicians I don't give a FF about graphics cards, I'm interested in audio performance.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 6, 2018)

Here's a question: does the Radeon RX460 support Metal?

That's the least expensive graphics card I know of that supports 4K on older machines.


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## Geoff Grace (Jun 6, 2018)

babylonwaves said:


> from what I can see, the latest u-he releases were fine and soundtoys just released 5.2.3 which addresses the usual "things are not sorted right" issue in high sierra. I don't think the sweetwater list gets maintained a lot.


@babylonwaves thanks for the update. U-he seems to have fixed their High Sierra issues just last week—on May 31. Sweetwater's last update was two days earlier—on May 29. I'm glad that Soundtoys just released a High Sierra compatible version as well. I have a few other developers I still have to check in with, but maybe it's finally time to take the plunge.

Best,

Geoff


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 6, 2018)

Here's the Mac Pro spec:

Mac Pro (Late 2013, plus mid-2010 and mid-2012 models with recommended Metal-capable GPU)
Looking at Apple-History, I see this:

"Introduced in July 2010, The Mac Pro (Mid 2010, Dual CPU) improved processor speed and GPU performance over the previous Mac Pro (Early 2009, Dual CPU). It came in a single, highly-customizable configuration, which included two 4-core 2.4 GHz Intel Xeon 5600-series processors, 6 GB of RAM, a 1 TB 7200 RPM hard drive, and 1 GB of VRAM, for $3499. Built-to-order options included 2x2.66 or 2x2.93 GHz 6-core "Gulftown" processors, up to 64 GB of RAM, up to 8 TB of storage (via four hard drive bays), *an additional ATI Radeon HD 5770 graphics card, an ATI Radeon HD 5870 graphics card,* a second 18x SuperDrive, and RAID and Fibre Channel PCI Express cards. A server configuration was also made available, with 8 GB of RAM and dual 1 TB 7200 RPM hard disks. All configurations were discontinued in June 2012 with the introduction of the Mac Pro (Mid 2012, Dual CPU)."

The Mid-2012 Mac Pro has the same card options.

So are either of those Metal cards?


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## Vik (Jun 6, 2018)

jhughes said:


> Everyone else has money to buy a new system every five years and if you don't, shame on you.


I assume this is a joke.


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## gsilbers (Jun 6, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Here's the Mac Pro spec:
> 
> Mac Pro (Late 2013, plus mid-2010 and mid-2012 models with recommended Metal-capable GPU)
> Looking at Apple-History, I see this:
> ...




I downloaded "OpenGL Extensions Viewer" and selected OPENGL to see what version it supported. 
and went by this:
"If OpenGL 4.3 is supported -> metal ok

If OpenGL is only 3.x -> no metal"

im off by one version but could verify when I download the trial of pixelmator pro app and when I opened it it said "
*Pixelmator Pro” can’t be opened because your device does not support the Metal graphics technology."
*
not an easy thing to figure out. and also its still in doubt if upgrading only the graphics pcie card will be enough. and if so which card. some get pretty pricey , specially to use it for a DAW.


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## tmhuud (Jun 6, 2018)

jhughes said:


> It only is a problem with logic updates or when other programs decide to not work.



And therein lies the real issue.


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## gsilbers (Jun 6, 2018)

maybe someone out there could do a patch or something to fool Mojave into thinking the graphics cards is metal compatible (since we won't be using it anyways)... and Als put a little sign stating how little I know about this stuff


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## sinkd (Jun 6, 2018)

As an educator who has to maintain an array of Macs purchased in cycles AND support software and a student laptop purchase, my bigger question is will I be able to hold new hardware to an older OS to keep things consistent? [NO!] We just got things sorted with High Sierra for Chrissake! Am I going to have Freshman purchasing laptops that will only run Mojave this fall? [quite possible] Our IT has been lagging back in OS support as it is. Oy.


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## lucianogiacomozzi (Jun 6, 2018)

I’ve given up on Apple... I’m with them until my iMac is no longer supported.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 6, 2018)

gsilbers said:


> I downloaded "OpenGL Extensions Viewer" and selected OPENGL to see what version it supported.
> and went by this:
> "If OpenGL 4.3 is supported -> metal ok
> 
> ...



Yeah, I downloaded that program after reading your earlier post.

The thing is, you kinda need to know what card to buy (if you want to keep up, which for me isn't a given) in advance, not whether your card that you already know doesn't support Metal supports Metal.


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## gsilbers (Jun 6, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Yeah, I downloaded that program after reading your earlier post.
> 
> The thing is, you kinda need to know what card to buy (if you want to keep up, which for me isn't a given) in advance, not whether your card that you already know doesn't support Metal supports Metal.



oh I see. and also I guess knowing if a new card will be enough to be able to install Mojave. thats whats im still trying to find out.


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## ironbut (Jun 6, 2018)

Mine's a mid 2012 5,1. I installed an Nvidia 1070 and it says metal supported.
I don't know if that's any help but there it is.

I'm in no rush to install Mojave (on sierra now) but this is a good reminder to make a HS thumb drive installer while it's still up on the App Store (if and when I want to install High Sierra).


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## procreative (Jun 6, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Try this: https://github.com/julian-poidevin/MBPMid2010_GPUFix
> 
> That problem is related to a cheap capacitor that Apple put into 2010 MBP's which can't handle the power surge created when it switches to the nVidia GPU. Some people have replaced the capacitor and solved the problem that way. I was going to do that soon, but now that I know Apple is going to deprecate the hardware entirely, for no good reason, its probably not worth spending the money to have it done. Anyway the above fix will solve your problem and everything will run fine.



Can I ask, this solution says its for 15" MBP. Mine is a 17".

Also it says "for intermittent black screen or loss of video" yet my issue only really occurs at startup and only since updating to High Sierra. The notes state this issue started with El Capitan, but I have not experienced this until now.

I am nervous about applying a fix for something that might not be the same thing.

Which is the default internal video chip the nVidea or Intel as I never paid attention before and I have a feeling the nVidea is used for the external output on the side?


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 6, 2018)

ask the author. I hadn't noticed the 15inch spec before.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 6, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> There's a lot of weird entitlement going on in this thread.
> 
> Bottom line is that Apple are a company who want to make money. Why should they continue to support the needs of 0.001 of the total user base? We're talking about Mac users on vintage hardware who are *deliberately avoiding buying new Macs.* I think I can spot the reason why Apple aren't so keen on spending time and resources on those guys...
> 
> ...


Well, just for another POV:

I’m not expecting my 2008 Mac Pro to be supported by newer systems. It would be nice, but whatever.

OTOH, I’ve been an Apple user since 1989. I own 4 Macs (newest 2012), an iPhone, an iPad, my wife has one of each of those, I buy books in iBooks and music on iTunes. I also have music on iTunes that Apple makes money from.

In other words, I continue to support Apple. So.


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## charlieclouser (Jun 6, 2018)

I found a solution!

Don't upgrade to Mojave.

Problem solved.


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## Geoff Grace (Jun 6, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> @babylonwaves thanks for the update. U-he seems to have fixed their High Sierra issues just last week—on May 31. Sweetwater's last update was two days earlier—on May 29. I'm glad that Soundtoys just released a High Sierra compatible version as well. I have a few other developers I still have to check in with, but maybe it's finally time to take the plunge.


It turns out that the Soundtoys update that created High Sierra compatibility caused other problems, so it may be best to wait for now. More here:

https://www.soundtoys.com/5-2-3_update/

Best, 

Geoff


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## charlieclouser (Jun 6, 2018)

Let's keep in mind that many of the new features in MacOS updates are aimed at enhancing the experience for "normal" users - those who use a MacBook for day-to-day computer tasks like browsing and building websites, editing photos and videos, etc. For them, stuff like HandOff, Siri, etc. are useful and interesting new features, and they probably don't rely on a room full of peripherals and plugins like we do. Their total investment is lower, and they drag their poor sticker-covered MacBook to every Starbucks in town, so by the time they're "forced" to upgrade by OS incompatibilities their machine often has been beat down to the point where they're ready for a fresh one anyway.

Also their pain level is a bit lower since they're not faced with scrapping audio interfaces, drive arrays, etc. 

For me, the temptation to upgrade to the latest MacOS version is nil. I'm still running Yosemite on my main rig because I still use Redmatica KeyMap and it won't go beyond El Cap. But I did make USB stick installers for Yosemite, El Cap, Sierra, and High Sierra so I can do whatever upgrades make sense at whatever time it's appropriate. I'll make an installer stick for Mojave when it comes out just in case. 

For our uses, what is the motivation to move to Mojave anyway?


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## EgM (Jun 6, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> I found a solution!
> 
> Don't upgrade to Mojave.
> 
> Problem solved.



Really? If you use Logic Pro X and want the new version/bug fixes, you HAVE to update eventually.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 6, 2018)

I’m on El Cap! Prolly be there for years


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## charlieclouser (Jun 6, 2018)

EgM said:


> Really? If you use Logic Pro X and want the new version/bug fixes, you HAVE to update eventually.



I'm still on LPX 10.2.4 and Yosemite. Works fine. 

That said, eventually I will succumb to the temptation of a newer version - but I'll lose some old favorite apps (like Redmatica) so I'm not in a hurry.


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## dgburns (Jun 6, 2018)

I went up to Sierra and the latest Logic. I can’t even remember the reason I felt compelled. But I think there was one (lol). I also just hate feeling ‘left behind’ even when I know there’s no other reason I’m updating then cause it’s shiny and new. (again lol)

That said, I’m really digging the new reverb, step fx and mellotron, I’ve used them all alot in the past few days, so I feel good about Sierra/LPX 10.4


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 7, 2018)

EgM said:


> Really? If you use Logic Pro X and want the new version/bug fixes, you HAVE to update eventually.



+1. The latest version of LPX is killer.


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## gsilbers (Jun 7, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> +1. The latest version of LPX is killer.



totally.. and 
imagine if LPX added multi lane cc control like in cubase!
OR if they added right click controll cc like in ableton live to easily touch and controll cc with one click! 

and what happens if they add it on only mojave?! 

i could still work with what i have but lpx has indeed getting better.. while the rest of apple... getting more "adaptorize"


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## Ashermusic (Jun 7, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> I found a solution!
> 
> Don't upgrade to Mojave.
> 
> Problem solved.



That was my point.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 7, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> That was my point.



I disagree. That was not your point.





charlieclouser said:


> Let's keep in mind that many of the new features in MacOS updates are aimed at enhancing the experience for "normal" users - those who use a MacBook for day-to-day computer tasks like browsing and building websites, editing photos and videos, etc. For them, stuff like HandOff, Siri, etc. are useful and interesting new features, and they probably don't rely on a room full of peripherals and plugins like we do.



I use my main machine for everything, and I wish it had Handoff like my MacBook Air (which I use for traveling) does. But I don't wish for it enough to part with over $100 for a Bluetooth card that supports it.

Now Siri, feh. I don't even use that on my iPhone.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 7, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> Let's keep in mind that many of the new features in MacOS updates are aimed at enhancing the experience for "normal" users - those who use a MacBook for day-to-day computer tasks like browsing and building websites, editing photos and videos, etc. For them, stuff like HandOff, Siri, etc. are useful and interesting new features, and they probably don't rely on a room full of peripherals and plugins like we do. Their total investment is lower, and they drag their poor sticker-covered MacBook to every Starbucks in town, so by the time they're "forced" to upgrade by OS incompatibilities their machine often has been beat down to the point where they're ready for a fresh one anyway.



Not necessarily, I know many composers (both professional and hobbyists) who use a MB Pro for their main rig....including myself. I control several peripherals, including a slave, from the laptop. It's basically just a smaller iMac. I'm pretty sure @whinecellar uses one as his master as well. That being said, I agree a lot of the updates include "fluff", but for a rock solid version of LPX (and the new features) it's totally worth it for me.


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## gsilbers (Jun 7, 2018)

ironbut said:


> Mine's a mid 2012 5,1. I installed an Nvidia 1070 and it says metal supported.
> I don't know if that's any help but there it is.
> 
> I'm in no rush to install Mojave (on sierra now) but this is a good reminder to make a HS thumb drive installer while it's still up on the App Store (if and when I want to install High Sierra).



very helpful actually. do you know if it didn't support metal on older/stock video card?


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Jun 7, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> @babylonwaves thanks for the update. U-he seems to have fixed their High Sierra issues just last week—on May 31. Sweetwater's last update was two days earlier—on May 29. I'm glad that Soundtoys just released a High Sierra compatible version as well. I have a few other developers I still have to check in with, but maybe it's finally time to take the plunge.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff


What do you mean SoundToys released a compatible version?
I am running on High Sierra and my version of SoundToys is 5.2.0.12502 which was from back in 2017...

And I am missing something, because I just went to the website and noticed they have not released anything newer in my account??

EDIT: Found the link and the explanation to the reason for the older installers in my account. I have not tried to runt eh plugins on High Sierra yet either, and I think I just found out why I did not update before


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Jun 7, 2018)

sinkd said:


> As an educator who has to maintain an array of Macs purchased in cycles AND support software and a student laptop purchase, my bigger question is will I be able to hold new hardware to an older OS to keep things consistent? [NO!] We just got things sorted with High Sierra for Chrissake! Am I going to have Freshman purchasing laptops that will only run Mojave this fall? [quite possible] Our IT has been lagging back in OS support as it is. Oy.


Reminds me of when I was working at Imperial College in London on a contract. The number of Apple issues I had were astounding. Especially with the students buying the 'latest and greatest'. The best part was as someone who has run Apple OS for over 6 years now, I found almost none of them knew how to use their Macs. 

Seems to be a trend now as well, people want shiny toys, but cannot be bothered to learn how they work and how to get the most out them tech-wise :/


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## charlieclouser (Jun 7, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Now Siri, feh. I don't even use that on my iPhone.



I used Siri. Once. I asked her to play "Vato" by Snoop Dogg and she told me I wasn't connected to WiFi.


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## dgburns (Jun 7, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> I used Siri. Once. I asked her to play "Vato" by Snoop Dogg and she told me I wasn't connected to WiFi.



Just listened to it on youtube, Siri is smarter then she looks, she did you a favour, lol, maybe your wifi WAS connected


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## charlieclouser (Jun 7, 2018)

dgburns said:


> Just listened to it on youtube, Siri is smarter then she looks, she did you a favour, lol, maybe your wifi WAS connected



What?!?!? That cut is fantastic - the track is by Pharrell, you got B-Real's squeaky voice on the chorus, Snoop is wayyyy laid back, and the video is pure LA golden-hour CholoLocoGangBanger goodness. One of my favorites! I just didn't want to wait until I got home to hear it, but Siri wasn't having it.

"talkin' bout they gon get my chain and they gon leave wit it" - love that stuff.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 7, 2018)

Siri blows major chunks. Possibly the worst Apple initiative of all time. I use Google. I ask it a question vocally, it either answers or gives me links to the closest possible answer.

Along with being a longtime Apple client, I'm also a stockholder. Siri. Blows. Chunks.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 7, 2018)

Siri is also one of the things that forced people to upgrade hardware.


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## chimuelo (Jun 7, 2018)

Siri is cool because when my grandson gets too rambunctious I give him my iPad and Siri’s voice is a British female, keeps him busy long enough for me to make Coffee.
Siri fetches Chu Chu TV too. That channel is a lifesaver.


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## tmhuud (Jun 8, 2018)

chimuelo said:


> Siri is cool because when my grandson gets too rambunctious I give him my iPad and Siri’s voice is a British female, keeps him busy long enough for me to make Coffee.
> Siri fetches Chu Chu TV too. That channel is a lifesaver.



Lol. SIRI is great for me when I’m on the motorcycle. I’d go as far as saying she’s a lifesaver on my 2 wheels.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 8, 2018)

"SIRI, play "Born to be Wild" "

(SIRI plays "Born in the U.S.A.")

"Okay, SIRI, that's a good choice too."


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## procreative (Jun 8, 2018)

They will get you in the end, all it takes is a killer new feature in Logic like they did when they released 10.3 and it would only run in El Capitan and I was still on Snow Leopard. At least I could update, but if a new Kontakt, Maschine or Logic update requires Mojave...

I often wonder if Siri is actually some 3rd world person being paid 2 rupees a day to answer questions. Sometimes the answers remind me of those call centres where they obviously don't understand anything not in the script and their english is not quite good enough to understand.


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## babylonwaves (Jun 8, 2018)

gsilbers said:


> and what happens if they add it on only mojave?!


usually pro apps support three OS versions. right now it is 10.12 and up.


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## dgburns (Jun 8, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> What?!?!? That cut is fantastic - the track is by Pharrell, you got B-Real's squeaky voice on the chorus, Snoop is wayyyy laid back, and the video is pure LA golden-hour CholoLocoGangBanger goodness. One of my favorites! I just didn't want to wait until I got home to hear it, but Siri wasn't having it.
> 
> "talkin' bout they gon get my chain and they gon leave wit it" - love that stuff.



dunno, maybe ask me in a month, maybe then it’ll be my fav track. Some music takes time to get into. 

But at the moment I’m deep into Goth cause of the current assignment. And actually kinda diggin it too, like dating your ugly neighbour, all fun and games till your friends find out. lol


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## ironbut (Jun 8, 2018)

IIRC The only time an app made me upgrade to the "latest greatest" os version was for the first public (free) version of Unreal game developer's engine. I needed it for a "middleware" class (Fmod) and I haven't opened it since.
Pro Tools is usually the app that forces me to upgrade.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 8, 2018)

Actually, the one thing Siri is good for is its Shazzam-like feature. "Yo Siri what song is this" actually works.


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## Foni Al Foniya (Jun 8, 2018)

I never use high sierra but I want try Mojave, I hope and think macOS Mojave better than high sierra.

Whats your choice when u want to use mojave? Upgrade or Fresh Install?


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## robh (Jun 8, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> I used Siri. Once. I asked her to play "Vato" by Snoop Dogg and she told me I wasn't connected to WiFi.


You mean, you NEVER asked Siri why a firetruck is red?

Rob


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## whinecellar (Jun 8, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> ...I know many composers (both professional and hobbyists) who use a MB Pro for their main rig...I'm pretty sure @whinecellar uses one as his master as well...



True, and it has worked remarkably well for me. But given a choice and enough of a break between projects, I will jump at the chance to make the move to a fully loaded Mac Pro. I am tired of dealing with 5 machines - I drool at the thought of getting it all crammed into a single Mac Pro and maybe 1 slave for the mega projects 

I will say in the MB Pro's favor, it's nice to be able to crack it open while traveling and get work done, whether music or any other endeavors!


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## Vik (Jun 8, 2018)

robh said:


> You mean, you NEVER asked Siri why a firetruck is red?
> 
> Rob


I haven’t. But I know what she’ll answer if you ask her Do You Beatbox?


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## mjsalam (Jun 9, 2018)

If I were the one pulling the strings at Apple I might get more aggressive about dropping support for old Mac Pro's in an effort to the force hands knowing the new "more modular" Mac Pro is coming. That being said I have an Early 2009 which is still just great for me. I did upgrade most of the guts but still amazing to think its almost 10 years old!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 9, 2018)

mjsalam said:


> If I were the one pulling the strings at Apple I might get more aggressive about dropping support for old Mac Pro's in an effort to the force hands knowing the new "more modular" Mac Pro is coming. That being said I have an Early 2009 which is still just great for me. I did upgrade most of the guts but still amazing to think its almost 10 years old!



What's amazing to me is that for 30+ years we treated $2500 tools as being disposable after at most three years!

We've been chumps.


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## jiffybox (Jun 9, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What's amazing to me is that for 30+ years we treated $2500 tools as being disposable after at most three years!
> 
> We've been chumps.



Seriously. I mean, I'm deep in the Apple ecosystem and I suspect I will be for life, but what if Toyota made cars that lasted, say, 10 years tops and they stopped making parts and allowing for repairs after 8 or so years? Granted a car is 5-10 times a Mac (unless we're talking a souped up iMac Pro), but I don't think that business model would go over too well.


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## gsilbers (Jun 10, 2018)

mjsalam said:


> If I were the one pulling the strings at Apple I might get more aggressive about dropping support for old Mac Pro's in an effort to the force hands knowing the new "more modular" Mac Pro is coming. That being said I have an Early 2009 which is still just great for me. I did upgrade most of the guts but still amazing to think its almost 10 years old!




i dont mind too much about dropping support but its the shaky road ahead we are all seeing i dont like. 

a modular/better Mac Pro which will be totally diffent maybe way better than whats available now, and also big rumors about apple making their own cpu. which would mean a heck a of a lot of programmers would need to update and sell the updates or loose them like dureing the universal binary days. 
also, changing the macpro prodcution to the US instead of china. good for us but we dont have the manufacturing experience as china has so who knows about those 1st models coming out. 

And Apple is having so many issues currently. iphoneX didnt do too well. siri is way behind. homepod failed and very late on deliveries. iTunes and basic osx features are a joke. 
to me and other fans it seems tim cook doesnt have that power to sway its company to do better like steve jobs did. 

he is making money, yes. but waiting so long to do better or different hardware for the pro market?! 

we would of been extremely happy with this mac pro 2 concept
http://pascaleggert.de/macpro.html

same as the current one but more futureproof and a little bigger.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 10, 2018)

The Pro market is a blip on Apple’s bottom line. Apple just had a very good quarter. 

Yes, I would like to see more innovation, but the areas Apple is interested in are services, health, digital payment, etc.-ways to entice new customers into or keep existing customers in the ecosystem. The iPhone is doing very well (don’t read the headlines, read the numbers) but they want to reduce their dependency on phone hardware as their overwhelmingly major source of revenue, and they are slowly but surely doing so.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 10, 2018)

Everyone says Apple doesn't care about pro users, yet for example I see them coming up with major updates to Logic Pro all the time.

My question is how badly we need another Mac Pro.

So far I haven't felt any need to replace my upgraded 2009 machine. Maybe the reason they haven't been quick to replace the black Mac Pro is that they don't think the world needs it, i.e. they know computer years are now down to about 5 man years.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 10, 2018)

What's the installed base of Logic Pro vs the installed base of Photoshop, Office 365, Apple Music, iBooks etc?
We tend to think we're bigger than we are.

When I upgrade from my cheesegrater, I sure would like an Apple machine that is as fast and upgradable as the fastest PC at that moment, but built and integrated more elegantly. Then I'll wait a year for a refurb that I can afford.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 11, 2018)

Larry, the installed base of Logic being small is exactly my point.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 11, 2018)

Perhaps the lobotomy has reduced my deductive reasoning capabilities. On the other hand, my brain was too large to begin with. 

Seemed to me you were making the point that Apple DOES care about Pro users (per exemplum, Logic users). I don’t think they care so much as I doubt Logic sells a lot of Macs in the larger scheme of things.


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## gsilbers (Jun 11, 2018)

If anyone decides to try Mojave and has a cheese grater Mac and upgrades video card, let us know if thats enough. if thats so then I wouldn't mind buying a new video card.
I also have a iMac... for which I think I will just not upgrade and thats it. 
im guessing I still have 2-4 years before its a forceful upgrade (some plugins won't work, daw etc) 
but until then hopefully apples path on the new Mac Pro and cpu will be more clear. 

and who knows, maybe then something like an apple mini or laptops would be able to have one of those new crazy huge ssd drives and 64gb ram at reasonable prices.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 12, 2018)

NYC Composer said:


> Perhaps the lobotomy has reduced my deductive reasoning capabilities. On the other hand, my brain was too large to begin with.
> 
> Seemed to me you were making the point that Apple DOES care about Pro users (per exemplum, Logic users). I don’t think they care so much as I doubt Logic sells a lot of Macs in the larger scheme of things.



No, the lobotomy worked. I was making that point, and I think they do care about pro users.

One reason is that you don't get to be the biggest tech company in history without having passion. Another is that the level just beneath pro users is a really big market, and those people want what the pros are using.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 12, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Another is that the level just beneath pro users is a really big market, and those people want what the pros are using.


That's a good point, and clearly true when you realize that hobbyists are absolutely powering our little niche market.


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## Cire (Jun 18, 2018)

I'm just not sure the quality of music in itself has become any better with all this digital "update & upgrade" rat race.....IMHO, besides keeping people in jobs and businesses running, it seems to just facilitate too many people polluting airwaves with their computer-generated plonk & making them believe they're the bee's knees. All I know is that whether I use Facetime on, say, OS 10.9 or 10.13, my mother-in-law still looks and sounds the same.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 19, 2018)

Maybe with Mojave she'll be 3 dimensional.


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## clisma (Jun 23, 2018)

gsilbers said:


> If anyone decides to try Mojave and has a cheese grater Mac and upgrades video card, let us know if thats enough. if thats so then I wouldn't mind buying a new video card.
> I also have a iMac... for which I think I will just not upgrade and thats it.
> im guessing I still have 2-4 years before its a forceful upgrade (some plugins won't work, daw etc)
> but until then hopefully apples path on the new Mac Pro and cpu will be more clear.
> ...


I have not tried the Mojave beta but I did purchase and install an Nvidia GTX750 Ti from MVC to replace the stock graphics card in my flashed 4,1. After a bit of fiddling about, and thanks to @Nick Batzdorf info in this post, I can confirm that my system now has "Metal Support" and 4K at 60Hz on a second screen.

The owner of MVC appears to have successfully installed the Mojave beta. Apparently all his cards for the 4,1/5,1 will run on metal.


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