# First time mixing orchestral piece



## LauraC (Feb 6, 2021)

Hi everyone! So, I've been comfortable mixing my original music that wasn't orchestral - and this feels to be starting all over again. Balancing is not the big deal - as I'm mostly through that. Normally, I'd have a reverb channel, EQ just about every instrument individually, add a little compression and then do some final Eq-ing, compression & limiting on the master channel.

As these VIs have all been processed to some extent, and have different room feels, depending on the library creator, is there a best practices approach to this?

My solo violin is pretty dry, and sounds great, whereas, all the sections have some room action going on. I'm thinking in the future, it might be a good idea to finesse this during the MIDI stage, but that ship has sailed. Next project.

I really don't see a need to add *more* reverb to any of it, actually, and was going to EQ each - to make space and get rid of any high & low build-up. 

Thoughts? Thank you so much~
Laura


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## mussnig (Feb 6, 2021)

Could you post some examples? It's a bit hard to tell otherwise ...

I am by far no export for mixing but usually, when you have roomy samples and mix them together with something dry, you will need to put the dry things into a/the room - even if it's a solo violin. So I would suggest giving a bit of reverb to your dry solo violin - also play around with the amount of early and late reflections as well as pre-delay. Even though you don't see a need for it, I would still try and experiment a bit with that. Sometimes people also give a little bit of reverb tail over everything in the end, to kind of "glue" things together. Depending on if and how much of this tail reverb you are putting on things, you might want to be conservative with all the reverb before.

Sometimes you also need to work on the placement in the room, e.g., bring stuff more to the back if it was recorded too close, etc. There are free tools for this, like Panagement.


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## goonman (Feb 6, 2021)

Was there a piece of music to listen to or do you just want a response based on your comments? Much of what you said sounds like your standard workflow. If you don't mind my asking, why are you EQing every instrument?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 6, 2021)

You'll want to add some reverb to stuff like dry solo instruments. Otherwise, especially if the sections have their natural ambience baked in, the solo instrument is gonna sound tacked on, or like an overdub from some completely different recording. So it's a good idea to try to match the section ambience with a reverb plugin and add a bit of that to the solo instrument. It's not just about the reverb tail, but also the perceived depth and distance - if the violin is too dry, it will sound way too close to work within the context of the rest of the orchestra. You wanna push it back to it appears to be in the same space. So I wouldn't necessarily make a hard rule about not adding any more reverb.

EQ is always a good idea. IMO, many people feel too safe about samples already sounding good and not needing much work. It sounds OK - until you make it a lot better. Many sampled instruments aren't recorded that clean, unfortunately. Often there's an ugly, pinching high frequency hiss that's just not necessary and that can be tamed by a low pass. Many libraries have tons of low rumble in there, which should really be filtered out.

There's also this phenomenon of "room buildup" - a sample might sound great on its own, but then if you're playing chords and harmonies, and then also other ambient instruments come in and it becomes more and more samples upon samples upon samples, it can get really muddy and undefined because of all that ambience and resonances that are getting stacked upon each other. As a result, you often get tons of low and low mid crap that just totally clouds the overall sound and can mislead one into trying to further enhance the top end and "air" because it sounds so muddy and muffled - which ironically makes the problem of the unpleasant hiss worse. Cleaning up that low mid mud can do wonders.

And then there's instruments that just always sound kind of weird when they're sampled. Oboes, trumpets, etc. Stuff that isn't that bad in real life but for some reason in samples gets amplified. Nasal honk, thin, piercing top end ... break out those EQs and kill it with fire!

Personally, I prefer bouncing stuff to audio before I mix anything. It's just a different headspace. MIDI to me is about sculpting the performance, programming, screwing around with all the technical nonsense that comes with working with samples. I don't want that to interfere with the decisions that are made while working on sonics.


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## LauraC (Feb 6, 2021)

goonman said:


> Was there a piece of music to listen to or do you just want a response based on your comments? Much of what you said sounds like your standard workflow. If you don't mind my asking, why are you EQing every instrument?


I'll post one in a moment.


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## LauraC (Feb 6, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> You'll want to add some reverb to stuff like dry solo instruments. Otherwise, especially if the sections have their natural ambience baked in, the solo instrument is gonna sound tacked on, or like an overdub from some completely different recording. So it's a good idea to try to match the section ambience with a reverb plugin and add a bit of that to the solo instrument. It's not just about the reverb tail, but also the perceived depth and distance - if the violin is too dry, it will sound way too close to work within the context of the rest of the orchestra. You wanna push it back to it appears to be in the same space. So I wouldn't necessarily make a hard rule about not adding any more reverb.
> 
> EQ is always a good idea. IMO, many people feel too safe about samples already sounding good and not needing much work. It sounds OK - until you make it a lot better. Many sampled instruments aren't recorded that clean, unfortunately. Often there's an ugly, pinching high frequency hiss that's just not necessary and that can be tamed by a low pass. Many libraries have tons of low rumble in there, which should really be filtered out.
> 
> ...


I do render to audio to mix, which is where I am now. I also agree about EQing - it's also how I was taught: that energy builds up and creates mud, and removing all unnecessary frequencies help with that. I'll post in a sec.


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## LauraC (Feb 6, 2021)

Okay - here ya go: Five Minor Frights


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## Polkasound (Feb 6, 2021)

LauraC said:


> Okay - here ya go: Five Minor Frights


Not intending to derail the thread, but I took a side trip down your SoundCloud page. Whatever you do, don't step away from songwriting for too long. You've got some serious chops in that department. _"I once went to a rodeo and, gave a kiss to the Marlboro man; the crowd gave me quite a hand..."_ In context with the song, that's an absolutely brilliant line, and your other songs are peppered with lines like it. Have you considered pitching your songs?


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## LauraC (Feb 6, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> Not intending to derail the thread, but I took a side trip down your SoundCloud page. Whatever you do, don't step away from songwriting for too long. You've got some serious chops in that department. _"I once went to a rodeo and, gave a kiss to the Marlboro man; the crowd gave me quite a hand..."_ In context with the song, that's an absolutely brilliant line, and your other songs are peppered with lines like it. Have you considered pitching your songs?


Thank you! I literally ran out of words and started composing just music. I would love to sell my songs. I'm on Taxi now, and that's the only method I know of (?)


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## Polkasound (Feb 6, 2021)

I don't know much about TAXI, but I always thought if it as just one avenue (and an expensive one at that.) You can also pitch your songs directly to local and regional artists. The benefit is that there aren't any grunts pre-screening your songs and tossing them out. If a band likes what they hear, they may wish to record your song or invite you to collaborate with their songwriters.


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## jaketanner (Feb 7, 2021)

LauraC said:


> Normally, I'd have a reverb channel, EQ just about every instrument individually, add a little compression and then do some final Eq-ing, compression & limiting on the master channel.


This is backwards...Mix INTO the master bus processing, then EQ individual tracks and compress as needed. The point of adding the processing first is because you will need to use less on your tracks...less is more. Unless you are using linear phase EQs, I'd recommend mixing INTO your bus processing...There are no rules of course, but this is usually how it's done.

For orchestral mixing of libraries, I use two reverbs...regardless. One adds a scoring stage and the other a hall...blend the scoring stage into the hall (separate auxes) until the orchestra "fills out". The exception to this is if the samples are bone dry as in some of VSL's libraries...then I will add an algo reverb to the sample to simulate a room, then same processing as everyone else. 

Lastly, while again, there are no rules, but using EQs that have been tried and true for orchestral mixing on the master work best...particularly the Pultecs...it's just the way the top end sounds compared to say an SSL. 

Good luck.


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## LauraC (Feb 7, 2021)

jaketanner said:


> This is backwards...Mix INTO the master bus processing, then EQ individual tracks and compress as needed. The point of adding the processing first is because you will need to use less on your tracks...less is more. Unless you are using linear phase EQs, I'd recommend mixing INTO your bus processing...There are no rules of course, but this is usually how it's done.
> 
> For orchestral mixing of libraries, I use two reverbs...regardless. One adds a scoring stage and the other a hall...blend the scoring stage into the hall (separate auxes) until the orchestra "fills out". The exception to this is if the samples are bone dry as in some of VSL's libraries...then I will add an algo reverb to the sample to simulate a room, then same processing as everyone else.
> 
> ...


Thank you! That is exactly the info O was looking for. I appreciate your input.


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## Alex Niedt (Feb 8, 2021)

LauraC said:


> I really don't see a need to add *more* reverb to any of it, actually, and was going to EQ each - to make space and get rid of any high & low build-up.


Hi Laura! If you don't see a need for something, *don't do it*. A lot of people starting out add reverb and various processing because they feel like they _should_ rather than feeling like it's actually necessary. If you EQ or compress something, make sure you have an actual reason for doing so. Like any genre, there are no rules, and whatever sounds good is good. But you don't need to add reverb to anything by default or EQ everything by default or do _anything_ by default. Make sure if you filter to get rid of high or low build-up that such a build-up actually exists (and bothers you) first, or you could end up losing body/energy that's more beneficial than detrimental. Less is often more, in terms of mixing orchestral stuff. And most of the time, additional effort spent working with mic mixes yields a far more natural result than forcing something with EQ and reverb.


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## ericmusic67 (Feb 8, 2021)

hi,

for the reverb in order to avoid phase problems I use erearvb 2. it is then possible to place your instruments in space. The sound is much more realistic since this change.
I have since removed the reverb of the instruments provided
EAReverb 2 eaReckon


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## Manaberry (Feb 8, 2021)

jaketanner said:


> This is backwards...Mix INTO the master bus processing, then EQ individual tracks and compress as needed. The point of adding the processing first is because you will need to use less on your tracks...less is more. Unless you are using linear phase EQs, I'd recommend mixing INTO your bus processing...There are no rules of course, but this is usually how it's done.


Oh boy, I'm having hundred of plugins everywhere. But tiny change on each.

I'm gonna push the same point as others: tweak something only if you have to, not because others do. And most importantly, trust your ears as you mix along with references.


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## jaketanner (Feb 8, 2021)

Manaberry said:


> Oh boy, I'm having hundred of plugins everywhere. But tiny change on each.
> 
> I'm gonna push the same point as others: tweak something only if you have to, not because others do. And most importantly, trust your ears as you mix along with references.


I will often start a mix (pop/rock) with my trusted analog console plugin on every channel...but I don't tweak every channel either...this gives all channels the same sound. So many approaches though...


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## Jeremy Spencer (Feb 9, 2021)

LauraC said:


> Okay - here ya go: Five Minor Frights


Cool piece. Personally, I don't think mixing is really an issue here, it's more the actual programming. I would revisit this, and try to add dynamics to the instruments to give them more realism. 

Regarding TAXI, have you ever checked out songtradr.com? The have daily briefs where you can submit your music for free (pretty much any genre).


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## José Herring (Feb 9, 2021)

Like you mentioned a lot of your problems would be fixed in the programming stage, picking the right patches for the lines, learning to connect lines more. Also in the composing stages of learning more about how to orchestrate and how to fill out harmonies. 

But that ship has sailed and so now you'll need to concentrate on placing your instruments left to right on a stage and depth.

Use at least 2 reverbs one for a "room" sound and one for a "Hall sound". The "room" has to match the dimensions of your "wettest" libraries. If you're using BBCSO then that room is huge. Bigger than most halls so your dry libraries have to run through a room that is at least as big first, then you'll need to use a hall verb to glue it all together. That's the balancing act when using VI recorded in different spaces. 

So left, center, right panning and front to back spacing. 

I know a lot of people use positioning software ect. but I'm always amazed that the top orchestra mixers tend to use the basic tools very cleverly first then use more advanced tools if they can't get what they want with just a regular pan knob, eq, and reverb.


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## ericmusic67 (Feb 9, 2021)

hello Laura,

I think we have to do some work on expression. you should watch this.
scoring tools Master Class


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## LauraC (Feb 10, 2021)

ericmusic67 said:


> hello Laura,
> 
> I think we have to do some work on expression. you should watch this.
> scoring tools Master Class


Perfect. Thank you so much!


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## LauraC (Feb 10, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Cool piece. Personally, I don't think mixing is really an issue here, it's more the actual programming. I would revisit this, and try to add dynamics to the instruments to give them more realism.
> 
> Regarding TAXI, have you ever checked out songtradr.com? The have daily briefs where you can submit your music for free (pretty much any genre).


You are spot on. As I’m a beginner with MIDI programming, that is where my biggest challenges are now. Thank you!


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## LauraC (Feb 10, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> Hi Laura! If you don't see a need for something, *don't do it*. A lot of people starting out add reverb and various processing because they feel like they _should_ rather than feeling like it's actually necessary. If you EQ or compress something, make sure you have an actual reason for doing so. Like any genre, there are no rules, and whatever sounds good is good. But you don't need to add reverb to anything by default or EQ everything by default or do _anything_ by default. Make sure if you filter to get rid of high or low build-up that such a build-up actually exists (and bothers you) first, or you could end up losing body/energy that's more beneficial than detrimental. Less is often more, in terms of mixing orchestral stuff. And most of the time, additional effort spent working with mic mixes yields a far more natural result than forcing something with EQ and reverb.


Thank you. Sometimes all I’m doing is rolling off some unneeded low end and carving out space for other frequencies.


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## LauraC (Feb 10, 2021)

Thank you to everyone for taking the time to listen and comment. I appreciate the help and pointing me in the right direction. I’m in the middle of a composition course and would love to dive in to some formal coursework to further my programming, so please share if you know of any.

It will be interesting to hear what this piece will sound like when I revisit it in a year. For now I’ll keep at it and continue writing and asking for your guidance. Thanks again!


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