# Showreel Legal Issues



## alanbuchanan (Jan 8, 2013)

I'll make it a short one:

If I have a load of excerpts from TV shows/films, compose (my own) music to go with them, then assemble them as a showreel, and then use the showreel to send to music supervision companies (etc), is there anything I should worry about?


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## jcs88 (Jan 8, 2013)

Yes - don't do it.
They will realise it's copyrighted and they really don't like this.
Heaven forbid someone sees it who was involved in one of the clips, and you are in serious trouble.

Get permission for clips, find stuff in the public domain.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 8, 2013)

What he said ^ 

Assuming, of course, that you are not the composer who worked on any of those TV shows/films. If you are, then it's not a problem, but if you aren't, that's a good way to get sued, and blacklisted fro the industry for the rest of your life.

Cheers.


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## reddognoyz (Jan 8, 2013)

I've gotten many demo's from composers who are trying to build a reel by scoring existing commercials or scenes. I think the obvious legal issues would stay under the radar, but I sure as hell wouldn't post them on you tube or anything public like that!

A bigger issue for me is that if your sending me a fake commercial/filmscore for demo purposes, you might as well preface your pitch to me with "Well I've never actually done this before, but if I had..."

If you're interested on working on a specific project, see if you can get a scene or rough cut to score. If anyone's serious about checking your scoring ability/esthetic they should be able to make the modest effort to get you something to score, with dialog and w/o existing music. That's the litmus test for me.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 8, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> What he said ^
> 
> Assuming, of course, that you are not the composer who worked on any of those TV shows/films. If you are, then it's not a problem, but if you aren't, that's a good way to get sued, and blacklisted fro the industry for the rest of your life.
> 
> Cheers.



Sued for what? Misrepresentation? If you include some disclaimer like " for music demo purposes only" or some such, i think you'd be alright. After all, you're not purporting to have written someone else's music. I think anyone who would sue you for whats obviouly a profitless demo reel is desperate for litigation. I disagree about "blacklisted from the industry" as well- what, some vengeful producer is going to send out a an email warning " the industry" about an unknown composer? Very doubtful anyone would waste the time or effort.

It's probably a better idea to get some clean footage though. Haunt the film schools, call directors of smaller films, rent clips from Getty or some other library, or maybe find free footage online. Good luck.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 8, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> Sued for what? Misrepresentation? If you include some disclaimer like " for music demo purposes only" or some such, i think you'd be alright. After all, you're not purporting to have written someone else's music.



It's called copyright infringement. Copyright infringement is not limited to (as two exs) a song that uses a melody from another song, and a book with passges lifted from another book. It also covers use - including reproduction, distribution and display of the copyrighted works.

_A party may seek to protect his or her copyrights against unauthorized use by filing a civil lawsuit in federal district court. _

and

_If you use a copyrighted work without authorization, the owner may be entitled to bring an infringement action against you. _

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html



NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> I disagree about "blacklisted from the industry" as well....



Well, you can disagree with that if you choose to....



NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> what, some vengeful producer is going to send out a an email warning " the industry" about an unknown composer?



Something like that.

Cheers.


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## MichaelL (Jan 8, 2013)

reddognoyz @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> A bigger issue for me is that if your sending me a fake commercial/filmscore for demo purposes, you might as well preface your pitch to me with "Well I've never actually done this before, but if I had..."



What he said ^.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 8, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Sued for what? Misrepresentation? If you include some disclaimer like " for music demo purposes only" or some such, i think you'd be alright. After all, you're not purporting to have written someone else's music.
> ...



Not necessary to be patronizing- i know what a copyright is. Where's the infringement? Who is harmed?


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## chimuelo (Jan 8, 2013)

It's the law chief. And years ago I saw how an angry musician got revenge.

They showcased thier Band and original material to the Road Manager of a well known (signed ) group, in hopes of being an opening act and have a finished product for the upcoming tour.
He lost out to Twistd Sister, but the former "rock God singer" then went on to record with another signed band, and used the Keyboard players tunes w/o permission.

Naturally he wanted to call him and tell him to stop, but the Bass players brother was a patent lawyer and told him to wait for the music to be recorded then get air play, then to strike.

Now he sued for copyright infringement and got the Radio station and the record company. After the RIAA advised them to settle out, he recieved 190k after fees, and back in the early days of MTV in the '80's that was a nice chunk of change.

An example of the right way is to get permission, like the cat who did a rap tune of Stings " Every breath you take." The guy had that tune in the Movie Rush Hour, and several other venues, Sting made his cut, the artists made Bank and everyone was happy.

Even if a disclaimer is used, you MUST get permission, and not some verbal agreement, but a royalty based agreement, as if the person attains recognition or employment, he is still benefitting from the material others have copyrights to.
And if those people sold their services for a flat rate to a major network you WILL be up Shit Creek w/o a Paddle.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 8, 2013)

chimuelo @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> It's the law chief. And years ago I saw how an angry musician got revenge.
> 
> They showcased thier Band and original material to the Road Manager of a well known (signed ) group, in hopes of being an opening act and have a finished product for the upcoming tour.
> He lost out to Twistd Sister, but the former "rock God singer" then went on to record with another signed band, and used the Keyboard players tunes w/o permission.
> ...



Jim, i swear if you continue to call me Chief, i will start referring to you as Sparky :wink: 

I worked in music for advertising for over 25 years, so i might know a few things about copyright law, certainly not everything. In the example as described , there is no infringement of music copyright because the guy is not presenting someone else's music and claiming it as his- he's presenting hs own. He's not claiming to have done the video- so no infringement there. Who is harmed, where is the infringement, and what's the incentive for anyone to go after him in any way other than, at worst, a cease and desist?

Michael, if you're still watching this thread, am I way off base here?


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## Jimbo 88 (Jan 8, 2013)

You can use anything to create a demo and as long as you are not selling the material you are fine.

The "Chief" (NYComposer) is correct

Here is the best thing to do these days:
Do your demo scores with what ever you can get your hands on (it is not a bad way to develop your skills) and keep them close at hand.
Create an audio reel (of completely original music) and shop that around. Nobody watches demos anymore, but maybe listens to a CD or dloads MP3s.
If a client contacts you and asks if you can score a certain kind of scene then grab your samples and say "here is how I would have done this..."

this is all kinda crazy talk 'cause nobody gets hired on their "amazing demo". You get hired by getting in the trenches and creating relationships.


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## choc0thrax (Jan 8, 2013)

I hear SWAT teams just busted into Rian Johnson's and Joe Carnahan's houses. 

http://vimeo.com/51294350#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=92cVd9HalHs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 2cVd9HalHs)

All other directors who've ever pitched for a job are now in hiding.

Kevin Tancharoen's lawyer is gonna love him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcXf90kB1cI&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcXf90kB ... r_embedded)


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## RiffWraith (Jan 8, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> Not necessary to be patronizing- i know what a copyright is.



I am sorry, I didn't think what I said was patronizing.



Jimbo 88 @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> You can use anything to create a demo and as long as you are not selling the material you are fine.



That is simply 100% false. 







See the part where is says "infringement without monetary gain"? 

It's like this: You are not allowed* to use *anyone's intellectual property in whole or in part for any reason whatsoever without their permission. The exception is fair use, which this of course, is not. The fact that you are not selling/making money from that use does not absolve you from following copyright law. 

Now, if you take a part of a movie, and use it in your demo reel, are you going to prison for five years? Of course not. But you do open yourself to a lawsuit.

Cheers.


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## chimuelo (Jan 8, 2013)

Sparky 'eh..? I like that, but I'll stop calling you Chief. It's a habit from watching McCloud, and Get Smart re runs too much.. :wink: 

Hey let the guy go and find out.
I wouldn't ever try that. Even here in Las Vegas there were tribute bands and lawsuits and there was no "harm" but there were settlements even on that, so
you must ask yourself if you think you'll be able to pull it off or not.

Look at the recent Meatloaf Tribute guy from the UK who coughed up 20 large at the mandatory settlement hearing.
Why give anyone a reason?

But good luck in the trenches,

May you succeed in your endeavors... 8)


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## NYC Composer (Jan 8, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Not necessary to be patronizing- i know what a copyright is.
> ...



Ok, so are you suggesting he'd be opening hiself up to a lawsuit from the creators of the video portion?


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## Jimbo 88 (Jan 8, 2013)

Jimbo 88 @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> You can use anything to create a demo and as long as you are not selling the material you are fine.
> 
> That is simply 100% false.
> 
> ...


.[/quote]

Sorry, 100% true...if you are not distributing the material, just using as a demo there is no infringement. just as NYC Composer points out. 

People in Advertising do this on a daily basis.

What about temp tracks? Do they not fall under the same property issues?
Are Temp tracks illegal? (Perhaps they should be). That is all copy written material created for a different use.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 9, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> Ok, so are you suggesting he'd be opening hiself up to a lawsuit from the creators of the video portion?



Yes. I am not saying that the movie studio(s) _would _sue; I am saying that they can.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 9, 2013)

Jimbo 88 @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> What about temp tracks?



Who owns the publishing of the music used in temp tracks?


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## NYC Composer (Jan 9, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, so are you suggesting he'd be opening hiself up to a lawsuit from the creators of the video portion?
> ...



Ok, i agree. I think its highly doubtful, but its a litigous world.


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## Mike Greene (Jan 9, 2013)

chimuelo @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> Look at the recent Meatloaf Tribute guy from the UK who coughed up 20 large at the mandatory settlement hearing . . .


Sparky, are tribute bands not legal? I've always kinda assumed they were okay, but still wonder what would happen if push came to shove.


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## chimuelo (Jan 9, 2013)

I play it safe and don't do anything except what our lawyer said, so we do an "era" and we do it better than all of these jive ass "boring" bands that do 1 artist all night long.
Here in LV there's everything from No Doubt to Joplin to Ozzy, etc.
These groups are all subject to litigation since it is at the discretion of those they emulate, and how the group benfits.

The Ozzy group is a trip.
First time I saw them they suckered me, as the singer (Ozzy) was pretending to be dizzy and feel into a Ghost stack of Marshalls, yet the band kept playing and we were like, DaYamn....is this guy OK....?
Then the Roadies came out and leaned him up against a sidefill and one guys was fanning him, the other had a bottle of water and a tray which he gave him so pills, and then pretended to snort some lines, and suddenly Oz jumps back up as if nothing happened...... :mrgreen: 

It's really hard to get over on a seasoned fellow like me, but I laughed my Ass off.
But I do believe that most of these Bands that "focus" on a certain band or celebrity have some form of agreements as the Casinos themselves can be held liable if they are profitting from this.

So I pay no protection money other than the SIIS insurance to the State, where if a bandmate gets hurt on the job, the State has the SIIS funds, and no lawsuits, etc.

OTOH, I just retired from 6 nights a week and landed convention gigs with an all new group, so it's weekends only, which to me is like a long deserved vacation.
2 nights is like a walk in the park.

But IMHO, in the future, all Cover bands might be at the mercy of shakedown lawyers, as this is training for our Politicians before they get the big lobbys like the NRA in DC, PNAC, etc.


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## Mike Greene (Jan 9, 2013)

That's a funny Ozzy, errr, I mean _Tribute_ Ozzy story.

Years ago, I had a client who made a pretty decent living doing a Tina Turner tribute. White girl. I kid you not. She'd go to the tanning salon every day to "Tan Tina." I can only imagine what her skin must look like today.

At the risk of going going even further off topic, this is the same girl who got breast implants and stopped by the studio to show them to me. She unbuttoned her top, lifted her bra and asked me _"How do they look?"_

I miss those demo studio days . . .


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## chimuelo (Jan 9, 2013)

You'd love Vegas. Starlets galore.

There's a joke round here that Sharon O. will sue the band because it's an inaccurate representation of the real Oz. 
He would never do lines that small....... o-[][]-o


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## NYC Composer (Jan 9, 2013)

choc0thrax @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> I hear SWAT teams just busted into Rian Johnson's and Joe Carnahan's houses.
> 
> http://vimeo.com/51294350#
> 
> ...



Right.

The ad agencies I worked for routinely used "Rip-O Matics" (also referred to as "Steal-O-Matics") in creative pitches. Rather than taking on the tremendous cost of shooting something high quality, they took clips from every commercial or film they could find that fit their concept and kludged them together (and gave them to me to score for a grand or two). These are billion dollar agencies we're talking about here.

Sadly, if they sold a concept, the commercial they shot rarely looked as good as the rip-o-matic.

So, could they be sued? Sure. Would they? They obviously felt the odds were tiny.


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## Kejero (Jan 10, 2013)

All potential legal consequences aside, it's just not worth it. It doesn't matter how good your music is. It's all about connections, and about being able to work together and having the experience working together. In other words: credits. If you don't have the credits, you should focus more on getting connections rather than "cold calling" with a demoreel.

Demoreels with copyrighted visuals that you didn't officially work on are looked down upon by many people. I'm sure plenty of people don't care, but the question you should ask yourself is, is it worth taking the risk to make a bad impression? I say it's not worth it at all.

My advice is: Use copyrighted material to hone your skills, but don't ever let it leave your studio.


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