# Ni - the grandeur



## BDReflet (Oct 4, 2020)

Hello guys,

I've recently heard a lot of good things about Native Instruments THE GRANDEUR piano. How would you compare it to your favorite piano vst or would you consider it one of your favorites? What are some of its pros and cons?


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## stubbsonic (Oct 4, 2020)

I have both THE GRANDEUR and PIANOTEQ PRO

The Grandeur is my go-to piano for keeper tracks. It has a beautiful, versatile sound. It is VERY mono-compatible (sounds equally good when summed to mono-- played through a single speaker). The controls for the sound work well and it sits nicely in the mix. The samples are impeccable. The only con is that it's just one flavor of piano. It just happens to be a very very good flavor.

Pianoteq is my go-to for a quick sound, for general composition/arranging sketching. It's versatile, tweakable and very expressive.

They both feel very satisfying and responsive to play. Grandeur has a more rich complexity than Pianoteq.

I listened to a bunch of pianos in a "shootout" a couple years ago. The Grandeur was my favorite of the bunch. See if you can find some comparison media.


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## Traz (Oct 4, 2020)

The Grandeur is the first piano I go for every time. I love the tone of it.

I would say it's my favorite piano of all the ones that I own.


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## jon wayne (Oct 4, 2020)

It was my go to for awhile. I always felt like it was a hidden gem. As the sampling world has improved dramatically over the last few years, I feel like it seems a little “safe”. I recognize the sound of it immediately, so I have steered away from using it often. I feel like the Simple Sam has a lot more character and versatility, but I will say they the Grandeur is still the “safe” piano and works well in lots of styles.


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## Trace (Oct 4, 2020)

For what it’s worth...

i Own several piano libraries: piano tech, Arturia, Simple Sam, Keyscape, Ivory II, and more. I really like The Grandeur. It seems to suffer less from weird volicity issues. I really wanted to like the Simple Sam piano, but I do not like the way it feels. I haven’t found a velocity setting that feels right with it.


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## Alex C (Oct 4, 2020)

Very good close-miked sound. Tone is very even, even though upper regions are slightly thinner sounding (still good but not perfect). Pedal Resonance is quite good and effective, but not perfect. Overall it's good for Jazz, film and contemporary music.




Trace said:


> I really wanted to like the Simple Sam piano, but I do not like the way it feels. I haven’t found a velocity setting that feels right with it.



Same for me. Great tone and room but I struggle with the velocity response and the 'pedal resonance' is simply not beautiful. Simple Sam is better when I listen to the demos then when I play it.


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## Theladur (Oct 5, 2020)

I really like the tone of the Imperfect Samples pianos, but haven't got one of them yet.

However, I recently tried layering some of the "imperfect" pianos from Pianobook with the Grandeur, and this works really well. The pianos from Pianobook often lack some mid-top-end, and also often have too few velocity layers. But layered with the Grandeur, it improves the tonal quality and playability, but still retains the "imperfect" charme of the Pianobook samples.


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## TomislavEP (Oct 5, 2020)

I have and regularly use all the piano libraries from Galaxy / Native Instruments. "The Grandeur" is my go-to Steinway piano library, especially for jazz, new age, and pop styles. For neoclassical, however, I often prefer Walker D Lite by Embertone as an alternative.

Generally, I find "The Grandeur" to be the most chameleon-like piano in the mentioned series making it easy to fit into many different projects by sound and character. However, the latest one, "Noire" has many of these traits too, though with some more options and based on a different brand, of course.


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## Mornats (Oct 5, 2020)

I'm no piano connoisseur but any time I try and get a piano to work well in a mix it's usually the Grandeur that I've settled on. Otherwise Alicia's Keys is what I usually start with for a standard piano. Outside of Komplete Ultimate the only grand piano I have is Addictive Keys Grand so I've not experienced a great range of them.


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## lux (Oct 5, 2020)

I use it quite a lot as well


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## SoNowWhat? (Oct 5, 2020)

The Grandeur is a solid piano VI. And I’d guess a lot of users have it as a part of their Komplete of choice. I used it a bit when I didn’t have many options. Also liked The Maverick. These days I have other options that I prefer. More character, dynamics, more “feel”. I still love Embertone Walker for Steinway and I enjoy Wavesfactory Mercury Fazioli (which is lighter on resources). I’d very much like to try Soniccouture’s pianos but can’t quite justify it at the moment. I think there are better options out there but it is solid and I never remember it doing anything it shouldn’t. But precisely because of that it can sound a little sterile. 

This is probably going to turn into a “list all your piano VI’s” thread so bare that in mind. And this is my opinion and preference on my system in my studio with my ears. YMMV and you should absolutely use whatever works for you to make music.


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## LudovicVDP (Oct 5, 2020)

I'm not a pianist and what I compose in never piano solo work that would require high definition/precision.
But The Grandeur is the first track I have in my template. It's my sketching tool.

I like it very much.
I have the Maverick which I never use.
I have recently purchased Noire that will definitely be used.
But at this time, The Grandeur is still my go-to.


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## Arbee (Oct 5, 2020)

Just picked up The Grandeur based on the love for it here. It seems to have just the right balance of warmth and good definition, really enjoying it. Controls are simple but effective.


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## Bluemount Score (Oct 5, 2020)

Probably my favorite go-to piano. Also I think the hard / soft control fader works really well and is pretty useful.


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## Tim_Wells (Oct 5, 2020)

Glad you started this thread. I've also been using Granduer as my go to, but always wondered if I was missing something. I've found pianos with a ton character get in my way when trying to play, compose, and mix. I really need something cleaner and more basic. 

I'm relatively new to being serious about piano and keys. Was always a guitar guy. So it's reassuring to hear others seal of approval.


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## BDReflet (Oct 5, 2020)

Tim_Wells said:


> Glad you started this thread. I've also been using Granduer as my go to, but always wondered if I was missing something. I've found pianos with a ton character get in my way when trying to play, compose, and mix. I really need something cleaner and more basic.
> 
> I'm relatively new to being serious about piano and keys. Was always a guitar guy. So it's reassuring to hear others seal of approval.


For sure. I recently saw a pole on favorite vst pianos and The Grandeur came out way above all the rest, so I thought "I need to look into this Library!". The feedback here is great!


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## BDReflet (Oct 5, 2020)

Bluemount Score said:


> Probably my favorite go-to piano. Also I think the hard / soft control fader works really well and is pretty useful.


Great to hear! Thanks for your feedback.


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## BDReflet (Oct 5, 2020)

stubbsonic said:


> I have both THE GRANDEUR and PIANOTEQ PRO
> 
> The Grandeur is my go-to piano for keeper tracks. It has a beautiful, versatile sound. It is VERY mono-compatible (sounds equally good when summed to mono-- played through a single speaker). The controls for the sound work well and it sits nicely in the mix. The samples are impeccable. The only con is that it's just one flavor of piano. It just happens to be a very very good flavor.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your feedback! I was recently creating a soft piece and mixing in mono using the Lekko piano. I had some trouble getting it to soften into the mix. Do you have to do much EQ with the Grandeur or does it sit pretty well on its own?


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## Vovique (Oct 5, 2020)

I never got to download Grandeur as part of Komplete, so doing it now!


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## BDReflet (Oct 5, 2020)

Vovique said:


> I never got to download Grandeur as part of Komplete, so doing it now!


Would love to hear your thoughts once you play around with it.


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## Monkberry (Oct 5, 2020)

Add me to the list of Grandeur fans. I find it the least combative for placement in a variety of environments and is extremely well-balanced. I initially was settled on Ivory II for quite some time but after reading some convincing testimonials, I gradually warmed to Grandeur. It's easy to sculpt to the mix in general, although I still grab Noire for some tasks.


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## DS_Joost (Oct 5, 2020)

The Grandeur is a very good piano. I do find it very neutral. Too neutral. Meaning, you can't go wrong with it in a mix, buuuuuuuuut...

the very best piano in Komplete, one that is constantly overlooked but is really, really good, is Alicia's Keys. This thing is my go-to every single time. I tried to replace it but I just can't. I always return to it. It fits every single situation, and every mix I do. And yet still, it's got plenty of character.

I don't know what they did with that thing, but it's just perfect. Like they put magic sauce on the keys before recording. The velocity response, the tone of the higher keys (no pling!), the controlled bass in the lower regions... I just can't find any fault with it.


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## BDReflet (Oct 5, 2020)

Monkberry said:


> Add me to the list of Grandeur fans. I find it the least combative for placement in a variety of environments and is extremely well-balanced. I initially was settled on Ivory II for quite some time but after reading some convincing testimonials, I gradually warmed to Grandeur. It's easy to sculpt to the mix in general, although I still grab Noire for some tasks.


Good to know! Thanks for the feedback.


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## BDReflet (Oct 5, 2020)

DS_Joost said:


> The Grandeur is a very good piano. Can't go wrong with it, buuuuuuuuut...
> 
> the very best piano in Komplete, one that is constantly overlooked but is really, really good, is Alicia's Keys. This thing is my go-to every single time. I tried to replace it but I just can't. I always return to it. It fits every single situation, and every mix I do. And yet still, it's got plenty of character.
> 
> I don't know what they did with that thing, but it's just perfect. Like they put magic sauce on the keys before recording. The velocity response, the tone of the higher keys (no pling!), the controlled bass in the lower regions... I just can't find any fault with it.


Thanks for the recommendation. I've heard a lot of good about Alicia's Keys as well. What would you say is its best performance style/genre?


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## Alfeus Aditya (Oct 5, 2020)

I am a Grandeur user, for live and also recordings. I have many other piano vsti, i always come back to grandeur. I like the sterile piano sound.


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## BDReflet (Oct 5, 2020)

Alfeus Aditya said:


> I am a Grandeur user, for live and also recordings. I have many other piano vsti, i always come back to grandeur. I like the sterile piano sound.


Awesome! Thanks for the feedback!


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## DS_Joost (Oct 5, 2020)

BDReflet said:


> Thanks for the recommendation. I've heard a lot of good about Alicia's Keys as well. What would you say is its best performance style/genre?



Everything. Not kidding. When I say I use it on everything, I do mean I use it on everything.


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## BDReflet (Oct 5, 2020)

DS_Joost said:


> Everything. Not kidding. When I say I use it on everything, I do mean I use it on everything.


That's Awesome!


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## stubbsonic (Oct 5, 2020)

BDReflet said:


> Do you have to do much EQ with the Grandeur or does it sit pretty well on its own?



It's a well-recorded solo piano sound (i.e., not for "sitting in a mix"). They may have done some EQ at the recording stage, but only to make a general/neutral sound.


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## Robert_G (Oct 5, 2020)

Very stable and doesnt have any hickups. Does what it should in pretty much all situations. I used it for well over a year in my projects.

That being said, I now have the VSL Concert D Steinway so the Grandeur collects dust. 

But in fairness we are comparing a piano that came with my Komplete 12 package to a piano that costs over $300.


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## Neutron Star (Oct 5, 2020)

I have grandeur, pianoteq, noire, alicia keys, ascend, arturia V2. The one i use all the while for general playing, and that ends up in nearly every track i do. Arturia V2 Japanese grand.


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## BDReflet (Oct 5, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> Very stable and doesnt have any hickups. Does what it should in pretty much all situations. I used it for well over a year in my projects.
> 
> That being said, I now have the VSL Concert D Steinway so the Grandeur collects dust.
> 
> But in fairness we are comparing a piano that came with my Komplete 12 package to a piano that costs over $300.


Good to hear your feedback. What are some of the big differences you would compare with the Grandeur and VSL Concert D Steinway?


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## BDReflet (Oct 5, 2020)

Neutron Star said:


> I have grandeur, pianoteq, noire, alicia keys, ascend, arturia V2. The one i use all the while for general playing, and that ends up in nearly every track i do. Arturia V2 Japanese grand.


Nice! What is it that you specifically like about Arturia V2 Japanese grand compared to the Grandeur?


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## Neutron Star (Oct 5, 2020)

BDReflet said:


> Nice! What is it that you specifically like about Arturia V2 Japanese grand compared to the Grandeur?


The overall smooth rich tone, more detailed and refined sounding. Plus the playability. It just works fantastic in mixes. No artifacts that interfere with anything else. Its modelled, so its harmonic velocity response is also much more nuanced. The string resonance is vastly superior as its modelled rather than just one static sample. You need to tweek one of the presets to get the sound, but it actually sounds like a perfectly sampled piano rather than a modelled piano like pianoteq.


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## BDReflet (Oct 5, 2020)

Neutron Star said:


> The overall smooth rich tone, more detailed and refined sounding. Plus the playability. It just works fantastic in mixes. No artifacts that interfere with anything else. Its modelled, so its harmonic velocity response is also is much more nuanced. The string resonance is vastly superior as its modelled rather than just one static sample. You need to tweek one of the presets to get the sound, but it actually sounds like a perfectly sampled piano rather than a modelled piano like pianoteq.


That's great! I'll have to look at that one a bit more.


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## Robert_G (Oct 5, 2020)

BDReflet said:


> Good to hear your feedback. What are some of the big differences you would compare with the Grandeur and VSL Concert D Steinway?



How to explain it? Like comparing a Ferrari to a Honda Civic. Neither is a bad car, but no car magazine would ever waste the time explaining the differences. Kind of like that.


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## BDReflet (Oct 5, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> How to explain it? Like comparing a Ferrari to a Honda Civic. Neither is a bad car, but no car magazine would ever waste the time explaining the differences. Kind of like that.


Fair enough!


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## Hendrixon (Oct 6, 2020)

I never gave Alicia's Keys enough thought, but now I think I like it better (from the NI pianos) than the Grandeur and Noire.
I'm NOT a pianist and I feel that small pianos, like uprights, are very reviling, so if you're not a pianist that can make any piano sound amazing (like moi) it shows fast.
Since AKs is a C3, I played with it a little when I got komplete, but it collected binary dust since.
Coming into this thread, between the Grandeur and Noire I prefer the former, since Noire has this auto low pass filter that you can't disable and this makes it muffled at very low velocities and in general - with the filter opening and closing constantly - it makes the piano sound like it has an auto wah as insert effect.
The Grandeur is not perfect either, but it doesn't have that issue (really, only sampled pianos with not enough velocity layers use this trick, or at least not as aggressively as in Noire).

So why I pulled AKs from the shed?
I saw a couple here said that AKs is their favorite (of the NIs), so I gave it another try.
Well, it has 12 velocity layers, but they are ALL sampled nicely, lows not too muffled, tops not ringing or piercing... as a sampled piano? its way better then either grandeur or noire.
So I've made a custom velocity response to match my keyboard to AKs (I can't stress enough, this is the most important thing to do for any sampled piano), tweaked some EQ bands and now AKs sounds really pretty

It won't replace the hammersmith for me but it will definitely get played.
(Alicia's Keys > Grandeur > Noire)


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## Alex C (Oct 6, 2020)

You may like the sound more but Alicia's Keys is so much more flawed and limited when it comes to being a good piano.


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## Hendrixon (Oct 6, 2020)

Compared to Grandeur and Noire, or others?
And do share what is flawed with it please.


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## BDReflet (Oct 6, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> I never gave Alicia's Keys enough thought, but now I think I like it better (from the NI pianos) than the Grandeur and Noire.
> I'm NOT a pianist and I feel that small pianos, like uprights, are very reviling, so if you're not a pianist that can make any piano sound amazing (like moi) it shows fast.
> Since AKs is a C3, I played with it a little when I got komplete, but it collected binary dust since.
> Coming into this thread, between the Grandeur and Noire I prefer the former, since Noire has this auto low pass filter that you can't disable and this makes it muffled at very low velocities and in general - with the filter opening and closing constantly - it makes the piano sound like it has an auto wah as insert effect.
> ...


Thanks for your feedback! Much appreciated.


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## bozmillar (Oct 6, 2020)

Interesting. It seems I may be the only person who doesn't love The Grandeur. It just feels too polished to me. Every time I play it, I feel like I'm playing the built in piano on my casio. 

For me, it works well as long as the piano is not the focus. It works well for cutting through a mix, but if I want the piano exposed, it's almost never the piano I go for.


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## BDReflet (Oct 6, 2020)

bozmillar said:


> Interesting. It seems I may be the only person who doesn't love The Grandeur. It just feels too polished to me. Every time I play it, I feel like I'm playing the built in piano on my casio.
> 
> For me, it works well as long as the piano is not the focus. It works well for cutting through a mix, but if I want the piano exposed, it's almost never the piano I go for.


Thanks for your feedback. Do you think it lacks a more organic or "human" sound? Does it seem to perfect to your ears?


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## Reid Rosefelt (Oct 6, 2020)

Patrick Doyle told me he used The Grandeur to mock up his music for Kenneth Branagh's film "All is True." And that soundtrack is largely solo piano or piano and strings.


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## BDReflet (Oct 6, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> Patrick Doyle told me he used The Grandeur to mock up his music for Kenneth Branagh's film "All is True." And that soundtrack is largely solo piano or piano and strings.


That's cool! So was it used in the final soundtrack or just in his mockups?


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## bozmillar (Oct 6, 2020)

BDReflet said:


> Do you think it lacks a more organic or "human" sound? Does it seem to perfect to your ears?



It's hard to describe what I don't like about it. I'm not sure I'd describe it as too perfect because I love playing a well tuned piano. It's like it lacks resonance or something. Like all the keys feel like they are separate samples being played together rather than blending together. I know that description kind of sucks, and I'm not trying to convince anybody that it's not good.

I just see people praise it, and every once in a while I open it back up to see if I was missing something and every time I think "yep, that's exactly the sound I remember, and I don't like it."


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## FinGael (Oct 6, 2020)

Grandeur is my most used piano as well.

It may be a sort of Toyota of VI Pianos; neutral, not that characteristic or the most realistic - and maybe boring for many tastes, but it is reliable and works well in many different situations. I have grown to like and respect it a lot.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Oct 6, 2020)

BDReflet said:


> That's cool! So was it used in the final soundtrack or just in his mockups?


Just the mockups. He used The Grandeur and some Spitfire strings to get it approved by Branagh. They've been working together a long time, so it's pretty relaxed. There's also a song he wrote for the end credits (with lyrics from "Cymbeline") that Doyle's daughter sang into her phone.

But then Doyle performed the entire thing on a real piano and conducted the strings. He made a point that the piano was recorded very softly. There are also a few things like lutes, virginals, sackbuts, etc in the soundtrack, but not a lot, as he didn't want to do anything too on the nose "Elizabethan" for a film about the last days of Shakespeare.

I admit I was kind of surprised that with him having the ability to use any piano available, he would choose The Grandeur.


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## BDReflet (Oct 6, 2020)

bozmillar said:


> It's hard to describe what I don't like about it. I'm not sure I'd describe it as too perfect because I love playing a well tuned piano. It's like it lacks resonance or something. Like all the keys feel like they are separate samples being played together rather than blending together. I know that description kind of sucks, and I'm not trying to convince anybody that it's not good.
> 
> I just see people praise it, and every once in a while I open it back up to see if I was missing something and every time I think "yep, that's exactly the sound I remember, and I don't like it."


I gotcha


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## BDReflet (Oct 6, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> Just the mockups. He used The Grandeur and some Spitfire strings to get it approved by Branagh. They've been working together a long time, so it's pretty relaxed. There's also a song he wrote for the end credits (with lyrics from "Cymbeline") that Doyle's daughter sang into her phone.
> 
> But then Doyle performed the entire thing on a real piano and conducted the strings. He made a point that the piano was recorded very softly. There are also a few things like lutes, virginals, sackbuts, etc in the soundtrack, but not a lot, as he didn't want to do anything too on the nose "Elizabethan" for a film about the last days of Shakespeare.
> 
> I admit I was kind of surprised that with him having the ability to use any piano available, he would choose The Grandeur.


That's cool! I actually just got "All Is True" from the library last weekend. I haven't watched it yet but I will pay close attention to the score.


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## filipjonathan (Oct 6, 2020)

I, personally, don't find the Grandeur to be that full, rounded in the low end. I used to use it when it was my only dedicated piano library but ever since getting Alicia's Keyes a few years ago, the latter has been my absolute go-to for all piano needs.


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## BDReflet (Oct 6, 2020)

filipjonathan said:


> I, personally, don't find the Grandeur to be that full, rounded in the low end. I used to use it when it was my only dedicated piano library but ever since getting Alicia's Keyes a few years ago, the latter has been my absolute go-to for all piano needs.


Thanks for your feedback!


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## Alex C (Oct 6, 2020)

bozmillar said:


> It's like it lacks resonance or something. Like all the keys feel like they are separate samples being played together rather than blending together. I know that description kind of sucks, and I'm not trying to convince anybody that it's not good.



Is there a sampled piano that doesn't sound like that?


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## SupremeFist (Oct 6, 2020)

bozmillar said:


> It's hard to describe what I don't like about it. I'm not sure I'd describe it as too perfect because I love playing a well tuned piano. It's like it lacks resonance or something. Like all the keys feel like they are separate samples being played together rather than blending together. I know that description kind of sucks, and I'm not trying to convince anybody that it's not good.
> 
> I just see people praise it, and every once in a while I open it back up to see if I was missing something and every time I think "yep, that's exactly the sound I remember, and I don't like it."


Yep, for me the Grandeur could be fine in a mix I guess but it's horrible and plasticky if you have to listen to it on its own.


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## BDReflet (Oct 6, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Yep, for me the Grandeur could be fine in a mix I guess but it's horrible and plasticky if you have to listen to it on its own.


What would your piano recommendation be?


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## SupremeFist (Oct 6, 2020)

Alex C said:


> Is there a sampled piano that doesn't sound like that?


CinePiano, Piano In Blue, Embertone Walker, Simple Sam Signature Grand (just speaking of Steinway Ds).


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## SupremeFist (Oct 6, 2020)

BDReflet said:


> What would your piano recommendation be?


See my previous post.


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## Neutron Star (Oct 6, 2020)

Alex C said:


> You may like the sound more but Alicia's Keys is so much more flawed and limited when it comes to being a good piano.


Definitely. It's got midrange phasing issues, the note velocities are all over the place and very limited, It also has a mid bass frequency bump. It has character because of all this, but technically, it's very poor and of limited use.


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## BDReflet (Oct 6, 2020)

Neutron Star said:


> Definitely. It's got midrange phasing issues, the note velocities are all over the place and very limited, It also has a mid bass frequency bump. It has character because of all this, but technically, it's very poor and of limited use.


Interesting. Good to know.


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## filipjonathan (Oct 6, 2020)

Neutron Star said:


> Definitely. It's got midrange phasing issues, the note velocities are all over the place and very limited, It also has a mid bass frequency bump. It has character because of all this, but technically, it's very poor and of limited use.


I love it. Never had any issues with it or its sound.


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## Neutron Star (Oct 6, 2020)

filipjonathan said:


> I love it. Never had any issues with it or its sound.


It is what it is.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Oct 6, 2020)

I always feel that discussions of pianos eventually get sidetracked into apples vs oranges.

Most sampled pianos are Steinway Model Ds But there are also some Model Bs, and there are models like M and C and O if you want to seek them out.

Or maybe you like the sound of a Yamaha C7 or CX. Alicia's Keys is a Yamaha C3 Neo.

Malmsjo. Fazioli. Bosendorfer. Bluthner. These all sound different. Art Vista's Malmsjo is one of my favorite virtual instruments of any kind. But I wouldn't call it my go-to piano. It's my go-to when I want the sound of a Malmsjo. 

To me it only makes sense to compare different virtual instruments of the same piano. Or instruments that give off the kind of sound we're searching for.

Do we pick our "go-to guitar" out of a Strat or a Les Paul or Tele or an SG or a Danelectro or a Rick or PRS or a Hellraiser? A pretty personal decision. 

I say pick the sound you like for a piece of music and go with the best you can find.

That said, I can't find any place where Galaxy or NI says exactly what piano the Grandeur is. Galaxy already has a Vintage D.

Personally I generally start with Keyscape first and The Grandeur second.


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## Alex C (Oct 6, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> CinePiano, Piano In Blue, Embertone Walker, Simple Sam Signature Grand (just speaking of Steinway Ds).



I asked to see whether it's not all subjective and this answer confirms it. I have more issues with the libraries you mentioned than with Grandeur or Noire. Some have a good tone but Cinesamples have very limited vel. layers and no piano resonance to speak of. So no, I don't think these pianos resonate more. Embertone Walker I have deleted because I found the piano a bit too old and therefore uneven in tone and almost painfully harsh when played forte. I did like Walker much better with the una corda pedal down but overall it's not enough to warrant the enormous size it occupied on my hard disk. Simple Sam, even though it has sampled resonance, doesn't resonate at all when the sustain pedal is down and this might be the reason why it too has to go. However, I do like it for its roomy sound and release notes. Also, it's softer velocity range is limited (as in not enough soft vel. layers), something Simple Sam acknowledges. 

Like I said, it's all subjective and I'm pretty sure you'll hate Ravenscroft 275 (side perspective, not the close mic) as it's one of my favorites.  Yes, I like very tonally even, perfect new pianos, not so much the ones with so-called 'character'.


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## Hendrixon (Oct 6, 2020)

Neutron Star said:


> Definitely. It's got midrange phasing issues, the note velocities are all over the place and very limited, It also has a mid bass frequency bump. It has character because of all this, but technically, it's very poor and of limited use.



It's got midrange phasing issues:
Could be, I haven't noticed playing it today. will look for this.

the note velocities are all over the place:
I think I bumped into 1 or 2, but you get that in +$200 pianos as well.
Not that I think its acceptable, but until (or if?) a developer fixes something like that, the question is how obtrusive is it?
Sometimes you can remedy stuff like that by yourself, especially with pianos its easy.

and very limited:
What is?

It also has a mid bass frequency bump:
Really? That's what EQs are for.
These days with dynamic eq you can even do stuff with expanding and compressing that the developer didn't think of.

It has character because of all this:
No, it has character because it has character.
My real 62' strat (sadly sold years ago) did have age flaws which gave it more character  

but technically, it's very poor:
I'm scratching my head cause I really didn't get this experience...

and of limited use:
After all that? I accept that for you it has limited use.






I wonder, do you have a private vendetta against someone in galaxy?
Did someone there steal your girlfriend or slept with your wife?
Cause honestly, flaws and all, its still a nice little piano library but you made it sound like its a mutation of covid-19

* all in good spirit


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## SupremeFist (Oct 6, 2020)

Alex C said:


> I asked to see whether it's not all subjective and this answer confirms it. I have more issues with the libraries you mentioned than with Grandeur or Noire. Some have a good tone but Cinesamples have very limited vel. layers and no piano resonance to speak of. So no, I don't think these pianos resonate more. Embertone Walker I have deleted because I found the piano a bit too old and therefore uneven in tone and almost painfully harsh when played forte. I did like Walker much better with the una corda pedal down but overall it's not enough to warrant the enormous size it occupied on my hard disk. Simple Sam, even though it has sampled resonance, doesn't resonate at all when the sustain pedal is down and this might be the reason why it too has to go. However, I do like it for its roomy sound and release notes. Also, it's softer velocity range is limited (as in not enough soft vel. layers), something Simple Sam acknowledges.
> 
> Like I said, it's all subjective and I'm pretty sure you'll hate Ravenscroft 275 (side perspective, not the close mic) as it's one of my favorites.  Yes, I like very tonally even, perfect new pianos, not so much the ones with so-called 'character'.


I think the Ravenscroft is great but yeah it's not to my taste.  Though if you say CinePiano and Piano In Blue have "no resonance" then we do not mean the same thing by that word... (I think Noire is far superior to the Grandeur btw.)


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## Hendrixon (Oct 6, 2020)

Alex C said:


> I asked to see whether it's not all subjective and this answer confirms it. I have more issues with the libraries you mentioned than with Grandeur or Noire. Some have a good tone but Cinesamples have very limited vel. layers and no piano resonance to speak of. So no, I don't think these pianos resonate more. Embertone Walker I have deleted because I found the piano a bit too old and therefore uneven in tone and almost painfully harsh when played forte. I did like Walker much better with the una corda pedal down but overall it's not enough to warrant the enormous size it occupied on my hard disk. Simple Sam, even though it has sampled resonance, doesn't resonate at all when the sustain pedal is down and this might be the reason why it too has to go. However, I do like it for its roomy sound and release notes. Also, it's softer velocity range is limited (as in not enough soft vel. layers), something Simple Sam acknowledges.
> 
> Like I said, it's all subjective and I'm pretty sure you'll hate Ravenscroft 275 (side perspective, not the close mic) as it's one of my favorites.  Yes, I like very tonally even, perfect new pianos, not so much the ones with so-called 'character'.



I never played the 275.
Did you try the hammersmith?
It has ton of resonance and a full set of sustain pedal samples.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Oct 6, 2020)

I don't see much touting of Noire recently. It was the only thing that really interested me in the Komplete 13 upgrade, but I just got CinePiano which is beautiful and Simple Sam Signature is also very enticing for just $50 (and incredible sounding presets).

I love Alicia's Keys as well - need to use it more.


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## BDReflet (Oct 6, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> I always feel that discussions of pianos eventually get sidetracked into apples vs oranges.
> 
> Most sampled pianos are Steinway Model Ds But there are also some Model Bs, and there are models like M and C and O if you want to seek them out.
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## Mike Fox (Oct 6, 2020)

DS_Joost said:


> The Grandeur is a very good piano. I do find it very neutral. Too neutral. Meaning, you can't go wrong with it in a mix, buuuuuuuuut...
> 
> the very best piano in Komplete, one that is constantly overlooked but is really, really good, is Alicia's Keys. This thing is my go-to every single time. I tried to replace it but I just can't. I always return to it. It fits every single situation, and every mix I do. And yet still, it's got plenty of character.
> 
> I don't know what they did with that thing, but it's just perfect. Like they put magic sauce on the keys before recording. The velocity response, the tone of the higher keys (no pling!), the controlled bass in the lower regions... I just can't find any fault with it.


Didn’t she even use it on one of her albums?


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## FC Rolls (Oct 6, 2020)

BDReflet said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> I've recently heard a lot of good things about Native Instruments THE GRANDEUR piano. How would you compare it to your favorite piano vst or would you consider it one of your favorites? What are some of its pros and cons?





BDReflet said:


> Awesome! Thanks for the feedback!


I.m nowhere near as good as most of the people here.
That being said.
I used to put an EZ mix mastering plugin on the Grandeur track.
I had the 2 mastering additions + the one that comes with it.
So a low cpu plugin on the track might help.
Now I use Simple Sam's Signature Grand a lot.


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## Neutron Star (Oct 7, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> It's got midrange phasing issues:
> Could be, I haven't noticed playing it today. will look for this.
> 
> the note velocities are all over the place:
> ...


Well I own it so I have an opinion about it. I have 2 galaxy instruments and Alicia keys is not one of them as they did not make it. My comments were with regard to Alicia keys in my original posting.


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## Brasart (Oct 7, 2020)

Another vote for Alicia Keys' piano, it's quite versatile and fits well into any mix, love its sound 
I also don't really use a default piano, I switch them quite often


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## Wunderhorn (Oct 7, 2020)

I definitely like the Grandeur a lot, it cuts well through dense orchestrations. I noticed that the low end at times have to be tamed. It can also cause those incredibly hurtful noise spikes in Logic from the sample build-up. Something that NI and/or Apple should address as it could lead to potential injury.

I also wish they would add an extra articulation for staccatos like the Embertone has.

Generally this discussion should alwaus keep the context in mind in which you are envisioning to use the piano with. Often you'd choose a different one for exposed or solo passages as opposed to something that sits in a dense mix of other things.


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## ptram (Oct 7, 2020)

BDReflet said:


> What are some of the big differences you would compare with the Grandeur and VSL Concert D Steinway?


I only have the Lite version of the VSL Steinway, but the Standard version of the Bösendorfer Imperial, made by following the same guidelines.

The Grandeur is very even, as characterless as possible. The VSL pianos have character. While The Grandeur is an Hamburg Steinway, it could be any piano, since it has been levigated so that it is now the ideal grand piano.

The VSL pianos are accurate, but don't hide any idiosyncrasy of the original instruments. This may make them a bit more difficult to immediately place and use, but they are also much more real.

The more dynamic levels of the VSL pianos are evident in the resulting smoothness. Recording is made so that you get a lot of ambience and localization of the instrument in the space, while The Grandeur is a studio piano.

The Grandeur is immediate, light on resources; the VSL pianos are heavy and require more care in the mix. The car analogy fits very well.

Paolo


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## BDReflet (Oct 7, 2020)

ptram said:


> I only have the Lite version of the VSL Steinway, but the Standard version of the Bösendorfer Imperial, made by following the same guidelines.
> 
> The Grandeur is very even, as characterless as possible. The VSL pianos have character. While The Grandeur is an Hamburg Steinway, it could be any piano, since it has been levigated so that it is now the ideal grand piano.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your feedback. This is helpful. Do the VSL pianos bog down the CPU much?


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## Hendrixon (Oct 7, 2020)

Neutron Star said:


> Well I own it so I have an opinion about it. I have 2 galaxy instruments and Alicia keys is not one of them as they did not make it. My comments were with regard to Alicia keys in my original posting.



I guess I just assumed since its an NI piano that it was made by galaxy.
Anyway, sure we all have opinions and they are all valid  
I sometimes too scratch my head over stuff that ppl think is amazing and I'm like "really? that??"


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## ptram (Oct 7, 2020)

BDReflet said:


> Do the VSL pianos bog down the CPU much?



In my 12-core Mac Pro 2013, the SynBI with four stereo channels on, playing a dense sequence for piano solo, takes about 25-35% of a thread and (sometimes) up to 25% of another thread in Logic Pro X 10.4.8.

In the same sequence, The Grandeur takes a negligible amount of a thread (maybe a 2%?) and sometimes makes other two thread blink. Curiously, it also uses the last thread, while VSL only uses the first two.

In both cases, in Logic a dummy audio track is selected during playback.

Paolo


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## BDReflet (Oct 7, 2020)

ptram said:


> In my 12-core Mac Pro 2013, the SynBI with four stereo channels on, playing a dense sequence for piano solo, takes about 25-35% of a thread and (sometimes) up to 25% of another thread in Logic Pro X 10.4.8.
> 
> In the same sequence, The Grandeur takes a negligible amount of a thread (maybe a 2%?) and sometimes makes other two thread blink. Curiously, it also uses the last thread, while VSL only uses the first two.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that info.


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## Scalms (Oct 7, 2020)

How is Grandeur for the low-end? I'm looking for a piano library that is powerful in the low-end but has nice clarity, and I thought Grandeur offered this perhaps?


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## Tim_Wells (Oct 7, 2020)

Scalms said:


> How is Grandeur for the low-end? I'm looking for a piano library that is powerful in the low-end but has nice clarity, and I thought Grandeur offered this perhaps?


I'm no piano expert, but the low-end is what I like best about Grandeur. I've found with other piano libraries that the low end gets muddy and choppy, and the clarity gets lost. Grandeur is more consistent up and down the keyboard.


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## FlyingAndi (May 16, 2021)

I was playing on the Grandeur today and then noticed a rather ugly sound.
It's on the release samples of the C1 at higher velocities. Probably some kind of resonance but it's not even in the frequency of the C1. It seems to be a bit higher. So it sounds more like a vacuum cleaner next door.
Did anybody else notice that?
Now, I can't unhear it anymore 😟


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## Paulogic (May 17, 2021)

Did you try with another piano vst? I don't seem to hear what you mean, but could be my ears,
of course. 
I use the grandeur for sketching and just playing, for recording I like it a lot but do copy the
same midi to a track with Alecia key's. That piano does sound great too and can be very smooth
in the mix.


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## FlyingAndi (May 17, 2021)

Here's what I mean. Listen what happens after the last note on the right channel at about 240Hz.
This is with Sustain Pedal up and no reverb.
It only happens with Grandeur. I pretty sure it's in the release samples, because it goes away if I turn off the release samples.


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## CGR (May 17, 2021)

FlyingAndi said:


> Here's what I mean. Listen what happens after the last note on the right channel at about 240Hz.
> This is with Sustain Pedal up and no reverb.
> It only happens with Grandeur. I pretty sure it's in the release samples, because it goes away if I turn off the release samples.


Sounds like the bass damper felts of the piano they sampled weren't as tightly seated onto the strings as some grand pianos. I've heard more obvious examples of that on real and sampled pianos. I do remember the occasional unnatural build-up of bass resonances in the Grandeur when pedalling though - think it was the resonance samples being blended with the pedal up samples.


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## keepitsimple (May 17, 2021)

FlyingAndi said:


> Here's what I mean. Listen what happens after the last note on the right channel at about 240Hz.
> This is with Sustain Pedal up and no reverb.
> It only happens with Grandeur. I pretty sure it's in the release samples, because it goes away if I turn off the release samples.


It's the release samples. I love it. I look for it in every sampled piano, it's part of my evaluation. Ravenscroft, NOIRE, all VSL pianos, Acousticsamples C7, Garritan CFX....all have it in spades. I call it the bark


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## Paulogic (May 17, 2021)

Yep, now I did hear it. On my AKG 240, I didn't hear what you meant. On my speakers I could
hear it quite goed. Seems indeed to be original and doesn't sound wrong in my ears.
And now you guy's made me very curious... Will try everywhere I see of can hear a piano.
End of the week I go to a customer (known Belgian director, componist), who has a reaaaaaally nice Grand in his "studio" which he uses all the time. I'll ask him about this and see if he can play some low notes to compare. I'm just curious what he hears and thinks about this.
If enough spare time this week, I'll try to record some notes of different VST piano's, including Grandeur and put them on a thumbdrive to hear his opinion. Always nice to hear different impressions.


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## FlyingAndi (May 18, 2021)

keepitsimple said:


> It's the release samples. I love it. I look for it in every sampled piano, it's part of my evaluation. Ravenscroft, NOIRE, all VSL pianos, Acousticsamples C7, Garritan CFX....all have it in spades. I call it the bark


I love release samples, too. But I'm not talking about the ordinary release sound, that you have after every note of my example, that light kind of buzzing.
I'm talking about the sound that comes after the last C from seconds 3 to 5. CGRs explanation makes sense to me. It could be that the string wasn't completely dampend. Probably some kind of resulting harmonic, which would be OK if it wasn't that long.


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## keepitsimple (May 18, 2021)

FlyingAndi said:


> I love release samples, too. But I'm not talking about the ordinary release sound, that you have after every note of my example, that light kind of buzzing.
> I'm talking about the sound that comes after the last C from seconds 3 to 5. CGRs explanation makes sense to me. It could be that the string wasn't completely dampend. Probably some kind of resulting harmonic, which would be OK if it wasn't that long.


I'm talking about the low C too. That's still the release samples. It's just more obvious in the bass hence the strings are longer and thicker and therefore resonate in the soundboard's body more. Every piano i mentioned above does that.


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## FlyingAndi (May 18, 2021)

keepitsimple said:


> Every piano i mentioned above does that.


I'm sorry if I'm starting to annoy anybody, but Noire doesn't do that (I don't have the other pianos mentioned):




Same Midi played through Noire and Grandeur, Waveform zoomed heavily (so it looks like it's clipping). The blue line is where the audible part of the normal release samples ends, it's more or less the same for noire and grandeurs left channel (even a bit louder on noire, but that could just be the release sample volume of that patch - basic pure). The red circle shows an additional tail on the right channel of the Grandeurs C1 which is almost twice as long as the normal release samples.


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## Bman70 (May 18, 2021)

I agree with Keepitsimple, I like the harmonic overtones in the sample given. "Bark" is a great term for it!  Not sure if I'm listening for the right thing. To me that sounds like the acoustic pianos I've played... in my mind it's a bunch of complex sympathetic resonances happening in the strings around the string being struck.

I have no idea if that's correct, just my assumption, but it is part of what makes a piano great: The whole thing is shaking and vibrating, from wood to hinges to adjacent strings, making all sorts of mysterious vibrations to form the rich bouquet of the sound. 

Those samples do sound like quite high velocity notes... I would expect less 'chaotic' resonances at lower velocities, but haven't been at a Steinway in a while.


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## keepitsimple (May 18, 2021)

FlyingAndi said:


> I'm sorry if I'm starting to annoy anybody, but Noire doesn't do that (I don't have the other pianos mentioned):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're not annoying me (speaking for myself), i'm just trying to help and tell you it's a feature in most pianos. Now when you say "same midi played", does that mean you played it on the Grandeur and used the same midi on NOIRE? It doesn't work like that, you have to play NOIRE and play Grandeur separately and have each one with its respective waveform. 

It's there in NOIRE. The default patch in NOIRE is low in volume to me. I always raise Kontakt volume to 0 when using NOIRE. That still doesn't change the fact that it's there  

Here's a quick test i did for you. Loaded the default NOIRE patch (Default Pure). Left Kontakt volume to -6 and played. Then i normalized the audio.




View attachment NOIRE Release Samples.mp4


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