# External DAW controllers - who likes 'em?



## noiseboyuk (Nov 17, 2010)

Flicking through this month's Sound On Sound, I saw a flurry of new mixers / DAW controllers, all with an obligatory huge panel with transport control, shuttle wheel etc. Now, I'm old enough to remember working with tape, and the importance of a great shuttle wheel. But now? Personally, I don't want them at all. It's spacebar, shortcuts and mouse all the way.... to me it's just quicker. Consequently I resent both the real estate and wasted cost of the controller section.

Am I alone? Do you all still use a transport section? I'd love more small controllers like the Euphonix MC Mix (though personally I've had a lot of reliability issues with that, and Mac-only is a major pain).


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## Blackster (Nov 17, 2010)

I'm using the Alesis Mastercontrol. Before that I used to handle everything with keyboard and mouse only which I do very often even now. 

So I guess it's a matter of your workflow. I'm happy with all the features an external controller gives me (transport panel, buttons for mute, solo, pan, etc.) but the only thing I'm really using all the time are the motorized faders. I would never go back and automate things like volume via mouse again, that turned out to be horrible for me. 

So that would be reason enough to get a new external controller if my current one breaks some day  ... but besides that ... I'm just using it as an external audio interface.


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## wst3 (Nov 17, 2010)

I would very much like a control surface for my DAW! I keep playing with them, and in some cases the integration is better than others, and in some cases the implementation is better than others.

As of today, it seems like one still needs multiple boxes, and I'm trying to get away from that.

For most of my recording tasks all I need is my faithful, wireless, Frontier Designs Tranzport. I have the record and stop buttons right there where I need them. It's about as close to perfect a solution as I can imagine.

For recording from keyboards using software instruments, I need a LOT more. I want one knob/button per function on the synthesizer, and I want the control surface to re-configure itself depending on which software synth has focus. And I'd like to be able to shift focus without resorting to keyboard and mouse. This is probably my top wish. Novation is close with their ZeroSL, but Automap creates a real mess with all those wrappers - I suppose if I got them right once I'd be all set, but that effort has been enough to slow my purchasing urge. Cakewalk took a stab at this with their ACT stuff, and it is also close, but still not there.

Mixing is a similar situation, one knob per function for which every processor or effect is in focus, and assignable moving faders, or at least VCA style faders that work as well as JLCooper's MAGI worked. Of all things, the Peavey Studiomix is really close (doesn't hurt that it's already in my studio<G>.)

I have been looking at the Euphonix controllers, and if they can get them integrated into the Windows/Sonar realm I might just make the switch. But if I am going to end up with multiple boxes (cool looking though they are<G>) I might also just wait for Automap or ACT to jump to the next level and get something like the ZeroSL.

As far as the shuttle/job wheel goes, I use it, but I imagine I wouldn't miss it if it disappeared - at least on the Tranzport I can do everything I need with the standard transport controls. And those I would always want.


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## Mike Greene (Nov 17, 2010)

Faders are all I really need. Record arm buttons, as well as mute and solo buttons, for each track are nice, too. That's about it. I rarely use the pan knob. I never use the transport.


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## adg21 (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm using a Mackie Control and I love it. Works flawlessly with cubase and generally makes the experience of making and mixing music more fun, already said volumes and panning can make things faster. whatever you get just make sure you get flying faders


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## IFM (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm selling my Mackie Control...the iPad does what I need now.


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## whinecellar (Nov 23, 2010)

Dragonwind @ Tue Nov 23 said:


> I'm selling my Mackie Control...the iPad does what I need now.



+1. I've got my iPad doing things I only dreamed about in recent years. Best $500 I've spent in a LONG time, and it's quickly become as crucial as my keyboard & mouse.


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## adg21 (Nov 23, 2010)

what's the cool stuff you can do with the ipad? *interested*


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## whinecellar (Nov 23, 2010)

adg21 @ Tue Nov 23 said:


> what's the cool stuff you can do with the ipad? *interested*



Well for starters, I'm developing a bunch of custom controllers & articulation switchers for most of the major sample libraries. Also working on custom stuff for Logic beyond what they provide with TouchOSC... very cool stuff that's totally streamlining my workflow.

I'll keep you posted!


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## gsilbers (Nov 23, 2010)

yep, u should check out jims custom touchOSC pix on the ipad thread. sweet indeed. 

i have right now the euphonix mc mix for audio and the u control for midi. 

with the ipad i could replace both. 
im still a bit reluctant to the non "touch" feel fader and drag my fingers instead thing.. 
im so used to faders. 

also , i belive there is no DAW feedback on the faders right? so that might be an issue. 

also the ipad has apps like synths.. like the new korg stuff and rebirth.


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## whinecellar (Nov 24, 2010)

gsilbers @ Wed Nov 24 said:


> im still a bit reluctant to the non "touch" feel fader and drag my fingers instead thing..
> im so used to faders.



That's definitely a factor - I'm keeping a Frontier Alphatrack around just to do automation rides, although the iPad works fine. Doesn't feel as good though 

And yes, you can set up fader/visual feedback (the included Logic template has it and it works well).

Cheers!


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## charlieclouser (Nov 26, 2010)

I've had the following:

- Euphonix MC Control and 2x MC Mix - Ultra-janky and cheap feeling. Eucon caused 1sec delay when deleting each empty track in Logic as well as many other probs. Bad off-axis viewing and tiny fonts on MC Control screen. Itsy-bitsy knobs. It never remembered stored setups, spent way too much time configuring it each boot up. Tiny round transport buttons all identically shaped, barely labelled and mostly useless. Mute and solo are sticky rubber and next to each other, not hard plastic and stacked vertically as they should be. The only cool thing was I used the four MC Control faders as stem masters so I could quickly mute stems. Lasted about a week with this setup. They are sitting in the corner waiting for their value to decrease to zero so I can throw them away without feeling guilty.

- Digidesign ProControl 32 fader setup - extreme boat anchor. Back in the days when I used PT as anything but a stem recorder it was fancy but pricey. Long gone.

- Digidesign Control24 - way too big and clunky but the angle made for decent ergo. Also long gone.

- Frontier Alphatrack - was actually one of the best solutions but display gave out after a month and I never got another. Mounted it to the left of my 88key. One of the best EQ editing setups I've had. Actually remembered what page you had been on when you went back to it. A nice solution to replicate the single fader in the left of Logic's arrange window in hardware. Might get another one. Cheap and cheerful.

- JL Cooper Fadermasters (yes I've been trying to solve this problem for a long time) - prehistoric.

- Mackie Control (Logic Control) with many extra fader packs and C4 knobby boxes - ding ding ding, winner! Not to say I still use them (I don't) but they were the only ones worth a crap for use with Logic. I must have had four or five Controls, half a dozen faderpacks, and three or four C4s over the years. The faders are narrow enough to fit 32 faders in front of you, but the huge vertical space occupied by the mute/solo/select buttons and the outdated six-character-per-strip displays seem outdated nowadays. C4 has many awesome features if you use it with Logic (jump to markers by pressing C4 V-pots, knob for waveform zoom, select tool by pressing V-pots, etc.) I will probably buy another 32-fader set of the new silver ones when I can find all three components in stock somewhere. Currently have very large pile of brown ones in the spare room.

Have eval unit of SSL Nucleus on the way but I don't have much hope for it. All of its audio and monitoring functions are superfluous to me (I use TC Air speaker setup with 5.1 digital input), but the form factor looks okay and build quality will probably be good... but I have doubts about how quickly it will respond with Logic.

The downfall of all of them except the Mackie setup has been the lag time induced by non-native support from within Logic. Response with the Mackie setup is instantaneous and config time is zero, since support is built-in at the app level, with no 3rd party drivers or EuCon or anything like that. Mackie had first solution and it's still the best aside from the above-mentioned clunkiness and size... if you're using Logic anyway.


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## Guru007 (Nov 26, 2010)

Anyone ever try the Euphonix MC Pro (not the Artist series)? 
I demoed it all-too briefly and it's on my wish list ever since. For my workflow (tons more sound design and tweaking than straightforward MIDI editing) and ergonomics (it focuses the workspace on keyboard/trackball work) it's ideal. And I loved that I could plug it into a larger Euphonix console someday (one can dream...).
Anyone actually use one on a project?


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## Walra48 (Nov 26, 2010)

> That's definitely a factor - I'm keeping a Frontier Alphatrack around just to do automation rides, although the iPad works fine. Doesn't feel as good though



I use a Presonus Faderport with Cubase for that tactile feeling - no lags - no weirdness. Simple and rock solid. To the left of the Fatar SL-880. Looking into getting an iPad though.


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## rgames (Nov 26, 2010)

I've spent a lot of money on a lot of studio gear but the Frontier Design Tanzport is still in the top few of my all-time best list. I use the thing constantly, and I've had it for many years now (six?).

It's wireless and compact so you can set it pretty much anywhere - I set it on my Yamaha S90ES when recording from the keyboard and on a music stand when recording anything else via mic.

I also have the Alphatrack and it's a great piece of gear but I use it less frequently than the Tranzport. Best bet is to get both 

rgames


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## Tanuj Tiku (Nov 26, 2010)

I know this is quite expensive (well not really for what you are getting).


These kind of technologies are quite good for people who work a lot with samples. This is both an analogue board plus a DAW controller complete with summing and things like parallel compression on the Master Bus. 

Plus its from Audient - one of the best quality gear you can get!


Check it out: http://www.audient.com/audient/asp2802


Best,

Tanuj.


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## charlieclouser (Nov 27, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Sat Nov 27 said:


> So charlieclouser - what do you actually require your controller to do, in an ideal world? What's the fantasy product?



I'd like to see a Mackie Control series II - same narrow fader width but MUCH more compact vertically, same native MCU protocol for lag-free operation with Logic, but more characters per strip in the displays.... the smaller and simpler the better.

Tried MCPro but it had same EuCon issues as the little guys. Lag-o-riffic. Decent form factor though. Kind of why I'm investigating the Nucleus... it's small and simple. Probably needs some janky driver though...

Took one of my CPUs with a big sequence in it over to Euphonix's demo room and tried it out on the big Series 5 MC, but it had the same EuCon issues. Plus the thing was just too gigantic... reaching across fader buckets looking for a knob that I could see on the screen and adjust with the mouse in a fraction of the time... I was much faster on just the trackball (on Kensington the scroll ring usually turns whatever screen-knob was last touched, which is enough for me if I absolutely must spin something). Besides it only had room in the center bucket for one 30-inch monitor, and no custom casework is available except on the big silver Series 5.

I keep thinking someone will come out with something like a big "fat channel", kind of like the center section on a D-Control or whatever the big DigiDesign console is (but without the mushroom knobs). A full set of knobs for comp + eq, maybe a knob panel that looks like an analog synth voice, a single 8-fader "stem/group masters bank", and maybe a generic 16 or 32 knob panel, all right in front of me, with slim fader buckets with mute/solo/meter/scribble off to each side. Sort of like what the System 5 MC was trying to be, but without all the knobs in the fader buckets. Back when I used Reason, I wished that someone would make a 1-to-1 hardware rack with real-world replicas of each of the Reason devices. Glad nobody did, as I would have bought it and now it would be sitting unloved in the spare room....

I tried cobbling together something like this with C4s, plasticy Novation junk, even using a Virus TI in remote mode as a synth-style editor... but it was all way too janky, unlabelled, fiddly and forgetful. Setting that junk up is not fun for me. I seem to have more fun with less stuff in front of me; all the clutter of knobs and stuff is distracting. Plus, once Logic put in keycommands for next/prev plugin preset, I just made a few presets and can flick to them really quickly, then adjust one or two knobs and I'm done. Even though I have a UAD2quad with all plugs, I still use good ole Logic eq and Logic comp because I can't be bothered to go digging for the UAD plugs in the menu.

That little Audient thing looks nifty though. Don't need analog anything, so it's a little overkill, but the build quality looks nice.

As to iPads, I jumped right in with TouchOSC and AC7 but quickly found the problem with "glass mixers" - you MUST be looking right at it to use it! If your finger should drift a little to the left or right on TouchOSC, you're now adjusting the wrong fader! Fatal flaw. I can play guitar, drums, keyboards, or a Mac keyboard with my eyes looking elsewhere, and I'm afraid that for me that's the whole point of hardware fader, knob, or transport control. Eyes-free touch.

Dedicated transport controls aren't that useful to me, as I have gotten quick at navigating using keycommands on Logic - jump by 1 or 8 bars and jump to next/prev marker are pretty much all I need and those aren't usually on hardware controllers (except Mackie which can put next/prev marker on the FF+RW keys). Besides, I type fast (can you tell?)... If you rely solely on keycommands then you can put Mac keyboards all over the room for $100 a pop. Navigate from the couch? Sure, easy. Will that be wired or wireless, sir? It's dead easy to use DVI splitters and USB hubs to just put more monitors and keyboards in the recording room or next to the guitar station... or just use remote desktop via WiFi from an iMac.

Plus over the years as various gadgets have been bought, broken, and then discontinued before they could be replaced, I've been moving toward relying on the most general purpose gear that I can and getting rid of specialized items and custom solutions. So much time invested, so much money spent... and all of my former "best idea ever" schemes for custom stands, big Logic environments, control templates, etc. have wound up in the trash as the years go by... and to be honest, spending time setting that junk up is just procrastination for me... setting up VEPro servers, AutoLoads, and control surface templates is a great way of avoiding actually working on music! When I actually have a gig on, I forget about all those gizmos and just need to fly... which is why I still suck the content I need out of Kontakt Romplers and convert it all to simple EXS instruments. If you rely on a complex setup then the smallest breakage will hold up the gig... even the freaking Frontier Alphatrack broke before I even made it through one project! These days I can buy most of the stuff I really need at an Apple store or a Best Buy. Much easier that way. I am, however, very afraid that Kensington will discontinue the classic "Expert Mouse" trackball so I buy a few every time I leave the house.... I've got a pile of 18 brand new in the box, which at a burn rate averaging one per year should outlast both the USB spec AND my career!


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## JJP (Nov 27, 2010)

I rely heavily on transport controls. I do a lot of transcribing and orchestrating. This means I often have two programs open. Usually that means Logic or ProTools with Finale. I'm using Logic or PT for playback and Finale for the actual notation.

I can have Finale as the front application filling the full screen and receiving commands from the qwerty and MIDI keyboards while using the transport controls to control playback in PT or Logic. I don't have to constantly switch applications. I can play, stop, rewind, or jump to a location in the recording or MIDI mockup without leaving Finale. This speeds my work considerably.

I also use X-keys with Quickeys for Finale macros and shortcuts, but am considering switching to an iPad for some added flexibility. However, the thought of the potential for the iPad becoming obsolete in a few years is making me hesitate.


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## synthetic (Nov 27, 2010)

Sad to hear that about the Euphonix MC Mix. That seemed like the ideal controller, I also like the form factor. But I was concerned when they were bought by Avid because they probably won't be updating the "universal" drivers and fixing Logic bugs anymore. (Though perhaps PT9 represents a cultural shift.) 

BTW the reason that there aren't a ton of fader controllers is that they don't sell. Honestly – I get the sales reports and they are all dismal. I guess people would rather spend $1000 on another microphone or plug-in suite than a fader controller.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 27, 2010)

Last two posts very interesting. JJP, I get that transport controls must be very useful in that situation.

Synthetic, sad to read about those sales figures. I do think that one reason for this is that the devices on the market are largely staggeringly overpriced, only the Behringer is in the right ballpark. I would have gone for that, but it's not touch sensitive. These things don't pass audio, so they should be very simple and cheap really.

I look at something like the Mackie Control and think "it's way too big, it's got a heap of stuff I don't want... why do I want to pay £800 for it?" The MC Mix is a grand for 8 faders. If it was staggeringly good that would be one thing, but it's reliability and mac-only support really put a terminal dent in it.

8 touch senstiive faders with a display, £200. Is it possible I wonder? And if it is, would it be the right product to break through to the masses?


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## gsilbers (Nov 27, 2010)

synthetic @ Sat Nov 27 said:


> Sad to hear that about the Euphonix MC Mix. That seemed like the ideal controller, I also like the form factor. But I was concerned when they were bought by Avid because they probably won't be updating the "universal" drivers and fixing Logic bugs anymore. (Though perhaps PT9 represents a cultural shift.)
> 
> BTW the reason that there aren't a ton of fader controllers is that they don't sell. Honestly – I get the sales reports and they are all dismal. I guess people would rather spend $1000 on another microphone or plug-in suite than a fader controller.



the mc mix is great for what its meant for. audio mixing is pretty sweet. i still dunno why cant there be a middle ground between it and the behringer-like controllers. 

one thing id love for the mc mix to do is to be able to switch or "flip" into midi controller mode. so i can go back and forth... or even have one fader as a track -hui like and the rest midi controller... (or whatever but easily assignable)
right now its a mess to try to anything else with these (all) controllers besides what its meant for , even if its in the manual its cumbersome to setup and implement. 
(specially the novation)


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## Animus (Nov 27, 2010)

I use a MC Control here and I love it. I don't noticed any of the lag that was mentioned but I use Nuendo so maybe it's a host thing.


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## Danny_Owen (Nov 28, 2010)

I have to say, I won't be even slightly tempted to buy one until I see a bank of automated faders with displays and _at least one EQ strip that looks like a hardware EQ_..! Seriously, why has no one done this yet?? (Certainly I haven't seen one yet for a reasonable price). 

Surely all you'd need is one EQ channel strip, which you could activate from the fader bank as to which one was channel in your DAW was selected?

I love the feel and simplicity of a hardware mixer, it speeds up the mixing process so much from my experience, so I don't know why no-one has thought to put one properly designed channel strip in a control surface. For flexibility you'd want a low pass, high pass, and probably 5 misc EQs each with appropriate Q, frequency and gain that could be compatible with any software EQs. It would also be good to get a couple of Aux/Bus/Send controls on there. That way you could just set up an EQ on every instrument in your DAW, set up the Auxs on every instrument, and then just use the hardware.

When I see a piece of kit like that maybe I'll invest. There's just no point before then, because inevitable I'd still be using the keyboard and mouse far more than I would like. For me, a bank of faders is no good without the ability to EQ them quickly and intuitively.

I'm really not bothered about being able to control a synth or a distortion effect or whatever from the hardware (I expect this is why controls tend to be more flexible than just being an EQ), though maybe a few extra controls for those who do like this kind of feature would be useful, for me though you still have to learn where the controls for each plug in are and this would be almost as time consuming as using the mouse and keyboard. But it's my feeling that there needs to be a dedicated EQ strip which is only ever EQ at all times.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 28, 2010)

It's great in theory Danny, but I think you've alluded to the problem. Wheras faders just work, you'd need to set up each EQ parameter by hand for each channel, as far as I can see. Which will very depending on DAW and plugin. And you'd need to make your soft mixer uniform to match.

Urgh. Nice idea in theory though.... if it worked out of the box (somehow!) I'd be on it like a shot.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 28, 2010)

dupe post


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## Danny_Owen (Nov 28, 2010)

Ah, I expect you're probably right. Still, a man can dream! Maybe one day in the non-too-distant future.

I think the person who gets it to work could become a pretty wealthy man/woman. Probably something more for the home-producer market than the composer market, but it's a feature that'd be hard to deny the benefit of if it just worked.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 28, 2010)

Danny_Owen @ Sun Nov 28 said:


> Ah, I expect you're probably right. Still, a man can dream! Maybe one day in the non-too-distant future.
> 
> I think the person who gets it to work could become a pretty wealthy man/woman. Probably something more for the home-producer market than the composer market, but it's a feature that'd be hard to deny the benefit of if it just worked.



Couldn't agree more there. I think it might need a new standard and set of protocols that would be widely adopted by both software and hardware. I know... dream on, eh?!!


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## Tanuj Tiku (Nov 28, 2010)

Dint you guys check out the Audient already? Its supposed to be quite good and I am getting one for myself most likely. It works both as an analogue summing mixer and a DAW controller.


You can control your plug ins, automate etc...Master section with Bus compressor, motorised faders - the works! All in for $5000 - hard to beat at this price.

Its a bit pricy but if you want a good Analogue board for summing, DAW control and mixing etc in the same unit - hard to find any alternatives.


Best,

Tanuj.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 28, 2010)

Thanks Tanuj but not really for me. Not really after an analogue mixer, or digital for that matter.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Nov 28, 2010)

noiseboyuk,

Actually, I am getting it for other reasons too. I am setting up a pro control room for myself and I needed a Summing Mixer/Monitor Controller/DAW Controller - it helps also when an engineer is brought in to do a msuic pre-mix. 


Plus it has AES, so I am going to use Lynx Aurora 16 AD-DA and AES card and sync everything digitally - which will all sum up in The Audient and finally go out to high resolution custom monitors. 

It kind of sits beautifully in my set up. 

I suppose Euphonix as attractive options for control surfaces only but its not for PC yet. 

I just heard Jazzmutant is shutting down so may be Ipad is the way to go for now - if more apps come up. 


Best,

Tanuj.


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