# Audio Modeling SWAM Woodwinds v3 are out now



## Ben H (Oct 26, 2021)

So the Audio Modeling SWAM Woodwinds v3 are available now

Here's a list of what's new in v3:

Improved sound behavior compared to Solo Woodwinds v2 for desktop
Extended range on some instruments
Standalone, VST3, NKS support
Completely renewed User Experience (UX) compared to Solo Woodwinds v2 for desktop
Standing wave visualization
Preset management
Extensive MIDI mapping
Ready to use MIDI presets for several expressive controllers
Bluetooth MIDI support
New sound parameters: Alt. Fingering, Timbral Correction, EQ, Early Reflection Amount
Microtuning improvements, presets and MAQAM support
Accessibility support

No v3 demos yet though.

https://audiomodeling.com/swam-engine/solo-woodwinds/


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## muziksculp (Oct 26, 2021)

@Ben H ,

Thanks for the heads up on SWAM V3 Woodwinds release.  

Looking forward to hear demos, and watch videos of SWAM V3 Woodwinds. Hopefully V3 is a big improvement compared to V2. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Oct 26, 2021)

OK, I upgraded from SWAM Double Reeds V2 to V3 for $62. 

This includes : SWAM V3 Bassoon, Contra Bassoon, English Horn, Oboe.


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## muziksculp (Oct 26, 2021)

I wonder how good the SWAM V3 Flutes are, which include :

Flute, Alto Flute , Bass Flute, and Piccolo


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## Monkberry (Oct 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> OK, I upgraded from SWAM Double Reeds V2 to V3 for $62.
> 
> This includes : SWAM V3 Bassoon, Contra Bassoon, English Horn, Oboe.


I own the whole bundle. $187 to upgrade to V3. Ouch! Would love to hear what you think about the V3 update on the double reeds. They are my favorite section in the woodwinds bundle.


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## muziksculp (Oct 26, 2021)

Monkberry said:


> I own the whole bundle. $187 to upgrade to V3. Ouch! Would love to hear what you think about the V3 update on the double reeds. They are my favorite section in the woodwinds bundle.


Cool ! 

Let us know what you think of the V3 Flutes Bundle, and how much they have been improved compared to V2. 

Thanks


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## Ben H (Oct 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> @Ben H ,
> 
> Thanks for the heads up on SWAM V3 Woodwinds release.
> 
> Looking forward to hear demos, and watch videos of SWAM V3 Woodwinds.


Yeah, me too. 



muziksculp said:


> Hopefully V3 is a big improvement compared to V2.


It better be. Given that they are charging for it.


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## Monkberry (Oct 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Cool !
> 
> Let us know what you think of the V3 Flutes Bundle, and how much they have been improved compared to V2.
> 
> Thanks


Will do. I realize the $187 is fair for the entire bundle as it comes out to $46.75 per category. I've been buying libraries like there's no tomorrow over the last few weeks so I'll have to talk myself into this one. Gonna force myself to sleep on it or maybe just take an afternoon nap and then decide.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 26, 2021)

Oy. Looks like my SWAM Saxes need a v3 upgrade then, eh?


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## Henu (Oct 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I wonder how good the SWAM V3 Flutes are


I found the v2 a bit dissappointing, especially when exposed. So in that sense I actually am eagerly wanting to hear those v3 demos!


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## muziksculp (Oct 26, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Oy. Looks like my SWAM Saxes need a v3 upgrade then, eh?


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## doctoremmet (Oct 26, 2021)

Thanks Tarek!


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## DANIELE (Oct 26, 2021)

Wow, they already dropped!! I didn't expecting to see them so early.


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## muziksculp (Oct 26, 2021)

Henu said:


> I found the v2 a bit dissappointing, especially when exposed. So in that sense I actually am eagerly wanting to hear those v3 demos!


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## muziksculp (Oct 26, 2021)

I like the way the SWAM V3 Sax sounds  

Very rich, and realistic, and expressive.


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## Henu (Oct 26, 2021)

What's with the sax attacks and the legatos in this video? It sounds way worse than v2, like....super-attacky and "unglued" suddenly compared to the earlier version!

EDIT: Sorry @muziksculp :D


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## chopin4525 (Oct 26, 2021)

[/meanmodeon]Stefano Lucato's hairs came back so he could shoot the video or it is old footage? [/off]
Edit. The description solved the riddle. xD


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## decredis (Oct 26, 2021)

I like the v2 flutes for certain styles, especially towards the more jazz/'ethnic' end, and the flutter is nice. I can't very clearly hear difference in the v3 from that demo video. I'll be interested to hear side by side v2 vs v3 comparison or thoughts from people who upgrade.


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## muziksculp (Oct 26, 2021)

Henu said:


> What's with the sax attacks and the legatos in this video? It sounds way worse than v2, like....super-attacky and "unglued" suddenly compared to the earlier version!
> 
> EDIT: Sorry @muziksculp :D


No worries, I'm no sax expert, and rarely use sax in my music, or should I even say... never. 

But I liked what I heard in the video, maybe the hyped attacks are intentional, not something that you get stuck with, maybe too much velocity on the attacks ? I found the same thing with their V3 Flute playthrough video. A bit too hyped in the attacks.


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## Monkberry (Oct 26, 2021)

The V3 tenor sax video sounds like the fast legato playing is at a consistently high velocity when he's ripping and not enough variation between notes to change timbre. The expression pedal doesn't have time to vary note to note unless you play something much slower. A real sax is a somewhat less consistent instrument when you consider pads, keys and fingers contributing to the outcome. I think if you were to go into the midi file and alter the velocity you could compensate. That is the case on the tenor sax with version 2. We need to see more videos but I suspect this will be fairly good. Also, a breath controller may offer better results. I do like the overall tone.


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## DANIELE (Oct 26, 2021)

I think I'll pull the trigger since as an owner of V2 the price for the upgrade is relatively low.


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## Windbag (Oct 26, 2021)

I'm not gonna put much stock in demos that don't involve a breath controller. I've found AM's instruments to require active variation on a lot of channels to sound convincing...enough so that there's a bit of a learning curve before I'm able to make them do what I want. The tradeoff is that they're incredibly expressive once you're on the other side. I'll probably pick up the flutes in the next couple days and will try to carve some time for a demo....hoping there is more timbral difference than is apparent in the one explainer video.


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## timbit2006 (Oct 26, 2021)

We have until May 2022 to resist the urge to upgrade.


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## youngpokie (Oct 26, 2021)

Reading the Release Notes (Flutes) but not seeing much in terms of any sonic improvements. There is a line about timbral correction, EQ and ER that sounds intriguing. But overall, could this be more of a UX update?


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## DANIELE (Oct 26, 2021)

I bought the flutes and I'm having A LOT of clicks and pops, everything seems normal on my hardware, no spikes or abnormal cpu usage but it is unplayable. Both the VST and VST3 versions. Same PC the V3 strings work fine.
Same with standalone version, so it is not a Reaper fault.

EDIT

I restarted the PC and the problem seems gone. Now it works very well.


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## muziksculp (Oct 26, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> I bought the flutes and I'm having A LOT of clicks and pops, everything seems normal on my hardware, no spikes or abnormal cpu usage but it is unplayable. Both the VST and VST3 versions. Same PC the V3 strings work fine.
> Same with standalone version, so it is not a Reaper fault.
> 
> EDIT
> ...


I would be interested in reading your opinion about the SWAM V3 Flutes, once you have spent some time with them. 

THANKS


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## jamwerks (Oct 26, 2021)

Man are they expensive!!


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## John Longley (Oct 26, 2021)

Anybody have some examples of the flutes and saxes used in a jazz context? Interested, but scared…


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## ResidentSmeagol (Oct 26, 2021)

I don't know - I just checked mine and it says I have Swam saxophones, Swam double reeds, and Swam Clarinets. The total to upgrade to v3 from v2 for me is $425. Yikes - I'm gonna sit this one out for a while until reports come rolling in and I hear if it's actually worth that much to upgrade.

EDIT: Ok, I think I got it wrong. It says that's the total to upgrade to the Woodwinds bundle which I'm not sure why it's offering me that. The upgrade page is confusing as heck. I had to individually calculate each upgrade. So Saxes and double reeds are 62 Euros each and Clarinets are 42 euros. So 166 euros / $192.50 USD. Still a little pricey so I'm gonna wait for reports nonetheless.


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## CT (Oct 26, 2021)

Hmm. Will have to try these.


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## Kevin63101 (Oct 26, 2021)

chopin4525 said:


> [/meanmodeon]Stefano Lucato's hairs came back so he could shoot the video or it is old footage? [/off]
> Edit. The description solved the riddle. xD


Definitely updated content but ...

I wondered if the video portion of him playing in all of the "explained" videos are old, but edited / reposted with new version 3 graphics. I just bought v2 this month and watched all of the woodwind videos endlessly ... the examples he plays and comments are exactly the same. Wonder if the instrument audio is refreshed on video.

Either way v3 interface looks like a good update. I'm enjoying the v2 woodwinds.


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## Ben H (Oct 26, 2021)

Kevin63101 said:


> Definitely updated content but ...
> 
> I wondered if the video portion of him playing in all of the "explained" videos are old, but edited / reposted with new version 3 graphics.


I think you might be right.


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## Futchibon (Oct 26, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Oy. Looks like my SWAM Saxes need a v3 upgrade then, eh?


Given your predilection for saxes we may have to start calling you 'Kenny T'


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## Ben H (Oct 26, 2021)

Urgh. I bought the bundle update from Ilio to save a few bob a couple of hours ago, but apparently they manually process their orders, so it looks like I'm going to have to wait until tomorrow for someone to fill it. :(


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## Futchibon (Oct 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> OK, I upgraded from SWAM Double Reeds V2 to V3 for $62.
> 
> This includes : SWAM V3 Bassoon, Contra Bassoon, English Horn, Oboe.


Interested to hear how you like them! I really like the V2 of the trumpets, flutes, saxes and clarinets that I don't really feel the need to upgrade (unless the new demos blow me away), but feel the double reeds would be worth it as there's such a variety of them, it's a great little collection


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## DANIELE (Oct 27, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I would be interested in reading your opinion about the SWAM V3 Flutes, once you have spent some time with them.
> 
> THANKS


I will post my impressions for sure.

Yesterday I only had the time to do a very quick test. I put the flutes in my template, in my panorama and did a very quick play. Then I testet a little C minor run to see how they perform, the runs are usually my biggest concern with woodwinds libraries because I like to play with them on the edge of their abilities.

From a first impression the perform well but I still have to fit them correctly in my space, compare them with some real music, compare them with my other woodwinds and so on.

I'll buy also the other libraries except for the saxes, I don't use them.


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## Nando Florestan (Oct 27, 2021)

Suppose you found one, or any, or all SWAM instruments lacking in dynamic range. How would you go about adding dynamic range to them? If you automate the main volume, well, you are ducking ambience (early reflections) where you only wanted to duck the instrument sound, aren't you? Since these don't seem to respond to CC11, there's no way to fix a dynamic range if I find it too narrow, am I right?


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## gamma-ut (Oct 27, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> Since these don't seem to respond to CC11, there's no way to fix a dynamic range if I find it too narrow, am I right?


Eh? They don't even play in the default configuration if they don't detect CC11 being used (the SampleModeling ones have similar behaviour), so I'm not sure why you've got this impression.

I remap to a breath controller, but I haven't had any issues with dynamic range.


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## Nando Florestan (Oct 27, 2021)

I said CC11 because the details are fuzzy to me, but I just meant a second controller to fine-tune the volume of the instrument itself.

I know most people don't have an issue with SWAM dynamic range, but the question is, what if I do. What can I do then?


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## ZeeCount (Oct 27, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> I said CC11 because the details are fuzzy to me, but I just meant a second controller to fine-tune the volume of the instrument itself.
> 
> I know most people don't have an issue with SWAM dynamic range, but the question is, what if I do. What can I do then?


Have you tried turning down the compressor in SWAM?


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## Harzmusic (Oct 27, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> I know most people don't have an issue with SWAM dynamic range, but the question is, what if I do. What can I do then?


By default there's still CC7 assigned for Volume, so you can use that, it doesn't do anything different than the CC11 assignment in most Kontakt Libraries. SWAM V3 allows you to completely reassign all controllers, so you could set CC1 for Dynamics and CC11 for Volume, or any other configuration if you like.


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## odod (Oct 27, 2021)

i bought version 2, just 2 days ago .. holy cow! i hope they have some kind of grace period, because i thought the v3 will come out next year

P.S = they do not have grace period .. ok then .. time to save some money again


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## Nando Florestan (Oct 27, 2021)

ZeeCount said:


> Have you tried turning down the compressor in SWAM?


Yes, I didn't miss that.


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## youngpokie (Oct 27, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> I know most people don't have an issue with SWAM dynamic range, but the question is, what if I do. What can I do then?


IIRR, CC7(master volume), CC11 (expression) and velocity (attack) are directly controllable in real time. Additionally, there is a compression slider that narrows or expands the dynamic range. I haven't touched it in a long time, but I think higher values mean less and less difference between _p_ and _f._

I'm very interested in where you come from with your observation. For me the dynamic range in SWAM woodwinds is actually way too wide compared to real instruments and they sound strained and extreme at high CC11 values. It would be very hard if not impossible for a real player to maintain something like CC11=100 volume for anything except an accent or a quick passage. Of course, this might be what you want, that's why I was curious...


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## Maarten (Oct 27, 2021)

For those who are interested. After some noodling.
The sound & the visuals of the SWAM BaritonSax v.3 and Flute v.3 (Bansuri preset) can be heard on:


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## Nando Florestan (Oct 27, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> the dynamic range in SWAM woodwinds is actually way too wide compared to real instruments and they sound strained and extreme at high CC11 values


OK, thank you for letting me know! Really, thank you very much. I don't actually have any SWAM instruments, I just saw the oboe (I think) briefly a couple years ago at my friend's, and I must be misremembering something.

I am liking the demos.


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## CT (Oct 27, 2021)

I've had some time to try these tonight, and it does feel to me like there are some noticeable and much needed improvements to timbre in some spots. I was actually about to go ahead and buy them when I saw the sale ended... yesterday? Rubs me the wrong way a little bit, that timing....


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## maestro2be (Oct 27, 2021)

odod said:


> i bought version 2, just 2 days ago .. holy cow! i hope they have some kind of grace period, because i thought the v3 will come out next year
> 
> P.S = they do not have grace period .. ok then .. time to save some money again


Ouch. Can you possibly return and repurchase v3?


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## Zanshin (Oct 27, 2021)

Michaelt said:


> I've had some time to try these tonight, and it does feel to me like there are some noticeable and much needed improvements to timbre in some spots. I was actually about to go ahead and buy them when I saw the sale ended... yesterday? Rubs me the wrong way a little bit, that timing....


I think if you added the sale price of V2 and the upgrade cost to V3 it wasn't much of a sale. Like 5%? Maybe 5% is wrong, but I did the mental math and it didn't seem like much of sale if you planned to upgrade to V3.


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## CT (Oct 27, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> I think if you added the sale price of V2 and the upgrade cost to V3 it wasn't much of a sale. Like 5%? Maybe 5% is wrong, but I did the mental math and it didn't seem like much of sale if you planned to upgrade to V3.


I see... so there was no overlap during which a full purchase of v3 was available at the sale price? That makes sense.


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## Zanshin (Oct 27, 2021)

Michaelt said:


> I see... so there was no overlap during which a full purchase of v3 was available at the sale price? That makes sense.



Exactly. When I first saw the offer I was tempted until I dug further. It felt disingenuous, but I guess always read the fine print. Lots of devs offer discounts and then free upgrades around major upgrades (Ableton for example, I want to say I bought Cubase Pro like that too), but nope.

Last Black Friday this was the offer which was not horrible:








Black Friday SWAM Bundles Promo! | Audio Modeling


We are glad to announce that any SWAM Bundle is discounted now until November 27 EXTENDED UNTIL MONDAY 30th! The SWAM Bundles




audiomodeling.com





I'm really only interested in the Woodwinds, the rest don't sound as good to me. But Xsamples might scratch that same itch...


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## odod (Oct 27, 2021)

maestro2be said:


> Ouch. Can you possibly return and repurchase v3?


they said NO, because they gave 35% discount already .. well .. i might have to sale this V2


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## Markrs (Oct 27, 2021)

The iOS versions, whilst having a few less advanced options, at least get any new updates (there are no versions in iOS, unless they bring them in at a later date), plus are on sale as they release woodwinds to iOS. It is a shame they didn't bring in a similar structure for desktop.


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## Monkberry (Oct 28, 2021)

I decided to go for the Solo Woodwinds Bundle update after rationalizing that it's only costing $13.36 per instrument (rounded up) with a total of 14 instruments. After a very brief run through and a few comparisons to V2, it is worth it for (for me) the interface upgrade alone. I can't say there is any significant tonal upgrade but I really have not had enough time to compare. I spent most of my time picking the best instrument to my ears per category, then tweaking & saving from there. In many cases, the first dry instruments seem to be the better starting point as well as the ones labelled warm. I'll have to spend a bit more time with comparisons but inevitably, as was posted in an earlier thread on SWAM instruments updates, I really like Audiomodeling and I'm happy to see their products move forward so I'll support them.


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## Gingham Jones (Oct 28, 2021)

Audio Modeling offers a free trial period for v3 stuff. I've been playing around for the last hour or so in Studio One, flipping back and forth between the v2 and v3 versions. AM themselves said in a comment that the tone in v2 was good enough so why change it? But then why buy a $200 upgrade? 

Alright alright, the new interface looks infinitely more appealing. For some reason now you can do really long portamentos with clarinets if you like that kind of thing. The clarinet tone is also noticeably brighter so if you thought v2 was too muffled and dark, then it might be worth upgrading. A spectrum analyzer indeed shows quite the difference in the tonal makeup of the clarinet, and a slightly different arrangement in the rest of the instruments, usually a tad more in the upper harmonics. Maybe there's some more "under the hood" stuff affecting how the instruments slide and glide and legato and attack, and maybe I'm not discerning enough to notice it. 

Personally I'm not convinced it's worth a buy. I just bought a bunch of crap and make crap for money so I'm a harder customer to convince, but, other than the clarinet, I'm having a hard time justifying spending almost $200. We'll see if that changes in a week!


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## DANIELE (Oct 28, 2021)

I'm still having a lot of crack and pops with this V3 woodwinds when I play them in real time, I'm trying to troubleshoot the thing but it is almost impossible. I restart the computer and everything works fine, so smooth, no problem. After some time it starts doing all of this and there's nothing I can do to fix it, I can only restart the PC. In my last try I literally didn't do anything, I only leaved the DAW opened with the record armed on the track. It worked after opening everything, then I went to another room and when I come back to play again after 40 minutes it started behaving wrong, nothing happened in the meantime.

I'm not able to reproduce the issue. Every other plugin or instrument works fine, the strings work fine, the brass work fine, the woodwinds no, and if I keep the record button armed the other libraries start to have the same problem, in some way the record button armed influences the driver. Once this happens if I try every SWAM standalone instrument it starts clicking and popping.

The CPU is fine, the disks are fine, everything in the monitoring is fine, no CPU spikes, nothing at all.

I already asked the support but no solution yet. Am I the only one facing these issues? I really don't understand what the hell is happening.

I updated all the driver, reinstalled everything, no solution.

I'll wait for a patch, hoping that they will fix this problem.


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## Zanshin (Oct 28, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> I'm still having a lot of crack and pops with this V3 woodwinds when I play them in real time, I'm trying to troubleshoot the thing but it is almost impossible. I restart the computer and everything works fine, so smooth, no problem. After some time it starts doing all of this and there's nothing I can do to fix it, I can only restart the PC. In my last try I literally didn't do anything, I only leaved the DAW opened with the record armed on the track. It worked after opening everything, then I went to another room and when I come back to play again after 40 minutes it started behaving wrong, nothing happened in the meantime.
> 
> I'm not able to reproduce the issue. Every other plugin or instrument works fine, the strings work fine, the brass work fine, the woodwinds no, and if I keep the record button armed the other libraries start to have the same problem, in some way the record button armed influences the driver. Once this happens if I try every SWAM standalone instrument it starts clicking and popping.
> 
> ...


Danielle, assuming windows, what are your power settings at? Make sure it is set to never throttle your cpu.

Settings>Power & Sleep>Additional Power Settings

And then go into a plan, I created my own, and then "Change advanced power settings"

And then Processor power management>Minimum processor state> make it 100%
Processor power management>Maximum processor state> make it 100%

I also turn off UBS suspend and PCI Express Link State Power Management

Also note, sometimes windows just changes this stuff on updates or whatever.

Hope this helps or you figure it out! If this isn't it, have you tried enlarging the buffer size?


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## Windbag (Oct 28, 2021)

Well I sprang for the Flutes and am happy to report that there is improvement that I would characterize as incremental sonically and significant for UI. I'm attaching some hasty bounces to try to highlight what I'm hearing;

First, some V2/V3 (in that order) comparison using clips I recall hearing used as demos (like the rest of that Bach phrase from the video). This is all performed realtime using a slight modification on my usual modeled wind setup: a BBC2 breath controller for expression (breath) input, expression pedal (FC7) mapped to formant for something like embouchure control (sometimes I'll use the bite control for this) and continuous damper pedal for vibrato, rather than the Roli which I find preferable for reed and string instruments. Unlike the reeds, I can't seem to play in a vibrato that sounds as good as the LFO in use here, so i have it on a spring-returned pedal:

View attachment SWAMFlute_Bach.mp3


V3's higher notes are smoother and less tinny to my ear...a particular weakness I had to avoid with the older versions. Closer to the hollow, silvery resonance I like in a good concert flute, and a welcome, if subtle, change

View attachment SWAMFlute_Syrinx.mp3


Lower notes seem to largely retain the timbre but manage transitions without the steps that come across like compression artifacts in the older instrument. Just smoother and more natural


....and sticking with Debussy, here's the new flute set in light orchestration (I prefer winds to sit back a little bit; it's not fine tuned so go ahead with your "soaked in reverb" comments  

View attachment SWAMFlute_LaMer.mp3


If i'm honest, I still wish for a touch more of that shrill cut-through-orchestra top end, but this round seems to go a measurable distance toward weeding out the 'tin whistle' characteristics I had to work around with V2 and earlier


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## Stevie (Oct 28, 2021)

I really dislike when they add a red „discontinued“ on your v2 purchases.
Also, putting a time limit on upgrading seems shady as hell to me.


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## CT (Oct 28, 2021)

After playing with these and doing comparisons with other woodwinds, it's still not there for me. The initial seduction of easy playability evaporates when the amount of effort actually needed for the same parts done with normal samples is directly compared, as well as the sound. The strings won me over within a few minutes. The winds, maybe v4.


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## goonman (Oct 28, 2021)

For what it's worth, you have between now and April to upgrade...about 6 months.


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## ag75 (Oct 28, 2021)

odod said:


> i bought version 2, just 2 days ago .. holy cow! i hope they have some kind of grace period, because i thought the v3 will come out next year
> 
> P.S = they do not have grace period .. ok then .. time to save some money again


I would write them and explain, nicely, what happened. More than likely they will let you upgrade them. They have great costumer service.


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## Zanshin (Oct 28, 2021)

ag75 said:


> I would write them and explain, nicely, what happened. More than likely they will let you upgrade them. They have great costumer service.


The promo price he received was literally because the new version was coming. Here's the promo verbiage:

"All Version 2 SWAM Solo Woodwinds are currently available at more than a third off of their regular price, but this sale lasts only until the release of the V3 versions… which will happen less than one day from now. This 35% discount is an amazing saving on Audio Modeling’s breakthrough virtual wind instruments, which are built on performance-ready modeling technology, rather than bulky, elaborate sample sets."

and then ...

"What’s more, if you take advantage of these great prices, you become eligible for a special upgrade price to the V3 instruments: an incredible 75% off the V3 price. Combine the two discounts by buying the V2 instruments and then upgrading to V3, and pay less than buying V3 instruments at their regular price."


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## DANIELE (Oct 28, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Danielle, assuming windows, what are your power settings at? Make sure it is set to never throttle your cpu.
> 
> Settings>Power & Sleep>Additional Power Settings
> 
> ...


Thank you for reply. Yes I'm on Windows 10.

I remember I already check those settings but I'll double check them once I will be at home. Anyway I don't think they are the cause.

Infact, why the SWAM Strings V3 and the SWAM Brass work well? Why I have this issue with woodwinds only? I'm not experiencing issues like this with kontakt instruments nor with other SWAM instruments.

The woods and only the woods behave like this, if it was a hardware or settings problem I should have it with all libraries. So I ended up thinking it is a woods fault.

I'm also thinking is something with a delayed start. I'll try this evening to confirm that. I mean, I boot the PC, I start Reaper and I fire up SWAM Woodwinds, everything works, after a while it starts to behaving wrong.

I'll try to boot the PC and wait without doing anything, after a while I'll try to open SWAM Woods and see what happens.
I'm start to thinking it could be Intel Rapid Storage Driver because it has a delayed start and I had to reinstall the driver because it was taking one of my cores to 100%.
After reinstalling the driver it stopped doing this and my cores are all ok now.

Anyway only the SWAM Woods are affected by this so it is very strange, the same engine has problems with the woods and no problems with the strings and brass.
I think they should fix this anyway.


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## Ben H (Oct 29, 2021)

I have the entire woods V3 and the brass (but not the strings), and NONE of them behave as you describe on Windows 10 for me.

Just ruling out the fact that you are saying it must be a fault with the woods.


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## gamma-ut (Oct 29, 2021)

@DANIELE: On a hunch that it's probably some interaction with the hardware, there is an option to switch OpenGL rendering on or off tucked away in the settings (well there's one on OS X but I assume it's in Windows too as Apple doesn't like OpenGL anymore). Does that make a difference?


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## DANIELE (Oct 29, 2021)

Ben H said:


> I have the entire woods V3 and the brass (but not the strings), and NONE of them behave as you describe on Windows 10 for me.
> 
> Just ruling out the fact that you are saying it must be a fault with the woods.


Yeah it must be, just because I don't have that problem with the same engine on brass and strings.



gamma-ut said:


> @DANIELE: On a hunch that it's probably some interaction with the hardware, there is an option to switch OpenGL rendering on or off tucked away in the settings (well there's one on OS X but I assume it's in Windows too as Apple doesn't like OpenGL anymore). Does that make a difference?


Already tried to disable that option, same issue.


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## Ben H (Oct 29, 2021)

@DANIELE Are they all installed on the same drive?


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## DANIELE (Oct 29, 2021)

Ben H said:


> @DANIELE Are they all installed on the same drive?


Yes, same SSD.


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## Ben H (Oct 29, 2021)

Is it happening in standalone or plugin only?
-Could be a DAW specific bug

Are you using VST2 on one and VST3 on the other?
-Might be VST2 or VST3 bug only


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## DANIELE (Oct 29, 2021)

Ben H said:


> Is it happening in standalone or plugin only?
> -Could be a DAW specific bug
> 
> Are you using VST2 on one and VST3 on the other?
> -Might be VST2 or VST3 bug only


Happens both in standalone and DAW. Once is start happening in DAW with woods only then it happens in standalone too but with all the instruments, strings, brass and winds.
It happens both with VST2 and VST3 plugins, it doesn't happen with woods V2.


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## Ben H (Oct 29, 2021)

@DANIELE I'm stumped atm, sorry.
Maybe Audio Modeling might be able to better troubleshoot than I.

I'll keep it in mind though, in case I come up with some other ideas.

EDIT: You should also try posting on the Audio Modeling forum, in case anyone else has had similar problems or can help you to rule things out.


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## DANIELE (Oct 29, 2021)

Ben H said:


> @DANIELE I'm stumped atm, sorry.
> Maybe Audio Modeling might be able to better troubleshoot than I.
> 
> I'll keep it in mind though, in case I come up with some other ideas.


This is why I feel lost too, I tried everything that come to my mind without success, I don't know what I can do more. Anyway I'll update the thing if I learn something else.

Thank you for trying anyway, very appreciated.


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## Windbag (Oct 29, 2021)

No abnormal issues here (my full orchestra template with all the modeled winds going complains a bit, but otherwise I'm having generally better results from V3 than V2). Do you have a buffer setting in your DAW? (apologies if mentioned already - I skimmed)

...

One more quick Flutes sample per the earlier request for jazz context; this uh.. few measures of Ekaya-ish flute shoehorned into an Avishai Cohen cover is as close I get (without loading up older drives or finding time for new mockups) 

View attachment SwamFlute_RememberSHORT.mp3


I'm reminded how nice it is to both have that kind of articulation flexibility in a single patch, and to get what feels like a reasonably accurate sense of how manageable such a line would be for a session player, having to breathe and whatnot


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## muziksculp (Oct 29, 2021)

Hi @Windbag ,

Would you recommend the SWAM Flute V3 for both Classical, and other genre style applications ? 

Anything about it you dislike ? 

I don't have V2, so V3 would be my first SWAM Flute, if I decide to go forward and get it, it's not cheap at $250, although I get Piccolo, Flute, Alto Flute, and Bass Flute. 

Oh.. and how do you like the Alto, and Bass Flutes of V3 ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## DANIELE (Oct 29, 2021)

Windbag said:


> No abnormal issues here (my full orchestra template with all the modeled winds going complains a bit, but otherwise I'm having generally better results from V3 than V2). Do you have a buffer setting in your DAW? (apologies if mentioned already - I skimmed)


I tried with many buffer settings and it seems to almost disappear when I use 1024 but I manage to use all my kontakt orchestral template at 256, and there is always the same question: why the other SWAM instruments perform well? Why? 

I'm doing some tests and I managed to use them for a long time without issues, and then...they happened again. How is this even possible? Why after so many time? I really cannot explain this behavior, is out of range for me!

I like the instruments and I'm managing to put them in my template to fit all the orchestra but this is really out of control, maybe is start to happens when I open the UI but I'm still in complete darkness...

EDIT

I updated the video drivers and the problem is gone, it is the first time I'm able to solve the issue without restarting the PC, I'm actually thinking it is a GUI problem at this point.
I don't think I solved the issue but at least it seems that I may have hit the right button.


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## Windbag (Oct 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Would you recommend the SWAM Flute V3 for both Classical, and other genre style applications ?
> 
> Anything about it you dislike ?


I hadn't really gotten a chance to mess around with the other instruments but on very quick tour, the same observations seem to hold true with the possible exception of the piccolo, which seems to benefit more from the reduced tinniness up high. More super quick bounces:

Piccolo (just noodling):

View attachment SwamPiccolo.mp3


Alto (Bassoon is still V2):
View attachment SwamAlto_BoleroShort.mp3


Bass (I don't really use a bass flute, so here's more Debussy an octave down)

View attachment SwamBass_Faun.mp3


This last one is maybe a good answer to your other question as it is entirely modeled instruments (V2 for the other SWAM stuff, SM horn, WIVI clarinets, Modartt rather excellent harp). At this point I consider myself spoiled by how expressive and seemless (in terms of workflow) these are and have lost most of my interest in sample libraries.

It comes down to this:

A. If writing for other people, I have a freer, closer analog to the intended instrument that makes for a more fun and hopefully more understanding process.

B. If recording my own parts, I feel much more like I'm putting down a performance than programming recordings....if that makes any sense. In fact it's often difficult for me to go back and correct things; I tend to just play it in again. (and again....and again)


The only unfavorable thing coming to mind (not new but persisting in V3) is the very bottom of the breath control range. There's a 'dead band' to allow for silence at Velocity 0 that seems abrupt. It tends to feel unpredictable for long, decrescendo sustains, and while there is a new "Breathy" PPP mode (switchable), it seems to have the opposite problem in that it seems difficult to actually voice the note.....but I need to play with this more than 2 minutes


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## Windbag (Oct 29, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> I updated the video drivers and the problem is gone, it is the first time I'm able to solve the issue without restarting the PC, I'm actually thinking it is a GUI problem at this point.
> I don't think I solved the issue but at least it seems that I may have hit the right button.


Wow...that's a not a thing I would have thought to try, but glad you're operational, at least!


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## muziksculp (Oct 29, 2021)

Windbag said:


> The only unfavorable thing coming to mind (not new but persisting in V3) is the very bottom of the breath control range. There's a 'dead band' to allow for silence at Velocity 0 that seems abrupt. It tends to feel unpredictable for long, decrescendo sustains, and while there is a new "Breathy" PPP mode (switchable), it seems to have the opposite problem in that it seems difficult to actually voice the note.....but I need to play with this more than 2 minutes


Hi @Windbag,

I'm the performer type as well, not a fan of too much surgical programming in the key-editor, especially mouse entry. So, I would use a Breath Controller, and tweak parameters via CCs in real time. If it doesn't sound right, I will just record a second take. 

I have that same issue when using Sample Modeling Strings, and want a really nice, and smooth decrescendo to niente, without a sudden/abrubt silence kicking in. I find this quite critical in exposed passages, that can be quite a realism killer, and quite annoying. 

Thanks for the helpful feedback, and audio clips. 

I will wait until I read, and hear more feedback about the SWAM Flute V3 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## DANIELE (Oct 29, 2021)

Windbag said:


> Wow...that's a not a thing I would have thought to try, but glad you're operational, at least!


The issue is happening again, I didn't solve it but that thing made me think. I tried to restart the video driver but it didn't worked. Uff...I'm getting tired and I feel like a developer instead of a composer.


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## Virtual Virgin (Oct 29, 2021)

Windbag said:


> The only unfavorable thing coming to mind (not new but persisting in V3) is the very bottom of the breath control range. There's a 'dead band' to allow for silence at Velocity 0 that seems abrupt. It tends to feel unpredictable for long, decrescendo sustains, and while there is a new "Breathy" PPP mode (switchable), it seems to have the opposite problem in that it seems difficult to actually voice the note.....but I need to play with this more than 2 minutes



Thank you for reminding me about this, as it is something I have tried to tackle before with expression input/output curves for breath control before I realized it is a matter of the plugin itself. There are inconsistencies about where exactly the plugin begins to register a signal, and everything below is cutoff with a threshold. In my opinion the jump between "0" and "1" (when the threshold is broken and the plugin actually starts to make a note) is too jarring. I think the digital on/off at the very low end of the dynamic spectrum should be smoothed over and they should make that space around 1-10 usable and respond with the lowest amplitude (instead of digital black).


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## Henu (Oct 30, 2021)

Windbag said:


> more Debussy


I can't recall this one to save my life. What piece is it?


----------



## Markrs (Oct 30, 2021)

Henu said:


> I can't recall this one to save my life. What piece is it?


I think it is Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune


----------



## FKVStudio (Oct 30, 2021)

Hi everyone! Out of curiosity, to know of previous cases. Does anyone know how long it took for Audiodeluxe to have the update from SWAM Strings V2 to V3 in its catalog after its official launch? To get an idea of how long it might take for the SWAM Woodwinds V3 update to be in your store.

Thanks!


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## muziksculp (Oct 30, 2021)

Hi,

I would appreciate reading more feedback about SWAM Flutes V3 .

There is very little posted on YT in terms of demos. Given I don't have V2, my price is $250. not spare change, so I would appreciate any feedback from users of this new SWAM V3 Flutes collection.

@Windbag provided some very helpful feedback (THANKS), additional feedback from other users would be nice as well. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## richhickey (Oct 30, 2021)

Hrm, there's a Note Off Velocity switch in the MIDI settings, but no documentation as to what it controls.


----------



## Windbag (Oct 30, 2021)

richhickey said:


> Hrm, there's a Note Off Velocity switch in the MIDI settings, but no documentation as to what it controls.


This seems to be referring to note up or key-off velocity (which my keyboard does actually send)....this will do much the same thing as initial velocity if there's another note held down, i.e. a trill. The speed at which you release the note will control the transition speed, key noise volume, etc....on keyboards that don't send key-up values, it'll just be fixed. 



Henu said:


> I can't recall this one to save my life. What piece is it?





Markrs said:


> I think it is Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune


Oui  prelude to the Afternoon of the Faun for those of us whose frainçais est no beuno....which does, in fairness, do a better job showing off V3 flutes in the original register: 

View attachment SwamAlto_Faun.mp3


The more I attempt with this update, the more excited I am...it's still unreal to me that I can blow into a computer and make it do that


----------



## LudovicVDP (Oct 30, 2021)




----------



## richhickey (Oct 30, 2021)

Windbag said:


> This seems to be referring to note up or key-off velocity (which my keyboard does actually send)....this will do much the same thing as initial velocity if there's another note held down, i.e. a trill. The speed at which you release the note will control the transition speed, key noise volume, etc....on keyboards that don't send key-up values, it'll just be fixed.


I've done some experimentation now - I'm not seeing or hearing it do that, nor anything else.

It sure would be great to have some release envelope control on all of the SWAM instruments though. Right now release time is a set-it-and-forget-it parameter on the brass and winds, with no MIDI control, and not present at all on the strings.

Why allow for control of the attacks but not the releases? Both are pretty important if you are not using a breath controller and don't feel like painting in all the release envelopes.


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## muziksculp (Oct 30, 2021)

Love the SWAM Sax V3 performance in the video above.


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## muziksculp (Oct 30, 2021)

Windbag said:


> The more I attempt with this update, the more excited I am...it's still unreal to me that I can blow into a computer and make it do that


@Windbag, Loving your Flute demos. I'm getting more excited about SWAM Flute V3 the more I hear your demos. 

You are tempting me.  But not good news for my wallet.


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## Henu (Oct 30, 2021)

RE: SWAM Sax V3 performance: 

I don't, and I don't know what's wrong with me! It's already the second video of v3 where I hear them in action and after 10 seconds that "I don't remember v2 sounding this bad" starts to creep into my mind. The flutes on the other hand, sound gorgeous- especially in the hands (mouth? :D) of @Windbag . I wasn't a fan of v2 but this update sounds way better.


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## muziksculp (Oct 30, 2021)

Henu said:


> RE: SWAM Sax V3 performance:
> 
> I don't, and I don't know what's wrong with me! It's already the second video of v3 where I hear them in action and after 10 seconds that "I don't remember v2 sounding this bad" starts to creep into my mind. The flutes on the other hand, sound gorgeous- especially in the hands (mouth? :D) of @Windbag . I wasn't a fan of v2 but this update sounds way better.


Maybe it's that I'm not a Sax connoisseur, but I am a Flute connoisseur, so much more picky about flutes, also Double Reeds, especially Oboe, Eng.Horn, and Bassoon. 

But honestly, I don't hear anything annoying with the Sax, actually I really like it... Oh well. Maybe it's all a matter of taste. 

Oh.. What exactly you dislike about the Sax ?


----------



## Henu (Oct 30, 2021)

I don't know- maybe the attacks and somehow how the notes connect to each other pops to my mind at first. I on the other hand have a background in jazz so maybe that explains, haha!


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## muziksculp (Oct 31, 2021)

Hi,

A question about SWAM V3 Flutes. Since I don't own V2, my price at this time is $250. , and I'm guessing this is the standard price, not discounted. Since I don't see any intro discount offer. 

Do they do a BF sale ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## Markrs (Oct 31, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> A question about SWAM V3 Flutes. Since I don't own V2, my price at this time is $250. , and I'm guessing this is the standard price, not discounted. Since I don't see any intro discount offer.
> 
> ...


I think they normally do up to 30% off (the brass was 20% off) during BF









Black Friday SWAM Bundles Promo! | Audio Modeling


We are glad to announce that any SWAM Bundle is discounted now until November 27 EXTENDED UNTIL MONDAY 30th! The SWAM Bundles




audiomodeling.com


----------



## Windbag (Oct 31, 2021)

richhickey said:


> I've done some experimentation now - I'm not seeing or hearing it do that, nor anything else.
> 
> It sure would be great to have some release envelope control on all of the SWAM instruments though. Right now release time is a set-it-and-forget-it parameter on the brass and winds, with no MIDI control, and not present at all on the strings.
> 
> Why allow for control of the attacks but not the releases? Both are pretty important if you are not using a breath controller and don't feel like painting in all the release envelopes.


At the risk of asking a dumb question, are you certain your controller is sending it? This (SL88) is the first keyboard I've ever had that does.

Definitely hear you about the release control but it ends up being sort of a nonissue using breath control, which is just quick enough to allow the expression value to control attack and release for even the quickest of staccatos/double tonguing, etc...I can't really move a wheel or pedal that fast. That seems to be the idea behind these...with the keypresses really only acting as yes/no gates, hard cutting a note if you key off before a 0 or low threshold exp value is reached



muziksculp said:


> Do they do a BF sale ?


I think they did 30% off bundles last year ....I (vaguely) recall that upgrades weren't effected (i.e. from one or two instruments to the whole winds or all-in bundle) . Pretty sure I picked up the Cello on BF/CM special a year or so before


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## muziksculp (Oct 31, 2021)

Windbag said:


> I think they did 30% off bundles last year ....I (vaguely) recall that upgrades weren't effected (i.e. from one or two instruments to the whole winds or all-in bundle) . Pretty sure I picked up the Cello on BF/CM special a year or so before


THANKS  

I will wait for their BF Sale to buy the SWAM V3 Flutes.


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## muziksculp (Oct 31, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I think they normally do up to 30% off (the brass was 20% off) during BF
> 
> 
> 
> ...


THANKS


----------



## DANIELE (Oct 31, 2021)

I just did another try just out of curiosity since I still was not be able to solve the issue or to catch what is causing it.

I tried to reinstall the nVidia driver again (the same actually installed) after the problem happened (after a few time I turned on my PC as usual), it doesn't usually happen in the same amout of time but it appears as a very random behavior, one thing is sure anyway, it will happen, no matter what I can do, it happens even if I don't do anything.

Well, after installing the video driver again the problem disappeared, it will happen again, for sure, but in some way the video driver or the video card does something bad to SWAM WWv3. This is why it doesn't happen to everyone, it maybe depends on your installed hardware and it is maybe a very rare bug (and I obviously have it).

There's no other way I found other than restart the PC to make it works again. I also tried to restart the video driver many times without success, only reinstalling it apparently solve the issue without restarting the PC, until it happens again.

As I said in a previous post I already tried to enable/disable OpenGL rendering without results. No matter if you open the GUI or not, the problem will happen if you are an unlucky user as I am.

I really hope they will fix it because I like the instruments for what I've seen so far. Luckily there are no apparent issues if I use the instruments with the midi editor, the problem appears only if I try to play it live (VST, VST3 and Standalone).
I'll have some more data once I will compose a track using them, I hope that at least I will be able to use them in the midi editor without issues for now, I'm waiting for SM Strings and their 2.0 release to start writing.


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## richhickey (Oct 31, 2021)

Windbag said:


> At the risk of asking a dumb question, are you certain your controller is sending it? This (SL88) is the first keyboard I've ever had that does.
> 
> Definitely hear you about the release control but it ends up being sort of a nonissue using breath control, which is just quick enough to allow the expression value to control attack and release for even the quickest of staccatos/double tonguing, etc...I can't really move a wheel or pedal that fast. That seems to be the idea behind these...with the keypresses really only acting as yes/no gates, hard cutting a note if you key off before a 0 or low threshold exp value is reached


I wrote the note off velocities right into the DAW, not relying on any controller capability.

I disagree that the keypresses are just gates. When not in breath-controller/expression-only mode there are two modes that use note on velocity to control attack volumes+times. So there is some attempt to do performance modeling.

This was just another ho-hum update for SWAM IMO. It seems like the desktop users have just funded the UI rewrite for iPad. I don't even like the new UI - garish colors and many more pages/clicks to get anything done.

I'm investing in SWAM because I'd like to see the modeling tech improve, but it hasn't in quite a long time. There's plenty of room for improvement in both the audio modeling and the performance modeling.


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## Tralen (Oct 31, 2021)

@DANIELE , could you make a comparison with Infinite Woodwinds, in particular, regarding the flute?

That is, if v3 stops giving you trouble.


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## DANIELE (Nov 1, 2021)

Tralen said:


> @DANIELE , could you make a comparison with Infinite Woodwinds, in particular, regarding the flute?
> 
> That is, if v3 stops giving you trouble.


I fear I'll have to wait for a fix from the developers I haven't found any workaround actually.

Anyway from the little tests I did SWAM flutes are sharper and they have some more air than Infinite ones but to give some better informations I need to use them actively in some composition. Once SM strings update is out I'll do it for sure.
This is because using them in a real track would help me to place them correctly in my virtual space. I already placed them but I need to hear how they perform in a complete orchestral context.
Once I placed both of them correctly I can do some real comparisons.

By now I could say something I experienced.

On the Infinite flutes I had to use some eq on high frequencies to add a bit more air on them. On the SWAM ones you can change the style and you can have a lot of air if you want.
The problem is that on shorts you really have a lot of it but I'm sure it is my fault, I have to play with velocity, dynamics and other parameters (SWAM instruments really have a LOT of them).

About the hard attack at low dynamics (silence and sudden sound) is a matter of algorithm, they need to do this because of how they wrote the scripts under the hood. About it I like more the infinite approach where you always have a little bit of sound from the beginning (0 dynamics). I think that with actual technology you can't smoothly transition from complete silence to sound. You can do this in post-processing acting on the volume where you want that kind of transition.

I'm still not fully conviced by the runs but I still have to experimenting a little bit more even if I think they perform better than the actual infinite counterpart. I'm sure the Infinite ones will be better too with the new IW update anyway.


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## rohandelivera (Nov 1, 2021)

Ben H said:


> So the Audio Modeling SWAM Woodwinds v3 are available now
> 
> Here's a list of what's new in v3:
> 
> ...


Also noticing that they're using significantly less cpu. A full orchestra template used to choke a 7.1/16c not anymore!


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## Tralen (Nov 1, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> I fear I'll have to wait for a fix from the developers I haven't found any workaround actually.
> 
> Anyway from the little tests I did SWAM flutes are sharper and they have some more air than Infinite ones but to give some better informations I need to use them actively in some composition. Once SM strings update is out I'll do it for sure.
> This is because using them in a real track would help me to place them correctly in my virtual space. I already placed them but I need to hear how they perform in a complete orchestral context.
> ...


Thanks a lot for the overview.


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## youngpokie (Nov 2, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> On the SWAM ones you can change the style and you can have a lot of air if you want.
> The problem is that on shorts you really have a lot of it but I'm sure it is my fault



Thanks - very interesting! I tried to address this with v2 flutes by limiting their velocity range, for example setting max velocity to be in the 1-70 range. Then, shifting that narrow range up or down within the overall 1-127 spectrum - very similar to gliding up or down with EQ looking for resonances, if it makes sense. So in my case, I ended up with ~26-90 simply because it's better aligned with the force I use to press my keyboard keys and the attacks were more consistent in this range.

I also found that v2 oboe, for example, needs stronger attacks than flutes, so following the same approach I have a higher range on it than flutes. However, I am completely at a loss with English Horn - nothing I try to seems to work and I can never make it sound like an English Horn. It's just awful, to my ears. 

Has anyone got the v3 Double Reeds? Do you hear any improvement in the sound? Thanks!


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## Windbag (Nov 2, 2021)

The reeds, more so than the other AM instruments I have, need active control over formant. It changes the sound in what comes across to me as mouth pressure on the reed, and brings about the very fluid intra-note timbre changes characteristic of the instruments. It works ok mapped to BBC2 bite pressure but since it can be difficult to gauge what value you're sending, I've settle on mapping it to expression pedal (easier to feel when you're close to the middle)...which is probably more useful for you guys anyway.

And yeah the reeds do require higher expression values (more air), as you noted, and only really came alive for me with played-in vibrato via Roli. They are subsequently not especially easy to play, which fits what I've always been told about the real instruments. Since it came up in the video earlier (with the wrong instrument and ...a bit rough) I'll add that Rossini bit to the string of orchestra clichés I've dumped on this thread, noting that this is the V2 English Horn still as I haven't updated yet (next on the list - I'll come back):

View attachment SWAMehorn_Tell.mp3


I remember buying the reeds _despite_ what I was hearing online, and being very pleasantly surprised after some time with them.

Also the V2 Flute did have that style (slider) as well....ranging from classical, through jazz, to ethnic on a numbered slider that seems mostly to correspond to overblow amount (though that does have it's own toggle). I almost always left it bottomed out to keep the higher octaves clean


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## Nando Florestan (Nov 2, 2021)

The tip to ride the formant CC for the oboes makes a huge difference! I find you can even LFO it (keeping it mostly below the halfway point) and the result is so much better!


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## Henu (Nov 2, 2021)

Dear god. How haven't I realized this??! You deserve a prize, @Windbag !


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## youngpokie (Nov 2, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> The tip to ride the formant CC for the oboes makes a huge difference!


I am just to about to try it out. So exciting!

@Windbag what's your approach to doing it? I assume you assigned it a CC, yes? Are you scaling it to limit the range? Grateful for any tips

EDIT: As I'm trying it out, I'm finding that the formant range of approx -6 to +2 seems work for oboe in my case. It reminds me of that very particular "Berlin Soloist" type of transient. I would have never understood what it is if not for @Windbag comment earlier... 

For English Horn, I find myself jerking the formant back and forth a lot more (almost to max of the range) and hitting the keyboard way harder. But here too, if I move the formant around note end/beginning (transitions, I suppose), it also sounds more convincing. 

I'll try it with Leap Motion next.


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## Windbag (Nov 2, 2021)

Yeah the two-edged sword with this modeling approach is that you GET granular control over the perfromance, but then NEED granular control to approximate a live player's fairly complex interactions with their instrument the way we're all accustomed to hearing. 

I've got formant on CC11 (poor ol' FC7) and just play it in while voicing with hands on the roli and/or keyboard (I'd have to go check for actual values). It seems like it would be more intuitive driven by bite pressure since this TEControl does that – and I might be able to teach myself to 'center' that a little better eventually – but that value returns to the lower extreme with no input, so it's tricky.

I can get into this more with V3 when I have it, which leads me back to the topic at hand; anyone got hands on the V3 clarinets yet? I'm waffling on the winds bundle but couldn't shake the impression with the previous clarinet that it was too heavily jazz-skewed for orchestra (apart from Gershwin, heh)...and I'm curious if there's any more flexibility in this update (or alternate models like the strings have)


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## CT (Nov 2, 2021)

Windbag said:


> I'm waffling on the winds bundle but couldn't shake the impression with the previous clarinet that it was too heavily jazz-skewed for orchestra


I felt this with v2 as well, although it wasn't insurmountable. v3 felt to me a little more welcoming in that regard, but the most important adjustment still seems to be how sensitive it is to really pronounced slurred transitions via velocity. It feels like you need to play way too hard to avoid goofy portamento stuff.


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## Virtual Virgin (Nov 3, 2021)

What's the verdict on sonic improvements? That is the only thing I would pay for here. Is the piccolo usable yet?


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## Windbag (Nov 3, 2021)

There's definite improvement that's maybe more evolutionary than revolutionary...but I think the piccolo is the most notably different of the flutes pack; more shrill, less tinny, smoother timbre changes. Here's a more articulate sample (with some decent level this time) you can judge for yourself:

View attachment SWAMPicc_vivaldi.mp3


Can't speak for the other winds yet, but this is what I'll be using


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## CT (Nov 3, 2021)

Great choice of excerpt. I like how it handles it, to some degree, but the key clacks are way too prominent for my taste.


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## Windbag (Nov 3, 2021)

Yeah, seems to come through a bit stronger here than in Logic... might have managed to reset that when bouncing. Who QCed this?! (for anyone unfamiliar with these: key noise has it's own volume pot and easy to reduce or defeat altogether)


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## Virtual Virgin (Nov 4, 2021)

Windbag said:


> There's definite improvement that's maybe more evolutionary than revolutionary...but I think the piccolo is the most notably different of the flutes pack; more shrill, less tinny, smoother timbre changes. Here's a more articulate sample (with some decent level this time) you can judge for yourself:
> 
> View attachment SWAMPicc_vivaldi.mp3
> 
> ...


Thanks 
I do like the tone better- V2 I had to bury a lot in the mix to hide its alien timbre.
I would certainly turn down those key noises though ;P

Now I would love to hear the oboe and english horn in the upper ranges if anyone has those.
The top octave or so on both of these (V2) sound very synthy overall, sounding like an oversimplification of the timbre.


----------



## Thorny (Nov 5, 2021)

I just bought the upgrade and gave it a quick test with a piece I am working on at the moment. I am a newbie, just bought the whole package in June and loving the difference over the VSL libraries I was using.

i do not use the instruments with a controller, I just write directly in Logic and twiddle velocity and CC curves in automation, and articulation in the Piano Roll. I am determined to use my new M1 Pro 14 as a free-standing composition workstation, with the ability to hear reasonably good performance as I go. (Side note: all of the SWAM instruments are working just fine in Mac OS 12.0.1 on an M1 Pro processor.)

i have just updated an exisiting piece for flute, English horn, clarinet, tenor sax and bass clarinet with very little twiddling, except for the tenor sax. Right out of the gate, the flute and E horn sound noticeably better, and I thought both were pretty good before. I have not noticed too much change in the two clarinets, but I thought they sounded really good before. I have not played around much with any of them.

The tenor sax is remarkably changed! First, in my last attempts to try to get it sounding good, I had lowered the velocity and the expression way too low. It was the only instrument that went from a reasonable sound mix in the old version to being almost unable to hear it after the changes. I brought up both to the level of the mix and the sax sounded way better than the old one. I am hearing the richness of tone I remember from having played tenor when I was younger.

I have to quickly repeat that I am really inexperienced with all this. I may have been able to get better results with the older collection but did not know how. I had really played around with the tenor sax a lot though, and it always sounded thin, without the rich overtones. Now it is really good.


----------



## Martin S (Nov 5, 2021)

I’d really love to hear a demo of v3 saxes (particularly tenor and alto) in a jazz context. The v2 didn’t really convince me, but v3 might win me over.


----------



## Tralen (Nov 5, 2021)

Martin S said:


> I’d really love to hear a demo of v3 saxes (particularly tenor and alto) in a jazz context. The v2 didn’t really convince me, but v3 might win me over.


Quoting for emphasis.


----------



## Daniel Taylor (Nov 8, 2021)

Any more demo's of the Oboe would be much appreciated, it's in my opinion the weakest of the v2 bundle. I found it to be so "nasal" and stuffy sounding to the point of being almost unusable and would like to know how much it's improved in this update.


----------



## Nando Florestan (Nov 8, 2021)

Daniel Taylor said:


> Oboe would be much appreciated, it's in my opinion the weakest of the v2 bundle


I hope you didn't miss the usage tip in the previous page. Also, I believe it will sound a lot better without its own reverb and with a good dose of early reflections added.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 8, 2021)

Daniel Taylor said:


> Any more demo's of the Oboe would be much appreciated, it's in my opinion the weakest of the v2 bundle. I found it to be so "nasal" and stuffy sounding to the point of being almost unusable and would like to know how much it's improved in this update.


Here is a very short audio test of the SWAM Oboe V3.

I used Oboe 2 in this test, there are six oboe models to choose from, each has a different character, added a bit of Reverb, and High-Pass EQ , did not use a breath controller, did some automation of vibrato, expr, formant. 

View attachment SWAM Oboe V3 Short Test.mp3


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 8, 2021)

Here is another short Test using SWAM V3 Oboe (Oboe 1) this time. with some string accompaniment. The Oboe is mixed a bit too loud for this mix, but I thought this way you hear it clearer. 

View attachment SWAM Oboe V3 Short Test V2.mp3


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2021)

Hi,

Listening carefully to the short Oboe demos I posted, I don't think I did the best job (for my taste), I kind of rushed the production a bit to show them, I'm planning on posting more demos of SWAM V3 Oboe, that will most likely sound better, and have better overall performance/dynamics control, using a Breath Controller.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Thorny (Nov 11, 2021)

Thorny said:


> I just bought the upgrade and gave it a quick test with a piece I am working on at the moment. I am a newbie, just bought the whole package in June and loving the difference over the VSL libraries I was using.
> 
> i do not use the instruments with a controller, I just write directly in Logic and twiddle velocity and CC curves in automation, and articulation in the Piano Roll. I am determined to use my new M1 Pro 14 as a free-standing composition workstation, with the ability to hear reasonably good performance as I go. (Side note: all of the SWAM instruments are working just fine in Mac OS 12.0.1 on an M1 Pro processor.)
> 
> ...


I found out why the tenor seemed quieter at first. On the tenor and alto sax, the “breathy PPP” in the advanced setting was set to on for both of those saxes but nothing else. With them on, I found that there was really no effective pianissimo range at all below 30-40 in expression. When I turned it off, both have a nice range of expression right down to the low end.

AM support said that you can define your own expression curves to account for that, but I have yet to play with it.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 12, 2021)




----------



## muziksculp (Nov 12, 2021)

I'm hoping that the SWAM V3 Flutes go on sale for BF.


----------



## doctoremmet (Nov 12, 2021)

@muziksculp Are you, like, *filthy* rich?


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 12, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> @muziksculp Are you, like, *filthy* rich?


I stopped having meals. 

Donations are accepted.


----------



## Noeticus (Nov 12, 2021)

Don't forget about Patreon. They have meal tickets now.


----------



## Gingham Jones (Nov 12, 2021)

muziksculp said:


>



Dude, that's f-ing awesome! How are you feeling about v3 vs v2? I didn't notice much difference but I'm open to being convinced upgrading is the right thing to do :D


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 13, 2021)

So, anyone know if Audio Modeling will have a BF Sale ? or they don't do that ?


----------



## Markrs (Nov 13, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> So, anyone know if Audio Modeling will have a BF Sale ? or they don't do that ?


Here is the 16th Nov 2020 Black Friday deal they had









Black Friday SWAM Bundles Promo! | Audio Modeling


We are glad to announce that any SWAM Bundle is discounted now until November 27 EXTENDED UNTIL MONDAY 30th! The SWAM Bundles




audiomodeling.com







> We are glad to announce that any SWAM Bundle* is discounted now until November 27 EXTENDED UNTIL MONDAY 30th!*
> The SWAM Bundles are highly appreciated by our customers because they provide a convenient price. With the Black Friday offer, you can have a HUGE additional discount!
> *SWAM ALL IN BUNDLE: € 1050 / $ 1050 – € 1400 / $ 1400 (Value of € 2150/ $ 2150)*
> *SWAM SOLO WOODWINDS BUNDLE: € 525 / $ 525 – € 750 / $ 750 (Value of € 920/ $ 920)*
> ...


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 13, 2021)

Hi @Markrs ,

Thanks for the feedback. Hopefully they will announce their BF sales soon this year. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Markrs (Nov 14, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Markrs ,
> 
> Thanks for the feedback. Hopefully they will announce their BF sales soon this year.
> 
> ...


The Black Friday SWAM sale started today (not yet live on thier website), but is live on 3rd parties like JRRshop. However the Woodwinds have been excluded from the sale.






JRRshop.com | Manufacturers


Shop by Brands, Shop by Manufacturers




www.jrrshop.com


----------



## Tralen (Nov 15, 2021)

Markrs said:


> The Black Friday SWAM sale started today (not yet live on thier website), but is live on 3rd parties like JRRshop. However the Woodwinds have been excluded from the sale.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excluding the woodwinds is... evil.

There is still the "All Bundle" discounted, but the price is beyond absurd if one is looking just for the woodwinds.


----------



## FKVStudio (Nov 15, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Excluding the woodwinds is... evil.
> 
> There is still the "All Bundle" discounted, but the price is beyond absurd if one is looking just for the woodwinds.


From what I see on my account, they also exclude updates to complete the All Bundle. Truly disappointing.


----------



## Pianist (Nov 15, 2021)

FKVStudio said:


> From what I see on my account, they also exclude updates to complete the All Bundle. Truly disappointing.





Tralen said:


> Excluding the woodwinds is... evil.
> 
> There is still the "All Bundle" discounted, but the price is beyond absurd if one is looking just for the woodwinds.





Tralen said:


> Excluding the woodwinds is... evil.
> 
> There is still the "All Bundle" discounted, but the price is beyond absurd if one is looking just for the woodwinds.


Well, they've just came out with the Version 3 of the Woodwinds, probably will not put them on sale right away. Maybe on "Black Friday"-Friday?


----------



## FKVStudio (Nov 15, 2021)

Pianist said:


> Well, they've just came out with the Version 3 of the Woodwinds, probably will not put them on sale right away. Maybe on "Black Friday"-Friday?


To me is that I only need the "Solo Strings" to complete the Bundle. I already have the Woodwinds V3.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 15, 2021)

Bummer, I was hoping they have a BF discount for Flutes, and Saxes.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 16, 2021)

So SWAM Flutes V3, and Saxes V3 are $250. each, no discount for BF ?


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 17, 2021)

Hi,

SWAM Woodwinds V3: Saxes, vs Flutes, Which one of these do you think Audio Modeling has done a better/more accurate emulation of ? 

Basically, I'm thinking about getting one of one of them, although sadly neither one is on sale, the flutes are imho. more useful, but I'm not sure they have done a very good, and accurate emulation of Flutes, on the other hand, I'm liking the Saxes, they sound more convincing in the videos, but in terms of usage, they are more limited scope wise for my needs. So not a very easy choice. 

Which one of these two would you pick, or recommend ?

If you already own either one of them, or both, your feedback would be very valuable. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## Noeticus (Nov 17, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> SWAM Woodwinds V3: Saxes, vs Flutes, Which one of these do you think Audio Modeling has done a better/more accurate emulation of ?
> 
> ...


I like the flutes (but I really only use them for effects work), but perhaps they will go on sale in a few days...?


----------



## Thorny (Nov 17, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> SWAM Woodwinds V3: Saxes, vs Flutes, Which one of these do you think Audio Modeling has done a better/more accurate emulation of ?
> 
> ...


I have played with the flute and the tenor sax. I think they are both really good but take some fiddling to get the best sound. Have you considered getting a demo license? You can use them for at least a couple of weeks that way.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 17, 2021)

Thorny said:


> I have played with the flute and the tenor sax. I think they are both really good but take some fiddling to get the best sound. Have you considered getting a demo license? You can use them for at least a couple of weeks that way.


Thanks, I didn't know about the demo license. 

OK, so would you use the Flutes in an orchestral setting ? or do you think they are better suited for other Genres ? i.e. Folk, New Age, Jazz, Chill, ..etc. 

Since I have several woodwind libraries that have good flutes to be used in an orchestral context, I was leaning more towards the Saxes. Although since they are not on sale, and I don't need to rush to buy the Saxes, I could delay this until I think I need to use some Sax solos in my project.


----------



## Thorny (Nov 17, 2021)

I am not seeing a link on their website. Send an email to [email protected] and ask for a demo license. That is how I got mine. I use them all in a more classicalcontext but I think they would work well in other modes as well.


----------



## Virtual Virgin (Nov 17, 2021)

I think the flutes are more realistic than the saxes in both a classical and jazz context. 
The saxes, especially for jazz have some major weak points- the legato transitions sound very synthy. Bends and glissandos are completely cartoonish, and in my opinion should be avoided when realism is a high priority.


----------



## Virtual Virgin (Nov 18, 2021)

Rather annoyed with the new layout. Years of playing something and knowing where to find certain parameters for quick adjustment is big deal to workflow. I am not a fan of changing the locations and windows- learn to update them while retaining familiarity of the previous aesthetic. Also, rather disappointed that there is no quick switch for breath control mode. You have to manually set CC2 to expression. C'mon guys! Know your market! Breath controller right out of the box!


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> I like the flutes (but I really only use them for effects work), but perhaps they will go on sale in a few days...?


Effects Work ? I wouldn't spend $250. on Physically Modelled flutes that are supposed to sound very realistic to use them for FX Work. Sorry, what do you mean by effects work ?


----------



## Noeticus (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Effects Work ? I wouldn't spend $250. on Physically Modelled flutes that are supposed to sound very realistic to use them for FX Work. Sorry, what do you mean by effects work ?


I sometimes need fully controllable glissandi for polyphonic (scary) tonal clusters (Micropolyphony). 

SWAM allows basically full control of pitch, the one things really missing in sample libraries. And, yes, I know real flutes don't do smooth glissando.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 19, 2021)

Listening to this video, I'm tempted to get the SWAM V3 Flutes.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 19, 2021)

This one is more Jazzy (SWAM Flute V3)


----------



## Tralen (Nov 19, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> This one is more Jazzy (SWAM Flute V3)



Those examples are so much better than the official videos.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 19, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Those examples are so much better than the official videos.


Yes, I agree, and tells me these SWAM V3 Flutes are very good, and I shouldn't rush to judge them based on the official videos. I wonder if the same applies to the SWAM V3 Saxes ?


----------



## John Longley (Nov 19, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Yes, I agree, and tells me these SWAM V3 Flutes are very good, and I shouldn't rush to judge them based on the official videos. I wonder if the same applies to the SWAM V3 Saxes ?


I think the main issue with the official videos is he absolutely smashes the keys with high velocity and his runs, while well played, have no internal dynamics. So they just sound abrasive and static. These two examples you shared are fantastic


----------



## Tralen (Nov 19, 2021)

John Longley said:


> I think the main issue with the official videos is he absolutely smashes the keys with high velocity and his runs, while well played, have no internal dynamics. So they just sound abrasive and static. These two examples you shared are fantastic


Yes, exactly right. Not only he plays like a keyboardist (with no breath controller!), he gives almost no room for the instruments to resonate like in muziksculp's videos.


----------



## philthevoid (Nov 19, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Those examples are so much better than the official videos.


SWAM's official videos are the only reason I still hesitate to buy their products! Talk about great marketing... 
Well described by John above. These instruments are capable of so much more, yet if you only watch their videos, it doesn't feel that way.
Thankfully, there are a few much better demos made by other people out there.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 30, 2021)

Any idea if Audio Modeling will have a XMas Discount on their SWAM V3 Flutes, and Saxes ? 

Sadly they were not discounted for BF.


----------



## 98bpm (Nov 30, 2021)

Thorny said:


> I just bought the upgrade and gave it a quick test with a piece I am working on at the moment. I am a newbie, just bought the whole package in June and loving the difference over the VSL libraries I was using.
> 
> i do not use the instruments with a controller, I just write directly in Logic and twiddle velocity and CC curves in automation, and articulation in the Piano Roll. I am determined to use my new M1 Pro 14 as a free-standing composition workstation, with the ability to hear reasonably good performance as I go. (Side note: all of the SWAM instruments are working just fine in Mac OS 12.0.1 on an M1 Pro processor.)
> 
> ...


Could you answer these questions for me? I'd really appreciate it.
1. Does version 3 replace/overwrite version 2 or do you still have access to the old version?
2. Since version 3 has an EQ on board, are the differences in tone you're hearing on the saxophone because of the EQ or is it actually different completely raw?

I'm still trying to decide if I want to update/upgrade.

Thanks


----------



## Virtual Virgin (Nov 30, 2021)

98bpm said:


> Could you answer these questions for me? I'd really appreciate it.
> 1. Does version 3 replace/overwrite version 2 or do you still have access to the old version?
> 2. Since version 3 has an EQ on board, are the differences in tone you're hearing on the saxophone because of the EQ or is it actually different completely raw?
> 
> ...


1. V3 is a completely new plugin and will have to be instantiated manually on all of your projects with V2 if you wish to upgrade them. V3 does not read from previous V2 settings, so you will have to tweak those settings yourself. V3 does not overwrite V2 so when you open all of your projects using V2 it will open just as it did before (using the V2 plugins until you change them). 

2. I do not use the EQ on the plugin itself (if I need eq I will use plugins for that).
All of the default patches I have opened when opening the plugin do not have EQ applied, but I can't account for what demos or patches others are hearing. That said, I don't find a marked difference in timbre quality form V2 to V3. This is only with a couple hours of adding it to my template however.


----------



## 98bpm (Nov 30, 2021)

> That said, I don't find a marked difference in timbre quality form V2 to V3


Thanks for the reply. May I ask, if there's no real improvement in timbral quality, what do you consider to make this worth getting?


----------



## Kevin63101 (Nov 30, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Any idea if Audio Modeling will have a XMas Discount on their SWAM V3 Flutes, and Saxes ?
> 
> Sadly they were not discounted for BF.


Who knows. Last year they had a discount on individual titles in December but no discounts on bundles.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 30, 2021)

Kevin63101 said:


> Who knows. Last year they had a discount on individual titles in December but no discounts on bundles.


Thanks for the feedback. That would be very nice. I don't plan to buy a bundle, but either the SWAM V3 Flutes, or V3 Saxes, I still haven't made up my mind.


----------



## DANIELE (Nov 30, 2021)

I finally found what is causing the popping and crackling issues with my swam instruments. Apparently is caused by a service of the nVidia video driver, the service is NVDisplay.ContainerLocalSystem, if I restart the service the problem disappear, I found a similar thing here: https://superuser.com/questions/1618748/nvidia-container-causing-audio-popping-and-explorer-lag

but it has no solution actually. I was a long run but I finally managed to find it.

If I disable the service I'm not able to reach the nVidia control panel anymore, I'm also thinking it isn't happening with all the VGAs but only with the RTX 3XXX series. If you look at the link I postet that user has an RTX 3080 and I have an RTX 3090.

This is why I was able to solve the problem by reinstalling the video driver without rebooting the PC. Is there any other nVidia owner out there that could confirm what I found?

Thank you.

Edit here's another link from the same user, there are some answers about it under the post:


----------



## Tralen (Nov 30, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> I finally found what is causing the popping and crackling issues with my swam instruments. Apparently is caused by a service of the nVidia video driver, the service is NVDisplay.ContainerLocalSystem, in I restart the service the problem disappear, I found a similar thing here: https://superuser.com/questions/1618748/nvidia-container-causing-audio-popping-and-explorer-lag
> 
> but it has no solution actually. I was a long run but I finally managed to find it.
> 
> ...


Restarting the service fixes it? You could add something like this to a .bat file and leave it on your desktop to quick restart.

`net stop NVDisplay.ContainerLocalSystem && timeout /t 5 && net start NVDisplay.ContainerLocalSystem`

(The 5s timeout is because I don't know how long the service needs to stop.)


----------



## DANIELE (Nov 30, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Restarting the service fixes it? You could add something like this to a .bat file and leave it on your desktop to quick restart.
> 
> `net stop NVDisplay.ContainerLocalSystem && timeout /t 5 && net start NVDisplay.ContainerLocalSystem`
> 
> (The 5s timeout is because I don't know how long the service needs to stop.)


Yeah, it seems it does and I'm just writing a batch file just to this, you read my mind. 

I hope they will found a better solution anyway, because I'll need to do it a lot. I'll do more testing but finally I'm sure it is not an hardware fault.


----------



## Tralen (Nov 30, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> Yeah, it seems it does and I'm just writing a batch file just to this, you read my mind.
> 
> I hope they will found a better solution anyway, because I'll need to do it a lot. I'll do more testing but finally I'm sure it is not an hardware fault.


If you need to do it frequently, it might be better to split the .bat file and have one to shut down and another to start the service after you finish working.


----------



## DANIELE (Nov 30, 2021)

Tralen said:


> If you need to do it frequently, it might be better to split the .bat file and have one to shut down and another to start the service after you finish working.


I have to test how many times I have to do it, tomorrow I'll do some other tests to see if it keep happening frequently.

I'll keep you updated.


----------



## Virtual Virgin (Nov 30, 2021)

98bpm said:


> Thanks for the reply. May I ask, if there's no real improvement in timbral quality, what do you consider to make this worth getting?


From my perspective, given that my main template woodwinds are SWAM I wanted to buy the update to V3 at the introductory price on the good faith that there will be many updates over time. V2 saw incremental improvements for some time, so I hope they continue that trend with V3. There also seem to be more parameters for breath control this time around so I will be tweaking that to see how it affects playability.

It also may be that I will hear the improvements better as I spend more time with them. It's hard to test (quickly) every aspect of how the timbre changes contextually for musical purposes.


----------



## youngpokie (Dec 1, 2021)

Virtual Virgin said:


> It also may be that I will hear the improvements better as I spend more time with them.


Your updates and impressions as you explore them would be very helpful. I have some modelled woodwinds in my template as well and was really hoping v3 would be a significant step forward...


----------



## Virtual Virgin (Dec 3, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> Your updates and impressions as you explore them would be very helpful. I have some modelled woodwinds in my template as well and was really hoping v3 would be a significant step forward...


After a few more hours with them I can say there are improvements in the clarinet and bassoon tones. One thing that has not improved however is that the alternate models of each instrument still sound like they are derived from analysis of one instrument source with only superficial modifications made to generate the alternates. This becomes more apparent when playing ensembles of them in unison. 2-3 flutes, clarinets or bassoons are very phasey when played together and lack independence even when many parameters have been tweaked (attacks/formants/harm structure etc.). Their behaviour is too matched.


----------



## Markrs (Dec 10, 2021)




----------



## youngpokie (Dec 10, 2021)

Markrs said:


>



This is very nice, but I'm not sure I would describe it as classical. As I see it, in classical context a sax is played a bit more like a clarinet, without any vibrato at all and with a very controlled sound in attacks. Here the attacks are very pronounced and jazzy, with clear vibrato at note endings (like classical trumpet would do it). Still, an interesting video!


----------



## Markrs (Dec 10, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> This is very nice, but I'm not sure I would describe it as classical. As I see it, in classical context a sax is played a bit more like a clarinet, without any vibrato at all and with a very controlled sound in attacks. Here the attacks are very pronounced and jazzy, with clear vibrato at note endings (like classical trumpet would do it). Still, an interesting video!


Very good point, I do like the sound, though I am a bit of a fan of physical modelling


----------



## youngpokie (Dec 10, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I am a bit of a fan of physical modelling


Me too! I have a couple of SWAM instruments and even though they are not easy to deal with, it's a different level altogether than just switching articulations...


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 10, 2021)

I'm still hoping they put the SWAM V3 Saxes, and Flutes on Sale this month.


----------



## Ben H (Dec 10, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I'm still hoping they put the SWAM V3 Saxes, and Flutes on Sale this month.


I doubt they will, so soon after the update.

It's a shame you missed the sale that they just had on them, before the release of the new version.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 10, 2021)

Ben H said:


> I doubt they will, so soon after the update.
> 
> It's a shame you missed the sale that they just had on them, before the release of the new version.


I guess, I will have to wait. But I still have a bit of hope.


----------



## 98bpm (Dec 19, 2021)

I just updated the SWAM Saxophones to V3 and the standalone version is working. But I'm having an issue in Cubase where the instruments will load, but I cannot edit anything. When I move any knobs or sliders, they move back to their default positions. Has anybody else seen this behavior?


----------



## MrTopo! (Dec 20, 2021)

98bpm said:


> I just updated the SWAM Saxophones to V3 and the standalone version is working. But I'm having an issue in Cubase where the instruments will load, but I cannot edit anything. When I move any knobs or sliders, they move back to their default positions. Has anybody else seen this behavior?


Same problem with the last update 3.0.1 and VST3. With VST works well.


----------



## 98bpm (Dec 20, 2021)

Just confirmed that it works fine in Logic Pro X. Unfortunately, i'm not accustomed to this DAW.


----------



## lelepar (Dec 21, 2021)

Hi everyone, we acknowledge the issue with VST3 in Steinberg platforms (Cubase, Nuendo, not sure about Dorico) only: the parameters fall back to the default value.
We have already fixed the issue, an update will be released very soon.
We are sorry for the inconvenience, our tests passed on our platforms, but the final automatic build broke something.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 21, 2021)

Hi @lelepar ,

Any chance you will have a special Christmas discount on the SWAM V3 Saxes, and V3 Flutes ? 

Thanks.


----------



## lelepar (Dec 21, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @lelepar ,
> 
> Any chance you will have a special Christmas discount on the SWAM V3 Saxes, and V3 Flutes ?
> 
> Thanks.


We have not planned any offer, I'm sorry.
Best!


----------



## lelepar (Dec 21, 2021)

98bpm said:


> I just updated the SWAM Saxophones to V3 and the standalone version is working. But I'm having an issue in Cubase where the instruments will load, but I cannot edit anything. When I move any knobs or sliders, they move back to their default positions. Has anybody else seen this behavior?


@98bpm here you can find the Beta (build 4663): it fixes the issue in Cubase and Nuendo. It seems it doesn't fix it for Dorico. Anyway, you can try these for your case.


----------



## 98bpm (Dec 21, 2021)

lelepar said:


> @98bpm here you can find the Beta (build 4663): it fixes the issue in Cubase and Nuendo. It seems it doesn't fix it for Dorico. Anyway, you can try these for your case.


It works now in Cubase. To my ears, it seems a little quicker in response too, but that may just be me being pumped up that it's working. will test more later. Thanks for the fast update. Cheers!


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 22, 2021)

HI,

Given there is no special discount this holiday season on SWAM Flutes V3, or SWAM Saxes V3, I might just get one of these two, but I'm having a hard time deciding.

Here is my train of thought about these two libraries. I liked some of the demos/videos of the Saxes, but haven't heard any demos that impressed me of the Flutes. Although the Flutes will most likely be more useful for me, since I rarely would write for Sax, Jazz, Big Band, or other related genres that needs saxes, but I do think they could be valuable if I decide, or need to write music that needs a good Solo Sax, or Sax Ensemble. 

The Flutes, would make more sense, but I haven't heard any demos, watched videos that impressed me so far. Also, how do the Flutes V3 compare to more traditional orchestral Sample Library Flutes, like i.e. VSL Synchron Flute, OT Berlin Flute, CineWinds Flute, ..etc. ? Would you use the SWAM V3 Flutes in orchestral music, or do you think they are more suited for other genres, like Folk, Pop, ..etc. ? 

Those who have the Flutes V3, or Saxes V3 or both, which one would you recommend I get Flutes V3, or Saxes V3 based on what I wrote above ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## Tralen (Dec 22, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> HI,
> 
> Given there is no special discount this holiday season on SWAM Flutes V3, or SWAM Saxes V3, I might just get one of these two, but I'm having a hard time deciding.
> 
> ...


Quoting for emphasis, as I have exactly the same question as you.


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## muziksculp (Dec 22, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Quoting for emphasis, as I have exactly the same question as you.


This should be fun, Let's see what we both end up getting


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## muziksculp (Dec 22, 2021)

Here is one SWAM V3 Flute video I found, but still not crazy about the timbre of the flute.


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## Tralen (Dec 22, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Here is one SWAM V3 Flute video I found, but still not crazy about the timbre of the flute.



It seems too clean to me. I would like to see someone playing with the formant CC like was showed with the Oboe.


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## muziksculp (Dec 22, 2021)

Tralen said:


> It seems too clean to me. I would like to see someone playing with the formant CC like was showed with the Oboe.


Yes, I agree. It also lacks a breathyness, or a sparkle that a solo flute has, it sounds a bit too dull/flat.

Sadly, there are no YT videos showing the flutes in-depth, or a very good demo, that makes me go wow. 

I would still grab my other libraries for a flute.


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## Nando Florestan (Dec 23, 2021)

I am with you, the flute is not the best for an orchestral sound, shines in other genres, and the saxes I do like.


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## Dani Donadi (Dec 23, 2021)

Here's a quick test for the Alto Flute (from memory, not too sure about the chords).
I really like the tweak-ability and the fact that you can bake it in any room with the right reverb.
It does take a lot of work but the result is to my ears, better than any other sample libraries, especially for lead parts and solos.


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## Tralen (Dec 23, 2021)

Dani Donadi said:


> Here's a quick test for the Alto Flute (from memory, not too sure about the chords).
> I really like the tweak-ability and the fact that you can bake it in any room with the right reverb.
> It does take a lot of work but the result is to my ears, better than any other sample libraries, especially for lead parts and solos.


Thanks for the example!

I enjoyed this alto flute more than the previous C flute, but I still find it too sanitized. Obviously, the piece seems to call for it, so very well done.


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## muziksculp (Dec 23, 2021)

Dani Donadi said:


> Here's a quick test for the Alto Flute (from memory, not too sure about the chords).
> I really like the tweak-ability and the fact that you can bake it in any room with the right reverb.
> It does take a lot of work but the result is to my ears, better than any other sample libraries, especially for lead parts and solos.


Hi @Dani Donadi ,

Thank You very much for sharing your SWAM V3 Alto Flute demo. It sounds more breathy/sparkly here for sure, the only part that bothers me a tiny bit about it is the amount of vibrato in the sustains, it is a bit too heavy handed for my taste, but that's a matter of taste. 

How do you like the Flute ? does it also have a breathy/sparkly timbre to it ? 

You have succeeded in increasing my GAS pressure for SWAM V3 Flutes.  

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Dani Donadi (Dec 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Dani Donadi ,
> 
> Thank You very much for sharing your SWAM V3 Alto Flute demo. It sounds more breathy/sparkly here for sure, the only part that bothers me a tiny bit about it is the amount of vibrato in the sustains, it is a bit too heavy handed for my taste, but that's a matter of taste.
> 
> ...


Thank you, The Flute is just as good to me, I just couldn't think of a tune I remembered and was able to play that features it. I really like breathy flutes with heavy vibrato, but that's all controllable with CC1 ...etc. My controller's faders are short and that's one of the reasons why it's a bit too much vibrato, I can see that. these instruments are so customizable, but it takes work.

Just a quick story:
I remember recording a real clarinet in a great sounding studio a few years back, then my client requested to change a couple of notes in the melody, I was on a tight budget and didn't want to re-book the player/studio. I tried to make those changes using the SWAM Clarinet, in and out of the real thing, it took a lot of tweaking but to this day, I can't tell you what section was punched-in as the blend is so seamless, I played it to all my classical musicians friends and none of them got the same result. The tweaking and room matching was insane though. 

Dani


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## muziksculp (Dec 23, 2021)

Dani Donadi said:


> Thank you, The Flute is just as good to me, I just couldn't think of a tune I remembered and was able to play that features it. I really like breathy flutes with heavy vibrato, but that's all controllable with CC1 ...etc. My controller's faders are short and that's one of the reasons why it's a bit too much vibrato, I can see that. these instruments are so customizable, but it takes work.
> 
> Just a quick story:
> I remember recording a real clarinet in a great sounding studio a few years back, then my client requested to change a couple of notes in the melody, I was on a tight budget and didn't want to re-book the player/studio. I tried to make those changes using the SWAM Clarinet, in and out of the real thing, it took a lot of tweaking but to this day, I can't tell you what section was punched-in as the blend is so seamless, I played it to all my classical musicians friends and none of them got the same result. The tweaking and room matching was insane though.
> ...


Thank You for the additional feedback.  

Actually, a good breath-controller would be ideal for the Flutes.


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## muziksculp (Dec 23, 2021)




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## muziksculp (Dec 23, 2021)




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## David Cuny (Dec 23, 2021)

I was disappointed by the prior release of the soprano flute - I was hoping it would have a more woody tone in the lower register, and it was just... bland.

Perhaps the next release will fix this. YMMV


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## muziksculp (Dec 23, 2021)

David Cuny said:


> I was disappointed by the prior release of the soprano flute - I was hoping it would have a more woody tone in the lower register, and it was just... bland.
> 
> Perhaps the next release will fix this. YMMV


But I'm not interested in the prior release, I'm interested in the new SWAM V3 Flutes. I'm guessing they are improved over the older version 2. Flutes.


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## muziksculp (Dec 23, 2021)

David Cuny said:


> Perhaps the next release will fix this. YMMV


The next release, you mean V3, which has been released ? or .... ?


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## David Cuny (Dec 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> The next release, you mean V3, which has been released ? or .... ?


Sorry. 

I meant, the next release I buy, which will be v3.


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## muziksculp (Dec 23, 2021)

I'm leaning more towards buying the SWAM V3 Flutes instead of the Saxes, mainly because I don't write music for saxes, but use Flutes much more. 

So, it would make more sense for me to get the Flutes, even though I like the way the Saxes sound, but I have to pick one of the two, at $250. each library is not spare change, and since they don't plan on offering any discounts this Holiday Season, which is kind of disappointing, I think the Flutes should be a good addition. Plus, I already have their double reeds V3, and Solo Strings V3.


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## doctoremmet (Dec 24, 2021)

I honestly don’t get why you’d want to get any of them at all. Why even consider the saxes if you basically just say you do not have any need for them? Why get the flutes if you don’t find their sound overly convincing? It’s not like you don’t have any woodwind libraries at your disposal? Nor any other new new things. At this point it just makes me wonder what’s driving you here… it sounds like you are basically hoping for others to convince you you need any of these instruments, while your responses time and time again indicate you are not truly convinced? Not a critique but and honest observation Tarek. And why not just wait for the next sale opportunity?

Edit; I regret having posted this. It came from a good place, but of course as usual what the fuck’s the use. This entire forum is about buying new shit. Proceed doing that and have a nice 2022. Cheers.


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## Nando Florestan (Dec 24, 2021)

@doctoremmet I was surprised to see you profess this philosophy. I have seen you buy so much stuff here this year that I figured you were a collector, since you can't possibly have used all that... Not a provocation or judgment either - just curious.


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## doctoremmet (Dec 24, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> @doctoremmet I was surprised to see you profess this philosophy. I have seen you buy so much stuff here this year that I figured you were a collector, since you can't possibly have used all that... Not a provocation or judgment either - just curious.


Of course a valid point. But I can honestly say I have purchased those things because I thought I might enjoy them. I have never tried to look for reasons to buy anything, and it appeared to me this was the case here. Most of my purchases were of course completely senseless, but if you’d take the time to read some of my own acknowledgements, you’d likely agree with me that I am the first to admit that.

So my post above was a mere observation, not judgment, nor any disrespect intended.

By the way, as far as at least the synths go, I have used all of them. My main hobby is programming patches - which is something completely different than composing or making music. The actual music I do make usually involves me just sitting behind a piano 

I also hardly ever address other people’s wants, needs, preferences or whatever on here. I am glad I did once and Nando immediately calls BS. Thanks. I’ll refrain from that in the future and shall go back to my obvious mere hoarding.


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## muziksculp (Dec 24, 2021)

Hi @doctoremmet ,

You have a valid observation, so I will try to shed some light on why I'm interested in these SWAM Woodwinds Libraries.  

Well, I play woodwind instruments, the real ones. Mainly Flutes of various types, classical, and from around the world. I also collect them, and have a nice collection that I got over the past four decades. I don't have/play reed woodwinds, but I have the SWAM double reeds. 

With regards to keyed woodwinds, like the flute, I play left-handed, so I purchased a special Left-Handed flute so I can play it, this was not possible until a few years ago, since none of the flute companies made a left-handed classical silver flute. So, this was a big deal for me. But they don't make a Left-Handed Alto Flute, or any other modern woodwinds, i.e. Oboe, or English horn. So, having the SWAM double reeds was a very good option. 

The SWAM Flutes will surely be useful, and interesting for me, since they include the Piccolo, C-Flute, Alto Flute, Base Flute. and I can use a Breath-Controller to play them, and also experiment with the sonic possibilities the SWAM W engine offers.

My interest in the SWAM Saxes is mainly because I like what I hear, and I won't ever be playing a Left-Handed Saxophone, so this is one of the reasons I'm interested in the Saxes Library, but since I don't write for Saxes, or Sax Ensembles, Jazz, Big-Band, or these types of genres, it's not a priority for me. If the price was half what it is now, I would have picked both the Flutes and Saxes. 

Plus, I should add that I do not have any Physically Modeled FLutes, or Sax Instruments, so i.e. the SWAM FLutes will be my first serious PM flute collection. Which is very interesting for me musically. 

Anyways.. I hope I answered your curiosity about why I'm interested in these SWAM libraries, eventhough I have traditional orchestral woodwind libraries from i.e. SA, OT, CineSamples, ...etc. 

Have a Great and Healthy Holiday Season, Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year 🎅🎄✨

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Nando Florestan (Dec 24, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Nando immediately calls BS. Thanks. I’ll refrain from that in the future and shall go back to my obvious mere hoarding.


I really didn't mean it like that, I am sorry I wasn't able to express myself better, and you are right, you were trying to help and to understand better what moves the other person and their motives will be totally different from yours or mine so there's no "philosophy being professed", you were trying to wear someone else's shoes in order to help them. Please don't refrain from helping others just because of my idiocy.


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## muziksculp (Dec 24, 2021)

OK, I finally made up my mind, Purchased the *SWAM V3 Flutes*


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## Tralen (Dec 24, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> OK, I finally made up my mind, Purchased the *SWAM V3 Flutes*


Woohoo, hope you enjoy it!

I'm leaning more to the saxes at the moment. I have plenty material written for them and there is no way I can get a good sax for $250 over here.


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## muziksculp (Dec 24, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Woohoo, hope you enjoy it!
> 
> I'm leaning more to the saxes at the moment. I have plenty material written for them and there is no way I can get a good sax for $250 over here.


Hi @Tralen ,

Thanks. 

If you write more for saxes, then that makes sense to lean towards them, and I like the way the SWAM V3 Saxes sound. I just wish they had them both on discount, sadly they don't. 

I will post some feedback about the Flutes when I have a chance to use them, I haven't installed them yet. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Gingham Jones (Jan 13, 2022)

I still would like to know if anyone can tell any difference between the v2 and v3 woodwinds. Like, sure if you didn't own and SWAM instruments before then I'm sure they sound awesome and v3 is totally worth it. But in my short playing around with the demo, I didn't find any reason to upgrade other than the new UI. Some don't like it but I think it's way better than the old one. Also, the clarinets were noticeably brighter. Everything else sounded the same which even checked out with a spectrum analyzer. I wish I would've made a couple videos when I had the demo but I was too lazy then :/.


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## lelepar (Jan 13, 2022)

Gingham Jones said:


> I still would like to know if anyone can tell any difference between the v2 and v3 woodwinds. Like, sure if you didn't own and SWAM instruments before then I'm sure they sound awesome and v3 is totally worth it. But in my short playing around with the demo, I didn't find any reason to upgrade other than the new UI. Some don't like it but I think it's way better than the old one. Also, the clarinets were noticeably brighter. Everything else sounded the same which even checked out with a spectrum analyzer. I wish I would've made a couple videos when I had the demo but I was too lazy then :/.


This FAQ lists all the features, compared to v2: https://kb.audiomodeling.com/en/c/s...olo-woodwinds-v3-features-prices-and-upgrades

The Timbral Correction feature alone, worths the upgrade, since you can really tweak the timbre as desired.


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## mozart999uk (Jan 21, 2022)

Gingham Jones said:


> I still would like to know if anyone can tell any difference between the v2 and v3 woodwinds. Like, sure if you didn't own and SWAM instruments before then I'm sure they sound awesome and v3 is totally worth it. But in my short playing around with the demo, I didn't find any reason to upgrade other than the new UI. Some don't like it but I think it's way better than the old one. Also, the clarinets were noticeably brighter. Everything else sounded the same which even checked out with a spectrum analyzer. I wish I would've made a couple videos when I had the demo but I was too lazy then :/.


I've just done a test of the bassoon V2 and v3. I managed to get V3 to sound almost identical to V2 by duplicating the settings. Some aren't quite the same as the numbering / scale is different. The only 2 things that would make me upgrade, are the larger gui and the breathy PP layer.

There's still something very synthy about the higher register in the bassoon. I've been lucky enough to work with a few really good bassoon players and I went back to listen to some of the recordings I'd made and for me, it's the higher registers where the differences really become obvious.

I've attached two files, to show similarities: one of V2 and one V3

As you say, the clarinets are definitely brighter. I find the V2 clarinet very thin anyway (as if the reed was too thin) and the V3 clarinet only makes that worse. There's no "woodiness", except maybe down in the lower register. Good for trad jazz and early swing - not so good for classical.

Haven't tried the saxes yet.....

Don't own the flutes but have a demo licence, so I'll try them out.


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## lelepar (Jan 21, 2022)

mozart999uk said:


> I've just done a test of the bassoon V2 and v3. I managed to get V3 to sound almost identical to V2 by duplicating the settings. Some aren't quite the same as the numbering / scale is different. The only 2 things that would make me upgrade, are the larger gui and the breathy PP layer.
> 
> There's still something very synthy about the higher register in the bassoon. I've been lucky enough to work with a few really good bassoon players and I went back to listen to some of the recordings I'd made and for me, it's the higher registers where the differences really become obvious.
> 
> ...


When used in classical context, you should limit the Expression range and probably the Velocity range as well, as the range offered is there to provide "room" for any style.
Also, I still suggest to use the Timbral Correction feature (Timbre section) to surgically reduce higher harmonics that are responsible for such "brightness".
I assume that you tried all the provided timbral footprints (i.e. "Instruments"), e.g. Warm, Smooth, and also acted on the EQ (FX section).


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## mozart999uk (Jan 21, 2022)

lelepar said:


> When used in classical context, you MUST limit the Expression range and probably the Velocity range as well, as the range offered is there to provide "room" for any style.
> Also, I still suggest to use the Timbral Correction feature (Timbre section) to surgically reduce higher harmonics that are responsible for such "brightness".
> I assume that you tried all the provided timbral footprints (i.e. "Instruments"), e.g. Warm, Smooth, and also acted on the EQ (FX section).


Thanks: I have tried all that . It's not "brightness" really as much as just the sound of someone playing a plastic clarinet with a thin reed. I'm married to a classical clarinettist (and play a bit myself) so I know a thing or two about it.

I also spent 10 years as a classical location recording engineer....


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## lelepar (Jan 21, 2022)

mozart999uk said:


> Thanks: I have tried all that . It's not "brightness" really as much as just the sound of someone playing a plastic clarinet with a thin reed. I'm married to a classical clarinettist (and play a bit myself) so I know a thing or two about it.


I have no doubt that you know how a clarinet should sound, I'm just trying to help you to identify all the parameters that can help in tweaking the sound.
SWAM is not a sample library, the sound can be changed a lot acting on different parameters.
Have you tried Formant? Harmonic Structure? Sub. Harm? Modal Resonance?


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## mozart999uk (Jan 21, 2022)

lelepar said:


> I have no doubt that you know how a clarinet should sound, I'm just trying to help you to identify all the parameters that can help in tweaking the sound.
> SWAM is not a sample library, the sound can be changed a lot acting on different parameters.
> Have you tried Formant? Harmonic Structure? Sub. Harm? Modal Resonance?


Thanks. I have yes.


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## lelepar (Jan 21, 2022)

mozart999uk said:


> Thanks. I have yes.


Do you have a reference (dry) sound? We will try to tweak the parameters and get closer to it.


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## mozart999uk (Jan 21, 2022)

lelepar said:


> Do you have a reference (dry) sound? We will try to tweak the parameters and get closer to it.


Thanks for the offer. I think it's unfair to pitch either samples or modeling against a real player in this situation so I'll knock something up with samples over the weekend and attach the audio and midi.


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## Leandro Gardini (Jan 21, 2022)

mozart999uk said:


> I've just done a test of the bassoon V2 and v3. I managed to get V3 to sound almost identical to V2 by duplicating the settings. Some aren't quite the same as the numbering / scale is different. The only 2 things that would make me upgrade, are the larger gui and the breathy PP layer.
> 
> There's still something very synthy about the higher register in the bassoon. I've been lucky enough to work with a few really good bassoon players and I went back to listen to some of the recordings I'd made and for me, it's the higher registers where the differences really become obvious.
> 
> ...


That's the first direct comparison I hear and they sound the same. It's hard to believe V3 was rebuilt from scratch.
The new GUI has more features for customization (that I have some doubts how useful they are) but I like the old one much more.


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## mozart999uk (Jan 21, 2022)

Leandro Gardini said:


> That's the first direct comparison I hear and they sound the same. It's hard to believe V3 was rebuilt from scratch.
> The new GUI has more features for customization (that I have some doubts how useful they are) but I like the old one much more.


As I was a/bing them I thought that I preferred one over the other but I think it was psychological ...they don't sum to mono so there are obviously variations going on under the hood....

I actually DO like the bassoon for the playability - far more expressive to write with than samples ..... I prefer the old gui too but I do like the size of the new one - or rather my aging eyes do


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## muziksculp (Jan 23, 2022)




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## mozart999uk (Jan 24, 2022)

muziksculp said:


>



Thank you so much for posting this. 👍😁 Speaking purely in terms of tone, this is the best I've heard the AM clarinet sound in a classical context.

I still have issues with it unfortunately. To me, it sounds like loads of top end has been rolled off to counter the flaws in the basic sound that I've mentioned previously. Whilst this works to give a very rich sound, it also sounds very dull. For me, the attack gets lost and apart from the stacc passage at the end of the first subject, everything sounds slurred / legato. You can't hear any tonguing - the starts of the phrases don't "speak" properly. I also think that it has a very limited dynamic range, again possibly because the natural brightness has been removed.

That being said, thanks again for finding it. It shows me that there is hope 

I actually played some of the quintet at uni. Lot harder than it sounds 👍


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## youngpokie (Jan 24, 2022)

mozart999uk said:


> There's still something very synthy about the higher register in the bassoon.


Thank you for making this comparison. I do agree with you there is something off in the top register. 

To my ears, the top register shows very pronounced nasality, vaguely saxophone-like. Audio Modeling do not specify this (unfortunately!), but it sounds to me as if they modelled a French bassoon rather than the more common and sonically familiar German type - it's as if the entire specter of formants has been shifted up and the top formants are now sitting in the oboe area. 

Perhaps @lelepar can clarify. And another comment related to this:



lelepar said:


> SWAM is not a sample library, the sound can be changed a lot acting on different parameters.
> Have you tried Formant? Harmonic Structure? Sub. Harm? Modal Resonance?



I find the realism of the clarinet can be improved when the CC control for the Formant is programmed to move based on the register that's being played at the moment. In my own case, I find the middle register sounds more realistic with the formant slider sitting higher, the high register with formant sitting lower and the low register with formant in the middle. This emphasizes to my ears the tone changes in each of the 3 clarinet registers - even though the direction of the formant movement is counter intuitive. I also combine it with riding Harm. Structure (lowering it to reduce the ringing) and setting Modal Res to emphasize either the low or high end. 

However, nothing I try has worked to reproduce this very characteristic "clicky" sound of what I think is the register change. (I am not a clarinet player but am certain it's the register rather than key noise). It's present in every recording I've listened to but easiest to hear in this version. So a question for @lelepar if this is something that can be done and if so - how? Thanks!


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## mozart999uk (Jan 24, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> I do agree with you there is something off in the top register.
> 
> However, nothing I try has worked to reproduce this very characteristic "clicky" sound of what I think is the register change. (I am not a clarinet player but am certain it's the register rather than key noise). It's present in every recording I've listened to but easiest to hear in this version. So a question for @lelepar if this is something that can be done and if so - how? Thanks!



I find the upper registers in a real bassoon quite fun to work with. They always feel a little bit strained and edgy - like something is gonna burst (on either the instrument or the player 😂). I like the fact that as you go higher up it seems to be less "tone" and more breath and spit...

Must confess I didn't know about french vs german bassoons. You learn something new every day!

In both the AM bassoon and AM clarinet I find there's sometimes a tone that I can only describe as like a thick plastic resonating tube. When I first started playing clarinet it sounded a bit like that - a combination of too thin a reed and bad embouchure.

I hear it in the AM flute sometimes too....

Regarding the clarinet extract you linked to ....do you mean the "dock" noise on the join between notes?


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## youngpokie (Jan 24, 2022)

mozart999uk said:


> do you mean the "dock" noise on the join between notes?


I don't know if that's the term for the sound in that particular spot but I guess it must be since there's nothing else that stands out at that exact moment. Thanks! Again, hoping @lelepar will indicate how to imitate it... 



mozart999uk said:


> When I first started playing clarinet it sounded a bit like that - a combination of too thin a reed and bad embouchure.
> 
> I hear it in the SM flute sometimes too....



Agreed re: the flutes. I actually like flutes the least of all Audio Modeling instruments because I can never make the legato transitions sound flute-like. They sound very generic GM to me (especially in low register and at register transitions). I tried using higher velocity inside legato phrases, but it never quite worked (strange - because higher velocity works so well in the oboe!). The staccato is beautiful but that's not enough..

But I do like the clarinet! It takes a lot of tweaking (first the formants/resonance, then the EQ and then the reverb) and the parameters need riding or dynamic switching - but the oboe and the clarinet are the best SWAM woodwinds in my personal opinion.


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## mozart999uk (Jan 24, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> I don't know if that's the term for the sound in that particular spot but I guess it must be since there's nothing else that stands out at that exact moment. Thanks! Again, hoping @lelepar will indicate how to imitate it...


So that's the sound of the fingers hitting the holes . Happens with the pads too...particularly the bigger ones... haven't got my clarinet to hand but later I'll play that passage and see which it is. My wife was recorded once; just making the "dock" noises (I picked up that term from another sound engineer) without blowing, for a student composition...the crazy things we did at uni 

Thanks for your tips on the AM clarinet. I hadn't thought about modulating the other parameters whilst playing / on playback. To be honest it kinda puts me off, as one of the things I like about AM is the fact that it's pretty much "pick up and go" without having to faff around with keyswitches and other bits like you do with samples...

I'm messing about with reverb on it at the moment:

I have a great altiverb setting (using the positioner) that works a treat for VSL winds - really places them well in an orchestral context but doesn't seem to work so well with AM.....more tweaking needed


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## youngpokie (Jan 24, 2022)

mozart999uk said:


> So that's the sound of the fingers hitting the holes . Happens with the pads too...particularly the bigger ones.


Hmmm. But why does it only happen for those specific notes and no other notes? And I'm not sure anymore but I also think it only happens on the way down, not on the way back up.... I don't think it's the key noise because that's a different sound and it would be more common, no?


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## mozart999uk (Jan 24, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> Hmmm. But why does it only happen for those specific notes and no other notes? And I'm not sure anymore but I also think it only happens on the way down, not on the way back up.... I don't think it's the key noise because that's a different sound and it would be more common, no?


Not all notes have pads - some just use the fingers to cover the holes. Some have holes and also rings...

This might help. (It's a bit blurry though)



Notice that the "dock" only happens when he plays the concert B (fourth finger of right hand covers hole - that's a common noisy one) and also the concert G# (little finger of left hand hits the bridge key - this opens one hole and closes another using pads).

You also get different frequencies / pitches of "dock" depending on which other holes are open - the resonance of the whole barrel changes as sonically the length has changed.

Also - certain clarinets have noisier pads than others and players will often make quite an definite action with their fingers to cover the holes to make sure the transition is pure. If you are sloppy covering a hole you can get a bend - great for jazz - not so good for classical. 

Finally actually I should correct something / clarify something that I said earlier - it isn't just the noise of the fingers hitting the holes or pads hitting the holes - it's also to do with the way the air / note is travelling through the clarinet when the transitions take place / holes are covered.

If you just play the notes on the AM clarinet without expression CC, you can hear there are some "dock" noises coupled with keywork clicks but on their own they don't sound the same. With a real clarinet it's also the air and note during the transition that make some of the noise

From memory I think some of the VSL clarinet legato transitions have these noises captured just through the fact that they recorded actual legato transitions.

Gosh - long post. Hope some of that is useful. Was actually fun for me to get my clarinet out and study the noises myself!


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## Tralen (Jan 24, 2022)

mozart999uk said:


> In both the SM bassoon and SM clarinet I find there's sometimes a tone that I can only describe as like a thick plastic resonating tube. When I first started playing clarinet it sounded a bit like that - a combination of too thin a reed and bad embouchure.
> 
> I hear it in the SM flute sometimes too....


I'll do a bit of a nitpicking clarification. SM (Samplemodeling) doesn't have woodwinds. SWAM instruments are produced by Audio Modeling, which was part of Samplemodeling up to some years ago when it split as a rival company.

SM now has just Brass and Strings, but there is still a lot of confusion.


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## mozart999uk (Jan 25, 2022)

Tralen said:


> I'll do a bit of a nitpicking clarification. SM (Samplemodeling) doesn't have woodwinds. SWAM instruments are produced by Audio Modeling, which was part of Samplemodeling up to some years ago when it split as a rival company.
> 
> SM now has just Brass and Strings, but there is still a lot of confusion.


You're absolutely right. Thanks for that. I've gone through and edited my previous posts


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## youngpokie (Jan 25, 2022)

mozart999uk said:


> it isn't just the noise of the fingers hitting the holes or pads hitting the holes - it's also to do with the way the air / note is travelling through the clarinet when the transitions take place / holes are covered.


I've had time to get into this and yes, you are right. Thank you for posting this video. 

I think Orchestral Tools captured this exact transition sound and made it part of their normal legato transitions (in the Solo Clarinet, I think) in a lot more places than just this area. Makes their clarinet sound rather unique.

Anyway, I do hope someone knows if it's possible to get this on SWAM Clarinet, that would be really lovely.


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## mozart999uk (Jan 25, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> I've had time to get into this and yes, you are right. Thank you for posting this video.
> 
> I think Orchestral Tools captured this exact transition sound and made it part of their normal legato transitions (in the Solo Clarinet, I think) in a lot more places than just this area. Makes their clarinet sound rather unique.
> 
> Anyway, I do hope someone knows if it's possible to get this on SWAM Clarinet, that would be really lovely.


Pleasure. In fact I was listening to my wife practice last night and noticed it all over the place  Yes it would be lovely to have it on the swam clarinet. Have you thought about contacting AM directly about it? They seem to have gone a bit quiet on this thread. 

I really like the OT clarinet


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## lelepar (Jan 26, 2022)

Hi everyone, indeed our SWAM Solo Woodwinds do model that bore noise. Maybe it's just too low and it is "hidden" by the key noise. We are going to check it and try to improve it.

Fun story: in the first versions of the SWAM Solo Woodwinds the bore and key noise volume could not be zeroed. In the past, several users, even from this community, asked for the possibility to eliminate bore and key noise... now here you are asking to increase it 🤷‍♂️


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## mozart999uk (Jan 26, 2022)

lelepar said:


> Hi everyone, indeed our SWAM Solo Woodwinds do model that bore noise. Maybe it's just too low and it is "hidden" by the key noise. We are going to check it and try to improve it.
> 
> Fun story: in the first versions of the SWAM Solo Woodwinds the bore and key noise volume could not be zeroed. In the past, several users, even from this community, asked for the possibility to eliminate bore and key noise... now here you are asking to increase it 🤷‍♂️


Hi Lelepar. Thanks for your response. Is it possible to have that noise separated from the metal work noise?


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## Maarten (Jan 26, 2022)

lelepar said:


> Hi everyone, indeed our SWAM Solo Woodwinds do model that bore noise. Maybe it's just too low and it is "hidden" by the key noise. We are going to check it and try to improve it.
> 
> Fun story: in the first versions of the SWAM Solo Woodwinds the bore and key noise volume could not be zeroed. In the past, several users, even from this community, asked for the possibility to eliminate bore and key noise... now here you are asking to increase it 🤷‍♂️


Thanks for your response, love the instruments. I hope improve means 'dial it in according to your taste' like the breath noise.


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## lelepar (Jan 26, 2022)

mozart999uk said:


> Hi Lelepar. Thanks for your response. Is it possible to have that noise separated from the metal work noise?


I'll check with the team


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## muziksculp (Jan 28, 2022)




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## muziksculp (Jan 30, 2022)

Hi,

*SWAM Trumpets V3* users, how are you liking them so far ? Would you recommend them ?

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## Ben H (Jan 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> *SWAM Trumpets V3* users, how are you liking them so far ? Would you recommend them ?
> 
> ...


They're okay.

There is a good review here, if you haven't seen it yet.




BTW the Trumpets (and Brass) is currently at v1.6.5, not V3.


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## muziksculp (Jan 30, 2022)

Ben H said:


> BTW the Trumpets (and Brass) is currently at v1.6.5, not V3.


Oh.. That's right. Thanks for the feedback, and video. 

I thought V3 of their Brass Solo Instruments was released. I might just wait for V3 to be released. 

Love their Solo Strings V3 SWAM Instruments, and really excited about the release of SWAM Ensemble Strings


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## Ben H (Jan 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Oh.. That's right. Thanks for the feedback, and video.
> 
> I thought V3 of their Brass Solo Instruments was released. I might just wait for V3 to be released.
> 
> Love their Solo Strings V3 SWAM Instruments, and really excited about the release of SWAM Ensemble Strings


Well it has the all same features/functionality of their other V3 instruments. They just haven't numbered them V3, because they haven't needed to update them, since they were released later.


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## muziksculp (Jan 31, 2022)

Ben H said:


> Well it has the all same features/functionality of their other V3 instruments. They just haven't numbered them V3, because they haven't needed to update them, since they were released later.


I see, that's a bit confusing. 

Since most of the SWAM V3 have a different GUI than the previous versions, i.e. for the Strings, and Double Reeds, also the Saxes. Why would they not bump up the version of the Trumpets to 3 instead of keeping them at v 1.5 ?


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## pmcrockett (Jan 31, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I see, that's a bit confusing.
> 
> Since most of the SWAM V3 have a different GUI than the previous versions, i.e. for the Strings, and Double Reeds, also the Saxes. Why would they not bump up the version of the Trumpets to 3 instead of keeping them at v 1.5 ?


All versions of the brass instruments have used the new interface since they were released (they were the first instruments to use it). They were released way later than the woodwinds and strings, so their version numbering is lower because they just haven't been through as many iterations as the older instruments. 

Edit: Slightly confusing, I guess, since Audio Modeling's marketing has emphasized the connection between V3 and the new interface, but that connection only holds true for the woodwinds and strings. Version numbers are ultimately arbitrary, so they could jump the brass to V3 for marketing purposes, like how Microsoft skipped Windows 9, but once the marketing of the woodwinds update runs its course, it won't really be relevant anymore.


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## muziksculp (Jan 31, 2022)

pmcrockett said:


> All versions of the brass instruments have used the new interface since they were released (they were the first instruments to use it). They were released way later than the woodwinds and strings, so their version numbering is lower because they just haven't been through as many iterations as the older instruments.


OK. Thanks for the feedback. 

I didn't know that. so ver 1.5 for brass instruments makes sense. I thought their Solo Brass Instruments used the older GUI as well when they were released.


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## muziksculp (Jan 31, 2022)

I'm most likely going to get their SWAM Trumpets, I really like the way they sound. 

Also looking forward to the release of their SWAM Ensemble Strings. This one is super exciting for me.


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## Phillip Dixon (Jan 31, 2022)

Yes waiting to see how these turn out
What with pacific looming. And that I have SSO, Vista. Vsl. Trying to hold back from any purchase, until I can compere. 
I for one, love the idea of no "sample" libraries.


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## Ben H (Jan 31, 2022)

pmcrockett said:


> All versions of the brass instruments have used the new interface since they were released (they were the first instruments to use it). They were released way later than the woodwinds and strings, so their version numbering is lower because they just haven't been through as many iterations as the older instruments.
> 
> Edit: Slightly confusing, I guess, since Audio Modeling's marketing has emphasized the connection between V3 and the new interface, but that connection only holds true for the woodwinds and strings. Version numbers are ultimately arbitrary, so they could jump the brass to V3 for marketing purposes, like how Microsoft skipped Windows 9, but once the marketing of the woodwinds update runs its course, it won't really be relevant anymore.


Yes, but it also would've been equally confusing if they had just released V3 as the first version, without releasing a V1 or V2.


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## mozart999uk (Feb 2, 2022)

Following on from my comments about the clarinet, I've just tried flute V3 and I'm pleasantly surprised based on my observations from a while back. For nimble orchestral passages it does really really well. I'm still not sure about some of the legato joins but I'll keep playing with it.


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## Windbag (Feb 3, 2022)

Flutes like fast legato changes...it's the only one of the swam winds I used my regular keyboard for (partly because I'm a long way from real diaphragm tremolo and have no use for the roli)

Speaking of clarinets though, I can't seem to dig up any listing of individual instruments. Is there a bass clarinet?


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## muziksculp (Feb 3, 2022)

Windbag said:


> Speaking of clarinets though, I can't seem to dig up any listing of individual instruments. Is there a bass clarinet?


Good observation, kind of odd they didn't list which Clarinets they include, I'm guessing they must have a Bass Clarinet, but there is no mention of it in their documentation. Strange.

Maybe users of SWAM Clarinets can provide the answer.


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## Tralen (Feb 3, 2022)

It is mentioned at the top in the clarinet's page description.



> *Discover the best virtual clarinets on the market: expressive, *realistic virtual clarinet and bass clarinet* that respond to real-time controllers as naturally as traditional acoustic wind instruments do.*​


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## muziksculp (Feb 3, 2022)

Tralen said:


> It is mentioned at the top in the clarinet's page description.


OH..THANKS ! 

LOL , I need to get new reading glasses.  How did I miss that ? 

OK, so Clarinet, and Bass Clarinet. Which is what I expected.


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## Tralen (Feb 3, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> OH..THANKS !
> 
> LOL , I need to get new reading glasses.  How did I miss that ?
> 
> OK, so Clarinet, and Bass Clarinet. Which is what I expected.


It is the same with the other woodwinds, they state what they are at the top description, not in the feature set (which is weird). They also list the instruments when you are looking at _other_ woodwinds (sigh).






By the way, the fact that there are only 2 makes the Clarinets the most expensive of SWAM woodwinds, $85 for each, with just the strings being more expensive.


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## Windbag (Feb 3, 2022)

Ah good..I was sure i'd seen videos from earlier versions...Thanks! I'm thinking I might finally retire the poor ol' WIVI set I've kept around just for clarinets when switching over to M1-based workstation and wanted to make sure I can cover the low winds (thou shalt not neglect the low winds). Pretty happy with SWAM bassoons...anyone working out the V3 bass clarinet yet?


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## muziksculp (Feb 3, 2022)




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## mozart999uk (Feb 4, 2022)

Windbag said:


> Ah good..I was sure i'd seen videos from earlier versions...Thanks! I'm thinking I might finally retire the poor ol' WIVI set I've kept around just for clarinets when switching over to M1-based workstation and wanted to make sure I can cover the low winds (thou shalt not neglect the low winds). Pretty happy with SWAM bassoons...anyone working out the V3 bass clarinet yet?


Just tried replacing V2 bs clarinet with V3 in a piece I'm working on. Can get it pretty much identical. I really like it for lower stuff in an orchestral context. In the same way as the clarinet (and the bassoon to my ears) the upper notes sound a bit.....erm...."pipey / tubey"......


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## mozart999uk (Feb 4, 2022)

Windbag said:


> Flutes like fast legato changes...it's the only one of the swam winds I used my regular keyboard for (partly because I'm a long way from real diaphragm tremolo and have no use for the roli)
> 
> Speaking of clarinets though, I can't seem to dig up any listing of individual instruments. Is there a bass clarinet?


Have you managed to get slower legato changes to sound more natural on the swam flute?


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## Windbag (Feb 4, 2022)

mozart999uk said:


> Have you managed to get slower legato changes to sound more natural on the swam flute?



I'm usually doing concert type stuff and stick to the regular SL88 board for input because I can keep the velocities high for quicker transitions, but you can certainly do some fun stuff changing the pipe model over to "slide," ...which will allow gradual pitch transitions á la shakuhachi-style slow finger lift:

View attachment Shakuhachi_SwamFL.mp3


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## Windbag (Feb 4, 2022)

mozart999uk said:


> In the same way as the clarinet (and the bassoon to my ears) the upper notes sound a bit.....erm...."pipey / tubey"......


Managing formant may help this a bit...I find it essential enough for the double reeds that it's mapped to bite control on my BBC2 and gets a lot of active input


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## muziksculp (Feb 4, 2022)

Windbag said:


> I'm usually doing concert type stuff and stick to the regular SL88 board for input because I can keep the velocities high for quicker transitions, but you can certainly do some fun stuff changing the pipe model over to "slide," ...which will allow gradual pitch transitions á la shakuhachi-style slow finger lift:
> 
> View attachment Shakuhachi_SwamFL.mp3


WOW ! 

Thanks for posting this. 

The Slide Pipe Model makes the SWAM Flutes very versatile instruments. I wasn't aware of this.


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## mozart999uk (Feb 7, 2022)

Windbag said:


> I'm usually doing concert type stuff and stick to the regular SL88 board for input because I can keep the velocities high for quicker transitions, but you can certainly do some fun stuff changing the pipe model over to "slide," ...which will allow gradual pitch transitions á la shakuhachi-style slow finger lift:
> 
> View attachment Shakuhachi_SwamFL.mp3


That sounds great! Gonna enjoy messing about with this! 
Going back to the classical flute, I'm finding for example, the transition from Ab (above mid c) to Db above rather hard sounding whereas Ab to Eb is much smoother / softer....(see attachment)


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## Windbag (Feb 7, 2022)

Well you're right at the lower octave change point - which is a good example of these modeled instruments teaching me about the real ones. There is a pretty clever visualization of the standing wave if you open the UI (note the alt fingering when returning to Db from higher): 

View attachment SWAM_Flute_octave12.mp4


There are a few points like this the seem to require delicate technique to finesse...which I assume to be somewhat true for the real instrument and thus handy to know about should I write for a live player. I don't know that I have any secret sauce here, but the last line or two are how I've taken to playing around transitions like that on the breath controller, in case that helps any.... seems like maybe light touch on the key and pulling the expr value right at the change.


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## mozart999uk (Feb 8, 2022)

Windbag said:


> Well you're right at the lower octave change point - which is a good example of these modeled instruments teaching me about the real ones. There is a pretty clever visualization of the standing wave if you open the UI (note the alt fingering when returning to Db from higher):
> 
> View attachment SWAM_Flute_octave12.mp4
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to reply with detailed thoughts. Just tried the same experiment with VSL and there's definitely something not quite so smooth about that particular jump, although the VSL legatos transitions are still (in my mind) much nicer generally than the SWAM.  The VSL Ab to Db doesn't bother me whereas with the SWAM it's more noticeable. Just my experience though. You definitely get them to sound nicer with swam than I can seem to! I'll have to play around some more. 

Your shak excerpt / demo was very good indeed! Be interested to learn more on how you're mapping your breath controller. I've got the original tecontrol BC. Do you find the BBC with the extra control worth it?


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## Jazzmess (Feb 26, 2022)

Hi there ! Any hints that there will be a promo on the woodwinds bundle upgrade to v3 ? It’s 187€ at the moment.
Cheers !


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## Saxer (Feb 26, 2022)

muziksculp said:


>



Especially with the oboe I find the sound rather 'whinery' when the vibrato is dialed up while playing new notes. It sounds much more healthy when vibrato is always up only right after the note attack. For fast passages it should be down completely. In opposite to the flute where players often vibrate over the note attacks.

For clarinets and saxes I don't like the SWAM vibrato at all. Classical clarinet players avoid it anyway most of the time. But for other styles like kezmer or jazz the vibrato is mainly made by embouchure (more like a chewing or saying 'oioioioi') and results in a pitch vibrato instead of the diaphragm vibrato that flute players use which is mainly modulating the amplitude. It's possible to play sax and clarinet with diaphragm vibrato but actually hardly anyone uses it. It simply doesn't sound right.


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## youngpokie (Feb 26, 2022)

Windbag said:


> Well you're right at the lower octave change point - which is a good example of these modeled instruments teaching me about the real ones. There is a pretty clever visualization of the standing wave if you open the UI (note the alt fingering when returning to Db from higher):


I'm finding the same thing - using alt fingering at the lower end of the flute has audible (and beneficial, to my ears) impact on tone and on transitions. Higher note velocity inside legato phrases too. Perhaps this is the case where a more detailed understanding of how flute is played in the real world is especially useful. I don't have a breath controller, but I do wonder if there is a place somewhere where it's possible to see the CC curves at work while breath controller is active....

Your posts with experiments and details like that are really interesting and enlightening, I really appreciate them. Thanks.


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## muziksculp (Mar 11, 2022)




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## mozart999uk (Mar 14, 2022)

muziksculp said:


>



Thanks! Looking forward to watching


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## doctoremmet (Mar 17, 2022)

From March 17 to 31 you can upgrade to V3 for only 25 USD/EUR per instrument! 

Some examples: 

If you own the Saxophone v2, you pay only $25 instead of $62!
If you own the entire Strings v2 collection, you can upgrade all the instruments for only 25 X 4 = $100 instead of $144!!
if you have the complete Solo Woodwinds v2 collection, the full upgrade will cost you only 25X 4 = $100 - you save $87!

Due to technical limitations of our online store, it is not possible to upgrade multiple products (instruments or bundles) in a single purchase; each product (instrument or bundle) must be upgraded with its own purchase.


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## Lohena (Mar 17, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> From March 17 to 31 you can upgrade to V3 for only 25 USD/EUR per instrument!
> 
> Some examples:
> 
> ...


I'm in for my saxes!


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## doctoremmet (Mar 17, 2022)

Lohena said:


> I'm in for my saxes!


+1!


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## Monkberry (Mar 18, 2022)

New Audio Modeling software center is much more convenient. Everything is 3.5 now.


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## David Cuny (Mar 18, 2022)

I just updated my entire collection and used their Software Center. Very slick. 👍


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## decredis (Mar 18, 2022)

Gotta say, the graphical interface is such an advance on v2. Can't hear much timbral difference in the flutes (the only ones I own). Excited to try the trial versions of the other instruments, particularly impressed by the violins and the saxes. The saxes seem better than I thought they were from demos I'd seen.


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## Gingham Jones (Mar 18, 2022)

Ahhhh I've been putting off getting the new woodwinds but they finally got me with the sale! I agree, the software center is a nice addition. Can't wait to try them out with an ensemble project I'm working on, I haven't looked at 'em since a demo when they first came out.


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## muziksculp (Mar 19, 2022)




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## SchnookyPants (Mar 25, 2022)

muziksculp said:


>



That is excellent. Thanks for posting. I think you just pushed me to the SWAM Saxes.


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## mozart999uk (Mar 25, 2022)

muziksculp said:


>



Nice arranging chops matey!!!!!!!


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## Windbag (Mar 25, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> From March 17 to 31 you can upgrade to V3 for only 25 USD/EUR per instrument!
> 
> Some examples:
> 
> ...


Ooh man I almost missed this. Guess that does it for my lingering V2s!


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## JimDiGritz (Mar 26, 2022)

I've tried a search but haven't seen anything specific on this: Can anyone compare SWAM winds v3 with Infinite Winds?

My BBCSO core winds are okay, but have held off the 8dio Claire sale since I've been enjoying the Samplemodeling strings for solo stuff both exposed and layered over the bbsco sections.

Thanks in advance


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## decredis (Mar 27, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> I've tried a search but haven't seen anything specific on this: Can anyone compare SWAM winds v3 with Infinite Winds?


I have Infinite and have been playing around with the SWAM3 trials... I love Infinite, but I would say that SWAM's woodwinds have the edge timbrally and also in their ease of responsiveness in fast passages played in live.

I think if I had both I might prefer Infinite in ensemble contexts, and SWAM in more exposed contexts; or also Infinite in more 'classical' contexts and SWAM in more jazzy contexts.

Also the breathy/noisy component in, say, flutes and sax feels more integral and realistic in SWAM; and within each of those families there's more variation among the timbres (eg baritone vs tenor vs alto vs soprano sax) in SWAM; and the oboe and english horn have more of a richly nasal quality in SWAM.

Conversely, of course, Infinite has the much more attractive development/business model, with its eternal free updates and upgrades and regular substantial improvements.


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## ChristianM (Mar 27, 2022)

As usual, the card payment did not work on this site. The card and the card code are accepted, validated with the terminal-box and when returning to the store it tells me that the payment has been refused!
This site is hopeless.


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## tcb (Mar 27, 2022)

ChristianM said:


> As usual, the card payment did not work on this site. The card and the card code are accepted, validated with the terminal-box and when returning to the store it tells me that the payment has been refused!
> This site is hopeless.


You can buy SWAM at Audiodeluxe or other dealers.And the price is lower than AM's website!


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## gamma-ut (Mar 28, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> I've tried a search but haven't seen anything specific on this: Can anyone compare SWAM winds v3 with Infinite Winds?
> 
> My BBCSO core winds are okay, but have held off the 8dio Claire sale since I've been enjoying the Samplemodeling strings for solo stuff both exposed and layered over the bbsco sections.
> 
> Thanks in advance


Are you going to play the instrument lines in with a breath controller or MPE surface, or do it more by sequencing and then tweaking the expression by hand or doing a run-through with an expression pedal? The usage is more likely to determine which is better for you than a direct comparison. I'd go for SWAM for the former, IW for the latter.


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## JimDiGritz (Mar 28, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> Are you going to play the instrument lines in with a breath controller or MPE surface, or do it more by sequencing and then tweaking the expression by hand or doing a run-through with an expression pedal? The usage is more likely to determine which is better for you than a direct comparison. I'd go for SWAM for the former, IW for the latter.


Thanks @gamma-ut - I'm happy with samplemodeling strings using 3 x faders to play in modulation along with the keyboard. I definitely don't mind tweaking after the fact since my playing can be dodgy anyway!


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## ChristianM (Mar 28, 2022)

tcb said:


> You can buy SWAM at Audiodeluxe or other dealers.And the price is lower than AM's website!


YES, it's ok with auiodeluxe…
I had the same problem with the update of the violins V3. I tthink my Bank dont'like 2checkOut


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## gamma-ut (Mar 28, 2022)

ChristianM said:


> YES, it's ok with auiodeluxe…
> I had the same problem with the update of the violins V3. I tthink my Bank dont'like 2checkOut


2Co seems to be having problems. I tried to buy something over the weekend from a site using 2Co and it came up blocked by the bank - but I didnt get the usual text fraud-check messages that normally come through which made me think it’s actually a problem with their own back-end systems rather than the bank.


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## cug (Mar 28, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> 2Co seems to be having problems. I tried to buy something over the weekend from a site using 2Co and it came up blocked by the bank - but I didnt get the usual text fraud-check messages that normally come through which made me think it’s actually a problem with their own back-end systems rather than the bank.


I had the same issue today with my preferred bank card and 2Co. My bank thought it was possible fraud. I had to find another way to pay. The authorization process seems more convoluted than other VI vendors (many emails). Once I got through all that, I will say that the software center made the download and installation process very fast and smooth. 

The v3 UI is easier to look at than the old one and I like the tone control options. Too bad they buried the controller assignments so deep in the UI. I wish I could just control-click, or right click to do this.


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## Windbag (Apr 8, 2022)

Well I must say, now that i've finally gotten some time with them, that the double reeds V3 set has improved more than I was expecting. Here's a bit Faure on the English horn, since it seems even more overlooked than the rest of the reeds: 

View attachment SWAM_EH_Sicilienne.mp3


...I notice smoother, faster (due in part to the "fast" wind control mode and some other added accomodation) more uniform response across the note range, with generally improved timbre and more variations per instrument. I really don't hear any of the clusters of 'problem area" notes I tended to avoid before, and anticipate an easier time putting them to use in solo lines pretty much anywhere. Solid work, AM 

(I can try to throw some clips of the oboe and bassoons up too if people are curious....as I still am about the bass clarinet if anyone has that)


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## echo7 (Apr 23, 2022)

Windbag said:


> Well I must say, now that i've finally gotten some time with them, that the double reeds V3 set has improved more than I was expecting. Here's a bit Faure on the English horn, since it seems even more overlooked than the rest of the reeds:
> 
> View attachment SWAM_EH_Sicilienne.mp3
> 
> ...


Very nice demo! Am considering purchasing the flutes from AM, do you have any demos of these in an orchestral context? Can you easily duplicate these and make your own sections? For example 2 of the same flutes in the orchestra, playing same or different parts?


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## Ale8ory (Apr 23, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Very nice demo! Am considering purchasing the flutes from AM, do you have any demos of these in an orchestral context? Can you easily duplicate these and make your own sections? For example 2 of the same flutes in the orchestra, playing same or different parts?


Here are the Audio Modeling woodwinds in an orchestral context:


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## Windbag (Apr 24, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Can you easily duplicate these and make your own sections? For example 2 of the same flutes in the orchestra, playing same or different parts?


heh...this might be pretty far from what you had in mind but I'm gonna post it anyway because stumbling across it in my orphaned bounces folder made me laugh:

View attachment Chipper.mp3


...a painfully cheeky but 'flute forward' example early SWAM flutes (this can't have been too long after the original release) in small orchestra context

I've gotten on pretty well with 2 flutes and 1 piccolo (as above) as the go-to in the closest thing I have to an orchestra template...and V3 has improved most aspects of this implementation. I tend to sub one of the C flutes for Alto since the flute models don't differ as much to my ear as those in AM's reeds and strings offerings - the more distinct instrument flavors work pretty well for unisons.

There's a little C/Alto unison in this short bit from the lincoln score I was ear-training with recently enough it should be all V3:

View attachment AmericanProcessWinds.mp3


I tend to play in the line for each instance even if it's unison, since for me much of the challenge of using modeled ensembles is avoiding too much similarity between the parts...so the timing and other performance differences help sell it


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## echo7 (Apr 24, 2022)

Windbag said:


> heh...this might be pretty far from what you had in mind but I'm gonna post it anyway because stumbling across it in my orphaned bounces folder made me laugh:
> 
> View attachment Chipper.mp3
> 
> ...


Awesome thanks for getting back. Nice demos, I'm convinced! Without getting too far off topic, do you think their Brass is at the same level as these woodwinds? Or SM brass still better?


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## muziksculp (Apr 24, 2022)

echo7 said:


> do you think their Brass is at the same level as these woodwinds? Or SM brass still better?


I would like to know about this as well. I have been thinking about getting the SWAM Brass bundle next month, but still undecided. Any feedback on the SWAM Brass Bundle would be helpful, and interesting. 

Thanks


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## echo7 (Apr 24, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I would like to know about this as well. I have been thinking about getting the SWAM Brass bundle next month, but still undecided. Any feedback on the SWAM Brass Bundle would be helpful, and interesting.
> 
> Thanks


Started a new thread about the SWAM BRASS v3.5 here if anyone is interested or can answer some of my questions.


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## CT (Apr 24, 2022)

Windbag said:


> heh...this might be pretty far from what you had in mind but I'm gonna post it anyway because stumbling across it in my orphaned bounces folder made me laugh:
> 
> View attachment Chipper.mp3
> 
> ...


Lincoln one sounds nice!


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## Windbag (Apr 24, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> Lincoln one sounds nice!



gracias... it occurs to me that the strings (LASS) are the only part that isn't modeled in that one, and there's still a SWAM cello leading the moving line.



echo7 said:


> Without getting too far off topic, do you think their Brass is at the same level as these woodwinds? Or SM brass still better?



I haven''t had my [busted] mitts on AM's brass yet, being all-in on the samplemodeling ones (which I love)...I'll be watching your other thread as it sounds from what little i've heard like there might be some good tools for larger ensembles...the kind of thing SM can be finicky about


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## muziksculp (Apr 30, 2022)




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## muziksculp (Jun 11, 2022)




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## Virtual Virgin (Jun 13, 2022)

muziksculp said:


>



Nice arrangement, but timbre-wise I would say that the attack envelope is too forceful and that the overblow harmonics are probably the biggest departure from realism, making the effect hyperbolic. I would strongly suggest scaling back the overblow to a fraction of its current extent here.


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## muziksculp (Jun 13, 2022)

Virtual Virgin said:


> Nice arrangement, but timbre-wise I would say that the attack envelope is too forceful and that the overblow harmonics are probably the biggest departure from realism, making the effect hyperbolic. I would strongly suggest scaling back the overblow to a fraction of its current extent here.


I didn't make this demo.


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## Virtual Virgin (Jun 14, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I didn't make this demo.


Haha. Sorry! I should have checked.


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## mozart999uk (Aug 1, 2022)

Windbag said:


> heh...this might be pretty far from what you had in mind but I'm gonna post it anyway because stumbling across it in my orphaned bounces folder made me laugh:
> 
> View attachment Chipper.mp3
> 
> ...


Both really nice examples of the flutes there. In fact, nice programming all round! good tip about doubling C with alto for unison. Hadn't thought about doing that!


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## mozart999uk (Aug 1, 2022)

Anyone had any problems with 3.5 versions being / sounding / reacting differently to earlier 3.0.x versions? Any problems opening older projects?


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