# Structure and Process, help requested



## TomJ (Oct 24, 2012)

Hi all,

I haven't been composing long, a year or so, and whilst I had been relatively pleased with my progress, I've started to notice recurring flaws that don't seem to be going away.

I came to realise that this is largely due to a fundamental lack of knowledge of structure in orchestral pieces.

I come from a pop/rock/electronic background, a guitarist of many years with a bit of hobbyist electronic music production as well.

This, I think, is the root of the flaw I mentioned above. I tend to structure my compositions like popular music - focusing on a verse/chorus/verse/chorus structure, for example. Or even just a 'verse' - with looping progressions.

After listening to some of my favourite orchestral music in detail (mostly film scores), I came to realise that they don't often follow a pop style structure. They seem to 'evolve' or progress, with little or no repetition, with new phrases added and taken away over the duration.

Now, I appreciate that in the case of film scores this is most likely to fit the action in the picture, but classical music is the same, it seems to be written as a 'piece' rather than a series of repeated loops and phrases a la popular music.

Not exactly a revelation for most of you, I'm sure, but it was a bit if an eye opener for me.

So, that leads me to ask, how on earth do you guys go about writing this kind of music, and where could I learn more about it; books, websites, online courses etc?

The pop/rock heritage is so deeply ingrained in me that I naturally gravitate to beginning with a loop of chords, then adding melodies over the top, and then a different progression for the 'chorus', but this always just leaves me with the same result, effectively a pop tune played on orchestral instruments.

I'm keen to hear some thoughts and advice on this, also it would be great to hear how you guys write; the kind of process you take. I appreciate that this may seldom be the same process for each piece, but I'm sure you have a comfortable way of approaching each new composition.

I've posted a thread over in the Introductions board with examples of my current works, if you're interested. http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... 04&start=0

Many thanks


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## KEnK (Oct 24, 2012)

TomJ @ Wed Oct 24 said:


> ...I tend to structure my compositions like popular music - focusing on a verse/chorus/verse/chorus structure, for example. Or even just a 'verse' - with looping progressions...
> 
> ...The pop/rock heritage is so deeply ingrained in me that I naturally gravitate to beginning with a loop of chords, then adding melodies over the top, and then a different progression for the 'chorus', but this always just leaves me with the same result, effectively a pop tune played on orchestral instruments...


Film Music has become anything goes, 
Classical Composition is another matter entirely.

As you guessed, you need to read up on a lot of theory.
There are tons of books out there about the process and rules.
To get into most of those books, you need to read music.

If you don't, there are still ways to get into more involved structure.
Here's a couple of wiki links to get you going.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_form
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonata_form

Main thing would be to start tossing out old habits if you want to build new ones.
Stop thinking in terms of verse/chorus/verse, 
and look at _structure_ in terms of a _lettering_ system. 

Both Classical and Jazz composers use this method.
It's very simple and very effective.

A typical pop song is going to be AABAB etc.
But look at the different structures you can come up with
ABACADA (thats a rondo) 
An arch form is one I like ABCDCBA 
Each letter A, B etc can have it's own building blocks (aba)
Arches within arches in this case

An easy win might be to experiment w/ funk or fusion type compositions.
More involved than pop, not as complex as Classical.
Try writing riffs, 
then riffs over and inside of riffs.
This will get you into "part writing" - a key element

I suggest stop using chord progressions all together. (at least as an experiment)
Go more for a melodic weave that changes over time. (like a solo)

That's really one of the main tools of classical writing.
Counterpoint- how several melodies or parts fitting together.

I like to start w/ a structural schematic- 
Consider it a map, formula, or basic outline 
Then I fill in the blanks.

It works for me!

k


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 24, 2012)

You can also take KEnk's idea about starting with a roadmap and pervert it by stealing.

Put an orchestral piece you like in your sequencer - Beethoven, whatever. Then steal its form, phrase by phrase.

Nobody will ever know.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 24, 2012)

(Plus your music will probably take you off on your own anyway.)


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## George Caplan (Oct 24, 2012)

TomJ @ Wed Oct 24 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> After listening to some of my favourite orchestral music in detail (mostly film scores), I came to realise that they don't often follow a pop style structure.



they do a lot more in recent times because a lot of them come from a beat background and not classical it sounds to me. a lot of music in a modern film i hear is more noise rather than music like sounds for effect.
john wiiliams comes from a classical background and you get more from opening title music from the likes of him. opening title music is what to listen out for because theres no interruption from action and dialogue so they get a free rein. if you have gotten into pop and rock mostly you will have a devil of a time dealing with orchestra based music unless you do some serious study and put in a huge amount of time with that.

george


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## TomJ (Oct 24, 2012)

Many thanks guys.

I'll have a read through those links, KEnk, they're great.

In terms of reading music, I can read notation, just not sight-read. I'm also not fantastic with recognising pitch by ear, something I need to work on.

I'm enjoying the learning process to be honest, I'm actually quite pleased with what I've produced, I would just like to 'take it further' and I seem to have hit a bit of a dip in terms of improving, and I think the problems outlined in my OP highlight the reasons why.

I'll heed the advice here and get to work!

I just finished another piece in-which I tried to stray from the 'chord-progression' style, and whilst it came out ok, it sounds kind of disjointed in my opinion, it doesn't 'flow', kinda sounds like multiple pieces wedged together.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/33057988/The%20Race.mp3


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## Leosc (Oct 24, 2012)

Hey Tom,
I agree, it does sound somewhat disjointed. And there is a reason for it - it's a two minute buildup for something that's yet to be written! It's an appetizer, but without meat and potatoes following, if you get my drift. Part of the reason for that is the background drum beat that repeats on the start of every new measure. That's a typical indication for a musical buildup for our western listening habits. If you repeat that over the whole piece without another musical idea to take it over, the listener will be left unsatisfied. Don't get me wrong: It's good to have a pulse - indeed, it's necessary even - but percussion is usually the least favorable section for that when we're talking modern, partly orchestral music.
Next, I don't seem to be able to discern one foundational musical idea from the piece; Yes, it has instruments playing over the beat, but (to me) it's accompaniment that begs for a strong melodical idea, even if it's "just" step sequenced string section the likes of which Mr. Zimmer et al like to use. And I'm wondering why, because you nailed the basic idea of all composition on the head already: "They seem to 'evolve' or progress, with little or no repetition, with new phrases added and taken away over the duration." That's precisely what it's about, from Bach back then to Williams today, although (calculated, not just conveniently placed) repetition is, indeed, an essential part of it as well. If you're really interested in the inner workings of classical structure and why they "flow" like they do and have read the articles KeNK proposed, then I recommend concentrated, but always joyful! listening to classical sonatas and symphonies. One personal recommendation: Listen to Brahms' fourth symphony (my all-time favorite recording is http://www.dw.de/popups/mediaplayer/contentId_2086933_mediaId_2104090 (this one)), and then hear http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9TinRdrwOU (Lenny Bernstein talk about it), it's always very enlightening... though, as always: All in good time.

Hope I wasn't too harsh.


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## TomJ (Oct 25, 2012)

Thanks Acall, not too harsh at all!

I appreciate the feedback, I can see exactly what you mean, I think that's what I'd noticed but was having trouble putting my finger on it.

I'll have a listen to the links your suggested.

Thanks again


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## George Caplan (Oct 25, 2012)

i would check out sonata forms and maybe try some short works that incorporate small combos that you decide on from the start and stick with just as a practice. 

look at counterpoint and any form of contrapuntal style. otherwise things can get to sound and feel very blocky and wooden.


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