# Media Music: only got a degree in Jazz Composition - I lack the knowledge and it's getting frustrating.



## Ray (Apr 9, 2021)

So, a year and a half ago I got on the Media Composition road with an optimistic attitude, thinking that I could study this on my own.
I don't have enough money for a degree or even for online courses (for the time being), so my strategy was to just listen to the best media music out there: BBC documentaries, DW documentaries, Spark, etc.
Although I find I improved my compositon techniques and musical ideas through these audition sessions, I didn't improve significantly.

My question is, do you think I'm just wasting my time by listening to these soundtracks, and is a course really necessary for Media Music?

* Note - I'm only referring to the actual music composition - how to build something that sounds good - and not to the tricks of the trade (VI programming, etc - those are quite easy for me to grasp from YT videos).

Thank you!


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## cmillar (Apr 9, 2021)

It looks like you live in England....

...so, I'd recommend getting in touch with VI forum member Mike Hewer, a composer who made his mark composing media music in London and is now devoting his time to writing his own music that he wants to compose.

He's done it all, and I'm sure he could guide you in the best direction. Check out his website and listen to his music:





__





Home | Michael Hewer - Composer






mikehewer.com


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## GNP (Apr 9, 2021)

Ray said:


> So, a year and a half ago I got on the Media Composition road with an optimistic attitude, thinking that I could study this on my own.
> I don't have enough money for a degree or even for online courses (for the time being), so my strategy was to just listen to the best media music out there: BBC documentaries, DW documentaries, Spark, etc.
> Although I find I improved my compositon techniques and musical ideas through these audition sessions, I didn't improve significantly.
> 
> ...


The best "lesson" you can ever get is to be able to read what your clients want (as musically-dumb as they are). That's media music for ya.


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## José Herring (Apr 9, 2021)

Ray said:


> So, a year and a half ago I got on the Media Composition road with an optimistic attitude, thinking that I could study this on my own.
> I don't have enough money for a degree or even for online courses (for the time being), so my strategy was to just listen to the best media music out there: BBC documentaries, DW documentaries, Spark, etc.
> Although I find I improved my compositon techniques and musical ideas through these audition sessions, I didn't improve significantly.
> 
> ...


Best thing is to post your music and then get some feedback. Media music isn't some special brand of music but it is a combination of many kinds of music. Whether you lean towards more John Williams (Pop, Jazz, Classical) or Hans Zimmer (Synth, Rock, Classical) ect.... If you study anything study how the guys that really make it put together musical cues. 

You don't really need to go to school for it, I know few people that actually studied "media music".


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## SillyMidOn (Apr 9, 2021)

I've got a jazz degree as well ... and I write a lot of trailer music these days, and generally consider myself a media composer, as I do library music and film scoring as well. When you have a more traditional music degree, be that classical or jazz, you don't get taught any production skills, what an eq is, what a compressor is, how to use it, how to mix, how to make virtual instruments sound realistic etc etc. You can figure all of this out on your own - as a jazzer you should have a REALLY good ear, which means you can work out what it is you are missing. There are also tons of videos online where you can glean useful info, sure, there are a lot of duff ones as well, but it can be done.


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## muk (Apr 9, 2021)

+1 to what José and @SillyMidOn wrote.

My own take is that studying other pieces is important. Writing your own is more important still. The first pieces you write will not be good. Hang in there and write more. If you have a track or two that you think are at least ok, get some feedback. Do this for long enough, and your tracks will improve steadily. No need to take courses for that. You can learn this on your own. Actually, you have to learn this on your own. Because, taking courses or not, you need to put in the work and write a lot of music to improve.

My advise would be to study the best pieces in the field as you are already doing. Then 're-composing' them. Meaning writing your own track with the same mood and the same structure, but filled with your own ideas. Step by step you'll learn what works and what doesn't, which of your ideas are worth pursuing and which aren't. Then you can gradually shift to writing your own pieces that don't follow a guideline track closely. If you start to feel at least a little confidence about a track you wrote, get some feedback from trusted people. The feedback should be kind, but also honest. 
Then it is rinse and repeat, probably for quite some time. Eventually, you will get to a point where it will be feasible to submit your tracks to production music libraries.

At least, that's what my own path in media music looked like. I do have a background in musicology, and I learned to write and produce media music myself in the way described above. No courses taken, and I had no other information or help than what is available on the internet for free.

Good luck to you and enjoy the journey.


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## kclements (Apr 9, 2021)

Write. Write. Write. Write. Write*.

_*All the advice you get may or may not be helpful. But none of it will be useful if you don’t spend a vast majority of your time writing. _


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## Ray (Apr 9, 2021)

cmillar said:


> It looks like you live in England....
> 
> ...so, I'd recommend getting in touch with VI forum member Mike Hewer, a composer who made his mark composing media music in London and is now devoting his time to writing his own music that he wants to compose.
> 
> ...


I live in Romania, actually. That was funny.

But thank you so much for the advice and for mentioning Michael Hewer. I'll see what I can pull out of this!


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## YuyaoSG (Apr 9, 2021)

Oh, please don't give up. Actually, a lot of people want to study Jazz, but only wandering around the door of Jazz. I believe you are very talented, you just need some time to find the right direction.


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## ed buller (Apr 9, 2021)

*it's a tricky question as "media music" is a huge thing. There are so many types. And the stuff that can make you a living is just as varied. A friend had a decent few years off a Drone !...and My biggest paycheck came from something I slapped together in 30 mins. So in all honesty at the entry level all I can say is write.*

*You can do this two ways. And you can do both !. 

Number 1: Pick ten pieces of music you'd like to be able to write. Music that you wish that you understood fluently. Make them reasonably short. No Longer than 5 mins to start with. 

So about 9 years ago I decide that producing records was coming to an end as Lucrative career and wanted to get into media music. I loaded this up into Cubase.



And then spent about a month trying to copy it. The goal was to learn as much as possible. A month later I had a pretty decent clone that fooled a friend who was a TV composer...Job Done. In the process I learned How the harmony worked, How the textures where applied . I picked up some fundamentals Like "Chromatic Mediants" and "Chord Planning". *

*I did this with other cues and pieces too. Over the course of the next three years I spent a lot of time replicating all sorts of music. From Zimmer to Faure. *

*Number 2: give yourself a job. Pick a briefe, ( shampoo commercial ) and give yourself 4 hours to write a 30 second piece. Then imagine that the client suddenly wants "Reggae Elements"....Add them.....then..."Actually could you do this tune as a Viennese waltz ? "...and so on. Do this a lot !...test yourself. Imagine being asked to make it "More medieval" ????

A huge part of the Job is writing to order. 


Lastly and really really important . ALL the music you write for this Job is just serving a purpose. It's to be used to enhance usually picture and dialogue, It's NOT supposed to function in isolation. If It does...bonus...but THAT is NOT it's purpose. So ALL that fancy voice leading and beautiful resolved French 6th chords just don't matter. 

However !.......they might to you. So get good at the music you want to write....but don't be upset if no one wants it !!!!......be able to give them what they DO want

best

ed*


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## babylonwaves (Apr 9, 2021)

think of media music as something that directs and drives emotions. to me, it's all about that, not so much about the "classical" aspects of music. of course you can combine both but in order to tap into medial music, always ask yourself one question first: which emotion do I want to create. what does the content I'm composing for needs?

once that's clear, you can get into chromatic mediants and all that. okay, maybe I simplify a bit too much. I don't really know what you already know ...


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## Ray (Apr 9, 2021)

muk said:


> Then 're-composing' them. Meaning writing your own track with the same mood and the same structure, but filled with your own ideas. Step by step you'll learn what works and what doesn't, which of your ideas are worth pursuing and which aren't.


This is spot on. Thanks a lot, never thought about it, but it makes so much sense.


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## Blackster (Apr 9, 2021)

Hi Ray,

I also agree that writing music is probably the best thing you can do ... 

Also, please don't miss to hop on the (free) "Composition From Scratch" workshop right here:
https://musicintervaltheory.academy/composition-from-scratch/ 

Composing for media is 100% about storytelling, and that's exactly what we focus on inside the Music Interval Theory Academy. I read that you said you can't afford any expenses, fair enough, hop on the workshop, and get some valuable information this way right now, it's free. 

And if you find this useful, please get in touch with me as I might help you even further.


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## Ray (Apr 9, 2021)

babylonwaves said:


> think of media music as something that directs and drives emotions. to me, it's all about that, not so much about the "classical" aspects of music. of course you can combine both but in order to tap into medial music, always ask yourself one question first: which emotion do I want to create. what does the content I'm composing for needs?
> 
> once that's clear, you can get into chromatic mediants and all that. okay, maybe I simplify a bit too much. I don't really know what you already know ...


That's really good advice, thank you. It's true that I sometimes forget about the emotional aspect, as I tend to focus too much on the architectural process.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 9, 2021)

Wait. You got a jazz degree? What else do you think you need? Media composition is painting by numbers and you should be equipped with more than enough knowledge to easily get that stuff down. Just write and write again, listen, compare, analyze, write. Maybe transcribe a thing or two. Write.


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## Blackster (Apr 9, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Wait. You got a jazz degree? What else do you think you need? Media composition is painting by numbers and you should be equipped with more than enough knowledge to easily get that stuff down. Just write and write again, listen, compare, analyze, write. Maybe transcribe a thing or two. Write.


Well ... I'm not quite sure if a degree in Jazz Theory teaches you musical storytelling. Probably it totally depends on your teachers and mentors, but I would not take it for granted. 

We all saw musical geniuses with no degree at all and the opposite as well. But I totally agree with your last line above!


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## Ray (Apr 9, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Wait. You got a jazz degree? What else do you think you need?


Unbelievable, right?
But I tell you, being used to mainly listening to the piano (went mosly piano solo), or at most, the piano, the voice, bass and drums, that's few instruments. Now what about trying to make a piece of music with around 15 instruments (and that's nothing compared to professionals)?
I don't know how to work this out, I just don't have the kind of lasting attention that is needed to make horizontal progress with 10 / 15 instruments at once. I can barely do my thing with 5 instruments (I could only now pinpoint where the problem actually lies).

How do you do that? Seriously.

Thanks for the kind comment and advice, though. Will keep on writing.


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## Blackster (Apr 9, 2021)

Ray said:


> I don't know how to work this out, I just don't have the kind of lasting attention that is needed to make horizontal progress with 10 / 15 instruments at once. I can barely do my thing with 5 instruments (I could only now pinpoint where the problem actually lies).
> 
> How do you do that? Seriously.


You asked the question, I'll give you an option. 

The Music Interval Theory Academy teaches you EXACTLY how to do this!  
Have a look at it, seriously, it's gonna help you a ton! 









Music Interval Theory Academy


We teach a transparent and proven methodology that will help you define your unique musical voice and raise above the generic sound of everybody else.




musicintervaltheory.academy


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## Ray (Apr 9, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Best thing is to post your music and then get some feedback. Media music isn't some special brand of music but it is a combination of many kinds of music. Whether you lean towards more John Williams (Pop, Jazz, Classical) or Hans Zimmer (Synth, Rock, Classical) ect....


Thank you for the feedback.
I actually rarely get my music out there, if it doesn't reach a certain level of "acceptable" I deem it as not worthy. But I'll try to post more.



> If you study anything study how the guys that really make it put together musical cues.


This is what I'm trying, but since I don't have access to higher education/professional online courses (yet) in this field, I'm confined to audition and rendition only. Do you think this will be effective in the long run?


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## Ray (Apr 9, 2021)

Blackster said:


> You asked the question, I'll give you an option.
> 
> The Music Interval Theory Academy teaches you EXACTLY how to do this!
> Have a look at it, seriously, it's gonna help you a ton!
> ...


Thank you! Will check this out.


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## Ray (Apr 9, 2021)

YuyaoSG said:


> Oh, please don't give up. Actually, a lot of people want to study Jazz, but only wandering around the door of Jazz. I believe you are very talented, you just need some time to find the right direction.


Thank you! I assure you, though, that it's not only talent that's needed. I lack the specific knowledge on how to work with multiple instruments at once, in order to complete a coherent musical idea.

I find this really hard.

But well, then again, I'm not really talented - I don't get to hear melodies and harmonies in my mind, say, like Beethoven did  I work with an idea on the spot and try to make it work by "engineering", otherwise the process would be flowy. That's more like lack of talent! Haha. Kidding, but also being serious.


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## YuyaoSG (Apr 9, 2021)

Ray said:


> Thank you! I assure you, though, that it's not only talent that's needed. I lack the specific knowledge on how to work with multiple instruments at once, in order to complete a coherent musical idea.
> 
> I find this really hard.


Based on my experience. 
Here are some advices:
1: Understand the difference between Jazz and media music(film, video or theme orchestra music). This will help you to change the way of thinking about composition and avoiding many problems when you composing.
For me, Jazz has a lot of improvisation and in most cases, melody instruments(piano trumpets or others) are dominant. But the media music (most are orchestra music) is the interactive art between the different large sections( strings, woodwinds, and brass). 
a): Timbre change also needs to be considered in orchestral music. For example, the timbre of the violins and flute play the same melody is different from the timbre of the same melody played by the trumpet and the clarinet. The woodwinds section is the group with the most color tension. Different colors can be combined between different woodwind instruments.

b): The transfer of the melody is also very important, do not always put the melody to one instrument or one instrument section.

c): Try to avoid having one instrument section do everything(Unless you only have one string orchestra section).

2:Finding some orchestra music you like and find the scores. Then, do some mockups. You will learn how to use MIDI technology, familiar with the instrument libraries and chord progression, orchestration from the scores.

3:Trying to compose 1 or 2 minutes piece use what you have learned.

4:Learning orchestra mixing.

5:Repeat all the steps.

Hope these will help you out.

Best,
Yuyao


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## José Herring (Apr 9, 2021)

Ray said:


> This is what I'm trying, but since I don't have access to higher education/professional online courses (yet) in this field, I'm confined to audition and rendition only. Do you think this will be effective in the long run?



Yes, along with any interviews that you can glean for tips. 

Tom Holkenborg has an excellent video series. A must for anybody attempting modern day film/tv/game scoring imo. 



https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCor9SN3lpO-BT2aBvAwBptw


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## cmillar (Apr 10, 2021)

Ray said:


> I live in Romania, actually. That was funny.
> 
> But thank you so much for the advice and for mentioning Michael Hewer. I'll see what I can pull out of this!


Ha! Well anyways....check him out!

His 'long-form' pieces (Symphony, Violin Concerto, etc.) are wonderful. 

He says his recording of 'Symphony' is all virtual. It's an amazing accomplishment when you think about it. Would be great to hear a real orchestra perform it.

We can all get inspired from what Mike is now doing (and has done!)


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## Ray (Apr 11, 2021)

YuyaoSG said:


> Based on my experience.
> Here are some advices:
> 1: Understand the difference between Jazz and media music(film, video or theme orchestra music). This will help you to change the way of thinking about composition and avoiding many problems when you composing.
> For me, Jazz has a lot of improvisation and in most cases, melody instruments(piano trumpets or others) are dominant. But the media music (most are orchestra music) is the interactive art between the different large sections( strings, woodwinds, and brass).
> ...


Thank you so much for this detailed info! 

Indeed, I agree that scoring / orchestral music in general is pretty much about textures and timbres - I mean with those alone you can get something that stands on its own.

Will look through all this and will stick to it, this is really good. Thank you again and all the best to you!


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## Ray (Apr 11, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Yes, along with any interviews that you can glean for tips.
> 
> Tom Holkenborg has an excellent video series. A must for anybody attempting modern day film/tv/game scoring imo.
> 
> ...


Thanks a whole lot!


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## YuyaoSG (Apr 11, 2021)

Ray said:


> Thank you so much for this detailed info!
> 
> Indeed, I agree that scoring / orchestral music in general is pretty much about textures and timbres - I mean with those alone you can get something that stands on its own.
> 
> Will look through all this and will stick to it, this is really good. Thank you again and all the best to you!


I highly recommend you to check out The Planet by Gustav Holst. The Mars chapter can give you information about how to deal with the big brass section and when you composing a big brass section, what will other sections going to do and it will help you deal with action theme music. The Venus chapter can give you information about how to deal with the woodwinds part(timbre, color, etc.). The last chapter, Neptune. To analyze its chord progressions, you will be pleasantly surprised to find that these harmonies are common in the Harry Potter's theme of John Williams. Anyway, hope this helps you too.


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## Markrs (Apr 12, 2021)

ed buller said:


> *it's a tricky question as "media music" is a huge thing. There are so many types. And the stuff that can make you a living is just as varied. A friend had a decent few years off a Drone !...and My biggest paycheck came from something I slapped together in 30 mins. So in all honesty at the entry level all I can say is write.*
> 
> *You can do this two ways. And you can do both !.
> 
> ...



This is great advice Ed, I have bookmarked it so I can easily find it.


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## Ray (Apr 12, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Start simple at first. Your choice of course, but Haydn symphonies from the late 1780's onward are a good place to begin. Haydn developed largely by variation, and a lot of this variation was by texture and re-orchestration.


This is absolutely great because it gives me a specific place to start from.



> It'll teach you about economy of ideas and what you can do with just three basic elements. Sometimes two elements, occasionally four, and rarely, five. If you need examples of how to do this I'll PM some to you.


I might actually need to have some of these PM'd indeed, thank you! Although I already listened 2 minutes worth of 3rd Tchaikovsky symphony (with score ofc) and I might have caught on, but just to make sure. Thanks!
And, regarding this, what do you mean by "instrument choir is the easiest to balance" ?



> So, a good orchestral sketch is one that pretty much "orchestrates" itself.


Totally agree, and if I recall correctly, I've heard this being said a few times during my last university year (we did a brief course on orchestration but it was so dense and rushed that the students barely caught on, myself included).

Thanks for the astonishing amount of info you've put into this post, this is absolutely great and it's going to sit bookmarked along with the other replies as well.

And bonus, yes, we did big band orchestration, but it was as dense and as rushed as the classical orchestration course, so again, I didn't take much away.
I think the main problem I have is with lack of creativity when it comes to textures and nice melodies.


All the best to you and thank you!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 13, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Like I said, start simple. Sometimes new orchestrators want to go right away to the big, fancy and famous "orchestration-y" pieces that have "lots of stuff" in them. But before all that you need to study scores with lots of pure tones, transparency, obvious textures, and less massing. You want to be able to hear everything you see in the score as much as possible. Haydn and Mozart all by themselves will give you a very strong foundation on which to build.
> 
> I'll answer your question about balance when I send you some examples of different types of orchestral-compostion analysis I've done in the past. You alter how you do the analysis depending on your focus for that particular one. It'll prolly be a bit of Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, R. Strauss, Vaughn-Williams, and John Williams (just simple short excerpts for all). Check your pm's sometime this weekend or early next week.


If you’re willing, I think we’d all benefit from this if you could post it here too please 🙏


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## Ray (Apr 14, 2021)

ed buller said:


> *And then spent about a month trying to copy it. The goal was to learn as much as possible. A month later I had a pretty decent clone that fooled a friend who was a TV composer...Job Done. In the process I learned How the harmony worked, How the textures where applied . I picked up some fundamentals Like "Chromatic Mediants" and "Chord Planning".*


Great advice, thank you! I too, at this stage, do musical cloning regularly, so I guess I should continue.
Also, congratulations!



> *Then imagine that the client suddenly wants "Reggae Elements"....Add them.....then..."Actually could you do this tune as a Viennese waltz ? "...and so on. Do this a lot !...test yourself. Imagine being asked to make it "More medieval"*



Haha, will stick this. Thanks for the idea!


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## Ray (Apr 14, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Like I said, start simple. Sometimes new orchestrators want to go right away to the big, fancy and famous "orchestration-y" pieces that have "lots of stuff" in them. But before all that you need to study scores with lots of pure tones, transparency, obvious textures, and less massing. You want to be able to hear everything you see in the score as much as possible. Haydn and Mozart all by themselves will give you a very strong foundation on which to build.
> 
> I'll answer your question about balance when I send you some examples of different types of orchestral-compostion analysis I've done in the past. You alter how you do the analysis depending on your focus for that particular one. It'll prolly be a bit of Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, R. Strauss, Vaughn-Williams, and John Williams (just simple short excerpts for all). Check your pm's sometime this weekend or early next week.


This is surreal, I swear. Thanks a whole lot!
All the best to you for this act of kindness (I really am not used to people helping other people to this specific extent. I'll make sure to pass it on).
Thanks again and I literally can't wait to see what this is about!


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## Ray (Apr 14, 2021)

YuyaoSG said:


> I highly recommend you to check out The Planet by Gustav Holst. The Mars chapter can give you information about how to deal with the big brass section and when you composing a big brass section, what will other sections going to do and it will help you deal with action theme music. The Venus chapter can give you information about how to deal with the woodwinds part(timbre, color, etc.). The last chapter, Neptune. To analyze its chord progressions, you will be pleasantly surprised to find that these harmonies are common in the Harry Potter's theme of John Williams. Anyway, hope this helps you too.


This is super helpful advice!


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## waveheavy (Jan 5, 2022)

Old thread, but here goes. 

Did you know that orchestrating is simply the idea of applying instruments to an already written sketch of simple harmony and a melody? The idea is start simple with something simple, a motif of just a few notes even, then apply chord harmony that works with that. You do this with Jazz composition really, only using more complex chords maybe. With orchestra, you sketch in simple harmony first. You can add more complexity later. 

Once you learn the ranges of the orchestra instruments, you will eventually get in a habit of knowing which instruments can play what you see on the music staves. Orchestration 1 at Berklee Boston will teach you all those ranges and types of instruments and intricacies. 

Then Orchestration 2 gets into how to move the emotions with applying the orchestra instruments, builds, combinations, etc. There's even an excellent short course online called Orchestration Recipes. https://orchestrationrecipes.thinkific.com/


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