# Who is using a guitar instead of a master keyboard ?



## Phil C. (Oct 18, 2013)

Hello everybody,

I'm not sure this is the right place to post my subject, and I don't think I will have a lot of replys, so this is just in case :wink: 

Although this seems to be stupid and/or weird, is there someone that is using a guitar instead of a master keyboard and how ?
I am thinking about the use of differents midi channels and key switches.

Thank you very much.


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## gsilbers (Oct 18, 2013)

i was kinda trying to do it. :S

i bought the ztar and turned out to be a $2k clunker. 

i got a few midi guitars, even the roland pickup and kept trying all of the options. 

so far the best imo for input entry on a DAW was the fender mustang midi guitar. damn thing couldnt look more like a toy but it was the easiest to input notes/general sequencing. 

the yourock guitar was ok, also very toy looking. but it was hard to play with the sensitivity and missed notes. 
but i am waiting on this puppy to come out
http://www.yourockguitar.com/component/ ... rticle/200

then there is the roland pikcup (axiom/gi20)
and it is way to much of a pain of the ass. there is way too many ghost notes, sensitivity sucks and imo just doesnt work for DAW sequencing. cool for on stage stuff. 

the new boy in town and dont know why no one did this before but this
http://jamorigin.com/midi-guitar/
is very good. and better than the roland setup. 
although i would recommend havnig the software on the app/ipad or another pc. but if you routed through the standalone is fine. 

besides the technical part im always looking for the the type of chords and progressions to make my sequencign playing be more like film and less like pop since imo i think composing with guitar yuo easily fall into "common" chords and note progressions thats brings too much attentions to it and specific feelings thats related to pop culture. 
so i am trying to get away from bar chords and trying alternative tunnings and so on. 

with all that said, ive find that simple inputting in the daw a regular keyboard is quicker.


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## chimuelo (Oct 18, 2013)

I just use a Guitar, but for really good fingerpicking stuff a Guitar library from a developer who plays is very useful.
Orange Tree has quite a few where it's obvious the man jammed in the life before.
But for the boring one note solos and crunching rhythms, I tried strumming loops, etc. and vomitted, so back to the SG Standard and DSP Plugs.
Oh and yes keyswitching effects combos using hardware foot switchers as playing any instrument requires 2 hands.


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## Phil C. (Oct 18, 2013)

Hi everybody,

And thank you for your replys.

Basicaly I am a guitar player, currently I am working with the Jam Origin MIDI GUITAR, wich is not perfect but work nicely. On the other hand, this is still a beta version.
I wrote them this morning, their top priority now is to extend the range of detection for the bass (I also play a 5 strings bass, so really interested :wink: ).

chimuelo, i am not a great at finguerpiking, most of the time I use a pick although I also use the finguers for some arpegios, but this is good enough for what i'm doing.

When it comes to guitar or bass sounds, I record myself playing, I use the vsts for the other things (strings, keyboards,etc.)

gdilbers, you are right,even if you master the chord voicings, there is a lot of things that cannot be done on a guitar.

The other thing that I will certainly buy someday is a foot controller, something that allows me to change the keyswitch or the midi channel on the fly.

Has anyone tried the Fishman Triple Play ?


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## gsilbers (Oct 18, 2013)

i think the beringer looks good for that
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/FCB1010.aspx

as frot he chord voicing ive been trying to use those weird inverions ive learned at berklee that thought id never use again  
and also chord progressions which dont follow the resolutions to keep or at least the chord tones resolve. 

i use finger picking since im mostly a classical guitar player so ive been doign the fingerpikcing for those action spicc passages. would do like alternating 2 notes of a bar chord with a strings 1 and then another 2 notes on the same bar chord and alternating differently or diong little links and so on for each strign section. 
so i enjoy the fingerpikcing a lot but since most midi guitar layers usually use the midi guitar on electrinc guitar it was ghard for me to find a good midi guitar that allowed finger pikcing


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## Phil C. (Oct 18, 2013)

Thank you for the behringer foot controler, it's cheap, and it makes the job.

I also started with classical guitar, this is where my arpegio technique is coming from.
But know, it's complicate for me to play them if I don't hold a pick with my first finger of the right hand...






Have you tried something like this Godin ? It's using nylon strings and has the neck spacing of a classical guitar :http://www.godinguitars.com/godinmultgrconsap.htm


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## gsilbers (Oct 18, 2013)

you know, i was always interested in the godin but it uses the roland/axiom pikcup and since i found the other countroller and didnt like the electric with the roland hex i kinda didnt go too much into it. trying it at guitar center (shop here in the US) its just such a hassle that ive just never had that much interest to keep persuing this. i might start looking into it again, maybe ive passed exactly what i needed


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## Phil C. (Oct 18, 2013)

I understand, I never bought a guitar that I couldn't try.
I guess it's the same in every guitar shop in the world when it comes to try a guitar. :wink:


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## Markus Kohlprath (Oct 18, 2013)

I can recommend using Jam Origin midi guitar with classical guitar. I take the di signal of a piezo pu or transducer and it triggers the midi notes really well. At least as well as the electric if not even better (not so much ghost notes). It´s not suggested by them but works very well for me.

cheers 
markus


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## Phil C. (Oct 18, 2013)

Hi Markus,
My electric guitar includes a piezo pickup and the tracking works really well with the Jam Origin midi guitar indeed.


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## KingIdiot (Oct 18, 2013)

ztar - which has largely been a 4 grand custom build waste of money. The fact that it's non standard spacing makes it uncomfortable to play, and the velocity sensitivity was never something I could get used to. I did love the ability to do close voiced chords and the tight tracking of pitch via buttons, as well as the ability to send each "string" to another channel. Once the power blew in the guitar itself though, I never sent it back to get fixed, since I rarely used it. I keep it around in hopes of maybe fixing it and looking like an pretentious idiot at a live show. (Harvey is a great uy though, and the units been something a lot of people love, it's just not what I'd hoped for myself)

Variax with Roland pickup and VG setup. Works well, but I'm going to bevel the pickup placement a little more, beause it's too high for me and buzzes out on the action I like sometimes. I have to play too "perfectly" that it kills most nuance. Great for glissandos tho.

Melodyne. works really well if you spend time making it detect correctly

both the roland and the melodyne approach needs some MIDI clean up work

if you're working on single lines, most of the DAWs have a basic feature to translate transients into MIDI on/off data and then you can place them onto the right notes after the fact. great for single lines.

I've spent time looking into other options, like the kickstarter project one, and don't have the money anymore to go tracking down the best anymore. I also have some pretty radical ideas on my own that I would love to have built that would do perfect tracking IMO, and not that expensive. Just requires some actual programmers and initial design. Built on existing tech, and most importantly, could be used with any guitar. Getting the initial build to even get to the kickstarter point is money and time I don't have though.

(it is in fact something that could be translated to a few different instruments, and is somethign I thought up for sample production efficiency, maybe I should find someone at roland to pitch to)


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## gsilbers (Oct 18, 2013)

Markus Kohlprath @ Fri Oct 18 said:


> I can recommend using Jam Origin midi guitar with classical guitar. I take the di signal of a piezo pu or transducer and it triggers the midi notes really well. At least as well as the electric if not even better (not so much ghost notes). It´s not suggested by them but works very well for me.
> 
> cheers
> markus



oh man.ive completly forgot i had a piezzo pickup installed in my classical. im giong try out the classical with the jam origin and see if it works. which each should , its just pitch to midi detection.


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## Danielo (Oct 19, 2013)

Now this is a topic near & dear to my heart... :wink: 

What everyone else said, but I will add my two cents:

- YouRock guitar - sometimes use it if I need to input a fast synth part with no concern for dynamics/modulation. I agree with what was said, very much a toy, but great for such parts because without strings I find my fretting speed is faster.

- Roland GI-20 - used with both Godin Multiac and stock Roland pickup. Slightly better tracking on Godin, but not enough to justify keeping the extra guitar around. Stock Roland pickup OK, but does need to be cleaned up in DAW (as do all these methods). Use this for Melodic parts where I want to use a VI that requires Modulation/Volume control - such as the PocketBlakus Cello in this piece:

https://soundcloud.com/daniel-ottini/nightcrawler

As an aside, some DAWs seem to track better with different Guitar MIDI controllers than others - for Example, the Roland system is best on DP8, while the YouRock is unusable on DP8, but fine on Ableton. This is often because of the amount of data the controller spews out and if you need it to work on a particular DAW, you can usually thin the data being sent in some manner.

- Melodyne works very well for pre-recorded guitar parts and I often use this to transfer something I sketched out on a guitar to MIDI for further work in a DAW. This method definitely requires tweaking (which can be both good and bad), but at least all those bum notes with be in tune :lol: 

- Haven't bothered with the Ztar for the reasons already noted...I am surprised at the glowing comments for the Jam Origin, I will have to try this (though I have yet to be impressed with a straight software solution). Some people swear by the (fairly) new Fishman Triple Play, but doesn't seem to me to be much better than the Roland system (you just don't have to buy all the additional Roland gear).

At the end of the day, I have yet to toss my (Korg Microkey) keyboard - there are some things that are just more practical to do on a keyboard (for example, a one note held drone)...for that matter there are some things that can be better done on other controller types (like drums on a drumpad). Each controller has its own +/- and I don't mind the variety (I will write a part much differently on a MIDI Guitar than a keyboard which I think "shakes things up" when I compose rather than had I only played one or the other)

I think ultimately I try to choose the right controller for the job...I think if you go with this mindset, its less of a struggle than the "all or nothing" mentality (i.e. learn to play Keyboard OR only use MIDI Guitar, etc.)

Cheers


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## Aquatone (Oct 19, 2013)

I use several methods of MIDI input - keyboard, guitar, V-drum, and mouse.

For guitar, the TriplePlay system is fantastic. Wireless MIDI is great on a guitar. I was on the Beta test team. I have two Roland systems. TriplePlay is the best. It will do more the just MIDI input. It was designed as a live performance tool. The key is the software. However, the hardware was really well thought out and a step forward. And, cleaning up the MIDI is a thing of the past but you do have to play it well. The little weird extra notes that Roland systems were famous for are gone. The software is standalone or plugin. Working standalone will control the pickup parameters while just allowing MIDI to any DAW the same way. As a plugin or performance tool, it is a multichannel MIDI guitar rig with any VI or amp modeling you got.

Someone mentioned Godin. Great stuff. They are using TriplePlay systems on some of their guitars. Nice all in one solution. In the past, their nylon guitars (which utilized Fishman transducers and Roland MIDI) offered the best tracking and accuracy but the TriplePlay has surpassed. Fishman and Godin have worked quite closely over the years.

Having said all that, I use keyboard 80% of the time. The patches and VIs from companies are designed with keyboards in mind. I have optimized many patches for MIDI guitar and the results are great. There is a third party software solution for Kontakt and MIDI guitar input. I think it's a script to optimize performance. Can't remember the name.

Use all depends on what you need for the part you are playing and what format you are most musical with. Other times, just a change of input method can be inspiring. Some parts are more expressive on a keyboard, some with guitar. Some things just work better for different situations. If you are a good guitar player you can hit keyswitches and such. One can even use a foot controller (pedals or organ bass pedals) for keyswitch. With MIDI guitar one patch and an expression pedal can get the job done for legato lines. Any short notes could later be keyswitched.

To sum up, I'm mainly a guitar player but MIDI is it's own instrument to be learned. Mouse, keyboard, or guitar, etc. are just interfaces. Go with the one that you can be the most musical with. You can't get much better the TriplePlay. But, some people can play the "mouse" better than some can play a MIDI controller.

Good luck.


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## GdT (Oct 24, 2013)

You might like to consider the Sonuus i2M musicport—MIDI Converter & Hi-Z USB Audio Interface.
http://www.sonuus.com/products_i2m_mp.html
Basically you plug in any guitar in one end, USB in the other and you get MIDI input.
It does have limitations, it is monophonic. I have one - it works ok, but I haven't used it much.
Very good value compared with the MIDI guitars etc.
By the way I have no connection with Sonuus.


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## Stinki (Dec 22, 2013)

Is anybody using their guitar controller to track vocal samples? 
I am wondering how eg Voices of Passion would sound.


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## thebob (Dec 22, 2013)

gsilbers @ Fri Oct 18 said:


> besides the technical part im always looking for the the type of chords and progressions to make my sequencign playing be more like film and less like pop since imo i think composing with guitar yuo easily fall into "common" chords and note progressions thats brings too much attentions to it and specific feelings thats related to pop culture.
> .



It's the exact opposite for me :lol: 
I'd say it more generally totally shapes and structures the way one bring ideas forth (because of different habits and ergonomics), and I would use guitar or keyboard according to my composition goals. 

But I have to say that I bought a better keyboard not long after midi guitar gears : in a lot of cases, if not most, yep, it's quicker with the keyboard somehow. 


A huge limitation for me is the way I play guitar : I don't play clean, and don't want to. I found my own way and am fine with it, playing more with the sound and "motor tension" than with the notes somehow (I've been into noisy and electroacoustic music more than "clean" stuffs). 
Obvisouly, it is a serious disadvantage for the midi world. But I'll progressively find my way in mixing both worlds. I think I'll write matlab scripts to make the cleaning job for compositions purposes, and some scripting with different softwares to tune the way I play with the way Midi gear responds to it. 


I haven't launch *JamOrigin* since 0.8 I think. but at the time, *Triple Play* seemed a lot better for me. really nice piece of gear, and extremely convenient to use. 

Finally, regarding the behringer *FCB1010*, it does the job for cheap. 
Though, I preferred to add a Roland *FC300* to my rig. more expensive, less pedals, but it takes less space and the construction and the ergonomics are better. I actually use both : one to control my DAW when I sit at the keyboard (FCB), the other when I play guitar, next to my other effects (roland FC). 


all in all, I really second Aquatone entire post.


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## germancomponist (Dec 22, 2013)

I did this 10 years ago sometimes. 

And about the guitar chords, it can sound very cool when you play, for example, brass instruments. All guitar strings with a different midi channel to a different instrument... .


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## wst3 (Dec 23, 2013)

I am still trying to adapt to a world where I can do the majority of my MIDI input with something that behaves more like a guitar than a keyboard.

Currently I have two guitar controllers:
1) A Yamaha G10/G10c - it works quite well, but it is a dog to play, and you have to wear headphones because the sound of six "G-strings" slightly detuned will drive you batty.

2) A "collection" of gear based around the Roland 24 pin standard - a G303 guitar driving a GR-300. The signals for the six strings are picked up after the individual compressors, and feed an IVL Pitchrider 7000. This could probably be any pitch to MIDI converter (e.g. Roland, Axion, etc), but since I already have two of the Pitchriders that's what I use. And it too works, not quite as cleanly as the Yamaha, but it's a real guitar, and I have 24 pin pickups I can put on other guitars when I am so moved.

I also have some 13 pin gear, but I haven't found it to be terribly usable for MIDI input yet.


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