# Spirit of the Stour - Fit for public consumption?



## alphabetgreen (Jan 25, 2009)

Okay, no replies. That's a blessing in disguise because I've just improved it. I seem to have had some really good results with a few trial and error actions I've just undertaken. 

I've restructured the reverb settings, blended Miroslav Chamber Strings with HALion (that really worked well, I think) and changed the para EQ settings as well, plus more expression and more balance mixing and more expression and more....etc.

http://www.box.net/shared/he3k2z4s66

I honestly don't think that this can be improved upon now.

Cheers,

Simon

_(I apologise for the last boldish statement, but I'm really trying to attract some sort of negative feedback that will enable me to improve this. If it is going out on my new website, I have to get it right, no matter how long it takes me)._


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 25, 2009)

Jesus! I guess I should be a bit more careful when I ask for 'negative' feedback..lol.

However, I've been told that this is the site where the best producers are, so you obviously have very high standards... and, if you had listened to all of the piece, you may have changed your mind about the existence of dynamics, because I feature them prominently throughout (at least I think so).

Okay, I'm beginning to realise that my sample libraries aren't great at the moment, but I'm stuck with them for the time being so all I can do is make the best of them.

But thanks anyway. You've certainly given me something to think about!

Cheers,

Simon


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## Hannes_F (Jan 26, 2009)

I did not really understand why you picked up the Halion. If I had to decide for an entry level low budget but quality sound orchestra then either EWQLSO silver or VSL special edition would be my choice.

That being said I think you did not use what you already have to the maximum, more like 30 % of it.

Ray's version sounds much better overall, so my question is what are you listening to your music on?


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 26, 2009)

Hello Hannes,

It was actually Miroslav that was my 'entry level' library, and it was a present. Before then, I was using a Roland JV1010 with an orchestral expansion card, so you can imagine how highly I rated Miroslav at the time (I still do to a certain extent).
It's only since I've started creating digital mockups of my compositions using organic samples, that I've even heard of VSL and EWQLSO, and I have the internet to thank for that. Everybody needs to start somewhere.

I picked up HALion for the string versatility and xfade function, and it was recommended to me by someone on this forum as good value (£200 for trade-in package). However, after hindsight, I feel that the VSL might have been the better option. It will certainly be my next choice. I don't personally like EWQLSO. I know everybody else does, but their sound isn't for me.

Hannes, I don't wish to sound ungrateful, but saying that I am only using 30% of my software and stopping at that isn't really very helpful. Where can I find access to the other 70% of redundant technology and how do I use it? 

I've posted to this forum because the two other forums are just praising me to the skies and it's not really what I'm after either, although it does give me enough confidence to continue. I really am seeking advice here, rather than opinion. Is that such a bad thing?

I know that Riffwraith was a bit more direct, even brutal, in his reply. But at least he's given me something to work on.

Thanks for stopping by anyway,

Simon


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## rayinstirling (Jan 26, 2009)

I don't want to but I can't help myself

http://www.raymondkemp.com/Simon/Spirit_of_the_Stour.mp3 (http://www.raymondkemp.com/Simon/Spirit ... _Stour.mp3)


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 26, 2009)

Thanks Ray,

I'm not quite sure what for, but thanks. Yes, aren't VSL good?

Simon

p.s. It sounds like one of those old Elgar recordings. Why does the flautist and oboist sound as if their mouths are slipping?


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## Richard Wilkinson (Jan 26, 2009)

- are you the same guy who thought the Harry Potter scores used sampled orchestras?

I don't want to sound too condescending, but maybe a big chunk of critical listening might help. Pick some short (4-8 bar) snippets from real recordings, import them into your DAW & try to get as close as possible using your software - just on those few bars. Then you can learn the strengths & weaknesses of the stuff you have at the moment.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 26, 2009)

alphabetgreen @ Mon Jan 26 said:


> Hannes, I don't wish to sound ungrateful, but saying that I am only using 30% of my software and stopping at that isn't really very helpful. Where can I find access to the other 70% of redundant technology and how do I use it?



Simon,

I meant you are probably only using 30 % (perhaps even less) of the sonic possibilities that your samples would have if you just had some more excercise in using them. That is not bad because the concept of using controls for volume shaping is new to you, so you can expect to gain much more skill with training.

Look at an individual note like a cartoon animal: it has a head, a belly and a tail. This is the attack of the note, its devolution and its ending. Those three elements are always present for somebody that plays a woodwind, brass or string instrument, so they are very upfront in conciousness as well if you wish to render these instruments with samples.

As a consequence you need to ride your volume control almost constantly to really _play_ the instruments. For excercise try to start and end every note with zero volume, thus making a little individually shaped hill envelope. The sample is just your raw material, and you are the sculptor. With time you will learn when the envelope can start or end with a value that is different from zero.

As you may notice this concept is very different from piano playing. Therefore it is something not very many people can handle.

What makes things better or worse sometimes is that some samples already have their own attack, devolution and tail which is perfect if you have found a sample that simply does what you meant. However in most cases you will need to re-shape the sample, for example giving it a stronger accent, a shorter duration etc.

If you can make nice sounding single notes you can transfer the concept to tied notes. Of course the intensity does not go to zero between two tied notes, but _something_ will happen before, at and after the transition.

Then, and related to that, comes the phrase. This is what your production would probably benefit most from - playing the phrases. You make a volume devolution that ties a whole prase together. For that you need to decide. You have to make your mind up about every single note: is it stronger or weaker than its predecessor? And if so, why?

We have a musical term in german that is called "Binnendynamik". The english translation would probably be 'interior dynamics'. What we mean are those little nuances that are not necessarily written in the score but are always there when playing lines. Everything is coming from something or going to something. And also it is dependent on the context. A viola line may shine up for short while the melody is holding a long note. A horn note could be accented to make clear 'that it is there' but dive under immediatly not to thicken up everything. And so on and so on.

In order to do that you need to make a lot of musical decisions. As you have noticed it can be very time-consuming, more than actually writing. But with training it gets better and better ... and the best thing is this: Since it sharpens your musical instincts it can actually even improve the writing itself.

After you master that you could begin to work with more advanced techniques like mixing different libraries, EQing, mixing solo strings into a section etc. But I would reccommend that you only begin with that after you have good monitors or else you will some day listen to your stuff from that time and say "Gosh, now I understand what they have been talking about all the time". At least this is what happened to me, hehe.


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 26, 2009)

wilx @ Mon 26 Jan said:


> - are you the same guy who thought the Harry Potter scores used sampled orchestras?
> 
> I don't want to sound too condescending, but maybe a big chunk of critical listening might help. Pick some short (4-8 bar) snippets from real recordings, import them into your DAW & try to get as close as possible using your software - just on those few bars. Then you can learn the strengths & weaknesses of the stuff you have at the moment.



Yeah, sorry if I sounded a bit naive (or 'was' being a better verb). But that's really not a bad idea. I have a full score and a studio recording of Mendelssohn's 4th symphony.

One question though. How do I chop up an mp 3, after I've ripped it. And then, is it possible to import a portion of it into Cubase as an 'audio'?

Condescending my a**e. That really is a _brilliant_ idea! Thanks!

Simon


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 26, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Mon 26 Jan said:


> alphabetgreen @ Mon Jan 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Hannes, I don't wish to sound ungrateful, but saying that I am only using 30% of my software and stopping at that isn't really very helpful. Where can I find access to the other 70% of redundant technology and how do I use it?
> ...



Thanks Hannes, that's great.

As it happens, I'm actually just creating volume envelopes at the moment. Now that I come to think of it, if you imagine a string or wind player (or even worse an ensemble of players), to hold a long note at the _exact same volume throughout _would be practically impossible. But that's exactly what a sample does (or some samples, as you say), so of course it needs to be changed. On the latest mock-up, in the first comment above, I've actually made volume envelopes on the notes played by the woodwind at the beginning, using cc11. Maybe it's a bit too subtle. Anyhow, I'm doing it with the strings at the moment.

And yes, good monitors is a good (essential) idea, but with the average price being £500 and upwards, I'm having to cope with a pair of Sennheiser HD 465s at the moment (which is better than computer speakers, but not ideal all the same).

However, that idea about importing a snippet of Mendelsohhn's music into Cubase, and trying to emulate it is a fabulous idea!

Cheers,

Simon


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## RiffWraith (Jan 26, 2009)

alphabetgreen @ Mon Jan 26 said:


> However, that idea about importing a snippet of Mendelsohhn's music into Cubase, and trying to emulate it is a fabulous idea!



Yes it is. Another thing you can do in addition, is import your pal's old EWQLSO Gold/Wallander mix and use that as a comparison as well. Reson being, is you are never going to get your piece to sound like a real orchestra, and it isn't a bad idea to do a comparison to something that is a bit closer to what you are going to wind up with, in addition to a comparison to the real thing.

Sorry if I was a bit too direct; I guess that is one of my flaws. But you got an honest opinion - if maybe not enough tact.

Let us eknow how you progress.

Cheers.


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## rayinstirling (Jan 26, 2009)

RiffWraith @ Mon Jan 26 said:


> Another thing you can do in addition, is import your pal's old EWQLSO Gold/Wallander mix and use that as a comparison as well. Reson being, is you are never going to get your piece to sound like a real orchestra, and it isn't a bad idea to do a comparison to something that is a bit closer to what you are going to wind up with, in addition to a comparison to the real thing.



Well I'm revisiting that mix because it wasn't as good as I feel I should be able to achieve with it, so! I'm using Simon piece here as a test bed for my education in mixing vi-orchestration. Hopefully in less that 50 hours.

Thanks Simon!


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 26, 2009)

Not a problem, thanks for the advice.

Simon

p.s. How does one chop up an mp 3 that's been ripped from a CD?


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## jc5 (Jan 26, 2009)

alphabetgreen @ Mon Jan 26 said:


> Not a problem, thanks for the advice.
> 
> Simon
> 
> p.s. How does one chop up an mp 3 that's been ripped from a CD?



See if your sequencer can import mp3s - most of them do. If so you can chop it up the same as a wav file.
For the purpose though, I would recommend reripping as a full uncompressed wav - your goal is to match the sonics and expression, the mp3s compression artefacts are best left out (admitedly, they may be minimal - but it is good practice to work from the best source possible).


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 26, 2009)

jc5 @ Mon 26 Jan said:


> alphabetgreen @ Mon Jan 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Not a problem, thanks for the advice.
> ...



Ok, I'll give it a shot. Thanks for your help.


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 27, 2009)

Please allow me to thank Riffwraith and Hannes F for their remarks, as my marcato strings at the beginning of the work use to sound like this:

http://www.box.net/shared/9kvjcg7822

......but now sound like this:

http://www.box.net/shared/za0qtr9u0p

So, as you can see, I am getting a lot out of this forum and in particularly this discussion, so please keep the remarks (however derogatory) coming.

I remain, your obediant servant,

Cheers

Simon


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Jan 27, 2009)

While there is improvement, it is minimal at best. The second excerpt sounds very annoyingly out of tune at places.

Keep at it! Oh and really really consider getting a better library ASAP. VSL SE Standard would probably suit your needs best as you're mostly writing rather 'classical' music.


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## madbulk (Jan 27, 2009)

Silver costs 175 bucks! I don't have it but somebody could probably throw this figure together for you in five minutes and you'll be in your car to buy it before the mp3 finishes.


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 27, 2009)

Thanks,

I will be getting VSL as soon as I can reasonably afford it.

Is there a VSL edition that would work with these specifications? I've already upgraded my RAM and Soundcard, and I can't afford to do it again.

1.8 ghtz intel core 2 duo
2.5 gb RAM
250 gb hard drive
M-Audio 2496 sound card.

Cheers,

Simon


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 27, 2009)

madbulk @ Tue 27 Jan said:


> Silver costs 175 bucks! I don't have it but somebody could probably throw this figure together for you in five minutes and you'll be in your car to buy it before the mp3 finishes.



I think I would prefer VSL. There's something about EWQLSO that puts off a bit. Maybe it's the natural reverb or the 'Hollywood' sound or something.


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Jan 27, 2009)

2.5G RAM is going to be tight for bigger arrangements, but you can always bounce some tracks to audio to free up RAM. Also, using a second HDD (even a cheap external USB drive would suffice for just VSL SE and smaller arrangements) for samples is a
very good idea. Considering your limited hardware, you will find it hard to set up a smooth workflow, but the workarounds I mentioned above should set you well on your way to better production.


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Jan 27, 2009)

alphabetgreen @ Tue Jan 27 said:


> This is my latest offering. I'm working on it all the time.
> 
> http://www.box.net/shared/rlkttkg0i3



Take some time off to clear your ears and mind. Right now the improvement is next to unnoticeable, which could very well be because your ears are really used to the way it sounds already and your reluctance to make more drastic changes to the sound.

The envelopes you made sound like copies of each other. More variety is the key to a more 'human' sound. Also some of the envelopes have an unnatural crescendo at the end of a note followed by a sudden release, which might very well be a conscious decision, but it sounds very mechanical and rather unnerving to me.


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Jan 27, 2009)

alphabetgreen @ Tue Jan 27 said:


> Thanks Mikhel,
> 
> You're absolutely right.
> 
> The envelopes aren't actually copies of each other but they do take the same shape, mostly. If it's a short note, I just created a downward slope to create the attack. However, you are absolutely spot on about the long notes. I've drawn a short downward slope at the beginning to define the note, brought it up for a crescendo up until just before the end, and then immediately brought it down, like you said. If it's that obvious, then I'm gonna have to have a bit of a rethink, maybe listen to some live CDs.



I don't mean to nitpick, but it's spelt Mihkel. Common mistake for native english speakers though, so no bother.

Listening to live CD's is a good idea, especially because performing musicians tend to think of phrasing a lot more than single notes, which is exactly what you should be thinking of when creating your envelopes (of course some of the notes might need an extra bit of curve in the volume/expression/xfade envelopes to really nail it).

Meanwhile, I think it might be a good idea to put learning production in the background and focus more on composing new material or listening to recordings of the type of music and sound you are trying to create. While you can definitely learn a lot from using your current libraries, you might find that once you get your hands on a higher quality product you no longer need to go through some of the tedious work you needed to do before in order to have your final product sound good.

Listening to recordings is also an invaluable method of learning, although it might not seem so at first. But in time you will start to notice details about the mix, panning and placement and possibly also a number of 'cheap tricks' used over and over again to produce a certain sound or effect in a particular style of music. Once you can successfully recreate these effects with your gear you're half on your way to success.


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 27, 2009)

synergy543 @ Tue 27 Jan said:


> OK, here's another one for you to study since you expressed an interest in VSL. This is useful beyond VSL though so you should get something out of it now.
> 
> http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorial ... /index.php
> 
> OK, now tell me how to solve my financial difficulties OK?  They want 3 grand to repaint the hood (bonnet for you Brits) of my BMW 5-series. So what should I do, let it rust or stop buying VSL upgrades?



Thanks for the link. I'm going there straight I've finished this comment.

3 grand? There has to be a cheaper method of corrosion prevention than having the WHOLE bonnet resprayed. And depending on what VSL edition you have already, the top VSL library (orchestra only) is £4,500, so if you have the regular cube, I'd upgrade to this model, unless you want saxophones and stuff. The links here:

http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/shop/flyp ... ct_id/6794


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 27, 2009)

Thanks Mihkel,

Normally I'd agree, but at the moment, my priority is to get some sort of passable mock-up loaded on to my website for now. I already have a good collection of compositions (although I'm still writing a new symphony at the moment). Obviously, I will improve them as time passes, and as my products and skill improve.

The reason I've posted here, is because no matter how good I think my work sounds, or no matter how good the other forums think they are, I know that there will always be room for improvement if I post them here, as this discussion has so proved.


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Jan 27, 2009)

alphabetgreen @ Tue Jan 27 said:


> Thanks Mihkel,
> at the moment, my priority is to get some sort of passable mock-up loaded on to my website



As a demo reel? I'm not sure what your ultimate goal is, but for most branches of the industry, the quality of your mock-ups is substandard. You are obviously skilled in composition, but most of your pieces are very long and the poor sound quality is quite off-putting to listen to for a longer period of time. Perhaps combining snippets of your compositions' most interesting bits would be a better idea. Sure you'd be destroying form, but people are not going to care about that until they can actually enjoy the sound itself (and most won't care even then).

Feel free to correct me here if you are simply uploading the material for the general audience instead, but for a demo reel you should showcase your best material and only your best material. No serious producer-director-whatever is willing to listen to a full scale opera in near-GeneralMidi quality.


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 27, 2009)

Ha ha, a full scale opera?

I'm not sure that I am correcting you, but it is more or less for the general audience. I'm advertising my services as teacher of composition, plus, I am in the process of sending my scores to various orchestras, who can hear the music just by reading the score anyway, so a 'substandard' mock-up isn't going to hurt at all, at least I don't think so.

From what I can gather, the general audience, so far, have been very approving. But that doesn't mean to say that they can't be improved, hence my presence here.


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 27, 2009)

Thanks. As long as I know that I have the power to make my music sound better, then I will continue to strive for better production. In fact, I am hoping to sell mp 3s of my music on my website eventually, and people aren't going to pay for bad production.


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Jan 27, 2009)

In that case you might be interested in visiting Hetoreyn's website. He's been doing a podcast for VSL for a couple of years, the podcasts are filled with information about mixing, panning, using VSL, Altiverb and other reverbs, interviews with composers and VSL staff and much more. Also most podcasts have a composition showcase, where he plays either his own music or music that people have sent in, most of it produced with VSL. Nice way to hear lots of mock-ups without searching different websites. 

He also sells his music online or as CD's and there's info on how to go about doing that in the podcasts aswell. Most of the mixing and production tips are mainly for beginners so it should suit you quite well and give you a bunch of new ideas. 

Anyway, you can find his site at http://www.elvenmusic.com. There's an archive of all the podcasts on the site.


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 27, 2009)

Mihkel @ Tue 27 Jan said:


> In that case you might be interested in visiting Hetoreyn's website. He's been doing a podcast for VSL for a couple of years, the podcasts are filled with information about mixing, panning, using VSL, Altiverb and other reverbs, interviews with composers and VSL staff and much more. Also most podcasts have a composition showcase, where he plays either his own music or music that people have sent in, most of it produced with VSL. Nice way to hear lots of mock-ups without searching different websites.
> 
> He also sells his music online or as CD's and there's info on how to go about doing that in the podcasts aswell. Most of the mixing and production tips are mainly for beginners so it should suit you quite well and give you a bunch of new ideas.
> 
> Anyway, you can find his site at http://www.elvenmusic.com. There's an archive of all the podcasts on the site.



Mihkel, I just can't thank you enough for that. I've been looking for something like this for a long long time.

I really am extremely grateful. Thanks a million.

Simon


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Jan 27, 2009)

No problem, that's what the forums are here for.

You might also want to check out the forums at VSL website, if only for some of mixing
and production ideas and a lot of nice music in the orchestration-composition section.


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 27, 2009)

Will do, thanks again.


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## R. Soul (Jan 27, 2009)

alphabetgreen @ Tue Jan 27 said:


> Which reminds me. Are you the one who recommended "A Guide to MIDI Orchestration"? I was at the bookshop today, about to order it, when I was told that it was £45.00+ (I didn't have that much money). Having said that, if it really is that good, I'm prepared to save up for it. Is it?



If you are ever in London, let me know. You can have mine for £30. I think I've only read about 30 pages - so it's as good as new. 
I figured I'm hopeless when it comes to orchestral music :oops:


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 27, 2009)

Sure, I'll think on it. I want to know if it's exactly what I want first. That VSL link might be just what I'm looking for.


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## synergy543 (Jan 27, 2009)

Simon, also, take a look at P.23 of your Miroslav manual on assigning MIDI controllers. This is the page with the golden answers for you. The assignments are quite flexible so that you could assign a controller to affect both volume and the filter at the same time for really quite good expressive control. For example, try a patch with strings using the mod wheel to control both vol (0-127)+filter (400-12,000). This should give you a wide range of expression. Thus, there is no reason you cannot emulate many of the expressive techniques shown on Beat-Kaufmann's VSL tutorial.

And as someone suggested earlier, try making a very short expressive phrase first rather than a symphony. Make the phrase breath and come alive with expression. Then emulate a very short section from a CD of someone else's symphony (and compare expression)....then go back to your own. 

Your green world will have a new radiant color if you follow what's been said in this thread and in Beat's tutorial.

P.S. I don't think "A Guide to MIDI Orchestration" will enlighten you much although its a fun read - no details on the programming aspects your lacking.


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 27, 2009)

Thanks, you just saved me £45. Don't tell me, you've found another to seal your bonnet.

What does the filter actually do, out of interest.


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## synergy543 (Jan 27, 2009)

The filter controls the frequency response. As an instrument plays harder, the upper frequencies tend to become more intense. This is why using a slight amount of filter along with volume can give you more expression - of course it depends upon the instrument.

I just bought a cover for the car (no room in the garage) so I'll worry about the bonnet next year.

For more tips on Miro, have a look here:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... sc&start=0


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 27, 2009)

Nice one. I'll check it out.

Ironically, it's the KVR forum that has been praising 'Spirit of the Stour' to the heavens. Which is nice, but not as useful.


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## synergy543 (Jan 27, 2009)

I think the focus of most musicians on KVR is slightly different (more pop oriented). You're a composer, use your ears and you decide...its not a beauty contest.

And if there's a way to make it sound better, then why not?

btw, I'm not just being altruistic here either. Even though I have many libs, I'm also very interested in Miroslav as it has some very good sounds in it - although articulations are somewhat limited. If you work within those parameters, I think it can be very useful still.


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 27, 2009)

I'm glad you said that. I can't help thinking that it's had a bit of a bad press.

Some of the sounds such as the Flugelhorn, the Cor Anglais and the solo strings ARE good, albeit the lack of xfade.

However, it took me a while to realise that it's not the most universal of libraries (I mean articulations). It's got plenty of instruments.

Nevertheless, people on the composers' forum have said that GPO is a lot better, but I fail to see it.


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## synergy543 (Jan 27, 2009)

I use GPO with Sibelius as it loads very quickly (entire orchestration in a few seconds). Although the sound is somewhat limited in expression, I find it useful for sketching. Here is an example of Sibelius Hebrides played with Sibelius and GPO:

http://home.comcast.net/~synergy543/Hebrides_Sibelius_GPO.mp3 (http://home.comcast.net/~synergy543/Heb ... us_GPO.mp3)

I probably added some altiverb and stuff so its not exactly GPO out of box but still, I find it quite useful as a soundset with Sibelius. Sure its not VSL, but this is Sibelius playing back a score, NOT a sequencer. I'm trying to get VSL working with Sibelius but I doubt I'll replace it as its so huge in file size. So while others may laugh at GPO, I find it has its uses. Although I would not recommend you get GPO for sequencing. EWQLSO Gold would be a better overall choice unless you need something for scoring. VSL SE is nice too but beware its a bit tricker to mix than EWQLSO. Nice sounds, but remember, I warned you!


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 27, 2009)

Phew, you had me worried there for a moment. Somebody told me that notation programmes were getting better and better at playback, and I was expecting with much dread, something magical that would have made my set up laughable.

Yes, I can see it certainly has it's uses. Unfortunately, I don't have a scoring programme, I handwrite all my scores (not out of choice, you understand).

I also don't know what it is about EWQLSO gold, but the build up of convoluted reverb with a lot of voices playing simultaneously (happens in my music a lot) makes it a bit muddy. A friend of mine did this mix of the same piece with it (This isn't Ray's version).

http://www.box.net/shared/d7ezvpc6tb

What amazes me is that people on this forum have said that it sounds better than my mix, and I really really can't understand why. To me, it sounds muddy and characterless (and too fast. I don't know what Andy was playing at there). When the recap starts it's just a chaotic cowpat where you can't even hear the beginning of each bar/measure.

As you can imagine, hearing this all the way through has put me off EWQLSO gold for life (with no remission), and made me more determined to save up for VSL.


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## synergy543 (Jan 27, 2009)

Well, you have to listen to what others have done with EWQLSO to really judge it properly. I like the sound of EWQLSO and I have Platinum and three copies of Gold (cause the wife had to have a copy on her computer too). I'm just saying its a bit easier to work with than VSL and that might be a consideration. Plus, VSL SE is really only 1/4 of what you want. You'll want the VSL SE PLUS also and then you'll want the extended version of both. So all together, its about 4x the price you think. Same with the full VSL. It adds up fast.

As for more advanced notation sounds, have a listen to the Xsample demos with Sibelius. These are rather impressive from a simple notation program:

http://www.xsample.de/html/sibelius_demos.html

btw, you're up all night in the UK? Do you ever sleep?


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 28, 2009)

synergy543 @ Wed 28 Jan said:


> Well, you have to listen to what others have done with EWQLSO to really judge it properly. I like the sound of EWQLSO and I have Platinum and three copies of Gold (cause the wife had to have a copy on her computer too). I'm just saying its a bit easier to work with than VSL and that might be a consideration. Plus, VSL SE is really only 1/4 of what you want. You'll want the VSL SE PLUS also and then you'll want the extended version of both. So all together, its about 4x the price you think. Same with the full VSL. It adds up fast.
> 
> As for more advanced notation sounds, have a listen to the Xsample demos with Sibelius. These are rather impressive from a simple notation program:
> 
> ...



I have a doctor's appointment in half an hour, and I didn't want to miss it (my sleeping clocks all arse about face at the moment, due to sickness).

Who are xsample? That demo was amazing. Are you telling me that they were read from a computerised manuscript with soundfonts. Incredible, lateral thinking, almost. Do they do ensemble strings, and why don't people talk about them on these forums, like they do about VSL and EWQLSO?

Platinum, I've heard, is a different ballgame because of its close mic samples. I don't know if you had the patience to listen all the way through to that EW mix (I know I wouldn't), but the beginning gets far worse, and my ears tell me that I wouldn't be able to get a better mix of it with Gold.

That 4 x VSL concept seems strange. Doesn't one incorporate at least part, if not all, of the other? What I mean is, wouldn't the extended plus version contain everything you need as it incorporates SE basic?

I received this e-mail from 'rayinstirling' the other day:

"I've just bought and received Vienna Special Edition inc Extended Libraries. £570.00

It blows EWQLSO Gold Complete to shreds. (maybe not Platinum but that's a lot more money and Hard Drive space).
Immediately when converting Stour to VSE it sounds more defined and easier to mix.

If you save your pennies for a future upgrade it must be VSL for non Hollywood symphonic music."

So, I dunno. Maybe my minds made up, unless there is something really special out there, like the new synthesis movement bringing something reasonably priced out.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 28, 2009)

alphabetgreen @ Wed Jan 28 said:


> What amazes me is that people on this forum have said that it sounds better than my mix, and I really really can't understand why.



When I studied we had a professor for chamber music that frequently told us: 

"All of you are experts in terms of musicality, sound, articulation, pitch and so on and so on.

Until you are involved yourself."

That is a problem. Sometimes the most musical people are also the most subjective when it comes to listening. They are hearing tiny nuances that are too subtle for others but overhear big fat issues that others can easily spot. It is quite a process to get some distance and objectivity, and that is part of why we are together here.

A musical brain does really not work as simple as a microphone with a spectrum analyzer. It can create and give interpretations in front of the inner ear and often these get into the way when it comes to objective listening.

To _really_ realize what we are hearing is what the engineer part in us needs to work with but it is a training for itself.


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 28, 2009)

Mihkel @ Wed 28 Jan said:


> synergy543 @ Wed Jan 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Plus, VSL SE is really only 1/4 of what you want. You'll want the VSL SE PLUS also and then you'll want the extended version of both.
> ...



Okay, everything above on VSL SE looks fine, in fact the only string articulation that I can think of that isn't there is 'col legno' (stroking and hitting the string with the wooden part of the bow), but I can't see myself writing for that anyway. One question though, is there xfades on every instrument?


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 28, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Wed 28 Jan said:


> alphabetgreen @ Wed Jan 28 said:
> 
> 
> > What amazes me is that people on this forum have said that it sounds better than my mix, and I really really can't understand why.
> ...



So what you are saying is, because I am the composer, I am listening out for nuances in the composition that only I am aware of, and try to bring out, when the rest of you are unaware of them and just bless the whole sound as one unit. Did you mean that?

You may well be right but I still thought it was as muddy as hell.


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## synergy543 (Jan 28, 2009)

The part Hannes said, that I think you missed...


Hannes_F @ Wed 28 Jan said:


> .... but overhear big fat issues that others can easily spot. It is quite a process to get some distance and objectivity...


What he said.



alphabetgreen @ Wed Jan 28 said:


> Who are xsample? That demo was amazing. Are you telling me that they were read from a computerised manuscript with soundfonts. Incredible, lateral thinking, almost. Do they do ensemble strings, and why don't people talk about them on these forums, like they do about VSL and EWQLSO?


 XSamples is a German company - good samples (although not as extensive as VSL or EWQLSO) but I dunno, maybe colorful language and cultural differences has been a barrier?. They have created soundsets for Sibelius so the examples in the link I sent were played directly from Sibelius notation.



alphabetgreen @ Wed Jan 28 said:


> ...and my ears tell me that I wouldn't be able to get a better mix of it with Gold.


I respectfully disagree. I have great reverence for many of the mockup masters on this forum who have skills far beyond my own. Each day I learn new things from them, just by listening to what they do. I've heard many excellent mockups done only with Gold. But how could anyone not improve? I'm sure John Williams would agree with me.



alphabetgreen @ Wed Jan 28 said:


> That 4 x VSL concept seems strange. Doesn't one incorporate at least part, if not all, of the other? What I mean is, wouldn't the extended plus version contain everything you need as it incorporates SE basic?


 VSL SE is broken down into four parts - starting with basic samples and simply adding articulations. It is certainly excellent value and my favorite samples.

However, aside from the price and structure (which you can study in detail on their site), my point was that VSL requires a bit more expertise to work with than EWQLSO. Although the VSL sounds are top-notch, they require more work (both mixing and mockup skills) than EWQLSO to sound good. You must have good knowledge about room acoustics and mixing for starters - as well as a good reverb plugin. And, there are many more articulations to select from. So the complexity is somewhat increased which means there is more possibly to end up with a bad mix as well as a better one. JFYI


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## synergy543 (Jan 28, 2009)

btw, check out this thread for a great example of the Miroslav Choirs by Frederick Russ.

http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4848

He didn't even use CC11 expression.

And here's an orchestral one (all Miroslav) by Gregjazz with nice orchestration and mixing.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=159263

I think both of these show there is good potential for this old dated lib in the right hands. I think its kind of inspiring to hear what can be done with such primitive tools. Reminds me of the old pencil and paper. o/~


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## alphabetgreen (Feb 2, 2009)

synergy543 @ Thu 29 Jan said:


> btw, check out this thread for a great example of the Miroslav Choirs by Frederick Russ.
> 
> http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4848
> 
> ...



WOW!!!! I have a brilliant library.

How do they do it? Incredible, especially that piece by Gregjazz. I've never heard anything like it!!!


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## Lunatique (Feb 21, 2009)

alphabetgreen - I had recommended Paul Gilreath's book The Guide to MIDI Orchestration (3rd edition) to you at KVRaudio. Have you gotten it yet? You really should because where you are right now with your MIDI orchestration, the book will really help you. Some people might say the library reviews in the last part of the book becomes dated as soon as the book was published, but I disagree. It's a great resource for anyone who wants to learn in minute detail how the major libraries out there are different from each other in terms of recording, programming, sound, and usage. Many of the libraries is touches upon are still available today and are still good products. 

But or course you are buying the book for the actual material on MIDI orchestration techniques.


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## alphabetgreen (Feb 21, 2009)

Lunatique @ Sat 21 Feb said:


> alphabetgreen - I had recommended Paul Gilreath's book The Guide to MIDI Orchestration (3rd edition) to you at KVRaudio. Have you gotten it yet? You really should because where you are right now with your MIDI orchestration, the book will really help you. Some people might say the library reviews in the last part of the book becomes dated as soon as the book was published, but I disagree. It's a great resource for anyone who wants to learn in minute detail how the major libraries out there are different from each other in terms of recording, programming, sound, and usage. Many of the libraries is touches upon are still available today and are still good products.
> 
> But or course you are buying the book for the actual material on MIDI orchestration techniques.



Hi there, Lunatique.

I actually took your advice very seriously and went down to Waterstones to order it, but had to rewind my activities quickly when I found out that it was over £40.

If I could just put you in the picture for a minute. I'm currently unemployed due to the credit crunch and my personal health status, and I'm struggling to make ends meet at the moment. However, whatever spare cash I have, or if I ever am expecting a birthday/christmas present, I usually spend it on compositional necessities. But I have to follow certain priorities. I have an interview with a Music Festival Organisation on 31 March and the chairman has specified that he is only interested in scores (he can hear what he reads). Now, most of my scores are handwritten, but a couple of them aren't even scored yet, and these are later ones that I want him to see. Therefore, I'm in the middle of deciding upon very cheap versions of both Finale and Sibelius, because I've got five weeks to score a four movement concerto and one (or maybe two) movements of a symphony.

Sorry, I rambled a bit there. What I'm saying is that as soon as I have the cash to spare, I will certainly look into buying it. I've yet to check e-bay for a second hand copy yet. In fact, I think I'll do that now.

But I certainly haven't forgotten, and I would dearly love to have the book. Even though, a couple of people on this forum have said that I don't need it.

Cheers,

Simon


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