# Catalina / 16" MacBook - Negative experiences only please!



## jcrosby (Jul 3, 2020)

As the title suggests... I'm posting this thread to gather list of Catalina's negatives. I want to hear people's negative 10.15 experiences. If you think it's a shit sandwich say it loud, say it proud... If your issue(s) persist(s), or have come back at least once in an an update it'd be massively useful to hear that as well..

*TLDR VERSION: *After an email exchange about 10.15/ARM with a developer who will remain nameless I've decided panic buying a MacBook Pro I can ride out for at least 5-6 is the way to go. While Apple will surely leave me in a cloud of dust in a few years time the email exchange indicated to me this is still the way to go...

I'm leaning toward a 2019 15" that can be downgraded to 10.14. Even with the butterfly keyboard debacle Mojave capability currently still wins out for me.

That said the 16"s 8TB drive and 64 GB RAM are enticing, (even though all instincts so far say avoid Catalina). And as far as I can tell the 8 core processor is the same(?) Basically I want to hear the worst of it.

PLEASE Talk me down from the Catalina ledge  (Seriously.)


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## Wunderhorn (Jul 3, 2020)

I can confirm that Catalina is a giant shit show.

Currently I am running a Trashcan Mac Pro with Mojave and a new 2019 Mac Pro with Catalina. Guess what, my old Trashcan runs way smoother with Mojave than the 'new' Monster Mac Pro.

On the 2019 Mac Pro I have reverted from 10.15.4 back to 10.15.3 because that was much more stable.
At all costs you need to avoid 10.15.4 including its supplemental update (even worse.)
I have not yet tried 10.15.5. I will at some point at least to test it out.

Bottom line is - and BTW in 25 years of using Apple systems I never had to contact Apple support because I couldn't get a system update working properly - after hours and hours of talking to several levels of Apple tech support they even acknowledged that Catalina may actually have damaged equipment connected to the TB3 port (voltage surge). And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

However... I would really think hard about getting older/weaker hardware just so you can run Mojave. Yes, Mojave runs smoother, is less intrusive, patronizing to the user etc. but things are only moving forward, you can't cuff the hands of time. Being able to have more RAM is nice. A keyboard that doesn't fall apart is helpful too.

Perhaps 10.15.5 is indeed better and 10.15.6 is already in beta. And then there is Big Sur on the horizon. Plenty of opportunity for change. And the Windows world? They seem to have their issues as well. And last but not least you could be one of the lucky ones who are not experiencing these issues. Maybe you should get the newer computer and do a stress test. If it doesn't go well you can send it back.


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## jcrosby (Jul 3, 2020)

Wunderhorn said:


> I can confirm that Catalina is a giant shit show.
> 
> Currently I am running a Trashcan Mac Pro with Mojave and a new 2019 Mac Pro with Catalina. Guess what, my old Trashcan runs way smoother with Mojave than the 'new' Monster Mac Pro.
> 
> ...



Thanks, and really sorry to hear.

This sounds like part of what my email exchange indicated. They said that they were fine with 10.15 then Apple changed something with no warning, breaking compatibility, and it happened more than once... They also said something to the effect of 10.15.6 potentially 'fully hardening runtime' which could mean even bigger headaches... (And no it's not Melda for the too curious crowd...)

I've also seen stories about people losing ports with a couple updates... I had the same thing happen on my current MacBook and know how brutal this can be... Basically I feel exactly where you're coming from...

We'll see as far as which machine I settle on... I had essentially the same experience with the stuttering. Hardware broke ( in the form of speakers eventually blowing out). And I'd never needed to call support previously either... I've been on mac 15 years, nary a headache until that fucking T2 chip came along...

As far as a stress test that's a good idea, but I am worried about having to deal with multiple Native Access authorizations in a short period of time, as well as any other software I have that doesn't use ilok for authorization...

Anyway, I'm taking the weekend to decide so hopefully others will weigh in for a better informed decision...


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## jcrosby (Jul 3, 2020)

FYI someone on MR gave me Craig Federighi's email when I had audio stutters and suggested emailing him. Might as well give it a go... If interested let me know and I'll post it here.


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## gsilbers (Jul 3, 2020)

catalina has not been that bad really. looosing some plugins from the old 32bit days though. 


the macbook 16 inch w 64gb of ram on the other hand has some serious fan heat issues. 
And gets a lot worse if using external display. have the apple customer service box about to send it for repair. but i have a feeling they either going to say its fine and its just how it works.. or theyll send me another and itll be the same. 


there are plenty of folks w the same issue but some random posts where some dont have this issue. so no idea. 
the main problem is the i9 and amd graphics are like ferraris trying to pull a carton of milk slowly. too much power for mundane stuff. even just opening logic, 2 safari tabs and a separate kontakt empty instrument plus mail app and wait 5 minutes. and the heat and fans go nuts. 

i have 2tb drive and have external ssd drive taped to the other side of the screen (has a protector) w a usb hub combo.


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## jcrosby (Jul 3, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> catalina has not been that bad really. looosing some plugins from the old 32bit days though.
> 
> 
> the macbook 16 inch w 64gb of ram on the other hand has some serious fan heat issues.
> ...


Curious what percentage of plugins did you lose? I don't mean 32 bit plugins. I mean 64 bit plugins that had pieces of 32 bit code, and haven't been/weren't updated. There are a few "64 bit" plugins (with pieces of 32 bit code) that won't be updated that are part of every Logic template I have. (And i have quite a bunch of templates I need to account for.)

Yeah it seems like the vast majority of people have fan issues. That's one of the reasons I hesitate with the 16 inch. The other thing that is a HUGE red flag is people disabling turbo boost. I can't justify spending over 5k on a computer where you have to disable turbo boost just to get Logic to behave.

The weird part is is that I have an i9 in my 2018, (fully maxed out). I run that thing hard. The fans only spin up when I'm pushing it hard.

Combining the 16" fan spin issue with the GPU issues I see people reporting, and people disabling turbo boost, the 2019 15 inch ironically seems like the lesser of two evils. despite it's failure of a keyboard. (Which I am intimately familiar with.Typing from it now ) Its keyboard repair program runs for 4 years from date of purchase, and does apply to refurbs... (Confirmed with support). Meanwhile there's no sign Apple's even aware of the issues reported about the 16".
Anyway... Thanks for weighing in.

Please keep the comments coming folks. I'm making the final decision Monday and the more I know the better... This would include anyone with an 8-core 2019 15". If anyone has one and has all the same issues as the 16", (or not), that would be a massively informative.


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## tmhuud (Jul 3, 2020)

I call it Crapalina. YMMV. I rolled back to Mojave and High Sierra depending on each computers situation. I’ve also helped two friends roll back.


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## wayne_rowley (Jul 4, 2020)

In case you think Mojave is the solution; my Mac Mini 2018 was running Mojave nicely. I installed a Mojave security update and that disabled one of my TB3 ports (until I did and SMC reset) and left me with a kernel panic error everytime I cold booted the system. Upgrading to Catalina fixed the issue.

Mojave is no more ‘safe’ than Catalina!


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## gsilbers (Jul 4, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Curious what percentage of plugins did you lose? I don't mean 32 bit plugins. I mean 64 bit plugins that had pieces of 32 bit code, and haven't been/weren't updated. There are a few "64 bit" plugins (with pieces of 32 bit code) that won't be updated that are part of every Logic template I have. (And i have quite a bunch of templates I need to account for.)
> 
> Yeah it seems like the vast majority of people have fan issues. That's one of the reasons I hesitate with the 16 inch. The other thing that is a HUGE red flag is people disabling turbo boost. I can't justify spending over 5k on a computer where you have to disable turbo boost just to get Logic to behave.
> 
> ...




not too many 32bit but the ones i had really liked. obvious ones like camel phat and space i could go to the logic versions but dont feel the same. altiverb 6 and other 32lives plugs i had. 
and had to pay for the waves WUP which i paid once like 10 years ago so i paid like $250 for like 300 plugins and it went smooth. i was coming from sierra and had mix of v11 and v9 etc... 

things like Adrenalinn from rogerlinn design for example and others that wont be updated left me sad to let them go. 

there is a common where somone got the i7 version of the 16inch and didnt have fan/heat issues after returning two i9. 

and then the conspiracy theory that apple are running these designs very hot so they can later start selling ARM based macs and be way much better heat wise and get some extra stock price bumps


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## jcrosby (Jul 4, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> not too many 32bit but the ones i had really liked. obvious ones like camel phat and space i could go to the logic versions but dont feel the same. altiverb 6 and other 32lives plugs i had.
> and had to pay for the waves WUP which i paid once like 10 years ago so i paid like $250 for like 300 plugins and it went smooth. i was coming from sierra and had mix of v11 and v9 etc...
> 
> things like Adrenalinn from rogerlinn design for example and others that wont be updated left me sad to let them go.
> ...


Appreciate it. CamelPhat's always been a favorite of mine. I've gotten used to PhatFX, but it definitely does sound different and doesn't have the randomize feature. Altiverb would also be a bummer, but I've made Space Designer IRs of most of the spaces I use regularly anyway. Waves is what it is, figured that would be inevitable. 

The big one for me is Ozone 5 Advanced. It has a few tricks Izotope removed in 6 onward, a few of which I've found no replacement for... It's in literally every Logic template and project from the past 10 years. I'd have to go through a bunch of projects. Any chance you used this before moving to Catalina?

I did find a few posts where people said they still had fan spin in their i7's so I'm leaning toward thinking it's something else. Probably the design, but possibly a firmware screw up like they had with the 2018. No matter what Apple's gotten sloppy if not downright negligent. 

Do you run yours with turbo boost off? This is the biggest red flag for me since there's no guarantee this solution won't work at some point in the future...


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## Wunderhorn (Jul 4, 2020)

wayne_rowley said:


> Mojave is no more ‘safe’ than Catalina!



Just FYI Mojave users: You can *not* install that latest Mojave "security update". I introduces some of Catalina's buggy code. 10.14.6 without the latest "security update" is the last most stable MacOS version in my experience.


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## jbuhler (Jul 4, 2020)

Wunderhorn said:


> Just FYI Mojave users: You can *not* install that latest Mojave "security update". I introduces some of Catalina's buggy code. 10.14.6 without the latest "security update" is the last most stable MacOS version in my experience.


I’m really starting to detest these security updates. They used to be quick little things to install and you rarely had to think about them. But that’s no longer the case, they often take as long to install as a major update, and increasingly they break things the way only the major updates used to.


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## jcrosby (Jul 4, 2020)

Wunderhorn said:


> Just FYI Mojave users: You can *not* install that latest Mojave "security update". I introduces some of Catalina's buggy code. 10.14.6 without the latest "security update" is the last most stable MacOS version in my experience.



Thanks for the heads up. I hear you, I've actually been avoiding security updates since 10.13. After a security update broke core audio for me that was all I needed to see to know Apple's development went off a cliff. Luckily I cloned beforehand, but Apple's security updates can eat a bag...

Curiously when did they release the last security update? I installed 10.14 about 2 months ago and it's been ok more or less on the MB... Assuming the latest update's more recent my plan would be to wipe and clone, and stay far away from any security updates. If that didn't work for any reason I have a 10.14 thumb drive installer from August last year I could clean install from.

Curiously are people reporting these as macos bug reports? If people don't start doing this aggressively things are going to keep going downhill..


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## Wunderhorn (Jul 4, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Thanks for the heads up. I hear you, I've actually been avoiding security updates since 10.13. After a security update broke core audio for me that was all I needed to see to know Apple's development went off a cliff. Luckily I cloned beforehand, but Apple's security updates can eat a bag...
> 
> Curiously when did they release the last security update? I installed 10.14 about 2 months ago and it's been ok more or less on the MB... Assuming the latest update's more recent my plan would be to wipe and clone, and stay far away from any security updates. If that didn't work for any reason I have a 10.14 thumb drive installer from August last year I could clean install from.
> 
> Curiously are people reporting these as macos bug reports? If people don't start doing this aggressively things are going to keep going downhill..



I remember only one security update since then.

I suspect that those "security updates" are not always just that. Apple seems to have a whole ulterior agenda in conjunction with the T2 chip (Prove me wrong, I'd be happy). With those latest updates for example they removed the Terminal command that allowed to silence the MacOS update nagging notifications. Add that to the aggressive Gatekeeper behavior, the required and time limited "code signatures" everywhere and the monopolizing tendencies around the App Store (plus now the news about ARM etc) all point towards a tight sealed eco-system. Freedom, creativity, diversity are being ordered to take the back seat.
Microsoft too displays such tendencies (forced updates) which leaves only Linux. But bigger software companies are ignoring it, rendering it useless for people like us. It doesn't take much guess work to figure out why.

Innovation and great hardware/software came out of the freedom from within a (mostly) friendly chaos. Remember when the internet was just new (or even before that), politics had no idea about this technology and regulations lagged far behind. Even bigger corporations went on creative explorations before that said creativity was sacrificed to control and fear of losing the race at the stock market. Contributing to making the world a better place by means of technology isn't going to be a very successful endeavor when at the same time customers get hand-cuffed,

That said, I'm not saying you should forever stay on Mojave and not move along with the time. But awareness and an educated opinion (whichever yours will be) make for better decision-making as we are all together on this journey into the future.


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## jcrosby (Jul 5, 2020)

Wunderhorn said:


> I remember only one security update since then.
> 
> I suspect that those "security updates" are not always just that. Apple seems to have a whole ulterior agenda in conjunction with the T2 chip (Prove me wrong, I'd be happy). With those latest updates for example they removed the Terminal command that allowed to silence the MacOS update nagging notifications. Add that to the aggressive Gatekeeper behavior, the required and time limited "code signatures" everywhere and the monopolizing tendencies around the App Store (plus now the news about ARM etc) all point towards a tight sealed eco-system. Freedom, creativity, diversity are being ordered to take the back seat.


Thanks.

You won't get an argument from me... After seeing two security updates a couple months apart break core audio on the MB it was pretty obvious to me Apple are messing with a whole lot more than "security" settings. Meanwhile they're support is absolutely clueless any of this is going on. (And like you, I'd never been one to have to deal with Apple support until this happened. I could fumble my way around and more or less fix things myself.)

The T2 chip seems to mark the event where OS updates took a hard decline. I'd never had a macos update break my system previously. Apple's updates were solid for me clear through 10.12. Considering the chip is 1/2 ARM it all seems to point to the march toward ARM.

It also seems like a reasonable indicator of what people should expect to accept as normal or 'ok' under ARM. Less stability, more overreach, totally opaque updates with no indication of what to expect. And after seeing Logic 10.5 break a handful of plugins, (more importantly the developer responses I received when emailing support about the issue), it seems like this is a bar Apple's content with.. Apple can make sweeping changes at will, let the developers squirm and figure it out after the fact...

I also agree about Linux. The argument for developers to start supporting a single Linux distro (Ubuntu being the obvious candidate) couldn't be more relevant. Based on the email I mentioned in my initial post I actually wouldn't be surprised if start seeing more plugin development for Linux. (This wasn't mentioned by them... But if this developer's going to drop one platform adopting another one isn't all that ridiculous).

It obviously all rests on DAW developers, but I think ARM might actually be a big enough headache where we at least start see start to see a few more options on Linux. I doubt we'll see any of the the major players adopt it, but if Apple does start moving toward corralling everything into the app store, (which frankly is looking pretty likely), pigs flying in a frozen hell doesn't sound completely impossible either....

Speculation obvioulsy... Either way it's going to be an awkward couple of years for macos...


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## jcrosby (Jul 8, 2020)

So I've installed 10.15.5 on an external to see how much of dumpster a fire Catalina actually is. I booted from it most of yesterday...

Unfortunatley I can only run demos for most things that aren't ilok, and I don't want to risk authorizing NA considering it's already activated on the internal and another machine and don't want to risk getting an authorization limit warning... (This has only happened maybe twice, but believe it's been Heavyocity both times which is pretty heavily used by me.. That's not a risk I'm not willing to take)

What I have been able to run in demo mode actually seems to run fine. There are a few things that won't install, but as long as I disable gatekeeper almost everything actually installs... Authorization's unfortunately another issue that seems really grey... I can see my older version of IK's authorizer won't run when I browse my internal disk.

And even though Ozone 5 and Alloy 2 install and run fine as demos in Logic I'm airing on the side of caution and assuming Alloy 2 and Ozone 5's authorizers won't actually run. (Every time I open Alloy 2/Ozone 5's UI the authorization window pops up and I believe normally you should only see this once after hitting demo... But I may be wrong? It's been ages since running them as demos...)

Anyway most things seem to run, the things I'm most concerned about are my instruments...
I'm not concerned about whether they are "officially supported" as long as they actually have run stable for you... So far more than a few unofficially not-supported plugins seem to run fine if installed with Gatekeeper disabled. (And continue to run fine once gatekeeper is re-enabled.)

Can people confirm if any of the following VIs do or don't run/authorize in Catalina for you?


*Kontlakt 5.8.1* --- (the entire *Komplete 11 Suite* for that matter... Absynth, FM8, Reaktor 6, Replika XT, RC 24/48, etc)
*Massive* -- (Original not Massive X)
*Omnisphere, Trillian, Stylus RMX*
S.A. --* PHOBOS, & LABS*
Xfer --* Serum*
TAL --* U-No-LX v2*, *TAL Sampler*
EW --* Play 5*
Expressive E* -- Lie*
IK --* Modo Bass, Syntronik Deluxe*
UVI --* Falcon/Sparkverb*
*DS Thorn*
*U.A. LION *
*Reason 11 Rack *(Plugin)
Sonic Academy* -- Ana*, *Kick 2*
U-He -- *Zebra 2*, *Zebra HZ*
XLN Audio -- *Addictive Keys*, *Addictive Drums 2*

Any issues with OT *Sine Playe*r, and *Izotope RX 7*?

I'll double check with most developers, would just be nice to hear what works, especially if _unofficially not-supported_ but running stable for you...

Thanks again to everyone who's chimed in so far...


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## Daniel Bailey (Jul 10, 2020)

I recently purchased a 2019 reconditioned 16” MB Pro with 64GB, 4 TB SSD.

I was a bit worried that my MOTU 896 MK3 Firewire audio interface wouldn’t work with Catalina, it has been working just fine.

I have some of the plugins you listed and have had no problems with Catalina:

Kontlakt 5.8.1 --- (the entire Komplete 11 Suite for that matter... Absynth, FM8, RC 24/48, etc)

Massive -- (Original not Massive X)

(I’m using Komplete 12 Ultimate, but I don’t have everything installed)

Omnisphere, Stylus RMX 

U-He -- Zebra 2, Zebra HZ (also have DIVA, Hive 2, Repro 5)

I’m currently using Ableton Live 10 with no issues also.


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## jcrosby (Jul 10, 2020)

Wunderhorn said:


> I remember only one security update since then.
> With those latest updates for example they removed the Terminal command that allowed to silence the MacOS update nagging notifications.



How persistent are these. Basically have they turned it into iphone update nagging where it tries to twist you arm into updating by only giving you the 'remind me later' option? That would royally piss me off....

Was 10.15.4 buggy for you at all? If I can get ahold of a 10.15.4 installer I'd be cool with hanging on that as long as it's no less stable...


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## Wunderhorn (Jul 10, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> How persistent are these. Basically have they turned it into iphone update nagging where it tries to twist you arm into updating by only giving you the 'remind me later' option? That would royally piss me off....
> 
> Was 10.15.4 buggy for you at all? If I can get ahold of a 10.15.4 installer I'd be cool with hanging on that as long as it's no less stable...



No. you either need to stay on 10.5.3 or you take the plunge and go for the latest (10.5.6 is about to drop very soon). 10.5.4 is the worst you can do to your system.


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 10, 2020)

I can only comment from the position of a 3 month old MbP running the latest Catalina.
The OS is sloppy. Just silly little things. Not one of Apple's finest. (And now we know why: 10.11 is on the way.)

That said, in my experience, Catalina isn't the complete s**t-show it's made out to be. 3 months of hard use haven't revealed any major problems. It's reliable enough as long as your third party software collection supports it.

That's it, really.
A


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