# Revealed: Disappointing Prince Vaults Found To Contain 37,000 Hours Of Billy Joel Covers



## JohnG (Sep 3, 2017)

CHANHASSEN, MN—Ending rampant speculation regarding the extent of the late musician’s catalogue of unreleased recordings, the executors of Prince’s estate announced Monday that the performer’s famed vault in his Paisley Park residence sadly contains 37,000 hours of Billy Joel covers. “Prince was constantly creating throughout his career, and after finally accessing his vast trove of previously unheard music, we now know that he produced over 40,000 albums’ worth of material that is, unfortunately, made up entirely of songs originally recorded by Billy Joel,” said attorney L. Londell McMillan, reluctantly admitting that Prince had produced at least 9,000 hours of “Uptown Girl” covers alone. “We regrettably found a slowed-down, 40-minute version of ‘Scenes From An Italian Restaurant’ from the late 1980s, as well as a melodic vocal-only version recorded more recently—and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. It appears he was still recording pulsing, guitar-driven covers of ‘She’s Always A Woman’ up until his death. Tragically, we could be hearing new Prince tracks covering Billy Joel classics for decades to come.” Dejected executors went on to announce they had discovered Prince’s private journals containing hundreds of pages of additional, updated verses to “We Didn’t Start The Fire.”


http://www.theonion.com/article/disappointing-prince-vaults-found-contain-37000-ho-52853


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## karelpsota (Sep 3, 2017)

I hope people are familiar with "The Onion"


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## Ashermusic (Sep 4, 2017)

My guess is that although the "hipper than thou" crowd always likes to knock Billy, that Prince saw Billy as a great singer, pianist, songwriter and showman, although of course he was not covering his songs as they had little in common musically, other than both being really good.

And having been in the business for almost 50 years I can tell you that in my experience it is only the mediocre and not so good who tend to knock the work of greatly successful artists. The really good ones simply don't feel the need to.


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## JohnG (Sep 4, 2017)

by that standard, Jay, we're not allowed to dislike anything that's popular unless we've sold a million tracks. That is a silly position. 

Ever read Plutarch? He wrote about many Roman and Greek leaders and extensively passed judgment on them, even though he had never been an emperor. By your logic, that would by definition be a wrong thing to do, and yet Plutarch was a source for Shakespeare and was actually just quoted over the weekend in the Wall Street Journal, of all places, so I would say history has judged in his favour.

Calling Billy Joel an 'artist' is stretching the term. He's a hugely successful songwriter and performer, and hats off to him for that; it's tough to make it at all in the music world. However, if you're going to take the joke seriously (questionable to begin with) artists define themselves as much by what they _don't_ do as by what they actually pursue. 

Artistically, Prince and occupied different departments, pursuing very different levels.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 4, 2017)

JohnG said:


> by that standard, Jay, we're not allowed to dislike anything that's popular unless we've sold a million tracks. That is a silly position.
> 
> Ever read Plutarch? He wrote about many Roman and Greek leaders and extensively passed judgment on them, even though he had never been an emperor. By your logic, that would by definition be a wrong thing to do, and yet Plutarch was a source for Shakespeare and was actually just quoted over the weekend in the Wall Street Journal, of all places, so I would say history has judged in his favour.
> 
> ...



Disliking is one thing, mocking another. You are entitled to your opinion about Billy Joel but my guess is that his music will still be loved and played long after the music you and I have created is forgotten. It doesn't mean you have to like him, but it damn well means you shouldn't mock him.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 4, 2017)

I didn't get that John was mocking Billy Joel, but I would call him an artist.

"Just The Way You Are" is a fantastic song, to name just one.


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## sinkd (Sep 4, 2017)

This Onion satire piece might only work with Billy Joel in the punchline... Try some others out: Jim Croce? Nope. Barry Manilow? Too easy. Milli Vanilli? TOO ironic to be funny. Elton John? Doesn't play the same. John Denver? Possibly getting warmer, but probably too soon. Dan Fogelberg? --maybe, OK, but not as good... Definitely not as funny with Tony Bennett or Pat Boone. It may actually be a tribute to the Piano Man that his is among the only careers robust enough and well-known enough for most everyone to have formed an opinion.

I actually do like Billy Joel--"She's Always a Woman", "Rosalinda's Eyes", "And So It Goes", AND I think the Onion piece is funny stuff. I think Billy Joel would as well. I also didn't think that John's repost was mean-spirited.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 4, 2017)

sinkd, that is a very valid comment if there was not a history of the rock press being so dismissive of him.

As for John's intentions, they are revealed to me by the comment, "Calling Billy Joel an 'artist' is stretching the term."

No, it isn't. I worked piano bars for a lot of years, and "Piano Man" is a _totally_ faithful accounting of what essentially happened to me night after night after night. After 9/11, Billy performed "New York State Of Mind" at Madison Square Garden and thousands of New Yorkers were moved and felt strengthened by it. He went to Russia and earned rave reviews from the Russian people.

That IS artistry, not earning plaudits from the "hip" folks. He also wrote a couple of pretty damned impressive piano works that if you did not know that it was his name on it, you might be surprised.

How many people have been moved to tears by work they have created? It happened the other night at my concert. I sang a song that I wrote with Stephen Michael Schwartz called "Only Everyday" and a woman came up to me and said, "Your song moved me to tears." Multiply that by hundreds of thousands of incidents and that is probably the career of Billy Joel.

John and anyone else is perfectly entitled not to like Billy Joel or Barry Manilow or anyone else and they are entitled to say so unequivocally. But when they turn someone's life work into the punch line of a joke, they are going to get called out on it by me. Big time. EVERY time.

NOTE: The Onion is satire, that is different, although again, I don't like its "hipper than thou" attitude frequently


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## sinkd (Sep 4, 2017)

Jay, 

I think we are kind of hollering past each other on this one. My point was basically that the joke only works because Billy Joel is the guy the critics love to hate--and he only persists in that arena because he is a talented guy. Critics don't make their bones assailing obvious hacks.

DS


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## Ashermusic (Sep 4, 2017)

sinkd said:


> Jay,
> 
> I think we are kind of hollering past each other on this one. My point was basically that the joke only works because Billy Joel is the guy the critics love to hate--and he only persists in that arena because he is a talented guy. Critics don't make their bones assailing obvious hacks.
> 
> DS



Agreed, except that some critics _have_ made their bones by pandering to the hipsters. Rolling Stone was the worst serial offender. And his last album was released in what, 1993?

I have a lot of Black musician friends, and to a person, they all respect Kenny Loggins. But most of his work, "Blue-eyed Soul" was savaged by the rock press, because one jerk read what another jerk wrote and eventually that became the common "hip" view. And Kenny was asked about it and said he didn't worry about it, but wondered why it got so personal, not just criticizing the music but him as an artist. And that what he was put through was nothing compared to how nasty the reviews of Manilow were, which he could not understand.

Anyway, I have said all that I have to say on this, but again, when it occurs, you can expect that I will weigh in and I will not be pulling any punches.


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## SterlingArcher (Sep 4, 2017)

karelpsota said:


> I hope people are familiar with "The Onion"



Is it that "Fake News" site that "President" Trump keeps mentioning?


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## chimuelo (Sep 4, 2017)

No, the fake news is all of the outlets meant for Sheep who are controlled by selective media.
Only a few Corporations own the entire market, and only a few own the publishing rights to everything we read and see.
Including the very same folks who helped the Nazi propoganda machine 75 years ago.
It starts with a Capital B and owns over half of anything you've ever read.

Trump calls it fake, we did that long before he came along, the word purposeful is better suited.

The Onion is owned by the globalist gazillionaires, but they figured we needed some humor along with their endless crisis management, wars, economic transfers, etc. etc.
So we owe them a nod since everything else is for specific programming reasons, and enlargenning their collections of Sheep....


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## JohnG (Sep 4, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> You are entitled to your opinion about Billy Joel but my guess is that his music will still be loved and played long after the music you and I have created is forgotten



So what, Jay? Your argument you keep repeating (and have elsewhere) is "he's famous, you're not," which sounds perilously close to someone in the White House's lingo. That argument is nonsense. Satire is part of being famous -- Shakespeare gets parodied, as does Beethoven and Bach. Nobody is claiming they aren't great artists. It's a joke.


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## jtnyc (Sep 4, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> I have a lot of Black musician friends, and to a person, they all respect Kenny Loggins. But most of his work, "Blue-eyed Soul" was savaged by the rock press, because one jerk read what another jerk wrote and eventually that became the common "hip" view.



I never liked Kenny Loggins at all. When ever he came on the radio, I couldn't reach for the dial fast enough. All these years I thought it was because his style just didn't appeal to me, nor move me in any way at all, but your saying that anyone who doesn't like Kenny Loggins formed this opinion because it's "hip" to do so.

Also, how is it that you miraculously know that one jerk read what another jerk wrote and that's what caused so many people to flock to the opinion that they didn't like Kenny Loggins, and that all of those people were not able to form their own opinion about what they like or don't like, but were swayed by the prospect of being "hip"....

Why is a critic that gives a bad review to someone you like automatically a jerk?

You take the thread off topic and start going on about your issues with supoosed hipsters. I say supoosed because you just seemed to have made them up, I mean there is no way to verify what you say. It's not possible to know what you have stated you know. It's more like a preemptive strike against anyone who doesn't see things your way. I for one know why I don't like Kenny Loggins and it has nothing to do with wanting to be hip.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 4, 2017)

Billy Joel is one of the greatest pop songwriters of all times. Along with the Eagles, he's about the closest thing America produced to the Beatles. In his earlier days, he also sang his ass off, and it makes me very sad to say that as a pianist, he totally smokes me.

Oh, did I mention he's a pretty good arranger as well, and an incandescent performer? I saw him soon after Piano Man was released, in front of 800 people.
He killed it.

A very tepid review of one of his albums ended my purchase of Rolling Stone magazine forever. In that same edition, they said that Crazy Horse, Neil Young's band, was the greatest American rock band. Mmm.

The famed artist and choreographer Twyla Tharp wrote a dance around his work and it turned into quite a successful Broadway show, but Broadway? Pffft.

I guess "pop" isn't "art."

(I still think the Onion thing was funny, btw.)


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## Ashermusic (Sep 5, 2017)

Never mind. I need to keep reminding myself that if people don't get it on the first post, subsequent ones will not likely change anything.


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## jtnyc (Sep 5, 2017)

Once again, question you on something, and it's the old, above it all, condescending, "you just don't get it". Yeah, that's good, blame it on our inability to see your enlightened views... 

Such a convenient way to see things


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## Ashermusic (Sep 5, 2017)

jtnyc said:


> Once again, question you on something, and it's the old, above it all, condescending, "you just don't get it". Yeah, that's good, blame it on our inability to see your enlightened views...
> 
> Such a convenient way to see things



To a degree, you are correct. I do look down on those who make snide remarks about artists of greater accomplishment, so if anyone wants to fill disrespected because of that view of mine, oh well.


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## jtnyc (Sep 5, 2017)

Yet I didn't make a snide remark about anyone. I don't feel disrespected, just annoyed with another derailed thread by someone wagging their finger.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 5, 2017)

jtnyc said:


> Yet I didn't make a snide remark about anyone. I don't feel disrespected, just annoyed with another derailed thread by someone wagging their finger.



Didn't say you did. And yes, when I see what I regard as wrong, I sometimes wag my finger. That is who i am. Sorry that annoys you but it isn't likely to change.


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## jtnyc (Sep 5, 2017)

Yeah, John posting that bit of satire was just so wrong. How dare he. He and The Onion really needed to be reprimanded for that. We're all so thankful that you showed up and derailed the thread to put him in his place and at the same time take down the supposed Hipsters that only knock artists because they want to be part of the "hipper than thou" crowd.


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## Soundhound (Sep 5, 2017)

I thought The Stranger was a terrific album, and Billy Joel used lost of a-list players on his records. Billy Joel is a monster keyboard player and prolific, talented songwriter. I gotta say though, for me, his stuff hasn't worn well, there's not much of it I like hearing anymore. That's just my personal taste, ymmv...

On a more hilarious note though, I went to a wedding recently that had an absolutely killer band. Full of serious players, Juliard, conservatory trained etc etc. It was the usual stuff, Earth Wind and Fire, Stevie, Temps, etc. But not like any wedding band I'd ever heard. The floor was packed all night, it was like going to a good concert. In between sets they played Billy Joel, and only Billy Joel. Seemed like the point was to make them sound even more funky in comparison, give the dancing feet a break.


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## Mike Greene (Sep 5, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> ... it is only the mediocre and not so good who tend to knock the work of greatly successful artists. The really good ones simply don't feel the need to.





Ashermusic said:


> To a degree, you are correct. I do look down on those who make snide remarks about artists of greater accomplishment, so if anyone wants to fill disrespected because of that view of mine, oh well.





Ashermusic said:


> And yes, when I see what I regard as wrong, I sometimes wag my finger. That is who i am. Sorry that annoys you but it isn't likely to change.


Except there's a new sheriff in town, so please do change on that one. 

I've added a new forum rule - "No finger wagging"
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/guideline-rules-for-vi-control-forum-updated.3/

To be clear, it's totally fine to defend Billy Joel in a thread like this and I don't necessarily disagree with Jay's original thoughts. What's not fine is to suggest people who disagree must be "mediocre" or somehow inferior musically, morally or otherwise. Anyone with forum experience knows that's trouble in the making, hence the new rule.

In truth, the motivation for this rule doesn't really have that much to do with Billy Joel. (Although it's applicable here, so today's the day.) It's more about the discussions I've been having with developers who don't post here anymore. Some of these guys have some very valuable knowledge and input, so I want them back.

Interestingly, the developers who have left tell me they are less bothered by critiques of their own products and more bothered by the inane side discussion/derailments of topics, especially when those derailments become about the individuals, rather than the topic at hand. As one guy put it: _"A few months ago I somehow ended up on the xxxxxx thread via google search - kind of was in the mood for some new xxxx samples and I saw much of the same old behavior that drove me from the forum, XXX and YYY involved in a pedantic back and forth - not even discussing the actual topic. Sort of a blast from the past - the kind of unhelpful boasting/correcting is not what this forum was all about when it started."_

So we'll be doing some rule tweaks over the next month or two. In truth, I'm hoping it won't be so much about "rules" per se, and more about clarifying, probably by example, what's cool and what's isn't. Rules are really, really hard to write, so I doubt we'll ever get a definitive set. ("No finger wagging" is actually a terrible rule as stated. It's subject to interpretation, plus I can think of several exceptions where the rule _shouldn't_ apply. But hopefully the intent is clear.)

Aaaaand ... with apologies to John, yes, I'm fully aware that I have derailed this thread even further, so I'm kinda violating my own rule. My apologies to John for that, especially because I thought his post was really funny.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 5, 2017)

I think it is time for me to leave, at least for a while. I don't really want to participate in a place where it is OK to knock established people with impunity, but not to call the person to task who did so.

Those who want my help with Logic or just to keep in touch, my email is [email protected]


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## NYC Composer (Sep 6, 2017)

New sheriff, same old extremely subjective lines. I got much love for ya MG, but unless you're gonna start banning dudes (which has its own set of problems) you're gonna be setting yourself up for a lot of grief if you start finger wagging at finger wagging. Just my devalued $.02, of course.


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## rottoy (Sep 6, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> I think it is time for me to leave, at least for a while. I don't really want to participate in a place where it is OK to knock established people with impunity, but not to call the person to task who did so.
> 
> Those who want my help with Logic or just to keep in touch, my email is [email protected]


There was clear emphasis on this.
"What's not fine is to suggest people who disagree must be "mediocre" or somehow inferior musically, morally or otherwise. Anyone with forum experience knows that's trouble in the making, hence the new rule."
It should be clear as day that such behaviour wouldn't be condoned in any sensible conversation.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 6, 2017)

How the fuck did a post from The Onion turn into a bonfire?


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## NYC Composer (Sep 6, 2017)

The fingerwag, the Billy-dis, Sheriff Greene playin' the heavy, and BAM!

See y'all at page 28


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## Alohabob (Sep 6, 2017)

Dammit. I need to start reading things like this from the bottom up.


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## NoamL (Sep 6, 2017)

I think anyone who is commercially successful has something to teach everyone else. That may be the *ultimate* sellout viewpoint...  With commercial music I don't necessarily mean the named artist though. I'd rather be in the studio for 2 hours with Taylor Swift's mixer than with Taylor Swift. But yeah... I think nonmusicians buy into the idea that some kinds of music are low effort trash. When all music takes effort to create and refine. Whether it's soft rock or speed metal. There's craft in everything. It's of course fine not to like the product of that craft.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 6, 2017)

It's actually all fine. It is, and probably was a long time ago, time for me to leave here.

This falls into the category of what is sometimes called a "values collision." My values are at odds with most on this forum in this day and age and since I am at a point in my life where I am unwilling to choose to just let slide without comment behavior that I disapprove of, perhaps indeed a fault in me, it leads to my frustrating others as well as myself. 

So "goodbye, and thanks for all the fish."


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## NoamL (Sep 6, 2017)

Nonsense, your contributions are so valuable here Jay.

I give Mike Verta a thumbs up for practically every thing he posts here and that guy voted for @#$#@%@#ing TRUMP. Now there's a values collision. But I can leave that at the door and appreciate that his grasp of reharmonization, orchestration, and development is some of the most masterful and generous stuff of any composer talking to other composers on the Net.


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## jtnyc (Sep 7, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> It's actually all fine. It is, and probably was a long time ago, time for me to leave here.
> 
> This falls into the category of what is sometimes called a "values collision." My values are at odds with most on this forum in this day and age and since I am at a point in my life where I am unwilling to choose to just let slide without comment behavior that I disapprove of, perhaps indeed a fault in me, it leads to my frustrating others as well as myself.
> 
> So "goodbye, and thanks for all the fish."



I just want to be clear. Your still describing this as a case where your being told you can't disapprove of something, but John, myself and Mike took issue with how you characterized those who take part in poking fun at an artist, not your disapproval of poking fun at an artist. It's a huge difference and all 3 of us have pointed it out, yet you have ignored it in every one of your responses. I'm sorry, but this values collision idea is bunk, because no one ever said you can't disapprove. Again, it's not the disapproval, it's the way you characterized people as wanna be hipsters, mediocre, not entitled to criticize or poke fun because they are not famous or successful etc... Then you say, I don't wanna be in a place where I can't disapprove of something, it's against my values, again ignoring what people actually took issue with...


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## anp27 (Sep 8, 2017)

karelpsota said:


> I hope people are familiar with "The Onion"



Thank God this was from "The Onion"! Huge sigh of relief


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## NYC Composer (Sep 8, 2017)

Jay Asher, stop leaving, damnit. It's exhausting.


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## Publius (Sep 8, 2017)

The Onion piece was satire--to read anything into it significant enough to be offended is like a boxer going 10 rounds with a cloud. It gave me a smile as I interpret it to be a satire on the all too frequent phenomenon of the over-typed 'treasure trove' of unreleased material when an artist dies, and the disappointment once it is released. It can be interpreted as a put-down of Billy Joel, but I saw it as simply an effort to seek an artist that is stylistically very different from Prince. I think the joke would have been funnier if the covers were Simon and Garfunkel songs, and I like their music quite a bit.

Personally, I like more Billy Joel songs than Prince songs, but at times each exhibited moments of musical genius.

Having said that, the discussion here was more thought provoking to me than I would have expected.

And one key point, to my thinking, the joke wasn't about the musical taste of Prince, it was about the musical taste of his fans.



Ashermusic said:


> Agreed, except that some critics _have_ made their bones by pandering to the hipsters. Rolling Stone was the worst serial offender...



I don't get the opportunity to discuss the subject of Rolling Stone's hipster pandering very often, but I agree with you 110 percent on that one. Look at the order in which they induct artists into the so-called hall of fame--its not The Hall of Fame, its Jan Wenner's Hall of Fame. I think the most recent time I read something in Rolling Stone, it was written by Hunter S. Thompson...


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## Publius (Sep 8, 2017)

NoamL said:


> ...I'd rather be in the studio for 2 hours with Taylor Swift's mixer than with Taylor Swift...



Agreed, and even better if he's not mixing her music at the time... Of course, millions of pubescent girls may disagree with my musical taste here. 

OTOH, if I could get $100 million a year for playing her music on stage, as she does, I would be able to set aside my personal feelings for at least a couple of years...


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## NYC Composer (Sep 8, 2017)

So, I'm curious. Does anyone think Taylor Swift is:

1. A bad pop songwriter
2. Badly produced
3. Hard on the eyes?

I find some of her pop songs to be quite catchy. Haven't bought an album or anything, but I've heard seen her on the YouTube. Personally, I'd rather spend some time with her than with her mixer.

I also think Rhianna, Bruno Mars, Ed Sheeran, The Chainsmokers and others are doing some pretty good work in the pop arena.


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## Darren Durann (Sep 9, 2017)

What's wrong with Billy Joel? I actually like his music overall better than Prince (and I happen to very much like some of the Prince songs, including the ones he wrote for others).

I do find it mortifying that he was so obsessed with Joel's music. Seems a little freaky to me. But hey, it was Prince's life and he did what he wanted, without hurting anyone. Good on him.


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## Darren Durann (Sep 9, 2017)

Ewwps, shoulda read this thread from bottom up.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 9, 2017)

Hahahahahahahaha


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## mc_deli (Sep 10, 2017)

Car crash.
Why not just moderate the thread FFS?


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