# Why aren't more folks talking about Notion?



## mventura

I see a lot of talk about Dorico, Sibelius, and Finale but I rarely heard folks talk about Notion. While Notion is not as sophisticated as other notation software for detailed engraving it does solve the need I hear most folks talk about: the need to work with notes on a staff. Also Notion is super easy to synch with sample libraries. It has a rule based UI that essential creates an XMl custom rule file that you can "plug" into any staff to trigger keyswitches based on the score (e.g., articulations, techniques). You can even create custom text-based articulations or techniques to trigger keyswitches (I created a Doit label that I put on notes to trigger Doit in Project Sam Swing). It is awesome for working with any library that uses keyswitches. And Notion comes with custom rules for all VSL SE and many East West libraries. 

It also has velocity and duration controls for individual notes to you can also tweak while staying in the notation view (love the way they implemented this feature). 

The only request I have for Notion is they need to allow additional CC control for notes. For example I can not draw a vibrato curve for a note in Notion. This is the most requested feature on the Notion forum. Although hairpins always work fine for controlling dynamics (and can be assigned to control other CCs like vibrato). 

Curious why folks are not using it more. Its just $200 and includes a decent 8Gb full orchestral plus rock band sketching library. Are there other limitations Notion has vs. a DAW that I am just missing?


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## MatFluor

I used Notion before I got Sibelius and Overture.

It's a great Notation software, intuitive, reasonable engraving quality. The reason I don't use it as much anymore is that I put a ton of annotation inside the score, and use it mainly for sketching rather then a full score (or maybe a single performer).
I often write in the score what I'm doing, especially since I write in condensed score (3-4 staves), so I write orchestrational notes or the like on it - and Notion can't do that. The other thing is exchanging scores with other people who also need those annotations - Sibelius is better in that regard.


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## Dewdman42

I think notion best competes against overture5+Amadeus expansion. I prefer notion between the two because it’s more reliable, sounds better with the factory sounds and is supported by a MUCH larger company. Overture can produce better looking scores then notion so if you’re going to make printouts for players you might care about that more and overture is definitely better then notion in that regard


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## mventura

Dewdman42 said:


> I think notion best competes against overture5+Amadeus expansion. I prefer notion between the two because it’s more reliable, sounds better with the factory sounds and is supported by a MUCH larger company. Overture can produce better looking scores then notion so if you’re going to make printouts for players you might care about that more and overture is definitely better then notion in that regard



I do see that Overture 5 allows drawing CC curves for notes. I'll keep it on my radar. I hope many of the reliability issues I have read about in Overture will be resolved in the next update. 

There also are rumors that Presonus will integrate Notion into Studio One. I assume that would solve the CC curve problem.


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## thesteelydane

The main reason I stopped using it is it’s infuriating way of shifting notes forward in time if you delete any note in a bar. All other notation programs replace a deleted note with a rest, heck, even pen and paper, or a midi piano roll for that matter, leaves all other things in place, but Notion doesn’t. I don’t know why I find that so infuriating, I just know it messed up my workflow. It’s so incredibly counterintuitive in that one regard.


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## Craig Duke

I own Notion and like many things about it. I don't like the keyswitching rules approach, though it was better than when we had nothing. Lack of CC control is a big issue to me and many as well. I gave up expecting Presonus to incorporate the feature after their so-called integration of Notion and Studio One. 

I prefer Overture keyswitching/articulations approach (more immediate, more definable, and all around a better design of the functionality) and, of course, it has graphic CC control.


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## mventura

thesteelydane said:


> The main reason I stopped using it is it’s infuriating way of shifting notes forward in time if you delete any note in a bar. All other notation programs replace a deleted note with a rest, heck, even pen and paper, or a midi piano roll for that matter, leaves all other things in place, but Notion doesn’t. I don’t know why I find that so infuriating, I just know it messed up my workflow. It’s so incredibly counterintuitive in that one regard.



I guess that's a matter of taste. I actually prefer it this way. What if you actually want the note (and the rest) deleted? If you want a rest in place of the note just write one over the note.


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## mventura

Craig Duke said:


> I own Notion and like many things about it. I don't like the keyswitching rules approach, though it was better than when we had nothing. Lack of CC control is a big issue to me and many as well. I gave up expecting Presonus to incorporate the feature after their so-called integration of Notion and Studio One.
> 
> I prefer Overture keyswitching/articulations approach (more immediate, more definable, and all around a better design of the functionality) and, of course, it has graphic CC control.


Can you explain the Overture keyswitching/articulations approach? Thanks.


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## JJP

It's not as robust notation software as Finale or Sibelius. For professional work it lacks numerous features.


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## mventura

JJP said:


> It's not as robust notation software as Finale or Sibelius. For professional work it lacks numerous features.



Yes quite correct on the engraving quality. But that aside why would I need a DAW over Notion (besides CC curve editing)? Also Notion has midi record and video integration. I am not trying to defend Notion I just want to know what I am missing out on.


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## JJP

Notation programs and DAWs are different tools for different jobs. Notation programs are optimized for putting notation on a page. DAWs are made to create and edit audio recordings. Which tool is right for you depends on your ultimate goal.

A DAW will have far more robust MIDI and audio features than any notation program. Likewise, a notation program will be much more effective at producing good printed output.

There is not yet a single program that can do both with the features and efficiency required for professionals in both areas.

For non-professional use, you may be able to get by with one or the other for both jobs depending on your needs.


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## mventura

JJP said:


> Notation programs and DAWs are different tools for different jobs. Notation programs are optimized for putting notation on a page. DAWs are made to create and edit audio recordings. Which tool is right for you depends on your ultimate goal.
> 
> A DAW will have far more robust MIDI and audio features than any notation program. Likewise, a notation program will be much more effective at producing good printed output.
> 
> There is not yet a single program that can do both with the features and efficiency required for professionals in both areas.
> 
> For non-professional use, you may be able to get by with one or the other for both jobs depending on your needs.



Can you explain what other midi features a typical DAW has over Notion (besides CC curves which I know is a big deal)? It seems a lot of folks are using DAWs just for midi composition (who want to write via staff) and I am not really sure why they are using them instead of Notion (since it can easily use any VI). Notion can also support up to 4 audio plugin VSTs per track (reverb, etc). The mixer also has 8 buses, send functionality, panning, etc.


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## JJP

The additional functions of a DAW are related to editing MIDI and audio data and producing more nuanced playback and output. They also allow things like complex manipulation of MIDI and audio data and more complex efficient routing for different effects and processing.

If none of this makes sense to you, or you can't understand why you'd need it, then Notion is probably meeting all your needs. That's great. Keep working with what you have!


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## JT

I got a free copy of Notion a few years ago and gave it a try. If it works for you, great!

For me, it was like a jack of all trades, but master of none. It didn't handle notation as well as Finale and Sibelius, and it wasn't a full featured DAW like Cubase, Logic, etc... And the other reason, nobody's ever hired me and said can you do this in Notion? It's usually Finale, if not then Sibelius.

Good luck!


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## rrichard63

JT said:


> ... nobody's ever hired me and said can you do this in Notion? It's usually Finale, if not then Sibelius.


I'm glad someone brought this up. As a hobbyist I don't need to care what formats clients might ask for. But it's critical for a lot of professionals. Same story with DAWs. How many folks use Pro Tools mainly because clients demand stems in that format?

I chose Notion for myself, mainly because of the links to Studio One, but also because I don't have to deliver scores to clients and because my engraving needs are fairly basic.


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## thesteelydane

mventura said:


> I guess that's a matter of taste. I actually prefer it this way. What if you actually want the note (and the rest) deleted? If you want a rest in place of the note just write one over the note.



If I want something deleted, it doesn’t mean I also want what follows it to move forward in time. It makes no musical sense.


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## Craig Duke

mventura said:


> Can you explain the Overture keyswitching/articulations approach? Thanks.


I'll do my best. These are the basics.

Imagine you have a score in front of you and you add a staccato to a note. Click on the staccato you just added and an Edit Articulation window pops up.











IN the lower right hand corner you select "keyswitching" and choose your note. In this example, I have defined staccato to F#0. If you use Spitfire UACC (which I use) you would set "Controller" to 32 and "Value" to 42 for staccato. In the lower left you can indicate that this definition is for the staff, the entire score, or neither (only applies to this one instance of the articulation). 

Most of the parameters are fairly obvious. "End of Note" allows you to define what keyswitching occurs, if any, after the note is played since articulations only apply to a note. I usually set this to a long sample. 

If you have a library with multiple staccato samples and want to use another sample for a few notes, click on the note's staccato and change the keyswitching, but do not check a box in the lower left. It will only apply to that note.

These are the choices for expressions but you can also add your own customs expressions with the "Insert" button. I could never figure how to add a new expression in Notion Rules. With custom expressions you can control any CC parameter by adding the custom defined expression to a score. This is not the main way of controlling CC data in Overture though.






Expressions have a definition window similar to articulations. 

I will often want to hear different samples on a series of notes and audition them. To do this I click on the expression and change the keyswitching attribute right from the score view, play, then change again. In short, you can change on the fly.

The other thing to know is how to save. What I did was define all of the articulations and expressions (well not all) on a staff. Then delete all of the notes on the staff and save it to "User Define" in the Instrument Panel (not shown here). This panel is where you drag over instruments/staves onto a score. I then us that staff to build a template and save the template. Spitfire UACC makes this easy because of their consistent definitions but for other libraries I would image one would save a defined staff per section (VSL Strings) or per instrument. It depends on how consistent the company is in their keyswitching values. You only have to do it once though. 

If some of this isn't clear, feel free to ask.

Craig


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## mventura

Craig Duke said:


> I'll do my best. These are the basics.
> 
> Imagine you have a score in front of you and you add a staccato to a note. Click on the staccato you just added and an Edit Articulation window pops up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IN the lower right hand corner you select "keyswitching" and choose your note. In this example, I have defined staccato to F#0. If you use Spitfire UACC (which I use) you would set "Controller" to 32 and "Value" to 42 for staccato. In the lower left you can indicate that this definition is for the staff, the entire score, or neither (only applies to this one instance of the articulation).
> 
> Most of the parameters are fairly obvious. "End of Note" allows you to define what keyswitching occurs, if any, after the note is played since articulations only apply to a note. I usually set this to a long sample.
> 
> If you have a library with multiple staccato samples and want to use another sample for a few notes, click on the note's staccato and change the keyswitching, but do not check a box in the lower left. It will only apply to that note.
> 
> These are the choices for expressions but you can also add your own customs expressions with the "Insert" button. I could never figure how to add a new expression in Notion Rules. With custom expressions you can control any CC parameter by adding the custom defined expression to a score. This is not the main way of controlling CC data in Overture though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Expressions have a definition window similar to articulations.
> 
> I will often want to hear different samples on a series of notes and audition them. To do this I click on the expression and change the keyswitching attribute right from the score view, play, then change again. In short, you can change on the fly.
> 
> The other thing to know is how to save. What I did was define all of the articulations and expressions (well not all) on a staff. Then delete all of the notes on the staff and save it to "User Define" in the Instrument Panel (not shown here). This panel is where you drag over instruments/staves onto a score. I then us that staff to build a template and save the template. Spitfire UACC makes this easy because of their consistent definitions but for other libraries I would image one would save a defined staff per section (VSL Strings) or per instrument. It depends on how consistent the company is in their keyswitching values. You only have to do it once though.
> 
> If some of this isn't clear, feel free to ask.
> 
> Craig


Wow! Thanks Craig! This is very easy! 

I see I can get a cross-grade discount to Overture 5.5 from Notion. Would you say its worth exploring? I also am kinda curious about Amadeus. Is it better than the base library in Notion? 

To add custom expressions in Notion you have to edit the source XML expression file which is kinda a PITA (find expression references in large file and then change it in multiple places and then need to call it in Notion via only a hot key combination  ).


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## Craig Duke

mventura said:


> Wow! Thanks Craig! This is very easy!
> 
> mventura, I see I can get a cross-grade discount to Overture 5.5 from Notion. Would you say its worth exploring? I also am kinda curious about Amadeus. Is it better than the base library in Notion?
> 
> To add custom expressions in Notion you have to edit the source XML expression file which is kinda a PITA (find expression references in large file and then change it in multiple places and then need to call it in Notion via only a hot key combination  ).


I believe Overture is available in a demo version. You might want to check that out. The interface is quite intuitive and has a good help facility. The company itself is different than most. Less regression testing on new software releases but more releases and continual feature growth. The owner can be a bit gruff but he is very dedicated to the product. Plus and minuses.

This is a what the CC interface looks like. Click a button or Shift-S from the notation view and it changes to this view for whatever track is selected. The lower left is were you select what CC or velocity etc. you want to control. You can play and record from this view or audition notes by clicking them. Select an instrument in the upper left side and the view changes to that track/instrument. Shift-S gets you back to the current position in the notation view. I don't understand why Notion or Dorico aren't doing this and its unclear to me if they are working toward this.





Craig


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## Vavastrasza

I use Notion and like it. My main frustrations: 

Lack of control curves, especially velocity, although you can edit note by note or play in the velocity with a velocity overdub.

Selectable scales are limited with no facility for custom scales. No harmonic minor, for example.

Single midi input only at a time. I like to play two small keyboards at once rather than one big one. I can do this in Studio One but not Notion.

It's also somewhat unstable (crash-prone), but not as bad as it used to be.


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## TimCox

I got Notion when it was first released (at the NAMM show no less) and used it for several years, even on my first film project which was a 48 Hour film. It was pretty apparent early on in my film scoring pursuits that Notion-to-ProTools-to-picture wasn't going to be able to handle my needs so I moved on to Digital Performer. Notion at the time wasn't very stable with hosting any kind of third party VI's so it was a pain to work that way. That's why I'm pretty excited about Dorico, it has a lot of the simplified workflow solutions for note entry that Notion had but essential features I need


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## David Cuny

I'm strictly an amateur, and probably an edge case at that. So giant grain of sand caveat.

For my modest notation needs, Notion is more than adequate.

But I got Notion with the goal of integrating with my existing libraries. It did that quite well, until it seemed it wasn't an important feature anymore. So when I upgraded to GPO 5, Notion seemed to no longer supported it. Sure, I could _make_ it work with some fiddling, but that's not quite the same. I bought it because it was supposed to work out of the box, not because it could be _made_ to work.

And also, _Ooops_... I shouldn't have upgraded to 64 bit if I still wanted to use the 32 bit version of Miroslav. Not really Notion's fault, but I could never quite get it to work with JBridge, either.

So after a couple of upgrades, I found I was using a program that was _less_ useful than when I initially got it. Again - for my particular needs.

I thought the Jazz Bundle would be awesome, and perhaps it is. But based on the demos, I could never get myself to pull the lever for the purchase.

I've played a bit with Overture, and it seems to have many of the features that drew me to Notion - it "just works" out of the box with existing libraries. The crossgrade is tempting, but for now I'll stick with using Notion for notation, and my DAW for driving my VSTis.


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## nilblo

I have been writing music on computers since the Atari 1040 and Notator era. The scores I produced in that environment, was never criticized by musicians for lack of engraving quality. I scribbled music on a piece of paper with a pen and then entered the music into Notator via the mouse.
Now I can write the music directly into Notion with a stylus on a 27" Dell Canvas pen & touch screen. If I need, I bounce the music to Studio One 4, edit the midi-data and bounce it back to Notion and continue my work. Whenever I feel like it, I take the iPad for a walk and work in Notion for iOS. I have Staffpad on a Surface Pro 4 but I prefer the iPad and Notion. Both systems for handwriting recognition are very good but I sometimes like to be able to connect a midi controller and I can´t do that with Staffpad.
When it comes to engraving quality, I´m not overly concerned with it. As long as the music is readable, it´s my experience that a musician won´t even bother to comment on the "lack" of engraving quality. Maybe it´s another deal in the cinematic score business but I wouldn´t know a thing about that genre.
I have Overture latest version but I litterally can´t use it. Notion/Studio One 4 ticks all the boxes for me, being a pen-driven "composer".


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## rrichard63

nilblo said:


> ... I have Overture latest version but I literally can´t use it. ...


Can you briefly tell us why not? Thanks!

Your comments are making me check to see if Notion is available for Android as well as iOS.


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## nilblo

Due to my physical restrictions, I jumped the gun and bought Overture on the promise that it was touch enabled. As it turns out, there are limitations (on my two Win10 computers) with using touch (and with that should follow Pen-input which I rely on..) on the drop-down menus. 
I´m hoping that these quirks will be adressed in the future. On the other hand - I´m very satisfied with my setup of Presonus softwares and I use Amadeus also. A library that actually holds all I need.
I haven´t seen an Android version of Notion. I got myself a pre-used 2017 iPad with 32 Gb Ram. $300.00


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## cmillar

nilblo said:


> I got myself a pre-used 2017 iPad with 32 Gb Ram. $300.00



You using an iPad Pro or other iPad?

Notion works will on my iPad Air, but being an "old school-still prefer-pencil and paper scores" for initial writing, I'm always wondering about other solutions that don't hinder the flow.

If iPad Pro, any reports? Have you found a way to use an iPad with your main DAW...like writing on the iPad and having it show up in the main Notion application on your computer?


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## nilblo

I have an iPad 2017, not Pro.. Use it as "pen & paper" on the go with a Bamboo Finline stylus.
There is no palm rejection with this combination but the small size of the screen allows supporting the palm on the borders of the iPad so I can enter music without difficulties. I haven´t tried to work as you suggested, I use the iPad as a music notebook only. My main workstation is a Dell AIO 27" i5-8400T with 16Gb RAM. Not a very powerful computer, I know... I have Studio One 4 + Notion 6 on this computer and the screen shows SO4. On the Dell Canvas I have Notion 6 where I enter music with a stylus. I navigate the score sideways and horizontally with a Surface Dial.
I think you'll need a bigger screen if you plan to work on larger scores with a digitizing pen. It´s hard to get an overview on a 10" screen, in my opinion.


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## cmillar

Thanks for your info.

Yes, I find the iPad good for small idea sketching....but could never do a full, lenghty piece on it (or on the computer with Notion) due to not being able to see the overall 'overview' as you can by using good old paper scores.

I've used Notion for printing out parts for smallish ensembles with pretty straight-forward notation needs. 

I've used Sibelius a longer time than I nave Notion, and still feel at ease and at speed when inputting music into Sibelius for printing parts from a master score (after I've done most of the work on paper) 

Notion (like Sibelius) is a great tool for getting a score and parts printed.

But..well...I feel they stifle initial musical inspiration compared to a pencil and paper and just sitting at the piano. Anyways, they are pretty handy to know and use.


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## mventura

Interesting interview at NAMM about Notion:


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## toomanynotes

Thanks for the video! Bit late to the convo, but for me Notion for ios has been simply stable, brilliant and one of the first to successfully implement the apple touchscreen for writing on the ipad. Plus they did this a few yrs ago.
I would love to trial Dorico out too, but simply can’t afford the windows tablet right now.
It’s all about writing on the go for me, the portability. I don’t have a problem writing full scores on my ipad pro. I once met one of the devs in London and he cldn’t believe that i wrote a big score on it. He thought ios notion would just be used for small sketches! 

Important note -
I have no need for drawing cc curves for notes etc depends on the end user I suppose.

What I do:
1. I write the score
2. I hear it back
3. I print the score
4. I have it performed by ‘Live Musicians’ (I wish) but sometimes.

I also get the impression that Dorico users want to make their scores sound as realistic as possible. While that’s nice, nothing beats hearing real musicians.
Of course Notion desktop has vst intregation too, but I still use the stock sounds as i don’t see the point of using a notation software like a sequencer? 

Yes There’s a lot of engraving/notation issues but equally alot of workarounds for them too!
It’s always handy to beta test and keep in touch with the devs for improvements as they are quite involved and helpful adressing any peeves we have. 

So i guess Notion meets my needs! For now there’s no evidence Dorico is anywhere near the functionality as Notion is for ios touchscreens tablets. So i’ll go for the tried n tested for now...and screw learning new software.


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## Nick Batzdorf

mventura said:


> I guess that's a matter of taste. I actually prefer it this way. What if you actually want the note (and the rest) deleted? If you want a rest in place of the note just write one over the note.



The option to remove time - either globally or on an individual staff - should be a command, but I think it's very strange behavior as the default when you remove some notes.

It should insert rests where the notes were. That's how every notation program I've used works, how the score editor in Logic works... no, it shouldn't second-guess you.

By the way, I haven't used Notion since a very early version. I'm just commenting on this particular "feature."


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## pinki

I have both. I want to like Overture but it is still crashes way too often for me and if you try getting support you‘ll be accused of being an idiot by a grumpy person. Notion community is not like that at all.


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## BlackDorito

I got Notion years ago at NAMM when they were handing it out - it might've been their first year of release. Going from zero-to-Notion was quite exciting and it was easy to use. Very inexpensive, even when picking up their various instrument collections. I heard many impressive pieces, some of them using a combination of Notion instruments and externally-driven Kontakt instruments. However, when I discovered what people could do with Spitfire, VSL, OT, etc. .. it was game-over. Notion can drive external VIs but it has significant limitations. [I haven't read all the responses above, but I'm sure I'm echoing what others have said]


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## Sean J

BlackDorito said:


> ...when I discovered what people could do with Spitfire, VSL, OT, etc. .. it was game-over. Notion can drive external VIs but it has significant limitations...



I've used Spitfire with Notion and rewire. While I'm avoiding rewire now, the notation GUI is a pleasure to work in. Notion is utterly brilliant for workflow. The only thing it lacks is better vel/cc editing OR real-time-integration with Studio One, so the vel/cc/tempo can be edited there instead. S1 and Notion should both be getting major version releases this year (S1 in a few months) based on their release history. They said they wanted to do more here, so hopefully this release will finally see some progress there.

Studio One is easily my favorite DAW. Cubase is feature-strong and a GUI mess. Notion isn't as beautiful as Dorico, but is a joy to compose in. So here's hoping.


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## Jos Wylin

I've been a longtime user of Notion. Before I even had MPP '_Music Printer Plus_', from the same developer (Nineties), it was a pure DOS application. With Windows, it didn't work anymore, so a stepped over to Finale (I own all the version from 1998 until now, but I have to say that I'm very disappointed in Finale and the development. It stopped evolving somewhere around 2012. All the later upgrades where merely visual changes, but they didn't add any functionality, they where rather annoying changes of positions functions in the lay-out. 

So I decided to start with *Notion*. At first I was overwhelmed with the intuitive interface and the ease of use (in comparison to the complex interface of Finale). But since I write music for live orchestra, I had to deliver neat parts and scores. That was the first small disappointment: the engraving possibilities of Notion were (and still are) very limited, and the midi or XML output as well!!! That means that it's hardly possible to export midi or xml to (let's say) Finale to build a good printable score there. Too many details get lost during export, as well as the entire score lay-out... But still, I love Notion for its easy workflow.

An other matter is the handling of velocities. As mentioned here, you can change individual notes, but it's not possible for groups of notes! For heaven's sake why? And I could sum up a whole series of shortcomings as to performance data (to name one: the mordents). All other apps have the most functional articulations in symbol and performance. Ive feature requested this so often, but so far in vain. Maybe you can program these features in Notion and other CCs, but I'm a composer, not a technician or programmer. Isn't that the task of the developers?

In the last years I always record a midi performance of my works. For that purpose I bought Studio One Pro. A great DAW, but again Presonus let's down the classical composers with their DAW. It has tons of features for pop music makers (without any notation), but hardly any for score writers. Here also the feature requests are being neglected greatly. And there is another matter. So many people have asked for a full integration of Notion in Studio One. There has been some effort, but nothing worth mentioning actually. Rewire (audio) is one possibility, midi import another and the last one seems to be the best: score import directly from Notion into Studio One. That is a real time saver, but again it's not perfect: too many articulations and performance symbols are not being imported. (Hairpins, staccatos and note velocity luckily are).
So I'm still a Notion users, hoping for the better. But maybe we - note writers - are a minority and commercially not interesting enough... I don't know.
What I do know is that in the near future the virtual music will change a lot and that goes for both DAW users and 'notationalists' .

The London Symphony Orchestra that comes along with Notion has a very poor sound quality, but it's so nice to work with when creating a new score (not paying any attention to the sound and techniques). The better performance can be made easily with other VSTs (some built in with decent presets, like VSL), but again these are only roughly usable. The rest must be done in a good DAW with full featured instrument libraries and detailed midi programming. As long as Notion is not an integrated part of Studio One (next to the piano roll) it will remain a time consuming business to create a realistic performance.

I don't want to persuade anybody to use Notion, but I wanted to give my opinion, experience and feelings about Notion. Despite the negative experiences here and there, I will continu to use it, until somebody can persuade me to make a change...

Jos


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## altruistica

toomanynotes said:


> Thanks for the video! Bit late to the convo, but for me Notion for ios has been simply stable, brilliant and one of the first to successfully implement the apple touchscreen for writing on the ipad. Plus they did this a few yrs ago.
> I would love to trial Dorico out too, but simply can’t afford the windows tablet right now.
> It’s all about writing on the go for me, the portability. I don’t have a problem writing full scores on my ipad pro. I once met one of the devs in London and he cldn’t believe that i wrote a big score on it. He thought ios notion would just be used for small sketches!
> 
> Important note -
> I have no need for drawing cc curves for notes etc depends on the end user I suppose.
> 
> What I do:
> 1. I write the score
> 2. I hear it back
> 3. I print the score
> 4. I have it performed by ‘Live Musicians’ (I wish) but sometimes.
> 
> I also get the impression that Dorico users want to make their scores sound as realistic as possible. While that’s nice, nothing beats hearing real musicians.
> Of course Notion desktop has vst intregation too, but I still use the stock sounds as i don’t see the point of using a notation software like a sequencer?
> 
> Yes There’s a lot of engraving/notation issues but equally alot of workarounds for them too!
> It’s always handy to beta test and keep in touch with the devs for improvements as they are quite involved and helpful adressing any peeves we have.
> 
> So i guess Notion meets my needs! For now there’s no evidence Dorico is anywhere near the functionality as Notion is for ios touchscreens tablets. So i’ll go for the tried n tested for now...and screw learning new software.


I'm just listening to your Soundcloud tracks. Really excellent stuff, have listened a few times now. Were these from actual films? If not, you've imagined and realised some powerful scenes and images. However, I'm a trained musician and and composer and can imagine real musicians playing your music, but if someone was listening to them who couldn't make the transition from the 'realised' sounds on your Soundcloud tracks to 'imagined' real instruments I think they might pass over your music. I agree with your comment 'screw learning new software'.....it is a PITA. I have Studio One, Notion, Cubase and Dorico. I've just recorded something in Studio One that I'm trying to realise in Dorico. It's nowhere near as expressive as the material on your Soundcloud and I haven't stretched my NI Symphony Series library anywhere near what you've done in these tracks. Are these the Notion sounds being re-played then?


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## altruistica

BlackDorito said:


> I got Notion years ago at NAMM when they were handing it out - it might've been their first year of release. Going from zero-to-Notion was quite exciting and it was easy to use. Very inexpensive, even when picking up their various instrument collections. I heard many impressive pieces, some of them using a combination of Notion instruments and externally-driven Kontakt instruments. However, when I discovered what people could do with Spitfire, VSL, OT, etc. .. it was game-over. Notion can drive external VIs but it has significant limitations. [I haven't read all the responses above, but I'm sure I'm echoing what others have said]


Just listening to 'They were uncertain days'. Very moving. What was this done using?


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## BlackDorito

altruistica said:


> Just listening to 'They were uncertain days'. Very moving. What was this done using?


That was done entirely in Sibelius 8 - I work in notation. I have 7 Kontakts hanging off it with various instruments .. which I believe I listed in the other thread. I pretty much tweak it in Sibelius, then I export each staff as a separate stereo track (WAV file) and import into Reaper. The export is a single operation for all tracks (using a wonderful Sibelius plugin), and the import is also a single operation. Once in Reaper, I typically add a volume envelope here and there while listening on monitors.


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## altruistica

BlackDorito said:


> That was done entirely in Sibelius 8 - I work in notation. I have 7 Kontakts hanging off it with various instruments .. which I believe I listed in the other thread. I pretty much tweak it in Sibelius, then I export each staff as a separate stereo track (WAV file) and import into Reaper. The export is a single operation for all tracks (using a wonderful Sibelius plugin), and the import is also a single operation. Once in Reaper, I typically add a volume envelope here and there while listening on monitors.


Thanks for the reply. So essentially, you're doing all the sample switching (key switches?) in Sibelius and presumably using different voices for different articulations if coming from more than one library? I last used Sibelius on version 5. I'm now on Dorico 3 but wanting to streamline my midi entry process. I've set up a template that achieves a similar thing and found out Dorico can export audio stems of each instrument, which I then would bring into Studio One 4 as I have a Presonus Studiolive Series 3 desk which is great for automation. Dorico's biggest selling point for me seems to be the way it handles parts and arrangements ......but having said that I hardly work with live players who read anymore. We can live in hope though.....Like I said, I thouroughly enjoyed listening to your music.


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## BlackDorito

altruistica said:


> Thanks for the reply. So essentially, you're doing all the sample switching (key switches?) in Sibelius and presumably using different voices for different articulations if coming from more than one library? I last used Sibelius on version 5. I'm now on Dorico 3 but wanting to streamline my midi entry process. I've set up a template that achieves a similar thing and found out Dorico can export audio stems of each instrument, which I then would bring into Studio One 4 as I have a Presonus Studiolive Series 3 desk which is great for automation. Dorico's biggest selling point for me seems to be the way it handles parts and arrangements ......but having said that I hardly work with live players who read anymore. We can live in hope though.....Like I said, I thouroughly enjoyed listening to your music.


I saw your kind words on my SoundCloud - thank you. [I particularly enjoyed your 'O Jerusalem'] I tried Dorico 3 but it wasn't stable for me. I'll come back to Dorico eventually, but for now I do indeed do the artic switching by putting commands on individual instrument staves within Sibelius. Cheers, Chris


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## altruistica

You're welcome Chris. Good luck Al.


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## toomanynotes

altruistica said:


> I'm just listening to your Soundcloud tracks. Really excellent stuff, have listened a few times now. Were these from actual films? Series library anywhere near what you've done in these tracks. Are these the Notion sounds being re-played then?


Hi Al,
Thanks for your compliments! I'm flattered..Never heard any feedback for my music, but I haven't been active in promoting my music..it's just there. I did most of these tracks for myself, using my little imagination!
I think it helps to understand Orchestration..I think that is the way forward for realism. Just the basics or how instruments stacked might sound. I always Study Scores!!!!!!! If you have access to a score you love, it's great to try to Transcribe it.. then refer back to the score to see how close you are to the orchestration. Well I think Notion does an excellent job of that!

Regarding my Soundcloud track Samples using Notion, well as far as I remember..I'll mention a few

1. 'John William's tribute' was done with Cubase in 2015 in a hostel with a laptop, Vst instruments mainly Kirkhunter's samples. I was just inspired to stuff as much of his film highlights into one piece!

2. Train Ambush was done entirely with Notion on an ipad. No tweaks, just as is.

3. The Last Goodbye = Notion again! But there could be a cheeky real violin line in that version, I remember updating it...but not sure if it is that.

4. The Dead Quartet = Notion

At the end of the day, real players will nail this stuff, I don't really need amazing samples to be inspired as long as I know how to notate it on paper...assuming we all had disposable income to get it played, but you know what I mean? That's why other new software out there won't really add to my skills/education, it's just a sonic thing. I recommend you buy what you want and learn the package...then just get on with improving your writing skills...whatever level you are, you're never done learning.
BTW I do love your pieces on Soundcloud, love Classical choral/Voices, I have an Ave maria of my own :D Perhaps I'll share it later.

I also did this piece 'Explorers' on Notion ipad (Link below) first before getting it played with real musicians, I could send you a mp3 of the notion interpretation if interested. Thanks Pin

*Explorers*


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## altruistica

toomanynotes said:


> Hi Al,
> Thanks for your compliments! I'm flattered..Never heard any feedback for my music, but I haven't been active in promoting my music..it's just there. I did most of these tracks for myself, using my little imagination!
> I think it helps to understand Orchestration..I think that is the way forward for realism. Just the basics or how instruments stacked might sound. I always Study Scores!!!!!!! If you have access to a score you love, it's great to try to Transcribe it.. then refer back to the score to see how close you are to the orchestration. Well I think Notion does an excellent job of that!
> 
> Regarding my Soundcloud track Samples using Notion, well as far as I remember..I'll mention a few
> 
> 1. 'John William's tribute' was done with Cubase in 2015 in a hostel with a laptop, Vst instruments mainly Kirkhunter's samples. I was just inspired to stuff as much of his film highlights into one piece!
> 
> 2. Train Ambush was done entirely with Notion on an ipad. No tweaks, just as is.
> 
> 3. The Last Goodbye = Notion again! But there could be a cheeky real violin line in that version, I remember updating it...but not sure if it is that.
> 
> 4. The Dead Quartet = Notion
> 
> At the end of the day, real players will nail this stuff, I don't really need amazing samples to be inspired as long as I know how to notate it on paper...assuming we all had disposable income to get it played, but you know what I mean? That's why other new software out there won't really add to my skills/education, it's just a sonic thing. I recommend you buy what you want and learn the package...then just get on with improving your writing skills...whatever level you are, you're never done learning.
> BTW I do love your pieces on Soundcloud, love Classical choral/Voices, I have an Ave maria of my own :D Perhaps I'll share it later.
> 
> I also did this piece 'Explorers' on Notion ipad (Link below) first before getting it played with real musicians, I could send you a mp3 of the notion interpretation if interested. Thanks Pin
> 
> *Explorers*


Hi toomanynotes,
Just listening again.
You must have studied music right?
I dropped out of Uni when I was 19 (2nd year BMus) but went on 20 years later to do a Masters in Composition at Salford. What struck me about your compositions was the harmonic language. You definitely have your own voice which lots of composers struggle or never find.
I agree totally about it being about the composition rather than the sounds (depending on what type of soundscape you're going for). If it is an orchestral mock-up, then the realisations you've produced here are more than sufficient. Each of your examples here really show your talents off. I think if I had to choose a favourite it would 'The Letter from Sachsenhausen', simply because it shows you taking a language and progression we've heard many times before, but as I said, your own voice permeating through it. It is truly beautiful and if ever played by top notch musicians would sound incredible (but they would have to be top notch because some of the string writing is challenging........samples can make this kind of thing sound easy).
I think I need to get an iPad and give Notion a try on it. I have been been vacillating between Cubase, Dorico and Studio One. Both Cubase and Dorico require vast amounts of learning because both can do so much ......probably more than I need. That's why Studio One was a refreshing change.
Anyway your track 'Battle of Britain' has just launched through the airwaves. Is this the kind of thing you grew up with? Excellent once again. I'd love to hear The Explorers. I'll try sending you a PM if this board allows it.
Cheers,
Al


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## toomanynotes

altruistica said:


> If it is an orchestral mock-u





altruistica said:


> Hi Pin,
> Just listening again.
> You must have studied music right?
> I dropped out of Uni when I was 19 (2nd year BMus) but went on 20 years later to do a Masters in Composition at Salford. What struck me about your compositions was the harmonic language. You definitely have your own voice which lots of composers struggle or never find.
> I agree totally about it being about the composition rather than the sounds (depending on what type of soundscape you're going for). If it is an orchestral mock-up, then the realisations you've produced here are more than sufficient. Each of your examples here really show your talents off. I think if I had to choose a favourite it would 'The Letter from Sachsenhausen', simply because it shows you taking a language and progression we've heard many times before, but as I said, your own voice permeating through it. It is truly beautiful and if ever played by top notch musicians would sound incredible (but they would have to be top notch because some of the string writing is challenging........samples can make this kind of thing sound easy).
> I think I need to get an iPad and give Notion a try on it. I have been been vacillating between Cubase, Dorico and Studio One. Both Cubase and Dorico require vast amounts of learning because both can do so much ......probably more than I need. That's why Studio One was a refreshing change.
> Anyway your track 'Battle of Britain' has just launched through the airwaves. Is this the kind of thing you grew up with? Excellent once again. I think I have just invented a new nickname for you ......'The Mighty Pin'. I'd love to hear The Explorers. I'll try sending you a PM if this board allows it.
> Cheers,
> Al


Again too bloody kind! Thanks
Yes I studied Music at GCSE (academically- for the first time) at 20..followed by a fail in A-level Music (lol) I wasn't the most academic student (I liked to party bck then)...but believe it or not I managed to secure a place for BA(hons) @ London Brunel University on the merit of my Solo Performance & Composition alone. I guess they were confused as to why I passed my Royal Schools Grade 7 Theory but not A Level. Yes at one time I could finish Bach chorale off...Don't ask me today!! haha
To be honest I have never learn't how to write music, It was just something I worked really hard at. I'm not one for analysing chords! Just listened to my influences like a psychopath! 

Perhaps the reason for my voicings you mention is my advantage as a guitarist?? I was told by a top pianist friend of mine who works at the Salzburg Mozarteum to almost never learn the piano properly, otherwise I could risk having similar orchestrations as the rest! That was his advice after hearing some stuff of mine. It's the reason why Berlioz's orchestration is different to others..He was a good guitarist and couldn't play the piano..

Battle of Britain, ha, well before I studied music formerly, I was influenced by leather biker jackets and Rock/Metal bands! I also played in a rock band for 8yrs in London, It was in this time I really tuned my ears and learn't a lot as a songwriter/composer. I'll email you the MP3's tomorrow if not later today!
Thanks
Pin


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