# Reason why you should not be a zero



## wst3 (Jul 22, 2010)

Interesting question, but the answer is pretty simple, at least it is for me.

I am not a zero because I hold myself to a higher standard, a lesson taught to me over and over again by many generous mentors along the way. I choose not to use stock sound effects or synth patches, but rather I tweak and process and combine until they are at least different, and ultimately unique. I choose not to re-hash other folks ideas... I may try to emulate a composition as an exercise, to learn how that composer or producer got "that sound", but that stuff does not get shared. I only share that which I think I created.

Somewhere along the path I made some choices that did not include music. Dumb on my part, but I was young and did not know any better.

So these days I put a fair amount of energy (and a lot, but not enough, money) into producing music and sound effects. Presently the majority of my work is for a local theatre, where the only reward is hearing it. No, that's not fair, the directors, other designers, and actors all appreciate my efforts, and sometimes the audience does too<G>!

Do I want to build my chops to the point where I can earn income from my work? Certainly. Will I be crushed emotionally if that never comes to pass? I hope not.

If I were earning more with my production work it would go to newer and better tools, but I believe I have reached a point where the tools are no longer an obstacle - and that took a while, and a few missteps<G>! 

I could still benefit from a faster computer, and a better choir library, and it will happen, just not right now. And either LASS or CSII would probably(??) be a pretty big step up as well. But I'm patient (learned that from my kids!)


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## Rob (Jul 22, 2010)

I think that, like many before us, we have to live this dualism... on one hand we cultivate our most radical dreams and visions of music/composing/performing, as an essential requirement to keep respecting ourselves and our beliefs. We write music and perform it with no commercial consideration, and we usually don't get money for it... on the other hand, in order to earn a living, we have to be able to produce music that has a chance to sell, and please producers/artists/clients, while striving to preserve a certain amount of authenticity which assure us to be distinguishable from the rest. So obviously none of us is a zero, as I'm sure you'll agree, only we don't have too many chances to be more inventive and creative in today's panorama. There are really many other considerations, these are just the first that popped in my head reading your post


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## lux (Jul 22, 2010)

well i want to be clear. I'm not making another "elitist" statement like many we read. i'm not stating any artistical grade/scale or anything else like that.

just doing a simple math. I really cant understand how anyone will be anything more than a zero (credits aparts) if we all make large and uncreative use of lazy tools. 

Its like having to choose a sport you want to compete with Mike Tyson and you choose boxe. Its just plain stupid. If we have numbers we should fight against tools. Be cruel with users that just use those without creativity, without "powers". 

People should choose Roberto as "he's the guy which can do stuff others cant". If Roberto just plays the same shit all others do (thats not the case with Roberto of course) why the fuck should he be different from any bald pseudo musician? Rob hope you dont mind being my example 

Luca


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## Rob (Jul 22, 2010)

lux @ 22nd July 2010 said:


> ...different from any bald pseudo musician? Rob hope you dont mind being my example
> 
> Luca



non no it's ok, but I'm not bald, I just have skin on the top of my head


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## lux (Jul 22, 2010)

you are.


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## bluejay (Jul 22, 2010)

Luca ... I'm not really making a direct comment on your central point here ...

Given that you specifically used Roberto as an example, I can definitely say that he has taken VSTs that I'd previously abandoned and produced such stunning music that I've been forced to go back and re-evaluate them. His ability to produce just incredibly soulful and romantic music from VSTs always amazes me.

I'm sure we each have our own strong point like this (or at least a lot of the members of VI-Control.)


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## Rob (Jul 22, 2010)

bluejay @ 22nd July 2010 said:


> Luca ... I'm not really making a direct comment on your central point here ...
> 
> Given that you specifically used Roberto as an example, I can definitely say that he has taken VSTs that I'd previously abandoned and produced such stunning music that I've been forced to go back and re-evaluate them. His ability to produce just incredibly soulful and romantic music from VSTs always amazes me.
> 
> I'm sure we each have our own strong point like this (or at least a lot of the members of VI-Control.)



James thank you so much, now will you guys stop talking about me?


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## Narval (Jul 22, 2010)

lux @ Thu Jul 22 said:


> What makes me think a bit is: what the hell should prevent you and me from being a zero?


A valid question, worth thinking about.

Not an easy answer, as personal value is a complex concept. And I won't go into the futile exercise of trying to explain it. Only this: there is no such things as intrinsic value (except for good will, but that's another discussion). Value is something that somebody needs to put in. Otherwise, what you have is: zero value. Of course you value yourself, as everybody does, even those that you think they shouldn't. But if you want to be valued by others, try this: service them, and always do your best. DO IT.DO IT. :D (I'm not saying that you don't DO IT.)


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## lux (Jul 22, 2010)

Thanks for the lot of interesting points.

I however cant avoid noticing how most (if not all) the replies cover an "internal" point of view, as they pertain the motivational system every individual has. 

My question is more related to an "external" point of view. While i can see that a personal motivation can give a value to the work of a composer, from an external point of view is completely different. 

So my question still is: what makes us different than a zero from an external point of view? What makes everyone, me and you, different from a zero when we just listen to our music? And what is our trend? Are we goin to disappear musically because of the tools or are we trying to be personal (which is a good reason one is not a zero) out of the same tools? And if we are disappearing does it worth it? Will it lead anywhere?


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## choc0thrax (Jul 22, 2010)

I'm an 8 but in the right lighting I've been told I'm a 9.5.


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## lux (Jul 22, 2010)

you are a ten.


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## careyford (Jul 22, 2010)

I agree with one point that I think you're making: don't settle for easy pieces and predictable gestures. If you have the talent, push it. Then push it some more. 

The other point about maybe we should be harsh and unpolite about hack uses of the same tools, I have more mixed feelings about. I don't think we should encourage hack uses. And I think we should be vigilant for those composers who should be pushing it (their talent) but aren't. We need to be responsible for being constructive AND shooting straight. 

And if I had the money to convince Andrew K. to take LASS "off the market" I might.

Best,
Richard


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## ChrisAxia (Jul 22, 2010)

Luca,

It seems you are worried that because in 10 years time every computer will have the tools to allow the composer to create amazing sounding music, that they will. We all know that no matter how many incredible tools you have at your disposal, it does not mean that you will be able to create great music if you have no talent or ability.

Stop worrying about this and be grateful that we CAN create amazing sounding music with the tools available to us. I am extremely grateful to all of the developers who allow me to make a living doing what I love to do. These great tools will allow the talent to 'rise to the top' which is surely a good thing.

~Chris


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## rJames (Jul 22, 2010)

None of us are zeroes or all of us are zeroes. Does it really matter?

IMHO the external view of whether you are a zero or not doesn't matter. I assume your question comes from an internal place. 

I assume there are plenty of people on this forum who make a living doing music and who live a happy life but no one knows that they are not a zero. If that is the case, are they really a zero?

If you love music, then you probably don't have much of a choice as to whether you pursue it as a zero or greater value. 

And a zero status could change at any moment. Will it be next week, a year from now or 10 years from now?

As to which tools are OK to use while becoming more than zero; some will become more than zero using loop libraries, some while emulating orchestras and others strumming a guitar.

To change the terminology slightly... in the pursuit of happiness, you need to be true to what you think are valid tools and stay away from the ones that make you feel like a DJ... all the while trying to sell your stuff to anyone who might be buying.

Its all about finding a link into the marketplace if you want music to be your only visible means of support.


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## lux (Jul 22, 2010)

it looks like i should not start threads like this in english language as i seem unable to explain myself as i would like 

I'll try with points.

- I have no personal problems with tools in general

- Being a zero is not a matter of quality. For being a zero i mean when a talented composer makes terribly cheap choices.

- Making cheap choices puts the composer exactly in the same shape as an ignorant noob. Both have the tools. Both do cheap choices. One has "temporarely" more credits than another. Both are mostly a zero. Who has to loose? Probably the most talented one.

- I've done this conversation before. All times it ends with my buddies telling me "thats what sells man, i just dont care. Be realistic." Then i read complaints about 30 years career composers being replaced by a kid with the tools. And i do the math. Why shuldnt it be, once those who can just waste their talent in cheap choices.

- We have the tools. They can deliver a "finished" product in a matter of minutes, expecially in the hands of a talented composer. Should we do that. After years, when people will listen what you have created in your life, they will hear 5 notes in no particular order out of emotional piano, 100 "one key" action beds, one note staccato ostinatos and stuff like that. It will sound like everything else. Then i'll know i've been a zero.

- So whos smart at the very end. Are we all getting that rich? Will the money we actually earn doing cheap choices be enough to cover the moment we will get replaced in the most easy way? What will we do when we'll have to demonstrate again what we worth? showing up our best "epic" library track?

just questions


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## lux (Jul 23, 2010)

yeah, kind of demi-social complaint. Mostly just questions i ask to myself at first. Not much of a frustration thing. But perhaps something we should make a little thought at, unless we consider cannibalizing ourselves and our future as a good move.

Of course i'll do what i do. No matter what i discuss here. Still questions are open imo.

you know, those type of threads can appear pretty cosmic in a forum realm, in everydays life i just speak with buddies about that, among thousand other things, and nothing sounds that big. Its just talking.


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## poseur (Jul 23, 2010)

lux @ Fri Jul 23 said:


> yeah, kind of demi-social complaint. Mostly just questions i ask to myself at first. Not much of a frustration thing. But perhaps something we should make a little thought at, unless we consider cannibalizing ourselves and our future as a good move.
> 
> Of course i'll do what i do. No matter what i discuss here. Still questions are open imo.
> 
> you know, those type of threads can appear pretty cosmic in a forum realm, in everydays life i just speak with buddies about that, among thousand other things, and nothing sounds that big. Its just talking.


yeah; understood.
i wasn't thinking "cosmically", though --- i was trying to be "practical".
ha!
i guess i simply i thought ya might be frustrated w/things you can't change.
so: my bad.
sorry.

d


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## lux (Jul 23, 2010)

poseur @ Fri Jul 23 said:


> lux @ Fri Jul 23 said:
> 
> 
> > yeah, kind of demi-social complaint. Mostly just questions i ask to myself at first. Not much of a frustration thing. But perhaps something we should make a little thought at, unless we consider cannibalizing ourselves and our future as a good move.
> ...



sorry for what? on the contrary, I see your point and always happy to read it. Yes on that point of view (not being able to change things) its frustrating. But maybe talking about helps. For me is a bit difficult because i end up speaking like Master Joda on most sentences. So i show a very serious (i would say "epic") appeal in my speaking also where i'm trying to be more informal


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## lux (Jul 24, 2010)

I dunno if Thomas is a right example. Thomas doesnt seem to use all over "one key" tools. He uses virtual orchestra which is a completely different tool. I dont think we can compare a kontakt patch from the most recent smart pre-cooked action lib with a virtual orchestra, which allows you to arrange all parts and play them yourself. It doesnt deliver a finished product at all just hitting a few keys.

I agree about personality. 

My main concern is that we tend to complain publicy about how rude the actual market is, while at the same time we try to get in every penny we can capture, no matter if you capture it just hitting a fuckin key. My question is where this leads. After years, you'll have to show your demo to people and what? will I have to write side notes to every title ("i had to use one key as i wanted to demonstrate how fast i can be") to explain why that demo suck? Again, i'm using myself as example but it doesnt have to do with me specifically, just pour parlez.


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 24, 2010)

lux @ Sat Jul 24 said:


> I dunno if Thomas is a right example. Thomas doesnt seem to use all over "one key" tools. He uses virtual orchestra which is a completely different tool. I dont think we can compare a kontakt patch from the most recent smart pre-cooked action lib with a virtual orchestra, which allows you to arrange all parts and play them yourself. It doesnt deliver a finished product at all just hitting a few keys.
> 
> I agree about personality.
> 
> My main concern is that we tend to complain publicy about how rude the actual market is, while at the same time we try to get in every penny we can capture, no matter if you capture it just hitting a fuckin key. My question is where this leads. After years, you'll have to show your demo to people and what? will I have to write side notes to every title ("i had to use one key as i wanted to demonstrate how fast i can be") to explain why that demo suck? Again, i'm using myself as example but it doesnt have to do with me specifically, just pour parlez.



But the interesting thing is to compare a Thomas J action cue with hitting one note. Which do you prefer? Which would producers prefer?

Sometimes hitting a note is all that's needed, and that's speaking as someone who thinks the opening titles to LOST was a work of genius (and ok yes I do know there was an added mystery tinkle in there). Of course that doesn't mean that one note will work on other projects...


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## lux (Jul 24, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Sat Jul 24 said:


> lux @ Sat Jul 24 said:
> 
> 
> > I dunno if Thomas is a right example. Thomas doesnt seem to use all over "one key" tools. He uses virtual orchestra which is a completely different tool. I dont think we can compare a kontakt patch from the most recent smart pre-cooked action lib with a virtual orchestra, which allows you to arrange all parts and play them yourself. It doesnt deliver a finished product at all just hitting a few keys.
> ...



right. Not a matter of how complicated thngs are. I'm a fan of simple things. I recall that interview to Terminator 1 composer when he just plays on that synth pad the theme, and i thought "wow". Simple doesnt equal to lazy.

I think we all have a clear concept of what "lazy" is when we hear it. Its just that it plays like everything else.


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## poseur (Jul 25, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Sat Jul 24 said:


> Thomas J Bergersen - he's a composer who partners with Nick Phoenix as part of Two Steps From Hell, who score seemingly 80% of all movie trailers. He's an amazingly talented composer who's done the greatest instrument demos for years... check out his current stuff for Hollywood Strings. Also contributes to this forum, lovely bloke.



thanks, guy.

d


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## Hannes_F (Jul 26, 2010)

Hi Luca,

if I understand your question right it means probably: How can we contribute to music as an art in a substancial manner? Yes/No/Maybe?

Here is a little story if you don't mind: I had an uncle that was a talented painter in his youth. A painter who paints pictures ... not a composer or musician, but read on.

He was not the best businessman and hated any hype about his person. Not the best circumstances in order to launch a career as a well-known artist (maybe the one or other can draw a parallel here). 

What made things a bit complicated was that he appreciated the art of painting so much that, as an academically trained painter that could come up with all the traditional techniques just like that ... did not understand why 'modern laymen' (from his point of view) had so much success with, what he though was more or less charlartanerie (another opinion for parallels here).

BTW he was 'discovered' by an agent once that wanted to distribute his paintings ... for a commission of 50 % or higher. Not really understanding the market or how important management is for an artist he thought this was bogus and let the opportunity pass.

Instead of this he went to be a stage designer for opera and theatre. With other words, he more or less stopped painting as an artist but poured all his creativity, knowledge and craft into a service (oh these parallels to our branch).

He kept all his paintings of young age and tried to do his own art on the side. But the job (that was so similar but yet so different from what he really wanted to do) took too much time. Production after production after production, and years passed by. More and more he thought, ok, I will return to paint my own art when I am retired. But he suffered from a stroke in the age of 58 which paralyzed his right (painting) hand. Lived peacefully up to the age of 74 but never painted anything again except of a few drafts that I carefully keep.

Well, whenever I think of him (and I really loved him as he was a great person) I warn myself not to give up my personal music projects. I mean those that are not commercial, that are just art for the art. I earn my money with being a full time musical service provider ... but at the same time I need the perspective of giving at least a small but substancial contribution to music _per se_ at some point. Providing service for others and braking new grounds for yourself - these both rails can go parallel and fertilize each other - but they are not the same for most persons and just make sure that they both exist in your life.


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## poseur (Jul 26, 2010)

great (hi)story, there, hannes.

as far as a sincere (maybe, "original") sound goes,
i don't feel too much like a "zero".

not really, even in my role as a composer for films,
where my job is still supposed to be a "creative" one, i think.

i still put in the time, the thought, the effort towards conception, in that regard.

i do not pine for the latest & greatest VI in order to make ever more realistic mock-ups
that might presumably be able to help supplant live performance ("on the cheap", for someone);
i'm not that interested in the "thrill" of seeing whom i can "fool" with these tools:
not the folks in this forum, here, nor anyone else.

i'm not interested in writing action-only trailer music;
i'm not "good" at that, apparently.
i fail at that.

i am interested in:
supporting/helping a story & its characters,
the honesty of the creative process (including orchestration, arrangement & sonics)
that maybe/might/could (eventually) move people,
inspire or help to reveal in them a "fresh" space within which to both feel & think.

if a preset works, i'll use it; but, considered in the context of my approach.
whatever gets the music right..... whatever that may mean.
anything i can do:
create sounds, play instruments, program with my own agenda:
whatever!

d


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## Mike Connelly (Jul 26, 2010)

lux @ Thu Jul 22 said:


> A recent hint/announcement just made me think a bit. Actually most (not to say all) of the sound designs coming from movies are made available as product by sample developers after a few weeks they come out. Most of times the originals were conceptual remix of preceding sonic solutions or classic solutions. So often nothing or very few is really new.



Just curious which libraries you're talking about specifically.


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## SergeD (Jul 26, 2010)

lux @ Mon Jul 26 said:


> i'm afraid that actually none of the above mentioned questions and discussions have to do with success.



Success is a bonus in life. But working hard for years and climbing beyond your actual skills is the only way to overpass the zero limit. That's what the book is about. 

SergeD


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## lux (Jul 26, 2010)

well, in all honesty i actually think i'm unable to conduct a full conversation about this matter as i dont seem able to express myself correctly and communicate the right concepts i have in mind. Sometimes reality spoils the illusion of a global conversation. I'm simply not a good english speaker enough.

Maybe on an italian forum i could discuss this exact matter. 

But thanks anyway everyone for the contributions 

Mike, that was that Diego Stocco kinda bass thing. But it wasnt that specific product to inspire in me that thought. More its the interest such kind of products raise on this board (like, as another example, the emotional piano). In general products which allow to replicate a famous sound or sonic trick. Their usage is of course related to the level of artistic indipendence the musician has and applies, but i can see how those kind of product will be use most likely out of the box in 90% of cases, allowing people to deliver a product to a client which sounds like something good and big, but its mostly a travesty.


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## JohnG (Jul 26, 2010)

Hi Luca,

Maybe politeness has held you back a little from really clarifying your position, but I think what you have said is valid and clear enough. Perhaps the lack of focus in the responses comes from the large scope of what you've touched off with your original post.

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## Hannes_F (Jul 26, 2010)

Luca,

I am really trying to find out what you are after here. Perhaps it is the title ... I am not sure I understand what you mean by 'being a zero'. A play of words?



> Sometimes i have the impression that half of the composers i know and see here, including me, are just hitting their own balls with a baseball bat. Buying and using the same stuff noobs use. Producing the same stuff non-composers do. And not being harsh and unpolite against every bland and uncreative usage of samples.



I am trying an interpretation: Do you have the feeling that you are a member of the target group for sample developers that have grown to an industry feeding the market with the latest and greatest 'construction kit' sound sets where you still can make some choices but the result will most likely be in a quite restricted frame? 

Like ... you can paint your wood duck yellow, green or orange, or make the feet a little shorter or longer ... but it will still be a wood duck, and everybody that is familiar with the existence of wood duck construction kits will know where you bought it. Something like that?


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## chimuelo (Jul 26, 2010)

Your story of a friend who waited for retirement to pursue his dreams was excellent.
I can relate as I am looking forward to next May when I can just do solo Piano work a few nights a week doing whatever I want, and composing.
I have done 6 nights and 4 days a week since my last road adventure in 2004.
My creativity has to be affected although I have no real way of knowing since I am too busy making coin...
I am healthy from having a 14 year old son, so I hope for the best.
And Good Luck to amy of you guys above since you all seem like decent folks.....


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## lux (Jul 26, 2010)

Thanks John and Hannes. Btw, Hannes, i appreciated your story.

John, as usual your interpretation is sensitive, and probably yes i'm trying to be polite or most likely to not put this out as a rant or some unuseful elitist farting about complex music, zimmer and whatever come handy those days to frustrated composers. As i'm not frustrated, at least actually.

I'll try with a little mp3 example.

http://www.archisounds.net/zero.mp3

- I opened host, loaded my own "ambient" piano patch i made a couple years ago, noodled 4 notes, recorded on the fly and bounced to mp3.

- I used the piano in the most obvious way, mimicking the work of another (personal and talented) composer. Mostly i know between me and me that that it will get me the job easy. I used about 3 minutes to do the work as i have the tools and know how to do the thing.

- my opponent on the gig is trying to use that piano in a slightly more creative way. I know that keeping things straight to Newman i'll win hands down. I feel smart for that and i'll get the money. I feel even smarter now.

- After a few years someone will listen an extract of my works and will think that i was just mimicking another composer, then another lazy work, then another one, no matter how smart i have been and no matter how many gigs i stolen doin this stupid game. 

- On the other side (client) nobody will care if i'm mimicking another composer. Its even considered a nice thing per se.

- Still the question is: am i really smart, or am I a zero and I am cannibalizing my own (and others) future and career?

Luca


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## JohnG (Jul 26, 2010)

Luca -- your piece certainly articulates very clearly what you're talking about!

Although I'm sure I'm not alone in suffering the painful recognition of lack of originality in my own work sometimes, I would rather go to law school, or work in a bank, than surrender and plan to muddle through as a hack imitator.

Originality requires constant vigilance from oneself and can remain elusive no matter how hard we pursue it, but it's an important goal, both for personal satisfaction and for money, in the long run. (Sometimes being original gets back to listening to oneself really carefully and ignoring what one thinks someone else might think of one's output, but that's another thread.)

Career?

Money is required -- plenty of it -- to sustain a composer over the long term. However, in the long run, or even the medium run, mere imitators don't make very much money but receive only the lowest-paid commissions. 

In my experience, there are lots of easier -- or certainly more predictable -- ways to make a lot of money than writing music, so if money is the only goal or even a primary goal, composing isn't the way for most people to achieve what they want.


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## George Caplan (Jul 27, 2010)

JohnG @ Mon Jul 26 said:


> Luca -- your piece certainly articulates very clearly what you're talking about!
> 
> Although I'm sure I'm not alone in suffering the painful recognition of lack of originality in my own work sometimes, I would rather go to law school, or work in a bank, than surrender and plan to muddle through as a hack imitator.
> 
> ...



i am guessing that most music writers do this job alone. in my background there is a lot of working alone but with pressure from the whole. there is a lot of positive thinking training at all times. there are a lot of imitators too.

yesterday i sold a position and made money. this morning that same position had risen over 6%. thats a lot of money on a position of that size. thats when you start to feel zero but theres always another day.


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## Dan Mott (Jul 27, 2010)

I'd like to ask a question.


i'm interested in.


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## Dan Mott (Jul 27, 2010)

I might misunderstand what you're saying, but are you saying that everything you hear on here is just noob/boring shit??? ... except Roberto's music. Hmm.. seems so.

See the thing is. Since alot of people can mmick other well known composers, no one in the industry is going to care if you don't have the connections or originality.

There are clones of everyone in this world which i was thinking about the other day and also from listening to alot of music. I think in the end it all comes down to who you know rather than what you know. I find that if you know someone, even if you aren't original, but atleast you can copy other composers well then you've got ther job because that someone you know would put a good word in for you, but that depends who they are.

This is why i compose as a hobby and i love it. I find that the music i want to get in inpartocular is just a stupid game. It's infact a joke and i'd rther perform than try to get into that area because how are you supposed to do that if you don't know someone. I know friends that have connections and in my opnion they are no good and are typical, but because they know someone in the industry, considering they are decent enough, or infact have the look..... then why not. It's all about money anyway.

For a long time i wanted to get into music, but even though music makes me happy, i think that making music for your self and expressing your emotion through and also doing it well is all that i need to be satisfied because atleast i've served my purpose.

Happyness is what i'm focusing on and now i've realised that i can be happy with my hobby and i can be even happier finding something to live for.


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## rJames (Jul 27, 2010)

I know... not fast enough for me either.

So, I'm gonna put one finger down onto Omnisphere and one finger down onto Evolve... and I'm gonna be a 10!!!

Seriously, how many shows do those guys score by proxy?


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## poseur (Jul 27, 2010)

rJames @ Tue Jul 27 said:


> "How to be smart," by Ron James.
> 
> Use this cue to get you the job. Use a cue like some other composer to get you another job. Little by little inject your own originality. As they hear your genius, you will be allowed to add more and more of your own creativity until one day, you will be writing exactly what you want to be writing.
> 
> ...



hmmm.
i dunno, but:
i think that,
as far as the propulsion & maintenance of creative integrity might be concerned,
the concept of pursuing _*ye olde "bait & switch" routine*_
has already pretty much proven itself to be a "non-starter".

at least, when painted in black+white.
which, of course, ain't how life is painted.
or..... _¿is it?_

d


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