# Orchestral Tools Refund Policy (OT HOLDING MONEY)



## mralmostpopular (Dec 18, 2019)

Just a heads up. If for any reason you decide to cancel an orchestral tools order, they will eat any vouchers you used without telling you.

That’s a really bad policy. It’s not like a simple coupon, and could easily be taken care of when they process a refund. However, if they aren’t going to, it should be clearly communicated before they go ahead (especially when you ask before they process the refund).

EDIT: It does appear to have been a miscommunication with support. For some reason they thought I wanted them to pay me for the value of the voucher, which was not the case. It’s been cleared up. However, there is a glitch that doesn’t allow vouchers to be reinstated. They said they’re working on it.

I am now having an issue getting them to refund the money I paid.

EDIT 2: There are now multiple people claiming that OT is not refunding money after canceling the order. Just be to clear, the orders were canceled without downloading the product, and we don’t have access to it. OT’s own policy and EU law states that they must refund in this case within 14 days.





EDIT 3: Orchestral Tools has begun quietly refunding people’s money. They haven’t acknowledged it, publicly or privately.


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## Maxime Luft (Dec 18, 2019)

It seems like a technical issue, it's absolutely not our intention to "eat your vouchers" as you said.
Please write to [email protected] and we'll get it fixed asap!


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## Uiroo (Dec 18, 2019)

mralmostpopular said:


> Just a heads up. If for any reason you decide to cancel an orchestral tools order, they will eat any vouchers you used without telling you.
> 
> That’s a really bad policy. It’s not like a simple coupon, and could easily be taken care of when they process a refund. However, if they aren’t going to, it should be clearly communicated before they go ahead (especially when you ask before they process the refund).


Did you contact the support before posting this?


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## mralmostpopular (Dec 18, 2019)

Maxime Luft said:


> It seems like a technical issue, it's absolutely not our intention to "eat your vouchers" as you said.
> Please write to [email protected] and we'll get it fixed asap!



Tobias told me that it won’t be returned. I specifically asked in my initial email if the voucher would be returned when asking about the refund policy. The response lead me to believe it wouldn’t be an issue.


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## mralmostpopular (Dec 18, 2019)

Uiroo said:


> Did you contact the support before posting this?



Yes, I was told BY support that they don’t return vouchers.


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## Henu (Dec 18, 2019)

Mmmm....vouchers....


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## mralmostpopular (Dec 18, 2019)

Henu said:


> Mmmm....vouchers....



All the vouchers!


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## robgb (Dec 18, 2019)

So, are you saying you can't vouch for their voucher system?


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## OT_Tobias (Dec 19, 2019)

I wrote that vouchers will not be refunded, not that they can not be used again.
I am sorry that this misunderstanding happened.
Of course you can use a voucher again after an order has been refunded.
In this particular case it just so happens that the refund of the order has not been fully processed in our system, which is why that particular voucher had not yet been reactivated.
I will see to it that it is and will of course let you know. Given that you just canceled your order I was not expecting you to want to use the voucher again mere hours later.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 9, 2020)

I was really hoping to be able to make a great follow-up here, but I still have not been refunded any of the money by orchestral tools. I’ve gotten multiple excuses (e.g. people are on holiday, we’re preparing for NAMM) from support as to why they haven’t processed a refund. I was hoping things were just down to a misunderstanding, but with it being 3.5 weeks later and responses like that they’re too busy getting ready for NAMM and essentially that they’ll get to it when they get to it, I’m not having a good feeling about orchestral tools right now.

I want to add that I don’t necessarily put this on support. They don’t process refunds directly. This is more a problem with company policy and the way they’re running their business. Orchestral Tools is a leader in this business. These kinds of things should be seamless and nearly instantaneous, not weeks later because they’re just too busy to get to it.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 9, 2020)

mralmostpopular said:


> I was really hoping to be able to make a great follow-up here, but I still have not been refunded any of the money by orchestral tools. I’ve gotten multiple excuses (e.g. people are on holiday, we’re preparing for NAMM) from support as to why they haven’t processed a refund. I was hoping things were just down to a misunderstanding, but with it being 3.5 weeks later and responses like that they’re too busy getting ready for NAMM and essentially that they’ll get to it when they get to it, I’m not having a good feeling about orchestral tools right now.
> 
> I want to add that I don’t necessarily put this on support. They don’t process refunds directly. This is more a problem with company policy and the way they’re running their business. Orchestral Tools is a leader in this business. These kinds of things should be seamless and nearly instantaneous, not weeks later because they’re just too busy to get to it.



just so we understand, you placed an order and then cancelled it? 

then attempted to use the voucher again, (on what who knows) now you're saying you haven't gotten your money back(much different than cancelling an order). 

as far as I know there is no refund policy once you download/activate a product from them


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 9, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> just so we understand, you placed an order and then cancelled it?
> 
> then attempted to use the voucher again, (on what who knows) now you're saying you haven't gotten your money back(much different than cancelling an order).
> 
> as far as I know there is no refund policy once you download/activate a product from them



Nope. Preordered Junkie XL. Canceled before release in accordance with their refund policy. Asked about my voucher, and posted based on what I was being told. I probably should’ve updated on that. They tell me there’s a glitch regarding reinstating vouchers that they eventually plan to resolve. However, they haven’t refunded the money. I never downloaded or activated anything, and the library I preordered isn’t attached to my account.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 9, 2020)

mralmostpopular said:


> Nope. Preordered Junkie XL. Canceled before release in accordance with their refund policy. Asked about my voucher, and posted based on what I was being told. I probably should’ve updated on that. They tell me there’s a glitch regarding reinstating vouchers that they eventually plan to resolve. However, they haven’t refunded the money. I never downloaded or activated anything, and the library I preordered isn’t attached to my account.


so you haven't received you money, or just the voucher - this is the part that isn't clear.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 9, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> so you haven't received you money, or just the voucher - this is the part that isn't clear.


"However, they haven’t refunded the money."

"I still have not been refunded any of the money"


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## korruptkey (Jan 9, 2020)




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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 9, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> "However, they haven’t refunded the money."
> 
> "I still have not been refunded any of the money"


you say that, but if I had hundreds of dollars missing for weeks I wouldn't be complaining about a voucher not working, that's the part that doesn't add up. Considering he apparently attempted using the voucher again immediately - I'm really trying to picture what actually happened based off the snippets of the story we got. 

again, his initial complaint was that his voucher didn't work - and while I can say there is a chance that instead of processing a refund they simply never completed the transaction, which case it takes however long the customers bank takes to release the funds from the authorization. 

but considering the user wasn't clear about his initial interaction(i.e. misrepresentating what tobias said in his email) I don't have any reason to believe this account is any more accurate than the last. Based on Tobias response it seems like he requested the monetary value of the voucher be refunded, which is what OT wasn't willing to do. (Or any company)

that's like going to the grocery store with a buy one get one coupon for a 20$ shirt, cancelling the transaction after it was entered into the register, and expecting 40$ returned to you, rather than 20$ and the coupon returned


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 9, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> you say that, but if I had hundreds of dollars missing for weeks I wouldn't be complaining about a voucher not working, that's the part that doesn't add up. Considering he apparently attempted using the voucher again immediately - I'm really trying to picture what actually happened based off the snippets of the story we got.
> 
> again, his initial complaint was that his voucher didn't work - and while I can say there is a chance that instead of processing a refund they simply never completed the transaction, which case it takes however long the customers bank takes to release the funds from the authorization.
> 
> ...



You realize that the voucher post was weeks ago, right? I never said I tried to use it again. I said that at the time OT was telling me that they wouldn’t reinstate it when I asked if it would be so I could use it in the future. As was posted here by support, they thought for some reason that I was expecting them to pay me the cost of the voucher. That was never the case, and I’m still baffled as to why it was interpreted that way since I used the language “reinstate” multiple times. So no, I didn’t misrepresent anything. Tobias apologized in an email for not understanding me. I was going to just let the thread die, but perhaps I should’ve updated it with that.

I’m now updating the post to add that they also have not issued me a refund with no definitive answer as to when that will happen. They have both the voucher and my money at this point. The excuse communicated to me in the email was that they’re getting ready for NAMM, which I found to be unacceptable.

You’re acting like there’s some weird conspiracy here when it’s really very simple.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 9, 2020)

thanks for clearing that up, so did they ever actually complete the transaction, or has it sat as "pending" in your bank account?

I had that issue once, and was a real pain - since it took weeks for my bank to release the funds.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 9, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> thanks for clearing that up, so did they ever actually complete the transaction, or has it sat as "pending" in your bank account?
> 
> I had that issue once, and was a real pain - since it took weeks for my bank to release the funds.



Yes, the transaction was complete. They have the money. They have told me that they have yet to process the refund. Orchestral Tools is not a one man operation, so unless there’s a huge backlog of refunds somehow, there should be no excuse. If it’s more than a click of a button for someone, their process needs to be fixed.

As a side story, once during college I tried to buy a guitar at a shop and a new employee didn’t know what they were doing and ran my bank card through dozens of times. Despite the manger canceling the transactions, it ended up putting a hold on my entire bank account. Luckily, I was able to have my parents cover me for the two weeks it took for the bank to release the funds. Not fun.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 9, 2020)

mralmostpopular said:


> Yes, the transaction was complete. They have the money. They have told me that they have yet to process the refund. Orchestral Tools is not a one man operation, so unless there’s a huge backlog of refunds somehow, there should be no excuse. If it’s more than a click of a button for someone, their process needs to be fixed.
> 
> As a side story, once during college I tried to buy a guitar at a shop and a new employee didn’t know what they were doing and ran my bank card through dozens of times. Despite the manger canceling the transactions, it ended up putting a hold on my entire bank account. Luckily, I was able to have my parents cover me for the two weeks it took for the bank to release the funds. Not fun.



I remember when I was working at an ice cream shop and the girl I worked with ran this family's credit card, and instead of entering 0s she hit the "00" button multiple times and charged their card like 10,000$. they were on vacation and it instantly locked their card, so she singled handedly ruined their entire vacation. Same one who couldn't wait to complain about minimum wage and what she thought should earn LOL.

suprised the refund hasn't been processed yet. I know sometimes it can take like 3-5 business days but seems like it's been long enough for the usual delays to take place already. Sorry to hear about your experience, keep us updated


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 9, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I remember when I was working at an ice cream shop and the girl I worked with ran this family's credit card, and instead of entering 0s she hit the "00" button multiple times and charged their card like 10,000$. they were on vacation and it instantly locked their card, so she singled handedly ruined their entire vacation. Same one who couldn't wait to complain about minimum wage and what she thought should earn LOL.



Yikes. That’s awful. It’s crazy how a mistake like that can have such an effect.


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## Michael Antrum (Jan 10, 2020)

I was working in Sierra Leone in the aftermath of the war in the early noughties, and without thinking tried to make an online payment using my debit card from Freetown. (Ironically enough it was a payment to my mobile phone provider).

I think they must have clocked the IP address, and the ensuing mess took a lot of time and effort to sort out - particularly as the communications were at the time a trifle fraught. I'm now much more circumspect when using my plastic.... (and always carry plastic from two completely separate banks - just in case).


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## Zero&One (Jan 10, 2020)

A refund shouldn’t take almost a month, not on. Really hope you get sorted soon and they compensate you in some way.
Might give you a NAMM ticket


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 10, 2020)

Zero&One said:


> A refund shouldn’t take almost a month, not on. Really hope you get sorted soon and they compensate you in some way.
> Might give you a NAMM ticket



It could take longer than a month since the NAMM show doesn’t even end until the 19th. I could do a chargeback with my credit card, but I’d really like OT to do the right thing here.


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## Drundfunk (Jan 10, 2020)

mralmostpopular said:


> It could take longer than a month since the NAMM show doesn’t even end until the 19th. I could do a chargeback with my credit card, but I’d really like OT to do the right thing here.


I'm also waiting for a refund (probably requested it around the same time as you), but I'm not as worried as you tbh. They are a small team (I guess) with a lot of different tasks at the moment (NAMM, fixing the new player and the new library etc., Also Christmas to New Years Eve are often working free days in Germany). Tobias wrote me the same thing and that's good enough for me for the moment. I'm kinda expecting to receive the money next week (just a feeling). If not that would be indeed a little bit disappointing since 600€ is quite a lot (at least in my opinion). But I'm also responsible for the situation since I hit the buy button a little bit too quickly after watching the walkthroughs and got immediately discouraged after the demos. We shall see.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 10, 2020)

Drundfunk said:


> I'm also waiting for a refund (probably requested it around the same time as you), but I'm not as worried as you tbh. They are a small team (I guess) with a lot of different tasks at the moment (NAMM, fixing the new player and the new library etc., Also Christmas to New Years Eve are often working free days in Germany). Tobias wrote me the same thing and that's good enough for me for the moment. I'm kinda expecting to receive the money next week (just a feeling). If not that would be indeed a little bit disappointing since 600€ is quite a lot (at least in my opinion). But I'm also responsible for the situation since I hit the buy button a little bit too quickly after watching the walkthroughs and got immediately discouraged after the demos. We shall see.



I’m not necessarily worried, as I have the option of a chargeback. It’s more that it’s a ridiculous way to do business. You might be fine with it. I’m not. In fact, it may actually be a legal requirement for them to issue a refund within 14 days.

This is from europa.eu:


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 10, 2020)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> she makes an easily made mistake and thinks she should have a liveable wage for working? what a bitch.



If you want to start a political debate, do it over PMs. Please don’t hijack this thread.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 10, 2020)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> LOL the thread was over after the 9th post.



Not sure why you think that, but alright.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Jan 10, 2020)

mralmostpopular said:


> Not sure why you think that, but alright.


Fine


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 10, 2020)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Fine.


sorry if my comment tempted discussion, I assure you the point was not to debate minimum wage, merely to point out that she was probably the last person who should make that case. To soothe the disturbance I've caused I'll derail it further,

1. she was on her phone for 90% of the shift. when customers walked in she would finish her text and appear visibly disinterested in serving them or outright annoyed. 

2. she had about 0 engagement in what she was doing, customers would ask her what they should get and what her favorites are and she would give them dry and obviously insincere non-answers. People would come in a good mood and leave in a worse mood. 

3. we actually got tips aswell, so our technical minimum wage is actually much lower, than what she was getting - and we made nearly the same hourly from tips(i.e double minimum wage at the time) for the easiest job I'd ever had in my life. 

she got the job from a friend who stuck their neck out, proceeded to be the least driven, competent, and responsible employee I had trained- while also being the most toxic. It was in every way preferable to not have her there. The day she got fired she went to pick up her boyfriend in the middle of the shift, and came back like 3 and a half hours later. luckily I was working so it wasn't a big deal - I did the same amount if work either way, but I made a killing on tips that night. 

needless to say I'd called the owner that night and already had the okay to let her know she's fired(she wouldn't answer the owner's calls that night). Was actually a really nice night for me, and the shop. 

her blaming the machine for her mistake was classic because she said "it makes no, sense, it should warn you" inwhich I responded "it does, it prompts you if the amount correct, but it only works if you read it before pressing okay".

ironically the friend that got her the job was driving a bmw at 16, had rich parents- and they had her get that job for her to get some experience and work ethic. She actually tried at the job, and due to having to work with her friend she got hired, she wasn't friends for much longer. Really weird combination because her friend acted more like the spoiled rich stereotype than her - and despite the money to send her to law or medical school, she decided to become a paramedic. Hope that side story gave you some perspective on why I made that comment, and hopefully the wholesome happy ending will wash all the negativity caused. 

ironically my older sister was the worst coworker I've ever seen, she's in her 40s and still barely employable


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## C-Wave (Jan 10, 2020)

mralmostpopular said:


> I’m not necessarily worried, as I have the option of a chargeback. It’s more that it’s a ridiculous way to do business. You might be fine with it. I’m not. In fact, it may actually be a legal requirement for them to issue a refund within 14 days.
> 
> This is from europa.eu:


I am in the same situation. Requested a refund for JXL Brass on the Dec. 16 and still waiting. Tobias first said that they should refund on Tuesday (last) but yesterday came back and after reassuring me not to worry he mentioned that they’re now busy with NAMM preparations. No idea why this took this long. Paypal doesn't take longer for smaller companies to do the same transaction.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 10, 2020)

C-Wave said:


> I am in the same situation. Requested a refund for JXL Brass on the Dec. 16 and still waiting. Tobias first said that they should refund on Tuesday (last) but yesterday came back and after reassuring me not to worry he mentioned that they’re now busy with NAMM preparations. No idea why this took this long. Paypal doesn't take longer for smaller companies to do the same transaction.



It’s a bad look for the company, especially if it turns out that they’re in violation of EU law.


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## avocado89 (Jan 11, 2020)

Yeah love the quality of libraries coming from the dev, but after having a similarly bad experience like OP had - I will not be ordering from them again.

Actually felt like the dev was mocking me, even though I hadn't used the library or activated it.

Yes, yes I know I am an adult, I am the one who hit the buy button and put in my credit card information and yes I know devs don't usually refund, because of piracy, etc,etc.

I still think they need to provide refunds though, they are still in the customer service/retail world, they are selling something, they can't just throw up their hands and say "That's just the way it is" same goes for us buyers.

I have worked in the customer service industry all of my working life, so I've been on both ends of it, I know the good and the bad. At the end of the day, it's not about "The customer is always right" , it's about not being scared to look at each customer on a case by case basis, and sometimes that means eating your losses. Otherwise, don't say things like "Sorry for the inconvenience or we apologize" because it doesn't mean anything and just rings false.

Anyways I know I am starting to rant like a crazy person now.

I'll finish up by saying, I take full responsibility for my buying actions, I just think developers should take the responsibility of realizing that maybe their libraries aren't for everybody, and how will customers know that until they actually get to try it out and test it for themselves? Even demos and walkthroughs, don't always do the library justice until you can take it for a test drive yourself.

End rant.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 11, 2020)

avocado89 said:


> Yeah love the quality of libraries coming from the dev, but after having a similarly bad experience like OP had - I will not be ordering from them again.
> 
> Actually felt like the dev was mocking me, even though I hadn't used the library or activated it.
> 
> ...



You can bet that if Spitfire were holding onto people’s money (which seems to be in violation of EU law), everyone would be up in arms. I don’t get it.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 11, 2020)

mralmostpopular said:


> You can bet that if Spitfire were holding onto people’s money (which seems to be in violation of EU law), everyone would be up in arms. I don’t get it.


honestly just waiting for OT to explain. I know they are backlogged quite a bit on support emails(it took weeks to respond to my feedback) not that it excuses it, but I can't help but wonder what is holding them back. 

never had an issue with OT but I also haven't cancelled a preorder. Anyone cancel a preorder for this and get their refund? or has anyone gotten a refund for a canceled preorder of their previous libraries?


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## Drundfunk (Jan 12, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> honestly just waiting for OT to explain. I know they are backlogged quite a bit on support emails(it took weeks to respond to my feedback) not that it excuses it, but I can't help but wonder what is holding them back.
> 
> never had an issue with OT but I also haven't cancelled a preorder. Anyone cancel a preorder for this and get their refund? or has anyone gotten a refund for a canceled preorder of their previous libraries?


There is no doubt about that they offer refunds as long as one didn't download the library in question. I actually got the tip from someone here on the forum and asked OT about it before requesting the refund. The library also got deleted from my account so at the moment I neither have the library nor the money, so I believe it's only a matter of time. Why this takes so long? Maybe it has to do with accounting reasons since it's the end of the year (taxes etc.). I don't know, but I do expect a sincere apology when the matter got solved since this is indeed quite strange.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 13, 2020)

Drundfunk said:


> There is no doubt about that they offer refunds as long as one didn't download the library in question. I actually got the tip from someone here on the forum and asked OT about it before requesting the refund. The library also got deleted from my account so at the moment I neither have the library nor the money, so I believe it's only a matter of time. Why this takes so long? Maybe it has to do with accounting reasons since it's the end of the year (taxes etc.). I don't know, but I do expect a sincere apology when the matter got solved since this is indeed quite strange.



I believe that was me who responded to you in the Junkie XL thread. They’ve sent messages to more than one person that they’re too busy with getting ready for NAMM. The fact remains that according to the EU, they legally have a certain timeframe in which to refund, regardless of whether that’s inconvenient for them.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 15, 2020)

Has anyone heard from OT, or have they basically gone underground at this point?


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## Drundfunk (Jan 15, 2020)

mralmostpopular said:


> Has anyone heard from OT, or have they basically gone underground at this point?


I get a feeling that this won't be addressed until NAMM is over. Just makes me wonder if their whole team including the accountant is there (or if they even have someone in their team only responsible for finances) and why those refunds were not processed before they went to LA. When I requested the refund they said it will take at least 24 hours but could take up to a week depending on the service I used to pay for it and that I should contact them if I didn't receive the money after a week. That was mid December. So I contacted them in the beginning of the new year since I was on vacation and got the reply from Tobias that he talked to accounting and that there were some delays due to holidays (which I do understand), but now they are busy with NAMM etc.. But yeah I get a little bit impatient as well at this point, because I'm not a bank and it's been a month now.......... .


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## Mike Fox (Jan 15, 2020)

Damn. Is it really that hard to hop online for 5 minutes to issue someone a refund???


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## Gingerbread (Jan 15, 2020)

I'm betting that NAMM hasn't stopped them from _accepting_ new sales of their libraries. 

Priorities, people!


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 15, 2020)

Drundfunk said:


> I get a feeling that this won't be addressed until NAMM is over. Just makes me wonder if their whole team including the accountant is there (or if they even have someone in their team only responsible for finances) and why those refunds were not processed before they went to LA. When I requested the refund they said it will take at least 24 hours but could take up to a week depending on the service I used to pay for it and that I should contact them if I didn't receive the money after a week. That was mid December. So I contacted them in the beginning of the new year since I was on vacation and got the reply from Tobias that he talked to accounting and that there were some delays due to holidays (which I do understand), but now they are busy with NAMM etc.. But yeah I get a little bit impatient as well at this point, because I'm not a bank and it's been a month now.......... .



I’m probably going to do a chargeback at this point. I really don’t want to because I know they get fined, but at some point, I’m not going to wait for yet another reason that they’re too busy.



Mike Fox said:


> Damn. Is it really that hard to hop online for 5 minutes to issue someone a refund???



It probably wouldn’t take more than 5 minutes total to issue all the refunds. The payment tools these days make it so easy, especially paypal.


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## Drundfunk (Jan 15, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> Damn. Is it really that hard to hop online for 5 minutes to issue someone a refund???


I don't know, but I do expect a proper/detailed explanation when this got resolved and a sincere apology. I really do like their libraries (although Junkie XL Brass isn't necessarily up my alley I guess. Don't get me wrong, from what I know about it there is stuff I like about it (the softer dynamics for example or being able to choose between different section sizes), but just at the moment I wouldn't want to spend 600€ on it (now 700€)) and SINE looks good.....



Gingerbread said:


> I'm betting that NAMM hasn't stopped them from _accepting_ new sales of their libraries.
> 
> Priorities, people!


New sales are usually an automated process, so this is most likely not affected by them not being in their office


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 15, 2020)

Drundfunk said:


> I don't know, but I do expect a proper/detailed explanation when this got resolved and a sincere apology. I really do like their libraries (although Junkie XL Brass isn't necessarily up my alley I guess) and SINE looks fantastic.....



That’s the thing. I’m really disappointed because I’m not sure I’ll want to do business with them in the future. The Sine player looks great, and I think they’re putting a lot of thought into how composers work. I’ve recommended Inspire to so many new composers, but will be hesitant to do so in the future.

The attitude that we’ll get it when they get to it is so anti-consumer. I don’t get it. I suppose they get away with it because of how beloved they are.


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## Drundfunk (Jan 15, 2020)

mralmostpopular said:


> That’s the thing. I’m really disappointed because I’m not sure I’ll want to do business with them in the future. The Sine player looks great, and I think they’re putting a lot of thought into how composers work. I’ve recommended Inspire to so many new composers, but will be hesitant to do so in the future.
> 
> The attitude that we’ll get it when they get to it is so anti-consumer. I don’t get it. I suppose they get away with it because of how beloved they are.


Nah I'm not someone to hold grudges if there is a good explanation (one which satisfies me). Requesting a refund is also something which usually doesn't happen very often (because you can only do it if you didn't download). As I said before, I'm also partly responsible for having to request it in the first place, but the more time passes the less blame I'll take on myself. I just hope this gets resolved soon.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 15, 2020)

Drundfunk said:


> Nah I'm not someone to hold grudges if there is a good explanation (one which satisfies me). Requesting a refund is also something which usually doesn't happen very often (because you can only do it if you didn't download). As I said before, I'm also partly responsible for having to request it in the first place, but the more time passes the less blame I'll take on myself. I just hope this gets resolved soon.



I don’t know. It’s even in OT’s terms and conditions. You’re not at fault for requesting something they are required to provide. They’re not doing that as a favor. The law in their country states that they have to. In fact, the policy is one of the reasons I was comfortable pre-ordering in the first place.


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## Drundfunk (Jan 15, 2020)

mralmostpopular said:


> I don’t know. It’s even in OT’s terms and conditions. You’re not at fault for requesting something they are required to provide. They’re not doing that as a favor. The law in their country states that they have to. In fact, the policy is one of the reasons I was comfortable pre-ordering in the first place.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not really seeing myself at fault for requesting the refund but for hitting the buy button in the first place. I just was a little bit overhasty and yeah that's on me . Lesson learned (I hope).


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## Mike Fox (Jan 15, 2020)

"No later than fourteen days"

I certainly hope OT not only issues your refund, but also compensates you in some way.


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## Polkasound (Jan 15, 2020)

mralmostpopular said:


> I’m probably going to do a chargeback at this point. I really don’t want to because I know they get fined, but at some point, I’m not going to wait for yet another reason that they’re too busy.



I recommend you do that. If the person at OT who handles refunds is neither sick nor dead, then OT has no valid excuse for failing to have issued your refund by now.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 15, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> "No later than fourteen days"
> 
> I certainly hope OT not only issues your refund, but also compensates you in some way.



I’m sure they’ll be happy to offer a free copy of Layers. 😉


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## Tfis (Jan 15, 2020)

It's hard to believe, that after three pages no one from OT did answer.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 15, 2020)

Tfis said:


> It's hardly to believe, that after three pages no one from OT did answer.



I‘ll be surprised if they do.


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## Drundfunk (Jan 15, 2020)

At least they had time to announce their new library.




Sometimes I think I might be way too relaxed and forgiving in general, but on the other hand I think my life is hard and stressful enough as it is and I don't want to deal with stuff like this. I just really hope they address this soon (and I'd like to see them doing it. Really not in the mood to fill out a PayPal-form)...and then I never want to think about it ever again.


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## Leo (Jan 15, 2020)

C-Wave said:


> I am in the same situation. Requested a refund for JXL Brass on the Dec. 16 and still waiting. Tobias first said that they should refund on Tuesday (last) but yesterday came back and after reassuring me not to worry he mentioned that they’re now busy with NAMM preparations. No idea why this took this long. Paypal doesn't take longer for smaller companies to do the same transaction.


same as you, I also requested a refund for JXL (not downloaded, no activated..) and yes, now I have de-activate (edit in OT site) library, but no money as well (but in my case is now "only" 3 weeks).


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 15, 2020)

Drundfunk said:


> At least they had time to announce their new library.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I hear you. If I do a chargeback, it can take up to 3 months. I want @OrchestralTools to do the right thing.

Honestly, this doesn’t look particularly good for them as a company. If they can’t get this part right, it points to issues with their administrative side. I can’t deny that they do well with sampling/programming, but they’re in the business of consumer sales. Why is this process bouncing around several departments? Support should easily be able to initiate a refund? This isn’t the 1980s where they have to process on paper by hand.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 15, 2020)

Leo said:


> same as you, I also requested a refund for JXL (not downloaded, no activated..) and yes, now I have de-activate (edit in OT site) library, but no money as well (but in my case is now "only" 3 weeks).



It’s still outside the window in which they should be issuing refunds. The holiday thing made some sense, so I didn’t press on that. The NAMM thing didn’t sit right with me.

Now they’re ignoring this thread while actively posting about how awesome their new free library is. Enough is enough. The owners need to fire their accounting person, and get online themselves and fix this.


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## jiten (Jan 15, 2020)

So I'm in the same boat. I guess there are more of us than we thought! Asked for a refund around mid-December (pre-ordered then canceled before the pre-order period ended so never was part of the release).

Anyways, I emailed OT last week and Tobias did mention they were very (very) sorry about the delay and also got the explanation of delays due to holidays and NAMM prep. I can only speculate that maybe they are shifting the backend of how payments / orders are set up and processed (maybe in anticipation of rolling out the a la carte purchase options?) or maybe there is some complication in how they have their accounting and invoicing set up that is preventing them from issuing quick refunds.

I also asked if this would all be resolved by the end of the month and he did say it will be done before then. That's when I usually pay my credit card statements so I guess it doesn't really affect me all that much until then. But can understand everyone else's frustration...


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Jan 15, 2020)

jiten said:


> So I'm in the same boat. I guess there are more of us than we thought! Asked for a refund around mid-December (pre-ordered then canceled before the pre-order period ended so never was part of the release).
> 
> Anyways, I emailed OT last week and Tobias did mention they were very (very) sorry about the delay and also got the explanation of delays due to holidays and NAMM prep. I can only speculate that maybe they are shifting the backend of how payments / orders are set up and processed (maybe in anticipation of rolling out the a la carte purchase options?) or maybe there is some complication in how they have their accounting and invoicing set up that is preventing them from issuing quick refunds.
> 
> I also asked if this would all be resolved by the end of the month and he did say it will be done before then. That's when I usually pay my credit card statements so I guess it doesn't really affect me all that much until then. But can understand everyone else's frustration...




wishful thinking, if a la carte was the reasoning behind the delay it would be a bit of a stretch, although that's a better explaination that "we're busy, sorry" lol seems like this experience seems to be exclusive to the release of JXL brass?


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 15, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> wishful thinking, if a la carte was the reasoning behind the delay it would be a bit of a stretch, although that's a better explaination that "we're busy, sorry" lol seems like this experience seems to be exclusive to the release of JXL brass?



Another user alluded to having a similar issue in the past with them, so maybe they have a history of this.


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## storyteller (Jan 15, 2020)

OT libraries are phenomenal. I don't know what I'd do without BWW. That said, these types of stories have gone on for years and have made it very clear that OT is either (A) Hard up for money and does not have the accounting management to bankroll refunds... or (B) Completely uncaring and/or dishonest people.

There isn't an alternative that I can see from a business perspective. That's the unfortunate reality.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 15, 2020)

storyteller said:


> OT libraries are phenomenal. I don't know what I'd do without BWW. That said, these types of stories have gone on for years and have made it very clear that OT is either (A) Hard up for money and does not have the accounting management to bankroll refunds... or (B) Completely uncaring and/or dishonest people.
> 
> There isn't an alternative that I can see from a business perspective. That's the unfortunate reality.



That’s really interesting. I guess it would seem that these stories get buried because I’m just staring to hear them now. OT gets away with it as long as people tolerate it.


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## Gingerbread (Jan 15, 2020)

Since their return policy is a matter of German law, who would be the relevant government authority to report their misbehavior to? I'd bet a formal government complaint would get their attention, especially since this looks like a pattern, not an isolated case.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 15, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> Since their return policy is a matter of German law, who would be the relevant government authority to report their misbehavior to? I'd bet a formal government complaint would get their attention, especially since this looks like a pattern, not an isolated case.



I’m not sure how reporting works when the buyer is international. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of information about that out there.


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## ridgero (Jan 15, 2020)

sounds awful...


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## tav.one (Jan 15, 2020)

This is a very unprofessional behaviour from OT. I hope you get your money back soon.

2 weeks ago I was about to buy Spitfire SSO but I didn’t because I got a medical emergency and had to spare a lot of funds for that.
Waiting for a refund in an emergency situation like this would be a nightmare, I can only imagine.


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## C-Wave (Jan 16, 2020)

Today is my 30-day anniversary for cancelling my JXL Brass order.  Happy anniversary OT. A simple apology is not enough anymore. A $50 coupon is so due at this point.


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## Drundfunk (Jan 16, 2020)

To bring some positivity into this thread: I just got confirmation from PayPal an hour ago that my money has been refunded (They probably monitored this thread especially after @mralmostpopulars tag). At this point I'm just relieved and I hope you guys get your refunds back soon (depending on how you paid this probably could take another day or two?). I'll monitor this thread nontheless, because I think a public apology of OT should be expected at this point. I don't expect them to compensate us in whatever way to be honest, even though this would be indeed a nice gesture (Red Room Audio once sent me a coupon for less. My email went straight away into their spam folder and it took them two weeks to realize it xD). Anyway, I hope you guys get your refunds soon!


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 16, 2020)

C-Wave said:


> Today is my 30-day anniversary for cancelling my JXL Brass order.  Happy anniversary OT.



Happy Anniversary :D 

maybe they'll celebrate by processing your refund QQ might as well take you out to a nice lunch, or maybe a movie date too. RoS is still in theaters, you can be the second couple that 



Spoiler



Makes out after they stab at each other


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 16, 2020)

Looks like we made enough noise because my refund also just came through. Not even a private email apology from OT. I have serious concerns that it sounds like this thing has happened for years, and OT doesn’t acknowledge it. There are some serious OT defenders on this forum. I suspect that once all is said and done, this thread will get buried and forgotten instead of OT actually acknowledging it and taking it as an opportunity to grow as a company.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 16, 2020)

Glad to see you guys are getting your money back!


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 16, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> Glad to see you guys are getting your money back!



I think discussion in the thread helped.

Ultimately, I hope @OrchestralTools posts something in the thread. I don’t want to hold a grudge, and if they properly acknowledge it and truly make sure it doesn’t happen again, I think we could all move on and be willing to buy from them in the future.


----------



## OT_Tobias (Jan 16, 2020)

Hi all,

it is 7 am here and I have been up since 5 am just reading posts and helping people with Layers. Did the same the last two days until 11 pm.
We have had massive technical issues with our payment providers which I will be very happy to address in a proper reply as soon as I can. These things take time to write, as every word I say will get twisted and turned (as I am sure this reply will).
All refunds should be processed now and of course everyone will get a confirmation email of that.
I fully understand your frustration, but I can say with the fullest confidence that my colleague and I have been doing our very, very best and there have been several factors outside our control.

Would anyone who has had a refund not processed within at most a week in the past please contact me vias email? I am genuinely very curious, as we have very, very few refunds and I can not remember any that was not processed extremely quick since I joined OT in 2012.
That's why I would really like to get to the bottom of that, because it indicates some of these refunds were not made through the proper channels.

The refunds in this thread now are the only ones I am aware that have had significant delays and I can only repeat that I am very sorry about that.

best

Tobias
OT Support


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 16, 2020)

OT_Tobias said:


> Hi all,
> 
> it is 7 am here and I have been up since 5 am just reading posts and helping people with Layers. Did the same the last two days until 11 pm.
> We have had massive technical issues with our payment providers which I will be very happy to address in a proper reply as soon as I can. These things take time to write, as every word I say will get twisted and turned (as I am sure this reply will).
> ...



Thank you, Tobias. I have no intention of twisting anyone’s words.

I do want to note that because the refunds took so long, the exchange rate is pretty different, so I’m going to end up losing money. Obviously OT doesn’t control exchange rates, and they can vary from day to day. That’s somewhat of the nature of buying internationally. I can’t really hold OT responsible for that. However, had they been properly refunded when we asked, the charges also may have been able to be voided instead of refunded (which would’ve returned the full amount). This is why it’s important to get these things done in a timely manner.


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## C-Wave (Jan 16, 2020)

OT_Tobias said:


> Hi all,
> 
> it is 7 am here and I have been up since 5 am just reading posts and helping people with Layers. Did the same the last two days until 11 pm.
> We have had massive technical issues with our payment providers which I will be very happy to address in a proper reply as soon as I can. These things take time to write, as every word I say will get twisted and turned (as I am sure this reply will).
> ...


Tobias,
Happy to say that after exactly 31 days (over 4 x times the week you mentioned) I have been finally refunded today. I am happy to say that you guys have been extremely successful in teaching us all a lesson as not to cancel an order or suffer the consequences.
Although I have been critical of your quality control in the past I still had a good will and have been very forgiving in my attitude towards you as a company. Not anymore..
I will be very very cautious from now on when I order anything from you guys; JXL or anything else.


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## Uiroo (Jan 16, 2020)

OT_Tobias said:


> These things take time to write, as every word I say will get twisted and turned (as I am sure this reply will).


Oh come on, really?


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 16, 2020)

babylonwaves said:


> where do you live?



US.


Uiroo said:


> Oh come on, really?



They’re the real victim here. 😉

Joking aside, the comment shows a bit of a hostile attitude towards customers, and is indicative of the type of responses that lead me to start the thread in the first place.

I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt that there’s some stress after traveling internationally.


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## Drundfunk (Jan 16, 2020)

OT_Tobias said:


> [...]We have had massive technical issues with our payment providers which I will be very happy to address in a proper reply as soon as I can. These things take time to write, as every word I say will get twisted and turned (as I am sure this reply will).
> All refunds should be processed now and of course everyone will get a confirmation email of that.
> I fully understand your frustration, but I can say with the fullest confidence that my colleague and I have been doing our very, very best and there have been several factors outside our control.[...]
> 
> ...


Hi Tobias,

please don't victimize yourself here. So far nobody here had the intention to twist or turn your words. I do understand that working in support can be stressful, especially right after the release of a new library and holidays in between. Being understaffed understandably isn't easy either. But you also have to understand us. Normally a refund doesn't take up a whole month to process (and as it got also pointed out it in this thread, it is against German law as also basically acknowledged in your company policy). While it's also good to say "we are very sorry" (in general it's good to acknowledge mistakes and to apologize for them), at some point it just sounds like an excuse and not like a sincere apology. So you guys had problems with your payment provider? Okay. Shit happens. But why not write that in the reply you gave us, when we (well at least I know I did) contacted you to inform you the money wasn't refunded yet? Instead you talked about NAMM and about red tape. After 2-3 weeks this just isn't enough (and yes holidays were in between etc., but still....). Just saying "I contacted our payment provider and as it seems there has been a technical issue on their end. We'll get to the bottom of it and refund your money as soon as we solved this issues" would have been way more reassuring. At least I would feel way more comfortable about a reply like this.
Yes, we want a refund and therefore the company won't make a profit from us this time, but in the end we are not talking about a small amount of money here (at least I think that 600€ is quite a lot), yet we do have consumer rights. I consider myself damn lucky, that I didn't request the refund because a situation came up and I was in dire need of money. But that has only been my situation and others might feel very differently about it. I never thought your employer had bad intentions by not refunding the money yet, but I also didn't get a satisfying explanation for it (now we kinda do).

Anyway, I'm looking forward to your statement (I still have no intentions to twist anyone's word (I'm sure you don't really mean that since you are just being a little bit overworked and stressed out at this point). I'd just like to know how something like this could happen and why this wasn't properly communicated in the first place). I think we all just can learn from this. Also don't overwork yourself. Being healthy is important. It's okay to go to your boss and say "Look man, we need more people".


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## MartinH. (Jan 16, 2020)

mralmostpopular said:


> US.



You need to be aware of some slight cultural differences between Germany and the US.



mralmostpopular said:


> Joking aside, the comment shows a bit of a hostile attitude towards customers, and is indicative of the type of responses that lead me to start the thread in the first place.



Germany doesn't have nearly the same level of "customer is always right" treatment, that americans might be used to. As a fellow German, Tobias' reply seems perfectly reasonable and polite to me. 


And I wonder why you guys all ordered stuff that you changed your mind on so quickly?! To be honest I'm surprised refunds are possible _at all_. 




Drundfunk said:


> Just saying "I contacted our payment provider and as it seems there has been a technical issue on their end. We'll get to the bottom of it and refund your money as soon as we solved this issues" would have been way more reassuring.



Or it would sound like the generic lame excuse that "generic unspecified technical issue with some financial transaction" usually is... 



I'm just glad it got resolved and I hope I don't need to read many more posts about this in the future anymore!


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## kitekrazy (Jan 16, 2020)

Their website suuuuuuuuuuuucks! If they can't get that right they aren't worth it. Funny how a webmaster can delete an account but yet not delete you from the mailing it.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 16, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Germany doesn't have nearly the same level of "customer is always right" treatment, that americans might be used to. As a fellow German, Tobias' reply seems perfectly reasonable and polite to me.
> 
> 
> And I wonder why you guys all ordered stuff that you changed your mind on so quickly?! To be honest I'm surprised refunds are possible _at all_.



Frankly, you’re stereotyping Americans. People have much stronger protections in the EU than they do here. They’re legally REQUIRED to provide refunds. It’s not generosity. It doesn’t really matter why we canceled our preorders because that’s something offered to consumers. In fact, there was a statement about the right to cancel when we preordered. That’s what gives some protection when preordering. Sometimes more demos come out and you realize it wasn’t the right product for you. I would never preorder without some kind of cancellation policy in place.

If you think people being upset that a company wasn’t following their own policy, or the law in Germany, is out of line, then I don’t know what to tell you. Nobody asked for special treatment here. We asked them to reasonably follow the policies in place.


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## Drundfunk (Jan 16, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> You need to be aware of some slight cultural differences between Germany and the US.
> Germany doesn't have nearly the same level of "customer is always right" treatment, that americans might be used to. As a fellow German, Tobias' reply seems perfectly reasonable and polite to me.


Nobody here is taking a jab at the reply in general. Only about the part where he is talking about us trying to twist his words. This changes the tone of the reply slightly. But as you can also see in this thread most of us addressed it, but also excused him for it since he seems to be under immense stress. Also, I worked in retail when I was a lot younger, and yes, customers aren't always right (and some are so dumb it hurts). Just in this case we were right (the law states a timeframe of 14 days for money to be refunded after the request was made).



MartinH. said:


> And I wonder why you guys all ordered stuff that you changed your mind on so quickly?! To be honest I'm surprised refunds are possible _at all_.


 Our reasons are our reasons. People are allowed to change their opinion if they feel the need to. Limited timeframe to purchase with pre-order pricing, without having access to all the information might have had something to do with it. Refunds were possible because no one of us downloaded the library (check their company policy, they adress it there. But I'm pretty sure they are also required by law to do so (note: this is because we didn't download the library, so it's basically like returning an unopened product. Not to mention that by not downloading we avoided the rabbit hole of all the peculiarities which come with the purchase of sample libraries in general)).



MartinH. said:


> Or it would sound like the generic lame excuse that "generic unspecified technical issue with some financial transaction" usually is...


 And yet as it seems it would have addressed the actual issue. I personally would have even accepted a "Fuck! Sorry man, I seriously don't know what went wrong, but I'll investigate". As a customer you simply want to hear that your problem is a) acknowledged and b) worked on (right away), without excuses being made.



MartinH. said:


> I'm just glad it got resolved and I hope I don't need to read many more posts about this in the future anymore!


 Yes I'm also glad it got resovled, but please blink twice if you are being held at gunpoint and you are being forced to read this thread. I'm pretty sure OT learned a lesson from this and so did we.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 16, 2020)

I wonder if they changed payment processing providers with the launch of the new website/player? The transaction looked completely different from any other time I made an order through OT's website...

I do agree martin that germany(in the nicest way) is a different culture when it comes to consumerism. Many companies have limited support hours, sometimes no English US support in the first place - but damn do they make good products! 

roland interface, roland v drums, kemper profiler, native instruments s88/maschine jam - its no surprise it was only a matter of time before I'd end up owning german sampling libraries. 

out of those, ive never had to contact kemper support, but OT is lightyears more friendly. (roland V drums technical support is nice, but it's some weird 3 days a week phone schedule and email takes them eternity)


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## storyteller (Jan 16, 2020)

I love OT, but there have been additional issues in the past with payments like when the website changed over, then when BWW had an upgrade path that was intentionally time limited to force a payment or be left out in the cold. With BWW, they refused to answer emails about the expiration date of the upgrade or future pricing status leaving many to discover there was no upgrade path only AFTER the special upgrade period ended. Essentially they wanted money at that point and more or less extorted their user base into giving them money over the holidays when many had already extended themselves financially. That particular choice was clearly an intentional money grab and created with ill intent. Clearly money was a driving factor and not the product itself.

As for financials, they are running a technology-based business so I would expect them to be able to navigate technology with grace. In this day and age, no excuse should ever be placed on the third party vendors and new website platforms for refunds. Full stop. 

Things happen from time to time, but not to the degree and with lack of communication that seems to have been demonstrated here. Again, I love OT, but I have zero tolerance for a recurring pattern of behavior that has continued to pop up over the years... Just some blunt words that needed to be said...


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## Uiroo (Jan 17, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I hope I don't need to read many more posts about this in the future anymore!


You don't need to, and you never did. 

Also, as another fellow german, I don't agree that accusing people of twisting your words is perfectly reasonable and polite. Mind you, they are also cultural differences between different parts of germany.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 17, 2020)

Uiroo said:


> You don't need to, and you never did.
> 
> Also, as another fellow german, I don't agree that accusing people of twisting your words is perfectly reasonable and polite. Mind you, they are also cultural differences between different parts of germany.


I mean there was a claim that OT said they were going to eat the persons coupon - instead of saying they weren't going to refund them money for the coupons value

granted could simply be a misunderstanding, but that is definitely altering the meaning, and maligning them in the process.


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## Uiroo (Jan 17, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I mean there was a claim that OT said they were going to eat the persons coupon - instead of saying they weren't going to refund them money for the coupons value
> 
> granted could simply be a misunderstanding, but that is definitely altering the meaning, and maligning them in the process.


It was a misunderstanding as it says in the post I think you're referring to and is not the same as twisting someones words. Not to me, at least.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 17, 2020)

storyteller said:


> I love OT, but there have been additional issues in the past with payments like when the website changed over, then when BWW had an upgrade path that was intentionally time limited to force a payment or be left out in the cold. With BWW, they refused to answer emails about the expiration date of the upgrade or future pricing status leaving many to discover there was no upgrade path only AFTER the special upgrade period ended. Essentially they wanted money at that point and more or less extorted their user base into giving them money over the holidays when many had already extended themselves financially. That particular choice was clearly an intentional money grab and created with ill intent. Clearly money was a driving factor and not the product itself.
> 
> As for financials, they are running a technology-based business so I would expect them to be able to navigate technology with grace. In this day and age, no excuse should ever be placed on the third party vendors and new website platforms for refunds. Full stop.
> 
> Things happen from time to time, but not to the degree and with lack of communication that seems to have been demonstrated here. Again, I love OT, but I have zero tolerance for a recurring pattern of behavior that has continued to pop up over the years... Just some blunt words that needed to be said...


thats not a reoccuring pattern, IIRC that was only revive(which had been almost a completely different library at that point). I personally think the offer should have stayed indefinately for owners of BWW legacy - but thats the only real rub. berlin strings and first chairs got updates free.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 17, 2020)

Uiroo said:


> It was a misunderstanding as it says in the post I think you're referring to and is not the same as twisting someones words. Not to me, at least.


It's a matter of perspective. 

Somebody intentionally misrepresents what you're saying to malign you vs Somebody misunderstanding you, then goes to the forum to publically malign you based on your own misunderstanding. 

The only difference is that neither of us will ever know the original intent, and they look the same. Apparently support wasnt *careful enough* with the wording, and thus was turned against them publically. Likewise you have people who HAVE twisted OT's words repeatedly leading up to JXL brass, like those who a.) thought individual microphones were going to be sold. and b.) that the pricing would be the same(or cheaper?) than the bundle. 

Neither of those things were ever said, yet plenty of people twisted things they did say (individual instruments for sale, individual microphones downloadable//fair pricing with future options to upgrade to the bundle)

Maybe that's par for the course for a developer, but it happens, happens a lot.


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## babylonwaves (Jan 17, 2020)

mralmostpopular said:


> US.



@mralmostpopular - you've paid in euros although you native currency is USD i guess. of course I get, depending on when you bought the library, the exchange rate was different. look at the exchange rate, and maybe that's only me, but I wouldn't be to considerate. looks like it fluctuated around 1 cent, if so. is it that what concerns you? so much that you have to bring it up here so explicitly?

btw: using PayPal you don't have this issue at all, just with some credit cards


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 17, 2020)

babylonwaves said:


> @mralmostpopular - you've paid in euros although you native currency is USD i guess. of course I get, depending on when you bought the library, the exchange rate was different. look at the exchange rate, and maybe that's only me, but I wouldn't be to considered. looks like it fluctuated around 1 cent, if so. is it that what concerns you so much that you have to bring it up here so explicitly?
> 
> btw: using PayPal you don't have this issue at all, just with some credit cards



that's the one coin he was going to toss to his witcher.


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## NODZ (Jan 17, 2020)

storyteller said:


> As for financials, they are running a technology-based business so I would expect them to be able to navigate technology with grace. In this day and age, no excuse should ever be placed on the third party vendors and new website platforms for refunds. Full stop.



No excuse for what they did, but as someone working for a SampleLibrary developer as well, I can tell you that sample libraries and website-/payment system technology have almost NOTHING in common and I can fully understand, that they have to rely on third parties for those matters! So I am completely fine with them telling us about the problems with third parties, as long as those stories are true


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 17, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> It's a matter of perspective.
> 
> Somebody intentionally misrepresents what you're saying to malign you vs Somebody misunderstanding you, then goes to the forum to publically malign you based on your own misunderstanding.
> 
> ...



So, I thought this was cleared up, but you seem to still be confused about this. There was a misunderstanding between support and myself...on their end. Tobias apologized to me via email for not understanding when I asked if the voucher would be reinstated.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 17, 2020)

babylonwaves said:


> btw: using PayPal you don't have this issue at all, just with some credit cards



I actually did pay with paypal. It came out to a $21 difference. I said in my post that I wasn’t holding OT responsible, but made the point that if things are done soon enough, the transactions can be voided instead of refunded.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 17, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Germany doesn't have nearly the same level of "customer is always right" treatment, that americans might be used to. As a fellow German, Tobias' reply seems perfectly reasonable and polite to me.



Well, here in Canada we have decent customer service as well, it has nothing to do with the Americans, it's just common courtesy and good business practice. Good customer service should be a universal policy, anywhere in the world. I'm surprised at the lame excuses (and somewhat snooty reply) offered by OT, I doubt I'll ever purchase anything after all this crap.


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## MartinH. (Jan 17, 2020)

Uiroo said:


> You don't need to, and you never did.


Just to clarify: I meant the fact that this was starting to get brought up in other Orchestral tools threads, and not just here. To me that crossed the line to being annyoing, and I've seen others complain about this as well. 
I understand the desire (and sometimes need) to kick up a fuss publicly on a forum or twitter, because sadly it often expediates getting what you want considerably, as you artificially drive up the "cost" for the company to continue ignoring you.

But sometimes you just gotta be patient. I ordered something in December and got a shipment with 2 of 3 items being different than ordered and I contacted the company about it. Didn't get a reply, so I sent a polite reminder. Didn't get a reply again, so I thought I'll wait a little more and then escalate the issue over paypal's buyer protection. But as I waited some more I eventually got a full refund that included shipping costs and costs of the part of the shipment that they actually didn't mess up. Sometimes you just need to have a little patience and it'll get resolved eventually even without all the public drama.




Wolfie2112 said:


> Good customer service should be a universal policy, anywhere in the world.



Why? Have you ever bought something at Performance Samples? They make you acknowledge several layers of understanding that "Performance Samples is not obligated to provide you with any support in connection with the Samples", no refunds will be given and the products aren't flawless. It is the value-proposition that they make, and I very much appreciate the honest and fair expectation management. I'm also satisfied with the product that I bought there. 

I genuinely don't understand this "X should be standard anywhere in the world" attitude, when there are so many different ways to make a value-proposition and allow the market to either embrace or reject it. Different strokes for different folks and all that.




Wolfie2112 said:


> I doubt I'll ever purchase anything after all this crap.



Huh, interesting. I'm all for voting with your wallet and taking a clear stance for whom or what you want to support, so more power to you! I guess I just don't really care about service nearly as much as about product quality and DRM schemes.


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## Tfis (Jan 17, 2020)

Even here in here in Germany bad support is bad support.

That has NOTHING to do with another culture or so.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 17, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Why? Have you ever bought something at Performance Samples? They make you acknowledge several layers of understanding that "Performance Samples is not obligated to provide you with any support in connection with the Samples", no refunds will be given and the products aren't flawless. It is the value-proposition that they make, and I very much appreciate the honest and fair expectation management. I'm also satisfied with the product that I bought there.



And that's one of the reasons I own nearly every product from Performance Samples. They are clear about their policies, and whenever I've contacted them with a question or technical issue, they respond promptly and courteously. Even a simple response and acknowledgement is all a company needs to do, it's a simple concept.

I made an impulsive purchase from Spitfire last year, and before downloading, I decided to get a refund. Guess what? They issued the refund within 24 hours, no questions asked. Because of that, I have gone back for other purchases because I trust their customer service. There are plenty of good developers out there, and yes, I will go where I feel valued. 8Dio, Cinematicstudioseries, and Fluffy Audio are great examples of this (among many others). None of these companies are in North America.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 17, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Just to clarify: I meant the fact that this was starting to get brought up in other Orchestral tools threads, and not just here. To me that crossed the line to being annyoing, and I've seen others complain about this as well.
> I understand the desire (and sometimes need) to kick up a fuss publicly on a forum or twitter, because sadly it often expediates getting what you want considerably, as you artificially drive up the "cost" for the company to continue ignoring you.
> 
> But sometimes you just gotta be patient. I ordered something in December and got a shipment with 2 of 3 items being different than ordered and I contacted the company about it. Didn't get a reply, so I sent a polite reminder. Didn't get a reply again, so I thought I'll wait a little more and then escalate the issue over paypal's buyer protection. But as I waited some more I eventually got a full refund that included shipping costs and costs of the part of the shipment that they actually didn't mess up. Sometimes you just need to have a little patience and it'll get resolved eventually even without all the public drama.
> ...



You’re being a little overdramatic. One comment was made outside of this thread, and it seemed to have gotten OT’s attention. This wasn’t just a dispute with a single customer. There were several people involved in this.

If people can bring up the same stupid issues that they have with Spitfire in every thread, then one single comment, which in no way derailed the thread, is not out of line with the rest of the forum.

I also want to reiterate that the consumer laws in Germany are much stronger than America. The refund was issued because that’s German law. It’s been stated multiple times. Continuing to act as if the circumstances are different is just being blatantly dishonest at this point.


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## OT_Tobias (Jan 17, 2020)

Hi everyone!

My apologies for not being able to reply immediately yesterday, but I had to be at NAMM all day.
As I said, all refunds are cleared now and all users are informed - if yours is not, please reach out again, just so we can make sure that nothing slipped through the cracks.

As promised, I would like to explain what happened as much as I can. Some things I'm afraid I am not allowed to disclose due to 3rd party involvements.
We did indeed switch payment providers with our new shop, which was done mainly because of superior security and integration into our new shop system. Our new website uses its own shop system, so no 3rd parties are involved in it anymore up to the point of the actual payment (which of course has to be handled by a payment processor). This is done to keep all data firmly in one place and provide the utmost security. We have super high security for anyone with access to account data, which was one factor in this whole refund situation, as we first had to make sure there was no security issue in our system.
The first delay in getting the refunds out was that due to a technical limitation in our system (in case you're wondering: refunding only worked on a RELEASED product), which has been rectified now, we could only begin processing these refunds after the release of JXL Brass. We then sadly ran into urgent red tape connected to NAMM preparations, preventing us from proceeding. As I said, we are very sorry for that delay.
We have very, very few refunds, so the process for them was not as straighforward as in hindsight it should have been. It is now. I freely admit we simply did not expect any refunds to occur. As I said, they are very, very, very rare.
As soon as we arrived in the U.S. for NAMM, we set on doing the refunds, when our payment provider would not let us log in. We double, triple, quadruple checked all credentials, made sure all paperwork was in order, etc...
It took us four days to find the issue at the payment provider and shift the proper credentials so someone at our German HQ could take over. These things take time, because things need to be legally binding.
We finally were able to make the refunds then and have of course learned from this to have contingency plans for the future.
As you might know, OT is not a giant company, and the combination of technical issues with a huge workload due to NAMM led to this.

In my earlier post I had asked everyone with a delayed refund in the past to reach out. There have been no emails at all from anyone and I have not been able to find any significantly delayed refund since I joined OT in 2012.
It was suggested that this had happened (frequently?) previously, so PLEASE reach out if that had been the case for you. I am very eager to find out what happened.

On thing I would like to address as well is the repeated sentiment that the refunds were only made because of this thread and because doing so is the law. Both are categorically false. We deeply apologize for the delay in getting the refunds out and we are very sorry for the combination of unlucky factors that led to this, but we will ALWAYS make a refund as fast as we can if the conditions for one are met and this thread had absolutely no part in the timing. Refunds are (and now were) issued because the customers wanted one and met the criteria (download not started, etc.). No laws at all were any driving force (and would not apply here, as a sample library is a sync license, not a software product). This is also the reason why I have not replied earlier. We do the very best we can and a forum thread does not and will never influence how we deal with particular cases.

Again we can only apologize again and ask everyone with any issues to reach out.

best

Tobias
OT Support


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## Drundfunk (Jan 17, 2020)

OT_Tobias said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> My apologies for not being able to reply immediately yesterday, but I had to be at NAMM all day.
> As I said, all refunds are cleared now and all users are informed - if yours is not, please reach out again, just so we can make sure that nothing slipped through the cracks.
> ...


Thank you Tobias for taking the time to write this! It's highly appreciated and now having this information and explanation I'm completely confident to order from you guys again (and thanks for clearing up the half-information in this thread. Sample libraries, the laws and policies which come with it can be confusing sometimes). Have fun in LA, hope you can also enjoy it a little bit. Hope we all can now move on from this, at least I will (and I have to since there is a deadline for a game coming up I have to meet).

Side note for everyone reading this (and I hope it's okay for OT that I share it): Tobias also sent out another apology-email, and while it didn't contain the same detail of information as in this thread, there was a voucher attached to it as a gesture to apologize for the inconvenience (the worth of the voucher is very generous imho). Guess I'm going to purchase JXLBrass now....KIDDING! I'm kidding!


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## Mike Fox (Jan 17, 2020)

Happy to see how this turned out!


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## node01 (Dec 3, 2021)

Does Orchestral Tools refund on a library that was never downloaded from your Sine player within a two-week period upon purchase?


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