# Give Spitfire a chance? Or not?... Samplecast review now LIVE



## reutunes (Apr 2, 2018)

I've been playing with Hans Zimmer Strings (yes, that again) over the weekend with a view to including a full review in this week's http://thesamplecast.com/ (Samplecast). Quite frankly, it is full of bugs and inconsistencies. So I posed a question on facebook this morning about reviewing buggy libraries straight out of the gate, and the post was met with a wide range of responses. Perhaps the VI Control community would be interested in some of the thoughts? Comments range from...

_"I’d wait. They are a great company and I’d trust them to put out a timely update."_

to...

_"I’d review it now. They could of waited but they released is as it is so it should be reviewed as it is"_



**UPDATE**

This has been an amazing discussion - thank you all for contributing. It's been really interesting to see so many varied viewpoints about the library, reviewing styles and the ethics of reviewing in general... and obviously there's been lots of random chat too. Love VI Control - never change. So I'm just gonna drop this here and run for the hills...


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 2, 2018)

They've released it as a finished product. I say review it as is with the coveat "they will be updating it". One question would be, do you give this same "chance" to other developers? I say do whatever is consistant with what you've done in the past. Just because it's Spitifire doesn't mean they need any kind of special treatment (if you don't regularly wait for updates to review other products that is).


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## axb312 (Apr 2, 2018)

Does Spitfire have a great track record with updates and bug fixes then?

Basically, I would say review as is...You could rehash the updated bits later....


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## Jay Panikkar (Apr 2, 2018)

If you are a genuine reviewer, you should let people know the state of the product at release, especially in the case of expensive boutique sample libraries that can't be resold/refunded. You can provide information regarding updates/fixes later on.

I'm not sure why you'd need to ask this in the first place. Why the special treatment for some developers over others?


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## amorphosynthesis (Apr 2, 2018)

A review as a buggy library,would save us 599 dollars and lots of frustration ? Yes.


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## reutunes (Apr 2, 2018)

Jay Panikkar said:


> If you are a genuine reviewer, you should let people know the state of the product at release, especially in the case of expensive boutique sample libraries that can't be resold/refunded. You can provide information regarding updates/fixes later on.
> 
> I'm not sure why you'd need to ask this in the first place. Why the special treatment for some developers over others?


Spitfire gets no special treatment. Before review, I always try to check with companies (where time permits) when I find bugs to see if they are aware and their timescale for fixing them.

What I am asking here, is essentially if there is any usefulness in publishing a video review that may be out of date in a very short time. Especially as Daniel has done such a good job of showing the flaws in the product already.


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## DS_Joost (Apr 2, 2018)

They release it in this state. This is what they deem good enough for $599. They don't have to release it in this state, but they do. Fault's on them. You can't sell it, either. So yes review it in this state and tell people that they are looking to update it, but that right now it's in the state it is.


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## kimarnesen (Apr 2, 2018)

If you let them wait, you need to wait with every developer and libraries in the future in order to be taken objectively.


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## Lassi Tani (Apr 2, 2018)

Regardless of other reviews, I think it's important for your followers to know about the bugs and the current state of the library. The more we have information about those flaws, the better.

I agree with kimarnesen. If you wait for the bugs to be fixed for this library, you will have to treat other libraries similarly.


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## kimarnesen (Apr 2, 2018)

Also, they did not bill it as an alpha or beta, or a library with bugs to be fixed. So perhaps releasing a product with so many bugs is worth criticizing quite a bit, so it doesn't become a standard among developers.


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## Ihnoc (Apr 2, 2018)

The library is a talking point right now, so alternative viewpoints are going to be useful to those on the fence, especially those who are watching/listening to the podcast but not on these forums - I think that is an audience you should just do the review for now.

Regarding bugs, plenty of your reviews have highlighted them before in fresh releases, whether there was open acknowledgement of them by the developer or not.

Daniel generated an opinion on the library in its current state and it was based more around the tonal pallette than technical issues. I think just review it as a released product as always. I respect yours and Daniel's opinions as always.


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## Jay Panikkar (Apr 2, 2018)

reutunes said:


> Spitfire gets no special treatment. Before review, I always try to check with companies (where time permits) when I find bugs to see if they are aware and their timescale for fixing them.
> 
> What I am asking here, is essentially if there is any usefulness in publishing a video review that may be out of date in a very short time. Especially as Daniel has done such a good job of showing the flaws in the product already.


That makes some sense. @Daniel James primary focus was on the overall design philosophy of the library, I don't think he's addressed bugs/inconsistencies in the library in detail.

Given that HZS is a 'hot topic' right now, I'm sure there'll be some folks in your audience waiting for your review before pulling the trigger. Also a good opportunity to bring more traffic to your channel, imo.


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## zimm83 (Apr 2, 2018)

Of course you must review a library that has bugs.... For example, the legatos in the different reviews are........MAN , such a beautiful sounding library needs great legatos !

The transitions are essential. They are not prominent at all... Why ? This library has THE sound... but for the legato lines ....humm...humm.......Hoping for an update...or maybe one of the mic positions has more prominent legatos....That could be a solution...


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## jamwerks (Apr 2, 2018)

Of course do a normal review of 1.0

Seems like a click-bait thread title though.


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## blougui (Apr 2, 2018)

yeah click bait for sure.
Why not stating you cannot make a complete review since it’s ridden with problems and that your followers have to be aware that at 600€ they might be disappointed with overall usability ? So they might want to wait to have a fully usable one cross all platforms & config but at a higher price?
edit: i mean the title. The reasoning behind it is genuine, the concern legit of course.


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## Grizzlymv (Apr 2, 2018)

As other said, just do as you usually do. It's not a question of being fair or not with Spitfire. It's a question of being fair to your usual way of proceeding when you do a review. If you would wait for others, then you wait here as well. If you don't wait, then don't (which I believe is the case as I remember a few libraries where you were highlighting issues and clearly hoping for an update that would fix them). People value your reviews because of your neutral/unbiased approach. At least, that's why I like your reviews. Cheers.


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## Dr Belasco (Apr 2, 2018)

Reuben you have to review it with the bugs unfortunately because there's no way of knowing how long the bug removal will take. You can then review a second time when it's bug free if necessary. The thing of it is, is no one should expect buyers to be beta testers.


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## Paul Thomson (Apr 2, 2018)

The legato bug is fixed already. I expect the team will roll it out tomorrow/Wednesday - obviously we will want to run some testing to ensure we haven’t missed anything. 

I’m interested to see what’s come in on support over the last few days - aside from the unknown Windows 10 issue - I’m not aware of any other showstoppers - but of course with anything of this complexity, once thousands of people are using it, there will appear some issues that we haven’t been able to find in our own detailed test schedule. 

All the best,

Paul


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 2, 2018)

Dr Belasco said:


> The thing of it is, is no one should expect buyers to be beta testers.




Didn’t Christian say that’s why they do intro prices? Because of the possibility of bugs...


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## Jazzy_Joe (Apr 2, 2018)

I think you should review it, based on the fact that this is the product being sold currently for £600 in whatever condition it is in.


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 2, 2018)

£550


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## reutunes (Apr 2, 2018)

Paul Thomson said:


> The legato bug is fixed already. I expect the team will roll it out tomorrow/Wednesday - obviously we will want to run some testing to ensure we haven’t missed anything.
> 
> I’m interested to see what’s come in on support over the last few days - aside from the unknown Windows 10 issue - I’m not aware of any other showstoppers - but of course with anything of this complexity, once thousands of people are using it, there will appear some issues that we haven’t been able to find in our own detailed test schedule.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info, Paul. I've been chatting with Loren via email who's on holiday and has *still* been answering my emails - poor thing. After raising my concerns with her, she told me that a few different foibles of the library are being worked through right now so I'm waiting to hear back.


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## Dr Belasco (Apr 2, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Didn’t Christian say that’s why they do intro prices? Because of the possibility of bugs...



Of course that's a good point. But if Reuben does a review now, I get the feeling it won't just be about bugs. The interface which I assume is called the The Merlin engine (haw) may come in for some adverse critique. If I was SA, I wouldn't want a review done until it's all fixed.


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 2, 2018)

Paul Thomson said:


> The legato bug is fixed already. I expect the team will roll it out tomorrow/Wednesday - obviously we will want to run some testing to ensure we haven’t missed anything.
> 
> I’m interested to see what’s come in on support over the last few days - aside from the unknown Windows 10 issue - I’m not aware of any other showstoppers - but of course with anything of this complexity, once thousands of people are using it, there will appear some issues that we haven’t been able to find in our own detailed test schedule.
> 
> ...


Whoa, clickbait thread. 
Reuben, I appreciate you want to get something out whilst HZ is a talking point and get those sweet, sweet clicks. I'd give SF a chance to roll out the legato update if it's coming within 48 hours or so, else your review will be out of date pretty quick and won't reflect what the majority of buyers experience.
My 2c.


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## jamwerks (Apr 2, 2018)

The "bugs" could be related to features specific to the library, or features they're ironing out with the brand new sampler. And I would imagine there'll be lots of continual updates as the new sampler improves and grows.


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 2, 2018)

I find it really strange that something so important as the legato function was somehow missed in beta testing.
But all's well that ends well, right? If it's fixed, great! 



Dr Belasco said:


> Of course that's a good point. But if Reuben does a review now, I get the feeling it won't just be about bugs. The interface which I assume is called the The Merlin engine (haw) may come in for some adverse critique. If I was SA, I wouldn't want a review done until it's all fixed.



Developers don't only do intro pricing because of possible bugs. They do it to promote sales. Sales significantly drop off after sales or intro prices are done --even if every single bug has been fixed.
So it's a bit of a poor practice in my opinion to say "hey look at this intro price...the product may be flawed...but you can expect us to update it at some point." Like others have said, you are not owning this product, yet you can never resell it. So the standards should be high.
You should be putting your best foot forward. Are some bugs going to show up? Yes, of course...but the legato. It demonstrates a lack of care from a very large company who should pride itself in these things and has gained my respect for some time (but I guess who cares who gained my respect, right?) 
Don't worry about deadlines...to a point. Slow down a bit. You guys are doing great things!


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## reutunes (Apr 2, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> Whoa, clickbait thread.
> Reuben, I appreciate you want to get something out whilst HZ is a talking point and get those sweet, sweet clicks. I'd give SF a chance to roll out the legato update if it's coming within 48 hours or so, else your review will be out of date pretty quick and won't reflect what the majority of buyers experience.
> My 2c.


You know what... those "sweet sweet clicks" are always nice but over and above this I do pride myself on being fair in my reviews, both to consumers and developers. I would hope that my record speaks for that. So I'm less concerned about getting views than giving solid advice that doesn't immediately become redundant. The pace of sample library development and updates these days makes my "job" very difficult but that's a discussion for another day.


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 2, 2018)

reutunes said:


> You know what... those "sweet sweet clicks" are always nice but over and above this I do pride myself on being fair in my reviews, both to consumers and developers. I would hope that my record speaks for that. So I'm less concerned about getting views than giving solid advice that doesn't immediately become redundant. The pace of sample library development and updates these days makes my "job" very difficult but that's a discussion for another day.


Then create two videos! Double the clicks. Once for now, and an "update" review. The library has a high enough profile to carry it. Also, not meaning to be flippant - I don't doubt your integrity at all.


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## vms (Apr 2, 2018)

I would say wait for the update, but give us a text list about all known bugs.


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## Vik (Apr 2, 2018)

I have bought libraries where I had to wait *years* for fixes, so if HZS fixes are being worked on right now and will be available within days, I certainly would have waited with publishing a review.


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## mouse (Apr 2, 2018)

What's a reasonable amount of time for bug fixes? Give them that long then do the review and state that they had x amount of time to fix the bugs stated and this is the current state


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## DavidY (Apr 2, 2018)

I think I'm right in saying the current offer price on HZ strings ends on 11 April?
So some people will be looking to make a decision to buy before then, so to help them, I think that means including it this week if you want it to reach folks before then?
Even with the bugs, if your review also covers the sounds it makes (I'm sure there's a more technical way of putting that ) , I'd suggest it would be useful to people, as one would hope the bugs will be fixed but the underlying sounds will remain.


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## MrHStudio (Apr 2, 2018)

I would expect a review to point out the good and the bad. any fixes you are aware of that are coming you can mention as part of the review.


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## catsass (Apr 2, 2018)

In light of your communications with Spitfire concerning the bugs and inconsistencies, what are _their_ thoughts on the timeliness of your review?
I say strike while the iron is hot. Lay out the current good and the bad. We count on you for that, man!


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## Mike Fox (Apr 2, 2018)

I would review the library the way it currently stands. No reason to do it otherwise. It is what it is.


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## Pontus Rufelt (Apr 2, 2018)

I love the library itself, but I have to say that the state of the plugin is pretty bad. I’ve run huge templates of Spitfire Kontakt libraries without issues, but HZS has my ASIO spiking with two to three instances running the normal long articulation with 3-4 mics, alternating between chords.

They really need to expand their testing before release if they are to continue using their own proprietary plugins. This is proving to be a very frustrating experience since I absolutely adore the library itself. In fact this might very well be the highest quality recordings I’ve heard in a sample library. But alas, I can’t really use it....

You should definitely do the review video, and highlight potential issues you encounter. It’s after all not released labeled as a beta, but as a full release.


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## KEM (Apr 2, 2018)

Spitfire does make great products, and a few bugs at launch shouldn't dictate how the product is received, plugins are like video games, no matter how much they beta test them the mass public will always be able to find problems when it's fully released, now if a company decides to fix that is another story... but I think Spitfire does care and will fix the problems, as this is a new flagship product and they want to keep up their good reputation.


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## SoundChris (Apr 2, 2018)

If a developer advertises and releases such an expensive product its ok to review it as it is NOW. They are selling it as it is now so it is just fair to review what they are selling. That is how it is done imo.


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## NoamL (Apr 2, 2018)

I'm surprised that you email developers. Don't you understand that they may give you special treatment because they know you are a sample library reviewer?

EDIT: I'm not saying that you expect that treatment, to be fair, but that it's something to steer clear of?


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## reutunes (Apr 2, 2018)

NoamL said:


> I'm surprised that you email developers. Don't you understand that they may give you special treatment because they know you are a sample library reviewer?
> 
> EDIT: I'm not saying that you expect that treatment, to be fair, but that it's something to steer clear of?



Communication can never be a bad thing, can it? If it results in better product then everyone wins.


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## Quasar (Apr 2, 2018)

As has been said over and over again here, the obvious answer is to review the library as it currently is. Betas are different, but if it's being _sold_ as a finished product at a particular stage of development, then the only honest response is to judge it at that exact developmental stage.

I know I wouldn't want to spend hundreds of dollars on a library that hinged on a promise to fix bugs in a future update, unless of course this largess was reciprocated by the developer and I was told I could have the library for free now, and pay the $$$ only if and when the flaws were fixed to my satisfaction.


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## AoiichiNiiSan (Apr 2, 2018)

Review as is. The public are getting it as is and are paying for a product that's considered suitable to release.

If there's "fixes and updates" being developed? Do an update later.


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## Paul Thomson (Apr 2, 2018)

Review as is of course. As far as I can see from support there is the legato glitch bug that crept into release when we were refining at the last minute (now fixed) and an issue that appears to affect some win 10 users - as yet undiagnosed. 

I think there’s actually a little bit more of interest to discuss in this project?

Anyway - over to you - of course the press must be free to write what they wish - as must everyone - my only motivation to post here was simply to let you know we fixed that issue so you have all the info. 

All the best!

Paul


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

Hey Reuben I wanted to continue the conversation here rather than facebook.

So keeping in mind you received a free NFR copy from Spitfire you are in a tricky position. Maintain the relationship or be an honest reviewer.

One of the reasons I don't get Spitfire NFR's anymore I imagine is they really didn't like when I said what I really thought about the libraries (I imagine it will be claimed its because they don't like the way they do them, which doesn't resonate with me personally when my audience seems to approve of my approach). I think I even emailed them before release when it was revealed that they had a new player asking if they wanted to do a collaboration video where they can prove me wrong live on camera, Show how awesome the engine is and how wrong I am...everyone would want to watch that hah... in which case everyone wins. They get to show an awesome engine, I get to have my points proven wrong live.....they just ignored me, as they tend to do now XD

When I had an issue understanding a GUI layout or there was a bug, I commented on it. When it under delivered I commented on it. Then Spitfire stopped sending me NFR's which is their prerogative and _totally_ I get it. But I always reach out to companies asking if they want to provide an NFR when a library is released because I know people are interested to hear my opinion which I strive to keep as honest as possible. (I have had people say I am biased because I got a library for free even when I was giving it a pretty damming honest review before lol). Some however have more of an issue with honesty than others. But I have had developers praise me for being honest about the issues, then have commented in posts I made about them, then fixed them and its just good will all around. They understand that an honest review doesn't mean I hate them, it means I hold them fully accountable for what they release....which should _ALWAYS_ be the point of a reviewer.

You just have to decide what you as a reviewer value more. If you wait for fixes you are helping the company if you review it how it was released to you then you are helping the consumer with their expectation. You can wait of course but I have always found that putting out a review of v1.0 makes the developer accountable for the state in which they released it. This one clearly has bugs....and obvious ones, I know Paul is saying that sometimes you miss bugs but lets be honest the legato was so obviously broken within the first few notes played (watch my vid for proof) there is no way a beta team missed that. BUT that is the state in which they decided it was ready for people to pay for. As a reviewer you should make them accountable for that decision, the dream being, going forward, more attention is paid to stability and quality control....I imagine their next libraries legato will be checked and double checked after the backlash which was brought to light by people reviewing what was released (and not just by me).

And making a post saying 'shouldn't we give them chance', the implication of which being others are not, when you have received the product for free (NFR) is a very grey area of marketing. To be unbiased as possible you should just make the video and respond to what you see. By asking this question should we give them a chance I can't help but feel you have a certain opinion on how the review will be but are conflicted because you don't want to damage the relationship or bite the hand that feeds so to speak. So you make a post like this one where you offload the responsibility of having to give a bad review for the community to decide so that if you have to make one, you can subtly say to Spitfire "sorry they wanted this". Its all politics at the end of the day. But the title does feel like it implies those who reviewed before an update are not given them a chance.

So should you give them a chance. It depends, what do you value more? the value of your word or the relationship to free libraries? I made my choice a long time ago and as a result I pay for more libraries now than I get NFR's for, but I feel my word is more valuable because of it.

If however this thread wasn't _actually_ to ask what you should do then just do whatever man. I will watch your show and enjoy it regardless 

-DJ


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## benmrx (Apr 2, 2018)

Agree. Review it as is. Then do an update if/when necessary.

EDIT:
Oh..., OK, after reading Daniels post, and seeing this is a review of an NFR copy..., then (just my opinion here), you lose some real credibility if you don't review it as is. Especially now that you've created this thread.

If you decide to wait for a new updated NFR copy to review..., it just smells a bit foul.

I think one of the reasons people tend to gravitate to DJ reviews/first looks/etc. is that over the years he's made it pretty clear that he's less concerned with keeping the developers happy with his reviews, and puts more emphasis on his true opinions.

Like..., it's hard to see a guy wearing a pepsi shirt, claim how great pepsi is.

THIS..., All Day:


Daniel James said:


> So should you give them a chance. It depends, what do you value more? the value of your word or the relationship to free libraries? I made my choice a long time ago and as a result I pay for more libraries now than I get NFR's for, but I feel my word is more valuable because of it.


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

Saw Paul post that at the same time I did. Good on him for saying review it as it.

-DJ


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## reutunes (Apr 2, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> So should you give them a chance. It depends, what do you value more? the value of your word or the relationship to free libraries? I made my choice a long time ago and as a result I pay for more libraries now than I get NFR's for, but I feel my word is more valuable because of it.
> 
> If however this thread wasn't _actually_ to ask what you should do then just do whatever man. I will watch your show and enjoy it regardless
> 
> -DJ



The "free libraries" thing isn't even a consideration - I've been in the business of reviewing products so long now (starting in print media) that I delete way more than I keep. Sorry if that sounds disingenuous to developers, but I only have so much space on my hard drives.

I think that some people are reading more into this post than I intended (surprise!). The original genesis of my question came into my mind because I wondered if people would rather see a review of Hans Zimmer Strings V1.0 complete with all the bugs, and that the review may be redundant in a few days? Or maybe they'd prefer to hear my thoughts on a properly working version of the library? I really have no problem reviewing initial release versions of libraries and then updating them with a subsequent update item in the show (see Berlin Brass as an example).

It has been truly fascinating to hear so many different viewpoints on the subject of beta-testing, bug fixes, pre-release pricing and reviewing ethics... so thank you everyone.


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## Paul Thomson (Apr 2, 2018)

The above (from DJ) is total nonsense.

But I’m not engaging with it as it’s pointless getting drawn into an argument with someone who desperately wants to have a row.

Reuben please do your review the way *you* want to do it - safe in the knowledge - good or bad - you’ll continue to get our support and appreciation for your work. We love your reviews!!

All the best.

Paul


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

Paul Thomson said:


> The above (from DJ) is total nonsense.
> 
> But I’m not engaging with it as it’s pointless getting drawn into an argument with someone who desperately wants to have a row.
> 
> ...



No its not nonsense Paul. Bias in reviews exist, thats why you have to disclose nowadays when you review something if it was compensated or not. We have whole laws dedicated to that specific thing!

So its within the realm of possibility that a thread by the reviewer asking if the he should go easy on a company he received something for free from (or to give them a chance to clear up bugs first in this case which exist in a retail product that they chose to release), could imply he has doubts about the consequences of speaking openly and honestly about bad points or disappointments.

When you guys refused my request for an NFR for Hans Zimmer percussion... just off the back of a middling review for Albion 2 (I think it was) which you let me know you were not super happy with. I posted publicly that I would still be doing an honest review of HZ Percussion to which you publicly said something to the effect of "I wonder how honest it will be given we refused to give you a copy for free" ...so you yourself must believe that there is bias in a compensated review otherwise that statement wouldn't have existed. And like all the Albions I reviewed before that I gave an honest review, with examples of any issue I had, shown while I was explaining them. It was honest. Then came the reviews from other people saying how wrong I was....oh and they had recieved NFRs (The specific example is when I said it didn't do a particularly big sound, then the next day there were other reviewers saying "Yes it _can_ do a big sound...then they proceeded to really force a big sound out of it, Something which was fixed with JXL mixes later down the road which I mention on live stream all the time...sort of how Christian posted that HZS could do fast strings after I said it couldn't except with HZP it was other reviewers.). I get how it works mate, I just value my word over free stuff.

Having these discussions is not about having a 'row' either. Grow some thicker skin and jump into some actual discussion. I get you have a whole company of people probably backing up your conclusion that I am a troll of some description, but if my points are just wrong, tell me why, give examples why, and lets come to some common ground. Just dismissing someone with legitimate issues as a troll just makes it look like you have no argument or are just sulking.

I genuinely would like to have some more public discourse with you about some of these things, I think you are a great guy and you do great work. Just because I take issue with something you create doesn't change my opinion of you as a person or that I hate anyone at Spitfire....but for some reason you always seem so outwardly hostile to me.

Cheer up mate its just samples, its not life or death!

-DJ


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## benmrx (Apr 2, 2018)

reutunes said:


> The "free libraries" thing isn't even a consideration - I've been in the business of reviewing products so long now (starting in print media) that I delete way more than I keep. Sorry if that sounds disingenuous to developers, but I only have so much space on my hard drives.



But as professional composers, hobbyists, what ever...., all we know is that you get a library for free..., and then do the review. We don't know if you keep it, use it, trash it, etc. So..., while the 'free libraries' may not be a consideration to you.., it most definitely IS (at least) to me. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the library being sold. According to Paul, the Legato bug is already fixed, but that doesn't tell us when the general public gets it. If that update comes out next week.., then great. But what if they decide to tweak other aspects of the library, and it takes a month or two to get the update rolled out. There's no way to know.


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## Dr Belasco (Apr 2, 2018)

Whoa this thread has just taken a 90 degree turn round the U bend.


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## merlinhimself (Apr 2, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> No its not nonsense Paul. Bias in reviews exist, thats why you have to disclose nowadays when you review something if it was compensated or not.
> 
> So its within the realm of possibility that a thread by the reviewer asking if the he should go easy on a company he received something for free from (or to give them a chance to clear up bugs first in this case which exist in a retail product that they chose to release), could imply he has doubts about the consequences of speaking openly and honestly about bad points or disappointments.
> 
> ...



I think Spitfire delivers some great stuff, and some I'm not completely sold on, but I absolutely agree with your view. What some like others dont, etc. Its all opinion and for people to exclaim another person's opinion or review is wrong and unjustified is crazy.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Apr 2, 2018)

Nonsense? DJ gave more than a fair review for such an incomplete buggy release which he also paid for btw. I dont comprehend such posts..and then people complaining about mike pattis tweet?


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## reutunes (Apr 2, 2018)

benmrx said:


> But as professional composers, hobbyists, what ever...., all we know is that you get a library for free..., and then do the review. We don't know if you keep it, use it, trash it, etc. So..., while the 'free libraries' may not be a consideration to you.., it most definitely IS (at least) to me. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the library being sold. According to Paul, the Legato bug is already fixed, but that doesn't tell us when the general public gets it. If that update comes out next week.., then great. But what if they decide to tweak other aspects of the library, and it takes a month or two to get the update rolled out. There's no way to know.



...and there you have entirely summarised my question at the top of this thread... What's more useful to Samplecast viewers - a review of a library on day one (with bugs), or a review of a more stable future update?

Also - I know what it's like to pay for stuff. My reviews always consider the price of the library and the value (as far it applies to my workflow). I'd like to give some examples of various reviews but this post would just turn into a long list which I'm sure nobody has the time for


----------



## Dr Belasco (Apr 2, 2018)

Holy Sheeeaaat! Wtf has paying or not paying for a sample library got to do with anything. This thread has already started to disintergrate into a morass.


----------



## Paul Thomson (Apr 2, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Nonsense? DJ gave more than a fair review for such an incomplete buggy release which he also paid for btw. I dont comprehend such posts..and then people complaining about mike pattis tweet?



No I’m specifically referring to his reasoning above. Please don’t put words in my mouth!

All I ask of reviewers is that they put some effort into the review - rather than just dashing out a fumble around under the guise of a review. 

Think about literary reviews. You at least have to read the whole book and come up with a coherent position. 

Anyhoo I can see that I’m probably wasting my time trying to explain myself. 

Many reviews are extremely valuable and have clearly had a fair amount of time and effort put in to them. 

All the best!

Paul


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 2, 2018)

I sense the post count on this thread is about to go up..


Daniel James said:


> Cheer up mate its just samples, its not life or death!
> -DJ


Hey DJ - Whilst I enjoyed your ranty review, I feel I've gotta mention..
Your views can be as critical as you wish - that's your call entirely. Ultimately though (assuming you don't torpedo your career!) there won't be any hard, real world consequences for you from a bad review.

On the other hand, Paul runs a company of 40 odd people and he's gotta look out for those folk. And your review *might* have cost SF a chunk of change. Cold hard money. So I'm not surprised if he's grumpy. Just a thought.

As always, written with respect.
A


----------



## Garry (Apr 2, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> No its not nonsense Paul. Bias in reviews exist, thats why you have to disclose nowadays when you review something if it was compensated or not.



Totally agree. I value your review Daniel, partly _because _I know it cost you to buy the product. I don't think the disappointment would have been the same, or the strength of feeling the same, if you yourself didn't have skin in the game. This is precisely where the customer's perspective is too. We want to know, 'so, did you think it was worth the money?' And if the money paid was zero, the valuation is less credible, because a wasted purchase doesn't impact you the same as if you're now $800 bucks down. 

But this is related to the other thread: if you could have had the chance to do the review during a trial demo period, then everyone benefits: you get to the do the review risk-free; you can decide to buy it afterwards or not, based on whether it met your expectations before purchase, not after; everyone else also gets to review it themselves, helped by your insights; Reuben's position is not compromised by having a NFR copy, because his relative risk is now the same as everyone else's; Spitfire doesn't have to deal with the fallout of a high-profile reviewer's negative review who is disgruntled by his $800 purchase not being of the value he expected; the buzz created by so many more people having a copy would both increase the activity around the product, and provide a larger beta-testing community. 

This solution would solve all the problems - we as a community need to push developers to do it. Large (Steinberg with Cubase), and small (eg AmpleSound) developers in this space make it work. There is no reason why the others can't too, to everyone's benefit.


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

reutunes said:


> ...and there you have entirely summarised my question at the top of this thread... What's more useful to Samplecast viewers - a review of a library on day one (with bugs), or a review of a more stable future update?
> 
> Also - I know what it's like to pay for stuff. My reviews always consider the price of the library and the value (as far it applies to my workflow). I'd like to give some examples of various reviews but this post would just turn into a long list which I'm sure nobody has the time for



Haha I feel your pain there mate, but trust me it hurts more to be disappointed with a library when you sink $600 into it rather than $0. Something the trade commissions know, thats why we have to disclose it in videos these days.

Thats why I never edit away on my videos because it strips the ability to hold any real bias, because if its broken its very obvious if I was to try to cover it up xD

The very fact you are musing on if to wait till the storm passes before reviewing the product when its compensated will lead to people thinking its due to the bias of a compensated product. Regardless of if it is or not. Thats why I say what do you value more, your word or your relationships. Because reviewing what you are given and being as totally honest as you can is the only way to dispel bias claims. To sit on it, and particularly to publicly ask if you should give the company in question 'a chance' is just muddying the waters of how bias the review will be. But now we are talking more beyond Spitfire specifically. And I am sure you already have your own standpoint. I am just voicing where I stand on it 

-DJ


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## Paul Owen (Apr 2, 2018)

Shots fired!


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

Garry said:


> I don't think the disappointment would have been the same, or the strength of feeling the same,



Very possible indeed! but there would have been no denying my disappointment with regard to expectation vs reality of what hte product actually was. Nor would I have been any easier on the bugs (as you can see in my previous vids) but your point is very true, and its the point I am discussing right now 

-DJ


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## NoamL (Apr 2, 2018)

Daniel do you get NFR copies often? Didn’t know that.


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## Garry (Apr 2, 2018)

Paul Thomson said:


> No I’m specifically referring to his reasoning above. Please don’t put words in my mouth!
> 
> All I ask of reviewers is that they put some effort into the review - rather than just dashing out a fumble around under the guise of a review.
> 
> ...



To be fair to Daniel, he usually writes a whole piece based on the library - I think this constitutes a fair review. 

Presumably the reason he didn't for HZS was that he didn't have time to do so because we saw that he got the library at the same time as everyone else, and there was a LOT of interest in his initial opinions on it.


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## Garry (Apr 2, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Very possible indeed! but there would have been no denying my disappointment with regard to expectation vs reality of what hte product actually was. Nor would I have been any easier on the bugs (as you can see in my previous vids) but your point is very true, and its the point I am discussing right now
> 
> -DJ


I don't doubt it - I still think you would have given it an honest review, as you did. But from the company's perspective, it is a better management of negative reviews, when the reviewers themselves don't have to suffer for being an early adopter, by paying the cost of the library themselves. I'm just saying it makes sense from their perspective, not to set such high bars: you just paid $800 for this - it damn well better be good!


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## Paul Thomson (Apr 2, 2018)

No other reviewers spent a few weeks loudly and publicly claiming that it was a huge fail to try and produce our own plugin rather than release in Kontakt, while privately emailing us to suggest we make a video for the release with them showing them that the plugin actually worked, “to put the discussion to bed once and for all”.


----------



## benmrx (Apr 2, 2018)

reutunes said:


> ...and there you have entirely summarised my question at the top of this thread... What's more useful to Samplecast viewers - a review of a library on day one (with bugs), or a review of a more stable future update?
> 
> Also - I know what it's like to pay for stuff. My reviews always consider the price of the library and the value (as far it applies to my workflow). I'd like to give some examples of various reviews but this post would just turn into a long list which I'm sure nobody has the time for



I would absolutely hope that what's more important to your viewers is an unbiased opinion on the library at hand, being sold, as is. So..., in this case.., bugs and all. I would absolutely hope you take that approach with EVERY review you do.



Dr Belasco said:


> Holy Sheeeaaat! Wtf has paying or not paying for a sample library got to do with anything. This thread has already started to disintergrate into a morass.



Hey, maybe I'm alone on this...., but if a guy wearing a Pepsi shirt is getting free pepsi, and is claiming Pepsi is the greatest there's very little there to get me to believe he's being earnest about his opinion.


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 2, 2018)

Oh no.
I had a productive evening planned out finishing some mixes. Now I'm just going to be refreshing this page incessantly. Cheers guys.. :-/


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## babylonwaves (Apr 2, 2018)

Garry said:


> To be fair to Daniel, he usually writes a whole piece based on the library - I think this constitutes a fair review.


no, that doesn't make it a review. where I come from, a serious review always includes research and at least reading the manual. if you read a review in Sound On Sound or any other serious publication, a lot of time has been put into it. this includes a dialog with the manufacturer of the product, not necessarily to sweeten up the review but to get the facts right. the dialog is necessary to get things right. it's a fact check. what daniel did is not a review, it is a first look at something new. like a blog of his unfiltered thoughts when he checks it out the first time.


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## aelwyn (Apr 2, 2018)

reutunes said:


> What's more useful to Samplecast viewers - a review of a library on day one (with bugs), or a review of a more stable future update?



Seems like a no-brainer: Review the library _as it is at the time you publish the review_. The purpose of a review is, in large part, to help consumers make informed decisions before making a purchase. If the library is buggy _*right now*_, then that _should _have an impact on someone's decision whether or not to buy *right now*. If they release an update that cures all, then publish an update or addendum to the review.

Publishing a review of some idealized version of the product that is not currently available to the buying public undermines the entire purpose of the review. The ball is in Spitfire's court to fix any issues with the product. Further, I don't think it's a bad idea to have it on public record when a new release has significant issues, even if they _are_ quickly addressed — as a consumer, I'd be interested in knowing if a company has a tendency to rush products out the door rather than wait until they're ready for prime time. That could also serve as an incentive to the company to be more careful in the future (i.e. "We're paying attention... please don't assume all of us are completely sold by flashy marketing").

I would emphasize, though, that if the issues (if there are any) are resolved, that an update/addendum be published. But let the original stand, too, for posterity.

Speaking of which... having never bought a Spitfire library when it was "new" (indeed, I just picked up Spitfire Symphony Orchestra and Chamber Strings last November, after they'd already been out for some time), I was wondering if their libraries are historically buggy at release? I've thoroughly enjoyed the Spitfire libraries I _do _have and, aside from some issues with the installation of Spitfire Symphonic Brass, haven't had any problems in use... so I take that to mean any issues do eventually get ironed out, which is encouraging at least.


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

Paul Thomson said:


> No other reviewers spent a few weeks loudly and publicly claiming that it was a huge fail to try and produce our own plugin rather than release in Kontakt, while privately emailing us to suggest we make a video for the release with them showing them that the plugin actually worked, “to put the discussion to bed once and for all”.



Exactly that was my point! I was probably your most vocal critic of changing to a new engine. Everyone knew that. So (as I mentioned above) I reached out to you guys for the potential of a collaboration video where you guys show me the engine and how its actually better and more solid than I was making out. It allows you guys to address my concerns and publicly prove me wrong. Something I am sure everyone would have loved to see....those interested in the library would have been put at ease at how good the engine actually was and those who dislike me would have seen me proved wrong on video.....but even though you CLEARLY got the email, you just ignored it Paul....so don't try to use it as some sort of example of me being two faced or disingenuous, I already posted that I did that and the reason why above.

If I am critical of something I am not afraid to be proven wrong, and IF I am wrong I am happy for the company I am critical against to benefit from it. So while you brought up that example, seemingly as a way to discredit what I am saying...all I see is that you didn't quite understand how I was actually offering you the opportunity to get a win out of my criticism. But you ignored it. And instead tried to use it as a snide jab. Thats what I was talking about with the hostility towards me. Which is sort of sad on your part as the engine was actually better than I expected, you had a good opportunity to save some face on that one. But naaaa fuck Daniel James.

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Daniel do you get NFR copies often? Didn’t know that.



Sometimes yeah. I will say it at the start of the video though and as I said I don't edit away AND I do them live now, so you can hold me accountable if I say something which doesn't match with reality 

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

babylonwaves said:


> no, that doesn't make it a review. where I came from a serious review always includes research and at least reading the manual. if you read a review in Sound On Sound or any other serious publication, a lot of time has been put into it. this includes a dialog with the manufacturer of the product, not necessarily to sweeten up the review but to get the facts right. the dialog is necessary to get things right. it's a fact check. what daniel did is not a review, it is a first look at something new. like a blog of his unfiltered thoughts when he checks it out the first time.



I agree, I do more overviews, first looks, writing a cue with library x. I don't do conventional reviews I would say. I tend to do what most customers will do when they get the library....which seems to be more useful to some people. As people tend not to actually want to read manuals but instead crack it open and see how good it is. Thats what I do.

-DJ


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## kimarnesen (Apr 2, 2018)

I hope I never feel I have to prove to a reviewer he's wrong.


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## Paul Thomson (Apr 2, 2018)

?

It’s not all about you Daniel. 

It’s about 344 amazing players, an inspirational and trailblazing composer, and a hard working team bringing composers a new and creative tool to use in their work.


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## D Halgren (Apr 2, 2018)

What do free products matter anyway? I assume DJ has a business structure in place and these purchases are a write-off. If not, that is ridiculously naive of him. If so, the fact that he paid for it is a mute point. Unless he just loves giving the American government money


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## Garry (Apr 2, 2018)

babylonwaves said:


> no, that doesn't make it a review. where I come from, a serious review always includes research and at least reading the manual. if you read a review in Sound On Sound or any other serious publication, a lot of time has been put into it. this includes a dialog with the manufacturer of the product, not necessarily to sweeten up the review but to get the facts right. the dialog is necessary to get things right. it's a fact check. what daniel did is not a review, it is a first look at something new. like a blog of his unfiltered thoughts when he checks it out the first time.


I think you misunderstand - I said what he *usually *does (ie produce a piece using the library under review - I assume he reads the manual for this, or perhaps for someone of his experience, doesn't need to do so cover to cover), and then I went on to explain my assumptions about why he didn't do this here. He clearly wasn't paid by Spitfire to review their product, and so in this instance was under no obligation to them of what it should comprise; his initial impressions were of interest and value to a large group of people. You can say this wasn't a 'review', and I'm not going to quibble over semantics, but it was a 5 and a half hour video, in which he explored the product in a similar way to many customers will initially do. This was useful information, if not to you, it was to me and others.


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## jamwerks (Apr 2, 2018)

@Daniel James, why would you want to enter into a public critical discussion with SF over their sampler? Are you wanting to prove them wrong for the switch? Do you understand they have literally millions of dollars riding on this ? Don't you understand we're all on the same team, with common interests?


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## aelwyn (Apr 2, 2018)

jamwerks said:


> @Daniel James, why would you want to enter into a public critical discussion with SF over their sampler?



Really? Near as I can tell, Daniel James engaged in a discussion with other users here — which is precisely what this forum is for. _Spitfire _(or representatives thereof) seem to be the ones who've publicly engaged with him. Which, to be honest, isn't a good look.


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## Garry (Apr 2, 2018)

jamwerks said:


> @Daniel James, why would you want to enter into a public critical discussion with SF over their sampler? Are you wanting to prove them wrong for the switch? Do you understand they have literally millions of dollars riding on this ? Don't you understand we're all on the same team, with common interests?


I just don't understand such thinking. If you think the discussion is just over switching sampler, you have a number of threads you should read to update yourself. If you think a fellow customer, who spent money on a product, should shut up about his grievances on a public discussion forum, then you as a customer are voting against your own interests. If you think a relatively young guy, early in his career, being honest about his criticisms, without hiding behind internet anonymity isn't showing integrity and bravery, I can only suggest you look those words up. 

I love Spitfire, but engaging in public assaults on a reviewer with negative (as well as positive) comments is a strategic misfire, and I hope Paul takes this discussion privately, for Spitfire's sake.


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## Paul Thomson (Apr 2, 2018)

Assaults????

I’m simply defending myself and the work of my team. 

In fact I’ve said to Reuben that he should go ahead and that whether a review is good or bad has zero effect on whether we provide NFRs for review - contrary to what I’ve been accused of. Publicly.


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

Paul Thomson said:


> ?
> 
> It’s not all about you Daniel.
> 
> It’s about 344 amazing players, an inspirational and trailblazing composer, and a hard working team bringing composers a new and creative tool to use in their work.



Hang on a sec there mate, your last post was clearly a little snide jab that I was emailing you about ways to show your engine is actually good while at the same time being a public critic of it. Like I said I was happy to be wrong and for you to be able to prove me so on video much to the delight of SF fans and People who don't like me. It would have been win win, I would have had my concerns put to bed and you would publically be able to prove the most vocal critic wrong.

You can't have a dig then when I defend myself say it's not all about me. I never said it was either. I'm using my previous examples of doing review to contribute to the topic... in this case the ethics of a compensated reviewer asking publically if he should give the company that gave him a free copy a chance. Hats what this thread is about. If you want to talk about your 344 players, use one every of the other various threads on that specific topic where you input is 110% welcome. And again, and I'm not saying this to be a dick, calm a little with the hostility, it won't help the discussion. Lets talk about the issue and see if we can find common ground! Like I said, I still really like you as a person and what you guys do as a company for the most part!

-DJ


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## Garry (Apr 2, 2018)

Paul Thomson said:


> Assaults????
> 
> I’m simply defending myself and the work of my team.
> 
> In fact I’ve said to Reuben that he should go ahead and that whether a review is good or bad has zero effect on whether we provide NFRs for review - contrary to what I’ve been accused of. Publicly.



Paul, you can object to the specific wording if you choose to, but I think that would be to miss the point. Publicly denigrating the position of someone who reviews your library, some of which is not to your liking, is an own goal, and a mistake that I, as a supporter and previous/future customer of Spitfire, wish you would not make. I understand your passion to defend yourself and your team, and no one here knows the effort that has been put into this library as you do, but some unbiased, uninvolved feedback: _this _is not the way to do it.


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

Paul Thomson said:


> Assaults????
> 
> I’m simply defending myself and the work of my team.
> 
> In fact I’ve said to Reuben that he should go ahead and that whether a review is good or bad has zero effect on whether we provide NFRs for review - contrary to what I’ve been accused of. Publicly.



I don't think anyone accused you personally of anything. Other than ignoring my email I guess which you clearly did as you quoted it. The rest of the discussion is about reviewers and the ethics of when is appropriate to a review a product, adding in the condition of a compensated product. No one is attacking anyone... well other than you trying to make out I'm trying to be sneaky or something.

-DJ


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## Jazzy_Joe (Apr 2, 2018)

I really want to see Reuben's original review now...


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## jamwerks (Apr 2, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Exactly that was my point! I was probably your most vocal critic of changing to a new engine. Everyone knew that. So (as I mentioned above) I reached out to you guys for the potential of a collaboration video where you guys show me the engine and how its actually better and more solid than I was making out. It allows you guys to address my concerns and publicly prove me wrong.


Your concerns? Prove you wrong? That begs the question who you think you are ?


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## Jay Panikkar (Apr 2, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Maintain the relationship or be an honest reviewer.
> 
> One of the reasons I don't get Spitfire NFR's anymore I imagine is they really didn't like when I said what I really thought about the libraries (I imagine it will be claimed its because they don't like the way they do them, which doesn't resonate with me personally when my audience seems to approve of my approach). I think I even emailed them before release when it was revealed that they had a new player asking if they wanted to do a collaboration video where they can prove me wrong live on camera, Show how awesome the engine is and how wrong I am...everyone would want to watch that hah... in which case everyone wins. -DJ


It's all about setting up an echo chamber.

Developers prefer to send review copies to those they already know will review their products favourably. They will have a white-list that consists of ignorant, gullible or fraudulent reviewers for this purpose. Naive hobbyists and busy professionals are tricked into thinking that the product in question is well-received and of better quality than it actually is. With clever and fancy marketing on top of all this, one could sell dog sh*t to a cat.

To make the manipulation less obvious, they'll send out review copies to random reviewers who they know don't have an audience sizeable enough or dedicated enough to shatter their echo chamber.

That said, sleazy developers and reviewers are only half the problem. The other half are the idiotic and gullible fanboys who are easily manipulated because their IQ is below room temperature.

I'm not pointing fingers at Spitfire specifically here. This kind of bullsh*ttery is standard in the software and hardware business (the tech press is the ultimate in bullsh*ttery). That said, fanboys—a.k.a "whales"—are the ideal fodder in any business. That said, I would not be opposed to Spitfire (or any other company) taking advantage of their whales because stupid people deserve to be exploited.


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## jamwerks (Apr 2, 2018)

Garry said:


> If you think a fellow customer, who spent money on a product, should shut up about his grievances on a public discussion forum, then you as a customer are voting against your own interests.


Fake news! Where did I say or even insinuate that?


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## The Darris (Apr 2, 2018)

@Daniel James , I think you are failing to see how this looks to people outside of your view of yourself in this situation. You admitted to emailing Spitfire about doing a live video to prove their engine is good, after weeks of being very critical of it and how it will fail without any real information at hand. You've already formed a biased opinion of it regardless what you may think. On top of that, you implied whether knowingly or not that Spitfire chose not to send you an NFR because of whatever reasons you believe to be true. Again, this forms bias against them.

Now, you spent $600 on a library and immediately do a 5 hour overview fumbling around and are very critical of it. Sure, bugs are worth being critical of but from the few minutes I watched before i turned it off, you were clearly missing the concept or point of certain articulations (I've laid my thoughts out on that in your thread on here without response from you by the way). Now, I'm not saying you cannot express your opinion about those articulations but it didn't come off that way. You made it their fault versus your own personal taste.

Paul and Company have been very vocal about how you just plug and play and give zero regard to "purpose" of a library simply because it doesn't do what you want it to. This has been the case with other products you've reviewed as well. Strezov Sampling's Freyja is a prime example of you not knowing or understanding how something works and instead of trying to learn, you criticize it for being either too complex or not easy to use out of the box. You are basically saying it's the developer's fault that you don't get it. Again, expectations you've applied without thought to the true purpose and function of the library. Again, this is the same situation with HZ Strings re; articulations that are soft. You just pawned it off as "too quiet" and pointless because of whatever internal views you had this library should be despite Spitfire's marketing being very clear weeks prior, even in their live announcement and demos. I mean, come on, don't be upset because they don't give you NFR's anymore, you clearly have the DJ filter that decides what the library should be or sound like before you get it and if it doesn't meet those expectations, you harshly criticize it to a point that can be viewed as biased or unfair.

@reutunes : I say do the review as is but make sure the issues you have are detailed and sent to Spitfire's support. That's been my approach for awhile now after an unfavorable review I did of a library was met with criticism from both devs and viewers. Transparency is the key. You are telling your audience what the product is like and the devs are learning about what's wrong with it so they can fix it. Whether or not you do an updated review in the future is up to you.


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## Garry (Apr 2, 2018)

jamwerks said:


> Fake news! Where did I say or even insinuate that?



Er, well here, like 50 minutes ago:



jamwerks said:


> @Daniel James, why would you want to enter into a public critical discussion with SF over their sampler?


----------



## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

jamwerks said:


> Your concerns? Prove you wrong? That begs the question who you think you are ?


I was one of their biggest critics, I was asking from _that_ position. That was the point. Paul said as much. Proving your biggest critic wrong publically is a big win for anyone. I extended that invitation, and was ignored.


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## Paul Owen (Apr 2, 2018)

Did anyone else hear that huge sigh of relief over at Cinesamples?


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## benmrx (Apr 2, 2018)

And don't those SOS reviews always reek of nothing but pure honesty. Personally, I'll take a review from someone that did NOT receive an NFR copy, and that works 'in the trenches' ANYDAY over an SOS article.


----------



## Guffy (Apr 2, 2018)




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## jamwerks (Apr 2, 2018)

Garry said:


> Er, well here, like 50 minutes ago


Where? Quote me!


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

Hang on lads I'm at lunch with the wife, I'll get to your points when I get back to the studio.

-DJ


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## Garry (Apr 2, 2018)

jamwerks said:


> Where? Quote me!



 I DID!!! 

Bedtime for me - nite all!


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## LinusW (Apr 2, 2018)

reutunes said:


> What's more useful to Samplecast viewers - a review of a library on day one (with bugs), or a review of a more stable future update?


Day one. There are always alpha versions, beta versions and suddenly there is a product stable enough for selling. That is what I would like to be reviewed. Not any preview videos, show me 1.0. If a potential customer believes they will be happy with 1.0 and able to ignore a bug, then they will purchase it. It is always better to be aware of known bugs before purchase than discovering it afterwards. Still, 1.0 is 1.0 and should be good enough.


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## jamwerks (Apr 2, 2018)

Garry said:


> I just don't understand such thinking. If you think the discussion is just over switching sampler, you have a number of threads you should read to update yourself. If you think a fellow customer, who spent money on a product, should shut up about his grievances on a public discussion forum, then you as a customer are voting against your own interests. If you think a relatively young guy, early in his career, being honest about his criticisms, without hiding behind internet anonymity isn't showing integrity and bravery, I can only suggest you look those words up.


So you put words in my mouth, and then suggest I don't know about integrity? I think you owe me an apology!


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 2, 2018)

Garry said:


> Paul, you can object to the specific wording if you choose to, but I think that would be to miss the point. Publicly denigrating the position of someone who reviews your library, some of which is not to your liking, is an own goal, and a mistake that I, as a supporter and previous/future customer of Spitfire, wish you would not make. I understand your passion to defend yourself and your team, and no one here knows the effort that has been put into this library as you do, but some unbiased, uninvolved feedback: _this _is not the way to do it.


Oh, I got dragged back in.
Sorry man, I take a different view on this. DJ has been pretty public about this library over the past week. 5 hours of video and 1000's of words in *all the places where SA customers are likely to lurk.* Much of it not kind.

I think Paul is being massively restrained. Sorry to swim against the tide.


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## Garry (Apr 2, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> Oh, I got dragged back in.
> Sorry man, I take a different view on this. DJ has been pretty public about this library over the past week. 5 hours of video and 1000's of words in *all the places where SA customers are likely to lurk.* Much of it not kind.
> 
> I think Paul is being massively restrained. Sorry to swim against the tide.


Yeah, no problem. I don’t think Paul is wrong for addressing him, and discussing the points he raises, but the ad hominem stuff to a prominent (whether they like it or not) customer/reviewer, is not a good move, that’s all I’m saying. In fact, to my reading, that’s also what Daniel was saying too: requesting that Paul engage with the issues he raised, rather than the personal stuff. I recognise Paul’s in a difficult position here, but in the discussion between Daniel and Hans, Hans demonstrated there’s a right way to go about it.


----------



## Mike Fox (Apr 2, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> I sense the post count on this thread is about to go up..
> 
> Hey DJ - Whilst I enjoyed your ranty review, I feel I've gotta mention..
> Your views can be as critical as you wish - that's your call entirely. Ultimately though (assuming you don't torpedo your career!) there won't be any hard, real world consequences for you from a bad review.
> ...


I don't know. I'd say Daniel has a pretty good reputation as a composer, and now there is a bit of animosity towards him by some people. Could that affect his career? I hope not, but If so, aren't those some pretty real world consequences? Daniel even mentioned his career in the review, but what I absolutely love is that we got to see what's arguably the most honest sample library review ever! Love it or hate. Agree or disagree. Daniel's review was from the heart, and it strikes a chord in anyone who watches it. If Spitfire takes a hit due to that, then I don't feel sorry for them any more than when I read a customer's bad review for a local restaurant and decide to eat somewhere else. Not to mention that it's always a tacky move when the manager or owner of a restaurant confronts the customer when they don't like the food. I've spent most of my working career in customer service, and while I know the customer isn't always right, it's usually beneficial to try to find common ground with them.


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## Garry (Apr 2, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> I don't know. I'd say Daniel has a pretty good reputation as a composer, and now there is a bit of animosity towards him by some people. Could that affect his career? I hope not, but If so, aren't those some pretty real world consequences? Daniel even mentioned his career in the review, but what I absolutely love is that we got to see what's arguably the most honest sample library review ever! Love it or hate. Agree or disagree. Daniel's review was from the heart, and it strikes a chord in anyone who watches it. If Spitfire takes a hit due to that, then I don't feel sorry for them any more than when I read a customer's bad review for a local restaurant and decide to eat somewhere else. Not to mention that it's always a tacky move when the manager or owner of a restaurant confronts the customer when they don't like the food. I've spent most of my working career in customer service, and while I know the customer isn't always right, it's usually beneficial to try to find common ground with them.


Quite right. Not to mention that I’ve read numerous people comment that they bought HZS BECAUSE of Daniel’s review, in other words, they didn’t want it to sound like Pirates, they wanted Dunkirk. You have to take the rough with the smooth sometimes, and hope it all balances out in the end.


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 2, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> I don't know. I'd say Daniel has a pretty good reputation as a composer, and now there is a bit of animosity towards him by some people. Could that affect his career? I hope not, but If so, aren't those some pretty real world consequences? Daniel even mentioned his career in the review, but what I absolutely love is that we got to see what's arguably the most honest sample library review ever! Love it or hate. Agree or disagree. Daniel's review was from the heart, and it strikes a chord in anyone who watches it. If Spitfire takes a hit due to that, then I don't feel sorry for them any more than when I read a customer's bad review for a local restaurant and decide to eat somewhere else. Not to mention that it's always a tacky move when the manager or owner of a restaurant confronts the customer when they don't like the food. I've spent most of my working career in customer service, and while I know the customer isn't always right, it's usually beneficial to try to find common ground with them.


Some good points. I think DJ's career will be just fine. He got an invite to film at HZ's place for a couple of days learning the custom sampler, so...
Go and work with Hans for 2 days > Make yourself a ninja on his custom rig > Ask for a job.
Is what I'd do. 

Like I said before, I watched more of Dan's review than I'm happy to admit. A bit "round peg in square hole" at times, but I love the anarchy. I'm a fan. But I'm not going to view it as "the little guy standing up to the big company for everyone's benefit." DJ's reviews, posts and vids are also self serving. Two sides to every story etc.

Now back to this mix.


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

The Darris said:


> You admitted to emailing Spitfire about doing a live video to prove their engine is good, after weeks of being very critical of it and how it will fail without any real information at hand.



Ok to this point I never knew it was bad, I was _worried _it would be bad based on the examples of previous companies trying to move to their own engine. So me emailing them to do a video was an opportunity for them to very publicly correct me IF I was wrong in my concerns (if I was wrong being a key word there) I am not ignorant to the fact that I have a decent amount of viewers so I thought if the engine was solid as they were claiming, it would be a great way to prove it to people....by shutting up the person who was being the most critical. I think then and still think now it would have made for a great video. Because I would have been wrong, so I get what I want because the engine is solid and they would have got what they wanted because they would have proved there was nothing to worry about. It wasn't about being sneaky or being disingenuous. It was about showing the people who care what there is and isnt to worry about with an upcoming project. Like I said though they chose to ignore that which is fine (well its fine so long as you don't try to use it as an attack against my integrity)



The Darris said:


> Now, you spent $600 on a library and immediately do a 5 hour overview fumbling around and are very critical of it. Sure, bugs are worth being critical of but from the few minutes I watched before i turned it off, you were clearly missing the concept or point of certain articulations (I've laid my thoughts out on that in your thread on here without response from you by the way). Now, I'm not saying you cannot express your opinion about those articulations but it didn't come off that way. You made it their fault versus your own personal taste.



Thats absolutely fine, if you don't like the way I am showing it or I don't like something and you do...thats fine too! I don't expect you to follow what I say just because I said it. At the same time I don't expect people to tell me my disappointment with something is wrong just because I didn't get it. Sure I absolutely misunderstood what it meant when you put Hans Zimmer on a product (as we have discussed elsewhere at length) but I still went through all of the content and gave my _personal _opinion on it. You can disagree with me absolutly, what we like and dislike is subjective. Bugs and inconsistencies are not subjective however and I feel I was fair and accurate in showing those off. Again I also said LOTS of good things about the library in the 5 hours, but most people just focus in on the bits I thought were a bit shit. People love some drama it seems. 'Shots Fired' as a title sums that up 



The Darris said:


> Paul and Company have been very vocal about how you just plug and play and give zero regard to "purpose" of a library simply because it doesn't do what you want it to. This has been the case with other products you've reviewed as well. Strezov Sampling's Freyja is a prime example of you not knowing or understanding how something works and instead of trying to learn, you criticize it for being either too complex or not easy to use out of the box. You are basically saying it's the developer's fault that you don't get it. Again, expectations you've applied without thought to the true purpose and function of the library. Again, this is the same situation with HZ Strings re; articulations that are soft. You just pawned it off as "too quiet" and pointless because of whatever internal views you had this library should be despite Spitfire's marketing being very clear weeks prior, even in their live announcement and demos. I mean, come on, don't be upset because they don't give you NFR's anymore, you clearly have the DJ filter that decides what the library should be or sound like before you get it and if it doesn't meet those expectations, you harshly criticize it to a point that can be viewed as biased or unfair.



Most people (and I have spoken to people at length about this also) when they open a library do just that...they open it. The buy it, download it, then load it up. They start playing around and try to suss out what everything does, how it sounds out of the box, what will be useful to them, what they will never use. That is what I do in my videos, I live record that exact process that many others do themselves. Many find this approach useful, because they also dont like to read manuals. If you open a UI and its confusing as fuck then its poor UI design. If you can open a UI and understand how it works without reading the manual then its good UI design (well its a bit more complex than that but that is the gist) Omnisphere is extremely deep but VERY easy to understand how it works. Some UI designs are not so much and I mention that when I open a library for the first time. I think its a fair thing to comment on also, as many others who will open the library will be presented with the same UI and may be equally as confused. 

And its pretty much impossible to not get a purpose of a library usually. If I buy a string library I expect it will be used as such. My mistake, again which we have already discussed elsewhere, was thinking that Hans Zimmer Strings would in someway be intrinsically Hans Zimmer sounding which as it turns out wasn't the aim. So part of my first look was re-adjusting to myself what the purpose of this specific library was going to be in relation of my work (most of my videos are about how I would use a library), it was going to be strings regardless but now I need to go through and think what this library will be useful to me for specifically. Again many of the comments here, on youtube and fackbook seem to support the notion that I alone wasnt the only one who made the mistake of what putting Hans Zimmer on a product meant. So my first look helped at least a few people out in that regard.

-DJ


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## novaburst (Apr 2, 2018)

reutunes said:


> _"I’d wait. They are a great company and I’d trust them to put out a timely update."_



As strange as it may sound Developer are our brothers and sisters in arms, because of them it has meant we have been able to do some very beautiful project in music.

I am in no way excusing giving away cash for unfinished or broken products but when we do such sad things as expose some ones faults and shame them in the public eye you need to consider the deep damage you become responsible for in putting down that developer then consider what did you gain in doing so then if you were on a difficult path would you want others to make that path more difficult for you.

First and foremost if you can not get a satisfactory review out of the library then you should not review it.

Secondly you must allow Spitfire to go through the process of allowing owners to bug report on there web page so they can promptly sort it out, you also should understand that a part of bug problems is in our own systems that we are using and can contribute a lot to malfunction of a product.

To go out there to expose some ones fault or indeed mistakes is the lowest thing some one can do as many of the problems are genuine mistakes.

Developers are not are enemy's they are there to help us build our dreams, you know as well as I do that Spitfire made a big move and some are purposely out there to condemn them for that move by doing reviews about them knowingly there would have been mistakes they could expose.....very low

We Are first musicians that try to inspire and make thing beautiful we our not those who condemn and shame because it will some how higher our ratings.

If you cant do a review because you feel it is too buggy my suggestion is don't do a review.

If you want to go ahead you are free to do so but believe me what goes around comes around and it will be your turn next. 

You see what this inter net has done is put a lot of power in the ordinary person you can do more damage to Spitfire or you can lay off and let them sort this difficult time out,

But let us musicians not be the course of even more harm to them give them a chance.


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> Oh, I got dragged back in.
> Sorry man, I take a different view on this. DJ has been pretty public about this library over the past week. 5 hours of video and 1000's of words in *all the places where SA customers are likely to lurk.* Much of it not kind.
> 
> I think Paul is being massively restrained. Sorry to swim against the tide.



Mate never apologise for going against the trend. I am usually trying to make sure what I am saying doesn't get misappropriated or misconstrued to mean something I am not saying. Usually when you hold a negative opinion on something people seem to take it as some sort of personal offence or attack (see Paul above, spot anywhere he is being attacked and notice how often he claims I am doing so)

This thread I felt was related to my discussion because its asking if he should give Spitfire a chance, with the implication being that others are not doing so (otherwise why bother with a title asking that in the first place) and I jumped in here to discuss my opinion on the question he posed, which while simple on the surface is actually a deep topic full of nuance and complexity which I am trying to explore. Even better trying to explore with the head of the company its in reference to it. We don't have to pick sides or anything like that, and we don't need to be quite as openly hostile as it feels some are. 

There are great conversations to have (kind of the point of an open message-board) and if you disagree with me personally on my opinion on the subject you can absolutely call me out and challenge me on it. 

-DJ


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 2, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Mate never apologise for going against the trend. I am usually trying to make sure what I am saying doesn't get misappropriated or misconstrued to mean something I am not saying. Usually when you hold a negative opinion on something people seem to take it as some sort of personal offence or attack (see Paul above, spot anywhere he is being attacked and notice how often he claims I am doing so)
> 
> This thread I felt was related to my discussion because its asking if he should give Spitfire a chance, with the implication being that others are not doing so (otherwise why bother with a title asking that in the first place) and I jumped in here to discuss my opinion on the question he posed, which while simple on the surface is actually a deep topic full of nuance and complexity which I am trying to explore. Even better trying to explore with the head of the company its in reference to it. We don't have to pick sides or anything like that, and we don't need to be quite as openly hostile as it feels some are.
> 
> ...


Fair enough mate. Then you and Paul should probably meet for a beer and hash it out/smooth it over. Words on the internetz have a habit of sounding harsher than they really are.

How was lunch? I bet your better half hates VI control..


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## jononotbono (Apr 2, 2018)

Curious how someone gets to review products for NFR versions? Sounds like a lot of fun and would love to try it sometime!


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

novaburst said:


> Secondly you must allow Spitfire to go through the process of allowing owners to bug report on there web page so they can promptly sort it out, you also should understand that a part of bug problems is in our own systems that we are using and can contribute a lot to malfunction of a product.



I disagree with this bit slightly. The onus shouldn't be on the customer to find faults with a product, the company themselves are responsible for quality assurance. If they release it buggy that fault lies with them, not the reviewers that point it out. It should be reviewed in the state its released, in my opinion of course.



novaburst said:


> Developers are not are enemy's they are there to help us build our dreams



This is partly true. Their aim is to make money. If their only aim was to help us build our dreams they wouldn't charge (or overcharge in some peoples opinion) Some companies even have over 40 people on staff....so they have a bottom line that they HAVE to achieve to keep going. If you are buying something there is a professional mutual understanding....I give you money, you give me what I paid for.

Of course they dont have to be mutually exclusive they can sell you things and genuinely care (not just say they do) about the dreams of every customer, but companies exist to sell things usually. And I love that they exist, SF samples are for the most part really awesome, but I don't think anybody _owes_ them anything..... the same as they don't owe anything to me beyond selling me what I paid for. (That isnt a comment on my misunderstanding of brand Spitfire, they did deliver me what I paid for, a string library with Hans' name on, im talking more about the bugs and general trading practise in general etc)



novaburst said:


> If you cant do a review because you feel it is too buggy my suggestion is don't do a review.
> 
> If you want to go ahead you are free to do so but believe me what goes around comes around and it will be your turn next.
> 
> ...



I feel the point of reviewers is to actually help the industries they are in. They create a degree of accountability. If SF releases 5 more libraries today with the same kind of bugs HZS has and reviewers point it out, people will stop buying SF libraries. So SF will be forced to do better next time. So with the addition of reviewers adding accountability to the state companies put out products, the better the libraries end up being in the long run. Spitfire will make better and more stable products....consumers will get better and more stable products.

If you don't call out a company when they do something wrong there is no incentive for them to improve themselves going forward. If you didn't have the competition creating libraries with more features and new ideas you would have no incentive to grow. So I feel like while calling out companies shortcomings will hurt in the short term (as it seems with Paul) in the long run everyone wins, because tomorrow will be more improved than today (you can bet the legatos on the next library will be checked and double checked before release). At least thats how I see it, and why I keep doing what I do. I like improvement.

-DJ


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## blougui (Apr 2, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> Curious how someone gets to review products for NFR versions? Sounds like a lot of fun and would love to try it sometime!


I'm surprised you don't guess it, since you're pretty present here. You might want to review online some of the lib you bought and, as (or if) the following grows on your Channel, then devs would begin to think you might be of some interest for showing off their products.


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## jononotbono (Apr 2, 2018)

blougui said:


> I'm surprised you don't guess it, since you're pretty present here. You might want to review online some of the lib you bought and, as (or if) the following grows on your Channel, then devs would begin to think you might be of some interest for showing off their products.



Guessing something isn't any problem for me. Knowing exactly how something works is a different thing altogether. It seems some people review products full time as opposed to some that do the occasional review. Anyway, I don't mean to derail this thread anymore that it is but thanks for the response.


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## procreative (Apr 2, 2018)

D Halgren said:


> I assume DJ has a business structure in place and these purchases are a write-off



I think you misunderstand tax write-offs. You only save on the tax you would have paid on the profit you made. If you spend $500 and the tax rate is 20%, its still effectively cost you $400.

And you have to have made the $500 profit to start with.

So even with a write-off, spending $500 on a library that does not work for you is still $500 wasted.


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## D Halgren (Apr 2, 2018)

procreative said:


> I think you misunderstand tax write-offs. You only save on the tax you would have paid on the profit you made. If you spend $500 and the tax rate is 20%, its still effectively cost you $400.
> 
> And you have to have made the $500 profit to start with.
> 
> So even with a write-off, spending $500 on a library that does not work for you is still $500 wasted.


I think you misunderstand. If you are in the business of selling music, then any expenses directly related to that business are written off. You only pay taxes on net profit, not gross, for the most part.


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## The Darris (Apr 2, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Ok to this point I never knew it was bad, I was _worried _it would be bad based on the examples of previous companies trying to move to their own engine. So me emailing them to do a video was an opportunity for them to very publicly correct me IF I was wrong in my concerns (if I was wrong being a key word there) I am not ignorant to the fact that I have a decent amount of viewers so I thought if the engine was solid as they were claiming, it would be a great way to prove it to people....by shutting up the person who was being the most critical. I think then and still think now it would have made for a great video. Because I would have been wrong, so I get what I want because the engine is solid and they would have got what they wanted because they would have proved there was nothing to worry about. It wasn't about being sneaky or being disingenuous. It was about showing the people who care what there is and isnt to worry about with an upcoming project. Like I said though they chose to ignore that which is fine (well its fine so long as you don't try to use it as an attack against my integrity)


The fact that you started a "worried" discussion and were very vocal and used your clout to start a big concern over something that wasn't released yet whilst then reaching out to a developer to correct you if you were wrong is just in poor taste. Regardless of what the truth may be in the end, you've built a huge concern over essentially nothing at the time and skewed the view points of others before hand. In the end, the major issues seem to be isolated to certain system configurations, my setup being one of those effected whilst other are experiencing issues that don't really effect the overall product so they can judge it pretty freely based on how it's designed to work. That's my point. I know you weren't trying to be sneaky, you just care about your viewers and the content you release so you want to build buzz about it. It was never about the library, just about you getting them to prove you wrong which seems completely ass backwards from how we should be viewing new software like this.





Daniel James said:


> Thats absolutely fine, if you don't like the way I am showing it or I don't like something and you do...thats fine too! I don't expect you to follow what I say just because I said it. At the same time I don't expect people to tell me my disappointment with something is wrong just because I didn't get it. Sure I absolutely misunderstood what it meant when you put Hans Zimmer on a product (as we have discussed elsewhere at length) but I still went through all of the content and gave my _personal _opinion on it. You can disagree with me absolutly, what we like and dislike is subjective. Bugs and inconsistencies are not subjective however and I feel I was fair and accurate in showing those off. Again I also said LOTS of good things about the library in the 5 hours, but most people just focus in on the bits I thought were a bit shit. People love some drama it seems. 'Shots Fired' as a title sums that up


Fair enough on those points and your views. I get that. I laughed at your comment about drama when people are already posting snippets of your stream where you are really over-the-top ranting about the quiet patches and something about Jack Sparrow's dick. I guess you sort of like drama too. Haha.





Daniel James said:


> Most people (and I have spoken to people at length about this also) when they open a library do just that...they open it. The buy it, download it, then load it up. They start playing around and try to suss out what everything does, how it sounds out of the box, what will be useful to them, what they will never use. That is what I do in my videos, I live record that exact process that many others do themselves. Many find this approach useful, because they also dont like to read manuals. If you open a UI and its confusing as fuck then its poor UI design. If you can open a UI and understand how it works without reading the manual then its good UI design (well its a bit more complex than that but that is the gist) Omnisphere is extremely deep but VERY easy to understand how it works. Some UI designs are not so much and I mention that when I open a library for the first time. I think its a fair thing to comment on also, as many others who will open the library will be presented with the same UI and may be equally as confused.


Again, makes sense. I do this too BUT furthermore you go a little beyond the critical aspect of it and start bashing it in ways. Whenever I come across something that I don't get or understand, I try to figure out what the developer's intentions were and make sure I understand that FIRST before I am critical of it. If it makes sense and works as they intended, then I can be critical of that feature in a positive or negative way, how ever my tastes go. That's the problem I'm trying to get you to understand. Freyja was a prime example where they've included a detailed manual within the patch that clearly explains what it does and would sum up the concerns you had but you just blew it off and said some feature didn't work right when that was factually incorrect. It worked as advertised, you just didn't understand it. Don't use your ignorance as a means to negatively criticize a library. That is essentially being biased.



Daniel James said:


> And its pretty much impossible to not get a purpose of a library usually. If I buy a string library I expect it will be used as such. My mistake, again which we have already discussed elsewhere, was thinking that Hans Zimmer Strings would in someway be intrinsically Hans Zimmer sounding which as it turns out wasn't the aim. So part of my first look was re-adjusting to myself what the purpose of this specific library was going to be in relation of my work (most of my videos are about how I would use a library), it was going to be strings regardless but now I need to go through and think what this library will be useful to me for specifically. Again many of the comments here, on youtube and fackbook seem to support the notion that I alone wasnt the only one who made the mistake of what putting Hans Zimmer on a product meant. So my first look helped at least a few people out in that regard.
> 
> -DJ



Yeah, the style of the library has been beaten to death at this point but there was nothing other than the title of the library to help you draw that false conclusion. The demos, live stream, walkthroughs, and product page are very clear about what this library was designed to do prior to release. The manual was even available well before hand too. In fact, I can't remember a time where Spitfire was that forth coming with the content and intent of their libraries in the past. Even HZ was clear about his vision and concept of it prior to release. I think you and those you speak of just simply made assumptions which is a very human thing to do. It's not Spitfire's fault, that's yours. I've done that in the past with libraries as well. I spent hundreds on a product that I THOUGHT, would do x, y, and z and failed to really do the research before buying and come to realize it actually did a, b, and c. That was my fault. Not the developers. So, when I tell you that watching your stream and witnessing your reactions, it very much felt like you were criticizing their design as being deceptive and in way, implied that it was falsely advertised. Sure, you said some good stuff but nobody cares about those points when you are describing how you want to get slapped in the face with Jack Sparrows dick. 

Cheers,

Chris


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## chillbot (Apr 2, 2018)

D Halgren said:


> I think you misunderstand. If you are in the business of selling music, then any expenses directly related to that business are written off. You only pay taxes on net profit, not gross, for the most part.


Oh man I wish it worked like that.

For what it's worth I pay over 50% taxes here in the US, but let's call it an even 50%.

If I make $100,000 I pay $50,000 in taxes on that.

If I buy a sample library for $500 now I write it off of the $100k and pay 50% of $99,500 which is $49,750. So the library "only" cost me a net $250. I spent $500 and I saved $250 on taxes. That is what procreative is saying.

Ir's fun to see how far off-topic we can push this thread from it's original intent, it's crazy. Anyone watching the Red Sox & Marlins today?


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## procreative (Apr 2, 2018)

D Halgren said:


> I think you misunderstand. If you are in the business of selling music, then any expenses directly related to that business are written off. You only pay taxes on net profit, not gross, for the most part.



I don't misunderstand, nothing is totally "written off". If tax is 20%, then in the end thats all you are writing off. There is this misnomer in business expenses are "free". Its still $400 out of a pot that would have been profit.

Thats $400 that could have been spent on a holiday, food shopping, rent, mortgage etc.

I've run my own incorporated business for 25 years so I know exactly how tax/write-offs work.


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## D Halgren (Apr 2, 2018)

chillbot said:


> Oh man I wish it worked like that.
> 
> For what it's worth I pay over 50% taxes here in the US, but let's call it an even 50%.
> 
> ...


I get it.


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 2, 2018)

chillbot said:


> Oh man I wish it worked like that.
> 
> For what it's worth I pay over 50% taxes here in the US, but let's call it an even 50%.
> 
> ...


I think they're talking about the same thing, making the same point, just late night internet adding to the drama.
Are you talking about baseball? We brits don't really see it.
I can moan about my children abusing YouTube kids if you really want to take a wander OT?


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## D Halgren (Apr 2, 2018)

procreative said:


> I don't misunderstand, nothing is totally "written off". If tax is 20%, then in the end thats all you are writing off. There is this misnomer in business expenses are "free". Its still $400 out of a pot that would have been profit.
> 
> Thats $400 that could have been spent on a holiday, food shopping, rent, mortgage etc.
> 
> I've run my own incorporated business for 25 years so I know exactly how tax/write-offs work.


Yes, I understand your point. I run several businesses. It's a matter of perspective. You have to spend some money to do the business in the first place, and you will still have the product bought to make more money with. But, you are right, if you look at it that way.


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## chillbot (Apr 2, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> I think they're talking about the same thing, making the same point


Yes I realized that too. Same point. I thought I could clarify a bit.

Sox are down 1-0 in the top of the 2nd.


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

The Darris just before we get into all of this...will you also be getting an NFR for Hans Zimmer Strings for your Samples Spotlight channel? I feel like it would be worth me knowing that so I can temper some of my responses specifically to you as I know you have a small dog in this fight too.



The Darris said:


> The fact that you started a "worried" discussion and were very vocal and used your clout to start a big concern over something that wasn't released yet whilst then reaching out to a developer to correct you if you were wrong is just in poor taste. Regardless of what the truth may be in the end, you've built a huge concern over essentially nothing at the time and skewed the view points of others before hand. In the end, the major issues seem to be isolated to certain system configurations, my setup being one of those effected whilst other are experiencing issues that don't really effect the overall product so they can judge it pretty freely based on how it's designed to work. That's my point. I know you weren't trying to be sneaky, you just care about your viewers and the content you release so you want to build buzz about it. It was never about the library, just about you getting them to prove you wrong which seems completely ass backwards from how we should be viewing new software like this.



I never used my 'clout' to stir up worry. I never talked about it outside vi control threads so lets not claim like I was Joan of Arc here or something. I was worried as a customer, as I was when EW moved to PLAY, and we all know how the new engine went for them. Many other people were worried too, so we had a conversation about it. There was no mal-intent or trolling, just people worried and asking for clarification. I am aware my channel had a decent viewership and I like the Spitfire guys so I was offering a win for them if they wanted it. If the engine was as solid as they were claiming, I was happy to be proven wrong about it. They didn't have to of course, it was just a random idea I thought could be a fun way to put an issue to bed. An ability I could offer them that few others can.



The Darris said:


> Fair enough on those points and your views. I get that. I laughed at your comment about drama when people are already posting snippets of your stream where you are really over-the-top ranting about the quiet patches and something about Jack Sparrow's dick. I guess you sort of like drama too. Haha.



For me its more like I wrap my critiques up in comedic delivery. If I can make people laugh at a bad situation I will, I think thats a very British thing in general. So yes in that one clip going round absolutely over the top for comedic effect. What I am saying I support but obviously the wording is for effect.



The Darris said:


> Again, makes sense. I do this too BUT furthermore you go a little beyond the critical aspect of it and start bashing it in ways. Whenever I come across something that I don't get or understand, I try to figure out what the developer's intentions were and make sure I understand that FIRST before I am critical of it. If it makes sense and works as they intended, then I can be critical of that feature in a positive or negative way, how ever my tastes go. That's the problem I'm trying to get you to understand. Freyja was a prime example where they've included a detailed manual within the patch that clearly explains what it does and would sum up the concerns you had but you just blew it off and said some feature didn't work right when that was factually incorrect. It worked as advertised, you just didn't understand it. Don't use your ignorance as a means to negatively criticize a library. That is essentially being biased.



I don't use my ignorance as a means to be negative about something as a point. If I am ignorant to something, then usually the product didn't make that feature/function clear enough, so as I said others will probably hit the same hurdle and if the company sees it they know that going forward they can make sure to make things more obvious... its like in video games people didn't know where to go sometimes so developers started putting lights over door that you can enter, you can always imply to a user how something works in various ways...colors, size of things, if it does something when you hover over it. If I am expected to do something specific to make you library work, but there is no obvious and clear way being indicated to me when I am using it...I just have to KNOW or read the manual, then its usually poor design. Of course I might just miss things and thats just what it is. You clearly noticed I missed it so its not the end of the world, others will notice too...again this is a reason I never edit away.



The Darris said:


> Yeah, the style of the library has been beaten to death at this point but there was nothing other than the title of the library to help you draw that false conclusion. The demos, live stream, walkthroughs, and product page are very clear about what this library was designed to do prior to release. The manual was even available well before hand too. In fact, I can't remember a time where Spitfire was that forth coming with the content and intent of their libraries in the past. Even HZ was clear about his vision and concept of it prior to release. I think you and those you speak of just simply made assumptions which is a very human thing to do. It's not Spitfire's fault, that's yours. I've done that in the past with libraries as well. I spent hundreds on a product that I THOUGHT, would do x, y, and z and failed to really do the research before buying and come to realize it actually did a, b, and c. That was my fault. Not the developers. So, when I tell you that watching your stream and witnessing your reactions, it very much felt like you were criticizing their design as being deceptive and in way, implied that it was falsely advertised. Sure, you said some good stuff but nobody cares about those points when you are describing how you want to get slapped in the face with Jack Sparrows dick.



I have conceded that many times. Any people who watch my first look can temper their own expectations. If they go into it knowing what it actually is they will just disregard what I say when I talk about it. If they go in thinking what I thought then I just saved them making a purchase they didn't want. My mistake serves as an example for others to learn from. And if you read the comments on that video, many have.

-DJ


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## D Halgren (Apr 2, 2018)

procreative said:


> I don't misunderstand, nothing is totally "written off". If tax is 20%, then in the end thats all you are writing off. There is this misnomer in business expenses are "free". Its still $400 out of a pot that would have been profit.
> 
> Thats $400 that could have been spent on a holiday, food shopping, rent, mortgage etc.
> 
> I've run my own incorporated business for 25 years so I know exactly how tax/write-offs work.


And I didn't intend to offend you in any way. Text never shows tone.


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## BradHoyt (Apr 2, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Hey Reuben I wanted to continue the conversation here rather than facebook.
> 
> This one clearly has bugs....and obvious ones, I know Paul is saying that sometimes you miss bugs but lets be honest the legato was so obviously broken within the first few notes played (watch my vid for proof) there is no way a beta team missed that. BUT that is the state in which they decided it was ready for people to pay for. As a reviewer you should make them accountable for that decision, the dream being, going forward, more attention is paid to stability and quality control....I imagine their next libraries legato will be checked and double checked after the backlash which was brought to light by people reviewing what was released (and not just by me).
> 
> ...


Just wanted to add this little observation: By making the assumption that they should have caught a bug during beta testing when, unbeknownst to you, it didn't exist during beta testing just shows your lack of experience when it comes to software development. As someone who actually has been in software development and software QA testing for a number of years, I'm here to tell you that bugs can creep in at any time. In fact, the possibility of something creeping in close to a deadline is _infinitely more likely _to happen compared to it festering in a beta for months (...and while Hanz himself was using it. lol).


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 2, 2018)

chillbot said:


> Sox are down 1-0 in the top of the 2nd.


What does that even mean?  

When I get invested in a debate about tax, within a thread about a review policy on sample libraries, on a niche internet forum.... it's time to quit and go to bed.


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

BradHoyt said:


> Just wanted to add this little observation: By making the assumption that they should have caught a bug during beta testing when, unbeknownst to you, it didn't exist during beta testing just shows your lack of experience when it comes to software development. As someone who actually has been in software development and software QA testing for a number of years, I'm here to tell you that bugs can creep in at any time. In fact, the possibility of something creeping in close to a deadline is _infinitely more likely _to happen compared to it festering in a beta for months (...and while Hanz himself was using it. lol).



For sure man I didn't know. But they if they did decide to change something at the last section which somehow magically fucked up the legatos they should have at least given her a last run through before clicking send. Like I said they are obviously broken and jumpy in volume....if you watch the video it happened in like the first 3 notes I played. So while its possible they didn't know it was broken before releasing it feels so obviously broken that I'm surprised it was never checked. But alas the product went out in the state it did, so I can only comment on what I was sold not on how it was before they released it.

-DJ


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## procreative (Apr 2, 2018)

Back on the topic this thread has sidetracked into...

DJ bought the library, frankly he can post a video of whatever he likes about it. Unlike a NFR or compensated reviewer he does not have to tow the party line. Sure Spitfire might feel aggrieved, but just like reviews by guests on tripadvisor the onus is on us to make up our own minds on what we hear/read.

1. The library may well be a labour of love/100s of hours/players on union rates etc. But its not free to own, purchasers are likely spending a huge chunk of money, so a completely untainted viewpoint is useful.

2. Nothing in that walkthrough should be cause for concern if it were completely untrue, it seems to me its hit a nerve as there are clearly issues with this library.

3. I seem to remember Paul and Christian got very heated a few years back and promised not to dive into non commercial threads to avoid escalating rows. In my opinion while I understand their passion this is very counter productive.

I don't understand why Spitfire should be any more immune from critique than any other developer. East West got a pretty raw deal round these parts for similar "shortcomings".

Personally I managed to work out for me that this one had too many question marks over (a) if it suited me and (b) if my gear could handle the large storage required and system resources to fully exploit.


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## BradHoyt (Apr 2, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> For sure man I didn't know. But they if they did decide to change something at the last section which somehow magically fucked up the legatos they should have at least given her a last run through before clicking send. Like I said they are obviously broken and jumpy in volume....if you watch the video it happened in like the first 3 notes I played. So while its possible they didn't know it was broken before releasing it feels so obviously broken that I'm surprised it was never checked. But alas the product went out in the state it did, so I can only comment on what I was sold not on how it was before they released it.
> 
> -DJ



You're still note really getting it dude... Things can work 100% fine for months and one line of code changes and you're fucked. You don't know what bugs they were fixing before this one appeared at the worst time, etc. It's not like Spitfire's saying "You get what you get, not don't throw a fit!" + "Fuck off!" lol The bottom line is, if it's fixed in a week or two once they find out about it, that's all you can ask of any software company. Especially around the release date...


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## Pontus Rufelt (Apr 2, 2018)

As a customer my experience definitely will have me weary of future Spitfire releases - or at least have me waiting weeks or months beyond release. With dodgy legato, Certain RRs with very noticeably incorrect velocity responses, an engine giving many Windows 10 users really bad performance on capable PCs - it comes across as a bit of a sloppy release.

The frustrating part is that I love the library and sounds themselves. I just want to be able to use it.

When Spitfire chose to make their own plugin, they gained more control over the development process, and thus also assume more responsibilities. So far my customer experience has been to troubleshoot for hours, something I've never had to do with their other Kontakt-based libraries. So it's fair to aim some criticism at Spitfire in my opinion.


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## gyprock (Apr 2, 2018)

Manufacturers of digital products get away with releasing premature products to the market under the guise that any bugs will be fixed later. This is an absolute luxury granted to developers of software. When physical products are involved there are major consequences when there is a fault in the product as it usually leads to recalls or redesign. Engineers have to be super careful that the designs are correct and thoroughly tested before release. You don't just release the latest luxury BMW with a spark plug missing without major consequences. Just look what happened to VW and their emissions scam. Imagine if this same level of scrutiny was applied to sample libraries. My suggestion to Spitfire is to slow down the rate of product release and raise the level of beta testing and quality control. Get the product just right before moving to the next one.


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## BradHoyt (Apr 2, 2018)

gyprock said:


> Manufacturers of digital products get away with releasing premature products to the market under the guise that any bugs will be fixed later. This is an absolute luxury granted to developers of software. When physical products are involved there are major consequences when there is a fault in the product as it usually leads to recalls or redesign. Engineers have to be super careful that the designs are correct and thoroughly tested before release. You don't just release the latest luxury BMW with a spark plug missing without major consequences. Just look what happened to VW and their emissions scam. Imagine if this same level of scrutiny was applied to sample libraries. My suggestion to Spitfire is to slow down the rate of product release and raise the level of beta testing and quality control. Get the product just right before moving to the next one.



Luckily faulty legato isn't as deadly as missing spark plugs......


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

BradHoyt said:


> You're still note really getting it dude... Things can work 100% fine for months and one line of code changes and you're fucked. You don't know what bugs they were fixing before this one appeared at the worst time, etc. It's not like Spitfire's saying "You get what you get, not don't throw a fit!" + "Fuck off!" lol The bottom line is, if it's fixed in a week or two once they find out about it, that's all you can ask of any software company. Especially around the release date...


Oh no I get it (I used to program games as a kid haha) I'm just saying that the legato script is broken in such an overt way that whatever they changed at the last second must have been significant enough to warrant one final check. 

If you are changing code at the last second that has the potential to break something else important, you check what it might have broken. And in this case it wasn't a tiny thing, it was the legato, you could test that by loading a patch and pushing 2 or 3 keys. So I will give them the benefit of the doubt this feels to overt of an issue to have happened last second without ONE person noticing. Didn't I read they have 40 people on staff...if you change the code the day before it goes out, get everyone checking on that last day. Quality assurance is the responsibility of the developer not the customer. Would it have been acceptable if the code change last minute meant the library produced no sound...obviously no. But how would they have known if it was last second, and they clearly didn't test it 'last minute'. So it then becomes to what degree will people accept bugs. I'm sure someone checked to make sure it still made sound after the code change, they just didn't continue that process to check if the patches broke (because they would have spotted legato right off the bat)

I get coding is complex though. Just another risk of going with a custom engine on such a big release.

-DJ


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## The Darris (Apr 2, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> The Darris just before we get into all of this...will you also be getting an NFR for Hans Zimmer Strings for your Samples Spotlight channel? I feel like it would be worth me knowing that so I can temper some of my responses specifically to you as I know you have a small dog in this fight too.


Yes, I received an NFR but I can't really do anything with it as I am one of those with the major Win 10 issue so I haven't had a chance to really dive in. Just initial thoughts really as I've been able to play individual patches and test out different mic configurations. I just can't really sequence anything before it crumbles away beneath my notes. 



Daniel James said:


> I never used my 'clout' to stir up worry. I never talked about it outside the official thread so lets not claim like I was Joan of Arc here or something. I was worried as a customer, as I was when EW moved to PLAY, and we all know how the new engine went for them. Many other people were worried too, so we had a conversation about it. There was no mal-intent or trolling, just people worried and asking for clarification. I am aware my channel had a decent viewership and I like the Spitfire guys so I was offering a win for them if they wanted it. If the engine was as solid as they were claiming, I was happy to be proven wrong about it. They didn't have to of course, it was just a random idea I thought could be a fun way to put an issue to bed. An ability I could offer them that few others can.



I should have been more clear that it you may not have intentionally used your clout but you are aware you that you have a lot of followers and thus that comes with the territory. Regardless of where you post, a lot will listen and follow. I can't help but notice that you aren't seeing the issue here and I can't really explain it any clearer. Your post came up minutes after the live stream when there wasn't much conversation about it yet. Were you watching the live stream with a lot of friends and having that discussion already? I'm confused about that. You posted that because YOU were the one thinking it and thought that those who cared would want to discuss. I get that. That's totally fine. The issue I'm raising is about bias. You already had that bias and concern thus viewed, in some ways, viewed this library in your stream through that lens. You may not think that's what you did and I can't make you think that. I just sharing how it looked to me from what I've seen of your reactions and content thus far concerning HZ Strings. 




Daniel James said:


> For me its more like I wrap my critiques up in comedic delivery. If I can make people laugh at a bad situation I will, I think thats a very British thing in general. So yes in that one clip going round absolutely over the top for comedic effect. What I am saying I support but obviously the wording is for effect.


 I get that but a lot of people don't necessarily see it that way. I know you are a big proponent of saying what you mean and being direct, that's fine. But you always have to be willing to know when that ability has the effect to skew views on something and, in many cases, perpetuates more ignorance towards how something works. In this case, sample libraries. 




Daniel James said:


> I don't use my ignorance as a means to be negative about something as a point. If I am ignorant to something, then usually the product didn't make that feature/function clear enough, so as I said others will probably hit the same hurdle and if the company sees it they know that going forward they can make sure to make things more obvious... its like in video games people didn't know where to go sometimes so developers started putting lights over door that you can enter, you can always imply to a user how something works in various ways...colors, size of things, if it does something when you hover over it. If I am expected to do something specific to make you library work, but there is no obvious and clear way being indicated to me when I am using it...I just have to KNOW or read the manual, then its usually poor design. Of course I might just miss things and thats just what it is. You clearly noticed I missed it so its not the end of the world, others will notice too...again this is a reason I never edit away.



Intentially or not, that's what you do though. Sure, devs can learn from a feature that may not be easy to understand but then to go on about how it doesn't work and bash it when it works just fine, that's the problem you are failing to understand from my post. I'm a little confused, are you giving yourself a pass for "just missing" something or when you get something wrong and harp on that for a minute or two and then move on to the next topic? That's what you are doing. Missing something or being confused is one thing, missing something being confused and then harping on that product or feature or whatever is a completely different thing. That's my point. 




Daniel James said:


> I have conceded that many times. Any people who watch my first look can temper their own expectations. If they go into it knowing what it actually is they will just disregard what I say when I talk about it. If they go in thinking what I thought then I just saved them making a purchase they didn't want. My mistake serves as an example for others to learn from. And if you read the comments on that video, many have.


I understand that 100%. As content creator, I do have to consider what the viewers may think and I try to make that known. I try to review the library for what it is versus what I think it should be. That's sort of the difference I'm seeing in our views about libraries. You've never been a reviewer in my opinion. You are your own brand of, "I got this library, I'm going to write something with it and tell you what I think about it" and your opinions are all subjective to how you use stuff and not really viewed though the lens of how others might use it. I try to encompass a wide range of users with my content, though I don't have the following you do, it seems to work for me. I'm sure we have a lot of crossover of subscribers and those who care what we have to say about a library. Nothing wrong with that. To each their own. The biggest point I was making in response to yours was that you tend to get caught up in your own opinions of how something should work versus how it actually works. If it works the way you like it, it's good, if not, its bad. That just doesn't seem like the best way to critique something. The only reason I was really bring up your clout was the fact that people listen to what you have to say and you may not care or worry that the words you say can ultimately reflect positively or negatively on something or someone but that still remains. If you have that much power, you should take a second to know what you are talking about before you say it. That's my point. Agree or disagree, I think that pretty much covers my points.

Best,

Chris

-DJ[/QUOTE]


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

The Darris said:


> Yes, I received an NFR but I can't really do anything with it as I am one of those with the major Win 10 issue so I haven't had a chance to really dive in. Just initial thoughts really as I've been able to play individual patches and test out different mic configurations. I just can't really sequence anything before it crumbles away beneath my notes.



Ah ok thanks for clearing that up. I am sure what you are saying are legit points but I have to make sure I know, that while we are debating about the ethics of compensated reviews, wether the person I am debating has a reason other than the points being made to disagree with me. Even if they don't choose to do that. Its worth knowing upfront that you have a relationship with Spitfire that means it would be tough for you to agree with anything I say about them without it being stacked up against your vested interest in keeping on good terms with them (not blacklisted to hell like me haha)....and don't worry i'm not saying you are in their pocket, just that I like knowing which points to give up on because you could never agree to them if you wanted to maintain that relationship 



The Darris said:


> I should have been more clear that it you may not have intentionally used your clout but you are aware you that you have a lot of followers and thus that comes with the territory. Regardless of where you post, a lot will listen and follow. I can't help but notice that you aren't seeing the issue here and I can't really explain it any clearer. Your post came up minutes after the live stream when there wasn't much conversation about it yet. Were you watching the live stream with a lot of friends and having that discussion already? I'm confused about that. You posted that because YOU were the one thinking it and thought that those who cared would want to discuss. I get that. That's totally fine. The issue I'm raising is about bias. You already had that bias and concern thus viewed, in some ways, viewed this library in your stream through that lens. You may not think that's what you did and I can't make you think that. I just sharing how it looked to me from what I've seen of your reactions and content thus far concerning HZ Strings.



Oh I get that I have followers but I don't let that define what I do and don't talk about. Thats one of the reasons people follow me I think, because I just say how I feel. I commented before the live stream they did that I think they might try to do a custom engine and then when they announced they were doing a custom engine I started the topic, because we were already talking about the implications of a new engine in the official thread. I actually created that thread so it wouldn't muddy up their commercial thread. Where I thought they would rather talk about the hype and not the tech. But I wanted to discuss the tech with the community.....which I think is my prerogative on a public forum ABOUT sample libraries and the tech behind them no?



The Darris said:


> I get that but a lot of people don't necessarily see it that way. I know you are a big proponent of saying what you mean and being direct, that's fine. But you always have to be willing to know when that ability has the effect to skew views on something and, in many cases, perpetuates more ignorance towards how something works. In this case, sample libraries.



Thats where developers stepping up, as others have in the past and work with me to help figure out why I got something wrong. I have pointed out flaws in products before which the devs saw and fixed in their followups. Because of that I believe doing what I do has a place. There are enough people such as yourself out there doing straight up reviews. I just say how I feel and how it works for me, its up to people watching if they vaule that or not, so far my subscriber base continues to grow (slow as fuck but still) so some must find some value in it. May not be for you, but thats why you do it too!



The Darris said:


> Intentially or not, that's what you do though. Sure, devs can learn from a feature that may not be easy to understand but then to go on about how it doesn't work and bash it when it works just fine, that's the problem you are failing to understand from my post. I'm a little confused, are you giving yourself a pass for "just missing" something or when you get something wrong and harp on that for a minute or two and then move on to the next topic? That's what you are doing. Missing something or being confused is one thing, missing something being confused and then harping on that product or feature or whatever is a completely different thing. That's my point.



Like I said, If I missed something its because the software didn't indicate to me well enough that it could be done, or how its done. I have a fuck ton of sample libraries. 90% of which I understand from the get go....so it is possible to make your product intuitive, and if I can't understand how it works just by using it I put that down to poor design (its possible my lack of skill is a factor in some cases but even then as I don't edit away people can make up their own mind if its me being dumb or the design, most people are not total idiots and can think for themselves thankfully). But thats just how I interact with the world. You are free to disagree, and do it differently in you own videos!



The Darris said:


> I understand that 100%. As content creator, I do have to consider what the viewers may think and I try to make that known. I try to review the library for what it is versus what I think it should be. That's sort of the difference I'm seeing in our views about libraries. You've never been a reviewer in my opinion. You are your own brand of, "I got this library, I'm going to write something with it and tell you what I think about it" and your opinions are all subjective to how you use stuff and not really viewed though the lens of how others might use it. I try to encompass a wide range of users with my content, though I don't have the following you do, it seems to work for me. I'm sure we have a lot of crossover of subscribers and those who care what we have to say about a library. Nothing wrong with that. To each their own. The biggest point I was making in response to yours was that you tend to get caught up in your own opinions of how something should work versus how it actually works. If it works the way you like it, it's good, if not, its bad. That just doesn't seem like the best way to critique something. The only reason I was really bring up your clout was the fact that people listen to what you have to say and you may not care or worry that the words you say can ultimately reflect positively or negatively on something or someone but that still remains. If you have that much power, you should take a second to know what you are talking about before you say it. That's my point. Agree or disagree, I think that pretty much covers my points.



Yup I mention everytime I do a video that its about how I would personally use the library and how it fits into the context of work that I plan to do with it. I never claimed to be a 'reviewer' I guess I would fall into the category of influencer. I'm not a reviewing institution I am just a composer who gets new sample libraries then shares the exploration of it with people who care to view. I never quite understand why people who dont like that, or me, keep watching it then complaining that I am a terrible reviewer.......thats because I'm not XD 

And so yeah if something doesnt work the way I would like it too I would call it a negative, if people want to do things a different way then they can just disagree. When I or any reviewer say something it isnt objective fact its subjective opinion. So what is a good feature for you might be a waste of time to me. But I am allowed to say how I feel and present it how I want. It seems what I do resonates more with consumers than it does with developers but like I said earlier thats a decision I made a long time ago and I am ok with how that has panned out.

-DJ


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## The Darris (Apr 2, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Its worth knowing upfront that you have a relationship with Spitfire that means it would be tough for you to agree with anything I say about them without it being stacked up against your vested interest in keeping on good terms with them (not blacklisted to hell like me haha)....and don't worry i'm not saying you are in their pocket, just that I like knowing which points to give up on because you could never agree to them if you wanted to maintain that relationship



I don't know why you mentioned this other than as a way to imply that I'm worried about my relationship with them. I've been an active user of theirs well before I started Samples Spotlight. I actually don't interact with them (Paul or Christian) personally aside from the support line or with their PR team. I talk with their marketing manager who's actually a 3rd party entity who processes the NFR's (He also does this for a lot of other developers whom I'm on the list for as well). In fact, I don't know if Spitfire actually watches my reviews or not as they don't respond to them or give me feedback. So, no, I don't have any fear of what I say. I am critical about their libraries as both an owner of a lot as well as a holder of a few NFRs. The relationship I do have with them is as a user in my opinion. So, I stand by any criticism I have if I've taken the time to actually understand it's purpose first. After that, I can bash it all I want and not worry if they will black list me because they've not onced challenged my negative criticism, they've usually responded to it with an update. Again, this is all based on my experience with them over the years as a user and reviewer.



Daniel James said:


> Oh I get that I have followers but I don't let that define what I do and don't talk about. Thats one of the reasons people follow me I think, because I just say how I feel. I commented before the live stream they did that I think they might try to do a custom engine and then when they announced they were doing a custom engine I started the topic, because we were already talking about the implications of a new engine in the official thread. I actually created that thread so it wouldn't muddy up their commercial thread. Where I thought they would rather talk about the hype and not the tech. But I wanted to discuss the tech with the community.....which I think is my prerogative on a public forum ABOUT sample libraries and the tech behind them no?



Cool, thanks for clarifying, that makes sense now.



Daniel James said:


> Thats where developers stepping up, as others have in the past and work with me to help figure out why I got something wrong. I have pointed out flaws in products before which the devs saw and fixed in their followups. Because of that I believe doing what I do has a place. There are enough people such as yourself out there doing straight up reviews. I just say how I feel and how it works for me, its up to people watching if they vaule that or not, so far my subscriber base continues to grow (slow as fuck but still) so some must find some value in it. May not be for you, but thats why you do it too!



Again, can't argue with that view point. Just the additional thought of when that happens, there isn't any real fix, much like I've experienced with some of my reviews where I got something wrong but now that video is out there, despite my attempts to add annotations where I reword or say I was wrong, people miss that and will still be misinformed. Albeit, it's a lesser degree of people as I rarely get above a few thousand views, unlike yourself. More people see your mistakes but will never know it was a mistake unless you really own up to it with a future video or whatever but I don't think I've seen something like that from you in the past aside from finding such a moment deep in the comment threads of Facebook or here. Oh well, that's how you are and I can't change that. Nothing wrong with that mindset, just really trying to make sure you are aware of it so you understand why some developers don't send you NFR's anymore. That's all. It was never about you being critical. It had everything to do about you being critical over something you just didn't understand in the first place. You aren't criticizing the aspect of it being confusing, you have made false assumptions and pawn it off onto the developers of the software versus just re-analyzing what you are doing.

Most of what I've just said pretty much covers the rest of your post. It's easy to say it's up to the viewers to decide if you are dumb or it's the design without taking some responsibility. But do you understand that many watching will just take your word for it and if you say something is broken or doesn't work right when it does, that will skew their thoughts.

We aren't trying to sell libraries. That's not what I do this for. I'm just trying to help make informed decisions which is what I believe you are trying to do as well. I'm just telling you why some people disagree with your approach, and probably why some developers don't send you NFR's anymore. Could be other reasons that are more private and not for me or the public to know but what is public, what I've expressed is it. This is coming from Paul within this thread as well as developers who've shared thoughts publicly in the past. I don't keep a record but I do follow the industry and you tend to pick things up like that, as you may already know.

Best,

C


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 2, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> I agree, I do more overviews, first looks, writing a cue with library x. I don't do conventional reviews I would say. I tend to do what most customers will do when they get the library....which seems to be more useful to some people. As people tend not to actually want to read manuals but instead crack it open and see how good it is. Thats what I do.
> 
> -DJ


Sometimes unedited walkthroughs, playthroughs or whathaveyou are more useful because there is no way we have any doubt that you're unbiased. It seems through and through genuine. Sometimes issues arise, glitches happen, or even good, spontaneous things happen. Part of reviewing a product can also be assessing how easy it is to use and pick up. Should something require a rocket science degree to run and use? Maybe I'm that stereotypical "guy" but I absolutely loathe going through manuals (especially when changing wind-shield wipers). I like to use a product and figure out what it does based on the actual changes to each perameter, and how those changes effect the sound. If it won't do what I expect or want after that, then I'll consult the manual. Knobs and such should be labeled too, right? Sure, it's not a requirement, but for me a manuel should be something you go to if you are stuck on something, after you've tried your best to become aquainted with it yourself. If it's too difficult to truly assess a plugin or library's usability or sound without a manual, then that's probably a sign that it's too complicated or combersome. I'm still trying to figure out where reading a manuel will fix a broken legato or some unknown Windows 10 bug.
Why are plugins and libraries getting more and more complicated and grandoise? (not in the "epic" sense of the word grandiose). Seriously, shouldn't it be usable and playable right out of the gate? Do you have presets in this thing? It seems that that would be a standard, and it would be a way to assess the plugin's sound without needing to earn a PHD in some technical field.


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## axb312 (Apr 2, 2018)

Key points I've gathered so far are:

1. Why focus on the softer articulations instead of having a comprehensive palette as I'm sure Mr. Zimmer requires for his movies?
2. Why release an engine without a public beta release first?...a lot of the kinks would've been ironed out before the library was released (hopefully)...
3. Why the inconsistencies with articulations?..
4. Why was the buggy legato let through...why was the pre-order not delayed when this information came out...Even now, the library is being sold at the (hefty) pre-order rate, when these and other bugs exist....
5. Why is the library taking up so much RAM?
6. Why is the engine so resource hungry on Win 10?
7. Why is the library so god damn expensive?
8. Why is there such a steep learning curve with this?
9. Why does it handle shorts so poorly?
10. Why are sample library reviewers doing favors or thinking about doing them for Spitfire?

These are questions gleaned from Daniel's review and other people's comments here on the forum. The articulation focus has been explained as "this is Zimmer's new sound" or something like that. Which is complete Bullshit. Why the hell would a dev let the opportunity to have 344 players play massive string parts and/or cover the entire dynamic range slip through? Seems like a pretty stupid move to me.

Anyhow Q.1 has been answered unsatisfactorily (IMO). The rest have not been answered to far as I can see (working on bug fixes is not the same as answering why the bugs slipped through in the first place). Instead we have people attacking the key proponent of well constructed critique.

Understand that almost every single person who speaks about HZ Strings is interested in using it and the possibilities it could bring to the table. Almost all criticism of this library comes from a deep feeling of disappointment. I don't think someone who has put this much effort into critiquing something and defending his views will do it out of spite.

Yet, we have people saying Spitfire is a big team now, look at the repercussions this will have on them, criticism will hinder their progress blah blah blah...I mean wtf? You release a shit product it deserves to be called shit.

Also this library is not worth anywhere close to 600 USD. When I can get a pretty comprehensive set of articulations and a beautiful sound for 400 USD. Why would I pay 600 USD for this? Worth thinking about? Maybe not for the fine folks on VI-C apparently.

@Daniel James and a few others who I've seen speaking their minds about this library and Spitfire in general...Perhaps VI-C is not the right place for us...


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## vms (Apr 2, 2018)

The Darris said:


> I'm just telling you why a lot of people disagree with your approach


Maybe we should start a poll on it...?
I love Daniel's approach, and I don't think I'm alone.


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## The Darris (Apr 2, 2018)

vms said:


> Maybe we should start a poll on it...?
> I love Daniel's approach, and I don't think I'm alone.


Haha, no. Polls won't really do much when it's about something like this. DJ has a lot of followers and fans at this point. I will edit my post as I should have said, "why SOME people disagree with your approach."


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## kitekrazy (Apr 2, 2018)

reutunes said:


> I've been playing with Hans Zimmer Strings (yes, that again) over the weekend with a view to including a full review in this week's http://thesamplecast.com/ (Samplecast). Quite frankly, it is full of bugs and inconsistencies. So I posed a question on facebook this morning about reviewing buggy libraries straight out of the gate, and the post was met with a wide range of responses. Perhaps the VI Control community would be interested in some of the thoughts? Comments range from...
> 
> _"I’d wait. They are a great company and I’d trust them to put out a timely update."_
> 
> ...




Great to know so if one purchases it anyway you can work around the flaws and not go crazy thinking there is something wrong with my system.


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## Mundano (Apr 2, 2018)

life is full of drama. Don't fear, be quiet. Master your sword! Control, equilibrium, impulse, swing, hits and misses, be calm. Observe yourself, breathe, don't fear, review the library, be friendly, be positiv (inclusive by critiquing), fix the bugs, do your work, do your homework, keep growing, respect the others... breathe.

Peace


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## bvaughn0402 (Apr 2, 2018)

I appreciate all this dialogue personally. Because all it will do is ultimately make the product better.

DJ, thanks always for your reviews, because I do feel you are the one person who is going to be brutally honest about a product (not that others aren't, but if you paid for it personally, it does open up more doors of honesty). I don't always agree with you, or more so there are things that might annoy you that don't really bother me ... but man oh man, have I ever benefited from watching you interact with it.

So I'm sure it might be disheartening to lose a NFR relationship ... but gotta say, I would choose you reviewing a product you paid for any day of the week. (That isn't a slam on Samplecast either ... I appreciate and watch those reviews too!!).

Funny, although people quote you as being negative about HZ Strings, I actually bought this BECAUSE of your review! Because you did brag at times over the lushness of sounds, and I just really liked what I heard. Maybe I only watched 2 hours out of 5, but I thought you were fair and often complementary, while pointing out things that were odd or bad.

As an aside (non DJ focus), it must actually be quite good for Spitfire. Because look at ALL the posts in this, and like 4 other threads talking about this ONE library. Sure, it may not all be good ... but you can't PAY for that kind of advertisement and publicity! Weeks before ... weeks after ... and pull down "Latest Posts" here, and most likely 2-3 different threads of HZ String posts will be in the top 10.

If I was Spitfire, I wouldn't worry about the small debates. Just dig in, listen to what customers are saying, and fix it ... or improve it. Be proactive and just take it to the next level now. Silence the critics, not with arguments, but with taking a REALLY good product, and making it great.

Spitfire is a great company. I believe they listen to their customers and will fix any such issues over time.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 2, 2018)

Hell, I'm thinking about buying HZ Strings just so I can say I have the library that stirred up so much shit.


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## bvaughn0402 (Apr 2, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Hell, I'm thinking about buying HZ Strings just so I can say I have the library that stirred up so much shit.



Exactly ... :D


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## Johann F. (Apr 2, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> If I am ignorant to something, then usually the product didn't make that feature/function clear enough



HA! that doesn't make any sense. No Daniel, you can't blame others for your lack of comprehension. It almost feels like you are trying to spread FUD. Maybe you didn't like that Spitfire stopped giving you NFRs or Paul ignored your attempt to create more controversy. The Jerry Springer Show, VI edition. It’s your name at the top for weeks, thousands of views and that sweet exposure. I understand their choice to ignore you, after all, it's easy to see that behind that "I'm only trying to help and happy to be proven wrong" banner, there's a guy who likes to repeat himself like an echo chamber over and over and over until the other part gives up in exhaustion. Here's an example: even though Spitfire was 100% transparent and gave us a manual with all articulations, demos and walkthroughs weeks prior to the release, still you insistently questioned the sound of the library. Your own misconception of the “Hans Zimmer brand”, as you like to call. Pages and pages of “where’s Pirates, Batman and Gladiator?” to the point that the man himself had to step in and basically say “dude, you are tripping balls”. Not fair to put him in such a delicate and vulnerable spot, like he was some sort of one trick pony.

If you really want to help this community, you should be the first to set the example and show how important is to know your virtual instruments. This is not a toy, this is a professional tool. I know it’s your channel, your viewers, but if you want to be taken seriously out of your safe space, consider behaving like a professional. And by that I don’t mean the potty mouth thing, I couldn’t care less about that, I mean preparing yourself better instead of taking the easy way out by saying you are recreating the average Joe experience. There’s nothing wrong about reading the fucking manual, it’s there for a reason. I bet if they saw Daniel James engaged in extracting the most out of the product they paid $800 for, your 5 hour video would be much more useful than it actually is. Again, you have a great opportunity to educate people, so why not do it?



Daniel James said:


> they can make sure to make things more obvious... its like in video games people didn't know where to go sometimes so developers started putting lights over door that you can enter, you can always imply to a user how something works in various ways



Fair enough, but how about practicing what you preach? For example, you kept questioning and ridiculing Spitfire's choice of including a "bottle mic position", it was a recurring gag during your review. The thing is, Spitfire did include an info box at the bottom left corner explaining exactly what the bottle mic does and either you chose to ignore it, or you were too focused in bashing the library for the sake of it.

While I agree that a $800 product tested for 5 months (according to Paul) shouldn't have those nasty legatos or Win 10 breaking bugs, I think you are blowing issues way out of proportion. Shit happens, you should know better as a dev yourself. And the mob mentality here is just sad to see.


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## JohnG (Apr 2, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> I think Paul is being massively restrained. Sorry to swim against the tide.



I agree. Paul is very restrained, considering.

Even HZ himself has come on and more or less told DJ he's wrong with the approach he took. I agree -- DJ missed the boat. This library is very subtle, very complicated to get to understand well, and yet we see DJ's hasty, rushed effort to thrash around (interminably) and decide that, because it doesn't meet his preconceived notions, it's somehow misleading / not "really" Hans. 

To keep posting the same negative comments over and over in every thread on v.i. that mentions this library in my view is troll-ish. Especially when the number one composer in the industry has (graciously) told you that you off base.

I'm less gracious maybe, but after spending some days paddling around in this library and realising that, even after days of working with it, I'm just getting to understand it a bit, I definitely think that you have completely missed the point. I've been using it in a project for which it is actually perfect -- wish I'd had it from the start.

Among other things, having the different mic positions -- and the large number of alternative sections -- is magic. As is the ability to float the softer articulations behind the regular ones.

As Hans has written, the advantage of samples is to be able to do something you can't do with a live orchestra alone. I think this library fulfills that in some very interesting ways. It does not have an exhaustive set of articulations, but really, I don't think I need that. We have those already; this is something special and allows a lot of innovation.

Your review makes you sound like a Johnny One Note composer who thinks "epic" comes from a single finger on a single sound. It doesn't. It comes from a subtle approach to the whole engine that is the orchestra and samples and technology.

Just because you have the best players in Los Angeles or London, it isn't necessarily going to be John Williams or Mahler's 5th. You have all this pesky orchestration and knowledge you have to have to get there.

Similarly, thrashing through, within one day of release, a library this elaborate is risky and hasty. Then you adopt the tactics I remember from Hollywood Strings, insinuating that any contradiction represents a personal attack on you, or that there is bias, or that you are the one who tells it like it is -- you tell it as you see it and are so overconfident that you think your opinion is the best.

And when called out you retreat and say "but, it's only a first look, not a review." Five and a half hours not a review? Give me a break.

I think the library offers enormous creative potential and range and look forward to using it for a long time. The samples are clean and the controls are easy to figure out even without looking at the manual -- except maybe the volume slider, upper right. Didn't see that at first.

Kind regards,

John


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

Johann F. said:


> HA! that doesn't make any sense. No Daniel, you can't blame others for your lack of comprehension. It almost feels like you are trying to spread FUD. Maybe you didn't like that Spitfire stopped giving you NFRs or Paul ignored your attempt to create more controversy. The Jerry Springer Show, VI edition. It’s your name at the top for weeks, thousands of views and that sweet exposure. I understand their choice to ignore you, after all, it's easy to see that behind that "I'm only trying to help and happy to be proven wrong" banner, there's a guy who likes to repeat himself like an echo chamber over and over and over until the other part gives up in exhaustion. Here's an example: even though Spitfire was 100% transparent and gave us a manual with all articulations, demos and walkthroughs weeks prior to the release, still you insistently questioned the sound of the library. Your own misconception of the “Hans Zimmer brand”, as you like to call. Pages and pages of “where’s Pirates, Batman and Gladiator?” to the point that the man himself had to step in and basically say “dude, you are tripping balls”. Not fair to put him in such a delicate and vulnerable spot, like he was some sort of one trick pony.
> 
> If you really want to help this community, you should be the first to set the example and show how important is to know your virtual instruments. This is not a toy, this is a professional tool. I know it’s your channel, your viewers, but if you want to be taken seriously out of your safe space, consider behaving like a professional. And by that I don’t mean the potty mouth thing, I couldn’t care less about that, I mean preparing yourself better instead of taking the easy way out by saying you are recreating the average Joe experience. There’s nothing wrong about reading the fucking manual, it’s there for a reason. I bet if they saw Daniel James engaged in extracting the most out of the product they paid $800 for, your 5 hour video would be much more useful than it actually is. Again, you have a great opportunity to educate people, so why not do it?
> 
> ...



To quote from a nice article: http://bokardo.com/principles-of-user-interface-design/

*"Clarity is job #1*
Clarity is the first and most important job of any interface. To be effective using an interface you've designed, people must be able to recognize what it is, care about why they would use it, understand what the interface is helping them interact with, predict what will happen when they use it, and then successfully interact with it. While there is room for mystery and delayed gratification in interfaces, there is no room for confusion. Clarity inspires confidence and leads to further use. One hundred clear screens is preferable to a single cluttered one."

Also I think you misunderstand what an echo chamber is. Thats when lots of people who all have the same opinion talk about that subject then just agree with each other without a dissenting voice. What you are referencing is my tenacity to make sure what I am saying is not being misrepresented by responding to any post or comment that didn't get what I was saying or implying I said something other than I did. I am just debating the point, I have conseeded on some things (if you care to read) and am trying to find middle ground with everyone involved.

And to your other point no I am not spiteful towards companies that don't send me NFR's, there are many companies who don't want to deal with my honesty but I still talk about their libraries and we have good honest discourse. Something I am all for!

If you really want to have the conversation about brands again send me a PM or go read the pages where I explain all about brands, public perception of them and how they can be interpreted. For example _because _it was called Hans Zimmer Strings I thought that was going to somehow sound like Hans Zimmer...or at least the Hans Zimmer I know. But I admitted that was my misunderstanding nd going forward I know that Hans Zimmer on Spitfire product doesnt mean it will sound like Hans Zimmer. You see we moved forward on a subject though civil discourse.

Haha haven't you seen me debating here???, haven't you seen me countless times call people and companies out for things I disagree with??? how can that be considered 'retiring to my safe space' ....It sounds like you may have been spending too much time indulging yourself in 'Facebook Political Debates' its all name calling and anger with you isnt it XD

And mate...for this kind of product I am the average Joe....no one who doesnt work in the audio field is impulse buying Hans Zimmer Strings out of the blue. So I am their audience, a composer. There are no composers out there who know every single aspect of every single product they own for their work so to say I am any less professional because I happen to not get every aspect of every library ever delivered to me is a bit of a stretch.

I do know my libraries pretty well, I work without a template and I know what does what. I have done in depth overviews of quite a few libraries by this point so you can see the level to which I dig into them. I also make them so I have a fair idea how they work too. I have spent time looking into and discussing things like UI design, human psychology and the ways people interact with things both visually and sonically...its something of a hobby for me. So knowing how deep I dive into libraries and the things I have learned about the way customers interact with UI's from both a developer and customer side.... I genuinely do believe that if I missed something in one of the many overviews I have done it is more the fault of the UI for not making it clear what I should do to make something work than it is me just being amateur. 

Your whole post seems like its coming from pure anger rather than actually wanting to have a rational chat about any of this. There is a thread which is over 20 pages and I have a video of over 5 hours. If you don't get my position by now thats on you mate. If you don't like what I say or the way I do them, don't keep watching me. You really don't have to if it causes you so much angst. Like I say, I am free to do these things how I want to, and I present them as fair open and honest as I can. If you disagree with a point thats fine, but I don't have to agree with your disagreement. 

I feel I am doing my bit to help the community! I jump in and help out where its relevant, I do composition livestreams an hours and hours of sample library reviews/vlogs/interviews on Youtube. What are you contributing? because if you are implying I don't care about helping the community you are very wrong mate. Life would be much more relaxing if I didn't care about composing and composers so much xD (I'd definitely sleep more)

Also don't get all aggressive and then scream mob mentality. There are plenty of people on both sides of these healthy debates. Don't start crying victim just to stop people talking.

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

JohnG said:


> I agree. Paul is very restrained, considering.



Oh come on and why is that John? because people didn't like his latest product? I can't find a point where things were so aggressive towards him he had to _hold back. _



JohnG said:


> Even HZ himself has come on and more or less told DJ he's wrong with the approach he took. I agree -- DJ missed the boat. This library is very subtle, very complicated to get to understand well, and yet we see DJ's hasty, rushed effort to thrash around (interminably) and decide that, because it doesn't meet his preconceived notions, it's somehow misleading / not "really" Hans.



What was rushed? the bit where I opened the library and went through every sound live for 5 hours, a 5 hour scenario many composers will experience if they buy it? I wanted to share that experience with my live audience and community, Of course it was going to be my first impressions and feelings towards it, not an in depth review....thats why its called a first look. And yeah the library didn't live up to my expectations, a discussion we have had at length....but the good thing about opinions is that we can have them and people can disagree. The world keeps turning.



JohnG said:


> To keep posting the same negative comments over and over in every thread on v.i. that mentions this library in my view is troll-ish. Especially when the number one composer in the industry has (graciously) told you that you off base.



I was off base on one aspect which I conceded to, still doesn't change my initial impression, just my perspective on the brand Hans Zimmer going forward. Everything else we are still discussing. And I keep repeating myself on certain things because people mischaracterise what I am trying to say....lots of "oh you say x so what you mean is y" and I have to repeat it to tell them "no I mean x'



JohnG said:


> I'm less gracious maybe, but after spending some days paddling around in this library and realising that, even after days of working with it, I'm just getting to understand it a bit, I definitely think that you have completely missed the point. I've been using it in a project for which it is actually perfect -- wish I'd had it from the start.



I'm using it also, I paid for it. And if you watch the video John, and I assume you havn't because your ignorance to my position is clear....I actually like the library. The sounds in it are useable and creative. That doesn't change that I was initially disappointed for not getting what I thought I was getting (something many in all the posts and comments on the video seem to agree with me on). But I can still appreciate what is there. But I will be honest I have been using it pretty much since it came out too and lets not kid ourselves its not super deep beyond what you first play. The mic positions are cool and change the sounds in interesting ways (as most libs with mic positions do), but beyond that what 'depth' have you discovered that you didn't know the first few times you hit a key. People keep talking about this mysterious learning curve with HZS which I seemingly havn't hit yet. The only learning cuve I found at all is trying to remember which section had which articulation.



JohnG said:


> Your review makes you sound like a Johnny One Note composer who thinks "epic" comes from a single finger on a single sound. It doesn't. It comes from a subtle approach to the whole engine that is the orchestra and samples and technology.



Still not a reviewer John its a first look. Its labelled as such, people watch it as such. Its video designed to discuss what its like using it out of the box. There will be reviews coming, but my first look was live, and honest, and withness by hundreds of people...its hard to be fake in that sort of scrutiny. So if you disagree thats fine but if I did something 'wrong' come to a live show and point it out!



JohnG said:


> Similarly, thrashing through, within one day of release, a library this elaborate is risky and hasty. Then you adopt the tactics I remember from Hollywood Strings, insinuating that any contradiction represents a personal attack on you, or that there is bias, or that you are the one who tells it like it is -- you tell it as you see it and are so overconfident that you think your opinion is the best



John point to the bit where I am claiming I am being attacked personally. No really please. Well other than the line where Paul tried to dig out an email exchange quote to undermine my position. Which did feel like an attack. I think you will actually find that I am saying I am ok with people disagreeing with me and I am happy to debate their reasoning, which is why these threads are long. The only people claim ATTACKS are on the Spitfire side. No one is attacking Spitfire here. We are discussing a product, issues with it (be that bugs or peoples misconceptions) and in this thread the ethics of compensated review. What is this attack you speak of, you have all these notions in your head about what are going on but they don't match with the reality of the actually quite polite interactions most are having.



JohnG said:


> And when called out you retreat and say "but, it's only a first look, not a review." Five and a half hours not a review? Give me a break.



What did I do in the video though John. I opened it up, the looked at the content, for the first time ever, while on livestream with an audience....thats a first look. Reviews tend to be more thorough, I never labelled it as a review, I labelled it a first look. Because it was just that, my initial out of the box impressions and feelings. Im allowed to make a first look if I want. If you then go and watch my first look expecting a review you will be disappointed.....like I was when a library that said Hans Zimmer on it didn't sound particularly Hans Zimmer-ish. Funny how misconceptions can mess with our perceptions like that huh  I conceded under that logic about what the Hans Zimmer brands mean. Maybe you should with this notion you have that I do reviews, even when I clearly label something first look.



JohnG said:


> I think the library offers enormous creative potential and range and look forward to using it for a long time. The samples are clean and the controls are easy to figure out even without looking at the manual -- except maybe the volume slider, upper right. Didn't see that at first.



Me too. I really do think you have it twisted in your mind where I actually stand on this library. I love it. I love it, as a string library. I just didn't like it as a Hans Zimmer String library because at the time of doing my first look my impression of what Hans Zimmer met was different than what it means after having these discussions. If I did a review of it later down the line I would mention that fact. But as it stands that was a record of my initial feeling towards the library and I still absolutely support what I said, many others had similar misconceptions of what the library would be about too (just read the comments or threads if you need proof) but thats ok, I learned through these debates what Hans Zimmer on a product means going forward.

But anyways John you always seem to pop up when I get involved in debates on the opposite side. Usually not particularly happy with me either...its been this way since East West PLAY. I don't expect it to change and you clearly don't like the way I am as a person. You should probably just ignore me here. Because I genuinely don't think we are going to meet much common ground. Sometimes it feels like we are just arguing for the sake of it. I have said like 99% of what I have in this post multiple times already XD

-DJ


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## NoamL (Apr 2, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Your review makes you sound like a Johnny One Note composer who thinks "epic" comes from a single finger on a single sound... You have all this pesky orchestration and knowledge you have to have to get there.









Saying DJ lacks chops? That's enough VI-C bullshit for a couple days.


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## Jay Panikkar (Apr 2, 2018)




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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Saying DJ lacks chops? That's enough VI-C bullshit for a couple days.



I feel like John has an idea of who I am in his head that doesn't quite match the reality. He is mostly just angry whenever I speak xD Its all good though he did have some decent talking points in there. I am used to being mischaracterised, thats why I respond so much, to make sure people don't infer I am saying something I'm not. In reference to the bit you quoted about my being Johnny One note, I get the feeling he watched that one little 2 miniute clip someone made of my 5 hour first look and is basing everything on that one moment which was over the top for comedic effect. Context matters.

-DJ


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## tehreal (Apr 2, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Oh no I get it (I used to program games as a kid haha) I'm just saying that the legato script is broken in such an overt way that whatever they changed at the last second must have been significant enough to warrant one final check.
> 
> If you are changing code at the last second that has the potential to break something else important, you check what it might have broken.
> 
> ...



He definitely gets it. The industry calls it Regression Testing. I'm guessing DJ just calls it common sense (which it is).


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## BradHoyt (Apr 2, 2018)

tehreal said:


> He definitely gets it. The industry calls it Regression Testing. I'm guessing DJ just calls it common sense (which it is).


Actually, smoke testing would be the most accurate term. Smoke tests can be performed quickly and cover overall basic functionality while regression testing is more detailed and time consuming for the QA team. I'd say a legato test would fall under basic functionality while batteries of regression tests, being more focused on specific aspects of a program, website, etc could easily miss basic functionality in other areas... Also, why am I commenting on software testing (the last thing I want to think about) at midnight when I should be going to bed and getting some sleep? lol Probably the same reason why I have arguments in comment sections about why The Last Jedi has some serious flaws with Lucasfilm apologists.... YES - I need a break from the internet. Cheers.


----------



## tehreal (Apr 2, 2018)

BradHoyt said:


> Actually, smoke testing would be the most accurate term. Smoke tests can be performed quickly and cover overall basic functionality while regression testing is more detailed and time consuming for the QA team. I'd say a legato test would fall under basic functionality while batteries of regression tests, being more focused on specific aspects of a program, website, etc could easily miss basic functionality in other areas... Also, why am I commenting on software testing (the last thing I want to think about) at midnight when I should be going to bed and getting some sleep? lol Probably the same reason why I have arguments in comment sections about why The Last Jedi has some serious flaws with Lucasfilm apologists.... YES - I need a break from the internet. Cheers.



Yep, you're right. Legato would make it a smoke test. Regardless if it's smoke, sanity or regression... gotta test!

I want to make a joke here about my own sanity being tested but I'm too exhausted to think one.


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## robgb (Apr 2, 2018)

This question alone has saved me $600. Thank you.

By the way, if you don't review it as is, I won't consider you a reliable reviewer.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 2, 2018)

I find it surprising how much fear there seems to be to speak up when it involves the "wrong people".


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## mc_deli (Apr 3, 2018)

babylonwaves said:


> no, that doesn't make it a review. where I come from, a serious review always includes research and at least reading the manual. if you read a review in Sound On Sound or any other serious publication, a lot of time has been put into it. this includes a dialog with the manufacturer of the product, not necessarily to sweeten up the review but to get the facts right. the dialog is necessary to get things right. it's a fact check. what daniel did is not a review, it is a first look at something new. like a blog of his unfiltered thoughts when he checks it out the first time.


OT... I've been an SOS reader since the early 90s (biscuit please) and I think I have counted three negative reviews in that time! Whenever I buy a piece of hardware I always ask if I can get a discount based on all the copies of SOS I have piled up on the stairs!

Back closer to topic. FFS VI-c needs a bit of cleaning up at this point. There is an awful lot of not helping musicians going on. The actual useful info about e.g. Performance of the new Spitfire plug in on different systems is lost in this sea of BS. IMHO of course.


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## robgb (Apr 3, 2018)

Jeez. Just went back and read this thread and Daniel James is spot on, while Mr. Thompson has made me never want to buy a spitfire product again. Dude, why are you even commenting?


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## acomposer (Apr 3, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> I feel like John has an idea of who I am in his head that doesn't quite match the reality. He is mostly just angry whenever I speak xD Its all good though he did have some decent talking points in there. I am used to being mischaracterised, thats why I respond so much, to make sure people don't infer I am saying something I'm not. In reference to the bit you quoted about my being Johnny One note, I get the feeling he watched that one little 2 miniute clip someone made of my 5 hour first look and is basing everything on that one moment which was over the top for comedic effect. Context matters.
> 
> -DJ



DJ - I have to say...

I am sure you're immensely talented and a lovely guy in person. However, considering the ridiculous amount of time you've spent on this issue, it does rather come across as:

1) You've got a bit of an 'agenda' maybe. The 'sticking the boot in / but I'm just being honest and they're all lovely and I just wanna be mates' approach isn't fooling everyone.

2) You're somewhat obsessed. You remind me of Chief Inspector Dreyfus in the Pink Panther films. He was a tad fixated too.

Maybe I'm wrong but that's how you come across. Imagine how many trailers you could have knocked out in this time.

It's all getting rather silly I think. Move on dude. It's not life or death.

It's some software.

Version 1.0


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Apr 3, 2018)

I mean you can say about Daniels music that you like it or not, and although this is not at all my cup of tea what he composes, I think he does what he does pretty well and better than most of the stuff I have seen here on a regular base in the members composition section. John G mentioned this one note thing and epic. That was at least how I understood it from Daniel not the point at all. He was mentioning that instruments for instance recorded in 8vas like DB + Cellos will sound always better and more realistic then layering 2 single patches recorded separately. (which has a couple of reasons which is another topic and not important here) But I wouldn´t put that into this category of instant gratification at all, because I do things like that as well just because I know how to orchestrate and I am using certain strongs of libraries where they recorded such things either in unison or octaves when available to beef up my tracks. And surerly a Hans Zimmer library would have benefit from such patches because they are also the meat and grind of at least some of HZ more epic famous compositions. And knowing that you can layer DB / Cellos in octaves is by the way an absolute "beginners skillset" in orchestration for me so I wouldn´t label such technique as excuisite at all. Maybe that still can impress some people.


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## robgb (Apr 3, 2018)

chillbot said:


> Oh man I wish it worked like that.
> 
> For what it's worth I pay over 50% taxes here in the US, but let's call it an even 50%.
> 
> ...


You need a new accountant.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 3, 2018)

This is all so Northern Sounds-or at least it will be if Mike G. shuts it down (which I’d guess he’s too smart to do, though I could see him asking for a bit of calm.)


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## Rctec (Apr 3, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> I feel like John has an idea of who I am in his head that doesn't quite match the reality. He is mostly just angry whenever I speak xD Its all good though he did have some decent talking points in there. I am used to being mischaracterised, thats why I respond so much, to make sure people don't infer I am saying something I'm not. In reference to the bit you quoted about my being Johnny One note, I get the feeling he watched that one little 2 miniute clip someone made of my 5 hour first look and is basing everything on that one moment which was over the top for comedic effect. Context matters.
> 
> -DJ



And now you know how I’m feeling. I am a “Johnny one note”. Well, ok, two...If you listened...



It’s strings...But they are really, really quiet.


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## jononotbono (Apr 3, 2018)

Rctec said:


> And now you know how I’m feeling. I am a “Johnny one note”. Well, ok, two...If you listened...
> 
> 
> 
> It’s strings...But they are really, really quiet.




You did choose two of the good one's though.


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## Rapollo (Apr 3, 2018)

acomposer said:


> DJ - I have to say...
> 
> I am sure you're immensely talented and a lovely guy in person. However, considering the ridiculous amount of time you've spent on this issue, it does rather come across as:
> 
> ...



You might read DJ coming across that way. I don't at all. His "agenda" is honesty as a paying customer.

I personally feel like "reviews" these days (even in Sound on Sound) just avoid the negatives or pussy foot around them to keep good relations and standings with the developers. They might mention a con or two in brief but like the saying "if you've got nothing positive to say, say nothing" is an ATTEMPT at being honest and leaving information out. Not everyone can just lay down £550+ for a niche string library. It's good to know the sound is of HZ's most recent, not his most classic. I got great clarification on this through DJ's efforts, more so than the demo's and walk-throughs. Developer demo's only EVER show strengths.

As a quote from the stream video on the flautando's or whatever: there is quiet, and there is taking the piss.

There is a reason these threads get heated, not just someone attempting to cause a stir.


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## stixman (Apr 3, 2018)

Listen Daniel has earned his position which I know for a fact holds more esteem and in higher regard than sf tbh I will always consider Daniel’s opinion above any developer period so those attacking Daniel keep digging a hole for yourselves! Btw I have spent thousands on sf libraries but I don’t think I will bother with them in the future!


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 3, 2018)

acomposer said:


> Imagine how many trailers you could have knocked out in this time. It's all getting rather silly I think. Move on dude. It's not life or death. It's some software.


Ouch. But not for DJ, for me. 
That hits home. For the amount of time I've spent enjoying these threads, I could have earned the money to pay for the damn library in the first place.

Point noted. Laters guys.


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## asinclaire (Apr 3, 2018)

ITT: People shitting on Daniel James without having watched his video. 5 hours might be long but if you want to throw criticism, make sure you know what you're talking about. 

You guys are reviewing a movie without watching it first. Watch the damn video.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Apr 3, 2018)

Well, Daniel James makes very critical and honest reviews (yeah I know, first looks !) without taking 15min to "read the fucking manual" so I guess people have the right to take part in this discussion without "watching the fucking 5 hours video" 

Just kidding, but still.... *runs fast*


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 3, 2018)

BradHoyt said:


> Luckily faulty legato isn't as deadly as missing spark plugs......


I'm not sure a missing spark plug would be deadly either...I mean, maybe for the engine


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## acomposer (Apr 3, 2018)

Rapollo said:


> You might read DJ coming across that way. I don't at all. His "agenda" is honesty as a paying customer.



Yes, I do get that. But he goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on...

Saying the same thing. I am not sure what he said in his 50th post on the subject that he didn't say in the vid or in the first few posts. *Yes DJ, we understand your issues! *

To keep posting thousands of words, on the same subject, saying the same thing, agreeing with the people that agree with you...

...well, I mean, that's just - imo - a little strange. Does he do this with every product he reviews? Is he OCD with other developers?

If he writes this much regarding other developers' products then I will concede I am speaking out of turn.


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## Musicam (Apr 3, 2018)

I have only question to say: Spitfire makes his products with peace and love. If any product has a bug, they will fix. Spitfire is a great great company that offer us his contact, his knowdlege, his passion for the art. I have their libraries and I have the sound. I wait now the choir and much, much. The dedication of Mr. THomson for making samples, the concept and the philosophy of Mr. Henson, all the team, Oliver, Homay, etc. 

And the price of the products, the royalties for the musicians, the Air Studios, the mastering engineers, the videos of youtube, the channel of Mr. Henson.

LOVE, PEACE AND MUSIC. 

This is my opinion. I am a little a loyal customer. Thanks!


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## Stephen Baysted (Apr 3, 2018)

Remarkable as it may seem, I never look at or read sample library reviews or indeed waste days on end watching twitch streams or You Tuber's pontifications.  I haven't posted on here for a few years now, but thought I'd swing by and see what all the fuss was about while printing interminable stems and having a coffee or two ... 

FWIW, I've been very happily using HZ strings on a TV series for the past 4 days or so. Not noticed many issues at all and certainly none that are show stoppers or have prevented me from working at full speed. So far I'm mightily impressed with the library: it has some absolutely stellar sounds and sublime textures; it seems extremely flexible (not quite as much bite low down in the celli and basses as the bespoke symphonic strings do), but then it has far more subtlety, warmth and weight where it really counts. As such it fits really nicely into my template and I'm looking forward to delving deeper into it as time progresses. The new software engine (they surely have to call it Merlin!) is seriously easy to use (love the resizing and patch selection). With sensible mic counts (as John G mentions above) it seems pretty light on resources - with all the Spitfire stuff I tend to use 'tree' and a little bit of 'close' if I need more focus, and maybe a touch of 'amb' too on shorts. With my game developer hat on for a moment, and knowing how software is developed, I'm really impressed they managed to get the new engine out of the gates and in such a good working state (remember PLAY anyone?). 

£599 or whatever the price was is IMHO great value for what is going to be a mightily fine weapon in the palette in the years to come. Back in 2011, like a fair few chaps and chapesses, I paid a *hell* of a lot more for the Bespoke Strings and still use them every single day, so the ROI has been excellent. I don't doubt HZS will be similar in that regard. 

It looks like my post has turned into a sample library review, it wasn't meant to but I just wanted to call it as I see it. For the record, the only thing I've received free of charge from Spitfire has been a case of beer when apparently I was the first to order the Percussion library however long ago that was now. 

Anyway, back to the bloody stems. Oh and who is this Hans Zimmer geezer anyway? Never heard of him.


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## DavidY (Apr 3, 2018)

BradHoyt said:


> Actually, smoke testing would be the most accurate term. Smoke tests can be performed quickly and cover overall basic functionality while regression testing is more detailed and time consuming for the QA team. I'd say a legato test would fall under basic functionality while batteries of regression tests, being more focused on specific aspects of a program, website, etc could easily miss basic functionality in other areas...


Curse you for making me wonder whether I agree how you'd classify this sort of testing and how one would do it!

I was leaning towards it being Regression, especially if there was a way to apply some sort of fancy automated testing scripts to it. You could argue it either way though.

(For instance regression test software could play a certain file with (musical) automation and evaluate if the waveform is identical to the last version of the code, assuming the sound wasn't expected to change.)

It's not trivial to set up this sort of thing though.

Also regression testing doesn't address the issue of the multiplicity of possible Windows computer configurations out there.


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## Vanni (Apr 3, 2018)

This is going out of proportion imho...Spitfire is a for profit company full of great hard working talents that has often produced very high quality products. As in any company, some products are better than others.

And yes, their marketing is way, way, way more “advanced” than what’s typical for “professional softwares” companies, who often have very basic / none marketing skills. Just look at the 1990s websites of many competitors.
But they’re not lying or doing anything morally questioning: they’re just legitimately trying to sell as many as possible of their products, and we consumers are legitimately deciding whether to buy them or not. Information is pretty fluid these days, it’s not like we have to blindly trust to letter whatever anybody claims.

By the way, I think it’s pretty telling someone like HZ choose to partner with them. I highly, highly, doubt it’s a money decision, I would imagine is something more like a hobby/passion for him, and I don’t think the man would be willing to work with anybody less than top talented hard working guys.


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 3, 2018)

JohnG said:


> I think the library offers enormous creative potential
> John



Behold, the epic potential of farts!



Edit: I think I was just a couple days late on this video.


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## tehreal (Apr 3, 2018)

Stephen Baysted said:


> Remarkable as it may seem, I never look at or read sample library reviews or indeed waste days on end watching twitch streams or You Tuber's pontifications.
> 
> [...]



Thanks for chiming in. I'm curious, if you don't read/view library reviews, how do you decide whether or not to buy a certain library?


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## Stephen Baysted (Apr 3, 2018)

tehreal said:


> Thanks for chiming in. I'm curious, if you don't read/view library reviews, how do you decide whether or not to buy a certain library?



I don't tend to buy as many libraries these days as I did (I have far too many already!) and I'm very much into hardware (synths/outboard and recording as much live as I can), but it's either word of mouth or company's email about what's just about to be released, or the specific requirements of a project. I'll then think, do I need it, will it fit in with my template, have I got the time to muck around with it, or can I do without it. That sort of thing.


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## tehreal (Apr 3, 2018)

Vanni said:


> [...] By the way, I think it’s pretty telling someone like HZ choose to partner with them. I highly, highly, doubt it’s a money decision, I would imagine is something more like a hobby/passion for him [...]



I would agree it's not about money with Hans. If I had to guess, it would be about hobby/passion as you say, creating tools he feels would be useful to him and others, and getting his musicians more work.


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## jamwerks (Apr 3, 2018)

I don't think HZ using SF has anything to do with hobbies. As HZ has said these are tools for his own professional use and he collaborates with SF to make them for him. And selling them also publicly reduces his costs.

When you add up the costs of the musicians, studio, editing, etc that's too expensive to pay for by himself.


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## Johann F. (Apr 3, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> To quote from a nice article: http://bokardo.com/principles-of-user-interface-design/
> 
> *"Clarity is job #1*
> Clarity is the first and most important job of any interface. To be effective using an interface you've designed, people must be able to recognize what it is, care about why they would use it, understand what the interface is helping them interact with, predict what will happen when they use it, and then successfully interact with it. While there is room for mystery and delayed gratification in interfaces, there is no room for confusion. Clarity inspires confidence and leads to further use. One hundred clear screens is preferable to a single cluttered one."
> ...



No, an echo chamber is exactly what I meant. What you are referring to is called a hug box.

So for the sake of transparency:

You spamming the forum and spreading FUD for weeks = the hero this community needs.
Me pointing out your questionable behavior = angry and irrational.
Paul pointing out your questionable behavior = passive aggressive.
John pointing out your questionable behavior = misjudging you as a person.

Curious how you are ok with putting others under the microscope but can't take a little critique yourself. No one is angry at you. Come on Daniel, lose the argument, not the person.

There's a big difference between not getting every aspect of a library and overlooking some basic features, then blaming the developer. My "bottle" argument, that you chose to ignore, is the perfect example of your lack of commitment and biased approach. Even with your casual "first look" format, I think you should show some professional courtesy and put a little effort in it, otherwise you will be just another kid on Youtube banging keys and making fart jokes. This goes beyond your expectations and the instant gratification aspect of a new library. It's about being fair to your peers. Yes, even those who don't give you NFRs. 

Bugs are an unfortunate aspect of every software development. One should judge a company on how they handle such issues. That's common sense. I bet you had your share of bug reports with HybridTwo, so you should know better. During the weeks prior to release, you were very vocal about your concerns regarding the new player and subtly tried to draw a connection between HZS and EastWest's Play initial state, lacking any sort of evidence or basis for critical thinking. FUD 101 right there.

You talk about accountability but you should also be accountable for what you spread around the web. It only takes a few misinformations repeated dozens of times (!!!) to create the illusion of truth. And that could seriously hurt Spitfire in the long run. The Eric Whitacre choir is just around the corner. Again, those guys are not corporate assholes deliberately trying to screw us, they are one of us, hard working composers. Yes we give our money to them and yes they should deliver, but you are blowing things way out of proportion to fit your agenda. I hope you are enjoying the free traffic. 

To sum it up, here's a video of someone who chose to create something out of nothing, released one day after your "first look" went live. Same tools, same time frame. I'll let the video do the talking:


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## Johann F. (Apr 3, 2018)

@reutunes, looking forward to your thoughts on HZS! I'd prefer a zero-day review, but if Spitfire releases a fix before you finish your video, it would be nice to have a small addendum comparing both states of the library.

I appreciate your work and unbiased opinion. You coming here to ask just shows how much you care about delivering meaningful content instead of more digital noise. Respect!


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## Dr Belasco (Apr 3, 2018)

I like addendums. And Tontines.


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## ghandizilla (Apr 3, 2018)

I'm just under the impression Daniel was looking for a certain old fashioned Hans Zimmer sound. And though HZ has moved on to other soundscapes (which I find great), Daniel has a point: when you market something with this name, a fair amount of consumers will go after that sound, and could be disappointed, even angry given the price.

So, in one hand, the legato bug thing has been overdramatized, but for sure, such an obvious glitch on a release doesn't give a good impression, it _has to_ be mentioned. In another hand, it seems important to have walkthroughs such as the one DJ did, to alert consumers about what they will get and most of all: what they will _not_ get. This is really appreciable, and I do support DJ for taking on his time to make it. I also find what he says about the GUI fair: it takes too much space, in my workflow it would not be practical at all. Nevertheless, it's a young GUI, it was evidently challenging, time-and-money-consuming to make this new sampler a reality, we can't blame Spitfire for not getting everything right on the first strike.

Too bad it has taken the "did you stop asking me reviewing because of my honesty" road: these assertions can not be checked, so it will not help anyone going down that road.


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## blougui (Apr 3, 2018)

Calling DJ a non-professional is an _abus de langage _or a total misconception of who he really is - and it's not the random kid on YT, mind you. Several trailer placements, feature film for Disney, recording his own music at AIR Lyndhurst, producing a commercial serie of sample hybrid instruments...Man, I'ld like to be as un-professional as he is !

What I see is rather a very talkative person, passionate and somewhat narcissic - I guess you have to when you ready to spend more than 5 hours filming yourself in front of your screen, "chatting" orally with people who write on a chat box. And to intervene on almost every HZS related thread for the sake of being sure no one infere who he really is or is not, is, well, quite something - a lot of self-confidence or lack thereof ?

May be we, you, all of us give too much importance to his video talks. May be SA gives him too much importance (no, I don't want to hear any argument about the 4Oish people they have to pay the wages for, come on, we're not talking humanitarian teams, here). 

I find it kind of entertaining, all the drama. As DJ said, we're talking about VI, here. It's not a question of disrespecting anyone's work (or not disrespecting anyones money and purchase, btw) but at the end of the day, it's just one musician opinion, very vocal I must admit, partly followed by a bunch of viewers, but I'm confident it's not DJ's rant that make or break the launch of this amazing set of virtual instrumentationsbut rather the way SA responds to any discrepancy between the promise and the product.

But as we say in French : les promesses n'engagent que ceux qui les croient.
_
Promises only bind those who believe in them_.


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## novaburst (Apr 3, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> I disagree with this bit slightly. The onus shouldn't be on the customer to find faults with a product, the company themselves are responsible for quality assurance. If they release it buggy that fault lies with them, not the reviewers that point it out. It should be reviewed in the state its released, in my opinion of course.



If you cant review a product satisfactory because you came across some issues you simply should not review it until it is fixed or at least until you can get a satisfactory review, part of the problem is not known what the library can do or not being able to work it out, you should have spent a few days with the product at least to work things out and find work abounds, the next step if it found to be a problem is to report it not review it, get a ticket.
Any attitude should be I want to review this product until I am satisfied I am doing things correct or the issues are sorted



Daniel James said:


> I feel like while calling out companies shortcomings will hurt in the short term



And that is the very thing you should avoid putting yourself in this position not understanding every issue on the library makes you blind to the damage you may or may not be coursing that's irresponsible and you may as well be drunk or consumed from head to toe with alcohol when you cant comprehend the dynamics of damaged coursed
when you say things on a subject or software you don't fully understand especially with the hi profile position you hold. 



Daniel James said:


> I feel the point of reviewers is to actually help the industries they are in. They create a degree of accountability



At least give them the chance to take account by reporting it and getting a ticket.



Daniel James said:


> If you don't call out a company when they do something wrong there is no incentive for them to improve themselves going forward



how do you know a developer is not trying there very best, what you are actually saying is you don't trust the developer including the one in question or you would not feel the need to make that statement, if you cant trust Spitfire to go through the correct procedure and correct the bugs you really should not be purchasing or reviewing anything from them, if the case is you do trust them then let them get on with the program and don't interfere by premature reviews, you just become a man shooting a gun at them with a blind fold on thinking you grazed them on the leg and oh they will get over it but the damage you actually did was course internal bleeding and the doctors could not revive him.

When we have this instant media at our hands its very important how we use it while I may only have a pea shooter that will do no damage the more rating and popularity I gain that pea shooter becomes a gun so I cant use it the way I used the pea shooter.

Just because they are developers does not mean there not humans in that team are very normal people that can be effected by what is said on the net, so to your followers you are yer yer your the man, but to some you are the one that coursed unemployment, so while your followers are hear today and gone tomorrow you coursed a lasting effect on the Developer

If your ok with that and go with the attitude of so what, who cares, its the developers fault, i say what I want,....
When you say things with out the care of what it does to others your just a self centred person and only care about what it is your saying regardless of any consequence you course.


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## acomposer (Apr 3, 2018)

blougui said:


> Calling DJ a non-professional is an _abus de langage _or a total misconception of who he really is



Did someone call DJ a non-professional? I have read alot of these threads but must have missed that. Who said that?


----------



## Lionel Schmitt (Apr 3, 2018)

since it is already out for purchase I think it is extremely important that people are warned about bugs in the library. Then they can for example hold of and wait till an update is released and people are confirming that the bugs are sufficiently resolved.


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## blougui (Apr 3, 2018)

May be I misread, sorry if I did.



Johann F. said:


> ven with your casual "first look" format, I think you should show some professional courtesy and put a little effort in it, otherwise you will be just another kid on Youtube banging keys and making fart jokes.



If it would be anyone else as a professional composer-producer, I wouldn't mind the opinion underlining the 1st look. But however unprepared such an "open the box" is, the fact it's voiced by someone who is indeed an active actor of the VI Scene and composing for the media is at least telling. 

Anyway anyhow, I think we care too much about the most vocal ones,as if they were the champions of the more shy and discreet people. I guess they're not.

I often found Mr Thompson too thin skinned for the (online) game - surely he's not, considering how successful his company is. But there goes passion, I guess...


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## acomposer (Apr 3, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> since it is already out for purchase I think it is extremely important that people are warned about bugs in the library.



Yes, that's great and I agree. But one has to ask whether the same level of scrutiny and attention is present in DJs reviews of other developers products. If so, that's cool. From what I have read, Spitfire do seem to be getting singled out for a little more attention than is the norm. Would you not agree?

Considering the number of posts and threads on the issue thus far.


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## Jaap (Apr 3, 2018)

I can't help but wonder if there is also a forum for Electricians out there and if it is has the same passion and heat when a new voltage meter by the Hans Zimmer amongst Electricians (there must be!) gets released and reviewed.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Apr 3, 2018)

acomposer said:


> Yes, that's great and I agree. But one has to ask whether the same level of scrutiny and attention is present in DJs reviews of other developers products. If so, that's cool. From what I have read, Spitfire do seem to be getting singled out for a little more attention than is the norm. Would you not agree?
> 
> Considering the number of posts and threads on the issue thus far.


Well, that's propably because there is a lot of attention on the product than on others... thus also on the flaws - and it's one of the most expensive products on the market and can't be resold or refunded thus it is... non-trivial, to put it extremely mildly, if it is full of worms.


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## tehreal (Apr 3, 2018)

Jaap said:


> I can't help but wonder if there is also a forum for Electricians out there and if it is has the same passion and heat when a new voltage meter by the Hans Zimmer amongst Electricians (there must be!) gets released and reviewed.



There is. Here's a great discussion on insulated screwdrivers:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f14/insulated-screwdrivers-253921/


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## Jaap (Apr 3, 2018)

tehreal said:


> There is. Here's a great discussion on insulated screwdrivers:
> 
> http://www.electriciantalk.com/f14/insulated-screwdrivers-253921/



Thanks!


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## robgb (Apr 3, 2018)

Johann F. said:


> To sum it up, here's a video of someone who chose to create something out of nothing, released one day after your "first look" went live.


Insert eye roll here.

It amazes me that an advocate for good and useable software, a guy who took a lot of money out of his own pocket and spent over five hours running through a new library in a live stream, showing both its weaknesses and strengths to help the rest of us decide whether or not we want to spend six hundred or more fucking dollars of our hard-earned money on that library gets vilified by a bunch of Hans Zimmer and Spitfire fanboys because he had concerns that Spitfire had abandoned Kontakt and was critical of the new engine. I mean, Jesus Christ, people, it's a sample library, not a gift from God. If it has problems, it has problems. Pointing them out does not make the messenger a villain.

I don't know Daniel James. I've seen a few of his videos and have been impressed by his work, that's about it. So the only dog I have in this ridiculous schoolyard brawl is my wallet. I was initially impressed by Spitfire's walkthroughs of this product. But my first inclination when I see a thread like this—especially when the OP (an alleged reviewer) wonders whether or not he should review an apparently flawed product (I mean, WTF?)—is snap that wallet shut and wait. Let the fanboys sacrifice their green gifts to their God. I'll hang back until the dust clears and see if I can find another honest review before I make my final decision.

Business 101. The customer is always right. You don't come on a public forum and blast someone because he complained about your product.


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 3, 2018)

Wow, bit of a Daniel James witch hunt going on here. 

I thought only Spitfire gets witch hunted around here...?


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 3, 2018)

Johann F. said:


> To sum it up, here's a video of someone who chose to create something out of nothing, released one day after your "first look" went live. Same tools, same time frame. I'll let the video do the talking:




This emphesizes even more that it's almost just like a "Tundra" 2.0. He layered brass in there and other stuff, too. It does sound good, but I'm wondering, is there anything really "new" here? It's labeled as groundbreaking and all that jazz. The parts featuring the HZS (after the brassy intro) lasted more than half the track and were mostly quiet and intimate, exactly DJ's point.
Tundra and Ark 2 fit that billing nicely. So it may be difficult for someone who has either one of those to find a compelling reason to pick it up, especially when Tundra is cheaper. I think Daniel even mentioned that --they're competing with themselves on this one. It would have been better to offer a more distinct product, which doesn't really overlap with other libraries they've already released.
From my perspective it's like this. It's perfect for some wealthy composer out there who is lacking maybe a few orchestral colors, and can afford to shell out that kind of money on a whim. And maybe that's who they're reallty aiming at anyway.


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## novaburst (Apr 3, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> *"Clarity is job #1*
> Clarity is the first and most important job of any interface. To be effective using an interface you've designed, people must be able to recognize what it is,



Read the user manual, it gets you further than trying to figure things out by starring at the GUI and clicking around with your mouse, and gives you a much more broader understanding of product you are using.


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## Jazzy_Joe (Apr 3, 2018)

The bottom line is a guy bought this library, and feels it is not what was advertised, and is not entirely happy with it, and is sharing his opinion here. 

I know it can take a while to learn the nuances of a library, how to perform it in correctly, sweet spots and each has its own quirks etc...
But that being said.... if I had a gig on, 24 hours to turn it around, client wanted 'Zimmer', and I shilled out for this library either through impulse or marketing or otherwise, I'd be pissed if it took more than 5 hours for me to figure out how to use it with a deadline looming, AND legatos were broken on launch. What is the learning curve on this library, do we need to put in 40 hours with it to 'understand' it? Sorry, I'm being a little sarcastic but hopefully you get my point!

I'm pretty sure we've all been stung by expensive purchases in the past that just don't get used or certainly haven't paid for themselves over time, and I think these forums have been on fire the last few days as this resonates on both sides of the conversation. 

I also understand Reuben's position and the position he has put himself in this debate, but feel like if he is serious about reviewing these products for us, he has to maintain integrity to his initial opinion on it.
Checking if its OK to post his review here first, so as not to ruffle many feathers, has weakened that opinion for me a bit. Don't get me wrong, I do watch most of Reuben's shows I appreciate and agree with a lot of reviews, but stick to your guns man, I want to hear your thoughts! 

Saying all that, I'm in bed with Spitfire to the tune of a couple of grand, generally very happy with the products I've purchased, watch the live announcements, get embroiled in the teasers and launch events like everyone else, but with a degree of caution. This forum over the last few days has been more enthralling than any product launch!


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## acomposer (Apr 3, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> Well, that's propably because there is a lot of attention on the product than on others... thus also on the flaws - and it's one of the most expensive products on the market and can't be resold or refunded thus it is... non-trivial, to put it extremely mildly, if it is full of worms.



Do you think 'full of worms' might be a bit of an exaggeration? Do you own the product yourself?

The words 'bandwagon' and 'jumping' do kinda spring to mind on this thread.


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## acomposer (Apr 3, 2018)

I'd just like to see instances where DJ has singled out another developer with the same level of - shall we say, 'enthusiasm'.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Apr 3, 2018)

acomposer said:


> Do you think 'full of worms' might be a bit of an exaggeration? Do you own the product yourself?
> 
> The words 'bandwagon' and 'jumping' do kinda spring to mind on this thread.


*IF* it is full of worms... 
was not saying that it is. And don't take everything literally - it may well be small bugs, no problem with that (to keep the animal thing going  )


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## InLight-Tone (Apr 3, 2018)

I need a cold shower, that was exhausting...


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## DS_Joost (Apr 3, 2018)

robgb said:


> Insert eye roll here.
> 
> It amazes me that an advocate for good and useable software, a guy who took a lot of money out of his own pocket and spent over five hours running through a new library in a live stream, showing both its weaknesses and strengths to help the rest of us decide whether or not we want to spend six hundred or more fucking dollars of our hard-earned money on that library gets vilified by a bunch of Hans Zimmer and Spitfire fanboys because he had concerns that Spitfire had abandoned Kontakt and was critical of the new engine. I mean, Jesus Christ, people, it's a sample library, not a gift from God. If it has problems, it has problems. Pointing them out does not make the messenger a villain.
> 
> ...



Wanted to say the exact thing but could not have said it better. Bravo!


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## reutunes (Apr 3, 2018)

Jazzy_Joe said:


> I also understand Reuben's position and the position he has put himself in this debate, but feel like if he is serious about reviewing these products for us, he has to maintain integrity to his initial opinion on it.
> Checking if its OK to post his review here first, so as not to ruffle many feathers, has weakened that opinion for me a bit. Don't get me wrong, I do watch most of Reuben's shows I appreciate and agree with a lot of reviews, but stick to your guns man, I want to hear your thoughts!



As I've stated a few times on this thread, the question is not whether or not I review the product in an unbiased way with integrity, of course that will happen. The question is rather, what sort of review is most useful to people in the long term... pre or post bug-fixing? Of course, this initial germ of a question has long since been forgotten in 11 pages of strong opinons / emotions about everything from Spitfire to Screwdrivers. This is VI Control after all, and I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## Jazzy_Joe (Apr 3, 2018)

reutunes said:


> As I've stated a few times on this thread, the question is not whether or not I review the product in an unbiased way with integrity, of course that will happen. The question is rather, what sort of review is most useful to people in the long term... pre or post bug-fixing? Of course, this initial germ of a question has long since been forgotten in 11 pages of strong opinons / emotions about everything from Spitfire to Screwdrivers. This is VI Control after all, and I wouldn't have it any other way.



Its certainly been a crazy few days here! Fair point, and I look forward to watching your review.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 3, 2018)

robgb said:


> Business 101. The customer is *sometimes* right. You don't come on a public forum and blast someone because he complained about your product.



Fixed that for ya.


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## Johann F. (Apr 3, 2018)

robgb said:


> This question alone has saved me $600.



That's cool!



robgb said:


> while Mr. Thompson has made me never want to buy a spitfire product again



Got it the first time!



robgb said:


> the only dog I have in this ridiculous schoolyard brawl is my wallet



Hmmm okay...



robgb said:


> is snap that wallet shut and wait



This is getting a bit repetitive repetitive repetitive repetitive 



robgb said:


> Dude, why are you even commenting?



You should listen to yourself sometimes. 



robgb said:


> Business 101. The customer is always right



What's next? Are you giving us the classic "I pay your salary, respect my authoritah" nonsense too?  The level of entitlement here...


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## lux (Apr 3, 2018)

Speaking on a strictly personal point of view I for one think that it would be kind of a waste of very nice Reuben's abilities in reviewing a product, knowing it's got some "first public release" bug which is going to be fixed (or it's already fixed) in a matter of days.

As a potential purchaser (speaking in general) I'd happily wait just a few days so I can see reviewed the product I'm gonna buy and not one who had a short (and maybe problematic) life and it's gone. It's just more useful to me as a user


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## robgb (Apr 3, 2018)

Johann F. said:


> You should listen to yourself sometimes.


I'm not trying to sell a product. I'm one of the consumers this product is aimed at.


Johann F. said:


> What's next? Are you giving us the classic "I pay your salary, respect my authoritah" nonsense too?  The level of entitlement here...


Yeah, the customer is the entitled one. LOL.


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## jamwerks (Apr 3, 2018)

Jazzy_Joe said:


> The bottom line is a guy bought this library, and feels it is not what was advertised, and is not entirely happy with it, and is sharing his opinion here.
> 
> I know it can take a while to learn the nuances of a library, how to perform it in correctly, sweet spots and each has its own quirks etc...
> But that being said.... if I had a gig on, 24 hours to turn it around, client wanted 'Zimmer', and I shilled out for this library either through impulse or marketing or otherwise, I'd be pissed if it took more than 5 hours for me to figure out how to use it with a deadline looming,


Again that's why it's so important to rtfm. After roughly 15 minutes you're good to go!


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 3, 2018)

Johann F. said:


> Even with your casual "first look" format, I think you should show some professional courtesy and put a little effort in it, otherwise you will be just another kid on Youtube banging keys and making fart jokes.



Hey, my fart joke was meant to relieve some tension in this "debate." 
Although, I suppose I do act like a kid sometimes. Don't we all? 

When it comes to Reuben, I really don't think he is biased. The very fact that they made a post admitting all of these flaws with the engine kind of proves it. We're grasping at straws and shadows with that one. Now, whether or not someone should receive a free copy for a review, that is up for debate. But simply receiving it doesn't make one biased --just as not receiving one doesn't make one automatically biased either (in the negative towards the library). I think all persectives should be welcome. So it does put me a bit off when I see the big guys from the development team come on here and rail against certain people. It's a bit off-pudding. As a very small developer myself, if I had a problem with someone and how they represented one of my products, I would privately message them. It wouldn't matter how big I was, either. It just appears a bit unprofessional. Publicly telling a paid customer that they're opinion is "nonsense." Come on. I'm waiting from one of them to come on and tell me about how hard they worked on it and how passionate they are. I get it, I understand. I'm also passionate. That's just not an excuse.


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## robgb (Apr 3, 2018)

reutunes said:


> As I've stated a few times on this thread, the question is not whether or not I review the product in an unbiased way with integrity, of course that will happen. The question is rather, what sort of review is most useful to people in the long term... pre or post bug-fixing?


Asking the question alone puts your judgment in a bad light. You review the product as released. If you have a pre-release product, you state that up front. If I were to do a review of, say, 8Dio's Adagietto, I'd have to point out that it has mistuned samples and clicks and annoying quacks that need to be addressed in an update. Unfortunately, a couple years later and those problems have never been addressed. Just because a developer says they're going to fix it (no matter who they are), doesn't mean it's going to happen. So, if you value your integrity as a reviewer, you do the review, warts and all, and let the consumer decide whether those warts matter. Your customer is either the end user or the developer. It can't be both.

All of this could easily be mitigated if the developer in question released demos of their products or allowed refunds or resales. But this one doesn't.


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 3, 2018)

Just wait. 

How useful will a review be in a years time that just talks about a bunch bugs that don’t exist anymore?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Apr 3, 2018)

reutunes said:


> As I've stated a few times on this thread, the question is not whether or not I review the product in an unbiased way with integrity, of course that will happen. The question is rather, what sort of review is most useful to people in the long term... pre or post bug-fixing? Of course, this initial germ of a question has long since been forgotten in 11 pages of strong opinons / emotions about everything from Spitfire to Screwdrivers. This is VI Control after all, and I wouldn't have it any other way.



Come one do the fucking review, man. Do you want to be taken as independent honest reviewer? So whats the fucking problem then? Paul said that there is no problem. So whats the hold?


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## Mike Fox (Apr 3, 2018)

robgb said:


> Asking the question alone puts your judgment in a bad light. You review the product as released. If you have a pre-release product, you state that up front. If I were to do a review of, say, 8Dio's Adagietto, I'd have to point out that it has mistuned samples and clicks and annoying quacks that need to be addressed in an update. Unfortunately, a couple years later and those problems have never been addressed. Just because a developer says they're going to fix it (no matter who they are), doesn't mean it's going to happen. So, if you value your integrity as a reviewer, you do the review, warts and all, and let the consumer decide whether those warts matter. Your customer is either the end user or the developer. It can't be both.
> 
> All of this could easily be mitigated if the developer in question released demos of their products or allowed refunds or resales. But this one doesn't.


I agree, especially since I've never see any other "Give (fill in the developer's name) a chance?" threads. If these kinds of threads have been created for other libraries in the same boat, it might make a little more sense to ask the question.


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## robgb (Apr 3, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> How useful will a review be in a years time that just talks about a bunch bugs that don’t exist anymore?


Very useful if those bugs are never properly addressed. Especially if the end user is spending a LOT of money with no chance of a refund. The review can always be updated when the updates are done by Spitfire.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 3, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Just wait.
> 
> How useful will a review be in a years time that just talks about a bunch bugs that don’t exist anymore?


It will actually do a lot of good for Spitfire, because It will show that they cared enough to sort the bugs out. THAT is what excellent customer service is. Besides, reviews should be an accurate representation of a product in the now.


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## benmrx (Apr 3, 2018)

reutunes said:


> As I've stated a few times on this thread, the question is not whether or not I review the product in an unbiased way with integrity, of course that will happen. The question is rather, what sort of review is most useful to people in the long term... pre or post bug-fixing?



But the title of the thread is "give spitfire a chance or not". Not "which version would you like me to review". The very basis of your initial question is directed to whether or not you should give the developer a chance to improve and/or fix their product before your review.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Apr 3, 2018)

@reutunes I mean even if your review reveals that the library sucks major balls at its current state with some patches...man, and? Does that make spitfire a bad company, no. The guys having good marketing intentions but it tells me in the future to consider your reviewing. So whats the deal? I am not a reviewer, god thank you I have no deal with doing that, it would get headdaches when I go and read this here all. What a kindergarten bullshit at least in my opinion. I mean even opening a thread for that. boy..


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## Garry (Apr 3, 2018)

For me, I'm unwatching this and all other HZS-related threads, as it has now for some time been cycling. For those whose interest and patience with the ad hominem stuff has run out,, like mine, I can summarise below. So, here's (my own personal view of) what we learned (if it doesn't match yours that's ok, it doesn't mean I called your mum a whore):

*Pros* about the library:

Some great sounds, new articulations not available in other libraries (particularly the quiet ones, where 60 cellists, or 344 players total give you artifact sounds not otherwise possible); lush, smooth sounds, and great low end.
Unparalled amount of mic positions, gives exceptional control over the sound
GUI looks beautiful; larger than Kontakt and resizable.
Already some great demos about what this library can do (eg Ashton Gleckman)
Represents where Hans feels his legacy is: diverse and eclectic
Not your average library: needs time to learn how to get the best from it, but repays patience.
Exactly what some people have been waiting for: lots of highly satisfied customers
*Cons* about the library (and suggested/ongoing fixes):

Legatos need fixing (fix promised from SA imminently)
Small percentage experiencing show-stopper problems (can't run more than a few notes, if at all), particularly it seems on Win10 machines (SA support aware and working with individual customers)
Not enough shorts (possible expansion set in early discussion between Paul & Hans)
Not enough differentiation to other libraries: direct comparison suggests to some that combination of Albion One/Tundra, and a few other libraries (eg Ark1 or LASS) typically already on people's hard drives come VERY close to reproducing the sound (more direct comparisons needed by reviewers, not just rubber-stamping overviews)
Won't meet your expectations if you were hoping for loud, epic, bombastic; look to other libraries for this
Lots of dead space on the GUI: requires lots of scrolling through mic positions & articulations (suggested to have a basic/advanced view as with other Spitfire products)
Inconsistent articulations across sections
Differentiation in function of new engine from Kontakt seems insufficient to warrant the change in workflow that moving away from Kontakt involves (for some): what else does it bring that justifies the departure (SA may reasonably justify this in terms of licensing to NI - fair enough)
To me, I've learned about as much as I'm going to learn from these threads about the library, and I'm grateful to all who shared the knowledge, and helped me and others, make our decision, whatever that may be.

What is a complete turn-off is the tribalism I see on here: some people seem hell bent on opposing either Spitfire, or Daniel, based presumably on prior grudges which now seemingly clouds their every discussion. Spitfire are clearly a genuine, honest company, trying to make a world-class business out of making the best tools available to the community, based on what they, as composers, feel will most suit their needs. They have engaged the best talent in the industry to help them do so, and they use clever, entertaining and effective marketing strategies to generate maximum interest in their products. They are fully engaged with their customers, and seem to be doing their best to fix the problems as soon as possible.

Daniel is one guy, whose video was useful, entertaining and informative, who seems to have had the intention of providing an honest first look, which was highly requested and anticipated by many who value his opinion prior to launch. Obviously there's some history between Daniel and Spitfire, and this getting aired in public is a little unseemly, but my own personal opinion was despite any history, he set out to give it an honest review, was genuinely positive about the things he liked, and courageously critical about the things he didn't. If you don't agree with him, he will happily debate it with you; there is no need to question his intentions.

For me, part of the problem is that people are forced to weight such opinions more than they would otherwise need to, because Spitfire do not allow trial demo periods (in which case everyone could have reviewed it themselves) or license transfers (in which case a high-priced product was less of a risk without relying on the reviews of early-adopters like Daniel). I have confidence that Spitfire will address the initial bugs (and Daniel was right to point them out), and hope they consider the larger point about trial demos/license transfers, to offset the risk that result following negative publicity when neither of these mitigating factors are allowed.

Ok, so again, I think personally I've learned everything I can from these threads, and am now checking out.

Who want's my popcorn?


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## blougui (Apr 3, 2018)

@AlexanderSchiborr
I find it more highschool than kindergarten, actually. All this personal drama and "what if" with a lot of emotional reactions and angst or social anxiety is rather teenage, isn't it?


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## Lee Blaske (Apr 3, 2018)

Garry said:


> Not enough differentiation to other libraries: direct comparison suggests to some that combination of Albion One/Tundra, and a few other libraries (eg Ark1 or LASS) typically already on people's hard drives come VERY close to reproducing the sound (more direct comparisons needed by reviewers, not just rubber-stamping overviews)



I wonder if as the market becomes saturated with more and more libraries, the problem of not enough differentiation will grow. Is it possible that there are just too many similar components? I'm sure that a lot of the same players from other libraries are involved, and they've developed a method of performing that will be similar. They'll likely be performing in the same space, with the same engineers, and the same people doing the editing and instrument assembly. In the case of this library, there are just more players involved. 

Makes my think of the recent EW Hollywood Choir library (which I have not yet purchased). From the demos I've heard, it sounds a LOT like the old library. 

It may be hard for human beings to avoid falling into familiar patterns. It's really no different from a jazz player playing the same lick way too often. How to avoid getting into a rut is a full-time job.


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## tehreal (Apr 3, 2018)

Garry said:


> For me, I'm unwatching this and all other HZS-related threads, as it has now for some time been cycling. For those whose interest and patience with the ad hominem stuff has run out,, like mine, I can summarise below. So, here's (my own personal view of) what we learned (if it doesn't match yours that's ok, it doesn't mean I called your mum a whore):
> 
> *Pros* about the library:
> 
> ...



Wow, great summary. Henceforth known as the "Summgarry". Can you do this for all the threads? Thanks in advance.


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## Garry (Apr 3, 2018)

tehreal said:


> Wow, great summary. Henceforth known as the "Summgarry". Can you do this for all the threads? Thanks in advance.



Thanks  I was a bit concerned about whether Summgarry should come out before or after the update, but I decided to pull the trigger 

Hey, wait a minute, didn't I check out?... I'll get me coat!


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## dpasdernick (Apr 3, 2018)

Paul Thomson said:


> The above (from DJ) is total nonsense.
> 
> But I’m not engaging with it as it’s pointless getting drawn into an argument with someone who desperately wants to have a row.
> 
> ...




It didn't resonate as nonsense to me. It made perfect sense. When a company sells a product it should be usable. As consumers most of us have a finite amount of funds for this type of product and people buy it based on the idea that it will function as promised. 

The software industry often gets a pass with "we'll fix it in the mix" where as hardware (not just music hardware) better be right. Don't release buggy software and we'll keep buying it.


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## Daniel James (Apr 3, 2018)

Jesus there is a lot to unpack here. Lemme get some coffee and let's do this shit all over again. I'm surprised @Rctec we are talking about what Hans Zimmer means again because I already conceded that point like 2 threads and 40 pages ago, but if you want to get into that again I can. I don't want people thinking I'm saying something I'm not!

Actually fuck it. I'm gunna live stream my response. Why not, lets make this conversation more open.

-DJ


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## Dave Connor (Apr 3, 2018)

ghandizilla said:


> I'm just under the impression Daniel was looking for a certain old fashioned Hans Zimmer sound. And though HZ has moved on to other soundscapes (which I find great), Daniel has a point: when you market something with this name, a fair amount of consumers will go after that sound, and could be disappointed, even angry given the price.


I thought the review was doomed right from the start when DJ said he was looking for *Pirates of the Caribbean* executable strings. If you listen to HZ talk for 12 seconds or more, everything is _moving things forward_. The very last thing one should expect is for him to create a _new_ library that would allow the user to emulate what he was doing a decade and a half ago.

The only guarantee the name Hans Zimmer on a library would seem to indicate is that it will be unconventional while offering new sonic capabilities as a cinematic tool. His piano was not meant for late Beethoven and his strings are not meant for early Mozart or even mid Zimmer. They may be just what you need for the tomorrow you though.

Not commenting on any technical issues except to say that the Spitfire team are people of real integrity who listen to their public and are no doubt sensitive and responsive to it. As to the library I've heard so many gorgeous things in it already (right from the start of DJ's _review_ in fact.)

Everyone has their own philosophy for expenditure on samples so simply apply whatever yours is. I bought HZ01 Percussion for the HZ timpani alone - for that singular instrument and sound. Never thought twice about the cost. But don't criticize Spitfire and HZ for applying their artistic philosophy in their work. And why guess what the results of their latest efforts will be? Just listen and decide if you like the results enough to incorporate it into your artistic aims.


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## vms (Apr 3, 2018)

Garry said:


> For me, I'm unwatching this and all other HZS-related threads, as it has now for some time been cycling. For those whose interest and patience with the ad hominem stuff has run out,, like mine, I can summarise below. So, here's (my own personal view of) what we learned (if it doesn't match yours that's ok, it doesn't mean I called your mum a whore):


It is such a waste to post the Pros & Cons list here, which is pretty useful for all potential buyers, you should start a new thread for it.


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## blougui (Apr 3, 2018)

yup,another HZS thread !
Please !
There's not enough of them...


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## blougui (Apr 3, 2018)

May be we should start a pool about the best HZS thread ?

Edit :or rather a poll,as Shad0wLandsUK corrected thanxfully 
Or a pool for a brawl, may be ?


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Apr 3, 2018)

blougui said:


> May be we should start a pool about the best HZS thread ?


I get the feeling you meant 'poll'...

But hey, let's dive in and get one going..poll or pool


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## Dr Belasco (Apr 3, 2018)

Wow, this thread has taken a left, a right and a left again.


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## prodigalson (Apr 3, 2018)

robgb said:


> gets vilified by a bunch of Hans Zimmer and Spitfire fanboys because he had concerns that Spitfire had abandoned Kontakt and was critical of the new engine.



This kind of comment is the only thing that is really pissing me off about these threads. Sorry if some people just happen to like the product and weren't expecting (or wanting) it to sound like a collection of loud, aggressive shorts from Pirates of the Caribbean. It works on their systems and aren't bothered by the bugs. They get to have an opinion stating that and that doesn't make them Spitfire or Hans Zimmer fanboys just because they happen to fucking like the library and are expressing a view contrary to the mudslinging bandwagons these threads have become. From what I can tell, noone is vilifying him for not liking the library. It's everything else.


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## Dr Belasco (Apr 3, 2018)

I have a collection of loud, aggressive shorts but I don't wear them anymore.


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## robgb (Apr 3, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> They get to have an opinion stating that and that doesn't make them Spitfire or Hans Zimmer fanboys


You're absolutely right about that. What makes them Hans Zimmer and Spitfire fanboys is attacking Daniel James because he had the audacity to point out that the library isn't perfect, and ignoring every single post he's made to defend his position.


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## blougui (Apr 3, 2018)

Oops !
Yes, you're right, I wanted to much to dive in !


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## prodigalson (Apr 3, 2018)

robgb said:


> You're absolutely right about that. What makes them Hans Zimmer and Spitfire fanboys is attacking Daniel James because he had the audacity to point out that the library isn't perfect, and ignoring every single post he's made to defend his position.



And you're projecting a motive onto everyone that has criticized him that it's just because he didn't think the library was perfect and conveniently ignoring every post criticizing his perspective, approach and eveyrthing else. what nonsense.


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## blougui (Apr 3, 2018)

It's difficult to ignore DJ's posts : they take so much room


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## JohnG (Apr 3, 2018)

Rctec said:


> But Daniel, the main problem for me with your walk-through is that your point of view is fundamentally unreliable - since you have a pre-conceived idea of “The Zimmer Sound” having the strings play loudly. You don’t really seem to listen or hear what goes on in the track with how I use strings... they usually play quietly. Let me give you some examples... but this time, really Listen. I don’t need to use words to describe what I mean. I just link you to the music:
> 
> And here is a little something with far too many cellos, playing way outside their comfort zone...
> 
> ...I’m just posting this to make you aware that your methodology of your walk-throughs is flawed from the beginning...


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## Michael Antrum (Apr 3, 2018)

This thread reminds me of one of those interminable TV series on Netflix that has like 7 seasons - and as you are watching it you realise that the the story has had nothing new to say since the middle of season 2.....

It's not like anyone is going to change their view here, and nor should they have to. The world is big enough for people to disagree. It appears that the internet, however, is not.

A few things I would like to say:

Anyone who imagined that a whole new plug-in engine was going to be launched on the wide range of systems we all use without incident, could be regarded as a little naive at best. There were bound to be a few issues. I think however, in the long term it may give Spitfire more control how they can sell their products. For example it _may_ give them the option to deactivate as well as activate software, which may allow for software trials, subscriptions or even rental, rather than be beholden to whatever NI decide to do with their software. It _may_ be a case of a little short term pain for some long term gain. It could be the platform for all sorts of interesting things, and I look forward to seeing where it will go.

There seems to be a trend (_not_ from DJ I must say) of prescribing the most base of motives to the purveyors of sample libraries. If money was what interested them most, I'm pretty sure they would be doing something else for a living. Nearly all the developers I have seen on this forum clearly have a love and a passion for what they do, and put their heart and soul into it. If you tell a new mother their baby is ugly, then don't be surprised if they hit back a little, and you should be fine with them doing so. Why shouldn't they defend their company and it's products ?

The same goes for people who receive NFR copies. Since when has it been acceptable to question the character of people who receive them ? I'm sure you wouldn't say that to someone face to face. But on the internet, it seems that this is all fine. I don't think it is.

Reuben asked if he should review the library as it is now, or with the bug fix that is apparently coming in the next few days. He almost seems concerned that his credibility is on the line with which choice he makes, which saddens me a little. Reuben has given so much to this community for so long, and I for one have appreciated all his efforts. Personally, I think that if a bug fix is due in a day or so, I would review it then, for pragmatic reasons at the very least. If not, the review will be out of date in a matter of days, and what use would that be to potential purchasers ?

I am not a professional musician/composer, although I was classically trained on the piano from the age of 7. I make my money elsewhere, and for me writing music is a joy. I am one of the much denigrated 'hobbyists', although I have recently been asked to write five cues for an independent film. I'm going to do it too, and I hope that writing for money doesn't suck the joy out of it all. Reading this forum it sometimes seems to me that it can happen.

I didn't buy HZ strings, but the pre-sale material that I saw made it pretty clear what it was. At least I thought it did, as I don't actually have the library - but I did understand it to be largely massive sections played quietly. (Instead I bought a second hand set of Roland V-Drums with mesh heads. They are very therapeutic and highly recommended.)

One thing for DJ though. I haven't watched your walkthrough, although I would have if it were not 5 hours long. In five hours (on a good day) I can earn the money it would cost to purchase HZ strings, and I think you would get a lot more views if you were a little more, erm, succinct. Just my 2 cents.

One thing I will promise, however, is something that is rarely seen on internet forums. I have said my piece, given my views, and will now shut up and not feel the need to 'defend' myself and my views. I don't need to have the last word. (At least I hope I don't....)


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## ghandizilla (Apr 3, 2018)

Impressive how the short posts in Hans Zimmer Strings topics are far more aggressive than the actual shorts in Hans Zimmer Strings library. What if we actually recorded a library based on angry composers shouting at each others and make nice Prodigy-fashioned music with it?


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## Grim_Universe (Apr 3, 2018)

It's nonsense. What the hell, guys? Really, how it is possible to argue about the same library for a week already? It's just a pad library with some cool features. I have only one possible explanation: it's all about the name. Hans is a really great composer, but with all your attention he really becomes a god. Are you crazy?


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## blougui (Apr 3, 2018)

@mickeybabes : at least a word of wisdom ! Thanx !
@Grim_Universe : a god, no but a pop star, yes, no doubt.


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## Ron Kords (Apr 3, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Jesus there is a lot to unpack here. Lemme get some coffee and let's do this shit all over again. I'm surprised @Rctec we are talking about what Hans Zimmer means again because I already conceded that point like 2 threads and 40 pages ago, but if you want to get into that again I can. I don't want people thinking I'm saying something I'm not!
> 
> Actually fuck it. I'm gunna live stream my response. Why not, lets make this conversation more open.
> 
> -DJ


Oh god. No Dan, please....!


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 3, 2018)

I think there is a generally fallacy almost all of us fall for: those in positions of authority or power are at the cutting edge or doing things which nobody has done or thought of before.

Here is an interesting article to read: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazin...uck-matters-more-than-you-might-think/476394/
You may not believe me, but I had the exact same idea behind SWARM and I discussed this with Lindon Parker, but instead of trying to do something like SWARM (because Spitfire had just released it), he came up with a crazy granular resynthesis engine for Seurat.
But because there are some people in power with recourses, time, money, and whathaveyou, they can capitalize on the ideas they have and reap the fruits thereof. This is just the way life is.
There are other great minds out there who are not discovered, whether it be because of their circumstances, death, mental illness, natural disaster, not knowing anyone.....and so on. So I think any sample library company should have a certain bit of humility (actually, a healthy dose) knowing that they have been incredibly lucky to grow up in the circumstances they have been in (or anyone with celebrity, fame, power, and whathaveyou). We are merely discovering things. We are stumbling upon things. If we think we had a novel idea or some "avent garde" idea, chances are someone else already had that idea, and in some cases long before you. I know maybe that's actually a bit demotivating? Like, oh, so I'm not so special after all? No, that's not what I mean. I mean that we are more similar than we think, and that the chances of having a novel idea amongst 7+ billion people is next to nothing.

I forgot where this was going.
Oh, that's right. I am getting sick of people saying things like "it must be good if Hans worked on it" or "Spitfire wouldn't have done this if they didn't think it would work well."
That's backwards. We need to look at the state of things as they are right now and judge whatever it is in that state.
If someone never struck out at the plate in 12 plate appearances (I hope you guys understand baseball?), does that mean that they will never stike out?
Simple facts:
Spitfire Released a buggy, flawed instrument.
That's about the only "fact" in this discussion.
All of the other stuff seems to be opinion, and it's been somewhat haughty and arrogent on both sides (at times).
But, really, why are there sides anyway?
Criticism should only help Spitfire improve more.
Spitfire should be graciously accepting critism (even if they privately don't agree with everything) and use whatever they know is the "legitimate" critism to improve their future products (and current ones with updates).
Alright. I think I need a break from this.


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## dpasdernick (Apr 3, 2018)

This thread is why robots will soon rule the earth...


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## Kony (Apr 3, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> I'm surprised @Rctec we are talking about what Hans Zimmer means again because I already conceded that point like 2 threads and 40 pages ago


I was surprised too ... until I read this:


Rctec said:


> Paul and I where discussing exactly that today... and a few other ideas


It's interesting (and very disappointing) that HZ revived an argument after it had already been put to bed. One wonders if it had something to do with the later disagreement here on VI-C between DJ and PT....

I've lost a lot of respect for Spitfire at this point - particularly as they are obviously active participants on this forum but ignored numerous requests for a legato video demo prior to launch ... one also wonders why that was after the release revealed the legato was broken. 

And no, I'm not a Spitfire hater - I've invested thousands with them and was planning to invest thousands more this year but I've been turned off by their combative responses to the point that I'm only looking at other devs now. 

Is it a thing that, the larger a company gets, the less it cares about client relationship management? 

SA fanboys feel free to flame me - I see you coming from a mile off, but bear in mind I was also a big SA fan until now....


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## blougui (Apr 3, 2018)

May be a privilege of my old age, I almost never take decisions of that sort.
I like SA,I like the VI I bought from them.I like the way they handle their relationships with us - Henson's presence, vlog, freebies, advices, cribs... you name it ; even some online help or PMs. 
Yes, I agree sometimes things go a bit hugly but I don't care that much. They are not my friends and I'm not theirs, so... And I tend to wait since bugs or flaws are sorted out, if ever,before I buy a library.
Especially since they are now practicing sales and that I don't have to rely on intro prices.
I would need more to loose respect to a company.
Cinesamples April Fools joke or tweets could be a deal breaker. But I'm not even sure.
Even EastWest has not really bothered despite debatle practices on their forum.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 3, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Just wait.
> 
> How useful will a review be in a years time that just talks about a bunch bugs that don’t exist anymore?



When libraries go on sale later on there is often new reviews from the likes of Sample Library Review.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 3, 2018)

I support every opinion in this thread, because that’s just who I am. If anyone needs more validation, just PM me.


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## Dave Connor (Apr 3, 2018)

Below is exactly the type of review I would expect with a Spitfire release: A high quality, effective library that can be put to immediate and continuous use (even with a new player.) It's a simple, honest, measured review. I'm not indicting DJ, I'm saying this is what these guys have delivered over and over with very similar responses from users. The involvement of Hans Zimmer adds something that should also be expected which is an innovative and creative approach that offers new sonics and multiple ways to use and manipulate them (in a way that he prefers but also in a way that the user can personalize to taste - immediately, over time or both. That's called a bargain.) The HZ moniker far more suggests the unpredictable rather than the predictable which should put the user into a mode of discovering what's in the library rather than projecting onto it what they would like. If we all did that - we would all be disappointed. (Sorry for so many words in pointing to below.):


Stephen Baysted said:


> FWIW, I've been very happily using HZ strings on a TV series for the past 4 days or so. Not noticed many issues at all and certainly none that are show stoppers or have prevented me from working at full speed. So far I'm mightily impressed with the library: it has some absolutely stellar sounds and sublime textures; it seems extremely flexible (not quite as much bite low down in the celli and basses as the bespoke symphonic strings do), but then it has far more subtlety, warmth and weight where it really counts. As such it fits really nicely into my template and I'm looking forward to delving deeper into it as time progresses. The new software engine (they surely have to call it Merlin!) is seriously easy to use (love the resizing and patch selection). With sensible mic counts (as John G mentions above) it seems pretty light on resources - with all the Spitfire stuff I tend to use 'tree' and a little bit of 'close' if I need more focus, and maybe a touch of 'amb' too on shorts. With my game developer hat on for a moment, and knowing how software is developed, I'm really impressed they managed to get the new engine out of the gates and in such a good working state (remember PLAY anyone?).
> 
> £599 or whatever the price was is IMHO great value for what is going to be a mightily fine weapon in the palette in the years to come. Back in 2011, like a fair few chaps and chapesses, I paid a *hell* of a lot more for the Bespoke Strings and still use them every single day, so the ROI has been excellent. I don't doubt HZS will be similar in that regard...


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## NYC Composer (Apr 3, 2018)

Dave Connor said:


> Below is exactly the type of review I would expect with a Spitfire release: A high quality, effective library that can be put to immediate and continuous use (even with a new player.) It's a simple, honest, measured review. I'm not indicting DJ, I'm saying this is what these guys have delivered over and over with very similar responses from users. The involvement of Hans Zimmer adds something that should also be expected which is an innovative and creative approach that offers new sonics and multiple ways to use and manipulate them (in a way that he prefers but also in a way that the user can personalize to taste - immediately, over time or both. That's called a bargain.) The HZ moniker far more suggests the unpredictable rather than the predictable which should put the user into a mode of discovering what's in the library rather than projecting onto it what they would like. If we all did that - we would all be disappointed. (Sorry for so many words in pointing to below.):


The fact that Stephen, busy tv composer (bless him) had a 5 figure budget to buy Bespoke Strings makes his review non-indicative of what this library is worth to the average consumer.


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## Dr Belasco (Apr 4, 2018)

Grim_Universe said:


> It's nonsense. What the hell, guys? Really, how it is possible to argue about the same library for a week already? It's just a pad library with some cool features. I have only one possible explanation: it's all about the name. Hans is a really great composer, but with all your attention he really becomes a god. Are you crazy?



Absolutely. But it's all about money, free libraries, ego and sponsorship.

I know what that's like. I was once offered sponsorship from Anosul and Preperation H. But ego and pride got the better of me and I told them to stick it up their ass. Any bum can get a deal like that.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 4, 2018)

Dr Belasco said:


> Absolutely. But it's all about money, free libraries, ego and sponsorship.
> 
> I know what that's like. I was once offered sponsorship from Anosul and Preperation H. But ego and pride got the better of me and I told them to stick it up their ass. Any bum can get a deal like that.


You joke, but until you’ve written music for products like Maalox, FiberCon and Baby Alive (a doll that actually defecated and urinated) you haven’t really lived-and I have really lived. My tombstone will be decorated with garlands of...well. You know.


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## Jaap (Apr 4, 2018)

NYC Composer said:


> You joke, but until you’ve written music for products like Maalox, FiberCon and Baby Alive (a doll that actually defecated and urinated) you haven’t really lived-and I have really lived. My tombstone will be decorated with garlands of...well. You know.



Boy oh boy, I thought I had a hard time when writing music for great titles like Ladies 888 Bingo and Piggies Payout, but you win


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## Dr Belasco (Apr 4, 2018)

I was offered Piggies Payout. I just snorted and grunted in their general direction and told them it was way over my head.


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## Dr Belasco (Apr 4, 2018)

NYC Composer said:


> You joke,



No I was serious. I could've been a contender. I could've been somebody.

I could've had free Anosul for life.


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## fixxer49 (Apr 4, 2018)

Rctec said:


> And now you know how I’m feeling. I am a “Johnny one note”. Well, ok, two...If you listened...
> 
> 
> 
> It’s strings...But they are really, really quiet.



please post in the Members Compositions forum.


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## robgb (Apr 4, 2018)

Rctec said:


> It’s strings...But they are really, really quiet.


No, I'd say they're pretty loud.


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## Musicam (Apr 4, 2018)

Peace


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## blougui (Apr 4, 2018)

They are quietly loud - or loudly quiet, I'm not sure. Should ask DJ.


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## tav.one (Apr 5, 2018)

So, is the Review coming? I guess not.


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## Mundano (Apr 5, 2018)

the music industry is truncated, no more reviews of HZ Strings until new order....


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## reutunes (Apr 5, 2018)

tav.one said:


> So, is the Review coming? I guess not.


I'll just drop this here...


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## tav.one (Apr 5, 2018)

reutunes said:


> I'll just drop this here...




Loved your honest review 

(I watched just HZS part & I watch at 1.5x, in case you feel how I replied so fast..Added video to Watch Later...to watch other parts)


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## windyweekend (Apr 5, 2018)

Any review needs to correctly balance the outputs though with any issues. The issues on this are relatively few and fixable. The quality (and audacity) of the output is, however, something in its own league (as I still think HZ01/02/03 are too). I'm slowly weaving this note by working note (I'm in the Win10 camp unfortunately) into a current score and I'm having having trouble wondering how I'm going to settle using anything less going forwards. The sample quality far, far outweighs the few glitches for a 1.0 release. UIs can change easily over time, but the TBs of samples that I'm sure were recorded for this sure speak quite plainly about how good this is.

This is an incredible release from the Spitfire team one way or another.


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## Jay Panikkar (Apr 5, 2018)

"Mike from Cinesamples has logged off Twitter for a couple minutes to release a new piano library ..." LOL! 

Good stuff, I think it's cool that you cover @bigcat1969 instruments. Regarding HZS, why do you think it takes so much memory? It seems to me that it is the engine that needs so much memory because the actual "content" is sparse. Also, I think I heard something curious with the 'shorts' when you were playing through them. Are there actually 6x/8x round-robin samples? Or is it just scripted to pick up neighbouring samples and repitch them?

Another thing that I thought was very interesting: your proper review reveals that @Daniel James first impressions were mostly spot-on. So much pointless drama.


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## rottoy (Apr 5, 2018)

Paul Thomson said:


> The above (from DJ) is total nonsense.
> 
> But I’m not engaging with it as it’s pointless getting drawn into an argument with someone who desperately wants to have a row.
> 
> ...


I see that passive aggressive dichotomies runs in the Spitfire family.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 5, 2018)

reutunes said:


> I'll just drop this here...



Just watched the review, and thought it was really well done! Honestly though? I couldn't be happier about not purchasing HZ Strings. Though certain articulations sound quite good, the library as a whole seems somewhat messy, and definitely more like a beta version. For the life of me, and aside from HZ's name being on the box, I cannot figure out why this library costs as much as it does.


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## Joshua Maikawa (Apr 5, 2018)

reutunes said:


> I'll just drop this here...



Great review Reuben! Glad to see that you fairly weighed the pros and cons of the library and hit many of the same points as Daniel. I also picked up the free sounds from sonniss that you recommended


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## bigcat1969 (Apr 5, 2018)

I'm honored to be mentioned. Thanks.


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## reutunes (Apr 5, 2018)

Jay Panikkar said:


> "Regarding HZS, why do you think it takes so much memory? It seems to me that it is the engine that needs so much memory because the actual "content" is sparse. Also, I think I heard something curious with the 'shorts' when you were playing through them. Are there actually 6x/8x round-robin samples? Or is it just scripted to pick up neighbouring samples and repitch them?
> 
> Another thing that I thought was very interesting: your proper review reveals that @Daniel James first impressions were mostly spot-on. So much pointless drama.



I did have the buffer and preload settings quite high during the recording for the screen capture so I didn't get any dropouts. You could probably get away with lower numbers in real-world application. But nevertheless, it still seems to be higher than kontakt. There were occasions during my testing where even if every mic position was unloaded the engine was still showing a few gigs of memory being used - so something isn't right.

Round robins go up to eight in some articulations. There are options for layering round robins in the interface but I didn't have those switched on during the recording. Just the standard round robin behaviour.

I agree that the Samplecast review does cover many of the same points as Daniel. He had the library for a day and I've been playing with it for a week, so it looks like first impressions have held up in this case. I expanded on a few of the interface quirks in a little more detail and even checked with Spitfire yesterday to make sure they were aware of the problems. The presentation is just different I guess.


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## benmrx (Apr 5, 2018)

FWIW, I thought it was a great review.


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## tmhuud (Apr 5, 2018)

My two pfennigs worth: great review. I really feel like this review was made for me. Lol. On of my favorite sample libraries is Logria and I was hoping HZS was going to best the flautandos from it but from I can hear they are nearly identical. I’ve really not heard anything beat those from Albion II yet.


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## quantum7 (Apr 5, 2018)

reutunes said:


> I'll just drop this here...




Thank you for another honest review with both the pros and the cons on HZ Strings. Even with all the flaws though, I would still be tempted if it were not for the premium price that SF placed on this library. Does SF really need to charge that much money to make their investment back? I'm sure it cost a small fortune though to produce. I usually spend a couple thousand dollars per year on sample libraries (a few thousand over the years with Spitfire) but even the intro price is much too rich for my blood.....especially with the initial hiccups. Once it goes to $800 dollars though...wow! I really hope that they let us t least demo HZ Stings (even just 1 octave) in the future now that they have a better way to protect their libraries with the new engine. I guess in the meantime though, I'll just have to be content with my "budget-priced" Albion I, II, III, and V (my personal fav) for my Spitfire sampled string cravings. LOL


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Apr 5, 2018)

Hej Reuben, thank for the review and I appreciate that all honesty and I actually see that Daniel already pointed out a lot of similiar issues and things which just tells me that Daniel was very spot on with his own remarks about HZ Strings. The review is imo very fair as it has a balance between the positive and negative things. His final conclusions are that people who already have products like Albion or Tundra need not to get HZ Strings because a lot of the material is redundant and can be in one or another way with similiar results.


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## lucky909091 (Apr 5, 2018)

Great review Reuben!


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## tehreal (Apr 6, 2018)

reutunes said:


> I'll just drop this here...



Thanks for including info on Able Artist Foundation. So many with disabilities feel they are boxed into a life of mere survival instead of being able to dream big in other areas of life, including art.

I was happy to donate and hope others jump at the chance as well.

https://ableartist.org/


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## Geoff Grace (Apr 6, 2018)

@reutunes, I enjoyed your review and certainly appreciated a concise summary of strengths and weaknesses. It was also great to have the bugs and other disadvantages itemized in the new player, as well as a list of its assets.

While I like that you told fans of *Hans*'s bombastic sound not to expect that out of the box, I disagree with your choice to remove *Hans* completely from the equation, as decisions you applauded (the gallery strings) and criticized (the choice to record at unity gain) reportedly came from either him or his people.

I also believe it was *Hans*'s decision to bypass the Studer and go straight to digital, which would be uncharacteristic of Spitfire, but should also lower the noise floor when cranking the quiet parts.

As both Spitfire and *Hans* independently record at Air Lyndhurst and often use the same players, there's bound to be an overlap between their sounds. This library may be similar in a number of respects to other Spitfire offerings, but it was clearly a collaboration between the two parties.

Best,

Geoff


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## reutunes (Apr 6, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> While I like that you told fans of *Hans*'s bombastic sound not to expect that out of the box, I disagree with your choice to remove *Hans* completely from the equation, as decisions you applauded (the gallery strings) and criticized (the choice to record at unity gain) reportedly came from either him or his people.
> 
> I also believe it was *Hans*'s decision to bypass the Studer and go straight to digital, which would be uncharacteristic of Spitfire, but should also lower the noise floor when cranking the quiet parts.
> 
> As both Spitfire and *Hans* independently record at Air Lyndhurst and often use the same players, there's bound to be an overlap between their sounds. This library may be similar in a number of respects to other Spitfire offerings, but it was clearly a collaboration between the two parties.



I hear what you're saying - perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough in the Samplecast review. When I said I was judging the library without Hans in the picture, I purely meant that I was assessing it on it's own merits rather than being swayed by the "name" behind it.

In the review I do delve into the concept of the library and one of my considerations in the conclusion is that an uninformed consumer may purchase this library because of a certain expectation of Hans' sound. But in the main I tried to be detached from that aspect of the marketing behind the library and just focus on the sound and functions.

I don't doubt that Hans had involvement with the production process which has resulted in some lovely articulations and mic positions. However, as a composer your clients aren't buying a production process, they're buying the finished sound and don't really care how it's achieved.


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## procreative (Apr 6, 2018)

I think this whole release has ultimately divided a lot of opinion, but its two distinctly separate issues that have generated so much debate:

1. Functionality
Irrespective of whether or not you like the concept and sound its fair to say it feels like a Beta was released. I am sure they will fix most of the major issues, but (and they are not alone) its not at all acceptable to release a product with some showstopping issues. While a fix will be issued in time, I hope early adopters are not forced to re-download huge chunks of data and that it is limited to instruments and scripts.

2. Design Concept
I could gauge pretty early on the main philosophy and did not assume it would be the bombastic end of the HZ style. However I do think some of the marketing led some to misinterpret as it played a lot on the scale of the sections.

Ultimately releasing a "Signature" library teaches us one thing. If a musician is known for just one style only thats one thing, but HZ has evolved in a David Bowie kind of way over the years. Its just that the popular perception stopped at The Dark Knight.

However I do feel mainly sampling the lighter end of things is a missed opportunity given the existence of Tundra. It would have been interesting to have built some more vigorous and rhythmic stuff a la MA3 and explore ways of harnessing the power and energy a huge section like that could create playing fast.

But I don't doubt it will have its uses as is.


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## ka00 (Apr 6, 2018)

reutunes said:


> The presentation is just different I guess.



Yes, what’s on display in your review is tactful, humble honesty. The kind you’d expect from a formal review.

The style of delivery — the tone and attitude of the reviewer — makes a world of difference in how a sample maker would respond to hearing critiques of their work.


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## nas (Apr 6, 2018)

Good review, you came off fair and balanced. Whether one sees a need for an additional string library that provides the flavors on offer is another question, but I do get the impression that perhaps the release might have been a little premature and could use a little more debugging and fine tuning. I'm sure that as this library evolves, the player's UI will mature as well and become more ergonomic and streamlined.

I think what might also be cool is if SF decides to offer "add on" modules that can cover some of the "classic" Hans Zimmer articulations (whatever that may be) that some were hoping for, as well as fill in some of the articulation gaps across the different sections. I think that would go along way in providing a more comprehensive and versatile package.


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## procreative (Apr 6, 2018)

nas said:


> I think what might also be cool is if SF decides to offer "add on" modules that can cover some of the "classic" Hans Zimmer articulations that some were expecting, as well as fill in some of the articulation gaps across the different sections. I think that would go along way in providing a more comprehensive and versatile package.



Can only see that happening if they have the material already recorded (which is possible), getting 344 players back for a smaller session might be a bit uneconomical...


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## nas (Apr 6, 2018)

procreative said:


> Can only see that happening if they have the material already recorded (which is possible), getting 344 players back for a smaller session might be a bit uneconomical...



The thought did cross my mind - perhaps they did record more than they presented or that there would be enough to record for additional articulations that would make it more justified and financially feasible to do more sessions. I wouldn't necessarily hold my breath but it's an entertaining thought.


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## reutunes (Apr 6, 2018)

ka00 said:


> Yes, what’s on display in your review is tactful, humble honesty. The kind you’d expect from a formal review.



That is genuinely the first time I've ever been called "tactful" or "humble". I must be growing up - which seems a great shame!


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## AllanH (Apr 6, 2018)

reutunes said:


> ...- perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough in the Samplecast review. When I said I was judging the library without Hans in the picture, I purely meant that I was assessing it on it's own merits rather than being swayed by the "name" behind it.



I thought you expressed that point clearly. I enjoyed the review and I found it balanced. Part of the value you provide is "your opinion" and found the pro/con issues thoughtfully presented.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 6, 2018)

reutunes said:


> I hear what you're saying - perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough in the Samplecast review. When I said I was judging the library without Hans in the picture, I purely meant that I was assessing it on it's own merits rather than being swayed by the "name" behind it.
> 
> In the review I do delve into the concept of the library and one of my considerations in the conclusion is that an uninformed consumer may purchase this library because of a certain expectation of Hans' sound. But in the main I tried to be detached from that aspect of the marketing behind the library and just focus on the sound and functions.
> 
> I don't doubt that Hans had involvement with the production process which has resulted in some lovely articulations and mic positions. However, as a composer your clients aren't buying a production process, they're buying the finished sound and don't really care how it's achieved.


Damn. Well said.


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## reutunes (Apr 6, 2018)

procreative said:


> I think this whole release has ultimately divided a lot of opinion, but its two distinctly separate issues that have generated so much debate:
> 
> 1. Functionality
> Irrespective of whether or not you like the concept and sound its fair to say it feels like a Beta was released. I am sure they will fix most of the major issues, but (and they are not alone) its not at all acceptable to release a product with some showstopping issues. While a fix will be issued in time, I hope early adopters are not forced to re-download huge chunks of data and that it is limited to instruments and scripts.
> ...



I really feel like once you get over the whole "Hans Zimmer" preconception, the samples and performances are solid. There's nothing there that a little editing of dodgy samples and levelling out of the volumes won't fix.

Much more problematic for me was the engine design. Scrolling through menus for articulations and mic positions slows down the workflow greatly. Spitfire had an opportunity to really push an engine designed for modern media composers with articulations, mics and options at the touch of a button but I feel they really missed it. Before the launch of the library I had seen a little publicity about how much testing they'd done to make sure it was an intuitive experience, but it just isn't good enough (yet). Even after all the engine bugs are ironed out, unless they essentially redesign the engine accessibility and add shortcuts, it will remain an experience that gets in the way of my composing workflow. I'm not the only one, as I've had several people message me privately who have bought the library and been disappointed with the way the engine functions. And that just makes me quite sad, because how often do we see an orchestral sampling company willing to take a risk outside of Kontakt?


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## babylonwaves (Apr 6, 2018)

hey ruben, thanks for that. what you say in your review is levelled and honest and professional. i don't have the library and i find your review valuable for future buying plans.


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## StatKsn (Apr 6, 2018)

From what I've seen, I understand why HZS is not a Kontakt library. HZS has tons of microphone positions (up to 30 or so!) and Kontakt can't handle that much samples in a single .nki. Obviously, having more control on their product should be the reason too. As well, from developer's perspective, Kontakt can be a PITA when you have too many samples, throwing random crashes/slowdowns etc.

But personally speaking - derail warning - I am never a big fan of having an emphasis on many microphone positions rather than articulations/control/programming depth. I know it is Hans Zimmer's creative direction (to have myriad of microphones) but there seems to be too many obscure mic positions that has a very limited/niche use that would collect dusts. I'd rather just have close/tree/far with consistent set of articulations, good control over dynamic range, vibrato and shorts.

For example, Hollywood Strings "only" have five mics and a very limited ambience due to the recording environment - but controls and articulations are almost perfectly consistent across the board, has up to 13 layers (non-vib,vib,molto vib) then it is the only library that lets you choose finger position - which is a fantastic feature when you want a control over the tonal flow. Cinematic Strings is near-perfect consistent library as well.

Frankly, articulation inconsistency in HZS is a little off putting to me. It lets you build sections by L/C/R, yet violin R has no shorts - center has no legato - only R has harmonic waves - a section that only has bartok pizz, vice versa, and so on. Of course, nothing can't be worked around, but you'll need to specifically write for the library more than usual.

I certainly thought the library sounds gorgeous and intimate, but programming-wise I can't agree with the direction it is taking. It is a bit too experimental.


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## robgb (Apr 7, 2018)

ka00 said:


> The style of delivery — the tone and attitude of the reviewer — makes a world of difference in how a sample maker would respond to hearing critiques of their work.


So let me understand this. If you say it calmly, that's good. If you react with genuine passion, that's bad. And we should be concerned with how the developer will react. Ooooookay.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 7, 2018)

“Genuine passion.” Hmm. I sometimes argue forcefully but I’m almost always calm. Uncontrolled passion is not any more genuine than controlled passion. If it was, people would genuinely be killing each other in the streets for the smallest slight.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Apr 7, 2018)

Just some non-emotional criticism I have when taking a look at walkthroughs - the legatos really need dramatic improvement. I almost suspect that this is because the new engine might not be something (spitfire's) legato scripers are comfortable working with yet... Because their legatos generally are from what I hear from OK to stellar, never "bad" like those ones strike me. Everything I hear in my head when thinking about what I would do with this sound makes heavy usage of legatos, so they gotta be improved... Let's not sink EastWest style at Spitfire... 
I personally would want the option to control note attack. 
And also the option to either lock the volume meter or have it stick where it was (on any given articulation) when switching to another one.


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## ionian (Apr 7, 2018)

Pontus Rufelt said:


> As a customer my experience definitely will have me weary of future Spitfire releases - or at least have me waiting weeks or months beyond release. With dodgy legato, Certain RRs with very noticeably incorrect velocity responses, an engine giving many Windows 10 users really bad performance on capable PCs - it comes across as a bit of a sloppy release.



Dude, after the abortion that was HZ Piano, being wary should be your first reaction. The fact that the only response they had to releasing a substandard library was to disable comments on youtube to silence criticism, I don't understand how you can't approach any SF release without being wary.


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## blougui (Apr 7, 2018)

robgb said:


> So let me understand this. If you say it calmly, that's good. If you react with genuine passion, that's bad. And we should be concerned with how the developer will react. Ooooookay.


Thinking about it, I'm not sure I appreciate any kind of passion -or what I'ld rather call emotional reaction, with my limited knowledge of english language - when it comes to reviewing a product, or what is essentially a tool. I guess I stand clear to any emotional reaction, be it positive or negative to evaluate a product and hold back my judgement until I read/watch a more restrained review-presentation. I don't say it ain't fun but it's just I'm immediatly wary. 

Other than that,I know we're a small (but expending) club of musicians interested in VI instruments, with developpers mostly professional media musicians as well. So there's some kind of friendship involved,some sens of "we're mates". But as the dev begins to be a business man, or head of a company that hire many employees, etc. I'm thinking they should not react to any review, at least not here. And not over react, at least. it's the worst they can do, for themselves as a brand, firstly. DJ has a way to word is opinion that is 100% sure to make teeth grind (? don't know it's too idiosynchratic an expression to be understood). Ignoring it is the best way to let the possible controversy die, at least for the dev or its collaborators. 

Btw, it dawned on me that DJ uses a very distinct tone wether he's talking on his channel or when he's debating on VI.C. He knows it. Mr Zimmer should be able to evaluate that too : the public might overlapp between the 2 medias, but they are complitely the same demogaphic. 

Reuben review is... well, a review, a summarize of him using a tool for some days. I like the way he pounders his words, do not put any passion in his presentation but relies on facts with no "clownerie". That is enough for me - though it surely is way more funny  

But to each his own. 

I say it here but could write here in another thread : I think we are ridiculing ourselfves by being so passionate about this all non-affair. The only disapointing element of it all being a top-of-his-game artist mocking a young composer and questioning his workflow, work ethic and his talent. This is really bad taste, but not the 1st time he's done it here. But as I've already said :we're all humans after all. I won't stop buying from a brand because of any of that or reassess my opinion about a top professional that has never stopped to give advices and tips and good stories over here and elsewhere - it would be very immature.


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## Dr Belasco (Apr 7, 2018)

I can't see a way of using this. It's got some great sounding pad like string features and for specific film writers could work well in context. I use Tundra and that's a good library and there seems too much of the same here.

Incidentally, the HZ piano. Eons ago it seems, I pointed out in no uncertain terms that the thing looked unplayable and would be totally useless as a piano. I was informed almost instantaneously that it wasn't that type of piano and should not be considered like a normal piano but more as sound. That should be made clear at the outset. That also seems to be a problem with HZ strings for some people because they thought of a different film genre. Not different sound. Different film genre.


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## Oliver (Apr 7, 2018)

when i saw the first videos by spitfire promoting the library i sat down and played all flaut and con sord and so on side by side with Tundra, because i was wondering if this sounds the same.

well i can't say it's 100% same, but i can get pretty close with Tundra to HZS (not all articulations of course).
that was for me the point not to invest.
if i wouldnt have Tundra, evos etc. maybe then...


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## reutunes (Apr 9, 2018)

blougui said:


> Thinking about it, I'm not sure I appreciate any kind of passion -or what I'ld rather call emotional reaction, with my limited knowledge of english language - when it comes to reviewing a product, or what is essentially a tool. I guess I stand clear to any emotional reaction, be it positive or negative to evaluate a product and hold back my judgement until I read/watch a more restrained review-presentation. I don't say it ain't fun but it's just I'm immediatly wary.
> 
> Other than that,I know we're a small (but expending) club of musicians interested in VI instruments, with developpers mostly professional media musicians as well. So there's some kind of friendship involved,some sens of "we're mates". But as the dev begins to be a business man, or head of a company that hire many employees, etc. I'm thinking they should not react to any review, at least not here. And not over react, at least. it's the worst they can do, for themselves as a brand, firstly. DJ has a way to word is opinion that is 100% sure to make teeth grind (? don't know it's too idiosynchratic an expression to be understood). Ignoring it is the best way to let the possible controversy die, at least for the dev or its collaborators.
> 
> ...



I've tried to keep out of the whole Daniel / Hans debate. Both have made amends now so it's all good. However, I have received many messages on this forum and via email wondering why Daniel got a much stronger reaction to his video than I did to the Samplecast review. Most of the points we both raised are essentially the same and if anything I went into even more detail about the flaws of version 1.0 of the engine, pointing out specific bugs. I think it's really interesting to see how opinion can be so different on essentially the same subject, when it's presented in two distinctly different ways. It's certainly a lesson I'm taking forward when thinking about I perceive content on the internet - food for thought.


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## blougui (Apr 9, 2018)

Food for thought indeed. One could think that much of the rage was dissipated already when you published your review,or at least it's also one thing you could take into account.


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## vms (Apr 9, 2018)

reutunes said:


> I've tried to keep out of the whole Daniel / Hans debate. Both have made amends now so it's all good. However, I have received many messages on this forum and via email wondering why Daniel got a much stronger reaction to his video than I did to the Samplecast review. Most of the points we both raised are essentially the same and if anything I went into even more detail about the flaws of version 1.0 of the engine, pointing out specific bugs. I think it's really interesting to see how opinion can be so different on essentially the same subject, when it's presented in two distinctly different ways. It's certainly a lesson I'm taking forward when thinking about I perceive content on the internet - food for thought.


Partly because Daniel compared HZS with other NON-Spitfire libraries side by side, eg: CSS, Jaeger
on the other hand you only compared HZS with other Spitfire libraries.
You know, what Daniel did would hurt Spitfire much much deeper....


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## Geoff Grace (Apr 9, 2018)

I didn't watch *Daniel*'s long video, so I'm not sure if what I'm about to say is relevant.

There are multiple studies which conclude that _how_ we say something registers with people much more than _what_ we say. In other words, if *Daniel* said the same things as you, but with much more passion in his voice, then the reaction is also likely to be much more passionate than if it were spoken calmly.

Best,

Geoff


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## Vik (Apr 9, 2018)

reutunes said:


> However, I have received many messages on this forum and via email wondering why Daniel got a much stronger reaction to his video than I did to the Samplecast review. Most of the points we both raised are essentially the same and if anything I went into even more detail about the flaws of version 1.0 of the engine, pointing out specific bugs. I think it's really interesting to see how opinion can be so different on essentially the same subject, when it's presented in two distinctly different ways.


I was an editor of a music tech magazine for a while, so when reading through others' reviews, I've had a good chance to reflect on that question. The kind if reviews we looked for were the same kind of reviews that I saw when I watched the Samplecast review: not too long, detailed/many specific examples, critical-but-fair, and educational in a good way.

If we were contacted by writers who seemed biased (in an unfair way) or who wrote way too long reviews, we would either edit the reviews or not publish them. Some/many may appreciate very, very long reviews, and maybe even prefer 'first looks' over regular reviews. But regarding the DJ 'review' (from what I've seen of it): it was extremely long - and (again, based on the parts I have seen) seemed to have a general negative bias, mixed up with strong opinions about what the Hans Zimmer sound was about, what "we" expected from a HZ string library and so on. 

To Geoff: you may be right, but in this case, it seems to me that this was a about a slightly different variation of what you described. If an article/podcast etc seem to be loaded with (in lack of a better term 'negative energy', I think it's more likely to trigger 'negative energy' in thew viewers/listeners as well. And this has nothing to do with whether the reviewer has many critical/negative comments about the product. I am one who in the past have been very frustrated with having purchased something from Spitfire (Mural 1/2) - only to discover that not only were these products, in several ways, unfinished products (they had eg severe legato problems), but the problems weren't really fixed even if I waited several years. Nevertheless, I don't think the DJ 'reviews' would have triggered so many strong/negative reactions if the same viewpoints have been presented in an as critical, but less 'negativistic' way. 

Long first-looks can be very useful, and if people think they are too long or have a too strong negative bias, they can only skip watching them. But I don't think the strong/negative reactions on DJs clips exist because they were presented with 'passion'. It's good that DJ does his stuff exactly they way he wants to, and great that he has many YT-followers which wants exactly the kind of thing he delivers. But I'm not surprised if the result is that some companies won't give him NFR versions (but rather give them to others who may be equally critical - or more critical - but present their viewpoints in a different way). Or if his stuff trigger negative reactions. 

Then again - I don't know why anyone would spend three hours on reading/watching a comment to the comments on his review, so I may be looking for something else than his followers do. There are many reviews which in, say, an hour or less tell me all I need to know about a library, or which could have done that in two hours. But IMHO this isn't mainly about length - it's more about whether the reviewer can remain critical and 100% honest about the good and bad sides of a product without disappearing too much into negativism, repetitiveness and [sorry for the negativistic term  ] ...mere 'babbling'.


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## vms (Apr 10, 2018)

IMO, the point is that after watching Daniel's video, people would likely buy CSS or Jaeger.
Whereas after watching Reuben's video, people would likely buy Albion 1 or 5, SF still get the money.
Had Reuben been the 1st HZS reviewer and compared HZS with many other non-SF libraries side by side,
the outcome would probably have been different.


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## blougui (Apr 10, 2018)

No it wouldn’ have been different. The storm had already passed by when Reuben published his video. It’s when he asked whether he should wait or not till any major bugs had been adresses that it stirred the shit a tad more, considering DJ went to comment on Reuben’s cautious approach of a new review.
Anyway anyhow, DJ is a polarizing (?) public person. And with a big following enough to bother Spitfire. I would have done the same open the box, out of the blue, no one would have care.


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## Vik (Apr 10, 2018)

Well, I don't think waiting a few days for an announced updates would be 'cautioning' at all; can't see the problem with doing that. For me, it would be a more interesting to see a review based on an quick update meant to fix known issues in the release version, because it would focus on other/remaining issues instead. 


vms said:


> IMO, the point is that after watching Daniel's video, people would likely buy CSS or Jaeger.
> Whereas after watching Reuben's video, people would likely buy Albion 1 or 5, SF still get the money.


I guess all potential buyers check out different multiple libraries anyway - and multiple reviews - so I'm not sure that would be the outcome. And it's common that reviewers compare a product with similar products from rivalling companies. I doubt that this is a problem for Spitfire or that they would expect something else. So (pardon my ignorance)... why is that 'the point', vms?


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## Tfis (Apr 10, 2018)

Maybe some developers rethink their release-strategy, if their "public betas" will get crappy reviews.


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## vms (Apr 10, 2018)

Vik said:


> Well, I don't think waiting a few days for an announced updates would be 'cautioning' at all; can't see the problem with doing that. For me, it would be a more interesting to see a review based on an quick update meant to fix known issues in the release version, because it would focus on other/remaining issues instead.
> 
> I guess all potential buyers check out different multiple libraries anyway - and multiple reviews - so I'm not sure that would be the outcome. And it's common that reviewers compare a product with similar products from rivalling companies. I doubt that this is a problem for Spitfire or that they would expect something else. So (pardon my ignorance)... why is that 'the point', vms?


yea, they would likely check out many other reviews, and that leads to another question....
Who else have done a detailed side by side comparison with other non-SF libraries?


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## Daniel James (Apr 10, 2018)

vms said:


> yea, they would likely check out many other reviews, and that leads to another question....
> Who else have done a detailed side by side comparison with other non-SF libraries?



Spitfire are not the only company selling libraries. If you watch the video, If I have a complaint about something not working particularly well, I use an example of a library that does that thing particularly well (I believe in your example I was showing libraries that can do fast 16ths) it was a point to demonstrate the importance of various lengths of short articulations. The people watching have the ability to purchase the other libraries I compared HZS to so if anything, if I find something the particular library can't do and the viewer wants that thing, I am offering up an alternative where they can find that.



Vik said:


> There are many reviews which in, say, an hour or less tell me all I need to know about a library



The first looks are usually as long as the library is deep. I don't sit down and think "lets aim for three hours" I open the library and I cover everything it has. Thats something you will find on my first look that is harder to find anywhere else, a look at _all_ the articulations. And again these were done on live stream, its like spending time with a friend and going over the new thing. If I am disappointed I mention it, as I would if I was just going through it. I feel _actual_ reactions are valuable, I get not everyone feels the same but that genuine honesty is something I personally find value in. Again there would not been a word about any of this had I said nothing but good things. Many libraries I have covered before have exceeded my expectations and got me excited. This one disappointed me, yet no long discussion about how I do what I do, if I am qualified to do video, how shit I am as a composer... When I say good things. 

I really do feel a lot of the _anger _comes from breaking a confirmation bias. If someone likes Spitfire libraries and I don't, they feel the need to defend, even to themselves, that Spitfire are the best for whatever reason, perhaps they know the developers personally, perhaps they are into the company for a few thousand dollars and don't want to admit to themselves they released a less than perfect product.. Its a natural human, emotional, tribal response. Its why political debates are so heated. Why sport fans fight each other. If what you say conflicts with a truly held belief by someone the reaction is usually substantial, and we have seen here.

I do think that had the reaction not been so strong against my video, or I had not done one in the first place, Reuben would have got a bit more stick than he did. 

But as I displayed more of an actual reaction in one direction over the other its easier to now, after the reviews agree with my points, for people who initially disagreed with me and said what I was saying was wrong, to shift the conversation from: "What you are saying is wrong" to "Well it's not what you said its _how_ you said it." I feel most of the people who are debating already had their minds made up about the library and I was initially an easy target to rally against. Thats why I got a lot of personal jabs at how I do them....be it rushed, fumbling,not spending enough time with it etc...because what I was saying didn't match with the answer they had in their own head. Which they are allowed to do, liking a sample library is subjective. But if it doesn't match your personal conclusion you naturally get on the defensive. If you read the debate I spent more time explaining mine than simply restating it. I was explaining why I disliked the things I disliked and referenced the video. Most people didn't have a decent counter argument about my actual opinion, just my right to have the one I did....which is what lead me to believe I was dealing more with a cognitive dissonance defence rather than a factual error debate. Had I said or did something wrong I would have admitted to it, but no one provided any evidence other than "Daniel James is a shit composer" which didn't work as a position for me.



Tfis said:


> Maybe some developers rethink their release-strategy, if their "public betas" will get crappy reviews.



I believe this is one of the reasons reviews exist in the first place, to create a degree of accountability for developers in any field. It forces them to release better quality, or face being called out for it.

-DJ


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## JohnG (Apr 10, 2018)

You know, if the leading film composer out there had written about me what Hans wrote about you, notwithstanding the apology, I would consider backing off slightly.

Speaking for myself, my objections to your conclusions didn't arise from a preconceived idea, nor from personal animus, no matter what you say or think DJ. I just thought your points were rushed, hasty and sloppy, and so the overall result was uninformed and self serving, rather than helpful to me as a potential purchaser.

Please don't put words in others' mouths.


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## itsyourself (Apr 10, 2018)

I can't believe, after all the fuss you stoked, you are still like a dog with a bone, repeating ad nauseam your points, for the hundred thousandth time. Reuben's review was succinct, to the point, fair and didn't criticise the developers or their abilities. In ten minutes. Learn from it. and just leave it alone, you've had your say.


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## Mundano (Apr 10, 2018)

this thread can be closed, please, let's move on!


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 10, 2018)

Confirmation bias goes both ways...


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## ism (Apr 10, 2018)

There are interesting and important critical principles at play here about how youtube is disrupting the traditional genre of the 'review'.

But might I respectfully suggest that the community would be better served by not continuing the debate in the way it has been framed on this thread (the title itself is, in retrospect, unnecessarily provocative to the point of clickbait). Instead we could revisit the debate on of nature of sample library criticism - (ie defining common understanding of the 'review' vs 'first look') in another thread.

And perhaps after a cooling off period.

And in a way this avoids the personal animosities that have developed here.


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## tmhuud (Apr 10, 2018)

Dear god. Please end the madness...


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## blougui (Apr 10, 2018)

itsyourself said:


> I can't believe, after all the fuss you stoked, you are still like a dog with a bone, repeating ad nauseam your points, for the hundred thousandth time. Reuben's review was succinct, to the point, fair and didn't criticise the developers or their abilities. In ten minutes. Learn from it. and just leave it alone, you've had your say.


People keep commenting his review, in a rather negative way : how come he wouldn’t have his say ? Really, I don’t get it. 
If one doesn’t want to keep him defending his point of view, one must stop criticizing him. Or do not do it on a public forum.


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## blougui (Apr 10, 2018)

JohnG said:


> You know, if the leading film composer out there had written about me what Hans wrote about you, notwithstanding the apology, I would consider backing off slightly.
> .



Wow, that was low !
Thankfully, DJ is not you and vice versa. And thankfully Dan isn’t one to back off easily when his work, talent are being questionned. Remember the french working composer Zimmer mocked ? The man deleted his account ans asked for his posts to be deleted, not even trying to defend himself or his work. 
Or to read a proper apology.
Zimmer is all too human as we all know here. I’m glad Dan defended his point of view. In the end, it was better for both men - for their participation on the forum I mean and the way we appreciate them. 


Why try to give Dan a lesson Zimmer tried, in a very bad manner to give, to no avail ? We ´re not at school here.

DJ’s 1st look are not my thing. Watched it, had a bit of fun but overall I did’nt like it. But it would not appeared to me to call him out or criticize his unprofessional ways to show things.

Why watch his Twitch sessions if you think they are not on par with your values ? Why dare criticizing them « ad nauseam » as itsyourlself put it.

Yes, he surely is talkative : his own Hybridtwo Project Bravo was more than 2hours. That didn’t bother a lot of folk - save to the ones who ask for a shorter one. The man has a lot to say - and to repeat  

Live with it or I’m adraid Dan will haunt the HZS threads forever ahah !!!

Erik


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## ism (Apr 10, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> I really do feel a lot of the _anger _comes from breaking a confirmation bias. If someone likes Spitfire libraries and I don't, they feel the need to defend, even to themselves, that Spitfire are the best for whatever reason, perhaps they know the developers personally, perhaps they are into the company for a few thousand dollars and don't want to admit to themselves they released a less than perfect product.. Its a natural human, emotional, tribal response. Its why political debates are so heated. Why sport fans fight each other. If what you say conflicts with a truly held belief by someone the reaction is usually substantial, and we have seen here.



A quick example here - Daniel's assertion here is actually quite a dense statement of literary-critical theory spanning a number of recently circulating ideas in reader response theory, social psychology and quite a bit more.

I don't think Daniel's wrong to invoke some of these theories, exactly, but I don't think that its quite right either. Because although maybe some people are reacting in the way Daniel theorizes, I think its way too simple and way too general.

So just to point out how complex this is - if I'm honest, then without attacking anyone, my own gut react to reading this theory is that it seeks to reduce my own quite complex and considered reaction to basically kind of knee-jerk response to a cognitive dissonance, descending quickly into a brute tribalism. I'm not saying that tribalism isn't happening, or that I'm beyond succumbing to it. But just that in my own reactions to what bothers my about this are themselves fairly complex to unpack, and not reducible to such a convenient theory.


The point I wish to make here is just that what we're debating here is legitimately very complex. I think there's lot of value for the community to unpack some these issues - as they're a function of many things, including the increasing technical and artistic complexity of sample libraries, and natural an inevitable growing pains in ways to talk about these ever more complex (sample library) media, within ever more complex media (youtube + vi-c). 

And recognizing this complexity, I'd suggest that the framing of this particular thread is entirely the wrong framing in which to constructively and respectfully unpack these issues.

So how a new thread - after a cooling off period - called something like "What I talk about when I talk about Sample Libraries".


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## Daniel James (Apr 10, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Please don't put words in others' mouths.



Tad ironic don't you think.

I will definitely admit that something is lost in translation from live to video. When you are on a live stream, 3 hours is short. I still maintain it wasnt rushed however John. I was live for 5 hours. I think that was a fair shake.



JohnG said:


> Speaking for myself, my objections to your conclusions didn't arise from a preconceived idea, nor from personal animus, no matter what you say or think DJ. I just thought your points were rushed, hasty and sloppy, and so the overall result was uninformed and self serving, rather than helpful to me as a potential purchaser.



Well at first it was all because I hadn't spent enough time with it. Now it just rushed and hasty because.....what? I spent 5 hours going through every articulation? I sometimes feel like you just pipe up to get into it with me. Ever since I disagreed with you on EW PLAY. You havn't agreed with a word of mine since. And your objection to what I do shifts with the accuracy of your initial complaint. Whatever it takes just to disagree.



Puzzlefactory said:


> Confirmation bias goes both ways...



Totally agree. I disliked it and so I find comfort in reviews that agree with my conclusion. And I am not trying to make people who like it dislike it, I am just pointing out that a lot of the argument against my dislike is aimed at me as a composer not at my points about why I had issues with it. I was just trying to point out why these kinds of threads get heated and long. Like John above, there are people who like to remind me that they don't like me or what I do. 



ism said:


> But might I respectfully suggest that the community would be better served by not continuing the debate in the way it has been framed on this thread (the title itself is, in retrospect, unnecessarily provocative to the point of clickbait). Instead we could revisit the debate on of nature of sample library criticism - (ie defining common understanding of the 'review' vs 'first look') in another thread.
> 
> And perhaps after a cooling off period.



I agree, I will leave it here. I am absolutely happy to get back into this another time! I do actually think the subject is one worth having.



ism said:


> And in a way this avoids the personal animosities that have developed here.



You would be surprised how long some people can hold a grudge. 



itsyourself said:


> I can't believe, after all the fuss you stoked, you are still like a dog with a bone, repeating ad nauseam your points, for the hundred thousandth time. Reuben's review was succinct, to the point, fair and didn't criticise the developers or their abilities. In ten minutes. Learn from it. and just leave it alone, you've had your say.



Well to be fair I posted my opinion on a product, the fuss came from those who reacted with what can only be described as hostility to that opinion. I repeat something when someone challenges or questions the same point again. And if for some reason people want to challenge the same points again I am happy to oblige them with a response. It is a debate worth having for sure. If you don't want to talk about the topic simply stop coming into the debate. I never understand those who complain about things they were never forced to be involved in, in the first place. There are literally thousands of other threads. You dont HAVE to come to this one just because its got a new post.

-DJ


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## ism (Apr 10, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> I will definitely admit that something is lost in translation from live to video. When you are on a live stream, 3 hours is short. I still maintain it wasnt rushed however John. I was live for 5 hours. I think that was a fair shake.



I great example of something we could usefully and respectfully debate on another thread - really tying to build a a common understanding of what 'first look' is. 

For instance, I think the criticism of a 'first look' being 'rushed' is, in my understanding of the genre, completely moot. It's not that its wrong to criticize a first look as 'rushed', its just that it doesn't make sense in the first place - it's the wrong category of concept to apply to a 'first look'. 

And in this sense I think much of the combativeness flows from a lack of common understanding the media and genres at work here.


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## Daniel James (Apr 10, 2018)

ism said:


> Because although maybe some people are reacting in the way Daniel theorizes, I think its way too simple and way too general.



Absolutely a generalisation! I have an interest in the human mind and the way it reacts to situations. So while these debates can be tough to have sometimes, I do like to study certain people in the debate and figure out why they are engaging the way they are. In some cases is fascinating and I do feel that for a significant portion a lot of it was a tribal mentality sparked by challenging a belief they held close, if even subconsciously.



ism said:


> So just to point out how complex this is - if I'm honest, then without attacking anyone, my own gut react to reading this theory is that seeks to reduce my own quite complex and considered reaction to basically kind of knee-jerk response to a cognitive dissonance, descending quickly into a brute tribalism. I'm not saying that tribalism isn't happening, or that I'm beyond succumbing to it. But just that in my own reactions to what bothers my about this are themselves fairly complex to unpack, and not reducible to such a convenient theory.



Worth pointing out that because the theory is convenient it doesn't mean its not correct for the current situation. And of course its not a blanket theory that will apply to everyone. There will be people who just dislike me or Hans feeling emboldened to be able to take a swipe due to the chaotic nature of the debate. And there were plenty of people who just disagreed and left it at that. I was more referring to the people who would not relent in their disapproval, that is when I think one has triggered a more tribal cognitive response. Again just to be sure, not everyone. But I feel I saw enough evidence in a few of the people involved.



blougui said:


> Live with it or I’m adraid Dan will haunt the HZS threads forever ahah



As I said above I am always happy to oblige someone who wishes to debate a certain aspect of what I have done. If people didn't keep asking I wouldn't keep answering xD

-DJ


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## germancomponist (Apr 10, 2018)

Daniel, I would never justify myself! You have made your statements what you stand for. Man, compose new, never heard music with a never heard sound!!! 
I have watched your career with great joy, and I wish it to continue with you!


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## nas (Apr 10, 2018)

oh brother - here we go again.

V.I. Control needs a facepalm emoji


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## robgb (Apr 10, 2018)

ka00 said:


> The word 'calm' comes from your interpretation of what I wrote, so don't feel I need to defend that.


My biggest objection is the being "concerned with how the developer will react" part. If you're doing a review or a first look or whatever you want to call it, passionate or dispassionate, you shouldn't be worrying about what the developer might think. Ever.


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## fixxer49 (Apr 10, 2018)

nas said:


> oh brother - here we go again.
> 
> V.I. Control needs a facepalm emoji


what is dead may never die


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## robgb (Apr 10, 2018)

ka00 said:


> I agree with that. What I'm saying is don't be surprised if the guy whose name is on the box you're unboxing reacts emotionally to you if you present your points with a certain tone or attitude.
> 
> But this all seems like bygones. Everyone has made peace. Robby, we cool, baby. I just hadn't seen this post until today as I had the ignore filter on.


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## Geoff Grace (Apr 10, 2018)

Best,

Geoff


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## Musicam (Apr 10, 2018)

A Chance? For me, Spitfire .


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## kitekrazy (Apr 10, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> I am offering up an alternative where they can find that.
> 
> -DJ



Music Tech and CM do that in their reviews.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 10, 2018)

Mundano said:


> this thread can be closed, please, let's move on!



You could just ignore it. Did anyone think this would die and we move on? Nope not happenin'.


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## benmrx (Apr 10, 2018)

The first rule of HZ Strings is...


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## windyweekend (Apr 10, 2018)

StatKsn said:


> - I am never a big fan of having an emphasis on many microphone positions rather than articulations/control/programming depth. I know it is Hans Zimmer's creative direction (to have myriad of microphones) but there seems to be too many obscure mic positions that has a very limited/niche use that would collect dusts. I'd rather just have close/tree/far with consistent set of articulations.


I used to have this same philosophy until I really started experimenting with HZ01. I found that individual mics on their own might be particularly useless (bottle) until you mix them with others. Suddenly good drums started to become great drums, and my scores started going up in quality. Before buying HZS, just seeing the list of mics had me salivating over the prospect of having a tool I'd still be experimenting with four years from now. Having now got it, I feel totally justified because the subtleties in the mics are just as good (even better) than HZ01, and I'm already spending hours finding new degrees of warmth and width, which is what will really give me choice in a string library. Why buy 5 libraries when you can have one that has massive versatility.

Maybe I'm seeing something here others aren't, but I wouldn't be so quick do diss the mics - they're total awesomeness.


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## windyweekend (Apr 10, 2018)

Sorry about my last post folks - I was four pages behind everyone else when I posted it. It's about the library, if anyone is still talking about that.


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## robgb (Apr 10, 2018)

windyweekend said:


> It's about the library, if anyone is still talking about that.


What library?


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## nas (Apr 10, 2018)

fixxer49 said:


> what is dead may never die



Reminds me of Nosferatu.


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## StatKsn (Apr 11, 2018)

windyweekend said:


> I used to have this same philosophy until I really started experimenting with HZ01. I found that individual mics on their own might be particularly useless (bottle) until you mix them with others. Suddenly good drums started to become great drums, and my scores started going up in quality. Before buying HZS, just seeing the list of mics had me salivating over the prospect of having a tool I'd still be experimenting with four years from now. Having now got it, I feel totally justified because the subtleties in the mics are just as good (even better) than HZ01, and I'm already spending hours finding new degrees of warmth and width, which is what will really give me choice in a string library. Why buy 5 libraries when you can have one that has massive versatility.
> 
> Maybe I'm seeing something here others aren't, but I wouldn't be so quick do diss the mics - they're total awesomeness.



If anything, I do think mics matter more with percs than they would with strings. This is especially true for drums where majority of the resulting timbre is actually coming from reverberation. I also do see that extra mics are probably meant to be mixed with others.

The problem I am having with extra mics is that most of times I struggle to find an extra audio signal that doesn't exist in basic mixes like close/tree, i.e. something that can't be replicated with a combination of dynamic EQ/stereo shaping/formant adjustment/IR verb. It is known that sordino strings can easily be created by an EQ match or compressing a certain mid-to-high band, since muting doesn't add much extra signal, and honestly I can't tell which one is real by A/B test (I am saying this having personally recorded/mixed/attended in a mid-sized orchestral recording session several times). The same can be said with most of extra mic positions I've heard. You can make a difference with mixing several mics but I would have more control with more or less the same result with a multi-band effect chain...

However, I think more divisi/spot mics would not hurt given it would capture a different player performance in the ensemble. Also percs are in the whole different dimension!


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## JohnG (Apr 11, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Well at first it was all because I hadn't spent enough time with it. Now it just rushed and hasty because.....what? I spent 5 hours going through every articulation?



DJ you keep missing my point. 

Having spent more than five days, not hours, with HZ Strings, I am still discovering what's great about it, and it's not running through it at breakneck speed. 

I've been using it for actual compositions, rather than just a play through, and I think that's where one can start to understand what's special about it, how it differs from other libraries, and why it's so remarkable. To take one example, the value of all those mic positions is not something that I think it's easy to discover outside the context of writing and arranging.

You've also said or implied that my objections to your review come from some old grudge or some personal thing. Since I don't know you and have never met you, it obviously isn't personal. The only parallel with HS Strings is that you relentlessly repeat and defend yourself no matter what.

Even with HZ telling you that you missed the entire point of the library ("your view is fundamentally unreliable" and "flawed from the beginning") and describing you as a "carnival barker" (among other things), you soldier on and even try to suggest that the consensus is on your side based on one other review. The point of his apology was to put a line under it, but since that time, how many multi-paragraph posts have you made on this forum alone defending your original approach and either denigrating the motives of those like me who disagree or insisting that because you have some supporters you are totally vindicated? 

He was graciously giving you a way to end your campaign. But no.

I am using the library to write music, not talk in a stream for five hours straight. For that purpose it is remarkable; maybe, after further use I could conclude it's spectacular.


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## vms (Apr 11, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Having spent more than five days, not hours, with HZ Strings, I am still discovering what's great about it, and it's not running through it at breakneck speed.


Please make a video, show us how you use HZS, show us the greatness of HZS.


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## windyweekend (Apr 11, 2018)

JohnG said:


> the value of all those mic positions is not something that I think it's easy to discover outside the context of writing and arranging.



Got to agree with that. They can be very subtle and the true value might not be easily extracted without some deep experimentation and combinations. There's a lot of flexibility in here.


JohnG said:


> I am using the library to write music...For that purpose it is remarkable; maybe, after further use I could conclude it's spectacular.


Got to ditto that one too. Occasionally I'll use new libraries simply because I feel I ought to because I bought them. The more I'm using this one, the more I'm jettisoning all my old favorites (including SSS and many Albions), which I never expected. This is getting better and better the more I'm using it. Even with the few bugs out there this might be proving to be my best investment in years. 

I too am guilty of having a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the initial bugs, but once you look past these, this really is turning into something totally gorgeous. To use an analogy, the launch was kind of like showing up at a luxury mansion for sale and the first experience was finding a cat shit on the doorstep. Once you get over that and get inside, the cave of wonders gets deeper and richer the further you go (so much that you won't want to come out). Spitfire are busy with their cattyscoop anyway, so the bugs won't be an issue for long.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 11, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Even with HZ telling you that you missed the entire point of the library ("your view is fundamentally unreliable" and "flawed from the beginning") and describing you as a "carnival barker" (among other things), you soldier on



Probably the best reason to "soldier on". It's great that he's not willing to chicken out because Mr. Famous Man and his bottleholders are trying to bully him.

More power to you @Daniel James. I would never make hour long videos about something, argue endlessly on the internet and perhaps you really didn't "get" HZS - who knows - but you have the right to not "get" stuff, see things differently and the "wrong way" and maintain your opinion!


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## Anders Wall (Apr 11, 2018)

blougui said:


> Remember the french working composer Zimmer mocked ?


The one that called mr. Zimmer a liar?
Only asking.
But if someone called me a liar in public, I'd prob. be a bit upset.

Best,
Anders


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## rlw (Apr 11, 2018)

The more I work with HZ Strings the more I love it. Its adds another dimension to my VI sound palette that I previously did not have. I love the mic positions because they give me a more natural way to add dimension to the sound versus all the reverbs I have in my tool kit. I don't own a TC3000 (would love too), but I now can manage the enchanted musical noise of Air Studio as a sound design element that I could never do with my virtual enhancement tools. This is much like the battle to bring analog sound back into my texture palette. The raw sound of Air Studio, the mass of moving air from 60 cellos playing supper Sul Pont or Col Legno Tratto. I would have loved to have been there as some of the wonder scores have been created. I will never have the joy that HZ and others have experienced to have been in the mist of that live sound. But HZ Strings gives me another powerful asset to create music that I can imagine in my mind. When I first got LCO, I struggled to increase my musical vocabulary, as I did with Orchestra Swarm. But these new textures expanded my ability to create new blended sounds with subtle mixtures in new recipes that I could never have done before. Just a slight touch of EVO at the right moment. I agree with HZ about the small versus the large, the intimate versus huge. The cellos in the galleries was worth the price of admission to me. HZ and Spitfire. I am a fan. Keep stretching, keep reaching. I applaud your contribution to the VI community. Thank you.. Thank you... Thank you..


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## Rctec (Apr 11, 2018)

Anders Wall said:


> The one that called mr. Zimmer a liar?
> Only asking.
> But if someone called me a liar in public, I'd prob. be a bit upset.
> 
> ...


This went on for months....not publicly on the forum, but he kept writing me. Asking for proof of my capabilities. Very annoying. He is working on a complete thesis on it. Or maybe not, after Bruce Fowler -head Orchestrator on that project- explained to him that he just did a “takedown”or verbatim transcription of my orchestration...One day I’ll publish the complete unredacted exchange of messages under the title “A Composer’s Life”  bring Popcorn!


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## ghandizilla (Apr 11, 2018)

I have popcorn. When do we start? (What the h*ck about this "prove yourself" thing ? Just relistened to Interstellar. How could this be not a single mind intuition in the first place?)


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## Daniel James (Apr 11, 2018)

JohnG said:


> DJ you keep missing my point.
> 
> Having spent more than five days, not hours, with HZ Strings, I am still discovering what's great about it, and it's not running through it at breakneck speed.



I didn't miss your point at all. I too have used this library at length (you are phrasing it as if I did the video and never touched it again), You saw my first 5 hours sure but I have used it in _actual_ work too John. I managed to get in a few episodes of a TV show while having this debate. And as I have said in the videos (if you care to watch before tearing apart its content) *I actually like the library*. I just think you keep bringing up some steep learning curve or depth which is being used as a copout for the aspect which may not be perfect...ie "it sounds great but the articulation list is inconsistent across sections" - "THATS BECAUSE YOU RUSHED THROUGH IT, ITS ALL ABOUT THE MIC POSITIONS". You use time as a reason to cover for its flaws. All libraries have flaws and more time wont fix them. If HZS has a flaw I use a library which doesnt have that flaw.

You see _my_ point? spending more time with the library wont change the aspects of the library which didn't click with me.* I already like the sound and the mics*, as I actually said in my video (if you watched it). I have over 20 string libraries by this point, so I think I have a pretty good understanding about what I actually have in this library, again more time spent with it doesn't seem to have changed any of my initial issues (*just so we are clear AGAIN I have no issue with the sound quality of it*).

There we go I highlighted the points you seem to keep missing somehow.

And again I am happy to stop talking about all this shit. But I will however respond to any comments about me if they are worth addressing. So lets not be hypocritical about it John. I will stop "relentlessly repeat[ing]" myself when you stop calling me out for the same thing we have discussed a million times already. This goes both ways.

Also its a shame even after Han's apology you are still choosing to use those initial words against me. To somehow position yourself above me so you can tell me what I should and shouldn't do. I will do as I do, regardless how many names you would like to call me. I'll not let playground mentality define what I do with my life.

-DJ


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## Kyle Preston (Apr 11, 2018)

DJ & JohnG, I’m buying you guys a drink next time I’m in LA (probably not a Margaux ) - we’ll talk this out because I think the internet is letting the conversation down. Avatars knit picking each other with such scrutiny when there’s not really that much disagreement other than a matter of taste. Wine can fix that...


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## NoamL (Apr 11, 2018)

I see sampling as a 3d volumetric space

One dimension, "Tallness" let's say, is the number of microphone positions. "Width" is the number of patches, sections and articulations available. And "Depth" is the number of switchable samples available within each articulation due to dynamic layers, round robins, selectable legato transitions etc - what they used to call "deep sampling."

Any way you slice it, adding to any of these dimensions adds costs to the library... more samples to prep and edit etc.

What I've noticed about all the user demos so far is that they sound different. There is the possibility to really sculpt *YOUR* sound instead of having a fingerprinted, recognizable sound to the library. And, this can be achieved without using EQ or any other tool that risks adding artificiality to the sound. The ability to put different mics in the surrounds, etc... there's a lot to explore here. This is an advantage of "tallness" that I hadn't considered too seriously before.

I still feel like depth is the ultimately important dimension however. Depth is what frees you from "writing to samples." For example in CSS there is a velocity sensitive legato transition selector and I can use that to control, slur by slur, exactly how fast the transitions are. And it's discrete, not modeled or scripted by cutting or stretching one legato transition to different lengths. Every sample is real.


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## blougui (Apr 11, 2018)

Rctec said:


> This went on for months....not publicly on the forum, but he kept writing me. Asking for proof of my capabilities. Very annoying. He is working on a complete thesis on it. Or maybe not, after Bruce Fowler -head Orchestrator on that project- explained to him that he just did a “takedown”or verbatim transcription of my orchestration...One day I’ll publish the complete unredacted exchange of messages under the title “A Composer’s Life”  bring Popcorn!



Wow !
No, I don’t know this story, I guess we’re not talking about the same man - the one I’m refering to was ridiculed by Piet and you because of how terrible his attempt at mocking up an Elgar line was. It was rather a « yup, just tried that line with this new VI » kinda thread, in all ingenuity. If I remember correctly.
He couldn’ take the heat, I guess because he ´s a working media composer - he has also written a concerto that is somewhere on YT, recorded live with the orchestra.

What Inmeant is that mr Zimmer is like any of us (though so much more talented, ahah) : he can be harsh about his distates or exasperation or you name it and, given the chance, apologize thereafter for having gone a bit too far.
DJ had backed off like the composer I was talking about, he would have never heard any apology or a more sensible and friendly comment afterwards.
On VI.C (I wouldn’t go as far as knowing who Zimmer is away from this forum) Hans is all too human, thankfully.

sorry for my poor attempts at being intelligible, everyone. Not native english speaker by any stretch.


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## rpaillot (Apr 11, 2018)

≈


blougui said:


> Wow !
> No, I don’t know this story, I guess we’re not talking about the same man - the one I’m refering to was ridiculed by Piet and you because of how terrible his attempt at mocking up an Elgar line was. It was rather a « yup, just tried that line with this new VI » kinda thread, in all ingenuity. If I remember correctly.
> He couldn’ take the heat, I guess because he ´s a working media composer - he has also written a concerto that is somewhere on YT, recorded live with the orchestra.



Yeah Hans's talking about the french guy who remade the star wars trailer...(and nicely, btw ) He acted like a jerk.

On behalf of all french composers, I give you my sincere apologies Hans!


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## ism (Apr 11, 2018)

NoamL said:


> One dimension, "Tallness" let's say, is the number of microphone positions. "Width" is the number of patches, sections and articulations available. And "Depth" is the number of switchable samples available




I love all of these metaphors of space and dimensionality and colour that are emerging, it reminds my of my haylicon days as a quantum field theorist, where I would spend my days pondering things like "what the hell does it mean to for a theory to operate it 2.5 dimensions plus an infinitesimal bit of additional extra dimension".


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## blougui (Apr 11, 2018)

rpaillot said:


> ≈
> 
> 
> Yeah Hans's talking about the french guy who remade the star wars trailer...(and nicely, btw ) He acted like a jerk.
> ...


Haven’t followed that thread, sorry :-(


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## woodsdenis (Apr 11, 2018)

reutunes said:


> I've tried to keep out of the whole Daniel / Hans debate. Both have made amends now so it's all good. However, I have received many messages on this forum and via email wondering why Daniel got a much stronger reaction to his video than I did to the Samplecast review. Most of the points we both raised are essentially the same and if anything I went into even more detail about the flaws of version 1.0 of the engine, pointing out specific bugs. I think it's really interesting to see how opinion can be so different on essentially the same subject, when it's presented in two distinctly different ways. It's certainly a lesson I'm taking forward when thinking about I perceive content on the internet - food for thought.


Interesting, undoubtably a few old scores being settled by some. Typical of internet forums in general where people attack the person rather than addressing the actual point they were making.


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## woodsdenis (Apr 11, 2018)

fretti said:


> WHO DOESN‘T like Daniel?? I love him science I saw his Cinebrass, CS2 etc. Videos. And I always loved his music/hybrid style, think I won‘t ever be able to write like he does (obviously everybody writes differently but I am such a noob when it comes to hybrid stuff...). Is it really so much for people that he criticized a company they love that they see a need to attack him personally and question his ability (as a successful composer) to share valid points about a library? Seriously asking here, as I can‘t imagine it is simply about the way he presented it...


What Reuben said, why the completely different reactions to the same critiques ? I like Daniel, know his style of reviewing etc. Some around here obviously don't. Not much more complicated than that. There is a kind of a pitchfork mob mentality that expands exponentially.


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## fretti (Apr 11, 2018)

woodsdenis said:


> What Reuben said, why the completely different reactions to the same critiques ? I like Daniel, know his style of reviewing etc. Some around here obviously don't. Not much more complicated than that. There is a kind of a pitchfork mob mentality that expands exponentially.


Yes, I mean I understand that people will disagree with certain opinions. But I can't understand why people project their disagreement with a specific opinion so much on persons in this whole discussion. Found it very interesting how the majority of the reactions in this forum towards Daniels first look was about him not understanding what it was about, or what Hans Zimmer means, or how his style of music isn't Hans' and he therefor can't speak out reasonable points about this library...some psychology student should probably write a paper about that...


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## ism (Apr 11, 2018)

woodsdenis said:


> What Reuben said, why the completely different reactions to the same critiques ? I like Daniel, know his style of reviewing etc. Some around here obviously don't. Not much more complicated than that. There is a kind of a pitchfork mob mentality that expands exponentially.



I like Daniel too. And I feel I understand his style, and value his videos.

But will all respect I think the social, psychological and literary-critical dynamics at work here are far from simple. And I think there are legitimate critiques to be made from all sides (if only we could find more constructive was to express them)

For instance, I'm sure you didn't mean it like this, and please take this suggestion as a constructive critique, but its very easy to read your comment as lumping all of us attempting to article legitimate critiques as mindlessly tribal drones reaching for our pitchforks without proper thought. (Exaggerating for effect of course. )

My main point is that I think sometime its more constructive to allow things to be just be very complex. But maybe this is my the tribalism of my own "the world is extremely complex..." tribe, vs the "can't you stop overthinking things that are actually perfectly simple" tribe.


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## woodsdenis (Apr 11, 2018)

ism said:


> I like Daniel too. And I feel I understand his style, and value his videos.
> 
> But will all respect I think the social, psychological and literary-critical dynamics at work here are far from simple. And I think there are legitimate critiques to be made from all sides (if only we could find more constructive was to express them)
> 
> ...


I don't think its simple at all and yes I did generalise for brevity.


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## fretti (Apr 11, 2018)

ism said:


> I like Daniel too. And I feel I understand his style, and value his videos.
> 
> But will all respect I think the social, psychological and literary-critical dynamics at work here are far from simple. And I think there are legitimate critiques to be made from all sides (if only we could find more constructive was to express them)
> 
> ...


If you mean my comment, it wasn't meant in the direction of people who were arguing with Daniel in general. I just found that there were a lot of comments questioning his integrity as a reviewer. If one has valid points I like to read a discussion, I also didn't agree with every point Daniel has made, but -as it was stated several times in this forum- "As it was said by xyz there is a learning curve with this library to do xyz" or so, I personally don't see that as a comment to push a conversation/discussion/controversion forth, at least not when getting repeated multiple times (might be seen differently by others).

I'm sorry if it sounded like I don't value/or accept criticism towards Daniel or any other member on this forum, that was certainly not what I wanted to express, also didn't want to put it in a "it is that simple, why does everybody do that?" scheme. As Hans and Daniel have shown they are (at least in the end) good sports about critisicm towards them, so I don't want to trigger such a discussion once again.
Just wanted (as the biggest point) express that I don't see where it should go in a discussion when so much is based on the person himself rather than the product/his points (goes obviously in both directions as there were also many people who just dislike Spitfire or Christian/Paul and shot in their direction, wich isn't good for the discussion either)...


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 12, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Tad ironic don't you think.
> 
> I will definitely admit that something is lost in translation from live to video. When you are on a live stream, 3 hours is short. I still maintain it wasnt rushed however John. I was live for 5 hours. I think that was a fair shake.
> 
> ...



I didn’t specifically mean you when I said that.

I just meant that for every person getting worked up because your video goes against their confirmation bias (in favour of Spitfire), there’s an equal amount of people getting worked up because it supports their confirmation bias (against Spitfire).


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## Mathieu A (Apr 12, 2018)

rpaillot said:


> ≈
> 
> 
> Yeah Hans's talking about the french guy who remade the star wars trailer...(and nicely, btw ) He acted like a jerk.
> ...



Did I miss your election as represent of all french composers, Romain ? 

He didn't act like a jerk and he didn't call HZ a liar, he just expressed a sarcastic disbelief but as the moderators erased all his messages, I can understand that you're confused about what really happened.


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## markleake (Apr 12, 2018)

@Mathieu A. Nope. I remember that incident, it was a bit more than just "sarcastic disbelief".


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## rpaillot (Apr 12, 2018)

Mathieu A said:


> Did I miss your election as represent of all french composers, Romain ?
> 
> *(ahah  ) *
> 
> He didn't act like a jerk and he didn't call HZ a liar, he just expressed a sarcastic disbelief but as the moderators erased all his messages, I can understand that you're confused about what really happened.



I think I remember easily what was said . Saying one time "I don't believe you" , "could" be acceptable , to some extent. But even the first time was reallllyyy sarcastic and disrespectful , then he kept attacking for hours. = I want your mockup, your midi file, you couldn't master "jazz" like this , etc...


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 12, 2018)

rpaillot said:


> I think I remember easily what was said . Saying one time "I don't believe you" , "could" be acceptable , to some extent. But even the first time was reallllyyy sarcastic and disrespectful , then he kept attacking for hours. = I want your mockup, your midi file, you couldn't master "jazz" like this , etc...




Oh yeah, I remember that. The guy refused to believe that HZ could write a big band track. 

Ridiculous.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Apr 12, 2018)

Rctec said:


> This went on for months....not publicly on the forum, but he kept writing me. Asking for proof of my capabilities. Very annoying. He is working on a complete thesis on it. Or maybe not, after Bruce Fowler -head Orchestrator on that project- explained to him that he just did a “takedown”or verbatim transcription of my orchestration...One day I’ll publish the complete unredacted exchange of messages under the title “A Composer’s Life”  bring Popcorn!



Hej Hans and others,

Was that the Cyrill case? I remember I was holding back then "his side". Not because I don´t appreciate honest feedback but because I felt that the way how it was communicated wasn´t appropiate. I remember (my memory works still pretty well thus I don´t have access to the files anymore because the threads were deleted) but Cyrill Orcell posted a midi mockup of an elgar track and I remember it started that Piet then critisized his track as being a bad rendition _but with the style and words piet is known for pretty well here_. Then you chimed in and don´t let me start a general debate again about that, but you said something like "That his mockup was effortless, and done without passion and talent" There were quite a couple of those remarks made by you. I don´t liked it back then just the way how you transported that feedback not because of the general consensus that sure everybody was clear that this was no good mockup (I felt similiar), but the chosen words as I felt that this is nota good way how to communicate to a (maybe random) guy who wants to have a feedback in a music forum where musicians helping musicians in order to improve his mockup skills in that regards. You also didn´t gave him suggestions how to improve his rendering.
I contacted him after he left Vi Control and told him just to keep on doing and learning because I felt that the way this thread went was also unfair to this guy. Sure he then attacked you and questioning your abilities. Well, remembering that thread still very good I can understand his disspapointment. Sure that email thing there (which I didn´t know until know) was unnessacary from his side. But I think: It is not always the words and critic in general but the way how you transport it is much more important. I honestly since then had a big dislike to you, and a few others here just because of that thread. I thought during the last 2 years a lot about that stuff. You know your word in that forum weighs for some people or many people a lot so imo you should be an example. YOu know what I mean? I felt in that case you werent showing your best sides. And be sure about that: I always will first hold sides for the weaker ones who oppose against the strongs. Thats my nature.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 13, 2018)

Not sure, but I believe here HZ is referring to a guy who called himself Headshot (?). I didn't really follow the whole thing, but I guess that was some weird episode overall.

I hope I'm not mixing things up, but the other thing was about a gentleman named Cyril Orcel, who was trashed and vilified by this guy "re-peat" in his usual insolent manner, which some people disappointingly applauded - even more so when HZ chimed in to comment on the questionable quality of Orcels sequencing / programming effort. In the end, Orcel kinda got freezed / bullied out of VI-C. Which I don't think was what HZ intended, but I can see that when one gets publicly taunted and a very big and respected name seemingly joins in, it might get hurtful and very discouraging for some.

Wasn't the finest hour of this forum. I generally don't like shooting people down for their stuff. I guess honest feedback is OK when people are interested in it, but it's a shame that the tone of delivery sometimes doesn't imply genuine goodwill and camaraderie on the "critics'" part.


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## Jay Panikkar (Apr 13, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Not sure, but I believe here HZ is referring to a guy who called himself Headshot (?).


Headshot was the guy who did the superb Star Wars trailer rescore, I think. Don't know much about any drama associated with it, though.


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## Michael Antrum (Apr 13, 2018)

I seem to remember Headshot (if that was the correct name) posting that if Hans 'proved' to his satisfaction that he wrote and ochestrated the piece himself, then he would buy the HZ Masterclass.

A pretty snide and unpleasant remark by any standard I think. I do sometimes find it amazing that some people who are so skilful and talented when it comes writing, orchestrating and putting emotion into music are so bloody tone deaf when it comes to using words.

I like this quote:
_
I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. - Maya Angelou._


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Apr 13, 2018)

Ah okay, Headshot...well, then I missed that.


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## StatKsn (Apr 13, 2018)

mikeybabes said:


> I do sometimes find it amazing that some people who are so skilful and talented when it comes writing, orchestrating and putting emotion into music are so bloody tone deaf when it comes to using words.



If one weren't a bit of a screwball to start with, they won't even think of getting into art/media in the first place, no? 

Also my respect for Rctec.


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## windyweekend (Apr 13, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Wasn't the finest hour of this forum.


Nuff said.....Bit like the GOT red keep around here some days. The public executions can be quite exhausting.

We're all here to help each other, right, or is that the other forum?

I find it bazarre that folks chatting about the hard rock VIs are all quite civil and friendly, but everyone's at each other's throats in the classical instrument threads.


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## fretti (Apr 13, 2018)

windyweekend said:


> Nuff said.....Bit like the GOT red keep around here some days. The public executions can be quite exhausting.
> 
> We're all here to help each other, right, or is that the other forum?
> 
> I find it bazarre that folks chatting about the hard rock VIs are all quite civil and friendly, but everyone's at each other's throats in the classical instrument threads.


I know a few Punk, Metall (all kinds almost) and Rock players, and they are some of the nicest people I have met (even though stereo typical, most people think differently of these music genres and because of the players/fans appearances). Whereas many people involved with classical music (I know a lot of people personally there because of my parents and close friends of the family) tend to get into quite hefty discussions about different aspects of composers (and their traits etc.), compositions, playing styles, genres, stagings (of operas) etc... and often come across as arrogant and uninterested in other opinions (just my humble observation in the real world though)

Not stating that everyone is (there are many nice people also in the classical world) and definitely *don't want to imply that any of the classical people on this forum have any of these traits* (as I don't know any of them personally, so please don't hate me for my "statement"), but it is something I saw quite a few times now in the real world...
Encountered many helpful threads and people around this forum, wich lead into quite interesting discussions, thoughts and statements from many others.
So it is actually all the more interesting how the whole HZ Strings discussion got out of hand so quickly (at least for some people; as many tried to stay reasonable and had a lot of good arguments and thoughts)


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## StatKsn (Apr 13, 2018)

@fretti

Make classical people giggle even a little at my joke during sessions is one of the biggest, cruelest, merciless challenges I've ever had in my life.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 13, 2018)

Classical people reek of dampness and dust.


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## ism (Apr 13, 2018)

I assume we're just making a point about tribalism here, no?


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## Rctec (Apr 13, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Hej Hans and others,
> 
> Was that the Cyrill case? I remember I was holding back then "his side". Not because I don´t appreciate honest feedback but because I felt that the way how it was communicated wasn´t appropiate. I remember (my memory works still pretty well thus I don´t have access to the files anymore because the threads were deleted) but Cyrill Orcell posted a midi mockup of an elgar track and I remember it started that Piet then critisized his track as being a bad rendition _but with the style and words piet is known for pretty well here_. Then you chimed in and don´t let me start a general debate again about that, but you said something like "That his mockup was effortless, and done without passion and talent" There were quite a couple of those remarks made by you. I don´t liked it back then just the way how you transported that feedback not because of the general consensus that sure everybody was clear that this was no good mockup (I felt similiar), but the chosen words as I felt that this is nota good way how to communicate to a (maybe random) guy who wants to have a feedback in a music forum where musicians helping musicians in order to improve his mockup skills in that regards. You also didn´t gave him suggestions how to improve his rendering.
> I contacted him after he left Vi Control and told him just to keep on doing and learning because I felt that the way this thread went was also unfair to this guy. Sure he then attacked you and questioning your abilities. Well, remembering that thread still very good I can understand his disspapointment. Sure that email thing there (which I didn´t know until know) was unnessacary from his side. But I think: It is not always the words and critic in general but the way how you transport it is much more important. I honestly since then had a big dislike to you, and a few others here just because of that thread. I thought during the last 2 years a lot about that stuff. You know your word in that forum weighs for some people or many people a lot so imo you should be an example. YOu know what I mean? I felt in that case you werent showing your best sides. And be sure about that: I always will first hold sides for the weaker ones who oppose against the strongs. Thats my nature.




...and you where quite right, Alexander. Truly, I got quite carried away by it and shouldn’t have been so fucking rude and brutal in my response. I seem to reserve my most unforgivable transgressions against human kindness to late night rants on the Internet. 
Of course, since this was a discussion on Elgar’s “Nimrod”, little did I know that I would end up a year later working with the same piece for my sins, and probably through my work inflaming the same sort of reactions from a multitude of others.
“Headshot” (I think the alias tells you all you need to know about how that went...) was quite a different thing.


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## StatKsn (Apr 13, 2018)

Please don't get me wrong or read too much into this, but getting impersonated (in a literal sense) can be very uncomfortable and awkward, even if it was done professionally, and same can be said for getting one's musical style emulated. It just feel... not exactly good.


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## Stu Lloyd (May 9, 2018)

fretti said:


> I know a few Punk, Metall (all kinds almost) and Rock players, and they are some of the nicest people I have met (even though stereo typical, most people think differently of these music genres and because of the players/fans appearances). Whereas many people involved with classical music (I know a lot of people personally there because of my parents and close friends of the family) tend to get into quite hefty discussions about different aspects of composers (and their traits etc.), compositions, playing styles, genres, stagings (of operas) etc... and often come across as arrogant and uninterested in other opinions (just my humble observation in the real world though)
> 
> Not stating that everyone is (there are many nice people also in the classical world) and definitely *don't want to imply that any of the classical people on this forum have any of these traits* (as I don't know any of them personally, so please don't hate me for my "statement"), but it is something I saw quite a few times now in the real world...
> Encountered many helpful threads and people around this forum, wich lead into quite interesting discussions, thoughts and statements from many others.
> So it is actually all the more interesting how the whole HZ Strings discussion got out of hand so quickly (at least for some people; as many tried to stay reasonable and had a lot of good arguments and thoughts)



Funnily enough, my genres of choice are Punk and Orchestral with little in between. Many people I know just shrug off the word 'punk', but I see the hidden beauty behind the distorted guitars. I love the high energy, but played in acoustic form, some are works of art that convey great messages.


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## Parsifal666 (May 9, 2018)

Spitfire, why not? I'm a nobody, but you might (if you haven't already) check out Composer Cloud first. It's a terrific opportunity.

When it comes to buying Spitfire stuff (and this actually goes for anything, really), please do your homework before buying, and I mean LEVELHEADED, NOT-INSANELY-CAFFEINATED homework. Hit youtube and the developer's site/forum with a vengeance. This greatly reduces the risk of buyer remorse.

Try to keep the caffeine and Tramadol at a minimum...this is your dream you're investing in, friend.


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