# Anyone an ASCAP guru?



## nutotech (Aug 27, 2015)

A library owner I've known for years is a huge BMI advocate. Even though his company has both ASCAP and BMI publishing companies, he favors BMI. I'm ASCAP.

According to him, _*any*_ PRO will pay on a correctly filed cue sheet. However, when I checked ASCAP's website, I see that they sample only a small and select group of cable stations every six months. Is this true? Does this mean that the only way I'm paid by ASCAP is if they survey one of the channels where I have music? Really considering switching to BMI.

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

Thanks.


----------



## RiffWraith (Aug 27, 2015)

nutotech said:


> they sample only a small and select group of cable stations every six months. Is this true?



That does not sound right. I personally get paid from cable stations every three months (and I am sure I am not special), which means that the six-month time frame does not make any sense. Do you have a link where it says this?



nutotech said:


> Does this mean that the only way I'm paid by ASCAP is if they survey one of the channels where I have music?



That much is true; if you have music on a network, you will not get paid perf. royalties if a) ASCAP does not have a contract with that particular network, and b) that particular network is not surveyed (can't think of why they wouldn't be if there is a contract). But you still need to straighten out what is above.

You can always call them, or fill out a member services inquiry asking about this, and requesting more details. Just be aware, it may take some time for them to get back to you if you go the latter route.

Also, have a look at this:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-picture/920399-ascap-bmi.html

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-picture/904744-changing-your-pro.html

Cheers.


----------



## nutotech (Aug 27, 2015)

RiffWraith said:


> That does not sound right. I personally get paid from cable stations every three months (and I am sure I am not special), which means that the six-month time frame does not make any sense. Do you have a link where it says this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Here's the ASCAP page:
http://www.ascap.com/members/payment/cablesurveys.aspx

Are they saying that this survey is for promos, PSA's and commercials? Or is this their survey method for all music on cable? I know they pay on any Network TV. Really confused by this info.

Totally know about getting answers from ASCAP, Riff. (n) Ergo asking you guys. For the number of tracks I have out there, and knowing cue sheets are being correctly filled and filed, I should see more of those gawd-awful single line $.29 payments.  

Will check the gearslutz links--thanks.


----------



## chillbot (Aug 27, 2015)

Those gearslutz threads seem very ASCAP-weighted. I personally believe BMI to be 100x better than ASCAP but I'm biased. You will obviously find people who argue both sides and in reality BMI is probably only like 2x better than ASCAP (joking) (sort of). I can't answer your question above but I have a lot of experience with both if you have any specific questions about the differences. Why wouldn't you ask ASCAP first before posting here? Don't they have a member services number?


----------



## jeffc (Aug 27, 2015)

That's just for commercials. At this point, almost every cable channel is paid on a census for underscore. Meaning, it will show up (6 months from the close of the quarter of the performance). Only some really off brand tiny cable stations might still pay on survey. But honestly, on those stations, the audience is so small that it probably pays less than 1$ per minute, so you're not missing out on much. Now regarding ASCAP vs BMI payments, you'll kind of hear it both ways. Some say BMI is better for film/TV with higher cable rates, but ASCAP had a nice bonus on network shows that rated well for a while. I kind of think it all evens out over time, so I'd go where you had more of a relationship with someone, as that will help at some point. 

One big change in the past few years at Ascap - they changed the weighting of songs vs feature performances. Before that, any song on a cue sheet was paid as a feature. Great for songwriters, but sometimes unfair as it was just a background use that ended up getting 5 times the royalty of the background underscore. This was recently changed, which in turn, bumped up the rate on background instrumental a bit. Good for composers. Bad for songwriters. If I was a band guy who wrote songs and licensed, this would be the only case where I'd definitely say that BMI might be better for you - although they can enact the same change eventually, as they both tend to follow/mimic each other to keep it all balanced out.

J


----------



## RiffWraith (Aug 27, 2015)

nutotech said:


> Here's the ASCAP page:
> http://www.ascap.com/members/payment/cablesurveys.aspx



Right - that's telling you the surveys are done every three months, not every six months, as your op said.



nutotech said:


> Are they saying that this survey is for promos, PSA's and commercials? Or is this their survey method for all music on cable?



That is a good Q. First, the article says, _survey of music used in commercials on cable services -_ which leads you to believe that it's only commercials, but then the article goes on to say, _For commercials and cable services...._ - so what does that mean exactly? What is "cable services"? It's very unclear. But I am positive that they do surveys for ALL music on any and all cable networks they have contracts with every three months.

Cheers.


----------



## nutotech (Aug 27, 2015)

jeffc said:


> One big change in the past few years at Ascap - they changed the weighting of songs vs feature performances. Before that, any song on a cue sheet was paid as a feature. Great for songwriters, but sometimes unfair as it was just a background use that ended up getting 5 times the royalty of the background underscore. This was recently changed, which in turn, bumped up the rate on background instrumental a bit. Good for composers. Bad for songwriters. If I was a band guy who wrote songs and licensed, this would be the only case where I'd definitely say that BMI might be better for you - although they can enact the same change eventually, as they both tend to follow/mimic each other to keep it all balanced out.
> 
> J


Same thing happened with Radio promos and themes. Jeff. Reason I joined ASCAP in the first place was they DID pay on radio. BMI only paid for :30 in the clear. Last year ASCAP changed the Radio promo/theme Credit from 100% to .03%. Huge haircut. 

Member Services is a crap shoot. Have called many times with mixed results. Either 1). they never return a call 2). The info provided is wrong 3). You get the "let me check on that and get back to you" response. Have a lot more faith in you guys and your experiences.


----------



## kurtvanzo (Aug 27, 2015)

I checked into both ASCAP and BMI many years ago and found BMI actually pays more for bigger names (to get them to sign up) but less for lesser known or first timers. I thought that was unfair and so went with ASCAP, which, at the time, paid the same across the board. I figured that was a fair and more honest way to run the business.

Through ASCAP I've had shows pay in the US (cable and Network) as well as many countries overseas (Europe, Asia, Australia) and many stations were obscure. Granted, these were TV shows, not commercials or promos, but they seemed to find stations from all over the world playing episodes and paid accordingly. Never had a problem.


----------



## ehrenebbage (Aug 30, 2015)

chillbot said:


> Those gearslutz threads seem very ASCAP-weighted. I personally believe BMI to be 100x better than ASCAP but I'm biased. You will obviously find people who argue both sides and in reality BMI is probably only like 2x better than ASCAP (joking) (sort of). I can't answer your question above but I have a lot of experience with both if you have any specific questions about the differences. Why wouldn't you ask ASCAP first before posting here? Don't they have a member services number?



Hey! If I'm not mistaken, I met you at a BMI function a couple of years ago. I think we write for the same company...

I have had a good experience with them, but I'm struggling to keep my ever-expanding catalog organized and BMI doesn't offer many tools to help. How do you keep track of your massive catalog, and has BMI proven to be helpful in that regard?


----------



## chillbot (Aug 30, 2015)

ehrenebbage said:


> Hey! If I'm not mistaken, I met you at a BMI function a couple of years ago. I think we write for the same company...
> 
> I have had a good experience with them, but I'm struggling to keep my ever-expanding catalog organized and BMI doesn't offer many tools to help. How do you keep track of your massive catalog, and has BMI proven to be helpful in that regard?



Yup for sure. What do you mean by keeping your catalog organized? I guess I have 20,000+ tracks with BMI but I don't really worry about it much.... I write 95% of my tracks for specific shows so I just track the shows and airdates and make sure I'm getting paid for them in an excel spreadsheet. I also do a lot of the cue sheets myself which helps.


----------



## ehrenebbage (Aug 30, 2015)

chillbot said:


> Yup for sure. What do you mean by keeping your catalog organized? I guess I have 20,000+ tracks with BMI but I don't really worry about it much.... I write 95% of my tracks for specific shows so I just track the shows and airdates and make sure I'm getting paid for them in an excel spreadsheet. I also do a lot of the cue sheets myself which helps.



Aha! I thought it was you. Nice to have come across your posts here. Lots of helpful insight and info. 

So, I haven't been keeping a spreadsheet. Useful tip #1. Thanks!

A couple of other guys have also said that, after a while, they just had to stop worrying about it. I'd like to feel that way but I'm not quite there. Seems like I could tighten up my ship before I let go of the wheel a bit.

I'm usually writing for specific shows as well, but have been writing more general library cues to help update some of the roots/pop stuff. Either way, the cues don't seem to get registered with BMI until they show up on a cue sheet. Here are some things I'm trying to sort out:

1. I write cues for a show, but for one reason or another they don't get used on the show and therefore aren't registered with BMI via cue sheets. The cues find their way to a different show without my knowledge and are used throughout the season, but the cue sheets are inaccurate and my cues aren't listed (and therefore aren't registered with BMI).

2. I rarely even get to see the cue sheets, let alone do them myself. BMI will only provide them to me for a fee unless I can point to a specific error. My cues are in tons of shows and I'm not sure how to even begin to track accuracy, especially when they get used in shows other than those for which they were written. Have you found an efficient way to track uses for cues in their general library? I've had BV and segment theme cues entered as BI's a number of times, as well as outright omissions. 

To bring it back to the topic...

The ASCAP vs BMI (and increasingly SESAC) debate has no end. Lots of different opinions on the subject, but I'm really curious to hear yours. You must have as much experience with them as anybody. Is there something specific that makes them a better choice for you?

Cheers!


----------



## chillbot (Aug 31, 2015)

OK off topic but here we go:

The spreadsheet I use logs episodes and airdates that's it. From left to right: airdate, network, show title, episode season/number, episode title (this is very important!), with an 'X' for when the cue sheet is finished and submitted and an 'X' for when I get paid for the episode. You can get the cue sheets if you try hard enough and are enough of a pain in the ass. Not from BMI or ASCAP, but from the company who does the cue sheets, first, or from the production company, second. If needed, get the company who you submit tracks for to get the cue sheets from the production company. Whoever you are writing for and/or submitting tracks for should always have the cue sheets.

My spreadsheet has logged maybe 5,000 episodes.... it sounds like a lot of work but it isn't spread over 15 years, hardly takes any time at all. When a series airs just look up the airdates and episode titles and write them down, they are widely published on the internets. Of the ones I should have gotten paid for, there are perhaps 40-50 that I didn't. I fought for every one of them but at some point it becomes a losing battle of your time and they were (mostly) smallish cable episodes that fell through the cracks for one reason or another. Even though I have the cue sheets in hand and the airdates I still couldn't get paid for whatever reason and finally it was easier just to give up.... it happens. However, in the past 4-5 years I don't think I've missed getting paid on a single episode. This is mostly because the submission methods are getting more efficient, especially with programs such as soundmouse, which I use a ton.

Now of those episodes, I have watched maybe 3% of them. Do you intent to audit every show that uses your music? At some point you just have to trust the cue sheet. You mention BV vs BI... how would you ever know if a cue should be listed as BV or BI unless you watch the episode and check? If you can even hear it the way TV is mixed these days. Just because a track of yours has vocals doesn't automatically make it a BV... they could be using a mix without vocals (if available), or looping a part of the track that doesn’t have vocals, or mashing the vocals so far down into the mix that even BMI or ASCAP would never pay you for a BV because for all practical purposes it's just an instrumental. Furthermore, do you know what a BV is paying these days? About 10-15 years ago it was pretty standard, BV paid roughly 6x what BI paid for both ASCAP and BMI so everyone was stuffing vocals into everything they could. But the PROs caught on and now it seems like these rates are changing twice a year. You never know. What you really want are VIs, which we put down anytime the music is featured without dialogue or SFX and those pay a premium rate. Which is different from the old definition of "must be performed on camera or audible to the people on camera".

So it's not so much "stop worrying about it" but "wtf can you do". Unless you want to create or check every cue sheet yourself? Tell me if I'm missing something I know there are agencies that will track stuff for you but I feel like it's the same thing, just a matter of $$ instead of time.

I don't think this is your problem though... your problem is #1 above: "The cues find their way to a different show without my knowledge and are used throughout the season, but the cue sheets are inaccurate and my cues aren't listed." This is not the way this should work, someone is doing it wrong.... no one should be using your cues without your knowledge, or if it's understood that they are allowed to, then the cues should be properly credited. This is not a BMI or ASCAP problem. BMI is doing their job, but there's nothing they can do if you're not credited on the cue sheet. If the cue sheets are correct the system works. See?

We could probably start a separate thread on this if you have more questions.

Back on topic:

I am very biased towards BMI. They have done a lot for me above and beyond what they need to do so I guess it's personal. On a more practical level, I find their statements vastly easier to read and decipher than BMI... with ASCAP I can never figure out what I am getting paid for or why, with BMI it’s always very clear.

Aside from that, I’ve seen guys switch from one to the other and vice versa for years and years and I always recommend against it. They tend to ebb and flow... one pays more for this and one pays more for that but in the end it balances out. One very big composer left BMI for ASCAP because FOX was paying half what ASCAP was and as a result BMI’s rate for FOX shot through the roof for the rest of us. Years later it balanced out, now it changes every quarter. If you tend to have music in a wide variety of things: cable, network, internet, international.... in the end it will balance out and BMI and ASCAP will pay the same. It’s like stocks, you can’t check them every day you need to look at the yearly picture. Also I believe in trusting the system to work and not trying to milk every last penny, like switching back and forth between the two or putting your wife down on the cue sheet (guilty, I did it once... not proud... worst idea ever).

The one caveat is that is that IF you only do ONE THING you can generally look at that ONE THING that you do and see which is paying more for it. I have a friend who literally writes for one show (with me) and he is getting completely screwed by ASCAP vs what I’m getting through BMI. In this case I’m suggesting he switch because he’s been getting screwed over a period of 4-5 years and possibly another 4-5 years to come.


----------



## ehrenebbage (Aug 31, 2015)

chillbot said:


> OK off topic but here we go:
> 
> The spreadsheet I use logs episodes and airdates that's it. From left to right: airdate, network, show title, episode season/number, episode title (this is very important!), with an 'X' for when the cue sheet is finished and submitted and an 'X' for when I get paid for the episode. You can get the cue sheets if you try hard enough and are enough of a pain in the ass. Not from BMI or ASCAP, but from the company who does the cue sheets, first, or from the production company, second. If needed, get the company who you submit tracks for to get the cue sheets from the production company. Whoever you are writing for and/or submitting tracks for should always have the cue sheets.
> 
> ...




Fantastic. Thanks very much!

You touched on a couple of things that I'd love to follow up on...I'll start a new thread.

Again, my experience with BMI has been largely positive. I have a couple of folks to call when I need to sort things out and they respond right away. There are things I wish they would do differently but I have very little basis for comparison with the other PRO's, so BMI might very well be the better choice.


----------

