# Looking for a script...



## Pzy-Clone (Jul 13, 2008)

So im basicaly looking for a script that can alter the attack time of the first note played, in conjunction with using scripted legato and other tools.
i find that it would be very usefull to have a adjustable attack on the first note in a sequence , especially when set up with other scripting functions, like Kotoris Midi filter or other alternation or repetition tools.

any way to acheive this ?


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## Big Bob (Jul 13, 2008)

You may be looking for something simpler than this but, SIPS 2 includes a new articulation script which supports 'ghost' notes. The way this works is that you can start a legato phrase with a 'silent' articulation and then continue the phrase with an audible articulation. This causes the first audible note of a legato phrase to have the same kind of attack that the 'inside' notes of the phrase will have.

BTW SIPS 2 is in final beta testing and just about ready for release (except that I just added one new feature that must be documented :lol: ).

God Bless,

Bob


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## Pzy-Clone (Jul 13, 2008)

great , thats brilliant and exactly what i need...does it work automatic, or does one have to press a switch every time it is needed, ala Vsl?

anyway, Sips is great, im looking forward to it indeed! :D


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## Big Bob (Jul 14, 2008)

Pzy-Clone @ Sun Jul 13 said:


> great , thats brilliant and exactly what i need...does it work automatic, or does one have to press a switch every time it is needed, ala Vsl?
> 
> anyway, Sips is great, im looking forward to it indeed! :D



Articulations in SIPS 2 can be selected with either a dual-bank keyswitch configuration or MIDI program change events *or both if desired*. As to making the 'ghost' note feature 'automatic', I suppose that one could add some code to the 'starter script' to modify the way ghost notes are played but I'm not quite sure what you mean by automatic :? What criteria would the script use to decide when the first note of a legato phrase was to be played normally or as an inside note?


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## Pzy-Clone (Jul 14, 2008)

well, i was thinking in terms of just a simple ON\OFF function realy...since the need for having a legato starting note defined in a pathc is pretty constant ,usualy it is needed when setting up a different sound as the initial starting note, hence the need for a follow up and constant legato note option, on a different program.

That makes sense to me , at least.


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## Big Bob (Jul 14, 2008)

Pzy-Clone @ Mon Jul 14 said:


> well, i was thinking in terms of just a simple ON\OFF function realy...since the need for having a legato starting note defined in a pathc is pretty constant ,usualy it is needed when setting up a different sound as the initial starting note, hence the need for a follow up and constant legato note option, on a different program.
> 
> That makes sense to me , at least.



Sorry but if you answered my question it 'sailed over my head' :lol: . Since music is only a hobby of mine, maybe you are using terminology that I'm not aquainted with. For example, I haven't the faintest idea of what a *pathc* is :oops: 

Just what, in terms of things like note spacing, duration, etc. would the script use to determine when to play the first note of a phrase legato or normal? Unfortunately, scripts don't know anything about musical moods and such so we have to distill the decision-making process down to much more elementary conditions.

What could be done, for example, would be to write some front-end code that would allow you to specify with a single key that the next phrase played should be played starting with a legato note. However, this still requires that you hit this key when you want this to occur. I think you are asking the script to hit this key for you by some sort of musical analysis and if so, you need to specify more precisely what you think this analysis consists of (in elementary, computer-like terms).

As the TV robots always used to say, 'sorry but that doesn't compute' :lol: 

God Bless,

Bob


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## Pzy-Clone (Jul 14, 2008)

nono, its just my spelling thats over you head lol.
Well, you are making this too complicated...

"Just what, in terms of things like note spacing, duration, etc. would the script use to determine when to play the first note of a phrase legato or normal? "

Well, i ALWAYS need the first note to behave like legato , therefor i would need some way of just setting this to On or off, without having to do anything additionally.

All that i need is a way to make the first note in a kontakt program (also called patch sometimes i guess..) behave like it was the second note in a legato phrase, as opposed to a starting note.

This means that the Sips cross fade (the attack portion) would be applied to the first note as well, not just the second.

This is becouse i set up filter conditions specifying what articulation is legato, repetition, starting note etc, so when going from a starting note to a legato on 2 different programs\articulations , the first note of the legato always also behaves like a starting note.
Since this is a constant thing, it would be beneficial to have a on\off function telling the sound to act like a legato from the very first note, as opposed to the second.

very much like programming a ghost note, exeptc that it is always turned on or off, without having to actually program ghost notes.

See?
Do i not make any sense at all? lol.


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## Big Bob (Jul 14, 2008)

Ah So!

Instead of 'automatic' you simply want something like a 'user preference' option to always play the first note of a legato phrase as though it was an 'inside' note? Or does this option also have to be toggled in real time as you play?

Of course, legato-connected notes have *two* characteristics. One is the crossfade, the other is the pitch warp. For this 2nd function, it is necessary to know the pitch of the note preceding the legato-played note. In the case of the first note of a phrase, there is no preceding note. I guess, you would then want the legato transition to sound as though the preceding note was the same as the phrase's starting note?

When I get some time, I'll take a look at how difficult it might be to add such a preference option (run-time changeable or not).

God Bless,

Bob


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## Pzy-Clone (Jul 14, 2008)

yes, exactly!
No it does not need to be toggled in real time.

Also, i dont use the pitch warp, as i try to avoid any synthetic processing to the notes, or atleast i dont usualy need the function.

I was under the impression that the pitch warp was doing the same intervall regardless of the note it was coming from, but that is perhaps not correct?

To get that right, one offcourse would need a manual ghost note, but perhaps in the eventuality of a user preference swithc set to "ON" ,just have the initial pitch warp of the first legato note play the same as the actual note like you suggested. But for my purpose that doesnt matter, since i dont use the pitch warp much.


I dunno, i think this would be a very usable feature, specificly if used in cunjunction with a alternating, filtering or other scripts that control articulations in realtime.

so, please do, lol...thats is currently the missing link in my kontakt script settup, getting the legatos to behave properly from the first note.

everything else is peachy :D
almost, lol, iv got few other things im trying to do, that doesnt seem possible in kontakt...


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## Big Bob (Jul 14, 2008)

> Also, i dont use the pitch warp, as i try to avoid any synthetic processing to the notes, or atleast i dont usualy need the function.



Hmmm! Why do you want to use SIPS at all then? The SIPS legato effect is entirely 'synthetic'. Furthermore, one of the reasons that SIPS can produce a fairly convincing and musical sounding 'synthetic' legato is because of the subtle pitch warp. The reason I included a pitch warp along with the crossfade is because that is essentially what happens when a real instrument is played legato. 



> I was under the impression that the pitch warp was doing the same intervall regardless of the note it was coming from, but that is perhaps not correct?



If you are talking about SIPS, what happens is the old note starts bending toward the new note as it fades out and the new note which is fading in bends from the direction of the old note. The extent of this warp depends on how you set the parameters. Also, it usually produces a more realistic effect if the Octave factor (or Slope) is set greater than 1.0 and this means that the amount of pitch warp increases with the played interval. So there are two reasons why the warp depends on the played interval. The reason this all sounds fairly realistic is because this is also what happens in the real world. All this is pretty well described in the SIPS User's Guide but I can't give you a page number because I don't know what version of SIPS you might be using.

As to the preference option, when I get a chance to review the code, I'll see how difficult it might be to add something like this. I doubt if I will be able to include it in V205 which is just about ready for release but, I'll let you know if I do. Otherwise, it will have to wait for a future revision.

But, thanks for the suggestion.

God Bless,

Bob


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## Pzy-Clone (Jul 14, 2008)

well, i still find SIPS to be a supreme way of blending release times into the attacks of the following note, i just prefer not to use any artificial pitching, as a general rule.

BUT Like i said, there nothing else out there that can handle note transitions like SIPS, even without the pitched transition notes, so dont misunderstand me, i hold it in very high regard. :D

So, all the best of luck with your new version, and also im using SIPS 1.51 ( i guess its called?).

And should you find the time and will to implement anything i suggested, i would be very honoured and happy if you did, even if i im just a single user with a very specific need lol.


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## Big Bob (Jul 14, 2008)

> well, i still find SIPS to be a supreme way of blending release times into the attacks of the following note, i just prefer not to use any artificial pitching, as a general rule.



Hmm. I find this very interesting. Are you saying then that you always set the Bend Edit box to zero when you make up a preset or use one of the existing ones?

BTW for V151 the discussion of this subject is on pages 23 and 24.


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## Pzy-Clone (Jul 14, 2008)

yes indeed i do.
And i just the use crossfade countouring to blend the notes toghether, and it works pretty well for me.

I use it for alot of different purposes, not just typical "legato " line instruments, but for blending and removing reduntant release times in general, wich drasticly cleans up your sound and programming details.

It also exposes any flaws tho, when one cannot drown transitions in release times.


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## Big Bob (Jul 14, 2008)

That's very interesting, thanks for sharing that.

God Bless,

Bob


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## Pzy-Clone (Jul 14, 2008)

actualy, now that i think about it...what would be immensly useful in SIPS, is to have 2 options available as a user preference on\off setting. one being the first note acting like a legato, but additionally: the the LAST note to also act like legato, like a reversed ghost note.

This would allow SIPS to work across midi channels and other kontakt programs, wich would be very usefull indeed when working with mulitple articulations or instruments spread out across different kontakt programs and channels , or even different instuments and samplers.


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## Big Bob (Jul 15, 2008)

> This would allow SIPS to work across midi channels and other kontakt programs, wich would be very usefull indeed when working with mulitple articulations or instruments spread out across different kontakt programs and channels , or even different instuments and samplers.



I'm not so sure that such a feature would fit into the 'big picture' very well. Perhaps you should wait until you have fully studied SIPS 2 which is now integrated with a very capable articulation script (the SAS) as part of the suite. My original vision for SIPS was for it to include this and one other member script which will pull all these kinds of things together. Unfortunately, early K2 technical issues and then health problems kind of slowed down the progress. But, at last, it's finally beginning to take shape. Since its first introduction, SIPS has grown a little, the new User's Guide is now up to 75 pages!

With the addition of the SAS (which by the way includes alternation, both natural and TKT), the only missing piece is some form of velocity layer crossfade support. Even as it stands, SIPS 2 can easily provide VXF using standard K2/3 features but an additional script will just make the process easier to setup and change.

Since release of SIPS 2 is only a matter of a week or so now, I suggest you wait until you get a copy and study it thoroughly. Who knows, you might even want to rethink the way you have been doing things to take advantage of some ot the new SIPS features.

In any case, right now I need to concentrate on getting SIPS 2 released and to finish up a Jazz Clarinet library I'm working on. But, after SIPS 2 has been out a while, if you still think you need the same things you are asking for now, re-post them in the near future and I'll reconsider them.

God Bless,

Bob


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## Big Bob (Jul 16, 2008)

mixolydian @ Wed Jul 16 said:


> The more I think about Pzy-Clone's first note switch, the more I think I need it too. In other words this is something I've missed.



OK that's two of you. Anyone else interested in holding up the release of SIPS 2 to try to include this preference option?


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## Pzy-Clone (Jul 16, 2008)

HEY thats not quite right, i never asked about adding and delaying anything to SIPS, i just made an inquiery towards a fade in script for the first note in a phrase.

You mentioned SIPS specifcly, not i.

...offcourse you should not delay SIPS for 2 people, that would be extremely narcssisistic of me to assume such a thing.


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## Big Bob (Jul 16, 2008)

OK, calm down now :lol: 

I think you misunderstood the purpose of my last query. I had already told you that when I had a little time available, I would look into what was involved to add such a preference option to SIPS. I also said that it was probably unlikely that I could include it in the impending release but i would let you know.

Since another user also expressed some interest in having this option, I merely thought I would try to determine if there might be others i(n sufficient number)to justify holding off release a bit while I investigated this issue. If it turns out to be not too difficult, it might be worth sqeezing it in as an eleventh-hour enchancement. On the other hand, if interest in this is only slight, then I won't take the time now to study it.

I'm merely trying to get a feel for the importance of including such a feature in the near term.

Bob


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## Pzy-Clone (Jul 16, 2008)

LOL yeah im calm, err...my cynical nature convinced my that you were being sarcastic lol, sorry bout that.

Well, i dont know how other people work, but i always work across different programs even on different midi channels for the same instruments, depending on how many articuations i need.

The option to have a legato work regardless would be a very good thing, and is currently something that i cannot do in kontakt.

Hell now i would feel terrible if you started delaying the SIPS release just becouse of my ranting here lol, i just dont stop talking sometimes, u know


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## Big Bob (Jul 17, 2008)

Hey no problem my friend,

I'm always willing to listen to different ideas (and believe me, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic). But, after thinking about this a little last night, I have come to the following conclusion. While I do of course think that the idea of being able to play the first note of a legato phrase with a legato attack is very useful (afterall, that's why I included the 'ghost' articulation feature in SIPS 2). I also agree that a simpler way of accomplishing it would be very nice.

However, I think that a simple User Preference option that then plays all notes legato (even the first note of a legato phrase) may be a little too restrictive in the opposite direction. I realize that for the way you are using SIPS, such an option may be fine but, I think it would be more generally useful if there was an easy way to control this option in real time. I know that I personally would much prefer being able to start some phrases legato and others not.

I did a little thinking about the best way to implement such an option and came to the conclusion that I should think it through more carefully and that will require some time. So, rather than delay the release of SIPS 2, I'm going to set this aside for now. However, I will continue to think about the best way to implement this feature and eventually, the Good Lord Willing, I'll try to include it in a future update.

Meanwhile, the 'ghost' note feature of SIPS 2 at least provides 'a way' to accomplish it, even if it isn't the most convenient way one could imagine.

But again, thanks for your input and don't lose heart, at least you got me thinking about it :roll: 

God Bless,

Bob


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## Mr. Anxiety (Jul 20, 2008)

Having the extra featured requested above could possibly be of interest to me; but definitely not something to hold up your much aniticipated SIPS 2 release. As you said, if it's easy, you'll give it a try to add to it! Sounds good to me.

Any idea on the timeline for SIPS2? Just curious.

Mr. Anxiety


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## ComposerDude (Jul 21, 2008)

(Needless to say, he's "anxiously" awaiting SIPS 2.)


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## Big Bob (Jul 21, 2008)

Be anxious no more, instead, see this post http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9931 and enjoy.

God Bless,

Bob


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