# Junkie XL Brass?



## fish_hoof

Anyone hear anything?

Been holding out for more news, Modern Scoring Brass and Cinematic Studio Brass look awfully great but been holding out to hear the Junkie XL Brass.


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## sIR dORT

Their website doesn't have anything new, still says "Coming 2019" under Junkie XL Brass.


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## JEPA

coming before BF or after BF?


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## ProfoundSilence

JEPA said:


> coming before BF or after BF?


this is going to be a tough part of the equation

unfortunately, first impressions linger, and if they rush it out it could severely cripple their sampler adoption - if they wait until after BF nobody will have any money lol

@OrchestralTools @tobiasescher

I just want the sampler to reduce ram footprint for the brass/winds/perc

I'll probably stay kontakt for strings tbh


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## KEM

I’m still waiting for more news on this, I haven’t been this excited for a sample library in a long time.


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## Eptesicus

Still nothing?

Not much of 2019 left... 2 and a half months.


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## KEM

Eptesicus said:


> Still nothing?
> 
> Not much of 2019 left... 2 and a half months.



Yeah the excitement is getting to me lol


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## Consona

Well, they can still say there's gonna be some delay, the 2019 date means nothing I guess (don't want to underestimate them). Hope I'm wrong though.


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## Zee

For the past couple of years OT release their big libraries in September(Time Micro this year) and early December right after BF but usually they release info before BF end, my guess is there's no Ark this year and their big release is JXL Brass


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## MarcusD

I recon they'll drop JXl and the new sampler. That would be epic!


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## Zee

I don't think they'll release the new sampler this year


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## Land of Missing Parts

Zee said:


> I don't think they'll release the new sampler this year


Interesting predictions. Are you basing them on anything?


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## Zee

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Are you basing them on anything?


Just a hunch really no reason behind it other than i know how much it takes to build a software that big


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## barteredbride

I think they had to anounce something (was it February this year?) as they saw Cinematic Studio Brass and Spitfire Studio Brass released, so it would make sense to let people know they were at least working on something! 

I think the library is gonna suprise people in the lower dynamics!


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## gjelul

I have a feeling that this has to do with the new Capsule. They did set a vey high bar last January on what was coming and what they were working on - not easy to do all that in one year. However, I hope they have news soon as I am interested in the JXL Brass as well. It will be interesting to see how it will stand next to the Berlin Brass (OT doesn't see JXL Brass as a replacement of the BB.)

Waiting out for their BF specials on the rest of their libraries...


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## gjelul

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Interesting predictions. Are you basing them on anything?



Nothing wrong with that. I personally prefer to have them take their time and do it right rather than release it and we have to deal with bugs and frustrations.


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## Peter Satera

I wouldn't be surprised if it was put back by 4-6 months. OTs sampler is more likely to come first using Layers as a test bed. 
This way they can iron out bugs that have slipped through QA before JXL is distributed using it.


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## Consona

Agreed, I think JXLB will run on the new sample engine which means delays until it's tested and runs smoothly.


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## jamwerks

Consona said:


> Agreed, I think JXLB will run on the new sample engine which means delays until it's tested and runs smoothly.


Yeah it's been clearly stated by OT that this will run on their New Player. Since Layers still isn't out yet, imo we're looking at 6 months from now for JXLB at the earliest, but we'll see. 

In the meantime we'll probable have another Ark on Kontakt in the coming weeks.


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## zimm83

Oh yeah....another ark on kontakt.....I LOVE this idea !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## KEM

I'm ok with it being pushed back for quality control reasons, and I'm excited to see what they do with this new sampler


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## fish_hoof

Great comments all. I agree on it getting pushed back for quality. Though, I'd love to see some type of communication to go out so we're not left in the dark and not wondering (what if JXL and OT got in a fist fight over programming! The brass will never happen!!!)


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## jamwerks

Who says it's pushed back for quality?


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## Eptesicus

jamwerks said:


> Who says it's pushed back for quality?



Its just speculation as we are fast approaching the end of 2019 and have had no news.

An update from OT would be good.

We have had videos from Dec and Jan and a main page on their website with a full header link but nothing for nearly 10 months now.


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## Drundfunk

Eptesicus said:


> Its just speculation as we are fast approaching the end of 2019 and have had no news.
> 
> An update from OT would be good.
> 
> We have had videos from Dec and Jan and a main page on their website with a full header link but nothing for nearly 10 months now.


Yeah, but they told us that it will come end of THIS year. So if the plan had to be changed it would be good to communicate this as early as possible.


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## Eptesicus

Drundfunk said:


> Yeah, but they told us that it will come end of THIS year. So if the plan had to be changed it would be good to communicate this as early as possible.



I agree.


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## Consona

fish_hoof said:


> (what if JXL and OT got in a fist fight over programming! The brass will never happen!!!)


Totally possible!  In the NAMM video, Tom said something like, I paraphrase: "If John Williams was using VIs, this would be his brass library." Maybe those playable runs still sound kinda robotic yet wonky?


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## Jdiggity1

Consona said:


> Totally possible!  In the NAMM video, Tom said something like, I paraphrase: "If John Williams was using VIs, this would be his brass library." Maybe those playable runs still sound kinda robotic yet wonky?


Yeah but Tom also didn't know what a bottle mic was. I'm not sure we can trust him....


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## Consona

Jdiggity1 said:


> Yeah but Tom also didn't know what a bottle mic was. I'm not sure we can trust him....


He's working with OT not Spitfire, though.


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## Zee

Jdiggity1 said:


> Yeah but Tom also didn't know what a bottle mic was. I'm not sure we can trust him....


a bit off topic but i've been meaning to ask, did you come up with "Stroking the frog" before or after Botdog released Frog Guiros ?


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## David Kudell

Quite frankly, there's a lot of baseless speculation going on here that does a disservice to all of us.

The latest info about JunkieXL Brass is at 8 minutes in this video:


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## Jdiggity1

Zee said:


> a bit off topic but i've been meaning to ask, did you come up with "Stroking the frog" before or after Botdog released Frog Guiros ?


Simultaneously.
What you hear in that library is in fact me, stroking the frog(s). And it is also what I am doing in my avatar (a screenshot taken from the frog guiros release video), hence the caption.
I specifically chose _not _to record the frog guiros with a bottle mic, in case you were wondering.


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## Consona

David Kudell said:


> Quite frankly, there's a lot of baseless speculation going on here that does a disservice to all of us.
> 
> The latest info about JunkieXL Brass is at 8 minutes in this video:



Maaaaaaan...


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## jamwerks

That was nice to hear those few words about the new library!!


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## Eptesicus

David Kudell said:


> Quite frankly, there's a lot of baseless speculation going on here that does a disservice to all of us.
> 
> The latest info about JunkieXL Brass is at 8 minutes in this video:




Not really sure how that video tells us anything about when it will be released, which is what the "baseless speculation" has been about...


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## Land of Missing Parts

Whatever about Junkie XL Brass...I want to hear the baseless speculation about _Metropolis Ark 5_.


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## KEM

David Kudell said:


> Quite frankly, there's a lot of baseless speculation going on here that does a disservice to all of us.
> 
> The latest info about JunkieXL Brass is at 8 minutes in this video:




The hype, I can’t much more of it...


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## David Kudell

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Whatever about Junkie XL Brass...I want to hear the baseless speculation about Metropolis Ark 5.


Ark V is definitely delayed since we haven’t heard anything about it. Probably due to quality issues and, I don’t know, Hendrik’s vacation to the tropics. OT really needs to make some sort of announcement about why it’s delayed since 2019 is almost over. Then they should post daily updates on their upcoming sample player because we have music to compose and all of our currently owned sample libraries have stopped working and only JunkieXL brass and Metropolis Ark VII will do.


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## gjelul

David Kudell said:


> Quite frankly, there's a lot of baseless speculation going on here that does a disservice to all of us.
> 
> The latest info about JunkieXL Brass is at 8 minutes in this video:





What's interesting to me after seeing this video is that OT is 'pushing' the JXL library as something that it will be better than the Berlin Brass they already have ('consistency in dynamic layers,' etc.) Yet, there is no plans that JXL Brass will replace Berlin Brass in their catalog. 

Why would anyone buy the Berlin Brass when the JXL Brass is already announced as "coming in 2019?"


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## David Kudell

gjelul said:


> What's interesting to me after seeing this video is that OT is 'pushing' the JXL library as something that it will be better than the Berlin Brass they already have ('consistency in dynamic layers,' etc.) Yet, there is no plans that JXL Brass will replace Berlin Brass in their catalog.
> 
> Why would anyone buy the Berlin Brass when the JXL Brass is already announced as "coming in 2019?"


Agreed, I am kind of on the fence and not sure what I’ll do if the main Berlin collections go on sale for Black Friday. I’ve always wanted Berlin Brass/Strings/Woodwinds, but it does seem like JunkieXL Brass may be the bees knees. 
This is just a guess (baseless speculation 😂) but Berlin Brass might be positioned as a complete Orchestral collection while JunkieXL is aimed at film scoring. But then Tom himself said he wants it to be for everyone. So who knows?


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## gjelul

David Kudell said:


> Agreed, I am kind of on the fence and not sure what I’ll do if the main Berlin collections go on sale for Black Friday. I’ve always wanted Berlin Brass/Strings/Woodwinds, but it does seem like JunkieXL Brass may be the bees knees.
> This is just a guess (baseless speculation 😂) but Berlin Brass might be positioned as a complete Orchestral collection while JunkieXL is aimed at film scoring. But then Tom himself said he wants it to be for everyone. So who knows?



The way it stands and based on the infor that OT has thrown out there, I'd skip Berlin Brass regardless of BF specials, and just wait for the JXL Brass. I wish they can make it clear what is what.... but hey, that's the beauty of buying more unecessary libraries.


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## ProfoundSilence

gjelul said:


> The way it stands and based on the infor that OT has thrown out there, I'd skip Berlin Brass regardless of BF specials, and just wait for the JXL Brass. I wish they can make it clear what is what.... but hey, that's the beauty of buying more unecessary libraries.


I highly doubt jxl will individually sample a classic brass setup. looks more like large sections that you might get multiple sections

i.e instead of trumpet 1 2 3 and 3a, it'll be more like trombone 12a, 6a, 3a, solo.


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## Dominik

gjelul said:


> The way it stands and based on the infor that OT has thrown out there, I'd skip Berlin Brass regardless of BF specials, and just wait for the JXL Brass. I wish they can make it clear what is what.... but hey, that's the beauty of buying more unecessary libraries.


You may do well to skip Berlin Brass. I have it and can´t wait for JXL Brass because I am having such a hard time with Berlin Brass. It just sucks at f and ff.
I really hope that JXL samples all individual instruments.But I also fear that he does not.


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## Chungus

Dominik said:


> I really hope that JXL samples all individual instruments.But I also fear that he does not.


As ProfoundSilence mentioned above, in a leaked image, it showed notes for the trombones being in increasingly large sections. No individual players beyond a single solo instrument.


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## gjelul

Dominik said:


> You may do well to skip Berlin Brass. I have it and can´t wait for JXL Brass because I am having such a hard time with Berlin Brass. It just sucks at f and ff.
> I really hope that JXL samples all individual instruments.But I also fear that he does not.




I am still puzzled why there is so many 'not that happy' owners of the Berlin Brass. Have read numerous reviews on this specific library and find this one especially spot on:




__





Orchestral Tools Berlin Brass


Orchestral Tools complete their symphonic series with a major brass library.




www.soundonsound.com





It would be dissapointing if the JXL Brass doesn't have the Hn 1, 2, 3, 4 etc - for section creation - on top of the 48 Trbs in unisson that it will probably have 

2 more months to go...


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## Dominik

gjelul said:


> I am still puzzled why there is so many 'not that happy' owners of the Berlin Brass. Have read numerous reviews on this specific library and find this one especially spot on:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Orchestral Tools Berlin Brass
> 
> 
> Orchestral Tools complete their symphonic series with a major brass library.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.soundonsound.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would be dissapointing if the JXL Brass doesn't have the Hn 1, 2, 3, 4 etc - for section creation - on top of the 48 Trbs in unisson that it will probably have
> 
> 2 more months to go...


I researched the market yesterday and an important point why Berlin Brass is viewed as a very good library may be because of the versatility with all those solo recorded instruments. I was a little ignorant about this fact, but Berlin Brass stands on its own when it comes to section building flexibility (a shame i.m.h.o). And since I just finished a mock-up of a classical piece I can say that this is absolutely neccessary when it comes to reproduce classical music because the composers of the past seldom put in e.g. 12 horns playing one note all together. They spread chords over the sections and if you want to reproduce this convincingly you need individual instruments. 

If you play around with Berlin Brass the first time when making a review or such you will easily be overwhelmed because there are indeed great sounds in there.
But the other perspective is that the library is not very well balanced when you actially want to use it in context. For example, there are many crescendos performed shaky, the marcato samples have different lengths and intensities and especially the long notes are so unbalanced in intensity. Some notes play like p when they actually should play ff whereas others sound like f. 

I complained about the library generally lacking higher dynamics but all OT support said is that the library is not intended for trailer music which is total nonsense. I have the biggest problems with every classical piece when the brass can´t perform ff or even f (in some notes).

Well, in most of my works I don´t need individually recorded instruments because I let sections play only one note but this is also caused by the fact that conventional sample libraries don´t give the possibility of such composition techniques in the first place because sections are recorded unisono. So, in this respect Berlin Brass is unique (if they would not have messed it up in parts). 
So, if JXL Brass has no seperate instruments I still find it interesting but I also will still wait for a replacement for Berlin Brass and I would even support the idea to record even more single instruments.


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## Eptesicus

Soooo i guess this isnt coming this year. If it is, i do hope they say something about it before Black Friday as otherwise i may buy a different brass library. 

Would love to know at least some info (section sizes, articulations approx price etc)


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## constaneum

Dominik said:


> I researched the market yesterday and an important point why Berlin Brass is viewed as a very good library may be because of the versatility with all those solo recorded instruments. I was a little ignorant about this fact, but Berlin Brass stands on its own when it comes to section building flexibility (a shame i.m.h.o). And since I just finished a mock-up of a classical piece I can say that this is absolutely neccessary when it comes to reproduce classical music because the composers of the past seldom put in e.g. 12 horns playing one note all together. They spread chords over the sections and if you want to reproduce this convincingly you need individual instruments.
> 
> If you play around with Berlin Brass the first time when making a review or such you will easily be overwhelmed because there are indeed great sounds in there.
> But the other perspective is that the library is not very well balanced when you actially want to use it in context. For example, there are many crescendos performed shaky, the marcato samples have different lengths and intensities and especially the long notes are so unbalanced in intensity. Some notes play like p when they actually should play ff whereas others sound like f.
> 
> I complained about the library generally lacking higher dynamics but all OT support said is that the library is not intended for trailer music which is total nonsense. I have the biggest problems with every classical piece when the brass can´t perform ff or even f (in some notes).
> 
> Well, in most of my works I don´t need individually recorded instruments because I let sections play only one note but this is also caused by the fact that conventional sample libraries don´t give the possibility of such composition techniques in the first place because sections are recorded unisono. So, in this respect Berlin Brass is unique (if they would not have messed it up in parts).
> So, if JXL Brass has no seperate instruments I still find it interesting but I also will still wait for a replacement for Berlin Brass and I would even support the idea to record even more single instruments.



Berlin brass not meant for trailer music? So that explains the need for JXL brass for Berlin brass owners then ? Hahah


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## pawelmorytko

Eptesicus said:


> Soooo i guess this isnt coming this year. If it is, i do hope they say something about it before Black Friday as otherwise i may buy a different brass library.
> 
> Would love to know at least some info (section sizes, articulations approx price etc)


You never know, the website still says "coming 2019", surely they would change it to 2020 by now if they thought they couldn't deliver on time


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## Eptesicus

pawelmorytko said:


> You never know, the website still says "coming 2019", surely they would change it to 2020 by now if they thought they couldn't deliver on time



You would hope so! However the page implies there would be updates and there hasn't been any for most of the year.

Maybe they will just suddenly release it with no further updates.

I'm sceptical though.


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## ChrisSiuMusic

Eptesicus said:


> You would hope so! However the page implies there would be updates and there hasn't been any for most of the year.
> 
> Maybe they will just suddenly release it with no further updates.
> 
> I'm sceptical though.


They did that for Glory Days


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## CromoFX

Tomorrow ...


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## brenneisen

if it's yellow, it's brass


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## Zee

Ok so it's this year
I really hope the Kontakt version is released at the same time as the OT player


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## Uiroo

brenneisen said:


> if it's yellow, it's brass


Yes, the youtube notification title of the video I got is "JXLBrass PreTeaser wSound 2019 11 14 20 28" 
Not so much "???" :D


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## brenneisen

Uiroo said:


> Yes, the youtube notification title of the video I got is "JXLBrass PreTeaser wSound 2019 11 14 20 28"
> Not so much "???" :D



for real? how do you go live without a rename, magod


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## Eptesicus

CromoFX said:


> Tomorrow ...




Yay.

This will make black friday decisions easier!


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## Uiroo

brenneisen said:


> for real? how do you go live without a rename, magod








:D


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## zimm83

Zee said:


> Ok so it's this year
> I really hope the Kontakt version is released at the same time as the OT player


OT said NOT kontakt player.


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## zimm83

CromoFX said:


> Tomorrow ...



Nothing on OT site.. So.....hummmm....tomorrow ??? No....
They not even released their player....So JXL Brass before the player....NO.


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## Eptesicus

zimm83 said:


> Nothing on OT site.. So.....hummmm....tomorrow ??? No....
> They not even released their player....So JXL Brass before the player....NO.



What if the player releases with it ?

Presumably the player will be released/debut with one library or another so why not this?


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## zimm83

Eptesicus said:


> What if the player releases with it ?
> 
> Presumably the player will be released/debut with one library or another so why not this?


Because the player will be released with LAYERS - Studio Ensemble.. And will be FREE.


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## zimm83




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## zimm83

That's what i understood.....we will see....


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## KEM

Ok, I’m in.


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## NoamL

brenneisen said:


> if it's yellow, it's brass



Does anyone else do gold horns, yellow trumpets and red-orange low brass?


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## CromoFX

NoamL said:


> Does anyone else do gold horns, yellow trumpets and red-orange low brass?



Exactly what my DAW-Template looks like ... 😊


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## Damarus

🤯


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## Emmanuel Rousseau

NoamL said:


> Does anyone else do gold horns, yellow trumpets and red-orange low brass?


My brass tracks are green, but I'm colorblind. That's my excuse.


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## Bear Market

NoamL said:


> Does anyone else do gold horns, yellow trumpets and red-orange low brass?



Oh yeah.


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## barteredbride

CromoFX said:


> Tomorrow ...



I think its a subscription service.


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## gjelul

Their new player is probably not full proof yet, hence the delay on the sample libraries (Junkie XL Brass, etc.). 

On the website it still says Junkie XL Brass coming in 2019. I doubt OT is not aware of this... They will have to announce something new before year's end.


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## Chungus

NoamL said:


> Does anyone else do gold horns, yellow trumpets and red-orange low brass?


No, brother. Yellow-gold for all brass, all the way. 

Also brown-red for strings, orange for harps, blue for woodwinds, grey for percussion, black for piano, silver for choirs and other vocals, and purple for synths. Haven't decided on a colour for basses and guitars yet.


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## borisb2

I have all tracks black .. I dont like colors .. I also leave the names empty


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## Zee

I don't think they'll release it without the new player, because people would just buy it for Kontakt and there won't be any reason to go for the new -presumably unstable- player it was the same thing for HZ Strings except that one was exclusive


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## KEM

NoamL said:


> Does anyone else do gold horns, yellow trumpets and red-orange low brass?



All my Brass is red because of Spitfire.


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## Michael Antrum

I can imagine that there is a lot of work involed in moving the samples of their existing libraries over to the new player, which I understand is what was planned at the launch event.

But I would be very surprised if they did not take the opportunity to balance the sections of their libraries a little better.

I think that since the BBCSO came out, balanced levels between sections is going to be expected in premium and higher end libraries. But I'm am sure we will see in short order....


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## NoamL

Chungus said:


> No, brother. Yellow-gold for all brass, all the way.
> 
> Also brown-red for strings, orange for harps, blue for woodwinds, grey for percussion, black for piano, silver for choirs and other vocals, and purple for synths. Haven't decided on a colour for basses and guitars yet.



Yuech! Strings should be green!

Now that I think about it I don't even know why it is. But strings are green.


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## Eptesicus

Ha, I've always had strings as blue, brass as green and winds in pink...


Now I think about it strings should be red/brown. Brass should be yelllow/gold and woodwind should be silver...


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## CromoFX

Maybe we need more 'shades and pattern' - features for our tracks ... 🌈


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## Kony

I'd have thought woodwinds would be black?


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## Peter Satera

It doesn't need to be the JXLBrass release, it could be a wip vid, blog or release date.


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## Drundfunk

I'm excited. Finally I might become a good composer!


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## KEM

NoamL said:


> Yuech! Strings should be green!
> 
> Now that I think about it I don't even know why it is. But strings are green.



My strings are green, again because of Spitfire haha.


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## brenneisen

NoamL said:


> [...] and red-orange low brass?



nooo! all yellow, just darker








Chungus said:


> blue for woodwinds



yes, you're right! the sky is blue and full of moving air also know as winds

(you have permission to use cyan if your keys got blue first)


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## KEM

brenneisen said:


> nooo! all yellow, just darker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes, you're right! the sky is blue and full of moving air also know as winds
> 
> (you have permission to use cyan if your keys got blue first)



This is a good idea, I should really make more custom colors to do this in my template.


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## AlexRuger

My coloring is very simple. For the sections/group tracks/etc:

-Winds = blue
-Brass = red
-Percussion (non-melodic) = orange
-Percussion (melodic) = pink
-Strings = purple

(Non-orchestral: synths are green because they're cRaZy, and yellow is used sparingly because I hate it).

But the instruments within each group are always rainbow. Violin I = red, violin II = orange, viola = yellow, cello = green, bass = blue. Same thing for other groups, but with the other colors as needed/as it makes sense. So, flute is red because it's the "violin" of the woodwinds, but piccolo is pink because it's even higher than red.

There's also tons of inconsistencies in my template that I'm just used to and would probably drive you all nuts.

Funny to hear how everyone has such strong opinions on what color strings should be -- for me it's always purple, precisely because the ends of my viola strings growing up were purple.


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## borisb2

I accidentally hit save after the tweak .. just kidding 

my color scheme is red (and its variations) for strings, yellows for brass, greens for woodwinds and grey for percussion / and synths


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## KEM

Strings = Green
Brass = Red
Winds = Purple
Choirs = Pink
Melodic Perc = Blue
NonM Perc = Brown
Synths = Yellow


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## David Kudell

Well this thread derailed quickly!


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## MarcusD

New video on his Youtube is a teaser for something. Maybe it's for the brass?? 


Wont let me post a link off me phone.


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## Saxer

Strings = warm colours: Vl1 Vl2 Vla orange from light to dark, celli red, basses brown like the earth.
Brass = horns cyan, trumpets green, trombones and tuba dark blue
Winds = flutes light blue, oboes yellow, clarinets brown, bassoons purple
Melodic Perc = metal blue, wood brown, harp yellow
NonM Perc = drums dark, cymbals yellow
Synths = whatever they do

All is cangeable but strings can never be green here!
Each instrument has it's own color: flute 1 has a different light blue than flute 2. Top instrument is always lighter, lower darker.

I wish Logic would allow custom colors!


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## Eptesicus

MarcusD said:


> New video on his Youtube is a teaser for something. Maybe it's for the brass??
> 
> 
> Wont let me post a link off me phone.



Its already been posted and it is definitely about the brass. The tag/link to it yesterday actually said "junkie Xl brass" on it!


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## jamwerks

May be that JXL Brass is ready, but their player just isn't yet, so they might have decided to rethink their strategy and put this out on K6 ? 

SF put out HZ strings and other smaller libraries about a year before BBC, and their player still isn't 100% mature (time stretching) though quite advanced.

With OT still not having put out Layers, I find it hard to believe that their player has become so advance as to be able to handle something like JXL Brass, but we shall see.


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## Eptesicus

jamwerks said:


> May be that JXL Brass is ready, but their player just isn't yet, so they might have decided to rethink their strategy and put this out on K6 ?
> 
> SF put out HZ strings and other smaller libraries about a year before BBC, and their player still isn't 100% mature (time stretching) though quite advanced.
> 
> With OT still not having put out Layers, I find it hard to believe that their player has become so advance as to be able to handle something like JXL Brass, but we shall see.



True. However, their site still says it is coming 2019. Also we now know something is coming today, whether it be the actual release or a preview possibly with a release date announced. Also, Junkie XL Brass is now on their front landing page (as in there is a graphic on the page, not just along the top) saying "coming 2019". I dont think it has been on their front page for that long.

It would therefore be surprising if it was suddenly pushed back into 2020. They only realistically have a month left of this year before Christmas holidays.


----------



## Eptesicus

So....the business day is basically over in Germany.


----------



## Damarus




----------



## Eptesicus

I think Tom trolled us all.


----------



## NoamL

I just LOVE all of Tom's fans on YouTube and Twitter who think this mysterious announcement is that he's releasing the Snyder Cut of the Justice League + the original soundtrack.


----------



## Damarus

NoamL said:


> I just LOVE all of Tom's fans on YouTube and Twitter who think this mysterious announcement is that he's releasing the Snyder Cut of the Justice League + the original soundtrack.



LOL RIGHT - I actually had to hold myself back from commenting. WHY do they want that so bad??


----------



## Eptesicus

NoamL said:


> I just LOVE all of Tom's fans on YouTube and Twitter who think this mysterious announcement is that he's releasing the Snyder Cut of the Justice League + the original soundtrack.



Yes those comments were making me laugh also.

It is amusing that they think it is the theme for one of the characters :D


----------



## NoamL

Damarus said:


> LOL RIGHT - I actually had to hold myself back from commenting. WHY do they want that so bad??



I would be very interested to hear the original JL score as well. It's just funny that they don't get it's a VI announcement...

or maybe WE'RE the ones who'll be mistaken...


----------



## Damarus

NoamL said:


> or maybe WE'RE the ones who'll be mistaken...


----------



## Eptesicus

It is getting a bit late now (European time)....


----------



## KEM

NoamL said:


> I just LOVE all of Tom's fans on YouTube and Twitter who think this mysterious announcement is that he's releasing the Snyder Cut of the Justice League + the original soundtrack.



Not gonna lie I actually facepalmed in real life reading those comments, especially since they were getting a ton of likes, come on people, really...?


----------



## esmooov

I'm starting to think that because it was posted late yesterday, "tomorrow" is actually tomorrow and not today.


----------



## Eptesicus

esmooov said:


> I'm starting to think that because it was posted late yesterday, "tomorrow" is actually tomorrow and not today.



Uh oh. Maybe you are right. 

Maybe he was in China/Japan at the time !


----------



## Damarus

esmooov said:


> I'm starting to think that because it was posted late yesterday, "tomorrow" is actually tomorrow and not today.



Was just thinking this. Could it be late US time? what time did he post US time? I was trying to investigate but got distracted by all the #releasethesyndercut


----------



## NoamL

He posted yesterday 11am-ish US time, 9pm-ish Berlin time I think?


----------



## Eptesicus

NoamL said:


> He posted yesterday 11am-ish US time, 9pm-ish Berlin time I think?



It was posted on here at ~6.30pm berlin time. Not sure exactly when Junkie posted it on his youtube but must have been earlier than that.


----------



## KEM

Eptesicus said:


> It was posted on here at ~6.30pm berlin time. Not sure exactly when Junkie posted it on his youtube but must have been earlier than that.



He's correct, the video was posted at 11am and I'm in St. Louis


----------



## Eptesicus

KEM said:


> He's correct, the video was posted at 11am and I'm in St. Louis



So it must have been posted at 6pm in Berlin then.


----------



## Chungus

Uh. Is the OT website only showing their logo for anyone else?


----------



## Eptesicus

Chungus said:


> Uh. Is the OT website only showing their logo for anyone else?



Displays fine for me.

I think its game over for today. its nearly 10pm in Berlin.... : /


----------



## Damarus

:(


----------



## matthieuL

Chungus said:


> Uh. Is the OT website only showing their logo for anyone else?


Me too. Something will happen soon...


----------



## Chungus

matthieuL said:


> Me too. Something will happen soon...


Ah, good. I was starting to think I had picked up malware or something. xD


----------



## Eptesicus

Website works fine for me!

Edit - Scratch that! Must just be Firefox using the cached version of the site. When i go to it from a different browser i too get just the logo..

How exciting.


----------



## Nicola74

Eptesicus said:


> Website works fine for me!
> 
> Edit - Scratch that! Must just be Firefox using the cached version of the site. When i go to it from a different browser i too get just the logo..
> 
> How exciting.


For me too in Chrome, but I opened it in Firefox (first time) and I see only the logo...


----------



## Damarus

Whatttttttttt - I still see the site on multiple browsers


----------



## osum

Damarus said:


> Whatttttttttt - I still see the site on multiple browsers



Do a force refresh (Ctrl+F5) to ignore browser cache.


----------



## NoamL

Logo only for me on desktop and mobile....


----------



## Eptesicus

They will be burning the midnight oil if it does come out tonight!

Although maybe they are timing it for an American/LA audience.


----------



## Damarus

Eptesicus said:


> They will be burning the midnight oil if it does come out!
> 
> Although maybe they are timing it for an American/LA audience.



That was my initial thoughts as well


----------



## NoamL

Thinking only a release date announcement today. Shot across the bow of Black Friday sales.


----------



## Eptesicus

NoamL said:


> Thinking only a release date announcement today. Shot across the bow of Black Friday sales.




Quite possibly. I dont think it will be long till release though. They only have a month left realisticallty before xmas holidays, if they want to keep to the scheduled 2019 release.


----------



## erica-grace

My bet is that this is going to be a new brand of German Chocolate.


----------



## NoamL

I'm *reasonably hyped* for this. Dunno why.

I've been using *CSB* as my main brass ever since it came out and it's splendid. Backed it up with some of the brass from Albion 1+3 just to add a bit of versatility and that worked great for synthestrating on a very "Indiana Jones"-y soundtrack recently. It's easy to write & synthestrate fast and produce consistent results. The dynamic range is perfect and the library can switch smoothly between emotional legato and fast agile lines.

*Modern Scoring Brass* and *Century Brass* were easy "passes" for me. MSB was perhaps the most tempting but I just didn't gravitate towards the sound too much, there have been hardly any user-created demos, and while the workflow is a cut above the usual, I felt it might still be too hard to really wrangle all of those soloists together.

Recently I went thru all the brass libraries I own (too many- CSB, Caspian, Hollywood Brass Gold, Adventure & Trailer Brass, Berlin Brass, Auddict 8Horn and Cinesamples 12Horn, and a few odds and ends) and *Berlin Brass* was by far the highest quality complement to CSB. The issue is Berlin is programmed SO inconsistently. All four horns play different dynamics at the same modwheel position for instance. I've sunk a bit of time already into "conforming" the programming of Berlin to match CSB. I also like the inherent musicality & passion of the samples in CSB a bit more - not all eleven musicians in Berlin seem to be star players. But the sound of Teldex is probably, even as a matter of taste, preferable to Trackdown and Berlin's mic options are definitely superior - 6 mics available each of which have a fairly distinct perspective. The ORTF mic perspective is very tasty.

So the idea of OT going back into Teldex to do more brass sampling, which will hopefully be reasonably compatible with Berlin Brass, is pretty tantalizing. The potential for complementing or augmenting CSB is interesting as well. We know from the video there's going to be a 12 trombones patch, a 4 horns patch, 3 trumpets, and what looks like either 10 or 12 horns (probably 12!). Tom also mentioned soloists and small ensembles. Maybe something like 1, (2?), 4, 12 horns.

It will be interesting to see the lineup, features, price, and if this is coming out on their new player only or if it will be available thru Kontakt as well. I wish them the best with their player but if it's OT-player only, I definitely shall not pre-order, and will wait to see what people think of the player & its stability.


----------



## Damarus

NoamL said:


> I'm *reasonably hyped* for this. Dunno why.



I'm hyped for this as well - CSB is on my list for BF. I wonder if this would replace the need for that or augment as you mentioned.


----------



## Chungus

NoamL said:


> I'm *reasonably hyped* for this. Dunno why.
> 
> I've been using *CSB* as my main brass ever since it came out and it's splendid. Backed it up with some of the brass from Albion 1+3 just to add a bit of versatility and that worked great for synthestrating on a very "Indiana Jones"-y soundtrack recently. It's easy to write & synthestrate fast and produce consistent results. The dynamic range is perfect.
> 
> *Modern Scoring Brass* and *Century Brass* were easy "passes" for me. MSB was perhaps the most tempting but I just didn't gravitate towards the sound too much, there have been hardly any user-created demos, and while the workflow is a cut above the normal organization I felt it might still be too hard to really wrangle all of those soloists together.
> 
> Recently I went thru all the brass libraries I own (too many- CSB, Hollywood Brass Gold, Adventure & Trailer Brass, Berlin Brass, Auddict 8Horn and Cinesamples 12Horn, and a few odds and ends) and *Berlin Brass* was by far the highest quality complement to CSB. The issue is Berlin is programmed SO inconsistently. All four horns play different dynamics at the same modwheel position for instance. I've sunk a bit of time already into "conforming" the programming of Berlin to match CSB. I also like the inherent musicality & passion of the samples in CSB a bit more - not all eleven musicians in Berlin seem to be star players. But the sound of Teldex is probably, even as a matter of taste, preferable to Trackdown and Berlin's mic options are definitely superior - 6 mics available each of which have a fairly distinct perspective.
> 
> So the idea of OT going back into Teldex to do more brass sampling, which will hopefully be reasonably compatible with Berlin Brass, is pretty tantalizing. The potential for complementing or augmenting CSB is interesting as well. We know from the video there's going to be a 12 trombones patch, a 4 horns patch, 3 trumpets, and what looks like either 10 or 12 horns (probably 12!). Tom also mentioned soloists and small ensembles. Maybe something like 1, (2?), 4, 12 horns.


You'd do well to dock your excitement levels. Revolutionary advice, I know. But really, I _very _strongly doubt this library will be as deeply sampled as Berlin Brass. The scope it's trying to cover strikes me as too large for that to be practical.

Unless this comes with a pricetag that will make BB blush, corners will have to be cut. And my guess is that it'll have limited articulations.

Personally, I'm just looking forward for news on the store and player. lol


----------



## iMovieShout

Orchestral Tools website is only currently displaying its logo on the home page, which suggests an update is imminent. OR the website is offline!!


----------



## Damarus

Chungus said:


> You'd do well to dock your excitement levels. Revolutionary advice, I know. But really, I _very _strongly doubt this library will be as deeply sampled as Berlin Brass. The scope it's trying to cover strikes me as too large for that to be practical.
> 
> Unless this comes with a pricetag that will make BB blush, corners will have to be cut. And my guess is that it'll have limited articulations.
> 
> Personally, I'm just looking forward for news on the store and player. lol



I wonder what their goal is with this library? What's going to be different about this that I can't get in Berlin Brass or why choose one over the other?


----------



## Eptesicus

Still loving the comments on that youtube video:

_"I think this is the scene where cyborg sees the future with the mother boxes and with those scenes, this music plays. Either that or this is played during the scene where the league fails and there is an explosion while flash is going back to give everyone another chance so no one dies and hes running with all of the blue lightning "_


----------



## NoamL

Damarus said:


> I'm hyped for this as well - CSB is on my list for BF. I wonder if this would replace the need for that or augment as you mentioned.



Once you get CSB I think you'll find other brass libraries are more of a "want" than a "need" but it's always nice to have more tools as long as they bring something to the table!



Chungus said:


> You'd do well to dock your excitement levels. Revolutionary advice, I know. But really, I _very _strongly doubt this library will be as deeply sampled as Berlin Brass. The scope it's trying to cover strikes me as too large for that to be practical.



yes, but larger ensembles requirer fewer articulations (and probably in practice smaller dynamic range too...) If you're gonna pull out a 12hn or even a 4hn unison, well, it's probably playing a loud, boisterous unison line in the middle or upper register...



Damarus said:


> I wonder what their goal is with this library? What's going to be different about this that I can't get in Berlin Brass or why choose one over the other?



Just from the small hints they've dropped, this looks like it's going to have some massive modern-Hollywood-sized brass ensembles (12 trombones = Zimmer's ensemble on Inception together with 6 horns and 4 tubas). Also from the video it looks like they are recorded centrally rather than traditional brass positioning? Could be wrong about that. Berlin Brass is far more traditional. It's 3 trumpets, 4 horns, 3 trombones and tuba, recorded in their normal positions.


----------



## MarcusD

Would guess this library will be like Frozo meeting CSB and having a love child on a v8 tin can in the desert.


----------



## Ollie

Tom Holkenborg's Brass


Tom Holkenborg's Brass offers a full orchestral brass set-up in a single package, recorded with a highly consistent set of articulations for all instruments and sections. Classic brass instruments - including trumpets, french horns, trombones, cimbassi and a tuba - were sampled in several...




www.orchestraltools.com


----------



## Oliver

its here  








Tom Holkenborg's Brass


Tom Holkenborg's Brass offers a full orchestral brass set-up in a single package, recorded with a highly consistent set of articulations for all instruments and sections. Classic brass instruments - including trumpets, french horns, trombones, cimbassi and a tuba - were sampled in several...




www.orchestraltools.com


----------



## MarcusD

New storefront! Can we buy individual patches!? The patches are listed and at the top it says "licenses" not 'license'. Looks like the player must be ready too?


----------



## Eptesicus

Woop! 16th Dec release.


----------



## Damarus

16mic positions? Did I read that right? wtf


----------



## Eptesicus

Oh my this is good. Loads of different sized sections with 16 mic positions each!

300gb compressed!!


----------



## Damarus




----------



## Sovereign

Wow, looks nice.


----------



## Chungus

Damarus said:


> I wonder what their goal is with this library? What's going to be different about this that I can't get in Berlin Brass or why choose one over the other?


This will be the answer to the question "what if Ark1, but on steroids? 🤔 "

Jokes aside, beats me. I recall a quote that mentioned Tom saying he wanted this library to have something for everyone. Although I might be misremembering something there. But if that's the goal, I don't think the library will deliver.



NoamL said:


> yes, but larger ensembles requirer fewer articulations (and probably in practice smaller dynamic range too...) If you're gonna pull out a 12hn or even a 4hn unison, well, it's probably playing a loud, boisterous unison line in the middle or upper register...



That would be true, and if that kind of balls-to-the-wall power is what you're looking for, more power to you.


----------



## NoamL




----------



## Eptesicus

_Through a special offer by Tom himself, pre-order customers will receive an exclusive online JXL Brass Masterclass where Tom himself „LIVE and in real time“ will give a hands-on tutorial on how to get the absolute most from this brass collection, as well as some special trips and tricks. He will also be available for insights into the film scoring world and any other questions you may have._


^ Nice touch


----------



## Consona

No a la carte buying yet or ever?


----------



## Damarus

Download a-la-carte for now?


----------



## David Kudell

Wow, I love the new website! Junkie XL looks great, 5 dynamic layers, Alan Meyerson mixes, great intro price too. Can't wait!!


----------



## KEM

I think I'm gonna cry...


----------



## NoamL

Features: 


16 mics


Trumpets: 1, a3, a6
Horns: 1, a4, a6, a12
Trombones: 1, a3, a6, a12
Low Brass Ensembles: a3 Bass Trombones, a3 Tubas, a3 Cimbassos


16 mics


Longs: Sustain, Sus Soft, Sus Sforzando
Legato: True Legato for all sections plus "Playable Runs" for some
Shorts: Marcato Long, Marcato Short, Staccato, Staccatissimo, Rips


SIXTEEN MICS


----------



## Eptesicus

I really hope they give us extensive demos and playthroughs before release. I wont be pre-ordering otherwise.


----------



## Damarus

KEM said:


> I think I'm gonna cry...


My wallet is already crying


----------



## Eptesicus

Oddly enough, im not too keen on the little demo we get on the splash page...if that is the library .


----------



## Damarus

I wonder how the low dynamics are going to be


----------



## NoamL

Eptesicus said:


> Oddly enough, im not too keen on the little demo we get on the splash page...if that is the library .



Me either. I wonder if that's the AM mixes. It sounds very processed to boost the frequency extremes. Like a demo I posted a few days ago where if you take Albion 3:



And then you put the OTT plugin on it which is a multiband compressor to artificially boost the extremes:



It does sound more "modern" though!  🤷‍♂️

Compare:


----------



## Zero&One

Eptesicus said:


> Oddly enough, im not too keen on the little demo we get on the splash page...if that is the library .



But there's 16 mics... maybe this is just 14 of them


----------



## MrCambiata

Eptesicus said:


> Oddly enough, im not too keen on the little demo we get on the splash page...if that is the library .


Same here...


----------



## star.keys

That tone is absolutely amazing. I think that sound will gel wonderfully well with the entire Berlin series!

Question: Till when will the pre-order price last and when can we expect some demos and walkthrough videos coming in?


----------



## KEM

Damarus said:


> My wallet is already crying



Just preordered it


----------



## Mucusman

I love the detail available on the product page - which articulations are available for each instrument / instrument group. As an owner of MSB, I probably won't bite, but there are some things here (at least on paper) that I'm looking at longingly, like recorded sections.


----------



## Dr.Quest

MrCambiata said:


> Same here...


And here we go again... 🙄


----------



## Damarus

KEM said:


> Just preordered it


----------



## Eptesicus

Dr.Quest said:


> And here we go again... 🙄



Well, it doesnt sound that great i dont think.

You would think that if the library truly can sound incredible, they would have used something other than that.

Obviously i will reserve proper judgement until there are more demos.


----------



## Damarus

I just need someone to guide my wallet to a workhorse Brass library


----------



## Zero&One

Not by that demo no. Didn't like it at all.
Be nice to hear it in context with the rest of their line first.


----------



## Chungus

Okay, 5 dynamic layers for everything. I'll admit, I wasn't expecting that. But the articulation list is about what I thought it would have.


----------



## Wunderhorn

Another cool option for brass. Sounds great. But yet another proprietary player software to which we have to keep up with updates, and individual quirks not to speak of bugs? Thanks - I'll press the *SKIP* button here for the time being.


----------



## NoamL

Surprised at those who preordered. It's 33% off but according to the FAQ there will be no Kontakt version. So OT is paying you $275 to... potentially but hopefully not... beta-test their player.






I'm still very interested in this and the ability to buy just the biggest ensembles ala carte looks sweet. Depends on price and the eventual, user-tested stability of their player but I'm still potentially in after the release.



Damarus said:


> I just need someone to guide my wallet to a workhorse Brass library



As the resident CSB shill on this forum I already threw in my two cents. But I'd say wait to compare detailed demos of this library to those of CSB and see what you prefer. Keep in mind what kind of lines you usually write for brass. Are you more of a traditional orchestrator or modern sound-designy composer etc.


----------



## Damarus

NoamL said:


> As the resident CSB shill on this forum I already threw in my two cents. But I'd say wait to compare detailed demos of this library to those of CSB and see what you prefer. Keep in mind what kind of lines you usually write for brass. Are you more of a traditional orchestrator or modern sound-designy composer etc.



Yeah I love the CSB sound, and it was definitely my next purchase. I guess i'm mostly the modern sound at this moment, but I enjoy stuff that not always 'ff' 'FFF' sounding. Versatility is what I'm after I think.


----------



## Eptesicus

I suppose like with all libraries, it can look amazing on paper, with loads of section size, loads of articulations, billions of mic positions etc...

However only one thing matters. 

The sound.


----------



## VinRice

Looks good to me. Consistently articulated multiple ensemble sizes is a unique feature. If they have successfully pulled off a smooth pp to fff transition then it should be a winner. I love CSB but sometimes you just need the sound of 12 Horns, 6 Trumpets and 12 Trombones (?!) going BLAAAEEEEHHHHUMPH...


----------



## VinRice

Like all OT libraries, reasonable intro price and then too expensive for the rest of eternity.


----------



## Wunderhorn

Eptesicus said:


> However only one thing matters.
> 
> The sound.



Really? If usability is a PITA or that moment when you start getting hanging notes left and right you'll be quickly out scouting for alternatives!


----------



## gjelul

Not impressed at all with the sound from the very short demo...
However, I do like the articulation consistency and the 5 dynamic layers... in theory.

Looking forward to the proper demos and in context with the rest of the Berlin Series.

As of right now, the Berlin Brass collection sounds better for my purpose, especially with the ability for creating your own sections and more instruments.

Hopefully, the upcoming demos will make me pull the trigger on this one instead.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

yikes


----------



## jaketanner

gjelul said:


> Not impressed at all with the sound from the very short demo...


Agreed...the sound is not a good showcase of the library. We already have Angry Brass for all that stuff...Poor choice of a teaser I think.


----------



## Drumdude2112

Sorry that demo sounds Horrific .
Sounds EXTREMELY artificial ...BLECH !!
(Sounds like an OTT comp)


----------



## jononotbono

I want it. But to be honest... I want it all.


----------



## Olfirf

VinRice said:


> Like all OT libraries, reasonable intro price and then too expensive for the rest of eternity.


Well, since they did the NI sales with 50% off and had sales on all libraries with at least 33% off, that is a thing of the past, isn’t it? 
Also, I really have not the slightest interest in 16 microphone positions - on the contrary! That is waste of precious SSD space. I would prefer more articulations and more soloists like with Berlin brass. The only thing interestingabout this one is that it has more dynamic layers, which is a problem with some one the Berlin brass articulations. But there are so many alternatives out there to cover these cases. CSB, Century Brass, ... I think I can pass on this one. Well, not a big surprise, as I don’t really expect that a JXL library would be right for me.


----------



## AEF

Sounds like a supersaw wave....

only kind of joking.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

More buzz than brawn--which is not what I expected. It's interesting. Not in the budget for me though.


----------



## Raphioli

I wrote this in the other thread in the commercial section,
but I'm assuming the demo was created using a12 and a6 patches with maybe the highest dynamics available, which is only a fraction of the library. (it kind of sounds like when you play a chord with a huge ensemble patch.)

So I'm planning to save my judgement until I hear walkthroughs of the solo and smaller section sizes.
And most importantly to hear all the dynamic layers and the "industry leading smooth transitions" which they are claiming.


----------



## Solarsentinel

Then Finally, The junkie XL Brass are announced for 16 Dec!








Tom Holkenborg's Brass


Tom Holkenborg's Brass offers a full orchestral brass set-up in a single package, recorded with a highly consistent set of articulations for all instruments and sections. Classic brass instruments - including trumpets, french horns, trombones, cimbassi and a tuba - were sampled in several...




www.orchestraltools.com


----------



## Ihnoc

I actually quite liked the short demo; certainly it is the raspy quality being demonstrated there and I feel it sounds clear. If the lower dynamics are as good, I'd say this is a great offering.

Having said that, I'm not sure about Mr. XL but if it were me I would have focussed on more articulations than on the microphone count. 749EUR + VAT as the usual price is also pretty high when compared to other offerings...


----------



## Xilef

For me it doesn't sound that special or even that good. I mean it was announced as a very special brass library.. I don't know if it's only _me _but _I _can't hear that?

Anyways.. I'm excited for the walkthroughs  also how the new sample player will work. Spitfire did a similar concept a few years ago and it was meh.. see how OT will do this 8)


----------



## LudovicVDP

16 Mic? I was hoping for min 124 to be honest... 🙄
And 499... +VAT (21%) = 604 EUR. Aoutch.



This will stay on my GAS list for a long time, sadly...
I'll torture myself with all the demos I'll find on YT etc, trying to convice myself i don't actually wantneed it.


----------



## Raphioli

More articulations would probably made the library more expensive.
Even if they went easy on the number of mics. More articulations means more sessions.

They might do an expansion though, like their Berlin series if the library is a success.
I don't know how many RR's the shorts have, but I personally would've loved to see repetitions.

I'm hoping the dynamic transitions are so smooth that we wouldn't need any crescendo/swell samples.


----------



## VinRice

Olfirf said:


> Also, I really have not the slightest interest in 16 microphone positions - on the contrary! That is waste of precious SSD space



You haven't be paying attention. This will be the first library on their SINE player which allows you to keep instruments 'in the cloud' and download only when you need them. Additionally you can mix your own mic balance and re-save that as a new set of files so that only one signal is needed on disc and you can delete the rest.


----------



## Mike Fox

Just listened to the clip. Not quite sure what to think. It sounds like they recorded some natural sounding brass, then killed it with some crazy compressor and other post processing effects, making it sound somewhat synthy/buzzy. I bet it would cut through the mix like a mofo. Maybe that's the point?

Regardless, that clip sounds nothing like the OT brass we're used to. They usually nail it in that department.

Dammit OT! Give us a fu$!ing choir library!!!


----------



## boxheadboy50

Damarus said:


> I just need someone to guide my wallet to a workhorse Brass library





NoamL said:


> As the resident CSB shill on this forum [...]


Noam, I will absolutely join you on this - and I don't even own the library!
Hands down the top choice brass library IMO.


----------



## barteredbride

No triplets?


----------



## NoamL

After listening to it again this morning I believe this demo was created with the larger ensembles at max dynamics and using the AM (Alan Meyerson) mic mixes. The sound definitely isn't natural. It feels scooped (big EQ boost on bass and treble) and maybe even compressed a bit. It would have been nicer to hear a demo with full dynamic range using the natural mic mixes. Let's reserve our judgement though because the marketing says this goes down to pianissimo and I remember JXL saying his goal was making a brass library even JW would use, hah  so let's see if that pans out...


----------



## Eptesicus

NoamL said:


> After listening to it again this morning I believe this demo was created with the larger ensembles at max dynamics and using the AM (Alan Meyerson) mic mixes. The sound definitely isn't natural. It feels scooped (big EQ boost on bass and treble) and maybe even compressed a bit. It would have been nicer to hear a demo with full dynamic range using the natural mic mixes. Let's reserve our judgement though because the marketing says this goes down to pianissimo and I remember JXL saying his goal was making a brass library even JW would use, hah  so let's see if that pans out...



I agree with this.

I think the other thing annoying me about is the attacks on the horn shorts. They don't sound very natural.


----------



## pawelmorytko

NoamL said:


> Surprised at those who preordered. It's 33% off but according to the FAQ there will be no Kontakt version. So OT is paying you $275 to... potentially but hopefully not... beta-test their player.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still very interested in this and the ability to buy just the biggest ensembles ala carte looks sweet. Depends on price and the eventual, user-tested stability of their player but I'm still potentially in after the release.
> 
> 
> 
> As the resident CSB shill on this forum I already threw in my two cents. But I'd say wait to compare detailed demos of this library to those of CSB and see what you prefer. Keep in mind what kind of lines you usually write for brass. Are you more of a traditional orchestrator or modern sound-designy composer etc.




How do you get CSB to sit further in the mix? I have tried various techniques with reverbs, eq, mic positions and panning, but CSB is still so up front and in your face. Main reason im considering berlin brass to compliment it and fill the gaps, because it sounds like it sits nicely at the back, and has lovely lower mellow dynamics, and prerecorded swells and crescendos.


----------



## erica-grace

Yikes - the audio in that video sounds bad.

Anyone know when we can expect a walkthrough?


----------



## Fry777

The full video is available on the product page


----------



## Damarus

Episode 1 of making JXLbrass on the site now?









Tom Holkenborg's Brass


Tom Holkenborg's Brass offers a full orchestral brass set-up in a single package, recorded with a highly consistent set of articulations for all instruments and sections. Classic brass instruments - including trumpets, french horns, trombones, cimbassi and a tuba - were sampled in several...




www.orchestraltools.com


----------



## gjelul

NoamL said:


> After listening to it again this morning I believe this demo was created with the larger ensembles at max dynamics and using the AM (Alan Meyerson) mic mixes. The sound definitely isn't natural. It feels scooped (big EQ boost on bass and treble) and maybe even compressed a bit. It would have been nicer to hear a demo with full dynamic range using the natural mic mixes. Let's reserve our judgement though because the marketing says this goes down to pianissimo and I remember JXL saying his goal was making a brass library even JW would use, hah  so let's see if that pans out...



Yeah, it's like if John Williams puts out a synth / modular sample library that even Junkie XL would use


----------



## jneebz

Damarus said:


> Episode 1 of making JXLbrass on the site now?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom Holkenborg's Brass
> 
> 
> Tom Holkenborg's Brass offers a full orchestral brass set-up in a single package, recorded with a highly consistent set of articulations for all instruments and sections. Classic brass instruments - including trumpets, french horns, trombones, cimbassi and a tuba - were sampled in several...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.orchestraltools.com


OMG. Who is mixing these videos? The 6k is so freaking annoying....


----------



## N.Caffrey

Not very keen on the sound I’m afraid


----------



## Eptesicus

N.Caffrey said:


> Not very keen on the sound I’m afraid



Strange isn't it.

I was expecting to be seriously impressed.

Its worrying that they have used that as the opening example.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

So far it reminds me of Caspian with legato.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

To OT's credit: I'm pleased that the example is just brass, and not dressed with other instruments.


----------



## MartinH.

It seems to me like the opinions on the library based on the super short trailer are going to be very split, but the threads still look very civil compared to others. Is that because the library wasn't hyped up to no end? Or because it's released by OT and they just have less drama around their releases around here?


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

LOL! At the regular price, that's $1100 CDN, yikes!


----------



## VinRice

MartinH. said:


> It seems to me like the opinions on the library based on the super short trailer are going to be very split, but the threads still look very civil compared to others. Is that because the library wasn't hyped up to no end? Or because it's released by OT and they just have less drama around their releases around here?



Smaller company, less marketing, fewer enemies.


----------



## Maxfabian

No come on OT!! I really had high hopes for this one.. the first impression from the teaser makes me really disappointed. I really hope Im wrong. Fingers crossed!!!


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Maxfabian said:


> No come on OT!! I really had high hopes for this one.. the first impression from the teaser makes me really disappointed. I really hope Im wrong. Fingers crossed!!!



What were you hoping for? It's another brass library.


----------



## Drundfunk

Wolfie2112 said:


> What were you hoping for? It's another brass library.


Heresy!


----------



## Consona

Haven't heard the demo yet, but the library is said to have 5 dyn layers and even playable runs. I don't think the talked demo shows much of the library...


----------



## Bluemount Score

Consona said:


> Haven't heard the demo yet, but the library is said to have 5 dyn layers and even playable runs. I don't think the talked demo shows much of the library...


Ehm of course it doesn't. People judge too much too early imo.

EDIT: Okay, maybe it sounds a little like a saw wave in the teaser...
Could be overhyped, mix wise. Who knows how it sounds out of da box.


----------



## cqd

Consona said:


> Haven't heard the demo yet, but the library is said to have 5 dyn layers and even playable runs. I don't think the talked demo shows much of the library...



You only need 2..


----------



## Ihnoc

VinRice said:


> You haven't be paying attention. This will be the first library on their SINE player which allows you to keep instruments 'in the cloud' and download only when you need them. Additionally you can mix your own mic balance and re-save that as a new set of files so that only one signal is needed on disc and you can delete the rest.



Respectfully, do you know that is the implementation for certain; that a new sample set can be made from the supplied microphones and those microphones can then be deleted?

If that is based on some thread or experience that would be good to link. If it is based on the promo trailer for their player, I got the _impression_ that the microphones selected were loaded and layered on load, meaning the originals would still have to be on disc and the benefit is to RAM footprint only. Hence my asking...


----------



## Bluemount Score

cqd said:


> You only need 2..


Happy BBCSO user confirmed


----------



## Olfirf

VinRice said:


> You haven't be paying attention. This will be the first library on their SINE player which allows you to keep instruments 'in the cloud' and download only when you need them. Additionally you can mix your own mic balance and re-save that as a new set of files so that only one signal is needed on disc and you can delete the rest.


Actually, I am not really sure YOU got that right ...  So, you want to download the mic positions from the internet, as soon as you need them? To me, it is actually enough to wait for them to load from disk, but I guess your internet connection is really fast, or ...


----------



## Damarus

Olfirf said:


> Actually, I am not really sure YOU got that right ...  So, you want to download the mic positions from the internet, as soon as you need them? To me, it is actually enough to wait for them to load from disk, but I guess your internet connection is really fast, or ...



No no, its basically - You only want 3 mic positions, only download 3 mic positions. You dont need to download 680GB all at once


----------



## Olfirf

Ihnoc said:


> Respectfully, do you know that is the implementation for certain; that a new sample set can be made from the supplied microphones and those microphones can then be deleted?
> 
> If that is based on some thread or experience that would be good to link. If it is based on the promo trailer for their player, I got the _impression_ that the microphones selected were loaded and layered on load, meaning the originals would still have to be on disc and the benefit is to RAM footprint only. Hence my asking...


Yep, I think he didn't quite think about it. I remember that the Sine player is supposed to make custom mixes and consolidate them on your SSD/HD. This is brilliant, as you computer will be less busy playing only one mic mix vs a combo of mics.
On the OT web site they write this:
*Download A La Carte *
Rather than downloading an entire collection, you can choose those instruments and mic positions that you currently need.

Which just means, you do not have to download every mic position. But of course, in order to do your custom mix, you need all mic positions on your drive, otherwise, how else would you be able to preview them? That wouldn't make any sense at all. 
I guess, he just mixed those things up, a little ...


----------



## Olfirf

Damarus said:


> No no, its basically - You only want 3 mic positions, only download 3 mic positions. You dont need to download 680GB all at once


Yes, that is how I understand their web site as well. But that is something else then loading them from the cloud on demand, isn't it?


----------



## Damarus

Olfirf said:


> Yes, that is how I understand their web site as well. But that is something else then loading them from the cloud on demand, isn't it?



Yeah I can't imagine the need to download an Ambient mic in the middle of writing a cue just to delete it right after


----------



## Greg

Wheres the low end


----------



## TimCox

Turn your speakers up!

BLAUWWWW


----------



## lp59burst

VinRice said:


> Smaller company, less marketing, fewer enemies.


"_enemies_"...? that seems a bit extreme...

perhaps these less dramatic nouns; _detractors, critics,_ or these adjectives; _dissatisfied, displeased, disappointed_... would work better...


----------



## shawnsingh

Have to say I don't agree with people calling this unnatural and unrealistic. It's an unusually large brass ensemble playing cuivre fff. It makes sense to me that it has high frequency bite and a supersaw-ish sound.

Sincerely asking, not trying to be combative - what would you have expected a6 / a12 ffff to sound like?

On the opposite side, one of the biggest gripes people had with Berlin Brass was that it is too "tame", people felt it didn't have a true ff layer. I think it did have ff, but just that players were trying to get a pure round sound instead of the bright brassy sound. So in my words I don't feel it was missing ff, but I felt it was missing a cuivre kind of sustain variant.

Perhaps this JXL demo was a response to that, to help people feel confident this library would definitely have that brassy power at the highest velocity layer.


----------



## jcrosby

INTERNET FORUM:

Noun, plural _*Internet forums*_, *in·ter·net **fo·rums, fo·ra:*

A virtual discussion where people often find a way to ruin something they'd otherwise be interested in; often due to an overeagerness to agree with one another fueled by _misdirection, projection,_ or simply a unwillingness to voice an _unpopular_ opinion in a public environment.

Also See:

_Voting against one's own interest.
Why we can't have nice things.
One bad apple spoils the bunch
Hey look over here!_


----------



## Zero&One

shawnsingh said:


> Sincerely asking, not trying to be combative - what would you have expected a6 / a12 ffff to sound like?



I hoped for it to sound at least like this teaser or better.


----------



## I like music

James H said:


> I hoped for it to sound at least like this teaser or better.




I remember this trailer! Nearly lost my socks! _That's_ how you do a trailer.


----------



## Zee

One point that i like about this is that they recorded it in Teldex too, gonna blend with Berlin and the Arks to some degree


----------



## Saxer

The JXL teaser sounds like playable Braaaams to me.


----------



## boxheadboy50

James H said:


> I hoped for it to sound at least like this teaser or better.



Holy balls. I've never seen this teaser. That's friggin' amazing.


----------



## Ronny D. Ana

boxheadboy50 said:


> Holy balls. I've never seen this teaser. That's friggin' amazing.


Yes! I'd rather buy these!


----------



## shawnsingh

The percussion makes a huge difference on that Berlin brass demo as well. I think if you try to imagine the JXL demo with additional orchestrated parts it might sound just as compelling, though a bit more epic then classic


----------



## 2chris

I understand people reacting to the product information like sections and velocity layers. What I don't understand is drawing major conclusions based on a super short demo. I enjoyed the demo because the trombones sounded freaking awesome. I could totally hear something like that in a new blockbuster action or scifi movie. I won't buy it because I need to focus more on getting better with what I have. If it were like $300 on intro - I would have bought it immediatly. I'm sure it's worth the price, and I'm a JXL fan, but it's a little rich for a hobbyist that needs to work on skills rather than have projects to fit this into.

I guess $750 will be the going price for "blockbuster" film scoring pro "signature" libraries now.


----------



## Ronny D. Ana

2chris said:


> I won't buy it because I need to focus more on getting better with what I have.



Totally agree!



2chris said:


> If it were like $300 on intro - I would have bought it immediately. I'm sure it's worth the price



If there was more acoustic information (more demos) or a demo version or the possibility to resell them if I won't not like them after all



2chris said:


> and I'm a JXL fan



Definitely agree!



2chris said:


> but it's a little rich for a hobbyist that needs to work on skills rather than have projects to fit this into.



MeToo


----------



## 2chris

Ronny D. Ana said:


> Totally agree!
> 
> 
> 
> If there was more acoustic information (more demos) or a demo version or the possibility to resell them if I won't not like them after all
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely agree!
> 
> 
> 
> MeToo



Maybe it's idealistic of me, but I get the feeling JXL wouldn't put his name on this if it wasn't up to some level of quality. Plus, Orchestral Tools makes some great libraries. My hesitation is only the price and it not working on kontakt (my preferred sampler). If they do some carve outs like spitfire has with the solo instruments, I'd be really tempted to buy the 'bones.


----------



## gjelul

James H said:


> I hoped for it to sound at least like this teaser or better.




This indeed, sounds like a brass section...


----------



## karelpsota

I guess the brass sound is reflected by the lavalier voice mix: harsh and compressed 

Mix is a bit off on the demo. Some brass patches are cutting more than they should in the high end. 0:22 is too bright and scooped. It kind of messes with the positioning of the patches.

Everything is fixable with EQ though. I'm not "too" worried.


----------



## VinRice

Olfirf said:


> Yes, that is how I understand their web site as well. But that is something else then loading them from the cloud on demand, isn't it?



Who suggested that? Not me. You were complaining about saving disc space and I pointed out that you only need to download the instruments and mics you want to use. Obviously you aren't going to stream them from OT's servers, that would be stupid.

Additionally "Merge your mix into a single mic position. This allows you to use all mic positions for the resources of a single one." Seems pretty straightforward to me.


----------



## NoamL

Like you Karel, I'm keeping an open mind, this could still be great.

I'm sure the entire library isn't processed samples! They might've done like Heavyocity and had a natural vs processed halves of the library...



shawnsingh said:


> The percussion makes a huge difference on that Berlin brass demo as well. I think if you try to imagine the JXL demo with additional orchestrated parts it might sound just as compelling, though a bit more epic then classic



Yeah, that demo is strongly written around the samples as well.

You can hear a more clear version of it here (25:32)


----------



## VinRice

lp59burst said:


> "_enemies_"...? that seems a bit extreme...
> 
> perhaps these less dramatic nouns; _detractors, critics,_ or these adjectives; _dissatisfied, displeased, disappointed_... would work better...


 
I was being succinct and 'pithy'. It's a style thing.


----------



## Geocranium

NoamL said:


> Like you Karel, I'm keeping an open mind, this could still be great.
> 
> I'm sure the entire library isn't processed samples! They might've done like Heavyocity and had a natural vs processed halves of the library...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that demo is strongly written around the samples as well.
> 
> You can hear a more clear version of it here (25:32)




Listening to the exposed brass bits of the Berlin Brass teaser vs the JXL teaser, the JXL absolutely crushes it in terms of upper dynamics and volume. BB is like a nice forte/fortissimo at the symphony, while JXL is like a face-melting, fry-your-nose-hairs off level.


----------



## Daniel James

Almost 700gig xD I literally don't even have space for it. I have no more external hard drive slots and I already purged libraries I never use. 

Really hope the custom download sizes are more realistic for me. 

Sounds interesting at the minute, really quite harsh in the higher end, and maybe just me but it feels like the bass is missing somewhat??

Big and bold midrange though, so I am curious to hear more.

-DJ


----------



## Eptesicus

Daniel James said:


> Almost 700gig xD I literally don't even have space for it. I have no more external hard drive slots and I already purged libraries I never use.
> 
> Really hope the custom download sizes are more realistic for me.
> 
> Sounds interesting at the minute, really quite harsh in the higher end, and maybe just me but it feels like the bass is missing somewhat??
> 
> Big and bold midrange though, so I am curious to hear more.
> 
> -DJ



Isnt it 290gb (compressed)?


----------



## Daniel James

Eptesicus said:


> Isnt it 290gb (compressed)?



Fair play I may be completely wrong there. This spec on the site wasn't clear to me immediatly.

'690GB of samples (300GB SINEarc compressed)'

Its either 690gb of samples or 300gb of samples. If it is in fact the 300gb samples, then the 690gb number is irrelevant and sort of confusing.

Whatever the file size is when you are done with it *is* the file size, it doesn't matter how much it was before compression.... Thats like saying an mp3 is 100 megs because thats what the wav file it was compressed from was.

300gb it much more manageable, I would still have to move stuff around though.

-DJ


----------



## MartinH.

Daniel James said:


> Its either 690gb of samples or 300gb of samples. If it is in fact the 300gb samples, then the 690gb number is irrelevant and sort of confusing.



They understandably just don't want to downplay the sample content size just because their compression rate is higher than on standard kontakt libs. I didn't find the statement confusing, but if they wanted they could clarify that by inserting "on disk" after the 300GB or something like that. 




Daniel James said:


> Whatever the file size is when you are done with it *is* the file size, it doesn't matter how much it was before compression.... Thats like saying an mp3 is 100 megs because thats what the wav file it was compressed from was.



It matters if you want to calculate the total length of sampled content from size, mics, samplerate, bitrate etc.. I don't think they did anything wrong in naming both. It's transparent what is what.


----------



## AEF

karelpsota said:


> I guess the brass sound is reflected by the lavalier voice mix: harsh and compressed
> 
> Mix is a bit off on the demo. Some brass patches are cutting more than they should in the high end. 0:22 is too bright and scooped. It kind of messes with the positioning of the patches.
> 
> Everything is fixable with EQ though. I'm not "too" worried.



not a mix thing to me. compression and eq arent evil, even if overdone. the issue to me is the samples sound like saw waves.

putting a live horns a6 recording through a fairchild and 1073 doesnt turn them into an access virus....


----------



## Olfirf

You can calculate the size easily. We know there are 16 Mic positions and there is 690Gb for all of them. Assuming, all the mics are stereo, there should be 690/16 = 43.125 GB.
Compressed it is about 19gb per mic position.


----------



## Joël Dollié

Current teaser sounds like bees. I'm looking forward to hearing it unprocessed. Could be great.


----------



## Daniel James

MartinH. said:


> They understandably just don't want to downplay the sample content size just because their compression rate is higher than on standard kontakt libs. I didn't find the statement confusing, but if they wanted they could clarify that by inserting "on disk" after the 300GB or something like that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It matters if you want to calculate the total length of sampled content from size, mics, samplerate, bitrate etc.. I don't think they did anything wrong in naming both. It's transparent what is what.



Yeah, good word! I think my confusion is coming from the fact they dont list the on disk size. Will I need the 690gb for download? will the folder ever be 690gb? or is it just there to compare gigabyte dick size? TBH I am not a fan of large file sizes in sample libraries, I have seen incredible work done with tiny footprints. Perhaps developers should start taking the hard disk capacity of their users a bit more seriously, its seems like its being over looked by most of the bigger developers (not just OT).

If your sample library sounds 600gb's better than a competing product then fine. But you tend to find that size doesn't always (or ever really) equal quality, I felt that way about parts of BBCSO.

To me its more impressive if you manage to make an awesome library with a lower footprint. When I see huge file sizes I just think of the headache that awaits me with downloads, making room, installing, streaming all that data.

So yeah tl;dr Bigger =/= Better

-DJ

And just quick note, I love the OT guys. I just want to be honest with them so they can make the best libraries they can.


----------



## NoamL

From Tobias E in January this year, answering questions on another forum -

_------

<< As I understand it, you balance a mix that you like, press the magic button and it generates a bespoke mix.

yes, that's exactly how it works.

<< But for what? One articulation? One instrument? The entire library?

EDIT: Turns out the system works slightly differently: it will merge all articulations of the instrument you invoke the Mic Merge on. The reason is that we want you to be able to load other articulations later on without having to go through the process again.

<< Also whilst it would be able to reduce the streaming overhead and RAM use, it would increase the storage requirements.

yes. You have to die one death






<< One thing I’d love to see, but very much doubt I will, is the ability to split mic positions up onto different drives.

I actually do not know how the UI implementation of the storage system works exactly, but that would at least be theoretically possible some day in the future. I'm basically answering this to let you know that you can voice it as a feature request if V1 does not support it





------_

So unless something changed, the way this will work is you load up a mix you like, you press the merge button, and it bounces and resaves the samples to your SSD. Presumably it'll require some time, and also an amount of space equal to the amount already used by one single mic position. That'd be on the order of 40-50GB if you generate a custom mix for all instruments in the library.

To me this seems advantageous. I would much rather buy another 2TB SSD that I'll surely get a lot of use out of, and then be able to save the RAM on my networked computer that is already stuffed to the gills. This mic merge idea and the a la carte ordering are both great steps forward from OT. The hesitancy I have is both ideas only work if SINE works!

EDIT: Tobias also said in another comment:

_I was curious re. different mic positions on different drives, so I dug into the concept. As I speculated, it is possible from a technical side but the downloader will by default only ask for a folder per collection. But since you can choose which positions to download, you can download a first batch to drive A and a second batch to drive B. Bit complicated, but it works even in version 1! Maybe this can be improved in later updates!_

So you can download by mic, it seems! this is all from January keep in mind so things might've changed.


----------



## Daniel James

NoamL said:


> To me this seems advantageous. I would much rather buy another 2TB SSD that I'll surely get a lot of use out of, and then be able to save the RAM on my networked computer that is already stuffed to the gills. This mic merge idea and the a la carte ordering are both great steps forward from OT. The hesitancy I have is both ideas only work if SINE works!



But at this rate we will need new SSD's for every new library xD


----------



## MartinH.

Daniel James said:


> Yeah, good word! I think my confusion is coming from the fact they dont list the on disk size. Will I need the 690gb for download? will the folder ever be 690gb? or is it just there to compare gigabyte dick size?



I expect ~300gb on disk. Download either ~300gb with no need for a large buffer to unpack (downloading container compress sample container files directly), or a little less than 300gb total but with need for some free additional space for unpacking. Likely not another full 300gb though, because a la carte downloads should mean they can unpack individually too. Just speculating though.



Daniel James said:


> TBH I am not a fan of large file sizes in sample libraries, I have seen incredible work done with tiny footprints. Perhaps developers should start taking the hard disk capacity of their users a bit more seriously, its seems like its being over looked by most of the bigger developers (not just OT).



I mostly agree, I don't have the resources to use tons of mics anyway.


----------



## Novatlan Sound

NoamL said:


> So unless something changed, the way this will work is you load up a mix you like, you press the merge button, and it bounces and resaves the samples to your SSD. Presumably it'll require some time, and also an amount of space equal to the amount already used by one single mic position.



That is exactly how it works. If you were so inclined, you could download what you want, make your mic merges, then delete the original positions again and just use the mic merge(s).

And you can indeed have individual positions spread across drives. It takes a tiny bit of fiddling, but it works flawlessly. You just need to select the positions you want at a specific location and download them there, then repeat the process for every other location. Or download all to the same space and move them later.

JXL brass needs around 300 GB on disk. The higher amount is listed to show the uncompressed file size, same as with Kontakt libraries.


----------



## 2chris

I have to agree, the size is getting a little out of hand.

I finally broke down and bought a 7200 RPM HDD (thought I was done with these!) to install in my tiny mostly silent case. I have 2 NVME's, 2 SSD's, 2 externals HDD's, and now this addition to stop running out of space.

Performance Samples and Sound Iron are putting out these smallish libraries that sound good. My MODx has a small sample size and sounds pretty great. It's possible. I like Spitfire, but they upped the ante on this bloat war. I built a custom water cooled PC to replace my aging i7, and at some point I'll have to build a RAID array rack in my closet if this trend continues


----------



## Raphioli

NoamL said:


> << As I understand it, you balance a mix that you like, press the magic button and it generates a bespoke mix.
> 
> yes, that's exactly how it works.
> 
> << But for what? One articulation? One instrument? The entire library?
> 
> EDIT: Turns out the system works slightly differently: it will merge all articulations of the instrument you invoke the Mic Merge on. The reason is that we want you to be able to load other articulations later on without having to go through the process again.
> 
> << Also whilst it would be able to reduce the streaming overhead and RAM use, it would increase the storage requirements.



If I were to use this library, I'd probably put it on a cheap dedicated SSD,
because if you're going to be creating a bespoke mix often, I'm assuming thats going to be a lot of writes on your SSD depending on the type of person you are.
I'm probably the type of person who creates a bespoke mix, then would probably want to tweak it the next day, and then the next day. Do that for every project and I think I'll kill my SSD fairly quickly lol


----------



## babylonwaves

Daniel James said:


> Perhaps developers should start taking the hard disk capacity of their users a bit more seriously, its seems like its being over looked by most of the bigger developers (not just OT).


that surely will make all those with their demand for additional dynamic layers (and RRs) happy ... but of course, for some others FFF is just good enough 

"Not just OT" is possibly not really fair to say in this case. From what I've heart you can pick what you download and what not.


----------



## Daniel James

babylonwaves said:


> that surely will make all those with their demand for additional dynamic layers (and RRs) happy ... but of course, for some others FFF is just good enough
> 
> "Not just OT" is possibly not really fair to say in this case. From what I've heart you can pick what you download and what not.



Actually yeah good point I take that back from OT, allowing you to download only what you want *IS* for our benefit! And the more I think about it the more I really appreciate the effort!!! 

And I would take more dynamic layers over more mic positions. I would say in general that I use the 'mix' mic on most libraries like 95% of the time. And when I am not I very very rarely go beyond close, room, and some sort of wide mic.

-DJ


----------



## Chungus

I'm wondering if the modular purchasing system will apply to mics, too. Like, say if one had no interest in mic #X, could one leave it out of the package all-together?


----------



## Zee

Here's a tip that i recently found not everyone knows
if you have spare PCI ports in your rig you can buy a SATA 3 hub that gives you extra ports(4 or 6) and add more SATA 3 SSDs than your standard 4


----------



## David Kudell

Can't wait to hear more of this library! The trailer was a FUN video teaser, loud and boisterous! It's a teaser not a walkthrough!


----------



## Drundfunk

They better hurry with their demos and walkthroughs or I might spend all my money on Black Friday xD (Noire is now part of my collection!). For hard drive space I'm hoping for a good sale on Amazon (internal SSD + external case), so that shouldn't be an issue (except if I run out of money, or Amazon doesn't have a good sale on Samsung SSDs for some reason.)

Edit: I usually don't need that many mic options tho. So I'd rather pay less for a version with basic mic options (but I don't think this will happen).


----------



## constaneum

Daniel James said:


> Almost 700gig xD I literally don't even have space for it. I have no more external hard drive slots and I already purged libraries I never use.



so what have you purged?


----------



## lp59burst

Daniel James said:


> <snip...>I have no more external hard drive slots and I already purged libraries I never use. <snip...>
> 
> 
> constaneum said:
> 
> 
> 
> so what have you purged?
Click to expand...

SAHZS...? 

Sorry, couldn't resist...


----------



## borisb2

MartinH. said:


> They understandably just don't want to downplay the sample content size just because their compression rate is higher than on standard kontakt libs. I didn't find the statement confusing, but if they wanted they could clarify that by inserting "on disk" after the 300GB or something like that.



Well, at the moment, the marketing for every library does that - which I start to find a bit amusing. Time moves on, we don't need compare to how much floppy disks that would have been. Just name the size of the library - and boom. Done.


----------



## Mike Fox

shawnsingh said:


> Have to say I don't agree with people calling this unnatural and unrealistic. It's an unusually large brass ensemble playing cuivre fff. It makes sense to me that it has high frequency bite and a supersaw-ish sound.
> 
> Sincerely asking, not trying to be combative - what would you have expected a6 / a12 ffff to sound like?
> 
> On the opposite side, one of the biggest gripes people had with Berlin Brass was that it is too "tame", people felt it didn't have a true ff layer. I think it did have ff, but just that players were trying to get a pure round sound instead of the bright brassy sound. So in my words I don't feel it was missing ff, but I felt it was missing a cuivre kind of sustain variant.
> 
> Perhaps this JXL demo was a response to that, to help people feel confident this library would definitely have that brassy power at the highest velocity layer.


Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.


----------



## Seycara

My 2 cents; the trailer actually sounds really synthy/artificial to me. As a trumpet player I definitely get the appeal of the cuivre/bells up FFF but the programming (hopefully) just doesn't sound legit (I think it's because of the extremely eq'd mix and the trumpet staccatissimo are too loud/too long). 

Before purchase I would really want to hear the other 4 dynamic layers and how it could fit into a less hyped up setting.


----------



## NYC Composer

Seycara said:


> My 2 cents; the trailer actually sounds really synthy/artificial to me. As a trumpet player I definitely get the appeal of the cuivre/bells up FFF but the programming (hopefully) just doesn't sound legit (I think it's because of the extremely eq'd mix and the trumpet staccatissimo are too loud/too long).
> 
> Before purchase I would really want to hear the other 4 dynamic layers and how it could fit into a less hyped up setting.


I believe you will. I hear little demo elves hammering furiously in the background, and a walkthrough gnome hunched over a sample library muttering into a mic...


----------



## Jerry Growl

Seycara said:


> My 2 cents; the trailer actually sounds really synthy/artificial to me. As a trumpet player I definitely get the appeal of the cuivre/bells up FFF but the programming (hopefully) just doesn't sound legit (I think it's because of the extremely eq'd mix and the trumpet staccatissimo are too loud/too long).
> 
> Before purchase I would really want to hear the other 4 dynamic layers and how it could fit into a less hyped up setting.



Yes, recording a FFFF brass library is a hazardous endeavor, as is standing near a pair of trombones for more than several minutes. Also, very loud music and streaming data compression aren't best friends. 

I have faith in OT & Alan Meyerson and hope to hear in detail what this new library really can do (other than trying to squeeze through the brickwall limiter).


----------



## Dominik

NoamL said:


> Like you Karel, I'm keeping an open mind, this could still be great.


Hey, I read through your posts and really enjoyed your views. Regarding Berlin Brass they correspond totally with my conception. I only own Berlin Brass (and some other more on the sketching side of Brass library) and really need a complement because as you wrote, Berlin Brass is extremely unconsistent. Even the different notes of one player sound completely different in intensity sometimes. Furthermore I always feel like my modwheel should go up higher at least double times because often the loudest it goes is a (for me) felt mf. So, I really need Brass with bite. But I don´t want all these thunderous trailer libraries where I only have 12 Horns at FF to FFFF. I also need pp and in my heaven a sus patch would blend from pp to FFF seamlessly (I know it´s possible, I heard Hans Zimmer play his custom brass library). 
JXL Brass seems to cover all that I ever wanted (except more single players like in Berlin Brass) but we have to take the risk with their damned new player and I don´t know how well velocity cross fading works on that. I totally don´t like crossfading in Berlin Brass. It´s not smooth, but all of a sudden the new layer kicks in. Did they do it better this time? The explanation, smooth velocity cross fading because of many recorded layers is nonsense.

I understand that companies want to skip the fees NI takes for using Kontakt but I am not sure if this is the right way in general because programming a decent sampler software is likewise a expensive operation. Kontakt is industry standard and works absolutely fine on most systems. To do a new player is a large risk for the company and more so for the potential buyers of a library. I experienced that with Hans Zimmer Strings from spitfire which I can hardly use because of ear-piercing sample errors sometimes. Furthermore, the unabillity to purge unused samples like in Kontakt combined with an increase of sample error problems when increasing streaming values leads to an enormous RAM imprint. 

I remember some similar problems when East West decided to move their libraries to Play. 
But there are also other examples for players running well like MusicLab, Ivory II, Addictive Drums ....
But they all lack certain features of Kontakt.

So, I really am in two minds about all of this.

You mentioned earlier that CSB is great for you and I really think about this as well. But somehow I don´t like the reverb tail on it. Sounds very middy and long. Teldex is a much better choice for Brass I think. I know you can´t answer my question whether I should just preorder JXL Brass or take another library but maybe you have something to say to that which a haven´t thought of yet.


----------



## Eptesicus

James H said:


> I hoped for it to sound at least like this teaser or better.





That sounds a million times better than the Junkie Xl brass teaser.

Like in a different league.

It actually sounds like real brass and not a bunch of angry bees.

I'm still holding judgement as really we need more demos.

I am very concerned though because you would have thought Orchestral Tools/Tom would have made sure that the opening teaser sounded phenomenal . If that is the best the library can do...well.


----------



## MartinH.

Sorry if this has been posted before:


----------



## Seycara

Dominik said:


> Hey, I read through your posts and really enjoyed your views. Regarding Berlin Brass they correspond totally with my conception. I only own Berlin Brass (and some other more on the sketching side of Brass library) and really need a complement because as you wrote, Berlin Brass is extremely unconsistent. Even the different notes of one player sound completely different in intensity sometimes. Furthermore I always feel like my modwheel should go up higher at least double times because often the loudest it goes is a (for me) felt mf. So, I really need Brass with bite. But I don´t want all these thunderous trailer libraries where I only have 12 Horns at FF to FFFF. I also need pp and in my heaven a sus patch would blend from pp to FFF seamlessly (I know it´s possible, I heard Hans Zimmer play his custom brass library).
> JXL Brass seems to cover all that I ever wanted (except more single players like in Berlin Brass) but we have to take the risk with their damned new player and I don´t know how well velocity cross fading works on that. I totally don´t like crossfading in Berlin Brass. It´s not smooth, but all of a sudden the new layer kicks in. Did they do it better this time? The explanation, smooth velocity cross fading because of many recorded layers is nonsense.
> 
> I understand that companies want to skip the fees NI takes for using Kontakt but I am not sure if this is the right way in general because programming a decent sampler software is likewise a expensive operation. Kontakt is industry standard and works absolutely fine on most systems. To do a new player is a large risk for the company and more so for the potential buyers of a library. I experienced that with Hans Zimmer Strings from spitfire which I can hardly use because of ear-piercing sample errors sometimes. Furthermore, the unabillity to purge unused samples like in Kontakt combined with an increase of sample error problems when increasing streaming values leads to an enormous RAM imprint.
> 
> I remember some similar problems when East West decided to move their libraries to Play.
> But there are also other examples for players running well like MusicLab, Ivory II, Addictive Drums ....
> But they all lack certain features of Kontakt.
> 
> So, I really am in two minds about all of this.
> 
> You mentioned earlier that CSB is great for you and I really think about this as well. But somehow I don´t like the reverb tail on it. Sounds very middy and long. Teldex is a much better choice for Brass I think. I know you can´t answer my question whether I should just preorder JXL Brass or take another library but maybe you have something to say to that which a haven´t thought of yet.



Berlin brass definitely has FF, but if you're doing most trailer work or "epic" music, than Berlin brass is not for you imo.

Berlin brass has a beautiful symphonic, almost concert sound. While this may not match up to the absolute rage of e.g. Trailer Brass, It covers the regular FF, MF, and P dynamic almost perfectly for use in impressionist/post-romantic/old hollywood style pieces.

However, I do agree that the consistency needs improvement, hopefully something that @OT_Tobias will tell us. Many of the patches (I'm look at your horn IV) have drastically different dynamics at the same mod wheel volumes that could at least be smoothed out a bit for much better user QoL.


----------



## Dominik

Seycara said:


> Berlin brass definitely has FF, but if you're doing most trailer work or "epic" music, than Berlin brass is not for you imo.
> 
> Berlin brass has a beautiful symphonic, almost concert sound. While this may not match up to the absolute rage of e.g. Trailer Brass, It covers the regular FF, MF, and P dynamic almost perfectly for use in impressionist/post-romantic/old hollywood style pieces.
> 
> However, I do agree that the consistency needs improvement, hopefully something that @OT_Tobias will tell us. Many of the patches (I'm look at your horn IV) have drastically different dynamics at the same mod wheel volumes that could at least be smoothed out a bit for much better user QoL.


Just not true. Horn 2 has FF and maybe the horns ensemble. Besides that you can find FF only in the Marcato or shorts patches. The trombones are a nightmare, most notes are more than dull even at loudest level. Even the bass trombone has no bite at all. Legato is always a little below FF in every patch except Bells Up. 

This talking about trailer music is nonsence (excuse me, I don´t want to be rude but I heard the same thing from OT and it is just not true). Classical music also needs loud brass. There are also not few pieces requiring the players to play as loud as they can (I attended many classical concerts as a recording assistant). By the way, I don´t do much trailer music, just ordinary symphonic music. Besides that I mocked a Richard Strauss piece lately and tried to match the sound to a real recording which was just not possible because Berlin Brass is way too weak. Again, with Marcato you can cover some of the loud stuff but often also legato or sustain is needed because with Marcato you can´t shape the slope of the loudness curve. 

I totally am on line with Tom when he sais, he needs a brass library which covers the very softest to the very loudest. It´s just what I need when I want all possibilities as a composer. Nobody forces me to use FFF, but if it´s there its just great.

I agree that there is much useful stuff in Berlin Brass and it´s really one of the most lyrical brass libraries I know. But I really don´t want to complement Berlin Brass with another library for the loud stuff. One library should cover all, because how authentic is this supposed to be when you add another library for different dynamic layers?
I also agree that Toms teaser track is a little over the edge. I am most of all interested in the dynamics of the library, not only the loudest tones. But since I always want to crank up my modwheel I have to admit that I am very tempted by this brute force.


----------



## Seycara

Dominik said:


> Just not true. Horn 2 has FF and maybe the horns ensemble. Besides that you can find FF only in the Marcato or shorts patches. The trombones are a nightmare, most notes are more than dull even at loudest level. Even the bass trombone has no bite at all. Legato is always a little below FF in every patch except Bells Up.
> 
> This talking about trailer music is nonsence (excuse me, I don´t want to be rude but I heard the same thing from OT and it is just not true). Classical music also needs loud brass. There are also not few pieces requiring the players to play as loud as they can (I attended many classical concerts as a recording assistant). By the way, I don´t do much trailer music, just ordinary symphonic music. Besides that I mocked a Richard Strauss piece lately and tried to match the sound to a real recording which was just not possible because Berlin Brass is way too weak. Again, with Marcato you can cover some of the loud stuff but often also legato or sustain is needed because with Marcato you can´t shape the slope of the loudness curve.
> 
> I totally am on line with Tom when he sais, he needs a brass library which covers the very softest to the very loudest. It´s just what I need when I want all possibilities as a composer. Nobody forces me to use FFF, but if it´s there its just great.
> 
> I agree that there is much useful stuff in Berlin Brass and it´s really one of the most lyrical brass libraries I know. But I really don´t want to complement Berlin Brass with another library for the loud stuff. One library should cover all, because how authentic is this supposed to be when you add another library for different dynamic layers?
> I also agree that Toms teaser track is a little over the edge. I am most of all interested in the dynamics of the library, not only the loudest tones. But since I always want to crank up my modwheel I have to admit that I am very tempted by this brute force.



I respect your opinion; you are working with many projects that need that kind of dynamic edge but for me Berlin Brass covers 99% of the brass writing I ever do, not to mention the unique option of having so many individual instruments unmatched by except MSB.

You sound like someone who would benefit greatly from owning JXL brass so this may be the right library for you.


----------



## Dominik

Seycara said:


> I respect your opinion; you are working with many projects that need that kind of dynamic edge but for me Berlin Brass covers 99% of the brass writing I ever do, not to mention the unique option of having so many individual instruments unmatched by except MSB.
> 
> You sound like someone who would benefit greatly from owning JXL brass so this may be the right library for you.


Well, if you don´t need very loud dynamics than Berlin Brass is really a good library. I also very much like writing individual voices within a section.

I would be the first one to grab JXL Brass if they had made it a Kontakt library. Have to think about taking the risk.


----------



## Geocranium

Eptesicus said:


> I am very concerned though because you would have thought Orchestral Tools/Tom would have made sure that the opening teaser sounded phenomenal . If that is the best the library can do...well.



Who's to say that they don't think it sounds phenomenal? They seem pretty confident considering this is one of their biggest new releases in a while. The teaser is all over OT and JXL's social media. This may just be a case of differing tastes.


----------



## Eptesicus

Geocranium said:


> They seem pretty confident considering this is one of their biggest new releases in a while. The teaser is all over OT and JXL's social media.




That is all pretty meaningless.

Look at Synchron Strings. VSL touted it as the best thing ever but it was horrible, and an utterly pointless library.

I hope we arent on for the same thing here.

A massive, highly anticipated library on a new player and from a well renowned sample libarary creator that turns out to be a massive disappointment...


----------



## Floris

I agree with the sentiment to wait it out. Orchestral Tools has some GREAT brass, both with Berlin and Ark and obviously just a carbon copy of those already great ones would not be much of an addition so it could be interesting to have a library in a different direction that's more up-front and pushed to the max in recording and even processing.

That being said, I'm not blown away by this yet and miss the natural touch I personally enjoyed from OT's other offerings. However, the large amount of section sizes and mentioned flexibility could make it a whole lot more interesting!


----------



## Eptesicus

Floris said:


> I agree with the sentiment to wait it out. Orchestral Tools has some GREAT brass, both with Berlin and Ark and obviously just a carbon copy of those already great ones would not be much of an addition so it could be interesting to have a library in a different direction that's more up-front and pushed to the max in recording and even processing.
> 
> That being said, I'm not blown away by this yet and miss the natural touch I personally enjoyed from OT's other offerings. However, the large amount of section sizes and mentioned flexibility could make it a whole lot more interesting!



The thing is i don't think anyone wants an overly processed sound - so much so that it starts to sound fake or synthy.

I would think most want a library that sounds big AND very realistic.


----------



## jamwerks

I've not always been happy with OT brass. Really hoping for a home run here!


----------



## I like music

jamwerks said:


> I've not always been happy with OT brass. Really hoping for a home run here!



Whenever I hear about OT brass from other people, I always think of it as the biggest missed opportunity e.g. the consistency element - if it was there - would likely make it one of the best libraries produced, no?

I don't own it, but its the impression I get from people (and of course that one more dynamic)

Because the concept _really_ appeals to me.


----------



## janila

The louder, louder demo is an embarrassment. It should have never been released.


----------



## Raphioli

Seycara said:


> Berlin brass definitely has FF, but if you're doing most trailer work or "epic" music, than Berlin brass is not for you imo.



If music like the main theme for "Superman" is considered "epic music", I guess you're correct.
But if not, Berlin Brass doesn't have the dynamic layer in the sustains to achieve that sound.
It only has it in the shorts. 
And time stretching the Marcato Longs has its limits.

Berlin Brass could have been the best brass library out there, even with MSB, JXL Brass or CSB, if it only had those additional dynamic layers.
I do hope they go back in and samples those layers.


----------



## NoamL

John Powell uses Berlin as his main brass together with Cinebrass. 

IMo the main strike against using Berlin Brass productively on deadline (to the point that I wonder how JP does it!) is that the dynamics programming is inconsistent. Not WILDLY inconsistent, but unbalanced enough that you have to program CC1, velocity, sometimes even timing, separately for all 4 horns (same with the trumpets and trombones). 

This library won't have that issue, perforce, as it has a single soloist for each instrument. Also not worried about OT getting a good sound out of Teldex and their array of mics. They've got a consistent record of quality sampling in Teldex.

The question marks for me are:

- dynamic range (5 layers is really promising though)

- seeing the library put together a realistic phrase with different articulations & legato

- above all, seeing the player working well ideally in VEPro

Hopefully there's more to learn before Black Friday. I'm also checking out Spitfire Symphonic Brass.


----------



## Raphioli

NoamL said:


> IMo the main strike against using Berlin Brass productively on deadline (to the point that I wonder how JP does it!) is that the dynamics programming is inconsistent.



I'm assuming his assistants might have reprogrammed it to be consistent, like you did with the french horns


----------



## erica-grace

NoamL said:


> John Powell uses Berlin as his main brass together with Cinebrass.



As the libraries he writes with and does mockups with? Because that means absolutely nothing.

Or as the libraries that make up the primary brass we hear in his scores? Because that says a heck of a lot.


----------



## JEPA

the teaser doesn't sound "next generation" as announced, but should we wait to hear more...


----------



## Fitz

NoamL said:


> John Powell uses Berlin as his main brass together with Cinebrass.
> 
> IMo the main strike against using Berlin Brass productively on deadline (to the point that I wonder how JP does it!) is that the dynamics programming is inconsistent. Not WILDLY inconsistent, but unbalanced enough that you have to program CC1, velocity, sometimes even timing, separately for all 4 horns (same with the trumpets and trombones).
> 
> This library won't have that issue, perforce, as it has a single soloist for each instrument. Also not worried about OT getting a good sound out of Teldex and their array of mics. They've got a consistent record of quality sampling in Teldex.
> 
> The question marks for me are:
> 
> - dynamic range (5 layers is really promising though)
> 
> - seeing the library put together a realistic phrase with different articulations & legato
> 
> - above all, seeing the player working well ideally in VEPro
> 
> Hopefully there's more to learn before Black Friday. I'm also checking out Spitfire Symphonic Brass.


Spitfire Brass is great, you can get it too sound decently loud. The bones kinda lack but you can make it work if you layer it.


----------



## Geocranium

Eptesicus said:


> The thing is i don't think anyone wants an overly processed sound - so much so that it starts to sound fake or synthy.
> 
> I would think most want a library that sounds big AND very realistic.



The sound in the JXL demo is extremely in vogue nowadays. I think this forum can be a bit of a bubble in terms of what people enjoy. There's absolutely a huge market of people that listen to larger-than-life and "epic" orchestra stuff and subsequently, a market of composers looking to write it. JXL's Twitter post announcing the library and playing the demo has literally over a hundred comments praising how cool it is and it has thousands of likes. 

"Epic" remixes of popular songs have views in the multi-millions. There's a braaaam remake of Moonlight Sonata and other Beethoven pieces that has over 11 million views. Maybe it's not to the refined tastes of VI-C, but JXL brass and its opening teaser are absolutely a hallmark of contemporary popular orchestra sound. I think this product is far from being a flop, and saying no one wants it for its sound shows a pretty big disconnect with popular media today.


----------



## Eptesicus

Geocranium said:


> The sound in the JXL demo is extremely in vogue nowadays. I think this forum can be a bit of a bubble in terms of what people enjoy. There's absolutely a huge market of people that listen to larger-than-life and "epic" orchestra stuff and subsequently, a market of composers looking to write it. JXL's Twitter post announcing the library and playing the demo has literally over a hundred comments praising how cool it is and it has thousands of likes.
> 
> "Epic" remixes of popular songs have views in the multi-millions. There's a braaaam remake of Moonlight Sonata and other Beethoven pieces that has over 11 million views. Maybe it's not to the refined tastes of VI-C, but JXL brass and its opening teaser are absolutely a hallmark of contemporary popular orchestra sound. I think this product is far from being a flop, and saying no one wants it for its sound shows a pretty big disconnect with popular media today.




But I dont dispute that. I would like big sections as well.

I'm not sure you understand the critisicm being leveled at it.

You have conflated two entirely different things. Ie that for there to be big sections, it must sound like this.

I've also never said it is a "flop". I have said in this thread I will reserve judgement until I hear more demos, but based on this teaser alone (as that is all we gave), I dont like what I hear.

It just doesn't sound right or natural. Talos, Forzo, Trailer brass, cinebrass have 12x player sections and they all sound great. This sounds like bees.


----------



## MartinH.

Eptesicus said:


> But I dont dispute that. I would like big sections as well.
> 
> I'm not sure you understand the critisicm being leveled at it.
> 
> You have conflated two entirely different things. Ie that for there to be big sections, it must sound like this.
> 
> I've also never said it is a "flop". I have said in this thread I will reserve judgement until I hear more demos, but based on this teaser alone (as that is all we gave), I dont like what I hear.
> 
> It just doesn't sound right or natural. Talos, Forzo, Trailer brass, cinebrass have 12x player sections and they all sound great. This sounds like bees.



You've made so many negative comments about this library in this thread, I could have sworn by now you _want _it to fail. Imagine my surprise when you said in the other thread that it's still up for consideration for you to buy. Just so you know: I don't disagree with your comments on the trailer sound, but you repeating them over and over and over really makes you look like a hater who wants this to fail. Maybe just give it a rest till the next demo is released and you have something new to add? That goes for others too really.


----------



## Eptesicus

MartinH. said:


> You've made so many negative comments about this library in this thread, I could have sworn by now you _want _it to fail. Imagine my surprise when you said in the other thread that it's still up for consideration for you to buy. Just so you know: I don't disagree with your comments on the trailer sound, but you repeating them over and over and over really makes you look like a hater who wants this to fail. Maybe just give it a rest till the next demo is released and you have something new to add? That goes for others too really.



I will post as much or as little as I like thanks.

I'm not sure why you seem so upset about critisicm of this library, or feel like you can attempt to censor people on here?

If the library warrants praise, I will post praise.

If I think it doesnt sound good, I will say so.


----------



## handz

Geocranium said:


> The sound in the JXL demo is extremely in vogue nowadays. I think this forum can be a bit of a bubble in terms of what people enjoy. There's absolutely a huge market of people that listen to larger-than-life and "epic" orchestra stuff and subsequently, a market of composers looking to write it. JXL's Twitter post announcing the library and playing the demo has literally over a hundred comments praising how cool it is and it has thousands of likes.
> 
> "Epic" remixes of popular songs have views in the multi-millions. There's a braaaam remake of Moonlight Sonata and other Beethoven pieces that has over 11 million views. Maybe it's not to the refined tastes of VI-C, but JXL brass and its opening teaser are absolutely a hallmark of contemporary popular orchestra sound. I think this product is far from being a flop, and saying no one wants it for its sound shows a pretty big disconnect with popular media today.



Sadly you are right, unnatural overprocessed orchestral music is what "people like" now. 
I personally do not like the sound of this brass library, but there is for sure a huge market for it and I really think that Tom is a wonderful personality giving a lot to the community, still doing youtube tutorials and Q/A videos - quite remarkable for a professional on a level he is on - he is hard to not like. So I wish him success with this library. He is for me a somehow something in between Classical Orchestral style and Zimmers complete departure from traditional music.


----------



## Eptesicus

erica-grace said:


> As the libraries he writes with and does mockups with? Because that means absolutely nothing.
> 
> Or as the libraries that make up the primary brass we hear in his scores? Because that says a heck of a lot.



John will always have live recordings 99% of the time.

His scores, orchestral wise are always seemingly massive and fully recorded.

I still think simply using something in his template likely highlights how good it is. He probably submits lots of demos for directors using mock ups (and therefore Berlin brass).

He is such a great composer, that it's making me think Berlin brass is the one to get


----------



## Eptesicus

NoamL said:


> - seeing the library put together a realistic phrase with different articulations & legato



This is the aspect that will make it or break it for me.


----------



## Chungus

Geocranium said:


> There's a braaaam remake of Moonlight Sonata and other Beethoven pieces that has over 11 million views.



This hurts my soul.


----------



## pawelmorytko

Eptesicus said:


> John will always have live recordings 99% of the time.
> 
> His scores, orchestral wise are always seemingly massive and fully recorded.
> 
> I still think simply using something in his template likely highlights how good it is. He probably submits lots of demos for directors using mock ups (and therefore Berlin brass).
> 
> He is such a great composer, that it's making me think Berlin brass is the one to get



I agree, Berlin Brass is on my list to get as well, at least just the ensemble patches. And when people say that "doesn't matter what library X composer uses if they record a live orchestra in the end anyway". Well to me it matters because these composers are obviously as passionate about midi mock ups and strive for realism with sampling just like we are. I've heard John Powell's comparison of midi vs real orchestra for his Solo score and it really shows how far you can get with samples.


----------



## Consona

Chungus said:


> This hurts my soul.


I wonder if Mozart or Beethoven lived today, whether they would be like "Delete this!" or "You gotta put some more distortion there, bro."


----------



## muk

Consona said:


> I wonder if Mozart or Beethoven lived today, whether they would be like "Delete this!" or "You gotta put some more distortion there, bro."



Beethoven would have despised it and held the maker in utter contempt, that much is clear. He thought Rossini's music was trite...


----------



## Consona

Yea, out of those two, it would probably be Mozart who would use synthesizers.


----------



## Chungus

Consona said:


> I wonder if Mozart or Beethoven lived today, whether they would be like "Delete this!" or "You gotta put some more distortion there, bro."


I reckon most composers of yore would think the braaams music of today is a parody.

But with that said, Wagner would probably in to it. I mean, look at this poor man, below. This isn't the face of some-one who's having a good time. xD


----------



## VinRice

Consona said:


> Yea, out of those two, it would probably be Mozart who would use synthesizers.



100%


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

erica-grace said:


> As the libraries he writes with and does mockups with? Because that means absolutely nothing.


Presumably, John Powell still has to use sample libraries to work quickly, and want to get his cues approved. And he can afford to own and use any libraries he wants in order to do this.

To me, what he chooses has some significance.


----------



## Consona

Chungus said:


> I mean, look at this poor man, below. This isn't the face of some-one who's having a good time. xD









_Epiiic  _


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Consona said:


> _Epiiic _


N has samples that can do this.


----------



## Raphioli

Consona said:


> _Epiiic _



Next-gen epic percussion right there.
Let Chris Hemsworth do the "hammering" though.


----------



## erica-grace

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Presumably, John Powell still has to use sample libraries to work quickly, and want to get his cues approved. And he can afford to own and use any libraries he wants in order to do this.
> 
> To me, what he chooses has some significance.



Not to me.

I am sure John Powell can use any library he wants - he probably has a ton.

But when an a-list composer uses a library - it's for mock-up purposes only. Which means that THEY like the library, and/or THEIR ASSISTANTS like the library. Which means nothing in terms of how good the library is. it just means they like it, that's all. Not something you should base your decision making on.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

erica-grace said:


> Which means nothing in terms of how good the library is.


He owns a ton and probably has the best information available. Seeing what someone in that situation chooses to use does have _some_ meaning to me and, it seems, others on this forum as well. By "some" I mean not a huge amount, but not nothing either. It's just another data point to consider.


----------



## erica-grace

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Seeing what someone in that situation chooses to use does have _some_ meaning to me



That's fine, but not to me.

It says that HE likes it, but that doesn't tell me that I should like it to. If that what it tells you, then go for it!


----------



## LamaRose

Consona said:


> I wonder if Mozart or Beethoven lived today, whether they would be like "Delete this!" or "You gotta put some more distortion there, bro."



Honestly, Beethoven would probably be writing an oscar-worthy soundtrack every week, and Mozart would be the richest rap writer/producer in the known Universe... even Beethoven would be begging him to write some rap for his next project.


----------



## Consona

LamaRose said:


> Honestly, Beethoven would probably be writing an oscar-worthy soundtrack every week, and Mozart would be the richest rap writer/producer in the known Universe... even Beethoven would be begging him to write some rap for his next project.


He'd make rap more melodic than the contemporary orchestral music is.


----------



## LamaRose

Consona said:


> He'd make rap more melodic than the contemporary orchestral music is.



Exactly! That's why Beethoven would be bugging him so much.


----------



## Geocranium

Eptesicus said:


> You have conflated two entirely different things. Ie that for there to be big sections, it must sound like this.
> 
> I've also never said it is a "flop". I have said in this thread I will reserve judgement until I hear more demos, but based on this teaser alone (as that is all we gave), I dont like what I hear.



I'm going off of your "The thing is I don't think *anyone *wants an overly processed sound" comment from earlier. The overly processed sound that you describe is actually something that _millions _of people want and like. That's all I'm saying.

I'm not even conflating having big sections with this sound. I agree, this doesn't sound like a Mahler or Wagner or Berlioz piece with abnormally large section sizes. It's scooped and compressed to sound bigger, buzzier, and ballsier. 

I'm addressing comments about the library that say they're marketing it poorly with the teaser, or that no one wants or likes a library that sounds like that, or that they're shooting themselves in the foot by using "overly processed" samples. I think their marketing is actually pretty spot on for this.


----------



## Eptesicus

Geocranium said:


> I'm going off of your "The thing is I don't think *anyone *wants an overly processed sound" comment from earlier. The overly processed sound that you describe is actually something that _millions _of people want and like. That's all I'm saying.
> 
> I'm not even conflating having big sections with this sound. I agree, this doesn't sound like a Mahler or Wagner or Berlioz piece with abnormally large section sizes. It's scooped and compressed to sound bigger, buzzier, and ballsier.
> 
> I'm addressing comments about the library that say they're marketing it poorly with the teaser, or that no one wants or likes a library that sounds like that, or that they're shooting themselves in the foot by using "overly processed" samples. I think their marketing is actually pretty spot on for this.



Ok, well i disagree.

I don't think anyone (or perhaps to not be so absolute, very few) want this to end up being a synthy overly processed sounding brass library.

As you have seen on this thread, the majority opinion seems to be that we aren't too keen on the sound of that teaser.

Do we want a big and massive sound? Absolutely. Do i want to be able to faithfully recreate his awesome Dark Tower score for a bit of fun?  Absolutely. The realism still has be in there though.

I think that interpreting likes on social media platforms as meaning the composing community wants this library to just deliver a buzzy fake sounding wall of noise is also wrong.

If it is this post you are talking about:



You will find most of the comments are just by fans of Tom/Justice League etc. Very few are actually from people critiquing it in terms of it being a brass library (from a composers perspective)


----------



## Dominik

LamaRose said:


> Honestly, Beethoven would probably be writing an oscar-worthy soundtrack every week, and Mozart would be the richest rap writer/producer in the known Universe... even Beethoven would be begging him to write some rap for his next project.


They would all get poor because there are more than four chords in their music and therefore it is too complex for most of the music consumers.


----------



## purple

Yikes. I really hope that demo isn't representative of the final product. I want to believe that was a weirdly processed and mixed demo cue, but I thought the same of MSB and was disappointed when I got that too. OT has to me always seemed the best at getting a great sound out of their samples but this just isn't it. I will admit the articulations seemed quite strong to me, which I could benefit from as I find most libraries struggle with strong accents and staccato the most. Happy at least to hear you don't need to download _every mic position. _Still excited for this and the OT sample player though!


----------



## Eptesicus

purple said:


> I want to believe that was a weirdly processed and mixed demo cue



Me too!

On MSB, can i ask why you are disappointed with it?


----------



## Dominik

Eptesicus said:


> Ok, well i disagree.
> 
> I don't think anyone (or perhaps to not be so absolute, very few) want this to end up being a synthy overly processed sounding brass library.
> 
> As you have seen on this thread, the majority opinion seems to be that we aren't too keen on the sound of that teaser.
> 
> I think that to interprate epic music youtube videos that have many likes as meaning the composing community wants this library to just deliver a buzzy fake sounding wall of noise is also wrong.


I don´t know why some of you think this sounds processed. I am quite sure that he did not much processing on that trailer. Maybe you all really cranked up the volume like Tom wanted us to. But listened to at low level at my system sounds very clear and defined for me. I guess that he used only the big ensembles for that teaser and it is just often perceived like a "synthy" sound when the sections get very big. It goes without saying that a 12 player section is not meant for classical music because I don´t know of any piece using as much players. 4 to 8 is common practise. 

But I think we don´t need to discuss personal tastes. In the end it all comes down to our taste and you can´t convince others of your taste.

The teaser clearly doesn´t give away much. Just the biggest ensembles, the loudest dynamic layer, all sections playing at once at full power. I don´t think that this will be the thing making this library special. As some of you said, there are already others doing such stuff as well or better (well, but Teldex is really a great hall). But personally I am not interested in a library with only 12 horns and only the loudest layers. I want a library going from ppp to FFF and flexible section sizes and JXL Brass will probably give me that when it´s true what they claim and they didn´t mess it up. 

So, I am as well waiting for another example to judge the potential of this library better than with this not-much-revealing teaser.


----------



## purple

Eptesicus said:


> Me too!
> 
> On MSB, can i ask why you are disappointed with it?


It feels very inconsistent to me and I just found the sound didn't work or sound realistic at all to me. The instruments blend horribly and sound over-processed to me even with all the FX off. The dynamic range just isn't there like it is for other libraries, i.e. the pp is more like a mf and the ff is more like an f. The articulations are also just not there, especially at higher dynamic values, and the library is completely not "playable" even less playable than older libraries like HWB. It has so many bugs and performance issues too, constant freezing and slow loading, sometimes the UI doesn't load and you have to do it again.


----------



## Eptesicus

Dominik said:


> I guess that he used only the big ensembles for that teaser and it is just often perceived like a "synthy" sound when the sections get very big.



This isn't true though. Big sections doesnt mean it has to sound like that teaser or synthy.

Like you say though. I am keeping an open mind and hopefully they will release a proper demo soon that will blow all of our socks off!


----------



## purple

Dominik said:


> I don´t know why some of you think this sounds processed. I am quite sure that he did not much processing on that trailer. Maybe you all really cranked up the volume like Tom wanted us to. But listened to at low level at my system sounds very clear and defined for me. I guess that he used only the big ensembles for that teaser and it is just often perceived like a "synthy" sound when the sections get very big. It goes without saying that a 12 player section is not meant for classical music because I don´t know of any piece using as much players. 4 to 8 is common practise.
> 
> But I think we don´t need to discuss personal tastes. In the end it all comes down to our taste and you can´t convince others of your taste.
> 
> The teaser clearly doesn´t give away much. Just the biggest ensembles, the loudest dynamic layer, all sections playing at once at full power. I don´t think that this will be the thing making this library special. As some of you said, there are already others doing such stuff as well or better (well, but Teldex is really a great hall). But personally I am not interested in a library with only 12 horns and only the loudest layers. I want a library going from ppp to FFF and flexible section sizes and JXL Brass will probably give me that when it´s true what they claim and they didn´t mess it up.
> 
> So, I am as well waiting for another example to judge the potential of this library better than with this not-much-revealing teaser.


To me it sounds maybe not "processing" (aside from probably a bit of EQ in the high end to my ears) but as if they had all the knobs at 127 for the whole thing.


----------



## Drundfunk

Hope walkthroughs and demos will be released before Friday otherwise I think I might spend my money on other Black Friday stuff.


----------



## Eptesicus

Drundfunk said:


> Hope walkthroughs and demos will be released before Friday otherwise I think I might spend my money on other Black Friday stuff.



Me too.

They better hurry up or my money will be gone.

There is no way i'm buying it just based on that small teaser.


----------



## NoamL

Based on the fact that their trailer was last Monday and the release date is 3 Mondays from now, I expect we'll learn at least a little more today


----------



## pawelmorytko

I think episode 2 is out on their website, unless that was already out and I just haven't seen it yet


----------



## Eptesicus

pawelmorytko said:


> I think episode 2 is out on their website, unless that was already out and I just haven't seen it yet



That is new.

I want to hear the damn thing though, not listen to people talk about it.


----------



## 5Lives

Yeah, seems like a lot fluff - very little of the library. I get wanting to provide behind the scenes, but at least publish some demos to go with that.


----------



## MartinH.

Around 4:00 there's a couple seconds of horns and choir, I thought that sounds quite nice and not like angry bees at all.


----------



## pawelmorytko

MartinH. said:


> Around 4:00 there's a couple seconds of horns and choir, I thought that sounds quite nice and not like angry bees at all.


I enjoyed that as well, horns sounded great there!


----------



## NoamL

Darn. Watched the whole video and there's very little excerpts from the library. The horn part at 04:00 might be from the library (or not, who knows?) 

I hope this isn't like MSB where they release the library with all of two heavily dressed demos


----------



## pawelmorytko

NoamL said:


> Darn. Watched the whole video and there's very little excerpts from the library. The horn part at 04:00 might be from the library (or not, who knows?)
> 
> I hope this isn't like MSB where they release the library with all of two heavily dressed demos


Got to say, that Daniel Beijbom demo was great


----------



## Daniel James

brenneisen said:


> nooo! all yellow, just darker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes, you're right! the sky is blue and full of moving air also know as winds
> 
> (you have permission to use cyan if your keys got blue first)



You lads have got your colours all wrong. Here is my very accurate colour scheme.






-DJ


----------



## KEM

Eptesicus said:


> Me too.
> 
> They better hurry up or my money will be gone.
> 
> There is no way i'm buying it just based on that small teaser.



I did, in fact, I actually bought it before I even watched the teaser haha, I just really love Junkie...


----------



## Denkii

I am glad that for some weird reason I still have zero interest in this one.
Never thought I'd say something like that...ever...


----------



## Living Fossil

Denkii said:


> I am glad that for some weird reason I still have zero interest in this one.
> Never thought I'd say something like that...ever...



I'm in the same boat...
But Junkie XL doing orchestral libraries is kind of cool.
It's like the exact opposite of the "Herbert von Karajan Techno Tool Kit"


----------



## erica-grace

The rest of you see a new video? I don't  May I have a link please?


----------



## erica-grace

Hey BTW - what does *"Not licensed" *mean at the top of their instrument list?


----------



## MartinH.

erica-grace said:


> Hey BTW - what does *"Not licensed" *mean at the top of their instrument list?



Maybe once you're logged in and have bought parts of the library when they allow that, it will show a list of licensend instruments that you bought and the rest appear listed under "not licensed".


----------



## shawnsingh

erica-grace said:


> The rest of you see a new video? I don't  May I have a link please?



https://www.orchestraltools.com/store/collections/8 - have to scroll down and watch the video on the webpage itself. The first episode seemed like it got public on JXL's YouTube channel a day afterwards.


----------



## Jack Weaver

A little surprised that there are only 8 articulations per instrument. Even OT's current interface, the Capsule, typically had 12+. True, CSB only has a few articulations also...

Also surprised that there are no dynamics hairpin articulations and graphic interface that would allow for their timing with the tempo. There are these in Berlin Brass but they're not really timed well between sections which makes them so, so very time consuming to use as to make them pretty much useless. And of course, there is no time stretching with the tempo In BB. (It does seem like OT is a behind the times in their interface compared to a lot of things that have come out recently.) 

No double and triple tonguing?

Also, JXL touted early in 2019 that this library would be meant for every style from Hip Hop to Epic Cinematic. It'll be interesting to see if that is still the case.

Looking forward to see what the run-throughs bring us. If it really does sound significantly impressive it'll be a purchase despite these seeming shortcomings. 

.


----------



## Geocranium

I imagine things like hairpin crescendo/decrescendos, and double/triple tonguing aren't really necessary when you have crossfading dynamics and staccatos.


----------



## Jack Weaver

Geocranium said:


> I imagine things like hairpin crescendo/decrescendos, and double/triple tonguing aren't really necessary when you have crossfading dynamics and staccatos.


For a 'complete' brass library I would prefer these things. 

.


----------



## prodigalson

Guys! 

I think it is worth remembering that this library will allow you to buy each instrument, articulation and mic position individually. 

Want to know if this library is for you? Buy one single mic position of a legato for a single instrument and make your decision. 

No one will have to pay the full amount to get a real sense of if this library is for them


----------



## Raphioli

5Lives said:


> Yeah, seems like a lot fluff - very little of the library. I get wanting to provide behind the scenes, but at least publish some demos to go with that.



I really agree. The type of video that they're releasing is something nice before you start accepting preorders.
But when you start accepting preorders, they really should be focusing on providing videos of walkthroughs and not behind the scenes.

Unless, they're thinking of getting a bit more people to pre-order just by creating hype with these behind the scenes videos.


----------



## NoamL

prodigalson said:


> Guys!
> 
> I think it is worth remembering that this library will allow you to buy each instrument, articulation and mic position individually.
> 
> Want to know if this library is for you? Buy one single mic position of a legato for a single instrument and make your decision.
> 
> No one will have to pay the full amount to get a real sense of if this library is for them



Yup, started thinking that this afternoon as well.

It would make a lot of business sense for them to have a markup so that buying everything bit-by-bit ends up costing more (1.25x? 1.5x?) than just taking the plunge. Or they might be generous 

Still with all the unknowns... If they want my Black Friday piggybank please show me a walkthrough of some patches and the player working stably in VEPro, not a 10 minute interview of Tom Holkenborg


----------



## Drundfunk

prodigalson said:


> Guys!
> 
> I think it is worth remembering that this library will allow you to buy each instrument, articulation and mic position individually.
> 
> Want to know if this library is for you? Buy one single mic position of a legato for a single instrument and make your decision.
> 
> No one will have to pay the full amount to get a real sense of if this library is for them


That's how understood it at the beginning of the year as well. Now I'm not so sure if it's actually "downloading a la carte" and not "buying a la carte". But yeah, I need those walkthroughs and and demos because even on pre-order price it's 600 bucks after taxes. So it's still a lot of money.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Drundfunk said:


> That's how understood it at the beginning of the year as well. Now I'm not so sure if it's actually "downloading a la carte" and not "buying a la carte".


I'm not 100 percent certain of this, but I think the a la cart system breaks down by instrument and not mic position or articulation. You can choose what mics to download, but you still have to pay for the full instrument.


----------



## Drundfunk

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I'm not 100 percent certain of this, but I think the a la cart system breaks down by instrument and not mic position or articulation. You can choose what mics to download, but you still have to pay for the full instrument.


That's exactly the impression I got especially considering how it is advertised on the JXL Brass site. You have to buy the full product but you can download from that product whatever you need


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Drundfunk said:


> That's exactly the impression I got especially considering how it is advertised on the JXL Brass site. You have to buy the full product but you can download from that product whatever you need


oh......... yay?


----------



## shawnsingh

My understanding was:
- eventually would be possible to buy each instrument separately (this would explain why each instrument has a "not licensed" label on it)
- will be possible to download each mic position of each instrument separately in the SINE player

Was there some clue I missed that they were hinting it would be possible to purchase individual articulations and mic positions? I did not catch any hint like that from their NAMM event.


----------



## Eptesicus

Raphioli said:


> I really agree. The type of video that they're releasing is something nice before you start accepting preorders.
> But when you start accepting preorders, they really should be focusing on providing videos of walkthroughs and not behind the scenes.
> 
> Unless, they're thinking of getting a bit more people to pre-order just by creating hype with these behind the scenes videos.



Indeed.

This is the sort of thing i may be interested after buying it.

I don't really like the marketing direction here. Surely the most important thing to have available to customers when you open a pre-order is some sort of demonstration as to how it sounds (demos/walk-throughs).

I am sure those things will come, but i sort of don't like the arrogance of presuming people will pre-order a it just based on the hype/a big name composer.

I guess that is just the world we live in though.

Or i'm just still bitter about Synchron Strings (although that did at least have one or two demos from the off as i seem to remember..)


----------



## Chungus

Eptesicus said:


> but i sort of don't like the arrogance of presuming people will pre-order a it just based on the hype/a big name composer.


While I'm pretty much with you, let's be honest here. This is absolutely something that happens.


----------



## Eptesicus

Chungus said:


> While I'm pretty much with you, let's be honest here. This is absolutely something that happens.



Oh absolutely. Even i am tempted, but from experience, i will definitely not be taken in by any of the manufacturer's marketing hype anymore, and will wait for more demos and thorough walkthroughs.


----------



## jononotbono

Are there still no walkthroughs or demos? Man, I can’t drop that kind of money on a pre-order with nothing than the teaser. Saying that out loud... feels very grown up. Fuck.


----------



## Peter Satera

I agree. As much as I'd love to jump aboard the hype train, there's far too many uncertainties. The Walkthrough and Demos are a must, but quite significantly this is on another engine which we've yet to see is fully operational. If we all had our hands on layers which was proposed before then I might not be so apprehensive on this delivery.


----------



## 5Lives

For all the complaints about Spitfire's marketing, at least they consistently deliver thorough walkthroughs and demos, right up front. I'm surprised OT is taking such a drawn out approach when they should know that budgets are being exhausted during this Black Friday week for many potential customers.


----------



## bvaughn0402

That is true! I LOVE OT stuff but yeah ... don’t really like how they launch their products with such little details during prelaunch.


----------



## jamwerks

Jack Weaver said:


> A little surprised that there are only 8 articulations per instrument...
> 
> No double and triple tonguing?
> 
> Also, JXL touted early in 2019 that this library would be meant for every style from Hip Hop to Epic Cinematic. It'll be interesting to see if that is still the case....


I'm thinking that they couldn't fit it all into one library at a price enough people would pay. This has the meat and potatoes, kind of a CineBrass on steroids.

I see room for 3 X-tensions to this library (XXL, XXXL, & XXXXL) 

- more arts
- more instruments (Horn solo 2, Horns a2, Bass Trb, Ctr B Tbn, Solo Cimbasso, etc.)
- mutes

I really appreciate this "going all out" approach. It's not economically feasible for most devs in most cases, so hopefully they will be rewarded by us (buyers) for their passion!


----------



## Drundfunk

5Lives said:


> For all the complaints about Spitfire's marketing, at least they consistently deliver thorough walkthroughs and demos, right up front. I'm surprised OT is taking such a drawn out approach when they should know that budgets are being exhausted during this Black Friday week for many potential customers.


Well it just evokes the feeling that this isn't even close as to being ready as it should be. They had to announce something because of Black Friday, but the silence since then (also on this forum) doesn't really strenghten my trust in the product (especially considering that I don't really like the sound of the teaser). We'll see.


----------



## Peter Satera

Here's me saying we havent seen the sample player yet..an hour later..

Taken from this post:




__





Orchestral Tools: Junkie XL Brass—new update for solo horn and horn sections available


690 gigas!... Ok you can if you want not all dowloading but 690 gigs!! So after the pre order period it's 749 eur + VAT + an 1To SSD. Very pricy! So Waiting for demos.




vi-control.net


----------



## Zee

First Walkthrough


----------



## Benjamin Duk

Zee said:


> First Walkthrough




This sounds so good!


----------



## Zee

It does, it can get very dirty and still do triumphant this is nothing like the demo so far


----------



## Benjamin Duk

Zee said:


> It does, it can get very dirty and still do triumphant this is nothing like the demo so far



As well as very soft sustains, which is really versatile.


----------



## davidson

I'm too lazy to read through the whole thread, so can anyone tell me whether we still have to manually keyswitch between shorts, longs etc, or have OT managed to finally create a playable library?


----------



## Brasart

Sounds very good!
But I have to say I think the plugin interface looks very placeholder-like, I'm sure usability will be great but I think it looks pretty... amateurish? It's kinda weird


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

Sounds great! I concur with others that the mixer interface is a little bit unclear


----------



## Eptesicus

GuitarG said:


> Sounds great! I concur with others that the mixer interface is a little bit unclear



Agreed. It makes my head hurt.


----------



## Brasart

GuitarG said:


> Sounds great! I concur with others that the mixer interface is a little bit unclear



Yeah, spacing is very inconsistent and all over the place.
At some places it's almost barebones like in the bottom right corner, I think it tries being minimalistic but it's also incredibly busy and without any clear-cut stylistic direction


----------



## N.Caffrey

what a gorgeous tone!!


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

The tone looks absolutely amazing.
I do agree about the interface of the SINE Player beeing a bit unclear and "not especially beautiful" so far. This is weird because I always thought CAPSULE had a super elegant design.


----------



## Eptesicus

I think i like most of it apart from the trumpets. The trumpets at 9.48-.49. What is going on there!? I hope that doesn't make it into the final release.

Still not 100% convinced but i'm likiing what i hear in the latest video far more than the initial teaser.


----------



## Raphioli

I'm impressed so much at how the instruments sound, SINE players GUI won't be any issue for me.
(Unless it has performance issues or bugs of course)

Now I just need to listen to the legatos, because thats hard to get it just right.
So far, I'm mind blown.



Eptesicus said:


> I think i like most of it apart from the trumpets. The trumpets at 9.48-.49. What is going on there!? I hope that doesn't make it into the final release.


Are you talking about the stereo image/panning of the trumpets?
I've noticed a similar thing with the solo trumpets which starts from 3:45.

I really hope they fix it, because other than that, this library is perfect as long as the legatos sound great.
I don't know how many times I'm rewatching the walkthrough lol


----------



## Eptesicus

Raphioli said:


> I'm impressed so much at how the instruments sound, SINE players GUI won't be any issue for me.
> (Unless it has performance issues or bugs of course)
> 
> Now I just need to listen to the legatos, because thats hard to get it just right.
> So far, I'm mind blown.
> 
> 
> Are you talking about the stereo image/panning of the trumpets?
> I've noticed a similar thing with the solo trumpets which starts from 3:45.
> 
> I really hope they fix it, because other than that, this library is perfect as long as the legatos sound great.
> I don't know how many times I'm rewatching the walkthrough lol



The imaging, and the note at that point. It goes all weird and thin.


----------



## Consona

The tone is fantastic. There are some phase/stereo issues but let's hope they'll iron those out.


----------



## jononotbono

Holy shit. Loving this!


----------



## shawnsingh

Eptesicus said:


> The imaging, and the note at that point. It goes all weird and thin.



Just FYI for others interested in discussion about this, I had thoughts on the other thread - https://vi-control.net/community/th...ine-player-episode-4-added.78948/post-4475100

plenty of room for anyone else's opinions, too. cheers!


----------



## Eptesicus

shawnsingh said:


> Just FYI for others interested in discussion about this, I had thoughts on the other thread - https://vi-control.net/community/th...ine-player-episode-4-added.78948/post-4475100
> 
> plenty of room for anyone else's opinions, too. cheers!



Respectfully, I disagree. Something is off/not right with a few of those trumpet notes.


----------



## gussunkri

This is very impressive!


----------



## Raphioli

shawnsingh said:


> Just FYI for others interested in discussion about this, I had thoughts on the other thread - https://vi-control.net/community/th...ine-player-episode-4-added.78948/post-4475100
> 
> plenty of room for anyone else's opinions, too. cheers!



Thanks for sharing. Discussion about this library is too spread apart its hard to keep up xD
As for your opinions, I'm not science wiz of reflections, but I still do wish they fix that.
I think theres a plugin that fixes stereo imaging, but you don't want the users to do that though
or you'll process every note, so they need to fix that specific sample.
I'm sure SINE player won't allow the user to edit individual samples.

BTW, you can listen to a similar thing happening with the solo horns,
which OT uploaded a few days ago.




__





Orchestral Tools: Junkie XL Brass—new update for solo horn and horn sections available


With more than 15 developers working for over 3 years, we are so proud to finally introduce our new player: SINE. Since the first prototype was built, we've been so excited by all the advancements we’ve made. The release of our SINE player only marks the beginning of all the innovations to...




vi-control.net


----------



## Drumdude2112

Sounds just a tad better then that first quick demo we heard couple weeks back lol ...
Superb...I must have .


----------



## Zee

Consona said:


> The tone is fantastic. There are some phase/stereo issues but let's hope they'll iron those ou


i thought so too but i went back and rewatched it and it's actually two and three parts with the same instrument and different articulations


----------



## JEPA

hands down!!


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Brasart said:


> Sounds very good!
> But I have to say I think the plugin interface looks very placeholder-like, I'm sure usability will be great but I think it looks pretty... amateurish? It's kinda weird



Yeah, my thoughts as well. And although it sounds great, I personally think it's overpriced...especially since I'd be shelling out nearly $750 CDN at the intro price (plus another SSD to hold the huge footprint). I dunno...


----------



## Thundercat

Consona said:


> Yea, out of those two, it would probably be Mozart who would use synthesizers.


Wait, I saw Beethoven using a synthesizer in Bill & Ted's Big Adventure, years ago! That documentary taught me a lot about Beethoven.


----------



## Mike Fox

Thundercat said:


> Wait, I saw Beethoven using a synthesizer in Bill & Ted's Big Adventure, years ago! That documentary taught me a lot about Beethoven.


To this day, it's one of the best documentaries I've seen. It taught me to be excellent to each other!

It also taught me that you could go to hell if you steal your little brother's Easter basket.


----------



## kelexys

Sounds great


----------



## Eptesicus

kelexys said:


> Sounds great




Dam you i thought there was a new walk through. Not the same one posted days ago


----------



## Benjamin Duk

I wish they would post more videos. Only 6 more days left :(


----------



## newman

This is a walkthrough video by Daniel James



Disappointed to see the site banning people. . .


----------



## Benjamin Duk

newman said:


> This is a walkthrough video by Daniel James
> 
> 
> 
> Disappointed to see the site banning people. . .




Oh yeah saw this. Very cool.

Yeah lame that he got banned for having a different opinion. I guess we must all think the same now.


----------



## Guffy

Benjamin Duk said:


> Yeah lame that he got banned for having a different opinion. I guess we must all think the same now.


Where are you getting that from? He got temporary ban for something completely different. 
And please let's not turn this thread into another drama zone..


----------



## 5Lives

No demo tracks yet? One walkthrough video that didn’t dive deep into articulations (is there double / triple tonguing somehow? Is it adaptive legato?). Wish they had followed the approach of other devs and extended the preorder price past the release so initial reviews and SINE player evaluations could be out there first.


----------



## Zero&One

5Lives said:


> No demo tracks yet? One walkthrough video that didn’t dive deep into articulations (is there double / triple tonguing somehow? Is it adaptive legato?). Wish they had followed the approach of other devs and extended the preorder price past the release so initial reviews and SINE player evaluations could be out there first.



The site now seems to list them, didn't last time I checked. I can see:

Sustains
Sustains Soft
Sforzando Sustains
Marcato Long
Marcato Short
Staccato
Staccatissimo
Rips
Playable Runs
Legato


----------



## Dr.Quest

Benjamin Duk said:


> Oh yeah saw this. Very cool.
> 
> Yeah lame that he got banned for having a different opinion. I guess we must all think the same now.


Opinion about what? Last time I was here he was posting. When was he banned?


----------



## 5Lives

James H said:


> The site now seems to list them, didn't last time I checked. I can see:
> 
> Sustains
> Sustains Soft
> Sforzando Sustains
> Marcato Long
> Marcato Short
> Staccato
> Staccatissimo
> Rips
> Playable Runs
> Legato



Yes saw those but would be nice to see a walkthrough of them as well and what the scripting can do.


----------



## Zero&One

5Lives said:


> Yes saw those but would be nice to see a walkthrough of them as well and what the scripting can do.



Yep, maybe more to come? I agree, it's a shame the intro offer isn't at least 5 days after release, seems all or nothing. I'll not be buying this round, but really interested to hear what comes out from this.


----------



## MartinH.

newman said:


> Disappointed to see the site banning people. . .





5Lives said:


> Yes saw those but would be nice to see a walkthrough of them as well and what the scripting can do.



He's not "banned". He just got a little time out for repeatedly doing the opposite of what the forum owner asked him to do. He'll be back soon I'm sure. 

I'm hoping @OrchestralTools will provide a review copy for JXL brass to Daniel James, his walkthroughs have been very helpful for my purchasing decisions in the past. Same goes for those by @Cory Pelizzari, I hope he'll get a review copy as well. 

I must say what I've heard of the library in Daniels video sounded a _lot _better than the initial teaser. I'm conflicted whether that makes the initial teaser a brilliant or dumb marketing move. It's underpromise-overdeliver in some way, but a bad first impression in another. Anyway, I'm glad to hear the library shows a _lot _more promise than that initial trailer made me expect.


----------



## Raphioli

5Lives said:


> Yes saw those but would be nice to see a walkthrough of them as well and what the scripting can do.



Yeah, I'm still waiting for an in-depth legato video.
The walkthrough which they uploaded gave a nice impression of the shorts, but only could hear legato here and there.

I really hope they release another walkthrough within like a day or two.


----------



## germancomponist

newman said:


> This is a walkthrough video by Daniel James
> 
> 
> 
> Disappointed to see the site banning people. . .



I do not like this competition thinking! This JXL library sounds so good in my ears. Of course, there are criticisms here and there, as with any other library, but why should we focus on that? Why not focus our ears on the good? This library costs just 499.- Euro! A single session with a trumpeter, say for two hours, costs just as much! I have bought a lot of libraries and use what I like best. Some libs I bought only because only one instrument sounded so good to my ears. The workflow goes past my ass, if a library sounds good. I do not care if a library is a Kontakt library or not. Only the sound counts! Many people have no idea what it used to cost, if you had to book musicians to make your own recordings in your studio.

How is it that so many people today are so negatively charged and their attention is focused only on negative? I think it's up to the mass media to tell us only negatives. You set our mirror neurons in motion?

I can hear that Alan Meyerson did a great job here, as he did on all projects where I have listened to his work. Very great to have him included in a sample library.


----------



## 5Lives

James H said:


> Yep, maybe more to come? I agree, it's a shame the intro offer isn't at least 5 days after release, seems all or nothing. I'll not be buying this round, but really interested to hear what comes out from this.



Indeed - let’s see what they drop in the next couple of days. Still a bad look to not give customers a chance to hear reviews before killing the launch pricing. Conspiracy theorists that pollute other threads may begin to wonder if OT has something to hide by not being more forthcoming about the product and flexible about their launch price. Let’s hope it is better than MSB which to this day only has 2 demo tracks posted.


----------



## newman

5Lives said:


> Still a bad look to not give customers a chance to hear reviews before killing the launch pricing.


Why play this game? Just wait for comprehensive reviews and 2020 holiday sales.


----------



## Eptesicus

5Lives said:


> Indeed - let’s see what they drop in the next couple of days. Still a bad look to not give customers a chance to hear reviews before killing the launch pricing. Conspiracy theorists that pollute other threads may begin to wonder if OT has something to hide by not being more forthcoming about the product and flexible about their launch price. Let’s hope it is better than MSB which to this day only has 2 demo tracks posted.



yeh that two track thing is weird.

I emailed them asking if they would post more demos back in April/May and they told me there would be more.....

Yet still to this day there are only two. I was waiting for a more "naked" brass demo which really highlighted the brass but no.....

I know they have extensive walkthroughs, but how it all comes together in a piece of music and as an ensemble is the most important thing.


----------



## 5Lives

newman said:


> Why play this game? Just wait for comprehensive reviews and 2020 holiday sales.



OT doesn’t have sales as frequently as other developers it seems. This appears to be the best price for JXL for some time since they haven’t provided any more insight into Holiday sales.


----------



## jononotbono

Can I just pay for it now and get it now?


----------



## KEM

jononotbono said:


> Can I just pay for it now and get it now?



I agree with this statement.


----------



## Dr.Quest

germancomponist said:


> I do not like this competition thinking! This JXL library sounds so good in my ears. Of course, there are criticisms here and there, as with any other library, but why should we focus on that? Why not focus our ears on the good? This library costs just 499.- Euro! A single session with a trumpeter, say for two hours, costs just as much! I have bought a lot of libraries and use what I like best. Some libs I bought only because only one instrument sounded so good to my ears. The workflow goes past my ass, if a library sounds good. I do not care if a library is a Kontakt library or not. Only the sound counts! Many people have no idea what it used to cost, if you had to book musicians to make your own recordings in your studio.
> 
> How is it that so many people today are so negatively charged and their attention is focused only on negative? I think it's up to the mass media to tell us only negatives. You set our mirror neurons in motion?
> 
> I can hear that Alan Meyerson did a great job here, as he did on all projects where I have listened to his work. Very great to have him included in a sample library.


Always nice to hear a voice of reason outside the noise. The library does sound good.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Jack Weaver said:


> For a 'complete' brass library I would prefer these things.
> 
> .


Sorry jack, but the crossfades sound so good in the video that you can just program these hairpins. That's literally the reason I outright pre-ordered when I saw the crossfades in the first example XD

Bonus points was there was some really fast tonguing in the trumpets and it had no issues. As someone who much prefers programming my own patterns both rhythmically and dynamically - if the staccatissimo can perform well - it's awesome. I talked about it in another thread referencing berlin brass

I had made a short little phrase doing the things that multitongue patches don't do well - which is for instance, gallop type patterns, especially when you can decide which notes have the accent. Also crescendos with multitongue patches have always been dodgy as well(because it crossfades during notes)

It's far easer for me to step enter the patterns with my keyboard - and it sounds good faster or slower, something repeatedly time stretching doesn't handle well.


----------



## germancomponist

Dr.Quest said:


> Always nice to hear a voice of reason outside the noise. The library does sound good.


Yeah, I somtimes use my old Miroslav Vitous brass instruments, because they sound good ..... . It is always only the sound of a library ..... .


----------



## Mike Fox

Would love to have seen more fx aside from just rips. Maybe we'll see that in expansions?


----------



## Thundercat

newman said:


> Why play this game? Just wait for comprehensive reviews and 2020 holiday sales.


From what I understand, OT pretty much never has sales. Supposedly there was an once in a lifetime sale last year but they normally don't so...the intro pricing is usually the best you can get.

Incidentally I just pulled the trigger. Got al 0% card for 15 months so I'm not too bothered about the price.

Mike


----------



## staypuft

Eptesicus said:


> yeh that two track thing is weird.
> 
> I emailed them asking if they would post more demos back in April/May and they told me there would be more.....
> 
> Yet still to this day there are only two. I was waiting for a more "naked" brass demo which really highlighted the brass but no.....
> 
> I know they have extensive walkthroughs, but how it all comes together in a piece of music and as an ensemble is the most important thing.



MSB......that one looked great on paper. Took me no more than 5 minutes to know that it would collect dust on my drive. The tone is dreadful, plain and simple. I can do a solid mockup with any library as long as the samples are well recorded. Not MSB. The room they picked is awful for brass. Samples sound bland and synthetic. Unfortunately the weird room is baked in the close mics, there´s not much left to do unless they rerecord everything somewhere else. Convolution won´t cut...

edited// was trying to help but nevermind


----------



## Jdiggity1

staypuft said:


> It feels REAL under the fingers.



Wait... what???


----------



## ProfoundSilence

staypuft said:


> MSB......that one looked great on paper. Took me no more than 5 minutes to know that it would collect dust on my drive. The tone is dreadful, plain and simple. I can do a solid mockup with any library as long as the samples are well recorded. Not MSB. The room they picked is awful for brass. Samples sound bland and synthetic. Unfortunately the weird room is baked in the close mics, there´s not much left to do unless they rerecord everything somewhere else. Convolution won´t cut...
> 
> I´ll say it again: I´m a brass junkie //no pun intended/ and JXLB is the best brass library to date. It feels REAL under the fingers. Sounds bloody fantastic. The cimbassi and horns are my favorite!





Jdiggity1 said:


> Wait... what???


wonder if they have super secret beta versions


----------



## Benjamin Duk

James H said:


> Yep, maybe more to come? I agree, it's a shame the intro offer isn't at least 5 days after release, seems all or nothing. I'll not be buying this round, but really interested to hear what comes out from this.



Well the great thing about the A La Carte is that you can just buy 1 instrument to test, but I do agree with you that I wish they had more demos and also extend the intro offer.


----------



## AdamKmusic

Benjamin Duk said:


> Well the great thing about the A La Carte is that you can just buy 1 instrument to test, but I do agree with you that I wish they had more demos and also extend the intro offer.



It's download A La Carte not buy A La Carte isn't it?


----------



## Benjamin Duk

AdamKmusic said:


> It's download A La Carte not buy A La Carte isn't it?



Hmmm good point. I do recall a while back them saying you will be able to just purchase and download what you want for their libraries but maybe it's different for this one.


----------



## Zero&One

ProfoundSilence said:


> wonder if they have super secret beta versions



To feel that real it has to be RC1.284 REV3. The REV2 version lacked dynamics


----------



## Dominik

I read through half the thread and once and again people are complaining about the price.
I can not follow that. What do we want of a library? To be cheap?
As someone who earns his living with making music I want from a library that I can use it preferably for a lifetime. I have bought so many stuff which became obsolete at some point because I replaced it with something better. Better recordings, more articulations, more round robins, more dynamic layers. 
Think about all the money I could have saved if I bought one expensive library at the beginning which covers all my needs. 
So, my oppinion is that the library is even too cheap. I would prefer to pay more and e.g have all the players separately like in Berlin Brass and more articulations also like in Berlin Brass. But I am quite content - so far - about what we seem to get for the price. !14 different instrument combinations, deep sampled like in Berlin Brass. As a owner of Berlin Brass I can complain about many things but not about the price because the detail in there is much higher than in other brass libraries. 

I disagree with some saying you don´t need live played crescendo when there are well programmed dynamic layers. This may actually be true in theory but I don´t know any library were this is the case and JXL Brass is no exception here. I could clearly hear the different layers crossfading in the Walkthrough. May be better than most but you can hear it. It is not totally smooth.

For me, this (vel-x-fading) is one of the measure points in evaluating a library. The Walkthrough was a little disappointing for me. It doesn´t reveal much. Just playing around chaoticly. I wish Paul Thompson would make one for OT


----------



## Adam Takacs

AdamKmusic said:


> It's download A La Carte not buy A La Carte isn't it?


You can buy single instruments from any SINE libraries, but not microphone position. So you can buy Horns a4 from JXL Brass with all the microphone position, but you don't need to download all the mics, if you only need the trees for example.


----------



## Zero&One

tadam said:


> You can buy single instruments from any SINE libraries, but not microphone position. So you can buy Horns a4 from JXL Brass with all the microphone position, but you don't need to download all the mics, if you only need the trees for example.



Have they confirmed this for JXL? Would be nice.

The video for single instruments says "single instruments are available for many OT's collections". The _many_ part sounds like some aren't.


----------



## Adam Takacs

James H said:


> Have they confirmed this for JXL? Would be nice.
> 
> The video for single instruments says "single instruments are available for many OT's collections". The _many_ part sounds like some aren't.



As I know this option will be available for all SINE collection, but we will see soon.


----------



## Peter Satera

There seems to be some some uncertainty regarding availability of JXLbrass library, purchasable on a per-instrument basis. @OrchestralTools could you drop in here, specifically regarding JXL Brass? Even to let us know if the information has been released at this point.


----------



## Eptesicus

Dominik said:


> As someone who earns his living with making music I want from a library that I can use it preferably for a lifetime. I have bought so many stuff which became obsolete at some point because I replaced it with something better. Better recordings, more articulations, more round robins, more dynamic layers.
> Think about all the money I could have saved if I bought one expensive library at the beginning which covers all my needs.




This is a good point and something that i have wrestled with as well. However, is JXL Brass that library though(the one you can buy to replace all others)? I'm not so sure.

It does sound good in the walkthrough, but it didn't blow me away. It still had some dodgy bits and there have been moments that worry me, like the initial teaser, and the solo horn example they posted. I'm not saying the solo horn sounded bad, but it sounded like more of the same. There was nothing about it that made me stand up and take notice. It could have been any modern brass library.

Personally, after listening to Century Brass' demos and walkthroughs, and the fact that it is currently $223 (with their 10% code) including a free copy of their century harps, i have gone for that...

Whether that was a mistake and a waste of money or not, time will tell, but Century is three times cheaper (with free harps too ), has more solo instruments, more articulations, mutes etc and in all honestly sounds just as good comparing walkthrough to walkthrough (in my opinion).

I would be distraught if i committed a lot of money (to me anyway) to this library, and it turned out that the legato is average/bumpy, the sine player needs lots of work/bug fixes and it is just as difficult as other libraries to get a realistic performance out of. Maybe i'm still bruised by Synchron Strings. A lot of hype. Loads of excitement about 8 dynamic layers etc....and then it was an absolute failure. I'm sure this won't be that bad but it is still a concern!

I am still keen to find out how this turns out, and if it ever goes on sale in the future i may well get it.


----------



## Benjamin Duk

Looks like you will be able to purchase single instruments.


----------



## Raphioli

Eptesicus said:


> This is a good point and something that i have wrestled with as well. However, is JXL Brass that library though(the one you can buy to replace all others)? I'm not so sure.
> 
> It does sound good in the walkthrough, but it didn't blow me away. It still had some dodgy bits and there have been moments that worry me, like the initial teaser, and the solo horn example they posted. I'm not saying the solo horn sounded bad, but it sounded like more of the same. There was nothing about it that made me stand up and take notice. It could have been any modern brass library.
> 
> Personally, after listening to Century Brass' demos and walkthroughs, and the fact that it is currently $223 (with their 10% code) including a free copy of their century harps, i have gone for that...
> 
> Whether that was a mistake and a waste of money or not, time will tell, but Century is three times cheaper (with free harps too ), has more solo instruments, more articulations, mutes etc and in all honestly sounds just as good comparing walkthrough to walkthrough (in my opinion).
> 
> I would be distraught if i committed a lot of money (to me anyway) to this library, and it turned out that the legato is average/bumpy, the sine player needs lots of work/bug fixes and it is just as difficult as other libraries to get a realistic performance out of. Maybe i'm still bruised by Synchron Strings. A lot of hype. Loads of excitement about 8 dynamic layers etc....and then it was an absolute failure. I'm sure this won't be that bad but it is still a concern!
> 
> I am still keen to find out how this turns out, and if it ever goes on sale in the future i may well get it.



Did 8dio mention anything about the release triggers for the shorts?
Because the last time I heard, you couldn't play a marcato with a specified length/duration.
So even if you release the key, it just keeps playing the sample until it ends.
Thats what I've read. And I don't see anything mentioned in the 2.0 update video.
If that isn't an issue for you, I think Century Brass is also a great library


----------



## Eptesicus

Raphioli said:


> Did 8dio mention anything about the release triggers for the shorts?
> Because the last time I heard, you couldn't play a marcato with a specified length/duration.
> So even if you release the key, it just keeps playing the sample until it ends.
> Thats what I've read. And I don't see anything mentioned in the 2.0 update video.
> If that isn't an issue for you, I think Century Brass is also a great library



I think this will be addressed in the 2.0 update:

*"The other addition I've been working on are release trigger versions of Arcs and Marcatos. The speed knob versions are still there (again, just for my fellow obsessive nerds), but the release triggers versions sound great and are more playable." *




Colin O'Malley said:


> Guys,
> 
> Here is an update on the progress of Century Brass 2.0 (and Strings!!!!!). I've just finished two new mixes, placing all of the instruments in traditional orchestral seating positions. The first new mix is a tight, punchy, Alan Sylvestri type of sound. The second is a more spacious Abbey Road mix. I imagine most Century users will end up using one of these new mixes, but the individual mics are still included for my fellow obsessive nerds....Separate patches for each mix/mic are included to address issues with loading times on some systems. We've had some users creating individual patches themselves, and I don't want them to have to do that in 2.0.
> 
> *The other addition I've been working on are release trigger versions of Arcs and Marcatos. The speed knob versions are still there (again, just for my fellow obsessive nerds), but the release triggers versions sound great and are more playable. *
> 
> I'm also working on new mixes for Century Strings and Century Strings Sordino. Both Century Brass and Strings will have the same 2.0 updates. Current Century users can attest, the libraries are quite LARGE. Re-mixing and programming takes a long time. The brass is essentially 9 different libraries in and of itself, each requiring a different mix approach etc. #FUN!!! Century Brass 2.0 will be released first, followed by strings 2.0. I'll announce date as we get closer.
> 
> My *ONLY* work with 8Dio currently is this 2.0 update. I'm not producing any new libraries until this is complete. Please be assured that we will get the updates out as soon as we possibly can. The libraries are just over 1 year old, and 2.0 (so far) is making a big difference! I think our users will be happy.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Colin


----------



## Raphioli

Eptesicus said:


> I think this will be addressed in the 2.0 update:
> 
> *"The other addition I've been working on are release trigger versions of Arcs and Marcatos. The speed knob versions are still there (again, just for my fellow obsessive nerds), but the release triggers versions sound great and are more playable." *



Thats pretty good news.
And kudos to them updating and refining the library over the years.
Cinesamples also does something similar.
Because some devs just leave bugs there without fixing them and keep on releasing new libraries, unfortunately.


----------



## Eptesicus

Raphioli said:


> Thats pretty good news.
> And kudos to them updating and refining the library over the years.
> Cinesamples also does something similar.
> Because some devs just leave bugs there without fixing them and keep on releasing new libraries, unfortunately.



Yes it sounds like it will be a comprehensive update, especially with multiple new mic mixes and poly legato as well.


----------



## Raphioli

Dominik said:


> As someone who earns his living with making music I want from a library that I can use it preferably for a lifetime. I have bought so many stuff which became obsolete at some point because I replaced it with something better. Better recordings, more articulations, more round robins, more dynamic layers.
> Think about all the money I could have saved if I bought one expensive library at the beginning which covers all my needs.


Sampling is something thats still evolving. I personally think its scaling with how PCs are evolving, because for example, the more dynamic layers, RRs, etc, the more RAM you need and probably becomes more CPU intense, which means you need more CPU power.
So I don't think we are anywhere at the point where 1 ultimate library will be enough for a lifetime.

And IMHO,


Dominik said:


> I have bought so many stuff which became obsolete at some point because I replaced it with something better.


saying the above is saying something like "I built so many PCs, but they get replaced with better CPUs/GPUs/motherboards".
Even if you buy a 2019 Mac Pro which is extremely expensive, it won't be top of the line for a lifetime.
Same goes with samples. The amount of dynamics, RRs, all that also relies on PC specs and also dev cost. If you want to make profit, you need to set a budget and pricing of the final product. (which will limit how much dynamic layers, RRs, articulations they're able to record)

Even Hans Zimmer keeps on updating his current library which I've read has enormous amount of dynamic layers and RRs.
If you really want an ultimate library which serves you for a lifetime, the only way is probably to go bespoke and buy a room full of servers to run it.

I hope I'm making sense, because English isn't my primary language.

BTW, I agree that there should be a more detailed walkthrough of JXL Brass showing how smooth crossfading is for the various section. We got a glimpse of it in the first walkthrough, but would want a detailed one, so that I can see if it comes close to a real swells/arcs/waves.
And of course the legatos.
I mean, they mention "Dynamic crossfading is exceptionally smooth and industry leading" under the Highlights, so it won't even hurt to have a walkthrough specifically showing off the smooth crossfade.


----------



## Thundercat

James H said:


> Have they confirmed this for JXL? Would be nice.
> 
> The video for single instruments says "single instruments are available for many OT's collections". The _many_ part sounds like some aren't.


Can you imagine the technical difficulty in retooling all of their existing libraries for something like this? I would imagine it’s a huge undertaking and likely going to proceed slowly on all but the most important libraries. Or ones they’ve been planning this for...

Mike


----------



## 5Lives

8Dio's Century Brass walkthroughs are how it should be done IMO - they're very detailed and informative. No fluff. Hopefully OT puts out some more like that before next week.

Century Brass at the current sales price does make an interesting choice vs. JXL - given tone is subjective, do you want more mic positions (JXL) or articulations (Century)? The argument could be made that articulations contribute more to the usability and believability of a library, but mic positions can bring more tonal variety (though can be approximated somewhat with reverbs and mixing).

Century Brass - $248
7 solo instruments, 6 ensembles
3 mic positions (close, tree, wide) + mixed
HUGE amount of articulations per instruments (27 just for the solo horn including mutes) plus vibrato and speed controls

JXL - $550
4 solo instruments, 10 ensembles
16 mic positions
10 articulations


----------



## Zero&One

Thundercat said:


> Can you imagine the technical difficulty in retooling all of their existing libraries for something like this? I would imagine it’s a huge undertaking and likely going to proceed slowly on all but the most important libraries. Or ones they’ve been planning this for...
> 
> Mike



They've done it for most libs, it's on the video. The question we are asking ... are they releasing JXL in chunks? OT are not replying to this question.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Switching articulations is one thing.
Merging, stacking and crossfading them is another!
Episode 5 of our SINE video series dives into Polymaps, so you can see for yourself the possibilities SINE opens up.




We’ve been reading all your comments here and on Facebook and YouTube so will try to answer some here.
But also don’t forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel and be the first to watch the next/penultimate episode of our SINE series.
Just to answer some of your questions:

Single Instruments will be available really soon, but not with the release of Junkie XL Brass on the 16th Dec.
You can install SINE on 3 different machines!
Other OT libraries will be added to SINE over the next few months. We’ll let you know as soon as they’re available. SINE is really going to transform what you can do with those libraries. 
Junkie XL Brass comes with Download a-la-carte, and when we add our other libraries to SINE this will then be available with them too.

Also more walkthroughs of Junkie XL Brass are coming very soon as we also bring our SINE video series to an end 

Thanks so much for your comments guys, if you have any questions please comment we are working on something to answer all your questions so keep ‘em coming!!

Thanks,

The OT Team

http://www.getsine.com/ (www.getsine.com)


----------



## KEM

OrchestralTools said:


> Switching articulations is one thing.
> Merging, stacking and crossfading them is another!
> Episode 5 of our SINE video series dives into Polymaps, so you can see for yourself the possibilities SINE opens up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We’ve been reading all your comments here and on Facebook and YouTube so will try to answer some here.
> But also don’t forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel and be the first to watch the next/penultimate episode of our SINE series.
> Just to answer some of your questions:
> 
> Single Instruments will be available really soon, but not with the release of Junkie XL Brass on the 16th Dec.
> You can install SINE on 3 different machines!
> Other OT libraries will be added to SINE over the next few months. We’ll let you know as soon as they’re available. SINE is really going to transform what you can do with those libraries.
> Junkie XL Brass comes with Download a-la-carte, and when we add our other libraries to SINE this will then be available with them too.
> 
> Also more walkthroughs of Junkie XL Brass are coming very soon as we also bring our SINE video series to an end
> 
> Thanks so much for your comments guys, if you have any questions please comment we are working on something to answer all your questions so keep ‘em coming!!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> The OT Team
> 
> http://www.getsine.com/ (www.getsine.com)




This is really awesome, seriously. It’s very clear that you guys really care about the composers, so thank you!


----------



## bvaughn0402

Thundercat said:


> Can you imagine the technical difficulty in retooling all of their existing libraries for something like this? I would imagine it’s a huge undertaking and likely going to proceed slowly on all but the most important libraries. Or ones they’ve been planning this for...
> 
> Mike



and it has almost been a year since they first announced it. Little glimpses seem to show they have probably been working to port this over during this time.


----------



## jbuhler

Dominik said:


> I wish Paul Thompson would make one for OT


I find Paul’s walkthroughs less helpful because he often doesn’t demonstrate the instruments with idiomatic figures but instead treats the patches more as organ stops. At the same time OT’s lack of walkthroughs and demos during the prerelease period is seriously annoying, and now this seems to have become their standard practice.


----------



## 5Lives

jbuhler said:


> I find Paul’s walkthroughs less helpful because he often doesn’t demonstrate the instruments with idiomatic figures but instead treats the patches more as organ stops. At the same time OT’s lack of walkthroughs and demos during the prerelease period is seriously annoying, and now this seems to have become their standard practice.



8Dio and Alex Wallbank create some solid walkthroughs. What Spitfire does well is their “In Action” videos that show the libraries being used.


----------



## Eptesicus

jbuhler said:


> I find Paul’s walkthroughs less helpful because he often doesn’t demonstrate the instruments with idiomatic figures but instead treats the patches more as organ stops. At the same time OT’s lack of walkthroughs and demos during the prerelease period is seriously annoying, and now this seems to have become their standard practice.



Agreed. "Here is a thing you can buy for which the most important thing is how it sounds. But you cant hear how it sounds yet".


----------



## KEM

OT literally just said they’ve got more walkthroughs coming and you’re all still complaining about it...? We’ve still got 6 days until release, that’s more than enough time to put out walkthroughs and demos.


----------



## Eptesicus

KEM said:


> OT literally just said they’ve got more walkthroughs coming and you’re all still complaining about it...? We’ve still got 6 days until release, that’s more than enough time to put out walkthroughs and demos.



Yes, we know. I think people are referring to the long pre order period (before the first walkthrough) with no material.


----------



## KEM

Eptesicus said:


> Yes, we know. I think people are referring to the long pre order period (before the first walkthrough) with no material.



That’s a fair criticism, but I think the first walkthrough alone, along with all the SINE videos, should be convincing enough that this is a good product.


----------



## MartinH.

OrchestralTools said:


> You can install SINE on 3 different machines!





OrchestralTools said:


> Thanks so much for your comments guys, if you have any questions please comment we are working on something to answer all your questions so keep ‘em coming!!



I would like to have some detailed information on how the DRM for SINE works and how you plan to address the usual concerns around that topic: what if my harddisk dies before I can decouple a license from a machine? What if I want to work offline all the time? What happens when your license authorization server goes down a) temporarily or b) permanently? Are we assured that you won't introduce iLok or similar at a later date, like some other companies have done? How are you planning to future-proof our investments to ensure we can still use e.g. JXL brass in 20 years? 

With Kontakt I have some degree of faith that in a worst-case scenario some crackers are just gonna crack it, and ensure all Kontakt libraries remain useable, even if NI goes down and can't release a DRM-free version in time. What assurances can you give us, that investing into the SINE ecosystem will prove to be a good investment for decades to come?

Your player looks quite promising and I truly hope it will be at least a little "game changing"! But there are still a lot of unknowns and I'm not an "early adopter" who is easy to get on board for a new thing like this. Please excuse my scepticism on the DRM side, but plenty of companies taught me that this is warranted nowadays. It's nothing personal.


----------



## gjelul

KEM said:


> OT literally just said they’ve got more walkthroughs coming and you’re all still complaining about it...? We’ve still got 6 days until release, that’s more than enough time to put out walkthroughs and demos.




I was excited on the news of this new brass library (last January.) Now, with so much talk about it, without real walkthroughs, demos, etc., I'm now only interested in the Sine, which looks very very promising. 

Walkthroughs and proper time to review is necessary. Imo, having a walkthrough drop a couple of days before release defeats the point - it's not like we have nothing else to do but to drop everything for these videos to drop 

If the JXL Brass library is amazing and is indeed, the one to rule them all, then even $800 for it would be totally worth it, so $250 more than the pre-release price means nothing.

Hopefully, OT will have a sale on their Berlin series over X-mas / New Year -- that would simplify a lot of things in my decision making process.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

jbuhler said:


> At the same time OT’s lack of walkthroughs and demos during the prerelease period is seriously annoying, and now this seems to have become their standard practice.


I agree, but on the positive side I noticed that there were at least a couple user-created walkthrough/review videos released for Time Micro during the prerelease period (though I think they were close to the end). To me, those make a _big_ difference and I hope Orchestral Tools keeps doing that.


----------



## Raphioli

MartinH. said:


> what if my harddisk dies before I can decouple a license from a machine? What if I want to work offline all the time? What happens when your license authorization server goes down a) temporarily or b) permanently? Are we assured that you won't introduce iLok or similar at a later date, like some other companies have done? How are you planning to future-proof our investments to ensure we can still use e.g. JXL brass in 20 years?



I was so focused on asking for detailed walkthrough of legatos and crossfade that I didn't really think about it.
And come to think of it, I'm also curious how this works.

Especially when our HDD/SSD crash and have to reinstall the OS from scratch on a new hard drive or maybe a completely new PC (things like motherboards can also fail).
If we needed to use the PC which our old license was installed on to deactivate said license, it would cause a headache...
So I hope they add an answer to this on their FAQ page.


----------



## Zero&One

Well I'm waiting for the Christmas sale. Maybe they'll throw in a free gift for late adopters... 
(too early for that? )


----------



## Mike Fox

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I agree, but on the positive side I noticed that there were at least a couple user-created walkthrough/review videos released for Time Micro during the prerelease period (though I think they were close to the end). To me, those make a _big_ difference and I hope Orchestral Tools keeps doing that.


 I agree! Would love to see a walkthrough from Daniel James or Chris Sui.


----------



## Uiroo

James H said:


> Well I'm waiting for the Christmas sale. Maybe they'll throw in a free gift for late adopters...
> (too early for that? )


Well, I can't imagine ANY company would do this


----------



## Benjamin Duk

New video on the product page called "ready to record?"

https://www.orchestraltools.com/store/collections/8


----------



## Real JXL

Stay tuned! Demo’s coming really soon plus more!! And please continue asking questions! Also there will be a youtube live when I do a run through the library! Stay tuned!


----------



## Real JXL

Mike Fox said:


> I agree! Would love to see a walkthrough from Daniel James or Chris Sui.



Daniel mentioned on his youtube channel he was going too! He did analyse the first walkthrough! I would personally look forward to that! His review works adds to all our knowledge around here!


----------



## KEM

Real JXL said:


> Daniel mentioned on his youtube channel he was going too! He did analyse the first walkthrough! I would personally look forward to that! His review works adds to all our knowledge around here!



At least someone appreciates Dan’s input!! Too bad he’s band on here haha


----------



## Real JXL

MartinH. said:


> I would like to have some detailed information on how the DRM for SINE works and how you plan to address the usual concerns around that topic: what if my harddisk dies before I can decouple a license from a machine? What if I want to work offline all the time? What happens when your license authorization server goes down a) temporarily or b) permanently? Are we assured that you won't introduce iLok or similar at a later date, like some other companies have done? How are you planning to future-proof our investments to ensure we can still use e.g. JXL brass in 20 years?
> 
> With Kontakt I have some degree of faith that in a worst-case scenario some crackers are just gonna crack it, and ensure all Kontakt libraries remain useable, even if NI goes down and can't release a DRM-free version in time. What assurances can you give us, that investing into the SINE ecosystem will prove to be a good investment for decades to come?
> 
> Your player looks quite promising and I truly hope it will be at least a little "game changing"! But there are still a lot of unknowns and I'm not an "early adopter" who is easy to get on board for a new thing like this. Please excuse my scepticism on the DRM side, but plenty of companies taught me that this is warranted nowadays. It's nothing personal.



I have been investing in plugins and samplers since the 80’s... Some dodgy, others reliable! I remember buying my first cd rom what later became spectratronics! Also I started working with NI in late 90’s... super small and nobody knew if they would make it.... OT is a solid company; around for many years and many to come... That’s why I picked them... but still... for all you out there... investing in small companies makes the market better, creates better products and prices come down. The winner here? Us composers whether established or new young dogs ready to conquer the world!


----------



## Real JXL

KEM said:


> At least someone appreciates Dan’s input!! Too bad he’s band on here haha



Nah! Give it a few weeks! He is just genuine!


----------



## Real JXL

Eptesicus said:


> Yes, we know. I think people are referring to the long pre order period (before the first walkthrough) with no material.



And dear folks please keep in mind that we’re talking a radical new product here... OT and I have been bashings for years how to get this right... just the brass library alone took 2 years of developing, planning, recording and mixing... Editing millions of samples... scripting and more...

I totally understand the frustration of not enough info... this will change rapidly...

I do want to thank you all on here for the anticipation... I didn’t decide to release a brass library to make money... sticking to scoring movies would be a way better profit...

I care about sound... I care about education... I care about helping composers out there to reach their full potential... I hope and I know... this brass library will help you with that!


----------



## pawelmorytko

Real JXL said:


> And dear folks please keep in mind that we’re talking a radical new product here... OT and I have been bashings for years how to get this right... just the brass library alone took 2 years of developing, planning, recording and mixing... Editing millions of samples... scripting and more...
> 
> I totally understand the frustration of not enough info... this will change rapidly...
> 
> I do want to thank you all on here for the anticipation... I didn’t decide to release a brass library to make money... sticking to scoring movies would be a way better profit...
> 
> I care about sound... I care about education... I care about helping composers out there to reach their full potential... I hope and I know... this brass library will help you with that!


Thank you so much, it really shows that you guys care, OT's new sampler as well is trying to cater and help composers in every way possible, and your approach with this library certainly shows this is not just some money grab.


----------



## Tilt & Flow

KEM said:


> At least someone appreciates Dan’s input!! Too bad he’s band on here haha


It's been said many times - he's NOT banned (or band, if you prefer). Mike said it was a temporary "time out" and he's welcome to return anytime.


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

I'm planning a review for January/February. So excited for this. @Real JXL @OrchestralTools the walkthroughs are sounding quite nice so far.


----------



## Real JXL

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> I'm planning a few for January/February. So excited for this. @Real JXL @OrchestralTools the walkthroughs are sounding quite nice so far.



That’s awesome Chris!


----------



## Virtuoso

Real JXL said:


> Also there will be a youtube live when I do a run through the library!


Is this a different broadcast to the JXL Brass Masterclass available to Pre-Orderers?


----------



## Eptesicus

Real JXL said:


> And dear folks please keep in mind that we’re talking a radical new product here... OT and I have been bashings for years how to get this right... just the brass library alone took 2 years of developing, planning, recording and mixing... Editing millions of samples... scripting and more...
> 
> I totally understand the frustration of not enough info... this will change rapidly...
> 
> I do want to thank you all on here for the anticipation... I didn’t decide to release a brass library to make money... sticking to scoring movies would be a way better profit...
> 
> I care about sound... I care about education... I care about helping composers out there to reach their full potential... I hope and I know... this brass library will help you with that!



Thanks. That is reassuring to hear. I think many people here, including myself just get frustrated when pre-orders go up with little to no audio demonstration.

Personally i think a better approach is simply to have a shorter pre order period (as its not like you can run out of stock!) with lots of demos and walkthroughs available straight away. Or even better, keep things at the opening price for a week or so after release, so people can read/hear reviews and hands on feedback of the product. This is especially important when the library is expensive. The expense is relative i know, but 600 euros (inc VAT) is a lot for some, including myself and you have said yourself that you want this library to be used by all, and to be accessible for pros and non pros alike. Furthermore, another worry in terms of pre-ordering is the fact it is a new player. SINE does look impressive, but preordering before release is a bit of a gamble in terms of it being brand new software. I have no doubt Orchestral Tools will make a great player, but with all new software, there are always bugs/issues and it is a concern as to how long it could take to get it running perfectly.

I will also take this opportunity to say how much i love your Dark Tower Score! I even bought the CD! The brass and the theme in that is brilliant.


----------



## Christopher Rocky

Eptesicus said:


> Thanks. That is reassuring to hear. I think many people here, including myself just get frustrated when pre-orders go up with little to no audio demonstration.
> 
> Personally i think a better approach is simply to have a shorter pre order period (as its not like you can run out of stock!) with lots of demos and walkthroughs available straight away. Or even better, keep things at the opening price for a week or so after release, so people can read/hear reviews and hands on feedback of the product. This is especially important when the library is expensive. The expense is relative i know, but 600 euros (inc VAT) is a lot for some, including myself and you have said yourself that you want this library to be used by all, and to be accessible for pros and non pros alike. Furthermore, another worry in terms of pre-ordering is the fact it is a new player. SINE does look impressive, but preordering before release is a bit of a gamble in terms of it being brand new software. I have no doubt Orchestral Tools will make a great player, but with all new software, there are always bugs/issues and it is a concern as to how long it could take to get it running perfectly.



I wholeheartedly agree with you about pre order price/time of release. If it was pre-order price a week or so after it comes out so all the unbiased reviews can come out. While i trust and love OT and Tom, This is their product so its hard to take their opinions about the library objectively.

someone in my position who is semi pro trying to build a business, 600 euros is like over 1000 aud for me. that is a huge amount for just a brass library (like many are saying in here) 
I have to make decisions about whether its worth the investment, say if i get a gig that needs specific ethnic instruments? that money is gone if i spend it all on jxl brass. I dont look at this as a negative, its just part of trying to earn money using these instruments (not complaining lol) 

The library itself is an absolute no brainer buy for me in terms of quality, but i have to consider price to performance for someone in my position (and many others in my position too!)


----------



## Benjamin Duk




----------



## LudovicVDP

Not a pro, not a specialist, so this comment is worth nothing... but... me like it. :emoji_astonished:


----------



## shawnsingh

I love
- the stacatissimo agility
- the xfading
- the full dynamic range!
- the tone
- the gutsy low brass
- the orchestration/composition of the trailer itself.

I hope
- for great legato and playable runs with an approach similar to Berlin series,
- that the workflow will be great because of the consistent articulations and dynamics.
- that it will be possible to sculpt different attack types very easily - immediate, soft, accented, rounded accent. It could be possible with the given articulations + xfading, at least for a brass library.

I wish
- there could be solo bass trombone
- at least one more solo player for each instrument, in situ like Berlin Brass
- a few more fx articulations like nasty flutters and trills (EDIT - and shakes too) that can't be covered by the existing articulations
- a nitro coffee machine.
- a magic mind reader feature in the SINE player that can just transcribe my brain signals into MIDI

The a6/a12 patches seem great. But personally I prefer to play around with solo/a2/a4 patches with the hopes of being able to emulate a more old fashioned orchestral setup.


----------



## Dominik

5Lives said:


> Century Brass at the current sales price does make an interesting choice vs. JXL - given tone is subjective, do you want more mic positions (JXL) or articulations (Century)?


I don´t want to talk anyone out of Century Brass. But for me the topic was done after downloading the free horn legato library. The notes are so inconsistent and the legato is one of the worst examples of brass legato I have heard so far. Also the cross fading is very weird. Only my oppinion, of course. I own much from 8Dio but nothing from the Century series because besides the things I described already I simply dislike the sound of the recording. Actually I was very greatful for the free library because it prevented me from buying it. I could not hear those things in the walkthroughs.
So, with the existing walk through of OT we are supposed to trust in their sales talk.
I try it.. I have preodered. You can be sure I will rant around here if the library is shit


----------



## Dominik

Raphioli said:


> Sampling is something thats still evolving. I personally think its scaling with how PCs are evolving, because for example, the more dynamic layers, RRs, etc, the more RAM you need and probably becomes more CPU intense, which means you need more CPU power.
> So I don't think we are anywhere at the point where 1 ultimate library will be enough for a lifetime.
> 
> And IMHO,
> 
> saying the above is saying something like "I built so many PCs, but they get replaced with better CPUs/GPUs/motherboards".
> Even if you buy a 2019 Mac Pro which is extremely expensive, it won't be top of the line for a lifetime.
> Same goes with samples. The amount of dynamics, RRs, all that also relies on PC specs and also dev cost. If you want to make profit, you need to set a budget and pricing of the final product. (which will limit how much dynamic layers, RRs, articulations they're able to record)
> 
> Even Hans Zimmer keeps on updating his current library which I've read has enormous amount of dynamic layers and RRs.
> If you really want an ultimate library which serves you for a lifetime, the only way is probably to go bespoke and buy a room full of servers to run it.


You definitely have a point but I think that with current horse power a library can be perfect. I don´t need 30 round robins and 10 mic perspectives. By the way, the meaning of RAM is decreasing in my oppinion because there are SSDs with up to 3500 MB/s streaming now and you don´t need to load everything into RAM to get a good performance. 
It all comes down to the effort which is put in the recording session and the post production. And my point is that I would prefer to have this work done with utter most attention to detail as perfect as possible. Well, then there is the thing with personal taste in either the performance or the recording but for that we have different companies in the business.


----------



## Dominik

OrchestralTools said:


> Switching articulations is one thing.
> Merging, stacking and crossfading them is another!
> Episode 5 of our SINE video series dives into Polymaps, so you can see for yourself the possibilities SINE opens up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We’ve been reading all your comments here and on Facebook and YouTube so will try to answer some here.
> But also don’t forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel and be the first to watch the next/penultimate episode of our SINE series.
> Just to answer some of your questions:
> 
> Single Instruments will be available really soon, but not with the release of Junkie XL Brass on the 16th Dec.
> You can install SINE on 3 different machines!
> Other OT libraries will be added to SINE over the next few months. We’ll let you know as soon as they’re available. SINE is really going to transform what you can do with those libraries.
> Junkie XL Brass comes with Download a-la-carte, and when we add our other libraries to SINE this will then be available with them too.
> 
> Also more walkthroughs of Junkie XL Brass are coming very soon as we also bring our SINE video series to an end
> 
> Thanks so much for your comments guys, if you have any questions please comment we are working on something to answer all your questions so keep ‘em coming!!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> The OT Team
> 
> http://www.getsine.com/ (www.getsine.com)



Thank you as well. I am looking forward to this library. I have preodered it. 

One wish for sine:
please make Sine nks compatible. 

Oh, and it would be great to have stereo combined panners in the mixer to better mix in the close perspectives (if this is not available already) This is a thing which bothers me much with Berlin Brass because you can clearly hear the different players of a section from hard left or right sometimes in the close mics and it just sounds so weird if you mix that with e.g. the decca. Would be much more believable if you could narrow down the stero field and place the players at the respective place on the virtual stage.


----------



## Dominik

jbuhler said:


> I find Paul’s walkthroughs less helpful because he often doesn’t demonstrate the instruments with idiomatic figures but instead treats the patches more as organ stops. At the same time OT’s lack of walkthroughs and demos during the prerelease period is seriously annoying, and now this seems to have become their standard practice.


haha, yes indeed. One of his worst habits is to hold down 10 notes at once when presenting a 60 player section.... well okay, 600 players. Very plausible. I complained about that once and imagine that he improved a little in the last videos. It´s just that I have learned to know what to expect from his walkthroughs. And at least in my oppinion much better then Troels with his talking and talking and talking about how great the stuff is.


----------



## 5Lives

Dominik said:


> I don´t want to talk anyone out of Century Brass. But for me the topic was done after downloading the free horn legato library. The notes are so inconsistent and the legato is one of the worst examples of brass legato I have heard so far. Also the cross fading is very weird. Only my oppinion, of course. I own much from 8Dio but nothing from the Century series because besides the things I described already I simply dislike the sound of the recording. Actually I was very greatful for the free library because it prevented me from buying it. I could not hear those things in the walkthroughs.
> So, with the existing walk through of OT we are supposed to trust in their sales talk.
> I try it.. I have preodered. You can be sure I will rant around here if the library is shit



Thanks for your opinion (I didn’t end up getting it anyway)! Nice - though clearly risky - for 8Dio to offer a free sample. Maybe SINE will allow OT to do that in the future as well.

The trailer demo for JXL does sound fantastic IMO. Whether it is the samples, the recording, the mixing, the programming, I find it to be much more appealing than CSB and Spitfire brass demos. Hopefully we get some more before the launch date.


----------



## mralmostpopular

The demos sound pretty darn good. I’m not a big fan of the big gritty brass sound, but the walkthrough shows that the library has a fair bit of expression. I’m curious to hear some softer stuff and the legatos.

I probably won’t be picking up this library. OT rarely does sales, and at full price, it’s too expensive. I have really liked BBCSO, but it’s just too risky preordering a higher priced library without reviews.


----------



## Real JXL

Dear all, I worked tirelessly on this demo the last week... This is all midi programming... this comes straight out of my cubase template... JXL Brass; Cinematic Strings; Berlin Strings OST; Berlin Woods OST; custom stuff added... No additional mixing or processing... I did add more reverb to brass to taste! I will upload video’s soon on my socials how I made this... Shoot me comments or questions!! Big hug to you all!


----------



## KEM

Real JXL said:


> Dear all, I worked tirelessly on this demo the last week... This is all midi programming... this comes straight out of my cubase template... JXL Brass; Cinematic Strings; Berlin Strings OST; Berlin Woods OST; custom stuff added... No additional mixing or processing... I did add more reverb to brass to taste! I will upload video’s soon on my socials how I made this... Shoot me comments or questions!! Big hug to you all!



It sounds amazing!! But I’ve come to expect that out of you... what composers or eras in particular (if any) inspired the piece? Because it’s very much not like anything you do in most of your film scores (as of now lol)


----------



## Drundfunk

Real JXL said:


> Dear all, I worked tirelessly on this demo the last week... This is all midi programming... this comes straight out of my cubase template... JXL Brass; Cinematic Strings; Berlin Strings OST; Berlin Woods OST; custom stuff added... No additional mixing or processing... I did add more reverb to brass to taste! I will upload video’s soon on my socials how I made this... Shoot me comments or questions!! Big hug to you all!


That would be amazing. A lot of good stuff in the demo (and some stuff I'm still uncertain about, but more demos and walkthroughs will definitely help). It's cool you are being so active here. I'm definitely looking forward to your videos. Cheers!


----------



## Real JXL

KEM said:


> It sounds amazing!! But I’ve come to expect that out of you... what composers or eras in particular (if any) inspired the piece? Because it’s very much not like anything you do in most of your film scores (as of now lol)



Well; you compose the score for a movie that is called for... every director is different; every franchise is different. This demo for instance wouldn’t stand a chance if I played this to George Miller for Mad Max... or Zack Snyder 300.. or Terminator with Cameron... 

But other movies need different tones... Sonic the hedgehog will!!

The Mad Max fans were won over immediately for a JXLbrass library... John Williams fans not immediately... This demo serves the traditional writing for orchestra BUT in a bigger expansive way... My take on williams or sylvestri... Don’t get me wrong... I will never be able to match their brilliant writing or arranging NOR do I pretend to be.... But my idea of sound or production and what to do with mixing might surpass them.... just might...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

KEM said:


> It sounds amazing!! But I’ve come to expect that out of you... what composers or eras in particular (if any) inspired the piece? Because it’s very much not like anything you do in most of your film scores (as of now lol)



its pretty adventurous. Might be intentionally writing outside of his norm to show off the strengths of the library

one thing is for sure, I'll probably only use the first 60% of the modwheek 90% of the time.


----------



## Real JXL

ProfoundSilence said:


> its pretty adventurous. Might be intentionally writing outside of his norm to show off the strengths of the library
> 
> one thing is for sure, I'll probably only use the first 60% of the modwheek 90% of the time.



That’s exactly the idea! You will be very happy with the bottom 3-4 dynamic layers.... Also the library has a soft layer function where the lower layers are emphasized and tweaked more to soft brass composers... This also works in all legato modes!

Out of extreme fun and excitement I’m rewriting a daphney chloey piece heavily inspired on Ravel with very soft tones building into extacy! Like I’ve got nothing else to do!! 😜😜😜


----------



## KEM

Real JXL said:


> That’s exactly the idea! You will be very happy with the bottom 3-4 dynamic layers.... Also the library has a soft layer function where the lower layers are emphasized and tweaked more to soft brass composers... This also works in all legato modes!
> 
> Out of extreme fun and excitement I’m rewriting a daphney chloey piece heavily inspired on Ravel with very soft tones building into extacy! Like I’ve got nothing else to do!! 😜😜😜



Totally off topic but I just wanted to say I love how you’re always rockin Palm Angels clothing and Gucci sneakers in your videos, always respect a guy that knows his designer!!


----------



## Real JXL

KEM said:


> Totally off topic but I just wanted to say I love how you’re always rockin Palm Angels clothing and Gucci sneakers in your videos, always respect a guy that knows his designer!!



What do you say!! Shall we start a fashion talk here on VI? Who ever fucking did that? 

Big hug!


----------



## Real JXL

Real JXL said:


> What do you say!! Shall we start a fashion talk here on VI? Who ever fucking did that?
> 
> Big hug!



We can get into( proper VI style) all the way OR shoe string budget!


----------



## David Kudell

Real JXL said:


> Dear all, I worked tirelessly on this demo the last week... This is all midi programming... this comes straight out of my cubase template... JXL Brass; Cinematic Strings; Berlin Strings OST; Berlin Woods OST; custom stuff added... No additional mixing or processing... I did add more reverb to brass to taste! I will upload video’s soon on my socials how I made this... Shoot me comments or questions!! Big hug to you all!



Such an awesome piece of music! I imagine a scene where our heroes take off on an epic flight! 

I love the section at 1:08-1:15 where you transition "from the quietest pianissimo" to "the loudest sounds physically possible" - the music and the visuals being in sync there was awesome.


----------



## KEM

Me and Tom are gonna start our own fashion chat thread, we’ll see you guys later...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Real JXL said:


> Dear all, I worked tirelessly on this demo the last week... This is all midi programming... this comes straight out of my cubase template... JXL Brass; Cinematic Strings; Berlin Strings OST; Berlin Woods OST; custom stuff added... No additional mixing or processing... I did add more reverb to brass to taste! I will upload video’s soon on my socials how I made this... Shoot me comments or questions!! Big hug to you all!





Real JXL said:


> That’s exactly the idea! You will be very happy with the bottom 3-4 dynamic layers.... Also the library has a soft layer function where the lower layers are emphasized and tweaked more to soft brass composers... This also works in all legato modes!
> 
> Out of extreme fun and excitement I’m rewriting a daphney chloey piece heavily inspired on Ravel with very soft tones building into extacy! Like I’ve got nothing else to do!! 😜😜😜



I'll probably ride dynamics to the edge of breakup... kind of like getting a professional guitar tone - its great if you have extra in reserve, but I just know there is a sweet spot with the thickness and punch with the right amount of bite! 

I think part of the William's sound is the trick where you generally record much lower dynamics like a Mozart forte(mf) being the loudest it gets. 

normally you dont have much choice because you only have 2(or 3) dynamic layers so you only have a few areas of the model you can hang out. 

I REALLY want to hear some mockups with this. 

imagine a film score esque quality tone and section size crushing night on bald mountain, or scythian suite. 

this seems like a good candidate for mars bringer of war as well. 

I'm really excited to hear how a3 trumpets, a6 horns, a3 bass bones sounds as an ensemble... 

anyone got any good ideas for bruckner mockups?? I'm not as familiar with that catalogue


----------



## Raphioli

KEM said:


> Totally off topic but I just wanted to say I love how you’re always rockin Palm Angels clothing and Gucci sneakers in your videos, always respect a guy that knows his designer!!



I think it was last year, when I was watching one of his videos on Youtube,
I became interested in the purple jersey he was wearing and did a ton of Google search starting from "purple jerseys" because I didn't know that specific brand.
When I finally got my answer, I was stoned at how expensive it was lol


----------



## tabulius

shawnsingh said:


> I love
> - the stacatissimo agility
> - the xfading
> - the full dynamic range!
> - the tone
> - the gutsy low brass
> - the orchestration/composition of the trailer itself.
> 
> I hope
> - for great legato and playable runs with an approach similar to Berlin series,
> - that the workflow will be great because of the consistent articulations and dynamics.
> - that it will be possible to sculpt different attack types very easily - immediate, soft, accented, rounded accent. It could be possible with the given articulations + xfading, at least for a brass library.
> 
> I wish
> - there could be solo bass trombone
> - at least one more solo player for each instrument, in situ like Berlin Brass
> - a few more fx articulations like nasty flutters and trills (EDIT - and shakes too) that can't be covered by the existing articulations
> - a nitro coffee machine.
> - a magic mind reader feature in the SINE player that can just transcribe my brain signals into MIDI
> 
> The a6/a12 patches seem great. But personally I prefer to play around with solo/a2/a4 patches with the hopes of being able to emulate a more old fashioned orchestral setup.



I agree all the points +1


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hi everyone
Episode 6 of our SINE Player video series is now up and answers some of the questions we've seen here. E.g. yes with Junkie XL Brass through SINE you'll be able to change the attack and release!



Not only can you build your own Legato Map, but with SINE like we said above you can also change the attack and release of articulations.
Very useful – for example, you can reduce the room sound on an articulation. You can also personalize the round robins, and make other detail tweaks.

We can’t wait to hear your thoughts on this when Junkie XL Brass & SINE become available on Monday.

Best,

OT Team


----------



## borisb2

Speaking of mockup/demo, I guess the ultimate way to promote JXL-brass would be the Star Wars intro (especially in these days 😋 ).

Jean-Gabriel Raynaud did already an amazing job with Strezov Brass a while ago, and the comments went crazy.. (just love the comment at 0.24)


Could imagine JXL-brass would bring that to the next level


----------



## Loïc D

borisb2 said:


> Speaking of mock-up/demo, I guess the ultimate way to promote JXL-brass would be the Star Wars intro (especially in these days 😋 ).
> 
> Jean-Gabriel Raynaud did already an amazing job with Strezov Brass a while ago, and the comments went crazy..
> 
> 
> Could imagine JXL-brass would bring that to the next level



Sure, but no mutes in JXL (yet)


----------



## borisb2

LowweeK said:


> Sure, but no mutes in JXL (yet)


Oh damn


----------



## Real JXL

Here a Ravel inspired piece with softer tones of the library explored... I just got really into it!!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

this will be the ultimate test for bones.

also I think jxl brass would NAIL


----------



## borisb2

Real JXL said:


> Here a Ravel inspired piece with softer tones of the library explored... I just got really into it!!


nice piece .. is that cinematic strings in the beginning as well? sounds more chamber than CS2


----------



## ProfoundSilence

borisb2 said:


> nice piece .. is that cinematic strings in the beginning as well? sounds more chamber than CS2


berlin strings is smaller section sizes than css and es2, I'm at work so i cant listen


----------



## KEM

borisb2 said:


> nice piece .. is that cinematic strings in the beginning as well? sounds more chamber than CS2



Tom’s always used Cinematic Strings 2 and Berlin Strings, at least in his tutorials


----------



## borisb2

KEM said:


> Tom’s always used Cinematic Strings 2 and Berlin Strings, at least in his tutorials


Thought he was using the old version (CS, CS1?), but I‘m not sure if they were different recordings than CS2... so Berlin Strings then 👍


----------



## purple

Real JXL said:


> Here a Ravel inspired piece with softer tones of the library explored... I just got really into it!!


Really cool piece. It seems to me one of the biggest strengths of this library is dynamic range. At the end of the day, what compels listeners is the expression moreso than the fine details of realism.


----------



## fish_hoof

Just pre-bought and can't wait to download. I have a project for Christmas and excited to add this to my piece. Thank you @Real JXL. I've been waiting all year for this library and didn't buy a thing on Black Friday because of it.


----------



## gjelul

ProfoundSilence said:


> this will be the ultimate test for bones.
> 
> also I think jxl brass would NAIL





+1 

I agree with you, the Mahler excerpt is the perfect test for the Trbs + Tuba and the Bruckner is a great example for potential mock-up with the whole brs section. All would have been clearer after that


----------



## Real JXL

here is an update


----------



## OrchestralTools

We just released the 2nd walkthrough



This walkthrough takes you through each instrument of the Junkie XL Brass library. 
From solo instruments up to sections of 12 players, listen to the highly consistent articulations and legato patches.

Remember, pre-order includes access to a live masterclass with Junkie XL himself, teaching you how to fully utilize this brass library.

If you have any questions let us know, and we're working on a Demo as we speak..

Best,

OT Team


----------



## KEM

OrchestralTools said:


> We just released the 2nd walkthrough
> 
> 
> 
> This walkthrough takes you through each instrument of the Junkie XL Brass library.
> From solo instruments up to sections of 12 players, listen to the highly consistent articulations and legato patches.
> 
> Remember, pre-order includes access to a live masterclass with Junkie XL himself, teaching you how to fully utilize this brass library.
> 
> If you have any questions let us know, and we're working on a Demo as we speak..
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT Team




AMAZING!! ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!!!


----------



## alfred tapscott

Real JXL said:


> here is an update


something's wrong with that Harp Tom  you got the Debussy chord right, though


----------



## Geocranium

Man the fast articulated shorts on this sound incredible. Sounds just like an actual double/triple tongue recording.


----------



## josephwmorgan

OrchestralTools said:


> We just released the 2nd walkthrough
> 
> 
> 
> This walkthrough takes you through each instrument of the Junkie XL Brass library.
> From solo instruments up to sections of 12 players, listen to the highly consistent articulations and legato patches.
> 
> Remember, pre-order includes access to a live masterclass with Junkie XL himself, teaching you how to fully utilize this brass library.
> 
> If you have any questions let us know, and we're working on a Demo as we speak..
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT Team




this sounds incredible. will be purchasing ASAP


----------



## Fitz

OrchestralTools said:


> We just released the 2nd walkthrough
> 
> 
> 
> This walkthrough takes you through each instrument of the Junkie XL Brass library.
> From solo instruments up to sections of 12 players, listen to the highly consistent articulations and legato patches.
> 
> Remember, pre-order includes access to a live masterclass with Junkie XL himself, teaching you how to fully utilize this brass library.
> 
> If you have any questions let us know, and we're working on a Demo as we speak..
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT Team



Congrats guys. Unbelievable. Can't wait for this, and hopefully future JXL collaborations.


----------



## Zeff

Real JXL said:


> here is an update





OrchestralTools said:


> We just released the 2nd walkthrough
> 
> 
> 
> This walkthrough takes you through each instrument of the Junkie XL Brass library.
> From solo instruments up to sections of 12 players, listen to the highly consistent articulations and legato patches.
> 
> Remember, pre-order includes access to a live masterclass with Junkie XL himself, teaching you how to fully utilize this brass library.
> 
> If you have any questions let us know, and we're working on a Demo as we speak..
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT Team




This sounds truly amazing, both the walkthrough and your excerpt Tom!

@Real JXL Goed gedaan!! (een klein dingetje: de noten van de harp lijken te overlappen, but that's a minor detail considering the point of the piece, or moreso the focus, was on the capabilities of the brass-library !)

As a person who doesn't own any brass library yet, would you say this is a good investment for orchestral, but also other genre's like Hip-Hop and Jazz? I'm really into the sound of orchestra, but also like the idea of a world where genres blend more and more together !


----------



## Benjamin Duk

This brass library sounds fantastic! Just pre-ordered! The dynamic range is so good in this library.


----------



## Consona

F***ing sucks I'm broke.   

And it f***ing sucks I can't resell my old libraries. 


I'll save money for horns a6, that's like a standard film orchestra section size. But dunno about trumpets. JXL has a3 and a6, but as far as I know, a standard section is 4 trumpets. I'll check some reviews on youtube to decide what to buy. I'm curious how much will the sound differ having double the players.

I think I'll sell my studio monitors and will be mixing on headphones so I can buy trombones.


----------



## lucor

Well shit, I think you got me with that last walkthrough. Will definitely preorder tomorrow.  
I thought I was set with brass due to how much I love CSB, but this seems to have all of CSB's strengths (full dynamic range, consistency, etc.), but with a much better sound/stage... I just love the sound of brass in Teldex.
@OrchestralTools regarding the livestream with Tom, will there be a recording available in case we can't make the live date?


----------



## Benjamin Duk

Consona said:


> F***ing sucks I'm broke.
> 
> And it f***ing sucks I can't resell my old libraries.
> 
> 
> I'll save money for horns a6, that's like a standard film orchestra section size. But dunno about trumpets. JXL has a3 and a6, but as far as I know, a standard section is 4 trumpets. I'll check some reviews on youtube to decide what to buy. I'm curious how much will the sound differ having double the players.
> 
> I think I'll sell my studio monitors and will be mixing on headphones so I can buy trombones.



Haha I know what you mean :D

Well if you want, send me a midi track you want me to demo the trumpets for you with the a3 and a6. I'd be happy to do that for you.


----------



## Benjamin Duk

lucor said:


> Well shit, I think you got me with that last walkthrough. Will definitely preorder tomorrow.
> I thought I was set with brass due to how much I love CSB, but this seems to have all of CSB's strengths (full dynamic range, consistency, etc.), but with a much better sound/stage... I just love the sound of brass in Teldex.
> @OrchestralTools regarding the livestream with Tom, will there be a recording available in case we can't make the live date?



As posted on the JXL Brass page:

_"*Date and time TBD. Pre-order customers that cannot make the masterclass in real time will be sent the recorded video._ "


----------



## Consona

Benjamin Duk said:


> Haha I know what you mean :D
> 
> Well if you want, send me a midi track you want me to demo the trumpets for you with the a3 and a6. I'd be happy to do that for you.


You are so generous, thanks man! See ya in the Wrath of Khan mock-up thread.


----------



## Benjamin Duk

Consona said:


> You are so generous, thanks man! See ya in the Wrath of Khan mock-up thread.



Haha sure thing


----------



## Mike Fox

OrchestralTools said:


> We just released the 2nd walkthrough
> 
> 
> 
> This walkthrough takes you through each instrument of the Junkie XL Brass library.
> From solo instruments up to sections of 12 players, listen to the highly consistent articulations and legato patches.
> 
> Remember, pre-order includes access to a live masterclass with Junkie XL himself, teaching you how to fully utilize this brass library.
> 
> If you have any questions let us know, and we're working on a Demo as we speak..
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT Team



Makes all other brass libraries sound like this...


----------



## Consona

Mike Fox said:


> Makes all other brass libraries sound like this...



I expected her father to punch him.


----------



## jcrosby

OrchestralTools said:


> We just released the 2nd walkthrough
> 
> 
> 
> This walkthrough takes you through each instrument of the Junkie XL Brass library.
> From solo instruments up to sections of 12 players, listen to the highly consistent articulations and legato patches.
> 
> Remember, pre-order includes access to a live masterclass with Junkie XL himself, teaching you how to fully utilize this brass library.
> 
> If you have any questions let us know, and we're working on a Demo as we speak..
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT Team




As expected this sounds absolutely phenomenal 

Just goes to show that forums are about the worst possible place for people to form an opinion, especially based on an initial 15 seconds of audio that represents a microscopic amount of what a library offers. I don't know how you keep your composure but you've weathered the criticism like a class act...

Beautifully done fellas, and very much looking forward to it!


----------



## Eptesicus

jcrosby said:


> As expected this sounds absolutely phenomenal
> 
> Just goes to show that forums are about the worst possible place for people to form an opinion, especially based on an initial 15 seconds of audio that represents a microscopic amount of what a library offers. I don't know how you keep your composure but you've weathered the criticism like a class act...
> 
> Beautifully done fellas, and very much looking forward to it!



Ay?

It isn't our fault that the initial teaser was rubbish is it!?


----------



## Saxer




----------



## Jack Weaver

Dear Orchestral Tools People,

Is this going to be a Continuata experience?

.


----------



## emanon

Curious to know what the "purge" button is supposed to do? So far couldn't find any info yet.
(hoping it will help reducing the memory consumption just like Kontakt)


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Jack Weaver said:


> Dear Orchestral Tools People,
> 
> Is this going to be a Continuata experience?
> 
> .



bruuhhh you just download it from sine


----------



## mralmostpopular

So am I reading right that the library takes up 300 MB?

EDIT: Whoops. I meant 300 GB.


----------



## Drundfunk

mralmostpopular said:


> So am I reading right that the library takes up 300 MB?


 Uninstalled, yes xD


----------



## Real JXL

Dear sample friends! I love to read all the comments here! It takes me back in the day when I started to buy gear... please let me indulge you... So, things were way more expensive in the early 80’s. To buy a decent synth or sampler you needed at least 3000$ or more... So I would go from music shop to music shop... Internet was not a thing and hardware synth or sampler you could NOT download from your couch! Also every shop was or was not a dealer for a specific synth! One music store was a Yahama dealer eg dx7... others were Roland dealers eg Juno 106 or JP8... Others did Korg... Others did Kawai and so forth.... My super hard earned dollars were burning in my wallet! But what to buy? You collected brochures... went to live shows and talked to keyboards players... go to industry shows like Namm... or equivalents in the rest of the world... One box offered this But not That? Others offered That but not This? Aaaaggghhhh WHAT TO DO???

I went through this for years and years!

Let’s appreciate a few new things here for all of us before we buy anything;

WE HAVE INTERNET!!!!

We can listen to high quality demo’s
We can watch the plugin in action
We can watch tutorials 
We can join forums to discuss
We can read online the features
We can enjoy how much cheaper everything is

Ok, those are the benefits now compared to 83

But!!!! The money you’re about to spend is your hard earned money! You made it on your own and your about to spend it on something! 

You deserve the highest honor if you do so on any library! That company should really acknowledge your loyalty for doing so.

They should deliver top notch products with no failures. Or at least fantastic customer service! And keep you informed on updates.

In 82 the scrutiny on hardware synths and samplers were insane... Once you roll out it better be fucking perfect because there is no online firmware or software update...

In 2019 people tend to roll out stuff that shouldn’t be released in the first place... 

Sure, let’s take all our first buyers as guinny pigs or beta testers and lets see from there.... that’s NOT the way forward

Long story short;

I admire the brutal criticism on this forum! Hell yeah! Its your hard earned hundreds of dollars! I would be too!

I also admire the love of fans from the start! It’s your hundreds of dollars too!

All I can say is that I put all the energy I had to make this a stellar library for you guys!

I am a solid guy. The OT guys are rock solid guys.

We want to make you kings of brass writing! Kings of brass production!

We will be there with you all the time to improve our product! We listen to what say to make things better!

I’ve been interactive from the start to get your guys input and a lot of it is in here.

For starters join me coming monday 8am pst for a youtube live on my channel...

Ask any question and I will answer it with the whole library loaded for playback and show casing!

Whether you bitch or you love... to me you’re all the same! You’re passionate music lovers programmers composers! And your opinion matters!

But please... lets be happy its 2019 and not 1982!!

Big hug to you all!

Xxx

Tom


----------



## Tvliesin

Any chance you could extend the promo price a few days or a week for those of us who are on the fence and wanting to see a few reviews?


----------



## Mike Fox

Real JXL said:


> Dear sample friends! I love to read all the comments here! It takes me back in the day when I started to buy gear... please let me indulge you... So, things were way more expensive in the early 80’s. To buy a decent synth or sampler you needed at least 3000$ or more... So I would go from music shop to music shop... Internet was not a thing and hardware synth or sampler you could NOT download from your couch! Also every shop was or was not a dealer for a specific synth! One music store was a Yahama dealer eg dx7... others were Roland dealers eg Juno 106 or JP8... Others did Korg... Others did Kawai and so forth.... My super hard earned dollars were burning in my wallet! But what to buy? You collected brochures... went to live shows and talked to keyboards players... go to industry shows like Namm... or equivalents in the rest of the world... One box offered this But not That? Others offered That but not This? Aaaaggghhhh WHAT TO DO???
> 
> I went through this for years and years!
> 
> Let’s appreciate a few new things here for all of us before we buy anything;
> 
> WE HAVE INTERNET!!!!
> 
> We can listen to high quality demo’s
> We can watch the plugin in action
> We can watch tutorials
> We can join forums to discuss
> We can read online the features
> We can enjoy how much cheaper everything is
> 
> Ok, those are the benefits now compared to 83
> 
> But!!!! The money you’re about to spend is your hard earned money! You made it on your own and your about to spend it on something!
> 
> You deserve the highest honor if you do so on any library! That company should really acknowledge your loyalty for doing so.
> 
> They should deliver top notch products with no failures. Or at least fantastic customer service! And keep you informed on updates.
> 
> In 82 the scrutiny on hardware synths and samplers were insane... Once you roll out it better be fucking perfect because there is no online firmware or software update...
> 
> In 2019 people tend to roll out stuff that shouldn’t be released in the first place...
> 
> Sure, let’s take all our first buyers as guinny pigs or beta testers and lets see from there.... that’s NOT the way forward
> 
> Long story short;
> 
> I admire the brutal criticism on this forum! Hell yeah! Its your hard earned hundreds of dollars! I would be too!
> 
> I also admire the love of fans from the start! It’s your hundreds of dollars too!
> 
> All I can say is that I put all the energy I had to make this a stellar library for you guys!
> 
> I am a solid guy. The OT guys are rock solid guys.
> 
> We want to make you kings of brass writing! Kings of brass production!
> 
> We will be there with you all the time to improve our product! We listen to what say to make things better!
> 
> I’ve been interactive from the start to get your guys input and a lot of it is in here.
> 
> For starters join me coming monday 8am pst for a youtube live on my channel...
> 
> Ask any question and I will answer it with the whole library loaded for playback and show casing!
> 
> Whether you bitch or you love... to me you’re all the same! You’re passionate music lovers programmers composers! And your opinion matters!
> 
> But please... lets be happy its 2019 and not 1982!!
> 
> Big hug to you all!
> 
> Xxx
> 
> Tom


This has got to be one of the best posts I've ever read on these forums. Some incredibly solid points here, and what you said about the brutal critcism is straight up commendable. Much love and respect, man.


----------



## Real JXL

Mike Fox said:


> This has got to be one of the best posts I've ever read on these forums. Some incredibly solid points here, and what you said about the brutal critcism is straight up commendable. Much love and respect, man.




Thank you! Everybody here on VI wants to see things get better! Its good for us composers and developers! The bar is high as it should be!

Xxx


----------



## KEM

Real JXL said:


> Thank you! Everybody here on VI wants to see things get better! Its good for us composers and developers! The bar is high as it should be!
> 
> Xxx



I'm with Mike on this one, thanks for everything you do for the community, as a young kid trying to get into this world your tutorials have been a huge help and inspiration for years, and this library is keeping the bar held very high. Thank you!!


----------



## mralmostpopular

Tvliesin said:


> Any chance you could extend the promo price a few days or a week for those of us who are on the fence and wanting to see a few reviews?



Not very likely. I would be very surprised if they did that.


----------



## axb312

Tvliesin said:


> Any chance you could extend the promo price a few days or a week for those of us who are on the fence and wanting to see a few reviews?



@OrchestralTools @Real JXL I would love for this to happen...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

mralmostpopular said:


> Not very likely. I would be very surprised if they did that.



"pre-order"

not everyone agrees with the pre-order as a choice, but literally ends up only costing like 50$ more most of the time - so you're still saving like 200$ or something


----------



## Tvliesin

axb312 said:


> @OrchestralTools @Real JXL I would love for this to happen...


its definitely already fairly priced for what you’re getting, but for me personally it would only be a purchase at the promo price and being able to see a review or two would really help influence that. It sounds incredible so far.


----------



## meradium

Just like the walkthroughs of the original did... if they indeed nailed it this time I would be all over an update for BB. This is just too many instruments playing at once.


----------



## erikradbo

Tvliesin said:


> Any chance you could extend the promo price a few days or a week for those of us who are on the fence and wanting to see a few reviews?


 +1 on this, obviously


----------



## Eptesicus

Tvliesin said:


> Any chance you could extend the promo price a few days or a week for those of us who are on the fence and wanting to see a few reviews?



Whilst I agree this should have been the deal from the start, if they changed it now, that is going to annoy a lot of people who pre ordered (and rightly so).

I hope for that reason, that they dont.


----------



## staypuft

How much of an overlap do you think JXLB is if you already have one or more of the following titles:: Berlin Brass, Cinematic Studio Brass, Infinite Brass, BBCSO, Caspian, HWB, Century Brass.

Please objective comments only....let´s discuss the positive aspects of our current libs compared to what we heard of JB, I think this could prove useful in the final stretch of the preorder campaign.


----------



## Benjamin Duk

staypuft said:


> How much of an overlap do you think JXLB is if you already have one or more of the following titles:: Berlin Brass, Cinematic Studio Brass, Infinite Brass, BBCSO, Caspian, HWB, Century Brass.
> 
> Please objective comments only....let´s discuss the positive aspects of our current libs compared to what we heard of JB, I think this could prove useful in the final stretch of the preorder campaign.



I've got BBCSO and what I can tell you is that the brass library has very little dynamic range and the change between each layer is noticeable when it changes and can be very jarring. Having so few dynamic layers in a brass library is a very big negative, because you want those soft sounds as well as the very brassy ones. After using BBCSO for a bit now I actually dislike their player as well and how it's setup. From the JXLB walkthrough videos I can already see that working with it will be a lot easier for me. Once again function over form. A lot of tools developed in the Sine player which will help the end user.

So JXLB will definitely replace the brass section for sure. It really isn't even a competition in my opinion.


----------



## Christopher Rocky

staypuft said:


> How much of an overlap do you think JXLB is if you already have one or more of the following titles:: Berlin Brass, Cinematic Studio Brass, Infinite Brass, BBCSO, Caspian, HWB, Century Brass.
> 
> Please objective comments only....let´s discuss the positive aspects of our current libs compared to what we heard of JB, I think this could prove useful in the final stretch of the preorder campaign.


After the new video of hearing all the patches today, i went and compared it with spitfire symphonic brass, metropolis arks and CSB (with no post processing) 

I had to make a few multis with SSB and mess with the three mic positions to get as close as i could to that punchy tone, it was quite close to the loud and soft dynamic of JXLB. its with the wet sound of the air hall so it already sounds a bit different already.

with the ark 1 sustains tone, it was 'similar', in terms of having having a soft pp and also a ripping ff dynamic, but the transitions between the layers aren't the best.

CSB has the smoothest transition between the dynamic layers but it still isnt as fff, even though CSB does go quite loud.

the BIGGEST difference i found was i could not mimic the dynamics from soft to loud like in that walkthrough. 
The transition between the 5 dynamic layers in that video are as smooth as a babys arse. 

While i could get close to the ppp and fff in isolation, its the movement of dynamics i could not mimic. 
the closest for me is CSB though. (keep in mind i did not automate, just played live with the mod wheel, you could perfect the dynamics in any of those libs in automation)

so for me the biggest differences are:
-dynamic movement, the ppp to fff is phenomenal 
-the sound of the room, 
-the extra mics AND the mic merging ability (seriously amazing) 
-having to learn/use the new sine player

JXLbrass is truly a great offering, well done OT and Tom. 

I didnt bother and compare it to BBCSO because its not the same sound at all. (but i've heard your demos with it @staypuft and i dont know how you got it to sound so cinematic and not classical!)


----------



## novaburst

Those mic positions in the new player are certainly worth the investment mic merge is simply a game changer,

It does give the impression that any other library that is developed for this player will have the same approach as this new brass library, so it will be nice to see what OT do with any old String library or are we to expect a new String library with a lot more mic positions as this seems to be the key that to the player.

What ever way you look at this it has pushed the boundary even further and gives the feeling we are entering a new age in sample recordings.


----------



## staypuft

ChristopherRock said:


> I didnt bother and compare it to BBCSO because its not the same sound at all. (but i've heard your demos with it @staypuft and i dont know how you got it to sound so cinematic and not classical!)


Great reply thanks, I agree with you. 

About the cinematic sound....I´ve used a bunch of microphones, can´t remember exactly which ones but having 20 mics surely helps to shape the sound. The writing is also very//most important to achieve the big Hollywood sound.


----------



## jononotbono

staypuft said:


> Great reply thanks, I agree with you.
> 
> About the cinematic sound....I´ve used a bunch of microphones, can´t remember exactly which ones but having 20 mics surely helps to shape the sound. The writing is also very//most important to achieve the big Hollywood sound.



Could you link me with these demos you have written? Be interested in hearing them. And yes, I never understand why people go on about wishing they had less mic positions. They are one of the most important aspects of a library.


----------



## borisb2

staypuft said:


> How much of an overlap do you think JXLB is if you already have one or more of the following titles:: Berlin Brass, Cinematic Studio Brass, Infinite Brass, BBCSO, Caspian, HWB, Century Brass.


Over the last few days I was comparing the walkthroughs with HWB, CSB and Cinebrass.. I‘m a bit hesitant to say it, but sound wise its surprisingly close to Hollywood Brass, much more than CSB. Inspired by the walkthroughs I was adding a bit more compression (to mainly bump up the low dynamics) and EQ at the low end and voila, getting even closer 👍👍



ChristopherRock said:


> the closest for me is CSB though


I found CSB behaving a lot more different, especially transistion from low dynamics to brassy sound happening a lot quicker - too quick for my liking


----------



## Eptesicus

borisb2 said:


> Over the last few days I was comparing the walkthroughs with HWB, CSB and Cinebrass.. I‘m a bit hesitant to say it, but sound wise its surprisingly close to Hollywood Brass, much more than CSB. Inspired by the walkthroughs I am adding a bit more compression (to mainly bump up the low dynamics) and EQ at the low end and voila, getting closer 👍👍



Hollywood Brass has a very good tone and has some gems (the trumpet legato patches are great). However, i find it annoying to work with and i don't find the shorts convincing or consistent enough.


----------



## Dominik

Real JXL said:


> I admire the brutal criticism on this forum! Hell yeah!


oh.. I wasn´t aware that you and OT are present here 

P.S. I hope that you don´t have to endure more brutal criticism after release. But if the product is as good as you claim you need not to worry 

I have high hopes in this. It´s not that I have much money to spare but I prefer to have a flawless high quality library than saving money. I bought Jaeger at BF and am totally unimpressed. JXL Brass seems to be inspiring and I am looking forward to dive into it.


----------



## Dominik

Consona said:


> F***ing sucks I'm broke.
> 
> And it f***ing sucks I can't resell my old libraries.
> 
> 
> I'll save money for horns a6, that's like a standard film orchestra section size. But dunno about trumpets. JXL has a3 and a6, but as far as I know, a standard section is 4 trumpets. I'll check some reviews on youtube to decide what to buy. I'm curious how much will the sound differ having double the players.
> 
> I think I'll sell my studio monitors and will be mixing on headphones so I can buy trombones.


I would always take solo instruments as well if available. With that you can split voices and you can build a 4 player patch with a3 and solo trumpets.


----------



## Dominik

staypuft said:


> How much of an overlap do you think JXLB is if you already have one or more of the following titles:: Berlin Brass, Cinematic Studio Brass, Infinite Brass, BBCSO, Caspian, HWB, Century Brass.
> 
> Please objective comments only....let´s discuss the positive aspects of our current libs compared to what we heard of JB, I think this could prove useful in the final stretch of the preorder campaign.


I can only speak for Berlin Brass. I like the legatos and the lyrical quality of most of the instruments as well as the possibility to write with dedicated solo players. But I think JXL Brass will replace most of the usages I have for Berlin Brass because FF in BB sounds like MF in JXL Brassn - if at all.


----------



## jononotbono

Dominik said:


> I can only speak for Berlin Brass. I like the legatos and the lyrical quality of most of the instruments as well as the possibility to write with dedicated solo players. But I think JXL Brass will replace most of the usages I have for Berlin Brass because FF in BB sounds like MF in JXL Brassn - if at all.



There are a lot more Articulations in BB right? So I can imagine JXLB and BB working very well together. Hopefully people with both will make some videos on this soon enough.


----------



## Consona

Dominik said:


> I would always take solo instruments as well if available. With that you can split voices and you can build a 4 player patch with a3 and solo trumpets.


Yea, but I definitely don't have money for that. I want horn and trumpet sections for sure, I need these leading instruments with the very fast convincing legato and runs. I compose that kind of music and still don't have a library for it.

Maybe, if I have the money, I will get trombones. Like in a year or so. Solos would be nice, but so far, my priority is the sections. Horns a6, trumpets a3 or a6 depending on how will they sound in user demos. Still waiting for those individual instrument prices.


----------



## Dominik

jononotbono said:


> There are a lot more Articulations in BB right? So I can imagine JXLB and BB working very well together. Hopefully people with both will make some videos on this soon enough.


I wouldn´t say a lot more. In BB you have swells short / long, crescendo short / long, the repetitions and trills. But I think they have not done that because these articulations are obsolete with good staccatissimos and seamless dynamic crossfading. I only use crescendos in BB because they go a little louder as the sustains. If the new library lives to its expectations I think Berlin Brass will be used not often anymore in my music. I always desperately miss FF and FFF when composing with Berlin Brass. But let´s see.


----------



## purple

borisb2 said:


> Over the last few days I was comparing the walkthroughs with HWB, CSB and Cinebrass.. I‘m a bit hesitant to say it, but sound wise its surprisingly close to Hollywood Brass, much more than CSB. Inspired by the walkthroughs I was adding a bit more compression (to mainly bump up the low dynamics) and EQ at the low end and voila, getting even closer 👍👍
> 
> 
> I found CSB behaving a lot more different, especially transistion from low dynamics to brassy sound happening a lot quicker - too quick for my liking


I agree. I find that my main gripe with CSB is that there isn't a good "true full mf" middle ground between "brassy FF" and "warm PP"


----------



## Mike Fox

jononotbono said:


> And yes, I never understand why people go on about wishing they had less mic positions. They are one of the most important aspects of a library.



Simplicity. I've never needed more than 3 or 4 mic positions to achieve desired results. Panning, and reverb is what i mainly rely on when mixing, not so much mic positions, though they certainly do help. I just don't want to have to spend excess time screwing around with several mic positions trying to find the perfect mix and instrument flavor. Excess mics translates to wasted time for me, though i understand everyone's preferences and workflow is different.

I would also much rather save on hard drive space than use it for 10+ mics.


----------



## jononotbono

Mike Fox said:


> I would also much rather save on hard drive space than use it for 10+ mics.



I wouldn’t. Mic choices vs buying another hard drive? No contest. For me anyway. Each to their own.


----------



## Mike Fox

jononotbono said:


> I wouldn’t. Mic choices vs buying another hard drive? No contest. For me anyway. Each to their own.


Not just HD space, but load times as well. In my experience, several mics can slow the writing process down. I've spent hours fiddling with mic positions, only to go back to the default setting.

Regardless, I can understand why people like them. They can add tonal variety and help with the mixing process. I was just trying to explain why some of us don't always prefer an abundance of mic positions. If you like to tweak, then several mic positions are the way to go. If you like to get in and get out (my prefered workflow), then they can become an annoyance. Like you said, to each their own.


----------



## Tvliesin

Goodbye Prophet 6. Hello Junkie XL Brass. (Plus probably hz strings and Perc pro at Christmas)


----------



## novaburst

Mike Fox said:


> Not just HD space, but load times as well



I think this will be overcome with merge, so once you have set your desired ambiance or tone those mic positions can be place into one mic if i am understanding correctly


----------



## Benjamin Duk

What I hope Orchestral Tools does is offer a few downloadable presets for the Mic Merge option. Like a Traditional preset, Modern Film Score etc.


----------



## KEM

Tvliesin said:


> Goodbye Prophet 6. Hello Junkie XL Brass. (Plus probably hz strings and Perc pro at Christmas)



If you’re talking about Hans Zimmer Percussion Pro I’d suggest you get LA Modern Percussion, I have both and LAMP is way better. HZ Strings is great but it has so many pops and audio dropouts that get really annoying, but the library itself sounds great.


----------



## Living Fossil

OrchestralTools said:


> This walkthrough takes you through each instrument of the Junkie XL Brass library.
> From solo instruments up to sections of 12 players, listen to the highly consistent articulations and legato patches.



I think this has be asked previously, but i'm unable to find the info:
What about the RAM consumption of this plug in when the Purge option is used?


----------



## Tvliesin

KEM said:


> If you’re talking about Hans Zimmer Percussion Pro I’d suggest you get LA Modern Percussion, I have both and LAMP is way better. HZ Strings is great but it has so many pops and audio dropouts that get really annoying, but the library itself sounds great.



First time I've seen LAMP recommended over HZ perc... I'll check it out.


----------



## josephwmorgan

KEM said:


> If you’re talking about Hans Zimmer Percussion Pro I’d suggest you get LA Modern Percussion, I have both and LAMP is way better. HZ Strings is great but it has so many pops and audio dropouts that get really annoying, but the library itself sounds great.



I would agree if LAMP didn’t machine gun so terribly. Was really excited about this library, purchased it, and was instantly let down by that.


----------



## Tvliesin

josephwmorgan said:


> I would agree if LAMP didn’t machine gun so terribly. Was really excited about this library, purchased it, and was instantly let down by that.


Can you expand? Or PM me if we’re getting too far off the jxl topic. I was dead set on hz perc but now I’m looking at lamp too, I just sent them my student id.


----------



## josephwmorgan

Tvliesin said:


> Can you expand? Or PM me if we’re getting too far off the jxl topic. I was dead set on hz perc but now I’m looking at lamp too, I just sent them my student id.


Yes, slight tangent from the subject here but seeing as this is also a library mixed my AM and will probably often be used in tandem with one another. LAMP sounds fantastic, however in my experience with it I find they did not record enough round robins so I often am getting the same sample over and over if I’m playing a rhythm within one dynamic range. Thus, I’m hearing the same sample over and over creating a “machine gun” effect.


----------



## KEM

josephwmorgan said:


> I would agree if LAMP didn’t machine gun so terribly. Was really excited about this library, purchased it, and was instantly let down by that.



It *can* be an issue, but I’ve found that with a little extra programming it can be avoided. I would suggest using the velocity sensitive mapped keys that are up top and just play everything in, or if you’re programming the rhythms in just make the quantization a little bit off grid, and using the less processed mics can help too. But having used both libraries extensively I definitely prefer LAMP, it gives you a lot more options and I think the sonically quality is overall better. I mainly use HZP for huge hits and downbeats, and LAMP for the more complex rhythms.


----------



## Tvliesin

KEM said:


> It *can* be an issue, but I’ve found that with a little extra programming it can be avoided. I would suggest using the velocity sensitive mapped keys that are up top and just play everything in, or if you’re programming the rhythms in just make the quantization a little bit off grid, and using the less processed mics can help too. But having used both libraries extensively I definitely prefer LAMP, it gives you a lot more options and I think the sonically quality is overall better. I mainly use HZP for huge hits and downbeats, and LAMP for the more complex rhythms.



So basically buy both. *throws wallet in fireplace*


----------



## josephwmorgan

KEM said:


> It *can* be an issue, but I’ve found that with a little extra programming it can be avoided. I would suggest using the velocity sensitive mapped keys that are up top and just play everything in, or if you’re programming the rhythms in just make the quantization a little bit off grid, and using the less processed mics can help too. But having used both libraries extensively I definitely prefer LAMP, it gives you a lot more options and I think the sonically quality is overall better. I mainly use HZP for huge hits and downbeats, and LAMP for the more complex rhythms.



absolutely agree. There ARE workarounds. Just at the price LAMP is it feels like this should never be an issue.


----------



## KEM

josephwmorgan said:


> absolutely agree. There ARE workarounds. Just at the price LAMP is it feels like this should never be an issue.



I can agree, but I’m happy their giving us more content overtime, that makes it alright for me, especially if you can get it at the discounted price. I was just talking to Tvliesin and the best comparison I could make is that LAMP sounds like the percussion in Mad Max, where as HZP sounds more like the percussion in The Dark Knight(for obvious reasons), I think that’s a pretty accurate comparison as to their sonic qualities and intended uses.


----------



## josephwmorgan

KEM said:


> I can agree, but I’m happy their giving us more content overtime, that makes it alright for me, especially if you can get it at the discounted price. I was just talking to Tvliesin and the best comparison I could make is that LAMP sounds like the percussion in Mad Max, where as HZP sounds more like the percussion in The Dark Knight(for obvious reasons), I think that’s a pretty accurate comparison as to their sonic qualities and intended uses.



until OT hopefully does JXL Perc!


----------



## Real JXL

staypuft said:


> How much of an overlap do you think JXLB is if you already have one or more of the following titles:: Berlin Brass, Cinematic Studio Brass, Infinite Brass, BBCSO, Caspian, HWB, Century Brass.
> 
> Please objective comments only....let´s discuss the positive aspects of our current libs compared to what we heard of JB, I think this could prove useful in the final stretch of the preorder campaign.




There will always be overlap... what sets this library apart from any body else is;

-5 dynamic layers for all instruments all sections each articulations 

-No compromise on recordings or takes or cutting corners

-Insane consistency between instruments sections

-lots of articulations are obsolete because the dynamic switching is so smooth within the 5 layers...

-from pppp to ffff .... nobody has it like this library....

AND!!!

More to come!!


----------



## jononotbono

purple said:


> Considering how many awful demos I've heard from this library I'm pleasantly surprised.



"Pleasantly Surprised" haha. I just literally type in the two words "Andy. Blaney". I then know what a library can do.  

Awful demos don't mean a library is bad. It's not unthinkable to think that perhaps the user may be at fault? My politeness knows no bounds.


----------



## Tice

jononotbono said:


> "Pleasantly Surprised" haha. I just literally type in the two words "Andy. Blaney". I then know what a library can do.
> 
> Awful demos don't mean a library is bad. It's not unthinkable to think that perhaps the user may be at fault? My politeness knows no bounds.


This is why the masterclass is such a great idea. Libraries only sound as good as we make 'em sound, so teaching the end user how to use it well is a win-win for everyone involved.


----------



## purple

jononotbono said:


> "Pleasantly Surprised" haha. I just literally type in the two words "Andy. Blaney". I then know what a library can do.
> 
> Awful demos don't mean a library is bad. It's not unthinkable to think that perhaps the user may be at fault? My politeness knows no bounds.


Oh, I agree. I don't always trust user demos unless I know the creator has a good history of demos. My point was that a lot of people who either have no idea how to use a library or just decide to use it non-idiomatically make demos and then start a cycle of people trashing it.


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

Real JXL said:


> There will always be overlap... what sets this library apart from any body else is;
> 
> -5 dynamic layers for all instruments all sections each articulations
> 
> -No compromise on recordings or takes or cutting corners
> 
> -Insane consistency between instruments sections
> 
> -lots of articulations are obsolete because the dynamic switching is so smooth within the 5 layers...
> 
> -from pppp to ffff .... nobody has it like this library....
> 
> AND!!!
> 
> More to come!!



klinkt goed Tom!
Pre-ordered! 😎💪🤘


----------



## AdamKmusic

josephwmorgan said:


> until OT hopefully does JXL Perc!



now that would be an instant purchase


----------



## Benjamin Duk

If JXL Brass is as good as it sounds from the demos, I think everyone would instantly purchase JXL Strings, Woods, Percs and Synths :D


----------



## KEM

Benjamin Duk said:


> If JXL Brass is as good as it sounds from the demos, I think everyone would instantly purchase JXL Strings, Woods, Percs and Synths :D



100% without question


----------



## Zeff

Excited, just pre-ordered this. This will actually be my first library ever purchased!


----------



## Tice

Zeff said:


> Excited, just pre-ordered this. This will actually be my first library ever purchased!


Welcome down the rabbit hole... It's almost as bad as modular synthesis... :D


----------



## ProfoundSilence

meradium said:


> Seriously?  Too much money on your hands?


Or it could be that it simply doesn't make him/her want to make music


----------



## jneebz

OrchestralTools said:


> We just released the 2nd walkthrough
> 
> 
> 
> This walkthrough takes you through each instrument of the Junkie XL Brass library.
> From solo instruments up to sections of 12 players, listen to the highly consistent articulations and legato patches.
> 
> Remember, pre-order includes access to a live masterclass with Junkie XL himself, teaching you how to fully utilize this brass library.
> 
> If you have any questions let us know, and we're working on a Demo as we speak..
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT Team



SON OF A....those horns....OMG


----------



## jneebz

I just A-B'd YouTube demos of CSB and JXL Brass and CSB sounds like it just doesn't have the sheen that JXL has. I realize that may not be a positive thing for everyone, but I LOVE the way JXL opens up in the high mids and high end....anyone else feel that way?


----------



## Gerbil

They do sound great. If I didn't have umpteen other brass libraries I'd be all over this. As it is, I'll wait and see if one day they release these in sections via the store rather than do a big bulk buy. But bravo to all involved. Brilliant stuff.


----------



## axb312

jneebz said:


> I just A-B'd YouTube demos of CSB and JXL Brass and CSB sounds like it just doesn't have the sheen that JXL has. I realize that may not be a positive thing for everyone, but I LOVE the way JXL opens up in the high mids and high end....anyone else feel that way?


CSB is a little darker. Nothing some EQ can't fix imo.


----------



## borisb2

jneebz said:


> I just A-B'd YouTube demos of CSB and JXL Brass and CSB sounds like it just doesn't have the sheen that JXL has. I realize that may not be a positive thing for everyone, but I LOVE the way JXL opens up in the high mids and high end....anyone else feel that way?


Don‘t do it with CSB but with Hollywood Brass. That is soundwise a lot closer. In fact, while listening to the JXL walkthroughs I got inspired to play some similar lines with HWB - and especially the 6 Horns came surprisingly pretty close soundwise, including the smooth transitions from pp to fff fatness


----------



## Andrajas

Just pre-ordered! I'm one of those with not many brass libraries, so really think this will fit perfectly for everything I do


----------



## NoamL

One of these is JXLB and one is CSB. It's up to you to guess!



Maybe I am biased, but these libraries seem pretty close to me.

(The one that I know is JXLB) has a satisfying, wide dynamic range (clearly superior to Berlin Brass). It sounds nice and cinematic. It has a balanced sound across the quartet, even on these super bass notes. The crossfades are smooth and the soundstage is good. It's not AIR or Abbey Road, so it doesn't really blow my socks off, but it works.
(The one that I know is CSB) has the same qualities. I think its soundstage is slightly inferior to JXLB. It's not markedly inferior and unusable, but in the direct A/B I have a preference for Teldex. On the other hand, I already own CSB, and JXLB costs twice as much and doesn't really have features that would make me run out and get it. 
I also happen to think this A/B comparison will only be close on the horns. The low brass of JXLB sounds fantastic, some of the best ensemble low brass out there. And the trumpets... well, maybe I have cloth ears, but they're not attractive to me. Even the trumpets in Berlin sounded better.


----------



## Zero&One

NoamL said:


> I also happen to think this A/B comparison will only be close on the horns.



Nice, and close I agree. Liked the first half of B and second half of A.

Any chance you could slip any other products in the test?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

1.) CSB only goes that hard on the a4 horns. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.(you could say the same for flutter tongue I guess?) 
2.) CSB does not have the same field at all, which becomes more apparent because the sharpness feels more like it's a mono signal rather than a stereo rattle. 
3.) there is a middle layer in JXL that has a lot more golden warmth that CSB just doesn't capture with horns - it's got a dullness. 

Brass doesn't sou nd good in air to me, my two favorite rooms for brass are easily sony and teldex(but that's a preference) To be fair, I also prefer trackdown than air for brass. 

JXLB also has way more dyanmic layers for shorts, and more consistent articulation curves because of it. It doesn't fade to silence unless you want it to. 

JXLB also has more sustain types
JXLB also has more useful "short" durations, than the 4 "slightly different lengths"
JXLB also has 14 instruments, CSB has 8 + an "ensemble" which is really just a sketching patch. 
JXLB also has a mountain of mics, with a new feature to make your own mixes. CSB has 3 and 1 mix.

JXLB is basically all the good things from CSB mostly improved or on par - with the combined benefit of also being able to slay out Ark 1 level brass(or trailer brass).

I'm surprised of all people you're not the one who's all about switching over, especially being able to swap out 4 for 6 horns when needed, or bones to bass bones, 3+1 trumpets rather than 2+1. 

Especially since these two libraries could be set up in parallel and interchangeable for most articulations with minimal EQ to get them to play nice(due to tail lengths being similar)


----------



## ProfoundSilence

James H said:


> Nice, and close I agree. Liked the first half of B and second half of A.
> 
> Any chance you could slip any other products in the test?


I'd rather watch him try to replicate some of the nasty trombone lines with CSB bones.


----------



## NoamL

ProfoundSilence said:


> I'd rather watch him try to replicate some of the nasty trombone lines with CSB bones.



JXLB would easily sound heavier and more massive. CSB has Solo Tenor Trombone, Solo Bass Trombone, Solo Tuba and a2 Tenor Trombone while most of those walkthrough lines were for JXLB's 3 Tenor Trombones, 6 Tenor Trombones, 3 Tenor Trombones or 3 Cimbassi. JXLB has a lot more options for low brass. It also has more ensembles. It's clearly designed with modern post-2000 Hollywood in mind whereas CSB is designed for the older style of partwriting for 2 tenor, bass and tuba that you will hear on classic 70s-90s scores.



ProfoundSilence said:


> Brass doesn't sou nd good in air to me, my two favorite rooms for brass are easily sony and teldex(but that's a preference) To be fair, I also prefer trackdown than air for brass.



I respect your opinion. It's a matter of taste. When listening to the soundtracks I really love and then listening to library walkthroughs, Spitfire excites & inspires me. Teldex and Trackdown are okay (certainly better than the places *I* can afford to record brass right now!!!) but I can't think of one of my favorite scores that was recorded there. Meanwhile for AIR there's a pile. I would love brass recorded in Abbey Road even more.

The other thing is look at the price. I'm not buying any library on preorder, so JXLB would be $830 for me. Meanwhile I spent $270 on Cinematic Studio Brass (and so can anyone else who owns at least one Cinematic Series library, at any time). That's 1/3rd the price. I'm much more likely to get Spitfire Symphonic Brass this Christmas. Supposing it's 40% off it would be only $420. In the end I really do not NEED any other brass library than CSB to get my work done, so if I'm gonna get anything it's about the option of having sounds in a different soundstage (that I probably won't lean on too heavily to do technically challenging writing - I'll always come back to CSB for that).

The other stuff you mentioned is details. JXLB doesn't have "way more" dynamic layers than CSB, it has five and CSB has four. etc.


----------



## shawnsingh

I'd argue that sustained tones, especially when they get loud will not really test anything about the room other than its aggregate frequency response, and EQ can mostly compensate for that. What's more interesting when comparing room tones is how their early reflections sound and how various frequencies resonate/linger/decay over time - i.e. I'd be interested to hear an example with staccatissimos, staccatos and sforzandos? =)


----------



## Zero&One

NoamL said:


> JXLB would easily sound heavier and more massive.



Yeah, I did take this as a horn comparison, and not an all out product comparison test. Just wondered how other horns compared.


----------



## borisb2

NoamL said:


> I also happen to think this A/B comparison will only be close on the horns. The low brass of JXLB sounds fantastic, some of the best ensemble low brass out there. And the trumpets... well, maybe I have cloth ears, but they're not attractive to me. Even the trumpets in Berlin sounded better.


I agree. The low brass in JXLB does sound great. When I heard the vibrato trumpet though I was a bit surprised. What were they thinking?


----------



## staypuft

Alex managed to capture magic at the Trackdown Scoring Stage. Just listen to the official tracks....amazing. Judging from the demos, I´d buy CSB and never look back. In reality most libraries will get cues approved if not for user error. However if you are going for extra realism and expression, JXLB is a worthy investment. The 5 dyn layers and the almost obsessive way shorts were recorded\\edited make JXLB the king of sampled brass to me. For exposed work I´d pick JXL over CSB any day all day....crossfades are very noticeable in CSB. In a full mix either will work if again not for user error.

Something important to keep in mind:: louder doesn´t mean better...it´s just louder, as a compositional tool, an option. I dare to say that it can potentially introduce problems with all that air moving in a room that I´m not sure if it´s suited for that......ok i´ll hide now...Listen to the trumpets on the 2nd walkthrough video, there´s some nasty stuff going on there. Just something to be aware of when working with this library, u´ll need to filter the gunk out.

Crucial stuff I´m missing:: mutes and flutter patches, better vib and AT LEAST one extra soloist for each instrument, recorded with the same finesse and attention to detail as the rest of the library. Tom knows how important these are for film music....don´t try to convince me otherwise :D!!


----------



## KEM

staypuft said:


> thanks.....glad to see you back



Glad to be back lol


----------



## quantum7

OrchestralTools said:


> We just released the 2nd walkthrough




OMG what is that riff at 13:48? It is driving me crazy! I feel like I've played that before, but am having a total 50-year old brain-fart! :(


----------



## staypuft

quantum7 said:


> OMG what is that riff at 13:48? It is driving me crazy! I feel like I've played that before, but am having a total 50-year old brain-fart! :(


Prokofiev!


----------



## Consona

NoamL said:


> and doesn't really have features that would make me run out and get it.


I'm just eagerly waiting to hear how JXLB handles the Wrath of Khan lines and those fast Williams melodies.


----------



## Geocranium

quantum7 said:


> OMG what is that riff at 13:48? It is driving me crazy! I feel like I've played that before, but am having a total 50-year old brain-fart! :(



Prokofiev, though more specifically, _Dance of the Knights_.


----------



## quantum7

Geocranium said:


> Prokofiev, though more specifically, _Dance of the Knights_.





staypuft said:


> Prokofiev!


OMG!!! Very embarrassed because I just did this piece last year. That explains why it was so familiar. Don't turn 50 - mess you up!!!


----------



## Tvliesin

This thread is on fire


----------



## jononotbono

Are we there yet?


----------



## bfreepro

Refreshing my browser every 5 seconds waiting for this thang to drop


----------



## Tvliesin

This will be my first time in my life downloading a 300gb file. My emotions.


----------



## Virtuoso

It will be released 5 mins after I give up waiting and go to bed.


----------



## Zero&One

Virtuoso said:


> It will be released 5 mins after I give up waiting and go to bed.



As they are in Germany I'd say you have at least 5hrs sleep


----------



## Tvliesin

staypuft said:


> Sure however I´ve only used BBC on one track before uninstalling it.



WOW. Great job man.


----------



## brenneisen

quantum7 said:


>




super gremlin-ish, great


----------



## jononotbono

Think I’m starting to get a blister on my “I-Pad finger” from refreshing the OT page so much.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Virtuoso said:


> It will be released 5 mins after I give up waiting and go to bed.


well I can tell you this, last time my preorder email came through was ark 4 at like 2pm EST. 

unforntunely I get off work at 3 am and have to be back by 7pm on monday and I work every day until January 2nd except the 23rd QQ. if I could just get jxlb 12 hours early it would be a Christmas miracle.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

update, I work until 7am today QQ they altered the deal and I pray they dont alter it any further


----------



## purple

I can't wait to religiously follow this thread, hear a lot of bad demos and a couple of amazing demos and then continue to not buy the library because I don't need at the moment. 

To be fair I actually might be able to justify buying it depending on how lucrative my current project is, but I'm sure there are others doing what i described above anyway so I thought I'd say it first.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

purple said:


> I can't wait to religiously follow this thread, hear a lot of bad demos and a couple of amazing demos and then continue to not buy the library because I don't need at the moment.
> 
> To be fair I actually might be able to justify buying it depending on how lucrative my current project is, but I'm sure there are others doing what i described above anyway so I thought I'd say it first.



I think many people will blast the mod wheel through the sun and make a bunch of starwars: attack of the bees covers. 

honestly I'm not going to be surprised if the 4 horns is on par with the recordings at like 35-40% modwheel

I think it's great that it goes full bore, but nobody plays like that for an entire phrase lol


----------



## mralmostpopular

ProfoundSilence said:


> I think many people will blast the mod wheel through the sun and make a bunch of starwars: attack of the bees covers.
> 
> honestly I'm not going to be surprised if the 4 horns is on par with the recordings at like 35-40% modwheel
> 
> I think it's great that it goes full bore, but nobody plays like that for an entire phrase lol



Are the musicians really playing brass if they’re not passing out?


----------



## bfreepro

ProfoundSilence said:


> update, I work until 7am today QQ they altered the deal and I pray they dont alter it any further


how did they alter it?


----------



## Tvliesin

bfreepro said:


> how did they alter it?


They didn’t...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

bfreepro said:


> how did they alter it?


ita a joke, I came in for 4 hours of overtime and when I got here they asked me to stay for 8 lol. I've got 1 day off between now and Jan 1st so I'll have basically no time to play with the library lol


----------



## KEM

ProfoundSilence said:


> ita a joke, I came in for 4 hours of overtime and when I got here they asked me to stay for 8 lol. I've got 1 day off between now and Jan 1st so I'll have basically no time to play with the library lol



Don’t worry, I’ll be putting in the time for you...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

KEM said:


> Don’t worry, I’ll be putting in the time for you...


just got out of the VIC slammer and you're going to end up in solitary confinement with JXLB

I'm actually pumped that i might get to start building a new template with whatever berlin libraries are going to be on sine player. 

I own basically everything from the ark and berlin line.


----------



## bfreepro

ProfoundSilence said:


> ita a joke, I came in for 4 hours of overtime and when I got here they asked me to stay for 8 lol. I've got 1 day off between now and Jan 1st so I'll have basically no time to play with the library lol


Ahhhh I thought you meant OT altered the deal/price or something.


----------



## KEM

ProfoundSilence said:


> just got out of the VIC slammer and you're going to end up in solitary confinement with JXLB
> 
> I'm actually pumped that i might get to start building a new template with whatever berlin libraries are going to be on sine player.
> 
> I own basically everything from the ark and berlin line.



I’m deleting Symphonic Brass and Cinebrass right when I wake up and downloading JXLB lol, need as much hard drive space as I can get


----------



## bfreepro

KEM said:


> I’m deleting Symphonic Brass and Cinebrass right when I wake up and downloading JXLB lol, need as much hard drive space as I can get


Yeah... symphonic brass is history for sure! Luckily I bought another 2tb SSD recently.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

cinebrass is still worth keeping around if you're using JXLB. 

cinebrass and csb will sit with very little fuss, and can be used for divisi(i.e. both a6 horns)

just saying, I moved MSB


----------



## NickDorito

Symphonic Brass? Never heard of it


----------



## borisb2

James H said:


> Yeah, I did take this as a horn comparison, and not an all out product comparison test. Just wondered how other horns compared.


did a quick mockup of the trailer intro with Hollywood Brass and a touch of CSB ..


----------



## Leo

borisb2 said:


> did a quick mockup of the trailer intro with Hollywood Brass ..


thanks, but file do not open


----------



## borisb2

Leo said:


> thanks, but file do not open


should work now


----------



## KEM

ProfoundSilence said:


> cinebrass is still worth keeping around if you're using JXLB.
> 
> cinebrass and csb will sit with very little fuss, and can be used for divisi(i.e. both a6 horns)
> 
> just saying, I moved MSB



Only thing I have from Cinebrass is the 12 horns, and something tells me I won’t be missing it much...


----------



## Benjamin Duk

I somehow have a feeling that they might only release this in the evening 6pm European time or 8am PST closer to Junkie's Youtube talk.


----------



## Eptesicus

borisb2 said:


> did a quick mockup of the trailer intro with Hollywood Brass and a touch of CSB ..



Nice tone.

Lacks some punch that jxl brass has. Also, those quick shorts are a mess in comparison (0.26-0.30)

This kind of echoes my feelings on HWB. I have it and I have always hated the shorts for the most part. I have however always thought sound/tone wise it was great.

I find it to be a bit inconsistent and I hate Play as well. Shame because it can sound good, and has some good patches (trumpet legatos are great).


----------



## borisb2

Eptesicus said:


> Nice tone.
> 
> Lacks some punch that jxl brass has. Also, those quick shorts are a mess in comparison (0.26-0.30)
> 
> This kind of echoes my feelings on HWB. I have it and I have always hated the shorts for the most part. I have however always thought sound/tone wise it was great.
> 
> I find it to be a bit inconsistent and I hate Play as well. Shame because it can sound good, and has some good patches (trumpet legatos are great).


yep .. agreed. Hollywood Brass has its limits .. but as mentioned, tone wise I find it closer to JXLB than CSB


----------



## Zero&One

borisb2 said:


> did a quick mockup of the trailer intro with Hollywood Brass and a touch of CSB ..



Nice! Thanks for that. 
EW Hollywood stuff is remarkable considering it's age. I've still yet to hear it beaten on sound by anything, challenged yes but not beat. I think Play is it's true Archilles Heel.

Are you getting JXL today?


----------



## I like music

James H said:


> Nice! Thanks for that.
> EW Hollywood stuff is remarkable considering it's age. I've still yet to hear it beaten on sound by anything, challenged yes but not beat. I think Play is it's true Archilles Heel.
> 
> Are you getting JXL today?



HWB is crazy good eh? Imagine if they did an update to it ...

Looking fwd to all the JXL demos...


----------



## PeterJCroissant

When does JXB actually get released guys?

best
Pete


----------



## Benjamin Duk

Most likely 8am PST.


----------



## Mike Fox

KEM said:


> I’m deleting Symphonic Brass and Cinebrass right when I wake up and downloading JXLB lol, need as much hard drive space as I can get


Cinebrass is still one of the best sounding brass libraries, imo. The 12 horns and monster low brass are really tough to beat. I don't think i could ever abandoned those.


----------



## Dominik

KEM said:


> If you’re talking about Hans Zimmer Percussion Pro I’d suggest you get LA Modern Percussion, I have both and LAMP is way better. HZ Strings is great but it has so many pops and audio dropouts that get really annoying, but the library itself sounds great.


I have no pops and whatsoever with Hans Zimmer Percussion. I absolutely love it. By the way, there are JXL mixes in there which I much prefer over Alan Meyersons mixes. I never even once have used his mixes of Hans Zimmer Percussion. They sound uninspired and boring IMO.
But I would have loved to have toms in there as well. I can´t say anything about LAMP but I strongly think that it all comes down to personal taste. From what I heard it is not objectively better than HZ Perc. just different.


----------



## Dominik

NoamL said:


> One of these is JXLB and one is CSB. It's up to you to guess!
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I am biased, but these libraries seem pretty close to me.
> 
> (The one that I know is JXLB) has a satisfying, wide dynamic range (clearly superior to Berlin Brass). It sounds nice and cinematic. It has a balanced sound across the quartet, even on these super bass notes. The crossfades are smooth and the soundstage is good. It's not AIR or Abbey Road, so it doesn't really blow my socks off, but it works.
> (The one that I know is CSB) has the same qualities. I think its soundstage is slightly inferior to JXLB. It's not markedly inferior and unusable, but in the direct A/B I have a preference for Teldex. On the other hand, I already own CSB, and JXLB costs twice as much and doesn't really have features that would make me run out and get it.
> I also happen to think this A/B comparison will only be close on the horns. The low brass of JXLB sounds fantastic, some of the best ensemble low brass out there. And the trumpets... well, maybe I have cloth ears, but they're not attractive to me. Even the trumpets in Berlin sounded better.



Thank you for this comparison. I just fail to find the information which is which. I hope JXL Brass is the first example because I preordered it and I don´t like the second example at all. The crossfading is so obvious and unelegant.


----------



## Consona

Mike Fox said:


> Cinebrass is still one of the best sounding brass libraries, imo. The 12 horns and monster low brass are really tough to beat. I don't think i could ever abandoned those.


Yea, the sound is Cinebrass' forte. I like those effect patches as well. Plus those mutes, harmon mutes, flutters, etc.

But I need JXLB for that runs legato.



Dominik said:


> Thank you for this comparison. I just fail to find the information which is which. I hope JXL Brass is the first example because I preordered it and I don´t like the second example at all. The crossfading is so obvious and unelegant.


My guess is, JXLB is indeed the first one. But I don't own CSB, so could be wrong.


----------



## Mike Fox

Consona said:


> Yea, the sound is Cinebrass' forte. I like those effect patches as well. Plus those mutes, harmon mutes, flutters, etc.
> 
> But I need JXLB for that runs legato.



Yes! So much quality content in Cinebrass. The room is really something special too.


----------



## Benjamin Duk

Junkie Live


----------



## Billy Palmer

Dominik said:


> Thank you for this comparison. I just fail to find the information which is which. I hope JXL Brass is the first example because I preordered it and I don´t like the second example at all. The crossfading is so obvious and unelegant.



I'd like to know because I prefer the 2nd (which I reckon is CSB). 
If so, great, I can spend less! (I know that JXL has way more on paper, but if I like the sound, CSB is fine for me!)


----------



## Dominik

William Palmer said:


> I'd like to know because I prefer the 2nd (which I reckon is CSB).
> If so, great, I can spend less! (I know that JXL has way more on paper, but if I like the sound, CSB is fine for me!)


I don´t want to talk you out or into something but the sound can be shaped to a certain extend. I think soundwise the examples are both good. But to evaluate the sound of the room you need to hear the short articulations. If you are not sure yet, compare them.


----------



## Billy Palmer

Dominik said:


> I don´t want to talk you out or into something but the sound can be shaped to a certain extend. I think soundwise the examples are both good. But to evaluate the sound of the room you need to hear the short articulations. If you are not sure yet, compare them.



I will, I'm waiting until JXL is out in the wild before buying anyway. I like seeing what Inspector Vi has to say first.


----------



## nas

I basically have never jumped on a pre-order for a library but based on what I've been hearing in the walkthroughs and OT's previous libraries... some of which I own, I jumped on this and took the plunge. I'm guessing this library and the new SINE player are going to be something pretty amazing. Now I just need to find some SSD space to download this monster!


----------



## NoamL

Oh, just realized I never revealed that @Dominik @William Palmer . The first is CSB, second is JXLB ripped from Walkthrough 2 @ 5:35.

As I mentioned, I think they sound pretty interchangeable here, this is one of the few easy points of comparison though. They're different products in many ways. This single example shouldn't decide what you buy. The different features like which instruments are sampled, how the legato and shorts sound to you, etc should be decisive. I just made this demo because I kept reading people saying "the sound is so much better than CSB!" and wanted to see how different the soundstages sound.


----------



## MarcusD

Quick question (sorry if this has already been answered) - Will the new Sine player use a different file format which requires us to re-download existing libraries, in a new format, to work with Sine?


----------



## NickDorito

It's coming out December 16th this year right?


----------



## synergy543

It looks like realistic real-time double-tonguing and triple-tonguing will be a performance challenge. It appears these really need to be programmed using multiple arts? (stac-stac-marcato?)


----------



## esmooov

synergy543 said:


> It looks like realistic real-time double-tonguing and triple-tonguing will be a performance challenge. It appears these really need to be programmed using multiple arts? (stac-stac-marcato?)



It would be cool if, in addition to velocity/cc mapping through the articulation "pie chart", you could map them based on n-th keypress. This would let you load a patch in which the first and second keypress is always stac and the third is marcato, essentially creating a new triple tongue articulation.


----------



## Hadrondrift

NickDorito said:


> It's coming out December 16th this year right?


It is 7:45 am in Tahiti right now.


----------



## synergy543

esmooov said:


> It would be cool if, in addition to velocity/cc mapping through the articulation "pie chart", you could map them based on n-th keypress. This would let you load a patch in which the first and second keypress is always stac and the third is marcato, essentially creating a new triple tongue articulation.


It would also be cool of SINE player allowed you to select an option for "fake" RR so you don't have to detune, and re-program notes etc. Hendrick?


----------



## shawnsingh

esmooov said:


> It would be cool if, in addition to velocity/cc mapping through the articulation "pie chart", you could map them n-th keypress. This would let you load a patch in which the first and second keypress is always stac and the third is marcato, essentially creating a new triple tongue articulation.



Wow, I love this idea! More generally some ability to use poly maps to create keyswitches for phrasing, not just for articulations!

and to reset the Nth note status, maybe it could be set up so that you can just press the keyswitch again to reset it.


----------



## SZK-Max

The audio demo has been updated silently in OT site.


----------



## Nils Neumann

Hello fellow composers,
I had the opportunity of working with the JXL library prior to the release and write an official demo for Orchestral Tools. I feel very honored that this track is shared alongside Tom Holkenborg and Alex Pfeffer's work.


----------



## axb312

NoamL said:


> Oh, just realized I never revealed that @Dominik @William Palmer . The first is CSB, second is JXLB ripped from Walkthrough 2 @ 5:35.
> 
> As I mentioned, I think they sound pretty interchangeable here, this is one of the few easy points of comparison though. They're different products in many ways. This single example shouldn't decide what you buy. The different features like which instruments are sampled, how the legato and shorts sound to you, etc should be decisive. I just made this demo because I kept reading people saying "the sound is so much better than CSB!" and wanted to see how different the soundstages sound.



Tell me you ordered JXL Brass then


----------



## Eptesicus

God damn the shorts are tight (no pun intended)


----------



## shawnsingh

Nils Neumann said:


> Hello fellow composers,
> I had the opportunity of working with the JXL library prior to the release and write an official demo for Orchestral Tools. I feel very honored that this track is shared alongside Tom Holkenborg and Alex Pfeffer's work.




Section from 2:22 to 3:27 especially compelling, love it! And the key change at 3:06 was just plain gratifying. Felt like I was hanging for dear life onto a flying dragon that was dodging fireballs and dipping in and out of clouds.


----------



## Eptesicus

Just listened to most of the demos.

Do you know what is weird? I found that the strings and woodwind in most of them sounded rubbish/fake!

Is JXL Brass so good/well recorded that it makes everything else sound worse? lol.

For example i found that on the Lord of the Last Revolution track, the brass sounds amazing, but the strings and woodwind sound very unconvincing.


----------



## axb312

Eptesicus said:


> Just listened to most of the demos.
> 
> Do you know what is weird? I found that the strings and woodwind in most of them sounded rubbish/fake!
> 
> Is JXL Brass so good/well recorded that it makes everything else sound worse? lol.
> 
> For example i found that on the Lord of the Last Revolution track, the brass sounds amazing, but the strings and woodwind sound very unconvincing.



Perhaps the demos were rushed so the brass was polished but everything else not so much?


----------



## Eptesicus

axb312 said:


> Perhaps the demos were rushed so the brass was polished but everything else not so much?



Quite possible. I guess much more time has been put into the brass than the rest for a brass library demo


----------



## staypuft

The sound in all demos is too hyped and processed.....did people forget how real brass sound like? come on

The only track other than Tom´s that I could listen from beginning to end is the @Nils Neumann one which ironically is the last on the list. Great writing Nils! OT 🤦‍♂️

If I didn´t know that JXLB can sound a billion times better, I would be very worried right now.


----------



## Dominik

NoamL said:


> Oh, just realized I never revealed that @Dominik @William Palmer . The first is CSB, second is JXLB ripped from Walkthrough 2 @ 5:35.
> 
> As I mentioned, I think they sound pretty interchangeable here, this is one of the few easy points of comparison though. They're different products in many ways. This single example shouldn't decide what you buy. The different features like which instruments are sampled, how the legato and shorts sound to you, etc should be decisive. I just made this demo because I kept reading people saying "the sound is so much better than CSB!" and wanted to see how different the soundstages sound.


well than lets see. If I am right with my evaluation about the cross fading JXLB doesn´t live up to what OT claims. But there are work arounds for many things and every library has its strong points.
Thank you!


----------



## Architekton

NoamL said:


> One of these is JXLB and one is CSB. It's up to you to guess!
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I am biased, but these libraries seem pretty close to me.
> 
> (The one that I know is JXLB) has a satisfying, wide dynamic range (clearly superior to Berlin Brass). It sounds nice and cinematic. It has a balanced sound across the quartet, even on these super bass notes. The crossfades are smooth and the soundstage is good. It's not AIR or Abbey Road, so it doesn't really blow my socks off, but it works.
> (The one that I know is CSB) has the same qualities. I think its soundstage is slightly inferior to JXLB. It's not markedly inferior and unusable, but in the direct A/B I have a preference for Teldex. On the other hand, I already own CSB, and JXLB costs twice as much and doesn't really have features that would make me run out and get it.
> I also happen to think this A/B comparison will only be close on the horns. The low brass of JXLB sounds fantastic, some of the best ensemble low brass out there. And the trumpets... well, maybe I have cloth ears, but they're not attractive to me. Even the trumpets in Berlin sounded better.




Both sound great. A is CSB or...?


----------



## Eptesicus

staypuft said:


> The sound in all demos is too hyped and processed.....did people forget how real brass sound like? come on
> 
> The only track other than Tom´s that I could listen from beginning to end is the @Nils Neumann one which ironically is the last on the list. Great writing Nils! OT 🤦‍♂️
> 
> If I didn´t know that JXLB can sound a billion times better, I would be very worried right now.




Agreed. Tom's and Nils' are the best.


----------



## borisb2

Eptesicus said:


> I guess much more time has been put into the brass than the rest for a brass library demo



Could be called marketing 😋👍...

Or they really needed to rush


----------



## Eptesicus

NoamL said:


> One of these is JXLB and one is CSB. It's up to you to guess!
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I am biased, but these libraries seem pretty close to me.
> 
> (The one that I know is JXLB) has a satisfying, wide dynamic range (clearly superior to Berlin Brass). It sounds nice and cinematic. It has a balanced sound across the quartet, even on these super bass notes. The crossfades are smooth and the soundstage is good. It's not AIR or Abbey Road, so it doesn't really blow my socks off, but it works.
> (The one that I know is CSB) has the same qualities. I think its soundstage is slightly inferior to JXLB. It's not markedly inferior and unusable, but in the direct A/B I have a preference for Teldex. On the other hand, I already own CSB, and JXLB costs twice as much and doesn't really have features that would make me run out and get it.
> I also happen to think this A/B comparison will only be close on the horns. The low brass of JXLB sounds fantastic, some of the best ensemble low brass out there. And the trumpets... well, maybe I have cloth ears, but they're not attractive to me. Even the trumpets in Berlin sounded better.




The first one has a more "muffled" quality to it. It isn't immediately noticeable but if you play them as the high dynamics start coming in on one and then play the end on the other straight after, the second one has a lot more clarity to it.

Its difficult to describe but the second one sounds more raw/pure.


----------



## gjelul

Personally would have loved to hear a JXL Brass demo by OT's Sacha K. 
His demos for OT are great and really do justice to the demoed product.

The one demo that still makes the difference is JXL's brass demo (maybe, the only one they should have released.) 

I am not sure what's up with these other demos, but for some reason I am not impressed at all.


----------



## Architekton

Nils Neumann said:


> Hello fellow composers,
> I had the opportunity of working with the JXL library prior to the release and write an official demo for Orchestral Tools. I feel very honored that this track is shared alongside Tom Holkenborg and Alex Pfeffer's work.




JXL Brass really does sound great, regarding composition, so much things happen that I dont know what to listen, a big mess, sorry. JXL Brass really stands out in this mix, more pronounced compared to strings and woodwinds (which I had very hard time to hear properly)...is it because you focused more on Brass to be exposed in the mix or both ww and strings sound badly recorded as sample libraries compared to JXL brass?


----------



## KEM

Dominik said:


> I have no pops and whatsoever with Hans Zimmer Percussion. I absolutely love it. By the way, there are JXL mixes in there which I much prefer over Alan Meyersons mixes. I never even once have used his mixes of Hans Zimmer Percussion. They sound uninspired and boring IMO.
> But I would have loved to have toms in there as well. I can´t say anything about LAMP but I strongly think that it all comes down to personal taste. From what I heard it is not objectively better than HZ Perc. just different.



I get pops from HZ Strings, not HZ Perc, I think it’s their engine that causes it, if it was in Kontakt I doubt I’d have any issues, and yeah I use the JXL mixes in HZ Perc, they sound great, I just like LAMP better.


----------



## Chungus

After listening to all of the JXL demos thrice and listening to the BB demos for good measure after that, I'm glad I didn't pre-order JXLB. The low brass in JXL sounds good, (if greatly over-blown at times) but I find the trumpets sound horrendous.

Over-all, the sound of BB is much more up my alley.


----------



## John R Wilson

Chungus said:


> After listening to all of the JXL demos thrice and listening to the BB demos for good measure after that, I'm glad I didn't pre-order JXLB. The low brass in JXL sounds good, (if greatly over-blown at times) but I find the trumpets sound horrendous.
> 
> Over-all, the sound of BB is much more up my alley.



I agree with this, the brass doesn't sound that good to me in the demos. It sounds a little to processed and fake sounding. However, I may be wrong and it might end up being a great brass library.


----------



## NickDorito

"We’ve decided to postpone the release of Junkie XL Brass and the SINE player until Tuesday, December 17 due to an online connection issue. We need a few additional hours to solve this and ensure a proper download experience. The pre-order price and masterclass offer will be extended. Thank you for your patience!"

It's over...


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey everyone,

We’ve decided to postpone the release of Junkie XL Brass and the SINE player until tomorrow.

Although the player and library are ready to go, we discovered an online connection issue during final testing today. We need a few additional hours to solve this and ensure a proper download experience.

On the plus side, the pre-order price and masterclass offer will be extended until tomorrow’s release.We hope you understand this decision.
Thank you for your patience, and we’re looking forward to releasing Junkie XL Brass and SINE tomorrow.

Best,

OT Team


----------



## Nils Neumann

Architekton said:


> JXL Brass really stands out in this mix, more pronounced compared to strings and woodwinds (which I had very hard time to hear properly)...is it because you focused more on Brass to be exposed in the mix or both ww and strings sound badly recorded as sample libraries compared to JXL brass?



I mean there are 12 Horns, 6 Trumpets, 12 Trombones, 3 Bass Trombones, 3 Chimbasso and Contrabass Tuba. Would be kinda weird hearing the little woodwinds section right in your face? But believe me, you hear when the Clarinets doubling the Trombones are gone.

And yes I pushed JXL 1,5 db higher than I normally would have done. 



Architekton said:


> JXL Brass really does sound great, regarding composition, so much things happen that I dont know what to listen, a big mess, sorry.



I know, a little messy. I just love John Powell too much to drop that


----------



## Dominik

gjelul said:


> Personally would have loved to hear a JXL Brass demo by OT's Sacha K.
> His demos for OT are great and really do justice to the demoed product.
> 
> The one demo that still makes the difference is JXL's brass demo (maybe, the only one they should have released.)
> 
> I am not sure what's up with these other demos, but for some reason I am not impressed at all.


I never hear demos before buying a library. My worst purchases were because of great sounding demos for actually inferior libraries. I also heard bad demos for libraries I really like. It´s just too personal and often mixed with other stuff and processed. Walkthroughs are way better for me to judge a library. But I have to say that even the second walkthrough was not very enlightening for me. In my oppinion, OT has to work on that still. I preordered anyway.


----------



## Nils Neumann

staypuft said:


> The sound in all demos is too hyped and processed.....did people forget how real brass sound like? come on
> 
> The only track other than Tom´s that I could listen from beginning to end is the @Nils Neumann one which ironically is the last on the list. Great writing Nils! OT 🤦‍♂️
> 
> If I didn´t know that JXLB can sound a billion times better, I would be very worried right now.





Eptesicus said:


> Agreed. Tom's and Nils' are the best.



Very flattering, thank you!


----------



## Dominik

Chungus said:


> After listening to all of the JXL demos thrice and listening to the BB demos for good measure after that, I'm glad I didn't pre-order JXLB. The low brass in JXL sounds good, (if greatly over-blown at times) but I find the trumpets sound horrendous.
> 
> Over-all, the sound of BB is much more up my alley.


I own Berlin Brass. I can attest a good sound but especially the trumpets are only going as high up as MF in the sustains and legato patches. You will have to settle for the marcato patches if you want bright trumpets. It makes writing for trumpets very annoying. But if you don´t care about that, having the individual players is definitely a very nice thing to have, especially if you recreate classical music.


----------



## Dominik

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> We’ve decided to postpone the release of Junkie XL Brass and the SINE player until tomorrow.
> 
> Although the player and library are ready to go, we discovered an online connection issue during final testing today. We need a few additional hours to solve this and ensure a proper download experience.
> 
> On the plus side, the pre-order price and masterclass offer will be extended until tomorrow’s release.We hope you understand this decision.
> Thank you for your patience, and we’re looking forward to releasing Junkie XL Brass and SINE tomorrow.
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT Team


will we be informed via email?
p.s. take your time


----------



## OrchestralTools

Dominik said:


> will we be informed via email?
> p.s. take your time


Hey Dominik,

Yes everyone who pre-ordered will be informed via email when we go live tomorrow.
And thanks so much for your patience 

Best,

OT


----------



## John R Wilson

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey Dominik,
> 
> Yes everyone who pre-ordered will be informed via email when we go live tomorrow.
> And thanks so much for your patience
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT



Will you be introducing any bundle pricing for libraries such as the arks and inspires series in the SINE player store tomorrow?


----------



## gjelul

Dominik said:


> I never hear demos before buying a library. My worst purchases were because of great sounding demos for actually inferior libraries. I also heard bad demos for libraries I really like. It´s just too personal and often mixed with other stuff and processed. Walkthroughs are way better for me to judge a library. But I have to say that even the second walkthrough was not very enlightening for me. In my oppinion, OT has to work on that still. I preordered anyway.





Tom's demo and the Walkthrough 2 kind of cleared the air in regards to the issues that most of us were having with the initial material released. All these other demos now display a lot of those initial issues.

None of the OT prior product demos or walkthroughs sound as mediocre as these ones - I'm referring to the production side of the demos and not judging the writing. Maybe OT is working around the clock to meet the release date and so on and these promo materials did not go through the same QC process as with the other promo products they've released. If that's the case, then just release the one demo that is the best in every aspect.

I have pre-ordered as well.


----------



## NoamL

All of these demos reinforce the same strange gradient impression for me. The lower the instrument, the more impressively cinematic and useful it sounds. Agree with @AlexRuger that the tuba is a standout. Suppose that you just landed a gig that needed lots of that huge brass and you would in other circumstances be looking at Albion 3 or Musical Sampling Trailer Brass, buying just the trombones and tuba from JXLB could be an even better option. You gotta stand in awe at the number of choices here including the ability to write true divisi for TWELVE TROMBONES! What the heck! This truly takes low brass sampling to a new level of options. By contrast the horn sounds aren't really markedly better or worse than what I own, and the trumpets aren't really doin' it for me. Overall it's a library that goes firmly on my "If you get Gig X, make sure to buy Library Y before you start" list.


----------



## Noeticus

Nils Neumann said:


> Hello fellow composers,
> I had the opportunity of working with the JXL library prior to the release and write an official demo for Orchestral Tools. I feel very honored that this track is shared alongside Tom Holkenborg and Alex Pfeffer's work.




Your work here is through-the-roof momumental!

Your are a genius!!!


----------



## purple

Yikes... To be honest the demos are kind of turning me off. OT usually puts up demos that sound like they were made by someone who has actually studied music. Kind of disappointed in this overhyped "epic" sounding stuff that can be done with any brass library really. The last one is nice, but not my style. I really wish they'd just do some mahler or something as a demo....


The JXL ones are good too, but we've heard those before.


----------



## borisb2

James H said:


> Are you getting JXL today?



No, not at the moment. I figured, I'm covered pretty well with HWB, CSB and Cinebrass .. its a strong combo .. looking at Berlin Strings instead ..ok, thats completely OT (off topic, not Orchestral Tools )


----------



## shawnsingh

@Nils Neumann - Listening to your demo again, the trumpets seem to be located in a more traditional orchestra location. Is this a property of any of the mic positions without panning? Or did you use ORTF + panning to locate the trumpets?

Would you please be willing to elaborate more about how you mixed the mic positions, panning, and any additional reverbs? But if you cannot share that information, no problem at all.

I'm interested in using this with Berlin Brass. From other demos it seems like solo trombones and horns will be basically in situ in a similar panning position. But the trumpet, I couldn't tell, it seems like it will be more centered. The walkthrough #2 mentions those excerpts are using the AMXL tree only. So this is why I am asking


----------



## Olfirf

Hearing the demos convinces me not to buy JXL Brass. It may be due the quality of the demos themselves, of course, but I don't think that is the case - at least not for the major part! These demos just show a Brass library without the slightest transparency that would be needed for a realistic orchestration. That in itself wouldn't be a problem, if they were sold as a "hybrid sound library" for hyped music styles like trailer. But they were sold as a versatile and "true" orchestral library. I cannot hear that in any of the demos. Yeah, sure! There are some quiet parts and one demo deliberately tries to go into another direction. But all of these demos share some unpleasant tone that just tells me - don't buy me. Today, I would still go for Berlin Brass before this one, even though it has its own problems like a lack of dynamic layers and inconsistency. Maybe, the middle ground between Berlin Brass and this would be the ideal library ... Berlin Brass with just 1-2 additional dynamic layers per instrument, leaving out the 12-Horn patch or the 6 trumpet patch. But I guess, that would rather be the JW-Brass, not the JXL-Brass ...


----------



## alfred tapscott

I must say...I preordered cause the long walkthrough seemed good to me, but....guys, listening to those demos is making me have lots of 2nd thoughts about if it was really worth it. I do have hollywood brass, CSB, BBCSO (even though I'm about to erase the entire brass of that one)...I guess to have those massive patches for when clients call for the HZ big thing it'll be useful. Same happened with BBC...lots of hype around, was expecting something that'd really replace most of the stuff in the template and at the end...some strings, some wws, and timpani/harp/cromatics is what I'm using from there, but not really most of the thing. Would love to hear a demo that tries to sound realistic or make the library sound well (Andy Blaney should get some royalties on BBCSO sells, really). Let's see when we get it tomorrow...


----------



## Eptesicus

alfred tapscott said:


> I must say...I preordered cause the long walkthrough seemed good to me, but....guys, listening to those demos is making me have lots of 2nd thoughts about if it was really worth it. I do have hollywood brass, CSB, BBCSO (even though I'm about to erase the entire brass of that one)...I guess to have those massive patches for when clients call for the HZ big thing it'll be useful. Same happened with BBC...lots of hype around, was expecting something that'd really replace most of the stuff in the template and at the end...some strings, some wws, and timpani/harp/cromatics is what I'm using from there, but not really most of the thing. Would love to hear a demo that tries to sound realistic or make the library sound well (Andy Blaney should get some royalties on BBCSO sells, really). Let's see when we get it tomorrow...



Does Tom's demo not do it for you? I think that sounds amazing. I agree, that most of the demos aren't that great though....which seems unlike Orchestral Tools.


----------



## borisb2

alfred tapscott said:


> BBCSO (even though I'm about to erase the entire brass of that one)


but then you won't have a coherent orchestral experience


----------



## alfred tapscott

Eptesicus said:


> Does Tom's demo not do it for you? I think that sounds amazing. I agree, that most of the demos aren't that great though....which seems unlike Orchestral Tools.


it's the best one yes...but still a lot of blocky midi fanfare thing, no nice transitions, very detached and not a great legato in my opinion. I mean...it sounds nice but doesn't leave much the realm of midi mockup, for me.

I do a lot of medium budget movies (supersmall for LA standards, of course). When you don't get 300k to record an orchestra, and you have 20k to spend maybe recording in budapest, you know you'll have pretty ok strings but not great brass, and sometimes deciding between that brass and using midi becomes a tough decision. Just listen to Anthony Willis really nice score for this new How to train your dragon thing. Great strings done in London, but the brass is really saying "hey, I'm fake .

JXL won't have that problem, just needs a nice sounding mockup and expensive LA players will do the rest. But us, "mid class composers" do deal with this, and we just hope for things that really sound real, that's why we get so picky. I do appreciate, though, the effort and care you've put into it!, @OrchestralTools and @Real JXL . I don't want to seem harsch! but...I don't seem to hear a really nice shining demo...trying to make it sound really real. At least spitfire really fooled us all with BBC!. hehe

Of course, though, we have the best libraries we've ever had! so...we're getting better! At some point we won't really hear the difference, which will be good and sad at the same time.

just my humble opinion...


----------



## alfred tapscott

borisb2 said:


> but then you won't have a coherent orchestral experience


I can't understand...were brass players in those sessions asleep when somebody asked for fff??

a coherent pppp experience I believe


----------



## Tice

Can I just break a lance for the people who have been making demos here? Really getting to know a library and becoming good at composing with it, using it's strengths and circumventing it's weaknesses, takes months! (If not years).
I can't honestly expect early demos like this to be getting the most out of this library. And given how quickly they were made honestly I'm impressed.
In truth the walkthroughs tell me more of what I want to know about the library than the demos do, unless maybe Blaney gets his hands on them for about half a year. But to expect more doesn't seem any kind of fair to me.


----------



## Eptesicus

alfred tapscott said:


> it's the best one yes...but still a lot of blocky midi fanfare thing, no nice transitions, very detached and not a great legato in my opinion. I mean...it sounds nice but doesn't leave much the realm of midi mockup, for me.
> 
> I do a lot of medium budget movies (supersmall for LA standards, of course). When you don't get 300k to record an orchestra, and you have 20k to spend maybe recording in budapest, you know you'll have pretty ok strings but not great brass, and sometimes deciding between that brass and using midi becomes a tough decision. Just listen to Anthony Willis really nice score for this new How to train your dragon thing. Great strings done in London, but the brass is really saying "hey, I'm fake .
> 
> JXL won't have that problem, just needs a nice sounding mockup and expensive LA players will do the rest. But us, "mid class composers" do deal with this, and we just hope for things that really sound real, that's why we get so picky. I do appreciate, though, the effort and care you've put into it!, @OrchestralTools and @Real JXL .
> 
> Of course, though, we have the best libraries we've ever had! so...we're getting better! At some point we won't really hear the difference, which will be good and sad at the same time.
> 
> just my humble opinion...



I agree it isnt 100% and gives the game away on a couple of occasions. But honestly, it is pretty damn good.

I actually think it copes with the really short fanfare type stuff very well and pretty convincingly.

Also, in most of the demos (including Tom's), the brass still sounds more realistic than the strings and winds.

The biggest annoyance, is that no company has really been able to get string and woodwind runs right yet. Runs are the absolute biggest tell in any mock up. They still just sounds so fake.


----------



## alfred tapscott

borisb2 said:


> but then you won't have a coherent orchestral experience


were the brass players asleep when somebody asked for fff in those sessions?? Can't understand...


----------



## nas

From what I've heard so far in the walkthroughs and on the SINE videos, this library offers a lot of tonal shaping options with respect to the unprocessed samples, extensive mic positions, as well as some of the additional sculpting of the envelopes releases, round robins, etc. There also seems to be quite a dynamic range in all the instruments - in particular I was very impressed with the piano - piano pianissimo range. The softer samples sound gorgeous. 

It's possible that the demos that some have gotten an unfavorable impression of may be using a more processed mix or mic combinations that don't necessarily reflect their own aesthetic. 

So I think once we have a chance to get this library under our fingers and learn what the new SINE player can do, we'll really have a better idea of the range of this library. Every library takes a little time to discover and to get to know what's under the hood... and in time you start to find each instrument's sweet spot and where it shines. There are a lot of options on offer and I don't think this a one trick pony. 

I would reserve final judgment until this time and not be too discouraged if you hear something you don't like - it's still early folks, give it a chance and try it for yourself.


----------



## purple

I think at this point I am honestly more excited for Berlin Brass and other older libraries being available for SINE if it is as powerful as it seems to be in the walkthroughs. Let us also remember that OT libraries will soon be available a la carte anyways...


----------



## brenneisen

Tice said:


> Really getting to know a library and becoming good at composing with it, using it's strengths and circumventing it's weaknesses, takes months! (If not years).



nah, not if you have skills


----------



## TintoL

Tom demos are great. 

But, just like someone said here, the compositions that used extensive string and woodwind runs really show the lack of realism. The rest sounds good. 

I am guessing those are berlin strings and ot string runs?

Man that's were old sf sable is great... Runs.


----------



## Burkhard

In my humble opinion this is the most realistic sound I have heard in a brass library. I agree that some of the demos are way over the top. But I think it's the current FFF hysteria. I am not a brass player but these very long FFF notes are just unnatural and sound fake to me. What I love about brass are the short blasts - and the short notes from JXL brass sound excellent to me. The staccatissimos from Walkthrough #2 convinced me that we don't need any sampled repetitions in that library.

What I am a little concerned about are the tuning / intonation issues I hear in the trumpets and less in the trombones a3 (again referring to Walkthrough #2). But I hope that I am too picky on those and it won't matter in a mix. Maybe I am overconscious about the tuning topic because I own Spitfire Symphonic Brass which has some bad tuning issues which totally annoys me.


----------



## jacobthestupendous

Where are Sasha Knorr, Benny Oschmann, Ben Botkin, and Blakus?


----------



## Craig Sharmat

alfred tapscott said:


> I must say...I preordered cause the long walkthrough seemed good to me, but....guys, listening to those demos is making me have lots of 2nd thoughts about if it was really worth it. I do have hollywood brass, CSB, BBCSO (even though I'm about to erase the entire brass of that one)...I guess to have those massive patches for when clients call for the HZ big thing it'll be useful. Same happened with BBC...lots of hype around, was expecting something that'd really replace most of the stuff in the template and at the end...some strings, some wws, and timpani/harp/cromatics is what I'm using from there, but not really most of the thing. Would love to hear a demo that tries to sound realistic or make the library sound well (Andy Blaney should get some royalties on BBCSO sells, really). Let's see when we get it tomorrow...



Hi Alfred,

You may have not have liked my demo (I usually go in a different direction on my demos figuring others will cover the bombastic stuff) but I think you will be quite pleased when you get it tomorrow. The player works great and the instruments respond really well once you you know the articulations.

Best

Craig


----------



## Tilt & Flow

Craig Sharmat said:


> Hi Alfred,
> 
> You may have not have liked my demo (I usually go in a different direction on my demos figuring others will cover the bombastic stuff) but I think you will be quite pleased when you get it tomorrow. The player works great and the instruments respond really well once you you know the articulations.
> 
> Best
> 
> Craig


Craig - others can differ, but I DID enjoy your demo!


----------



## Fever Phoenix

man.. hard.. I am going back and forth if I should jump in while the pre-sale still lasts.. 

so many what if''s..


----------



## Fever Phoenix

it sounds so.. bright?


----------



## gjelul

alfred tapscott said:


> I must say...I preordered cause the long walkthrough seemed good to me, but....guys, listening to those demos is making me have lots of 2nd thoughts about if it was really worth it. I do have hollywood brass, CSB, BBCSO (even though I'm about to erase the entire brass of that one)...I guess to have those massive patches for when clients call for the HZ big thing it'll be useful. Same happened with BBC...lots of hype around, was expecting something that'd really replace most of the stuff in the template and at the end...some strings, some wws, and timpani/harp/cromatics is what I'm using from there, but not really most of the thing. Would love to hear a demo that tries to sound realistic or make the library sound well (Andy Blaney should get some royalties on BBCSO sells, really). Let's see when we get it tomorrow...




+1 on the above.

I do like a lot of the 'on-paper' specs the library offers. Add to this Tom's impressive involvement, Sine and price = why not?

But then, there is the demos they've released that are very average to say the least. There is moments when I hear these tracks and my only concern is HardDrive space the library will take in my computer 

I did get it yesterday. Today I am thinking more and more that this will be an addition to Berlin Brass and fill the holes that that one has. BB as the main / core + JXL Brs a6, a8, a12, etc. should do it (again 'on-paper') as both were recorded at Teldex. 

As a brass player I can tell you that the timbre of a Tpt for example, will not be naturally loud if you're trying to sample F-F-F-F. What I know is that we have MF-Mezzo Forte, F=Forte, FF=Fortissimo and FFF=Fortississimo. Above that, one should not look at inventing dynamics, but should look at orchestration techniques. Or, if you're venturing outside the regular register / dynamic range of the instrument, then you're on a 'sound design'-ish realm.

Tom has mentioned it though, he uses 12 horns in his scores. This library is close to how he writes and the orchestras he has at his disposal.

For the rest of us (middle class composers ,) Berlin Brass (especially if there is an improved and updated BB v2) would be a very good starting point. 

I am hoping the library will pleasantly surprise me tomorrow


----------



## Fever Phoenix

gjelul said:


> BB as the main / core + JXL Brs a6, a8, a12, etc. should do it (again 'on-paper') as both were recorded





gjelul said:


> +1 on the above.
> 
> I do like a lot of the 'on-paper' specs the library offers. Add to this Tom's impressive involvement, Sine and price = why not?
> 
> But then, there is the demos they've released that are very average to say the least. There is moments when I hear these tracks and my only concern is HardDrive space the library will take in my computer
> 
> I did get it yesterday. Today I am thinking more and more that this will be an addition to Berlin Brass and fill the holes that that one has. BB as the main / core + JXL Brs a6, a8, a12, etc. should do it (again 'on-paper') as both were recorded at Teldex.
> 
> As a brass player I can tell you that the timbre of a Tpt for example, will not be naturally loud if you're trying to sample F-F-F-F. What I know is that we have MF-Mezzo Forte, F=Forte, FF=Fortissimo and FFF=Fortississimo. Above that, one should not look at inventing dynamics, but should look at orchestration techniques. Or, if you're venturing outside the regular register / dynamic range of the instrument, then you're on a 'sound design'-ish realm.
> 
> Tom has mentioned it though, he uses 12 horns in his scores. This library is close to how he writes and the orchestras he has at his disposal.
> 
> For the rest of us (middle class composers ,) Berlin Brass (especially if there is an improved and updated BB v2) would be a very good starting point.
> 
> I am hoping the library will pleasantly surprise me tomorrow



very helpful inputs there..

I think I will pass for now and see what people say once it is out.

Many aspects, especially with the sine player, look very promising.


----------



## gjelul

Craig Sharmat said:


> Hi Alfred,
> 
> You may have not have liked my demo (I usually go in a different direction on my demos figuring others will cover the bombastic stuff) but I think you will be quite pleased when you get it tomorrow. The player works great and the instruments respond really well once you you know the articulations.
> 
> Best
> 
> Craig




Hi Craig,

A pre-emptive comment here 

I did mention the demos too, same as Alfred. And I am not impressed either. However, my opinion has nothing to do with the writing or the composition, I cannot judge that. My comments are strictly referring to the sound of the library as presented on those demos.


----------



## Bernard Duc

I will do a classical mockup as soon as I have installed the library, maybe some Mahler. Hopefully it will be useful to prospective buyers.


----------



## synergy543

shawnsingh said:


> Wow, I love this idea! More generally some ability to use poly maps to create keyswitches for phrasing, not just for articulations!
> 
> and to reset the Nth note status, maybe it could be set up so that you can just press the keyswitch again to reset it.



It would be cool if the SINE player could also play tempo-synced "fake" double and triple-tongue notes with staccatissimo and staccato followed by a marcato on the next note. 

This would give the most possible realistic double and triple tonguing that otherwise would be extremely hard to play (and simultaneously key switch). And as it is, having to program each of these is rather tedious and time-consuming.


----------



## purple

Bernard Duc said:


> I will do a classical mockup as soon as I have installed the library, maybe some Mahler. Hopefully it will be useful to prospective buyers.


I think Mahler excerpts should be required as demos for any new brass library before it can be allowed to be released.


----------



## Fever Phoenix

purple said:


> I think Mahler excerpts should be required as demos for any new brass library before it can be allowed to be released.


unfortunatly there's no hell yeah emoticon to react to your post 🔥


----------



## JF

purple said:


> I think Mahler excerpts should be required as demos for any new brass library before it can be allowed to be released.


I'm working on some excerpts... will replace with JXL brass when released.


----------



## composingkeys

Anybody have opinions on how the legato sounds compared to other libraries out there? Are the interval transitions smooth? The 5 velocity levels sound good but are there round robins?


----------



## Drundfunk

alfred tapscott said:


> I must say...I preordered cause the long walkthrough seemed good to me, but....guys, listening to those demos is making me have lots of 2nd thoughts about if it was really worth it.


 I'm in the same boat as you especially since I feel like I dislike the demos for the same reasons. If there was a way to cancel the pre-order I think just at this moment I would, but that's probably not an option... . So I just hope for the best. Otherwise I just learned a very valuable lesson.....


----------



## mralmostpopular

Drundfunk said:


> I'm in the same boat as you especially since I feel like I dislike the demos for the same reasons. If there was a way to cancel the pre-order I think just at this moment I would, but that's probably not an option... . So I just hope for the best. Otherwise I just learned a very valuable lesson.....



You can send an email to support. As long as you don’t download anything, it’s their policy to refund if you request it.


----------



## germancomponist

To my ears the demos are all good compositions, well done, but the mixes are not as good .... . Tom's I like the most.

And Craig, your demo sounds like Craig Sharmat ...., your own style, very good! 

And: The Brass Sound is killer!


----------



## Mike Fox

For anyone who's having second thoughts due to the demos, don't be so discouraged! 

If there's one thing I've learned from the last 10 years of buying sample libraries, demos are the very last reference for judging a library (i usually avoid them to begin with). 

Everyone composes differently, and everyone's workflow is different. This is obvious, but it's also the undeniable truth that the exact same library can bring forth varying results, depending on WHO the artist is. The composition, mix, and utilization of an instrument can screw with your perception!

I think if you bought the library based on the naked samples in the walkthrough, you'll probably be happy with it. Imo, walkthroughs are the most accurate representation of any given library, not the demos. 

2 cents.


----------



## germancomponist

Mike Fox said:


> I think if you bought the library based on the naked samples in the walkthrough, you'll probably be happy with it. Imo, walkthroughs are the most accurate representation of any given library, not the demos.
> 
> 2 cents.


+ 1000


----------



## jononotbono

Mike Fox said:


> For anyone who's having second thoughts due to the demos, don't be so discouraged!



Fuck that. I’m hoping less people buy it! 😂


----------



## Olfirf

purple said:


> I think at this point I am honestly more excited for Berlin Brass and other older libraries being available for SINE if it is as powerful as it seems to be in the walkthroughs. Let us also remember that OT libraries will soon be available a la carte anyways...


That was exactly my thought, but I was sceptical ... maybe my memory of Berlin Brass is clouded - after all, it is recorded in the same room. So, I took a listen to some Berlin Brass demos and also searched members’ compositions for some favourites ...












Indiana Bones - full Berlin Orchestra (Orchestral Tools)


With the arrival of Berlin Brass, I wrote this little piece. I certainly have to do some homework on the mix, but for now I just focused on a round composition and detailed midi programming. Enjoy! ;-)




vi-control.net











Danny Elfman "Goosebumps" Mockup !


Hello everyone, I'd like to present you my latest mockup : "Goosebumps", by Danny Elfman (2015). This was transcribed by ear, programmed, mixed and mastered by yours truly :) And here is the original piece, mixed by Dennis Sands at Fox Studios : All feedback is appreciated :) Thank you...




vi-control.net





I don’t know about you guys, but I find a lot of pieces to my liking with that library. None of the demos for this new library sound bad, but these are more to my taste and I also prefer the brass tone ...


----------



## purple

Olfirf said:


> That was exactly my thought, but I was sceptical ... maybe my memory of Berlin Brass is clouded - after all, it is recorded in the same room. So, I took a listen to some Berlin Brass demos and also searched members’ compositions for some favourites ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indiana Bones - full Berlin Orchestra (Orchestral Tools)
> 
> 
> With the arrival of Berlin Brass, I wrote this little piece. I certainly have to do some homework on the mix, but for now I just focused on a round composition and detailed midi programming. Enjoy! ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Danny Elfman "Goosebumps" Mockup !
> 
> 
> Hello everyone, I'd like to present you my latest mockup : "Goosebumps", by Danny Elfman (2015). This was transcribed by ear, programmed, mixed and mastered by yours truly :) And here is the original piece, mixed by Dennis Sands at Fox Studios : All feedback is appreciated :) Thank you...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t know about you guys, but I find a lot of pieces to my liking with that library. None of the demos for this new library sound bad, but these are more to my taste and I also prefer the brass tone ...



Yes, the original BB demos had me really excited for the day I'd save up enough to buy it. I don't get the same feeling form JXL yet and that's a shame because I bet the user demos will excite me!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I think the berlin brass demos were also better crafted in general, seems like timelines are an issue. 

entire process I'm sure was rushed, hushed, and thrown together last minute... it's not just a beta for the library, it was a beta for sine. 

Also think composers have been so used to not having the right dynamic layers that they ride the mod wheel way too high, which creates mix issues ect because nothing is going to hold a candle to 12 trombones

3 trombones can absolutely flatten you if they're in the right register and want to.


----------



## Nemoy

@Mike Fox Have you already preordered this brass library yourself, Mike?


----------



## Mike Fox

Nemoy said:


> @Mike Fox Have you already preordered this brass library yourself, Mike?


I haven't. I'm actually pretty content with my current brass libraries.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

ProfoundSilence said:


> 3 trombones can absolutely flatten you if they're in the right register and want to.



just to iterate my point, below I believe is 6 horns, 3 trumpets, 3 trombones, 2 tubas.

and it's not even CLOSE to the air those players are pushing into the top 2 dybamic layers of JXL. 

it's not that epic should be performed on a more traditional 4/3/3/1 but I think VI composers are not going to immediately know how to handle 12/6/12/7(low brass combined) all going like twice as hard as these 14 players between 4 sections already loud and overpowering



edit, didnt see the other 2 horn players, its 6 horns


----------



## Dominik

Eptesicus said:


> I agree it isnt 100% and gives the game away on a couple of occasions. But honestly, it is pretty damn good.
> 
> I actually think it copes with the really short fanfare type stuff very well and pretty convincingly.
> 
> Also, in most of the demos (including Tom's), the brass still sounds more realistic than the strings and winds.
> 
> The biggest annoyance, is that no company has really been able to get string and woodwind runs right yet. Runs are the absolute biggest tell in any mock up. They still just sounds so fake.


The problem is that the developers constantly ignore the need of round robin legato when developing a new library. This applies not only to runs but also to medium fast ostinatos. Always sounds like crap with all libraries. The only convincing arrangement I could do in this regard was with Dimension Strings from VSL but they have a bad sound and can´t be used in an exposed manner and they mix not well with other libraries.


----------



## Dominik

purple said:


> I think at this point I am honestly more excited for Berlin Brass and other older libraries being available for SINE if it is as powerful as it seems to be in the walkthroughs. Let us also remember that OT libraries will soon be available a la carte anyways...


Sine is the least I am hyped about. All what they showed us is also possible in the Kontakt libraries from OT. To purge certain Round Robins is nice but only if you can do this on a per Note basis and they didn´t show us that this would be possible. Just the mic merging which I probably wont use because I mix my instruments differently each time.
Furthermore some issues probably will emerge because you cannot test new software at all systems. I cross my fingers and hope for the best.
But.... the capsule engine is responsible for very long saving times (up to 50 seconds!) in Cubase at my system and I hope to overcome this with Sine.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

well I'm excited because I could be potentially creating a new mic mix when needed and then using midi to load/unload single positions. 

capsules zones are also an issue and eat a ton of ram, for instruments with huge sample pools and microphones... not to mention it saves on duplicate instruments/articulations, which is a life saver of you stack articulations often for different effects


----------



## tabulius

I'm not a fan of the demos either but I'm very excited to try these out. In (almost) all the demos I feel I want to put the trumpets 5dbs quieter and add an EQ to remove some of that harshness. The higher FFF(F) is just ridiculously loud and piercing and I think you should use it only in cresendos or few peak moments. The "Another Life" and "Reincarnation" demos had a pretty good balance in the mix imo. I think the key thing to remember with this library is being careful with the few top dynamic layers - I think few demos stayed there too long.

I make music for trailers as well so it is good to have that cut-thru-the-mix-ridiculously-loud-layer there too. But generally, I would be very careful as the first 3 or 4 layers are loud already. But I hate when few of the libraries that extra F is missing (or the quiet layer), I can have it here.

And those who have second thoughts, I think you have the normal 14-days or so to cancel the "contract" as they say if you are not happy with the project. You can check that from their terms and conditions.


----------



## alfred tapscott

Craig Sharmat said:


> Hi Alfred,
> 
> You may have not have liked my demo (I usually go in a different direction on my demos figuring others will cover the bombastic stuff) but I think you will be quite pleased when you get it tomorrow. The player works great and the instruments respond really well once you you know the articulations.
> 
> Best
> 
> Craig


Yes, please! I am not judging at all composition, musicianship, etc...! Just talking about midi sounding midish! It's very easy to critizise when you don't do it yourself. In return I'll try to do something with it when I get it and get smashed in the forum.  

Glad you are still defending it, sounds promising


----------



## Nils Neumann

tabulius said:


> I'm not a fan of the demos either but I'm very excited to try these out. In (almost) all the demos I feel I want to put the trumpets 5dbs quieter and add an EQ to remove some of that harshness. The higher FFF(F) is just ridiculously loud and piercing and I think you should use it only in cresendos or few peak moments. The "Another Life" and "Reincarnation" demos had a pretty good balance in the mix imo. I think the key thing to remember with this library is being careful with the few top dynamic layers - I think few demos stayed there too long.
> 
> I make music for trailers as well so it is good to have that cut-thru-the-mix-ridiculously-loud-layer there too. But generally, I would be very careful as the first 3 or 4 layers are loud already. But I hate when few of the libraries that extra F is missing (or the quiet layer), I can have it here.
> 
> And those who have second thoughts, I think you have the normal 14-days or so to cancel the "contract" as they say if you are not happy with the project. You can check that from their terms and conditions.



I actually used the fff layer for only a few seconds. The really good sound IMHO lays in the mf-f sample for loud Brass


----------



## PeterJCroissant

I personally wouldn’t worry those that have cold feet, having watched the walkthrough video again, imho it’s a beast! It seems very very playable to me.. that’s the most important to me, as I’m sure you’ll be able to dial in the sound you desire with the various mics..


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Nils Neumann said:


> I actually used the fff layer for only a few seconds. The really good sound IMHO lays in the mf-f sample for loud Brass


I feel like if I kocked up collapsing the dream from inception the modwheel would still only be at like 60% XD

I will ONLY use this for crescendos


----------



## Olfirf

ProfoundSilence said:


> I will ONLY use this for crescendos


... and to scare away burglars.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Olfirf said:


> ... and to scare away burglars.


but the buzzing will attract bears in search of honey


----------



## muzark

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> We’ve decided to postpone the release of Junkie XL Brass and the SINE player until tomorrow.
> 
> Although the player and library are ready to go, we discovered an online connection issue during final testing today. We need a few additional hours to solve this and ensure a proper download experience.
> 
> On the plus side, the pre-order price and masterclass offer will be extended until tomorrow’s release.We hope you understand this decision.
> Thank you for your patience, and we’re looking forward to releasing Junkie XL Brass and SINE tomorrow.
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT Team


So downloading will begin after 00:00 on 18th at Berlin time?


----------



## bfreepro

muzark said:


> So downloading will begin after 00:00 on 18th at Berlin time?


It will be released today, the 17th.


----------



## Olfirf

mralmostpopular said:


> You can send an email to support. As long as you don’t download anything, it’s their policy to refund if you request it.


Is that really the case? Just on an individual case by case basis or generally?


----------



## dcoscina

Mike Fox said:


> I haven't. I'm actually pretty content with my current brass libraries.


Me too. I pulled out BB last weekend and dang, what a lovely sound. I never write epic music where everything needs to go to 11. It’s a wonderfully crafted brass library. I’ve been writing for real brass players these days and, having been a trombone player for over a decade, I know what brass sounds like... and Berlin Brass sounds amazing (still keeping this Orchestral Tools friendly post).

As far as the demos go, hmmm. Well to be positive, I will say they aren't my cup of tea or not in the style I'm accustomed to listening to for brass. I just hope this doesn't usher in an era where the demands put on real players will exceed what they are capable of for an average group. I just listened to that Conrad Pope ScoreCast interview again and everything he dispenses in it is GOLD. Everyone here should have a listen....or two. WHoops, I think I forgot I'm in the JXL thread and not that Orchestration Mistakes one. LOL. Senior moment.


----------



## Waywyn

Hey everyone,

I did a Twitch live stream yesterday about JXL Brass, the SINE Player and how I used it all in the example of the official demo I had the pleasure to write. You can check it out here:


----------



## jimsession

purple said:


> I think Mahler excerpts should be required as demos for any new brass library before it can be allowed to be released.


haha i back that - that way we could have a true reference in regard to realism


----------



## muzark

bfreepro said:


> It will be released today, the 17th.


Feel like they are in a rush. Should have done everything properly and get every walk through video prepared before pre-order announcement rather than do all of this in a rush time.


----------



## Eptesicus

muzark said:


> Feel like they are in a rush. Should have done everything properly and get every walk through video prepared before pre-order announcement rather than do all of this in a rush time.



Yeh, its 15:00 in Germany so have had most of the working day now...and it would appear it still isn't fixed.


----------



## staypuft

jimsession said:


> haha i back that - that way we could have a true reference in regard to realism



No, not Mahler, please stop the mockup genocide! Instead go to youtube and search ´´twinkle twinkle little star for solo horn´´ and start from there....


I´m not joking, if you can´t get the simple stuff right, you will never be able to do Mahler or whatever absurd classical excerpt if you don´t learn to respect the instrument.

Anyone on the fence about JXLB:: listen to the walkthroughs, thye are the most truthful representation of the library you will get. User demos //and now even official demos/ unless they come from someone who has a track record in putting good shit out, are a disservice to devs and potential buyers.


----------



## bfreepro

muzark said:


> Feel like they are in a rush. Should have done everything properly and get every walk through video prepared before pre-order announcement rather than do all of this in a rush time.


I have to agree. I fully admit this is an ignorant viewpoint, as I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes or what the process is, but to a consumer and customer it just doesn’t look very good. That being said I’d still rather them deliver a smooth download experience than rush it and have us all scrambling when nothing downloads right


----------



## jimsession

staypuft said:


> No, not Mahler, please stop the mockup genocide! Instead go to youtube and search ´´twinkle twinkle little star for solo horn´´ and start from there....
> 
> 
> I´m not joking, if you can´t get the simple stuff right, you will never be able to do Mahler or whatever absurd classical excerpt if you don´t learn to respect the instrument.
> 
> Anyone on the fence about JXLB:: listen to the walkthroughs, thye are the most truthful representation of the library you will get. User demos //and now even official demos/ unless they come from someone who has a track record in putting good shit out, are a disservice to devs and potential buyers.



yes you are right, still i would welcome any mahler excerpts at any time


----------



## jimsession

bfreepro said:


> I have to agree. I fully admit this is an ignorant viewpoint, as I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes or what the process is, but to a consumer and customer it just doesn’t look very good. That being said I’d still rather them deliver a smooth download experience than rush it and have us all scrambling when nothing downloads right


yes it is very unprofessional being behind schedule. very bad time management.


----------



## muzark

jimsession said:


> yes it is very unprofessional being behind schedule. very bad time management.


Have to say that VSL always does very good job and is professional in this case


----------



## Henu

staypuft said:


> No, not Mahler, please stop the mockup genocide! Instead go to youtube and search ´´twinkle twinkle little star for solo horn´´ and start from there....



I'm all for elitism and stuff - and judging from your own music you posted elsewhere you _do_ have the balls to pull off comments like this - but I just wonder if you constantly feel everyone is so bad here that it makes your morning cereals travel up your throat, have you ever considered another forum where the level of composition and mockupping is closer to the standard you're enjoying?

And yes, I'm fully aware that without criticism there's not much room to evolve. Patting backs is even worse than harsh critic, so before you try to bait on this, it's not about that.


----------



## Waywyn

I am not working for Orchestral Tools here, but I wanted to add that there is a bit of a difference in rushing an entire product or having online connection issues!

I mean, everything can work as flawless and perfect as possible, but then there is one tiny issue with some server or a single line of script which isn't even in OTs hand and it messes up the entire release! No matter how perfectly it worked with e.g. in beta mode.

All I can say is that this team did an absolutely amazing job. As you can see in my walkthrough video SINE works absolutely rock solid and flawless. In fact, I don't even remember through how many stages other sample engines had to go through to even get to the point where SINE already is!

I even demonstrated how easy it is to simply download some additional mic instances! Live on Twitch!! On (almost) day one with an entirely new sample engine in its children's shoes!

I am absolutely aware that you guys can't wait for the release, but be prepared for a great and intuitive piece of software and an absolutely gorgeous brass library.


----------



## Tilt & Flow

Eptesicus said:


> Yeh, its 15:00 in Germany so have had most of the working day now...and it would appear it still isn't fixed.


At this point, I'm getting the feeling the problem is more than an "online connection issue"


----------



## jimsession

muzark said:


> Have to say that VSL always does very good job and is professional in this case


true. every company who does this for 10 years and earned thousands alone in pre-orders should be able to pull off a punctual release. i don't even believe this online connection issue


----------



## Loïc D

Waywyn said:


> I mean, everything can work as flawless and perfect as possible, but then there is one tiny issue with some server or a single line of script which isn't even in OTs hand and it messes up the entire release! No matter how perfectly it worked with e.g. in beta mode



I've walked that path and I second this.
Solution ready and issue at the last moment with online distribution (had to adjust Akamai subscription and wait for their feedback). You can easily lose 1 day or 2 in those details implying a lot of exhanges & technical tests. Well, sh*t happens, right ?...

I've no doubt that the product's ready. 

Anyway, good luck @OrchestralTools


----------



## Dominik

jimsession said:


> true. every company who does this for 10 years and earned thousands alone in pre-orders should be able to pull off a punctual release. i don't even believe this online connection issue


I am willing to chime in to this shit storm but it´s just that I am so excited about this release. It´s cruel to have to wait even longer than anticipated.
Keep cool!


----------



## muzark

Waywyn said:


> I am not working for Orchestral Tools here, but I wanted to add that there is a bit of a difference in rushing an entire product or having online connection issues!
> 
> I mean, everything can work as flawless and perfect as possible, but then there is one tiny issue with some server or a single line of script which isn't even in OTs hand and it messes up the entire release! No matter how perfectly it worked with e.g. in beta mode.
> 
> All I can say is that this team did an absolutely amazing job. As you can see in my walk through video SINE works absolutely rock solid and flawless. In fact, I don't even remember through how many stages other sample engines had to go through to even get to the point where SINE already is!
> 
> I even demonstrated how easy it is to simply download some additional mic instances! Live on Twitch!! On (almost) day one with an entirely new sample engine in its children's shoes!
> 
> I am absolutely aware that you guys can't wait for the release, but be prepared for a great and intuitive piece of software and an absolutely gorgeous brass library.



Love your demo and video so much, Alex. First video I watched from you was Storm Drum 2 demo, that's fantastic. But it seems you were not so much activated online for some time. Glad to see you now activated online again.

Not talking about the brass library is good or bad. And I'm so into the library when just watch the 2nd walk through video for few minutes, and payed with no hesitate. I looked the whole thread and what people said, just feel they are in a rush, just feel like this, no other means. I think just because the library is so good that maybe they are so glad to share with everyone as soon as possible.


----------



## Jack Weaver

muzark said:


> Have to say that VSL always does very good job and is professional in this case


So.... you don’t remember the VSL Synchron Strings debacle? It was released many months after the promise date. Even then they sounded weak. 

C’mon, give OT a breather on this.... I’m sure they’re very close. You’ll be just fine and will have forgotten about this in a week. This could be one of the best libraries of the decade. You will survive. 

.


----------



## StefVR

I think a big Sale of their Metropolis Ark series would calm me down. Happy to buy through their new Software too... I guess some bugs are to be expected. The software is way from basic so we probably will have to play some beta testing but I think it might be worth it.

P.S.: I am new here!


----------



## John R Wilson

StefVR said:


> I think a big Sale of their Metropolis Ark series would call me down



And on their the inspires


----------



## muzark

Jack Weaver said:


> So.... you don’t remember the VSL Synchron Strings debacle? It was released many months after the promise date. Even then they sounded weak.
> 
> C’mon, give OT a breather on this.... I’m sure they’re very close. You’ll be just fine and will have forgotten about this in a week. This could be one of the best libraries of the decade. You will survive.
> 
> .


I don't have Synchron Strings and did not pay attention what happened then. If so I'm sorry and take my words back.


----------



## synthetic

They're smart to slow down and figure out the problem. No one remembers if it's late, but they do remember if it's a terrible experience. 

Doesn't mean I'm gonna stop refreshing the page though.


----------



## jimsession

synthetic said:


> They're smart to slow down and figure out the problem. No one remembers if it's late, but they do remember if it's a terrible experience.
> 
> Doesn't mean I'm gonna stop refreshing the page though.


i will remember that it was late


----------



## I like music

Before the day is out I'm hoping (no, expecting) a solo horn rendition of the Force theme. And also for someone to do Indiana Jones.

There should be a thread with a few midis "made for brass" where you can go and just pull these off, and recreate a few short tracks etc. Just as a way of having a consistently comparable phrases done across different libraries.


----------



## synthetic

With the dynamic range of this thing I'm hoping someone will mock up Also Sprach Zarathustra.


----------



## staypuft

Henu said:


> I'm all for elitism and stuff - and judging from your own music you posted elsewhere you _do_ have the balls to pull off comments like this - but I just wonder if you constantly feel everyone is so bad here that it makes your morning cereals travel up your throat, have you ever considered another forum where the level of composition and mockupping is closer to the standard you're enjoying?
> 
> And yes, I'm fully aware that without criticism there's not much room to evolve. Patting backs is even worse than harsh critic, so before you try to bait on this, it's not about that.



I understand how my words can come across a bit harsh but my intention is to help to open some eyes. I mean it, load the twinkle twinkle star video, transcribe the solo horn and try to mock it up.....the difficulty ramps up gradually from variation to variation and by the end of it I guarantee you will have a better grasp on how to produce solid mockups. I get the excitement of having a new instrument but why rush it? Likes? Internet praise? Come on....

I have a lot of fun reading comments, learning and listen to the music here and yes there are talented composers but they are usually busy writing music or paying the rent. I just don´t think it´s fair to OT or potential buyers to throw some half-assed demo and pretend that helps....see how the official demos turned out to be. First impressions never have a second chance.

This is the opinion of one person of course...feel free to do whatever you want, improve your mockups or don´t, have fun, enjoy life! :D


----------



## bfreepro

SOMETHING is about to happen... they've got the placeholder image now https://www.orchestraltools.com/index.html


----------



## Manuel Stumpf

Oh. The OT website is gone. Something is happening.


----------



## I like music

staypuft said:


> I understand how my words can come across a bit harsh but my intention is to help to open some eyes. I mean it, load the twinkle twinkle star video, transcribe the solo horn and try to mock it up.....the difficulty ramps up gradually from variation to variation and by the end of it I guarantee you will have a better grasp on how to produce solid mockups. I get the excitement of having a new instrument but why rush it? Likes? Internet praise? Come on....
> 
> I have a lot of fun reading comments, learning and listen to the music here and yes there are talented composers but they are usually busy writing music or paying the rent. I just don´t think it´s fair to OT or potential buyers to throw some half-assed demo and pretend that helps....see how the official demos turned out to be. First impressions never have a second chance.
> 
> This is the opinion of one person of course...feel free to do whatever you want, improve your mockups or don´t, have fun, enjoy life! :D



I actually did this exact thing after I got Infinite Brass. It made me realise that my mockup skills would only improve if I spent considerable time with every single instrument (why, like learning an instrument!). And it taught me a lot about what my library could and couldn't do, and made me a bit more confident that I knew those instruments better. Below is the piece I did it with. Just the horn part. It reminds me that I now need to go do this sort of exercise for all of my other virtual instruments.


----------



## bfreepro

I heard if you refresh the page a total of 127 thousand times in one minute, everything just appears


----------



## Dominik

synthetic said:


> With the dynamic range of this thing I'm hoping someone will mock up Also Sprach Zarathustra.


haha, this is such a coincidence. I just finished a Zarathustra mock with Berlin Brass. This piece evoked the wish in me to have much more head room in the dynamics. I had to do a lot of work arounds especially with the crescendi and decrescendi. But the piece isn´t suited for JXLB at all because Strauss used to split the sections in up to 6 individiual harmonies in the Horns, 4 in the trumpets. Two trombones and one bass trombone. JXLB just doesn´t cover the needed instruments. 
I doubled two of the solo horns and transposed them to get horn 5 and 6. It would not work with one single solo horn as in JXLB because sometimes two solo horns play together and there is no 2 horns section. Furthermore, JXL Brass has no solo bass trombones.
But if the sound is similar to Berlin Brass it could have helped me with many passages were it gets loud.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Manuel Stumpf said:


> Oh. The OT website is gone. Something is happening.


uhhh yeah I just went to check and was like !?1?1?1?1?!?!?!?1?/?1??!?! I HAVE TO TELL SOMEONE


----------



## mralmostpopular

Olfirf said:


> Is that really the case? Just on an individual case by case basis or generally?



Yes, it’s in their terms of service.


----------



## jneebz

NoamL said:


> All of these demos reinforce the same strange gradient impression for me. The lower the instrument, the more impressively cinematic and useful it sounds. Agree with @AlexRuger that the tuba is a standout. Suppose that you just landed a gig that needed lots of that huge brass and you would in other circumstances be looking at Albion 3 or Musical Sampling Trailer Brass, buying just the trombones and tuba from JXLB could be an even better option. You gotta stand in awe at the number of choices here including the ability to write true divisi for TWELVE TROMBONES! What the heck! This truly takes low brass sampling to a new level of options. By contrast the horn sounds aren't really markedly better or worse than what I own, and the trumpets aren't really doin' it for me. Overall it's a library that goes firmly on my "If you get Gig X, make sure to buy Library Y before you start" list.


Man, I always appreciate your perspective @NoamL


----------



## bfreepro

LIVE!


----------



## Manuel Stumpf

The new page is back!


----------



## emilio_n

And now JXL Brass is with 20% off.


----------



## Fry777




----------



## turnerofwheels

...and we're off to the races!


----------



## emilio_n

SINE Installed already... lol


----------



## Mike Fox

Was hoping to see some sales.


----------



## cadenzajon

Listening to some the JLX Brass demos, the lib seems to find its home in long, powerful low brass lines and stabby, crisp staccatissimos with lots of RRs. By the time I've endured 3 or 4 minutes of this kind of writing, I can only imagine every brass player I've ever worked with semi-comatose on the floor of the recording studio. The samples can be convincing at times and it certainly evokes a cinematic feel, but it demands a certain level of restraint to write within the bounds of what would be reasonably possible for an orchestra to cover.

For that reason, I think I prefer using BB and its more modest sound palette, and reaching for an Ark when I'm ready to make an intentional choice to pull the stops out. It encourages a certain empathy for realistic limits. I don't know that I would trust myself with the temptations of writing for JXL Brass.


----------



## pawelmorytko

Olfirf said:


> That was exactly my thought, but I was sceptical ... maybe my memory of Berlin Brass is clouded - after all, it is recorded in the same room. So, I took a listen to some Berlin Brass demos and also searched members’ compositions for some favourites ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indiana Bones - full Berlin Orchestra (Orchestral Tools)
> 
> 
> With the arrival of Berlin Brass, I wrote this little piece. I certainly have to do some homework on the mix, but for now I just focused on a round composition and detailed midi programming. Enjoy! ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Danny Elfman "Goosebumps" Mockup !
> 
> 
> Hello everyone, I'd like to present you my latest mockup : "Goosebumps", by Danny Elfman (2015). This was transcribed by ear, programmed, mixed and mastered by yours truly :) And here is the original piece, mixed by Dennis Sands at Fox Studios : All feedback is appreciated :) Thank you...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t know about you guys, but I find a lot of pieces to my liking with that library. None of the demos for this new library sound bad, but these are more to my taste and I also prefer the brass tone ...



I'm the same, I love the tone of Berlin Brass and think it's probably the best orchestral sampled brass. Might not be the easiest to work with as some say, but to my ears it nails the tone. The walkthrough for Berlin Brass were great as well. I can't wait to try it out for myself with single instruments being available soon.


----------



## John R Wilson

Mike Fox said:


> Was hoping to see some sales.



Same here. Is their any bundle pricing in the new SINE player store app?


----------



## bfreepro

"Goodness Gracious". Just kidding apparently


----------



## Bernard Duc

staypuft said:


> I understand how my words can come across a bit harsh but my intention is to help to open some eyes. I mean it, load the twinkle twinkle star video, transcribe the solo horn and try to mock it up.....the difficulty ramps up gradually from variation to variation and by the end of it I guarantee you will have a better grasp on how to produce solid mockups. I get the excitement of having a new instrument but why rush it? Likes? Internet praise? Come on....
> 
> I have a lot of fun reading comments, learning and listen to the music here and yes there are talented composers but they are usually busy writing music or paying the rent. I just don´t think it´s fair to OT or potential buyers to throw some half-assed demo and pretend that helps....see how the official demos turned out to be. First impressions never have a second chance.
> 
> This is the opinion of one person of course...feel free to do whatever you want, improve your mockups or don´t, have fun, enjoy life! :D



You don't come as harsh, but you're making many assumptions. First you assume the person doing the mockup doesn't have the skills to do complex classical mockups, or haven't try doing mockups of piece like this twinkle twinkle star video. Sorry if I come across as arrogant, but my two jobs are composing and conducting, and if I do a Mahler mockup it's either a section I conducted or at least one I studied. And I definitely did a bunch of classical pieces mockups, including solo stuff, before. 

Then you assume that the work is going to be rushed. I can simply say it won't be the case. With experience mockup producing can be very fast, especially if the articulations are consistent. 

And finally why would someone do it? For praise, likes? Maybe, but maybe it's also to help other people make a choice.


----------



## emilio_n

emilio_n said:


> SINE Installed already... lol


But I get an error when try to activate on Mac...


----------



## bfreepro

emilio_n said:


> But I get an error when try to activate on Mac...


how did you even download it yet lol, the page seemed back for a few minutes but couldn't log in or anything, now its gone again


----------



## OT_Tobias

As I wrote to you in a PM, please wait with activating. The servers are not fully online yet.
We will announce when everything is ready.


----------



## emilio_n

bfreepro said:


> how did you even download it yet lol, the page seemed back for a few minutes but couldn't log in or anything, now its gone again


Just went to SINE page and download... So maybe the problem is with the page that can't validate the user.


----------



## OT_Tobias

No, the problem is that you downloaded in the 10 seconds the page was visible 
All is well, just wait a few minutes.


----------



## Bernard Duc

Be patient, you have hours of download ahead... a few minutes more won't make much of a difference!


----------



## emilio_n

OT_Tobias said:


> No, the problem is that you downloaded in the 10 seconds the page was visible
> All is well, just wait a few minutes.


So sorry! 
I think everybody is crazy about your company and the new SINE. I promise don't touch anything!!


----------



## William Hoshal

OT_Tobias said:


> No, the problem is that you downloaded in the 10 seconds the page was visible
> All is well, just wait a few minutes.


LOL....did the same thing. Tobias, should we delete the .dmg and start over when you guys give us the go-ahead?


----------



## OT_Tobias

nope, you can keep the files. We just had to re-jiggle some servers, but once they are online again, all should be good.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

shit im downloading sine now


----------



## tabulius

It's coming alive. Where is the Sine download? I'm blind apparently...


----------



## PeterJCroissant

"Cannot find mic position by Id
The content could not be downloaded" 

I am getting when trying to download, any one else?


----------



## esmooov

I'm also getting the mic position by id error. Should we just wait for a bit.


----------



## Benjamin Duk

PeterJCroissant said:


> "Cannot find mic position by Id
> The content could not be downloaded"
> 
> I am getting when trying to download, any one else?



Yeah get the same issue.


----------



## pawelmorytko

I downloaded it anyway, even though I didn't buy JXL Brass... just wanted to stare at an empty player in awe  Can't wait to port older libraries onto the SINE player as well


----------



## muzark

guys, since OT team is working on that so close let's be patient


----------



## CromoFX

Benjamin Duk said:


> Yeah get the same issue.



Me too ... I'm trying to be patient now ... sooooo hard!


----------



## Sovereign

Nothing gets added to my download list.


----------



## OT_Tobias

Please do not download anything right now.
As I said, we will let you all know when everthing is up!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

ill be the first to admit I didn't read anything as soon as I could click the download button, it was shoot first ask questions later until I couldn't download anything.

in the mean time I peaked at the support section for the sine player pages


----------



## coprhead6

So purchasing a-la-carte isn't a thing yet, ugh. My evil plan has been foiled?


----------



## tabulius

tabulius said:


> It's coming alive. Where is the Sine download? I'm blind apparently...



I'll answer myself. I had the webpage in a small window so download links were hidden. I hope I can download soon, so I can leave my studio and leave the download for the night!


----------



## OrchestralTools

Last few steps guys... releasing soon!


----------



## Taj Mikel

Kind of surprised OT hasn’t sent an email about the delay? I’m having to dig through VIC posts. Only email I got was thanking me for my purchase, nothing else since.


----------



## bfreepro

Taj Mikel said:


> Kind of surprised OT hasn’t sent an email about the delay? I’m having to dig through VIC posts. Only email I got was thanking me for my purchase, nothing else since.


Agreed ...


----------



## tebling

Installed and activated SINE player, then took a big Windows update while I was waiting for the downloads to open up. Big mistake. Now when I launch SINE it brings up the activation screen again, and when I log in it says there's already a system activated with that name. Clearly the Windows update changed the system ID that SINE uses for activation and now I'm stuck. @OrchestralTools - help?


----------



## OT_Tobias

tebling said:


> Installed and activated SINE player, then took a big Windows update while I was waiting for the downloads to open up. Big mistake. Now when I launch SINE it brings up the activation screen again, and when I log in it says there's already a system activated with that name. Clearly the Windows update changed the system ID that SINE uses for activation and now I'm stuck. @OrchestralTools - help?



Please just enter a different system name. This is a known issue, but totally harmless. Downloads aren't live yet anyway


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Taj Mikel said:


> Kind of surprised OT hasn’t sent an email about the delay? I’m having to dig through VIC posts. Only email I got was thanking me for my purchase, nothing else since.


or they haven't sent you an email because they don't actually want you to download it yet, because they are getting all cylinders rolling XD.

they probably didn't predict we would be neurotically refreshing the webpage until there was a placeholder and downloading the link as soon as the website went live - LOL.


----------



## jimsession

Taj Mikel said:


> Kind of surprised OT hasn’t sent an email about the delay? I’m having to dig through VIC posts. Only email I got was thanking me for my purchase, nothing else since.


agreed...


----------



## lucor

Just started downloading!


----------



## tebling

OT_Tobias said:


> Please just enter a different system name. This is a known issue, but totally harmless. Downloads aren't live yet anyway



Ok, that worked. Thank you!


----------



## OT_Tobias

Yup, you can try CAREFULLY 
Most users' download should be life by now.


----------



## bfreepro

ProfoundSilence said:


> or they haven't sent you an email because they don't actually want you to download it yet, because they are getting all cylinders rolling XD.
> 
> they probably didn't predict we would be neurotically refreshing the webpage until there was a placeholder and downloading the link as soon as the website went live - LOL.



but realistically, what did they expect? Even if someone wasn't even aware of the library release and visited the webpage, of course they're going to assume it's functional and everything. Just seems odd to make the download link live, when it doesn't actually work, and just relying on a simple VI-Control thread to relay the info that we're not supposed to download yet, ya know. And he was referring to notifying those who purchased the pre-order via email about the delay (releasing today instead of yesterday as originally planned), which would have been nice. Not everyone uses VI-Control, in fact the majority probably don't. They did have the notice on the website but a simple email would have been nice.

PS before someone pounces and saying we're all complaining, it's worth mentioning these little things so they know where to improve. Doesn't change the fact OT is a great company delivering great products.


----------



## jimsession

if i click on "SINE Player" it always sends me back to the Homepage


----------



## Bernard Duc

OT_Tobias said:


> Yup, you can try CAREFULLY
> Most users' download should be life by now.


Working perfectly so far (though I would have enjoyed having a timer to tell me approximately how long it will take)


----------



## Fry777

jimsession said:


> if i click on "SINE Player" it always sends me back to the Homepage



Same here


----------



## richard kurek

i suppose not all have download instructions , i havent received any


----------



## KEM

Geez is the full library really over 1tb??


----------



## jimsession

KEM said:


> Geez is the full library really over 1tb??


no


----------



## Eptesicus

KEM said:


> Geez is the full library really over 1tb??



I thought it was 300gb?


----------



## OT_Tobias

KEM said:


> Geez is the full library really over 1tb??



around 300 GB.


----------



## Bernard Duc

@OT_Tobias Congrats OT on the release! Is there a way to pause the download, or is it safe to close Sine while downloading?


----------



## KEM

OT_Tobias said:


> around 300 GB.



That’s what I thought, when I clicked download all I saw was something about 1tb but that might’ve just been saying how big my hard drive was


----------



## Scalms

Bernard Duc said:


> @OT_Tobias Congrats OT on the release! Is there a way to pause the download, or is it safe to close Sine while downloading?


yeah, same question here, just a small recommendation to include a pause button on the download, right now you have to close the whole app (which I did and everything was fine, it just says it will resume when you open back up)


----------



## OT_Tobias

Bernard Duc said:


> @OT_Tobias Congrats OT on the release! Is there a way to pause the download, or is it safe to close Sine while downloading?



I'm afraid at this time there is no pause function, but we are looking to introduce that soon! Thanks for you +1


----------



## jimsession

finally Sine is online


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Since I had nothing better to do, and I'm hungry - I decided to update my profile picture.

**DISCLAIMER** I love orchestral tools, own almost all their products, and this is just a joke to pass the time, and is in no way any sort of jab at the company, it's staff, it's branding, and it's certainly not any sort of indicator that I'm employed by or affiliated at all with Orchestral Tools.

I'm listening to Mahler's 2nd waiting patiently(Rip Maestro Jansons) while I wait patiently for the ability to download these gorgeous bass bones before I go to sleep. I invite you to join me, or atleast share what piece you're listening to while you suffer for the all clear


----------



## OrchestralTools

We are so excited to finally release Junkie XL Brass and SINE! 
We can't wait to hear what you guys think.

And as an introductory offer, you can now buy Junkie XL Brass for €599 via the Junkie XL Brass product page.

www.jxlbrass.com
http://www.getsine.com (www.getsine.com)


----------



## Scalms

OT_Tobias said:


> I'm afraid at this time there is no pause function, but we are looking to introduce that soon! Thanks for you +1


Very cool interface, especially how to select the instruments/mics for download- very well thought out, easy to use, can't wait to hear some sounds now!


----------



## Mike Fox

@OrchestralTools Sorry for asking a question not related to JXLB, but will there be any upcoming holiday sales on the Arks?


----------



## Bernard Duc

I guess there is no way to cancel a download? I just realised I won't need the surround mixes for a while.


----------



## OT_Tobias

Bernard Duc said:


> I guess there is no way to cancel a download? I just realised I won't need the surround mixes for a while.


not at this time. Well, there is, but you'd loose your download progress... let me know to [email protected] if you want instructions.


----------



## Scalms

one more question from me too, is there a way to select a subfolder to download to? right now it just gives me the choice of the root drive. If I move this folder later on, is there a way to re-direct SINE to see it?


----------



## Manuel Stumpf

Does Sine allow relocating a downloaded library to another disk location, or do I have to download it to the final directory?


----------



## OT_Tobias

Scalms said:


> one more question from me too, is there a way to select a subfolder to download to? right now it just gives me the choice of the root drive. If I move this folder later on, is there a way to re-direct SINE to see it?


currently you can not select a custom folder. This is on our list, though. Please do not move the folder!


----------



## Scalms

OT_Tobias said:


> currently you can not select a custom folder. This is on our list, though. Please do not move the folder!


sounds good, thanks for the heads up!


----------



## OT_Tobias

Manuel Stumpf said:


> Does Sine allow relocating a downloaded library to another disk location, or do I have to download it to the final directory?



you can theoretically move an installed collection. SINE will ask when loading an instrument where the missing files are and you can give it the new location. You can even do it for the whole library if you've moved tons of instruments.

But of course it would be preferable to download to the right location in the first place 

totally custom location (not in the root of a drive) will also cause update issues at this time. So don't move them.


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

Congrats guys! This sounds really incredible, 12 trombones patch just downloaded and had a quick play with. They weren´t joking about the dynamic range. Blown away!


----------



## jimsession

@OrchestralTools i found a bug: on the matebook x with a resolution of 3000 x 2000 pxs and a zooming of 200% (which is a pretty common setting on hdpi windows 10 devices) it displays a window in a strange location for "Store" "My Licences" and the account.

thought you would like to know


----------



## OT_Tobias

This is indeed an issue with ultra-high-res displays, where the browser gets confused.
We're tracking this down, but it is quite elusive


----------



## jimsession

OT_Tobias said:


> This is indeed an issue with ultra-high-res displays, where the browser gets confused.
> We're tracking this down, but it is quite elusive


i believe in your capabilities


----------



## Bernard Duc

OT_Tobias said:


> not at this time. Well, there is, but you'd loose your download progress... let me know to [email protected] if you want instructions.


Just contacted you.


----------



## spukipuki

Just played the trumpet. Sounds good & Sine feels good.


----------



## jimsession

OT_Tobias said:


> not at this time. Well, there is, but you'd loose your download progress... let me know to [email protected] if you want instructions.



would be interested in as well


----------



## Dominik

jimsession said:


> i believe in your capabilities


I have the same issue and I also use a high resolution monitor. But it works anyway.


----------



## OT_Tobias

With great power comes great responsibility.... https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/333-deleting-your-library-json


----------



## jimsession

OT_Tobias said:


> With great power comes great responsibility.... https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/333-deleting-your-library-json


perfect thank you!


----------



## Dominik

There is a graphics bug when I pull an articulation to the Articulation List. Just wanted to inform you. Nothing bad happening.


----------



## Virtuoso

I'm having an issue with downloads stalling. They get to a certain point and then just stop. There is no pause/resume button so the only option is to quit Sine and restart, at which point the downloads _appear_ to start again from the beginning - but they will get to 1/3 and then unpack and install. I've had to do this quit and resume with every download so far.


----------



## OT_Tobias

Dominik:Can you sens us a screenshot to [email protected]?


----------



## Eptesicus

I dont get any sort of percentage or time remaining countdown on downloads. Is that right?


----------



## EvilDragon

Good ol' MVP.


----------



## OT_Tobias

What is MVP?


----------



## Sovereign

I'm having issues with audio of the Sine player just freezing out of the blue. When I switch to one of the tabs in the player this resolves the problem. Extremely annoying, since it's happening rather frequently.


----------



## Dominik

My first issue: 
Horns 4a -> Marcato Long: when stopping notes in FF the release sample sounds like one of a MF note.


----------



## EvilDragon

"Minimum viable product"

I wish you guys luck in sorting out the inevitable teething issues with a fresh release. But stuff like pausing/resuming downloads should have been there from the start, methinks


----------



## OT_Tobias

Sovereign said:


> I'm having issues with audio of the Sine player just freezing out of the blue. When I switch to one of the tabs in the player this resolves the problem. Extremely annoying, since it's happening rather frequently.


Please contact us about this to [email protected] so we can track it! We haven't encountered this during out testing... curious...


----------



## OT_Tobias

EvilDragon said:


> "Minimum viable product"
> 
> I wish you guys luck in sorting out the inevitable teething issues with a fresh release. But stuff like pausing/resuming downloads should have been there from the start, methinks



ah, ok.
Yeah, it is a 1.0. But at least I stand proudly behind it and I genuinely believe we could not have done a better job at this time.
We'll improve a lot of things, but so far feedback has been stellar and I invite everyone to make a better sample player in the same time


----------



## Eptesicus

Eptesicus said:


> I dont get any sort of percentage or time remaining countdown on downloads. Is that right?



Weird, it just suddenly appeared about three quarters of the way into the download.

Time/percentage renaming and download speed would be good additions.


----------



## Bernard Duc

OT_Tobias said:


> ah, ok.
> Yeah, it is a 1.0. But at least I stand proudly behind it and I genuinely believe we could not have done a better job at this time.
> We'll improve a lot of things, but so far feedback has been stellar and I invite everyone to make a better sample player in the same time


And there is always you to help, OT's MVP (most valuable player in sport teams)! 

While I would have liked a pause / cancel button, I have to say that so far the experience is good and at least the interface is very intuitive.


----------



## Dominik

Second issue (but this can be related to my system:
I created key switches but I can´t adress the C-2 slot with my keyboard. And there seem to be no way moving the keyswitches higher up.


----------



## Bernard Duc

Eptesicus said:


> Weird, it just suddenly appeared about three quarters of the way into the download.
> 
> Time/percentage renaming and download speed would be good additions.


I actually exists, but for some reason it only appeared after I restarted the player. Try doing the same.


----------



## OT_Tobias

Dominik said:


> Second issue (but this can be related to my system:
> I created key switches but I can´t adress the C-2 slot with my keyboard. And there seem to be no way moving the keyswitches higher up.



You can move keyswitches in the performance view (just drag their middle on the keyboard).
This C-2 thing only happens if they*ve been placed at C-2 by default. We've noticed that and it is super high on the fixlist!


----------



## Eptesicus

I do think its cool to have all the instrument/mic downloading incorporated into the player itself


----------



## Dominik

Oh my... stand alone just crashed when I tried to activate a mic in the mixer. Just terminated.


----------



## Maxime Luft

Virtuoso said:


> I'm having an issue with downloads stalling. They get to a certain point and then just stop. There is no pause/resume button so the only option is to quit Sine and restart, at which point the downloads _appear_ to start again from the beginning - but they will get to 1/3 and then unpack and install. I've had to do this quit and resume with every download so far.



If the download stops, just wait for about 20-30 minutes. In the meantime, the download manager automatically tries to bring the installation further. If that does not help, you may just restart SINE. And if this does not help either, write us to [email protected] and we try to get it solved together.

Downloading literally everyhing I see, not bad


----------



## OT_Tobias

Dominik said:


> Oh my... stand alone just crashed when I tried to activate a mic in the mixer. Just terminated.



Which mic from which instrument? Does it happen again after you restart SINE?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

hey OT, two big things with SINE. 

1.) midi mapping of microphone channels!!! I bought a piece of hardware just because I mix microphones better by ear using physical faders than I do clicking around 1 channel at a time with the mouse. 

2.) let us poly with other instruments on the same channel, or allow "empty" aritculations to be loaded. I attempt to create my own empty articulation by disabling all dynamic layers, but it restricts you to atleeast one. I disabled all round robin layers but again it restricts you to atleast one. I basically just need a "dummy" articulation - and while I was able to sort of make what I was trying to do work with a staccatissimo pp 1 RR/maxed out cut off filter and long attack time - it's still a waste of resources for what I'm trying to accomplish by eventually being able to use articulation morphing between berlin strings expansions(or creative effects in general)

wish I had more time, but im wayyy past my bed time already - GL everyone!


----------



## OT_Tobias

Both are on the wishlist already!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

OT_Tobias said:


> Both are on the wishlist already!



Good to know!

Is there a way we can opt into the beta for sine ports from other products? I'm itching to get my kontakt libraries into sine and I don't make music so it's not like i'll miss any deadlines if the early versions are buggy


----------



## OT_Tobias

Send me an email to [email protected] with a bit of info about your system and what kind of music you do, etc.... and as soon as the waves have settled, we can see


----------



## Fitz

Amid all the harshness people are throwing at OT, congrats on the release. Of course there will be bugs and issues but thank you for making a great library and creating tools for composers. This is not a minimum viable product and is, in fact, incredibly robust for a v1.0


----------



## EvilDragon

DFD setting should be global, not per instance


----------



## OT_Tobias

DFD is global, but will not change existing instances on purpose to allow different settings according to how the instruments need it/on which drives they are, etc...


----------



## Zedcars

Mics for dummies question: What's the "Rev" Mics mean? I'm assuming it's to do with Surround which I don't use. Sorry for the baby question 👶


----------



## Shubus

I must be mighty sleepy. I got the Sine Player downloaded & installed but darned if I can figure out how to download any of the Brass library!


----------



## OT_Tobias

Reverb 
the Rev Only have only Reverb channels.


----------



## OT_Tobias

Shubus said:


> I must be mighty sleepy. I got the Sine Player downloaded & installed but darned if I can figure out how to download any of the Brass library!



here's detailed instructions: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/category/315-installation-guide


----------



## Zedcars

OT_Tobias said:


> Reverb
> the Rev Only have only Reverb channels.


Cool, I just twigged it could be that. Thanks for helping me out of nursery school.


----------



## Shubus

OT_Tobias said:


> here's detailed instructions: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/category/315-installation-guide


Thanks Tobias!


----------



## Virtuoso

Odd background crashing noise on Trombones a3 at the top 2 dynamic levels affecting F#2 & G2 (see attached)

I also got a download error message saying:-



> Cannot unpack /Users/andrew/Library/Application Support/Orchestral Tools/SINE Player/Download/382/amxlclose/metadata.zip
> 
> The content could not be downloaded
> 
> nested: /Users/andrew/Library/Application Support/Orchestral Tools/SINE Player/Download/382/amxlclose/metadata.zip not found or is not valid.
> 
> UnzipError - Failed to unzip an archive.



I don't know what to do about this error, since it doesn't tell me which instrument it relates to and gives me no option to re-download or try again - just a 'Close' box.


----------



## Bernard Duc

Quick tip for people changing the key switches range: you need to reload the instruments to see the change.


----------



## EvilDragon

Guys, what's the RAM load of an empty instance of SINE?


----------



## Uiroo

Fitz said:


> Amid all the harshness people are throwing at OT, congrats on the release. Of course there will be bugs and issues but thank you for making a great library and creating tools for composers. This is not a minimum viable product and is, in fact, incredibly robust for a v1.0


Mhm, not being able to pause the download would have been a huge issue, if I had bought JXLBrass. Where I live, downloading takes pretty much the whole bandwidth, so internet becomes unusable for my partner. With 300gb the download takes, uh, two days I'd imagine? I actually couldn't download it under these circumstances.

Let's look at it this way, the earlier adapter discount exists for a reason


----------



## alfred tapscott

hi! just a quick one...I'm getting lots of clicks while playing JXL. I'm on a 7960x 32core machine with 128gb RAM, Antelope interface, windows10, Cubase 9.5. Kontakt runs obviously smooth, but getting lots of clicks on the sine player (once everything is loaded, obviously).

Seems fine when I go up to buffer 256, but I'm always at 128, that's why I got this machine, to get little latency. Kontakt is solid up to 64 buffer. 

Anybody else?

Thanks

Alfred


----------



## Bernard Duc

EvilDragon said:


> Guy, what's the RAM load of an empty instance of SINE?


360 MB for the VST version on Windows.


----------



## EvilDragon

That's quite a lot...


----------



## Virtuoso

EvilDragon said:


> Guy, what's the RAM load of an empty instance of SINE?


Activity Monitor reports 60.7MB for the standalone player on MacOS Mojave.


----------



## Shubus

On a Mac are there any issues which would prevent using Aliases to place these libraries outside the root directory.....into an external SSD?


----------



## EvilDragon

Uiroo said:


> Where I live, downloading takes pretty much the whole bandwidth, so internet becomes unusable for my partner.



This is actually a pretty good point. There should be bandwidth adjustment for downloading, so that you can choose your target download speed, leaving a bit of bandwidth for other things...


----------



## Bernard Duc

EvilDragon said:


> That's quite a lot...


The whole store and downloading /installing system exist in the plugin version. I'm not sure that's a good idea. Also having it open while having the standalone version downloading seems to make it unstable.


----------



## EvilDragon

Bernard Duc said:


> The whole store and downloading /installing system exist in the plugin version. I'm not sure that's a good idea.



Yeah probably not. Plugin version should IMHO just contain the player and library browser, trim all the fat as much as possible. Empty instances should be lean.


----------



## Zedcars

I usually download libraries to a separate drive and copy to my SSD when done.

*How would I tell SINE that I've moved the library to a new drive?*


----------



## Bernard Duc

EvilDragon said:


> Yeah probably not. Plugin version should IMHO just contain the player and library browser, trim all the fat as much as possible. Empty instances should be lean.


We will see, but I think they are going to get read of some features in the plugin version which are useless anyway.


----------



## Waywyn

muzark said:


> Love your demo and video so much, Alex. First video I watched from you was Storm Drum 2 demo, that's fantastic. But it seems you were not so much activated online for some time. Glad to see you now activated online again.
> 
> Not talking about the brass library is good or bad. And I'm so into the library when just watch the 2nd walk through video for few minutes, and payed with no hesitate. I looked the whole thread and what people said, just feel they are in a rush, just feel like this, no other means. I think just because the library is so good that maybe they are so glad to share with everyone as soon as possible.



Yeh makes sense! Funny thing is this thread currently looks like WoW release day 1 anyway (which is so awesome to see )

... and yes, I was quite active and had sort of a long phase of not caring that much, simple because of other things and issues. However, I am back, more than ever! 🙌


----------



## Bernard Duc

Zedcars said:


> I usually download libraries to a separate drive and copy to my SSD when done.
> 
> *How would I tell SINE that I've moved the library to a new drive?*


Tobias said higher than you can simply move the folder and Sine should ask you to locate the library.


----------



## Hendrik-Schwarzer

Just for info. The My Licenses and store is kind of an extra element that will be shared with the other instances.

Also if you download in the standalone, its not possible to download in Cubase in the same time.


----------



## savagedog

Zedcars said:


> I usually download libraries to a separate drive and copy to my SSD when done.
> 
> *How would I tell SINE that I've moved the library to a new drive?*


Did it and after restart the sine it asked where to find the samples.


----------



## Hendrik-Schwarzer

Zedcars said:


> I usually download libraries to a separate drive and copy to my SSD when done.
> 
> *How would I tell SINE that I've moved the library to a new drive?*



I made a little screencast about moving instruments to another system.
You can simply lead SINE with the "+Collection" button to the new location.

Maybe that helps in your situation as well, as it also gives you some insight into the file structure:



Best,
Hendrik


----------



## Zedcars

Cool, thanks guys!

Now just a waiting game. Might just sit here and watch the progress bars for the rest of the evening...


----------



## muzark

EvilDragon said:


> Yeah probably not. Plugin version should IMHO just contain the player and library browser, trim all the fat as much as possible. Empty instances should be lean.


I totally agree. @OrchestralTools I wish standalone APP will be in charge of downloading or something else and VSTi should like @EviDragon said just contain the player and library browser. Every time I unplug the VSTi in cubase it would say "downloading will stop...." something, that should not be VSTi's function. And because SINE VSTi is fat the loading time and GUI response is not comfortable.


----------



## Waywyn

Bernard Duc said:


> The whole store and downloading /installing system exist in the plugin version. I'm not sure that's a good idea. Also having it open while having the standalone version downloading seems to make it unstable.



To be honest, when you download ANY library during work it ALWAYS seems to make everything unstable and it will always introduce some glitches (as long as we are talking about the same sample drive) 

As a side note, personally I curse more when opening some downloader, put in a serial number, set a path to hope that it worked out alright.

Right now I am in the process of installing a new workstation and it would be a breeze if I can download my existing stuff as easily as SINE offers it


----------



## Eptesicus

Here is some raw, quickly played straight in, a4 horns with mid, tree and AB mics only.

Love the tone of the horns.


----------



## Hendrik-Schwarzer

muzark said:


> I totally agree. @OrchestralTools I wish standalone APP will be in charge of downloading or something else and VSTi should like @EviDragon said just contain the player and library browser. Every time I unplug the VSTi in cubase it would say "downloading will stop...." something, that should not be VSTi's function. And because SINE VSTi is fat the loading time and GUI response is not comfortable.



Just start the standalone first for downloading. In this case the standalone will become the master instance for the internet usage. Downloading and stuff is then deactivated in the plugin.

BUT in any way. If you don't click on My Licenses or Store or the User Name it does not initialize the web component. Don't worry about that.


----------



## EvilDragon

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> BUT in any way. If you don't click on My Licenses or Store or the User Name it does not initialize the web component. Don't worry about that.



So, it would make sense to just hide those two tabs from the plugin version, in some update down the road.


----------



## Hendrik-Schwarzer

EvilDragon said:


> So, it would make sense to just hide those two tabs from the plugin version, in some update down the road.



It never starts automatically. You've to initiate downloads by yourself.


----------



## jacobthestupendous

I like EvilDragon's idea of setting your desired bandwidth consumption for downloads (assuming this is even possible--I know there are lots of considerations).

In the meantime, I'd also request a display of current download speed. I have a gigabit internet connection, and I like to see when I'm actually benefiting from it.


----------



## Hendrik-Schwarzer

Fitz said:


> Amid all the harshness people are throwing at OT, congrats on the release. Of course there will be bugs and issues but thank you for making a great library and creating tools for composers. This is not a minimum viable product and is, in fact, incredibly robust for a v1.0



Thanks for this! And thanks to all of you for all the great feedback so far – we're really pleased and feeling very relieved!

So moving forward, if you encounter any issues or need help please take advantage of our dedicated SINE support: [email protected]

You can also check out helpdesk.orchestraltools.com – we put together the most frequent questions there.

Beside that, I want to wish you all a great start with Junkie XL Brass. We're excited to hear what you create with it.

All the best,
Hendrik


----------



## shawnsingh

Eptesicus said:


> Here is some raw, quickly played straight in, a4 horns with mid, tree and AB mics only.
> 
> Love the tone of the horns.



natural tree/AB? or AMXL tree/AB?


----------



## EvilDragon

No I'm just saying those two tabs that depend on a web component shouldn't be in the plugin at all.


----------



## Eptesicus

shawnsingh said:


> natural tree/AB? or AMXL tree/AB?



Just natural


----------



## Dominik

OT_Tobias said:


> Which mic from which instrument? Does it happen again after you restart SINE?


So far I had no more problems. I will get in touch via eMail if I run into more trouble. 
It was on the mic remote page.


----------



## shawnsingh

EvilDragon said:


> No I'm just saying those two tabs that depend on a web component shouldn't be in the plugin at all.



I have mixed feelings about this stance. It makes sense under certain assumptions/constraints, and also makes sense to avoid confusion with standalone app and plugin that may be running simultaneously.

But ... if the web components don't get loaded and don't consume RAM/CPU in the common case, unless user activates those tabs - and if the resources required for the web are shared across plugin instances - then maybe it's not that bad to have it, and wouldn't it be nice to have it as an option? I think the use case would be when someone is deep in a project, they want a different mic position, so they download it, keep working, and then set up the new mic mix once it's downloaded.


----------



## OT_Tobias

shawnsingh said:


> I have mixed feelings about this stance. It makes sense under certain assumptions/constraints, and also makes sense to avoid confusion with standalone app and plugin that may be running simultaneously.
> 
> But ... if the web components don't get loaded and don't consume RAM/CPU in the common case, unless user activates those tabs - and if the resources required for the web are shared across plugin instances - then maybe it's not that bad to have it, and wouldn't it be nice to have it as an option? I think the use case would be when someone is deep in a project, they want a different mic position, so they download it, keep working, and then set up the new mic mix once it's downloaded.



That is precisely why we did it. I can assure you no web components get loaded if you do not actively click on MyLicenses or Store.


----------



## Bernard Duc

EvilDragon said:


> Yeah probably not. Plugin version should IMHO just contain the player and library browser, trim all the fat as much as possible. Empty instances should be lean.


Actually I was wrong


Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> It never starts automatically. You've to initiate downloads by yourself.


But it does look like the plugin still interacts somehow with the downloads because when I close the plugin it tells me it will stop the downloads (which thankfully it doesn't do)


----------



## Waywyn

I just ask myself how you guys made it that fast to download the lib and started working intensively with the lib and experienced some issues to worry that much about the shop implementation?


----------



## Manuel Stumpf

EvilDragon said:


> No I'm just saying those two tabs that depend on a web component shouldn't be in the plugin at all.


Having a store inside the plugin, probably is a business decision and among the reasons to do their own player. In order to let people buy instruments from inside the DAW.


----------



## Eptesicus

A bit more noodling (just doing this in case someone wants to hear it from an actual users fingers rather than the official promo stuff)

Again, raw a4 horns just played in, no tweaking. natural mid, tree and AB mics only.


----------



## jimsession

Manuel Stumpf said:


> Having a store inside the plugin, probably is a business decision and among the reasons to do their own player. In order to let people buy instruments from inside the DAW.


yes, doesn't evildragon work for the competitor Kontakt anyways?


----------



## Manuel Stumpf

jimsession said:


> yes, doesn't evildragon work for the competitor Kontakt anyways?


Good observation.


----------



## jimsession

Manuel Stumpf said:


> Good observation.


he already dissed OT by saying they made a Minimum Viable Product haha


----------



## nas

Just a small question regarding downloading. 

If I say download from one computer to an external drive from a location with a faster line and then take the external drive to a studio at another location and connect to my slave computer (which is running on Vienna Ensemble Pro) Will SINE that is inside Vienna Ensemble Pro be able to locate the library on the external SDD? or will I need to do some sort of a " batch re-save" - similar to Kontakt for SINE to be able to find the library's instruments and samples? 

(I have SINE already installed on all my various computers at different locations)


----------



## EvilDragon

I use other samplers as well (for example Falcon, but also TX16Wx, Nuance, TAL Sampler, HALion, all for different purposes). So I'm still a user, too. As a competitor, though, I am not concerned, since OT is doing something else here, I'm not getting a feeling they want to "take down Kontakt". They have a different goal, that alone should be obvious.

And yes, saying that this was an MVP was not a diss, but just a general feel about it. It's the modern way of programming, really. It's a fact, a reality, not a diss. If it weren't an MVP, it would've taken them more than 3 years to get it to this point, and it would be tested with a wider variety of DAWs than they probably have (I wonder have they tested FL Studio, for example?), RAM usage would not be 360 MB for empty instance (Falcon for example is 100 MB), etc.


Still, what I can see is that OT is totally behind their product and are commited. So they will work on these things, and eventually this should be a fairly good player. I'm speculating they should reach maturity much faster than PLAY did, say.


----------



## funnybear

Congratulations OT on the launch! Well done! Looking forward to using SINE with my OT libs once they have been added.


----------



## OT_Tobias

nas said:


> Just a small question regarding downloading.
> 
> If I say download from one computer to an external drive form a location with a faster line and then take the external drive to a studio at another location and connect to my slave computer (which is running on Vienna Ensemble Pro) Will SINE that is inside Vienna Ensemble Pro be able to locate the library on the external SDD? or will I need to do some sort of a " batch re-save" - similar to Kontakt for SINE to be able to find the library's instruments and samples?
> 
> (I have SINE already installed on all my various computers at different locations)



We have article about exactly that on our Helpdesk: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/329-installing-instruments-on-offline-systems
Of course if you have any questions, email us at [email protected], but that article should be exactly what you are looking for.


----------



## nas

OT_Tobias said:


> We have article about exactly that on our Helpdesk: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/329-installing-instruments-on-offline-systems
> Of course if you have any questions, email us at [email protected], but that article should be exactly what you are looking for.



Ok Great - I just checked out the article and will give it a try. Thanks!


----------



## Hendrik-Schwarzer

jimsession said:


> he already dissed OT by saying they made a Minimum Viable Product haha



I'm happy for any feedback. We know it is a 1.0 and we give our very best to build on what we already have now to make it even better.
Evil Dragon is pretty experienced with sampler tech.


----------



## EvilDragon

That is good, Hendrik. Your commitment to this definitely shows. I will be watching how things develop 


Suggestion: EvilDragon loves detailed changelogs for every minor update (Reaper-style)!


----------



## funnybear

EvilDragon said:


> That is good, Hendrik. Your commitment to this definitely shows. I will be watching how things develop



... and we will be watching how things at NI and Kontakt don’t develop


----------



## EvilDragon

They are most certainly developing. As they have been for nearly 20 years. But let's not digress by comparing a very general-purpose sampler to a very purpose-specific sampler


----------



## Dominik

Dear OrchestralTools, 
I have some request:
Would it be possible to integrate stereo combined panners in the mixer eventually? It would make it much easier to mix close mics and spacial mics together. The problem is when you have a close mix over the whole stereo field you can´t place this recording on a virtual stage. You would need to move left and right channel seperately to make it fit to the location perceived in the spacial mics. I hope I could make this clear. Thx


----------



## Uiroo

jimsession said:


> he already dissed OT by saying they made a Minimum Viable Product haha


It's not a diss, and it's accurate 
Ask Christian Henson, he loves MVP's! (that is also not a diss)


----------



## dariusofwest

Congrats on the release! Question: Are a la carte instruments available from JXL? Wasn't sure.


----------



## Maxime Luft

We are so happy Junkie XL Brass is now out, can't wait to listen to all the compositions you guys make using the library.

Alex Moukala just dropped this video, speak to you guys soon.


----------



## Dominik

So far I like the sound but I badly miss a usable close mic. All close options have instruments coming from hard right and hard left. How am I supposed to use that in an orchestral context? Room information about the location of the players gets lost this way completely. In Berlin Brass it it the same but there at least are the ORTF mics which provide a relatively dry sound but with location of the instruments at the stage. 

I attended many mix sessions as an assistant for classical recordings and mostly there were used mono close mics panned to the actual position at the stage and then mixed to the AB or Tree mics.

I would be interested in how you other guys solve this or if you just don´t care mixing trumpets in coming from hard left or right to a stage sound.


----------



## StefVR

I am not a pro but can say the first impression out of the box from the mixes is mind blowing good for me.

Download with gigabit fibre was reasonable fast (roughly 40 min for the 300 gb) loading times frm a common sata ssd are also good. Interface is clear. Really great for a start!

Already like it better than the Spitfire GUI


----------



## PeterJCroissant

I’m loving the trumpet legatos, so juicy!
top work OT!


----------



## matthieuL

EvilDragon is experimented and his view is very valuable and appreciable. OT will benefit of his remarks to do a more amazing player for all of us (including himself). 
I don't like the idea of "competitors". If everybody in this market had work together since years (yes, I dream), imagine the tools we would have today !


----------



## shawnsingh

Quick 2 minutes of playthrough, improvising with Trumpets a6 and Trombones a12. The sound is far more natural and tight than I expected for a large brass group, and I love it! Consistency, as expected, is top notch which makes it a joy to improvise, and should be a great workflow to get good performances. At a quick glance of what I've played with so far, this is brilliant.

Congrats and THANK YOU to OT and Tom and the players that performed these samples.


----------



## Benjamin Duk

shawnsingh said:


> Quick 2 minutes of playthrough, improvising with Trumpets a6 and Trombones a12. The sound is far more natural and tight than I expected for a large brass group, and I love it! Consistency, as expected, is top notch which makes it a joy to improvise, and should be a great workflow to get good performances. At a quick glance of what I've played with so far, this is brilliant.
> 
> Congrats and THANK YOU to OT and Tom and the players that performed these samples.




Wow those fast trumpet legato runs sound great!


----------



## AEF

Eptesicus said:


> A bit more noodling (just doing this in case someone wants to hear it from an actual users fingers rather than the official promo stuff)
> 
> Again, raw a4 horns just played in, no tweaking. natural mid, tree and AB mics only.



It has a signature OT simulated legato to it that I'm not really the biggest fan of. The tone itself is lovely and the dynamics are fantastic.


----------



## Eptesicus

AEF said:


> It has a signature OT simulated legato to it that I'm not really the biggest fan of. The tone itself is lovely and the dynamics are fantastic.



Its real legato.


----------



## StefVR

I sooo much hope that this was not the last cooperation. I would front pay for strings right now.


----------



## Alex Niedt

Here's a little unofficial demo with JXL Brass & Berlin Special Bows, trying out the bottom dynamics. No additional processing or reverb used. I think JXL Brass is lovely, and working with the SINE Player is a pure joy.


----------



## Dominik

For all those interested in a little comparison of Berlin Brass and JXL Brass...
Generally JXLB seems to be more consistent and flat (not so many outbreaking RRs, more even sustains). The tone is a little different. It sounds like a recording of the same session (compatible) but with another attitude of the players. JXLB sounds much more powerful and determined IMO. Even the soft layers sound much more shiny and fierce than in Berlin Brass. There is however a little coloration in the mid frequency spectrum when compared to BB but I am not sure yet if this is better or worse. It´s just different. Could be that this is beneficial for a whole orchestra mix. Maybe not. Have to try. 

I think for my style of writing JXLB fits much better and the extra dynamic layer(s) are really great to have. I think the first tracks I produce will be all in FFF (can´t help it) until I am sick of it.

The velocity cross-fading works well for slow arcs but not so well for faster arcs. There seems to be some interpolation going on in the background which is audible when doing fast movements with the mod wheel. 

All in all, so far I can say I won´t need another Brass Library in the future.
Nice work OT and Tom! Thank you.


----------



## Benjamin Duk

AEF said:


> It has a signature OT simulated legato to it that I'm not really the biggest fan of. The tone itself is lovely and the dynamics are fantastic.



It's real legato recorded at every dynamic layer and for fast runs as well.


----------



## Eptesicus

Can anyone try the horns a4 patch.....am i going mad or have they labelled the sustains and soft sustains the wrong way round!!?

The soft sustain patch can definitly go slightly louder/brassier...

Also, Bb 2 in the soft sustains has a click/pop on the loop.

Its a lovely sounding library, but i get the impression it was slightly rushed to the finish line. I hope they will be going over it with a fine toothcomb in the coming weeks to fix pops in loops and dodgy legato transitions.


----------



## Peter Satera

Eptesicus said:


> Can anyone try the horns a4 patch.....am i going mad or have they labelled the sustains and soft sustains the wrong way round!!?
> 
> The soft sustain patch can definitly go slightly louder/brassier...


Interesting observation!
View attachment 2019-12-17 21-13-38.mp4


----------



## Eptesicus

Peter Satera said:


> Interesting observation!
> View attachment 2019-12-17 21-13-38.mp4


I am pretty sure they have them the wrong way around.


----------



## savagedog

Eptesicus said:


> Can anyone try the horns a4 patch.....am i going mad or have they labelled the sustains and soft sustains the wrong way round!!?
> 
> The soft sustain patch can definitly go slightly louder/brassier...
> 
> Also, Bb 2 in the soft sustains has a click/pop on the loop.
> 
> Its a lovely sounding library, but i get the impression it was slightly rushed to the finish line. I hope they will be going over it with a fine toothcomb in the coming weeks to fix pops in loops and dodgy legato transitions.


I am pretty sure the "soft" means the attack of the sustain compared to the other instruments.


----------



## borisb2

the sustains patch sounds brassier at lower levels .. the soft patch sounds softer at these levels


----------



## KEM

Can’t wait until everything is downloaded, we’ve had a massive snowstorm these past 2 days in St. Louis, great day to stay inside and mess around with JXL Brass!!


----------



## Ruffian Price

I'm still downloading but damn, everything about this just _makes sense._ Even the descriptive file names, definitely conceived by someone with the experience of having to prune mics from the SSD and wading through "Library_004.nkx" monoliths trying to guess what's needed


----------



## EvilDragon

Ruffian Price said:


> Even the descriptive file names, definitely conceived by someone with the experience of having to prune mics from the SSD and wading through "Library_004.nkx" monoliths trying to guess what's needed



In all honesty this is an option when encoding to Kontakt Player, to create NKX by subfolders, so things could be organized either by articulation (like Spitfire often do) or by mic position... But I digress


----------



## kmm08

If activation is required to use the SINE player on your computer (Mac), how do you de-activate the player if you were to move to a different systems/computer and don't want to lose your activation? Had this issue with Microsoft Office some years ago where they required activation, but had no way to deactivate without calling the company and getting them to restore the activation.


----------



## Loïc D

savagedog said:


> I am pretty sure the "soft" means the attack of the sustain compared to the other instruments.


Yes, if I remember one walkthrough, it was stated that soft means softer attack.

Been fiddling around with Trombones a3 only, but I did a lot of tests. Standalone only, OSX Mojave.

My main gripe with sound so far : on Close 1 mic, the pan is all over the place. Less on Close 2. No pb with all other mic positions. Mostly for staccatissimo. 
The set of articulations is solid. Staccato & staccatissimo are impressive.

You can still hear dynamic layers transitions, specially on loud dynamics, but there's no comparison with other libraries. 5 dynamic layers is really really great. This alone justifies the product.

Improvements (set to my own priority) :
- (average) Being able to set the preferred way to add arts. Even if I set it CC, every time I add an art, the new art is set to midi channel,
- (average) Being able to set the default mic(s). The first art is always set on close mic.
- (average) In CC switching mode, being able to freely set the CC value. Yes, I'd like to try to make it UACC compatible since I'm so used to this workflow
- (major) After Purge, reload samples per note played, not per full articulation, as Kontakt does.
- (minor) Being able to toggle Dyn on/off by midi CC. 

Besides, playing with DFD preload buffer has a huge effect on RAM. I'll investigate to find a great setting on my limited 16GB MBP. It's good to know for everyone : there shall be a perfect settings (and there are lots) for every computer.
Good to know : Sustains + LEG seems to take as much RAM as all the other arts added. Maybe there's some optimization here.

Download was quick and seamless (got hi speed fiber at home). When it seemed stalled I just waited and it resumed eventually.

The GUI is straightforward. Fonts are easy to read (yes, this is important!)
No crash, everything is quick, no RAM leak (take this, Chrome & Logic Pro).

This is really serious work, congratulations to all of you.
You deserve a glass of sekt.


----------



## Eptesicus

These are the best sampled trombones ive heard/played in my opinion.

The staccatisimo is super agile and sounds amazing.

This is just the 6 trombone and 4 horn patch, but still sounds ferocious.


----------



## jononotbono

OT_Tobias said:


> But of course it would be preferable to download to the right location in the first place



Well yes, I'd prefer this but the studio I work at has internet of 1gbs and I only have 90mbs at my place so it's definitely wise for me to download with my laptop at work and then take it back to my main computers!


----------



## jononotbono

Eptesicus said:


> These are the best sampled trombones ive heard/played in my opinion.
> 
> The staccatisimo is super agile and sounds amazing.
> 
> This is just the 6 trombone and 4 horn patch, but still sounds ferocious.



Man, I love it!


----------



## jimsession

Uiroo said:


> It's not a diss, and it's accurate
> Ask Christian Henson, he loves MVP's! (that is also not a diss)


okok i take it back!


----------



## zerostudios

Virtuoso said:


> I'm having an issue with downloads stalling. They get to a certain point and then just stop. There is no pause/resume button so the only option is to quit Sine and restart, at which point the downloads _appear_ to start again from the beginning - but they will get to 1/3 and then unpack and install. I've had to do this quit and resume with every download so far.



I'm having the same problem with stalling here as Virtuoso. The Zip files don't seem to be unpacking. If I stop Sine and restart, the existing downloads seem to start from scratch again. After 5 hours, I've managed to only download 7 instruments with only 2 mics. Is there a solution or a way to reset the download?


----------



## PeterJCroissant

zerostudios said:


> I'm having the same problem with stalling here as Virtuoso. The Zip files don't seem to be unpacking. If I stop Sine and restart, the existing downloads seem to start from scratch again. After 5 hours, I've managed to only download 7 instruments with only 2 mics. Is there a solution or a way to reset the download?


I don’t think they actually stop downloading, looks like it from the gui, but in the background they are still downloading? At least that’s happening to me, no remaining time but the bar does move very slowly.


----------



## Eptesicus

An old favorite, done with the a4 patch


----------



## jononotbono

Eptesicus said:


> An old favorite, done with the a4 patch


----------



## zerostudios

PeterJCroissant said:


> I don’t think they actually stop downloading, looks like it from the gui, but in the background they are still downloading? At least that’s happening to me, no remaining time but the bar does move very slowly.


In my case, the progress bar seems to go black, losing all "progress". So, yes, it stopped. I deleted the JSON file and then dowloaded a single mic single instrument OK, then started the remaining 6 instruments and now it stalls again. Never thought I'd be longing for the Continuata dowloader but here we are.


----------



## Zedcars

OT_Tobias said:


> But of course it would be preferable to download to the right location in the first place


But then you’re writing to the drive twice, no? Once to download, and again to unpack. I’d rather use an HHD to D/L and then write the unpacked files to my SSD writing to it once. Maybe that’s not even an issue, but seems like that’s SSD preservation 101.


----------



## Zedcars

zerostudios said:


> In my case, the progress bar seems to go black, losing all "progress". So, yes, it stopped. I deleted the JSON file and then dowloaded a single mic single instrument OK, then started the remaining 6 instruments and now it stalls again. Never thought I'd be longing for the Continuata dowloader but here we are.


Same here. I had to quit and restart to get it going again. I’m leaving it going overnight as I don’t have a super-fast connection. I’m expecting it to have stalled again in the night but it might just be a problem my end. However I feel like it should be able to cope with internet drop-outs and restart automatically.


----------



## PeterJCroissant

zerostudios said:


> In my case, the progress bar seems to go black, losing all "progress". So, yes, it stopped. I deleted the JSON file and then dowloaded a single mic single instrument OK, then started the remaining 6 instruments and now it stalls again. Never thought I'd be longing for the Continuata dowloader but here we are.


Ohh sorry to hear that... hmmm... I’m sure it’s just teething... persever.


----------



## PeterJCroissant

Is there a detailed manual also?


----------



## Architekton

Eptesicus said:


> An old favorite, done with the a4 patch



What happened at 0:13? That doesnt sound right at all.


----------



## turnerofwheels

I just can't get a decent connection--it's taking like 1-2 hours to download one mic position when it should take 10 minutes tops.
However, what I've downloaded so far, the hall positions for about half the instruments, sounds absolutely fabulous and it's going straight to my template (If there's some touch ups to be done that others are pointing out, that is perfectly normal in my experience with libraries of this size. Like, I'm still getting updates for competitors' brass libraries years after they were made).


----------



## Eptesicus

Anyone else using this with Cubase and finding that Cubase wont close properly after using SINE in a project? It just hangs rather than properly closes?


----------



## Real JXL

Dear Friends! The library is out now and we are all standing with you to get you the best experience of playing and programming.... My friend Conrad Pope and my conductor spend many lovely weeks together in New Zealand to record this Peter Jackson Score and we had a 42 piece brass band... Proper Berlioz style... And I would like to share this link with you why I needed this library and hopefully you too!


----------



## robgb

Eptesicus said:


> These are the best sampled trombones ive heard/played in my opinion.
> 
> The staccatisimo is super agile and sounds amazing.
> 
> This is just the 6 trombone and 4 horn patch, but still sounds ferocious.


Nice, but you can pick up Bravura Scoring Brass for $119 right now and I'm, frankly, not hearing a $400 difference.


----------



## Real JXL

Here another reason why I needed this library... Here a cue for Cameron/Rodriguez Alita.... Also Conducted by my friend Conrad Pope....


----------



## turnerofwheels

Eptesicus said:


> Anyone else using this with Cubase and finding that Cubase wont close properly after using SINE in a project? It just hangs rather than properly closes?


I'm using Cubase 10.5 so I figured I'd test your scenario--no problems here so far for me. Though in practice this will be running in VEP. I'll have to test that over the next couple days


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

When Orchestral Tools release the new store, will it be possible for me to buy just the JXL Trombones? They sound incredible and I'm always after better trombones, lol.


----------



## Real JXL

And here the last obvious reason... To have the sound to make this... I have it now and I thank OT for their patience and the players to stick with me to get the result that I wanted out of this library...

Me and OT love all feedback you might have and we will look into it for new creative decisions! Thank you for all honesty and real feedback! Its been a great ride! Big Hug! Tom and OT


----------



## Bernard Duc

Mahler's beginning of the 5th symphony solo trumpet! Since I heard some people complain about the trumpet sound in some of the demos I wanted to see by myself how it would behave in this very tricky solo part. I have to say that both the samples, and the player made a wonderful job at it!

There is a tiny bit of EQ as well as some reverb.

I would add that the samples by themselves are very "flat", but the 5 dynamics layers really give a lot of expressive possibility!

EDIT: correct file uploaded


----------



## jononotbono

So far got the Trumpets A6 downloaded and had a play with them. Not sure why people are bitching about them. They sound great! Well, they do to me.


----------



## richard kurek

jononotbono said:


> So far got the Trumpets A6 downloaded and had a play with them. Not sure why people are bitching about them. They sound great! Well, they do to me.


me also


----------



## luke_7

This is THE BEST BRASS LIBRARY PERIOD! OT and JXL team You have no idea how much I want to thank you for making my life soooooo easier.


----------



## jononotbono

Ok so I just tried out the Merge Mic Feature. I merged a Room Mic and a close Mic. Its all well and good Merging Mics to save on RAM but I have been very interested in how I get all the mics separated when it comes to delivering stems for it to be mixed in Surround from 5.1 - 13.1, Auro3D and Atmos.

So as I understand this, you merge the Mics and write music which is all fantastic due to the epic amount of RAM saved. Then, all of your Mics you merged are actually turned off (automatically after merging) and the levels you set are preserved which is very nice. This means when it comes to rendering out the audio and individual Mics to audio, you just turn off the Merged Mic you created and then turn on the original mics, route them to the respective outputs and away you go.

This is brilliant.


----------



## borisb2

Eptesicus said:


> An old favorite, done with the a4 patch


what happened to the legato between Bb-c-d towards the end (0.14) ? That sounds weird


----------



## turnerofwheels

Another perhaps minor point but--I'm quite happy with how I can install each instrument in a different location rather than everything having to be in the same directory. It's going to save me a lot of time reorganizing my sample libraries across my SSDs and then fixing my kontakt templates.


----------



## germancomponist

Dominik said:


> For all those interested in a little comparison of Berlin Brass and JXL Brass...
> Generally JXLB seems to be more consistent and flat (not so many outbreaking RRs, more even sustains). The tone is a little different. It sounds like a recording of the same session (compatible) but with another attitude of the players. JXLB sounds much more powerful and determined IMO. Even the soft layers sound much more shiny and fierce than in Berlin Brass. There is however a little coloration in the mid frequency spectrum when compared to BB but I am not sure yet if this is better or worse. It´s just different. Could be that this is beneficial for a whole orchestra mix. Maybe not. Have to try.



Maybe there was another conductor, or the same but with instructions from Tom? 
Alone the conductor is min. 50% of the result from a library ... .


----------



## jononotbono

One thing I have noticed is that in the Mixer, when I move a Fader and want to put it back to unity, usually pressing and holding CMD and clicking once returns the value to it's factory default (in other libraries and DAWs). That doesn't work in this and there is no numerical value to tell me where the fader is (unless I am missing something obvious of which I apologize for talking bollocks). Would be nice to have that.


----------



## jononotbono

Pressing and holding CMD whilst using mouse up and down does a "Fine Faders" thing for more Accuracy which is nice.


----------



## Taj Mikel

ProfoundSilence said:


> or they haven't sent you an email because they don't actually want you to download it yet, because they are getting all cylinders rolling XD.
> 
> they probably didn't predict we would be neurotically refreshing the webpage until there was a placeholder and downloading the link as soon as the website went live - LOL.


I mean, they said a product would be available to me on the 16th and it wasn't, and didn't send any communication explaining why. They're communicative on this third party forum, though. Seems like basic courtesy to at least send an email when you don't deliver a product that someone ordered on pre-order.


----------



## jcrosby

Eptesicus said:


> Anyone else using this with Cubase and finding that Cubase wont close properly after using SINE in a project? It just hangs rather than properly closes?



Logic's being a little quirky with it as well... What I'm seeing is if I trying and make a mic merge then delete it Logic immediately crashes. If I re-open then delete a mic mix I manually removed it's also an immediate crash... (To be fair though, this appears to be the incorrect way to remove mixes...)

Making a mic merge/mix is a little confusing at first.. Pretty sure I've got it stored but not completely sure yet, and didn't see a manual in the installers... Also before the torches and pitchforks come out I just want to reiterate this is a 1.0 release... Some bugs are inevitable... I'm confident they'll sort it soon as they're support has always been top shelf...

Anyhoo.. IT SOUNDS FRICKIN INSANELY GOOD! 🤩

And CPU use is ridiculously efficient. 😀


@OrchestralTools :

You might consider making a video clearly detailing best practices for making mic merges ASAP. It's pretty safe to assume this is going to be most people's first steps after playing through some of the patches.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Bernard Duc said:


> Mahler's beginning of the 5th symphony solo trumpet! Since I heard some people complain about the trumpet sound in some of the demos I wanted to see by myself how it would behave in this very tricky solo part. I have to say that both the samples, and the player made a wonderful job at it!
> 
> There is a tiny bit of EQ as well as some reverb.
> 
> I would add that the samples by themselves are very "flat", but the 5 dynamics layers really give a lot of expressive possibility!
> 
> EDIT: correct file uploaded


from my phone I felt like the 2nd half was a little dodgy on programming, but the first part was absolutely delicious.


----------



## korruptkey

jcrosby said:


> Logic's being a little quirky with it as well... What I'm seeing is if I trying and make a mic merge then delete it Logic immediately crashes. If I re-open then delete a mic mix I manually removed it's also an immediate crash... (To be fair though, this appears to be the incorrect way to remove mixes...)
> 
> Making a mic merge/mix is a little confusing at first.. Pretty sure I've got it stored but not completely sure yet, and didn't see a manual in the installers... Also before the torches and pitchforks come out I just want to reiterate this is a 1.0 release... Some bugs are inevitable... I'm confident they'll sort it soon as they're support has always been top shelf...
> 
> Anyhoo.. IT SOUNDS FRICKIN INSANELY GOOD! 🤩
> 
> And CPU use is ridiculously efficient. 😀
> 
> 
> @OrchestralTools :
> 
> You might consider making a video clearly detailing best practices for making mic merges ASAP. It's pretty safe to assume this is going to be most people's first steps after playing through some of the patches.




It would also be nice if OT could release a mic merge setting for Berlin Series to match the Berlin Inspire mix settings.


----------



## Virtuoso

Anyone having this issue?

I can't get the Sine player to respond to keyswitch C-2, whether it's triggered manually from a keyboard or driven from a MIDI track. All the others work fine and I can see the key C-2 moving in the UI (brown section at the bottom) but the player just ignores it for some reason. 

View attachment Sine_Keyswitch.mp4


----------



## ProfoundSilence

korruptkey said:


> It would also be nice if OT could release a mic merge setting for Berlin Series to match the Berlin Inspire mix settings.


your parents released this decades ago, it's called ears 2.0(unless you're vangaugh and hes down to 1.0)


----------



## borisb2

Real JXL said:


> Dear Friends! The library is out now and we are all standing with you to get you the best experience of playing and programming.... My friend Conrad Pope and my conductor spend many lovely weeks together in New Zealand to record this Peter Jackson Score and we had a 42 piece brass band... Proper Berlioz style... And I would like to share this link with you why I needed this library and hopefully you too!



greetings from summerly NZ .. worked on that one too - vfx though  .. dont forget Christian Rivers btw. 

.. congrats to JXL brass


----------



## muzark

Eptesicus said:


> Anyone else using this with Cubase and finding that Cubase wont close properly after using SINE in a project? It just hangs rather than properly closes?


YES, change something on sine player when playing and then cubase just dead. no any respond. I have to kill cubase without saving project.


----------



## Bernard Duc

ProfoundSilence said:


> from my phone I felt like the 2nd half was a little dodgy on programming, but the first part was absolutely delicious.


Do you mean the part starting at 0:28? Players usually tend to play this part shorter to leave space to the rest of the orchestra which started playing by then. But I will see tomorrow if I can improve it and then I will do a brass choral from the 2nd symphony.


----------



## Taj Mikel

OT_Tobias said:


> not at this time. Well, there is, but you'd loose your download progress... let me know to [email protected] if you want instructions.


Sorry guys, but ability to pause or cancel downloads seems absolutely fundamental and basic. Ability to select a folder where to place your download is also extremely basic and foundational functionality for any download utility.


----------



## Taj Mikel

SHANE TURNER said:


> Another perhaps minor point but--I'm quite happy with how I can install each instrument in a different location rather than everything having to be in the same directory. It's going to save me a lot of time reorganizing my sample libraries across my SSDs and then fixing my kontakt templates.


How are you selecting a specific folder? Didnt see that option in my UI or in the video from OT. Thanks!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Taj Mikel said:


> Sorry guys, but ability to pause or cancel downloads seems absolutely fundamental and basic. Ability to select a folder where to place your download is also extremely basic and foundational functionality for any download utility.


you're also talking about bloating an entire VST. 

no other vst even let's you download inside of it. A download utility has pausing. many downloads via browsers dont pause properly(they wont restart) so to imply that this is expected rather than appreciated is a bit disingenuine


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Taj Mikel said:


> How are you selecting a specific folder? Didnt see that option in my UI or in the video from OT. Thanks!


everytime you download a mic position or anything it prompts you.


----------



## Taj Mikel

ProfoundSilence said:


> everytime you download a mic position or anything it prompts you.


It prompted me for a drive, but not a folder.


----------



## Taj Mikel

ProfoundSilence said:


> you're also talking about bloating an entire VST.
> 
> no other vst even let's you download inside of it. A download utility has pausing. many downloads via browsers dont pause properly(they wont restart) so to imply that this is expected rather than appreciated is a bit disingenuine


It's genuine, because I did expect it. I don't know, technically, how a pause or cancel function could bloat the SINE player. I mean it has an entire tab dedicated to advertisements/blog posts, etc. :D


----------



## Taj Mikel

Taj Mikel said:


> It's genuine, because I did expect it. I don't know, technically, how a pause or cancel function could bloat the SINE player. I mean it has an entire tab dedicated to advertisements/blog posts, etc. :D


My apologies, that tab is the store tab. But my point stands, cancel won't bloat SINE, and I don't think pause would either.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Taj Mikel said:


> It's genuine, because I did expect it. I don't know, technically, how a pause or cancel function could bloat the SINE player. I mean it has an entire tab dedicated to advertisements/blog posts, etc. :D


displaying webpage vs a bunch of intricate network and file functionality so that once every 6 months someone can pause is not effifficent


----------



## Taj Mikel

shawnsingh said:


> Quick 2 minutes of playthrough, improvising with Trumpets a6 and Trombones a12. The sound is far more natural and tight than I expected for a large brass group, and I love it! Consistency, as expected, is top notch which makes it a joy to improvise, and should be a great workflow to get good performances. At a quick glance of what I've played with so far, this is brilliant.
> 
> Congrats and THANK YOU to OT and Tom and the players that performed these samples.



THAT IS EXCITING :D:D:D:D


----------



## Manuel Stumpf

As far as I understood exiting SINE pauses the download and resumes when restarted. Have not tried this myself though.
OT has mentioned the folder structure itself is fix at the moment and only the drive can be changed. Might be on the roadmap for later.


----------



## TintoL

Can any of you guys please share what is the ram foot print of these patches?

Thanks in advance...


----------



## Taj Mikel

Manuel Stumpf said:


> As far as I understood exiting SINE pauses the download and resumes when restarted. Have not tried this myself though.
> OT has mentioned the folder structure itself is fix at the moment and only the drive can be changed. Might be on the roadmap for later.


I don't know anything about the technical hurdles involved with allowing the user to select a download folder, but for a player that is supposed to be about workflow and ease, it seems very odd that you wouldnt be able to save the samples into the existing folder architecture that users obviously have created for themselves.


----------



## Taj Mikel

ProfoundSilence said:


> displaying webpage vs a bunch of intricate network and file functionality so that once every 6 months someone can pause is not effifficent


Sure, but cancel?? Cmon!! xD


----------



## Taj Mikel

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> I made a little screencast about moving instruments to another system.
> You can simply lead SINE with the "+Collection" button to the new location.
> 
> Maybe that helps in your situation as well, as it also gives you some insight into the file structure:
> 
> 
> 
> Best,
> Hendrik



Thank you Hendrik!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I like the auto folder placement on drive. it makes sure its not going to randomly not find the folder... it's the same structure on any drive. that said, if you o ly have 1 drive does it even ask you?


----------



## louderup

Closing the plugin window and reopening it takes me back to the Library tab, whether I was on Performance, Mixer, or Options. PC, Ableton.

Would like for the plugin to remember which page I was on. It's annoying being in the expanded mixer view and having to click over twice to get back each time I reopen the window.


----------



## louderup

TintoL said:


> Can any of you guys please share what is the ram foot print of these patches?
> 
> Thanks in advance...



Horns a12 Sustains with 6 mic positions loaded and all dynamic layers is only showing 185 MB of RAM in the interface, however Sustains + Legato with the same mics, dynamic layers, and nothing purged is showing 4.1 GB.


----------



## NoamL

Bernard Duc said:


> Mahler's beginning of the 5th symphony solo trumpet! Since I heard some people complain about the trumpet sound in some of the demos I wanted to see by myself how it would behave in this very tricky solo part. I have to say that both the samples, and the player made a wonderful job at it!
> 
> There is a tiny bit of EQ as well as some reverb.
> 
> I would add that the samples by themselves are very "flat", but the 5 dynamics layers really give a lot of expressive possibility!
> 
> EDIT: correct file uploaded



I'm not even a brass player, and I can tell the lack of repetition/multitongue samples is really hurting here. You need samples with true multitongue if you want to achieve that kind of writing. Of course, that's not the only thing brass players do and JXLB sounds good at many other tasks.


----------



## jononotbono

NoamL said:


> I'm not even a brass player, and I can tell the lack of repetition/multitongue samples is really hurting here. You need samples with true multitongue if you want to achieve that kind of writing. Of course, that's not the only thing brass players do and JXLB sounds good at many other tasks.



So, what you’re telling me is that I need to buy Berlin Brass as well? 😂


----------



## Thor

jononotbono said:


> So, what you’re telling me is that I need to buy Berlin Brass as well? 😂


Luke, buy everything, duh. I can’t believe i had to even say it.


----------



## NoamL

jononotbono said:


> So, what you’re telling me is that I need to buy Berlin Brass as well? 😂



Well that was CSB...  and here's Hollywood Brass + some So Cal Hall...

Just dunno why people would try to use this library for classical style writing. yes I remember the idea about "a library even John Williams would use," but what this actually turned out to be is a library that's great at big bold post-Inception brass writing. All of the demos (and like someone said earlier we should all take demos with a grain of salt because even demo writers are still learning to use the instruments) showed off a really nice beefy low brass sound that's hardly available elsewhere.


----------



## prodigalson

Nils Neumann said:


> Very flattering, thank you!



Agreed, nice writing...but trumpets playing for 8 bars above the staff at mp right out the gate? Good luck!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

NoamL said:


> I'm not even a brass player, and I can tell the lack of repetition/multitongue samples is really hurting here. You need samples with true multitongue if you want to achieve that kind of writing. Of course, that's not the only thing brass players do and JXLB sounds good at many other tasks.


that actually sounds fake, the lack of dynamics destroys the phrasing and is inherently unmusical.


----------



## NoamL

ProfoundSilence said:


> that actually sounds fake, the lack of dynamics destroys the phrasing and is inherently unmusical.



I spent 5 minutes on it. Just trying to demonstrate how multitongues sound. You can't use repeated staccatos because trumpet players don't go tatatata. They go takataka.


----------



## muzark

NEVER NEVER NEVER click articulation area when playing. I tried several times cubase dead once you click articulation area when playing. So nothing saved....................

AND Instance: Load function causes cubase dead for some times in vst version


----------



## germancomponist

Gibson vs Fender vs what?


----------



## Zhao Shen

Mike Fox said:


> For anyone who's having second thoughts due to the demos, don't be so discouraged!
> 
> If there's one thing I've learned from the last 10 years of buying sample libraries, demos are the very last reference for judging a library (i usually avoid them to begin with).
> 
> Everyone composes differently, and everyone's workflow is different. This is obvious, but it's also the undeniable truth that the exact same library can bring forth varying results, depending on WHO the artist is. The composition, mix, and utilization of an instrument can screw with your perception!
> 
> I think if you bought the library based on the naked samples in the walkthrough, you'll probably be happy with it. Imo, walkthroughs are the most accurate representation of any given library, not the demos.
> 
> 2 cents.


Well, you can't really fault people for balking when they hear tracks that are supposed to be salesman pitches sound worse than existing libraries.

Everything you said is correct. But I fundamentally disagree with your logic of "don't worry if it sounds meh in the demos, you will probably be able to make it sound better!" That's like saying "hey don't worry if this knife I'm trying to sell to you is dull, if you're a skilled chef then you'll be able to make it do great things!" 

These demos are supposed to show us what the library is capable of, and those who are discouraged by them have plenty of reason to be.


----------



## jononotbono

Jus


NoamL said:


> Well that was CSB...



Oh I haven’t even listened to your CSB example yet. Berlin Brass would be the obvious contender to blend with JXLB as they are both Teldex and BB has multi tongue. So what you’re saying is is that I should buy Berlin Brass AND CSB? 😂


----------



## Mike Fox

Zhao Shen said:


> But I fundamentally disagree with your logic of "don't worry if it sounds meh in the demos, you will probably be able to make it sound better!"



Wtf? That's not what i said at all.


----------



## dylanlabelle

Anyone running into instruments not loading in-RAM when you drop them in the articulations list?
The counter will glow red but just stays at 0.00 MB.


----------



## germancomponist

Zhao Shen said:


> ..... These demos are supposed to show us what the library is capable of, and those who are discouraged by them have plenty of reason to be.


Mike said: The walk through videos showed what is possible to get with this library. I think all these demo composers should also learn the new player and also test all the possibilities with the different microphone positions. There was obviously not enough time for this, which is why these demos don't really sound good in the mix.

I think this is what Mike means, and me too.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

NoamL said:


> I spent 5 minutes on it. Just trying to demonstrate how multitongues sound. You can't use repeated staccatos because trumpet players don't go tatatata. They go takataka.


typically(you have berlin brass so you know this hopefully) you have to turn off random RR and it usually has some of that built into the RR. 

I havent had time to even download jxl but I doubt they stopped ordering the RR that way, considering it sounds like berlin strings spiccato were recorded with the same strategy.

even msb sounds better with linear rather than random.


----------



## CT

NoamL said:


> I spent 5 minutes on it. Just trying to demonstrate how multitongues sound. You can't use repeated staccatos because trumpet players don't go tatatata. They go takataka.



Quite right, Noam! Hollywood Brass is very musically convincing in its phrasing, there. Unless developers decide they want to record differently tongued staccatos that can be assembled into phrases (which sounds like a dumb way to have to work), real multi-tongues will be needed.

Benny Oschmann's Berlin Brass demo has some pretty convincing examples done, as far as I can tell by the articulation list, without actual multi-tongue samples, but there are still spots where the natural flow between the notes that should be there clearly isn't. If the round robins really are sampled in such a way that accounts for the difference in tonguing, it's a good idea, but doesn't get all the way there in my opinion.


----------



## Mike Fox

germancomponist said:


> Mike said: The walk through videos showed what is possible to get with this library.



That was basically my main point. Walkthrough videos are usually a much more accurate representation of a library than demos are. 

With demos, there are too many factors in play to make a solid judgement (how the composer is using the patches, other instruments interacting with the library, the mix and composition itself, post processing, etc.) 

It's like judging a movie based on the trailer. I've seen some movies that had amazing trailers, but the movie was crap. I've also seen some movies that i ended up loving that had poor trailers. Similarly, I've bought sample libraries based off the demos and ended up hating the library, and vice versa. It really can go both ways, and that's why i usually avoid demos altogether when I'm investigating a library. They can cloud your judgement!

With a walkthrough, everything is much more exposed, and its flaws can't be covered up as well. It's much easier to make an educated guess if you're going to like a library or not. 

So, If you like what you hear in a walkthrough, you'll probably enjoy the library (unless the playability is shit, lol!). 

That's my logic.


----------



## 5Lives

Are most folks downloading all the mics already? I have only downloaded the Basic Kit so far.


----------



## turnerofwheels

Taj Mikel said:


> It prompted me for a drive, but not a folder.



Er, yeah, that's what I meant, drive not individual folder. Between my two SSDs that aren't already filled up I have just enough space between them to cover the library and leave a safe amount of free space. Convenient for me that it's layed out this way


----------



## ProfoundSilence

miket said:


> Quite right, Noam! Hollywood Brass is very musically convincing in its phrasing, there. Unless developers decide they want to record differently tongued staccatos that can be assembled into phrases (which sounds like a dumb way to have to work), real multi-tongues will be needed.
> 
> Benny Oschmann's Berlin Brass demo has some pretty convincing examples done, as far as I can tell by the articulation list, without actual multi-tongue samples, but there are still spots where the natural flow between the notes that should be there clearly isn't. If the round robins really are sampled in such a way that accounts for the difference in tonguing, it's a good idea, but doesn't get all the way there in my opinion.


there are multi tongued triplets and 16ths in Berlin brass.

I did have examples of this somewhere on the forum, I'm not at the computer right now but I'm sure a search for posts containing "tonguing staccatissimo" by me.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

5Lives said:


> Are most folks downloading all the mics already? I have only downloaded the Basic Kit so far.


hopefully i left it downloading before leaving for work. 

if it goes uninterrupted it has like 13 hours total to download XD


----------



## Thundercat

muzark said:


> Feel like they are in a rush. Should have done everything properly and get every walk through video prepared before pre-order announcement rather than do all of this in a rush time.


Probably this is the drop dead date - what with Christmas and all...they had to get it done...


----------



## Raphioli

5Lives said:


> Are most folks downloading all the mics already? I have only downloaded the Basic Kit so far.


I'm in the process of downloading everything


----------



## Taj Mikel

a6 trumpet patch with all unprocessed mic positions had a footprint of 5.2gb. I merged all of those mic positions (close 1 and 2, mid, tree, ab, sur 1 and 2) and it reduced the RAM footprint to 755mb. That's a decrease of EIGHTY SIX PERCENT. Very impressive performance there.


----------



## jononotbono

Raphioli said:


> I'm in the process of downloading everything



Same here. Hopefully when I get to the studio a nice present will be waiting for me. Can't see the point in messing about here. All or nothing haha


----------



## Taj Mikel

The legato is very playable


----------



## Taj Mikel

yargh. Tuning issue in the a6 trumpets legato transition between e and f4


----------



## muzark

Just post this to report font issue @OrchestralTools


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I think I'll create two separate sustains for different legato transitions. 

ugg I cant wait to get home damnit lol. 

I will load all instruments and articulations on a single mic in an empty instance of reaper, record the total usage, and activate a 2nd mic to see how much the entire library takes in terms of ram


----------



## ProfoundSilence

muzark said:


> Just post this to report font issue @OrchestralTools


looks like my avatar infected your installations and is using the corndog font instead of the pulled pork font. 

you should try washing your plastic ware and see if the problem persists


----------



## Taj Mikel

muzark said:


> Just post this to report font issue @OrchestralTools


You lucky dog you get fancy fonts!


----------



## Taj Mikel

The staccatismo sound so good.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Taj Mikel said:


> You lucky dog you get fancy fonts!


I got enough corn dogs to go around


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Taj Mikel said:


> The staccatismo sound so good.


before I went to sleep, I tried layering a3 trumpets 8va above the a3 bass bones staccatisimo and disabled the top dynamic from trumpets and it was a good sounding combo.


----------



## jcrosby

GOOD GOD! This thing's *EFFICIENT!!*

I've got 3 simultaneous articulations playing octaves in the same instance on a MacBook Pro and it barely registers on Logic's meter. Ark would be showing between 25-30% on a single core.
This would make working on my laptop totally feasible, can't wait until the Ark's are ported. 😀

@Hendrik-Schwarzer - First of all well done! And congratulations on finishing the project...

*Second*: Any chance you might make it possible to merge multiple articulations together to a single mix?

Merging a few _sketching_ pads would be incredibly useful for those of us who work frequently on laptop... It would also make setting up sketch templates quicker, and much more cross-compatible between DAWs... Not to mention make it significantly less painful working in DAWs that are notoriously inefficient like Live / Bitwig, etc...

Thanks again and congrats...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jcrosby said:


> GOOD GOD! This thing's *EFFICIENT!!*
> 
> I've got 3 simultaneous articulations playing octaves in the same instance on a MacBook Pro and it barely registers on Logic's meter. Ark would be showing between 25-30% on a single core.
> This would make working on my laptop totally feasible, can't wait until the Ark's are ported. 😀
> 
> @Hendrik-Schwarzer - First of all well done!
> Second of all any chance you might make it possible to merge multiple articulations together?
> Merging a few sketching pads would be incredibly useful for those of us who work frequently on laptop... Would also make setting up sketch templates much quicker, and much more cross-compatible between DAWs...


that's interesting... maybe it would have to be forced down to the lowest common dynamic layers and round Robin's but it would he interesting. similiar to how alex P. made his 'adventure brass/caspian" styled patches?


----------



## jcrosby

ProfoundSilence said:


> that's interesting... maybe it would have to be forced down to the lowest common dynamic layers and round Robin's but it would he interesting. similiar to how alex P. made his 'adventure brass/caspian" styled patches?



Dynamics layers would actually be fine, and space isn't so much an issue for me as much as it being about CPU efficiency...

I'd love to be able sketch in Live, (although trying to move to Bitwig). Unfortunately both DAWs are pretty poor with CPU resources when it comes to VIs... (At least on the mac side...)


----------



## 5Lives

Is there something you need to do to activate certain mic positions? I downloaded close and tree, but when I load up the solo horn, it has tree on by default and seems like close is off, but not sure how to activate it.


----------



## Taj Mikel

5Lives said:


> Is there something you need to do to activate certain mic positions? I downloaded close and tree, but when I load up the solo horn, it has tree on by default and seems like close is off, but not sure how to activate it.


Hope this helps! I've got all the individual mics both turned off and muted in this screenshot. The merged mix is on and solo is enabled (thats why all the others are muted).


----------



## Benjamin Duk

This might be a silly question guys but how do I play 2 instruments at once? I can’t find where to change the second slot number to share midi 1. 

They both share the output 1/2, but only hearing audio from slot 1.


----------



## 5Lives

Taj Mikel said:


> Hope this helps! I've got all the individual mics both turned off and muted in this screenshot. The merged mix is on and solo is enabled (thats why all the others are muted).



Thank you! That was it! Those ON / OFF buttons look so out of place and disconnected from the channels. Totally missed them.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

you click the number next to the name of the instrument(probably says [2] Trombones a6. it's a srop down for midi channel


----------



## Virtuoso

Benjamin Duk said:


> This might be a silly question guys but how do I play 2 instruments at once? I can’t find where to change the second slot number to share midi 1.
> 
> They both share the output 1/2, but only hearing audio from slot 1.


Just click the number - eg '01 Trumpets a6'. Click the '01' and change it to whatever channel you want.


----------



## Taj Mikel

5Lives said:


> Thank you! That was it! Those ON / OFF buttons look so out of place and disconnected from the channels. Totally missed them.


Awesome good to hear! I missed them at first too!


----------



## Taj Mikel

OT support said giving ability to select your download folder was a priority. Awesome!


----------



## Benjamin Duk

@ProfoundSilence @Virtuoso Thank you! OMG I was looking all over for this last night and could not find it. I was clicking on the name etc. This should be made clearer as I thought it was just a list number and not clickable. What threw me off is that in some demos they had different numbers and were playing together but were obviously routed out through separate midi channels.

Also I agree with @5Lives , that the ON/OFF feels a bit disconnected from the channels.

This player though is fantastic! Well done OT!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

The official documentation on the website for the sign player has a lot of this information, of course I only know that because I was waiting after the website went up before I could download so I had nothing better to do


----------



## Taj Mikel

ProfoundSilence said:


> The official documentation on the website for the sign player has a lot of this information, of course I only know that because I was waiting after the website went up before I could download so I had nothing better to do


Linking in case it hasnt been posted here





__





General Topics - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


Common questions and support documentation




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com


----------



## Eptesicus

jcrosby said:


> GOOD GOD! This thing's *EFFICIENT!!*
> 
> I've got 3 simultaneous articulations playing octaves in the same instance on a MacBook Pro and it barely registers on Logic's meter. Ark would be showing between 25-30% on a single core.
> This would make working on my laptop totally feasible, can't wait until the Ark's are ported. 😀
> 
> @Hendrik-Schwarzer - First of all well done! And congratulations on finishing the project...
> 
> *Second*: Any chance you might make it possible to merge multiple articulations together to a single mix?
> 
> Merging a few _sketching_ pads would be incredibly useful for those of us who work frequently on laptop... It would also make setting up sketch templates quicker, and much more cross-compatible between DAWs... Not to mention make it significantly less painful working in DAWs that are notoriously inefficient like Live / Bitwig, etc...
> 
> Thanks again and congrats...



Yeh, the cup footprint/usage is tiny. I don't know how they got it to work so efficiently compared with other libraries, especially considering how many layers / voices there are.


----------



## Eptesicus

Virtuoso said:


> Anyone having this issue?
> 
> I can't get the Sine player to respond to keyswitch C-2, whether it's triggered manually from a keyboard or driven from a MIDI track. All the others work fine and I can see the key C-2 moving in the UI (brown section at the bottom) but the player just ignores it for some reason.
> 
> View attachment Sine_Keyswitch.mp4



Yes. I have to change the key switch range everytime. Then it's fine.

Hilarious that it is the default position that doesnt work!


----------



## Virtuoso

Eptesicus said:


> Yes. I have to change the key switch range everytime. Then it's fine.
> 
> Hilarious that it is the default position that doesnt work!


You're right - just wiggling the range selector makes it work, but when it first loads even clicking C-2 on the UI itself gets ignored. I've reported it to support anyway so hopefully they can sort this out.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Eptesicus said:


> Yes. I have to change the key switch range everytime. Then it's fine.
> 
> Hilarious that it is the default position that doesnt work!


if this is the least of the worries it's going to go down as the smoothest launch of a sampler/rompler in recent memory

the idea that you can just add articulations and it'll create key switches is effin incredible. The mic remote feature is also incredible. The mic merge feature is voodoo. 

this is honestly a very surreal moment in VI history


----------



## shawnsingh

Well, I'm done playing around for today.

I've stuck with natural Tree and AB mics at this time. I don't even feel the need to try any other mic positions, I like this combo. What are other people's preferences so far about mic positions? How do you like the AMXL ones versus the natural ones?

Tuba + Cimbassi with Bass Trombones transposed an octave higher is a killer combo with the tree/AB natural mics. Growly and solid.


----------



## purple

Can we move some of the discussion to a new thread or just RTFM? Don't mean to be mean but I think a lot of this is for support email inboxes not forum threads. I think we should keep this thread focused on demos, discussion, reviews, impressions of the quality of the library...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

purple said:


> Can we move some of the discussion to a new thread or just RTFM? Don't mean to be mean but I think a lot of this is for support email inboxes not forum threads. I think we should keep this thread focused on demos, discussion, reviews, impressions of the quality of the library...



as someone who is stuck at work, I'm happy to answer support tickets

as long as they are answerable based on my 10 minutes at my pc and from the support page


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

Did a very quick mockup of a part of Ride Of The Valkyries:



These are all AMXL tree mic´s

EDIT: here´s a version with less reverb


----------



## Benjamin Duk

ProfoundSilence said:


> if this is the least of the worries it's going to go down as the smoothest launch of a sampler/rompler in recent memory
> 
> the idea that you can just add articulations and it'll create key switches is effin incredible. The mic remote feature is also incredible. The mic merge feature is voodoo.
> 
> this is honestly a very surreal moment in VI history



Yup, this is by far the best player I've used. Kontakt has more features currently, but if OT keeps this up I see only good things ahead.


----------



## Eptesicus

ProfoundSilence said:


> if this is the least of the worries it's going to go down as the smoothest launch of a sampler/rompler in recent memory
> 
> the idea that you can just add articulations and it'll create key switches is effin incredible. The mic remote feature is also incredible. The mic merge feature is voodoo.
> 
> this is honestly a very surreal moment in VI history



Agreed. It isnt a big issue. Especially as moving the keyswitch matrix is as simple as dragging it anywhere you want!

There are more annoying ones, like it not letting Cubase exit properly.

Also, they do need to go through things with more of a fine toothcomb as well, as there are some dodgy transitions/intonation issues here and there and few pops and clicks on certain notes/dynamic layers. Nothing too serious, but those things will get annoying fast if not fixed. If those things stay in it and someone pays full price, i can see people/pros being very annoyed.

Overall, it is as expected. It was obvious it was a sprint/rush to the finish line and that there would be a few issues. The real important thing is how quickly they act on getting things fixed and updated.

Overall i'm pretty pleased. In overall tone/sound, i think its the nicest sounding brass library on the market. It also has the best trombones VST wise as well i think. The legato is functional and pretty much as good as other libraries, but it doesnt make any real advancement in that area which is a shame. The staccatisimos are VERY good and make writing fast passages a breeze.

If they release a free content update with trills, flutters and maybe a solo bass trombone and horns a2, i will be a very happy bunny :D.


----------



## Bluemount Score

GuitarG said:


> Did a very quick mockup of a part of Ride Of The Valkyries:
> 
> 
> 
> These are all AMXL tree mic´s



Oof, I think this short track has waaay too much reverb tail. Also I think more close mic would be better.


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

Bluemount Score said:


> Oof, I think this short track has waaay too much reverb tail. Also I think more close mic would be better.


Yes, working within a trailer template so all reverbs are pushed up a bit more than they should 
Was working with this song, so just dropped in JXL Brass


----------



## Eptesicus

GuitarG said:


> Yes, working within a trailer template so all reverbs are pushed up a bit more than they should
> Was working with this song, so just dropped in JXL Brass



I find many of the mics are so ambient, you really dont need much reverb. 

Which is good, because the sound of the hall is lovely.


----------



## meradium

GuitarG said:


> Did a very quick mockup of a part of Ride Of The Valkyries:
> 
> 
> 
> These are all AMXL tree mic´s




Hm... Sounds a little bit like Horns of Doom Reloaded, no?

I think this really comes down to taste. But I have the fear that soon we will all have to listen to even more Monster Brass sections all over the place. Just like the trend to have a gimbal and timelapse for _everything_ in movies.


----------



## Loïc D

I think the 5th layer is really incredibly loud and shall be seldom used.
The 4th one is already very loud.

For a more realistic rendering, one should be very careful in riding the modwheel.
CC1 over 80 would be already an ordeal for brass players 
(I'm no brass player but I attend to a lot of live concerts and I carefully look at the face of the brass players after loud passages. Like good'ol vu-meters, they go red.)

So, my 2 cents, CC1 should stay around 50.

Or if you don't plan to go _ffff_, disable the loudest layer. There's still 4 layers and plenty of fun.


----------



## nas

GuitarG said:


> Did a very quick mockup of a part of Ride Of The Valkyries:
> 
> 
> 
> These are all AMXL tree mic´s
> 
> EDIT: here´s a version with less reverb





Would be great to hear that with the unprocessed mics and perhaps just slightly smaller sections.


----------



## Benjamin Duk

LowweeK said:


> I think the 5th layer is really incredibly loud and shall be seldom used.
> The 4th one is already very loud.
> 
> For a more realistic rendering, one should be very careful in riding the modwheel.
> CC1 over 80 would be already an ordeal for brass players
> (I'm no brass player but I attend to a lot of live concerts and I carefully look at the face of the brass players after loud passages. Like good'ol vu-meters, they go red.)
> 
> So, my 2 cents, CC1 should stay around 50.
> 
> Or if you don't plan to go _ffff_, disable the loudest layer. There's still 4 layers and plenty of fun.



The great thing about this player is that you can turn off the Dynamic Layers. This is so useful if you don't want to hit those FFF layers.


----------



## tokatila

GuitarG said:


> Did a very quick mockup of a part of Ride Of The Valkyries:



Wow, that's like Afterburner powered Valkyries with Homing Missiles attached to them...

I'm getting the feeling that we are now at the end of some line.


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

nas said:


> Would be great to hear that with the unprocessed mics and perhaps just slightly smaller sections.


Ok. Downloading unprocessed mics at the moment. Will try to upload later today. Sections are small-ish already. Trumpets a3, Horns a4, Bones a6, B-Bones a3, 1 Tuba


----------



## Consona

My impressions so far, 1) sounds awesome to have 5 dyn layers, but in reality you'd use 3 for like 90% of the time unless you want everything to sound like ultra-Inception. 2) the library needs some more close mics, everything I've heard sounds rather ambient. 3) The library really sounds like a bee hive, dunno if its demos using the processed mixes or the nature of this lib.
Curious to hear more demos.


----------



## savagedog

[/QUOTE]


dylanlabelle said:


> Anyone running into instruments not loading in-RAM when you drop them in the articulations list?
> The counter will glow red but just stays at 0.00 MB.


Check you asio settings


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

tokatila said:


> Wow, that's like Afterburner powered Valkyries with Homing Missiles attached to them...
> 
> I'm getting the feeling that we are now at the end of some line.



😂😂 might have been writing a little too much trailer music lately. Will upload a little less hyped version later


----------



## Zero&One

Benjamin Duk said:


> The great thing about this player is that you can turn off the Dynamic Layers. This is so useful if you don't want to hit those FFF layers.



I've not heard the other 4 layers yet. Have people disabled them by accident


----------



## nas

GuitarG said:


> Ok. Downloading unprocessed mics at the moment. Will try to upload later today. Sections are small-ish already. Trumpets a3, Horns a4, Bones a6, B-Bones a3, 1 Tuba



Great! It will be interesting to hear what can be achieved just with messing around with mic combos. I remember JXL saying on his youtube cast that the AMJXL mixes are quite heavily processed including adding a little distortion/saturation to almost making it sound like a synth square wave and insanely loud layers and large sections - probably cool - for Mad Max but I think this library has so much more to offer. So far most of the demos posted seems to be with the AMJXL mixes and it's a very different approach to rendering a convincing Wagner etc..


----------



## Benjamin Duk

James H said:


> I've not heard the other 4 layers yet. Have people disabled them by accident



I think people are just getting used to the library. I'm sure some more tame demos will come through soon


----------



## louderup

GuitarG said:


> 😂😂 might have been writing a little too much trailer music lately. Will upload a little less hyped version later


I really liked it (the one with less verb).


----------



## ProfoundSilence

dont worry I'm going to absolutely be using close mics. 

I'll probably use 2 merges in my template


----------



## Benjamin Duk

If I wanted to create a traditional John Williams style mic setup what do you guys suggest?

Using the raw Tree and AB mics both at default settings?


----------



## Alex Niedt

James H said:


> I've not heard the other 4 layers yet. Have people disabled them by accident


Got lost pages ago, but I made a demo with mainly the bottom two dynamic layers. It's the AMXL Close + Tree mics. No additional processing.


----------



## shawnsingh

LowweeK said:


> I carefully look at the face of the brass players after loud passages. Like good'ol vu-meters, they go red.


----------



## Dominik

germancomponist said:


> Maybe there was another conductor, or the same but with instructions from Tom?
> Alone the conductor is min. 50% of the result from a library ... .


I totally agree. Normally the conductor interprets the music. He tells the musicians how to play. I am sure that Tom spoke to the musicians at least once and made clear that he wants power from them. Brass is all about power IMO and this library is a Ferrari. And yes, a Ferrari can also drive slowly but sounds good even more then.


----------



## Loïc D

Alex Niedt said:


> Got lost pages ago, but I made a demo with mainly the bottom two dynamic layers. It's the AMXL Close + Tree mics. No additional processing.




Thanks Alex, this shows the true (huge) potential of this library.

Once everyone get used to roll down the modwheel, we'll hear plenty of good stuff.


----------



## Dominik

Hey guys, 
I compared all the trombones sections and played sustains in FF in all but the Trombones a6 sound different and quieter than all the other sections. I took mainly the AMXL Tree mic.
Can anyone confirm?


----------



## emanon

I'm quite confused by the Purge function. 
Once purged, only the required samples are supposed to get loaded, and I should be seeing the RAM usage gradually increasing as I play more notes, right?
However, SINE player seems to be loading all samples at once.

In the release day live Tom said like this -
"The purge button works exactly as people would expect" 
"The purge button unloads everything and when you start playing the notes it starts to load the notes you're playing." 
"And this keeps the memory usage very lean."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNTvpp5hk88&t=2055

Sounds cool, this is what I expect from all modern samplers, the samples are incrementally loaded only as needed that saves much unneeded memory!

In reality what I'm seeing is not really that.
The purge button brings the RAM usage down, but when I play just one note, the RAM usage jumps up like a skyrocket to hundreds of MB, if not reaching GB. 
It looks like all samples are loaded at the moment a single note is played.

Anyone seeing this? 

I pretty much rely on the purge function to save the memory consumption, it's been a part of my workflow.
Is there a plan this to be improved?


----------



## Loïc D

emanon said:


> In reality what I'm seeing is not really that.
> The purge button brings the RAM usage down, but when I play just one note, the RAM usage jumps up like a skyrocket to hundreds of MB, if not reaching GB.
> It looks like all samples are loaded at the moment a single note is played.
> 
> Anyone seeing this?


Yes, actually after purge, the used articulations are fully loaded, whatever the notes played.
But if you don't play with the articulation, it's not loaded (seemed to me yesterday, need to check again to be sure).
IIRC, someone from OT wrote here that purge function will benefit soon from refinements.
Being limited on RAM, purging is also vital to me


----------



## Dominik

louderup said:


> Horns a12 Sustains with 6 mic positions loaded and all dynamic layers is only showing 185 MB of RAM in the interface, however Sustains + Legato with the same mics, dynamic layers, and nothing purged is showing 4.1 GB.


This is typical also for spitfire libraries. I presume it is because when playing legato more samples have to be in RAM. Furthermore the total amount of samples is much higher in a legato patch.


----------



## Eptesicus

Dominik said:


> This is typical also for spitfire libraries. I presume it is because when playing legato more samples have to be in RAM. Furthermore the total amount of samples is much higher in a legato patch.



Yeh, and with legato transitions done for every layer, the sample content must be huge.


----------



## Dominik

5Lives said:


> Are most folks downloading all the mics already? I have only downloaded the Basic Kit so far.


I have doenloaded them all and sorted out TREE, SUR 1, AMXL MID, AMXL SUR, AMXL ROOM+SUR
No, I have around 180 GB which is reasonable IMO


----------



## emanon

LowweeK said:


> Yes, actually after purge, the used articulations are fully loaded, whatever the notes played.
> But if you don't play with the articulation, it's not loaded (seemed to me yesterday, need to check again to be sure).
> IIRC, someone from OT wrote here that purge function will benefit soon from refinements.
> Being limited on RAM, purging is also vital to me


Yeah, hopefully this will get addressed soon. (very soon I hope!)
Until then, I cannot really use JXL Brass in projects that are already busy with other instruments.

This seemingly is one of the top-rank blocking issues to some of us with the finite RAM! (well at least to me)


----------



## TintoL

louderup said:


> Horns a12 Sustains with 6 mic positions loaded and all dynamic layers is only showing 185 MB of RAM in the interface, however Sustains + Legato with the same mics, dynamic layers, and nothing purged is showing 4.1 GB.


Thank you very much for your answer. The last memory count with legatos is high. But, i am guessing in kontakt, patches in capsule were about the same?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

All of the people who are complaining about Purge being particulation, what libraries do you even use? If you have to purge that much stuff I would assume you are already freezing tracks anyways

I get that other people might have drastically different workflows, but these instruments are already really light on RAM, but if needing to trim down on RAM is needed, just disable legato and half the round Robins

it's a professional Library, not a lightweight sketching tool


----------



## Eptesicus

emanon said:


> Yeah, hopefully this will get addressed soon. (very soon I hope!)
> Until then, I cannot really use JXL Brass in projects that are already busy with other instruments.
> 
> This seemingly is one of the top-rank blocking issues to some of us with the finite RAM! (well at least to me)



Can you not mic merge to reduce the ram footprint?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

louderup said:


> Horns a12 Sustains with 6 mic positions loaded and all dynamic layers is only showing 185 MB of RAM in the interface, however Sustains + Legato with the same mics, dynamic layers, and nothing purged is showing 4.1 GB.


I'm not having this experience at.all. 

I loaded the entire 12 horns patch, and have been recording my ram usage every step of the way, and havent been able to reproduce this. 

with an empty instance it reaper was using basically nothing. With all articulations it said 1gb but total usage of reaper went to 1.7gb I activated every actual microphone + both reverb only channels and it said 9 something gb and task manager said 10gb total. 

not sure where your nearly 4gb discrepancy is at


----------



## staypuft

ProfoundSilence said:


> I'm not having this experience at.all.
> 
> I loaded the entire 12 horns patch, and have been recording my ram usage every step of the way, and havent been able to reproduce this.
> 
> with an empty instance it reaper was using basically nothing. With all articulations it said 1gb but total usage of reaper went to 1.7gb I activated every actual microphone + both reverb only channels and it said 9 something gb and task manager said 10gb total.
> 
> not sure where your nearly 4gb discrepancy is at


Not having this as well....I´m having different sample hickups and I´m reporting them as I go


----------



## tabulius

Here's a theme we all know of. The instruments are still downloading but I had the Horns a4, Horns a6, Trumpets a6 and Trombones a6 to play with.

Please, don't take this as a perfect mockup, I just took some freedoms and arranged the theme from top of my head. I really like the sound and the highest dynamic layers weren't that piercing than I thought.

One thing that I didn't like is when playing the theme with legatos and I added a few short marcatos here and there - the marcatos were a lot louder than the sustains! But I manually tuned the volume range to my liking and it worked in the end.

Oh and I used the JXL mixes of close, room and added the front rev + B2 reverb.


----------



## Dominik

shawnsingh said:


> Well, I'm done playing around for today.
> 
> I've stuck with natural Tree and AB mics at this time. I don't even feel the need to try any other mic positions, I like this combo. What are other people's preferences so far about mic positions? How do you like the AMXL ones versus the natural ones?
> 
> Tuba + Cimbassi with Bass Trombones transposed an octave higher is a killer combo with the tree/AB natural mics. Growly and solid.


I think in comparison to the AMXL TREE the normal TREE sounds liveless and dull. Much of low end is missing and even in the mid and high register it sounds more definite. I also prefer the AMXL CLOSE mix than the two CLOSE mics. Furthermore I like MID and SUR 2 much. 
But this is only in regard to the single sections. I don´t know yet how the mics translate into my mixes. Could be that the AMXL mixes are a bit too much in the low end. Let´s see.


----------



## ProfoundSilence




----------



## staypuft

ProfoundSilence said:


> All of the people who are complaining about Purge being particulation, what libraries do you even use? If you have to purge that much stuff I would assume you are already freezing tracks anyways
> 
> I get that other people might have drastically different workflows, but these instruments are already really light on RAM, but if needing to trim down on RAM is needed, just disable legato and half the round Robins
> 
> it's a professional Library, not a lightweight sketching tool


I think it´s more like a matter of working fast. I have my entire Kontakt template purged so I can switch cues in seconds. Gotta make good use of those NVMes!

Hendrik said that purge will be down to single sample level, hopefully soon....Sine is so good and streamlined that I can´t complain much.


----------



## Zero&One

tabulius said:


> Here's a theme we all know of.



I love Star Trek!


----------



## Uiroo

James H said:


> I love Star Trek!


You are a bad person...


----------



## Manuel Stumpf

louderup said:


> Horns a12 Sustains with 6 mic positions loaded and all dynamic layers is only showing 185 MB of RAM in the interface, however Sustains + Legato with the same mics, dynamic layers, and nothing purged is showing 4.1 GB.


With the default settings the Horns a12 sustain patch takes rouhgly 33MB per microphone (this is very efficient!). For 6 Mics that is approximately 200MB.
Enabling legato increases size to over 760MB per microphone. So for 6 Mics thats more than 4GB.
Therefore your observation seems to be correct. Legato takes lot of RAM, but that was also true for Kontakt instruments.
The player instance itself has something between 300MB and 400MB.


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

nas said:


> Would be great to hear that with the unprocessed mics and perhaps just slightly smaller sections.



Here you go, unprocessed mics (close and tree)



Pulled down the trombones as well in the mix


----------



## Benjamin Duk

staypuft said:


> I think it´s more like a matter of working fast. I have my entire Kontakt template purged so I can switch cues in seconds. Gotta make good use of those NVMes!
> 
> Hendrik said that purge will be down to single sample level, hopefully soon....Sine is so good and streamlined that I can´t complain much.



Yup, I'm very impressed with Sine.

@staypuft are you going to redo that brass demo you did in JXL Brass? Would be good to hear how it sounds.


----------



## Peter Satera

ProfoundSilence said:


> All of the people who are complaining about Purge being particulation, what libraries do you even use? If you have to purge that much stuff I would assume you are already freezing tracks anyways
> 
> I get that other people might have drastically different workflows, but these instruments are already really light on RAM, but if needing to trim down on RAM is needed, just disable legato and half the round Robins
> 
> it's a professional Library, not a lightweight sketching tool



I disagree. Optimisations are crucial to *all* libraries. Class them as professional or not is not an excuse for unused heavy load - can you imagine if all libraries took this approach, "we're professional, so load it all" .

Many of us use the purge function to free up resources. Yes, loading the whole instrument in if you need it is obviously helpful, however it's not always going to be the case. Such as on FX patches (which are coming to JXL) would load the full thing, whereas you might only use one or two of them in a track/cue. Freezing these, unfreezing if you change your mind can be a pain depending on application.

I think it's also a bit strange your proposed solution is just "disable legato or half the round robins". This effects what we hear, while we play it and on playback and in comparison is still a larger mem' footprint. It's best to maintain the expected functionality that many have within their workflow. If you like loading it all, just load it all and then freeze, having the additional and expected functionality requested does not influence that workflow.

On a separate purge issue. Currently the purge function doesn't always stay purged. So currently, if I purge in Sine for a template, save it. Then re-open my template, SINE automatically loads those patches, without me playing a single note. Taking a template from 1or 2gb ramped right up and longer initial open.

So yes, purge does need looked at to work for many existing pipelines, which is why Hendrik has made a point of it.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

GuitarG said:


> Here you go, unprocessed mics (close and tree)



try using short articulations to create phrases. 

here is a rough crack still using the a12 horns.(even though the original theme was bones first)


----------



## Peter Satera

GuitarG said:


> Here you go, unprocessed mics (close and tree)




It's amazing how much a difference that makes!


----------



## Consona

ProfoundSilence said:


> try using short articulations to create phrases.
> 
> here is a rough crack still using the a12 horns.(even though the original theme was bones first)


Hm, the stereo image quite wanders here.


----------



## AGMediaNL

Benjamin Duk said:


> The great thing about this player is that you can turn off the Dynamic Layers. This is so useful if you don't want to hit those FFF layers.



Has nothing to do with the Sine Player specifically, though. 
This is also possible (if a dev wants it) with the Kontakt Player.
OT already had this (and/or something simular with excluding RR's) in their Kontakt compatible libs.

Useful for sure!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Consona said:


> Hm, the stereo image quite wanders here.


it feels like the staccatissimo pulls a little to the center a little - but I suspect that's due to the microphones having varied dynamic contrast

i.e. if the tree mic is +/- 2 decibels between piano and forte - the close mics might be +/- 6 decibles. 

this could be the reason for the feeling of a shift in stereo image? none of the body of the horns feels like it's moving - so that's my guess


----------



## ProfoundSilence

AGMediaNL said:


> Has nothing to do with the Sine Player specifically, though.
> This is also possible (if a dev wants it) with the Kontakt Player.
> OT already had this (and/or something simular with excluding RR's) in their Kontakt compatible libs.
> 
> Useful for sure!




I was thinking if i canted to trim down on ram, you could potentially disable the 2nd and 4th dynamic layers - get the full dynamic "range" for tracking - and then re-enable them when rendering out... although i dare say it might be some dicey results lol.


----------



## Zero&One

Any chance some kind soul could play these 4 notes in for me? Horns & Bones
I'll not attach midi for 4 notes 
Just something simple so I can see the wood from the trees in my decisions.
Cheers


----------



## Consona

ProfoundSilence said:


> it feels like the staccatissimo pulls a little to the center a little - but I suspect that's due to the microphones having varied dynamic contrast
> 
> i.e. if the tree mic is +/- 2 decibels between piano and forte - the close mics might be +/- 6 decibles.
> 
> this could be the reason for the feeling of a shift in stereo image? none of the body of the horns feels like it's moving - so that's my guess


Yes, you can see when different articulations play by the stereo sound.


----------



## nas

GuitarG said:


> Here you go, unprocessed mics (close and tree)
> 
> 
> 
> Pulled down the trombones as well in the mix





Thank You ! I really prefer this a lot more to the AMJXL Mics. I suspect that once one learns to work with the mic combos and various articulations and MIDI CC's... some great results can be achieved in a variety of styles and ensemble sizes.


----------



## bvaughn0402

James H said:


> Any chance some kind soul could play these 4 notes in for me? Horns & Bones
> I'll not attach midi for 4 notes
> Just something simple so I can see the wood from the trees in my decisions.
> Cheers




I'm not sure I will be good at this, so if you don't like it someone else might do it better. This is in Logic Pro, no reverb, AMXL Tree mic ... French Horns a4 + Trombone a3

Also ... realized on my export that I messed up on my Mod Wheel Expression for first test ... sorry!


----------



## Consona

Nice! Even the processed mics sound good here. I'd eq it, but I like it.


----------



## Zero&One

bvaughn0402 said:


> I'm not sure I will be good at this, so if you don't like it someone else might do it better. This is in Logic Pro, no reverb, AMXL Tree mic ... French Horns a4 + Trombone a3



Thanks! Really appreciate your time and help


----------



## PeterJCroissant

Hi Guys, Is there a manual for this? I can’t find one.

Can some explain what the MIC remote option is for?


----------



## OT_Tobias

PeterJCroissant said:


> Hi Guys, Is there a manual for this? I can’t find one.
> 
> Can some explain what the MIC remote option is for?



You can find a full documentation for all features at https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/
Here's Mic Remote, specifically: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/308-mic-remote


----------



## ProfoundSilence

PeterJCroissant said:


> Hi Guys, Is there a manual for this? I can’t find one.
> 
> Can some explain what the MIC remote option is for?


its been linked, and it's on the OT website for the sine player. 

or if you're not going to leave the interfact, just go to "store" scroll to the bottom and hit support.


----------



## tabulius

PeterJCroissant said:


> Hi Guys, Is there a manual for this? I can’t find one.
> 
> Can some explain what the MIC remote option is for?



There you can adjust the mics for ALL the instruments; horns, tbones, trumpets etc.


----------



## Sovereign

For those of you also using Hans Zimmer Strings (which I think JXL Brass compliments greatly) how much db do you shave off of JXL in the mixer to get a balanced mix?


----------



## PeterJCroissant

ahhh thank you all.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

idk how well it combines with HZS but it certainly feels damn dirty playing ark1 low strings with 12horns. 

I was shameless and used the hyped JXLB mixes. It's a guilty pleasure, since I don't do "epic" or anything of the sort. There is a REALLY aggressive modern take of duel of fates in there haha.


----------



## jononotbono

So is SINE always connected to the internet?

Nearly there with full download...






Just been having a little play about with what I do have downloaded. Yes, if we could get the values of the faders and Pan to snap back to 0db and Centre when holding CMD and clicking like in everything else, it would be great. Flattening the Mics etc is a bit unknown because I don't know if every level is exact again. Just by having some kind of numerical indicator would help (with the reset option as I've just described.

The Horns! Man, I love this library already and I've only just flirted with it. The choice of Mic Positions is so good and being able to use the natural mics makes this a very versatile library. Outstanding!


----------



## OrchestralTools

We are blown away by the responses to Junkie XL Brass, thank you all so much. 
We're loving what you guys have created so far with it and looking forward to hearing more. We've also been working with the library. 
Here's a new video: Orchestral Tools’ Maxime composed this piece using Junkie XL Brass in SINE on his laptop. Not possible, you say? Watch and see...



Thanks for all feature requests too – you’ve given us so many ideas for the next SINE updates.

And remember, if you encounter any issues or need help, please take advantage of our dedicated SINE support: [email protected]
You can also check out https://slack-redir.net/link?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhelpdesk.orchestraltools.com (helpdesk.orchestraltools.com) – we put together the most frequent questions there.

Best,

OT


----------



## apollinaire

OrchestralTools said:


> Here's a new video: Orchestral Tools’ Maxime composed this piece using Junkie XL Brass in SINE on his laptop. Not possible, you say? Watch and see...



It would be helpful to know the specs of the MBP.


----------



## Bernard Duc

Here is as promised, here a Mahler brass choral from the second symphony. Going from pp, to FFF, it's a great way to test the dynamic range of the library. It also showcase the quality of the crossfading. But while very beautiful when played soft, I think that it's in the higher dynamic ranges that this library really shines. The section following (horns and trumpets fanfare) would probably be much more tricky to handle for JXL brass (and most other brass libraries I know).

EDIT: I just realized I didn't pan at all the multiple solo instruments, so sorry if it sounds a little bit narrow!


----------



## William Hoshal

I'm a little late to the demo party but I thought I would put this up. A quick demo featuring the marcatos, staccatos, and staccatissimos; one mic (AMXL Tree). Very easy to work with so far. Love this library. Congratulations Junkie XL and @OrchestralTools !


----------



## borisb2

Bernard Duc said:


> Here is as promised, here a Mahler brass choral from the second symphony. Going from pp, to FFF, it's a great way to test the dynamic range of the library. It also showcase the quality of the crossfading. But while very beautiful when played soft, I think that it's in the higher dynamic ranges that this library really shines. The section following (horns and trumpets fanfare) would probably be much more tricky to handle for JXL brass (and most other brass libraries I know).


dont like the low dynamics to be honest .. to me it has that pipe organ effect .. high dynamics are great


----------



## CT

I think the low dynamics work far better than the loud ones, or at least, than the transition between them. That passage is supposed to sound organ-like, though the individual lines could probably stand to breathe a little more.


----------



## borisb2

miket said:


> I think the low dynamics work far better than the loud ones, or at least, than the transition between them. That passage is supposed to sound organ-like, though the individual lines could probably stand to breathe a little more.


disagree .. I just listened to the original:


maybe just a bit more CC1 would do the trick


----------



## CT

Yep, I've been listening to the original for quite a few years.  

Like I said, a little more individual breath on each part. But the top dynamics in this library just do not work for me at all.


----------



## Bernard Duc

miket said:


> I think the low dynamics work far better than the loud ones, or at least, than the transition between them. That passage is supposed to sound organ-like, though the individual lines could probably stand to breathe a little more.


Yes, it’s supposed to sound like an organ. I actually copied the breathing from a Concertgebouw performance, but there is something about very experienced brass players tuning to each other’s that no library can imitate yet. It create a sense of depth and space that I could never find in a mockup.
EDIT: The reason you don’t like the loud dynamics is probably because I didn’t include the rest of the orchestra and the brass alone sound very bright (as they should). I did however remove a little bit of the trumpets top end.


----------



## Bernard Duc

borisb2 said:


> disagree .. I just listened to the original:
> 
> 
> maybe just a bit more CC1 would do the trick



Actually I used tons of CC1, probably more than the original has dynamic changes. As I said above, the sound difference comes from the players tuning to each other and their instruments vibrating in the same place. And that’s something that no sample library is even close from achieving. That’s why it’s a very interesting challenge to mock-up Mahler, it will never sound nearly as good as a live performance, but it also shows all the strengths, and more importantly weaknesses, of a library.


----------



## borisb2

miket said:


> just do not work for me at all.


actually you're right .. after further listening to the original I would now also say that the top dynamics in JXL brass are maybe too "agressive" or punchy for that kind of music .. dont know how to explain that.

JXL-brass to me feels like a large group of well trained bodybuilders, ready to go. Playing low and quiet they are patient, tapping their feet, but as soon as someone touchs that mod-wheel, starts riding up, they see that and think "oh boy, thats gonna be great" - and off we go ... @William Hoshal scherzo demo shows how great JXLB is with epic punchy lines .. but for symphonic choral stuff - not convinced yet



Bernard Duc said:


> Actually I used tons of CC1, probably more than the original has dynamic changes. As I said above, the sound difference comes from the players tuning to each other and their instruments vibrating in the same place. And that’s something that no sample library is even close from achieving. That’s why it’s a very interesting challenge to mock-up Mahler, it will never sound nearly as good as a live performance, but it also shows all the strengths, and more importantly weaknesses, of a library.


totally agree - and really nothing against your mockup per se .. my comments were more directed towards the library


----------



## germancomponist

Bernard Duc said:


> Actually I used tons of CC1, probably more than the original has dynamic changes. As I said above, the sound difference comes from the players tuning to each other and their instruments vibrating in the same place. And that’s something that no sample library is even close from achieving. That’s why it’s a very interesting challenge to mock-up Mahler, it will never sound nearly as good as a live performance, but it also shows all the strengths, and more importantly weaknesses, of a library.


You can come close to the original when u work with fine tuning. Any instrument (only solo instruments) needs its own midi/audio track and you have to go step by step, means note by note, controlled by using your ears ... .


----------



## Bernard Duc

germancomponist said:


> You can come close to the original when u work with fine tuning. Any instrument needs its own midi/audio track and you have to go step by step, means note by note, controlled by using your ears ... .


It's exactly how I work. But you are welcome to give it a try!


----------



## germancomponist

Bernard Duc said:


> It's exactly how I work. But you are welcome to give it a try!


Very cool!
But don't forget to use only solo instruments for this tuning trick. Very important!


----------



## I like music

germancomponist said:


> Very cool!
> But don't forget to use only solo instruments for this tuning trick. Very important!



You're saying doing small/micro detunings along the way for each individual instrument, in additional to the standard mod/vibrato stuff, just so I'm clear?


----------



## esmooov

I am having a blast with this library. I was playing about and throwing it on some random fragments of tracks I had lying around and I'm loving what's coming out of even quick, silly combos with non-orchestral stuff.


----------



## germancomponist

I like music said:


> You're saying doing small/micro detunings along the way for each individual instrument, in additional to the standard mod/vibrato stuff, just so I'm clear?


... and for each note, to get that organ sound ... .


----------



## jcrosby

jononotbono said:


> Yes, if we could get the values of the faders and Pan to snap back to 0db and Centre when holding CMD and clicking like in everything else, it would be great. Flattening the Mics etc is a bit unknown because I don't know if every level is exact again. Just by having some kind of numerical indicator would help (with the reset option as I've just described.



Definitely... Noticed this after getting a clipping message when merging mics, then adjusting levels... It would be nice if the same key command, (or a preference) let you snap to single dB levels, i.e 0, -1, -2, etc...

That said it looks like if you clips when merging mics it will calculate the clipping amount and re-merge them unclipped... Did this all last night and the merged mics sound fine...

For making custom mixes though it would definitely be useful to allow the faders and panning to snap. For panning there also needs to be a visible value.


----------



## JF

Bernard Duc said:


> Here is as promised, here a Mahler brass choral from the second symphony. Going from pp, to FFF, it's a great way to test the dynamic range of the library. It also showcase the quality of the crossfading. But while very beautiful when played soft, I think that it's in the higher dynamic ranges that this library really shines. The section following (horns and trumpets fanfare) would probably be much more tricky to handle for JXL brass (and most other brass libraries I know).



Interesting.
Here's a comparison with CSB:


----------



## Zero&One

esmooov said:


> I am having a blast with this library.



Please more of this. Got my groove on that did


----------



## I like music

JF said:


> Interesting.
> Here's a comparison with CSB:




I love this. The sound really appeals to me. Are strings CSS? And with CSB, are those just the main mix mics? I have CSB but didn't play with it much, but have started appreciating it again.


----------



## Bernard Duc

germancomponist said:


> ... and for each note, to get that organ sound ... .


I actually misunderstood you. I thought you meant fine-tuning the modwheel, not fine tuning well... the tuning! 

That's something I don't do as it would be way too time-consuming and it wouldn't represent the library in an honest way.


----------



## TintoL

OrchestralTools said:


> We are blown away by the responses to Junkie XL Brass, thank you all so much.
> We're loving what you guys have created so far with it and looking forward to hearing more. We've also been working with the library.
> Here's a new video: Orchestral Tools’ Maxime composed this piece using Junkie XL Brass in SINE on his laptop. Not possible, you say? Watch and see...
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for all feature requests too – you’ve given us so many ideas for the next SINE updates.
> 
> And remember, if you encounter any issues or need help, please take advantage of our dedicated SINE support: [email protected]
> You can also check out https://slack-redir.net/link?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhelpdesk.orchestraltools.com (helpdesk.orchestraltools.com) – we put together the most frequent questions there.
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT





Crap... That sounds great....


----------



## borisb2

JF said:


> Interesting.
> Here's a comparison with CSB:



wow .. great to hear that in comparison to the JXLB-version .. just my personal opinion but CSB sounds so much more natural in that scenario. Dynamics, transitions, everything ..


----------



## germancomponist

Bernard Duc said:


> I actually misunderstood you. I thought you meant fine-tuning the modwheel, not fine tuning well... the tuning!
> 
> That's something I don't do as it would be way too time-consuming and it wouldn't represent the library in an honest way.


Some people spend 3 long days for editing only the hi hats .... .


----------



## I like music

germancomponist said:


> Some people spend 3 long days for editing only the hi hats .... .



I call that "composing" but most people would call that procrastination or "avoiding my life's problems"


----------



## Bernard Duc

germancomponist said:


> Some people spend 3 long days for editing only the hi hats .... .


Maybe, but in this case it’s certainly not their job! I would never finish anything on time if I worked like that (plus I would just hire a drummer).


----------



## tebling

jononotbono said:


> They could well be coal miners instead of composers for all I know.



Dammit, what gave me away?!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jononotbono said:


> lThere are some people that just relentlessly post and post, have the strongest opinions, and have never shared a single piece of music. They could well be coal miners instead of composers for all I know.



bruhhh why do you have to do me like that?? your ass isn't getting a single piece of coal for christmas


----------



## ProfoundSilence

tebling said:


> Dammit, what gave me away?!


coal miner subforum in offtopic is inorder, next to junkie xl fashion and style


----------



## Taj Mikel

Using the standalone player, loaded solo trombone and a6 trombone unprocessed mics, getting insane cpu spikes and audio dropouts when doing fast runs using both patches layered. Is anyone else having a similar experience? Using an i9 9900x


----------



## Taj Mikel

Taj Mikel said:


> Using the standalone player, loaded solo trombone and a6 trombone unprocessed mics, getting insane cpu spikes and audio dropouts when doing fast runs using both patches layered. Is anyone else having a similar experience? Using an i9 9900x


This is what I get if I hit 4 notes simultaneously about 6 or 7 times in a row. I loaded the bass trombones, as well. With all 3 loaded, a single note triggered jumps cpu to around 12%. Playing notes in sequence jumps the meter to 50%+ and causes audio dropouts. Not even doing fast runs.

I have them all set to utilize the same MIDI channel, could that be causing this?

EDIT TO ADD* Disabling all but the close mics resolved that issue. Reduced the number of voices? Not a very effective workaround. Maybe mic merge.


----------



## jononotbono

ProfoundSilence said:


> bruhhh why do you have to do me like that?? your ass isn't getting a single piece of coal for christmas



Even 1 lump of coal would be greatly appreciated! Look at where I’ve moved to! WTF is this White shit! 😂


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jononotbono said:


> Even 1 lump of coal would be greatly appreciated! Look at where I’ve moved to! WTF is this White shit! 😂


it's a napkin. the world is your napkin... draw your chainsaw murder in crayons


----------



## jononotbono

ProfoundSilence said:


> it's a napkin. the world is your napkin... draw your chainsaw murder in crayons



Cant afford any Crayons. I just bought JXLB 😂


----------



## Taj Mikel

Loden Reinheim said:


> I recently saw the CSO play Holst's The Planets. During Mars it very clearly sounded like the bass trombone was coming from the left side even though I could clearly see Charles Vernon on the right side of the orchestra. I was sitting decently far back in the middle of the hall. I suspect what you're hearing is the bass trombones reflecting off of the left side of the hall as I heard Charles in the Chicago Symphony Center.


Thank you! That makes sense and it’s good to hear about an example of a live orchestra, which is something I’ve enjoyed several times, but never with enough wherewithal to consider something like the room.
Based on the pictures of the recording sessions, it looks like the players were seated in a single file line. So I think this may count for different intonation across the stereo field depending on pitch, but it may also and probably is also due to the reflections in the room. 
I guess my main concern, which I will become familiar with as soon as the library finishes downloading, is that it will consume all of the space in the mix. 
It almost reminds me of Tina Guo cello, which feels like it almost requires that it only be used when the cello is meant to take the entire stage. Which is fine, that’s what it was meant for, but it’s a solo cello :D JXL may sound very good in a dense mix of other things happening, but I am worried that it will occupy so much space that it may be best suited for brass focused pieces.
I may also be overthinking the whole thing


----------



## ProfoundSilence

you just need help understanding stereo image. 

when you hear a French horn most of the sound you hear isn't even direct, it's the reflection from the wall behind it. 

brass in a live room is going to be fairly even in left and right channels depending on how wide the mic placement is - but the real "stereo" effect occurs because of how the sound has been changed when it reaches the other microphone AND the difference in time between them. 

you can take a mono signal, pan it 15% to the right, and delay the left channel by 4 ms and itll sound like its 50% of the way to the right if you have headphones on. (see: HAAS effect)

the only mics you need to pan are close microphones, and the other ones slightly if you want to exaggerate the effect


----------



## AlainTH

JF said:


> Interesting.
> Here's a comparison with CSB:



very convincing, seems natural and melodic.


----------



## germancomponist

Consona said:


> What @Taj Mikel is talking about, IMO, is that the same instrument has different stereo field across its range or across articulations. I've noticed that too, the sound travels in the stereo field as the notes are played. Which is not natural.


Oh yes, it is very natural and depends always only of the room. Some frequencies are reflected louder, some more silent, some more only from the left or the right and so on. The reason why all the great places in the world sound different.


----------



## stargazer

Regarding the return policy:
Can you get a refund (within 14 days), if you’ve already downloaded the library?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

stargazer said:


> Regarding the return policy:
> Can you get a refund (within 14 days), if you’ve already downloaded the library?




no, but I'm NOT orchestral tools


----------



## Adam Takacs

stargazer said:


> Regarding the return policy:
> Can you get a refund (within 14 days), if you’ve already downloaded the library?








Returns, Refunds and Resales - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


What about your Returns and Refunds policy? In general all sales are final as soon as the download of the collection(s) has commenced. In the case of Kontakt Pl




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com


----------



## Consona

germancomponist said:


> Oh yes, it is very natural and depends always only of the room. Some frequencies are reflected louder, some more silent, some more only from the left or the right and so on. The reason why all the great places in the world sound different.


Listen to some Williams or Herrmann recordings, the sound does not float across the stereo field.


----------



## shawnsingh

So I took an old incomplete piece I made, and experimented by replacing everything with JXL. I didn't spend enough time making the mix match very well, so please keep that in mind when evaluating the differences.

Old Mix: (a) EWQL Hollywood Brass Gold with EWQL Spaces SF Hall reverb preset, predelay set to 0, (b) Metropolis Ark 1 tree mic position only, (c) and a tiny bit of VSL but probably made no difference in the sound.

JXL Mix: the natural tree mic only. I added Valhalla Room algorithmic reverb simply to help match it with the original version - at some point later, I should try adding the AB or one of the surround mics instead. Anyway, I also added a slight pan and EQ to trumpets. Also I think I made the horns just a bit too strong and bright in the JXL mix, whoops sorry but it's too much effort to fix that just for a fun demo. Used solo and a4 horn. solo/a3/a6 trumpets. a3 trombones, a3 bass trombones, a3 cimbassi, and tuba.

So after this exercise, here are my thoughts about JXL Brass:

JXL Brass is superb! The only one severe weak point of my JXL version is the solo trumpet double-tonguing stacatissimo. One major thing I need to try is to lower note velocities and compensate with basic volume, to see if that tone of trumpets matches better in that part. But I think I can also mix it better with more time - the old EWQL Hollywood sound had a lovely rich mess of early reflections that helped diffuse the sharpness of the trumpet, while keeping the silvery power when needed. The JXL tree position is a much more direct sound. So for a3 and a6 trumpets it did not matter as much, because the multiple instruments themselves are helping to diffuse some of the sharpness. But for the solo trumpet, that sharpness doesn't feel like it matches my mix.
Original version a few years ago took me three different brass libraries and a lot of trial and error tweaking in MIDI performances. JXL Brass was able to get better MIDI performances in almost all places. JXL has definitely set a very high bar in terms of no-phase xfading and consistency across articulations and across instruments.
For JXL I really did have to reprogram some of my MIDI CC and note velocities to be quieter. Which is a good thing - that really opened the door for me to get that tiny bit of extra power in a few places I felt I couldn't before.
Consistency and flexibility of JXL articulations allowed me to fix some long standing annoying articulation quirks, where I couldn't get the right MIDI performance before, so I had relied on layering and approximating articulations. A lot of those are basically gone.
PRO TIP: I discovered it's wonderfully flexible to use MIDI CC xfading to tweak the attacks - and releases - of marcato short/longs. This makes it possible to add a lot of character and variation to the performances. For example: the trumpet "doot-dahhhhh" phrases, I faded-in the CC on marcato shorts and longs to create a more rounded emphasis or to add a proper feeling of breathing between notes, while still getting that silvery bite of the marcato. However, I do think EWQL Hollywood Brass deserves a lot of credit too, for having their own unique combi patches that made it super flexible to sculpt attacks like "sus-accent" and "sus-marcato". I like that way of thinking with note velocities + MIDI CC to sculpt an endless variety of attacks, and MIDI CC to sculpt the sustain part for expressiveness and character. I think it could eventually be possible to do something like this in the Sine Player with poly maps - I have some concrete feature requests about this which I will send! But still, so far I did not feel limited at all by what JXL could to in terms of sculpting attacks and sustains.


----------



## Consona

Shaping shorts with CC is exactly what I want, great to hear the library has this feature. Still waiting what CineBrass Sonore is about before buying anything from JXLB though.


How does sound between a3 and a6 patches differ? Is the difference big or rather marginal? How about the programming?


----------



## Leo

stargazer said:


> Regarding the return policy:
> Can you get a refund (within 14 days), if you’ve already downloaded the library?


I hate to say it, but I also consider returning Junke xl.

Love Sine and player possibility - is truly innovation in market, 
but I'm not sure about the sound of this brass.

The more I listen demos, the more I don't like it, 
(just) for me this brass have sound like nearly excellent big dryer organ, 
sounded too perfect, missing human touch and dirty brassy character.
I listen again CineBrass Pro and sounded more interesting to me...
Fast legato sounded (again just for me) in cinebrass much more better with lot of character. 
Also I feel a problem with panning, junke brass occupying too much space.

I didn't download library, just pre-ordered, but I don't feel excited, 
I'm afraid I will be disappointed.

Also I don't make epic stuff, where it can be maybe applied.

From brass I have only Caspian, and brass from all Symphobia's, Jaeger, ARK 2,3,4 etc..


----------



## Eptesicus

Leo said:


> Fast legato sounded (again just for me) in cinebrass much more better with lot of character.
> Also I feel a problem with panning, junke brass occupying too much space.



JXL's legato is way better than cinebrass in my opinion.

I dont think it is a complete revolution. It still has a few shortcomings. I do think it is as good as the best competition though (CSB, Cinebrass etc) and does some things much better, maybe some worse.

Tone wise it is gorgeous, and with so many mic options, you get a lot of variety in terms of sound shaping.


----------



## Zero&One

shawnsingh said:


> So I took an old incomplete piece I made, and experimented by replacing everything with JXL.



Now that's a great piece. Nice to hear it in context with music and not a commercial for a brass library.
Be great to hear it finished, why was it abandoned?


----------



## stargazer

tadam said:


> Returns, Refunds and Resales - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk
> 
> 
> What about your Returns and Refunds policy? In general all sales are final as soon as the download of the collection(s) has commenced. In the case of Kontakt Pl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com


Thank you, tadam!


----------



## Leo

Please can someone make demo only from solo trumpet, horn, trombone and tuba?


----------



## stargazer

shawnsingh said:


> So I took an old incomplete piece I made, and experimented by replacing everything with JXL. I didn't spend enough time making the mix match very well, so please keep that in mind when evaluating the differences.
> 
> Old Mix: (a) EWQL Hollywood Brass Gold with EWQL Spaces SF Hall reverb preset, predelay set to 0, (b) Metropolis Ark 1 tree mic position only, (c) and a tiny bit of VSL but probably made no difference in the sound.
> 
> JXL Mix: the natural tree mic only. I added Valhalla Room algorithmic reverb simply to help match it with the original version - at some point later, I should try adding the AB or one of the surround mics instead. Anyway, I also added a slight pan and EQ to trumpets. Also I think I made the horns just a bit too strong and bright in the JXL mix, whoops sorry but it's too much effort to fix that just for a fun demo. Used solo and a4 horn. solo/a3/a6 trumpets. a3 trombones, a3 bass trombones, a3 cimbassi, and tuba.
> 
> So after this exercise, here are my thoughts about JXL Brass:
> 
> JXL Brass is superb! The only one severe weak point of my JXL version is the solo trumpet double-tonguing stacatissimo. One major thing I need to try is to lower note velocities and compensate with basic volume, to see if that tone of trumpets matches better in that part. But I think I can also mix it better with more time - the old EWQL Hollywood sound had a lovely rich mess of early reflections that helped diffuse the sharpness of the trumpet, while keeping the silvery power when needed. The JXL tree position is a much more direct sound. So for a3 and a6 trumpets it did not matter as much, because the multiple instruments themselves are helping to diffuse some of the sharpness. But for the solo trumpet, that sharpness doesn't feel like it matches my mix.
> Original version a few years ago took me three different brass libraries and a lot of trial and error tweaking in MIDI performances. JXL Brass was able to get better MIDI performances in almost all places. JXL has definitely set a very high bar in terms of no-phase xfading and consistency across articulations and across instruments.
> For JXL I really did have to reprogram some of my MIDI CC and note velocities to be quieter. Which is a good thing - that really opened the door for me to get that tiny bit of extra power in a few places I felt I couldn't before.
> Consistency and flexibility of JXL articulations allowed me to fix some long standing annoying articulation quirks, where I couldn't get the right MIDI performance before, so I had relied on layering and approximating articulations. A lot of those are basically gone.
> PRO TIP: I discovered it's wonderfully flexible to use MIDI CC xfading to tweak the attacks - and releases - of marcato short/longs. This makes it possible to add a lot of character and variation to the performances. For example: the trumpet "doot-dahhhhh" phrases, I faded-in the CC on marcato shorts and longs to create a more rounded emphasis or to add a proper feeling of breathing between notes, while still getting that silvery bite of the marcato. However, I do think EWQL Hollywood Brass deserves a lot of credit too, for having their own unique combi patches that made it super flexible to sculpt attacks like "sus-accent" and "sus-marcato". I like that way of thinking with note velocities + MIDI CC to sculpt an endless variety of attacks, and MIDI CC to sculpt the sustain part for expressiveness and character. I think it could eventually be possible to do something like this in the Sine Player with poly maps - I have some concrete feature requests about this which I will send! But still, so far I did not feel limited at all by what JXL could to in terms of sculpting attacks and sustains.


Thanks for a very helpful post!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Leo said:


> Please can someone make demo only from solo trumpet, horn, trombone and tuba?


that's actually in the 1st walkthrough


----------



## Leo

ProfoundSilence said:


> that's actually in the 1st walkthrough


yes, thanks, I know, but only trumpet make melody line (with maybe legato?), 
but others plays only staccatissimo.


----------



## germancomponist

Leo said:


> ... Also I don't make epic stuff, where it can be maybe applied.
> 
> From brass I have only Caspian, and brass from all Symphobia's, Jaeger, ARK 2,3,4 etc..



Huh?


----------



## Consona

Leo said:


> I hate to say it, but I also consider returning Junke xl.
> 
> Love Sine and player possibility - is truly innovation in market,
> but I'm not sure about the sound of this brass.
> 
> The more I listen demos, the more I don't like it,
> (just) for me this brass have sound like nearly excellent big dryer organ,
> sounded too perfect, missing human touch and dirty brassy character.
> I listen again CineBrass Pro and sounded more interesting to me...
> Fast legato sounded (again just for me) in cinebrass much more better with lot of character.
> Also I feel a problem with panning, junke brass occupying too much space.
> 
> I didn't download library, just pre-ordered, but I don't feel excited,
> I'm afraid I will be disappointed.
> 
> Also I don't make epic stuff, where it can be maybe applied.
> 
> From brass I have only Caspian, and brass from all Symphobia's, Jaeger, ARK 2,3,4 etc..


Based on your description, you would be really happy with CineBrass. JXLB sound very precise and clinical, while CineBrass sound way more lively. So you can program way more tighter lines with JXLB but they wont sound that vivid. There are always pros and cons to everything.

I am really curious about the CBS (lol, those acronyms will kill us) (CineBrass Sonore) fast legato demos. To me CineBrass is still the best sounding brass, even though JXLB has a great sound, it is just different. I am still waiting for some fast JXLB passages demo as well.


----------



## meradium

Leo said:


> Please can someone make demo only from solo trumpet, horn, trombone and tuba?



Yes, please!


----------



## meradium

May I add, particular one where the instruments are playing staccato notes?  This is pretty much the one single area where all my SM efforts so far are lacking in getting the sound "right". Particularly the horns are just so difficult to treat and place. BB looked like a great promise to "fix" this. But I guess those folks who have that library know that consistency is seriously lacking - unfortunately. Not really sure I need all the other bee hives though. BTW: Was somewhere mentioned when they start selling of individual instruments in their new player/web shop? Right this does not yet seem to be possible...


----------



## Loïc D

meradium said:


> BTW: Was somewhere mentioned when they start selling of individual instruments in their new player/web shop? Right this does not yet seem to be possible...


OT (Tobias ?) mentioned next year in a past post.

I think I should try to find some time to create some solo lines for every instrument and post it here.
In an exposed / solo / classical way. Let me think about it.


----------



## Adam Takacs

LowweeK said:


> OT (Tobias ?) mentioned next year in a past post.
> 
> I think I should try to find some time to create some solo lines for every instrument and post it here.
> In an exposed / solo / classical way. Let me think about it.


"You’ll be able to buy individual instruments from Junkie XL Brass soon – probably sometime in January 2020"


----------



## Eptesicus

NoamL said:


> I'm not even a brass player, and I can tell the lack of repetition/multitongue samples is really hurting here. You need samples with true multitongue if you want to achieve that kind of writing. Of course, that's not the only thing brass players do and JXLB sounds good at many other tasks.



I disagree. I hate pre recorded multi tongues. They never sound that good to me, being pre baked.

The staccatisimo in JXL is very good and pulls them off very well when done right.

however, i will admit i havent played with CSB's which does sound more usable than other library's offerings.


----------



## Loïc D

Eptesicus said:


> I disagree. I hate pre recorded multi tongues. They never sound that good to me.
> 
> The staccatisimo in JXL is very good and pulls them off very well when done right.


Bit of both actually : prerecorded multitongue sound obviously more realistic but you'd need them in plenty and with cohesive sound & timing to use them. Otherwise, it's hit and (often) miss.

Good staccatissimo offers a flexible workaround in multitongue at the expense of less realistic (ok, weird) rendering. JXL manages to avoid that pitfall quite brilliantly. It's black magic to me, but hey, it sounds right. 

From my previously owned libraries (EWQLSO, and sadly SStB Pro), it's a giant leap forward.
And since new arts will be added later by OT, the best is yet to come.

I think JXL is not the "library to rule them all" but it has a big crown already.


----------



## Olfirf

Leo said:


> I hate to say it, but I also consider returning Junke xl.
> 
> Love Sine and player possibility - is truly innovation in market,
> but I'm not sure about the sound of this brass.
> 
> The more I listen demos, the more I don't like it,
> (just) for me this brass have sound like nearly excellent big dryer organ,
> sounded too perfect, missing human touch and dirty brassy character.
> I listen again CineBrass Pro and sounded more interesting to me...
> Fast legato sounded (again just for me) in cinebrass much more better with lot of character.
> Also I feel a problem with panning, junke brass occupying too much space.
> 
> I didn't download library, just pre-ordered, but I don't feel excited,
> I'm afraid I will be disappointed.
> 
> Also I don't make epic stuff, where it can be maybe applied.
> 
> From brass I have only Caspian, and brass from all Symphobia's, Jaeger, ARK 2,3,4 etc..


As I wrote earlier, judging by the demos, I much prefer Berlin Brass. The few parts I like about JXL (judging from the walkthrough) are more consistency between the instruments and more dynamic layers (apart from the tone of the upper layers I find a bit to much and to buzzy), but unfortunately with only one solo instrument and lots of over-the-top ensemble sizes that you will rarely ever need for traditional writing.
I really like to have 4 separate Horns! All orchestration can be done with those and it is possible to jump from 4 part to 2 part to full section playing one line within a phrase effortlessly. That truly is a professional tool. It would have been great to see that library upgraded to remove its few flaws! Instead we got JXL and I am not so happy about that TBH.
For some writing styles these things might not matter much - and unfortunately it seems for most of todays writing styles. OT has always produced libraries that were catered towards true orchestration. Even the Arks were partly conceptualized as add-ons to the Berlin series, only with a sales pitch that made them look like trailerish libraries. With this release, it seems OT have abandoned that approach for the first time in favor of establishing a new brand with a different mindset. I hope, that approach will not be equally successful, as I much preferred the older one.


----------



## Eptesicus

LowweeK said:


> Bit of both actually : prerecorded multitongue sound obviously more realistic but you'd need them in plenty and with cohesive sound & timing to use them. Otherwise, it's hit and (often) miss.



yeh , sorry i should have articulated that a bit better. It is the implementation of them that needs to be really good and with a lot of libraries i have found them awkward to fit in/get them to sit right (either timing/volume or dynamically).

I would prefer, i think, to have really quick/agile and consistent shorts to do them.


----------



## dylanlabelle

Check you asio settings
[/QUOTE]
Thank you! Worked.


----------



## AGMediaNL

Leo said:


> I hate to say it, but I also consider returning Junke xl.
> 
> Love Sine and player possibility - is truly innovation in market,
> but I'm not sure about the sound of this brass.
> 
> The more I listen demos, the more I don't like it,
> (just) for me this brass have sound like nearly excellent big dryer organ,
> sounded too perfect, missing human touch and dirty brassy character.
> I listen again CineBrass Pro and sounded more interesting to me...
> Fast legato sounded (again just for me) in cinebrass much more better with lot of character.
> Also I feel a problem with panning, junke brass occupying too much space.
> 
> I didn't download library, just pre-ordered, but I don't feel excited,
> I'm afraid I will be disappointed.
> 
> Also I don't make epic stuff, where it can be maybe applied.
> 
> From brass I have only Caspian, and brass from all Symphobia's, Jaeger, ARK 2,3,4 etc..



It's ofcourse about personal taste, so I hope I don't offend anyone here, but I agree.
Have been listening to all walkthroughs and demo tracks countless of times with my wallet next to me, but I haven't heard anything that got me excited (sound wise).

Orchestral Tools has produced very nice sounding libraries and Tom his work/music is amazing, but I kind of already knew (after listening to the first teasers) those 2 things were the only reason why I kept listening to demo tracks / walkthroughs and literally forced myself to find any reason/ tiny trigger to buy this library (which is almost as bad as hype-buying and totally regretting it after a couple of day/weeks).
Now I'm losing more and more interest as more and more demo tracks are shared.


The ideas/concept/collaboration might be awesome in theory / expressed in words. The playability might be better than lots of other libraries. Ones workflow might improve with a factor of 100. The Sine Player might be promissing.
But in the end only one thing actually matters more than playability, a faster workflow, big names being involved or even realism...
The actual sound.

If you don't like the sound or (best case scenario) have to tweak hours and hours per cue to make it somewhat sound to your liking, it's better to look for something that provides a better headstart.

Happy for OT and Tom to see lots of people do seem to like it very much, though!


----------



## fish_hoof

Wrote this track and added in JXL Brass. Originally I was using Forzo. Brass comes in about 40 second mark. It wasn't written specifically to highlight JXL brass, I just wanted to hear how it would work with my other libraries and wanted to try it in a piece I was already wrapping up. 



A few things - Pros and Cons 

Pros: 

-Sounds amazing
-Consistent in its key switching
-very playable and fun
-can go big or small - love the versatility 

Cons:

-it took me over an hour to replace my Forzo brass parts (which weren't many) because SINE would crash cubase 
-the key switching was inconsistent. It would work on the first pass, then when I moved the play head back, it wouldn't switch back to the first articulation. I had to keep re-loading SINE, then freeze the track. Maybe I missed something in the tutorials... I just assume this simple feature should work out of the box. 

On the fence: 
-there is a lot of noise. When you start adding up all the brass, its a LOT of noise. I do like room tone noise... one of things I like most about HZ Piano.... I'll have to feel that one out. 

So far, works really great with HZ Strings (new update with stacatissmo is sensational, used in this piece) and other libraries.


----------



## Eptesicus

AGMediaNL said:


> It's ofcourse about personal taste, so I hope I don't offend anyone here, but I agree.
> Have been listening to all walkthroughs and demo tracks countless of times with my wallet next to me, but I haven't heard anything that got me excited (sound wise).
> 
> Orchestral Tools has produced very nice sounding libraries and Tom his work/music is amazing, but I kind of already knew (after listening to the first teasers) those 2 things were the only reason why I kept listening to demo tracks / walkthroughs and literally forced myself to find any reason/ tiny trigger to buy this library (which is almost as bad as hype-buying and totally regretting it after a couple of day/weeks).
> Now I'm losing more and more interest as more and more demo tracks are shared.
> 
> 
> The ideas/concept/collaboration might be awesome in theory / expressed in words. The playability might be better than lots of other libraries. Ones workflow might improve with a factor of 100. The Sine Player might be promissing.
> But in the end only one thing actually matters more than playability, a faster workflow, big names being involved or even realism...
> The actual sound.
> 
> If you don't like the sound or (best case scenario) have to tweak hours and hours per cue to make it somewhat sound to your liking, it's better to look for something that provides a better headstart.
> 
> Happy for OT and Tom to see lots of people do seem to like it very much, though!



fair enough.

i think the sound/tone is one of the best out there!


----------



## shawnsingh

Consona said:


> Shaping shorts with CC is exactly what I want, great to hear the library has this feature. Still waiting what CineBrass Sonore is about before buying anything from JXLB though.
> 
> 
> How does sound between a3 and a6 patches differ? Is the difference big or rather marginal? How about the programming?



I've only tried the natural tree and AB mics so far, but a6 and a12 patches sound tighter and more natural than I expected, and doesn't need to sound over-the-top at all. The divisi from a6 to a3 in trumpets, it's very hidden in my example, but I thought it worked quite well. If anything the difference is slightly understated, and may be more obvious when listening carefully with a good stereo image. Programming solo vs a3 vs a6 really was just a copy paste endeavor, Only tweaking for taste after that. Tweaking was definitely not required to compensate for sampling inconsistency, it was already consistent. Hope that answered your questions?



Zero&One said:


> Now that's a great piece. Nice to hear it in context with music and not a commercial for a brass library.
> Be great to hear it finished, why was it abandoned?



Thanks! Abandoned because at that time, colleague wanted something else, more hybrid epic genre instead. So then I lost momentum on it. until now I had been unmotivated to reopen this old bloated template, and life just kept going...


----------



## Maxime Luft

OrchestralTools said:


> We are blown away by the responses to Junkie XL Brass, thank you all so much.
> We're loving what you guys have created so far with it and looking forward to hearing more. We've also been working with the library.
> Here's a new video: Orchestral Tools’ Maxime composed this piece using Junkie XL Brass in SINE on his laptop. Not possible, you say? Watch and see...
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for all feature requests too – you’ve given us so many ideas for the next SINE updates.
> 
> And remember, if you encounter any issues or need help, please take advantage of our dedicated SINE support: [email protected]
> You can also check out https://slack-redir.net/link?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhelpdesk.orchestraltools.com (helpdesk.orchestraltools.com) – we put together the most frequent questions there.
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT








TintoL said:


> Crap... That sounds great....



As some people asked for the MacBook's specs 

MacBook Pro 15inch (2016) i7 Intel Core 2,9GHz, 16GB RAM - macOS Mojave (10.14.6)


Edit: Everything has been triggered live via MIDI, no bounced files except of a few timpani rolls to get the right timing easily.


----------



## Andrew0568

Penciled this in real quickly. The tones from the library are great out-of-the-box

John Powell's "This is Berk"


----------



## Eptesicus

Andrew0568 said:


> Penciled this in real quickly. The tones from the library are great out-of-the-box
> 
> John Powell's "This is Berk"




Man i love the HTTYD soundtracks :D


----------



## Hendrik-Schwarzer

Hi everyone,

We’ve been reading all your feedback and we’re working on releasing a SINE 1.0.1 update in the next few days.

It’s going to solve the c-2 keyswitch issue and you’ll be able to cancel when downloading.
Also it improves some things on DFD procedure and we’ve built an improved installer for mac OS.

In response to some of your questions, we’ve made the following videos which explain SINE file structure, moving instruments to another computer, and removing/deleting mic positions/instruments/collections.

_Move instruments to another computer + SINE file structure 
_


And

_Removing/deleting mic positions, instruments, and collections _



We’re also continually updating our FAQs Helpdesk page here: helpdesk.orchestraltools.com


Glad you guys are enjoying Junkie XL Brass, and thanks again for all your feedback.
We know SINE is a 1.0 and we will keep improving it over the upcoming time.


All the best,

Hendrik


----------



## Consona

shawnsingh said:


> I've only tried the natural tree and AB mics so far, but a6 and a12 patches sound tighter and more natural than I expected, and doesn't need to sound over-the-top at all. The divisi from a6 to a3 in trumpets, it's very hidden in my example, but I thought it worked quite well. If anything the difference is slightly understated, and may be more obvious when listening carefully with a good stereo image. Programming solo vs a3 vs a6 really was just a copy paste endeavor, Only tweaking for taste after that. Tweaking was definitely not required to compensate for sampling inconsistency, it was already consistent. Hope that answered your questions?


Thx for the info. Was just wondering how big is the sound difference between a3 and a6 sections.


----------



## Eptesicus

Andrew0568 said:


> Penciled this in real quickly. The tones from the library are great out-of-the-box
> 
> John Powell's "This is Berk"




how about a bit more of HTTYD :D

a6 horns AMXL tree and a bit of AMXL room


----------



## brenneisen

Virtuoso said:


> affecting F#2 & G2



not chromatically sampled then


----------



## Consona

Andrew0568 said:


> Penciled this in real quickly. The tones from the library are great out-of-the-box
> 
> John Powell's "This is Berk"



This needs some good CC work to sound convincing.


----------



## shawnsingh

Consona said:


> Thx for the info. Was just wondering how big is the sound difference between a3 and a6 sections.



This might be a rare weekend I might have time to create a video to demo this.



Eptesicus said:


> how about a bit more of HTTYD :D



I'd recommend people hear the original reference (link here) first. Out of context, it sounded wacky, but after refreshing myself on the reference it made a lot more sense.


----------



## Eptesicus

Consona said:


> This needs some good CC work to sound convincing.



Eh?

Sounds pretty good to me. Maybe not 100% perfect but that sounds really close if you ask me.


----------



## Consona

Eptesicus said:


> Eh?
> 
> Sounds pretty good to me. Maybe not 100% perfect but that sounds really close if you ask me.


Feels static and the attacks of those notes would be softer. Just CC it, nothing dramatic.


----------



## NoamL

What it needs is another bottom dynamic layer. Apart from @staypuft 's I'm not taking a lot of these user demos too seriously, but if that truly is the dynamic at CC1=0, then this isn't the right library for that passage. It's not miles away from the refernce but it's just a bit too firm and mezzoforte. I have that complaint with CSB as well sometimes, it doesn't go all the way down to that whisper-gentle level that brass can definitely do. The dynamic range of both JXLB and CBS is still EXCELLENT compared to a lot of the competition. IMO it's more important to really nail the top dynamics than the bottom ones. Because we'll be using the top dynamics all the time as extensions of bread and butter playing. For instance at the end of a big crescendo - if those dynamics aren't there, you're in big trouble. Whereas for warm soft chorale brass it's easier to just pull out a specialist library such as Ark 2, or Albion V, or perhaps SSB can do this passage better, etc.


----------



## shawnsingh

I discovered another sound sculpting workflow tip. Sustain articulations alone don't have as much attack-sculpting capability. But what I found is that you can add another instance of the same instrument on the same MIDI channel, and trigger staccato or marcato short at the same time. They layer quite well, and don't feel "phasey" or "separated". To make it more playable, I set the marcato short velocity to be controlled by note velocity instead of CC. That way, you can sculpt the sustain using CC and you can control the strength of the marcato attack by note velocity. This allows you to create "accent + crescendo" types of performances on sustains. This is very similar to EWQL Hollywood Brass sus-marcato combi patches. There are some playability limitations which I think could be addressed if we were able to stack articulations in the polymap instead. A workaround in the meantime would be to just control them on separate MIDI channels for complete control.


----------



## Lassi Tani

staypuft said:


> Getting more and more intimate with JXLB...fake mutes work surprisngly well. The shorts are my favorite and I second what Tom has said:: it is possible to program quick reps that are indistinguishable from the real thing. This sort of consistency is everything I wanted from BBCSO.



Definitely my favorite demos so far. Great writing, effective and clear. Hope to hear more JXL Brass demos from you.


----------



## Loden Reinheim

staypuft said:


> Getting more and more intimate with JXLB...fake mutes work surprisngly well. The shorts are my favorite and I second what Tom has said:: it is possible to program quick reps that are indistinguishable from the real thing. This sort of consistency is everything I wanted from BBCSO.


Awesome demos. Great sound. Sounds thick. Solid. Tight. Keep us all posted on your continued progress with any new progress demos or mockups. Show us what you got man. Wanna see how freakin' huge, solid, thick and tight you can get it to sound. Thanks for the motivation.


----------



## Zero&One

shawnsingh said:


> Thanks! Abandoned because at that time, colleague wanted something else, more hybrid epic genre instead. So then I lost momentum on it. until now I had been unmotivated to reopen this old bloated template, and life just kept going...



Yeah it's hard going back sometimes, more of a pain than pleasure.

By far the best demo I've heard with JXL on here. Thanks


----------



## 5Lives

shawnsingh said:


> I discovered another sound sculpting workflow tip. Sustain articulations alone don't have as much attack-sculpting capability. But what I found is that you can add another instance of the same instrument on the same MIDI channel, and trigger staccato or marcato short at the same time. They layer quite well, and don't feel "phasey" or "separated". To make it more playable, I set the marcato short velocity to be controlled by note velocity instead of CC. That way, you can sculpt the sustain using CC and you can control the strength of the marcato attack by note velocity. This allows you to create "accent + crescendo" types of performances on sustains. This is very similar to EWQL Hollywood Brass sus-marcato combi patches. There are some playability limitations which I think could be addressed if we were able to stack articulations in the polymap instead. A workaround in the meantime would be to just control them on separate MIDI channels for complete control.



Alex Pfeffer’s live stream is a good resource for his approach to this very technique with JXL.


----------



## shawnsingh

5Lives said:


> Alex Pfeffer’s live stream is a good resource for his approach to this very technique with JXL.



Brilliant, thanks for the pointer. Here is a link for anyone interested. Added to my todo list.


----------



## Andrew0568

Consona said:


> This needs some good CC work to sound convincing.



heh, any limitations of that example are purely my own, not the library. All done on a MBP trackpad while watching Scooby Doo with my daughter this morning. It can certainly go quieter--the CC1 on these is around 60-70. I'll try to actually mess around with it when I get to my keyboard


----------



## Loïc D

Andrew0568 said:


> heh, any limitations of that example are purely my own, not the library. All done on a MBP trackpad while watching Scooby Doo with my daughter this morning. It can certainly go quieter--the CC1 on these is around 60-70. I'll try to actually mess around with it when I get to my keyboard



To my experience, 60-70 is already very loud. More classic sound lies around 30-50. 
I think you were carried away by Scooby Doo. Don't worry, we all are...


----------



## NoamL

Andrew0568 said:


> heh, any limitations of that example are purely my own, not the library. All done on a MBP trackpad while watching Scooby Doo with my daughter this morning. It can certainly go quieter--the CC1 on these is around 60-70. I'll try to actually mess around with it when I get to my keyboard



Cool. Glad to know I was wrong! You will be able to make these sound much softer


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I've always thought Orchestral Tools libraries have some of the best sounding libraries available, but I could never justify buying any of the ones I wanted because of the prices. That's why I'm looking for ward to the new store and being able to purchase individual instruments from their libraries.
How much do you reckon individual instruments will cost?
Hoping to get the JXL Trombones as they're the very sound I've been after for so long.


----------



## sIR dORT

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I've always thought Orchestral Tools libraries have some of the best sounding libraries available, but I could never justify buying any of the ones I wanted because of the prices. That's why I'm looking for ward to the new store and being able to purchase individual instruments from their libraries.
> How much do you reckon individual instruments will cost?
> Hoping to get the JXL Trombones as they're the very sound I've been after for so long.


+1. In my case HWB bones don't do the trick.


----------



## Eptesicus

sIR dORT said:


> +1. In my case HWB bones don't do the trick.



Yeh HWB bones are not that great.


----------



## Noeticus

Dem bones, dem bones! What the frig is HWB?


----------



## Dr.Quest

Noeticus said:


> Dem bones, dem bones! What the frig is HWB?


Hollywood Brass I believe.


----------



## KEM

Idk what it is but this is literally unusable for me, it just pops, cracks, and drops out the whole time


----------



## richard kurek

am i missing something or is it an issue , keyswitch not working , . my daw shows the keyboard is fine , i can control with expression maps , but cant switch on the fly ,


----------



## holywilly

Anyone here know how to program Sfz crescendo?


----------



## KEM

I’m having the same issue with SINE as I’m having with Spitfire’s player, it just pops and cracks and drops out all the time, never had this issue with Kontakt, and I’m upset cause I genuinely like what the SINE player does but I just can’t use it cause it won’t work


----------



## ProfoundSilence

what kind of hard drive are you using?


----------



## shawnsingh

And check which asio drivers you're using if you are using standalone version?


----------



## fish_hoof

richard kurek said:


> am i missing something or is it an issue , keyswitch not working , . my daw shows the keyboard is fine , i can control with expression maps , but cant switch on the fly ,



its a known issue. OT said they would have a fix in their next update. Same thing happening on my end in Cubase.


----------



## richard kurek

fish_hoof said:


> its a known issue. OT said they would have a fix in their next update. Same thing happening on my end in Cubase.


thank you i thought i was having a senior moment


----------



## jacobthestupendous

richard kurek said:


> am i missing something or is it an issue , keyswitch not working , . my daw shows the keyboard is fine , i can control with expression maps , but cant switch on the fly ,


There's a known issue where C-2 won't work unless you move the keyswitch range up and then back down again. It's a hassle, but a minor one.


----------



## richard kurek

jacobthestupendous said:


> There's a known issue where C-2 won't work unless you move the keyswitch range up and then back down again. It's a hassle, but a minor one.


that did it thanks


----------



## KEM

ProfoundSilence said:


> what kind of hard drive are you using?



Samsung SSD


----------



## KEM

And I’m on VEP running into Cubase


----------



## jacobthestupendous

KEM said:


> I’m having the same issue with SINE as I’m having with Spitfire’s player, it just pops and cracks and drops out all the time, never had this issue with Kontakt, and I’m upset cause I genuinely like what the SINE player does but I just can’t use it cause it won’t work


How many instruments and microphones are you triggering at once? It's pretty easy to get some absurd voice counts going and choke up a system.


----------



## KEM

jacobthestupendous said:


> How many instruments and microphones are you triggering at once? It's pretty easy to get some absurd voice counts going and choke up a system.



Each instrument in JXL brass is loaded, but only 1 mic for each


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jacobthestupendous said:


> How many instruments and microphones are you triggering at once? It's pretty easy to get some absurd voice counts going and choke up a system.


I am using like 8 mics with 4 sections at once with an 850 evo and I'm not having that. 

but I'm not on vepro


----------



## KEM

The RAM on my slave machine is at around 80% usage with my full VEP template loaded


----------



## synthetic

Same here. I have a decent system with all of the brass loaded with one mic each and it's complete crackles as soon as I press a key. I tried raising the preload to 500ms and if anything it made it worse. 

Looking at the CPU in the bottom right of VEP7, it jumps to 90% when I press one key! After idling at 4-5%. If I press a key in Kontakt or Spitfire BBC player it doesn't move that CPU meter at all. Looking at the V-frame is the same, idles at 3-5% and jumps to 85-93% when I press one note. 

It was working fine yesterday, maybe I'll switch back to 250ms preload? There was a mandatory Windows Update on my machine, I hope that didn't kill anything. 

I had the same keyswitch bug and I changed all of the keyswitches to start at C-1 in options, instead of C-2.


----------



## KEM

I just changed all my key switches to C6, but I can't get my head around all this cracks and pops.


----------



## shawnsingh

KEM said:


> I just changed all my key switches to C6, but I can't get my head around all this cracks and pops.



Hope you get that sorted out soon.

What if you try it without VEP?


----------



## KEM

shawnsingh said:


> Hope you get that sorted out soon.
> 
> What if you try it without VEP?



At the moment I’m not able to, my slave machine doesn’t have Cubase on it and my master machine doesn’t have enough storage for it. So at the moment I have to stick to how I have it, if I render the midi out to audio it sounds fine, but that’s a hassle and I don’t want to have to do that


----------



## Dominik

Hey, anyone know something about the pre-order Master Class offer?


----------



## Benjamin Duk

Dominik said:


> Hey, anyone know something about the pre-order Master Class offer?



Junkie said it will happen early next year.


----------



## Dominik

Hi all, anyone here who uses Komplete Kontrol as a plug-In in Cubase? 
I have some issues with that combined with Sine and would be interested in how it is working on similar systems.


----------



## Dominik

Benjamin Duk said:


> Junkie said it will happen early next year.


Thank you!


----------



## Eptesicus

My biggest issue is SINE hanging/not responding when clearing the articulation list or closing it.

Happens in standalone and as a plug in (stops Cubase closing when used as a plug in).

Doesnt happen all the time, but it's pretty frequent.

Anyone else on windows getting this?


----------



## Benjamin Duk

Eptesicus said:


> My biggest issue is SINE hanging/not responding when clearing the articulation list or closing it.
> 
> Happens in standalone and as a plug in (stops Cubase closing when used as a plug in).
> 
> Doesnt happen all the time, but it's pretty frequent.
> 
> Anyone else on windows getting this?



I'm on Windows 10, AMD system and don't seem to get this issue on Stand Alone. I haven't had a chance to try much with plugin in Cubase yet, but when I did try it, it seemed to be fine as well.


----------



## Eptesicus

Benjamin Duk said:


> I'm on Windows 10, AMD system and don't seem to get this issue on Stand Alone. I haven't had a chance to try much with plugin in Cubase yet, but when I did try it, it seemed to be fine as well.



Interesting. Are you running the latest/most up to date windows build?

I have an Intel system so there is a difference there I guess.

Havent had any issues like this with Kontakt (or anything else for that matter). PC has been 100% stable and smooth running for years, so this is definitely a SINE issue.


----------



## C-Wave

Dominik said:


> Hi all, anyone here who uses Komplete Kontrol as a plug-In in Cubase?
> I have some issues with that combined with Sine and would be interested in how it is working on similar systems.


I don't know if it is related but can't edit a patch name when VSL Synchron Player is loaded under Komplete Kontrol under Cubase. VSL tech told me that this is a NI proplem and he suggested that he forwards my email to them. Windows 10.


----------



## Dominik

C-Wave said:


> I don't know if it is related but can't edit a patch name when VSL Synchron Player is loaded under Komplete Kontrol under Cubase. VSL tech told me that this is a NI proplem and he suggested that he forwards my email to them. Windows 10.


At my system I have stutters and drop outs when I load in Komplete Kontrol with an Instrument Track.
Of course not with some few instances but with medium cpu load I get those issues. I am in contact with support but since they are more or less helpless so far I wanted to know if anyone else has similar issues. Maybe it´s just my computer. I seem to have always issues with new player plug-ins.I had /have also severe problems with Hans Zimmer Strings.


----------



## xanderscores

Eptesicus said:


> My biggest issue is SINE hanging/not responding when clearing the articulation list or closing it.
> ...
> Anyone else on windows getting this?



I too got that bug pretty soon after I started playing around with the SINE player. I forwarded it to support along with a screen capture because they obviously couldn't reproduce it on their side.
I found out two things:
* it's more likely to happen when switching tabs within the player
* it doesn't really hang. SINE is still up and running. If you close the vst window via windows task bar (maybe you have to wait a bit for this to happen), you can see that the instance is still loaded. By activating it in Cubase (the "e" button) the GUI is brought forward again and you can use it. This way no data will be lost. Don't mind the Cubase error message.
Hope that helps.

btw: Otherwise my SINE is running very smoothly and producing great sound and performance. I'm very surprised that it doesn't have more bugs. I haven't run it in VEpro yet (no need to on my side), but I can imagine that this is something that hasn't been tested as thoroughly as within standard DAWs.


----------



## Eptesicus

Virtuoso said:


> Odd background crashing noise on Trombones a3 at the top 2 dynamic levels affecting F#2 & G2 (see attached)
> 
> I also got a download error message saying:-
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what to do about this error, since it doesn't tell me which instrument it relates to and gives me no option to re-download or try again - just a 'Close' box.



I also got this download error message when downloading more of the library today. Like you, i have no idea what instrument it was for.

@OrchestralTools any ideas?


----------



## synthetic

KEM said:


> The RAM on my slave machine is at around 80% usage with my full VEP template loaded



Is your CPU jumping to 90% like mine in VEP7? (Bottom right corner.)


----------



## KEM

synthetic said:


> Is your CPU jumping to 90% like mine in VEP7? (Bottom right corner.)



I’ll have to take a look and see


----------



## Dominik

Is there a manual of the sine player somewhere? I would like to understand the advanced settings because I have issues and hope to improve performance.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Dominik said:


> Is there a manual of the sine player somewhere? I would like to understand the advanced settings because I have issues and hope to improve performance.





OT_Tobias said:


> You can find a full documentation for all features at https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/
> (...)


----------



## Mike Greene

I've moved all the posts about Staypuft's demos to this thread in the Forum Suggestions and Complaints section. In fairness to OT, who had nothing to do with this controversy, please post there on this topic, rather than here.

I moved this to Forum Suggestions and Complaints, rather than the Drama Zone, because I think this is something of importance to the forum, rather than simple drama.





Junkie XL Brass? - Staypuft "demo" spinoff


I've moved this discussion here. (For those unfamiliar with what happened, read the first few posts, then the payoff post is Post #27 on page 2 by Blakus.) This is an important discussion, and it's here, rather than the Drama Zone, because obviously fake demos are not cool. It seems there may...




vi-control.net


----------



## 5Lives

Any tips on how best to imitate double and triple tonguing with JXL? Start with the shortest shorts and progressively use longer ones for each repetition, ending on the marcato?


----------



## Eptesicus

How many notes do libraries normally make from actual recorded notes ? I thought it was normally 2 notes for each actual recorded one.

This library obviously isn't chromatically sampled, but I was quite surprised to find that Gb3 - Bb3 on horns 12 sustains at full dynamics all have the same dodgy attack...

That is 5 notes that all seem to be derived from the same sample. Obviously it is quite possible the same dodgy attack was done on another recorded note, but it seems odd all 5 notes suffer from the same thing.


----------



## NoamL

Normally libraries do whole tone sampling, so two chromatic notes per sample.


----------



## BenHicks

After playing with JXL brass for a bit, I'm convinced that there are, in fact, actually 6 dynamic layers.

pianissimo
mezzo piano
mezzo forte
forte
fortissimo
F*CKTISSIMO


----------



## Tice

BenHicks said:


> After playing with JXL brass for a bit, I'm convinced that there are, in fact, actually 6 dynamic layers.
> 
> pianissimo
> mezzo piano
> mezzo forte
> forte
> fortissimo
> F*CKTISSIMO



I suggest we call it 'EverythingAndTheKitchenSinkissimo' :D


----------



## prodigalson

here's a little doodle I threw together in 5 mins on first play around. Really loving these softer layers. Other instruments are Time Micro, Berlin Strings and BWW. Timp is from SF Perc.

A touch of the UAD 480L


----------



## CT

prodigalson said:


> here's a little doodle I threw together in 5 mins on first play around. Really loving these softer layers. Other instruments are Time Micro, Berlin Strings and BWW. Timp is from SF Perc.
> 
> A touch of the UAD 480L



Lovely. Best argument I've heard for this library so far.


----------



## Architekton

prodigalson said:


> here's a little doodle I threw together in 5 mins on first play around. Really loving these softer layers. Other instruments are Time Micro, Berlin Strings and BWW. Timp is from SF Perc.
> 
> A touch of the UAD 480L



Excellent, excellent, I am in love. Pls, finish this!


----------



## Real JXL

prodigalson said:


> here's a little doodle I threw together in 5 mins on first play around. Really loving these softer layers. Other instruments are Time Micro, Berlin Strings and BWW. Timp is from SF Perc.
> 
> A touch of the UAD 480L



Lovely piece! Thanks for doing that!

Tom


----------



## Real JXL

Eptesicus said:


> How many notes do libraries normally make from actual recorded notes ? I thought it was normally 2 notes for each actual recorded one.
> 
> This library obviously isn't chromatically sampled, but I was quite surprised to find that Gb3 - Bb3 on horns 12 sustains at full dynamics all have the same dodgy attack...
> 
> That is 5 notes that all seem to be derived from the same sample. Obviously it is quite possible the same dodgy attack was done on another recorded note, but it seems odd all 5 notes suffer from the same thing.




I will look into this! Xxx


----------



## Real JXL

5Lives said:


> Any tips on how best to imitate double and triple tonguing with JXL? Start with the shortest shorts and progressively use longer ones for each repetition, ending on the marcato?




Depends on speed and rhythm.... In my trailer demo I had 3 tripplets 16th ending on downbeat 8th note... I did 3 staccatissimo’s of which first had accent; downbeat was stacc accent...

And with accent I mean higher velocity...


----------



## 5Lives

Real JXL said:


> Depends on speed and rhythm.... In my trailer demo I had 3 tripplets 16th ending on downbeat 8th note... I did 3 staccatissimo’s of which first had accent; downbeat was stacc accent...
> 
> And with accent I mean higher velocity...



Thanks for the tip! Looking forward to the masterclass. Happy Holidays, Tom!


----------



## prodigalson

Real JXL said:


> Lovely piece! Thanks for doing that!
> 
> Tom



Thanks Tom! Flattered you listened and commented. 

Congrats on the library. I don’t often write music that calls for Horns a12 at fff so I had written off this library until I heard the lower dynamics in 2nd walkthrough and was blown away. I took a risk on the preorder just because of that. I’m happy to report that I have not been disappointed. 

Looking forward to what else you have planned with OT


----------



## Real JXL

KEM said:


> At the moment I’m not able to, my slave machine doesn’t have Cubase on it and my master machine doesn’t have enough storage for it. So at the moment I have to stick to how I have it, if I render the midi out to audio it sounds fine, but that’s a hassle and I don’t want to have to do that




What version Vep are you running?

I run v6 and I use two mic streams that I merged myself... I run it on 2015 server Xeon 6 core... I can play up to 64 midi notes at the time before breaking up... 64 midi notes means hundreds of audio streams... I use sine settings as it comes without changes... also use same ssd

Xxx

Tom


----------



## Real JXL

prodigalson said:


> Thanks Tom! Flattered you listened and commented.
> 
> Congrats on the library. I don’t often write music that calls for Horns a12 at fff so I had written off this library until I heard the lower dynamics in 2nd walkthrough and was blown away. I took a risk on the preorder just because of that. I’m happy to report that I have not been disappointed.
> 
> Looking forward to what else you have planned with OT




Thanks!! By switching off the top 2 dynamics and active soft layer switch you will have a blast programming orchestral natural stuff.... one tip! The intro of trumpet I would help a tad fading on expression so it feels a little less blunt... beautiful writing! It reminded me a bit of the daphney and chloe bit I uploaded here 6 days ago!

Would love to hear final results!

Xxx

Tom


----------



## Raphioli

Really nice of you Tom to aggressively getting involved (chiming in) with problems/bugs people are having after release, using your valuable time.
Very much appreciated.


----------



## prodigalson

Real JXL said:


> Thanks!! By switching off the top 2 dynamics and active soft layer switch you will have a blast programming orchestral natural stuff.... one tip! The intro of trumpet I would help a tad fading on expression so it feels a little less blunt... beautiful writing! It reminded me a bit of the daphney and chloe bit I uploaded here 6 days ago!
> 
> Would love to hear final results!
> 
> Xxx
> 
> Tom



Absolutely. Thanks for the tip! It’s truly a testament to this library how good it sounds with less than 10mins attention to it. also says a lot about a library when the very first notes you play in the first few seconds inspire the potential for a whole piece.

Only a handful of my libraries have done that so quickly.


----------



## Real JXL

prodigalson said:


> Absolutely. Thanks for the tip! It’s truly a testament to this library how good it sounds with less than 10mins attention to it. also says a lot about a library when the very first notes you play in the first few seconds inspire the potential for a whole piece.
> 
> Only a handful of my libraries have done that so quickly.



One of the best compliments we’ve had!!


----------



## Real JXL

Iswhatitis said:


> Love Junkie XL Brass! Great work, Hendrik!! Now I need Junkie XL Percussion, Strings, Woodwinds, Piano, and Drums!!



What you really want is the JXL triangle library!! Its 2 Tb but it’s awesome! 🤮


----------



## Real JXL

Raphioli said:


> Really nice of you Tom to aggressively getting involved (chiming in) with problems/bugs people are having after release, using your valuable time.
> Very much appreciated.



It’s important because I spend 2 years with OT developing this! I will answer as much as I can on VI control as time permits!

Xxx

Tom


----------



## KEM

Real JXL said:


> What version Vep are you running?
> 
> I run v6 and I use two mic streams that I merged myself... I run it on 2015 server Xeon 6 core... I can play up to 64 midi notes at the time before breaking up... 64 midi notes means hundreds of audio streams... I use sine settings as it comes without changes... also use same ssd
> 
> Xxx
> 
> Tom



I‘m running it on VEP7, not with the latest update though. I have an Intel i7 6700k with 32gb of DDR4 RAM, if I open up SINE completely by itself in VEP it works fine, but under the weight of the rest of my template it seems to be cracking badly, even though I’ve still got about 20% of RAM available.


----------



## jononotbono

A 2 tb triangle. Someone would buy it though wouldn't they!


----------



## KEM

jononotbono said:


> A 2 tb triangle. Someone would buy it though wouldn't they!



👀


----------



## tebling

jononotbono said:


> A 2 tb triangle. Someone would buy it though wouldn't they!



Due to the triangle's unique ultrasonic harmonic signature, the engineers were required to sample the library at 666kHz at 42 mic positions and across 196 articulations including bartok pizzicato and multi tongued. _No compromises._


----------



## jononotbono

tebling said:


> 666kHz



Obviously a favourite amongst metalheadz.


----------



## Uiroo

tebling said:


> Due to the triangle's unique ultrasonic harmonic signature, the engineers were required to sample the library at 666kHz at 42 mic positions and across 196 articulations including bartok pizzicato and multi tongued. _No compromises._


They should put out a template for it for each DAW. #onetriangle 
That gives you the chance to share your project for others to see what you did with the triangle.


----------



## YFM

Made this within a few minutes of having the library, the note velocity and note range capability blows out any boomer library out there. You'll know this cue from the prologue of Man of Steel, for reference.


----------



## wbacer

Anyone using JXL Brass in surround with VEPro 7?
Directly in Cubase, I can set up the SINE player so that the surround mic outputs 5/6 go out to my surround speakers but when using a surround instance in VEPro if I set the SINE surround mic outputs to 5/6 I don't see any output from VEPro. I emailed VSL but Paul said they had not yet tested SINE with VEPro 7. Anyone out there tried this?


----------



## Tvliesin

prodigalson said:


> here's a little doodle I threw together in 5 mins on first play around. Really loving these softer layers. Other instruments are Time Micro, Berlin Strings and BWW. Timp is from SF Perc.
> 
> A touch of the UAD 480L



holy shit. this is amazing. Simple but extremely powerful. Very nice.


----------



## shawnsingh

prodigalson said:


> here's a little doodle I threw together in 5 mins on first play around. Really loving these softer layers. Other instruments are Time Micro, Berlin Strings and BWW. Timp is from SF Perc.
> 
> A touch of the UAD 480L



which mic positions are the JXL brass? Any extra panning/reverb? It feels more spacious than the basic tree, I think.

Sounds beautiful!


----------



## Tvliesin

Anyone help me out real quick? How do I see the progress of the downloads in sine player? I am downloading the basic kit and it’s showing the yellow bar moving but no percentages or any way for me to tell that it’s stuck or not. First time using sine player.


----------



## Nils Neumann

Real JXL said:


> What you really want is the JXL triangle library!! Its 2 Tb but it’s awesome! 🤮



Hey Tom, those Triangles better have a solid legato! Developers always forget portamentos...

and by the way (shameless self-plug) I put a ton of work into composing/producing this for OT and You. Would love to know what you think about my piece


----------



## nas

Tvliesin said:


> Anyone help me out real quick? How do I see the progress of the downloads in sine player? I am downloading the basic kit and it’s showing the yellow bar moving but no percentages or any way for me to tell that it’s stuck or not. First time using sine player.




Click on the download sign (arrow pointing downwards) in the upper right corner:


----------



## Scalms

I have the same sort of issues. My remedy? Download sections at a time starting when I go to bed, I wake up, and wala! Everything installed. If I wake up in the middle of the night to check on it, it looks completely frozen like nothing is happening, but by morning everything is done. this is what OT told me-to just let it go and assured me it’s doing something. if you downloaded a bunch at one time it will take awhile


----------



## Tvliesin

nas said:


> Click on the download sign (arrow pointing downwards) in the upper right corner:


Thanks nas


----------



## nas

Tvliesin said:


> Thanks nas



You're welcome.


----------



## Loïc D

For what it’s worth, Staypuft was right on something :
I tried the mute simulation (from a Fabfilter ProQ profile that someone posted here aeons ago), and it works surprisingly good !
It’s a solid workaround before real mutes are available.
This library keeps surprising me.

Once I’ve got some free time, I’ll also experiment by loading a modified save : there seems to be potential (otsave files are simple XML no hard to catch).


----------



## Noeticus

LowweeK said:


> For what it’s worth, Staypuft was right on something :
> I tried the mute simulation (from a Fabfilter ProQ profile that someone posted here aeons ago), and it works surprisingly good !
> It’s a solid workaround before real mutes are available.
> This library keeps surprising me.
> 
> Once I’ve got some free time, I’ll also experiment by loading a modified save : there seems to be potential (otsave files are simple XML no hard to catch).



Can you tell us what the settings are?


----------



## jason.d

Noeticus said:


> Can you tell us what the settings are?



I’ve pulled this off on trumpets using match eq from a muted sample and applied it to my raw trumpet track. I used Fabfilter Pro Q but I think most EQs have this feature.


----------



## Tvliesin

Noeticus said:


> Can you tell us what the settings are?



I second this


----------



## kmm08

After testing for a few days, brass instruments have nice large dynamic range to them, more so than most other libraries. Room tone blends well with other OT instruments such as Berlin Brass. SINE player, however, needs a lot of work. Reported a few lists of issues/bugs already in the first day or two. More like in beta version than ready for prime time use.


----------



## YFM

Here's a more fleshed out practical use of the library within another full cue from Man of Steel.


----------



## korruptkey

Trumpet A6 legato, E8 to F8 and vice versa, the legato transition seems to be noisy.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

korruptkey said:


> Trumpet A6 legato, E8 to F8 and vice versa, the legato transition seems to be noisy.


6 trumpets IS a lot of noise lol

I will say I had a few minutes the other night and adding slow legato transitions to the marcato patches was pretty nice, but I'd really like to use the fast transitions on the shorts... @Orchesis there any reason you've disabled legato from being added to shorts aside from the fact that it's not clearly intended use lol


----------



## Loden Reinheim

Here's some mockups I made using JXL Brass: 
Mostly using just natural close and tree mics, no external processing.


----------



## AlainTH

it seems this bank is ideal for hollywood cinemascope style


----------



## prodigalson

shawnsingh said:


> which mic positions are the JXL brass? Any extra panning/reverb? It feels more spacious than the basic tree, I think.
> 
> Sounds beautiful!



Thanks. I left my rig for Christmas so not able to say for sure but I think this is what I did:

Solo Horn - Mid at default setting, Close maybe 80% the default setting, a little AB, a little surround 1

Solo Trumpet - probably same or similar to Horn

Pads in 2nd half 
Trombones a3 - Tree at default, No close mics, More AB than Solos (60%?), more Surr 1 than solos (75-80%?)

Horns a4 (doubling Bones) - Same settings as bones 

I didn’t pan anything but think a lot of the stereo width comes from the AB. I did boost the level of the solo horn and trumpet a few dB. 

There is a little bit of reverb with the UAD Lexicon 480L. Standard Large Hall setting with the tail length down to about 1.8s


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Loden Reinheim said:


> Here's some mockups I made using JXL Brass:
> Mostly using just natural close and tree mics, no external processing.


thanks for following up!


----------



## Nils Neumann

While reading through all the comments on Youtube and VI-C I realized that most of the demos and tracks posted just used the Alan Meyerson mixes and the very large ensemble sizes. Which led to the sentiment that JXL Brass can only pull of that very modern overhyped brass sound.

That why created this little mockup. This time I only used the unprocessed decca tree mics. I didn’t applied any post processing, no eq, no compression for the Junkie XL Brass. Just a tiny little bit of reverb at the end of the chain.

Of course John Powell still used a very large Brass section. I know it is still no classical brass section used here. But I didn't used any of the a12 Trombone or Horn patches, neither the a6 Trumpet patch.

I’m very pleasantly surprised with the results I got without any mixing and complex multi mic set ups for JXLB


----------



## nas

Nils Neumann said:


> While reading through all the comments on Youtube and VI-C I realized that most of the demos and tracks posted just used the Alan Meyerson mixes and the very large ensemble sizes. Which led to the sentiment that JXL Brass can only pull of that very modern overhyped brass sound.
> 
> That why created this little mockup. This time I only used the unprocessed decca tree mics. I didn’t applied any post processing, no eq, no compression for the Junkie XL Brass. Just a tiny little bit of reverb at the end of the chain.
> 
> Of course John Powell still used a very large Brass section. I know it is still no classical brass section used here. But I didn't used any of the a12 Trombone or Horn patches, neither the a6 Trumpet patch.
> 
> I’m very pleasantly surprised with the results I got without any mixing and complex multi mic set ups for JXLB




Thanks for this, I think a few people wanted to hear the unprocessed mics for a more natural sound and this is quite helpful. I would also consider switching of the top fff layer for a more "classic" sound with a little less buzz and rasp. It's amazing the range of this library and the top layers can really go over the top.


----------



## Consona

Loden Reinheim said:


> Here's some mockups I made using JXL Brass:
> Mostly using just natural close and tree mics, no external processing.


Hm, dunno if that's programming but I've heard the Fellowship theme played by CSB and it sounded way better.


----------



## AlainTH

interesting but it seems the sound here is not coherent with the style of this kind of music. it would be interesting to hear jxl brass with other styles of orchestral compositions.


----------



## Loden Reinheim

Consona said:


> Hm, dunno if that's programming but I've heard the Fellowship theme played by CSB and it sounded way better.



You're right, it could use better programming and mixing. I originally mocked this up using CSB, and then replaced the brass when JXLB came out for comparison's sake. 
Here is the CSB version, and then just the brass soloed out.


----------



## borisb2

Loden Reinheim said:


> Here is the CSB version, and then just the brass soloed out.



I think it's the third comparison where I would prefer CSB over JXLB tone wise .. CSB just shines nicer in my opinion .. thanks for doing that.

PS: just bought Cinebrass Pro yesterday (on sale at the moment).. what a killer combo together with Core .. that Sony stage is just awesome. Think now I'm really covered with CSB, Cinebrass and HWB .. well, one should never say that .. its almost christmas after all


----------



## shawnsingh

I've been playing with pp-mf region, disabling the ff and fff layers, and it's like a whole other library! The solo players in that velocity region are on par with Berlin brass.

I'd like to understand more about how velocity layers are mapped. How do layers get mapped across the velocity range by default? And what happens to the mapping when disabling layers? And what happens to the mapping when using "soft first layer"? How much overlap is used to Crossfade?


----------



## shawnsingh

Consona said:


> Thx for the info. Was just wondering how big is the sound difference between a3 and a6 sections.



As promised (well I said I'd make a video, but I really don't have much of a recording/editing setup) here's an mp3 of solo vs ensembles playing the exact same MIDI.

horns, solo vs a4 vs a6** vs a12
trumpets, solo vs a3 vs a6
trombones, solo vs a3 vs a6 vs a12

All parts except horn staccato compariosons use only pp-mp-mf layers. Horn staccato also used ff layer.

**Horn a6, I did tweak the MIDI to avoid some awkward legato imperfections. In good faith, midi is quite similar though.

I bet there may be other mic positions that expose the difference more dramatically. I only used natural tree mic here. I feel the difference is slightly understated, but I like it that way.

I noticed that horns a6 and trombones a6 seem to be slightly more subdued than a3 and a12. I wonder if there was some fatigue in their sampling session? =) In any case, since the difference is less obvious than I expected, I think it's a good thing - can offer a slightly different color than a3/a4 or a12 patches, if needed, without being too far off the intended instrumentation.

And lastly - the legato on horns and trumpet solo are really nice. I lost track of time just noodling around just to enjoy it. To be picky, sometimes I feel like release trails overlap awkwardly in the legato, especially on fast legato. Is it possible that's something that can be fixed with re-editing or re-scripting? Still, I feel like this legato is already on par with legato from any other library that I've heard.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

amazing how consistent the swapping seems. 

you know how annoying it is that I cant play with this library despite preordering it?? loo


----------



## Consona

Loden Reinheim said:


> You're right, it could use better programming and mixing. I originally mocked this up using CSB, and then replaced the brass when JXLB came out for comparison's sake.
> Here is the CSB version, and then just the brass soloed out.


Thx, JLXB sound pretty good here, better than CSB in this particular example, IMO.


borisb2 said:


> I think it's the third comparison where I would prefer CSB over JXLB tone wise .. CSB just shines nicer in my opinion .. thanks for doing that.
> 
> PS: just bought Cinebrass Pro yesterday (on sale at the moment).. what a killer combo together with Core .. that Sony stage is just awesome. Think now I'm really covered with CSB, Cinebrass and HWB .. well, one should never say that .. its almost christmas after all


The Sony stage is truly special, maybe it's also mics used or dunno what, but CineBrass sound is still the best IMO. Those instruments sound so warm yet have that solid and open high end at the same time.


shawnsingh said:


> As promised (well I said I'd make a video, but I really don't have much of a recording/editing setup) here's an mp3 of solo vs ensembles playing the exact same MIDI.
> 
> horns, solo vs a4 vs a6** vs a12
> trumpets, solo vs a3 vs a6
> trombones, solo vs a3 vs a6 vs a12
> 
> All parts except horn staccato compariosons use only pp-mp-mf layers. Horn staccato also used ff layer.
> 
> **Horn a6, I did tweak the MIDI to avoid some awkward legato imperfections. In good faith, midi is quite similar though.
> 
> I bet there may be other mic positions that expose the difference more dramatically. I only used natural tree mic here. I feel the difference is slightly understated, but I like it that way.
> 
> I noticed that horns a6 and trombones a6 seem to be slightly more subdued than a3 and a12. I wonder if there was some fatigue in their sampling session? =) In any case, since the difference is less obvious than I expected, I think it's a good thing - can offer a slightly different color than a3/a4 or a12 patches, if needed, without being too far off the intended instrumentation.
> 
> And lastly - the legato on horns and trumpet solo are really nice. I lost track of time just noodling around just to enjoy it. To be picky, sometimes I feel like release trails overlap awkwardly in the legato, especially on fast legato. Is it possible that's something that can be fixed with re-editing or re-scripting? Still, I feel like this legato is already on par with legato from any other library that I've heard.


Very nice, thank you! Glad you used the natural mics and not the processed ones.

Hmmm, I actually like the trombones the best.

Still cannot decide which section sizes I should get.  a6 sound like a good compromise, but horns a6 indeed have some weird legato, and yes, horns and trombones a6 sound subdued when using the same midi, but increasing the dynamics CC should compensate for that, am I right?

If you have enough time, keep these demos coming! Really enjoying nitpicking the differences.  

Could you post some very fast passages, like this one?


----------



## Eptesicus

Loden Reinheim said:


> You're right, it could use better programming and mixing. I originally mocked this up using CSB, and then replaced the brass when JXLB came out for comparison's sake.
> Here is the CSB version, and then just the brass soloed out.



I genuinely prefer the jxl version here. Interestingly my partner (who isn't a conposer) was sitting next to me when listening ti these and commented that she liked the XL version better as well ( without knowing which one was which, she just said she like the second one best )

Interestingly I thought jxl did the legato parts in a more natural way. In csb the dynamics and note connections of the legato part sounded more unnatural and disconnected to the other bits.

Dont get me wrong, CSB still sounds lovely. I think jxl has the edge here though.


----------



## jamwerks

OT, I'd love an expansion with, among other things, a Horn Solo n.2. Then if you could build a patch that incorporates the two soloists (like MSB has done), so that when playing 4 note cordes, we get 1,2,1,2. No need to have all four soloists imo !!


----------



## prodigalson

One of my favorite things about this library are the natural attacks. Even the soft attacks have clear entrance where you can actually hear the players start to push the air especially on higher notes. It may be jarring to some who may expect almost from niente but it’s very realistic to how Brass players actually sound


----------



## OT_Tobias

Hey folks,

Thank you all so much for your feedback over the first days of SINE Player and JXL Brass.
We are going through all reports and feedback and are already planning the next steps!

Before the holidays, we are happy to release the first maintenance update for SINE Player.

SINE Player 1.0.1 brings the following changes:

Features:

Downloads now can be canceled and SINE Player will delete aborted downloads
SINE Player will not reload into DFD when no samples are changed (= less CPU cycles)
The macOS installation process has been improved
Fixes:

C-2 can now be selected via MIDI
Log Files are now called SINEPlayer.log instead of OTSampler.log
Fixed a rare issue where SINE Player would freeze or crash when switching from Store/MyLicenses to another tab

Download the SINE Player installer from http://www.getsine.com (www.getsine.com) and just install on top of your existing version.

Happy Holidays and all the best from the OT Team!


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey everyone.
This is the new Junkie XL Brass demo 'Let the Games Begin'


We hope you like it. Thanks so much for all your comments and feedback. We have updated SINE (as Tobias has said) so make sure to download the SINE Player installer from getsine.com and install on top of your existing version.

If you have any issues please reach out to our dedicated support email addresses: [email protected] and [email protected]

Happy holidays from us all here at Orchestral Tools!

Best,

OT Team


----------



## borisb2

OrchestralTools said:


> Happy holidays from us all here at Orchestral Tools!


Wow, it must have been around midnight (before christmas) in berlin when posting this. That is dedication 👍👍.. amazing demo!

Greetings from NZ und frohe Weihnachten auch an Euch alle! 🏝


----------



## galactic orange

I had a guess that this was Sascha’s work about halfway through the piece. Stellar. Really excited to hear the mellow sounds and the brighter sections in this context. This brass both blends well and stands out.


----------



## sourcefor

I want this ,......well maybe next year!


----------



## AlainTH

Exactly, ideal for film , not for orchestral


----------



## ProfoundSilence

AlainTH said:


> Exactly, ideal for film , not for orchestral


use just the mid + tree + one of the surrounds for depth/width. there is absolutely nothing wrong with just writing with the solo horn + a4 horn /1 +a3 trumpets/+solo and a3 trombone + tuba. 

im currently experimenting with making my own mic mixes - but I actually think the a4 horn is better than the a6 horn. There isn't a library than I can think of that can beat the trombones in this. If your goal is the write purely orchestral music - your best bet will still be the berlin series - but the berlin series can sound just as filmy(just doesn't have those ffffffff sustain layers). Might be time for you to just pedal lback a little and wait for people to do more traditional orchestral arrangements with it - rather than jump to conclusion based on demos that almost all use the alan Myerson tree(which has all sorts of effects, saturation, distortion, ect)


----------



## Consona

So any demos of some fast legato/runs?


----------



## I like music

Consona said:


> So any demos of some fast legato/runs?



Did you see the new Infinite Brass update demo? Has some fast runs in it. Also some screenshots of the runs. Wonder if someone would attempt to recreate that with the JXL solo trumpet as a test?



The post with the screenshot can be found here:






Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread


Not that far off. It'll be worth it, trust me. In fact you don't have to take my word for it, here's a "quick" demo. Trumpet 1. Soloist position (in the middle, closer to the main mics for a more exposed sound). Yes, this is pretty much unprocessed (mild compression), out of the box...




vi-control.net


----------



## AlainTH

ProfoundSilence said:


> use just the mid + tree + one of the surrounds for depth/width. there is absolutely nothing wrong with just writing with the solo horn + a4 horn /1 +a3 trumpets/+solo and a3 trombone + tuba.
> 
> im currently experimenting with making my own mic mixes - but I actually think the a4 horn is better than the a6 horn. There isn't a library than I can think of that can beat the trombones in this. If your goal is the write purely orchestral music - your best bet will still be the berlin series - but the berlin series can sound just as filmy(just doesn't have those ffffffff sustain layers). Might be time for you to just pedal lback a little and wait for people to do more traditional orchestral arrangements with it - rather than jump to conclusion based on demos that almost all use the alan Myerson tree(which has all sorts of effects, saturation, distortion, ect)


I use beelin brass already... and i have only the demos for gave an idea of this new brass set. surr have to wait for others examples than videos style music.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

AlainTH said:


> I use beelin brass already... and i have only the demos for gave an idea of this new brass set. surr have to wait for others examples than videos style music.




if you only write in a strickly classical format, there is no real benefit to buying JXL brass. I wish I had the sine player with my berlin series stuff - but its fine for now


----------



## novaburst

You will get some good insight, buy watching this


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

NoamL said:


> Normally libraries do whole tone sampling, so two chromatic notes per sample.


Given that developers are normally pitching the samples up or down to cover two notes, do you know if they tend to favor pitching up versus down? Maybe one gives a slightly better result?


----------



## Tvliesin

My remake/cover of prodigalson's post on here. I used a trumpet for the 90 second high sustain note that no human could actually achieve and I went a bit heavier on the chords, should have held back a little more as well as used a little less reverb but aside from that it was fun little afternoon project.


----------



## KEM

As some of you may have already seen I recently made my own rendition of the iconic Terminator theme after hearing the amazing score by @Real JXL on the new film, and now that we have his new sample library, I thought it'd be a perfect to go back and replace all the brass with JXLB for a good comparison as to what this library can do compared to others on the market. In my opinion, JXLB blows all of them away, it instantly sounded bigger, louder, and brassier!! I'm just posting the JXLB version in this post, but I'm keeping the original up in case anyone wants to compare for themselves.

SoundCloud:


YouTube:


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Tvliesin said:


> My remake/cover of prodigalson's post on here. I used a trumpet for the 90 second high sustain note that no human could actually achieve and I went a bit heavier on the chords, should have held back a little more as well as used a little less reverb but aside from that it was fun little afternoon project.



lol nah dude I held that note down for 90 seconds and I wasnt tired at all - i see no reason why a trumpet player couldn't also just play a trumpet sustain on a keyboard for that note XD


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

Merry X-mas everybody!

Had a quick go at a Christmas song with some lower dynamics
I´ve used the normal close and tree mic´s


----------



## Real JXL

GuitarG said:


> Merry X-mas everybody!
> 
> Had a quick go at a Christmas song with some lower dynamics
> I´ve used the normal close and tree mic´s




Really nice sounding Sir! Wow


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

Real JXL said:


> Really nice sounding Sir! Wow



Bedankt Tom 
Leuk dat je even geluisterd hebt

Really enjoying the library! Great effort by all involved 👌💪


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I still haven't had time to really be home with JXL brass - but when I was toying with the mic merge feature I ended up making 2 custom microphones(a "closer" mix and a "natural" mix) 

th is is simply so that if I wanted I could automate the close mic dependant on what's playing with it. (i.e. using more close mic's on woodwinds) I literally noodled on a few articulations played in live. it's a little drier than I'd probably use - which is so that I have room for a dash of reverb. I can't tell you enough how awesome it is to get a really nice sound using only microphones + merging them. I REALLY wish I could use sine for my other libraries. ALSO you can control the volume per articulation it seems(which is something I really wish I had on some berlin series)

edit: I should say that I didn't use any of the Myerson/JX mics - just the natural microphones + the reverb processed microphones. If folks are interested - I can separate the two mixes separately and upload them in a few days. I did accentuate the width of with some panning on some microphones - that's mainly to keep some space open in the mix/clarity.


----------



## Nicola74

I really would like that someone with more experience than me about mixing would post their mic setup, this would be very useful for me


----------



## shawnsingh

Nicola74 said:


> I really would like that someone with more experience than me about mixing would post their mic setup, this would be very useful for me



I'm also interested to hear from people experienced in multi-mic mixing. It's one thing to "try and use our ears and just choose what sounds good", but there are a lot of combinations.


----------



## KEM

Nicola74 said:


> I really would like that someone with more experience than me about mixing would post their mic setup, this would be very useful for me



I believe Tom said he’d be discussing that in one of his future videos on the library.


----------



## Nicola74

KEM said:


> I believe Tom said he’d be discussing that in one of his future videos on the library.


This would be great!


----------



## Peter Satera

Looking at @Real JXL 's @OrchestralTools new vid where Tom created a sound design omni-patch from the brass, it would be awesome if not only we could merge mics, but merge instruments. 

It's a bit more complex, but similar if it's merging samples and re-exporting for mics. Could technically do the same for the instruments. I get it's early days, but it would be awesome for a Sine player future feature, and help reduced footprint, while maintaining the dynamics.


----------



## germancomponist

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey everyone.
> This is the new Junkie XL Brass demo 'Let the Games Begin'
> 
> 
> We hope you like it. Thanks so much for all your comments and feedback. We have updated SINE (as Tobias has said) so make sure to download the SINE Player installer from getsine.com and install on top of your existing version.
> 
> If you have any issues please reach out to our dedicated support email addresses: [email protected] and [email protected]
> 
> Happy holidays from us all here at Orchestral Tools!
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT Team



Great composition!
What I do not like here is the sound. I miss dynamic .... . And to my ears it sounds very digitally ... .
I bet this digital sounding sound is not part of the library, but was created by the plugins that were used for mastering. ...


----------



## wbacer

Anyone here know how to delete a custom merged mic mix?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

wbacer said:


> Anyone here know how to delete a custom merged mic mix?


it's a file on the computer, although that's not the most elegant solution


----------



## wbacer

ProfoundSilence said:


> it's a file on the computer, although that's not the most elegant solution


Yes it is but it would be nice if the ability to delete a custom mic mix was built into the interface... next update?
Excellent library and new player


----------



## Manuel Stumpf

wbacer said:


> Anyone here know how to delete a custom merged mic mix?


You can delete mic positions in the library view:
Just right click your merged mic position.





Edit: It would be valuable if one could set a default mic for the instrument in this context menu (RightClick->SetAsDefaultMic), so that it loads by default with the correct one.


----------



## wbacer

Manuel Stumpf said:


> You can delete mic positions in the library view:
> Just right click your merged mic position.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: It would be valuable if one could set a default mic for the instrument in this context menu (RightClick->SetAsDefaultMic), so that it loads by default with the correct one.


Ah, thank you, the joys of learning a new interface...that worked.


----------



## NickDorito

Just checking in again to say you really don't get the full potential of this library until you play with the mic positions.






Consider something like this to be your starting point and tweak from there. JXL Brass with settings similar to these blend like nothing else. Incredible work.


----------



## Benjamin Duk

NickDorito said:


> Just checking in again to say you really don't get the full potential of this library until you play with the mic positions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Consider something like this to be your starting point and tweak from there. JXL Brass with settings similar to these blend like nothing else. Incredible work.



Is this more for a close modern mix?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I panned the close mid and even some of the others slightly.

I had different values but imo I prefer using microphones to sculpt more than just percieved depth/width- but also the tone. Some mics are more sensitive to different room buildup/the body of the instrument... its useful because you wont need to EQ as much out, or EQ. 

any particular productions people like the sound of?


----------



## Benjamin Duk

ProfoundSilence said:


> I panned the close mid and even some of the others slightly.
> 
> I had different values but imo I prefer using microphones to sculpt more than just percieved depth/width- but also the tone. Some mics are more sensitive to different room buildup/the body of the instrument... its useful because you wont need to EQ as much out, or EQ.
> 
> any particular productions people like the sound of?



It would be nice if we could make a traditional sounding mix like a John Williams Superman score and also have a mix for a modern score like a Hans Zimmer / Junkie XL score.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Benjamin Duk said:


> It would be nice if we could make a traditional sounding mix like a John Williams Superman score and also have a mix for a modern score like a Hans Zimmer / Junkie XL score.


I'll be honest, I have no desire to recreate vintage productions like superman. 

I doubt many clients will ask for a retro production like that either, since it's really niche. if I want that sound I would probably just use samplemodeling/infinite brass


----------



## Benjamin Duk

ProfoundSilence said:


> I'll be honest, I have no desire to recreate vintage productions like superman.
> 
> I doubt many clients will ask for a retro production like that either, since it's really niche. if I want that sound I would probably just use samplemodeling/infinite brass



I would still like to know what mics at what volumes will create that mix with JXL brass.


----------



## jamwerks

Those who have bought: What do you think about the quality of the cross-fades, to minimize phasing?


----------



## Loïc D

jamwerks said:


> Those who have bought: What do you think about the quality of the cross-fades, to minimize phasing?


Didn’t check crossfade for each instrument and each articulation, but it’s very solid. No phasing issue so far.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Benjamin Duk said:


> I would still like to know what mics at what volumes will create that mix with JXL brass.


That's going to be a mixture of close and mid microphones with a dash plate Reverb, a relatively narrow mix and very little low end

I mean you can literally go mono if you're just trying to get the effect, similar to that project Mike verta worked on where he made his 60s Star Trek template for that Samurai film


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jamwerks said:


> Those who have bought: What do you think about the quality of the cross-fades, to minimize phasing?


It's a tough comparison, I don't think it's quite as smooth as csb but like 95% there oh, but it handles all Dynamics a lot better

the only patch I can use to test would be the four horns and tubas


----------



## Gerter

NickDorito said:


> Just checking in again to say you really don't get the full potential of this library until you play with the mic positions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Consider something like this to be your starting point and tweak from there. JXL Brass with settings similar to these blend like nothing else. Incredible work.



When you say it blends well, do you mean it is easy to blend it with other VSTs that have a different room sound? Or am I misunderstanding?


----------



## Benjamin Duk

ProfoundSilence said:


> That's going to be a mixture of close and mid microphones with a dash plate Reverb, a relatively narrow mix and very little low end
> 
> I mean you can literally go mono if you're just trying to get the effect, similar to that project Mike verta worked on where he made his 60s Star Trek template for that Samurai film



Thanks for the insight. I always thought they relied more on a tree mic for older scores?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Benjamin Duk said:


> Thanks for the insight. I always thought they relied more on a tree mic for older scores?


 it depends on the era, a tree is like three microphones which doesn't mean anything if the score is in mono other then providing a potential phasing issue if it's not set up well


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Infinite Brass 1.3 — Expansion 01 Adds 2 Bass Trumpets and 2 Euphoniums
 






vi-control.net





I was not intentionally trying to get that sound, I just happened to be experimenting with combining the two libraries and it felt similar

Considering that's the sound I got by accident I'm sure if I made the effort that's the starting place I would use


----------



## Benjamin Duk

ProfoundSilence said:


> it depends on the era, a tree is like three microphones which doesn't mean anything if the score is in mono other then providing a potential phasing issue if it's not set up well



If we take Harry Potter for instance. I assume that would be a mix of Tree, Close, Outriggers, surround?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Benjamin Duk said:


> If we take Harry Potter for instance. I assume that would be a mix of Tree, Close, Outriggers, surround?


which Harry Potter film?

it's more microphones than that. you dont pay for that room, those musicians, book the hall, engineer, ect and not have a crap ton of microphones. 

listen to mike vertas 'the race' recorded/mixed hy shawn Murphy himself(starwars)

take vertas virtuosity class and he gives you the murphy stems to the race


----------



## jamwerks

That would be on the sustains and legati...


----------



## Benjamin Duk

ProfoundSilence said:


> which Harry Potter film?
> 
> it's more microphones than that. you dont pay for that room, those musicians, book the hall, engineer, ect and not have a crap ton of microphones.
> 
> listen to mike vertas 'the race' recorded/mixed hy shawn Murphy himself(starwars)
> 
> take vertas virtuosity class and he gives you the murphy stems to the race



The first Harry Potter film. 

Ok great I'll look into Mike Verta's "the race".


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Benjamin Duk said:


> The first Harry Potter film.
> 
> Ok great I'll look into Mike Verta's "the race".


first example: literally just a4 jxl tree single mic



2nd example: much closer mics are involved(and a mix)



keep in mind this is the SAME song - and yet completely different mixes(because it's a professional score)

attached is what the 2nd example(much closer and more brittle) looked like. 

very crude midi examples


----------



## ProfoundSilence

in comparison, here is the same crude example ran back through my "ambient" and "close" custom mics. I'm testing it this way, because i'd rather have the two to be able to automate for this very reason - so that I can add more close when needed - or keep a more ambient tone. 

ofcourse I think my ambient/tree tone for horns there is better than any pre-mixed CSB or cinebrass mixed mic , but hey you might not feel that way(obviously im bias, I made it to my liking lol)

I uploaded them separately, so if you want to drag them into your DAW and hear what it sounds like blended between those two(wether it's even, 3:2, 2:1, 1:5 - doesn't matter)


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Benjamin Duk said:


> Ok great I'll look into Mike Verta's "the race".




mike's stems from that recording are by shawn murphy(you can see him at the control board around 1:03). He provides them in his virtuosity class(mostly about vi/mockup tips when it comes to attempting to approximate things with VI)

the score for the race is actually available as well - as part of the putting it together


----------



## Benjamin Duk

ProfoundSilence said:


> first example: literally just a4 jxl tree single mic
> 
> 
> 
> 2nd example: much closer mics are involved(and a mix)
> 
> 
> 
> keep in mind this is the SAME song - and yet completely different mixes(because it's a professional score)
> 
> attached is what the 2nd example(much closer and more brittle) looked like.
> 
> very crude midi examples




Wow, thanks for taking the time to share and post so much information. I really appreciate it.

Seeing your mic mix really helps. It would be really cool if @OrchestralTools would release preset mixes like this that we can just load or an ability to get user mixes that can be stored in the player. Very useful.

Good job the Harry Potter mixes. Sounds good!

I'll definitely get the Mike Verta class. Looks very good. I enjoy watching him.


----------



## Taj Mikel

Is anyone else experiencing issues with SINE crashing Cubase?


----------



## benatural

Couldn't find an answer elsewhere, but does anyone know when the pre-order masterclass is happening?


----------



## jacobthestupendous

benatural said:


> Couldn't find an answer elsewhere, but does anyone know when the pre-order masterclass is happening?


They haven't announced yet other than to say that it won't happen until next year.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jacobthestupendous said:


> They haven't announced yet other than to say that it won't happen until next year.


**probably** january

next year is technically true, but they used the words "after the new year"


----------



## AlainTH

i plan to use sine/jxl and kontakt vst in same projects with cubase 10.5 / windows 10. is this working well?


----------



## Taj Mikel

AlainTH said:


> i plan to use sine/jxl and kontakt vst in same projects with cubase 10.5 / windows 10. is this working well?


I’m running into crashes. On Cubase 10. Haven’t determined cause yet.


----------



## AlainTH

mmm... i wait... kontakt works well and stable for my other libraries, it is precious.


----------



## Eptesicus

AlainTH said:


> i plan to use sine/jxl and kontakt vst in same projects with cubase 10.5 / windows 10. is this working well?



Has an issue when closing a project after using it for a while. Just hangs/freezes (Cubase 10 on windows).

I think this is linked to the bug where it freezes when unloading articulations (more often than not).


----------



## Benjamin Duk

Taj Mikel said:


> Is anyone else experiencing issues with SINE crashing Cubase?



I did have a crash the other day where I was deleting articulations in the list and it crashed Cubase. Had to force quit it.


----------



## Benjamin Duk

benatural said:


> Couldn't find an answer elsewhere, but does anyone know when the pre-order masterclass is happening?



Junkie said it would be early next year. Probably first quarter some time.


----------



## Eptesicus

Benjamin Duk said:


> I did have a crash the other day where I was deleting articulations in the list and it crashed Cubase. Had to force quit it.



I'm glad others are reporting this! There definitely seems to be an issue with clearing articulations.


----------



## MrksSchndr

Benjamin Duk said:


> I did have a crash the other day where I was deleting articulations in the list and it crashed Cubase. Had to force quit it.



Same for me, sometimes also when dragging an articulation from the lib to the player. Cubase process gets inactive while still playing. Only killing the process helps. Cubase 8.5 used. Maybe it's time for an upgrade though I do not experience this with Kontakt.


----------



## Benjamin Duk

MrksSchndr said:


> Same for me, sometimes also when dragging an articulation from the lib to the player. Cubase process gets inactive while still playing. Only killing the process helps. Cubase 8.5 used. Maybe it's time for an upgrade though I do not experience this with Kontakt.



Upgrading won't help. I'm on Cubase 10.5. 

@OrchestralTools needs to bug fix this. Not sure it this only happens with Cubase or other DAW's.


----------



## AlainTH

the best would be the library jxl in kontakt format


----------



## Peter Satera

AlainTH said:


> the best would be the library jxl in kontakt format



I understand the request for Kontakt version of JXLBrass, especially at these early teething stages where stability is an issue. But the sine player shows way more potential at this point than kontakt, and shows loads of innovation. 

The launch features are very promising. Mic Merging, downloading / deleting per mic / instrument, turning on and off dynamic ranges, round robin controls, sample attack/release control, extension of any instruments range, legato volume control. Remapping controls. Granted, some of these are in kontakt, but OT have a real game contender here for future composing. 

Seeing what they are doing here, OT could also make an instrument merge feature, where you can merge and collapse the instruments, reducing the footprint overall too. You can't do that with kontakt, you would have to make a custom instrument, and then possibly code legato transitions too. People are having issues at this point, but it's early days. It's not even been two weeks yet.


----------



## AlainTH

give lot of money for having problems with something which could be optionnal is not the good way. It will be always good time, (later........) to switch with sine interface...


----------



## Oxytoxine

I also fell for the hype and bought JXL brass. After a night of playing with it, I am not sure what to think of it. My hopes were so high – I expected to open the instrument and be blown away by the sound. But to be honest, my first impression is disappointment, but I am sure that it is too early to tell this definitively.


As has often been mentioned, I too find the sound overprocessed, at times synth-like, even with the unprocessed mics. I will have to investigate further with different mic positions.


For the “unrivalled dynamic range”: I can not feel that. The only other dedicated brass library I have is Chris Hein Orchestral Brass (which I previously thought it might be OK but not as good as the other flagships, based on things I’ve read here), and to be honest: to me the Hein Brass has a bigger dynamic range. I later looked it up, and indeed it has 8 dynamic layers, as compared to the 5 of JXL, but it’s also apparent strictly by ear.


The same goes for the “unparalleled consistency” argument everyone was raving about. JXL indeed is extremely consistent, but not more so than the Hein, which furthermore has much more articulations.


On the solo instruments, I clearly prefer the tone and timbre of the Hein Brass. Sounds just more detailed, expressive, through the whole dynamic range, which is at least as big and in most cases actually bigger than JXL. Where the Hein falls apart for me personally is with the ensembles. Indeed there JXL sounds more “brassy” and better to me.


I am sure that a lot of this is just the “being used to” factor, and A/B-ing two libraries is not a good idea, something always gets spoiled. I am sure that if I only had JXL it would feel fantastic, and I will get used to it. It’s a great instrument, don’t get me wrong. But I really wonder whether it will suit me for more classical writing.


P.S: I by no means am affilitated or so with Hein, just thought to share my experience, because it was so surprising to me. As I did not have another “flagship” brass library, I obviously underestimated the Hein Orchestral Brass, thinking that JXL would be a whole different level, but it isn’t. Maybe it’s like in love: in order to really appreciate and value what one has, one has first to make a different experience


----------



## Peter Satera

Oxytoxine said:


> It’s a great instrument, don’t get me wrong. But I really wonder whether it will suit me for more classical writing.



As this is a JXL library, I didn't expect it to be suitable for classical writing. I was a keen listener of Toms film scores and from that I believed the library would be determined by that type of writing. I find it's interesting that people buy the library, and will try out classical, John Williams melodies, etc. It didn't happen for HZstrings, people weren't trying John Williams runs. At this point, I've only seen KEM try out a JXL track, or when Tom played Alita on it yesterday.

To me, this is a JXL library and that style of writing and sound is how it's purposed. Listening to Chris Hein ( I don't own it), I'd absolutely turn to that if I was thinking more 90's _Alan Silvestri, w_hich is a *gorgeous *sound too. You may have best of both worlds now.


----------



## nas

Benjamin Duk said:


> Upgrading won't help. I'm on Cubase 10.5.
> 
> @OrchestralTools needs to bug fix this. Not sure it this only happens with Cubase or other DAW's.



This happens to me as well with SINE in VEP 7 and Logic.


----------



## AlainTH

i look also at 8dio century brass.


----------



## Peter Satera

AlainTH said:


> i look also at 8dio century brass.



Yeah, I have that bundle, it's a great Brass lib! As well as the strings.


----------



## Oxytoxine

Peter Satera said:


> As this is a JXL library, I didn't expect it to be suitable for classical writing. I was a keen listener of Toms film scores and from that I believed the library would be determined by that type of writing. I find it's interesting that people buy the library, and will try out classical, John Williams melodies, etc. It didn't happen for HZstrings, people weren't trying John Williams runs. At this point, I've only seen KEM try out a JXL track, or when Tom played Alita on it yesterday.
> 
> To me, this is a JXL library and that style of writing and sound is how it's purposed. Listening to Chris Hein ( I don't own it), I'd absolutely turn to that if I was thinking more 90's _Alan Silvestri, w_hich is a *gorgeous *sound too. You may have best of both worlds now.



You are so right – it was a dumb / uninformed expectation of me. It is clear: want JXL sound, get JXL Brass, it’s clearly written on the box 


But still I was so drawn into the hype in this thread and of the “from the softest to the loudest”, the “it’s the mother of all brass libs” talk etc. that I feel kind of brainwashed, but this is my own fault. I too like the JXL scores a lot, and also his previous electronic work – great stuff!

And I was also really just very astonished that no one ever mentioned the Hein Brass when discussing the "unparalleled consistency, dynamic layers" etc. of JXL Brass.

Your last sentence is consoling and very true, why not look at it from the positive side and having the best of both worlds


----------



## Peter Satera

Oxytoxine said:


> You are so right – it was a dumb / uninformed expectation of me. It is clear: want JXL sound, get JXL Brass, it’s clearly written on the box
> 
> But still I was so drawn into the hype in this thread and of the “from the softest to the loudest”, the “it’s the mother of all brass libs” talk etc. that I feel kind of brainwashed, but this is my own fault. I too like the JXL scores a lot, and also his previous electronic work – great stuff!
> 
> And I was also really just very astonished that no one ever mentioned the Hein Brass when discussing the "unparalleled consistency, dynamic layers" etc. of JXL Brass.
> 
> Your last sentence is consoling and very true, why not look at it from the positive side and having the best of both worlds



We've all been there, when our expectations driven by the hype can become so massive when it comes it's not as revolutionary it's bolstered to be. We've seen what happens when things are hyped way too much. It's a dangerous marketing game to play too, classing something as "Groundbreaking", "Revolutionary" or "Unparalleled" as we've seen before, then when it doesn't pan out, the backlash can be vicious. I do really like JXL brass, but it's because I love smacking people in the face with _Jack Sparrow's_ Alita's dick.


----------



## nas

Oxytoxine said:


> You are so right – it was a dumb / uninformed expectation of me. It is clear: want JXL sound, get JXL Brass, it’s clearly written on the box
> 
> 
> But still I was so drawn into the hype in this thread and of the “from the softest to the loudest”, the “it’s the mother of all brass libs” talk etc. that I feel kind of brainwashed, but this is my own fault. I too like the JXL scores a lot, and also his previous electronic work – great stuff!
> 
> And I was also really just very astonished that no one ever mentioned the Hein Brass when discussing the "unparalleled consistency, dynamic layers" etc. of JXL Brass.
> 
> Your last sentence is consoling and very true, why not look at it from the positive side and having the best of both worlds



When I first purchased this library, I too was concerned if I could create more "traditional" or more "old school" scores. While I agree that this library seems to live more comfortably in a JXL type of score, I have found it very usable and actually lovely sounding by using the unprocessed mics and _especially_ turning off the top two dynamic layers. Then experimenting more with the different mic positions can yield some very nice results.

Perhaps the only thing is that the sections are on the larger side and a2 patches would work better for more classical scores rather than larger sections. I know one can use a solo horn patch and play chords etc.. but it doesn't quite sound the same as an a2 patch.

Other than that, I would say don't be too discouraged. Try and experiment with the ideas mentioned above and maybe your favorite reverb and you may find you get great results.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

chris hein brass doesn't have nearly the same dynamic range. And using the intentionally processed hollywood hyped version of the microphone will get you that sound


imagine I open CH orchestral bass and am surprised I dont have the 40+ piece hyped inception brass sound lol. If CH has 8 dynamic layers it doesn't sound like it - its recorded practically in an anechoic setup, and is possibly one or the worst apples to oranges you can get with comparing brass libraries lol

I just think it's an irresponsible purchase followed by an irresponsible "first impression". 

I'm not planning on talking bad about CH brass, I'll just say its radically different- and if someone just bought it with 0 information and then complained that it wasnt what they wanted it to be, and made no effort to figure out what it was before complaining about it, you'd think that would be silly right?


----------



## Sovereign

Peter Satera said:


> As this is a JXL library, I didn't expect it to be suitable for classical writing. I was a keen listener of Toms film scores and from that I believed the library would be determined by that type of writing. I find it's interesting that people buy the library, and will try out classical, John Williams melodies, etc. It didn't happen for HZstrings, people weren't trying John Williams runs. At this point, I've only seen KEM try out a JXL track, or when Tom played Alita on it yesterday.


Williams' style is defined primarily by composition and orchestration. I see no reason why you could not get a Williams-like sound from JXL brass. Just don't use the fffffffff layers and avoid the biggest sections.


----------



## Nils Neumann

Sovereign said:


> Williams' style is defined primarily by composition and orchestration. I see no reason why you could not get a Williams-like sound from JXL brass. Just don't use the fffffffff layers and avoid the biggest sections.


yes, composition and orchestration with intricate part writing. This is really not the library for John Williams sound. As much as Tom wanted to push that sentiment. But kinda obvious when you look at the instruments sample.


----------



## Sovereign

Nils Neumann said:


> yes, composition and orchestration with intricate part writing. This is really not the library for John Williams sound. As much as Tom wanted to push that sentiment. But kinda obvious when you look at the instruments sample.


There is no actual 'library for John Williams' sound', they are all samples with different degrees of flexibility. It would be false to say that JW avoids using a fairly large brass section (some scores have 6 horns, 4 bones, 4 trumpets) and does small intricate brass writing only, if that is the point you're trying to make. Sure, it would be nice to have a2 patches too, but do you seriously believe that a3 is going to sound so widely different from using a2 to play polyphonic? In the end Williams sounds like Williams because of his typical style and writing, not because there's an additional trumpet of trombone playing in a mix done with samples.


----------



## xanderscores

As a listener of film music I'm not at all a Junkie XL fanboy, and as a composer I'm much more into traditional symphonic writing, so I was very reluctant to buy the JXL Brass. However, from my experience with other OT libraries I gave it a shot and I have to say, it's more playable than, say, VSL and Spitfire. I'm going with the small sections (3 Tb, 3 Tp, 4 Hrns...) and the solo instruments, and it sounds beautiful and even tender if used with the right mic setting (mainly tree). Maybe there's other brass libraries out there that do the soft parts better, but as of now I feel that JXLBrass is a pretty usable, versatile tool.


----------



## Oxytoxine

ProfoundSilence said:


> chris hein brass doesn't have nearly the same dynamic range. And using the intentionally processed hollywood hyped version of the microphone will get you that sound
> 
> 
> imagine I open CH orchestral bass and am surprised I dont have the 40+ piece hyped inception brass sound lol. If CH has 8 dynamic layers it doesn't sound like it - its recorded practically in an anechoic setup, and is possibly one or the worst apples to oranges you can get with comparing brass libraries lol
> 
> I just think it's an irresponsible purchase followed by an irresponsible "first impression".
> 
> I'm not planning on talking bad about CH brass, I'll just say its radically different- and if someone just bought it with 0 information and then complained that it wasnt what they wanted it to be, and made no effort to figure out what it was before complaining about it, you'd think that would be silly right?



Of course it is an apple vs orange comparison – I mentioned the point about my “irresponsible expectations” above clearly. My mistake. Neither did I want to talk bad about JXL. It’s just that, as Niels and several other mentioned, there was a strong push that JXL brass would also cover the more classical or “traditional side”, which in my opinion it may well do, but not to the degree I expected after reading e.g. this thread. The same concerning the dynamic range. I was not complaining, just sharing my “0 informed” and “silly” experience. Be gentle, I’m new in this game and have to learn by trial and error 


It’s comments like “Chris hein brass doesn’t have nearly the same dynamic range” that can give uninformed newbies like me really a wrong impression of the instrument.


I do not have the time or intent to argue, hope all of you will enjoy your new inception brass, I will too


----------



## Oxytoxine

Just a very short comparison regarding the dynamic range. Nothing musical, just the same midi snippets, mapped dynamics in both JXL and CH Brass to CC11 and draw a straight line to go through all of the dynamic layers. Close mic on JXL (I know this does not do it justice, but to compare it to the bone dry CH Brass it seems the most suited to me). No verb on both. Trumpet shorts on CH, marcato short in JXL, in a crude attempt to land the length of the notes in the same ballpark for the sake of the comparison.Tubas longs.

Sound and timbre are a matter of opinion. I like the JXL tuba, but man this trumpet is not my cup of tea.


----------



## Peter Satera

Sovereign said:


> Williams' style is defined primarily by composition and orchestration. I see no reason why you could not get a Williams-like sound from JXL brass. Just don't use the fffffffff layers and avoid the biggest sections.



It is, and with such you need the right library to be able to manage the composition. My point was, rarely anyone looking for that classical or John Williams sound would see this and think 'yup - jxlbrass is the one for me'. There's more to Williams than just not using dynamic layers. For instance, no mutes.

In addition, I'm extremely pleased by my purchase and excited by JXL Brass. So I'm not dissing the library. Quite the opposite, JXLbrass knows what it is, and does it exceptionally well!


----------



## Nils Neumann

Sovereign said:


> There is no actual 'library for John Williams' sound', they are all samples with different degrees of flexibility. It would be false to say that JW avoids using a fairly large brass section (some scores have 6 horns, 4 bones, 4 trumpets) and does small intricate brass writing only, if that is the point you're trying to make. Sure, it would be nice to have a2 patches too, but do you seriously believe that a3 is going to sound so widely different from using a2 to play polyphonic? In the end Williams sounds like Williams because of his typical style and writing, not because there's an additional trumpet of trombone playing in a mix done with samples.


 Berlin Brass... anyway, my point is that JW uses instruments not like fixed ensembles, but as individuals. Nothing to do with the section sizes, but how he uses these sections.
And yes I seriously believe that the a3 patch is not suitable for polyphonic trumpet writing (don’t know why you are a little aggressive on that one). There are tricks to get around that, but the still sound very hyped and gigantic. Which I actually like. 

My way around that in my demo for JXLB was to use the tp a3 patch for the top line and the solo trumpets for supporting the missing 2 notes of the triad below.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

The second example doesn't even make sense, no idea what articulation you are using , it doesn't even sound like you are moving the mod wheel

I'm not sure if your concern troll or what oh, but you would have to intentionally Miss program that part entirely in order to come up with that result


----------



## Oxytoxine

ProfoundSilence said:


> The second example doesn't even make sense, no idea what articulation you are using , it doesn't even sound like you are moving the mod wheel
> 
> I'm not sure if your concern troll or what oh, but you would have to intentionally Miss program that part entirely in order to come up with that result



Huh? What do you mean? I am not trolling. As mentioned - just a linear cc curve to go through all the dynamic layers, with the Tuba sustains / leg patch. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but what?


----------



## Nils Neumann

Oxytoxine said:


> Huh? What do you mean? I am not trolling. As mentioned - just a linear cc curve to go through all the dynamic layers, with the Tuba sustains / legato patch. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but what?


common, there is no legato on the JXL Tuba, and that JXL Trumpet example resembles in no way how it actually sounds.


----------



## Oxytoxine

Nils Neumann said:


> common, there is no legato on the JXL Tuba, and that JXL Trumpet example resembles in no way how it actually sounds.



I swear, this sound is what comes out here! It may well be that I have something set up completely wrong, but I would have no idea what and would be glad to know? I would be very happy if that is the case! I will now stop to spam this thread, I am clearly not advanced enough for this participation, but honestly I am not trolling and have no clue why it sounds as it does here.


----------



## Robin

Oxytoxine said:


> Huh? What do you mean? I am not trolling. As mentioned - just a linear cc curve to go through all the dynamic layers, with the Tuba sustains / leg patch. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but what?


Wrong CC. JXL uses CC1 for dynamics.


----------



## Oxytoxine

Robin said:


> Wrong CC. JXL uses CC1 for dynamics.



Thanks I know, but see the picture above: I changed dynamics to CC11 in the controller map


----------



## Robin

Oxytoxine said:


> Thanks I know, but see the picture above: I changed dynamics to CC11 in the controller map


Right. Maybe a bug. Did you try with the default settings?


----------



## AlainTH

Oxytoxine said:


> Just a very short comparison regarding the dynamic range. Nothing musical, just the same midi snippets, mapped dynamics in both JXL and CH Brass to CC11 and draw a straight line to go through all of the dynamic layers. Close mic on JXL (I know this does not do it justice, but to compare it to the bone dry CH Brass it seems the most suited to me). No verb on both. Trumpet shorts on CH, marcato short in JXL, in a crude attempt to land the length of the notes in the same ballpark for the sake of the comparison.Tubas longs.
> 
> Sound and timbre are a matter of opinion. I like the JXL tuba, but man this trumpet is not my cup of tea.


the trumpet xl sounds poorly compared to CH


----------



## Nils Neumann

AlainTH said:


> the trumpet xl sounds poorly compared to CH


Because it is programmed poorly


Oxytoxine said:


> I swear, this sound is what comes out here! It may well be that I have something set up completely wrong, but I would have no idea what and would be glad to know? I would be very happy if that is the case! I will now stop to spam this thread, I am clearly not advanced enough for this participation, but honestly I am not trolling and have no clue why it sounds as it does here.


what did you use for the trumpet, the staccatos?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I literally posted a legato example of the trumpet in this thread.

I I am desperately trying to believe that somebody that works with Chris Hein instruments, that have a ton of Sliders that are assigned to multiple parameters manages to have zero competency when it comes to using a very standard configuration for virtual instruments

so not only did you make I completely uninformed purchase, didn't bother checking the mic settings, and magically forgot how to use a virtual instrument that works like 99% of the virtual instruments on the market, but you made sure to what I can only imagine is spend more time complaining about your initial impressions then you could have possibly spent with the software

Nothing about this adds up


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Nils Neumann said:


> Because it is programmed poorly
> 
> what did you use for the trumpet, the staccatos?


There is no way those are staccatos oh, I'm not at the computer but those are probably Marcato Long's with the mod wheel all the way up and round Robins disabled or something


----------



## Oxytoxine

Nils Neumann said:


> Because it is programmed poorly
> 
> what did you use for the trumpet, the staccatos?



No, the marcato shorts (the staccatos were too short for the comparison, and, if I remember correctly, are controlled by velocity – not at home currently to check). I did not really think about all of this, I just wanted to compare the two.

I am well aware that this does not make sense musically and that this line could have been played by a 3 years old, the sole intent was to compare the shifting through the dynamic layers, not to program a musical line.


----------



## Oxytoxine

ProfoundSilence said:


> I literally posted a legato example of the trumpet in this thread.
> 
> I I am desperately trying to believe that somebody that works with Chris Hein instruments, that have a ton of Sliders that are assigned to multiple parameters manages to have zero competency when it comes to using a very standard configuration for virtual instruments
> 
> so not only did you make I completely uninformed purchase, didn't bother checking the mic settings, and magically forgot how to use a virtual instrument that works like 99% of the virtual instruments on the market, but you made sure to what I can only imagine is spend more time complaining about your initial impressions then you could have possibly spent with the software
> 
> Nothing about this adds up



I kind of get your point, but why do you have to express it in such an unfriendly, righteous and condescending manner? When your little child, trying to get on a bike for the first time, falls on his nose, do you also stand there laughing and ridiculing it? Instead of maybe helping him in a friendly manner? Really, this attitude is the reason why I usually stay away from forums.

Look, I have a demanding day job, do sports semi-professionally, and besides try to fit in some time for my beloved hobby. Although I make music for my whole life, I started with daws and virtual instruments about a year ago. Every night I have maybe an hour or so to fiddle with all this stuff. In the last months I spent a huge amount of money on what was recommended to me as the best sample libs, because I would like to get more serious, now trying to wrap my head around all of this. So please forgive that I am an ignorant loser with zero competency and dare to ask a question / make a comment in a thread about a sample lib.

I mean, you could have simply said "check your mod wheel" or so


----------



## ProfoundSilence




----------



## AlainTH

*Oxytoxine *your comparison of dynamics range is interesting. Some here are very "unfriend", indeed... i don't see why...
*ProfoundSilence *thank you, this exemple is interesting also. this time the dynamics seems not so different for the trumpet (and the sound is different)...for the horns you programm, jxl is less well sounding IMO but dynamic has more amplitude.
Each library is so different, the point is to know them and buy/utilize with this knowing, so thank you.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Oxytoxine said:


> Look, I have a demanding day job


Plenty of us do(including myself)


Oxytoxine said:


> I mean, you could have simply said "check your mod wheel" or so


You could have simply checked your mod wheel before you bothered posting about the library. CH brass isn't a beginners library, and someone reading your original review doesn't know that you hadn't tried moving cc1. Your audio example was the most misleading noise you could make with the library that i can even think of, and understanding the software you purchased for ~600$ takes minutes at most. Less time than you spent making the example and posting it - that's why it's extremely concerning.

if you had made a post saying "I can't seem to figure out how to change the dynamics" or something, we'd be more helpful. instead it's like you bought a car and left a bad review because you couldn't see anything at night because you'd turned the headlights off.



AlainTH said:


> *Oxytoxine *your comparison of dynamics range is interesting. Some here are very "unfriend", indeed... i don't see why...


Because his comparison was asking two people to race, but shooting one of the competitors in the foot before the start of the race - and then complaining that he put his money on that person and they are much slower at running than they expected.


----------



## Loïc D

AlainTH said:


> *Oxytoxine *your comparison of dynamics range is interesting. Some here are very "unfriend", indeed... i don't see why...


Indeed there is no way in getting hostile to each other.
But, Oxytoxine’s programming on JXL makes that library ridiculous and thus the comparison is pointless.

It is already hard to compare the sounds of libraries in the hands of experts, but in the hands of beginners, it’s largely irrelevant.

Whatever the library you pick, it takes time to get the best out of it, and attempts at comparing stuff shall require a huge amount of experience with both products.

My 2c, I take articulation names with handful of salt. I choose art depending on the rendering / sound I’m looking for. I may end up using programmed sustains for tenuto or marcato just because it sounds better in the context I’m writing for.


----------



## zolhof

Nils Neumann said:


> that JXL Trumpet example resembles in no way how it actually sounds.



If you load the Close 1 or 2 microphones for the trumpet solo, as he did, and play his example, as he did, that's what you will get. I just tested it -- not pretty hehe

But to be fair, this is true for all close microphones in all libraries. I remember when Sample Modeling came out and folks didn't understand that you need a convo reverb to make it shine. Here's an ancient video of The Trumpet, before and after Altiverb:



In the case of JXLB, you are paying for the Teldex sound as well, @Oxytoxine . The close signal is useful for adding focus, I wouldn't even consider using anything other than the room mikes for exposed lines.

Happy Holidays!! 🎄🥳🎉


----------



## Oxytoxine

ProfoundSilence said:


>




Thank you very much for taking the time to do this - now that's a proper comparison. I will check again when at home tonight.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

LowweeK said:


> Indeed there is no way in getting hostile to each other.
> But, Oxytoxine’s programming on JXL makes that library ridiculous and thus the comparison is pointless.



I've become a sample miser, and admittedly I've been short on patience. The phrasing in his original post(intended or not) made me really get the mental image of someone buying something expensive putting in 0 effort and immediately complaining. When he posted the example using CH brass and then REALLY bad examples of JXL brass - I got suspicious that it's intentional. Sounds like maybe he is just radically new to VI, and randomly spent a bunch of time on CH but wasnt willing to spend the same on JXL? I don't know... but he is relatively new to the forum, magically knows how to operate the BBCSO sample player - likes the library, and has the opposite experience with JXL/sine. 

I'm not interested in call out culture, but I would be lying if I didn't atleast point out that I'm not fully convinced his experience is simply user error. Time will tell, sometimes people like GIMP but hate photoshop. I just think it seems really odd - maybe PT's statement about the possibility of turfing/ect got my paranoid.


----------



## Oxytoxine

zolhof said:


> If you load the Close 1 or 2 microphones for the trumpet solo, as he did, and play his example, as he did, that's what you will get. I just tested it -- not pretty hehe
> 
> But to be fair, this is true for all close microphones in all libraries. I remember when Sample Modeling came out and folks didn't understand that you need a convo reverb to make it shine. Here's an ancient video of The Trumpet, before and after Altiverb:
> 
> 
> 
> In the case of JXLB, you are paying for the Teldex sound as well, @Oxytoxine . The close signal is useful for adding focus, I wouldn't even consider using anything other than the room mikes for exposed lines.
> 
> Happy Holidays!! 🎄🥳🎉




Thank you very much for replicating this. I started to doubt my senses. Thanks also for the reminder about the use close mics and Teldex sound (I really just did it this way for the sake of the comparison). Happy holidays to you too.


----------



## Oxytoxine

ProfoundSilence said:


> Plenty of us do(including myself)
> 
> You could have simply checked your mod wheel before you bothered posting about the library. CH brass isn't a beginners library, and someone reading your original review doesn't know that you hadn't tried moving cc1. Your audio example was the most misleading noise you could make with the library that i can even think of, and understanding the software you purchased for ~600$ takes minutes at most. Less time than you spent making the example and posting it - that's why it's extremely concerning.
> 
> if you had made a post saying "I can't seem to figure out how to change the dynamics" or something, we'd be more helpful. instead it's like you bought a car and left a bad review because you couldn't see anything at night because you'd turned the headlights off.
> 
> 
> Because his comparison was asking two people to race, but shooting one of the competitors in the foot before the start of the race - and then complaining that he put his money on that person and they are much slower at running than they expected.



Thanks for editing your post and the analogy. I now get where you are coming from.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

AlainTH said:


> *Oxytoxine *your comparison of dynamics range is interesting. Some here are very "unfriend", indeed... i don't see why...
> *ProfoundSilence *thank you, this exemple is interesting also. this time the dynamics seems not so different for the trumpet (and the sound is different)...for the horns you programm, jxl is less well sounding IMO but dynamic has more amplitude.
> Each library is so different, the point is to know them and buy/utilize with this knowing, so thank you.



it's a strange comparison because it's not volume matched - and my "custom mix" is rather quiet in general. I wanted to record an example where I show exactly me opening the instruments - setting the controllers, recording midi and directly dropping it onto the next one.


Oxytoxine said:


> Thanks for editing your post and the analogy. I now get where you are coming from.



Like I said, I'm not saying your situation is impossible - I'm just a bit on guard because it seemed odd. After "mockup gate" and the conversation that followed it, I became a little more skeptical.


----------



## Oxytoxine

ProfoundSilence said:


> I've become a sample miser, and admittedly I've been short on patience. The phrasing in his original post(intended or not) made me really get the mental image of someone buying something expensive putting in 0 effort and immediately complaining. When he posted the example using CH brass and then REALLY bad examples of JXL brass - I got suspicious that it's intentional. Sounds like maybe he is just radically new to VI, and randomly spent a bunch of time on CH but wasnt willing to spend the same on JXL? I don't know... but he is relatively new to the forum, magically knows how to operate the BBCSO sample player - likes the library, and has the opposite experience with JXL/sine.
> 
> I'm not interested in call out culture, but I would be lying if I didn't atleast point out that I'm not fully convinced his experience is simply user error. Time will tell, sometimes people like GIMP but hate photoshop. I just think it seems really odd - maybe PT's statement about the possibility of turfing/ect got my paranoid.



I can assure you this is not the case, no reason for paranoia. It's as you described: new to VI, new to JXL, new to almost everything. I have libraries from all the companies, and if you have read my other posts then you also know that I made very critical comments on the other libraries.

Thanks for explaining, and I can now understand what you meant. I too have the impression that this forum is full of shills sometimes, and to be honest your first reaction made me think that you might be shilling for OT, just shooting down every "critical" comment, so I got defensive, too.

I'm just a simple user trying to find my way around this. And of course you are generally right in that I should spend more time with a lib before posting anything. And if I try to do a comparison then do it properly, and not in 5 minutes before hurrying to catch the train.

Although I will maintain my initial point about being a bit disappointed, it really does not sound as good to me as I hoped, and this is not only due to user error but also apparent in your examples. But as mentioned in the very beginning - this is fully my own fault. Like buying Coke but wanting Fanta.

If I really left CC1 full up, I am very ashamed  will check tonight. Peace and out.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Oxytoxine said:


> I can assure you this is not the case, no reason for paranoia.


There is a reason for paranoia, it's just not YOUR fault. Combination between me hating the holidays and December, being stressed and tired from working non stop since thanksgiving, and frankly just having a stressful job.


Oxytoxine said:


> If I really left CC1 full up, I am very ashamed  will check tonight. Peace and out.


you say that, but I HAVE(and others have) not moved modwheel CC1 and thought my installation of Dominus was broken, tried redownloading/ect repeatedly back and forth with paolo through the support email - and realized I just never moved the modwheel so it was silent. Atleast a few other people occasionally do that... and it's not even a new library thing - it happened to me twice, and didn't happen to me when I first bought it - I just straight up forgot I had to move the modwheel to have any sound. (maybe some companies have their modwheel 100% by default for that reason?)

btw you can control any of the artciulations with CC or velocity


----------



## Noeticus

I too have had the shock of loading a VST library and getting no sound, only to realize a bit later that the mod wheel was down. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!


----------



## Oxytoxine

ProfoundSilence said:


> There is a reason for paranoia, it's just not YOUR fault. Combination between me hating the holidays and December, being stressed and tired from working non stop since thanksgiving, and frankly just having a stressful job.
> 
> you say that, but I HAVE(and others have) not moved modwheel CC1 and thought my installation of Dominus was broken, tried redownloading/ect repeatedly back and forth with paolo through the support email - and realized I just never moved the modwheel so it was silent. Atleast a few other people occasionally do that... and it's not even a new library thing - it happened to me twice, and didn't happen to me when I first bought it - I just straight up forgot I had to move the modwheel to have any sound. (maybe some companies have their modwheel 100% by default for that reason?)
> 
> btw you can control any of the artciulations with CC or velocity



All good on my side - I hope that your work / life situation will relax in the foreseeable future!

Haha, thanks for sharing your mod wheel story - glad to know that I am not the only one making such mistakes 

Hopefully nevertheless happy holidays.


----------



## Eptesicus

I dont think any library sounds good using just the close mics with no reverb. 

What mic positions does Chris Hein have and which were used?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Eptesicus said:


> I dont think any library sounds good using just the close mics with no reverb.
> 
> What mic positions does Chris Hein have and which were used?


Chris hein is close mic + reverb. that's the only microphone


----------



## Raphioli

I didn't have time to check the forums and was surprised to see the new posts.
I can see why some people became "unfriendly" as someone pointed out.

Oxytoxine wrote the following line, but was actually doing the same thing with his/her example to JXL Brass IMHO.


Oxytoxine said:


> It’s comments like “Chris hein brass doesn’t have nearly the same dynamic range” that can give uninformed newbies like me really a wrong impression of the instrument.




And after reading every post, I can understand why ProfoundSilence got kinda suspicious.
I wouldn't have personally called it out, but definitely would have been suspicious.



Noeticus said:


> I too have had the shock of loading a VST library and getting no sound, only to realize a bit later that the mod wheel was down. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!


Anyways, I think I've experienced something similar for the first time when I got HWS.
Thought it was bugged, but was the mod wheel and expression pedal lol


----------



## tabulius

Riding mod wheel aka cc1 is one of the basic things we do with sample orchestras. Why are we discussing about this for two pages?! I’m confused - I need more coffee...


----------



## stargazer

ProfoundSilence said:


> I wanted to record an example where I show exactly me opening the instruments - setting the controllers, recording midi and directly dropping it onto the next one.


Ok, but why not adjust the octave for the horns at least to make the comparison a bit more relevant?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

stargazer said:


> Ok, but why not adjust the octave for the horns at least to make the comparison a bit more relevant?


I honestly didn't predict CH horns weren't going to be concert pitch. after a long 12 hour work day, I rushed it together so I could continue getting for bed so I would actually wake up for work the next day.


----------



## AlainTH

maybe in 2020 a signal from sine developers they hear the bug report with cubase and try to resolve?


----------



## kmm08

Multiple crashes using SINE (1.0.1) in VEPro reported. Already sent a number of crash logs all from the same day to the manufacturers. According to VSL's response, it appears that SINE player is definitely the cause of some of theses at least which makes sense since VEPro crashed while using SINE to load/unload sounds.


----------



## Eptesicus

kmm08 said:


> Multiple crashes using SINE (1.0.1) in VEPro reported. Already sent a number of crash logs all from the same day to the manufacturers. According to VSL's response, it appears that SINE player is definitely the cause of some of theses at least which makes sense since VEPro crashed while using SINE to load/unload sounds.



There is definitely an issue with the loading/unloading of the samples. I really hope they get to the bottom of it quickly.


----------



## nas

I've also been getting crashes when launching VEP 7 if there are SINE player instances in the metaframe. The instances start launching but when VEP 7 attempts to launch instances with SINE player the launching process basically gets stuck and VEP 7 locks up and becomes inactive. I have to restart my computer and usually a second attempt launches my template including all SINE player instances.


----------



## kmm08

Yes, unfortunately as far as I can tell, SINE player is definitely not fully compatible with VEPro at this point in time. Not sure which software/DAW they used when testing the actual plugin versions? Also would be interesting to find out if anyone has any better/worse results when using the VST vs AU versions of the plugin. I believe I had the AU version loaded (on a Mac Pro - High Sierra/Mojave).


----------



## holywilly

I have no problem with SINE & VEP 7, running rock solid here!

Mac OS Sierra, Mac Pro 6,1 here.


----------



## Marco

Talking about the Junky XL Brass, it seems to me that the vibrato comes out of an LFO.. someone can confirm it or am I paranoid?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Marco said:


> Talking about the Junky XL Brass, it seems to me that the vibrato comes out of an LFO.. someone can confirm it or am I paranoid?


think so, since vibrato is kind of rare for non jazz/pop brass


----------



## Bernard Duc

I had an absolute BLAST writing this cue between yesterday and today. It features almost only libraries I bought at the end of last year (mostly during Black Friday), and which I don't necessarily use as intended, as well as JXL Brass of course! You will hear some "multitonguing" using the short notes, and there is also a small bit with simulated mutes on the trumpets.

Those are my own microphone selection (no JXL/AM mixes) , and I used the fantastic mic merge pressure which reduces drastically the footprint. The whole thing could use some further mixing... but we are already the 5th!

Here is "Anthem for a New Decade". It's quite dark, fast paced, eclectic and diverse, but it also has hope.
@Real JXL @OrchestralTools, I hope you enjoy it!


----------



## jcrosby

nas said:


> I've also been getting crashes when launching VEP 7 if there are SINE player instances in the metaframe. The instances start launching but when VEP 7 attempts to launch instances with SINE player the launching process basically gets stuck and VEP 7 locks up and becomes inactive. I have to restart my computer and usually a second attempt launches my template including all SINE player instances.



Interesting, noticed VEP won't disconnect when closing bitwig. I installed the latest Sine player right around the time I updated BW so seems safe to assume it's the the same issue...


----------



## Bernard Duc

jcrosby said:


> Interesting, noticed VEP won't disconnect when closing bitwig. I installed the latest Sine player right around the time I updated BW so seems safe to assume it's the the same issue...


No problem here with VEP, but I noticed that the SINE player becomes highly unstable if you have the same samples loaded in more than one instance of the player (for example copying pasting a loaded instance of SINE in Reaper will make the whole thing crash immediately).


----------



## Nils Neumann

Bernard Duc said:


> No problem here with VEP, but I noticed that the SINE player becomes highly unstable if you have the same samples loaded in more than one instance of the player (for example copying pasting a loaded instance of SINE in Reaper will make the whole thing crash immediately).


Thats interesting, I will forward that to guys from OT.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Nils Neumann said:


> Thats interesting, I will forward that to guys from OT.


I haven't had that issue, reaper 6.01 here


----------



## Bernard Duc

ProfoundSilence said:


> I haven't had that issue, reaper 6.01 here


You don't get a crash if you copy paste a track with a loaded instance? That was on Windows by the way. 
But anyway, for me it's not a problem anymore now that I have it all setup in VEP with merged microphones. It's rock solid.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Bernard Duc said:


> You don't get a crash if you copy paste a track with a loaded instance? That was on Windows by the way.
> But anyway, for me it's not a problem anymore now that I have it all setup in VEP with merged microphones. It's rock solid.


nope. 

haven't tested it with vep(I don't have it installed tbh)


----------



## jcrosby

Bernard Duc said:


> You don't get a crash if you copy paste a track with a loaded instance? That was on Windows by the way.
> But anyway, for me it's not a problem anymore now that I have it all setup in VEP with merged microphones. It's rock solid.


This is indeed part of the scenario where i've been experiencing crashes.. I have a few duplicate patches in a "sketching" section of my template that use the same articulations as as my "full orchestra" section of the same template... Seeing that some also don't see purge working as expected I think its safe to assume that the current version of SINE has some memory-related issues.


----------



## Eptesicus

jcrosby said:


> This is indeed part of the scenario where i've been experiencing crashes.. I have a few duplicate patches in a "sketching" section of my template that use the same articulations as as my "full orchestra" section of the same template... Seeing that some also don't see purge working as expected I think its safe to assume that the current version of SINE has some memory-related issues.



Yeh I think many of these issues stem from problems with loading/unloading from ram.


----------



## AlainTH

so Sine player bugs with OT with no answer, 8 dio century v2.0 announced since 1 year... we have to decide to buy 'as it is' ans no waiting for plus...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

AlainTH said:


> so Sine player bugs with OT with no answer, 8 dio century v2.0 announced since 1 year... we have to decide to buy 'as it is' ans no waiting for plus...


what hasn't been answered? I'm pretty sure they've acknowledged bugs and gotten a patch out already, with more fixes and updates on the way. 


if you want the intro pricing get it, if you want to wait until the new player is more mature, by all means - but framing it as abandonware is a tad ridiculous.


----------



## Tice

If there's anything I've learned from being part of the software development process, it's that it takes a LOT of time. Consumers expect fixes to things often in completely unrealistic time spans.


----------



## AlainTH

you are pretty sure... i have seen several communications for the team for promotions of the sine player (i continue to think that diffuse a kontakt compatible would be secure for everybody) but never that they heard the problems and are concerned, not a timing or pricing affair ('you can save money so don't complain...', 600$ 800$ is a lot of money in the two cases), just showing a presence... maybe you think i am ridiculous (and you answer at their place...) but it doesn't change this feeling and you are right i will maybe finish by buy it (and be less ridiculous ...).


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Tice said:


> If there's anything I've learned from being part of the software development process, it's that it takes a LOT of time. Consumers expect fixes to things often in completely unrealistic time spans.


ironically I've had next to no time to toy with the software but seems to work without a hitch for me. haven't had a crash since the update using reaper 6.01

but to ne fair, I also haven't loaded like 14+GB of ram in a single instance since then either.


----------



## Tice

I'm not in the same boat yet, since I had to wait with buying this library. I'll be spending more money by the time I can afford to get it, but on the plus side more of the problems will have been fixed.
I'm a lot more bummed out on missing out on the master class by Holkenborg.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

AlainTH said:


> you are pretty sure... i have seen several communications for the team for promotions of the sine player (i continue to think that diffuse a kontakt compatible would be secure for everybody) but never that they heard the problems and are concerned, not a timing or pricing affair ('you can save money so don't complain...', 600$ 800$ is a lot of money in the two cases), just showing a presence... maybe you think i am ridiculous (and you answer at their place...) but it doesn't change this feeling and you are right i will maybe finish by buy it (and be less ridiculous ...).



they might actually be working rather than looking active. Took them a bit to get back to my email for feedback, also no doubt they probably spent some time with family - I was actually astonished we got the first update so rapidly. 

maybe you're new to this kind of stuff, maybe you think OT is some sort of megacorp like McDonald's or something... if previous examples(such as play engine) weren't a realistic baseline, we have the new spitfire player to go off of. 

and SF is a MUCH larger company than OT.


----------



## AlainTH

just a sign of concern would be appreciated ant it take 5 minutes .


----------



## Loïc D

They are finishing Christstollen and Christmas wine and they’ll be right back in a few days 
Indeed, OT is far smaller than SF (not even half size), they need time for fixes.
The library has been released only few weeks ago.
I’m really looking forward to using the purge-per-note future update.

So far, no hassle, only minor bugs (LPX here, which seems to be less prone to bugs).


----------



## OrchestralTools

Happy new year guys!

We know we've been quiet so far this year on VI...we're working on another update for the SINE player, but we also have some really exciting news we've been keeping under wraps for some time now...

Keep your eyes peeled.

Best,

OT


----------



## Raphioli

While OT might have been quiet here,
I've sent a bug report regarding JXL Brass library during the holiday and they got back to me after the holiday and acknowledged the bug and said it will be added to the to-fix list.
So they are actually responsive.


----------



## artomatic

Changed library location to another SSD. Anyone know where I can redirect the library in SINE?


----------



## nas

artomatic said:


> Changed library location to another SSD. Anyone know where I can redirect the library in SINE?



From OT's site:

Press +Collection in the Library View. Choose the folder you just copied and SINE Player will add everything to its Library.


----------



## Eptesicus

OrchestralTools said:


> Happy new year guys!
> 
> We know we've been quiet so far this year on VI...we're working on another update for the SINE player, but we also have some really exciting news we've been keeping under wraps for some time now...
> 
> Keep your eyes peeled.
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT



Have you, or are you close to sorting the freezing when unloading samples yet?


----------



## Eptesicus

Can anyone else try something for me.

Is it just me or is the legato in the horns A6 dodgy? I have just played around with it a bit and the legato transitions sound sort of "cut" or odd in the A6 horns and they lose the room a lot between the transitions.

Something is definitely not right, at least on my end.

Can anyone else confirm? Just compare all the horn ensemble patches.

A4 and A12 legato is wonderful and really smooth. A6 sounds weird!


----------



## Consona

Could someone mock up this?


----------



## I like music

Consona said:


> Could someone mock up this?



 You _are _committed!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Consona said:


> Could someone mock up this?


you might assume we know what that's actually supposed to sound like. I was never a trekky, I assumed that was an acronym for wrath of kahn - but i'd need to be linked a clip to have any context. 

what I imagine seems better suited for something more fluid like SM/infinite brass - but since I've literally never heard the cue I'm just batting in the dark. I bet you could give troel @8Dio Productions Miroslav philharmonic or garritan and he could probably sculpt a convincing phrase out of it XD


----------



## I like music

ProfoundSilence said:


> you might assume we know what that's actually supposed to sound like. I was never a trekky, I assumed that was an acronym for wrath of kahn - but i'd need to be linked a clip to have any context.
> 
> what I imagine seems better suited for something more fluid like SM/infinite brass - but since I've literally never heard the cue I'm just batting in the dark. I bet you could give troel @8Dio Productions Miroslav philharmonic or garritan and he could probably sculpt a convincing phrase out of it XD



DUDE - PUT EVERYTHING DOWN AND PLEASE GO LISTEN TO WRATH OF KAHN, START TO END!!! Thank me later!

Actually I have no idea what kind of music you might be into, but Horner did very well on this one.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I like music said:


> DUDE - PUT EVERYTHING DOWN AND PLEASE GO LISTEN TO WRATH OF KAHN, START TO END!!! Thank me later!
> 
> Actually I have no idea what kind of music you might be into, but Horner did very well on this one.


I like horner, but im not familiar with every que he's ever done. Not even with johnny boy - but given the fact that I was given a .mid file and 3 letters, I just tried to assume it was something pop-related and wrath of kahn was my first guess?

I have very little free time, so I doubt i'd be the best person to mock anything up - but maybe others(like myself) simply don't know what it is in the first place.


----------



## Consona

I like music said:


> You _are _committed!


I just want to hear how does the runs legato sound.  



ProfoundSilence said:


> you might assume we know what that's actually supposed to sound like. I was never a trekky, I assumed that was an acronym for wrath of kahn - but i'd need to be linked a clip to have any context.
> 
> what I imagine seems better suited for something more fluid like SM/infinite brass - but since I've literally never heard the cue I'm just batting in the dark. I bet you could give troel @8Dio Productions Miroslav philharmonic or garritan and he could probably sculpt a convincing phrase out of it XD







I like music said:


> DUDE - PUT EVERYTHING DOWN AND PLEASE GO LISTEN TO WRATH OF KAHN, START TO END!!! Thank me later!
> 
> Actually I have no idea what kind of music you might be into, but Horner did very well on this one.


Yep. The first three Star Trek films scores are fantastic, Goldsmith's The Motion Picture and Horner's Wrath of Khan and Search for Spock.


----------



## I like music

ProfoundSilence said:


> I like horner, but im not familiar with every que he's ever done. Not even with johnny boy - but given the fact that I was given a .mid file and 3 letters, I just tried to assume it was something pop-related and wrath of kahn was my first guess?
> 
> I have very little free time, so I doubt i'd be the best person to mock anything up - but maybe others(like myself) simply don't know what it is in the first place.



Just to be clear, all I was saying was that the Wrath of Kahn score is an absolute delight, so if you do ever find some time, it is worth listening to the whole thing. I actually kind of envy you that you're not totally familiar with this one. What I would give to hear this for the first time again!

Over in the library demos thread (will try to dig it out), a few people have mocked this up with various libraries already (infinite, csb etc). Not sure if you've seen the thread but it has some good comparisons in it. Woodwinds, brass, all sorts. Hopefully someone will get JXL involved in that thread too.


----------



## Oxytoxine

Eptesicus said:


> Can anyone else try something for me.
> 
> Is it just me or is the legato in the horns A6 dodgy? I have just played around with it a bit and the legato transitions sound sort of "cut" or odd in the A6 horns and they lose the room a lot between the transitions.
> 
> Something is definitely not right, at least on my end.
> 
> Can anyone else confirm? Just compare all the horn ensemble patches.
> 
> A4 and A12 legato is wonderful and really smooth. A6 sounds weird!


I have this too.

And basically the same problem you describe on all legato patches when shifting fast through the dynamic layers. Very unnatural and abrupt transitions and "loss of room sound". Makes playing fast lines with fast dynamic changes almost Impossible for me.


----------



## AEF

Oxytoxine said:


> I have this too.
> 
> And basically the same problem you describe on all legato patches when shifting fast through the dynamic layers. Very unnatural and abrupt transitions and "loss of room sound". Makes playing fast lines with fast dynamic changes almost Impossible for me.



happens with Berlin Strings as well. try using only one legato transition type. I usually just use slurred or agile depending on tempo.


----------



## Raphioli

Eptesicus said:


> Can anyone else try something for me.
> 
> Is it just me or is the legato in the horns A6 dodgy? I have just played around with it a bit and the legato transitions sound sort of "cut" or odd in the A6 horns and they lose the room a lot between the transitions.
> 
> Something is definitely not right, at least on my end.
> 
> Can anyone else confirm? Just compare all the horn ensemble patches.
> 
> A4 and A12 legato is wonderful and really smooth. A6 sounds weird!


I'm not sure if we're experiencing the same bug, but theres times when the transition just won't play.
I don't think the transition samples are missing from the patches, because sometimes it does play for the same interval at the same dynamics while other times it doesn't.

I'm not sure whats triggering it, but they said they're going to add it to the bugs-to-fix list.
So hopefully they'll release a fix soon.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

for fast runs, using the poly is pretty important.


----------



## GPlowman

Hi all - I got JXL brass on Christmas day and been playing around with it when I can. SINE player is great overall - but can be 'sensitive' when it's loading samples. I tend to leave it while it's in progress or else it will crash for me. Ok once the RAM counter stops loading. I've been reading the thread with interest and I think I had a very similar idea to what was suggested already - Star Wars. 

I have a mock-up of Scherzo for X-Wings where having originally started this with Cinebrass, I removed CB when I bought JXL, and well, to me it was like night and day of the difference.



These are the a3 mics (a4 for horns). Mics are close, mid, tree, ab for AM merged, but the trumpets I felt sounded better unprocessed. So the same, just the unprocessed mics merged there.

And below is a partial mock-up of the Star Wars main theme.


----------



## Oxytoxine

AEF said:


> happens with Berlin Strings as well. try using only one legato transition type. I usually just use slurred or agile depending on tempo.



Good to know, thanks! Will try


----------



## Consona

GPlowman said:


> Hi all - I got JXL brass on Christmas day and been playing around with it when I can. SINE player is great overall - but can be 'sensitive' when it's loading samples. I tend to leave it while it's in progress or else it will crash for me. Ok once the RAM counter stops loading. I've been reading the thread with interest and I think I had a very similar idea to what was suggested already - Star Wars. I have a quick version of the start of the theme done.
> 
> 
> 
> And also I have a mock-up of Scherzo for X-Wings where having originally started this with Cinebrass, I removed CB when I bought JXL, and well, to me it was like night and day of the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> These are the a3 mics (a4 for horns). Mics are close, mid, tree, ab for AM merged, but the trumpets I felt sounded better unprocessed. So the same, just the unprocessed mics merged there.



I liked the strings.  What library is that?

Where did you get the midi for Scherzo? Can you share it?


----------



## GPlowman

Consona said:


> I liked the strings.  What library is that?
> 
> Where did you get the midi for Scherzo? Can you share it?


What did you think of the brass though? 

Strings are Cinematic Studio Strings. The mock-up is created by myself note by note from the score.


----------



## jamwerks

OrchestralTools said:


> ...but we also have some really exciting news we've been keeping under wraps for some time now...


New Woodwinds???


----------



## ProfoundSilence

GPlowman said:


> Hi all - I got JXL brass on Christmas day and been playing around with it when I can. SINE player is great overall - but can be 'sensitive' when it's loading samples. I tend to leave it while it's in progress or else it will crash for me. Ok once the RAM counter stops loading. I've been reading the thread with interest and I think I had a very similar idea to what was suggested already - Star Wars. I have a quick version of the start of the theme done.
> 
> 
> 
> And also I have a mock-up of Scherzo for X-Wings where having originally started this with Cinebrass, I removed CB when I bought JXL, and well, to me it was like night and day of the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> These are the a3 mics (a4 for horns). Mics are close, mid, tree, ab for AM merged, but the trumpets I felt sounded better unprocessed. So the same, just the unprocessed mics merged there.



scherzo <3333333333


----------



## Consona

GPlowman said:


> What did you think of the brass though?
> 
> Strings are Cinematic Studio Strings. The mock-up is created by myself note by note from the score.


And woodwinds?  

The theme sounds midi-ish at times, but if you told me the Scherzo is a live recording I would believe you.


----------



## GPlowman

Consona said:


> And woodwinds?
> 
> The theme sounds midi-ish at times, but if you told me the Scherzo is a live recording I would believe you.


I have an improved version of the theme but just wanting to finish more of it before I decide to post it on SC, which might be a good while before I get to finishing it. Woods are a combination of MSW Solo winds and runs from old Albion from spitfire edited and layered.


----------



## Eptesicus

Oxytoxine said:


> I have this too.
> 
> And basically the same problem you describe on all legato patches when shifting fast through the dynamic layers. Very unnatural and abrupt transitions and "loss of room sound". Makes playing fast lines with fast dynamic changes almost Impossible for me.



For me there is definitely a difference with the A6 horns compared to the other two.


----------



## Eptesicus

Raphioli said:


> I'm not sure if we're experiencing the same bug, but theres times when the transition just won't play.
> I don't think the transition samples are missing from the patches, because sometimes it does play for the same interval at the same dynamics while other times it doesn't.
> 
> I'm not sure whats triggering it, but they said they're going to add it to the bugs-to-fix list.
> So hopefully they'll release a fix soon.



I think this could be it. It could be that the transition just doesn't play. So you have noticed this in the A6 horns as well?


----------



## Eptesicus

GPlowman said:


> Hi all - I got JXL brass on Christmas day and been playing around with it when I can. SINE player is great overall - but can be 'sensitive' when it's loading samples. I tend to leave it while it's in progress or else it will crash for me. Ok once the RAM counter stops loading. I've been reading the thread with interest and I think I had a very similar idea to what was suggested already - Star Wars. I have a quick version of the start of the theme done.
> 
> 
> 
> And also I have a mock-up of Scherzo for X-Wings where having originally started this with Cinebrass, I removed CB when I bought JXL, and well, to me it was like night and day of the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> These are the a3 mics (a4 for horns). Mics are close, mid, tree, ab for AM merged, but the trumpets I felt sounded better unprocessed. So the same, just the unprocessed mics merged there.





Wasnt that taken with the Main theme track although i think with a bit of tweaking i could be great with this library, but Scherzo sounds brilliant.

i think the main thing that was jarring for me in the main theme was those woodwind runs..they sound very toy box/midi like. Weirdly they sound better in the Scherzo track. Maybe its just a mixing thing.


----------



## Raphioli

Eptesicus said:


> I think this could be it. It could be that the transition just doesn't play. So you have noticed this in the A6 horns as well?


Yes, and have reported it during the holiday.


----------



## GPlowman

Eptesicus said:


> Wasnt that taken with the Main theme track although i think with a bit of tweaking i could be great with this library, but Scherzo sounds brilliant.
> 
> i think the main thing that was jarring for me in the main theme was those woodwind runs..they sound very toy box/midi like. Weirdly they sound better in the Scherzo track. Maybe its just a mixing thing.



Cheers - I find when trying to 'fudge' these runs in the woods, you get away with it at certain tempos, and at other tempos they don't always work. They range from something smooth to staccato like as the tempo dictates the blurring of them - plus they are likely more exposed than the original piece mix.

I certainly listened/spent more time with the brass overall in the main theme than the other elements as that was my main focus. The brass (for me) went from the weakest element to one of the strongest once I swapped them in along with the strings.


----------



## Eptesicus

Raphioli said:


> Yes, and have reported it during the holiday.



Good. Glad im not just going mad! I have reported it to. There is definitly something funky going on.


----------



## novaburst

GPlowman said:


> Hi all - I got JXL brass on Christmas day and been playing around with it when I can. SINE player is great overall - but can be 'sensitive' when it's loading samples. I tend to leave it while it's in progress or else it will crash for me. Ok once the RAM counter stops loading. I've been reading the thread with interest and I think I had a very similar idea to what was suggested already - Star Wars. I have a quick version of the start of the theme done.
> 
> 
> 
> And also I have a mock-up of Scherzo for X-Wings where having originally started this with Cinebrass, I removed CB when I bought JXL, and well, to me it was like night and day of the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> These are the a3 mics (a4 for horns). Mics are close, mid, tree, ab for AM merged, but the trumpets I felt sounded better unprocessed. So the same, just the unprocessed mics merged there.




Incredible skill going on there brass sounded fantastically fat, nice work


----------



## Consona

@GPlowman Feel free to mock-up this.


----------



## GPlowman

novaburst said:


> Incredible skill going on there brass sounded fantastically fat, nice work


Thanks, while some care and time is needed for it to sound 'right' - the orchestration is what makes it.



Consona said:


> @GPlowman Feel free to mock-up this.



Downloaded, but zero promises! That looks like it'd take a loooong time just to do a few bars and try and get results. It'd be fun to try all the same!


----------



## jason.d

GPlowman said:


> What did you think of the brass though?
> 
> Strings are Cinematic Studio Strings. The mock-up is created by myself note by note from the score.



Besides the timing issues on the main Star Wars theme, I think the tone is fantastic! It sounds really good to me.


----------



## Consona

GPlowman said:


> Downloaded, but zero promises! That looks like it'd take a loooong time just to do a few bars and try and get results. It'd be fun to try all the same!


Maybe pick just some interesting 20 seconds from it. Like those brass runs moments.


So far it sounds like a3 sections is what I'm gonna get. Is the programming in all section sizes the same or are there some differences? Since I think a6 would be an overkill for more classical approach. Star Wars has 6 horns and 4 trumpets, so I think I will take a6 horns instead of a3.


----------



## jcrosby

jamwerks said:


> New Woodwinds???


Hoping it's that Sine versions of other libraries are on their way... (MA, BO, BOI, Time, etc...)

Or, perhaps with a little luck we'll hear that a _JXLS_ is in the works??? (Seems pretty much impossible not to follow up JXLB with a companion string library...) Curious either way for sure...


----------



## GPlowman

Consona said:


> Maybe pick just some interesting 20 seconds from it. Like those brass runs moments.
> 
> 
> So far it sounds like a3 sections is what I'm gonna get. Is the programming in all section sizes the same or are there some differences? Since I think a6 would be an overkill for more classical approach. Star Wars has 6 horns and 4 trumpets, so I think I will take a6 horns instead of a3.


Was listening to the Star Trek piece and seeing what could be done, but time wise not possible yet.

I reckon you'll need the a4 horns, because a6 is good for a full blown single melody line, but when as so often happens you want to use as few horns together as possible to play split parts and chords. I plan to double the top line with the solo horn so I have 5 horns playing - but again in split parts it ends up you have 12 horns and more even when breaking into a chord. Typical ensemble issue. 

With a bit of velocity reduction on the lower notes and giving the top note more presence, it can mask this effect somewhat.

The programming appears to be identical across all. You can literately copy/paste lines and only the range would be adjusted if needed, and keyswitching is all the same.


----------



## GPlowman

jason.d said:


> Besides the timing issues on the main Star Wars theme, I think the tone is fantastic! It sounds really good to me.


Cheers, yes the tone is great. The theme mock up is a WIP but still good to get that feedback on it. I've decided too, to disable the fff layers on all for the main theme, because it doesn't reach fff in the score. 

Jury is out but it seems to 'tame' it all, so despite my attempt to balance and not go into the fff layer when doing the dynamics, removing it ensures this. I would also say though that one mans ff might be anothers fff, or vice versa. It's important for me to remember that I may need or want real bite on certain notes, and that might not come through until it's hitting the fff layer. In a mixing environment, they'd simply lower the volume a little, but retain the timbre. Will see....

Lots of possibilities!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

GPlowman said:


> Was listening to the Star Trek piece and seeing what could be done, but time wise not possible yet.
> 
> I reckon you'll need the a4 horns, because a6 is good for a full blown single melody line, but when as so often happens you want to use as few horns together as possible to play split parts and chords. I plan to double the top line with the solo horn so I have 5 horns playing - but again in split parts it ends up you have 12 horns and more even when breaking into a chord. Typical ensemble issue.
> 
> With a bit of velocity reduction on the lower notes and giving the top note more presence, it can mask this effect somewhat.
> 
> The programming appears to be identical across all. You can literately copy/paste lines and only the range would be adjusted if needed, and keyswitching is all the same.




for runs i'd actually just make an articulation - the sustain + runs legato poly xfaded with staccatissimo. then find the right balance between connectivity + separation.

just bear in mind, I experienced a bug that made it so on xfade I had silence, until I swapped it to switch and then back to xfade. also keep in mind that that having duplicade of the same articulation doesn't cost any extra ram! I realized I could layer articulations this way by putting extra versions with the same keyswitch.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jcrosby said:


> Hoping it's that Sine versions of other libraries are on their way... (MA, BO, BOI, Time, etc...)



inspire within sine would be the strangest decision... it's already low on ram! I hope it's DEAD last lmao. 

that said, I'd kill for the berlin series then the arks - in that order. I'm low-key hoping they'll "find" extra microphones from the berlin WW expansion so that they use a set similar to the rest of the OT lineup. When they updated berlin WW to revive the old instruments that made the cut magically had the other microphones! lol


----------



## Eptesicus

jcrosby said:


> Hoping it's that Sine versions of other libraries are on their way... (MA, BO, BOI, Time, etc...)
> 
> Or, perhaps with a little luck we'll hear that a _JXLS_ is in the works??? (Seems pretty much impossible not to follow up JXLB with a companion string library...) Curious either way for sure...



I doubt it's the SINE version of libraries. We already know that is coming. They said it was something they have been keeping under wraps. It could junkie xl strings as you say. Announcement this month, with a release end of year like the brass.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Eptesicus said:


> I doubt it's the SINE version of libraries. We already know that is coming. They said it was something they have been keeping under wraps. It could junkie xl strings as you say. Announcement this month, with a release end of year like the brass.



I think it should be 2 years, considering it took them this long to get JXL brass. 2 years of getting the old libraries into the player with "sales" and 2-3 new smaller releases in the new engine + aiming for a 2021 winter release of JXL strings seems wayyyy more feasible. 

Keep in mind, it's not like it's just OT making a library, it requires a lot of time, energy, and focus from a big bucks AAA Hollywood composer. OT would quickly devolve their new line into the "Orchestral Tools with the faint odor of JXL from when he visited and didn't wash his hands series". Granted JXL wouldn't have to be AS involved as the first library once they got into the swing of things - but that's something to consider.


----------



## Eptesicus

ProfoundSilence said:


> I think it should be 2 years, considering it took them this long to get JXL brass. 2 years of getting the old libraries into the player with "sales" and 2-3 new smaller releases in the new engine + aiming for a 2021 winter release of JXL strings seems wayyyy more feasible.
> 
> Keep in mind, it's not like it's just OT making a library, it requires a lot of time, energy, and focus from a big bucks AAA Hollywood composer. OT would quickly devolve their new line into the "Orchestral Tools with the faint odor of JXL from when he visited and didn't wash his hands series". Granted JXL wouldn't have to be AS involved as the first library once they got into the swing of things - but that's something to consider.



Oh i agree. I was just saying out of the two things the other guy said, it is more likely to be JXL strings as they havent previously said anything about that.

I would prefer it if they took this year to really get SINE updated and completely stable and JXL Brass fixed and refined first.


----------



## AlainTH

Eptesicus said:


> I would prefer it if they took this year to really get SINE updated and completely stable and JXL Brass fixed and refined first.


me too!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Eptesicus said:


> Oh i agree. I was just saying out of the two things the other guy said, it is more likely to be JXL strings as they havent previously said anything about that.
> 
> I would prefer it if they took this year to really get SINE updated and completely stable and JXL Brass fixed and refined first.


well based on the email I received with some of my feedback, they atleast tentatively plan on adding everything I want it to do that it doesnt. Won't put them on the spot and post that here,(if they want to make more official promises for features they can) so they've got plenty of work ahead of them.


----------



## mscp

After a few weeks on JXL/OT Brass, I wonder if JXL is as detailed and rich in sound as OT Brass is.


----------



## Eptesicus

Phil81 said:


> After a few weeks on JXL/OT Brass, I wonder if JXL is as detailed and rich in sound as OT Brass is.



It certainly has a better dynamic range, and the low brass is probably the best low brass available. It is monstrous.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Phil81 said:


> After a few weeks on JXL/OT Brass, I wonder if JXL is as detailed and rich in sound as OT Brass is.


less articulations, more dynamic layers. sometimes more sometimes less round robins. That's if by "OT Brass" you actually mean berlin brass


----------



## mscp

ProfoundSilence said:


> less articulations, more dynamic layers. sometimes more sometimes less round robins. That's if by "OT Brass" you actually mean berlin brass



Right. I meant Berlin Brass.

I heard a few demos with Berlin Brass in and I liked the depth and clarity of the instruments compared to, let's say, Cinematic Studio Brass. I currently use Cinebrass and Spitfire Studio Brass but I find some instruments in SStB a bit anorexic and "phasey". I'm looking for lush but at the same time super clear and not smeared.


----------



## GPlowman

Last update as I'm a little burned out - couldn't put it on SC due to it being tagged as copyright.

Star Wars Main theme with only JXL Brass. fff layer is OFF.


----------



## Zeff

I'm absolutely loving the sound of the JXL Brass, especially just how big this library can become!

I just haven't been able to play around a lot; for I had to build a new PC in December and now that I finally have my PC fully functioning the SINE Player (v1.0.1) has been causing FL Studio (latest version 20.6) to crash a lot of times.

The crashes usually happen when switching tabs or loading articulations while there is some kind of load on the CPU (e.g. while a song is playing or when I hold down an awesome JXL Brass note).

I've tried to keep track of potential bugs or rather possible improvements for both the SINE player and the JXL Brass Library. Don't get me wrong, I'm really enjoying and appreciating this addition to my sample library, it's just unfortunate that it's currently not compatible with my own setup.

_I'm not sure where to post these types of suggestions, is there any place where improvements/bugs could be reported? @OrchestralTools @Real JXL _

Bugs:

As described above, the player lets FL Studio sometimes crash when the CPU is not idle.
I made a test .otsave in the standalone SINE Player and when I tried to import it in the plugin version (again in FL Studio) it made the whole program crash.
On second thought, importing an .otsave makes the program crash even if I made it through the plugin version of SINE. So importing just doesn't work (inside the FL Studio environment).
Sometimes notes hang, they usually occur when I hold a note and do something inside the SINE Player, like re-ordering the articulation list. I can't make it stop unless I press the >!< button.
Here are a couple of pointer that could perhaps improve the product (in no particular order):

Distinguishing the SINE player functionality from the store/online/buying side of the player. Perhaps introduce a VST that works in offline-mode and is kinda a bare-bone version of the current plugin (or change the plugin altogether and only keep the online side of things in the stand-alone app). This might make it easier to unit-test and offers better pin-pointing to why certain bugs occur.
The online side seems embedded (like a webpage is being loaded), though I'm not sure if that's the case. Is there a way to make the UI part of the player itself and let the dynamic data (available libraries, mic positions, etc) be fetched through an API? I think this could greatly improve the speed of the plugin. Clicking on the My Licenses or Store button feels a bit sluggish at the moment.
Letting users choose where these articulations/mic-positions are stored. I'm not sure if I might be wrong about this but I could only choose the Drive to where I wanted it to be installed and not an exact path. This results in a folder that's placed in the root. This is not too big of a deal (at least for me), but it does ruin a bit of my folder hierarchy I currently have on my system.
Making the clickable items in the player more apparent. This is just a small thing but making the mouse change into the 'hand cursor' and letting the buttons have a hover color will, in my opinion, increase the user-friendliness of the player. The first time I ran the player, I wasn't sure what I could click on. But like I said, this is a minor issue.
Previewing mic positions? Currently I have to download a mic position in order to actually hear what I'm working with, this might be a cool feature that most would love to see!
Making FL Studio's velocity correlate with the loudness of a note perhaps? I'm not sure how this would play out with the 'Expression' modulator.

As for the JXL Brass sounds...I like it, I really do. This list is just being nit-picky and looking for possible improvements!

F#4 and G4 (at loudest Dynamics, Sustains + LEG) of the Trombones a3 have a noise in the background; like the moving of a chair.
Moving Cimbassi a3 (loudest dynamics, Sustains + LEG) C3, C#3, D3, D#3, E3 and up, you can clearly hear the volume get way louder, this is probably because of how difficult it is to play at the lower registers? Not certain if this should be seen as something to be fixed or leave it for authenticity!
For now, that's all!


Thank you for making this product, I'm glad I went with my gut feelings on this one!
Zeff


----------



## Tvliesin

Has there been any word on the masterclass?


----------



## cjbrett22

Tvliesin said:


> Has there been any word on the masterclass?


I was wondering the same thing.


----------



## jononotbono

Finally got all of JXLB loaded in VEPro. Such is life it's taken this long before I can properly play with it but I'm very excited. Listening to every art as I loaded them just made me love the sound of this library. Now I just need some time to actually write some music with it this week! And yes, any news on the Masterclass? Definitely can't wait for that!


----------



## AlainTH

Zeff said:


> Bugs:
> 
> As described above, the player lets FL Studio sometimes crash when the CPU is not idle.
> I made a test .otsave in the standalone SINE Player and when I tried to import it in the plugin version (again in FL Studio) it made the whole program crash.
> On second thought, importing an .otsave makes the program crash even if I made it through the plugin version of SINE. So importing just doesn't work (inside the FL Studio environment).
> Sometimes notes hang, they usually occur when I hold a note and do something inside the SINE Player, like re-ordering the articulation list. I can't make it stop unless I press the >!< button.


it seems resolve that is more important and respectful for those who give money than announce new product to sell in future... anyway i think more and more to buy the library...


----------



## Henning

Just in case you missed it: there's a new demo by Benny for JXL:


----------



## Loïc D

AlainTH said:


> it seems resolve that is more important and respectful for those who give money than announce new product to sell in future... anyway i think more and more to buy the library...


Same behaviour here !

EDIT : was replying to the post mentioning that OT import crashes the host program.


----------



## Loïc D

Henning said:


> Just in case you missed it: there's a new demo by Benny for JXL:



Fantastic. Definitely my favorite demo composer...


----------



## AlainTH

a kontakt version would be so simple...the demo is in this format, just to say they can...


----------



## babylonwaves

AlainTH said:


> a kontakt version would be so simple...the demo is in this format, just to say they can...



@AlainTH the "demo"?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

babylonwaves said:


> @AlainTH the "demo"?


potentially test patches or proof of concepts were floating around torrent sites. OT advised they were NOT part of the library or use any samples of the library. 

not sure if they even confirmed it was actually made by them


----------



## babylonwaves

🤦‍♂️


----------



## ProfoundSilence

hmm, maybe wouldn't post that. 1.) orchestral tools never released a freebie or anything 2.) downloading from a "site" is not a legal distribution of any kind for orchestral tools. 

at any rate, I would advise against visiting whatever websites you found that on - and in my experience piracy is not a topic that makes you friends here


----------



## Raphioli

If you believed the demo files were real, I wonder why you would download it anyways.

If I believed it was real, I would have assumed those were leaked illegally, unless OT posted it on their official website themselves.
So I wouldn't have touched it.


----------



## Si_Withenshaw

Saying that they should release a Kontakt version because the 'demo' version is in Kontakt, is probably not a great argument, especially when part of the motivation for the new player is probably to combat piracy


----------



## Loïc D

OMG ! @AlainTH It would be wise to remove this screencap ASAP and any reference to it.

"Leaked" products are far from welcome here. 
It's on the brink to reputation suicide with so many professional composers here and companies working hard to develop & promote their products.

And anyway, since they WON'T do a Kontakt release, what's the point ?

I'd like to add to the benefit of SINE that it seems far less resource-hungry that the "equivalent" Kontakt Capsule engine is (and there's not even yet the purge-per-note function).


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I feel like there's definitely a percentage of users who say stuff like if it's not on kontakt I'm not buying it or actually saying if it's not on kontact I cant pirate it

But I am doing my best not to turn this thread into a piracy rant.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Si_Withenshaw said:


> Saying that they should release a Kontakt version because the 'demo' version is in Kontakt, is probably not a great argument, especially when part of the motivation for the new player is probably to combat piracy


You should release a version that makes it easy for me to download the pirated version from the website that I downloaded a leaked version

I mean I'm not going to put words in the guy's mouth, but it's painfully obvious


----------



## AlainTH

Alas, the piracy is of our world today and if it exist its better to speak of... and i suppose sine will be pirated like all the softwares... i really thought it was a demo (That could be on OT site before the launch of final version of december) like 8dio make... i just tried free try of century brass (in fact the "free" is bought 4 $). it is a good thing to download just a part of library. and in this case the comparison make me decide to buy junkie xl... the only bad point is the report of bugs who make daw crashes, thing which never arrive with kontakt libraries.


----------



## Raphioli

ProfoundSilence said:


> I feel like there's definitely a percentage of users who say stuff like if it's not on kontakt I'm not buying it or actually saying if it's not on kontact I cant pirate it
> 
> But I am doing my best not to turn this thread into a piracy rant.



Seeing that there are people who download a demo from a "site", even while assuming it is real, makes me feel that OT made the right move on going with their own player. (I'm aware that they also had other things in mind as well of course, such as unique features like mic merge)


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Raphioli said:


> Seeing that there are people who download a demo from a "site", even while assuming it is real, makes me feel that OT made the right move on going with their own player. (I'm aware that they also had other things in mind as well of course, such as unique features like mic merge)



oh I think the OT player was born out of a need.


And I certainly don't think all of the people refusing to buy products based on using a proprietary piece of software are all Pirates, I know I personally wouldn't want products from certain companies simply because they don't like their engine

So far there hasn't been a Spitfire library that I've wanted on the new player so I don't have an opinion of theirs yet


----------



## Craig Sharmat

Hey guys had to delete the pirate stuff even if unintentional.


----------



## jononotbono

ProfoundSilence said:


> so I don't have an opinion of theirs yet



Are you admitting that you aren't going to have an opinion on something unless you have actual experience using that something? Wow. Thank you. The shock is real! What a rare treat.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jononotbono said:


> Are you admitting that you aren't going to have an opinion on something unless you have actual experience using that something? Wow. Thank you. The shock is real! What a rare treat.


Don't tell anyone. 

I do have opinions on stuff I don't own, as long as there is ample material and it's something I can support by linking. Most of the opinions I'm willing to vocalize about things I don't own have nothing to do with working with the library, but rather sonic or included articulations.


----------



## tabulius

I've been building a modular template for Studio One and at least during composing this piece and building the template I had zero crashes and no problems with Sine. I hope OT fixes the poly switch recall bug soon. Nevertheless JXL brass is great for this type of epic music! All the brass is JXL.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey guys,

Thank you so much for your reaction to the pirate comment. We put so much work into our products, years and years of effort to make sure everything is the best quality so people are inspired when composing. Thanks so much for supporting that. Trying to balance quality and keep the price as low as we can is something we really keep in mind and we want everyone to be able to access the best sounding libraries.

So...for that reason, we are really, really excited to announce this.

Please welcome Layers—a free orchestral instrument!



Layers is a free orchestral instrument that works exclusively with SINE, and an easy way to add orchestral sounds to your compositions and productions. Draw from the finest recordings of strings, woodwinds, and brass. Generate full chords with one-touch simplicity. And seamlessly blend layers of tonal colors and dynamics with your MIDI controller.

Find out more about Layers and download for free at http://www.orchestraltools.com/store/collections/45 (www.orchestraltools.com/store/collections/45)

Download SINE free here: http://www.getsine.com (www.getsine.com)

We are so excited to hear your thoughts on this.
Thanks again for all your support.

Best,

OT Team


----------



## Manuel Stumpf

OrchestralTools said:


> Please welcome Layers—a free orchestral instrument!


Yay.


----------



## brenneisen

getting an 504 cloudfront error, probably server overload?


----------



## Eptesicus

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Thank you so much for your reaction to the pirate comment. We put so much work into our products, years and years of effort to make sure everything is the best quality so people are inspired when composing. Thanks so much for supporting that. Trying to balance quality and keep the price as low as we can is something we really keep in mind and we want everyone to be able to access the best sounding libraries.
> 
> So...for that reason, we are really, really excited to announce this.
> 
> Please welcome Layers—a free orchestral instrument!
> 
> 
> 
> Layers is a free orchestral instrument that works exclusively with SINE, and an easy way to add orchestral sounds to your compositions and productions. Draw from the finest recordings of strings, woodwinds, and brass. Generate full chords with one-touch simplicity. And seamlessly blend layers of tonal colors and dynamics with your MIDI controller.
> 
> Find out more about Layers and download for free at http://www.orchestraltools.com/store/collections/45 (www.orchestraltools.com/store/collections/45)
> 
> Download SINE free here: http://www.getsine.com (www.getsine.com)
> 
> We are so excited to hear your thoughts on this.
> Thanks again for all your support.
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT Team




Have you got any updates on when the crashing/freezing will be fixed?

SINE is the most unstable plug in i have ever used.

From memory, I have never once had a Kontakt crash on my current build (ie not one crash in a few years). I also cant remember the last time Cubase crashed even when using a host of different plugins.

SINE crashes everytime i use it without fail. It even does it with LAYERS as well (just literally fired it up, cleared the articulation list and bam, it freezes).


----------



## Consona

So, any runs legato demos?


----------



## OrchestralTools

brenneisen said:


> getting an 504 cloudfront error, probably server overload?



Hey brenneisen*,*

Thanks for letting us know. 
We're aware, just hang in there as we're trying to solve ASAP. 
We'll keep you posted about it.

Best,

OT


----------



## artomatic

SINE is having problems with VEP 7. Upon launching Pro Tools, when VEP is loading the VIs, Pro Tools and VEP 7 freezes when it tries to load JXL Brass instances. All the other Kontakt instances load fine.
I'm on SINE 1.0.1, Mac Pro.
Anyone having this problem?


----------



## 5Lives

I too have noticed SINE has a tendency to crash Cubase 10.5 on my Mac. Makes using JXL like walking on ice. I try to freeze the track as soon as I have the part recorded. This is a brand new iMac running Catalina.


----------



## Zeff

AlainTH said:


> it seems resolve that is more important and respectful for those who give money than announce new product to sell in future... anyway i think more and more to buy the library...



You should! It's really amazing !


----------



## AlainTH

as it is 599 euros vat (so 720 euros) for the all instruments library (wich is a lot of money in one shot), i think i could buy instruments one by one on several months. i hesitate...
in all cases i go to install sine and layers, to see how it works with cubase / win10.


----------



## GPlowman

5Lives said:


> I too have noticed SINE has a tendency to crash Cubase 10.5 on my Mac. Makes using JXL like walking on ice. I try to freeze the track as soon as I have the part recorded. This is a brand new iMac running Catalina.



Reasons for crashing might vary by DAW, but I found that I need to do the following to stop it crashing:


Leave it alone while it is loading instruments into RAM, no clicking on it.
Absolutely NO playing back any samples while it's loading.
No jumping around tabs - stay out the license browser tab.
Get everything set up front if possible, turning off a dynamic layer, selecting different instruments etc, all before you dive in and start playing.
I noted all the keyswitches (known them by heart anyway now) and CLOSED the SINE instance. I found when it is not visible, it doesn't crash.
If you have a SINE instance open before shutting down your project, close the SINE instance. I get crashes simply closing the project while SINE is open.

I use one singular instance of SINE with all my brass loaded (it's how I prefer it). It's easier to adjust the instruments without hopping instances, and I felt that if I had multiple SINE instances, am I multiplying the possibility for crashing? I don't know - but I don't work that way anyway, not even with Kontakt. I fill kontakt instances with instruments.


----------



## Eptesicus

GPlowman said:


> Reasons for crashing might vary by DAW, but I found that I need to do the following to stop it crashing:
> 
> 
> Leave it alone while it is loading instruments into RAM, no clicking on it.
> Absolutely NO playing back any samples while it's loading.
> No jumping around tabs - stay out the license browser tab.
> Get everything set up front if possible, turning off a dynamic layer, selecting different instruments etc, all before you dive in and start playing.
> I noted all the keyswitches (known them by heart anyway now) and CLOSED the SINE instance. I found when it is not visible, it doesn't crash.
> If you have a SINE instance open before shutting down your project, close the SINE instance. I get crashes simply closing the project while SINE is open.
> 
> I use one singular instance of SINE with all my brass loaded (it's how I prefer it). It's easier to adjust the instruments without hopping instances, and I felt that if I had multiple SINE instances, am I multiplying the possibility for crashing? I don't know - but I don't work that way anyway, not even with Kontakt. I fill kontakt instances with instruments.



The thing that seems to trigger the freezing the most for me is unloading an articulation list (occasionally it will freeze on loading as well), and like you, when closing the sequencer (in my case Cubase). The closing of the sequencer thing would further highlight that it is an issue with unloading the samples.

Thank you for you tips, but we shouldnt have to tread around the software on tip toes like that. It should just work. I dont think Kontakt has every crashed on me during the last few years!

I really like JXL brass, but if they cannot make the player stable ...well then we have a problem. This is supposed to be a professional tool, and it is quite obvious that a massive amount of the userbase is experience freezing/crashing on a pretty regular basis. I appreciate that it is new software so i am prepared to wait a reasonable amount of time for a fix, but if it isn't sorted by the next update i'm going to be very annoyed.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Eptesicus said:


> I appreciate that it is new software so i am prepared to wait a reasonable amount of time for a fix, but if it isn't sorted by the next update i'm going to be very annoyed.



"next update" is a nice thought, which flies directly in the face of software in general - launch or not your next operating system update can break everything LOL. 

triple A games are developed far longer and for far more resources and still have gamebreaking stability issues at launch. I don't treat the software like an atomic bomb, like plowman, but any large kontakt multi(especially when lots of scripting is involved) takes a long time to load, and is far more unstable, and that's the "leading" software that's been around the block. I just had an issue where for no reason kontakt is outputting in mono, so I have to save the multi's I made in them, make a new instance, and then load them one by one. Same DAW, same kontakt version, same exact instrument multi. 



Eptesicus said:


> i am prepared to wait a reasonable amount of time for a fix





Eptesicus said:


> if it isn't sorted by the next update i'm going to be very annoyed.



take a moment to think about what developing software is ACTUALLY like. JXL brass is over 600 gb of data that's compressed - that this software has to be able to access thousands of files in a splitsecond in real time, contorted and weaved into each other. They have a small team, and I can only guess between 10-20 different machines to test the software on. Maybe they send out another 20 or so betas? even that number seems to be a stretch... so at most you're talking about 50 machines to test the software on, which is in no way going to even encounter the same problems of thousands of others completely different machines. Can't fix problems you don't experience, because you don't even know they exist. 

now they have people to actually go out and break it, so they have *some* data to work with - especially with the release of layers(which admittedly I always assumed they'd release first to get some of this out of the way before JXL, but I can see realistic business decisions on both options)

I suggest you consider exactly what "reasonable amount of time" means. Reasonable amount of time to fix stability issues while implementing features the player was intended to have AND releasing more products on it - is a lot different than "Reasonable amount of time before I get impatient that I have to baby it".

you mention many users are having issues, and you'll also see the users who "solve" this issue tend to follow the pattern of being patient and not rushing the software and have less(or next to 0) issues. I suggest you adopt that kind of patience, as setting the instruments up doesnt take that long - and once it's all set up i've never had a crash just arming the track or from playback.


----------



## Eptesicus

ProfoundSilence said:


> "next update" is a nice thought, which flies directly in the face of software in general - launch or not your next operating system update can break everything LOL.
> 
> triple A games are developed far longer and for far more resources and still have gamebreaking stability issues at launch. I don't treat the software like an atomic bomb, like plowman, but any large kontakt multi(especially when lots of scripting is involved) takes a long time to load, and is far more unstable, and that's the "leading" software that's been around the block. I just had an issue where for no reason kontakt is outputting in mono, so I have to save the multi's I made in them, make a new instance, and then load them one by one. Same DAW, same kontakt version, same exact instrument multi.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> take a moment to think about what developing software is ACTUALLY like. JXL brass is over 600 gb of data that's compressed - that this software has to be able to access thousands of files in a splitsecond in real time, contorted and weaved into each other. They have a small team, and I can only guess between 10-20 different machines to test the software on. Maybe they send out another 20 or so betas? even that number seems to be a stretch... so at most you're talking about 50 machines to test the software on, which is in no way going to even encounter the same problems of thousands of others completely different machines. Can't fix problems you don't experience, because you don't even know they exist.
> 
> now they have people to actually go out and break it, so they have *some* data to work with - especially with the release of layers(which admittedly I always assumed they'd release first to get some of this out of the way before JXL, but I can see realistic business decisions on both options)
> 
> I suggest you consider exactly what "reasonable amount of time" means. Reasonable amount of time to fix stability issues while implementing features the player was intended to have AND releasing more products on it - is a lot different than "Reasonable amount of time before I get impatient that I have to baby it".
> 
> you mention many users are having issues, and you'll also see the users who "solve" this issue tend to follow the pattern of being patient and not rushing the software and have less(or next to 0) issues. I suggest you adopt that kind of patience, as setting the instruments up doesnt take that long - and once it's all set up i've never had a crash just arming the track or from playback.



Lol?

What on earth is all this patronising rubbush? Do you work for OT or something? Why are you so defensive about it? I suggest you stop being so forgiving of people who sell products with major issues.

I appreciate developing software is hard, but the SINE player clearly has big stability issues.

The main issue is it crashing when clearing the articulation list or when closing a project, and no level of patience can solve that!

With the amount of reported freezing issues, there is no way it wouldn't have come up in proper testing.




ProfoundSilence said:


> I suggest you consider exactly what "reasonable amount of time" means. Reasonable amount of time to fix stability issues while implementing features the player was intended to have AND releasing more products on it - is a lot different than "Reasonable amount of time before I get impatient that I have to baby it".



I suggest you stop being so forgiving of developers who sell products with major issues and also suggest you stop being so patronising towards people who have spent hundreds of pounds on a bit of software that freezes every time they try to use it.

Maybe direct this misguided animosity towards someone other than a customer who has spent a lot of money on a product that isn't working properly .


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Eptesicus said:


> I appreciate developing software is hard, but the SINE player clearly has big stability issues.
> 
> The main issue is it crashing when clearing the articulation list or when closing a project, and no level of patience can solve that!


Your appreciation doesn't seem to extend past saying you appreciate it followed by completely disregarding the reality of it. 

Case in point, I've never had an issue clearing the articulation list, OR closing a project. Maybe this is attributed to not clicking around too fast, and letting everything load before I do it. Not saying this is the cause of it, simply that I've never experienced it, which was precisely the point I made about realistic expectations for a newborn piece of sampling software. 

I don't work for orchestral tools, Ive never received anything for free or reduced price from them. My avatar is actually poking a bit of fun at their logo change, prior to that it was a baby alligator - because I'm a #floridaman. The elongated fader silhouettes combined with the white and orange color palette really made me think of corndogs, so I made this. 

I've been one of the few who were actually positive about the spitfire player before it was even released, despite not seeing any products that I actually want on it yet. Although ironically I originally was interested in BBCSO and stated multiple times that I'd probably not buy JXL brass, but was excited about sine player. 

that was until I heard both XD


----------



## Drundfunk

ProfoundSilence said:


> I don't work for orchestral tools, Ive never received anything for free or reduced price from them. My avatar is actually poking a bit of fun at their logo change, prior to that it was a baby alligator - because I'm a #floridaman. The elongated fader silhouettes combined with the white and orange color palette really made me think of corndogs, so I made this.


You are that infamous floridaman? *gasps in appreciation*


----------



## Eptesicus

ProfoundSilence said:


> Your appreciation doesn't seem to extend past saying you appreciate it followed by completely disregarding the reality of it.



The reality of it is that it quite obviously has widespread freezing/stability issues, and it should not.

If it wasn't ready to be released, then they shouldn't have released it. They did not say it was still a beta or that we are the testers. This was a finished and released product.

I appreciate that there will be bugs, as i have said, but the freezing is more than just a "bug". It is obviously a widespread issue that should not be there. Unfortunately it is still there, even a month after release. Also, forgive me for being skeptical as to the amount of testing this was put through, but do you really think that if they had enough time to test it properly that the initial keyswitch bug wouldnt have been noticed? That to me, was a bit of an alarm bell as to quite how well it had been tested. That bug was the same for everyone and how they had not picked that up i do not know! It should have been immediately obvious.

I have a very different take on all of this compared with you. As a customer, we are the ones parting with our cash and (especially in the case of JXL Brass as it was coming with the new player) have to put a lot of faith in developers that they will release a polished and working product. I have had many experiences in the VI world where bugs/issues/dodgy samples NEVER get fixed, in spite of promises, so you will have to forgive me for not being massively positive about it all. Sometimes it doesn't bother me too much, especially if the product was inexpensive to start with. This is different though. This is one of the most expensive brass libraries (if not the most, alongside Berlin Brass maybe?) on the market and the user experience should reflect that.

These are not cheap things to buy and you should demand better and you should demand finished, polished and working products.


----------



## GPlowman

The SINE player has issues that some people will need to use workarounds for the moment to avoid crashes if they intend to use it. My only experience with SINE is in using JXL Brass, so perhaps this combination is a problem.

Perhaps the type of drive the samples are on are a problem, perhaps the speed of the drive. Perhaps the path you choose to save is...so many factors.

As a professional software tester myself, I am surprised the issues are so widespread. It seems that general usage beta testing would have uncovered some of these issues quite readily. 
With all the different DAWs and tools out there, there could be a number of incompatible combinations - so testing all of them is not feasible. But one of the leading DAWs, Cubase, has issues as well - so again it is surprising that some of these issues were not encountered in testing.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Eptesicus said:


> The reality of it is that it quite obviously has widespread freezing/stability issues, and it should not.
> 
> If it wasn't ready to be released, then they shouldn't have released it. They did not say it was still a beta or that we are the testers. This was a finished and released product.
> 
> I appreciate that there will be bugs, as i have said, but the freezing is more than just a "bug". It is obviously a widespread issue that should not be there. Unfortunately it is still there, even a month after release. Also, forgive me for being skeptical as to the amount of testing this was put through, but do you really think that if they had enough time to test it properly that the initial keyswitch bug wouldnt have been noticed? That to me, was a bit of an alarm bell as to quite how well it had been tested. That bug was the same for everyone and how they had not picked that up i do not know! It should have been immediately obvious.



here is why I have a different take on it than you, from that quote, aside from the word "keyswitch" - I could copy paste this quote into the comment section or review tab of most of the games that are released these days and not a single person would bat an eye. 

Infact, I watched countless MMORPGS alone over the last 2 decades launch, and crumble the first month due to bugs and everyone being outraged about bugs. I suppose I simply got older and more patient, also worked on games with friends when I was younger(although I haven't touched a scripting language in over 2 decades) so I have a perspective that is not only sympathetic towards developers, but also atleast have an idea of how ridiculous a task it is to get everything working correctly and smoothly at the launch of anything even remotely complicated. Also watched GM midi turn into fully sampled and mostly convincing virtual instruments that are now vastly more affordable than I'd ever have imagined 18 years ago when I picked up the guitar and thought it was the only kind of music I could afford to play around making. 

We might simply have radically different experiences leading up to this point, all I'm suggesting is that the people who seem to have the least problems all seem to be approaching the software with kids gloves.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

GPlowman said:


> The SINE player has issues that some people will need to use workarounds for the moment to avoid crashes if they intend to use it. My only experience with SINE is in using JXL Brass, so perhaps this combination is a problem.
> 
> Perhaps the type of drive the samples are on are a problem, perhaps the speed of the drive. Perhaps the path you choose to save is...so many factors.
> 
> As a professional software tester myself, I am surprised the issues are so widespread. It seems that general usage beta testing would have uncovered some of these issues quite readily.
> With all the different DAWs and tools out there, there could be a number of incompatible combinations - so testing all of them is not feasible. But one of the leading DAWs, Cubase, has issues as well - so again it is surprising that some of these issues were not encountered in testing.




the weirder thing is that seems like OT mostly swears by cubase XD, although hendrik still uses track per articulation, like a wild animal. 

I had the opposite experience from you in regards to loading up an instance... I found the more instruments per instance the less stable. I originally did that to use the mic remote feature and turn nearly all the microphones on at once - which is a pretty bold move haha


----------



## Eptesicus

ProfoundSilence said:


> here is why I have a different take on it than you, from that quote, aside from the word "keyswitch" - I could copy paste this quote into the comment section or review tab of most of the games that are released these days and not a single person would bat an eye.
> 
> Infact, I watched countless MMORPGS alone over the last 2 decades launch, and crumble the first month due to bugs and everyone being outraged about bugs. I suppose I simply got older and more patient, also worked on games with friends when I was younger(although I haven't touched a scripting language in over 2 decades) so I have a perspective that is not only sympathetic towards developers, but also atleast have an idea of how ridiculous a task it is to get everything working correctly and smoothly at the launch of anything even remotely complicated. Also watched GM midi turn into fully sampled and mostly convincing virtual instruments that are now vastly more affordable than I'd ever have imagined 18 years ago when I picked up the guitar and thought it was the only kind of music I could afford to play around making.
> 
> We might simply have radically different experiences leading up to this point, all I'm suggesting is that the people who seem to have the least problems all seem to be approaching the software with kids gloves.




A dont think a comparison to a game is really relevant. A game costs a fraction of what this library costs (to the customer) and also is a recreational thing (not the end of the world if it crashes sometimes really). This is a very expensive, supposedly professional tool. Therefore the expectation of quality is far higher.

I can live with a few bugs (i wasnt even that bothered about the keyswith thing as it was easy to work around, for example). Stability is however the single most important thing to get right in any piece of software. Especially for software that people could be using to make a living/have serious time constraints.


----------



## GPlowman

ProfoundSilence said:


> the weirder thing is that seems like OT mostly swears by cubase XD, although hendrik still uses track per articulation, like a wild animal.
> 
> I had the opposite experience from you in regards to loading up an instance... I found the more instruments per instance the less stable. I originally did that to use the mic remote feature and turn nearly all the microphones on at once - which is a pretty bold move haha


I carefully, and slowly, loaded up all the mics and wanted...and started the long process of merging them into my own set up.

I now have it topping max of 5 gigs of RAM with my merged mics for a4 horns, a3 trumpets, trombones, tuba, bass trombones, and solo horn, solo trumpet. I find it works very well once I 'step around' the current crash instigators.


----------



## pawelmorytko

Don't know if this has been posted already but single instruments seem to be available now for JXL Brass, although the pricing is a bit steep compared to buying the whole collection...


----------



## GPlowman

pawelmorytko said:


> Don't know if this has been posted already but single instruments seem to be available now for JXL Brass, although the pricing is a bit steep compared to buying the whole collection...


I just checked now as I wasn't aware, and I totaled up what I use, and it came to €507.

a4 horns, a3 trumpets, a3 trombones, tuba, a3 bass trombones, and solo horn, solo trumpet. 

Seems I would have basically paid the same for the full library if I got what I wanted instrument by instrument.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

GPlowman said:


> I just checked now as I wasn't aware, and I totaled up what I use, and it came to €507.
> 
> a4 horns, a3 trumpets, a3 trombones, tuba, a3 bass trombones, and solo horn, solo trumpet.
> 
> Seems I would have basically paid the same for the full library if I got what I wanted instrument by instrument.




so bundled pricing had a point, unlike those who thought for some reason they would buy single mics for everything and have the library for like 200$

still, im sure people will buy the a12 horns and a12 bones as a very excellent alternative to things like trailer brass.


----------



## Eptesicus

ProfoundSilence said:


> so bundled pricing had a point, unlike those who thought for some reason they would buy single mics for everything and have the library for like 200$
> 
> still, im sure people will buy the a12 horns and a12 bones as a very excellent alternative to things like trailer brass.



Agreed

I think the pricing is good. The total is a few hundred more than the full bundle price. 

They were never going to make the single instruments the same or cheaper in total to the bundle. There has to be an incentive to buy the whole bundle.


----------



## GPlowman

Eptesicus said:


> Agreed
> 
> I think the pricing is good. The total is a few hundred more than the full bundle price.
> 
> They were never going to make the single instruments the same or cheaper in total to the bundle. There has to be an incentive to buy the whole bundle.



Yep it works out better. If they were on sale individually and I totaled up all I personally wanted for my template, I would have stopped and said, ah, just get the full library so, it is about the same price for the full library as getting individually what I want to use. But I now get extras that I can use later if I need to - like the a12 patches and so on.

My price also doesn't include the VAT I would have to pay, so it's more like 600 euro.


----------



## pawelmorytko

Strange that the individual instruments are not showing a discounted price... unless they already are and buying single instruments is going to be even more expensive...?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

pawelmorytko said:


> Strange that the individual instruments are not showing a discounted price... unless they already are and buying single instruments is going to be even more expensive...?



why would buying single instruments be cheaper? what kind of business model is "the collection gets more expensive the more you own"


----------



## pawelmorytko

ProfoundSilence said:


> why would buying single instruments be cheaper? what kind of business model is "the collection gets more expensive the more you own"


No no I mean, the collection is on 20% offer still, but not the individual instruments, I wonder if the Berlin Series ever go on a 40% sale again, will the individual instruments remain at full price?


----------



## Seiichirou Kubo

If you buy everything individually, even the list price seems to be far beyond...wow
Customers do not want to buy expensive libraries. Or, no redundant parts are needed. OT's a la carte system was expected to solve it...

However, if the price of the individual purchase is too high, it is unlikely that it will work.
Obviously, individual purchases have little benefit. After all, it sounds like a message to buy a bundle.
What we get is software and libraries that are buggy.

I tried it because a free layer was released....
Even the standalone version crashes with a simple operation. I laughed unintentionally

To be honest, I think it completely failed commercially..


----------



## jbuhler

TBH, the individual pricing is better than I thought it would be. It was always clear that the individual instruments would be more expensive than the bundle. But the pricing of the individual instruments seems in line with competitors' products (Cinesamples' 12 horns is $99, JXL 12 horns is 94€). It's a bit odd from the standpoint of how they might be deployed in a score that the price is largely linked to the size of the ensemble, making some instruments (solo trombone, solo horn, solo trumpet) comparative values, if those instruments themselves pass muster. (I haven't heard much about the solo horn and trombone, only that the trumpet seems less than stellar.) I do notice that the pattern breaks a bit for the tuba (79€), which is the one instrument everyone seems to rave about.


----------



## jbuhler

I also haven't been following the details religiously and wasn't able to find this information on the OT website. Is OT planning to offer an upgrade pricing to the bundle if you buy a few instruments and decide you want the whole set?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Seiichirou Kubo said:


> If you buy everything individually, even the list price seems to be far beyond...wow
> Customers do not want to buy expensive libraries. Or, no redundant parts are needed. OT's a la carte system was expected to solve it...


well OT has gotten this far with expensive libraries, probably because they are some the best libraries - not the cheapest libraries. 

Plenty of budget options out there, you're essentially asking BMW why they aren't making a cheap throwaway car to compete with Kia. 


Seiichirou Kubo said:


> However, if the price of the individual purchase is too high, it is unlikely that it will work.
> Obviously, individual purchases have little benefit. After all, it sounds like a message to buy a bundle.


that is exactly the message. Save money by buying the bundle - or pay a premium to just buy the instruments you need from it. If the individual parts are the same price as the bundle, then there was no reason to have the bundle. 


Seiichirou Kubo said:


> To be honest, I think it completely failed commercially..


it's still one of the biggest players in the game, I don't suspect they are going to close up shop anytime soon.


----------



## Consona

For the price of a4 horns, a3 trumpets and a3 bones I can get whole Cinematic Studio Brass... Hm...


----------



## GPlowman

Consona said:


> For the price of a4 horns, a3 trumpets and a3 bones I can get whole Cinematic Studio Brass... Hm...


I've yet to hear something convincing from CSB - which was a real disappointment for me considering how I love the CS Strings completely. I wanted a new brass library, but CSB just doesn't cut it (for me). I don't own it, but even the demos left me utterly cold and seems people are having trouble integrating it into their set up. All just my opinion from a real desire to want it and everything I sought out and listened to so I'd be convinced I was wrong.


----------



## Consona

GPlowman said:


> I've yet to hear something convincing from CSB - which was a real disappointment for me considering how I love the CS Strings completely. I wanted a new brass library, but CSB just doesn't cut it (for me). I don't own it, but even the demos left me utterly cold and seems people are having trouble integrating it into their set up. All just my opinion from a real desire to want it and everything I sought out and listened to so I'd be convinced I was wrong.


I'm still waiting for CineBrass Sonore. Since I have CB Core and Pro and sound-wise, it would all fit together nicely. I need to hear what that library has to offer before buying anything else.

Based on your demos, JXL can sound great, so if Sonore playability is not through the roof, I'll buy JXL horns and trumpets. I'm only concerned that the library sounds rather different to CineBrass so dunno how will CB bones and tuba sound next to JXL horns and trumpets...

Could you please mock-up this with JXL 6 horns and 3 trumpets runs legato? It's only like 2 seconds long.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey guys,

We're still working hard on an update for SINE, but make sure if you run into any issues, to email our dedicated support team. This helps us solve things quicker: [email protected]

So...we see you've spotted this already! We're so excited to finally announce that the *Download á la Carte *feature is now available!

One of the main reasons we wanted to build SINE was to make composing easier.
We're so excited to finally announce that the *Download á la Carte feature* is now available! This was at the top of our feature list when we were building SINE. It offers a new level of freedom to you—instead of buying the entire Junkie XL Brass collection, you can now purchase the library’s single instruments individually.



As we add libraries to SINE, this feature will become available for all collections.

*The single instruments in Junkie XL Brass are priced between $56 – $94, and available via the SINE Player.*

We're looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this.
Thanks again for all your support.

Best,

OT Team


----------



## jbuhler

OrchestralTools said:


> *The single instruments in Junkie XL Brass are priced between $56 – $94, and available via the SINE Player.*


Dollars or euros? (Website says euros, so I assume that's correct.) What are the terms, if any, for upgrading from individual instruments to the full bundle?


----------



## GPlowman

Consona said:


> I'm still waiting for CineBrass Sonore. Since I have CB Core and Pro and sound-wise, it would all fit together nicely. I need to hear what that library has to offer before buying anything else.
> 
> Based on your demos, JXL can sound great, so if Sonore playability is not through the roof, I'll buy JXL horns and trumpets. I'm only concerned that the library sounds rather different to CineBrass so dunno how will CB bones and tuba sound next to JXL horns and trumpets...
> 
> Could you please mock-up this with JXL 6 horns and 3 trumpets runs legato? It's only like 2 seconds long.



I tried the Wrath of Khan fast run sample, and it's not great but workable - I could take it further if I was working on my own lines, but then the piece would need the orchestration around it to bring it to life, mixing and possible layering with staccato samples in places to make it work. Kind of what I do with winds if needed. I also dropped in the full MIDI file shared earlier, and I wouldn't use that file to be honest, it's not arranged like the orchestra - seems every brass instrument is on one track called 'horns'.


----------



## Consona

GPlowman said:


> I tried the Wrath of Khan fast run sample, and it's not great but workable - I could take it further if I was working on my own lines, but then the piece would need the orchestration around it to bring it to life, mixing and possible layering with staccato samples in places to make it work. Kind of what I do with winds if needed. I also dropped in the full MIDI file shared earlier, and I wouldn't use that file to be honest, it's not arranged like the orchestra - seems every brass instrument is on one track called 'horns'.


Thank you very much! (Finally someone willing to do it after all that time.  )

That was JXL? Hm, I can get a better result with CineBrass legato. I kinda don't understand the purpose of the runs legato now. Do you use it? Is it any good actually?

Yea, the midi is messy, found it somewhere online, but it is at least possible to mock-up some parts with it.


----------



## GPlowman

Consona said:


> Thank you very much! (Finally someone willing to do it after all that time.  )
> 
> That was JXL? Hm, I can get a better result with CineBrass legato. I kinda don't understand the purpose of the runs legato now. Do you use it? Is it any good actually?
> 
> Yea, the midi is messy, found it somewhere online, but it is at least possible to mock-up some parts with it.



Runs work at different speeds I find in libraries. Exposed runs rarely ever work in MIDI unless they are canned. I'd want to hear it in context with the orchestration around it and work on it before really deciding. But also, I don't intend to only write music that requires Horner's fast brass flurries.

I have Cinebrass and with this sample it is still terrible. I think the trumpets tone in Cinebrass is better than the tone in JXL, just a preference I have which I mentioned before, but the playability/programming in JXL trumps it, plus it can sound 'lively' and like a brass section - Cinebrass doesn't compare to JXL, in so many ways. But it was a good workhorse for years.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I would use a xfade articulation with staccatissimo and fast legato for that line, I wont be at my computer until next week 

I would set it up on a separate channel but keep the same routing/ect as your horns - so that you can have the staccatissimo mod wheel instead of velocity as well as the legato only being fast legato.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

@Consona @GPlowman 

im sure it can be dialed into the right amount of blur/separation for the phrase... and that's without any reverb or anything. The idea I had was that the staccato would not be a perfect tonging(looser attack) and the attack on the sustain was to create a "pocket" for the attack of the staccatissimo - while still coming in long enough for the transition to blur it a little. 

it would sound more humanize if the staccatissmo used velocity and I edited the velocities after the fact, but it was easier to disable layers until they were a similar intensity.


----------



## I like music

ProfoundSilence said:


> @Consona @GPlowman
> 
> im sure it can be dialed into the right amount of blur/separation for the phrase... and that's without any reverb or anything. The idea I had was that the staccato would not be a perfect tonging(looser attack) and the attack on the sustain was to create a "pocket" for the attack of the staccatissimo - while still coming in long enough for the transition to blur it a little.
> 
> it would sound more humanize if the staccatissmo used velocity and I edited the velocities after the fact, but it was easier to disable layers until they were a similar intensity.




Ahhh sounds good...


----------



## Eptesicus

ProfoundSilence said:


> @Consona @GPlowman
> 
> im sure it can be dialed into the right amount of blur/separation for the phrase... and that's without any reverb or anything. The idea I had was that the staccato would not be a perfect tonging(looser attack) and the attack on the sustain was to create a "pocket" for the attack of the staccatissimo - while still coming in long enough for the transition to blur it a little.
> 
> it would sound more humanize if the staccatissmo used velocity and I edited the velocities after the fact, but it was easier to disable layers until they were a similar intensity.




This works quite well. I think you also get the advantage of the staccatisimo round robins.

A repeated fast run or ostinato type passage will sound rubbish even with the fast legato, because there is no variation and your ears can immediately detect that.


----------



## Consona

ProfoundSilence said:


> @Consona @GPlowman
> 
> im sure it can be dialed into the right amount of blur/separation for the phrase... and that's without any reverb or anything. The idea I had was that the staccato would not be a perfect tonging(looser attack) and the attack on the sustain was to create a "pocket" for the attack of the staccatissimo - while still coming in long enough for the transition to blur it a little.
> 
> it would sound more humanize if the staccatissmo used velocity and I edited the velocities after the fact, but it was easier to disable layers until they were a similar intensity.



Thx, I am at work, will listen to it later.

The line is not just legato, yea, but I wanted to know how the runs legato sounds. I am now baffled since the example above sounds like any other legato from any other brass library, so I dont know what actually the difference between normal legato and runs legato is.


----------



## axb312

GPlowman said:


> I've yet to hear something convincing from CSB - which was a real disappointment for me considering how I love the CS Strings completely. I wanted a new brass library, but CSB just doesn't cut it (for me). I don't own it, but even the demos left me utterly cold and seems people are having trouble integrating it into their set up. All just my opinion from a real desire to want it and everything I sought out and listened to so I'd be convinced I was wrong.



Wha?


----------



## GPlowman

axb312 said:


> Wha?


Just my opinion on why I didn't go for CSB despite its obvious partnership with CSS, which is amazing.


ProfoundSilence said:


> @Consona @GPlowman
> 
> im sure it can be dialed into the right amount of blur/separation for the phrase... and that's without any reverb or anything. The idea I had was that the staccato would not be a perfect tonging(looser attack) and the attack on the sustain was to create a "pocket" for the attack of the staccatissimo - while still coming in long enough for the transition to blur it a little.
> 
> it would sound more humanize if the staccatissmo used velocity and I edited the velocities after the fact, but it was easier to disable layers until they were a similar intensity.




Excellent possibilities there, thanks for showing that.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I decided to set up a multi for the berlin brass a3 trumpets with a similar order to see if I like them better. The downside is the marcatos + staccato are different lengths. maybe I could set up time machine versions to match the length of JXL brass. 

Trumpets are 8va, ofcourse.


----------



## gussunkri

In theory, if one was to buy one single instrument from Junkie XL, which would it be?
I am considering augmenting my BBCSO horns with something slightly more aggressive. Would the horn solo and/or the horn a4 from this library be a good match?


----------



## Eptesicus

gussunkri said:


> In theory, if one was to buy one single instrument from Junkie XL, which would it be?
> I am considering augmenting my BBCSO horns with something slightly more aggressive. Would the horn solo and/or the horn a4 from this library be a good match?



The A4 horn patch is great. It can get very aggressive or whisper quiet.

Don't get the A6 patch (at least not yet), as the legato is broken!


----------



## GPlowman

gussunkri said:


> In theory, if one was to buy one single instrument from Junkie XL, which would it be?
> I am considering augmenting my BBCSO horns with something slightly more aggressive. Would the horn solo and/or the horn a4 from this library be a good match?


Too general to answer. If I had a brass library where I was delighted with everything bar horns for example, I might consider replacing the weak link with another. I really like consistency when writing my music, so I try to keep one string library, one brass, etc. Only exceptions are missing articulations and extended techniques.

I will say the a4 horns in JXL are superb.


----------



## Consona

Eptesicus said:


> The A4 horn patch is great. It can get very aggressive or whisper quiet.
> 
> Don't get the A6 patch (at least not yet), as the legato is broken!


How much does the sound differ between a4 and a6?


----------



## Eptesicus

Consona said:


> How much does the sound differ between a4 and a6?



There is definitely a decent difference between a4,a6 and a12 patches. Obviously the difference between 4 and 6 isn't massive, but i think they included this breakdown so you could realistically do 2 and 3 part divisi based on a 12 horn section.


----------



## Loïc D

gussunkri said:


> In theory, if one was to buy one single instrument from Junkie XL, which would it be?
> I am considering augmenting my BBCSO horns with something slightly more aggressive. Would the horn solo and/or the horn a4 from this library be a good match?


Horns A4 for sure.
Bones, Tuba & Cimbassi are superb too.


----------



## Consona

Eptesicus said:


> There is definitely a decent difference between a4,a6 and a12 patches. Obviously the difference between 4 and 6 isn't massive, but i think they included this breakdown so you could realistically do 2 and 3 part divisi based on a 12 horn section.


Hm, so a6 horns are broken and Sine crashes Cubase...


----------



## Eptesicus

Consona said:


> Hm, so a6 horns are broken and Sine crashes Cubase...



SINE crashes all the time, Cubase or not (ie standalone). It is the most unstable VI application i have ever used unfortunately.

The legato in the A6 horns is broken. Sounds like the transitions arent triggering, or something is going wrong with the attacks/releases.

Oh and actually the A4 horns legato are very dodgy tuning wise up in the very top register..

I do hope it all gets fixed very soon.


----------



## Consona




----------



## Eptesicus

Consona said:


>



In fairness to Orchestral Tools, i don't think i have ever had a new library that doesn't have a few dodgy bits here and there. As long as they go through it all with a fine toothcomb and fix any out of tune things/dodgy transitions then thats fine.

The stability is a biggy though...they really need to fix that fast.


----------



## Consona

Eptesicus said:


> In fairness to Orchestral Tools, i don't think i have ever had a new library that doesn't have a few dodgy bits here and there. As long as they go through it all with a fine toothcomb and fix any out of tune things/dodgy transitions then thats fine.
> 
> The stability is a biggy though...


Yea, the mics merging is awesome, but honestly I can't recall even one time Kontakt crashed my DAW. And I remember all those posts regarding EWQL's Play back in the day and those lasted for some good several years. Hope OT will mend their player sooner.


----------



## Eptesicus

Consona said:


> Yea, the mics merging is awesome, but honestly I can't recall even one time Kontakt crashed my DAW. And I remember all those posts regarding EWQL's Play back in the day and those lasted for some good several years. Hope OT will mend their player sooner.



Same. I also can't recall Kontakt ever crashing on me either. I'm pretty sure it hasnt, not even once, on my current PC build (of about 2 years ish).

Stability is paramount for me. If it keeps crashing it will be unusable.


----------



## gussunkri

How are you liking the solo horn? I thought it sounded rather good in the walkthrough.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey guys,

Junkie XL is doing a LIVE Q&A from our booth at NAMM in 1 hour!

Make sure you tune in and catch it on our facebook page: www.facebook.com/orchestraltools



Remember, if you run into any issues please contact our dedicated support team at [email protected]. We're also working on a new update for SINE–we'll keep you posted on when it will be available.

Best,

OT


----------



## KEM

I’m still having the same issue since it came out, clicks and pops everywhere and I can’t even play anything, and instruments take like 10 minutes to load.


----------



## Eptesicus

gussunkri said:


> How are you liking the solo horn? I thought it sounded rather good in the walkthrough.



Its pretty good. I did the passage in the library comparison thread with it. I think it is one of the better examples of it personally.





__





Library Comparison Thread (Audio Demos)


Berlin Brass sounded pretty good - as does the updates CSB demo. I also liked Spitfire Studio Woodwinds for the Leia melody. Lot of good options - which I guess is my point of why I prefer tone over pure playability. Of course, ideally there is both and maybe in a mix, tone can be masked. But...




vi-control.net


----------



## alchemist

I'm still yet to see an update on a some broken Berlin Brass articulations I logged 3 years ago lol, don't think they'll ever get fixed, so I'm not going near the sine player after reading how buggy it is. Was just about to buy JXL Brass too, thank god for this forum.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

alchemist said:


> I'm still yet to see an update on a some broken Berlin Brass articulations I logged 3 years ago lol, don't think they'll ever get fixed, so I'm not going near the sine player after reading how buggy it is. Was just about to buy JXL Brass too, thank god for this forum.


aside from CSB I cant think of anything that might please you if that's the case. 

what articulations are "broken" in berlin brass


----------



## SZK-Max

The sound is really great. In particular, Low Brass is probably the best of many libraries. There is no charge issue. I think the value is definitely there.

However, being a crusher puts more strain on computers than mental attacks.

I hope it will be addressed as a top priority.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

KEM said:


> I’m still having the same issue since it came out, clicks and pops everywhere and I can’t even play anything, and instruments take like 10 minutes to load.


what kind of hard drive are the samples on? how much ram and what kind of processor do you have


----------



## alchemist

ProfoundSilence said:


> aside from CSB I cant think of anything that might please you if that's the case.



You don't have to think of what pleases me. Don't know you and didn't ask for your help. I'm expressing my gratitude to posters for saving me from JXL Brass and Sine based on the complaints I've seen and my own experiences with OT.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

alchemist said:


> You don't have to think of what pleases me. Don't know you and didn't ask for your help. I'm expressing my gratitude to posters for saving me from JXL Brass and Sine based on the complaints I've seen and my own experiences with OT.



I guess that's the best answer I'm going to get for the broken articulations in Berlin brass?

you seem grateful that others saved you from buying JXL brass but won't bother letting others know what is broken with berlin brass. Oh well, opinions on the internet are dime a dozen, you made it clear you didn't want my opinion and for the sake of transparency your complaint about berlin brass is of equal value to me(and likely others) until you're willing to substantiate it.

I reread my original post, which is definitely a harmless attempt at offering you my experiences to save you from purchasing further disappointment, but for some reason instead of being grateful you decided to cop an attitude - hope you have a better day.


----------



## KEM

ProfoundSilence said:


> what kind of hard drive are the samples on? how much ram and what kind of processor do you have



Samsung Evo 2tb, 32gb of memory, and an Intel i7-6700k


----------



## ProfoundSilence

KEM said:


> Samsung Evo 2tb, 32gb of memory, and an Intel i7-6700k


is the evo on a 2nd drive? or that's your OS + everything drive?


----------



## KEM

ProfoundSilence said:


> is the evo on a 2nd drive? or that's your OS + everything drive?



It’s all on the same drive.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

KEM said:


> It’s all on the same drive.


there is a setting in the player(I didn't need to adjust it) but its probably an issue with not enough loaded into ram to read from disk fast enough. 

I use dedicated SSD per section, and seperate from my OS drive. Should be something in the support area. I had the issue with syncrhon


----------



## alchemist

ProfoundSilence said:


> I reread my original post, which is definitely a harmless attempt at offering you my experiences to save you from purchasing further disappointment, but for some reason instead of being grateful you decided to cop an attitude - hope you have a better day.



Maybe try reading again. When you make obnoxious statements about a total stranger on the internet like you did in your first post about nothing can please me, and do these sceptical quotation marks like as if you’re someone I need to explain myself to, I write you off as someone toxic and not worth talking to. You could have asked genuinely hey which patches are giving you trouble? And I would show you the bug trackers logged, but the way you say things shows your intent to argue rather than genuine concern. I don’t need that kind of negativity from a username on a forum I’ve grown rather fond of recently.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

alchemist said:


> Maybe try reading again. When you make obnoxious statements about a total stranger on the internet like you did in your first post about nothing can please me, and do these sceptical quotation marks like as if you’re someone I need to explain myself to, I write you off as someone toxic and not worth talking to. You could have asked genuinely hey which patches are giving you trouble? And I would show you the bug trackers logged, but the way you say things shows your intent to argue rather than genuine concern. I don’t need that kind of negativity from a username on a forum I’ve grown rather fond of recently.


have a good life stranger


----------



## alchemist

ProfoundSilence said:


> have a good life stranger


Thank you 🙏


----------



## novaburst

tabulius said:


> I've been building a modular template for Studio One and at least during composing this piece and building the template I had zero crashes and no problems with Sine. I hope OT fixes the poly switch recall bug soon. Nevertheless JXL brass is great for this type of epic music! All the brass is JXL.



Nice one, put together very well, yes the brass is nice but the piece as a whole nailed it


----------



## AlainTH

finally bought the library... lot of money... it sounds very good for the instruments i downloaded at this time so it is a very nice start ! Just the gui is bugging when i choose license and store menus if my 4k screens are on more than 100% size characters, i have to switch on 100% before each time... not a so nice start...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

@GPlowman since you seem to like programming some of this stuff, I made a short tutorial(voiceless) tutorial on how to create better double tonguing for JXL brass by creating separate "ta" and "ka" articulations. 






Better Double Tonguing for JXL Brass(or any library that allows you to control RR)


This can be used with any library that allows you to control the RR order, and enable/disable each individual round robin. Obviously the process is the exact same for CAPSULE libraries because the round robins are just little bubbles you click on and off. Basically, I split the staccatissimo...




vi-control.net





Also, if people are wondering what faster rhythm programming for JXL brass looks like - that's some trumpets a3.


----------



## GPlowman

ProfoundSilence said:


> @GPlowman since you seem to like programming some of this stuff, I made a short tutorial(voiceless) tutorial on how to create better double tonguing for JXL brass by creating separate "ta" and "ka" articulations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Better Double Tonguing for JXL Brass(or any library that allows you to control RR)
> 
> 
> This can be used with any library that allows you to control the RR order, and enable/disable each individual round robin. Obviously the process is the exact same for CAPSULE libraries because the round robins are just little bubbles you click on and off. Basically, I split the staccatissimo...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, if people are wondering what faster rhythm programming for JXL brass looks like - that's some trumpets a3.


Very nice, after an initial 'play around' period, I do like to start going into the samples and seeing what I can tweak. The SINE player has some superb easy options for adjusting the samples.

I've also finished all I'm going to do on the Star Wars main theme, so here's the 'final'. JXL brass all the way, except for a muted trumpet at the very end of course.


----------



## erica-grace

GPlowman said:


> I've also finished all I'm going to do on the Star Wars main theme, so here's the 'final'. JXL brass all the way, except for a muted trumpet at the very end of course.



Not bad. The trumpets are a bit much - especially in the beginning. What patch did you use? (I dont have JXLB). Maybe try a smaller one?


----------



## GPlowman

erica-grace said:


> Not bad. The trumpets are a bit much - especially in the beginning. What patch did you use? (I dont have JXLB). Maybe try a smaller one?


a3 trumpets, while I'm not a huge fan of the trumpet tone in JXL brass, I think they sound good here. Maybe you mean they are just a little loud?


----------



## erica-grace

That's a3? Wow - thought it would be a6, or maybe even more.

No, I don't think that they are too loud - they sound too BIG. Listen here:



Is that a3? I don't know. But they don't sound as BIG - they aren't taking over the joint, as in your example.


----------



## GPlowman

erica-grace said:


> That's a3? Wow - thought it would be a6, or maybe even more.
> 
> No, I don't think that they are too loud - they sound too BIG. Listen here:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a3? I don't know. But they don't sound as BIG - they aren't taking over the joint, as in your example.



I reckon it's just a mixing choice - there are lots of different versions of the theme from the films and they all sound different in various ways. Some have the triangle tremolo too loud, some favour only the low brass, some sound rather clearer than others. The old original recordings have very hard panned instruments, the brand new ones sound very clean, but loses some of that natural room sound, and so on.


----------



## kmm08

> The error "Synchronization timed out after asynchronous rendering. Request queue is full" seems to pop up every time you download a new instrument in version 1.01 or mic positions. It keeps popping up continuously afterwards and then freezes the app which needs to be force quit. Can reproduce it every time. Downloaded most of the XL Brass library with 1.00 the week it came out in multiple downloads. Don't recall this happening once during the process. Tried trashing the cache as well as other prefs.
Click to expand...


----------



## jononotbono

I’m finding VEPRO 6 is now hanging as I try and shut it down since putting the whole of JXLB in my template. Have had to force quit each time for the past 4-5 days. Anyone else experiencing anything else like this?


----------



## jcrosby

jononotbono said:


> I’m finding VEPRO 6 is now hanging as I try and shut it down since putting the whole of JXLB in my template. Have had to force quit each time for the past 4-5 days. Anyone else experiencing anything else like this?



Yes. Same here. This also started happening to me in all DAWS once I added the whole lot of instruments. I.e. a few patches and Logic, Live and Bitwig would close and open fine. Once I upped the articulations, templates I made in each DAW all started to hang.

For me I now get a hang on open in all DAWs with Sine hosted in the DAW. I've kept activity monitor open and have tons of free RAM so it's not a memory issue.

Hosting in VEP causes Bitwig to hang when closing, force quit is required. In other DAWs they close most of the time, if they succeed, VEP won't disconnect and force quitting VEP is required every time.

Before this started happening I noticed I'd sometimes see Sine load, but it would prevent Kontakt from finishing loading. I've also seen it temporarily freeze the DAW before loading any mic position so it sure seems like memory allocation is part of the issue.


----------



## Loïc D

I noticed also something troublesome.

I've got a template in Logic Pro X where all JXL instruments are spread across track : each track hosts a mono-timbral stereo SINE player (with 1 instrument only).
All track are disabled to save RAM and quickly open my template.

Once I enable one SINE track, I see that SINE is loading all the instruments, including those on disabled tracks. RAM toll gets pretty high. If I enable another track then, nothing happens since it's already been loaded by the first enabled SINE track.

It kinda ruins the 1-instance-per-track-to-save-RAM-on-disabled-tracks approach.

I'd be glad if someone can confirm this (LPX 10.4, Mojave). If so, I'll raise a ticket.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

why not use single instruments per sine instance? Sine doesn't have articulation specific purge yet, so if you load any articulation it loads all the articulations.

why would you be saving any ram having a single sine instance for everything?


----------



## GPlowman

LowweeK said:


> I noticed also something troublesome.
> 
> I've got a template in Logic Pro X where all JXL instruments are spread across track : each track hosts a mono-timbral stereo SINE player (with 1 instrument only).
> All track are disabled to save RAM and quickly open my template.
> 
> Once I enable one SINE track, I see that SINE is loading all the instruments, including those on disabled tracks. RAM toll gets pretty high. If I enable another track then, nothing happens since it's already been loaded by the first enabled SINE track.
> 
> It kinda ruins the 1-instance-per-track-to-save-RAM-on-disabled-tracks approach.
> 
> I'd be glad if someone can confirm this (LPX 10.4, Mojave). If so, I'll raise a ticket.


I only use one instance myself, but I see what you're saying. It would seem the SINE player instances are all responding to the behaviour of any one other instance. 

So they aren't truly independent instances.


----------



## jononotbono

jcrosby said:


> Yes. Same here. This also started happening to me in all DAWS once I added the whole lot of instruments. I.e. a few patches and Logic, Live and Bitwig would close and open fine. Once I upped the articulations, templates I made in each DAW all started to hang.
> 
> For me I now get a hang on open in all DAWs with Sine hosted in the DAW. I've kept activity monitor open and have tons of free RAM so it's not a memory issue.
> 
> Hosting in VEP causes Bitwig to hang when closing, force quit is required. In other DAWs they close most of the time, if they succeed, VEP won't disconnect and force quitting VEP is required every time.
> 
> Before this started happening I noticed I'd sometimes see Sine load, but it would prevent Kontakt from finishing loading. I've also seen it temporarily freeze the DAW before loading any mic position so it sure seems like memory allocation is part of the issue.



This behaviour also happened to me when I put HZ Strings (with the new Spitfire Player) into VEPro. I'm hoping this can be sorted out (for both players). When I disable everything, save the VEPro Session, and then Shut it down, it's fine and works normally. I expect problems to be there with a v1 release of a player so I'm not pissed or anything butI definitely feel the need to mention this because I can't have that for the rest of time.


----------



## EBicks

Hey does anybody know if or when the AAX version of SINE will be released? Or if there is an easier workaround for Pro Tools then to just buy VEP ? I'd rather not spend $200 on VEP just to run this one library (Yes, I bought a couple of the JXL instruments today without reading the fine print.. ). HELP!


----------



## Supremo

jononotbono said:


> I’m finding VEPRO 6 is now hanging as I try and shut it down since putting the whole of JXLB in my template. Have had to force quit each time for the past 4-5 days. Anyone else experiencing anything else like this?


Same thing occurring with me all the time. That's what I reported here a couple pages ago.


----------



## jononotbono

Supremo said:


> Same thing occurring with me all the time. That's what I reported here a couple pages ago.



Report it to OT. Not here on a page.

This is, in no way a scientific or calculated test, but I closed VEPro about 4 hrs ago, decided to have a few beers and I just checked and VEPro and it's shutdown. So, between a click and 4hrs, it does actually work. I can't be of anymore help right now.

Tomorrow I shall time it. Maybe film it (in case no one believes it). I'll do the same for HZ Strings.


----------



## AlainTH

not agree, it is important that problems are shared here.


----------



## Eptesicus

jononotbono said:


> I’m finding VEPRO 6 is now hanging as I try and shut it down since putting the whole of JXLB in my template. Have had to force quit each time for the past 4-5 days. Anyone else experiencing anything else like this?



Yes, Cubase hangs on shutting down when JXL Brass is in use. Have to force quit which isnt ideal.


----------



## Eptesicus

jononotbono said:


> Report it to OT. Not here on a page.



?

Surely the community should be aware that there is a widespread freezing/hanging issue with the SINE player so that they can make a more informed choice as to whether to invest in it yet?

Is that not what communities like this are partially for? If we want to discuss the issues we are having, then we have every right to discuss the issues we are having..


----------



## Benjamin Duk

No hanging with Cubase and JXL here when exiting Cubase. To be fair I would sometimes get these hangs with Cubase before JXL. I think it's more of a Cubase issue.

I found that if you load an empty project and then close Cubase and wait for it to close normally it would refresh something. Then if I load that project that was hanging on close it would now exit. So more of a Cubase issue than JXL.


----------



## Eptesicus

Benjamin Duk said:


> No hanging with Cubase and JXL here when exiting Cubase. To be fair I would sometimes get these hangs with Cubase before JXL. I think it's more of a Cubase issue.
> 
> I found that if you load an empty project and then close Cubase and wait for it to close normally it would refresh something. Then if I load that project that was hanging on close it would now exit. So more of a Cubase issue than JXL.



My issue is definitely related to JXL/SINE. The fact it crashes/freezes when unloading instruments or closing it in standalone mode also confirms this.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

cubases favorite thing to do is make you force close it, to be fair. 

it's practically a meme


----------



## Nomadozic

Am I the only one experiencing some weird CPU overloads (40% to 100%) causing freezes for like 1 or 2 sec to times to times when playing the XLBrass samples with Cubase ? It happen a lot when the samples stock in memory are played for the first time. I'm not sure if it comes from Sine, Cubase (9.5) or my CPU (i7 3GHz) but it is definitly Sine related. Had never experienced this before. While XLBrass is a great product, I found Sine very unstable for now, it feels to me like walking on eggs when composing and loading samples.


----------



## jcrosby

Nomadozic said:


> Am I the only one experiencing some weird CPU overloads (40% to 100%) causing freezes for like 1 or 2 sec to times to times when playing the XLBrass samples with Cubase ? It happen a lot when the samples stock in memory are played for the first time. I'm not sure if it comes from Sine, Cubase (9.5) or my CPU (i7 3GHz) but it is definitly Sine related. Had never experienced this before. While XLBrass is a great product, I found Sine very unstable for now, it feels to me like walking on eggs when composing and loading samples.


I see something kind of like this in Live & Bitwig. The first time I play any sample from any patch after it loads both would start stuttering/echoing. Basically something would get stuck in the buffer.

Bitwig would sort itself out, most of the time Live though would beach ball and hang requiring force quit. Once in a blue moon Live would straighten itself out, but very rarely.

So Although it's slightly different, it's similar in that something weird happens on the first few notes, and the behavior is almost the same in 2 different DAWs. (I.e this is definitely not DAW specific for me.)

Playing while samples load and forget about it; game over... Both DAWs hang. Bitwig often spits out a 'plugin crashed' message then shuts the audio engine off completely, a few times it outright crashed BW, (which is rare to say the least.) Live stutters/echos indefinitely and force quit is the only thing you can do.

Also FTR ALL of these issues have already been sent into [email protected]
(Getting near a month since reported now. I'm being as patient as I can but this is starting to get a bit frustrating...)


----------



## Consona

I force close Cubase regularly, basically every time I have some bigger project it has to be closed via the task manager. At least Kontakt doesn't crash my Cubase.


----------



## AlainTH

i wish the 'pre-orderers' don't wait too much the promised masterclass


----------



## GPlowman

Consona said:


> I force close Cubase regularly, basically every time I have some bigger project it has to be closed via the task manager. At least Kontakt doesn't crash my Cubase.


Does this happen even if you close the SINE player instance before closing? I only had to force close my DAW (ableton) when the SINE window was open. When I don't have it displayed, it doesn't hang when closing.


----------



## SlHarder

For me, attempting to close the Sine instance triggers a force close of the Daw. A previous save of the project then needs to cleaned up by loading project, removing Sine instance and reinserting. A previous save of project and reload without removing Sine will mean the Sine is still wounded. Within Sine problem for me resides in the articulation column, once loaded from library any delete or move of articulation may cause troubles. Standalone also misbehaves in somewhat same manner.


----------



## Eptesicus

SlHarder said:


> For me, attempting to close the Sine instance triggers a force close of the Daw. A previous save of the project then needs to cleaned up by loading project, removing Sine instance and reinserting. A previous save of project and reload without removing Sine will mean the Sine is still wounded. Within Sine problem for me resides in the articulation column, once loaded from library any delete or move of articulation may cause troubles. Standalone also misbehaves in somewhat same manner.



Whilst bad, it is heartening to know that loads of people have the same/similar issue.

This would point to it being a rather large fundamental issue with the player, rather than a small bug that only shows up for very few people.

The fact its so widespread will hopefully mean it is more likely to be fixed properly.


----------



## SlHarder

I agree. I didnt mention in previous post I'm working with Layers.

I really like what they seem capable of, and once Sine gets sorted out I'll likely ala carte some of the low brass from JXL.

Patience is a virtue.


----------



## artomatic

In Pro Tools Ultimate (Mac), when it loads VEP 7 with JXL/Sine, it freezes both PT and VEP. Without JXL, the session loads normally.
My workaround: before quitting PT, I disable ("make inactive") the instrument that contains JXL/Sine.
When launching PT, VEP loads all the other instances as usual. 
Then I select the disabled instrument in PT that contains JXL/Sine and make it active. VEP then loads all the JXL instances without freezing.
Reported to OT support.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey everyone,

The next SINE update is coming really soon, and we're trying to address the issues mentioned.

In the meantime, please keep reaching out and reporting any issues to [email protected]. It really does help us isolate and pinpoint what's causing errors on specific systems.

Thanks to all of you who have contacted support so far, and to all of you who have been encouraging other users to get in touch directly—it's a massive help.

More soon,

OT


----------



## jacobthestupendous

Tvliesin said:


> Has there been any word on the masterclass?


Got my email invite to the JXL preorder masterclass this weekend...


----------



## KEM

February 8th!!


----------



## Fitz

Does anyone know if I can assign volume faders to MIDI CC? Trying to set up so I can control microphone positions from my controller but don't know if sine allows that yet like Spitfire and Kontakt. Anyone know? @OrchestralTools


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Fitz said:


> Does anyone know if I can assign volume faders to MIDI CC? Trying to set up so I can control microphone positions from my controller but don't know if sine allows that yet like Spitfire and Kontakt. Anyone know? @OrchestralTools


cc7 works, and is reassignable but not individual microphone positions(yet). 

its planned but not implemented


----------



## gst98

Can anyone who's bought some stuff a la carte let me know what their upgrade pricing is?


----------



## coprhead6

gst98 said:


> Can anyone who's bought some stuff a la carte let me know what their upgrade pricing is?



I just bought the Solo Trombone.

My upgrade price is now 709,09


----------



## gst98

coprhead6 said:


> I just bought the Solo Trombone.
> 
> My upgrade price is now 709,09


Thanks, I assume you’re talking about euros then. So 40 euros off.


----------



## coprhead6

gst98 said:


> Thanks, I assume you’re talking about euros then. So 40 euros off.



Yep, it’s an extra 16 euros to buy it separately.

Side note, this solo trombone compliments my Spitfire Trombones a2 very nicely. It gives them bite and focus!


----------



## Zero&One

gst98 said:


> Thanks, I assume you’re talking about euros then. So 40 euros off.



Remember to add VAT if applicable, I bought 3 singles and my upgrade is 591,50 € (709,80 € with vat)
I doubt I'll buy the full, so it's still a good entry point.


----------



## gst98

Zero&One said:


> Remember to add VAT if applicable, I bought 3 singles and my upgrade is 591,50 € (709,80 € with vat)
> I doubt I'll buy the full, so it's still a good entry point.


Thanks for the info!


----------



## gussunkri

Zero&One said:


> Remember to add VAT if applicable, I bought 3 singles and my upgrade is 591,50 € (709,80 € with vat)
> I doubt I'll buy the full, so it's still a good entry point.


Which three singles? 
Happy?


----------



## Zero&One

gussunkri said:


> Which three singles?
> Happy?



Cimbassi, bass trombones & trombones.
Yes very, the sound is incredible.


----------



## jbuhler

gst98 said:


> Thanks, I assume you’re talking about euros then. So 40 euros off.


It seems they credit you about 70% of your a la carte purchase toward the full library.


----------



## jbuhler

coprhead6 said:


> Yep, it’s an extra 16 euros to buy it separately.
> 
> Side note, this solo trombone compliments my Spitfire Trombones a2 very nicely. It gives them bite and focus!


Good to know! This is exactly what I’m eyeing and for similar reasons.


----------



## Fitz

ProfoundSilence said:


> cc7 works, and is reassignable but not individual microphone positions(yet).
> 
> its planned but not implemented


Agggh thats a bummer! OT, I really hope this gets updated soon!! Love this library btw. Not beaten by anything.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Fitz said:


> Agggh thats a bummer! OT, I really hope this gets updated soon!! Love this library btw. Not beaten by anything.


yeah I emailed them a bucket list of stuff i miss from capsule and got a non official confirmation that its planned


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jbuhler said:


> It seems they credit you about 70% of your a la carte purchase toward the full library.


that's actually pretty good... 

so basically if you upgrade you lose 30% of your purchases. i.e. somebody who buys 3 instruments(trumpets horns and bones) only loses about 100$ total.


----------



## jbuhler

ProfoundSilence said:


> that's actually pretty good...
> 
> so basically if you upgrade you lose 30% of your purchases. i.e. somebody who buys 3 instruments(trumpets horns and bones) only loses about 100$ total.


yes, i'm definitely trying out the solo trombone when I have a bit of time in a couple of weeks.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jbuhler said:


> yes, i'm definitely trying out the solo trombone when I have a bit of time in a couple of weeks.


pass me a midi and I can show you what SSB and Solo bone sound like


----------



## jbuhler

ProfoundSilence said:


> pass me a midi and I can show you what SSB and Solo bone sound like


I'll likely take you up on this kind offer. Thanks! I probably won't get to it until tomorrow though.


----------



## jononotbono

Boom! Got an e-mail abut Masterclass tomorrow! Excited!


----------



## Eptesicus

Can't say im overly enthused about the masterclass any more, seen as i still can't use the library properly..

I guess i will have to watch it recorded once they get around to fixing it.


----------



## Loïc D

Eptesicus said:


> Can't say im overly enthused about the masterclass any more, seen as i still can't use the library properly..
> 
> I guess i will have to watch it recorded once they get around to fixing it.


You can still attend for the live Q&A with Tom.


----------



## gst98

Got JXL brass this morning, its been running perfectly with no lag or crashes, the only thing is it tends to reset to a blank instance when re opening the session.


----------



## jononotbono

Eptesicus said:


> Can't say im overly enthused about the masterclass any more, seen as i still can't use the library properly..
> 
> I guess i will have to watch it recorded once they get around to fixing it.



What problems are you having? Sorry, I don't have time to re read all this thread. What you on? PC? OSX? Have you messaged OT about all your problems you're having?


----------



## Eptesicus

jononotbono said:


> What problems are you having? Sorry, I don't have time to re read all this thread. What you on? PC? OSX? Have you messaged OT about all your problems you're having?



Yes I have contacted them.

It freezes randomly (but frequently), mostly when unloading/clearing the articulation list. It has never done it when playing. It's always when loading/unloading or clicking on an articulation. Happens in standalone and in Cubase. If it happens in Cubase, Cubase will lock up too.

I'm on windows 10, cubase 10. PC has been rock solid stable for years and cant remember the last time anything froze or crashed before SINE (ie Kontakt, Omnisphere Vienna instruments, Synchron Player, Engine etc all work with no issues).

I'm sure it's something to do with how it interacts with memory/memory allocation.


----------



## Peter Satera

jononotbono said:


> Boom! Got an e-mail abut Masterclass tomorrow! Excited!



I'm still waiting...


----------



## jononotbono

Eptesicus said:


> Yes I have contacted them.
> 
> It freezes randomly (but frequently), mostly when unloading/clearing the articulation list. It has never done it when playing. It's always when loading/unloading or clicking on an articulation. Happens in standalone and in Cubase. If it happens in Cubase, Cubase will lock up too.
> 
> I'm on windows 10, cubase 10. PC has been rock solid stable for years and cant remember the last time anything froze or crashed before SINE (ie Kontakt, Omnisphere Vienna instruments, Synchron Player, Engine etc all work with no issues).
> 
> I'm sure it's something to do with how it interacts with memory/memory allocation.



Are you using it in VEPro or with instrument tracks in Cubase?

I basically do not touch any of the store and online elements because something goes weird when I do. When I load instruments, I make sure I do not touch anything until they have fully loaded as it feels like it freezes if I don't. Obviously this isn't ideal yet but I don't expect everything to be faultless with a v1 of a new player and this is OT. This stuff is without doubt going to be fixed.

I use it in VEPro and I have a problem with VEPro hanging when closing everything down.

As for unloading articulations, have you tried just deleting the instrument track to see if that crashes Cubase or just deletes the instrument track (assuming you are using Instrument tracks with it in Cubase) and then reloading a new Instrument track and Instrument? Obviously not ideal at all but it might be a workaround at the minute?


----------



## Eptesicus

jononotbono said:


> Are you using it in VEPro or with instrument tracks in Cubase?
> 
> I basically do not touch any of the store and online elements because something goes weird when I do. When I load instruments, I make sure I do not touch anything until they have fully loaded as it feels like it freezes if I don't. Obviously this isn't ideal yet but I don't expect everything to be faultless with a v1 of a new player and this is OT. This stuff is without doubt going to be fixed.
> 
> I use it in VEPro and I have a problem with VEPro hanging when closing everything down.
> 
> As for unloading articulations, have you tried just deleting the instrument track to see if that crashes Cubase or just deletes the instrument track (assuming you are using Instrument tracks with it in Cubase) and then reloading a new Instrument track and Instrument? Obviously not ideal at all but it might be a workaround at the minute?




I believe the hanging when closing down in VEPro you are experiencing is likely related (as likewise it often freezes when closing in standalone, or Cubase will freeze when closing the project (because of SINE)).

It isnt just limited to that though, because it froze on me today when i was just simply changing articulations in the player with the mouse cursor.


----------



## 5Lives

Masterclass was interesting - though the stream had a lot of clicks and pops during playback. Also, he talked a lot about mixing and less about the unique aspects / programming tips of the library (he did throw a couple things in). Still, nice of him to do this for us pre-order folks.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

5Lives said:


> Masterclass was interesting - though the stream had a lot of clicks and pops during playback. Also, he talked a lot about mixing and less about the unique aspects / programming tips of the library (he did throw a couple things in). Still, nice of him to do this for us pre-order folks.




JXL's host machine was a toaster, like I said, he spends his hard earned money on shoes LOL.


----------



## Eptesicus

5Lives said:


> Masterclass was interesting - though the stream had a lot of clicks and pops during playback. Also, he talked a lot about mixing and less about the unique aspects / programming tips of the library (he did throw a couple things in). Still, nice of him to do this for us pre-order folks.



Yeh, there was some interesting stuff and i certainly picked up some useful tips, but as you say it seemed mostly about mixing.

I was hoping for more of a focused masterclass on brass writing, and how to use the library itself.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

i'd love to see a Sascha/Hendrik masterclass on how they use their own products.


----------



## andreªs

IMHO it wasn't the best representation of the library...


----------



## novaburst

Seem to be lucking out with this Library, purchasing single ensemble or solo instruments really gives the chance to test drive, 

I am lucking out as i know the Sine player is more so a windows 10 build but seems to be working very stable on windows 7, download an instrument and recorded in a fair size project with know issues hooked up in VEpro 7 opening and closing just fine no glitches, no hangs no long closing. mind you i only have a small snippet of the library so could play into my favour, and possibly the way to go for stability.

I have quite a few brass library's but this one does take the biscuit, sound quality is another level and very nice for OT to have purging in the player the pp,mp, ff, fff, what is going on i think its easy to see that OT are game changers dont think i need the whole library so purchasing in parts is just my cup of tea.

Cant wait to get involved with there existing library's


----------



## ProfoundSilence

glad you're lucking out on stability, dont mind me, I'm just going to shamelessly plug my "better double tonguing" guide is in the workflow tips and diy


----------



## sourcefor

If you were to buy one section ala carte which would it be first!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

sourcefor said:


> If you were to buy one section ala carte which would it be first!


horns a4 or a3 bass trombone


----------



## KEM

ProfoundSilence said:


> JXL's host machine was a toaster, like I said, he spends his hard earned money on shoes LOL.



Woah woah woah... don’t hate on the Gucci sneakers!!


----------



## novaburst

sourcefor said:


> If you were to buy one section ala carte which would it be first!



I picked up French horns a6. I think I will go for some trumpet ensemble next.

There are so many mic positions to experiment with reverse and all sorts I think it's the key to a great sound.

In any case the library is huge it's kind of like walking into a real life store and searching around for what works for you,


----------



## David Kudell

Just want to add my experience with Sine player and the library has been great. I’m on Logic. Very stable here.


----------



## Eptesicus

novaburst said:


> I picked up French horns a6.



Not a good one to pick up as the legato is currently broken in the A6 section!


----------



## novaburst

Eptesicus said:


> Not a good one to pick up as the legato is currently broken in the A6 section!



Haha still plays well, I did not notice,, is it on certain notes


----------



## Eptesicus

novaburst said:


> Haha still plays well, I did not notice,, is it on certain notes



The legato is nowhere near as smooth as the other sections. Sounds like the transitions are being cut. Definitely something funky going on. Other users on here have commented the same.


----------



## novaburst

I actually thought it was my machine glitching out ont me, yes I can confirm, trust me to pick the worse ensemble out of all the horns haha, that's how it goes some times

How are the trumpets anyone


----------



## Eptesicus

novaburst said:


> I actually thought it was my machine glitching out ont me, yes I can confirm, trust me to pick the worse ensemble out of all the horns haha, that's how it goes some times



Hopefully this will be fixed in the first JXLB update. I have no doubt the 6 horn legato will be as good as the 4 and 12 once fixed.


----------



## jcrosby

David Kudell said:


> Just want to add my experience with Sine player and the library has been great. I’m on Logic. Very stable here.


Opposite for me, the only time Logic has been unstable is when using Sine. And most Sine projects won't open or develop a bug that renders the project unstable when resaving the project.

I just documented a bug today where if I save a project as a new version Sine suddenly goes silent after it saves the copy. Attempting to open the UI to troubleshoot causes and immediate crash. Reproduced it 6 times in a row and captured a bunch of video. This also happens on two machines, a 2018 MBP and a hackintosh, behavior's identical.

Do you have custom mic merges? Wondering if this is the source of the issue.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

novaburst said:


> I actually thought it was my machine glitching out ont me, yes I can confirm, trust me to pick the worse ensemble out of all the horns haha, that's how it goes some times
> 
> How are the trumpets anyone



I prefer the a3


----------



## Ruffian Price

novaburst said:


> very nice for OT to have purging in the player the pp,mp, ff, fff


It's actually an option in the Capsule libraries as well! Third tab, IIRC. Very useful.


----------



## jononotbono

Am I right in thinking I heard Tom say in the private Masterclass that he was going to release the Masterclass publicly? I haven’t had time to watch it a second time yet.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jononotbono said:


> Am I right in thinking I heard Tom say in the private Masterclass that he was going to release the Masterclass publicly? I haven’t had time to watch it a second time yet.


I'm not sure if it was intended to be public prior to him saying that - but I dont think any of us mind either way. 

defeats the purpose of exclusive masterclass, but I'm the literal last person to care YMMV


----------



## David Kudell

jcrosby said:


> Do you have custom mic merges? Wondering if this is the source of the issue.


Haven't had a chance to use custom mic mixes, just using the AMXL mixes or the unprocessed Tree mic.


----------



## jononotbono

ProfoundSilence said:


> but I'm the literal last person to care



Have you knocked on the door, of every single person living on Planet Earth and checked with them first to make sure?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jononotbono said:


> Have you knocked on the door, of every single person living on Planet Earth and checked with them first to make sure?


I feel like wanting it to be public is as far away as you can get from not caring. 

or maybe it's not, maybe being completely indifferent is the least caring. in which anyone who doesn't even know what it is probably cares less

you caught me fair and square, my street cred has been diminished


----------



## jononotbono

ProfoundSilence said:


> you caught me fair and square, my street cred has been diminished



You can get it back. Just gotta knock on some doors and you’ll be good to go.


----------



## Jdiggity1

jononotbono said:


> You can get it back. Just gotta knock on some doors and you’ll be good to go.


Please don't encourage him. I had to get the hose last time.


----------



## bvaughn0402

Does anyone know how updates work? Will those be pushed automatically, or show up somewhere in the Sine player?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Jdiggity1 said:


> Please don't encourage him. I had to get the hose last time.


good enough for a dog good enough for me

a lawn is a lawn, you could have at least thanked me for the fertilizer


----------



## Alex Niedt

bvaughn0402 said:


> Does anyone know how updates work? Will those be pushed automatically, or show up somewhere in the Sine player?


Should look about like this in My Licenses once available to you...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Alex Niedt said:


> Should look about like this in My Licenses once available to you...




huh?
last time we just had to manually install it... weird


----------



## Eptesicus

jononotbono said:


> Am I right in thinking I heard Tom say in the private Masterclass that he was going to release the Masterclass publicly? I haven’t had time to watch it a second time yet.



Um, I hope not. It was a pre order exclusive...


----------



## Alex Niedt

ProfoundSilence said:


> huh?
> last time we just had to manually install it... weird


You do have to install it. Once you click on the library upon seeing the update notification, you'll see the available "Add Update" options. And so no one gets confused, these updates are not live. I'm posting these screenshots as examples.


----------



## blue5

But when is the actual update coming? It was said "really soon" two weeks ago. Does "really soon" means days, weeks, months, years...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

blue5 said:


> But when is the actual update coming? It was said "really soon" two weeks ago. Does "really soon" means days, weeks, months, years...


hopefully as soon as it's ready. wouldn't make any sense sending out an update that breaks more than it fixes, even if that meant a difference of two werks


----------



## blue5

sure, that makes sense. but for some people the player didn't worked properly from its release date in december. I think impatience is understandable since we payed for the working product


----------



## ProfoundSilence

blue5 said:


> sure, that makes sense. but for some people the player didn't worked properly from its release date in december. I think impatience is understandable since we payed for the working product


what kind of issue were you having?


----------



## Nemoy

Anyone on VEPro6 in Windows and can clarify if JXL Brass is working fine now with the Sine Player? I read there were issues with Sine and VEPro. Anyhow, hope to see more updates for the Sine Player asap.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

@blue5 

hey, not sure if you saw my reply, but what kind of issues with JXL are you having?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Nemoy said:


> Anyone on VEPro6 in Windows and can clarify if JXL Brass is working fine now with the Sine Player? I read there were issues with Sine and VEPro. Anyhow, hope to see more updates for the Sine Player asap.


 my advice would be to download layers and try it. 

user experience doesn't seem to be consistent and what works flawlessly for one doesn't work at all for another.


----------



## Nemoy

ProfoundSilence said:


> my advice would be to download layers and try it.
> 
> user experience doesn't seem to be consistent and what works flawlessly for one doesn't work at all for another.



Good suggestion. I will try that. Thanks so much!


----------



## blue5

ProfoundSilence said:


> @blue5
> 
> hey, not sure if you saw my reply, but what kind of issues with JXL are you having?



Mainly occasional crashing VEP7, samples not loading while opening template, which makes the software unusable for me since I work on very tight schedules. I knew that-that might come while preordering the product since it's the new player. But its already months since release and its their flagship product...at least if we would know when the update is coming.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

blue5 said:


> Mainly occasional crashing VEP7, samples not loading while opening template, which makes the software unusable for me since I work on very tight schedules. I knew that-that might come while preordering the product since it's the new player. But its already months since release and its their flagship product...at least if we would know when the update is coming.


it has not been "months" yet. 

have you tried switch to multiple instances/multiple VEP frames? 

some reported more stability ect with all ik 1 instance. some split it out per instrument or section. 

JXL for instance uses 4 instances of VEP (one per section) then separate instances for each a3/a6/12 ect.


----------



## blue5

ProfoundSilence said:


> it has not been "months" yet.
> 
> have you tried switch to multiple instances/multiple VEP frames?
> 
> some reported more stability ect with all ik 1 instance. some split it out per instrument or section.
> 
> JXL for instance uses 4 instances of VEP (one per section) then separate instances for each a3/a6/12 ect.



well ok...in 5 days its 2 months since release 

I'll try setting it up with dedicated instances, so far I was using it in the same instances with Kontakt. Maybe that could be the issue. So far I saw, JXL uses dedicated VEP computer without any Kontakt instances in the VEP project, only sine player.

Thanks anyway!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

blue5 said:


> well ok...in 5 days its 2 months since release
> 
> I'll try setting it up with dedicated instances, so far I was using it in the same instances with Kontakt. Maybe that could be the issue. So far I saw, JXL uses dedicated VEP computer without any Kontakt instances in the VEP project, only sine player.
> 
> Thanks anyway!


 I can tell you personally I just use a dedicated player per instrument ,but I'm not using vep either
Ymmv, like I said some people have had more stability all in one instance

Some people mentioned not being able to open a project if they left the effect window open when they saved it and I think that happened to me once, but I started making sure I closed it before saving even if irs just superstitious at this point and haven't had an issue opening a project since.


----------



## Hendrik-Schwarzer

Hey guys,

I just wanted to give you a brief update on where we are with the SINE development. We’ve seen some discussion here and we don’t want you to think we’re ignoring you!

We’re still working on the update. We’ve fixed a lot of issues over the past few weeks that will improve stability and performance e.g. the hanging notes issue. Unfortunately, while working on the update, we ran into another issue that prevents us from getting our new update through the new notarization standards for Mac OS Catalina. Hence the delay.

Our plan is to get this update released ASAP. When all fixes are in, we go to QA, then do a regression test, and if all goes well, we’re ready to go. I can assure you we’re working with everything we’ve got on the upcoming SINE version, and we want to make sure the update is 100% ready when we release it.

Thanks to all of you who’ve been reporting bugs to our support—it really does help. And thanks for both your patience, and your understanding. 

All the best, 
Hendrik


----------



## JohnG

thanks @Hendrik-Schwarzer


----------



## OrchestralTools

Eptesicus said:


> Um, I hope not. It was a pre order exclusive...



Hey guys,

Just to add, the Junkie XL Brass masterclass is indeed only available for pre-order customers.

We watched the clip back and Tom misspoke when mentioning it would be available later, as he meant to say the recorded version would be made available later for pre-orderers after the live session. Hope this clears up the issue!

Best,

OT


----------



## blue5

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I just wanted to give you a brief update on where we are with the SINE development. We’ve seen some discussion here and we don’t want you to think we’re ignoring you!
> 
> We’re still working on the update. We’ve fixed a lot of issues over the past few weeks that will improve stability and performance e.g. the hanging notes issue. Unfortunately, while working on the update, we ran into another issue that prevents us from getting our new update through the new notarization standards for Mac OS Catalina. Hence the delay.
> 
> Our plan is to get this update released ASAP. When all fixes are in, we go to QA, then do a regression test, and if all goes well, we’re ready to go. I can assure you we’re working with everything we’ve got on the upcoming SINE version, and we want to make sure the update is 100% ready when we release it.
> 
> Thanks to all of you who’ve been reporting bugs to our support—it really does help. And thanks for both your patience, and your understanding.
> 
> All the best,
> Hendrik



Thanks!


----------



## fish_hoof

Was finishing a piece of music and noticed that my JXL Sustain+legato patches crackle when I use the mod wheel.... I have a Mac Pro, 48gb ram... ssd's... its not a crackle like performance, it sounds almost like a digital crackling in the audio..... anyone else experience this?


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

fish_hoof said:


> Was finishing a piece of music and noticed that my JXL Sustain+legato patches crackle when I use the mod wheel.... I have a Mac Pro, 48gb ram... ssd's... its not a crackle like performance, it sounds almost like a digital crackling in the audio..... anyone else experience this?



I’ve got this as well. Hope that it gets sorted out with the next update


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I say we March on apple and end this Catalina once and for all


----------



## richardt4520

Not having any stuck notes, but attempting to load a saved preset in SINE, no matter if it was saved by the Steinberg preset manager or by the Save button in the Sine GUI, it locks up Cubase 10.5 to the point that I have to completely reboot my PC. I can kill Cubase but it's locked up to the point that the graphics are jacked when I reopen Cubase and no audio, even though Cubase.exe process was killed. I haven't read the whole thread to see if this is a known issue but it's definitely a time waster. Other than that, it's a pretty cool app. Roped me into buying a couple of instruments already


----------



## ProfoundSilence

richardt4520 said:


> Not having any stuck notes, but attempting to load a saved preset in SINE, no matter if it was saved by the Steinberg preset manager or by the Save button in the Sine GUI, it locks up Cubase 10.5 to the point that I have to completely reboot my PC. I can kill Cubase but it's locked up to the point that the graphics are jacked when I reopen Cubase and no audio, even though Cubase.exe process was killed. I haven't read the whole thread to see if this is a known issue but it's definitely a time waster. Other than that, it's a pretty cool app. Roped me into buying a couple of instruments already


hmm

have you tried saving them on the standalone sine player?


----------



## richardt4520

ProfoundSilence said:


> hmm
> 
> have you tried saving them on the standalone sine player?


I didn't because i was balancing the instruments in the mix. I wanted to bring it up premixed in a different but similar project. I could probably try that but the issue was with loading, not saving unfortunately. Worth a try though.


----------



## José Herring

It's been working well enough for me. I only have the tbones for the moment though. 

I did have my first VEPro crash in like 5 years but I can't blame that on Sine. Though it is the only new plugin that I've been using. But, still. Could have been anything. 

For the most part, I think Sine is light years ahead of where many other dedicated players were when they were first released. There's going to be a learning curve for OT for sure. Part of the reason that I don't want to invest in too many libraries with their own player.


----------



## jcrosby

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> We’re still working on the update. We’ve fixed a lot of issues over the past few weeks that will improve stability and performance e.g. the hanging notes issue. Unfortunately, while working on the update, we ran into another issue that prevents us from getting our new update through the new notarization standards for Mac OS Catalina. Hence the delay.



Leave it to good old Apple to throw a monkey wrench in the works 

Anyway thanks for the update Henrik.


----------



## JohnG

Like @josejherring I only have the trombone solo, but it's working fine here on Windows 10 in VE Pro on a satellite (slave) PC, with only one instance of VE Pro. SINE is in its own "channel." No problems.

It's oddly similar to the Spitfire player, both in terms of advantages and things I wish were different!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

JohnG said:


> Like @josejherring I only have the trombone solo, but it's working fine here on Windows 10 in VE Pro on a satellite (slave) PC, with only one instance of VE Pro. SINE is in its own "channel." No problems.
> 
> It's oddly similar to the Spitfire player, both in terms of advantages and things I wish were different!



a good microphone mix down is absolutely worth exploring,


----------



## Eptesicus

josejherring said:


> I did have my first VEPro crash in like 5 years but I can't blame that on Sine. Though it is the only new plugin that I've been using. But, still. Could have been anything.



First crash in 5 years only after introducing SINE which is proving to be quite unstable for a lot of people?

I think it was SINE...


----------



## Thundercat

Props to OT for staying active here and communicating status! Should be the norm but rare these days! (Apple! Tsk tsk tsk!).


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I just can't get over the punch

This is 4+4 horns(a4's playing two different parts) and a3 +a3 bass bones 8vb on accents. 

was more or less one of my tests trying to decide if im going to go BWW revive or legacy with my JXL template


----------



## AlainTH

Thundercat said:


> Props to OT for staying active here and communicating status! Should be the norm but rare these days! (Apple! Tsk tsk tsk!).


commincating is ok when action is ok first


----------



## Dominik

Eptesicus said:


> First crash in 5 years only after introducing SINE which is proving to be quite unstable for a lot of people?
> 
> I think it was SINE...


Seems like this thread came back to reality after lots of hype. I was one of the first to purchase JXL Brass and I had issues from the start until now. Blaming that on my system I first bought a new PC and then set up the old one as slave for VEPro. 
I set up a complete JXL Brass Template in VEPro and today I can´t start it anymore. VEPro goes up on 99% RAM usage even though I did my setup with around 90 %. Even with removing some instances it always goes up to 99% RAM usage and crashes VEPro. CPU power goes up to 100%. 

I also did some perfomance comparison.
I testet how many stereo streams I can run with VEPro with JXL Brass and in comparison with Berlin Brass. Berlin Brass was able to stream 36 stereo streams without crackings and JXL Brass only 16. This can however be related to the issue with VEPro and Sine. 

I am beginning to lose patience. I read that a new update is coming but I never experienced note hangings so I hope that it also adresses all the other issues I experience. 

One last test I will do. I will reinstall Windows on my slave to exclude some other possible software issues.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Dominik said:


> Seems like this thread came back to reality after lots of hype. I was one of the first to purchase JXL Brass and I had issues from the start until now. Blaming that on my system I first bought a new PC and then set up the old one as slave for VEPro.
> I set up a complete JXL Brass Template in VEPro and today I can´t start it anymore. VEPro goes up on 99% RAM usage even though I did my setup with around 90 %. Even with removing some instances it always goes up to 99% RAM usage and crashes VEPro. CPU power goes up to 100%.
> 
> I also did some perfomance comparison.
> I testet how many stereo streams I can run with VEPro with JXL Brass and in comparison with Berlin Brass. Berlin Brass was able to stream 36 stereo streams without crackings and JXL Brass only 16. This can however be related to the issue with VEPro and Sine.
> 
> I am beginning to lose patience. I read that a new update is coming but I never experienced note hangings so I hope that it also adresses all the other issues I experience.
> 
> One last test I will do. I will reinstall Windows on my slave to exclude some other possible software issues.


You should try breaking SINE up into separate VEP frames, one for each section. That way you don't run into that 99% issue. Also worth nothing, there are more dynamic layers involved here - so there is a lot more it needs to stream from disk(thus if you are getting crackles you should adjust your preload buffer for DFD within sine). Also worth noting, some users experience an issue where if they left the sine windows open before saving it would crash when they tried to open their project back up. Might be what happened to your JXL VEpro template - if I was a betting man i'd assume it's because the first sine instance that opens is the one that tries to connect your licenses/browser - and if you have more than one open maybe that cause some unexpected behavior?

I'm curious how much ram your VEPRo machine has - I assume you're running more than JXL on it? Are you trying to run a ton of microphones? or did you just use an older machine with like 16/32gb?

I think when I loaded every instrument/articulation into sine with 1 mic it was ~12 gb?

I Have the first world problem of wanting to figure out the best string library to complement JXL sonically, but I do feel bad for the users who haven't been so lucky when it came to sine. I *happened* to have reformatted this winter anyways, and truth be told I don't have half my stuff re-installed at this point.


----------



## Eptesicus

Dominik said:


> Seems like this thread came back to reality after lots of hype. I was one of the first to purchase JXL Brass and I had issues from the start until now. Blaming that on my system I first bought a new PC and then set up the old one as slave for VEPro.
> I set up a complete JXL Brass Template in VEPro and today I can´t start it anymore. VEPro goes up on 99% RAM usage even though I did my setup with around 90 %. Even with removing some instances it always goes up to 99% RAM usage and crashes VEPro. CPU power goes up to 100%.
> 
> I also did some perfomance comparison.
> I testet how many stereo streams I can run with VEPro with JXL Brass and in comparison with Berlin Brass. Berlin Brass was able to stream 36 stereo streams without crackings and JXL Brass only 16. This can however be related to the issue with VEPro and Sine.
> 
> I am beginning to lose patience. I read that a new update is coming but I never experienced note hangings so I hope that it also adresses all the other issues I experience.
> 
> One last test I will do. I will reinstall Windows on my slave to exclude some other possible software issues.




Yeh. It is a good library sound wise and SINE player is actually very nice.

However, they MUST get the stability sorted out as a priority. It should be no.1 on any developers list. Stability first, everything else second. You could have the greatest sample player in the world, but if it crashes all the time, no one will want to use it.

Hopefully once the stability is sorted, and some of the bugs in the actual library are sorted (some dodgy out of tune stuff here and there and the horns A6 legato being broken) it will really be a great library.

Here is hoping for some free expansions/new articulations too at some point in the future, to reward our faith in pre-ordering such an expensive library with a new player!


----------



## Dominik

ProfoundSilence said:


> You should try breaking SINE up into separate VEP frames, one for each section. That way you don't run into that 99% issue. Also worth nothing, there are more dynamic layers involved here - so there is a lot more it needs to stream from disk(thus if you are getting crackles you should adjust your preload buffer for DFD within sine). Also worth noting, some users experience an issue where if they left the sine windows open before saving it would crash when they tried to open their project back up. Might be what happened to your JXL VEpro template - if I was a betting man i'd assume it's because the first sine instance that opens is the one that tries to connect your licenses/browser - and if you have more than one open maybe that cause some unexpected behavior?
> 
> I'm curious how much ram your VEPRo machine has - I assume you're running more than JXL on it? Are you trying to run a ton of microphones? or did you just use an older machine with like 16/32gb?
> 
> I think when I loaded every instrument/articulation into sine with 1 mic it was ~12 gb?
> 
> I Have the first world problem of wanting to figure out the best string library to complement JXL sonically, but I do feel bad for the users who haven't been so lucky when it came to sine. I *happened* to have reformatted this winter anyways, and truth be told I don't have half my stuff re-installed at this point.


Hi and many thanks for your detailed answer. 
First of all, I searched the manual and couldn´t find any reference to "frames". I don´t know what that is. 
To make it more clear. I run 14 instances inside VEPro. Each instance contains the complete articulations of one section. I do it like that because I want to work with instrument tracks. I know that in theory the performance is not as well as if you work with less instances but I won´t accept another workflow because I don´t seperate composing and mixing and instrument tracks are the only way to have midi and audio combined in Cubase. 
But as I said, with Berlin Brass and Kontakt this is no issue. The other thing you mentioned is definitely true. I left all windows open. The weird thing is that when VEPro starts all windows are closed. 

To answer your questions:
I only run JXLBrass on an i7 7700k machine with 64 GB RAM. With all sections and articulations I can only run four mic mixes until memory is completely filled. Maybe I have to tweak DFD. however since there is no manual for Sine to my knowledge I didn´t want to mess with settings.


----------



## Dominik

Eptesicus said:


> Yeh. It is a good library sound wise and SINE player is actually very nice.
> 
> However, they MUST get the stability sorted out as a priority. It should be no.1 on any developers list. Stability first, everything else second. You could have the greatest sample player in the world, but if it crashes all the time, no one will want to use it.
> 
> Hopefully once the stability is sorted, and some of the bugs in the actual library are sorted (some dodgy out of tune stuff here and there and the horns A6 legato being broken) it will really be a great library.
> 
> Here is hoping for some free expansions/new articulations too at some point in the future, to reward our faith in pre-ordering such an expensive library with a new player!


Some compensation would be appreciated regarding the many days now that I have messed around with JXL Brass to get it to run properly.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Dominik said:


> Hi and many thanks for your detailed answer.
> First of all, I searched the manual and couldn´t find any reference to "frames". I don´t know what that is.
> To make it more clear. I run 14 instances inside VEPro. Each instance contains the complete articulations of one section. I do it like that because I want to work with instrument tracks. I know that in theory the performance is not as well as if you work with less instances but I won´t accept another workflow because I don´t seperate composing and mixing and instrument tracks are the only way to have midi and audio combined in Cubase.
> But as I said, with Berlin Brass and Kontakt this is no issue. The other thing you mentioned is definitely true. I left all windows open. The weird thing is that when VEPro starts all windows are closed.
> 
> To answer your questions:
> I only run JXLBrass on an i7 7700k machine with 64 GB RAM. With all sections and articulations I can only run four mic mixes until memory is completely filled. Maybe I have to tweak DFD. however since there is no manual for Sine to my knowledge I didn´t want to mess with settings.




ahh its the same as play/synchron/kontakt really - DFD buffer is needed when you're accessing large sample sets like that. The soundside it that it'll load more into ram proportionally, so it's best to find the sweet spot where you're just barely outside the realm of crackling. 

if 4 mics isn't required for your workflow, and you're just trying to get the sound(i.e. if you're not actually sending 4 stereo signals back to the daw) then you could mix it down to 1 or 2. I've personally decided to build my template based on 2(close blend + ambient blend) so that I can simply automate how much close or room I as I go. You could alternatively mix your blend down to 1 mic and leave the other ones off while writing(so it would take 1/4 the time to load/ram usage/drive usage). Then when you go to print stems you just re-enable the 4 mics and mute the mixed one. That's how I plan on using sine in the future when more OT libraries support it. 

Especially drive usage, I've found that even if I had ram to spare - legato patches using 4+ mics on berlin brass in tutti would break up because of the massive amount of samples one drive has to provide at that speed with all the legato transitions /ect. 






I had made this graphic to show somebody else with a similar issue where the DFD setting is.


----------



## Dominik

ProfoundSilence said:


> ahh its the same as play/synchron/kontakt really - DFD buffer is needed when you're accessing large sample sets like that. The soundside it that it'll load more into ram proportionally, so it's best to find the sweet spot where you're just barely outside the realm of crackling.
> 
> if 4 mics isn't required for your workflow, and you're just trying to get the sound(i.e. if you're not actually sending 4 stereo signals back to the daw) then you could mix it down to 1 or 2. I've personally decided to build my template based on 2(close blend + ambient blend) so that I can simply automate how much close or room I as I go. You could alternatively mix your blend down to 1 mic and leave the other ones off while writing(so it would take 1/4 the time to load/ram usage/drive usage). Then when you go to print stems you just re-enable the 4 mics and mute the mixed one. That's how I plan on using sine in the future when more OT libraries support it.
> 
> Especially drive usage, I've found that even if I had ram to spare - legato patches using 4+ mics on berlin brass in tutti would break up because of the massive amount of samples one drive has to provide at that speed with all the legato transitions /ect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had made this graphic to show somebody else with a similar issue where the DFD setting is.


Well thanks again. I think I can reduce it a little. I stream from an Samsung 970 Evo. 

Normally I wouldn´t require four mics but with VEPro you have to plan for the future and be as flexible as possible with your template because you can´t change it later without making it really complex to work with. At best my template will stay unchanged for ever.... 
I use the folowing mics: Mid, AMJXLClose, AMJXLTree and AMJXLRoom. I don´t want to mix them down to one because the sound will change according to the kind of music I do. I mix them insideVEPro however so over LAN there is only one stereo stream per Instance. I have set up some controllers so I can level the mics via automation if neccessary. I hope this setup is flexible enough to work with it for a long time. 

Regarding Legato patches. I know that they are demanding but what I said should be understood in comparison to other libs like in my case Berlin Brass. I can play 12 instances at the same time with legato on with that.


----------



## Eptesicus

Just had a quick go at mocking up (from the score) a small brass focused passage from HTTYD with JXL brass



EDIT - added pretty much everything but woodwind


----------



## jamwerks

Dominik said:


> Seems like this thread came back to reality after lots of hype.


Are you in contact with their support service?


----------



## Eptesicus

One thing you do have to give them credit for is the cpu usage. I mean seriously, you can have a whole brass section going at it and the vst performance meter barely moves.


----------



## Fitz

Does anyone else get endless clicks and pops with this library? Love the sound but the samples jsut keep dropping out. I have a fast computer slave too...

Any fixes for this until OT pushes a fix? I even noticed that JXL had them when he was doing his masterclass.


----------



## Eptesicus

Fitz said:


> Does anyone else get endless clicks and pops with this library? Love the sound but the samples jsut keep dropping out. I have a fast computer slave too...
> 
> Any fixes for this until OT pushes a fix? I even noticed that JXL had them when he was doing his masterclass.




No, this is one issue i dont have fortunately! I have 64gb of fast ram and the library is housed on an nvme drive so I would hope streaming wouldn't be an issue. What drive do you have yours on?

I suspect anything like this is a disk or ram issue, as the cpu usage seems to be tiny.


----------



## Fitz

Eptesicus said:


> No, this is one issue i dont have fortunately! I have 64gb of fast ram and the library is housed on an nvme drive so I would hope streaming wouldn't be an issue. What drive do you have yours on?
> 
> I suspect anything like this is a disk or ram issue, as the cpu usage seems to be tiny.


Same disk same RAM as you. I mean my template is full up with other stuff running on the same computer but this shouldnt be an issue.


----------



## Eptesicus

Fitz said:


> Same disk same RAM as you. I mean my template is full up with other stuff running on the same computer but this shouldnt be an issue.



Weird. Do the pops and clicks only happen when everything else is playing at the same time?


----------



## Thundercat

Eptesicus said:


> Here is hoping for some free expansions/new articulations too at some point in the future, to reward our faith in pre-ordering such an expensive library with a new player!


I thought that was the point of the £300 discount off the normal list price?


----------



## shawnsingh

Hi all, pro tip for anyone that does want to use the trumpets in a more traditional orchestra setting.

I just experimented with swapping L/R channels on the trumpets, and sure enough, it actually does position the trumpets towards the right which would help it match a lot of other more "Traditional positioned" in situ sample libraries.

I also experimented with (level) panning the tree, while keeping AB mic unpanned, and that seemed to help too, and doing it within limits still very much keeps the nice sense of space from those mic positions.

I think a combination of both of those techniques, plus tone-matching EQ as desired, should likely get JXL trumpets to be able to reasonably match other libraries - for me, in particular Berlin Brass.

Cheers!


----------



## Eptesicus

Thundercat said:


> I thought that was the point of the £300 discount off the normal list price?



Sorry, I worded that badly. I mean owing to many of the issues many have had. 

Regardless, it would be nice to have a free update anyway


----------



## jamwerks

Eptesicus said:


> Regardless, it would be nice to have a free update anyway


300 euros discount plus a free library (Layers) is pretty generous imo (and probably all you'll get).


----------



## Eptesicus

jamwerks said:


> 300 euros discount plus a free library (Layers) is pretty generous imo (and probably all you'll get).



Lol...

You know what isn't generous?

Selling a 500 euro brass library that hasn't worked properly for many people for 2 months...

What is with this place? Some of you people are really bad at being consumers/customers. I'm quite confused as to why some feel like they need to stick up for the developers so much, even when it is unwarranted.

Also, why would you NOT want them to release a free update/expansion (as this is what a lot of developers do anyway for their expensive libraries (ie project sam)).


----------



## ProfoundSilence

because they are other artists, trying to make tools to make our lives easier/music sound better. 

it's not a factory, or an assembly line... it's not a bunch of suits and shareholders. 

software like a game isn't so bad because it's an enclosed ecosystem, but software for music creation adds tons of software that is constantly speaking to each other. and instead of two companies with video cards/drivers to be compatible. compare that interface brands, and the immense variety in function and form that they come in vs video cards. 

either way, like I said it's just a different industry. we are a VERY niche clientele and there arent ample people to test any new software, so most of us are just realistic about it. 

hendrik = great composer
sascha = great composer
tobias = great composer
maxim = great composer
Tom Holken... something ... = some guy who made some music once. you've probably never heard of him. 

youll find most of us who have been around for a few years have a VERY different attitude towards developers, many of them were users before they were developers


----------



## Eptesicus

ProfoundSilence said:


> because they are other artists, trying to make tools to make our lives easier/music sound better.
> 
> it's not a factory, or an assembly line... it's not a bunch of suits and shareholders.
> 
> software like a game isn't so bad because it's an enclosed ecosystem, but software for music creation adds tons of software that is constantly speaking to each other. and instead of two companies with video cards/drivers to be compatible. compare that interface brands, and the immense variety in function and form that they come in vs video cards.
> 
> either way, like I said it's just a different industry. we are a VERY niche clientele and there arent ample people to test any new software, so most of us are just realistic about it.
> 
> hendrik = great composer
> sascha = great composer
> tobias = great composer
> maxim = great composer
> Tom Holken... something ... = some guy who made some music once. you've probably never heard of him.
> 
> youll find most of us who have been around for a few years have a VERY different attitude towards developers, many of them were users before they were developers




I have no doubt they are decent and very talented people. I dont think anyone is doubting their character or talent.

That should not shield them from genuine criticism , and is meaningless to those who have spent a lot of money on a product that is causing them frustration and issues.

I'm not really interested in the excuses. Releasing a flawed product and then just saying " oh , well software development is hard and we dont have many people to test things, so tough" simply doesnt fly with me. Get it right, then release it.

This was 500 euro even at its lowest price, which is a lot of money for most.

This wasnt a cheap library from a tiny outfit. This was an expensive flagship library made by one of the biggest players in the game and endorsed by a Hollywood composer. We should expect and demand better.

As a consumer, it's a very dangerous game to be so forgiving. As a consumer we should all be as demanding as possible to raise standards.


----------



## AlainTH

yes it is a lot of money, so the soft has to be functionnal, final point


----------



## jamwerks

We all knew it's a 1.0 version of their player. It's a given that it won't work perfectly for all as of day one. But I get the impression that it's working well for most.


----------



## AlainTH

yes it seems you are some to 'get this impression' and answer for the real responsibles


----------



## jcrosby

jamwerks said:


> But I get the impression that it's working well for most.


Not sure I agree. This thread is 90 pages deep. And each page is filled with people complaining about crippling stability issues. Many, including myself have pulled it from templates because projects either fail to open or are super crashy when using it. I'm also seeing just as many people on windows having issues as on mac with similar bugs so these issues are OS agnostic.


----------



## Nico2020

Eptesicus said:


> Releasing a flawed product and then just saying " oh , well software development is hard and we dont have many people to test things, so tough" simply doesnt fly with me. Get it right, then release it.
> 
> This was 500 euro even at its lowest price, which is a lot of money for most.



Yes, exactly. I can't understand why they decided to release such a broken product at such a high price, 
and why they invested so much marketing effort into driving people into buying a broken product (they're just upsetting a lot of people who won't be buying from them in the future!!). And once problem reports started flowing in, I can't understand why they waited months to do anything about the situation. Indeed you could claim they still haven't done anything about it other than telling people they're working on it.

It does show that in this industry you really can't trust the marketing hype, and that the price is a very poor indicator of quality. Some vendors simply overprice their products regardless of the quality, and release very expensive products before they are ready for release.



> As a consumer, it's a very dangerous game to be so forgiving. As a consumer we should all be as demanding as possible to raise standards.



Yes. On the other hand, forum discussions (often dominated by fan boys of this or that company) might not be a good indication of consumer forgiveness. I suspect that Orchestral Tools has seriously damaged their reputation, and burnt a lot of their loyal customer base, with such a poor product at such a high price. I bought a lot of their products in the past, and won't in the future.


----------



## AlainTH

I suspect that Orchestral Tools has seriously damaged their reputation, and burnt a lot of their loyal customer base, with such a poor product at such a high price. I bought a lot of their products in the past, and won't in the future.


Nico2020 said:


> Yes, exactly. I can't understand why they decided to release such a broken product at such a high price,
> and why they invested so much marketing effort into driving people into buying a broken product
> 
> 
> Yes. On the other hand, forum discussions (often dominated by fan boys of this or that company) might not be a good indication of consumer forgiveness. I suspect that Orchestral Tools has seriously damaged their reputation, and burnt a lot of their loyal customer base, with such a poor product at such a high price. I bought a lot of their products in the past, and won't in the future.


Bravo


----------



## Loïc D

AlainTH said:


> I suspect that Orchestral Tools has seriously damaged their reputation, and burnt a lot of their loyal customer base, with such a poor product at such a high price.



Hmmm, I wouldn’t bet on this.
They have released a great library with a very promising player, yet very unstable. Nothing a few patches can’t fix (or a few assistants for bigger studios).
Their new business model providing separate instruments is IMHO very good : you can bet a lot of ppl will buy those Arks choirs when it’s released.
They have big names endorsement, and a lot of respect from the industry.

And TBH the library is not so pricey compared to the money I spent 20 years ago on more-than-average-not-really-achieved-never-updated libraries...

I wish they thrive to grow their support and certainly don’t want to curse them or accuse them to be incompetent or irresponsible.

Call me a Yes Man, but I always prefer to support editors when they struggle to fix stuff.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

cant easily fix bad samples, but you can fix a bad player.


----------



## Raphioli

AlainTH said:


> I suspect that Orchestral Tools has seriously damaged their reputation, and burnt a lot of their loyal customer base, with such a poor product at such a high price.



I don't think they've seriously damaged their reputation at all.

As long as they fix bugs both for the player and the library (still waiting for that legato bug fix for the 6FH) in a *timely manner*, I think they won't damage their reputation.
Most important thing is that they don't leave bugs unfixed.

I know some other devs just leaving bugs in their libraries even after several years, and there was even a thread about it (which I wouldn't go in to in this thread since it off topic).
That type of thing *will* damage reputation. 
Especially with the internet and SNS, good/bad reputation spreads really fast.


----------



## AlainTH

as long as..


----------



## Uiroo

ProfoundSilence said:


> cant easily fix bad samples, but you can fix a bad player.


I think the opposite is true.
For me it seems obvious that developing a player and getting rid of all the bugs is a MASSIVE undertaking that East West, Spitfire and now Orchestral Tools have quite a hard time dealing with. 

At the same time, re-recording is expensive, but with good documentation (which they definitely have if they plan on extending the library) I don't see the problem, I'd consider it relatively easy.
And since they plan on extening the library (if I got that right), they'll book the hall again at some point, so why not re-record some notes?


----------



## purple

People who have had some time with Berlin Brass AND JXL. How do they stack up? Would you buy both, one or the other? What are the strengths and weaknesses of each?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

good question. 

I prefer JXL at this point. it does feel more consistent but I'll always miss seperate players. 

if you really compose more "classical" style pieces berlin would be the easy answer. 

If you do more or less modern composing, I think JXL edges out. dynamic range is greater by a lot, but it's missing real crescendos. I also prefer the note lengths of marcatos of BB but both are good. 

a4 horns in JXL is better imo
a3 trumpets in BB is better imo
a3 trombones in JXL is better imo
tuba is about the same but greater dynamic range in JXL, so I'd probably say JXL is better

the cimbassi and bass bones are effing JUICY and are better than ark 1 brass

the a12 horns obviously smoke ark 1 horns. 
the a6 trumpets obviously smoke the a4 ark 1 trumpets 

so basically you get an on par or mostly superior BB sections with JXL, bit without individual players. But you ALSO get ark 1 style brass but in more dynamic layers than BB and similar amounts of articulations

to me it seems like the bridge that connects the two, because you could use them together with either bb or ark 1


----------



## purple

ProfoundSilence said:


> good question.
> 
> I prefer JXL at this point. it does feel more consistent but I'll always miss seperate players.
> 
> if you really compose more "classical" style pieces berlin would be the easy answer.
> 
> If you do more or less modern composing, I think JXL edges out. dynamic range is greater by a lot, but it's missing real crescendos. I also prefer the note lengths of marcatos of BB but both are good.
> 
> a4 horns in JXL is better imo
> a3 trumpets in BB is better imo
> a3 trombones in JXL is better imo
> tuba is about the same but greater dynamic range in JXL, so I'd probably say JXL is better
> 
> the cimbassi and bass bones are effing JUICY and are better than ark 1 brass
> 
> the a12 horns obviously smoke ark 1 horns.
> the a6 trumpets obviously smoke the a4 ark 1 trumpets
> 
> so basically you get an on par or mostly superior BB sections with JXL, bit without individual players. But you ALSO get ark 1 style brass but in more dynamic layers than BB and similar amounts of articulations
> 
> to me it seems like the bridge that connects the two, because you could use them together with either bb or ark 1


Maybe I need both then. I might wait for the a-la-carte berlin brass and then buy whatever sections i need from both.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

purple said:


> Maybe I need both then. I might wait for the a-la-carte berlin brass and then buy whatever sections i need from both.


if I had to buy one the obvious answer is JXL. 

there was a video where I used BB trumpets with a4 from JXLB


----------



## purple

ProfoundSilence said:


> if I had to buy one the obvious answer is JXL.
> 
> there was a video where I used BB trumpets with a4 from JXLB


I do need the individual players of the berlin series a lot, but having really powerful sections would probably have a quicker effect on how the listener enjoys the music. (The loudest most bombastic moments are what are likely to stick in the average audience member's head when it comes to how good the score was)


----------



## shawnsingh

+1 to what @ProfoundSilence has said. I'd also add that JXL is ever so slightly drier, presumably because they used wide orientation of Teldex. But other than that the (natural) tree mic positions match nearly perfectly out of the box. I found that swapping L/R channels on trumpets positions then to the right to match Berlin Brass as well.

I'm happy to have both. I like having the individual players as a core, and with JXL for the super aggressive layers as needed, a more beefy low end section, and generally just a different option that matches extremely well.

If your music endeavors have deadlines and time pressure (I don't), JXL is far better. You'll be able to get great midi programmed results much quicker with less fiddling. I don't mean to say that Berlin Brass is fiddly, but you wouldn't be using it to its fullest potential of you didn't spend more time to program each individual player and to experiment more with substituting articulations.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

shawnsingh said:


> +1 to what @ProfoundSilence has said. I'd also add that JXL is ever so slightly drier, presumably because they used wide orientation of Teldex. But other than that the (natural) tree mic positions match nearly perfectly out of the box. I found that swapping L/R channels on trumpets positions then to the right to match Berlin Brass as well.
> 
> I'm happy to have both. I like having the individual players as a core, and with JXL for the super aggressive layers as needed, a more beefy low end section, and generally just a different option that matches extremely well.
> 
> If you're music endeavors have deadlines and time pressure (I don't), JXL is far better. You'll be able to get great midi programmed results much quicker with less fiddling. I don't mean to say that Berlin Brass is fiddly, but you wouldn't be using it to its fullest potential of you didn't spend more time to program each individual player and to experiment more with substituting articulations.




the sustains/legato in BB are not nearly the same dynamic, which is why JXL is easier to work with. changing articulations doesn't involve wild CC or velocity changes. 

I just use a little panning with the trumpets because the trumpets were recorded center IIRC


----------



## richardt4520

I know they're a small company, and the quality of sound of their libraries is amazing. In the last week I've bought Berlin Woodwinds and ExpA, and Berlin Harps. As far as SINE, I've also purchased JXL trumpets a3, a6, trombones a3, a6, and tuba, of which I've been unable to use much due to it crashing projects and forcing me to reboot. I'm sure they're hard at work on it but hopefully the update will come soon that will resolve some of these issues. I really like the sound of it since it blends so well with my other libraries.


----------



## jonathanwright

Quick question for those of you already using this.

I already have all the ARK's. Is there much benefit in grabbing the '12 Horns' patch, over using the Horns a9 in Ark?


----------



## Alex Niedt

jonathanwright said:


> Quick question for those of you already using this.
> 
> I already have all the ARK's. Is there much benefit in grabbing the '12 Horns' patch, over using the Horns a9 in Ark?


If your goal is huge, blasting sound at the top of the instruments' dynamic range, JXL Horns a12 will honestly blow Ark 1 Horns a9 out of the water.


----------



## jonathanwright

Alex Niedt said:


> If your goal is huge, blasting sound at the top of the instruments' dynamic range, JXL Horns a12 will honestly blow Ark 1 Horns a9 out of the water.



Just grabbed the Horns a12, crikey, you're right!


----------



## Waywyn

jonathanwright said:


> Just grabbed the Horns a12, crikey, you're right!



After a few months of working with JXL Brass, I can safely say that the lib sounds that huge, I have to dial back the volume otherwise it "eats up" every other instrument in terms of density, impact, and sound. Even though I have a mixture of AMXL mics loaded I mostly use the tree only.

I never want to miss it again!


----------



## sIR dORT

I need some good bones to write chords with, and I'm torn between the solo tbone (orchestration-wise makes more sense and can sometimes sound better due to less thickness) or the a3 bones (more power and useful for lead lines, but my only hesitation is if it sounds too thick when writing 3 note chords). Thoughts on this?


----------



## Waywyn

sIR dORT said:


> I need some good bones to write chords with, and I'm torn between the solo tbone (orchestration-wise makes more sense and can sometimes sound better due to less thickness) or the a3 bones (more power and useful for lead lines, but my only hesitation is if it sounds too thick when writing 3 note chords). Thoughts on this?



Tbh even if you use the 12 bones and writing e.g. triads it doesn't sound muddy or too dense.


----------



## shawnsingh

sIR dORT said:


> I need some good bones to write chords with, and I'm torn between the solo tbone (orchestration-wise makes more sense and can sometimes sound better due to less thickness) or the a3 bones (more power and useful for lead lines, but my only hesitation is if it sounds too thick when writing 3 note chords). Thoughts on this?


I agree it won't sound to dense, but it will likely sound very different... And that could be enough to sway you one way or another. So you might want to try finding examples of the bones to evaluate and decide. I did make a comparison somewhere on this thread which might help, I can try to whip up another quick comparison tonight.


----------



## shawnsingh

sIR dORT said:


> I need some good bones to write chords with, and I'm torn between the solo tbone (orchestration-wise makes more sense and can sometimes sound better due to less thickness) or the a3 bones (more power and useful for lead lines, but my only hesitation is if it sounds too thick when writing 3 note chords). Thoughts on this?



Attached a comparison.

one phrase in octaves, another phrase in triads.

0:00 - 0:12 - Berlin Brass, trombone 1 + trombone 2 playing divisi in octaves. the crescendo is a dynamics sample, not a CC xfade.
0:13 - 0:25 - Berlin Brass, trombone 1 + trombone 2 + bass trombone playing divisi triads.

0:26 - 0:38 - JXL solo trombone in octaves
0:38 - 0:51 - JXL solo trombone in triads

0:52 - 1:04 - JXL a3 trombone in octaves
1:04 - 1:17 - JXL a3 trombone in triads

everything used (natural) decca tree only.

please do ignore some of the MIDI programming imperfections. But still as you can hear, the a3 trombones are quite tight, but they do become a bit diffuse and thick for bigger swells and accents. But in quieter places, that thicker feeling might actually be desirable even if the intention was to sound natural divisi.


----------



## coprhead6

shawnsingh said:


> 0:26 - 0:38 - JXL solo trombone in octaves
> 0:38 - 0:51 - JXL solo trombone in triads



This sounds particularly great to my ears. The dynamic swell really worked here! The transposition trick with some slight panning might make unison passages even better...

The a3 bits have a bit too much room bite with the tree mic (it’s probably so freaking loud in the studio). With the right mix, they would sound incredible.

I bought the Solo Trombone last week and I’m quite pleased. Thanks for showing how this compares with Berlin Brass!


----------



## Consona

Some new good demos, guys?


----------



## Drundfunk

I'd also like to hear some more demos. Especially a comparison between JXLB and CSB would be great (between the comparable sections and dynamics obviously). Preferably within a piece. Also in general the lower dynamics interest me a little bit more than the loud ones. Well, hoping to hear more soon.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Using similar a2-a4 tenor trombone patches from various brass libraries - I used the same midi data with a rough volume match. Some of the louder more aggressive libraries are pushed back a little, because they would end up being a good bit louder. I used only 1 mic from each, generally being a Decca Tree or similar, with no reverb(except Chris Hein, which would probably sound dreadful without it) It's lower E's in octave and it's a smooth ride from cc1 1-127, with a brief pause on 127 followed by a brief silence.

Libraries used in order:
Spitfire Symphonic Brass
Cinebrass Core
Modern Scoring
Brass Berlin Brass
Chris Hein Orchestral Brass
Junkie XL Brass

This should give a good indication on the number of true dynamic layers as well as how well the crossfades are handled.


----------



## [email protected]

Wow! Cool comparison - I think I liked Cinebrass, Cinematic Studio Brass and JXL-Brass the best.


----------



## jonathanwright

I've only used the a12 Horns so far, but I have to say they're the smoothest I've ever used, with an amazing range.

Already replaced pretty much every other library when I need 'that' sound.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

[email protected] said:


> Wow! Cool comparison - I think I liked Cinebrass, Cinematic Studio Brass and JXL-Brass the best.



I think cinebrass and CSB are pretty interesting to compare - given a 2020 purchase wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to pay full price for cinebrass at all, but when CSB came out it took me a while because despite the raving reviews, seemed like a sidegrade from cinebrass in many ways.


----------



## [email protected]

I am still thinking about purchasing Cinebrass since I would get it with 50% off due to the Edu discount. At the moment I own the complete VSL-Brass (VI) as well as JXL. Would be nice to have something "in between" i. e. wet but not hyped


----------



## ProfoundSilence

[email protected] said:


> I am still thinking about purchasing Cinebrass since I would get it with 50% off due to the Edu discount. At the moment I own the complete VSL-Brass (VI) as well as JXL. Would be nice to have something "in between" i. e. wet but not hyped




? literally just use the non-processed mics, no reason to spend money


----------



## [email protected]

So you would say Cinebrass and/or CSB would add nothing "relevant" to my brass collection?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

[email protected] said:


> So you would say Cinebrass and/or CSB would add nothing "relevant" to my brass collection?


you're not gaining much from either, no. CSB has a2 trombones and a2 trumpets - I guess that's nice... and the articulations are more consistent with JXL's in a way - but that's about it. 

Cinebrass has a great tone


----------



## [email protected]

To be honest, "great tone" is for me an argument to consider spending some money.


----------



## jbuhler

ProfoundSilence said:


> Using similar a2-a4 tenor trombone patches from various brass libraries - I used the same midi data with a rough volume match. Some of the louder more aggressive libraries are pushed back a little, because they would end up being a good bit louder. I used only 1 mic from each, generally being a Decca Tree or similar, with no reverb(except Chris Hein, which would probably sound dreadful without it) It's lower E's in octave and it's a smooth ride from cc1 1-127, with a brief pause on 127 followed by a brief silence.
> 
> Libraries used in order:
> Spitfire Symphonic Brass
> Cinebrass Core
> Modern Scoring
> Brass Berlin Brass
> Chris Hein Orchestral Brass
> Junkie XL Brass
> 
> This should give a good indication on the number of true dynamic layers as well as how well the crossfades are handled.



I’d love to hear something similar with the shorts, where the change in dynamic layers gives me more trouble than the longs. Just for JXL Brass could you use the same patch and do something like this with a series of shorts in say quarter notes going up in increments of like 5 on velocity.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jbuhler said:


> I’d love to hear something similar with the shorts, where the change in dynamic layers gives me more trouble than the longs. Just for JXL Brass could you use the same patch and do something like this with a series of shorts in say quarter notes going up in increments of like 5 on velocity.



I could, if I find the time to get something like that going


----------



## jononotbono

[email protected] said:


> To be honest, "great tone" is for me an argument to consider spending some money.



Definitely. Depends on who it is and what they do but the thought of always having the exact same sound for every piece of music has never appealed to me. Some things work for some music and the same things are often terrible for other music.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

[email protected] said:


> To be honest, "great tone" is for me an argument to consider spending some money.


JXL has a great tone too, but all 3 of them should be EQ'd regardless. 

JXL is the only one that doesn't need reverb though


----------



## Consona

Some a3 trumpets demo? I want to hear how "the weakest part of the library" sounds.


----------



## sourcefor

Consona said:


> Some a3 trumpets demo? I want to hear how "the weakest part of the library" sounds.


You can hear on the site and bought them to try the library and sine player. Disaster at first, crashing logic and not letting me reopen the session, then I deleted and re downloaded and it seems ok for now and I like them but I need more time to see if I really like them I only bought to try! Sorry I could not be more helpful!


----------



## SZK-Max

Consona said:


> Some a3 trumpets demo? I want to hear how "the weakest part of the library" sounds.



JXL Trumpets...
The weakest point is "detuned Sound".It's always loose, many overtones and no lines in the sound.
But I don't think it's a bad. Just use the sound properly.

It is roughly played The Captain America March. There are many processing such as EQ.

I hope this will help.


----------



## Eptesicus

Consona said:


> Some a3 trumpets demo? I want to hear how "the weakest part of the library" sounds.



This little mock up is using the natural mics for A3 trumpets (posted earlier in thread) and they feature prominently:

post 1767






Junkie XL Brass?


Seems like this thread came back to reality after lots of hype. I was one of the first to purchase JXL Brass and I had issues from the start until now. Blaming that on my system I first bought a new PC and then set up the old one as slave for VEPro. I set up a complete JXL Brass Template in...




vi-control.net







https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/this-is-berk-no-woodwind-mp3.27432/


----------



## shawnsingh

SZK-Max said:


> JXL Trumpets...
> The weakest point is "detuned Sound".It's always loose, many overtones and no lines in the sound.
> But I don't think it's a bad. Just use the sound properly.
> 
> It is roughly played The Captain America March. There are many processing such as EQ.
> 
> I hope this will help.



It already sounds great, but some thoughts about the intonation issue you pointed out...

I wonder if using lower velocity layers only and compensating for the volume decrease would help here. When played super loud, it makes sense to me that trumpet players attack intonation and timbre get a little unwieldy.

I suspect this is one of the big things people feel like is the "weak part" of the trumpet sound, because that kind of fff power sound on every note does sound unnatural. The fff sound on trumpets is best left for the occasional CC swell or the occasional big single note. But once you get into mid and lower layers, the attacks come back to the consistent professional sound


----------



## jamwerks

That sounds pretty natural to me for an a3 sound. They aren't perfectly in tune with each other, that's nature, and that's what we want. That's why it sounds wide and fat. As most people know, the 3 strings on a note in a piano are tuned a few cents apart exactly for this reason (warmth, wideness, fatness).


----------



## Nils Neumann

I feel the trumpets really shine when you deactivate the two upper layers


shawnsingh said:


> It already sounds great, but some thoughts about the intonation issue you pointed out...
> 
> I wonder if using lower velocity layers only and compensating for the volume decrease would help here. When played super loud, it makes sense to me that trumpet players attack intonation and timbre get a little unwieldy.
> 
> I suspect this is one of the big things people feel like is the "weak part" of the trumpet sound, because that kind of fff power sound on every note does sound unnatural. The fff sound on trumpets is best left for the occasional CC swell or the occasional big single note. But once you get into mid and lower layers, the attacks come back to the consistent professional sound


----------



## jbuhler

In preparation for getting the JXL Brass solo trombone, I downloaded and activated Sine. I can't say that it went flawlessly. The Sine player hung the first time I opened it. The second time it crashed. Finally the third time was the charm. This was in standalone. I can't say this is a particularly auspicious introduction...


----------



## shawnsingh

jamwerks said:


> That sounds pretty natural to me for an a3 sound. They aren't perfectly in tune with each other, that's nature, and that's what we want. That's why it sounds wide and fat. As most people know, the 3 strings on a note in a piano are tuned a few cents apart exactly for this reason (warmth, wideness, fatness).



Oh, totally agree with your point. What I was referring to (and I thought that @SZK-Max was referring to also?) were the slightly weird attacks that waver out of tune, not just the general ensemble tuning. I think I do hear those slightly wavering "power" attacks on some of the notes in that example that SZK-Max shared. Or even more, it's way more obvious on the JXL solo trumpet at high layers. Even with round robins, sequencing a string of those kinds of power attacks together just feels unnatural, I think a real player would only use that super-overblown sound on very few select notes with room to breath and let their lips survive


----------



## SZK-Max

shawnsingh said:


> I wonder if using lower velocity layers only and compensating for the volume decrease would help here. When played super loud, it makes sense to me that trumpet players attack intonation and timbre get a little unwieldy.



You're right. It does not keep fff. The player's head bursts.

Turning off the high layer eliminates extra crossfades and gives you the best maximum volume.

I do not turn it off because I want to give priority to fluctuation.
The problem of the attack is to limit the layer, and I also like the method of controlling with CC. It may sound real legato tongue.







JXLB has great expressive power. In fact, weak points can be hidden in many ways.
Now it is one of the best trumpets.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jbuhler said:


> In preparation for getting the JXL Brass solo trombone, I downloaded and activated Sine. I can't say that it went flawlessly. The Sine player hung the first time I opened it. The second time it crashed. Finally the third time was the charm. This was in standalone. I can't say this is a particularly auspicious introduction...


have you loaded layers yet to see if it's working decently now?


----------



## jbuhler

ProfoundSilence said:


> have you loaded layers yet to see if it's working decently now?


Yes, after the initial hang and the following crash Sine has worked flawlessly. Well, it doesn’t always update the active dynamic layers accurately in the little window on the lower right as I move through the articulations, but otherwise it’s all good. I experimented a bit with Layers and then bought the solo trombone. I really like the sound of this; great soft side, very serviceable legato, and I’m finding it sits reasonably well with the SSB trombones even with just the basic mic set. It’s a much better fit than the trombone from Century Brass. What would be your mic recommendation for using with SSB?


----------



## coprhead6

I’m using the single trombone to compliment SSB in a project.

Every time I load the full Cubase session and play the track for the first time, SINE massively distorts and tries to kill my monitors. When I replay, the distortion is gone. 

Any solutions to this? I’m waiting long enough to let the samples load. I’ve already checked.

@jbuhler
So far the AMXL Tree by itself seems to do well with a little Spaces II for tail ! I’d like to know what you come up with for this setup. I did the exact same thing as you and bought the solo trombone to compliment SSB


----------



## jbuhler

coprhead6 said:


> I’m using the single trombone to compliment SSB in a project.
> 
> Every time I load the full Cubase session and play the track for the first time, SINE massively distorts and tries to kill my monitors. When I replay, the distortion is gone.
> 
> Any solutions to this? I’m waiting long enough to let the samples load. I’ve already checked.
> 
> @jbuhler
> So far the AMXL Tree by itself seems to do well with a little Spaces II for tail ! I’d like to know what you come up with for this setup. I did the exact same thing as you and bought the solo trombone to compliment SSB


I'm using Logic, and so far I don't have the distortion issue. Have my fingers crossed. And I hope you get your distortion issue fixed. 

So far I've also just been using the AMXL Tree. At first I thought I'd been using a mix of the tree and close, but I see now that the close isn't on. As I said, I'm finding the AMXL Tree sits reasonably well with SSB (using the Jake Jackson stereo mix on SSB) but I've only played with it so far with the SSB trombones in various configurations (balancing triads, doing swells, working in unison, etc.). I haven't yet moved it into the orchestra.

The Logic articulation set mapped keyswitches very easily. I'll next see if I can add duplicate articulations and map those as well. It would be nice to have soft sustains with all but the lowest two dynamic layers disabled for instance, in addition to one where they are all enabled.


----------



## gst98

Does anyone know of a way to trigger the different legato scripts? Without a proper manual I can't figure out how I switch between the legato and runs.


----------



## Novatlan Sound

The legato setup is described here: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/324-legato-handling


----------



## Bear Market

Novatlan Sound said:


> The legato setup is described here: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/324-legato-handling



Yes, but unless I'm mistaken it doesn't say where the different speed zones start and end?


----------



## gst98

Yes I’m still confused.
I’ve tried everything I can think of to trigger the second speed zone, but no luck other than to have runs set as the default. No matter what I do I can’t get it to do agile fast legato parts on the horns.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Personally I preferred separating them entirely into two different articulations. it doesn't cost any extra ram, and I can be sure of the transitions I want playing.


----------



## shawnsingh

I think a good feature request would be to have an additional slider in that part of the UI, with a marker for each boundary between two zones, and then let the user drag those markers along the slider to set thresholds for all the zones. That way not only can we see what the thresholds are, but we can also configure them. And maybe portions of the slider can be highlighted to show which speed zone is currently active.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

shawnsingh said:


> I think a good feature request would be to have an additional slider in that part of the UI, with a marker for each boundary between two zones, and then let the user drag those markers along the slider to set thresholds for all the zones. That way not only can we see what the thresholds are, but we can also configure them. And maybe portions of the slider can be highlighted to show which speed zone is currently active.


I always disliked the speed, would great ally prefer the option for velocity controlled transitions


----------



## jononotbono

ProfoundSilence said:


> I always disliked the speed, would great ally prefer the option for velocity controlled transitions



But that would mean you'd need control over your fingers, right? An expansion pack of phrases would likely be better for you, no?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jononotbono said:


> But that would mean you'd need control over your fingers, right? An expansion pack of phrases would likely be better for you, no?


somebody call an ambulance










..


..



..

..

but not for me


----------



## Bear Market

Has anyone been able to successfully layer two articulations (say sustains and staccatissimo for example) using the poly switch mode?

I'm in Logic, so I wanted to create an articulation set that took advantage of the poly switch by creating an articulation that triggered both sustains and staccatissimo and a predetermined XFade position (somewhere close to the articulation crossover in SINE, so I can control the staccatissimo with velocity and sustains with cc1). This should work in theory, right? In practise however (at least for me), while the Logic articulation set successfully triggers the sus+stacc "poly" in SINE, and sets the Xfade position where expected, I get no sound from SINE unless I click the Switch/XFade button in the performance view. After having clicked that button, everything works as expected. This is a bug, right? Or has anyone gotten this to work?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

theres a bug with that, it's like you have to trigger it twice or something. I know OT is aware of it - I ran into that when I created a similar patch.


----------



## Bear Market

ProfoundSilence said:


> theres a bug with that, it's like you have to trigger it twice or something. I know OT is aware of it - I ran into that when I created a similar patch.



Ok, good to know, thanks! Let's hope for a fix in the next SINE version then. Whenever that may be... it sure takes OT a long time to get it out (especially considering the rather critical stability issues).


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Bear Market said:


> Ok, good to know, thanks! Let's hope for a fix in the next SINE version then. Whenever that may be... it sure takes OT a long time to get it out (especially considering the rather critical stability issues).


last time they mentioned it, it's because Apple is trash - and they were waiting for Catalina so they can push it through to us. 

maybe they'll develop a policy where windows version updates get pushed out while mac waits on catalina


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Has anyone here bought a single instrument and successfully blended it with another brass library such as CSB?

Really want the trombones, but then I realised just how thick they sound in comparison to CSB.


----------



## Eptesicus

Havent tried blending it with another brass library yet. I dont want to dilute the stellar sound .

The trombones are indeed brilliant. Just started writing a new James Bond themed piece and really happy with the results brass wise (attached)

I hope an update comes round soon to fix the stability issues. I think the ram locking feature being disabled helps but the player still shows signs of problems with samples getting stuck in memory.

Once SINE is stable its going to be a hell of a library.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Eptesicus said:


> Havent tried blending it with another brass library yet. I dont want to dilute the stellar sound .
> 
> The trombones are indeed brilliant. Just started writing a new James Bond themed piece and really happy with the results brass wise (attached)
> 
> I hope an update comes round soon to fix the stability issues. I think the ram locking feature being disabled helps but the player still shows signs of problems with samples getting stuck in memory.
> 
> Once SINE is stable its going to be a hell of a library.


Is that a mixture of all the bones? solo, a3, a6?


----------



## Eptesicus

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Is that a mixture of all the bones? solo, a3, a6?



Just using A3 in the bones actually for this at the moment (plus a3 trumpets, A4 horns and Tuba)


----------



## jbuhler

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Has anyone here bought a single instrument and successfully blended it with another brass library such as CSB?
> 
> Really want the trombones, but then I realised just how thick they sound in comparison to CSB.


I have the solo trombone and it’s working really well with SSB.


----------



## sourcefor

I will buy more Articulations as soon as the player is stable in LOGIC Pro! Love the sound though! I have the 3 Trumpets to try it out!


----------



## AlainTH

i make a music for a friend magician for his scenic show. 85 tracks in cubase windows 10. he came at home and i wanted experiment to add another trumpe sound in layering at one moment. I used Berlin brass (and kontakt of course) and wanted to add a track with JXL (and sine) with staccatissimo and sforzando or another. i begin to load some articulations, try one and another and again, cubase hang, Ctrl Alt Del , 5 minuters lost... this bank makes me reallly nervous, the sine player is buggy, the editor has not make the good choice by not permitting using kontakt with his library during the time he made a safe player. Since january he promised update for a 700 euros library i always use with fear...and no refund possible.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

AlainTH said:


> i make a music for a friend magician for his scenic show. 85 tracks in cubase windows 10. he came at home and i wanted experiment to add another trumpe sound in layering at one moment. I used Berlin brass (and kontakt of course) and wanted to add a track with JXL (and sine) with staccatissimo and sforzando or another. i begin to load some articulations, try one and another and again, cubase hang, Ctrl Alt Del , 5 minuters lost... this bank makes me reallly nervous, the sine player is buggy, the editor has not make the good choice by not permitting using kontakt with his library during the time he made a safe player. Since january he promised update for a 700 euros library i always use with fear...and no refund possible.




did you try disabling or enabling memory lock?


----------



## AlainTH

no.. if there is a way to avoid problemls i wait from the conceptor/seller to communicate about (yes real communication, not just promote) ... i will search for this option of memory lock anyway, but later... grrr


----------



## ProfoundSilence

AlainTH said:


> no.. if there is a way to avoid problemls i wait from the conceptor/seller to communicate about (yes real communication, not just promote) ... i will search for this option of memory lock anyway, but later... grrr


they have mentioned this on the forums that they've received support tickets in reference to that issue and that Is a solution they've provided that helped some people


the memory lock option is in settings, and it's in the online documentation - but this also shows you didn't bother sending them a support request, so they would have no way of knowing to "email you a solution". Hope it helps you, if you were going to wait until they use their crystal ball to discover you're having a problem you'd be waiting a loooong time XD


----------



## AlainTH

i dont want they 'email' a solution, neither your morality lesson... just want to use the library safely. This forum is useful for sharing experiences which is essential. Dont need your police attitude.


----------



## jcrosby

ProfoundSilence said:


> but this also shows you didn't bother sending them a support request, so they would have no way of knowing to "email you a solution".



For real dude? I've been in contact with them since Late December about multiple bugs. Saying I've been actively pursuing issues would be an understatement. Error logs, video screen captures, clear documentation of steps to reproduce issues in my OS/DAW, even sending in DAW project files OT requested from me...Until the thread last week no one from OT had made any effort to mention anything about _memory lock / (_preload data) having any potential role. You do realize its possible that other people can have completely different experiences from your own, no??


----------



## nas

jcrosby said:


> For real dude? I've been in contact with them since Late December about multiple bugs. Saying I've been actively pursuing issues would be an understatement. Error logs, video screen captures, clear documentation of steps to reproduce issues in my OS/DAW, even sending in DAW project files OT requested from me...Until the thread last week no one from OT had made any effort to mention anything about _memory lock / (_preload data) having any potential role. You do realize its possible that other people can have completely different experiences from your own, no??



I hear you, I jumped on this library during the special offer and really like the sounds, the consistency of the articulations and the general design of the player, but I've found this library unusable due to the lack of stability and have been forced to remove it from my template. I've done everything you've done in communicating with OT support and sending them screen captures and VEP 7 projects etc.. and have tried to remain positive and enthusiastic while they address these issues.

I completely understand that OT want to get it right and sometimes that takes time, but honestly it's taking longer than I expected and it's getting annoying.

OT... Don't release a product that isn't ready! I don't give a shit about "market forces" and whatever else business practices dictate an early release that clearly isn't ready for prime time, and I certainly didn't ask to become a paying Beta tester for OT.

No product is going to be perfect and some bugs will be inevitable and that's to be expected... but to be unusable and effectively rendered as vaporware for a few months until OT can get it together is a major turn off and does little to build confidence or good faith with paying costumers - and these libraries aren't cheap - this is supposed to be a high-end marquee product.


O.k. "rant off", back to composing... without JXL Brass.


----------



## Olfirf

Without any malicious joy: didn't you guys guess you were going to be beta testers? Wether it is the new Spitfire Player or the this one ... it was safe to expect them to take a long time to get it as reliable over all systems as Kontakt is. If that was so easy to get there, Play would not have failed for such a long time. 

And there is a reason that both SF and OT used a branded product (endorsed by a famous person) to start a release with their new player. They just kew there are some people who just have to get that product despite of all the risk with the player ...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

How is jxl vaporware? you literally have to product on your hard drive... not even abandonware makes sense - so not sure what you intended to call it.

@jcrosby they've literally said as much, I'm pointing out that they aren't psychic - and considering he said it himself that he's "waiting for them to reach out with fixes". 

like almost every developer I'm sure(and pretty sure they have hinted at this but I won't speak for them) that people have a tendency to make a lot of noise on the forum sometimes disproportionately to the number or support tickets they even receive. IIRC you contacted support, as any responsible consumer. 

we just live in a society were being loud and kicking and screaming works sometimes - but unfortunately with software they cant fix you if you dont contact them.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Olfirf said:


> And there is a reason that both SF and OT used a branded product (endorsed by a famous person) to start a release with their new player. They just kew there are some people who just have to get that product despite of all the risk with the player ...


I hate it too, even though I have no desire to sound like either composer - its gotta be intentional


----------



## Nomadozic

AlainTH said:


> I used Berlin brass (and kontakt of course) and wanted to add a track with JXL (and sine) with staccatissimo and sforzando or another. i begin to load some articulations, try one and another and again, cubase hang, Ctrl Alt Del , 5 minuters lost...



I know what you mean... I just can't use JXL's staccatissimo articulations and such for big projects with a lot of other VST using Cubase right now. Way to risky... and it's really frustrating because it sounds great


----------



## blue5

Feels like buying a brand new BMW, then you find out it can't drive, but instead you can sit inside and enjoy interior


----------



## Eptesicus

ProfoundSilence said:


> they have mentioned this on the forums that they've received support tickets in reference to that issue and that Is a solution they've provided that helped some people
> 
> 
> the memory lock option is in settings, and it's in the online documentation - but this also shows you didn't bother sending them a support request, so they would have no way of knowing to "email you a solution". Hope it helps you, if you were going to wait until they use their crystal ball to discover you're having a problem you'd be waiting a loooong time XD



To be fair to him, i have been in contact with them and they never actually told me to try the memory lock feature. Its only because i saw it on this forum.

They seem to have stopped replying generally as well ( i know their forum post indicated they would be doing this, but im not sure that is the best way to go!).


----------



## ProfoundSilence

AlainTH said:


> i dont want they 'email' a solution, neither your morality lesson... just want to use the library safely. This forum is useful for sharing experiences which is essential. Dont need your police attitude.


Good to hear I won't bother offering you advice on how to fix your problem, and I'm sure it will be obvious to others that your experience as we're sharing, as someone who has a problem hasn't reached out to support and it surprised the problem has it fixed itself magically


----------



## Eptesicus

jcrosby said:


> For real dude? I've been in contact with them since Late December about multiple bugs. Saying I've been actively pursuing issues would be an understatement. Error logs, video screen captures, clear documentation of steps to reproduce issues in my OS/DAW, even sending in DAW project files OT requested from me...Until the thread last week no one from OT had made any effort to mention anything about _memory lock / (_preload data) having any potential role. You do realize its possible that other people can have completely different experiences from your own, no??



Same.

As it happens i think the memory lock feature has helped. Since the three times of having that option off i have closed Cubase twice successfully without crashing. One other time it did still crash though.

The main issue i am having (and i think the SINE playing is having) is definitely to do with the samples getting stuck in RAM. Im not technical enough to know why this happens or why it casues crashes/freezing but the majority of my issues are definitely related to that.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Eptesicus said:


> To be fair to him, i have been in contact with them and they never actually told me to try the memory lock feature. Its only because i saw it on this forum.
> 
> They seem to have stopped replying generally as well ( i know their forum post indicated they would be doing this, but im not sure that is the best way to go!).


They didnt say they would stop responding, they said they would stop giving us updates until something was done, or responding without having a solution

Which is kind of a fifty-fifty because some people complain they get no response and others complained that get a response saying they'll look into it which isn't satisfying


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

What is the memory lock feature? My SINE usage has dwindled due to it crashing unexpectedly. I have not seen any communication from OT about potentially fixing it via this memory lock thing? I hope they release an update soon as it has now been 3 months since buying it. I believe Spitfire released a number of updates quite rapidly to address stability problems with BBCSO so hopefully OT can speed it up!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

ALittleNightMusic said:


> What is the memory lock feature? My SINE usage has dwindled due to it crashing unexpectedly. I have not seen any communication from OT about potentially fixing it via this memory lock thing? I hope they release an update soon as it has now been 3 months since buying it. I believe Spitfire released a number of updates quite rapidly to address stability problems with BBCSO so hopefully OT can speed it up!


Well we got 1 update, and the 2nd update was halted because they are dealing with Catalina(something spitfire didn't have the extra headache from at the time)

And memory lock isn't something you "Fix", it's a feature that some machines really don't like which causes frequent crashing. This is likely the reason people complained of getting crashes when they tried to switch articulations out, or remove articulations/ect.


----------



## Eptesicus

ProfoundSilence said:


> They didnt say they would stop responding, they said they would stop giving us updates until something was done, or responding without having a solution
> 
> Which is kind of a fifty-fifty because some people complain they get no response and others complained that get a response saying they'll look into it which isn't satisfying




Yeh. Seems like they have hunkered down until they have fixed it. Presumably they don't want to NOT have fixed the stability in the next update so i guess we will have to wait until they do.

Can't wait until they do fix it. I have been able to use it in a project for quite a few hours over the last week. Generally it is ok once you have everything you want loaded. Never had a crash so far during playback/recording etc. Only when using the interface, and primarily when unloading/closing. I do disabling the memory lock feature has helped but not 100% fixed things. 

Hopefully they can get to the bottom of it, and also fix some of the library issues (a6 horns legato, some tuning things) etc because then i genuinally think this will be the best brass library available. Working with it in terms of consistency and dynamics/expressiveness has been great.


----------



## José Herring

Well I got me my JXL Tbone and it's lovely. Working fine on my Windows 10 VEPro 5 machine. Play 6 on the other hand. Not doing as well. But, I don't blame Play. I just don't feel like upgrading VEPro ATM. 

Little trouble figuring out how to do the combined articulation thing in Sine though. But, not really a show stopper.


----------



## JohnG

josejherring said:


> Wll I got me my JXL Tbone and it's lovely. Working fine on my Windows 10 VEPro 5 machin



Same, though VE Pro 6. Works fine.


----------



## AlainTH

ProfoundSilence said:


> They didnt say they would stop responding, they said they would stop giving us updates until something was done, or responding without having a solution
> 
> Which is kind of a fifty-fifty because some people complain they get no response and others complained that get a response saying they'll look into it which isn't satisfying


the problem is not what they say... they said good things at the new year... they said other words that satisfy people like you... the problem is not a communication problem is the choice of not permit to use kontakt for a expansive product they can't make worhkng correctly. small company or not, when a product is so expansive, they have to be more responsible and propose a refund or something for the buyers who don't think, like you, that 700 euros for a non working produkt is not a great affair,... just wait they 'say something', answer bravo bravo, and wait again... and thos opinion is for everyone not just profoundsilence guy which seem here only for tracking criticals posts and answer at the place of OT.


----------



## José Herring

AlainTH said:


> the problem is not what they say... they said good things at the new year... they said other words that satisfy people like you... the problem is not a communication problem is the choice of not permit to use kontakt for a expansive product they can't make worhkng correctly. small company or not, when a product is so expansive, they have to be more responsible.


Give him a chance to work it out. This isn't some "music tribe", it's Hendrik. He's taken on a lot with his libraries and his new player. We all remember what a debacle the first 2 release of Play were. And, I'm still waiting for "Play Pro" . It took them years to get that under control. Sine is miles ahead of where Play was when it was released. He's got some things to work out for sure. I'm not sure combining a sample player with a store and with multimedia presentations all housed in one is a great idea. Seems like never ending conflict to me. But, I'm not in there trying to make this thing, so give it chance before starting to accuse them of being irresponsible. Give them a chance to be responsible. If in a year, we are still dealing with the same issues with no progress. Yes, kill him off on the forums then. But, don't trying to kill him off right out of the gate. 

I met the guy at NAMM several years ago when he was starting out. Nice guy super bright with a lot of ambition, drive and energy. I have every confidence that he'll make his new player something great.

We'd all love for every library to be Kontakt based, but that isn't going to happen. And, given the sudden drop of support for "legacy" products that NI just announced, I'm not sure NI can be fully trusted to be there for OT 10 years from now. And, OT has more than 10 years of life left.


----------



## AlainTH

seems reasonnable, but i bought it as a functionnal product. the kontakt compatibility is not difficult to do, for the time sine work well... they have to propose something for the unlucky who have just paid 700 euros and were not advertised they had to accept the product as it is, without solution to problems 3 months later and no reclamation possible. i understand the sympathetic aspect of a team who work on a new product for our activity, if it was sold say 300 euros until it works well, and if the team would already communicate friendly, propose some solutions (like tips of memory lock on a 'news page' on the site or by mail), propose experimental update to upload and test etc... that would be another context, entraining users to participate at his amelioration, and here i would be kind and encouraging... but it is absolutely not the way they use in their promotional/communicating materials and the manner they manage customers so they have to assume.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

people regularly use HZS and BBCSO.

what in your experience makes you think the product will be left "as is". 

they dumped a massive amount of time and money into a player, did you think they just made a player for 1 single product and if it worked it worked?

took time to work out most of the spitfire player kinks, but eventually it was a functional player. The entire purpose of the SINE player was to build the future of OTs entire platform.


----------



## AlainTH

not the subject but you had to say something


----------



## ProfoundSilence

AlainTH said:


> not the subject but you had to say something


it is the subject:




AlainTH said:


> they have to propose something for the unlucky who have just paid 700 euros and were not advertised they had to accept the product as it is



The idea that they have no plans to improve the sine player after just releasing it is absolutely ridiculous, and to even entertain that idea is insane. If they wanted to profit, they'd have just released JXL brass on sine player - not spend an arm and a leg developing SINE player just to release 1 product and let users play Russian roulette to see whos' machine likes the program and whos' doesn't. 

We all paid 700$(or less for those who pre-ordered) and at this point you're just slamming your hands on the table and yelling "but I want it now!". I mean the perfect analogy for your hyperbole would be like a kid saying his parents are staving him because he has to wait until everyone sits at the table to start eating. It's obviously untrue, everyone there knows it's untrue. So you're essentially making noise to make noise, unless somehow you ACTUALLY THINK sine player is abandonware, in which case you're a lost cause. Making noise for the sake of making noise because you're unhappy makes sense when the developer doesn't seem to have any intention of fixing anything - but that's not the case, they've expressed that, so there isn't a reason to continue to do it. 

You're free to make ridiculous claims about #abandonware all you want, but this is the last time I plan on addressing that kind of hyperbole from you. It's your voice, you're free to express what you'd like for the most part... but keep in mind that others value opinion based on how they view the person as well as how well it's supported. At the moment there is no veteran user here who shares the opinion that JXL brass was the ole' bait and switch, and that the sine player is abandonware. None, none at all. Is there anyone on this forum that YOU look up to and respect that has that opinion? Is there something that YOU know that we don't?


----------



## Nils Neumann

Guys they are working on it, just give them a little bit more time. It’s coming.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Nils Neumann said:


> Guys they are working on it, just give them a little bit more time. It’s coming.


Loose lips sink ships

I've seen where your studio is, you're suppose to keep things on the hush hush


----------



## Bear Market

I find it tiring that so many tend to go to extremes with their argumentation. Claims that SINE is abandonware seem quite unfounded. The manner in which certain people retort to such claims are equally skewed in my opinion. Does it have to be either an unmitigated disaster or the greatest thing since sliced bread? Perhaps it is somewhere in between, in some kind of grey (in this increasingly black and white world).

Let's face it, the SINE release was - objectively - not 100% successful. There are well-documented stability issues. The decision to release this product in its current state can obviously be questioned. On the other hand, nothing suggests that OT is not working hard to fix the problems with their player. Everyone and their grandma can have opinions on how OT chooses to communicate with their customers but, ultimately, that is for OT to decide.


----------



## AlainTH

thay could give signals, propose update for trying etc.... and offer for example advantages on other libraries etc... something motre constructive and positive ( solmething else than the insults of profoundsilence lol)... when everybody is concerned, informed and active in a process, it is a different affair, make customers allies is different than high head despising attitude. i don't make "noise for noise" and want not "to seem like a kid" (??) i complain the product doesn't work as it is sold for, yes... if, like me you were in the situation where with the 'client' near you you and try another sound for his project and you have to ctrl alt sup the machine and try explain this is because the new library you bought (i dont precise 700euros) is not well working.... if you don't try to vex everybodybody who complain, and try answer for OT 'you know well', it will make less noise.


----------



## sourcefor

Yeah Give the guys a chance...everyone has had hiccups! Have some patience and if you cannot develop it yourself, let the experts work on it, they will come through! They have been trying very diligently to help me so I for one, will wait for an update!


----------



## jbuhler

AlainTH said:


> thay could give signals, propose update for trying etc.... and offer for example advantages on other libraries etc... something motre constructive and positive ( solmething else than the insults of profoundsilence lol)... when everybody is concerned, informed and active in a process, it is a different affair, make customers allies is different than high head despising attitude. i don't make "noise for noise" and want not "to seem like a kid" (??) i complain the product doesn't work as it is sold for, yes... if, like me you were in the situation where with the 'client' near you you and try another sound for his project and you have to ctrl alt sup the machine and try explain this is because the new library you bought (i dont precise 700euros) is not well working.... if you don't try to vex everybodybody who complain, and try answer for OT 'you know well', it will make less noise.


If you had paid attention to OT’s practice before the release of JXLB, nothing has been surprising about their handling of Sine and JXL Brass. They are generally very deliberate in addressing issues, and the updates to Sine have been very fast by OT’s standards. The deliberate approach to updates is one reason I waited on JXLB and Sine and then have been testing it right now with one instrument. Software is also hard, cross platform software quadruply so. And getting it right usually takes awhile and several iterations, even with extensive beta testing, especially if you want a library close to affordable. 

That said, I’ve found OT’s response on the problems with the library and Sine to have been so far surprisingly quick. And the Sine player after two crashes when I installed it has since been working absolutely flawlessly for me.

In the meantime I’ve had several issues with OT libraries in Kontakt and am now really wanting to see their libraries ported to Sine sooner rather than later.


----------



## AlainTH

sure i wait...


----------



## Zero&One

jbuhler said:


> And the Sine player after two crashes when I installed it has since been working absolutely flawlessly for me.



I think you are on Logic, am I right? Have you changed any settings like the memory lock or anything else? 
Mine dies if I try to do anything with it after the initial load. If I load a complete section and just leave it, it's generally ok other than the odd exit hang/crash. But if I move or replace more than a few things it dies.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jbuhler said:


> really wanting to see their libraries ported to Sine sooner rather than later.


{{{this}}}

Working with t h i c c sample pools like the berlin series takes a long ass time to load, even to bring up the kontakt interface to adjust something. 

One thing that I think both the SF player and SINE have in common, is that they both know what they had/needed/miss from kontakt. Havent had a SF library that uses the new player - but I can definitely tell atleast with SINE that there are things that they wish they could just do as simple and easy as the keyswitching system, being re-arrangable/no limit to amount of articulations/loading the same articulation up more than once - ect. 

As it stands, I load all the articulations twice(except i don't use the legato sustain duplicate) and have 1-8 the full dynamic range and 9-16 a duplicate with a lower maximum dynamic/less volume range.


----------



## jbuhler

Zero&One said:


> I think you are on Logic, am I right? Have you changed any settings like the memory lock or anything else?
> Mine dies if I try to do anything with it after the initial load. If I load a complete section and just leave it, it's generally ok other than the odd exit hang/crash. But if I move or replace more than a few things it dies.


I am on Logic. I have changed microphones and have reordered the articulations without incident. I'm not even diligent about waiting for the instrument to fully load before doing things with it. But I am only running one instance of Sine at this moment since I only have one instrument. Maybe some of the issues have to do with interactions among instances.


----------



## jbuhler

ProfoundSilence said:


> {{{this}}}
> 
> Working with t h i c c sample pools like the berlin series takes a long ass time to load, even to bring up the kontakt interface to adjust something.
> 
> One thing that I think both the SF player and SINE have in common, is that they both know what they had/needed/miss from kontakt. Havent had a SF library that uses the new player - but I can definitely tell atleast with SINE that there are things that they wish they could just do as simple and easy as the keyswitching system, being re-arrangable/no limit to amount of articulations/loading the same articulation up more than once - ect.
> 
> As it stands, I load all the articulations twice(except i don't use the legato sustain duplicate) and have 1-8 the full dynamic range and 9-16 a duplicate with a lower maximum dynamic/less volume range.


I’ll try this arrangement out. The ability to unload dynamic layers is one of my favorite features of OT (they already implemented it with Capsule of course). I wish SF would do it, especially on HZS, which also has many dynamic layers for some articulations.


----------



## Zero&One

jbuhler said:


> I am on Logic. I have changed microphones and have reordered the articulations without incident. I'm not even diligent about waiting for the instrument to fully load before doing things with it. But I am only running one instance of Sine at this moment since I only have one instrument. Maybe some of the issues have to do with interactions among instances.



Thanks! You you may have a point. With all this virus shenanigans, I might delete/move my other 2 and see what happens with just one 
It's a shame as I really like the sound, but I've shelved it for now due to issues. I don't want the current state to cloud my view on it.

I'll report back if/when I get around to it. Thanks again


----------



## AlainTH

SF player works well, whitacre choir works without any pb.

for jxl brass, ot support just said by mail update is imminent... so we'll see soon.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey everyone,

*The SINE Player 1.0.2 update is here!*

Before we begin, we’d like to thank you all for your patience over the last few months. Developing SINE takes a massive amount of time and resources, and our team has been working around the clock on this update. We’re fully committed to the SINE Player and we’re working our hardest on making it perfect for everyone.
Thank you especially to all of you who reported issues to [email protected]. This really does help us to improve things.
This update fixes the performance issues some of you have experienced.


*Downloading the new update*

To download the new update, please head to http://www.getsine.com (www.getsine.com) and click ‘Download’.

Tobias has created some useful documents on our Helpdesk: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/​

*Junkie XL Brass 1.1 update coming soon*
Although the SINE Player update is available to download, the Junkie XL Brass update is still undergoing some tests. But we didn't want you to have to wait any longer for the SINE Player update. We can tell you that the Junkie XL Brass update is coming VERY soon, bringing the following improvements:


A new Full Brass instrument for sketching ideas is now available with Sustains, Stacatissimo, and Marcato Short articulations for owners of the full collection.
Horns a6: Re-edited and re-tuned Legato transitions.
Trombones a6: Tuning issues fixed.
Cimbassi a3: Various sample and editing issues fixed.
Refined tuning on Staccato and Staccatissimo patches for Trombones a3 + a6, and Trumpets a3 + a6.

*What’s in the SINE update?*

First up, we fixed some specific issues, including:


The hanging legato notes issue that occurred when switching between articulations with variable key ranges.
PolyMaps are now correctly recalled in existing projects.
Layers will load fine on case-sensitive drive formats.
Please note: This will be available for Junkie XL Brass in the upcoming update.
But we mainly focused on performance, so you should see some improvements, including:


Performance is not degraded when playing an instance while another instance is loading.
No performance issues when using higher MIDI channel numbers.
Projects will now load and close faster.
*Access the full changelog here: *
https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/366-sine-player-changelog

Thanks so much again for your patience and your continued support. Remember—if you do run into a bug, please report it by contacting us at: [email protected].

Best,

OT


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey everyone,

To all Junkie XL Brass collection + single instrument owners:

*The Junkie XL Brass update (1.1) is now available!*

We know some of you have been waiting for this, so thanks for being patient.


*How to update:*​
Make sure you’re using the latest version of SINE. It only launched two days ago, so if you haven’t updated SINE in the last two days, you’ll need to download the update here.​
Open SINE, go to ‘My Licenses’. All instruments that have updates waiting will show ‘Add Update’. Click the button to add the update to the queue.​
Tobias has created some useful documents on our Helpdesk: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/

And for more details on updating instruments in SINE, there’s a step-by-step guide here: 
Downloading updates
​*What’s in the update?*
Junkie XL Brass update includes:


Full brass patches for sketching ideas are now available for the Sustains, Stacatissimo, and Marcato Short articulations
Horns a6: Re-edited and re-tuned Legato transitions 
Trombones a6: Tuning issues fixed 
Cimbassi a3: Various sample and editing issues fixed
Refined tuning on Staccato and Staccatissimo patches for Trombones a3 + a6, and Trumpets a3 + a6
Various minor improvements and fixes

And in case you missed it on Wednesday, this is the info on the SINE update:

*The SINE Player 1.0.2 *

We fixed some specific issues, including:

The hanging legato notes issue, when switching between articulations with variable key ranges
PolyMaps are now correctly recalled in existing projects
And Junkie XL Brass and Layers will load fine on case-sensitive drive formats
Performance is not degraded when playing an instance while another instance is loading
No performance issues when using higher MIDI channel numbers
Projects will now load and close faster
*Read the full changelog here:* https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/366-sine-player-changelog 


*How do I find which SINE version I have installed?*
We saw this question so to answer:
In SINE, click _Options_ then _Advanced Settings_.
Making the version number more visible is on our to-do list but for this SINE update, our main focus was on performance.

Some of you have been asking why we’re releasing these updates so quietly… be assured there is a method to this madness. We decided to release the SINE and Junkie XL Brass updates separately to reduce risk and to make it easier to isolate any issues. We’ll announce both updates to the wider world on Monday (23rd May), but we figured you people on VI wouldn’t want to wait. Hope that clarifies things!

Thank you again to all of you who reported issues to: [email protected] This really does help us to improve things. We focused on performance in these updates, and we’re so happy to hear that SINE is now working great for some of you. 
But if you run into a bug, please reach out to our support. This helps us find the issue and then build the fix. It also means our support team can provide you with fixes and solutions to help make SINE quicker for you to use.

To reiterate: SINE is a priority for us and we’re committed to making it perfect for everyone, so thanks again for your continued support and feedback.

Best,

OT


----------



## Beluga

Oh my, maybe JXL should have done the demos himself. These sound just chaotic and loud to me. I'm sure the library has better potential than that..


----------



## Nils Neumann

Beluga said:


> Oh my, maybe JXL should have done the demos himself. These sound just chaotic and loud to me. I'm sure the library has better potential than that..


He did 2 demos himself^^


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Nils Neumann said:


> He did 2 demos himself^^


Well if you're going to open your big fat mouth, you should write one too!

**r/whooooosh**
In all seriousness, SOMETHING must have gone right with the update... was a lot of doom and gloom about stability ect, and then the patch came out and it's been **too** silent. Ironically I haven't even updated sine or JXL brass yet.


----------



## Eptesicus

ProfoundSilence said:


> Well if you're going to open your big fat mouth, you should write one too!
> 
> **r/whooooosh**
> In all seriousness, SOMETHING must have gone right with the update... was a lot of doom and gloom about stability ect, and then the patch came out and it's been **too** silent. Ironically I haven't even updated sine or JXL brass yet.



I havent update SINE or the library either yet!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Eptesicus said:


> I havent update SINE or the library either yet!


I can count my days off I've had since February on 1 hand, been trying different strings and woodwinds out with JXLB. trying to plan out what I want to use template wise


----------



## AlainTH

the "kid saying his parents are staving him because he has to wait until everyone sits at the table to start eating." play music now with also some others libraries and at no time for just post something you would comment in the minute. you are not the center of earth etc...
for jxl i have no more problems now and pass time to mix it with others, especially from spitfire: bbc and studiopro. please leave other members comment that...


----------



## Si_Withenshaw

It's much better. 

I had Nuendo crash about 4 or 5 times today at the exact same point in a cue - on a hunch, I decided to close the Sine plugin window that I had open. No more crash. So there's still some weirdness going on but it's certainly improved.


----------



## Eptesicus

Just updated. Need to test if it has stopped crashing etc.

However, i was disappointed to find that the top Bb in the solo trumpet soft sustain is still a B (and not a Bb)!

You would think someone would at least play through all the notes for each patch and notice something so blindingly obvious!!

Also the top notes in the horns A4 legato are still all out of tune.

I had contacted them about the horns issue (the trumpet one i only found recently) but im not sure there is much point in contacting them again as they dont respond anymore....

I also got an error whilst updating but have no idea what instrument it was for or whether it has affected anything..!?

Really, makes me question how much quality control has gone into this.


----------



## José Herring

Eptesicus said:


> Just updated. Need to test if it has stopped crashing etc.
> 
> However, i was disappointed to find that the top Bb in the solo trumpet soft sustain is still a B (and not a Bb)!



The player got excited when recording and played the bflat a little on the high side. Adds to the realism.


----------



## AlainTH

top Bb and B sound well here in solo trumpet soft sustain.


----------



## Eptesicus

AlainTH said:


> top Bb and B sound well here in solo trumpet soft sustain.



Top dynamic? Find it hard to believe there is a difference. Hold the top Bb with solo trumpet soft sustain and mod wheel up and down. The pitch changes!


----------



## AlainTH

you are right... independant of velocity the CC1 (modwheel) make the change at 110.
example with cc1 from 0 to 127


----------



## kmm08

Not sure what this software is being tested with, but it definitely does not work with Cubase and VEPro correctly. No matter what midi channel number I assign to a track, If I load more than one instrument or articulation in SINE 1.0.2 (running under VEPro) set to different midi channels, all instruments respond no matter what channel the Cubase track is set to. 
The only way to resolve this is to either set the midi channel in VEPro to the same channel as the Cubase track, or only load one instrument on one channel per instance of SINE. When the plugin is set to All in VEPro for multi-instrument playback, the midi channel assignments in SINE become meaningless. I now tested and confirmed this with both Cubase 9.5 and 10.5, as well as VEPro 6 & 7. They all work exactly the same. Odd thing is that if you load SINE in Cubase directly, it seems to work alright, meaning it has to be an issue with SINE and VEPro. Since I run all plugins in VEPro outside of Cubase, this does't 
help. Unfortunately this is becoming more of a headache than it's worth right now. Although the XL library sounds good on its own, the SINE player does not seem to be ready for prime time use. There should have been a beta testing period for this software before its release.


----------



## novaburst

josejherring said:


> Well I got me my JXL Tbone and it's lovely. Working fine on my Windows 10 VEPro 5 machine. Play 6 on the other hand. Not doing as well. But, I don't blame Play. I just don't feel like upgrading VEPro ATM.



I think if it means performance and stability I think I would go for what works for the music creation, I think play is still essential to mock-ups today and if it meant grabbing VEpro 7 as soon as I was able I would do it. 

It is sad they stopped the multi licensing and I think many were cut up about that, I grabbed two licences but only after screaming and kicking, but it did mean more performance and stability, both in windows 7 and 10 not so sure about Macs as don't have


----------



## Si_Withenshaw

kmm08 said:


> Not sure what this software is being tested with, but it definitely does not work with Cubase and VEPro correctly. No matter what midi channel number I assign to a track, If I load more than one instrument or articulation in SINE 1.0.2 (running under VEPro) set to different midi channels, all instruments respond no matter what channel the Cubase track is set to.
> The only way to resolve this is to either set the midi channel in VEPro to the same channel as the Cubase track, or only load one instrument on one channel per instance of SINE. When the plugin is set to All in VEPro for multi-instrument playback, the midi channel assignments in SINE become meaningless. I now tested and confirmed this with both Cubase 9.5 and 10.5, as well as VEPro 6 & 7. They all work exactly the same. Odd thing is that if you load SINE in Cubase directly, it seems to work alright, meaning it has to be an issue with SINE and VEPro. Since I run all plugins in VEPro outside of Cubase, this does't
> help. Unfortunately this is becoming more of a headache than it's worth right now. Although the XL library sounds good on its own, the SINE player does not seem to be ready for prime time use. There should have been a beta testing period for this software before its release.



From your screen shot, it looks like those articulations are on the same MIDI channel & being selected by key switches. Have you tried clicking the settings icon above the articulations & remapping with MIDI channels?


----------



## Eptesicus

ARGH! I am so fed up of wasting time with this software.

Now i cant get the updates to work. I have followed the advice earlier in the other thread about deleting the json file and the download contents file, but nothing works and i just constantly get an error message for the a4 horns and a6 trombones.

"Error
Problem with contents installation

Cannot move D:\Orchestral Tools\SINE Player\Download\96\revonlyfront to D:\Orchestral Tools\SINE Player\Content\96\revonlyfront: boost::filesystem::rename: Access is denied: "D:\Orchestral Tools\SINE Player\Download\96\revonlyfront", "D:\Orchestral Tools\SINE Player\Content\96\revonlyfront"


This is the very last time i pre-order ANYTHING in this industry. They have your money and because it is a digital product you are ****** even if the software provided is a load of rubbish. This industry needs far more regulation.


----------



## AEF

Crashed in S1 4.6 when unloading arts. 

Bc of the 90 degree orientation, i find it doesnt blend with Berlin Strings despite being in the same room. 

Overall, my least favorite OT library.


----------



## Eptesicus

kmm08 said:


> There should have been a beta testing period for this software before its release.



I fear that is what we are doing right now.... :(


----------



## Eptesicus

Eptesicus said:


> ARGH! I am so fed up of wasting time with this software.
> 
> Now i cant get the updates to work. I have followed the advice earlier in the other thread about deleting the json file and the download contents file, but nothing works and i just constantly get an error message for the a4 horns and a6 trombones.
> 
> "Error
> Problem with contents installation
> 
> Cannot move D:\Orchestral Tools\SINE Player\Download\96\revonlyfront to D:\Orchestral Tools\SINE Player\Content\96\revonlyfront: boost::filesystem::rename: Access is denied: "D:\Orchestral Tools\SINE Player\Download\96\revonlyfront", "D:\Orchestral Tools\SINE Player\Content\96\revonlyfront"
> 
> 
> This is the very last time i pre-order ANYTHING in this industry. They have your money and because it is a digital product you are ****** even if the software provided is a load of rubbish. This industry needs far more regulation.




So after wasting much time troubleshooting this, it would appear that simply activating the "Try re- downloading it" option which is a very tiny option at the bottom if you scroll down through the entire instrument list made the update work/stick without the error message.

What is bizarre though is that it didn't re download the whole instrument when selecting those to update. It would appear that simply "arming" this option and then clicking on "add update" for the a6 trombones and a4 horns made it update without the error message. Something clearly buggy going on there....

Thought i would mention it case anyone else is having this issue!


----------



## AlainTH

Eptesicus said:


> I fear that is what we are doing right now.... :(


but at xxxl price... for the moment and for what i did with, it works


----------



## Brian Nowak

It seems like the issues surrounding SINE are kind of all over the board. I have friends with JXL Brass that say it's working perfectly. Some say it's crash city. Some say the issues are intermittent. 

I am still back on Sierra and am using a slightly older version of Logic Pro X, so my setup isn't even supported. Still, I wonder if, like Kontakt issues, they aren't more prevalent in Logic. It seems that something about Logic adds trouble for developers in general, if my understanding is correct.

Still, it's an interesting library. It's certainly capable of sounding fantastic. But I will say I've also heard some straight god-awful stuff from various people posting with it. So it seems it's still... well... samples. lol

Once people start really getting used to Infinite Brass and start pushing it to its maximum, I'm curious to see how they compare.


----------



## Eptesicus

Brian Nowak said:


> It seems like the issues surrounding SINE are kind of all over the board. I have friends with JXL Brass that say it's working perfectly. Some say it's crash city. Some say the issues are intermittent.
> 
> I am still back on Sierra and am using a slightly older version of Logic Pro X, so my setup isn't even supported. Still, I wonder if, like Kontakt issues, they aren't more prevalent in Logic. It seems that something about Logic adds trouble for developers in general, if my understanding is correct.
> 
> Still, it's an interesting library. It's certainly capable of sounding fantastic. But I will say I've also heard some straight god-awful stuff from various people posting with it. So it seems it's still... well... samples. lol
> 
> Once people start really getting used to Infinite Brass and start pushing it to its maximum, I'm curious to see how they compare.



Yes SINE is flakey and it is frustrating.

The actual library itself has some very good bits though. In fact, i love the sound of everything apart from the trumpets. The trombones and low brass in particular are probably the best trombones and low brass i've used/heard. The horns (apart from the A6 which are still not up to scratch..) are lovely sounding too.

I dont know what it is about the trumpets. They are good for a really fierce, screeching sound but they don't sound very lyrical or have a particularly nice tone. If there was one section i would like them to re-record or perhaps expand (maybe a lyrical style slightly softer patch) it would be the trumpets.

The workflow and ease of use (when it doesnt crash) is also excellent with the consistency of articulations and key switches.

Another massive achievement is the cpu footprint - i mean seriously wow at that.

I would say it is a good library, but falls short of being truly great.

Much of my frustration stems from all the bugs encountered with the player so far to be honest.


----------



## pawelmorytko

Hey guys, thinking of trying out some of the low brass by buying some instruments individually. Probably going to try out the Tuba, Cimbassi, Bass Trombones and Trombones, but not sure whether to get the a6 or a3, really like the sound of both, probably the a6 more for long notes but a3 for shorts. Which ones do you guys prefer?


----------



## Brian Nowak

Eptesicus said:


> Yes SINE is flakey and it is frustrating.
> 
> The actual library itself has some very good bits though. In fact, i love the sound of everything apart from the trumpets. The trombones and low brass in particular are probably the best trombones and low brass i've used/heard. The horns (apart from the A6 which are still not up to scratch..) are lovely sounding too.
> 
> I dont know what it is about the trumpets. They are good for a really fierce, screeching sound but they don't sound very lyrical or have a particularly nice tone. If there was one section i would like them to re-record or perhaps expand (maybe a lyrical style slightly softer patch) it would be the trumpets.
> 
> The workflow and ease of use (when it doesnt crash) is also excellent with the consistency of articulations and key switches.
> 
> Another massive achievement is the cpu footprint - i mean seriously wow at that.
> 
> I would say it is a good library, but falls short of being truly great.
> 
> Much of my frustration stems from all the bugs encountered with the player so far to be honest.



I have Ark 1-3. The bass trumpets in Ark 2 are pretty smooth sounding, but in both 1 and 3 they're pretty brash and sibilant sounding - a bit quacky in their envelope. Really not very pleasant to listen to outside of a very thick context (in my opinion).

So I kind of wonder if it's something to do with the way OT samples trumpets, particularly when they're loud. Because the Berlin brass trumpets don't seem to have this type of thing going on. Pretty lyrical and balanced.


----------



## Nils Neumann

pawelmorytko said:


> Hey guys, thinking of trying out some of the low brass by buying some instruments individually. Probably going to try out the Tuba, Cimbassi, Bass Trombones and Trombones, but not sure whether to get the a6 or a3, really like the sound of both, probably the a6 more for long notes but a3 for shorts. Which ones do you guys prefer?


I think the a3 Trombones are the best out of the Trombones on board. It’s still possible to octaved the bones or write in close 2 part writing without being too huge/thick. Which is tricky to do with a6 bones.
And I really like the tone and the playability of the a3 bones. Same goes for the Bass Trombones.


The Tuba is the biggest beast I own. They did some magic on JXL/AM close mics. Low end is really beautiful in this instrument, ff and pp is done very well here. But if I recall correctly it is a Bass or Contrabass Tuba, so maybe not the best starting point more classical arrangements. For Romantic or Soundtrack Music definetly.

Hope that’s usefull

(please note that I recieved a free copie from OT)


----------



## pawelmorytko

So I finally decided to give in and buy the JXL Bass Trombones, especially since hearing there have been updates for both the Sine Player and JXL Brass... What a frustrating few hours I've had though.

First off, after purchasing, I tried to download about 5 mics or so. The download was going well and really quick, but at 80% or so it got stuck, and estimated time went up and nothing was moving or changing. Gave up on that attempt and tried again. Same thing happened... Thought to myself, I guess I'll try one mic at a time. That helped, but during unzipping stage, I had an error about some JSON data being invalid. Was a bit worried the download/unzipping wasn't done properly. I downloaded the other mics using the same method though and finally managed to get to the playing stage.

Opened SINE in Logic, loaded the instrument and tried to play, but the mics seem to need a good few seconds to load before being ready to play. The sound was great though, really enjoyed the AMXL mics more than I thought I would. What made it not so enjoyable was the input delay when playing. Very hard to play anything cohesive (especially shorts). No delay on Kontakt, so it must be a SINE Player issue.

Was going to buy the rest of the low brass, but I think I'm gonna hold off for now...

EDIT: I really need to get myself another SSD because moving the library there has seemed to fix most issues!


----------



## Zero&One

@pawelmorytko have you tried them in the standalone player? See if there’s any difference.
Mine seem to be fine in Logic. I have the same loading thing, if I do anything Sine related in that short period I’ll get a crash 5/10 or so.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

its massive library, I would never try to run it off anything other than SSDs


----------



## Nils Neumann

pawelmorytko said:


> So I finally decided to give in and buy the JXL Bass Trombones, especially since hearing there have been updates for both the Sine Player and JXL Brass... What a frustrating few hours I've had though.
> 
> First off, after purchasing, I tried to download about 5 mics or so. The download was going well and really quick, but at 80% or so it got stuck, and estimated time went up and nothing was moving or changing. Gave up on that attempt and tried again. Same thing happened... Thought to myself, I guess I'll try one mic at a time. That helped, but during unzipping stage, I had an error about some JSON data being invalid. Was a bit worried the download/unzipping wasn't done properly. I downloaded the other mics using the same method though and finally managed to get to the playing stage.
> 
> Opened SINE in Logic, loaded the instrument and tried to play, but the mics seem to need a good few seconds to load before being ready to play. The sound was great though, really enjoyed the AMXL mics more than I thought I would. What made it not so enjoyable was the input delay when playing. Very hard to play anything cohesive (especially shorts). No delay on Kontakt, so it must be a SINE Player issue.
> 
> Was going to buy the rest of the low brass, but I think I'm gonna hold off for now...
> 
> EDIT: I really need to get myself another SSD because moving the library there has seemed to fix most issues!




Yeah, JXLB is heavy on your computer. SSD definitely needed.
I think I could not work without the mic merge function.

But the ram loading time is optimized quite a bit with the last update.

You can also adjuste the latency within Sine, if I recall correctly. Not on my Computer right now. But I’m sure you can find it.


----------



## pawelmorytko

Zero&One said:


> @pawelmorytko have you tried them in the standalone player? See if there’s any difference.
> Mine seem to be fine in Logic. I have the same loading thing, if I do anything Sine related in that short period I’ll get a crash 5/10 or so.


Seems to work much better in the standalone player. When trying to open the sine player on Logic I often get the spinning rainbow wheel that loads for ages. And yeah anything Sine related often crashes Logic still.




Nils Neumann said:


> You can also adjuste the latency within Sine, if I recall correctly. Not on my Computer right now. But I’m sure you can find it.


Yeah SSD was definitely needed, the playability and loading is much better now.

Only two problems left is the downloading multiple mics at once issue/ downloading one mic and getting the JSON data error during unzipping (I've emailed OT about this).

And the other problem is that when trying to record something in with sustain softs articulation, the patch decided to switch it self to sustains + legato by itself for some reason. I didn't touch any key switches and there's no midi data to tell it to switch. Only fix I've found is to make sure toehold the sustains soft key switch down when playing or deleting the sustains + legato articulation

Edit: Is there a way to safely and properly delete mic positions? I downloaded all of the unprocessed thinking I would prefer the natural sound of the brass, but I definitely prefer the AMXL Mixes, and was thinking of deleting them to save space


----------



## Manaberry

If you have multiple plugins that generate latency in your DAW, your experience will be very much affected. I bought the Bass Bones two weeks ago also. Splendid sound and glad Alan's mics setup is here. On my end, I have several issues with SINE, and it seems (from what OT Support told me) I am the only having those issues haha. SINE Player needs some updates.



pawelmorytko said:


> Edit: Is there a way to safely and properly delete mic positions? I downloaded all of the unprocessed thinking I would prefer the natural sound of the brass, but I definitely prefer the AMXL Mixes, and was thinking of deleting them to save space



I guess you cannot. Unless you edit the son to remove the mics name you want to delete. SINE is checking the integrity of the mics through the json file.


----------



## Zero&One

pawelmorytko said:


> Edit: Is there a way to safely and properly delete mic positions? I downloaded all of the unprocessed thinking I would prefer the natural sound of the brass, but I definitely prefer the AMXL Mixes, and was thinking of deleting them to save space



I just tested this.
Open the folder, my Cimbassi was called 379
Move the folder mic to a backup drive (or delete)
Open Sine.
Under Library section
Click Settings on the Library - Remove Library
Click the + Collection
Browse to Library.

Once added back the mics are gone. I did try this without the above process and you get a json error as expected. I'm going to move my 3 libs extra mics to an attached HDD, just so I can slap them back in if I feel the need for them at some stage.


----------



## pawelmorytko

Zero&One said:


> I just tested this.
> Open the folder, my Cimbassi was called 379
> Move the folder mic to a backup drive (or delete)
> Open Sine.
> Under Library section
> Click Settings on the Library - Remove Library
> Click the + Collection
> Browse to Library.
> 
> Once added back the mics are gone. I did try this without the above process and you get a json error as expected. I'm going to move my 3 libs extra mics to an attached HDD, just so I can slap them back in if I feel the need for them at some stage.


This worked perfectly, no errors or anything, thank you! Only wish the folders were named after the instruments instead of some numbers. I guess you can always go inside them to check the name of the samples


----------



## Zero&One

pawelmorytko said:


> This worked perfectly, no errors or anything, thank you! Only wish the folders were named after the instruments instead of some numbers. I guess you can always go inside them to check the name of the samples



Nice one! I've moved a few from the 3 I own. 
The only niggle I had, was the JXL Icon was not there on adding back. I just clicked Store or My Licenses tab and it updated the little icon


----------



## pawelmorytko

Any tips to make the marcatos have a sharper attack? When changing a phrase from staccatissimo to marcatos, there's a little bit of that mwah effect on the marcato that sounds a bit unrealistic, especially when not on the top dynamics. Layering a staccato on a different track with the marcato seems to help a bit but wondering if theres any other/better ways


----------



## ProfoundSilence

pawelmorytko said:


> Any tips to make the marcatos have a sharper attack? When changing a phrase from staccatissimo to marcatos, there's a little bit of that mwah effect on the marcato that sounds a bit unrealistic, especially when not on the top dynamics. Layering a staccato on a different track with the marcato seems to help a bit but wondering if theres any other/better ways


I guess layering, but what kind of robot brass have you heard?


----------



## Eptesicus

So having updated everything, on first impressions the player does seem a lot more stable.

The a6 horn legato generally is better (ie it doesnt sound weird and cut off), BUT there are a LOT of issues with split notes/tuning on the high dynamic legato transitions. Also the top end legato seems to be missing or cut off (ie like they didnt even fix that bit/register of it).

It is really worrisome that for such an expensive library, quality control seems to be severely lacking. They are selling this for 750 euro and therefore such things simply are not acceptable in my opinion.

Check the attached file out.

Can anyone else confirm this their end on these notes with the A6 horn legato?


----------



## pawelmorytko

Is the a6 horns still a bit dodgy after the update? Loving the low brass I recently got and was thinking of getting the horns but not sure whether to get the a6 or a4. Ive listened to many demos and reviews and difference seems to be minimal in tone. One thing making me want the a6 is that I already have an a4 with CSB, but the main thing I like about JXL is the tone and I know the a4 horns in JXL sound quite different than CSB a4, so it might be worth just getting the a4 JXL horns I guess?


----------



## Eptesicus

pawelmorytko said:


> Is the a6 horns still a bit dodgy after the update? Loving the low brass I recently got and was thinking of getting the horns but not sure whether to get the a6 or a4. Ive listened to many demos and reviews and difference seems to be minimal in tone. One thing making me want the a6 is that I already have an a4 with CSB, but the main thing I like about JXL is the tone and I know the a4 horns in JXL sound quite different than CSB a4, so it might be worth just getting the a4 JXL horns I guess?



Yes it is still dodgy. Listen to my example in the post above yours.

Loads of split sounding notes on the legato and the upper register legato is still broken.

I would strongly recommend not investing in the a6 horns at the moment.


----------



## gst98

I generally love JXL so far. My biggest complaint is the horn legatos seem, across the board, just kinda sluggish? They have the dynamic legato speed, but if ypu play anything fast it's really unclear and messy. It only gets worse the bigger the ensemble. I've found the standard mic mixes measurably better than the AM mixes in terms of reducing the sluggishness.


----------



## Consona

GPlowman said:


> Hi all - I got JXL brass on Christmas day and been playing around with it when I can. SINE player is great overall - but can be 'sensitive' when it's loading samples. I tend to leave it while it's in progress or else it will crash for me. Ok once the RAM counter stops loading. I've been reading the thread with interest and I think I had a very similar idea to what was suggested already - Star Wars.
> 
> I have a mock-up of Scherzo for X-Wings where having originally started this with Cinebrass, I removed CB when I bought JXL, and well, to me it was like night and day of the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> These are the a3 mics (a4 for horns). Mics are close, mid, tree, ab for AM merged, but the trumpets I felt sounded better unprocessed. So the same, just the unprocessed mics merged there.
> 
> And below is a partial mock-up of the Star Wars main theme.



Any new demos?


----------



## Sjoerd Visser

I have a demo I finished about ~2 weeks ago. I would just like to chime in and say I am extremely satisfied with the latest update. So thanks Orchestral Tools & Tom! Before the update, I could run about 1 or 2 instrument patches on a project with single mic, any further than that started giving all kinds of problems till the point that Cubase just couldn't handle it anymore.

I wanted to do a little transcribing project while in quarantaine, and it felt like the perfect time to play with JXL Brass. Almost all brass in this is from JXL Brass, I alternate a bit between the Solo Trumpet from Nucleus and the one from JXL Brass at some point, but you might be able to spot in the video where this is.

All of this is is done by ear, so it's not perfect at all, and I really had to stop myself from not going to crazy on it and spend weeks and weeks polishing this 

The mic I used is the JXL Tree for every instrument, I didn't dare to stress-test it a bit more (yet) for a relatively big project like this. I was very surprised it ran smoothly till the very end (not a single hickup), I have about 32GB of RAM available, so decent but not extremely powerful. And I say till the very end, cause as soon as I bounced it out and mastered it I couldn't re-open the project anymore without Cubase crashing for the lack of RAM. Guess I pushed it till the very edge of the 32GB.


----------



## Kony

@Sjoerd Visser nice work!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

love the tone of those woods with JXL brass. I actually just made a comment about if they made a BBSCO woodwind library XD


----------



## Sjoerd Visser

ProfoundSilence said:


> love the tone of those woods with JXL brass. I actually just made a comment about if they made a BBSCO woodwind library XD



I agree, I adore the sound of the bassoons layered with the low brass!


----------



## quickbrownf0x

Sjoerd Visser said:


> I have a demo I finished about ~2 weeks ago. I would just like to chime in and say I am extremely satisfied with the latest update. So thanks Orchestral Tools & Tom! Before the update, I could run about 1 or 2 instrument patches on a project with single mic, any further than that started giving all kinds of problems till the point that Cubase just couldn't handle it anymore.
> 
> I wanted to do a little transcribing project while in quarantaine, and it felt like the perfect time to play with JXL Brass. Almost all brass in this is from JXL Brass, I alternate a bit between the Solo Trumpet from Nucleus and the one from JXL Brass at some point, but you might be able to spot in the video where this is.
> 
> All of this is is done by ear, so it's not perfect at all, and I really had to stop myself from not going to crazy on it and spend weeks and weeks polishing this
> 
> The mic I used is the JXL Tree for every instrument, I didn't dare to stress-test it a bit more (yet) for a relatively big project like this. I was very surprised it ran smoothly till the very end (not a single hickup), I have about 32GB of RAM available, so decent but not extremely powerful. And I say till the very end, cause as soon as I bounced it out and mastered it I couldn't re-open the project anymore without Cubase crashing for the lack of RAM. Guess I pushed it till the very edge of the 32GB.




Lekker bezig, Sjoerd.


----------



## Eptesicus

Finished my first piece using this (as finally, with the latest update it does seem more stable, and Cubase actually closes properly!)

Brass is just Junkie XL. Really gave me the sound i wanted in this.

007 inspired obviously..


----------



## ProfoundSilence

sounds good on my cellphone XD


----------



## Artemi

Eptesicus said:


> Finished my first piece using this (as finally, with the latest update it does seem more stable, and Cubase actually closes properly!)
> 
> Brass is just Junkie XL. Really gave me the sound i wanted in this.
> 
> 007 inspired obviously..


and strings are?


----------



## Eptesicus

Artemi said:


> and strings are?



CSS


----------



## Sjoerd Visser

Eptesicus said:


> CSS



Great job. Loved it! I know this is about the brass, but I loved that mellow string intermezzo.


----------



## Eptesicus

Sjoerd Visser said:


> Great job. Loved it! I know this is about the brass, but I loved that mellow string intermezzo.



Yeh if you need dark, broody and dramatic then not much is better (mind you not much is better on the market string wise generally I think!).


----------



## Loïc D

In my last tune below, all brass is JXL.

Including the mute solo trumpet in the beginning.
The rest is Horns a4, Trombones a3 and Cimbassi a3.


----------



## Igorianych

I am very pleased with the library. but so few articulations are missing. e.g. trills, frullato, etc.


----------



## David Kudell

You can hear my JXL Brass at the beginning and end of this track.

I love the sound of this brass. I had some trouble keeping the melody on the beat at the end, using the legato horns and trombones, but I think it's bad programming on my part.


----------



## Eptesicus

For all its faults (many of which have been fixed seemingly in the latest update), these are most definitely the best sampled trombone sections ever in my opinion.

I really wish they would just fix the a6 horns as they are still dodgy.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Eptesicus said:


> For all its faults (many of which have been fixed seemingly in the latest update), these are most definitely the best sampled trombone sections ever in my opinion.
> 
> I really wish they would just fix the a6 horns as they are still dodgy.


yeah I mean, I own all of the major alternatives - and there is just something about both a3 bones(and cimbassi) that feel like air is moved when you play staccatissimo.


----------



## pawelmorytko

ProfoundSilence said:


> yeah I mean, I own all of the major alternatives - and there is just something about both a3 bones(and cimbassi) that feel like air is moved when you play staccatissimo.


Dont forget the tuba! Those 3 are my favourite from jxl brass


----------



## Eptesicus

Spoke to soon about the crashing.

Just tried to open SINE from a tuba track in my project and Cubase has gone none responsive.

Again, never experienced this before in years until introducing SINE.

It is very much still quite flakey. I did try and open it whilst the track is playing though which might be why (but this shouldnt really cause it to crash)

Interestingly i am getting more stuck notes than on the previous version as well.

It certainly is more stable but isnt 100% there yet.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Eptesicus said:


> Spoke to soon about the crashing.
> 
> Just tried to open SINE from a tuba track in my project and Cubase has gone none responsive.
> 
> Again, never experienced this before in years until introducing SINE.
> 
> It is very much still quite flakey. I did try and open it whilst the track is playing though which might be why (but this shouldnt really cause it to crash)
> 
> Interestingly i am getting more stuck notes than on the previous version as well.
> 
> It certainly is more stable but isnt 100% there yet.




to be fair, I dont think ive ever added an instrument, let alone changed a loaded instrument while playing ever in my life. that doesn't seem like a normal thing people do, and I'd wager in any situation were productivity is involved you not do things that SOUND like they break software lol. I use very different software at my work, but we follow the same principle


----------



## Eptesicus

ProfoundSilence said:


> to be fair, I dont think ive ever added an instrument, let alone changed a loaded instrument while playing ever in my life. that doesn't seem like a normal thing people do, and I'd wager in any situation were productivity is involved you not do things that SOUND like they break software lol. I use very different software at my work, but we follow the same principle



Not sure i agree. It caused me to have to force close Cubase, which is instability.

I will be more careful not to do it in future, but again i have opened all my other players whilst a track is playing without it causing issues like this. A stutter/slight pause when doing this i can understand. An actual total crash of the sequencer, i cannot.

I dont think we should be making excuses for SINE. We all (i hope) need and want it to be as stable as possible. Many aspects of this library are brilliant and it will be even better once the player is up to snuff.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

it's not an excuse, but I just advise against what seems like clearly risky uses of programs when loss of progress is a real possibility. 

would be like drop shifting because you've got a 4 hour drive ahead of you... might get away with it a few times but your chances of breaking down increase drastically to the point where waiting on the side of the road isn't faster lol. 

fast is slow, slow is steady.


----------



## Zero&One

@Eptesicus yeah, I kinda treat it with kid gloves. Or at least until there's been a few patches out.

Shame, as it has made me a tad wary of it. I'm constantly opening plugins and changing stuff whilst music is on loop. I just have to remind myself not to. I also save more often when editing with it.


----------



## novaburst

Eptesicus said:


> I did try and open it whilst the track is playing though which might be why (but this shouldnt really cause it to crash)



I think generally this is a bad idea as some plugins can give CPU spike when opening, while you may be fine with some plugins there will always be some that take a bit more processing power to open than others and while your in playback i think your asking for trouble. 

I think bypass is a good idea but even that will present some issues if you have heavy settings while playback


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Zero&One said:


> @Eptesicus yeah, I kinda treat it with kid gloves. Or at least until there's been a few patches out.
> 
> Shame, as it has made me a tad wary of it. I'm constantly opening plugins and changing stuff whilst music is on loop. I just have to remind myself not to. I also save more often when editing with it.


I feel like changing patches while something is looking on a plugin is probably something people normally do, I suppose adding a new instance isn't that far off from that. 

I just generally know what I want before I add it because I don't do much on the front of hybrid, so when I want trombones, I don't really have to audition kontakt/play ect - so I think your example makes more sense in my brain than what I was imagining eptesicius was doing. 

The bigger the template the more kids gloves in general for me... saving takes a billion years but I can always alt tab and watch whatever garbage youtube thinks I should spend my time watching XD


----------



## Johnny

Eptesicus said:


> Finished my first piece using this (as finally, with the latest update it does seem more stable, and Cubase actually closes properly!)
> 
> Brass is just Junkie XL. Really gave me the sound i wanted in this.
> 
> 007 inspired obviously..


Are those exclusively Junkie XL Brass mic positions for the hall sound or did you run through any 3rd party processing? The hall sounds really good! Great job!


----------



## Eptesicus

Johnny said:


> Are those exclusively Junkie XL Brass mic positions for the hall sound or did you run through any 3rd party processing? The hall sounds really good! Great job!



No, it is a balance of natural close, AB and tree mics routed through precedence and breeze to create a soundstage for everything.


----------



## blue5

Is Sine actually compatible with 10.12 Sierra? Thinking of downgrading to Sierra since Mojave is giving me a lot of headaches after I recently updated, graphic glitches etc.


----------



## doctoremmet

quickbrownf0x said:


> Lekker bezig, Sjoerd.


Goed bezig gasten


----------



## OT_Tobias

blue5 said:


> Is Sine actually compatible with 10.12 Sierra? Thinking of downgrading to Sierra since Mojave is giving me a lot of headaches after I recently updated, graphic glitches etc.



SINE Player needs macOS 10.13 or higher.


----------



## blue5

OT_Tobias said:


> SINE Player needs macOS 10.13 or higher.


Thanks Tobias!


----------



## Eptesicus

Zero&One said:


> @Eptesicus yeah, I kinda treat it with kid gloves. Or at least until there's been a few patches out.
> 
> Shame, as it has made me a tad wary of it. I'm constantly opening plugins and changing stuff whilst music is on loop. I just have to remind myself not to. I also save more often when editing with it.



Yeh, it makes me a bit nervous using it. Stability has certainly improved since the last patch, but i am still getting the odd freeze/prevention from Cubase closing here and there (much less frequent than before though).

Nothing upsets the workflow more than a crash. It isnt the data loss or anything ( i have cubase back up saves set on a small interval), but its the force closing, waiting for it to properly close in task manager and then reloading the project. 

Kind of upsets the creative flow


----------



## kmm08

How do you change key switches in this new version (1.0.3)? They're gone. Am I missing something here? 
Also, a bug I sent in a while ago regarding setting the KS low and high starting keys, if you set say low instruments to C5, then try loading a trombone patch, it loads on C#4. 
I think it also would have been better off adding the keyboard to Mixer view instead of Library view.


----------



## kmm08

After further messing around, I noticed that if you load single articulations, each on their own midi channel, the key switches do not show up on the keyboard, even though they are still assigned in the Articulation list. Not sure if this was like this form the initial version, but I guess it doesn't really matter since you wouldn't use key switches with only one articulation loaded per channel anyway.


----------



## OrchestralTools

kmm08 said:


> After further messing around, I noticed that if you load single articulations, each on their own midi channel, the key switches do not show up on the keyboard, even though they are still assigned in the Articulation list. Not sure if this was like this form the initial version, but I guess it doesn't really matter since you wouldn't use key switches with only one articulation loaded per channel anyway.



Hi kmm08,

Keyswitches shouldn't have disappeared, if you're not seeing them with this new update then please reach out to our dedicated support team at [email protected]. Also please let them know any feature requests you have too, this helps us personalize SINE for different types of users.

As for allocating a single articulation per MIDI channel, the keyswitches don't show up then as there's no more use for them.
We have a lot of documents about SINE and the different views on our Helpdesk. In particular, we have the below article about the articulation list and keyswitches:





Loaded Articulations - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


The Loaded Articulations area is displayed at the right of the Library View and Performance View and shows all currently loaded instruments and articulations. I




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com





Hope this helps and let us know if you have any more questions.

Best,

OT


----------



## constaneum

is there any way for me to change the library download path for SINE Player. I dont want it to download everything to C drive by default and my C drive is already overloaded.


----------



## Nils Neumann

constaneum said:


> is there any way for me to change the library download path for SINE Player. I dont want it to download everything to C drive by default and my C drive is already overloaded.


For me it asks for every library where I want to download it. Not for update though


----------



## constaneum

Nils Neumann said:


> For me it asks for every library where I want to download it. Not for update though



Strange. I didnt see that at all


----------



## novaburst

Click the drop down menu to select any of your drives to install onto


----------



## novaburst

Nils Neumann said:


> For me it asks for every library where I want to download it. Not for update though



If you want the up date to go to a drive of your choice you must also click on a mic to install this activates the drop down menu


----------



## Cat

What do you think of the Trumpets in the JXL Brass library? Legato smoothness, shorts?


----------



## KEM

Cat said:


> What do you think of the Trumpets in the JXL Brass library? Legato smoothness, shorts?



Very good, you can easily do fast fanfare riffs with it, and the legato is pretty smooth as well.


----------



## josephwmorgan

Still use this library every day, my favorite/best brass library I own by a mile. Any update on a possible JXL Perc lib?


----------



## Symfoniq

I'm a big fan of Cinematic Studio Brass and also have Hollywood Brass and Spitfire Symphonic Brass.

What will JXL Brass give me that I don't already have?


----------



## pawelmorytko

Symfoniq said:


> I'm a big fan of Cinematic Studio Brass and also have Hollywood Brass and Spitfire Symphonic Brass.
> 
> What will JXL Brass give me that I don't already have?


A great big low brass section in a fantastic hall. One things CSB lacks is power in the low brass because of the room, plus the sections are much smaller.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I literally just dumped it onto this little accidental sketch and I am always amazed at how insanely good JXL can sound.


----------



## richardt4520

ProfoundSilence said:


> I literally just dumped it onto this little accidental sketch and I am always amazed at how insanely good JXL can sound.


That's one of your _accidental_ sketches? I give up! LOL!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

richardt4520 said:


> That's one of your _accidental_ sketches? I give up! LOL!


you already won, I don't actually make music - just a thousand little sketches that never amount to anything.

but the entire process had to do with someone from ViC discord mentioning getting stuck in diatonic land. I gave her a few things that helped me break out of that line of thinking, one of which involves making a poly chord of 5-6 notes and using that as my tonality(and whatever scale it ends up creating). That said, the entire process involved a spinning wheel that pics a random note, and my entire thought process is kinda... recorded. 

If my profile picture being shosti wasn't an indicator - I do enjoy the quirky.


----------



## jamwerks

I bought the soloists from JXLB & ensembles from VSL BBO. Great combo!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jamwerks said:


> I bought the soloists from JXLB & ensembles from VSL BBO. Great combo!


Yeah I have to say the weird way VSL(and other companies) have been trying to sell strange combos isn't my cup of tea - but it's been a great lineup that VSL's released recently(just don't like the structuring of it)


----------



## José Herring

josephwmorgan said:


> Still use this library every day, my favorite/best brass library I own by a mile. Any update on a possible JXL Perc lib?


Jxl perc? Has it been announced?


----------



## KEM

José Herring said:


> Jxl perc? Has it been announced?



Nope, but we all want it haha. I’d prefer a JXL Strings, personally.


----------



## Pablocrespo

Debating about the number of players, I want to buy trombones and french horns but undecided about the number of players, I have CSB and HW brass and bought the JXL bass trombones and cimbassi.

I want epic and bold but I fear that the 12 players could be not agile enough, whst do you think? I heard the middle sized sections and they did sound bold.


----------



## ridgero

Hey guys,

what is your final verdict on the Junkie XL Brass? Is it worth it?

I do like the low brass, but the trumpets seem very odd. I listened to the demos which were made before the update.

I have CSB and I kind of miss the "Epic" factor.


----------



## Eptesicus

ridgero said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> what is your final verdict on the Junkie XL Brass? Is it worth it?
> 
> I do like the low brass, but the trumpets seem very odd. I listened to the demos which were made before the update.
> 
> I have CSB and I kind of miss the "Epic" factor.



Trumpets are bad. The rest is very good for the most part.

As you mentioned, some of the best low brass out there. 

SiNE was incredibly unstable at the start but with updates it has got better. It still isnt perfect but it's getting there. 

I'm quietly hoping that they redo the trumpets in some form.


----------



## Peter Satera

Trumpets do sound quite heavily processed, but you can disable the top FFF, with CSB the trumpets sound great. So with JXLs big sound and CSBs tighter sound it's a win imo. Consistency in JXL is awesome.


----------



## Nils Neumann

Peter Satera said:


> Trumpets do sound quite heavily processed, but you can disable the top FFF, with CSB the trumpets sound great. So with JXLs big sound and CSBs tighter sound it's a win imo. Consistency in JXL is awesome.


That helps a the trumpets a lot! The trumpets lower layers are underappreciated in this library


----------



## KEM

ridgero said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> what is your final verdict on the Junkie XL Brass? Is it worth it?
> 
> I do like the low brass, but the trumpets seem very odd. I listened to the demos which were made before the update.
> 
> I have CSB and I kind of miss the "Epic" factor.



I deleted all my other brass for JXL and I don’t regret it at all, I love this library so much and I haven’t even looked at other brass since.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

KEM said:


> I deleted all my other brass for JXL and I don’t regret it at all, I love this library so much and I haven’t even looked at other brass since.


Her and I have been going steady as well


----------



## KEM

ProfoundSilence said:


> Her and I have been going steady as well



Polyamory was never my thing, to be fair...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

KEM said:


> Polyamory was never my thing, to be fair...


now if we could just convince @OrchestralTools to create some kind of cloud/sharing capability for microphone mixes 

honestly, if it just imports the microphone settings and then bakes it locally - it would simply be a matter of downloading a small file containing only variables. Then we could come up with mixes that match certain recordings/ect or just in general. 

Also, would be AWESOME if they created a offshoot program called wave or something - that allows you to load VST on top of sine instruments - and then allows you to further bake those effects onto the samples. 

Obviously adding VST hosting within SINE would not be ideal - but this would allow us to do so much more, from EQ, to baking in our own reverbs, saturations, ect. This would ofcourse be standalone and would have to be done outside of the DAW.


----------



## Supremo

Guys, what mics do you prefer to use? AMXL ones or unprocessed mics? When I bought the library at the pre-order stage I had downloaded only AMXL mics back then so I’m curious now whether raw mics would be a better choice? I just don’t want to download all mics and occupy so much space on my drive.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Supremo said:


> Guys, what mics do you prefer to use? AMXL ones or unprocessed mics? When I bought the library at the pre-order stage I had downloaded only AMXL mics back then so I’m curious now whether raw mics would be a better choice? I just don’t want to download all mics and occupy so much space on my drive.


My suggestion is to download them and test them yourself. 

Then you can just make your own mixed position and delete the other mics


----------



## bfreepro

Supremo said:


> Guys, what mics do you prefer to use? AMXL ones or unprocessed mics? When I bought the library at the pre-order stage I had downloaded only AMXL mics back then so I’m curious now whether raw mics would be a better choice? I just don’t want to download all mics and occupy so much space on my drive.


I use the AMXL tree on everything except trumpets, those I use the AM surround.

regards to the library, I wish it was the only one I used, but I have to say, the legato can be sorely lacking. I use CSB still for solo brass, a smoother legato, and Trumpets. I really dislike the “quacky” tone of the JXL trumpets. However I use JXL almost exclusively for horns, and every low brass instrument. Amazing library...


----------



## Kartus

ProfoundSilence said:


> now if we could just convince @OrchestralTools to create some kind of cloud/sharing capability for microphone mixes
> 
> honestly, if it just imports the microphone settings and then bakes it locally - it would simply be a matter of downloading a small file containing only variables. Then we could come up with mixes that match certain recordings/ect or just in general.


Does OT know this fantastic idea with Mic presets?


----------



## AlainTH

sure


----------



## Eptesicus

Supremo said:


> Guys, what mics do you prefer to use? AMXL ones or unprocessed mics? When I bought the library at the pre-order stage I had downloaded only AMXL mics back then so I’m curious now whether raw mics would be a better choice? I just don’t want to download all mics and occupy so much space on my drive.



I personally prefer the natural mics.

The amxl ones are good to have for certain things though.


----------



## KEM

Didn’t know what thread to put this in but we finally have a new season of Studio Time!! So excited


----------



## NukillerMedia

can’t wait for the 100 tb library which could pretty much be reproduced with synth1 distortion reverb And kontakt’s included library for layering.


----------



## Getsumen

NukillerMedia said:


> can’t wait for the 100 tb library which could pretty much be reproduced with synth1 distortion reverb And kontakt’s included library for layering.


Well I mean the reason why JXL Is absurdly big is because of the 16 mics. I assume most people just download like 5 or so


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Getsumen said:


> Well I mean the reason why JXL Is absurdly big is because of the 16 mics. I assume most people just download like 5 or so


let's not downplay the fact that almost all the articulations are also 5 dynamic layers, but honestly I think the newbie is trying to ruffle some feathers so I'd just ignore him.(he either doesn't own it, or doesn't know how to use it)






he's been here for like 30 minutes and he's literally only complained 4/5 of those posts.


----------



## doctoremmet

NukillerMedia said:


> can’t wait for the 100 tb library which could pretty much be reproduced with synth1 distortion reverb And kontakt’s included library for layering.


Show us.


----------



## Bear Market

ProfoundSilence said:


> he's been here for like 30 minutes and he's literally only complained 4/5 of those posts.


The ignore button is your friend.


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## ProfoundSilence

Bear Market said:


> The ignore button is your friend.


it's really hard to get on my actual ignore list - there has to be a balance of just enough respect for me to actually want to engage in an argument with the person while also disliking, disagreeing with, or both. But yes, that's what the tools' for.


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## BasariStudios

NukillerMedia said:


> can’t wait for the 100 tb library which could pretty much be reproduced with synth1 distortion reverb And kontakt’s included library for layering.


Yeah...let us know how that works out for ya.
Is that you on YT with 16.876 Million followers?


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## Marco

NukillerMedia said:


> can’t wait for the 100 tb library which could pretty much be reproduced with synth1 distortion reverb And kontakt’s included library for layering.


I want to believe you, send me your synth1 distortion reverb patch.. I'll pay you 700$ if it is as good as JXLB... =) 

obviously if it sucks you are gonna pay 700$ to a charity of your choice =)


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## Peter Satera

Honestly. JXL is fkn beast. I agree the trumpets are bright but the beauty of turning off the FFF dynamic will reduce it if you don't like it. But when you listen to Tom's music you'll absolutely understand why it's like that, in practice he seems to use trumpets to bolster horn lines or crescendo them in chaotic moments. The brightness will therefore edge clarity.

I've been sitting for around a week on and off now processing some of my brass in general, and the JXL brass instruments have much to offer, especially when bolstered by the likes of Cinebrass.


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## Baronvonheadless

Question for brass players/orchestrators who use a lot of brass arrangements.
I'm still rather new to this, and figuring out combinations of horns etc.
At the moment I have the JXL:
a12 Trombones, bass trombones, tuba and solo French horn.

I also use Cinesamples Sonore for their a4 French horn/solo or a3 trumpets.

As well as BBC core (kinda weak brass, but lots of legato) and Abbey Road one (good sounding brass but no legato).

I like to mix the Abbey Road Trumpets, especially staccato, with the JXL horns. Cinesamples Sonore blends ok with these, but sometimes is better mixed with my Bernard Hermann toolkit for a more older sound.

That said, I'm thinking of grabbing maybe two more JXL horns but having trouble deciding, based on what I have now what would YOU grab to blend for a nice brass orchestral movement/arrangement?

Any Suggestions?

I'm probably good on French horns? OR should I get more? Also thinking about one of the trumpets perhaps so I have a more modern epic trumpet with legato, since ARO does not have legato...

hard to say....

Thanks for your time!


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## deleted01

Hello everybody! 
I just bought three instruments from JXL Brass: horn solo, trombone solo and tuba solo. I am very very satisfied, but I have a little doubt about the microphones. At the moment I only downloaded the amxl close and amxl tree. Looking at the walkthrough on youtube it seems that the close mics are centered, while using the library I found that they are actually panned. For the horn and tuba this shouldn't be a big deal, as they seem to be in the same position as the tree mics, so it can be fine. For the trombone, on the other hand, the Close microphone seems to be panned hard right, and if I try to move it I can only have it all on the right or all on the left. Has anyone else encountered the same problem?


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## jaketanner

Raiev said:


> Hello everybody!
> I just bought three instruments from JXL Brass: horn solo, trombone solo and tuba solo. I am very very satisfied, but I have a little doubt about the microphones. At the moment I only downloaded the amxl close and amxl tree. Looking at the walkthrough on youtube it seems that the close mics are centered, while using the library I found that they are actually panned. For the horn and tuba this shouldn't be a big deal, as they seem to be in the same position as the tree mics, so it can be fine. For the trombone, on the other hand, the Close microphone seems to be panned hard right, and if I try to move it I can only have it all on the right or all on the left. Has anyone else encountered the same problem?


Maybe it's to keep phase when you blend it with the ensemble patches. Rarely will a horn take center stage anyway, so maybe that's why? I was thinking about getting some of these myself.


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## deleted01

jaketanner said:


> Maybe it's to keep phase when you blend it with the ensemble patches. Rarely will a horn take center stage anyway, so maybe that's why? I was thinking about getting some of these myself.


Yeah, sure! My doubts were only about the trombone, because the Close mic doesn't seem to match the position of the tree mic.


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## jaketanner

Raiev said:


> Yeah, sure! My doubts were only about the trombone, because the Close mic doesn't seem to match the position of the tree mic.


Ah...I may pick up some of the ensemble patches along the way.


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## Consona

Horns a4 or Horns a6?


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## KEM

Consona said:


> Horns a4 or Horns a6?



a12!!!


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## Composer 2021

My favorite thing about this library is that it sounds significantly more realistic than the live brass recordings on Mr. XL's scores, because the brass on his scores is purposely mixed to sound synthetic and fake.


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## Nils Neumann

Consona said:


> Horns a4 or Horns a6?


4


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## Consona

Nils Neumann said:


> 4


Really? Why?


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## Peter Satera

Composer 2021 said:


> My favorite thing about this library is that it sounds significantly more realistic than the live brass recordings on Mr. XL's scores, because the brass on his scores is purposely mixed to sound synthetic and fake.


It's a mix of live brass and the fake stuff. He has recently added JXL to his template.


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## Zanshin

Consona said:


> Really? Why?


a4 is good if you want to play some chords. Then use the a12 for melody lines. I think TH goes over some of his intentions in his walkthru.


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## KEM

I just discovered a big issue with this library, there is a TON of hardware noise pops/clicks when you turn it up, thankful Izotope RX was able to save the day, but it’s really bad


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## Consona

Zanshin said:


> a4 is good if you want to play some chords. Then use the a12 for melody lines. I think TH goes over some of his intentions in his walkthru.


I want to buy just one for each section. Just want to know whether samples and programming are same with both a4 and a6 or not. I don't want a12 for sure.


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## KEM

Consona said:


> I want to buy just one for each section. Just want to know whether samples and programming are same with both a4 and a6 or not. I don't want a12 for sure.



Yes you do


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## Consona

KEM said:


> Yes you do


My paypal is...


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## Zanshin

Consona said:


> I want to buy just one for each section. Just want to know whether samples and programming are same with both a4 and a6 or not. I don't want a12 for sure.


The library is pretty consistent across instruments - is that is what you are asking?


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## Zanshin

KEM said:


> I just discovered a big issue with this library, there is a TON of hardware noise pops/clicks when you turn it up, thankful Izotope RX was able to save the day, but it’s really bad


I know you run some Kanye level compression  Maybe try shortening the release to 500ms (default is 2700ms I think). You have to do it per articulation.


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## KEM

Zanshin said:


> I know you run some Kanye level compression  Maybe try shortening the release to 500ms (default is 2700ms I think). You have to do it per articulation.



We actually didn’t use any compression at all when testing!! If you were to hear it the way I exported it you wouldn’t hear any issues, but whenever we turned it up (with a limiter, but nothing was actually limited) then you could hear an ungodly amount of clicks/pops, sounded like some sort of hardware processing and we had to use the vinyl preset in RX to get rid of it

I don’t know if it’s a playback error or the way the samples were processed but it sounded awful, I don’t like any artifacts or noise in my music so it’s unacceptable to have that in there


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## Manaberry

KEM said:


> I just discovered a big issue with this library, there is a TON of hardware noise pops/clicks when you turn it up, thankful Izotope RX was able to save the day, but it’s really bad


Yes, it's cursed.



Consona said:


> Horns a4 or Horns a6?


Cannot go wrong with the a6 (but cannot tell with the a4). Great color and it sounds fantastic at mp-mf up to ff.


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## KEM

Manaberry said:


> Yes, it's cursed.



Have you ran into the same issues? It’s especially noticeable on the lower instruments like the bass trombones and tubas


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## Zanshin

KEM said:


> We actually didn’t use any compression at all when testing!! If you were to hear it the way I exported it you wouldn’t hear any issues, but whenever we turned it up (with a limiter, but nothing was actually limited) then you could hear an ungodly amount of clicks/pops, sounded like some sort of hardware processing and we had to use the vinyl preset in RX to get rid of it
> 
> I don’t know if it’s a playback error or the way the samples were processed but it sounded awful, I don’t like any artifacts or noise in my music so it’s unacceptable to have that in there


Do NOT buy anything from Performance Sample haha.

The more you de-noise something the more you may just squeeze the life out of it. Have you considered just moving to mostly synths? Also Infinite Brass might be what the doctor ordered it's very clean and it can do big brass very well.


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## Casiquire

Kartus said:


> Does OT know this fantastic idea with Mic presets?


I'm still hoping for a numerical value with the option to text input lol! But yeah sharing presets sounds so fun


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## KEM

Zanshin said:


> Do NOT buy anything from Performance Sample haha.
> 
> The more you de-noise something the more you may just squeeze the life out of it. Have you considered just moving to mostly synths? Also Infinite Brass might be what the doctor ordered it's very clean and it can do big brass very well.



I’ll have to check that out, I see it get rave reviews here all the time so it might be worth a shot. We don’t really de-noise anything unless we really have to, it’s usually just on percussion where we find it really necessary, strings and brass and all that is usually fine and can be fixed with just a bit of EQ, pops/clicks are what really drive my insane so that’s what we’re listening out for more than anything, sometimes I have to run stuff through RX a few times just to get rid of everything


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## Casiquire

KEM said:


> I’ll have to check that out, I see it get rave reviews here all the time so it might be worth a shot. We don’t really de-noise anything unless we really have to, it’s usually just on percussion where we find it really necessary, strings and brass and all that is usually fine and can be fixed with just a bit of EQ, pops/clicks are what really drive my insane so that’s what we’re listening out for more than anything, sometimes I have to run stuff through RX a few times just to get rid of everything


They're great, but they can be very noisy for sure.


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## KEM

Casiquire said:


> They're great, but they can be very noisy for sure.



I’m surprised I never noticed until now, I guess it was just the particular way I used them this time that made the issue very apparent to me, it’s not too hard of a fix but it’s still not a perfect solution


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## KEM

Although I will say finding this issue did teach me a valuable lesson, from now on after I export stems I’m going to go through and de-click every single track in RX before I compress the folder and send it out for mixing/mastering, hopefully that’ll save me and my engineer a headache later on


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## Casiquire

KEM said:


> Although I will say finding this issue did teach me a valuable lesson, from now on after I export stems I’m going to go through and de-click every single track in RX before I compress the folder and send it out for mixing/mastering, hopefully that’ll save me and my engineer a headache later on


Yeah that's a good idea, i probably wouldn't de-noise the rest of it though. Sometimes libraries work best when i just lean right into their flaws. But taking out the clicks and pops wouldn't kill the sound


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## KEM

Casiquire said:


> Yeah that's a good idea, i probably wouldn't de-noise the rest of it though. Sometimes libraries work best when i just lean right into their flaws. But taking out the clicks and pops wouldn't kill the sound



Yeah I won’t de-noise anything, that’s something I’d rather do on the spot with my mixing engineer once we’ve got a lot of processing going on and we can see what’s really increasing the noise floor that needs to be addressed. But the pops/clicks add nothing to the music and in my opinion are just annoying and distracting, and the de-click on RX is very transparent and doesn’t seem to change the fundamental sound at all, it keeps all the tone and character and just eliminates the annoyance so it’s a win/win for me, definitely what I’ll be doing with all my stems from now on!!


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## Manaberry

KEM said:


> Have you ran into the same issues? It’s especially noticeable on the lower instruments like the bass trombones and tubas


I got thousands of little audio glitches when using OT Brass (JXL or ARK). Impossible to hear while writing, but it became obvious at the mixing stage. RX saved my life on those tracks. I've reinstalled everything a few weeks ago and haven't tried again to check if it was an SSD corruption issue or SINE's.

I will keep you posted.


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## KEM

Manaberry said:


> I got thousands of little audio glitches when using OT Brass (JXL or ARK). Impossible to hear while writing, but it became obvious at the mixing stage. RX saved my life on those tracks. I've reinstalled everything a few weeks ago and haven't tried again to check if it was an SSD corruption issue or SINE's.
> 
> I will keep you posted.



Yeah definitely let me know, I’d be interested in doing some more testing myself and comparing results with everyone else. I’m hoping it is some sort of playback issue and not the samples themselves, they can always update SINE but the samples won’t be changing, so if it’s at the source that’d be a huge bummer


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## Giscard Rasquin

Manaberry said:


> I got thousands of little audio glitches when using OT Brass (JXL or ARK). Impossible to hear while writing, but it became obvious at the mixing stage. RX saved my life on those tracks. I've reinstalled everything a few weeks ago and haven't tried again to check if it was an SSD corruption issue or SINE's.
> 
> I will keep you posted.



Yeah, noticed the same when I got it. Didn’t see much complaining about it so thought it maybe was my system. Used it last week in a project and it was still there so a little disappointed by that but good to hear it’s easy to get rid off with RX. OT really needs to get their stuff together with SINE


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## Nils Neumann

Consona said:


> Really? Why?


I have the a4/a6/a12 patches in my template. With JXL Brass you can just interchange midi without adjusting, most consistent library OT made. So I always test a phrase on every patch. 7 out of 10 times I end up using the a4. Good balance of presence and detail yet a full ensemble sound.


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## Manaberry

I'm mixing today and here is what's RX sees on JXL Horns a4 (Legato ppp to mf crescendo on the left. Right is marcato to A/B) @KEM @Giscard Rasquin

It's way less than the last time but still an issue for me. Solo trombone has similar glitches.

@OT_Tobias Have you seen such glitches before?

It's a clean installation of JXL and my SSD's look healthy according to Samsung Magician.


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## Zanshin

Manaberry said:


> I'm mixing today and here is what's RX sees on JXL Horns a4 (Legato ppp to mf crescendo on the left. Right is marcato to A/B) @KEM @Giscard Rasquin
> 
> It's way less than the last time but still an issue for me. Solo trombone has similar glitches.
> 
> @OT_Tobias Have you seen such glitches before?
> 
> It's a clean installation of JXL and my SSD's look healthy according to Samsung Magician.


This forum is not OT support - did you submit a ticket on their website?


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## Evans

I've always had great, prompt responses from OT through their web site support form.


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## Manaberry

Zanshin said:


> This forum is not OT support - did you submit a ticket on their website?


I'm *very well aware* of that, thank you. I was updating KEM and Giscard.
Also, it cost nothing to tag Tobias. If he judges it is useful to share some info with a wider audience.


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## Manaberry

Evans said:


> I've always had great, prompt responses from OT through their web site support form.


So do I.


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## KEM

Manaberry said:


> I'm mixing today and here is what's RX sees on JXL Horns a4 (Legato ppp to mf crescendo on the left. Right is marcato to A/B) @KEM @Giscard Rasquin
> 
> It's way less than the last time but still an issue for me. Solo trombone has similar glitches.
> 
> @OT_Tobias Have you seen such glitches before?
> 
> It's a clean installation of JXL and my SSD's look healthy according to Samsung Magician.



Very interesting, were you noticing it the most once you have a mastering chain going? That’s when it gets really bad for me


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## Manaberry

KEM said:


> Very interesting, were you noticing it the most once you have a mastering chain going? That’s when it gets really bad for me


During mastering, it becomes obvious to my hear, but it happens at the composition stage.
Do you still have the issue? If that's the case, it would be great if you can send some samples to OT support. I'm discussing with them and yet they didn't find a way to reproduce the bug.


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## KEM

Manaberry said:


> During mastering, it becomes obvious to my hear, but it happens at the composition stage.
> Do you still have the issue? If that's the case, it would be great if you can send some samples to OT support. I'm discussing with them and yet they didn't find a way to reproduce the bug.



I haven’t but it’ll reach out for sure!! Hopefully it’s an easy fix


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## José Herring

Consona said:


> Horns a4 or Horns a6?


Personally I really, really like the A4 patch. Seems to balance nicely in the orchestra.


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## jononotbono

Everyone must Bow Down ( And don't look up for 40 seconds) ...
haha


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