# Hans Zimmer Sound?



## valexnerfarious

In Mixing and mastering...how do i get that sound..that big roomy sound


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## Jeffrey Peterson

Your about to get a lot of unkind responses so don't listen to them, they are only mad because they can't get that sound. When ever Zimmer comes up people get weird in this forum...don't know why. 

Its a life long art that engineers perfect that Zimmer gets to mix his stuff. The knowledge and talent in getting that sound is very extraordinarily high.


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## RiffWraith

Not sure what "that big roomy sound" means. Do you mean something specific, or his sound in general? Because not all of his stuff sounds the same - in fact, if you listen carefully, alot of the stuff sounds VERY different.

He has top engineers with decades of experience working with top-notch gear. He mixes live performances with samples. And that's how he gets his stuff to sound the way it does. Then again, the same holds true for alot of guys - not just Zimmer.

Are you asking how you can get your stuff to sound like his? If you have the years and years of experience he and his engineers do, and you have the gear he does, then you can. If you don't, then that is something to work towards.  

Cheers.


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## David Story

It's the room:
http://www.recordproduction.com/AIR.HTM


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## gsilbers

big?!!! 

you should listen to brian tyler's stuff. like 10x bigger >8o 

very loud. 



anyways. live orchestra and good orchestration. 

here is one tip: what is big if you cant compare it to something small


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## adg21

Also Hans is as good a producer as he is composer. But which score do you have in mind?


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## Dan Mott

Hello

What I like about Hans Zimmer's stuff, to me it sounds very natural and it's a real joy to listen to. He still manages to get a huge sound, but maintaining the natural feel. Atleast that's what I'm hearing. You can really tell if something is over processed and that's a sound I'm not a fan of.

As for a big room sound. A good reverb maybe? I don't know. It would help if you were more specific.


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## Blackster

I believe it's a chain of right decisions Hans makes. It's not one reverb or one EQ that makes it sound great and big, it's the interaction of all things:

- a clear idea of what the result could be
- a long time to experiment
- musicians he involves in his scores
- his own sample libraries he creates for his personal needs (and he has created his own stuff for decades so he knows exactly what he wants and what he does not like)
- highly experienced mixing engineers 
- high quality equipment (soft- and hardware)

And many more things, you name it. 

It's funny, I watched a few interviews (recorded in 2010 & 2011) of Hans and he always pointed out that he can't understand why people try to copy his sound and don't go out and create their own stuff. It's not that hard, it's just effort.  ...


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## Ryan

With the right amount of money in my pocket. Then I think I would manage to get that sound to


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## Blackster

The main problem is that many people want to take a short cut where there is none! It's not only about the money, it's about experience and making a lot of mistakes while experimenting. 

Many people (especially young composers) want to do the same things like the great ones (by that I don't mean Hans especially, but all successful composers) but they don't care about taking a look behind the curtain. 

You can't compensate the lack of decades of experience (in writing, producing, connecting to other people, being around at events, etc. ...) with buying some expensive analogue hardware. That's not the way a business works. 

Btw, I'm so glad that there are "composers" on this planet who can make a great library sound like crap (and those composers are even proud of their work but wonder why nobody gives them a job). They don't know how to use the instruments, the gear is only one aspect among many.

Nevertheless, asking "how do I sound like XXX" implies that you are open to improve your own work/sound. I guess, that's a step into the right direction.

The only way I can answer this (because I don't know better) is: experiment, experiment, experiment ...


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## Andrew Christie

Blackster @ Thu Jan 19 said:


> It's funny, I watched a few interviews (recorded in 2010 & 2011) of Hans and he always pointed out that he can't understand why people try to copy his sound and don't go out and create their own stuff. It's not that hard, it's just effort.  ...



So true. He is one of my heroes, and you would without doubt hear his influence in my music, amongst other artists of course, all of which at this stage is probably a conglomeration of my bad imitations haha! But the real joy of composing is the journey of finding your 'sonic trademark' or 'signature sound'. But I understand and empathise with the curiosity of the OP. There's nothing wrong wanting to know other artists' approach as it's great education and food for thought, as long as you don't think it's gonna be a one way ticket to awesomeness :wink: 



Blackster @ Thu Jan 19 said:


> The main problem is that many people want to take a short cut where there is none! It's not only about the money, it's about experience and making a lot of mistakes while experimenting.
> 
> Many people (especially young composers) want to do the same things like the great ones (by that I don't mean Hans especially, but all successful composers) but they don't care about taking a look behind the curtain.
> 
> You can't compensate the lack of decades of experience (in writing, producing, connecting to other people, being around at events, etc. ...) with buying some expensive analogue hardware. That's not the way a business works.
> 
> Btw, I'm so glad that there are "composers" on this planet who can make a great library sound like crap (and those composers are even proud of their work but wonder why nobody gives them a job). They don't know how to use the instruments, the gear is only one aspect among many.
> 
> Nevertheless, asking "how do I sound like XXX" implies that you are open to improve your own work/sound. I guess, that's a step into the right direction.
> 
> The only way I can answer this (because I don't know better) is: experiment, experiment, experiment ...



Again, I agree


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## dedersen

For one, I think approaching it at the mixing and mastering stage is way too late! As others have said, it's so much more than just adding EQ, compression, reverb and calling it a day. I think it's much more about orchestration choices, including "orchestrating" synth parts.

Unless, of course, you really are just asking about how to get a specific reverb sound. I suspect it's a bit more than that, though?


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## Peter Emanuel Roos

Do some good Googling for interviews and clips with Alan Meyerson - he is Hans' main mixer and they tend to use the same plugins in the mockup phase and the mixing phase.


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## EastWest Lurker

Dan-Jay @ Thu Jan 19 said:


> Hello
> 
> What I like about Hans Zimmer's stuff, to me it sounds very natural and it's a real joy to listen to. He still manages to get a huge sound, but maintaining the natural feel. Atleast that's what I'm hearing. You can really tell if something is over processed and that's a sound I'm not a fan of.
> 
> As for a big room sound. A good reverb maybe? I don't know. It would help if you were more specific.



Part of it is that Hans layers the real with lots of samples and lots of processing. It is a great sound but "natural' is not a descriptor I would use, personally.


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## EastWest Lurker

Ryan @ Thu Jan 19 said:


> With the right amount of money in my pocket. Then I think I would manage to get that sound to



People think that way until they actually have to do it and find out how damn hard it really is.

money will buy you a great room with a great engineer and great players but it will not buy you knowledge and experience, both of which Hans has a lot of.

Then there is also the talent thing


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## valexnerfarious

The big sound i was referring to was like the dark knight score..the strings were big and lush sounding


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## Peter Emanuel Roos

Check this great interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK_OHoVDvJQ&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK_OHoVD ... e=youtu.be)


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## valexnerfarious

the sound that i was going for was that inception/dark knight sound......i wish i was a composer...im really into the european metal and we want to take like a scoring approach to it rather than bands like dimmu borgir


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## tripit

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jan 19 said:


> Ryan @ Thu Jan 19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> With the right amount of money in my pocket. Then I think I would manage to get that sound to
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People think that way until they actually have to do it and find out how damn hard it really is.
> 
> money will buy you a great room with a great engineer and great players but it will not buy you knowledge and experience, both of which Hans has a lot of.
> 
> Then there is also the talent thing
Click to expand...


Yep.


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## germancomponist

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jan 19 said:


> People think that way until they actually have to do it and find out how damn hard it really is.
> 
> money will buy you a great room with a great engineer and great players but it will not buy you knowledge and experience, both of which Hans has a lot of.
> 
> Then there is also the talent thing



+1 o-[][]-o


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## jleckie

Peter Emanuel Roos @ Thu Jan 19 said:


> Check this great interview:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK_OHoVDvJQ&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK_OHoVD ... e=youtu.be)



More wood.


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## Andreas Moisa

Sure I'm with you guys on the "talent" and "experience" aspect, BUT there are definitely some ways to learn more about the sound of Hans Zimmer and adopt those principles to your own music. Get the DVD of Angels & Demons with the Hans Zimmer Prequel Studio where you can listen to the stems of those tracks. You learn a lot about how the synths are arranged and how much reverb is in every stem and so forth.

http://www.amazon.com/Angels-Demons-Two-Disc-Extended-Hanks/dp/B002O5M4T4/ref=sr_1_4?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1327028580&sr=1-4 (http://www.amazon.com/Angels-Demons-Two ... 580&amp;sr=1-4)


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## Dan Mott

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Jan 20 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Thu Jan 19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello
> 
> What I like about Hans Zimmer's stuff, to me it sounds very natural and it's a real joy to listen to. He still manages to get a huge sound, but maintaining the natural feel. Atleast that's what I'm hearing. You can really tell if something is over processed and that's a sound I'm not a fan of.
> 
> As for a big room sound. A good reverb maybe? I don't know. It would help if you were more specific.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Part of it is that Hans layers the real with lots of samples and lots of processing. It is a great sound but "natural' is not a descriptor I would use, personally.
Click to expand...


Well. This is not what I meant. I'm sure he does do alot of processing, but in the end, all his mixes to me, sound very easy on the ear, therefore sounding quite natural to me. Alot of stuff I listen to these days just hurts my ears. I pumped one of his tracks earlier this week and I could have it so loud without my ears hurting. I wouldn't know what else to call it, maybe just very well though out I guess.


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## Andreas Moisa

> sound very easy on the ear, therefore sounding quite natural to me. Alot of stuff I listen to these days just hurts my ears.



Hey Dan, a while ago I asked this kind of question here on the forum and referred to it as a "wall of sound" - no matter how loud you turn Zimmers tracks they stay easy on the ear. Since then I try to make my tracks sound this way (adopting this idea and not necessarily rip off Hans). Unfortunately my gut feeling is that it starts from the arrangement, the samples you use, the range and goes on to mixing...etc. etc. 

my new secret weapons are:

-use more low cuts
-use high cuts now and then
-narrow the stereo image of nearly every element in the mix
-narrow the stereo image of reverb returns
-compress those nasty 30-100Hz
-make everything below 80Hz Mono


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## Peter Emanuel Roos

Andreas Moisa @ Fri Jan 20 said:


> sound very easy on the ear, therefore sounding quite natural to me. Alot of stuff I listen to these days just hurts my ears.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Dan, a while ago I asked this kind of question here on the forum and referred to it as a "wall of sound" - no matter how loud you turn Zimmers tracks they stay easy on the ear. Since then I try to make my tracks sound this way (adopting this idea and not necessarily rip off Hans). Unfortunately my gut feeling is that it starts from the arrangement, the samples you use, the range and goes on to mixing...etc. etc.
> 
> my new secret weapons are:
> 
> -use more low cuts
> -use high cuts now and then
> -narrow the stereo image of nearly every element in the mix
> -narrow the stereo image of reverb returns
> -compress those nasty 30-100Hz
> -make everything below 80Hz Mono
Click to expand...


Mmm, I'm not so sure if these tips will really help.


One clue from me: Hans uses rather short and (IMO) dense reverbs.


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## Andreas Moisa

Peter, I think that these tips which are pretty basic mixing strategies help more than other things people mentioned like:

-you need 100 years of experience
-you need a billion dollars
-you need Alan Meyerson as your mixing engineer

 You get the point.

One thing I forgot about is to use a good amount of distortion on everything


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## Patrick_Gill

Hey,



As mentioned above there really is a combination of many things here to take into consideration. Zimmer works with a team of wizards that have decades of experience and knowledge behind them. He is very specific about what he wants with access to high end equipment, orchestrators, world class players and halls etc.

At this level you can only really emulate that Zimmer-esc sound you are after. I would focus on doing so with the powers that be. Listen to scores and orchestration techniques using him as your inspiration. There is a lot of great resource here!

With enough time and practice you can produce some great results that people will love. On another note, probably the most important thing would be to be your own role model because lets face it, if a director wants the Zimmer sound and he can afford it chances are he'll go straight to the source .


Best
Patrick.,


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## JPQ

And i think is better develop own unique style even we talk cinematic music which have own cliches...


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## Ned Bouhalassa

It's a bit like asking, "how do I swim like Michael Phelps?". You can't, IMO, but in the act of trying anyways, you learn something that gets added to your own style.


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## FriFlo

I believe the distortion is more from re-recording a playback in the recording room and mixing that to the original recording than actual distortion via plugin or processor. But some of the extreme stuff may have that as well.

You may try re-recording in your bathroom and see what that does!


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## Inductance

valexnerfarious, Your question was about mixing and mastering, but I think an important part of Zimmer's sound is his choice of instruments. If we're talking about scores like The Dark Knight and Inception, you'll notice that he didn't use any woodwinds in these. Also, I believe I read somewhere that he "doubles up" on the number of cellos (I don't remember the exact number, though).


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## j_kranz

As others have said, he hires the best possible people at all stages, which is something that is next to impossible to achieve with samples alone.

His score mixer is usually Alan Meyerson, there's some great interviews out there where he throws out a few gems, one good one is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK_OHoVDvJQ&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK_OHoVD ... e=youtu.be)

He's also quite active on the gearslutz forum, where he even has some threads about what he does to samples/mockups to improve those mixes. It's worth taking a look, I believe his username is simply alanmeyerson.

EDIT: I see Peter already linked to that... it's worth checking out twice


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## Arturas

valexnerfarious,

Most of the fact why Hans sounds as it sounds is Creamware Scope Platform with DSP processing, very charming plugins and synths. It's a great system and workflow(used it a little bit), works only with windows operating system. The second fact - Zimmer have it's own recorded sample libraries(about 1TB). He have skills working on his system, doing his work well as for years he is in the industry. 

But want to share with you and others an opinion:

Don't want to sound as Zimmer. Found your own way to create a sound of yours which concept would be inspiring others. Let's move from imitating and trying to sound as somebody to creating and producing own technics!

0oD


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## Nostradamus

Andreas Moisa @ Mon Jan 23 said:


> One thing I forgot about is to use a good amount of distortion on everything



And - you guess it - more cowbells!


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## JBZeon

Alan Meyerson, from Mix Online Interview:

"On Last Samauri, there was a cue where I just couldn't get the mix right. When I went into Hans' writing room and listened, I realized he had an Inflator across his stereo bus. When I took the Inflator out, it was dead."


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## Rctec

...To answer the original question a little bit, with some random thoughts:

Start with a concept of your sonic world. Limit your palette to fit the sonic world you're trying to create - you can get lost and never write a note if you scroll through 1000 presets on average sounding synth. I got rid of most VstIs and just work with the ones who's audio engines have real depth and quality, like Zebra and Diva, or the Virus. And yes, I have a lot of great old analogue synth that I bought for next to nothing when everyone ran out to buy a DX7. 
Before writing a single note, my team and I spend a lot of time programming new sounds, sampling new instruments.
If you want things to sound big, make sure you limit your upper dynamic range. All instruments - especially percussion - sound bigger when played relatively softly. You can always turn it up. When you hit drums too hard, or any instrument is played too loud, they tend to sound only bright and thin and pingy.

I write very strategically for the spaces I record in. For instance, the Hall at Air Studio has a gallery, so I put my horns up there above the orchestra in Batman. The space you have people perform in is as important as the quality of their instruments. Players respond to good accoustics and will give you a better, more committed performance. The same goes for sampling. A dead room gives an artificially surpressed performance. It's no fun playing in a dead room. Especially brass players like "using" the reverb in the room to give them time to catch their breath between notes, so they'll have the courage and strength to play the next note stronger. I like recording in churches and halls, not studios and artificial reverb. 2000 years of architects like Brunelleschi figuring out how to amplify a sound beats the 20 years we've had of fake reverb development. But if your budget is a bit tight, try a school auditorium. Or an empty warehouse. Use your imagination. You belong to the proud fraternity of poor, starving artists. People expect you to ask them for favors in the name of the great piece of art you are about to unleash upon the world 

I got pretty good ears ( I just had them tested...I got the frequency response of a 20 year old. Just luck. I've been listening to music in my studio too loud every day for 30 years). But the biggest thing is to learn how to listen analytically. That takes time. I learned from really good producers and engineers. Two month with Trevor Horn on a bassdrum sound will either drive you crazy, or really make you understand the damn thing (I'm not sure which side I've ended up on...). I know how to engineer, I know what all those knobs do, but I know that Alan Meyerson has a gift and is better at it then me. But at least I can comunicate to him - very specifically - what and how I hear my piece. I think there is nothing worse for a composer to be at the mercy of technology, the players or a recording engineer. It's your piece of music. No one understands it better. (I always wonder...I grew up (?) working on Neves and Trident "A"s, Harrisons, etc. So I know why I pick a 1073 for certain sounds or a DBX 160 in my UAD plug-ins. If you never used the hardware, how do you know?).

I always have my monitors set to the same level. It's the only way I know I'm not kidding myself. I don't use very expensive speakers, I just use what I really know - and can get replaced easily. 
Yes, we build our own sampler, because I can hear the difference, but the comercial stuff is getting better. And my career was just fine when I was only using Akai S 1000s with 8 megs of ram.

I'm a bad player, but a good programmer. I'm forever trying to explain to great players that want to become composers that they need to treat learning and practicing the computer as seriously as they practised their guitar or piano. The computer is a musical instrument and the more virtuouistic you get on that, the better you can express your ideas.

The moment I start writing, I start mixing. Since I don't write on paper, I spend a long time making each note and sound convey the right emotion. It helps later with the live musicians. I can be very specific in my language (and I use English, not Italian) to convey to them why I want a note or phrase played a certain way. I don't make changes on the scoring stage, I don't let directors make changes with the musicians there. The recording is about getting a performance, not re-writing the cue. Nothing sounds worse then a bunch of bored musicians that had to wait while someone's changed an arrangement.

Most of the stuff I use on a daily basis is off the shelf software - and not the really expensive stuff, either. The best DAW is the one you're used to.

I don't understand why people don't sample their own stuff. I've been (more then once) asked to judge "young composer" competitions. After a while you can't hear the music for the sameness of the sample libraries. I wonder how directors or producers can tell the difference.

And no, you can't sound like me. You are not me, you are you. Just like I can't sound like any other composer. Not with any degree of authenticity.

I hardly ever get a temp in the movies I work on (Chris Nolan will not temp with anything that's not written for the movie. That whole Francis Lai thing is bull. I'm a fan, but I had never heard that score before. And if the rude ignoramus who was trying to hide behind a question mark when he called me a thief had actually analysed the score a bit, he'd have noticed that the whole thing was based on the notes C and D. Not just that riff. It's a fairly straight forward musical tension device. Seconds, anyone? And the rhythmic figure was - on purpose - a cliche. People can take large chunks of dissonance if you put a groove with it...)

I can get obsessively lost in sound design and just spend 4 days making one pathetic little sound...But it helps me think the whole piece through...

...And i procrastinate from writing by answering this question...

Hz


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## Blackster

Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> I don't understand why people don't sample their own stuff.
> 
> Hz



First of, thanks for answering.

For me, this is the most important sentence ever. It's not about someone else's music, never. It's always about yours. Your own sound and your own music. 

And to be honest, as good as all commercial sample libraries sound ... over time (maybe years, maybe decades) the idea of your own sound becomes more and more specific, even like an obsession. 

At some point it's not only motivation to create your own libraries, it's the only way to satisfy that beast inside you  call me nuts, but I didn't make this up. _-)


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## antoniopandrade

mind. blown.


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## germancomponist

Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> ...
> 
> And no, you can't sound like me. You are not me, you are you. Just like I can't sound like any other composer. Not with any degree of authenticity. ...
> 
> Hz



+1


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## chrisr

I like the concept of being a computer virtuoso, nice read, cheers!


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## Kralc

Amazing, I had a massive smile on my face while reading that post. 

Thanks so much.


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## Resoded

I read the whole thing and thought "Ah, good post, this guy seems to know what he talks about". Didn't realize who it was until the end of the post.


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## synapse21

Hans Zimmer replied to this thread? Ha ha - that is awesome.


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## tokyojoe

I don't post very often but I just had to say that was an insightful and amazing read


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## TheUnfinished

The greatest thing about Hans' response there is its simplicity. 

Read, write, learn, practise, programme, listen, discuss, play... and do all these things the way only you can.


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## Arturas

Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> ...To answer the original question a little bit, with some random thoughts:
> 
> Start with a concept of your sonic world. Limit your palette to fit the sonic world you're trying to create - you can get lost and never write a note if you scroll through 1000 presets on average sounding synth. I got rid of most VstIs and just work with the ones who's audio engines have real depth and quality, like Zebra and Diva, or the Virus. And yes, I have a lot of great old analogue synth that I bought for next to nothing when everyone ran out to buy a DX7.
> Before writing a single note, my team and I spend a lot of time programming new sounds, sampling new instruments.
> If you want things to sound big, make sure you limit your upper dynamic range. All instruments - especially percussion - sound bigger when played relatively softly. You can always turn it up. When you hit drums too hard, or any instrument is played too loud, they tend to sound only bright and thin and pingy.
> 
> I write very strategically for the spaces I record in. For instance, the Hall at Air Studio has a gallery, so I put my horns up there above the orchestra in Batman. The space you have people perform in is as important as the quality of their instruments. Players respond to good accoustics and will give you a better, more committed performance. The same goes for sampling. A dead room gives an artificially surpressed performance. It's no fun playing in a dead room. Especially brass players like "using" the reverb in the room to give them time to catch their breath between notes, so they'll have the courage and strength to play the next note stronger. I like recording in churches and halls, not studios and artificial reverb. 2000 years of architects like Brunelleschi figuring out how to amplify a sound beats the 20 years we've had of fake reverb development. But if your budget is a bit tight, try a school auditorium. Or an empty warehouse. Use your imagination. You belong to the proud fraternity of poor, starving artists. People expect you to ask them for favors in the name of the great piece of art you are about to unleash upon the world
> 
> I got pretty good ears ( I just had them tested...I got the frequency response of a 20 year old. Just luck. I've been listening to music in my studio too loud every day for 30 years). But the biggest thing is to learn how to listen analytically. That takes time. I learned from really good producers and engineers. Two month with Trevor Horn on a bassdrum sound will either drive you crazy, or really make you understand the damn thing (I'm not sure which side I've ended up on...). I know how to engineer, I know what all those knobs do, but I know that Alan Meyerson has a gift and is better at it then me. But at least I can comunicate to him - very specifically - what and how I hear my piece. I think there is nothing worse for a composer to be at the mercy of technology, the players or a recording engineer. It's your piece of music. No one understands it better. (I always wonder...I grew up (?) working on Neves and Trident "A"s, Harrisons, etc. So I know why I pick a 1073 for certain sounds or a DBX 160 in my UAD plug-ins. If you never used the hardware, how do you know?).
> 
> I always have my monitors set to the same level. It's the only way I know I'm not kidding myself. I don't use very expensive speakers, I just use what I really know - and can get replaced easily.
> Yes, we build our own sampler, because I can hear the difference, but the comercial stuff is getting better. And my career was just fine when I was only using Akai S 1000s with 8 megs of ram.
> 
> I'm a bad player, but a good programmer. I'm forever trying to explain to great players that want to become composers that they need to treat learning and practicing the computer as seriously as they practised their guitar or piano. The computer is a musical instrument and the more virtuouistic you get on that, the better you can express your ideas.
> 
> The moment I start writing, I start mixing. Since I don't write on paper, I spend a long time making each note and sound convey the right emotion. It helps later with the live musicians. I can be very specific in my language (and I use English, not Italian) to convey to them why I want a note or phrase played a certain way. I don't make changes on the scoring stage, I don't let directors make changes with the musicians there. The recording is about getting a performance, not re-writing the cue. Nothing sounds worse then a bunch of bored musicians that had to wait while someone's changed an arrangement.
> 
> Most of the stuff I use on a daily basis is off the shelf software - and not the really expensive stuff, either. The best DAW is the one you're used to.
> 
> I don't understand why people don't sample their own stuff. I've been (more then once) asked to judge "young composer" competitions. After a while you can't hear the music for the sameness of the sample libraries. I wonder how directors or producers can tell the difference.
> 
> And no, you can't sound like me. You are not me, you are you. Just like I can't sound like any other composer. Not with any degree of authenticity.
> 
> I hardly ever get a temp in the movies I work on (Chris Nolan will not temp with anything that's not written for the movie. That whole Francis Lai thing is bull. I'm a fan, but I had never heard that score before. And if the rude ignoramus who was trying to hide behind a question mark when he called me a thief had actually analysed the score a bit, he'd have noticed that the whole thing was based on the notes C and D. Not just that riff. It's a fairly straight forward musical tension device. Seconds, anyone? And the rhythmic figure was - on purpose - a cliche. People can take large chunks of dissonance if you put a groove with it...)
> 
> I can get obsessively lost in sound design and just spend 4 days making one pathetic little sound...But it helps me think the whole piece through...
> 
> ...And i procrastinate from writing by answering this question...
> 
> Hz



Thank you Hans for this, after reading your post many of composers have a chance to understand how own technics is important to reach a good results in the industry. Many of people lives eating too much of information and that information becomes a huge "STOP" for self edification.

"I'm a bad player, but a good programmer. I'm forever trying to explain to great players that want to become composers that they need to treat learning and practicing the computer as seriously as they practised their guitar or piano. The computer is a musical instrument and the more virtuouistic you get on that, the better you can express your ideas."

This is a big fact of this century. Personally I see how computer changing a piece of paper and pencil to hi end possibilities to write and realize the music which lives inside of you. Generally music is not only "do re mi"(much of people these days think it is), it's much wider world which have more serious attention on "HOW" each note sounds than which note it is. Computer gives a chance to reach that "HOW" and "piece of paper and pencil" don't.... 

"I don't understand why people don't sample their own stuff. I've been (more then once) asked to judge "young composer" competitions. After a while you can't hear the music for the sameness of the sample libraries. I wonder how directors or producers can tell the difference."

There are people who sample their own stuff, not too much, but I know some of them. I personally do my own stuff as much as my possibilities can help to do that. But what's about "young composers" competitions - lets believe, everything is changing. o=? 

Arturas


----------



## gsilbers

nice !


----------



## MacQ

Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> ...And i procrastinate from writing by answering this question...



I procrastinate as long as possible (usually reading/posting on here). If you don't commit, you can't be unhappy with what you've done, right? 

Thanks for the post! I hope it inspires some young composers.

~Stu


----------



## José Herring

Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> Start with a concept of your sonic world. Limit your palette to fit the sonic world you're trying to create -
> 
> Hz



Very good advice.

thx


----------



## JBZeon

Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> ...To answer the original question a little bit, with some random thoughts:
> 
> Start with a concept of your sonic world. Limit your palette to fit the sonic world you're trying to create - you can get lost and never write a note if you scroll through 1000 presets on average sounding synth. I got rid of most VstIs and just work with the ones who's audio engines have real depth and quality, like Zebra and Diva, or the Virus. And yes, I have a lot of great old analogue synth that I bought for next to nothing when everyone ran out to buy a DX7.
> Before writing a single note, my team and I spend a lot of time programming new sounds, sampling new instruments.
> If you want things to sound big, make sure you limit your upper dynamic range. All instruments - especially percussion - sound bigger when played relatively softly. You can always turn it up. When you hit drums too hard, or any instrument is played too loud, they tend to sound only bright and thin and pingy.
> 
> I write very strategically for the spaces I record in. For instance, the Hall at Air Studio has a gallery, so I put my horns up there above the orchestra in Batman. The space you have people perform in is as important as the quality of their instruments. Players respond to good accoustics and will give you a better, more committed performance. The same goes for sampling. A dead room gives an artificially surpressed performance. It's no fun playing in a dead room. Especially brass players like "using" the reverb in the room to give them time to catch their breath between notes, so they'll have the courage and strength to play the next note stronger. I like recording in churches and halls, not studios and artificial reverb. 2000 years of architects like Brunelleschi figuring out how to amplify a sound beats the 20 years we've had of fake reverb development. But if your budget is a bit tight, try a school auditorium. Or an empty warehouse. Use your imagination. You belong to the proud fraternity of poor, starving artists. People expect you to ask them for favors in the name of the great piece of art you are about to unleash upon the world
> 
> I got pretty good ears ( I just had them tested...I got the frequency response of a 20 year old. Just luck. I've been listening to music in my studio too loud every day for 30 years). But the biggest thing is to learn how to listen analytically. That takes time. I learned from really good producers and engineers. Two month with Trevor Horn on a bassdrum sound will either drive you crazy, or really make you understand the damn thing (I'm not sure which side I've ended up on...). I know how to engineer, I know what all those knobs do, but I know that Alan Meyerson has a gift and is better at it then me. But at least I can comunicate to him - very specifically - what and how I hear my piece. I think there is nothing worse for a composer to be at the mercy of technology, the players or a recording engineer. It's your piece of music. No one understands it better. (I always wonder...I grew up (?) working on Neves and Trident "A"s, Harrisons, etc. So I know why I pick a 1073 for certain sounds or a DBX 160 in my UAD plug-ins. If you never used the hardware, how do you know?).
> 
> I always have my monitors set to the same level. It's the only way I know I'm not kidding myself. I don't use very expensive speakers, I just use what I really know - and can get replaced easily.
> Yes, we build our own sampler, because I can hear the difference, but the comercial stuff is getting better. And my career was just fine when I was only using Akai S 1000s with 8 megs of ram.
> 
> I'm a bad player, but a good programmer. I'm forever trying to explain to great players that want to become composers that they need to treat learning and practicing the computer as seriously as they practised their guitar or piano. The computer is a musical instrument and the more virtuouistic you get on that, the better you can express your ideas.
> 
> The moment I start writing, I start mixing. Since I don't write on paper, I spend a long time making each note and sound convey the right emotion. It helps later with the live musicians. I can be very specific in my language (and I use English, not Italian) to convey to them why I want a note or phrase played a certain way. I don't make changes on the scoring stage, I don't let directors make changes with the musicians there. The recording is about getting a performance, not re-writing the cue. Nothing sounds worse then a bunch of bored musicians that had to wait while someone's changed an arrangement.
> 
> Most of the stuff I use on a daily basis is off the shelf software - and not the really expensive stuff, either. The best DAW is the one you're used to.
> 
> I don't understand why people don't sample their own stuff. I've been (more then once) asked to judge "young composer" competitions. After a while you can't hear the music for the sameness of the sample libraries. I wonder how directors or producers can tell the difference.
> 
> And no, you can't sound like me. You are not me, you are you. Just like I can't sound like any other composer. Not with any degree of authenticity.
> 
> I hardly ever get a temp in the movies I work on (Chris Nolan will not temp with anything that's not written for the movie. That whole Francis Lai thing is bull. I'm a fan, but I had never heard that score before. And if the rude ignoramus who was trying to hide behind a question mark when he called me a thief had actually analysed the score a bit, he'd have noticed that the whole thing was based on the notes C and D. Not just that riff. It's a fairly straight forward musical tension device. Seconds, anyone? And the rhythmic figure was - on purpose - a cliche. People can take large chunks of dissonance if you put a groove with it...)
> 
> I can get obsessively lost in sound design and just spend 4 days making one pathetic little sound...But it helps me think the whole piece through...
> 
> ...And i procrastinate from writing by answering this question...
> 
> Hz



Thank you very much for your words, has been a surprise to read you on this forum.

A big +1 in all yours advices.


----------



## jleckie

How gracious of you to find the time to talk to us.

Thank you for your generosity!


----------



## germancomponist

Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> .
> 
> ... I always have my monitors set to the same level. It's the only way I know I'm not kidding myself.



How true! 

I think only this (little) point is so very much important!


----------



## Mike Marino

Great read! Thanks Hans!

- Mike


----------



## valexnerfarious

This is awesome...the MAN himself replies to my post..EPIC


----------



## RiVeTeD

That is pretty cool! :D (And nice to actually take the time to respond.)

It is pretty nice to get a small insight into what goes on inside his head and how he thinks through the sound.


----------



## Udo

Looks like this post,in another thread (copy below), triggered a very informative response for us. :wink: 



Udo @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> Jaap @ Thu Feb 16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I bet you there are more bedroom composers who think they are the next Hans Zimmer then there are bedroom guitarists thinking they are the next .....
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand why. Zimmer's sound is getting sooo passé. :wink:
Click to expand...


Oh, and if you're reading this HZ, that was a serious remark. :wink:


----------



## Hannes_F

Eh?


----------



## Dan Mott

Is this a joke?

As if HZ would post here. I feel stupid for even believing for one second..... as if..... right?

It has to be a VI Control joke. You almost got me.

Nar, it wasn't him. Nice one :D


----------



## bryla

Either that, or someone's got the right wisdom and attitude. Everything he says sounds like all the other musical gurus I've talked to. They tend to have a similar mindset.

If it has to be a name for you to listen you're not listening for what is said. I don't care if it actually was Mr. Zimmer, everything in that post is wisdom and knowledge from a lot of experience.


----------



## Daniel James

Haha Dammit Hans, I have been trying to echo the exact things you said in your post for like 2 years...about the computer being an instrument and to write to your strengths...be the best version of yourself and not a sub par version of someone else, which normally ends in an argument of some sorts...You come and say it once and its +1's everywhere and "Why didnt I think of this" - granted you have the reputation to back it up, but still I'm envious 

I'm just messing with you of course. I 100% get your workflow and I love knowing how we differ in some areas, but thats what is so great about music, doing things different way for different results is a good thing (unless you have one of THOSE directors)

Dan


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

That is Mr. Zimmer himself.

Lots of awesome advice!


Awesome thread.


Best,

Tanuj.


----------



## IFM

Unlike some musicians that become to big for their britches when fame strikes Hans seems generally a really nice guy. It was an excellent read, thanks for posting!
Chris


----------



## Simplesly

MacQ @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...And i procrastinate from writing by answering this question...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I procrastinate as long as possible (usually reading/posting on here). If you don't commit, you can't be unhappy with what you've done, right?
Click to expand...


Knowing that HZ is procrastinating on message boards does not exactly motivate me to break my own bad habits!!! !


----------



## jlb

Come on own up who was it, I don't buy it. The english is slightly too good. I love the advice in it though.

Jlb


----------



## Waywyn

Dan-Jay @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> Is this a joke?
> 
> As if HZ would post here. I feel stupid for even believing for one second..... as if..... right?
> 
> It has to be a VI Control joke. You almost got me.
> 
> Nar, it wasn't him. Nice one :D



To be honest, Hans is not an unproven deity. He is human (in fact he was born in the same city as me - so this should be proof enough of his physical existence *lol*), he knows how to deal with a computer, he got tons and tons of experience, he knows how to adapt whatever things and make it work for him and apply it to music ... and what I like most, he really cares about upcoming composers .. so why it shouldn't happen that he is sharing some advice on this forum?

In fact this post contained more info than several threads combined ... and I am simply thankful for that!


----------



## Resoded

Waywyn @ 17th February 2012 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Fri Feb 17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this a joke?
> 
> As if HZ would post here. I feel stupid for even believing for one second..... as if..... right?
> 
> It has to be a VI Control joke. You almost got me.
> 
> Nar, it wasn't him. Nice one :D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest, Hans is not an unproven deity. He is human (in fact he was born in the same city as me - so this should be proof enough of his physical existence *lol*), he knows how to deal with a computer, he got tons and tons of experience, he knows how to adapt whatever things and make it work for him and apply it to music ... and what I like most, he really cares about upcoming composers .. so why it shouldn't happen that he is sharing some advice on this forum?
> 
> In fact this post contained more info than several threads combined ... and I am simply thankful for that!
Click to expand...


I think that's an interesting topic. Personally I really don't like the whole fame thing were talented people become gods somehow, so I'm reluctant to be in awe.

On the other hand, the whole reason I'm getting into film music is because of Hans's music. I remember getting the scores I loved and listened to them, especially Gladiator and the battle theme, and then one day realizing that all the scores I loved were made by the same man. It's a strange thing when someone you don't know and have never met can make such a profound impact on your decisions.


----------



## Dan Mott

Hmm. I just don't know. I feel like I'm being tricked. I guess I'll never know really.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

jlb @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> Come on own up who was it, I don't buy it. The english is slightly too good. I love the advice in it though.
> 
> Jlb



I have spoken to Hans personally and yes, his English _is_ that good.


----------



## jlb

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> jlb @ Fri Feb 17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Come on own up who was it, I don't buy it. The english is slightly too good. I love the advice in it though.
> 
> Jlb
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have spoken to Hans personally and yes, his English _is_ that good.
Click to expand...


Well if it was you Hans or not I thought it was a great post. People need to find their own sound and make their own stamp on things.

Jlb


----------



## adg21

VI Control is social hub for composers making music with computers (something Hans Zimmer is passionate about). Even Hans knows how to use the internet. If you can't believe that the famous communicate with non-famous over the internet then I have only one word. Twitter


----------



## Hannes_F

Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> Start with a concept of your sonic world. Limit your palette



Wise words, and enough to convince me that this is genuine.


----------



## RiffWraith

jlb @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> Come on own up who was it, I don't buy it. The english is slightly too good. I love the advice in it though.
> 
> Jlb



Hans' english is VERY good. Ever watch any of his interviews? He still has a decent bit of an accent, but he understands and speaks VERY well. After all, he has been living in the US for what - 30+ years?


----------



## Ed

jlb @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> Come on own up who was it, I don't buy it. The english is slightly too good. I love the advice in it though.
> 
> Jlb



I know plenty of people who's second language is English and I wouldnt even know it. 

Thanks Hans for giving your time! I think its great to know he reads this forum :D


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Ed @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> I know plenty of people who's second language is English and I wouldnt even know it.
> 
> /quote]
> 
> 
> I know plenty of people who's _first_ language is English and I wouldnt even know it.


----------



## Bunford

Dan-Jay @ Fri 20 Jan said:


> I wouldn't know what else to call it


How about an "acoustic utopia".

It's what I'm aiming for. On a serious note though, a lot of it probably has that wall of sound effect previously mentioned. Recent-ish guitar bands to have the same kind of effect have been early Oasis and Radiohead in the 90s. Everything had crispness and clarity no matter how quiet or loud it was and it all felt 'natural' (even though it was no doubt shrouded in processing).

I've taken a bit of a roundabout approach. Only kind of just started getting into composing my own music.

Instead of going straight to it, I've bought a few libraries as well as scoured around for random sample sounds around the web that hits my spot and now trying to build an orchestral template. I've settled on using Logic Pro with Kontakt 5 as my setup for mockups. I'm not just talking about a template of instruments or layout, but I'm also tweaking the inserts for each instruments, panning each orchestral section to where they'd be on a real orchestra, creating duplicates/doubles where needed and constructing layers etc and concentrating on getting a lush, full sound from each instrument/section. I'm testing how the doubles and layers sound together as I go along.

Once this is all done (and I've already spent a few weeks/months obsessing over it), I'm gonna then start writing my compositions. My approach will be so simply write all the MIDI layout and listen back to be happy with the basic sound and music, before then going into Logic's hyper editing mode to tweak the sounds in order to try and make them sound as real as possible. I feel this way, there'll be (hopefully) a nice full sound with each instrument sounding lush and hopefully it'll make the mastering process a tad easier as everything will be well editied and sitting fairly nice in the mix already.

In short, focus on the sound of each individual instrument/sample by soloing it and perfecting it and only then approach a composition once you're happy with each individual section's sound. Then, obsess as much over the MIDI score as I did with the sound and at the end master the mix.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Bunford @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> In short, focus on the sound of each individual instrument/sample by soloing it and perfecting it and only then approach a composition once you're happy with each individual section's sound.



Totally wrong approach! A mix is _not_ about making each instrument sound gorgeous, it is about making them fit together. For instance, you may cut low mid frequencies on some instruments which will make them sound less round and full but will mix better with others that are competing for the same frequncies.


----------



## jlb

Jay is right, everything is competing for the same space. 

Jlb


----------



## Inductance

Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> ...And i procrastinate from writing by answering this question... Hz



Haha... Guys, when we're in the theater watching "The Dark Knight Rises," let's remember that Mr. Zimmer was procrastinating from working on the score by talking to us here on this message board! (Assuming that's what he's working on right now, of course.)

Thanks for your thoughts and input, Hans. =o


----------



## Ed

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> I know plenty of people who's _first_ language is English and I wouldnt even know it.



haha, true!


----------



## hbuus

I'm sure Mr. Zimmer appreciates that his words of advice has now resulted in a debate as to whether it's really him posting here, including an evaluation of his English skills!  

Hz: Love your work, keep using your talent. Btw. I just used your soundtrack for The Dark Knight to help me determine which hifi loudspeakers I should get for my living room :D (ended up with a pair of Dynaudio x32 which I'm very happy with)

Best,
Henrik


----------



## midphase

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> Ed @ Fri Feb 17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know plenty of people who's second language is English and I wouldnt even know it.
> 
> /quote]
> 
> 
> I know plenty of people who's _first_ language is English and I wouldnt even know it.
Click to expand...



I know plenty of people _whose_ first language is English and I wouldn't even know it.



Geez you guys, one from Britain, one from the USA, and you're both getting corrected by an Italian?

o-[][]-o


----------



## Ian Dorsch

So damn awesome. :lol: 

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Hans. You are an inspiration.


----------



## José Herring

midphase @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Feb 17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ed @ Fri Feb 17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know plenty of people who's second language is English and I wouldnt even know it.
> 
> /quote]
> 
> 
> I know plenty of people who's _first_ language is English and I wouldnt even know it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know plenty of people _whose_ first language is English and I wouldn't even know it.
> 
> 
> 
> Geez you guys, one from Britain, one from the USA, and you're both getting corrected by an Italian?
> 
> o-[][]-o
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


:lol: :lol: !

It's hard to comprehend for Americans that somebody whose native language isn't English can speak and write English better than we can. But, all you have to do is go to Europe and you'll see remarkable things. The house cleaner who can speak 4 languages, ect.....

We're taught from an early age that America is the best, and that we as Americans are the better people. But, in all honesty, as far as education goes, America ranks down by 3rd world countries. You have to work long and hard as an adult to make up for the lack of education received here in even our most lauded universities. At least, I know, I have.


----------



## germancomponist

What a theme.... . 

Friends, so far as I know, Hans lived some years in England before he moved to LA. 

So, back to topic!


----------



## midphase

I'm not sure there is a topic anymore. Someone asked how to get the 'Zimmer sound' and he answered!

I say lock it and make Zimmer's reply a sticky!


----------



## germancomponist

A good idea for the forum. Where is Frederick?


----------



## lee

Midphase: sure theres a topic.

It's "OMG Zimmer wrote on vi-control! Will he write again? I think I'm gonna faint.. And instead of composing I'll watch this thread every 5 minutes so I can see if Hans has returned.."
:twisted: 

/Johnny


----------



## Arturas

lee @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> And instead of composing I'll watch this thread every 5 minutes so I can see if Hans has returned.."
> :twisted:
> 
> /Johnny



Good luck! ~o) 

Arturas


----------



## lee

Arturas @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> lee @ Fri Feb 17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And instead of composing I'll watch this thread every 5 minutes so I can see if Hans has returned.."
> :twisted:
> 
> /Johnny
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck! ~o)
> 
> Arturas
Click to expand...


Ha! I was referring to all the other guys on this forum....


Wait, it´s been 5 minutes since I checked last time! Argh! I´m one of them!


----------



## José Herring

Well we could discuss what he wrote.

Personally I think his idea of recording in a large church or hall instead of a studio is a great idea. I know it wreaks havoc on legato programming in the sample world, but in all honesty I don't think his personal library has legato programming and it connects up just fine. But, for the real life musician world, having come from that world, it's a great idea. Nothing inspires really great performances than playing in a really great acoustic space, and even studios like Sony, don't really have live interaction. But as far as studios go, Sony kicks ass. But, still doesn't compare to a real well designed hall or even a good church.

The best recording I heard of the New York Phil a while ago was done in a High School Gym. So I find that his auditorium or gym idea to be pretty good for the rest of us that can't afford Abbey Roads at this point in our career. Use to be there was an organization that recorded up north of LA in a gym. I should look them up again see if they're still around. Cheap too and you could bring up LA guys because it was only an hour away. And, you could go dark without too many problems.

Kind of puts VSL in its place any way as the exact wrong type of room to record in. 

Also, the idea that we should all be exploring our own sound is a great idea. As I've gotten older I've tried less and less to sound like others even when asked to, and more and more like José Herring. I mean really, at the end of my life, do I really want to look back upon it and say, "Gee, all I did was try to be somebody I'm not". Even if I die broke and nobody ever accepts the "Jose Herring" take on music. At least I can hold my head up high and say, I tried. Maybe its me but I rather go down being myself, than be hugely successful trying to be somebody I'm not. Don't we owe it to ourselves to be who we are? Music being a personal commutation, it's like trying to imitate somebody's voice. It's always going to sound like an imitation and never as good as the original.

Also, I find that settling on a sound pallet and working that towards the expression of a single idea or set of ideas to be inspiring. I get so sick of all the kitchen sink type cues, you know every cue has to have, drums, full orchestra, full choir, full ominsphere in the first :30. God that's annoying.


----------



## José Herring

Off to sample my own drums. auf wiedersehen!!


----------



## germancomponist

Jose,

it is a big different between doing recordings for a library and recording scores. 



> Kind of puts VSL in its place any way as the exact wrong type of room to record in.



Their silent stage is not silent! Their recordings sound like recordings, done in a room with cement walls. So far as I know the walls are cement walls.... . Not the best stage for best recording results......, but it is their concept.... .

A wide field! 

Edit: To be not misunderstood: Their recordings are very good, well done! I am only talking about that sound....., what I do not like so much. o-[][]-o


----------



## MacQ

josejherring @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> Also, I find that settling on a sound pallet and working that towards the expression of a single idea or set of ideas to be inspiring. I get so sick of all the kitchen sink type cues, you know every cue has to have, drums, full orchestra, full choir, full ominsphere in the first :30. God that's annoying.



I've found that the films I get absolutely REQUIRE that kind of conservative approach. I'll spend a day or two days getting the palette together (I mean EVERY instrument that will make a sound in my score), and then I can bash out a feature in like 5-6 days (~40-50 minutes of music). This is "TV-style" music, of course, so I'm not having to hit picture all over the place. It's kind of freeing, in a way, since I've committed to a specific aesthetic and it becomes more about the writing at that point. I can fly cue-to-cue not worrying about production, only the music, and since I've pre-balanced the instruments, I can get a pretty nice homogenous mix across the whole score with little effort.

I think you can coax a whole slew of emotions out of a pretty limited locked-in palette of sounds. It's challenging, but I think it's a very useful approach, especially when I'm on a tight deadline (which is always).

~Stu


----------



## José Herring

MacQ @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> I think you can coax a whole slew of emotions out of a pretty limited locked-in palette of sounds. It's challenging, but I think it's a very useful approach, especially when I'm on a tight deadline (which is always).
> 
> ~Stu



That's something that Stravinsky use to talk about too. Establishing the limits for a piece. Makes total sense to me. I think pushing against the limits is what makes music music. If you decided upon and unlimited approach you'll end up spending days bouncing between this sound and that sound, this patch and that patch not really making up your mind and ending up with scores that sound disjointed and lack cohesion.


----------



## Waywyn

germancomponist @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> Jose,
> 
> it is a big different between doing recordings for a library and recording scores.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kind of puts VSL in its place any way as the exact wrong type of room to record in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Their silent stage is not silent! Their recordings sound like recordings, done in a room with cement walls. So far as I know the walls are cement walls.... . Not the best stage for best recording results......, but it is their concept.... .
> 
> A wide field!
Click to expand...


Pardon me, but this definitely does not look like cement to me?!
http://media.soundonsound.com/sos/jul06/images/vsl5bhornssilent_l.jpg (http://media.soundonsound.com/sos/jul06 ... lent_l.jpg)


----------



## midphase

http://www.concreteideas.com/concrete/local/new-jersey/how-to-make-your-concrete-bar-top-look-like-wood (http://www.concreteideas.com/concrete/l ... -like-wood)


----------



## Waywyn

midphase @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> http://www.concreteideas.com/concrete/local/new-jersey/how-to-make-your-concrete-bar-top-look-like-wood



:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


----------



## germancomponist

Waywyn @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> Pardon me, but this definitely does not look like cement to me?!
> http://media.soundonsound.com/sos/jul06/images/vsl5bhornssilent_l.jpg (http://media.soundonsound.com/sos/jul06 ... lent_l.jpg)



Nice picture. And yes, they treated their stage. But when it comes to the low frequencies...., just use your ears and tell me what you are hearing? 

Compare it to other recordings. I am pretty sure your ears will tell you the difference!


----------



## germancomponist

midphase @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> http://www.concreteideas.com/concrete/local/new-jersey/how-to-make-your-concrete-bar-top-look-like-wood



Smile...... . o/~


----------



## José Herring

midphase @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> http://www.concreteideas.com/concrete/local/new-jersey/how-to-make-your-concrete-bar-top-look-like-wood



Dude you're killing me today!! :lol: :lol:


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

MacQ @ 17/2/2012 said:


> I think you can coax a whole slew of emotions out of a pretty limited locked-in palette of sounds. It's challenging, but I think it's a very useful approach, especially when I'm on a tight deadline (which is always).




Couldn't agree more, Stu! That's what I do too. :D


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Huh, btw, do people want to start a few more threads? I'm thinking:

John Williams Sound?

John Powell Sound?

Thomas Newman Sound?

Etc, etc, etc...


----------



## continuata

I think Hans' point about using a limited palette is especially important nowadays, there's just so many cool plugins and libraries to get lost in 

... it's almost impossible to be creative without boundaries.

I find it hard to write for a project unless I've got a deadline, the time limitation actually inspires creativity in me ... I've experienced the same with a limited palette.

A great example is Herrmann's Psycho score ... not only did he limit the whole score to just strings, but the strings were muted until the shower scene ... the score certainly doesn't feel limited by these constraints. I really love seeing people put themselves in a box and then prove they're not limited by it.

Stu


----------



## Bunford

EastWest Lurker @ Fri 17 Feb said:


> Totally wrong approach! A mix is _not_ about making each instrument sound gorgeous, it is about making them fit together. For instance, you may cut low mid frequencies on some instruments which will make them sound less round and full but will mix better with others that are competing for the same frequncies.



I think you misunderstood.

I was simply saying my approach is to get every instrument to sound what I would class as what I want. Then to compose BEFORE then doing the mastering.

The mastering process at the end would obviously allow to tweak things like you mentioned. It'll just be a bit easier with everything sounding lush in the first instance.


----------



## RiffWraith

Bunford @ Sat Feb 18 said:


> The mastering process at the end would obviously allow to tweak things like you mentioned.



No it wouldn't. Sometimes with mastering, if you really know what you are doing and have the proper tool(s), you can tweak a little here and a little there. But you are VERY limited as to what you can do, as far as what Jay mentioned: ..._cut low mid frequencies on some instruments which will make them sound less round and full but will mix better with others that are competing for the same frequncies_.

Stuff like that you really cant do at mastering. A little here, a little there, with the mix, yes. And occasionally you can surgically fix certain freqs of certain instruments. But not treating individual instruments on the whole - that's not what mastering is.

But I agree with Jay. Although you want everything to sound as good as possible individually - you want the samples to be the best they can possibly be so you have a good starting point - you wan to not worry so much about how each individual instrument sounds on it's on, but how each individual instrument sounds in the mix.

Cheers.


----------



## germancomponist

My suggestion: Visit concerts over and over again! 

At some point you have the real sound in your head! And then, compare your results done with your libs, and try to do the best to come near to the real thing..... . 

But, opssss, there is no need to come nearly to the real thing! 

The end result of your work is the most important!

You have not to sound like the real thing, but create a good sound! 

La la la.......


----------



## Ed

midphase @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> I know plenty of people _whose_ first language is English and I wouldn't even know it.
> 
> Geez you guys, one from Britain, one from the USA, and you're both getting corrected by an Italian?
> 
> o-[][]-o



I was being ironic, of course !! :oops: :lol:


----------



## Ed

germancomponist @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> Their silent stage is not silent!



I know we've been over this before, but it sounds close and dry. That shouldnt be controversial. Pointing out how it isnt 100% totally dry is kind of redundant.


----------



## germancomponist

Yeah, it has its special sound.... . 

The only one libs I know what are 100% dry are the "Samplemodelling" libs.... .


----------



## mikebarry

well that puts the large - small room debate to rest.
Satisfyingly so i might add.


----------



## Patrick_Gill

Thank you Hans for taking the time out to respond here. Great Advice!


Patrick.,


----------



## Hannes_F

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> Huh, btw, do people want to start a few more threads? I'm thinking:
> 
> John Williams Sound?
> 
> John Powell Sound?
> 
> Thomas Newman Sound?
> 
> Etc, etc, etc...



If that makes them respond in their respective threads too it would be interesting :mrgreen:


----------



## dcoscina

Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> ...To answer the original question a little bit, with some random thoughts:
> 
> The moment I start writing, I start mixing. Since I don't write on paper, I spend a long time making each note and sound convey the right emotion. It helps later with the live musicians.
> 
> Hz



I like this. It reminds me of Herrmann saying he could never separate orchestration from composing. They go hand in hand. I think Mr. Zimmer's sentiment is the 21st century equivalent. 


If he's still checking in, I would like to say big fan of Thelma & Louise. Terrific score and perfect marriage of imagery and music.


----------



## Jarkko Hietanen

I just wanted to post in a thread Hans posted in.


----------



## guitarholic

Great read!


----------



## lux

wow, just seen the thread.


----------



## dcoscina

A big composer like Zimmer posting to help out budding composers on a forum like this deserves respect.


----------



## lux

I'm so happy for Frederick. He and Cindy worked so hard to make Vi-control a place where A-list world popular composers and starters are able to meet and discuss together. This is something which probably no one has accomplished before, not that successfully. 

Luca


----------



## germancomponist

dcoscina @ Sat Feb 18 said:


> A big composer like Zimmer posting to help out budding composers on a forum like this deserves respect.



... he has no airs and graces! o/~


----------



## Polarity

That was a real surprise when I heard about it...

Thanks Hans for your time posting here!
Indeed great and invaluable advices... some really amazing.
For me you are simply great in what you do, a true inspiration
you and all your composers/arrangers/engineers you work with at RC, 
so I'll make treasure of them. 

About that "sampling himself" comment, 
I suppose it can be applied also as "make your own synth sounds/patches".

@hbuus: and a couple of Dynaudio speakers (BM5 if I remember right) are what Hans Zimmer listens to in a studio he uses when is abroad... 
don't remember where... London perhaps?
I saw that on Sound On Sound magazine.
I have the same Dynaudio monitors myself; very interesting to know that.


----------



## jleckie

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jan 19 said:


> Ryan @ Thu Jan 19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> With the right amount of money in my pocket. Then I think I would manage to get that sound to
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People think that way until they actually have to do it and find out how damn hard it really is.
> 
> money will buy you a great room with a great engineer and great players but it will not buy you knowledge and experience, both of which Hans has a lot of.
> 
> Then there is also the talent thing
Click to expand...


lol. Yeah most people forget that FIRST they need to EARN the right to afford and work with the best engineers.


----------



## jleckie

kinda funny to see some here who used to bash the heck outta Zimmer on other forums saying nice things now... :lol: :lol: 

o[]) 


(o::o)


----------



## Resoded

jleckie @ 18th February 2012 said:


> kinda funny to see some here who used to bash the heck outta Zimmer on other forums saying nice things now... :lol: :lol:
> 
> o[])
> 
> 
> (o::o)



+1


----------



## Audun Jemtland

jleckie @ Sat Feb 18 said:


> kinda funny to see some here who used to bash the heck outta Zimmer on other forums saying nice things now... :lol: :lol:
> 
> o[])
> 
> 
> (o::o)


Yeah. What's up with that? :mrgreen: 

I've often "defended" him and concluded with: Just because it looks simple on paper, doesn't mean it sounds bad. Notes "scattered" everywhere only looks good on paper.

And btw I'm more fan of Hans as a person even more than his music. And
I'll never change my signature below. And I'm not being nice, he even got a spot next to John :wink:


----------



## JT

It was a real treat to read his post. He comes across to me as a humble, yet confident man.


----------



## dcoscina

jleckie @ Sat Feb 18 said:


> kinda funny to see some here who used to bash the heck outta Zimmer on other forums saying nice things now... :lol: :lol:
> 
> o[])
> 
> 
> (o::o)



That's the beautiful thing about life- its always changing and never static.


----------



## hbuus

Polarity @ Sat Feb 18 said:


> @hbuus: and a couple of Dynaudio speakers (BM5 if I remember right) are what Hans Zimmer listens to in a studio he uses when is abroad...
> don't remember where... London perhaps?
> I saw that on Sound On Sound magazine.
> I have the same Dynaudio monitors myself; very interesting to know that.



Yes, indeed! I'm not making music anymore, but when I did, I also used Dynaudio BM5A MK2. They are a great pair of speakers.

Funny to think that HZ uses such basic gear and not some hysterically expensive stuff. Goes to show it's the man that counts, not the gear


----------



## Waywyn

hbuus @ Sun Feb 19 said:


> Funny to think that HZ uses such basic gear and not some hysterically expensive stuff. Goes to show it's the man that counts, not the gear



You know, I feel so happy to be confirmed by such a statement. Most people always think that in order something is expensive it must be the gear which makes you feel most comfortable to work with. As a guitarist I always say: It is in your fingers 
I also remember the times when people started to like my sound and asked which monitors I use ... as soon as I mentioned some cheap stereo speakers you could clearly see that their neurons tried to refuse going this logical route in their brain 

I always go with the stuff I feel most comfortable with ... and if budget is low, I try to make the best out of it ... sometimes the results are much better!

It is also the same thing I don't get why people always ask around if string library x layers well with lib y, ... but that's another story!


----------



## jlb

Ok it was Hans, thank you Hans if you do look back at this thread again. We do all appreciate your advice very much.

Jlb


----------



## ThomasL

Great read, thanks Hans. Excellent advise all over.

If it were down to selecting three things to "take away", for me it would be:


Rctec @ 2012-02-16 said:


> I'm a bad player, but a good programmer. I'm forever trying to explain to great players that want to become composers that they need to treat learning and practicing the computer as seriously as they practised their guitar or piano. The computer is a musical instrument and the more virtuouistic you get on that, the better you can express your ideas.


...and...


Rctec @ 2012-02-16 said:


> The moment I start writing, I start mixing. Since I don't write on paper, I spend a long time making each note and sound convey the right emotion.


..and...


Rctec @ 2012-02-16 said:


> And no, you can't sound like me. You are not me, you are you. Just like I can't sound like any other composer. Not with any degree of authenticity.



Those three makes me feel that what I believe in is not so bad afterall


----------



## Justus

Thank you, Hans, for chiming in!




Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> you can get lost and never write a note if you scroll through 1000 presets on average sounding synth


Did you spy on me?  



Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> If you want things to sound big, make sure you limit your upper dynamic range


Very good advice!




Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> The moment I start writing, I start mixing


Interesting. There is the theory that you should concentrate just on your performance and do the technical stuff later. Personally, since I am using a volume pedal I do the mixing while playing. I barely touch the faders anymore...




Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> And no, you can't sound like me. You are not me, you are you. Just like I can't sound like any other composer. Not with any degree of authenticity.


That's maybe the most important thing to understand when building a career as a composer...and the most difficult thing to achieve...


----------



## Audun Jemtland

But on the topic of Hans Zimmer sound...What are people really asking when they want to "become" him? Or mimic his sound?
I always used to cry about not having hans zimmer sounds.And bought the sampled guitars to "become him" etc.

Personally it was a lack of experience of making music and therefore a lack of confidence. If you've had a hero growing up, you've probably noticed that the more experienced and skilled you become, the less you look up to your hero. Suddenly YOU might become your own hero (more confident)

Thus going from wanting hans' sound to getting your own. 

Isn't it really an impatient wish to be the shit over night? :mrgreen: 
aka: "How to get the zimmer sound?" 

Personally, wanting that sound for me was because I didn't have my own yet.

And don't forget that even though you can't sound like Zimmer, Zimmer can't sound like you :wink:


----------



## noiseboyuk

Been on holiday for a few days, great to read this. Hope you can find the time to keep dropping in from time to time Hans, terrific to get someone of your calibre giving tips directly. Also good to hear you set the record straight on that daft Francis Lai thread!


----------



## Bunford

Audun Jemtland @ Sat 18 Feb said:


> Yeah. What's up with that? :mrgreen:
> 
> I've often "defended" him and concluded with: Just because it looks simple on paper, doesn't mean it sounds bad. Notes "scattered" everywhere only looks good on paper.
> 
> And btw I'm more fan of Hans as a person even more than his music.


I'm a fan of his music, but also must add that I am a fan of him as a person! My favourite song, which would look VERY simple on paper is 528491 off the Inception soundtrack. I just love the increasing intensity of it even though nothing much really changes throughout it apart from subtleties.

The several interviews on YouTube where he lets in people into his studio to interview him on scores such as Inception and Dark Knight inspired me massively. Not just cos what he talks about just makes sense, but also cos he seems like a down to earth and, well, a normal person.

Interestingly, I only started really liking his music after seeing interviews of him etc. So, that may mean I too am more of a fan of Hans as a person than his music!?


----------



## dcoscina

I love watching interviews with HZ. And I love that tour he gives to John Carpenter on YouTube. It's classic! 

Like the late Jerry Goldsmith, he's very down to earth and real in interviews. You never feel like he's putting it on, but that he's talking to you like he would anyone.


----------



## Audun Jemtland

Bunford @ Mon Feb 20 said:


> Interestingly, I only started really liking his music after seeing interviews of him etc. So, that may mean I too am more of a fan of Hans as a person than his music!?


I think you are yes :mrgreen: 
I have immensively huge respect for people like that. I can't have enough of them. No wonder that he's THE man to work with cause the way he is are a sign that he's wonderful to work with...sweet,humble and just genuine and honest.
One thing that strikes me is that if celebrities engage in the community maybe people will judge them as equals instead of superheroes. The fact that we often put them 'up there' forces them to isolate themselves. If we don't treat them as king they can surf together with us:D Even a king would die to be treated normal and non-majestic. Must be exhaustingly formal and boring.



dcoscina @ Mon Feb 20 said:


> I love watching interviews with HZ. And I love that tour he gives to John Carpenter on YouTube. It's classic!
> 
> Like the late Jerry Goldsmith, he's very down to earth and real in interviews. You never feel like he's putting it on, but that he's talking to you like he would anyone.


+100
Love insight into composers minds in general.


----------



## midphase

Audun Jemtland @ Mon Feb 20 said:


> I have immensively huge respect for people like that. I can't have enough of them. No wonder that he's THE man to work with cause the way he is are a sign that he's wonderful to work with...sweet,humble and just genuine and honest.




Ok...don't misread this--I don't know Hans personally, he's probably a super nice guy, I honestly have no idea. This is not meant to target Hans, it's purely a response to Audun's post.

If your evaluation for someone's personality and moral compass is based on interviews and other public appearances, you're pretty naive. Celebrities (in general) pay huge amounts of money to PR firms and go out of their ways to appear like the most humble, well balanced, honest and sweet human beings. It's generally not until some shit goes down that you get to peek into what's behind the public persona. I'm sure tons of people thought OJ Simpson was a super great guy before he killed his wife. People probably thought Phil Spector was an amazing human being before he shot a woman in the head. The public in general loved Mel Gibson in the 90's and I'm sure most people's impressions were of a well balanced and humble human being.

Once again, I'm not saying that Hans is not the super nice guy that he comes across as, he probably is. I'm just pointing out that the way celebrities are perceived in public, and the way they are behind closed doors might not necessarily be the same thing.

Having talked to some assistants of big name composers (not Hans, I actually don't know anyone who knows him personally), I can tell you that some of the publicly nicest guys in the music scoring world are kind of dicks to the people they work with (allegedly).

Just trying to bring some perspective to the discussion (which I once again would urge Frederick to lock before it degenerates into something bad).


----------



## Guy Bacos

midphase @ Mon Feb 20 said:


> Audun Jemtland @ Mon Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have immensively huge respect for people like that. I can't have enough of them. No wonder that he's THE man to work with cause the way he is are a sign that he's wonderful to work with...sweet,humble and just genuine and honest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok...don't misread this--I don't know Hans personally, he's probably a super nice guy, I honestly have no idea. This is not meant to target Hans, it's purely a response to Audun's post.
> 
> If your evaluation for someone's personality and moral compass is based on interviews and other public appearances, you're pretty naive. Celebrities (in general) pay huge amounts of money to PR firms and go out of their ways to appear like the most humble, well balanced, honest and sweet human beings. It's generally not until some [email protected]#t goes down that you get to peek into what's behind the public persona. I'm sure tons of people thought OJ Simpson was a super great guy before he killed his wife. People probably thought Phil Spector was an amazing human being before he shot a woman in the head. The public in general loved Mel Gibson in the 90's and I'm sure most people's impressions were of a well balanced and humble human being.
> 
> Once again, I'm not saying that Hans is not the super nice guy that he comes across as, he probably is. I'm just pointing out that the way celebrities are perceived in public, and the way they are behind closed doors might not necessarily be the same thing.
> 
> Having talked to some assistants of big name composers (not Hans, I actually don't know anyone who knows him personally), I can tell you that some of the publicly nicest guys in the music scoring world are kind of dicks to the people they work with (allegedly).
> 
> Just trying to bring some perspective to the discussion (which I once again would urge Frederick to lock before it degenerates into something bad).
Click to expand...


And sometimes, it's the other way around too.


----------



## midphase

Guy Bacos @ Mon Feb 20 said:


> And sometimes, it's the other way around too.



You mean people go out of their way to come across as assholes to the public but in the privacy of their homes they're the nicest people you can ever meet?

Yeah, I suppose that's possible...maybe that's what Newt Gingrich does!


----------



## Guy Bacos

midphase @ Mon Feb 20 said:


> You mean people go out of their way to come across as assholes to the public but in the privacy of their homes they're the nicest people you can ever meet?



No.


----------



## fullbirdmusic

Haha, I was wondering when something like that would happen! Yes, famous people know how to use the internet


----------



## noiseboyuk

Kays - well, happily in the case of Hans at least, I do know someone who worked with him and said he was a terrific guy. And anyone who happily poses for the Sound On Sound portrait with a packet of Hob Nobs in his hand is fine in my book.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

This is a bizzare world indeed!

I mean, Mr. Zimmer comes down here and gives really good advice that is really worth something, coming from a top composer in the business and all we can talk about is if he is a good human being or not?

This is not about PR, interviews or whatever it is some people are talking about here.

Its just great advice from the master himself, responding to the original poster really. It is like a little internet Masterclass and also inspiring!

I would focus on what Hans has left us with in his words and go off exploring the world of music...


Best,

Tanuj.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Whether one is advised or not, it is still his decision bottom line to say what he wants, and in this case, Hans showed much class with some very thoughtful points and commentaries, and he certainly had no obligation of doing this. If famous people want to be helpful and nice, let's not question their motives as long as we have no reason to do so, that's quite unfair to even bring this up, especially on the same thread.


----------



## Audun Jemtland

midphase @ Mon Feb 20 said:


> Audun Jemtland @ Mon Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have immensively huge respect for people like that. I can't have enough of them. No wonder that he's THE man to work with cause the way he is are a sign that he's wonderful to work with...sweet,humble and just genuine and honest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok...don't misread this--I don't know Hans personally, he's probably a super nice guy, I honestly have no idea. This is not meant to target Hans, it's purely a response to Audun's post.
> 
> If your evaluation for someone's personality and moral compass is based on interviews and other public appearances, you're pretty naive. Celebrities (in general) pay huge amounts of money to PR firms and go out of their ways to appear like the most humble, well balanced, honest and sweet human beings. It's generally not until some [email protected]#t goes down that you get to peek into what's behind the public persona. I'm sure tons of people thought OJ Simpson was a super great guy before he killed his wife. People probably thought Phil Spector was an amazing human being before he shot a woman in the head. The public in general loved Mel Gibson in the 90's and I'm sure most people's impressions were of a well balanced and humble human being.
> 
> Once again, I'm not saying that Hans is not the super nice guy that he comes across as, he probably is. I'm just pointing out that the way celebrities are perceived in public, and the way they are behind closed doors might not necessarily be the same thing.
> 
> Having talked to some assistants of big name composers (not Hans, I actually don't know anyone who knows him personally), I can tell you that some of the publicly nicest guys in the music scoring world are kind of dicks to the people they work with (allegedly).
> 
> Just trying to bring some perspective to the discussion (which I once again would urge Frederick to lock before it degenerates into something bad).
Click to expand...

I AM naive :D But on Hans in particular I have a good hunch. But you're absolutely right in what you're saying midphase. But I take into consideration the people he's brought along and not abandoned etc. + the rumours. (yes rumours often don't have truth in them,but as Guy said,it can be the other way around)
Though I have my same views on composers in general. Isolated pricks who doesn't want to share ANYTHING with anyone. Grumpy people Until opposite is proven... 

I only know of 1 composer in person that are nice. But I got to know him through someone....So maybe they can come off careless about anyone but kind to someone that knows their friend? Like a pre-acceptance.


I think this is more about human psycology than any person in partiular. We all tend to start off as unconscious people with not much self insight. And the more experience,insight and awareness we get the better people we become.
I assume there's a significant difference between 'rainman' Hans and inception hans.
IF a composer starts off as grumpy,then I would think that in time they would soften up a bit.
This is very interesting. Replace 'bad person' with HARD to work with. I know of a very talented composer who has a good network,he produces ALOT for everyone and everything,BUT he CAN't read or write notes,and he is slow and exentric :D But still he's THE person to go to.

_"-Having talked to some assistants of big name composers (not Hans, I actually don't know anyone who knows him personally), I can tell you that some of the publicly nicest guys in the music scoring world are kind of dicks to the people they work with (allegedly)."_ 
Do you know why anyone wants to work with them? And how can they treat people like that. Or is there a couple of people who's responsible for payment, that are treated nicely?


----------



## Audun Jemtland

midphase @ Mon Feb 20 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Mon Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And sometimes, it's the other way around too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You mean people go out of their way to come across as assholes to the public but in the privacy of their homes they're the nicest people you can ever meet?
> 
> Yeah, I suppose that's possible...maybe that's what Newt Gingrich does!
Click to expand...

No they're the nicest people ever,period. But in the media they are given a bad name.
(in Guy's example)

No, don't degenerate this into something bad.



*On topic: I think Hans has heard and read ALOT about people wanting to sound like him. And that's why he finally wrote what he did.* But I think what people are really asking is: How can I sound like Zimmer with JUST samples? It's sometimes hard to express oneself. "Hans Zimmer sound" has for some become a substitute for the word "BIG" sound.


----------



## Guy Bacos

And what I meant when I said it's sometime the other way around, (without going wacko), some actors, for example, give sometimes bad impressions, for whatever reasons, they don't like doing interviews, they may be caught by paparazzi in their worst moments and when shoved a mic in front of their faces while they just want to pick up their kid at school or take a walk in the park, they may give a cold impression. This is the other side.


----------



## respho

Thanks Mr Zimmer. Wow, did I just say that?


----------



## Nick Phoenix

It's a great compliment to the forum that Hans came on here and offered advise. Let's rise to the occasion and be worthy of such interesting words from a brilliant guy. The majority of the planet uses forums as a way to vent a lifetime of frustrations. Let's not be those guys. I worked with Hans for a bit and am not good at sounding like him. And I am happier for it, even though I am a huge fan. Forge your own path. It won't be easy.


----------



## Consona

Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> I've been (more then once) asked to judge "young composer" competitions. After a while you can't hear the music for the sameness of the sample libraries.


Interesting. This is exactly opposite way I perceive music composition. From my point of view, let every composer has the same collection of sounds at disposal. Then he has to show, what he is capable to do with it.

Take some orchestra with late romantic instrumentation and let it play all that great stuff from Dvorak, Brahms, Wagner, etc. They can catch your attention even though the sound is still the same. IMHO, it's more about musical ideas of composer, than about the sound.

Some examples of what I mean:
http://youtu.be/EsYjN4wFw4o
http://youtu.be/LXGBh_3J25g
http://youtu.be/1iizAqJWB4Q?hd=1
http://youtu.be/s4EqvJk5sf0?hd=1
Those compositions are brilliant. I can listen to them all day over majority of pieces with awesome modern sound. (Although I love the sound of The Dark Knight, Sherlock Holmes or Inception. And I love these soundtracks themselves, not just their sound. They contain great ideas and have delightful and original production. But this not applies to majority of tonish "huge-sounding" tracks of today, imo of course.)

I can understand why sound can be very important, especially in filmmaking industry. I really like the idea that specific film has specific sound like Inception. But I wanted to mention, do not forget about composition itself. Recent era with synthesizers which can create really interesting and idiomatic sounds can often tends composer to focus on color of the piece than composition itself.

But then again, this is _Hans Zimmer Sound?_ thread, so sorry for little off-topic.


----------



## Audun Jemtland

But regarding the 'sound'. Aside from the tips he gave. I think the sound has alot to do with everything besides that.The sound is the catchiness,the notes that are there and why,the little details,the reason why he does what what he does,and the huch of just doing what feels right.

I think the Zimmer sound comes from his enthusiasm and bursting joy of almost getting the theme.Talking to the directors in a non-musical way. Getting pumped and influenced by art,books,other music,conversations,(procrastination?)food,instruments,toying around with plug-ins.

All the things that make him head in a specific direction (conciously and/or unconciously) It creates itself it seems out of "nothing", and as a composer you happen to be there ready with your fingers, channeling the stream of feed from the fountain of creativity.

Whenever I have something I can feel it in my "gut" (intuition) When I'm on to something I am in a jacked up yet relaxed state in the moment. If you force it,it doesn't come,if you relax and play around suddenly it 'comes'.

Why we do what we do I don't think we even know ourselves. 

I have gotten nice themes just out of visualizing and listening to how the director explained what the movie is. I actually think it has nothing to do with music at first. It's how playful,reflective,delirious,happy,and creative you are. _Your current state of being..._ The emotional state

*What people are subliminally asking I think is : "how can I get Hans Zimmers conciousness?"*

It's a sign they have yet to find themselves,both musically and personally... But that's just my 2 cents.


----------



## autopilot

I think it's kind of like a dream .. within a dreamm.... within a dreamm ... or somethin


----------



## midphase

What are you guys smoking?

P.S.
Can I have some?


----------



## Kralc

Guys, I'm planning an extraction on Hans Zimmer. We go in, we find all the secrets. If anyone has experience, great, as I'm guessing Hans' mind has been militarized.
P.S. Please don't bring any dead wives in, experience has taught me that they mess stuff up.


----------



## Jean Paul

Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> ...
> If you want things to sound big, make sure you limit your upper dynamic range. All instruments - especially percussion - sound bigger when played relatively softly. You can always turn it up. When you hit drums too hard, or any instrument is played too loud, they tend to sound only bright and thin and pingy.
> 
> Hz



Excellent post and real great advice from HZ. 

On that topic of limiting the upper dynamics, that came a bit of a surprise to me. I always thought that the energy in any sound is concentrated mainly in the lower frequencies and thats the range you need to limit heavily, not the upper frequencies. So when I insert a multi-band compressor (like the L3) on the mix bus, I always have the priorities set for the lower frequencies. 

Is that what he meant or did I misunderstand his advice?
thanks
JP


----------



## noiseboyuk

Jean Paul @ Thu Feb 23 said:


> Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> If you want things to sound big, make sure you limit your upper dynamic range. All instruments - especially percussion - sound bigger when played relatively softly. You can always turn it up. When you hit drums too hard, or any instrument is played too loud, they tend to sound only bright and thin and pingy.
> 
> Hz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent post and real great advice from HZ.
> 
> On that topic of limiting the upper dynamics, that came a bit of a surprise to me. I always thought that the energy in any sound is concentrated mainly in the lower frequencies and thats the range you need to limit heavily, not the upper frequencies. So when I insert a multi-band compressor (like the L3) on the mix bus, I always have the priorities set for the lower frequencies.
> 
> Is that what he meant or did I misunderstand his advice?
> thanks
> JP
Click to expand...


Yeah, this was good advice. I don't think it applies to stuff like the L3 though, the point (as I understand it) is to play the instruments themselves at a lower velocity, and boost their relative volume if needed.

I guess the problem with that if you push it too far - particularly in percussion - is that you might be quick to build an awful lot of extreme LF that could get muddy. Even then I don't think a maximizer is the best place to deal with that, I think it's more about choosing the right instrumentation and balance in the mix, roll the low LF off competing elements for example.

The other issue (maybe) is that if writing for film you have so much more dynamic range to play with than if you are writing for TV and you can let rip. The sky's the limit in film - you can have a kick ass low velocity high volume 50hz taiko rumble that fully opens the audience's bowels. However, PPM6 is the limit in TV, and that's a huge problem with LF in particular (never mind that's likely where the dialogue is as well) since it'll shift the meters to the max before you really perceive it. Getting impact is a real challenge - choosing your moments and spotting carefully are really important.


----------



## Andreas Moisa

Hey Jean Paul I guess you did. What's meant is that hitting a drum soft and turning up this signal has more impact than hitting a drum very hard.

BTW, I would like to listen to one of Hans' MIDI Mockups, are there any around?


----------



## Jean Paul

Right! thanks for clearing this up guys. 

I saw the word upper 'limiting' and my mind went straight to compression and limiters! Yeah, low velocities makes much more sense when I re-read it again...he makes that explicitly clear in the continuation.. Very true for dynamic ranges in film vs. tv 

+1 on any Hans midi mock-ups... even a small bit would be very helpful and educative


----------



## ysnyvz

Jean Paul @ Thu Feb 23 said:


> +1 on any Hans midi mock-ups... even a small bit would be very helpful and educative


----------



## rpaillot

(edit)


----------



## Ed

Jean Paul @ Thu Feb 23 said:


> +1 on any Hans midi mock-ups... even a small bit would be very helpful and educative



Gladiator soundtrack "more music" had the sampled version of Gladiator Waltz. Its called _"original synth demo_". On Amazon go to track 12 and look for "The Gladiator Waltz". Its not the best clip and its too short, but you can buy it individually it seems. Its much much more polished than those Pirates sketches. 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gladiator-More-Music-Motion-Picture/dp/B000058TJG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330007880&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gladiator-More- ... 880&amp;sr=8-1)

I tried to find it on YT but it doesnt seem to be there. 

Not sure why people talk about live instruments about being his "sound", the live stuff makes his music sound better but thats not what people are talking about when they talk about his "sound".


----------



## Danny_Owen

Ed- if you have Spotify the full track is number 12 on disc 2 of this: http://open.spotify.com/track/5vk7ZSiv1ncel3mBRUHW26


----------



## Jean Paul

rpaillot @ Thu Feb 23 said:


> (edit)


Awesome link


----------



## Audun Jemtland

Andreas Moisa @ Thu Feb 23 said:


> Hey Jean Paul I guess you did. What's meant is that hitting a drum soft and turning up this signal has more impact than hitting a drum very hard.
> 
> BTW, I would like to listen to one of Hans' MIDI Mockups, are there any around?


Never seen any. This is the only stuff I've heard he has:

http://www.sequel-music.net/en/check_ou ... ns_edition

________________________________________________________________

you can listen to a comparison here of "jack sparrow" track from POTC2 : the first extract is the final product. The second extract is the original synth mockup :

http://annecywebtv.free.fr/mockup/potc2-orchestral.mp3

http://annecywebtv.free.fr/mockup/potc2-synth.mp3

___________________________________________________

i've another extracts if you want

http://annecywebtv.free.fr/mockup/potc1-orchestral.mp3

http://annecywebtv.free.fr/mockup/potc1-synth.mp3


http://annecywebtv.free.fr/mockup/potc4-orchestral.mp3

http://annecywebtv.free.fr/mockup/potc4-synth.mp3
________________________________________________

And here's an extract of that famous Gladiator synth mockup demo ( with the original album recording toward the end ) 

http://annecywebtv.free.fr/extrait-the- ... -waltz.mp3


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira

interesting thing...

hans's mockups doesn't sound much realistic (o)


----------



## HDJK

dcoscina @ Sat Feb 18 said:


> A big composer like Zimmer posting to help out budding composers on a forum like this deserves respect.



It sure does. Some great advice in that one post!


----------



## maraskandi

A bust of Liszt at RC deserves a massive +1 for that alone, respect! And kudos to Hans for his dedication to his craft.

For love of music I am grateful!

Hans Zimmer seems sound.

(in UK sound=to have integrity)


----------



## Vision

This was an _amazing_ thread to me.. right up until this clown Gabriel Oliveira showed up with his blackface avatar. 

Are.. you.. serious..

Folks.. I can't let that slide. It's not cute, and it shouldn't be tolerated here. V.I. Moderators need to step up. I highly respect this forum, and I'd really like to keep it that way.

-p


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira

Vision @ Wed Feb 29 said:


> This was an _amazing_ thread to me.. right up until this clown Gabriel Oliveira showed up with his blackface avatar.
> 
> Are.. you.. serious..
> 
> Folks.. I can't let that slide. It's not cute, and it shouldn't be tolerated here. V.I. Moderators need to step up. I highly respect this forum, and I'd really like to keep it that way.
> 
> -p



wtf? (o)


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Actually, that avatar is Al Jolson, once known as 'The World's Greatest Entertainer'. He was the first voice in movies, starring in The Jazz Singer.

See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jolson

That said, Gabriel, you are asking for trouble, as some members may find this image offensive. There are many other photos of Al Jolson, if he's one of your favourite actors.


----------



## yellowstudio

Lifted verbatim from the above Wikipedia article:



> He enjoyed performing in blackface makeup – a theatrical convention since the mid-19th century. With his unique and dynamic style of singing black music, like jazz and blues, he was later credited with single-handedly introducing African-American music to white audiences.[1] As early as 1911 he became known for fighting against anti-black discrimination on Broadway. Jolson's well-known theatrics and his promotion of equality on Broadway helped pave the way for many black performers, playwrights, and songwriters, including Cab Calloway, Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Fats Waller, and Ethel Waters.



That said, I can see why somebody would find that offensive. However, I'd hazard a guess that Gabriel didn't even know what "blackface" is or what it represents and chose this avatar simply because of the funny surprised face and not meaning to be disrespectful, am I right :?: 

Back to topic, my head is still spinning from reading an actual HZ post on here (actually several, but this one was by far the most informative). Just two points, Hans mentions "finding/creating your own sound" and of course "making your own samples". I think (although I'm not involved with the industry) that for young cinematic composers, that's the most difficult thing, especially when they're having to fulfill certain expectations of directors and deadlines to keep. It takes a lot of time, learning and experimentation to find one's own sound (I know for sure I haven't found mine yet), and if one has to pay the bills as well, it's an act of balance. And making one's own samples is no small feat, as Hans will be the first to acknowledge. Also, our culture of abundance sometimes makes it hard for us, to identify exactly what we NEED (now referring to sample libs), as opposed to what we WANT. I think you all know what I'm talking about 

so long
Andreas


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira

hey people!

googled "blackface" and find out that you (US guys) consider this as a racist manifestation... SORRY about my ex-avatar! 

in Brazil we use blackface on Maracatu and other cultural expressions and it has NOTHING to do with racism.

next time be more gentle with me and other foreigners (we have no obligation to know what a face painted in black means in your culture)


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

I like your new avatar!


----------



## Vision

Not to drag this on.. 

I know who Al Jolson is. Respectfully, I don't need a wikipedia bio to tell me that, "actually" he was a great actor.. insinuating that he was some sort of pioneer to afro-americans(?). That's just naive, and entirely missing the point. 

Some of you guys know me personally.. I'm an easy going person. I wouldn't mention it unless it was something disturbing. I'm not here to give a history lesson. I'm not an activist. But, please don't justify a wikipedia definition of an american blackface entertainer. 

I understand cultural ignorance.. I would say use better judgment. You can't easily find a picture like that on google, and not know what the cultural significance behind it is. 

Look, I'm sorry for having to bring this up on a great thread. But don't expect any self respecting American black person to ignore this.


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Feb 29 said:


> I like your new avatar!




thank you, mister Ned... where's your marshall? :mrgreen:


----------



## Peter Alexander

Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> ...To answer the original question a little bit, with some random thoughts:
> 
> Start with a concept of your sonic world. Limit your palette to fit the sonic world you're trying to create - you can get lost and never write a note if you scroll through 1000 presets on average sounding synth. I got rid of most VstIs and just work with the ones who's audio engines have real depth and quality, like Zebra and Diva, or the Virus. And yes, I have a lot of great old analogue synth that I bought for next to nothing when everyone ran out to buy a DX7.
> Before writing a single note, my team and I spend a lot of time programming new sounds, sampling new instruments.
> If you want things to sound big, make sure you limit your upper dynamic range. All instruments - especially percussion - sound bigger when played relatively softly. You can always turn it up. When you hit drums too hard, or any instrument is played too loud, they tend to sound only bright and thin and pingy.
> 
> I write very strategically for the spaces I record in. For instance, the Hall at Air Studio has a gallery, so I put my horns up there above the orchestra in Batman. The space you have people perform in is as important as the quality of their instruments. Players respond to good accoustics and will give you a better, more committed performance. The same goes for sampling. A dead room gives an artificially surpressed performance. It's no fun playing in a dead room. Especially brass players like "using" the reverb in the room to give them time to catch their breath between notes, so they'll have the courage and strength to play the next note stronger. I like recording in churches and halls, not studios and artificial reverb. 2000 years of architects like Brunelleschi figuring out how to amplify a sound beats the 20 years we've had of fake reverb development. But if your budget is a bit tight, try a school auditorium. Or an empty warehouse. Use your imagination. You belong to the proud fraternity of poor, starving artists. People expect you to ask them for favors in the name of the great piece of art you are about to unleash upon the world
> 
> I got pretty good ears ( I just had them tested...I got the frequency response of a 20 year old. Just luck. I've been listening to music in my studio too loud every day for 30 years). But the biggest thing is to learn how to listen analytically. That takes time. I learned from really good producers and engineers. Two month with Trevor Horn on a bassdrum sound will either drive you crazy, or really make you understand the damn thing (I'm not sure which side I've ended up on...). I know how to engineer, I know what all those knobs do, but I know that Alan Meyerson has a gift and is better at it then me. But at least I can comunicate to him - very specifically - what and how I hear my piece. I think there is nothing worse for a composer to be at the mercy of technology, the players or a recording engineer. It's your piece of music. No one understands it better. (I always wonder...I grew up (?) working on Neves and Trident "A"s, Harrisons, etc. So I know why I pick a 1073 for certain sounds or a DBX 160 in my UAD plug-ins. If you never used the hardware, how do you know?).
> 
> I always have my monitors set to the same level. It's the only way I know I'm not kidding myself. I don't use very expensive speakers, I just use what I really know - and can get replaced easily.
> Yes, we build our own sampler, because I can hear the difference, but the comercial stuff is getting better. And my career was just fine when I was only using Akai S 1000s with 8 megs of ram.
> 
> I'm a bad player, but a good programmer. I'm forever trying to explain to great players that want to become composers that they need to treat learning and practicing the computer as seriously as they practised their guitar or piano. The computer is a musical instrument and the more virtuouistic you get on that, the better you can express your ideas.
> 
> The moment I start writing, I start mixing. Since I don't write on paper, I spend a long time making each note and sound convey the right emotion. It helps later with the live musicians. I can be very specific in my language (and I use English, not Italian) to convey to them why I want a note or phrase played a certain way. I don't make changes on the scoring stage, I don't let directors make changes with the musicians there. The recording is about getting a performance, not re-writing the cue. Nothing sounds worse then a bunch of bored musicians that had to wait while someone's changed an arrangement.
> 
> Most of the stuff I use on a daily basis is off the shelf software - and not the really expensive stuff, either. The best DAW is the one you're used to.
> 
> I don't understand why people don't sample their own stuff. I've been (more then once) asked to judge "young composer" competitions. After a while you can't hear the music for the sameness of the sample libraries. I wonder how directors or producers can tell the difference.
> 
> And no, you can't sound like me. You are not me, you are you. Just like I can't sound like any other composer. Not with any degree of authenticity.
> 
> I hardly ever get a temp in the movies I work on (Chris Nolan will not temp with anything that's not written for the movie. That whole Francis Lai thing is bull. I'm a fan, but I had never heard that score before. And if the rude ignoramus who was trying to hide behind a question mark when he called me a thief had actually analysed the score a bit, he'd have noticed that the whole thing was based on the notes C and D. Not just that riff. It's a fairly straight forward musical tension device. Seconds, anyone? And the rhythmic figure was - on purpose - a cliche. People can take large chunks of dissonance if you put a groove with it...)
> 
> I can get obsessively lost in sound design and just spend 4 days making one pathetic little sound...But it helps me think the whole piece through...
> 
> ...And i procrastinate from writing by answering this question...
> 
> Hz



Thank you Hans for taking the time to come here and post. 

As a short story to add to what you said, I worked for Henry Mancini until he died. One day when he was working on a cue I asked him if he ever wrote a cue or score with a specific studio in mind. He put down his pencil, looked up at me and and brusquely answered, "Never!" 

Thank you again for your perspective and your time to post this.


----------



## Ed

Gabriel Oliveira @ Thu Feb 23 said:


> interesting thing...
> 
> hans's mockups doesn't sound much realistic (o)



Which ones are you listening to?


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira

Here, Ed!

Sounds awesome! But realistic? IMO, no 




Audun Jemtland @ Thu Feb 23 said:


> ________________________________________________________________
> 
> you can listen to a comparison here of "jack sparrow" track from POTC2 : the first extract is the final product. The second extract is the original synth mockup :
> 
> http://annecywebtv.free.fr/mockup/potc2-orchestral.mp3
> 
> http://annecywebtv.free.fr/mockup/potc2-synth.mp3
> 
> ___________________________________________________
> 
> i've another extracts if you want
> 
> http://annecywebtv.free.fr/mockup/potc1-orchestral.mp3
> 
> http://annecywebtv.free.fr/mockup/potc1-synth.mp3
> 
> 
> http://annecywebtv.free.fr/mockup/potc4-orchestral.mp3
> 
> http://annecywebtv.free.fr/mockup/potc4-synth.mp3
> ________________________________________________
> 
> And here's an extract of that famous Gladiator synth mockup demo ( with the original album recording toward the end )
> 
> http://annecywebtv.free.fr/extrait-the- ... -waltz.mp3


----------



## Ed

Gabriel Oliveira @ Fri Mar 02 said:


> Here, Ed!
> 
> Sounds awesome! But realistic? IMO, no



Well certainly not the POTC YT video no. Are you someone who thinks the finished product doesnt sound realistic either? Of course there are some who will agree with you but usually they will also say all sampled music doesn't sound realistic and Zimmers finished music doesnt either.


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira

Ed @ Fri Mar 02 said:


> Are you someone who thinks the finished product doesnt sound realistic either?



no i'm not, samples sounds realistic (limited realism, but some realism)

what i'm saying is that i already heard (here at VI-C) more realistic mockups than zimmer's

gotcha? 8)


----------



## germancomponist

Tzzzzzzzzz, you are kidding, aren't you?

If Hans and any other composer compose a score, knowing that it will be played later by a real orchestra, for what in the world would he/we spend time to sound more realistic with the samples?


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira

germancomponist @ Fri Mar 02 said:


> If Hans and any other composer compose a score, knowing that it will be played later by a real orchestra, for what in the world would he/we spend time to sound more realistic with the samples?



that's the point 


(but this not invalidate my previous post)


----------



## germancomponist

And remember: Hans is not writing for samples!

All people who write for a real orchestra are listening in their head to a real orchestra, and not to the limited samples.


----------



## everbeatz

> If you want things to sound big, make sure you limit your upper dynamic range. All instruments - especially percussion - sound bigger when played relatively softly. You can always turn it up. When you hit drums too hard, or any instrument is played too loud, they tend to sound only bright and thin and pingy.



It'd be great if anyone could expand on this part of Hans' quote


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Which part do you find is not clear? You can test what Hans is talking about by playing a multi-velocity timpani.


----------



## wst3

I'll take a stab at it...

When you pluck a guitar string or strike a drum head you set it in motion. Experience has shown me that the differences in timbre are much more obvious when I play lightly. When I really smack the thing I get one sound, and that sound is the same no matter how hard I play, above a certain threshold.

For guitars it comes down to over-driving the top. It has a limited range of motion, and once you reach the maximum excursion driving it harder has no effect. 

I would guess that the same thing is true for most percussion instruments.

Exactly how this translates to sampled instruments I'm not sure - but it would almost have to be a factor.

I await further knowledge...


----------



## Ed

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Mar 05 said:


> Which part do you find is not clear? You can test what Hans is talking about by playing a multi-velocity timpani.



The advice there is good Ive noticed myself so was interesting he said it as well. People do need to realise that advice like this does have to be taken in context and not an absolute, just something to keep in mind dependant on the situation and instrument/sample.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

In very simple terms - try this:

Play a percussion instrument at 127 velocity and listen to the sound.

Then play the same instrument on lower velocities but compress or limit it a little and increase the loudness - by limiting the upper dynamic range, you will get a much fuller sound. 

You do the same to some what achieve the Thomas Newmann piano sound for example.

The piano sound is very compressed and if you played the maximum velocity, it will be too loud and sound tiny. 

but if you play at softer velocities and compress the sound, then you get this gentle sound but it also sounds more rounded and larger.

you can also compress the reverb on a percussion instrument to time the release and it will give you that large release sound....

Of course, Hans is a master of these kind of techniques...


just my thoughts...


Best,

Tanuj.


----------



## germancomponist

wst3 @ Mon Mar 05 said:


> Exactly how this translates to sampled instruments I'm not sure - but it would almost have to be a factor. .



It depends on the libraries u use. If there are ppp, pp, p, mf , f, ff and fff samples, it works great. 

This is the reason because I like it to have different patches for each recording. One pp patch, one mf and so on. You can get much more out of the samples in this way. And this is one reason why I love Kontakt so much. If there are only velocity crossfade instruments or mod wheel controled instruments, the first thing what I do is: I built different patches... . o/~


----------



## Inductance

This blog has a comparison of three versions of the "Gladiator Waltz"--the orchestra by itself, Hans' samples, and the "hybrid version." I think the samples on their own sound amazing, but the hybrid does sound "fuller" and more "complete" to my ears.

btw, it's this exact piece of music that got me on the road to pursue music composition in the first place!

http://scoringfilm.net/2011/07/20/film-sound-engineers/


----------



## re-peat

germancomponist @ Mon Mar 05 said:


> If there are ppp, pp, p, mf , f, ff and fff samples, it works great


Sorry, Gunther, but it’s got nothing to do with there being ppp, pp, p, mf, f, ff and fff samples or not. It’s got everything to do with the simple and familiar fact that if you hit, strike, blow or pluck an instrument very hard, the energy or ‘focus’ in the sound appears to be pushed upwards the frequency spectrum, seemingly at the expense of the lower range of the frequency spectrum (the range where 'bigness' is generated) . That’s why (the dynamic level) ffff on almost any instrument often sounds noticeably thinner, harsher, more piercing than the dynamic levels p, mp, mf or f.

A drum (tom, timpani, bassdrum, whatever …) that’s being hit moderately hard (mp, mf) produces a much fuller, rounder, bigger sound than a drum hit at fff because the balance between low and high frequency content is entirely different in both cases: the harder hit drum has a lot more high frequency content, thus giving the impression of being somewhat thinner, snappier, smaller … sometimes even weaker.
The phenomenon is captured very clearly in Tonehammer’s Epic Toms. The toms with the most ‘big’ energy are not the ones that appear to be hit hardest, but the softer, duller-sounding ones. If you treat those with the right choice (and amount) of dynamic processing (and maybe throw in some TransientDesigner-type of processor as well), you end up with a much more massive and energetic tom-sound than if you’d use the ones that were sampled whilst being struck with full force.
(And if you need some extra snap, you can always mix in a little of those high velocity toms.)

The only types of instruments for which this doesn’t apply are those that generate their most characteristic energy in the higher ranges of the frequency spectrum. Like cymbals for example. A softly struck cymbal can never be made to sound as crashingly energetic as a forcefully struck one.

And snaredrums are a bit of an exception too in that they need the (high-frequency) sound of the snares to project maximum energy. So while an mp/mf snaredrum will have a fuller sound than a ffff one, it may not contain all the characteristic 'snare energy' that's needed to generate full impact. Depends on the library.

So, it’s not a matter of there being plenty of velocity layers (and Kontakt has got nothing whatsoever to do with it either), it’s a matter of not using the highest velocity layers, but using the mp/mf/f velocity layers instead, and treating those in such a way so as to bring out their full energy to best effect.

_


----------



## germancomponist

Opsssss,

is it my bad english????

re-peat, you are saying what I am exactly meaning!?

Why do I want a patch with only pp, mf. f, ff.... samples? 

Because I can, for example, use 127 (midi defined) velocity steps only with a pp recording, I can insert an eq, control there a special frequence gain via velocity, can combine all the different patches and can get out much more dynamic e.t.c. ... .

o-[][]-o


----------



## germancomponist

A short audio demo can explain much more than thousand words.... . So, I will do one tomorrow.


----------



## HDJK

Since we're on the topic of HZ sound, there is a 5.1 surround sound version of his soundtrack to Inception. Huge sounding, immersive, just great :D 

Short review here:

http://www.surroundsoundmusic.com/blog/2012/03/06/inception-blu-ray-surround-soundtrack/


----------



## Jaap

Really interesting posting by Hans Zimmer and very nice that he took the time to explain this. I recently watched a lot of his interviews and though I am not always a big fan of his music (taste wise), I find it very inspiring how his approach is. I was really pleasantly suprised to hear that he read Godel, Esher, Bach for inspiration for his Inception track. Great book and really nice he used this book as inspiration. Beside that his interviews and also his explanations here show how nicely open he is about his way of writing. Very nice! Thank you mr Zimmer.


----------



## everbeatz

vibrato @ Mon Mar 05 said:


> In very simple terms - try this:
> 
> Play a percussion instrument at 127 velocity and listen to the sound.
> 
> Then play the same instrument on lower velocities but compress or limit it a little and increase the loudness - by limiting the upper dynamic range, you will get a much fuller sound.
> 
> You do the same to some what achieve the Thomas Newmann piano sound for example.
> 
> The piano sound is very compressed and if you played the maximum velocity, it will be too loud and sound tiny.
> 
> but if you play at softer velocities and compress the sound, then you get this gentle sound but it also sounds more rounded and larger.
> 
> you can also compress the reverb on a percussion instrument to time the release and it will give you that large release sound....
> 
> Of course, Hans is a master of these kind of techniques...
> 
> 
> just my thoughts...
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> Tanuj.



Hey Tanuj

Thanx for response. That was actually what I was thinking initially - you cleared it up nice. I was mostly getting a lot of percussion to mix that was played at full velocities I guess and it sounded exactly how Hans described it - tiny and pingy. I was studying his sound a lot and noticed the bigness of overall sound, but not in that overpowering sense - more like rounded and big as you described it


----------



## Tatu

That mr. Zimmer's post goes to the epic ones 

I think that the whole HZ Sound of the 21st century - aside Zebra  - is about mixing (post) different dynamics effectively. Soft strings and percussion against heavy brass and heavy percussion most commonly.


----------



## spoon

I see, got back right in time 
Lots of stuff to think about...in just one single thread or even one post in particular.
o[]) 
very overwhelming and mind blowing.
Thank you all!


----------



## Cowtothesky

Gabriel Oliveira @ Fri Mar 02 said:


> Ed @ Fri Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you someone who thinks the finished product doesnt sound realistic either?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no i'm not, samples sounds realistic (limited realism, but some realism)
> 
> what i'm saying is that i already heard (here at VI-C) more realistic mockups than zimmer's
> 
> gotcha? 8)
Click to expand...


Also, keep in mind that Gladiator came out 12 years ago. I think his mockup sounds pretty damn good for something made that long ago. Sure, you could make better mockups today because there are a gazillion more vi libraries and computer power. But, for when it was made, I'm really impressed. 

Also, as someone else mentioned, it will all be recorded later with a live orchestra, so the tweaking ends and the notating begins.


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## Gabriel Oliveira

Cowtothesky @ Thu Mar 22 said:


> Also, keep in mind that Gladiator came out 12 years ago. I think his mockup sounds pretty damn good for something made that long ago.



nice reminder! 

sounds AWESOME for year 2000


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## Audun Jemtland

everbeatz @ Mon Mar 05 said:


> If you want things to sound big, make sure you limit your upper dynamic range. All instruments - especially percussion - sound bigger when played relatively softly. You can always turn it up. When you hit drums too hard, or any instrument is played too loud, they tend to sound only bright and thin and pingy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It'd be great if anyone could expand on this part of Hans' quote
Click to expand...

Don't forget that if one think BIG,you might hit EVERYTHING hard....and I also think he meant if you keep adding hard hits,blows and plucks high in tonality and strength.... All those things added up together will sound bright and pingy.
Less i more.(in alot of cases)


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## Ned Bouhalassa

Sorry Mods: iPad thumb slip sent Mod Report by mistake!


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## Nostradamus

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Apr 07 said:


> Sorry Mods: iPad thumb slip sent Mod Report by mistake!



That's why an iPad is evil.


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## Daniel James

Inductance @ Mon Mar 05 said:


> This blog has a comparison of three versions of the "Gladiator Waltz"--the orchestra by itself, Hans' samples, and the "hybrid version." I think the samples on their own sound amazing, but the hybrid does sound "fuller" and more "complete" to my ears.
> 
> btw, it's this exact piece of music that got me on the road to pursue music composition in the first place!
> 
> http://scoringfilm.net/2011/07/20/film-sound-engineers/



Haha first time I have heard these. Two things come to mind listening to them firstly, Dam I love Zimmer Samples (even his ones from back then) 

Secondly I love that he focused on a really great 'end product sound' with that track as apposed to a 'correct' or 'traditional' one by layering in a bigger hybrid layer. There are alot of composers who just leave it at the recording, even if it can be improved with sound design or sample augmentation. Like I always tell people the focus of the music should always be the best sounding end product, not the most correct or realistic.

Dan


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## MacQ

Daniel James @ Sat Apr 07 said:


> Like I always tell people the focus of the music should always be the best sounding end product, not the most correct or realistic.
> 
> Dan



Amen Daniel! Real isn't defacto better, but people get caught up thinking that it is.

This is one of my favourite quotes on that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... hR8aM#t=5s

~Stu


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## José Herring

Daniel James @ Sat Apr 07 said:


> Inductance @ Mon Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This blog has a comparison of three versions of the "Gladiator Waltz"--the orchestra by itself, Hans' samples, and the "hybrid version." I think the samples on their own sound amazing, but the hybrid does sound "fuller" and more "complete" to my ears.
> 
> btw, it's this exact piece of music that got me on the road to pursue music composition in the first place!
> 
> http://scoringfilm.net/2011/07/20/film-sound-engineers/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Haha first time I have heard these. Two things come to mind listening to them firstly, Dam I love Zimmer Samples (even his ones from back then)
> 
> Secondly I love that he focused on a really great 'end product sound' with that track as apposed to a 'correct' or 'traditional' one by layering in a bigger hybrid layer. There are alot of composers who just leave it at the recording, even if it can be improved with sound design or sample augmentation. Like I always tell people the focus of the music should always be the best sounding end product, not the most correct or realistic.
> 
> Dan
Click to expand...


The orchestral only one sounds clearer. Clearer more distinct and less mushy. The only problem with the orchestral only one is that the damn cymbal is crashing through like its a cymbal solo. In the hybrid version the cymbal has been mixed down which also could have been done in the orchestral only version by either telling the cymbal player to chill out or just mixing it down. It doesn't seem like the orchestral only version was mixed except for at the board during recording. But personally I found the orchestral only version to be clearer, easier to follow the melody line and sonically better than the hybrid version.

Another thing that's interesting though is that the orchestral version doesn't have that "Zimmer" sound. The orchestral version just has that old school action adventure feel to it. But magically you add the hybrid version and it sounds like a cutting edge Zimmer production. That's kind of cool if you think about it.

Another interesting thing is that the sampled version could have passed in the final film and nobody would have even questioned it. The real version has more sonic depth, but it didn't seem to me like the sampled version even for today sounded any less musical or has any less emotional impact even though it doesn't sound "real" which I agree is really not the end all goal of samples imo. My main beef with listening to the 1000x of sample demos I've listened to now is that too many people are trying to go for "real" and not really giving anybody any indication of how the samples could work in a musical context, because so much music has been sacrificed at the expense of doing those 3 things that a particular library sounds "real" at. Which does nobody any good in the end.


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## germancomponist

To be clear: What is the definition of "real"?


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## noiseboyuk

Just a thought... .anyone else think we've reached a peak in the "bigger and bigger" thing, and the style will swing back to something smaller soon?


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## germancomponist

noiseboyuk @ Sat Apr 07 said:


> Just a thought... .anyone else think we've reached a peak in the "bigger and bigger" thing, and the style will swing back to something smaller soon?


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## givemenoughrope

noiseboyuk @ Sat Apr 07 said:


> Just a thought... .anyone else think we've reached a peak in the "bigger and bigger" thing, and the style will swing back to something smaller soon?



(that's what she said...)

Yea, the second I left the opening night of Inception at the Arclight (very loud system), I thought it just can't get any louder, bigger, more 'epic'. I couldn't hear hear some dialogue towards the end. Alan Meyerson has said as much in his Pensado's Place interview (which is a great interview. someone posted it here I believe. thank you.)


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## noiseboyuk

givemenoughrope @ Sat Apr 07 said:


> Yea, the second I left the opening night of Inception at the Arclight (very loud system), I thought it just can't get any louder, bigger, more 'epic'. I couldn't hear hear some dialogue towards the end. Alan Meyerson has said as much in his Pensado's Place interview (which is a great interview. someone posted it here I believe. thank you.)



Inception is a slightly strange case. Obviously yes it was HUGE in places, and even the subdued moments had this big, wide, epic quality. But I think the reason so many noticed it in that movie is that I've never heard a score actually louder in the film's mix itself.

But to be sure, the problem we're getting now is everyone is referencing the last big thing and wanting it to be bigger than that. There is only one solution - Hans, we need you to do a surprisingly small score for a big action movie! Then everyone will start asking for something "like the last Hans Zimmer film, only smaller"...


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## Udo

noiseboyuk @ Sun Apr 08 said:


> Just a thought... .anyone else think we've reached a peak in the "bigger and bigger" thing, and the style will swing back to something smaller soon?


Yes, it's about time we get to listen to more real substance and true musical expression, instead of the bombastic, highly contrived and stylized stuff composers far too often resort to (film/tv in particular). It can be appropriate sometimes, but it often appears to be used to conceal the lack of true expression of emotion. "Septic", rather than "epic", is the appropriate description for "compositions" like that, I think.


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## hollo

adg21 @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> VI Control is social hub for composers making music with computers (something Hans Zimmer is passionate about). Even Hans knows how to use the internet. If you can't believe that the famous communicate with non-famous over the internet then I have only one word. Twitter



Yes, VI Control can be proud to have Hans valuable comment, but it's not a miracle.

I mean, you can't find any better place in the whole internet for people thinking seriously
about music. One can find much more good and useful advice here, than in the 
dedicated, big music magazines. Great thread!

So Cheers for the whole forum! o-[][]-o 

Joseph


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## MichaelL

Udo @ Sun Apr 08 said:


> "Septic", rather than "epic", is the appropriate description for "compositions" like that, I think.



Hmm..having lived in the country, in a house with a septic system, could we use the word "organic" instead? :lol:


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## Ed

noiseboyuk @ Sat Apr 07 said:


> There is only one solution - Hans, we need you to do a surprisingly small score for a big action movie!



So everyone knows what they are supposed to be doing for the next 10 years! :D lololo


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## valexnerfarious

i love the way HZ writes..i really do but...the reason i made the thread was curious more about the post production with HZ,Alan and his team...very dynamic,very clean,very big


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## devastat

valexnerfarious @ Sun Feb 24 said:


> i love the way HZ writes..i really do but...the reason i made the thread was curious more about the post production with HZ,Alan and his team...very dynamic,very clean,very big



There is a nice interview with Alan Meyerson in Pensado's place http://www.pensadosplace.tv/2012/01/10/episode-50-allan-meyerson/ (http://www.pensadosplace.tv/2012/01/10/ ... -meyerson/)


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## valexnerfarious

see that awhile back..very informative


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## ETMuz

I love Zimmer. He stays true to himself. He's open to try to things. New instruments in the forefront. Hans does his own thing, no matter how popular. And should get more credit for his scores than some people here have give him... His notes are CAREFULLY chosen. Thank you for insightful post Hz!


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## Inductance

ETMuz @ Mon Feb 25 said:


> I love Zimmer. He stays true to himself. He's open to try to things. New instruments in the forefront. Hans does his own thing, no matter how popular.



I think this attitude is what people should try to emulate instead of his sound.


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## valexnerfarious

Inductance @ Mon Feb 25 said:


> ETMuz @ Mon Feb 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I love Zimmer. He stays true to himself. He's open to try to things. New instruments in the forefront. Hans does his own thing, no matter how popular.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think this attitude is what people should try to emulate instead of his sound.
Click to expand...


my point was as things like eq,compression,reverb..stuff like that...not his writing style


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## mark812

Inductance @ Mon Feb 25 said:


> ETMuz @ Mon Feb 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I love Zimmer. He stays true to himself. He's open to try to things. New instruments in the forefront. Hans does his own thing, no matter how popular.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think this attitude is what people should try to emulate instead of his sound.
Click to expand...


Well said.


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## germancomponist

Ha ha. 

So far as I remember Hans is working on another / new sound? 

How long will it take that this new sound will be copied again and again then in the trailer world?


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## RiffWraith

germancomponist @ Tue Feb 26 said:


> Ha ha.
> 
> So far as I remember Hans is working on another / new sound?
> 
> How long will it take that this new sound will be copied again and again then in the trailer world?



Movie is released on Wed morning
Composer writes track Wed afternoon/eve
Composer sends track to trailr house Thurs morn
Trailer is completed Thurs afternoon
Trailer makes web debut Thurs eve.

Sounds about right, no?


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## chimuelo

Another Philosophical thread...facepalm.

Here I thought it was a new KVR Plug In.


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## germancomponist

RiffWraith @ Tue Feb 26 said:


> Sounds about right, no?



I was/am more talking about library music.... .


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## Ed

germancomponist @ Tue Feb 26 said:


> I was/am more talking about library music.... .



That is mostly trailer music you get that right?


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## germancomponist

Ed @ Tue Feb 26 said:


> germancomponist @ Tue Feb 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was/am more talking about library music.... .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is mostly trailer music you get that right?
Click to expand...


Of course. How is your question meant?


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## Ed

germancomponist @ Tue Feb 26 said:


> Ed @ Tue Feb 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> germancomponist @ Tue Feb 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was/am more talking about library music.... .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is mostly trailer music you get that right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course. How is your question meant?
Click to expand...


How does... "I was/am more talking about library music" ...respond to Riff's post?


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## germancomponist

Yes..


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## andy_i

I just loved the HZ reply. A year's worth of lessons in that post. Thanks!


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## Mystic

andy_i @ Sun Jan 04 said:


> I just loved the HZ reply. A year's worth of lessons in that post. Thanks!


Which reply are you referring to?


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## Alastair

Mystic @ Mon Jan 05 said:


> andy_i @ Sun Jan 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just loved the HZ reply. A year's worth of lessons in that post. Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Which reply are you referring to?
Click to expand...


Top of page 2.



Rctec @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> ...To answer the original question a little bit, with some random thoughts:
> 
> Start with a concept of your sonic world. Limit your palette to fit the sonic world you're trying to create - you can get lost and never write a note if you scroll through 1000 presets on average sounding synth. I got rid of most VstIs and just work with the ones who's audio engines have real depth and quality, like Zebra and Diva, or the Virus. And yes, I have a lot of great old analogue synth that I bought for next to nothing when everyone ran out to buy a DX7.
> Before writing a single note, my team and I spend a lot of time programming new sounds, sampling new instruments.
> If you want things to sound big, make sure you limit your upper dynamic range. All instruments - especially percussion - sound bigger when played relatively softly. You can always turn it up. When you hit drums too hard, or any instrument is played too loud, they tend to sound only bright and thin and pingy.
> 
> I write very strategically for the spaces I record in. For instance, the Hall at Air Studio has a gallery, so I put my horns up there above the orchestra in Batman. The space you have people perform in is as important as the quality of their instruments. Players respond to good accoustics and will give you a better, more committed performance. The same goes for sampling. A dead room gives an artificially surpressed performance. It's no fun playing in a dead room. Especially brass players like "using" the reverb in the room to give them time to catch their breath between notes, so they'll have the courage and strength to play the next note stronger. I like recording in churches and halls, not studios and artificial reverb. 2000 years of architects like Brunelleschi figuring out how to amplify a sound beats the 20 years we've had of fake reverb development. But if your budget is a bit tight, try a school auditorium. Or an empty warehouse. Use your imagination. You belong to the proud fraternity of poor, starving artists. People expect you to ask them for favors in the name of the great piece of art you are about to unleash upon the world
> 
> I got pretty good ears ( I just had them tested...I got the frequency response of a 20 year old. Just luck. I've been listening to music in my studio too loud every day for 30 years). But the biggest thing is to learn how to listen analytically. That takes time. I learned from really good producers and engineers. Two month with Trevor Horn on a bassdrum sound will either drive you crazy, or really make you understand the damn thing (I'm not sure which side I've ended up on...). I know how to engineer, I know what all those knobs do, but I know that Alan Meyerson has a gift and is better at it then me. But at least I can comunicate to him - very specifically - what and how I hear my piece. I think there is nothing worse for a composer to be at the mercy of technology, the players or a recording engineer. It's your piece of music. No one understands it better. (I always wonder...I grew up (?) working on Neves and Trident "A"s, Harrisons, etc. So I know why I pick a 1073 for certain sounds or a DBX 160 in my UAD plug-ins. If you never used the hardware, how do you know?).
> 
> I always have my monitors set to the same level. It's the only way I know I'm not kidding myself. I don't use very expensive speakers, I just use what I really know - and can get replaced easily.
> Yes, we build our own sampler, because I can hear the difference, but the comercial stuff is getting better. And my career was just fine when I was only using Akai S 1000s with 8 megs of ram.
> 
> I'm a bad player, but a good programmer. I'm forever trying to explain to great players that want to become composers that they need to treat learning and practicing the computer as seriously as they practised their guitar or piano. The computer is a musical instrument and the more virtuouistic you get on that, the better you can express your ideas.
> 
> The moment I start writing, I start mixing. Since I don't write on paper, I spend a long time making each note and sound convey the right emotion. It helps later with the live musicians. I can be very specific in my language (and I use English, not Italian) to convey to them why I want a note or phrase played a certain way. I don't make changes on the scoring stage, I don't let directors make changes with the musicians there. The recording is about getting a performance, not re-writing the cue. Nothing sounds worse then a bunch of bored musicians that had to wait while someone's changed an arrangement.
> 
> Most of the stuff I use on a daily basis is off the shelf software - and not the really expensive stuff, either. The best DAW is the one you're used to.
> 
> I don't understand why people don't sample their own stuff. I've been (more then once) asked to judge "young composer" competitions. After a while you can't hear the music for the sameness of the sample libraries. I wonder how directors or producers can tell the difference.
> 
> And no, you can't sound like me. You are not me, you are you. Just like I can't sound like any other composer. Not with any degree of authenticity.
> 
> I hardly ever get a temp in the movies I work on (Chris Nolan will not temp with anything that's not written for the movie. That whole Francis Lai thing is bull. I'm a fan, but I had never heard that score before. And if the rude ignoramus who was trying to hide behind a question mark when he called me a thief had actually analysed the score a bit, he'd have noticed that the whole thing was based on the notes C and D. Not just that riff. It's a fairly straight forward musical tension device. Seconds, anyone? And the rhythmic figure was - on purpose - a cliche. People can take large chunks of dissonance if you put a groove with it...)
> 
> I can get obsessively lost in sound design and just spend 4 days making one pathetic little sound...But it helps me think the whole piece through...
> 
> ...And i procrastinate from writing by answering this question...
> 
> Hz


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## Mystic

Ahh! Thanks for that.


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## Parsifal666

Rctec said:


> ...To answer the original question a little bit, with some random thoughts:
> 
> Start with a concept of your sonic world. Limit your palette to fit the sonic world you're trying to create - you can get lost and never write a note if you scroll through 1000 presets on average sounding synth. I got rid of most VstIs and just work with the ones who's audio engines have real depth and quality, like Zebra and Diva, or the Virus.
> 
> 
> Hz



I kind of stumbled over this old topic. I first bought Zebra/HZ because of Hans Zimmer's work on Dark Knight and Man of Steel, and it was his mention of the synth that also inspired me to learn Zebra through and through. I religiously studied the manual(s), took umpteen ADSR courses, everything on the subject I could...it paid off, and continues to pay off. When I started in on Zebra, I knew no more about the synthesizer than the average music forum member. After I underwent my journey, I was able to apply the knowledge to the great majority of my other musical tools, in other words my _whole approach_ improved for the better.

One of the things I've heard people say is how they are afraid of learning a synth because it will make them sound too much like the person who is known for using it. This is a myth, but _only_ if you take a significant amount of time to learn how to program the synth (not go through all the presets ad infinitum, ad nauseum) as thoroughly as possible.

You can make practically any synth your own, geared toward your own vision. It just takes knowledge...or more precisely, a willingness to learn.


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## milesito

Parsifal666 said:


> I kind of stumbled over this old topic. I first bought Zebra/HZ because of Hans Zimmer's work on Dark Knight and Man of Steel, and it was his mention of the synth that also inspired me to learn Zebra through and through. I religiously studied the manual(s), took umpteen ADSR courses, everything on the subject I could...it paid off, and continues to pay off. When I started in on Zebra, I knew no more about the synthesizer than the average music forum member. After I underwent my journey, I was able to apply the knowledge to the great majority of my other musical tools, in other words my _whole approach_ improved for the better.
> 
> One of the things I've heard people say is how they are afraid of learning a synth because it will make them sound too much like the person who is known for using it. This is a myth, but _only_ if you take a significant amount of time to learn how to program the synth (not go through all the presets ad infinitum, ad nauseum) as thoroughly as possible.
> 
> You can make practically any synth your own, geared toward your own vision. It just takes knowledge...or more precisely, a willingness to learn.


Great info. Thanks for sharing! In your quest what did you find was the best source of learning and information besides trial and error?


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## Parsifal666

That's very nice of you, thanks! For information YouTube, Google, this forum...but please allow me to also strongly recommend the books "Study of Orchestration" by Samuel Adler (it helps to buy mp3s of all the examples in the book), and "What to Listen for in Music" by the super composer Aaron Copland. These two books can be a huge help on many levels, the latter helps give you something that modern schools seem to have cheated this generation: a more conscientious appreciation of music. Such appreciation can have an immeasurably positive, inspiring effect on your own writing.

If you are looking for synth instruction, the ADSR courses were extremely helpful for me, and they often have very low priced specials on specific things you're looking to learn. Sometimes you have to bear with an irritating voice or three, but so many of those videos can help you on your way. And most user manuals today are truly treasure troves of information...don't let natural cantankerousness (or as my wife calls it "being a man") lead you to try flying by the seat of your pants (at least not most of the time, because breaking free of the rules is part of being a trailblazer).

Also, please learn from something I've already been through: don't either elevate your heroes on too high a pedestal, or sneeringly think you can dismiss them out of your own sense of hubris. Both approaches can lead to extreme crashes, disappointments in both yourself and those enshrined. Learn what you need to know to do your own thing, or what you want to express as an individual. Beethoven's late string quartets and piano sonatas are widely regarded as like unto a musical autobiography of the composer's last years, they are fantastic lessons in personal expression; one could even say they are the way Beethoven immortalized his personality. Listen to those with headphones on in a very quiet room, a place where you will be undisturbed (the "Heiliger Dankesang", or third movement from opus 132, and the slow movement of the Hammerklavier taught me so much).

If you're going for the cash, fine, if the art, fine. If just the art (or a combination of the two), know in advance that the chances of making a living off of that kind of aim today are minimal. And then make up your mind whether it's worth doing just for yourself.

Finally, never let the opinions of others unduly influence you, even if it's your hero(es). People are people, and quite a few people (even successful ones) lead very small lives in little corners (that they often cleared out themselves). They might try to have you share their little corner with them, because that's the only way they can feel bigger.

Ultimately, other's opinions are only worth the value you put into them; in general what other people think about you and your work is none of your business. I recommend only paying attention to criticism which seems constructive, weed out the wheat from the chaff, and make sure you can tell the two apart.

Take what you can use from what I've written, throw out the rest (if not all)....and FLY!


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## Ashermusic

I think that is all fine advice Parsifal666.


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## Parsifal666

Thanks so much Jay, awesome hearing it from you. You are similarly guilty of giving good advice


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## John Busby

loved reading this thread!


----------

