# Cinestrings - need help mixing to sound like original recording!



## Composer007 (Mar 27, 2014)

Hi guys! I'm new here, maybe I post this in the wrong forum not sure.

I saw there are many talented people here who know much about mixing/eqs/mastering stuff and maybe can help me, so I joined.


So the problem is:

- I want to create more professional sounding mock-ups. I tried to reproduce a short part from "Angela's prayer" by JW, with my new string library Cinestrings.

- When I first heard Cinestrings i was amazed how good it sounds, but my mock-up is just sounds like s*it compared to the original version.

So i need a little help what to do to make my mock-ups sound more like the original one?

.......................................

Here is the original version:

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/koc07v5 ... iginal.wav

And here is Cinestrings out of the box:

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/kqvaorl ... he_box.wav

And finally this is Cinestrings with more reverb added (built in M7 Bricasti reverb, not other manipulation):

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/djkahau ... reverb.wav

Here is the score for this short part:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/2lftngv3g ... Prayer.jpg

Also here is a MIDI version if you want to try it in your DAW:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/v9ce2 ... prayer.mid
............................................................................

What I noticed comparing the original and the other version are the following:

- The original has a more clear/warm lush sound
- The original has more smooth transitions
- The original has a "bigger" sound and the instruments blend more together



So any ideas how to make a more similar sound to the original? I would aprreciate any nice ideas thanks! :wink:


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## Hannes_F (Mar 27, 2014)

I would say it is not even bad, actually pretty good - for samples.

What I would try is to reduce the amout of close mics if you used any. Remember that close mics for orchestral strings are only for highlighting or problem solving, not for the basic sound. Instead pull the room/surround mics up.

Deal the brass back a ton.

Lower the dynamics in your strings (cc01 or cc11, whatever it is). You are shouting where it is supposed to be a loud whispering.

Trying M/S techniques and /or one sided delays in order to get a wider stereo image would be one more step.

Subtle saturation / enhancement can help to get more tickle into it if you want that.

Subtle EQing with a really good EQ for some more low mids / bass.

Extra reverb or slapback delay for more depth.

Good luck!

EDIT
Wait, there is not even brass in it? I could sweared I heard a tuba and trombones.
What that means is: you have way too much saturation in your sound. Ride your modwheel/pedal muuuuch less hot.


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## Stiltzkin (Mar 27, 2014)

On top of the comments by hannes, consider adding a nice room tone to the piece too - it works wonders for creating more realism. While it won't solve much of the thickness, it helps to embed it within a sonic space 

Additonally, the crazy quality on the original WAV does "kind" of help its smoothness - it might be worth mimicking this to get a better idea of how far off you are when comparing.


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## TSU (Mar 27, 2014)

First of all there is much more vibrato in the original than in your mockup.


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## Assa (Mar 27, 2014)

Hi everybody,

I gave it a try too. I don't own cinestrings so I used Spitfire Solostrings, Cinematic Strings 2 and LASS instead. I'm still pretty much a beginner when it comes to mockups so I would like to hear your opinions too.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xt9vsee97iun5tx/ashes%20-.mp3


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## BenG (Mar 27, 2014)

Also wanted to try this out with my libraries. (Spitfire/EW)
Here's my version (A bit more rubato....

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6c7dfdi30r5nr ... est%29.wav


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## AlexandreSafi (Mar 28, 2014)

In my humble opinion, (agreeing with Hannes here...), I've done some John Williams lush strings sound study in the past, and my conclusion is that you want to focus as much as possible (with proper reverb) on the distance of the strings at all times, whether in your face or away (volume & expressivo) especially with the violins playing the melody, they easier tend to sharpen the whole mix pretty quickly, so here, study aurally how CineStrings patches work and sound, smoothen them up as much as possible while focusing on the dynamics the whole way through... I really don't know CineStrings, it sounds great here, but LASS is absolutely incredible for the John Williams sound ("Assa" sound demonstrates that well)...

Also my own trick, try to get into the skin of an imaginary classical musician performing his violin, viola, cello or bass, within a big orchestra, that's what John Williams's music is about, the players, they let it out...

A bit much for a 11 sec bit, but hope that helps in the future...

Good luck!


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## Hannes_F (Mar 28, 2014)

Assa's is very nice imo. Recording noise is overdone though.

You guys really stop in the middle of the note? :shock: What are you - pharmacists? :D


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## Assa (Mar 28, 2014)

Yes Hannes you're right, I just lowered the recording noise in my template :D

In case somebody want to know, mostly I use CS2 only for strings, but in this case I used LASS con sordinos to supplement. I think this makes a big difference and adds a lot of lushness to the sound.


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## Composer007 (Mar 29, 2014)

So first of all i want to thank all the responses. Keep it up guys! :wink: 

*Hannes_F: *

- I didn't use any close mics. I used the 'full mix' template of Cinestrings:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/r715k1r2s ... llmics.jpg

- There is NO brass in the mockup as you noticed 

- The dynamics are "mf". According to the Cinstrings manual: 

http://www.mediafire.com/view/jl8dqasbr ... ues_mf.jpg

As you can see I set my mockup accordingly: 

http://www.mediafire.com/view/1fzczb659 ... iolin2.jpg

- About EQ, saturation, stereo-width, distortion im a bit confused. There is a built in mixer in cinestrings:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/y639esvmb ... r_page.jpg

- My question is it nice to set the stereo-width etc to maximum in all of the instruments? (violin1, violin2a, violin2b, cello1a, cello1b) CS is positioned the instruments already so setting the stereo-width to max wont make it a bit artificial or fake? (sry for dumb question :S)

...........................................................

*Stiltzkin: *



Im experimenting with other reverbs too (like Altiverb's Todd-AO). But there is a built in Bricasti M7 reverb in Cinesamples so i like to use it more. 

...........................................................

*TSU: *



> First of all there is much more vibrato in the original than in your mockup.



That's a funny thing, because I've set every instruments vibrato level to the MAX! I still feel not enough as you though. 


...........................................................

*Assa* & *BenG: *

I like the LASS version better, but i think the original has a much darker tone somehow. Maybe some EQ would help but i like it a lot! 

...........................................................

*AlexandreSafi: *

Thanks for the tips. 

...........................................................


I was experimenting with EQ and other stuff since i posted this so i will upload another mockup of the improved version. I think the key will be blending/layering more libraries together. Stay tuned and thanks for the replies again


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## Hannes_F (Mar 30, 2014)

Hi Composer 007



Composer007 said:


> - I didn't use any close mics. I used the 'full mix' template of Cinestrings



Then you used the close mics. They are in the full mix.



Composer007 said:


> - The dynamics are "mf". According to the Cinstrings manual:



If the vendor of a library labels a certain cc range as mf this does not mean that it must sound like mf. Especially as it is dependent on the circumstances what we preceive as mf in a given context. 

Looks as if you can mark all the cc's and pull them down a bit. What happens then to the sound?


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## Hannes_F (May 26, 2014)

Afterthought to this thread:

EDIT:
With correction:
http://www.strings-on-demand.com/demos/ ... 40526b.mp3


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## Blakus (May 26, 2014)

Nicely done Hannes


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## Rob (May 26, 2014)

Composer007, I think it's not the sound, which you already have, very close at least... the phrasing isn't there. I'd dedicate some time to sculpting the expression of the passage...


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## Composer007 (May 26, 2014)

Sorry guys I totally forgot about this topic. My new breath controller arrived today (TEC breath controller), so i hope i will be able to sculp that expression better from now on. I will try to mockup this song again, and post here. 8)


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## Rob (May 26, 2014)

the breath controller is the right choice... listen to your passage played with the BC, using the Miroslav Philharmonik:

www.robertosoggetti.com/Angela.mp3

you tend to forget the pure tonal aspect when the phrasing is right...


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## Composer007 (May 26, 2014)

Rob: That's really nice with your breath controller! I like it a lot! :wink: 

Hannes: I like your version too, but its way OUT OF TUNE man! I know strings are not perfectly in tune when sounding together, but its way tooooo much..a bit careful with that pitch bend control lol! >8o :mrgreen:


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## Hannes_F (May 26, 2014)

@Composer007
Thanks for the hint. We found some tramps in the violins that pretended they could play but only were there for the buffet. Did arrest them.

http://www.strings-on-demand.com/demos/ ... 40526b.mp3


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## Jonas.Ingebretsen (May 29, 2014)

Do anyone have a room tone file lying around for a fellow composer?


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## davidgary73 (May 29, 2014)

Jonas.Ingebretsen @ Fri May 30 said:


> Do anyone have a room tone file lying around for a fellow composer?



Here's cinesamples room tone freebie @ http://cinesamples.com/2012/05/cinesamp ... ing-stage/


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## Composer007 (Jun 16, 2014)

Ok folks. Here is what i did with the TEC Breath Controller + Cinestrings (+Todd-Ao reverb). Not perfect, but better than the last time in my opinion.  

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/w0ltyrm ... ODD_AO.wav


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## Hannes_F (Jun 16, 2014)

Composer007 @ Mon Jun 16 said:


> Ok folks. Here is what i did with the TEC Breath Controller + Cinestrings (+Todd-Ao reverb). Not perfect, but better than the last time in my opinion.
> 
> http://www.mediafire.com/listen/w0ltyrm ... ODD_AO.wav



The basic sound is nice but I hear lots of holes.


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## Composer007 (Jun 17, 2014)

What holes exactly? You mean the parts where I take breath and CC value goes to 0? It's kinda hard to play long passages with one breath, its not a problem for winds but strings can play longer stuff. I tried to set the program to play notes even if i dont blow (output min to higher value), but i need to experiment further with that your right. 

I'm mainly a brass player, so imitating strings with BC+keyboard is not so easy especially in long passages.


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## Composer007 (Jun 17, 2014)

I made another version without the "holes" between notes (+plus a slight room tone added):

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/819g21c ... IXED_5.wav

What do you think? :roll:


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## Hannes_F (Jun 17, 2014)

Composer007,
congrats to the 007th post 

Whatever holes you fixed, the melody still sounds chopped to me. This would fit in a more baroque or classical style but not here.

Musically speaking: Play more dense.

Speaking in the audio realm: If you listen to the original there is not real break between the bow changes.


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## Composer007 (Jun 17, 2014)

Cinestrings do the bowchanges a bit slowly I know. I'll try to fix that too.


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## Composer007 (Jun 17, 2014)

Ok Hans. Here's a new version. Now instead of using 2 notes of the same pitch, I used only ONE long so literally there's no holes between two notes. I emulated the bowchange with CC automation only this time. Let me know if its still sound choppy or not. 

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/jl1a1w5 ... IXED_7.wav


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## renegade (Jun 17, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Tue 17 Jun said:


> Composer007,
> congrats to the 007th post
> 
> Whatever holes you fixed, the melody still sounds chopped to me. This would fit in a more baroque or classical style but not here.
> ...



Agree. Think of the phrase and how it develops. Now it sounds as separate notes, not connected.

I've made this:
[flash width=500 height=100 loop=false]https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=https://soundcloud.com/rene-gade/angelastringstest[/flash]
https://soundcloud.com/rene-gade/angelastringstest

How is that?


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## Composer007 (Jun 17, 2014)

I like your version renegade! What sample library have u used?


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## renegade (Jun 17, 2014)

Composer007 @ Tue 17 Jun said:


> I like your version renegade! What sample library have u used?



Thanks, glad you like it! It's Cornucopia strings (really like it for these kind of things...) mixed with a touch of Sable (molto vib patches only).
There's no legato patches used (!). Maybe you could do something similar with Cinestrings. I think you got the sound pretty close.

You could try working with EQ on the 2k-4k area to soften the sound a bit. Maybe even bring forward the 300-500 a bit.
I used Convolution reverb for extra ER's. In ex. Reverberate you can work on EQ too to give the 200-500 a little extra fullness.

Hope this is helpfull


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## Composer007 (Jun 17, 2014)

Haha man. That's exactly what i wanted to ask next (EQ)! You are really close to it. I try to match the eq better and will upload a new version.


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## Hannes_F (Jun 17, 2014)

Composer007 @ Tue Jun 17 said:


> Ok Hans. Here's a new version. Now instead of using 2 notes of the same pitch, I used only ONE long so literally there's no holes between two notes. I emulated the bowchange with CC automation only this time. Let me know if its still sound choppy or not.
> 
> http://www.mediafire.com/listen/jl1a1w5 ... IXED_7.wav



Still sounds asthmatic to me, sorry. Don't shoot 

No matter which library you use, you can do better (don't fall into the 'James the ashtray is full, we need a new Royce' pit). When working with samples I usually fix such problems with a second midi lane firing to the same Kontakt instance.


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## Composer007 (Jun 17, 2014)

Renegade: Here is a version with some new EQ settings. I think its closer now.

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/wsz6fd2 ... CS_EQ5.wav

Hannes: Point me exactly in the above version where you still hear gaps (exactly at which second). You talking about the first 4 notes right where bow change occur?


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## Hannes_F (Jun 17, 2014)

@Composer007
Here you go (based on Test2_CS_Holesfixed). Hope that helps.


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## Composer007 (Jun 17, 2014)

Ok Hans i see it. But have u listened to the newest version?

I post here again: 

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/wsz6fd2 ... CS_EQ5.wav

In this version i hear no gaps at all.


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## Hannes_F (Jun 17, 2014)

Hi Norbert,

OK, you are spinning the thread better now. 
However you have lost the top end somewhere, so I think you overdid the EQ thing. 

Also while you now have more of a thread it needs to lead somewhere. But the music is not walking anywhere, it is more like standing still.

I could translate this 'musical speak' to 'technical speak' but leave that to you  All the best.


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## Composer007 (Jun 17, 2014)

Where should the music "walk" in your opinion? It would be easier if you speak in musical terms because sometimes hard to understand what you mean...


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## renegade (Jun 17, 2014)

If you can't hear what needs to be done musically it's probably because you need a brake from it? Leave it for a couple of weeks/month, forget about it and then if you want explore this piece further, return with "new" fresh ears later. 
I know if I work too long on he same line I loose the ability to hear it properly...

It's your ears that needs to do the final work, I think you got the information you need in this thread.


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## Composer007 (Jun 17, 2014)

Renegade:

Don't need to be unfriendly to me. I appreciate the tips you guys are giving, keep it up! 
I fixed the "gap" problem that Hannes suggested, also I agree about the EQ. 

But "music not walking anywhere" is not a musical term I understand. Maybe because i'm not a native english speaker. Whatever. If he talks about the original recording has a more moving flow to it (dinamically) than yes I agree again. I can fix that too with another take with the Breath Controller or with some midi editing. 

Also if you have any more productive ideas i'm open to that, but claiming that I can't hear musically what needed is not helping. This is a forum where people share ideas and help each other. :wink:


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## renegade (Jun 17, 2014)

Maybe I said it the wrong way then, I can assure you I had no intention to be unfriendly!

I meant that sometimes when you hear something over and over your ears could need a break. I'm saying this because that happens to me. For me it helps leaving it for a while, doing something else, and return to it later. Off course, that might not be true for you  Just an idea. Sorry it came across the wrong way.

Do you have the original recording loaded in your DAW so you can compare directly? That makes matching the sound (EQ, reverb) more easy, I think.


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## mscottweber (Jun 17, 2014)

I don't think that renegade's statement was meant in a mean way at all. He wasn't saying that your ears are no good, he was saying that we, as composers/musicians can loose perspective if we spend too much time working on something. He was suggesting that taking a break to work on a new piece of music for awhile might help you to hear the work you put into this JW cue in a brand new light. 

As a disclaimer, I am not at my computer so I have not listened to any of the audio examples posted. I just wanted to point out that I didn't think renegade meant any offense by his post.


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## mscottweber (Jun 17, 2014)

Beat me to it


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## Jonas.Ingebretsen (Jun 17, 2014)

davidgary73 @ Fri May 30 said:


> Jonas.Ingebretsen @ Fri May 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Do anyone have a room tone file lying around for a fellow composer?
> ...



I've used that one before quite a lot. It gets to repetitive after It's been used it in 6 pieces or so. I wish there was one with a round robin :D


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## Composer007 (Jun 17, 2014)

Maybe I wasn't clear enough too. My main problem is that sentence: "I think you got the information you need in this thread." It' like saying: "You got every information you need, now go the f** away" or something. 

It not works like that in my opinion. It' more like:

1. Do something
2. Show to other people
3. Collect information
4. Fix issues
5 Repeat! (until you feel the piece is finished)

It's not like you get all information so you know everything. It's a repeating process, there are always something you can work on to your piece sound better. 

Also I know that the ear tends to get tired after a while, if you work on a piece too long, but in my case its more of a problem of inexperience with EQ/mixing, also playing/recording pieces well with the BC is also another skill that one should used to (it's a bit different when I play my French Horn in real life, especially emulating string playing with keyboard+BC combo is not easy, not to say that every sample library reacts to it widely differently).

Maybe your comment wasn't intended to be sound unfriendly Renegade, but believe me I know what is needed musically since I play music for nearly 15-20 years now (piano+french horn) and composing for years also. 

BUT hearing what is needed and achieving it with sample libraries are two different set of skills. EQ, midi editing, CC automation, mixing are arts on its own. 

My main issue in this piece is EQ i need to learn to use it properly. I will upload an improved version. Hannes was right I overEQ-d it and the top end missing.


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## renegade (Jun 18, 2014)

Composer007 @ Wed 18 Jun said:


> Maybe I wasn't clear enough too. My main problem is that sentence: "I think you got the information you need in this thread." It' like saying: "You got every information you need, now go the f** away" or something.



Well, that's your interpretation. You might as well continue the sentence with (and this is what I meant): I think you got the information you need in this thread..._to make a new better version_.
Again, I'm sorry, it was never my intention to offend you.



Composer007 @ Wed 18 Jun said:


> It's not like you get all information so you know everything. It's a repeating process, there are always something you can work on to your piece sound better.



Yes, just be careful not to get stuck in repeat  Things can always be better! Especially with samples...
I think your version is getting better and better. To me, what could still be better, is the melody flow, the phrasing, the "journey" of the melody. Hard to explain in words, but if you focus on dynamics and the connection between notes I think you are on the right track.



Composer007 @ Wed 18 Jun said:


> My main issue in this piece is EQ i need to learn to use it properly. I will upload an improved version. Hannes was right I overEQ-d it and the top end missing.



Do you know the "EQ sweep" technique? Do a search on youtube and I'm sure you'll find something useful. Here's one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmrve23xRW8

Also when you EQ, pay attension to the "Q" value


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## Composer007 (Jun 18, 2014)

You not offended me just it was a bit weird when i read your comment the first time. Now i see what u wanted to say. Sry for misunderstanding. o-[][]-o 

I will check down this EQ sweep method. The one i was looking at recently is EQ matching technique. I downloaded a plugin but couldn't load in Reaper for some reason, but its a nice technique. 

Anyway can you show me an EQ chart maybe of the string section and various orchestral instruments that contains the best frequencies to boost etc or cut? 

I was searching that net for some but not found any useful one. (Of course EQ is personal I know but still would be nice to know where to start EQing stuff)


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## Will Blackburn (Jun 18, 2014)

Jonas.Ingebretsen @ Tue Jun 17 said:


> davidgary73 @ Fri May 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Jonas.Ingebretsen @ Fri May 30 said:
> ...



The link just goes to the homepage?


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## milesito (Jun 18, 2014)

Cinesamples does now give this out anymore. They said it was an old sample. Just spoke with tech support yesterday...


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## Composer007 (Jun 20, 2014)

Renegade: You were right! Cornucopia strings is an awsome library! Very clear and nice sound!

I managed to get this lib too so I tried to do an another mockup now with this one. The result is much closer to the original than Cinestrings in my opinion.

I used altiverb's ToddAo for the reverb + Berlin strings first violin for the legato sound, all other sounds are from Cornucopia strings (also I tried to play along with the original track as i recorded to the dynamics be more fluid):

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/14b436h ... NGELA2.wav

Let me know how do u like it guys :mrgreen:


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## milesito (Jun 20, 2014)

wow, that's pretty good, Compose007. Big time improvement in terms of matching the original source. There are some differences in the nuances of the attack dynamics but the overall is much closer to the source than before...


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## Composer007 (Jun 21, 2014)

Thanks Milesito! I'm glad you like it!

Here's another one, this time Anakin's Theme from Star Wars (Cornucopia strings/same settings):

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/xguz6s7 ... AKIN_3.wav

Original recording:

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/vjg5zw2 ... iginal.wav

The score:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/6hhv9yq5e ... ANAKIN.jpg



The phrasing is not perfect, but the sound is pretty close again in my opinion


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## renegade (Jun 21, 2014)

Good attempt 

I agree that you could improve the mockup considerably by putting more energy in the phrasing. The non-melody lines needs as much attention as the melody. I'm hearing some of the accompanying lines (Viola, Cello) as rather static. They need more movement (dynamics).



Rob @ Mon 26 May said:


> you tend to forget the pure tonal aspect when the phrasing is right...



This is very important I think ^ The better, more musical phrasing, the better the tone will be perceived. EQ, reverb etc. is the final (non-essential) touch.


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