# How well does your M1 do in a real setting?



## PeterN (May 23, 2022)

I just realised that my MacBook 15' late 2016 Intel is about half the better in a "real world setting" than the M1 MacBook Air. In other words, it doesn't crash due to CPU spikes, its more stable. Which is not supposed to be the case according to the raving reviews, where you open 50 synths, press play, and say praise and glory.

Anyway, I use several plugins, there's tons of automation, audio tracks, several Kontakt instruments, a track of Sine and Spitfire sampler, and so on. The 2016 clearly does a better job, with exception of heating, and speed in bouncing the track. (the M1 bounces very fast and does not overheat even under pressure.)

Both are 16 RAM.

Can we have some truth here, is this the case with your M1 too? How does it handle a real complicated template?

- thanks


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## roach1245 (May 23, 2022)

I've had the M1 Max (64GB RAM) Macbook Pro for 7 months now. Overall it's been an amazing laptop to use, I have taken it everywhere and haven't rebooted it for weeks.

I've been using it with Logic (is that your DAW as well?) with 30 - 40 tracks at most I guess (mainly with OT, NI, Spitfire libraries), I think it was only Kontakt that crashed once but overall everything is instant and smooth. But I am relatively new to composing so I don't think my templates qualify as 'real complicated'.

My 'real setting' use case for it is data science. No matter what I throw at it, sometimes using the CPU at its max for hours onwards with analyses that don't fit in memory and use swap space, it performs wonderfully well - in silence (and for > 8 hours on battery).

I had a Macbook Pro 2018 before which would overheat quickly - with kernel_task at 99% all the time - and which I would have to reboot often (also sent it to Apple twice for butterfly keyboard failures). But coming from the MBP 2018 and many Linux/Windows laptops, this is by far the best laptop I've ever owned.


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## mscp (May 23, 2022)

Hmm...I'm having a lot of issues, but I'm sure they are all sofware related. I'd say, wait a bit.


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## gzapper (May 23, 2022)

My 64 Gb Ram M1 Max macbook smokes my 2017 macbook pro with 16 gigs. Even just in synth only playback, but with samples its soo much better. The fans almost never go on, stupid trackpad is gone, keyboard works and the thing is way more solid. Best investment I've made in years. 
Last year I was dragging around the i7 macbook pro with an Intel NUC VEP rig that was buggy, slow and a drag. This year I haven't turned the VEP rig on.


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## PeterN (May 23, 2022)

roach1245 said:


> I've had the M1 Max (64GB RAM) Macbook Pro for 7 months now. Overall it's been an amazing laptop to use, I have taken it everywhere and haven't rebooted it for weeks.
> 
> I've been using it with Logic (is that your DAW as well?)


Yep, Logic here as well. The MacBook Pro 2016 I used before, I stopped updating Logic in 2019, when it felt stable, and it worked very smooth for 3 years. Unless there were over 30 tracks, with 50 plugins. This MacBook Air is like a children toy compared to that.

How would your M1 handle Sonokinetics phrase libraries and The Orchestra could be an interesting test.


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## PeterN (May 23, 2022)

gzapper said:


> My 64 Gb Ram M1 Max macbook smokes my 2017 macbook pro with 16 gigs. Even just in synth only playback, but with samples its soo much better. The fans almost never go on, stupid trackpad is gone, keyboard works and the thing is way more solid. Best investment I've made in years.
> Last year I was dragging around the i7 macbook pro with an Intel NUC VEP rig that was buggy, slow and a drag. This year I haven't turned the VEP rig on.


Well, you both got the 64 Ram M1 Max. It is kinda expected it works. It damn better work.

Would be interesting to hear someone who bought some model that is not the most specced up. Even a 13 inch M1. 

Yes, the trackpad is gone and that's good.


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## PeterN (May 23, 2022)

mscp said:


> Hmm...I'm having a lot of issues, but I'm sure they are all sofware related. I'd say, wait a bit.


Possibly.

If my 2016 was not full of crap and files on hard drive. Meanwhile, Id go back to it. And check again 2023.


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## Cdnalsi (May 24, 2022)

My M1 Pro with 16GB of RAM completely destroyed my 2018 i9 Intel MBP. I've had some issues especially with Kontakt before they updated it to Apple Silicon native, but then completely stopped having any kinds of clicks, pops, slowdowns, anything of that sorts with my all native plugins template (400+ tracks of lots of u-he synths, BBCSO Core, AR2, Sampler, sforzando, Kontakt, audio tracks - all bussed to at least a couple of Space Designer IRs, Klanghelm DSPs, EQs, Panagement, etc). I've had zero crashes, zero headaches.

I've said this in another thread but the upgrade for me felt like going 10 years into the future. Outstanding performance given I'm running only native plugins.


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## PeterN (May 24, 2022)

Cdnalsi said:


> My M1 Pro with 16GB of RAM completely destroyed my 2018 i9 Intel MBP. I've had some issues especially with Kontakt before they updated it to Apple Silicon native, but then completely stopped having any kinds of clicks, pops, slowdowns, anything of that sorts with my all native plugins template (400+ tracks of lots of u-he synths, BBCSO Core, AR2, Sampler, sforzando, Kontakt, audio tracks - all bussed to at least a couple of Space Designer IRs, Klanghelm DSPs, EQs, Panagement, etc). I've had zero crashes, zero headaches.
> 
> I've said this in another thread but the upgrade for me felt like going 10 years into the future. Outstanding performance given I'm running only native plugins.


My guess is, its the M1 Pro the M1 Max, or nothing. I wanted this M1 MacBook Air 16 RAM, (its the most specced up MacBook Air) so I could compose on the road, using solar panels for energy etc. For the convenience in travel. Also, just for the price of it. Several reviews out there did not find any major difference with the M1 and M1 Pro. Most, even recommended the M1 and not the M1 Pro.

Well. No use to cry over spilled milk. This is the only Apple product I regret, and over the years, got several. Time to save for the M2 Pro.


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## ReleaseCandidate (May 24, 2022)

PeterN said:


> In other words, it doesn't crash due to CPU spikes, its more stable.


Any computer that (repeatably) crashes because of CPU spikes has faulty hardware.


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## Cdnalsi (May 24, 2022)

PeterN said:


> My guess is, its the M1 Pro the M1 Max, or nothing. I wanted this M1 MacBook Air 16 RAM, (its the most specced up MacBook Air) so I could compose on the road, using solar panels for energy etc. For the convenience in travel. Also, just for the price of it. Several reviews out there did not find any major difference with the M1 and M1 Pro. Most, even recommended the M1 and not the M1 Pro.
> 
> Well. No use to cry over spilled milk. This is the only Apple product I regret, and over the years, got several. Time to save for the M2 Pro.


Yeah the difference is the extra two performance cores, right? 

Are you using only native plugins though?


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## PeterN (May 24, 2022)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Any computer that (repeatably) crashes because of CPU spikes has faulty hardware.


Well, the CPU spikes are not without reason. Obviously they show up when there is something going on on many tracks. 

But of course, there could be hardware issues also. That's why it would be interesting to hear other peoples experiences. Not only on 64GB Max but just MacBook Airs a16 RAM nd MacBook 13 inch 16 RAM.


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## PeterN (May 24, 2022)

Cdnalsi said:


> Yeah the difference is the extra two performance cores, right?
> 
> Are you using only native plugins though?


By native plugins, I assume you are referring to the ones that have been developed for M1?

Mostly yes. If I only use Logics stock plugins, the result is a hell a lot better. I can't even put the Liquidsocis Seventh Heaven on any track. I mean, that's one single plugin that can cause all to become a mess. That's one thing Ive figured. I guess there's plenty more to figure out. Seems the Joshua Bell violin creates CPU spikes too. But that's an assumption.

Usually its the 2 cores, but I haven't been keeping any detailed analysis.


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## ReleaseCandidate (May 24, 2022)

PeterN said:


> Well, the CPU spikes are not without reason. Obviously they show up when there is something going on on many tracks.


The problem are not the spikes, but the crashes. What does the Console (the program, not a terminál) have to say about these?


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## PeterN (May 24, 2022)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> The problem are not the spikes, but the crashes. What does the Console (the program, not a terminál) have to say about these?


I will have to check that more in detail. I will comment on that in a day or two when Im back to the Logic Project again.

Could you be more specific about "the program" please?


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## Cdnalsi (May 24, 2022)

PeterN said:


> By native plugins, I assume you are referring to the ones that have been developed for M1?
> 
> Mostly yes. If I only use Logics stock plugins, the result is a hell a lot better. I can't even put the Liquidsocis Seventh Heaven on any track. I mean, that's one single plugin that can cause all to become a mess. That's one thing Ive figured. I guess there's plenty more to figure out. Seems the Joshua Bell violin creates CPU spikes too. But that's an assumption.
> 
> Usually its the 2 cores, but I haven't been keeping any detailed analysis.


Yes I'm referring to Audio Units that are M1 (Apple Silicon) native in code. Universal Binary 2 it's called.

The problem for me was when I was loading a non-native plugin, there would be a (handy) process in Activity Monitor called AUHosting*Compatibility*Service which is Logic's way of translating (perhaps through Rosetta2) the software, and it being another layer of processing needed to be done, my performance would tank like crazy: full of clicks and pops and CPU spikes and freezes.

All of these issues went away when all my plugins run natively through the 'regular' AUHostingService process from Logic (notice without the 'Compatibility' layer name).

So for me cleansing my template of everything that was non-native really boosted my performance to an unreal level.

edit: As far as Seventh Heaven, I went with the free route and just used Bricasti M7, TODD AO, and some BBC Marconi Impulse Responses floating around here and freely available in Space Designer. This paired with Auburn Sounds' Panagement have taken care of all my reverbs and positioning needs. Perhaps this would be a way to ease the CPU load for you as well.


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## khollister (May 24, 2022)

I use 7th Heaven Pro, HD Cart and Cinematic Rooms Pro with no CPU issues at all in either Logic or Cubase 12 on my M1Max.


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## mscp (May 24, 2022)

khollister said:


> I use 7th Heaven Pro, HD Cart and Cinematic Rooms Pro with no CPU issues at all in either Logic or Cubase 12 on my M1Max.


Me neither. But I did notice that a combination of certain plugins in the same channel strip in Logic 10.7.4 (M1 Max) does cause the CPU to spike.


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## rnb_2 (May 24, 2022)

My M1 Pro 32GB 14" has developed the "pops and crackles with ANY audio" bug in the last couple weeks - not sure if the latest OS update triggered it, or what. The only cure seems to be deleting two plist files and rebooting - the audio will then be clean for a while, but the pops and crackles always come back.

I first noticed the issue on a Youtube video, where the crackles were so bad I couldn't believe the video was published, but then it started happening in Logic/Studio One, and I realized it was my computer. The feeling is that it's definitely a software issue, but it's apparently been coming and going for some people for a few years.


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## ridgero (May 24, 2022)

16" M1 Max 64 GB

It's the best computer I've ever had and it's the first time in my whole life, that a laptop can replace a whole desktop.

I've never heard the fans once.


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## jcrosby (May 24, 2022)

rnb_2 said:


> My M1 Pro 32GB 14" has developed the "pops and crackles with ANY audio" bug in the last couple weeks - not sure if the latest OS update triggered it, or what. The only cure seems to be deleting two plist files and rebooting - the audio will then be clean for a while, but the pops and crackles alway come back.
> 
> I first noticed the issue on a Youtube video, where the crackles were so bad I couldn't believe the video was published, but then it started happening in Logic/Studio One, and I realized it was my computer. The feeling is that it's definitely a software issue, but it's apparently been coming and going for some people for a few years.


This sounds like the same issue I went through when Apple introduced the T2 / 2018 MBP. The pops were so bad they might as well have sounded like lighting off firecrackers! I also noticed that if I had more than one source of audio playing at the same time the audio buffer started to "echo" (repeat segments of data caught in the buffer).

The TLDR version is this - Through testing the issue (and fruitless support calls) I was able to trace it back to one of two security updates installed on the same day. When I restored from a clone made right before installing the update the issue magically disappeared and never came back.... More about this below. Here's video of the range of issues that I experienced if you want to compare it to the issues you're seeing...

Apologies for the wobbly IOS videos, unfortunately if I tried to screen capture all audio would get hyper distorted. (The 1st clip shows the result of that, so everything had to be captured with my phone to document for support what the day to day experience was...) You'll see it affected any application that produced sound, Logic/Live/iTunes/All browsers, etc.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/nocxl2icdzdydu5/2018%20MBP%20Audio%20Crackling%20%26%20Stuttering.mp4?dl=0


*Tracing the issue / determining the culprit was a Security update*:

When I 1st got the machine 9/2018 it ran like butter... Audio was glitch-free for the 1st 3 months. In early December I installed two security updates on the same day. About 15 mins after installing the updates issues identical to what you describe started... (Interestingly I also noticed the issue watching video online). I thought it was a browser hiccup, I went to bed and didn't think anything of it...

The next day I was working in Logic, and after about an hour Logic starting stuttering and crackling and throwing up errors. The project had hardly anything in it. Three tracks, One was Alchemy, the others audio, CPU use was miniscule...

If I rebooted the issue would go away for a while, then come back like clockwork. Eventually I noticed it took about an hour after a reboot for the issue to show up, I started timing it and documenting it. Through tests I was able to determine the issue was system-wide. I also noticed that playing audio in more than one application at a time resulted in stuttering behavior that was cyclical (as you can see in the video)... (My hunch to this day is that it was related to some kind macos process running on a timer; i.e. it consistently starting 50 mins after a reboot... And the buffering/stuttering having a consistent pattern. See the screenshots of RX and brief explanation in 2nd clip in the video. At 00:45) 

*Security Update Tracing*:


I decided to see what would happen if I booted the machine from a clone I made before installing both security updates. Low and behold the issue wouldn't show up...
I then decided to leave the machine booted from a clone for a couple days. Nothing, nada, zilch!
I even left it playing audio overnight to see if I would wake up to the issue.... (I did this twice!) No glitches or pops.
I then opted for the red pill, wiped the internal disk, and cloned back to the internal disk from the backup, and the problem never returned.

Since then I've become vehement about leaving automatic updates disabled. If I was on a big project at the time this happened I would have been ****ed. Frankly the entire experience soured me from installing security updates now. It's pretty clear to me that security updates absolutely have the potential to interfere with/'break' core audio or other processes not documented in the security update documentation.... (I checked the documentation on both updates after the fact. No mention of core audio, video, or anything indicating these would have been affected)...

The thing that concerns me most about Apple Silicon, (and why I'm still trepidatious while I wait for mine to ship) - Cloning as we know it no longer exists on Apple Silicon. If I were to run into this issue again I have no idea what I'd do. Hearing that the issue seems to have reappeared I'm kind of on the fence now...



Anyway not to hijack the thread... I'm just saying there are tons of reasons why the default assumption should be it's related to the most recent macos update...

Cheers.


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## Justin L. Franks (May 24, 2022)

Cdnalsi said:


> Yeah the difference is the extra two performance cores, right?
> 
> Are you using only native plugins though?


M1 Pro has twice the performance cores as the base M1 (8 versus 4), and half the efficiency cores (2 versus 4). Except the base model, which is binned with 6 performance cores.

M1: 4 performance / 4 efficiency
M1 Pro / M1 Max: 8 performance / 2 efficiency (6 / 2 for binned M1 Pro models)

M1 Pro and M1 Max also have significantly higher memory bandwidth, and uses LPDDR5 instead of LPDDR4X.


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## rnb_2 (May 24, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> This sounds like the same issue I went through when Apple introduced the T2 / 2018 MBP. The pops were so bad they might as well have sounded like lighting off firecrackers! I also noticed that if I had more than one source of audio playing at the same time the audio buffer started to "echo" (repeat segments of data caught in the buffer).
> 
> The TLDR version is this - Through testing the issue (and fruitless support calls) I was able to trace it back to one of two security updates installed on the same day. When I restored from a clone made right before installing the update the issue magically disappeared and never came back.... More about this below. Here's video of the range of issues that I experienced if you want to compare it to the issues you're seeing...
> 
> ...


Thanks for the details - really appreciate it! I'm pretty sure it was the 12.4 update that triggered things, so it wasn't as minor as a security update, unfortunately (though there wasn't anything major in 12.4 that I need, either). The problem, as you noted, is that I don't have a bootable drive running 12.3.1 any more - you have to have a backup drive big enough for everything on the system drive to even create one via CarbonCopyCloner, since it has to use Apple's cloning tool and won't allow you to exclude anything from the backup.

This has put the idea into my head to create separate volumes for my Lightroom catalogs/photos and my samples, so that my system drive will drop down to <1TB (the biggest spare drive I have to do a bootable backup to). I've never had an update hose things to this extent, and (fortunately) music is just a hobby for me, so it's not critical, just irritating.


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## jcrosby (May 24, 2022)

rnb_2 said:


> The problem, as you noted, is that I don't have a bootable drive running 12.3.1 any more - you have to have a backup drive big enough for everything on the system drive to even create one via CarbonCopyCloner, since it has to use Apple's cloning tool and won't allow you to exclude anything from the backup.


Ah ok. the whole cloning thing via AS has been confusing me. 

It sounds like I could opt to buy a new disk large enough to clone the entire system and have room to spare if needed; then cloning is at least an option? (Even then this would be somewhat of a disaster as I've got an 8TB that has less than 2TB left )


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## mscp (May 24, 2022)

There are a bunch of things that Apple and devs need to iron out MacOS-wise won't mention them here to keep things short...except one "must" mention: external ssds prefer HFS+ over APFS. APFS with USB-C write speeds are tragically all over the place and extremely unreliable for serious work. But it's Apple eh? ...breaking stuff whenever they innovate is almost a certain thing. Remember the horror from MacOS 9.2 to X and how long it took? ugh.

They'll get there...in a few years. If you're not in a hurry and you have a working computer that does the job...wait.


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## rnb_2 (May 24, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Ah ok. the whole cloning thing via AS has been confusing me.
> 
> It sounds like I could opt to buy a new disk large enough to clone the entire system and have room to spare if needed; then cloning is at least an option? (Even then this would be somewhat of a disaster as I've got an 8TB that has less than 2TB left )


It can still be done, but you wouldn't want to do it nightly, as it can only wipe the destination drive and copy the entire source drive (no incremental backup). That said, I think it would be possible to create a bootable backup, then just update the Data volume nightly (leaving the OS alone, and incrementally updating the user-accessible part of the drive).

I'm in the process of moving my photos and samples off of the internal drive so that I can create separate volumes for them. After that is done, I'll be able to test the above procedure to see if it works. I'm already backing up my photos to different drives each night, so I'll just modify that backup job once everything is in place.


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## rnb_2 (May 25, 2022)

rnb_2 said:


> It can still be done, but you wouldn't want to do it nightly, as it can only wipe the destination drive and copy the entire source drive (no incremental backup). That said, I think it would be possible to create a bootable backup, then just update the Data volume nightly (leaving the OS alone, and incrementally updating the user-accessible part of the drive).
> 
> I'm in the process of moving my photos and samples off of the internal drive so that I can create separate volumes for them. After that is done, I'll be able to test the above procedure to see if it works. I'm already backing up my photos to different drives each night, so I'll just modify that backup job once everything is in place.


I've just confirmed that this process appears to work. I haven't actually tested the backup's ability to boot (that's complicated by my octopus of a setup, with drives, USB hub, a PCIe expansion chassis, and display all feeding to/from the MacBook Pro via one Thunderbolt cable), but after doing the "legacy" backup via CarbonCopyCloner to produce a backup that *should* boot - it has the proper OS and Data volumes - I was then able to update the drive with my normal overnight incremental backup and everything looks good.

Wishing that I had done this earlier, of course, if only to test whether it was the 12.4 update that messed up the audio system for me. As a best practice, though, assuming that you get a large enough internal drive for at least some of your big data, I think I can recommend segregating samples (or any other big data) in their own volume(s) inside the internal drive's APFS container (you can limit the size of those volumes or not - I didn't in this case). This will allow you to keep your basic System+Library+Applications+Users volume relatively small so that you can maintain a bootable backup for testing/restore after any OS/security update. If the update doesn't hose anything, you can then wipe the backup and do a new one with the updated system fairly quickly (and update that nightly going forward), and your big data never has to be copied back and forth in the process.


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## jcrosby (May 25, 2022)

rnb_2 said:


> I've just confirmed that this process appears to work. I haven't actually tested the backup's ability to boot (that's complicated by my octopus of a setup, with drives, USB hub, a PCIe expansion chassis, and display all feeding to/from the MacBook Pro via one Thunderbolt cable), but after doing the "legacy" backup via CarbonCopyCloner to produce a backup that *should* boot - it has the proper OS and Data volumes - I was then able to update the drive with my normal overnight incremental backup and everything looks good.
> 
> Wishing that I had done this earlier, of course, if only to test whether it was the 12.4 update that messed up the audio system for me. As a best practice, though, assuming that you get a large enough internal drive for at least some of your big data, I think I can recommend segregating samples (or any other big data) in their own volume(s) inside the internal drive's APFS container (you can limit the size of those volumes or not - I didn't in this case). This will allow you to keep the your basic System+Library+Applications+Users volumes relatively small so that you can maintain a bootable backup for testing/restore after any OS/security update. If the update doesn't hose anything, you can then wipe the backup and do a new one with the updated system fairly quickly (and update that nightly going forward), and your big data never has to be copied back and forth in the process.


Excellent! Also this discussion prompted me to email Mike from Bombich to see what he said... Here's his reply about strategies for dealing with an update that potentially breaks something mission critical (such as my 2018 MBP issue, and what I'm guessing your issue is at least partially related to...)




*
Mike B.*_ (Bombich Software)
May 25, 2022, 8:28 AM EDT
Hi Justin,_


> _I'm a bit confused by what Apple Silicon actually means for someone coming from years of being able to clone their machine._


_I'd start here:

*Beyond Bootable Backups: Adapting recovery strategies for an evolving platform*

*Succinct summary* – you can still make bootable copies of the system on Apple Silicon Macs, but we don't recommend that you do that as part of a backup strategy because it's not going to be useful in the case of a hardware failure._



> _My biggest concern would be this... I've had macos updates completely break core services (core audio in my case)._


_You should test those updates on external storage before applying them to your startup disk – that's really the only reasonable option that Apple has left us with. 

You could downgrade macOS if you kept a copy of the previous full OS Installer handy (i.e. download a copy from the app store every time Apple makes an update so that you can have it prior to applying the next update), but that involves an incredible amount of hassle compared to testing the update on a test volume. If you want to create a test volume prior to applying a macOS update:_

_Create a new task_
_Choose your startup disk as the source_
_Choose an empty volume (not your production backup volume) as the destination_
_Click on the Destination selector again and choose "Legacy Bootable Copy Assistant" – choose the option to create a bootable copy_
_Run the task_
_Then boot the Mac from the external device, apply the macOS update and do your testing. If it works out, reboot and apply the update to the production startup disk. In either case, simply erase the test volume when you're done._



This completely explained the gray areas that weren't clear to me previously...

That said I still feel the same as yesterday, i.e. for all of the advancements of Apple Silicon's performance, I'm completely put off by Apple's insistence on nuking the ability to clone in the traditional sense.

CCC was one of those life rafts that made being tethered to macos always preferable for me... His recommendation above about having to install updates to an external device and testing before updating are concerning to put it mildly...Basically, as if the annual OS's and compatibility issues weren't a big enough headache already, Macos appears to be becoming even more of a mine filed.

My real concern is that they eventually lock down the OS to the same degree they do with IOS; where once you update that's it... You either wipe completely and restore everything, or your stuck where you are until an issue gets resolved in a future update.


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## khollister (May 25, 2022)

So something really odd has happened here. Prior to my emergency trip to take care of my 96 yo father, Cubase 12 was running great on my M1Max (as was Logic and S1). Now, the ASIO realtime meter is spiking like crazy with nothing loaded even. Same MacOS version, same UAD driver, same Cubase version. Logic and S1 behave as before.


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## rnb_2 (May 25, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Excellent! Also this discussion prompted me to email Mike from Bombich to see what he said... Here's his reply about strategies for dealing with an update that potentially breaks something mission critical (such as my 2018 MBP issue, and what I'm guessing your issue is at least partially related to...)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing Mike Bombich's thoughts - very helpful and informative (I had already read the Beyond Bootable Backups article).

I'm not sure I understand his stance on how to test an update - making an external bootable update, separate from your normal backup, and running from that to test doesn't seem like the best test environment, given the performance differences between internal and external drives, especially an external that is only intended as a backup. I don't see any obvious issues with creating a bootable backup as I just did and updating that nightly, and then booting from it if a system update produces something unpleasant, and restoring that back to the internal after testing to confirm that the update caused the issue. Running from a backup for an extended testing period for every update just doesn't appeal to me, honestly - I'd rather just restore if it's needed from a backup I've been maintaining.


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## jcrosby (May 25, 2022)

rnb_2 said:


> Thanks for sharing Mike Bombich's thoughts - very helpful and informative (I had already read the Beyond Bootable Backups article).
> 
> I'm not sure I understand his stance on how to test an update - making an external bootable update, separate from your normal backup, and running from that to test doesn't seem like the best test environment, given the performance differences between internal and external drives, especially an external that is only intended as a backup. I don't see any obvious issues with creating a bootable backup as I just did and updating that nightly, and then booting from it if a system update produces something unpleasant, and restoring that back to the internal after testing to confirm that the update caused the issue. Running from a backup for an extended testing period for every update just doesn't appeal to me, honestly - I'd rather just restore if it's needed from a backup I've been maintaining.


I don't think I'm grasping how you've managed this. Are you saying you have a separate bootable backup that's only the OS?

This is what confuses me about what you see in Disk Utility 10.15 and beyond... For example the _Applications_ folder and _/Library_ folder (not _~/Library_) are revealed in both cases - (_*Macintosh HD*_ and _*Macintosh HD - Data*_) - when you choose 'show in Finder' in Disk Utility . With Catalina and beyond it's been unclear to me if your _Applications_ and _/Library_ folders are considered part of the data volume or part of the OS volume.

Man I used to get macos! 10.15 onward I haven't been able to keep up with what Apple designates as one vs the other now that the _Mac HD_ volume is split in two...


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## GingerMaestro (May 25, 2022)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Any computer that (repeatably) crashes because of CPU spikes has faulty hardware.


I have a couple of questions I would really love the answers to, I have a new MBP M1 Max 64 gb etc and am having issues !

•What % on a core would constitute a CPU Spike ? 50% ? more ?

• How much CPU should one instance of Kontakt (or Zebra or Spitfire app or anything) use when you are recording midi ?

•How many midi tracks have folks been playing (obviously with stuff on them) whilst recording on one track at the same time.
I'm worried there might be a hardware issue with my computer...Thanks so much...


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## rnb_2 (May 25, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> I don't think I'm grasping how you've managed this. Are you saying you have a separate bootable backup that's only the OS?
> 
> This is what confuses me about what you see in Disk Utility 10.15 and beyond... For example the _Applications_ folder and _/Library_ folder (not _~/Library_) are revealed in both cases - (_*Macintosh HD*_ and _*Macintosh HD - Data*_) - when you choose 'show in Finder' in Disk Utility . With Catalina and beyond it's been unclear to me if your _Applications_ and _/Library_ folders are considered part of the data volume or part of the OS volume.
> 
> Man I used to get macos! 10.15 onward I haven't been able to keep up with what Apple designates as one vs the other now that the _Mac HD_ volume is split in two...


The only thing that is in *Macintosh HD* is the base OS install - the /System folder, plus whatever system files are in /Library and /Applications. Everything that gets installed after the OS is in the Data volume, and the OS basically knits the two /Library and /Applications folders together so that they look like one.

What I have is a clone of *Macintosh HD* and *Macintosh HD - Data* (from the 'legacy' CCC backup). From there, my normal nightly backup *only updates Macintosh HD - Data* and doesn't touch the OS volume. Since the OS volume doesn't change - it can't - just updating the Data volume should keep the backup in step with my internal system drive.


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## ReleaseCandidate (May 25, 2022)

GingerMaestro said:


> I have a couple of questions I would really love the answers to, I have a new MBP M1 Max 64 gb etc and am having issues !
> 
> •What % on a core would constitute a CPU Spike ? 50% ? more ?
> 
> ...


The OP is talking about crashes, not normal load. 
Your questions are way too general to be able to answer. It always depends what exactly is running how configured in Kontakt/Spitfire/Zebra...


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## PeterN (May 25, 2022)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> The OP is talking about crashes, not normal load.
> Your questions are way too general to be able to answer. It always depends what exactly is running how configured in Kontakt/Spitfire/Zebra...


Well, Im the OP, but there is no set frame for the discussion. Just let it float freely. Lets say the topic is, is the M1 as reliable as you expected.


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## ReleaseCandidate (May 25, 2022)

PeterN said:


> Well, Im the OP, but there is no set frame for the discussion. Just let it float freely. Lets say the topic is, is the M1 as reliable as you expected.


He quoted me talking about a hardware problém. Having high load isn't a hardware problém (can be one of software/configuration/... ), high load leading to crashes (with the usual DAWs) can be.


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## jcrosby (May 26, 2022)

rnb_2 said:


> The only thing that is in *Macintosh HD* is the base OS install - the /System folder, plus whatever system files are in /Library and /Applications. Everything that gets installed after the OS is in the Data volume, and the OS basically knits the two /Library and /Applications folders together so that they look like one.
> 
> What I have is a clone of *Macintosh HD* and *Macintosh HD - Data* (from the 'legacy' CCC backup). From there, my normal nightly backup *only updates Macintosh HD - Data* and doesn't touch the OS volume. Since the OS volume doesn't change - it can't - just updating the Data volume should keep the backup in step with my internal system drive.


Ok I get it now. While it's a change I'll have to get used to, it's not nearly as big of a change as I had the impression it was... Thanks for taking the time to explain, I really appreciate it.

And, I already work they way you described in one of your previous posts, I have my drive set up as 3 container disks... One for Samples, another for project files in addition to the OS... I Backup my Catalina volume as its own bootable external, then clone my samples and projects to folders two on a separate 8TB external. Basically it doesn't sound like it's that much of a shift, so much as just understanding how the _mechanics_ of it have changed...


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## khollister (May 26, 2022)

khollister said:


> So something really odd has happened here. Prior to my emergency trip to take care of my 96 yo father, Cubase 12 was running great on my M1Max (as was Logic and S1). Now, the ASIO realtime meter is spiking like crazy with nothing loaded even. Same MacOS version, same UAD driver, same Cubase version. Logic and S1 behave as before.


Turns out it was the latest M1 native version of SoundID Reference. Even though I wasn't using the plugin or the Systemwide audio device, it drove Cubase 12 nuts. I deleted the plugins and the systemwide driver, rebooted and we are back to normal. I did notice the SoundID plugin sent the CPU crazy in Logic as well when loaded.


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## PeterN (May 27, 2022)

khollister said:


> Turns out it was the latest M1 native version of SoundID Reference. Even though I wasn't using the plugin or the Systemwide audio device, it drove Cubase 12 nuts. I deleted the plugins and the systemwide driver, rebooted and we are back to normal. I did notice the SoundID plugin sent the CPU crazy in Logic as well when loaded.


The SoundID Reference been behind some audio issues on my MacbookPro15' 2016 too. One day audio was gone and it took some time to figure out it had sucked up all the audio and had done some app freezing. For Logic Pro X. I didn't install it on the M1 for this reason (and won't, even if is native). Good you figured it out, it had me freaking out as well.


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## terpz (May 27, 2022)

I had the 16' M1 Pro for 2 weeks, It had some issues such as the Core Audio crackling and a few random lockups for 5-10 secs but I was very happy the device until the firmware got bircked/corrupted after a MacOS update. I went to my local apple store, they attempted a Revive/Restore using a second mac which failed. Only solution was to send the laptop for a Logicboard replacement, for me this was unacceptable on a 2 week old machine due to a bug in apples software. 

I decided to get a refund and wait a few months to see if Apple ironed out these problems but in March they released 12.3 which bricked any 2021 14/16 MBP that had a logic board replacement. For most people this required a second Logic board replacement and once repaired they could not be updated to 12.3 until apple patched the bug. For a smaller majority it was possible to have the the mac downgraded to 12.2 while loosing all data in the process.

So if I accepted apples logic board replacement my machine would have been bricked a second time if updated to 12.3, again totally unacceptable. This confirmed my suspicisons that Apples firmware on these MBP's was bugged from release, I would not say this is a widespread issue at all but still an issue none the less especially on a pro machine.

Apple released 12.3.1 which patched the bug that bricked the repaired 2021 MBP but did not publically address this or confirm it was patched in their release notes instead it was left to users on the apple support forum to test for their selves.

These are great machines, I'm sure a majority of people will never have an issue but I thought it would be worth sharing my experience here. I'm a long time apple user since 2007 and I'm still considering purchasing another 2021 MBP so please do not take this post as anti apple etc. Overall I still recommened the MBP I just think its worth noting as with any 1st gen release there will be issues.


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## HCMarkus (May 27, 2022)

Just wanted to chime in on the M1 MacBook Air for live use with MainStage.... fantastic! 

I bought one (7core GPU/16GB RAM/1TB SSD) about a year ago and have been using it regularly as my sound source for live performance. It has performed really well running MainStage instruments, Kontakt, Arturia, and Omnisphere. *I'm still running the Air under macOS11.*

I use two keyboards set up as follows:

49 TOP - 49 Roland A-500 (in Plano gun case!) fits in airline overhead for out of town work
Organ drawbars on Sliders, organ presets on Drum Pads, Leslie controls on Buttons
Volume for individual patch component on Rotary Pots 
On/Off for individual patch component on Transport Buttons

88 BOTTOM- Any 88 key weighted action keyboard that transmits MIDI via USB and has a mod wheel.

Patches are set up with the 88 playing either a Grand Piano, Upright Piano, Rhodes, World, or Clav.
A Pad/String (88 mod wheel X-fade) layer is available on the 88 via Expression Pedal 1
A Brass layer (FM synth) is available on the 88 via Breath Controller.
An Organ layer is available on both the 88 and 49 via Expression Pedal 2

Additional detail sounds on layers/key ranges vary per patch, but every patch incorporates the above. So, each note played on the 88 triggers at least 8 voices. I run a buffer of 64, so MainStage is very responsive. Expression and BC control is glitch-free.

The Air has been flawless.

PS:
I carry a small umbrella for outdoor shows to protect the Air from direct sun
Pedal inputs to MainStage via an Audiofront USB pedal interface
BC via TEControl


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## PeterN (Jul 15, 2022)

Update.

Latest updates (Logic, Kontakt and MacOS + plugins) have fixed something on my MacBook Air M1. It can now run 25-30 tracks smoothly (around 25-40% CPU if Internet is off - with occasional spikes, but fever of the weird spikes). Maybe it can run even more tracks, but I dont dare to try, if it has a mood swing. I had already saved a small pile of cash for a new Macbook Pro14 M2 (in the horizon) but if it stays like this - ie. 40 tracks can be run smoothly (and 50-60 with freezing) - that cash will be saved.

Maybe other people also got things are more stable with recent updates.


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