# Can You Help Me with String Articulations?



## Rodney Money (May 18, 2016)

I feel very confident in brass, woodwinds, and percussion notation, but I am always second guessing myself concerning strings, especially slurs (maybe I should've paid more attention in cello and double bass class back in 1999, lol.) Can y'all please check over this theme that I am working on and make suggestions if needed? And please no, "Just write the notes and the string players will figure it out." I don't do that with the other families of the orchestra, so I don't want to do that either with the strings, plus my publishers might frown upon that. Thanks guys, and heck, if you want to make your own rendering of this theme for fun to showcase some string libraries also, then go for it!

Score EDIT (Took bowings out and edited ornaments.)


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## Goran (May 18, 2016)

Hi Rodney,

is there any particular reason you are writing the bowing directions in? If not, I would leave that to the player. If you are not a string player (I am not), _player knows best_ is the first rule of business when it comes to bowing markings (under the assumption you are not, let's say, a conductor trying to achieve _a specific effect_ in phrasing/dynamics by insisting on particular bowing directions).

I don't know how used cello players are to reading longer bass clef passages on higher auxilliary lines, but performing musicians normally tend to find prolonged passages on these tiring to read - you can consider switching to the treble clef for higher passages (or to tenor clef if you prefer the old school solution


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## thesteelydane (May 19, 2016)

Yeah don't write bowings, unless you really, really know what you are doing. Just slurs and articulation markings. When I worked in orchestras we would occasionally have conductors who travelled with their own sets of parts, because they insisted on the strings playing their bowings. We always hated those guys, because none of them had any idea about what is natural to a string player.

Bowings WILL get changed. 10-20 % of rehearsal time is spent on changing bowings.

Edit: And because bowings will get changed, having them printed in the part, instead of in erasable pencil, only makes it extra annoying.


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## SillyMidOn (May 19, 2016)

1) I have to second that, leave out bowing directions, unless it is 110% necessary.
2) If in doubt, don't over-notate. There are some really, really interesting articles on this very topic in this blog by Tim Davies: http://www.timusic.net/2012/11/over-notation-nation/#.Vz2iULTg0yc
3) If you over-notate, the string players will have a private little chuckle at you. I don't play any instruments of the violin family, but it always amused me when similarly people used to give me piano parts which were horribly over-notated, with loads of pedalling and slurs, and in all honesty you don't really need either in piano playing, and then the composer would come over and give me detailed instructions on how to pedal. Sigh. The players are the pros, they know best how to use their instruments. Again, read Tim Davies' fantastic blog DeBreved on this: http://www.timusic.net
4) As mentioned above use Treble Clef or Tenor Clef for the high passages (though there are some cellists who aren't fans of tenor clef, even though they are supposed to read it "properly")
5) Another example of over-notation is in bar 9: you have a tenuto on the first quaver (C), but the next quaver is several strings away on a G an octave and fifth above - how do you expect the cellist to play the first note "long" (i.e. tenuto) if he has to move over such a distance, and play the next note in tune? He will naturally have to play the first note a bit shorter than "long"
6) I hope that helps!


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## Goran (May 19, 2016)

SillyMidOn said:


> The players are the pros, they know best how to use their instruments.



In my experience, words to live by.


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## Rodney Money (May 19, 2016)

Goran said:


> Hi Rodney,
> 
> is there any particular reason you are writing the bowing directions in? If not, I would leave that to the player. If you are not a string player (I am not), _player knows best_ is the first rule of business when it comes to bowing markings (under the assumption you are not, let's say, a conductor trying to achieve _a specific effect_ in phrasing/dynamics by insisting on particular bowing directions).
> 
> I don't know how used cello players are to reading longer bass clef passages on higher auxiliary lines, but performing musicians normally tend to find prolonged passages on these tiring to read - you can consider switching to the treble clef for higher passages (or to tenor clef if you prefer the old school solution


Thank you for the first response, my friend. There is a particular reason that I was writing the bowing directions in, but I posted this theme here to seek the advice of others. Back in the day this theme was part of a 5 minute work that was performed live on several occasions, but now I want to turn it into its true form being part of a much larger work. The original was not as ornate consisting of mostly the first 8 measures then repeated up an 8va. The first 8 measures were the articulations and bow markings written on his part by the first chair cello soloists named Thomas. Then the next measures played an 8va higher were inspired by the articulations and bow markings of the concert master, but in this form the cello plays the theme also in the higher register and the part is more decorated with ornamentation for expression. So in short, real string players helped inspire the markings on the score. The down bows especially help give emphasis on the downbeats of the 4/4 time signature. At least that was the main goal in my own mind. Moments such as the downbeats to measures: 9, 17, and 18 feel as though they needed to be stressed with a down bow. I only took 1 semester of cello and double bass back in 1999 of college so I am definitely not a string player, but as both a conductor and composer I feel as though like you said, "... trying to achieve _a specific effect_ in phrasing/dynamics by insisting on particular bowing directions." Thomas, my cellist and friend from back in the day, debuted a piece of mine called "The Garden of Love" which still to this day shows his personal bow markings in the printed score. The photo is what is attached in this post. Since my publisher left the bow markings, I was wondering if I should continue the "tradition" in future publications intended for live performances.

I actually kind of prefer this live version. It's more _me_:


I would love to know what a cello player prefers when their part goes above the clef. I know that at least with the violinists that I've worked with that they prefer the part written with ledger lines in contrast to simply writing 8va on their part? I am wondering if it is the same with all string players. I think everyone of my trombone friends hate tenor clef and just tell me to write ledger lines also like the violins.


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## OleJoergensen (May 19, 2016)

Its a beautiful theme.


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## Rodney Money (May 19, 2016)

thesteelydane said:


> Yeah don't write bowings, unless you really, really know what you are doing. Just slurs and articulation markings. When I worked in orchestras we would occasionally have conductors who travelled with their own sets of parts, because they insisted on the strings playing their bowings. We always hated those guys, because none of them had any idea about what is natural to a string player.
> 
> Bowings WILL get changed. 10-20 % of rehearsal time is spent on changing bowings.
> 
> Edit: And because bowings will get changed, having them printed in the part, instead of in erasable pencil, only makes it extra annoying.


Real quick response first, as a string player which one would feel more natural?


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## thesteelydane (May 19, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Real quick response first, as a string player which one would feel more natural?


I'm not a cellist, so I really can't tell you. Sorry. They're bowing style is obviously different, but it also depends on the tempo, and of cours the player. There is no right or wrong answer.


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## Rodney Money (May 19, 2016)

thesteelydane said:


> Yeah don't write bowings, unless you really, really know what you are doing. Just slurs and articulation markings. When I worked in orchestras we would occasionally have conductors who travelled with their own sets of parts, because they insisted on the strings playing their bowings. We always hated those guys, because none of them had any idea about what is natural to a string player.
> 
> Bowings WILL get changed. 10-20 % of rehearsal time is spent on changing bowings.
> 
> Edit: And because bowings will get changed, having them printed in the part, instead of in erasable pencil, only makes it extra annoying.


Thank you for your response, my friend, especially from a string player. I noticed you said, _"10-20 % of rehearsal time is spent on changing bowings." _That is a lot of time in my personal conducting experience. I couldn't imagine the brass players spending 10-20% on whether or not their Harmon mutes should be stem in, out, or half-way. What if the bowing was already marked by another string player making the part feel natural already saving that extra 20% of rehearsal time? Would the bowing still get changed? Trust me, I would love not to write bowing, it would make my life so much easier, but I do want it to feel natural and still be my interpretation compositionally.


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## Rodney Money (May 19, 2016)

thesteelydane said:


> I'm not a cellist, so I really can't tell you. Sorry. They're bowing style is obviously different, but it also depends on the tempo, and of course the player. There is no right or wrong answer.


Thank you for your honesty!


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## Rodney Money (May 19, 2016)

OleJoergensen said:


> Its a beautiful theme.


Thank you, my friend. I have the entire piece in my mind what I want to do with it. Maybe after I complete this darn trumpet concerto I can start to work on it.


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## muk (May 19, 2016)

As Dane wrote. I'm not a cellist either, but in my work for an orchestra I learned quickly that bowings are a very personal part of any orchestras interpretation. It is part of the artistic process. Our orchestra often changes their own bowings if they replay a work at a later time. Exact same players, exact same work, different bowings. And even though the concertmaster and voice leaders mark their parts thoroughly before rehearsing, there are always - and I mean literally always - changes and revisions to be made during rehearsals. It's something the orchestra as a whole has to make out between them, and the conductor. It's very much part of how they want to interpret a work, and that interpretation gets changed and refined during rehearsals.

Of course it is up to you to indicate the bowings you want. But they will be changed, or even be flat out ignored. Professional players may take their cues if your markings are stringent, but they won't break a sweat changing them wherever they feel it appropriate. So, a good advice generally is to leave it up to the players wherever possible. Trust them to find the solution that works best for them, and for your work.


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## thesteelydane (May 19, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Thank you for your response, my friend, especially from a string player. I noticed you said, _"10-20 % of rehearsal time is spent on changing bowings." _That is a lot of time in my personal conducting experience. I couldn't imagine the brass players spending 10-20% on whether or not their Harmon mutes should be stem in, out, or half-way. What if the bowing was already marked by another string player making the part feel natural already saving that extra 20% of rehearsal time? Would the bowing still get changed? Trust me, I would love not to write bowing, it would make my life so much easier, but I do want it to feel natural and still be my interpretation compositionally.



Much of this changing happens during playing, one desk at a time, or while the conductor is working with other groups. Most pro string sections are very adept at this, the principals look at each other, (often silently) agrees on a change, and it filters through the section and gets written in the part in a minute or two. It's the section leaders job to make bowings ahead of time, together with the other string principals. Often though, you find things not working in real life because of the way the winds are phrasing, or the tempo the conductor wants, or something else. There are a million reasons to change bowings in rehearsals, a lot of them bad, but change will always happen. Believe me, the less changing the happier we are, unless a bowing is making your job harder than it has to be, because it's stupid. But things WILL get changed, once the players start to understand the music. Reaching a shared interpretation and understanding of a piece of music, especially a new non-standard repertoire one, takes time, work and above all experimentation. It's a "work in progress" that goes all the way through dress rehearsal. It takes as much creativity and fluid, flexible thinking interpreting your piece as it took you to write it, so if you set your bowings in stone by printing them in the score, you're fighting that process, and possibly missing out on a better solution. Hope that makes sense.

Edit: I see muk said pretty much the same thing while I was typing this, and his words are spot on! Professional players won't think twice about changing your bowings, and it's just annoying if we can't erase them. It's much better to have a chat with the section leaders before the first rehearsal, and let them know how you intend things to be phrased, but let them write the bowings. It's part of what they get paid their higher salaries for.


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## Rodney Money (May 19, 2016)

muk said:


> As Dane wrote. I'm not a cellist either, but in my work for an orchestra I learned quickly that bowings are a very personal part of any orchestras interpretation. It is part of the artistic process. Our orchestra often changes their own bowings if they replay a work at a later time. Exact same players, exact same work, different bowings. And even though the concertmaster and voice leaders mark their parts thoroughly before rehearsing, there are always - and I mean literally always - changes and revisions to be made during rehearsals. It's something the orchestra as a whole has to make out between them, and the conductor. It's very much part of how they want to interpret a work, and that interpretation gets changed and refined during rehearsals.
> 
> Of course it is up to you to indicate the bowings you want. But they will be changed, or even be flat out ignored. Professional players may take their cues if your markings are stringent, but they won't break a sweat changing them wherever they feel it appropriate. So, a good advice generally is to leave it up to the players wherever possible. Trust them to find the solution that works best for them, and for your work.


Awesome. Thank you for the more detailed information!


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## wpc982 (May 19, 2016)

The bowings do not seem like a good idea. A couple other points -- the glissandi without a slur: do you mean for the note at the end of the slur to be re-bowed? If not, I'd add a slur. And please use tenor clef for much of the medium-high stuff, from about F up a 10th to A. If you stay up above A for awhile then maybe treble clef. And usually a grace note is slurred to the next note, only, and not to a group of notes.

I'd disagree with SillyMidOn in a couple of points -- the tenuto is not a mistake, in bar 9, if that's what you want. Sure the player has to change strings, but your notation gives the indication of the sound and the player can figure out how to do it -- maybe by rubato. And Tim's blog is useful and all, but very very strongly oriented to a single kind of music and performance situation, and is not a good guide for concert music.


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## Rodney Money (May 19, 2016)

wpc982 said:


> The bowings do not seem like a good idea. A couple other points -- the glissandi without a slur: do you mean for the note at the end of the slur to be re-bowed? If not, I'd add a slur. And please use tenor clef for much of the medium-high stuff, from about F up a 10th to A. If you stay up above A for awhile then maybe treble clef. And usually a grace note is slurred to the next note, only, and not to a group of notes.
> 
> I'd disagree with SillyMidOn in a couple of points -- the tenuto is not a mistake, in bar 9, if that's what you want. Sure the player has to change strings, but your notation gives the indication of the sound and the player can figure out how to do it -- maybe by rubato. And Tim's blog is useful and all, but very very strongly oriented to a single kind of music and performance situation, and is not a good guide for concert music.


Yes re-bowed. Concerning tenor clef and treble clef for higher parts, are you a cellists, because violinists have told me that they rather see ledger lines. I need to hear this from a cello player before I change the part. A slur must go through all the notes that are being slurred.


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## Rodney Money (May 19, 2016)

wpc982 said:


> I'd disagree with SillyMidOn in a couple of points -- the tenuto is not a mistake, in bar 9, if that's what you want. Sure the player has to change strings, but your notation gives the indication of the sound and the player can figure out how to do it -- maybe by rubato. And Tim's blog is useful and all, but very very strongly oriented to a single kind of music and performance situation, and is not a good guide for concert music.


I felt exactly the same.


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## Goran (May 20, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> The first 8 measures were the articulations and bow markings written on his part by the first chair cello soloists named Thomas. Then the next measures played an 8va higher were inspired by the articulations and bow markings of the concert master, but in this form the cello plays the theme also in the higher register and the part is more decorated with ornamentation for expression.



I would go in the direction of what Dane and muk wrote. However, if you by all means want your printed score to contain specific bowings for the reasons you mention, then I would go about that with adding a note saying the bowing markings are _bowings suggested by Thomas X who first performed the piece_ (or something similar). That way the players won't feel like the composer is trying to impose something on them they know best how to do, but will see the markings as an interpretive suggestion which was actually used by somebody.

So this way you have the markings you want to suggest in, but they don't come across as you meddling with player's business with no reason or piece performance experience to back it up.


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## Rodney Money (May 20, 2016)

thesteelydane said:


> Much of this changing happens during playing, one desk at a time, or while the conductor is working with other groups. Most pro string sections are very adept at this, the principals look at each other, (often silently) agrees on a change, and it filters through the section and gets written in the part in a minute or two. It's the section leaders job to make bowings ahead of time, together with the other string principals. Often though, you find things not working in real life because of the way the winds are phrasing, or the tempo the conductor wants, or something else. There are a million reasons to change bowings in rehearsals, a lot of them bad, but change will always happen. Believe me, the less changing the happier we are, unless a bowing is making your job harder than it has to be, because it's stupid. But things WILL get changed, once the players start to understand the music. Reaching a shared interpretation and understanding of a piece of music, especially a new non-standard repertoire one, takes time, work and above all experimentation. It's a "work in progress" that goes all the way through dress rehearsal. It takes as much creativity and fluid, flexible thinking interpreting your piece as it took you to write it, so if you set your bowings in stone by printing them in the score, you're fighting that process, and possibly missing out on a better solution. Hope that makes sense.
> 
> Edit: I see muk said pretty much the same thing while I was typing this, and his words are spot on! Professional players won't think twice about changing your bowings, and it's just annoying if we can't erase them. It's much better to have a chat with the section leaders before the first rehearsal, and let them know how you intend things to be phrased, but let them write the bowings. It's part of what they get paid their higher salaries for.


Hello my violin friend. I transcribed the cello line into violin. Can you be so kind to tell me if you would change any of the slurs, the level of difficulty of this short solo, and anything else you can think of? Thank you so much! (Also, if you noticed I took the bowings out.)  (EDIT: Added turn.)


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## Paul T McGraw (May 20, 2016)

I played cello for 10 years, all of high school and college but this was 1968 to 1978, so it has been a long time. The bowing marks will be ignored, and rightly so. It will just create a problem that they are printed on the music. The better a player becomes, the more personal the bowings for a solo will be for that player. Sectional parts are usually bowed by the conductor or the first chair, or arrived at by a sort of group decision. Sometimes composers will indicate a specific bowing because of a particular effect that is desired. For example a down bow is usually stronger and helps to add emphasis. An up bow is marginally better for entering into a phrase gently. When a composer very sparingly includes bowings for these sorts of reasons, the markings will be respected.

For string parts, use slurs to indicate legato phrasing. If the players need to break it up into multiple bowing, they will know how to change bow direction while keeping a legato phrase.

Use of the tenor clef is fairly standard, but is usually only used above the G above the staff. In your piece that is only for about 2 measures, so I wouldn't worry about putting in the tenor clef. The high C is getting into dangerous territory for the cello, but you approach it stepwise so it should be OK. For a full cello section, only a pro orchestra would get that line in tune.

Concerning the three alternatives in your post #8, see my first paragraph. However, this is a very confusing bar. A quarter note plus sextuplet would be easier and much clearer than the half note with six grace notes.

Finally, I don't think anyone has mentioned the portamento in the lower register. In bar 8 I fear you might end up with an unintended comic effect. While these portamento effects often work well in virtual instruments, it sounds much better in the higher register on the cello, say from A 440 and up. It might come off OK with a very good player, or it might not be at all what you were expecting. In the first sound clip you included with your original post, the player almost ignores the portamento markings, and it sounds fine. A player might assume you want a glissando and that would detract from the piece I think.

Congratulations on the publications with Alfreds on your previous work! This really is a wonderful theme.


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## Goran (May 20, 2016)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Sometimes composers will indicate a specific bowing because of a particular effect that is desired. For example a down bow is usually stronger and helps to add emphasis. An up bow is marginally better for entering into a phrase gently. When a composer very sparingly includes bowings for these sorts of reasons, the markings will be respected.



My experience is the same as what Paul wrote above. Only when there is an obvious solid reason for composer's bowing markings (such as in the two typical examples described above) will these be taken into consideration. Writing bowings throughout only makes sense in the specific case of adding these as bowings suggested by a particular player (which should be explicitly stated as such).


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## bbunker (May 20, 2016)

Just as an editorial aside - that passage that you focused on at m. 14 might better be notated as the grace note leading to the downbeat note with a turn, followed by two grace notes to the next note. If your string players have played Haydn (and, I'm guessing they have!) then they'll effortlessly give you what you want with less ink on the page. Paul's suggestion does it in a 'metered' way - both would be easier to read, I'd think!

Totally agree with Goran and Paul on the bowing recommendations, too.


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## thesteelydane (May 21, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Hello my violin friend. I transcribed the cello line into violin. Can you be so kind to tell me if you would change any of the slurs, the level of difficulty of this short solo, and anything else you can think of? Thank you so much! (Also, if you noticed I took the bowings out.)


Hey sorry for the late reply, was off the internet for a few busy days. I'll take a look at this, instrument in hand, first chance I get, but I have a busy writing deadline so it may be a few days. I'll get back to you ASAP!


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## Rodney Money (May 23, 2016)

Paul T McGraw said:


> I played cello for 10 years, all of high school and college but this was 1968 to 1978, so it has been a long time. The bowing marks will be ignored, and rightly so. It will just create a problem that they are printed on the music. The better a player becomes, the more personal the bowings for a solo will be for that player. Sectional parts are usually bowed by the conductor or the first chair, or arrived at by a sort of group decision. Sometimes composers will indicate a specific bowing because of a particular effect that is desired. For example a down bow is usually stronger and helps to add emphasis. An up bow is marginally better for entering into a phrase gently. When a composer very sparingly includes bowings for these sorts of reasons, the markings will be respected.
> 
> For string parts, use slurs to indicate legato phrasing. If the players need to break it up into multiple bowing, they will know how to change bow direction while keeping a legato phrase.
> 
> ...


Always a pleasure to read your thoughts, my friend. Thank you so very much for the response and the insight of a cello player! So less is more, tenor clef when the melody is soaring from G and above for multiple measures, and I am going to try out another way to write that measure (darn my Celtic blood and concerto repertoire lol.) Thank you for the warning of the portamento in the bass clef. The last thing I would want is a comic affect. I did a similar effect in The Garden of Love at the end which sounded like all hope was lost, so I am hoping this theme will produce a similar effect. Thank you for pointing that out. The Garden of Love was my 2nd piece ever published back in the day. They have asked for more, even a complete symphony (requiem) and a book on teaching, but I told them, "I am going through something right now as a composer. Maybe I am looking for a new sound, maybe it's the perfectionist in me, maybe it's something else, but publications have to wait, because I am going through something musically right now that I cannot firmly place my finger on like I could in the past. Take care, my friend!


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## Rodney Money (May 23, 2016)

bbunker said:


> Just as an editorial aside - that passage that you focused on at m. 14 might better be notated as the grace note leading to the downbeat note with a turn, followed by two grace notes to the next note. If your string players have played Haydn (and, I'm guessing they have!) then they'll effortlessly give you what you want with less ink on the page. Paul's suggestion does it in a 'metered' way - both would be easier to read, I'd think!
> 
> Totally agree with Goran and Paul on the bowing recommendations, too.


Thanks man, I am definitely going to try this out!


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## Rodney Money (May 23, 2016)

thesteelydane said:


> Hey sorry for the late reply, was off the internet for a few busy days. I'll take a look at this, instrument in hand, first chance I get, but I have a busy writing deadline so it may be a few days. I'll get back to you ASAP!


Looking forward to it! I know about busy deadlines. I have a concert tonight debuting two of my pieces. God help us all.


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## Rodney Money (May 23, 2016)

bbunker said:


> Just as an editorial aside - that passage that you focused on at m. 14 might better be notated as the grace note leading to the downbeat note with a turn, followed by two grace notes to the next note. If your string players have played Haydn (and, I'm guessing they have!) then they'll effortlessly give you what you want with less ink on the page. Paul's suggestion does it in a 'metered' way - both would be easier to read, I'd think!
> 
> Totally agree with Goran and Paul on the bowing recommendations, too.


How's this?


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