# Best ways to record MIDI at a dynamic tempo?



## DaddyO (Oct 29, 2016)

There is an interaction between tempo and performance that becomes difficult when record MIDI in a sequencer for music with a dynamic (i.e., changing) tempo. 

With a sequencer you pretty much have to record your MIDI at a constant temp and then go back and do your best to draw in tempo curves after the fact. But this loses the feel of the interaction when you record. 

Another possibility for Cubase users like myself is to record free of sequencer tempo constraints and then try to use the Time Warp tool (I think I'm remembering the name of the tool correctly) to adjust the tempo to the recording. My experience with this some time ago has been brief and unproductive. It seems like any adjustment you make in one place messes up other places in the recording. Also, the adjustments between beats are problematic, at least for me.

So I'm wondering, have any people at VI Control found helpful techniques for recording MIDI with dynamic tempo in such a way that your performance captures the sense of the music?


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## muk (Oct 29, 2016)

There is no way around performing without click for me. Tempo curves work after performing for minor adjustments for me, but not to shape the tempo of an entire piece that has been recorded to a steady beat. While the second process would be less work, it doesn't quite do it in terms of a natural feel of the tempo. And performing to a steady beat where there shouldn't be one often affects my 'performance' negatively as well.

My workflow: 

1. set all tracks to 'linear' mode (clock symbol). In this mode the tracks don't follow the changes made to the tempo map.

2. record the leading instrument in free tempo, without click. If it is an orchestral piece I often record a piano track as guide for the tempo.

3. record all instruments if it is easy to follow the timing of the leading instrument/the piano guide track. If it isn't, set up a midi track without a vst instrument loaded. Tap with the beat of the leading instrument and record the tapping to that track. Under 'Midi' - 'Functions' I then select 'Merge tempo from tapping'. The results should be quite good, but most often I need to make some corrections using the Time Warp Tool.

4. After that is done I have a tempo map that is following my leading instrument/the piano guide track. The grid is properly aligned, and I could quantize tracks should I want to.

Now I set all my tracks to 'musical' mode (note symbol). In this mode the tracks follow all changes made to the tempo map. If I want to fine tune the tempo in some places, I can do that now through the tempo map.

That's it, basically. There must be dozens of ways you could go about recording in Cubase, but that's one that works well for me.


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## DaddyO (Oct 29, 2016)

Ah, thanks muk. That's exactly the sort of response I was hoping for. Responses from others are welcome.


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## Soundhound (Oct 29, 2016)

I thought this was a helpful video from Christian Henson describing a process that seems similar to muk's? I work in Logic so it was easy for me to follow. Haven't tried it yet but plan to.


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## NoamL (Oct 29, 2016)

My method -

1. Record yourself singing your piece, or using a clicker to conduct it, whatever works for you.

2. Import the audio into your DAW and draw a tempo map to line it up with the click.

3. Now record your MIDI "to click" and it will be on the grid yet have built-in rubato.

Christian's method is faster but it often doesn't work for me because there are large tempo changes within the same measure.


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## pmcrockett (Oct 29, 2016)

I often do something similar to what muk and NoamL describe -- I videorecord myself conducting the piece and generate the tempo map based on that. Then I record without click using only the conductor video and the other recorded tracks for reference. The visual cues provided by a conductor make it easier to follow tempo changes compared to playing with only a variable-tempo click-track.


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## DaddyO (Oct 29, 2016)

Thanks all, helpful input.


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## jononotbono (Nov 1, 2016)

I didn't see this thread before just starting one about the same thing. Anyone using the Cubase feature for getting timing from Midi? 

Also I am wondering, if tapping the tempo via a Midi keyboard, is there a way of using that Midi data to fire off my Urei Click sample in Cubase's metronome? Perhaps I should load the Urei Click in, for example, Geoove Agent and then use that for firing of the Urei Click sound? Can't afford a Click Kicker yet but will get one as soon as I can!


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## muk (Nov 1, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Anyone using the Cubase feature for getting timing from Midi



Yup. It's the 'Merge tempo from tapping', I it use regularly. It works quite well, just needs a bit of manual adjustment after that.


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## Daryl (Nov 1, 2016)

muk said:


> Yup. It's the 'Merge tempo from tapping', I it use regularly. It works quite well, just needs a bit of manual adjustment after that.


And of course just dragging the barline round is really simple, once you have a rough click track. I often do this when creating a backing for bands, and it is really quick and easy.


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## jononotbono (Nov 1, 2016)

Good to know. Also, in Cubase can I tap Midi data in with a Keyboard controller and have each tap write to the tempo track? This would be an incredibly easy way of getting a tempo track sorted. I have however read that tempo ramps in Cubase can affect the playback of some Sample Libraries?


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## Daryl (Nov 1, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Good to know. Also, in Cubase can I tap Midi data in with a Keyboard controller and have each tap write to the tempo track? This would be an incredibly easy way of getting a tempo track sorted. I have however read that tempo ramps in Cubase can affect the playback of some Sample Libraries?


Yes, and yes, but why would you be using a ramp? The tempo track would consist of jumps.


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## jononotbono (Nov 1, 2016)

It was just something I read about and haven't experienced myself. 

Tapping the tempo straight into the tempo track? That's brilliant!


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## Daryl (Nov 1, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Tapping the tempo straight into the tempo track? That's brilliant!


Ah yes, but it doesn't quite do what you're thinking.

What you need to do is set up a MIDI track, record your tapping, check it back, move barlines, if necessary, and then do the Merge Tempo from Tapping.


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## jononotbono (Nov 1, 2016)

Ok thanks! I'm going to try this out later tonight! I really do have to stop using a rigid BPM for everything. It's an imprisonment like I found only writing Pop/Rock songs.


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## Harry (Nov 14, 2016)

Hei Luke - how did you get on with the tempo tracking in Cubase - does it work anything like Christian's video (above)? I have something similar - a piano track which I need to get a tempo map from.


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## jononotbono (Nov 15, 2016)

I'm currently working on some sound design stuff so haven't had the time to properly try this out. I plan on writing a few pieces soon and am itching to try this method out!


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## Patrick de Caumette (Nov 15, 2016)

Personally, if an instrument can be used as a master tempo indicator, such as the piano that is used in this video, i'll play that part first, render it to audio, and then tempo map it using the warp tool. once you have rendered your master tempo instrument it takes about 5 minutes to map it
at the most...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 15, 2016)

I'd be interested in hearing how people do this in Logic.

My technique when I've recorded something without a click is to record (and if necessary, edit) quarter notes on another track while listening to the first, then use Beat Mapping, and then delete the tempo changes.


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## Will Blackburn (Nov 28, 2016)

The tap tempo method in cubase never works properly for me. I wih there was a better solution. I end up just quantising my piano performance, then add swing to it and then have an alternating tempo by a couple of bpm's either side. Cubase start stuttering aswell when i have loads of tempo changes. So annoying. Would like to here of any other workarounds. The tempo track is abit like their automation data, so fiddly and massively in need of an overhaul!

What's that kick clicker about? And how can it really justify a 248d price tag


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## JohnG (Nov 28, 2016)

Digital Performer allows you to play to a free tempo, then lock that performance and slide the bars (and / or) beats around so that the music retains as much of the original performance as you like. They you unlock the performance if you want to smooth anything out or alter it for overdubs and so on.

It's very fast and easy to use.


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## Morodiene (Nov 28, 2016)

I figure out the target tempo whenever I have a rit. or something, and then create the entire tempo map in Logic. Then I go through and record whatever line has the melody or an important part, from start to finish. So I may be switching often between instruments, but I'll fill out sections before I move on. If I need to tweak the tempo map, I do so with the first instrument I use in that particular section, and replay it if necessary.

I find this much easier, and I am not good enough to be able to play without the metronome clicking away when creating large ensemble stuff. So I need that to be clicking at the right tempo with the rit./accel. stuff in there already.


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## curry36 (Jan 30, 2021)

muk said:


> There is no way around performing without click for me. Tempo curves work after performing for minor adjustments for me, but not to shape the tempo of an entire piece that has been recorded to a steady beat. While the second process would be less work, it doesn't quite do it in terms of a natural feel of the tempo. And performing to a steady beat where there shouldn't be one often affects my 'performance' negatively as well.
> 
> My workflow:
> 
> ...


I am doing this method and it's working, however I wish that my instrument sketch (which is in MIDI because I wan't to do changes later) would also adjust with the new tempo map that has been drawn from my tapping track. If it was only an audio recording from which I wanted to draw a tempo map, it would work flawless.

Right now I am using the time stretch tool to match the initial MIDI performance with an audio print from itself, so I get the beginning and the ending aligned. Afterwards I have to quantize every single note manually. Am I missing something? I'm sure there is an easier way to get around this. (Cubase)


Thanks in advance!


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## kilgurt (Jan 30, 2021)

Great, very helpful thread!


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## muk (Jan 30, 2021)

curry36 said:


> I wish that my instrument sketch (which is in MIDI because I wan't to do changes later) would also adjust with the new tempo map that has been drawn from my tapping track.


I am not sure I can follow you. You have an instrument sketch as midi track. And you tap along to this instrument sketch track to create the tempo map. Is that right? If so, all you need to do is to change the instrument sketch track from linear mode (clock symbol) to musical mode (quarter note symbol) after creating the tempo track. Now the instrument sketch track will follow all changes you make to the tempo track.


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## curry36 (Jan 30, 2021)

muk said:


> I am not sure I can follow you. You have an instrument sketch as midi track. And you tap along to this instrument sketch track to create the tempo map. Is that right? If so, all you need to do is to change the instrument sketch track from linear mode (clock symbol) to musical mode (quarter note symbol) after creating the tempo track. Now the instrument sketch track will follow all changes you make to the tempo track.


Oh, my mistake. I was only looking at the toolbar on the top where you can toogle musical mode for audio files. Didn't know there was a clock per track option. Now I got you! Awesome, and thanks a lot!


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## JamieLang (Jan 31, 2021)

I don't know what the OP's issue is really. I might take for granted that I've done human tempo mapping in every app I've every used: Performer in the 90s...later the "digital performer"....Logic5 on Windows....Logic X on a modern Mac...Cubase insert a million version here on Windows and Mac...

I think maybe the most important conceptual part that isn't self explanatory is that, as a rule, you want tempo changes at the bar line. You DON'T want to map every beat to something you played, because where you PLAY...and the musical pulse (which is what the click is) are NOT inherently the same thing. And EVERY kind of cut/paste/quantize functions--all of that depends on even pulses. You aren't looking for the "click" to literally play in sync with whatever was played that's being mapped--you want it to SOUND and FEEL like the musical pulse it is representative of...

The technical isn't really that hard....in Cubase you make sure the midi track is in linear time mode...and you can try to have it extract...or tap a secondary one--I actually tend to use a real mic and clap along--as it seems more accurate to me than tapping a MIDI keyboard that is then firing a sample...but, I've done it both way. Then you listen to the performance with the "new click" going...and use the Warp tool to fine tune it so that it SOUNDS and feels like a normal click track.

Anyway--you want the pulse represented, NOT where someone played, so if you for example rush the one, you WANT it to click awkwardly after the accent...because your intentionally playing early and wanting that feel didn't MOVE the pulse forward. That rushed feel IS a result of the rub against the expected pulse...this means that autodetection WILL be flawed and need brushing up. Apple's now discontinued Music Memos seems to do better than LogicX's Smart Tempo that come from it...


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