# Ported nearfield monitors badness?



## novicecomposer (May 12, 2014)

Hello--

I'm looking to buy monitors to replace my pc speakers. Mike Senior, the author of "Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio", explains with a passion why ported speakers are to be avoided for mixdown. He points out problems such as [1]. 

Even though he seems to have valid points backed by his scientific data, I'm having a hard time trying to find monitors that are not ported; all those I've seen are ported -- Adam, Quested, etc..

It seems many pros are using ported monitors anyway, so I'm a little confused. What do you guys think?

Thanks,
Heather

[1] 
- "although the speaker’s overall low frequency output is boosted by the port, the relationship between the sub-50Hz levels and the rest of the signal is seriously skewed at the same time, which makes it trickier to make judgments about instruments with important low-frequency components"

- "Much more troublesome is the way that porting hinders the monitor’s ability to track moment-to-moment changes in the mix signal."

- "the ringing of the port can dominate over the real fundamental frequencies of low bass notes, making them difficult to distinguish from each other."

- "ports can also produce turbulence noise, which obscures other parts of your mix"


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## rayinstirling (May 12, 2014)

You can use as I do, a 3 way system where the sub handles everything below a crossover point around 110Hz so the stereo satellites whether ported or not don't handle these bass frequencies. I use a Bluesky system which (reviewed in SOS 8 years ago) is nolonger available but there are other choices.


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## Beat Kaufmann (May 13, 2014)

Please take into account that all speakers are "a compromise".
What we get is always an optimized result. Also the outsourced sub bass is such a compromise...
What you can do in case of ported Monitors: 
Try to look for a "front ported monitor" when you plan to place the monitors closer to a wall (which isn't the best idea anyway).

But then: What counts is the acoustic result and not texts about physical matters. These matters where already treated by Adam, Genelec, Event and all the other monitor companies.

About ported or not:
See that the room treatment can also lead to bad or good results...
As I mentioned above: The whole theme "monitor" is "finding compromises" - and this not only with "ported" or not and the speaker itself. No, also with cables, stands, walls, dampers, acoustic walls, 2way-3way system, coax-system, room dimensions, the speaker placement,...

And over all are your possibilities with the money 
*In other words: Listen, listen, listen to monitors not reed, reed, reed about them. *


All the best
Beat


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## chrisr (May 13, 2014)

I think other individual parts of speaker design and listening environment could also be deconstructed and it would probably sound equally as unflattering, after all speakers and cabinets can be pretty absurd when you start to analyse them, although I'm no expert in the matter.

I expect one could argue a few points/ways in which bass ports can be said to also subjectively improve the sound over non-ported designs. All designs in the near/mid market will likely have issues of one sort or another, so you won't find 'perfection' I'm afraid.

Many shortcomings of speakers can be accounted for, simply by becoming familiar with them cross checking the sound as much as possible. Headphones for example will generally reproduce bass quite faithfully in comparison with most monitors, so they can be a useful resource, as can the simple practice of A/B comparisons.

As you say - most seem to be ported - of various monitors I've worked with over the years, only the NS-10's weren't ported, as far as I can remember - the rest were.

The best advice I can offer is: Whatever monitor you choose will be flawed in some way(s), and it's up to you to identify those and learn to work through them. I think there's actually quite a large area that's considered 'ok' for a mix - and that within that zone, people are quite forgiving. They will hear stop hearing 'the mix', and just listen to the music.


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## Hannes_F (May 13, 2014)

novicecomposer,

welcome to this forum. Hang your hat and enjoy the conversation.

Traditionally HIFI-systems (low loudness to mass ratio but high fidelity) used to be non-ported while ports or bass reflex systems came from PA systems (high loudess to weight ratio, fidelity compromised for being able to play louder with the same input power). However I think today many monitor makers have found ways to circumvent the disadvantages of ports, at least partially, and use it for producing cost effective monitors.

Therefore, apart from the bluesky system that Ray mentions and that is not available any more there are very few non-ported options for monitors unless you go into the 4-5k range (if we set aside exotics like the Avantone mix cube). The Neumann KH 310 A is almost an entry point for non-ported monitors, and it already is a very approved monitor, more near high end than average. Many composers here work with (ported) monitors much less expensive than that.

The only thing I would take care of is that the port should be to the front side, not to the back side. Other than that there are excellent ported monitors.

So, while there might be some basic truth in what Mike Senior says this is somewhat dated information and if it is still relevent this is clearly happening in a different monitor cost league (think more mastering studio than composer). Also even many mastering studios use ported monitors like B & W etc.


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## Ozymandias (May 13, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Tue May 13 said:


> However I think today many monitor makers have found ways to circumvent the disadvantages of ports, at least partially, and use it for producing cost effective monitors.



"Circumvent" is a bit of a strong word. 

As I understand it, where low frequencies are concerned ported and sealed nearfield cabinets each have their characteristics, and you have to accept the trade-off. (Or buy both!)


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## Hannes_F (May 13, 2014)

Oxymandias,

interesting measurements. Are you suggesting that the boom resonances in the bass are rather coming from the ported design of the speakers than from the room?

EDIT: Newell measurements done in an anechoic chamber. Knew I'd seen them before. You might have a point.


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## Ozymandias (May 13, 2014)

They were measured in an anechoic chamber, so yes.

They're from the following paper, which has lots of waterfall plots for various nearfield monitors. Well worth a read:

http://www.soundonsound.com/pdfs/ns10m.pdf


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## Hannes_F (May 13, 2014)

@Ozymandias: Exactly, good find. This paper also shows a waterfall diagram for the K & H O198 which was the precedessor for the mentioned Neumann KH 310. The bass response is way shorter, clearly a result of the non-ported design.

That being said 
- in order for this to be relevant we need a room with a bass response similarly short which is not easy
- music for movies is meant to be played back with ported speakers
- the study is from 2001 and it would be interesting to compare measurements of more contemporary ported nearfield monitors like the Neumann KH 120 A

Bottom line: If these are the first monitors after listening to computer speakers then I would say go ahead and buy ported speakers in the 1.5 k price range (for an active couple) from Neumann or Adam, don't care about ported or non-ported and be happy for many years. That is what I would do.


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## rayinstirling (May 13, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Tue May 13 said:


> Bottom line: If these are the first monitors after listening to computer speakers then I would say go ahead and buy ported speakers in the 1.5 k price range (for an active couple) from Neumann or Adam, don't care about ported or non-ported and be happy for many years. That is what I would do.



I agree, most important is learning what sound you want to achieve and knowing how to get it. Many hours listening through these speakers to Commercial CD tracks of the music you wish to emulate. Then match it.


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## bcarwell (May 13, 2014)

I seem to recall in research before purchasing nearfields that a downside to the rear ported monitors was if they had to be placed near a wall that reflections off the wall could be problematic ("chuffing" I think was the term).

But if a subwoofer was used to compensate for non-ported monitors' lack of bass response, that too could be a problem, particularly in small rooms where you often have to place speakers close to walls, in placing the subwoofer correctly. I have a 12x18 room and opted for non-ported Neumann 120's with great Neumann quality and no subwoofer, and works fine for me. As you are no doubt discovering, monitors are very personal with much subjectivity and prompt almost religious discussions about their relative merits. Good luck and trust your ears.

Bob


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## Hannes_F (May 13, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Tue May 13 said:


> it would be interesting to compare measurements of more contemporary ported nearfield monitors like the Neumann KH 120 A



Found it here:
http://www.neumann-kh-line.com/neumann- ... rs_KH120A#

@Bob
If you have the Neumann KH 120 A then they have front ports. Or did I misunderstand?


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## bcarwell (May 13, 2014)

Correct, Neumann 120's are <front> ported. I should have been more precise when referring to them as being "non-ported", as I meant non-REAR ported and was talking about the chuffing from <rear> ported monitors when placed near walls. Thanks for catching that so I don't contribute misinformation to what is already an extremely difficult subject !


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 13, 2014)

I haven't talked to a speaker designer who doesn't say that acoustic suspension designs present fewer problems than ported ones, all things being equal.

But all things aren't equal. There are many ported speakers that are way better than many sealed ones and v.v.

So I agree with the posts from people who say not to pay a lot of attention to whether the speaker is ported. I also agree that rear ports make it a little harder to position the speakers in a room.

Having said that, a big part of why I like my Blue Sky system is that it has sealed cabinets plus a seamlessly integrated subwoofer. And a big part of why I like my UREI 809As is that their ports help them sound a lot less constrained! (There's much more to the designs of both systems, but we're focusing on ports in this thread.)


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 13, 2014)

In other words, novicecomposer, I'd ignore that article. There's some truth to what he's saying, but - without having read the article - it has the aroma of yet another audio person getting carried away with his own hype.


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## artsoundz (May 13, 2014)

Hey Heather,

It sounds like you are in the market for speakers so maybe it would be helpful for us to recommend speakers based on your budget and what your composing goals are. 

It wouldn't hurt to include your computer specs,daw etc. 

Welcome to VI! I hope you stick around. We need more female composers here.


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## Hannes_F (May 13, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue May 13 said:


> Having said that, a big part of why I like my Blue Sky system is that it has sealed cabinets plus a seamlessly integrated subwoofer.



Yes but why, oh why, oh why are their medium and bigger models not available any more? Such a shame.

I have considered their exo thing for a while just because it says Blue Sky on the label but I shy away because I fear it is too toy-ish compared with the System One.


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## dannthr (May 14, 2014)

In my limited experience, most small near-fields are not really appropriate for mixing low-end anyway, there's just only so much you can get out of a small driver, but a port can give you some aural cue that there's low end activity and relate some of the low-end experience, if in a limited way.

Also, it's fun to slam the bass and get a nice poof of air across your face during a sweaty mixing session!

Re: K&H

I seem to remember reading that the Neumann KH310s were sealed.


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## novicecomposer (May 14, 2014)

Thanks guys for great information and awesome opinions! 

I'm now so convinced that I much less care about ported vs non-ported. Been looking at various speakers on the web, but not sure which one to pick given a plethora of choices; I would very much appreciate if you could recommend a few good products for my budget < $2000 for orchestral composition. 

People say speakers are a highly personal choice, so I guess I would drop by stores to listen to those recommended ones and pick a pair my ears like.

Thanks!
H.


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## Jem7 (May 14, 2014)

Well, It's more about your room acoustics. If your room is crap doesn't matter if you got ported/unported, 100$ speakers or 100.000$ speakers.


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## Hannes_F (May 14, 2014)

As an afterthought to this thread here several ported and non-ported monitors are discussed, including posts by Mike Senior himself. The recommendations might be interesting:

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showf ... ber=952223


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## Ozymandias (May 14, 2014)

Interesting thread, Hannes.

"... it may actually work to your advantage to use something with a little less bass extension"

That's definitely been my experience.


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## bcarwell (May 14, 2014)

H-
Having just gone through the daunting process of monitor purchase selection myself I have a few suggestions.

Lots of folks say "Try the monitors out in your actual room". Although ideal, don't waste your time trying to find a store that will let you do that unless you are very, very lucky.

Next, I would talk to the store clerks where you will be auditioning monitors and ask them when the most quiet time is (often early in morning just when the store opens or late at night just before closing during the week and audition then. Do NOT try Fridays or the weekends when the lead guitarist from the Bleeding Earlobes is trying out a new amp at 1000 dB. Impossible to hear orchestral nuances when you are A-B-ing monitors (DOH). Once you have selections narrowed down, ideally you might find some local helpful musicians or studios who own monitors you are interested in who might be happy to let you hear them, ideally A-B-ing them if they own different brands. Try asking on Craigs List.

And lastly, I'd go to the store with an MP3 player pre-loaded with some high quality classical/orchestral pieces from the repertoire (assuming that is your interest) which you are very familiar with to use for auditions- solo piano, flute/pic, brass, bass, strings, full tuttis and percussion, large dynamic ranges etc. And bring a long cord so you can stand back in the sweet spot at the apex of the equilateral triangle and the right heighth and plug in very quickly if you find a quiet time without the store clerk fumbling around to hook you up and before Johnny Moodring inevitably shows up ten minutes later to crank up the guitar amps or try out a new trap set. And stop before ear fatigue sets in and do this several times.

May the FORCE be with you !!!!

Bruiser Bob and the Dry Heaves


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 14, 2014)

Has anyone ever heard speakers that are better than others in the store but then worse than the same speakers when you get them into your room?

That's a rhetorical question. In my opinion the reason to live with speakers is so you learn what they sound like - which can take a while, especially if you're either not used to evaluating speakers or out of practice doing that. It's not because you're going to make the wrong choice in the store.

But of course Bob's advice to bring familiar material is good.

Hannes wrote:



> I have considered their exo thing for a while just because it says Blue Sky on the label but I shy away because I fear it is too toy-ish compared with the System One.



I have (and really like) the System One. If I had to guess why they'd not make another run of them, it would be the obvious: they don't think they can sell them. There's a limited market for higher-end monitors to start with, and these days it's much smaller than it used to be.

Danthr wrote:



> In my limited experience, most small near-fields are not really appropriate for mixing low-end anyway, there's just only so much you can get out of a small driver, but a port can give you some aural cue that there's low end activity and relate some of the low-end experience, if in a limited way.



I agree, but see it from a different angle. Small nearfields' bass and lack thereof - both - are a different kind of reference. They don't do much if anything below about 60Hz, and that's both a problem (especially for things like vocal pops) and a useful reference. In pop recordings they make it obvious you need to find a clear high frequency to bring out the kick and bass, for example.

However, I'm always posting my opinion that there's no substitute for a big cabinet. I really like my Blue Sky System One (sats + sub) and wouldn't want to be without it. But even though all the frequencies are there and loud - and even though the imaging and detail are great - it's just not going to have the kick in the chest my big speakers have.

And the big speakers have different issues, of course.


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## Jack Weaver (May 14, 2014)

(I always stalk Nick when he's talking about Blue Sky speakers.)

Loved my Blue Sky System One 2.1 set. Just sold them last week to another longtime forum member after having them for six years. Mixed on them everyday as my main speakers. Once you get the sub level and crossover point set to your room you can think of them as a quasi three-way system. 

They are very reliable, easy to place in your room because of the small size of the satellite cabinets and speak truth and translatability to your mixes. Having the sub allows you to do many sorts of production style mixes. 

Please note that they are not 'ear candy' speakers. In other words they are not overly flattering. You have to work to get a sterling mix. But once you do you have a reasonable expectation that the mix should work in most playback environments. 

You could do worse than finding a good, used pair of these (with subwoofer). 

Oh interestingly, I replaced them with some ported speakers - both midfield and nearfield.

.


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## Hannes_F (May 14, 2014)

Yes Jack very nice of you to mouthwater us with an out of production product :mrgreen: 

EDIT: I see Blue Sky has a new comparable system in the pipeline. List price of $5,385 for the 2.1 system though. >8o 

BTW what do you use now if I may ask?


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 14, 2014)

They're up to $5K+?! Wow.


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## Hannes_F (May 14, 2014)

That is what their press release says (second paragraph from bottom up):

http://abluesky.com/news/blue-sky-launc ... namm-2014/


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## Jack Weaver (May 14, 2014)

Gee Hannes, 'mouthwatering' someone sounds kinda rude. I'd never do that to you. 

I'll bet if you contact Bluesky directly that might have some B-stock System One's sitting around for a good deal. 

I'm using ATC monitors now. 

.


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## Jack Weaver (May 14, 2014)

Just talked with Bluesky. 

The new system has additional digital inputs, digital room signal optimizing processing and the new Sub 12D has twice as much power. 

No older, B-stock available. Sorry.

.


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## Hannes_F (May 14, 2014)

Jack, thanks for that. I had just sent them a mail too but ...


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 14, 2014)

> I'm using ATC monitors now.



You brat! That's not fair.


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## Jack Weaver (May 14, 2014)

Well Nick, you know me well enough to understand that 'Fairness' isn't a part of my world view. :D 

Here's a pic of the front of my temporary control room here in Tucson - 150's for L, C, R. A pic of the back would show a pair of 25's for the surrounds. 
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6ve5rhf5yzee5tq/AAAPtHU-NyF4tqSF7K7W1QNNa/IMG_8195.jpg

Next month I get to move to Kalamazoo, MI for the next 3 years for my wife's medical residency. That should prove to be interesting... and I have to figure out how to put together another temporary but decent mix room in a compromised space again. 

_Just so I'm not accused of hijacking the thread - yes, both the larger midfields and smaller nearfields are ported. _

.


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## dannthr (May 14, 2014)

Look, you just can't do this with a sealed cabinet:


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## Dan Mott (May 14, 2014)

dannthr @ Thu May 15 said:


> Look, you just can't do this with a sealed cabinet:





Far out that is cute as all hell! Feel sorry for it's ears though :D


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## Hannes_F (May 20, 2014)

Jack Weaver @ Thu May 15 said:


> Here's a pic of the front of my temporary control room here in Tucson - 150's for L, C, R. A pic of the back would show a pair of 25's for the surrounds.
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6ve5rhf5yzee5tq/AAAPtHU-NyF4tqSF7K7W1QNNa/IMG_8195.jpg



Jack, don't you think these speakers are a bit smallish?

Update: Partly motivated through this thread I upgraded from my JBL LSR4328's to Neumann KH 120s that I got as B-Stock units from Studiocare Professional in the UK. It turned out they were originally sealed, only the seal was damaged at one point, that was all I could find. 

The JBL LSR4328 pak price is EUR 1650 (street price), the Neumann KH 120 A are EUR 1280 a pair (I got them for 1100). So price-wise that was a down-step. In comparision to the LSR4328 the Neumann is considerably smaller and has a much smaller woofer (5.5 inch compared to 8 inch). Now how do they compare? 

The Neumanns are moving a lot more air in the bass range. Still the JBLs sound familiar for me but I would say the Neumanns are at least 30% if not 50 % better, and at the right places: 

- Finally I can feel the bass which I never could before despite accurately treating the room.
- This happens although the measurements say that the JBLs go deeper in my room than the Neumanns. But measurements are not telling the whole truth.
- Conclusion: I always had problems with the bass balance before and hope this will be way better now.
- With the JBLs I often heard some lisp-ing (is that a word?) in the 2.8 k range ... which is their crossover point. Was never sure whether this was an artefact of the monitoring or the recordings (this happens to be a crucial range for violins). Did not hear that at all with headphones. This is now gone with the Neumanns.
- Pizzicatos sound considerably more direct and 'faster' now.
- Some of the mumbling in the mid bass range is gone too, I hope this is due to the better monitoring and not because the Neumanns are 'too pretty'. Time will tell.


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## rayinstirling (May 20, 2014)

Hannes is having a fun time with his new monitors but whoa...............

He'll get nothing done for a week while playing back every track done in the last year :lol:


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## Jack Weaver (May 20, 2014)

Hi Hannes,

Yeah, they're cartoonishly large for that room. You can't see the 23 bass traps in that room.
I believe I mentioned in that post that they were in a temporary room. 

Just a few minutes ago I started packing up my studio for the move to another location. I hope all the stuff gets 2,000 miles away intact. 

.


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## Hannes_F (May 20, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Tue May 20 said:


> Hannes is having a fun time with his new monitors but whoa...............
> 
> He'll get nothing done for a week while playing back every track done in the last year :lol:



You bet . I consider subscribing here too
http://digitalconcerthall.com



Jack Weaver said:


> You can't see the 23 bass traps in that room.



Photophotophotophoto . . .
or it did't happen 

Good luck for the move, Jack!


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## Arksun (May 27, 2014)

novicecomposer @ Wed May 14 said:


> People say speakers are a highly personal choice, so I guess I would drop by stores to listen to those recommended ones and pick a pair my ears like.
> 
> Thanks!
> H.



They really are, even amongst the very high end monitors, we all apreciate different translations of the message that is the audio and have different levels of comfort, which is why auditioning them yourself is absolutely essential. Ideally in your own studio if you can persuade the store to do that, otherwise its worth the trip there to listen.
If you haven't already, room acoustic treatment I would say is a must, the improvements in sound are dramatic to say the least. Doesn't have to be expensive either if you make DIY panels.

In regards to bass reflex being a compromise, every single aspect of the monitor could be considered a compromise, you have to think of the system in its entirety, and that includes the room itself that they're going to sit in. So its impossible to generalise that sealed is always better than ported, as that is simply not true at all. 

My PSI A21M are ported, yet reveal an astonishing amount of detail focus and seperation even in the low end, largely thanks to some extremely clever electronics in them.

When you audition monitors take both good and bad sounding mixes that you're familiar with. Everything from non-limited quality music to squashed clipped to death stuff. Get a feel for whether the monitor is being musical and possibly flattering, or just giving you the raw truth. 

As to whether a monitor that gives a raw dry analytical presentation, one that flatters more, or something in between will work best for your workflow and inspiration, only you can answer that one


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 27, 2014)

Jack "Three Monitors" Weaver


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## Hannes_F (May 27, 2014)

Jack "Three Badass Monitors" Weaver


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## Ozymandias (May 28, 2014)

Arksun @ Tue May 27 said:


> So its impossible to generalise that sealed is always better than ported, as that is simply not true at all.



I'm pretty sure Mike Senior hasn't made that claim. It seems to me that his issue is mainly with cheaper ported models, not 4-figure stuff.

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showt ... =5&o=&vc=1


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