# Master keyboard controllers 88 keys



## PasiP (May 5, 2010)

I'm upgrading my midi keyboard and this time I'm taking it up a notch. I'm searching for a good 88key controller. I don't need any soundbanks etc. I want the "true" piano feel too. Also some knobs and sliders would be good too for automating synths etc.

So far I've been looking at

M-AUDIO Keystation PRO 88
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_au/KeystationPro88.html (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_au/K ... Pro88.html)

Studiologic SL-990 PRO
http://www.studiologic.net/sl-990PRO.html

Any other recommendations?


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## Farkle (May 5, 2010)

I'm currently using the M-Audio Prokeys 88sx. It has decent 'half-piano' feel, I really have it so that I can take it to gigs (it's 20 lbs).


BUT... I've been drooling over the CME controllers. They have good weighted action, come with built in faders and DAW controls, and the prices are reasonable. Here are the two that I'm looking at (one's 600$, one's 1000$)

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/UF80/

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/VX80/

Both very solid (in quality, price, and weight!). 

Mike


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## stonzthro (May 5, 2010)

The studiologic boards are bland but solid.


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## PasiP (May 5, 2010)

Yeah I was interested of this model too:

http://www.studiologic.net/sl-990PRO.html


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## chimuelo (May 5, 2010)

MIDIMan was bought out by M Audio and that's why you have the best MIDI control of any Master Controller I have ever used, with the exception of the Oberheim MC3000. Which by the way you never see on ebay. Nobody who uses one would ever part with it.
I have used the KS88's live for years and according to the " experts " the action sucks. I find that anyone who has ever really played Piano recitals or concerts can easily overcome the elusive perfect action though. It doesn't exist in the virtual world, and this is because we use several different apps and instruments that weren't designed for those.
I am fortunate enough to be able to use Scope DSP and Bidules' SDK so I can create custom Programmable Velocity curves and MIDI devices, and since MIDI is what is really important IMHO, the imperfect action is not even considered.
With the KS88 there's an excellent forum where the moderator is a walking genius and knows every little detail in case the poorly written manual doesn't suffice.
Read about the Mute All Controllers, Global MIDI Channels, Snapshot and Program Matrix and you will see how customizable and powerful this cheap piece of crap really is.
The only flaw I have ever encountered is the way the keybed cannot be changed out. When a contact goes bad, it continues working but at a constant 127 velocity. After 2-3 years of 6 nights a week and daily practicing, you might get a bad contact.
No problem, turn it into a B3 or synth controller and buy another one for 360 USD.
I would also suggest the Doepfer Faders and a Kurzweil Expressionmate. That will provide you with every concievable controlling option other than a vectoring Joystick.
I have often considered sticking a Joystick up my ass and then rub against my powered Barbetta cabinets when Vectoring sounds is needed. But the above options have always sufficed so I won't go ruining my Stage clothes just yet.


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## dcoscina (May 5, 2010)

I just switched from a Yamaha KX8 to a StudioLogic VMK-188PLUS and it's great.  3 pedal inputs (1 sustain and 2 assignable), 8 sliders, 8 knobs, 8 buttons, and transport. The interface is as easy as a couple steps. 

I will say that the sliders are a little cheap feeling and that my M-Audio expression pedals don't go from 1-127 (more like 26-126). I believe a firmware update is available though so I might try that.


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## ThomasL (May 5, 2010)

Farkle @ 2010-05-05 said:


> BUT... I've been drooling over the CME controllers. They have good weighted action, come with built in faders and DAW controls, and the prices are reasonable. Here are the two that I'm looking at (one's 600$, one's 1000$)


I have the older UF-8 and it has been very good to me, not a single glitch in 2+ years. However, a LOT of users have been very frustrated with crashes and whatnot.

But I'd recommend CME based on my own experience...


/Thomas


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## PasiP (May 5, 2010)

Hmm.. Need to read some reviews of the CME UF8. Seems interesting..


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## Hans Adamson (May 5, 2010)

When working on Art Vista Virtual Grand Piano 2.0, I had the most commonly used keyboards in my studio for testing so I could calibrate keyboard specific presets for all brands of controllers. The M-audio keyboard had the poorest midi-velocity resolution by far. It also had a really odd midi output curve which was very steep, up to higher midi velocity values, where the curve flattened out. The result was poor control over dynamics, and poor compatibility with most sample libs. The Fatar controllers I tested were not perfect, but good. They had an even distrubution of midi velocity over most of the velocity range. The keyboard touch on the M-audio keyboard felt like most cheaper keybeds from China - a friction at the top of the key movement that made the feel more like pushing on/off buttons than balancing a weighted key. Since there are so widely different opinions, you should try before you by. >8o


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## PasiP (May 5, 2010)

Thanks for the comments Hans. I will definitely try before buy but I need to get some keyboard models first which I can try out..


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## chimuelo (May 5, 2010)

The stock velocity tables and controls are sad for the M Audio, I couldn't agree more.
I was refferring to the MIDI CC resolution and timing.
The way around the velocity and action can be achieved with a program for Native that I saw and cannot remember for the life of me the name.
But using custom made curves and devices I can take my sons Yamaha PSR childs keyboard and turn it into what I require.
Most guys just want the controller to be perfect off of the shelf.
Since they are all peices of junk in comparison to the old KX88 Yamaha and Oberheim MC3000, I just settle for one with great perfomance features and good MIDI CC resolution and then tweak the keybed to respond accordingly.
Below are the custom made devices I can use to help take crappy expression pedals and keybeds and make them do what I want.
I even have Piano tuning felt strips I stick in my controllers when the action is really pathetic.
The M Audio ES88 is an example.
It's great becasue it has no weight to it, and it is super thin for an 88r'.
But as it comes from the store it is the most pathetic Chinese crap I have ever seen. One must use note on/offs to change presets, etc...
But I had a gig where I needed 4 x 88 note controllers, so I bought 2 of those and rigged them to work just fine.
I also change the names on the back with Pro stickers as I am embarrassed to let stage managers and production folks to see what I use............. :roll:


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## midphase (May 5, 2010)

Stay away from M-Audio and stay away from CME.

You might need to look into keyboards with built-in sounds to find decent controllers. Most notably Kawai stage pianos.


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## midphase (May 5, 2010)

FYI, here's what I use. If I ever part with it, they will have to pry it from my cold dead hands:

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/msg/1724973025.html (http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/ms ... 73025.html)


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## PasiP (May 5, 2010)

So many choices so many opinions. It is hard to make a decision..hehe


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## Hans Adamson (May 5, 2010)

midphase @ Wed May 05 said:


> FYI, here's what I use. If I ever part with it, they will have to pry it from my cold dead hands:
> 
> http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/msg/1724973025.html (http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/ms ... 73025.html)


In my tests the Kurzweil Midiboard was the top scorer in midi velocity resolution and velocity range along with the Kawai MP9000. They had virtually identical response.


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## PasiP (May 5, 2010)

@Hans: Can you reveal what other keyboards were at the top of the list?


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## Mahlon (May 5, 2010)

For a 'thinner' (as in depth front to back, and I suppose also just the width of the keybed) what do you guys think of the Casio Privia PX330 http://www.casio.com/products/Musical_I ... os/PX-330/ combined with something like an Evolution UC33e for faders/buttons to sit on top?

Just for basic midi input and fairly decent piano feel? Any experience with the Casio?

Curious because the desk I built is bit space limited and I loath to build another desk!!

Thanks,
Mahlon


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## Hans Adamson (May 5, 2010)

PasiP @ Wed May 05 said:


> @Hans: Can you reveal what other keyboards were at the top of the list?


Well, I didn't create a list, but here are some results:
http://artvista.net/Virtual_Grand_Piano.html (Art Vista Virtual Grand Piano 2.0) includes custom presets for the following keyboards (as well as a variety of generic presets):

Kawai MP9000
Alesis QS8
CASIO CDP100
CME UF8 (two presets)
Fatar SL 990 PRO
Fatar SL 880
FATAR SL880 PRO
Korg Triton 88
Kurzweil MIDIBOARD
Kurzweil_PC88
Kurzweil SP88x
M Audio KS Pro 88
Peavey DPM C8p
Roland Fantom X8
Roland A90
Roland JV90
Yamaha P80
Yamaha S80

M-audio and CME were in a class by themselves at the bottom of the list. Kurzweil Midiboard and Kawai were in a class by themselves at the top - probably because they use impact sensors instead of velocity sensors. These sensors put out a much higher resolution in midi velocity. (As a simplified example: low resolution keyboard 1 can put out 10 different velocity values, for example: 4, 25, 35, 45, 55, 65, 78, 85, 95, 105. High resolution Keyboard 2 on the other hand, is capable of putting out 30 different velocity values: 1, 3, 7, 10, 14, 17, 19, 20, 25, 28, 35, 37, 39, 41, 45, 48, 50, 57, 60, 70, 75, 79, 80, 86, 89, 90, 93, 95, 100, 103.

I would stay away from Yamaha keyboards because they do not produce the upper velocities above 100 (max is 127). This means that in a piano sample you may think you are playing forte, or fortissimo when hitting the keys hard, but you are actually triggering the mf-layer. The Casio had identical response to the Yamaha. These keyboards have a nice "feel", but when used to put out velocity to sound units other than Yamaha, they have limited dynamic range. 

Many keyboards had similar problems as the Yamaha keyboards, and there is a grey middle area among the tested where no keyboard is really perfect. The Fatars were pretty good. The SL990 and the SL880 had about the same resolution, but the SL880 had more of the resolution at the top of the velocity spectrum, whereas the SL 990 had less resolution at the top and better resolution at the bottom of the velocity spectrum.

The Kurzweil PC88, and the Roland A90 (P4 action) was also among the better ones in the "grey area".


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## PasiP (May 5, 2010)

Thanks for the info Hans. Hunt for the good master keyboard continues. 8)


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## Polarity (May 5, 2010)

Oberheim MC2000 is a good choice (you get a piano feel without being too heavy or slow when using "not piano only" sounds.)
I have it.
It has also enough wheels and sliders for me for controllers of sounds
(using different performances patch I programmed one for synths, one for orchestras sounds, and so on). 

About Studiologic you are considering an old model...
the new MVK-188 plus could be a better choice (it's lighter also, talking about weight... the SL series are very heavy).
I've tried both...
the SL-880 and 990 are too much "heavy" hammer feel and slow (IMHO) to follow your hands, if you are one able to play Vangelis sequencer notes live with your own hands...
for me they were too fatiguing for my hands (I'm not used to real acoustic pianos)

A years ago when considering to change my Oberheim, I looked for the MVK-188 Plus: I tried it in a store... It gave an excellent feel.
I was tempted. 
In Italy it has a great price (practically half than the CME red ones).
But finally I stayed with my MC2000, to not loose the 4 independent MIDI outs 
and to NOT spend money.

I considered CME (excellent feel themselves too), but after I read about all the software/hardware problems on their official forum, I gave up.
Better stay with what I already own that works great. 

Hope it's useful.


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## PasiP (May 5, 2010)

Thanks Andrea I will check the VMK188 model out.


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## autopilot (May 5, 2010)

Have had a Fatar Studio 1100 for years but now find it too slow - plus I've finally pounded it into submission with clunky keys bottoming out. 

I have an Akai MKP88 on order. I'll let you know what I reckon.


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## P.T. (May 5, 2010)

I'm not sure I understand the problem with the m-audio controllers and midi velocity.

I have a KS 61 es (not hammer action).
Someone on another forum posted an app for testing velocity.
The KS 61 es put out every velocity value except 1 or 2.
I use a small app that lets me draw in whatever velocity response curve I want.

I find that using different curves with different VSTi or sample sets will yield better results than using one curve.

I also don't understand why people even want weighted hammer action, unless it is for a dedicated piano controller.

Non-weighted synth type action works better to me for most instruments.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 5, 2010)

My favorite controller (of all the ones I've tried) is the Kurzweil K250, which like the Midiboard has wooden keys. It has something like 250 internal steps of resolution (if you use its own built-in sequencer), and rather than how hard you hit, one piece of metal goes between two others; I'm not sure how it works.

And the problem with it is that it's fussy as hell. I have two broken ones in my garage, which I retired years ago after back-to-back $350 repairs.

So now I use the Kurzweil K2500, which is solid and very reliable, but not as exciting.

P.T., weighted keys feel better to me for most things, and I find it easier to control them without making mistakes. But before I got used to weighted keys I used to prefer synth action like you do.


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## stonzthro (May 5, 2010)

Well, I hate to sound like a downer, but I'd avoid both the VMK188 and the CME boards.

VMK-188 - software is atrocious; it would re-boot at will. We called Studiologic and they said that was common and sent us a new logic board which we plugged in and had the same problem. I have the 880SL with a bunch of different USB controllers and am quite happy.

A friend of mine ordered a CME and had worse problems than the VMK188. Unless they've addressed software issues, I'd avoid that one too.


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## Hans Adamson (May 5, 2010)

P.T. @ Wed May 05 said:


> I'm not sure I understand the problem with the m-audio controllers and midi velocity.
> 
> I have a KS 61 es (not hammer action).
> Someone on another forum posted an app for testing velocity.
> ...


Your observation is consistent with my experience. I tested and created a preset for Roland JV90 in VGP2. The Roland JV90 is a keyboard with spring synth action, and it had the same velocity range and resolution as the Kawai MP9000 and the Kurzweil Midiboard. Even my old Korg M1 with synth action has perfect velocity resolution/range. If you don't need a "piano"-style touch under your fingers, synth action keyboards appear not to suffer the problems of most weighted keyboard actions when it comes to velocity output.

Edit - But on the other hand, you don't have the weight under your fingers to control it as well.


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## midphase (May 5, 2010)

"I also don't understand why people even want weighted hammer action, unless it is for a dedicated piano controller. "

I know this sounds cheesy, but to me I feel like I write better music with a weighted controller. Like the melodic lines that came off my fingers have more "soul", it allows me to emotionally connect better to the music.

Weird huh?


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## NYC Composer (May 5, 2010)

I have the M-Audio Keystation 88. It was cheap, had a lot of knobs and buttons, and I thought it felt ok when I first bought it. I was wrong.

The action sucks. The velocity curves blow. It's huge, heavy and bulky. It has a massive total of 9(!) memory locations, otherwise, to get more, you need to use their librarian program.

I'm stuck with it because it works, but I cannot stress enough how much I truly detest it.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 5, 2010)

> But on the other hand, you don't have the weight under your fingers to control it as well



That's why I prefer weighted keyboards. I feel like I make fewer mistakes - although I still make plenty.


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## PasiP (May 5, 2010)

Seems that I need to spend about 1000€ to get a good master keyboard..hehe


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## midphase (May 5, 2010)

"I'm stuck with it because it works, but I cannot stress enough how much I truly detest it."

Craigslist it!


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## Dom (May 6, 2010)

Yamaha CP33. I had a Studiologic before and the CP33 was a huge step up. It feels really even as well, which the Studiologic definitely wasn't. It's a joy to play it. Very solidly built. Not many people seem to know about it. It's worth trying it out if you can. 

It's useful to have the built in piano sound (it's good but not brilliant) as well, something that's always available while your samples are loading, great to play as well with zero latency. 

It has mod and pitch wheels. I may get a Korg Nanokontrol (£49) to sit on top for extra faders.


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## NYC Composer (May 6, 2010)

midphase @ Thu May 06 said:


> "I'm stuck with it because it works, but I cannot stress enough how much I truly detest it."
> 
> Craigslist it!



Then I'd have to curse someone else with it. Not to mention it couldn't be shipped for less than a zillion dollars, give or take. Thing weighs about as much as your average elephant.


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## dcoscina (May 6, 2010)

Hmmm. I have a VMK-188Plus and I haven't encountered it re-setting itself at all. The pedal inputs don't go the full 1-127 range when transmitting expression or mod or velocity with the M-Audio expression pedals but that doesn't bother me much- I had NO pedal inputs on the KX8. I use the MIDI interface going into my PreSonus Firestudio Mobile so the timing is as tight as possible. I love the action and response of the VMK personally. Also, it's got a much lower profile than those Yammy boards which is more comfy for me to play on for hours. 

when I boot up Pianoteq 4 I feel like I'm playing on a real piano. It's great and the weighting is not so heavy that I cannot play quick passages on non-keyboard instruments. Win win for me.

but to each his own.


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## PasiP (Jul 11, 2010)

Still searching for a controller..hehe

I was thinking are there any 88key synth action keyboards? That would be ideal for me cause I like to do fast percussion lines and the synth action suits very well for that..


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