# How to work with Early Reflections to achieve depth???



## HirushanDM (Nov 6, 2014)

Hey guys!!  

I'm quite new to the forum and i hope to get to know you all. i figured that this would be the best place for me to learn from the best in the industry since i come from a bit of an isolated country with minimum facilities and exposure for these type of music. 

Anyway since i got that out the way...my 1st question as the topic implies..how do you use ER to simulate depth in an orchestral setting??Ive seen many composers out there achieving a great level of depth with great sounding Reverb(i mean digital not hardware reverbs) and yet have quite a bit of clarity in the whole mix. The string,woodwinds, brass and percussion sounds so clear and so realistic.

I would like to know how all this is done???maybe the topic is about asking how ER works, but i believe there is more to it in my question and would like to how you guys achieve this.

As an example composers like *Blakus* and *Blake Robinson* from youtube achieve this amazingly well. and that's the type of mix that i am looking for as well.


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## KEnK (Nov 6, 2014)

How to create depth with ERs and a reverb tail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoFItNTs8hQ

This is from the following VI thread:
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... sc&start=0

Also, Beat Koffman has some excellent posts about this subject.

k


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## HirushanDM (Nov 6, 2014)

Hey Thanks!!...

i did check on his video tutorial and i must say it was quite helpful.
But what i still don't understand how some folks say that having a higher amount of pre delay emulates the instrument being further away or rather distant from the listener.which is what i thought as well. but in Carl's tutorial he uses a higher value for strings which are in front of the stage.....This is very confusing. i am quite a beginner at this and i really want to achieve that level of quality.

Anyway thanks again and will do check on the other as well.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 6, 2014)

There are practical ways to use it, but the basic theory behind ERs is worth understanding.

Early reflections are the first seven paths to your ear: the direct sound from the instrument plus the bounces off the walls, ceiling, floor, front, and rear of the space. The timing and frequency characteristics of those reflections tell your brain about the space you're in.

After that you get lots of complicated bounces off the other surfaces, and they're all blended together into the reverb tail. They tell you less about the space, which is why they're treated separately (in fact there are reverbs such as VSL's that use "sampled" ERs with synthetic tails; the synthetic tail is easier to control).

It's also useful to know that sound travels at about a foot per millisecond. (That's close enough for audio work.) So if you want an instrument ten feet back...you get the idea.


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## muk (Nov 6, 2014)

HirushanDM @ Thu Nov 06 said:


> But what i still don't understand how some folks say that having a higher amount of pre delay emulates the instrument being further away or rather distant from the listener.



It's the other way around. If an instrument is far away from the listener it is close to the rear wall. The direct sound needs only a short time to travel to the rear wall and back - the direct signal and the ER (in this case the reflection from the rear wall) arrive at the listener position at almost the same time. If the instrument is close to the listener, then the direct sound needs a longer time to travel to the rear wall and back - there's a bigger delay between the direct signal and the the ER coming from the backwall.
Therefor: a bigger predelay simulates an instrument closer to the listener. A shorter predelay one that's further back in the room.


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## Mike Marino (Nov 6, 2014)

What a fascinating topic of conversation. Thanks for the insight!

- Mike


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## Dan Mott (Nov 6, 2014)

It's the dry libs that are hardest to get into a hall or something.

Like Blake says, if you have ambient libs then reverbs and ERs shouldn't be needed, otherwise reverberated mess occurs. Unless you are doing some sort of sound design, ect.

For dry sounds, I my self find that putting a reverb plugin on the track it's self and dailing up the wet knob/dailing down the dry knob works pretty good. Then after that you can play with the shape of the room, if the controls of your reverb allow that. The LX 480L for example has a SHAPE and SIZE knob and you can use them to emulate how big the space is inconjuction with how far away the sound is.


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## HirushanDM (Nov 7, 2014)

Wow wasn't expecting the actual Blake Robinson to reply to this post.... :shock: .....
your welcome by the way..  ...I'm a big fan of your work...really enjoyed the covers you did for Gears of War and Uncharted...amazing stuff!!Also thanks for sharing your thoughts as well....really appreciate it.

And thanks everyone else as well for sharing your tips as well....much appreciated.

*Muk* thanks for clearing that up for me because it's been very confusing and i always though that having a larger pre delay value would give the impression of the instrument being situated towards the back of the hall. I shall experiment with this and see.

Although it's still a mystery for me as to how an entire mix could have a decent level of volume and still feel like the entire Orchestra is further away from you and have that level of clarity.

As an example i suggest you guys check out Blakus new track on SoundCloud
https://soundcloud.com/blakus-mfm/warning-signal

this is exactly what i am looking at...and it's amazing.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Nov 11, 2014)

> ..Also, Beat Kaufmann has some excellent posts about this subject.



Hello, here I am
Have a look here... a lot of further information 
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27079&highlight=reverb

Beat


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## HirushanDM (Nov 22, 2014)

Hi Beat!! Thank you for your reply...sorry this is kinda late. I did check them out and pretty helpful stuff. I've been experimenting with some stuff lately based on the tips and information given by you all....and it has helped to certain extent and quite happy with the result. I guess it will take me some time to really find the missing ingredient....still need to learn how to use EQ to clear up the mix so that it does not sound too muddy but still get that clarity and warm lush feel to it.

Anyway thanks guys for all the help!!...


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