# How do you go about understandig loudness?



## Crowe (Sep 12, 2019)

So I've been struggling with the following:

I work on a pc, and windows has volume control. My mixer has volume control. My interface has volume control and my monitors have volume control. My DAW has a volume control. And I have no idea what loudness I should be aiming for on any of them. It makes figuring out how to mix things maddening and I don't even quite know where to start.

Is it important to learn how to judge loudness? I have no clue what 0db really sounds like. Or even what that really means in the real world as opposed to what I'm supposed to mix my music on. What should the volume on my pc be in regards to my interface and finally monitors? Where to I actually regulate from?

Do you have any advice?


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## dzilizzi (Sep 12, 2019)

I usually just mixed to slightly under 0db max. I don't worry about loudness per se because every one can control how loud they want to hear it if you mix to almost 0. It shouldn't be too soft or loud then.


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## rhizomusicosmos (Sep 12, 2019)

I don't have any clear idea of your setup but really there are only two points where you should worry about loudness:

The master bus of your DAW -- this defines the loudness you are rendering to disk or sending to your DAC. This is defined as relative to _below _0 dB FS (the theoretical dynamic limit of your DAC), therefore the loudness target will be a negative number, e.g. -16 dB FS.
Your monitors -- this defines how loud you are monitoring and therefore how you perceive the dynamics of your mix. This is measured in dB _above _0 dB SPL and is therefore a positive number, e.g. 83 dB SPL.
All the other points you mention are about gain staging. At those points it's all about optimising levels and avoiding distortion (i.e. maintaining headroom). This is more critical with analogue paths than digital ones since most DAWs have massive amounts of internal headroom before you reach the master bus.

Also, don't confuse loudness with peak level. Though they are interrelated, they are different concepts:
the peak level is the maximum instantaneous level of your audio signal; loudness is the subjective level and therefore is a type of average level.

There are standards for loudness if you are mixing for broadcast which are expressed in LUFS/LKFS loudness units (basically dB) and there are metering plugins designed to help with this. You can think of this as a more sophisticated version of the RMS meters that dominated the recording industry for decades, e.g. VU meters. Different broadcast and streaming services have different loudness targets: Spotify is -14 LUFS, Youtube is - 13 LUFS, Apple is -16 LUFS and TV is around -23 LUFS depending on the country.





TC Electronic | Loudness Explained







www.tcelectronic.com












Understanding the Basics of LUFS standards for mastering (Update 2019)


OK… this is going to be heady. I tell musicians this all the time. Mastering is not music. Mastering is …




www.subaqueousmusic.com





There are no loudness standards for CD or download formats. How loud a track is mixed or mastered appears to be a matter of genre aesthetics, c.f. the loudness wars. The main rule of thumb is to not let your peak levels exceed about -0.2 dB FS on the master bus of your DAW or mastering application.








4 Essential Mastering Levels Tips | Waves


Setting levels for compression and limiting is a vital part of the mastering process. How much is typical? How loud is too loud? Get valuable tips on how to maintain proper levels for effective mastering.




www.waves.com





On the subject of monitor loudness, audio engineer Bob Katz has written quite a bit and developed his own "K-System" which uses 83 dB SPL as a target. But how loud this sounds will be dependent on room size and distance from your audio monitors. You need a sound pressure level meter to ascertain this.








In-depth Bob Katz K-System Tutorial - Gearspace.com


Recommendation: Skip the K-system and use the playfully titled 'T-System (click me)' instead, which is much easier to set up and gives you a



www.gearslutz.com


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## chrisr (Sep 12, 2019)

Really great question!! I'm sure you'll get lots of informative feedback below. No doubt there are folk here who are better qualified than I to respond.

It's a big subject this thread might cover a lot of ground. Loudness is something that's hard to describe perfectly - so we measure it in lots of different ways in both the temporal and frequency realms - people talk about "windows" and "weighting" and things like that. We won't get into any of that here...

Let me start the ball rolling by differentiating between absolute and relative loudness, and mentioning the process of gain staging and unity gain.

In the real world we measure loudness in decibels of sound pressure level - as an absolute - it represents how loud something actually seems to us as humans. Google it and you'll find examples of representative phenomena for ranges of db measurements. Received wisdom is that 85dB SPL is the level at which one can listen for sustained periods without risking hearing damage, so some sound engineers (but not me for reasons that would need another thread) try to monitor at that level, in order that they can get used to determining what's loud and quiet by experience - they learn through repetition/experience what_ feels_ loud or quiet - to "regulate" in just the way you describe: if something is consistently very loud it'll be hanging around 85dB SPL in the studio - and in this world 0dB is the threshold of hearing - the quietest perceivable thing above silence. (This is 0dB SPL)

In the digital realm, we measure loudness relative to a theoretical "loudest digitally describable thing". We call this loudest describable thing "FULL SCALE" and the all other loudness/volume is described relative to it (below it). 0dB in this world is the loudest thing possible. This is 0dBFS (0 decibels below (relative to) FULL SCALE) and things are measured by how far _below_ they are. A "loud thing" here might peak at -12dBFS, a "quiet thing" at -40dbFS.

Analogue equipment has a 'sweet spot' at which it best reproduces an input signal, which corresponds to a place where it's not making the incoming signal any louder or quieter - this is called "unity gain" or gain at a ratio of 1:1.

When we move between these worlds (digital/analogue) we try to find a point at which all of the analogue parts are operating at their most efficient (unity gain) but still won't distort when the signal is at it's absolute loudest (0dBFS). This requires 'headroom'.

Typically we set up analogue equipment so that a constant signal (sine wave) of something in the order of -18/-20/-24 dBFS goes to "0" (ZERO) on your mixing desk (this may be 0VU - which may equate to +4dBu) - basically, whatever your desk there will be a point on the meter which looks like an "optimal" point - it may have a zero - or it may be the highest green LED etc. Everything above this constitutes 'headroom'.

So - now to set up your system : make a signal generator in your daw output a sine wave @ -18dBFS. Have all/any faders in your DAW at 0 (zero/unity) so that the signal going to your interface is at -18dBFS.

In the interface software, also have any faders at zero. (For now, have the windows volume at 100/ Full)

If there's a volume control on the interface hardware, have it at zero if that's marked - or at full volume if not.

On your mixing desk set all trim/faders to zero (unity - _not_ zero as in turned down) - your channel faders and the main fader etc... - all at "unity", which will be marked in some way.

If everything is set correctly, your mixer meter should be sat at 0VU or the top green LED. If it's reading above this level then turn down the interface volume control (hardware) until it hits.

Finally, adjust your monitor volume control until the sine wave signal is at a comfortable level to listen to.

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Now, when you're writing music, you need something to quickly judge the volume of your music against when you're working. I find that the metronome is perfect for that.

Again, play your sine wave signal, and also play the metronome against it. Set the volume of the metronome so that it's a little louder (but fighting with) the sine wave.

No when your music is averaging a "good" level during writing - it will be fighting with the metronome. Loud music will make the metronome really difficult to hear and quiet music will be dominated by it. You will be writing music _relative _to this guide audio.

You'll find your music _doesn't_ come out peaking near 0dBFS if you work like this. That's as it should be. If you want to release something commercially (like a cd - not to be too antiquated) then you'll master the audio to hit those levels. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the windows stuff - it really depends upon how your OS is set- up. But now if you play something outside your DAW, just adjust the level of that (from the loudspeaker icon) to a comfortable place. Stuff outside your DAW is not important in that respect, and audio in the consumer world is typically loud, so expect to have windows audio turned low.


best,
Chris


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## Rctec (Sep 12, 2019)

I ALWAYS have my monitors set to 85 db. You can - for $25 - get a RadioShack meter...

But here is a more in depth analysis.









Sound levels in cinema - Simple DCP


Theatrical audio mixes differ from broadcast, disc, and online audio mixes in a number of ways. When delivering your files for DCP creation, it’s important to know what kind of a mix you have and how that will affect its perception in a theatrical environment. If you were to ask most people to...




simpledcp.com


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## dzilizzi (Sep 12, 2019)

Turns out there are free apps for this. I'm going to set my monitors also. Thanks!


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## rhizomusicosmos (Sep 12, 2019)

Rctec said:


> I ALWAYS have my monitors set to 85 db. You can - for $25 - get a RadioShack meter...
> 
> But here is a more in depth analysis.
> 
> ...



Wow, -31 LUFS . . . that's dynamic! I suppose we should expect that when we have a controlled acoustic space such as a cinema as the target.


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## JohnG (Sep 12, 2019)

Rctec said:


> I ALWAYS have my monitors set to 85 db. You can - for $25 - get a RadioShack meter...



I also use a Radio Shack VU meter and use 88 dB as my listening level. At that volume (or 85 or whatever), if it _sounds_ loud, it _is_ loud. 

I have one friend, a fairly renowned mastering / mixing / svengali, who sets his listening at a much, much softer dynamic -- less than 70 dB. 

There is no one way to do it but it's good to be consistent so you can use your ears.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Sep 12, 2019)

Shiirai said:


> So I've been struggling with the following:
> 
> I work on a pc, and windows has volume control. My mixer has volume control. My interface has volume control and my monitors have volume control. My DAW has a volume control. And I have no idea what loudness I should be aiming for on any of them. It makes figuring out how to mix things maddening and I don't even quite know where to start.
> 
> ...



You might find it useful to learn a little more about mastering. Calibration is essential for working in professional broadcast/film environments, but worrying about that stuff too much as a hobbyist might lead to mixes that don't translate for comfortable playback on phones, laptops, car speakers, etc. I was just looking at this article for my own purposes which explains how to target your mix levels for common streaming/playback platforms:









Mastering Audio for Soundcloud, iTunes, Spotify, Amazon Music and Youtube


🤔 What do I need to know when mastering for Spotify? 🤔 What's the best volume level for music on YouTube? 🤔 Why does my track sound different when I upload it to Soundcloud? 🤔 How loud should I master my track for iTunes? If you don’t know the answer to these questions your music might be...




www.masteringthemix.com





P.S What's RadioShack?


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## Alex Niedt (Sep 12, 2019)

JohnG said:


> I have one friend, a fairly renowned mastering / mixing / svengali, who sets his listening at a much, much softer dynamic -- less than 70 dB.


A lot of big mix engineers in the pop world work at whisper-quiet levels. I love working this way at least part of the time. It's like zooming out and looking from afar. If something sounds huge and alive and you can hear the details at low level, it will sound massive when turned up. Can't fool yourself with level into thinking a wimpy mix sounds good.


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## chrisr (Sep 12, 2019)

Rctec said:


> I ALWAYS have my monitors set to 85 db.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think - and I'll tread quite carefully here given our respective track records Hans(!) - that it's useful to be able to work to a calibrated level, but that level can be quite flattering to the music for many monitor/room set-ups.

I think that listening at lower volume can highlight balance issues in a similar way to listening on boom boxes etc.. can, and also that working in a de-focussed (lower volume) environment for periods helps us to actually focus our listening when we then _do_ need to focus on the balance (at 85dB if desired). I think it's good to step back from the canvas, so to speak.

Oh and a belated happy birthday!


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## JohnG (Sep 12, 2019)

Alex Niedt said:


> A lot of big mix engineers in the pop world work at whisper-quiet levels. I love working this way at least part of the time. It's like zooming out and looking from afar. If something sounds huge and alive and you can hear the details at low level, it will sound massive when turned up. Can't fool yourself with level into thinking a wimpy mix sounds good.



My engineer pretty much does this ^^

But I am addicted to loud drums, loud -- everything.


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## rhizomusicosmos (Sep 12, 2019)

@chrisr -- your point about using a reference tone to set levels is a great fundamental piece of advice. It's something that is easily done and should be conducted before any audio recording or mixing session, especially with more complex routing setups.

Understanding gain staging and metering inside and outside the DAW is really a fundamental skill that anyone working with audio should get a handle on. This includes what different meters are telling you: RMS, peak, loudness, SPL, weighted, phase, etc.

Monitoring levels are much more subjective. Unless you _have _to produce media with levels consistent with specific industry standards, choose what is comfortable for you and your room. 

A sound pressure meter is still a good investment as it can alert you to unhealthy loudness habits!


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## X-Bassist (Sep 12, 2019)

JohnG said:


> I also use a Radio Shack VU meter and use 88 dB as my listening level. At that volume (or 85 or whatever), if it _sounds_ loud, it _is_ loud.
> 
> I have one friend, a fairly renowned mastering / mixing / svengali, who sets his listening at a much, much softer dynamic -- less than 70 dB.
> 
> There is no one way to do it but it's good to be consistent so you can use your ears.


I’m at 85db myself, but at lower listening levels you can better hear what’s sticking out too much in a mix. You’re speakers and room do subtle compression at higher levels (even 85 dB) and cause you to miss it in the mix, especially in smaller mix rooms.

So when I’m done I listen back through at a lower level (maybe 70 or 75dB) - I’ve had a few oops moments (something clearly too loud in the mix), but fixed them in a snap.


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## Rctec (Sep 12, 2019)

chrisr said:


> I think - and I'll tread quite carefully here given our respective track records Hans(!) - that it's useful to be able to work to a calibrated level, but that level can be quite flattering to the music for many monitor/room set-ups.
> 
> I think that listening at lower volume can highlight balance issues in a similar way to listening on boom boxes etc.. can, and also that working in a de-focussed (lower volume) environment for periods helps us to actually focus our listening when we then _do_ need to focus on the balance (at 85dB if desired). I think it's good to step back from the canvas, so to speak.
> 
> Oh and a belated happy birthday!


Very true... and I was in a hurry to get to my own birthday party when I wrote this. The truth is that I try to work at a consistent level on a piece, so I have a true concept of the dynamic arch of the piece, but very often turn my mix down to 70 dB so I hit my tracks harder. But I find it essential to return to the 85 dB standard towards the end of the process. And honestly, I’ve never had a mix sent back from the dub stage. ...But than, we do rediculous wide Splits for the dubbing engineer, which helps everybody.
I know Chris Nolan and i have gotten flack for mixing the music too loud in Chris’ films, but we always took the approach to mix for the best sounding and lined-up theatre (and we check our mixes in the real world of a normal cinema every week during the dub), than approaching the mix for a worst-case cinema... but that’s just our philosophy.


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## Henu (Sep 13, 2019)

Alex Niedt said:


> A lot of big mix engineers in the pop world work at whisper-quiet levels.



I'm not a big (only fat) name and don't operate on pop world, but I also mix at speech levels. I do a lot of metal and especially with that I don't want to crank it loud due to the fact that it tires my ears almost instantly and I start to be too careful with 2-3k area. That being said, sometimes I end up with too much of that due to the fact that I'm listening too quiet, so there's definitely a risk in that well.

Concerning mastering levels on the basis on "what sounds good": many limiters have a gain compensation option available where you can set the output to diminish the same amount you're boosting the input/ limiting. I always limit by ears first to find the sweet spot and then continue with looking also the meters.


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## Rctec (Sep 13, 2019)

Jeremy Gillam said:


> You might find it useful to learn a little more about mastering. Calibration is essential for working in professional broadcast/film environments, but worrying about that stuff too much as a hobbyist lead to mixes that don't translate into comfortable playback on phones, laptops, car speakers, etc. I was just looking at this article for my own purposes which explains how to target your mix levels for common streaming/playback platforms:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


RadioShack?


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## Jeremy Gillam (Sep 14, 2019)

Rctec said:


> RadioShack?


A very Wodehouse-ian summary, thank you.


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## jcrosby (Sep 14, 2019)

Shiirai said:


> I have no clue what 0db really sounds like. Or even what that really means in the real world as opposed to what I'm supposed to mix my music on.



0dB doesn't _sound_ like anything. What you're describing is symbolic language for digital full scale; (which again has no sound. It simply means maximum digital loudness at the threshold of digital distortion.)

You can test this when comparing various mastered tracks that 'appear' to sound louder than one another; yet all peak somewhere near 0dB Full Scale. 0 dBFS is simply a technical way to define the digital ceiling of 0 dBFS.

What it does sound like you are trying to describe, (but perhaps are understandably confused about), is how to achieve a consistent monitoring level... In which case you want to think of dB measured in SPL. And, how you might set up an environment where you consistently listen at the same level despite inconsistency.

This explains it relatively well, (in addition to describing some of the inconsistencies that happen when you start to mix and match multiple platforms with different loudness protocols....) At 8:30 Jon explains listening levels in a pretty straight forward and easy to understand way...


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## Crowe (Sep 14, 2019)

Lots of great advice and insights, thank you all. It's indeed become clear to me that I got confused by terminology and the different types of volume/loudness and how they relate to perception.

I've started off by getting a loudness meter and will be taking into account all of your advice. Thank you again ^^.


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## J-M (Sep 14, 2019)

I have a pretty small room with terrible bass buildup (as you'd except from a square room with concrete walls). 85db is far too loud here, so I settled for a lower value...as long as the mixing volume is somewhat consistent it's all good I guess.


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## j_kranz (Sep 14, 2019)

Izotope Insight is great for metering and determining lufs etc. before your monitoring setup even gets involved. It also helps to communicate to your clients as to what they want headroom-wise. For instance some libraries I work with like things brickwalled, others like to master the material themselves, so it helps to know where the music is going while mixing.


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## vitocorleone123 (Sep 14, 2019)

For mixing/mastering, LUFS seems the way to go (the specific target up to you). For monitoring, and it's different for everyone, I prefer what I've read/learned from... people I've read about.

General mix level: soft
Zoom in: check it loud, especially drums and bass
Zoom out: whisper level, check what's distinguishable or annoying

Work at a generally soft level, but DO turn it up at times and DO turn it down. Just like you should check your mix in mono... or even try mixing in mono before switching to stereo, to see if that works for you.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 14, 2019)

(I haven't read every post in detail, so apologies if this is redundant.)

1. You can train yourself to identify frequency bands, but you can't train yourself to hear dB levels (because what sounds quiet at first sounds normal after a few minutes). That's the reason to calibrate your monitors: for a constant reference.

It's normal to raise or lower the level as a different reference, but you want to be able to return to your calibrated level. I'm endowed with a monitor controller that has a button to return to it, and it's very useful.

2. A lot of people have mentioned 85dB, which is what I use too, but I didn't see anyone specify *what* is at 85dB! The answer is A-weighted pink noise.

3. I too have the famous Radio Shack dB meter, but these days you can use an iPhone app. They're not accurate at lower levels - actually the Radio Shack meter isn't either - but they're plenty accurate for calibrating your monitors, since a couple of dB on either side of 85 doesn't matter.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 14, 2019)

^Edit: And what sounds loud at first sounds normal after a few minutes.

That should go without saying, but at least for me it's more that loud becomes normal - you become desensitized to the higher volume.


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## chillbot (Sep 14, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> ^Edit: And what sounds loud at first sounds normal after a few minutes.


I can't understate how many times I have to go to the gym for a couple hours just to "reset" my ears. And I have terrible ears for this stuff. But after hearing it for a while I just know I have no chance without a break. And also it's funny how often I come back to it after the break and find that it actually sounds pretty good! I just couldn't hear it, my ears become numb to everything.


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## S.M Hassani (Sep 14, 2019)

Good thread on this often complex and confusing topic. Lots of good information here. Nick made a key point about the A-weighted pink noise as reference. When you get your Noise Meter App make sure it is set to that. Some of them don't have that setting.

I use two iOS Apps:


Niosh SLM (Free and fully featured)
dB Meter (Free and Paid Pro versions)
I looked into this extensively to make sure our synth patches are built to an optimal loudness level. We calibrate them around -14dB LUFS or 0dB on the K-14 meter.

Another emerging branch to this topic is the issue of loudness and audio quality on social media platforms like Instagram and Facebook. As a content creator who focuses on sound and music, I believe those platforms should hire some real audio professionals to manage that aspect of their services.

If anybody is interested: We found that audio on Instagram Videos will clip at anything higher than -3.2dB. (Ceiling on your Master Limiter)


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## mixtur (Sep 15, 2019)

rhizomusicosmos said:


> all about optimising levels and avoiding distortion (i.e. maintaining headroom). This is more critical with analogue paths than digital ones since most DAWs have massive amounts of internal headroom before you reach the master bus.
> 
> Also, don't confuse loudness with peak level. Though they are interrelated, they are different concepts:
> the peak level is the maximum instantaneous level of your audio signal; loudness is the subjective level and therefore is a type of average level.



This is definitely true with DAW:s now using high internal resolution (64-bit etc). It won’t even clip on f you go above 0 on channels. However, some plugins are very sensitive to the input level. Amp simulators comes to mind, but basically most plugins that doesn’t have an input gain control.


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## X-Bassist (Sep 15, 2019)

Rctec said:


> RadioShack?


Seriously, I bought a pack of batteries and they wanted my address and number. I was so glad when they finally got a system and I didn't have to go through that every... single... time.

Ahh, memories of the by gone era of Blockbuster and Radioshack, they both came and went far too quickly. Thanks


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## Daniel James (Sep 15, 2019)

If my wife tells me to turn it down, my mix is too loud!

-DJ


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## S.M Hassani (Sep 16, 2019)

Rctec said:


> RadioShack?



If all else fails, there's always these guys:


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## Loïc D (Sep 16, 2019)

My definition of loudness ?

It's when I turn up the master volume on my Ampeg because those [email protected]$$ guitarists turn up their master volume too.

More seriously : I set my monitors at 82dB (a-weighted white noise) maximum.

More more seriously : like @Daniel James, I've got my wife as a room limiter. Very advanced : it triggers a "soooo noisy" alert when I exceed volume and there's also a day time / night time threshold setting, and also a "sooo louuusy" option when I write awful music.


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## oks2024 (Sep 16, 2019)

I really liked this video: 

And I use Youlean Loudness Meter. I was using the free version, but bought the Pro version recently. Mostly because it's a single guy working on this plugin, the Pro version is nice, but the free version has most of the features you need.


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## BassClef (Sep 16, 2019)

jcrosby said:


> 0dB doesn't _sound_ like anything. What you're describing is symbolic language for digital full scale; (which again has no sound. It simply means maximum digital loudness at the threshold of digital distortion.)
> 
> You can test this when comparing various mastered tracks that 'appear' to sound louder than one another; yet all peak somewhere near 0dB Full Scale. 0 dBFS is simply a technical way to define the digital ceiling of 0 dBFS.
> 
> ...




Great video but... I have both iPhone apps and a hardware dB meter. I've seen/read many "mixers/master" discuss setting "and always using" a constant playback output level to your monitors. The recommended levels I've encountered vary from a low of 70 to a high of 85 dB. What has not been a consistent recommendation in my research is the dB weighting scale used, as I've heard recommendations for dB-A, dB-C and dB-Z. In this video while the meter on his phone showed dB-A, he only said "dBSPL". How important is the choice of dB scale?


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## Kent (Sep 16, 2019)

I've found this to be helpful: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/1024968-k-system-try-t-system.html


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## rhizomusicosmos (Sep 16, 2019)

BassClef said:


> Great video but... I have both iPhone apps and a hardware dB meter. I've seen/read many "mixers/master" discuss setting "and always using" a constant playback output level to your monitors. The recommended levels I've encountered vary from a low of 70 to a high of 85 dB. What has not been a consistent recommendation in my research is the dB weighting scale used, as I've heard recommendations for dB-A, dB-C and dB-Z. In this video while the meter on his phone showed dB-A, he only said "dBSPL". How important is the choice of dB scale?


The A, C, Z, etc. weighting suffixes are filters that are applied to the audio measurement to reflect how a typical human listener would perceive the loudness of a tone or noise at defined levels. They are all measured in dB SPL.

A-weighting is a standard based on research that dates back to the 1930s. Fletcher and Munson showed that human hearing has a non-linear response throughout the audible frequency spectrum. We are more sensitive to some frequencies than others and this sensitivity is also dependent on the level of the sound. 








Equal-loudness contour - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org












A-weighting - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





A-weighting is the most common and is considered the default in North America. C-weighting includes more bass in the measurement but is much less common today (I think it had a specific purpose for measuring loud peaks). Z-weighting is flat, i.e. no filter.

In Europe and other related countries A-weighting is becoming superseded by ITU-R 468.








ITU-R 468 noise weighting - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





In short, if your SPL meter only has A, C or Z settings then use A.


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