# Is Hans Zimmer overrated as a composer?



## PeterN

Went through an hour long compilation of Zimmers compositions and, yes, while there are some interesting and creative compositions (e.g. “now we are free”), plenty (I find) is simple chord progressions with excellent sound design.

Not trying to poke on Zimmer here, and with all respect, but what is the opinion in the community? 

I know Verta has criticism on the unrealistic compositions, from an orchestral perspective, but thats not the issue here really, could it be that Zimmer just does quite simple chord progressions sound amazingly good in the commercial field?

Is this question allowed to ask, or am I going too close to something holy here?


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## Dear Villain

It depends on your musical background, taste, and what you value in terms of aesthetics, complexity, innovation, etc. For me, with lifelong exposure to classical music, I would call his music "easily digestible" like pop music...nice to listen to but lacking in the kind of depth that would let me listen repeatedly to discover new things. As to being overrated, those you've heard of will always be overrated relative to the greatness of their actual music...think of how many composers have written catalogues of great orchestral and chamber music that you've never heard of. Being famous doesn't legitimize your work as being vastly superior to the work of obscure composers. It speaks more to marketing, opportunity, luck, and offering music that suits the current tastes/trends. Long term, I don't think Zimmer will be remembered like Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven. 

Just my take,
Dave


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## studiostuff




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## Garry

Couldn't disagree more (yes, this is close to holy!!). 

Too many great scores to name, but to me, the best illustration of his genius is 'Time'. This is a stupefyingly simple tune. It's so simple, I can teach my kids to play it. It's so simple, even I could have written it; any one of us could have. The point is, none of us did - such simple notes, such simple contrasts, lying there waiting to be discovered, and none of us, working away at writing melodies, came close. That, for me, is pure genius. To take something, so simple, and create something so moving, that I could listen to over and over again, and it still give me shivers, is just pure genius. If that's overrated, I just wish I could have a fraction of it, and I'd be happily over rated.

I went to watch the Zimmer tribute orchestra this year - I doubt there was a single person in that audience who would answer 'yes' to your question.

Watch, listen and recant your blasphemy, thou sinner  Praise be to the Zimmer.


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## Michael Stibor

He's not overrated. Hans is not a traditional composer in the John Williams sense of the word.He _can_ do that stuff, but his bread and butter is more in making soundscapes. It's almost like he's a sound designer with notes.
And the little Zimmer wannabes all try and draw from the same thing, the "epic' sound, with the low string ostinatos, etc. But he's more than that. Maybe he's not Herrmann or Williams, but nobody could have written a more appropriate score for POTC, or Inception, or many others. I'm not saying he's my favorite composer (though he's up there) but he's definitely not overrated.


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## sourcefor

He is a genius when it comes to making music for the scene. Just knows what and what not to do ...always innovating and coming up with new ideas! He is one of the main reasons I got into composing for TV/Film, among others! While not so complex like John Williams, the music just works and I will always respect him as a music producer/composer/etc! I respect anyone who can create an emotion from a piece of music, complex or not!!!


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## funnybear

The genius of Zimmer is his ability to add an absolutely quintessential part to the storytelling of a movie.

You can't listen to his work without watching the movie (you can but you will only get 10%).

His work with Nolan is simply stunning. Interstellar is a masterclass in how a composer and director can synergistically create something bigger than its parts.


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## J-M

One can always ask. But in my humble opinion, no, he is not.


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## CT

Dear Villain said:


> It depends on your musical background, taste, and what you value in terms of aesthetics, complexity, innovation, etc. For me, with lifelong exposure to classical music, I would call his music "easily digestible" like pop music...nice to listen to but lacking in the kind of depth that would let me listen repeatedly to discover new things.



Taste and aesthetics are one thing, but I can't agree that musical background should have any bearing on what you can appreciate. 

My roots are "classical" too, and I think the enthusiasm for Hans is entirely deserved.


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## Vik

PeterN said:


> Is this question allowed to ask, or am I going too close to something holy here?


I'm sure this question is allowed, but I'm not sure that topic is worth spending time on.  If you eg. like his To Every Captive Soul a lot, like the mood and simplicity of Time, some of his collaborations with Lisa Gerrard (Now We are Free) - why worry if there are other pieces you don't like or if they are overrated?


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## Lionel Schmitt

What's "overrated"?
People like what they like. Who has the authority to tell someone or a mass that they are "overrating" something if it's just their own preference?

One can discuss about musicality and orchestral sophistication, but to say people are "overrating" (and "underrating" for that matter) something or someone is to consider ones own taste superior to the taste of others.
So, I'd never use the word "under" or "overrated" - unless something can be empirically demonstrated to be lacking, despite popular appreciation.
For example: Let's say science would find that staying warm actually doesn't help much healing the cold... then we could objectively say "people are overrating staying warm and not going out when you have the cold".
But regarding the arts (be it music, movies, paintings, books etc) this just won't work that smoothly.


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## PeterN

DarkestShadow said:


> What's "overrated"?
> People like what they like. Who has the authority to tell someone or a mass that they are "overrating" something if it's just their own preference?
> 
> One can discuss about musicality and orchestral sophistication, but to say people are "overrating" (and "underrating" for that matter) something or someone is to consider ones own taste superior to the taste of others.
> So, I'd never use the word "under" or "overrated" - unless something can be empirically demonstrated to be lacking, despite popular appreciation.
> For example: Let's say science would find that staying warm actually doesn't help much healing the cold... then we could objectively say "people are overrating this".
> But regarding the arts (be it music, films, paintings, books etc) this just won't work that smoothly.



Yea, you make a point. I didnt like that word either, but couldnt come up with a better wording. Also meant to add some spice - and raise attraction - like a catchy modern news headline.


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## Lionel Schmitt

PeterN said:


> Yea, you make a point. I didnt like that word either, but couldnt come up with a better wording. Also meant to add some spice.


Well, you could've just asked - what do you think about Hans Zimmer's music?
Even though I'm not sure there's much worth to discussing this. I can pretty much tell you what the responses will be.
A lot of people will say - he is great. Some people don't find him so interesting and a few will say his music is bland and not musically interesting.
But you'll have a lot of bias because Hans is around on the forum. I'm sure there are a lot of people who hold back here and would give him shit in other forums, or in private conversations.


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## PeterN

DarkestShadow said:


> Well, you could've just asked - what do you think about Hans Zimmer's music?
> Even though I'm not sure there's much worth to discussing this. I can pretty much tell you what the responses will be.
> A lot of people will say - he is great. Some people don't find him so interesting and a few will say his music is bland and not musically interesting.
> But you'll have a lot of bias because Hans is around on the forum. I'm sure there are a lot of people who hold back here and would give him shit in other forums, or in private.



Yea, well, sort of genuinely curious about anwers. No intention to deny peoples opinions who can explain why they would disagree (to the catchy headline). I think we got some good feedback already.


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## rottoy

I think even Hans would agree that he's a bit overrated, in regards to the extreme oversaturation that comes with the entire film industry eating out of your hand at any given moment.
However, therein lies the very reason he's far from overrated as a craftsman.
Hans is reliable, has an immense talent for churning out catchy compositions that linger in popular culture, not to mention giving up-and-coming composers a chance to elbow their way into the industry by working under/alongside him at Remote Control Productions.
_
TL;DR Hans is prolific to the point of oversaturation, but he's not overrated as an artist._


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## MA-Simon

I think he is perfectly fine.


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## Parsifal666

HZ is good enough to have had a HUGE influence on many top film composers today. That's saying _quite_ a lot, and I'd say that in any forum. He's good enough to be in super high demand in some of the biggest pictures of the past few decades. Pretty damn good, I'd say.

Hans isn't my favorite composer (I'm almost completely old school-oriented: Rozsa, Goldsmith, Herrmann), however I adore his scores to Man of Steel, Interstellar, and a few others.


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## zvenx

I was initially going to just put a popcorn emoji and leave it like that.
But decided to comment.
There are three things about Hans's work which I love.
1. They always work for the scene... always..
2. His theme are more memorable than most other film composers I listen to (note I said most not all).
3. His music is almost always 'accessible' especially to a wider audience who quite frankly aren't musicians.

rsp


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## Parsifal666

I guess I have to be the one to ask this: what's wrong with simple chord progressions? Some of the best music written wasn't built on anything much more complicated than that. I don't use them unless I'm getting paid, however that in itself also says something positive...Sancta Simplicitas!


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## Dear Villain

miket said:


> Taste and aesthetics are one thing, but I can't agree that musical background should have any bearing on what you can appreciate.
> 
> My roots are "classical" too, and I think the enthusiasm for Hans is entirely deserved.



Not suggesting one can't like a genre or style because of a predominantly classical background. Rather, I'm saying that the preponderance of your lifelong musical influences will naturally steer you towards music you are familiar with and have a deep appreciation for. Also, the more you know about the technical aspects of something, the more you look at things through a more critical lens. A mechanic sees under the hood and not just the sculpted lines of that shiny red sports car that may influence many people simply by it's aesthetics. So, if someone's familiar with well-developed symphonies, or contrapuntally rich baroque music, etc. etc. they may find Zimmer doesn't speak to them with the same intensity. Doesn't mean they still can't enjoy his music and even admire aspects of it.


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## Nao Gam




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## jbuhler

Parsifal666 said:


> I guess I have to be the one to ask this: what's wrong with simple chord progressions? Some of the best music written wasn't built on anything much more complicated than that. I don't use them unless I'm getting paid, however that in itself also says something positive...Sancta Simplicitas!


I'm just kidding with you, so don't take this the wrong way but I found it quite humorous that you only use simple chord progressions if you are getting paid. Made me think you could offer a chromatic mediant or sharp 11 discount or something!


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## PeterN

Parsifal666 said:


> I guess I have to be the one to ask this: what's wrong with simple chord progressions?



Beatles did those (she loves you yea yea yea) before something ‘divine’ manifested around 1965 or so and further from that year. Nothing wrong with simple chord progressions, but you can dig deeper than that with a touch of the divine and creativity. 

Personally not a fan of simple chord progressions, let me admit that so my stance is clear.


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## Parsifal666

jbuhler said:


> I'm just kidding with you, so don't take this the wrong way but I found it quite humorous that you only use simple chord progressions if you are getting paid. Made me think you could offer a chromatic mediant or sharp 11 discount or something!



lol! It's true though, I noticed a couple of years ago that I never write three and four chord-based compositions on my own. I think being in Rock early on really burned me out on that style of writing.

But hey, that doesn't mean there isn't anything musically significant that's built on the old I-IV-V, in fact it would be a terrible mistake for anyone to think that.

I just express myself in my own music that way, it's just the way things come out.


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## Parsifal666

PeterN said:


> Beatles did those (she loves you yea yea yea) before something ‘divine’ manifested around 1965 or so and further from that year. Nothing wrong with simple chord progressions, but you can dig deeper than that with a touch of the divine and creativity.
> 
> Personally not a fan of simple chord progressions, let me admit that so my stance is clear.



The Beatles were great, two of the best composers since Richard Strauss. They might be Rock's greatest pioneers. 

I hope you don't eschew simple progressions all the time...they can often help you out of a compositional rut.


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## Architekton

Hans Zimmer is one of the best for sure, I have all the respect for him. He has his own style and he is best at it. Keep on going mr Zimmer!!!


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## Jaap

When I was graduating on my masters on the conservatory I wrote a music theatre production about the Divine Comedy. I studied with Louis Andriessen, had a masterclass with Stockhausen and studied all the great works from for many years going from obscure medieval works till Brian Ferneyhough, but I had funny enough the "oh damn, this is good" feeling when I watched the movie Hannibal. The Divine Comedy is present in that movie and was curious about how such a work would be in a movie. At that time the name Hans Zimmer did not ring a bell like it does today for me, but when I saw the movie and heard how the movie worked in conjunction with the music I really had the feeling, this is how you effectively connect a story with image, sound and music.

When I later bought the soundtrack on cd I was amazed about how "relative" simple it was (compared to modern classical music anyway), but it opened my eyes that in a nice way that if you want to tell a story via music, you don't always need all this fuzz or that at some points, you need to "overdo" it. I learned to listen what the story for my project needed and very often that resulted in a much "simpeler" version that I wrote before. In other parts I went much more over the top to enhance the story etc. This is all what I learned from listening to Hans his Hannibal score and this score remains till today my favorite from him.

I think one should not underestimate how hard it is to find the perfect balance between story, image and sound and in that Hans is in my opinion the most effective audio producer out there.


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## Mornats

I find him quite inspirational so I rate him very highly. Supermarine in particular was superb in my opinion. It perfectly drove the scene in Dunkirk.


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## ism

Isn't the point that when the Beatles do a I-IV-V there's probably - all things being equal - something else going on that is probably transcendently brilliant, and sometimes in a dimension you've never imaged existed in music.

(Particularly if you're 14 and hearing it for the first time).


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## ludini

DarkestShadow said:


> What's "overrated"?
> People like what they like. Who has the authority to tell someone or a mass that they are "overrating" something if it's just their own preference?
> 
> One can discuss about musicality and orchestral sophistication, but to say people are "overrating" (and "underrating" for that matter) something or someone is to consider ones own taste superior to the taste of others.
> So, I'd never use the word "under" or "overrated" - unless something can be empirically demonstrated to be lacking, despite popular appreciation.
> For example: Let's say science would find that staying warm actually doesn't help much healing the cold... then we could objectively say "people are overrating staying warm and not going out when you have the cold".
> But regarding the arts (be it music, movies, paintings, books etc) this just won't work that smoothly.


I completely agree with you. There is no way to tell if someone or someone's music is overrated because there is no way to rate it objectively. From my experience though, if I find the soundtrack of a movie to be memorable, it has often been scored by Hans Zimmer.


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## wst3

I do not think he is overrated, and like others, I'm not even sure what that means.

Is he overrated by the critics? Definitely not, he is skewered almost as often as he is praised.

Is he overrated by the public? I don't mean to sound dismissive, but I'm not sure that's a real question - the public will like what the public likes.
(there is a part of me that does with the public had slightly more sophisticated taste, but that's just me being a bit rude.)

Is he overrated by directors - I don't think so, I think directors enjoy working with him because he can add so much to a film, expanding on or amplifying the story line, bringing out moments, he really is quite good at that.

Is he overrated by producers - obviously not - they would not allow him to be hired if they did not think it could help with ticket sales. Make no mistake, 80% or more of the ticket buying public may not even know his name, but when their friends gush about a movie that sells tickets. And his soundtracks can help make movies more interesting to the public, even if they don't know why.

Is he overrated by his peers, or his want-to-be peers - you know, us?

I think there was some jealousy when he first started to make his mark because he took a very different approach. AND, I think many of us would like to see film composers in the form of Williams or Hermann or Morricone or Bernstein or <fill in the blank> because that's what a film composer sounds like. Huge sweeping melodies, lush orchestrations, big orchestras, you know, the "usual" stuff.

Nothing Hans or others who have followed in his footsteps takes anything away from composers who use the "usual" stuff - there is room for both in Hollywood (and elsewhere).

Hans is a story teller, a musical story teller, but a story teller none-the-less, and he uses every tool at his disposal, orchestras, sample libraries, synthesizers, soloists, sound effects - you name it, if it is audible he will use it. And he can create simple, and he can create complex, and he has a very good instinct about when to do one or the other.

Just because he is not a film composer in the mold of those who came before him does not take away from his accomplishments. Many of his soundtracks are every bit as memorable as those that came before.

The really funny thing, to me, is I wonder if we'll be having this same conversation when the next composer breaks the mold. I imagine we will.


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## PeterN

ism said:


> Isn't the point that when the Beatles do a I-IV-V there's probably - all things being equal - something else going on that is probably transcendently brilliant, and sometimes in a dimension you've never imaged existed in music.
> 
> (Particularly if you're 14 and hearing it for the first time).



Strawberry Fields Forever is something different from She Loves You. Its a higher creative/artistic dimension. What e.g. Beatles did (Lennon McCartney and to some degree Harrison) was reaching that dimension, as composers, and at the same time being able to incoporate a beautiful melody therein. You can make complex chord progressions without a melody binding it together, just as easy as simple chord progressions. Modern music seem to either be simple chord progressions, or complex without the binding melody. As a generalization. Not saying Beatles is particularly complex, but it became more than the most simple chord progressions - artistically more.

And Im not saying Zimmer lacks that ability, but it doesnt show out too much. As a sacriledge here. But many of you have made good points, not denying that, Im more focused on the chord progressions, like I said from beginning.


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## Eckoes

“Rating” is ridiculous.

The question is: does a composer have a sound all his own? A personal stamp? If the answer is yes, he or she has achieved something that the vast majority of people never achieve. That’s impressive...more impressive than the complexity of the chords he or she uses.

Who cares about complexity when it’s originality and personality that matters? That’s why _Strawberry Fields _and _Help_! are on the same level.

I’d rather listen to Neil Young than the Chick Corea Electric Band any day (and it’s not because I don’t “get it”)

So as far as being “over” or “under” rated?

People are just rated....by everyone....in their own way.

It’s that simple.


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## joebaggan

Garry said:


> Couldn't disagree more (yes, this is close to holy!!).
> 
> Too many great scores to name, but to me, the best illustration of his genius is 'Time'. This is a stupefyingly simple tune. It's so simple, I can teach my kids to play it. It's so simple, even I could have written it; any one of us could have. The point is, none of us did - such simple notes, such simple contrasts, lying there waiting to be discovered, and none of us, working away at writing melodies, came close. That, for me, is pure genius. To take something, so simple, and create something so moving, that I could listen to over and over again, and it still give me shivers, is just pure genius. If that's overrated, I just wish I could have a fraction of it, and I'd be happily over rated.
> 
> I went to watch the Zimmer tribute orchestra this year - I doubt there was a single person in that audience who would answer 'yes' to your question.
> 
> Watch, listen and recant your blasphemy, thou sinner  Praise be to the Zimmer.




Yea, this is one heck of a captivating simple tune. Always wondered why he gave that lead part to electric guitar though, seems out of place.


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## Jeremy Gillam

He's not nearly as overrated as Spitfire products.


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## ism

PeterN said:


> Strawberry Fields Forever is something different from She Loves You. Its a higher creative/artistic dimension. What e.g. Beatles did (Lennon McCartney and to some degree Harrison) was reaching that dimension, as composers, and at the same time being able to incoporate a beautiful melody therein. You can make complex chord progressions without a melody binding it together, just as easy as simple chord progressions. Modern music seem to either be simple chord progressions, or complex without the binding melody. As a generalization. Not saying Beatles is particularly complex, but it became more than the most simple chord progressions - artistically more.
> 
> And Im not saying Zimmer lacks that ability, but it doesnt show out too much. As a sacriledge here. But many of you have made good points, not denying that, Im more focused on the chord progressions, like I said from beginning.




True, but my point , I think, is that even some of their simple and/or early songs - ‘I feel Fine’ for instance - manages to do this before they assent (sometime around Sgt Pepper, or arguably revolver) to this higher plane.

In any event, there are a lot of Hans Zimmers. Batman Zimmer may well be overrated - at least in that a) I avoid watching Batman films as a point of principle and so have no idea what this music is like in contextual, and b) I find earlier work (ie Thin Red line) and later work (ie Dunkirk) is a lot more interesting, has much more interesting subtleties and sonorities than this his super mega block buster period of Batman and Pirates. And I think this diversity and constant innovation is somehow essential to Han Zimmer the actually existing composer as opposed to Hans Zimmer the icon and/or Brand.
(He’s had some interesting things to say on this in these pages himself earlier in the year).



But we’ve also seen on these pages (sadly mostly expressed amidst toxic death spirals) just how passionate some people are amount the iconic Batman-Zimmer, and that merits respect also.


I also would defend the brilliance of She Loves you ya ya ya - in the right context.


I’ll have to go back and listen to those earlier Zimmer scores and listen more closely to the chord structure, you’ve piqued my interest in think about this a little more.


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## Kyle Preston

PeterN said:


> Also meant to add some spice - and raise attraction - like a catchy modern news headline.



Thanks for contributing to everything wrong with the internet. We could all certainly benefit from _more_ clickbait tumor-inducing headlines. 

Can’t hurt to point out that the name you’re singling out and condemning in this thread belongs to a human being.


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## D Halgren

Parsifal666 said:


> The Beatles were great, two of the best composers since Richard Strauss. They might be Rock's greatest pioneers.
> 
> I hope you don't eschew simple progressions all the time...they can often help you out of a compositional rut.


Uhmm, two of the best? All the good songs were written by George


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## gregh

jbuhler said:


> I'm just kidding with you, so don't take this the wrong way but I found it quite humorous that you only use simple chord progressions if you are getting paid. Made me think you could offer a chromatic mediant or sharp 11 discount or something!


Makes sense to me - If you start off with all the possible notes and then carve away, one by one, until just those simple chords are left, that takes longer - hence costs more


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## Parsifal666

D Halgren said:


> Uhmm, two of the best? All the good songs were written by George



George rules!


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## ism

gregh said:


> Makes sense to me - If you start off with all the possible notes and then carve away, one by one, until just those simple chords are left, that takes longer - hence costs more



And at the low end of the market - a back alley and a guy in trench coat saying “pst. you wanna buy a major IV ?”


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## Kyle Preston

^ One of the best records of all time.


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## CT

Dear Villain said:


> Not suggesting one can't like a genre or style because of a predominantly classical background. Rather, I'm saying that the preponderance of your lifelong musical influences will naturally steer you towards music you are familiar with and have a deep appreciation for. Also, the more you know about the technical aspects of something, the more you look at things through a more critical lens. A mechanic sees under the hood and not just the sculpted lines of that shiny red sports car that may influence many people simply by its aesthetics. So, if someone's familiar with well-developed symphonies, or contrapuntally rich baroque music, etc. etc. they may find Zimmer doesn't speak to them with the same intensity. Doesn't mean they still can enjoy his music and even admire aspects of it.



I still don't agree, but fair enough!


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## ism

Kyle Preston said:


> ^ One of the best records of all time.




I though that philosophers had by now established that Paul v John v George question is one of the great soul-destroyingly false dichotomies of all time. (Though no consensus on Ringo, last I heard)


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## dcoscina

To answer the question, NO, he's not overrated. He's done for film music what Williams and Goldsmith did for it in the 70s and 80s, what Herrmann and North did in the 50s and 60s and what Rosza, Korngold and Steiner did in the Golden Age. Even people who aren't cognizant of film scores per se know Zimmer's name. So no, not overrated. And this isn't coming from a fan boy.


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## Mike Fox

D Halgren said:


> Uhmm, two of the best? All the good songs were written by George


Definitely my favorite Beatle.


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## Mike Fox

PeterN said:


> Went through an hour long compilation of Zimmers compositions and, yes, while there are some interesting and creative compositions (e.g. “now we are free”), plenty (I find) is simple chord progressions with excellent sound design.
> 
> Not trying to poke on Zimmer here, and with all respect, but what is the opinion in the community?
> 
> I know Verta has criticism on the unrealistic compositions, from an orchestral perspective, but thats not the issue here really, could it be that Zimmer just does quite simple chord progressions sound amazingly good in the commercial field?
> 
> Is this question allowed to ask, or am I going too close to something holy here?


I'll take Elfman over Zimmer any day of the week.

Sorry. That doesn't really answer your question.


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## patrick76

Dear Villain said:


> It depends on your musical background, taste, and what you value in terms of aesthetics, complexity, innovation, etc. For me, with lifelong exposure to classical music, I would call his music "easily digestible" like pop music...nice to listen to but lacking in the kind of depth that would let me listen repeatedly to discover new things. As to being overrated, those you've heard of will always be overrated relative to the greatness of their actual music...think of how many composers have written catalogues of great orchestral and chamber music that you've never heard of. Being famous doesn't legitimize your work as being vastly superior to the work of obscure composers. It speaks more to marketing, opportunity, luck, and offering music that suits the current tastes/trends. Long term, I don't think Zimmer will be remembered like Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven.
> 
> Just my take,
> Dave



Being not famous doesn't make one a great composer either. Please share any music of these unknown greats as I am always looking for great new music. I have a classical background also so don't worry about it being too complex or non-commercial for me.


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## germancomponist

What a cool question! 

When a film/scene needs musical emotions, Hans is one of the best, exactly for doing/writing this. Yes, he very often do this with the right sound, but when you listen deeper to the chords, the tempi and notes he uses, it is fantastic what he is doing, with the right notes and sound.

As a side note: The easyer the music seemed to be written, the more complicated was it to do! Believe me!


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## Dear Villain

patrick76 said:


> Being not famous doesn't make one a great composer either. Please share any music of these unknown greats as I am always looking for great new music. I have a classical background also so don't worry about it being too complex or non-commercial for me.



I barely have time promoting my own music, so you'll forgive me for not pulling up a catalog of lesser known composers for you to peruse. If you are sincere in seeking out such music, there are myriad resources...start a Google search in contemporaries of "fill in the blank composer." Cheers!


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## tehreal

PeterN said:


> plenty (I find) is simple chord progressions with excellent sound design.



This is a pretty lazy description of his music. Try harder. I'll even challenge you to put up a scene and critique it. I suspect you'll discover that much more thought is going into his work than you first realize.


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## Jeffrey Peterson

No other composer in history has stirred deep complex emotions in me like Hans Zimmers music. I don't think he is overrated at all.


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## bfreepro

He's probably the best in the biz at instantly capturing any mood and writing specifically for picture. As far as total composition, there are others who are much more technically advanced when it comes to theory, etc. His scores often simply enhance the picture as opposed to taking the spotlight, but he's capable of doing both. He doesn't really write those themes you instantly remember and hum all day (Star Wars, etc) but he doesn't try to. I think he's an absolute master of his craft and the most influential composer of the past 10-20 years. There are many aspects that go into his productions that aren't given credit, the natural and synthesized sound palettes he conjures up are second to none. It's worth noting, purists often dislike him, and I believe it comes down to this: he writes in a different way, much more modern, and his song structure is much more akin to an EDM/electronic song than a traditional film score. If you get past this, you're in for a real treat. It's this way he breaks barriers and pushes the envelope, and some people will never be OK with that.


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## AllanH

I think Hans Zimmer is a genius. He has a unique ability to express whatever is necessary for the movie. He can write memorable themes (Gladiator, Pirates..), set the mood with tone and percussion (e.g. Batman), create tension/drama (Dunkirk, Inception,Interstellar ) or whatever is required. He always stretches his musical language - I cannot think of anyone else today with such expressive skills.


----------



## Atarion Music

If you ask Hans, he'd probably say he's over-rated. But then again, I believe EVERY successful composer believes they're over-rated. There's no way to tell, it's pure preference. I myself respect HZ, he went out into the world and did what he had to do and left his mark for generations to come.

Everyone's taste and orchestral preferences are different but even so, no one can deny the fact that he raised the bar for upcoming composers. An example is Danny Elfman's justice league score. With respect, this falls into the HERO genre but he came in to compose after Hans and the masses for some reason still expected big blaring horns, epic drums, synths and such. Instead they received a perfectly normal energetic classical score. How did the fans respond? Horribly. Some went as far as calling for Elfman's retirement. 

In my opinion, there's no doubt that Hans Zimmer set a new standard for the Hero genre, a feat alone that could possibly consider him under-rated. Now whether that's for better or worst, that too is of personal preference.


----------



## creativeforge

Lots of great comments. I think what comes out most is that there is a "style" associated to his success, and many people want to reproduce it so they think it will enhance their movie's success. When in fact Hans would say: "Create your own, each movie is different, explore, experiment. Then do it again from scratch next time if you can." 

My thought is that it's not Hans that is overrated, it's an assumed idea that a certain type of music is necessary to make a movie "epic," and that repeating a successful recipe is going to make it work. Hans is not only a composer but an astute and passionate producer. Cool.


----------



## Olfirf

I think yes, he is overrated as a composer. He cannot be overrated regarding success as he has created an industry of composition that brings out all kinds of stylistically different music. But that is his work as a producer, not as a composer.


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

Jeffrey Peterson said:


> No other composer in history has stirred deep complex emotions in me like Hans Zimmers music. I don't think he is overrated at all.



This. And he’s the one who got me interested in soundtracks after watching Gladiator. 
Definitely not overrated in my humble opinion.


----------



## ptram

funnybear said:


> The genius of Zimmer is his ability to add an absolutely quintessential part to the storytelling of a movie.


It depends on the movie. I consider Dunkirk a symphony of music and images, and I'm tempted to say that Nolan did the visuals for HZ's opera. In Blade Runner, I really wish there was a version with the music lowered down, to prevent it from disturbing the movie.

Paolo


----------



## AdamKmusic

Would love to hear Hans’ thoughts on this


----------



## Parsifal666

ism said:


> And at the low end of the market - a back alley and a guy in trench coat saying “pst. you wanna buy a major IV ?”




"Hey Bucko, don't tell anyone about this but I'm looking for a diminished chord and no rough stuff".


----------



## palu

I was always on the fence when it comes to HZ music, but I love the process, I love how he talks about music and I love the bold and non-conventional ideas. He gave me a lot of inspiration and motivation.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Poor guy, Hans. I'd feel sorry for him if he wasn't supremely successful and filthy rich. Fortunately for him, he does have the liberty to not give a fuck.

Everyone's over- or under-_something_. 90% of all people who do anything music- or musicianship-related suck at what they do. But when you're successful and people know your name, you're suddenly _rated_.

HZ does what he does, and he's been damn good at making it work out for him. I believe he's sincere and authentic. Some people appreciate his music. Some don't. Who cares if it's whatever-rated.


----------



## Chr!s

I'd be happy to be over-rated and rich as fuck to the point people hate me.

You know, like Nickelback


----------



## Parsifal666

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Poor guy, Hans. I'd feel sorry for him if he wasn't supremely successful and filthy rich. Fortunately for him, he does have the liberty to not give a fuck.
> 
> Everyone's over- or under-_something_. 90% of all people who do anything music- or musicianship-related suck at what they do. But when you're successful and people know your name, you're suddenly _rated_.
> 
> HZ does what he does, and he's been damn good at making it work out for him. I believe he's sincere and authentic. Some people appreciate his music. Some don't. Who cares if it's whatever-rated.



There's that old saw "he's crying all the way..._*to the bank*_."


----------



## jules

Chr!s said:


> You know, like Nickelback


Lol. Not sure about that...


----------



## Cinebient

I personally like Hans Zimmer works really and i really wanted to go to "The World Of Hans Zimmer" in Dortmund, Germany in March 2019. Of course no tickets left (just a few single but i need 2).
I much prefer the not so epic and dramatic tunes. Interstellar might be my favorite so far (yes, it also has some pretty epic tunes). I often hear it in my car while driving to work.
I feel very inspired and i like the stories his works tell me, even without seeing the pictures.
Of course there are other great composers but to answer the topic. 
No, i don´t think he is overrated.


----------



## OleJoergensen

10 years ago I didn´t even know the name Hans Zimmer.
10 years ago I got a new piano student, who already could play a bit of piano. After a short while He brought a big fat book with title music of Hans Zimmer. I asked “who is Hans Zimmer?”. Im an old fashion admire af classical music and believe it al ended after Wagner...... hey just kidding, I admire Sibelius as well.
Anyway, my student looked at me in great disbelief and some disrespect and replied “ Hans Zimmer is one of our time greatest film music composers!” After that I paid much more attention to the music and who the composer was, when I watched a movie. It actually opened a new interest in music for me. There is a lot of film music and film composers I now admire.
It certainly requires talent to be able to compose great music under such limited and stressful form as composing music to film.
If Hans is overrated, I dont know. I mean it is the mass of admirers who decides who becomes famous. We al like to admire someone. Admiring one who is know to be great, makes ourselves feels great..... I think.


----------



## Paul Owen

This topic seems to pop up every now and then and the same things get said. This is entirely subjective and no definitive answer is achievable IMO. 
If you like his work, you like his work, if you don't, you don't. Simple. 

I wonder why this is even a discussion in the first place.

Personally, he's the reason I have any interest in soundtrack music. I bloody love him.


----------



## Parsifal666

Parsifal666 said:


> There's that old saw "if he's crying, then it's all the way..._*to the bank*_."


----------



## patrick76

PeterN said:


> Went through an hour long compilation of Zimmers compositions and, yes, while there are some interesting and creative compositions (e.g. “now we are free”), plenty (I find) is simple chord progressions with excellent sound design.
> 
> Not trying to poke on Zimmer here, and with all respect, but what is the opinion in the community?
> 
> I know Verta has criticism on the unrealistic compositions, from an orchestral perspective, but thats not the issue here really, could it be that Zimmer just does quite simple chord progressions sound amazingly good in the commercial field?
> 
> Is this question allowed to ask, or am I going too close to something holy here?





PeterN said:


> Yea, you make a point. I didnt like that word either, but couldnt come up with a better wording. Also meant to add some spice - and raise attraction - like a catchy modern news headline.



Good trolling


----------



## JeffvR

To me he's an ok composer, a good film composer, a fantastic sound designer. an innovator, trend setter and great guy to listen to.


----------



## Daniel James

No.


----------



## bryla

He's probably the most over-judged composer alive. Can't we just let him do his work?


----------



## Guffy

No.
Is his music as technically advanced as some others? Maybe not, but it's often the memorable and _seemingly_ simple stuff that's hard to come up with, and Hans is brilliant at that.
He's also an innovator. Instead of a traditional percussion ensemble, why not place 12 drummers in the same room and see what happens.. or use a church organ as the main component of a space movie and make it seem like the obvious choice. Hans does that.


----------



## Dietz

That theme from "Inception" is a perfect example: How could one overrate a man who is able to evoke a whole universe of emotions by means of just four chords (or actually their constant alteration)? ... I mixed this and the rest of the gala concert for TV a few weeks ago, and it sent shivers down my spine every single time I heard it during the process:


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

PeterN said:


> Went through an hour long compilation of Zimmers compositions and, yes, while there are some interesting and creative compositions (e.g. “now we are free”), plenty (I find) is simple chord progressions with excellent sound design.
> 
> Not trying to poke on Zimmer here, and with all respect, but what is the opinion in the community?
> 
> I know Verta has criticism on the unrealistic compositions, from an orchestral perspective, but thats not the issue here really, could it be that Zimmer just does quite simple chord progressions sound amazingly good in the commercial field?
> 
> Is this question allowed to ask, or am I going too close to something holy here?



I think Mike wasnt´t critisizing unrealistic compositions (more an unrealistic approach to orchestration), albeit more the lack of horizontal development which isn´t neither taught anymore to its effect nor in most cases demanded, and actually nowhere to see in big blockbuster movies. Instead what I see is a lot vertical development where you pack and add more and more elements to the orchestration whilst the core of compositon stais more or less the same. Its like like saying the same over and over again.

I won´t comment on yet another HZ pro / con thread here anything because I simply don´t think that I could bring anything new to the table instead of repeating myself over and over again. However one thing I say: If you enjoy Hans music, thats good, if you don´t then thats also good but don´t waste your time telling others why you don´t like it, better be a good composer and spent your time improving your own craft and spent time with things you love and not what you hate or dislike because it is a waste of time imo.
Happy holidays guys.


----------



## prodigalson

PeterN said:


> Personally not a fan of simple chord progressions, let me admit that so my stance is clear.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Dietz said:


> That theme from "Inception" is a perfect example: How could one overrate a man who is able to evoke a whole universe of emotions by means of just four chords (or actually their constant alteration)? ... I mixed this and the rest of the gala concert for TV a few weeks ago, and it sent shivers down my spine every single time I heard it during the process:








^^^
That is the face of a man who don't give a f if you think he's overrated


----------



## Akarin

No. He's a master storyteller.


----------



## ed buller

almost certainly the opposite.

e


----------



## PeterN

bryla said:


> He's probably the most over-judged composer alive. Can't we just let him do his work?



Let me just say, I wanted to articulate why Hans Zimmers compositions dont strike me as masterpieces, and thats just totally cool, most people disagree. People here have though explained why Hans Zimmer is Zeus on Olympos in the film music production industry, and most of it - if not all - are reasonable and good arguments. Even testimonials. Thanks to all for that.

That being said, answering your question, Id be curious to hear why you say this:



bryla said:


> He's probably the most over-judged composer alive.


----------



## Architekton

If its so easy to create music (of that quality) that he does - pls, do it, I cant wait to hear it.


----------



## poetd

Hell, the man even has great pick technique on his guitar, did Beethoven or Mozart or Bach have great pick technique? No they did not.

Res Ipsa Loquitur.


----------



## poetd

Dietz said:


> That theme from "Inception" is a perfect example: How could one overrate a man who is able to evoke a whole universe of emotions by means of just *four* chords (or actually their constant alteration)?



Five.


----------



## dpasdernick

Hans Zimmer made film composition cool for the masses. He's more of a rock star than a film composer. A lot of people spend their entire lives searching for one great melody. He pumps them out on a daily basis. He knows how to collaborate with a team to get the best music produced to suit the film. Plus... He's pretty darn humble at the end of the day. Is Hans Zimmer overrated? Not a fucking chance. He's earned every second of it.


----------



## PeterN

I might want to add here, as addition to all other opinions, that I cant find any other composer creating a similar wide clear stereo field like Hans Zimmer without phasing, or that low end without being the slightests muddy. And having it mastered that loud and clear too. This as a compliment, on top of all the other compliments.

Anyway, I think, the most crucial has been discussed now (?) thanks again to all for sharing your intel, and and and.....well, maybe it could be important for composers to hear why someone would disagree on the concept of masterpieces to some extent. But it depends on from which angle you look at things. I can learn from replies here (like Alexander Schiborrs) that this topic has already been discussed a lot, personally, for me this was new.

Merry X-mas if thats not too corny to say around here. Times are maybe nihilistic enough to make a Christmas wish revolutionary. Just maybe.


----------



## GtrString

Ehh, Zimmer is one of our own here!

Music is not about rating at all, but about doing it, living it, and helping other people with it. Its a lifeform, how can we rate anyones life, and by what criteria?

Zimmer is hugely successful, making scores popular way beyond the usual lot of listeners, and take care of fellow musicians and contributes to others work with his work, making lots of sacrifices.

I cannot fathom how anyone can argue he is overrated.. way off the mark!


----------



## lux

Maybe that's just me, but speaking in third person about an active member of this community and launching a poll about how it would be overrated or not sounds plain rude to me. Something that in real life and with real people I would mark as totally unappropriate and of a terrible taste. Why the digital realm should have different rules? Why it should sound less rude here?

It's like someone created a thread "Does PeterN music suck?" or "Is Luca's work absolute garbage?".


----------



## paularthur

Absolutely not. Most people only know 3 or 4 film composers, Hans is one of them, there's a reason for that and it's not marketing. ..beyond that... I was taught a good way to judge the true greatness of a person is by the success of those they've mentored & fostered.


----------



## dgburns

Speaking honestly and from the heart, Hans has inspired me. In some very specific ways.

-work ethic
-being an entrepreneur (and being a good one)
-constantly evolving his style and not being afraid to take chances
-financial success
-established longstanding relationships with storytellers (aka clients)
-launching countless composer’s carreers
-building a brick and mortar business presence (RC)
-living his life as he wants, where he wants

He’s not the only one, but his contribution to media composing is undeniable. And it’s difficult to explain, but I just find it nice seeing him do his thing.

Thing is, we all have to do our thing. And hope for the best.


----------



## PeterN

lux said:


> Maybe that's just me, but speaking in third person about an active member of this community and launching a poll about how it would be overrated or not sounds plain rude to me. Something that in real life and with real people I would mark as totally inappropriate and of a terrible taste. Why the digital realm should have different rules? Why it shouldn't sound less rude here?
> 
> It's like someone created a thread "Does PeterN music suck?" or "Is Luca's work absolute garbage?".



I can hear you, but if you see down the thread, I explain that it was more a rhetorical question to stir the topic here than meant as personally targeting someone. Knowing the position of Hans Zimmer here, you can also expect the whole outcome to be owerwhelmingly positive. Likely the one attacked would have been me.

And it has been good answers, I think. You can also see me “like” several praises of HZ.

And, and...how to put this is words. If someone is in the position of HZ, with all the overwhelmingly massive influence he has - also potentially on composers that could choose a separate road - I think, we as artists, should be allowed to ask that question openly. Rhetorically, at least.


----------



## woodsdenis

No


----------



## dgburns

PeterN said:


> I can hear you, but if you see down the thread, I explain that it was more a rhetorical question to stir the topic here than meant as personally targeting someone. Knowing the position of Hans Zimmer here, you can also expect the whole outcome to be owerwhelmingly positive. Likely the one attacked would have been me.
> 
> And it has been good answers, I think. You can also see me “like” several praises of HZ.
> 
> And, and...how to put this is words. If someone is in the position of HZ, with all the overwhelmingly massive influence he has - also potentially on composers that could choose a separate road - I think, we as artists, should be allowed to ask that question openly. Rhetorically, at least.



I’d gather this is all just noise to him, he’s out doing his thing. We should do the same.


----------



## kitekrazy

OleJoergensen said:


> *10 years ago I didn´t even know the name Hans Zimmer.*
> 10 years ago I got a new piano student, who already could play a bit of piano. After a short while He brought a big fat book with title music of Hans Zimmer. I asked “who is Hans Zimmer?”. Im an old fashion admire af classical music and believe it al ended after Wagner...... hey just kidding, I admire Sibelius as well.
> Anyway, my student looked at me in great disbelief and some disrespect and replied “ Hans Zimmer is one of our time greatest film music composers!” After that I paid much more attention to the music and who the composer was, when I watched a movie. It actually opened a new interest in music for me. There is a lot of film music and film composers I now admire.
> It certainly requires talent to be able to compose great music under such limited and stressful form as composing music to film.
> If Hans is overrated, I dont know. I mean it is the mass of admirers who decides who becomes famous. We al like to admire someone. Admiring one who is know to be great, makes ourselves feels great..... I think.



Most people on the street probably never pay attention to who scored a movie. People who want to buy his services do.


----------



## Henu

I've never been a fan of his music but as an innovator I think he's completely in his own league and I have a huge respect for him. He might be "overrated" for some things, but in a way he is also very underrated for many.

And his attitude towards music is something many people should also take a note of. He seems to be _very_ enthusiastic on music in general (instead of being a "a job is a job"- guy), has a very humble attitude towards it and is constantly trying to learn and achieve something new. And I have to say, the more I have bumped to his interviews and especially after reading some of his posts in this particular forum my appreciation for the man has risen very high concerning his attitude on music and creating it.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

paularthur said:


> Absolutely not. Most people only know 3 or 4 film composers, Hans is one of them, there's a reason for that and it's not marketing. ..beyond that... I was taught a good way to judge the true greatness of a person is by the success of those they've mentored & fostered.


And if they only know 1 it’s still Hans most of the time with John Williams being a close second I would suggest. At least in germany and in my social environment. So this is something to achieve as a composer. I don’t think you achieve this by being overrated. You achieve it by touching people’s hearts in one way or the other in my humble opinion.


----------



## InLight-Tone

This thread is embarrassing...


----------



## Loïc D

No.

But maybe others are underrated...


----------



## ism

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I think Mike wasnt´t critisizing unrealistic compositions (more an unrealistic approach to orchestration), albeit more the lack of horizontal development which isn´t neither taught anymore to its effect nor in most cases demanded, and actually nowhere to see in big blockbuster movies. Instead what I see is a lot vertical development where you pack and add more and more elements to the orchestration whilst the core of compositon stais more or less the same. Its like like saying the same over and over again.
> 
> I won´t comment on yet another HZ pro / con thread here anything because I simply don´t think that I could bring anything new to the table instead of repeating myself over and over again. However one thing I say: If you enjoy Hans music, thats good, if you don´t then thats also good but don´t waste your time telling others why you don´t like it, better be a good composer and spent your time improving your own craft and spent time with things you love and not what you hate or dislike because it is a waste of time imo.
> Happy holidays guys.





Well said. I'll amplify that even in the worst of the HZS toxic death spiral, there was never a sense that anyone on any side was arguing against the brilliance of Hans Zimmer. I would go so far as to frame it as multiple competing visions of where rests the true brilliance of 'Hans Zimmer'. Only complicated (in interesting ways) by Hans himself weighing in on his understanding of the 'Hans Zimmer' brand ('I have no idea what this is' is I think what he said) that didn't necessarily have all that much to do with any of the iconographies of 'Hans Zimmer' being thrown around.

We can argue over niggles like is Hans a Brilliant Composer vs Brilliant film Composers vs Brilliant Storyteller vs Brilliant Driving Ms Daisy composer vs Brilliant Batman composers vs Brilliant sound designer vs Brilliant other variation on this set of themes. But I don't think that brilliance in anywhere in doubt.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

I feel bad for Hans who has to put up with another bullshit thread like this one.


----------



## givemenoughrope

He’s definitely way underrated as a PR and businessman. He makes music for mainstream films so I don’t see how that question even applies. Ie Film composer is completely different than regular composer. Maybe it’s a bit like Ennio: hyped and appreciated for the obvious and almost conpletely glossed over for many other things.

I really like some of the tracks on Widows. (Is that still Zebra he’s using?) Havent seen the flick yet.


----------



## PeterN

ism said:


> Well said. I'll amplify that even in the worst of the HZS toxic death spiral, there was never a sense that anyone on any side was arguing against the brilliance of Hans Zimmer. I would go so far as to frame it as multiple competing visions of where rests the true brilliance of 'Hans Zimmer'. Only complicated (in interesting ways) by Hans himself weighing in on his understanding of the 'Hans Zimmer' brand ('I have no idea what this is' is I think what he said) that didn't necessarily have all that much to do with any of the iconographies of 'Hans Zimmer' being thrown around.
> 
> We can argue over niggles like is Hans a Brilliant Composer vs Brilliant film Composers vs Brilliant Storyteller vs Brilliant Driving Ms Daisy composer vs Brilliant Batman composers vs Brilliant sound designer vs Brilliant other variation on this set of themes. But I don't think that brilliance in anywhere in doubt.



So with all this brilliance - and me not even denying it - I think it shoud be fairly safe if someone argues that the chord progressions are not that innovative/creative - as a personal opinion. In relation to all the hype. Theres 100 messages about the genius of HZ in the thread, and hardly anything too critical. If that would upset HZ it would sound like a joke.

I understand I poked a bees nest here, well, I have to admit it also feels a bit embarrassing to see this thread running this active. I could change the provoking title, but I’ll let it stay for now. It was a spontane reaction after 1h of listening to Zimmer. And not in context of movies. I will let this thread pass for my side, unless theres some new development showing up. Thanks again for the interest.


----------



## D Halgren

It seems that people forget that it is Zimmer's goal to serve the movie, not to serve the music. He is only there as a collaborater, and to help tell the story.


----------



## ism

PeterN said:


> So with all this brilliance - and me not even denying it - I think it shoud be fairly safe if someone argues that the chord progressions are not that innovative/creative - as a personal opinion. In relation to all the hype. Theres 100 messages about the genius of HZ in the thread, and hardly anything too critical. If that would upset HZ it would sound like a joke.
> 
> I understand I poked a bees nest here, well, I have to admit it also feels a bit embarrassing to see this thread running this active. I could change the provoking title, but I’ll let it stay for now. It was a spontane reaction after 1h of listening to Zimmer. And not in context of movies. I will let this thread pass for my side, unless theres some new development showing up. Thanks again for the interest.





Didn’t mean to dismiss the idea that it’s interesting to consider Han’s chord structures.

Maybe a more general way to put it is I think it’s an interesting question where the location of the Hans’ brilliance is. In Dunkirk, it’s probably not in the chord structures, but more in - I don’t know, maybe the sound design? , or maybe is a kind of quasi-neo-classical orchestrational dimension?  In driving Ms Daisy - well you’ve got me interested to go back and listen more carefully 

But I do think that part of the brilliance of Han’s is the way he he finds way to do brilliant things with different dimensions of sound. And if its definitely not always the chords. And definite not always sound design. The thin Red line had quite an influence on before I even knew that theis Hans Zimmer person was supposed to be famous. (Nor did I know at the time that I was in fact already familiar with his work via ‘video killed the radio star’)

There are sensitivity here b/c of some unfortunate recent vi-c history, but there’s still interesting things to be discussed.

Actually it’s not just sensitivities local to vi-c, but there’s a real Williams v Zimmer dichotomy that’s become emblematic for major changes in the film industry, including the aesthetics of the music, but also deeper semiotics of how music collaborates with images. Which isn’t what your your talking about here, but is nonetheless a sensitivity that’s always going to be present on this kind of thread.


----------



## Dietz

poetd said:


> Five.


That's why I added the "alteration".


----------



## novaburst

The problem is especially with this title give us a perspective of the wider mind set of people who put ratings on composers.

They seem to believe every piece of music from a well known composer must give them goose bumps and that's just not the case,

Whilst you maybe let down on some of the compositions of HZ others would have been delighted but that is just life.

Not all the pieces of music from a well known composer will hit the spot, perhaps not even half, but the ones that do hit the spot will stay with us and have us playing it back in our thoughts for a long time even years .


----------



## PeterN

novaburst said:


> The problem is especially with this title give us a perspective of the wider mind set of people who put ratings on composers.



So let me yet reply to that, I dont see anything neccessarily wrong with that. As long as its within certain boundaries - and not downright dishing, abusive or ridiculing. This is common in art - one poet critizises another. It can be in goodwill too - and its not always like that.

Taking Beatles as example again. When Dylan commented on Lennons lyrics, it took a whole step forward. Glad he did it - Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, would have been ”Love you Lucy” otherwise.


----------



## Mike Fox




----------



## Nao Gam

Chr!s said:


> I'd be happy to be over-rated and rich as fuck to the point people hate me.
> 
> You know, like Nickelback


I actually like Nickelback
Chad Kroeger is a massive tit tho
No one touches my Corey Taylor


----------



## HelixK

Chr!s said:


> I'd be happy to be over-rated and rich as fuck to the point people hate me.
> 
> You know, like Nickelback





Back to topic, the correct question would be: Are Hans Zimmer's ghostwriters overrated as composers?


----------



## Parsifal666

HelixK said:


> Back to topic, the right question would be: Are Hans Zimmer's ghostwriters overrated as composers?



This whole "ghostwriting" thing...I'm not sure what people call "ghostwriting" is any different from what Alfred Newman (an undeniably great film composer) often had to do because of being super busy...that is, relegate certain duties to others to help expediate music for that specific film.

I know Alfred often had to had help with orchestration (he could more than do it, it was just a time thing, as mentioned earlier)...he'd have Ken Darby and others help with the choirs. Back then, I think it was more everyone pitching it to help make the best movie possible.

Perhaps someone can offer me more specific information concerning this "ghostwriting" thing. In the case of Newman, he received full credit for composition for good reason...he wrote the music. Everything else was just getting it ready in a hurry for hopefully mass consumption. @Rctec


----------



## jbuhler

Parsifal666 said:


> This whole "ghostwriting" thing...I'm not sure what people call "ghostwriting" is any different from what Alfred Newman (an undeniably great film composer) often had to do because of being super busy...that is, relegate certain duties to others to help expediate music for that specific film.
> 
> I know Alfred often had to had help with orchestration (he could more than do it, it was just a time thing, as mentioned earlier)...he'd have Ken Darby and others help with the choirs. Back then, I think it was more everyone pitching it to help make the best movie possible.
> 
> Perhaps someone can offer me more specific information concerning this "ghostwriting" thing. In the case of Newman, he received full credit for composition for good reason...he wrote the music. Everything else was just getting it ready in a hurry for hopefully mass consumption. @Rctec


Uncredited composers were used frequently during the studio era. For instance, several composers—some quite famous in their own right—contributed cues to Rebecca and a cue from an earlier film Steiner had scored for Selznick was also used in the film, though the score is credit to Waxman alone. Full details can be found in the little book Neumeyer and Platte wrote on the score for Scarecrow Press. Contracts for the work are in the Selznick papers. Similar use of uncredited composers happened when Steiner scored Gone with the Wind. There was nothing especially unusual about the practice of uncredited composing, and it's hardly hidden, though Hollywood didn't see any advantage to advertise the practice, just like it saw little advantage to advertise that it frequently used voice doubles when its stars sang.


----------



## Mishabou

PeterN said:


> Went through an hour long compilation of Zimmers compositions and, yes, while there are some interesting and creative compositions (e.g. “now we are free”), plenty (I find) is simple chord progressions with excellent sound design.
> 
> Not trying to poke on Zimmer here, and with all respect, but what is the opinion in the community?
> 
> I know Verta has criticism on the unrealistic compositions, from an orchestral perspective, but thats not the issue here really, could it be that Zimmer just does quite simple chord progressions sound amazingly good in the commercial field?
> 
> Is this question allowed to ask, or am I going too close to something holy here?



Complexity does not translate to better music, far from it.

Hanz always seems find the right recipe for a scene..isn't that what you want from a great film composer.


----------



## ism

I think we’re not going to solve the simple vs complex problem today, but Einstein’s dictum of “Everything should be made as simple as possible - but not simpler”, remembering that both sides of this equation are equally complex, seems to be as relevant to music as to physics.


----------



## KallumS

No.


----------



## Architekton

There is so much jealousy in this thread coming from certain guys...lol... :D


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Total no-talent wanker with zero chance of a career in Hollywood.

And no skills.

Or film sense.


----------



## rottoy

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Total no-talent wanker with zero chance of a career in Hollywood.
> 
> And no skills.
> 
> Or film sense.


Would a no-talent wanker be able to afford an '82 Margaux?


----------



## D Halgren

rottoy said:


> Would a no-talent wanker be able to afford an '82 Margaux?


Let's ask Kanye.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Parsifal666 said:


> This whole "ghostwriting" thing...I'm not sure what people call "ghostwriting" is any different from what Alfred Newman (an undeniably great film composer) often had to do because of being super busy...that is, relegate certain duties to others to help expediate music for that specific film.



I don't know of any modern composer who has taken so many people along with him. You really should do your research because Hans has helped so many other writers and players and always given them credit.

This kind of thread is depressing and why I have stayed away from VI for the past couple of years. Bummer, really.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Chr!s said:


> I'd be happy to be over-rated and rich as fuck to the point people hate me.
> 
> You know, like Nickelback



Hi, Chr!s, 

Can we please hear some of your writing?

Thanks,
The Internets


----------



## Jdiggity1

Has the OP been called a twat yet?


----------



## HelixK

All the great film composers needed help at some point in their careers, even Williams, Herrman, Goldsmith, you name it. That does not mean they could not write all the music if they had the time.

I was pointing out (and obviously joking) this ludicrous idea that Hans can't write or orchestrate his own music and needs ghostwriters to do most of the heavy lifting. I was questioning myself if I should talk about this or not but fuck it. A few years ago I had an assistant and very close friend working at Remote Control. It's not every day that one of your own gets to a place like that so we talked a lot about what goes on behind the scenes. I can't get into details but I was told that every single note you hear in Hans' scores comes from the man himself. He either writes them or gives detailed notes on what he wants from his orchestrators. There are no "artistic liberties" being taken there. You may not like the music but it's either 100% Hans or the "ghostwriter" will get the credits.

Hans takes a lot of heat from people that don't like the direction film music took after he became the go-to composer in Hollywood and his music was in every director's temp folder, but the truth is that there are a lot of misinformation and crap being thrown around straight out of scorn and jealousy.

I particularly like that Hans does not give a single fuck about any of this. Suck it


----------



## Studio E

These are all the wrong questions. This whole question misses a way larger and more relevant point. Hans is amazingly relatable, for most of us composers and more importantly still, humans who watch film and listen to film music. I'm so sick of this shit, questioning whether Hans is worth a shit. Here's a WAY more important and less-answered question; Are the rest of us worth a shit? I ask myself this every day, every hour, every minute. You will be WAY better served asking what holes you want to fill in your own game, not in Hans'. Hans, love you man, and all that you've contributed. This thread is truly shit. Perhaps it wasn't with bad intentions but it is never-the-less.


----------



## Chr!s

marclawsonmusic said:


> Hi, Chr!s,
> 
> Can we please hear some of your writing?
> 
> Thanks,
> The Internets



Sure, I've posted it most recently over in the member compositions.

What do I have to do with this, though?

I'd still like to be Nickelback, or anyone else who is "overrated" and also rich, successful, and have an army of women clawing to get at me


----------



## LamaRose

rottoy said:


> I think even Hans would agree that he's a bit overrated, in regards to the extreme oversaturation that comes with the entire film industry eating out of your hand at any given moment.
> However, therein lies the very reason he's far from overrated as a craftsman.
> Hans is reliable, has an immense talent for churning out catchy compositions that linger in popular culture, not to mention giving up-and-coming composers a chance to elbow their way into the industry by working under/alongside him at Remote Control Productions.
> _
> TL;DR Hans is prolific to the point of oversaturation, but he's not overrated as an artist._



I read an interview with him many years back, and he was quite critical and self-condescending regarding his work. He's self-made, inspired a lot of people, made millions... if want the real answer, ask his kids!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

rottoy said:


> Would a no-talent wanker be able to afford an '82 Margaux?



Probably not. He'd have to go for the '83, even though it's swill.


----------



## Desire Inspires

Studio E said:


> Here's a WAY more important and less-answered question; Are the rest of us worth a shit?



I am not worth a shit.

But then again, most of us here are not either. That is why we are talking about Hans Zimmer and not having people talk about us.


----------



## erica-grace

_Is Hans Zimmer overrated as a composer? _

Depends on how you rate him.

If you rate him as a good composer, who has a good eye for music to picture, who knows how to add color and texture to a film, and who knows how to move the story along, then he's not overrated.

If you rate him as one of the best composers ever, and put him in the same league as John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, and Bernard Hermann, then he is overrated.


----------



## Guido Negraszus

Objectively he is clearly NOT overrated. The rest is just personal opinion. The fact that big production studios still hire him and pay him big $ is because they know they get something for their money, not because his name is HZ. People may go for a movie if it's done by a certain director but do they go for a movie because of a certain film composer? I doubt it. As long as we see his name in movies and as long as big studios pay him for the job he is worth every penny and certainly not overrated. Either way, he is already a legend in film music and that's a fact!


----------



## HelixK

Desire Inspires said:


> I am not worth a shit.
> 
> But then again, most of us here are not either. *That is why we are talking about Hans Zimmer and not having people talk about us.*



Damn that's cold. But I have to agree, unfortunately there are a lot of inflated egos in this forum.


----------



## Chr!s

HelixK said:


> Damn that's cold. But I have to agree, unfortunately there are a lot of inflated egos in this forum.



Musicians and artists in general — it comes with the territory, really.


----------



## chimuelo

It’s pathetic really.
The same jealous folks would kiss the ZMans Ass is they thought it might help them in their career.


----------



## desert

I heard Hans is producing the N sample library


----------



## givemenoughrope

HelixK said:


> All the great film composers needed help at some point in their careers, even Williams, Herrman, Goldsmith, you name it. That does not mean they could not write all the music if they had the time.



Not all of them. EM. Just sayin’.

In a sense isnt it the goal of someone in the film or music business to be highly rated or preferably overrated? That’s kind of how you get the job and the confidence from those who are paying you.


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## John Busby

Zimmer is a treasure .


----------



## Parsifal666

marclawsonmusic said:


> I don't know of any modern composer who has taken so many people along with him. You really should do your research because Hans has helped so many other writers and players and always given them credit.
> 
> This kind of thread is depressing and why I have stayed away from VI for the past couple of years. Bummer, really.



I sure am glad you're here to set me straight.


----------



## poetd

Dietz said:


> That theme from "Inception" is a perfect example: How could one overrate a man who is able to evoke a whole universe of emotions by means of just four chords (or actually their constant alteration)? ... I mixed this and the rest of the gala concert for TV a few weeks ago, and it sent shivers down my spine every single time I heard it during the process:





As silly as this thread is, I love this video. Just ace to see someone having such a good time listening to and playing their own music.


----------



## OleJoergensen

It is Christmas today.
Merry Christmas


----------



## Olfirf

erica-grace said:


> _Is Hans Zimmer overrated as a composer? _
> 
> Depends on how you rate him.
> 
> If you rate him as a good composer, who has a good eye for music to picture, who knows how to add color and texture to a film, and who knows how to move the story along, then he's not overrated.
> 
> If you rate him as one of the best composers ever, and put him in the same league as John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, and Bernard Hermann, then he is overrated.


That is well said. Although I might fill in a few options more.


----------



## novaburst

PeterN said:


> So let me yet reply to that, I dont see anything neccessarily wrong with that. As long as its within certain boundaries - and not downright dishing, abusive or ridiculing. This is common in art - one poet critizises another. It can be in goodwill too - and its not always like that.
> 
> Taking Beatles as example again. When Dylan commented on Lennons lyrics, it took a whole step forward. Glad he did it - Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, would have been ”Love you Lucy” otherwise.



I was not feeding off the energy of this thread or the title, just using the title to point out the wider views of people out side the forum, the title is a classic way of how people think.


----------



## DavidY

OleJoergensen said:


> It is Christmas today.
> Merry Christmas


To continue off-topic... am I right in thinking that in some countries (parts of Europe?) those who celebrate Christmas do so on 24th December, while for some others of us the bigger day is 25th December? 
For instance as far as my employer (non-music-related) is concerned, today is a normal working day, although I have booked it as annual leave.


----------



## OleJoergensen

DavidY said:


> To continue off-topic... am I right in thinking that in some countries (parts of Europe?) those who celebrate Christmas do so on 24th December, while for some others of us the bigger day is 25th December?
> For instance as far as my employer (non-music-related) is concerned, today is a normal working day, although I have booked it as annual leave.


In most of Europe, I think, we celebrate Christmas the 24th evening. The 25th and 26th is often Christmas lunch with family or friends. 
Americans celebrate from the morning of the 25th?


----------



## FinGael

OleJoergensen said:


> In most of Europe, I think, we celebrate Christmas the 24th evening. The 25th and 26th is often Christmas lunch with family or friends.
> Americans celebrate from the morning of the 25th?



Yep. Here in Finland the main celebration is today - on 24th.

Merry Christmas everyone and have a Happy and Fulfilling New Year!


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## poetd

I have some strict Christian English friends for whom Christmas Day is a very solemn day with church and the meal (the kids are allowed to open 1 present after the Queens Speech of all things.... ).

They do "Christmas Day" as most of us know it on Boxing Day. 
I've known others do very similar too.


----------



## DavidY

poetd said:


> I have some strict Christian English friends for whom Christmas Day is a very solemn day with church and the meal (the kids are allowed to open 1 present after the Queens Speech of all things.... ).
> 
> They do "Christmas Day" as most of us know it on Boxing Day.
> I've known others do very similar too.


I know many churches in England (and probably the rest of the UK) have a "Midnight Mass" around the evening of 24th/morning of 25th December. 
I guess that historically that might have marked the start of Christmas celebrations, but people would go home/ sleep/ and do the rest of Christmassy things on 25th Dec and after.


----------



## D Halgren

How relevant is this... It's a Christmas miracle!!!


----------



## cmillar

I'd say 'under-rated'.... based on some pure genius, magical musical solutions that just "work" and go with the story of the film (visuals included).

What's sad is that so many people on the forum (and sample library developers) are only attracted to the "epic/ominous/ostinato/" moments that HZ has composed.

I find some of his most 'sparse' music to be pure genius. (ie: the 'Man of Steel' theme and the rising 4ths and 5ths...totally great and helps to really serve the film)


----------



## PeterN

cmillar said:


> I'd say 'under-rated'.... based on some pure genius, magical musical solutions that just "work" and go with the story of the film (visuals included).
> 
> What's sad is that so many people on the forum (and sample library developers) are only attracted to the "epic/ominous/ostinato/" moments that HZ has composed.
> 
> I find some of his most 'sparse' music to be pure genius. (ie: the 'Man of Steel' theme and the rising 4ths and 5ths...totally great and helps to really serve the film)



Talking from outside the film music still, just as music compositions, I was thinking it (Man of Steele) sounds a bit like Mike & Mechanics ”Living Years” there in the beginning, then it went to the same three chords with the ostinatos. And some kind of countermelody.

Would have liked to hear that version as Mike and The Mechanics version instead.

Its too laaaateee.....wheeen weeee dieeee......taaadaaaa daaaaaa......(great melody)

And now the bells come in! Now the electric guitar is there! Wow! And that sexy violin player! Lightshow!

Man that would have been something. Even for film.

Thumbs up for Mike and the Mechanics.


----------



## gjelul

This question... oh boy 

Zimmer is a film composer, and that should say it all. There is 2 types of film composers, a) the classically / formally trained ones, and b) the guitar player (or something else) turned film composer.

Zimmer is not a classically / formally trained composer, so it is not fair to look at his of work like someone would look at scores from Steiner, Korngold, Goldsmith, or Williams. I will not look at Zimmer's scores to 'learn' composition. Imo, he's the perfect example of the 'modern' film composer writing in a simple style (can't expect composition complexity like the names mentioned above) and presenting it in the highest possible production value. And for that production value / sound he's a master. Everyone tries to mimic the Zimmer 'sound' one way or the other, listen to most of the trailers out there... look at most of the scores on movies today, everything is almost the same 

Zimmer is responsible for many composers working today in Hollywood. Too many to name here have come out of the Remote Control and so on set-up. Even musicians / performers on his scores have started careers as film composers pushed by him. Most of these composers, with a couple of exceptions (John Powell comes to mind,) write like Zimmer. And that does amplify even more the Zimmer 'sound.'

Zimmer is a successful businessman. He found a formula, built a functioning system, and is now worth millions doing something that others try learn how to do for decades in schools like Julliard, McGill, etc. To some he maybe a 'genius' composer, to some, his mediocrity has become a style and the norm of the day.

Zimmer is a master dramatist and for a film composer this is absolutely a necessity. 

Regardless of his writing style, or how he's done the scores we hear today bearing his name, Zimmer is an authority and a huge reference for a lot of film composers or want-to-be film composers out there.

Imo, Zimmer, or anyone for that matter, should be seen for what they are. A comparison with a titan, such as, John Williams for example is not fair 

There is room for everyone in this business


----------



## PeterN

gjelul said:


> This question... oh boy
> 
> Zimmer is a film composer, and that should say it all. There is 2 types of film composers, a) the classically / formally trained ones, and b) the guitar player (or something else) turned film composer.



You keep hearing this ”two types of film composers” or the ”williams school and the zimmer school”. Is it really a simple dichotomy like that, or is this just some phrase you guys learned to repeat like parrots.

These days they even say we got something like 100 genders. To distance from the cult, me saying there are 542 types of film composers. The 3 chord zimmer style with perfect pitch is one of them.


----------



## ism

Can we have 542 ways of being overrated then too please? And a another 542 of being underrated.


----------



## PeterN

ism said:


> Can we have 542 ways of being overrated then too please? And a another 542 of being underrated.



Theres a world outside Hollywood too. I wouldnt even look in that direction, considering what two type crap it (apparently) produces today. Thats a rough estimation, not talking from inside.


----------



## poetd

ism said:


> And a another 542 of being underrated.



#1
He has a much underrated guitar technique.

He holds his pick properly. 
25 years of playing and 2 guitar tutors never could get the anchoring out of me, a terrible habit to have, no matter how hard you work on your technique.
Hans rocks on stage with no anchoring and a nice free wrist motion. That's GOOD technique.


----------



## jbuhler

I think folks would be surprised to learn how many composers of the studio era came to film composition through work in musical theater, picture palaces, dance bands, and other entertainment musics. Arguably Steiner’s career path was actually quite close to Zimmer’s, with allowance for different times and all. But if you look at, say Copland’s criticism of Steiner, there are definite affinities, and Oscar Lavant’s biting commentary on Steiner for being a third rate Broadway additional music composer who somehow stumbled into success as the first dominant film composer of the sound era is quite amusing, and again the parallels of invective are instructive.


----------



## ism

Yes, 542 seems awfully low actually.


----------



## ism

jbuhler said:


> I think folks would be surprised to learn how many composers of the studio era came to film composition through work in musical theater, picture palaces, dance bands, and other entertainment musics. Arguably Steiner’s career path was actually quite close to Zimmer’s, with allowance for different times and all. But if you look at, say Copland’s criticism of Steiner, there are definite affinities, and Oscar Lavant’s biting commentary on Steiner for being a third rate Broadway additional music composer who somehow stumbled into success as the first dominant film composer of the sound era is quite amusing, and again the parallels of invective are instructive.



Wow a taxonomy of invective, how cool is that.


----------



## rgames

How does one rate a composer?

And where might I find the ratings?


----------



## mouse

The problem is the medium. Hans writes music for the medium (film) not "concert music" which is a totally different area entirely. In film music, he does story telling better than almost everyone else. Until we hear him create a concerto etc. then it's unfair to say "he's not a great composer" etc.

Film music is just a completely different medium to write for. You write what's *needed *not what sounds nice and is "elitist"


----------



## PeterN

mouse said:


> The problem is the medium. Hans writes music for the medium (film) not "concert music" which is a totally different area entirely. In film music, he does story telling better than almost everyone else. Until we hear him create a concerto etc. then it's unfair to say "he's not a great composer" etc.
> 
> Film music is just a completely different medium to write for. You write what's *needed *not what sounds nice and is "elitist"



Another of these dogmas of the cult language.


----------



## mouse

PeterN said:


> Another of these dogmas of the cult language.



Sorry I have no idea what that means


----------



## novicecomposer

Isn't Hans on this site? This kind of post would be an insult to him. But I do think he's overrated. I think He is more of a good sound engineer than a composer. He could make people cry with a simple 8 note C major scale with a good EQ and reverb with the help of Alan Meyerson and some his Remote Control composers working with (for) him. On many occasions his orchestration is not realistic. It sounds great in a final mix but not so much in real orchestra. Hans himself once told to a real orchestra that they should double the horn players, not because they sound inadequate but because some of the players will actually have time to breathe!


----------



## Quasar

Mike Fox said:


> Definitely my favorite Beatle.


I didn't know Hans Zimmer was a Beatle. I'm learning so much from this thread!

More seriously, but still not seriously, George was great. But when it comes to the question of who was the best Beatle, the correct answer is John.


----------



## Paul Owen

PeterN said:


> Another of these dogmas of the cult language.



Still grinding that axe yeah?


----------



## Mike Fox

Quasar said:


> But when it comes to the question of who was the best Beatle, the correct answer is John.


Nah. John didn't write, "While My Guitar Gently Weeps".


----------



## Quasar

Mike Fox said:


> Nah. John didn't write, "While My Guitar Gently Weeps".


But George didn't write _Working Class Hero_ or _Look at Me_...But let's agree that neither of them are overrated, unlike that no-talent upstart Beethoven.


----------



## D Halgren

Quasar said:


> But George didn't write _Working Class Hero_ or _Look at Me_...But let's agree that neither of them are overrated, unlike that no-talent upstart Beethoven.


But John didn't write Long, long, long. An often overlooked masterpiece!


----------



## whiskers

The nice thing about the Zimmer is he's also an astute businessman which probably helped his exposure and sales I'm sure. Maybe less beneficial for his subordinates at remote control


----------



## ka00

PeterN said:


> I had to apply to get my ban lifted (arguing with communists in political area)



I’d say this thread counts as a parole violation.


----------



## blougui

Quasar said:


> I didn't know Hans Zimmer was a Beatle. I'm learning so much from this thread!
> 
> More seriously, but still not seriously, George was great. But when it comes to the question of who was the best Beatle, the correct answer is John.


I beg to disagree. How dare you ? You're on VI. Control fcs.
No doubt it was *George Martin* all the way.


----------



## Vik

blougui said:


> No doubt it was *George Martin* all the way.


I guess George Martin was my fav Beatle as well.
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/...eatles-moments-we-owe-to-george-martin-14719/
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/life/...in-beatles-five-great-contributions/81520744/


----------



## Rctec

Merry Christmas!
Please don’t forget that none of you actually know me. I’ve become a sort of brand to most people. They forget that I’m actually just a normal guy inside this hurricane. Not the greatest composer, not a good businessman (I stay as far from the business side as I can...) and I’ve been lucky and grateful to the directors that let me run with my ideas. I do what I do because I love it. And I’m unemployable and without any other qualifications.
But I thought Henry Jackman was under appreciated when I first met him. He, John Powell, Harry Gregson-Williams, Lorne Balfe, Ramin Djawadi - we where just Musicians...
I can’t speak for myself, but here is a thing I just saw of Henry’s...


----------



## HelixK

Rctec said:


> Merry Christmas!
> Please don’t forget that none of you actually know me. I’ve become a sort of brand to most people. They forget that I’m actually just a normal guy inside this hurricane. Not the greatest composer, not a good businessman (I stay as far from the business side as I can...) and I’ve been lucky and grateful to the directors that let me run with my ideas. I do what I do because I love it. And I’m unemployable and without any other qualifications.
> But I thought Henry Jackman was under appreciated when I first met him. He, John Powell, Harry Gregson-Williams, Lorne Balfe, Ramin Djawadi - we where just Musicians...
> I can’t speak for myself, but here is a thing I just saw of Henry’s...




I wasn't expecting that at all!!! How awesome it is that THE Hans Zimmer take some time from his busy schedule to come here and give us some insight about his work and life.

This is a whole different level of inspiration. Thanks and merry Christmas to you!


----------



## HelixK

And now I have 735 posts to stal..... errrr I mean read


----------



## Rctec

Here is a piece that Henry speaks about where I was trying to write in a more traditional “Symphonic” style (which actually comes easiest to me, but doesn’t really work for most films, I feel...) this is from a concert last months in Vienna. If you wind in to about 29:30, you get my original demo for the Da Vinci Code, just played, not overproduced....

Enjoy!
-Hz-


----------



## OleJoergensen

Merry Christmas to you and your family Hans.
Thank you for sharing- it is beautiful and dramatic!


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

Rctec said:


> Here is a piece that Henry speaks about where I was trying to write in a more traditional “Symphonic” style (which actually comes easiest to me, but doesn’t really work for most films, I feel...) this is from a concert last months in Vienna. If you wind in to about 29:30, you get my original demo for the Da Vinci Code, just played, not overproduced....
> 
> Enjoy!
> -Hz-




Merry christmas Hans! Hope you have a good one


----------



## D Halgren

Rctec said:


> Here is a piece that Henry speaks about where I was trying to write in a more traditional “Symphonic” style (which actually comes easiest to me, but doesn’t really work for most films, I feel...) this is from a concert last months in Vienna. If you wind in to about 29:30, you get my original demo for the Da Vinci Code, just played, not overproduced....
> 
> Enjoy!
> -Hz-



Yes, yes Hans, but the question was, who was the best Beatle?


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

That's one pretty choir hui... _ahem_ anyway... 
A wonderful suite of my favorite parts from the Da Vinci Code soundtrack (glad they didn't only include the most popular parts). This score and Angels and Demons are certainly very high up in my score ranking. I somehow very much connect to them personally. The combination of beauty and darkness, the sense of conflict and rapture... expresses a lot of stuff that's going on in me...
Well, Inferno was more for the maddest parts of my brain!  Very much appreciated as well though.


----------



## Kaleb Davis

PeterN said:


> Went through an hour long compilation of Zimmers compositions and, yes, while there are some interesting and creative compositions (e.g. “now we are free”), plenty (I find) is simple chord progressions with excellent sound design.
> 
> Not trying to poke on Zimmer here, and with all respect, but what is the opinion in the community?
> 
> I know Verta has criticism on the unrealistic compositions, from an orchestral perspective, but thats not the issue here really, could it be that Zimmer just does quite simple chord progressions sound amazingly good in the commercial field?
> 
> Is this question allowed to ask, or am I going too close to something holy here?




Label me an HZ fan to straw-man my opinion away, however: an absolutely excellent sound designer, masterful at forming music that serves the story and characters in novel ways without slapping long themes on the hero / villain (The Dark Knight, Pirates, Sherlock are examples), fathered a unique sound in film scores that have been copied by many ever since Gladiator, and let's not forget that he scored The Lion King (that one causes cognitive dissonance in some people). No, he's not Williams (and I love JW as well), no, he doesn't make the most sophisticated orchestrations and long, romantic melodies, and no, his music cues that aren't main themes and action scenes aren't that worth listening to without the film, but he's a damn good composer for the medium he serves. I think the reason why he is seen as overrated these days is because film directors want him making that iconic sound of his over and over, and worse; many, MANY composers have imitated his sound to death (BRAAAAWM, for example). I think comparing Zimmer, Williams, Powell, Newman, etc., is like comparing apples to oranges.

EDIT: I live in Taiwan, so we already had Christmas, That's why I'm posting on Christmas morning for US folk!


----------



## Nevermeister

Big fan here! It was 2006, i went to local cinema to watch Dead Man's chest. That day i felt in love for film music.
Before then i was a diehard rocker, after that he created a weirdo. Now i love the music of Zimmer, Williams, thomas Newman, John Debney etc. It doesn't matter if their music is complicated or not, their music moves people and it serves the movies in a sublime way. That's the only thing that matters. Sorry for poor english. Merry Christmas to all.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Hard to say really... never sure if you're hearing HZ or RC, and Hollywood suffers from severe nepotism issues. 

It's far safer to hire a blanket name like zimmer even if a lot of work is sourced to other talent underneath him... because no name creative people don't sell tickets - and HZ's quality control does help sell tickets. He gets the job done 100% of the time, and I doubt any of the producers care how. The critique of simple music however is unwarranted... HZ scores are completely digestible by the commonfolk, and that's priceless. 

It's film music - not a concerto. He's there to add to the images on the screen, not the other way around. Criticizing simple film music is extremely disconnected from what regular people want - and quite ivory tower. You don't need 5/8 over 13/16 polymeters, quintuplets, or 12 tone serialism to score a parent tucking their child in at night.


----------



## Kevin Fortin

Overrated by which or whose criteria? Perhaps the question undermines itself.


----------



## Dave Connor

Objectively, Hans Zimmer is a world class composer. I say that because if you compare {for example} his minimalist textures such as in the Batman trilogy, to acknowledged world class ‘legit’ composers works such as John Adams (Harmonielehre) and Phillip Glass (Akhnaten) you see what level of talent is operating in this ‘film’ composer. Instead of the type of weak copied-writing you find in James Horner’s Shostakovich emulations (Patriot Games) Hans completely makes the style his own and in every way. It is his hybrid orchestral sound, his rhythmic sense and percussion instrument choices, his far more arresting and hip modulations and gorgeous low end bass movement and his sense of drama, passion and excitement. In essence, he takes the minimalist style into it’s next phase of development and nearly spoils the listener to its less adventurous beginnings.

When a film composer decides to tackle and employ a modern form in Western Art Music and hits that type of grand-slam homerun it can be none other than the work of a gargantuan talent. Consider both Korngold’s and Steiner’s Mahler emulations in Elizabeth and Essex and Gone with the Wind (both from the 6th symphony): they are pitiful copy and paste attempts (and I like those two composers as I like Horner.)

If you consider that the above is HZ doing just one of the countless styles he writes in (most of which are his own inventions) you realize you should evaluate each on its own terms and merits. For some strange reason people will latch on to {say} the Pirates and Gladiator large and more simple gestures and consider that his ‘style.’ Not just an unscientific survey but unfair and inaccurate. Whether, The Pacific, The Thin Red Line or whatever, he hardly struggles at subtle informed writing but excels at it - and beautifully.

You could write not just a chapter but a book on HZ’s pure sound experiments and that is essentially a completely diffferent art and science to ‘composition’. Once again he is a leader in the field and the definition of world-class. I think he is underrated at the present time but will undergo a serious more scientific analysis and be recognized not just as the historic innovator he already is but as an immensely talented pure composer, apart from the numerous other signature devices he has invented or borrowed. The guy is a true phenomenon.


----------



## gjelul

PeterN said:


> You keep hearing this ”two types of film composers” or the ”williams school and the zimmer school”. Is it really a simple dichotomy like that, or is this just some phrase you guys learned to repeat like parrots.
> 
> These days they even say we got something like 100 genders. To distance from the cult, me saying there are 542 types of film composers. The 3 chord zimmer style with perfect pitch is one of them.




To simplify it for you, there is film composers that know how to read music, and film composers that do not know how to read music. Zimmer, etc. fits in one, Williams, etc. fits in another.

As for repeating like parrots, this is my first time expressing my opinion as this topic is raised. If too much for you then maybe you should skip it. However, if you want to enlighten us with your opinion on the topic, please do so.

Peace and Merry Xmas!


----------



## SterlingArcher

Rctec said:


> Merry Christmas!
> Please don’t forget that none of you actually know me. I’ve become a sort of brand to most people. They forget that I’m actually just a normal guy inside this hurricane. Not the greatest composer, not a good businessman (I stay as far from the business side as I can...) and I’ve been lucky and grateful to the directors that let me run with my ideas. I do what I do because I love it. And I’m unemployable and without any other qualifications.
> But I thought Henry Jackman was under appreciated when I first met him. He, John Powell, Harry Gregson-Williams, Lorne Balfe, Ramin Djawadi - we where just Musicians...
> I can’t speak for myself, but here is a thing I just saw of Henry’s...




When it comes to all movies, but especially comic book movies, two of the absolute benchmarks for me are The Dark Knight and Captain America: The Winter Soldier. The scores of those films by Rctec and Henry are one of the major contributing factors to my great, great love of those films.


----------



## NoamL

Gracious response to a ridiculous thread.

BTW Jackman is incredible. Should have been nominated for_* Jumanji*_!


----------



## SterlingArcher

Reading through all of the responses in this thread reminded me of this video which I'll post below. It may provide some insight to the discussion, it may not. But it certainly was interesting to me. Have A Look.

A Theory Of Film Music


----------



## germancomponist

Rctec said:


> (which actually comes easiest to me, but doesn’t really work for most films, I feel...)


+1
"I feel" ...., adorable! 
I think, all your music is the result about what you feelt when you saw the pictures.Yes, no?


----------



## Rctec

germancomponist said:


> +1
> "I feel" ...., adorable!
> I think, all your music is the result about what you feelt when you saw the pictures.Yes, no?



Well, sort off. But you know what I really try to “feel”? What’s inside the psychology of the writer/director. That’s where the film is buried. At the end it all turns into a long quasi-psychology session. A Terry Malick (for example) will have things hidden away in his psyche that you need to dig out of him, if you want to make a coherent score...since he writes, shoots and directs from a very subconscious place. All the good one’s do. At the end, all I do is score dreams. I try to be as good a composer as I am at that moment in time. We all do. Not having gone to music school I have a weirdly clean palette, which means I have to approach my music from a non-formal way and invent my own devices - for better or for worse. I was never taken down path of dissecting or intellectualizing music to a place where I couldn’t find the simple pleasure in I-IV-V. Plus, I’m not completely untrained. Just not in a normal and formal way. I learned by being right there at the beginning of sequencers, so funnily in one way I was ahead of what they where teaching, so it only makes sense to me to be fluent at reading music in a key-editor (after all, a far more precise way of notating music, since each note is expressed not just in pitch and length, but with a full set of dynamic attributes attached) than black dots on a page. 
Curiously, the two directors I first worked with and maybe learned the most from, just died recently within two weeks of each other: Nic Roeg and Bernardo Bertolucci. Both are considered as “intellectual”, but I experienced them as great visualists and dreamers. I was only a small part of it, but when I saw the first cut of “The Last Emperor”, it was in linear time. The finished film (as is every single Nic Roeg film...) was a dance with time...

...as far as who the best Beatle was? There is no such thing. The strength was that they all contributed, collaborated, brought out the best in each other (is there a more maligned drummer than Ringo, while most real musicians and great drummers recognize how integral and musical he was to their songs) - as did George Martin, who gave me my first job... so, Thank You, George!

-H-


----------



## kevthurman

Yes.


----------



## kevthurman

mikefrommontreal said:


> He's not overrated. Hans is not a traditional composer in the John Williams sense of the word.He _can_ do that stuff, but his bread and butter is more in making soundscapes. It's almost like he's a sound designer with notes.
> And the little Zimmer wannabes all try and draw from the same thing, the "epic' sound, with the low string ostinatos, etc. But he's more than that. Maybe he's not Herrmann or Williams, but nobody could have written a more appropriate score for POTC, or Inception, or many others. I'm not saying he's my favorite composer (though he's up there) but he's definitely not overrated.



I really don't think he _can_ do that stuff anywhere near the level of someone like John Williams. Especially not something like Star Wars or Indiana Jones.


----------



## Paul Owen

kevthurman said:


> I really don't think he _can_ do that stuff anywhere near the level of someone like John Williams. Especially not something like Star Wars or Indiana Jones.



What really bothers me about these kind of threads is how people, through the protection and anonymity of their screens and profile tags/names feel the need to criticise someone's work and career, chime in about one's perceived weaknesses or subject someone to the kind of scrutiny that is not becoming of what they have achieved. How helpful is it really to create a thread like this when there's no defined objective? 

Musicians helping musicians? Nope. 

I like this forum and find the wealth of knowledge valuable to the point that I visit regularly but feel there is a contingent of butt hurt idiots wanting to disable the train of good feeling. Go to Twitter, you'll settle in well there.

One last thing, remember when people like Thomas Bergersen were on here? They f*cked off cos of threads like this. I think Daniel James nearly did for the same reason. 

A select few on here would do well to remember that Hans, DJ and others don't have to be here and provide knowledge that hobbyists (like me) would pay for and as my mum keeps telling me "don't look a gift horse in the mouth". 

All the best


----------



## Parsifal666

marclawsonmusic said:


> I don't know of any modern composer who has taken so many people along with him. You really should do your research because Hans has helped so many other writers and players and always given them credit.
> 
> This kind of thread is depressing and why I have stayed away from VI for the past couple of years. Bummer, really.



Maybe it's because of the way you put things...as if you don't know what you're talking about. I made sure to mention above that I was simply speculating (you seem to have conveniently missed that).

I put on no pretense of authority, but from what you've written above you most certainly _do_...without giving us any clue as to what/whom gave you this authority. My gut tells me nobody.

Perhaps you really should do your research when it comes to this thread...either that or take a nice nap before you post.


----------



## Parsifal666

erica-grace said:


> If you rate him as a good composer, who has a good eye for music to picture, who knows how to add color and texture to a film, and who knows how to move the story along, then he's not overrated.
> 
> If you rate him as one of the best composers ever, and put him in the same league as John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, and Bernard Hermann, then he is overrated.



I sympathize with this (though you left out Rozsa and Alfred Newman); however _*for his time*_ I imagine HZ is considered as impactful as those other names. It's only from the big picture (taking into account all time frames and composers) that he might suffer a bit, but to be honest the more I think about this the more I'm sympathetic to HZ as a fine composer whom probably should be taken according to his own, highly esteemed, efforts.


----------



## Jono

The short answer is no....


----------



## Parsifal666

Paul Owen said:


> A select few on here would do well to remember that Hans and others don't have to be here and provide knowledge that hobbyists (like me) would pay for and as my mum keeps telling me "don't look a gift horse in the mouth".
> 
> All the best



I could be wrong, but having been here for years and seen plenty of HZ's posts, it seems to me he _*wants *_to be here...likes it! Forgetting the trolls and people who seem determined to force their misguided views on the rest of us, Vi-Control is a good place to hang out!


----------



## Erick - BVA

Kevin Fortin said:


> Overrated by which or whose criteria? Perhaps the question undermines itself.


Exactly, isn't this all subjective?
There is no question that Hans Zimmer has merit and is extremely talented.
But can one compare his music to Wagner's? No. But I'm sure that's not the point. (some of you probably don't even like Wagner's music)
All composer's have something to offer. My opinion is that there is good music and bad music, and mediocre music. He probably has written music matching all 3 of those criteria. And what composer hasn't?
I despise the idea that it's not "realistic" --you know, can't be orchestrated or anything. Who cares?
To me it would be similar to hundreds of years ago when they were like "we're going to write this on paper? we're not going to memorize it?".....modern day version "we're not going to write this down or make it orchestrate-able? It's only possible through computer manipulation and sound design?"
All that matters to me is the end result.
That being said, he's completely capable of writing his music for an orchestra.


----------



## Paul Owen

Parsifal666 said:


> I could be wrong, but having been here for years and seen plenty of HZ's posts, it seems to me he _*wants *_to be here...likes it! Forgetting the trolls and people who seem determined to force their misguided views on the rest of us, Vi-Control is a good place to hang out!



I agree completely and too, like popping in. It's just threads like this are completely unnecessary especially when they're designed to provoke a response (in the hope) that they mirror the OP's own views. 

As for Hans, I'm guessing you're right, he didn't get to where he is being a pussy and caring about what others think...


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

There's a thing with composers, and also musicians as instrumentalists - perhaps even more so - where some adopt a "sports musician" kind of mindset. I'm talking about the type of musician who values the development of highly accomplished skills, within a set of parameters, and the ability to showcase great creativity and expansion within these technical parameters, over all other aspects. These are virtuoso instrumentalists, writers of horinzontally and vertically rich and complex music, people who can authentically and effortlessly compose in numerous already existing styles, etc. 

Sometimes, people who value this kind of musicianship so much that they adopt a sporting view on musical ability kind of tend to look at music only through this lens. Their evaluation process is then a comparison of facility. Whether you're good or not depends on whether you can play as fast or write as intricate as XY. Hans definitely isn't an athletic composer and I'm sure it's the farthest thing from his mind.


----------



## Nevermeister

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> There's a thing with composers, and also musicians as instrumentalists - perhaps even more so - where some adopt a "sports musician" kind of mindset. I'm talking about the type of musician who values the development of highly accomplished skills, within a set of parameters, and the ability to showcase great creativity and expansion within these technical parameters, over all other aspects. These are virtuoso instrumentalists, writers of horinzontally and vertically rich and complex music, people who can authentically and effortlessly compose in numerous already existing styles, etc.
> 
> Sometimes, people who value this kind of musicianship so much that they adopt a sporting view on musical ability kind of tend to look at music only through this lens. Their evaluation process is then a comparison of facility. Whether you're good or not depends on whether you can play as fast or write as intricate as XY. Hans definitely isn't an athletic composer and I'm sure it's the farthest thing from his mind.



100% true. I hate this mindset. Music is not olympics. Music is a universal language and in the case of a film composer, he tells the story of the movie, not with images and words, but with sounds. Hans Zimmer is extremely good at it just like other giants. More or less, does it really matters? Plus, More or less exist in music?


----------



## Parsifal666

One of the most obvious (supremely cliched) instances of the "sport" mentality is the mercifully dwindling Shred guitar kult. Naturally, the origins of this play-as-fast-as-you-can mentality were far more musical (Uli Roth's Sails of Charon, Blackmore's Highway Star...solos that were still hyper aware of phrasing and having enough restraint to make the points intended as clear as possible).

I played and adored guitar for over twenty years, and recorded some minor league classic metal guitar albums with some beloved cult figure vocalists in the genre. The problem with having what little fame I earned was having to deal with all these young guys on Facebook sending me their excruciatingly soulless shred videos. Some of the most unoriginal, bloodless, essentially anti-musical offal I've ever listened to has to be Shred guitar these days (even Malmsteen had some original ideas back in the day, as heavily influenced by the abovementioned guitarists as he self-admittedly was and remains today).

I should also mention that playing, say, Bach's Brandenburg Concerto #5 at ten times the tempo does NOT do justice to such a supernaturally great piece of music.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

As stupid this thread originally seemed to be I find it interesting how it develops. It is also due to Hans thoughtful and serious comments which I didn't expect and I really appreciate. Imo they say a lot about the kind of human being he is, and how much I can learn from him.
Regarding the value of music I view it like this:
Isn't it for most of us sometimes more important if a beloved person tells us honestly "I love you..." maybe insecure and simple than the greatest writers in the world would write eloquently about love and you somehow feel very clearly that it isn't honestly backed up by inner experience. This somehow is the analogy I have to think about regarding music of value and music I don't care much about. It something very personal of course but in this sense I feel similar about the Mozart Requiem as I do feel about Brownie McGhee singing the Blues. So whom you would rate higher? I can't.
And btw my favourite Beatle when I was 10 was Ringo. No kidding. Not the best drummer but a great guy.


----------



## Parsifal666

kevthurman said:


> I really don't think he _can_ do that stuff anywhere near the level of someone like John Williams. Especially not something like Star Wars or Indiana Jones.



Could you elaborate on what makes those scores so great? Is it the themes, the breadth and scope of composition, the orchestration, arrangement, harmonic depth...please be kind enough to include musical samples, audio and notation are more than appreciated. Are they greater than the scores they most certainly drew from (Rozsa's Ivanhoe, Korngold's Robin Hood, Goldsmith's Blue Max)?

I get the feeling either I won't get an answer, will have to wait until tomorrow to get something mostly gleened from Wiki...

oh and I forgot, if there is an answer it will be almost certainly including something along the lines of "I think he's better so _*there*_!" lol


----------



## SDCP

Is oxygen overrated as an element?


----------



## kevthurman

Parsifal666 said:


> Could you elaborate on what makes those scores so great? Is it the themes, the breadth and scope of composition, the orchestration, arrangement, harmonic depth...please be kind enough to include musical samples, audio and notation are more than appreciated. Are they greater than the scores they most certainly drew from (Rozsa's Ivanhoe, Korngold's Robin Hood, Goldsmith's Blue Max)?
> 
> I get the feeling either I won't get an answer, will have to wait until tomorrow to get something mostly gleened from Wiki...
> 
> oh and I forgot, if there is an answer it will be almost certainly including something along the lines of "I think he's better so _*there*_!" lol


It's not about "greatness". Hans Zimmer and John Williams have very different skillsets.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Is this thread overrated?


----------



## Parsifal666

kevthurman said:


> It's not about "greatness". Hans Zimmer and John Williams have very different skillsets.



THAT'S your answer? Dude, try reading what I wrote again. 

I'm not being vindictive. But being embarrassed might help you learn to think things out and have evidence to back up your assertions. You just proved you have nothing. 

It's not a big deal, I've goofed before too. Just think what you look like now and come back stronger next time.


----------



## Parsifal666

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> Is this thread overrated?



I'm shocked at the idea of this thread being rated, period! But it's been good for some laughs and even lessons.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Parsifal666 said:


> One of the most obvious (supremely cliched) instances of the "sport" mentality is the mercifully dwindling Shred guitar kult. Naturally, the origins of this play-as-fast-as-you-can mentality were far more musical (Uli Roth's Sails of Charon, Blackmore's Highway Star...solos that were still hyper aware of phrasing and having enough restraint to make the points intended as clear as possible).



When I was young, I wanted to be Johnny Flash. If it wasn't hyper speed, it wasn't guitar playing worth mentioning. That was the mindset. Where that got me was that after years of noodling scales and arpeggios and doing nothing but technical excercises and learning solos, I got bored so damn much that I completely fell out of love with playing guitar. Haven't touched one in almost a decade. 

I still feel attracted to the instrument, but when I take one into my hands, there's just nothing there. It pains me. It's a sad state of affairs. That's what happens if you allow "sport" to become your whole focus for such a long time. Once you get bored with all the nonsense, there's nothing else to carry you, nothing to fall back upon. So that's a very precarious road to take.

I've just recently started playing around with guitars again a bit, hoping to find a way to rekindle the passion. I'm trying to get more into acoustic and fingerstyle, celtic etc. Maybe it helps me find a different perspective on the electric as well later down the road.


----------



## Parsifal666

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> When I was young, I wanted to be Johnny Flash. If it wasn't hyper speed, it wasn't guitar playing worth mentioning. That was the mindset. Where that got me was that after years of noodling scales and arpeggios and doing nothing but technical excercises and learning solos, I got bored so damn much that I completely fell out of love with playing guitar. Haven't touched one in almost a decade.
> 
> I still feel attracted to the instrument, but when I take one into my hands, there's just nothing there. It pains me. It's a sad state of affairs. That's what happens if you allow "sport" to become your whole focus for such a long time. Once you get bored with all the nonsense, there's nothing else to carry you, nothing to fall back upon. So that's a very precarious road to take.
> 
> I've just recently started playing around with guitars again a bit, hoping to find a way to rekindle the passion. I'm trying to get more into acoustic and fingerstyle, celtic etc. Maybe it helps me find a different perspective on the electric as well later down the road.



Jimmy, I'm a little freeked because something similar happened to me. I was completely into Rock and Metal guitar and as I've mentioned recorded some fairly successful rekkids (nothing strikingly popular by a long shot, but liked in that classic metal genre). I was more into feel players like Blackmore, Uli Roth, and old metal Gary Moore, but eventually felt tempted by the call of superchops and got way into practicing Frank Gambale and Allan Holdsworth licks. Within four months my speed was incredibly improved, however I had completely burnt myself on the instrument. Haven't played except to dick around from time to time since 2014.


----------



## Mike Fox

Weird to see this thread take a serious turn. I actually thought the topic was more of a joke than anything, hence my jackass posts. 

Now, let me be genuine for a minute. Even though I enjoy listening to Zimmer's music, I think I actually enjoy listening to him talk even more. Whenever I watch a Zimmer interview, he seems to spill nothing but priceless advice that could take a musician far in their career. The man is a legend, and is insanely humble about himself. Strangely, that makes me enjoy his music even more. 

Overrated? No, because Zimmer actually brought something new to the table, which spawned a generation of wannabes that seem to overflow the cups of cinematic music.


----------



## D Halgren

Mike Fox said:


> Weird to see this thread take a serious turn. I actually thought the topic was more of a joke than anything, hence my jackass posts.
> 
> Now, let me be genuine for a minute. Even though I enjoy listening to Zimmer's music, I think I actually enjoy listening to him talk even more. Whenever I watch a Zimmer interview, he seems to spill nothing but priceless advice that could take a musician far in their career. The man is a legend, and is insanely humble about himself. Strangely, that makes me enjoy his music even more.
> 
> Overrated? No, because Zimmer actually brought something new to the table, which spawned a generation of wannabes that seem to overflow the cups of cinematic music.


Well said!


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Parsifal666 said:


> Jimmy, I'm a little freeked because something similar happened to me. I was completely into Rock and Metal guitar and as I've mentioned recorded some fairly successful rekkids (nothing strikingly popular by a long shot, but liked in that classic metal genre). I was more into feel players like Blackmore, Uli Roth, and old metal Gary Moore, but eventually felt tempted by the call of superchops and got way into practicing Frank Gambale and Allan Holdsworth licks. Within four months my speed was incredibly improved, however I had completely burnt myself on the instrument. Haven't played except to dick around from time to time since 2014.


Holdsworth FTW!!!


----------



## PeterN

How are you guys going to make any unique art, even pull out anything creative, when you all sound like the same record.

Yea, I can understand u guys doing those roles about who you are supposed to be, and what one is supposed should say, but its almost painful to watch it. I mean, what all artistical and creative resources are being wasted in this fools show.


----------



## novaburst

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> don´t waste your time telling others why you don´t like it, better be a good composer and spent your time improving your own craft and spent time with things you love and not what you hate or dislike because it is a waste of time imo.



True words +1

Actually this is a good Xmas message for music lovers and wanna bees


----------



## SDCP

Is PeterN overrated as a poster?


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Speaking of N, it’s impossibly overrated.


----------



## Parsifal666

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> Speaking of N, it’s impossibly overrated.



I think you might be obliviously underrating just how possible such overestimation is.


----------



## asherpope

Is Zac Efron an overrated hunky dreamboat? Definitely. The fact that I'm 39 with thinning hair and expanding waistline has absolutely no bearing on my opinion though


----------



## Polkasound

I think half of the posters in this thread should sign up for an Overraters Anonymous meeting.


----------



## Jazzaria

Polkasound said:


> I think half of the posters in this thread should sign up for an Overraters Anonymous meeting.



Is overrating overrated? Perhaps the very act of critically ranking along a single dimension ("rating") inadvertently collapses the beauty and belies the complexity of that which is being measured.

Or something.


----------



## Kevin Fortin

I think this thread has turned out pretty well after all.


----------



## KallumS

Kevin Fortin said:


> I think this thread has turned out pretty well after all.



I think it's pretty overrated.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Rctec said:


> Merry Christmas!
> Please don’t forget that none of you actually know me. I’ve become a sort of brand to most people. They forget that I’m actually just a normal guy inside this hurricane. Not the greatest composer, not a good businessman (I stay as far from the business side as I can...) and I’ve been lucky and grateful to the directors that let me run with my ideas. I do what I do because I love it. And I’m unemployable and without any other qualifications.
> But I thought Henry Jackman was under appreciated when I first met him. He, John Powell, Harry Gregson-Williams, Lorne Balfe, Ramin Djawadi - we where just Musicians...
> I can’t speak for myself, but here is a thing I just saw of Henry’s...



One day djawadi will make his own spitfire library. 

here's to hoping for "Spitfire Audio presents: Season 6 finale cello"

Lorne and Ramin are great thematic writers - an art I hope never gets lost. And HJ's absolutely right - the music isn't just to keep people from being bored... the music is just as much about of the empathy of cinema as the script and the actors.


----------



## jmvideo

Garry said:


> Watch, listen and recant your blasphemy, thou sinner  Praise be to the Zimmer.




One thing that always bothered me about that concert is that Hans is faking playing the piano throughout the entire concert. He's playing a synth keyboard embedded into a wooden piano frame to make it appear like he's playing piano. In reality, he's just playing simple chords and triggering pads... so subtle you can barely hear it. The real piano player is somewhere else on stage.

This of course doesn't mean he's not a genius composer -- just a lazy performer.


----------



## Rctec

jmvideo said:


> One thing that always bothered me about that concert is that Hans is faking playing the piano throughout the entire concert. He's playing a synth keyboard embedded into a wooden piano frame to make it appear like he's playing piano. In reality, he's just playing simple chords and triggering pads... so subtle you can barely hear it. The real piano player is somewhere else on stage.
> 
> This of course doesn't mean he's not a genius composer -- just a lazy performer.


Actually, you are only half right. We did build this piano out of a midi controller. But it just plays piano samples. Which I play. You obviously missed the shows where I completely ruined “Time” or “ Thelma and Louise” with loud, bold, wrong notes...


----------



## NoamL

kevthurman said:


> *the level* of someone like John Williams.



Hmmm i get antsy when people talk about "*levels*" in composition because it's not a scale from 1 to 10. The rules for making a good spoon are different from the ones for making a good fork. You wouldn't criticize a spoon for not having enough tines...

& I'm not picking on you Kev because there are a lot of posts in this thread about "JW's music has more ____ than any other composer" etc.  where whatever in the blank is assumed to be "what makes one a good composer." like: John Williams' music has more development, hence it has more integrity.

I love JW's music, I think he is THE #1 at the specific kind of art he creates, but the things that make JW's music great are not universally necessary in music, they are only necessary for _*his*_ music to work.

I believe his music is really all about taking a familiar musical building-block and recontextualizing it over and over. Between this dark and twisted and foreboding version of the Force theme (3:04)



and this poignant and bittersweet version:



It's the same tune, there's no "development," it's just recontextualized with different harmony and different orchestration, thus making the two scenes feel different.

OK so what? This is not insightful at all. Here's the point: if JW's music is all about recontextualization, the contexts must be *diverse* and they must be *specific*. Otherwise you just have two versions of the Force theme, and the music is merely repeating itself without making an emotional distinction. So JW"s tonal and orchestrational language needs to be vastly diverse to encompass the difference between very _different_ emotions, and it needs to be masterfully specific and controlled to express the nuance between _similar_ emotions. If his musical language were "less literate" then there would be less contrast and variety in what he was able to express, with the consequence also of less specificity and less nuance.

(BTW to hedge a tiny bit: I am not taking a side in the debate about whether film music tells you what to feel, or whether it merely evokes emotions, or is analogically associated with emotions, or whatever. It doesn't matter for this discussion).

But this does not mean a complex tonal language & reharmonization is in itself the marker of "good music." or even the only way to convey emotion in music. Doing that is the "grading a spoon by the number of tines" logic. If we do that then Rothko will always be "not at the level of Vermeer" because he only used two colors...


----------



## Leon Willett

is overratedness overrated as an overration?


----------



## NDRU

Are the Beatles overrated? I love Beatles


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## Parsifal666

anbg90 said:


> Are the Beatles overrated? I love Beatles



I'm not sure you can overrate the Beatles. They weren't Beethoven, but they were possibly the most influential Rock band in history (eeee….I'm kind of hedging now...thinking about the early-to-"Smile Sessions" Beach Boys).

The Beatles' influence just isn't going away. They created a really original, basically new sound. But that could be said of the Stones, Black Sabbath, King Crimson, Sex Pistols (I don't include Nirvana because they borrowed a lot from Sabbath and the Pixies).


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## Erick - BVA

Are FBI scam emails claiming I've inherited millions of dollars overrated? 
Just got 3 in a row today. Maybe that means it's legit. One from Christopher Wray himself. Garsh I'm flattered.

It was on my mind. So sue me.


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## CT

Rctec said:


> Actually, you are only half right. We did build this piano out of a midi controller. But it just plays piano samples. Which I play. You obviously missed the shows where I completely ruined “Time” or “ Thelma and Louise” with loud, bold, wrong notes...



This can't be true. It doesn't make you sound enough like a duplicitous charlatan.


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## Erick - BVA

To get myself back on the rails a bit....
but doesn't asking the question of his potential "overratedness" kind of prove that he's not overrated? 
I mean, all people have different tastes. It's all subjective. 
But there are no threads: "Is Erick McNerney overrated as a composer?" 
Isn't that a good measure of your success, that people are discussing such things? 

I think on many levels we are a product of our time and our circumstances. Had Hans been in the same circumstances as Mozart (time, place, upbringing), I would think that it would be reasonable to assume that you'd get a similar result.
I guess I'm kind of dismissing the innate genius of the soul of a person. So I guess I am. 
I better stop before I get off the rails again.


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## Michael Stibor

kevthurman said:


> I really don't think he _can_ do that stuff anywhere near the level of someone like John Williams. Especially not something like Star Wars or Indiana Jones.


Well no one can write in that Star Wars style better than Williams. Others have tried (i.e. Giacchino, Powell) but that's not what I'm saying, and I wouldn't put that on anybody as an indicator of talent, or overratedness.

I'm simply saying he _can _write in a more conventional straight orchestral style, but his strengths are in the more trippy electronic/orchestral style that he created. 

Also, so often we look at a composers' orchestral work by which we judge their "worth", but in Hans' case, see also the genius in the acoustic score to Sherlock Holmes, the organ work in Interstellar, or the electronic elements in Dunkirk, etc as examples of how brilliant he can be outside of the more strict straight orchestral composition.


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## ism

You can always ‘overrate’ someone by fixing the ‘rating’ system against them.

Everyone talks about how great Einstein was, but in actually he was a terrible Botonist. Totally overrated. Sad.


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## kevthurman

mikefrommontreal said:


> Well no one can write in that Star Wars style better than Williams. Others have tried (i.e. Giacchino, Powell) but that's not what I'm saying, and I wouldn't put that on anybody as an indicator of talent, or overratedness.
> 
> I'm simply saying he _can _write in a more conventional straight orchestral style, but he also know his forte is the more soundscape/electronic style combined with orchestral instruments. And his scores work against every picture he's scoring, always, so what's the issue?
> 
> Also, so often we look at a composers' orchestral work by which we judge their "worth", but in Hans' case, see also the genius in the acoustic score to Sherlock Holmes, the organ work in Interstellar, or the electronic elements in Dunkirk, etc as examples of how brilliant he can be outside of the more strict straight orchestral composition.


I agree. I honestly think he's one of the best music producers of all time. His impact on music will be less felt through style in the long run and more in terms of how he changed the game as far as orchestration and the use of electronics or hybrid scores. This forum probably wouldn't even exist if he didn't normalize the use of samples to mockup orchestral music. I doubt I'd have seen film music as a viable option for myself if it weren't for sample libraries.


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## jmvideo

Rctec said:


> Actually, you are only half right. We did build this piano out of a midi controller. But it just plays piano samples. Which I play.



Well unless it's really bad video editing, there are several moments during the concert where he's playing the "midi controller" and the notes don't match up with the piano lines being heard.


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## SDCP

ism said:


> Everyone talks about how great Einstein was, but in actually he was a terrible Botonist. Totally overrated. Sad.



Yeah, and a lousy juggler. So there, Einstein was WAY overrated as a juggler.


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## jneebz

jmvideo said:


> Well unless it's really bad video editing, there are several moments during the concert where he's playing the "midi controller" and the notes don't match up with the piano lines being heard.


You may want to research "rctec" on this forum, just for fun


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## D Halgren

jmvideo said:


> Well unless it's really bad video editing, there are several moments during the concert where he's playing the "midi controller" and the notes don't match up with the piano lines being heard.


How about you keep it to yourself? It's this constant thread of guys calling Hans a liar that is the problem. I very much appreciate Hans coming on here and giving his thoughts and advice, his wonderful stories, and I would hate for him to give up on this community because of these constant allegations. If he says that he plays it then why would you question it? First, it's too simple, and then he isn't even able to play this 'simple' music? Stop being pricks about the man!


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## ism

kevthurman said:


> I really don't think he _can_ do that stuff anywhere near the level of someone like John Williams. Especially not something like Star Wars or Indiana Jones.




The thing about Star Wars is that its story of the farm boy and the princess is seeped in romantic tropes, most obviously in its constant homage, near to the point of pistache, of romantic serials of the thirties, themsleves steeped in the High Romance of the heroic individual of Wagner and Verdi back to Walter Scott and beyond. So it’s not just his themes that make Williams so perfect for Star Wars and Indiana Jones, it’s the way the the Wagnerian leitmotifs, the Deussy-esque quasi-impressionism, and an immense weight of the traditions Williams is himself steeped in is deeply, historically, profoundly aligned with the type of story and characters that these films embody.

Batman, on the other hand is almost an anti-Luke. Not a reaction to Star Wars itself, necessarily, but the whole Dark Knight iteration of Batman is a kind of reaction to the supposedly inauthenticity of the romantic hero genre, of the type that happens repeatedly to genres after one generation has sucked the pulp out of a particular way of telling a story about a particularly type of romantic hero, for instance, and the next generations reacts with an attempt to restore authenticity by subverting it’s tropes (rise, and repeat).

And the Wagnerian leitmotif style of themes devloping as characters develop and such is an not just a music style but deeply ingrained in the ‘physics’ that holds that entire type of storytelling together in the first place.

So to choose an extreme example - Hans’ single cello note in Batman - not just a different style of scoring, but deeply entangled in how the genre attempts saying something very different about the way a person exists as an (anti-) hero in this Toto-I-don’t-think-we’re-on-tatoine-anymore world. A conventional Williams Batman score might have been wonderful to listen to, but entirely wrong - to the point of undermining the entire film.

And it’s a pretty amazing that Hans gets so much in that singe cello note - could Williams have done that? (Totally not the point).

When we ask us if someone is overrated, sometimes we’re challenging our one tases and artistic judgments. We’re usually challenging the tastes and artistic judgements of other - do other people like this music more than they ‘should’.

The slippage is that this risks attacking the tastes and artistic judgements of others by the criterion of our own.

I have no problem doing this when which there’s a group of people I actively want to piss of, or I think deserved to be pissed off (example: Nickleback - totally overrated, I mean seriously people (*))

But Hans vs. Williams? Does debating one being overrated in the context of the other even make sense without clarifying some of the criterion of what’s ‘rated’ and who’s doing this supposed ‘overrating’ make all that much sense?



(*) Speaking as a lifelong Bryan Adams fan.


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## ism

SDCP said:


> Yeah, and a lousy juggler. So there, Einstein was WAY overrated as a juggler.



A reasonable violinist, in fairness.

Also, kind of bad at math.


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## Mike Greene

D Halgren said:


> How about you keep it to yourself? It's this constant thread of guys calling Hans a liar that is the problem. I very much appreciate Hans coming on here and giving his thoughts and advice, his wonderful stories, and I would hate for him to give up on this community because of these constant allegations. If he says that he plays it then why would you question it? First, it's too simple, and then he isn't even able to play this 'simple' music? Stop being pricks about the man!


Yes. Hans is incredibly humble and freely admits things he's not great at. It's absurd to think that of all things to lie about, he's going to choose to overstate his piano skills. In fact, if he _couldn't_ play the piano lines live, he would no doubt have told us a great story about how he set it up so he could fake it. If there's one thing we've learned from Hans' posts is that he loves to include self-deprecating stories when appropriate. It's part of his charm.

So this silly _"I busted Hans! I busted Hans! I busted Hans!!!"_ nonsense is getting stupid and is way deep into _"You need to get a life"_ territory.

More importantly, this is a forum, not a trial board, so no member (Hans or anyone else) should have to "defend himself" against jealous accusations. If that's all someone has to contribute, then expect deletions.


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## jmvideo

D Halgren said:


> How about you keep it to yourself? It's this constant thread of guys calling Hans a liar that is the problem. I very much appreciate Hans coming on here and giving his thoughts and advice, his wonderful stories, and I would hate for him to give up on this community because of these constant allegations. If he says that he plays it then why would you question it? First, it's too simple, and then he isn't even able to play this 'simple' music? Stop being pricks about the man!



So that was Hans himself?? I thought it was someone being sarcastic.

It's not really a big deal either way. It was just something I noticed. Aside from that, it's a freaking amazing concert. I purchased the Blu Ray, so I must not be that dissatisfied.


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## jim2b

Mike Greene said:


> Yes. Hans is incredibly humble and freely admits things he's not great at. It's absurd to think that of all things to lie about, he's going to choose to overstate his piano skills. In fact, if he _couldn't_ play the piano lines live, he would no doubt have told us a great story about how he set it up so he could fake it. If there's one thing we've learned from Hans' posts is that he loves to include self-deprecating stories when appropriate. It's part of his charm.
> 
> So this silly _"I busted Hans! I busted Hans! I busted Hans!!!"_ nonsense is getting stupid and is way deep into _"You need to get a life"_ territory.
> 
> More importantly, this is a forum, not a trial board, so no member (Hans or anyone else) should have to "defend himself" against jealous accusations. If that's all someone has to contribute, then expect deletions.


I agree with Mike. I admire Hans’ generosity, and I love his music.


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## Rctec

jmvideo said:


> Well unless it's really bad video editing, there are several moments during the concert where he's playing the "midi controller" and the notes don't match up with the piano lines being heard.


Yup. Not enough cameras. Plus, I “overfixed” some in the mix (I just thought it was a musically more pleasing line...) Did you not notice that - the few moments the horns are visible - they play something completely different. Because we always had to “Steal” shots for them. And even Guthrie’s solo is a hack. We filmed two shows that day. The sound from one doesn’t match the solos from the other.
But I’m glad that a clever dick like you noticed! Wow!
Go get your money back!


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## Nevermeister

Wait wait wait... Rctec is Hans Zimmer?  Or am i going schizophrenic?


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## D Halgren

Nevermeister said:


> Wait wait wait... Rctec is Hans Zimmer?  Or am i going schizophrenic?


Yes, it's a shock to everyone at first. He's a real down to earth guy, and he loves just being one of the guys. A musicians, musician.


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## CT

Nevermeister said:


> Wait wait wait... Rctec is Hans Zimmer?  Or am i going schizophrenic?



You thought this was merely a few people casually expressing their dislike for him?

It's more like, "he's here in the room, so we're going to stand in the corner and criticize him, just loudly enough for him to hear, and call everyone else spineless when they don't join in, because obviously they're just sucking up."

My guess is, it's probably par for the course whenever someone notable shows themselves on the internet. The brave giant-slayers are never far behind.

This is how I've read a few posts here, at least. Maybe I misunderstood.


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## lux

the one thing I've learned from this (hopefully dying soon) thread is that a giant of modern film music can actually take the time and effort to keep himself into a crowd of digitally living dead for the sake of contributing to a community. Which is, without any doubt, admirable...even honestly hard to understand at times. All in all it's like watching NBA tops playing with kids on the streets. Definitely nice.


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## Paul Owen

lux said:


> the one thing I've learned from this (hopefully dying soon) thread is that a giant of modern film music can actually take the time and effort to keep himself into a crowd of digitally living dead for the sake of contributing to a community. Which is, without any doubt, admirable...even honestly hard to understand at times. All in all it's like watching NBA tops playing with kids on the streets. Definitely nice.



I've given you a cheeky like for not putting a single word wrong.


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## Nevermeister

D Halgren said:


> Yes, it's a shock to everyone at first. He's a real down to earth guy, and he loves just being one of the guys. A musicians, musician.


That's mindblowing!


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## D Halgren

Nevermeister said:


> That's mindblowing!


Agreed, and he brings so much to this place by being here. It will be a real shame when he stops sharing his knowledge because of all these guys acting like he's a hack liar. It's disgusting!


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## macmac

miket said:


> You thought this was merely a few people casually expressing their dislike for him?
> 
> It's more like, "he's here in the room, so we're going to stand in the corner and criticize him, just loudly enough for him to hear..."



...And that's why I feel sad that it is even going on, and that he is subjected to it. He seems like a really nice guy.


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## jmvideo

Rctec said:


> But I’m glad that a clever dick like you noticed! Wow!
> Go get your money back!



Ha ha... there's always going to one a-hole like me who notices things . I'm a video editor by profession so I notice little things that others would not.

I will happily let you have my money and keep the DVD. Cheers to you for your honesty!


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## Erick - BVA

Mike Greene said:


> Yes. Hans is incredibly humble and freely admits things he's not great at. It's absurd to think that of all things to lie about, he's going to choose to overstate his piano skills. In fact, if he _couldn't_ play the piano lines live, he would no doubt have told us a great story about how he set it up so he could fake it. If there's one thing we've learned from Hans' posts is that he loves to include self-deprecating stories when appropriate. It's part of his charm.
> 
> So this silly _"I busted Hans! I busted Hans! I busted Hans!!!"_ nonsense is getting stupid and is way deep into _"You need to get a life"_ territory.
> 
> More importantly, this is a forum, not a trial board, so no member (Hans or anyone else) should have to "defend himself" against jealous accusations. If that's all someone has to contribute, then expect deletions.


There have been a number of great composers who have not been great musicians. I think what is a better measure of someone's ability is their understanding of the instrument itself. There are many physical barriers which could get in the way of someone becoming a great musician. But does that mean they also don't understand the instruments for which they compose? As an example, are we certain that Sibelius could play the violin part for his Violin Concerto? Maybe he could. But even if couldn't, he very well could have demonstrated or imagined the techniques he used in writing it, because of his understanding of the instrument.
Musicianship prowess and composing prowess are not one and the same.

Edit:
I just read that it was Sibelius' frustration with his violin career (more or less) which led him to write one of the "most difficult" violin concertos in the repertoire.
So it turns out he couldn't play the violin as good as was required for the piece. But he sure understood it 

http://www.sibelius.fi/english/erikoisaiheet/ihmisena/ihm_02.htm


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## Olfirf

jmvideo said:


> Ha ha... there's always going to one a-hole like me who notices things . I'm a video editor by profession so I notice little things that others would not.
> 
> I will happily let you have my money and keep the DVD. Cheers to you for your honesty!


Not to worry! Here, you get a video cut exclusively from one unforgettable performance! Enjoy the unquestionable master at his art ...


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## tehreal

jmvideo said:


> I notice little things that others would not.



I love sarcastic humor like this.


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## roknardin

Olfirf said:


> Not to worry! Here, you get a video cut exclusively from one unforgettable performance! Enjoy the unquestionable master at his art ...




Would love to know what was the problem in this concert. Everything seems a bit off.


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## marclawsonmusic

tehreal said:


> I love sarcastic humor like this.



I don't. It's sad to see people act like complete jerks and not even have the guts to apologize when they see they are wrong.


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## Greg

His work is brilliant because he takes an emotion or idea from a narrative and makes it gloriously explode into a musical statement. Figuring out the notes isn't going to tell you that but listening to the music might


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## tehreal

marclawsonmusic said:


> I don't. It's sad to see people act like complete jerks and not even have the guts to apologize when they see they are wrong.



You've missed my point. My comment itself was ironic. Read it again  In fact, it completely agrees with your sentiment. There were quite a few things that went (and continue to go) unnoticed by the commenter.


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## jmvideo

marclawsonmusic said:


> I don't. It's sad to see people act like complete jerks and not even have the guts to apologize when they see they are wrong.



I admitted I was a jerk for bringing it up and explained why I noticed the anomalies. I also said I don't really care because overall I enjoyed the concert. Hans seemed ok with it and we had a good laugh. But apparently you still feel the need to be outraged. If you can't let it go, perhaps you can start a separate thread about what a jerk I am.


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## Michel Simons

lux said:


> the one thing I've learned from this (hopefully dying soon) thread is that a giant of modern film music can actually take the time and effort to keep himself into a crowd of digitally living dead for the sake of contributing to a community. Which is, without any doubt, admirable...even honestly hard to understand at times. All in all it's like watching NBA tops playing with kids on the streets. Definitely nice.



That comparison is a bit of an insult to those kids.


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## Rctec

jmvideo said:


> I admitted I was a jerk for bringing it up and explained why I noticed the anomalies. I also said I don't really care because overall I enjoyed the concert. Hans seemed ok with it and we had a good laugh. But apparently you still feel the need to be outraged. If you can't let it go, perhaps you can start a separate thread about what a jerk I am.


I am totally ok. Really. But just to prove that I can play it on a Grand Piano (ok,I start in the wrong octave, but it was the first time we tried it live...and it was just our premiere party...), watch it from about 5:00 min in.


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## Jeremy Gillam

Hans, you sure seem bored these days. But it's fun when you get salty on here!


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## Erick - BVA

jmvideo said:


> I admitted I was a jerk for bringing it up and explained why I noticed the anomalies. I also said I don't really care because overall I enjoyed the concert. Hans seemed ok with it and we had a good laugh. But apparently you still feel the need to be outraged. If you can't let it go, perhaps you can start a separate thread about what a jerk I am.


Got to be able to take things in stride and laugh at ourselves or we'll go crazy.


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## HelixK

How can someone question Hans' keyboard skills?


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## germancomponist

Rctec said:


> Well, sort off. But you know what I really try to “feel”? What’s inside the psychology of the writer/director... .


Yeah, you can show everything that you master, you can prove everything you can, but that's no use if it does not fit the author's idea. Your approach is transferable in just about every other area of human life! The most sincere dealing with people and, of course, dealing with the project result. Respect, Sir!


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## A3D2

I agree with some others here that (this is my opinion of course) this kind of thread topic is not really respectful towards Hans as a musician or human being. Neither is it constructive or helpful which (again in my mind) the 'vi control forum'-spirit should be about: to help each other as fellow musicians. I think people tend to forget that famous people are only humans too, with emotions, doubts etc like everyone else .

Imagine that anyone would make such a thread about your music or your musical abilities and question its validity or its importance: for me personally, it would feel insulting and painful. Especially because I almost always tend to doubt the validity of every musical piece I write myself already .

I personally believe (also my opinion of course) that everyone expresses his emotions musically in a different way, just like everyone is also different as a person, and everyone has the right to express their music in their way: there is no "right" or "better" way to make music in general or soundtracks. Complex orchestrations or 'realistic' orchestral works aren't more valuable in my book than a guy making really emotional music on 1 homemade string instrument recording it with a crappy smartphone mic for example. There are no "rules". These different musical expressions all have their own meaning, place and time in the musical world .

And I won't get into defending Hans, because the man has proven himself a musical and auditory genius time and time again. His work speaks for itself. And his many helpful posts also show that he is an awesome nice guy. @Rctec thanks for sticking around this forum and giving advice to people, it's really awesome you're still doing this, even when threads like this are created.


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## Mike Greene

A3D2 said:


> I agree with some others here that (this is my opinion of course) this kind of thread topic is not really respectful towards Hans as a musician or human being.


So maybe reviving it isn't such a good idea?  

I dread seeing this get started all over again, so I'm closing the thread.


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