# How to be emotionally detached from the track you're working on ?



## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 22, 2017)

Hi everyone,

Lately I've been working on a track where I had a lot of hesitations. I decided to ask my Jedi master @NoamL for his good advices, as I knew he would listen to the track with a fresh ear and would probably give me some helpful suggestions.

That he did !

Unfortunately, I quickly realized I was already deeply attached to what I had done - even with its flaws. I just couldn't hear it differently. Any major change, like removing some bars, or developping a theme further, felt too much of a change for me, even if I knew it would probably help the track.

In the end, I'm happy with the final result but didn't make a lot of modifications compared to what it was in the first place. I have the feeling that I almost hated the track and needed it to be over.

Did something like this already happened to you ? How do you deal with revisions, and how do you keep yourself detached ?

I think - at least for me - a part of the answer would be : write faster ! I'm still quite new to this world and a terribly slow composer, fighting with each bar to look like something.

Thanks !

Emmanuel


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## Daryl (Nov 22, 2017)

You need two hats:

Come up with a few ideas and pick one to work on
Become the arranger. Some dodgy composer has given you a turd to deal with and you have to make something of it. Use your craft. It's not your music.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 22, 2017)

If it's something I'm hired to write (film, tv, etc), I ensure there is zero emotional attachment; you just end up spending too much time on it. If it's a personal composition, I on purposely become emotionally attached, because it's an outlet for my own emotional release.


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## AdamAlake (Nov 22, 2017)

By realising it is not a great track in the first place.


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## Mornats (Nov 22, 2017)

Although I don't compose commercially, I suffer from the same. I don't like how a track is sounding so I'll tweak bits, have some big ideas for huge overhauls of sections then it grows on me, most likely through familiarity. So I end up liking it and don't make further changes. I'm sure the end result is no better than when I didn't like the track.

Another pair of critical ears helps. Someone who's honest and open about your track and who knows what you're trying to achieve.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 22, 2017)

Wolfie2112 said:


> If it's something I'm hired to write (film, tv, etc), I ensure there is zero emotional attachment; you just end up spending too much time on it. If it's a personal composition, I on purposely become emotionally attached, because it's an outlet for my own emotional release.



In this case, it was a personal composition. I do agree about the cathartic aspect ! But even when I'm working for library music, I have a tendancy to be way too involved. Generally leads to disappointment


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 22, 2017)

AdamAlake said:


> By realising it is not a great track in the first place.



Oh, that's just that. Easy then. Thank you.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 22, 2017)

Mornats said:


> Although I don't compose commercially, I suffer from the same. I don't like how a track is sounding so I'll tweak bits, have some big ideas for huge overhauls of sections then it grows on me, most likely through familiarity. So I end up liking it and don't make further changes. I'm sure the end result is no better than when I didn't like the track.
> 
> Another pair of critical ears helps. Someone who's honest and open about your track and who knows what you're trying to achieve.



That's exactly the point. Familiarity by making too much time on the track. Making sketches should aldo help tremendously, and I never do that. I just jump into the whole composing/arranging/orchestrating/programming in the same process.


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## Thomas A Booker (Nov 22, 2017)

I sometimes find I get attached to a piece to the point that making changes or revisions seems painful. 

The best way I've found to deal with this is to just make a copy of the whole project. 

Once I know I've got a copy of the original I can go back to at any time, it totally frees me up psychologically. After that I don't hesitate to make changes that are a lot more drastic.

Almost always, I never go back to the original, because the changes I was thinking about making were the right decisions, I was just too scared of "ruining things" to actually go through with them...


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## ranaprathap (Nov 22, 2017)

Thomas A Booker said:


> I sometimes find I get attached to a piece to the point that making changes or revisions seems painful.
> 
> The best way I've found to deal with this is to just make a copy of the whole project.
> 
> ...


This is a good suggestion actually. I have done it a few times.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 22, 2017)

Yes, thank you for that @Thomas A Booker .


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## ken c (Dec 1, 2017)

I also have the same feelings sometimes, but then how can you work on something trying to make it the best it can be and not end up feeling somewhat attached to it? I think it's only natural.


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## MPortmann (Dec 1, 2017)

Some advice that always stuck w me and helped tremendously. 

from Burt Bacharach: "I work on an idea for a minute or two and then set it aside. If I work on it any longer than I start using all my devices on it and it won't be fresh anymore. I have to get away from it. I'll come back to it. I always arrange AWAY from the piano. Hearing it in my head, keeping it fresh imagining it in my head"

And Greg Wells: 
-the results were better with shorter time spent on music
-I got more objectivity by listening to the song less
-the first 2 or 3 listens are the most valuable in revealing info


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## JohnG (Dec 1, 2017)

I usually get very attached to what I write and sometimes have a hard time changing anything until time has passed. But the interval for cooling off varies. Sometimes I need only one day, sometimes one week.

After that, often it's easier to reconsider what one has written.


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## NoamL (Dec 1, 2017)

Go to sleep! Sleep totally resets my ears and I hear all kinds of things to change when I listen to the track the next morning.

Unfortunately sometimes there isn't time to work on a track for multiple days...


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## charlieclouser (Dec 1, 2017)

Here's some of my favorite maxims to keep in mind:

1 - "Sometimes a man will meet his destiny on the road he took to avoid it" - Jean de la Fontaine

2 - "Often an artist will accidentally pass through greatness on the path to their original destination, which actually sucked." - Charlie Clouser

3 - "I got more rhymes than Jamaica got mangos" - Mike D

4 - "Crunch all you want, we'll make more" - Doritos slogan

Translations, as I interpret them:

1 - Trying to avoid doing actual work can often result in amazing results.

2 - Don't be afraid to get sidetracked, or to change course drastically when an interesting alternative presents itself. Where you originally planned to go might have been a really stupid choice anyway. Many bands think their third album is when they finally got things figured out, while the fans like their first two albums and think everything after that sucked ass. Case in point: New Order, Gang of Four, Public Image Ltd., etc. etc. etc.

3 - Over the course of a long creative career you will create so many works that you will likely forget more of them than you remember, so don't be afraid to drag files to the trash. Nobody loves that track as much as you think you do, probably including you, so always be ready to delete whatever you've worked so hard on as soon as someone says, "Meh. I ain't feeling it dude."

4 - If a valid suggestion for a change of direction is presented, don't be precious. Instead, enthusiastically set aside the work in question and create another.


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## InLight-Tone (Dec 1, 2017)

Writing library music has helped me with this. Back when Cd's and records were still a thing, I would labor endlessly over each track for months and never finish anything. 

Now I mainly do library, with the aim of most tracks around the 2 minute mark, and find that the faster I find the 1 or 2 ideas that will be the theme of the track, the better, and the rest writes itself. 

So I like to write the main sketch on day one in a few hours, then come back the next day and add details, then come back the next day and polish the rest of the fine details, FX processing and automation. At this point, it's as good as it's going to get with my present skill level. 

I put it aside, then have a mastering day to add the sheen and volume and out the door it goes for better or worse. I'm totally sick of it now as I've listened to it over 100 times probably. 

With this workflow you can work on several tracks at a time during a given day depending on available time, at various stages of completion, as each will refresh your ears instead of working on one all day and going numb.


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## Rctec (Dec 1, 2017)

whitewasteland said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Lately I've been working on a track where I had a lot of hesitations. I decided to ask my Jedi master @NoamL for his good advices, as I knew he would listen to the track with a fresh ear and would probably give me some helpful suggestions.
> 
> ...


I write incredibly slowly. And I procrastinate by being on this forum or spending days programming synth sounds.


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## Rctec (Dec 1, 2017)

Wolfie2112 said:


> If it's something I'm hired to write (film, tv, etc), I ensure there is zero emotional attachment; you just end up spending too much time on it. If it's a personal composition, I on purposely become emotionally attached, because it's an outlet for my own emotional release.


I can’t not care. I have to have a serious emotional connection to the project - and sometimes it might not be the film itself, but the musicians or the film-makers. But if I don’t care, I’m just wasting my life.


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## Rctec (Dec 1, 2017)

AdamAlake said:


> By realising it is not a great track in the first place.


It never is! That’s why I’m actually always greatful for someone to give me the opportunity to write something new and get better at it. I never keep old demos that didn’t make it into the film. I trash things constantly. I keep writing because I hope to one day actually write something I’m personally proud off. That doesn’t mean I just let crap come out of my room, it just means that I suspect with a bit more hard work and learning, I could get so much better. But you need to finish things and move on. Deadlines help!


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## Rctec (Dec 1, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> Here's some of my favorite maxims to keep in mind:
> 
> 1 - "Sometimes a man will meet his destiny on the road he took to avoid it" - Jean de la Fontaine
> 
> ...



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_Strategies

And Charlie, I’m really sorry about the volume of Bladerunner!


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## charlieclouser (Dec 1, 2017)

Rctec said:


> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_Strategies
> 
> And Charlie, I’m really sorry about the volume of Bladerunner!



HAHAHA! I'm sure it wasn't your fault! That Imax room at CityWalk was just set to KILL, not STUN. Like, pieces of the wall were being shaken loose. I guess that's a good testament to how much bottom end you, Benjamin, and Alan can pack into a track!

(I saw it again a week later at my local "normal" theater and it was not nearly so crazy.)

Maybe my old man ears are just getting a little worn out after so many NIN tours (and SAW movies).


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## synthpunk (Dec 1, 2017)

+1 HZ.



Rctec said:


> I can’t not care. I have to have a serious emotional connection to the project - and sometimes it might not be the film itself, but the musicians or the film-makers. But if I don’t care, I’m just wasting my life.


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## Arbee (Dec 1, 2017)

whitewasteland said:


> How do you deal with revisions, and how do you keep yourself detached ?



I've learnt to work in short bursts and then procrastinate furiously (walks and other exercise helps) while my brain works out what to do next. If I spend too much time sitting there going over and over a piece, I get so close and attached to it I lose all perspective.


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## Carles (Dec 1, 2017)

I cannot avoid getting involved, and I understand you perfectly about changes once you get accustomed to something, but doing further experimentation can lead you to satisfying results.
Thomas' way works for me (the iconic fact of saving a copy as "release candidate"). I know the version is there, done and safe so if I won't like what I'm doing next I always can step back (I usually keep the latter).
I believe a good exercise is to grab the same motive or fragment and try to give it a different character, like if you were scoring a movie and the same theme sometimes is sweet and soft and sometimes a call for war being exactly the same notes! (but a much different orchestration/arrangement).
That helps to keep the focus on the essence of the music better than any particular arrangement.
As anecdote, I had to change a bunch of tracks recently for this album
https://harmony-music.sourceaudio.com/#!explorer?b=4499824
mostly of these tracks were originally written as typical TV fantasy material but I was also exploring some minimalism by then, but Dan (the publisher) thought that these could do well in his flagship label as trailer music if rearranged. Well ended not so intimate, right? :D Funny thing is that I ended accustomed to both and liked them equally, the softer originals as well as the big trailer versions. It's like watching two different moments from the same movie


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## Carles (Dec 1, 2017)

Daryl said:


> Become the arranger. Some dodgy composer has given you a turd to deal with and you have to make something of it. Use your craft. It's not your music.


I think this is key (even if is your own music). There is let's say "inspiration" in one hand and -craft- in the other, so I think that the right approach should be "yes sir, I can deliver an epic version of it", "yes sir, I can deliver an intimate version of it", "yes sir, I can deliver a kids naive to bone version of it"...(as long as you know how to do that, of course )
I did finally replace some tracks from my example above because I thought these couldn't be "magnified". After the experience I know that also those could make it. It's just a matter of craft and re-arranging can be rather fun.


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## Rctec (Dec 2, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> HAHAHA! I'm sure it wasn't your fault! That Imax room at CityWalk was just set to KILL, not STUN. Like, pieces of the wall were being shaken loose. I guess that's a good testament to how much bottom end you, Benjamin, and Alan can pack into a track!
> 
> (I saw it again a week later at my local "normal" theater and it was not nearly so crazy.)
> 
> Maybe my old man ears are just getting a little worn out after so many NIN tours (and SAW movies).


Yes, you’re right. I was on tour when they dubbed it. And it was one of my favorite mix team. Totally solid and sensible. But... I saw it at The Kodak, and it was really good. Loud, full, wide - but not crazy. Or painful. (I actually monitor always at 85db and can’t stand when it gets too loud. Charlie, I’m sure you feel like i do: it’s not hard to write an action cue, it’s hard to listen to it all day while you’re writing...)
And it was in Atmos, not IMAX. I love, Love, Love IMAX, but it’s really hard to go from a ‘normal’ dub - that takes into account sub-woofers - to the IMAX full range systems (no subs, so you have to re-balance your whole bottom end). It’s basically a new dub. Something to keep in mind when you write... rumor has it that we blew up an IMAX Theatre with “Interstellar”. But that’s just a rumor  ...it might not have been such a good idea that the output stages of most of my analog synth have been modified to go down to 10hz... I’ll try to behave a little better in the future!


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Dec 2, 2017)

I'd like to warmly thank all of you for sharing your personnal experiences and advices. Lots of words of wisdom here !

Thank you so much.

Emmanuel


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## Nils Neumann (Dec 2, 2017)

Currently working on the 16th revision of a cue. Really hard not to get emotional^^


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## Rctec (Dec 2, 2017)

Nils Neumann said:


> Currently working on the 16th revision of a cue. Really hard not to get emotional^^


Look, I ended up doing 33 revisions on a cue once. We all knew it wasn’t the Music, but the scene came at the wrong point in the film. 3 week’s, not a lot of sleep, massive stress, solving the unsolvable...
A year after the film was released the filmmaker told me that they had quite rencently listened to my first version again, and they all agreed it was better, in fact perfect for the scene. “Sorry”. But, so what... I discovered a few new things, wrote better music in those 32 other versions. And the audience never noticed or cared which version we used. And to top it all off - the film was about an assistant film composer, so I was trying to pretent to write like... well, an assistant film composer.


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## Saxer (Dec 2, 2017)

If I'm not attached emotionally: why should I make music?

If I have a version ready I keep it. It's not like a painter who has to give away the results of the work. If I have to change something I work on a copy and cut big holes into the parts where changes has to be made. New game new luck. At the end I have more versions and can choose which one I like most. And the clients can have the versions they wanted. Unbelievable but true: the clients wishes are not always wrong!


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## charlieclouser (Dec 2, 2017)

Rctec said:


> It never is! That’s why I’m actually always greatful for someone to give me the opportunity to write something new and get better at it. I never keep old demos that didn’t make it into the film. I trash things constantly. I keep writing because I hope to one day actually write something I’m personally proud off. That doesn’t mean I just let crap come out of my room, it just means that I suspect with a bit more hard work and learning, I could get so much better. But you need to finish things and move on. Deadlines help!



I think a modified Heisenberg principle comes into play in my mind - every piece of music I do is simultaneously the greatest artistic work in musical history, and the worst piece of dreck that every dribbled out of a loudspeaker. The two states can and do coexist in the same time-space continuum.

So you can love a piece and still kiss it goodbye.


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## JohnG (Dec 2, 2017)

Rctec said:


> I hope to one day actually write something I’m personally proud of



I know how you feel. Every once in a while I stumble over an idea, or even a section of a piece, that makes me think, "hey, not bad." But then I go to choir rehearsal and sing something by maybe Buxtehude or Duruflé or Pärt or Byrd, which keeps one humble.


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## dgburns (Dec 2, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> Here's some of my favorite maxims to keep in mind:
> 
> 1 - "Sometimes a man will meet his destiny on the road he took to avoid it" - Jean de la Fontaine
> 
> ...



Wow, nice post. Things you wrote were somehow always in my head, just never vocalized.


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## Rv5 (Dec 2, 2017)

Deadlines are the key for me. Pragmatism and logistics have to take over becoming the focus, shifting attachment to the side; it's still there, just not blinding. Especially for personal projects as they never get released otherwise. Can someone give me some deadlines please?


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## Nils Neumann (Dec 2, 2017)

Rctec said:


> Look, I ended up doing 33 revisions on a cue once. We all knew it wasn’t the Music, but the scene came at the wrong point in the film. 3 week’s, not a lot of sleep, massive stress, solving the unsolvable...
> A year after the film was released the filmmaker told me that they had quite rencently listened to my first version again, and they all agreed it was better, in fact perfect for the scene. “Sorry”. But, so what... I discovered a few new things, wrote better music in those 32 other versions. And the audience never noticed or cared which version we used. And to top it all off - the film was about an assistant film composer, so I was trying to pretent to write like... well, an assistant film composer.


Glad that the pros have these struggles too


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## benatural (Dec 2, 2017)

Rctec said:


> Deadlines help!


I'd be lost without deadlines to be honest, I tend to flounder without them. I think they help directors too in a basic way now that I think about it. The fact that they see progress and that you've committed to the schedule helps put them at ease and gives them one less little thing to worry about, which is healthy for the relationship overall.

It's kind of hard to not be invested. As an artist, you're bare your soul and are extremely vulnerable when expressing yourself! It all boils down to trust, I work really hard to establish trust and rapport with the directors I work with and that helps to mitigate the "sting" that comes along with rejection because we've established a "safe" environment where the flow of ideas remains on the table.

It's all about having a conversation with the folks you're collaborating with. I work on games and I find the best way to illustrate a cue is to implement the music and show it in the context of the game itself and have the director play the game to get a feel for it, rather than play the music for them in a vacuum. If the game doesn't have other sound effects like ambiences or even footsteps, I'll temp those in to make the game feel more complete. Then when they have feedback, it's in context and directly relates to the music as it pertains to the experience, and now we're using the same vocabulary to discuss what our goals are and I have something actionable to address. It's not foolproof but I've found it helps the discussion a ton.

Which is all to say, yes it's difficult to not feel attached to the music you write. Nothing stings more than being so convinced that what you've created is great only to have someone disagree. Music is such a subjective thing, everyone has different tastes and backgrounds. Even mood influences how we perceive music, and sometimes it's just impossible for that to not influence opinions when evaluating music.

Unexpected feedback isn't something you ever grow 100% used to, but I've found that you eventually learn tools that help to cope with the emotions that come with the territory!


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## charlieclouser (Dec 2, 2017)

Rv5 said:


> Deadlines are the key for me.



This is absolutely the case for me as well. 

After all, the scope of possibilities in music is infinite - the scope of appropriate approaches for any specific musical situation only slightly less so. 

A deadline looming in the distance is a strong motivator to evaluate which approaches merit further exploration.

A deadline that has become imminent, as opposed to just looming, is an even stronger motivator to evaluate, in the strictest possible terms, which approaches merit attempts at completion.


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## charlieclouser (Dec 2, 2017)

The Patty Duke, the wrench, and then I bust the tango
I got more rhymes than Jamaica got mangos
I got a peg leg on the end of my stump-ah
*Shake your rump-ah*

Bwaaaoooooooo-bwao-bwo-bwa-bo-bwa-bo-bwo-bwa-ba-bwao"


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## gregh (Dec 2, 2017)

It is natural to feel hurt when someone trivialises or rubbishes work you have put a great deal of effort into. This applies to anything, not just creative work. As far as professional practice is concerned, the quicker you can make the transition from feeling hurt and or defensive to problem solving "how is this piece not working, what can be done to improve it" etc etc, the happier you will be and the better you will be to work with.
This is a skill you can learn once you realise that the initial emotional response is quite natural but counter productive if sustained. Practice recognising you have gone in that emotional mode, see it as transitory and just another emotion, and move on to problem solving mode. The more often you practice this as a considered strategy the less of a hold your natural emotional response will have.




charlieclouser said:


> I think a modified Heisenberg principle comes into play in my mind - every piece of music I do is simultaneously the greatest artistic work in musical history, and the worst piece of dreck that every dribbled out of a loudspeaker. The two states can and do coexist in the same time-space continuum.



Only talking the other day about how this has got me in trouble - I wrote a quartet for a live broadcast on Radio Bartok in Hungary and the ensemble were really excited about it (their first "ultra" modern sounding commission). Got good applause from the studio audience etc but all I could hear were areas I would improve, which I foolishly mentioned too soon and hurt the feelings of the performers. I still feel terrible about it, but a good lesson for me that sometimes it is not all about improvement and a sort of ruthless focus but also feeling good about where you are in the moment and being happy for everyone involved


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## charlieclouser (Dec 3, 2017)

The Beastie Boys are pretty much the pinnacle of unrestrained musical exuberance. No second-guessing, no self-doubt, no shame. Awesome.


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## Mornats (Dec 3, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> The Beastie Boys are pretty much the pinnacle of unrestrained musical exuberance. No second-guessing, no self-doubt, no shame. Awesome.



I saw them live in Manchester over here in the UK on their Hello Nasty tour. They can pull that shit off live too. Awesome is indeed the word.


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## sazema (Dec 3, 2017)




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## NoamL (Dec 3, 2017)

I agree with Greg about how others trivializing our work can feel hurtful. On the other hand other people have a perspective on my music that I can never have. I often wish I could do a quick "piano test" with other composers on my music.

Here's what I mean by that...

This evening I was transcribing some trailer tracks. For each track I listened to it and, _*as soon as it ended*_, I'd hammer out the basic harmony and melody at the piano. And keep in mind these are trailer tracks so it's an 8 bar progression at most, with slow large-note melodies, really basic and triadic harmonies, and repeated 3 or 4 times just with exponentially bigger orchestration each time. So this wasn't and shouldn't have been difficult; I got about 30 transcriptions done in a few hours.

And yet, some tracks I was instantly able to figure out, while others I had to reload the track and noodle around the piano in real time to figure it out. It's _*not*_ that those pieces were more difficult in any way. It was just that some pieces and melodies "stuck" in my head and others didn't.

Keeping things anonymous, here is one trailer tune that immediately stuck in my head:








Here is another, by the same composer, that I had much more trouble with. Notice how there's nothing theoretically more difficult about the melody or harmonies, indeed they're much the same as the other track:






It's just that the first one is a solid-as-hell melody. It has scalar motion, leaping motion, and turnarounds, all in the right proportions and places. You could also say that the first 2 measures is the "recipe" for the melody and the whole 8 bars evolves logically out of it. It creates this beautiful storybook feeling because the 2nd and 3rd time you hear this melody, it's like you're singing a song or telling a fable, you already know all the "steps" and you know where you are in relation to a mental map of the whole thing.

The second one, IMO, is harder to hold in my head. There's not an easy "Recipe" that governs the entire melody. Even the 4th and 5th time I was playing it alongside the track I was still stumbling around the piano, in particular the difference between measure 2 and measure 6 kept throwing me.

They are both strong ideas of course! But I found it fascinating how one idea stuck with me so much more. It would be interesting if anyone here disagreed and considered the 2nd melody better.

In any case, I've had this experience personally working as a junior composer. I would submit track ideas to another composer and sometimes he immediately would get going with it at the piano and other times he was like "How does that go again?" The second scenario was usually a bad sign.

You can even see this in action in @mverta 's open master classes, the ones where he burns through 100 music submissions in 6 hours. Sometimes he is instantly able to place the melody & harmony under his fingers after only hearing a track once!

Writing something that is* "accessible"* (that sneer word used by so many music critics against commercial film music) is so hard. Because "accessible" actually means something that is instantly understandable and meaningful, yet not cliche or unoriginal or a cheap "sideways" of a million-dollar track everyone's heard already.

If you write something that isn't totally trivial, yet someone else can pick it out at the piano quickly, that's a sign of a really strong idea I think.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Dec 3, 2017)

@NoamL : The first melody clearly is more memorable !

Everything seems clear and predictible (in a good way) in the first one. The second one maybe has too much rythmic differences (between bars 2&6 and 4&8), that make the pattern less "readable". We can also see that the general organization of the melody is clearer in the first one : every bar is ascending except bars 2 & 4. The second melody is somehow more confuse : Down, static, up, down, down, down, up, up.

Other difference : the second melody is only made of chord tones, whereas the first one has passing tones that make the whole progression more singable.


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## Phillip (Dec 4, 2017)

Analize Mozart, Bach, Beethoven etc instead of trailer music. Then YOUR music will be analized by others.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Dec 4, 2017)

Phillip said:


> Analize Mozart, Bach, Beethoven etc instead of trailer music. Then YOUR music will be analized by others.



Let's all study Bach and become famous then. Where do we sign ?


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## NoamL (Dec 4, 2017)

Phillip said:


> Analize Mozart, Bach, Beethoven etc instead of trailer music. Then YOUR music will be analized by others.



Bach himself did not follow your advice. He eagerly studied and transcribed Vivaldi & Telemann, both of whom were pretty Remote-Control-Productions-esque for their day.


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## Phillip (Dec 4, 2017)

What about Palestrina?


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## Paul Grymaud (Dec 4, 2017)




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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 4, 2017)

Rctec said:


> I can’t not care. I have to have a serious emotional connection to the project - and sometimes it might not be the film itself, but the musicians or the film-makers. But if I don’t care, I’m just wasting my life.



I hear what you're saying, but having a serious emotional attachment to such projects is not going to help you in any way. You are hired to write what the director/producer wants, not what you feel a personal connection to. Of course you should care about what leaves your studio, but you shouldn't have to sink your heart and soul into something hat will probably never be fully appreciated (it's too mentally draining). This is only my opinion of course. Also, never ever trash anything...there's always a "gold nugget" in there somewhere. At very least, polish up old demos and upload them to a library track website; I have actually had a lot of music licenced this way. The biggest thing I've learned over the years is that I needed a thick skin. Without that, you'll just be disappointed and will take rejection personally.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 4, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> This is absolutely the case for me as well.
> 
> After all, the scope of possibilities in music is infinite - the scope of appropriate approaches for any specific musical situation only slightly less so.
> 
> ...



Same here. And the crazy thing is, as the deadline approaches, the clock seems to tick faster and pulling a few all-nighters become insanely easy. I don't have a lot of those, but have had my fair share. Ironically, some of my best work has come out of those sessions.


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## JacquesMathias (Dec 4, 2017)

whitewasteland said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Lately I've been working on a track where I had a lot of hesitations. I decided to ask my Jedi master @NoamL for his good advices, as I knew he would listen to the track with a fresh ear and would probably give me some helpful suggestions.
> 
> ...



When I am ghost writing or writing pop strings/brass arrangements it’s quite easy to get a wider and clearer vision. Well, basically trying to please whoever hired me, however, how am I supposed to collaborate if I am not “into the vibe”? I must feel in order to decide what path I am taking, even though on these types of gigs it’s easier to not get depressed and frustrated with my weaknesses. 


In the other hand, when I’m writing my own stuff, I literally glue myself with the track. I don’t like overly analyzing others composer’s music, because it’s usually way better than my own stuff, and that gets me emotionally unstable, instead I try to quickly listen to whatever the references are (I do library music), and force myself to come up with something that has my finger print. 

When writing emotional stuff, I will go even further, grabbing from my own personal tragedies the visceral matter, and that is usually what gets me going really fast.


Honestly, in my humble opinion, pain (doing, redoing, fishing for ideas, getting frustrated, sad, depressed) is the basic matter we’re creating our music from. It’s unavoidable. Maybe I am just a masochist.

Anyway, I totally get your point.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Dec 4, 2017)

Hi @JacquesMathias , I guess we all feel the same, even if we have different ways to deal with it 

I think you're a brillant composer btw. FXPansion's BFD2 was my first virtual instrument - long before I dived into composing - and I was absolutely blown away by your demos ! You are my oldest "I-want-to-do-like-this-guy" moment (don't take this the wrong way, ahah)


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## jonathanprice (Dec 4, 2017)

To add to what @Daryl and @JohnG have said, working with two hats and gaining perspective has been key for me. I am definitely emotionally attached to my music, but not as a creator...as a _listener_. My first hat is a well of ideas and constructions, then I switch hats and listen to what I've done as if someone else has written it. I used to have a mantra when I worked as a recording engineer: "This is the first time I've heard this." I use it for composition now as well. I compartmentalize the "I made this!" feeling, because the joy of creation is not something you experience when you listen to other people's music. You don't let that influence your taste in others' music, so you can't let it influence how you listen to your own music. If you like what you hear it's because somebody (maybe you, maybe somebody else) just wrote something you like. If you don't like what you hear, you're in a privileged position to make changes.


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## lux (Dec 4, 2017)

For me it largely depends on the situation. I personally find myself more inclined to be emotively attached when dealing with scoring to picture, due to an instinctive early approach, which I tend to refine, more rationally, at a later point. Sometimes you get in love with the scene, the actors, the characters, it's just so natural, and moving at times.

When writing without picture I feel I'm slightly less attached. Probably because I miss the "in-a-relationship" part of dealing with a story and people.


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## JacquesMathias (Dec 4, 2017)

whitewasteland said:


> Hi @JacquesMathias , I guess we all feel the same, even if we have different ways to deal with it
> 
> I think you're a brillant composer btw. FXPansion's BFD2 was my first virtual instrument - long before I dived into composing - and I was absolutely blown away by your demos ! You are my oldest "I-want-to-do-like-this-guy" moment (don't take this the wrong way, ahah)


Thanks, man!  Those were pure fun to do!


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## Rv5 (Dec 4, 2017)

Quite an apt visualisation of the deadline effect:


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## shomynik (Dec 4, 2017)

Beautiful thread! Enjoyed it a lot! This community is really something special, I feel so much richer being part of it.

On the point...There were plenty of wise advices so I will just share my thoughts. Never actually happened to me. I do attach emotionaly a lot, but not to a specific notes but rather to an idea, a place where it's coming from, mood, atmosphere, scene... Give me a reason and I will fiddle with the track endlessly. Heck, I don't need a reason from anybody, I got them plenty. Although I love another point of view, I'm having my wife (a hobbyist musician) listening to the work in progress all the time. Don't think I ever finish the track, only settle coz of the deadline. Though always trying to settle higher than the last time.

It's just that music is so vast, since I was 7 I never stopped being intimidated by it... so I always have a feeling it could be better, that I have to search more or learn to do it better, OR at least 'what would happen if I change this, what a wonderfully different thing could it become' haha...all...the...time xD

So, unless the save feature doesn't work, I don't see a reason not to mess it up while nobody's looking!!!  

Best,
Milos


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## germancomponist (Dec 7, 2017)

Rctec said:


> I write incredibly slowly. And I procrastinate by being on this forum or spending days programming synth sounds.


Salut, Sir!


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## Strezov (Dec 18, 2017)

Stumbled across this topic... my wife constantly makes fun of me when I'm listening to my own music - often I say stuff like "Did I write this???" or "oh my, this sucks, I don't remember doing that...". I always get very emotionally attached to something I write but I find that sometimes stressful deadlines (mostly TV) make me forget about my emotions and just focus on finishing the music. And later on I find that I have no attachment to those tracks literally because of having no time to think about it. Sometimes I like the results, sometimes I don't. 
I had lots of time three years ago when I did a local feature... spent so much time on my first version (which IMO was the best option) that rewriting the WHOLE soundtrack 3-4 times made me hate the movie and the final soundtrack. But being open to stuff like rewriting and talking with directors is what gets work at my doorstep in my country, so it has its own perks


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## RRBE Sound (Dec 19, 2017)

I think it is about consensus! - You have to provide the argumentation and make the people you work with understand why you think the music you wrote for the project is great and what attachments you have to it. And likewise, you have to understand their perspective.

This the can or should result in both parties being content with the final ''product''.

I am not sure if I am correct, but my assumption might offer some guidance..? 

All the best
Rune


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## ColonelMarquand (Dec 22, 2017)

I don't get emotionally arrached in the first place. I have quite a lot of Austrian and German ancestry and that helps a lot.
I say stuff like 'did I actually write this?' to my wife and she says, 'yes, I'm very much afraid you did' and that type of thing. I don't worry about it.


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## Pixelee (Dec 23, 2017)

I detached myself away from the "artist" side of things as I wanted to do music as a living. I am simply pleasing the client and don't feel that even 10 revisions, it isn't my craft. Anything they ask you to change, it is still you who is making the direction, so I do not get emotionally attached to a certain track that needs some changes.

Yes it is a product and art at the same time. There are always compromises. I am not the centre of the project and everything is a team effort. I can't get anywhere if I am too stubborn with my own artistic approach.

Edit: I think I went off on a tangent..


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