# 91. Academy Awards Best Original Score



## bachader

I'm suprised no one has commented on this. Congratulations to Ludwig Göransson. Has anyone got the details of the voter profiles? Is this somewhat a transformation about what we call a soundtrack? A fan of James Newton Howard, I always find it a bit surprising that he never won one.


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## Reid Rosefelt

I like that somebody can score a student short for his friend Ryan Coogler and then go on to compose "Fruitvale Station," "Creed," and win the Academy Award for "Black Panther."

Of course, Göransson has racked up an impressive set of film and TV credits over the past ten years without Coogler. But I like it when there are these artistic relationships that sustain between filmmakers and composers, like Hans Zimmer and Christopher Nolan and Kenneth Branagh and Patrick Doyle, etc. People grow together as artists.


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## patrick76

I think it was a weak year. Best score for Black Panther... I mean I can think of several super hero movies with much better scores that (I think) were never even nominated ...Batman (Elfman's and Zimmer/Newton-Howard's). I don't know, I just think of all the incredible scores that never won like Shawshank Redemption, Gladiator, Harry Potter, and on and on and on and I can't help comparing those works to Black Panther... and in my opinion it just doesn't compare. Maybe it was the best score of the year, I haven't heard many from 2018..


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## Drundfunk

I can't even remember the score of Black Panther. Ludwig Göransson is a talented guy for sure, but I have a strong feeling that all these Oscar nominations and wins for Black Panther are more of political nature than an actual assessment of the craft. On the other hand I don't think I've watched one movie or listened to any of the other scores nominated so who knows, maybe it was the best.


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## JohnG

Horner won two Academy Awards.

@Drundfunk Given that you "can't even remember the score" and "don't think I've watched one movie or listened to any of the other scores nominated," perhaps insinuating that it won solely for political, racial reasons is a weak gambit? With what you admit is nearly zero information, you leap to that? 

It was a very unusual movie that caught the imagination of millions of people. The score also is very unusual, especially for an action score; there's a certain amount of "generic" that goes along with much action music and I think he avoided a lot of that. Why shouldn't it deserve a win?


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## Land of Missing Parts

I haven't payed a lot of attention to scores this year, but did happen to check out Black Panther. I think it's a smart score containing some clear and well-developed themes, and a lot of interesting work with instruments to distinguish the different settings and characters. I can listen to it apart from the movie and still get a lot of story from it. Also, when I was watching Ant Man and the Wasp I remember being struck by Christophe Beck's clever score to that.


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## babylonwaves

Göransson surprised me last year. But it wasn't Black Panther (which just wasn't for me), it was the OST to Venom I found very inspiring. And yes, James Newton Howard deserves one (for Michael Clayton please  and first and foremost John Powell.


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## jonathanparham

Drundfunk said:


> I can't even remember the score of Black Panther. Ludwig Göransson is a talented guy for sure, but I have a strong feeling that all these Oscar nominations and wins for Black Panther are more of political nature than an actual assessment of the craft. On the other hand I don't think I've watched one movie or listened to any of the other scores nominated so who knows, maybe it was the best.


ok, I'll bite. When has an award show not been political? lol. I saw Black Panther a few times and liked the score. I feel like Black Panther and Silvestre's Main Avenger theme are the few marvel movie musics I actually 'remember'. And by remember I mean I can 'hum' you the music. In Black Panther, T'challas theme may seem basic but it's a melody I can remember and everytime he as on the screen; that motif was there. 
Regarding other nominations, I also liked Isle of Dogs soundtrack and the wonderful 'chamber' sound of 'If Beale Street could talk'. I actually thought 'If Beale Street could talk' would win.
Also, though there's some story controversy with the family, I thought the pianist/transcriber for Green Book was good. Hollywood Reporter has a nice short interview online. The composer Kris Bowers transcribed Shirly's music, wrote new music, and then hand doubled for some of the onscreen performances. In my opinion, bowers should have gotten an honorable mention lol


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## Satorious

I've seen Black Panther and I can't even remember any of it - was just typical slam-bam mickey-mousing Marvel fare. To me this was nothing more than a PC point scoring exercise. One score which gave me chills and I felt was criminally overlooked was Justin Hurwitz's First Man - it didn't even get a nomination!


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## bachader

> Horner won two Academy Awards.



I didnt get your reference to Horner. You mean JNH?



> The score also is very unusual, especially for an action score; there's a certain amount of "generic" that goes along with much action music and I think he avoid ....



Dear @JohnG, thats exactly what I was asking up front, what makes it unusual, original and worthy of award? Below is the soundtrack.

Black Panther OST


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## Nick Batzdorf

Three things are simultaneously true:

1. I don't know about this particular award. But there's no question that the Academy is doing its best to project "diversity" after the outcry over the lack of it a couple of years ago.

2. "Political" is a *terrible* word for that! Racism and the lack of diversity are very real - even in show biz, that bastion of intellectuals with transcendent morals.

3. In my opinion, two years ago (or three?) - the year of the outcry - unfortunately there really were no major films with black people in them (or about civil rights themes) that deserved "best in category" awards. This year we haven't seen all the films, but we saw every one of them that year.


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## givemenoughrope

The only film (of the half dozen that the Oscars was basically a huge commercial for) that I saw out of the bunch was Black Klansman and that was abysmal. (I want to see The Favorite but not bc of the Oscar push but bc I live YL’s films back to Dogtooth.) If these are the caliber of films “capturing people’s imaginations” then their imaginations are in a sad state. Probably bc of the internet and pesticides or something. 

I think we all know but don’t want to admit that Hollywood (the idea) has been over for a long time now. Fine with me.


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## Nick Batzdorf

I really liked Black Klansman.

But not as much as Vice, Bohemian Rhapsody, Roma, or Green Book - probably in that order.


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## Harzmusic

bachader said:


> Dear @JohnG, thats exactly what I was asking up front, what makes it unusual, original and worthy of award? Below is the soundtrack.


The link you posted is not all Black Panther, if I hear correctly. There seems to be a lot of random generic trailer music thrown in there by the uploader. This appears to be a fake video uploaded for views.
Check out the actual soundtrack on spotify or something similar. There is nice thematic development and a buttload of unusual cultural influences throughout the score.

I didn't give much attention to the score before, but having listened carfully to the album today I don't think it is a bad choice from the academy.


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## givemenoughrope

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I really liked Black Klansman.
> 
> But not as much as Vice, Bohemian Rhapsody, Roma, or Green Book - probably in that order.



I also want to see Vice and Roma (even though Im not really big on those directors).

I definitely went into BK with expectations, hoping for more of a caper. The premise is pretty great. There were elements and moments that I liked but overall the weird and uneven pacing baffled me and the ending just seemed like they gave up. Curious to know what you liked about it though. I’d try it again too. I don’t really have much faith in SL as a director anymore though. And the music...? TB is a seriously heavy musician. It seems like he was obviously limited here (that same riff in every transition, cmon).


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## Guy Rowland

I'm the inverse givemeenoughrope - loathed, just loathed The Favourite, but did like BlackKklansmen, Roma and Vice. The three best films of the year for my money got precisely zero nominations between them all - The Hate U Give, Leave No Trace and Tully. The Wife very close behind. The absurdly narrow range of film's feted with nods seems to get more absurd with each passing year. The Academy may be broadening its range of voters, but I'm not sure their collective judgement is getting any better.

Score wise, I really liked Brittel's work in Vice, and look forward to seeing and hearing Beale Street.


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## Nick Batzdorf

givemenoughrope said:


> I also want to see Vice and Roma (even though Im not really big on those directors).



You didn't like The Big Short? I think Adam McKay is great, and this is even better! Vice is really clever - as good a film as I've seen.



givemenoughrope said:


> Curious to know what you liked about it though.



The best answer I can give is that I was thinking about the film after I saw it, an indication that it grabbed me.

But I was thinking about Roma for a couple of days after seeing it.


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## Nick Batzdorf

Guy Rowland said:


> Score wise, I really liked Brittel's work in Vice



It's really fresh, i'nit.


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## givemenoughrope

You know, I did kinda like The Big Short but mostly bc of the performances by CB, BP and whoever played the two start up guys. What the hell do I know though..


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## Vin

Ludwig Göransson is a great composer - very versatile guy:



However, my favourite 2018 score wasn't even nominated (_Annihilation_ by Geoff Barrow & Ben Salisbury), so I was quite indifferent to it.


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## bachader

Thanks. Sorry for the link. I edited it. So, thematic development and cultural motives then?



Harzmusic said:


> The link you posted is not all Black Panther, if I hear correctly. There seems to be a lot of random generic trailer music thrown in there by the uploader. This appears to be a fake video uploaded for views.
> Check out the actual soundtrack on spotify or something similar. There is nice thematic development and a buttload of unusual cultural influences throughout the score.
> 
> I didn't give much attention to the score before, but having listened carfully to the album today I don't think it is a bad choice from the academy.


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## brenneisen

bachader said:


> I'm suprised no one has commented on this.



because it sucks


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## Nick Batzdorf

I still say we're all just scratching the surface compared to Jeff Beale's music for House of Cards.

It's not a theatrical release, but he is *so* good.


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## givemenoughrope

JB’s HOC cards is one of the only scores giving me hope. Easily better than the show imo also.


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## Harzmusic

bachader said:


> Thanks. Sorry for the link. I edited it. So, thematic development and cultural motives then?



Yeah, at least for me that's something I like about it.
Love the unusual percussion and vocal parts. It's nothing I'm gonna listen to a lot, but I wouldn't say it's a regular generic Marvel-score.
Sure, there are the big epic orchestral parts, but then he does stuff like this:


I dig that.


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## bachader

brenneisen said:


> because it sucks



You are probably right. Obviously, we should have discussed the nominees before the awards.

Black Panther was released 1 year ago and has become one of the most popular movies last year. It is interesting that no one has mentioned about the originality, thematic development or unusual nature of its OST for a year.


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## gsilbers

imo anytime a score thats not a traditional score ala williams/powells etc wins seems to stir these traditional vs non traditional scoring discussions. 

i liked the score. i remember very vividly the distored 808 kick drum throughout the bad guy's scene. which totally goes with the storyline; he comes from urban/ghetto style area in the US and an 808 drum for hiphop is a must.. but he made it sound totally badass distored like that, thus giving the character a great theme sound since he was the baddass taking over the throne. 
then of course the african sounds w/o making it sound cheesy and the traditional orchestra thorughout the emotional context and action with theme development. 
and thats the sound of that movie. with a different composer doing only traditional orchestra it might of sounded too generic superhero and awash with tyler bates/brian tyler/etc and not be unique or diferent to other movies of the same genre. Or going all the way african might of been too cheesy for audiences.


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## Harzmusic

bachader said:


> It is interesting that no one has mentioned about the originality, thematic development or unusual nature of its OST for a year.


I think many weren't expecting anything of a marvel score anymore, so they weren't paying attention to it. I know that's what I did. I still didn't watch the movie because I am tired of superheroes.


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## paularthur

I lovelovelove the talking drums on the score & Baaba Maal's vocals on the Wakanda theme!


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## Uncle Peter

Congratulations to Ludwig


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## patrick76

Guy Rowland said:


> Score wise, I really liked Brittel's work in Vice, and look forward to seeing and hearing Beale Street.


I am really enjoying the score to Vice. Thank you for mentioning it as I had not previously listened to it.


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## Parsifal666

JohnG said:


> Horner won two Academy Awards.
> 
> @Drundfunk Given that you "can't even remember the score" and "don't think I've watched one movie or listened to any of the other scores nominated," perhaps insinuating that it won solely for political, racial reasons is a weak gambit? With what you admit is nearly zero information, you leap to that?
> 
> It was a very unusual movie that caught the imagination of millions of people. The score also is very unusual, especially for an action score; there's a certain amount of "generic" that goes along with much action music and I think he avoided a lot of that. Why shouldn't it deserve a win?



I think the political card played was pretty lame as well.

I thought both the movie story and score were warmed over. Not impressed with either. But I haven't really thought too much of any scores since Morricone's last Oscar winner, really. I'm an old school dude (like no one could tell).

I *love* BP with the Avengers (andthe comic, been reading since the 70s).


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## Eric G

Satorious said:


> I've seen Black Panther and I can't even remember any of it - was just typical slam-bam mickey-mousing Marvel fare. To me this was nothing more than a PC point scoring exercise. One score which gave me chills and I felt was criminally overlooked was Justin Hurwitz's First Man - it didn't even get a nomination!




Are you kidding me? That track is the DEFINITION of forgettable. Did anyone go see that movie?
Ludwig did win a GRAMMY for the Black Panther Score also. Don't hide behind the POLITICAL BS. Just say you didn't like the score and be done with it.

Every award is a reflection or a "sign" of the times. Music from the 70's, 80's and 90's etc... won awards because they spoke to what was happening at that time. Artist in tune with the times have a better chance to win awards. I thought that was obvious.


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## Nick Batzdorf

It's hard being a pimp.


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## ionian

Of course it's political - it's hollyweird. They're all too petrified not to throw black panther some kind of bone lest they have to deal with some kind of massive outcry today.


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## Eric G

ionian said:


> Of course it's political - it's hollyweird. They're all too petrified not to throw black panther some kind of bone lest they have to deal with some kind of massive outcry today.



Seems like its only selectively "political" based on who won. Your choice wins. Good choice. Not your choice its political.


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## NoamL

gsilbers said:


> imo anytime a score thats not a traditional score ala williams/powells etc wins seems to stir these traditional vs non traditional scoring discussions.



_Gravity_ won 5 years ago so it's not like the Oscars are super biased to traditional scoring.

I think the Oscars just don't have a very good voting system. The *entire* Academy gets to vote on every award? That makes no sense to me. What qualifies Brad Pitt to decide which film had the best costumes? What qualifies Hans Zimmer to decide who the best actor was? It is even less appropriate with the editing and scoring Oscars since those elements of a film are _meant_ to make a subconscious impact. A typical audience would only consciously notice the craft of editing in a movie where it's deliberately foregrounded. Movies like _Baby Driver_ or _The Big Short_ getting nominated for Best Editing demonstrates that well.

It seems the scoring Oscar sometimes ends up being one more prize on the pile when the Academy wants to heavily reward a particular film. Sometimes this is merited like _Lord Of The Rings's_ sweep, and sometimes it ends up more like _The Imitation Game_ or _Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. 
_
The film score Oscars should be decided by composers. And there should be more nominations, and only a single round of voting. Invite all the nominees and reveal on the night which film got the most nominations. That would preserve the award ceremony drama while also not letting the Academy throw Black Panther a prize just because they're scared of more #OscarsSoWhite backlash.

The fact that BP & Wonder Woman are two of the most successful superhero films EVER in their respective franchises, is doing more for diversity anyway, than a bunch of lame award-show buzz. Studios chase money not statuettes.


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## jonathanparham

patrick76 said:


> I am really enjoying the score to Vice. Thank you for mentioning it as I had not previously listened to it.


The music of Beale street hits me before the images and the dialogue. Perhaps that's just the edit though. The characters don't talk but walk and gaze. All the while, the music is prominent.
I honestly enjoyed all the best score nominations. I think they served their projects well.


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## handz

The Oscars are worse and worse. The Score for BP was not worthy of winning at all, I have to listen to it again today, and nope, this is absolutely forgettable material.


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## handz

ionian said:


> Of course it's political - it's hollyweird. They're all too petrified not to throw black panther some kind of bone lest they have to deal with some kind of massive outcry today.


Well, this year it was more obvious than ever, and what movie has a better disposition to show how they love people of other colors than white than a movie with a "black" in his title. The fact that this was even nominated for the BEST MOVIE is absolutely insane...


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## jtnyc

handz said:


> The Oscars are worse and worse. The Score for BP was not worthy of winning at all, I have to listen to it again today, and nope, this is absolutely forgettable material.



I agree. So generic. Much of it sounds like sample library demos and drum loops. Maybe it's real, but the overall sound and feel is typical, modern, cookie cutter action music. Maybe it served the movie just fine, I didn't see it, but man... best soundtrack? I don't know...


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## JohnG

jtnyc said:


> I agree. So generic. Much of it sounds like sample library demos and drum loops. Maybe it's real, but the overall sound and feel is typical, modern, cookie cutter action music. Maybe it served the movie just fine, I didn't see it, but man... best soundtrack? I don't know...



I flatly disagree. I thought the score went way out of its way to avoid -- as far as possible -- the tropes that have become monotonous. 

There is a certain degree of obviousness (for lack of a better word) with _any_ action score, especially for a movie that aims at large scale and a mass audience. I've written a lot of action music and it's really hard not to sound just like someone else.

I'm not saying this broke the mould for all time but, if those drum parts sound like loops to you, I'd like to know where you get them.


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## Michael Stibor

jtnyc said:


> I agree. So generic. Much of it sounds like sample library demos and drum loops. Maybe it's real, but the overall sound and feel is typical, modern, cookie cutter action music. Maybe it served the movie just fine, I didn't see it, but man... best soundtrack? I don't know...


I mean, good for the composer. He seemed like a good guy, and is obviously having a better career than I am (which is really not saying much ), but yeah, overall I thought it was pretty generic. But well suited for the film. I thought If Beale Street Could talk should've won.


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## sIR dORT

Aside from the politics discussion (I'm very political, but lets keep that to the political forum, shall we? ), I think that the only unique part of the score was the drums, like in the beginning of the movie when they go into Wakanda through the portal thing. Otherwise, I agree that it's generic, but I also agree that all action films have some degree of that genericness. I do and don't like that, but I don't think the score was unique enough from other action scores (and in general frankly).

It's subjective though. One guy may say "that did a great job of being original yet telling the story properly," while the other might say "that was unoriginal, and although it told the story decently, it wasn't very compelling from a music perspective." Whatya gonna do?


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## Michael Stibor

NoamL said:


> _Gravity_ won 5 years ago so it's not like the Oscars are super biased to traditional scoring.


The Academy tries to hard to be cool when it comes to Best Song and Best Score. The problem is these people are far from cool. Did you see them all dancing to Queen at the beginning? Do you want _those_ people choosing Best Score? 
That's why Gravity won (over Newman and Williams no less). That's why The Social Network won. And that's why Black Panther won. They're trying to make up for the fact that they always pick the Best Picture winner as if it was chosen by ninety year olds. So they go with what they think the 'kids are into these days' with the music categories.


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## NoamL

The talking drums were cool.


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## Eric G

Ludwig Göransson showed respect for African culture by imbuing the work with performances from African artists like Baaba Maal. This video showed some of his composition/production process for those who care.


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## brek

It's a great score, deserving of being called "Best." But as has been pointed out, most voters have little idea what makes a great score. So they are swayed by things that are peripheral to the score itself. In this case (and many others over the years), there was a great story that went along with the score. To the voters, it's almost incidental that Goransson came out of his Africa trip with some authentic and phenomenal music. 
Anecdotally, this is the only score I saw getting talked about outside of "film music" circles. 

The voters are immersed in Hollywood culture and a good plot is more compelling than a good score - and that has nothing to do with politics.

One other thing. I don't know if this is unique to music, but there does seem to be a tendency to reward scores for being unique or authentic rather than virtuostic. Does someone get rewarded for reinventing the way acting or VFX is done? The art and craft are both important, but interesting how much the Academy has favored "art" in picking score winners and nominees. Maybe it's because giving it to John Williams every year isn't a very compelling storyline.


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## jonathanparham

NoamL said:


> The talking drums were cool.


even before I saw a 'behind the score' interview, I was like, 'I think the drums are trying to say the hero's name T'challa'. Sure enough, Goransson in an interview asked the drummers what that sound would be; And that's what it was.


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## jonathanparham

NoamL said:


> _Gravity_ won 5 years ago so it's not like the Oscars are super biased to traditional scoring.


I'm glad you mentioned that film. I saw that film in the theaters, enjoyed it, but at first, completely forgot about the score. I thought to myself, 'I don't remember the music, I remember lots of sound design.' BUT then I took time, especially after its Oscar win, to go back and listen to the album. I didn't study it but I put in my regular rotation of listened tracks. From the Soundtrack, 'ISS' and Aningaaq became two of my favorite relaxation tracks. The music wasn't my style, but it was a reminder to not only appreciate different compositional styles and learn just how does this kind of soundtrack get put together.


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## Drundfunk

JohnG said:


> @Drundfunk Given that you "can't even remember the score" and "don't think I've watched one movie or listened to any of the other scores nominated," perhaps insinuating that it won solely for political, racial reasons is a weak gambit? With what you admit is nearly zero information, you leap to that?



First of all, memorability is a good indicator. Also it is more of a phrase than an actual statement which common sense should dictate. Also it doesn't mean that you only remember melody or harmony in particular, there are many things one can remember about music. I definitely know my own opinion I formed while watching this movie. Second, it is not a secret that the academy is extremely afraid not to cater to minorities since the backlash they received two years ago. Alone that Black Panther was nominated for Best Movie is an utter joke (I'm a Marvel fan btw. I watch all of those movies, but I'm also not delusional). In fact the whole "cult" following this film is just ridiculous. Third, I never said my statement is factual. In fact I left open the possibility that I am wrong with my assumption, but just by assessing all facts there are I will stand by this statement. It's not necessarily essential to know all the other scores, since there is a whole history of nominees and winners for Best Score (since 1935 or something like that) which one can use to assess if this score is worthy of being called "Best Score" or not. And no, I don't think that it is a weak gambit. Common sense tells me that's exactly what happened.


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## re-peat

JNH's 'Red Sparrow' is one of the best things I've heard, film-scoring-wise, in recent times and certainly my top choice of last year.

_


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## jonathanparham

re-peat said:


> JNH's 'Red Sparrow' is one of the best things I've heard, film-scoring-wise, in recent times and certainly my top choice of last year.
> 
> _


oh yeah. Forgot about that film.


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## bachader

Dialog from Green Book. To what extent should the unusual be favored? I think art, which is too subjective by nature, should be not be favored against the craft of film scoring. I am not even sure the sound design should be considered a part of the scoring process. Traditional instrumentation has proved to be successful in different historical periods, geographies. Star Wars didn't need a fully synth sound to be compatible with the space nor did the score of Lawrence of Arabia need fully ethnic sounds.


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## Eric G

brek said:


> I don't know if this is unique to music, but there does seem to be a tendency to reward scores for being unique or authentic rather than virtuostic. .



I agree with you 100%.


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## Living Fossil

NoamL said:


> What qualifies Brad Pitt to decide which film had the best costumes? What qualifies Hans Zimmer to decide who the best actor was?



I can't answer the Brad Pitt part of the question, but I'm quite sure that HZ is extremely competent when it comes to judge the quality of an actor.
Because the acting has a crucial impact on the music you would write for that person in that movie.
(e.g. take a look at "As good as it gets"/J. Nicholson)
Multiply it with decades of experience... 
(Same goes for developing a sense for the editing, locations etc.... as a composer for film you're permanently confronted with these aspects because they influence your work.)



NoamL said:


> The talking drums were cool.



That was my impression too.
They remained in my memory weeks and months after having seen the film. 
In fact, they were an essential part of that surrealistic-magical atmosphere of BP.


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## patrick76

brek said:


> The art and craft are both important, but interesting how much the Academy has favored "art" in picking score winners and nominees. Maybe it's because giving it to John Williams every year isn't a very compelling storyline.


Hi. What do you mean by this? I keep looking at it and am not sure I am really getting it. Are you saying that John Williams in general creates something of less "artistic" value than some/most of the winners? That Black Panther's "art" quality is above say, the score to Vice or Red Sparrow (both of which were not nominated - and thanks to this thread I recently checked out, so, thanks for this thread everyone)? If so, agree to disagree I suppose.


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## Akarin

JohnG said:


> Horner won two Academy Awards.
> 
> @Drundfunk Given that you "can't even remember the score" and "don't think I've watched one movie or listened to any of the other scores nominated," perhaps insinuating that it won solely for political, racial reasons is a weak gambit? With what you admit is nearly zero information, you leap to that?
> 
> It was a very unusual movie that caught the imagination of millions of people. The score also is very unusual, especially for an action score; there's a certain amount of "generic" that goes along with much action music and I think he avoided a lot of that. Why shouldn't it deserve a win?



Thank you.


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## JohnG

Drundfunk said:


> it is not a secret that the academy is extremely afraid not to cater to minorities since the backlash they received two years ago.



So you adopt the laziest possible approach and, without even listening to the other nominees, reflexively attribute the win to racial apology. Congratulations.



Drundfunk said:


> ....that Black Panther was nominated for Best Movie is an utter joke (I'm a Marvel fan btw. I watch all of those movies, but I'm also not delusional). In fact the whole "cult" following this film is just ridiculous.



More ridiculous than, say, Avengers, or Ant-Man and the Wasp? Or Hulk or Guardians or Thor? And what's "ridiculous" about Black Panther? Thought Dr. Strange was more "realistic" or hewed closer to your idea of what's correct and what's not in a Marvel movie? Didn't care for the costumes or the gizmos? Found even more plot holes than usual?



Drundfunk said:


> It's not necessarily essential to know all the other scores,



Nice you feel absolved from actually comparing the score to others before pronouncing it unworthy.



Drundfunk said:


> Common sense tells me that's exactly what happened.



"Common sense" -- and utter carelessness about actually making an effort to compare the score to others. I find it telling that your initial "link" was a playlist that was replete with incorrect cues.

Before I publicly denigrate the work of someone else, I try to make a little bit of effort. Besides, with projects like this it's pretty much impossible to know whether the stuff you didn't like -- or did -- arose primarily from the composer, the director, some producer, or somebody's girlfriend/boyfriend.

I'm not saying it's the best or it's not. Why? Because I haven't listened to all of the scores. I did listen to this one and found more to like than not, and more than a little effort was obviously put in to make it different from the other scores we hear all the time. 

Most of those could be transferred from any one Marvel movie to any other without the audience noticing a single thing. Not so with Black Panther's score.

I'm not holding it out to be the best, but I detest lazy attacks.


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## Land of Missing Parts

It's best not to take the Academy Awards too seriously. Or any awards for that matter.


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## D Halgren

Realistically, if this was about affirmative action, as some of you seem to be alluding to, wouldn't it have been Terence Blanchard that won? Wouldn't Spike have won for Director, and Black Kkklansman for Best Film?


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## brek

patrick76 said:


> Hi. What do you mean by this? I keep looking at it and am not sure I am really getting it. Are you saying that John Williams in general creates something of less "artistic" value than some/most of the winners? That Black Panther's "art" quality is above say, the score to Vice or Red Sparrow (both of which were not nominated - and thanks to this thread I recently checked out, so, thanks for this thread everyone)? If so, agree to disagree I suppose.



You have to read that in context of what I wrote in the first half of the paragraph. I put scare quotes around "art" because I'm using it in the context of scores that are "unique" and "authentic." I wouldn't presume to be an arbiter of what makes something artistic, but I'm talking about voter perceptions.

None of that is to say a Williams score lacks artistry or a Greenwood or Reznor score lacks craftsmanship. At least I hope that's not the takeaway... lest I'm an even worse communicator than I thought.


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## patrick76

brek said:


> You have to read that in context of what I wrote in the first half of the paragraph. I put scare quotes around "art" because I'm using it in the context of scores that are "unique" and "authentic." I wouldn't presume to be an arbiter of what makes something artistic, but I'm talking about voter perceptions.
> 
> None of that is to say a Williams score lacks artistry or a Greenwood or Reznor score lacks craftsmanship. At least I hope that's not the takeaway... lest I'm an even worse communicator than I thought.


Ha. No, everyone else seemed to get it, so I think it was just me...


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## brenneisen

Land of Missing Parts said:


> It's best not to take the Academy Awards too seriously. Or any awards for that matter.


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## prodigalson

FWIW, I really loved the score to Beale Street. It positively glowed with a warmth that perfectly captured the essence of the lovers slowly falling in love.


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## bachader

> More ridiculous than, say, Avengers, or Ant-Man and the Wasp? Or Hulk or Guardians or Thor? And what's "ridiculous" about Black Panther? Thought Dr. Strange was more "realistic" or hewed closer to your idea of what's correct and what's not in a Marvel movie? Didn't care for the costumes or the gizmos? Found even more plot holes than usual?


The scores of other Marvel movies could be much worse but they were not awarded “best score”. I think that’s what surprised people.



> Before I publicly denigrate the work of someone else, I try to make a little bit of effort. Besides, with projects like this it's pretty much impossible to know whether the stuff you didn't like -- or did -- arose primarily from the composer, the director, some producer, or somebody's girlfriend/boyfriend.


You are right, that is the ideal case. And, the comments of those who pay that effort will be much more valuable. But everybody is still free to comment on everything, right. Even those with no music background could comment on any music. We are also commenting on sample libraries, even on their prices. We should not expect someone to have tried all other sample libraries and compared the value/price ratios before saying that a sample library is too expensive or not worth of price.



> Most of those could be transferred from any one Marvel movie to any other without the audience noticing a single thing. Not so with Black Panther's score.


Thanks. This is very useful tip. Maybe, this is the main factor making some members feel that the BP score sounds unusual/original.



> I'm not holding it out to be the best, but I detest lazy attacks.


If a comment seems to be very superficial and does not seem well-studied why not just ignore it? No need to detest someone else’s comments.


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## bachader

People (including me) were probably expecting a drama movie rather than a super hero movie for both "best score" and "best movie" category nominations. Thus, it could be surprising to many.

When I started the thread I was hoping to get some ideas about the recent trends in movie scores and even wondered if the traditional score writing is not popular in Hollywood anymore. Luckily, @Harzmusic shared his ideas about the distinguishing properties of BP, thematic development and cultural motives, unusual percussion and vocal parts. Although I don’t agree all of them, I find them very useful and listened to the soundtrack with those in mind.

Then I felt uncomfortable since I noticed that we are commenting (sometimes harshly) on a commercial stuff not on member compositions. There are so many people and organizations involved (agents, producers, film companies, music editors, trailer contractors etc.), many members in this forum may be involved or will be involved in the future with those people and organizations for a living. And some of us are anonymous and some of us are not, and some of us are industry professionals and some of us are just music enthusiasts.

Although they otherwise prefer to remain silent or just to ignore, professional non-anonymous members might feel obliged to comment on the negative comments or conversely they might avoid criticizing a commercial movie score publicly on this forum.

I think it is unfair to put members in such a position and I really feel a bit bad about it. Maybe, it is best not to post any further on this thread.

Respectfully,


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## NoamL

JohnG said:


> reflexively attribute the win to racial apology.



Eh, I'd say toss it on the pile of several factors. Like how ROMA was never gonna win because it's Netflix. A Star Is Born was probably never really in contention either because it's "not Best Picture material."

Of course you could say I'm just guessing that and you'd be right.

BTW I don't think I've said in this thread that it's _*not*_ a good score. Just that the Academy often nominates and sometimes awards scores for being in otherwise heavily awarded films.


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## Drundfunk

Yeah, please ignore everything I'm actually saying and form your own narrative. Just because Trump is doing it, doesn't mean the rest of the world should do it as well. If you are answering somebody at least try to read and understand what they are saying, because your paragraph about other Marvel movies makes no sense at all. I don't know about any "cult" following the movies you mentioned, but I sure as hell know about the SJ "cult" following Black Panther. (And no till this date Black Panther still isn't the first black superhero movie).


JohnG said:


> Before I publicly denigrate the work of someone else, I try to make a little bit of effort


Yeah that was definitely what I was doing. You may want to quote the specific paragraph where I was doing that. Or you can quote the part where I said that Ludwig Goransson is talented. Your choice, President T. .
I'll just end this here, because you are clearly completely confused. 


JohnG said:


> I find it telling that your initial "link" was a playlist that was replete with incorrect cues


I mean, what?! 


JohnG said:


> Most of those could be transferred from any one Marvel movie to any other without the audience noticing a single thing. Not so with Black Panther's score.


 Just answering on this since I saw it before hitting reply. Maybe that has to do with the fact that other Marvel movies don't take place in a fictional Africa, but what the hell do I know.


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## brenneisen

brenneisen said:


> because it sucks



No, it does not! I was just being an ignorant prick... quiero ser hardcore y mi mamá no me deja

the 808's were well implemented (although a bit lazy) and the short rhythmic brass thing was cool also : )

sorry mama


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## toomanynotes

Ennio Morricone will be pleased to know the trend continues and innovative composer works are still being recognised.


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## dcoscina

Gotta say guys, I'm a little disappointed. I usually seek refuge here from soundtrack fan site forums because we are all musicians (and I'd say a good % working composers to some degree) hence we understand the industry, the constraints and realities of writing film music. 

Goransson should be lauded for his score. Even if we dismiss the beautiful African influences he injected into the fabric of the score, there is plenty of meat on Black Panther's bones. First, he composed several themes and key motives that are developed and recur throughout the score. In terms of architecture, Black Panther follows in the steps of classic superhero scores by its insistence on developing its central music ideas alongside the characters and narrative of the film. Even those "empty" or "generic" action cues some cite, you will hear recapitulations and quotes of that Wakanda Brass passage, melodic and harmonic variations of Klau's theme. Goransson brilliantly imbued Killmonger with a collision of African and African American music influences. This theme is also threaded in and around the other theme groups that dramatically ties this character and his motivations to the narrative as a whole. 

It's a shame that BP is dismissed or invalidated under the auspicies of political correct or SJW or whatever the in vogue derogatory catch phrases for liberalism are these days. After viewing the film the first time, I was lukewarm about it. But I watched it again, and then again, and found the themes, both narratively and musically, more and more compelling. BP operates on various levels. It's an enjoyable, well made superhero film. But under its surface there's more there if one wants to posit it. Ludwig Goransson should be applauded for his efforts because he composed a score that has themes, that stands out within the film viewing experience (cannot tell you how many moments I noticed the music and thought "damn, this is really good writing"), and probes avenues that many of us would necessarily have thought of.


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## Parsifal666

I was surprised the First Avenger and Avengers scores didn't at least get nominated. 

To be completely forthright, I stopped taking the Academy seriously when I counted up how many Oscars Bernard Herrmann and Jerry Goldsmith took home.


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## dcoscina

Parsifal666 said:


> I was surprised the First Avenger and Avengers scores didn't at least get nominated.
> 
> To be completely forthright, I stopped taking the Academy seriously when I counted up how many Oscars Bernard Herrmann and Jerry Goldsmith took home.


I haven't watched it since Williams' Memoirs of a Geisha lost to Brokeback Mountain. And that's about 120 hours I haven't missed out on.


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## NoamL

There have been too many snubs to count. Jumanji wasn't even nominated. HOW?!

But after looking it up, I notice that it was recognized as a nominee by the IFMCA. Seems like a point in favor of having a composers-only award with more nominees and a more music-literate academy of judges.


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## JohnG

dcoscina said:


> Memoirs of a Geisha



One of his best.


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## patrick76

NoamL said:


> There have been too many snubs to count


Honestly I think my initial negative reaction was because of this more than anything specifically about the Black Panther score.


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## dcoscina

NoamL said:


> There have been too many snubs to count. Jumanji wasn't even nominated. HOW?!
> 
> But after looking it up, I notice that it was recognized as a nominee by the IFMCA. Seems like a point in favor of having a composers-only award with more nominees and a more music-literate academy of judges.


Powell has also done very well with IFMCA. He won 2 this year for Solo


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## dcoscina

JohnG said:


> One of his best.


It worked beautifully within the film but also plays like a cello concerto away from it. Stunning on all levels.


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## AR

I just watched "Paterno". And that to me had the best score in 2018. Had to google up the composers. Never heard of them. Great job.

Speaking of Black Panther...are we seriously nominating Marvel movies now??? Damn, Hollywood really lost their track. My guess is sooner or later the Golden Globes will overrun the Oscars in all aspects.


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