# Advice needed where to look for work!



## IoannisGutevas (Mar 21, 2017)

Hello everyone,

This year i decided to assert myself and turn my love/hobby -making music that is- into a job. 

I organized my libraries, upgraded some of my studio equipment and i have all the time in the world to work all day and night happily .

Problem is that where i live its impossible to go out and meet people to work for epic trailers and games and all the epic stuff i want to work with. Leaving home isnt an option too.

So my only option is working via the web. I made a website and im just browsing everywhere trying to figure out where i can get work. Do you have any advice? I feel like shit having all the time in the world to work and all the mood to work and not knowing where to look. 

I already made an account and started on AudioJungle and starting today i'll try to post stuff there almost daily. And looked at upwork too. Thats as far as i got. 

Any help for a frustrted composer?


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## thov72 (Mar 21, 2017)

Did you go through Emmet Cookes http://thebusinessofmusiclicensing.com/ ?
Since you´re already taking an Evenant Course---they have one about this topic, too.

Happy composing!!


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## IoannisGutevas (Mar 21, 2017)

thov72 said:


> Did you go through Emmet Cookes http://thebusinessofmusiclicensing.com/ ?
> Since you´re already taking an Evenant Course---they have one about this topic, too.
> 
> Happy composing!!



Thank you for the answer! Yes i have this course (http://courses.evenant.com/p/the-business-of-music-licensing) and been reading it extensively last few days. I dont have the book though. I'll buy it though, thanks for the advice


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## Desire Inspires (Mar 21, 2017)

IoannisGutevas said:


> Problem is that where i live its impossible to go out and meet people to work for epic trailers and games and all the epic stuff i want to work with. Leaving home isnt an option too.



I think it will be rather difficult if you are not willing and able to meet with filmmakers face to face. The internet is filled with people doing the same thing as you are. Working with people side by side would give you more of a benefit.

But since you are set on doing this via internet, read some great books and watch plenty of YouTube tutorials.

Also, can we hear your music?


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## kitekrazy (Mar 21, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> I think it will be rather difficult if you are not willing and able to meet with filmmakers face to face. The internet is filled with people doing the same thing as you are. Working with people side by side would give you more of a benefit.
> 
> But since you are set on doing this via internet, read some great books and watch plenty of YouTube tutorials.
> 
> Also, can we hear your music?



You could always start with community college students studying film. If Metallica and Van Halen gave their music away for free before making it big don't a think you are above that you need to be paid right away. Only do small stuff for free. Keep in mind your work is less valued by others than you. The performing arts is really hard to break into and requires some sacrifice (free work). There's always a chance that what was fun now becomes work and you may not enjoy it.


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## IoannisGutevas (Mar 22, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> I think it will be rather difficult if you are not willing and able to meet with filmmakers face to face. The internet is filled with people doing the same thing as you are. Working with people side by side would give you more of a benefit.
> 
> But since you are set on doing this via internet, read some great books and watch plenty of YouTube tutorials.
> 
> Also, can we hear your music?



Thank you for answering! Its not difficult for me, its impossible. My goal is to make 400$ per month in order to justify my endeavor and to pay some bills . You said that the internet is filled with people who do what i wanna do. Thats hardly a reason not to do anything. That reverse logic can be applied to anything you wanna do in life since most people would be doing it already. Im not even bothering to think the reasons that this can fail. Its a waste of energy and creativity. Im thinking only the reasons and the way i can make this work. I have read several books and watched TOO MANY youtube tutorials and i still do. Can you give me some examples of books and youtube tutorials that i can read and watch in order to help me make this endeavor viable? 

Of course  You can hear my music on my YouTube channel : https://www.youtube.com/user/IoannisGutevas/ and on my soundcloud : https://soundcloud.com/ioannis-gutevas



kitekrazy said:


> You could always start with community college students studying film. If Metallica and Van Halen gave their music away for free before making it big don't a think you are above that you need to be paid right away. Only do small stuff for free. Keep in mind your work is less valued by others than you. The performing arts is really hard to break into and requires some sacrifice (free work). There's always a chance that what was fun now becomes work and you may not enjoy it.



Thanks for answering! Like i said meeting with filmaking studends its impossible for me. I dont know how to make you understand my situation, i live in a village with that has like 80 people all in all. The nearest filmaking college is 8 hours driving away and it would require me to rent a room stay there for a while ect. Money i currently dont have to spend. I dont expect to be paid right away. All my songs that i have post on YouTube and been making for almost 2 years now are free for any non commercial and non political purpose. But like you said only do small stuff for free. Im not Metallica or Van Halen and more importantly im not 17 years old that they were when they gave away cds for free. I have gone that route and idk how people back then viewed musicians, nowdays if you devalue your own work (giving it away for free for commercials or get payed for "exposure"), noone will value you too. I know how to do my job and i think i can do it very well. Problem is that the internet is too big and idk where to start. 

Also there is no chance that what was fun to become unenjoyable. Cause noone could make me work harder than i make myself. There is a saying "If there is no enemy within, the enemy outside can do us no harm".


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## dannymc (Mar 22, 2017)

just start the journey man. dont be put off by what people say in a forum. if someone wanted to be a doctor for their career would they think to themselves "you know what, there are too many doctors in the world already, i'm not going to bother". no, instead they would work and study towards being the best new doctor they can be. same thing applies here imo. 

Danny


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## IoannisGutevas (Mar 22, 2017)

dannymc said:


> just start the journey man. dont be put off by what people say in a forum. if someone wanted to be a doctor for their career would they think to themselves "you know what, there are too many doctors in the world already, i'm not going to bother". no, instead they would work and study towards being the best new doctor they can be. same thing applies here imo.
> 
> Danny



Thank you Danny, my thoughts exactly


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## thov72 (Mar 22, 2017)

you can always contact film making communities/colleges via internet. or try Taxi/Music Library Report to get into certain libraries


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## thov72 (Mar 22, 2017)

btw your stuff is really good. Greetings to Greece. Hope you manage to live your dream ..... and have enough food as long as it takes to get there  ....


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## IoannisGutevas (Mar 22, 2017)

@thov72 I'll try that  Im glad you liked my songs my friend. I seriously hope so too :D


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## Flaneurette (Mar 25, 2017)

Have you tried this yet:

https://www.freelancer.com/jobs/Music/
https://www.fiverr.com/search/gigs?...tegory=12&sub_category=157&page=1&filter=auto
https://www.peopleperhour.com/freelance/freelance+music+composer
https://soundbetter.com/s/songwriter-music
https://www.lastminutemusicians.com/search/composers_arrangers_mds.html
https://www.gigsalad.com/Solo-Musicians/Composer
...etc.


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## mwarsell (Mar 25, 2017)

Flaneurette said:


> Have you tried this yet:
> 
> https://www.freelancer.com/jobs/Music/
> https://www.fiverr.com/search/gigs?...tegory=12&sub_category=157&page=1&filter=auto
> ...


Has someone signed up for any of these and found work?


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## Flaneurette (Mar 25, 2017)

mwarsell said:


> Has someone signed up for any of these and found work?



Years ago I listed myself on freelance websites and actively placed bids on projects. There are many of these sites. Freelance.com is one of them. That is how I found a steady pool of clients, two of which I met in real life and provided me with many projects. It's one way of setting up and finding a network.

This looks like a great opportunity:

https://www.freelancer.com/projects/Music/orchestrate-Epic-Sci-Orchestra-Sibelius-13463947/



> We are seeking a score editor (orchestrator) to re-orchestrate (and edit if needed) a full orchestral score (in Sibelius file), for a sci-fi theme. Applicant with a good resulting work will be credited in this music publication.



I don't look for work, but if I did, I certainly would give it a shot.


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## Flaneurette (Mar 25, 2017)

If someone wants to go this route, I also have a few tips from doing this for years:

It's best to pro-actively place bids. About 1, maybe 2 out of 10 projects will be yours if you play it correctly. Don't go too low and don't go too high. Make it personal, don't just throw your website at them. Write a small and short note and say why you are the best. Talk about their project, think like them, be excited as they are. List your rates, go in between. If $4 per bar is industry standard, say that it's the standard. People who posts jobs there, most of them don't know anything about music/composing/industry. So say something like: _the standard rate is like $x per bar, I will do it for $y per bar._ But don't go too low, or they will think that you are desperate. People like bargains, but they also know that quality isn't cheap either. At the end of your message, list your website, email and phone number. People may call you. If you get the job/project, make a small contract -or- ask for a upfront payment. I usually asked 25%-50%, depending on my intuition and whether I think I could trust them. When they bail, at least you got some of your time payed for. In all the years I worked like this, I got only 3 clients who never payed me at all. But that is the risk of doing business.


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## Desire Inspires (Mar 25, 2017)

IoannisGutevas said:


> My goal is to make 400$ per month in order to justify my endeavor and to pay some bills .



That isn't too difficult. Have you joined a PRO like ASCAP, BMI, PRS, SOCAN? You could be making thousands of dollars in royalties. You have the talent. Just join a PRO (performance rights organization) and submit your music to these music libraries:

FirstCom
Killertracks
Megatrax
Extreme
EMI
APM
BMG
5 Alarm

Good luck!


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## calebfaith (Mar 25, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> That isn't too difficult. Have you joined a PRO like ASCAP, BMI, PRS, SOCAN? You could be making thousands of dollars in royalties. You have the talent. Just join a PRO (performance rights organization) and submit your music to these music libraries:
> 
> FirstCom
> Killertracks
> ...



Sorry to hijack the thread, but when submitting music to these places would it be best to send them all the same tracks and see who is interested?


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## Phryq (Mar 26, 2017)

I'm in almost the same boat. I want to be able to *move* to a village of 80 people and make a living by composing.

I second the above comment. Do I just send *all* my compositions to *all* of those libraries?


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## Jaap (Mar 26, 2017)

Those libraries are quite a challenge to enter to be honest. Do the research on what they produce and that you can match what they have in their catalogue soundwise and that you CAN top that. Those libraries gets thousands upon thousands of submissions. Be sure you stand out. Develop a strategy and just don't sent a generic email with some tracks. Do the research and be ready to be ignored  It can take up months before you hear anything (if lucky at all)


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## IoannisGutevas (Mar 26, 2017)

Thank you all for your help guys  So many good information here. 

@Flaneurette Thank you for all the links my friend. So far i have tried AudioJungle and upwork but i'll sure check out all of them and make account(s) there! Also thats a very tempting job for reorchestrating a sibellius project. I'll apply! 

@douggibson You are absolutely right. I have set a year from now as a checkpoint to be able to achieve my goal. I know Cubase , Ableton Live and Studio One 3 so im thinking on teaching that too to whoever is interested and helping setting up templates. In time i'll think of more stuff i hope  Im not that well versed in music theory (i know up to counterpoint so i think there are other people that someone can learn from theory so i wont be trying to teach that.). Thank you for your suggestions!

@Desire Inspires Thank you my friend! I have never understood how the whole concept of getting a PRO works. Do you pay annually? Can you get more than 1? Is it free and you just send them your tracks? Which PRO do you suggest me in signing up with? I'll visit all of their sites and read the info but having someone advising me through experience is the best thing 

@Jaap I'll visit their websites and check it out  Being said NO isnt a bad thing for me, it just makes me want to get better. I dont mind the worse case senario since without trying at all.. iam at the worse case senario


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## Jaap (Mar 26, 2017)

A PRO is a Performance Right Organisation which tracks the use of your music. Here a link to some info which answers some of your questions.
http://blog.reverbnation.com/2016/0...-whats-a-performance-rights-organization-pro/


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## IoannisGutevas (Mar 26, 2017)

Jaap said:


> A PRO is a Performance Right Organisation which tracks the use of your music. Here a link to some info which answers some of your questions.
> http://blog.reverbnation.com/2016/0...-whats-a-performance-rights-organization-pro/



Thank you! I'll start reading


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## Phryq (Mar 26, 2017)

Please don't take this the wrong way... I googled the first library on your list, and looked under new releases.

http://www.firstcom.com/#!/BROWSE/browsed-results.aspx?selectedLabelId=-1&SelectedCDId=12890
^^Washy piano with fake sounding strings doing nothing but sustaining.

http://www.firstcom.com/#!/BROWSE/browsed-results.aspx?selectedLabelId=-1&SelectedCDId=13505
^^Pads

http://www.firstcom.com/#!/BROWSE/browsed-results.aspx?selectedLabelId=-1&SelectedCDId=13502
^^Doesn't actually sound Turkish 

Sorry to be critical. I don't think they're looking for genius, but music that can fit into a box / is easily searchable and can be used in temps? E.G. mysterious / funny / scary ambient music.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'm also trying to figure out, what exactly do they want.

http://www.firstcom.com/#!/BROWSE/browsed-results.aspx?selectedLabelId=-1&SelectedCDId=13349
^^This sounds pretty good,

http://www.killertracks.com/#!/browse/browsed-results.aspx?selectedLabelId=1&=13324
^^Well produced, but just ambience.SelectedCDId high? I guess there are 2 paths - put your music into a library that's easy to get into, with a low chance of selling, 

If you do manage to get into one of these libraries, are the chances of your music selling or put your music into a library that's hard to be accepted into, but once you're in you're set?


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## Jaap (Mar 26, 2017)

For sure it's no rocket science or genius compositions indeed (at first sight). However it is a different cup of tea then writing "just" a song. If you want to be a dedicated production music library writer you need adress different skills. The structure is often simple, the harmonic and melodic part are also not gonna bring you eternal fame, but it lies in making it work for the music supervisors. Almost never a complete song is used. They want snippets of the piece so you need to be able to make good cuts and alternative versions. Some compositions can have up to 15 or 20 different versions (havent checked here), but for a current album I am working on most pieces have around 13 till 15 versions. This goes from creating different underscore versions to a non-melodic, non percussive, piano only, 30 sec, 60 sec versions etc etc.
That is what they are after. Good productions that are like a piece of IKEA furniture. Easy to assemble and to deconstruct and assemble again into different versions.
Once you are in you are not set. Not nowadays. It became a highly competitive world and it is a numbers game. Maybe only a few pieces get licensed and will give you a decent backend, but there is a high chance that your music will just be a dust collector.

To make a living out of the royalties you will need a 1000+ compositions spread amongst different libraries. Some are lucky and get a lucky pick that will start collecting money straight away, but there is not quick road to success. Just like any other music business it is working hard. Quality AND quantity are keywords here.

This is a nice introduction video. He explains the fairly basic stuff and towards the end he also tells he has around 1100+ compositions out there and that they are now providing him with a decent income.


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## Desire Inspires (Mar 26, 2017)

Phryq said:


> I'm in almost the same boat. I want to be able to *move* to a village of 80 people and make a living by composing.
> 
> I second the above comment. Do I just send *all* my compositions to *all* of those libraries?




Send your top three songs to all of the music libraries. Some will respond and others will not. 

Don't be scared by the fact that these music libraries are great. Make great music and get it submitted.

If you want to make a living at doing music, you have to send your music out to companies who are going to help you make money.

Try other companies as well. The important thing to do is to send out your music. If you don't do that, you will not have a chance to make money.

If you want a long list of music libraries, I can post the link.


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## dannymc (Mar 26, 2017)

> Send your top three songs to all of the music libraries. Some will respond and others will not.
> 
> Don't be scared by the fact that these music libraries are great. Make great music and get it submitted.
> 
> ...



have you started making a living from your music yourself Desire?

Danny


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## Desire Inspires (Mar 27, 2017)

dannymc said:


> have you started making a living from your music yourself Desire?
> 
> Danny



Not yet. 

I get PRO royalties and license fees every month, but the income isn't large enough to cover all of my living expenses.

So I continuously work to make the dream happen. More songs to make and more checks to get!

How are you doing in your journey?


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## dannymc (Mar 27, 2017)

writing lots for TV at the moment so trying to keep feeding that animal so that placements and back end start to happen. also started working with some good exclusives. so its been really good so far considering the short time i've been doing this 

Danny


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## Desire Inspires (Mar 27, 2017)

dannymc said:


> writing lots for TV at the moment so trying to keep feeding that animal so that placements and back end start to happen. also started working with some good exclusives. so its been really good so far considering the short time i've been doing this
> 
> Danny



Congrats!


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## Phryq (Mar 28, 2017)

Desire, are you doing as Jaap said? Creating tons of snippets and alternate versions?

Jaap - that seems a bit soul killing. When I think about doing that... might as well have studied law. You have to do all that uninspiring work, and then you *might* make a small amount of money? If that's the only way I'll just teach English over Skype and compose whatever I want (mean tempered oboes in 7/8 time here I come).


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## cjaudio (Mar 28, 2017)

As someone who has browsed Freelancer, Upwork and similar type sites i would chime in that IMO they are a waste for the most part. What a race to the bottom, Fifver seems a touch better but not much. I also record and mix records for bands, thought i might be able to make some extra cash but after seeing "I need to take all the background noise out of this and mixed" or "Need 'insert music here' immediately" and the budget is $10 dollars. To me that is a waste of time, $10 is $10 to some but i am just not a fan.


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## Desire Inspires (Mar 28, 2017)

Phryq said:


> Desire, are you doing as Jaap said? Creating tons of snippets and alternate versions?



Yes I am!

When I first started composing, I didn't make any snippets or alternate versions of songs. I just figured that the end users would just edit them. But doing that extra work does pay off. Drum & Bass edits and stingers get used just as often as the regular versions of songs, sometimes more.

It does take a great deal of work to make money with music libraries. But I love making music and I don't mind doing the extra work if it results in more income. 

Every job has mundane but necessary tasks. I take the bad with the good and do the hard work.

I can definitely understand some musicians being put off by making 10 versions of each track, coming up with metadata, registering music with a PRO, calling new music libraries, review contracts, etc. It does take away from creativity. So for some musicians, it may not be a path forward. I can respect those who choose not to work with music libraries because of all of the grunt work involved.

But it is part of the business. It is something that has to be done. It teaches patience and discipline. And it does help to build relationships and make more income. And that in turn leads to more time to learn and create more music.


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## dannymc (Mar 28, 2017)

i'm all for creating additional alt versions for each track. most of the libraries i'm with ask me for them. but 10 versions per track? come on man. i couldn't even think of 10 different versions for 1 track. this seems like overkill to me. and i also get the impression the higher the quality library the less of this grunt work you need to do. i would imagine the max alt versions you should need per track is about 5 max.

Danny


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## Desire Inspires (Mar 28, 2017)

dannymc said:


> i'm all for creating additional alt versions for each track. most of the libraries i'm with ask me for them. but 10 versions per track? come on man. i couldn't even think of 10 different versions for 1 track. this seems like overkill to me. and i also get the impression the higher the quality library the less of this grunt work you need to do. i would imagine the max alt versions you should need per track is about 5 max.
> 
> Danny



You are right. 10 alts was an exaggeration. For most libraries, I provide the following:

Main
Underscore/Drum & Bass
30 sec/60 sec

Other options that may be requested are as follows:

Melody
15 sec
No perc
Perc only

It all will vary by what the companies want and what genres you make.

In any case, a few edits do help to land more placements than just the main track alone.


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## IoannisGutevas (Mar 29, 2017)

Has any of you guys registered with BMI? Im looking at all the PROs and i like BMI. Im not a US citizen though and im confused with the paperwork. If you have been affiliated with them can you explain for me how to do it? Also must i send the papers with physical mail or it can be done with e-mail? 

Lastly do you have any recommendation with a PRO thats easy to register with and reliable besides BMI?


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## Jaap (Mar 29, 2017)

Well 10 versions isn't that much to be honest for a full orchestral/hybrid track. At the moment I am making 3 30 sec versions, 2 60 seconds, 2 15 seconds, one underscore, a piano only, a strings only, a piano and string only, full version without choir, full version without percussion, 3 stings of max 10 seconds

@Phryq - It might seem soul killing, but on the other hand what a great luxery it is to have this kind of work and yes I dislike the editting and mundane tasks sometimes as well, but that goes with every job to be honest.


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## Dear Villain (Mar 29, 2017)

Phryq said:


> Desire, are you doing as Jaap said? Creating tons of snippets and alternate versions?
> 
> Jaap - that seems a bit soul killing. When I think about doing that... might as well have studied law. You have to do all that uninspiring work, and then you *might* make a small amount of money? If that's the only way I'll just teach English over Skype and compose whatever I want (mean tempered oboes in 7/8 time here I come).


I can completely understand the struggle between writing to satisfy one's inner voice and trying to serve the market. I vacillate daily between writing "serious" pieces and "formulaic" music for libraries. Of course, since I've just begun this part of my life, I don't have any evidence that the library route is going to be successful...on the other hand, my first string orchestra composition was performed by a professional symphony orchestra (granted for very little money, but still quite a thrill). Anyway, this thread has been amazingly helpful, and unfortunately hits a little too close to home at times.


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## Desire Inspires (Mar 29, 2017)

Dear Villain said:


> I vacillate daily between writing "serious" pieces and "formulaic" music for libraries.


The strange thing that I have found that it takes a lot of work to make formulaic music.

It isn't always as easy as it sounds to make music that is supposed to be popular and easy on the ears. A lot of work goes into making that kind of music. Even today's formulaic music will not be the winning formula for tomorrow. It changes constantly.


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## mc_deli (Mar 29, 2017)

Great thread. Approach the freelancer sites with extreme caution. I think the biggest problem with them is that is where you will find the least experienced clients with the most potential to make your work miserable. The downward price pressure and lack of human contact are also major disadvantages. I work freelance in a another creative industry and I have never had a client not pay - that's probably because I have never used a freelancer site  That said, if you are in remote village I can see why you would take a good look at some of those sites. Great pointers in this thread.


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## muk (Mar 30, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> The strange thing that I have found that it takes a lot of work to make formulaic music.



Completely agree. If you start doing it you'll notice that there are huge differences in quality for formulaic music as well. If you want to write high quality formulaic, it's actually not so easy to do and takes a lot of work.


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## mwarsell (Mar 31, 2017)

I sent these three tracks to like top 10 different libraries.

Never ever heard back from any of them.







This put me off the genre. Either I don't know how to do it or then this was just a lot of mismatches.

edit: sorry if this looks like a hijack!


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## calebfaith (Mar 31, 2017)

mwarsell said:


> I sent these three tracks to like top 10 different libraries.
> 
> Never ever heard back from any of them.
> 
> ...




From what I could tell your tracks were lacking any kind of strong interesting feature to draw the listener in and I thought it was a bit bland with little contrast in the tracks. I only clicked through different parts to hear if anything caught my attention which is what I imagine a music library would do for new submissions. Sorry if I'm being a bit harsh, I know with my music I'm really trying to improve the same thing!


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## mc_deli (Mar 31, 2017)

mwarsell said:


> I sent these three tracks to like top 10 different libraries.
> 
> Never ever heard back from any of them.
> 
> ...


Let's try to stay on topic. When you say you sent to top 10 libraries... do you mean you sent to 10 libraries that were asking for epic hybrid game trailery cues, or just 10 libraries?


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## mwarsell (Mar 31, 2017)

To:

Epic North
Twelve titans
Fired earth music
Ninja tracks
Position music
Liquid cinema
Really slow motion
Immediate music

Those at least. Immediate was the only one to response back, "no thanks". Others never wrote back.

But that's ok. Might not be my expertise.


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## Flaneurette (Mar 31, 2017)

Here's two more links which provide excellent with tips for contacting industry professionals, if you have no existing network. Written by A&Rs of record labels.

How to get signed:
http://nesthq.com/how-to-get-your-music-signed-feature/
How to format e-mails to industry professionals:
http://nesthq.com/how-to-properly-format-emails-to-labels-blogs-and-industry-professionals


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## dannymc (Mar 31, 2017)

> This put me off the genre. Either I don't know how to do it or then this was just a lot of mismatches.
> 
> edit: sorry if this looks like a hijack!



hey Mika your tracks are not terrible but you just happened to contact pretty much all the top trailer/epic orchestral libraries out there. your stuff would have to be stellar in comparison to get into those libraries. i have to agree with calebfaith above. the tracks really dragged and had no interesting catchy elements in them to keep a listener interested. if you want to do this music you really should post your tracks in the members composition section to get feedback and more importantly, listen to the best trailer music offered by those companies.

you might find this thread from the members forum interesting.

http://vi-control.net/community/thr...track-from-me-audio-jungle-rejected-it.60735/

Danny


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## thov72 (Mar 31, 2017)

I´m with BMI. Most European countries have a tax treaty with the US so it´s not THAT difficult.
You need an ITIN number and form W-8ben from the irs


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## IoannisGutevas (Mar 31, 2017)

thov72 said:


> I´m with BMI. Most European countries have a tax treaty with the US so it´s not THAT difficult.
> You need an ITIN number and form W-8ben from the irs



I just got a reply from them saying i could send the application through e-mail and if it gets accepted then i can setup any payment information. 

Im a bit confused with the w-8ben to be honest but i hope i can figure it out. Need to get in BMI before i try sending music to libraries. Hope to make it


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## mwarsell (Mar 31, 2017)

dannymc said:


> hey Mika your tracks are not terrible but you just happened to contact pretty much all the top trailer/epic orchestral libraries out there. your stuff would have to be stellar in comparison to get into those libraries. i have to agree with calebfaith above. the tracks really dragged and had no interesting catchy elements in them to keep a listener interested. if you want to do this music you really should post your tracks in the members composition section to get feedback and more importantly, listen to the best trailer music offered by those companies.
> 
> you might might this thread from the members forum interesting.
> 
> ...



I certainly listened to a ton of tracks from those libs before working on my own. I tried to recreate mine with them in mind. Tried to sound 80% similar with 20% of my own. My friends really liked the first one, said that it'd work great in a Prometheus trailer.

But enough of this in this thread. My apologies to the OP. If anyone wants to comment/reply, pm me, please. 

OP: I don't live in a small village, but I still struggle a lot with finding work. With a day job, small baby in the family etc it's hard even to find time to open the DAW. I wish you all the best and don't quit: One day our time will come.


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## mc_deli (Apr 2, 2017)

mwarsell said:


> OP: I don't live in a small village, but I still struggle a lot with finding work. With a day job, small baby in the family etc it's hard even to find time to open the DAW. I wish you all the best and don't quit: One day our time will come.


This.
Respect brothers, and sisters


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## Flaneurette (Apr 11, 2017)

Another tip:

Start a YT channel with meditation music. This channel gained half a million subscribers and 100 million views in just two years. All they do is upload two hour long synth pad's, tuning it too some vague mystical frequency and stick a nice picture in it.

Their income comes from being a Youtube partner, ads etc. They also have a simple website where they sell these MP3's. This is _passive_ income. I think they can earn a living from it. Youtube pays about $2-$3 for a 1,000 views.

No musical talent required. Just fire up a nice synth pad for 16 bars, loop it, put a drone beneath it, upload it and you're good to go.

To shave some of their subs, copy and improve what they're doing. Do it better. Have better pictures. Make 8 hour long video's instead of two so they can play it when they go to bed. Add in soundscapes, nature video's. etc.

There are opportunities everywhere. Give people what they want, and you get what you want.

Maybe I'm going to do this myself when I hit a writers block. Seems fun, and prevents idle time from being wasted.


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## Flaneurette (Apr 18, 2017)

Interesting story on Fiverr: This woman earns $9000 /month on Fiverr, doing simple voiceovers.

How hard can it be? just talking? if you're good at playing an instrument, I'm sure you can earn much more than that.

Another 3 people making a killing. One woman writes resumes and rakes in six-figures a year.

But again, it all boils down to: specialized skill, patience, time and knowing how to work with people. But that goes for any job.


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## IoannisGutevas (Apr 18, 2017)

Τhank you @Flaneurette for your suggestions 

I dont know if im up to making meditation music. It seems way too easy, and if someone makes that much money from holding a pad down and some evolving textures then its kinda a steal  But to each their own i guess. I might try to make a meditation song just for the fun of it though sometime. I had never thought of it.

I believe that most cases (like in the channel you linked on youtube with the meditation music) in youtube / fiverr the way to succeed is to have great marketing skills and the way to "sell" yourself and then to have some kind of talent. But marketing goes first.

And i suck at it. I've always been too shy around people and when i post something or say something i need to run it through a dozen times analyzing it before i do so. I have some psycological issues  But i guess most composers have them so thats comforting.

I tried AudioJungle and had some sales there and soon, i'll send papers to BMI and try to contact some publishers and libraries to see if i can do it there.

I'll try fiverr and upwork also (i was focusing on audiojungle more) too but it seems like a longshot to me. Thank you though a lot for your advices


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 18, 2017)

Phryq said:


> Desire, are you doing as Jaap said? Creating tons of snippets and alternate versions?
> 
> Jaap - that seems a bit soul killing. When I think about doing that... might as well have studied law. You have to do all that uninspiring work, and then you *might* make a small amount of money? If that's the only way I'll just teach English over Skype and compose whatever I want (mean tempered oboes in 7/8 time here I come).



Mean Tempered Oboes in 7/8?


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## dannymc (Apr 18, 2017)

> I believe that most cases (like in the channel you linked on youtube with the meditation music) in youtube / fiverr the way to succeed is to have great marketing skills and the way to "sell" yourself and then to have some kind of talent. But marketing goes first.
> 
> And i suck at it. I've always been too shy around people and when i post something or say something i need to run it through a dozen times analyzing it before i do so. I have some psycological issues  But i guess most composers have them so thats comforting.
> 
> I tried AudioJungle and had some sales there and soon, i'll send papers to BMI and try to contact some publishers and libraries to see if i can do it there.



i dont think you should write with the intention of impressing anyone. the reason why you're feeling shy and over analyzing is because you are doing that very thing, i.e. writing with the intention that others will value it and in turn value you as a composer.

thats all wrong. when i sit down to write the first person i try to impress is myself. i'm my own worst and best critic but that really spurs me on. when i feel like its working for me then its job done and onto the next track. other people liking my music is of course lovely and we all want that but not everyone is going to like my music and same with you but that doesn't make me feel anything in terms of being disheartened, and i always take advice good and bad as its all useful. anyway for me i set my goals very high when it comes to music because the music i love is of the highest quality and my aim is to keep working towards that level so that i can feel my stuff sits along side it. don't settle for anything less and put your own instincts first with your music and worry about impressing your audiences afterwards.

Danny


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 18, 2017)

Flaneurette said:


> Another tip:
> 
> Start a YT channel with meditation music. This channel gained half a million subscribers and 100 million views in just two years. All they do is upload two hour long synth pad's, tuning it too some vague mystical frequency and stick a nice picture in it.
> 
> ...



Heck yeah, I am going to do this!

I have already made some tunes like this before. All I need to do is start making them much, much, much longer, buy some photos from a stock site, and make a video to upload. 

This is totally inspiring and already fits into what I already have done. Thanks for the tip.


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## MA-Simon (Apr 18, 2017)

Flaneurette said:


> https://www.freelancer.com/jobs/Music/


Oh my. Please don't ever work for prices like that. And its even bids!


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## Norbz (Apr 18, 2017)

This is a great thread, I'll throw in my .02, some is already covered in the thread.

If you're open minded to what you can deliver to customers/potential partners, I think most musicians can:

Create your own sample libs on top of contacting developers (many already do, and maybe we don't need another '808 sample pack' but why let them just sit on your harddrive if you've already done them and are waiting for a deal with a dev/library owner).

Instead of library owners try to reach out to the leading sample sites (primeloops, bigfishaudio, modernproducers, etc). If you can export all your stems and make construction kits out of your content then that's another route.

(all.coms)
Fiverr - guru - elance - craigslist - envato/audiojungle.net - rightsify - there are a few others I'm forgetting but they are music/sample/audio aimed.

youtube channel (I think youtube and soundcloud are more than enough) with everything from your beats/compositions to you just making music live walking through a process or two in your production steps.

TuneCore/similar: Sell your pieces as end user music that you don't plan on selling as a single use/account.

If you don't like ^ those eco-systems - get a MyFlashStore.net account and create your own inventory direct to consumers (most beatmakers use these, some have amazing success, I don't think it matters what genre you're in though, it's a commerce/content delivery system at the end of the day).

Building out VST's in flowstone, maize, or even EXS patches etc. isn't THAT hard if you want to try for some low hanging fruit to package your samples/audio into (even do this and send it to a library owner to showcase that you understand the building process, sampling, notes, compression etc. - sending me final tracks is cool but I'd rather see/hear your sample process and end result and see you have xxx samples ready to package with an idea or two on how/creatives, so we can quickly partner and get them out there. If you're sending me tracks of how you used my software and hope I use it as a demo - that's slim but still possible, but slim).

I've done all of the above - and this leads to a lot of people hitting you up for a lot of different types of work you can say yes or no to (if you specifically want to design new compositions for every new gig and stick to movies/video and cinematic stuff only - then this may not all apply as much, but you can start wide and narrow in over time as you get your feet wet with clients and their random needs).

Something very important I learned in my years of business:

I used to run my own advertising/graphic design/rich media shop servicing tier-1 clients down to mom/pop shops. You're always going to be capped, even if you start staffing/outsourcing/being a big middleman - the moment I stopped trying to service clients, and start building things ONCE that I can sell over and over again, was the moment I started seeing my true value.

It took a long time but I eventually hated client servicing/clients, I think most of us go through burnout eventually so IF you can think ahead and start building things you can sell to more than one customer, you'll be in a better potential position than hunting for that next batch of clients or chasing those unpaid invoices. But that's just me, I know others who still run their shops, still service clients happily, and are spread thin/$ but still happy.

EDIT: Actually - here's an interview I did a while back that might inspire/give new insight on monetizing your talent. In short - it's difficult for us creative ppl to become business savvy/marketing savvy and do the boring but IMPORTANT business aspects of your talent, you must start learning it OR you will be forced when success happens and it's better to be a bit prepared.


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## Flaneurette (Apr 19, 2017)

That's great.

The most important thing is having patience. The difference between success and failure is persistence. I've seen many people simply give up if they don't make money with their music in the first year. If you stick with it, for at least two years and expect nothing or very little return, you will be surprised what will happen in the next five years. Having patience is so important. Nothing can grow in a few months or even a year. Like plants, one must keep tending them, until they are strong enough to live a life of their own. But when you don't plant any seeds at all, then surely nothing will grow.

Doing cheap jobs isn't bad when you just start out. It's not about the money at first, but about contacts and creating a network. Without a steady network, it's difficult to make a living out of it. Once you got a network, those cheap jobs might turn into a monthly steady income. Besides, each job -no matter how tiny- adds to your portfolio and presence. The one person you might turn down, might be the golden ticket to a steady income. Who knows, when you turned down a $100 job, that person might have been 2 or 3 contacts away from a famous director, who could have introduced you to him if you didn't decline it. If you don't value the small, you'll surely never get the opportunity to do the big stuff.

That is what I have learned. And I learned that through personal failure and ego-tripping. It's humbling.


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## dannymc (Apr 20, 2017)

> The most important thing is having patience. The difference between success and failure is persistence. I've seen many people simply give up if they don't make money with their music in the first year. If you stick with it, for at least two years and expect nothing or very little return, you will be surprised what will happen in the next five years. Having patience is so important. Nothing can grow in a few months or even a year. Like plants, one must keep tending them, until they are strong enough to live a life of their own. But when you don't plant any seeds at all, then surely nothing will grow.



god i wish i was better at the patience part. the worst part is you write what you think is a great track, it gets a great response from your publishers but then the track just sits there. and sits there and sits there. 

i know the library back-end royalties game is a really slow burner so i guess i just have to learn to be able to compose then fire and forget. let the publishers do the rest. i'm getting better at that part over time. they say you should have a 5 year plan when it comes to your music career so i'm sticking to that. i'm now 2 years in so i plan on keeping at it over the next 3 and hopefully some bigger things will happen. things have already moved in a nice direction already which i'm happy about. 

i have the benefit of having a full time job to pay the bills so any money i make is just extra pocket money. i guess the negative part to this is that i don't have the amount of time i would like to work on my craft since i mostly only get a chance to compose a few hours in the evenings after work and at the weekends. either way this is something i have a passion for and love to do. if i wasn't ever to make another penny i would still continue on becoming the best composer i can be. i think all of us should make that our focus.

Danny


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## Jetzer (Apr 20, 2017)

Patience is important..but…it can also be a BIG excuse to not take the necessary action towards your goal, because..it takes five years, right? What if you ask yourself the question: what if my had to achieve my five-year goal/plan in six months. What would I do? 

Not saying it magically changes your life, but it provokes some interesting questions.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 20, 2017)

dannymc said:


> god i wish i was better at the patience part. the worst part is you write what you think is a great track, it gets a great response from your publishers but then the track just sits there. and sits there and sits there.
> 
> i know the library back-end royalties game is a really slow burner so i guess i just have to learn to be able to compose then fire and forget. let the publishers do the rest. i'm getting better at that part over time. they say you should have a 5 year plan when it comes to your music career so i'm sticking to that. i'm now 2 years in so i plan on keeping at it over the next 3 and hopefully some bigger things will happen. things have already moved in a nice direction already which i'm happy about.
> 
> ...



Sounds like a winner to me.


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 20, 2017)

Jesse Heslinga said:


> Patience is important..but…it can also be a BIG excuse to not take the necessary action towards your goal, because..it takes five years, right? What if you ask yourself the question: what if my had to achieve my five-year goal/plan in six months. What would I do?
> 
> Not saying it magically changes your life, but it provokes some interesting questions.


I say to hell with patience.

I do my best to make the music and submit it to companies as soon as possible. I do not like to sit on music or wait to gather a collection to shop around.

For me, I want my music to be generating royalties immediately. That means getting my music into the hands of suitable companies as soon as possible. 

Tomorrow is not promised and I do not think patience is very helpful when it comes to making money from music. Today's hit will be forgotten. Even an "evergreen" piece may get no traction for years. So how will waiting be helpful?

Who the heck wants to wait 2 to 5 years for a sync fee or royalty check? If that check isn't $100,000 or more, it is not worth the wait!


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## jacobthestupendous (Jul 29, 2018)

Curious how it's going for OP.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Jul 29, 2018)

I've seen him in libraries so he must be doin alright!


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## IoannisGutevas (Jul 30, 2018)

Hello @jacobthestupendous 

It's going good. Not to the point that i can live only by the income from my music but its going good enough to hope that with a bit of more effort i can probably make it


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## jacobthestupendous (Jul 30, 2018)

IoannisGutevas said:


> Hello @jacobthestupendous
> 
> It's going good. Not to the point that i can live only by the income from my music but its going good enough to hope that with a bit of more effort i can probably make it


A year or so into it, do you have any tips for someone just embarking on this?


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## IoannisGutevas (Jul 30, 2018)

jacobthestupendous said:


> A year or so into it, do you have any tips for someone just embarking on this?



Hmm, start on audiojungle and upwork. Those are the places i started and had some money made out of. You can build a portfolio on audiojungle and make a name of yourself through that. You can try to talk to some videohive authors and maybe have your music placed on their videos to get more exposure. 

On upwork you need to find a good introduction letter you can modify and send to different people in order to get some works there too. 

Those are 2 good places to start. After that its kinda a snowball effect. You need to be social, kind and work hard. But don't give out your music for free or to get paid with "exposure", noone values that composer trust me no matter how good he is. Then you can move on to some trailer houses ect. You will get e-mails from studios maybe or other royalty free companies that would like to collaborate with you. It will build up. 

The best advice i can give you is that you need to be social. You need to be kind, social and have a good personality. Make a facebook, instagram, youtube and whatever else is trendy and advertise your music. You need to be everything when you are starting out, the marketing guy, the composer, the mastering guy ect. Also be confident and don't let anything to bring you down. Daily walks help on that 

You just need to take the leap of faith and always test your limits! If i can somehow manage it then im sure that you can probably do it way better so don't worry!


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## dannymc (Jul 30, 2018)

IoannisGutevas said:


> Hmm, start on audiojungle and upwork. Those are the places i started and had some money made out of. You can build a portfolio on audiojungle and make a name of yourself through that. You can try to talk to some videohive authors and maybe have your music placed on their videos to get more exposure.
> 
> On upwork you need to find a good introduction letter you can modify and send to different people in order to get some works there too.
> 
> ...



fantastic Ioannis glad to hear you're doing so well mate 

Danny


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## IoannisGutevas (Jul 31, 2018)

Thank you @dannymc! I have still a long way to go but I hope i will make it


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## louderandlouder (Oct 26, 2018)

Flaneurette said:


> Have you tried this yet:
> 
> ...etc.



In the UK try Gumtree - free to advertise and very popular


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## louderandlouder (Oct 26, 2018)

louderandlouder said:


> In the UK try Gumtree - free to advertise and very popular


Other classified services are available


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## louderandlouder (Oct 26, 2018)

louderandlouder said:


> Other classified services are available


Loot! Looking for a lute player?


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## louderandlouder (Oct 30, 2018)

Flaneurette said:


> Have you tried this yet:
> 
> https://www.freelancer.com/jobs/Music/
> https://www.entertainersworldwidejobs.com
> ...





mwarsell said:


> Has someone signed up for any of these and found work?


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## osterdamus (Nov 21, 2021)

IoannisGutevas said:


> Thank you @dannymc! I have still a long way to go but I hope i will make it


How's it going for you, @IoannisGutevas ?


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## IoannisGutevas (Nov 23, 2021)

Hello,

I started this post in 2017, my latest reply was in 2018 which feels like a lifetime away...

It's going well @osterdamus ! Been working on all sorts of things, royalty-free music, remixing things, epic music, trailer music, etc. Still trying to figure things out though but I'm trying to get better and get involved in as many things as I can considering music.

Lately, I managed to get my 1st placement on a triple-A game trailer but since the trailer hasn't come out Idk if I should say in which. But I couldn't be happier. This might be a little thing for many composers here but for me, it's proof that I can do this


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## GeorgeThatMusicGuy (Nov 23, 2021)

IoannisGutevas said:


> Hello,
> 
> I started this post in 2017, my latest reply was in 2018 which feels like a lifetime away...
> 
> ...


Congratulations that is fantastic to hear!


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## IoannisGutevas (Nov 23, 2021)

Thank you @GeorgeThatMusicGuy


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## ip20 (Dec 16, 2021)

@IoannisGutevas Keep it up! Loved reading your story, your progress and the comments and advice by forum members in this thread.


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## davidson (Dec 16, 2021)

IoannisGutevas said:


> Hello,
> 
> I started this post in 2017, my latest reply was in 2018 which feels like a lifetime away...
> 
> ...


That's awesome, congrats!


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## IoannisGutevas (Jan 9, 2022)

@ip20 , @davidson Thank you!


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