# The genius of the original Star Trek composers (Courage, Kaplan, Steiner, Duning, Fried)



## dcoscina (Feb 23, 2021)

The stuff these guys wrote not only was harmonically brilliant, but they only had 25 (max) players at any given time. Their creative workarounds while still providing a full, exciting musical tapestry is just unreal.


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## dcoscina (Feb 23, 2021)

I'd like to point out that composers with smaller orchestras used to implement ornamentation to thicken up and liven up the sound. Fingered tremolos also have a nice way of upping the activity and fill out the harmonies.. Neither seem used very much anymore... pity.


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## Dr.Quest (Feb 23, 2021)

I totally agree with that! Amazing guys that stretched a small budget and made great iconic music. Some of those Leitmotifs were indeed genius!


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## dcoscina (Feb 23, 2021)

Dr.Quest said:


> I totally agree with that! Amazing guys that stretched a small budget and made great iconic music. Some of those Leitmotifs were indeed genius!


They also knew orchestration and color. But it's those sumptuous harmonies that get me.


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## Dr.Quest (Feb 23, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> They also knew orchestration and color. But it's those sumptuous harmonies that get me.


They sure did. The harmonies are so great. They could take any of those musical motifs and change them around quite drastically. Still listen to that stuff quite often.


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## chrisr (Feb 23, 2021)

Could not agree more - it's exquisite!


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## emasters (Feb 23, 2021)

Fully agree -- in a similar way (with a different genre), been listening lately to the music from the TV Show "The Wild Wild West." from the same time period as Star Trek. While the show is very dated, what the composers did working with orchestration limitations, is impressive. There's probably a lesson learned associated with this.... not what you have (in terms of gear, players) but the creative use one makes within those limitations.


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## José Herring (Feb 23, 2021)

Brilliant scores no doubt.


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## dcoscina (Feb 23, 2021)

Dr.Quest said:


> They sure did. The harmonies are so great. They could take any of those musical motifs and change them around quite drastically. Still listen to that stuff quite often.


I'm hearing influences like Bartok in these scores. I'm surprised at the lack of triadic and diatonic-based writing. Lots of jazz extensions and aug/dim chords. There was material that is highly chromatic. Absolutely a joy to listen to. A feast for the ears!


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## Dr.Quest (Feb 23, 2021)

Another great composer from the same time period of TV is Earle Hagen, composer of the I Spy series from 1965-68. His stuff is phenomenal! Since the series was global he worked a lot of different instrumentation into his stuff. Another genius!


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## ed buller (Feb 23, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I'm hearing influences like Bartok in these scores. I'm surprised at the lack of triadic and diatonic-based writing. Lots of jazz extensions and aug/dim chords. There was material that is highly chromatic. Absolutely a joy to listen to. A feast for the ears!


yeah these boys really knew their stuff. Steiner for me is king. His homage to Stravinsky's Firebird Lullaby with Mirror Mirror was insanely good. AS was the Zap the cap stings and his music for the Corbomite maneuver.....ended up everywhere 

Courage was a genius too; His brooding chord decents a good 15 years ahead of Indy's ark theme: 






But my fav is the haunting bass flute melody from the Pilot for Vina......


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## José Herring (Feb 23, 2021)

ed buller said:


> yeah these boys really knew their stuff. Steiner for me is king. His homage to Stravinsky's Firebird Lullaby with Mirror Mirror was insanely good. AS was the Zap the cap stings and his music for the Corbomite maneuver.....ended up everywhere
> 
> Courage was a genius too; His brooding chord decents a good 15 years ahead of Indy's ark theme:
> 
> ...


Yeah, film/tv composers really needed some serious composing chops to make things work.


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## JohnG (Feb 23, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I'm hearing influences like Bartok in these scores. I'm surprised at the lack of triadic and diatonic-based writing. Lots of jazz extensions and aug/dim chords. There was material that is highly chromatic. Absolutely a joy to listen to. A feast for the ears!


true.

but you used a bad word in your title. You are dead to me.


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## tonaliszt (Feb 23, 2021)

An excellent analysis here, very much worth checking out: 
A truly Wagnerian approach - the music echos everything in the shot! 

Lots of Herrmann influence in the Steiner music - my favorite of the bunch.

The small ensembles are such a unique sound.


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## dcoscina (Feb 23, 2021)

JohnG said:


> true.
> 
> but you used a bad word in your title. You are dead to me.


Hmm you must have imagined it. No expletives here sir. 😜


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## Altauria (Feb 23, 2021)

Still remember this in the theaters...made me feel so validated.


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## JohnG (Feb 23, 2021)

tonaliszt said:


> An excellent analysis here


it is indeed an excellent analysis, but does anyone feel that Mr. von Schroeck works out a bit too much for a composer?


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## dcoscina (Feb 23, 2021)

JohnG said:


> it is indeed an excellent analysis, but does anyone feel that Mr. von Schroeck works out a bit too much for a composer?


Dude is ripped.


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## dcoscina (Feb 23, 2021)

Altauria said:


> Still remember this in the theaters...made me feel so validated.



I love that scene and, well, the whole movie. The bathroom scene with the dizzy gilespie music was classic


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 23, 2021)

Awesome thread!

I just started (re)watching the original Star Trek series with my wife. She is Italian and has never seen it before. She foolishly agreed to let me show her a few episodes!  

My ultimate goal is to work up to watching ST2:Wrath of Khan. In the meantime, I get to soak up the great music in this thread!


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## Aaron Sapp (Feb 23, 2021)

Haven't really seen the original series, but Dennis McCarthy constantly blows me away with his emotional writing for TNG. Seriously underappreciated composer.


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## ed buller (Feb 24, 2021)

Aaron Sapp said:


> Haven't really seen the original series, but Dennis McCarthy constantly blows me away with his emotional writing for TNG. Seriously underappreciated composer.


oh you are missing out. Some of the finest telly ever !

best

ed


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## dcoscina (Feb 24, 2021)

Aaron Sapp said:


> Haven't really seen the original series, but Dennis McCarthy constantly blows me away with his emotional writing for TNG. Seriously underappreciated composer.


From what I've heard, Nick Redman's mandate to TNG composers was to keep it as subdued as possible. Kind of the antithesis to the original series music mandate. I didn't mind St:TNG but it wasn't terribly captivating stuff. I think Ron Jones did some amazing work back then but some of it was thrown out because it was perhaps too good.. 

Given the limitations, yes, TNG had good music, but nothing like the classic series to be honest.


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## dcoscina (Feb 24, 2021)

You know what would be a fun exercise? Writing a piece with the same instrument resources that these guys had. I'm really into writing for chamber orchestra anyhow lately (more realistic chance of the music getting performed!) so once a few projects clear up, I might to do this for fun


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## bbunker (Feb 24, 2021)

Just wanted to point out a misspelling on your title - unless I'm missing a beat, it shouldn't be "Durning" but "Duning" - as in George Duning, right?

Lots of sketches available of his at his archive at the American Heritage Center at the University of Wyoming, fyi...


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## dcoscina (Feb 24, 2021)

tonaliszt said:


> An excellent analysis here, very much worth checking out:
> A truly Wagnerian approach - the music echos everything in the shot!
> 
> Lots of Herrmann influence in the Steiner music - my favorite of the bunch.
> ...





bbunker said:


> Just wanted to point out a misspelling on your title - unless I'm missing a beat, it shouldn't be "Durning" but "Duning" - as in George Duning, right?
> 
> Lots of sketches available of his at his archive at the American Heritage Center at the University of Wyoming, fyi...


Fixed thanks


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## gussunkri (Feb 24, 2021)

Great thread! I discovered a lot of good music today thanks to you.


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## ed buller (Feb 24, 2021)

So Question: Whom amongst you can point to a specific discipline ,technique that is used in these scores. I find that music in American TV, especially the fantasy , science fiction genre, particularly exciting and colorful. From mid fifties to the late sixties; Shows Like:

Voyage to the Bottom Of the Sea
The Time Tunnel
Lost In Space
Star Trek
Land of the Giants

etc

They all used a rosta of composers , some Big names too...and yet there is a style that is consistent across them all. But I struggle to put it into words....Its a kinda Melodic Atonal Hybrid. It's wonderful !!!!!!!!!!!....i would pay CASH MONEY to learn how to apply liberally ...but alas it eludes me. 

There are a few film scores that have it too: The Satan Bug is a perfect example. Jeff Bond wrote a great book on Star Trek music but it didn't really deal with the notes themselves....that's the tricky part.

I am very curious what the HIVE thinks on this as it's obvious many of us realise how truly stunning this music is

thoughts ?

best

ed


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## Dr.Quest (Feb 24, 2021)

tonaliszt said:


> An excellent analysis here, very much worth checking out:
> A truly Wagnerian approach - the music echos everything in the shot!
> 
> Lots of Herrmann influence in the Steiner music - my favorite of the bunch.
> ...



This is so good! Thanks for posting!


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 25, 2021)

ed buller said:


> Its a kinda *Melodic Atonal Hybrid*. It's wonderful !!!!!!!!!!!....i would pay CASH MONEY to learn how to apply liberally ...but alas it eludes me.


Hi Ed, do you mean this kind of sound?


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## ed buller (Feb 25, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Hi Ed, do you mean this kind of sound?



No not really. That is uniquely williams TBH. 

e


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## ed buller (Feb 25, 2021)

there very similar in terms of style

e


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 25, 2021)

Thanks, Ed. It all sounds kind of similar to me, but I am still learning about this atonal music. 

For sure, there is no discernable 'tune'... but there definitely something melodic. It's like a series of smaller musical statements stitched together into a larger piece. There is enough consistency that you can follow it, but it's certainly not predictable.

I grew up listening to all of this stuff. In fact, I just watched 'The Man Trap' the other night and was thinking how cool the music was. But I've never tried to study it musically before, so this is fascinating.


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## ed buller (Feb 25, 2021)

It IS fascinating. It's a unique "HOLLYWOOD" musical vocabulary that was widely used for about 20 years. There is some consistency too it . I truly believe that a lot of what I am hearing was a shared musical lexicon that these composer knew about and used continuously. Interestingly there is a parallel movement happening in England around the same time. But there the music was a little jazzier and lighter in tone. TV music from Barry Gray and Film Music from Ron Goodwin:





there's lot's of Hexatonic and Octatonic sonority here; Also poly chords a plenty . Barry was very fond of those. He was taught by a Bartok student too which explains a lot !

Best

ed


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## Henu (Feb 26, 2021)

Altauria said:


> Still remember this in the theaters...made me feel so validated.




Every time I hear that Star Trek piece, I can't help thinking of this. :D


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## tonaliszt (Feb 28, 2021)

ed buller said:


> there's lot's of Hexatonic and Octatonic sonority here; Also poly chords a plenty . Barry was very fond of those. He was taught by a Bartok student too which explains a lot !


To me all of these seem to have some relation to pitch sets - particularly some Octatonic subsets which Bartok would have liked (it is all extremely interval-based in the melodic material). The main thing is the process in which the pieces were composed, a very specific way one would score to picture on paper. If you can find Jack Smally's book Composing for Film, he does a good job laying out how this process works. He also lays out simply a few of the non-tonal concepts that would have been used.


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## ed buller (Feb 28, 2021)

tonaliszt said:


> To me all of these seem to have some relation to pitch sets - particularly some Octatonic subsets which Bartok would have liked (it is all extremely interval-based in the melodic material). The main thing is the process in which the pieces were composed, a very specific way one would score to picture on paper. If you can find Jack Smally's book Composing for Film, he does a good job laying out how this process works. He also lays out simply a few of the non-tonal concepts that would have been used.


I have Jack's book. Also a book by Russell Garcia who wrote a bunch of TV and film music that has quite a lot about serialist techniques that were popular. I suspect your right that pitch sets played a big part. I just have a feeling that there's some great recipes and musical tricks these dudes used a lot that has disappeared over time!....

best

ed

​


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## tonaliszt (Feb 28, 2021)

ed buller said:


> I just have a feeling that there's some great recipes and musical tricks these dudes used a lot that has disappeared over time!....


Yes - impossible to argue with that. I think some of it can clearly be traced back to academic approaches of the time (the atonal processes), but the missing stuff is certainly in the Wagnerian influence - many of the ex-German film composers that would have been influences/teachers of these composers were never taken seriously by schools and the processes were never written down!


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## Ray Cole (May 2, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> From what I've heard, Nick Redman's mandate to TNG composers was to keep it as subdued as possible. Kind of the antithesis to the original series music mandate. I didn't mind St:TNG but it wasn't terribly captivating stuff. I think Ron Jones did some amazing work back then but some of it was thrown out because it was perhaps too good..
> 
> Given the limitations, yes, TNG had good music, but nothing like the classic series to be honest.


Not a big deal, but just to set the record straight: I think you mean "Rick Berman" not "Nick Redman." Berman was the executive producer of most of the early Star Trek spin-off series--he more or less took over running the Trek Universe as Roddenberry's health declined and then after his passing. Nick Redman is a soundtrack album producer and documentary filmmaker, not involved with Star Trek as far as I know.


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## Ray Cole (May 2, 2021)

tonaliszt said:


> An excellent analysis here, very much worth checking out:
> A truly Wagnerian approach - the music echos everything in the shot!
> 
> Lots of Herrmann influence in the Steiner music - my favorite of the bunch.
> ...



I love that von Schroek analysis of Kaplan's "Doomsday Machine" music! I don't understand why Paramount/CBS made him stop. They should have partnered with him to release an official set of episode music analysis documentaries for the Star Trek episodes with the most interesting scores. I haven't seen ANYONE else analyze the music in these classic shows to such depth. It's a tremendous loss that we aren't getting his insights into the music from other episodes.

I still have hope that one of the score-publishing companies (OMNI, etc.) will release the scores for some of these, and that might perhaps present an opportunity to have von Schroek provide analysis notes as part of the publication.

He has one other, much shorter and much more informal video on the original Star Trek music, but the density and depth of his insights are amazing:


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