# How do you cope with the fact...



## tokatila (Jan 30, 2017)

that even if you really try your best, all you can compose is substandard derivative garbage?


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## Paul T McGraw (Jan 30, 2017)

Substandard might be a valid criticism, but I wish all composers would stop beating themselves over the head about being "derivative". Derivative is an overused criticism. Of all of John William's music, Star Wars is arguably the most derivative. Many have pointed out the similarities to King's Row, the Planets, and Sibelius. Yet Star Wars made Williams a household name, is still performed in concert regularly, and is loved by millions of fans.

So by all means, be derivative . . . and in the process you might just write something wonderful.


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## mc_deli (Jan 30, 2017)

My father got a review in 1977 that included "shabby and derivative"...
I see "substandard" as a step up!
I've got you in my sights!


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## Barrie B (Jan 30, 2017)

Excuse me - I've had a very nice career writing substandard derivative garbage thank you very much....

People seem to love it...


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## Ashermusic (Jan 30, 2017)

I made my peace with it around 1974.


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## Prockamanisc (Jan 30, 2017)

How do physicists feel to know that all their work is derivative? Mathematicians? You're taking your rightful place in the evolution of ideas. You should only be ashamed if you're not doing anything original with what you've been handed through lineage, or not making the best of what knowledge is available to you.

The book "Creativity: Flow and the Psychology of Discovery and Invention" explains this nicely.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 30, 2017)

I don't quite see it that way.


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## jacobthestupendous (Jan 30, 2017)

Prockamanisc said:


> How do physicists feel to know that all their work is derivative? Mathematicians?


Derivatives are integral in mathematics--especially Calculus.


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## Rob Elliott (Jan 30, 2017)

"Lesser artists borrow, great artists steal." Igor Stravinsky... Igor knew what he was doing... and don't forget everything we 'imitate' has to go through OUR filter. Comes out the other end sounding like US - to varying degrees. Imitate more than one composer and it becomes a pot stew in your creative brain - inching you closer and closer to your own sound. Ignoring the greats before you is like putting your head into musical sand.


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## afterlight82 (Feb 11, 2017)

Almost all music is derivative...of course it is. It's just that after a point the complexity of our human experiences yields a result that you can't pinpoint back to "where it came from", because it's so myriad and varied. At that point, we generally just say "screw it" and call it "original". Or someone doesn't know or care about the origin and just listens to it for what it is. I doubt many people sat in Star Wars in the late 70's and thought "hey, that's Stravinskian" but that didn't take away from the enjoyment of what JW had to say.

It's like language. If you write a poem in English, the words aren't original unless you type gibberish; otherwise you're using words, sentences, grammar, constructs in a way that can be understood. That doesn't mean you can't SAY something new or pertinent using those words, sentences, grammar...the building blocks of language. Same with the building blocks of music...just because something is tonal just means that it is using a particular grammar of music that is well-trodden...that doesn't mean you can't say something new with it, or even that something that is an idea that is well known, just expressed a little differently, is de facto of lesser worth...


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## Rctec (Feb 11, 2017)

I've had "Servicable and Ordinary..."
-Hz-


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## trumpoz (Feb 11, 2017)

I love this thread - thankyou everyone for posting!


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## chibear (Feb 12, 2017)

EVERYTHING I do is substandard.......Just ask my wife.


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## jononotbono (Feb 12, 2017)

Yesterday I had a friend pop round for a Cup of Tea (I know, how English) and I had something I'm working on playing. He said "What the F**k is this? It's really unsettling. Horrible"


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## KEnK (Feb 12, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> I had something I'm working on playing. He said "What the F**k is this? It's really unsettling. Horrible"


It must be excellent. That kind of reaction is a good thing in my book.


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## jononotbono (Feb 12, 2017)

KEnK said:


> It must be excellent. That kind of reaction is a good thing in my book.



Haha! Well, it is supposed to be very unnerving so I guess I'm on the right track. I guess the worst reaction is none at all!


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## Morodiene (Feb 19, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Haha! Well, it is supposed to be very unnerving so I guess I'm on the right track. I guess the worst reaction is none at all!


Right, because composers, like little children, feel that any attention is good attention.


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## galactic orange (Feb 19, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> "What the F**k is this? It's really unsettling. Horrible"



A reaction of "Horrible" is better than "It sounds good" or "It's fine" "Don't change a thing!", etc.
Depending on your intentions, "ordinary" might feel like a punch to the gut though.


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## D-Mott (Feb 19, 2017)

The worst reaction is no reaction


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## Morodiene (Feb 20, 2017)

galactic orange said:


> A reaction of "Horrible" is better than "It sounds good" or "It's fine" "Don't change a thing!", etc.
> Depending on your intentions, "ordinary" might feel like a punch to the gut though.


Personally, I don't care if someone thinks what I wrote is ordinary. Who says that, first of all? Most of the time it's people who are jealous or just like being in a position of power by belittling someone else's work.

The people whose critiques I really trust would never say that. They'd be specific about parts that may be lacking something to maintain the listener's interest, but they don't hurl insults. That's because at least they understand that even if what I wrote is "derivative garbage", it took me a lot of work to get that derivative garbage. 

They also understand that usually the difference between derivative garbage and genius is just a bit of editing.


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## J-M (Feb 20, 2017)

I write music because it makes me happy. If somebody likes it, cool. If not, too bad.


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## Fab (Feb 20, 2017)

D-Mott said:


> The worst reaction is no reaction



like when parents stop telling you off for doing something you know is wrong.


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## givemenoughrope (Feb 20, 2017)

Wasn't it Stravinsky that said (something like) the excitement or any satisfaction derived from composing was in finding the next note...? So yea, just do that.


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## sazema (Feb 20, 2017)

MrLinssi said:


> I write music because it makes me happy. If somebody likes it, cool. If not, too bad.


Exactly. Wise words.


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## EvanArnett (Feb 20, 2017)

The discussion here in general reminds me of something I've been thinking about. Our culture has a lot of weird ideas about creative work that we take for granted. I think some of these ideas do more harm than good and are worth reevaluating. To illustrate, I'm going to make myself a sandwich for lunch. What if I treated that work the same way some artists go on about their creative work? 

"Okay, I have to make the BEST SANDWICH EVER MADE, or how will I eat it and survive? My friend posted a picture of a sandwich on facebook earlier, and it looked so good. WHY CAN'T MY SANDWICH LOOK LIKE HERS?? Oh no, what if someone else doesn't think my sandwich is any good, and wishes it was different? if I make a bad sandwich, it means I'M BAD! How can I possibly live up to the french chefs of 300 years ago who came from completely different circumstances? I need to go to culinary school and learn more about sandwich theory, otherwise I can never make a REAL sandwich! I should just give up making sandwiches and go hungry!"

Pretty absurd, right? Now, what if we flip it around, forget about "high art" for a second, and imagine treating composing more like making lunch:

"I'm going to do the best I can with my current ingredients, tools and knowledge, try to enjoy the process of making it and experiencing the final result. I'm going to try hard and I hope it's good. If it doesn't turn out, I might be somewhat disappointed, but I'll just try to learn from it and do better next time. As long as it gets done and serves its purpose, it doesn't matter how it compares to anyone else's. The final result has literally nothing to do with my worth as a human being."

Of course the quality of the work matters, but not in any abstract way. If your goal is to a professional, the real question is- is your work keeping your clients happy and keeping the paychecks coming in? If you aren't trying to be a professional, you have the luxury of choosing your own goals, and there's no point in choosing goals that would make you unhappy with your own work or ruin your fun.

When I started writing professionally I started to realize I was making myself crazy with expectations, that getting the work done was the real goal, and treating writing as a craft instead of an "art" made me much happier.


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## Deleted member 422019 (Feb 20, 2017)

tokatila said:


> that even if you really try your best, all you can compose is substandard derivative garbage?



Good composers know they're good at what they do. It doesn't mean every piece written is of equal quality, nor does it mean that the work produced at age 15 is going to be as good as the work produced at age 50. But talented people know they are talented and work hard to develop the skills to express that talent. If we all quit because the standards that Mozart, Bach, Beethoven and Mahler set are incredibly high, the world would be a lot poorer, don't you think?

Creativity is the birthright of every human being. If one has talent, good education and training, is highly motivated and has faith in their own imagination, good work will be produced. Numerous people on this site are evidence of that.


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 20, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Yesterday I had a friend pop round for a Cup of Tea (I know, how English) and I had something I'm working on playing. He said "What the F**k is this? It's really unsettling. Horrible"



Somehow I get the feeling you really LIKED that review!


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## Dave Connor (Feb 20, 2017)

_Sometimes I think my music is all rot. (_Stravinsky to Artur Rubinstein on a train ride.) He was also worried about his finances at the time to which Rubinstein suggested concertizing (as he was doing to earn a living) which the composer began to do with much success.

Beethoven thought his piano music was _clunky. _No doubt in comparison to Mozart's beautiful flowing compositions for the instrument.

Mozart suffered a personal crisis questioning his abilities as a composer after encountering J.S. Bach's music. No doubt feeling dwarfed by the towering achievements and supreme mastery of his friend J.C. Bach's father.

I think it's natural to question one's self in any number of ways and particularly something that is output directly from your inner self for all the world to see such as music. The fact that criticizing your work is a main ingredient while in the process of doing it - as well as afterward - emphasizes it's potential flaws even more (i.e. being your own worst critic is a part of the process of creating art.)

We all have to decide whether to hang in or not.


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## jononotbono (Feb 20, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Somehow I get the feeling you really LIKED that review!



I'll tell you if I get the job!


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 21, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> I'll tell you if I get the job!



I hope you do, my friend.


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## novaburst (Feb 23, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> t took me a lot of work to get that derivative garbage



If you put a lot of work into your piece believe me it will not come out as garbage, 

This is the key and often I get tripped becuase of it, not knowing the amount of work that is needed to make some thing even sound close to good. 

Hard work sways produces positive results, 

Little work and little effort produces poor results,

Hard work means you will do your best to learn the notes tone feel and make it sound good all with in your scope of knowledge.

Little work means you just don't care how it turns out.

Give it all you got if you love what your doing, 

I have listened to some great musical pieces on this forum, and else where, I will never understand the great sacrifices, time effort, and difficulty these composers put into there work, how much critical remarks they have recieved, how many negative responses they recieved, but now today we call them the greatest of our time, is it becuase they stood the test of time.

Never give up just keep pushing if it's what you want to do.


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## Morodiene (Feb 23, 2017)

novaburst said:


> If you put a lot of work into your piece believe me it will not come out as garbage,
> 
> This is the key and often I get tripped becuase of it, not knowing the amount of work that is needed to make some thing even sound close to good.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%...and *I* don't think of my work as "derivative garbage" but some might. If anything, though, those that tend to be critical and overly negative about it should stop and consider the work that someone put into it. Even if it's not the amount of work necessary, it may seem like a lot to them, wherever they are in the process of learning how to compose.


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## novaburst (Feb 23, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> wherever they are in the process of learning how to compose.



It was you and others on this forum that gave some great advice and helped me in the right direction when I posted a part of my composition, I am still very great full for that.

In the process of learning I think for me especially and I am sure others can identify in that one of the most difficultest parts of composition is learning to give your all and your best effort in the available time you have made or set apart for you music,

I soon found out that very quickly that music is indeed alive and very reflective no matter how you approach it, music has away of showing and reflecting what kind of effect was made to create it and in some funny way it reflects the type of attitude the composer has towards his and her composition.

I think when some criticism is made all be it constructive or negative some will base there criticism on the attitude or vibe they pick up from the composition and can sence the attitude and what kind of effort was made to produce it.


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## Morodiene (Feb 24, 2017)

novaburst said:


> It was you and others on this forum that gave some great advice and helped me in the right direction when I posted a part of my composition, I am still very great full for that.
> 
> In the process of learning I think for me especially and I am sure others can identify in that one of the most difficultest parts of composition is learning to give your all and your best effort in the available time you have made or set apart for you music,
> 
> ...


Definitely, but there is a maturing that happens in all music study. From my experience watching students learn, I can see that once in a while, a student "gets it" and is ready to devote that kind of time to advance. But before that, they don't understand that you get out of it what you put into it. And they're not belittling the work that those who understand do, they just don't happen to be there in their maturity. 

So perhaps some who criticize negatively do so because they can tell the person hasn't put in the work, but more often than not I think it's because the person criticizing may have issues unrelated to the work being criticized. And I'm just talking about disparaging remarks that are not with the intent of helping the listener. On the internet, it's even harder to discern a person's intent.


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 24, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> Definitely, but there is a maturing that happens in all music study. From my experience watching students learn, I can see that once in a while, a student "gets it" and is ready to devote that kind of time to advance. But before that, they don't understand that you get out of it what you put into it. And they're not belittling the work that those who understand do, they just don't happen to be there in their maturity.
> 
> So perhaps some who criticize negatively do so because they can tell the person hasn't put in the work, but more often than not I think it's because the person criticizing may have issues unrelated to the work being criticized. And I'm just talking about disparaging remarks that are not with the intent of helping the listener. On the internet, it's even harder to discern a person's intent.



Many times it's jealousy and boredom. I've seen folks in manifold forums getting borderline manic over new releases by so and so developer after I just saw the same people buying up purportedly "all inclusive" libraries the week and/or month before. I think many of those buyers are looking for something to make music for them (which today's sample-happy world does make somewhat possible). I don't mean to condescend to anyone, but I've noticed that most of the folks going into raptures over new products from developers they've already bought from at length don't show up in the member's compositions part of this forum. In fact, unless they're putting up "legato" tracks and videos, one wonders exactly what they're doing with all this sample power...besides having yet another reason to spend money. I think those people are the ones who end up being the most vehement, ubiquitous critics. In the last case, the only people benefitting are the developers...but people like me are getting wiser in regard to that. The repackaging seams are becoming more and more evident.

Because it's not really about learning music and making a musical name all one's own to those folks...it's about dreaming you're a composer, buying up all these things with the ephemeral hope you'll one day stumble upon a way of properly implementing them into your own creation and "who knows?" becoming rich (it's the "who knows?" which really reinforces the unrealistic viewpoint). Thus, when compositions pop up which so obviously trump anything these folks are capable of, then everyone's (deservedly) shattered dreams have coincidentally found their projection. Incompetence, willed ignorance, indolence, all are in evidence when one just takes a little time to read youtube comments (or heck, some of the critiques here, though this forum less than most others).

I must take the time to mention that I have absolutely no problem and indeed encourage hobbyists to enjoy what they're doing...I'm all for people doing what they love, even if their goals are very much different from mine. I simply have a problem with people who buy up all these libraries, do nothing notable with them, and use that fact to blame others through excessive, unproductive criticism. That sucks and is wrong in my opinion. The only people who end up benefitting from that last are the developers...though I personally am seeing the repackaging seams more and more from the same as time goes on.


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## Arbee (Feb 24, 2017)

The only thing that ever matters to me is that I can sense improvement in what I do over time (whether that's in the composing, the arranging, the performing/programming, the recording, the mixing or the mastering .....
hey what happened to the days when I only needed to do one or two of these? ).


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## Morodiene (Feb 24, 2017)

@Parsifal666 Very insightful, and I think you're onto something. When a person has unrealistic expectations and then they are faced with that fact, it can often result in a negative emotional reaction - often directed at the person who showed that to them. 

OT: But even if jealousy isn't a factor, I think people like to justify the money spent on something, and of course, they like to think their purchase was well-thought out. I fall into this too. I usually like the things I spend a lot of money on and will defend my position with some vehemence unless faced with obvious facts about why my decision was faulty. That's human nature, and so I don't begrudge people talking up the things they bought. But if I'm seeking advice about what I should buy, I do have to sift through that and consider only the facts of what I need and if this purchase will meet that.


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 24, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> @Parsifal666
> 
> OT: But even if jealousy isn't a factor, I think people like to justify the money spent on something, and of course, they like to think their purchase was well-thought out. I fall into this too. I usually like the things I spend a lot of money on and will defend my position with some vehemence unless faced with obvious facts about why my decision was faulty. That's human nature, and so I don't begrudge people talking up the things they bought. But if I'm seeking advice about what I should buy, I do have to sift through that and consider only the facts of what I need and if this purchase will meet that.



I think this is also a significant factor, I see what appears to be many people championing certain things they've purchased, in many and varied, ultimately transparent ways.


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## novaburst (Feb 24, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> because they can tell the person hasn't put in the work, but more often than not I think it's because the person criticizing may have issues



I agree this problem of defaming is a very difficult issue to deal with especially when the one practicing it is in a high or authoritiv position, they can make life pretty touch.

Normally that situation it can be pretty tough for the ones that are truly putting inthere effort to get better.


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 24, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I think this is also a significant factor, I see what appears to be many people championing certain things they've purchased, in many and varied, ultimately transparent ways.



After thinking about this...I've been bitten by the buying bug too many times, so I kind of worry that others will do like that. I feel like I have musical instruments/libraries/effects that I don't need, and regret their in-the-heat-of-purchase. I don't want others to fall victim to that. Knee jerk decisions.


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## JTJohnson (Mar 6, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> After thinking about this...I've been bitten by the buying bug too many times, so I kind of worry that others will do like that. I feel like I have musical instruments/libraries/effects that I don't need, and regret their in-the-heat-of-purchase. I don't want others to fall victim to that. Knee jerk decisions.


Agreed. Less is more, especially if you choose quality over quantity in your libraries. There is so many opinions on this forum that it could make anyone think there libraries are inadequate and end up buying all of them on the market.

Like real instruments (and i play them), libraries are subjective and one that will work for one person will not work for another. It doesnt mean one is better than the other but one could work better than the other for a certain person. All of the top libraries are very very good and you are not going to go far wrong with any. Like many things, it's what you do with then that counts.

JJ


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## Jacob Cadmus (Mar 6, 2017)

My derivative garbage is usually the score cues that my clients actually praise, because it sounds like their temp...


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