# The new HS update is GREAT!



## Dan Mott (Apr 27, 2011)

The volumes between the sustaines are awesome and it's much less of a pain dealing with it now. Before I'd be playing with my expression setting for hours to get it right, and now..... LOVELY.

Soon, I really need to do a user review on a screencast program.

Anway. Thanks to whom contributed to the volume adjustments.


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## Rob Elliott (Apr 27, 2011)

Dan-Jay @ Wed Apr 27 said:


> The volumes between the sustaines are awesome and it's much less of a pain dealing with it now. Before I'd be playing with my expression setting for hours to get it right, and now..... LOVELY.
> 
> Soon, I really need to do a user review on a screencast program.
> 
> Anway. Thanks to whom contributed to the volume adjustments.


 Thanks Dan-Jay for the report. No 'new' issues (I am mid-way through a project). I'd love to update for reasons you stated as it costs me time but I don't want to make any new problems for myself. Thanks again for the report.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 27, 2011)

Yes, big improvement.


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## Rob Elliott (Apr 27, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 27 said:


> Yes, big improvement.




Thanks Jay - DL and installing now. Looking forward to this update.


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## OB.one (Apr 28, 2011)

Can't wait for your screencast Dan ! :wink: 

Best Regards from Paris

Olivier aka OB.one

http://www.myspace.com/obonemusic
http://soundcloud.com/lentresol-sound-studio


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## re-peat (Apr 28, 2011)

EastWest Lurker,

Would you please be so kind to forward the following little problem to EastWest:
http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_CelliStacctssmoRRx16.mov (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... oRRx16.mov)

As you'll hear (and see), the CelloStaccatissimoRRx16 patch has several notes which are poorly truncated, resulting in an undesirable second note, almost as an echo of the first one. (I know, this can be easily avoided by decreasing the note's length, but it is slightly annoying nonetheless. Besides, one shouldn't have to worry about note lengths when playing a staccatissimo patch, no?)

What I also don't quite understand is how it is possible to play an endless number of partially identical sounding notes, one after the other, with a patch which has, supposedly, 16 round robins. Could it be that these so-called 'round robins' are in fact made up of stacked samples (in 16 different combinations perhaps) rather than real 'Round Robins'? (This is not a criticism, I'm just curious.)

Many thanks in advance!

_


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## Dan Mott (Apr 28, 2011)

Sure, I'll get that screen cast going soon.

Aside from what re-repeat said (which I'm curious about too), this update feels like I'm working with a brand new library. It's great.

I also have my own issues with the staccatos, which I will review in my screencast so, it would be great, Jay, if you could look at it when it's up.

I certaintly do not regret paying 1500 for this, and I certaintly am not at all annoyed that I didn't wait for the price to go down. Worth every penny for me


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## rpaillot (Apr 28, 2011)

re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> EastWest Lurker,
> 
> Would you please be so kind to forward the following little problem to EastWest:
> http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_CelliStacctssmoRRx16.mov (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... oRRx16.mov)
> ...



This is how they did the RR on the staccatissimo patchs : They recorded phrases of 16 "16th notes" ( or 8 th , depends of the tempo ) , then they cut each of the notes of the phrase. This way you can either play the staccatissimo at the same tempo the phrases have been recorded, or faster. And this sounds much more realistic than sampling each staccatissimo one after the other.

You could also play slower , but then you would hear that slightly annoying "cut" effect.

I believe the only patchs that are not recorded as phrases are the staccato one.


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## re-peat (Apr 28, 2011)

Rpaillot,

Thanks, but that's not what I'm hearing. Whenever I play a sequence of the same staccatissimo note (with identical or similar velocities), there's always one 'layer' or 'component' in the sound which gets repeated _identically_ (just check the example in my previous post). Which leads me to believe that these staccatissimo patches are somehow made up out of stacked samples.
I mean, if these were real round robins, we shouldn't be hearing the same poorly truncated sample more than once when playing anything less than 16 identical notes, no?
But as it is, those exact same samples keep repeating and repeating, no matter how few or how many times you hit the same note. Hardly round robin, is it?

Here's http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_CelliStssmm.mp3 (another example): just a simple repeating C#2 (one of those poorly truncated ones), with velocities around 124. Surely, there's some stacking going on here? One layer of the sound does indeed change with every note, in true round robin fashion, but there's another layer (the badly truncated one) which uses the exact same sample throughout the entire sequence ... 

_


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## rpaillot (Apr 28, 2011)

re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> Rpaillot,
> 
> Thanks, but that's not what I'm hearing. Whenever I play a sequence of the same staccatissimo note (with identical or similar velocities), there's always one 'layer' or 'component' in the sound which gets repeated _identically_ (just check the example in my previous post). Which leads me to believe that these staccatissimo patches are somehow made up out of stacked samples.
> I mean, if these were real round robins, we shouldn't be hearing the same poorly truncated sample more than once when playing anything less than 16 identical notes, no?
> ...



You're right. I hear only 2 round robins there.
I think it's a programming bug. Lets report it to EW


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## re-peat (Apr 28, 2011)

rpaillot @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> Lets report it to EW


That's in fact what I'm busy doing with these posts, hoping that EastWest Lurker will forward their contents to EastWest. (I'm not a member at Soundsonline, and I fear I wouldn't be for very long if I were, anyway. And I've tried contacting Nick before here, via a PM — pointing out some minor programming flaws in earlier versions of HS —, but he never bothered to reply.)

Anyway, while I'm at it, I'd like to submit three more suggestions for a next HS update:

*(1) Make the 'Full Strings' patches a true ‘one patch’ preset* rather than a combination of four different patches. I ask, because I find it quite annoying having to always edit four patches (Basses, Celli, Violas and Violins2), instead of just one, when all I want to do is, say, change the attack or the release of the ensemble. It's a minor thing, but I hope it can be changed anyway.

*(2)* Make it somehow possible to *choose the desired microphone perspective prior to loading a patch*. I’ve lost quite a bit of time having to first load the ‘Main’ perspective, when what I really wanted was the ‘Close’ perspective … (I know, I could do it myself: load every patch with every possible persepective and save each one seperately, but really, I don’t think this should be up to the user. So, a whole new folder of patches, organised according to Mic perspective, would be most welcome, I feel.)

*(3) Correct the tuning of the violas. *This is actually the biggest problem I have with HS and here’s an illustration of what I mean: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas.mp3 To be honest, I’m really very surprised this hasn’t come up before (or maybe it has and I didn’t notice it), but some of those HS Violas samples are really terribly out of tune. And not in a nice ‘human’ way, but in a very unpleasant and unmusical way. A real shame, as these violas can have a truly terrific sound.

_


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## bryla (Apr 28, 2011)

re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> *(3) Correct the tuning of the violas. *This is actually the biggest problem I have with HS and here’s an illustration of what I mean: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas.mp3


Ouch......


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## Simon Ravn (Apr 28, 2011)

rpaillot @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Rpaillot,
> ...



... or maybe (just maybe), they didn't really record that many repetitions but 16xRR sounds cool on the spec sheet... It wouldn't exactly be a first for a sample developer to not disclose the full truth 8) Not jumping to any conclusions yet, but either way it wouldn't surprise me.


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## noiseboyuk (Apr 28, 2011)

Blimey, that IS out!

One more big update, Play 3, another sale, then perhaps I'll start thinking about it. The tone has always been magnificent...


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## stevenson-again (Apr 28, 2011)

> (3) Correct the tuning of the violas. This is actually the biggest problem I have with HS and here’s an illustration of what I mean: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas.mp3 I’m actually really surprised this hasn’t come up before (or maybe it has and I didn’t notice it), but some of those HS Violas are really terribly out of tune. And not in a nice ‘human’ way, but in a very unpleasant and unmusical way. A real shame, as these violas can have a truly terrific sound.



actually it has come up before.

i sent in a report regarding the violas and the cellos to a lesser extent being a bit flat.

Here is a small shoot out between LASS and HS. For intonation just skip to the last chord of the cue and compare. you'll note that the horn is a touch bright but the LASS version is more centred so we get away with it - not so the violas. i guess we could tune it with the pitch bend, but HS is already pretty fussy. otherwise while different, i don't there is much to split between them. in this particular instance i personally prefer the LASS version by a hair.

http://idisk.mac.com/rohan.stevenson/Public/stuff/TheFairytaleEndsLASS.mp3 (Fairytale Ends LASS)

http://idisk.mac.com/rohan.stevenson/Public/stuff/TheFairytaleEndsHS.mp3 (Fairytale Ends HS)

btw - if the files don't play copy the URL into the URL for VLC or quicktime.


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## robibla (Apr 28, 2011)

wow intonation on those HS violas are terrible.
stevenson what EQs you got going on your LASS? sounds nice.

P.S. stevenson your link to the HS version points to the same LASS version. But it didn't take rocket science to figure out what you called the HS one.


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## Pietro (Apr 28, 2011)

re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> *(3) Correct the tuning of the violas. *This is actually the biggest problem I have with HS



Yeah, I feel that this is the biggest flaw in this great instrument right now. And I wouldn't say it's only for violas.

Btw anyone else noticed how flat HS sounds? I mean the intonation. I tend to tune it by at least 5 cents up to match other instruments I use.

- Piotr


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## re-peat (Apr 28, 2011)

stevenson-again @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> (...) actually it has come up before. I sent in a report regarding the violas and the cellos to a lesser extent being a bit flat. (...)


Rohan,
Did you ever receive some reaction to that report? Some acknowledgement or other?

By the way, I prefer the LASS version of "The Fairytale Ends" as well. The LASS-sound also seems to blend or integrate better with the rest of your orchestra, to my ears.

The thing I will never understand is how a team consisting of Thomas Bergersen, Shawn Murphy, Doug and Nick — all highly respected and seasoned pro's if ever that label was applicable, surely? — would ever be prepared to release a viola section as flawed (tuning-wise) as the current HS-one is. I mean, I did hear within half an hour after installing the library that those violas were near unuseable ... (and have been avoiding them ever since). Even weirder is that I seem to remember Nick (or Doug) stating here, some time ago, to be actually rather proud of HS' tuning ...

_


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## Gerd Kaeding (Apr 28, 2011)

re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> rpaillot @ Thu Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Lets report it to EW
> ...



Hi re-peat ,

If you have issues , or discover flaws in an Eastwest library you can directly report these to their support team . 

Just register via this link and report your issues. Your support mail gets a ticket number , so you can always refer to that particular mail/report if they shouldn't answer your question.

https://soundsonline.securedcheckout.com/s.nl?sc=6&login=T&reset=T&newcust=T&noopt=T&redirect_count=1&did_javascript_redirect=T (https://soundsonline.securedcheckout.co ... redirect=T)

Best

Gerd


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## Justus (Apr 28, 2011)

re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> *(3) Correct the tuning of the violas. *This is actually the biggest problem I have with HS and here’s an illustration of what I mean: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas.mp3



Wow, so many good ears at EW and nobody notices?
OK, back to my LASS...


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## stevenson-again (Apr 28, 2011)

> P.S. stevenson your link to the HS version points to the same LASS version. But it didn't take rocket science to figure out what you called the HS one.



ach - thanks. fixed now.




> Rohan,
> Did you ever receive some reaction to that report? Some acknowledgement or other?



i had some acknowledgement from doug on this forum and i did receive some replies from EW that they had received my report.



> By the way, I prefer the LASS version of "The Fairytale Ends" as well. The LASS-sound also seems to blend or integrate better with the rest of your orchestra, to my ears.



there are times where HS sounds unbeatable. i mean, i would blown away if a real band sounded as good. but its only a handful of times and at others i really feel i get a bit more life out of LASS - it's more organic and natural. that's just a preference. the main thing is LASS is easier to use, and the legato sounds better to me.



> The thing I will never understand is how a team consisting of Thomas Bergersen, Shawn Murphy, Doug and Nick — all highly respected and seasoned pro's if ever that label was applicable, surely? — would ever be prepared to release a viola section as flawed (tuning-wise) as the current HS-one is. I mean, I did hear within half an hour of installing the library that those violas were near unuseable ... (and have been avoiding them ever since). Even weirder is that I seem to remember Nick (or Doug) stating here, some time ago, to be actually rather proud of HS' tuning ...


well - they didn't do any treatment of the tuning at all, which might be the mistake there. i don't know how they went about it, but i can sort of believe it because if you are only listening against strings your ears can be fooled. it's against the other instruments that intonation is shown up. it shouldn't be a biggy - fixing the tuning ought to be trivial - but my biggest problem is with PLAY as an interface because with a library as sophisticated as HS i would always want to be digging into it to do my own corrections and tweaks. i don't know any library where i wouldn't. i mean, who that is dead keen on getting the sound they want wouldn't?

you no they could save themselves a lot of effort by allowing some beta-testing amongst users or having user patch swapping facility. someone gets in there and fixes the tuning and then shares it with others. but PLAY gives you know chance to do that.


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## bryla (Apr 28, 2011)

btw none of you guys are using the HMS tuning if you are in Logic?

It analyses chords and roots and adjusts tuning accordingly - this fucks up tuning for some of my VI's


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## noiseboyuk (Apr 28, 2011)

I have a question for you HS users. Presumably, as Rohan says, most of you have been tweeking the legatos and tuning to make things sound ok. What happens as and when all this is properly fixed one year soon? Will your existing projects sound wrong as a result? Or do the original patches always still load in existing projects, and this will only affect the new?

And a random thought - I wonder if EW have been simply too ambitious with HS. They love to say how there's a million samples etc.... I mean, that's a nightmare, isn't it? 1 MILLION SAMPLES!!!! Every single one to be edited, tweeked, evened out with all the others, crossfades etc. It's easy for us to criticize from a distance, but I can only imagine the workload is astronomical.


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## stevenson-again (Apr 28, 2011)

> most of you have been tweeking the legatos and tuning to make things sound ok. What happens as and when all this is properly fixed one year soon? Will your existing projects sound wrong as a result? Or do the original patches always still load in existing projects, and this will only affect the new?



that's a good question. presumably they should give us new patches rather than updating existing ones for that exact reason.

what about giving users the chance to do some of the work for them? they just need the right interface.


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## re-peat (Apr 28, 2011)

stevenson-again @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> (...) but my biggest problem is with PLAY as an interface because with a library as sophisticated as HS i would always want to be digging into it to do my own corrections and tweaks (...)


I agree completely (next to HS’ tuning issues, that is). HS, and any other PLAY-library, would increase substantially in value and appeal if only users had a lot more control of how the individual samples are generated (sonically and dynamically) and how they respond to incoming midi instructions.

Which is, by the way, one of the reasons why I consider SISS for EXS still one of the best stringlibraries ever released: on top of its often unique sound (unmatched in the spiccato and staccato department), it can also be tweaked — and very easily so — to such an extent _as to really fit the musical phrase which I expect it to perform_. Something which is quite unthinkable with any library that is housed in as blunt and hermetic an environment as PLAY.

A truly professional tool, such as the combination HS-PLAY claims to be (a claim for a large part entirely justified, I must add), really should allow the serious user to dig in deep, as deep as sample level, to make any tweak or adjustment that is considered necessary to realize one’s music in the best possible way. 
At the moment, PLAY is built far too much on the _“We know what is best for you.”_-idea (the patronizing Microsoft philosophy, which borders on the insulting to any professional user), rather than an inspiring and respectful _“Here’s our samples. We’re very proud of them. Now it’s your turn. Be creative, do whatever you feel like doing, and go make some great stuff with them.”_-approach.

_


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## noiseboyuk (Apr 28, 2011)

I follow your logic, re-peat, but by a factor of a 100 I'd take a library that didn't need tweeking in the first place than one that constantly did 'cos they never had time to finish the job properly....


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## stevenson-again (Apr 28, 2011)

> I follow your logic, re-peat, but by a factor of a 100 I'd take a library that didn't need tweeking in the first place than one that constantly did 'cos they never had time to finish the job properly....



i'd only go a factor of 25 personally....


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## re-peat (Apr 28, 2011)

Guy,

A serious user should be offered at least the possibility to work with a supposedly professional library/tool/application in any way he or she wants. _"Don't care for deep editing? No problem. You don't have to. You can if you like — our interface has a dedicated tab for really deep-digging parameters —, but you don't have to if you're satisfied with how we've pre-programmed the presets. The option's there though." _That type of thing. Being denied that possibility in the first place, is what I find so frustrating. Especially with a library like HS. That you don't get this option with something like GPO, EWQLSO Silver or ViennaSE, I completely understand, but with Hollywood Strings _Diamond Edition_?

Take Logic. Even though seriously damaged, in my opinion, by that horrible trend of recent decades to infantilize all existing software, it still allows you to go down to its dark basement (what remains of it anyway) and mess, to some extent, with its plumbing and wiring. I like that. It's not something I want to do every day, but the idea that I can if I want or need to, is nice.

_


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## Rob Elliott (Apr 28, 2011)

Hey guys - made the update and the 'instrument folders' still show a 12-22-10 date. Is that right?


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 28, 2011)

re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> EastWest Lurker,
> 
> Would you please be so kind to forward the following little problem to EastWest:
> http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_CelliStacctssmoRRx16.mov (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... oRRx16.mov)
> ...



Yes, I hear that and I agree and I will pass it on.


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## re-peat (Apr 28, 2011)

Thanks.

Oh and, Jay, if I may, there's another tiny little thing: the *Celli Leg Slur LT 3 Ni* patch (in the 'QuickStart HS' folder) doesn't work properly: if you play legato (which is how this patch is supposed to be played), the 'next' note doesn't play, but instead the first one keeps playing. 

Thanks again.

_


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 28, 2011)

bryla @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > *(3) Correct the tuning of the violas. *This is actually the biggest problem I have with HS and here’s an illustration of what I mean: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas.mp3
> ...



Wow, I don't know which patches are being used but here is something I just did using a legato Slur patch and it is nowhere near that out of tune.

http://soundcloud.com/jay-asher/hs-vlas


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 28, 2011)

re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Oh and, Jay, if I may, there's another tiny little thing: the *Celli Leg Slur LT 3 Ni* patch (in the 'QuickStart HS' folder) doesn't work properly: if you play legato (which is how this patch is supposed to be played), the 'next' note doesn't play, but instead the first one keeps playing.
> 
> ...



I just tried it and it is not behaving that way here, Piet.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 28, 2011)

re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> Guy,
> 
> A serious user should be offered at least the possibility to work with a supposedly professional library/tool/application in any way he or she wants. _"Don't care for deep editing? No problem. You don't have to. You can if you like — our interface has a dedicated tab for really deep-digging parameters —, but you don't have to if you're satisfied with how we've pre-programmed the presets. The option's there though." _That type of thing. Being denied that possibility in the first place, is what I find so frustrating. Especially with a library like HS. That you don't get this option with something like GPO, EWQLSO Silver or ViennaSE, I completely understand, but with Hollywood Strings _Diamond Edition_?
> 
> ...



I would like those abilities too and look forward to when Play Pro comes out gives us a chance to do those things.

And no, I do not have a time frame.


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 28, 2011)

re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> *(2)* Make it somehow possible to *choose the desired microphone perspective prior to loading a patch*. I’ve lost quite a bit of time having to first load the ‘Main’ perspective, when what I really wanted was the ‘Close’ perspective … (I know, I could do it myself: load every patch with every possible persepective and save each one seperately, but really, I don’t think this should be up to the user. So, a whole new folder of patches, organised according to Mic perspective, would be most welcome, I feel.)
> _



Great idea but I think they could make the implementation even simpler. First, give PLAY a user preference for mic loading. Second, it would be great to be able to choose the mic position on loading - right click an instrument in the browser window and have a popup menu appear with the list of mics and select one of them. This wouldn't be a HS specific feature, it would be nice for EWQLSO and other libraries as well.


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## rayinstirling (Apr 28, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> Wow, I don't know which patches are being used but here is something I just did using a legato Slur patch and it is nowhere near that out of tune.
> 
> http://soundcloud.com/jay-asher/hs-vlas



?


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 28, 2011)

stevenson-again @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> > (3) Correct the tuning of the violas. This is actually the biggest problem I have with HS and here’s an illustration of what I mean: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas.mp3 I’m actually really surprised this hasn’t come up before (or maybe it has and I didn’t notice it), but some of those HS Violas are really terribly out of tune. And not in a nice ‘human’ way, but in a very unpleasant and unmusical way. A real shame, as these violas can have a truly terrific sound.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Am I correct in assuming you originally programmed this with LASS and then swapped out with a minimal amount of changes?

Just asking because that is how it sounds to me and like all libraries they respond differently.


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## Dan Mott (Apr 28, 2011)

The violas are flat, and in the sustaines too. It's worse when combined with vocals and other sounds. I thought this was fixed in one of the updates.... Apparently not. They certaintly are the odd one out.


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## re-peat (Apr 28, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> I just tried it and it is not behaving that way here, Piet.



Thanks for checking, Jay. Very strange though, cause here's what I'm getting: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_CelliLeg_QS.mov (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... Leg_QS.mov)
Notice how, everytime I play legato, the legato-ed note doesn't sound, except for its release tail. Watching Logic's Matrix while listening should illustrate the problem perfectly.
Can anyone else check this as well, please? If no one but me has this problem, then at least I know it exists only here, locally, rather than globally.

As for those _out-of-tune-violas_: simply load any of the ensemble sustain patches and play a few chords with at least two violas voices in them (just like I did in my example), and you'll hear it immediately. A viola patch on its own, sometimes isn't too bad perhaps (even though I can hear some very serious out-of-tune-ness in your example as well, I'm afraid.)

_


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## Mr. Anxiety (Apr 28, 2011)

I +1 Re-Peat....... it is the intervals being played within the violas that sound out of tune, the divisi writing is not possible. The unision line in Jay's piece even has issues on some of the viola notes against his horns, but not as much as Piet's piece with moving intervals within the viola section.

Mr A


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 28, 2011)

re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > I just tried it and it is not behaving that way here, Piet.
> ...



Ah, I see. Well what you call "legato " playing, with that amount of overlap I call poor playing  But seriously, even doing that it is just not behaving here the way it is in your example. Send me the Logic file if you like and I will do a bounce of it here and see what I get.

I guess you have more sensitive ears than me because the degree of out of tune-ness in the example I posted is just fine with me. It is certainly less than in some other libraries.

I never use ensemble patches as perhaps due to my training I just don't think of writing strings that way but I just loaded Full STR 1 NV NV NV VB RR Ni.ewi and am playing notes in thirds the viola range of Ab2-Eb 3 and the tuning is just fine for me.


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## Gerd Kaeding (Apr 28, 2011)

re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > I just tried it and it is not behaving that way here, Piet.
> ...


I can reproduce this when I play this patch without holding down the sustain paddle.

When I use the sustain paddle , the notes connect correctly .


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 28, 2011)

Gerd Kaeding @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 28 said:
> ...



Boy that's odd because I cannot reproduce it either way, Gerd. We are talking about the patch in the most recent Quick Start HS folder called Celli Leg Slur LT 3 Ni.ewi, right?


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## Gerd Kaeding (Apr 28, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> We are talking about the patch in the most recent Quick Start HS folder called Celli Leg Slur LT 3 Ni.ewi, right?



Yes , Jay that's correct. 

What is more weird :

I haven't used the patches from that folder yet .
Now I notice that these patches load with MID Mics , not the MAIN Mics like usual.
( I have HS Diamond)


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 28, 2011)

Gerd Kaeding @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > We are talking about the patch in the most recent Quick Start HS folder called Celli Leg Slur LT 3 Ni.ewi, right?
> ...



Blame TJ and me. We both prefer the Mids


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## stevenson-again (Apr 28, 2011)

> Am I correct in assuming you originally programmed this with LASS and then swapped out with a minimal amount of changes?
> 
> Just asking because that is how it sounds to me and like all libraries they respond differently.



i know different libraries respond differently and i did spend quite a bit of time trying to reprogram the strings to get them to sound as natural as they can. apart from the obvious tuning issues with the violas, my main problem with it are the legato intervals.

this is fairly standard simple string writing and was a good guage of how HS is working. HS sounds really good right out of the box - the LASS version has my Eq on it to tame those wild upper mids that were recorded with it. i could probably massage an even smoother sound out of HS.

Here's another A/B

http://idisk.mac.com/rohan.stevenson/Public/stuff/AFewWordsHS.mp3 (A Few Words HS)

http://idisk.mac.com/rohan.stevenson/Public/stuff/AFewWordsLASS.mp3 (A Few Words LASS)

i think this does show that the tuning is a bit wobblier in HS than is ideal - except for the re-take in the violins towards the end which sounds a little sour in LASS compared to HS. i think tighten up the tuning in HS and there would be very little in it. they are both great sounding libs.


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## Gerd Kaeding (Apr 28, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> Blame TJ and me. We both prefer the Mids



Hahaha , Jay ... me too ...

For a moment I just feared that I accidentally installed a HS Gold update ...

Bye

Gerd


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 28, 2011)

re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> Here's http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_CelliStssmm.mp3 (another example): just a simple repeating C#2 (one of those poorly truncated ones), with velocities around 124. Surely, there's some stacking going on here? One layer of the sound does indeed change with every note, in true round robin fashion, but there's another layer (the badly truncated one) which uses the exact same sample throughout the entire sequence ...



What does the plugin show for voice count when you play one note?


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## Rob Elliott (Apr 28, 2011)

Mike Connelly @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Here's http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_CelliStssmm.mp3 (another example): just a simple repeating C#2 (one of those poorly truncated ones), with velocities around 124. Surely, there's some stacking going on here? One layer of the sound does indeed change with every note, in true round robin fashion, but there's another layer (the badly truncated one) which uses the exact same sample throughout the entire sequence ...
> ...




Another vote for 'mid mics' with the 'surrounds' mixed in for good measure. VERY lyrical. Not to go OT but the legatos* bc+slurLT12 Ni's* - with these mics are my personal favs. At this point not a fan of the BIG 'powerful' legato patches but these 'LT' patches are easy to work with - more convicing - with fewer tweaks (big fan of 'playing' in and moving on.) :D


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## re-peat (Apr 28, 2011)

How nice to see the EastWest representatives having such a jolly good time in this thread. Making fun of those who submit existing problems and dismissing serious tuning issues as 'not being worse' than in other libraries. Problem solved. Hahaha indeed. (And Jay, forgive me, but if you can't hear the out-of-tune-ness in your example, or in the library itself, you have a MUCH bigger problem than us, who merely have to find a way of how to best deal with a poorly tuned library.)

The reason I played with so much overlap, was simply _to illustrate the problem as clearly as I could_. And the reason I used the ensemble patches, was, again, _to provide as helpful and illuminating an example as possible_. Forgive me for investing time in isolating these problems for you. Any other company would be grateful and appreciative of such efforts. But not EastWest of course. Hahaha. Silly me.

You're right, you've been well trained indeed. By Nick and Doug, it seems, in learning how to irritate and alienate customers who come forward with issues pertaining to EastWest soft- and soundware. 

*Rohan,*

Could you perhaps have a quick look at the QuickStart Cello Legato patch, and confirm whether or not it behaves like the other legato patches in the QuickStart directory? The violas and violins behave as expected here, it's just these celli that act up. Many thanks in advance.

_


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## re-peat (Apr 28, 2011)

Mike Connelly @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> What does the plugin show for voice count when you play one note?



Mike,

Voice count? Just 2's and 3's, which is perfectly normal.

------

Anyway, I've just discovered the reason why the celli performed badly: the 'Legato Slur'-articulation isn't ticked by default (preventing the articulation to load), and it should be of course. Problem solved.

_


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 28, 2011)

re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> Voice count? Just 2's and 3's, which is perfectly normal.



Maybe I'm missing something, but if you play a single note on a staccato patch wouldn't you expect it to use one voice? No release sample, no legato transitions, probably no dynamic crossfades, what would the extra voices be used for?


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## re-peat (Apr 28, 2011)

Mike,

The problem I was talking about related to the (QuickStart) Celli *Legato* Slur patch, not the staccato articulation. But thanks for co-worrying about the matter.

_


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 28, 2011)

Sorry, I should have quoted more of your post for clarity. I was talking about your earlier issue (echo/layering/RR issues) with CelloStaccatissimoRRx16.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 28, 2011)

re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> How nice to see the EastWest representatives having such a jolly good time in this thread. Making fun of those who submit existing problems and dismissing serious tuning issues as 'not being worse' than in other libraries. Problem solved. Hahaha indeed. (And Jay, forgive me, but if you can't hear the out-of-tune-ness in your example, or in the library itself, you have a MUCH bigger problem than us, who merely have to find a way of how to best deal with a poorly tuned library.)
> 
> The reason I played with so much overlap, was simply _to illustrate the problem as clearly as I could_. And the reason I used the ensemble patches, was, again, _to provide as helpful and illuminating an example as possible_. Forgive me for investing time in isolating these problems for you. Any other company would be grateful and appreciative of such efforts. But not EastWest of course. Hahaha. Silly me.
> 
> You're right, you've been well trained indeed. By Nick and Doug, it seems, in learning how to irritate and alienate customers who come forward with issues pertaining to EastWest soft- and soundware.



Ah, I was wondering when the _real_ Piet would show up.

I very much appreciate your isolating these issues and I am not dismissing them, which is why I am trying to reproduce all these issues and pass on what I deem appropriate. And forgive me for trying to approach all this with a sense of humor. You know full well that this has always been my style long before I became associated with EW if it is irritating to you, well, that is on me, not Doug or Nick.

The tuning issues may well be there but they simply do not bother me much. And I have been very consistent with this. When some people criticized LASS for tuning I said that while it bothers some people, it does not bother me very much. Old ears, I guess. 

I seem to remember you criticizing Kirk Hunter's strings for phasing issues, which I also said did not bother me very much. Once again, old ears, I guess.

So everyone, please do keep telling me your issues and know that I will do the best I can to bring them to EW's attention.


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## rayinstirling (Apr 28, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> The tuning issues may well be there but they simply do not bother me much. And I have been very consistent with this. When some people criticized LASS for tuning I said that while it bothers some people, it does not bother me very much. Old ears, I guess.
> .



I simply put a question mark against the example you posted as being not overly out of tune because I disagree.

Having no axe to grind over EW libraries or most other libraries out there I didn't want to seem to be EW bashing. I'm still not EW bashing but sorry Jay. If you can't hear the obvious then you should not be commenting on tuning issues at all. BTW I think my ears are older than yours.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 28, 2011)

rayinstirling @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > The tuning issues may well be there but they simply do not bother me much. And I have been very consistent with this. When some people criticized LASS for tuning I said that while it bothers some people, it does not bother me very much. Old ears, I guess.
> ...



No problem. If it is "overly" to you then it is "overly" to you.

I will mention it too EW and perhaps they can adjust it.


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## JohnG (Apr 28, 2011)

well; the violas are somewhat out. Not really that bad but it would be nice if they were a little better.

Maybe they can do a touch-up.


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## jlb (Apr 28, 2011)

stevenson-again @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> > Am I correct in assuming you originally programmed this with LASS and then swapped out with a minimal amount of changes?
> >
> > Just asking because that is how it sounds to me and like all libraries they respond differently.
> 
> ...



I think HS blows LASS out of the water on this one. I couldn't care less about the tuning.

jlb


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## rayinstirling (Apr 28, 2011)

Now where's my Melodyne plugin o/~ 

It's a curse really, it's a curse. :lol:


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 28, 2011)

re-peat @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, I was wondering when the _real_ Piet would show up.
> ...



Fair enough, Piet. I really do care about doing the best job I know how with this while still keeping my integrity and retaining my sense of humor, which is admittedly perhaps an acquired taste


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## EvilDragon (Apr 28, 2011)

jlb @ 28.4.2011 said:


> Why is someone allowed to describe my post as stupid?



Because it's a free world. Also LOL Internet.


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## jlb (Apr 28, 2011)

A free world, spare me the cliches. Well I think it is pathetic, I have never described other peoples posts as stupid.

jlb


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## Joe S (Apr 28, 2011)

The voices are cutting out in the HS example. I can easily play a simple piece like that and make it sound real. There is a PLAY problem there. It's not HS programming.


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## EvilDragon (Apr 28, 2011)

jlb @ 28.4.2011 said:


> A free world, spare me the cliches. Well I think it is pathetic, I have never described other peoples posts as stupid.



Doesn't matter. Again, LOL Internet. :lol:


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## robibla (Apr 28, 2011)

I'm a LASS fanboy but I have to admit that the HS version of that last comparison sounds better - the LASS one just sounds like its been heavily EQ'd to get the lush warm sound (even with the eq there's something still a little harsh about it in the higher register). I'm hoping the new stage/colour tool will help to achieve this sound without pulling out huge chunks of frequencies. The tuning didn't bother me either in that.


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## jlb (Apr 28, 2011)

robibla @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> I'm a LASS fanboy but I have to admit that the HS version of that last comparison sounds better - the LASS one just sounds like its been heavily EQ'd to get the lush warm sound (even with the eq there's something still a little harsh about it in the higher register). I'm hoping the new stage/colour tool will help to achieve this sound without pulling out huge chunks of frequencies. The tuning didn't bother me either in that.



Yes warm is the word. Glad the tuning didn't bother you either

jlb


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 28, 2011)

jlb @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> A free world, spare me the cliches. Well I think it is pathetic, I have never described other peoples posts as stupid.
> 
> jlb



That is because you were raised to be polite and see it as a virtue, as do I. Sadly, nowadays not enough internet users share our value system.


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## toddkreuz (Apr 28, 2011)

Paying 1500 bucks for strings that sound like slightly out of tune synths.

I'll pass..


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## Dan Mott (Apr 28, 2011)

toddkreuz @ Fri Apr 29 said:


> Paying 1500 bucks for strings that sound like slightly out of tune synths.
> 
> I'll pass..



Wow.... For real? You think HS sounds like a synth? :o


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## Joe S (Apr 28, 2011)

There is something really retarded about this thread. it reminds me of the Monty Python crew trying to figure out if the poor woman is a witch or not.


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## adg21 (Apr 28, 2011)

Thanks for sharing those A/Bs Stevenson. Choice of which strings to use seems very much to dependent on type of cue. I preferred LASS for 1st and HS for 2st even though the 2 cues aren't radically different in style (by which I mean I mean it sounds like they were composed by the same person and could be used in the same film, series etc). Ideally you want both.


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## rayinstirling (Apr 29, 2011)

Thomas_J @ Fri Apr 29 said:


> We take issues that our users have with HS very seriously, and we will not stop updating HS until everyone's happy. Remaining issues are being ironed out. It is a very deep library that offers its users a lot of articulations and details that are not available in other string libraries. Best results are achieved with good knowledge of string playing (such as their tendency to stop the vibrato motion before a new note in a legato passage, and sculpting vibrato in a musical way, interactively with dynamic level control. Introducing vibrato gradually after settling on a note etc..). This is something other libraries do not offer. HS offers the power to simulate a string section with very realistic results, but just like a real instrument it also requires a certainly level of technical skill, as well as for the user to really think about the way he/she wants the notes to sound. You want to shape the notes individually. Give each note meaning and expression. With HS the amount of sampled material makes the level of achievable detail quite staggering, and it doesn't take a whole lot of work to get much better results than you would get from simply loading a typical patch and riding the dynamic controller. Vibrato control is KEY to realistic performances. It can be somewhat tricky to ride both vibrato and dynamic controllers at the same time, so what I do is use an expression pedal or breath controller to control the dynamics, which keeps my left hand free to control the modwheel/vibrato intensity. You are essentially learning to play an instrument, and it is not something you do over night, but once you master it you will find HS to be a very unique and extremely expressive instrument that offers the user more real time control over the shape of the notes than any other sample based string library. As for the tuning issues these are easily remedied and will be in the next imminent update. We thank you for your patience and look forward to your comments on our brass library which is getting close to completion.
> 
> Best,
> Thomas


Thanks Thomas,

Unfortunately, I don't have the appropriate arranging and orchestrating skills to get the best from HS although that won't stop me buying it at some point.
I don't go through life in denial of my own shortcomings because that would be extremely pathetic.

Kind Regards

Ray


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## Hicks (Apr 29, 2011)

Thomas_J @ Thu Apr 28 said:


> ...
> 
> Best,
> Thomas




Back to VSL time by tweacking a lot. But I agree with Thomas, to make a library to sound real, one have to know how sound the real instruments.
I got real issues to make brass libraries to sound good due to my lack of knowledge in this field.

I have a question regarding HS.
Here is a post, I have sent on VSL forum:



> Hi all, first of all thank you for all those kind libraries. I am trying to solve an issue I have since a long time and not only with VSL but with all libraries I am using, but as VSL is my favorite... As I am a violin player, I am very careful about those samples and the issue with ALL strings samples are the release. With short notes, all the note length seems to have been recorded, so on Staccato, Spiccato, Pizz, harsh, detache short (I am speaking about chamber strings here), the sound is full and beautiful. However, on long note, I can't hear the strings players stopping their bow on the string at the end of the note. For example, on sustain, when I release the keyboard note, the note cut abruptely. Ok The release function is adding some trails, but it's more like reverb to get a smooth cut than a real sample of a player stopping his bowing. And this is he main thing which makes me tell when listening to a music if it has been done by samples or orchestra. It happens everytime and everywhere. The srangest thing is that it also happening on detache long, but it should be a full length sample? The note is finishing like a flute (a very quick decrescendo like someonoe stopping to blow), not a string instrument. So my question is there a way to add real release of bow samples? MAybe I am using wrong the samples. It is not only VSL but all libraries, but maybe it's a hint for next gen libraries! Other question is regarding attacks. With legato perf, if two notes are not overlapped (depending on ms defined in VIP) a sample with attack is heard. Great. But sometimes I prefer an attack from another sample. I mean, on a phrase C D E in 8th note. I want a slow attack to start and then all in one bow. If I am using only legato perf, the attack on the first note is heard but little two quick in the passage I want (nothing wrong with samples, but matter of taste), but D and E are perfectly connected. So I wanted to use a sustain sample for the C and legato for the rest. But even if the keyswitch is trigger during the C, the D note (even if overlapped with the C) is heard with the attack from the legato patch. The E is ok. Is there a way to make the legato perf patch start by a slur note if it is overlapped even if the note is the first one of the patch. Thanks a lot for your help.



There is the same issue with sustain or legato notes on LASS. Release trails are only some reverbs added, but I would like to find a library with real releasing the bow samples! How is HS regarding this?


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## rpaillot (Apr 29, 2011)

Here are some cues I made with HS a while ago that I could never do with LASS because LASS lacks body and is not wide enough to my tastes.

I use some violas btw.


http://romainpaillot.com/Transformation ... shback.mp3

http://www.romainpaillot.com/mythologiquevariation.mp3

I think I could do much better now in term of programming because as TJ said you really need to know how a string section reacts to make it sounds good..


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## Hannes_F (Apr 29, 2011)

rpaillot @ Fri Apr 29 said:


> http://romainpaillot.com/Transformation%20and%20Flashback.mp3
> 
> http://www.romainpaillot.com/mythologiquevariation.mp3



Nice writing, Romain. Really! Outstandingly musical for my ears.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 29, 2011)

Yes, excellent example, beautiful sound.


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## Dan Mott (Apr 29, 2011)

I love HS, and I couldn't see how anyone else would think different.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 29, 2011)

The thing that is making me hesitate though is that, if the two films I'm doing in 10 weeks are any indication, I can't imagine finding the time to sculpt each note of HS. I have such wicked deadlines, that I want something that gives me results asap. More intelligent scripting? Bring it on!


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## Hannes_F (Apr 29, 2011)

Dan-Jay @ Fri Apr 29 said:


> I love HS, and I couldn't see how anyone else would think different.



Be always prepared that somebody can think different than you. For example I hear the samplish'ness through two doors. No need to fight with teeth and claws though. If it inspires great writing ... then it is a great tool, no doubt about that.


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## Dan Mott (Apr 29, 2011)

Hannes_F @ Fri Apr 29 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Fri Apr 29 said:
> 
> 
> > I love HS, and I couldn't see how anyone else would think different.
> ...



Sure. Always prepared for that. I just ment that it's tough to see how someone couldn't like it when I personally think it's an inspiring tool.


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## Joe S (Apr 29, 2011)

I hear the sampleness too in the demo/ Lass comparison. I don't know why exactly. I couldn't make it sound that bad without really trying. Also HS has the simpler patches which do the automatic vibrato and volume on the mod wheel thing just like LASS.


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## Ashermusic (Apr 29, 2011)

Thomas_J @ Fri Apr 29 said:


> I have created a quick bunch of examples to illustrate what I mean with expressive control in HS.
> 
> Example 1)
> 
> ...



OK, I have logged in as Ashermusic rather than EastWest Lurker so hopefully people might believe that I am writing as a composer and not an EW part time employee. (I know, not likely, but it is true nonetheless.)

Waaaayyy too much portamento or slur usage in your playing on this piece for my personal taste T.J. but the sound is just so lush and gorgeous and riding the cc1 and cc11 makes such a difference. 

There are other excellent string libraries out there that sound good in a different way but I have not heard any that can rival HS for that John Williams-ish sound that I so love.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 29, 2011)

I just listened to Piet's example of poor tuning on the violas. I should point out that I don't own H.S. yet, and am trying to decide which trigger to pull string-wise to replace my aged EWQLSO Platinum set.

Now, I have perfect pitch, but I have to say-anyone who can't hear the extremity of tuning issues in his example needs to have their hearing checked, and I don't say this in a derogatory way-I mean it seriously. That tuning is EGREGIOUSLY bad. High School orchestra bad. When I read statements from company representatives theoretically not hearing this or trying to downplay the issue or posting contextual demos that supposedly belie the issue, it brings me back to every problem I have ever had with East West's bristly or off-putting customer service model.

The takeaway I'm left with is-"Well, it's not really that bad but we're going to fix it anyway", thereby sort of patronizing the customer, sort of admitting there's an issue but categorizing it as minor when in fact it really isn't.

From a customer service standpoint, why not simply "yeah,we know about that, and it will be fixed in the next update"? Then the client, who really likes the product to begin with, is happy and hopes for reasonable haste, end of story.

(Standard claimer-I own 8 EW libraries )


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## noiseboyuk (Apr 29, 2011)

Tell you what folks, those three examples from Thomas J really are an excellent tutorial. And what a beautiful final piece. It's a tangent to this discussion, but even though it was a technical demo where we're all supposed to be listening to fine detail, I just kinda got swept away with the final example... I know it's not supposed to happen without live players, but there you go!

So a terrific tutorial from a master, and I get the concept - you need 2 controllers to get that level of expression and realism. I find myself wondering though if there isn't still a way to achieve much of this with just a single controller, where vibrato is introduced into the final 20% of the travel. I think this is sorta the LASS effect in a way, actually. You're gonna sacrifice some control of course, but it does mean you can emulate the vibrato on-off on the swells all in a single pretty easy pass (and have the portamentos controlled by key velocity). [PAUSE] I've just had a more detailed listen to how LASS does it, and to my ears the vibrato actually comes in at around 50% travel of cc1, and there's more velocity to go at that point. So I don't think you'd get exactly the same effect, but it's reasonably close - certainly you can mimic the vib on and off on the swells, and I think that's the magic ingredient of why LASS is often named as being so expressive to play. My impression is that with HS you can be MORE expressive - but it will require more skill, it'll take a little longer (unless you're extremely skilled with a foot pedal on your first pass) and you might get fried with the resource demands in the process!

This viola tuning is odd. We can all hear it clear as day on Piet's example, and it's a fright. Why don't I hear it on Thomas'? Does it only affect some patches? I hear Larry's cry above - in general a few more unambiguous guilty-pleas from Doug and Nick would be very welcome - but (as another non-HS owner) it seems hard to believe that these are the same patches that Thomas uses in that example above...


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## NYC Composer (Apr 29, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Apr 29 said:


> Tell you what folks, those three examples from Thomas J really are an excellent tutorial. And what a beautiful final piece. It's a tangent to this discussion, but even though it was a technical demo where we're all supposed to be listening to fine detail, I just kinda got swept away with the final example... I know it's not supposed to happen without live players, but there you go!
> 
> So a terrific tutorial from a master, and I get the concept - you need 2 controllers to get that level of expression and realism. I find myself wondering though if there isn't still a way to achieve much of this with just a single controller, where vibrato is introduced into the final 20% of the travel. I think this is sorta the LASS effect in a way, actually. You're gonna sacrifice some control of course, but it does mean you can emulate the vibrato on-off on the swells all in a single pretty easy pass (and have the portamentos controlled by key velocity). [PAUSE] I've just had a more detailed listen to how LASS does it, and to my ears the vibrato actually comes in at around 50% travel of cc1, and there's more velocity to go at that point. So I don't think you'd get exactly the same effect, but it's reasonably close - certainly you can mimic the vib on and off on the swells, and I think that's the magic ingredient of why LASS is often named as being so expressive to play. My impression is that with HS you can be MORE expressive - but it will require more skill, it'll take a little longer (unless you're extremely skilled with a foot pedal on your first pass) and you might get fried with the resource demands in the process!
> 
> This viola tuning is odd. We can all hear it clear as day on Piet's example, and it's a fright. Why don't I hear it on Thomas'? Does it only affect some patches? I hear Larry's cry above - in general a few more unambiguous guilty-pleas from Doug and Nick would be very welcome - but (as another non-HS owner) it seems hard to believe that these are the same patches that Thomas uses in that example above...



Guy-side note here, I always enjoy your thoughtful posts...

I don't think it's a matter of "guilty", though-not at all. In a library of this magnitude, there are certainly going to be things that need to be tweaked, so.. no guilt. What completes confounds me is the lack of simple _acknowledgement_ and a cheery "yeah, we hear ya- we'll fix it in the next update". Why demur when the example makes it so plain? I'm sure it's just one articulation or whatever, but to say 'it's not so bad..'..huh...? Honestly, with as much respect as I have for the work done at EW, these responses boggle my mind.

Many comments, issues and provided audio examples are really subjective. This one (Piet's) just isn't. Not to me.

edit-Thomas got here before me, and to be fair, what he says could certainly be true.
However, what I'm talking about is long standing EW corporate philosophy that I sincerely hope, as an EW customer, will change.


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## Joe S (Apr 29, 2011)

Thomas J's examples clearly state that the first example is a basic single controller patch ala LASS. HS has tons of these patches. Example 2 adds vibrato control independent of dynamics. "Can't someone please find a way to get rid of all these pedals, buttons and steering wheel in my new BMW and boil it down to a single joystick. It's soooooo complicated!!" HS plays like a real violin. You have to live and breathe it and be come one with it. May the force be with you.

I dont have any tuning issues with the latest HS patches and there are clearly other odd things going on in the earlier HS demo posted. So its PLAY software issues or not the latest programs or user error.


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## JBacal (Apr 29, 2011)

I love the first of TJ's 3 examples. Haunting and passionate even without (or maybe because) of the minimal vibrato. 

Best,
Jay


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## noiseboyuk (Apr 29, 2011)

Cheers Thomas, thanks for that - these combined patches certainly sound interesting - all controlled by cc1? Legato / portamento switched by key velocity? What are they called? I'm hoping Play 3 makes some strides forward too (see thread here - http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20569 - for some ideas from myself and others as to what some of us are missing). Again, really appreciate the time you're taking here to demo stuff and try to help those with issues.

Joe - I think you're missing where I'm coming from. "Playable" is the word - to have something you can just play that sounds expressive is such a big difference to having an instrument that is capable of great things but is very tough to use. The latter is a creativity-killer for me personally, and a practical nightmare when working on a deadline. So many recent libraries have been able to move this forward by being really playable (LASS is one example). Needing 2 passes is only one element of my reservations - there are a lot of issues with HS and Play, but it looks to me like it's moving in the right direction (especially in the light of Thomas' post). I'm just being cautious with Play issues.

Jay - know what you mean, it's a terrific line, however it's played. And it's good to know HS can do the more minimalist style too.

Larry - my bad phasing, by "guilty" I meant an ability to unambiguously hold up hands from time to time and say "yeah there's a problem - bear with us as we work on it"... so just agreeing with you, really! Agreed there's no sense of blame and finger-pointing, especially on a library this huge which would be a challenge for anyone.

Would love some kind of resolution on Piet's tuning issues. I have a vague recollection of some really weird tuning being posted a while ago which turned out to be some strange scripting error. Piet, sure you're on the latest version... what could explain this I wonder?


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## Joe S (Apr 29, 2011)

Noise, I didn't mean to come off as rude. To me the HS stuff is so playable. I'm just sort of baffled as to what the problem is. Load a patch, play connected and push the controllers up and down for swells. Done.


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## noiseboyuk (Apr 29, 2011)

Joe S @ Sat Apr 30 said:


> Noise, I didn't mean to come off as rude. To me the HS stuff is so playable. I'm just sort of baffled as to what the problem is. Load a patch, play connected and push the controllers up and down for swells. Done.



That's great to hear! I've heard a lot of people say they've struggled with the library - tuning, legato levels, resource issues etc which means it takes them ages to get things done. No doubt all that has put me off. In a sense I'm erroneously conflating those issues with the extra control that HS offers - the control is obviously a good thing, but in general I'm a fan of Keep It Simple Stupid (especially on a deadline!) so I'm just a tad wary of making things too complex. Like I say though - your report here is EXACTLY what I want to hear!


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## Dan Mott (Apr 29, 2011)

noise, there is nothing complex about HS at all, at least in my opinion. The legato level issue has been resolved in the newest update, which is why I started the thread, so no problem there. The violas are a little bit flat, but it hasn't bothered my that much, although I wouldn't mind a fix.

The more you use the tool, you get quicker and better at it. Now with the recent update, I can do things much quicker because Im not having to deal with volume issues and spending hours working around it.

Also, IMO, I think having control is just so much better than having things simplified and kind of already down for you. I had EWQLSO and I never got along with the library because I had no control over vibrato, and in most cases the dynamics of the expression controller data. I think users can get better results. Users are able to choose when the vibrato starts and ends, aswell as expression, not to mention a choice of finger positions and a IMO great sound.

However, I can understand why a lot of people are put off by this library, especially composers that are on a deadline. If you do not have a fast computer, there is really no point in purchasing, although there are simplified patches now that load really fast, it's still pretty consuming resource wise. I also think that if you are wanting to become a power user with HS, you won't be getting the most out of the library if you are just going to use the lite patches, or the simplified ones. You won't be getting the most out of the dynamics and such. I also use the powerful system patches and I think they are great!

The big patches take quite a long time to load, and I think an SSD is a must when it comes to this. Im saving for an SSD because I use the powerful system patches and they really are quite a bitch to wait for when you are on a roll. Also, loading my template takes a long time, and it's quite annoying and it really doesn't motivate me to open them, not to mention swap between projects. It's an expensive work around, but once that work around is complete, I know composers will have so much fun with the library. 

Finally, no offense to anyone here, but I don't think anyone can judge the library on a few of the demos posted here, or someone that has spent a few hours with it, or someone who doesn't know how to use it properly. listening to the demos from T.J on the sounds online site is your best judge on that IMO because I believe those examples are really showing off what the library can do and how emotional it can be.

Thanks.


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## Hicks (Apr 30, 2011)

The example of Thomas is great.

Even if I don't like too much the compressed sound but this is now HW standards...
However I wanted to check with very old liraries: ie VSL Special edition orchestra cello.

This take has been done in 2 minutes. I have opened VIP. Put a portamento patch and a legato patch. I have setup the two cells to switch depending of the velocities I play the notes (like in LASS). Altiverb, a compressor and one take.
VSL Cello SE


VSL sound is great also, especially on the basses. I think the higher register need a little bit of EQ.
By comparing the two sounds, my opinion is:
Of course HS sounds better with more life due to some changes in vibrato and more expression in the samples.
(Btw you can note that changes in vibrato are subtle, this is normal because when playing in an orchestra nobody plays the vibrato the same way. Some are using large sweep, other faster, other don't, some are doing vibrato all time long, other don't).Thomas has weel dosed the vibrato. If the rise of vibraot is too wide, it will sound fake immediately.
However the sound from VSL is also great, maybe a bit less expressive but it sounds also more natural, less tweaked through plugin to get Hollywood sounds (but as I mentionned, that's the standard now).

If HS was still at its highest price, I would have say, no need to. But at this price now (which is less than VSL full orchestral strings or appassionnata), this is a really good investment. (Even if I will not because I am too affraid of Play and talks about crashing clicking).
However VSL permits far more articulations. But that's another story.

What is important to mention, is when listening to something great, let's have a look to what we already own and check the difference.


PS: I am pretty usre others will have a lot of different opinions regarding VSL and HS. So considerer this is just mine, and of course it is... If you like the sound of HS, if it will create a gap with what you had previously, go ahead.
btw: HS has also the run patches which are incredible.


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## re-peat (Apr 30, 2011)

Before anything, I want to say (again) that, like most people, I’m very taken with (most of) the sounds in HS and it is certainly not my intention to damage the reputation of this finest of fine libraries. But … listen to this: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas_ex2.mp3 (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... as_ex2.mp3)
A simple series of naked viola scales over basic celli chords. Straight out of the box, no tricks, no interference or production on my part whatsoever. Now, is this out of tune or is this out of tune? 
(This time, I’ve used a viola patch from the ’08 Legato Bow Change’ folder, but believe me, I could have taken most any HS viola patch and the results would be very similar.)

I must say, I’m not terribly happy with Thomas’ assumption that, surely, it must be a software glitch at my end. The obvious thing to say of course: blame the user. What glitch would that be then? Some terribly clever glitch in my system that only affects the tuning of the HS violas? And every user who concurs that the violas are poorly tuned (which seems to include most serious users, judging from this thread), must be doing something wrong? Is that it?
And Thomas, forgive me, but I’ve been doing this just a little bit too long (working with DAWs, samples and virtual instruments, I mean) to not engage in this type of discussions without being absolutely sure of what I’m doing. I have no malicious intentions with any of this, you know, I'm merely isolating what I (and many other people as well) consider to be an unfortunate flaw in an otherwise superb library. This is not an attack, this is constructive feedback from a mostly very satisfied user.

That's what I don't understand, you see: why can’t you people simply acknowledge and accept that the tuning of the violas is somewhat off? That would be sooooo much more impressive and endearing than always trying to ignore or dismiss the issue, or fault the user. I mean, HS is a truly wonderful library, we all agree, don't worry, but most of us also happen to agree that the intonation of the violas could be better. And we’re simply hoping that, one day, a wonderful library will be updated into something even more wonderful.

_


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## rayinstirling (Apr 30, 2011)

Piet,

Let me answer your question with my thoughts considering I've already had a post deleted here.
It seems to me that the greatest sin on this or any forum is to seem to be disrespectful.
That is, to question someone, something or some organisation while in the presence of their groupies.

Will I endear myself to many in the audience here with such an observation? Probably not but life will go on in all our real worlds.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 30, 2011)

It's all at the bottom of my sig, Ray.


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## re-peat (Apr 30, 2011)

Here's another example: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas_ex3.mp3 (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... as_ex3.mp3)
Just naked celli and violas. No need to tell me that the programming is dreadful in these examples, I know, but programming is not what this is about. This is about the tuning of the raw materials. And this example shows, more clearly even than the one in my previous post, that there's something wrong. 
Surely, after hearing this, it can no longer be denied?

_


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## rpaillot (Apr 30, 2011)

re-peat @ Sat Apr 30 said:


> Here's another example: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas_ex3.mp3 (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... as_ex3.mp3)
> Just naked celli and violas.
> (Warning: this one is REALLY bad.)
> 
> _



Honestly I dont see any problems with the EX2 file. ( I might have to change my ears !!!!  )

This one at 0:40 has some very out of tune notes between 0:30 and 0:45. It seems to happen in the very high range of the violas.

I think it's not THAT bad and east west will probably fix this in a next update.


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## rayinstirling (Apr 30, 2011)

Relative pitch. What's that all about?

I hear it from around 0:19 and if it didn't get worse I might try and ignore it.
As I said in an earlier post. It's a curse!

I wonder. Can most replying here tell the difference between middle A @ 440Hz and middle A @ 442Hz?
I can detect it quite easily when library samples are played together, how about you?


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## ChrisAxia (Apr 30, 2011)

re-peat @ Sat Apr 30 said:


> Here's another example: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas_ex3.mp3 (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... as_ex3.mp3)
> Just naked celli and violas. No need to tell me that the programming is dreadful in these examples, I know, but programming is not what this is about. This is about the tuning of the raw materials. And this example shows, more clearly even than the one in my previous post, that there's something wrong.
> Surely, after hearing this, it can no longer be denied?
> 
> _



I'm a bit late to this discussion, but the tuning here is very disconcerting! I must say, I have not noticed the issue in my use of HS. Different context, keys etc may have something to do with it, but I also rarely use violas so 'exposed' so maybe the tuning issue has been somewhat 'hidden' in my cues. Re-Peat, is the tuning definitely as bad with the Legato 6LT patch?

Regarding 'ease of use' which was worrying Guy and a few others. I can work very quickly with HS now. My present template, and the one used for the "Prayer For the Dying" demo is Legato 6LT for all sections except 1st Violins which use the 12LT for separate Vibrato control. I don't try and 'play' the vibrato expression usually. Instead, I 'play' the bowing strength and then just draw in the vibrato afterwards. You really can do it very quickly, but in most cases the combined 6LT patches work just fine and are very nicely programmed. 

~C


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## OB.one (Apr 30, 2011)

Hello Re-peat and everybody there.

I've just heard your "HS_Violas_ex3" and for me it sounds so out of tune than it could be more a kind of bug, glitch, streaming pb than an "out of tune issue".

You should post the midi file (so we have all your controllers informations) from the viola part from 30 seconds when begin the serious problems, precising the viola patch name you are using so we can see if we get the same results.

Nonetheless this library is gorgeous, i've heard again all naked demos of Thomas on soundsonline and when you put the dry versions inside QL Space with S. Call Hall Full Orc TS FR 3.5s preset the result is sublime.

Best Regards from Paris

Olivier aka OB.one

http://www.myspace.com/obonemusic
http://soundcloud.com/lentresol-sound-studio


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## re-peat (Apr 30, 2011)

rpaillot @ Sat Apr 30 said:


> Honestly I dont see any problems with the EX2 file. ( I might have to change my ears !!!! )


*Rpaillot,*

If I weren't a musician, I'd envy your blissful immuneness to out-of-tune pitches. To my ears, that second example is actually very much out of tune, at times quite painfully so even.
You're not bothered in the least by what happens at, say, 0:05 or the descending line that starts at 0:21? Or the notes between 0:33 and 0:36? Me, I cringe everytime I have to listen to that. (It's been a cringe-full day so far.)

Example 3 is even much worse of course. That could well be a caricature of an out-of tune string ensemble. But again, the tuning problems, to my ears anyway, start much earlier than the obvious ones which begin at 0:30. For instance, I find the chord at 0:17 totally unacceptable. If ever I were to find myself in front of stringplayers who produce that awful a tone, I'd fire them all on the spot.

*Chis,*

I haven't tried each and every violas legato patch of course. I have better and more pleasant things to do. But seriously, even assuming that there are viola patches in HS which have no tuning issues whatsoever (something which I highly doubt, by the way), should that mean that we have to keep silent about those which obviously are not in tune?

The one I used, for both examples 2 and 3, is the *Violas Leg BC LT 12 Ni* in the '08 Legato Bow Change'-folder. And I didn't do anything special or unusual with it: I simply loaded it and improvised a few lines over some celli backing. Nothing out of the ordinary.
Whatever the quality of the other patches may be, is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned : a patch like that, simply shouldn't be among the patches of a pro library which HS definitely is, in my opinion. And it urgently needs to be looked at by its makers, I believe.

_


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## noiseboyuk (Apr 30, 2011)

re-peat @ Sat Apr 30 said:


> Example 3 is even much worse of course. That could well be a caricature of an out-of tune string ensemble. But again, the tuning problems, to my ears anyway, start much earlier than the obvious ones which begin at 0:30. For instance, I find the chord at 0:17 totally unacceptable. If ever I were to find myself in front of stringplayers who produce that awful a tone, I'd fire them all on the spot.



As I suspected, I'm not super-sensitive to tuning... 17s came and went without a flicker for me. But good lord 32s didn't, that is an absolute HOWLER.

Why not post the midi of this for someone else to try just to make sure there isn't some utterly bizarre update / scripting thing going on?


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## ChrisAxia (Apr 30, 2011)

re-peat @ Sat Apr 30 said:


> *Chis,*
> 
> I haven't tried each and every violas legato patch of course. I have better and more pleasant things to do. But seriously, even assuming that there are viola patches in HS which have no tuning issues whatsoever (something which I highly doubt, by the way), should that mean that we have to keep silent about those which obviously are not in tune?
> 
> ...



I'm not saying you should have to try every patch, and I certainly haven't. I was just curious if the tuning issue might be specific to certain patches. If it is indeed the same in the Leg 6LT patch I have been using, my ears may need a good clean out! The tuning should certainly be fixed by EW in a future update.

~C


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 30, 2011)

re-peat @ Sat Apr 30 said:


> rpaillot @ Sat Apr 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly I dont see any problems with the EX2 file. ( I might have to change my ears !!!! )
> ...



OK, I don't know what's going on but here is a quickie I did in 10 minutes with no programming other than a little mod wheel and sustain pedal. I used that same viola patch Piet used over cellos and it is in the same tessitura.

Apparently, I am insensitive to tuning  but even if you are not, certainly it sounds nowhere nearly as out of tune as in Piet's ex. 3.

http://soundcloud.com/jay-asher/piets-patch

Let's say for the sake of argument that out of the tons of patches HS has, there are indeed some that have some notes that are "somewhat off." The same is true of LASS. If I go through my other orchestral libraries I bet I will find some in ones that were released quite some time ago and were never fixed. It hardly renders any of them unprofessional or unusable to me. If EW has the time to go through the ones users like yourself point out and fixes them, great. If not, I can live with it. 

Where the rubber meets the road is "overly." For me, it would not be a deal breaker for Hollywood Strings OR for LASS . But that is for each potential user to decide. 

Piet, I asked you if you could send me the Logic file so I an see if I get the same result bouncing it so we can determine for a certainty that it is not system specific. I still think that is a good idea.


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## rpaillot (Apr 30, 2011)

Speaking about LASS.

Its probably one of the most out of tune strings library I ever had. Especially the first chair.
Still usable though.


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## rayinstirling (Apr 30, 2011)

Jay,

You're having a laugh.......right?

Yes I expect to get this post deleted but who cares.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 30, 2011)

rayinstirling @ Sat Apr 30 said:


> Jay,
> 
> You're having a laugh.......right?
> 
> Yes I expect to get this post deleted but who cares.



I have no idea what that comment means.


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## rayinstirling (Apr 30, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Apr 30 said:


> rayinstirling @ Sat Apr 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Jay,
> ...



What it means is,
I don't own HS or LASS for that matter so I'm not getting involved in a discussion about what standard of sample is expected depending on the cost of the library. I think Thomas's examples prove without doubt HS can sound fantastic however, when someone like yourself posts an example which does the opposite (because it's out of tune) and other members chip in by saying they don't hear any problem with the tuning, I must ask myself. Who would I trust to give me meaningful review of any cue I present here? Very few is my answer although I note many "networking friends" are keeping their opinions to themselves by not commenting in this thread.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 30, 2011)

rayinstirling @ Sat Apr 30 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Apr 30 said:
> 
> 
> > rayinstirling @ Sat Apr 30 said:
> ...



I simply don't hear my example as out of tune and would not hesitate to use it after of course I did it for real instead of in 10 minutes. If you do, fine I bow to keener ears and will not post more examples but leave that to T.J., who does so so well.


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## Stephen Baysted (Apr 30, 2011)

There are some fairly shocking intonational issues with all the examples posted above IMO, though in Jay's example they're not quite so gruesome as in Piet's. Intonational variance is highly desirable of course, but not beyond the bounds of what would require another recording take. 

Like Chris, I can't say I've come across this issue before, but then my issue is with the Rice Krispies SFX that plague my install on an i7 slave with SSD.


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## EvilDragon (Apr 30, 2011)

Piet's examples are horribly out of tune to me.


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## re-peat (Apr 30, 2011)

Jay,
Guy,
OB.one,
(and everyone who keeps asking for midi- or Logic-files)

Forgive me for getting ever so slightly irritated again, but why do you people keep questioning my ability to simply load a patch, play a few honest notes and post the results? And why, and this is even more to the point, would I ever want to manifest myself as a complete idiot in public, reporting a flaw if I wasn’t absolutely and totally sure of the reliabilty of the system (sound- and software) I used for testing?

This actually reminds me of the time, a few years back on NorthernSounds, when I expressed some doubts about the timbre of the Garritan GoFriller, and was immediately replied with accusations that either my ears or my soundsystem (or both) weren't good enough to evaluate the instrument. Excuse me if I find these types of replies (and that also includes demands for Logic- or midifiles as well, I'm afraid) borderline insulting and very childish. I make music for a living (for many a decade by now), I happen to own nearly every serious orchestral library under the sun, I work with these tools everyday and, believe me, I know a bug or a glitch when I come across one. And I also hear when something is in tune or not.

Besides, Jay, give me one good reason why I should be inclined to trust your expertise and judgement in these matters. I can’t think of one, I’m sorry to say. The two examples you’ve posted in this thread are both strong contenders for the most out-of-tune and horrible sounding uses of Hollywood Strings that I have ever heard (next to mine of course, but at least, with me, the poor tuning is precisely what I want to illustrate).

And another question. Do I have a reputation for unsubstantiated ranting or whining about flaws, bugs and glitches in software? I don't think I do. Only very, very rarely will you find me joining in a discussion that targets shortcomings in soft- or soundware (except when it's related to the diarrhea-inducing catalogue of Kirk Hunter of course). So, whenever I *do* report a weakness, like I’m doing in this thread, I’m completely sure of my case and absolutely convinced it is one worth informing the developer about. And I have no other wish, desire or intention than to see the product-under-scrutiny, HS in this case, improved.

But like I said, this isn't about bugs or glitches, or midi or user errors. It's got nothing to do with streaming issues, or derailed scripts, or some failure in my system or in Logic, or me inadvertently touching the pitchwheel during recording or whatever ... These are simply out-of-tune violas samples. Everyone who owns HS can quickly check this for themselves. Load the patch, play the notes I played (or some others), and listen. And everybody who doesn’t own HS, simply has to listen to Jay’s two examples (or mine).

Do you hear me complaining about the violins? No. Or the celli or basses? No. I don't. But the violas, that's a different matter. Why? Because that's beyond acceptable, in my opinion. Not every note in every violas patch of course, but enough to sound the alarm, I believe. These violas can, and really should be improved. To my ears (and other user's ears as well), this particular section of the otherwise magnificent HS stringorchestra is in need of some renewed attention from the people who program and tune the EW libraries. That's all. For the last time: I love HS to bits. I only wish its violas were more in tune.

Here's a tip, Jay: why not ask Thomas to produce a demo that has exposed violas which are musically in perfect tune, like he did with his gorgeous celli demos? (And a piece which explores the entire register of the violas of course, not just those notes that are passable.)

Anyway, to show what in my opinion needs no longer showing: here’s yet another example, plus a midifile this time. (I’m afraid I didn’t keep the Logic-files of the examples I made earlier. Can you blame me?)

*audio:* http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas_ex4.mp3 (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... as_ex4.mp3)
*midi:* http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas_ex4.mid (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... as_ex4.mid)

The patches used are: 
*violas:* Violas Legato BC LT 12 Ni
*celli:* Celli 1 NV NV NV VB RR Ni

No processing whatsoever. Just the dry patches as they appear in their default state after loading.

_


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## noiseboyuk (Apr 30, 2011)

Great, this should be a definitive test. I've no axe to grind, Peit - your examples are clearly waaay out of tune that we can all hear, others say they can't get their own libraries that out of tune so it's a simple (if tedious from your perspective) fault-finding exercise to work through. I wouldn't take it as any slight - if it were to turn out that there is some buggy scripting which only comes to light on your host (for unlikely example) it wouldn't be your fault anyway.


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## JohnG (Apr 30, 2011)

Yep -- needs a touch-up. Looking forward to that.

I love violas too, so I am excited about it.


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## RiffWraith (Apr 30, 2011)

Ok, I am going to chime in here. 

There are _definitve_ tuning issues with Peit's ex2. If you can't hear tuning issues there, well, then, I am not sure what to tell you.

Jay's example also has tuning issues, but they are not as evident as Peit's - in fact, those issues are slight. But they definitely are there.

Now, not being an owner of HS, I cant begin to start in with, "well, maybe it's this, maybe it's that...", in fact I do wonder if the tuning issues are due to the way the musicians played, a scripting thing, a mod wheel thing....the list goes on.

But there are tuning issues evident in both examples.

Cheers.


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## Melodioso (Apr 30, 2011)

re-peat @ Sat 30 Apr said:


> [...]
> 
> Anyway, to show what in my opinion needs no longer showing: here’s yet another example, plus a midifile this time. (I’m afraid I didn’t keep the Logic-files of the examples I made earlier. Can you blame me?)
> 
> ...


Ouch. That's not even a High School orchestra. It should be easy enough for the owner of HS to load the midi file and the patch in their sequencer and post the result, hopefully. If I were an East West employee, I would respond quite fast to this issue. HS sounds otherwise magnificent.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 30, 2011)

re-peat @ Sat Apr 30 said:


> Jay,
> Guy,
> OB.one,
> (and everyone who keeps asking for midi- or Logic-files)
> ...



Got it Piet, you have no reason to respect my expertise and judgement. I am not asking you to. I have no interest in trying to persuade you otherwise if my long career, my authorship of 2 Logic books, and your experiences with me have not. Nor I am implying that you lack any skill. I only want the Logic file to bounce to eliminate the possibility that something is going wrong on your system, because IMHO nobody can say my example is even close to being as out of tune as yours. Not even in the same league.

If you did not save the Logic file nonetheless you should be able to recreate the issue fairly easily. I used exactly the same viola patch, played it in with no fuss or bother in 10 minutes. I will simply look at it, play it, and bounce it and if it sounds identical it sounds identical and if it doesn't then we will have to see where that leaves us.

I will try the MIDI file later and report back. I WILL say that this mp3 does not sound nearly as out of tune as the other which was really bad.


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## noiseboyuk (May 1, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Apr 30 said:


> I will try the MIDI file later and report back. I WILL say that this mp3 does not sound nearly as out of tune as the other which was really bad.



Anxiously awaiting the result... the tension bed is still playing...

For some reason I just remembered Nick's first preview video of HS. Remember the quote that got many people laughing? "Let's skip the violas..."


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## Windle (May 1, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Apr 30 said:


> OK, I don't know what's going on but here is a quickie I did in 10 minutes with no programming other than a little mod wheel and sustain pedal. I used that same viola patch Piet used over cellos and it is in the same tessitura.
> 
> Apparently, I am insensitive to tuning  but even if you are not, certainly it sounds nowhere nearly as out of tune as in Piet's ex. 3.
> 
> http://soundcloud.com/jay-asher/piets-patch



Yikes! You posted this? Seriously? Are you a double-agent for VSL or something?

Apart from the tuning still not being good - not as bad as the other examples but nothing to shout about - what about all the artefacts and bobbles in the sound? The tone here sounds so bad, un-even and generally unnatural that it made me shudder.

And this was "a little mod wheel and sustain pedal" which shows a degree of having done some work on it.

So my first thought would be have you got HS set-up correctly?

If you're sure it's not a software glitch on your system, then how can you account for the horrendous sound?

Or do you really think the example you posted here is acceptable and proved your point?

I'm sorry this post will come over as confrontational and not a little sarcastic but reading all the "advice and help" that has been given to re-peat that I can't help thinking that there is some serious denial going on.

W.


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## Tanuj Tiku (May 1, 2011)

There are definitely tuning issues in all of the examples. 

Also,

In Piet's Example No: 3 - What is that click sound around 00:53 and then again at 00:57?

TJ's Example sounds fantastic. 

I agree with Piet that what kind of glitch could cause tuning problems with a particular software and only in the Violas? Its just out of the question. 

There are over all tuning issues it seems with HS. I hope these get ironed out because I was planning on purchasing it!

I thought this latest update would seal all of the problems. 

TJ, 

With ALL due respect the fact that it is a deep and large library does not justify the tuning problems. So was VSL for its time and I dont think it had so many tuning issues that were not resolved in the following updates. VSL is still a very large library actually. 

But thank you for coming out here and addressing the problems. I hope all these issues are resolved soon!


All developers work hard and we must be patient but at the same time I hope East West will get this fixed ASAP! The tone of this library is really good and I also look forward to Brass!


Best,

Tanuj.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 1, 2011)

Windle @ Sun May 01 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Apr 30 said:
> 
> 
> > OK, I don't know what's going on but here is a quickie I did in 10 minutes with no programming other than a little mod wheel and sustain pedal. I used that same viola patch Piet used over cellos and it is in the same tessitura.
> ...



I did it in 10 minutes, one pass at each part while simultaneously moving the modwheel. And the patches Piet used are not the ones I would use if I were doing it for real. This one was _strictly_ for the tuning, which I made clear.

I don't recall seeing you here before or know who you are but a couple of months ago I posted an example that I did spend time on and it was well received.

And you need not be sorry, I am not bothered by confrontation or sarcasm which is why I took on this job, which I knew would mean dealing with both.


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## rayinstirling (May 1, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 01 said:


> And you need not be sorry, I am not bothered by confrontation or sarcasm which is why I took on this job, which I knew would mean dealing with both.



"I am not bothered by confrontation or sarcasm unless it is from people whose work I know and respect.."

Yes you did say that then seemingly thought better of it changing it quickly.
I was about to say sense at last but no, you let the opportunity pass.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 1, 2011)

rayinstirling @ Sun May 01 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 01 said:
> 
> 
> > And you need not be sorry, I am not bothered by confrontation or sarcasm which is why I took on this job, which I knew would mean dealing with both.
> ...



Well, thank you for respecting my decision to change it :roll: :lol: 

When I read it after I posted it I realized that it was off the point. Truthfully though, isn't is true of all of us? If someone who has earned our respect criticizes our work does it not bother us enough to re-examine it where we might not if it is a person whose work we do not know?

BTW, as Paul says of his grandfather in "A Hard Day's Night" "he's a king mixer." You are bit of that. no? :D


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## re-peat (May 1, 2011)

In absence of any serious rebuttal to anything I’ve been saying and demonstrating, I’ve done three more examples (and saved the midi-data of each one as well). 

*But first, have a listen to this:*
audio: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HSViolasWaltz.mp3 (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... sWaltz.mp3)
midi: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HSViolasWaltz.mid (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... sWaltz.mid)

Believe it or not (you probably won’t, but it is the godhonest truth): these are unedited, unmodified HS violas (the patch is called *Violas Legato BC RR LT 6 Ni*) straight out of the box, placed in front of a waltzing backdrop rendered with 2 other non-EW libraries. Honestly, I didn’t mess with anything here, this is how these violas sound after you load them.

Anyway, back to the demo’s. The first two (ex.5 and ex.6) are using the same patches as my examples from yesterday, but for the third one (ex.7), I tried a different violas patch: *Violas Leg BC + Slur LT 12 Ni*

*Example 5*
audio: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas_ex5.mp3 (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... as_ex5.mp3)
midi: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas_ex5.mid (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... as_ex5.mid)

*Example 6*
audio: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas_ex6.mp3 (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... as_ex6.mp3)
midi: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas_ex6.mid (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... as_ex6.mid)

*Example 7*
audio: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas_ex7.mp3 (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... as_ex7.mp3)
midi: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas_ex7.mid (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... as_ex7.mid)

We needn’t bother with the first two examples for too long, because they illustrate the same ridiculous out-of-tune-ness as I’ve been demonstrating since the beginning of this thread. I only provide them here so that other HS users can verify them on their own systems (and I sure would like to hear some results/findings one of these days).

But the third one (ex.7) is perhaps a little bit more interesting: while this fragment is obviously nowhere near as out of tune as my previous examples, I still do believe — and any serious user with me, I’m sure — that this degree of poor intonation is quite unacceptable in a professional, high-end library like HS. If this type of badly intonated playing were produced by a real strings ensemble, they’d be laughed off of the stage at once. And rightly so.

So, even if we disregard the more extreme manifestations of out-of-tune-ness in some of the HS violas patches — those which, I think, have meanwhile been demonstrated more than sufficiently, both by me and by a surprisingly coöperative EastWest online coördinator — there’s still the less prominent, but equally unmusical out-of-tune-ness in all too many HS violas patches to consider. And I hope EastWest will do just that, as soon as possible.

And Jay, rather than keeping to doubt my system, isn’t it about time that you, the officialy appointed EW representative among us, produced a really good-sounding violas example? I mean, what’s the problem? Is your system flaky as well perhaps? This thread’s been going on for 4 pages by now — it’s been over two days since I posted my first example — and all we’ve heard so far are dreadfully out-of-tune violas, both from me and from you. 
If the reliability of my system should indeed be the reason for my out-of-tune violas, if my claims and conclusions are indeed unfounded, then surely, it should be a piece of cake for you to come up with a violas example that is NOT out of tune, no? Here’s another tip: maybe try the viola patches in the '01 Long'-folder. Those are reasonably in tune, as I’ve discovered in the meantime. And most of the ‘Powerful Systems’-ones (at least, the few which I managed to test today) are fairly decent too.

So, the good news is that not all the viola patches are as bad as the ones I've been focusing on in the previous examples. But that, to me, is still no excuse for those awful ones to be included in a product like HS in the first place. Like EastWest Lurker says, and I completely agree: _there are patches in HS which he wouldn't use if he was 'doing it for real'_. Remarkable, isn't it?

_


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## rabiang (May 1, 2011)

i havent heard all the examples, its too painful. But i have certainly heard enough.

i just wanted to say thanks to re-peat for having the guts (and the glory) for doing this. i know many who wouldnt have the same guts, due to 'intricate relations in the business'.


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## OB.one (May 1, 2011)

Hello Piet,

Just listened your last examples : no comment ... :cry: 

I will try to replicate your examples on my system in my studio this coming week and compare with your results.

Best Regards

Olivier


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## Simon Ravn (May 1, 2011)

While I haven't listened to all the demos presented here yet, I have heard the first batch, and it doesn't sound too good... Obviously a lot of tuning still to be done here.

And I think it's a tragedy when an individual feels such a strong loyalty to his company that he can't even admit a problem when it is so clearly obvious as the reality is here. I don't know if this is EW policy, that employees are not allowed to engage in these kinds of topics - however it doesn't seem so, because EW Lurker has been posting countless posts in various threads regarding issues with PLAY and now HS violas -- it's just that not much is being said except for some vague, evading answers that any politician would be proud of. Denial and evation.

2-3 years ago:

"PLAY has no major problems".
"PLAY is the most sofisticated sample player, much better than Kontakt".

1 year later:
"We fixed a lot of issues in this update of PLAY".

One month ago:
"Loading of PLAY instruments can't be any faster, it is because our instruments are soooo sofisticated compared to anything Kontakt".

A few days ago:
"The new version of PLAY will have faster loading times".
"There are no tuning problems with the violas in HS".

X months from now (prediction):
"We fixed a lot of tuning issues regarding the violas in HS".
"PLAY now uses a new file format which loads faster, just like Kontakt".


Seriously EastWest, can't you see how ridiculous it makes you look?

If that is the interaction the company wants to have with their customers, well... so be it, but it is of no use at all to the users - it's just frustrating and unprofessional.


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## doubleattack (May 1, 2011)

Windle @ Sun 01 May said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Apr 30 said:
> 
> 
> > OK, I don't know what's going on but here is a quickie I did in 10 minutes with no programming other than a little mod wheel and sustain pedal. I used that same viola patch Piet used over cellos and it is in the same tessitura.
> ...




The general sound of this example is negligible, 'cause the reason for it is the 128 kbps mp3 format of the soundcloud platform. Every unedited and un-mastered track sounds in this way over there.

The tuning issues are obvious indeed.


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## Stephen Baysted (May 1, 2011)

Re-Peat - holy shit! EX5 and 6 are horrendous!; ex7 reminds me of a fair few student ensembles over the years where you just wish that they had been playing arpeggiones instead. Still, as John said, this can presumably easily be fixed and tweaked - though I hope they don't force it into equal temperament.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 1, 2011)

[quote="re-peat @ Sun May 01, 2011 8:02 am"

1. And Jay, rather than keeping to doubt my system, isn’t it about time that you, the officialy appointed EW representative among us, produced a really good-sounding violas example? I mean, what’s the problem? Is your system flaky as well perhaps? This thread’s been going on for 4 pages by now — it’s been over two days since I posted my first example — 

2. and all we’ve heard so far are dreadfully out-of-tune violas, both from me and from you. 


3. So, the good news is that not all the viola patches are as bad as the ones I've been focusing on in the previous examples. But that, to me, is still no excuse for those awful ones to be included in a product like HS in the first place.

4. Like EastWest Lurker says, and I completely agree: _there are patches in HS which he wouldn't use if he was 'doing it for real'_. Remarkable, isn't it?

_[/quote]

1. EW does not want me to do that when there have guys like TJ to do so and it is not part of my job.

2. I would not describe the one I posted as "dreadfully out of tune" and several others here either publicly or privately have assured me that they would not either. If I thought it was, I wouldn't have posted it. If others disagree, fine, it is not a problem for me. I have not yet listened to the ones you just posted but only 1 of the previous ones, ex. 3 I believe, would fit that description for me and I cannot reproduce near that degree of out of tune with those patches that you used nor seemingly has anyone else.

3. In any library this size there can be some bad patches EW has steadily fixed a bunch of them in the past and no doubt will continue to do so in the future as they are brought to their attention when they agree they need it.

4. I do not use the bow change patches not because of any deficiency in them but because I find it easier to produce good sounding strings lines for what I am hired to write with the Legato Slur, KS Mod Shorts and Pizz patches. It is strictly a personal preference.

Hollywood Strings is a library that is geared to sound like a real string section. Real string sections do not play perfectly in tune on every note with every articulation. Synthesizers do. HS is not a synthesizer.

I have written this several times: where the breaking point is is "overly" out of tune and that may vary from potential user to potential user. My friend Bruce Miller told Andrew LASS was "unusable" because it was so out of tune. I told him that I thought that was completely wrong and that the proof was that so many talented composers are using it successfully. The same is true of HS. There are too many talented composers using it regularly for the tuning to be THAT big an issue. 

But every potential user is entitled to draw the line where they see fit. It is not something one user can convince another of.

There really is nothing more for me to say on this, either as EatWestLurker or Ashermusic.


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## synergy543 (May 1, 2011)

Ouch! 

Repeat's post was "painful" but this official response is rather shocking.

------------------------------------------------------
This sounds like a DENIAL OF SERVICE attack.
------------------------------------------------------

I have paid a lot of money to EW over the years, and I'm very glad I did not purchase Hollywood Strings.

My money will go towards companies than support their products, and their users.

@DanJay - you should consider changing the title of this thread as its misleading.


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## noiseboyuk (May 1, 2011)

Must admit Jay I'm pretty disappointed in this response. Just as TJ had me swinging back towards EW, I've swung away again.

It's your job - as EastWestLurker - to build bridges between a company that has had some PR issues and the community that uses them. Many people who use HS paid $1,700, and one of the sections is frequently so bad it's almost pain-inducing. It's a mystery to me how this has been put up with for so long (are all the viola-player jokes true? Does no-one actually use them cos they can't play?!)

IMHO, in the face of what we've heard here, there's only one acceptable response - "yes some of the Viola patches still need work - please accept our apologies while we fix it". I know that particular response isn't in the East West DNA... and in its absence its as good a reason as any, as Synergy suggests above, to look elsewhere where you'll get better support.


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## Stephen Baysted (May 1, 2011)

hmm, there's something a little funky going on here I think. 

Re-Peat - I've just loaded the HS vla patch in question, imported your midi file (example 5) and on my system it sounds a little different to yours - not quite so odd either in isolation or with a different library playing your celli line. I wonder whether the intonational issues are being heightened by their discrepancy with the celli patch. Which celli patch are you using?


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## OB.one (May 1, 2011)

"@OB.one - you should consider changing the title of this thread as its misleading."

Hello Synergy : just to precise i am not the author of this thread :wink: 

Best Regards to you and all the users there.

Olivier


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## re-peat (May 1, 2011)

Jay,

*(1)*
Possibly. But since you’ve suggested and maintain that my system might be the reason for the out-of-tune-ness I’m getting, I would have thought it a very quick and simple task for you — with all your certified experience, your long career and your 2 Logic books — to instantly produce something for us, using the HS violas (with the same patches as I’ve been using of course) which is in tune. You haven’t done anything of the sort thusfar.

You don’t have to do this for me, you know. You and me, we are both insignificant. EastWest (either through you or somebody else) should do it for the hundreds of people who are following this thread. And if I had anything to do with it: as soon as possible.
(I’ve posted my first midifile more than 24 hours ago. Why haven’t you or anyone else from EastWest jumped on it and rendered it with the same patches I’ve been using BUT perfectly in tune?)

*(2)*
As for messages of agreement which you claim to have received in private: I better not disclose what I’ve been reading and hearing on the subject of your musical examples. You’d probably accuse me of character assassination again, if I did.

*(3)*
Like I said on numerous occasions: that is precisely the point of my contribution in this thread: bring certain flaws in HS to the attention of EastWest. The reason it’s taking so goddamn long (much longer than I anticipated), is that everyone who’s related to EastWest and who has participated in this thread, has done almost nothing but ignore, dismiss or ridicule whatever critical remarks some of us users have submitted. 
Believe me, if either one of you three (you, Gerd and Thomas) had said something like: _“Yes, we are very much aware of intonation problems in some of the viola patches and we’re working on it”_, this thread would have stopped immediately, as far as I’m concerned anyway, with a sincere _“Thank you very much!”_ from me on page two. And that would have been the end of it. 

*(4) *
What you use or don’t use to produce those _"good sounding string lines"_ (which none of us have ever heard of course) is irrelevant. It’s what’s included in HS that is relevant. The product as it is currently being sold, that's what this is about. There’s a few stomach-turning stinkers in there in dire need of a serious revision. That is what is relevant. Not your personal preferences.

*(5)*
I seem to remember me singing the praises of HS throughout this thread. It *is* a gò £   ¸ï“ £   ¸ð2 £   ¹N £   ¹k £   ¹Ð £   ¹ £   ¹-Â £   ¹-Ò £   ¹4’ £   ¹4æ £   ¹¦• £   ¹¦© £   ¹Û“ £   ¹ÛÞ £   ¹ÿ” £   ¹ÿ¼ £   ºÌ £   ºÞ £   º0Ô £   º2Ž £   º>ö £   º?- £   º?Ô £   º@H £   ºpŽ £   ºpõ £   º|" £   º|/ £   º}¬ £   º}¼ £   º» £   º»ï £   ºÜ  £   ºÜ‡ £   ºÝ_ £   ºÝ‹ £   ºôö £   ºõ £   ºø £   ºø@ £   »€ £   » £   »F\ £   »J[ £   »Kw £   »qà £   »rÛ £   »D £   »ç· £   »ë4 £   »îZ £   »îv £   »ø £   »ø £   ¼Ì £   ¼ð £   ¼…} £   ¼…Æ £   ¼v £   ¼‰ £   ¼Ÿö £   ¼ 	 £   ½& £   ½&ó £   ½©ª £   ½©


----------



## EastWest Lurker (May 1, 2011)

re-peat @ Sun May 01 said:


> Jay,
> 
> *(1)*
> Possibly. But since you’ve suggested and maintain that my system might be the reason for the out-of-tune-ness I’m getting, I would have thought it a very quick and simple task for you — with all your certified experience, your long career and your 2 Logic books — to instantly produce something for us, using the HS violas (with the same patches as I’ve been using of course) which is in tune. You haven’t done anything of the sort thusfar.
> ...



Piet, once again, I am not challenging your sincerity or your skills. And I appreciate you and anyone else uncovering problems if they are there. Now that you have posted the MIDI files and mp3s, I've forwarded your files to the producers who tell me "they will look into the issue tomorrow, thank you for bringing this to our attention, it will be resolved quickly if they can reproduce the issue".

As Rousseau said in his last post, because I have not been using the BC patches it is possible I have not encountered issues that exist.

BTW, I agree with everything Rousseau wrote in his last post.


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## Windle (May 1, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 01 said:


> I don't recall seeing you here before or know who you are but a couple of months ago I posted an example that I did spend time on and it was well received.
> 
> I am not bothered by confrontation or sarcasm unless it is from people whose work I know and respect..



Ah, the "Show Us Your Medals" defence!

Should it matter than I chose to remain anonymous? In some ways I can see both sides. A discussion with a 13 year old looking to get his kicks by stirring up trouble and then departing is a waste of everyone's time. However, the flip side is that people well-established in the industry would be wary of saying very much in a public forum for fear that it may affect relationships in a business that is smaller than most outsiders think. 

Re-peat was brave enough to stick his head above the parapet and express some well-intentioned and serious issues with HS strings. He provided plenty of examples but they did not seem to be seriously acknowledged and his integrity questioned.

He is right. They don't sound good and they are not in tune for too much of the time.

Unless enough users speak up about this then EW have no reason to fix these problems. A simple statement from EW saying to the effect of "we hear this as well, we're not yet satisfied with this either and are looking to improve the situation" would go a long way but it countless opportunities to do this from anyone in the company have been and gone and I suspect you're getting the backlash at this frustration.

The internet remembers everything both good and bad so I can understand why companies don't want their costly-to-produce products casually slated for all-time, but this is also an opportunity for them to acknowledge issues, improve their product and build a loyal customer base.

Constant denial, no matter what evidence presented, only ends up alienating potential and current customers.

W.


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## Craig Sharmat (May 1, 2011)

First, I want to thank Piet for keeping this conversation civil (it could have run off the rails). I believe in certain ways he is helping East-West troubleshoot some problems. I have run over the Viola patch in question and have found a few issues whether it be a few legato notes or a few single notes unattached. That said there may be workarounds for some of the problems by maybe using some other viola patch. This is not an elegant solution of course, but might still provide a workaround.

I have recorded with others, 4 custom libraries and up till recently preferred them in general over my commercial libraries. All four have problems but less so than the commercial ones for whatever reason. I know in the heat of battle while recording certain things inevitably get missed, pitchy attacks, some sustained issues, players getting tired and needing to move on to make the session happen etc. As a consumer we of course want a perfect product but with a library of this magnitude things are going to slip through the cracks. that's just a reality. There may be ways of fixing some issues. Some notes start pitchy and correct themselves while others are just out within themselves. it may not be a perfect solution but sometimes a note can be borrowed from a minor second away and re-pitched. Not perfect but maybe more playable. In other cases it may not be worth EW to fix it. Hopefully through this thread some of the issues can be worked out.

Still, this is a great library though maybe with some faults, but I have not seen any library having all 3 of the following attributes... comprehensive arts, sonically acceptable for most occasions, and pitched well enough on every sample to be deemed totally usable. Many of us are idealistic being that is often the nature of being a composer, and then disappointed when a library does not deliver a perfect performance being either pitchy or sonically lacking. Most people who own this library seem very happy with it. It certainly is unique and cinematic sounding, and to many that's reason enough to own it.


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## Vision (May 1, 2011)

Well put Craig. I would say (for good reason) that Piet is more upset with how his integrity is being perceived at this point.


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## Craig Sharmat (May 1, 2011)

i don't think Piet being untruthful has ever been an issue, maybe the opposite.


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## Gerd Kaeding (May 1, 2011)

re-peat @ Sun May 01 said:


> Believe me, if either one of you three (you, Gerd and Thomas) had said something like: _“Yes, we are very much aware of intonation problems in some of the viola patches and we’re working on it”_, this thread would have stopped immediately, as far as I’m concerned anyway, with a sincere _“Thank you very much!”_ from me on page two. And that would have been the end of it.



Hi Piet ,

just for the record :

I'm not associated with EastWest in _any _way ( ... how did you come to that conclusion ?). 
In my first post I pointed you to EW techsupport ( because I consider it 
simply more efficient to directly report issues to the producer) . 
In my second post I confirmed one of your issues. 

So , I'm a little bit confused to find my name in your above post .

Anyway ,
regards

Gerd


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## EastWest Lurker (May 1, 2011)

Vision @ Sun May 01 said:


> Well put Craig. I would say (for good reason) that Piet is more upset with how his integrity is being perceived at this point.



For a third time, I am not or have not challenged Piet's intentions, skills or integrity. And if EW is able to reproduce what he has shown, he will indeed be entitled to an "attaboy."


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## Vision (May 1, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 01 said:


> Vision @ Sun May 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Well put Craig. I would say (for good reason) that Piet is more upset with how his integrity is being perceived at this point.
> ...



I'm not trying to say that you are disrespecting him intentionally.


----------



## Vision (May 1, 2011)

> And if EW is able to reproduce what he has shown, he will indeed be entitled to an "attaboy



I don't think there is any question that this particular patch is out of tune. I've tried it on my system. The "if East West is able to reproduce" statement is a bit off base IMO.. respectfully.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 1, 2011)

Vision @ Sun May 01 said:


> > And if EW is able to reproduce what he has shown, he will indeed be entitled to an "attaboy
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think there is any question that this particular patch is out of tune. I've tried it on my system. The "if East West is able to reproduce" statement is a bit off base IMO.. respectfully.



Perhaps so, maybe even if you like probably so, but my job title is Online Co-orindator, not tester, not developer, and truthfully, this is a very large library and I probably have only ever used 1/3 of all the patches. 

Until the people whose job it is to test it do so, I would be over-stepping my very limited position, which is to try to communicate to them in a dispassionate what you guys are saying and then to try to communicate to you folks in a dispassionate what their response is.

And the last few days, I think am really earning my money


----------



## Vision (May 1, 2011)

I got ya.


----------



## re-peat (May 1, 2011)

Gerd Kaeding @ Sun May 01 said:


> Hi Piet, just for the record: I'm not associated with EastWest in _any _way ( ... how did you come to that conclusion ?). (...) So , I'm a little bit confused to find my name in your above post .



Gerd, I'm very, very sorry. Entirely my mistake. I was really under the impression, with the way you provided me with such detailed instructions on how to contact EW's support and all, that you somehow belonged to their staff. 
I hope you will accept my finely tuned apologies for this misunderstanding.

Piet

_


----------



## Gerd Kaeding (May 1, 2011)

re-peat @ Sun May 01 said:


> Gerd Kaeding @ Sun May 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Piet, just for the record: I'm not associated with EastWest in _any _way ( ... how did you come to that conclusion ?). (...) So , I'm a little bit confused to find my name in your above post .
> ...



No need to apologize, Piet .
I just mentioned it for the record. 

The detailed way of pointing others to techsupport is just a kind of german disease and has nothing to do with EastWest .


However , I have to add that I wouldn't have any problem at all being associated with EastWest , Jay , Thomas ... . 


Love & Peace to all here in this thread ...
What was once detuned shall be in tune again ...

Gerd


----------



## autopilot (May 1, 2011)

Just like Bach, things seem to be resolving well here.


----------



## RiffWraith (May 1, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 01 said:


> Hollywood Strings is a library that is geared to sound like a real string section. Real string sections do not play perfectly in tune on every note with every articulation. Synthesizers do. HS is not a synthesizer.



I am sorry Jay, but - with respect - you areò ¦   •žP ¦   •ž ¦   • ¾ ¦   • þ ¦   •¦  ¦   •¦ú ¦   •ö ¦   •öT ¦   —× ¦   —‘ ¦   —Î¿ ¦   —Îî ¦   ˜lð ¦   ˜mq ¦   ˜pã ¦   ˜q_ ¦   ™o ¦   ™oA ¦   ›‡Q ¦   ›‡l ¦   ›ø› ¦   ›øÖ ¦   ›û9 ¦   ›û“ ¦   œ& ¦   œ ¦   œ2K ¦   œ2¡ ¦   œ Z ¦   œ¡ ¦   œçf ¦   œç¿ ¦   œçÜ ¦   œçç ¦   œèj ¦   œè– ¦   ˜© ¦   ˜á ¦   ñ• ¦   ñÉ ¦   ž ¦   ž> ¦   ž'# ¦   ž( ¦   ž0P ¦   ž0ÿ ¦   Ÿ÷ ¦   Ÿ n ¦   Ÿd« ¦   Ÿdð ¦   ŸÇ3 ¦   ŸÇ} ¦    ñ% ¦    ñÉ ¦    ü1 ¦    üE ¦   ¡2 ¦   ¡€ ¦   ¡>k ¦   ¡>“ ¦   ¡a ¦   ¡a- ¦   ¡f: ¦   ¡fP ¦   ¢’Ç ¦   ¢“” ¦   £ ¦   £* ¦   £¸£ ¦   £¸² ¦   ¤?» ¦   ¤@V ¦   ¤Uä ¦   ¤Vj ¦


----------



## noiseboyuk (May 2, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 01 said:


> Until the people whose job it is to test it do so, I would be over-stepping my very limited position, which is to try to communicate to them in a dispassionate what you guys are saying and then to try to communicate to you folks in a dispassionate what their response is.
> 
> And the last few days, I think am really earning my money



With the greatest of respect, Jay, but that description of your job - and its successful implementation - sounds very strange to me. Other developers here do not communcate dispassionately - indeed their enthusiasm and graciousness has won them many friends. The often cold, begrudging tone of EW communications in response to customer problems is in contrast to this and is - in my view - at the heart of the problem. Knowing this is your job description doesn't inspire confidence, I'm afraid.

Several people have commented that all that was needed after the first out of tune example was, perhaps, this:

"Wow, I'll get this checked out right away cos that really doesn't sound good, does it? I'll keep you all posted".

Or, if you're more conservative;

"Wow, that really doesn't sound good, does it? Would you mind posting the midi so we can be sure it's across all platforms? If so I'll get it checked out right away and keep you all posted".

THAT is the tone I need to hear from EW which has been absent up to now not endless repostings, casting aspersions on other libraries and live players. THAT would have been a job well done and EW's reputation enhanced a little. As it is, I've wound up feeling less likely to buy from them because (again, as others have mentioned) I see a familiar pattern of denial and blame which eventually gets followed by a fix. I'm very tired of hearing the default stock answer that goes along the lines of "we've won dozens of awards, great people use this library so if you're having any problems its more than likely your fault". That reply has been used for many years, despite the products being quietly transformed along the way from almost unusable (in my experience) to where we are today. I'm not saying this historical response is your fault Jay, just pointing out why perhaps a lot of the customer base is wary of certain types of responses from the company, and why the current need is for a different approach.

Of course it's entirely up to you if, in the light of this, you consider this thread represents a job well done.


----------



## stevenson-again (May 2, 2011)

At the risk of opening the scab, I have to say that noiseboy nailed the issue.

I alerted EW to the viola tuning issue in november last year and it was acknowledged by doug in a long thread i started at the time.

i had a number of issues, and i spent about 6 weeks in total trying to resolve them. some were resolved by me, some are still unresolved. none of the issues were resolved by EW technical support.

here are the main points i alerted them to and how they were resolved:

(N.B. this all related to HS GOLD!!)

*1. Intonation problems*. 

i sent them a movie and described the problem:

http://idisk.mac.com/rohan.stevenson/Public/stuff/FlatViolasHS-G.mov (Flat Violas)

*2. Missing notes from Round Robins.*

this turned out to be serious midi timing issues when using high buffer levels. 1024 and above were unusable. i was trying to use high buffer levels in order to exploit my system RAM thinking that i may have been experiencing streaming problems. i was still getting those streaming problems with a dedicated SSD on its own dedicated PCIe SATA II bus.

i still had notes cutting out even when the library was on an SSD, and after about 3 hours of reasonable use. rebooting the whole system was the solution at the time.

*3. Incorrect Pitch being Played Back*

you talk about pitch problems....i was having completely incorrect notes playing back altogether. this maybe a point to investigate regarding an individual system. it was again related to the buffer. lowering the buffer rectified this.

*4. Browser takes you back to the last place you were, not the location of the currently loaded instrument.*

*5. Poor playback performance, despite samples playing from internal RAID drive.*

unchanged by changing to an SSD system. ultimately, i managed to get some stability from creating 5 individual instances of standalone play, one for each section connected via either IAC or a bidule from plogue. initially,2 or 3 of the instances would crash, but once they were back up and running i got about 3 hours of use from them before they would either crash, or the notes would start to cut out. i would have to restart the whole system and reload everything again.

*6. PLAY VST crashes Plogue*

resolved by john graham.


*7. Hanging Notes, incorrect notes, in-operative legato, stutters and drop outs playing back with Plogue*

this appears to have been related to the AU plug-in version and PLAY memory server and the buffer setting. it was not possible to reliably open more than 3 instances of PLAY within plogue or VEpro. i tried every permutation imaginable, i bought system monitoring software and tried everything i could think of. things were not much better in logic and in any case, running everything from logic was a bit of a non-starter for a variety of reasons. obviously the instances would open but once you started loading articulations in the problems began - despite PLAY memory server and using the lightest possible patches.

Some additional issues i discovered once i managed to get PLAY running for long enough to work it:

- CC22 does not work. i could not get the patches to switch from legato to poly despite re-reading the unfortunately short instructions in the manual about 50 times! i also posted twice on the soundsonline forum, and reported it to technical support, and i think i might have brought it up here too. unresolved.

- i found i could not get notes to NOT be legato simply by not having them overlap. if the note-offs were to close to the next note on, the legato would be triggered, and if it was too far away i would get a gap. i want to be able to control the difference between a clean attack and a legato transition in order to make phrasing 'breathe'. LASS does this very well. i also reported this, and is currently unresolved to my knowledge.

- i did enjoy being able ride or play with vibrato and agree with TJ that it is an extra degree of control that is most welcome - although for the most part string players will naturally vibrato more with increasing intensity and this is reflected perfectly satisfactorily in LASS. having the capability is not really a deal-maker. what i found frustrating was the inconsistency of whether cc1 or cc11 was used for loudness or expression. it meant that 1) swapping a patch with the same programming was awkward and 2) not being able to change the assignments in PLAY was irritating. i use cc1 for intensity (instrumental) and cc11 for expression/vibrato. i can swap it over in 'thetrumpet' so my programming is consistent throughout the orchestra.

-------

in the end, after persevering with HS for a good long time, i concluded that unless it was running on a dedicated PC in 64bit, i would not be able to work with it with my workflow. i felt that even then (on a slave) there were still major issues quite aside from the viola intonation issue that would require a lot of time to run down and be addressed. i even found that very often i much preferred the effect i was getting from LASS, and it was vastly easier to get it there. so it seemed like a huge amount of effort for very little and arguably almost no gain.

i still own it and it still sits on my SSD (keeping LASS company now) and were the above issues addressed in conjunction with my finally taking the step to working with a slave i would eagerly get back in to it. i think a key thing would be to get PLAY to the stage whereby i could get in and fix tuning issues in individual samples, reassign controllers, and use program changes to switch articulations. so each to their own. i can't wait to enjoy wonderful cues from those of you who have less particular workflows.


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## Stephen Baysted (May 2, 2011)

@Rohan, I resolved my HS issues by buying another library - drastic I know, but then needs must. 

Cheers

Stephen


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## jlb (May 2, 2011)

Rousseau @ Mon May 02 said:


> @Rohan, I resolved my HS issues by buying another library - drastic I know, but then needs must.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Stephen



Which other library Stephen? I have heard most of them, and I haven't heard anything with a sound as good as HS. It is such a shame all the nightmare stories about actually using it.

jlb


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## re-peat (May 2, 2011)

Rousseau @ Sun May 01 said:


> (...) Couple of things worth bearing in mind generally: (obviously) strings are not equally tempered and as such there will be intonational variances in real string playing. One of the good things about HS is that much of this 'good' variance is preserved intact and that makes the library sound much more natural than it would if every sample had been aligned with the artificial strait jacket that is equal temperament. (...)


I agree with everything you're saying, Stephen, and I'm aware of the many 'intonational' difficulties involved when creating a library of sampled strings, nor do I have a problem with the occasional tuning inaccuracies which might result from that, but, if you please, listen to this:

audio: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas_ex8.mp3 (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... as_ex8.mp3)
midi: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas_ex8.mid (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... as_ex8.mid)

This example is showing a patch which I hadn't used before, the *Violas Marc Legato BC LT 6 Ni* (loaded as is, i.o.w. with no edits or modifications from me), against a neutral (tuning-wise, I mean) background of digital piano and mf staccato strings (from another library). It's a simple melodic phrase based on the notes of the underlying chords, first in G, then in B and finally, in C. (I did these three transpositions to show that the out-of-tune-ness actually affects the entire patch and not just a few isolated samples.)

Surely, everyone with a decent (and honest) pair of ears has to agree that these violas are just way too far off the mark? No?

_


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## OB.one (May 2, 2011)

"Surely, everyone with a decent (and honest) pair of ears has to agree that these violas are just way too far off the mark? No? "

OUI !

Cheers

Olivier


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## OB.one (May 2, 2011)

and i remember Nick saying in the video demo of HS : "Let's skip the violas" ...

Olivier


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## Gerd Kaeding (May 2, 2011)

re-peat @ Mon May 02 said:


> I agree with everything you're saying, Stephen, and I'm aware of the many 'intonational' difficulties involved when creating a library of sampled strings, nor do I have a problem with the occasional tuning inaccuracies which might result from that, but, if you please, listen to this:
> 
> audio: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas_ex8.mp3 (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... as_ex8.mp3)
> midi: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas_ex8.mid (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... as_ex8.mid)
> ...



Hi Piet ,

this particular patch you've used here (*Violas Marc Legato BC LT 6 Ni* ) is rather a tool for playing _much_ slower legato phrases and _should_ be used with sustain pedal "*on*"(!) . Then this patch is in tune . At least here on my Mac system . I've checked it with all Mics .

If you use this patch for phrases like that one in your example ( _and maybe without sustain pedal _) the detuning occurs because the script that is triggerring the BC can not keep up ( ... this is my very own interpretation why this patch sounds so terrible in your example , and I'm of course not sure if this is the true reason ... ) .

From my own experience I can say that Viola BowChange patches work best ( and in tune ) when they are used for (very) slow legato phrases with sustain pedal "on" .

- - - 

I don't write this because I want to defend EastWest , but because I wanted to let you know how I use this and other BowChange Patches to get the most of it . 
( _Although I have to add that I don't use the Viola MARC LEG patches , because I simply don't like them ._ )

But , no doubt , there are Viola Patches in this libray which are out of tune.

- - -

Best

Gerd


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## EastWest Lurker (May 2, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Sun May 01 said:


> )



With the greatest of respect, Jay, but that description of your job - and its successful implementation - sounds very strange to me. Other developers here do not communcate dispassionately - indeed their enthusiasm and graciousness has won them many friends. The often cold, begrudging tone of EW communications in response to customer problems is in contrast to this and is - in my view - at the heart of the problem. Knowing this is your job description doesn't inspire confidence, I'm afraid.

Several people have commented that all that was needed after the first out of tune example was, perhaps, this:

"Wow, I'll get this checked out right away cos that really doesn't sound good, does it? I'll keep you all posted".

Or, if you're more conservative;

"Wow, that really doesn't sound good, does it? Would you mind posting the midi so we can be sure it's across all platforms? If so I'll get it checked out right away and keep you all posted".

THAT is the tone I need to hear from EW which has been absent up to now not endless repostings, casting aspersions on other libraries and live players. THAT would have been a job well done and EW's reputation enhanced a little. As it is, I've wound up feeling less likely to buy from them because (again, as others have mentioned) I see a familiar pattern of denial and blame which eventually gets followed by a fix. I'm very tired of hearing the default stock answer that goes along the lines of "we've won dozens of awards, great people use this library so if you're having any problems its more than likely your fault". That reply has been used for many years, despite the products being quietly transformed along the way from almost unusable (in my experience) to where we are today. I'm not saying this historical response is your fault Jay, just pointing out why perhaps a lot of the customer base is wary of certain types of responses from the company, and why the current need is for a different approach.

Of course it's entirely up to you if, in the light of this, you consider this thread represents a job well done.[/quote]


First of all, I am not a developer. And please understand that by remaining "dispassionate" I do not mean that I do not care, because I do.

First of all, although I have to deal with the bad feelings that EW may have created here, I had no part in it.My association until 3 months ago entirely consisted of owning some libraries and defending them when I thought they were being unfairly attacked. Others also have done so.

Typically, Nick or Doug would come on tis forum in a friendly manner and while legitimate complaints were written to them, the manner was frequently snide and hostile. Because it is Doug/s company and because Nick was a developer of many of the libraries, they obviously were sensitive to this and because they are both passionate about what they do, they would goaded into blowing their stacks.

In general, I did and do not. They saw that and hired me to do that for them.

I said, "Fine but understand I am never going to write something I do not believe to be true."

Doug said, "Of course not, we don't want you to. "

I was not trained or schooled for this kind of position. Each of you here and on other forums as well, because this is no the only one that matters, has the right to examine the way I am doing the gig and decide if I am doing it well or not. I have since been asked to do this for another developer who likes what I am doing but I cannot afford the Xanax I would need :lol: 

I am certainly open however to suggestions as to how I can do the job better. But understand I cannot undo the past interactions between you guys and EW and I will not spend any time apologizing for them. Also I cannot change the way they react to criticism or turn them into different people but can only give them my honest point of view on the merits of issues raised and how I think they should respond. But at the end of the day, it is not like when I speak the whole company "Well Jay Asher says so we must....."

And I have seen a number of developers here who reacted to criticisms, even when stated politely, in a decidedly non-gracious way.

Anyway as I wrote in my very first post about this gig:

"I will be here unto try and help you resolve issues with EW products that you are not getting satisfactory answers to and give you information that East West thinks you should know. 

I will not respond to non-specific issues, rants against the company in ad hominem attacks, but will focus on helping you achieve resolution for specific issues. 

Sometimes this will help, other times it will not. As with all successful companies, some users have unresolved issues, and my role is to give those customers my best effort, within reason, to try and resolve these as soon as possible. "

That is the scope of what I am hired to do and am willing to do as a part time job I have accepted.


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## re-peat (May 2, 2011)

Gerd Kaeding @ Mon May 02 said:


> Hi Piet ,
> this particular patch you've used here (*Violas Marc Legato BC LT 6 Ni* ) is rather a tool for playing _much_ slower legato phrases and _should_ be used with sustain pedal "*on*"(!). Then this patch is in tune .


Gerd,

Thanks a lot, but I'm afraid our idea of what is or isn't _in tune_ seems to differ somewhat. Here's the same piece at a much slower tempo and WITH the sustain on, like you say it's supposed to be:

- audio: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas_ex8b.mp3 (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... s_ex8b.mp3)
- midi: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/HS_Violas_ex8b.mid (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... s_ex8b.mid)

The reason I did a much faster version previously (nearly twice as fast), was only because I feared nobody would have the stomach to endure the entire demo at a slower tempo, like it is now. So, if you can sit this new version out without reaching for the cotton wool or the paracetamol, my congratulations to you.

_


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## OB.one (May 2, 2011)

it's perfectly played slow legato now ... and unfortunately perfectly out of tune.

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## Gerd Kaeding (May 2, 2011)

re-peat @ Mon May 02 said:


> Gerd Kaeding @ Mon May 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Piet ,
> ...



Piet , 
I've just downloaded your MIDIfile and played it inside Logic ( I didn't do that before ) , and you are absolutely right .

If you ever should write for a Horror Movie this track / Patch should be part of your score .

- - - 

When I wrote my other post I had played around in PLAY standalone and played along very slow lines , which worked well for me .


One thing I've noticed with this patch :
Depending on what level cc1 is , the detuning gets worse or better . Also : if you play the (MIDI)notes connected / overlapping , the detuning gets even worse . 




Best

Gerd


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## noiseboyuk (May 2, 2011)

Thanks Jay, that's useful background. As to suggestions - I think my previous post said where I'm coming from at least.


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## Joe S (May 2, 2011)

I don't really understand all these extreme emotions and opinions. HS has way too many patches and clearly some of them are f*****d up. I imagine EW will fix them, as they have already released many many updates. The library itself is in tune. There are just some bad patches/scripts. Was all this info reported to their tech support and then ignored?? If so, then that's a problem.


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## doubleattack (May 2, 2011)

Listening to all examples by re-peat I have to say, the title of this thread gets finally a kind of involuntary humor.

btw: It should be possible to make such quenching examples of LASS too; the different of course is the basic divisi - concept, thats why I feel some tuning issues in LASS are part of the whole concept for achieving more lively and natural results. And always you have some alternative choices - speaking about the full LASS version. So these examples of HS are quite discouraging regarding to entertain a purchase. Even if the violas aren't playing in this open manner all the time...

It has been interesting for me too to recognized that jokes about viola-players seems to be global.

Nevertheless I don't gloating, rather it makes me to sadden.

Frank


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## noiseboyuk (May 2, 2011)

Joe S @ Mon May 02 said:


> Was all this info reported to their tech support and then ignored?? If so, then that's a problem.



Read Stevenson-again's post on p6.


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## Mike Connelly (May 2, 2011)

I'm still wondering if the bartok pizz timing is still so erratic or if the canned runs cutting off has been fixed. Anyone up for checking those out?


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## EastWest Lurker (May 2, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Mon May 02 said:


> Thanks Jay, that's useful background. As to suggestions - I think my previous post said where I'm coming from at least.



Guy, I have great respect for you. Even when you disagree, you are always a gentleman.


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## OB.one (May 3, 2011)

Bravo Thomas ! :wink: 

Best Regards

Olivier


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## noiseboyuk (May 3, 2011)

+1 - great feedback Thomas, thank you.


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## re-peat (May 3, 2011)

Great news.
Thanks!


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## EastWest Lurker (May 3, 2011)

re-peat @ Tue May 03 said:


> Great news.
> Thanks!



And Piet, here is my promised "attaboy" for uncovering this. Good work and thank you for providing the MIDI files..


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## stevenson-again (May 3, 2011)

> And Piet, here is my promised "attaboy" for uncovering this.



well done indeed, although i did report this in november last year, if i may be so bold.



> OK, Nick and I sat down and took a deeper look at the midi and the patch that was posted and we agree that the tuning is unreasonable in quite a few notes of the bow change legato patch in question. The library has over 3000 patches, and I haven't used the violas bow change patch very much myself, which is why I never ran into the problem.



or possibly never ran into the context. the problem is occurring in HS gold as well which i believe does not have bow change legato.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 3, 2011)

stevenson-again @ Tue May 03 said:


> > And Piet, here is my promised "attaboy" for uncovering this.
> 
> 
> 
> well done indeed, although i did report this in november last year, if i may be so bold.



Well Rohan, we now have I think found a methodology which will work better to get these resolved, which is to send me the MIDI files so I can hear the problem, pass it on to them, and let them diagnose it and fix it when they can.

In your case, please also send the Logic files so I can steal all your programming tricks :twisted:


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## Mike Connelly (May 3, 2011)

Thomas_J @ Tue May 03 said:


> The library has over 3000 patches...



Dare I say it, but maybe that's just too many, and it might make sense to strategically narrow that down? Eliminate ones that are redundant or combine ones that work together (for example instead of having slightly different alternate versions, create those variations with an adjustable knob)?


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## stevenson-again (May 3, 2011)

> Well Rohan, we now have I think found a methodology which will work better to get these resolved, which is to send me the MIDI files so I can hear the problem, pass it on to them, and let them diagnose it and fix it when they can.



no need - i sent them a clear description of the problem, cues where the intonation was exposed, and a movie of a tuner showing that the notes were pitching flat.

i also noted that some of the cello notes were flat as well.

all they have to do is sit down with a tuner and centre up some of the pitches. i noted last november that it sounded like the violas had been tuned or played as if pitching thirds - ie playing flat. this produces a yummy chord in certain circumstances and completely out of tune-ness in others.

all they (or anyone else) had to do is check the pitches against a tuner.

you really don't need a midi file, you just need to play back the viola notes, and if you don't trust or believe your ears then a tuner would do just as well.

if you have ever looked at the exs instruments of the vienna stuff you'll notice that very many of the pitches of most of the instruments have been tuned a few cents here and there. perfectly bang on tuning in the context of an orchestral library is not desirable i know - we all agree on that. but the pitches do at least need to be usably centred. 

actually my two beefs about sampled orchestral music are that they are 1) not in as in tune as a real band and 2) not as in time. real players (really good players) are constantly adjusting the intonation so that they are harmonically correct with the chord they are in. i remember spending a lot of time rehearsing this at uni. while it is possible for a program such as logic to emulate this (hermode tuning), in practise it does not do a very good job, and it does not work at all over midi (ie sending to plogue).



> In your case, please also send the Logic files so I can steal all your programming tricks



LOL - and should you find any would you let me know as well?


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## NYC Composer (May 3, 2011)

Thomas_J @ Tue May 03 said:


> OK, Nick and I sat down and took a deeper look at the midi and the patch that was posted and we agree that the tuning is unreasonable in quite a few notes of the bow change legato patch in question. The library has over 3000 patches, and I haven't used the violas bow change patch very much myself, which is why I never ran into the problem. Part of what is happening is that the midi is mostly hitting the upper layer of the patch which is the molto vibrato layer, an articulation for which I instructed the players to perform "with liveliness and exaggeration" to achieve a more spontaneous and contextually applicable feel (it also helps remove some of the synthy quality that you get from string players that are too in tune with each other). It is my opinion that this gives a much more natural result in a tutti passage, but we admit that in the case of the violas it is too off for comfort in certain areas. We are sorry for the inconvenience, acknowledge the issue and are going to provide extensive tuning adjustments in the next update that will take care of the problem.



Bravo. I sincerely hope this ushers in a new era for EW. I think I am one of many who would welcome a comprehensive change in outlook with open arms.


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## NYC Composer (May 3, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 02 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Mon May 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Jay, that's useful background. As to suggestions - I think my previous post said where I'm coming from at least.
> ...



+1


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## midphase (May 3, 2011)

Thomas_J @ Tue May 03 said:


> OK, Nick and I sat down and took a deeper look at the midi and the patch that was posted and we agree that the tuning is unreasonable in quite a few notes of the bow change legato patch in question. The library has over 3000 patches, and I haven't used the violas bow change patch very much myself, which is why I never ran into the problem. Part of what is happening is that the midi is mostly hitting the upper layer of the patch which is the molto vibrato layer, an articulation for which I instructed the players to perform "with liveliness and exaggeration" to achieve a more spontaneous and contextually applicable feel (it also helps remove some of the synthy quality that you get from string players that are too in tune with each other). It is my opinion that this gives a much more natural result in a tutti passage, but we admit that in the case of the violas it is too off for comfort in certain areas. We are sorry for the inconvenience, acknowledge the issue and are going to provide extensive tuning adjustments in the next update that will take care of the problem.



I think someone should copy and paste this post on the first page, delete the 6 pages following it, and then lock the thread. 0oD o[])


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## Peter Alexander (May 3, 2011)

midphase @ Tue May 03 said:


> Thomas_J @ Tue May 03 said:
> 
> 
> > OK, Nick and I sat down and took a deeper look at the midi and the patch that was posted and we agree that the tuning is unreasonable in quite a few notes of the bow change legato patch in question. The library has over 3000 patches, and I haven't used the violas bow change patch very much myself, which is why I never ran into the problem. Part of what is happening is that the midi is mostly hitting the upper layer of the patch which is the molto vibrato layer, an articulation for which I instructed the players to perform "with liveliness and exaggeration" to achieve a more spontaneous and contextually applicable feel (it also helps remove some of the synthy quality that you get from string players that are too in tune with each other). It is my opinion that this gives a much more natural result in a tutti passage, but we admit that in the case of the violas it is too off for comfort in certain areas. We are sorry for the inconvenience, acknowledge the issue and are going to provide extensive tuning adjustments in the next update that will take care of the problem.
> ...



+1


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## re-peat (May 3, 2011)

midphase @ Tue May 03 said:


> Thomas_J @ Tue May 03 said:
> 
> 
> > OK, Nick and I sat down and took a deeper look at the midi and the patch that was posted and we agree that the tuning is unreasonable in quite a few notes of the bow change legato patch in question. The library has over 3000 patches, and I haven't used the violas bow change patch very much myself, which is why I never ran into the problem. Part of what is happening is that the midi is mostly hitting the upper layer of the patch which is the molto vibrato layer, an articulation for which I instructed the players to perform "with liveliness and exaggeration" to achieve a more spontaneous and contextually applicable feel (it also helps remove some of the synthy quality that you get from string players that are too in tune with each other). It is my opinion that this gives a much more natural result in a tutti passage, but we admit that in the case of the violas it is too off for comfort in certain areas. We are sorry for the inconvenience, acknowledge the issue and are going to provide extensive tuning adjustments in the next update that will take care of the problem.
> ...



Without those five previous pages, this post would never have been written. And if, one of these months, HollywoodStrings becomes just a little better than it already is, it's partly thanks to those five pages.

_


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## EastWest Lurker (May 3, 2011)

stevenson-again @ Tue May 03 said:


> > Well Rohan, we now have I think found a methodology which will work better to get these resolved, which is to send me the MIDI files so I can hear the problem, pass it on to them, and let them diagnose it and fix it when they can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



IMHO Rohan there IS a need. They do not have time to go through 3000 patches and try to figure out what needs to be tweaked in every one. A MIDI file allows them quickly to identify the issue and deal with it.


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## stevenson-again (May 3, 2011)

it's not the patches that are a problem jay - its the raw samples. i identified the exact pitches and the patch involved. all of the viola patches i have tried have been out of tune in the same way. i have not tried them all but i presumed since so many were out in the same way. the samples common to all of them were out.

it's not a big deal - but they should have checked. it's an easy thing to do.


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## synergy543 (May 3, 2011)

o-[][]-o 

Kudos TJ and Nick! And Piet, thank you for your patience and persistence despite the onslaught of dispassionate obstacles and naysayers.

But where's Doug? Tell him when these are fixed, and I can also do some editing in PLAY Pro, I may put HS back on my shopping list.

And I want a ride in his car up the hill (btw, did they fix that?).


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## noiseboyuk (May 3, 2011)

synergy543 @ Tue May 03 said:


> But where's Doug? Tell him when these are fixed, and I can also do some editing in PLAY Pro, I may put HS back on my shopping list.



Well, I think Play Pro is still a long way off, but Play 3 is apparently going to public Beta in the next fortnight.

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2

Hope this really helps folks who are struggling, very curious to see how this turns out.


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## noiseboyuk (May 3, 2011)

Just a heads up - for those like me who spend their time fretting about HS and performance, I've just noticed the TeraPack is now on sale at 59 Euros +VAT. It's a 1TB WB Caviar Black, which I see in the UK retails for £65 from ebuyer, so it's barely more than a regular drive. Thinking it might make sense to get it now in the sale, wait for Play 3 and the next HS update, and then see how it goes on a trial (presuming you can update the instruments before you trial them?). You can also then get the licenses VAT-free when bought from soundsonline, so I understand. I see they've updated the TeraPack generally and also squeezed The Dark Side samples on there too (but not MOR2).


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## Mike Connelly (May 4, 2011)

Sounds like a smart strategy, especially for mac users - do the 10 day demo once PLAY 3 and the next library update is out. I think the libraries on the demo drives are the same as the release versions, only difference is the iLok license, so they should update the same way.

When that update is released, I hope that users will follow up on this thread and report back which issues have been fixed.


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