# Avid Eliminating Protools perpetual licenses (Subcription only)



## gsilbers (Apr 26, 2022)

Pro tools is now sub only.

Time to jump ship

Confusing the names and tiers for like the 4th time in a few years.


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## AndrewS (Apr 26, 2022)

Is there a press release stating this? It looks like they're pushing you hard towards the subscriptions on their site, but you can still buy the perpetual licenses at Guitar Center (for now at least).

Ah found it:



> HOW TO BUY A NEW PRO TOOLS LICENSE​As you may have already noticed, Pro Tools Artist, Pro Tools Studio, and Pro Tools Flex will only be sold as annual or monthly subscriptions to new customers, but as explained above, existing perpetual customers are not affected by this change. Note that any perpetual licenses sold by Avid resellers automatically convert to the new equivalent offering. This means that Avid resellers will be able to sell their existing stock of perpetual licenses and customers will be able to redeem and convert these licenses to the new, equivalent product offerings.



https://www.avid.com/resource-center/meet-the-new-pro-tools-lineup
So I guess if you want a perpetual license now's the time to buy one before they're gone. Then you'll just have to stay subscribed to their update plans if you want to update.


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## gsilbers (Apr 26, 2022)

AndrewS said:


> Is there a press release stating this? It looks like they're pushing you hard towards the subscriptions on their site, but you can still buy the perpetual licenses at Guitar Center (for now at least).



Avids marketing might end up having ptsd from so many changes.

They clearly want to make sure no one notices u cannot buy pro tools any longer.



https://avid.secure.force.com/pkb/articles/faq/Pro-Tools-Tiers




What’s at guitar center /sweetwater is all from the previous version and what’s in stock. Once that stock runs out there is no more perpetual.

The $2500 question is if I buy perpetual from that stock and finish paying it 2 years , will avid do the same crap they are doing now and say sorry, no more upgrades of any kind u have to do subscription from now on.


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## FireGS (Apr 26, 2022)

This is just hilarious looking.


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## AndrewS (Apr 26, 2022)

FireGS said:


> This is just hilarious looking.


At least it's still cheaper to get back on the support plan than it is to subscribe for a year (for Ultimate at least). This is a very Waves-esque move from AVID.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 26, 2022)

No clarity on what happens if we have already bought a reinstatement code for the perpetual plan but have not used it yet. AVID has stated those never expire, but I never trust AVID.


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## rgames (Apr 26, 2022)

Well that’s a bummer but I always feel compelled to note that the music biz is the last holdout where professional software is *not* mostly subscription. The photo biz was the second-to-last.

In most professions, profession-specific software has been subscription for decades.


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## dunamisstudio (Apr 26, 2022)

I dropped Pro Tools before version 9 ended.


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## Chris Schmidt (Apr 26, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> Pro tools is now sub only.


We were just discussing in another thread about the evils of subscription-only software the other day.

The Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse.


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## timprebble (Apr 26, 2022)

*Avid Eliminating Protools perpetual licenses... for new users.*

My Perpetual license for Ultimate Native is still perfectly ok & suits my needs.
Will hang on to it as long as I can...


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## gsilbers (Apr 27, 2022)

timprebble said:


> *Avid Eliminating Protools perpetual licenses... for new users.*
> 
> My Perpetual license for Ultimate Native is still perfectly ok & suits my needs.
> Will hang on to it as long as I can...



Correct. The issue here is Avid not having a good track record liking perpetual license and maybe next year or two we wont get upgrades of any kind... unless.. well, you subscribe for their updates for perpetual owners... or some BS like that. 
Or worse.. do the thing where a big upgrade perpetual license won't be included of any kind and move to legacy and everyone having to sub like Adobe.


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## gsilbers (Apr 27, 2022)

FireGS said:


> This is just hilarious looking.


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## AudioLoco (Apr 27, 2022)

A company with nothing to offer except past glory and a monopoly status in certain areas of the industry.


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## gsilbers (Apr 27, 2022)




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## gamma-ut (Apr 27, 2022)

AndrewS said:


> At least it's still cheaper to get back on the support plan than it is to subscribe for a year (for Ultimate at least). This is a very Waves-esque move from AVID.


For the moment. If they are genuinely trying to can perpetuals, there is no reason for them to continue doing that. 

And it would be a classic Avid move for them to run a reinstatement sale (as they indeed did a month or two back) only to jack up the cost of support plans to match annual subs a year or two later.


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## musicsoftwaredeals (Apr 27, 2022)

Its the final stage of evolution for the "optional subscription plan" model that every company is beginning to offer. Wonder who else will eventually go down this route...*cough Native Instruments cough*


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## MauroPantin (Apr 27, 2022)

They did this with Sibelius, too. I was out of support with my perpetual license, so my options were to buy a new perpetual license at full price to update the software... or a subscription. So I crossgraded to Dorico.

I still have Sibelius installed, but I exported/remade all of my templates and migrated my entire workflow. One day, I'll open Sib up and it will not work anymore, and that will be it. 



rgames said:


> In most professions, profession-specific software has been subscription for decades.


Was unaware of this. Thought subscription services were a thing of the modern internet. How did this work before software could be delivered through the internet with decent download speeds? Like old Netflix with the DVDs and stuff? Not yanking your chain here, actually asking because I never heard of this being an old practice.


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## gamma-ut (Apr 27, 2022)

rgames said:


> In most professions, profession-specific software has been subscription for decades.


That's not entirely true. They were largely perpetuals attached to (optional) annual maintenance. But the financial markets got wise to CEOs goosing the numbers to make their options deadlines, and then watching the revenues the year after drop off a cliff (and, yes, Avid was one of them). So they started migrating to subs on the basis that there would be little tangible difference to the customer and that it would provide "better revenue visibility" to the markets.

In technical sectors, perpetuals are generally still available but as large clients tend to negotiate all-you-eat-deals, subs are more the norm and the salespeople look at you funny if you insist on a perpetual – but for long service-life industries like industrial and defence, they will sell them.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 27, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> No clarity on what happens if we have already bought a reinstatement code for the perpetual plan but have not used it yet. AVID has stated those never expire, but I never trust AVID.


I bought a bunch when they were $99, added them to my account and I think I have until June 2024 to make a decision. Since I have mostly moved to Cubase, I may just quit updating.


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## AndrewS (Apr 27, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> but for long service-life industries like industrial and defence, they will sell them.


Especially in industries like manufacturing, where software licenses for things that run conveyor belts and stuff would also come with on site support for not just the software, but also the machines it runs on (since they’re usually intrinsically tied). Not something you’d necessarily get in a purely download space like with sample libraries or other post production software.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 27, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> I bought a bunch when they were $99, added them to my account and I think I have until June 2024 to make a decision. Since I have mostly moved to Cubase, I may just quit updating.


They confirmed on DUC that unused perpetual activation codes won’t expire. I’m holding onto mine still. As it is, I never use Pro Tools these days.


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## gsilbers (Apr 27, 2022)

That CEO of AVID is clearly looking at that adobe stock and trying to please investors who really like that sub thing, but know nothing about the market. 

Entice sub but leave perpetual. Have loops, educational videos, artists spotlights, communities, YouTubers, extra plugins, that come included w the sub. 

But nope. The CEO goes to burbank and ust sees all studios there using pro tools therefore PT is great and now it should be sub like adobe and that will increase the stock. While not seeing that adobe cloud has a lot more to offer. 

just waiting for a big movie to be done entirely with Nuendo and thats it. Just like DP when hans zimmer started showing big scores in cubase, PT will slowly fade out since poeple will naturally find it more useful and know it can do as much and better than PT.


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## rgames (Apr 27, 2022)

MauroPantin said:


> Thought subscription services were a thing of the modern internet. How did this work before software could be delivered through the internet with decent download speeds? Like old Netflix with the DVDs and stuff?


No - engineering, finance, medicine (especially billing), etc. all had annual-fee-based licenses pretty much from the get-go. You got your CD or, even earlier, floppy disks with the software that worked for a year every time you paid. That goes back to the 80s when profession-specific software really started to hit the mainstream.

Consumer products (e.g. Windows, Photoshop, music software) were perpetual at the start but began shifting to subscriptions over the past decade or so.

Take SpaceX and Blue Origin as examples: their engineering analysis software (LS-DYNA, Ansys, STK) has always been subscription. And those licenses can easily cost more than $100k/year.

That's because nobody is running STK in his free time - it's a true "professional" software package that requires professionals to run it. Music and photo software, OTOH, don't require professionals to run them, so there was always a huge consumer market which basically drove software development in those markets. Sure, there were photo/music professionals who used that software but the user base was mostly non-professionals. There was no software specific to photo/music professionals.

rgames


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## fakemaxwell (Apr 27, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> just waiting for a big movie to be done entirely with Nuendo and thats it. Just like DP when hans zimmer started showing big scores in cubase, PT will slowly fade out since poeple will naturally find it more useful and know it can do as much and better than PT.


🙏🙏🙏 Hope this happens soon. I've been mixing broadcast stuff in Reaper and nobody has noticed because the end result is the same. The big post houses aren't too affected by this marketing nonsense, so you're probably right that it'll take a bigger name to come out and say "I don't use Pro Tools."

It happened in the music world, fingers crossed we can move to a more DAW agnostic approach for post soon.


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## MauroPantin (Apr 27, 2022)

One thing that has always annoyed me is the lack of DAW interoperability. If you want to transfer your session to someone else you need the same DAW. It is the basis of the PT dominance paradigm. This seems nuts, having an entire industry at the behest of a single file format. I also get issues with this all the time, with older or not tech oriented composers who are not sure how to export the session info from Cubase, Pro Tools, or some other DAW when it's time for music prep... it's a PITA.

As a parallel, notation has MusicXML, which isn't perfect but it kinda-sorta works for 85% of the stuff in a score. If you're clever and use formatting templates and a few macros, you can transfer a score from MuseScore to Finale, then to Sibelius and then to Dorico with minimal effort. Vector graphics has SVG. 3D artists have FBX. There's a lot of examples of this. I don't get why there's not at least basic support for a DAW-agnostic file format. A simple XML or JSON with tracks, plugins, file names, timing positions, tempo and time signature would handle 80% of the stuff that we use Pro Tools if our industry for, anyway. Or maybe include a MIDI Type 1 export and the audio files along with a JSON describing the session in a convenient zip file. Just riffing here, I'm sure it's a bit more complex but surely not impossible.

@rgames Ahhh... I see. So it was all B2B, no customer-facing stuff.


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## gsilbers (Apr 27, 2022)

MauroPantin said:


> One thing that has always annoyed me is the lack of DAW interoperability. If you want to transfer your session to someone else you need the same DAW. It is the basis of the PT dominance paradigm. This seems nuts, having an entire industry at the behest of a single file format. I also get issues with this all the time, with older or not tech oriented composers who are not sure how to export the session info from Cubase, Pro Tools, or some other DAW when it's time for music prep... it's a PITA.
> 
> As a parallel, notation has MusicXML, which isn't perfect but it kinda-sorta works for 85% of the stuff in a score. If you're clever and use formatting templates and a few macros, you can transfer a score from MuseScore to Finale, then to Sibelius and then to Dorico with minimal effort. Vector graphics has SVG. 3D artists have FBX. There's a lot of examples of this. I don't get why there's not at least basic support for a DAW-agnostic file format. A simple XML or JSON with tracks, plugins, file names, timing positions, tempo and time signature would handle 80% of the stuff that we use Pro Tools if our industry for, anyway. Or maybe include a MIDI Type 1 export and the audio files along with a JSON describing the session in a convenient zip file. Just riffing here, I'm sure it's a bit more complex but surely not impossible.
> 
> @rgames Ahhh... I see. So it was all B2B, no customer-facing stuff.



Well, there is AAF and OMF... 

but i think that proves more your point lol


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## robgb (Apr 27, 2022)

Reaper will welcome you with open arms for only $60, and you'll be amazed by how much more it can do than Pro Tools (should you desire it) and how it rarely, if ever, crashes. Reaper's resident tutorial guy, Kenny Gioia, switched from Pro Tools and never looked back.


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## AudioLoco (Apr 27, 2022)

The history of Digidesign and AVID is built upon forcing consumers to unnecessary expenses.
For years people were forced to use their mediocre interfaces and converters as an extremely expensive dongle, while there were already other universal hardware options, cheaper and better.
Now they will force people to give them a monthly guaranteed allowance. Because...they can...

I too hope, but don't necessarily think will be possible in the near future, that Nuendo will start becoming a standard in post and some bigger players will start to switch in the film world. (I honestly don't know how that would work on a technical level compatibility-wise with video editing software)

The rest of the demise will just come naturally - only 5 years ago you were often looked down upon if you said you weren't using PT in your studio as your main DAW, it never happens now and no one cares what you use as long as it sounds good.


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## tony10000 (Apr 27, 2022)

Pro Tools is now only available as a subscription service | Engadget


There are three plans, starting at $10 per month or $99 per year..




www.engadget.com


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## patrick76 (Apr 27, 2022)

This really sucks, but isn’t surprising.


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## timbit2006 (Apr 27, 2022)

I hope this is the wake up call that many pro tools fanatics needed so they can realize pro tools doesn't really care about the customers and moreso just cares about the money.


rgames said:


> No - engineering, finance, medicine (especially billing), etc. all had annual-fee-based licenses pretty much from the get-go. You got your CD or, even earlier, floppy disks with the software that worked for a year every time you paid. That goes back to the 80s when profession-specific software really started to hit the mainstream.
> 
> Consumer products (e.g. Windows, Photoshop, music software) were perpetual at the start but began shifting to subscriptions over the past decade or so.
> 
> ...


Those are all "Professional" professions in which there is absolutely no hobbyist market. Have you ever heard of a hobbyist doctor or a hobbyist financial planner? Pro Tools markets to hobbyists. They are not on the level of a professional doctors or engineers tool to warrant an asinine subscription fee. On top of that, most of those corporations paying for subscriptions are happy about it because they can use it as a tax write off; hobbyists have no such option.

That reminds me... I have to pay for my yearly Tradingview subscription tonight. It's less than it is for Pro Tools/year. I actually connect and use several GBs of data/day in market information streams from their servers which warrants a yearly connection fee. Its development and support team is also much larger than Avid's. On top of that, they're consumer friendly towards poor people as well. If you contact support and mention you can't afford to re-subscribe they'll happily give another year of subscription at 50% off. I don't think Avid ever did that.

I should also maybe bring up AutoCAD. I haven't happily used it since 2016. What happened in 2016? They went full subscription. This completely alienated me as a hobbyist, my last full perpetual copy was 2012, it started showing its age around 2020. I have since switched to ProgeCAD- A competitor that offers perpetual licenses.

Avid has no justification whatsoever for their Pro Tools bully-boy style anti-consumer tactics.


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## Flyo (Apr 27, 2022)

Always on bad moves for loyalty costumers Avid.


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## KEM (Apr 27, 2022)

Pro Tools sucks and Avid is a terrible company? Wow who would’ve guessed…


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## José Herring (Apr 27, 2022)

Excuse my protools ignorance. I've never used or liked protools and the times where I've had to deliver stems to a dubstage I've just given the stems to the music editor who them put them in protools in the right timecode locations....So....my question is, does one still need to buy the expensive PT hardware to go a long with this subscription crap?


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## SandChannel (Apr 27, 2022)

Pro Tools just doing their standard bottom feeding.


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## X-Bassist (Apr 27, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> I bought a bunch when they were $99, added them to my account and I think I have until June 2024 to make a decision. Since I have mostly moved to Cubase, I may just quit updating.


I also did this to Feb 2026, which they seem to be honoring. But now it’s Pro Tools Studio, which they claim to be adding surround to, which was the only reason i would buy ultimate. But ultimate may be moot for me now. Apparently the differences are number of voices (like I ever go beyond 500 audio tracks) and hardware outputs- I only need 10 which my interface does now. Here is a chart of the differences:






Pro Tools DAW Software Comparison - Avid


Pro Tools is the industry’s most used and loved audio production software. Find out which version is right for you in this DAW software comparison.




www.avid.com


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## X-Bassist (Apr 27, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Excuse my protools ignorance. I've never used or liked protools and the times where I've had to deliver stems to a dubstage I've just given the stems to the music editor who them //put them in protools in the right timecode locations....So....my question is, does one still need to buy the expensive PT hardware to go a long with this subscription crap?


No, that left many years ago. Any hardware works with native protocols, and as long as you don’t need a lot of hardware outputs, software and a good box (like my fireface uc) is all you need. For me protocols has editing options that are way beyond Cubase or any other DAW I’ve worked on. Plus I know all the shortcuts, which many DAW’s don’t have.

Even video editors I’ve worked on (Premire, FCPX, Avid) don’t have the amount of options PT has. Those guys at digidesign had the time to add so much, then sold it off. I still like the updates (folders, presets, customizations) but $1000/yr, or even $400/yr, is an expense I’ll have to think about.

If I was just doing music I would migrate to CB, but most of my work is sound design, foley, mixing for films. I tried an edit on CB last year but it wasn’t the same. Editing many tracks of detailed audio can take a lot of time when the tools aren’t right. There use to be crews for this, but not often any more.


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## timprebble (Apr 27, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> That CEO of AVID is clearly looking at that adobe stock and trying to please investors who really like that sub thing, but know nothing about the market.
> 
> Entice sub but leave perpetual. Have loops, educational videos, artists spotlights, communities, YouTubers, extra plugins, that come included w the sub.
> 
> ...



I would think the issue for Avid that has motivated the move to subscriptions is as a funnel for new users, who are used to subscriptions for everything else they use (via Splice etc).

I dont think it is the lack of an alternative that is stopping many users (individuals and dub stage) from switching away from ProTools. Most sound designers I know already use multiple apps (eg use Reaper and ProTools) so we access the best of both worlds. Many film PT users have used
it for a very long time, so there is muscle memory and workflow that has evolved over many many years & projects (plugin support, conforms, group use across sound editor, foley, ADR, mix) And if they wanted perpetual they will already have it. I sincerely doubt just because some project eventually is marketed as 'completed in another app' is really going to change the tide. 

But a dub stage that is set up for ProTools will likely have 5-10 rigs (including dubbers) and the time, effort and investment to have a very very reliable stable setup, with wordclock locked IO across every machine, is massive. To replace that would equal a lot of research, and downtime. And is yet to be proven - I am sure there are smaller mix rooms running Nuendo, but are there any large scale dub stages running Nuendo or Reaper?


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## gsilbers (Apr 27, 2022)

timprebble said:


> I would think the issue for Avid that has motivated the move to subscriptions is as a funnel for new users, who are used to subscriptions for everything else they use (via Splice etc).
> 
> I dont think it is the lack of an alternative that is stopping many users (individuals and dub stage) from switching away from ProTools. Most sound designers I know already use multiple apps (eg use Reaper and ProTools) so we access the best of both worlds. Many film PT users have used
> it for a very long time, so there is muscle memory and workflow that has evolved over many many years & projects (plugin support, conforms, group use across sound editor, foley, ADR, mix) And if they wanted perpetual they will already have it. I sincerely doubt just because some project eventually is marketed as 'completed in another app' is really going to change the tide.
> ...



That is true. and of course the compatitability between projects to import session data from several sound designers etc and music composers.

Avid seems to be really going for only that market though. Or thats their main cash cow although how many studios in LA that have this setup vs random folks who would buy logic for $300 or something. So going for sub only is interesting. I see more newcomers using FL studio (most pirated) and Reaper (cheapest). 

It brings an interestin discussion for 2022 with the new macs. The power cpu the m1 ultra 128gb of ram could mean there is a chance someone technically could mix something as big as the avengers in one computer (maybe in reels), with an adapter to sync to a projector and a drive bay. And not have to deal with 3 computer setups. Just one mixer. Becuase i do remember those setups, which now are inlcuding atmos, and if one its too much maybe a second one just for printing stems.
And if Nuendo is more cpu friendly and has atmos as well, it could potentially change things. Of course, these studios wont do something like this with thousands on the line just to see how it works. but still.. an interesting thought.
I know that Nuendo, to my surprise is used a LOT more than pro tooks for post work. So maybe we will see this coming from England one day. With dub stages, ADR, foley etc all being done in Nuendo.


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## gsilbers (Apr 27, 2022)

X-Bassist said:


> No, that left many years ago. Any hardware works with native protocols, and as long as you don’t need a lot of hardware outputs, software and a good box (like my fireface uc) is all you need. For me protocols has editing options that are way beyond Cubase or any other DAW I’ve worked on. Plus I know all the shortcuts, which many DAW’s don’t have.
> 
> Even video editors I’ve worked on (Premire, FCPX, Avid) don’t have the amount of options PT has. Those guys at digidesign had the time to add so much, then sold it off. I still like the updates (folders, presets, customizations) but $1000/yr, or even $400/yr, is an expense I’ll have to think about.
> 
> If I was just doing music I would migrate to CB, but most of my work is sound design, foley, mixing for films. I tried an edit on CB last year but it wasn’t the same. Editing many tracks of detailed audio can take a lot of time when the tools aren’t right. There use to be crews for this, but not often any more.



Have you tried Nuendo? Since its geared more towards post, id think he audio editing tools would be more like PT


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## JohnG (Apr 27, 2022)

timprebble said:


> are there any large scale dub stages running Nuendo or Reaper?


I was told by someone knowledgeable that NHK, one of the biggest entertainment companies in the world, mostly uses Nuendo for sound editing and other tasks. So that's one, though it's sound editing and that kind of thing. They use Pro Tools on their big recording stages.

*It's All About Large Live Recording*

While we've seen many "I hate Pro Tools" threads here, I have never seen anyone who works with large live sessions vote against PT.

The arguments include:
"It doesn't do anything you can't do on Reaper / Cubase / [insert your software name here]"
"It's all marketing hype / people are stupid."

I don't agree with either argument as such, though (see below) there are a couple of provisos. 

1. Pro Tools still offers near-zero latency. Some DAWs can kinda do it, some can't. For some that can, it's clumsy. Players really hate latency, especially if the parts are difficult and fiddly.

2. If you have a 90 piece orchestra and you are trying to do "just one more overdub" with 70 mics out in the hall and six minutes to go on your last day of recording, you don't want to use something else. Pro Tools' capacity (with multiple rigs) is mind-boggling.

3. Installed base, muscle memory -- call it whatever but every engineer knows how to use PT and they do NOT know how to use all the DAWs. So if you're recording a big session, that's what you're most likely going to use.

Provisos, or "why _not_ use Pro Tools:"

1. If you're a solo composer working on relatively contained projects, sure, you can just use your DAW and no reason to change. That's especially true if it's all or 99% in the box (few or no live performers).

2. If you just want to write some music, even in 5.1 or higher channel counts, you can do it on a number of platforms -- so no need to change.


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## JohnG (Apr 27, 2022)

José Herring said:


> does one still need to buy the expensive PT hardware to go a long with this subscription crap?


You don't exactly have to buy their stuff but if you use a competitor's interface your track count is nerfed. Unless they changed that...


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## rgames (Apr 27, 2022)

I don't know what the subscription fees are but my guess is it's not a factor for most professional studios. If Avid does like Adobe they'll price it in the middle of the prosumer market where they'll keep some/most of that market but lose a lot of the hobbyists who tinker with it.

I suspect the increase in profitability arises because most professionals don't buy the latest-and-greatest and forcing them into that model makes up for the losses in the hobbyist market. Plus, there's advantage in greater certainty of sales. It certainly worked wonders for Adobe's profitability and market cap.

The good news is we all get to vote with our dollars.

rgames


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## timprebble (Apr 27, 2022)

JohnG said:


> You don't exactly have to buy their stuff but if you use a competitor's interface your track count is nerfed. Unless they changed that...


They have changed that. With PT Ultimate Native you can use whatever io you like.
After first owning Nubus and then PCI based ProTools rigs I changed to native when they allowed third party io, and I now use 4 MOTU interfaces patched via their AVB network. ProTools Ultimate Native works perfectly with them now (For a start Avid limited the max io for Native but those limitations have been removed now too)


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## jmauz (Apr 27, 2022)

JohnG said:


> I was told by someone knowledgeable that NHK, one of the biggest entertainment companies in the world, mostly uses Nuendo for sound editing and other tasks. So that's one, though it's sound editing and that kind of thing. They use Pro Tools on their big recording stages.
> 
> *It's All About Large Live Recording*
> 
> ...


These arguments used to be true but over the last several years I've used Cubase/Nuendo and Logic in several large ensemble situations with no problems. Just last week I attended a remote session via Source Connect with 85 musicians and over 60 inputs in Nuendo. Flawless session. 

Moreover, several large studio facilities here in L.A. have started using Nuendo by default. In most project studios these days I see Cubase and Logic more than anything.

In terms of the muscle memory argument, you can easily and quickly configure key commands to follow Pro Tools defaults in most DAWs that I've seen.

It's all personal preference and they all work great, I'm just reporting what I've been seeing in the industry recently. Over the past 2 years I can count on one hand how many times I've had to work in Pro Tools. As far as I can tell, Avid remains king in post production and field recording but in the music industry it's a very different story.


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## timprebble (Apr 27, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> Avid seems to be really going for only that market though. Or thats their main cash cow although how many studios in LA that have this setup vs random folks who would buy logic for $300 or something.



Avid have always had the sound post market, due to existing since the beginning of DAWs... but that has also been reinforced in the last decade with integration to their large scale (& scaleable) mix consoles.

I think it is far more the music industry (all levels) and the entry level market that they are primarily targeting now and with these sub options. The latter is vital for any company, as that's where their future pro users come from.

I suspect that like many users I loathe being forced to change, and prefer to change when it suits me. Having owned Photoshop for many years it annoyed me to be forced to changed to sub, but a year or two later it doesn't annoy me as I use many Adobe apps (Premiere, After Effects). But the reality is that these companies do force change, simply as they stop developing for older OS etc... So eg despite still owning Photoshop perpetual, the day I upgrade to M1 or whatever is the day that perpetual license becomes worthless and the sub option becomes a fait accompli. Big companies play the long game.


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## AudioLoco (Apr 28, 2022)

JohnG said:


> I was told by someone knowledgeable that NHK, one of the biggest entertainment companies in the world, mostly uses Nuendo for sound editing and other tasks. So that's one, though it's sound editing and that kind of thing. They use Pro Tools on their big recording stages.
> 
> *It's All About Large Live Recording*
> 
> ...


Heya John, I think we already had a similar conversation on these pages.... I think it is literally the only thing I don't agree with you about, by reading you on these pages 

I disagree with point number 1. You are talking about VERY, VERY large sessions in my opinion.
These type of sessions are not the norm exactly at the moment.

The no latency thing has been possible with other DAWS (Surely Cubendo) for years.
In my mid sized studio I can record tens of channels with no latency (bands would notice and hate every ms of latency - no such a thing my place) using not one but two possible methods: 
I can use the "direct monitoring" function which is a clever Steinberg implementation present in Cubendo for more then a decade. With it it is possible to use an external mixer (digital on analog) for monitoring purposes. The other option is RME Total Mix which works well and lets you do the same thing, monitoring without latency without the need for any external or internal devices.
You can also EQ compress and add reverb for monitoring purposes.
I myself play and record live instruments all the time and have zero tolerance for latency and would be jumping on any other DAW if I couldn't do that smoothly in the one I'm using.

It is surely true that PT, with the right amount of HDxyxyz expensive cards, can perform this more smoothly and elegantly as you do everything from the PT mixer and importantly, for some, you can apply plugins in real time while recording. If you record all flat or processed by hardware on its way in this function is kinda redundant but I understand it might be handy. Still a UAD card can help achieve that if it is important. Honestly from my experience the only ones really *needing* this as a requirement are some singers/rappers that want to record with live Autotune doing its thing.

The 90 tracks (very) large scenario for smoothness and compatibility and any engineer coming in and starting to work is surely true, I'm not saying it is not, but in that case you are talking about a few studios PER COUNTRY in which it can be worth recording an orchestra. 
That is not such a great target on a commercial level me would think... I mean there are very specialized software like Sequia for mastering but it would be a small market to aim for, thus (an important point I think) also not really helping to push the company for innovation - which seems to me close to what is happening. (BTW: on the recent versions of PT do you finally have folder tracks or you still need to have an infinite session scroll of doom? Do you have the option of simply typing the plugin you want to insert or so you need to scroll through hundreds of plugins? - simple stuff but time saving and session facilitators. Are there any life changing innovations introduced by AVID recently?)

Point number 3 is very true. 
But things change. In the earlier days you had an engineer and a PT operator working together as the engineer often didn't know how to press record. Now 95% of the times it is the same person. It is not that difficult to learn a different DAW for a pro engineer although it requires some brain work for sure. Also as PT didn't have a viable entry level product to get started on for young and upcoming engineers and producers (the track limit and other silly limitations they put over the years on various LE products were a no go for any slightly serious work) so the new blood coming in (which is mostly NOT going to start by working as an assistant, like I had the privilege of doing, in one of the hundreds of recording studios present in every major city - like in the 80's 90's or even early 00s) will not buy in and break their beak with PT.

So I personally don't see any real, significative huge plus apart from UNDENIABLE universal compatibility for post and surely smoother operation in some particular specialist VERY large situations.

I think the thread is about them going rouge... I mean... subscription. 
The "hate Pro Tools" thing is not that relevant IMHO but I have to admit the money me, my studio partners and engineer friends spent on them over the years could have been spent better (in non depreciating vintage hardware, in guitars or drugs or that weird thing called holiday) and I have zero trust in the company.
Seeing this recent move just confirms my thoughts about them.

People should use what they know and enjoy and think is up for the task; and I don't consider them to be stupid or victims of marketing or judge them for sure! 
I am just kind of concerned the industry will move as a whole to sub based where in a few years time you would have a hefty monthly bill to pay for every different DAW and plugin - penalty - it will simply stop working. 
So I view every such move with suspicion.

Sorry about the long and winding post...


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## Flyo (Apr 28, 2022)

Every update they charge you like a new daw almost, and then even that, you can’t upgrade any more your perpetual, they want your money every month or year. F#ck Avid man. I will be moving to another daw without doubt


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## Flyo (Apr 28, 2022)

I see a lot of complaints about the longer big bug on PT sample rounding error and they don’t fixed yet, even in 2022! If you want to make lasercut editing you will find it, and will drive you crazy. Uff the most annoying on any profesional software


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## dts_marin (Apr 28, 2022)

Market cap $1.5B! Amongst top holders Blackrock & Vanguard. Enough said. I think no musician should support this atrocity of a company. Support smaller companies that value customers instead of shareholders.


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## cqd (Apr 28, 2022)

Tbh I don't think this new development is as bad as people are making out if you have a perpetual license already..They've brought back reinstatements, so you can get current and carry on as usual..
Hooks new users to a subscription model, but shur that's the way thing's are going..
yeah, it's expensive if you don't have a dodgy academic license, but shur it's what we're used to..


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## Flyo (Apr 28, 2022)

A reinstatement it’s only $350!! Jajaja I mean I could pay another 2 daws with already Apple silicon compatible. And then they will let you outside when your $350!! 1 year support plan expire. As usual avid says
f#ck to their costumers.


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## Flyo (Apr 28, 2022)

$350 for a non compatible Apple silicon update o right. And we are not talking about HD ultimate users, you imagine the price goes up and up. Like always avid.


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## gsilbers (Apr 28, 2022)

cqd said:


> Tbh I don't think this new development is as bad as people are making out if you have a perpetual license already..They've brought back reinstatements, so you can get current and carry on as usual..
> Hooks new users to a subscription model, but shur that's the way thing's are going..
> yeah, it's expensive if you don't have a dodgy academic license, but shur it's what we're used to..



The issue is also what will happen to that perpetual licence in a couple of years. Once Apple announces what comes after Monterrey and Avid already thinking on how to get all those perpetual license holders to move on to subscription only. Just like Adobe. 

Those who have perpetual paid a lot for the ultimate version. Its about $2500 + updates etc, where most DAWs have about the same for much less money.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 28, 2022)

X-Bassist said:


> No, that left many years ago. Any hardware works with native protocols, and as long as you don’t need a lot of hardware outputs, software and a good box (like my fireface uc) is all you need. For me protocols has editing options that are way beyond Cubase or any other DAW I’ve worked on. Plus I know all the shortcuts, which many DAW’s don’t have.
> 
> Even video editors I’ve worked on (Premire, FCPX, Avid) don’t have the amount of options PT has. Those guys at digidesign had the time to add so much, then sold it off. I still like the updates (folders, presets, customizations) but $1000/yr, or even $400/yr, is an expense I’ll have to think about.
> 
> If I was just doing music I would migrate to CB, but most of my work is sound design, foley, mixing for films. I tried an edit on CB last year but it wasn’t the same. Editing many tracks of detailed audio can take a lot of time when the tools aren’t right. There use to be crews for this, but not often any more.


This is kind of my question. When I have had to add music to video, ProTools is easy for me to use. Is there anything else out there that is just as easy? I mean the first thing I do is go through and put in fixed markers for music changes/big hits, which makes it so much easier to write to the video. Once and done. And I don't even use a lot of the fancy stuff. 

For just music, Cubase or Studio One is fine.


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## gsilbers (Apr 28, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> This is kind of my question. When I have had to add music to video, ProTools is easy for me to use. Is there anything else out there that is just as easy? I mean the first thing I do is go through and put in fixed markers for music changes/big hits, which makes it so much easier to write to the video. Once and done. And I don't even use a lot of the fancy stuff.
> 
> For just music, Cubase or Studio One is fine.


Cant you do that with Cubase? In another session


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## AudioLoco (Apr 28, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> This is kind of my question. When I have had to add music to video, ProTools is easy for me to use. Is there anything else out there that is just as easy? I mean the first thing I do is go through and put in fixed markers for music changes/big hits, which makes it so much easier to write to the video. Once and done. And I don't even use a lot of the fancy stuff.
> 
> For just music, Cubase or Studio One is fine.


I genuinely don't understand the issue.... 
I use video with Cubase all the time...


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## dts_marin (Apr 28, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> This is kind of my question. When I have had to add music to video, ProTools is easy for me to use. Is there anything else out there that is just as easy? I mean the first thing I do is go through and put in fixed markers for music changes/big hits, which makes it so much easier to write to the video. Once and done. And I don't even use a lot of the fancy stuff.
> 
> For just music, Cubase or Studio One is fine.


Digital Performer is also great for film scoring. Syncing to picture and conforming cues is quick and it works, what else do you need? I know DP in general doesn't look very appealing but how can they compete with behemoth corporations like AVID and Steinberg (Yamaha) or Apple (Logic)?

They are doing pretty good considering the competition.


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## fakemaxwell (Apr 28, 2022)

JohnG said:


> 3. Installed base, muscle memory -- call it whatever but every engineer knows how to use PT and they do NOT know how to use all the DAWs. So if you're recording a big session, that's what you're most likely going to use.


This is really the only reason. Nuendo and Reaper have no issues with latency or large track recording. 

Every DAW is going to have pros and cons (for instance, Reaper is behind the ball on large format console support). The problem is when an entire industry is locked into one set of pros and cons. It made sense 10+ years ago when nothing was competing with Pro Tools at a high level, but nowadays there's quite a few ways to get great results. Couple that with the annoying business practices and absolutely God awful support, I don't see any reason to not push against the inertia.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 28, 2022)

I have to say, I don't really have a problem with subscription as long as they also offer the option to buy - like EW does.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 28, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> Cant you do that with Cubase? In another session





AudioLoco said:


> I genuinely don't understand the issue....
> I use video with Cubase all the time...


I haven't figured out how to do this. I'm just going to say the manual kind of sucks when coming from another DAW. The nomenclature is different and finding things in it is difficult. I've gone through most of the training videos on Groove3, but they skip over basic stuff that they think you already know, which I don't. I am pretty intuitive with software, but I couldn't find the import video option. I maybe missing it because it isn't called "import video" Workflow-wise, it annoys me. I don't think I've finished anything using it. 



dts_marin said:


> Digital Performer is also great for film scoring. Syncing to picture and conforming cues is quick and it works, what else do you need? I know DP in general doesn't look very appealing but how can they compete with behemoth corporations like AVID and Steinberg (Yamaha) or Apple (Logic)?
> 
> They are doing pretty good considering the competition.


I think I have DP9, but never really played with it. Got it during the "Cakewalk is going out of business - get your discounted crossgrades now!" time. I get the blank screen freeze with it - it loads a blank nothing and I'm not sure where to start


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## AudioLoco (Apr 28, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> I haven't figured out how to do this. I'm just going to say the manual kind of sucks when coming from another DAW. The nomenclature is different and finding things in it is difficult. I've gone through most of the training videos on Groove3, but they skip over basic stuff that they think you already know, which I don't. I am pretty intuitive with software, but I couldn't find the import video option. I maybe missing it because it isn't called "import video" Workflow-wise, it annoys me. I don't think I've finished anything using it.


You are right, the manual does suck, but it does for most software I know!
It is certainly doable and works great  Never had issues.

There is an import video file and you can even just drag and drop the vid on the project page.
*And* you can also export a video file with your audio which wasn't possible in older versions.


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## dts_marin (Apr 28, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> I think I have DP9, but never really played with it. Got it during the "Cakewalk is going out of business - get your discounted crossgrades now!" time. I get the blank screen freeze with it - it loads a blank nothing and I'm not sure where to start


Give the DP11 trial a go. Admittedly it's hard to find info about DP compared to Cubase or Logic.

Open a support ticket describing the issue. They may help you if you say you're interested in trying DP again. 

It's very underrated and I'm quite sad it lost a lot of high profile users during the 2010's because of stability issues (I assume). Some issues are still present but it's getting a lot better.

I'm sure all of these users loved DP's film scoring workflow and they miss some of its unique features.


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## jeffrona (Apr 28, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> Pro tools is now sub only.
> 
> Time to jump ship
> 
> Confusing the names and tiers for like the 4th time in a few years.


Not a huge fan of subscriptions myself. Buy it, own it. But lots of companies get around that by giving you a few updates, and then creating an entirely new version and calling it *silver* or *gold* or *platinum*, or upping the version number and saying it’s not the same product anymore. Maybe it really doesn’t matter whether it’s a purchase or a subscription, if you want to stay up-to-date it’s going to cost money in the long run.


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## gsilbers (Apr 28, 2022)

jeffrona said:


> Not a huge fan of subscriptions myself. Buy it, own it. But lots of companies get around that by giving you a few updates, and then creating an entirely new version and calling it *silver* or *gold* or *platinum*, or upping the version number and saying it’s not the same product anymore. Maybe it really doesn’t matter whether it’s a purchase or a subscription, if you want to stay up-to-date it’s going to cost money in the long run.



I dont mind paying for the updates once I need them or they have something cool. But Avid has been very inconsistent , flakey and other companies subscriptions offer a lot more.
Leaving a perpetual licence and filling the sub with extra plugins, content, community would have been better, and even maybe just a lower tier sub for updates only. 
Kinda like the saying says: "y*ou get more flies with honey than with vinegar*” 


And also, the big issue now its that Avids path is very clear; going subscription only for everyone, eventually. Playing the long game. So maybe after Monterrey everyone will be forced to pay $1000 a month. Not looking forward to that if it happens. 

No doubt every company is looking to do the same. But big difference on the implementation. Waves and its WUP for example. Very very hated.

So im looking at Nuendo now. And seeing ways to colaborate in post.


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## gsilbers (Apr 28, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> I haven't figured out how to do this. I'm just going to say the manual kind of sucks when coming from another DAW. The nomenclature is different and finding things in it is difficult. I've gone through most of the training videos on Groove3, but they skip over basic stuff that they think you already know, which I don't. I am pretty intuitive with software, but I couldn't find the import video option. I maybe missing it because it isn't called "import video" Workflow-wise, it annoys me. I don't think I've finished anything using it.
> 
> 
> I think I have DP9, but never really played with it. Got it during the "Cakewalk is going out of business - get your discounted crossgrades now!" time. I get the blank screen freeze with it - it loads a blank nothing and I'm not sure where to start


Yeah, my issue with cubase is that almost every video is about a specific version and flying over the basics. OR the basics way too basic :-/
Cubase has a ton of options and tricks and possibilties that actually put me off because i was spending more time tweaking than making music. Big leanring curve. If i was starting then yes. but now its just too much. 
I have a feeling that once i try Nuendo itll be similar. 
The Atmos videos i saw where amazing, but still couldn' really see how or where stuff was. 
Cubase i think had some issues with video a while back. Thats why I ask as well.


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## gsilbers (Apr 28, 2022)

timprebble said:


> Avid have always had the sound post market, due to existing since the beginning of DAWs... but that has also been reinforced in the last decade with integration to their large scale (& scaleable) mix consoles.
> 
> I think it is far more the music industry (all levels) and the entry level market that they are primarily targeting now and with these sub options. The latter is vital for any company, as that's where their future pro users come from.
> 
> I suspect that like many users I loathe being forced to change, and prefer to change when it suits me. Having owned Photoshop for many years it annoyed me to be forced to changed to sub, but a year or two later it doesn't annoy me as I use many Adobe apps (Premiere, After Effects). But the reality is that these companies do force change, simply as they stop developing for older OS etc... So eg despite still owning Photoshop perpetual, the day I upgrade to M1 or whatever is the day that perpetual license becomes worthless and the sub option becomes a fait accompli. Big companies play the long game.



See, I got Affinity and Camtasia/FCP instead of Adobe stuff. Adobe still grew a lot since then. 
Also Adobe does offer a ton more for that sub. 
so who knows what will happen here. Avids main market is the LA post crowd. Theve clearly lost ground to premiere. And PT for music has come down a lot. 
Ill be looking at Nuendo and how it competes. Its Atmos implementation was amazing in comparisons to PT. 
A lot of post is being done in UK so itll be interesting to see if it grows from there. 
Music wise, well, I dont think avid is planning too well. The CEO seems to just saw the change to sub at Adobe and planned only that but not the content, community, push to the prosume/youtyber crowd etc while avid kept pushig to the high end crowd.


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## samphony (Apr 28, 2022)




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## easyrider (Apr 28, 2022)

Unless you are a pro and need PT for your job….I don’t understand anyone using PT out of choice over other DAWS.


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## EgM (Apr 28, 2022)

easyrider said:


> Unless you are a pro and need PT for your job….I don’t understand anyone using PT out of choice over other DAWS.


Apparently most people hooked to it seem to like the shortcut keys it offers... 
One hell of a price to pay for not learning shortcut keys in other *better*/affordable DAWs


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## easyrider (Apr 28, 2022)

EgM said:


> Apparently most people hooked to it seem to like the shortcut keys it offers...
> One hell of a price to pay for not learning shortcut keys in other *better*/affordable DAWs


You can use and setup Protools keyboard shortcuts in S1


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## EgM (Apr 28, 2022)

easyrider said:


> You can use and setup Protools keyboard shortcuts in S1


Oh I know! :D


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## timprebble (Apr 28, 2022)

EgM said:


> Apparently most people hooked to it seem to like the shortcut keys it offers...
> One hell of a price to pay for not learning shortcut keys in other *better*/affordable DAWs


As you know it 100% depends on the use, so this 'better' just seems naive/sill and troll-like (this forum does not see many trolls, and that's a good thing!)

Any examples of feature films mixed in Reaper or S1? Why is that?


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## gsilbers (Apr 28, 2022)

easyrider said:


> Unless you are a pro and need PT for your job….I don’t understand anyone using PT out of choice over other DAWS.


I do like the audio editing features and how fast it is for that. The robustness pushes poeple to better organization and professionalism as well as routing ability is very simple intuitive and useful. For film having to deal with hundred of tracks where theres constant stuff on most tracks it helps a lot.
for music, not sure. I always default to Logic. I do see ore poeple that record their own performances of acustic instrument tend to use pro tools. But maybe its because pro tools is the main daw used at big rec studios and those poeple just got used to it.
With the sub only and future non-perpectual (maybe), it might be an awakening to many who might start to question pro tools as a daw when they see so many tutorials with other daws.

for post i use PT but Im looking at Nuendo Myself and im liking what im seeing.


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## timprebble (Apr 28, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> I do like the audio editing features and how fast it is for that. The robustness pushes poeple to better organization and professionalism as well as routing ability is very simple intuitive and useful. For film having to deal with hundred of tracks where theres constant stuff on most tracks it helps a lot.
> for music, not sure. I always default to Logic. I do see ore poeple that record their own performances of acustic instrument tend to use pro tools. But maybe its because pro tools is the main daw used at big rec studios and those poeple just got used to it.
> With the sub only and future non-perpectual (maybe), it might be an awakening to many who might start to question pro tools as a daw when they see so many tutorials with other daws.
> 
> for post i use PT but Im looking at Nuendo Myself and im liking what im seeing.


I prefer ableton for writing music, but much prefer ProTools to mix in and working to picture. (But it is so easy to export stems from ableton, that there is no need for either/or)

For post, it very much depends what your sound editing team/co-workers all use - DX/Foley etc - and essential tech like conforms and which mix facility you work with....

And when you started your career. There is no substitute for your own lived experience, and no amount of youtube tutorials changes that.


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## EgM (Apr 28, 2022)

timprebble said:


> As you know it 100% depends on the use, so this 'better' just seems naive/sill and troll-like (this forum does not see many trolls, and that's a good thing!)
> 
> Any examples of feature films mixed in Reaper or S1? Why is that?


My main weapon is S1, but I still use Cubase 12 as a solid second. HZ has no problems with it, I don't know man, just sayin'


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## gsilbers (Apr 28, 2022)

timprebble said:


> I prefer ableton for writing music, but much prefer ProTools to mix in and working to picture. (But it is so easy to export stems from ableton, that there is no need for either/or)
> 
> For post, it very much depends what your sound editing team/co-workers all use - DX/Foley etc - and essential tech like conforms and which mix facility you work with....
> 
> And when you started your career. There is no substitute for your own lived experience, and no amount of youtube tutorials changes that.


My tutorial comment is not about specific daw tutorials where you learn a daw. its about any music tutorial being shown in another DAW where poepl might questions its commitment to pro tools. Like being in ableton and a lot of film scoring turials and youtbers use cubase and someone wants to learn filmscoring. thats it.

The post team is something im wondering about. since AAF/OMF could work also. everyone being in pt is easier of course. But as more tv shows and streaming platforms want to offer more content, budgets will start to come down and teams might get reduced for certain content where even mgith be handled by one person. Maybe the big team/interchange might not be as as cut and dry. i do prefer working with others in pt for post. but for music getting tracks or stems works. But i woudnt mind getting foley in 8 tracks with a 2pop for a 30min tv show for example if the foley guy did it in nuendo. or whatever.


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## sourcefor (Apr 28, 2022)

I jumped ship a long time ago and have not needed protools so bye bye! I’ll rent it for a month if I need it!


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## artomatic (Apr 28, 2022)

Just waiting for a stable version with M1 support and I'll park my PTU perpetual.
It's a pain to learn a new DAW when I've been a user since Digidesign's advent.
I love PT but It's just too expensive!


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## dzilizzi (Apr 28, 2022)

easyrider said:


> Unless you are a pro and need PT for your job….I don’t understand anyone using PT out of choice over other DAWS.


I learnt on it since version 6. It is very easy for me to use. I love the playlist when recording vocals. you can set it up to record a spot multiple times and then edit to get the best take very easily. I'm actually able to look at the soundwave and match it to what I am hearing really easily. It makes for really easy editing. Almost as easy as tape editing. And I know Cubase does all that, but it just isn't as easy for me as PT. There are other things too. But it comes down to, ease of use. It makes sense with my brain. The closest I've come to PT is Studio One. But it isn't quite there.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 28, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> For years people were forced to use their mediocre interfaces and converters as an extremely expensive dongle


They opened it up what,15 years ago? But I'd say the history is somewhat more complicated than that.

First, it took years for anyone to catch up with Digidesign (most notably Steinberg). If you wanted to run digital audio on a computer, your choice was Digidesign or Digidesign. Computers required add-on hardware until the late '90s, at least in high-pressure situations. And in my opinion they got the audio editing interface just right.

Anyway, I'm not sure that I'd call the 888 and 888/24 as bad as mediocre for the day, having owned both of them. The MBoxes, which came out later... okay, you have an argument there. 

But this was all at the tail end of the tail-chasing era, when products were superseded by something better as soon as you unpacked the carton - if you were lucky. And it was before the golden age of digital audio, which I'd say has arrived - never mind that now the trend has reversed toward compressed stuff on iPhone headphones. 

So. You could use Apogee converters if the 888/24 wasn't good enough (or you could use the ADAT Bridge and use anything else via lightpipe). Still, Digidesign was very concerned at the time about the quality of their interfaces. PT product manager Dave LeBolt (who later became CEO) went to studios to try and figure out what the complaints were.

And there were complaints, but I always found them overblown.

It's true that Digidesign would come out with expensive upgrades fairly often, rendering the previous $10K system obsolete. I'd given them my credit card to upgrade to the latest PCI version in 2003, but got cold feet while they were backordered. In retrospect that was a good decision, but I miss the Soundtoys TDM plug-ins. 

Subscription software... that's another subject. I personally hate it, but sometimes there's no choice.


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## gsilbers (Apr 28, 2022)

EgM said:


> My main weapon is S1, but I still use Cubase 12 as a solid second. HZ has no problems with it, I don't know man, just sayin'



I think for music its a very common thought. ITs just another daw. for audio post production its a whole different ball game. In los angeles pro tools has a tight grip on the post audio world. Apple as well. Basically going to a studio in LA and not seeing pro tools or Mac is just odd. Cubase and mac does have become more popular thanks to HZ. Before it was DP and somehwat logic. At the end its just tools, but since its client based studios, mac and protools are a must. sadly.
For audio post is also related to big studio specs and deliverables. Many specs say to deliver a pro tools session. Just to give you an idea of just how much its interwebed into the audio post business.
But i dont doubt that given an option, nuendo would be better overall. Cubase has proven itself in the filmscoring world. And in music well, seems avid is behind the curve a bit. Id like to know the most used daw. I think its ableton live and second logic and way last pf the major players, pro tools. but i might be wrong. 
Avid just hasnt focused on what matters. just on the sub. if they had a splice service. Deals with developers for AAX discounts. pushed community youtbe channels and forums. Getting random bigname artists etc then it would be different. 
Heck , have mike verta be one of the main pro tools guy. he still uses it. his stuff is amazing. but nope. those things also grow daw usage.


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## gsilbers (Apr 28, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> They opened it up what,15 years ago? But I'd say the history is somewhat more complicated than that.
> 
> First, it took years for anyone to catch up with Digidesign (most notably Steinberg). If you wanted to run digital audio on a computer, your choice was Digidesign or Digidesign. Computers required add-on hardware until the late '90s, at least in high-pressure situations. And in my opinion they got the audio editing interface just right.
> 
> ...


I think thats one thing with sentiment with avid. all those expensive HD rigs and hardware that got later bricked. And where so expensive which ended up being a dongle. Not far from apple and logic of course. but more specific. 
So i got a bad taste becuase of that a while ago buying an hd rig, cards etc and then it opened up and it was like wtf. this could have happend like 5 years earlier. And always seems more like a cash grab than anything else. Just exuses to lock poeple in and suck em dry. UAD is another one in this example. 

At $2500 plus paid upgrades i feel is more than enough to keep PT. but someone cannot be thinking that in 2 years avid wont be like .. hey.. no more perpetual. not its call semi perpetual flexed into subscription tier and you have to pay $1000 a year to use your old projects with that new OS version. or whatever. 

To me, which ive keep saying it, Avid is the most hated DAW company. Pro tools is not bad per se. Its just the business side is out of control.


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## Alex Niedt (Apr 28, 2022)

EgM said:


> Apparently most people hooked to it seem to like the shortcut keys it offers...
> One hell of a price to pay for not learning shortcut keys in other *better*/affordable DAWs


I've used Pro Tools, Cubase, Reaper, Cakewalk, and I'm currently testing out Studio One. As much as I don't want to support Avid at all, I still honestly prefer the workflow in Pro Tools. The way everything is laid out in an immediately obvious and accessible manner makes mixing so incredibly intuitive/fluid and fast that you don't even necessarily need to use the mix window. Particularly for post work, I yearn for PT's audio editing/clip gain editing/etc. the entire time I'm using Cubase (yes, I have all the shortcuts set up the same). While other DAWs have a lot of cool new features and PT is perpetually "behind", in my experience, PT does all the basic stuff better. Every time I try a different DAW, there's always at least a handful of stuff that boggles my mind surrounding basic layout, editing, and so on, that no amount of available customization ever seems to remedy. I've been using Cubase almost exclusively for the last few years, and it still often drives me up a wall when I'm doing anything other than working with VIs and getting my musical ideas out. I want to fully love another DAW, but I'm currently finding it impossible. Still haven't tried Digital Performer, though...


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## cqd (Apr 28, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> I learnt on it since version 6. It is very easy for me to use. I love the playlist when recording vocals. you can set it up to record a spot multiple times and then edit to get the best take very easily. I'm actually able to look at the soundwave and match it to what I am hearing really easily. It makes for really easy editing. Almost as easy as tape editing. And I know Cubase does all that, but it just isn't as easy for me as PT. There are other things too. But it comes down to, ease of use. It makes sense with my brain. The closest I've come to PT is Studio One. But it isn't quite there.


Yeah, the playlists are great..even for just throwing down a few verses with guitar..5 or six loops and you can cut 15 different versions with them in no time..
I was considering S1 a while ago but went back to pt..might try again, but i dunno..I have an edu perpetual this year and a reinstatement for a few years down the line..


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## Prockamanisc (Apr 28, 2022)

Alex Niedt said:


> The way everything is laid out in an immediately obvious and accessible manner


When I first bought it in 2005, as a COMPLETE newbie, it took me a month to learn how to hit record. Year later, after finishing grad school, someone paid me $20 to show them how to hit record. Based on personal experience, it's not intuitive at all.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Apr 28, 2022)

Alex Niedt said:


> I've used Pro Tools, Cubase, Reaper, Cakewalk, and I'm currently testing out Studio One. As much as I don't want to support Avid at all, I still honestly prefer the workflow in Pro Tools. The way everything is laid out in an immediately obvious and accessible manner makes mixing so incredibly intuitive/fluid and fast that you don't even necessarily need to use the mix window. Particularly for post work, I yearn for PT's audio editing/clip gain editing/etc. the entire time I'm using Cubase (yes, I have all the shortcuts set up the same). While other DAWs have a lot of cool new features and PT is perpetually "behind", in my experience, PT does all the basic stuff better. Every time I try a different DAW, there's always at least a handful of stuff that boggles my mind surrounding basic layout, editing, and so on, that no amount of available customization ever seems to remedy. I've been using Cubase almost exclusively for the last few years, and it still often drives me up a wall when I'm doing anything other than working with VIs and getting my musical ideas out. I want to fully love another DAW, but I'm currently finding it impossible. Still haven't tried Digital Performer, though...


I’m right there with you. How has no other DAW realized that people might want to add a plug-in or adjust volume, pan, and sends from the main window without having to go to some BS “inspector” or mix page? Currently using Cubase but despite all it can do I get the feeling the people who make it don’t really think things through.


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## Alex Niedt (Apr 28, 2022)

Prockamanisc said:


> When I first bought it in 2005, as a COMPLETE newbie, it took me a month to learn how to hit record. Year later, after finishing grad school, someone paid me $20 to show them how to hit record. Based on personal experience, it's not intuitive at all.


Personal experience as a noob 17 years ago seems wildly irrelevant to the current status of a software program in 2022



Jeremy Gillam said:


> I’m right there with you. How has no other DAW realized that people might want to add a plug-in or adjust volume, pan, and sends from the main window without having to go to some BS “inspector” or mix page? Currently using Cubase but despite all it can do I get the feeling the people who make it don’t really think things through.


Exactly. And the specifics bothering me right now... The awkward pencil tool workflow on audio clips could never replace clip gain automation. Can't reorder sends in Cubase dropdowns. No mono-to-stereo plug-in workflow. Can't just drag in crossfades. Trim automation workflow is horribly click-heavy (a _lot_ of stuff feels click-heavy). Oh, and the mix window faders non-optionally responding to scroll wheel movement can be a major nuisance (should be a checkbox in Preferences).


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## easyrider (Apr 29, 2022)

The new VI synthcell looks uncannily like the synth in Studio One......


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## AudioLoco (Apr 29, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> They opened it up what,15 years ago? But I'd say the history is somewhat more complicated than that.


I think they went native less then 15 years ago, maybe 10 or less? I honestly can't remember exactly but let's say they have done it years after it was clearly possible to it spec-wise and you had better options around, so it was a clear commercial decision which let us say wasn't a decision to benefit their customers.


Nick Batzdorf said:


> First, it took years for anyone to catch up with Digidesign (most notably Steinberg). If you wanted to run digital audio on a computer, your choice was Digidesign or Digidesign. Computers required add-on hardware until the late '90s, at least in high-pressure situations. And in my opinion they got the audio editing interface just right.



Yes they were the pioneers for sure, and the best option for audio around. I have to say early 00s Nuendo was already up to scratch as a program but native CPUs still weren't fast enough and TDM plugins were on another level at the time.


Nick Batzdorf said:


> Anyway, I'm not sure that I'd call the 888 and 888/24 as bad as mediocre for the day, having owned both of them. The MBoxes, which came out later... okay, you have an argument there.


888 was terrible c'mmon!  But yes not many other options around at the time. That or...Adat...
And oh my god, I had one of those useless Mboxes for a while as I was hoping to have a duplicate a PT rig at home to do some editing and basic recording. The worst piece of plastic tech I have ever owned probably 

(and the software was like limited to 24 channels and there was no latency compensation for plugins)


Nick Batzdorf said:


> So. You could use Apogee converters if the 888/24 wasn't good enough (or you could use the ADAT Bridge and use anything else via lightpipe). Still, Digidesign was very concerned at the time about the quality of their interfaces. PT product manager Dave LeBolt (who later became CEO) went to studios to try and figure out what the complaints were.


Yes that is the funny thing. Most studios had an Apogee or Prism convertors doing the actual conversion and the DIGI interfaces were there just to...interface.. (also later with the 96 new generation which were much better all round) In the studio were I started we had a nice classic Apogee AD8000 which still holds now although not on a Burl level let's say...


Nick Batzdorf said:


> Subscription software... that's another subject. I personally hate it, but sometimes there's no choice.


Well if consumers stand their ground and not give in when companies try to do that maybe there might be a choice


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## dts_marin (Apr 29, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> Well if consumers stand their ground and not give in when companies try to do that maybe there might be a choice


Consumers aren't the only problem. Companies that sell out to corporations are also screwing their loyal long time customers. I get it, they want to expand but in the process they sell their souls to the devil.

Sibelius was acquired by AVID. Presonus by Fender and the list goes on.. What do all these companies have in common? Shareholders and leaders that are clueless about artists, their needs & the industry.

That's why you have Gibson and other big name guitar companies pushing out hot garbage products nobody wants. They are clueless & out of touch bean counters.

Companies that retain their original founders and grow organically do MUCH better. e.g. PRS

There needs to be some kind of law which prohibits selling to investors that aren't personally heavily involved in the industry of small specialty companies. 

I don't want hedge fund managers to decide how my tools work.


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## ed buller (Apr 29, 2022)

I've used pro tools since the good old days of sound designer in 93. I beta tested 3 for a while in san Francisco. We were doing so many drum edits ( before beat detective ) that the sessions wouldn't load because of the crossfade re-draws !! In those days you could speak to people. Like the wonderful Bobby Lombardi and others. 

Now it's not worth it. AVID are a dreadful company ( IMHO ) and I now work as much as I can in CUBASE. Though I just had to deliver two albums in Pro-Tools !

I really don't miss it. For anybody just starting out my advice is avoid !

best

ed


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## X-Bassist (Apr 29, 2022)

Alex Niedt said:


> Every time I try a different DAW, there's always at least a handful of stuff that boggles my mind surrounding basic layout, editing, and so on, that no amount of available customization ever seems to remedy.


This. I’ve purchased and used Cubase, Logic, and DP in the past but within a week come across this problem again and again, basic functions in PT that make editing and mixing easier in PT that doesn’t exist in others, even with shortcuts.

It’s weird that no one has copied what PT is doing, but I suppose the post buisness is too small for them to care (compared to the home studio musician).


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## studioj (Apr 29, 2022)

Chiming in as a Pro Tools fan... I have used Logic since V4, DP since 2.4 or so, Cubase since the SX days, and more recently did a deep dive into Studio One. I didn't get into Pro Tools heavily until around 2014 or so. I'd consider myself a Logic power user, and I still prefer Pro Tools over all for just about everything. I enjoy it's simplicity and paired with a tool like SoundFlow (soundflow.org) it is incredibly powerful. Creatively speaking, it feels more transparent, less crap between my ideas and the sequencer / recorder. 

If you don't need to work in a score editor WITHIN the daw, it's actually really fabulous for film scoring... the "Song Start" feature is unique and so useful (this marker anchors the time line and so things you do to the tempo and meter before it, don't affect what's happening after). routing (cascade routing is fantastic), stemming, do-to-all type functions (we already know about the superior editing),... all these things move more fluidly in Pro Tools once you learn the workflow. I love that I never need to leave the edit window. I love how easy it is to bring up specific automation lines. I love that MIDI clips are treated like audio, in that data is never actually erased, it can be cut and then dragged back out to reveal. Templates with VEP feel very robust. It is easier to build automations with tools like Keyboard Maestro and Soundflow than other DAWS in my experience. 

Now with the Hybrid Engine, the native system lives very happily along side the DSP HDX stuff. Sure all these things are expensive, but not enough to affect my purchasing decisions as a pro. 

I do look forward to some attention to the MIDI editor, but when you dig into it and really learn the short cuts even the MIDI has a great workflow in comparison. 

I thought I had a winning replacement with Studio One for a min there, but there is a major drawback with tempo / time stretching and audio - it's fine for well defined loopy single tempo things, but doesn't conform properly to dynamic tempo changes like Elastic Audio in PT does. So I canceled the subscription. Maybe will revisit again one day, it's a powerful app!

Also if you've ever worked on a feature film score from top to delivery in PT, it is a treat...


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## blinkofani (Apr 29, 2022)

It has been mentioned that some people fear that one day even perpetual renewal will disappear. If that ever happens, my biggest fear is that all the free content that Avid gives right now to entice people to go sub won’t be free anymore. Imagine you’ve used tons of that content in numerous projects while it was given with your sub and then a month comes along where Avid stops including it in your sub(because everybody has to be on a sub at that point, so not an incentive anymore). What do you do? Render years-long of plugins to audio if you want your project to sound ok or pay up to continue to have access to that content? 
The glass is rarely half-full with Avid…


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## robgb (Apr 29, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> I have to say, I don't really have a problem with subscription as long as they also offer the option to buy - like EW does.


Best of both worlds.


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## gamma-ut (Apr 29, 2022)

blinkofani said:


> It has been mentioned that some people fear that one day even perpetual renewal will disappear. If that ever happens, my biggest fear is that all the free content that Avid gives right now to entice people to go sub won’t be free anymore. Imagine you’ve used tons of that content in numerous projects while it was given with your sub and then a month comes along where Avid stops including it in your sub(because everybody has to be on a sub at that point, so not an incentive anymore). What do you do? Render years-long of plugins to audio if you want your project to sound ok or pay up to continue to have access to that content?
> The glass is rarely half-full with Avid…


Always be printin'

Seriously, export the stems+FX returns at the end of the project and park them on a HDD or in Amazon Iceberg or whatever their long-term storage/backup option is called. It's not perfect but it gives an option for recall if plugins are no longer compatible or the challenge-response copy protection fails – it's not just a subscription issue.


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## rgames (Apr 29, 2022)

dts_marin said:


> That's why you have Gibson and other big name guitar companies pushing out hot garbage products nobody wants. They are clueless & out of touch bean counters.


So how do they stay in business?

As long as you have a free market, the scenario you're describing won't exist for very long. Hooray capitalism!

Note that the internet forums were full of people saying the same thing about Adobe when they went subscription. They have since grown dramatically. If you have a free market and a business continues to grow then that means they're providing products and services that people want. It's the closest thing to real democracy the world has.

Cheers,

rgames


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## robgb (Apr 29, 2022)

Jeremy Gillam said:


> How has no other DAW realized that people might want to add a plug-in or adjust volume, pan, and sends from the main window without having to go to some BS “inspector” or mix page?


Apparently you've never used Reaper?


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## dts_marin (Apr 29, 2022)

rgames said:


> So how do they stay in business?


By ridiculing the legacy of their former glory and milking every cent out of the remaining loyal customers. 

Also it's an economy of scale. More garbage pushed quantity-wise equals more sales mathematically. Even if you aim for the absolute lowest percentage, if you have more shelf/display/ad space you'll get more sales.

The market is ANYTHING but free. I don't want to get into much detail here but this is a very naive view of the financial market.

I'm extremely pro capitalism and pro free market but Blackrock, Vanguard and all the hedge funds combined with the politicians that profit from insider trading are the polar opposite of capitalism. They lie, cheat and steal.

You should cheer Hooray crony corporatism and unregulated market!

Monopolies can't do anything but grow unless they are incredibly inept and corrupt to the point of collapse. People really don't have any choices.

It's part of human nature. We take the path of the least resistance. Convenience is a powerful drug. In that sense Adobe is successful. 

Amazon, Google, Microsoft. They are the Standard Oil of the 21st century. Except because the digital domain complicates things, people haven't realized how truly bad it is. Also to boomer politicians the digital market isn't as urgent and critical as oil was/is. 

No company can exist without these guys. You mess with them you are done.

That's not a free market.


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## Alex Niedt (Apr 29, 2022)

robgb said:


> Apparently you've never used Reaper?


I've tried getting into Reaper multiple times over the years, and every time I've spent a week customizing and configuring to bring it to a state resembling something usable, and then it's still an aesthetically lacking (yes, I've tried scores of themes) DAW I don't enjoy. It feels like being given a basic shell to build your own DAW with, which I understand is the appeal for a lot of people, but I just want a well-designed experience that doesn't require 100 hours of tweaking. Before I jumped to Cubase, I tried it again. Really wanted to like it and make it work. Then the moment I tried Cubase, it was like, "Why am I doing all this work in Reaper only to have it pale to what Cubase is by default??" Complete waste of time for me. But everyone's needs are different.


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## robgb (Apr 29, 2022)

Alex Niedt said:


> I've tried getting into Reaper multiple times over the years, and every time I've spent a week customizing and configuring to bring it to a state resembling something usable, and then it's still an aesthetically lacking (yes, I've tried scores of themes) DAW I don't enjoy. It feels like being given a basic shell to build your own DAW with, which I understand is the appeal for a lot of people, but I just want a well-designed experience that doesn't require 100 hours of tweaking. Before I jumped to Cubase, I tried it again. Really wanted to like it and make it work. Then the moment I tried Cubase, it was like, "Why am I doing all this work in Reaper only to have it pale to what Cubase is by default??" Complete waste of time for me. But everyone's needs are different.


Different strokes. I love everything about it.


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## rgames (Apr 29, 2022)

dts_marin said:


> More garbage pushed quantity-wise equals more sales mathematically. Even if you aim for the absolute lowest percentage, if you have more shelf/display/ad space you'll get more sales.


Sales to whom?

If people are buying, then they're providing products that people want. Your description of their products as "garbage" is a judgement call. If enough other people disagree, then they have a right to vote with their dollars and keep the companies in business.

That is, in fact, precisely a free market!

I'm not sure what you mean by financial markets - I didn't say anything about financial markets.

We'll see what happens with Avid. As I mentioned, there was equal outrage on the internet when Adobe went subscription. People seem to have voted overwhelmingly in favor of keeping them in business. They have every right to do so.

(Maybe internet forums don't reflect reality? Nah...).

rgames


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 29, 2022)

Prockamanisc said:


> When I first bought it in 2005, as a COMPLETE newbie, it took me a month to learn how to hit record. Year later, after finishing grad school, someone paid me $20 to show them how to hit record. Based on personal experience, it's not intuitive at all.


In Pro Tools? They couldn't find the red record button? Yikes!


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## SandChannel (Apr 29, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> In Pro Tools? They couldn't find the red record button? Yikes!


They could 20 dollars later!


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## dts_marin (Apr 29, 2022)

rgames said:


> That is, in fact, precisely a free market!


I mentioned the companies I did for a very specific reason. (Fender & Gibson) 

Guitar is a super popular instrument. It transcends the music market. It's almost an appliance at this point. The amount of guitars sold and never touched again is huge. That to me isn't success. Unless you are a shareholder. Those planks of wood have no value as a guitar if they aren't used and cherished for their intended purpose (playing). The sale numbers don't show directly if the guitars are good or not as guitars. They maybe have recognizable shapes, great colors but that is far from what makes a great guitar to a guitar player.

These companies used to be awesome. Now they survive on legacy. The innovation and passion is gone. The moment management meddles with the vision and the original purpose of the company it's over. They are a company, maybe a profitable one at that too but not a guitar/music company.

The financial market is the (free) market. It's an institution with immense power not an ideal. 

I don't have a hatebone for AVID specifically. I just believe they are hurting the composer/music artist industry. Video and Audio Post are not the same industries as music composition/production. Maybe their antics work totally fine at the scale of post production studios but for artists? No.

Sibelius isn't needed at a scale of post production, and that acquisition affects negatively a lot of people including me. A really heavy user of Sibelius. The software isn't better that it used to be before acquisition. 

Discussing through forum posts is hard so please don't assume the wrong stuff about me. 

And yes I totally agree, internet isn't reality but enough of that crazy internet outrage and it seeps into the real world. (see U.S. politics 2015-202x | no opinions on that just pointing out facts)

I really don't want to derail this thread any further.


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## cqd (Apr 29, 2022)

Came across this earlier and said I'd post it here for the three people still using Pro tools..
Looks fairly powerful..


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 29, 2022)

SO glad I don't own this.

My decision 15 years ago to not use PT, and instead learn Cubase and later Studio One, turned out the be one of the best professional decisions I ever made.

AVID can take a long walk off a short pier, hope their market share falls even more 

(It probably won't, because of industry legacy presence (understandable) and fanboyism (dumb))


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 29, 2022)

rgames said:


> We'll see what happens with Avid. As I mentioned, there was equal outrage on the internet when Adobe went subscription. People seem to have voted overwhelmingly in favor of keeping them in business. They have every right to do so.


Ehh... more like Adobe _already_ had the creative/visual design market cornered, and saw a mathematically simple way to make more money.

With PT, I'm not _as_ convinced it won't hurt them, although it probably won't just because of the legacy users.


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## gsilbers (Apr 29, 2022)

blinkofani said:


> It has been mentioned that some people fear that one day even perpetual renewal will disappear. If that ever happens, my biggest fear is that all the free content that Avid gives right now to entice people to go sub won’t be free anymore. Imagine you’ve used tons of that content in numerous projects while it was given with your sub and then a month comes along where Avid stops including it in your sub(because everybody has to be on a sub at that point, so not an incentive anymore). What do you do? Render years-long of plugins to audio if you want your project to sound ok or pay up to continue to have access to that content?
> The glass is rarely half-full with Avid…



Thats one main issue with all of this. That Avid lost sort of credibility and created some very unstable future for its users and semi users. 

Some seem unnafected but others might be seeing the start of the end of perpetual. Once Apple does another major upgrade, maybe at the time of dropping intel all together, i think that would be the time when Pro tools will end up being perpetual and by then Avid might be betting perpetual users will see the newer version of pro tools much cooler that they'll gladly pay $1000 a year for it. 

Once PT 9 came around without hardware a lot of poeple jump out of their hardware inmediatly and from then on its been a clusterfuk of odd updates and product variations andeven by year with pro tools 2018 still being the latest one in 2019 or something like that. 

I like pro tools. The DAW is fine imo. I like many things about it and use it for post constantly. But since PT 9 its been hard to take avid seriously as a company and always have second thoughts about upgrading or commiting fully.


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## gsilbers (Apr 29, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> Ehh... more like Adobe _already_ had the creative/visual design market cornered, and saw a mathematically simple way to make more money.
> 
> With PT, I'm not _as_ convinced it won't hurt them, although it probably won't just because of the legacy users.


I agree. Maybe back in the golden age of pro tools 5-8 avid decided to do sub only for the non hardware version PT 9+ then maybe. But since then Logic, cubase gained a lot of users and abelton live exploded. along with FL studio, studio one etc. 

If Avid owned somehting like splice. Or SFX like BOOM or something a long the lines of additional value to a subcirption, speciallly that expensive. then it would make sense and be like adobe. 
Fort hat price, avid would need to also include their video editor AND the other things imo.


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## PaulieDC (Apr 29, 2022)

I'm still trying to figure out why so many pro Cubase users (making money scoring) also have Pro Tools sync'd up for the "output". I think. Is that to make it compatible with... um... actually, I don't even know what question to ask!


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## olvra (Apr 29, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> I'm still trying to figure out why so many pro Cubase users (making money scoring) also have Pro Tools sync'd up for the "output".


Deliverables


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## Jeremy Gillam (Apr 29, 2022)

robgb said:


> Apparently you've never used Reaper?


I have tried and failed to find the functionality I described in Reaper. The default view is not like Pro Tools. If it’s there, it wasn’t intuitive to me. Perhaps I’ll look at it again at some point. I can see why people dig Reaper, but using more “commercial” software is more compatible with my hopes and dreams. Pretty happy with Cubase for now, despite my gripes.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 29, 2022)

I have to say, as a Windows user, I find it really annoying how software developers - in this case, primarily DAWs and effects programs - have to spend so much of their time fixing their programs to work with Apple upgrades. Think about all the time they would have to make new features or fix old bugs if they weren't having to keep up with the constantly changing Apple architecture. Seriously, it kind of p*sses me off. I mean, I'm still using programs from 2006 on Windows 10 without a problem. Can't do that in Apple. 

I really think the main reason for the subscription model is because of this. You can't really charge your users for "new" versions that are primarily to make it work on updated computers. Well, you can, but most won't upgrade. But if you are spending all your time trying to make the product continue to work every time the OS changes, you need a steady flow of income. Subscription payments are regular and provide this. 

Okay, rant over. I really didn't mind paying $99/year to keep my ProTools updated. It's more than I pay for Cubase because I take advantage of the discounts/grace period upgrades, but for me it was worth it. But now they require the support portion they used to make optional. And it seems it is not changed really for perpetual license holders who have continued to pay their annual fee. 

I look at my account and it is the same as two years ago when they first talked about making the service portion mandatory. So I'm not quite sure what we are all getting up in arms about now. I don't really care what they want to call it. It doesn't look like there are any actual changes? Are there less tracks for Vanilla PT? Um, I mean PT Studio?


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## Michael Antrum (Apr 30, 2022)

The thing is with Adobe, is that they bought out most of their competitors, and became so dominant in their market that everyone needed to be compatible in their sector. In short, they had the position in the market where they could impose a rental model on the market and most people would just have to suck it up, like it or not.

We are about to find out if Avid has a similarly strong position in the market - I suspect they might be, but along the way they will alienate large sections of the student/hobbyist market who will use other software, which may herald potential issues further down the Road. Remember Quark Xpress ?

The question is, is that if a large chunk of the hobbyist market goes elsewhere (and I suspect it is far larger than the professional market) Avid will have to find that revenue from elsewhere, or their existing user base.

As of their decision to go subscription only....it's no surprise at all - it's why many people don't trust those who offer subscriptions. It starts out as a choice - permanent or subscription, and then the permanent option is later removed.


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## charlieclouser (Apr 30, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> I'm still trying to figure out why so many pro Cubase users (making money scoring) also have Pro Tools sync'd up for the "output". I think. Is that to make it compatible with... um... actually, I don't even know what question to ask!


Although I'm a Logic and not a Cubase user, I too have ProTools on a second machine to capture the output of my main DAW in real time - and I don't rely on PT for video playback as some do, I use VideoSync on a third machine for that. Is this an expensive solution? Very. Is it flexible? Massively. Is it reliable? Rock-freaking-solid.

And I don't even deliver an actual ProTools session to the dub stage. I only give them the BWAVs that PT captures. I don't use any plugins or do any mixing of any kind on the PT side, I basically use it as a high-track-count multitrack recorder, much like a JoeCo BlackBox or a Cymatic or something. So why go through all the expense, besides the fact that I've used it for about 30 years and have become very accustomed to it?

• I've had lots of recorders, and PT is by a large margin the most reliable, stable, and precise device for recording audio that I've used. More than 25 years ago I was slaving the biggest rigs they made to a pair of Studer analog 24-track machines using a VSD and SMPTE Slave Driver, and it worked with absolute precision and reliability in the era when other digital systems were struggling to even exist. What other choices were there back then in the days before native audio? Ensoniq Paris? Hybrid Arts SMPTE Track? (cue laughter). Even running on a Quadra 950 with a 13-slot NuBus expansion chassis, ProTools gave us far fewer problems than the super-expensive TimeLine MicroLynx or Adams-Smith synchronizers we used to lock the two Studer machines together. (One of our MicroLynx units wound up at the bottom of a swimming pool for its crimes..)

But ProTools just worked. And it continues to do so. It doesn't do weird stuff, throw audio permanently out of sync, or have a brain fart when it sees 23.976 timecode. You can record audio into it while manually vari-speeding the analog machine, then play back on internal sync and what happens is exactly what you expect would happen. This was true 25 years ago and it's still true today. PT isn't the world standard because people are too dumb or too lazy to learn Reaper or Nuendo, I can guarantee that. 

• I don't send my actual PT sessions to the dub stage because I don't even need to. The BWAV files PT creates drop into the timeline of the PT sessions on the stage and can auto-spot to exactly the correct point in time, down to a single sample, and believe me we've checked! Since we're not exchanging sessions, it doesn't matter what version of PT I'm using vs what version is on the stage. For years I stayed on PT6 running HD hardware on a G5 because it just kept working, even as the rigs on the stage were PT9 or whatever, and although that rig is mothballed in my closet, it still boots and runs and loads sessions from 15 years ago just fine. I'm still on PT11 and I can exchange my audio with the stage and my music editor no matter what version they're on.

• Could I just bounce my stems in Logic instead of real-time recording to PT? Sure. But that actually takes longer! It takes me exactly three minutes to print a three-minute cue with 64 tracks of stems. Plus I can hear if Logic is doing anything weird during the print and correct it right then, I don't need to check my stems after the fact.

• The simplicity, universality, and "dumbness" of PT is one of its strengths. I could rock up to a studio in London or Capetown and if I can find a PT rig to rent I can bung my files into it and be working in minutes. No "I forgot to copy my custom key commands to my USB stick" or other crap. Anyone who's ever tried to bring a Logic or Cubase session from their home rig to a different studio knows how many loose ends there can be - and PT suffers from these issues the least, by far. If I tried to deliver a Logic Project as my final deliverable I'd be run out of town on a rail. My music editor could probably deal with it, given enough time, but I'd have to swear him to secrecy because if the post supervisors ever heard that I was trying to cut corners like that they'd laugh me off the stage! Making life harder for the production just to save a few bucks on my end is not the way of the Jedi. 

• Whenever I need to record audio outside my studio, PT is the only choice, for the reasons stated above (only in reverse). I can bring a handful of BWAVs of my mockup (and maybe an audio bounce of the click) and I don't even need to build a tempo map in PT if there's no time. Just drop my audio into their empty session template and go. I know that I can then import the record session, with all of its edits and comps, into my rig and continue. If the recording went smoothly I can consolidate my audio before bringing it home and then I don't even need the PT session file from the recording date. Drop the audio into my PT session template and get to work. Then I can edit and pre-mix the recordings in PT and bounce them across to Logic to integrate into my mockup projects and continue, keeping the raw PT record sessions in case I want to go back and fiddle with them and re-bounce. It's just a great way to work, maximum flexibility and minimum clutter in my main DAW.

• The precision and accuracy of PT is still beyond other "music" DAWs that have bars+beats at the core of their engine. Everything in PT happens on a timeline that's per-sample at all times, not 960ppq or whatever, and when I'm doing stuff like mixing multi-track drum recordings for Hammers, where I need to edit, layer, process, and combine multiple mic signals, I need to nudge things by one sample at a time at 96k with confidence that things will go where I put them and stay there. There's no "averaging" of waveform displays when you get zoomed in - you can see exactly what it's doing and rely on it. Maybe Nuendo can do some of this, but I've literally never seen anyone who uses Nuendo in all my travels, and I've travelled a bit.

• Although not directly relevant to delivering score stems to the stage, another aspect where PT is still way out in front is Beat Detective and manual editing of multitrack stuff. When you do want to edit the timing multi-mic recordings, Flex Time or Flex Audio or whatever will absolutely not do the trick. The overheads may get Flexed slightly differently to the ambient mics or whatever, and you know what it sounds like when that happens? Absolute phase-y ass. Time-stretching rhythmic audio is fine when dealing with a single stereo pair, and I do that every day in Ableton, but go beyond stereo and things get squidgey and phase-y. I've been using Beat Detective for decades, and to this day there is not a better or more precise rhythm correction process. It does look a little crude, and it's basically just automating what we used to do before it existed back in the dark days of manually chopping and moving 16-track drum recordings, but it's doing it with a supreme level of precision and repeatability. 

• Dealing with multiple mics, for which the audio on some tracks is actually behind the grid due to time-of-flight of the audio getting from the drums to the mics, means that if you Beat Detective the audio across all tracks identically, you'll wind up with the farther mics having their audio cuts occur before the hits by varying amounts depending on how far behind the close mics they are. So with a bit of analysis you can go deep and slide the farther mics earlier in time before doing the Beat Detective-ing, do the thing, and then slide them back to their original position - and it works perfectly down to the sample. The resulting cuts and fades will be appropriately positioned relative to the attack transients across all tracks, even though they'll be staggered on the timeline (as they should be). Bounce out some of the multi-track drum loops in Hammers and check (they've all been Beat Detective-ed to 100%). It's frikkin' black magic. There's literally no other way to do it right, even 20 years on. People (me included) pay $850 for Melodyne, and it has a single-mission feature set, so compared to that PT is a steal. (The low price of Logic is deceptive and taints our opinion of how much a pro DAW "should" cost - but of course this is offset by the luxury pricing of Apple hardware.)

So, like many, I'm not thrilled at Avid's move to a subscription model, but I'm as grandfathered in as you can get in terms of perpetual licenses, so no biggie there. Even so, I'll have to stay on a support plan in order to get updates, which is basically the same as being on subscription - EXCEPT: I can keep using the product even after my support plan expires, as opposed to a subscriber for whom the program just won't launch once the subscription expires. (Still not sure whether you can start+stop the support plan without penalties or being thrown off the bus, but I will check.) 

Even if they said "Tough tacos, subscribe or die." I'd still do the ol' *sigh, add to cart* thing and get on with my work. It's just too good a tool for me not to have. Although I don't need it every single day, when I do need it, nothing but ProTools will do the job.


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## cqd (Apr 30, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> I have to say, as a Windows user, I find it really annoying how software developers - in this case, primarily DAWs and effects programs - have to spend so much of their time fixing their programs to work with Apple upgrades. Think about all the time they would have to make new features or fix old bugs if they weren't having to keep up with the constantly changing Apple architecture. Seriously, it kind of p*sses me off. I mean, I'm still using programs from 2006 on Windows 10 without a problem. Can't do that in Apple.
> 
> I really think the main reason for the subscription model is because of this. You can't really charge your users for "new" versions that are primarily to make it work on updated computers. Well, you can, but most won't upgrade. But if you are spending all your time trying to make the product continue to work every time the OS changes, you need a steady flow of income. Subscription payments are regular and provide this.
> 
> ...


This!...
Imagine how good pro tools would be if every six months they didn't have to work on getting it compatible for monterrey 2.o..


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## PaulieDC (Apr 30, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Although I'm a Logic and not a Cubase user, I too have ProTools on a second machine to capture the output of my main DAW in real time - and I don't rely on PT for video playback as some do, I use VideoSync on a third machine for that. Is this an expensive solution? Very. Is it flexible? Massively. Is it reliable? Rock-freaking-solid.
> 
> And I don't even deliver an actual ProTools session to the dub stage. I only give them the BWAVs that PT captures. I don't use any plugins or do any mixing of any kind on the PT side, I basically use it as a high-track-count multitrack recorder, much like a JoeCo BlackBox or a Cymatic or something. So why go through all the expense, besides the fact that I've used it for about 30 years and have become very accustomed to it?
> 
> ...


What an absolutely phenomenal synopsis, this one is going in my production notebook. Thank you for taking the time to write all of this out! To say you fully answered my question is an understatement, lol. And you also made me feel a lot better about a purchase that I thought was a mistake: last year when I was taking the courses at Berklee for a Live Sound and Mixing certificate, I went ahead and bought Pro Tools at the student price, and wondering all this time if I wasted my money. Clearly I did NOT, even though I don’t need it right now.Eventually I will, and one of the reasons I went for it is the EDU license remains fully usable for life. Seriously, this took quite some time for you to write and I REALLY appreciate it.


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2022)

Jeremy Gillam said:


> I can see why people dig Reaper, but using more “commercial” software is more compatible with my hopes and dreams.


Not sure what you're saying here. There's nothing non-"commercial" (aka professional?) about Reaper. I'm sorry you weren't able to wrap your head around it. No single DAW is for everyone.


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## Jimbo 88 (Apr 30, 2022)

Ok so I'm not scoring much of anything to picture these days, but in the past i was churning out underscores for cable TV at an un-godly rate. My clients all mix(ed) in protools. I would bounce down 6-8 stereo stems and then generate an OMF of those stems. The OMFs would load and drop right into place in a Protools session as long as I had the correct SYMPTE offset. I always included a 2 beep as a safety precaution. Worked very well.

Everyone has there own way of working and I only offer this up as an alternative for composers who feel they need to have Protools, but really don't want it.


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 30, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> I have to say, as a Windows user, I find it really annoying how software developers - in this case, primarily DAWs and effects programs - have to spend so much of their time fixing their programs to work with Apple upgrades. Think about all the time they would have to make new features or fix old bugs if they weren't having to keep up with the constantly changing Apple architecture. Seriously, it kind of p*sses me off. I mean, I'm still using programs from 2006 on Windows 10 without a problem. Can't do that in Apple.
> 
> I really think the main reason for the subscription model is because of this. You can't really charge your users for "new" versions that are primarily to make it work on updated computers. Well, you can, but most won't upgrade. But if you are spending all your time trying to make the product continue to work every time the OS changes, you need a steady flow of income. Subscription payments are regular and provide this.
> 
> ...


I don't think the outrage is so much about anything changing in the software, more just against the general idea that you are no longer 'allowed' to own whatever version of the software you use to make your living in the world.

The lack of even being given the option is the real slap in the face/salt in the wound.

This 'subscription-mania' phenomenon has turned out to be quite the ideological contagion, and by now the body politic of software devs are growing feverish...

I suspect they will alienate a lot more users than they predicted.

FWIW I did jump on the Presonus Sphere subscription with S1v5, because I did the math and it made sense with all the extras they throw in (Notion among them), after owning the previous version outright.

But I would likely never subscribe to a sample library service, the thought of everything that could go wrong with that can of worms makes me cringe.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 30, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> I don't think the outrage is so much about anything changing in the software, more just against the general idea that you are no longer 'allowed' to own whatever version of the software you use to make your living in the world.
> 
> The lack of even being given the option is the real slap in the face/salt in the wound.
> 
> ...


My thing is this change happened about 2 years ago. There were multiple threads complaining about it at the time. I bought 4 years worth of perpetual licenses because of it. And? It is a problem, but not as bad as it was. It looks like they fixed some of the continue perpetual vs have to change to subscription, which initially they were going to make mandatory. It was "when your perpetual runs out, we will allow you to change it to a subscription!" Now it seems if you own it, you can still update it. And if you let it lapse, you just have to pay more. Not great. But better than mandatory subscription. 

However, for newbies to PT, I think this may cause less interest in PT as a DAW, especially when you can get Reaper for free (/s).


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## gsilbers (Apr 30, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> I have to say, as a Windows user, I find it really annoying how software developers - in this case, primarily DAWs and effects programs - have to spend so much of their time fixing their programs to work with Apple upgrades. Think about all the time they would have to make new features or fix old bugs if they weren't having to keep up with the constantly changing Apple architecture. Seriously, it kind of p*sses me off. I mean, I'm still using programs from 2006 on Windows 10 without a problem. Can't do that in Apple.
> 
> I really think the main reason for the subscription model is because of this. You can't really charge your users for "new" versions that are primarily to make it work on updated computers. Well, you can, but most won't upgrade. But if you are spending all your time trying to make the product continue to work every time the OS changes, you need a steady flow of income. Subscription payments are regular and provide this.
> 
> ...



Its a good point on the apple side changing so much and lack of older compatibility that chnages some companies biz models. But in this case imo, the solution would be to offer more for the sub. Avid is banking on one daw while adobe has the cloud which contain digital assets, other good apps etc. And if pro tools was more used then poeple woudlnt mind paying for the upgrades once they need them, it will still generate enough revenue.

The issue is not whats happening today with this news. Its that eventually your perpetual licesne will not work. Avid is slowling going to this model. This is step one. No more new perpetual license and whats out there as retail stock is the last licenses. Step two, once apple changes again, they will just cut the perpetual update and move everyone to yearly subscription. so that $99 for this update is no issue. Next time it will be $99 a month for those who use ultimate version.

And many here like pro tools. The issue isnt if it sucks or better than other daw. Its Avid's ceo pour decision choices that will affect us as users. There is no real reason to use pro tools for music if competition is so good so allowing sub made it a nice way to check it out if anyone would like to buy it. And post studios are glued to pro tools thanks to industry standards theyve built and have a strong hold. And avid has taken too much advantage of this imo and itll come back em in the ass. So pro tools is the most hated daw thanks to avid business practices.
Which could mean going bankrupt. Or the CEO being fired and once again theres more confusing upgrades.
Its the lack of trust on avid.


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## jbuhler (Apr 30, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> Its Avid's ceo pour decision choices that will affect us as users.


It’s not really a poor choice by the ceo if it’s costing you more or you don’t like it. It’s only a poor choice if it negatively impacts Avid’s business long term. That part isn’t yet clear. Historically it’s true if you make entry costs too high you will find the next generation of users have made somebody else’s products standard. That’s a danger but as I read the comments in this it’s not clear that’s where things are headed.


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## gsilbers (Apr 30, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> It’s not really a poor choice by the ceo if it’s costing you more or you don’t like it. It’s only a poor choice if it negatively impacts Avid’s business long term. That part isn’t yet clear. Historically it’s true if you make entry costs too high you will find the next generation of users have made somebody else’s products standard. That’s a danger but as I read the comments in this it’s not clear that’s where things are headed.


Hard to predict the future of course. But imo thinking that sub only work with current users (in the music side) and also atract new users is to me a wrong desition. Music producers rather buy at that point if theyll continue with music if theres a good alternative.
The CEO is just basing his strategy on adobes (and other big companies strategies. Which again, if pro tools had digital assets, a bigger community and also provided avid nle editors than id say hey, thats an interesting choice. But avids strategy seems its based on a small bubble in burbank where pro tools is king. So imo its a poor choice.
Its been a poor choices since theyve drop the hardware and complicated stuff while uad was successful. Its been poor choices dropping old hardware and forcing poeple to buy again new hardware. its been poor choices not focusing on the community while you see ableton and cubase thrive with videos, artists, social media etc. Its been poor choice dropping rtas for aax when the oposite would have been better since there where a lot more rtas developers. And its now a poor choice trying to force people into sub only when the status quo was actaully working pretty well for them. And where are we now. with a ceo thats primary a marketing guy trying to chnage things in a landscape he doesnt seem to understand.
The ceo is now just banking that all those subcribers growth from the pandemic will change things and more poeple will be added into the sub.

As you can see the stock vs release its clearly seen that pro tools 6-8 where the golden age of pro tools and avid editor. And during the pandemic subs probably added a lot of new users which if you didnt know that poeple where stuck at home you'd think everyone wants subs. So who knows. ill be seeing the stock how it goes with this new sub only thing. My random guess is that a lot of gen x and boomers where stuck at home and they mostly play guitars thus prot tools w a sub made sense. To me its just wierd that the stock went up and they decide to change things when it was working for them.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Apr 30, 2022)

robgb said:


> Not sure what you're saying here. There's nothing non-"commercial" (aka professional?) about Reaper. I'm sorry you weren't able to wrap your head around it. No single DAW is for everyone.


I want to make the various aspects of collaboration easier in the future by using tools that are more widely used in the industry. I don't mean Reaper isn't professional. Like I said it seems interesting and I might give it another look.


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## gsilbers (Apr 30, 2022)

ok, i just saw LUNA from UAD.. and that seems like a good competitor for protools if uad plays its cards right in the music world. 

Nuendo seems a very good alternative but i still have to figure it out. Cubase users probably would feel more at home.


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## jbuhler (Apr 30, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> Hard to predict the future of course. But imo thinking that sub only work with current users (in the music side) and also atract new users is to me a wrong desition. Music producers rather buy at that point if theyll continue with music if theres a good alternative.
> The CEO is just basing his strategy on adobes (and other big companies strategies. Which again, if pro tools had digital assets, a bigger community and also provided avid nle editors than id say hey, thats an interesting choice. But avids strategy seems its based on a small bubble in burbank where pro tools is king. So imo its a poor choice.
> Its been a poor choices since theyve drop the hardware and complicated stuff while uad was successful. Its been poor choices dropping old hardware and forcing poeple to buy again new hardware. its been poor choices not focusing on the community while you see ableton and cubase thrive with videos, artists, social media etc. Its been poor choice dropping rtas for aax when the oposite would have been better since there where a lot more rtas developers. And its now a poor choice trying to force people into sub only when the status quo was actaully working pretty well for them. And where are we now. with a ceo thats primary a marketing guy trying to chnage things in a landscape he doesnt seem to understand.
> The ceo is now just banking that all those subcribers growth from the pandemic will change things and more poeple will be added into the sub.
> ...


Music is largely a small proprietor business with unpredictable revenue streams which is why the business side tends to prefer purchases. The big houses with steady revenue streams likely prefer subscriptions, or at least don’t mind them, even if the price is steep. Insofar as a steep subscription price creates barriers to entry, they may tacitly encourage them. But a high subscription cost forces those entering the business to look for alternative products, creating a market opportunity for any lower priced alternatives. That’s a real risk. The hobbyist and entry markets like subscriptions if the monthly cost is low enough. But they are also a group with generally higher support costs, so that will eat at margins. I dislike subscriptions myself and pretty much all forms of credit but I don’t see what Avid is doing here as a losing bet in the medium term. (It would be interesting to know who outside professionals and aspirational professionals has been getting ProTools subscriptions.)


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## charlieclouser (Apr 30, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> What an absolutely phenomenal synopsis, this one is going in my production notebook. Thank you for taking the time to write all of this out! To say you fully answered my question is an understatement, lol. And you also made me feel a lot better about a purchase that I thought was a mistake: last year when I was taking the courses at Berklee for a Live Sound and Mixing certificate, I went ahead and bought Pro Tools at the student price, and wondering all this time if I wasted my money. Clearly I did NOT, even though I don’t need it right now.Eventually I will, and one of the reasons I went for it is the EDU license remains fully usable for life. Seriously, this took quite some time for you to write and I REALLY appreciate it.


Yeah, there's plenty to be annoyed about with Avid's handling of PT licenses, subscriptions, support plans, M1 compatibility, etc.... but behind all that is an absolutely outstanding product that has no real competition for many use cases.

It's kind of like loving the Porsche 911, knowing it's the only car for you, and buying a new one every three years - but hating the pretentious douchebags at the dealership who always want to up-sell you pre-paid service plans and rake you over the coals on your trade-in. Some people just want to go into the dealership every three years, toss the keys to the old one on the table, and drive off in this year's model, same color, same options, in as little time as possible. "Yeah, yeah, I've done this before, I'll take three years of pre-paid service, no extended warranty, no tire insurance plan, can we just get this done as quickly as possible please?"

But in between those agonizing visits to the dealership there's three years of awesome driving. (More if you don't mind being a little behind the curve on the latest upgrades to the sport suspension or whatever.)

So if you focus on the driving experience and not the wankers at the dealership, PT is an awesome ride!

I gotta say, in 25+ years PT has never let me down, mangled a session, chewed up my regions, etc., even with absolutely bonkers sessions with tens of thousands of regions and crossfades. Some of the Hammers PT record+edit sessions were 6-8 *hours* long on the PT timeline! We'd do one drum type per day, with all of the single hits and loops in the same PT session, and I did all of the processing, mixing, Beat Detective, and editing in that same session (well, a backup copy of course), and it just kept chugging along without complaint. Running PTv11 natively on a 6-core Mac Pro cylinder, HDnative Thunderbolt box, receiving audio via MADI and recording to a Samsung T5 literally all day long without a break - no problem. Doing Beat Detective across 8-track slabs for 8 x 4-bar loops x 5 tempo groups x 2 passes x cuts on every 16th note = 40,960 edits across a tempo map that encompassed 5 tempi and then repeated - and that's just for the loops, the single hits lived in the same PT session and lasted for hours and hours.

Hell, 20 years ago I tracked Helmet to tape at East-West (back when it was called Cello), then captured from tape at 96k with 16 drum mics + 6 triggers (recorded the trigger outputs as audio, neat trick) on the master reel, and bass direct+amp, guitar with 2 mics, ref vocal and click from the slave reel, in a single pass on a PT HD3 rig with 3x 192 interfaces running on a G5 no problem no sweat. We recorded three takes each for 12 songs to tape, dumped into PT, and then I brought it all home and comped the three takes into a single final, then Beat Detective-d the drums (using the audio tracks from the triggers as my detection source for supreme accuracy), consolidated the files, and THEN I could get to work overdubbing for two months.

All of that on a G5, recording to spinning hard drives, since SSDs hadn't even been invented yet! Twenty years ago! And that kind of stuff was (and is) just another day at the office for PT. Didn't even break a sweat.

So when I'm printing 64 tracks of stems to HD Native via MADI, recording to the boot drive (!!!) on a ten-year old rig, I reckon PT is just laughing at me at how little of a problem it is.


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2022)

Jeremy Gillam said:


> I want to make the various aspects of collaboration easier in the future by using tools that are more widely used in the industry. I don't mean Reaper isn't professional. Like I said it seems interesting and I might give it another look.


Which industry? The gaming sound design industry LOVES Reaper. I imagine others will catch on soon.


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## fakemaxwell (Apr 30, 2022)

timprebble said:


> Any examples of feature films mixed in Reaper or S1? Why is that?


I'm a complete nobody, but I've mixed multiple features in 5.1 and 7.1 in Reaper. So it's at least possible! No Atmos yet but...soon, hopefully. You're right that it always depends on what the rest of the team is doing, nobody is going to change everything from PT on a whim.


charlieclouser said:


> I could rock up to a studio in London or Capetown and if I can find a PT rig to rent I can bung my files into it and be working in minutes.


You can put an entire portable installation of Reaper along with all your plugins onto a stick (or the cloud) and work from anywhere without having to adjust an install in another studio or whatever. Sidesteps a lot of those issues. 

I'm only using Reaper as an example because its what I'm most familiar. Pretty surprised you haven't had any issues with PT! Lucky duck. I remember 12.5 I wanted to throw everything out of my window and move to a monastery. You still can't run video in PT on Windows without installing the decrepit QuickTime 7, even though Avid made a whole to-do about writing their own superior video engine...


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## Jeremy Gillam (Apr 30, 2022)

robgb said:


> Which industry? The gaming sound design industry LOVES Reaper. I imagine others will catch on soon.


Like you I'm also a writer. Hoping they'll let me do the music too when we sell a screenplay.


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## charlieclouser (Apr 30, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> You still can't run video in PT on Windows without installing the decrepit QuickTime 7, even though Avid made a whole to-do about writing their own superior video engine...


Never tried to run video in PT in all my years, although they're using PT Satellite Link or whatever it's called for video on a lot of the dub stages I'm on. I run video on a separate Mac Mini using VideoSync (formerly called VideoSlave) for many years, before that I used VirtualVTR for many years (similar concept but now outdated software). 

For a minute I just used a second copy of Logic on my video machine to host video playback, which works just fine but doesn't have the video-specific features of VideoSync or even VirtualVTR, like playlists that can hold multiple reels of the film as separate files and automatically play the correct one in response to incoming timecode at hour 1 for reel 1, hour 2 for reel 2, etc.

Early in the development of VideoSync (which I was involved in), when I first found Florian, his day job was riding herd on the fleet of aging Mac G5 machines with Kona video cards running VirtualVTR at a dub stage in Germany, so he knew exactly why I loved / hated VirtualVTR and was hoping for a modern replacement.

I haven't tried it, but it's probably possible to use Reaper on a second machine solely as a video playback engine, similar to how I used Logic that way in a pinch, but of course with the same caveats mentioned above.

I know you can do a portable install of Reaper and leave it in the cloud or a stick or whatever, but I'm not going to be the guy who asks, "Hey, is it cool if I install this software on your machine?" Prob not gonna fly on most dub stages... but if you specify that you need them to wheel in another PT rig it's no problem.

When I think back to any hair-pulling issues we had back in the analog tape-vs-PT era, it was ALWAYS pilot error or misbehaving non-PT gear. The MicroLynx not locking to black burst when PT was, incorrectly set frame rates, etc. That's why the MicroLynx wound up at the bottom of the swimming pool!


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## fakemaxwell (Apr 30, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> I know you can do a portable install of Reaper and leave it in the cloud or a stick or whatever, but I'm not going to be the guy who asks, "Hey, is it cool if I install this software on your machine?" Prob not gonna fly on most dub stages... but if you specify that you need them to wheel in another PT rig it's no problem.


Ah that's what I mean! No installation necessary, that's what makes it portable. 

The video satellite stuff is pretty nice, I think the only thing that can technically compete with that right now is Resolve. Their audio capabilities look alright on paper but I haven't used it yet, although I've been asked in a hypothetical. I do wish VideoSync would come out with a Windows version...their in-DAW plugin makes a big difference compared to other options.


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## charlieclouser (Apr 30, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> Ah that's what I mean! No installation necessary, that's what makes it portable.
> 
> The video satellite stuff is pretty nice, I think the only thing that can technically compete with that right now is Resolve. Their audio capabilities look alright on paper but I haven't used it yet, although I've been asked in a hypothetical. I do wish VideoSync would come out with a Windows version...their in-DAW plugin makes a big difference compared to other options.


Ah, okay I was mis-interpreting "portable" in terms of Reaper. Still, in the rooms and workflows I deal with it's probably not an option. Doesn't matter though, PT is always there and it always works so I'm good.

I too wish a lot of things from BlackMagic. Does Resolve slave to incoming MTC? That would make me curious enough to download it, even though I have no need for video editing or typical post applications.

But most of all I wish their Fairlight consoles would work with our DAWs, either with their own control surface profile / driver or as an MCU emulation. That hardware looks awesome. Plus then we could all have a little Fairlight hardware in our rooms! I haven't looked too deeply into them, but I'm assuming they only connect to DaVinci Resolve software, and are bricks unless you are running Resolve. But dang they look sexy.


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## cedricm (May 1, 2022)

rgames said:


> Well that’s a bummer but I always feel compelled to note that the music biz is the last holdout where professional software is *not* mostly subscription. The photo biz was the second-to-last.
> 
> In most professions, profession-specific software has been subscription for decades.


Untrue. 
You can opt for a perpetual license for Microsoft Office and PhaseOne Capture One. Just 2 examples.


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## Nimrod7 (May 1, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> I have to say, as a Windows user, I find it really annoying how software developers - in this case, primarily DAWs and effects programs - have to spend so much of their time fixing their programs to work with Apple upgrades.


In the last few years, the updates were focused on restricting access to parts of the OS (and hardware). Most of the changes were to protect the system, and our privacy from unauthorized access.
In the past any app wanted access to the OS Kernel, it could just get it (without your consent), same as getting access to camera, sensitive folders (like Documents), contacts, or accessing directly the hardware (like USB ports etc).

Restricting those led many developers to rethink their software, that's why it took time, plus the change of architecture with Apple Silicon which is a different story.

It's taking time, and yes dev's need to work to conform with those requirements, but at the end it's for our benefit. There is no way around it. We have seen what's going on with randsomware and app's are not allowed anymore to take control of the system (at least without us allowing them).


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## TomislavEP (May 1, 2022)

I was a Pro Tools user for almost a decade and was almost blindly sticking with it until version 12 came about and Avid introduced those yearly plans that also covered minor updates. I was never a fan of subscription models overall and thinking about the increased costs in the long run have turned me toward REAPER. After using REAPER for five years now as my main and pretty much the only DAW, I can say that Avid really did me a favor as I'm finding REAPER superior and better for my needs in almost every aspect. This includes a more regular update cycle and the pricing system, of course.


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## NoamL (May 1, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> A company with nothing to offer except past glory and a monopoly status in certain areas of the industry.


You heckin' said it.

Post houses and scoring stages are gonna run on what they choose but there is NO reason for us composers to run it as a DAW anymore. It costs more each year than what I paid for Logic9 ten years ago. Same with Sibelius, I love the software but do sheet music prep so occasionally that they're literally forcing me back into Finale. No issues with a sub biz model as long as it provides value but AVID is just a gigantic PITA & this is a great opportunity for Steinberg to seriously muscle into the post audio market.


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## TonalDynamics (May 1, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> My thing is this change happened about 2 years ago. There were multiple threads complaining about it at the time. I bought 4 years worth of perpetual licenses because of it. And? It is a problem, but not as bad as it was. It looks like they fixed some of the continue perpetual vs have to change to subscription, which initially they were going to make mandatory. It was "when your perpetual runs out, we will allow you to change it to a subscription!" Now it seems if you own it, you can still update it. And if you let it lapse, you just have to pay more. Not great. But better than mandatory subscription.
> 
> However, for newbies to PT, I think this may cause less interest in PT as a DAW, especially when you can get Reaper for free (/s).


Yeah I don't understand it man.

AVID seems to be a one of those companies who actively _tries_ to make their own users hate them.

I guess deep down all the true sadomasochists think everyone else is as kinky as they are, but the people don't like taking their abuse nearly as much as they like inflicting it, me thinks


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## Nimrod7 (May 2, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> Yeah I don't understand it man.
> 
> AVID seems to be a one of those companies who actively _tries_ to make their own users hate them.


I think they know very well to what market they belong. 
Probably they don't care to get the bedroom producers at all. Something that happens to products a lot, is to maintain their focus on a niche userbase and charge accordingly.

They know they can't win the bedroom producer / composer, however they won large recording studios, professional mixing engineers, and the post production world. Schools will teach Pro Tools since if you want to work in any of the above industries, you have to know how to use them. 

The amount they are charging is no problem for those industries at all. A session will cover several years.


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## AudioLoco (May 2, 2022)

Steinberg should do this for Cubase and especially Nuendo (and Apple for Logic):
Add two functiones: 

*Import PT session/Export PT session*

Just the project/arrange area not the mixer (at least not ALL the settings, maybe just fader levels?) which would be probably impossible on a software level because of the large differences of audio architecture I guess.... (?)
Audio and MIDI files position should be easy to translate.... Deliverables heaven for Cubase/Logic composers...

No OMFs needed etc...

Anybody more savvy then me knows if this could be even possible on a technical level (it's kind of OMF so I don't think too far fetched) and also on a legal level?? Is it silly to think this could be possible?


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## ed buller (May 2, 2022)

Pro-tools is in every major studio in the world. period. Rough guess....90% of engineers and producers who make 100k plus a year use it. Every single pro-mixer or engineer I know personally ( that's 50 plus people ) whether it be film,TV.....or dwindling record production ......uses it. 

AVID have absolutely nothing to worry about

best

ed


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## gsilbers (May 2, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> Steinberg should do this for Cubase and especially Nuendo (and Apple for Logic):
> Add two functiones:
> 
> *Import PT session/Export PT session*
> ...




It’s meh



AATranslator - Home Page


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## AudioLoco (May 2, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> It’s meh
> 
> 
> 
> AATranslator - Home Page


I'm aware of this, still a built in function would be much more convenient...
Have you tried this software?


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## TonalDynamics (May 2, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> I think they know very well to what market they belong.
> Probably they don't care to get the bedroom producers at all. Something that happens to products a lot, is to maintain their focus on a niche userbase and charge accordingly.
> 
> They know they can't win the bedroom producer / composer, however they won large recording studios, professional mixing engineers, and the post production world. Schools will teach Pro Tools since if you want to work in any of the above industries, you have to know how to use them.
> ...


Agreed, but this is the definition of a 'sit on your laurels' approach, milking every last drop out of your legacy and branding.

In a word, complacency.

The funny thing about is that complacency doesn't generally mark the end of a company, a movement, or a nation - but in retrospect, it nearly _always_ marks the _beginning_ of the end.

The silver lining of course is that you still have a long time to 'mend your ways' so to speak even after complacency sets in, but AVID seem to be willfully headed in the opposite direction.

Time will tell!


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## gsilbers (May 2, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> I'm aware of this, still a built in function would be much more convenient...
> Have you tried this software?



Never had ot before. Ill look into it now for nuendo/pt.


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## gsilbers (May 2, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> I think they know very well to what market they belong.
> Probably they don't care to get the bedroom producers at all. Something that happens to products a lot, is to maintain their focus on a niche userbase and charge accordingly.
> 
> They know they can't win the bedroom producer / composer, however they won large recording studios, professional mixing engineers, and the post production world. Schools will teach Pro Tools since if you want to work in any of the above industries, you have to know how to use them.
> ...


Seeing how their stock value want up a lot during the pandemic, my guess is that a lot of bedroom producers, most likley GenX and bommers who know more PT where subscribing a lot during stay at home mandates. 
Although it probably happened to every daw and tech that could be used at home. 
The entry point to try it out is relative small so maybe thats what avid is banking on. The CEO is mostly a marketing guy and his past jobs related to post industry. Used to work on tehcnicolor so my guess is that since tecnicolor was a big mastering post house for distribution and somehwere in history there was some persuation to get deliverables as pro tools only format (pt5-8 era). And therefore created the current bubble for post. 
Lets see how it goes. To me the ceo sits in a bubble in burbank thinking everyone loves PT and that its in every post studio and pro studio... but imo thats peanuts to a daw like Ableton live has since its one of the most used for bedroom producers. Hence the thing with logic and DP adding those dumb live loops features. 

Not sure how much i trust this source but seeing that several private companies are making more than avid, public company, and avid used to be the king of video post editors before adobe, we are seeing here a wierd push towards home studio market and increase revenue flow. After a few hit and misses since PT9HD came out. 
There are not that many profesional studios or post studios, most live in LA and maybe one in every small city in the usa. But there are millions of guitars players who wish to record their own thing so it could work for avid. Unless all the negative press from this unperpetual strategy makes it plunder. 






Ableton: Revenue, Competitors, Alternatives


Ableton top competitors are Audacity Team, Avid Technology and Image-Line Software and they have annual revenue of $83.2M and 574 employees.




growjo.com


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## fakemaxwell (May 2, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> I'm aware of this, still a built in function would be much more convenient...
> Have you tried this software?


I use AA translator for every post mixing job. I prefer it over the native input in PT, it's much easier and faster to batch a bunch of OMFs.

Related: what really saves my ass on big cutdown jobs (when you have a 1:30, :60, :30, :15 second versions of the same spot) is project tabs. Extremely simple to copy and paste from the main project to all the shorter versions.


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## gsilbers (May 2, 2022)

Still really wish avid does well. I like pro tools. The simplicity and robustness makes it a great tool. Specially as a standard. With non perpetual i think thatll make it harder to become a standard, maybe? With optional perpetual to me was the best thing and imo it was working. stock was up. poeple where happy, except for those semi late updates. 
Now its not only the non perpetual license, its just the mess of names and prices and upgrade paths. Re buying what you had bu in sub.. just a big mess.


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## Nimrod7 (May 2, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> Still really wish avid does well. I like pro tools. The simplicity and robustness makes it a great tool. Specially as a standard. With non perpetual i think thatll make it harder to become a standard, maybe? With optional perpetual to me was the best thing and imo it was working. stock was up. poeple where happy, except for those semi late updates.


Thinking that this is the only DAW that is subscription only?
I am not aware of any other DAW at the moment that don't offer an option to buy a perpetual license.

They are industry standard, but not among everyone,

- In post, many houses require a ProTools sessions to be delivered as well.
- In mixing large commercial projects, same story, a ProTools Session is required.
- Avid Media Composer, is the industry standard to cut Hollywood movies. Premiere, Final Cut, Davinci not have a chance to compete (well Davinci at least has the grading used in Hollywood).
- Sibelius seems to also be very dominant. Finale is close by competitor, Dorico started getting market share. I feel probably this market will be the one that will fail first from Avid's perspective.

I like Pro Tools myself, but is indeed a mess on the tiers and pricing.

You know the worst thing? I had an annual plan for Pro Tools, 2 months in I realize I need some features from the Ultimate Version (before it become Flex), and I asked them if I can upgrade and pay the difference.
Their answer was, that there is no option to upgrade the annual subscription. I have to buy another one for Ultimate, and let the one I have expire after 10 months!


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## cqd (May 2, 2022)

Haha..classic avid..

I'm considering getting a sibelius edu perpetual license soon, but apparently dorico gives it a run for its money..I kinda feel pressured into it in case they go *poof* soon..I'm leaning towards sibelius, (as a notation program beginner), but word online is maybe dorico is better now..


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## sean8877 (May 2, 2022)

Jeremy Gillam said:


> I’m right there with you. How has no other DAW realized that people might want to add a plug-in or adjust volume, pan, and sends from the main window without having to go to some BS “inspector” or mix page? Currently using Cubase but despite all it can do I get the feeling the people who make it don’t really think things through.


Adding a insert/send plugin, adjusting level and pan are all available from the main window in Cubase (left panel, clearly visible). I only go to the mix page for minimal specific activities. Maybe you're on an old version of Cubase? I've been using it since v7.0 and the default view of the main page always has these controls on the left panel plain as day.


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## chrisr (May 2, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> I'm aware of this, still a built in function would be much more convenient...
> Have you tried this software?


I've used it lots for converting aafs and pt sessions to Reaper. Works very well.


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## stargazer (May 2, 2022)

Pro Tools Ultimate user here.
I dislike subscriptions, but I’m gonna stay on my perpetual license with yearly renewal for now.
Most of my current work is composing for games, including production and mixing. 
Also doing the occasional pop/rock production/mixing.
For pure audio work, Pro Tools is rock solid, and Avid’s surfaces works great at my place.
I don’t have to worry about compatibility or session exports/imports doing remote recordings with orchestras etc either.
For composing with VI-s, I miss one or two features (”articulation” control systems like in S1 or Cubase).
I’ve used Logic since the Atari/Creator days and I also got S1, but for my workflow, syncing apps or jumping back and forth between DAWs to overdub, then edit/re-work a midi project is not an option.
I definitely prefer to stay in one application (Pro Tools for now) from composition to delivery.
In a project/scenario where I could be sure to do all midi work in (for example) S1, get approval, and then export to PT for overdubs and mix and then stay there, without going back to S1 - that would be a viable option, but I (as many others nowadays) compose, record ”real” instruments and sometimes even build a mix in the same process.
Anyway, in a few years I can see myself opting out of the renewals and staying on a reliable version of PT and macOS for certain audio work and migrating to S1 or something else as my main DAW.
For now, I won’t take the time to investigate, invest and learn a new system, with alternatives to my Avid surfaces, also adjusting to a new work-flow with its pros, cons and workarounds.


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## cqd (May 2, 2022)

Speaking of subscriptions..Soundflow looks awesome for pro tools too, but is subscription only too..bit of a sickener..


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## stargazer (May 2, 2022)

cqd said:


> Speaking of subscriptions..Soundflow looks awesome for pro tools too, but is subscription only too..bit of a sickener..


SoundFlow is great, and you can pause the sub.


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## Jeremy Gillam (May 2, 2022)

sean8877 said:


> Adding a insert/send plugin, adjusting level and pan are all available from the main window in Cubase (left panel, clearly visible). I only go to the mix page for minimal specific activities. Maybe you're on an old version of Cubase? I've been using it since v7.0 and the default view of the main page always has these controls on the left panel plain as day.


Yes, but you have to select the track first, then find whichever accordion option you need in the inspector, then open it, then make your changes. In Pro Tools you can see what's going on with all your tracks at the same time, copy a plugin to another track holding option, adjust sends, track delays, etc. without ever opening the mixer or perusing the inspector.


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## sean8877 (May 2, 2022)

Jeremy Gillam said:


> Yes, but you have to select the track first, then find whichever accordion option you need in the inspector, then open it, then make your changes. In Pro Tools you can see what's going on with all your tracks at the same time, copy a plugin to another track holding option, adjust sends, track delays, etc. without ever opening the mixer or perusing the inspector.


Dunno, I guess it's whichever workflow you're accustomed to. I don't usually need to scan all the tracks to see what plugins are on each that much so maybe that doesn't apply to my situation. The "accordian" menus don't bother me at all, I know exactly where to look for everything I need so I don't feel like I'm being slowed down by it. But horses fer courses, etc.


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## gsilbers (May 3, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> Thinking that this is the only DAW that is subscription only?
> I am not aware of any other DAW at the moment that don't offer an option to buy a perpetual license.
> 
> They are industry standard, but not among everyone,
> ...



Adobe Audition would be the other daw thats only subscription. Which seems to be avids main target competitor instead of the ones we know. 

Yes, avid does hold a big influence on post studios video side but im seeing more premiere around. But media composer would still be used for onlines and mastering. 
Deliveries with pro tools are going to chnage dramatically as the industry is shifting away from dvds and cds for deliverables and into imf and other types of "packages" where the timing of the video is very strict. to the frame.
There is plenty of legacy studio specs though that take ages to change but with pro tools chnaging so much i think studio heads are rethinking the pro tools deliverables as backwards compatitability was one main factor for PT back in the day and now its confusing as hell. 

I did read someone else had a similar issue of upgrading from PT9 and paying for ultimate to later found out within a year that he has to pay again another $1k or something like that. its crazy confusing. im surprised the ceo is a marketing guy and coudnt make it easier to understand all of this. Im having a hard time myslef. 

I just found out that regular pro tools (studio now) has surround so im a little happier. I was going to buy the ultimate perpetual which at $2500 was just too much. Pro tools studio at $600 for the perpetual stock left might not be bad except that i dont know if in 2 years avid will again pull the rug and say , no more perpetual updates for high monterrey or whatever the next os is called. 
The two year mark is important because thats the price for the subcritpion. so i either own it now for two years or sub it monthly for those random projects i get. That under those circumtances i might head over to nuendo. 
Which might get me more into cubase. Logic is another day kinda dropping the ball for me. Very slow updates and clearly aiming for ableton live/edm/hiphp crowd. 

So im still undecided if i shuold buy the perpetual studio license. Heck, i dont even know if i can buy the pro tools studio (before its called studio) and be able to update to studio w/o having to an update fee. The box says 1 year free updates. But what happens if within a year and one month avid finally releases the m1 native pro tools and now i have to pay again another update price. very confusing.


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## easyrider (May 4, 2022)

I’m tempted to get Pro Tools Perpetual EDU from third party seller but would like guarantees I can update it still rather than being forced to go SUB down the line….

If anyone knows let me know….


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## cqd (May 4, 2022)

easyrider said:


> I’m tempted to get Pro Tools Perpetual EDU from third party seller but would like guarantees I can update it still rather than being forced to go SUB down the line….
> 
> If anyone knows let me know….


You will be able to as long as your educational documents are valid(you can keep your edu sub rolling over for 99/year)..when they run out you'll be left with your last version..

I think too, that once your educational licence expires so to speak, a reinstatement should get you back to a full perpetual license with a year's updates..


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## gsilbers (May 4, 2022)

easyrider said:


> I’m tempted to get Pro Tools Perpetual EDU from third party seller but would like guarantees I can update it still rather than being forced to go SUB down the line….
> 
> If anyone knows let me know….


im on the same boat but regular perpetual. sweetwater and others allow for split payments to come about the same as the sub, but id end up buying it. Which would be cool except that im worry avid will forme to sub afterwards plus any fees.


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## cqd (May 4, 2022)

I honestly don't think avid will actually shaft perpetual users out of their licence..
That would be the end of a lot of people going any further with them..I think the reinstatement of reinstatements and the added ultimate features to regular is actually an act of benevolence to those, but the new generations of users can get used to being fncked by them..


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## KerrySmith (May 7, 2022)

If you have a perpetual with the support plan, it’s basically the same cost as the subscription, without being shut out by the subscription. (My Ultimate is still $300/yr?) I don’t like the way Avid has handled this at all, but I have 20+ years worth of Pro Tools sessions that I‘m still going back to when a track gets licensed, or I want to lift a part from an old track. So I’m stuck paying it, even if I were to switch DAWs, which I’ve been unswayed about even after really trying Logic, Cubase and Live. One thing I will throw towards the Pro Tools team - they go a long way to test and certify systems to (mostly) guarantee compatibility. But they also don’t seem to want to leave some of us behind. I’m still using my highly-modded 2009 Mac Pro because it is a beast, and I had been holding out hope for a replacement, only to see the 2019 MP be quasi-usurped by the promise of Apple Silicon shortly afterwards. So I’m still with my ‘09 and Mojave. Now, in 2022, Logic will not install new versions on that machine (it’s been a few versions actually) and Cubase 12 isn’t compatible with Mojave. Fair enough. But Avid seems to realize there are still a lot of people in my position (maybe buying the Mac Studio now, but also waiting to see the new Silicon Mac Pro) and the new Pro Tools versions still install and run on my machine. Maybe it would be smarter if they phased my system out. But then we’re still paying an annual fee… so, maybe Avis’s loyalty to an installed and hardware-dependent user base is part of what’s been holding their development back. Maybe. Part of. Hey, if they dropped Windows support, they could focus their efforts on the new ARM chips going forward and I bet we’d see a lot of progress then. But Windows users would complain, so…


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## easyrider (May 7, 2022)

KerrySmith said:


> Maybe it would be smarter if they phased my system out. But then we’re still paying an annual fee… so, maybe Avis’s loyalty to an installed and hardware-dependent user base is part of what’s been holding their development back. Maybe. Part of. Hey, if they dropped Windows support, they could focus their efforts on the new ARM chips going forward and I bet we’d see a lot of progress then. But Windows users would complain, so…


Nearly all other DAWS are M1 compatible…..Avid are lazy And milking the cash cow…..simples…


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## KerrySmith (May 8, 2022)

easyrider said:


> Nearly all other DAWS are M1 compatible…..Avid are lazy And milking the cash cow…..simples…


I don't think it's quite THAT simple (like the software...) Profiteering is likely part of it. But also also has all of it's audio hardware (and it's DSP-enabled plugins) to support. The users who just finally got their HDX cards working with the Hybrid Engine last year would likely riot if Avid suddenly said "We've got M1 Native, but had to lose the HDX support for now". It's just a different reality. UA dropped its Firewire interfaces to even get a stilted functionality from it's software. Other DAWs get to go with the "It's the IO-maker's problem to deliver drivers", and just use CoreAudio. Avid has to ensure that it's ALL working, or what's the point of being stuck with their subscription. The decisions they've made have really boxed them in compared to the MIDI-first DAWs of similar vintage.


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## Nimrod7 (May 8, 2022)

697 days ago, Apple Released the M1 developer kits to the world. 
Its long time since they first got their hands on a kit.

Avid has 1400 employees, that's an army, they are way larger than any of the other DAW companies out there. Somehow they ended up being last. 

I am a developer myself, and I migrated software through architectures multiple times, so I know what it takes to be ready, and it's fine if a company have a significant re-architecture to do, or hardware drivers to rewrite. 

The only thing they need to do is communicate. Most people don't have an issue waiting, as long as the company communicates, and inspires trust.

Instead of releasing a roadmap, with what work they did already (on those 697 days), what is pending, and an ETA which could be as abstract as Q4 2022, they have chosen instead to revamp their pricing model, and communicate that disappointing thousands of users. They didn't provide any additional value, just some crappy synths, and some functionality that other DAWs have for years. 

Their company culture is problematic at the core, or they don't care. 
They could have chosen to communicate first, then when they are ready for the silicon versions to announce it with their new pricing structure.


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## KerrySmith (May 8, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> 697 days ago, Apple Released the M1 developer kits to the world.
> Its long time since they first got their hands on a kit.
> 
> Avid has 1400 employees, that's an army, they are way larger than any of the other DAW companies out there. Somehow they ended up being last.
> ...


Agree with all of that. Their communication in general is not great. Maybe the CEO should have stayed in marketing a little longer and learned how to actually do the job. Tho Avid also has their video, network-storage, control surfaces, hardware interfaces and Sibelius divisions to account for the staffing numbers. Logic also has the Apple inside track, and Steinberg had an ARM-coded DAW in Cubasis for years already. So I always expected PT to be the last with Silicon compatibility. I did hope they'd be more verbose about it.


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## Delboy (Sep 23, 2022)

I am not sure Pro Tools or even Sibelius under perpetual - you actually own it anymore. I am fighting this with them as I write this.
Seems now every 9 months one has to re-validate your right to use the perpetual licence you thought you owned
If you are still in Edu fine (student or teachers) .. but if you have finished schooling/teaching and gone into another career or gone freelance then you will more than likely have to trade up to a full Perpetual or Full subscription basis because I am sure I read you cannot roll back nor use it if they deem you not Edu anymore - they have got you trapped. It seems they are not so forgiving when it comes to money and licencing. Cant fault their tech and product service (but guess it's fine as long as you are in a subscription model I guess) - we have never called them for PT help as my son never used it at Uni (rather a wasted investment now if being honest especially if he will never be able to use it - wish I had never bought it in the first place)

Edu Perpetual/Subscription is a big big risk so read the small print before going this route ... we are at the brink of losing all our investment of a few thousand £'s over the last 10 years with AVID as I loath having to buy 2 full licences at £500 each as they deem you (my 2 sons) not Edu anymore. They should honour the time one bought the product legitimally in the first place and not change the playing field as and when they like just to force everyone into a subscription model at the highest cost rate box that they can force you into and then rub salt into the financial wound by only managing to issue 1-2 updates a year. 

I may be wrong but this is the situation we find ourselves in at the moment - seems best to crossgrade out and go to Steinberg where it seems you do own the product.


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## easyrider (Sep 23, 2022)

If you buy an Edu Perpetual and you no longer are a teacher or student you can still use the software 

If you update plan expires then you are just stuck with the version you had before the expiration date.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 23, 2022)

easyrider said:


> If you buy an Edu Perpetual and you no longer are a teacher or student you can still use the software


But when you go to update, you are screwed, no?


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## easyrider (Sep 23, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> But when you go to update, you are screwed, no?


I think you just keep what version you had before you allowed it to expire.

I bought EDU perpetual for $266 with one year of updates…so I’ll upgrade for $99 while active…


*IMPORTANT Starting April 26, 2022: *

Pro Tools non-EDU versions 9, 10, and 11 can Get Current from resellers only
Pro Tools non-EDU versions 12 and up may purchase Get Current inside your Avid Account
Pro Tools EDU and Institution Upgrade Reinstatement/Get Current are no longer available


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## Delboy (Sep 23, 2022)

They finally agree to re-instate Perpetual PT for my son (for the next 9 months ????) as he is now a music teacher so I'm non the wiser. ... hope u r right easyrider. Guess I'll find out when Sibelius is up for renewal in November.


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## easyrider (Sep 23, 2022)

Delboy said:


> They finally agree to re-instate Perpetual PT for my son (for the next 9 months ????) as he is now a music teacher so I'm non the wiser. ... hope u r right easyrider. Guess I'll find out when Sibelius is up for renewal in November.


You don’t re-instate perpetual….it never dies….


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## dzilizzi (Sep 23, 2022)

easyrider said:


> You don’t re-instate perpetual….it never dies….


Until you update your Mac and it doesn't work anymore.


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## easyrider (Sep 23, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> Until you update your Mac and it doesn't work anymore.


Yeah….one reason I’ll never use a Mac 

Love my iPhone and iPad Air though


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## Delboy (Sep 24, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> Until you update your Mac and it doesn't work anymore.


Didnt think of that .... ah well another reason why to stop wasting my money on this company


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## dzilizzi (Sep 24, 2022)

Delboy said:


> Didnt think of that .... ah well another reason why to stop wasting my money on this company


Or to not own a Mac.


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