# Sorry composer, we blew our budget on vfx and actors



## Greg (Feb 8, 2018)

Every single movie I've worked on so far has started the conversation that way..

How do producers unanimously assume they can weasel composers into working for peanuts? Almost like they're learning it in film school: budget 101. It's like instead of bringing flowers to a first date they steal your f*cking car.


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 8, 2018)

Just curious, how many movies have you worked on?


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## Greg (Feb 8, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> Just curious, how many movies have you worked on?



About 10 with 4 features


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## Daniel James (Feb 8, 2018)

Greg said:


> Every single movie I've worked on so far has started the conversation that way..
> 
> How do producers unanimously assume they can weasel composers into working for peanuts? Almost like they're learning it in film school: budget 101. It's like instead of bringing flowers to a first date they steal your f*cking car.



Because there will always be someone who will agree to do it for nothing. I got into this debate over on Facebook the other day, the more people keep taking shit like that on for free, the more normal it becomes.....the more people will do it. 

Best you can do is figure out what is valuable to you and stick to your own value. If you are worth it people will pay.

-DJ


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 8, 2018)

It's pretty sick. I wish when I have an electrician come to my house I could tell him: "You know, I wish I could pay you, and you really deserve it, but unfortunately my entire budget went into the house renovations I just made, but it will look good on your cv."


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## Greg (Feb 8, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> It's pretty sick. I wish when I have an electrician come to my house I could tell him: "You know, I wish I could pay you, and you really deserve it, but unfortunately my entire budget went into the house renovations I just made, but it will look good on your cv."



Too bad as composers we cant twist the wires and burn their entire movie down... Or maybe we can with some constant high and low frequencies? Muahaha


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 8, 2018)

Greg said:


> Too bad as composers we cant twist the wires and burn their entire movie down... Or maybe we can with some constant high and low frequencies? Muahaha



Just do the work.


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## Daryl (Feb 9, 2018)

It's not big deal. Just say "That's a shame. Good luck with your movie." If they want you, they'll come back with some money. If they just want someone cheap or free, do you really want to be that person? There are two exceptions:

1. When you have no credits and the project is really good; something that will help your career in the long run. However, you must set a limit on how many projects you will do like this before you say "no". Remember; once you have done a movie for nothing, the same production team will never pay you on a future project. Why would they? You've already shown that you're willing to do it for nothing.

2. When it is a favour for a friend and you're trying to help their career. However, again make sure it is a "one time only" offer. Never go back for seconds.


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## R. Soul (Feb 9, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> It's pretty sick. I wish when I have an electrician come to my house I could tell him: "You know, I wish I could pay you, and you really deserve it, but unfortunately my entire budget went into the house renovations I just made, but it will look good on your cv."


I think the number of electricians who compose in the evening and dream of being full time composers, far out weight the composers who dream of becoming full time electricians. Unfortunately.


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## mikeh-375 (Feb 9, 2018)

Gents,
This sort of manipulation by producers was happening to me years ago! The fact is that the internet has devalued music and the ubiquity of the computer and people who want to compose with it has swamped the industry and buried it. I'm not moaning about this, but Daniel has got it right above, there are people willing to do work for nothing and producers know this and have no qualms about exploiting it.
I wont judge anyone who takes on work for free when starting out, because there is no other way in for a lot of people, but right there is where the exploitation is in a lot of cases and the problem of too many people trying to break in merely feeds the abuse.


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## Daryl (Feb 9, 2018)

mikeh-375 said:


> I wont judge anyone who takes on work for free when starting out, because there is no other way in for a lot of people...


Of course not, but equally anyone who has done this has no right to complain when someone undercuts them for exactly the same reason.

On this forum there are many part timers who undercut the people who compose for a living. They are perfectly entitled to do so. However, nobody should be unaware that this practice is driving a wedge in the industry, where the ordinary composer, who traditionally would have been able to make a living, will no longer be able to do so. Either you will be right at the top, in that small, elite group, or you will be right at the bottom, and either just scraping a living, or doing it as a hobby.


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## mikeh-375 (Feb 9, 2018)

Good point Daryl, which is why I wouldn't judge. One could argue that the ubiquity of the computer, the ease with which music can be created and a complete lack of any morality from some producers has democratised the compositional act, but in doing so, I think it has also diluted it creatively, and reduced it to mere parodies of itself that anyone can "write".


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## mac (Feb 9, 2018)

Why do composers think this only happens in this field? It's the same whatever the industry. We hear it constantly in web development and graphic design sector as "so-and-so's younger brother has offered to do it for free", or next to nothing. Fine, use him, watch the project fail and we'll see you again in 12 months. It's the same with tradesman, mechanics, gardeners, decorators, catering...it's just the way of things.

Yeah, it's frustrating and muddies the waters, but its not going to change, ever. Set your price and do the work that fits.


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## mikeh-375 (Feb 9, 2018)

Mac, I don't think the situation is unique to composing, and although I don't speak for the others here, I bet they don't neither - I mean, give us some credit, As this is a thread about composing, I just thought I'd stick to the topic at hand, fair enough?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 9, 2018)

Nothing new here. Producers would say the same thing to me... 25 years ago. Don’t fall for it.


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## jcrosby (Feb 9, 2018)

Greg said:


> Every single movie I've worked on so far has started the conversation that way..
> 
> How do producers unanimously assume they can weasel composers into working for peanuts? Almost like they're learning it in film school: budget 101. It's like instead of bringing flowers to a first date they steal your f*cking car.


 But in an interview they'll sound a film is 50% sound....


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## Johann F. (Feb 9, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Because there will always be someone who will agree to do it for nothing. I got into this debate over on Facebook the other day, the more people keep taking shit like that on for free, the more normal it becomes.....the more people will do it.



I get that the ones at the top calling the shots will do anything in their power to screw us, but when you have people like Richard Kraft and a horde of ass kissers _working composer_ advocating in favor of free work and normalizing the practice, you know we are *really *screwed.


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## SDCP (Feb 9, 2018)

Daryl said:


> It's not big deal. Just say "That's a shame. Good luck with your movie." If they want you, they'll come back with some money. If they just want someone cheap or free, do you really want to be that person?



I agree. I did that recently. Producer offered me nearly no money. I said "no, but good luck with your film" and said nothing else. He started to actually get nervous, and wrote a very long email explaining why he could not pay me. Again I said "OK, good luck with your film." Then he asked if he had offended me, and that the next film will have a big music budget, and hopefully I could work on that film. 

Just have the courage to say no to bad deals, and they might get the message.


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 9, 2018)

R. Soul said:


> I think the number of electricians who compose in the evening and dream of being full time composers, far out weight the composers who dream of becoming full time electricians. Unfortunately.



True. However, electricians or plumbers, seem not too unhappy, always whistling in their jobs, probably because they know an hour of whistling = $$. If I'd had to do it all over, I would get 2 years of training in one of those jobs, as a side job, very rarely these guys don't have work. Sad reality.


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## Daryl (Feb 9, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> If I'd had to do it all over, I would get 2 years of training in one of those jobs, as a side job, very rarely these guys don't have work. Sad reality.


You don't need 2 years of training. With modern technology, plumbing and electrics are easier than they've ever been. You only need a little bit of DIY skills, and Bob's your Uncle. The DIY skills is where I fall down though...


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## Daniel James (Feb 9, 2018)

Daryl said:


> You don't need 2 years of training. With modern technology, plumbing and electrics are easier than they've ever been. You only need a little bit of DIY skills, and Bob's your Uncle. The DIY skills is where I fall down though...



Hahaha with a Dad and Brother as qualified electricians and a Sister and Brother in law as qualified plumbers, I wouldn't hire someone without proper qualifications to do a job on my house. Also not training correctly as an electrician is a sure fire way to get yourself killed.

Sort of irrelevant to the point of the thread but it did make me laugh a bit xD

-DJ


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 9, 2018)

Why be so sad about money?

If you want to make money, go for the money. If you want to make music, make music.


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## Jaap (Feb 9, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> Why be so sad about money?
> 
> If you want to make money, go for the money. If you want to make music, make music.



Though I know you are trolling around, but can't resist. It's about getting paid for the work that is done. If everyone in the whole chain of the process of filmmaking is getting paid, except the composer, something is wrong (and its wrong already for a long time, not only with producers asking it to be done for free, but also composers doing it)


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## dzilizzi (Feb 9, 2018)

Has anyone ever tried "Sure I'll do it for free upfront plus 5% of the gross"?


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## Daryl (Feb 9, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Hahaha with a Dad and Brother as qualified electricians and a Sister and Brother in law as qualified plumbers, I wouldn't hire someone without proper qualifications to do a job on my house. Also not training correctly as an electrician is a sure fire way to get yourself killed.
> 
> Sort of irrelevant to the point of the thread but it did make me laugh a bit xD
> 
> -DJ


No me neither, but the actual training to get the certificate is much easier these days. For example, you probably wouldn't remember the days when piping was not even copper, but resin and had to be heated and all sorts of other crap. When my old heating system needed repairing, there was only one local plumber who had the skill to sort it out. The rest of them could only deal with copper and the lego plastic versions of pipes.


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## Daniel James (Feb 9, 2018)

Daryl said:


> No me neither, but the actual training to get the certificate is much easier these days. For example, you probably wouldn't remember the days when piping was not even copper, but resin and had to be heated and all sorts of other crap. When my old heating system needed repairing, there was only one local plumber who had the skill to sort it out. The rest of them could only deal with copper and the lego plastic versions of pipes.



I'd still put their ability considerably above "a little bit of DIY skills"

-DJ


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 9, 2018)

Jaap said:


> Though I know you are trolling around, but can't resist. It's about getting paid for the work that is done. If everyone in the whole chain of the process of filmmaking is getting paid, except the composer, something is wrong (and its wrong already for a long time, not only with producers asking it to be done for free, but also composers doing it)



So don’t work for free.


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## Greg (Feb 9, 2018)

This latest film was from Kickstarter which explains a lot. "I had tons of composers begging me to do the movie for free, but they all sucked" directors exact words. I think the best way to make it these days is to do everything you can to achieve good passive income and financial freedom. Then only do movies because you love doing it, never expecting to make a dime.


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## NoamL (Feb 9, 2018)

SDCP said:


> Then he asked if he had offended me, and that the next film will have a big music budget, and hopefully I could work on that film.



*Massive red flag!!! *You totally did the right thing!

Once one advances beyond the "I literally have no credits" stage, during which there is _maybe_ a case for working for credits... _beyond_ that stage, there are only three jobs worth taking

#1 the project is so inspiring and awesome you want to leap at the chance to score it, regardless of the working conditions

#2 they're paying you well

#3 the director or producer clearly has a future and you're "getting in on the ground floor" with them

It's up to YOU to think honestly and cynically about whether you've really stumbled upon either scenario 1 or scenario 3, for these will necessarily be rare. Are you working with the next Steven Spielberg or the next Jason Blum? Most likely not. It's exactly like @mac said: composers are not the only people who field the "oops sorry we ran out of money" speech. So do sound designers, editors, visual effects artists and others in the world of post. Odds are you ain't the ONLY corner they are seeking to cut. As a result, by the time the film gets to you, it's often a compromised product that makes a stronger impact of amateurism than anything the director or producer were seeking to communicate artistically. If the ADR is terrible, the camera work is sloppy, the film is a mess in editing, the sfx are bad, the screenplay and acting are unrescuable, etc. you're most likely looking at this director's first and last feature. Remember that their big spiel about future career opportunities is only as credible as _this film in front of you right now_. Would _you_ finance their next movie?

That is why, and maybe I'll draw some flak for saying this, I think the world of additional-scoring and even ghosting, can be more productive than working your own career up from nothing. You're going to be low paid for a while anyway but you might as well skip the shit films, right? And, just as importantly, you might as well see whether you can actually hack the pressure and responsibility of having your music slapped atop a very very expensive action scene, or real quality acting, etc.


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## SillyMidOn (Feb 10, 2018)

NoamL said:


> *Massive red flag!!! *You totally did the right thing!
> 
> Once one advances beyond the "I literally have no credits" stage, during which there is _maybe_ a case for working for credits... _beyond_ that stage, there are only three jobs worth taking
> 
> ...



Very valid points. The problem is #3 is almost impossible to call, you need Zen-like crystal ball premonition future gazing abilities.




NoamL said:


> And, just as importantly, you might as well see whether you can actually hack the pressure and responsibility of having your music slapped atop a very very expensive action scene, or real quality acting, etc.



This is a *very *good point, as it's one thing sitting in your studio and banging out music, convinced you are just as good as any of the Hollywood A-listers (and let's face it, we mostly like to delude ourselves that we are, and sure some are...) but it's quite another thing then seeing your music cut to a tv series or film or trailer that is top-notch - new levels of self-doubt and soul-searching _can_ suddenly occur   .


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## Mike Fox (Feb 10, 2018)

Excuse my language, but fuck those assclowns!


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 10, 2018)

Them: "Sorry composer, we blew our budget on vfx and actors"

Me: "You do know I dabble in VFX and acting. Here is my reel!"

Diversify, my friends.....


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## guydoingmusic (Feb 10, 2018)

Did this a couple of years back to ... raise awareness?  Actually has gotten me several paid gigs.


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 10, 2018)

guydoingmusic said:


> Did this a couple of years back to ... raise awareness?  Actually has gotten me several paid gigs.




You are *THE* man!!!


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## GtrString (Feb 11, 2018)

I cant spend time on unfunded projects. It is not really serious work.

My music may be free, but my time isnt. I offer a service, not a finished product.

My finished products are available for licensing.


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## guydoingmusic (Feb 11, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> You are *THE* man!!!


well... I mean... technically I'm a man...


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## Hannes_F (Feb 12, 2018)

dzilizzi said:


> Has anyone ever tried "Sure I'll do it for free upfront plus 5% of the gross"?


Gross is the keyword here. I did a similar thing for a few % of the profit but then they subtracted their own (and everybody's) payment first so that the profit was zero, haha. :-D


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## lux (Feb 12, 2018)

problem here is that not having a music budget (attached to other budgets) reflects a vision. I means that basically the director doesn't really feel the music as relevant in the system of values concurring to create a good movie. 

This happens sometimes at various levels. I'd say its more a matter of general philosophy than merely budgets or money.

So next question is: how much it can be of help for your career working for a director which doesn't feel music a founding element of a well done movie?


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## PeterN (Feb 12, 2018)

This goes beyond composers, also affects a whole bunch of collaborators, from designers of posters, to people who translate scripts and such. The actors have probably been screwed over so many times by now they all got agents and lawyers.

And if payment is about to come after movie released - movie better work out at the box.


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 12, 2018)

Daryl said:


> You don't need 2 years of training. With modern technology, plumbing and electrics are easier than they've ever been. You only need a little bit of DIY skills, and Bob's your Uncle. The DIY skills is where I fall down though...



Once I did some basement wiring in a ceiling electrical box which was already pretty loaded with wires. A few years later when a real electrician came across this, he kept saying while cursing every 2 words: "I don't know who did this %#[email protected]? job, but I'd sure like to give him a piece of my mind!!!", and I replied: "Yeah, me to!"

Honestly, these guys work fast and good and you have piece of mind.


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## Cowtothesky (Feb 13, 2018)

The problem is that music is one of the last things that producers need to worry about. They no longer need it to show the producers while in development - they can just put pre-recorded temp tracks in for that.

What I think is lost in the whole process is how important music can be to a film and the film's success.

I watched an old film this weekend called "The Princess Bride". This film is a perfect example of how a score can ruin a film. It was horrible IMO. Others may disagree. It is all subjective anyway. Contrast that score with Jaws or Forest Gump. Bottom line: scores matter.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Feb 13, 2018)

Cowtothesky said:


> I watched an old film this weekend called "The Princess Bride". This film is a perfect example of how a score can ruin a film. It was horrible IMO. Others may disagree. It is all subjective anyway. Contrast that score with Jaws or Forest Gump. Bottom line: scores matter.



I think Mark Knopfler did a good job on the score itself, but the actual recordings are downright awful IMO. You can tell they cheaped out and used synths instead of a real orchestra in many sections.


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## reddognoyz (Feb 13, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I think Mark Knopfler did a good job on the score itself, but the actual recordings are downright awful IMO. You can tell they cheaped out and used synths instead of a real orchestra in many sections.


he did such a brillant job on the other films he scored then he discovered the synclavier.


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## reddognoyz (Feb 13, 2018)

One of the composers at our studio was demoing for a series. We get an email about the exciting news that he is one of two composers that will be awarded the job. The producer sent that exciting news and asked how to get in touch with him because she has "another request" $100 says they want another F"ing free demo so they can decide. BECAUSE COMPOSERS WORK FOR FREE RIGHT??? I didn't actually mean all caps but I'm leaving it. I am soooo sick of this business. I know the job pays crap, the back end will be minimal, what's the point? it's almost "hobby" money. I just don't like this business anymore.


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## Greg (Feb 13, 2018)

reddognoyz said:


> One of the composers at our studio was demoing for a series. We get an email about the exciting news that he is one of two composers that will be awarded the job. The producer sent that exciting news and asked how to get in touch with him because she has "another request" $100 says they want another F"ing free demo so they can decide. BECAUSE COMPOSERS WORK FOR FREE RIGHT??? I didn't actually mean all caps but I'm leaving it. I am soooo sick of this business. I know the job pays crap, the back end will be minimal, what's the point? it's almost "hobby" money. I just don't like this business anymore.



You've got to be batshit crazy to want to be a film composer for a career right now. There is a legion of temp music replacers out there undermining each other in every way possible JUST to add something to their iMDB page. Seems like people have become obsessed with getting the gig and have completely forgotten why they wanted it in the first place... to write beautiful unique music like the scores that inspired so many of us.


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## dannymc (Feb 14, 2018)

Greg said:


> You've got to be batshit crazy to want to be a film composer for a career right now. There is a legion of temp music replacers out there undermining each other in every way possible JUST to add something to their iMDB page. Seems like people have become obsessed with getting the gig and have completely forgotten why they wanted it in the first place... to write beautiful unique music like the scores that inspired so many of us.



i thought you were a trailer composer man? maybe its better to stay on that road? 

Danny


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## fixxer49 (Feb 14, 2018)

dannymc said:


> i thought you were a trailer composer man? maybe its better to stay on that road?
> 
> Danny


what does that have to do with the validity of his observation?


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## givemenoughrope (Feb 14, 2018)

Greg said:


> temp music replacers



Name me some of the most beloved, inspired, talked-about and subsequently imitated film music and at least half the time it's based on a temp to some degree...most times very, very close to the temp. I think it all depends on what the temp IS... Film composers establish themselves (at least in my mind) by being different and often it's about finding a director who has music in mind that isn't part of the normal temp music thing or used in a different way. They come along and ride THAT wave as opposed to what was out there before.


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## X-Bassist (Feb 14, 2018)

Like with most creative people, composers need to practice turning people down. Business people do it all the time, producers do it even more, but every composer I’ve worked with, no matter how talented, says yes to everything. Crazy schedules? Producers unrealistic expectations? Tiny budget? Too many don’t realize the advantages of saying no. This all comes from being a people pleaser and wanting to be creatively successful with everyone. Practicing saying “No” to people will help you realize your value, because people will start coming back to you with money that you’d never expect. And some will never return. But those that do will really value your time and your work.

Do you think everybody should value your time and your work? Well that’s an unreasonable expectation, so get rid of it. The trick is to weed out the people that don’t value it. You can start with the people that think it’s ok to offer you nothing. Those are the people that will never respect your work or time, especially after you did all this great work for free (and doing mediocre work is just a waste of everybody’s time). So save yourself the hassle and practice saying “No, thank you. All the best on your film”. You’ll be amazing at how many paying gigs come your way, and now you’ll have the time to do them.  ... But learn to laugh each time they ask you. Like your Dad did when you asked him to drive his favorite car at 6 years old.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Feb 14, 2018)

X-Bassist said:


> Like with most creative people, composers need to practice turning people down. Business people do it all the time, producers do it even more, but every composer I’ve worked with, no matter how talented, say yes to everything. Even so I was surprised to see the round table video with HZ and Danny Elfman and many more, explaining how nervous they still get at a playback or how they worry about what people think. Practicing saying “No” to people will help you realize your value, because people will start coming back to you with money that you’d never expect. And some will never return. But those that do will really value your time and your work.
> 
> Do you think everybody should value your time and your work? Well that’s an unreasonable expectation, so get rid of it. The trick is to weed out the people that don’t value it. You can start with the people that think it’s ok to offer you nothing. Those are the people that will never respect your work or time, especially after you did all this great work for free (and doing mediocre work is just a waste of everybody’s time). So save yourself the hassle and practice saying “No, thank you. All the best on your film”. You’ll be amazing at how many paying gigs come your way, and now you’ll have the time to do them.  ... But learn to laugh each time they ask you. Like your Dad did when you asked him to drive his favorite car at 6 years old.



I see your point, but it's hard to say no when you don't know where your next pay cheque is coming from. I'm fortunate I have a non-musical career to fall back on, but for those who are struggling to make it solely as a composer, it's dog-eat-dog out there. I have turned down gigs because of the money, but can't say that brought more gigs....and I'm talking for the past 20+ years. Composers (on a whole)are expendable in a sense, until you build long term relationships with clients. If we weeded out all the people that didn't value our time for what it's actually worth, we would all be out of work.


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 14, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> If we weeded out all the people that didn't value our time for what it's actually worth, we would all be out of work.



Well if you are not getting paid or paid a low wage, you are already out of work. Well, I guess you can never be out of work if you choose to work for free. But you are not a professional if you do that. You are a hobbyist.

Ask the real pros out there, not those struggling to make it. The real pros keep getting VALUABLE work because they stick to their guns. Those who fold get the scraps.


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## Architekton (Feb 14, 2018)

Similar thing happened to me. A developer of one big video game wanted music from me and my cousin in it but, imagine this, they dont have budget for music, but it will be good for us because people will hear our music and someone might hire us in the future. And they are not small studio, they are actually mid to big and they do have money...so, our response was: no, thank you! Anyway, people really disrespect music, everything connected to music, composers, conductors, music (mix/mastering) engineers, musicians, etc. Its not a good time to be in a music business, unless you are Rihanna or Coldplay. :D


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## Greg (Feb 14, 2018)

dannymc said:


> i thought you were a trailer composer man? maybe its better to stay on that road?
> 
> Danny



Its WAY better to stay on that road if you just want to make money. But I will always want to score amazing films, like many of us do. That's what inspired me to compose in the first place. I'm implying you gotta be crazy to want to score films & make money.


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## Replicant (Feb 14, 2018)

Allow me to put forth an alternative look at the situation

"Sorry composer, we blew our budget on VFX and actors"

Yeah, and why wouldn't they?

It's a tough pill for composers to swallow, but the reality is we're pretty far down the list of priorities when it comes to making films or games, especially on lower-budget projects.

99% of people don't give a damn about music in films or games unless it's bad or its absence is jarring.

and guess what? 9/10 indie films are hipster garbage that most people would NEVER pay to watch and won't even watch for free. If you're going to get asses in those seats to watch that film, it better be well-acted, well-written and LOOK good. No one goes out to the theater to watch the 200th Marvel slugfest of the last 15 minutes for the music so why would anyone think that anybody is going to watch your indie film unless it has an actor maybe someone has actually heard of in it and it is entertaining to watch? The latter usually means it is visually impressive on some level.

You NEED these things in your movie or game to attract some sort of an audience and if you're a small-time company with meager amounts of cash to work with from the get go, you're probably going to have to cut out non-essential things and *gasp* music often is one of those things. Yes, it's better for them to blow their cash on hiring Matt Damon and some good sets and computer graphics and settle with cheap, free or no score at all because someone might actually watch their damn movie simply because Matt Damon.

I don't like it anymore than you, but composers are going to have to accept that we're NOT the most important piece of the puzzle and be willing to work within meager budgets until you hit the big time; and most of us never will. Companies that actually COULD afford to pay you but don't are a different story, but most of the time that's not what this conversation is about.

So by all means, refuse any low-paying or no paying gig and don't accept anything less than whatever you think you're worth (which has no theoretical limit in this case)

but just be prepared to accept the consequences of turning away opportunities as well — just about everyone started with low-paying or free gigs and the idea that we could all just move past that and be making Johnny Depp level pay by refusing to ever accept such lowly gigs is nothing but a fantasy.


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## NoamL (Feb 14, 2018)

Replicant said:


> It's a tough pill for composers to swallow, but the reality is we're pretty far down the list of priorities... 99% of people don't give a damn... composers are going to have to accept that we're NOT the most important piece of the puzzle



If you - as the composer! - think that music is unimportant, why are you writing music? You need to be an advocate for your own value.

My argument to an indie producer would be this: Good acting isn't particularly cheap but it's also not particularly rare. Many indie films also have decent and creative high-concepts.

The #1 thing indie films struggle to execute is not what's going on directly in the shot: the action and acting.

Their problem is usually everything BEYOND the camera's immediate focus: that is, *production value. *Feeling like a real movie. Things like set design, shot composition, editing, sound design, ADR, color grading, special effects, _*and music*_.

Production value is why indie films can have good high concepts, muddle out a half-decent shooting script, have the actors mostly execute on the vision, and yet still feel like an amateur mess.

Because people can tell SUBCONSCIOUSLY the difference between something that lacks production value, for example a shot that was clearly done on a digital camera with all the settings on default:







versus something that was actually lit, shot, and graded to look like A DAMN FILM 






There's even a distinction between TV and film in this regard (or, there used to be). Just look at the Star Trek TNG bridge






Yet when they made the movies:






Because they knew the production design, lighting, and grading of a television show would look fake, disappointing and underwhelming on a 50 foot screen.

If a movie _really and truly_ blew its entire post budget on vfx, that's probably a sign that the producers overestimated how much production value they could get for their budget, and you are indeed screwed.

But if you're _actually negotiating_ for a budget, and you're just being fed the "we don't have money for you" EXCUSE, then you need to riposte with the truth that music is part of the grand illusion of making their hot amateur mess feel like a real Hollywood product. Music will be in every single "frame" of_ most_ of the most important scenes of the movie. If a producer skimps on hiring the composer all they'll be doing is spreading a thin layer of crap on each of those important scenes. Constantly reinforcing the audience's subconscious impression that this film is an amateur mess and a waste of their time and why do they even bother watching indie films?

Whereas by raising the budget a little, for example to encompass a little live recording, your producer can instead have music that *elevates* the apparent production value of the film, smooths over the bumps and gaps left by the low-rent visual effects and set design, the inconsistent color grading, the editing driven by incomplete coverage, etc., all of which will inevitably be driving them nuts when they're trying to save the film in post. You're not there to be yet another money drain, you're there to save the film!


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## Replicant (Feb 14, 2018)

NoamL said:


> If you - as the composer! - think that music is unimportant, why are you writing music?



I didn't say it is unimportant; I said it's not the _most_ important and is far down the list of priorities...I fail to see how that's not true. If it weren't, we'd not see this discussion popping up over and over.



NoamL said:


> You need to be an advocate for your own value.



Yeah, but one of the unfortunate things about life in general is that _we_ don't get to decide our value to _other_ people.

This is true in dating, applying for a job, etc. All you can do is be and your best and hope for the best that can come from that.

_Most_ people who make crap tons of money composing music — or doing anything, really — didn't just say "I'm worth 500 per minute" when they woke up one day and it was so. They started working on low-paying or even no-paying gigs and eventually attracted the attention of people who DO have the money to burn.

Hans Zimmer, John Williams, etc. These guys get paid what they do because rich people in the film industry feel that they're so good and worth it that they're willing to pay (probably) whatever they want.

But people who aren't in that "league" shall we say, always act like it's enough to just "believe" you're worth a million bucks and if you just refuse everyone who refuses to pay you what "you're worth" then it'll happen.

Nope. Never does. They still have that ONE job that paid them more than ever before fading into distant memory because they never got another gig that paid the same or higher. Meanwhile, some kid is amassing a huge list of credits and attracting the attention of people who are bigger deals and is therefore going places.

If you don't know and haven't impressed anyone with serious cash to put into their project who wants YOU to be their composer, then you're just wasting precious time by bitching about indie filmmakers blowing their money on assets that they NEED to not only make the film, but ensure that it might actually get some viewers. They'll use licensed music, n00b composers who might not make a great soundtrack but it gives their film a score and gives the musician experience, or no music at all — no shortage of great films without scores.

We need to stop acting like recent college grads with small government grants shouldn't be expected to prioritize their budget and that they should pay composers whatever arbitrary amount the composer has decided he/she is worth; which will probably exceed the project's stated budget anyway.


EDIT:



NoamL said:


> Whereas by raising the budget a little, for example to encompass a little live recording, your producer can instead have music that *elevates* the apparent production value of the film, smooths over the bumps and gaps left by the low-rent visual effects and set design, the inconsistent color grading, the editing driven by incomplete coverage, etc., all of which will inevitably be driving them nuts when they're trying to save the film in post. You're not there to be yet another money drain, you're there to save the film!



I'd rather not score a film at all than feel like I'm just the guy who is there to polish this turd.


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## MatFluor (Feb 15, 2018)

Maybe as another perspective on the "low/no paying mud you have to walk through".

I completely agree on taking low level work to work your way up, but I am against free work. Compensation *has* to be there. Be it an invite as "+1" to a party where you make contacts, where you wouldn't otherwise get access, be it a dinner together with the crew.

Apart from the considerations of "future work" etc. I wanted to go to that with the perspective of a long-time composer/musician in the metal business. I founded my former band roughly 17 years ago, I just played guitar for three months (yeah, I started late with that). We decied back then on 3 main points: We will not play cover songs, we will not play for free, we will always have fun.

We never played covers and always had fun - but the point of payment was rough. Until we had a reasonable skill and songwriting level, we played some gigs (in exchange we had our rehearsel room/studio for free) without direct monetary payment. Then was the time where we wanted to go out and about. We played gigs without payment - but we never spend a dime. To everyone we asked to to let us play in his venue, we either made a door-deal (we get entry fee, he gets beverages etc) or simple payment of our costs (gas, hotel, catering backstage). We seldom had somebody turn us down. After a few gigs, we wanted to make some money (to make our own recording studio), so we started to charge - in our vicinity it was cheaper (for a half hour drive we don't charge you gas or hotel), for further away, those expenses were in plus a little extra.
In the end we played with Stratovarius (2010) - and now we split. Fact is, we never played for free, we didn't want to spend money for playing - and it worked, very few said "nobody knows you, you pay us", most started to bargain or were happy to pay us.

So, we decided to avoid the "no pay swamp" and didn't have many problems. Were there bands who played for free? Of course. Did they "take our gigs"? Maybe 3-4 times. Did it hurt our career? No, I would say on the contrary. We want money, we know we have value. I agree that you don't ask for Metallica-grade pay when you start out, but have your expenses paid at least. What is your power consumption? How much coffee did you need to create the tracks? what new library did you need (or record) to get the perfect sound for the project? All factors that the client should pay (you get what I mean), so that you don't spend extra.

In conclusion from my perspective:
- Do not work for *free*
- Get something in return - can be little, but *something*
- Build your price up - get your expenses paid first, and then add "pure revenue" on top of that. I don't mean that they pay your rent directly, but the immediate expenses.

Working for free != Paying for working. You can work without revenue-positive payment, but get your costs covered - or an equivalent of that. We did once a gig at a small venue for Vouchers in the Restaurant nearby! They got free vouchers and gave them to us as payment. Fair enough, we played for literal food  Same (for me) is with film/media composing. Always get something in return, and over time make that "something" larger.


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## X-Bassist (Feb 15, 2018)

All said, most post production work is a negotiation. Figure out what the minimum is you can afford to do it for


Replicant said:


> no shortage of great films without scores



Really? I’m struggling to think of one GREAT film with no music. Music that comes way into the film, yes, but NO score at all?

Your going to have to back that statement up with a list of your 10 favorite “no score” films to back up the statement “no shortage...”. Even silent films had a score (that guy playing organ at the theater ). Perhaps you only write statements to get people worked up, but this is one instance where I can say put up your list or refrain from spewing nonsense.


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## MatFluor (Feb 15, 2018)

X-Bassist said:


> All said, most post production work is a negotiation. Figure out what the minimum is you can afford to do it for
> 
> 
> Really? I’m struggling to think of one GREAT film with no music. Music that comes way into the film, yes, but NO score at all?
> ...



There are some - that at least don't have a lot of score (none mostly), older movies of course, which sometimes just have an intro theme and outro, but the film itself isn't scored, No Country for Old Men, Blair Witch project...

I remember that there is a special "style" of film associated with that, but I don't remember how it's called. It was a kind of rebellious director thingy, where they said that "music shouldn't be in the film unless it's coming from the scene" like a radio or singing actor etc. Meaning there have been films that were deliberately produced without music.

Damn - I need to find the name of this style - I'll edit when I find it....


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## Greg (Feb 15, 2018)

Replicant said:


> 99% of people don't give a damn about music in films or games unless it's bad or its absence is jarring.



Wow really? There are only thousands of film and game scores that people still love today to prove you completely wrong.


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## Replicant (Feb 15, 2018)

Greg said:


> Wow really? There are only thousands of film and game scores that people still love today to prove you completely wrong.



I read an article some years back that credited games with "saving" the symphony orchestra because concerts of VGM get young people out to see the orchestra. Yeah, I've been to VGl and stuff many times and there's no shortage of people.

But those people still account for a minority. Koji Kondo, John Williams, Uematsu and maybe Michiru Yamane are among the only musicians where a sizeable number of people will go out and buy the product or see the movie they're attached to JUST for the music.

But _most_ don't. Plenty of gamers don't give a second thought to the music and replace the game's soundtrack with their own. We've already established that most random people on the street can't whistle a single tune from the MCU, which is more popular than air at this point, and will that stop any relevant number of people from flocking to the theaters this week for Black Panther? Not at all.

Music in your game, film or TV show is not at all a reliable beacon for sales.

The moral of the story here is that people with limited (often severely) funds are going to have to cut corners somewhere and music is where many of them do it. I agree it's unwise, but you're only fooling yourself if you can't see why they do it.

So we have two options: Stand firmly by whatever number we pull out of our asses that we've decided we're "worth" and refuse any gig that would dare offer less; and wind up bitter and bored with no projects to work on. OR we can accept that maybe the world doesn't revolve around us, work within budgets (even if it's no budget) and use that to move us forward towards proving to companies and people with wealth aplenty that we ARE worth whatever number we've come up with AND — and this is very important — they'll _actually be able to pay our asking price.
_
Until that day, just keep chippin' away. But keep in mind that day may never come. If you're not willing to accept that, then I'd suggest considering a different line of work.

Remember, "music isn't about the money!" and when scoring a film "Picture is always king!" — that is, until we start talking about $.


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## guydoingmusic (Feb 15, 2018)

Replicant said:


> I read an article some years back that credited games with "saving" the symphony orchestra because concerts of VGM get young people out to see the orchestra. Yeah, I've been to VGl and stuff many times and there's no shortage of people.
> 
> But those people still account for a minority. Koji Kondo, John Williams, Uematsu and maybe Michiru Yamane are among the only musicians where a sizeable number of people will go out and buy the product or see the movie they're attached to JUST for the music.
> 
> ...



Have you ever listened to a movie/show without the music? Imagine Star Wars without the music. Probably not as big of an epic adventure anymore. Watch a horror film with the sound off or watch an action sequence with no music/sound - what happens...? the experience is now diminished.

It's the same thing playing in a live band. You shouldn't know the bass player is there unless he was to drop out and not play. Then you would notice something missing. The audience may not be able to pinpoint exactly why it stopped sounding good but they know something is off. Likewise - the majority may not appreciate what the music is actually contributing to a film/game/show... but they would be able to say that something was missing and the experience would be incomplete in most cases.

From your point of view, it sounds like we shouldn't have music in film at all. Obviously they should focus more on CGI and other aspects of the production. You might as well say that silent films are the crème de la crème. And they don't need music either. Because it's the visuals and how sexy the actors/actresses are on screen that is drawing the crowd. Right?

Lastly, I never got into music to "get rich". I did it out of my passion and love for it. However, my family can't eat from just my passion. Last time I checked, the mortgage company doesn't take Exposure Bucks as payment either. I have been fortunate enough though to be able to work and contribute financially to my family through this seemingly useless commodity I offer.


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## NoamL (Feb 15, 2018)




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## Replicant (Feb 15, 2018)

guydoingmusic said:


> Have you ever listened to a movie/show without the music?



Yes, like movies that don't have music to being with.



guydoingmusic said:


> You shouldn't know the bass player is there unless he was to drop out and not play.



I couldn't disagree more. A good bass player and bassline doesn't just simply follow the guitar or whatever. It works rhythmically and contrapuntally with the rest of the music.



guydoingmusic said:


> From your point of view, it sounds like we shouldn't have music in film at all. Obviously they should focus more on CGI and other aspects of the production. You might as well say that silent films are the crème de la crème.



You're strawmanning my argument.



guydoingmusic said:


> Because it's the visuals and how sexy the actors/actresses are on screen that is drawing the crowd. Right?



Yeah...it is lol.

The story, the actors, the visuals...that's the most important thing for the film. Music is there to enhance it where appropriate, not "save the film" or whatever.



guydoingmusic said:


> Lastly, I never got into music to "get rich". I did it out of my passion and love for it. However, my family can't eat from just my passion. Last time I checked, the mortgage company doesn't take Exposure Bucks as payment either. I have been fortunate enough though to be able to work and contribute financially to my family through this seemingly useless commodity I offer.



I'm not sure why it's a difficult concept for people to realize that music ISN'T the most important thing (doesn't mean it's unimportant) in a movie or why expecting college grads with tiny grants, if they have any money to work with at all, to pay your bills at your 500$ per minute rate is fucking absurd.

It's the equivalent of walking into a mom and pop shop and demanding 5x minimum wage to work there just because you've decided you're worth it and then crying when you walk away jobless.

It reminds me of these rig workers up here who sit on unemployment every time the oilfield crashes and won't get a job that pays less than 75 an hour because "it's what I'm worth!" and then complain because "damn immigrants are taking our jobs!"

So unless your clients are the like of Universal Studios, you might have to accept that a five or six figure pay for a score is unrealistic and if you don't have any clients who can pay your bills working for them — consider doing what musicians have had to do since the dawn of time and get a day job.


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