# Does anyone actually have a Dorico Exp Map that works?



## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 6, 2020)

And I am not talking about a basic Sus Stac Trem Pizz map but one that contains con sord add ons and more nuanced switching.

I come back every few months to test it out and it frustrates the shit out of me until I give up, *every single time.* It is so unreliable and buggy I cannot fathom writing music with it. I can set it up fine, but after a few lines of music, it just bugs out and has barely any idea what it's trying to do. I always make sure that all artics are accounted for so it knows where it should be but to no avail. 

For instance, the latest issue is that con sord will start a bar later and sometimes never switch off if in senza sord territory.

Anyone fairing better?


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## Bollen (Nov 6, 2020)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> And I am not talking about a basic Sus Stac Trem Pizz map but one that contains con sord add ons and more nuanced switching.
> 
> I come back every few months to test it out and it frustrates the shit out of me until I give up, *every single time.* It is so unreliable and buggy I cannot fathom writing music with it. I can set it up fine, but after a few lines of music, it just bugs out and has barely any idea what it's trying to do. I always make sure that all artics are accounted for so it knows where it should be but to no avail.
> 
> ...


I hear ya brother! I've ranted about them since Sibelius years and when I went to Dorico found it's the same bloody thing again... I just do everything manually these days, I'm tired of fighting with it...


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 6, 2020)

Bollen said:


> I hear ya brother! I've ranted about them since Sibelius years and when I went to Dorico found it's the same bloody thing again... I just do everything manually these days, I'm tired of fighting with it...


im posting my stream of consciousness mental breakdown on the dorico page, hopefully they see


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## Bollen (Nov 6, 2020)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> im posting my stream of consciousness mental breakdown on the dorico page, hopefully they see


I'll go check it out and support you!


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## Virtual Virgin (Nov 10, 2020)

Hi,
Right now I am in the midst of programming a large orchestral template full of expression maps and percussion maps for Dorico.

I have encountered a lot frustrations with Dorico's methods here and I think they have made a number a of large mistakes in the architecture which makes the whole system much more difficult to use that it needs to be. 

If you are struggling with importing expression maps and making them work, one of the first things I would say is check the playback techniques that are linked in the expression map. If custom techniques were used by the author of the map, you have to remake all of those custom techniques yourself :(
They are not shared in the expression map format itself. It's quite ridiculous really and I think Dorico screwed this up. 

So far the process has been a real PITA and I'm only doing it because I know the end results will be better. But I also know they could have streamlined the design here to make it take a fraction of the time it is taking me.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 10, 2020)

Virtual Virgin said:


> Hi,
> Right now I am in the midst of programming a large orchestral template full of expression maps and percussion maps for Dorico.
> 
> I have encountered a lot frustrations with Dorico's methods here and I think they have made a number a of large mistakes in the architecture which makes the whole system much more difficult to use that it needs to be.
> ...


Yeah, I think for the third time now I have given up on creating them. Sorry to hear your experiences are similar.


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## Bollen (Nov 10, 2020)

Virtual Virgin said:


> Hi,
> Right now I am in the midst of programming a large orchestral template full of expression maps and percussion maps for Dorico.
> 
> I have encountered a lot frustrations with Dorico's methods here and I think they have made a number a of large mistakes in the architecture which makes the whole system much more difficult to use that it needs to be.
> ...


I've actually resigned myself to working how I used to do it in Sibelius i.e. I have two staves, one where I write the instrument the way I want it notated and another treble or bass cleff for just playback. When I'm done I just hide the latter. It's not ideal, but at least I get the result I need... I'm not a bloody programmer Steinberg!!!


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## Sean J (Nov 10, 2020)

Same wrestle here. Bought 3.5 per a convo w/ Daniel. Under-the-hood has improved in big ways w/ each update. I just don't want under-the-hood anymore, especially as I've converted 100% to StaffPad and find it a joy to use.

So...

I requested *a feature*, to get Aaron Venture's libraries sounding convincing in Dorico. It will eliminate most under-the-hood mapping complexity and give Dorico near-full agility out-of-box, at least w/ Infinite. Once they add it (Daniel agreed about it being a good feature to add in time), then I'll be looking exclusively at workflow and mobility.


*Play Tab* auto-nav based on *Write Tab* bar selection
Velocity compression handles (as Cubase does it)
A custom Write toolbar so I only see what I use most by default
Pen input... gestures... touch tools for good workflow... tablet tablet tablet!!!

When we get those, I'll force myself to write a full piece in Dorico and see where it ranks w/ StaffPad for me. If they can nail workflow, they'll have all the features to make most everyone happy. It's mostly just workflow problems to tackle. To be fair to Daniel and the Dorico dev team, the Play Tab is miles ahead of Sibelius. It's just behind most DAWs... and DAWs were already suffering from outdated workflow issues. With Dorico's impressive feature list and Bravura's beauty, they have done remarkable work. It's just all in a different order than other devs. David Hearn obviously cares more about touch gestures than VST compatibility and other things Dorico focused more on from the start. To each their own. It deserves the praise it gets for a lot of reasons. So does StaffPad. Only time will tell how this plays out.

For now, I'll stick to StaffPad. Especially as I know David is adding some really cool features soon. 

I'll still revisit Dorico though on 4 or 4.5 to see if they add the CC feature. But 3.5 isn't for me right now, unfortunately.


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## Bollen (Nov 10, 2020)

Sean J said:


> Same wrestle here. Bought 3.5 per a convo w/ Daniel. Under-the-hood has improved in big ways w/ each update. I just don't want under-the-hood anymore, especially as I've converted 100% to StaffPad and find it a joy to use.
> 
> So...
> 
> ...


Although I wholeheartedly agree, I don't really believe StaffPad competes with Dorico. The reason is because the former is a portable program that it's designed from the ground up to work exclusively on a tablet . Whereas Dorico not only has that stupid, stupid dongle thingy, but being a semi-DAW type application, it's really meant for serious studios to run with multiple heavy and CPU intense libraries. Personally that's how I use them and I love them for what they are: StaffPad for writing/Sketching, Dorico for full production i.e. part and mockup.

Of course Dorico could tread into StaffPad's territory, especially with the SE versions, but I'm not that sure they would benefit that much. Dorico has long way to go before fully defeating the other Notation programs and it also wants to take on the DAWs (at least in the score mockup department), so I don't see them getting to the handwriting enthusiasts any time soon...

My 2p...


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## Sean J (Nov 11, 2020)

Bollen said:


> Whereas Dorico not only has that stupid, stupid dongle thingy



My licenser sits in a drawer now. Booya!

StaffPad adding Stems Export, David mentioning film features planned, and I know of other features that allow DAW-like composing agility... I'd say he's focused on it being a workhorse tool more than a sketcher. StaffPad Reader definitely speaks to the professional workflow point. It gets a job done. Compatibility follows user base (RTAS and VST came after the DAWs did), so 7 of 10 features isn't a problem, if the 7 are done really well. StaffPad has done amazing on many. So we'll see, but I think it's definitely meant to be a workstation. I keep thinking "I wrote a minute of music at the train station on Saturday". It's a wonderful feeling I just haven't had with a DAW. Maybe that prejudices me. 

With Dorico, I find myself repeatedly saying "maybe next release..." It always feels barely around the corner. I used to say that a lot with Cubase, until I tried Studio One. Now, I just don't fight with software anymore. Dorico's engraving quality and intelligence keeps me interested, so I'm not anti-Dorico. I just always feel like I'm fighting it just to get it to work in a sensible way. And not because of preconceptions either. I've used more programs (notation and DAW) than I care to admit, and more than most people even know have ever existed. I adapt just fine to a new workflow. It's not me, it's D. lol

Hopefully these issues will work out, and sooner than later. For other reasons, I have interests in seeing Dorico succeed. I want it to. I just wrestle too much with it. StaffPad also had a wrestle (handwriting), but only until the first song was written. Now I fly. I've never felt remotely close to flying in Dorico.


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## Bollen (Nov 11, 2020)

Sean J said:


> My licenser sits in a drawer now. Booya!
> 
> StaffPad adding Stems Export, David mentioning film features planned, and I know of other features that allow DAW-like composing agility... I'd say he's focused on it being a workhorse tool more than a sketcher. StaffPad Reader definitely speaks to the professional workflow point. It gets a job done. Compatibility follows user base (RTAS and VST came after the DAWs did), so 7 of 10 features isn't a problem, if the 7 are done really well. StaffPad has done amazing on many. So we'll see, but I think it's definitely meant to be a workstation. I keep thinking "I wrote a minute of music at the train station on Saturday". It's a wonderful feeling I just haven't had with a DAW. Maybe that prejudices me.
> 
> ...


I hear ya! But I do fly with Dorico. I've always been a notation guy, but it used to be a convoluted mix of handwriting > notation program > DAW, whereas now it's just StaffPad > Dorico... Yeahee!

I have set it up in such a way that my workflow is pretty smooth, I use two of those Streamdeck thingies sitting on my MIDI keyboard and I also have a big monitor in portrait mode above that, so in general I just write unencumbered...


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## mducharme (Nov 21, 2020)

One thing I would highly recommend as you are writing expression maps - switch to Play mode and mouse over the technique in the Playing Techniques lane. It will show you exactly what technique Dorico is trying to trigger at that time. That might help you in troubleshooting why your technique is not working - perhaps there is some conflict between two techniques and so Dorico is not triggering the one you wanted.


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## Virtual Virgin (Nov 21, 2020)

Yes, it helps to see what technique it is being sent. I need to point out however that sound audition that takes place when you select a note (in Write or Play) is almost always playing back an incorrect technique. This makes most testing for expression maps and percussion maps even more of a headache than it already is, because you can't rely on just clicking a note to hear if your map is set up correctly.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 21, 2020)

mducharme said:


> One thing I would highly recommend as you are writing expression maps - switch to Play mode and mouse over the technique in the Playing Techniques lane. It will show you exactly what technique Dorico is trying to trigger at that time. That might help you in troubleshooting why your technique is not working - perhaps there is some conflict between two techniques and so Dorico is not triggering the one you wanted.


In theory except playback is so unreliable, its near pointless at the moment. 

I once again gave up until the system matures further.


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## Virtual Virgin (Nov 21, 2020)

It's a hefty pain in the a** and a huge disappointment.

I am still chugging away at making a large template full of expression maps and percussion maps.
There are so many features that require a "workaround" just to get some basic coherence between notation and playback and I can't imagine people at Dorico actually tested these tools. It's a monster click-fest as well. You have to go back and forth between multiple, mutually exclusive windows that do not behave (like all of the VSTis open in the back, then take multiple confusing clicks to bring to the front). 

You also can't play or audition the music from most windows (like the percussion map, or when the VSTi is out front).

So... yeah. I feel like a beta-tester. This is not professional by any means.


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## DaddyO (Nov 22, 2020)

Virtual Virgin said:


> This is not professional by any means.



I would say it's professional but not yet fully mature.

Let me ask you this, would you rather work with an innovative, adaptive 20-year old who has already accomplished a great deal, who listens and learns, or with a set-in-his-ways 50-year-old whose innovative accomplishments lie many years in the past?

It seems to me that one of the reasons that the status of Dorico's VST playback capabilities is due to the combination of not only it's youth, but also it's vision. It has been programmed as a complex platform that can and will be significantly developed. In terms of capabilities it's already light years ahead of the competition. What needs more attention is the user interface, so that things are easier to set up and make work.

I totally agree that right now the immaturity and complexity of the system is tedious and often frustrating. I myself for now am just staying with Noteperformer for Dorico playback. It does amazingly well at very little cost. I'm biding my time with VST implementation. A number of users have successfully navigated and implemented playback templates and expression maps with various VST's. I can't seem to quite get there...yet. If I'm honest I think those that have succeeded are just more talented than me in such things.


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## Sean J (Nov 23, 2020)

DaddyO said:


> I would say it's professional but not yet fully mature.



Brad Bird convinced Pixar to focus on scene creation instead of making an entire world that was more agile. Coding for every possibility, allowance, over-ride, and auxiliary feature seems to breed unfinished, unreliable, and unwieldy to use. Dorico seems to balance mountains of features really well. My main issue isn't really that it's not fully mature. It has 100x more features than StaffPad. It truly is mature in that sense. It's just not streamlined enough.

After all, real mastery is knowing how to be simple.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 24, 2020)

The greatest advantage of Dorico (and Sibelius and Finale  is that I do not have to mess around with keyswitches and other plugins but can use Noteperformer. 



Sean J said:


> After all, real mastery is knowing how to be simple.



True, that's why I still the the most 'work' done with Live (if it doesn't involve mixing .


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