# My New Video: How to Use Band in a Box for Songwriting



## Reid Rosefelt (Oct 19, 2020)

Most musicians see Band in a Box as software that should only be used for accompaniment. It's great for singers or solo instrumentalists, but not for using in compositions.

While many people are fine with employing drum programs, guitar programs, EZKeys, etc to make their music, BIAB is a bridge too far because it does EVERYTHING. One button push and there is an entire arrangement, fully mixed. It bypasses the myriad choices you make when you use and combine various kinds of software.

I'm basically in agreement with that, but I use the arrangements I generate with BIAB to help me make my songs better. 

This video shows how I take a simple song and develop it using BIAB.

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## FinGael (Oct 19, 2020)

Thank you for the video Mr Frog. This is something I've been thinking now and then, during the years.

I have used BIAB "a few centuries ago" and am interested in the current versions, but the different versions available feel confusing. The most comprehensive package is quite expensive.

What version would you recommend and why?


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## Reid Rosefelt (Oct 19, 2020)

When I bought BIAB when it came out in 1990 it was about sixty bucks, but getting it now is very expensive and confusing. I got into the details of buying it in my video but it didn't fit, so I made a separate video out of it. There's a link at the end of the video above, but here it is.



If I was going to start up with BIAB today it would be with their UltraPAK, which costs $469 (!!!!)
It is the first one that has their full set of recordings of musicians, and it has no less than 2900+ of them. Also I would definitely buy it when the latest version comes out, which is the end of the year for the PC and (I think) Spring/Summer for Mac. 

There are two packages above that. The UltraPAK+ for an additional $100 seems to be exactly the same, only with some songs and lessons. The Audiophile Edition outputs uncompressed files, either Wav or AIFF depending on which version you buy.

And wait... there's more! 

They also sell something called *Xtra Styles PAKs**. *Styles are combinations of Realtracks into musical styles. They sold for $50 each, but now you can get 1-9 for the low, low price of $349! The good news is that there are usually sales on the Xtra Styles PAKs when the new version of BIAB comes out. 

Of course, you can just buy only the Xtra Styles PAKs you want, but for the way I use it, I want as many as I can get. They usually come out with two each year, when the new version of BIAB comes out and about six months after that. 

Finally, each edition of BIAB comes with a Bonus set of 49 styles. There's no way to get these styles unless you upgrade every year.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Oct 19, 2020)

Larry on the Cakewalk Forum just posted that you can get 25% off with the code FB25PROTOOLS. Worth a try.


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## KarlHeinz (Oct 19, 2020)

I have seen your video with much interest and can follow completely your thoughts as I am always looking for new ways/tools that fit best my really own personal "think-, feel- and workflow".

But still I wonder if you are really content with the sounds coming out of BIAB in the end ?

I must say I never found a tool where in the end I was content with the sound and ever second part of the composing is just using the midi and finding the right sounds out of this universe of sounds I already have that best fit my mood/intention.

I have tried BiAB decades ago, then from time to time with some demos whatever but never really get used to the general GUI/workflow and so I am really happy now with all this new midi tools from something complex as Rapid Composer to something easy as Captain plugins (and dozents of others in the meantime) that can help you on different stages of the composition process.

Lates experience was with a complex ambient generative tool where at least as much time (and I talk about decades here again) has gone in the audio instruments as has gone in the midi generative process but in the end I simply dont use the option to export the "finished" audio but use the raw midi and go on in my daw to search for "my" sounds even if the results might not even sound better (at least not that perfectly sounding together).


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## FinGael (Oct 19, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> When I bought BIAB when it came out in 1990 it was about sixty bucks, but getting it now is very expensive and confusing. I got into the details of buying it in my video but it didn't fit, so I made a separate video out of it. There's a link at the end of the video above, but here it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you very much for this! Only a few days ago I was thinking about this, so your BIAB -video was a very welcome surprise.

I managed to miss the info about the versions in (the end of) your video.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Oct 19, 2020)

KarlHeinz said:


> I have seen your video with much interest and can follow completely your thoughts as I am always looking for new ways/tools that fit best my really own personal "think-, feel- and workflow".
> 
> But still I wonder if you are really content with the sounds coming out of BIAB in the end ?
> 
> ...


I guess I didn't make it clear in my video. I'm probably not going to use a single note of what comes out of BIAB. I very rarely do. 

Now that BIAB has given me a new feeling or tone for my song, I'll play my guitar and my keyboard, and program drums, percussion, etc. It will be different. This song is still a work in progress. The vocals in the video are just temp. 

If I was a professional musician, instead of a hobbyist, a producer could suggest a different direction--tempo, different arrangement, etc. And back in the days when I played in rock bands, one of the members of my band would have ideas. Ultimately the songs were the creation of the band, not just the songwriter. But now I'm alone and all I have is what I can come up with by myself. And BIAB allows me to explore all these crazy ideas like a virtual Hal Willner.

That said, if there's a part that BIAB does best, I have no problem using it. The gospel vocals I demonstrate in my video are great. Show me a VI that sounds as good as that. I've taken bass parts, but now I could feed them into EZBass and futz around with them. 

I'm personally not that interested in using software to generate melodies or chord progressions for me. I have Scaler and I find it a lot of fun, particularly the performances, but when it comes down to actual songwriting, somehow I always end up going back to the piano keyboard or guitar. That's what I know. To each his own.

But I do like horsing around with randomizing instruments like Audiofier's Riffendium. A lot of interesting virtual instruments out there.


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## KarlHeinz (Oct 19, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> I guess I didn't make it clear in my video. I'm probably not going to use a single note of what comes out of BIAB. I very rarely do.
> 
> Now that BIAB has given me a new feeling or tone for my song, I'll play my guitar and my keyboard, and program drums, percussion, etc. It will be different. This song is still a work in progress. The vocals in the video are just temp.
> 
> ...


Got it now , I really thought from the video that you took the result from BIAB "as is".

I must admit I am still searching the "bridge" back to "real" music of the old days  . For me electronic music was kind of "substitute" when there was just no more time for the real thing. And as "only" a singer back in these days of old with no theoretical music background 3-chords-on guitar and nothing else these tools (apart from the sounds) are really helpful. Now with nothing then a PC or a notebook, not even place for a bedroom recording arrangement (at least a microphone that could be left in recording-ready status, sigh....) only way to get something "complete" at least.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Oct 19, 2020)

KarlHeinz said:


> Got it now , I really thought from the video that you took the result from BIAB "as is".
> 
> I must admit I am still searching the "bridge" back to "real" music of the old days  . For me electronic music was kind of "substitute" when there was just no more time for the real thing. And as "only" a singer back in these days of old with no theoretical music background 3-chords-on guitar and nothing else these tools (apart from the sounds) are really helpful. Now with nothing then a PC or a notebook, not even place for a bedroom recording arrangement (at least a microphone that could be left in recording-ready status, sigh....) only way to get something "complete" at least.


That makes total sense to me. The important thing is to keep expressing yourself, and the way you do it doesn't matter. 

And I sympathize. I live in a loft so I don't have a bedroom or any room at all.


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## YaniDee (Oct 19, 2020)

I bought the Ultra a couple of years ago..they always have sales in December , but it's still kind of pricy..They are a Canadian company, but they even charged me in US dollars to ship a hard drive through Canada Post! Anyhow, it definitely has its' uses. Besides generating whole songs, it does a pretty good job of providing single tracks that you can use..stuff like pedal steel , banjo, mandolin, guitar and bass parts that, as you they can be rendered to individual tracks, can be used as part of another arrangement. As much as I'm against "AI" , it can generate some pretty believable parts..Here is an example, with a basic fiddle part, and quite good mandolin solo (panned a bit too far to the left, not a great mix..)


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## Reid Rosefelt (Oct 19, 2020)

YaniDee said:


> I bought the Ultra a couple of years ago..they always have sales in December , but it's still kind of pricy..They are a Canadian company, but they even charged me in US dollars to ship a hard drive through Canada Post! Anyhow, it definitely has its' uses. Besides generating whole songs, it does a pretty good job of providing single tracks that you can use..stuff like pedal steel , banjo, mandolin, guitar and bass parts that, as you they can be rendered to individual tracks, can be used as part of another arrangement. As much as I'm against "AI" , it can generate some pretty believable parts..Here is an example, with a basic fiddle part, and quite good mandolin solo (panned a bit too far to the left, not a great mix..)


They are very believable because there are real musicians playing them. If you were lucky enough to be able to hire real session musicians, it might sound something like that. Because it's session musicians who create the BIAB parts. 

I just am not sure how I feel about actually using solos from BIAB in a song. It's not really any different from using phrases, but I generally don't use phrases. The arrangement I used for my final choice has a soloist, but of course I'm not going to use those solos. There's a lot of gray areas, because some playable virtual instruments (SILK comes to mind) have some phrases woven into them. 

As I said, the gospel vocals and the oohs and ahhs are as good as you'll find anywhere. I am totally fine with using them. I also have no problem using anything I'm capable of playing myself on the guitar, but not as well, or at least not without a lot of time. I have issues with my fingers that makes it much harder to play than it used to, and I have no problem using Picked Acoustic or BIAB or anything else.

But I'm still not comfortable with taking a BIAB solo and putting it into my songs. Or maybe it's as simple as that's where the fun is for me.


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## YaniDee (Oct 19, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> They are very believable because there are real musicians playing them.


Yes, I'm aware of that..I don't really write songs, I write instrumental pieces...sometimes, if you want to add a pedal steel, banjo or what ever part as a textural element, BIAB can do a pretty good job of that..the other choices are to use a real musician (best choice of course) or to buy a pedal steel library for a couple of hundred, learn how to use it, and play the part.I don't see it as loops, because you're providing the harmony and, (maybe too many), tweak-able parameters. You can also edit the output.
I know there's people selling backing tracks made with it, or even selling generated songs for 10$ as youtube music..frankly, why not, you own the program, and the results are supposed to be 100% "royalty free. We have to get a return on our investments some time! I haven't done that, but like I said, why not..


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## Reid Rosefelt (Oct 19, 2020)

YaniDee said:


> Yes, I'm aware of that..I don't really write songs, I write instrumental pieces...sometimes, if you want to add a pedal steel, banjo or what ever part as a textural element, BIAB can do a pretty good job of that..the other choices are to use a real musician (best choice of course) or to buy a pedal steel library for a couple of hundred, learn how to use it, and play the part.I don't see it as loops, because you're providing the harmony and, (maybe too many), tweak-able parameters. You can also edit the output.
> I know there's people selling backing tracks made with it, or even selling generated songs for 10$ as youtube music..frankly, why not, you own the program, and the results are supposed to be 100% "royalty free. We have to get a return on our investments some time! I haven't done that, but like I said, why not..



BIAB will even generate an entire melody with chords. Somebody could just sit home clicking "generate melody" and send dozens of finished tracks every day. 

It is true that you really wanted a final track, you'd need to tweak it. For example, not all chords work with every instrument, so you might have to change them. My song didn't work with all the gospel vocals but maybe if I changed Em7 to Em or D/F# to D, it might. 

When I used BIAB to generate pedal steel for a friend's demo, I generated a half dozen variations and put them into Cubase. And then I comped them. That way I had control of when BIAB played its phrases. Otherwise it is just total chance. 

So if your goal is to use BIAB for final tracks, I agree, you do have to put some work in.


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