# Scoring music first before DAW vs. playing music live into a DAW



## JasonMP (Jun 4, 2017)

Hello everyone,

I've been a lurker on this forum for a while, but I have just recently gotten back into composing. In the past, my workflow has always been to compose "by hand" manually (no instrument, just mouse and keyboard) in scoring software and then exporting the MIDI to Cubase, where I "massage" the notes to humanize the performance. As you might imagine, this results in a less than optimal outcome since it sounds like a computer played the music.

Many people on this forum have stressed the importance of playing parts in live. Would the general workflow look something like this?

1. Compose and write parts out in a scoring program
2. Memorize or print the score and play it into a DAW
3. Add automation, adjust controller values, correct mistakes
4. Post production

I'm relatively new to playing the piano, and while I'm getting better I can only manage simple passages when performing into the DAW. What I had in mind to mitigate this issue is to slow the tempo down greatly, and play the parts in at a slow speed. That way a crazy arpeggio or scale run becomes manageable, and the end result would be more "human" rather than a perfectly executed passage imported via my MIDI score.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm really at a loss as to how to approach producing realistic sounding music without being a proficient pianist, and it will take time to get to that point.


----------



## wst3 (Jun 4, 2017)

Your workflow looks good, but I'm biased, it's pretty much what I do - or try to do - most of the time. There is some iteration as I come up with new ideas, and sometimes it makes sense to play them in, sometimes it makes sense to click them in. I also work with live tracks a lot, which complicates things a little bit.

I suspect that you will be tweaking your workflow from project to project and I'm not convinced I'll ever be "finished" with that task, but that's ok too.


----------



## CT (Jun 4, 2017)

This is sort of what I do, except I haven't written anything out as in your first step. I'm basically improvising every part, at least on the first pass, and I do that until I feel I've gotten one right and move on. I used to be a paper guy, but I enjoy this process so much more. I know it can be disorienting, though, if you're used to putting things down in an organized, visible representation. But I feel like I compose much more intuitively like this, and the time saved by combining composition/demo making is great as well. If I need a score when all is done, it's a simple transcription matter.


----------



## JJP (Jun 4, 2017)

I follow a procedure similar to the OP. However, at step 1, I will also record little ideas and use the sequencer as a notepad. Then I will go back and enter the notes into a notation program so that I can crystalize the idea and develop it. Once the composition is finished or nearly finished, I move on to step 2.


----------



## jonnybutter (Jun 4, 2017)

I'm a die hard paper and pencil guy, but only when it's really necessary. That said, a quick sketch that only _you_ need to be able to read can be handy. That's what I usually do - as complex (e.g. lead sheet) or explicit (score) as I need to make it, if I need written music at all. 

Re: slowing tempo down and playing parts in live - that sounds convincing only within a tempo range. You can also do a lot if sophisticated midi processing to typed in or played in notes - 'humanize', various other kinds of randomization or quantization. I use Logic as my main sequencer, and it does a lot of cool midi processing; I use quantize range a lot for more realistic quantizing. Cubase just as deep MIDI-wise no doubt.


----------



## trumpoz (Jun 5, 2017)

Unless im writing with the view of music being performed by live musicians I generally play straight in the my DAW. Sometimes line are too hard to play so I have to slow the tempo down or quicky click it in by hand. It has helped me think more on a macro level about how I want to structure the piece/cue. 

I find it easier to play it straight in as I can get more expression in to the DAW in a shorter period of time. 

Side note: I also have got perfect pitch so as soon as I hear a melody in my head i can just play in.


----------



## gregh (Jun 5, 2017)

I never play into the computer unless it is guitar, which I barely play now because of arthritis. I don't have anything like perfect pitch but like trumpoz I would most often think of what I wanted and play it in one take. From laziness as much as any great skill. Funnily enough I have been thinking of starting to play into the machine more to break up my workflow. Often I write software to generate pieces, so playing again would be a real challenge


----------



## Vastman (Jun 5, 2017)

As a singer/songwriter/guitarist who spent huge chunks of my life playing in bands, my style was always extemporaneous... allowing the muse to move things.... about the only thing I committed to paper was composing the words to songs...

With the emergence of the computer, DAWs, midi things have evolved in amazing ways yet I still compose mostly by sitting down and playing, finding a groove or sound/theme and adding as I go. Melody is soooo important but again, comes from just letting it rip! Of course, with the endless sounds, rhythms, arps, and multis currently at our disposal, this becomes a wide open shot in the dark as to where to start and where to go.

Probably half my time is spent in this mode and half in editing/mixing. That's the tedious part for me but absolutely necessary as I have never had the free time to spend to hone my keyboard/DAW/vst use skills. Now I have the time and am very excited putting a new studio together in my new digs.

Probably has nothing to do with orchestrating but then again, watching DJ livestream his creative endevours, I'm excited by seeing how magical orchestrations can be done this way too...


----------



## JasonMP (Jun 5, 2017)

Thanks everybody for the reponses! This has given me a ton of ideas to think about. Like Vastman, I come from a guitarist/songwriter background, and it's been a big transition to move into the VST composing world. 

I was hoping Steinberg's Dorico would integrate with Cubase directly, as I find the score editor in Cubase to be lacking. It's harder for me to make sense of the chords in the piano roll, perhaps because I can't yet apply music theory to the piano keyboard other than for basic major/minor scales and chords without laboring over it (e.g. I have to "locate" the 6th or 7th without just intuitively knowing where it is.) It sounds like I need to study Cubase more and play around with all the quantizing features. Lynda.com has a Cubase course or two, and I've used it for IT stuff in the past (gotta pay the bills). 

The approach mentioned above about using the DAW as a scratchpad, exporting to a scoring program, finalizing, reimporting back into the DAW and midi processing... That sounds like something that could work really well. The tactile and aural benefits of composing using an instrument (or using one's mind, then an instrument) seems to add a lot that is difficult to do purely on paper, unless one is Beethoven composing the 9th Symphony.


----------



## Saxer (Jun 5, 2017)

I do both in Logic. More 'postproduction' for printing out the score (dynamics, beaming, articulations etc) but I can have a look at the mockup-score all the time. Mockup and score share about 80% of the workflow. It's one of the main reasons I use Logic (and Apple).


----------



## markstyles (Jun 29, 2017)

Logic and I'm sure all the other DAWs give you plenty of options to quantize to a template.. or control the % of quantization.. Whey not write it out, and then play it?


----------



## dstorfer (Nov 5, 2017)

JasonMP said:


> ... I can't yet apply music theory to the piano keyboard other than for basic major/minor scales and chords without laboring over it (e.g. I have to "locate" the 6th or 7th without just intuitively knowing where it is.) It sounds like I need to study Cubase more and play around with all the quantizing features. ...




I know this is an old thread but I just wanted to add a point that it sounds like you should spend some time (years) learning more about music, and probably taking piano lessons as well. You'd be best served by a pop/jazz teacher who will teach you about chords and structures and not just how to robot play classical music. 
After that, then your priority could be more about Cubase. 

It's a little like not knowing anything about how to work a pro camera (ISO, F-stops, shutter speed), and not learning the artistic composition of taking photos, but prioritizing learning how to work every detail in Photoshop. 

You should not expect to create quality work without years of hard work, learning, and experience.


----------

