# Behringer Launches Bizarre Attack on Music Journalist Peter Kirn (CDM)



## Reid Rosefelt (Mar 2, 2020)

Apparently Kirn wrote things about Behringer's business practices that they didn't like, so they created a really weird, elaborate, and insulting social media attack, including a video and many posts. They also trademarked Kirn's name. Kirn is also the co-creator of MeeBlip synths.






The response from the Twitterverse has not been positive, to say the least, and Behringer has deleted their posts and video.

More info at *MUSICTECH*.


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## JEPA (Mar 2, 2020)

SHAME ON BEHRINGER... kindergarten.


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## Gerbil (Mar 2, 2020)

Twats


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 2, 2020)

Sign of the times. What were the shady business practices he was writing about?


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## pderbidge (Mar 2, 2020)

I have some Behringer products that I like but wouldn't necessarily defend their willingness to create knock off versions of popular products from other manufacturers. Especially before they bought MIDAS.
Still, I find it a bit amusing when companies try to attack Behringer (not this journalist which is different because it's basically his job to report and offer up critique on the industry) for those practices when I've seen all of them be guilty from time to time of the same practice. Still, it's probably fair to say that Behringer has been the worst offender in the past.

Edit. I probably should read the article because I have no idea if what I said here is part of his criticism.

One more Edit- I guess this is more about their synths. Kirn should be thanking Behringer. He will get more views on his article than if Behringer had not done this.


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## RasmusFors (Mar 2, 2020)

Super shady and immoral business practices aside, that artwork is seriously disturbing. Who drew it and why didn’t anyone in their marketing team speak up? Why would you want to associate your company with this kind of anti-semitic imagery?


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## Jan16 (Mar 2, 2020)

Behringer:
“Please allow me to respond to the video we had published today. For the past 20 years, Peter Kirn and Behringer have had an ‘interesting’ relationship to say the least. 
What was meant as pure satire by our marketing department, has clearly offended some people and looking at the video, I could understand why. However, in no way did the team ever intend to make any connection to semitism, as some people have alleged.

We unreservedly apologize to Peter and anyone who felt offended.

Uli”


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## chimuelo (Mar 2, 2020)

Never heard of Kirn before Behringer elevated his status.
I ONLY read SOS reviews because they pissed off Harman and Behringer by giving UN favorable reviews of gear. Years ago a big distributor whose name started with an A threatened SOS would never get gear for review again, etc.
Plus my old fav reviewer got a gig at Media Ventures years ago.

Guess I’ll go read this guy with a big nose reviews now.

Ah, they likely worked this out together since all of those fake CS80 threads are tiresome and ineffective.
This adds a spark to the kindling...


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## José Herring (Mar 2, 2020)

I don't see how people got anti-semitic from this. I just got Pinocchio. Though I never heard of Kirn I just assumed that as all journalist do, he exaggerated some claim to make a story more appealing. I now want to read the article so if I were Kirn I'd be jumping up and down with joy that people are now actually interested in what he is saying. Also, tons of free advertising for Behringer. It's a win win.


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## Gerbil (Mar 3, 2020)

It's not anti-semitic. It's just the sort of stuff that should be kept in the house. It's unprofessional.

I say all that as a massive hypocrit because I laughed my arse off years ago at that Garritan comic strip.


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## ptram (Mar 3, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I don't see how people got anti-semitic from this.


I’m sure it is involuntary, but the typical nazi depiction of the Jews was bearded, grinning men with big noses and the hands like claws.

Paolo


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## R. Soul (Mar 3, 2020)

ptram said:


> I’m sure it is involuntary, but the typical nazi depiction of the Jews was bearded, grinning men with big noses and the hands like claws.
> 
> Paolo



Grin and beard seems to match, and I don't think the hands looks like claws.
Makes sense that the nose is long to emphasise 'cork sniffer', right?

Anyway, I don't really want to defend Behringer. I just think anti-semitism is a bit far fethed.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Mar 3, 2020)

R. Soul said:


> Grin and beard seems to match, and I don't think the hands looks like claws.
> Makes sense that the nose is long to emphasise 'cork sniffer', right?
> 
> Anyway, I don't really want to defend Behringer. I just think anti-semitism is a bit far fethed.


The intent is obvious: Kirn is a lying Pinocchio who sees the worst in everything. But, if you go online, you will see that several people have called it racist or anti-Semitic. The perception is there, no matter whether it's a fair response or not.

I absolutely felt that it looked disturbingly like Nazi propaganda, and more recently, anti-Muslim imagery, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt because it would be insane for them to consciously alienate their Jewish customers in such a huge way. Whether you see the connection depends on how many pieces of Nazi propaganda you've been exposed to in your life. As a Jew, I've been shown that stuff since I was a child. I didn't mention it in my original post because I didn't think it was intended to be anti-Semitic. It was a thoughtless mistake. 

However, as a German company, I think they particularly should be very aware of these things when they use social media for their messaging, where the outrage machine can quickly leap into action. As it has.

I don't see Behringer as racist or anti-Semitic, but I do see them as insensitive. The whole idea of this attack on Kirn was a mistake, but the style of the caricature only made it worse. They shouldn't be putting things out into the world that have any risk of making less people want to buy their products. 

By the way, in true Behringer tradition, it was a ripoff of somebody else's design.


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## C.R. Rivera (Mar 3, 2020)

ptram said:


> I’m sure it is involuntary, but the typical nazi depiction of the Jews was bearded, grinning men with big noses and the hands like claws.
> 
> Paolo


Well, let us not be exclusive on other cultures, besides nazis, doing this exact same thing.









Anti-Semitism Is Deepening Among Muslims; Hateful Images of Jews Are Embedded In Islamic Popular Culture (Published 2002)


Anti-Semitism is embedded in mainstream in Islamic world, with depictions of Nazi imagery in popular press and academic journals; many Islamic scholars say Arab-Israeli conflict has been transformed in Muslim culture to cosmic war between good and evil; because conflict has lasted so long, many...




www.nytimes.com


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## ptram (Mar 3, 2020)

C.R. Rivera said:


> Well, let us not be exclusive on other cultures, besides nazis, doing this exact same thing.


Stereotypes survive the passage across cultures, without losing their inner violence. This is why they have to be managed very carefully, when trying to do "satire".

Paolo


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## tonaliszt (Mar 3, 2020)

Absolutely disgusting. 


TigerTheFrog said:


> However, as a German company, I think they particularly should be very aware of these things when they use social media for their messaging, where the outrage machine can quickly leap into action. As it has.


As a German company, it's horrifying to see them use such imagery. Inexcusable.


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## davidson (Mar 3, 2020)

R. Soul said:


> Grin and beard seems to match, and I don't think the hands looks like claws.
> Makes sense that the nose is long to emphasise 'cork sniffer', right?
> 
> Anyway, I don't really want to defend Behringer. I just think anti-semitism is a bit far fethed.



Regardless of what he wrote about behringer, he kinda deserves it for wearing his shirt like a 70's porn star.


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## babylonwaves (Mar 3, 2020)

davidson said:


> Regardless of what he wrote about behringer, he kinda deserves it for wearing his shirt like a 70's porn star.


what? the t-shirt is the best thing in this entire thread!


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## ed buller (Mar 3, 2020)

What a truly awful thing to do. They where wining people over at last after years of being rightly maligned for making crap then they go and do this !!!!...unforgivable really.

e


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## gamma-ut (Mar 3, 2020)

R. Soul said:


> Grin and beard seems to match, and I don't think the hands looks like claws.
> Makes sense that the nose is long to emphasise 'cork sniffer', right?
> 
> Anyway, I don't really want to defend Behringer. I just think anti-semitism is a bit far fethed.



Although I think they were clearly going for the Pinocchio thing, the trouble is the graphic bears a striking similarity to a meme that goes by the name of "le happy merchant" that does the rounds in places like the fever swamps of 4Chan's somewhat right-wing /pol group. Behringer f'd up so badly they had no idea how badly.


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## José Herring (Mar 3, 2020)

Gerbil said:


> It's not anti-semitic. It's just the sort of stuff that should be kept in the house. It's unprofessional.
> 
> I say all that as a massive hypocrit because I laughed my arse off years ago at that Garritan comic strip.


That cartoon is a classic! VI Control history. 

But, I agree. As entertaining as that can be it should be kept off of public lines.


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## gamma-ut (Mar 3, 2020)

ed buller said:


> What a truly awful thing to do. They where wining people over at last after years of being rightly maligned for making crap then they go and do this !!!!...unforgivable really.
> 
> e



They're not exactly new to it. They launched a ridiculous lawsuit against Dave Smith Instruments, which I think got thrown straight out of court by the judge for being laughably flimsy, and a libel suit against a Chinese company, Midifan, that said Behringer copies stuff...which is pretty much what they do and is the core reason why people are buying those synths. If they weren't clones of classics, far fewer people would be paying attention.

It was Kirn writing about these cases that put Uli B on the warpath. I guess nobody in the company tells him when he's had a crap idea.


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## Iswhatitis (Mar 3, 2020)

RasmusFors said:


> Super shady and immoral business practices aside, that artwork is seriously disturbing. Who drew it and why didn’t anyone in their marketing team speak up? Why would you want to associate your company with this kind of anti-semitic imagery?


IMHfvckingO:

When WWII ended loads of Nazis who were running the industrial complex throughout Germany were allowed to remain in power after the war ended. It’s mind boggling that the German divisions of American companies that were in Germany and helping the German war machine during WWII actually had the nerve to sue the American Government for damages done to their factories during WWII and they won too. How corrupt and preposterous is that!! I’m not saying every German is a Nazi at all, but it’s not like the Nazi influence and ideology just evaporated. And, clearly there are many closet Americans who share this psychotic Nazi nostalgia, we even see it surfacing in new Netflix series.

Elitism, bigotry, racism, and the desire for power is not something that happens to disappear just because one wins the Civil War, WWII or the Civil Rights movement’s legislation. There have always been sick fvckheads throughout society and in positions of power since the dawn of time. It is significantly important that good people rise up against this scourge of evil, ignorance and inhumanity.

Behringer can claim they were joking, but there’s always truth behind comedy and sarcasm. So if anyone is using comedy or sarcasm to put people down in an inhuman way, you can be sure some of these people at Behringer are more than closet Nazi sympathizers, anti-semites and racists. I’ve never bought a German car in my life and I never will. I wasn’t surprised when the entire German Auto Industry was caught in a fraudulent lying scheme about there fake clean diesel cars emissions. The car industry dominates the German economy. I’ve never bought a Behringer product in my life and I never will. Let’s hope others follow suit and send this company of losers into bankruptcy! Then they can go work for those loser German car companies. I would never trust anything a German car manufacturer ever claims again and I would never line the pockets of the founders of those companies whose families were all in the Nazi party. The sad reality is that Hitler always felt America was the hope for his racist agenda if Nazi Germany failed. Let’s do more than hope he is wrong, let’s boycott any business who behaves in grotesque ways like Behringer.

Sadly, most large corporations are corrupt to the core as absolute power corrupts absolutely regardless of which country that corporation resides in. Apple uses child labor in China. Microsoft stole Apple OS look and feel. Insurance companies of all kinds deny legitimate claims every day to line their pockets with greed. The billionaire class owns the American government and our court system. GM chose to let people die from a known faulty ignition switch because the class action lawsuit that followed was going to be cheaper to pay out than recalling the affected autos and preventing further unnecessary deaths. Enron had no issue scamming the energy industry with false financials. The pharmaceutical companies continue to raise prescription drug prices beyond excess because they own the politicians who could stop them and won’t so their CEOs and shareholders can continue to rape the public for profits. The oil and gas industry’s use of fracking will permanently destroy the natural water supplies underground by contaminating the aquifer with the release of methane gas. The chemical companies that use PFAS are permanently destroying and making toxic all water sources on the planet, etc, etc etc......... There is no end to the corruption and evil that pervades this world.


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## gamma-ut (Mar 3, 2020)

That escalated quickly.


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## jsheaucsb (Mar 3, 2020)

I'm out for life. Lost me as a customer for sure!


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## Brasart (Mar 3, 2020)

To people saying they don't understand how this could be attributed to anti-semitism; have you never seen nazi propaganda cartoons or are you just blatantly ignorant?

You don't get to replicate this kind of imagery and feign ignorance.


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## Brasart (Mar 3, 2020)

And ignorant was the nicest word I could find to describe these posters, but that's not where my heart's at.


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## José Herring (Mar 3, 2020)

Brasart said:


> And ignorant was the nicest word I could find to describe these posters, but that's not where my heart's at.


It's a no win argument. All I was saying is that I just didn't see it. But, I don't make it a habit of looking at Anti-Semitic propaganda so I wouldn't know it if I did see it. 

I'm perfectly willing to accept that some people do see it and in that regard Uli has damaged his company by either being really petty and stupid or just by being willfully hateful. Either way, It's not my place to defend the company which I've always held in low regard anyway.


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## Jan16 (Mar 3, 2020)

I don’t know, it comes across to me as Kirn getting under the skin of Behringer and Behringer getting back at him, not some kind of anti Semitic sentiment.
Have you seen a picture of Peter Kirn?
Behringer’s caricature shows a long Pinocchio nose growing on a face which looks a lot like a cartoon version of Peter Kirn and the message insinuated is pretty obvious: Kirn is a liar.
I think that’s all there’s to it.


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## Technostica (Mar 3, 2020)

Brasart said:


> To people saying they don't understand how this could be attributed to anti-semitism; have you never seen nazi propaganda cartoons or are you just blatantly ignorant?


I've never knowingly seen any such cartoons and the only thing that came to mind was Pinocchio.
Calling people ignorant for not being aware of 80+ year old cartoons from what will be another continent for most people is silly.
Many people know about the Nazi atrocities but not such fine details.


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## bill5 (Mar 3, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I don't see how people got anti-semitic from this. I just got Pinocchio.


Dude. It's the 21st century. Being offended is all the rage. Justification and rational thought not required, to put it mildly. Just look for any excuse to jump on that high moral horse and get in a self-righteous snit, then watch everyone scatter like scared rabbits. 

Speaking of which: Pinocchio?? How dare you. I'm offended. Nose-ist!

This is a stale breeze people are calling a hurricane. Rather tedious and ridiculous but hardly surprising in this day and age.


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## chimuelo (Mar 3, 2020)

As the only TransGender Sicilian Jew in this thread I conclude it’s fake racism.

Some folks like to be offended for others, who don’t seem to be offended.
These are the more delicate flowers in our neighbors garden.

Dont buy his gear, but while your making all this noise over nothing, you might get a free clone.
Hope you get the fake CS80 due out in 2028...


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## bill5 (Mar 3, 2020)

chimuelo said:


> As the only TransGender Sicilian Jew in this thread


And how do you know that? You...you....something-ist


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## robgb (Mar 3, 2020)

Kinda sad when people can't see a clear Pinocchio reference in that artwork. But, hey, let's make it something it isn't because we live in the age of outrage. Behringer was childish and dumb for doing this in the first place, but the reaction to it is equally dumb. Don't we have better ways to waste our time?


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## vitocorleone123 (Mar 3, 2020)

I continue to have zero interest in ever owning anything Behringer.


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## Polkasound (Mar 3, 2020)

I don't believe for one second that Behringer had any idea their posts would be interpreted as anti-Semitic. There are plenty of us who have an understanding of the antisemitism of the WWII era, but we must also concede that for younger generations, it's unfortunately nothing more than a forgettable chapter in a college text book. I'm willing to bet that before they pulled down their posts, the bewildered folks at Behringer had to look up Nazi propaganda images on the internet to see what all the fuss was about.

I am a big fan of satire, but satire only works when the humor behind it is enjoyed by many. Poking fun at cork sniffers is funny. Poking fun at politicians and world-renown celebrities is funny. But singling out a lone journalist and publicly poking fun at him because you don't like or agree with him is not satire. It's spite.

I'm chalking this one up to a lapse in judgement on Behringer's part, and nothing more.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Mar 4, 2020)

@Mike Greene please move this thread over to the "Off Topics - Political - Enter at Own Risk!" forum.


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## chimuelo (Mar 4, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> @Mike Greene please move this thread over to the "Off Topics - Political - Enter at Own Risk!" forum.



But we’re still talking about anti Semitic synths aren’t we?


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## robgb (Mar 4, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I continue to have zero interest in ever owning anything Behringer.


They make some good products.


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## vitocorleone123 (Mar 4, 2020)

robgb said:


> They make some good products.


I think there’s better products made by better companies. Or at least different products by better companies. I’m not on a crusade - everyone is capable of making their own decisions. I’ve said my piece and will bow out.


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## robgb (Mar 4, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I think there’s better products made by better companies.


Not at affordable prices. A couple years back I bought an audio interface with MIDAS preamps that sounds as good as many products in higher price categories. I don't know what their business practices are, but if you or anyone is concerned about them stealing ideas or cloning other products, welcome to the world of business. If you have an objection against that kind of behavior, then you should never use Windows, because Gates ripped off that idea from Apple, who, in turn, ripped off the idea from Xerox. So you probably shouldn't be using MacOS either. (Oh, and they all ripped off technology from a bunch of hippies in San Francisco)

We don't live in a perfect world. Never have, never will. But if we're going to criticize and refuse to buy products from one, we should refuse to buy from the others, as well. Which would pretty much put us out of business as modern composers. Moral relativism is a tricky thing.


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## MartinH. (Mar 4, 2020)

Brasart said:


> To people saying they don't understand how this could be attributed to anti-semitism; have you never seen nazi propaganda cartoons or are you just blatantly ignorant?
> 
> You don't get to replicate this kind of imagery and feign ignorance.



I have googled that "le happy merchant" meme that was mentioned and flipping back and forth between it and the cork sniffer caricature I really don't see that "striking similarity". Both have dark hair and a beard, but that's about it. The nose is shaped differently, the hair style is different, the teeth are different, the posture is different, only one is wearing glasses, they don't look in the same direction.

Are you thinking of other anti semitic drawings that we may not know? I've seen the meme before, but I'm certainly no expert on anti-semitic imagery. Please share with us the image that you think they are referencing. 


That said, I think it was a tremendously stupid move by Behringer, because now some random Jackass could take the "le happy merchant" meme and put it on a fake "behringer shekel maker" pedal and claim that it's a "worrying prototype, stolen from behringer's R&D department" and the already angry mob on twitter would signal-boost the fuck out of it and the more Behringer denies it, and tries to make the fake news go away, the more guilty they will look. A competent 3D artist could easily whip something like this up in a day or two and even fake a shaky phone video of the pedal on a desk or something like that. If it's done well, only a VFX pro would be able to tell it's fake. And no one wants to fact check anything anyway.

If you're thinking about doing this now, please don't! This outrage culture stuff has gotten way out of hand. I don't think any company deserves to go down over one poor taste marketing stunt and I'm sure lessons were learned from this.


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## DivingInSpace (Mar 5, 2020)

Jesus christ, the whole anti semitism thing is just people wanting this to be anti semitism.

I just saw a video of someone destroying their behringer synth with a hammer. Our planet is dying and people are destroying perfectly fine electronics over a stupid video? Please fucking recycle it instead.


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## brynolf (Mar 6, 2020)

RasmusFors said:


> Super shady and immoral business practices aside, that artwork is seriously disturbing. Who drew it and why didn’t anyone in their marketing team speak up? Why would you want to associate your company with this kind of anti-semitic imagery?


Antisemitic? Drawing a long nose is supposed to be a "LIAR LIAR" thing.


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## Gerbil (Mar 6, 2020)

DivingInSpace said:


> Jesus christ, the whole anti semitism thing is just people wanting this to be anti semitism.
> 
> I just saw a video of someone destroying their behringer synth with a hammer.


Just when things couldn't get dumber.


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## tonaliszt (Mar 6, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Are you thinking of other anti semitic drawings that we may not know? I've seen the meme before, but I'm certainly no expert on anti-semitic imagery. Please share with us the image that you think they are referencing.


Visit a Holocaust Museum. 

When a group of people say that something is offensive to them, it's really not a good look to argue with them.


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## Polkasound (Mar 6, 2020)

brynolf said:


> Antisemitic? Drawing a long nose is supposed to be a "LIAR LIAR" thing.



I believe that's what it was intended to be, but to Behringer's detriment, the imagery just happened to be similar to anti-Semitic Nazi propaganda. Instead of giving Behringer the benefit of the doubt, some people began lambasting the company for being anti-Semitic.



DivingInSpace said:


> Jesus christ, the whole anti semitism thing is just people wanting this to be anti semitism.



I believe this is unfortunately true. In my opinion, this is just one more manifestation of the SJW movement where people are searching for reasons to be triggered because their hypersensitive reactions produce a satisfying feeling of righteousness. Instead of looking at a situation from various angles and attempting to make a sound judgement, they go right for the endorphin rush by jumping into their SJW battle suits and going on the attack.

(Now if you'll all excuse me, I need to publicly smash and burn all of my AT&T products because their inability to come out and fix my landline in less than 48 hours is obviously an act of discrimination against musicians of Polish and German descent...)


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## robgb (Mar 6, 2020)

tonaliszt said:


> When a group of people say that something is offensive to them, it's really not a good look to argue with them.



If something is purposely meant to be offensive to a certain group, then you absolutely shouldn't argue with them. But people—especially people who have been persecuted in the past (and I'm not speaking only about Jewish people)—sometimes find offense in things that aren't even targeting them. Even some Christians—who have had it pretty good in my country—are offended by pro-Gay sentiment and feel it targets their beliefs. So are we supposed to avoid arguing about that subject as well?

To me the picture reminds me of Pinocchio's long nose. I've seen many drawings of anti-Jewish propaganda coming out of Germany and elsewhere in the thirties and the images are very offensive, but not close to Pinocchio at all. I think it's clear that the liar nose is what Behringer was going for, and any other interpretation is tenuous at best.

That said, again, Behringer was DUMB to do it. Any business that goes after any critic in any way is being stupid.


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## José Herring (Mar 6, 2020)

robgb said:


> That said, again, Behringer was DUMB to do it. Any business that goes after any critic in any way is being stupid.



Going after him if he is slandering the company is not a bad thing. Behringer has a right to speak up against his critics. He just did it in the most childish way possible. Instead of providing facts to dispute any argument they had against whatever Kirn wrote (and in truth I haven't been able to find what he wrote against Behringer), they just went for infintile slander that doesn't befit a company of their stature.

I think that the company in the past few years went from this semi-pro cheap provider of amature gear that nobody was paying attention to through to being a serious threat and being the next Yamaha or Tascam. I don't think they know how to deal with that. He took a chance on synths and then that exploded. They are major players still acting like college frat boys.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Mar 6, 2020)

Links...

MusicTech - 11 Things You Need to Know About the History of Behringer and Peter Kirn

Vice - A Major Synth Company Created This Fake Product to Attack a Journalist


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## MartinH. (Mar 6, 2020)

tonaliszt said:


> Visit a Holocaust Museum.
> 
> When a group of people say that something is offensive to them, it's really not a good look to argue with them.



I have politely asked to see an example, because I don't see the similarity. I followed your advice to look at historic antisemitic caricatures, but the noses always have a specific shape and usually point downward. Like this example on the right:

[image removed at request]


I simply don't see how this has "striking similarity" and can't possibly be anything but an antisemitic caricature of Kirn. I want to at least understand you group of people that are offended by this. Is it the sinister smile of the left one? I don't think it would be reasonable or fair to attribute that to antisemitic imagery alone. That would be such a huge detriment to political caracature as a whole.


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## José Herring (Mar 6, 2020)

@MartinH. I really don't see the need to post hateful racist propaganda and I would urge you to remove that image.


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## MartinH. (Mar 6, 2020)

@josejherring: I'll honor your request, but I don't see how it's possible to have a constructive debate about political carricature and "where the line is", if no one is willing or allowed to A/B the image in question and an actual antisemitic caricature.


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## gamma-ut (Mar 6, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I have politely asked to see an example, because I don't see the similarity. I followed your advice to look at historic antisemitic caricatures, but the noses always have a specific shape and usually point downward. Like this example on the right:
> 
> I simply don't see how this has "striking similarity" and can't possibly be anything but an antisemitic caricature of Kirn. I want to at least understand you group of people that are offended by this. Is it the sinister smile of the left one? I don't think it would be reasonable or fair to attribute that to antisemitic imagery alone. That would be such a huge detriment to political caracature as a whole.



I assume you are referring to my earlier post. If it offends you, please delete "striking". I had no idea someone might take a bit of alliteration entirely seriously and would interpret it as me saying Behringer took a piece of neo-Nazi imagery and slapped it on on a mockup without changes.

While you are taking things literally, you might notice I actually wrote: "Although I think they were clearly going for the Pinocchio thing..." as the preamble. However, when I saw the grinning image with the hands I thought they had got accidentally close to the meme to which I referred. I simply wrote that to explain why people thought it was anti-semitic and I again apologise profusely for upsetting you with the adjective "striking". I shall of course take into account in future the needs of people who take things literally without actually reading entire sentences.

However, you clearly found that meme earlier so I don't see why you suddenly saw the need to post actual Nazi propaganda just so you can point out a Pinocchio nose is different.


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## gamma-ut (Mar 6, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> @josejherring: I'll honor your request, but I don't see how it's possible to have a constructive debate about political carricature and "where the line is", if no one is willing or allowed to A/B the image in question and an actual antisemitic caricature.



Yes, you want a constructive debate. Of course you do.


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## MartinH. (Mar 6, 2020)

gamma-ut said:


> I assume you are referring to my earlier post. If it offends you, please delete "striking". I had no idea someone might take a bit of alliteration entirely seriously and would interpret it as me saying Behringer took a piece of neo-Nazi imagery and slapped it on on a mockup without changes.
> 
> While you are taking things literally, you might notice I actually wrote: "Although I think they were clearly going for the Pinocchio thing..." as the preamble. However, when I saw the grinning image with the hands I thought they had got accidentally close to the meme to which I referred. I simply wrote that to explain why people thought it was anti-semitic and I again apologise profusely for upsetting you with the adjective "striking". I shall of course take into account in future the needs of people who take things literally without actually reading entire sentences.
> 
> However, you clearly found that meme earlier so I don't see why you suddenly saw the need to post actual Nazi propaganda just so you can point out a Pinocchio nose is different.



No reason to apologize at all! That post of your's you are referring to didn't offend me in any way and was helpful in finding that image that people seemed to think of. The thing is, in my memory the merchant meme looked a lot closer to the caricature of Kirn than upon direct comparison it actually does (to me personally), if you know what I mean. I thought maybe the actual nazi caricatures that people were talking about but unwilling to link an example of, looked closer to Kirn, but I couldn't find any that _to me personally_ did look like him. 
I apologize for any language related awkwardness on my part, English is a second language for me.
I really don't want to stir up any trouble here and didn't think that the image I posted would cause such a negative reaction. I apologize for my lapse of judgement, and I assure you that I'm not remotely right leaning in any way and I'll stress again that I said what Behringer did was stupid.


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## Technostica (Mar 6, 2020)

I imagine that the vast majority of people under 60 who aren't Jewish didn't make a connection with anti-Semitism.
But I wonder how many people who saw the potential connection and also noted the Pinocchio nose and the generic cartoon traits thought that it was actually anti-Semetic?
Still potentially hurtful for some but with no intent I see no foul here.


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## robgb (Mar 6, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Going after him if he is slandering the company is not a bad thing.


True, but slander isn't criticism.


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## schrodinger1612 (Mar 6, 2020)

Stupid move by Beringer, but it’s just a bearded man with glasses, it’s not like he’s sporting long sideburns and a kippah


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## C.R. Rivera (Mar 6, 2020)

robgb said:


> If something is purposely meant to be offensive to a certain group, then you absolutely shouldn't argue with them.


That, however, can be taken to an extreme of nonsense. In the US we have a comedy show in which one episode demonstrated that effect.


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## Henu (Mar 6, 2020)

tonaliszt said:


> When a group of people say that something is offensive to them, it's really not a good look to argue with them.



I wholefully disagree, and so does Stephen Fry.


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 7, 2020)

Brasart said:


> To people saying they don't understand how this could be attributed to anti-semitism; have you never seen nazi propaganda cartoons or are you just blatantly ignorant?
> 
> You don't get to replicate this kind of imagery and feign ignorance.


its literally pinnochio.

I don't think peter kirn is even jewish, so going out of your way to decide that's antisemetic is a bigger stretch than the yoga my girlfriend tries to get me to do.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong on his ethnicity - but it's even more ridiculous considering the racism wouldn't even fit the target. Would be like some obscure thing like handing an Asian man a banana and trying to play it off like some sort of racist dog whistle as if he were black.


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 7, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> There is more modern day hatred, envy, jealousy, bigotry, shallowness, narcissism, racism, anti-semitism, and prejudice in the world than anyone can fathom. If one wants to tackle these energies being a stand up comic or comedy writer/actor is the best way to diffuse it.
> 
> However, given the historical hatred in France and England of Jews and the murder of 6 million Jews by Germans and Austrians, I have zero tolerance when a non-comedian German corporation (Behringer) engages in any kind of racist or anti-Semitic humor.
> 
> ...


1.) I don't think I saw anyone in the entire thread defending Behringer
2.) Many of us are simply pointing out that it's not anti semetic.
3.) You also just lobbed actual racist beliefs against people from 2 countries.
4.) There is a whole lot more _" hatred, envy, jealousy, bigotry, shallowness, narcissism, racism, anti-semitism, and prejudice" _when you go out of your way to see it in everything.
5.) Nice of you to "censor" the "F" word with a single character while also calling people names and making prejudice statements based on literally on nationality. Might be time to go take a walk, look into a mirror, eat lunch, or whatever you need to do in order to calm down.


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## Jan16 (Mar 7, 2020)

The whole anti Semitism in the Behringer cartoon is just cloud gazing: you see things in the clouds that your mind projects.
In my opinion there’s nothing more to it.


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## LinusW (Mar 7, 2020)

Jan16 said:


> Behringer:
> “Please allow me to respond to the video we had published today. For the past 20 years, Peter Kirn and Behringer have had an ‘interesting’ relationship to say the least.
> What was meant as pure satire by our marketing department, has clearly offended some people and looking at the video, I could understand why. However, in no way did the team ever intend to make any connection to semitism, as some people have alleged.
> 
> ...


...and the day after they also removed this post. I have had enough with Behringer.


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## C.R. Rivera (Mar 7, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> 1.) I don't think I saw anyone in the entire thread defending Behringer
> 2.) Many of us are simply pointing out that it's not anti semetic.
> 3.) You also just lobbed actual racist beliefs against people from 2 countries.
> 4.) There is a whole lot more _" hatred, envy, jealousy, bigotry, shallowness, narcissism, racism, anti-semitism, and prejudice" _when you go out of your way to see it in everything.
> 5.) Nice of you to "censor" the "F" word with a single character while also calling people names and making prejudice statements based on literally on nationality. Might be time to go take a walk, look into a mirror, eat lunch, or whatever you need to do in order to calm down.


He forgot how the Chinese love the Uighers, and how they also love the Japanese. And, how central and western Europe loved the Mongols, or, how the Spanish loved the peaceful liberation in 711, on and on and on. By the way, he also forgot to mention that Canadians are polite and peaceful people of the world, and if you disagree with that premise, they barrage you with Timbits. [tongue in cheek]


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## Polkasound (Mar 7, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> ...a large corporation publicly using comedy and satire to demonstrate their racist and anti-Semitic beliefs.



You're clearly assuming Behringer's satire was intentionally anti-Semitic. But... what if it wasn't? What if some naive people at the company simply drew up a funny-looking Pinocchio-like caricature to poke fun at that reporter, and had no idea it would ever get misinterpreted as being racist? Do you really think any prominent company like Behringer, who enjoys global sales, would risk losing their entire business by purposely creating and publicly promoting racist propaganda in today's world?

Let's say you drew a picture of a flower from memory, embellished the petals with a little artistic flair, and posted it on Facebook. But then a few people noted that it looked similar to a logo used by a South American drug cartel. Suddenly it goes viral and thousands of people all over the world are publicly slamming you for being a drug pusher. According to your own logic, you _must_ be a drug pusher, because there's no way the flower's resemblance to the cartel's logo could be purely coincidental.

Obviously you're not a drug pusher, but I also believe in giving Behringer the same benefit of the doubt.


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## brenneisen (Mar 7, 2020)

C.R. Rivera said:


> and if you disagree with that premise, they barrage you with Timbits.



while apologizing, of course

sorry


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## ism (Mar 7, 2020)

tonaliszt said:


> Visit a Holocaust Museum.
> 
> When a group of people say that something is offensive to them, it's really not a good look to argue with them.



It's important of course to be sensitive by the anti-Semitic trope of caricatured nose size, common in racists cartoons from the 19th century through Nazi propaganda and sadly very much alive today.

But also, in my friend and one time (very cool) bass player David used to laugh about the size of his 'shnoz' at band practice. He was writing a PhD on the holocaust at the time, and was himself devoutly Jewish. So it's ok to be relaxed about these things too in the absence of any actually anti-Semitic context.

And the trope of this Beheringer cartoon is clearly a Pinoccio reference, whether to the Italian myth or the Disney version. The single similarity with the anti-semetic trope is extremely superficial.

Of course, the nature of signification and meaning is , by its nature, fluid, even slippery. Which make it possible to distort just about anything into meaning just about anything else (witness the witch trial in that Python film - "if she weights the same as a duck ... she's a witch", satirize the use of power to create these connections of meaning is invalid ways).

I'd argue that it's important to understand the anti-Semitic trope in broader context - which is to say that there just really isn't anything here substantial to suggest anything other that a straightforward pinocchio reference. Which is an even more common, and frequently useful trope to out a liar.



And it's also important to reign in these unjustified connections precisely because this kind of over-reading of a superficial similarity risks diluting the important ability to respond forcefully and with genuine outrange to combat actual anti-semitism.

Sort of a "boy who cried wolf" effect.


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## ism (Mar 7, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> And, for those who say this has nothing to do with anti-semitism and is only about some Pinocchio 🤥 liar liar pants on fire 🔥 reference. It’s highly inappropriate for a major company to be attacking an individual journalist in that way too having nothing to do with racism. There is no way one can examine what Behringer did as a good thing. It’s horrible business and completely inappropriate behavior for a company to engage in.




It is highly inappropriate.

But is it not also highly inappropriate for punters on the internet to use a superficial and unjustified similarly to a completely different anti-semetic trope and use it to support their own attack on a company they want to punish for something unrelated to the much more serious sin of anti-semitism.

Again, it may strengthen the short term pleasure of attacking Behringer , but it comes at the longer term cost of weakening legitimate outrage at actual anti-semitism.


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## robgb (Mar 7, 2020)

Polkasound said:


> You're clearly assuming Behringer's satire was intentionally anti-Semitic.


I haven't for a minute ever thought it was UNintentionally anti-Semitic. How hard is it for people see that it's Pinocchio? I really don't see how it could be mistaken for anything else unless you already despise Behringer and you need more reason to justify it.


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## Jan16 (Mar 7, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> If they did nothing wrong then why did Behringer remove it and apologize? If you can’t realize how utterly inappropriate it was for Behringer to engage in these type of tropes and attacks on a journalist then you’ve got some major problems. Attacking a journalist directly is just not appropriate for any corporation to do. It’s incredibly petty and small minded. Clearly, Behringer disagrees with your stupidity and lack of character.


I think your replies are a whole lot more offensive and insulting than the whole Behringer thing.

Uli Behringer is a human being with human character traits.
He goes online a gets a whole lot of anger vented at him and his company.
So, it could happen he gets angry and where he should have shown restraint decides otherwise.
Not wise, but understandable.
It is not wise because it is not just about Uli the person, but Behringer the company which reacts, and he should realize that.
So what? He makes mistakes like all of us.

I am not the kind of person who holds someone's mistakes/shortcomings against that person and I am not going to make this bigger than it is or invent an excuse to condemn him to hell.
If that is stupid in your eyes, great, let me be the stupidest person on the planet, I think a whole lot more good comes into this world by not reciprocating hate with hate and anger with anger.
If you DO, and everybody does that, the world will become an unlivable place.

Again, in my opinion it has nothing, nada, to do with anti Semitism.
You may get upset at the fact that I do not stare at the clouds and see the same thing as you do, but that's your problem, and I am not going to make it mine.


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## Polkasound (Mar 7, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> You can’t possible know. So why are you defending a German company that very well may have engaged in an anti-Semitic attack?



If you can't possibly know, then why are you prosecuting them and accusing them of racism instead of giving them any benefit of the doubt?

If you drew and posted a flower that happened to bear resemblance to a drug cartel's logo, and after it went viral everyone started verbally attacking you for being a drug pusher, wouldn't you prefer that people give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it was coincidental? If yes, why can't you do that for Behringer?


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## Mike Greene (Mar 7, 2020)

I've deleted a number of posts where things drifted into incivility. Those posts aside, the discussion thus far has been, in my opinion, very good, plus goings on with Behringer is a relevant topic, so I'd like to keep this thread here if possible, rather than moving it to the Drama Zone or Political section.


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## robgb (Mar 7, 2020)

Jan16 said:


> So what? He makes mistakes like all of us.


Unfortunately, we live in an era that public figures (and many others) are not allowed to make any mistakes ever. Now or in the distant past. The intolerance all across the political spectrum is staggering and disheartening.


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## ism (Mar 7, 2020)

robgb said:


> How hard is it for people see that it's Pinocchio? I really don't see how it could be mistaken for anything else unless you already despise Behringer and you need more reason to justify it.



Yes, it's clearly pinocchio. And at some point I don't think it's a wholly innocent mistake, but the discourse of anti-semitism being appropriate not out of any concern for actual anti-semitism (for which there is no evidence in this context at all), but for satisfaction of people wanting to just feel better about have having a stronger, more personally satisfying, attack on Behringer.

I even think at some point some point this sleight of hand appropriation might itself risk becoming, in effect, kind of anti-Semitic.


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## Polkasound (Mar 7, 2020)

robgb said:


> Unfortunately, we live in an era that public figures (and many others) are not allowed to make any mistakes ever. Now or in the distant past. The intolerance all across the political spectrum is staggering and disheartening.



Do you or anyone else remember what happened to meteorologist Jeremy Kappell a couple years ago? He meant to say "Martin Luther King Junior Day", but his tongue got tied up in the delivery, and in correcting himself, it came out "Martin Luther Kuhrn King Junior Day." Enough people made a clamor saying that he called MLK a "coon" and as a result, he was fired from his job. All because of a mistake that every other human being on earth makes from time to time.

This is what some of the comments in this thread remind me of. A company admittedly makes a boneheaded mistake, but the mistake gets blown way out of proportion and context, and the torches come out wanting to burn the company to the ground. Pitiful.


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## robgb (Mar 7, 2020)

Polkasound said:


> Do you or anyone else remember what happened to meteorologist Jeremy Kappell a couple years ago? He meant to say "Martin Luther King Junior Day", but his tongue got tied up in the delivery, and in correcting himself, it came out "Martin Luther Kuhrn King Junior Day." Enough people made a clamor saying that he called MLK a "coon" and as a result, he was fired from his job. All because of a mistake that every other human being on earth makes from time to time.
> 
> This is what some of the comments in this thread remind me of. A company admittedly makes a boneheaded mistake, but the mistake gets blown way out of proportion and context, and the torches come out wanting to burn the company to the ground. Pitiful.


I hadn't heard about this one, but I remember a female reporter saying that Kobe Bryant played for the Los Angeles Nakers (she was about to say Knicks and switched gears mid-word) and people accused her of saying the N word. There's a petition to get her fired with over a hundred thousand signatures. I don't think the network listened this time, but they easily could have.


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## Jan16 (Mar 7, 2020)

robgb said:


> Unfortunately, we live in an era that public figures (and many others) are not allowed to make any mistakes ever. Now or in the distant past. The intolerance all across the political spectrum is staggering and disheartening.


Yeah, the thing is, if people demand perfection, then no one qualifies for anything simply because it is human nature to make mistakes and do dumb things.
Maybe it can't hurt to look in the mirror every once in a while?


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## C.R. Rivera (Mar 7, 2020)

robgb said:


> I hadn't heard about this one, but I remember a female reporter saying that Kobe Bryant played for the Los Angeles Nakers (she was about to say Knicks and switched gears mid-word) and people accused her of saying the N word. There's a petition to get her fired with over a hundred thousand signatures. I don't think the network listened this time, but they easily could have.


Anybody here old enough to remember what happened to the Bee Gees in the late 1970s with the song "Too much Heaven". The line went "oh, you and me girl", but of course the easily offended cancel culture of that era eventually led Jesse Jackson to intervene on the band's behalf. Often people see AND hear what they want as an alternative fact instead of the truth.


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 7, 2020)

If behringer wants to play in the mud itll cost them a lot more than kirn. 

Poor business move for sure, but kirn I'm sure is enjoying the extra publicity - especially since much of it was accompanied by sympathy.


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## nolotrippen (Mar 7, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> Links...
> 
> MusicTech - 11 Things You Need to Know About the History of Behringer and Peter Kirn
> 
> Vice - A Major Synth Company Created This Fake Product to Attack a Journalist


Thanks for the link.


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 7, 2020)

nolotrippen said:


> Thanks for the link.



vice uses their platform to attack individuals so I'm not sure they have a leg to stand on here, but interesting read from music tech


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 7, 2020)

Honestly I think behringer's reputation is a harsh one to repair, their products were cheap. poorly made, and support was non existant. They may have changed over the years but I'll never know. 

This is just petty on a personal level


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## VivianaSings (Mar 7, 2020)

Behringer is garbage and I never use their stuff. I've no love for them but that doesn't change the fact that this wasn't anti-semitic. Uli has a history of pettiness and vindictiveness and that's what this was. 

But boy oh boy, there sure is a ton of projection in this thread...


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 7, 2020)

VivianaSings said:


> Behringer is garbage and I never use their stuff. I've no love for them but that doesn't change the fact that this wasn't anti-semitic. Uli has a history of pettiness and vindictiveness and that's what this was.
> 
> But boy oh boy, there sure is a ton of projection in this thread...


that is an actual caricature of the florida race for governor.


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## robgb (Mar 7, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> Behringer acting like it was only guilty for committing a bad attempt at satire and not meant to be anything else more subhuman and vengeful reminds of this coverup moment in history


I'm getting the distinct impression that you don't like Behringer...


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## Reid Rosefelt (Mar 8, 2020)

As a Jew who has spent time with holocaust survivors hearing their stories, and someone who is very knowledgable about these matters, I think I speak with some authority. I side 100% with the people who say it was not intentionally anti-Semitic.

For me, the real issue is that Behringer registered Kirn's name so that Kirn couldn't market his 10-year-old open-source product, the MeeBlip.

Kirn publishes all the information on meeBlip on the *github* and welcomes people around the world to use his technology, as long as they don't market it under the MeeBlip name. Behringer fully intended to sue Kirn to not only stop him from marketing the meeBlip, but from any music product, maybe even _any_ product.

Behringer ONLY backed down from trying to destroy Kirn's business because of the outrage. This is not only about a video. This is not only about a drawing.

This was not only about his relationship with Kirn. I believe Behringer was hoping to limit criticism of his business strategy, by scaring other music journalists (who mostly make a pittance and do it out of love) and make them feel that it is not worth it.

The criticism that came in about this affair was 95% about the unpleasantness of a big company "punching down" at a solitary journalist. Look online and you'll see that's true. Very, very few brought up anti-Semitism. But those that did had loud voices.

In terms of anti-Semitism, I think this: when you act in a mean-spirited way, there are some people who will assume the worst about what you do. Others will give you the benefit of the doubt no matter how you conduct your life. Hence the debate in this thread. I personally don't think the drawing was consciously made to look like Nazi propaganda.

To those of you who are so certain that it doesn't look like Nazi propaganda, I ask: why is this so important to you? Who cares? It's not my job to stop playing music and dig up a pile of documentary evidence that it does. It's not my responsibility to persuade you. It's a non-issue. I agree with you--he didn't intend it to look like an anti-Semitic cartoon.

What does matter to me is not his original intention, but his response.

When the criticism came in about the anti-Semitism, he could have made a quick and sincere apology. He did not. He made a "no-apology apology" that took no responsibility and satisfied no one. Then he quickly took his "apology" down.

By the way, he has chosen this time to announce his own DAW. It will be free. But it is 18 months away.


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## Michael Antrum (Mar 8, 2020)

The world has, quite literally, gone mad with looking for offence - not that many are offended themselves - but they are getting offended on someone else's behalf (which of course isn't patronising at all). 

People say and do stupid shit. If they are smart they apologise for it - yes I did/said something wrong/stupid and I shouldn't have - but large numbers of people want to ruin their lives/careers over it.

For those of you outside the UK who may have missed this, here is a clear example of this madness that only recently occurred. The Chancellor of the Exchequer put out a tweet that they were getting down to work on the new budget......






He is a Northern MP - So Yorkshire Tea is a fairly local manufacturer to his seat.

Here are some of the responses.....






As someone put it - they were shouting at tea......

I don't know how these people will cope when some serious life challenges come their way - I'm back in Sierra Leone later this month - a place where people who have real problems behave with a dignity we appear to have lost.

By the way, if anyone wants a masterclass in how to operate a corporate social media account, just see how this company responded :


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## Polkasound (Mar 8, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> When the criticism came in about the anti-Semitism, he could have made a quick and sincere apology. He did not. He made a "no-apology apology" that took no responsibility and satisfied no one. Then he quickly took his "apology" down.



Personally speaking, his apology was enough for me as far as the anti-Semitic claims were concerned. He stated very plainly that the caricature was not anti-Semitic, and apologized to anyone who felt offended for thinking it was. He kept it simple and to the point. If anyone needs _more_ of an apology from Behringer in regard to the alleged antisemitism, they should think about recalibrating the sensitivity of their hair triggers.

Behringer's big problem is that their public relations department apparently has not been granted the authority to regulate what the top brass says and does. The whole Kirn issue should have been run through their PR department and been met with a resounding NO, YOU ABSOLUTELY CANNOT POST THAT! But that never happened, so Behringer's narcissistic personality and questionable business practices are shining bright on social media for the world to see.

Behringer's PR department (if they haven't yet quit out of frustration) needs to be given total authority over all social media from here on out, as well as the authority to do whatever it takes to minimize the damage that was done. If Uli wants what's best for his company, he simply needs to get out of the way and let his PR team go to work.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Mar 8, 2020)

The type of crap people get worked up about - it's incredible. /shrug


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