# New private orchestral library - SAS Problems / SIPS2 Implementation



## Pedro Camacho (Jul 28, 2008)

Ok I am now doing the programming of my own private library and I am having serious problems with SAS.

Here goes a Screenshot:

http://www.musicbypedro.com/000_private_libs/PMC_Library.jpg (http://www.musicbypedro.com/000_private ... ibrary.jpg)

As you can see in the SS, the library uses CCs messages to turn on and off certain groups (Group Start Options) to increase the overall playability and sound quality.

SLS from SIPS2 would be a huge great addition to it but for it to work correctly with Release Triggers properly I have to set up SAS first.

The problem is that SAS completely takes over the Group Start Options and "destroys" the instrument completely.

I don't need TKT because the library already has round robin samples (another thing that seems to be destroyed by SAS) but I need to set up the RTs and the instrument range in SAS so that SLS can properly work with all its glory.

For instruments without RTs I just use SLS without SAS and the legatos are amazing (congratulations Bob!!).

If anyone could help me out I would really say thanks 

Cheers,
-Pedro


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## Pzy-Clone (Jul 28, 2008)

hm interesting.
Just a OT question, but if you have the means and ability to record your own custom library, even with some nice graphix, why not get some custom scripting as well?

thats what i would have done, at least, and hopefully will do, at the next possible junction.

good luck anyways.
perhaps consider Using Sips 1 instead then, wich does not have TKT ( i think) and works with mostly anything in my experience.
...but on second thought, you want to implement release triggers, right? so thats wont work.


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## Pedro Camacho (Jul 28, 2008)

I like to learn


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## Big Bob (Jul 28, 2008)

Hi Pedro,


> The problem is that SAS completely takes over the Group Start Options and "destroys" the instrument completely.



Perhaps another way of saying this would be to say that to use SIPS 2, you have to modify the current instrument to handle certain things in a different way? 

The design of the SAS is such that it must have *exclusive use *of the group-start parameters (see 2nd paragraph on page 29 of the User's Guide). In exchange for this you get an amazingly flexible articulation control scheme but at a price. If you want to use an instrument that is currently using the group-start machinery, you have to go through the effort of 'recasting it' to work via the SAS rather than to 'go around' it. Since the SAS is extremely flexible, I doubt very much that there is no way to 'recast' your instrument to work in harmony with it but, it no doubt will take some effort. Perhaps more effort than you are willing to expend.



> I don't need TKT because the library already has round robin samples (another thing that seems to be destroyed by SAS) but I need to set up the RTs and the instrument range in SAS so that SLS can properly work with all its glory.



Simple Round-Robin as well as full-cylcle random sequencing, both 'natural' (ie group variation) and TKT is another function fully handled by the SAS but with much more powerful options than those available without scripting. An instrument that is already using Kontakt's somewhat 'lame' round-robin system must also be 'recast' differently to work properly through the SAS.

SIPS 2 provides many of its new features via a synergism between the SAS and SLS. The whole idea of the SAS is to provide a more unified framework for handling articulation selection and control that can work in close harmony with the Legato and Portamento effects of the SLS. But, there is a front-end learning curve and it may also require a bit of rethinking as to how you have been doing things.

It may be that the new features of SIPS 2 are not sufficiently attractive (or necessary) to justify the 'front-end' investment you would have to make. Moreover, if you are happy with the way your instruments work now using SIPS 151 (or whatever vesion you might be using), then one option is of course to stay with your current version of SIPS.

If you should decide you like your current version of SIPS better, I will cheerfully refund your purchase price for SIPS 2 with no questions asked. :lol: 

God Bless,

Bob


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## Pedro Camacho (Jul 28, 2008)

Thank you SO much Robert. I really appreciate all your effort and dedication.


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## Jack Weaver (Jul 28, 2008)

Hey Pedro,

Loved the music on your site! 

Do you have any other pieces posted besided Silver Tears?

Best regards,
Jack


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## Pedro Camacho (Jul 29, 2008)

Hello Jack, thank you for the nice words!

I don't have any other music posted.

Even though I compose more for orchestra, if you visit robpapen.com you can hear the featured demos for BLUE and Predator from me.

I have an outdated demoreel from 2007 as well:
http://www.musicbypedro.com/private_temp03435234523/reels/Pedro_Camacho_Orchestral_Action_Epic_Reel_vol1.mp3 (http://www.musicbypedro.com/private_tem ... l_vol1.mp3)


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## joris1974 (Jul 29, 2008)

Hi,

I'm new here. I am doing something really similar, by making custom instruments from Gold XP to work with Sibelius. I already had most instruments set-up (and working great!) with consistent KS's, and a few controller-driven tricks (a marcato overlay on sustain to achieve sfz, sfp and of course marcato), staccatissimo by controlling decay of staccato samples, etc.

Then SIPS2 came out, and I didn't want to mess up my KS's, so I dumped SAS - no offense, Bob - and replaced it with an easy frontend that I wrote for my setup. I don't have the Portamento mode in yet, but most of the logic is implemented. If any one is interested, I also wrote a small divisi/unisi script that works whenever the SIPS scripts don't. Attached is an example of solo horn (just skip missing samples when loading) that "seems" to work with all the scripts chained. Maybe that will give you some ideas, Pedro. Good luck.

Any feedback from the custom scripts - and their terrible coding - would be incredibly welcome!


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## Big Bob (Jul 29, 2008)

> Then SIPS2 came out, and I didn't want to mess up my KS's, so I dumped SAS - no offense, Bob - and replaced it with an easy frontend that I wrote for my setup.



No offense taken, whatever works for you is OK by me. The only thing I will mention is that in SIPS 2, there are many co-dependencies between the SAS and SLS so I hope you 'covered' them all. In other words, travel at your own risk. :lol: 

God Bless,

Bob


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## joris1974 (Jul 30, 2008)

Big Bob @ Tue Jul 29 said:


> The only thing I will mention is that in SIPS 2, there are many co-dependencies between the SAS and SLS so I hope you 'covered' them all.


Uh, oh... From the way you phrase it, Bob, there has to be more than just broadcasting the instrument range, or selecting the legato modes from a CC. I found a few major bugs in my front-end script already, shocker :wink: . But strangely enough, things worked quite well after a few fixes. May I humbly ask what other co-dependencies you are referring to?

I suppose I could revert to using v1.51 as you suggested to Pedro, but can I send the instrument range messages via the same encoded event parameters to SLS from my front-end?

Either way, let me just thank you for those scripts, Bob. I got a few trombone solo pieces played straight from Sibelius, and they managed to convince the skeptical classical trombonist that I am. You get my vote!

Cheers,

Joris


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## Big Bob (Jul 31, 2008)

Hi Joris,

Would you believe me if I told you that I can't fully answer your question without re-studying the code? I'm an old geezer and my memory is getting kind of pathetic. :( One reason why I comment my code so heavily is so when I need to make a change to it anytime after a few weeks later, I'm hoping my comments will help me to remember why I did what I did :lol: .

I can tell you a few things (that you didn't mention) off the top of my head though. Besides Instrument Range, the SAS also broadcasts the User Preference options which can effect the behavior of all sorts of things. The SAS also 'event-tags' notes to provide info to the SLS (things like the TKT Offset to use and of course lots of stuff regarding articulation switching including the new DFD mode, release group triggering, etc).

How much of this stuff will actually affect you (if you give up all the SAS functions)I don't really know. Believe me, I'm not trying to be evasive, I simply can't tell you everything that might be affected. Like you, I would simply have to study the code and try to reconstruct everything I did. I can tell you this. When I started writing the code, I made some preliminary effort to allow the scripts to detect each other's presence and change to a standalone mode when necessary. But, as more and more cooperative functions were added, I had to abandon that idea. The result is that the trio of scripts are written in a co-dependent way (especially the SAS and SLS) and are not intended to run standalone. I'm sure some functions will run mostly OK but there will probably be all kinds of 'gotchas' surfacing. Sorry I can't be more helpful or encouraging.

If you need or at least want some of the new SIPS 2 features, I honestly think it would be easier to recast your instruments to work with the SAS rather than to create a 'son of SAS' script to avoid changing the instrument. Alternatively, you may have to settle for V151.

I notice you indicate that you are a trombonist so I'll just mention that my initial motive in designing the formant-corrected portamento function was to enable me to produce realistic trombone slides. Just for kicks, I've decided to try replacing my real trombone track in the March Of the Bobcats with a VI version that uses this new SIPS 2 feature. Oh what montrous fun :wink: .

God Bless,

Bob


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## joris1974 (Jul 31, 2008)

> Would you believe me if I told you that I can't fully answer your question without re-studying the code?


Thanks for trying, Bob. Looking at the intricacy of your code, I can see why your Opus Magnus cannot be summarized in a nutshell. I think I'll try to work with v151 for now ; I did give SAS a shot, but couldn't set up a staccato RR keyswitch :oops: You were right about the learning curve! But I'll try again when I have a bit more time and a well-rested brain. Do you plan on adding a little tutorial on typical usages (such as RR, or layered groups with Xfade volume control)?



> I notice you indicate that you are a trombonist so I'll just mention that my initial motive in designing the formant-corrected portamento function was to enable me to produce realistic trombone slides.


And a fellow multi-instrumentalist too, on a good day :wink: 

Thanks again for your hints,
Joris


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## Big Bob (Aug 1, 2008)

> Do you plan on adding a little tutorial on typical usages (such as RR, or layered groups with Xfade volume control)?



I have no current plans to do any tutorials (I'm still exhausted from all the work involved in writing User's Guide as it is :lol: ). However, maybe at some future point such a thing could happen. Although, I would much prefer to see someone else write such a set of tutorials 8) . The raw information about how to do such things is in the User's Guide, you just have to dig it out.

BTW round-robin keyswitches are quite easy to set up, you just assign each of the groups as part of a Chain. Once that's done, you can use all the variation settings to control when and how the chain is sequenced.

God Bless,

Bob


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