# Grim news from Paris



## Baron Greuner (Nov 13, 2015)

Another nightmare in Paris.


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## Tatu (Nov 13, 2015)

Sick, sick world.


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## synthpunk (Nov 13, 2015)

the world needs a reboot


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## Tatu (Nov 13, 2015)

aesthete said:


> the world needs a reboot


Not sure if enough. Uninstall.


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## sleepy hollow (Nov 13, 2015)

A nightmare? Yes, very much so. A sick world? A reboot or even 'uninstall'? Nope.

Don't let the crazies inject too much fear in your lives.
Easier said than done, I know.


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## germancomponist (Nov 13, 2015)

I hope those responsible are held accountable. And I suspect they were not terrorists!


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## erica-grace (Nov 13, 2015)

Vive la France!


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## erica-grace (Nov 13, 2015)

germancomponist said:


> And I suspect they were not terrorists!



No - of course not. Muslims killing innocent unarmed civilians while yelling "Allahu Akbar". Definitely not terrorists. Absolutely not.


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## chimuelo (Nov 13, 2015)

I had a job cancelled from Tornados.
Friday the 13th.
Maybe for the best.
Then I get home and see this.

Viva La France for sure.
My heart to my brothas and sistas in Paris.


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## Allegro (Nov 13, 2015)

Religion! What a dangerous invention. Politics isn't even close.


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## IFM (Nov 13, 2015)

Thoughts are with them tonight.


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## woodsdenis (Nov 13, 2015)

Sickening.


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## muziksculp (Nov 13, 2015)

Yes, very sad and sickening.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 13, 2015)

My deepest sympathies to the citizens of Paris who were terrorized by cowardly scum who target and murder civilians.
My heart goes out to you, and we stand with you.


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## chimuelo (Nov 13, 2015)

I'm surprised we haven't heard more about the fact these guys were Mic'd up. Heard a witness mentioning this on France24.


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## Red (Nov 13, 2015)

I'm afraid Mahler 9th is coming true.
Am I rash in thinking that action is needed?
Not violence, but maybe isolation of the muslim countries, stronger deportation standards?
People say vetting visas based on race or religion is wrong. But we do the same if it was a case of disease.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 13, 2015)

Red said:


> I'm afraid Mahler 9th is coming true.
> Am I rash in thinking that action is needed?
> Not violence, but maybe isolation of the muslim countries, stronger deportation standards?
> People say vetting visas based on race or religion is wrong. But we do the same if it was a case of disease.



Sounds great. Or perhaps we should preemptively lock up any young, french speaking, middle-eastern looking male person, because that's what the assassins are gonna turn out to be. Your problem just turned a little bit more complex. But I'm sure you'll figure it all out ...


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## Red (Nov 13, 2015)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Sounds great. Or perhaps we should preemptively lock up any young, french speaking, middle-eastern looking male person, because that's what the assassins are gonna turn out to be. Your problem just turned a little bit more complex. But I'm sure you'll figure it all out ...



Um... no. You just made it complex. I've said nothing of the sort. Not on locking anyone up or profiling them based on appearance.

What I said was basically, let's not go there ourselves and let's not let anymore of them come in.


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## Udo (Nov 13, 2015)

I think it's time to remind people that the overwhelming majority of Muslims are totally decent people and that ISIS, Daesh, or whatever you call them, are an extremely small group (and there are apparently indications that some members aren't even Muslims).

Also, similar atrocities were committed by other religions in the past, e.g. Catholics Christians burning Protestant Christians at the stake, and there are examples in other religions.

*A major difference these days is that they can and do "play"/manipulate the media on a very large scale.*


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 13, 2015)

Red said:


> Um... no. You just made it complex. I've said nothing of the sort. Not on locking anyone up or profiling them based on appearance.



Only because you're being inconsequent. Since your stance is essentially "us vs. them". You can close the borders, whatever - what I'm telling you that it won't help your muslim scare because the scum that has commited these recent crimes has probably been brought up in France. Just wait for the news, you'll see - they're probably very young, and probably raised in Europe. At least half of them.

It's not me who's "making it complex". It is complex. It's up to you wether you're willing or not to acknowledge it.

The question is: after you've "isolated muslim countries" (your words) from the rest of the world - what's your next step? Since a great deal of the terror thread stems from within ... how do you tackle that, in the previously demonstrated, decisive, consequent manner?


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## emid (Nov 13, 2015)

I have finally come to the point that I think blaming religion for more than a decade isn't helping us anymore. There is certainly more to it. 

Thoughts and prayers are with you, France.


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## Allegro (Nov 14, 2015)

No, this IS a bigger issue. The reason blaming isn't helping is because we are just here sitting and blaming for the past decade or so. Being a former Muslim, I can tell you that the actual teachings of Islam itself can be seen as immoral. A lot of statements are deceptive in the holy book and you can interpret them in any way.
Just as an example, I am not supposed to be alive right now because I left religion. According to Islam (the true islam), my punishment for leaving islam is death.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 14, 2015)

Allegro said:


> No, this IS a bigger issue. The reason blaming isn't helping is because we are just here sitting and blaming for the past decade or so. Being a former Muslim, I can tell you that the actual teachings of Islam itself can be seen as immoral. A lot of statements are deceptive in the holy book and you can interpret them in any way.
> Just as an example, I am not supposed to be alive right now because I left religion. According to Islam (the true islam), my punishment for leaving islam is death.



Oh well ... as a former christian, I can tell you that the actual teachings of Christianity are immoral ... this religious talk is just blah. The world's problems are infinitely more complex than the preference of bedtime stories.


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## Red (Nov 14, 2015)

I understand your point Jimmy. But what i'm saying is that Iran and Isis are already fighting each other.
We're butting in on a domestic turf war between the muslims. Isolate and let them figure it out. Last time we butted in, the whole country blew money it didn't have and in the end caused more terrorist attacks.
All religion's teachings are immoral cause the so called "progressive" ideas back then were still a hair above savagery.

It's not Us vs Them
It's
Us vs muslim 1
Us vs muslim 2
Muslim 1 vs Muslim 2
I'm just saying let's keep it only Muslim 1 vs Muslim 2 for now


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## TGV (Nov 14, 2015)

Well, if the Muslim community doesn't step up and expel these people from their midst, it will be done for them, sooner or later. That's another part of what you so euphemistically describe as "complexity".

> The world's problems are infinitely more complex than the preference of bedtime stories.

Ignoring their presence isn't helping either. The terrorists' side is very clearly interested in "us Muslims vs. them heathens".


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## FriFlo (Nov 14, 2015)

Udo said:


> I think it's time to remind people that the overwhelming majority of Muslims are totally decent people and that ISIS, Daesh, or whatever you call them, are an extremely small group (and there are apparently indications that some members aren't even Muslims).
> 
> Also, similar atrocities were committed by other religions in the past, e.g. Catholics Christians burning Protestant Christians at the stake, and there are examples in other religions.
> 
> *A major difference these days is that they can and do "play"/manipulate the media on a very large scale.*


While I believe it is true that the majority of Muslim believers are decent people, just as any people of any faith can be decent or indecent people, I also believe that today the Muslim faith is in deep need of reconnaissance that happened with the Christian faith in the past and lead e.g. to laicistic France. People like Maajid Nawaz lead this movement. I am atheistic, but I assume you will always have religious people in the next 100 years at least, so it is important that they don't worship in an uncritical way and don't take their scripture literally. Not that there are not as many crazy people in the Christian faith, but I just don't see as much danger from those currently ...
But the most fatal fact is the double standards with that western politics still deals with the most medieval countries as friends, as Saudi Arabia. We don't shy away from selling those countries our weapons and accepting their morals. Isolating any Muslim countries for sure isn't the way to go! That will only increase the problems. The powerful countries in the world just have to stop using their power only in their own political interests, commencing strategies in the interest of all countries. I doubt I will see that happen in my lifetime ...


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## NYC Composer (Nov 14, 2015)

Just out of curiosity JH-how do you, decisively, consequently or otherwise? How do you deal with escalating, bloodier terrorism (which is apparently on the table for the forseeable future)?


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## NYC Composer (Nov 14, 2015)

FriFlo said:


> While I believe it is true that the majority of Muslim believers are decent people, just as any people of any faith can be decent or indecent people, I also believe that today the Muslim faith is in deep need of reconnaissance that happened with the Christian faith in the past and lead e.g. to laicistic France. People like Maajid Nawaz lead this movement. I am atheistic, but I assume you will always have religious people in the next 100 years at least, so it is important that they don't worship in an uncritical way and don't take their scripture literally. Not that there are not as many crazy people in the Christian faith, but I just don't see as much danger from those currently ...
> But the most fatal fact is the double standards with that western politics still deals with the most medieval countries as friends, as Saudi Arabia. We don't shy away from selling those countries our weapons and accepting their morals. Isolating any Muslim countries for sure isn't the way to go! That will only increase the problems. The powerful countries in the world just have to stop using their power only in their own political interests, commencing strategies in the interest of all countries. I doubt I will see that happen in my lifetime ...


With the bombing of the Russian plane, the bombings in Beirut and this event as a backdrop, I think the opportunity for concerted, united efforts among formerly less aligned nations is here. I hope to hell it happens.


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## Scrianinoff (Nov 14, 2015)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Oh well ... as a former christian, I can tell you that ...


And as a fellow former christian, I can tell you that I no longer believe that god created the world, however, I am absolutely certain that the devil created religion.


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## dfhagai (Nov 14, 2015)

As a citizen of a country stricken by Islamic terror on a daily basis, I can only send my condolences to the people of France.
This disputed is NOT about land.
The problem is NOT religion in general.
Unfortunately, there's no end in sight in the near future.

Vive la France.


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 14, 2015)

TGV said:


> Well, if the Muslim community doesn't step up and expel these people from their midst, it will be done for them, sooner or later.



It's definitely coming. I'm surprised that the French President hasn't stepped down this morning. There are some so called leaders in Europe that are patently bat shit crazy. Jeremy Corbin is even beyond all of that. As I said before, if by some miracle he ever got elected in the UK, MI6 or the CIA would have _'to care of it'_.

Marine LePenn looks on.


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 14, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> With the bombing of the Russian plane, the bombings in Beirut and this event as a backdrop, I think the opportunity for concerted, united efforts among formerly less aligned nations is here. I hope to hell it happens.



Larry you ever been to Europe? never going to happen.


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## Vlzmusic (Nov 14, 2015)

Terrible night, and most deep condolences to everyone involved. It looks like a time for those who could not prevent it to step down.
I do believe there is much to be done about the current situation in Europe - deportation of all the infiltrated activists and hate preachers, closing down of all the newly built symbols of "faith", which are so transparently being anti-European, and of course, keeping a close eye for any organized activity, because for a terror act on this scale, you do have to organize and prepare, and it should not happen under the radar at this time and age.
Acting is inevitable, it will become a necessity, even if trying to run business as usual. Freedom and well being have to be protected - looks like someone fell asleep on duty...


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 14, 2015)

Orcel said:


> Music must be sheltered by political opinion because music is an universal language. As long as we will be blind in front of the misery, we will be subject to violence.Then now, I am going to turn on my computer and my keyboard because, composing music is a kind of self hypnosis, the only way for me to stand life and its inequalities.
> Cyril (From Paris) :-(



Yes good idea Cyril. Cependant Cyril, these IS people don't recognise music or art in anyway and would not even understand what you are talking about sadly.


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## gbar (Nov 14, 2015)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Oh well ... as a former christian, I can tell you that the actual teachings of Christianity are immoral ... this religious talk is just blah. The world's problems are infinitely more complex than the preference of bedtime stories.



People generalize and stereotype. It's what we do, unfortunately. The people who planned and committed this horrible attack did it too. How else to you legitimize killing totally innocent bystanders except by stereotyping them and generalizing to the point that somebody sitting down for a meal, to watch a soccer game, or attend a concert is to blame for whatever "sinister infidel plot against the Muslim people" or whatever their narrative was, and therefore they were legitimate targets.

On the converse side, we all do it. And we minimize the value of innocents too. Every bomb dropped that produces "collateral damage" is an example.

I think the best you can hope for in the best of people is an awareness of our tendency to generalize, to seek out overly simplistic narratives, and to minimize what "our side" does in the process of going after "their side".

I'm not saying you can conduct a humane war, and our military folks just aren't doing it. I'm saying there is no such thing as a humane war. It's a unicorn. So what do you do? Avoid choosing war, I suppose, and let that burden fall to somebody else. At least then, you can say "this is a nasty business, but we didn't choose this". That's something I think about with Iraq for obvious reasons, but I don't feel the same way about Afghanistan because while that was/is regrettable, it was somebody else's choice.

*"I’ve been where you are now and I know just how you feel. It’s entirely natural that there should beat in the breast of every one of you a hope and desire that some day you can use the skill you have acquired here.

Suppress it! You don’t know the horrible aspects of war. I’ve been through two wars and I know. I’ve seen cities and homes in ashes. I’ve seen thousands of men lying on the ground, their dead faces looking up at the skies. I tell you, war is Hell!" - William Tecumseh Sherman*


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## NYC Composer (Nov 14, 2015)

Sherman fought his war first, then mourned it. Indicative of some uncomfortable realities, that.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 14, 2015)

Baron Greuner said:


> It's definitely coming. I'm surprised that the French President hasn't stepped down this morning. There are some so called leaders in Europe that are patently bat shit crazy. Jeremy Corbin is even beyond all of that. As I said before, if by some miracle he ever got elected in the UK, MI6 or the CIA would have _'to care of it'_.
> 
> Marine LePenn looks on.


...and here I thought it was the oligarchs who ruled the world. Now I find out it's the spooks. Dang.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 14, 2015)

gbar said:


> People generalize and stereotype. It's what we do, unfortunately. The people who planned and committed this horrible attack did it too. How else to you legitimize killing totally innocent bystanders except by stereotyping them and generalizing to the point that somebody sitting down for a meal, to watch a soccer game, or attend a concert is to blame for whatever "sinister infidel plot against the Muslim people" or whatever their narrative was, and therefore they were legitimate targets.



It's not stereotyping or generalizing. It's the tactic of viewing others as "not human". The enemy is not human, they are another species. This is the particular insanity of xenophobia, genocide, etc.


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## chimuelo (Nov 14, 2015)

Now come the bits of information that start sounding rather pathetic.
Syrian Passport found near the body.

Yeah I always make sure to carry mine on Suicide missions.
Helping the Police is always considerate after mass shootings.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 14, 2015)

Baron Greuner said:


> Larry you ever been to Europe? never going to happen.


Baron, been to England once, and it must happen.

The times, as the man said, they are 'a changin'.


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## scarred bunny (Nov 14, 2015)

It's been a great century so far, hasn't it?


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## NYC Composer (Nov 14, 2015)

The fun started a little early where we live.


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## playz123 (Nov 14, 2015)

We should also pray for the people who are left to clean up after this horrific event....the medics and ambulance workers, the police, army and volunteers. Then there are the friends and families of the victims and the injured survivors. None of them will forget this for the rest of their lives. "Oh the humanity!"


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 14, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Just out of curiosity JH-how do you, decisively, consequently or otherwise? How do you deal with escalating, bloodier terrorism (which is apparently on the table for the forseeable future)?



I wouldn't dare to claim that I have the solution. But my point is that this isn't an "us vs. the muslim religion and culture" kind of thing, and that isolating "us" from "them" - whatever that would mean in this context - would do nothing to solve the problems at hand; more likely the opposite. Let's not fool ourselves: things like this recent chain of tragedies in France aren't a result of the incompatibility of one religion with the other, or an inevitable clash of diametrically opposed cultures.

This is terrorism, in all its despicable malice. It's not "them" against "us". The people who commit these crimes, and the people who incite them to do so, don't care about anything of human value. They don't care about their own. A vile gang like ISIS commits massacres on "their own" every day. They send their own to die certain deaths, without blinking an eye, just to cause catastrophic damage. That's the enemy, and I'm 100% sure, if there was no Islam or whatever other religion that can serve as a twisted narrative backdrop, they would find something else - anything will do.

My point is that the fight should be on terrorism, not a demonisation of a culture or religion that seems to be "only trouble". In any case, I assume that Europe has been trivialising the potency of terror cells inside the Union for far too long, and it also baffles me how very much the fact gets ignored that parts of the Balkans - a terrible mess that the collective "West" seems to be happy to be able to look away from after the wars in the 90ies - now serve as fertile breeding ground for jihadists in Europe's front yard.


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## Hannes_F (Nov 14, 2015)

Let us not confuse terrorists with their victims. Xenophobia is not the solution.

That being said I am waiting for an islamic (internal) reformation like some others here too, and if (and when) it comes it will hopefully release many honest believers from some quite uncanny paradoxons they have to suffer right now.


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## KEnK (Nov 14, 2015)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> This is terrorism, in all its despicable malice. It's not "them" against "us". The people who commit these crimes, and the people who incite them to do so, don't care about anything of human value. They don't care about their own. A vile gang like ISIS commits massacres on "their own" every day. They send their own to die certain deaths, without blinking an eye, just to cause catastrophic damage. That's the enemy, and I'm 100% sure, if there was no Islam or whatever other religion that can serve as a twisted narrative backdrop, they would find something else - anything will do.


Let us not forget the Saudi's role in Jihad. (the spread of militant Wahhabism)
Isolate Saudi Arabia politically and economically and the Jihad will lose much of it's momentum.
Most effective weapon to combat global Jihad is boycotting Saudi oil.
The "House of Saud" won't let a little thing like religious fundamentalism get in the way of the flow of oil.
Sound's too simple, I know, but look at the history of the movement.

k

p.s. Hannes! We both used the phrase "Let us not" simultaneously! 
Didn't see your post til I sent mine.
Conspiracy or coincidence?
My post does seem to answer yours- although in a round'a'bout way.


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## Soundhound (Nov 14, 2015)

This. The West needs to get the f*ck out of the middle east, and stay the f*ck out. Specifically, cut ties with the Saudis. The problem is, we opened the hornets next, stirred it up mercilessly, and then complain that we keep getting stung, while a sea of humanity pours out of the area trying to escape.

Leave the middle east, now. Take in all the refugees, give them support and citizenship. Hunker down and wait for the muslim reformation. If it goes by the same schedule as the christian one, it should be along in about 200 years. It won't solve everything by a long shot (see: northern ireland, etc.) but it'll help. In the meantime, generations of radical muslim fundamentalists won't be raised seeing us as the devil.



<<
Let us not forget the Saudi's role in Jihad. (the spread of militant Wahhabism)
Isolate Saudi Arabia politically and economically and the Jihad will lose much of it's momentum.
Most effective weapon to combat global Jihab is boycotting Saudi oil.
The "House of Saud" won't let a little thing like religious fundamentalism get in the way of the flow of oil.
Sound's too simple, I know, but look at the history of the movement.

k


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## InLight-Tone (Nov 14, 2015)

Sorry for this brutal reply but the belief in "god" and "heaven" is one of the most dangerous concepts ever invented by humankind. If you believe in an "afterlife" why appreciate the rarity of the Life you have here and now. Christians are equally dangerous with their concepts of "heaven & hell", this is the making of a suicide bomber who doesn't care about themselves and thus any human Life around them. Heaven and Paradise will take place on this Earth and anyone trying to influence you otherwise has already checked out of Life, don't listen...


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## MR F (Nov 14, 2015)

InLight-Tone said:


> Sorry for this brutal reply but the belief in "god" and "heaven" is one of the most dangerous concepts ever invented by humankind. If you believe in an "afterlife" why appreciate the rarity of the Life you have here and now. Christians are equally dangerous with their concepts of "heaven & hell", this is the making of a suicide bomber who doesn't care about themselves and thus any human Life around them. Heaven and Paradise will take place on this Earth and anyone trying to influence you otherwise has already checked out of Life, don't listen...


Cool story. Communists tried to create a heaven on earth -> look how well that turned out...


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 14, 2015)

InLight-Tone said:


> Sorry for this brutal reply but the belief in "god" and "heaven" is one of the most dangerous concepts ever invented by humankind. If you believe in an "afterlife" why appreciate the rarity of the Life you have here and now. Christians are equally dangerous with their concepts of "heaven & hell", this is the making of a suicide bomber who doesn't care about themselves and thus any human Life around them. Heaven and Paradise will take place on this Earth and anyone trying to influence you otherwise has already checked out of Life, don't listen...


You speak as if you know what other people are thinking. You have no clue. If religious people who believe in the afterlife don't care about life here on earth, please explain why the vast majority of charities that help people today were founded by Christians. Explain that.

I believe in Haven and Hell and I hold life here on earth very preciously. I am deeply troubled by death of any innocent creature, be it man or animal. I appreciate and am grateful for every day I and my family and friends are alive here. I'm not saying you're less concerned about life than I am because unlike you I can't read other people's minds.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 14, 2015)

MR F said:


> Cool story. Communists tried to create a heaven on earth -> look how well that turned out...


Communists don't try to create Heaven on Earth. They aren't concerned one iota with people's happiness or well-being. Communism is all about power resting in the government.

Edit: I'm sorry; I just realized the point of your post.


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## MR F (Nov 14, 2015)

Michael K. Bain said:


> Communists don't try to create Heaven on Earth. They aren't concerned one iota with people's happiness or well-being. Communism is all about power resting in the government.


True. However, this is what they taught my parents in school and believe it or not - some people really believed it (some of them in power).


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 14, 2015)

MR F said:


> True. However, this is what they taught my parents in school and believe it or not - some people really believed it (some of them in power).


Yeah, I realized too late that you didn't actually believe it, and that was the point of your post. Sorry about that.


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## Astronaut FX (Nov 14, 2015)

I have a dear friend who left the US to follow his wife's career. He lives in Bordeaux, France which is about 5 hours away from Paris, but it would be nothing for him to travel that far to see a show, and I know he's a fan of Eagles of Death Metal. Have yet to hear from him. 


As an atheist, I don't believe God created the world, but I'm convinced that he will destroy it.


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## Soundhound (Nov 14, 2015)

Imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try. No hell below us, above us only sky. - The problem with religion is it opens powerful hooks in our psyches that are easy for political movements to grab hold of and make us do anything they want to (Ronald Regan/evangelical christians, Al quaeda, isis et al/muslim fundamentalism. Organized religion helps many get through the night, it also helps turn us against each other. I sincerely believe it's a vestigial survival tool that we're a few hundred years from finally outgrowing. If we last that long.


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## KEnK (Nov 14, 2015)

InLight-Tone said:


> Sorry for this brutal reply but the belief in "god" and "heaven" is one of the most dangerous concepts ever invented by humankind.


I'm not sure who you're replying to, but I will say this.
I agree w/ you in "essence", but while Christianity is guilty of much horror, even genocide,
this is _for the most part_, history.

My Mother in-law is a very traditional Catholic woman, very involved in her faith as a big part of her life.
She thinks that Evangelical Christians "go to far".
I have in discussions w/ her referred to them as the _American Taliban_.
This is because of the imposition of their moral code on "others", but not because of violence.

Except for the recent surge of Hindu Fundamentalist violence,
there is only one major "religion" propagating a "Cult of Death".
And it is to the people who believe that Islam is a "Religion of Peace",
to reclaim their belief from those who have usurped it.

Global Jihad is not a Christian, or Hindu or Buddhist invention.
Global Jihad is a very specific Wahhabi invention.

k


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 14, 2015)

All you boys who go on about being atheists like it's some sort of badge of honour.

WHO THE BLOODY HELL CARES WHAT YOU ARE!!!!!!!!!!!

The point is, as a Roman Catholic myself I don't give a rats ass what you believe. The difference is I don't want to kill you for your beliefs.

Jesus H Christ!


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## KEnK (Nov 14, 2015)

Baron Greuner said:


> as a Roman Catholic myself I don't give a rats ass what you believe. The difference is I don't want to kill you for your beliefs.


But a little more than a hundred years ago that is exactly what was going on-
(and there's that thing in Ireland a few decades ago)

And now though, there are many in the world who would kill Catholic, Atheist and Buddhist alike.
So it's understandable that many people have a less than favorable view of organized religion-

just sayin'

k


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## Astronaut FX (Nov 14, 2015)

Baron Greuner said:


> All you boys who go on about being atheists like it's some sort of badge of honour.
> 
> WHO THE BLOODY HELL CARES WHAT YOU ARE!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...




Wow. We must be reading posts very differently. No badge of honor on my part at all. As a matter of fact, if adherence to one religion or another helps to keep people civil with one another, I'm all for it. 

But I do find it ironic just how much death and destruction that has been wrought throughout history in the name of religion.


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## KEnK (Nov 14, 2015)

Tone Deaf said:


> I do find it ironic just how much death and destruction that has been wrought throughout history in the name of religion.


"Commerce" is also guilty, hard to say which one is worse.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 14, 2015)

KEnK said:


> My Mother in-law is a very traditional Catholic woman, very involved in her faith as a big part of her life.
> She thinks that Evangelical Christians "go to far".
> I have in discussions w/ her referred to them as the _American Taliban_.
> This is because of the imposition of their moral code on "others", but not because of violence.



American Taliban? That is absolutely ridiculous, even if you're only referring to "imposition of their moral code". When was the last time you saw an evangelical Christian forcing women to wear burkhas, or not allowing women to teach or drive? Come on.

I'm an Evangelical Christian. I don't impose my "moral code" on anyone. I am honest enough to say I sin, and so I don't judge others for their sin. I just tell `em about the Gospel. 1 Cor. 5:12 tells Christians not to judge Non-Christians. We are to leave that to God. But we are supposed to tell them about Jesus.


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## KEnK (Nov 14, 2015)

Michael K. Bain said:


> I'm an Evangelical Christian. I don't impose my "moral code" on anyone.


Maybe not you Micheal, but many do.
For example, I'm pro choice, so is my very Catholic Mother-in-law.
You needn't express your viewpoint about that, but that is one example of such imposition.
Only until recently Gay Rights would've been another-
And while the Supreme Court has ruled in favor of Human Equality,
there are many on the Christian Right who will and do object to the "rule of law".


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## Soundhound (Nov 14, 2015)

How is shooting abortion doctors different from beheading journalists? Answer: it's not. It's precisely and exactly the same thing. Fundamentalism in many forms is anti-pogress, it is fearful, ignorant primitivism, and it's almost always bad. (see: Scalia and the strict constructionists, Isis, Khmer Rouge, Nazis, skinheads, the 'America love it or leave it' right wing, it's all variations on the same orthodox approach). I've been calling the modern U.S. right wing the American Taliban for years. It's hyperbolic, but not by much.



Michael K. Bain said:


> American Taliban? That is absolutely ridiculous, even if you're only referring to "imposition of their moral code". When was the last time you saw an evangelical Christian forcing women to wear burkhas, or not allowing women to teach or drive? Come on.
> 
> I'm an Evangelical Christian. I don't impose my "moral code" on anyone. I am honest enough to say I sin, and so I don't judge others for their sin. I just tell `em about the Gospel. 1 Cor. 5:12 tells Christians not to judge Non-Christians. We are to leave that to God. But we are supposed to tell them about Jesus.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 14, 2015)

KEnK said:


> Maybe not you Micheal, but many do.
> For example, I'm pro choice, so is my very Catholic Mother-in-law.You needn't express your viewpoint about that, but that is one example of such imposition.


The fight against abortion is an example of "moral imposition" only to the extent that laws against murder are. It's about protection of human life. Ask an embryologist - any embryologist in the world- when human life begins. It begins at conception.


KEnK said:


> Only until recently Gay Rights would've been another-
> And while the Supreme Court has ruled in favor of Human Equality,
> there are many on the Christian Right who will and do object to the "rule of law".



The only "gay right" that I know of the Christians are opposed to is that of gay marriage. I don't know of any Christian who wants to force people to stop being gay, as if anyone could be forced to stop being gay.

But under the Taliban, women are forced to wear burkhas, women are not allowed on the streets without a spouse or blood relative, women can't speak loudly in public, women banned form riding motorcycles or bicycles, etc. etc.

Do you really equate evangelical Christians to the Taliban?

The fact is that most people have some area in their moral code that they wish everyone would live by. And the gay rights movement is no exception. I saw a documentary about asexuality. In it, an asexual organization was handing out asexuality info. They weren't bashing homosexuality, just handing out info about asexuality. Many many gays were deriding them, ridiculing them, tretaing them like weirdos, telling them they just need to try sex, etc.


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## Vlzmusic (Nov 14, 2015)

Come on, friends, you fight over words, theories and believes. But that`s not what future potential victims need right now - they need justice and protection. There are tons of criminal minded people who want to disrupt the peace in Europe. No argue about that. If many of them happen to be foreigners, recent immigrants, religious fanatics - its pure statistic, its the police who has to use that data to prevent crime - that`s the job.
Currently, this job is not performed well - tons of hate preachers, violent elements, and anti-democratic activists hang around without being punished for civil disobedience, which is for fresh citizens, who are practically on probation to ensure they are law abiding folks, has to mean - immediate deportation. Or their next victim`s blood is on your hands, those who had to prevent and protect.


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## givemenoughrope (Nov 14, 2015)

Spare us the "ALL religions are violent...remember the Inquisition" nonsense. 

This event was obviously intended to provoke a backlash. If greater Islam in the West isn't perceived as taking care of its own house then that backlash may well be coming, not for better but for worse...and more of the same.


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## Soundhound (Nov 14, 2015)

Who said all religions are violent? I said religion can and is often used for political gain. It helps people get through the night, but it also paves the way for righteous murder. The crusades were about plunder, but what drove the soldiers so powerfully and endlessly was the belief that they were spreading the kingdom of christ. Similarly Isis is about political gain, but what is used to drive is the belief in the caliphate. 

I repeat what I said a few posts above. We did this. We put the hated Shah in power in Iran. Our continual support of the repressive Saudi regime fuels the fire. I remember so clearly that arrogant ignoramus William Kristol saying as the invasion or Iraq began that the Sunnis and Shiites had no history of enmity. We invaded Iraq for absolutely no reason and left a dangerous vacuum that Isis has inevitably filled. Exactly as those against the war here and in Europe predicted would happen. Until we get out of the middle east, the problem is not going to go away.


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## germancomponist (Nov 14, 2015)

!


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## germancomponist (Nov 14, 2015)

!


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## germancomponist (Nov 14, 2015)

!


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## givemenoughrope (Nov 14, 2015)

Soundhound said:


> We did this. We put the hated Shah in power in Iran.



The royal we or something maybe. You and I and everyone we know did nothing of the sort just like the "Not in my name"'s above. A music venue gets blown to bits. Go tell them they brought it upon themselves. Of course this stuff happens for a reason but no one wants to hear this noise. Let it go.


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## FredrikJonasson (Nov 14, 2015)

I experienced a new dimension to a Mass for the Dead tonight when I attended Brahms Requiem. 

You can be sure that quite a few things in our society is fundamentally wrong when people like you and me can be so self hypnotized and indoctrinated to even conceive such ideas.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 14, 2015)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I wouldn't dare to claim that I have the solution. But my point is that this isn't an "us vs. the muslim religion and culture" kind of thing, and that isolating "us" from "them" - whatever that would mean in this context - would do nothing to solve the problems at hand; more likely the opposite. Let's not fool ourselves: things like this recent chain of tragedies in France aren't a result of the incompatibility of one religion with the other, or an inevitable clash of diametrically opposed cultures.
> 
> This is terrorism, in all its despicable malice. It's not "them" against "us". The people who commit these crimes, and the people who incite them to do so, don't care about anything of human value. They don't care about their own. A vile gang like ISIS commits massacres on "their own" every day. They send their own to die certain deaths, without blinking an eye, just to cause catastrophic damage. That's the enemy, and I'm 100% sure, if there was no Islam or whatever other religion that can serve as a twisted narrative backdrop, they would find something else - anything will do.
> 
> My point is that the fight should be on terrorism, not a demonisation of a culture or religion that seems to be "only trouble". In any case, I assume that Europe has been trivialising the potency of terror cells inside the Union for far too long, and it also baffles me how very much the fact gets ignored that parts of the Balkans - a terrible mess that the collective "West" seems to be happy to be able to look away from after the wars in the 90ies - now serve as fertile breeding ground for jihadists in Europe's front yard.


This is excellent liberal-speak, and I am a long time time liberal. However, you can call a fish a potato, and it will still be a fish. In the context of this discussion, we are talking about one among many horrific incidents of, not generalized terrorism, but extremist Muslim terrorism. It's not as if Christian, Jewish, Hindu and Buddhist terrorists are taking turns picking Western civilian targets and creating bloody massacres, and this idea of historical perspective gets a little tiresome after a while. Historical wrongs date back to the beginning of human civilization. We have to deal in the now and how we operate going forward.

Simplistic people will paint this purely about East vs West. Obviously, it's nonsense to believe that all Muslims are jihadists or sympathetic to mass murder. Most Muslims want to live in peace and raise their families in safety. However, the sad and disturbing fact is that all of these incidents are being done, at least nominally, by radical factions in the name of Allah. So in my mind, this isn't just a fight against "terrorism", this present struggle is a fight against "radical Islamic terrorism." A fish, not a potato carved in the shape of a fish.

I think that besides grieving with the French, the most productive use of discussion would be to adress the question of how the non- radical world co-operates, nation with nation, to defend against and protect populations from radical Islamic terrorism.


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## KEnK (Nov 14, 2015)

givemenoughrope said:


> The royal we or something maybe. You and I and everyone we know did nothing of the sort just like the "Not in my name"'s above. A music venue gets blown to bits. Go tell them they brought it upon themselves. Of course this stuff happens for a reason but no one wants to hear this noise. Let it go.


I was thinking something similar- I read that the "terrorists" said before they started shooting,
"This is for what you're doing in Syria."
And my thought was "I'll bet not a single person in there had ever been to Syria".

Is it racism that makes people think like that?
I really have no idea.

k


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## mc_deli (Nov 14, 2015)

So, so sad.


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## KEnK (Nov 14, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> the most productive use of discussion would be to adress the question of how the non- radical world co-operates, nation with nation, to defend against and protect populations from radical Islamic terrorism.


Larry-
I really think that boycotting Saudi oil would go very far.
This stuff belongs at their doorstep- Even the Sunni/Shia conflict.
Of course it won't happen-
but I think people interested in root causes should consider that

k


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## chimuelo (Nov 14, 2015)

I can see what's going to happen.
Europeans will clean house but the real victors here will be Russia and Iran
I can see Russians marching through city after city with Republican Guards bringing up the rear. Saving the Christians and Sunnis.

He sees the EU and USA as divided and weak.
He unites his people.
Our leaders divide us against each other just so they can keep their job.
According to Hillary and Obama Al Qaeda was defeated. Then ISIS was contained.etc.

Sure. We and our allies will take in refugees and send a bomb here and there but this is Putin's chance.

From what I see of the man, I'd say he knows what he can get away with.
Once Iran closes the Hormuz his Oil will sky rocket. He does not plan on giving back territory.
Crimea was a recent example.

All the rivers of honey promised will disappear like a fart in the wind.
But the west will have won the war on climate change. Even if we pay 10 bucks for a head of 49cent lettuce.


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## Soundhound (Nov 14, 2015)

You miss the point, and rather magnificently. The point, of course, is not that you or I or anyone in the music venue overthrew the Shah, or invaded Iraq for absolutely no reason, or buddies up to the Saudis for personal enrichment, the point is that the U.S. (and Europe's) involvement in the middle east has given a primitive group like Isis the fuel it needs to paint the West as its target. 

We, (the West, not me or my wife or your grandmother) helped create Isis, and are now reaping the rewards. Every time we mess with this, it gets worse. if we go in and bomb the shit out of them, god help us. Here's an interesting piece I just read:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/




givemenoughrope said:


> The royal we or something maybe. You and I and everyone we know did nothing of the sort just like the "Not in my name"'s above. A music venue gets blown to bits. Go tell them they brought it upon themselves. Of course this stuff happens for a reason but no one wants to hear this noise. Let it go.


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## Soundhound (Nov 14, 2015)

At the risk of pouring gasoline on the fire, I have a solution:

1) Pave Arizona (because, f*ck Arizona) and cover the whole thing with solar cells. No more need for oil.
2) Get the hell out of the middle east, and stay the hell out. 
3) If Israel can't go it alone there, move Israel to Florida. (most of my relatives, being jewish, are there anyway, they'd love the company.)
4) Done. As John Hogdeman says, you're welcome.







KEnK said:


> Larry-
> I really think that boycotting Saudi oil would go very far.
> This stuff belongs at their doorstep- Even the Sunni/Shia conflict.
> Of course it won't happen-
> ...


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## givemenoughrope (Nov 14, 2015)

Soundhound said:


> You miss the point, and rather magnificently. The point, of course, is not that you or I or anyone in the music venue overthrew the Shah, or invaded Iraq for absolutely no reason, or buddies up to the Saudis for personal enrichment, the point is that the U.S. (and Europe's) involvement in the middle east has given a primitive group like Isis the fuel it needs to paint the West as its target.
> 
> We, (the West, not me or my wife or your grandmother) helped create Isis, and are now reaping the rewards. Every time we mess with this, it gets worse. if we go in and bomb the shit out of them, god help us. Here's an interesting piece I just read:
> 
> http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/



Yea, I didn't miss "your" point. We also marched in every city in the US against the Iraq war and also fell into near complete despair when W. was re-elected. Just give it a rest. No one wants to hear about how "we" are so shitty and how "we" caused and perpetuated all of this. "We" know. Shut up already.


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## Soundhound (Nov 14, 2015)

Oh for the love of Pete, I've gotten into another discussion with a Fox News audience member. Yikes! I need better Fox News radar. Maybe there's something on Amazon...

<<<
Yea, I didn't miss "your" point. We also marched in every city in the US against the Iraq war and also fell into near complete despair when W. was re-elected. Just give it a rest. No one wants to hear about how "we" are so shitty and how "we" caused and perpetuated all of this. "We" know. Shut up already.


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## givemenoughrope (Nov 14, 2015)

Soundhound said:


> Oh for the love of Pete, I've gotten into another discussion with a Fox News audience member. Yikes! I need better Fox News radar. Maybe there's something on Amazon...



Are you an American? Or are you having a stroke? Pretty sure that the fox news crowd wasn't against the war until realized it was a financial disaster. They helped vote W in. No one I know wanted the US back in Iraq bc of the reasons you listed. But go ahead...stand outside that venue in Paris and tell everyone that we got what we deserved. You'll make a lot of friends.


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## chimuelo (Nov 14, 2015)

People who watch Fox News are old and usually accuse others of the same laziness.

I saw a Pianist that drug his Piano down to the Theater and played John Lennons song "Imagine."
How awesome is that.
But sadly it was edited and later translated.
He changed the lyrics to " Imagine there's no Muslims".....
This just adds fuel to the fire...terrible.


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## dgburns (Nov 14, 2015)

just wanted to say that my heart and thoughts go to the ppl of Paris and France.I walked the streets of Paris not too long ago and was charmed by a city with alot of night and street life.Everyone goes out to eat on corner cafes.Can't imagine such a tragic thing happening like watching the person across from you getting a bullet in the head eating at the local cafe.I can't imagine my reaction or what I would do if I saw someone come at me with an ak47.

Don't have a solution to the conflict.


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## Soundhound (Nov 14, 2015)

chimuelo said:


> People who watch Fox News are old and usually accuse others of the same laziness.
> 
> I saw a Pianist that drug his Piano down to the Theater and played John Lennons song "Imagine."
> How awesome is that.
> ...


I saw the clip and thought how great is that. didn't hear about the changed lyrics, if true that's really a shame, and exactly the kind of thing that's so worrying. the right wing has to be overjoyed about all this...


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## Soundhound (Nov 14, 2015)

I must be misunderstanding you completely. Fox News (with the network pop news right behind them), created the atmosphere of terror and misinformation that let the bush administration invade Iraq. no one I know wanted the US to invade Iraq, ever.

just to be clear, do you watch Fox News??


givemenoughrope said:


> Are you an American? Or are you having a stroke? Pretty sure that the fox news crowd wasn't against the war until realized it was a financial disaster. They helped vote W in. No one I know wanted the US back in Iraq bc of the reasons you listed. But go ahead...stand outside that venue in Paris and tell everyone that we got what we deserved. You'll make a lot of friends.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 14, 2015)

I totally agree that the killing of a doctor who performs an abortion is a heinous act of murder and terrorism by someone crazed, by religion or chemistry. I also think it's taking things far afield and is not particularly germane. When a highly armed group of Christians goes to a Planned Parenthood rally and murders 100 people, that'll form an equivalence.


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## givemenoughrope (Nov 14, 2015)

Soundhound said:


> just to be clear, do you watch Fox News??



I'd sooner stare at the wall. I have no idea what makes you think I would. I'm fully aware of their (and CNN, etc.) cheerleading.


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## Soundhound (Nov 14, 2015)

I appreciate what you're saying, but I think the difference is one of politics, not reason or incentive. The two kinds of murders are caused by equivalent belief systems. The difference is Christianity has (hopefully) progressed past the time when this was done en masse. Islam hasn't gotten there yet. It's kind of like we're in a time machine and watching the salem witch trials in real time. The point is, there's nothing the west can do to bring about an Islamic reformation. We can't help very much. But we can stop making it worse. Stop aligning with the Saudis (the Bushes will hate that, but that should be a perfect negative indicator), get out of the middle east. Support moderate Islamic groups here and abroad. Be the good guys. 



NYC Composer said:


> I totally agree that the killing of a doctor who performs an abortion is a heinous act of murder and terrorism by someone crazed, by religion or chemistry. I also think it's taking things far afield and is not particularly germane. When a highly armed group of Christians goes to a Planned Parenthood rally and murders 100 people, that'll form an equivalence.


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## Soundhound (Nov 14, 2015)

I'm glad to hear it. Everything you say sounds so jingoistic, so that's where I went with it. My apologies. What I don't get is why you seem to have so little interest in what might be the cause of this. Seems to me the better we understand why this is happening, the smarter and more effective we can be about doing the right thing. 




givemenoughrope said:


> I'd sooner stare at the wall. I have no idea what makes you think I would. I'm fully aware of their (and CNN, etc.) cheerleading.


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## Allegro (Nov 14, 2015)

When someone mentions "religious extremists or muslim extremists or a christian extremist" to prove their point, I feel like hitting my head on the wall (yeah its pretty fractured, the wall!)

The thing is that these extremist guys are the ones following religion more closely and literally. How is religion not a problem but they are?

As I mentioned before, in my opinion, religion is a dangerous invention and clever immoral politicians, countries and Kings have been using it either as a tool or as a weapon.

We shouldn't expect religion to be taken as an expression.
You can't say "oh, we're giving away bombs but not in the literal sense for killing but as an expression of strength and bravery"

Atleast with Islam, I can say with confidence that muslims take Quran very seriously and literally. There can't be ANY changes made because apparently, Allah said so himself in the Quran. 
Having the honour of having it learnt by heart (yes the whole Quran, Incase someone thought they had a wasted childhood, I am the guy to beat), I know that while it doesn't exactly say "Kill Kill Kill" but more like
"F**** You because I am Allah, shut up and do as i say without questions, love muslims, Kill nonmuslims if they trouble you with religion and take their money, 2 girls = 1 guy"

We should be fixing issues from the source. We cant isolate and let muslims settle it out. This is our planet and we still have space left to live here. Savagery, Color Race and religion made us divide it.
Atleast by educating in an unbiased way, we can make a person realise when he is wrong even if he chooses to be.


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## givemenoughrope (Nov 14, 2015)

Soundhound said:


> I'm glad to hear it. Everything you say sounds so jingoistic, so that's where I went with it. My apologies. What I don't get is why you seem to have so little interest in what might be the cause of this. Seems to me the better we understand why this is happening, the smarter and more effective we can be about doing the right thing.



Does it sound that way? Really? Of course I know the damage the US under the last several presidents/cabinets has done in the region. It's no secret. Are our citizens responsible for it? No. Even if some are confused enough to support it (and aren't quite sure what they're supporting).


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## NYC Composer (Nov 14, 2015)

Soundhound said:


> I appreciate what you're saying, but I think the difference is one of politics, not reason or incentive. The two kinds of murders are caused by equivalent belief systems. The difference is Christianity has (hopefully) progressed past the time when this was done en masse. Islam hasn't gotten there yet.


And my point is that it's a HUGE difference.


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## chimuelo (Nov 14, 2015)

Allegro said:


> We should be fixing issues from the source. We cant isolate and let muslims settle it out. This is our planet and we still have space left to live here. Savagery, Color Race and religion made us divide it.
> Atleast by educating in an unbiased way, we can make a person realise when he is wrong even if he chooses to be.



Exactly this.
Which is why westernized nations will suffer the hardest first, as we embrace multiculturalism, even though our lawyers use it for political gain.

Russia Asia and the Middle East will face this in the future.
Afterall, I dont see many Blacks in Russia.
Even though slaves kicked out of the south into Nova Scotia were the creators of modern Hockey.

2 of my favorite DSP developers are 2nd Generation Tunisian and Qatari.
Live in Paris and say they are happy there even though its a struggle.
Pressure is what turns Coal into Diamonds.

Viva La France..


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## Lode_Runner (Nov 14, 2015)

May I ask the people in this thread raising Northern Ireland as an example of Christian extremism, what the theological dispute was between the IRA and UDA/UVF? Were they fighting over the authority of the Pope, scripture alone, the importance of praying to Mary and Saints, Purgatory, indulgences, faith alone etc with one group trying to forcibly convert the others to create a Catholic or Protestant only Ireland? Or was it not a religious dispute, but rather indigenous nationalist Irish (who are distinguishable by their Catholic faith) rejecting the colonial presence of pro-United Kingdom Ulster Scots (who are distinguishable by their Protestant faith)? I know my question sounds rhetorical, but I am seriously asking because I really can't see the religious dimension to the Northern Ireland conflict beyond the fact that the opposing sides come from different Christian denominations. It's the same when people raise the persecution of Muslim Rohingya's in Burma by Buddhist Rakhine - just because the Rakhine are Buddhist doesn't mean they are persecuting non-Buddhists because they believe Buddha told them to do it.

And regarding religion being the source of all the World's problems? How is religion responsible for the Holocaust (Shoah)? what's religion got to do with the Stalinist purges? is religion behind the actions of Pol Pot or Pinochet? Was religion a major motivating factor in the First or Second World Wars? Is religion the inspiration for Mexico's drug wars, or for the genocide against Tutsi's in Rwanda, or for the Congolese civil wars or the civil war in South Sudan? Was religion the motivator for Dylann Roof or Anders Breivik or the recent sword attack in Sweden? It seems to me that secular ideologies have racked up a higher body count over the past century than religion ever could.


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## Guy Bacos (Nov 14, 2015)

Lode_Runner said:


> May I ask the people in this thread raising Northern Ireland as an example of Christian extremism, what the theological dispute was between the IRA and UDA/UVF? Were they fighting over the authority of the Pope, scripture alone, the importance of praying to Mary and Saints, Purgatory, indulgences, faith alone etc with one group trying to forcibly convert the others to create a Catholic or Protestant only Ireland? Or was it not a religious dispute, but rather indigenous nationalist Irish (who are distinguishable by their Catholic faith) rejecting the colonial presence of pro-United Kingdom Ulster Scots (who are distinguishable by their Protestant faith)? I know my question sounds rhetorical, but I am seriously asking because I really can't see the religious dimension to the Northern Ireland conflict beyond the fact that the opposing sides come from different Christian denominations. It's the same when people raise the persecution of Muslim Rohingya's in Burma by Buddhist Rakhine - just because the Rakhine are Buddhist doesn't mean they are persecuting non-Buddhists because they believe Buddha told them to do it.
> 
> And regarding religion being the source of all the World's problems? How is religion responsible for the Holocaust, what's religion got to do with the Stalinist purges, is religion behind the actions of Pol Pot or Pinochet? Was religion a major motivating factor in the First or Second World Wars? Is religion the inspiration for Mexico's drug wars, or for the genocide against Tutsi's in Rwanda, or for the Congolese civil wars or the civil war in South Sudan? Was religion the motivator for Dylann Roof or Anders Breivik or the recent sword attack in Sweden? It seems to me that secular ideologies have racked up a higher body count over the past century than religion ever could.




Totally agree. I don't buy that religion is the cause of most wars. It's become an easy cliché. I have no attachment to any religion, but I think it's getting old saying it's in the name of religion. There is hate in this world, people with hate will of course prefer to kill in the name of their religion, it's a nice way of sleeping well, or I could be tempted to join this or that religion because some of the things they preached (or interpreted or badly interpreted or interpreted how I want it to be) fits the kind of person I am, and helps me get out my machoism side.. I personally think that if religion had never existed, the world would of had just as many wars.


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## Allegro (Nov 14, 2015)

Lode_Runner said:


> And regarding religion being the source of all the World's problems? How is religion responsible for the Holocaust, what's religion got to do with the Stalinist purges, is religion behind the actions of Pol Pot or Pinochet? Was religion a major motivating factor in the First or Second World Wars? Is religion the inspiration for Mexico's drug wars, or for the genocide against Tutsi's in Rwanda, or for the Congolese civil wars or the civil war in South Sudan? Was religion the motivator for Dylann Roof or Anders Breivik or the recent sword attack in Sweden? It seems to me that secular ideologies have racked up a higher body count over the past century than religion ever could.



Totally agree that religion isn't the cause of all problems however let's observe it this way:
Out of everything you mentioned above, can you associate and blame it on a single common source?
Now: [Insert 10^9999 problems and deaths caused by religion here]
^ All of this can be attributed to one common source. Religion! 
What would be the most efficient way to solve real world problems?
I realize that it isn't so black and white and that there are other factors in play but I hope you get my point.


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## Lode_Runner (Nov 14, 2015)

Sorry Allegro, I don't really get your point. You seem to be dismissing the relevance of many conflicts, repressions, genocides etc many with body counts in the millions, simply because they don't share the same single cause, while making a case that '10^9999' (?) problems and deaths are caused by a single cause, 'religion.' Taking the example of the second Congolese civil war, a conflict not caused by religion, with estimates ranging from 2.7 to 5.4 million deaths - I'd say that's more people than killed in terrorist attacks of Jihadis. 30 years ago, it wasn't religion causing paranoid people to build bomb shelters to survive a possible nuclear winter. You can't argue that just because a small minority of the world's religious people (mostly from a militant sect within one religion only) carry out atrocities on the basis of their religion, that religion in general should be blamed. That's akin to saying all forms of government cause mass murder and should be opposed because 'hey remember Stalin and Hitler.'


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## InLight-Tone (Nov 14, 2015)

Religion of any kind, is a dilution/division of human attention away from what matters that WE are A/Live here and now, that WE are Sun/Light, Air, Water, and Earth in animation and that alone is a sacred thing. People who are "checked out" from religion and the belief in myriad "gods" and "heavens" are trying to divert attention away from this divine experience and what could be a Paradisical LIFE experience for ALL if WE could grasp and root into it instead of continually stepping out the door.

That IS isis...

Don't agree with me? Go take a stiff dose of mushrooms out in nature alone and get back to me what you feel accordingly. WE are nourished and animated by the same Sun/Light, WE breathe and are enLivened by the same Air, We are made of the same water, and WE are made of the same Earth (all of which came from the Sun/Light)...

("Turn a people against themselves, and they are easy to contain" Caesar)


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 14, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> I totally agree that the killing of a doctor who performs an abortion is a heinous act of murder and terrorism by someone crazed, by religion or chemistry. I also think it's taking things far afield and is not particularly germane. When a highly armed group of Christians goes to a Planned Parenthood rally and murders 100 people, that'll form an equivalence.


Thank you.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 14, 2015)

givemenoughrope said:


> I'd sooner stare at the wall. I have no idea what makes you think I would. I'm fully aware of their (and CNN, etc.) cheerleading.


Soundhound has accused me of watching Fox News multiple times eve after I told him over and over that it is not in my TV package. He thinks I'm lying, and he'll think you're lying as well, probably.


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## Soundhound (Nov 14, 2015)

Michael you always do this, you take offense so easily, when no offense is given. Things do not seem as black and white to me as they do to you. Maybe this has something to do with evangelical Christianity? Let's start with your 'science'. The idea of when 'life' begins is something not set in stone and the subject of much debate currently, is it not? Can you give your source for your claim that all 'embryologists, without exception, believe that life begins at conception?' This sounds like something from an anti abortion flyer, what is your source?


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## Soundhound (Nov 14, 2015)

I'm not saying that religion is the cause of all the world's problems. I'm saying that it is often and easily used to further political ends. It's much easier to get the foot soldiers to go out and risk their lives when they believe they are doing so in the service of a god. 

Religion, to me, is primitive superstition, nothing more and nothing less—something we will eventually outgrow. Just as we no longer think that lightning is caused by angry gods, one day we will no longer think the universe was created by an overarching intelligence. 

The terrible sorrows we endure, the loss of a loved one, the end of one's own life, can be terrifying, and living with the notion that it's all going to be okay in the end must be comforting. I understand how powerful religion is, and the fear that must come from the idea of no longer have the security and comfort that come from it. I've lived my whole life without the slightest belief in anything supernatural, and I'm not scared. I'm fine. I'm good! If there turns out to be a god, great! Would love to find out more, but I've never heard one iota of convincing evidence that such a thing exists. I'm not against it philosophically, it just seems like childish, indeed wild eyed, superstition to me based on everything I've heard. 

Religion is not the only problem in the world, far from it! Lust for power, greed, corruption, unregulated capitalism, xenophobia...plenty of blame to go around. But religion doesn't help. It causes more harm than good. 





Lode_Runner said:


> May I ask the people in this thread raising Northern Ireland as an example of Christian extremism, what the theological dispute was between the IRA and UDA/UVF? Were they fighting over the authority of the Pope, scripture alone, the importance of praying to Mary and Saints, Purgatory, indulgences, faith alone etc with one group trying to forcibly convert the others to create a Catholic or Protestant only Ireland? Or was it not a religious dispute, but rather indigenous nationalist Irish (who are distinguishable by their Catholic faith) rejecting the colonial presence of pro-United Kingdom Ulster Scots (who are distinguishable by their Protestant faith)? I know my question sounds rhetorical, but I am seriously asking because I really can't see the religious dimension to the Northern Ireland conflict beyond the fact that the opposing sides come from different Christian denominations. It's the same when people raise the persecution of Muslim Rohingya's in Burma by Buddhist Rakhine - just because the Rakhine are Buddhist doesn't mean they are persecuting non-Buddhists because they believe Buddha told them to do it.
> 
> And regarding religion being the source of all the World's problems? How is religion responsible for the Holocaust (Shoah)? what's religion got to do with the Stalinist purges? is religion behind the actions of Pol Pot or Pinochet? Was religion a major motivating factor in the First or Second World Wars? Is religion the inspiration for Mexico's drug wars, or for the genocide against Tutsi's in Rwanda, or for the Congolese civil wars or the civil war in South Sudan? Was religion the motivator for Dylann Roof or Anders Breivik or the recent sword attack in Sweden? It seems to me that secular ideologies have racked up a higher body count over the past century than religion ever could.


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## chimuelo (Nov 14, 2015)

Its the same old smarter guys having stupid guys do thier dirty work.
Religion and nationalism are the excuse.

Bin Laden didnt go down fighting. Hid behind a woman. True warrior of God.
JFK actually served which is why he avoided war.
Cheney and Bush.....
Well they swore to fight on until the last drop of your blood.

If there is a heaven and virgins are waiting for these dirtbags I hope its a bunch of Rosie ODonnell clones.

Viva La France........


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## Soundhound (Nov 14, 2015)

Yes, I know, I heard you. I don't see the difference. A man is shot because his religion tells him that the legal medical procedure the doctor regularly performs constitutes murder. Another person is shot because the shooter is told by his religion that this person must be killed in order for his religious group to achieve its goals of creating a holy state for man on earth (something like that). 

How is that different?





NYC Composer said:


> And my point is that it's a HUGE difference.


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## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Nov 14, 2015)

Soundhound said:


> But religion doesn't help. It causes more harm than good.



It is not religion, per se, except for maybe the ones who say in their sacred text to kill all non-believers. I think those that have in their sacred text to forgive everyone, including your enemies might do more good for society than harm. You can't blame evil acts in the name of one religion on all religions just because you are agnostic or atheist.

This was a horrible evil act perpetrated by evil people, not religious people. Most Muslims that I know ignore the kill all non-believers part of their sacred text. Most Christians that I know ignore the Old Testament verses that say that people who plant different crops side by side must be stoned to death, as do my Jewish friends. One bad apple spoils the whole bunch, so the saying goes. It is a handful of bad apples causing this chaos. They are not acting as representatives of their religion. They are pure evil, representing evil. They are sociopaths who have lost sense of right and wrong that we are all born with. They feel no love nor remorse. I feel sorry for them and I pray that they find their hearts again.

My prayers and grief go out to the French families of those lost who were left behind and must live with the consequences caused by these sociopaths, as well as the families of the downed Russian airliner. Truly a sad week for Humanity.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 14, 2015)

I stopped believing anything about the religious aspect of my religion when I actually started reading and understanding the words I had been saying by rote, in Hebrew (which I spoke but didn't understand much) and English. That was over 40 years ago. At that point I became pretty horrified with Adonai, who was no doubt a good model of the usual highly powerful tyrant of the time, i.e. vengeful, petty, jealous, engaged in the reflexive and whim-based use of power. The rather horrific examples of teaching moments that he indulged himself in with my forebears and their enemies were illustrative. Examples from the texts of other religions that I've read over the years are equally horrifying, but much of the whole thing is exactly that-they were written thousands of years ago about cultures not far removed (or not removed at all) from agrarian and hunter gatherer times.

It's fine with me whatever people believe-what they do, on the other hand, is the defining measure of their humanity to me. Much is made about the the major monotheistic religions sharing certain humanistic principles, but in practice thing tend to be somewhat different. In the case of Islamic extremism, people really don't strap bombs to themselves and prepare to die unless they believe there's something on the other side. This strikes me as pretty dangerous magical thinking which is translated into murderous acts.

I agree that secular ideologies can be at least as dangerous as non-secular ones. Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Mao, too many to name. What I think is important to note, though, is that this is NOW. This is not 70 years ago, not 50 years ago-now, and the present has proven to be an existential threat for a whole bunch of people. As such, it needs both present thinking and forward thinking. Examples from history are instructive but are not helpful in the immediate term.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 14, 2015)

Soundhound, from your words:"The difference is Christianity has (hopefully) progressed past the time when this was done en masse."

the "en masse" part is, to me, a huge difference. Isolated incidents of religious nuts vs. wholescale slaughter. Not philosophically different-just the body count.


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## Lode_Runner (Nov 14, 2015)

I think you've misunderstood my point NYC Composer. I agree, Jihadism is the most prominent threat to European nations at this point in time. Yes, these groups are a bunch of religious nuts motivated by an imagined millenarian religious war being waged against them by 'crusaders'. But should atheists be using that as an excuse to tar with the same brush all Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindus, Baha'is, or non violent Muslims for the actions of Wahhabi Islamist Jihadists? Just because most Communist or Nazi violence took place over half a century ago, doesn't mean that we can now pretend that world would be a wonderful peaceful place if people weren't religious.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 14, 2015)

If I had missed your point, I wouldn't have agreed with you.  Maybe re-read?


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## Soundhound (Nov 14, 2015)

I just looked up some statistics on anti abortion violence, and it surprised me. It's not isolated or unusual in any way. Anti-abortion violence has been consistent throughout the years since roe v wade. It is fueled by the insanity of religious fervor. Again, I fail to see the difference. 



NYC Composer said:


> Soundhound, from your words:"The difference is Christianity has (hopefully) progressed past the time when this was done en masse."
> 
> the "en masse" part is, to me, a huge difference. Isolated incidents of religious nuts vs. wholescale slaughter. Not philosophically different-just the body count.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 14, 2015)

Ok, so-over two hundred people in a plane, probably close to two hundred in Paris, 50 in Beirut (my figures may be way off, but let's say) in what, ten days? I mean, I'm not going backwards to the 3000 on 9/11 or the Cole or the Marine base or whatever, but what's the worst ten days in the history of anti-abortion zealot murders? I'm not even gonna Google it since you already have.

C'mon, man. My only assertion is that it's a question of scale, not philosophy. Why argue for the sake of argument? (although I don't really mind).


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## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Nov 14, 2015)

Soundhound said:


> I just looked up some statistics on anti abortion violence, and it surprised me. It's not isolated or unusual in any way. Anti-abortion violence has been consistent throughout the years since roe v wade. It is fueled by the insanity of religious fervor. Again, I fail to see the difference.



Because that is what makes the news. Again you blame all religious and religion people on the acts of a few bad apples who don't follow the guidance of their sacred text. Do you think that Buddha or Muhammad or Jesus would have told followers to their face to kill innocent people like this or to bomb abortion clinics?

What the news people do not report are the millions of cases of sacrifice that religious people make to help the needy. It happens every day but it never makes the news because they don't see it as news unless it is controversial. Helping people in need is not controversial. It is ho hum to the news media. How many needy people did you help last week? I can give you a list of many people who helped at least 3 people last week. They are all religious people.

If you lose sanity next week and kill someone, I could then say to the world: "He did this bad thing. He is a composer. All composers are evil people. Prove me wrong. Give me one example of a composer who was a perfect human being. Not only are composers not perfect, they kill people. Soundhound just proved my point. Composers are bad because they make music and they kill people."

See my point? It is OK if you don't. It does not matter if you do not believe in God because He believes in you.


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## Vlzmusic (Nov 14, 2015)

SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. said:


> Do you think that Buddha or Muhammad or Jesus would have told followers to kill innocent people like this?



Well, in case anyone in the list did exist, which I highly doubt, Muhammad supposedly acted, and said exactly that. He is not described as your neighborhood doctor, you know...


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## NYC Composer (Nov 14, 2015)

Oy. I'm glad the mythical creature I don't believe in believes in me. I hope unicorns believe in me too. (You don't see how silly that sounds to someone who doesn't share your faith? I'm delighted your faith is something that makes you and your co-religionists happy...but can't you leave it there?)


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## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Nov 15, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Oy. I'm glad the mythical creature I don't believe in believes in me. I hope unicorns believe in me too. (You don't see how silly that sounds to someone who doesn't share your faith? I'm delighted your faith is something that makes you and your co-religionists happy...but can't you leave it there?)



That sentence that bothers you actually did leave it there. It does not matter to me if you believe either. Can't I say what I think though without sarcasm in return? ☺ Actually, I love sarcasm, You keep it coming. Sarcasm is a grumpy man's wit and I like that in a person.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 15, 2015)

I disagree. It's like saying "unicorns exist, and they believe in you whether you believe in them or not." That's not sarcasm, that's exactly how I feel about it...that that sort of statement is totally unecessary. Believe what you will, but don't sell it.


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## Soundhound (Nov 15, 2015)

you're missing the point I'm making, or trying to make, probably because I'm not making it very well! I don't blame all religious people, or even religion itself. I'm not saying, at all, that religion is solely what caused this to happen. but religion, fundamentalist religion, makes something like this much easier to happen. getting people to sacrifice their own lives in the cause of something greater is way easier when the promise of some infinite and ultimate righteousness and justice is offered as fuel. Paris is the result of a confluence of greedy, meddling inperialism by the west with much older regional rivalries and struggle for power. I think Dick Cheney and George Bush are just as responsible for this as the Saudis. But to me, on balance, for all the comfort religion provides people, in the end, it does more harm than good. to my way of thinking it's an ancient cancer that we will someday be rid of, if it doesn't give us the green light to blow ourselves to smithereens in the meantime.





SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. said:


> Because that is what makes the news. Again you blame all religious and religion people on the acts of a few bad apples who don't follow the guidance of their sacred text. Do you think that Buddha or Muhammad or Jesus would have told followers to their face to kill innocent people like this or to bomb abortion clinics?
> 
> What the news people do not report are the millions of cases of sacrifice that religious people make to help the needy. It happens every day but it never makes the news because they don't see it as news unless it is controversial. Helping people in need is not controversial. It is ho hum to the news media. How many needy people did you help last week? I can give you a list of many people who helped at least 3 people last week. They are all religious people.
> 
> ...


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## Soundhound (Nov 15, 2015)

I know, I hear you, but we're at cross purposes here for sure. I'm not saying that abortion doctor assassinations are currently in any way comparable in scale to the murders by Islamic extremists. of course not. I'm saying that what is causing them is the same thing, which is religious extremism. They both attempt to do the same thing; further their agenda through fear and terror. 




NYC Composer said:


> Ok, so-over two hundred people in a plane, probably close to two hundred in Paris, 50 in Beirut (my figures may be way off, but let's say) in what, ten days? I mean, I'm not going backwards to the 3000 on 9/11 or the Cole or the Marine base or whatever, but what's the worst ten days in the history of anti-abortion zealot murders? I'm not even gonna Google it since you already have.
> 
> C'mon, man. My only assertion is that it's a question of scale, not philosophy. Why argue for the sake of argument? (although I don't really mind).


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## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Nov 15, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> I disagree. It's like saying "unicorns exist, and they believe in you whether you believe in them or not." That's not sarcasm, that's exactly how I feel about it...that that sort of statement is totally unecessary. Believe what you will, but don't sell it.



You are selling your non-belief. So what you are saying is that only atheists are allowed to post their opinion on this forum? Don't believe what you will not believe, but don't sell it. You are the one not leaving it there because believers really bug you and you have to say something about it when believers express an opinion on the Internet. Don't let my belief bug you so much. I actually like you and I love your posts about music, so let us be music friends and agree to disagree about unicorns.

This post is about the sad truth of those killed in Paris so I want take it back to that and say again that what happened was horrible and made me sad. I agree with the many posts that say that the world seems backwards these days. It used to be that honesty was rewarded and dishonesty was punished by society. Today, the opposite is true. In the 1980s I wore a T-shirt that said: "Everything is the opposite of what it really is, isn't it?" That was not well accepted back then. Now, that has come true.


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## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Nov 15, 2015)

SilentBob said:


> Have you ever read the Quoran?


Yes. I studied all religions in the 1980s. I was seeking so I read all of the texts. I still have a copy of the Quran on my shelf. Of course huge texts like the Quran and the Bible can not be gotten by reading like a book so I bolstered it by talking to people who were believers in all of the religions. I was agnostic back then but I wanted to know why people believed in what they believed in and if there were any truths to be found by studying them all and talking to believers of all faiths.

I found no answers doing it that way.

I was also interested in American politics so I read and studied much of the notes that James Madison wrote down during the debates on the US constitution. About 20 volumes and fascinating stuff in there. Current courts are reinterpreting the constitution and a chief justice in the 1970s said "The constitution means what the Supreme Court says it means." The very first Supreme Court justice said this though: "The intention of the legislature is the law of the land." In studying the James Madison notes I was trying to ascertain the truth about what the founding fathers intended. I am a truth seeker by nature, so yes I did study the Quran and the Muslim religion.

Have you studied the Quran and the Bible and other religious texts yourself? Thanks for asking Bob.


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## Soundhound (Nov 15, 2015)

Totally agree. And I'm not saying that 'we' deserve this, of course not. I'm saying that it's important at times like this to understand what is driving this. As so many warned about Iraq, you break it, you bought it. So yes we have considerable responsibility for what is going on and therefor need to do the right thing. Blind fury is understandable, I feel it for those poor people who were murdered for absolutely no reason. If bombing the crap out of Isis will make this stop, great! Bomb the crap out of them. I'm no expert of course, (I can't even get my freaking string sections coherent today!) But I know it's not that simple. Here's another interesting piece I read today. 

http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/




givemenoughrope said:


> Does it sound that way? Really? Of course I know the damage the US under the last several presidents/cabinets has done in the region. It's no secret. Are our citizens responsible for it? No. Even if some are confused enough to support it (and aren't quite sure what they're supporting).


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## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Nov 15, 2015)

Soundhound said:


> Totally agree. And I'm not saying that 'we' deserve this, of course not. I'm saying that it's important at times like this to understand what is driving this. As so many warned about Iraq, you break it, you bought it. So yes we have considerable responsibility for what is going on and therefor need to do the right thing. Blind fury is understandable, I feel it for those poor people who were murdered for absolutely no reason. If bombing the crap out of Isis will make this stop, great! Bomb the crap out of them. I'm no expert of course, (I can't even get my freaking string sections coherent today!) But I know it's not that simple. Here's another interesting piece I read today.
> 
> http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/




I agree with everything that you said in this reply @*Soundhound*. I think that we agree on what is driving this, we just give it a different name. I read the article. Could not help but think that the story may have been tainted by the authors own beliefs though but I enjoyed the read. But all of these posts on this topic on VI-Control are tainted by personal beliefs. The truth about this is elusive because none of us are there, witnessing what is reported. We can only rely on second hand knowledge. It is good that we are all discussing it though. What ever the driving force is, it is bigger than any one of us, so we must figure it out together. Not just the composers here on VI but all Humans.

Open discussion on this is helpful to us all. I love that someone posted this on my favorite forum. Thank you @
*Baron Greuner*


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 15, 2015)

I watch Fox News all the time.

On UK news this morning we finally got an Intelligence Agency guy come on and say Merkel was basically mad and French security is a joke. About time too. People just need to understand that and when they can grasp that, then they will understand why things in France happen. What France needs is their president to step down. Then they need to stop all this flowers love and peace shit and start living with the reality they have got. Not what they imagine they'd like.
What Merkel has done is save up a shit load of trouble for Germany and countries in Europe for the future. Americans will eventually stop coming to Europe for their holidays if they haven't done so already. And the sooner we can get rid of Cameron the better. Obama has to go in a year anyway thankfully.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 15, 2015)

Baron Greuner said:


> I watch Fox News all the time.
> 
> On UK news this morning we finally got an Intelligence Agency guy come on and say Merkel was basically mad and French security is a joke. About time too. People just need to understand that and when they can grasp that, then they will understand why things in France happen. What France needs is their president to step down. Then they need to stop all this flowers love and peace shit and start living with the reality they have got. Not what they imagine they'd like.
> What Merkel has done is save up a shit load of trouble for Germany and countries in Europe for the future. Americans will eventually stop coming to Europe for their holidays if they haven't done so already. And the sooner we can get rid of Cameron the better. Obama has to go in a year anyway thankfully.


Yes, I anxiously await the return of American Neo-Cons and the next large scale American war in the Middle East. After all, the last one was such a resounding success....


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## NYC Composer (Nov 15, 2015)

SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. said:


> You are selling your non-belief. So what you are saying is that only atheists are allowed to post their opinion on this forum? Don't believe what you will not believe, but don't sell it. You are the one not leaving it there because believers really bug you and you have to say something about it when believers express an opinion on the Internet. Don't let my belief bug you so much. I actually like you and I love your posts about music, so let us be music friends and agree to disagree about unicorns.
> 
> This post is about the sad truth of those killed in Paris so I want take it back to that and say again that what happened was horrible and made me sad. I agree with the many posts that say that the world seems backwards these days. It used to be that honesty was rewarded and dishonesty was punished by society. Today, the opposite is true. In the 1980s I wore a T-shirt that said: "Everything is the opposite of what it really is, isn't it?" That was not well accepted back then. Now, that has come true.


I'm absolutely, totally into being pals- but I can't agree to things I don't agree to. You're just flat out wrong about my "selling my non belief"- I am happy to have you believe anything you want to believe. I have no desire, at ALL, for you to join the Church of Atheism. I do not think you would be better off if you were atheistic. I do not evangelize for atheism. I do not suggest "well, whether you believe or not, atheism will be there for you as a rational stronghold if you just let it." Sorry, I'm just not selling my non-religion....but I believe part of your mission is to "share the good news." Of course, maybe I'm wrong. Back in '73, it happened, but just that once


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 15, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Yes, I anxiously await the return of American Neo-Cons and the next large scale American war in the Middle East. After all, the last one was such a resounding success....



That is almost a certainty. We can't have liberals running round and letting people get murdered now can we Larry?

A reporter mentioned that a lot of the people killed were young people. This of course refers to the theatre where the group were playing. What he noticed in the hospital where they were taken was how silent they all were. Was this from shock? Yes, almost certainly but I also like to think it was the realisation that all this liberal crap needs to be silenced.

Incidentally, did the rock band playing survive? Anyone know?


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## Astronaut FX (Nov 15, 2015)

I've seen several sources indicate that the band did get out safely.


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## germancomponist (Nov 15, 2015)

So read this:


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## givemenoughrope (Nov 15, 2015)

Tone Deaf said:


> I've seen several sources indicate that the band did get out safely.



They got out but one touring merch guy did not.


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## Soundhound (Nov 15, 2015)

Spoken like a true fascist. 



Baron Greuner said:


> the realisation that all this liberal crap needs to be silenced.


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 15, 2015)

Soundhound said:


> Spoken like a true fascist.



Sound, you can't even count fucking 5/4 time. Why the fuck should I care about what you think?


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## Soundhound (Nov 15, 2015)

Spoken like a Fox News audience member: ignorant, hateful, jealous, spiteful. But most of all, and ultimately, stupid.


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## chimuelo (Nov 15, 2015)

Jeez. 
CNN look like idiots as Amanpour and Anderson Cooper trying to give contradictory orders to camera crews and interupt each other trying to be the lead voice...
France24 is on it as usual.
They just report without the injecture and misguided opinions of our cackling Hens at CNN.


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## ysnyvz (Nov 15, 2015)

SilentBob said:


> You ask: "Do you think that ..... Muhammad ..... would have told followers to their face to kill innocent people like this .........?"
> 
> My humble answer: "Yes and yes and definetely yes" (Quran Chapter 2 Verse 191, 2:193, 2:216, 4:74, 4:91 4:104, 5:33, 8:12, 8:17, 8:39, 9:5, 9:29, 9:41, 47:4 .........)


All of those verses are about disbelievers and polytheists who spent their life attacking, torturing and killing Muslims when Muhammad was alive, not today. They had to leave their hometown, Mecca. Allah's orders was about self defense. You're doing a common mistake (taking verses out of context) and claiming Muslims are barbarians and murderers.
Muslims are doing a lot of wrong things. Terrorists kill a lot of Muslims almost everyday. Terror has no religion. These are people's fault, not Quran's or Prophet Muhammad's.
We are sorry. We don't want anybody to be killed. We are praying for peace everyday and doing everything we can.
My condolences to all French people.


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## chimuelo (Nov 15, 2015)

Before the silencing of free speech takes hold......

One More VIVA LA FRANCE.


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## Soundhound (Nov 15, 2015)

Why lock the thread? I was going to put Baron on ignore so I don't get drawn into a pointless conversation with a Fox News audience member, but that's just for me - why should the discussion be otherwise muted?


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## Zhao Shen (Nov 15, 2015)

Interesting to follow the devolution of this thread into petty bickering. The takeaway from this entire thing for me personally has been that we should of course all stand by Paris in this dark time. Also that everyone's opinions are opinions, no matter how much someone may attempt to portray them as fact (this is true x1E9999 when religion is involved).


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 15, 2015)

Zhao Shen said:


> Interesting to follow the devolution of this thread into petty bickering.



It's the civilized West in all its moral superiority.


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## germancomponist (Nov 15, 2015)

Watch this and you will understand where the islam-bashing comes from!

It is their monetary system what "we" do not like!


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## Allegro (Nov 15, 2015)

Lode_Runner said:


> Sorry Allegro, I don't really get your point. You seem to be dismissing the relevance of many conflicts, repressions, genocides etc many with body counts in the millions, simply because they don't share the same single cause, e that '10^9999' (?)'



Oh that 10^9999 figure was an obvious exaggeration and I wrote it to denote a figure and to prove my point. I am not in any way claiming that problems caused by religion VS any other thing are smaller or greater. While I work on improving my forum posting skills to type better, this was my actual point:

Ending the madness caused by religion is simpler to think about and the fixes are easier to implement, one fix can help us get rid of the immoralities of various religions. More "bang for your buck" so to speak.
While in your case, the deaths are no smaller or of any less value, but the complexities of politics, different countries, their separate laws, their own politicians etc are so complex and blurry that we're better off starting out from religion. The source. They have more things in common. After all, we are talking here about solving problems.


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## Lode_Runner (Nov 16, 2015)

germancomponist said:


> Watch this and you will understand where the islam-bashing comes from!
> 
> It is their monetary system what "we" do not like!




This looks interesting, but I can only understand every third word


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## Hannes_F (Nov 16, 2015)

@Lode_Runner: Basically the video says that the islamic banking system is the banking of the future because it does not allow collecting interest for lending money, it only allows trades of real values, and it only allows trades between two real partners. Thus it minimizes risk and islamic banks have come out of the financial crisis better than traditional banks (so the video says).


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## Lode_Runner (Nov 17, 2015)

Vielen dank Hannes


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## Jake (Nov 17, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> @Lode_Runner: Basically the video says that the islamic banking system is the banking of the future because it does not allow collecting interest for lending money, it only allows trades of real values, and it only allows trades between two real partners. Thus it minimizes risk and islamic banks have come out of the financial crisis better than traditional banks (so the video says).



As I understand it, and perhaps I've got the wrong information, they do not charge interest, they just charge other "fees" that make up for the lost revenue via interest and thereby comply with their beliefs in this regard. Bankers are no different any where in the world. It's a business, and profit is the motive.


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## Hannes_F (Nov 17, 2015)

Yes Jake, good objection. In the film they said that in the case of a house buy the bank buys the house and rents it to the client as hire-purchase. Thus the risk would be divided between the bank and the client. 
It would be interesting to get this thoroughly explained by an impartial banking insider that understands both systems.


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## Jake (Nov 17, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> Yes Jake, good objection. In the film they said that in the case of a house buy the bank buys the house and rents it to the client as hire-purchase. Thus the risk would be divided between the bank and the client.
> It would be interesting to get this thoroughly explained by an impartial banking insider that understands both systems.



I'm not a banker, but I did get a good nights sleep last night! (Reference to a silly commercial aired in the U.S. for many years for those that wonder what in the world I just said.)

Risk is always divided between the bank and another party. 
In most countries there is a lien on the property held by the lender until the balance is paid in full. There is also the issue of down payment, although that is now far less today than some years ago, or even non existent. 
Never the less, the banks interests are covered in one manner or another or you can rest assured they are not entering into the contract.

I would wager that if the Islamic bank is buying the house and renting it back then the rent will include everything that interest would have equaled (at the very least). 

Just a side note for those who might be interested. When you deposit money with a bank you are agreeing (in the fine print) to become a non secured lender to that bank. In other words, once you deposit money in your account you have agreed to loan them your money, with which they can do anything they desire no matter the level of risk, and should they fail in any way, you the depositor (lender) are the very last person in line for repayment. It's kink of like what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine. Of course there is the FDIC here in the U.S. which has approximately .25 cents (one quarter of one cent, not twenty five cents) on deposit for every dollar in the system that is considered insured. That should surely make one feel better about being a non secured creditor!


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## pixel (Nov 17, 2015)

Interesting thing is, reading interviews with imprisoned terrorists from ISIS or other similar group, they barely know Sharia or even Koran (literacy is rare too). Lot of them work for ISIS because they have no money to feed their families and when they get there, they can't retreat. 
IMO religion, immigrants and all what we hear in media is a smokescreen to hide politics real deal. 
Let's face it, we are not allowed to know what is really happening.
Who know history then know that civilians are just a pawns in big players game


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 17, 2015)

pixel said:


> Interesting thing is, reading interviews with imprisoned terrorists from ISIS or other similar group, they barely know Sharia or even Koran (literacy is rare too). Lot of them work for ISIS because they have no money to feed their families and when they get there, they can't retreat.



One would think that the presumably educated western democratic world citizen would know that. But, oh well. The popularity of Trump, Le Pen, Orban, Strache, PEGIDA etc. paints a different picture of the public wit.


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## chimuelo (Nov 18, 2015)

I like the way Hollande Putin and Obama took Trumps advice.
Disrupt their revenue. Bomb the oil fields.
Ya think?


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## FriFlo (Nov 19, 2015)

I don't think we need an Islamic banking system, but we certainly need a new one. Yes, banking is about profit and it has always been. It is just a matter of where there are limits to how much this profit may be in forms of regulations. In this way, I find the Islamic banking system highly inspiring, but I would be strongly opposed to call it Islamic, as state and religion must always be separated.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 19, 2015)

I think "The United Bank of Islam" might be a non-starter in the West at the moment. I'm just sayin'.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 19, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> This is excellent liberal-speak,.



Actually, the blowback argument comes from all sides.

I agree with Soundhound 100% that a lot of this is a consequence of our having an empire and all the rest that goes with that argument. But at this point that's all completely moot; it's *nowhere near* that simple, and just getting out of the Middle East wouldn't solve it. In this case the Syrian war had a lot to do with a drought, for example.

(As an aside, I've currently switched my support from Bernie Sanders - with whom I agree about almost everything - to Hillary Clinton - with whom I agree less - mostly for this exact reason: it's all way more complicated than general concepts; she gets it all inside out in great detail, and he just isn't there.)

***

Anyway, I stayed out of this thread until now because I wasn't in the mood to read what I figured - rightly - I'd be reading. The whole thing was too upsetting for me to step back and argue/discuss dispassionately.

But now I want to make one point: CONFLICT IS NEVER ABOUT RELIGION.

Religion is *always* just the excuse. It's used for power and/or justification. Harsh ideology is often just a variation.

And usually it's about resources. Someone posted that the Crusades were about plunder, which is right, but they were specifically about plundering resources. Not about spreading Christianity.

This terrorism has the weight of a desperate society behind it.


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## ysnyvz (Nov 19, 2015)

SilentBob said:


> No, I did not.


You did it AGAIN here:


SilentBob said:


> Perhaps because I am not interested in ANY context, where violent combating, subjugation and killing of others will be legitimated as a divine commandment.


It's not my concern what you believe but you are insulting billions of people. It's not a random book and it's not an instruction manual for violence. Have some respect.


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## emid (Nov 19, 2015)

SilentBob said:


> Of course ...the context. How could I forget them.
> 
> Perhaps because I am not interested in ANY context......



I didn't want to take part in this discussion but I can see where you are coming from. My muslim friends have told me that ISIS and such have exactly similar views like you, i.e., taking Koranic verses out of context and become blind in hatred. This is another discussion why they chose to do so and who is getting benefits. But I, as Christian, can show you the verses in Bible, if taken out of context would justify the same barbaric atrocities. Sorry man, but reading cheap websites and free pamphlets won't help but only to spew venom and hatred. Your choice!


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## gyprock (Nov 19, 2015)

I watched a documentary the other day about how small Syrian and Iraqi kids are being trained to be the next ISIS fighters. Initially they do not want to be part of the training but if they don't participate they are severely punished. They showed one child having his hand and foot publicly chopped off to show the others kids what could happen if they disobey.

The training is based on extreme repetition of slogans and actions so eventually it is so ingrained that they don't need to or can't think about any other viewpoints. They are increasingly being used as the decapitators and killers of hostages and others. The only view of the West that they get is totally distorted by their trainers so they eventually become the equivalent of velociraptors in Jurassic Park.

These velociraptors will try to replicate globally and when the time comes, strike. Note that this replication does not need to be done directly in Syria or Iraq. It can be done anywhere with the right form of self or 3rd party radicalisation. How to prevent this from growing exponentially is the challenge.


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