# Endlessly in search for a 61-88 key keyboard that I don't hate.



## Jorf88

Edit: I've updated my thoughts on some of the controllers in the list as I've tried them.
Alright, this is going to be longwinded, buckle up.

I'm in search of a 61-88 key keyboard for use as a midi controller at my PC. My current setup doesn't actually have room for an 88, but I would make adjustments if necessary to get a keyboard that I like.

Prerequisites: I can't put a keyboard under my desk. I'm 6'6"/198cm tall. The tops of my knees are about 2.5" below the bottom of my desk. This also means it has to be slab-style. I also can't change my desk, room is packed as-is.

Location-stuff: I'm in the North East USA. Prices I mention will be USD. I realize we have a pretty global audience on this forum

*My current keyboards*:
*NI KK M32*
I got this as my first midi controller when I was getting into this hobby (do I regret this?... well that's a loaded question now, isn't it? my poor wallet.) It was a great deal during black friday, and one of the few that NI has ever done where they did nice Komplete upgrade pricing during BF (they usually only do it during the summer sale). So, that was my first board, and now it's demoted to a Kontakt/KK instrument browser and secondary keyboard (I'll octave switch it down to -2 and -1 to just operate key switches when I really need to).

*Roland FP-90*
There's a lot I could say about this piano, and 98% of it is great. I love it as a digital piano, the PHA-50 action is absolutely fantastic. This was actually a present from my parents and grandmother one year for the holidays. The issue is that it's on a big Z stand in a different room than my rig, and it absolutely won't fit on my desk, and I can't put it next to it either. I'm really contemplating the effort of the desk reorganization to make it happen, but I'm not sure I _want _this beast as a MIDI controller. I love it for piano, but I don't think I would like it for software instruments, as I find playing quick repeated notes on it to be cumbersome since it's just a little bouncy and slightly too heavy for VIs.

*Nektar Panorama T6 *
As (what I thought would be) a remedy, I decided to get a Nektar Panorama T6 about 3 months ago.
When I bought it, I was told by a person at the store I bought it from that it would be returnable, but that ended up not being true so I got stuck with it.

The faders (30mm) are workable, a little gritty and a tiny bit of dead-space at each of the poles. 
The pads are nice, very responsive and great sensitivity (adjustable, too).
I'd just as soon get dedicated pieces of kit for those features, though.

The keys are fucking terrible. I've ranted about this in other threads, but I utterly hate them. They're incredibly stiff, and take a horrible amount of sustained pressure to trigger notes. The sensors are up too high, and the depth of key depression is giant. The aftertouch range of that depression is also very spongy.
If you like the feel of the keys on the T6, you will love this keyboard for music production. The layout is good, the customization is great, the materials are better than expected for ~$300 USD. I just abhor the damn keybed and I can't get past that. I tried opening it up, there's no way to fix it.

*My wishlist*:
* I like light actions. Either a hammer weighted one that's exceptionally well balanced, or just light... or a truly semi-weighted action.
* Octave shift buttons highly desired.
* USB MIDI
* Sus pedal port
* Depth less than 14" My desk can't fit any bigger.

pads/faders/knobs all not required. 

Things I've tried:
Where possible, I'll reference specific key *beds*. Praise you manufacturers that actually name/share the names of your keybeds.

*Alesis*:
Recital Pro - I don't recall exactly why I didn't like this one, but I took a picture of it with a thumb down, so I know I tried it. I think it was just stale... reminded me of the Yamaha standard hammer action. So, probably too heavy and a little bouncy.

VI61 - Excellent feeling semi-weighted key action. The first time I've discovered what "semi-weighted" is actually _supposed to mean._ Unfortunately, the sensor positions are still not my favorite... you have to depress the key almost the entire way to produce a note, and then release the key up until basically the top of the action to get it to release. I ordered one of these on a whim and almost kept it, but I think I'll be sending it back for promise of something better. This one surprised me for sure. Excellent quality controller with only a few minor gripes.

*Arturia*:
Keylab 49/61 - I didn't like the keys at all, very hollow and springy feeling.
Keylab 88 (TP100/LR)- Nowhere around me has one out to try, otherwise I'd give it a whirl. Based on what I've heard about the Fatar TP100/LR, I don't think I'd love it.

*Casio*:
Scaled Hammer Action II keybed (CDP-S100, CDP-S150, CDP-S350) & Smart Scaled Hammer Action (PX-S1000, PX-S3000) - To me.. the "smart" doesn't make the latter keybeds feel any different than the former. These are some of my least favorite digital piano keybeds. They're relatively bouncy for percussive piano playing, fine for other types of instruments. Relatively "fast" action. I also really don't like their ivory touch simulated keytops. Roland's feel great. Casio's feel... sticky/tacky.
I'll consider this in the long run, especially given my size constraints, but I hope I can find something I like more.

*Native Instruments*:
M32 - Own it, it's okay but a bit plastic-y and springy/squeaky. Not what I'd want for everyday use, works well to travel with.

A25/49/61 - Distinctly hollow feeling. Too springy. Slightly too stiff.
S61 mk i_:_ I'm specifically talking about the old one here, but I don't like the keys. There's nowhere near me to try a mk ii. I don't think it'd be worth the price for me, I'm not that invested in the Native Instruments controls, I'd rather a better keybed.

*Kawai*:
Haven't gotten to try anything of theirs (aside from a plethora of their real grand/mini grand pianos when I was in college, those were great).

*Novation*:
Launchkey 49/61- felt cheap, plasticy, springy to me.

SL mk3 61- Okay synth action, but it's still a little hollow feeling. The sliders are on the wrong side. Overall it's just too expensive for what _I would use it for_. For anyone wanting a controller with a sequencer to control hardware, give this thing a serious look. For the price, there has to be better for just a MIDI controller.

*Roland*:
PHA-4 keybed (FP30, FP30X, RD88) - Decent keybed, but a little too bouncy and a little too heavy for what I'd want for virtual instruments. I can't imagine playing a flute on this would be pleasant. I also already own a PHA-50 as an FP90, and I do think it's better.

PHA-50 keybed (FP90) - Have it, love it, just a little too heavy for use with all virtual instruments. I've tried my best and it just can't fit on my desk. There's no way to make it happen.

Ivory touch G (Juno DS88) - Not bad, kinda like it. The Juno won't fit on my desk though.
JunoDS61 (synth action) - Hate it. Hollow/plasticy.

*Nektar:*
Panorama T6 - See my rant at the top, I hate these keys. All of the rest of it is great. Additionally, I took it apart, there's no way to adjust the action at all without ruining it.

*Williams*:
Allegro III - Actually not terrible, for the price. I wouldn't want it as a dedicated piano controller but I'm contemplating revisiting it.

Overture 2 - This doesn't work because it's a whole console with a built in stand, but I _love _the keybed on this, it's very light and well balanced. Williams doesn't release much about their keybeds, but I'd assume that since this has a big console portion behind the bed, it probably uses longer sticks and they're able to pivot further back and balance it more properly. The depression depth at the very rear of the black keys indicates that hypothesis is at least partially correct. I wish something that felt like this came in slab form so I could put it on my desk.

*Yamaha*:
Hammer action standard keybed (P45, P125, MX88, MOXF8, MODX8, etc) - Edit: I actually have grown to like this keybed. The P121 is a strong contender (73 key version of the P125) but the lack of general midi features gives me some pause.

---
There's a lot missing from this list. I can't try out many actual MIDI controllers near me. My Guitar Center only has digital pianos out to try, for the most part. My Sam Ash only has whatever is in their used gear room, and a handful of higher end stage pianos (also like a 45 minute drive).


*Budget*
I was originally trying to keep this under $500, and spring up to $1000 if it was something I knew I would _really _like. Now I'm contemplating more expensive territory because I'm convinced that you get what you pay for in keybeds. It just doesn't seem like anything even remotely reasonably priced is going to play like what I want.

I feel whiney, and I know that I am when it comes to musical instruments. I'm very open to suggestions for boards/beds to look at. The Studiologic SL88 grand is on my list, but it'd be a leap of faith to just order one and deal with a return policy if I didn't like it. The new NumaX pianos with upgraded Fatar TP110 and TP400 actions were just announced. Maybe they'll be strong contenders. 

I'd welcome any suggestions, or just some company as I ramble to myself in this void of a forum.


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## Elrik Settee

What does 

"feels stale" 

mean?


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## Jorf88

Elrik Settee said:


> What does
> 
> "feels stale"
> 
> mean?


A very valid question. I guess any keybed that I describe that way, I have no idea where I am in the stroke of depressing a key. There's little that changes about its feedback, and it usually sticks just a tiny bit at the bottom of the depression of a key. It doesn't rebound quickly, which makes quick playing feel sluggish.


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## jmauz

I've had the Nektar LX88 for years and I don't have any of the key issues you mentioned. Perhaps a different model by Nektar would be better?


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## Jorf88

jmauz said:


> I've had the Nektar LX88 for years and I don't have any of the key issues you mentioned. Perhaps a different model by Nektar would be better?


I hadn't returned to that idea... I was originally going to get an LX61+ and then I decided to get the T6 because it was apparently the more premium version. I assume the LX series would have essentially the same keybed.

I would have to find somewhere to try it in person.


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## fakemaxwell

Which version of the Arturia Keylab? The Essential has a cheap keybed, the 61 MkII has the same keys as their MatrixBrute, and they're pretty dang nice. Synth style action but you can still play piano on it fairly well, especially with a velocity curve controller like in Pianoteq.


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## Jorf88

fakemaxwell said:


> Which version of the Arturia Keylab? The Essential has a cheap keybed, the 61 MkII has the same keys as their MatrixBrute, and they're pretty dang nice. Synth style action but you can still play piano on it fairly well, especially with a velocity curve controller like in Pianoteq.


I tried the nice one, the aluminum body/wood sides with all of the fancy stuff. That being said... the one I was using was a used one in a demo room at a shop. Maybe it was just beat to hell. The keys had a lot of horizontal play, and some of them actually squeaked a little bit. They also had the "hollow" feeling that I really don't care for.

I think I've heard the matrix brute comment before. I know that's supposed to be a really nice synth. I just don't have a great shop near me for testing midi keyboards, basically no one has them out unless they're used units in their used gear room.


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## tebling

I'm on a similar quest. I want 88 keys in the "fast lightweight hammer action" category or a synth action. I'm thinking about buying both an Arturia Essential 88 and an M-Audio Hammer 88 (non Pro) and hopefully only returning one.


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## Alex Fraser

Jorf88 said:


> I hadn't returned to that idea... I was originally going to get an LX61+ and then I decided to get the T6 because it was apparently the more premium version. I assume the LX series would have essentially the same keybed.
> 
> I would have to find somewhere to try it in person.


If you want light keys, the LX series is about as light as it gets. Good velocity sensitivity - but a bit on the cheap feeling side. That said, other Nektar's I've tried have horrible springy keys. A real mixed bag.


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## digitallysane

Might want to check the Roland A-800 Pro?


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## Jorf88

tebling said:


> I'm on a similar quest. I want 88 keys in the "fast lightweight hammer action" category or a synth action. I'm thinking about buying both an Arturia Essential 88 and an M-Audio Hammer 88 (non Pro) and hopefully only returning one.


I forgot to put the M-Audio on my list (I was actually out of space for the forum post anyway).
I tried a Hammer 88 and I thought it was very heavy feeling.

Nowhere around to try an essential 88. I'm pretty sure the keys in the "Essential" line are all the same, and I haven't heard great things. 


Alex Fraser said:


> If you want light keys, the LX series is about as light as it gets. Good velocity sensitivity - but a bit on the cheap feeling side. That said, other Nektar's I've tried have horrible springy keys. A real mixed bag.


The T6 definitely fits into the springy category. I'll see if I can find one somewhere around here. 


digitallysane said:


> Might want to check the Roland A-800 Pro?


I was interested in this board at one point. It seems very old/dated (due to its look). I don't like the combo pitch/mod stick that's sprung in both directions. The slides are in the middle, which is probably workable (but I'd prefer them on the left). I'm certain that there's nowhere around me that has one, though. Do you know if the keybed in this is shared with any other Roland products?


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## dcoscina

Kurzweil came out with a controller for around $595 that has the same keybed as the PC4. I find the Kurzweil stuff to be pretty nice in terms of compromise- weighted action but not too heavy for non piano playing too.


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## Jorf88

dcoscina said:


> Kurzweil came out with a controller for around $595 that has the same keybed as the PC4. I find the Kurzweil stuff to be pretty nice in terms of compromise- weighted action but not too heavy for non piano playing too.


I've seen suggestion that the Kurzweil KM88 has the same RPHA (Real Piano Hammer Action) keybed in it that M-Audio uses in the Hammer 88 and Hammer 88 pro. It'd be great if there was a source of truth for that, because I got to try a Hammer 88 once and didn't care for it that much. It was very heavy.

If the Kurzweil was actually different, I'd love to find somewhere to try it because it's a great price point for not having tons of unnecessary bells & whistles.


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## dcoscina

Jorf88 said:


> I've seen suggestion that the Kurzweil KM88 has the same RPHA (Real Piano Hammer Action) keybed in it that M-Audio uses in the Hammer 88 and Hammer 88 pro. It'd be great if there was a source of truth for that, because I got to try a Hammer 88 once and didn't care for it that much. It was very heavy.
> 
> If the Kurzweil was actually different, I'd love to find somewhere to try it because it's a great price point for not having tons of unnecessary bells & whistles.


The PC4 keybed feels nothing like the Hammer 88. Much lighter.


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## Michael Antrum

I had a Nektar Panorama. I couldn't get shot of it quick enough. The keys were terrible and very noisy. The black key felt like they were from a. different keyboard to the white keys.

Replaced it with a NI 61 - which was far better.


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## Jorf88

Michael Antrum said:


> I had a Nektar Panorama. I couldn't get shot of it quick enough. The keys were terrible and very noisy. The black key felt like they were from a. different keyboard to the white keys.
> 
> Replaced it with a NI 61 - which was far better.


Since owning the T6, Db has become my favorite key to play anything in... I wonder why. 
I wholeheartedly agree that the black keys are much more serviceable, it's the white keys that are abysmal.



dcoscina said:


> The PC4 keybed feels nothing like the Hammer 88. Much lighter.


I'm actually really happy to be wrong, if that's true. I'm definitely going to try and find one to try (either a KM88 or a PC4).

On that note, have you by chance ever tried a Studiologic SL88 grand, or any of the various keyboards that have either a TP40/WOOD or TP40/GH keybed?
I want to know how light those TP40-based actions are, but it seems like there's not many people around with the keyboards that have them (aside from the Doepfer crowd).


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## bill5

digitallysane said:


> Might want to check the Roland A-800 Pro?


Man I got fired up about that until I saw they don't have an 88-key version. I can't justify $400+ for 61 keys.

This search is proving elusive for me too, even if I expand my budget somewhat, at least based on what I'm hearing though I know it's subjective. 88 keys with full transport controls, a decent - not amazing, just decent - synth action or semi-weighted key bed, and oh btw an on/off button (Arturia doesn't believe in them which IMO is so bizarre). I thought Nektar might fill the bill but so skittish with the bad keybed reports -

I'm tempted to pull the trigger on Swissonic - they have an 88-key unit with aftertouch for only around $250. I hate the white cabinet, but if that's the worst I have to deal with - !


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## chimuelo

88 note Casio PX-5‘s have great action and great 4 zone control, not to mention decent sounds/FX.

I have the PX-3S I bought used just for quick gigs and it’s Keybed is really decent.

Only drawback is the Blue/White Orca the Whale paint job.

I beat the crap of keybeds and use an Expensive Master MIDI Controller for most gigs, but Casio makes damn good controller/stage pianos that are small enough somehow, with light weight and full keys, and work really well.

Cheap prices can fool us sometimes.


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## darkogav

I picked up a new Novation Launchkey and have been very happy with the product. Works as expected and no issues. The best midi keyboard controller I ever saw and tried was the Arturia Keylab Pro mk2. But it was very high above my budget.

Good luck.


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## Paul Jelfs

dcoscina said:


> Kurzweil came out with a controller for around $595 that has the same keybed as the PC4. I find the Kurzweil stuff to be pretty nice in terms of compromise- weighted action but not too heavy for non piano playing too.


Hi DC, 
Do you know that as fact - about the Kurzweil having the PC4 keybed, as opposed to the Real Hammer Action one in the M-Audio 88 ? Sorry for questioning you, and I am just really curious, because all the reviews I have seen (which is 1 or 2!) say it has the same keybed as the M-audio and even on the site it lists it as the RHA , that seems like the same words in the M-Audio one. 

It could well be my lack of understanding of keybeds, so I apologise for questioning you, just after a definitive answer  

Some one needs to invent "Virtual Gloves" so you can try these Keybeds from the comfort on our own Project studio


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## dcoscina

I work in keyboard sales in retail. I've played both. They have a different action. The PC4 is not as heavy in its response compared to the Hammer 88. The Arturia Keylab 88 mk2 and NI Komplete Control S88 mk2 have the same keyboard but because they are set in different cases, they do feel different.


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## tebling

I received the Arturia Keylab 88 Essential today hoping for a great "synth action" feel, and... I despise it. I know plenty of people love these, but it just feels "dead" under my fingers. Not sure how better to describe it. I'm a pianist but have used plenty of synths over the years, and I think my tastes in keybeds are just old school or something. Lately I've been using a Novation Supernova II 61 key as my primary controller and it's SO much better.

I see there's a Yamaha KX88 near me, maybe I'll just go totally old school on the theory that they don't make 'em like they used to...


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## dcoscina

tebling said:


> I received the Arturia Keylab 88 Essential today hoping for a great "synth action" feel, and... I despise it. I know plenty of people love these, but it just feels "dead" under my fingers. Not sure how better to describe it. I'm a pianist but have used plenty of synths over the years, and I think my tastes in keybeds are just old school or something. Lately I've been using a Novation Supernova II 61 key as my primary controller and it's SO much better.
> 
> I see there's a Yamaha KX88 near me, maybe I'll just go totally old school on the theory that they don't make 'em like they used to...


The essential is quite a bit different than the full blown KL88mk2


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## jneebz

tebling said:


> I received the Arturia Keylab 88 Essential today hoping for a great "synth action" feel, and... I despise it. I know plenty of people love these, but it just feels "dead" under my fingers. Not sure how better to describe it. I'm a pianist but have used plenty of synths over the years, and I think my tastes in keybeds are just old school or something. Lately I've been using a Novation Supernova II 61 key as my primary controller and it's SO much better.
> 
> I see there's a Yamaha KX88 near me, maybe I'll just go totally old school on the theory that they don't make 'em like they used to...


If you're serious about the KX-88....I got one and although the keyed was a dream, those had a problem where they don't register CC data below a value of 15 (or maybe 25...can't remember). Either way, it was enough to make me switch to another controller....


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## edhamilton

tebling said:


> Lately I've been using a Novation Supernova II 61 key as my primary controller and it's SO much better.


Supernova 2 used a yamaha keybed (I think I remember that) - and its awesome. Best in class.
I dream of a 76 key controller that feels that good.


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## tebling

jneebz said:


> If you're serious about the KX-88....I got one and although the keyed was a dream, those had a problem where they don't register CC data below a value of 15 (or maybe 25...can't remember). Either way, it was enough to make me switch to another controller....


Yeah I did buy the KX88 just a couple hours ago. Before buying I read reports like yours about the data range problem, but it was too good to pass up. Original owner, bought in '86, and only used lightly for about 5 years then stored since the early 90s. I believe it because it is in pristine condition and feels amazing under the fingers. All that for $120! 

If it has a data range issue I'll see if remapping helps. If it doesn't work out, at least it was a cheap experiment!


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## hayvel

The Kawai ES110 would fit your budget. It has a really great, rather light and comfortable hammer action. I played one multiple times at my music store and to me it was one of the best at a moderate price (I am also quite picky regarding action). It comes with midi and has a pedal port (and comes with a pretty nice pedal included). 

Not much else though for controller features. It is very compact for a digital piano, but the action adds some height, so better check the data beforehand if it fits in your space.

I must admit though I don't know how well it performs as a midi controller in contrast to playing the internal sounds. Also, it has a graded action (no deal for me but maybe for you). If you have the opportunity, give it a try.

As an alternative, you could try the Kord D1. It has a variant of the Korg RH3, which is their best key action I believe. I had the D1 in my home studio for some months and only sold it for downsizing. The action was great though, but heavier than the ES110.


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## darkogav

hayvel said:


> The Kawai ES110 would fit your budget. It has a really great, rather light and comfortable hammer action. I played one multiple times at my music store and to me it was one of the best at a moderate price (I am also quite picky regarding action). It comes with midi and has a pedal port (and comes with a pretty nice pedal included).
> 
> Not much else though for controller features. It is very compact for a digital piano, but the action adds some height, so better check the data beforehand if it fits in your space.
> 
> I must admit though I don't know how well it performs as a midi controller in contrast to playing the internal sounds. Also, it has a graded action (no deal for me but maybe for you). If you have the opportunity, give it a try.
> 
> As an alternative, you could try the Kord D1. It has a variant of the Korg RH3, which is their best key action I believe. I had the D1 in my home studio for some months and only sold it for downsizing. The action was great though, but heavier than the ES110.


Just looking at this. Is this like a portable digital piano? I have an older Yamaha P90. Its great but it's not really a MIDI controller. It's a product for people that like to play piano but don't own or have the ability to play an upright one in their apartment e.t.c. To me, a controller usually has to have other features than just keys that feel like a real piano.


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## hayvel

darkogav said:


> Just looking at this. Is this like a portable digital piano? I have an older Yamaha P90. Its great but it's not really a MIDI controller. It's a product for people that like to play piano but don't own or have the ability to play an upright one in their apartment e.t.c. To me, a controller usually has to have other features than just keys that feel like a real piano.


Yes, both are very compact portable pianos. And at the same time MIDI controllers. 

I know that to some (you obviously) there are more requirements to a midi controller, but Jorf88 said initially that he just wants a really good light (hammer) action, a midi connection and a pedal port. If you only need basic functions but a great action, a digital piano can be a perfect solution.


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## darkogav

hayvel said:


> Yes, both are very compact portable pianos. And at the same time MIDI controllers.
> 
> I know that to some (you obviously) there are more requirements to a midi controller, but Jorf88 said initially that he just wants a really good light (hammer) action, a midi connection and a pedal port. If you only need basic functions but a great action, a digital piano can be a perfect solution.


I guess it's a personal preference. I usually look for what other integration and time saving features I can get/find between the controller and the VI software I primarily use. I look at it as it's a cost that was built into the price of the controller, so might as well use it to it's full advantage. I guess if you are primarily a VE Pro user, then there are no speciality controllers on the market that integrate with the software and add added functionality are there? It's all general MIDI messages?


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## hayvel

darkogav said:


> I guess it's a personal preference. I usually look for what other integration and time saving features I can get/find between the controller and the VI software I primarily use. I look at it as it's a cost that was built into the price of the controller, so might as well use it to it's full advantage. I guess if you are primarily a VE Pro user, then there are no speciality controllers on the market that integrate with the software and add added functionality are there? It's all general MIDI messages?


All fine, that is your personal situation. In my experience most master keyboards simply fall flat in one thing: Good action. There are exceptions to this (SL88 Grand, VPC1, ...), I just want to make aware that there is other gear that is not labeled 'controller' but might actually be a better controller for the needs.

I don't get the whole VI Pro thing.

But let's not turn this into an argument now, I won't further comment on this.


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## Justin L. Franks

dcoscina said:


> Kurzweil came out with a controller for around $595 that has the same keybed as the PC4. I find the Kurzweil stuff to be pretty nice in terms of compromise- weighted action but not too heavy for non piano playing too.





Jorf88 said:


> I've seen suggestion that the Kurzweil KM88 has the same RPHA (Real Piano Hammer Action) keybed in it that M-Audio uses in the Hammer 88 and Hammer 88 pro. It'd be great if there was a source of truth for that, because I got to try a Hammer 88 once and didn't care for it that much. It was very heavy.
> 
> If the Kurzweil was actually different, I'd love to find somewhere to try it because it's a great price point for not having tons of unnecessary bells & whistles.


The Kurzweil KM88 does not have the same keybed as the PC4.

KM88 and M-Audio Hammer 88: Medeli K6
PC4 and M-Audio Hammer 88 Pro: Medeli K6S


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## jneebz

tebling said:


> Yeah I did buy the KX88 just a couple hours ago. Before buying I read reports like yours about the data range problem, but it was too good to pass up. Original owner, bought in '86, and only used lightly for about 5 years then stored since the early 90s. I believe it because it is in pristine condition and feels amazing under the fingers. All that for $120!
> 
> If it has a data range issue I'll see if remapping helps. If it doesn't work out, at least it was a cheap experiment!


Nice. I do love the keybed and wish I could have made it work. It’s also like 70 pounds…beast! Hope it works great for you!


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## AceAudioHQ

I have an Akai MPK49, it’s pretty solid and way better in all regards than any of my previous midi keyboards. Go try an Akai MPK261 somewhere. All the knobs, faders and buttons feel heavy duty and the keybed is pretty sturdy and semi-weighted.


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## Paul Jelfs

Justin L. Franks said:


> The Kurzweil KM88 does not have the same keybed as the PC4.
> 
> KM88 and M-Audio Hammer 88: Medeli K6
> PC4 and M-Audio Hammer 88 Pro: Medeli K6S


Now I am even more confused ! So the Hammer 88 and Pro have different keybeds too - Is the "s" for non Slip or just a better keybed in general . 

Thanks


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## Jorf88

Justin L. Franks said:


> The Kurzweil KM88 does not have the same keybed as the PC4.
> 
> KM88 and M-Audio Hammer 88: Medeli K6
> PC4 and M-Audio Hammer 88 Pro: Medeli K6S


Thank you so much for posting this.
I know I heard PianoManChuck mention that the PC4 used an action made by Medeli, but I wasn't sure which one and I have no idea where he got that info from (he's a dealer, so he has all sorts of info that's probably not out in public).

I find it interesting that the hammer 88 pro also has the same upgraded keyboard... I'd be _really interested _in a source on that. I had essentially written off the hammer 88 pro because I tried the regular hammer 88 and didn't care for its action. If the H88 pro possibly had an action that I didn't hate, its features and layout look pretty superb.

I'm going on vacation to a bigger city in a couple weeks, and one of my vacation destinations is going to be a couple music shops to see if they have anything new I can try. My SO is going to laugh me out of the room for putting that at the top of my priority list while being on vacation, but I think I'd probably be in good company for that here on these forums. hahaha



hayvel said:


> The Kawai ES110 would fit your budget. It has a really great, rather light and comfortable hammer action. I played one multiple times at my music store and to me it was one of the best at a moderate price (I am also quite picky regarding action). It comes with midi and has a pedal port (and comes with a pretty nice pedal included).
> 
> Not much else though for controller features. It is very compact for a digital piano, but the action adds some height, so better check the data beforehand if it fits in your space.
> 
> I must admit though I don't know how well it performs as a midi controller in contrast to playing the internal sounds. Also, it has a graded action (no deal for me but maybe for you). If you have the opportunity, give it a try.
> 
> As an alternative, you could try the Kord D1. It has a variant of the Korg RH3, which is their best key action I believe. I had the D1 in my home studio for some months and only sold it for downsizing. The action was great though, but heavier than the ES110.


I'm assuming the Kawai action is going to be much more like a real piano's action, given that it's Kawai. The ES110 has been on my list to try out.


----------



## bill5

AceAudioHQ said:


> I have an Akai MPK49, it’s pretty solid and way better in all regards than any of my previous midi keyboards. Go try an Akai MPK261 somewhere. All the knobs, faders and buttons feel heavy duty and the keybed is pretty sturdy and semi-weighted.


No 88-key version. sigh


----------



## AceAudioHQ

bill5 said:


> No 88-key version. sigh


61 keys should be enough for anybody


----------



## bill5

Because.......

For many keyboard players, it's not.


----------



## dcoscina

Hmm, I was sure I read that the PC4 and KM88 had the same keybed but I have only played the PC4 and Hammer 88, not the 88 Pro or KM88.


----------



## Jorf88

dcoscina said:


> Hmm, I was sure I read that the PC4 and KM88 had the same keybed but I have only played the PC4 and Hammer 88, not the 88 Pro or KM88.


I mean, we know there's at least _some _difference between the PC4 and KM88, as well as the H88 Pro and the regular H88... simply because the PC4 and the H88 pro have aftertouch. Neither the KM88 or the regular H88 have aftertouch. Rarely does the inclusion/exclusion of aftertouch come without any other changes in a keybed's tech, even if the changes are minuscule.

If only I could get them in the same room to give them a feel.


----------



## dcoscina

Jorf88 said:


> I mean, we know there's at least _some _difference between the PC4 and KM88, as well as the H88 Pro and the regular H88... simply because the PC4 and the H88 pro have aftertouch. Neither the KM88 or the regular H88 have aftertouch. Rarely does the inclusion/exclusion of aftertouch come without any other changes in a keybed's tech, even if the changes are minuscule.
> 
> If only I could get them in the same room to give them a feel.


Our store stopped carrying Kurzweil which is a damn shame. I shoulda grabbed a PC4 at the staff discount when I had the chance..l


----------



## mjsalam

I recently purchased a Hammer 88. I'm not much of a piano player but I find it to be really great in terms of quality. Feels very good to play. I got the non-pro because I didn't really need any of the pads, aftertouch, etc. The bad though is that I think I will be returning it. Its just too bulky and I can't make it work ergonomically. Its either too low or my desk is too high. As well the top is annoyingly curved so I can't set it up parallel as an extension to the desk...so ya I dunno. Unfortunate as I don't think I can go any higher budget wise and I really like 88 weighted keys.

Has anyone been able to make this keyboard work without putting it off to the side?


----------



## Alex Fraser

mjsalam said:


> I recently purchased a Hammer 88. I'm not much of a piano player but I find it to be really great in terms of quality. Feels very good to play. I got the non-pro because I didn't really need any of the pads, aftertouch, etc. The bad though is that I think I will be returning it. Its just too bulky and I can't make it work ergonomically. Its either too low or my desk is too high. As well the top is annoyingly curved so I can't set it up parallel as an extension to the desk...so ya I dunno. Unfortunate as I don't think I can go any higher budget wise and I really like 88 weighted keys.
> 
> Has anyone been able to make this keyboard work without putting it off to the side?


I think a couple of folks stripped out the keybed from the case and mounted it under the desk. Possibly a more extreme solution..


----------



## Jorf88

dcoscina said:


> Hmm, I was sure I read that the PC4 and KM88 had the same keybed but I have only played the PC4 and Hammer 88, not the 88 Pro or KM88.


So I finally stumbled upon this wonderful thread on another set of forums:
Musicplayer forum thread about Hammer 88 pro

According to a guy there that bought a H88 pro (and then subsequently had to exchange for a second and ultimately return the second one because of stuck notes)... he ended up buying a PC4 afterwards.
He noted that the H88p felt better than the standard H88... but he also said after receiving his PC4 that the PC4 is an entirely different ballgame. Apparently the public speculation that the PC4 and the H88 pro have the same keybed is wrong? That, or it's one of those cases where it may theoretically be the same bed, but the implementation is different enough that there's a world of difference.

One of the things he points out is that the H88pro has very sharp edges on the white keys, and the PC4 has nice rounded edges. It's a small detail, but that also points to an entirely different plastic molding for the keys, which makes me think that they aren't the same keybed at all. This coincides with what you said, about the PC4 being a very nice bed.


mjsalam said:


> I recently purchased a Hammer 88. I'm not much of a piano player but I find it to be really great in terms of quality. Feels very good to play. I got the non-pro because I didn't really need any of the pads, aftertouch, etc. The bad though is that I think I will be returning it. Its just too bulky and I can't make it work ergonomically. Its either too low or my desk is too high. As well the top is annoyingly curved so I can't set it up parallel as an extension to the desk...so ya I dunno. Unfortunate as I don't think I can go any higher budget wise and I really like 88 weighted keys.
> 
> Has anyone been able to make this keyboard work without putting it off to the side?


As much as I can appreciate the difficulty of solving that problem, it's also a very personal problem to solve. What I mean by that is that only you can say what's comfortable for you. Keybeds themselves are very subjective, our hands are all different, but we can come to a general consensus about which beds are obviously superior when it comes to tiering. When you're talking about global ergonomics, you're probably not going to find someone else here with body dimensions identical to yours, with a desk the same height as yours, with the same chair as you, with the same personal preferences for comfort as you.

Some folks have done a thing where they get a thicker solid wood desk, and they actually route out a giant box for their keyboard of choice to sit down inside of... so essentially all of the bulk below the actual keybed is recessed into the desk, and the keybed itself is at the "perfect" height.

There's some studio desks that accomplish a similar thing with a hidden keyboard tray at the very face of the desk.



Alex Fraser said:


> I think a couple of folks stripped out the keybed from the case and mounted it under the desk. Possibly a more extreme solution..


This is the even more extreme option... completely ripping the keybed (or just buying a naked keybed) and building/configuring your desk around that.

I must admit that this sounds like what I will end up doing in the distant future.




To this thread's topic. I'm back to being confused. The first time I tried a Yamaha GHS keybed, I hated it. I went back to GC the other day and they had a shiny new P125 fresh out of its box, with the P45 that I'd tried previously right above it. They also had an MX88 in the room this time.
Tried the P45 first.... yep, still as I remembered it. Gummy, funky bottom-out of the keys. Hated it.
Tried the new p125, and really enjoyed it? Tried the MX88... also really enjoyed it?
Maybe that p45 is just old and abused and I do actually like the Yamaha GHS.

I really wish that the P121 (73 key version of the p125) had standard octave shift buttons. It would be the perfect solution for me if it did. From looking through the manual, it seems that you can shift its entire keybed up/down one octave, and I'm not sure if that's just shifting its internal sounds or if that would shift the MIDI too. I use octave shifting a lot for my own ergonomics when I'm playing VIs other than pianos (where I don't need the full bed).

Does anyone know if there's an easy way to program Octave shift/transpose buttons onto another MIDI controller with assignable buttons? It's a silly feature for me to get that stuck on, I know... but I really do use it a lot. I've tried lots of googling of this, and answers have been really difficult to find, and the few that I have found have pointed at "no", since the octave shifting is actually changing the MIDI data coming out of the keyboard/controller, which needs to be done on-board. 

If that can't be done, maybe an MX88 will be in my future. It's more expensive than I wanted it to be, and its footprint is also way bigger than I want, but I'm tired of my creative process being stifled by gear that doesn't work with me.

The other board I'm seriously curious about (and have no way of trying) is a Casio PX-5S. I've tried the PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 and *hated *their keybeds... but apparently the PX-5S has a different keybed. I want to believe that just because it's the same manufacturer, doesn't mean I'll inherently also hate the bed on the PX-5S, but that's what my gut tells me. I'd appreciate input from anyone who has/has played on this board. Comparisons to the Yamaha GHS (P45/125/MX88 etc.), Roland PHA4 (FP10/30/60/RD88), PHA50 (FP90/RD2000), or Ivory Touch Grand Feel (Roland Juno DS88) would be appreciated, as I'm familiar with those.


----------



## mjsalam

if anyone has I'd love to see pics - I thought about it but then conceded that I would probably just brick the thing and so I've packed it up to go back. Back to my trusty K2000 for the time being I guess


----------



## X-Bassist

If you’re going to be picky (yes, you are) then save your money and get the best you can find for 2k-5k, there should be something in that range that you can enjoy completely, or keep looking and save more.

But stop spending money on dozens of cheaper keyboards if quality and feel are an issue for you. If the keyboard squeaks (M32?) then RUN, don’t walk, away. And please don’t buy anything until you’ve tried it in person and love it. Plenty of stores have floor models, if you have to drive a couple of hours it’s worth it, and most people (in the usa) are within 2 hours of a major music store (or several). Don’t plop down more money without a hands on trial.

Like I said, all because you are picky (yes, you are). Accept it (I have) and spend appropriately. Then drop the subject. The time saved by not doing all this searching ALONE will be worth the extra money spent.


----------



## Jorf88

X-Bassist said:


> If you’re going to be picky (yes, you are) then save your money and get the best you can find for 2k-5k, there should be something in that range that you can enjoy completely, or keep looking and save more.
> 
> But stop spending money on dozens of cheaper keyboards if quality and feel are an issue for you. If the keyboard squeaks (M32?) then RUN, don’t walk, away. And please don’t buy anything until you’ve tried it in person and love it. Plenty of stores have floor models, if you have to drive a couple of hours it’s worth it, and most people (in the usa) are within 2 hours of a major music store (or several). Don’t plop down more money without a hands on trial.
> 
> Like I said, all because you are picky (yes, you are). Accept it (I have) and spend appropriately. Then drop the subject. The time saved by not doing all this searching ALONE will be worth the extra money spent.


I absolutely know I'm picky. I'm a classically trained performance musician... do people get more picky than that? Put a $50k cello in my hands and I *will *find things to nit-pick about it.
I learned to play piano during college on Kawai mini grands and also a Steinway some of the time... I'm no less than fucking spoiled, and I've only figured out just _how spoiled _I am now that I'm trying to get into this whole thing. That being said, I don't want a "full on" grand piano action. I want something with a lighter touch than what I'd want for full-time piano playing. 

I think you're right, which is why I'm starting to look at the more expensive models. Where I'm at... yeah I'm within 2 hours of being able to try basically anything, but those 2 hours would put me in either Boston or NYC. Yeah, I can (probably) try anything in those places, but planning a trip to either of those places is also far more involved than "hey, lets drive to the city today!". 

The M32 was sort of my intro-to-everything purchase during BF when I first bought Komplete. I essentially paid $20 for the M32, and the rest of that purchase price was towards buying K12. I've come around on the fact that the M32 is actually a great controller for what it is. I could probably open it up and put some sort of silicon-based lube on the key actions to smooth them out. For travel, it'd be hard to beat it. For full time? Yeah I want something better.

Either way, I appreciate the kick in the right direction, even if it is fueling my desire to spend more money. (We're terrible influences for each other on this forum...)


----------



## dcoscina

Jorf88 said:


> I absolutely know I'm picky. I'm a classically trained performance musician... do people get more picky than that? Put a $50k cello in my hands and I *will *find things to nit-pick about it.
> I learned to play piano during college on Kawai mini grands and also a Steinway some of the time... I'm no less than fucking spoiled, and I've only figured out just _how spoiled _I am now that I'm trying to get into this whole thing. That being said, I don't want a "full on" grand piano action. I want something with a lighter touch than what I'd want for full-time piano playing.
> 
> I think you're right, which is why I'm starting to look at the more expensive models. Where I'm at... yeah I'm within 2 hours of being able to try basically anything, but those 2 hours would put me in either Boston or NYC. Yeah, I can (probably) try anything in those places, but planning a trip to either of those places is also far more involved than "hey, lets drive to the city today!".
> 
> The M32 was sort of my intro-to-everything purchase during BF when I first bought Komplete. I essentially paid $20 for the M32, and the rest of that purchase price was towards buying K12. I've come around on the fact that the M32 is actually a great controller for what it is. I could probably open it up and put some sort of silicon-based lube on the key actions to smooth them out. For travel, it'd be hard to beat it. For full time? Yeah I want something better.
> 
> Either way, I appreciate the kick in the right direction, even if it is fueling my desire to spend more money. (We're terrible influences for each other on this forum...)


Have you tried the Yamaha CP88? I’ve used it as a controller and it’s quite nice. Not too heavy and not too light. Quiet keyboard and very solid feel. Plus it has terrific built in sounds. Not cheap but a great board.


----------



## bill5

X-Bassist said:


> Plenty of stores have floor models, if you have to drive a couple of hours it’s worth it, and most people (in the usa) are within 2 hours of a major music store (or several).


Not stores that have more than a smattering of keyboards to try, and most of those are workstations and lower-end digital pianos. At least not what I have seen. We really need some large keyboard-oriented chain store that's mostly if not entirely keyboards.


----------



## Ivan M.

Jorf88 said:


> The issue is that it's on a big Z stand in a different room than my rig, and it absolutely won't fit on my desk, and I can't put it next to it either.


Maybe you can put it in front of the desk. I replaced mine with one that is less deep, around 40 cm, put the a-88 controller in front of it and it doesn't take much space. Also, made a wooden cover for the controller, so it functions as a full sized desk most of the time.


----------



## Alex Fraser

I think a more realistic (and less soul destroying) way of looking at it is to use the best controller for the job in hand.

As an example, one really doesn’t need an expensive hammer ivory graded keybed to tap in hats or write basic orchestra lines, especially if you’re riding dynamics with the left hand. For this, any number of cheap desktop key controllers will do, with better ergonomics to boot. The M32 is a great choice here.

I’m also a classically trained pianist and much prefer a hammer action for playing. But I’ve found that the vast majority of my production time, I simply don’t need that level of expression. I mean, I’ve just come back from the beach and managed to get my working holiday done on a Nektar 25 key thing.

I totally accept that none of this cheap stuff makes for a pleasant playing experience…but how much of the time do we actually need it to be?


----------



## bill5

Jorf88 said:


> *My wishlist*:
> * I like light actions. Either a hammer weighted one that's exceptionally well balanced, or just light... or a synth action that manages to feel solid and not like cheap hollow plastic keys.


----------



## Quasar

Jorf88 said:


> *Nektar:*
> Panorama T6 - See my rant at the top, I hate these keys. All of the rest of it is great.


I moaned about this before, but I too made a terrible mistake buying the T6. The deal-breaker for me is that the keys are LOUD upon release, clanging onto the hard surface without any noise reduction padding or whatever. They are so loud that even with headphones the banging overwhelms the sound of the music being played at any reasonable volume...

...I sort of mitigated the problem by getting some thin foam and sticking it onto the other end of each key mechanism to blunt the sound. This has made them quiet, but now the keybed is too shallow and unpleasant to try and play expressively.

I have gotten used to having two keyboard controllers on a double stand, an 88 key and a 61 key. I am completely happy with the 88 keyboard I have, a Yamaha stage piano (CP33). It's great for piano and for any other VI that is struck percussively.

But I also want a usable light action 61 for virtual instruments that are bowed, strummed or plucked. I have a used Novation Impulse 61 that worked fine for several years until the electronics died in it. It's a really decent synth-action board with sensitive aftertouch. Perhaps it is fixable by an electronics appliance technician? At any rate, they're $400 new, and I may end up saving my pennies and getting a new one, as I was quite happy with it.

One problem is, as mentioned earlier, that there aren't B&M stores for most of us where these various controllers can be tried before buying. In retrospect, it was a mistake to get a controller that emphasizes DAW integration programming, which I don't use anyway. For me, the DAW transport tools consist of a mouse and a computer keyboard, period. But the quality of the piano keybed is everything.


----------



## Jorf88

dcoscina said:


> Have you tried the Yamaha CP88? I’ve used it as a controller and it’s quite nice. Not too heavy and not too light. Quiet keyboard and very solid feel. Plus it has terrific built in sounds. Not cheap but a great board.


I have not tried the CP88. Nowhere near me carries it. That's another Yamaha action that I haven't tried.


Alex Fraser said:


> I think a more realistic (and less soul destroying) way of looking at it is to use the best controller for the job in hand.
> 
> As an example, one really doesn’t need an expensive hammer ivory graded keybed to tap in hats or write basic orchestra lines, especially if you’re riding dynamics with the left hand. For this, any number of cheap desktop key controllers will do, with better ergonomics to boot. The M32 is a great choice here.
> 
> I’m also a classically trained pianist and much prefer a hammer action for playing. But I’ve found that the vast majority of my production time, I simply don’t need that level of expression. I mean, I’ve just come back from the beach and managed to get my working holiday done on a Nektar 25 key thing.
> 
> Totally accept that none of this cheap stuff makes for a pleasant playing experience…but how much of the time do we actually need it to be?


See, most of what I'm doing here is writing orchestral lines, and the action on my Nektar T6 is bad enough it'll take me 10 recordings to get something even remotely close to what I intend, because the velocity sensitivity is so far from what my hands want it to be. I recently got myself the Aaron Venture series, and thus my need for a keyboard where I can properly express myself has dramatically increased. I love those libraries more than almost any other VIs that I own, and I demand a keyboard that lets me play them the way that I know I can.

Again, maybe there are synth actions that I wouldn't hate... but so far I think my preference is for a suuuuuuuper light "hammer action". Like unrealistically light, to where it wouldn't be the most ideal for piano playing. But that key feeling is what I've always known, and that's what my fingers want. I sit down with various synth actions in GC and I can't get the velocities out that I want when I'm trying to play them. It's entirely possible that I need to feel what a "high end" synth action feels like... but: 


bill5 said:


> Not stores that have more than a smattering of keyboards to try, and most of those are workstations and lower-end digital pianos. At least not what I have seen. We really need some large keyboard-oriented chain store that's mostly if not entirely keyboards.


I absolutely agree with this. The stores around me carry a smattering of digital pianos (not even the nice ones). Some very entry synths, and some of the $1k entry level stage-piano and stage-synths.

The last time I went to my GC, their room had the following (you guys are really taxing my memory here):
Some Alesis model with its own cabinet. I didn't care for it much.
Korg B2: Okay, action a bit too heavy.

Casio CDP-130: Didn't like
Casio CDP-S100: Didn't like
Casio CDP-S350: Didn't like
Casio PS-X1000: Didn't like

Williams Allegro III
Williams Overture 2: I really like this keybed. The form factor doesn't work for me at all, 

Native Instruments KK S49 *mk 1*: not plugged up to anything... old version with touch pad mod/pitch. Not a fan.
NI KK A25: (In their producer room), not a big fan.

Roland FP30: Decent. Lacking workstation functionality (pitch bend/mod/transpose buttons)
Roland RD88: Decent. I think I prefer the keybed on the DS88, and at this price point I prefer the Yamaha MX88.
Roland Juno DS88: I like this one reasonably well, too. I think I prefer the Yamaha MX88, though.

Yamaha PSR-EW310: Ew.
Yamaha PSR-E373: Ew.
Yamaha P45: Their P45 feels god awful, for whatever reason (I think it's been a floor model for a bit too long, the keys are even yellowed), but...
Yamaha P125: They just got these in, and the one I tried was almost fresh out of the box. I like the GHS here. Again, lacking the pitch/mod/transpose functionality.
Yamaha MX88: I like this one too. This is currently one of my top candidates. GHS just like the P125. Has the functionality I want, it's just bigger than I want (and more expensive).

So, congruent with what bill5 said, pretty entry level stuff for the most part. There's a SamAsh like 30-40 minutes from me that will sometimes have higher end boards in... but it's only used models. They actually don't have a dedicated show room for new products. All of their floor models are used gear that is for sale, so I never know what's going to be there. One time they had an RD2000, a novation SLmk3, an Arturia Keylab 49, and an M-Audio hammer 88.... the next time, every single one of those was gone and they had next to nothing.

They're always grumpy when I call and ask what they have in, and I don't often feel like driving an hour round-trip for a chance that they might have something I can try.

Again I ask... Does anyone know if transpose/octave shift functionality can be coded up on a different midi controller to apply to a digital piano? Lacking that functionality is the biggest mark against using a digital piano for me.


----------



## Jorf88

Quasar said:


> I moaned about this before, but I too made a terrible mistake buying the T6. The deal-breaker for me is that the keys are LOUD upon release, clanging onto the hard surface without any noise reduction padding or whatever. They are so loud that even with headphones the banging overwhelms the sound of the music being played at any reasonable volume...
> 
> ...I sort of mitigated the problem by getting some thin foam and sticking it onto the other end of each key mechanism to blunt the sound. This has made them quiet, but now the keybed is too shallow and unpleasant to try and play expressively.
> 
> I have gotten used to having two keyboard controllers on a double stand, an 88 key and a 61 key. I am completely happy with the 88 keyboard I have, a Yamaha stage piano (CP33). It's great for piano and for any other VI that is struck percussively.
> 
> But I also want a usable light action 61 for virtual instruments that are bowed, strummed or plucked. I have a used Novation Impulse 61 that worked fine for several years until the electronics died in it. It's a really decent synth-action board with sensitive aftertouch. Perhaps it is fixable by an electronics appliance technician? At any rate, they're $400 new, and I may end up saving my pennies and getting a new one, as I was quite happy with it.
> 
> One problem is, as mentioned earlier, that there aren't B&M stores for most of us where these various controllers can be tried before buying. In retrospect, it was a mistake to get a controller that emphasizes DAW integration programming, which I don't use anyway. For me, the DAW transport tools consist of a mouse and a computer keyboard, period. But the quality of the piano keybed is everything.


The loud key releases are certainly annoying, but the killer for me is everything about the action of the white keys. The black keys are workable. The depth of key depression on the white keys, with the squishiness of the bottom of that craterous depth... ugh. The springs are too hard. The first sensor is WAY too high. There are literally zero redeeming qualities about the white keys on the T6. Absolutely zero. Okay, I found one... they're full size piano keys. That's it, that's the only redeeming quality. I could rant for days.

I was teetering between the impulse 61 and the T6... I chose wrong. Maybe I would have liked the impulse. Realistically, I know that I want something with a hammer action bed.
I want a good keybed, but I use the octave transpose buttons a LOT. It would be nice to have pitch/mod, but those can be replaced with a different controller. I find having pads as useful because I can map keyswitches to them... but again, not necessary. I can get them on a separate controller.

I'm stuck on the stupid octave shift/transpose/whatever you want to call them buttons.
I feel like a flailing idiot for ranting about them so much, but I do use them a lot. I try to keep the instrument that I'm playing ergonomically centered in front of me when I'm spending a lot of time writing a line for it. The place I have to put the keyboard on my desk is already ergonomically compromised, so I don't want the lack of this kind of control to exacerbate that problem even more.

The Yamaha P-121 is able to shift its keys up/down by one octave... and maybe that would be enough for me. But I don't know if it's only shifting the note pitch of its internal instruments, or if it would appropriately shift the midi output for playing VIs. I haven't been able to get a clean answer about that.


----------



## dcoscina

@Jorf88 its been a while since I’ve worked at the store (covid) but I recall the CP88 was able to transpose because it can function with splits and layers. 

my guess is that for heavy performance centres input, an expensive digital piano is always going to be better than a controller. I’ve still not found one better than my Kurzweil PC3x- the PC4 was a good second but not quite at the same level. 

the Nord Grand is lovely to play but shockingly their velocity does not work well for controlling orchestral instruments in my experience (and yeah I brought my laptop to the store and tried out all my libraries with various controllers and models when it was quiet). Whereas I found the CP way better than most. I also tried the Roland Fantom 8 but the action is waaaaay too heavy. Moog One was pretty nice.
Korg GS-188: meh
Nord Stage: better than piano but really heavy action 
Korg Kronos 73, 88: meh. 
Yamaha MODX88: not bad 
Dexibell Vivo S9: actually pretty damn nice but super expensive (I would probably get this if I had the cash).


----------



## Quasar

Jorf88 said:


> The loud key releases are certainly annoying, but the killer for me is everything about the action of the white keys. The black keys are workable. The depth of key depression on the white keys, with the squishiness of the bottom of that craterous depth... ugh. The springs are too hard. The first sensor is WAY too high. There are literally zero redeeming qualities about the white keys on the T6. Absolutely zero. Okay, I found one... they're full size piano keys. That's it, that's the only redeeming quality. I could rant for days.
> 
> I was teetering between the impulse 61 and the T6... I chose wrong. Maybe I would have liked the impulse. Realistically, I know that I want something with a hammer action bed.
> I want a good keybed, but I use the octave transpose buttons a LOT. It would be nice to have pitch/mod, but those can be replaced with a different controller. I find having pads as useful because I can map keyswitches to them... but again, not necessary. I can get them on a separate controller.
> 
> I'm stuck on the stupid octave shift/transpose/whatever you want to call them buttons.
> I feel like a flailing idiot for ranting about them so much, but I do use them a lot. I try to keep the instrument that I'm playing ergonomically centered in front of me when I'm spending a lot of time writing a line for it. The place I have to put the keyboard on my desk is already ergonomically compromised, so I don't want the lack of this kind of control to exacerbate that problem even more.
> 
> The Yamaha P-121 is able to shift its keys up/down by one octave... and maybe that would be enough for me. But I don't know if it's only shifting the note pitch of its internal instruments, or if it would appropriately shift the midi output for playing VIs. I haven't been able to get a clean answer about that.


Yeah, the T6 banging was only on the white keys for me as well.

Though I really like the Impulse, you may not. From reading your posts I think you may want more of a hammer action than the Impulse has. Since I already use an 88 key digital piano for this, I like a light, "springy" non-percussive response for my 61. Something that "glides" more than strikes, yet still has resistance and isn't a cheap, weightless thing.

You said you disliked the Yamaha P45. This has a GHS action I think, which I'm not a fan of. The P120, P140 etc. boards use GH (also called GHE) whch is better, and my personal cutoff point for good enough. MY CP33 has GHE. If I had lots of money I'd likely look into triple sensors (GH3) or the natural wood architectures. You may want to explore that... But I don't have $$$$ and I'm happy with the 88 key piano I have.

Just pointing out that as much as I like the Impulse 61, if I needed it as my primary controller for playing piano, I wouldn't like it much for that.


----------



## Jorf88

dcoscina said:


> @Jorf88 its been a while since I’ve worked at the store (covid) but I recall the CP88 was able to transpose because it can function with splits and layers.
> 
> my guess is that for heavy performance centres input, an expensive digital piano is always going to be better than a controller. I’ve still not found one better than my Kurzweil PC3x- the PC4 was a good second but not quite at the same level.
> 
> the Nord Grand is lovely to play but shockingly their velocity does not work well for controlling orchestral instruments in my experience (and yeah I brought my laptop to the store and tried out all my libraries with various controllers and models when it was quiet). Whereas I found the CP way better than most. I also tried the Roland Fantom 8 but the action is waaaaay too heavy. Moog One was pretty nice.
> Korg GS-188: meh
> Nord Stage: better than piano but really heavy action
> Korg Kronos 73, 88: meh.
> Yamaha MODX88: not bad
> Dexibell Vivo S9: actually pretty damn nice but super expensive (I would probably get this if I had the cash).


I've heard some huge praise for the Dexibell Vivo S9. Some drama around the Fatar keybed, but it's one that's custom tailor made specifically for the S9 and no one else has it. Apparently it feels amazing. But, yeah, $$$$.

Apparently the (suspected) reason that the Yamaha MX88 is so physically chunky, is that they use the same case mold from the [EDIT] MOXF88 (I had MODX, but I was wrong, it's the MOXF). Different components, obviously, but apparently the shape is nearly identical. I've never seen a MOXF in person, so I couldn't say. All of the MODX88, MOXF88, and the MX88 use the GHS keybed. So, I'd probably opt for the MX88 since the rest of the internal capabilities don't matter to me quite as much. Haven't been able to try any Nords at all, and the only Korg I've been able to try is the B2 I mentioned... which is a far cry from the rest of those.



Quasar said:


> Yeah, the T6 banging was only on the white keys for me as well.
> 
> Though I really like the Impulse, you may not. From reading your posts I think you may want more of a hammer action than the Impulse has. Since I already use an 88 key digital piano for this, I like a light, "springy" non-percussive response for my 61. Something that "glides" more than strikes, yet still has resistance and isn't a cheap, weightless thing.
> 
> You said you disliked the Yamaha P45. This has a GHS action I think, which I'm not a fan of. The P120, P140 etc. boards use GH (also called GHE) whch is better, and my personal cutoff point for good enough. MY CP33 has GHE. If I had lots of money I'd likely look into triple sensors (GH3) or the natural wood architectures. You may want to explore that... But I don't have $$$$ and I'm happy with the 88 key piano I have.
> 
> Just pointing out that as much as I like the Impulse 61, if I needed it as my primary controller for playing piano, I wouldn't like it much for that.


I think the P45 I don't like is just old and beat up... because the MX88 and P125 in the same room feel great to me. All of those use the same GHS.

As far as digital pianos go.. I do still have access to an FP90, I'd just have to re-rig my desk to be able to handle it, and deal with the other various consequences of it no longer being in my living room.

With the FP90 I get no octave transposition capability, and no pitch/mod. The latter part I can fix by getting some sort of small controller with sliders (nanokontrol or mixface). I've yet to hear of any solutions for the transposition part, though. I'd love for some MIDI wizard to come along and tell me that programming octave switching onto another controller is a possibility, but I've been unable to find anything to confirm/deny whether that's possible.

Edited to clear up the Yamaha section.. I suggested that the MX88 and MODX used the same case, that's wrong. It's the MX88 and the MOXF88 that have the same case. Also, Yamaha has too many different product lines with similar names.


----------



## Pier

Sorry if this has been already suggested, as I haven't read the whole thread...

OP have you tried the Novation Impulse series? Apparently they have decent keys for a mid range price.






Impulse | Novation







novationmusic.com


----------



## Jorf88

Pier said:


> Sorry if this has been already suggested, as I haven't read the whole thread...
> 
> OP have you tried the Novation Impulse series? Apparently they have decent keys for a mid range price.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Impulse | Novation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> novationmusic.com


It's been mentioned once or twice... I have not tried the Impulse. Nowhere near me carries them in store (like not even just no floor model, they don't carry the product at all in the store). :(

I'm still kicking myself because I was between the Panorama T6 and the Impulse, and it sounds like I should have gone with the impulse. 

I mentioned elsewhere that I'm going on a vacation soon, and I'm hoping there will be a couple of music shops in that vicinity that I could possibly check out. Maybe I'll get lucky.


----------



## Pier

Jorf88 said:


> It's been mentioned once or twice... I have not tried the Impulse. Nowhere near me carries them in store (like not even just no floor model, they don't carry the product at all in the store). :(
> 
> I'm still kicking myself because I was between the Panorama T6 and the Impulse, and it sounds like I should have gone with the impulse.
> 
> I mentioned elsewhere that I'm going on a vacation soon, and I'm hoping there will be a couple of music shops in that vicinity that I could possibly check out. Maybe I'll get lucky.


The DAW integration is probably better on the T6 as Nektar puts a lot of effort into that, but yeah... Nektar is not popular for having good keys.

I have a Nektar GX49 which has really crappy keys... but hey! It fits nicely on the tray below the desk since it's only like 8cm tall.

I also have a P155 Yamaha digital piano which is so much better in terms of keys, but it's too tall to fit.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

AceAudioHQ said:


> 61 keys should be enough for anybody


I sure like having an 88.


----------



## Jorf88

Well... some updates. Buckle up.

First... back to the Panorama T6. It pissed me off enough that I opened it up. Surely, there must be some way for me to adjust this action, right? Nope.
The sensors are in the very middle of the keys. The spring isn't "pulled" so much as it's "bent". It's not looped onto anything, instead there's a conical hole in the back of the key, a cylindrical path downwards, and another reverse conical space underneath the back of key. The spring is bulbous on the bottom, and flares out at the top... so you have to hook the bulbous part into the cone at the bottom, stretch it up and over the top of the key (where the cylindrical opening with the cone at the top is), and then set it in there. When the key is depressed, it basically bends the spring sideways, it doesn't have enough travel to really "pull" it. This is why the damn keys are so stiff. Due to this, I don't see any realistic way of adjusting it. These are custom springs with custom shapes. You certainly couln't replace them... and the movement of the key causes such a small amount of spring movement that if you tried to stretch it at all, you'd just destroy the action and it probably wouldn't even work.

Additionally... the loud clacky noise of the white keys is *not the keys tapping against the black plastic body*. It makes the same damn noise with the top of the keyboard taken off, with nothing contacting the keys at all from the top.

I have video footage and pictures of all of this. I can be convinced to going through the toil of uploading them if people really want to see.

Positive note:
I acquired a Korg nanoKONTROL2 because I've wanted a different set of faders. I absolutely _love _this little controller. I personally think the 30mm faders are plenty long enough. I understand how some people might want more than that... but it's just fine for me.

I spent a day with my Roland FP90 in front of my desk, and I adore it for piano playing... but it just doesn't do it for VIs. I had weird MIDI lag, but even when I got that mostly resolved, the Roland PHA50 action is just too heavy for string/wind runs. Notice I said in front of, and not on... Try as I may, it will not fit. I need a different desk if it's going to go on it. The FP90 is like 15" deep, it's just too much.

So, new constraint, I'd like my keyboard to be ~13" or less deep.

Finding a new keyboard:
I've since been to three different guitar centers, and my own has refreshed some stock.

I got to try a used Studiologic SL73 studio. This keyboard had once been at the top of my list... and I hate it. It's spongy, and takes way too much force to play.

I got to play more Yamaha P45, P125, MODX8, MX88... I like the GHS. It's light enough that it'll do well. Unfortunately, the stage pianos are thick bois, and they're all really deep.
Tried a couple of Yamaha synths in the $300-500 range. All have very plastic-y and hollow feeling keys.

Casio: Despite my hatred for the smart scaled hammer action for playing piano, I tried some electric pianos and stuff on it, and I hate it far less. I think it'd actually work alright for VIs. Has anyone tried a scaled hammer action II (in some of the Privias like the PX-5S) next to a smart scaled hammer action (PXs1000/3000, CDPS100)? Can you enlighten me on the differences, if there are any discernable ones?

Roland: I do like the Juno DS88, the Ivory Feel G keybed is miraculously "faster" feeling than the PHA4 or PHA50. Again, the DS88 thick boi. Probably too deep for my desk, and I really don't want to pay for all of the in-built sounds on something that's destined to just be a MIDI controller.

Tried the Juno DS61 as well... absolutely despise the synth action.

Tried a Native Instruments KK 61 Mk2. It's _okay_, but the synth action is still very hollow feeling to me. you can feel that the keys aren't full waterfall, they flex to my fingertips.


Alesis VI-61
I started reading more about actions people had treasured in the past, and older Fatar keybeds kept coming up. I don't care for the TP100/LR and I don't like whatever one is in the KK S61 mk1 or mk2... which I think is like a TP8/S or something? Anyway, a brand I saw come up a lot was Alesis. I don't know anything about Alesis, but they apparently have a decent recent history with synths.
Anywhere I look at their higher-end MIDI keyboards (the VI-series, not the V-series), they seem to have decent product reviews on their purchase pages. I was unable to find any super in-depth reviews about them on YT, especially any comparing them to other brands.

Well, I decided to order one from Amazon since they at least have a return policy that I can abuse if I didn't like it. I got it in the mail today... The plastic body of the VI61 flexes a little. The very tops of the white keys are not all perfectly even... some stick up like ~0.1mm. I don't care for the pads to be all the way on the left side, because it makes the keyboard needlessly wide.
Okay, negative complaints over. The Alesis VI-61 has the best feeling synth/semi-action keybed I've ever felt. I still haven't gotten my hands on a Nord, but I imagine that this must be what they feel like. This is the first "semi-weighted" keyboard that is true to those words. I'm now very conflicted, because I generally really like the keyboard. The last complaint that I didn't mention is that I don't really love any of the velocity curves that are able to be chosen (and you have to change them in software, not on the instrument itself, boo).

The pads are nice, and the knobs are very very nice. They're not endless, but they have great resistance to them.

I wish Alesis sold just this keybed with a modwheel and pitch bend wheel (theirs are really nice) without all of the other knobs and pads. I don't need the rest of the stuff, and I'd appreciate just the keybed (especially with better velocity profiles).

Lastly, why I'm on the fence.... Superbooth 2021 is on right now, and Studiologic just revealed their new NumaX pianos. They have new Fatar actions (the TP400, successor of the TP40, and the TP110, successor of the TP100). Apparently the new NumaX will come in a 73 key version... and especially if they make one with a 73 key version of the TP400, I don't care if it's $1500, I'm in.

I'll spend this weekend playing with the VI61 and try to make some decisions. I'm surprised that I like its action as much as I do. I've never felt anything else like it.


Edit: decided to add a little more about my complaint with the VI61 velocity curves.


Spoiler: Velocity curves for VI61











Velocity curve #4 is the only one I like at all. The keys are so easy to play that what I would normally deem a mF amount of force will get me a velocity of 60-70. The issue is that the top of that very beginning part to the curve is about ~30. Realistically, you can't get anything from 2-30. You can very slowly press the key down with a feather touch to get a 1 velocity, but anything 2-30 is essentially impossible.

You'll aske me why I don't try 5 or 6, because they have lower beginnings to their curves. Well, those graphs aren't accurate, because 5 and 6 give me consistently higher velocities than 4 does. I even tested this with a stack of nickels as pseudo gram-weights. I would love it if 6 played the way it was drawn. I would probably love that curve if it did. But, yeah, #4 is quieter than #5 and #6, despite how they're drawn.

My gripe is essentially that I paid for 127 levels of MIDI velocity, and I can't get them all with any of the curves. They suggest people set the curves to 1 or 2, but I consistently get velocity of >90 with what I could consider relatively delicate playing.
Maybe I just have too much training on real pianos, I dunno.


----------



## Karmand

Good reading, wondering if the new 
Nektar Impact GXP61 61 is any good?​


----------



## Pier

Karmand said:


> Good reading, wondering if the new
> Nektar Impact GXP61 61 is any good?​


First time I hear about those.






Impact GXP49, GXP61, GXP88 ▷ MIDI Controller Keyboards | Performance


MIDI Controller keyboards with 49, 61 or 88 semi-weighted keys, aftertouch, instant access to performance controls and Nektar DAW Integration.




nektartech.com





It says:



> At the core of Impact GXP is a newly designed and carefully balanced keyboard action. Its 49, 61 or 88 semi-weighted full-size keys with velocity and aftertouch deliver a nice, firm touch and great playability.



Would be great if anyone could try it and report back 

I love that they have expression pedal input which is something most keyboard lack these days.


----------



## Jorf88

Karmand said:


> Good reading, wondering if the new
> Nektar Impact GXP61 61 is any good?​





Pier said:


> First time I hear about those.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Impact GXP49, GXP61, GXP88 ▷ MIDI Controller Keyboards | Performance
> 
> 
> MIDI Controller keyboards with 49, 61 or 88 semi-weighted keys, aftertouch, instant access to performance controls and Nektar DAW Integration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nektartech.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It says:
> 
> 
> 
> Would be great if anyone could try it and report back
> 
> I love that they have expression pedal input which is something most keyboard lack these days.


There's a handful of reviews on YouTube about the GXPs.
The apparently "weird" thing about the GXP models is that the keys slope backwards slightly.
I haven't found anywhere that stocks them in store, let alone has them out to play (/broken record). 

My GC had a boxed-up Keystation 61 that I really wanted to try, but they refused to open the box and let me play with it, even though it was a used model. I was a bit baffled by that.
I've resigned myself to the fact that testing MIDI keyboards means abusing someones' return policy, at least where I live.
Maybe if you're in a metropolis (at least in the US), you'll find a music shop that has stuff out to play, but it seems to be more and more rare.


Some folks on the MusicPlayer forums are already talking about ordering the new Studiologic NumaX pianos. I think they're available somewhere in Europe. I can't wait for them to come to the US. The new NumaX 73 might be a winner for me if the Fatar TP110 is as much of an improvement over the TP100 as they say it is (marketing mumbo jumbo and all, I need to try it to believe).


----------



## jasperjames

Jorf88 said:


> Alright, this is going to be longwinded, buckle up.


Used Yamaha CP5 is good, but you'd have to make room for it. Solid keyboard, lighter action, wooden keys, built like a tank.


----------



## whinecellar

Same dilemma here especially after having surgery on both hands 2 years ago for trigger finger: 4 decades of pounding on weighted actions!

The Yamaha CP300 has been the gold standard for me since those came out, but too heavy for me now sadly. After the same long search, ended up with a Korg D1 just for the keybed, which is pretty stellar: fully weighted and piano-like, yet still light and fast enough for orch programming. Perfect for me, and great price. Super bare bones though - no USB, pitch or mod wheels.

The Yamaha CP88/YC88 are the new champs for me in their category - similar to the Korg D1 but with great sound engines and full modern features if you need those.

I also always loved the feel of the ancient KX88 and am currently borrowing one, and I can confirm the velocity issue (15 is as low as it will register). The other weird thing is that the note-on trigger point is really high in the key travel, so trying to play really soft repetitive notes is pretty much impossible after the first sustained note. Wondering if any KX88 owners can confirm that? This one is Ronnie Milsap’s so it’s been flogged to death on the road. I have a near mint one on the way - we’ll see how that one fares. Great piece if you can find one in great shape - I can’t imagine they would all suffer from that triggering issue. Here’s hoping!

Good luck on your search!


----------



## Jorf88

whinecellar said:


> Same dilemma here especially after having surgery on both hands 2 years ago for trigger finger: 4 decades of pounding on weighted actions!
> 
> The Yamaha CP300 has been the gold standard for me since those came out, but too heavy for me now sadly. After the same long search, ended up with a Korg D1 just for the keybed, which is pretty stellar: fully weighted and piano-like, yet still light and fast enough for orch programming. Perfect for me, and great price. Super bare bones though - no USB, pitch or mod wheels.
> 
> The Yamaha CP88/YC88 are the new champs for me in their category - similar to the Korg D1 but with great sound engines and full modern features if you need those.
> 
> I also always loved the feel of the ancient KX88 and am currently borrowing one, and I can confirm the velocity issue (15 is as low as it will register). The other weird thing is that the note-on trigger point is really high in the key travel, so trying to play really soft repetitive notes is pretty much impossible after the first sustained note. Wondering if any KX88 owners can confirm that? This one is Ronnie Milsap’s so it’s been flogged to death on the road. I have a near mint one on the way - we’ll see how that one fares. Great piece if you can find one in great shape - I can’t imagine they would all suffer from that triggering issue. Here’s hoping!
> 
> Good luck on your search!


This note-repeat issue is one of my main gripes with 90% of the controllers/keyboards I play.
I've not had a chance to play a CP88 or YC88.

This Alesis VI61 is driving me nuts because I love the way the keybed feels so much... and the sensors/velocity curves are letting it down.

So the distance from the full upright white key position until the initial "bottom out" feeling of the keybed is ~12-13 mm. There's another ~3 mm of squish beyond that (that takes _quite a bit _of force to get through which is just the aftertouch.

From the upright position, you have to depress a key 8mm to get it to sound.
Now, after you have it sounding, you have to raise it up to ~2.5 mm from the top of the action to release that note and be able to retrigger another note. So, you essentially have to come all the way back up just to retrigger another note. Trying a properly 3-2-1 fingered triplet? Forget about it.

I suppose the substance of this gripe is that I think I'm one of those picky players who a third sensor matters to, and those types of actions are few and far between. I probably need to just save up my money and drop a couple grand on something "nice" and be done with it.


----------



## Quasar

In part because of this thread, and in part because I was so disappointed with the Nektar T6, I found another used Novation Impulse 61 on eBay, and it works great. As a secondary non-piano keyboard (to compliment my 88-key Yamaha CP33) I really like the key action on this, appreciate that the faders are on the left side, and like the placement of the PB/MW directly to the left of the keys, rather than sunk below them as on the T6.


----------



## Jorf88

Quasar said:


> In part because of this thread, and in part because I was so disappointed with the Nektar T6, I found another used Novation Impulse 61 on eBay, and it works great. As a secondary non-piano keyboard (to compliment my 88-key Yamaha CP33) I really like the key action on this, appreciate that the faders are on the left side, and like the placement of the PB/MW directly to the left of the keys, rather than sunk below them as on the T6.


Great to hear. I still really want to find a Novation Impulse to try out.
Do you have anything else you can compare the keybed to, or would you care to try and describe it?

Do the keys feel relatively solid? Do they have a satisfying "bottom" to their action, with a "thud" rather than a plastic-y "clunk"? How are the velocity profiles? What is note re-triggering like?


----------



## Quasar

Jorf88 said:


> Great to hear. I still really want to find a Novation Impulse to try out.
> Do you have anything else you can compare the keybed to, or would you care to try and describe it?
> 
> Do the keys feel relatively solid? Do they have a satisfying "bottom" to their action, with a "thud" rather than a plastic-y "clunk"? How are the velocity profiles? What is note re-triggering like?


It has a key curve menu: 1, 2, 3 & 4. Hard to easy, and the default is 2, which works fine for me. AFAIK, you can't fine tune beyond those settings.

The keys are NOT good for piano playing. I don't use it for that. But yes, they do thud instead of chunk, and are kind of loose for gliding to emulate strings or whatever. They have a very nice depth and a satisfying springy-ness. The aftertouch is great.

But I hesitate to say you will like or dislike it, because it's so utterly subjective. But it's by far my favorite "non piano" synth action for non percussive instruments I've used. That's about all I can say.


----------



## hayvel

Jorf88 said:


> Well... some updates. Buckle up.
> 
> First... back to the Panorama T6. It pissed me off enough that I opened it up. Surely, there must be some way for me to adjust this action, right? Nope.
> The sensors are in the very middle of the keys. The spring isn't "pulled" so much as it's "bent". It's not looped onto anything, instead there's a conical hole in the back of the key, a cylindrical path downwards, and another reverse conical space underneath the back of key. The spring is bulbous on the bottom, and flares out at the top... so you have to hook the bulbous part into the cone at the bottom, stretch it up and over the top of the key (where the cylindrical opening with the cone at the top is), and then set it in there. When the key is depressed, it basically bends the spring sideways, it doesn't have enough travel to really "pull" it. This is why the damn keys are so stiff. Due to this, I don't see any realistic way of adjusting it. These are custom springs with custom shapes. You certainly couln't replace them... and the movement of the key causes such a small amount of spring movement that if you tried to stretch it at all, you'd just destroy the action and it probably wouldn't even work.
> 
> Additionally... the loud clacky noise of the white keys is *not the keys tapping against the black plastic body*. It makes the same damn noise with the top of the keyboard taken off, with nothing contacting the keys at all from the top.
> 
> I have video footage and pictures of all of this. I can be convinced to going through the toil of uploading them if people really want to see.
> 
> Positive note:
> I acquired a Korg nanoKONTROL2 because I've wanted a different set of faders. I absolutely _love _this little controller. I personally think the 30mm faders are plenty long enough. I understand how some people might want more than that... but it's just fine for me.
> 
> I spent a day with my Roland FP90 in front of my desk, and I adore it for piano playing... but it just doesn't do it for VIs. I had weird MIDI lag, but even when I got that mostly resolved, the Roland PHA50 action is just too heavy for string/wind runs. Notice I said in front of, and not on... Try as I may, it will not fit. I need a different desk if it's going to go on it. The FP90 is like 15" deep, it's just too much.
> 
> So, new constraint, I'd like my keyboard to be ~13" or less deep.
> 
> Finding a new keyboard:
> I've since been to three different guitar centers, and my own has refreshed some stock.
> 
> I got to try a used Studiologic SL73 studio. This keyboard had once been at the top of my list... and I hate it. It's spongy, and takes way too much force to play.
> 
> I got to play more Yamaha P45, P125, MODX8, MX88... I like the GHS. It's light enough that it'll do well. Unfortunately, the stage pianos are thick bois, and they're all really deep.
> Tried a couple of Yamaha synths in the $300-500 range. All have very plastic-y and hollow feeling keys.
> 
> Casio: Despite my hatred for the smart scaled hammer action for playing piano, I tried some electric pianos and stuff on it, and I hate it far less. I think it'd actually work alright for VIs. Has anyone tried a scaled hammer action II (in some of the Privias like the PX-5S) next to a smart scaled hammer action (PXs1000/3000, CDPS100)? Can you enlighten me on the differences, if there are any discernable ones?
> 
> Roland: I do like the Juno DS88, the Ivory Feel G keybed is miraculously "faster" feeling than the PHA4 or PHA50. Again, the DS88 thick boi. Probably too deep for my desk, and I really don't want to pay for all of the in-built sounds on something that's destined to just be a MIDI controller.
> 
> Tried the Juno DS61 as well... absolutely despise the synth action.
> 
> Tried a Native Instruments KK 61 Mk2. It's _okay_, but the synth action is still very hollow feeling to me. you can feel that the keys aren't full waterfall, they flex to my fingertips.
> 
> 
> Alesis VI-61
> I started reading more about actions people had treasured in the past, and older Fatar keybeds kept coming up. I don't care for the TP100/LR and I don't like whatever one is in the KK S61 mk1 or mk2... which I think is like a TP8/S or something? Anyway, a brand I saw come up a lot was Alesis. I don't know anything about Alesis, but they apparently have a decent recent history with synths.
> Anywhere I look at their higher-end MIDI keyboards (the VI-series, not the V-series), they seem to have decent product reviews on their purchase pages. I was unable to find any super in-depth reviews about them on YT, especially any comparing them to other brands.
> 
> Well, I decided to order one from Amazon since they at least have a return policy that I can abuse if I didn't like it. I got it in the mail today... The plastic body of the VI61 flexes a little. The very tops of the white keys are not all perfectly even... some stick up like ~0.1mm. I don't care for the pads to be all the way on the left side, because it makes the keyboard needlessly wide.
> Okay, negative complaints over. The Alesis VI-61 has the best feeling synth/semi-action keybed I've ever felt. I still haven't gotten my hands on a Nord, but I imagine that this must be what they feel like. This is the first "semi-weighted" keyboard that is true to those words. I'm now very conflicted, because I generally really like the keyboard. The last complaint that I didn't mention is that I don't really love any of the velocity curves that are able to be chosen (and you have to change them in software, not on the instrument itself, boo).
> 
> The pads are nice, and the knobs are very very nice. They're not endless, but they have great resistance to them.
> 
> I wish Alesis sold just this keybed with a modwheel and pitch bend wheel (theirs are really nice) without all of the other knobs and pads. I don't need the rest of the stuff, and I'd appreciate just the keybed (especially with better velocity profiles).
> 
> Lastly, why I'm on the fence.... Superbooth 2021 is on right now, and Studiologic just revealed their new NumaX pianos. They have new Fatar actions (the TP400, successor of the TP40, and the TP110, successor of the TP100). Apparently the new NumaX will come in a 73 key version... and especially if they make one with a 73 key version of the TP400, I don't care if it's $1500, I'm in.
> 
> I'll spend this weekend playing with the VI61 and try to make some decisions. I'm surprised that I like its action as much as I do. I've never felt anything else like it.
> 
> 
> Edit: decided to add a little more about my complaint with the VI61 velocity curves.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Velocity curves for VI61
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Velocity curve #4 is the only one I like at all. The keys are so easy to play that what I would normally deem a mF amount of force will get me a velocity of 60-70. The issue is that the top of that very beginning part to the curve is about ~30. Realistically, you can't get anything from 2-30. You can very slowly press the key down with a feather touch to get a 1 velocity, but anything 2-30 is essentially impossible.
> 
> You'll aske me why I don't try 5 or 6, because they have lower beginnings to their curves. Well, those graphs aren't accurate, because 5 and 6 give me consistently higher velocities than 4 does. I even tested this with a stack of nickels as pseudo gram-weights. I would love it if 6 played the way it was drawn. I would probably love that curve if it did. But, yeah, #4 is quieter than #5 and #6, despite how they're drawn.
> 
> My gripe is essentially that I paid for 127 levels of MIDI velocity, and I can't get them all with any of the curves. They suggest people set the curves to 1 or 2, but I consistently get velocity of >90 with what I could consider relatively delicate playing.
> Maybe I just have too much training on real pianos, I dunno.


You forgot to try the Kawai 🙃


----------



## Jorf88

hayvel said:


> You forgot to try the Kawai 🙃


It's not a "forgot to try" so much as nowhere near me stocks them. I have to drive about 75 miles to get to a piano shop that theoretically stocks them. Kawai are a bit prissy when it comes to who is allowed to carry them.

The other issue is that most of the Kawai slabs are too deep. I have at very best about 13.5" of depth to work with... and that would complicate my life. I'd prefer to find something <11.5" deep. Unfortunately the place this keyboard is going is also the desk I work at for my day job, and work comes first.
For depth:
ES520 & ES920 are both 14.75"
The VPC1 is 16.25"  
The MP11SE is 18"

The MP7SE is 13.33"... which would be a realllly tight squeeze. Also, $$$$.
ES110 is 11.25" so that's a possibility.

I've read mixed things about the ES110, but I also hear it primarily talked about on the PianoWorld forums where people seem to be horrendously snobbish about everything to do with pianos.
I've read that the VPC1 is (of course) amazing, but I just can't make something that big fit into the space I'm in.

I've recently revisited my GC to test a Yamaha p125 side by side with a Casio PX-S1000. The Casio has grown on me a little bit, and if I went for the S3000 (or new 3100), I'd at least get to keep a pitch wheel. Casios have +/- 2 octaves built in, too, which is a feature I highly desire.
I wish I could find somewhere to try out a PX-5S (and I also wish Casio would release an update to it, it's old).

If I can get myself to not hate the action, Casio really seems like the way to go in terms of size/features and what I have to work with for budget/space.


Also update: I returned the Alesis VI61 that I had. The velocity differences between the white & black keys were simply too much. Tested with makeshift gram weights. The amount of weight require to produce a ~80 velocity note at the end of a white key would produce a ~120-127 velocity note on the black keys. None of the different velocity curves helped. Shame, because that keybed feels absolutely excellent IMO. Let down by its sensors and/or bad software (I consider velocity curves to be software).


----------



## Alex Fraser

Jorf88 said:


> The velocity differences between the white & black keys were simply too much. Tested with makeshift gram weights..


😂 I salute your attention to detail.
Although (whisper it) I don't think you're going to be 100% happy with anything.


----------



## Jorf88

Alex Fraser said:


> 😂 I salute your attention to detail.
> Although (whisper it) I don't think you're going to be 100% happy with anything.


Testing with weights makes me sound like I'm wanting 100% perfection. 
It's really not that... like if the weight that gave me an 80 velocity on white keys gave me a 90 on black, that'd be fine. It's not perfect, but it's close enough. I can "learn to play" around that. But going from 80 to 120? I couldn't play a scale that sounded normal, and I tried quite a lot. Legato lines I tried playing on AV Infinite brass/winds all sounded absolutely wonky because I couldn't control the dynamics well enough.

I really wanted to love that keyboard, and I absolutely did... until I plugged it in.


----------



## woodslanding

Jorf88 said:


> I'm stuck on the stupid octave shift/transpose/whatever you want to call them buttons.
> I feel like a flailing idiot for ranting about them so much, but I do use them a lot. I try to keep the instrument that I'm playing ergonomically centered in front of me when I'm spending a lot of time writing a line for it. The place I have to put the keyboard on my desk is already ergonomically compromised, so I don't want the lack of this kind of control to exacerbate that problem even more.
> 
> The Yamaha P-121 is able to shift its keys up/down by one octave... and maybe that would be enough for me. But I don't know if it's only shifting the note pitch of its internal instruments, or if it would appropriately shift the midi output for playing VIs. I haven't been able to get a clean answer about that.


I don't know what host you are using, but you should be able to do octave transposing with a MIDI vst on the input chain. I know this is possible in Reaper, but I'd think it would be possible in any host. I have a JSFX for reaper that will do that (as well as range limiting and foldback and sustain pedal faking for vsts that decided not to support it and about 7 other MIDI input processing tools that I find myself needing from time to time) and I could send it to you if you use Reaper. But I know there are VSTs out there for that task.

Then map whatever buttons on something else to it.

I use a KX8 which I pulled out of its insanely gigantic case and mounted it in my custom one. I like it. It's a slightly light piano action, and now that my latency is down to 64 samples, it doesn't feel spongy. Beware that your latency will make your keyboard feel COMPLETELY different!!! 128 felt really mushy, I can't believe it's the same board! 

When I was trying to track down info for the KX8 after I destroyed the first one in a power accident, I found out that there are about 11 different iterations of the GHS series keybeds, and I'm sure each one feels different. The KX8 is one of the cheap ones, but I like it better than my wife's digital piano which is supposed to have a higher-end version....

I would also recommend the AKAI mentioned above. I have one, and it is the most playable synth action I've encountered for getting wide controlled velocity. Not weighted at all though... But if you are transposing octaves why do you need 88 keys anyway?


----------



## jaketanner

tebling said:


> I'm on a similar quest. I want 88 keys in the "fast lightweight hammer action" category or a synth action. I'm thinking about buying both an Arturia Essential 88 and an M-Audio Hammer 88 (non Pro) and hopefully only returning one.


Which did you keep?


----------



## tebling

jaketanner said:


> Which did you keep?


Neither  https://vi-control.net/community/threads/my-yamaha-kx88-desk-integration-project.114060/


----------



## jaketanner

tebling said:


> Neither  https://vi-control.net/community/threads/my-yamaha-kx88-desk-integration-project.114060/


Looks like a lot of work...is the KX keybed that good to want to do all that? Or was it more economical, even though you spent a lot of time modding it out? I'm thinking of just getting a slab keyboard like a Casio CDP150...LOL. It's either that, or something like a Juno DS88 and just put it off the the side and actually use the features..LOL.


----------



## tebling

jaketanner said:


> Looks like a lot of work...is the KX keybed that good to want to do all that? Or was it more economical, even though you spent a lot of time modding it out? I'm thinking of just getting a slab keyboard like a Casio CDP150...LOL. It's either that, or something like a Juno DS88 and just put it off the the side and actually use the features..LOL.


Well, I'm a sucker for these kind of projects, and I have a nostalgia bias toward Yamaha gear from the 80s. So definitely not for everyone, I agree!

The keybed and action suit my preferences almost perfectly. Originally I wanted something more synth action, but now that I've had it set up for a while, I realize that the heavier action is something I've been missing and never knew it.

It wasn't about the economics either, but that's a nice side benefit 

I was seriously considering trying out one of those Casios - if you do, let us know how it goes!


----------



## jaketanner

tebling said:


> Well, I'm a sucker for these kind of projects, and I have a nostalgia bias toward Yamaha gear from the 80s. So definitely not for everyone, I agree!
> 
> The keybed and action suit my preferences almost perfectly. Originally I wanted something more synth action, but now that I've had it set up for a while, I realize that the heavier action is something I've been missing and never knew it.
> 
> It wasn't about the economics either, but that's a nice side benefit
> 
> I was seriously considering trying out one of those Casios - if you do, let us know how it goes!


I’m glad it all worked out for you. I’m the end, a lot of composers have custom builds anyway. As for the CDP, I did try one in a store and the only thing holding me back, is that the rumors about the black keys being lighter than the white keys is absolutely true and noticeable. Feels weird to play. Moreso once you focus on it, it’s all I’m feeling. Lol. But the key noise on the CDP seemed to be less than the PX line for some reason. Still in the hunt though.


----------



## clusterchord

im on old tp40gh keybed in Studiologic VMK176 and 161 pro for years as main 
hammer controller. it has absolute worst software, but keybed is really good 
and has transformed my dynamic expression with the libraries. and it was 
cheap as chips being discontinued when i was buying it a decade ago.


so i've been on the lookout for something with triple sensor, to be able to 
do pianissimo trills, as well as advanced hammer mechanism with deeper
pivot point, and after trying tons of controllers that didnt even measure 
up to my old one, i realized the only true step forward is to be found in 
the world of digital/stage pianos.

finally i narrowed it to the following (in order of preference of keybed):

Kawai MP11se
Nord Grand
Kawai MP7se and Yamaha P515

Nord is too expensive and just a tweaked action from MP7se and didnt care for the
onboard sound. Yamaha is different action from kawai, harder style which also 
has appeal to me, but has no controls whatsoever which puts it out of the race. 
and onboard sound is dark and congested. MP11se is way too big, but action is the 
best i ever felt on a non acoustic piano.

so for now it looks like Kawai MP7se. its the right size to barely fit on my desk. 
has controller sliders in the right places. dont plan on carrying it much, but 
its nice to know its portable, when i write for theatre in other cities.


still need to try the RD2000.. for action and controller functions, but that modelled 
piano sound is definitely not for me..


anyone has experiences with MP7se to share ?

thanks


----------



## jaketanner

clusterchord said:


> im on old tp40gh keybed in Studiologic VMK176 and 161 pro for years as main
> hammer controller. it has absolute worst software, but keybed is really good
> and has transformed my dynamic expression with the libraries. and it was
> cheap as chips being discontinued when i was buying it a decade ago.
> 
> 
> so i've been on the lookout for something with triple sensor, to be able to
> do pianissimo trills, as well as advanced hammer mechanism with deeper
> pivot point, and after trying tons of controllers that didnt even measure
> up to my old one, i realized the only true step forward is to be found in
> the world of digital/stage pianos.
> 
> finally i narrowed it to the following (in order of preference of keybed):
> 
> Kawai MP11se
> Nord Grand
> Kawai MP7se and Yamaha P515
> 
> Nord is too expensive and just a tweaked action from MP7se and didnt care for the
> onboard sound. Yamaha is different action from kawai, harder style which also
> has appeal to me, but has no controls whatsoever which puts it out of the race.
> and onboard sound is dark and congested. MP11se is way too big, but action is the
> best i ever felt on a non acoustic piano.
> 
> so for now it looks like Kawai MP7se. its the right size to barely fit on my desk.
> has controller sliders in the right places. dont plan on carrying it much, but
> its nice to know its portable, when i write for theatre in other cities.
> 
> 
> still need to try the RD2000.. for action and controller functions, but that modelled
> piano sound is definitely not for me..
> 
> 
> anyone has experiences with MP7se to share ?
> 
> thanks


If the on board sounds aren't an issue, the ES920 has the same keybed, and a bit cheaper. Also not as high. I've been considering either the Kawai or the P515...I love a heavy feel, but I also need a quiet keybed. The MP7SE seems very quiet...as does the P515. Only difference from videos I saw, is the return action on the Kawai is a bit noisy. Any thoughts on that? I will be using headphone at night and don't want to disturb anyone else.


----------



## clusterchord

jaketanner said:


> If the on board sounds aren't an issue, the ES920 has the same keybed, and a bit cheaper. Also not as high. I've been considering either the Kawai or the P515...I love a heavy feel, but I also need a quiet keybed. The MP7SE seems very quiet...as does the P515. Only difference from videos I saw, is the return action on the Kawai is a bit noisy. Any thoughts on that? I will be using headphone at night and don't want to disturb anyone else.


if you meant compared to MP7se, yes they use the same RHIII keybed, but at least in Europe, MP is aprox 190 euro cheaper, yet has onboard programmable midi cc sliders, and full complement of pb/mw, whereas 920 has none.

MP11se is the more expensive one and uses superior keybed to both of them.

but it is heavy as a tank, and too tall and too deep. further it does not have adjacent sliders - which i really need as i always drive cc1 dynamics and cc7 general volume simultaneously to govern expression on stuff like Spitfire.

i haven't noticed key return noise on kawai, but will go to the showroom again these days to check again. will also try to find 515 a somewhere to re-visit the comparison and key noise.

to elaborate on previous post: so far my general feel was i could effortlessly play faster passages without mistakes, and full dynamic control, on Kawai (and Nord Stage) than on my Studiologic. but also there is something substantial, reasurring in Yamahas keybed feedback, especially when doing chordal work and left hand arpeggios.


PS the worst quasi-hammer keybed i have touched in recent times is studiologic sl73 and yamaha cp73. if cp73 was as good as 515, i would have grabbed it instantly as i prefer that format.


----------



## jaketanner

clusterchord said:


> if you meant compared to MP7se, yes they use the same RHIII keybed, but at least in Europe, MP is aprox 190 euro cheaper, yet has onboard programmable midi cc sliders, and full complement of pb/mw, whereas 920 has none.
> 
> MP11se is the more expensive one and uses superior keybed to both of them.
> 
> but it is heavy as a tank, and too tall and too deep. further it does not have adjacent sliders - which i really need as i always drive cc1 dynamics and cc7 general volume simultaneously to govern expression on stuff like Spitfire.
> 
> i haven't noticed key return noise on kawai, but will go to the showroom again these days to check again. will also try to find 515 a somewhere to re-visit the comparison and key noise.
> 
> to elaborate on previous post: so far my general feel was i could effortlessly play faster passages without mistakes, and full dynamic control, on Kawai (and Nord Stage) than on my Studiologic. but also there is something substantial, reasurring in Yamahas keybed feedback, especially when doing chordal work and left hand arpeggios.
> 
> 
> PS the worst quasi-hammer keybed i have touched in recent times is studiologic sl73 and yamaha cp73. if cp73 was as good as 515, i would have grabbed it instantly as i prefer that format.


Thanks for the reply. I remember having a CP33 years ago and bought it for the heavy keys...I like the substantial feel. Since I am going to be doing a lot of orchestral work as well, not just piano, the super fast speed isn't something that is all that important. I have a Keylab MKII 49 for ultra fast passages. I also have a Monogrom CC controller that i can place on top, so don't need the sliders built-in. I find them to always be too short anyway for anything detailed. However, the Keylab does have 45mm travel I believe, over the typical 30 in many other units.

My concern with the keybeds are not so much that they are the same, which the are Hammer III...but sometimes I find that the case provides more or less dampening. Such as the case for the FATAR TP/100LR...it is NOT the same implementation, and noise across all keyboards that have it. 

I would be good with either Kawai ES920 or the Yamaha...I tend to lean on the P515 simply for the speakers when/IF ever needed, and I like the samples a bit better...again IF I ever need it. Otherwise both have a triple sensor and good action. 

I would love an update to your finding and comparisons. I can't find a store close to me that carries either...but still hunting. LOL.


----------



## mhelin

Jorf88 said:


> Since owning the T6, Db has become my favorite key to play anything in... I wonder why.
> I wholeheartedly agree that the black keys are much more serviceable, it's the white keys that are abysmal.


I own Panorama T4. At first I though returning the keyboard, but decided to keep it anyway. I then studied the keybed and while the black key are semi-weighted the white are not. I then bought a box of 5g self adhesive car wheel weights and added four of them to the underside of the white keys - 20g per a key. That makes a huge difference in playability.

This is the weight, it's the type Trax 602E with 100x 12x5g strips:





Adhesive Strips | TRAX JH







www.traxjh.com





You don't have to remove the individual keys (though I did so), just remove the keybed (screws) and flip it over. The underside has to be cleaned isopropanyl (IPA) or something before attaching the weights.

It also looks (using MIDIView MIDI monitor) that the black keys still give higher velocity values, don't know the T4 software can be used to calibrate the velocities for indivuald keys, maybe no, should propably ask Nektar. I also found another bug in software.


----------



## mekosmowski

Good luck. We've gone online for price and now the touch and feel opportunities are drying up.


----------



## rnb_2

Yeah, this is what has happened in so many markets in the last 20 years - most product categories end up with lots of cheap options plus a few high-end, with no middle ground. On top of that, no brick and mortar retailer can carry anywhere close to all of the options, so everybody ends up buying from internet retailers and taking advantage of return policies wherever possible.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

bleed from another thread:

i've owned a KX88 and a StudioLogic SL88 Studio.

didn't gel with either.

last year i bought an M-Audio Hammer 88 Pro.

i've returned 2 due to defects.

my 3rd unit (replacement from M-Audio, Nevada) was lost by FEDEX.

this prompted me to search AGAIN for an 88 key controller solution.

i don't like any of the options - i'm hanging tough with the Hammer 88 Pro, even though it may take a few weeks to resolve.

i have a Panorama T6 as a fill in. it is pretty bad, but in a pinch.


----------



## Jorf88

Zoot_Rollo said:


> bleed from another thread:
> 
> i've owned a KX88 and a StudioLogic SL88 Studio.
> 
> didn't gel with either.
> 
> last year i bought an M-Audio Hammer 88 Pro.
> 
> i've returned 2 due to defects.
> 
> my 3rd unit (replacement from M-Audio, Nevada) was lost by FEDEX.
> 
> this prompted me to search AGAIN for an 88 key controller solution.
> 
> i don't like any of the options - i'm hanging tough with the Hammer 88 Pro, even though it may take a few weeks to resolve.
> 
> i have a Panorama T6 as a fill in. it is pretty bad, but in a pinch.


Stories like this are why I haven't given the hammer 88 pro a chance. It makes me sad, because it seems like it'd be a really nice controller otherwise.


As a thread update, I spent a bunch of money to reorganize my desk and get my speakers up so I could fit my Roland FP90.
I still think its action is too heavy for controlling Vests, but the action is Light-years ahead of most cheap controllers.

I've paused my search for the moment.


----------



## alanmcp

I've had the same Yamaha KX88 for around 35 years and it's still a monster (and it was gigged 6 nights a week), only ever broke one key and it's easy to fix. It is now permanently in my home studio and as for playability with piano vsts for Impact Soundworks Pearl (my fav piano plugin along with Noire) it's a joy to play, although much lighter than my Yamaha upright. Years later I bought another KX88 for purely gigging as part of a 3 keyboard rig. A few years back I purchased a Korg Kross 2 because i wanted something with built in sounds and that was lighter - I havn't gigged with it at all because it's so poorly made. Search out a second hand KX88 and you won't be dissapointed I'm sure and they are very cheap, although it is totally down to your own touch preference. It's perfect because it's not too deep and it's not too thick either for stackability with other boards for example. Only thing , it's very heavy but built like a tank.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Jorf88 said:


> Stories like this are why I haven't given the hammer 88 pro a chance. It makes me sad, because it seems like it'd be a really nice controller otherwise.


It is a shame as it has the perfect feel and feature set for my needs.

As I mentioned in another thread, I would hesitate to recommend one without reading threads like this.

And never a used one.

I'm in so deep with this thing at this point, I may as well see it through one last time. If the FedEx thing works out.

I wouldn't know what to get otherwise.

There isn't anything at any price range that gets my attention.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

hayvel said:


> As an alternative, you could try the Kord D1. It has a variant of the Korg RH3, which is their best key action I believe. I had the D1 in my home studio for some months and only sold it for downsizing. The action was great though, but heavier than the ES110.


The D1 looks good - but...

no USB or aftertouch.

but...

priced right and the RH3 keybed could be a winner.

My Babyface Pro has MIDI breakout, so there's a workaround.

the PC4 SE perhaps - Medeli like the 88 Pro. ahhh, alas, no aftertouch.


----------



## liquidlino

I have the p45. In short, it's ok to play but the biggest issue is the midi out implementation. It only puts out velocity range of like 20-100 from memory. So I have set up midi scaling and curves to compensate in Reaper, but it's far from ideal. I'm likely to replace it this year. Seems like there's no highly recommended no brainer purchase keyboards though looking at this thread.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

is it TP/110 or TP/400?







looks like a typo


----------



## jaketanner

Zoot_Rollo said:


> is it TP/110 or TP/400?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> looks like a typo


Those seem good...expensive however, but are the next generation of the TP series. Here is just one review., . there are a couple.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

jaketanner said:


> Those seem good...expensive however, but are the next generation of the TP series. Here is just one review., . there are a couple.



Indeed

I would go with the TP/400 GT model

Even with the joysticks

But, of course, not available yet. That I can find.


----------



## jaketanner

Zoot_Rollo said:


> Indeed
> 
> I would go with the TP/400 GT model
> 
> Even with the joysticks
> 
> But, of course, not available yet. That I can find.


Should be soon...since review are already out. I wish those joysticks can be unscrewed...like just the stick part...that would make it more attractive so it doesn't take up extra height.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

jaketanner said:


> Should be soon...since review are already out. I wish those joysticks can be unscrewed...like just the stick part...that would make it more attractive so it doesn't take up extra height.


Great demo video, by the way. Thanks.

Sounds great.

That was one of my beefs with the SL88 Studio - I kept trying to unscrew the sticks. 

Even thought about cutting the sticks off, thread tapping the stub, and 3D printing a cap.


----------



## jaketanner

Zoot_Rollo said:


> Even thought about cutting the sticks off, thread tapping the stub, and 3D printing a cap.


that would be a good solution...but what gets me about these companies...is that there is clearly a hatred by the majority of people...at least on the threads I've read, about these joysticks...at least make them so they unscrew...give people the option. Everyone wants to re-invent this concept, when the idea of a mod wheel or dedicated sliders are preferred. LOL.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

jaketanner said:


> that would be a good solution...but what gets me about these companies...is that there is clearly a hatred by the majority of people...at least on the threads I've read, about these joysticks...at least make them so they unscrew...give people the option. Everyone wants to re-invent this concept, when the idea of a mod wheel or dedicated sliders are preferred. LOL.


We should draft a letter to the industry from VI-C

Seems we all want the same thing

Give me an

SL-88 Numa GT (fictitious hybrid model)

with Fatar TP/400 keybed (or equivalent with aftertouch), no sounds, sliders, wheels, encoders, no pads, USB, PC/Mac editor...

Basically, a MIDI controller version of any of the $2,500+ monster workstations or stage pianos from you-name-it manufacturers

$1,600 price point max

Funny how the Hammer 88 Pro ticks most of those boxes

Reliability should be another requirement


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

i'd go for this with a TP/400 keybed.

MkIII?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I've had my custom desk with a Doepfer LMK2+ installed directly into it for almost 6 months now and this is the best MIDI controller I've owned (including the Kontrol S88MK2, StudioLogic SL88 Studio, Casio digital piano). There's a reason why it is so popular amongst the professional crowd (at least in LA).


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I've had my custom desk with a Doepfer LMK2+ installed directly into it for almost 6 months now and this is the best MIDI controller I've owned (including the Kontrol S88MK2, StudioLogic SL88 Studio, Casio digital piano). There's a reason why it is so popular amongst the professional crowd (at least in LA).


maybe they will update with the newer Fatar keybeds.


----------



## jaketanner

Zoot_Rollo said:


> i'd go for this with a TP/400 keybed.
> 
> MkIII?


I just don't know what Arturia does to the case that makes the keys so damn loud and clunky, otherwise a great choice. They should take note of how quiet the Roland A88 MKII is...i think that's what I've settled on. Gonna probably get it within a couple of months.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

jaketanner said:


> I just don't know what Arturia does to the case that makes the keys so damn loud and clunky, otherwise a great choice. They should take note of how quiet the Roland A88 MKII is...i think that's what I've settled on. Gonna probably get it within a couple of months.


The A88 MkII?

That's a clean looking unit. I really like it.

I've owned Roland gear since the '80s. Never fails.

No matter what we choose at this point, there's a sacrifice.

If the H88P doesn't show, this one is high on my list.


----------



## jaketanner

Zoot_Rollo said:


> The A88 MkII?
> 
> That's a clean looking unit. I really like it.
> 
> I've owned Roland gear since the '80s. Never fails.
> 
> No matter what we choose at this point, there's a sacrifice.
> 
> If the H88P fails to show, this one is high on my list.


It was a toss up between sound and no sound. But I don’t really need the sounds, and I really like the quiet keys and also that it’s MIDI 2.0 ready. And a small footprint. It does have escapement, but for me it’s not any hindrance. Roland makes pretty good products.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo




----------



## jaketanner

Zoot_Rollo said:


>



That’s normal on an acoustic piano also. Slight bounce. Kawai’s DPs have an exaggerated bounce and noise.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

jaketanner said:


> That’s normal on an acoustic piano also. Slight bounce. Kawai’s DPs have an exaggerated bounce and noise.


i wasn't posting as a criticism, i thought the video was interesting.

the more I dig, the more I am liking the A88 MkII - very lean design.

plus you got me thinking about MIDI 2.0.

ha! update: looks like Fedex miraculously found the H88P - it's on a vehicle for delivery today.


----------



## Dirtgrain

With the A88 MkII, is that a joystick, or just a pitch wheel (no mod wheel functionality?)?


----------



## jaketanner

Zoot_Rollo said:


> i wasn't posting as a criticism, i thought the video was interesting.
> 
> the more I dig, the more I am liking the A88 MkII - very lean design.
> 
> plus you got me thinking about MIDI 2.0.
> 
> ha! update: looks like Fedex miraculously found the H88P - it's on a vehicle for delivery today.


Nice...good luck with this one. Take 3?


----------



## jaketanner

Dirtgrain said:


> With the A88 MkII, is that a joystick, or just a pitch wheel (no mod wheel functionality?)?


It's a combo pitch/mod


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

jaketanner said:


> Nice...good luck with this one. Take 3?


THANKS!

I hear it's a charm!

dang, I was looking forward to dropping some cash on new gear.


----------



## jaketanner

Zoot_Rollo said:


> THANKS!
> 
> I hear it's a charm!
> 
> dang, I was looking forward to dropping some cash on new gear.


To be honest, I had no issues with the original hammer 88 aside from it being a bit noisier than I’d like. Otherwise it was very predictable in terms of velocity triggering. But the A88 adds features and I think over time the keys will hold up better.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

jaketanner said:


> To be honest, I had no issues with the original hammer 88 aside from it being a bit noisier than I’d like. Otherwise it was very predictable in terms of velocity triggering. But the A88 adds features and I think over time the keys will hold up better.


if I was a pro player, I'd invest in a Roland - no question.

but as a bassist/guitarist using this for home studio orchestral work, this should do.

hopefully, I can finally get some long running time with it to see.


----------



## agarner32

darkogav said:


> The best midi keyboard controller I ever saw and tried was the Arturia Keylab Pro mk2


Do the sliders send MIDI information? Some keyboards I've had in the past, the sliders only work locally.


----------



## jaketanner

Zoot_Rollo said:


> if I was a pro player, I'd invest in a Roland - no question.
> 
> but as a bassist/guitarist using this for home studio orchestral work, this should do.
> 
> hopefully, I can finally get some long running time with it to see.


If that’s the case then you didn’t need weighted keys. I would have went for a good semi weighted and saved some money. Weighted is mostly for actual piano work. The Arturia essential 88 would have been good in this case.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

jaketanner said:


> If that’s the case then you didn’t need weighted keys. I would have went for a good semi weighted and saved some money. Weighted is mostly for actual piano work. The Arturia essential 88 would have been good in this case.


i can't stand semi-weighted.

i played classical piano in college for my comp degree. that's the feel I've always looked for in a controller. or close to it. i owned the KX88 for years while i was in school and after.

when i started up again a few years ago, i bought the SL88 Studio - that stopped me in my tracks - the action was NOT my thing. i barely played it.

i lose myself while playing the H88P because of its action. that doesn't happen with less than hammer.

speaking of saving money, I was able to use a MF 15% coupon with this, so it only cost me $679.15.

another reason why i'm hanging in there with the H88P.

to clarify further, piano is a huge part of the reason I wanted a decent feeling controller (not just orch), as shown by this thread:






Piano Instruments and Controllers - Recommendations for Holiday Sales, 2022?


I've been out of the virtual world for a while. I spent the last couple of years dialing in my guitars and basses, not to mention restarting my design/engineering business. Going through all my VIs, I found myself wanting to broaden my piano library. I did some piano VI searches...




vi-control.net


----------



## rnb_2

Dirtgrain said:


> With the A88 MkII, is that a joystick, or just a pitch wheel (no mod wheel functionality?)?


There was a whole thread about this very thing, started almost exactly two years ago:






New Roland A-88mk2 is ALMOST perfect


https://www.roland.com/global/products/a-88mk2/ 88 keys, square shape and flat surfaces, nothing in the center for those (like me) who want to put their computer keyboard there, as compact "as possible" (but still chunky as all weighted keyboards), adjustable response (but probably not...




vi-control.net


----------



## jaketanner

Zoot_Rollo said:


> i can't stand semi-weighted.
> 
> i played classical piano in college for my comp degree. that's the feel I've always looked for in a controller. or close to it. i owned the KX88 for years while i was in school and after.
> 
> when i started up again a few years ago, i bought the SL88 Studio - that stopped me in my tracks - the action was NOT my thing. i barely played it.
> 
> i lose myself while playing the H88P because of its action. that doesn't happen with less than hammer.
> 
> speaking of saving money, I was able to use a MF 15% coupon with this, so it only cost me $679.15.
> 
> another reason why i'm hanging in there with the H88P.
> 
> to clarify further, piano is a huge part of the reason I wanted a decent feeling controller (not just orch), as shown by this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Piano Instruments and Controllers - Recommendations for Holiday Sales, 2022?
> 
> 
> I've been out of the virtual world for a while. I spent the last couple of years dialing in my guitars and basses, not to mention restarting my design/engineering business. Going through all my VIs, I found myself wanting to broaden my piano library. I did some piano VI searches...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


Ah..okay, thought you just played bass and guitar from what you said in the previous post...but classical, yes weighted makes sense. And great price. I purchased the original 88 for $379 when it first came out...now it's $499...LOL Prices have gone up across the board for a lot of these due to part shortages (I heard)


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

it's HERE!

Display looks great - time will tell if it disconnects from Studio One.

Fresh and minty new.

Thank you M-Audio support!


----------



## poly6

Zoot_Rollo said:


> it's HERE!
> 
> Display looks great - time will tell if it disconnects from Studio One.
> 
> Fresh and minty new.
> 
> Thank you M-Audio support!


So it came with guitar picks??? 

Sorry.....

But seriously, I am very interested in the H88Pro so would love to hear how it works out for you


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

poly6 said:


> So it came with guitar picks???
> 
> Sorry.....
> 
> But seriously, I am very interested in the H88Pro so would love to hear how it works out for you


I liked it so much, I bought 3!

Kidding aside, this is indeed my third unit.

The first was exchanged through Musician's Friend.

The second was exchanged through M-Audio support.

I was assured I would get a new, fully tested, A stock replacement.

The second had display issues and would disconnect from Studio One after a few hours idle.

This third unit looks good so far. Crisp display and solid DAW connection.

I hung in with the Hammer 88 Pro because of the action, features, and cost.

The DAW integration is very good.

The sliders and presets are great!!! The Preset Editor is a lifesaver!

The graded hammer action with aftertouch is light-years ahead of my old SL88 Studio.

I think the H88Pro fills a market space other manufacturers could take advantage of.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

A couple of days in with my 3rd Hammer 88 Pro

Marvelous - solid.

The sliders work flawlessly and are a snap to setup - right at 37mm. Not the longest, but they are smooth and tight (!).

I can't find the size of the NanoKontrol sliders, but the H88P sliders look comparable.

I like where they are placed on the top panel too - I work from right to left.

CC11, CC1, CC7, etc...

My previous issues didn't develop over time, they were there from first plug in. My confidence is rising with this one.

If you are considering the H88P, buy with a return policy (MF, GC, SW), put it through its paces, leave it connected and turned on to see if there are any odd behaviors.

If none, you should be good.

Not a 100% ringing endorsement, but I'm probably a worst case too.

I'm glad I sweated it out.


----------



## jaketanner

Zoot_Rollo said:


> I can't find the size of the NanoKontrol sliders, but the H88P sliders look comparable.


they're 30mm...had one and having a 60mm slider is night and day control. 37 is still quite shallow.

Glad overall it's solid...

On a side note, since we spoke of the A88MKII...I reached out to Roland, and they confirmed that not all PHA-4 actions are created equal, and the MKII has the most "advanced" version of this action and the case also makes it a bit above others...closest they said is the fp60x...but I am so looking forward to this one..  Considering now that it's better than the average PHA-4.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

jaketanner said:


> they're 30mm...had one and having a 60mm slider is night and day control. 37 is still quite shallow.
> 
> Glad overall it's solid...
> 
> On a side note, since we spoke of the A88MKII...I reached out to Roland, and they confirmed that not all PHA-4 actions are created equal, and the MKII has the most "advanced" version of this action and the case also makes it a bit above others...closest they said is the fp60x...but I am so looking forward to this one..  Considering now that it's better than the average PHA-4.


that sounds great!

like I said, if the H88P didn't work out, I'd probably go with the A88MkII.

will you get an addon unit for sliders? which model?

37mm is shallow, but integrated into the controller is huge for me and offsets the shorter throw. And it's my cosmic synchronicity number.


----------



## jaketanner

Zoot_Rollo said:


> that sounds great!
> 
> like I said, if the H88P didn't work out, I'd probably go with the A88MkII.
> 
> will you get an addon unit for sliders? which model?
> 
> 37mm is shallow, but integrated into the controller is huge for me and offsets the shorter throw. And it's my cosmic synchronicity number.


I have the Monogram CC modules...they will fit perfectly on the left flat part of the controller.


----------



## muddyblue

An absolute horror at the moment to find a big nice one that simply works...

I have had several exchange keyboards KK88MK2 (noisy keys) after some time, Fatar 100tgh just doesn't work for me and I love the part so much.

Then I asked around and had the Yamaha stage piano CP88 at home.... after 3 days the first keys in the mechanics started to make other annoying noises there too.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not picky, but if it doesn't harmonize with such expensive instruments right from the start, then I'd rather not. Another problem was the high velocity values, which were very difficult to achieve in a playful way. 

Had the Roland A88MK2 in mind but somehow it didn't really convince me in the store either. Roland RD200 with the super keys sounded a bit strange in the store. 

Dexibell 7 pro has a nice approach but also pricy and a Fatar GH40 inside...ARRGH!

I had a long conversation with an older salesman and he told me behind closed doors that there was simply nothing good left in this class. Up until the 90s it was different in his opinion, Kawai still had something reasonably reasonable but nobody gets anything like that under the table.


----------



## Jorf88

muddyblue said:


> An absolute horror at the moment to find a big nice one that simply works...
> 
> I have had several exchange keyboards KK88MK2 (noisy keys) after some time, Fatar 100tgh just doesn't work for me and I love the part so much.
> 
> Then I asked around and had the Yamaha stage piano CP88 at home.... after 3 days the first keys in the mechanics started to make other annoying noises there too.
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not picky, but if it doesn't harmonize with such expensive instruments right from the start, then I'd rather not. Another problem was the high velocity values, which were very difficult to achieve in a playful way.
> 
> Had the Roland A88MK2 in mind but somehow it didn't really convince me in the store either. Roland RD200 with the super keys sounded a bit strange in the store.
> 
> Dexibell 7 pro has a nice approach but also pricy and a Fatar GH40 inside...ARRGH!
> 
> I had a long conversation with an older salesman and he told me behind closed doors that there was simply nothing good left in this class. Up until the 90s it was different in his opinion, Kawai still had something reasonably reasonable but nobody gets anything like that under the table.


This is unfortunately where I pessimistically sit. By RD200 I assume you mean RD2000, which has the PHA50 action, the same as my FP90.
That's why I've chosen to just stick with that for now... It's really not perfect, it's heavier than I want it to be in terms of action, but it really is a nice action. Mine is 5 years old at this point and still plays like it's brand new.

I want to get my hands on some Kawai controllers, but nowhere near me has them. I'd really love to play a VPC1 and see if it lives up to the hype.


----------



## jaketanner

muddyblue said:


> Had the Roland A88MK2 in mind but somehow it didn't really convince me in the store either.


How so? This is what i have my eye on in the next month or so. I do like the action (more or less the same as the fp60x)...the A88 MKII has the very latest PHA-4 action...it's more advanced than other PHA-4...this is straight from Roland's support.


----------



## muddyblue

jaketanner said:


> How so? This is what i have my eye on in the next month or so. I do like the action (more or less the same as the fp60x)...the A88 MKII has the very latest PHA-4 action...it's more advanced than other PHA-4...this is straight from Roland's support.



I just found the keyboard, sorry a bit "soulless" when playing in the store. But yes, there are hardly any alternatives, I just found an A88-MK2 with a guarantee on the used market and will take it for the time being so that I have something to play with and I hope that something new and really good will come onto the market soon. It can't be true in 2022


----------



## jaketanner

muddyblue said:


> I just found the keyboard, sorry a bit "soulless" when playing in the store. But yes, there are hardly any alternatives, I just found an A88-MK2 with a guarantee on the used market and will take it for the time being so that I have something to play with and I hope that something new and really good will come onto the market soon. It can't be true in 2022


Nice. Please keep me posted how you like it.


----------



## muddyblue

jaketanner said:


> Nice. Please keep me posted how you like it.


Sorry, posted it here: https://vi-control.net/community/th...or-arturia-keylab-88-mkii.120487/post-5036913

But meanwhile I like it. It's very flexible. It's not annoying when playing, velocity values are good, but it's not really nice, but it doesn't matter. I'm getting used to it


----------



## jaketanner

muddyblue said:


> Sorry, posted it here: https://vi-control.net/community/th...or-arturia-keylab-88-mkii.120487/post-5036913
> 
> But meanwhile I like it. It's very flexible. It's not annoying when playing, velocity values are good, but it's not really nice, but it doesn't matter. I'm getting used to it


Nice you mean aesthetically?


----------



## jaketanner

muddyblue said:


> Sorry, posted it here: https://vi-control.net/community/th...or-arturia-keylab-88-mkii.120487/post-5036913
> 
> But meanwhile I like it. It's very flexible. It's not annoying when playing, velocity values are good, but it's not really nice, but it doesn't matter. I'm getting used to it


I did see that review. Read it a while back. I’m excited to get mine. Probably in a few weeks. Still in moving mode.


----------



## muddyblue

jaketanner said:


> Nice you mean aesthetically?


Yes exactly, excuse my english.


----------



## jaketanner

muddyblue said:


> Yes exactly, excuse my english.


No worries at all. Re reading your other post I knew that’s probably what you meant. I’m gonna try and slide it Uber a desk, but what I like is the flat top do I can put my Monogram control on top.


----------



## Stevie

What about the Dexibell VIVO 9, has anyone got one?

I’m looking for a keyboard where I’m finally able to play fast repetitions.
I have been using a S88 MK1 for the last 6 years and it’s the worst keyboard I have ever owned.


----------



## muddyblue

jaketanner said:


> No worries at all. Re reading your other post I knew that’s probably what you meant. I’m gonna try and slide it Uber a desk, but what I like is the flat top do I can put my Monogram control on top.


...yes It would fit the monogram but no space for a mouse/keyboard :-(


----------



## jaketanner

muddyblue said:


> ...yes It would fit the monogram but no space for a mouse/keyboard :-(


Not to worried about keyboard and trackball for me. I like space for those so I’ll be using the desk. So the Monogram rests on an angle or flat? The picture looks like it’s a bit tiled forward.


----------



## muddyblue

jaketanner said:


> Not to worried about keyboard and trackball for me. I like space for those so I’ll be using the desk. So the Monogram rests on an angle or flat? The picture looks like it’s a bit tiled forward.


No, in the example it is right on the surface of the Roland, its a tinybit angeled and it is slightly over the back. I have the monograms on the desk.


----------



## Simon Ravn

Zoot_Rollo said:


> I liked it so much, I bought 3!
> 
> Kidding aside, this is indeed my third unit.
> 
> The first was exchanged through Musician's Friend.
> 
> The second was exchanged through M-Audio support.
> 
> I was assured I would get a new, fully tested, A stock replacement.
> 
> The second had display issues and would disconnect from Studio One after a few hours idle.
> 
> This third unit looks good so far. Crisp display and solid DAW connection.
> 
> I hung in with the Hammer 88 Pro because of the action, features, and cost.
> 
> The DAW integration is very good.
> 
> The sliders and presets are great!!! The Preset Editor is a lifesaver!
> 
> The graded hammer action with aftertouch is light-years ahead of my old SL88 Studio.
> 
> I think the H88Pro fills a market space other manufacturers could take advantage of.


Thanks for posting your experience with this. Have had an eye on the Hammer 88 and Pro for a while, but read a lot of quality issues stories that kept me away. Did you try the normal Hammer 88, before the Pro? The Pro has graded action, which seems wrong for what I am doing (mostly not piano playing that is). Having same velocity response across the entire keyboard should be better suited for playing anything but piano. That and aftertouch seems to be the main differences between Pro and non-pro.


----------



## jaketanner

muddyblue said:


> No, in the example it is right on the surface of the Roland, its a tinybit angeled and it is slightly over the back. I have the monograms on the desk.


oh ok, got it. Thanks.


----------



## muddyblue

Stevie said:


> have been using a S88 MK1 for the last 6 years and it’s the worst keyboard I have ever owned


I recently played a dexibell in the music store. it has a Fatar 400W nice and expensive... but fast reps with the weighted keys? Would recommend a second synthy keyboard with 49-61 keys.
The S88 MK1 /MK2 is really the worst keyboard, I felt the same way...


----------



## Stevie

Before the S88, I used a Yamaha P300 Digital Piano. It's 40 cm in height (totally impossible to fit it under a desk) and weighs 40 kg. Fast repetitions were indeed possible. Also, not 100% accurate.

Triple sensors are supposed to capture it even better:


----------



## muddyblue

Yes the Kawai‘s are good but to bulky to fit under a desk. Dexibell uses triple sensors.... It seems that you should spent some time at your local dealer


----------



## Stevie

My local dealer unfortunately has nothing in that regard. And the next one is hours away.
But oh well...


----------



## muddyblue

Stevie said:


> My local dealer unfortunately has nothing in that regard. And the next one is hours away.
> But oh well...


This is a pity. I can't really recommend anything, I'm still waiting for miracles.... in the meantime I bought the Roland A-88MKII and I'm happy with it for now.


----------



## Stevie

That’s great to hear. Still miles ahead of S88, I suppose?
Is there anything you are unhappy with regarding the A88 II?


----------



## muddyblue

Stevie said:


> That’s great to hear. Still miles ahead of S88, I suppose?
> Is there anything you are unhappy with regarding the A88 II?


Yes miles better (...the Keybed PHA-4; which I didn't like at the first time, but now works for me) 
The overall build quality, Midi 2.0 ready (I haven't used it directly yet, but I checked the box 2.0 in logic ..), the many possibilities to assign the thing freely with PRGM CHG /CC /Note and the free color design for the pads and knobs.

What I miss: Big modwheel (..use sliders of monogram instead), aftertouch, endless knobs, the quick access for Sound Previews (..only Komplete Kontrol has got), a deeper space for Mouse/Trackpad & Keyboard, its all good plastic - *but that's just whining on a really high level *


----------



## Stevie

Ah yeah, aftertouch and the wheels… 
Regarding Komplete integration: I gotta say that I’m not even remotely using that feature as much as I first thought. So, I can easily do without.

What was it that you didn’t like with the keybed at first?


----------



## muddyblue

Stevie said:


> Ah yeah, aftertouch and the wheels…
> Regarding Komplete integration: I gotta say that I’m not even remotely using that feature as much as I first thought. So, I can easily do without.
> 
> What was it that you didn’t like with the keybed at first?


That's hard to describe. At the store I was quite disappointed with the feel compared to yamaha cp88. But I also had the CP88 for a week and several keys sounded different and high velocity values were too difficult to achieve (for me). The Roland solves this really well with 6 velocity curves. I also like the response behavior in real life mode. You can forget about such cramped marketing with graduated keys anyway.


----------



## ryevick

After playing one in person, I bought a Yamaha KX8 used and have never regretted it. It's great for piano. I would never use it for a keyboard/organ/synth instrument... only piano but it's perfect for that. It stays put on it's stand (it's a bit heavy). 

I use a Yamaha MX61 for all other key parts.


----------



## ChrisHarrison

I'm using a Kawaii VPC-1. It's the bomb. Period. I've tried them all, it's the best. It's expensive, but it's a lifer instrument. I can't imagine not having it now. It really is something special. You won't be disappointed. I'm using keyscape and I just set the velocity curve to the kawaii controller and it's just perfect. I have a Native Instruments 88 and that is very nice and cool and all, but it doesn't even really compare to the kawaii.


----------



## garaughty

I've been using the Oxygen 88 by M-Audio for years without any problems, it plays like a dream... a real workhorse !


----------



## SomeGuy

Anyone try the newly released Launchkey 88? Given the price I’m not going to hold my breath, but Novation has made quality midi keyboards in the past so it might be worth trying: https://novationmusic.com/en/keys/launchkey-88

Interesting review here: https://www.engadget.com/novation-launchkey-88-midi-controller-ableton-live-150037763.html


----------



## tressie5

^Oh, wow - that's a lot like my Impact LX88+ except it has more 8 more pads and an arpeggiator. Too bad it's like the Nektar in that it only has a sustain jack but no expression jack. If I didn't have my Nektar, I might've went for the Launchkey 88.


----------



## Pier

tressie5 said:


> ^Oh, wow - that's a lot like my Impact LX88+ except it has more 8 more pads and an arpeggiator. Too bad it's like the Nektar in that it only has a sustain jack but no expression jack. If I didn't have my Nektar, I might've went for the Launchkey 88.


It's amazing that so few controllers these days have an expression pedal input. I recently got one and it's a game changer.


----------



## poly6

Review by John Mike (Gospel Producers):



Not my cup of tea but it does seem to compete in the same class as the Nektar Impact line.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

This looks interesting:









Novation’s Award-winning Launchkey Range Gets an 88-key addition


Novation is proud to announce Launchkey 88– Novation’s first 88-key MIDI keyboard controller. Designed for the player, Launchkey 88 elevates musical performance and songwriting with unique inspirational features, 16 velocity-sensitive pads and an 88key semi-weighted keybed designed to capture...




synthandsoftware.com


----------



## brek

"Premium keys

Launchkey 88’s premium semi-weighted keybed sets it apart from the rest of the Launchkey range. Launchkey 88 features Novation’s best feeling keymech to date, the result of meticulous refinement and testing"

Actually disappointed to read this. I've long wanted an 88 key version of the LaunchKey, but they changed the one thing I really liked about it.

I feel like there's an uncanny valley with some "semi weighted" keys and more often they'd be better off just embracing the synth action.

Will definitely give it a look. My Nektar GXP88 is merely adequate, so hopefully the higher price bracket brings a more enjoyable playing experience.


----------



## SomeGuy

brek said:


> "Premium keys
> 
> Launchkey 88’s premium semi-weighted keybed sets it apart from the rest of the Launchkey range. Launchkey 88 features Novation’s best feeling keymech to date, the result of meticulous refinement and testing"
> 
> Actually disappointed to read this. I've long wanted an 88 key version of the LaunchKey, but they changed the one thing I really liked about it.
> 
> I feel like there's an uncanny valley with some "semi weighted" keys and more often they'd be better off just embracing the synth action.
> 
> Will definitely give it a look. My Nektar GXP88 is merely adequate, so hopefully the higher price bracket brings a more enjoyable playing experience.


100% agree!


----------



## Justin L. Franks

Pier said:


> It's amazing that so few controllers these days have an expression pedal input. I recently got one and it's a game changer.


Absolutely! Being able to play with both hands, and using an expression pedal set to CC1, definitely is a game-changer.


----------



## rectiii

Looking at that Novation 88, what does semi weighted mean exactly? I've only used a Yamaha P90 which is a fully weighted and an SL25MKII which is a plasticcy springy feel and a kontrol S61 which might also be a plasticcy springy non weighted keyset. Is any of those semi weighted? Or does it actually feel like piano action without the wrist wrecking element, which as a non piano player I really noticed with the P90.


----------



## Justin L. Franks

rectiii said:


> Looking at that Novation 88, what does semi weighted mean exactly? I've only used a Yamaha P90 which is a fully weighted and an SL25MKII which is a plasticcy springy feel and a kontrol S61 which might also be a plasticcy springy non weighted keyset. Is any of those semi weighted? Or does it actually feel like piano action without the wrist wrecking element, which as a non piano player I really noticed with the P90.


The S61 is semi-weighted. But there really is no standard for "synth-action" vs "semi-weighted", so one manufacturer's "semi-weighted" keybed can feel close to another manufacturer's non-weighted / "synth-action" keybed.

The general idea is that on a semi-weighted action, there are additional weights added to the keys, requiring extra force to play, and the keys don't "rebound" as fast when released.


----------



## rectiii

Justin L. Franks said:


> The S61 is semi-weighted. But there really is no standard for "synth-action" vs "semi-weighted", so one manufacturer's "semi-weighted" keybed can feel close to another manufacturer's non-weighted / "synth-action" keybed.
> 
> The general idea is that on a semi-weighted action, there are additional weights added to the keys, requiring extra force to play, and the keys don't "rebound" as fast when released.


Perfect, thanks Justin.


----------



## jaketanner

rectiii said:


> Looking at that Novation 88, what does semi weighted mean exactly? I've only used a Yamaha P90 which is a fully weighted and an SL25MKII which is a plasticcy springy feel and a kontrol S61 which might also be a plasticcy springy non weighted keyset. Is any of those semi weighted? Or does it actually feel like piano action without the wrist wrecking element, which as a non piano player I really noticed with the P90.


Synth action has springs usually...it is meant for very fast playing, that is usually non expressive but can be velocity sensitive. Semi-weighted has a bit of a give to the key when you press it, but it is very light also, but will allow for more expressive playing....basically it tried to imitate fully weighted, but with no real feedback from the keys since it is not usually balanced. If you are a non pianist and want fully weighted keys, then look at light touch keybeds like the M Audio Hammer 88/pro...but something like a Roland or Yamaha might have a heavier feel. NOTE: Lighter feeling weighted keys allow you a more universal control over sounds other than piano...playing an organ on a heavy feeling keybed is weird...LOL. Hope this helps.


----------



## Jorf88

rectiii said:


> Looking at that Novation 88, what does semi weighted mean exactly? I've only used a Yamaha P90 which is a fully weighted and an SL25MKII which is a plasticcy springy feel and a kontrol S61 which might also be a plasticcy springy non weighted keyset. Is any of those semi weighted? Or does it actually feel like piano action without the wrist wrecking element, which as a non piano player I really noticed with the P90.


To second what Justin said... yep the S61 is semi-weighted. The problem is that everyone's definition of that is different.
I know what _I_ _want _semi-weighted to mean, but almost none of them that I've touched actually back it up.

I bought and used an Alesis VI-61 for a couple weeks, and those keys felt like what I want a "semi-weighted" action to feel like. There's a slight indentation/change in pressure in the middle of the key depressment, and a bit of a bounce at the bottom. When you press a key down and slide your finger off the end, the key comes back up to the top of its range and "bounces" off the top. It doesn't just snap to the all-the-way-up position and stop immediately (this is what synth actions do, that I would describe as "springy").
The Alesis was let down by inconsistent velocity reproduction on the black vs white keys... I'd be getting +/- 20 on what should be as identical of velocities as my hands are capable of producing.

I got my hands on a Novation Impulse for a little bit in the used section of a music shop while I was on vacation, and it also had a very nice feeling action in terms of semi-weightedness. I've contemplated picking one up to try it, but I've been sluggish because I don't want to be disappointed again.

My short list of keyboards I'd love to try right now:
Novation Impulse 61
M-Audio Keystaion 61
Nektar GXP61
Novation Launchkey 88 (newly released, apparently has some variety of "semi-weighted" keybed)

The most puzzling part of this whole semi-weighted thing to me is that I disassembled a Nektar Panorama T6 that I owned when I temporarily had the Alesis VI-61... and the construction of the keybeds was nearly identical, aside from whatever was buried under the keys that I didn't try to take apart. The spring hinging and pad placement was all nearly the same. The position of the midi sensors was different, but that shouldn't change how the keys feel to physically play, only how the data is picked up on the other end.

My search continues.




I keep waiting to see a sale on something to risk picking it up, but I think the reality is that midi keyboards just rarely ever go on sale. 

I've got my Roland FP90 on my desk for the moment, but I'm tired of how big/bulky it is, and it sucks for trying to write flute/piccolo lines. It's too heavy/slow for that, despite being a wonderful action for playing piano.


----------



## rectiii

I'm actually more interested in the big bulky 88 keys because I am not a piano player but I like to write stuff that needs big chords and I dont really like midi so much (!). Although I don't like Coldplay, I would say I play like that, a bit non classical, just playing as a hack, making it up as I go along with rubbish technique. And if I could get that feel of the keys without going down fully weighted, then that would be interesting as my desk is not just for music so putting a P90 or FP90 on it is annoying. Hence why I asked about the novation as it's much smaller and lighter. But it sounds like I would feel like I was playing a synth.. Which is what I want to avoid.


----------



## Tom_D

Jorf88 said:


> *Roland FP-90*
> There's a lot I could say about this piano, and 98% of it is great. I love it as a digital piano, the PHA-50 action is absolutely fantastic. This was actually a present from my parents and grandmother one year for the holidays. The issue is that it's on a big Z stand in a different room than my rig, and it absolutely won't fit on my desk, and I can't put it next to it either. I'm really contemplating the effort of the desk reorganization to make it happen, but I'm not sure I _want _this beast as a MIDI controller. I love it for piano, but I don't think I would like it for software instruments, as I find playing quick repeated notes on it to be cumbersome since it's just a little bouncy and slightly too heavy for VIs.


I use the Roland FP-7 (have been for ~10 years now) as my DAW keyboard. I kind of know what you mean about "heavy" for VIs, but I still prefer it to any other keyboard type. I use a stand like this...









Yorkville Sound - Deluxe 4-Leg Collapsible Keyboard Stand


Yorkville Sound - Deluxe 4-Leg Collapsible Keyboard Stand




www.long-mcquade.com





What I did was I built a little wood platform that spans left to ight in front of the piano keyboard - this wood plank is fastened to the stand with bolts as there are already holes milled into the stand. This platform is just deep enough to hold a computer keyboard and a small midi controller, and this is where I type / use the mouse (trackball). Because it is not too deep, it doesn't interfere with piano playing; I am not "leaning" over the keyboard tray to reach the piano. This is the most comfortable setup I've use so far to arrange a piano keyboard and computer keyboard / mouse / midi controller. I can type comfortably, play piano comfortably, and I also don't have to lean over the piano keyboard to reach a mouse or qwerty that is beyond the piano, seated on the desk.


----------



## Jorf88

Well, I've once again been reminded that sometimes complaining on a forum is apparently the answer?

Amazon had the GXP61 on sale tonight for 20% off (so like 183USD total). I don't think I've ever seen it on sale before.
We'll see if I hate it or not. One way or another, I promise you guys a written report about it here.
If anyone wants details, quote me so I get pinged about it and ask them.

I'll attempt a rough gram weight test for the white and black keys to produce certain midi CC velocities. When I say rough, it's because I don't have real gram weights. What I do have is a a big ol' stack of nickels, dimes, pennies and an analytical gram scale that I've tested to be accurate to +/- 0.01g. Being a scientist gives me all sorts of weird quirks. :D

I'm a bit worried about the reportedly slightly slanted backwards keys of the GXP61, but at the same time... I put my midi controller on my main desk behind my actual keyboard, so the slant could theoretically be beneficial? 

I just know that I want a decent/playable keybed that isn't horribly loud, and doesn't have a huge amount of extra hardware bolted to it. I miss having more space on my desk. The FP90 needs to go back on the Z stand where it belongs.


----------



## Pier

Jorf88 said:


> I just know that I want a decent/playable keybed that isn't horribly loud,


Sorry but I have the GXP49 and it's kinda crappy and loud...

It has an expression pedal input though which is nice.


----------



## Jorf88

Pier said:


> Sorry but I have the GXP49 and it's kinda crappy and loud...
> 
> It has an expression pedal input though which is nice.


This is not what I wanted to hear... :(
Oh well, I already ordered it. I'm going to give it a try and see what I think.


----------



## X-Bassist

Pier said:


> Sorry but I have the GXP49 and it's kinda crappy and loud...
> 
> It has an expression pedal input though which is nice.


You can also use volume pedals or expression pedals straight to usb, so the keyboard doesn’t need to have this input.

This is my favorite, hooks my 4 Yamaha volume pedals to usb (with a great control app to change curves, channels, etc) for expression, vibrato, CC11, anything you want all at the same time. Works great. The owner is great and supports the product well.





MIDI Expression







www.audiofront.net





Sliders can work too, but I love having 2 hands free for playing. And once you adjust the curves to the specific pedal in the app, it works amazingly well. I’ll even adjust the curve for specific instruments- more space for the quiet end or the loud end depending how you change the curve).


----------



## emasters

I have a GXP61 and like it. But... I had to purchase 4 to get one that had the best key response. If you play the keys hard, no problem - velocity works fine when playing with a lot of force. But if you play softly (low velocity), many of the keys won't trigger. After getting the 4th one, I decided what the heck -- I'll take it apart and figure out what's going on. Turns out the carpet-like strip that covers the aftertouch ribbon, is thick enough, that it interferes with the most downward position on some (but not all) of the keys. Some work fine at very low velocity - many do not. So after pondering this a bit (there are things about the GPX61 I like, so I wanted to keep it), I came up with a way to trigger the keys that otherwise don't work at low velocity (about 15 keys, on my unit). At this point, I have all the GXP screws out so I can open the case quickly if needed, I learned how to get the white and black keys off easily, and add my little paper shim at the right spot above the keyboard sensor, on the impacted keys. At this point it works well, has aftertouch (which I like for this priced keyboard) and I get the programmable pedal inputs. Plus the Nektarine app is a quick way to load and save combinations of instruments that otherwise don't have multis (did someone mention the Spitfire player . I've only had to "adjust" the velocity sensor shims once after the initial go at it -- so overall, seems to be working here. Would be curious to see what @Jorf88's experience is with low velocity triggering across the keyboard. If they all work as expected at low velocity, consider yourself fortunate.


----------



## Pier

emasters said:


> I have a GXP61 and like it. But... I had to purchase 4 to get one that had the best key response. If you play the keys hard, no problem - velocity works fine when playing with a lot of force. But if you play softly (low velocity), many of the keys won't trigger. After getting the 4th one, I decided what the heck -- I'll take it apart and figure out what's going on. Turns out the carpet-like strip that covers the aftertouch ribbon, is thick enough, that it interferes with the most downward position on some (but not all) of the keys. Some work fine at very low velocity - many do not. So after pondering this a bit (there are things about the GPX61 I like, so I wanted to keep it), I came up with a way to trigger the keys that otherwise don't work at low velocity (about 15 keys, on my unit). At this point, I have all the GXP screws out so I can open the case quickly if needed, I learned how to get the white and black keys off easily, and add my little paper shim at the right spot above the keyboard sensor, on the impacted keys. At this point it works well, has aftertouch (which I like for this priced keyboard) and I get the programmable pedal inputs. Plus the Nektarine app is a quick way to load and save combinations of instruments that otherwise don't have multis (did someone mention the Spitfire player . I've only had to "adjust" the velocity sensor shims once after the initial go at it -- so overall, seems to be working here. Would be curious to see what @Jorf88's experience is with low velocity triggering across the keyboard. If they all work as expected at low velocity, consider yourself fortunate.


I'd say I have a similar experience with low velocity. Also the noise of the keys is not the same on all keys either. There was a very noisy key but it seems to be quieter now after a couple of months of using it.

Honestly I just use it to program synths in front of the computer so I don't care much. If I wanted it for playing I would have returned it.

One good thing is that it's not very tall and fits perfectly in a tray under the desk (like the GX49 it replaced).


----------



## emasters

Pier said:


> One good thing is that it's not very tall and fits perfectly in a tray under the desk (like the GX49 it replaced).


Exactly - my ideal keyboard is a narrow/thin footprint (without the extra knobs/pads/buttons adding depth and weight), aftertouch with consistent soft/hard velocity across the full range, solid key feel, both sustain and expression/programmable pedal input and real knobs for pitch and modulation. Bonus points for simple DAW control (like GXP has). Really been difficult to find a quality keyboard with this combination, in a cost-effective unit. GXP comes close, albeit with the afore mentioned velocity issues. Similar here - use the GXP with Logic to record tracks. Have a weighted Fatar 88 note keyboard for actual performance. But more often, just recording parts into Logic with the GXP.


----------



## FJ5

I have the Novation Launchkey 88. No piano/keyboard player really but I've tested velocity response extensively & it's excellent. Full 1 -127 available, & uniform response across all keys (including sharps & flats). Quality build (knobs, faders etc.). Lack of aftertouch, non-endless encoders & expression pedal input a bit polarising for some, but if I ever I needed that (I don't at the moment) my Arturia KeyStep 37 does all that anyway. 

Incidently I used to own a GXP88 - got through 4, returned due various faults including mod wheel sticking, dead keys, no velocity response on some keys (i.e. 127 the whole time) or unable to get anything unless hammering them. In the end I gave up & got a refund. I think Nektar are spot on with their software, ideas & customer support but they really need to sort out their QC. That said, I own an LX Impact Mini & it's excellent...


----------



## tmhuud

Good luck with your search. I’ll stick with expensive Roland/synth gear. Lol. Yesterday we fired up the Fantomx8 and it didn’t turn on. Immediately we looked at each other and at the same time said Fuuuuuccckkk…. Then someone noted the power cord somehow became slightly dislodged from sliding the synth in and out repeatedly for years. But after it goes I think I’ll just quit the business. 

Note: ROLANDS not perfect. The pitch /Mod wheel/stick sux, so that’s all assigned to a custom wheels.


----------



## Jorf88

FJ5 said:


> I have the Novation Launchkey 88. No piano/keyboard player really but I've tested velocity response extensively & it's excellent. Full 1 -127 available, & uniform response across all keys (including sharps & flats). Quality build (knobs, faders etc.). Lack of aftertouch, non-endless encoders & expression pedal input a bit polarising for some, but if I ever I needed that (I don't at the moment) my Arturia KeyStep 37 does all that anyway.
> 
> Incidently I used to own a GXP88 - got through 4, returned due various faults including mod wheel sticking, dead keys, no velocity response on some keys (i.e. 127 the whole time) or unable to get anything unless hammering them. In the end I gave up & got a refund. I think Nektar are spot on with their software, ideas & customer support but they really need to sort out their QC. That said, I own an LX Impact Mini & it's excellent...


The launchkey 88 that's just recently/currently released? I can't even find it for sale anywhere. Where did you get it?



My update: I got the GXP61, and as I kinda figured, I'm not a big fan of it.
The black key dynamic touch weight is absolutely horrible. The white key depression depth is bigger than it should be. Almost every digital piano and midi keyboard that I've ever played has a white key depression of almost exactly 1cm. The GXP61 is like 1.2-1.3cm.

So, this isn't the most accurate set of tests in the world, but I measure touch weight with stacks of nickels. They're approximately 5g each. I say dynamic touch weight because, for those unfamiliar with piano terms: static touch weight is the amount of weight that you have to add to the end of a key to get it to begin to depress, but that doesn't mean that it makes sound. As we're dealing with a mix of weighted, semi-weighted, and synth keyboards in a MIDI context... I instead measure what I guess you could call "minimum dynamic touchweight". I measure the amount of weight I have to add to produce any sound. I do it this way because you can adjust curves etc to make playing softer/harder notes slightly easier, but the minimum force to actuate the sensors is somewhat set in stone for a given set of hardware.

For reference, my Roland FP90 has the following dynamic touchweights:
White keys
A0: 80g
C4: 75g
C8: 70g
Black keys
A#0: 85g
C#4: 85g
A#7: 75g

Again, I'm not going for super duper granular results here. Yes, I could find a way to measure down to the gram, I don't care to be that specific. The differences I feel in some different keybeds are _massive_.

So... the GXP61:
It's not graded, I checked on the lowest/middle/highest white and black keys, they were all the same:
White keys: 70g
Black keys: 100g (!??!?!?)

They black keys feel so horribly different from the white keys that I absolutely can't grab a handful of keys and get the velocities that I want out of my different fingers.

Yes, I know you can play the "what can you expect for $200", and I'm going to say a damn sight more than that nonsense.

Edit: I should probably say of the few nice things I noticed about the GXP-61.

It does genuinely have semi-weighted keys. My litmus test for this is simple: if you slide a finger off of a depressed key, it should bounce against the top of its action. If it just snaps back to its uppermost point, it's a synth action. That bounce, to me, denotes that the spring force and mass of the key is balanced in such a way that the key can store a reasonable amount of kinetic energy when you apply enough force to depress it. I'm probably going too far down my science rabbit hole. I digress, apart from the depth of the white key depressions being too deep for my liking, they actually feel really nice.
They are also a bit noisy. I'm not going to call them loud, they're not _that _bad, but they're notably louder than my KK M32 or Roland FP90.
The buttons and knobs seem to be of reasonable quality. The lighting is nice. It actually has a power switch. These are all good things. I just can't get past how stiff the damn black keys are.


All of this being said... I think I know where I'm going next. The first time I tried a Casio keyboard I hate it, but now every time I go back to the music shop, the PX-S1000/1100 grows on me a little more. Well, today I figured out why. I went to my guitar center and brought my little taped up nickel weights with me.
PX-S1100
C4: 65g
C#4: 60g


That light touch with a hammer-ish action is exactly what I want. The super compact form factor of the Casio is also a plus for my desk. My second biggest reservation is that it doesn't have pitch/mod and I'm not sure if the octave shift that it has built in will work for transmitted midi. My biggest reservation is that I _hate _Casio's faux ivory feel on the keys. They feel so cheap and sticky... then again the only one that I've played is at a guitar center, so it honestly _is _a little sticky. Maybe a new one won't be so bad?

I'm going to return the GXP61. I just have to think about if there's any other tests I want to run with it before it's out of my hands.


----------



## tmpc

Paul Jelfs said:


> Some one needs to invent "Virtual Gloves" so you can try these Keybeds from the comfort on our own Project studio


If you had virtual gloves that could do that, you wouldn't need a real keyboard.


----------



## Jorf88

I don't know why it took me so long to find this, probably because of the search terms I was using.
Sweetwater has a nice article on this, though it's outdated by a couple years in terms of which models are represented:









The Definitive Digital Piano Keyboard Touch Experiment - inSync


Can you measure the touch or feel of a digital piano? Is there an objective way to represent the action so you can know what to expect? The answer is yes.




www.sweetwater.com





They did essentially the same thing I did, but using real gram weights. They were going for the minimum amount of weight for the piano to sound (minimum dynamic touch weight). 

Their results for the P90 (77g) is also very close to my measurement (75g). 

They talk a little bit about trigger-weight vs sustain-weight for those low velocity notes... I wasn't differentiating.

Their conclusions state something that I think I've also discovered in my pursuits: Intuitively, I expected semi-weighted keyboards to be inherently "lighter" actions than fully weighted keybeds, and that simply hasn't been the case. Most semi-weighted keybeds are actually significantly heavier, especially with their black keys.

I know I'm into the deep end here, hopefully some of you enjoy reading my thoughts on this matter. I I've discovered that I'm probably a lot pickier about keyboards than most of the people on this forum. I just know that if I have an idea in my head, and what I'm telling my trained hands to play on the keyboard doesn't turn out that way in the DAW because of crappy velocities or keys not triggering, it infuriates me to no end.


----------



## jaketanner

Jorf88 said:


> I don't know why it took me so long to find this, probably because of the search terms I was using.
> Sweetwater has a nice article on this, though it's outdated by a couple years in terms of which models are represented:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Definitive Digital Piano Keyboard Touch Experiment - inSync
> 
> 
> Can you measure the touch or feel of a digital piano? Is there an objective way to represent the action so you can know what to expect? The answer is yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sweetwater.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They did essentially the same thing I did, but using real gram weights. They were going for the minimum amount of weight for the piano to sound (minimum dynamic touch weight).
> 
> Their results for the P90 (77g) is also very close to my measurement (75g).
> 
> They talk a little bit about trigger-weight vs sustain-weight for those low velocity notes... I wasn't differentiating.
> 
> Their conclusions state something that I think I've also discovered in my pursuits: Intuitively, I expected semi-weighted keyboards to be inherently "lighter" actions than fully weighted keybeds, and that simply hasn't been the case. Most semi-weighted keybeds are actually significantly heavier, especially with their black keys.
> 
> I know I'm into the deep end here, hopefully some of you enjoy reading my thoughts on this matter. I I've discovered that I'm probably a lot pickier about keyboards than most of the people on this forum. I just know that if I have an idea in my head, and what I'm telling my trained hands to play on the keyboard doesn't turn out that way in the DAW because of crappy velocities or keys not triggering, it infuriates me to no end.


Getting weighted and semi-weighted actions to react perfectly to your playing is a tricky one, and often requires a bit of tweaking to get it right. Believe it or not, the ONLY weighted action that I left as - is and was absolutely perfect from velocity 1-127 with ease...was the M-Audio Hammer 88 MKI (original). The keys were light also, which made it great for other instruments other than piano. What I didn't like was the added noise on the keys, but if you are in a studio environment, this shouldn't be an issue. They are certainly quieter than the Casio PX350 I had years ago...those keys were loud as hell...playing an intimate piece was terrible. Of course, as a gigging piano, I'm sure it was fine.

My Roland A88 MKII has quiet keys and the velocity is decent. Meaning that I do have to switch velocity modes depending on which piano library I am using...but it is just a button click away, so switching is very easy.

One word on the key weight, particularly in regards to the black keys towards the back...you want the pressure to be dead on even OR lighter towards the back end fro when playing in keys that have multiple accidentals. The Roland A88 is absolutely fantastic at this, since it seems equal pressure from front to back, thus making it much more accurate to an acoustic when playing on the black keys. There are some 88 keys (weighted and semi) that are much harder to press toward the back end, and that makes for a terrible experience.

But do expect some tweaking of velocity curves between piano libraries...this is pretty normal.


----------



## FJ5

Jorf88 said:


> The launchkey 88 that's just recently/currently released? I can't even find it for sale anywhere. Where did you get it?
> 
> 
> 
> My update: I got the GXP61, and as I kinda figured, I'm not a big fan of it.
> The black key dynamic touch weight is absolutely horrible. The white key depression depth is bigger than it should be. Almost every digital piano and midi keyboard that I've ever played has a white key depression of almost exactly 1cm. The GXP61 is like 1.2-1.3cm.
> 
> So, this isn't the most accurate set of tests in the world, but I measure touch weight with stacks of nickels. They're approximately 5g each. I say dynamic touch weight because, for those unfamiliar with piano terms: static touch weight is the amount of weight that you have to add to the end of a key to get it to begin to depress, but that doesn't mean that it makes sound. As we're dealing with a mix of weighted, semi-weighted, and synth keyboards in a MIDI context... I instead measure what I guess you could call "minimum dynamic touchweight". I measure the amount of weight I have to add to produce any sound. I do it this way because you can adjust curves etc to make playing softer/harder notes slightly easier, but the minimum force to actuate the sensors is somewhat set in stone for a given set of hardware.
> 
> For reference, my Roland FP90 has the following dynamic touchweights:
> White keys
> A0: 80g
> C4: 75g
> C8: 70g
> Black keys
> A#0: 85g
> C#4: 85g
> A#7: 75g
> 
> Again, I'm not going for super duper granular results here. Yes, I could find a way to measure down to the gram, I don't care to be that specific. The differences I feel in some different keybeds are _massive_.
> 
> So... the GXP61:
> It's not graded, I checked on the lowest/middle/highest white and black keys, they were all the same:
> White keys: 70g
> Black keys: 100g (!??!?!?)
> 
> They black keys feel so horribly different from the white keys that I absolutely can't grab a handful of keys and get the velocities that I want out of my different fingers.
> 
> Yes, I know you can play the "what can you expect for $200", and I'm going to say a damn sight more than that nonsense.
> 
> Edit: I should probably say of the few nice things I noticed about the GXP-61.
> 
> It does genuinely have semi-weighted keys. My litmus test for this is simple: if you slide a finger off of a depressed key, it should bounce against the top of its action. If it just snaps back to its uppermost point, it's a synth action. That bounce, to me, denotes that the spring force and mass of the key is balanced in such a way that the key can store a reasonable amount of kinetic energy when you apply enough force to depress it. I'm probably going too far down my science rabbit hole. I digress, apart from the depth of the white key depressions being too deep for my liking, they actually feel really nice.
> They are also a bit noisy. I'm not going to call them loud, they're not _that _bad, but they're notably louder than my KK M32 or Roland FP90.
> The buttons and knobs seem to be of reasonable quality. The lighting is nice. It actually has a power switch. These are all good things. I just can't get past how stiff the damn black keys are.
> 
> 
> All of this being said... I think I know where I'm going next. The first time I tried a Casio keyboard I hate it, but now every time I go back to the music shop, the PX-S1000/1100 grows on me a little more. Well, today I figured out why. I went to my guitar center and brought my little taped up nickel weights with me.
> PX-S1100
> C4: 65g
> C#4: 60g
> 
> 
> That light touch with a hammer-ish action is exactly what I want. The super compact form factor of the Casio is also a plus for my desk. My second biggest reservation is that it doesn't have pitch/mod and I'm not sure if the octave shift that it has built in will work for transmitted midi. My biggest reservation is that I _hate _Casio's faux ivory feel on the keys. They feel so cheap and sticky... then again the only one that I've played is at a guitar center, so it honestly _is _a little sticky. Maybe a new one won't be so bad?
> 
> I'm going to return the GXP61. I just have to think about if there's any other tests I want to run with it before it's out of my hands.


Hey, I’m in the UK, been available for a few weeks now at pretty much all retailers.


----------



## HCMarkus

And, The Answer is...

Two Keyboards. 

One 88 Hammer. One 61 Synth. Play the one that works with the VI you are using at the moment.


----------



## jblongz

I remember a guy sold me his Roland A88 for $215 without telling me he spilled honey into the keybed. I eventually found out when keys started sticking. I open it, performed a detailed cleaning, and now my best 88 key yet. Though the seller was dishonest, it was the sweetest mistake he ever made.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

I wonder which keybed feels better between the lx88 by nektar vs the new launch key 88 by novation? 
Looking to get a new keyboard and thinking semi weighted instead of fully weighted but I am very picky about keybeds. 


Currently using an m audio key station 61 but tired of the old technology and no extra controls. I do like the keybed since I'm not a pianist and don't want to wear out my hands too much. I compose more than I play piano even though I am teaching myself piano so I would like the extra keys so I don't have to switch octaves to play funeral march for example. 

And access to keyswitches would be nice. Also semi weighted are not as tall so slide under the desk easier. 

Anyone have the new launch key that has played the lx88 to compare? 

Thank you!


----------



## Jorf88

Baronvonheadless said:


> I wonder which keybed feels better between the lx88 by nektar vs the new launch key 88 by novation?
> Looking to get a new keyboard and thinking semi weighted instead of fully weighted but I am very picky about keybeds.
> 
> 
> Currently using an m audio key station 61 but tired of the old technology and no extra controls. I do like the keybed since I'm not a pianist and don't want to wear out my hands too much. I compose more than I play piano even though I am teaching myself piano so I would like the extra keys so I don't have to switch octaves to play funeral march for example.
> 
> And access to keyswitches would be nice. Also semi weighted are not as tall so slide under the desk easier.
> 
> Anyone have the new launch key that has played the lx88 to compare?
> 
> Thank you!


I can actually answer this one. 

I played an lx88 in a showroom and thought it felt like a very cheap keyboard. Hollow plastic, gritty sliders, springy keys. I had them pull it over to a computer they had so I could play with it in Kontakt and the velocity responses weren't great. I didn't have good control in the middle dynamics. Not a fan.

I had a Launchkey 88 for about two weeks and decided not to keep it just because I already have a really good digital piano (FP90), and I've learned through this process that I think I just prefer fully weighted keys.
The Launch Key 88 has some of the best feeling semi-weighted keys that I've tried. The one caveat is that (like MANY midi keyboards) the velocity sensitivity of the black keys is notably different than the white keys. It felt like the sensors for the black keys are coded up to take the exact same force -> midi velocity ratio that the white keys... and that's not how it should be, because black keys are shorter and you're at a mechanical disadvantage. I figured that out by using makeshift gram weights. If I put the weight on the white keys right next to where the end of the black keys were, I got the same velocities. if you're not a trained pianist at all, you might not even notice.

The keys do otherwise feel good, though. They really are semi-weighted. They're sprung in such a way that if you depress a key and slip your finger off of the edge of the key, it bounces against the top of the action exactly like a fully weighted piano key does. When I think of a synth action, I distinguish that by being so springy that if you let go of a key it just snaps to the top with no other motion... because the springs are so tight that it's all it can do.

The only other dig I had with the Launchkey 88 is that I couldn't get the pads to play well... their velocity sensitivity was all over the place (regardless of which curve I used). Getting velocity 5-60 was nearly impossible for me. I could either trigger a very very soft velocity, or it'd blast straight to like 90+. It was weird.

If that's the kind of keyboard you're looking for, I'd recommend trying to find a place to try it, or buy from a place you can return it. I do vastly prefer the Launchkey 88 to any Nektar that I've tried.

If Novation put this same semi-weighted action in the 49 or 61 key versions of this keyboard, I would buy one without pause to use as an auxiliary/travel board.


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## Baronvonheadless

Jorf88 said:


> I can actually answer this one.
> 
> I played an lx88 in a showroom and thought it felt like a very cheap keyboard. Hollow plastic, gritty sliders, springy keys. I had them pull it over to a computer they had so I could play with it in Kontakt and the velocity responses weren't great. I didn't have good control in the middle dynamics. Not a fan.
> 
> I had a Launchkey 88 for about two weeks and decided not to keep it just because I already have a really good digital piano (FP90), and I've learned through this process that I think I just prefer fully weighted keys.
> The Launch Key 88 has some of the best feeling semi-weighted keys that I've tried. The one caveat is that (like MANY midi keyboards) the velocity sensitivity of the black keys is notably different than the white keys. It felt like the sensors for the black keys are coded up to take the exact same force -> midi velocity ratio that the white keys... and that's not how it should be, because black keys are shorter and you're at a mechanical disadvantage. I figured that out by using makeshift gram weights. If I put the weight on the white keys right next to where the end of the black keys were, I got the same velocities. if you're not a trained pianist at all, you might not even notice.
> 
> The keys do otherwise feel good, though. They really are semi-weighted. They're sprung in such a way that if you depress a key and slip your finger off of the edge of the key, it bounces against the top of the action exactly like a fully weighted piano key does. When I think of a synth action, I distinguish that by being so springy that if you let go of a key it just snaps to the top with no other motion... because the springs are so tight that it's all it can do.
> 
> The only other dig I had with the Launchkey 88 is that I couldn't get the pads to play well... their velocity sensitivity was all over the place (regardless of which curve I used). Getting velocity 5-60 was nearly impossible for me. I could either trigger a very very soft velocity, or it'd blast straight to like 90+. It was weird.
> 
> If that's the kind of keyboard you're looking for, I'd recommend trying to find a place to try it, or buy from a place you can return it. I do vastly prefer the Launchkey 88 to any Nektar that I've tried.
> 
> If Novation put this same semi-weighted action in the 49 or 61 key versions of this keyboard, I would buy one without pause to use as an auxiliary/travel board.


Thank you so much for this detailed response! Btw. How was connecting it via usb? I have a 2019 MacBook Pro. 

I feel like I read it has a different usb plug than most common keyboards?


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## Justin L. Franks

Baronvonheadless said:


> Thank you so much for this detailed response! Btw. How was connecting it via usb? I have a 2019 MacBook Pro.
> 
> I feel like I read it has a different usb plug than most common keyboards?


It has a standard 'B'-type USB socket. The large square one, same as most other controllers.


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## Baronvonheadless

Justin L. Franks said:


> It has a standard 'B'-type USB socket. The large square one, same as most other controllers.


Ok perfect! I must have misread.


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## ZeroZero

I am stuck in this eternal search too. I have an Arturia Mk II 88. Though I would not like to play this lkeyboard in piano performance, it would do the job. It's a bit heavy and stodgy for my tastes. 
My goto is my RD7OONX which has a PHA III keybed, this is absolutely divine, I have had both the upgrades from this in my studio plus two Nords and they all had to go back because it was obvious that the feel of the RD-700NX was better.
I might note that having done a lot of research into this, and played a lot of keyboards, a high end keyboard must be paired with good software. I have come to the conclusion that modelled software - such as the Supernatural software or my relatively unkown goto, TruePainos, which I strongly recommend, make the feel of gthe keybed much more expressive. I think this is because they do not have layered samples which cross fade, but are more continuous across dynamic levels. The supernatural tech by Roland is a bit of a mystery, but I dont think it's you classic sampled piano. Either way a poorly sampled piano can make any keybed sound rubbish and give a spongy, dull feel. So, it's not just getting the right keybed. but also the right software inbuilt or external MIDI. 
For those that have later generation Rolands, the "Concert Grand" of the supernatural line is found buried in the presets of it's successors.
If I had my way I would have a PHA III controller keyboard 61 keys, but I simply cannot find one. I know Roland now have a PHA 4 keybed, but I am not sure if this is an improvement or not. I don't know if the PHA 4 is even available on a controller keyboard, rather than a stage piano.

Meanwhile, my RD700NX is never going to leave my studio. The only downfall of this keyboard is the weight at 55 pounds, you have to strong. It is built much better than it's successors

Z


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## HCMarkus

jblongz said:


> I remember a guy sold me his Roland A88 for $215 without telling me he spilled honey into the keybed. I eventually found out when keys started sticking. I open it, performed a detailed cleaning, and now my best 88 key yet. Though the seller was dishonest, it was the sweetest mistake he ever made.


Had to disassemble my old Yamaha P150 after The Great beer Spillage of 2005. The beast is still working, albeit as poorly as ever, providing my 3 year old grandson with an instrument to bang on. 

Nowadays, I run a Yamaha P-255 and Arturia KeyLab 61 MkII in the studio. I like the Yamaha's feel for piano, Rhodes and other VIs where finer velocity control in desired. The Keylab keyboard is much better than the Roland A-800 it replaced... longer keys, much better Aftertouch. Situated directly above the Yamaha, it provides a light touch and quick response, plus the wheels, faders and knobs missing from the P-255.


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## Baronvonheadless

Grabbed the Launchkey 88 today!
So it is great! Exactly what I was needing. 88 keys semi weighted and they share the qualities I loved about my M Audio Keystation keybed vs the Akai springy semi weighted keybed I had in my first midi board (the 225) and improves on them. They feel a little more solid and respond a little smoother in a good way to piano playing actually than the key station. 
So far very happy, and glad to have all these other options if I need them vs the simplicity of the key station.


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## planist

Jorf88 said:


> GXP61


Great thread, i read all posts.. i am exactly on the same search!!
While waiting for the ultimate *light-action-61-weighted-keys-smallfootprint-midiout-desktop-keyboard*  i recently got a GXP61 - after i read some good reviews - hoping it would at least bridge the time until some useful keyboard arrives.

The GXP action feelds quite good. And like you, I noticed some velocity difference between white and black keys but this i could tolerate. Other drawbacks are the unnecessary Nektarine buttons i will never use and the Tempo/Data poti which does not send any CC making the footprint on my desk bigger than it could be. 
But worst of all are the loud CLACKY KEYS when releasing the keys, plus I can even hear the internal springs SQUEAK the more i play it!!!
I will probably try to open it and will fix what i can with grease/silicone and may even put on some weights on all keys.

As far as i can see the only Keyboard meets almost all my requirements is the Roland RD-64. The downside for me is that the weighted keys have supposedly a heavy action and the high second hand prices.

I suppose there is still no RD-64 alternative?
Or a semi-weighted with quiet keys?

BR, Peter


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## samphony

Just the other day I went to the studio and suddenly the c1 key on my doepfer lmk 4+ stopped working. It took me 10 min to fix it. This fatar keybed is just great and so easy to clean and for my own piece of mind I’ve just ordered two batches of key rubber replacement trigger strips if something goes wrong in the next ten years 😂


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## HCMarkus

Arturia Keylab 61 mkII


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## planist

HCMarkus said:


> Arturia Keylab 61 mkII


I read a lot of posts complaining especially about the keys, keybed and plastic action.. due to the faders, potis etc. the footprint on a desk would also be quite big....


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## HCMarkus

planist said:


> I read a lot of posts complaining especially about the keys, keybed and plastic action.. due to the faders, potis etc. the footprint on a desk would also be quite big....


I find it lovely, solid build and great action, but opinions always vary.


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## rAC

I am wondering if anyone on this thread has tried a Hydrasynth Delux as their semi weighted controller?


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## Lunatique

I have the Nektar GXP88 and the GX61. I like both of them just fine. For their price points, they are great bangs for the buck. I just bought a GXP61 to replace the GX61 since I need another expression pedal input.


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## sostenuto

Roland A-88 MkII _ OR _ M-Audio 88 Pro ??? Not for live. portable use. 
~ $300. difference, but want 'clear' better choice !


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## Quasar

Yamaha CP series stage pianos. Got the CP33 for $500 on Reverb, and it's wonderful.


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## Grizzlymv

Jorf88 said:


> I hadn't returned to that idea... I was originally going to get an LX61+ and then I decided to get the T6 because it was apparently the more premium version. I assume the LX series would have essentially the same keybed.
> 
> I would have to find somewhere to try it in person.


Recently got the P6. Might be worth a look too if you loved the integration. From what I understand it uses a different keybed than the T series.


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