# Do exist an own way to compose for orchestra?



## lux (Sep 25, 2004)

Hi guys, 

big cosmic problem here. I'll try to explain:
I like to wrote and play some music, and I've noticed that I often (not to say always) express a certain kind of music and athmospheres. I love to do it, but recently, after my first NS subscription I was impressed by the fact most composers plays many fast tempo/action tracks.

So I reflected about it and told myself "well, this is the way i must compose or i need to compose". But honestly I cant do well, and nothing comes to my mind when I try to approach to this kind of music. I simply dont feel it mine.

Then the problem is: "have I to follow my natural way of composing or must I change myself?"

Also noticed that many movie composers are not the same.
Mostly big brass/full orchestra in J.Williams, more tender adagios in Horner and Silvestri, big banging scores in Helfman..and so on.

So maybe its normal to feel myself more close to certain feels and moods.
Am I wrong? cant find a reply.

Thanks
Luca


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 25, 2004)

Since we're being cosmic here, let me share my own views.

For composers, music is a form of communication, and in many ways, reading another's work - however great - is a lot like reading a great oratory or speech written by another person. However if we're speaking to a loved one or significant partner we don't pull out a great speech out of our back pockets - instead we speak from our hearts.

I think one of the growing pains of many composers is finding and establishing their own voice - their own style. Although John Williams compositions and orchestrations may sound great, the reality is that if big budget producers want something to sound like John Williams, more than likely they'll hire John Williams to do it rather than another composer who sounds like Williams. 

Romantic comedies and light work are equally as impressive in my opinion - it doesn't always have to be bombastic. Gabriel Yared does fantastic intricate work without having to raise the dB level to make a point. More so - Yared sounds like Yared, with his own style.

Style development isn't really taught by institutions but I believe is learned through seasoning - and I think its a crucial step for any composer to take.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 25, 2004)

Well said Frederick.
Yes, action cues are many and by the same token have a tendency to sound redundent. If it's something you are not inspired with, either leave it alone or approach it as an exercise/challenge. Or maybe try to write one from a totally different approach...
If you don't feel like forcing yourself, there are still many human emotions to be depicted in music and in film that don't require the action cue. If I had to choose only one style of film to write for for the rest of my life, I wouldn't pick action movie either. It might be fun for a few minutes but gets old quick (I'd probably pick psycho drama :wink: )


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## Herman Witkam (Sep 25, 2004)

In the stage I am, I'm not thinking about developing a certain style yet. I like to listen to as much different music as possible and I'll try to form a style of my own later. A psych. drama should be very interesting to score I think.


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## choc0thrax (Sep 25, 2004)

Don't worry, i've never succeeded in doing action music either. I'm going to try to become like Thomas Newman but without any of the talent. 

P.S. Who is "Helfman"?


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## CJ (Sep 25, 2004)

Come on Choco ... Newman had to start someplace. I'm sure he wouldn't want to start all over - that privilege is ours now. (somehow I thought that would make me feel better but...) lol


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## lux (Sep 26, 2004)

hehe...thanks for the help...
honestly I wrote that because i'm afraid I dont like writing action cues because I cant, and due to my teory skills' enormous limits.

I've noticed that most composers here that I like, usually write witha lot of ornaments, dissonant passages, clusters and so on, and maybe i feel a little frustrating because i cant. dunno if I cant because dont like or i cant because i cant achieve it. 

Luca


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 26, 2004)

Lux - much of the stuff you're describing may be found in the Equal Interval System. Our lordship Sharmy (*cha-ching Craig $  *) had worked with Spuds Murphy - a very talented and knowledgeable composer and instructor in his 90s who created EIS.

Check out the thread here:

http://www.sanctusangelis.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=119

We're currently working on a way to do this kind of instruction over the net with qualified teachers . Things are heating up so if you're interested make it known.


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## lux (Sep 26, 2004)

Frederick said:


> Lux - much of the stuff you're describing may be found in the Equal Interval System. Our lordship Sharmy (*cha-ching Craig $  *) had worked with Spuds Murphy - a very talented and knowledgeable composer and instructor in his 90s who created EIS.
> 
> Check out the thread here:
> 
> ...



Hey Frederick thanks,

youre a forum master really fast 

yeah, I've read the thread and knew about "Lord" Sharmy experience in that, but believed its a multi year course build in Usa, so unreachable for euro-italian fella like me :cry: 

Didn't know you were arranging something on the net, really amazing, please let me know what's up with that, I'll join for sure.


Luca


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 26, 2004)

ps: check your pm's lux


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## Edgen (Sep 26, 2004)

Helfman I think is Danny Elfman? 

I think that composers have worked hard throughout the years to develop a particular style of work and it's something that takes time. The style of music for a film or game all depend on the director's vision and what style he wants for the film. So, he hires someone that can produce that style. If I wanted playful, I would looking into Williams or Jeremy Soule. If I wanted sweeping epicness, I would look into Elfman or Zimmer. If I wanted an intimate piece, I would look into James Newton Howard. 

I think its safe to assume that some of the best out there can do just about anything anyone asked them to do... BUT... why go try and fix a broken sink when you can hire a plumber? I'm sure a doctor is pretty damn smart, but not practical. So, you go after a "Creative Director" who knows a little bit about everything and probably at a cheaper price. Did that analogy make sense? :shock: 

/j


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## Simon Ravn (Sep 26, 2004)

Edgen thats a very narrow way to look at it. Many composers can do many styles well. Williams, not epic? Williams not intimate? The only styles where Williams really hasnt done much (doesn't mean he can't do it, necessarily) is horror and romantic comedy. With Zimmer, he can do action and epic stuff of course, but also romantic comedy ("As good as it gets").


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## lux (Sep 26, 2004)

I'm partly agreed with Simon about Williams.
His background makes him capable of doing almost everything.
But...I also think that Williams is very "American" in his writing. The same thing that was said about Aaron Copland, who inspired a lot his work. The landscapes he describes are that way also without "blockbusters" images, and to me is a part of his own feeling. I have to admit that I love most of his works.

But I'm italian and if you look to some of composers from my country (Morricone, Nino Rota, Manuel de Sica...) they are really different in style from most U.S. composers (look at action/epic scenes from them), so it's difficult to find a line between two approaches that I love both.

After reading the replies I arrived to a personal conclusion:

We all have something in our writing that move us to a certain direction, but this is only a final issue. The harmonic capabilities a composer must have should permit him to paint about everything and to follow a personal approach. How will he take out the emotions and the landscapes is really a matter of who, when, where....

Thanks all  

Luca


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 26, 2004)

PrinceFrog said:


> i think the way they're working it is to allow europeans to participate in it online and with lessons & mp3s.



this is the goal. I am also thinking that maybe with audio via ichat or msn we might be able to do real time conferencing either by typing chat or audio or even video.


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## lux (Sep 26, 2004)

that's a great idea, Craig...I really hope it will be possible, indeed.
Chat like Msn can also use common documents, graphic boards and so on.
Please let me know of any developement.

Luca


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## Niah (Sep 26, 2004)

Hey Luca!

I totally view myself in your words, probably because I am an european myself. But that's not the point the point is that I am no good in writing action cues in a fashion hollywood way. But does that make me a limited composer?
I don't think so. I just have a different musical approach that has more to do with feeling and introspective moods.
Anyway, I am always trying and experimenting new stuff and one day I was atempting to write a classic action cue and ended up with something with thrash guitar, heavy drums, electronic elements and orchestra. 
It's not something completly new, it has been used in films like tomb raider, 60 seconds, black hawk down and SWAT. So I guess it's more of a modern aproach to scoring music in action flicks, and feel connected to that approach.
But it is always up to the film and the director.
In 1998 too war films were released - "Saving Private Ryan" and "The Thin Red Line".
Both films have a very interesting way of exploring the action scenes.
In "Saving Private Ryan", steven spielberg wanted no music at all in the fight scenes to improve the realism, and he has succeeded. So all that you heard is very calm and emotional cues for dramatic scenes by composer john williams.
On "The Thin Red Line" the fight scenes were accompanied by very calm and very up-lifting music by composer hans zimmer.
So you see, there's a number of possibilities that's why film scoring is so exciting. 
Just keep on composing and exploring and things will come your way.
The world of cinema isn't made of just hollywood action films but also of independent and european films that are focused more on your style of filme scoring - subtle emotions.

BTW: Ennio morricone and italian composers are an inspiration. 

Who can forget the amazing misture of jazz/soul/funk and bossanova from piero umiliani or Armando Trovajoli? 
Who can forget the suprisingly inovative scores to Dario Argento's Horror films from prog-rock-electronic band Goblin?
Or even the ambient-analog-electronic scores of russian filmmaker Andrei Tarkovsky films from Eduard Artemyev.

Welcome to world of film scoring, where the impossible becomes possible.


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 26, 2004)

iChat and AOL lets you send almost unlimited sizes of files - I like MSN but if I need to send larger I go to iChat


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## rJames (Sep 26, 2004)

Hi, Lux. I wanted to chime in here even though everything important has been said by others. :D I am truly just a novice so can only give you a bit of my own philosophy.

I like what Patrick said...do every style you can percieve for the experience. If you want to work, you'll probably have to do what someone else wants you to do. You will, at least, have to do what the visuals require. If you can do more styles, you'll be in a position for more work. Your responsiveness is to the director and his creative team, the producer and probably lastly to the picture. Then, and this is all conjecture, as you work, more and more of yourself gets into it. Two things (at least) are happening. You're finding your voice and you're getting better at expressing it (that's one thing) and your clients will give you more and more freedom as you succeed for them (or as your reputation grows).

I think success in this business comes from those who excel in these ways and in this order; competence in technique, awareness of a spectrum of style and lastly art (artistic individuality or greatness).

And probably before all of that the ability to create and nurture relationships.


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## Edgen (Sep 26, 2004)

Simon Ravn said:


> Edgen thats a very narrow way to look at it. Many composers can do many styles well.



ahhh no.. I think that came out wrong  I'm just saying in General. Say you just came to the table with your movie and said.. "I want a composer. Who would we pick". I know most of the guys can do anything you asked of them, but that is some of general scores and what they are used to.

You have to look at $$, availability.. Heck Simon, I think you could do just what williams does. Your A&E piece was beautiful for example. but its just unfortunate that some of those directors don't know who some of the smaller guys are just yet, and they and the studios are hesitant to use them. Its the broad scope of things is what I was referring to.

For me.. I couldn't do country music or disco if you paid me all the money in the world! 

/j


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## Chrislight (Sep 26, 2004)

Edgen said:


> For me.. I couldn't do country music or disco if you paid me all the money in the world!



Ok Justin - I guess that cool mil I was going to give you to do that remake of Waylon Jennings top hits will just have to go to another


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## Edgen (Sep 26, 2004)

heheheheh  Ya.. I would make for a cool story though.. 

"Ya kids, I gave up a million dollar project. Your daddy would buy you that four wheeler and trampoline, but you'll have to make do with your big wheel and your mom's spandex pants."

I would be happy to refer someone else to a project like that. To me, its not about the money. It's creating what you enjoy, and enjoy what you create. Hopefully others will enjoy it too and reak the benifits of sharing a weekend on his 40 ft yacht he recently purchased.

/j


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## Edgen (Sep 26, 2004)

actually.. ya know.. the more I think about it... If someone offered me a million dollars to make a track I wouldn't and couldn't do... I think its a better business decision to just hire out someone else to do it, and keep the profits. What in the world was I thinking? :oops: 

/j


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 26, 2004)

Too late Justin! Hiring the pedal steel guitarist as we speak :wink: Of course, knowing how things go they'll do a "screening" like they did with Yared and choose the Dixie Chicks to do it instead. 

On second thought - its all yours Justin. But I charge 90% finders fee


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## Edgen (Sep 26, 2004)

screw the music... I'll just do their website!! :lol:


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## Scott Cairns (Sep 26, 2004)

I've often wondered if some composers get typecast like an actor along the way. It might be that the score they did for one particular project got a lot of attention (maybe because of the project more than score the too) and suddenly everyone wanted THAT sound. 

The starving composer had the opportunity to do regular gigs and paid work and just went with it. 

But I dont rule out the innate ability that we all have as composers that makes us better in some styles over others.

And to address the "Action music" issue just briefly, I think it is one of the easier styles to write, I take my hat off to people like Sharmy and Aaron that have intricate evolving pieces of music with counterpoint and the like.

A very simple way to write action music I think, is to simply play a chord on your keyboard, say a major triad. Start jamming with it creating a rhythm and throwing in a sus 4th or a 6th along the way.....

Then, spread that voicing out over the orchestra. Re-inforce it with snares, bass drums, timpani and toms. 

I know thats a VERY simple example, but you really can write a lot of simple action music this way. Focus primarily on brass, strings and percussion and make it LOUD! :D


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## DeOlivier (Sep 28, 2004)

Frederick said:


> Lux - much of the stuff you're describing may be found in the Equal Interval System. Our lordship Sharmy (*cha-ching Craig $  *) had worked with Spuds Murphy - a very talented and knowledgeable composer and instructor in his 90s who created EIS.
> 
> Check out the thread here:
> 
> ...



Sounds very promising. Good private music lessons are very hard to find here in Austria, so please let me know if you succeed in making this course available via the net.


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## Ed (Dec 18, 2004)

choc0thrax said:


> Don't worry, i've never succeeded in doing action music either. I'm going to try to become like Thomas Newman but without any of the talent.
> 
> P.S. Who is "Helfman"?



hehe. I reckon newman can do Action 

Ed


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