# Blatant Copyright Infringement



## BenG (Jun 9, 2013)

So I just got a gig doing music for a commercial and the director sent me the video with a temp track. This is not a real problem as sometimes if gives me an idea of what he wants. 

Naturally, I gather from the music he placed (by a famous composer might I add) that he wanted some epic music to accompany his commercial. I wrote something that definetly fit his vision and matched the same feeling as the temp music. 

Him and the producer said they really liked it and began to give me preliminary notes for revisions. To my surprise, every single suggestion/change was to copy the original temp track, verbatim. And blatantly as well, "I want it to sound like the **** piece here so add this, basically having me copy someone else's music. 

I've dealt with alot of film makers with "temp track love" but this was something else. This was flat out stealing!! What am I supposed to do?! Asking me for that "Inception style brass braaam" was a last straw before I really got annoyed. 

I explain to him that it was copyright infringement and is of course illegal, on the off chance he did not know. Still no reply...

What am I supposed to say?!?!

Sorry, just venting


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## wst3 (Jun 9, 2013)

I think you did the right thing.

I understand the unintended effect where a director can become so accustomed to a temp track that it is all they can hear. It's a problem, and probably not going away.

But when someone asks you to do an out-and-out copy of the temp track they've stepped over the line.

Your only real choices are:
1) do what they ask - not appealing on any level.
2) say "no", politely of course, and with a polite explanation - sounds like you already did that.

And then you wait. The director may appreciate your candor, and realize that perhaps they became too accustomed to the temp track, and reward you lavishly.

OR...

"you'll never work in this town again" - which of course never really happens, but it is something everyone worries about.

Most likely this director won't hire you again, and that's probably the best outcome you can hope for.

Very sorry you had this run in...


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## windshore (Jun 9, 2013)

Tell your director that it's your ass on the line if you get sued.

I think a lot of us are forced to walk this line. So long as your piece hits the timings that are so near and dear to the director, and if he likes the general esthetic, you'll have to resist because you literally can't AFFORD to cross that line.

The alternative: Tell him you can only make those types of changes if he's willing to hire a top musicologist to assess whether you're violating copyright (expensive), and he's willing to be liable even after it passes the musicologist's assessment. (- though, unless you have a great lawyer, you'd probably still ultimately be liable.)


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## BenG (Jun 9, 2013)

I understand that directors can get attached to temp tracks, makes sense, but Asking me to rip off a well known composer note by note really crosses the line. In the email I sent I let him know that I might get sued, and would be liable. 

And I don't think I woudk ever be able to steal a fellow composers work. I don't think I have to worry about "you'll never work in this town again" as he is not a well known director but rather someone just starting. Maybe I don't work with him again yes, but what is the alternative? Copyright infringement?

I let him know and explained to him the issue of what he was asking for. The solace I can take is perhaps be did not know that it was...?

Thank you for your kind support! Really makes me feel better as this is the first time anything like this has happened to me.


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## dgburns (Jun 9, 2013)

as I mentioned in another thread,this happens often with newbie directors.You mentioned that.

I think you handled it well enough,but I might add one single advice-

don't do the heavy lifting in an email.Try to talk to them in a face to face meeting,or by good ol phone so you can hear his tone as he objects to what you're suggesting.That way you can argue your case a little better.

email is a dangerous form of communication,because like forum posting,so much can be misinterpreted.

imho as always.


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## BenG (Jun 9, 2013)

Thank you for the advice. Face to face woudk be hard as I am working remotely (LA/Montreal), but perhaps a phone call or Skype would be best as you had suggested.

He was also giving some other confusing notes like "I want it to be chamber-like" and then a line later asking "here's where I want the inception style brass!! And then guitar and choir!"

:/


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## Rctec (Jun 9, 2013)

There really is only one big problem: as the composer you usually have to indemnify them against any legal claims. So, the only person that can really get sued is you. That's why they don't care. But you should!


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 9, 2013)

I am having exactly the same problem on a movie I has been asked to work on.

I have arranged a meeting with the director, producer and the composer. On Tuesday, I will inform them about the legal problems as well as artistic. I plan to write some music to picture which will hopefully get them outside the zone. 

There is no way they can indemnify you of any legal obligations - if you knowingly copy, you will be sued.

But more than getting sued, this is an artistic problem. As a musician, copying blatantly is just plain wrong and a single law suit from Hollywood will destroy these film makers and the film itself in no time.

I am bowing out if they do not understand this.

Gives me more time to practice!


Tanuj.


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## BenG (Jun 9, 2013)

Rctec @ Sun Jun 09 said:


> There really is only one big problem: as the composer you usually have to indemnify them against any legal claims. So, the only person that can really get sued is you. That's why they don't care. But you should!



This seems to be the prevailing sentiment throughout this process. No one will look out for you or frankly cares if you are liable. Hence, it is important to stand your ground and make it clear that you will not copy another person's work. Especially such a fine score as yours, Rctec.

@Tanuj, I'm sorry to hear about that and I agree that the only thing you can do is let them know what you think and let them decide how to proceed, with of without you. I hope your meeting goes well.


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## germancomponist (Jun 9, 2013)

BenG @ Sun Jun 09 said:


> This seems to be the prevailing sentiment throughout this process. No one will look out for you or frankly cares if you are liable. Hence, it is important to stand your ground and make it clear that you will not copy another person's work. Especially such a fine score as yours, Rctec.



Huh? They hired you because they thought you are the man who is able to copy his scores?


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## Mike Greene (Jun 9, 2013)

Good advice all around, although your client should understand that they can be sued also, not just you. An angry copyright owner is under no obligation to sue you instead of them. They're not bound by any contracts between you and your client, so they're gonna sue whoever has the deepest pockets.

All that an indemnity clause does is say that you have to defend your client in this suit. But unless you have the cash to pay for this defense, as well as the judgment, then the bulk will still be paid for by your client. Happens all the time. I know a guy who licensed a bad song song for a commercial, the agency got sued and settled for $160k. All the agency could get out of this guy in terms of reimbursement was $25k, even though he was 100% at fault and even though there was an indemnity clause.

So although your ass is on the line, they shouldn't be thinking they're gonna get off scott free if the s*** hits the fan. (Unless you happen to be very wealthy and *can* pay hundreds of thousands of dollars.)

I wouldn't be surprised if you *haven't* signed an indemnity clause on this, by the way. A lot of clients aren't all that savvy. Even on gigs I've done with major studios, I've managed to sneak by without it a few times.


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## BenG (Jun 9, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sun Jun 09 said:


> BenG @ Sun Jun 09 said:
> 
> 
> > This seems to be the prevailing sentiment throughout this process. No one will look out for you or frankly cares if you are liable. Hence, it is important to stand your ground and make it clear that you will not copy another person's work. Especially such a fine score as yours, Rctec.
> ...



I woudknt say that but perhaps. I got the gig after sending in a short demo that was different entirely but had the same feeling. At its most basic level, epic, heroic, etc. you can listen to my style on Soundcloud it is nothing like Zimmer's style (with the utmost respect) and clearly the original demo was something of my own and purely original. 

But then the client asked to add in a "synth arpeggio" and "guitar", change this bar, have this chord here, inception "braaam" there, etc. 

So they like my original (or so I thought) only to have me chane everything one by one to make it sound like Hans' score!! Ridiculous, at the time it kind of made me sick to my stomach.

@Mike, that is a very good point. Being a student my pockets are anything but deep in any sense of the word and I will speak to them and let them know that I am not the only one who risks being sued. 

Once again thank you to everyone for your support and help! I really appreciate it.


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## germancomponist (Jun 9, 2013)

BenG @ Sun Jun 09 said:


> But then the client asked to add in a "synth arpeggio" and "guitar", change this bar, have this chord here, inception "braaam" there, etc.



I would like to know who is your client..... .


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## BenG (Jun 9, 2013)

It's two no name clients so it wouldn't be anyone you know anyway. But I never give that information out without letting them defend themselves first, I am still awaiting a reply.


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## dgburns (Jun 9, 2013)

Ben,maybe the question that needs answering here is-

why did you get into composing in the first place?

seems to me to blaze your own trail,no? i did.i am fiercely original.gets me into trouble all the time.I just never thought about getting into writing music with the explicit idea of ripping off others.I suspect the same for you and everyone else on this forum.

i find ways around the temp love argument.I might say" that cue is great,but we can do so much better for your project because the cue was never intended for your vision or specific circumstance."that usually gets the responce,...."well,what would YOU do?"....then I know I have their ear....

be Original.there is no glory copying others.legal issues aside.


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## BenG (Jun 9, 2013)

Exactly. I did do something different and original but the client literally told me "that sounds good but we want it to be more like the **** piece" 

I always strive to do something that is my own, and although I am just starting I can tell and hear that my style is definitely developing into something unique and personal.

Don't get me wrong, I've worked isth temp tracks and I have never had a problem them like this before, hence my shock.


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## reneS (Jun 9, 2013)

That made my day: ... a chamber-like inception style brass ...

This is the point where I would ask the director whether he is willing to do a complete buyout and sign as the composer, taking the full risk for what he wants to do. 
If that doesnt make him think, run.


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## MichaelL (Jun 9, 2013)

You've got to love this forum! BenG quotes his client, "here's where I want the inception style brass!! And then guitar and choir!" And then, Hans answers in the next post!

@windshore...no need for a musicologist's analysis. The legal test is what the _average listener_ hears. If the average listener says "hey, that sounds like Inception, then BenG has a problem, no matter how many differences a musicologist can point out. Don't make me find the case law. I think it was Campbell Acuff v. 2Live Crew. Publisher, Campbell Acuff, sued 2Live Crew over their version of Roy Orbison's "Pretty Woman." ...might also be in the the case against George Harrison, over My Sweet Lord.

It seems very doubtful to me that the commercial fit any of the exceptions to the law, like parody. 

Additionally, given the magnitude of inceptions popularity, and I quite sure that Mr. Zimmer can easily prove the value, what he charges to license a cue, the damages would easily be provable, and I'm guessing would also meet the 75K threshold to get into federal court.

I would gracefully decline this one. Plus, you may want to tell your client that Mr. Zimmer is now aware of the pending / potential infringement. And BTW, this thread would be admissible in court, and most likely considered an "admission."

Good luck,
Michael

Edit: I see that you're in Canada. You would most likely end up defending yourself in US Federal court in LA. Add travel expenses to your defense.


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## BenG (Jun 9, 2013)

reneS @ Sun Jun 09 said:


> That made my day: ... a chamber-like inception style brass ...



Yes, that's what I was thinking. What am I supposed to say when he wants both when really it can be either or; Chamber or Epic, but not both.

It's also very clear that an epic piece that builds would work perfectly, but he seems to be stuck on little things that don't make sense.


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## BenG (Jun 9, 2013)

MichaelL @ Sun Jun 09 said:


> You've got to love this forum! BenG quotes his client, "here's where I want the inception style brass!! And then guitar and choir!" And then, Hans answers in the next post!
> 
> @windshore...no need for a musicologist's analysis. The legal test is what the _average listener_ hears. If the average listener says "hey, that sounds like Inception, then BenG has a problem, no matter how many differences a musicologist can point out. Don't make me find the case law. I think it was Campbell Acuff v. 2Live Crew. Publisher, Campbell Acuff, sued 2Live Crew over their version of Roy Orbison's "Pretty Woman." ...might also be in the the case against George Harrison, over My Sweet Lord.
> 
> ...



I am speaking with them tomorrow and hopefully that would clear some things up for both parties. I do admit having Hans see and reply to this thread definitely makes me feel better and that I did the right thing. 

On a moral and legal front, I can't ever see stealing someone's work.

@MichaelL, Glad I can make your day I couldn't make this stuff up lol Although, I would like to hear some Hans chamber music with 12 horn players mixed in. Ah, one can dream


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## Mike Greene (Jun 9, 2013)

MichaelL @ Sun Jun 09 said:


> I think it was Campbell Acuff v. 2Live Crew. Publisher, Campbell Acuff, sued 2Live Crew over their version of Roy Orbison's "Pretty Woman."


Not that it has any bearing on this thread, but it's worth noting that 2 Live Crew prevailed in the U.S. Supreme Court on that one.


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## reddognoyz (Jun 9, 2013)

I have definitely been asked to copy tracks, in fact tomorrow I'm going into to write a track in which the client initially asked me to directly copy a song. Fortunately in this case the melodic idea is so broad and so simple that I'm pretty confident I can write this track without having to dance around the issue or do a "sideways" of the song. 

When I've been pressured to do this I have occasionally said sure just email me and tell me you want me to make a version of this song For your TV commercial, or what have you. You guys can deal with the licensing of the song I'll make it 30 seconds long okay? No one's taking me up on that one yet ha ha. 

My partner is an ex, or is he likes to put it, recovering television commercial producer And we have a strict no rip off policy, And we are up front with our clients on that. We won't dance along that line at all. I do say that I will be able to get you the emotional import that the piece of music you like, But once the question is asked, Especially if it's a temp track exists already the can of worms is already open and we can't go anywhere near it.


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## Mike Greene (Jun 9, 2013)

reddognoyz @ Sun Jun 09 said:


> \Especially if it's a temp track exists already the can of worms is already open and we can't go anywhere near it.


That's a good point. Even worse is if the client approached the copyright owners already trying to get permission and were denied. At that point, you're pretty much begging to be sued if you try to come even remotely close.

When Ray Parker Jr. got sued for "Ghost Busters" being too close to Huey Lewis' "I Want a New Drug," I originally thought it was a lame suit. Sorta close, but not close enough to be infringement, to my ears. But then it turned out Huey Lewis had been previously approached by the film producers about licensing the song. Ray Parker Jr. didn't stand a chance at that point.

This reminds me of another point worth considering - Certain projects are _more_ likely to get sued, and certain projects are _less_ likely. That's not to say you should be careless or unoriginal, but if this is a small independent film or some other low profile gig, the truth is that it's not worth the effort for someone to sue you. So you do have a little leeway there. Again, I'm not suggesting you rip songs off, but it's worth knowing.


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## MichaelL (Jun 10, 2013)

Mike Greene @ Sun Jun 09 said:


> MichaelL @ Sun Jun 09 said:
> 
> 
> > I think it was Campbell Acuff v. 2Live Crew. Publisher, Campbell Acuff, sued 2Live Crew over their version of Roy Orbison's "Pretty Woman."
> ...




Hi Mike. 
That is correct. The 2Live Crew verison of Pretty Woman was found to fall within one, or more, of the exceptions to infringement. In that case, I believe that the 2Live Crew lyrics were considered to be a parody, and/or to expand upon the original with social commentary or criticism. 

Within a case you follow the court's reasoning to see how the law would apply to other cases. In the instance of BenG's add, unless he made the music cartoony, over-the-top and out Hansed Hans with EPIC EPICNESS, parody might not apply.

The whole add should to be taken in context to detemine whether it's serious, or merely poking fun at EPICNESS. If they're serious and just creating a clone of a cue that they couldn't afford to license, they are making a 6-figure mistake.

Cheers,
Michael


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## guydoingmusic (Jun 10, 2013)

You can't leave this one out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoArTZNA5F8


:D


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## reddognoyz (Jun 10, 2013)

my 2 experiences with getting almost sued.

A) For Nick At Night, and with full complicity with NAN. I used the Rawhide theme and used the lyrics
"turn it on,! tune it in!, turn it on,! tune it in!, turn it up Nick at Night!" 

The visual was a copy of the open to the tv show Bonanza, so the daughter of the guy who wrote the Bonanza theme(not the Rawhide theme that I had directly and gleefully ripped off) went after Nick at Night a little, so NAN pulled off the air..... then after a bit put it back on. they didn't really care.

B) I was asked to do a sideways of a Christmas song the carpenters covered, and was used for the temp track. I said, no I won't., I wrote a completely different melody with a completely different chord structure, though admittedly just simplistic as the original. 

BUT, and this is where it goes all wrong for me, I used a very, very similar instrumentation, as close as I could make it.

Again the daughter of the composer called up the company that made the product, they called up my client, the ad agency, and the ad agency called me. Lawyers were called. I spoke directly to the music lawyer and he said the exact same things Hans said. "If you get a bunch of shlubs in a room and they all it think it sounds like the other track, you gotta problem. We agree to change the track to an arraignment of Jingle bells. The end.

The time I really shoulda gotten sued but it was so fun we did it anyway.

Again for Nick at Night: Hyping an I Love Lucy marathon ( my guess is an actual viewership of 14 people 6 of where sleeping, the rest must've been clinically dead) we ripped off Led Zepplin's Whole Lotta Love rebranded to Whole Lotta Lucy. We hired a singer from Long Island's premier LED Zep tribute band and re-purposed the verses to espouse greatness of Lucy, and in the chorus we replaced the signature guitar slide after "wanna whole of love" with Lucy's signature "waaah" it was great! it was funny, it was fun, it was completely unauthorized. The producers boss approached him after a few days and said "Hey!, you can't do that!" and it was yanked off the air.... then they put it back on behind the exec's back, they really didn't care......


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## reddognoyz (Jun 10, 2013)

found the lucy spot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RaJIDNMeK0


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## madbulk (Jun 10, 2013)

Love the use of lucy "whaaaah's" at the end.


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## Hannes_F (Jun 10, 2013)

Ban temp music. Seriously.



reneS @ Sun Jun 09 said:


> That made my day: ... a chamber-like inception style brass ...



Directors, composers ... they all say chamber and then it turns out they really want epic but for a chamber price. Haha.


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