# My first Orchestral session! AKA I need your help in balancing!



## arielblacksmith (Mar 30, 2015)

Hello Everyone !

Im preparing the score for my first orchestral session (gasp!) and well, I may or may not know much about orchestral balancing -

This is what im trying to make it sound like:

https://soundcloud.com/ariel-juarez-3/n ... ral-mockup

For those spanish speaking people, you may like the fact that instead of Latin or ah and oh,s the choirs sings in spanish =)


Im going to use the 99 dollar orchestra, which goes as follows:

1 Flute
1 oboe
1 clarinet (not used)
1 bassoon

4 french horns
2 trumpets
2 trombones
1 bass trombone

5 violin I
4 violin II
3 violas
4 cellos
1 bass

And heres the first version of the score that would be used.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o5404xpbeff3n ... t.pdf?dl=0

Random considerations and toughts about the score:

I studied a bit the ninth symphony score (The ios app is excelent!) and saw that 2 woodwinds could project over big ensembles with the right dynamic and articulations from both melody and harmony (the score I studied used a 50 ensemble strings) so would the oboe/flute would be heard in mf/f even with the strings being at f/ff??

Same about the horns and trumpets, I saw that the beethoven score uses a pretty similar brass section, but with way more strings. So Im thinking of just using 2 french horns and ditching 2 of them. 

would the 2 trombones and bass trombone (at mf dynamic) along with cellos ,bass and bassoon be enough to provide the solid harmonic foundation, or would that be overkill for the orchestra size?

Should I maybe not worry too much about it, and solve minor volume issues in mixing??

any other issue/problem you see in the score?

The choir was a rough bounce from the recording session, im gonna receive the stems in the next weeks and mix it along with the recoriding of the orchestra. im excited!! :D 


Thanks in advance and really appreciate your help, this community has helped me lots in the short time I have been here. have a good day!


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## RiffWraith (Mar 30, 2015)

Hi.

First off, good luck with the session. It is of course, up to you, but I am sure I am one of many who would love to hear the end result.

If you have never recorded with an orchestra before (which I am assuming based on your thread title) your best bet is to send the cue to an experienced orchestrator, telling him/her the section sizes. It may not be in your budget, but if it is, I can recommend Thomas Bryla, a member of this forum.

If you can't hire an orchestrator, do the best you can (hopefully you will get some good advice here from those familiar with this sized orchestra) and chalk it up to a learning experience - regardless of the outcome. This really is the best way to learn.

Also, see if they can give you stems. That will help a lot.

Cheers.


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## JohnG (Mar 30, 2015)

I suggest you take Jeffrey's advice and get an experienced orchestrator to comment on it.

PM me if you would like some suggestions.


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## iaink (Mar 30, 2015)

Good luck with your session. This is an excellent way to start learning. In my opinion that's a tricky balance of instruments to work with … brass-heavy against a relatively small string section (except for the celli) and small wind section … but perhaps this is a sign of the "epic" times.

A couple of technical notes:

Some of the slurs on your upper string lines are too long. An 8-beat slur at fortissimo… shorten them to make sure you get the power you are after. Ties on whole notes are OK – the players will make bow changes automatically. However on a melodic line you need to mark the slurs properly otherwise you will lose time.

CB needs to be written as 8vb.

Regarding your question about winds, against fortissimo strings, your forte oboe will come through as a colour at section B, but not as a solo voice.

Sections where you have the upper strings in octaves, I would normally put the vln-2 and vla on the same line with the vln-1 8va ... to give more stability to the lower line. Especially since you are approaching the upper range of the vla.

In the context of these section sizes and what you have written, you might as well use the 4 horns if you are paying for them. You will get slightly more power in that staccato call and answer section provided it's performed properly. Rule of thumb you need 2 horns to balance the power of 1 trumpet or 1 trombone.

In general, you are using most of the orchestral resources at forte or fortissimo for your whole cue. Therefore I would not expect much change in colour or power for the duration of the cue.

Nice melody. Good luck!


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## arielblacksmith (Mar 31, 2015)

Thanks for the input! Checking right now about the orchestrators.

About the slurs, that slipped my mind, it makes perfect sense now that you told me. will work on that 

the score is in concert pitch, being the bass a transposing instrument, is the 8vb a reminder or thats how it usually its written??

yeah, i imagined the oboe as a color, not a voice.

Gotta rework it a bit. thanks!


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## iaink (Mar 31, 2015)

arielblacksmith @ Tue Mar 31 said:


> the score is in concert pitch, being the bass a transposing instrument, is the 8vb a reminder or thats how it usually its written??



Contrabass is always written an octave above even on a concert score.


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## WhiteNoiz (Apr 1, 2015)

Pay some more attention to the tidiness of the sheet. Some markings and lines overlap at parts (especially on the last page). It may not seem like much, but personally I'd be irritated if I was given a score that looked like that. And that would translate into the music. You want to make the players feel comfortable.

The "arco" on the string parts of the first page is redundant. Especially when you have staccato markings right after the dynamic marking.

Sometimes it's the little things that make it or break it. Try to avoid unnecessary confusion.

Also, I'm not sure about the 16ths on the brass (especially the trombones). I feel like tonguing techniques will be utilised at every second set (second beat) of notes, so the staccato at the end may not sound as crisp or separated as you'd expect it to. And they may get tired since it's at an f marking and moderately fast. Even if they can pull staccatos with separate breaths they may sound sluggish.

That's my feeling of course. Someone more experienced may disagree.


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## snattack (Apr 1, 2015)

When's the deadline? I've written several hundred orchestrations for different sizes of ensembles, and I'd be happy to help, but I'm abroad right now, back this weekend. I can take a look at it next week. I'm missing teaching since going full-time freelance orchestrator =)


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## arielblacksmith (Apr 1, 2015)

Thanks Whitenoiz! il tidy it up and check the other things you said.

snattack, the session is until may and we have to send scores in april (no deadline yet) so yeah I still have time, every bit of help is greatly appreciated, thanks!


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## snattack (Apr 8, 2015)

arielblacksmith @ Wed Apr 01 said:


> Thanks Whitenoiz! il tidy it up and check the other things you said.
> 
> snattack, the session is until may and we have to send scores in april (no deadline yet) so yeah I still have time, every bit of help is greatly appreciated, thanks!



P.M me.


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## Daryl (Apr 8, 2015)

To echo what has been said above, there are a few things that need sorting out and lots of small things that will waste time of the session.However, 15 minutes with an orchestrator peppering you with questions and making suggestions will save a lot of time and improve the piece dramatically. Don't go it alone...!

D


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## Guffy (Apr 8, 2015)

The guys at the 99 dollar orchestra also has a in-house orchestrator. I asked them about this a while back, and got a pretty nice quote. 

But i'm sure alot of the good folks here at the forum would do a good job with it aswell 

Good Luck!


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## snattack (Apr 8, 2015)

Hi!

Sorry for asking you to P.M me, it's just that I tend to forget stuff, and it was easier remembering looking at this with a message blinking.

First of all: congratulations! I remember my first orchestral session a couple of years ago, it was a fantastic experience, but most of all, it's in a session where all problems will be apparent, so prepare yourself for a different result than expected. Even though I've written several hundred orchestrations, only a few sounded exactly as I anticipated all the way through the piece, it's also very dependent on the room, the studio and the musicians.

I've taken a quick look at the score, it could take hours saying a lot of stuff, so it'd be nice if people here in the forum would add some stuff I've missed.

First of all, there are some obvious stuff to point out:


1. CORRECT NOTATION/LAYOUT. This is ABSOLUTELY the most important part before the session, that everything is correct. That there are no collitions between text, no wrong clefs, etc.

The mantra is simple: TIME IS MONEY. Any questions raised in the studio takes time from the recording = you pay for people asking questions instead of an extra take, rehearsal time, etc. Therefore, even something that seems simple could take a minute or two, and too many of those simple questions could take up a huge part of the recording time. It also creates frustration among musicians when stuff aren't working instantly.

In that sense there are some obvious "flaws" in the score as I see when looking through it quick:

- Write the tempo as "Maestoso QUARTERNOTE = 130" (where as Quarternote actually represents a real quarter note, not in text form =). I'm sure it works this way, but it's not common, and it could - in theory - mean 8:th = 130. Again: eliminate question.

- Remove the (1) from Flute, Oboe, Bassoon, Bass Trombone, the numbers in paranthesis from Violin I, II, Vla, Vcl, Cb.

- DYNAMICS (f, mf, cresc, dim, etc) are always written UNDER the system. INSTRUCTIONS are always written above. Therefore: instructions like "arco" should be written above. Arco in bar 1 actually isn't necessary writing if it hasn't been pizz before, so you should remove it entirely.

The espressivo is under debate: I always write it above the system since I'm of the opinion that it is an instruction of how to play, but some argue it to be part of the dynamics and write it under. I'd write it above if I were you. But some people disagree.

- Contrabass is written so that it sounds one octave lower than written. The lowest note on a regular Cb is the E under the system (written E1), but most bass players today has an extention allowing them to the C1 below the system. But as it's written now, it's written one octave to low, and that's going to make the bass players angry =)

- I wouldn't write "Oboe enters" and "Brass staccatos", "Grande finale" and other stuff that's just unnecessary information for the musicians, but I know some people put a lot of that kind of "moody" stuff. Guess it's a matter of taste, I like "less is more": write stuff that matters. Skip the rest.

- Use double bar lines at every place where you feel there's a "new section" in the music. I'd put them at A, maybe B & C, defenitely at D.

- In letter D, put sempre stacc above the system. But remove the staccato note, it's confusing to write "play staccato all the time" and put staccato dots on just some of the notes. Going to raise questions. If you don't want staccato on all notes, you can write two bars of example, and then write "simile" in bar 3. But I guess you want stacc. on everything, at least if sounds like that from the mockup.

- On some places the dynamics are all over the place. An example is bar 27-28 in strings (dim. much higher than the fff), bar 37, bar 45, etc. It should be written directly under the notehead where it starts, cresc/dim shoud line up.

- It's not necessary to repeat the dynamics all the time. You're writing f several times in a row in the brass section: first bar 1, then bar 5, then bar 29, then bar 37, etc. It's enough just writing f in the beginning and then let them play that, at least in music of this type. If there's been a long pause, then it's be good writing the f as a reminder again, but not as it looks now i.m.o.

- Generally, when it comes to dynamics, there are two philosofies:
a) Write tutti dynamics ("I want this part to feel like f, so I write f in all instruments") or 
b) Individual dynamics ("I want the violins to be slightly less obvious here compared to the horns, so I write the violins in mf and the horns in f")

I tend to - as much as possible - using opt. A if I'm not after special effects, high level of details in the orchestration, dim/cresc. in phrases, etc. It depends on how "broad brushes" the music has, and i.m.o music of this kind has VERY broad brushes, and doesn't need that level of detail. Therefore, I wouldn't use fff in violins and ff in basses/vcl, I'd simply write ff in the entire string section (there's actually a debate wether it's possible to play fff or not =). It's still an idea writing ff in violins and f in the brass i.m.o, string players sometimes tend to play "to nice" if not whipped with some extra power 

- Write the bar numbers in the score centered, under the lowest system, at every bar, inside a ring, box or at least with BIG letters. Microscopic-sized bar numbers creates communication issues between the conductor and the musicians. 

- HORNS - VERY IMPORTANT: You have to specify how many horns are playing. If you only write notes in Horn 1/2, then only Horn 1 is going to play, if you don't write the instruction "a2." above. Also, it's quite low in the beginning, you should consider using bass clef there.

- If the orchestra is playing with a click track, make sure you get details of how to prepare this (how many precount bars, etc), or if they're going to use you percussion as backtrack.


2. ORCHESTRATION

- The Basses alone won't be able to hold up the bass notes in the string section i.m.o. Contrabasses aren't that powerful. Therefore you should consider moving the octave melodies from letter B to Vln1/2 playing in octaves, the cello part to Vla and let Cello/Cb play in octaves. That's generally how you write it: Vln 1/2 in octaves and Violas unison with Vln II, or an octave lower than Vln II, or doing other stuff. (all orchestrators: feel free to bash me on this, I'm expecting artillery on this kind of generalisation =)

- This is a matter of taste: I wouldn't have written an "almost identical" line in Oboe compared to the string section. Either let the oboe do something of it's own or write it unison or parallell with the strings.

- I'd consider doubling the "chords" in the cello into horns in several parts of the score.

- Why aren't you using the clarinet? The woodwinds are MUCH weaker than the rest of the orchestra, and if you want a w.w-line to come forward, everyone needs to play it unis/in octaves depending on the timbre you're after.

- There are tons of stuff to say about this orchestration that needs deeper dwelling, but I think it's better for you to make the music as you like it and find of out the end result became. Best way to learn is trial and error, it's just that some unnecessary errors are good eliminating before the session. In the end it all comes down to estethiques, how we'd like it to sound, and some people surely won't prefer the sound I do and vice versa.


3. LAYOUT/CORRECTION READING

- I cannot stress this enough: make sure the score and the parts LOOK GOOD. Go to the library and rent/borrow a full score and the parts, compare the page sizes, the size of the notes, print it on your printer. There's absolutely nothing worse for an orchestrator to deliver ugly parts to the musicians, they're going to think you're an amateur (speaking from experience, both as a conductor and as the one delivering ugly scores). A good looking score isn't judged, a bad looking one is, and needs to "prove itself" in a unnecessary way to be accepted.

- Also make sure that page turns work as smoothly as possible. That there's AT LEAST a one bar break in the last system on the page in this tempo.

- IMPORTANT: make sure that bar numbers in Score and Parts match, I've done too many rehearsals where at least 25% of the time (and I'm not joking) went to just orienting around in the score due to problems with bar numbers.

Finally: some of the stuff I've mentioned above doesn't necessarily apply in a studio where there's an option to fix stuff with the mix. But if you've orchestrated as close as possible to what would work without microphones, mixers and other luxuries, then it will only sound better in the studio.

GOOD LUCK! You've going to have a great time =)

EDIT: Forgot one thing about the Horns: when writing for 4 horns, they are playing a 4 parts harmony in this order:

Horn 1
Horn 3
Horn 2
Horn 4.

Therefore, the chords in letter D and forward should be written as chords and doubled in both parts (ex. Bar 29: Horn 1+3 playing D, Horn 2+4 playing B). Also, now Horn 1/2 is playing the lower note, and Horn 3/4 is playing the higher note.

AND ONE MORE THING: Check so that the transposition in Horns matches the sounding score. Horns parts are written one 5:th above the score. Notation programs like Finale & Sibelius fixes this by itself, but I can't see which software you've used for this.


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## arielblacksmith (Apr 8, 2015)

Thanks a lot Andreas! quite a lot of information to process, but il take the challenge, some quick questions :

I did considered a lot putting horns with cellos, but feared that the 4 horns would overpower the ensemble, should I write them at mf , use only 2 while they are in chords or what would you recommend?

About the "Oboe enters" as a musician that performed in musicals there were many indications like that in our sheet music, and since the nature of musicals is of many dialogues and lots of music fx, personally it helped me to follow through, do you think in an orchestral setting it is unnecesarry information?

im considering maybe using the woodwinds more in a "ear candy" (thats what they told me some people called, flourishes, trills, run kind of things) rather than lines, since the main melody is being occupied by strings+ Chorus maybe they could be used for the finishing touches. what do you think?

And well, I got many work to do in the score now ! thank you for your huge post and time!


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## snattack (Apr 8, 2015)

arielblacksmith @ Wed Apr 08 said:


> Thanks a lot Andreas! quite a lot of information to process, but il take the challenge, some quick questions :
> 
> I did considered a lot putting horns with cellos, but feared that the 4 horns would overpower the ensemble, should I write them at mf , use only 2 while they are in chords or what would you recommend?



In that case, yes. When horns are used for background/pedal notes/gluing stuff together it's better to write them down dynamically. You're right here, I'd use 2 horns instead of 4 if it's only background. The old rule from our friend Rimsky Korsakow mentions the dynamic rule 1 trp = 2 horns = 4 flutes in mf. Even if that doesn't work in all areas, it's certainly works as a guide.

Great orchestration book btw, you should read it, you can find it for free here:

http://imslp.org/wiki/Principles_of_Orc ... Nikolay%29



arielblacksmith @ Wed Apr 08 said:


> About the "Oboe enters" as a musician that performed in musicals there were many indications like that in our sheet music, and since the nature of musicals is of many dialogues and lots of music fx, personally it helped me to follow through, do you think in an orchestral setting it is unnecesarry information?



In that case: yes, I agree, I've orchestrated musicals as well, and it's more common to use as a guide there. When there are tons of irregularities in the music, that kind of guides are helpful. But in this case: no. The music is in 4/4 and the Oboe doesn't have a solo role, so it can in fact be confusing if the musicians are expecting something very special from the oboe and it doesn't make any solo apperance. So I stick by what I've said: I wouldn't use it here. Not brass staccatos either, nor any other info of that kind. Maybe some people disagree, I don't know.



arielblacksmith @ Wed Apr 08 said:


> im considering maybe using the woodwinds more in a "ear candy" (thats what they told me some people called, flourishes, trills, run kind of things) rather than lines, since the main melody is being occupied by strings+ Chorus maybe they could be used for the finishing touches. what do you think?



There are 5 main ways of using W.W:
1. Harmony (in soft parts)
2. Amplifying the main melody
3. Fills to push the music forward/make it alive (what you refer to as "ear candy")
4. Solo
5. Unison lines (pedal notes, obligate)

The choice here depends on what you're after in each passage of the music. If you use this as guide lines, think through what you'd want the w.w to do for you so that their apperance feels meaningful to the music. There's no definite answer here, I'd need to take a deeper look into the orchestration in that case, and I'm sorry to say that I'm stuffed with work, so I don't have the time right now =(



arielblacksmith @ Wed Apr 08 said:


> And well, I got many work to do in the score now ! thank you for your huge post and time!



N.p! Good luck.


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## arielblacksmith (Apr 17, 2015)

Update = So the 99 dollar orchestra has sent me an Email about deadline (13th of May) and format

"Scores must be delivered in both A3 (US legal) and A4 (US letter) size. Parts must be delivered in A4 (US letter) size."

How do I make sure im using this format adequately? I make the change in Finale Printer Page but notice no diference, should I try printing them and check that they look good in both A3 and A4 ??



VERSION 2 OF THE SCORE

https://soundcloud.com/ariel-juarez-3/n ... ertadasvii

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s9x1v93usmqb2 ... n.pdf?dl=0

Major Changes :

General Tidiness of the Score
Addition of Clarinet (in unison) to the woodwinds
Rewrote the Woodwinds to make more of a fill/trill/ear candy role in certain parts
Reharmonized the cello and used horns in MF as harmony before the staccatos
Reworked the dynamics 
Legato length in strings to help with forte attacks

Question I have is If I should also unleash trumpets at the end of the score for the full climax, but not sure if that would drown too much the score ( or would that be okay since its the last segment??)



Thanks to everyone who has helped me with suggestions, I truly appreciate it!


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## RiffWraith (Apr 18, 2015)

Hi - did you have an orchestrator go over this as suggested? You really should.

Looking at it real quick, there are a few things that stand out at me:

1. P.1 - the way you have your horns written is kinda funky. I am not sure how big a deal that is, but if I were you, it would say:

Horn in F 1,2
Horn in F 3, 4

- each on it's own line.

2. I think your bar #s shouldn't be there, at the top. There are people here who are more experienced than I when it comes to sheet music, but I believe it's better to have the #s at the bottom. If you look at bars 46-48 for ex., those bar #s are actually next to the notes to be played. I don't think that's a good idea.

3. At bar 29, you have _sempre stac_. Again, others know better than I, but I am pretty sure that's not correct, as you have notes later on that are NOT played stac (I see slurs); I believe that _sempre stac_ is used ONLY when the rest of the score is ALL stac. Yours isn't.

4. If I am the principle cello player, the first thing I am doing is raising my hand, and saying, "excuse me", but bar 5 - are we playing double-stops, or divisi?" These things must be marked properly before the session.

5. Usually, the two Trombones are written on the same line.

Trombone 1,2

- yours are two different lines. This will probably be ok, but you really should be sure of this.

6. You want your 4 celli and 1 bass playing ff, while the three trombones play mf? You sure that's going to work?

Just trying to help.....


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## WhiteNoiz (Apr 18, 2015)

This should be more helpful than writing it:
http://www.docdroid.net/xr3i/nuevlibrtedit.pdf.html

For the measure numbering you could use somehting like this (numbers in circles or squares above the measures):
http://s25.postimg.org/bcsyrhnun/measnubring.png

Put them at the top, middle and bottom of the score or above each section.

For the horn chords, I mean this:
http://s25.postimg.org/bquar37y7/Funky_Horns_1.png


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## arielblacksmith (Apr 19, 2015)

Thanks for this other round of Feedback!, and Yes, Thomas will look into my score for additional feedback.

il post the end result when it is finished :D

This has been a tedious but great journey!


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## matolen (Apr 19, 2015)

This has been an interesting thread to read, so thank you to all the participants.


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## pkm (Apr 19, 2015)

WhiteNoiz @ Sat Apr 18 said:


> This should be more helpful than writing it:
> http://www.docdroid.net/xr3i/nuevlibrtedit.pdf.html
> 
> For the measure numbering you could use somehting like this (numbers in circles or squares above the measures):
> ...



Bar numbers should be big and in square boxes above the strings, not at the top of the page.

The horn notation is pretty standard. Many scores put horns 1 and 3 on one staff, and 2 and 4 on the other (1 and 3 playing in unison, and 2 and 4 playing in unison). This accomplishes the same thing, but is notated differently. Both are common nowadays. 

For orchestral sessions, it is also common to make the time signatures real big so it is easier for the conductor to see. But it's not a big deal in this one because there are no meter changes.


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## WhiteNoiz (Apr 20, 2015)

pkm @ Mon Apr 20 said:


> The horn notation is pretty standard. Many scores put horns 1 and 3 on one staff, and 2 and 4 on the other (1 and 3 playing in unison, and 2 and 4 playing in unison). *This accomplishes the same thing, but is notated differently.* Both are common nowadays.



I understand but I find it completely redundant. My primary goal would be to aim for simplicity and clarity. Except if one thinks it's *that* important for the work to have the players separated like that. Frankly, it most likely wouldn't occur to me; even as an afterthought. And I find it borderline obsessive - And I'm one who pays attention to detail. Go figure!

Unless there's a more "scientific" approach? What about six horns? I'd expect them to play in pairs of two there and in a linear sequence. (2+2+2 - not 1+3, 2+4 and 5+6 or 1+4, 2+5, 3+6; My brain is hurting now) Not to mention the first pairing seems to lead to clearer voicing and usison for me. I get that it falls in some kind of form to be followed but it makes no sense to me.

What would make sense, would be to slightly bump up the dynamic/accent of the higher voice (or reduce the lower) or the outer (and/or biggest amount of) violins playing the higher voice to make it stand out more due to its thinner nature (at least on range extremes - something that players would, most likely, naturally and ethically do).

Then again, nothing's stopping me from having the inner ones do it or divide in a weird way.

Same for "a2" (without the dot). It assumes there's some "natural" diviso going on in the section when there actually isn't any. If there's a single note on the line of Horns 1/2 or 1/3 or whatever, well, duh... I want both horns to play that. If I wanted a solo horn, I'd use another staff/stem/whatever or specify that it's a solo. What's the point of grouped staffs, then?

I'd actually never thought of that in this sense. What about trumpets, then? If I have 3 and write a single held note there'd be a solo playing? Flutes (2 or 3 on the same line)? One playing? By default?? Violins are in pairs. They are on stands (mostly). They don't go 1+3, 11+15... Why would horns go like that? To "spread" the chord in some weird way? Damn, I need an audio example.

Wow, I'm weird... I'm psycho-analysing myself and thinking loudly. :oops: o 

As for the bar numbers, I can't seem to find any guideline form or source for their position (nor the huge time signatures, although I see them all the time in film scores), other than actual written scores... Maybe it's just a widely adopted habit? The example I used was actually from Sibelius' film score preset.

And a note on the woodwinds... Doubling them or writing in unisons may make sense in terms of dynamics but what about timbre and musical character?

What mostly caught my eye in this score is more the formatting/tidiness, than the actual writing.

Anyway, thanks for the extra tips to all (RiffWraith, snattack and pkm). It's a good thing to expand or add on others' points and fill in omissions and it's exciting for me to think and theorise about this stuff.

(I'm not a pro or very lucid but I think my logic is still functioning)

Cheers.


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## muk (Apr 20, 2015)

If you group the horns together they should be grouped like this: 1 and 3, 2 and 4. It's more legible and comprehensible. Here's why: horn players specialize in either high or low. The horn covers a very wide range, and the low registers need a different embouchure than the high ones. Of course every horn player can play every note on the instrument, but they are more comfortable and secure in only either high or low registers. If professional orchestras search for a horn player they'll always specify whether they need a high or a low player.
The 1. horn is high, 2. low, 3. high, 4. low etc. Now if you group horns 1 and 2 together, and 3 and 4 you'll get interlocking chords which are hard to read (stave 1 will have a high and a low note, and the same with stave 2). If you group 1 and 3, and 2 and 4 you get the higher notes in stave 1, and the lower notes in stave 2 which is easier to read.

Ariel, for that very reason you should reallocate the voices in bars 1 to 5. The horns are playing in their lowest register, which player 1 will not be comfortable in. You'll want the specialists for low registers playing these bars, which are players 2 and 4. Player 1 would probably pass it to player 4 anyway no matter what you write, but it saves you a short discussion in the horn section.


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## chibear (Apr 20, 2015)

Just from a performance perspective, and speaking for horn players, we're the happiest campers when the sheet is one line to the printed part. This could translate into time saved.

As far as high - low horns, traditionally odd numbers are high and even low, no matter the number. One exception is Brahms who actually wrote for 2 2-horn sections, 1&2 were valveless and 3&4 valved, the valved horns being more secure in the upper register and the waldhorns with a more lush sound, so 3&4 were very often higher than 1&2.

Other exceptions abound and in 'New' music festivals, anything goes for any player. Horn players have also been known to switch parts or trade lines without bothering to tell anyone, but the OP has very limited time so one line to a printed part with traditional voicing will yield the best product IMO


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## Daryl (Apr 20, 2015)

Just to add to the above, if you don't know your players well, you should always use as many conventions as possible, whether or not you think they make sense, because what you want to avoid is confusion and certainly questions will waste valuable time.

D


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## arielblacksmith (Jun 28, 2015)

UPDATE-- its been recorded!!

Thomas Bryla was the orchestrator I hired, and im very pleased with the result.

This is the Pure orchestral recording=


And this is a mixed "organic" version of it with chorus included


This is a more "less organic" version of it


Im actually having a hard time deciding which version I like best, I like a bit more the organic feel of the first, but it doesnt have the attack and edge


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## arielblacksmith (Jun 28, 2015)

....... of the brasses from the less organic(second) version. Which one do you like better?? (how do you edit a post? want to edit the first post too) 

Thanks in advance, it was a wonderful journey everything that had to be done to be ready for the Recording, now I crave for more! hahaha, I want to thank everyone who contributed here with their opinions and tips, it really makes VI control a wonderful place!


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## WhiteNoiz (Jun 28, 2015)

As I suspected, the trombones are a bit sluggish. No biggie though.

I would have doubled the violins if there was enough time. (Have a second take) Especially towards the build-up. Something to consider in the future. (I don't know if they allow it [extra stem or whatever] or if there was time, just saying)

Did they rehearse it at all before playing or sight read? It's pretty good, anyhow.

The bass freqs are also quite misrepresented. I barely hear anything. Not sure what's to blame though (Probably thin lines or relaxed dynamics but I'd expect to hear more presence from 4 celli, especially when they seem to be quite close miced)

I'd also give something more moving to the winds (compared to stabs and trills).

I'd also totally change the mix. Roll off some mid-highs and put everything a bit more back and widened. The solo lady is also a bit too exposed or, rather, unsupported by the peripherals. The sound makes me fear she's falling through a hole in the middle of the room or something. :oops: I'd also do volume automation on the brass as it seems to need some extra push. (Or push it back and widen it, it depends)

The spanish lyrics are a nice touch.

Overall, it's OK. I'd probably still layer it with samples as it's a bit empty (basses).

(Edit: I'd probably choose the third one and that's the one I'm mostly referring to)


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