# First time using VSL's Vienna Imperial grand



## Cass Hansen (May 3, 2016)

As stated, this is my first time using VSL’s Vienna Imperial grand for my compositions. Love the dynamics and the plethora of velocity layers. Great sound too. However on Soundcloud, it is normalized to hell and ends up much louder and distorted. Can’t figure out to get around that. Oh well…… at any rate, let me know what you think of the piece.

I know that most members on this forum are not about to listen to a 14 and a half minute piano piece. So listen to the first 3 minutes or so, that’ll give you a good enough snapshot of the piece.

Zuzax, by the way, is an area East of Albuquerque, New Mexico where I use to live. One could easily write a fantasy about the place with all its magic and intrigue and so I did!

Thanks for taking time to listen.

Cass


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## D-Mott (May 3, 2016)

You're a freak haha. I like this a lot. I would also love to hear this with a real piano. Although the VSL piano sounds pretty nice. It's got quite a good range of dynamics and it doesn't seem to get cloudy in the mid range.

Nice job.


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## Cass Hansen (May 5, 2016)

Thanks D-Mott for the feedback! Yeah, I've been called a lot of things in the past, I don't believe "freak" is on the list, so thanks for the addition! I mean, who wants to be normal anyway.

It does sound great on a real grand. I'm fortunate enough to have one in my living room (7'2"). The real thing is much better of course, especially on a punctuated/syncopated/ dynamic piece such as this. I would post a snippet played on the piano, but alas I don't own any mics. If I get enough piano music together one day, I'll spend the moola to record live.

Anyway, thanks for the reply back. Much appreciated.


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## JPQ (May 26, 2016)

Saddly someway sounds samples. Saddly i dont have energy listen such piano sound more than about 3:40. tune is nie but somehow i dont like this piano in this kind tune.


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## newcreation08 (May 26, 2016)

Great, like it very much. I only know the area west of Albuquerque ... so should go back there and look at the place for your inspiration


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## Baron Greuner (May 26, 2016)

Terrific. Very Gershwiny.


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## Cass Hansen (May 26, 2016)

JPQ said:


> Saddly someway sounds samples. Saddly i dont have energy listen such piano sound more than about 3:40. tune is nie but somehow i dont like this piano in this kind tune.


JPQ, I hear what you're saying. Yes, I would of used a Yamaha, Baldwin, or another brighter more "hard" sounding piano if I had one of those libraries, but sadly, I don't. I only have 3 virtual pianos and they're all on the more smooth melodic/resonate side of the spectrum. So, I agree, this piece doesn't quite fit the piano. 

I always have to laugh when someone asks the question on this forum, "what is your favorite sounding virtual piano"? And always the thread ends up naming almost every piano library ever recorded! So, yeah, the piano sound is a very personal thing for most composers. Some of the most popular ones named, ...I don't like. So, there you have it.

I might add, I'm not very good at mixing or mastering so that probably weighs in on you disliking the sound. Thanks for the post.

Cass


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## Cass Hansen (May 26, 2016)

newcreation08 said:


> Great, like it very much. I only know the area west of Albuquerque ... so should go back there and look at the place for your inspiration


Glad you liked it. Yeah, the Zuzax exit is off of I-40 about 10 miles or so East of Albuquerque. Can't miss it! I lived there for about 7 years. Pretty cool area. 
Cheers, Cass


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## Cass Hansen (May 26, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> Terrific. Very Gershwiny.


Hi Baron,
have to agree it has a lot Gershwiny (love that word you used) in the piece. Not my usual fair, but it was a lark to compose it, probably went way overboard with it, but hey, had to get it all out so I could move on. Maybe someday someone will say it has a lot of Hansiony in the piece.
Cass


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## JPQ (May 27, 2016)

Cass Hansen said:


> JPQ, I hear what you're saying. Yes, I would of used a Yamaha, Baldwin, or another brighter more "hard" sounding piano if I had one of those libraries, but sadly, I don't. I only have 3 virtual pianos and they're all on the more smooth melodic/resonate side of the spectrum. So, I agree, this piece doesn't quite fit the piano.
> 
> Cass



I have also only three virtual pianos Galaxy II package and sstuff what comes with NI Komplete 9 and VSL special edition standard. i dont even talk Logic Pro 9 pianos what have nice timbre but too limited samples such use. somehow i dont ully like VSL piano sound even their own demos.

ps. try maybe listen whole tune someday.


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## Cass Hansen (May 27, 2016)

JPQ said:


> I have also only three virtual pianos Galaxy II package and sstuff what comes with NI Komplete 9 and VSL special edition standard. i dont even talk Logic Pro 9 pianos what have nice timbre but too limited samples such use. somehow i dont ully like VSL piano sound even their own demos.
> 
> ps. try maybe listen whole tune someday.


Thanks JPQ I'll try to listen to demos of the pianos you mentioned because I'm not familiar with either of them. At some point I'll probably redo this piece on a different piano and maybe you can get through it then.


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## JPQ (May 27, 2016)

Cass Hansen said:


> Thanks JPQ I'll try to listen to demos of the pianos you mentioned because I'm not familiar with either of them. At some point I'll probably redo this piece on a different piano and maybe you can get through it then.


To me Galaxy II and Synthlogy Ivory i think are best bread and butter pianos. somehow VSL sound needs lot of work work but then it works really well i think. and Galaxy II Bosendorfer (maybe i type it wrong) is different what VSL gives. ps. i also need more samples but not pianos mabe but orchestral ones and ethnic stuff my computer and money income limits much.Saddly if i go back to Pc i need new daw as well.


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## Sean J (May 27, 2016)

No other sampled piano comes close to VSL's Bosendorfer IMHO... not even remotely close. I haven't ever paid a dime for another piano nor will I ever. Because they sampled it thoroughly, and not just velocity layers. They sampled it the way a pianist would sample it.

The problem isn't the library. It's Soundcloud. Put it up as an mp3 on your own site and it will sound just fine... as long as it sounds good in the first place. They don't play the RAW mp3 but convert the file first, which many users have long complained about. I don't know enough about it. But I have noticed that things sound great up until the point where I've uploaded it to S.C. and read about others discussing their process. I can't speak to what it is, just that the result isn't good to my ears. Although the last time I checked was some time ago, to be fair.


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## jemu999 (May 27, 2016)

Hey Cass,

Aside from the Soundcloud normalization issue, are you happy with the purchase? Im very much considering getting VSL Imperial, as I am very unsatisfied with the piano libraries I own.


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## FriFlo (May 28, 2016)

I have it too, but in terms of playability, I much prefer Pianoteq. First and foremost, I miss half pedaling, which is quite an important feature in my opinion for a top class virtual piano in 2016. Sound wise everyone will have to decide for himself. Is it your cup of tea? It is certainly not great for everything, but still, I find many situations where it is suitable and I really like the velocity response. With some modeled features, like half pedaling, I could recommend it more, though ...


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## Cass Hansen (May 28, 2016)

JPQ said:


> To me Galaxy II and Synthlogy Ivory i think are best bread and butter pianos. somehow VSL sound needs lot of work work but then it works really well i think. and Galaxy II Bosendorfer (maybe i type it wrong) is different what VSL gives. ps. i also need more samples but not pianos mabe but orchestral ones and ethnic stuff my computer and money income limits much.Saddly if i go back to Pc i need new daw as well.


I hear you JPQ. I want to switch from piano composition to orchestration which I haven't done in the past few years because my samples are so old I'd be laughed off this forum. We're talking 16 year old samples, Garritan's original strings, Dan Dean samples, and Siedlaczek's early stuff (advanced orchestra.) I also have very limited income for purchasing virtual libraries, so I'm taking my time to decide what's the best fit for me before laying out the cash. Hopefully in not so distant future I'll be able to post something orchestral here. Until then, more piano I'm afraid.


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## Cass Hansen (May 28, 2016)

scoredfilms said:


> No other sampled piano comes close to VSL's Bosendorfer IMHO... not even remotely close. I haven't ever paid a dime for another piano nor will I ever. Because they sampled it thoroughly, and not just velocity layers. They sampled it the way a pianist would sample it.
> 
> The problem isn't the library. It's Soundcloud. Put it up as an mp3 on your own site and it will sound just fine... as long as it sounds good in the first place. They don't play the RAW mp3 but convert the file first, which many users have long complained about. I don't know enough about it. But I have noticed that things sound great up until the point where I've uploaded it to S.C. and read about others discussing their process. I can't speak to what it is, just that the result isn't good to my ears. Although the last time I checked was some time ago, to be fair.



I have to totally agree with you. I asked if others had the same problems I had using soundcloud in the past but didn't get any response until now. It really sounds terrible to me too. The lows are really accentuated to the point of muddiness and the highs loose there punch and shine. And the soft parts or normalized out of proportion to the rest of the dynamics. It sounds okay for epic orchestrations and such, but not so much for solo instruments and wide dynamic music. I won't be using soundcloud anymore here to post but direct from my box account instead. Thanks for your input!
Cass


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## Cass Hansen (May 28, 2016)

jemu999 said:


> Hey Cass,
> 
> Aside from the Soundcloud normalization issue, are you happy with the purchase? Im very much considering getting VSL Imperial, as I am very unsatisfied with the piano libraries I own.


Yes, I am happy with the purchase. I love all the velocity layers. The dynamics are exceptional. If you write extreme dynamics into your compositions, this fits the bill. I also love the low frequencies of this piano. Strong and solid without being over powerful. 

What I do miss is what FriFlo (the post following yours) mentioned, that it doesn't have half pedaling. I could of used that a lot in this piece in particular. You can kind of get around it by going back and editing your pedal midi channel, but its not really the same. But other than that, it's quite high on my list as the best for virtual solo piano.


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## Cass Hansen (May 28, 2016)

FriFlo said:


> I have it too, but in terms of playability, I much prefer Pianoteq. First and foremost, I miss half pedaling, which is quite an important feature in my opinion for a top class virtual piano in 2016. Sound wise everyone will have to decide for himself. Is it your cup of tea? It is certainly not great for everything, but still, I find many situations where it is suitable and I really like the velocity response. With some modeled features, like half pedaling, I could recommend it more, though ...


Hey Friflo,
I just included your response in the post above yours, and I agree I miss the half pedaling, especially in a piece like this with lots of syncopation, suspensions, and appoggiaturas. But this library has been out awhile. Maybe VSL will update it soon with half pedaling since that seems to be a standard feature in most new piano libraries now. But like you, I do enjoy that this piano can provide many velocity layers/dynamics and tonal qualities which works for many types of textures of piano music. 

We'll have to keep our fingers crossed that they will implement that upgrade at some point.
Cass


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## novaburst (May 28, 2016)

Great piece of music, I love those who dont stick to time rules haha totally fearless more of this please.
Piano sounds great simple wow, but what do you expect from VSL.

Edit yes i did clap at the end hahaha


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## jemu999 (May 28, 2016)

Thanks Cass, and I do concur with the above post, the composition is great.


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## JPQ (May 28, 2016)

Very likely problem is soundcloud becouse in vsl demos their piano is one best pianos i think. 
ps. some things how ugly in soundcloud.


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## passsacaglia (May 29, 2016)

Loove it! This could be a battle theme in Final Fantasy, early volumes. Supergreat!


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## Cass Hansen (May 29, 2016)

novaburst said:


> Great piece of music, I love those who dont stick to time rules haha totally fearless more of this please.
> Piano sounds great simple wow, but what do you expect from VSL.
> 
> Edit yes i did clap at the end hahaha


Unfortunately my problem is that I don't stick to most rules in life, henceforth creating lots of problematic situations in my wake. Oh well, keeps one on their toes I guess. 

If I add a clap track to end of it, I'll dedicate it to you. 
Cass


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## Cass Hansen (May 29, 2016)

JPQ said:


> Very likely problem is soundcloud becouse in vsl demos their piano is one best pianos i think.
> ps. some things how ugly in soundcloud.


I'm glad you took the time to listen to their demos JPQ because the piano does sound great. Again, its probably a combination of soundcloud and my poor mixing skills. At some point I'll try to remix it and do better. Cheers,
Cass


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## Cass Hansen (May 29, 2016)

passsacaglia said:


> Loove it! This could be a battle theme in Final Fantasy, early volumes. Supergreat!


I played those so long ago....but you're right! Maybe I'll orchestrate this at some point. Could be a lot of fun. Thanks for the kudos.
Cass


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## E.Heart (May 29, 2016)

Cass Hansen said:


> As stated, this is my first time using VSL’s Vienna Imperial grand for my compositions. Love the dynamics and the plethora of velocity layers. Great sound too. However on Soundcloud, it is normalized to hell and ends up much louder and distorted. Can’t figure out to get around that. Oh well…… at any rate, let me know what you think of the piece.
> 
> I know that most members on this forum are not about to listen to a 14 and a half minute piano piece. So listen to the first 3 minutes or so, that’ll give you a good enough snapshot of the piece.
> 
> ...




Question: is this the (unedited) recording of what you played yourself or did you quantize it? It sounds quantized to me.


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## JPQ (May 29, 2016)

Cass Hansen said:


> I'm glad you took the time to listen to their demos JPQ because the piano does sound great. Again, its probably a combination of soundcloud and my poor mixing skills. At some point I'll try to remix it and do better. Cheers,
> Cass


I listened their demos when i searched perfect pianos my taste now is Galaxy II when i talk bread and butter pianos. special pianos i get someday maybe but before this i need so much more. Becouse piano is not most important thing to me. I somehow think problem is Soundclound becouse i think i heared some problems even with some other tunes even some own tunes which sounds little better before Soundcloud.


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## Cass Hansen (May 30, 2016)

E.Heart said:


> Question: is this the (unedited) recording of what you played yourself or did you quantize it? It sounds quantized to me.


Hey E.Heart,

None of this is quantized however, I have small hands (as mentioned in my other threads) so I'm unable to reach many of the "jazz" voiced chords in this piece. I would say approximately half is played directly and the other half I played in at half the tempo in order to reach difficult chords, but even then I have to leave out notes and add them in later by mouse. Then I adjust the tempo back to original value.

This process, which is better than mouse entry, still tends to make it sound quantized but in reality, it is not. Hope that answers your question.


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## Jorgakis (Jun 1, 2016)

It's super great from the first second on.


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## Cass Hansen (Jun 1, 2016)

Jorgakis said:


> It's super great from the first second on.


 Jorgakis,
Perhaps there are too many seconds in the piece but thanks for the thumbs up. Just couldn't stop until I said what I had to say. (I tend to be long winded!)


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## Jorgakis (Jun 1, 2016)

Cass Hansen said:


> Jorgakis,
> Perhaps there are too many seconds in the piece but thanks for the thumbs up. Just couldn't stop until I said what I had to say. (I tend to be long winded!)



Ah no I know that problem, everything I start ends up being really long. That's why I try to write really short cues but, in the end, my next project will be half an hour (so screw it, no boundaries anymore!!):D


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## Reegs (Jun 1, 2016)

Gorgeous piece! I am in awe of your ability to play.

Listened to the whole thing. I loved the change around 2 minutes. And the climax around 8:45 had so much energy! The development following that is beautiful, too (with quite an interesting atonal bit around 12-minute mark).


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## Cass Hansen (Jun 2, 2016)

Jorgakis said:


> Ah no I know that problem, everything I start ends up being really long. That's why I try to write really short cues but, in the end, my next project will be half an hour (so screw it, no boundaries anymore!!):D



Jorkakis,

I’m one of those people that firmly believe you should do what you excel at and guide your rudder in that direction. Besides choosing which style, harmony, instrumentation, texture, etc , that will match your particular gifts, people often forget about form and length. I’ve come to learn that composers (even the classical giants) are often better at either writing short, precise tracks or long evolving tracks. One is not better over the other, just different. Do I write operas and symphonies, or songs and incidental music, that sort of thing.

A lot of composers that excel at writing short tracks have a real challenge when it comes to extending the material into a lengthy one; especially making it interesting and engaging along the way without droning on with lots of repetition and stagnate ostinato work. Or the other extreme, too much material added to make the track longer, hence losing any continuity or focus of the thematic material.

But the flip side is also true. I find that composers who write long tracks aren’t always adept at writing short tracks because their transitions come out “choppy” and unfinished sounding by the time the end does come; not a very smooth fulfilling track. I admire composers who can condense their material down into a short completely functioning track. This is a necessity in film scoring and something, sadly, I’m not very good at.

Getting long winded here, but I’m glad you finally get to use your talents on a lengthy project WITH NO BOUNDARIES!!! From what you say, your compositional prowess lies in that direction. You should find it quite rewarding when you’re done. I’m envious!

Cass


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## Cass Hansen (Jun 2, 2016)

Reegs said:


> Gorgeous piece! I am in awe of your ability to play.
> 
> Listened to the whole thing. I loved the change around 2 minutes. And the climax around 8:45 had so much energy! The development following that is beautiful, too (with quite an interesting atonal bit around 12-minute mark).



Reegs,

I’m glad you got so much out of the piece. I can tell you really enjoyed it and that makes me feel good that I wrote it. 

As mentioned above in the thread, my hands are on the smallish side, and unfortunately I love writing piano music with wide open chords and lots of 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, in various positions so in the end, I have a difficult time trying to reach the chords and as any pianist will tell you, this slows your tempo down and totally destroys any phrasing and “true” expression you want to inject into your playing. A lot of this I had to play at half speed and then double the tempo but by doing so, you lose a lot of expression and as someone pointed out above, it ends up sounding quantized or lackluster. Hopefully someday I can find a pianist who can do this piece justice because it is a blast to play. (But I do play a killer Beethoven and Brahms!)

Yeah, I like to mix things up in my music which is the main complaint I get about my music; not harmonically consistent and stylistically coherent. But that is my style! I like using ‘blues’ and modern harmony and such as a coloration in my pieces rather than making them the foundation of the piece, like a unique instrument in the orchestra with a specific tone color. Modern/contemporary music is just not personal enough for my liking to make the entire piece that style. Recently I have gotten some affirmation that my approach to music is not total rubbish in that film music is moving more and more towards my chosen stylistic approach.

However composing to film is not really my cup of tea because I dislike writing to timed slots and matching what’s going on on the screen exactly with the music. I don’t mean the overall scene expression (chase scene, love scene, comedic scene, etc), I mean the dynamic moments , like someone jumping off a cliff, a narrow escape by some object, cut/edit that makes you jump, that kind of thing which is essential in film scoring, I’m just not good at. 

At any rate, what you pointed out at various times in this piece expresses my style and I thank you for giving me a chance to explain myself!

Cass


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## KEnK (Jun 3, 2016)

Excellent!

Very easy and a pleasure to listen to the entire thing.
(Conversely, I have a much harder time getting past even 30sec of the various looped genres so pervasive here)
I enjoyed the development, breadth of ideas and expression.
Seems like you have a wide range of influences- Classical, jazz, maybe Cuban.
Do I detect a fondness for Keith Emerson?

When I listen to sample based music, I try to focus more on people's ideas rather than production values.
There's always some fiddling to be done to make anything "better".

If your goal is to make a sampled version sound real,
then there are some passages that sound a little unnaturally precise.
Possibly these are the bits where you slowed the tempo to get the parts in.
Just humanize those parts a little- (slop it up and it'll be better)

There is an audience at v.i. for more sophisticated material like this.
Please continue to post your music.

thanks for that

k


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## Cass Hansen (Jun 3, 2016)

KEnK said:


> Excellent!
> 
> Very easy and a pleasure to listen to the entire thing.
> (Conversely, I have a much harder time getting past even 30sec of the various looped genres so pervasive here)
> ...



Hi KEnK,

Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I do have a fondness for Keith Emerson and really for most popular keyboardists of the last 3 decades. And I do have a wide scope of musical interest from classical, jazz, rock, blue grass, ethnic, and yes, even rap. But it has to be good efforts in all those categories which as you know 90% is not. But I occasionally find gems in all categories which helps broaden my stylistic range of interest and like a sponge, I absorb it (consciously and unconsciously) and use it in my compositions. But I find that that is not really all that unusual here because we have such an eclectic lot. (which I admire by the way, otherwise I would go elsewhere to post.)

I hear you on the humanizing revamp of this piece. I hate practicing now a days, so I can’t play my compositions (or anyone’s really) the way they should be. But I’m taking time out and practicing this piece more so that I can put out a more “sensitive” performance of it. Maybe I’ll repost it when I feel it is more polished. But in the mean time, I might try the “slop it up a bit” approach to get it to sound more authentic, but as you know we pianists spend countless hours trying to get our left and right hands coordinated and to play exactly in time together, and it seems sacrilegious to do the opposite. But I get your point and other people have mentioned the same thing, so I’ll see what I can do.

I understand where you’re coming from but I’m not sure this piece is any more or less sophisticated than any other of the really good compositions that come across this forum on a daily basis, it’s just different. But like you, I like variety so that’s why I’ve chosen to post at this forum rather than a more narrow focused forum because I can learn a lot (and have) from all the wide variety of styles presented here. Head’s up, I’ll keep posting but each piece will probably be drastically different from each other. I get bored easily when I compose, why I have such a hard time completing anything. Sigh…………

Again, thanks for your candid and supportive post.

Cheers, Cass


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## Grim_Universe (Jun 4, 2016)

It was a pleasure to listen your music Thanks.


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## Cass Hansen (Jun 4, 2016)

Grim_Universe said:


> It was a pleasure to listen your music Thanks.


 and likewise listening to yours. Appreciate it!!!
Cass


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