# What orchestra library should a noob NOT buy?



## nolotrippen (Jan 13, 2022)

Lots of posts on which is the best, but which is the worst, or too expensive, or too complicated? What orchestra library should a noob NOT buy?


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## Laurin Lenschow (Jan 13, 2022)

Interesting question. If we are not only talking about single libraries but also about collections (Berlin Series, SSO etc.), then I would say... collections. 

I think the best first step is to buy one all-encompassing orchestral library like BBCSO Core or Nucleus to get your feet wet and to see if you like that particular developer's take on orchestral samples. 
Immediately committing to one developer by buying a full set of dedicated section-libraries can not only lead to a lot of remorse but will also feel overwhelming and paralyzing.


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## Snarf (Jan 13, 2022)

Depends on what they want to do and their level of 'noobness'.


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## mussnig (Jan 13, 2022)

Laurin Lenschow said:


> BBCSO Core


I really love BBCSO for what it is but I would be cautious recommending it to noobs (as in the title), in general. It needs more RAM than most Kontakt orchestras and after more than 2 years you still can't purge samples. Many people who are new to this are surprised on the demands (regarding hardware) that orchestral VIs have (because one is "just" making music and not editing a video, making an animation, ...).

In particular, there many who simply tap into this whole thing and start out with 16 GB or even 8 GB RAM (because that's what they have at that moment). You can do a lot with 16 GB (and to some extent even 8 GB) if you have libraries where you can purge samples - with BBCSO you will hit limits pretty soon.

Another reasons why I would hardly recommend it to noobs is the fact that it doesn't contain ensemble patches. Obviously this depends on how much one already knows about orchestration etc. and sure, with tools like Unify, there are some workarounds.



Apart from that, one other thing that is probably perfect for some beginners but will for sure give a hard time for others: Infinite Series (only Brass and WWs so far, though).

I guess for many people who are new to this, the concept of having to switch articulations is for sure an obstacle (and it's probably also an obstacle for most others as well, except we are simply used to it). Being simply able to play stuff in, is so nice.

On the other hand: No pre-made ensembles (sure, you can copy the midi or load a Kontakt multi with humanization) and you really have to perform it. With many other libraries I can simply press one key and even without using Midi CCs too much, it will still sound somewhat decent (because it's a recording of an actual performance). With IB/IW you would be out of luck.



So in the end, I think a good orchestral library for beginners would feature a minimal set of articulations (too much choice is overwhelming in the beginning), ensemble patches (even like "all strings", "all brass", etc.) but also control over the most important individual sections, is not too demanding regarding RAM and CPU and most importantly, is not too expensive. Bonus if it comes with 2-4 mic positions (extra bonus for pre-mixed signals) and another bonus if it doesn't need too much SSD space.

The orchestral packs that come with Ableton Live Suite for instance satisfy a lot of the above (they are made by SONiVOX). But the sound is not the best and I wouldn't pay the money they charge if you need to buy them extra (Ableton Pack or the full VST version from SONiVOX). I guess many other DAWs have something similar.

Apart from that: maybe getting something like Century Strings/Brass lite first and upgrading to the full stuff during a sale would be a good choice. Then again, this would require Kontakt Full, which most beginners don't have ...


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## doctoremmet (Jan 13, 2022)

mussnig said:


> I really love BBCSO for what it is but I would be cautious recommending it to noobs (as in the title), in general. It needs more RAM than most Kontakt orchestras and after more than 2 years you still can't purge samples. Many people who are new to this are surprised on the demands (regarding hardware) that orchestral VIs have (because one is "just" making music and not editing a video, making an animation, ...).
> 
> In particular, there many who simply tap into this whole thing and start out with 16 GB or even 8 GB RAM (because that's what they have at that moment). You can do a lot with 16 GB (and to some extent even 8 GB) if you have libraries where you can purge samples - with BBCSO you will hit limits pretty soon.
> 
> ...


Very good points, all of them. Although the assumed correlation between being a noob in the realm of using orchestral samples and not owning Kontakt Full / not having a powerful computer does not necessarily have to be true. Which makes one thing even more clear: all these generalizations are very difficult to make, in terms of how applicable they will be at the end of the day.


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## Jotto (Jan 13, 2022)

nolotrippen said:


> Lots of posts on which is the best, but which is the worst, or too expensive, or too complicated? What orchestra library should a noob NOT buy?


A very expensive one. Start with something relatively cheap and find out what you like and how you like to work.


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## doctoremmet (Jan 13, 2022)

Jotto said:


> A very expensive one. Start with something relatively cheap and find out what you like and how you like to work.


I now fully expect someone to step in and say “No man… I bought a whole lot of cheap ones, and finally arrived at the one expensive library to rule them all, so I should have gotten that one right away”, completely ignoring the phenomena “learning curve” and “hindsight”


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 13, 2022)

mussnig said:


> with BBCSO you will hit limits pretty soon.


Not to sidetrack, but I could load the whole thing onto my old MacBook Pro. The total footprint was 10.5GB. You just need to trash (purge) all of the articulations except for the one you're using within an instance.


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## vms (Jan 13, 2022)

Stay away from non-Kontakt / non-mix-ready / watered-down version.
EW composer cloud is the only exception.


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## b_elliott (Jan 13, 2022)

Now entering the white-waters-of-which-library-to-avoid?





Opinions can be like that water + those rocks.

Some things for any noob to consider:
1. It helps to first hear real orchestral performances vs the rest (virtual). 

2. Any orchestral library = an investment which can grow into $1000s to $10,000 over the years.

3. Bottom line: Use your ears with what is available vst-wise (free libraries may be all you need) vs the $$$ required (see #2) to chase after the real orch sound (#1). Ears vs wallet.

For me I've listened to numerous live orchestras in various auditoriums. One ah ha! moment was hearing the LA Philharmonic at the Hollywood Bowl which was such a disappointment (not the performance) but the sound from sitting +100 yards in the back, all I heard was an _amplified_ orch vs the real thing.  

To me the vst world can be like that HW Bowl experience. Only the real orch is real. Vst libraries come close until they don't.


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 13, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I now fully expect someone to step in and say “No man… I bought a whole lot of cheap ones, and finally arrived at the one expensive library to rule them all, so I should have gotten that one right away”, completely ignoring the phenomena “learning curve” and “hindsight”



To step in and play the naughty, devils advocate then...

..._if_ you have the funds available, why not go straight to the biggest, best and most expensive one you can get your grubby hands on? Deeper sampling, better legato, more mics = easier to extract good results.


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## Casiquire (Jan 13, 2022)

I'm not sure that there's an answer. The only reason i could imagine that a "noob" shouldn't buy something that works for more experienced people would be ease of use but i really don't think it's that deep. Ease of use has improved immensely over the last ten or fifteen years yet a lot of those trickier libraries like Hollywood Strings pre-Opus were still loved by noobs. I don't really think there is anything to tell noobs never to touch, aside from maybe easy cheap deals that promise to easily make everything sound amazing. Go for something with at least a decent reputation here


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## doctoremmet (Jan 13, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> To step in and play the naughty, devils advocate then...
> 
> ..._if_ you have the funds available, why not go straight to the biggest, best and most expensive one you can get your grubby hands on? Deeper sampling, better legato, more mics = easier to extract good results.


Oh absolutely. A couple of related remarks:

- yes, the assumption that being a noob automatically implies being broke or not being ready, willing and able to just spend whatever they want to get the “best” is wrong

- no, the assumption that a more expensive library sounds better than a cheaper one is not automatically correct

- no, having more and deeper options available because a rich noob can afford them, does not automatically imply they will be a good match at the start of the learning curve

Sh*t is like all nuanced and sh*t


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 13, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Oh absolutely. A couple of related remarks:
> 
> - yes, the assumption that being a noob automatically implies being broke or not being ready, willing and able to just spend whatever they want to get the “best” is wrong
> 
> ...


All logical points! Also..



Casiquire said:


> I'm not sure that there's an answer. The only reason i could imagine that a "noob" shouldn't buy something that works for more experienced people would be ease of use but i really don't think it's that deep.


..I think applies too. The basic "driving" of these things is pretty much the same from library to library, regardless of cost. Send a combo of midi notes and cc in, get noise out. Keyswitch or not to taste. Add salt, easy on the chilli.

I think the limiting factor for any "noob" would be musical knowledge, orchestration etc.



doctoremmet said:


> Sh*t is like all nuanced and sh*t


You sure you're on the right forum?


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## robgb (Jan 13, 2022)

Some composers can make the shittiest libraries sound like gold. That's why so many of us are fooled by demos.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 13, 2022)

robgb said:


> Some composers can make the shittiest libraries sound like gold. That's why so many of us are fooled by demos.


What do you consider the s**tiest libraries?


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## Marcus Millfield (Jan 13, 2022)

If that person would be considered a noob because he/she has no past experience with using orchestral libraries and computers to compose music, I'd go with your recommendations.

If however, someone is considered a noob because he/she has no experience in music whatsoever, I'd probably recommend spending that money on music lessons first.


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## Jrides (Jan 13, 2022)

OK since it seems that everyone else is chasing their own tails, I will play…

London symphonic strings
Miroslaw philharmonik

neither is worth the cash outlay at MSRP. Of course if you can find either of them for like 20 bucks… have at it. That’s a hard limit on the price BTW. Lol


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## DSmolken (Jan 13, 2022)

Orcophony. Go be normal first.


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## Evans (Jan 13, 2022)

What's funny is that the same reasons people suggest Nucleus or libraries with pre-orchestrated sections like in the Albions or Arks (simplification of artics and/or UI, reducing choice and the amount of new technology someone has to learn) are the same reasons why someone might later end up buying many, potential duplicates of what they already have. Right out of the gate, it's effectively a decision to spend more money to later get the remaining articulations or split sections.


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## mussnig (Jan 13, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Not to sidetrack, but I could load the whole thing onto my old MacBook Pro. The total footprint was 10.5GB. You just need to trash (purge) all of the articulations except for the one you're using within an instance.


I have been doing that on my laptop with 16 GB RAM (soldered RAM, so not possible to upgrade) and using BBCSO here and there together with Kontakt libs worked. Once I started writing a piece using only BBCSO (only loading articulations when needed) I ran out of RAM halfway through the piece. Sure, I could bounce to audio etc. but I decided to continue working on that one, once I got my new PC (which is in my possession now and which reminds me that I should finish this piece).


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## milford59 (Jan 13, 2022)

If you buy cheap, you buy (at least) twice.


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## doctoremmet (Jan 13, 2022)

milford59 said:


> If you buy cheap, you buy (at least) twice.


So THAT’s why BF is so expensive?!


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## easyrider (Jan 13, 2022)

nolotrippen said:


> Lots of posts on which is the best, but which is the worst, or too expensive, or too complicated? What orchestra library should a noob NOT buy?


Don’t buy, any noob should subscribe to composer cloud….

EOT

😂


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## JamelaBanderson (Jan 13, 2022)

I'd recommend getting Komplete Ultimate 2nd hand or on sale, because you can sell it later, and it comes with a ton of orchestral tools for you to test. Also, try a month of EW Composer Cloud. If you like it, buy a year subscription on sale or wait for the next EW HOOPUS sale. Though be warned, you can't resell it and it's not necessarily a better deal than a sale subscription.
Trust me, no matter how great your first library is, you WILL want more.


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## Vlzmusic (Jan 13, 2022)

VI "Noobnes" can be different. Once there were tons of older folks who could write a symphony, but knew very little about sound. As the orchestral toys became widespread, many beat producers started to incorporate them, and got interested in cinematic music. Also, many performing musicians started to write orchestral music with VIs. Now there are lots of "real noobs" - having no other background. I think all these categories need different things.


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## RogiervG (Jan 13, 2022)

very expensive libs, those often require more work to sound good and are less forgiving (but can yield to way more real sounding end results). and of the depth it can become a very overwheming experience (articulation galore, often more complex interface, more instruments etc).
As a starter, not sure how to grow... start humble.


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## Fever Phoenix (Jan 13, 2022)

Vlzmusic said:


> VI "Noobnes" can be different. Once there were tons of older folks who could write a symphony, but knew very little about sound. As the orchestral toys became widespread, many beat producers started to incorporate them, and got interested in cinematic music. Also, many performing musicians started to write orchestral music with VIs. Now there are lots of "real noobs" - having no other background. I think all these categories need different things.



well said indeed!


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## liquidlino (Jan 13, 2022)

I said it on the other thread already, but worth repeating here. As a noob myself, and having just spent quite a bit of money at BF on some excellent libraries, I absolutely realise that my first purchase would have been better to be BBCSO Core or Nucleus, or the Jaeger/BF package deal (no woods there though).

Core I think would have been best, for several reasons:

1. Ram not an issue. I just buy more (I'm a noob with money)
2. It sounds fabulous out of the box, very little mixing or balancing needed, if any, to get an acceptable sound for a noob
3. No mics to confuse or distract a noob
4. Full range of sections and most soloists, just not string soloists. Ensembles are finez but actually as a noob, I want to have the freedom to experiment and learn orchestration, and not feel hemmed into a pre orchestration.
5. From what I gather, BBC is quite forgiving and easier to control. Mattias says that in his comparison video with Cinematic series, that things like crescendos etc were effortless to program in BBC, and more effort in CS. Still not quite sure what that means, but I will take his word for it.
6. Relatively cheap, especially on sale. I can buy core or Nucleus for under 300 at black friday, and BBC is still on sale now for under 300 if you have discover already. And has an upgrade path to pro should I want to, or can move to a different package if I decide without too much remorse.

Ah well, hindsight is a bitch. I can't complain, I have CSS, BHCT, Forzo Essentials, StormDrum3 and OAE. They are all excellent. But I wish I had just bought BBC core first, and then bought these later perhaps.


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## doctoremmet (Jan 13, 2022)

But if you had, you’d now be lusting over BHCT. Or CSS. It never ends


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## liquidlino (Jan 13, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> But if you had, you’d now be lusting over BHCT. Or CSS. It never ends


For sure!! Zero regrets buying anything I got, they are all "forever" libraries. But do I have an ideal orchestra learning platform? No. And I only realise this now. I am still debating whether I should buy core now, or complete the cinematic series since I already started it. Will likely just stick with what I have now for quite some time.


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## doctoremmet (Jan 13, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> For sure!! Zero regrets buying anything I got, they are all "forever" libraries. But do I have an ideal orchestra learning platform? No. And I only realise this now. I am still debating whether I should buy core now, or complete the cinematic series since I already started it. Will likely just stick with what I have now for quite some time.


I know. I wasn’t trying to be a smartass, more of a generic comment. Let’s say… from personal experience  but BBCSO Core will likely suit you well.


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## from_theashes (Jan 13, 2022)

I think the first purchase as a noob will never be the perfect one… cause you don’t know what you want and you will learn many things in a short amount of time and your taste will evolve in a short amount of time. So any purchase is a risk. 
I think a couple months of Composer Cloud to get your toes wet is the best option to not burn money.


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## robgb (Jan 13, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> What do you consider the s**tiest libraries?


GPO, compared to what you can get today, is a shitty library. Miroslav, while well-recorded, is poorly scripted IMO, so that goes into the shitty category as well. But there are people out there who can make both of those libraries shine. So maybe it's all about talent and not about the library...


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 13, 2022)

robgb said:


> GPO, compared to what you can get today, is a shitty library. Miroslav, while well-recorded, is poorly scripted IMO, so that goes into the shitty category as well. But there are people out there who can make both of those libraries shine. So maybe it's all about talent and not about the library...


I agree with those assessments…..but I have yet hear convincing demos from either of those. They are just a step above a good Casio IMO.


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## robgb (Jan 13, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I agree with those assessments…..but I have yet hear convincing demos from either of those. They are just a step above a good Casio IMO.


The good ones are out there, but may be impossible to find these days amid the flood of material on the web.


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## ShidoStrife (Jan 13, 2022)

Those extremely cheap orchestral samples. No, you don't get a full orchestra for $39. You wasted $39 on something you'll replace very soon.

*Yes, pros shouldn't buy those either, but it's the noobs who are easily tempted by the "no-brainer" deals. Speaking from experience here 😂


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## liquidlino (Jan 13, 2022)

ShidoStrife said:


> Those extremely cheap orchestral samples. No, you don't get a full orchestra for $39. You wasted $39 on something you'll replace very soon.
> 
> *Yes, pros shouldn't buy those either, but it's the noobs who are easily tempted by the "no-brainer" deals. Speaking from experience here 😂


I'm guessing the neo and max sample library falls in this bucket that is on sale right now? Never heard of them before, but 79 for full orchestra can't be good, right?


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## ShidoStrife (Jan 13, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> I'm guessing the neo and max sample library falls in this bucket that is on sale right now? Never heard of them before, but 79 for full orchestra can't be good, right?


Sorry I'm not familiar with those either. Care to share links?

That said, I didn't mean that cheap samples are inherently bad. I started on Miroslav CE that I got for $42 I think. Was it good? Yes, _for the price_. Was it usable? Very, for the type of music that I worked on. But if I could start over, I'd save that $42 to buy one from the "big boys" instead.


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## liquidlino (Jan 13, 2022)

ShidoStrife said:


> Sorry I'm not familiar with those either. Care to share links?
> 
> That said, I didn't mean that cheap samples are inherently bad. I started on Miroslav CE that I got for $42 I think. Was it good? Yes, _for the price_. Was it usable? Very, for the type of music that I worked on. But if I could start over, I'd save that $42 to buy one from the "big boys" instead.


It's this giant bundle. Seems like one of the libraries you are talking about. Doesn't seem to have legato, but the woodwinds ensemble is 40gb, so must be a lot of rr and dynamic layers in there...https://www.pluginboutique.com/product/1-Instruments/55-Kontakt-Instrument/7842-Max-Neo-Bundle


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## proxima (Jan 13, 2022)

Were it not for the Composer Cloud subscription (and/or a pre-built template), I would say EW Hollywood series on Play. I have HS and HB, and I'm even more inclined to read manuals than most, but I think the articulation names and sheer number of options are easily overwhelming for new users. I didn't like having to rely on the manual as much as I did. Other libraries like the CSS/CSB/CSW are far more approachable for getting started and setting up a pretty straightforward template. 

But...Composer Cloud does exist. Brilliant, really - the advice here is routinely to give it a go. What I'd say is that if you find it not really to your liking, don't assume that all libraries work like it, and keep looking. If you do like, it, fantastic!


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 13, 2022)

proxima said:


> Were it not for the Composer Cloud subscription (and/or a pre-built template), I would say EW Hollywood series on Play. I have HS and HB, and I'm even more inclined to read manuals than most, but I think the articulation names and sheer number of options are easily overwhelming for new users. I didn't like having to rely on the manual as much as I did. Other libraries like the CSS/CSB/CSW are far more approachable for getting started and setting up a pretty straightforward template.
> 
> But...Composer Cloud does exist. Brilliant, really - the advice here is routinely to give it a go. What I'd say is that if you find it not really to your liking, don't assume that all libraries work like it, and keep looking. If you do like, it, fantastic!


I'd also say that CSS/CSB/CSW would be a great first set of libraries to get. Got all your bread and butter articulations, consistent programming, variety of shorts, great legato and it is all balanced.


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## MaxOctane (Jan 13, 2022)

My advice on how NOT to buy a lib when getting started.

Don't ask "What library is good for a John Williams sound?" You don't have John Williams's musical ideas, his development and orchestration skills. Abbey Road One won't get you any closer to any another bread-and-butter lib. You would know the Star Wars theme exactly as you do today, if it had been recorded in LA.
Similarly, don't fall for "Which lib will give me a romantic sound?", "Do I need BHCT for a 50's-noir sound?", "Will Tokyo Scoring Strings get me the Japanese RPG sound?" It's not the library -- it's the writing.
When listening to demos, estimate yourself at being able to achieve maybe 5-10% of what you hear in the demo, if you're just starting out.
Be careful that the demo isn't using other instruments not in the lib. I was burned a few times like this.
Sometimes, the awesome lush sound you're hearing in the demo, is actually the reverb they washed it in.
Mostly, for a noob, I'd advise to first decide if they want:

Ensemble or individual parts
Big or small
Classical orchestra or hybrid/processed


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## RogiervG (Jan 14, 2022)

MaxOctane said:


> My advice on how NOT to buy a lib when getting started.
> 
> Don't ask "What library is good for a John Williams sound?" You don't have John Williams's musical ideas, his development and orchestration skills. Abbey Road One won't get you any closer to any another bread-and-butter lib. You would know the Star Wars theme exactly as you do today, if it had been recorded in LA.
> Similarly, don't fall for "Which lib will give me a romantic sound?", "Do I need BHCT for a 50's-noir sound?", "Will Tokyo Scoring Strings get me the Japanese RPG sound?" It's not the library -- it's the writing.
> ...


Well for the first two points, i kind of agree.. but not fully.
Some libraries are just better for certain styles/sound than others. 
Examples: "romantic" often uses e.g. molto vibrato like techniques, which not every library offers. Same for the JW sound, often they want a warm big sound out of the box patches, which also not every library offers. And mixing is a different knowledge than orchestration/library usage. So i think it's kind of good new people tell what kind of sound/techniques they are after, but i agree in that it's often also abused, because they think the lib does it for them. So Orchestration skills are ofcourse, indeed the foundation to have a certain level of competence in.


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## ShidoStrife (Jan 14, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> It's this giant bundle. Seems like one of the libraries you are talking about. Doesn't seem to have legato, but the woodwinds ensemble is 40gb, so must be a lot of rr and dynamic layers in there...https://www.pluginboutique.com/product/1-Instruments/55-Kontakt-Instrument/7842-Max-Neo-Bundle


ah, Muze. I've read some discussions about them either here or some FB groups. I'd stay away.


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## liquidlino (Jan 14, 2022)

ShidoStrife said:


> ah, Muze. I've read some discussions about them either here or some FB groups. I'd stay away.


I searched and searched. No demos to be heard anywhere. No reviews, nothing. How does a 500gb library suddenly appear?? Must be an old library rebranded?


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## Bemused (Jan 14, 2022)

A noob (we were all there once) could equate size of library and low price with value for money (likely to be a priority at that stage). Therefore avoid any that has the name Aria or Muze.


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## doctoremmet (Jan 14, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Must be an old library rebranded?


You are likely right about two key attributes:
1. old samples from who knows where
2. rebranded - in fact Muze used to have another name not that long ago


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 14, 2022)

proxima said:


> Were it not for the Composer Cloud subscription (and/or a pre-built template), I would say EW Hollywood series on Play. I have HS and HB, and I'm even more inclined to read manuals than most, but I think the articulation names and sheer number of options are easily overwhelming for new users. I didn't like having to rely on the manual as much as I did. Other libraries like the CSS/CSB/CSW are far more approachable for getting started and setting up a pretty straightforward template.
> 
> But...Composer Cloud does exist. Brilliant, really - the advice here is routinely to give it a go. What I'd say is that if you find it not really to your liking, don't assume that all libraries work like it, and keep looking. If you do like, it, fantastic!


Thankfully, Opus has done away with the extensive articulation lists. There’s only a handful for each articulation now.


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## nolotrippen (Jan 14, 2022)

OP was "Lots of posts on which is the best, but which is the worst, or too expensive, or too complicated? What orchestra library should a noob NOT buy?"

Very little mention of what to avoid it's become a recommendation list again. Sigh.


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## SZK-Max (Jan 14, 2022)

I think which one is difficult.
First library you buy is basically the worst rating.
But it will be the best library in a few years.


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## b_elliott (Jan 14, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> It's this giant bundle. Seems like one of the libraries you are talking about. Doesn't seem to have legato, but the woodwinds ensemble is 40gb, so must be a lot of rr and dynamic layers in there...https://www.pluginboutique.com/product/1-Instruments/55-Kontakt-Instrument/7842-Max-Neo-Bundle


This Muze library qualifies as a don't get:

1. It's 700 GBs. Yikes! Though cheap in price, you'll very likely need a new external HDD/SDD sooner than later. $$$

2. Hard to find a review of Muze's products though it was mentioned in a vi posting earlier on pirated software. I quote:

"(There's also Muze, aka Sonex aka Qataz, but no one is sure whether or not their samples are stolen.) Many of the loop libraries contain old material that is out of print from the original publishers, so the current sellers might think what they're doing is okay." rrichard63

3. Similar product, different sale: AudioPlugin has a Muze Essentials bundle for $20 (100GB).

I'd make this a top candidate for a noob to avoid. Instead go for freebies: BBC SO Discover, RedRoom Orchestra, ProjectSam Free Orchestra, Sonatina symphonic orchestra. Since all are free, no loss on deciding they are not your thang.

But, if you are noob, with a lil' bit of Evel Knieval, you'll go for it.


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## pipirisnaki (Jan 14, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I'm not sure that there's an answer. The only reason i could imagine that a "noob" shouldn't buy something that works for more experienced people would be ease of use but i really don't think it's that deep. Ease of use has improved immensely over the last ten or fifteen years yet a lot of those trickier libraries like Hollywood Strings pre-Opus were still loved by noobs. I don't really think there is anything to tell noobs never to touch, aside from maybe easy cheap deals that promise to easily make everything sound amazing. Go for something with at least a decent reputation here


In this line, i commited a mistake when i was a noob (well, i'm still a noob but not so much xD) by buying orchestral tools berlin strings. To be clear, the lib is awesome, but at that time, i did not have the expertice to use both, lib and daw, so... i was a totally noob.

cheers!


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## Bee_Abney (Jan 14, 2022)

A few thoughts on what might be good advice from someone who is still too new to be offering it as advice. 

For someone with little orchestration experience, a little musical knowledge, a longstanding relationship with orchestral music, and no experience with sample libraries perhaps advise them not to buy an orchestral library yet. Use one or more of the free ones. Get stuck into making music first, learning along the way, and leave buying tools until a bit later. Your earliest purchase to consider might be a DAW (but just use Cakewalk at first), or Nectar/Ozone elements, and one or two specific solo instruments.

When I started I bought things I didn't need to, but didn't know I could get for free.

However, my interest isn't orchestral music as such, and certainly not classical orchestral music. I like it, but I don't listen to it enough to know the guts of it. 

Libraries to avoid buying? All of them, especially 'bargains' until you have more experience - including enough experience to identify a genuine bargain. Save up and get one with sufficient options and good samples.

Don't subscribe to EastWest yet - start with the free libraries. Subscribe later if, by the time you are ready, you can't afford to buy something, are waiting for sales, can't decide, or you actually think you might like the Hollywood Orchestra and want to try it out first. (Or subscribe to get much more besides Hollywood Orchestra.) 

If you want to write orchestral music, don't buy an ensembles-only library yet. They are great for orchestral sounds, not for orchestral composing and orchestrating as such. Do be aware that the Albion libraries have very limited resources for actual orchestral composing and orchestration. They are great, but not great for that. 

Advice for those with lots of disposable income? The same, but buy a good DAW sooner?


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## Henu (Jan 14, 2022)

pipirisnaki said:


> In this line, i commited a mistake when i was a noob (well, i'm still a noob but not so much xD) by buying orchestral tools berlin strings.


I remember when we got Hollywood Strings for work in 2016, and I HATED it. I was using EWQLSO at the time (yes, I know...) and was a complete noob with sample libraries, so I ended up nearly ruining a couple of projects on my standards and deleted the library from my hard drive. 

Fast-forwarding five years and a zillion sample libraries later, I discovered the library again last spring, and now it's a completely different story. In fact, I LOVE it now when I actually know _how to use it_. The sound is gorgeous, the articulations are plenty to give variation to the playing, the runs are crazy good still in 2022 and the whole library sounds cohesive when played together. Little did I know back then, hah!


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## vms (Jan 14, 2022)

nolotrippen said:


> OP was "Lots of posts on which is the best, but which is the worst, or too expensive, or too complicated? What orchestra library should a noob NOT buy?"
> 
> Very little mention of what to avoid it's become a recommendation list again. Sigh.


Honestly, you better ask this question on other forums, VI control users tend to be...hmm...positive, lol.


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## pipirisnaki (Jan 14, 2022)

Henu said:


> I remember when we got Hollywood Strings for work in 2016, and I HATED it. I was using EWQLSO at the time (yes, I know...) and was a complete noob with sample libraries, so I ended up nearly ruining a couple of projects on my standards and deleted the library from my hard drive.
> 
> Fast-forwarding five years and a zillion sample libraries later, I discovered the library again last spring, and now it's a completely different story. In fact, I LOVE it now when I actually know _how to use it_. The sound is gorgeous, the articulations are plenty to give variation to the playing, the runs are crazy good still in 2022 and the whole library sounds cohesive when played together. Little did I know back then, hah!


Yeah, totally x2. I did what i did bcs a friend told me to do it jajaja (noob jajaja), but anyway, years don't come in vane, and i think i learned how to handle the lib, and yes, i love it. Cheers!


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## ModalRealist (Jan 14, 2022)

Pick a better hobby and/or career.


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## mohsohsenshi (Jan 14, 2022)

Henu said:


> I remember when we got Hollywood Strings for work in 2016, and I HATED it. I was using EWQLSO at the time (yes, I know...) and was a complete noob with sample libraries, so I ended up nearly ruining a couple of projects on my standards and deleted the library from my hard drive.
> 
> Fast-forwarding five years and a zillion sample libraries later, I discovered the library again last spring, and now it's a completely different story. In fact, I LOVE it now when I actually know _how to use it_. The sound is gorgeous, the articulations are plenty to give variation to the playing, the runs are crazy good still in 2022 and the whole library sounds cohesive when played together. Little did I know back then, hah!


Second this.
EWHO is not a proper library for starters/unexperienced orchestrators, its workflow, the organisation of articulations, the cc behaviour of each patch is a nightmare for someone know nothing about Vi or instrumentation.

However the situation is you will never know and learn these tools unless you get your hands on them for a while, through two or three projects, a couple of months. Even with 14 days trial like VSL, it won't be enough to discover whether it suits you or not.

Once you become more experienced in writing with Vi, you'll find most of them, no matter from which manufacturers are very nice tools.

For a noob the best strategy is don't buy anything and play with freebies like Komplete Start, SA LABS, Sine Factory, DAW stock sound. Develop your writing skill until you say goodbye to mockup with "sustain everywhere", then you start to purchase one of those decent libraries.


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## labyrinths (Jan 14, 2022)

mohsohsenshi said:


> EWHO is not a proper library for starters/unexperienced orchestrators, its workflow, the organisation of articulations, the cc behaviour of each patch is a nightmare for someone know nothing about Vi or instrumentation.


I'm growing to really like EWHO after picking it up on sale, but even with plenty of VI familiarity, the CC behavior is _still_ a nightmare. I don't understand why they didn't map CC1 and CC11 consistently.


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## mohsohsenshi (Jan 14, 2022)

labyrinths said:


> I'm growing to really like EWHO after picking it up on sale, but even with plenty of VI familiarity, the CC behavior is _still_ a nightmare. I don't understand why they didn't map CC1 and CC11 consistently.


Yup. I kind of understand why they do that 'cause back in the day people used to work with one track per articulation, computer resource is a main issue for Vi. They provided everything they thought you may come across , with some single patches in order to save CPU power and RAMs.

Fortunately nowadays we have someone to clear out for you:


Sam has a series of videos to share which patch and how to use EWHO, priceless info. I wish it existed back in the day.


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## Wally Garten (Jan 14, 2022)

As others have said, it depends on what kind of noob you are. For example, do you already play keys? If the library requires a lot of keyswitching to sound good, it's helpful to be a fluid keyboardist, and if you aren't one, you have to be willing to do some tedious programming. And some libraries really require a certain amount of left-hand chord playing to get the most out of them -- I'm thinking of some Sonokinetic libraries, like the Ostinato series, or something like Impact Soundworks/Straight Ahead Jazz Horns, that assume you will play chords on one part of the keyboard and other stuff with the other hand. It's not impossible, obviously, and if you're patient you can even program it in. But if you aren't a keyboardist (including if, like me, you're just a mediocre one-hand noodler), this stuff is just harder.

But I don't know. Aside from the actual scams, or a few that don't take good care with their DRM -- I lost my Sonivox libraries when I switched computers, iLok notwithstanding -- I don't know that there's really anything to avoid. I made music I liked when I knew basically nothing, just by plonking around until it sounded good to me. Personally, I wouldn't spend a lot at the beginning -- but that's more about my own comfort level than there being anything wrong with the expensive libs even for beginners.


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## kevinh (Jan 14, 2022)

My advice…don’t buy any from this guy…


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## RogiervG (Jan 14, 2022)

kevinh said:


> My advice…don’t buy any from this guy…


Hey, how did you get my picture?


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## PaulieDC (Jan 14, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> To step in and play the naughty, devils advocate then...
> 
> ..._if_ you have the funds available, why not go straight to the biggest, best and most expensive one you can get your grubby hands on? Deeper sampling, better legato, more mics = easier to extract good results.


This isn't a bad idea. SO many guitar students came to me as beginners, toting along some incredibly cheap acoustic, and were so frustrated because it was so hard to play and sounded terrible, not to mention you could fly an X-Wing Fighter under the action. If they spend $1200-$1400 on a 200 or 300 series Taylor, they will be able to play and learn better by 3 orders of magnitude. But wait, spend THAT much? Can't we just get a starter acoustic for a couple hundred bucks? Yead, the X-Wing Fighter model. If you buy the Taylor and it doesn't work out, you can sell it for a loss of a couple hundred bucks. Same loss, better experience, higher chance they stay with it. Me and another hockey buddy tried rental skates at the rink one day back in the 90s... good NIGHT, _Gretsky _couldn't skate on those horrible things. Somehow that analogy fits... if anyone figures it out, please let me know.

I don't suggest Kontakt. Big investment to get a library with the full player, and the things left out there to run on it are Spitfire and other assorted expensive options. Plus you'll get caught up in NI's marketing and start buying Symphony this and Action that and all the rest of it. Thus starts the money trap. I lived it. A noob doesn't need that incredibly complex UI anyway, with micro buttons everywhere. I'm sure that statement won't sit well, lol.

Get enough ram, get BBCSO Core, have great tone and learn to create an ensemble patch in the player, not hard at all. What I would give to go back 5 years and start over, and do just that (OK, no BBCSO then, lol). I still maintain BBCSO Core is the best deal out there for a full-enough orchestra for anyone brand new. Just add piano of choice if desired.

*To answer the actual question:* don't buy the big expensive things such as SpitFire Symphonic, Berlin Main (even SINE simply for the price), and other libraries that require full Kontakt. Not YET. I bought all of those and they are amazing but what a distraction as a noob who unfortunately had a budget for all of that. Now I'm swimming upstream to go back to orchestration basics with one library and then will add a few as needed (BS SFX runs, etc). BOB and BBCSO are great for that but BBCSO is way cheaper. I'd avoid the LABS thing too, because your first impression of an orchestral library sets your thinking about what it's all about. Give a noob an orchestra with a not-so-complex UI and a decent price with a download of less than 30GB and sounds really good. BBCSO Core.

Sincerely,
Your friendly opinionated weirdo.


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## aeliron (Jan 14, 2022)

Vlzmusic said:


> VI "Noobnes" can be different. Once there were tons of older folks who could write a symphony, but knew very little about sound. As the orchestral toys became widespread, many beat producers started to incorporate them, and got interested in cinematic music. Also, many performing musicians started to write orchestral music with VIs. Now there are lots of "real noobs" - having no other background. I think all these categories need different things.


(stands up) I ... am Real Noob.


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## Vlzmusic (Jan 14, 2022)

aeliron said:


> (stands up) I ... am Real Noob.


This shower of sample libraries leaves no choice for us, folks, but to start writing music!! I hope you have had your Christmas savings well spent, on a library noobs SHOULD buy.


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## RudyS (Jan 14, 2022)

mussnig said:


> I really love BBCSO for what it is but I would be cautious recommending it to noobs (as in the title), in general. It needs more RAM than most Kontakt orchestras and after more than 2 years you still can't purge samples.



I thought you are able to purge samples via the technique editor in bbc so?


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## mussnig (Jan 15, 2022)

RudyS said:


> I thought you are able to purge samples via the technique editor in bbc so?


You can purge techniques/articulations but not more.

Say you have an instrument playing some line, then you usually only need a couple of different notes and dynamic layers for them. In Kontakt you can now purge all the samples that you don't need (even if only one articulation is loaded). Especially with legatos and multiple mic positions this saves a lot of RAM.


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## RudyS (Jan 15, 2022)

Ah thanks! Makes sense!


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## vms (Jan 15, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> Get enough ram, get BBCSO Core, have great tone and learn to create an ensemble patch in the player, not hard at all. What I would give to go back 5 years and start over, and do just that (OK, no BBCSO then, lol). I still maintain BBCSO Core is the best deal out there for a full-enough orchestra for anyone brand new. Just add piano of choice if desired.


lol
1) BBCSO Core is jack of all trades master of none
2) SF player is buggy





Spitfire player needing to be reset..


Man... I have HZ strings and hammers.. Tried to use the spitfire player again earlier.. EVERY F%CKING TIME I want to use it there's nothing there and I have to reset it, rendering it useless.. In my naivety I bought hammers a few months ago too.. Essentially a wasted purchase.. Is it just me...




vi-control.net




3) Kontakt is the absolute industry standard, stable, low system requirements
There is no reason for noobs to get BBCSO.


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## ShidoStrife (Jan 15, 2022)

mussnig said:


> You can purge techniques/articulations but not more.
> 
> Say you have an instrument playing some line, then you usually only need a couple of different notes and dynamic layers for them. In Kontakt you can now purge all the samples that you don't need (even if only one articulation is loaded). Especially with legatos and multiple mic positions this saves a lot of RAM.


to be fair, AFAIK kontakt is the only player that purges like that. Maybe OPUS too, I don't have it. Great feature though and I agree everyone should implement it in their respective plugins.


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## Gerbil (Jan 15, 2022)

vms said:


> 1) BBCSO Core is jack of all trades master of none


The master is the person who knows how to use it well, my friend.


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## vms (Jan 15, 2022)

Gerbil said:


> The master is the person who knows how to use it well, my friend.


In that case, stick with Kontakt factory library + get a good reverb plugin, would make a lot more sense.


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## PaulieDC (Jan 15, 2022)

vms said:


> lol
> 1) BBCSO Core is jack of all trades master of none


uh, it’s what you do with it, not what it is. 



vms said:


> 2) SF player is buggy


so was Kontakt at the start.


vms said:


> 3) Kontakt is the absolute industry standard, stable, low system requirements


lol, not forever. So was Pro Tools. Kontakt became that when there was nothing else but unnecessarily complex UIs will eventually fade. 



vms said:


> There is no reason for noobs to get BBCSO.


Hmmm… BBCSO is a library. Kontakt is a sampler. You haven’t mentioned what you’re going to put in it. Nice emphatic statement but what’s the better library that provides a great sounding orchestra for $300? You actually haven’t mentioned a library yet, jsyk…


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## Gerbil (Jan 15, 2022)

vms said:


> In that case, stick with Kontakt factory library + get a good reverb plugin, would make a lot more sense.


I have many, many kontakt libraries as well as BBCSO, and I’m afraid I have to disagree. For a newb, BBCSO is an excellent starter library. I wish it had been around 25 years ago!


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## RudyS (Jan 15, 2022)

Gerbil said:


> I have many, many kontakt libraries as well as BBCSO, and I’m afraid I have to disagree. For a newb, BBCSO is an excellent starter library. I wish it had been around 25 years ago!


I hope. I just bought it and am a complete noob

Having a lot of fun with it so far!


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## vms (Jan 15, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> uh, it’s what you do with it, not what it is.


In that case, just stick with Kontakt factory library.


PaulieDC said:


> so was Kontakt at the start.





PaulieDC said:


> lol, not forever. So was Pro Tools. Kontakt became that when there was nothing else but unnecessarily complex UIs will eventually fade.


Did I say anything about "forever"? For the time being, SF player is buggy, Kontakt is the industry standard. Please dont recommend a buggy sample player to noobs.


PaulieDC said:


> Hmmm… BBCSO is a library. Kontakt is a sampler. You haven’t mentioned what you’re going to put in it. Nice emphatic statement but what’s the better library that provides a great sounding orchestra for $300? You actually haven’t mentioned a library yet, jsyk…


Well you see, I am not that eager to turn this thread into another library-recommending chitchat,
Considering the topic is "What orchestra library should a noob NOT buy", it looks very sus very sus.
Anyway, I am not into debate at all, I will let you have the last word.


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## Bee_Abney (Jan 15, 2022)

vms said:


> Anyway, I am not into debate at all, I will let you have the last word.



I admire your sense of humour!


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## wlinart (Jan 15, 2022)

To answer the original question, i would stay away from most orchestral libraries that are often deeply discounted, like for example the Auddict strings of Europe, Aria London symphonic strings which are now on sale (75+% off). They are often on sale for a reason. Just stay at the most well known ones, which are discussed to death here. And check the threads to see if it would fit you (can you live with the flaws of that particular library), and there's not much that can go wrong.


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## Babe (Jan 15, 2022)

What's wrong with the Kontakt free libraries to get one's feet wet?


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## Rudianos (Jan 15, 2022)

Babe said:


> What's wrong with the Kontakt free libraries to get one's feet wet?


not a thing. A lot of it sounds great. Sure no legato but oh well.

"Lots of posts on which is the best, but which is the worst, or too expensive, or too complicated? What orchestra library should a noob NOT buy?"

The next most comprehensive collection to try is Century Strings/Brass 8dio. Get a lot of articulations. Good sounds. Avoid Aria London Strings - out of tune, bad timing on shorts. This I used on one track and ran away. Still a good library to keep on HD when you wan something not polished. Like an anger scene or ... something. Id avoid libraries with too many mics limit to 2-3 and technical needs. That rules out VSL IMO. And BBCSO Pro.


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## EgM (Jan 15, 2022)

I would recommend any noob not buying ANY orchestra library if you can't handle a modwheel or any other MIDI CC.


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## liquidlino (Jan 15, 2022)

EgM said:


> I would recommend any noob not buying ANY orchestra library if you can't handle a modwheel or any other MIDI CC.


I don't know about this advice. Before I got into orchestral libraries recently, I always used automation lanes in Reaper - which is different to cc data. Worked fine for everything I wanted to do - automating plugins, both synths (filter cutoff etc) and processing fx. Never been a synth keyboard player, so I wasn't recording in the filter from the modwheel, so didn't touch cc data.

Then when I bought first orchestral library I was thrown, as suddenly I *had* to use CC data instead of automation lanes. But it's been zero issue, learnt that in about 2 minutes by watching a youtube vid on managing cc data in Reaper. Basically the same as automation envelopes but stored within the media items.

However, I guess if the noob has never even done automation at all, that could be a slightly steeper learning curve. But not by much - a noob has to learn automation at some point to be able to use the DAW effectively, it was one of the first things I ever learnt.

I don't think we should gatekeep orchestral libraries to only experienced DAW users, that's silly. Learning how to use a DAW is just part of the learning process, and can definitely happen side by side with learning orchestral libraries.


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## EgM (Jan 15, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> I don't know about this advice. Before I got into orchestral libraries recently, I always used automation lanes in Reaper - which is different to cc data. Worked fine for everything I wanted to do - automating plugins, both synths (filter cutoff etc) and processing fx. Never been a synth keyboard player, so I wasn't recording in the filter from the modwheel, so didn't touch cc data.
> 
> Then when I bought first orchestral library I was thrown, as suddenly I *had* to use CC data instead of automation lanes. But it's been zero issue, learnt that in about 2 minutes by watching a youtube vid on managing cc data in Reaper. Basically the same as automation envelopes but stored within the media items.
> 
> ...


It was just a general comment. Of course if you're the kind of person who can get around a DAW and comfortable with automation drawing and all, for sure it doesn't apply to you.

I meant for general synth/keys players who are used to velocity playing and wondering why everything sounds like crap because they didn't use the modwheel/exp at all.


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## Steve Sacks (Feb 22, 2022)

I'd suggest first giving Spitfire's BBCSO Discover version a try ($49 or free if you fill out a survey). Few articulations and only one (?) dynamic layer but you'll get the drift before taking the plunge. For pre-orchestrated string sections, I've found their Originals Intimate Strings and Epic Strings very useful, for $29 each.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Feb 23, 2022)

nolotrippen said:


> OP was "Lots of posts on which is the best, but which is the worst, or too expensive, or too complicated? What orchestra library should a noob NOT buy?"
> 
> Very little mention of what to avoid it's become a recommendation list again. Sigh.


Why do you want a list of libraries to avoid? Makes no sense. It’s like you’re going to Paris and want a list of things _not_ worth seeing 

Much better to get a list of what’s actually recommendable, don’t you think?


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## wahey73 (Feb 23, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Much better to get a list of what’s actually recommendable, don’t you think?


Let the games begin: What orchestra library should a noob buy first?


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## ModalRealist (Feb 23, 2022)

To address the thread’s question a little more seriously than my previous post… I think the library a noob shouldn’t buy is any library they think will either make them better at making music, especially orchestral music, or will make it easier for them to make that music. Bear with me:

All libraries have things they excel at, and things they cannot do, relative to other libraries. A library can make your music sound better in its areas of strength, and make it easier or faster to get to that point. For each individual composer, there will be a number of libraries that really click, because they make the sound the composer wants both well and easily.

But this is all relative to your musical intention!

I think a huge part of what frustrates people with orchestral libraries is that they look to libraries to explore the sound of the orchestra. I know I’ve made this mistake. Looking down patch lists and flicking through libraries going “ooh, that’s that sound” and so on. 

The problem with this is that, I strongly believe, we as composers like to explore sonic territory. That’s why we have GAS after all! And this means that our musical imaginations will often take us in directions the library does not wish to go. This leads to frustration if one was wanting the library to “unlock” one’s freedom in this regard.

So. For a noob, or really anyone, ask yourself if the function the library clearly fulfils - it’s strong suit, if you will - is something you really really care about and want in your music. Want to make epic trailer music in the established style? One of the libraries built to do this will suit. Want to invent a new style of epic trailer music? These same libraries are no longer a _perfect_ fit.

It’s also worth reiterating, I think, that libraries will not let you understand the orchestra, orchestral composition, or so on. They just can’t. It’s mean to them to expect so. Listen to orchestral music whilst reading scores. Take classes. Go to concerts. All this can be done for way less money than the cost of sample libraries so there’s no excuse!!! And: it doesn’t matter what you studied or if you can’t play any instrument: listening to and learning about real orchestras is for you, it’s something you can do - don’t let snobs and money-grubbing institutions tell you otherwise or quash your enthusiasm (no offence to the many great institutions and their wonderful graduates, I should add).

So yes. Don’t buy libraries to learn. Buy them to fulfil the specific musical mock-up function you want to fulfil.


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## thebassist (Feb 23, 2022)

Anything at full price! The overwhelming majority of libraries go on sale, often with huge discounts.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 23, 2022)

Rudianos said:


> Id avoid libraries with too many mics limit to 2-3 and technical needs. That rules out VSL IMO


A LOT of VSL stuff is recorded completely dry, so this is surprising?


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## DSmolken (Feb 23, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Why do you want a list of libraries to avoid? Makes no sense. It’s like you’re going to Paris and want a list of things _not_ worth seeing


The _things_ in Paris are OK, I guess, but there's _French people_ there.


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## liquidlino (Feb 23, 2022)

I'm game to add a "type" of library not to buy first - the more specialist type of orchestral libraries, such as "evolutions", "motions" etc (OAE, SymphMotions etc etc). Not that they're not great, it's more that they are really niche, and they, well, sound just like what they are - pre-recorded fragments of someone elses music. I bought OAE in the ton. It's great! Except that every time I try to use it, I just sound like the Broadchurch soundtrack, and my wife says, "rescoring Broadchurch again are we?". Maybe as I get better, I might figure how to use it to bend it to my will, but so far I haven't.


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## Bee_Abney (Feb 23, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> I'm game to add a "type" of library not to buy first - the more specialist type of orchestral libraries, such as "evolutions", "motions" etc (OAE, SymphMotions etc etc). Not that they're not great, it's more that they are really niche, and they, well, sound just like what they are - pre-recorded fragments of someone elses music. I bought OAE in the ton. It's great! Except that every time I try to use it, I just sound like the Broadchurch soundtrack, and my wife says, "rescoring Broadchurch again are we?". Maybe as I get better, I might figure how to use it to bend it to my will, but so far I haven't.



I've never seen or heard Broadchurch, but I have that library. I bet that when I use it, it still sounds like Broadchurch!


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## mussnig (Feb 23, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Why do you want a list of libraries to avoid? Makes no sense. It’s like you’re going to Paris and want a list of things _not_ worth seeing


Well, in certain cities I would like to know about areas which I should avoid (for saftey reasons). Sure, purchasing a library is not the same as getting robbed at gun point ... but if you fall for some marketing hype and buy a product that you will never use (and maybe also can't resell), then you will probably feel robbed anyways.


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## liquidlino (Feb 23, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I've never seen or heard Broadchurch, but I have that library. I bet that when I use it, it still sounds like Broadchurch!


You should watch it! One of the finest british detective series in recent years - especially series 1 (Series 2 and 3 get a teensy bit repetitive if I'm being overly critical, nowhere near as gripping as the first series). And as with all good detective who-dunnit, a really interesting twist/ending, that doesn't leave you thinking, "what, hang on, what's he/she got to do with it, we only saw him/her once, in the first episode mopping up the floor in the background". And, of course, a great OST from mr Olafur.

Here's the main theme/OST - you might hear quite a bit of OAE-type sounds in there (although I think the OST predates creating OAE with Spitfire Audio).


And this moment in particular, you can hear OAE type evolutions


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## liquidlino (Feb 23, 2022)

mussnig said:


> Well, in certain cities I would like to know about areas which I should avoid (for saftey reasons). Sure, purchasing a library is not the same as getting robbed at gun point ... but if you fall for some marketing hype and buy a product that you will never use (and maybe also can't resell), then you will probably feel robbed anyways.


In Paris, try and avoid places called Restaurants, Cafes and Bars. Cos they're going to rob you blind!!! 10Euro for a beer in some places! And you have to pay EXTRA to sit out on the street!


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## liquidlino (Feb 23, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I've never seen or heard Broadchurch, but I have that library. I bet that when I use it, it still sounds like Broadchurch!


And to prove a point, I just whipped this up since I wrote my last comment. Deliberately in the style of Olafur (if that's not a complete insult to him - obviously he's a million times better than me), but still... there's no escaping this sound with OAE.

View attachment Song 2022-02-23 - OAE Explored.1.mp3


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## Bee_Abney (Feb 23, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> And to prove a point, I just whipped this up since I wrote my last comment. Deliberately in the style of Olafur (if that's not a complete insult to him - obviously he's a million times better than me), but still... there's no escaping this sound with OAE.
> 
> View attachment Song 2022-02-23 - OAE Explored.1.mp3


You don't need him at all, now!


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## Braveheart (Feb 23, 2022)

Obviously, a noob should not buy anything orchestral from Spitfire Audio, East West or Orchestral Tools. Those companies knows nothing about this type of library.


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## Roger Newton (Feb 23, 2022)

nolotrippen said:


> Lots of posts on which is the best, but which is the worst, or too expensive, or too complicated? What orchestra library should a noob NOT buy?


When I started doing orchestral music I went straight in and bought the entire VSL Symphonic Library. No experience of writing any orchestral music whatsoever. Several early efforts (and even some later ones) could only be described as a friggin racket. Sitting around thinking that there is somehow a sort of league of orchestral libraries where it's best to start off at the bottom of the league and work your way up is a bit of a waste of time imo.
Find one you like the sound of and buy it. If it doesn't work out after say a year or a couple of years you've not really lost anything and gained an idea of what you're capable of.
The biggest problem anyone has when doing anything from a midi keyboard is their playing ability. Not sample libraries. Being a moderate to good player is an enormous plus. Not essential but it gives you a big advantage.


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## Roger Newton (Feb 23, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> In Paris, try and avoid places called Restaurants, Cafes and Bars. Cos they're going to rob you blind!!! 10Euro for a beer in some places! And you have to pay EXTRA to sit out on the street!


I'd go further than that and say stay away from Paris atm.


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## MarcMahler89 (Feb 23, 2022)

Braveheart said:


> Obviously, a noob should not buy anything orchestral from Spitfire Audio, East West or Orchestral Tools. Those companies knows nothing about this type of library.


Id argue that Spitfires Albion Range & OT`s Inspire products are pretty noob friendly 
Otherwise i agree.
I started my orchestral journey with Symphobia, and in hinsight, i think that was a good fit back then. No individual instrument sections and legatos, so youre not overwhelmed as a beginner, but a sound which still holds up today, and tons of different patches / articulations to play with.


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## Braveheart (Feb 23, 2022)

MarcMahler89 said:


> Id argue that Spitfires Albion Range & OT`s Inspire products are pretty noob friendly
> Otherwise i agree.
> I started my orchestral journey with Symphobia, and in hinsight, i think that was a good fit back then. No individual instrument sections and legatos, so youre not overwhelmed as a beginner, but a sound which still holds up today, and tons of different patches / articulations to play with.


My comment was a joke.


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## Bee_Abney (Feb 23, 2022)

Braveheart said:


> My comment was a joke.



It's funny because it's true!

(Also a joke.)


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## Bee_Abney (Feb 23, 2022)

DSmolken said:


> The _things_ in Paris are OK, I guess, but there's _French people_ there.



Pardon Monsieur! Les français sont admirable!!


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## porrasm (Feb 23, 2022)

Personally I would not recommend Spitfire for a noob (except maybe BBC). Their libs are often very finicky to get to sound right and the noob noob needs immediate results IMO.


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## MarcMahler89 (Feb 23, 2022)

Braveheart said:


> My comment was a joke.


Your comment actually had some truths in it, thats why i took it literally probably


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## Braveheart (Feb 23, 2022)

MarcMahler89 said:


> Your comment actually had some truths in it, thats why i took it literally probably


Well I wrote that they know nothing about those kind of libraries (orchestral, didn’t meant noob libraries), so that’s why it was meant as a joke as they are among the leaders.


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## briantully (Feb 23, 2022)

As a somewhat relative “n00b” myself (at least when it comes to Kontakt orchestral libraries), I am very grateful for this thread and all of the experienced advice given!

In my personal experience, the “sound”, along with variety of instruments & articulations is only half the battle. The other key is how intuitive and easy the library is to use. Does it inspire you and facilitate creativity/experimentation? Or does it fight you at every turn due to bad UI or poor/non-intuitive design choices?

To that end I would say I have a bad taste in my mouth for the first orchestral library I purchased - Spitfire Albion One. I bought into the hype that it was the ultimate library, but found it very uninspiring and complicated to use. Mind you most libraries worth their salt are going to have a bit of a learning curve to get the most out of them. But I found Albion One wanted to fight me more than inspire me, to the point where I still barely use it.

I’d say try to find libraries that have demos and/or have detailed video reviews so that you can actually see how the library works and if it aligns with your workflow/process.

TLDR; a great sounding library won’t mean much if it fights you more than inspires you ✌️


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## Evans (Feb 23, 2022)

porrasm said:


> Personally I would not recommend Spitfire for a noob (except maybe BBC). Their libs are often very finicky to get to sound right and the noob noob needs immediate results IMO.


I think it depends on what someone is trying to accomplish.

If you're mocking up the best of Haydn, you're going to have a bad time with Spitfire. If you're looking to create something more more "modern" and invoke emotion with as little lift as possible, Spitfire's products are incredible at that. They're like an "easy button" for such things.

In my dumb opinion.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Feb 23, 2022)

It also depends on your actual computer specs. For example, I would steer clear of HOOPUS or the Berlin Series if you only have an i5 with 16GB Ram. This is why it's very important to know the realistic specs required for a given library.


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## pulpfiction (Feb 23, 2022)

nolotrippen said:


> Lots of posts on which is the best, but which is the worst, or too expensive, or too complicated? What orchestra library should a noob NOT buy?


I would advise you not to buy anything at first and do the following:

-test BBC Symphony Orchestra Discover for free: https://www.spitfireaudio.com/bbc-so-discover/application/login/

-Try EastWest ComposerCloud for free. At that time there was an offer where you could test the whole Composercloud for 3 months for free. If the trial period is now only 1 month, you can write to the support and ask for an extension or simply buy an additional month for 20€ (as a student only half). But first download only the Hollywood Orchestra Opus (Strings, Brass etc.).

-test project sam's free orchestra

-maybe you have friends you can test something with?


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## Bee_Abney (Feb 23, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> It also depends on your actual computer specs. For example, I would steer clear of HOOPUS or the Berlin Series if you only have an i5 with 16GB Ram. This is why it's very important to know the realistic specs required for a given library.



Great, great point.


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## rMancer (Feb 23, 2022)

I haven't read the whole thread, but the question is specifically about noobs and right out of the gate, all the decidedly-non-noobish acronyms start flying. BBCSO, SSO, HOOPUS, CSS, CSB, CSW, EWQL, HS, HB, BHCT, GPO, IB, IW, etc.

Also... I have to disagree with the recommendation for CSS (that's Cinematic Studio Strings, for the laypeople ) for a noob. It's such a huge pain in the ass to work with, especially if you're thinking you can just load it up and play. You have to tailor your entire workflow around its very specific demands. Sure, it sounds great, but I've been making music on a computer for decades now and still, holy learning curve! I still haven't figured out how to use it, and I've watched tons of videos, and tried two different Kontakt multiscripts and a variety of Reaper plugins/scripts. CSS makes me feel like a total moron (especially with how everyone here says how easy it is to use), which is not very inspiring to say the least.


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## RogiervG (Feb 23, 2022)

rMancer said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, but the question is specifically about noobs and right out of the gate, all the decidedly-non-noobish acronyms start flying. BBCSO, SSO, HOOPUS, CSS, CSB, CSW, EWQL, HS, HB, BHCT, GPO, IB, IW, etc.



True.. but then again, it's kind of orchestral libraries jargon.. Just like "jargon" in notation: P, MF, F etc. or dim, Fz, tr
Writing eveything out constantly is a bit much don't you think? 
Also there is a list where it explains what it stands for. (or the OP could ask if unsure)


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## Bee_Abney (Feb 23, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> True.. but then again, it's kind of orchestral libraries jargon.. Just like "jargon" in notation: P, MF, F etc. or dim, Fz, tr
> Writing eveything out constantly is a bit much don't you think?
> Also there is a list where it explains what it stands for. (or the OP could ask if unsure)



If you want to use abbreviations, go ahead. But it doesn't work well for everyone, so just be aware that you are making life harder for some. I just cannot think in, or easily interpret, abbreviations. I understand "fff", but I have to decode it every time. It's up to you if you want to make things easier on us or not. There are limits to the lengths anyone can be expected to go.

No hard feelings either way.


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## RogiervG (Feb 23, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> If you want to use abbreviations, go ahead. But it doesn't work well for everyone, so just be aware that you are making life harder for some. I just cannot think in, or easily interpret, abbreviations. I understand "fff", but I have to decode it every time. It's up to you if you want to make things easier on us or not. There are limits to the lengths anyone can be expected to go.
> 
> No hard feelings either way.


But in practice this won't work very well, don't you think?
E.g. "If you use Spifire Audio's British Broadcasting Corporation Symphonic Orchestra Professional library, with the horns you could use fortississimo here, instead of mezzo-forte, also you could add a bit of crescendo towards those notes"
It's getting quite long to write after a while imho. 
Note: I am exaggerating to get the point accross.

Common Abbreviations are quicker to write (less chance of typo's) and are not that hard to remember i think (for majority of cases). Even for you, with a little effort to memorize (knowing them all is hard, for me aswell. but many i do know).

Ofcourse no hard feelings taken.. don't be silly. We're all friendly people here


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## liquidlino (Feb 23, 2022)

rMancer said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, but the question is specifically about noobs and right out of the gate, all the decidedly-non-noobish acronyms start flying. BBCSO, SSO, HOOPUS, CSS, CSB, CSW, EWQL, HS, HB, BHCT, GPO, IB, IW, etc.
> 
> Also... I have to disagree with the recommendation for CSS (that's Cinematic Studio Strings, for the laypeople ) for a noob. It's such a huge pain in the ass to work with, especially if you're thinking you can just load it up and play. You have to tailor your entire workflow around its very specific demands. Sure, it sounds great, but I've been making music on a computer for decades now and still, holy learning curve! I still haven't figured out how to use it, and I've watched tons of videos, and tried two different Kontakt multiscripts and a variety of Reaper plugins/scripts. CSS makes me feel like a total moron (especially with how everyone here says how easy it is to use), which is not very inspiring to say the least.


Which aspect of CSS are you finding a PITA? I wrote a reaper jsfx to provide a lookahead legato function. For artic switching, I use Reaticulation. So then I have a dedicated track for each instrument for legato, set to 333ms, and another track for everything else, with fixed 60ms. Works pretty well like this. I'm one day going to extend the lookahead to use the Reaticulation values to also have shorts in the same track, but for now I'm happy with two tracks. Can't play in legato like this, so I have a third track with no pre delay and marcato artic no spic overlay, then move the midi to the legato track and hand edit velocities for legato speed.


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## Roger Newton (Feb 23, 2022)

rMancer said:


> Also... I have to disagree with the recommendation for CSS (that's Cinematic Studio Strings, for the laypeople ) for a noob. It's such a huge pain in the ass to work with, especially if you're thinking you can just load it up and play.


I'll pull back on my earlier advice and say yes to the above on just this library.

So addendum: if you're new to orchestral libraries (doesn't matter if your new to writing orchestral music), and you like to play in notes on a midi keyboard, leave out CSS for the time being. It sounds great but it's not great to work with. All the plugins ect that are supposed to iron the legato problem, and it's a BIG problem if you like to work fast will be too much of a pain. I would have hoped that this problem would have been sorted out by now with an update.


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## liquidlino (Feb 23, 2022)

Roger Newton said:


> I'll pull back on my earlier advice and say yes to the above on just this library.
> 
> So addendum: if you're new to orchestral libraries (doesn't matter if your new to writing orchestral music), and you like to play in notes on a midi keyboard, leave out CSS for the time being. It sounds great but it's not great to work with. All the plugins ect that are supposed to iron the legato problem, and it's a BIG problem if you like to work fast will be too much of a pain. I would have hoped that this problem would have been sorted out by now with an update.


Totally agree. CSS was my first orch library, and made a steep learning curve even steeper. Plus there's no perc or harp sections yet, so can't complete the orch. Bbcso or Nucleus is a much better starting package I think.


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## Bee_Abney (Feb 23, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> But in practice this won't work very well, don't you think?
> E.g. "If you use Spifire Audio's British Broadcasting Corporation Symphonic Orchestra Professional library, with the horns you could use fortississimo here, instead of mezzo-forte, also you could add a bit of crescendo towards those notes"
> It's getting quite long to write after a while imho.
> Note: I am exaggerating to get the point accross.
> ...



If I wasn't clear, I'll try again.

Some of us have a lot of trouble with abbreviations. This includes me. People's brains work differently. I don't expect everyone else to make sacrifices for my sake. Carry on as you were!

But if you are writing a comment for someone new, that's another matter. Dealer's choice, author's judgement.

Love without expectations, 
Bee


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## liquidlino (Feb 23, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> If I wasn't clear, I'll try again.
> 
> Some of us have a lot of trouble with abbreviations. This includes me. People's brains work differently. I don't expect everyone else to make sacrifices for my sake. Carry on as you were!
> 
> ...


TL;DR: YMMV. TTFN.


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## Wally Garten (Feb 23, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> TL;DR: YMMV. TTFN.


Translation for Bee: 

Technical legato, doctor. Yaks' milk e molto vivace. Tenessee Titans? Football, Nashville.


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## Polkasound (Feb 23, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Some of us have a lot of trouble with abbreviations. This includes me. People's brains work differently.


This point should be taken into consideration by everyone. It saves time to write abbreviations, but since this is a public message board, I recommend people spell out the library once and then use abbreviations later in their post for brevity. That way people who are new to VIs and people whose brains work like Bee's only need to read back a few sentences or paragraphs for quick reference.

For example, most regulars here know what BBCSO means, but to help noobs get their bearings, it would be beneficial to write out "Spitfire's BBC Symphony Orchestra" the first time and then switch to using BBCSO. Just my 2¢.


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## aeliron (Feb 23, 2022)

ShidoStrife said:


> Sorry I'm not familiar with those either. Care to share links?
> 
> That said, I didn't mean that cheap samples are inherently bad. I started on Miroslav CE that I got for $42 I think. Was it good? Yes, _for the price_. Was it usable? Very, for the type of music that I worked on. But if I could start over, I'd save that $42 to buy one from the "big boys" instead.


I think you meant "limited" vs "bad", right?


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## ShidoStrife (Feb 23, 2022)

aeliron said:


> I think you meant "limited" vs "bad", right?


Yes exactly.


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## aeliron (Feb 23, 2022)

rMancer said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, but the question is specifically about noobs and right out of the gate, all the decidedly-non-noobish acronyms start flying. BBCSO, SSO, HOOPUS, CSS, CSB, CSW, EWQL, HS, HB, BHCT, GPO, IB, IW, etc.
> 
> Also... I have to disagree with the recommendation for CSS (that's Cinematic Studio Strings, for the laypeople ) for a noob. It's such a huge pain in the ass to work with, especially if you're thinking you can just load it up and play. You have to tailor your entire workflow around its very specific demands. Sure, it sounds great, but I've been making music on a computer for decades now and still, holy learning curve! I still haven't figured out how to use it, and I've watched tons of videos, and tried two different Kontakt multiscripts and a variety of Reaper plugins/scripts. CSS makes me feel like a total moron (especially with how everyone here says how easy it is to use), which is not very inspiring to say the least.


The constant re-humbling experience provided by CSS is part of the creative process


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## Lee Blaske (Feb 23, 2022)

I really think that a noob's decision of what to buy or not buy needs to be determined more by the type of music they're planning on making. Definitely not a one-size-fits-all world out there. A person interested in making ponderous trailer music needs to buy different libraries from the person planning on recording intimate chamber music, or sweetening pop tracks.


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## aeliron (Feb 23, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> If I wasn't clear, I'll try again.
> 
> Some of us have a lot of trouble with abbreviations. This includes me. People's brains work differently. I don't expect everyone else to make sacrifices for my sake. Carry on as you were!
> 
> ...


ITSM:

IIWCITA
SOUHALOTWA. TIM. PBWD. IDEEETMSFMS. COAYW!


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## Bee_Abney (Feb 23, 2022)

aeliron said:


> ITSM:
> 
> IIWCITA
> SOUHALOTWA. TIM. PBWD. IDEEETMSFMS. COAYW!



Wah?


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## Casiquire (Feb 23, 2022)

Roger Newton said:


> I'll pull back on my earlier advice and say yes to the above on just this library.
> 
> So addendum: if you're new to orchestral libraries (doesn't matter if your new to writing orchestral music), and you like to play in notes on a midi keyboard, leave out CSS for the time being. It sounds great but it's not great to work with. All the plugins ect that are supposed to iron the legato problem, and it's a BIG problem if you like to work fast will be too much of a pain. I would have hoped that this problem would have been sorted out by now with an update.


I'd argue even if you DON'T play the notes in. I often export midi and find CSS to be the most painful string library to use in my whole arsenal


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## aeliron (Feb 23, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Wah?


Sorry, just tried to make it easier to read your post, for those who are good with abbreviations!


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## aeliron (Feb 23, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I'd argue even if you DON'T play the notes in. I often export midi and find CSS to be the most painful string library to use in my whole arsenal


"painful ... arsenal" ...


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## Robert_G (Feb 23, 2022)

Honestly....the best advice for newbies is to stay away from libraries with a brutal interface.

Cinesamples and Chris Hein immediately come to mind.
The Spitfire Studio series interface could also be a nightmare for a newbie.

One of the first libraries I bought was Soundiron Olympus Full. I bought it second hand for a really good price, but as a newbie....I almost gave up the whole hobby because trying to figure it out made me feel like I was out of my league. It was quite intimidating for a newbie and I wondered if all sample libraries were this hard. 3 years later I absolutely love using it (although the interface will still cause you to pull your hair out)....but I would never recommend it to anyone for a first choir. You need experience using easier libraries first. I think Olympus elements would have been a better choice and then to upgrade after.

I'd probably say to stay away from anything SINE until the bugs are worked out....if that ever happens. Nothing worse than a crappy player for a newbie that causes unexpected random issues. The Spitfire Player comes a close second here.

I'd also say to probably lean towards libraries that you can either demo, or resell, or 8Dio flash sales. Ie..I'd feel terrible for someone who put out $999 for The BBC Symphony Orchestra and then didn't like it.


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## Casiquire (Feb 23, 2022)

aeliron said:


> "painful ... arsenal" ...


Ugh i missed the opportunity to call it a pain in my arsenal. I'll do better next time everyone, i promise


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## aeliron (Feb 23, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Ugh i missed the opportunity to call it a pain in my arsenal. I'll do better next time everyone, i promise


I think you let Freud do the work!


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## aeliron (Feb 23, 2022)

Wally Garten said:


> Translation for Bee:
> 
> Technical legato, doctor. Yaks' milk e molto vivace. Tenessee Titans? Football, Nashville.


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## rMancer (Feb 23, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Which aspect of CSS are you finding a PITA? I wrote a reaper jsfx to provide a lookahead legato function. For artic switching, I use Reaticulation. So then I have a dedicated track for each instrument for legato, set to 333ms, and another track for everything else, with fixed 60ms. Works pretty well like this. I'm one day going to extend the lookahead to use the Reaticulation values to also have shorts in the same track, but for now I'm happy with two tracks. Can't play in legato like this, so I have a third track with no pre delay and marcato artic no spic overlay, then move the midi to the legato track and hand edit velocities for legato speed.


I'll have to play around with your script some more (thank you, by the way!) Your method sounds workable and interesting.

I guess that's part of it... having to deal with potentially 4+ different offsets on a single instrument (slow/med/fast legato, and then everything else).

I typically play everything in real time, so I've been trying to use the marcato patch for that. I'm just struggling with the fact that it is practically *required* to go in and manually fine-tune the position, length, and velocity of Every. Single. Note. It feels like I'm doing some convoluted ritual to appease the Legato Gods (LeGodos?) instead of writing music. And every time, it makes me think "This can't possibly be how they intended for this to work... I must be doing something wrong." Hopefully I'll grow into it, because the sound is certainly lovely.

I guess my initial point in responding to this thread is that loading up 3 different instances with 3 different settings, using different offsets and configurations for each, manually fine-tuning each individual note, learning to play 330/200/100ms ahead of the beat, and tracking down some 3rd party scripts after searching various forums for an hour or two, is *not *an experience I'd recommend to a total beginner as "easy."


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## liquidlino (Feb 23, 2022)

rMancer said:


> I'll have to play around with your script some more (thank you, by the way!) Your method sounds workable and interesting.
> 
> I guess that's part of it... having to deal with potentially 4+ different offsets on a single instrument (slow/med/fast legato, and then everything else).
> 
> ...


Yep totally agree. I was really frustrated with CSS myself until I wrote the script. It's why I haven't yet bought CSB or CSW - I'm waiting to see what's in the upcoming updates, hopefully full lookahead is getting implemented natively.

On the other hand - if you look at something like the negative delay database, there's plenty of well loved libraries that have even more variance of timings between different shorts and longs (Look at BBCSO as a prime example, or MSS) - so you can't even have a single track and artic switch all the shorts - in this respect, CSS is very well created - I love switching between Spicc and Staccatissimo and Staccato and Pfzorando all within the same track and within each measure, makes for very interesting performances and easy editing. It's only really the Legato variable timings that was a somewhat un-user friendly decision.






Negative Track Delay Database / Spreadsheet


Heres a direct link to the database: Link EDIT: Ok, here's a Google sheet I've created. If you're interested in contributing values for some instruments (and know how to use a Spreadsheet), let me know and I can give you write access. ---- Original post: Is there a database anywhere of...




vi-control.net


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## Fidelity (Feb 23, 2022)

I would avoid anything without easy to use polyphonic legato and legato that doesn't need serious finesse to start, along with the obvious distractions (inspirational and extended articulation libraries). Also avoid VSL's individual libraries at first if only because SE vol1 is such a good starting point imo (especially now that you get polyphonic legato off the bat with the synchronized edition as long as you tweak the setting in the player). 

But that's just me, and I'm just a hobbyist. Playability and flexability are my primary concerns, and I regretted starting with EWQLSO even if it was leaps and bounds over the XP-30 I owned prior.


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## Trash Panda (Feb 23, 2022)

I’m going to recommend newbies avoiding any libraries with legato as their first. This will help them to not over rely on it, use libraries to their fullest and hopefully cut down on the nonstop bitching about legato in the future so more important topics can get an increased mind share from developers.


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## aeliron (Feb 23, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> I’m going to recommend newbies avoiding any libraries with legato as their first. This will help them to not over rely on it, use libraries to their fullest and hopefully cut down on the nonstop bitching about legato in the future so more important topics can get an increased mind share from developers.


Verily, it does not cease.


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## aeliron (Feb 23, 2022)

rMancer said:


> I'm just struggling with the fact that it is practically *required* to go in and manually fine-tune the position, length, and velocity of Every. Single. Note. It feels like I'm doing some convoluted ritual to appease the Legato Gods (LeGodos?) instead of writing music. And every time, it makes me think "This can't possibly be how they intended for this to work... I must be doing something wrong." Hopefully I'll grow into it, because the sound is certainly lovely.


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## jaketanner (Feb 23, 2022)

Don’t buy any library at all unless you know exactly what type of music you’re going to write and what libraries you need. Trust me, you will waste money left and right otherwise. There are plenty of free libraries that you can use first until then.


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## rMancer (Feb 23, 2022)

jaketanner said:


> Don’t buy any library at all unless you know exactly what type of music you’re going to write and what libraries you need. Trust me, you will waste money left and right otherwise. There are plenty of free libraries that you can use first until then.


If we only bought exactly what we needed, the industry would collapse.


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## jaketanner (Feb 23, 2022)

rMancer said:


> If we only bought exactly what we needed, the industry would collapse.


True.


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## Robert_G (Feb 23, 2022)

jaketanner said:


> Don’t buy any library at all unless you know exactly what type of music you’re going to write and what libraries you need. Trust me, you will waste money left and right otherwise. There are plenty of free libraries that you can use first until then.


Did you ever find your 'killer' cello?


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## jaketanner (Feb 23, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> Did you ever find your 'killer' cello?


I stopped looking. Lol. I ended up using the Blake’s cello for what I needed.


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## Casiquire (Feb 23, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Yep totally agree. I was really frustrated with CSS myself until I wrote the script. It's why I haven't yet bought CSB or CSW - I'm waiting to see what's in the upcoming updates, hopefully full lookahead is getting implemented natively.
> 
> On the other hand - if you look at something like the negative delay database, there's plenty of well loved libraries that have even more variance of timings between different shorts and longs (Look at BBCSO as a prime example, or MSS) - so you can't even have a single track and artic switch all the shorts - in this respect, CSS is very well created - I love switching between Spicc and Staccatissimo and Staccato and Pfzorando all within the same track and within each measure, makes for very interesting performances and easy editing. It's only really the Legato variable timings that was a somewhat un-user friendly decision.
> 
> ...


Don't forget though, MSS has built in tools to eliminate the issue so I'm not sure it's the right example. Live playing uses snapper scripting so there's very little delay, and playback is delayed consistently so there's virtually zero actual variance


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## liquidlino (Feb 23, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Don't forget though, MSS has built in tools to eliminate the issue so I'm not sure it's the right example. Live playing uses snapper scripting so there's very little delay, and playback is delayed consistently so there's virtually zero actual variance


So the negative delay database isn't right? there should be a consistent pre-delay across the board for MSS?


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## Casiquire (Feb 24, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> So the negative delay database isn't right? there should be a consistent pre-delay across the board for MSS?


I'm not sure what would be fair, it's an even 400ms lookahead, otherwise you can control the delays even without using the Lookahead by using tightness features, so it's not exactly set in stone


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## Wedge (Feb 24, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I'm not sure what would be fair, it's an even 400ms lookahead, otherwise you can control the delays even without using the Lookahead by using tightness features, so it's not exactly set in stone


It varies, seems either 360ms or 400ms mostly, but it also has the delay listed so you can avoid the random guessing/ dragging to fix.


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## Roger Newton (Feb 24, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I'd argue even if you DON'T play the notes in. I often export midi and find CSS to be the most painful string library to use in my whole arsenal





rMancer said:


> If we only bought exactly what we needed, the industry would collapse.


I've been doing that for years when it comes sample libraries and this why I have so few. The way I see it, most of this stuff you can't sell. One thing I've trained myself to do with anything over the years is research. I like doing research. 
If a sample library isn't going to be useful to me in terms of making money, it just isn't viable. Same unviable library could be very viable to someone else that writes entirely different material.


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## GMT (Feb 24, 2022)

A noob should never buy ... Screw it. Buy everything and then you will be as poor and miserable as the rest of us.


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## Robert_G (Feb 24, 2022)

jaketanner said:


> I stopped looking. Lol. I ended up using the Blake’s cello for what I needed.


That's good to hear. I was getting concerned when the thread hit 16 pages and you hadn't found one yet.


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## Casiquire (Feb 24, 2022)

Wedge said:


> It varies, seems either 360ms or 400ms mostly, but it also has the delay listed so you can avoid the random guessing/ dragging to fix.


It does not vary when lookahead is enabled, it's an even 400.

Unless you mean the 40ms delay for auto-divisi? That takes it up to 440. But it still does not vary in playback


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## Mr Sakitumi (Feb 24, 2022)

Nucleus Core (obviously on sale or BF) and BBC Discover Free (through a survey and the option for a better upgrade during BF or any other Spitfire Sales to BBC Core, if that’s the sound you’d prefer).

This what I’d tell myself if I was starting out before discovering the vast world of orchestral sample libraries and before getting into any specialist section libraries.

I don’t have Nucleus, but have the Jaeger, Cerberus, Talos etc NI bundle, which gives me an insight of what is on offer with it.

Nucleus is consistent in sound and programming with Audio Imperia, the Pyramid interface is top notch for anyone starting out to understand, work and customise to their own taste…plus it works on the free Kontakt Player.

And being in Kontakt, the purge option is great for low resources and the general ram and ssd/hdd footprint of Nucleus is light.
Only 2 mic options with bread and butter articulations, so you’re not overwhelmed and able to just get on with composing.

The Modern mic option (and the light Talos brass added)…allowing you to get into the more cinematic, hybrid, trailer type orchestral stuff and the Classic mic option (well not classical, but less hyped) for a more ‘conventional’ orchestral approach.
The updated version offers more woodwind soloists and a harp.
And there’s even a choir.

The ensembles and performance patches are also a great help for any noob starting out in the world of orchestration for composing.

plus, when you start expanding into specialist libraries, Nucleus can still be useful and supplement with its sound offering for the modern cinematic, trailer, hybrid approach.

Disclaimer, I‘m not affiliated to/or endorsed by Audio Imperia, but appreciate what they offer to beginners, hobbyists and professionals
and how they deliver great consistent products.


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## AndyP (Nov 27, 2022)

It's like computers. The problem is usually sitting in front of the screen.


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## ZeroZero (Nov 28, 2022)

Opus is 299 dollars today only


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## doctoremmet (Nov 29, 2022)

ZeroZero said:


> Opus is 299 dollars today only


Better grab it at JRRshop with discount code GROUP:


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## DoubleTap (Nov 29, 2022)

I have a proposition and a question.

The proposition is that the best library for a newbie is the one with the best support, and by support I mean tutorials and other users to ask questions of. My view is that with electronic music, Ableton is the best DAW* for a beginner because it’s the most popular. If you’re looking at a video tutorial or you trying to figure out how to do something and you’re not even sure how to ask the right question (“how do I make that donk-donk sound like Daft Punk use?”), then you’re much more likely to find something helpful from someone using Live as the DAW, and by using that DAW you don’t then need to translate an unfamiliar GUI and guess what they’re doing. It helps you learn more quickly. 

So the question is whether any library is equivalent, and has that kind of ubiquity. I’m not sure there is but I may just not have noticed. 

*(I’m not saying that it’s the best DAW of course, that’s obviously Logibasewig Pronendo Tooldio One. Or Audacity.)


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## antanasb (Nov 29, 2022)

DoubleTap said:


> I have a proposition and a question.





Laurin Lenschow said:


> I think the best first step is to buy one all-encompassing orchestral library like BBCSO Core or Nucleus to get your feet wet and to see if you like that particular developer's take on orchestral samples.


BBC Core and Nucleus are, I think, the most popular choices, as mentioned by @Laurin Lenschow. Personally, I don't drool over the Nucleus sound. The BBC is much nicer to my ears. That is so despite the increadible popularity and ease of use of Nucleus, which is much more popular than the BBC Core (at least that is the picture I built up)...

You can wrangle with occasional round robins, failed timing of samples or even abrupt attacks on longs. There are many things you can do. But inherent sonic quality of the library or synth will stay despite your best effort to change it. And as there will be quirks and things you don't like about every library, it better be one which you like. Will be easier to fight with it when you like the end result and find it inspiring..

Also, I would highly advise to look for options that has multi mics. BBC Core has an upgrade path to Pro. Nucleus -- not, despite the popularity. And mics can alter the sonical landscape quite a bit!


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## Reid Rosefelt (Nov 29, 2022)

There are a lot of ways to define "noob." If you have had training in a conservatory, I don't consider you a noob. I didn't have that, and just wanted to learn.

Here's what I did and what I recommend for somebody like me. I know it's the opposite of what somebody said before.

I just bought a string library, and really studied it. My feeling was that the absolute minimum for composing for a full orchestra would be having a good knowledge of all the instruments and their articulations. And then you could go on to thinking about orchestration, melody, harmony, counterpoint, and thousands of other things. 

I had played the violin in orchestras as a child and knew all the instruments well. As I sucked at the violin, I was stuck in the second violins section. So I knew what second violin parts were like, as I'd practiced them for years, and played them along with the firsts.

I understood that the time for playing strings as chords was over. There would only be separate solo lines. And I explored that. Do the cellos and the basses play the same thing? I made the second violin parts different from the violins. But what to do with the violas? 

My first solo instruments were the Bohemian Violin and the Fluffy flute. So I composed music for strings and solo violin, strings and flute, and strings and piano. They were the melody.

While I did this I learned how to work the string library and these solo instruments. I deliberately picked ones that were plonkable.

And I went from there, to very slowly learn about all the main instruments in the orchestra, one solo instrument at a time. I watched videos on YouTube, where performers would talk about their instruments. The kind of feelings you could get when you played at the bottom or top of the range, the different articulations, etc. Hearing them speak about how much they loved their instruments moved and inspired me. 

And I took courses and watched videos.

So my advice for a "noob" wanting to compose with a full orchestra would be to walk before you try to run.

Of course, maybe all of you are more talented than me, but this was all I felt I was capable of.

The end of the road for me was that I decided I would never be a competent orchestral composer, so I just stuck with simple arrangements. Doing arrangements with just a few instruments led me to search for interesting colors, and that led me to world instruments.

Anyway, that's all I could be, and it turned out, that's the musician I wanted to be. I like the music I've been able to make.


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## STMICHAELS (Nov 29, 2022)

Reid Rosefelt said:


> There are a lot of ways to define "noob." If you have had training in a conservatory, I don't consider you a noob. I didn't have that, and just wanted to learn.
> 
> Here's what I did and what I recommend for somebody like me. I know it's the opposite of what somebody said before.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your experience. it is great to hear about your Journey. For those with CSS updates 1.7, do you still feel CSS is difficult for noobs to grasp or play or has playability improved?


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