# The Embarrassment Continues ... Live Score: 23 - 3



## tommalm (Nov 27, 2010)

*Re: The GNOMES are BACK ...*

Haha! Fantastic news! Somehow almost every post made by you Tonehammer guys always put a smile on my face :D 

Looking forward to the coming of december! o/~


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## Justus (Nov 27, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

o-[][]-o


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## Dan Mott (Nov 27, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

Hopefuly one of those things will be an epic Taiko library


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 27, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*



Dan-Jay @ Sat Nov 27 said:


> Hopefuly one of those things will be an epic Taiko library



Blimey Dan, how many Taikos can a man have?!!

Looking forward to this year's Gnomehammer fun...


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## Dan Mott (Nov 27, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*



noiseboyuk @ Sat Nov 27 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Sat Nov 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Hopefuly one of those things will be an epic Taiko library
> ...



Muahaha 

I'm obsessed.


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## Dan Mott (Nov 27, 2010)

Folmann @ Sat Nov 27 said:


> Two comments on Taikos:
> 
> 1. Taikos have never been sampled correctly in the realm of commercial libraries - not even close ... yet.
> 
> 2. Taikos are incredibly difficult to record - speaking from personal and painful experiences with them.



Awwww. Common Mr Folmann, I'll pay you big money for it!!!!  

I know you can do it, I feel it. One day... One day.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 27, 2010)

Folmann @ Sat Nov 27 said:


> Two comments on Taikos:
> 
> 1. Taikos have never been sampled correctly in the realm of commercial libraries - not even close ... yet.



I absolutely hate it when a developer makes this kind of statement that is so disrespectful of the hard work of other developers and it makes me very unlikely to ever buy one of his/her products.

People are of course entitled to like or not like what they choose but IMHO If you cannot make Sean Beeson's Taiko library sound good in a mix, whether or not they have been sampled "correctly", you simply do not know how to make them sound good.


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## rJames (Nov 27, 2010)

Folmann @ Sat Nov 27 said:


> Two comments on Taikos:
> 
> 1. Taikos have never been sampled correctly in the realm of commercial libraries - not even close ... yet.
> 
> 2. Taikos are incredibly difficult to record - speaking from personal and painful experiences with them.



Is that a yes?


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## Brobdingnagian (Nov 27, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

Would hope that the strummed acoustic guitar we heard in the demo will be an imminent TH release (if indeed it was a TH product in Beta).

-B


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## Dan Mott (Nov 27, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Nov 28 said:


> Folmann @ Sat Nov 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Two comments on Taikos:
> ...



Hi Jay.

Seans library is great, but its done in a certain style, more like a classic type of Taiko, not the big epic style if you know what I mean.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 27, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Sat Nov 27 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun Nov 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Folmann @ Sat Nov 27 said:
> ...



Reverb, EQ and compression can fix that in a hurry, if you know how to use them.

That said, there is a big difference in what you said and what I quoted.


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## Ed (Nov 27, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sat Nov 27 said:


> Folmann @ Sat Nov 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Two comments on Taikos:
> ...



He isnt saying you cant make it sound good, he is saying it hasnt been sample "correctly". That can mean a lot of things, it doesnt mean every single sample that has come before it is crap.


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## schatzus (Nov 27, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

Sorry to say this to you but Troels has enough cred in my eyes that I will have to whole-heartedly agree with him as a policy. (Those DOW2 Taikos sound pretty damn good though).


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## synthetic (Nov 27, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sat Nov 27 said:


> I absolutely hate it when a developer makes this kind of statement that is so disrespectful of the hard work of other developers and it makes me very unlikely to ever buy one of his/her products.



I absolutely hate it when Jay Asher craps all over a developers announcement of a month of sales, new library releases and free libraries. Honestly it's the main reason I don't visit this board anymore. Can't he go back to NS?


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 27, 2010)

FWIW, I'm wishy-washy in the middle. I can definitely see Jay's point. I've heard real live taikos, I've heard sampled taikos (hell I've even recorded them), and to create the impression that no-one has even come close to sampling it well is surely hyperbole at best. And sure, it does sound a little disrespectful of other very talented developers, one of which in particular has only just released an excellent sounding range of Taikos.

On the other hand, it doesn't sound like a war crime to me either. Troels is proven supremely talented and also has product to sell, so I take his words in that context. Most Devs will perhaps overstate their case a tad from time to time - nature of the beast.


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## Dan Mott (Nov 27, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

I too agree that Taikos haven't been in par with the commercial releases thus far, not to say that there hasn't been a decent library out there.

1. Seans library. I love it. You can make a big sound by using not only compression and EQ, but also layering the 4 different Taikos with the big FX patches. Still the tone of this library is not quite in the style I'd prefer personally. I like the big epic style that many have produced with their own custom libraries. I think sometimes Sean's library can sound mechnical because of the like of RRs and it sounds as though it wasn't done in a performance type of way. When you are playing fast, you always come across the same layer popping up randomly and everyone knows how irritating that can be. This is worked around be alternating between layers, but when playing just very loud and fast, it just doesn't work for me personally that's all, The whole tone.

As for Tonehammer's epic drums, those are impossible to make sound bad even if you tried. The amount of RRs and layers is what makes a drum library come alive which is why they're so popular. Oh... and let's not forget the beautiful tone of the Epic drums. Simply brilliant.

2. DOW2. These have been my favourite Taikos thus far. I love the sound of them and they're close to what I imagine having at my grasp all the time. The only issue I have with those is the layers. The loudest layer just doesn't sound like someone has really hit the thing hard, and the 3 layers below that sound really similar. Alot of libraries have this issue where the loudest layer isn't really loud so when you are playing hard for instense moments, it seems as though the player isn't putting in that oomph you need. That's just my opinion. I'm fussy so. Tonehammer's absolutely smash when you want them to, without EQ or compression these can really sound like you are about to break the drum it's self. This is why I knew an epic Taiko library would be a massive hit if done like the others. I yeahhh it would and you all know it. 

I liked Troels's statement because I'm glad that he is aware of this because I personally thought I was alone. All developers say this kind of stuff and what they say is generally true IMO (So and so has never been done before, correctly). Alot of developers have said this, Nick, Thomas J, Doug Rogers, VIR2, pretty everyone who has released histroy of creating a new generation library of older ones.

Dan.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 27, 2010)

synthetic @ Sat Nov 27 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sat Nov 27 said:
> 
> 
> > I absolutely hate it when a developer makes this kind of statement that is so disrespectful of the hard work of other developers and it makes me very unlikely to ever buy one of his/her products.
> ...



So you think it is perfectly OK for him to say that no other developer has ever done it "correctly" ?

And I do still visit NS.


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## rabiang (Nov 27, 2010)

post deleted.

reason: off-topic


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## wesbender (Nov 27, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sat Nov 27 said:


> So you think it is perfectly OK for him to say that no other developer has ever done it "correctly" ?



I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with what he said.

The way I see it, he likely has a very specific sampling technique in mind, which he views as the correct way to do it. There has been nobody thus far who's done it like what he has in mind, so as far as he's concerned, nobody has done it correctly.

He didn't directly criticize anyone or single any other developers out, so I don't see any reason to interpret it as an insult to them.

It's only offensive if you want it to be.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 27, 2010)

wesbender @ Sat Nov 27 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sat Nov 27 said:
> 
> 
> > So you think it is perfectly OK for him to say that no other developer has ever done it "correctly" ?
> ...



There is never only one "correct" way to do a library and if you say that no one else has done it correctly it is an implied criticism and in my mind, disrespectful. Why not simply say, "if we do it, we have a way of doing so in mind that will be different from any other library we are aware of."

Let's put the shoe on the other foot. Requiem was released before Voxos. If the Cinesamples guys had come on here and announced, 'Until now, no sample developer has recorded a choir library correctly. We are pleased to announce that we are coming out with one that finally will be."

Do you think Mr. Folmann would have taken that well?

You are entitled to view it differently and I respect that but I am allowed to state my opinion and in my opinion, it's crummy.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 27, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*



kb123 @ Sat Nov 27 said:


> Sampling, by definition, is an approximation to the original sound. All a developer can do is provide the best approximation that they can. It is therefore purely subjective to say that a library has been sampled correctly or not as it is dependent on too many variables to be a black or white fact.



Bingo.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 27, 2010)

Folmann @ Sat Nov 27 said:


> Asher. I think you are absolutely right and I should have been more thoughtful in my initial statement. We obviously don't want you to any feel hate and it is my responsibility to attempt to reverse this.
> 
> I realize you are a wealth of knowledge and have an incredible understanding of percussion and how to record and process it.
> 
> ...



I have no special knowledge of sample recording or engineering technique. The one thing I have learned however from 62 years of life and experience that I am absolutely certain of is that NO ONE, not me, not you, has an exclusive lock on the knowledge of how to record anything "correctly." There are always myriad "correct" ways.

And you are not significant enough to my life for me to hate. I reserve hate for people who do horrendous things. You are only guilty of arrogance.


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## Animus (Nov 27, 2010)

Folmann @ Sun Nov 28 said:


> Asher. I think you are absolutely right and I should have been more thoughtful in my initial statement. We obviously don't want you to any feel hate and it is my responsibility to attempt to reverse this.
> 
> I realize you are a wealth of knowledge and have an incredible understanding of percussion and how to record and process it.
> 
> ...



It's a pretty amazing technique. I was in his studio and he magically made bongos sound like a epic taiko ensemble, I shit you not! The kungfu is strong with this one. So I am positive if you just come out with a Epic Bongo library and include presets designed by Asher it will cover all bases.


:lol:


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## NYC Composer (Nov 28, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

so that guy from Battlestar Gallactica who everyone lionizes-he only uses live taiko ensembles?


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## NYC Composer (Nov 28, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Sat Nov 27 said:


> FWIW, I'm wishy-washy in the middle. I can definitely see Jay's point. I've heard real live taikos, I've heard sampled taikos (hell I've even recorded them), and to create the impression that no-one has even come close to sampling it well is surely hyperbole at best. And sure, it does sound a little disrespectful of other very talented developers, one of which in particular has only just released an excellent sounding range of Taikos.
> 
> On the other hand, it doesn't sound like a war crime to me either. Troels is proven supremely talented and also has product to sell, so I take his words in that context. Most Devs will perhaps overstate their case a tad from time to time - nature of the beast.



I don't know if 'overstatement' is what it is when one defines 'correctness' in sampling.
I always thought there were multiple paths to getting something good done.

The line between confidence and arrogance is indeed a thin one. Maybe equal parts of both are necessary to achieve great things,I dunno. In any case, Troels, I would beg you not to become the new EW, from an attitude perspective. We already have the old EW, and your company has surfaced as a much more welcoming and open one, as far as I can see. One with a sense of humor, and not so thin-skinned. I didn't have much of a problem with 'correct', but your responses to Jay, I sorta do.

Oh, btw, I don't know shit from shinola about taikos, so if you want to direct some withering comments my way, feel free. I'll make up some effects chains and expound about flux capacitors


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 28, 2010)

Yeah. Umm... Troels.... forgive, but I'm not sure this is an especially wise road to go down. Jay has never claimed to have super-special skills, why try and therefore make him look silly here? The implication of course is that you know far more than he does. And as far as creating sample libraries goes, that's no doubt true, but there's not much wrong with Jay's ears imho - and that's his original point, really. There are existing products that do sound good. And from us end users perspective, that's all that counts.

Can they be bettered? Surely (and Dan's points taken). However, IMHO it's hard to imagine a genuine quantum leap forward which is what you suggest. BettER? Sure. No need to trash the existing stuff though....

$0.02 peace love understanding Tonehammer rocks tidings comfort joy etc etc


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## lee (Nov 28, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

Every developer believes more or less that his/her own approach to producing a specific library is better than other developers. Sure, correct is a strong word, but as there are many different purposes with music and samples, it´s not hard for me to see why someone would state his approach is more correct (as long as we understand his ideas of correct is subjective, but may still be true for alot of people) for a specific purpose.

/Johnny


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## manyfingers (Nov 28, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

peace pipe anyone?! as entertaining as this thread is Troels does acknowledge his choice of words may not have been appropriate aò  f   ¹,  f   ¹,¯  f   ¹E  f   ¹E1  f   ¹Nu  f   ¹N»  f   ¹XË  f   ¹Y  f   ¹[Ò  f   ¹[è  f   ¹t8  f   ¹tÊ  f   ¹„  f   ¹„f  f   ¹ˆø  f   ¹‰J  f   ¹—P  f   ¹—Ú  f   ¹›Ð  f   ¹›è  f   ¹E  f   ¹„  f   ¹Æ  f   ¹ž  f   ¹±  f   ¹±î  f   ¹µ  f   ¹µu  f   ¹¶  f   ¹¶Q  f   ¹¹e  f   ¹¹~  f   ¹¹«  f   ¹º  f   ¹»˜  f   ¹


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 28, 2010)

Sorry to hear you take such a dim view of us all!

Troels, perhaps you should set the ball rolling by specifically saying what is deficient in current libraries? Sean Beeson and DOW2 have already been cited. Stormdrum 1's aren't too shabby either despite their age - I count up to 23 velocity layers, for example.

It might help us all better understand if we knew where you think the current problems lie?


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## Daniel James (Nov 28, 2010)

Folmann @ Sun Nov 28 said:


> I don't mind taking a qualified debate about *why I don't think* Taikos have been sampled correctly in the commercial realm of sampling



I think people are taking issue with how you originally stated, as fact, something which is merely your personal opinion (something you appear to have later clarified, as highlighted in quote)

Dan


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## manyfingers (Nov 28, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

as this thread draws to a rapid close i still stand behind tonehammer and every other library developer out there. i do this because the quality of the libraries out there speak for themselves. everyone is entitled to their opinion and a forum like this is a means to express that. i'm glad people feel passionately in what they believe and i applaud such dedication. i wouldn't be able to make the music i do without the help of these people and on that basis will never make a snap judgement to stop buying because, ultimately, i'd be shooting myself in the foot..

ironically the subject name to the entire thread has become a self fulfilling prophecy..

troels and all at Tonehammer i'd just like to say that i really appreciate and anticipate the december offers..THAT'S what this posting was all about..

cheers,

chris


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## Ed (Nov 28, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*



NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 28 said:


> so that guy from Battlestar Gallactica who everyone lionizes-he only uses live taiko ensembles?



i have been told he does, only he uses one guy multitracked a bazillion times and then Steve Kaplan makes it sound like sex in your brain.


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## Ed (Nov 28, 2010)

Folmann @ Sun Nov 28 said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> I am here to take a constructive discussion about principles of Taiko recordings, which is a very, very complicated topic. I actually appreciate Ashers input and looking forward to hearing his examples. I would also appreciate if others would chime in with their experiences, since it could benefit us all.
> 
> Keep the thread constructive and to the point.



Well as you know I love however BSG does it  I like DOW2, but something still not quite right for me with those takios. Even though the sound is almost there. 

Speaking of DOW2, can you consider recording some Shime Daikos? They seem to sound so good mixed with Taiko.


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## Dan Mott (Nov 28, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

That's what I love about the Taiko, the kind of natural muffled sound with alot of beautiful natural low end on them. They are a very good base element for layering. Anything layered with these babies get's you this amazing sound, especially when layering more of a high end drum to make of for the attack.

The Taiko still has pretty nice attack though, not saying it doesn't, especially when it's played loud. Beautiful.

DOW2, as I said, IMO almost there. Just the whole velocity thing annoyed me a little, but still very useful for a base of layers.

Sometimes they're very good by them selves. Sometimes I don't want the tinny attack that many percussive instruments have, which I use EQ for, but then it sounds odd and takes all the natural beauty away. So the reason I love it is because of the tone, the thickness and the 'not to much highendness'.

I don't have any experience recording them, but my god I'd have a go if I had the chance and I'd experiment everything untill I got it right. I suppose experimenting with recordings is the only way one can find out how to get it just right and I'm sure there are a bunch of techniques to try for this.

Anyway. Peace.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 28, 2010)

I recorded a five piece ensemble for a TV show recently. I remember the mic gain -10db! I figured we could just have put the XLRs out, we'd still have heard it...

I remember I did heavily EQ the mic on the largest drum, an absolute monster that was. The depth just didn't come through otherwise.


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## Dan Mott (Nov 28, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

Heck. I actually had no idea it was this difficult. I was thinking in my somewhat oblivious mind for this topic that Tonehammer could of just used the same technique they did with the Frame, Toms and Dhol drums. Wouldn't that be grand.


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## JohnG (Nov 28, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

I think Troels is right in pointing out that weird combination of enormous, deep power on the one hand, and driving stick-hits-drum-head on the other. I've had taikos played live on cues and the recordings, compared with the live experience, don't capture all of it.

I've been using World Impact's Global Percussion library. It has quite a large number of taikos and I have enjoyed those in writing.

I don't know if it's reasonable to expect any playback to have enough oomph to really hear a taiko as such. It's one of the drawbacks of recording with samples and some live players that the director may hear, in the end, only the music either auditioned on his laptop speakers, or at the dub stage when it's cluttered with everything else.

One of the great things about recording a score live is that the director is sitting there with his picture and only music up -- which gives him time to learn what the score is really doing to his picture.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 28, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

Just to be totally clear and be done with this:

I am not a sampling expert and do not claim to have any expertise or knowledge of it. Folmann is a terrific sample developer and can learn nothing from me about sampling. What he _can_ learn from me of he is open to it, is the value of recognizing that there will be many "correct" ways to record _any_ instrument and so while he is entitled to be proud of his skills and knowledge, it need not be expressed in a way that implies disrespect for the efforts and knowledge of his competitors. As good as he is, I see no evidence that he is in a league of his own.

I do not think what Folmann said was monstrous and did not suggest having him drawn and quartered. I do think it was rude and tacky so I called him out on it. Once again, had the 2 Mikes said something similar when they released Voxos, which they did not, I would have done the same on Folmann's behalf.


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## David Story (Nov 28, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

The instruments we like most are the toughest to record. And to play. They have a balance of power and detail that is elusive.

I wish Tonehammer, or someone, provided tutorials on how to play/program their libraries. It's software, after all.


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## juliansader (Nov 28, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*



kb123 @ Mon 29 Nov said:


> I see no depth or substance in the statement “Taikos have never been sampled correctly in the realm of commercial libraries - not even close ... yet”
> 
> I think you saw an opportunity to take a cheap shot at your competitors, and in your arrogance expected no one to question or correct your statement.



I am not sure why some people are so offended by Troels's statement. I think it is obvious that there are many instruments that have not yet been "sampled correctly in the realm of commercial libraries - not even close". I would add:
- duduk
- orchestral and Celtic harp
- solo French horn
and many others. Isn't this a fact that is publicly lamented again and again on the forum by many users?


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## NYC Composer (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

Troels-it seems odd for you to take the stance of being above the fray, when you initiated the fray in the first place. Here's how it came off to me:

*WE AT TONEHAMMER™ HAVE SUPERIOR WAYS OF DOING EVERYTHING. YOU WILL NOW CONCEDE TO OUR BRILLIANCE. TAIKOS WILL BE DEALT WITH IN DUE TIME AND, FOR A CHANGE, CORRECTLY. 

THAT WILL BE ALL.*

Following that, you have taken an attitude that is amused, benign, sorrowful for the folly of others. Hmmm.

But perhaps I misread you. :mrgreen: 

Of course, I have no doubt that your Taiko samples will be well done. Your art gets much respect from me and many others.

Standard disclaimer: damn. I have no standard disclaimer. I need to get one.


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## Dan Mott (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

Look. I'm not just saying this because others have, but I too think Troels is very unique. Infact, I feel lucky to even have guys like him to make such expressive and realistic sounding libraries avaliable to us when guys like me cannot play a percussive instrument for nuts.

I don't think anyone could point out another Epic drum library out there that has as many layers and RRs as Tonehammer's have, not to mention the same tone. Every library Troels has worked on that I've purchased I loved, and I trust the company when it comes to standards.

I have alot of confidents in the company, aswell as many others. Almost everyone I've mentioned Tonehammer libraries to and showed them, were amazed and surprised that the sounds were actually samples.

Dan.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

+1 TJ and Troels!


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## wesbender (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

I had no intentions of re-joining this "discussion", but what the hell.

Without quoting specific posts, which I don't really feel like doing, I'll just say a few things.

First, this is a commercial announcement thread, not a place to come in and "call someone out" for an innocent comment. It was obviously just baiting an argument, which isn't at all necessary here. 

Regarding the comment itself, when someone says something that straddles the line between confidence and arrogance, there's always gonna be a few who get offended. Was his comment necessary? I don't know and frankly, I don't really care. I don't have a problem with it because Troels has always struck me as a confident guy who knows what he's talking about. If he says something about sampling that's maybe a touch "arrogant", I don't see the issue because as far as I'm concerned, he's earned the right to say it.

Despite my relatively fresh join date, I've been perusing these forums for a few years now. There's a wealth of information here and for the most part the community is kind and helpful. One thing I've really noticed though is how easily offended and touchy some of the people are, which isn't a problem until they start baiting needless arguments that just end up dividing the community and pissing people off - a phenomenon that happens a bit too often around here.

Anyway, back to the original topic - Troels, you're awesome, Tonehammer is awesome, Gnomehammer is awesome and I will be buying many more of your products in the future. Looking forward to the December releases.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*



Thomas_J @ Mon Nov 29 said:


> kb123, you are wrong - Troels IS unique in what he does, from sampling to music composition. In my circle of composing peers, few libraries get as much praise as the Tonehammer libraries, and the people praising them are at the very top of their game. I've found Troels to have a lot of humility. He does not strike me as someone who has an interest in downplaying his competitors. He has a very focused and unique vision on sampling that has quickly earned him the greatest respect among the cream of composers working in the entertainment industry today. If Troels says something hasn't been done right, I am not only thrilled by the prospect of him giving it a go, I am 100% confident that he will do it better. I personally think it makes for completely uninteresting discussions when anything but ass kissing is considered an arrogant and disrespectful way of participating on the forum. Let's call a spade a spade. Stop being so touchy touchy about everything and litter every thread with your moral police work (which by the way is as unproductive as it is arrogant - who are you to claim superiority on the topic of social ethics?). As far as you guys not buying any future Tonehammer products that just speaks volumes for where your priorities lie, and you're not hurting anyone but your own production values. Sorry, but you guys picking on Troels for his innocent little comment on taikos seems wrong on many levels to me. The embarrassment continues indeed...



I will assume, then that Troels has no specific interest regarding whether anyone buys his libraries-or you regarding yours, for that matter? Are you above all that?

You're both very very talented, hard working people. People buy your products and thank you for them, as well they should. Sometimes, however, as you both have presences on the forum (which are largely appreciated) you might say something that frosts someone's onion. It could happen. It does happen. Supercilious commentary back from you might make one think you don't give a crap about your customers if they're not properly thankful, or if they take issue with something you say. That would be unfortunate, counter-productive and probably oversensitive.

As a customer of both E.W (a major one) and Tonehammer (a minor one, but certainly planning to move up) I think I'll just say my piece when i want to. It's easy enough to ignore someone you disagree with, yes?

Last time I looked, sign said 'forum'. Cheers.

(btw, does your spirited and collegial defense of Troels constitute "moral police work"?)


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## EvilDragon (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*



NYC Composer @ 29.11.2010 said:


> (btw, does your spirited and collegial defense of Troels constitute "moral police work"?)



Good question.


Appropriate thread title.


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## mverta (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

I had not actually checked out Tonehammer's work until just now. Some really nice stuff there. However I have to confess that what struck me more than the samples were the product descriptions. While I don't know if they're going to do a taiko or not, I've already written the product description for it:


_As we stood in the doorway of the temple, we knew our long search was over. There, in the golden light of the rising sun: the definitive odaiko, her resonant frame vibrating with history. We had come as tourists, but found ourselves instead as sacred caretakers in feudal Japan, whose only charge was perserving this mighty taiko’s legacy; the war-like, thunderous cry she made at her master Tzu’s command. And this was only the beginning. After spending months in the servitude of our Japanese masters, we were, finally, allowed to capture every nuance of performance from a wide set of nationally-treasured drums using proprietary microphones crafted from local tree bark. From deep, resounding slams to the earthy, wooden ka of the rims, every jade facet of these beautiful instruments awaits your declamatory touch. In short, kids, this ain’t your daddy’s taiko. We could go on, of course, telling you about the multitude of controller options you have for tensioning and choice of bachi, but frankly we’re running out of hyperbole. “Isn’t 4 paragraphs of flowery imagery that reads like a community-college creative-writing final kind of overkill for a freakin’ sample library?” you ask. Not for a sample library this good. It’s more than taiko. It’s Tonehammer._


 Well, hell. I'd buy it.


_Mike


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## Lex (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

I think this thread just tops it.

..this is how i see it.

TONEHAMMER: HEY VI community, we'r announcing a whole month of freebies and stating that if we ever do Taikos, we'll do them better and with a fresh approach compared to sampled Taikos that are on the market right now.

VI COMMUNITY: Hey Troels, YOU SUCK!


aLex


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## NYC Composer (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*



mverta @ Mon Nov 29 said:


> I had not actually checked out Tonehammer's work until just now. Some really nice stuff there. However I have to confess that what struck me more than the samples were the product descriptions. While I don't know if they're going to do a taiko or not, I've already written the product description for it:
> 
> 
> _As we stood in the doorway of the temple, we knew our long search was over. There, in the golden light of the rising sun: the definitive odaiko, her resonant frame vibrating with history. We had come as tourists, but found ourselves instead as sacred caretakers in feudal Japan, whose only charge was perserving this mighty taiko’s legacy; the war-like, thunderous cry she made at her master Tzu’s command. And this was only the beginning. After spending months in the servitude of our Japanese masters, we were, finally, allowed to capture every nuance of performance from a wide set of nationally-treasured drums using proprietary microphones crafted from local tree bark. From deep, resounding slams to the earthy, wooden ka of the rims, every jade facet of these beautiful instruments awaits your declamatory touch. In short, kids, this ain’t your daddy’s taiko. We could go on, of course, telling you about the multitude of controller options you have for tensioning and choice of bachi, but frankly we’re running out of hyperbole. “Isn’t 4 paragraphs of flowery imagery that reads like a community-college creative-writing final kind of overkill for a freakin’ sample library?” you ask. Not for a sample library this good. It’s more than taiko. It’s Tonehammer._
> ...



Ha! "local tree bark!" Rare stained Yak horn, struck with the dessicated testicles of a long forgotten Yogi!

Actually, I sorta love the literary amusement. Most advertising is pretty dry. I oughta know.

Mike, I fear you're bored.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*



Lex @ Mon Nov 29 said:


> I think this thread just tops it.
> 
> ..this is how i see it.
> 
> ...



So, I take it you feel free to share your opinion with us, then? :wink:


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## mjc (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*



kb123 @ Sun Nov 28 said:


> Folmann @ Sun Nov 28 said:
> 
> 
> > This is the unfortunate destiny of many threads on VI-control and one of the reasons they sometimes lack depth and substance. The moment anybody starts asking for concrete examples people start freaking out and point everywhere else.
> ...


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8  n   ;ñ¯  n   ;ñÇ  n   @N,  n   @Nú  n   _b  n   _l  n   `•ë  n   `–¨  n   `˜  n   `˜Ö  n   c6  n   c6ã  n   pŠ  n   pŠé  n   ƒœw  n   ƒœ|  n   õ¹  n   õÞ  n   •·—  n   •¸  n   žµ  n   §¶/  n   §¶D  n   ¸jö  n   ¸k&  n   ¸m]  n   ¸mv  n   ¸nÎ  n   ¸nð  n   ¸o{  n   ¸o¼  n   ¸qi  n   ¸qà  n   ¸r  n   ¸rˆ  n   ¸{  n   ¸{I  n   ¸„¡  n   ¸„È  n   ¸µö  n   ¸¶(  n   ¸Ø.  n   ¸Ø‹  n   ¸í6  n   ¸î6  n   ¸ñ  n   ¸ñé  n   ¸ú,  n   ¸úd  n   ¸þD  n   ¸þù  n   ¹§  n   ¹Ð  n   ¹0É  n   ¹0ß  n   ¹AÉ  n   ¹Aâ  n   ¹Z  n   ¹Zj  n   ¹b'  n   ¹b±  n   ¹t<  n   ¹tÎ  n   ¹€Ï  n   ¹€ï  n   ¹‘˜  n   ¹‘¦  n   ¹‘Ã  n   ¹‘Ù  n   ¹“  n   ¹“.  n   ¹—  n   ¹—  n   ¹¤’  n   ¹¤·  n   ¹¥í  n   ¹¦  n   ¹±  n   ¹±õ  n   ¹´œ  n   ¹´»  n   ¹ÀÑ  n   ¹Á-  n   ¹ÄÙ  n   ¹Å  n   ¹Ûˆ  n   ¹ÛÓ  n   ¹è}  n   ¹è¼  n   ¹øÚ  n   ¹ù	  n   ¹ÿé  n   º    n   º°  n   ºÐ  n   º(  n   º½  n   ºs  n   º•  n   º  n   º*  n   º,m  n   º,Ì     ò  n   º.  n   º15  n   º2ï  n   º7ñ  n   º8   n   º9×  n   º9÷  n   ºO;  n   ºP  n   ºsï  n   ºt  n   ºx(  n   ºxT  n   º—N  n   º—˜  n   º£B  n   º£×  n   º­  n   º­4  n   º±À  n   º±Ì  n   º²p  n   º²ô  n   ºÝV  n   ºÝ‚  n   ºß  n   ºß3  n   ºñï  n


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## Markus S (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

I say : Bring the TH taikos!


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## dedersen (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*

Gotta love how aptly the thread title was chosen in advance.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*



dedersen @ Mon Nov 29 said:


> Gotta love how aptly the thread title was chosen in advance.



I see it's changed now. Who is embarrassing who I wonder?!

I'm not sure anyone comes out of this too well. Some comments have definitely seemed overly touchy, but I'm not really loving the implication that VI has "no depth" either. Northern Sounds is, imho, a joke - you can only say nice things about those who advertise. And these are the only two places for composers. Flaws and all, this is best place imho. At least we ARE allowed to say what we think. I was chucked out of Northern sounds for typing - yes, typing - the word "Pettinhouse", let alone express an opinion on it. So I really value the free speech here. Viva VI!

Hell, I'm all for a clean slate on this one anyway. Troels has been invited to comment on competitors products and why they're not up to scratch but has declined, so while he's up for a debate it's clearly not THAT debate, which makes the new thread title slightly ironic imho. Fair dos, we're all way OT anyway, tis the season to be jolly - bring on Gnomehammer!

EDIT - good Lord, the title's just changed again. For what it's worth, when I typed this it read "enter those with nothing to say".


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## NYC Composer (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues ... Live Score: 20 - 3*

Okay.

My experience with taiko drum ensembles (and indeed, big drum ensembles in general) are that they are becoming a major, major cliche in film scores and trailers.
They are starting to remind me of the overblown shakuhachi of yesteryear.


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## dedersen (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues ... Live Score: 20 - 3*

Mostly, I am just really anxious to see what you have in store for us in December. I'm worried that it won't leave me any money for presents for the wife and kids...

"But, sweetheart, have you HEARD these Taikos?!".

Fortunately, the Roland Handsonic is getting much love from my three-year old daughter, so maybe I can somehow present any TH libs as a gift to her...


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## Dan Mott (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues ... Live Score: 20 - 3*

"But besides that I really don't have anything to add ... but I will on December 1st ..."


Sooo excited!!!!


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## snowleopard (Nov 29, 2010)

Folmann @ Mon Nov 29 said:


> It would be absolutely unprofessional for me to start commenting on other developers products. But I will state that my favorite developers are Spectrasonics, EW, Project Sam and Cinesamples....



Even then you may be putting yourself in a bit of a bind. I mean, SonicCouture, Sample Logic, Heavyocity, Vir2...these guys have some damned impressive libraries in their arsenal too. 

Mostly agree with you on Taiko. Not an easy drum to sample, even record. A lot of recordings of it to CD don't come close to capturing it. Frame drums and the Dhol aren't easy either, though you guys seemed to do a great job on the latter. If (when?) you guys go for the Taiko, take your time and get it right. 

Great sale, btw!


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## Mike Connelly (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues...*



Ed @ Sun Nov 28 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 28 said:
> 
> 
> > so that guy from Battlestar Gallactica who everyone lionizes-he only uses live taiko ensembles?
> ...



And there's a featurette in the DVD extras about the music that shows a bit of performance/recording, I think it was the last season.


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## InSessionAudio (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues ... Live Score: 20 - 3*

We're currently having a promotion (until Dec 1) on the below - save $20 with coupon code "vic". 
That takes it from its normally low price of $69.99 down to $49.99!






DEMO:
[mp3]http://content.screencast.com/users/NineVoltAudio/folders/MP3s/media/a0f57263-8ec0-4af7-a28d-ddf1c246b89f/TenManTaiko_Demo_01.mp3[/mp3]


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## synthetic (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues ... Live Score: 20 - 3*



NineVoltAudio @ Mon Nov 29 said:


> We're currently having a promotion (until Dec 1) on the below - save $20 with coupon code "troll".
> That takes it from its normally low price of $69.99 down to



Classy.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 29, 2010)

synthetic @ Sat Nov 27 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sat Nov 27 said:
> 
> 
> > I absolutely hate it when a developer makes this kind of statement that is so disrespectful of the hard work of other developers and it makes me very unlikely to ever buy one of his/her products.
> ...



Classy.


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## synthetic (Nov 29, 2010)

Look, obviously they thought they had a different take on recording a taiko drum. Why else would they do it? Do you really think these guys are in it for _the money?_


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## NYC Composer (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues ... Live Score: 20 - 3*

Is that a serious question? Why on earth wouldn't they be? What's wrong with doing great, much appreciated work and turning a profilt? Or building a business to eventually do so?


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## José Herring (Nov 29, 2010)

Folmann @ Sun Nov 28 said:


> Ed @ Sun Nov 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Folmann @ Sun Nov 28 said:
> ...





Since few seem to be adding anything that could help you I thought I'd chime in for what it's worth.

My experience with Taiko libraries has been a disaster to say the least. I find that what you are saying is true. The taiko has an extremely punchy sound with a really low resonance. I find that if you compress them you bring out the attack but lose the body of the instrument. I've heard this sound so many times even on some of Zimmer's scores. I actually did break down and see the BSG miniseries done by Gibbs and then saw the first episode of the series which I assume was done by Bear. Though I'm not sure. The Gibbs taiko has that over compressed sound. All attack and no sustain. That's the sound that I usually get.

If I had to take a guess at what mics to use, I'd use medium diaphram condensors for the attack and large diaphram condensors like a u87 for the sustain part of the sound. I'd also use some Cole mics as a room mic and then senhiesser md421 to pick up extra base tones. I'd probably also stick the senheisser 4 901 on the floor to get more bass. All in stereo pairs of course. Then I'd mix all the mic position to taste. Mix down to stereo and do my edits from that. 

If using the traditional wood sticks I'd also put a couple of small diaphram conderser mics to get the snap of the wood.

I've only dabbled in doing my own samples and I'm not a pro like you so you've probably got it all sorted. But, just thought I'd throw in my 2cents.

I for one would be very happy to have Tonehammer Taikos.

One more thing. I'd not record in a hall but a decent sized studio.

best,

Jose


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## NYC Composer (Nov 29, 2010)

josejherring @ Mon Nov 29 said:


> I for one would be very happy to have Tonehammer Taikos.



That's the funniest thing about this thread-I doubt there's anybody here who wouldn't!

(except maybe the guy who said he'd never buy, etc ... and even there I have my doubts.)

Politics aside, did anyone have an opinion about the Nine Volt ten man taikos? Like I said before, I think taikos are overdone and other than having used them somewhat bombastically, I'm pretty clueless about them, but the ten man thingie sounded pretty good to me. What's missing in their approach?


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## Dan Mott (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues ... Live Score: 20 - 3*

Hello everyone.

I bought the Ten man Taiko and here's my honest review.

Look, Nine Volt Audio, no offense, but when I opened up the library and played with it for a few hours, I deleted it off my hard drive. 

Why? First of all, the sound is pretty decent, but also at the same time really fake and thin sounding. The lack of RRs make this library impossible to not sound mechanical. Not only that there are like 3 RRs, but the RRs sound like they were recorded on different days. I've come across a couple of libraries like this before where it doesnt't sound like it was reocrded in a performance, but on different days of the week, making the RRs completely unrealistic. Not only are the RRs the way I described them, but they have no order. What I mean is that these RRs play random and you might get the odd RR about 4 times in a row which brings more of the robot in this library.

Now, why does this demo sound like I'm talking rubbish? That's because it's using it's only ability which is starting on the highest velocity layer and going down the layers to cover up the RR effect, and if you notice, the loud to soft thing does it through the whole demo. If you are planning on playing fast stuff at similar levels, this is where it completely fails.

I personally was frustrated with my purchase. I clearly am a Taiko fanatic and I rushed into buying it without thinking. I actually don't think this library is even worth buying with the sale price. This library would be better at the price of 29.99 for a small amature library.

If you are going to buy a Taiko library from Nine Volt, get Sean's library 'TAIKO' because you're going to have a hard time with this.


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## Dan Mott (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues ... Live Score: 20 - 3*

These days, you generally just know if a llbrary isn't for you. So a try before buy option is the best bet. I like to narrow it down though. For example I like to blame my self for a while because it might be me that's doing extremely bad programming.

I also use Tonehammer's libraries as a reference. Considering TH's libraries are so easy to make sound fantastic because of the recordings and programming, If you cannot make them sound good, then you really need to look up some tutorials. I do believe that even someone who's fisrt starting out making a drum pattern could still make TH's sound decent.

I just knew that Ten Man Taiko wasn't the library for me from the very first moment I wrote something, using a similar approach to what I did with the Tonehammer stuff. It was pretty much like going from first class samples to economy.

Dan.


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## JustinW (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues ... Live Score: 20 - 3*



Dan-Jay @ Tue Nov 30 said:


> Considering TH's libraries are so easy to make sound fantastic because of the recordings and programming....



Thats great, but is it the norm? If not using their libraries as a control will really gimp your chances of using anything but TH stuff. 



Dan-Jay @ Tue Nov 30 said:


> , If you cannot make them sound good, then you really need to look up some tutorials
> 
> Dan.



Maybe that's what you should have done with TMT.




Dan-Jay @ Tue Nov 30 said:


> ....using a similar approach to what I did with the Tonehammer stuff.



It would seem you didn't take the time to really use the library. You were using it as if it was another library from an entirely different dev.

In your above post you mention the lack of RR and the quality of the RR used. 

You sure RR is the way they go about 'humanizing?' :?


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## Dan Mott (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues ... Live Score: 20 - 3*



JustinW @ Tue Nov 30 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Tue Nov 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Considering TH's libraries are so easy to make sound fantastic because of the recordings and programming....
> ...



I can make other drum libraries sound good, with TMT I could not because it was too mechnical. I did look up turoials and to be honest I can program drums fine. Not that arrogance plays apart because it doesn't, it's just i know I can program drums well when I like the sound ofcourse because it's all about being inspired. Yes, I'm still leanring, but who isn't??? I don't know it all and I'm sure I have a crap load to work on with my drum tracks, but as I said I can get a decent drum sound that I'm very happy with and that others have been happy with in the past. I do not show friends my compositions because I want an honest answer from other composers I don't know very well. PLus, TH's are amazing and it's the way drums should be done!!

I took alot of time to use the library. I had alot of goes at it and I didn't like it. I'm aloud not to like it and I'm aloud an entitled opinion. I would not suggest to anyone to buy this library. As I said, people would have a better time with DOW2 Taikos, or Sean's library. This library is outdated, even though it's somewhat new, the programming is outdated.

Yes, RRs is the way of humanizing. People can say what they want, but when it comes to drums this is damn well essential, and I mean that with a passion. Aswell as guitar libraries and piano libraries, pretty much anyhting that plays repetions needs alot of RRs to sound like one is playing a performance. I actually cannot believe you questioned this part of humanizing. You must be crazy to question it and clearly haven't had experience with many different drums libraries to make it perfectly clear to your own self.

Many layers are important aswell. You shouldn't have to alternate between every single layer to make the drum library sound good, which is where the RRs play a massive part. When I human plays a drum, they choose how hard they want to play in certain sections. So if I got TMT to play loud and fast, it would sound like a robot and also unnatural because I have to alternative between the layers, from lowest to highest which clearly takes away the assumption from the listener that the percussionist is playing loudly. Yes, humans don't play every single not at the same level, that's where you alternate between layers, but because TH has so many layers, you can still alternate realisticly and be able to keep the listener thinking and hearing that one is playing the instrument at loud levels.

Drums is all about performance, and because tonehammer's were recorded in a performance with many alternate RRs, makes it very powerful and less nightmares such as TMT. The only way to make TMT sound OK! is to alternate between the loud and soft layers like in the demo and that's about it. 3 RRs playing random is not going to cut anyones standards and you don't need tutorials for this, you just need a NEW library.

The faster you play, the more RRs you are going to need. I cannot tell you how much it annoyes me when I'm hearing similar sampled RRs 3 times in a row, or straight after the second RRs. RRs do not work with just programming them in random form, they will still sound mechnical, if not more unrealistic then if you were to have only 3 RRs playing in the right formation where it would go... 1 2 3 1 2 3. In TMT it sounds like it's doing this..... 1 2 1 2 2 3 3 1 1 2 3 2 and so on which is just poor IMO.

To sum up. You need atleast 10 layers and 10 RRs to play hard and fast and for it to still sound realistic, and finally, you have to ask your self this quesion, from what I just said, why do you think TH's libraries sound so good and why do you think people love to work with them??? :idea:


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## wolf (Nov 30, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues ... Live Score: 20 - 3*

When I first read Troel's statement I thought: "Wow, bold!" But hey, destiny favors the bold and I love TH libraries.... so I took a listen and look at all the Taiko libs I own (NVA-Sean's, VSL, SD1+2,TS2, Ra, YT; admittedly, I don't own DOW2 yet) and have to agree with Troels - couldn't find any that is sampled to the depth TH does it - and I love that depth. Dan-Jay beautifully laid out the technicalities of that love. TH irreversibly raised the RR and layers bar for percussion - and their stuff sounds great to boot. yeah, I'm a fan...

So I for one look forward to the TH Taiko days.

And I'm looking forward to this year's TH pre-Christmas craziness. It was tons of fun last year! o=<


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## NYC Composer (Nov 30, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues ... Live Score: 22 - 3*

Dan-Jay-

As you've said you can certainly program drums, perhaps you could share your brilliance by posting something using the TH libraries here-from everything you've said, I'm sure we can learn much from your vast experience in using multiple layers of RR in a musical way, and can be humbled by your ......oh wait. That was someone else.

Never mind-sorry! :wink: 

(really-don't. I'm kidding.)


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## Blackster (Nov 30, 2010)

Folmann @ Tue Nov 30 said:


> Tonehammer will be there 24/7 to provide psychological support after the trauma kicks in - our love has no limits.



Actually that's the reason why I always look forward to new TH libraries


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## Waywyn (Nov 30, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues ... Live Score: 22 - 3*

Why am I so reminded of that statement of Steven Hawkings while reading this thread?


Hawkings: It seems there is no room for God in this universe. It may have totally developed on it's own.

People (who can't read): HOW CAN YOU F*CKIN SAY THERE IS NOOOOOO GOD!!!!1111one??!?!?!?


This is the problem of what I call selective recognition and humanity suffers big time from this. Someone gives a statement and people read what they want to read, not what has been exactly stated!


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## bryla (Nov 30, 2010)

Blake I believe Alicia's keys was sampled in a somewhat similar fashion according to an interview with a Alicia I read somewhere.

Dan-Jay with all due respect, I think you're a bit too obsessed with RR's. You can't judge libraries on that. What you should've done was posting an audio file were TMT failed instead of deleting it from your drive... come on dude


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## Daniel James (Nov 30, 2010)

Am I the only one who forgot this thread was about the Gnomes!

Won't someone PLEASE think of the gnomes!

I really enjoyed last years selection of freebies and I have no doubt this year will be fantastic. 

Thank you for taking the time Troels.

Dan


----------



## Waywyn (Nov 30, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues ... Live Score: 20 - 3*



Dan-Jay @ Tue Nov 30 said:


> To sum up. You need atleast 10 layers and 10 RRs to play hard and fast and for it to still sound realistic, and finally, you have to ask your self this quesion, from what I just said, why do you think TH's libraries sound so good and why do you think people love to work with them??? :idea:



One thing I wanted to mention. It is not only the RRs. Yes you need lots of them to make it sound good/real, especially on fast passages and it surely depends on the style.

What TH makes it special in general is the way it is sampled. In my opinion these guys don't spend their whole time by reading math and physics formulas, testing 500000 mics per day - they simply use their ears. I mean, of course they do their homework and research, but you can clearly hear when a developer created MUSICAL libraries, not technically perfect in all manners. I would give a fuck about techically perfect as long as it rocks ... and this is a reason why I still play my guitar on my own. There is so much dirt, noise and scratches in my tracks that almost everyone of you would do an ugly face when solo listening back the track in a studio ... but that's whats miss in libs: DIRT.

Besides that if you can't make a lib sound good with just 2, 3 or even just 1 velo, just layer the hell out of it and notch eq out staggering freqs.


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## Dan Mott (Nov 30, 2010)

Back again.

To whom it may concern, I do not judge libraries on how many RRs they have which clearly shows in my post. I judge libraries on the sound aswell as the flexibility it has.

RRs are important for repetitions, VERY IMPORTANT. Yes you can make a library sound decent with 3 RRs and a couple of layers, but guys, wouldn't you rather have more than less?? As if you wouldn't! I know most do and that's the reason they purchase from Tonehammer, but the main reason is also because of how it sounds.I library can also sound fantastic, but if it's mechnical sounding like TMT than one isn't going to be happy with it IMO.

TMT, which is why I posted the review isn't done properly. Lets go deeper here. For example, EW Taikos have three to four RRs and 8 or so layers, you can make these sound pretty good, even though the sound of them is not really my taste. Why? because the RRs were recorded and programmed the right way. In TMT like i said, the RRs play random, just like Global world percussion does. An example of this would be liek the one I said above. Think about how annoying this would sound if you were hitting a drum and hearing it like this ... 1 1 3 2 3 1 3 2 2 2 2 3 3 3. This is what TMT is like and this is why It didn't get a good review by me. You cannot record RRs and program them like that because they aren't going to sound natural and also sound like someone is playing them in a performance. YES????

Now. The reason EW can sound much better than TMT with so little RRs is because they do not play at random, they would play like this.... 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4, where also having the option of using a round robin midi note trigger. Therefore a way more natural performance sound. I human cannot hit a drum the same and for it to sound the same after the second hit which is what is in TMT and is why it sounds so mechanical. If you disagree with this, please tell me and I wiò  v   áôw  v   áö¬  v   á÷;  v   áúŽ  v   áúŸ  v   áû”  v   áû´  v   áÿ  v   áÿé  v   âÿ  v   â  v   â-  v   â-ƒ  v   â.é  v   â/  v   âC,  v   âCÑ  v   âP›  v   âQ"  v   âaŒ  v   âa™  v   âcÎ  v   âd]  v   âj»  v   âjÚ  v   â~I  v   â~ÿ  v   âñ  v   â€-  v   â†ë  v   â‡T  v   âŠ›  v   âŠÇ  v   â•!  v   â•N  v   â–«  v   â—i  v   â˜t  v   â™"  v   â™Í  v   âš   v   âœô  v   â  v   âQ  v   âs  v   â Ú  v   â¡U  v   â¨þ  v   â©  v   â¸  v   â¸Í  v   â¾ë  v   â¿c  v   âÀ  v   âÀM  v   âÀþ  v   âÁ  v   âÁ:  v   âÁd  v   âÆñ  v   âÇ  v   âÏ€  v   âÐ  v   âÑg  v   âÑ‘  v   âÚ3  v   âÛA  v   âæK  v   âæj  v   âé9  v   âéX  v   ãm  v   ã  v   ãÑ  v   ãê  v   ãÐ  v   ãí  v   ãs  v   ã‚  v   ã  v   ã:  v   ã“  v   ãÁ  v   ã0f  v   ã0y  v   ã0ˆ  v   ã0  v   ã@]  v   ã@›  v   ãfÐ  v   ãZ  v   ãŸ  v   ã‚Û  v   ã‚ç  v   ãƒS  v   ã„}  v   ã„¯  v   ãÃ  v   ã‘   v   ã–Y  v   ã–§  v   ã™f  v   ã™w  v   ãžÒ  v   ãžè  v   ã¦Í  v   ã¦ü  v   ã¯×  v   ã°D  v   ãº  v   ãº_  v   ä7              ò  v   äñ  v   ä	  v   ä¡  v   äÃ  v   äT  v   äs  v   ä X  v   ä ‰  v   ä+  v   ä8  v   ä3}  v   ä3»  v   äOW  v   äO‡  v   äq}  v   äq³  v   är£  v   äs	  v   ä{ø  v   ä|Z  v   äî  v   ä‘  v   äž5  v   äžo  v   äª  v   äª]  v   ä¬Á  v   ä¬Þ  v   ä­±  v   ä­Ý  v   ä®Ê  v   ä®ý  v   äºÚ  v   ä»P  v   ä¼  v   ä¼”  v   äÍn  v   äÍÚ  v   äïµ  v   äïÛ  v   äò¥  v   äòÕ  v   åH  v   å  v   åË  v   åó  v   åm  v   å  v   å­  v   åR  v   å˜  v   åÞ  v   å.  v   åy  v   åJ  v   å  v   å3î  v   å4a  v   å<r  v   å<˜  v   åLŽ  v   åLÍ  v   åbÌ  v   åc}  v   åm÷  v   ånA  v   åo  v   åo/  v   åqh  v   åq³  v   åtœ  v   åt¤  v   åt¾  v   åtÛ  v   å~=  v   å~û  v   å‡¥  v   å‡Ó  v   å“&  v   å“O  v   åœË  v   å'  v   å¤  v   å¤N  v   å©á  v   åª5  v   å±ñ  v   å²}  v   åµ  v   åµ1  v   å·n  v   å¸j  v   åº¨  v   å»y  v   åÁ7  v   åÁq  v   åÊU  v   åÊž  v   åÎø  v   åÏ•  v   åÑ  v   åÑ=  v   åÕk  v   åÕ   v   æ ±  v   æ Ü  v   æ  v   æ  v   æä  v   æó  v   æ!¬  v   æ"x              ò  v   æ+Y  v   æ:´  v   æ;;  v   æB8  v   æBh  v   æE  v   æE  v   æJ"  v   æJV  v   æPZ  v   æP  v   æ[ƒ  v   æ[’  v   æhì  v   æi  v   æiR  v   æis  v   æi²  v   æiá  v   æf  v   æ±  v   æ—‡  v   æ—Ã  v   æ­u  v   æ­¼  v   æ»%  v   æ»¬  v   æÅ  v   æÅN  v   æË  v   æË-  v   æÏ`  v   æÏ†  v   æÞÛ  v   æßu  v   æåþ  v   æê  v   æë  v   çÆ  v   çþ  v   çÔ  v   ç  v   çM  v   çt  v   ç@  v   çc  v   ç"ì  v   ç#*  v   ç)ƒ  v   ç)•  v   ç*ˆ  v   ç+¥  v   çH­  v   çI)  v   çˆ(  v   çˆc  v   çºN  v   çº±  v   çÖU  v   ç×  v   èVp  v   èV—  v   èX”  v   èZ  v   è…o  v   è†  v   è=  v   èQ  v   è«¾  v   è³+  v   è·Ÿ  v   è·Å  v   è¸]  v   è¸š  v   éŽ  v   é«  v   é&k  v   é&ü  v   éGÝ  v   éH«  v   éj‚  v   ékv  v   éq`  v   éqƒ  v   é™  v   é™™  v   éœk  v   éœÏ  v   éÏ  v   éž7  v   é¨}  v   é¨¨  v   é©  v   é©>  v   é©ü  v   éª  v   é­2  v   é¯  v   é´¿  v   é´ö  v   éÁ  v   éÁ6  v   éÃÕ  v   éÄ+  v   éÌõ  v   éÍ  v   éÑœ  v   éÒ   v   éÕ  v   éÕW  v   é×F  v   é×               ò  v   éã  v   éã»  v   éäY  v


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## juliansader (Nov 30, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Tue 30 Nov said:


> In TMT like i said, the RRs play random, just like Global world percussion does. An example of this would be liek the one I said above. Think about how annoying this would sound if you were hitting a drum and hearing it like this ... 1 1 3 2 3 1 3 2 2 2 2 3 3 3. This is what TMT is like and this is why It didn't get a good review by me. You cannot record RRs and program them like that because they aren't going to sound natural and also sound like someone is playing them in a performance. YES????



If you dislike Kontakt's built-in Humanizer script, there are many others that you can try, such as 'Ultra TKT' or 'Machine Gun Killer'.


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## Dan Mott (Nov 30, 2010)

Tone hammer doesn't have a few RRs nor few layers. Instead they have up to 15 layers and RRs together, not to mention the layers go from loud to soft in a very natural way, so it wins in that department.

I played with TMT again and no matter what do, adjust velocity layers and such, it still sounds mechanical and if I have to use something else to stop this then why would I bother, I'll search for something I actually like. Even the sounds in TMT by them self dont sound human.

I just need a screencast program to show you the differences,

Anyway.

Peace.


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## Mike Connelly (Nov 30, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues ... Live Score: 20 - 3*

For RR there's a simple test for me - if it's easy to hear how many RRs there are in a patch, there aren't enough. I have heard 2x RRs where I had to wonder why they even bothered to do RR at all.

One of the biggest issues can be when different samples are individual enough that the listener can recognize individual ones. On the one hand, it's great to have some variation between individual samples, after all if the RRs all sound practically identical then what's the point. But while it's great to have some variations that make things feel more human, the more unique and recognizable a particular sample is, the more other RRs you need before you come back to it. The worst is when you can pick out the repetition pattern and it starts to sound like a "flink flonk flunk flink flonk flunk..." Some sounds definitely are trickier in this respect, things with an ensemble that are flammier or more exotic playing techniques where there's more variation between repetitions.

It also makes a big difference what sort of part is idiomatic for the instrument. Snare or xylophone often pound away 16ths on the same note while that's rarely if ever going to happen on tubular bells, so in that case 3x RR may be plenty.

As for randomization versus cycling in a particular order, I like the idea of random but with limitations programmed in to avoid repeats within a certain number of samples. Or in the case of a cycle, doing one that's longer and more complicated. In the case of ensemble patches where multiple samples are layered, you can get more variety if the different layers are cycled differently to make different combinations (along with the possibility of some random variation of parameters between samples).




juliansader @ Tue Nov 30 said:


> The use of fewer velocity layers often creates “gaps” between RR groups that are particularly noticeable when doing crescendos or decrescendos – many times you can hear an obvious volume gap/bump when your MIDI gets to the next velocity group of RR samples.



This is an issue in a number of libraries, but with 10 velocity layers shouldn't it be possible for many instruments to get decent transitions between velocity layers with careful recording, programming, level matching, and velocity scaling (and potentially crossfading/morphing in cases where it works)?

It seems to me that there isn't some general "optimal" number of velocity layers. What is important is that there are enough layers that as you go between them the transitions are gradual - if there is a major jump in sound quality between layers, you probably need an additional layer between those two. I would think that in some situations it would be best to space the dynamics evenly and in others a particular instrument may be better served if specific parts of the dynamic range get more velocity levels (for the latter, brass comes to mind where the tone changes much more radically at the loudest end of the spectrum - there are libraries where the loudest brass samples have a huge difference in tone from the next ones down).

I think crescendos like that are a great test for a sample library - with any library that's going for deep sampling, a long slow crescendo should be even, without any gaps or bumps. It's a tough job, I can't imagine how the players or the developers manage to get that many dynamic levels performed and recorded.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 30, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Tue Nov 30 said:


> Back again.
> 
> To whom it may concern, I do not judge libraries on how many RRs they have which clearly shows in my post. I judge libraries on the sound aswell as the flexibility it has.
> 
> ...



Dan Jay, I have no problem with you, though I do wish you'd relax a tad.

Btw-for future reference, they ways to tell if I'm joking are:

1. If I say "I'm joking" or "I'm kidding" within the text.
2. My jocular use of emoticons.

Cheers.


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## JustinW (Dec 1, 2010)

*Re: The Embarrassment Continues ... Live Score: 20 - 3*



Dan-Jay @ Tue Nov 30 said:


> I took alot of time to use the library. I had alot of goes at it and I didn't like it. I'm aloud not to like it and I'm aloud an entitled opinion. I would not suggest to anyone to buy this library. As I said, people would have a better time with DOW2 Taikos, or Sean's library. This library is outdated, even though it's somewhat new, the programming is outdated.



Of course you're allowed to dislike anything. But I saw, what seems like an ill informed 'review,' and had to point that out. A few hours is not a lot of time either (in this context).



Dan-Jay @ Tue Nov 30 said:


> Yes, RRs is the way of humanizing. People can say what they want, but when it comes to drums this is damn well essential, and I mean that with a passion. Aswell as guitar libraries and piano libraries, pretty much anyhting that plays repetions needs alot of RRs to sound like one is playing a performance. I actually cannot believe you questioned this part of humanizing.



The reason I mentioned; with my past experience with Nine Volt libraries, I noticed a lack of RRs with the focus being on velocity layers (as Julian pointed out). The way you approach programming a library like that is different than you would a library that uses RRs for humanizing. You wouldn't squeeze an orange to try to make lemonade would you?



Dan-Jay @ Tue Nov 30 said:


> You must be crazy to question it and clearly haven't had experience with many different drums libraries to make it perfectly clear to your own self.



I am known in my area as the crazy inexperienced drum library knower, so you nailed that one on the head. What else do you know about me?



Dan-Jay @ Tue Nov 30 said:


> Many layers are important aswell. You shouldn't have to alternate between every single layer to make the drum library sound good, which is where the RRs play a massive part. When I human plays a drum, they choose how hard they want to play in certain sections. So if I got TMT to play loud and fast, it would sound like a robot and also unnatural because I have to alternative between the layers, from lowest to highest which clearly takes away the assumption from the listener that the percussionist is playing loudly. Yes, humans don't play every single not at the same level, that's where you alternate between layers, but because TH has so many layers, you can still alternate realisticly and be able to keep the listener thinking and hearing that one is playing the instrument at loud levels.



You don't need to alternate between layers. Randomize the velocity and it does it for you. The reason the above mentioned mechanic is used is because some people prefer to avoid the possibility of repeats with RRs and program the hits themselves. 

I _know_ it sounds like hard work.



Dan-Jay @ Tue Nov 30 said:


> Drums is all about performance, and because tonehammer's were recorded in a performance with many alternate RRs, makes it very powerful and less nightmares such as TMT. The only way to make TMT sound OK! is to alternate between the loud and soft layers like in the demo and that's about it. 3 RRs playing random is not going to cut anyones standards and you don't need tutorials for this, you just need a NEW library.
> ........
> To sum up. You need atleast 10 layers and 10 RRs to play hard and fast and for it to still sound realistic, and finally, you have to ask your self this quesion, from what I just said, why do you think TH's libraries sound so good and why do you think people love to work with them??? :idea:



Like Julian said, they use a different mechanic. It is not about the RRs that make for a convincing performance, it is the variation of hits. TH and other devs use one technique and TMT and some others use another.

You gave a review (in a thread about a different dev and a different product(s)) about TMT but didn't bother to really understand how to use it.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 1, 2010)

*You don't need to alternate between layers. Randomize the velocity and it does it for you. The reason the above mentioned mechanic is used is because some people prefer to avoid the possibility of repeats with RRs and program the hits themselves. 

I know it sounds like hard work. *


Read what I said about this before you post stuff like, you clearly didn't read. My example of this, which I'm going to do later today is going to prove my point of this which you will realise.

It's not hard work, it's easy, but hard to make it sound good because this isn't a good way to go about layers. When I talk about velocity, I'm talking about layers, which when you change the velocity, it changes the layer.

I bothered to understand it, and I know that TH's is much more effective and I will show you how, and you will see.

You didn't bother to read everything I said.


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## JustinW (Dec 1, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Wed Dec 01 said:


> Read what I said about this before you post stuff like, you clearly didn't read. My example of this, which I'm going to do later today is going to prove my point of this which you will realise.
> 
> It's not hard work, it's easy, but hard to make it sound good because this isn't a good way to go about layers.
> 
> Pfft.



Read it.

I could go into how one would go about randomizing hits (with TMT), but I won't.

My statement is true. NO matter if you went back after you were told the mechanic TMT uses for randomizing, which you seemed ignorant about in your 'review.' (all the RR talk, when it is now clear they do not use RRs for humanizing or randomizing hits).

The fact remains you gave a shitty review about a product without knowing about it and spent a 'few' hours trying to master it. Just because you went back afterwards, after learning and keep saying it sucks (and how much you absolutely adore TH), does not take away from the fact your gave an ill informed review in the first place, even if your verdict remains the same.

At this point I think you just want to dislike since you are holding so much stock in disliking it.

Cheers m8. o-[][]-o


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## Dan Mott (Dec 1, 2010)

JustinW @ Wed Dec 01 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Wed Dec 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Read what I said about this before you post stuff like, you clearly didn't read. My example of this, which I'm going to do later today is going to prove my point of this which you will realise.
> ...



Yep. Ofcourse, whatever you say, pal.


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## dedersen (Dec 1, 2010)

And just think, it all started with gnomes. Always causing havoc, those little critters.

Just to add a bit of Tonehammer love to the thread: I have a HandSonic hooked up via MIDI and the TH libs are the only ones I have tried where I can just load up a patch and play, and it really feels shockingly close to playing the real drum. I can actually PLAY the percussion rather than program it, which is just so much more inspiring.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 1, 2010)

dedersen @ Wed Dec 01 said:


> And just think, it all started with gnomes. Always causing havoc, those little critters.
> 
> Just to add a bit of Tonehammer love to the thread: I have a HandSonic hooked up via MIDI and the TH libs are the only ones I have tried where I can just load up a patch and play, and it really feels shockingly close to playing the real drum. I can actually PLAY the percussion rather than program it, which is just so much more inspiring.



+1 and I.... I... I love you.


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## dedersen (Dec 1, 2010)

"Don't love me, love The Tonehammer!"

How's that for a slogan, Troels?


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## Tanuj Tiku (Dec 1, 2010)

The new video on the TH site is just HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great stuff Troels!

Love it! 

I am definitely picking up some stuff in the coming days.



Best,

Tanuj.


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## Mike Connelly (Dec 1, 2010)

Justin, do you have TMT?


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## Dan Mott (Dec 1, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Thu Dec 02 said:


> Justin, do you have TMT?



.... and also, Justin, do you have a Tonehammer library?


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## InSessionAudio (Dec 1, 2010)

Hello All,

Please read this in a very cheery tone with no animosity - I don't want to be interpreted as trying to put anyone in their place - far from it.

There are definitely pros and cons to doing round robin (RR) - many of which have been explained here in good detail.

A little back story on Ten Man Taiko (TMT):
We had a unique opportunity to put together a large group of players for a shorter-than-we-would-have-liked sampling session. All the sampling was done on one day. There is a bit more info in the Read Me file available on the TMT web page of our site about mics used.

The nature of having ten players hitting in unison is pretty much impossible - so our tight hits in Ten Man Taiko are what I would call "naturally tight" - meaning, if you put a different ten players in a group and asked them to play in unison, you'd get similar results. 

We also had a variety of taiko - some of which sounded different than others. I believe this adds positively to the character of the sound – after all, what's the point of getting a sample set of ten players that sound like three or four? 

As for Ten Man Taiko - is it possible to get it to "machine gun", even with the humanizing script? Yes. I realize this is a big minus for some users. However, as we were developing this product we discussed the pros/cons of doing round robin and found that NOT doing round robin worked for this - partly because every hit is rather un-uniform anyway. There are also some pros on the programming and user CPU side of things to not doing RR - which aren't overwhelming reasons, but add to the decision making process.

I don't want to presume that a musician/composer would use TMT in a "traditional" or "slightly-busier-than-traditional" way, but if they did, then I believe the results would be useable and rewarding.

We felt that TMT was an opportunity to add something new to the marketplace and that could be useful to many people. We also felt that it was priced in a way ($69.99) that reflected that it is not the be-all-end-all of taiko collections - that it was a unique tool to be used in choice instances - and that the price accounted for its uniqueness and flexibility (or lack of, as some might view it). 

We try to be conscientious about how we prepare, price and market our products. Almost every product that has been released in the past couple of years has an accompanying video walk-through as well as one or more MP3 demos. If anyone ever feels that we've misrepresented our products and that a purchase is completely unusable, please contact me and I will try and rectify the situation the best that I can.

OK... again (in a cheery tone): off to work on other releases. I will stop watching this thread but if anyone wants to follow up with me or has any questions about any of the above please feel free to email me at [email protected]. I'll be happy to reply.

Thanks!


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## KMuzzey (Dec 1, 2010)

I looooove the 10-man Stickbreakers taikos: those are some powerful drums! And I also love Drums of War 2. And if Tonehammer releases some taikos, I'll be the first in line to buy it on day 1. One can never have too many favorite-pairs-of-shoes.

Kerry


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## muzicphiles (Dec 2, 2010)

Hi troels.. just saw the gnome teaser.. wanted to know if these are freshly recorded gnome choir samples or are these the same one's which had been released with the micro hammer buy it all bundle?


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