# Asian guy gets offended



## moon (Nov 21, 2021)

Starting a thread here because I felt terrible about making a hubbub in a commercial thread. Sorry for the clickbait title. Please delete or move this if it's not appropriate.

Backstory: I was reading a thread for a VI made in an Asian country and came across some people posting what I thought were some relatively tasteless comments that perpetuated some stereotypes about the country. For what it's worth, I don't think these posters were being malicious or intentionally offensive, but the comments came off that way to me. Of course, I expressed my dislike of comments such as those in the thread. _<MOD NOTE - That post is here.>_ I received numerous responses and had some civil debate with others, but the core of my argument was this: as someone of Asian heritage (which I assume the others were not), people saying comments such as those, even if not intended to be offensive, come across as such because they buy into and perpetuate stereotypes.

In the end, I had someone who I assume is not of Asian heritage tell me why they are an expert in a specific Asian country's culture, and that if I am offended it's my own problem to deal with. So here's my question for you all: am I being too sensitive, or am I justified in thinking that I shouldn't have to stand to hear and see comments like these?


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## Denix (Nov 21, 2021)

If you feel offended, then the others should take that seriously. To say that this is your problem because someone is familiar with the culture of the country is pretty weak. 
There is some old research, that the stereotypes people had pre visiting a country were even more solidified post being there. It`s easier for brains to confirm beliefs than to reorganise.


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## GNP (Nov 21, 2021)

It's not really about how you should feel about the comments, but rather you should just express yourself the way you want.

*And if both outsiders and insiders contributing to the stereotyping insist that you should only express yourself in a certain way that fits only their worldviews, **you can just laugh at them.*


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## Crowe (Nov 21, 2021)

I honestly have no idea. I've grown up with hearing people talk trash about each and every country on my continent, my own included. Stereotypes galore. If misinformation and stereotypes can spread about countries right next to you, it's no real surprise some people don't know jack about a part of the world that's nowhere near them.

I personally don't care about stereotypes. If I catch them, I laugh at the people who perpetuate them and tell them they're wrong. Getting angry is useless, it will never stop. You can educate individual people, but you can never educate humanity. Because collectively, we are idiots.

I don't think you're too sensitive, but like everybody who feels the need to 'defend their culture', you may need to take a deep breath and think about what battles to fight.

There's an interesting thought too. As an example, I really like certain Kpop groups. I therefore watch a bunch of _korean _youtubers and newsoutlets and shows. Now imagine my surprise when I talk to a Korean acquaintance and regurgitate some really specific things about a certain cultural idea and she gets angry because it isn't like that at all. To her. That was kinda odd. I couldn't really defend myself because I'm 'not asian' but it's information I got from what I consider to be the source. Who is right? I'll never know. You can never win when it comes to 'culture', because people feel like they own it. That's a dangerous idea, I feel.

Anyway. I guess there's levels. There's dumb shit, there's annoying shit, and there's damaging shit. My take? Correct people where they are misinformed, but take care you don't become as obnoxious as the asshat regurgitating wrong information. And remember that stuff isn't black and white. What do people think they know, and why do they think they know it?

Bottom Line: I think you can correct anyone, but try not to get too angry while you do it. It's easier to feed someone new information than it is to outright tell them they're wrong and getting them to change their views that way.

EDIT: Having said everything else, I do think that folk who don't actually care about certain topics and/or have never actively tried to learn about them should kinda shut the f*ck up in general. I would never presume to know anything about Thailand, for example.



Denix said:


> If you feel offended, then the others should take that seriously.


Automatically? No. Even people who get offended can be wrong. In fact, it doesn't matter if you're _offended_. It's exceedingly easy to let everything offend you.


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## emilio_n (Nov 21, 2021)

I think we live in times where societies tend to mark too much the stereotypes of other places. I am living in Hong Kong, where people get assumptions about western countries not always correct. On the other hand, even living here a few years and living a very local life with my wife, Hongkonense, I discover myself looking at the people here with a big glass of cliches and stereotypes in some situations.

It is mostly just minor cultural differences, so it is better not to take them so seriously.


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## zedmaster (Nov 21, 2021)

After having lived several Asian countries during the last years, and experiencing glimpses of life there, I cringe every time when my friends (let alone strangers) talk about "Asian" culture. I see a lot of generalization and ignorance towards the incredibly rich history *and* present of China, South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia etc. etc. 

I think us westerners can't complain being educated in what's going on in that part of the world and should get out of our micro-horizon every now and then


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## Crowe (Nov 21, 2021)

zedmaster said:


> After having lived several Asian countries during the last years, and experiencing glimpses of life there, I cringe every time when my friends (let alone strangers) talk about "Asian" culture. I see a lot of generalization and ignorance towards the incredibly rich history *and* present of China, South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia etc. etc.
> 
> I think us westerners can't complain being educated in what's going on in that part of the world and should get out of our micro-horizon every now and then


The problem here is that, as I've indicated, even if you actively go out and search for information there is no insurance that the information you acquire is correct. Even within countries folks view things differently from each other.

So going around saying 'westerners can't complain and should get out of their micro horizons' is interesting, but unhelpful. I try, very hard I might add,_ and it doesn't help much._


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## GNP (Nov 21, 2021)

zedmaster said:


> After having lived several Asian countries during the last years, and experiencing glimpses of life there, I cringe every time when my friends (let alone strangers) talk about "Asian" culture. I see a lot of generalization and ignorance towards the incredibly rich history *and* present of China, South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia etc. etc.
> 
> I think us westerners can't complain being educated in what's going on in that part of the world and should get out of our micro-horizon every now and then


No worries you guys, we have alot of ignorant local bullshitters on the inside as well.


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## Hansu Heya (Nov 21, 2021)

Generalizations are part of the humor all over the world. French people are being sexualized, Italians are mostly about food, Germans about lack of humor and cars, Americans are all cowboys, ... One should not take any of that serious! That would be a clear sign of lack of intelligence.

You can complain when people actually use these stereo types all day! But you would have to complain about e.g. most comedy being broadcast, first! You cannot demand from actual people in day to day speech (and some joke being made) to be more restrictive with their wording then common media is. That is just absurd ...


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## d.healey (Nov 21, 2021)

Asia is the largest and most culturally diverse continent on the planet, there is no such thing as Asian culture, only Asian cultures. 

To say someone is of Asian heritage tells you almost nothing about them and nobody should make assumptions about their culture or way of life based on that one fact. It's like saying I'm English therefore I live in Big Ben, have tea with the Queen, and sound like Hugh Grant


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## CeDur (Nov 21, 2021)

I'm very sensitive and I'm offended by the fact someone's being offended by the fact that someone else wrote something. Stop being offended, it makes me anxious!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 21, 2021)

I'm not aware of the thread. But I think that if everybody expects to be able to express themselves in which ever way they feel, why should that not apply to you as well?

In fact, the one person who tells you that you're "too sensitive" is the person who's not just making a harmless insensitive joke or stereotypical remark, but the guy who - consciously or not - indeed marginalizes you due to your cultural background.

That's the thing I don't like about the stereotype jokes etc. This is all stuff people are _perfectly _aware of but choose to be ignorant of anyway. When this stuff comes up, the lines are blurred between harmless joking and racism. Meaning that while certainly some people will make these remarks without maliciousness or ill intent, you bet there's a few racists among the crowd as well.


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## handz (Nov 21, 2021)

Well, we would need to see some examples of what offended you. But judging just from the fact you actually made a thread about it on the music forum leads me to the conclusion that you are probably getting too easily offended. People generally getting offended too much about everything lately. Good old days when this wasn't on a daily menu. 

I wonder what Asian stereotypes are there that you can get offended by in such a debate? "Asians play great on any instrument" "Asians are great in math" Gosh, I would love to be in this stereotype group. The most heard stereotype about my nationality is that we drink a lot of beer (and well, it is true, as well, many stereotypes are based on common facts).


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## Jeremy Morgan (Nov 21, 2021)

If someone is offended by something and they know it was not intended by the offender and can convey that lack of intention in the critique on the words...the critique itself will be less offensive to that person and the person will be educated.

If someone heard the same thing by someone else and they knew it was not intended at all and in a different context, they may also not see anything to be critical about.

If someone intended to be offensive.... That is a problem period.

If we can all walk into a comedy club and understand the true intention of the comedian is humor even if it's dark ... we may never feel to be offended at all but as much as I love dark comedy to death... i'm not going to go to the 'Just for Laughs' KKK comedy festival because I know what those jokes will really mean.

If we felt ok to clarify people's intentions the world would be a better place. Words and intentions are packaged in my world and I'm rarely offended by something until I know the state of both.


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## applegrovebard (Nov 21, 2021)

To me, stereotypes aren't bad per se. Many stereotypes in specific contexts I wouldn't approve of, sure. What we call stereotypes are part of how humans always have and always will try to get by in the world by noticing what kinds of people, things, actions seem to occur together more often than chance would suggest. There are positive as well as negative stereotypes and any stereotype may contain no, a little or considerable truth. Stand-up comedians of both sexes often provoke considerable laughter of recognition from both sexes by pointing out 'stereotypes' about the behaviour of each sex.


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## dcoscina (Nov 21, 2021)

I think it’s fine to call people out on a thread. I didn’t read the thread so I cannot attest to the tenor with which you expressed your concerns but I’m sure they were appropriate.


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## PeterN (Nov 21, 2021)

zedmaster said:


> After having lived several Asian countries during the last years, and experiencing glimpses of life there, I cringe every time when my friends (let alone strangers) talk about "Asian" culture. I see a lot of generalization and ignorance towards the incredibly rich history *and* present of China, South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia etc. etc.
> 
> I think us westerners can't complain being educated in what's going on in that part of the world and should get out of our micro-horizon every now and then


Really. Well, so have I, and my Asian history knowledge is such, that I can even turn the history books around. I might.

The history knowledge of average Asians - on their own history - is very poor, but that goes pretty much for whole world. In modern times.

Nothing wrong using word "Asian", its a generalised concept that can be adapted reasonably well. In day to day communication. You can nitpick on it, but then so be it. Anyway, didnt come to collect virtue points.


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## Dirtgrain (Nov 21, 2021)

handz said:


> Well, we would need to see some examples of what offended you.


I agree. OP is Vaguebooking.


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## chillbot (Nov 21, 2021)

Since it's a poll I voted "you are justified" in that some of the comments were offensive and you are in the right to feel offended.

On the other hand, I wish people would be better... maybe this thread will bring some awareness (one can hope)... but it's hard to get worked up over some comments buried on page 60 of a 65+ page thread on a very niche forum on the INTERNET. Not to justify it but it happens a lot and much worse.

I also wonder how you seem to know everyone's background, i.e. that some of the people in the thread are not of asian-decent? Or that the people in the other thread were "a bunch of brits". This is a very anonymous forum, more than most. I have no clue of the majority of people's race/gender/age so never assume. I don't know if it really makes a difference anyway, is it only ok to talk joke about sushi if you are Asian? (I don't know the answer to that.) For example I am old and have boomer-tendencies so I always think it's funny if I call my friends boomers but if younger people call us boomers that is offensive. So maybe it does or maybe that's a different situation. I always say bad analogies are like refrigerators full of snow-cones.


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## Loïc D (Nov 21, 2021)

Disclaimer : as a French, 165cm tall, left-handed and strongly shortsighted person, I allow the hereby ViC community to make jokes about :
- Frogs
- French revolution & history (incl. Napoleon & Joan of Arc)
- Wine & alcool
- Religion
- Politics
- Garlic and bad breath in general
- Boring movies
- Strong accent
- Personal hygiene
- Sex
- Midgets, dwarves, imps
- Nerds
- Hobbyists and musicians of lower skills
- You name it
…and hereby states that I won’t feel offended and I’ll probably get a good laugh and pour myself another glass.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 21, 2021)

Loïc D said:


> Disclaimer : as a French, 165cm tall, left-handed and strongly shortsighted person, I allow the hereby ViC community to make jokes about :
> - Frogs
> - French revolution & history (incl. Napoleon & Joan of Arc)
> - Wine & alcool
> ...


See, this is a way of still getting some favorable reaction out of people even though you suffer from feeling inadequate. If I make a funny sound when you kick me, will you like me more? Haha!


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## jon wayne (Nov 21, 2021)

This is a great forum for us composers that work at home and rarely see other human beings. I would hate to see it go away because someone is offended. Put your big girl/boy pants on and concentrate on making great music. This career is hard enough as it is.


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## moon (Nov 21, 2021)

Thanks all for your comments. I do see that the link to the original post and thread has been added to the OP (thanks mods!), so you can click it there or here. Please feel free to also scroll through the thread to see responses from myself and others.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 21, 2021)

Heh, OK, I skimmed through that thread now. Honestly, it is quite an offensive thread, but mainly through the merciless oafishness that's on display there. My adult self feels assaulted by the dopey attempts at humor and I think I'm entitled to restitution payments. FFS you folks. No wonder people think you're weird.

But yeah @moon. I think you had every right to feel annoyed. It's just so asinine and cringey. If someone thinks that's being too sensitive, they're bovine beyond redemption.


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## Polkasound (Nov 21, 2021)

moon said:


> am I being too sensitive, or am I justified in thinking that I shouldn't have to stand to hear and see comments like these?


When the subject of polka music comes up, most people think of Lawrence Welk, The Schmenge Brothers, Bobby Vinton, World News Polka, Roll Out the Barrel, the Chicken Dance, and fat people in lederhosen. It's a very, very narrow, stereotypical image of the polka genre.

I and other professionals in the genre have been battling this stereotype all our lives. I've literally turned down publicity opportunities, including a Miramax distributed movie, because they all wanted to use me to promote that stereotype. But anytime the discussion of polka music comes up and someone responds with "Schmenge Brothers!" or "Roll out the Barrel!" I'm not offended, because I know no one is trying to be offensive. It's simply a fact that most people in the general public have shared the same limited exposure to polka music over the years, and they're sharing what they know, all in harmless fun.

Likewise, most of us in the general public have had limited exposure to other cultures. Talk about Japan, and our minds might conjure up images of anime, geisha girls, Samurai warriors, Ramen Noodles, Godzilla, etc. Mention of these things is very likely not intended to offend, just like no one is trying to offend polka music when they mention Steve Urkel playing the accordion.

There is a composer on this forum who, in a post several months back, publicly decreed something to the effect of, "People, stop saying this. And stop doing that! It's offensive," where this and that were words and behaviors that I believe were intended as harmless compliments and gestures. In my opinion, the post was the equivalent of saying, "Stop opening the door for me! I can open it myself!" It put me on eggshells and made me want to avoid conversing with that person for fear of offending them entirely by accident.

So the question becomes whether feeling offended is going to have a positive effect or a negative one. Is being outspokenly offended going to contribute to a lasting positive change, or is it just going make people want to avoid you? I think that's a decision only you can make for yourself, which I why I chose not to vote on your poll.


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## Crowe (Nov 21, 2021)

Apologies, I've read through the topic in question and don't understand. It seems the problem is that people associate Japan with a bunch of things Japan has been actively exporting and perpetuating and it kinda looks like you're angry that that's all that most people west know about it.

That's like me getting mad about foreigners equating the Dutch with Weed, mills, bicycles and cheese.

_Which happens all the time. _(the equating, not the getting mad. I personally think it's hilarious.)

So what do you want? For people to not mention anything about Japan? To ignore all the Ramen and Sushi places that litter every major city in every western country? To ignore the fact that Japan is producing and exporting hundreds of new Anime a year? What are people supposed to associate your culture with that we would know about and doesn't upset you? I'm actually very curious, as a big fan of Japanese media whose favorite band has been Yousei Teikoku for the last 10 years.

Also LiSA is bae. I hope that's ok.

EDIT: I kinda lied. My favorite band is actually Hello Sleepwalkers now but they went on hiatus recently and I'm still salty about that.

I'm still really curious about what it is you actually want from these westerners in the other topic. What would you be happy with being mentioned? Or is it just that you don't like folks joking about stereotypes? I suppose that would be fair enough, though I personally don't see the problem there. But then again I am a Dutch pothead who loves cheese and has a Bicycle engineer for a partner.


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## gedlig (Nov 21, 2021)

moon said:


> tell me why they are an expert in a specific Asian country's culture, and that if I am offended it's my own problem to deal with


I'm assuming you're referring to my post, so I'm gonna maybe try to clarify some things and explain how my mind works regarding these things.

I didn't write I'm an expert, just that I know a fair bit about the region, which means jack shit in the grand scheme of things. From my experience, nobody can ever be an actual expert of a whole culture (not even your own country's), at best you could be an expert of a specific part of a culture. I stated having more broader knowledge as a means to say that I'm not just a general weeb, who takes everything in the animus for real, or that I only go off of general stereotypes. Hope that makes sense? Because in these stupid times it's as if people require some credentials to justify you having an opinion. It was like some stupid preemptive defence. Sorry if that came off as cocky or something, wasn't intended.

Regarding being offended, yes I think it's just the problem of the one who gets offended. Though even then this topic is way more nuanced than just "stop being offended". E. g. I'm actually pretty offended by western europeans and north americans who constantly meme the Soviet Union and think they weren't threatening or harmful, or that communism is the way forward, because my and neighbouring countries suffered immensely from those soviet r***ds. But it's not the jokes themselves that I have a problem with, but that they're thrown around lightheartedly with no knowledge what people are joking about. As stated in my post on the other thread, I don't believe that anything should be off limits in jokes, and I do like and make jokes referencing the soviets and other dictatorial regimes, but that is in the context of dark humour and knowledge what you're joking about. So even if I am offended (especially by people automatically assuming we're russians or speak russian), I'm not gonna bar anyone from joking about some topic, that just leads to censorship, thought policing, more problems that I don't think are healthy for humanity.

With cultures and stereotypes it can be pretty slippery, because there are many stereotypes, which are based on nothing and do not reflect reality in the slightest, but there are also stereotypes that have real life grounding and to which people usually react with "yeah, we do be like that" or similar. So it also comes down to education. Personally, I find using baseless stereotypes to be a bit distasteful, though sometimes (rarely, but there are some) those baseless stereotypes are positive, so naturally many wouldn't complain about those. In my mind, I don't think using national foods or a more globally spread cultural aspect (animation in this case) for a joke is somehow insulting or disrespectful, because we do that with our own stuff, so this might be a general mindset difference.

In essence, I understand that you might be offended, and if you are offended, I accept that fact, but I'm not sorry for the culturally inspired joke naming of the library or my views about being offended by jokes, it's just how I am. This might make you dislike me even more, but that's perfectly fine. I hope this didn't come off like my trying to justify my posts, but more an explanation why I posted that.

Edit: To add to what Crowe wrote, a lot what people associate with Japan is what they are pushing globally as a type of soft power, so I don't think it should be very surprising that's what people associate Japan with.

Edit edit: used the wrong term.


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## MartinH. (Nov 21, 2021)

How about we meet in the middle and agree that you can say anything... as long as it's funny enough. I haven't looked at all the posts in question, but most of what I saw didn't make the cut in my personal opinion. I believe as a community we can do better when it comes to being offensive yet funny.


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## Double Helix (Nov 21, 2021)

Crowe said:


> [. . .] But then again I am a Dutch pothead who loves cheese and has a Bicycle engineer for a partner.


"Game, Set, and Match"


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## Crowe (Nov 21, 2021)

Double Helix said:


> "Game, Set, and Match"


It's not a competition.

But when I realized that setup I did think that joke would be a winner. Especially since it's all true.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 21, 2021)

Crowe said:


> Apologies, I've read through the topic in question and don't understand. It seems the problem is that people associate Japan with a bunch of things Japan has been actively exporting and perpetuating and it kinda looks like you're angry that that's all that most people west know about it.
> 
> That's like me getting mad about foreigners equating the Dutch with Weed, mills, bicycles and cheese.
> 
> ...


Not to be overly confrontative, but your argumentation sounds a bit disingenuous, I must say. You act as if the banality of capitalistic export commodities _is_ Japan, and as if japanese people as individuals chose that to be their collective identity and are now acting pissy if they get reduced to that. You surely know that's totally missing the mark. You surely also know that there is a real Japan and everyday life out there that's about entirely different things, and way more than the typical nonsense that westerners imagine. In fact, you associating Japan mainly with Sushi and Anime actually is kinda telling.

Maybe you're just more the unassuming or easygoing type, but me personally being from Austria, if someone did the whole huhuh, yodeling, Schnitzel, Arnold, huhuh, Ei'll be bäck, skiing, monarchy, leather shorts, Sachertorte, I'd be rolling my eyes and think that person is a simpleton. It's as if these people needed a minute to remember that you're actually not a cartoon character. I don't have anything to do with any of that stuff. Must we go through this bullshit every time before I can start listening? It's not something that plagues me at night, but it's annoying and lame.

What I'm trying to point out it is that just because you personally don't mind triteness, it doesn't mean that it isn't something that other people might react negatively to. It's nothing out of the ordinary. But seeing how you're basically willing to go to an additional length to actually challenge the person to justify their reaction - that's kinda trying a bit hard, isn't? And one must wonder why that seemed necessary. You should ask yourself there.

I think it's pretty obvious what the dude expects. Do we really have to compulsively ride the cliché whenever "the Other" is mentioned? that about sums it up I think.


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## Crowe (Nov 21, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Not to be overly confrontative, but your argumentation sounds a bit disingenuous, I must say. You act as if the banality of capitalistic export commodities _is_ Japan, and as if japanese people as individuals chose that to be their collective identity and are now acting pissy if they get reduced to that. You surely know that's totally missing the mark. You surely also know that there is a real Japan and everyday life out there that's about entirely different things, and way more than the typical nonsense that westerners imagine. In fact, you associating Japan mainly with Sushi and Anime actually is kinda telling.
> 
> Maybe you're just more the unassuming or easygoing type, but me personally being from Austria, if someone did the whole huhuh, yodeling, Schnitzel, Arnold, huhuh, Ei'll be bäck, skiing, monarchy, leather shorts, Sachertorte, I'd be rolling my eyes and think that person is a simpleton. It's as if these people needed a minute to remember that you're actually not a cartoon character. I don't have anything to do with any of that stuff. Must we go through this bullshit every time before I can start listening? It's not something that plagues me at night, but it's annoying and lame.
> 
> ...



Ok. If you're going to read things into my reply that I didn't say or intend, that's fine. You can say I was 'disingenuous' all you want, but i'll reconfirm here that I was 100% serious and everything I said was straight from the heart. I don't get you. I don't get Moon. I don't understand why you would get this up in arms about this. I never have. I don't think I ever will.

Do we have to go through this bullshit every time? Well, probably. If someone doesn't know anything else about a culture, what is it you want? I'm Dutch and I don't know *anything* about Austria other than that I once had Sauerkraut in Vienna. Oh and there was a nice palace. And my mother once said something about a Sissy but I have no idea what that means.

Ok, that was disingenuous. I fully understand that all those things you mentioned shouldn't be the first thing you say to someone. That's enough to roll your eyes over, I feel.



> In fact, you associating Japan mainly with Sushi and Anime actually is kinda telling.


The only thing that's telling here is that you've read into my post what you wanted. Everything that I know about Japan *besides that* are things I've had to research. I've had to actually buy books on Japanese architecture, about the landscape, about other foods. None of that information is readily regurgitated through media. You have to go look for it.



> You act as if the banality of capitalistic export commodities _is_ Japan, and as if japanese people as individuals chose that to be their collective identity and are now acting pissy if they get reduced to that. You surely know that's totally missing the mark.


Again, I said no such thing. I said that these three things are *main exports*. It is therefore not at all weird that they are one of the first things that are associated. I could've mentioned Mirin. Sake. Yuzu. All the other shit I cook with. But that would've been just as bad, wouldn't it?

I kinda think that you're the one being disingenuous here.

--Striked out because pointless rant-- But yeah, you're right about one thing. I think everyone should lighten up. The planet is doomed and I'm not going to have children because I don't want them growing up in this fucking mess. Apparently Japan's suicide rates are through the roof and Trump was president of America for 4 years. There's more important shit going around than people joking about dumb cultural stereotypes.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 21, 2021)

Crowe said:


> The only thing that's telling here is that you've read into my post what you wanted.


That's the one thing people typically resort to if you pay more attention to what they've been saying than they do themselves. Once you close in on the notions and give them some thought, inevitably it's _"you're reading things into what I said "_. Am I? I'm interpreting what you might be saying, even if you didn't mean to say it (which doesn't mean you're not thinking it). Seems like you don't trust your own ability to withstand this scrutiny?

People wanna play the simple game. And they're rarely conscious about their thoughts and ideas. They don't like it when you gently nudge them in the right direction.



> I don't get you. I don't get Moon. I don't understand why you would get this up in arms about this. I never have. I don't think I ever will.


That's expected. Doesn't matter.

But just because it's the next logical part of this whole fun exercise, let me point out that you are making the next expected mistake - acting as if we were "getting up in arms" about it. The sequence is this: do something slightly dumb - act obtuse - if challenged or proven wrong, act as if the "opponent" is totally overreacting. It's the tactical retreat of the "you're so offended" crowd that knows they're wrong, but they go ahead and act it out anyway.

You try to frame it as if there was nothing between complete ignorance and hysterical, narcissistic drama. You try to retcon it to an _outrage_. Which is a type of backtracking through an attempt to discredit. _I *just* said XY and now they're *going all crazy*._


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## CT (Nov 21, 2021)

The world can be weird, and life difficult. Let's try to not worsen either of those for each other, at a minimum. Anyone who can't manage that level of basic decency can piss off.


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## timbit2006 (Nov 21, 2021)

You felt the need to make a whole thread and derail the entire TSS thread and you just pointed out flaws in what other people said instead of saying anything positive about Japan that we should be idolizing. So tell us... What should we be thinking of when we think of Japan. I apparently do not know

I will also add my personal experience: Both Japanese students I've lived with laughed hilariously at our typical burger and fries meal to the point where they took a picture of it. One of my idols, a Japanese heavy metal musician that goes by the name Gezol posted on facebook 2-3 years ago laughing about how they are eating american burgers and fries as well.

Just another further edit because I just remembered it: Both of the Japanese students that homestayed with us gave us chopsticks as a gift which I still use to this day over 20 years later. One of them gave my mom a traditional Japanese tea serving tray as well. Those are two stereotypes you complained about in the TSS thread but yet my family received those items as a gift from genuine Japanese people that had no real prior exposure to western culture. It was the same thing with the Chinese students. They came with Moonpies and traditional Chinese protection talismans as gifts. All 6 Korean students that homestayed with us arrived with packages of Kimchi and "choco-pies". The Thai student gave us bamboo mats from Thailand as a gift and he gave my mom a traditional ceremonial fan. One of them gave us a typical dragon shirt.

I still really am curious what we should be thinking of when we think of Japan.


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## Polkasound (Nov 21, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> That's the one thing people typically resort to if you pay more attention to what they've been saying than they do themselves. Once you close in on the notions and give them some thought, inevitably it's _"you're reading things into what I said "_. Am I? I'm interpreting what you might be saying, even if you didn't mean to say it (which doesn't mean you're not thinking it). Seems like you don't trust your own ability to withstand this scrutiny?


I typically love your posts, but this one sounds like you might be having a bad day. You can't add material between the lines and insist it's what the other person was intending to say. You can assume and you can ask, but if they say you're reading too far into what they wrote, then you're reading too far into what they wrote.



Jimmy Hellfire said:


> You act as if the banality of capitalistic export commodities _is_ Japan, and as if japanese people as individuals chose that to be their collective identity and are now acting pissy if they get reduced to that.


I didn't get that impression at all from Crowe's post. Although his post is intertwined with personal opinion, I took it at face value, and it seems to me he's trying to get a better understanding of how and why moon feels the way he does.



Jimmy Hellfire said:


> But just because it's the next logical part of this whole fun exercise, let me point out that you are making the next expected mistake - acting as if we were "getting up in arms" about it. The sequence is this: do something slightly dumb - act obtuse - if challenged or proven wrong, act as if the "opponent" is totally overreacting. It's the tactical retreat of the "you're so offended" crowd that knows they're wrong, but they go ahead and act it out anyway.
> 
> You try to frame it as if there was nothing between complete ignorance and hysterical, narcissistic drama. You try to retcon it to an _outrage_. Which is a type of backtracking through an attempt to discredit. _I *just* said XY and now they're *going all crazy*._


Now now... no need to go all Dr. Phil on the guy.


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## quickbrownf0x (Nov 21, 2021)

Can I still post clips from Family Guy at the dry cleaners, though? Or should I just stick to asking when Zebra3 is coming out? Btw, these clogs are really messing up my sustain pedal timing. I want to grab my sneakers from downstairs, but it's dark, my windmill stairs are really steep and narrow and I don't want to hit my head on the ceiling fan, trip, fall face down in the oranjekoek I left on the living room table. I'm way too high to take that chance.


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## ptram (Nov 21, 2021)

Crowe said:


> Even within countries folks view things differently from each other.


I come from a country that is the subject of countless stereotypes. I take them for fun, and always try to explain what is not accurate in the stereotypes.

Then, a compatriot of mine arrives, and acts in a way that confirms all the stereotypes…



Crowe said:


> So going around saying 'westerners can't complain and should get out of their micro horizons' is interesting, but unhelpful.


I must also add that while we westerners may have some issues in getting our nose out (but also a long history of trying to do it, and I suspect the whole debate about knowing the other cultures better is something very much westerner), it is not that the rest of the world is more open to the other cultures.

Paolo


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## ptram (Nov 21, 2021)

By the way, don't forget to buy this library!









Spaghetti Western


Visit the post for more.




www.fluffyaudio.com


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## CT (Nov 21, 2021)

ptram said:


> By the way, don't forget to buy this library!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah... it means nothing to this specific thread but I'm certain my old Italian grandmother and the others who'd come to New York themselves from Calabria would probably just chuckle about this.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 21, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> I typically love your posts, but this one sounds like you might be having a bad day. You can't add material between the lines and insist it's what the other person was intending to say. You can assume and you can ask, but if they say you're reading too far into what they wrote, then you're reading too far into what they wrote.


But I didn't "add" anything. Dude just claims I did.

Communication is a cultural process of coding and decoding. What people hear when you speak will be a product of your coding and their decoding processes, and both are defined by our individual experience. We're not computers, you can't send a set ot 0s and 1s to another machine. Interpretations, assumptions and questions are expected. The more our sets of codes are similar to each other, the more we are able to unmistakenly understand each other. That becomes less and less likely the more multi-layered topics get.

What I said was: it sounds as if you were saying XY. If we're now at the point where you're not allowed to listen to a statement and say: wait, I think you're saying this and that - then who is actually the "offended" party here? A statement _cannot _be off limits once the person simply says "oh, that's not what I meant". That's the exact thing that populists and dirty lawyers do - put something out there and once it's questioned simply play the "silly me" card.

I could be wrong with an assumption. Happens all the time. But to expect people to not have assumptions, even if you're possibly blathering at least debatable bits - isn't that kind of convenient? Especially when you backtrack without refuting the assumption in any way -and your own statement included a fair share of assumptions as well. I mean remember, _he _was the dude who wanted to debate it out.

I don't know, these people who keep calling everyone around them thin-skinned sure seem to be thin-skinned. /shrug


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## dzilizzi (Nov 21, 2021)

I do think a lot of the jokey names they were coming up with made no sense, other than the anime related ones. And really only because most who are interested in the library became that way because the love music from anime movies and TSS will allow them to get that sound better than any other string library out there. But I do think you got a little too much into the telling everyone off when you found it offensive to you. No one was trying to be offensive, and I get that is not an excuse, but it is better to teach than get angry. You just complained about how everything offends you. One of my best friends is Chinese (as in from China), she finds stereotypes about Chinese funny for the most part and makes jokes about it. But she also shares things about her culture with me. If you can't have a sense of humor about it while sharing what is actually real about the culture, you will find it hard to keep friends who don't share your culture. 

Plus it is really tiring and stressful to be offended all the time. I guess maybe because I'm old now, but it takes a lot to really offend me. It's not worth it. Though I do try not to be too offensive to others.


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## timprebble (Nov 21, 2021)

re the poll, I don't think its for others to tell you how to feel, or to validate your feelings. My only advice is to learn to use the IGNORE function. There is no obligation to be exposed to someone if their behaviour or language offends you. (For example I loathe sports and the idea of being in a sports bar or at a game to me is repulsive. But guess what? I have zero exposure to sports fans - they can do what they like, and so can I.)

ps it is also worth saying, no Westerner/gaijin is ever going to have much other than a very superficial knowledge of Japanese culture. For a really brutal example, if I mention Japan in coversation more than a few people have told me how they fell in love with Japan via a film by Sofia Coppolla called Lost in Translation. I didn't like the film much (despite Bill Murray usually being reliably great) A few times when I've been in Japan and discussing film I have asked locals what they think of that particular film, and have always been met with a shrug of the shoulders. Then I read this review by a Japanese writer and I understood... Sofia Coppolla is a clever director, an intelligent and well informed & travelled person and yet still, it seems she was oblivious to how offensive many aspects of her film are. If she can make such huge mistakes, some leeway should be made for people who may know nothing about Japan other than eating sushi and watching anime.


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## bill5 (Nov 21, 2021)

applegrovebard said:


> To me, stereotypes aren't bad per se. Many stereotypes in specific contexts I wouldn't approve of, sure. What we call stereotypes are part of how humans always have and always will try to get by in the world by noticing what kinds of people, things, actions seem to occur together more often than chance would suggest. There are positive as well as negative stereotypes and any stereotype may contain no, a little or considerable truth. Stand-up comedians of both sexes often provoke considerable laughter of recognition from both sexes by pointing out 'stereotypes' about the behaviour of each sex.


Comedians have also historically gotten and even now still get a ton of mileage out of other stereotypes too...racial, ethnic, age related, etc etc. And they are funny and resonate because most stereotypes have their basis in truth (and even more so now because there are so many hypersensitive people who freak out about it). That doesn't mean they're always true, or are true at all any more, if they ever were. I think it just reminds us of our flaws as human beings, either in the stereotype itself or in the perceptions of it. We are a very silly species


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## LamaRose (Nov 21, 2021)

Get an ancestral DNA test and you'll probably be suffering with "offendedness" the rest of your days. 

I'm of German, Irish, Native American heritage and probably others with said testing. And to be brutally honest, I wouldn't give a rat's ass if someone "called" me a Nazi-redskin-lucky charm on this or any other forum... simple reason why: 

Compared with all of the loss, pain, angst, challenges that life has caused me, and that _I_ have caused others, personal insults - intentional or not - are but feathered barbs thrown by equally lightweight contenders in this arena we call life. I actually pity those who easily insult or are easily insulted because life will swallow them hard and whole.


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## DCPImages (Nov 21, 2021)

My sixpence worth:
* Racism is never acceptable 
* Diversity is the lifeblood of creativity 
* Stereotypes are what people fall back on when they don’t know much about a subject
* Relentless use of stereotypes erases individuality and diversity and can be very tiresome and demoralising for the target


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## Crowe (Nov 21, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> But I didn't "add" anything. Dude just claims I did.
> 
> Communication is a cultural process of coding and decoding. What people hear when you speak will be a product of your coding and their decoding processes, and both are defined by our individual experience. We're not computers, you can't send a set ot 0s and 1s to another machine. Interpretations, assumptions and questions are expected. The more our sets of codes are similar to each other, the more we are able to unmistakenly understand each other. That becomes less and less likely the more multi-layered topics get.
> 
> ...



Nah man. I just explained my position and you made it into something it wasn't. You added a lot of things and have now turned *both* of my post into what you want them to be, while acting all interesting and throwing around pretty subjective 'observations' just so you can be right. You're just an asshat like the rest of us.

Have fun ripping this one out of context too.


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## Denix (Nov 21, 2021)

Denying the legitimacy of someones feelings is just not okay. Not in the "real world" or an "echo-chamber". It is about feeling offended and clarifying the intentions or accepting that you were wrong and you can learn something. If intended... Of cource, we can all become cynical or even better, we can be so proud of our thick skin that we offend someone and tell him afterwards, he should`t be a pussy, because we are not offended easily... Well... I`m pretty shure we could find something!


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## Polkasound (Nov 21, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Communication is a cultural process of coding and decoding. What people hear when you speak will be a product of your coding and their decoding processes, and both are defined by our individual experience.


I think you stated that perfectly, however, tact and civility should still guide what you say and how you say it after you're done decoding. If you think someone is intending to mean more than what they're saying, especially if it's something negative, consider kindly asking for clarification before assuming or insisting your assumption is right. _"I want to make sure I understand your point of view. Are you saying..."_ goes a long way toward keeping a conversation amicable.




Jimmy Hellfire said:


> A statement _cannot _be off limits once the person simply says "oh, that's not what I meant".


Yes, but you have to argue what the person said, not what you think they wanted to say. And if they tell you your assumption is incorrect, then it's incorrect. I've been in a few debates in the past where I've simply replied with "No, that's not what I said. Please re-read my post."




Jimmy Hellfire said:


> But I didn't "add" anything. Dude just claims I did.


Crowe brought up Japanese exports and posed questions to get a better understanding of moon's point of view. Then you came in from left field with:

_"You act as if the banality of capitalistic export commodities is Japan, and as if japanese people as individuals chose that to be their collective identity and are now acting pissy if they get reduced to that. You surely know that's totally missing the mark."_​
Crowe corrected you by telling you that you were reading too far into his post, but then you went on to imply that you weren't:



Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Once you close in on the notions and give them some thought, inevitably it's _"you're reading things into what I said "_. Am I?





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> even if you didn't mean to say it (which doesn't mean you're not thinking it).





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> People [are] rarely conscious about their thoughts and ideas.



And then everyone on VI-Control be like:










dzilizzi said:


> I guess maybe because I'm old now, but it takes a lot to really offend me.


I'm the same way. If someone verbally ripped me to shreds, blasphemed my God, cursed my cats, trashed my music, and called me every Polish and German epithet under the sun, my response would be, "Darn it, if only Savage made that interception, the Packers would be tied for first place in the NFC!"




LamaRose said:


> I actually pity those who easily insult or are easily insulted because life will swallow them hard and whole.





bill5 said:


> Being offended, with or without cause, is all the rage.


When someone expresses how offended they are by a word, symbol, or stereotype, my first reaction is to wish they would decide not to let it offend them anymore. They are the ones who are giving power to it. But I must also concede I didn't grow up a Jew in Nazi Germany, or a Black slave in the 1800s, or a displaced Native American, nor have I ever lived as a minority, a disabled person, or a woman. The only life I've experienced is that of a middle class Christian Caucasian male from the suburbs. Regardless, I still believe today's extreme political correctness, cancel culture, and fad-like hypersensitivity are weakening our country. We wouldn't need all those band-aids if people weren't so easy to wound.


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## moon (Nov 21, 2021)

Thanks again all for your comments. It's good to know we can have (mostly) civil conversation about things like this! There are a few things I want to address.

Firstly, I do want to apologize to the fine folks over at ISW for clogging up their thread initially. They don't deserve that. They are all wonderful, respectful people who are turning out great products. I also want to apologize to @gedlig for how I approached this topic. It wasn't right for me to use your comments as an example without having discussion with you about it first. That was disrespectful and wrong of me to do and I'm truly sorry.

Secondly, I would like to change the vocabulary I used. I think "offended" was perhaps not the best word for me to use. (And judging by some of the comments here, it also appears to be pretty offensive to some!) Perhaps "annoyed as hell" and "tired of hearing this" are more appropriate.

Thirdly and most importantly, I think a lot of those here are not going to see things from my perspective, and that's okay. As an ethnic minority in the USA, my experiences and my life are going to be different from most other people's, just as your lives are probably different from most others'. Through my life, I've heard countless little remarks that utilized stereotypes that have just added up through the years. That is the real world for me. I know 99.99999999% of them are said by people who mean no ill will, it's just frustrating and I'm tired of having to listen to it. Whether or not I've accomplished my goal of getting people to think about how their words affect others, I don't know, but at least I spoke up and said my piece!

P.S. Some people here really need to work on their reading comprehension!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 22, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> ...


What I take from this that you're mostly addressing the issue of tone and tact. That's fair, but in the end it's just a question of flavor. My answer to that is: we need to admit that we're all soapboxing here. It's a bunch of armchair quarterbacking and mental gymnastics. I don't condemn that, I'm obviously a seasoned player in this sport, haha.

I felt that the thread was developing somewhat of a one-sided drift and that it would be fun stirring that up a bit. Everyone seems to agree nowadays that offended people are the worst. It's such a low hanging fruit. Why not introduce a little bit of headwind? Destabilizing people in their confidence a bit is fun, because it's a form of intellectually challenging their stance. I don't mean it as a social crusade. It's fair game, it's not like anyone was doing anything different. I think it worked formidably.

I know some people don't enjoy it when you do that to them. You wanna put something out there and all of a sudden you're on the back foot. But I mean, you're a big boy, you're telling people that they're too sensitive and_ offended™_, surely you can take a little tackle yourself? Talk about being caught with one's pants down. People are gonna cry about Jimmy Hellfire because he sounds so snooty while he hits you where you're weak. That's so very disruptive. But we know I'm not really the one who's out of line here.

I absolutely do get your perspective that objections like mine could be placed in a less provoking and more diplomatic manner. But it comes at the cost of honesty and it shows when someone is not prepared for scrutiny on a subject matter level. I still think that the defense was weak. And then in turns into whining quickly, with the very expetcable "you're twisting my words" complaint and the ad hominems ("you're hysterical", "you don't have any friends"). Or remarks of the type "offended people should be used as meat shields".  Why is it again that I'm justifying myself for my presumed lack of tact?

Hey, I don't mean any harm. It's all good fun, is it not.


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## Henu (Nov 22, 2021)

I kind of miss the days when we humans used to have personalities instead of identity groups.


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## DCPImages (Nov 22, 2021)

Henu said:


> I kind of miss the days when we humans used to have personalities instead of identity groups.


You mean like English and French or Catholic and Protestant?


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## DCPImages (Nov 22, 2021)

DCPImages said:


> You mean like English and French or Catholic and Protestant?


Or Capulet and Montague


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## Henu (Nov 22, 2021)

Or orcs and humans! But I guess you did get the idea that I was rather talking about the non-zealot types of ordinary (western) society representatives.


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## DCPImages (Nov 22, 2021)

Henu said:


> Or orcs and humans! But I guess you did get the idea that I was rather talking about the non-zealot types of ordinary (western) society representatives.


Or Zealots versus Romans


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## DCPImages (Nov 22, 2021)

Henu said:


> Or orcs and humans! But I guess you did get the idea that I was rather talking about the non-zealot types of ordinary (western) society representativ


Point is that identity groups are nothing new or nowadays more harmful. Sadly, humans have always divided along identity lines. That is why we have wars.


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## AudioLoco (Nov 22, 2021)

To the OP:
I don't know exactly what has been said to you, but:
You shouldn't feel guilty about feeling bad when people talk BS and use idiotic, racist and xenophobic language. Even when "joking". 
They are not "offending" you as an individual. That is too reductive of what is going on.
They are offending human intelligence and contribuiting to stereotypes that, over the years, if recognized by a whole community as acceptable as innocent banter, will bring to more, less jolly consequences.
You will find that most of the times these "innocent hahah talk" people are the ones who will resort to actions which will range from simple exclusion and public shaming of individuals and communities to actual acts of violence.

The only thing that an individual can do when another individual is telling them they are crossing a line is to apologize, learn from the mistake and stop saying and writing certain things.
If they tell you you are a snowflake it means they just want to keep having the privilege of preserving their dominance and ignorant cultural violence over you.

Especially as these times are so ugly and racists are actually gaining power everywhere in the world it is a even more important to eradicate a certain type of hateful language.

You are not a snowflake.


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## gedlig (Nov 22, 2021)

moon said:


> Thanks again all for your comments. It's good to know we can have (mostly) civil conversation about things like this! There are a few things I want to address.
> 
> Firstly, I do want to apologize to the fine folks over at ISW for clogging up their thread initially. They don't deserve that. They are all wonderful, respectful people who are turning out great products. I also want to apologize to @gedlig for how I approached this topic. It wasn't right for me to use your comments as an example without having discussion with you about it first. That was disrespectful and wrong of me to do and I'm truly sorry.
> 
> ...


No need to apologise. Use my nonsenses as an example of what you don't like :D It was neither disrespectful, nor wrong. You have your annoyances, so just express them, nothing to worry about. I'm not here to make you think differently (I only saw this thread by accident when looking at latest posts, wouldn't even care otherwise), just to add some mental context to my posts. Do with that whatever you want  Free thinking and all that

(Also I really want to take a wild guess that you're probably from California, cause that place seems to me like some detached bubble that has no idea how the rest of the world sees things :D)


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## Trash Panda (Nov 22, 2021)

@moon I apologize for any of my contributions to that thread which caused offense or feelings of marginalization. There was no malicious intent involved on my part, but I still recognize and own the consequences of my words because that's what civilized adults do _should do._

We can't control how we feel, so it's impossible to "not be so offended/sensitive". All we can control is how we channel those emotions. There is a pretty huge convergence of a Venn diagram of the folks who say "Stop being so sensitive, snowflake" and the folks who get up in arms when the topic at hand offends them. Everyone is sensitive about something.

Many of those who dismiss ethnic marginalization can also be found supporting/partaking in efforts to ban devil rock/metal, violent video games and books that highlight the less pleasant parts of America's history because that _offends them_.

A lot of people really need to do some self-reflection and take off the blinders they've put in place to their own hypocrisy.


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## Tralen (Nov 22, 2021)

The problem with racial stereotypes is that, if left unchecked, they can be abused to dehumanize people and justify atrocities that range from racial segregation to genocide.


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## ResidentSmeagol (Nov 22, 2021)

As someone who's worked on a ton of music for anime, Jpop, and Japanese video games, I've spent many, many years living in Tokyo and Osaka. You can spend forever there and still not "get" what the Japanese people and culture are all about. I've had Japanese friends who even don't get their own culture sometimes and when I asked for clarification on things, they'd shrug and say, "I have no idea - it doesn't make sense". Japan and Japanese culture is like its own planet. 

You'd really be offended if you knew what most Japanese I've encountered think of weebs and Americans who are obsessed with anime.


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## Gene Pool (Nov 22, 2021)

Tralen said:


> The problem with racial stereotypes is that, if left unchecked, they can be abused to dehumanize people and justify atrocities that range from racial segregation to genocide.


A true and timely observation after yesterday's hate crime, the Christmas parade massacre in Waukesha, Wisconsin. Five innocents killed and dozens wounded, all because of the color of their skin.


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## Polkasound (Nov 22, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> ...all because of the color of their skin.


I've been following this as I live minutes from Waukesha. Naturally, speculation and theories about Darrel's motives are making their way around the internet, but the initial charges won't even be filed until a little later this afternoon. No statements have yet been made about his motives.

I didn't personally know any of the victims, but over the years, I've shared the stage with the Dancing Grannies, who lost three of their members in yesterday's tragedy. They are an absolutely wonderful group of kindhearted, uplifting people. I cannot fathom how they may ever recover from this. Please keep them and all the victims in your thoughts and prayers.


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## gedlig (Nov 23, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Who is trying to ban metal and _Call of Duty_?


Christian, muslim authorities, Karens, the stupid kind of boomers in governments, Justin Bieber and One Direction fans probably


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## gedlig (Nov 23, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> metal hasn't been relevant since way before I was born.


Whatever you want to believe


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 24, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Metal bands/fans would LOVE to be getting grief from religious authorities like back in the glory days


Not really, Metal today is mostly played by slightly overweight upper middle class computer and video game nerds who really don't want no trouble.


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## Henu (Nov 24, 2021)

WHO TOLD YOU


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## patrick76 (Nov 24, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Not really, Metal today is mostly played by slightly overweight upper middle class computer and video game nerds who really don't want no trouble.


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## PeterN (Nov 25, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Metal bands/fans would LOVE to be getting grief from religious authorities like back in the glory days... alas, the world has moved on. There's nothing in music less edgy than a metal band.


Its the other way around now, - nowadays you provoke metal bands by becoming religious ( or even just flirting with the idea, in similar way,but opposite, like people flirted and provoked with stuff like black sabbaths etc.). The metal bands will try to tag you now with parental advisory.


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## MA-Simon (Nov 25, 2021)

Unfortunately most of the Japan released media I consumed in my time, is furthering those stereotypes. So blame can't be put on fans entirely. Media might want you to belive most japanese gamers _are pervs_. Gaming magazines only reinforce that. Girls in skimpy outfits and tangas in horror games. And yes, Rahmen noodles. (Remember that infamous Cup-o-Noodles advertising thing in Final Fantasy 15?).

If you want to get a more realistic look, there are youtube videos were people just walk arround japan with a camera for hours. Very relaxing. Walking trough traditional temple and party districts. After watching a lot of those, My opinion of japan is very "_traditional temples meet dystopian advetising_ and vending machines".


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## dzilizzi (Nov 25, 2021)

MA-Simon said:


> Unfortunately most of the Japan released media I consumed in my time, is furthering those stereotypes. So blame can't be put on fans entirely. Media might want you to belive most japanese gamers _are pervs_. Gaming magazines only reinforce that. Girls in skimpy outfits and tangas in horror games. And yes, Rahmen noodles. (Remember that infamous Cup-o-Noodles advertising thing in Final Fantasy 15?).
> 
> If you want to get a more realistic look, there are youtube videos were people just walk arround japan with a camera for hours. Very relaxing. Walking trough traditional temple and party districts. After watching a lot of those, My opinion of japan is very "_traditional temples meet dystopian advetising_ and vending machines".


And very tiny apartments. Though, seriously, I’ve seen similar tiny apartments on NYC YouTube videos too.


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## MA-Simon (Nov 25, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> And very tiny apartments. Though, seriously, I’ve seen similar tiny apartments on NYC YouTube videos too.


I love those videos. Makes me feel marginally better about my small apartment in berlin.


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## dzilizzi (Nov 25, 2021)

MA-Simon said:


> I love those videos. Makes me feel marginally better about my small apartment in berlin.


When I lived in LA while in school, I lived in a couple guest houses (really pool houses) that were tiny like that, so I find it interesting how they utilize the space. Most are really an amazing use of minimal space.


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## rMancer (Nov 25, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Really my initial post was rhetorical. Metal bands/fans would LOVE to be getting grief from religious authorities like back in the glory days... alas, the world has moved on. There's nothing in music less edgy than a metal band.


I've also got to add that at least a few of my metalhead friends are vegan, cat-loving, pacifist potheads (a few are also the aforementioned slightly overweight nerds) who are also into all kinds of other music... bebop, bluegrass, ambient, classical, IDM, pop, whatever.

The metalheads I've known (and played with) aren't trying to be edgy or counterculture. They just love what they love. I always love hearing their playlists on shuffle... Car Bomb, Debussy, Sleep, Brian Eno, Mastadon, ABBA, Sepultura, Michael Jackson, Meshuggah, Joni Mitchell, Pantera, Earl Scruggs, Dimmu Borgir, Aphex Twin, Marduk, Al Green, etc.

I think there's definitely an _aesthetic_ that might suggest a counterculture aspect, but I've known, played with, and lived with a bunch of metalheads over the years and they were all kind, intelligent (well except for Joe), and open-minded (...not Joe) people with mortgages and collared shirts.

"Fuck the man" has turned into things like advocating for LGBT/human/animal rights, promoting race and gender equality, raising awareness for mental illness and neurodivergence, etc. Those just happen to be the sorts of things that get them grief from authorities these days.


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