# VSL Orchestral Strings?



## Count_Fuzzball (Apr 9, 2018)

I know VSL's orchestral strings are often described as 'cold' and 'sterile'.
To my ears the no-vibrato strings sound very "lifeless", while the 'molto vibrato' seem to just have an imperceptible amount of vibrato.. not much better, imo.

There's also the fact the samples appear to have alot of bow noise(or resin? I'm not sure of the technical violin term) that, to my ears, make the sound very "grainy" or "cloudy" compared to what I hear in nearly every other string library (i.e a shimmering 'wall' of strings in CSS, Adventure Strings, Hollywood Strings, etc).

Are my ears too used the "vibrato-laden, FFF dynamic" 18-20 violin sections that are all the rage for modern film music such that a standard orchestral 14 violin section sounds "off" and "unrealistic"?


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## robgb (Apr 9, 2018)

VSL strings sound great. You just have to know how to use them.


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## Eric G (Apr 9, 2018)

Check out this thread.


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## Casiquire (Apr 9, 2018)

That's about what a studio recording of strings sounds like. I've noticed over the years that composers here tend to ride the modwheel too high, it's instant gratification. That makes that harsh rosin sound more prominent. The link provided by @Eric G is a great example of how to use VSL. According to the OP there, he isn't using any EQ. It's about well controlled dynamics and good writing.

A few dry libraries get this same criticism because they aren't built to be heard straight out of the box.


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## ajsealy (Apr 9, 2018)

robgb said:


> VSL strings sound great. You just have to know how to use them.



This this this. The only VSL libraries I have are special edition - and while I may not use all of their patches, there are some that are just unrivaled within my inventory. Learning how to use them to your advantage is key. Their chamber strings are perfect for certain things that I do, but for larger ensembles, I usually opt for another library.


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## JJP (Apr 9, 2018)

As a person who deals with live ensembles regularly, I like the VSL strings as well. I think today many VI people are going for a hyped string sound that to my ears isn't realistic.


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## germancomponist (Apr 9, 2018)

robgb said:


> VSL strings sound great. You just have to know how to use them.


True for all libraries! Yes, no?


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## germancomponist (Apr 9, 2018)

JJP said:


> As a person who deals with live ensembles regularly, I like the VSL strings as well. I think today many VI people are going for a hyped string sound that to my ears isn't realistic.


Huh ... . Can u post an example, a piece done by the developer?


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## Arbee (Apr 9, 2018)

JJP said:


> As a person who deals with live ensembles regularly, I like the VSL strings as well. I think today many VI people are going for a hyped string sound that to my ears isn't realistic.


I agree, though "real strings" to me is a studio string sound rather than a concert hall awash with natural acoustics. Perhaps that's why VSL sounds more "real" to me. Many ambient libraries are so awash with ambience, I have no idea how the strings actually sound.


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## germancomponist (Apr 9, 2018)

Arbee said:


> I agree, though "real strings" to me is a studio string sound rather than a concert hall awash with natural acoustics. Perhaps that's why VSL sounds more "real" to me. Many ambient libraries are so awash with ambience, I have no idea how the strings actually sound.


Really? http://www.cinematicstudioseries.com/strings.html
https://www.vi-control.net/community/threads/a-magical-journey-fantasy-adventure.68980/


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## MusicIstheBest (Apr 9, 2018)

I think even the VSL strings that come with Kontakt sound great. They're limited, but have a pleasing realistic presence.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 9, 2018)

JJP said:


> As a person who deals with live ensembles regularly, I like the VSL strings as well. I think today many VI people are going for a hyped string sound that to my ears isn't realistic.



I keep thinking about just throwing down the money and buying VSL, but I can't afford all of it, its like $14,000 for the full super package. Which VSL strings are you referring to specifically?


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## Jay Panikkar (Apr 9, 2018)

It depends entirely on what you're trying to do with your samples.

Are you trying to reproduce the sound of an orchestra at a concert? If so, you would want dry samples with the raw sound of the instruments. Vienna Symphonic Library gives you exactly that. The folks at VSL do not colour their samples apart from applying some corrective process.

Are you trying to reproduce the sound of an orchestral soundtrack? If so, you would want wet samples recorded and mixed towards the "produced" colour of soundtracks. Most of the other developers give you exactly this. Their samples are often heavily processed so you get a hyped sound out of the box.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 9, 2018)

If they're good enough for Elfman...


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## Mike Fox (Apr 9, 2018)

germancomponist said:


> True for all libraries! Yes, no?


No. Some libraries sound good by just holding down a key. Phrase libraries would be the most extreme example.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 9, 2018)

I've never used VSL and there certainly seems to be a lot of people out there speaking highly of it and other people that remain extremely cynical about it. Its hard to know.

What impresses me the most when I check out videos and stuff related to orchestral mockup where I see people using it, is the level of control that is possible with it.. The Vienna instrument Pro software, the matrix, etc. And then there are just a lot of very evenly balanced articulations, so they say... I am pretty sure that it takes more work to produce a great sounding piece of music then it may be with some other libraries, but what you get is just a lot more control over things and a very cohesive sound between all the different parts. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I personally LIKE the fact that it allegedly can be made more to sound like an orchestra in a concert hall. That is actually what an orchestra sounds like! The big Epic sound everyone wants for movies, well...it might take more work to get that with VSL vs using something where its all baked in...but me personally I'm pretty sure that's what I want.. I'm likely to get VSL eventually in some form, but its not in the budget for now.


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## germancomponist (Apr 9, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> No. Some libraries sound good by just holding down a key. Phrase libraries would be the most extreme example.


Huh, I was talking about serious libraries ... . Did you listen to the 2 examples I have posted here? Do this with a VSL library!


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## kitekrazy (Apr 9, 2018)

MusicIstheBest said:


> I think even the VSL strings that come with Kontakt sound great. They're limited, but have a pleasing realistic presence.


Anyone who has never had an orchestra library I recommend Kontakt. The libraries are decent and they are also getting the top platform used for orchestra.


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## JJP (Apr 9, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Which VSL strings are you referring to specifically?


I have Orchestral, Appassionata, Chamber, and Dimension Strings. They to take more work, but I appreciate the flexibility. 

Like a live section, I don't always want them to sound the same -- different sounds for different projects. Sometimes I want the sound of a smaller section in a small room with lots of bite to cut through in a pop setting. Other times I want the sound of a big orchestral section in a big hall with lots of reverb.

However many people stick to a particular style and just want it to work straight out of the box. That's perfectly fine too.


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## Dear Villain (Apr 9, 2018)

I work almost exclusively with VSL for all my orchestral and chamber music. It's true that they require more effort, but the results are worth it. So many people are tuned in to the Hollywood sound that they'd be shocked listening to a live orchestra, which is what VSL emulates convincingly.

Cheers!
Dave


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## EgM (Apr 9, 2018)

I will echo the previous posters opinions in the fact that you need to know how to use VSL instruments. You have a tremendous amount of articulations at your disposal, especially with the extended versions. If you just use pLeg patches with note velocity only and expect it to sound like epic-baked-in-reverb-ready-to-serve libraries, it is not for you, although to me with the right xfade work, I still love a straight run 

I love the orchestral strings from VSL, while "sterile" by epic standards they are quite nice.


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## EgM (Apr 9, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> That's about what a studio recording of strings sounds like. I've noticed over the years that composers here tend to ride the modwheel too high, it's instant gratification. That makes that harsh rosin sound more prominent. The link provided by @Eric G is a great example of how to use VSL. According to the OP there, he isn't using any EQ. It's about well controlled dynamics and good writing.
> 
> A few dry libraries get this same criticism because they aren't built to be heard straight out of the box.



This a thousand times!

I rarely run the modwheel more than 60% on my VIs. I don't know what the hell is wrong with VI users these last years but it seems everyone wants every section to run on constant fff...

The whole "Trailer" scene is boring to my ears and is actually a pain to listen to.


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## novaburst (Apr 10, 2018)

EgM said:


> you need to know how to use VSL instruments



Essential their is a learning curve, perhaps more than other library's.


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## Count_Fuzzball (Apr 11, 2018)

Thanks everyone for the responses. Been busy IRL the last few days.

Thanks for confirming my hypothesis. I had tried using some reverb too with the VSL strings (specifically the Orchestral Strings) and no EQ, so I guess it's just me being way too used to the 'far-miced concert hall' wash of orchestral strings, as opposed to a more "studio" classical orchestra that VSL aims for.

Though I'm still less convinced about the lack of "lush" molto-vibrato in the samples. But I guess that's just a matter of taste. :D


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## kitekrazy (Apr 11, 2018)

Their software is incredible. Their special edition libraries are great for the money. The Perc. and More is a steal for under $50. You can upgrade the instruments in that fairly cheap.


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## robgb (Apr 11, 2018)

MusicIstheBest said:


> I think even the VSL strings that come with Kontakt sound great. They're limited, but have a pleasing realistic presence.


Actually. the legacy VSL orchestral instruments in Kontakt are even better. Much more control. They include modwheel crossfade versions also. And they can be spruced up with SIPS and WIPS scripts to make them even better. I always encourage newbies to take a close look at the legacy library before they spend a lot of money on an orchestral library. Use what's available in-house before dropping another paycheck.


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## robgb (Apr 11, 2018)

EgM said:


> sound like epic-baked-in-reverb-ready-to-serve libraries


LOL. Yes, such libraries are very seductive.


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## Casiquire (Apr 12, 2018)

robgb said:


> Actually. the legacy VSL orchestral instruments in Kontakt are even better. Much more control. They include modwheel crossfade versions also. And they can be spruced up with SIPS and WIPS scripts to make them even better. I always encourage newbies to take a close look at the legacy library before they spend a lot of money on an orchestral library. Use what's available in-house before dropping another paycheck.



How is this even better than the full versions? You can do all of this in the free VI


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## robgb (Apr 12, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> How is this even better than the full versions? You can do all of this in the free VI


There are no crossfades in the newer versions, for one thing. A major difference. You can't add SIPS/WIPS or other third party scripts without causing conflicts with the GUI's scripting and in some instances making the instruments unplayable.


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## Casiquire (Apr 13, 2018)

robgb said:


> There are no crossfades in the newer versions, for one thing. A major difference. You can't add SIPS/WIPS or other third party scripts without causing conflicts with the GUI's scripting and in some instances making the instruments unplayable.



How do you mean there are no crossfades? All my dynamics are crossfaded


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 13, 2018)

I think robgb refers to the Kontakt factory samples while Casiquire is talking about the "real" VSL Strings.


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## robgb (Apr 13, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> How do you mean there are no crossfades? All my dynamics are crossfaded


Are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking about these instruments—No crossfade dynamics. There's a velocity/volume wheel in the options section, but it if you tie a CC1 to it, it works backward, so kind of useless. There's a level knob in the instrument section, but it controls only volume, not dynamics. If you try to add any SIPS or WIPS scripts to these instruments, the scripts conflict with NI's scripting. If you know something I don't about them, any help would be appreciated. (They do seem to have CC 11 expression control, but that's volume only, not velocity.)


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## robgb (Apr 13, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I think robgb refers to the Kontakt factory samples while Casiquire is talking about the "real" VSL Strings.


I think you're right.


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## Casiquire (Apr 13, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I think robgb refers to the Kontakt factory samples while Casiquire is talking about the "real" VSL Strings.



That's exactly right, but when Rob said "the newer versions" and when I said "the full versions" I thought we were talking about the full libraries lol


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## Count_Fuzzball (Apr 15, 2018)

Dunno how to quote things on this forum. :\

But, what's the difference between the 'legacy' Kontakt VSL instruments and the 'new' Kontakt VSL ones?

Aren't there (some) legato instruments in there, or are they just 1 octave demoware (like in the old old gigastudio version)?


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 15, 2018)

So I have been salivating over VSL for quite a while and thinking about making an investment. However after looking at all the stuff they sell, its quite confusing where to spend the money there. There is the Cube, which would be roughly a $5k investment to get the full version...which I guess would be fairly complete, but then I hear everyone talking about Dimension stuff and now Sychron stuff...which means even more.. What do you guys think would be the right combination of stuff to get from them with say around a $5k budget? Would you get Cube, or would you hand pick various different instruments, for example Dimension Strings instead of what normally comes with Cube and so forth.. ??


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## Eric G (Apr 15, 2018)

Wow, I just went through this with VSL. My personal decision, which always should be made based on your composing and production weaknesses and limitations, was to go with VSL Cube. And trust me there was a week of going through spreadsheets and comparing pricing of bundles etc....

So start with do you have any of the other Software products? Like VI Pro, MIR or VI Ensemble Pro or Vienna Suite. I had all of them. What's compelling is that if you have them, and you get the CUBE then you have all the PRESETS for the instruments. So no need to start from scratch Setting up your template on EQ, Reverb or Balancing the orchestra. If you piecemeal VSL stuff with other Libraries, you discover, at least my skill level, that its not time well spent. By going all VSL with the CUBE has eliminated that for me.

Special Editions are just too limited (A mile wide and an inch deep from an instrument and articulation perspective). They sound great but they are just there new composers of orchestral music.

With the CUBE you get Solo Strings, Chamber Strings and Orchestral Strings. That's enough to get your started because you can mix those together any way you want. For example you can load up Orchestral String Violins and drop a Solo Violin with a 1st Chair Violin PRESET using MIRx and you have a nice sound. Or you can use Chamber Strings for Divisi or layer it under.

I told myself that I needed to EARN my way to Dimension Strings. Unless you know how to write for string players, I would wait for that. I mean there are samples for EACH string on the Violin. Think about that. Synchron Strings is just too new. I am waiting for them to complete the rest of the Synchorn orchestra before I jump into that.

Standard Edition Cube is about € 1,995. You can upgrade the instruments as you evaluate if you need the Extended Articulations. If you don't have the software, and I strongly recommend all of them that will run you another $1500 but are not required. But I you need help with PRODUCTION issues, I would take a close look at them.

Just my thoughts.


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## ludini (Apr 15, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> So I have been salivating over VSL for quite a while and thinking about making an investment. However after looking at all the stuff they sell, its quite confusing where to spend the money there. There is the Cube, which would be roughly a $5k investment to get the full version...which I guess would be fairly complete, but then I hear everyone talking about Dimension stuff and now Sychron stuff...which means even more.. What do you guys think would be the right combination of stuff to get from them with say around a $5k budget? Would you get Cube, or would you hand pick various different instruments, for example Dimension Strings instead of what normally comes with Cube and so forth.. ??


If you're thinking about investing into VSL librarys, I'd highly recommend to buy what they call a Vienna audition credit first to try out everything you want before buying it. I bought one of these a few days ago and found that it makes it a lot clearer what their products are actually like. These credits seem expensive, but can save you a lot of time and money. They're totally worth it, imo.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 15, 2018)

The standard vs Full, its about double the price. what is missing from the standard edition?


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## Eric G (Apr 15, 2018)

If you look on the product page of the Bundle or Instrument under "Sample Content" you will see the articulations in Standard and Extended (FULL) for each instrument.


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## Eric G (Apr 15, 2018)

Also you might want to watch this Westlake Pro 15-part video and DEMO by VSL. Its comprehensive and you can skip over what doesn't interest you.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 15, 2018)

I'm thinking, $2100 for standard edition is probably the place to start, together with Vienna Instruments Pro. I can decide later whether to pickup extended library or Dimension, or what have you. MIR I will have to wait until later, I already have some nice reverbs anyway, but if VSL is setup with presets to take advantage of MIR, then I'd probably add that too in the not too distant future.


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## Eric G (Apr 15, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> I'm thinking, $2100 for standard edition is probably the place to start, together with Vienna Instruments Pro. I can decide later whether to pickup extended library or Dimension, or what have you. MIR I will have to wait until later, I already have some nice reverbs anyway, but if VSL is setup with presets to take advantage of MIR, then I'd probably add that too in the not too distant future.



MIRx costs less than MIR and you can get just one scoring stage presets for all instrument for about $100. And it works with VI Pro. You will notice VSL lets you take a nibble and then take a bigger bite with upgrades.


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## EgM (Apr 15, 2018)

I would definitely go with MIRx Teldex on top of that. It's integrated into Vienna Instruments Pro so you don't have to deal with room/placement if you don't want to.


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## Paul T McGraw (Apr 15, 2018)

I own a lot of libraries. Far more than I need. But I keep coming back to using VSL as my favorite.


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## cadenzajon (Apr 15, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> I'm thinking, $2100 for standard edition is probably the place to start, together with Vienna Instruments Pro.


Some great deals in the VI-C classifieds forum, having bought some VSL libraries secondhand I would thoroughly recommend it. https://vi-control.net/community/th...dard-library-and-vienna-ensemble-pro-6.69490/


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 15, 2018)

I will keep an eye out for second hand for sure...I'm not in any rush... Sounds like at a minimum I should pick up MIRx and quite possibly MIR pro, but maybe I can start with MIRx and upgrade later.


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## Dear Villain (Apr 15, 2018)

I started with the VSL Cube (standard) and it is still all I use today. I have a select few other libraries, but 99% of everything I've ever written is with the Cube standard and Mir Pro.

Dave


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## Casiquire (Apr 15, 2018)

I would definitely suggest getting MIR personally. It's the missing piece of the equation. The hours of fun I can have just in MIR!


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## BlackDorito (Apr 15, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> I'm thinking, $2100 for standard edition is probably the place to start, together with Vienna Instruments Pro. I can decide later whether to pickup extended library or Dimension, or what have you. MIR I will have to wait until later, I already have some nice reverbs anyway, but if VSL is setup with presets to take advantage of MIR, then I'd probably add that too in the not too distant future.


MIR does indeed allow you to load instrument settings that set several parameters tuned for the various VSL instruments.


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## BlackDorito (Apr 15, 2018)

BlackDorito said:


> MIR does indeed allow you to load instrument settings that set several parameters tuned for the various VSL instruments.


Let me also add ... if you are a home studio dude with say one acoustic instrument that you play (perhaps a bass or piano), then you can record it dry, add a few other dry audio tracks (e.g. drums), then use the MIR VST plugin on these tracks to place each instrument (track) on a virtual stage and get a very realistic "audience view" of the ensemble. This particular situation was plaguing me for years ... using algorithmic reverbs and panning, I never could get my acoustic piano (recorded in a bedroom) to truly sound like it was on a stage (the *same* stage) with bass and drums. MIR solved that for me.


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## C-Wave (Apr 15, 2018)

Mir Pro on sale here. I have two, selling one set.


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## novaburst (Apr 16, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> The standard vs Full, its about double the price. what is missing from the standard edition?



Yes it can be quite expensive, I would recommend getting the special edition equivalent of the full library, get a feel of it for a few months then go for the full library

You end up getting huge discounts because you have the SE equivalent to the full. 

The only snag is not all there full library's are on a SE equivalent so it would be a nice root to get hold of dimension Strings. 

And of course SS are not on special edition too, 

Also it seems like every month VSL are doing a 25% discount on random items so depending on your needs you can come out of it very well.

Have a look on there Web page to see the difference between standard and full articulations the difference is quite huge but again you need to see if you out grow the standard articulation, then go for the full again it will come with a nice discount. 

The idea is pay as you go, or pay as you need.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 16, 2018)

When you say there is a nice discount getting from the special edition to full can you please elaborate?


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## robgb (Apr 16, 2018)

novaburst said:


> Yes it can be quite expensive, I would recommend getting the special edition equivalent of the full library, get a feel of it for a few months then go for the full library


I'm still using the Kontakt version of Opus 1, which I believe SE is equal to (I could be wrong about that). If so, it's really all you need unless you really get deep into the articulations. And with SE you'll have the VSL player/controller, which seems pretty nice.


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## DoctorGuitar007 (Apr 16, 2018)

I love VSL. Mir-X was the breakthrough for me; up to then I was put off by it being a dry library as I didn't feel confident about all the reverb / panning / mixing needed to get a realistic sound. Mir-X turned VSL into an 'out of the box' library, but one where I still have the flexibility to turn off Mir and use the dry samples if I want a different effect.
As others have suggested, I started with the Special Editions then upgraded to the Standard / Extended / Full versions of particular instruments as my needs developed. (Or when there was a sale on!)
That said ... I switched to LASS for strings a year or so ago. Partly because my current project wants the "Hollywood" sound which I wasn't getting with VSL (which was down to me, not the library I'm sure. If I'd put the work in I probably could have got the sound from VSL, but LASS had it out of the box and was on sale and cheaper than getting the full version of VSL). Also though, I like that LASS has true divisi and a dedicated 2nd violins. (It always bugged me that VSL didn't do a second violins patch.)
Something else with VSL is that the sample player, Vienna Instruments Pro, is awesome. (I've been amazed to find that even the newly released Play version 6 doesn't let you create custom keyswitch schemes.)


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## novaburst (Apr 16, 2018)

robgb said:


> I'm still using the Kontakt version of Opus 1, which I believe SE is equal to (I could be wrong about that). If so, it's really all you need unless you really get deep into the articulations. And with SE you'll have the VSL player/controller, which seems pretty nice.


Yes definitely the player options would make a big difference in editing and cpu, I do find when comparing SE Orchestral strings with the full version I do notice more density and in some case an extra velocity layer that can make a difference in quality. 

I have played about with the kontakt version while there is some bang there, the players offer so much convenience.


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## Nicola74 (Apr 16, 2018)

DoctorGuitar007 said:


> I love VSL. Mir-X was the breakthrough for me; up to then I was put off by it being a dry library as I didn't feel confident about all the reverb / panning / mixing needed to get a realistic sound. Mir-X turned VSL into an 'out of the box' library, but one where I still have the flexibility to turn off Mir and use the dry samples if I want a different effect.
> As others have suggested, I started with the Special Editions then upgraded to the Standard / Extended / Full versions of particular instruments as my needs developed. (Or when there was a sale on!)
> That said ... I switched to LASS for strings a year or so ago. Partly because my current project wants the "Hollywood" sound which I wasn't getting with VSL (which was down to me, not the library I'm sure. If I'd put the work in I probably could have got the sound from VSL, but LASS had it out of the box and was on sale and cheaper than getting the full version of VSL). Also though, I like that LASS has true divisi and a dedicated 2nd violins. (It always bugged me that VSL didn't do a second violins patch.)
> Something else with VSL is that the sample player, Vienna Instruments Pro, is awesome. (I've been amazed to find that even the newly released Play version 6 doesn't let you create custom keyswitch schemes.)


You are right, there are no 2nd vlns, but in Mir you can positioning the 1st vlns on the left and the 2nd on the right with no phase issues without the trasposing trick and I have to say that I pretty like the sound with 2nd on


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## Nicola74 (Apr 16, 2018)

DoctorGuitar007 said:


> I love VSL. Mir-X was the breakthrough for me; up to then I was put off by it being a dry library as I didn't feel confident about all the reverb / panning / mixing needed to get a realistic sound. Mir-X turned VSL into an 'out of the box' library, but one where I still have the flexibility to turn off Mir and use the dry samples if I want a different effect.
> As others have suggested, I started with the Special Editions then upgraded to the Standard / Extended / Full versions of particular instruments as my needs developed. (Or when there was a sale on!)
> That said ... I switched to LASS for strings a year or so ago. Partly because my current project wants the "Hollywood" sound which I wasn't getting with VSL (which was down to me, not the library I'm sure. If I'd put the work in I probably could have got the sound from VSL, but LASS had it out of the box and was on sale and cheaper than getting the full version of VSL). Also though, I like that LASS has true divisi and a dedicated 2nd violins. (It always bugged me that VSL didn't do a second violins patch.)
> Something else with VSL is that the sample player, Vienna Instruments Pro, is awesome. (I've been amazed to find that even the newly released Play version 6 doesn't let you create custom keyswitch schemes.)


You are right, no 2nd vlns...but with Mir you can have them on the right with no phase issues or trasposition trick.
I have to say that I find the strings more balance in this way


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 16, 2018)

When you say there are no 2nd violins, is that with the SE version or Cube Standard, or both?

The VSL Instruments Pro player is a huge reason why I am interested in VSL honestly. From what I have seen it just opens up a lot of flexibility that is difficult or impossible in other libraries. 

So I have read around that SE is a nice starting point, but that the upgrade path is a bit weird in some way, vs just getting Cube standard. From what I can see, Special Edition complete is $1600 and Cube standard is $2100 (new). Doesn't seem like that much more to get Cube Standard...and I for one would appreciate more velocity layers...but aside from saving $500 what other advantage would there be to get SE instead of Cube Standard?


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## Nicola74 (Apr 16, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> When you say there are no 2nd violins, is that with the SE version or Cube Standard, or both?
> 
> The VSL Instruments Pro player is a huge reason why I am interested in VSL honestly. From what I have seen it just opens up a lot of flexibility that is difficult or impossible in other libraries.
> 
> So I have read around that SE is a nice starting point, but that the upgrade path is a bit weird in some way, vs just getting Cube standard. From what I can see, Special Edition complete is $1600 and Cube standard is $2100 (new). Doesn't seem like that much more to get Cube Standard...and I for one would appreciate more velocity layers...but aside from saving $500 what other advantage would there be to get SE instead of Cube Standard?


If I remember well only Orch. Strings full have 2nd vlns, but with much less articulations. No other VSL strings libraries have 2nd vlns, maybe Appassionata, but I am not sure...


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## DoctorGuitar007 (Apr 16, 2018)

Nicola74 said:


> You are right, no 2nd vlns...but with Mir you can have them on the right with no phase issues or trasposition trick.
> I have to say that I find the strings more balance in this way


True. Another reason that Mir-X was such a big deal for me was that it gave me 2nd violins. But LASS also gave me divisi, first chairs and a sound that was closer to what was in my head out of the box.


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## Nicola74 (Apr 16, 2018)

DoctorGuitar007 said:


> True. Another reason that Mir-X was such a big deal for me was that it gave me 2nd violins. But LASS also gave me divisi, first chairs and a sound that was closer to what was in my head out of the box.


Then LASS is perfect for you


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## novaburst (Apr 16, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> When you say there is a nice discount getting from the special edition to full can you please elaborate?



For example purchasing the special edition (the lighter version of the full or standard versions) when deciding to upgrade to the standard or full version only at VSL the price is calculated differently when the system sees you have already purchased the SE equivalent and gives you a discount based upon what you have purchased on the SE.

Its not a personal or private operation its the way VSL have set up system so its an automatic discount system based on what you have on the SE but it must be the same type of purchase so SE Orchestral Strings 1+2= a discounted standard or full version.

Hope this helps,


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 16, 2018)

I have read, however, that SE does not upgrade cleanly to the the bigger stuff...There is something about the upgrade path there that is not very good. There is no information that I can find whatsoever to let me know what it will end up costing me in the long run if I were to first buy SE and then later decide I want Cube.


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## Casiquire (Apr 16, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> I have read, however, that SE does not upgrade cleanly to the the bigger stuff...There is something about the upgrade path there that is not very good. There is no information that I can find whatsoever to let me know what it will end up costing me in the long run if I were to first buy SE and then later decide I want Cube.



I agree things are a little hard to find and kind of overwhelming. If you put items in your cart, you'll see your savings on other products. Helpful tip!

The Single Instrument upgrades are very good in my experience.


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## C-Wave (Apr 16, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> I have read, however, that SE does not upgrade cleanly to the the bigger stuff...There is something about the upgrade path there that is not very good. There is no information that I can find whatsoever to let me know what it will end up costing me in the long run if I were to first buy SE and then later decide I want Cube.


SE libraries do not upgrade to standard libraries as far as I know, but standard libraries upgrade to full libraries, because full lib. are simply extra articulations of the same libraries.


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## novaburst (Apr 17, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> were to first buy SE and then later decide I want Cube.



Go for the cube, I think I read some one advicing to purchase some viewing time, that's a good idea too.


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## Dietz (Apr 17, 2018)

Just to avoid confusion:

-> https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Instruments/Special_Editions#!Upgrade_Paths

HTH,

/Dietz


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## novaburst (Apr 17, 2018)

C-Wave said:


> SE libraries do not upgrade to standard libraries as far as I know, but standard libraries upgrade to full libraries, because full lib. are simply extra articulations of the same libraries.



I think upgrade is the wrong word to use, it depends what existing items you have, so when you purchase a new item you just get a discount, but I would not say upgrade. 

Anyway its getting confusing so lets stop


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## novaburst (Apr 17, 2018)

Dietz said:


> Just to avoid confusion:
> 
> -> https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Instruments/Special_Editions#!Upgrade_Paths
> 
> ...



This perhaps explains


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 17, 2018)

Going through the process of using the basket, from what I can see if I buy SE complete bundle now...then later decide I want Cube standard, the price is cut a few hundred bucks off the list price. Actually its cut by $462 as the discount, but VSL also charges a higher price when converted to dollars then if I buy the same stuff from Sweetwater...so it would actually only save $300 off the list price of Cube.

So the end result of starting with SE and later moving to Cube is considerably more expensive then going to Cube directly now, if that's where I think I want to end up eventually.

I'm still not really understanding the benefit of even considering SE at all. The SE complete bundle (through sweetwater) is $1600 and Cube is $2100. What does SE complete bundle have (at lower quality), the Cube doesn't have?


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 17, 2018)

In my mind, the SE product seems like VSL lite. I don't see the point of even buying VSL SE at all, but I would like to hear more. One benefit is that its only 111gb fully installed with all SE volumes. that makes it small enough to use on a laptop if that is interesting to you. 

Does the SE complete bundle have more articulations and instruments then Cube standard, albeit at a lower level of quality in some way?


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## DoctorGuitar007 (Apr 17, 2018)

A couple (well, four) possible reasons for starting with SE rather than going straight for the Cube. YMMV obviously:

1. Cost: I couldn't afford the Cube when I bought VSL all those years ago. I bought SE, and when I had the extra cash upgraded as and when. Probably more expensive in the long run, but ...

2. Needs:The first instruments I upgraded were flutes, oboes and horns, because they tend to be the featured instruments in the kind of music I write, so I wanted the extra articulations / velocity layers. However, I still to this day use the SE versions of the bassoons, contras, tubas and some others because in the music I write those instruments tend to function in a supporting way. I only need legato / sus and staccato articulations, and the extra velocity layers, etc. wouldn't be noticeable. So again it's cost, but also the SE instruments take up less memory and keep the size of my template under control. If I decide to write a tuba concerto I can always upgrade that instrument later.

3. Pick and Mix. I love VSL, but when deciding what libraries I wanted to use I preferred LASS for strings, EW Symphonic Choirs for voices plus some other non-VSL libraries I already owned and liked. Buying the Cube would have meant paying for VSL instruments I would never use.

4. Test Driving. After working with SE for a few months I found I was struggling to get the brass sounds I wanted for a particular project. VSL is very powerful and flexible and probably, if I'd upgraded to the full versions of the instruments and put the work in it could have delivered the sound I was after. However, EW Hollywood Brass gave me that sound out of the box (and was on sale so was cheaper than VSL). SE let me audition VSL instruments and decide what IMO their strengths and weaknesses are, and how they compare with other libaries. (And I have to say, regarding brass, if I was writing a more classically inspired / symphonic piece I'd probably go back to VSL. It's just for my current project I'm after the Hollywood sound which I found easier to get from Hollywood Brass. But SE let me learn when to use VSL, and when not.)

So, for me, if you can afford the Cube, and afford possibly to be paying for stuff you might not ever need (hundreds of bass clarinet articulations when you don't normally score for bass clarinet, preferring bassoons) or because you, for whatever reason use other libraries as well, go for it. If not, consider starting with SE and building your template oragnically over time.


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## Casiquire (Apr 17, 2018)

Of course the price is better the bigger the bundle you get all at the same time! No, I don't like that either, but I certainly felt that was to be expected. I think it's worth noting that getting the Full version of the Cube seems to give me a larger discount than my past spending with VSL actually warrants. So even here, the bigger bundle you upgrade to the more you're rewarded.

Personally I think I'll keep getting single instruments, which upgrade well and give you a lot of articulations, and full packages. I'm not sure I'll ever need the Cube.


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## Burningbusch (Apr 17, 2018)

From what I can tell, there's no difference between the SE and Standard versions of the same articulations. I own some SE as well as downloads (which are the standard version). When I look at equivalent sizes in VI Pro, they are identical. Articulations that can be found in SE, e.g. stacc, sustain, sfz, legato are identical in wave count and layers to the standard/download version, and they sound identical. Maybe there's a difference in bit size, don't know. As far as upgrades from SE to Standard, you do get some accommodation for your SE purchase. For example, Trumpet C Standard costs €50 with a €6 credit for SE. Considering Trumpet C is one of many instruments in SE 1, it's not unreasonable. It makes more sense though to upgrade via the SE plus where you get most of the Standard articulations and some Extended. I've compared the sizes of equivalent articulations between SE+ and my Standard/downloads and again, see zero difference in the wave count and layers.

It's difficult to compare the actual file size of Standard Cube vs. the same instruments via SE because the install size of Cube contains the complete, extended library.


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## Casiquire (Apr 18, 2018)

If I recall, Special Editions are whole tonne sampled versus collections which are half? I could be wrong!


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## Tfis (Apr 18, 2018)

You are right. Appassionata Strings are wt sampled, even in the full lib.


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## cadenzajon (Apr 18, 2018)

I thought SE instruments were minus one dynamic layer compared to the full lib as well, but perhaps the instruments are more similar than I thought if all the sizes match up in VI Pro.


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## Burningbusch (Apr 18, 2018)

I find it inconsistent, or maybe I'm simply confused. As I have both SE and downloaded versions of Woodwind II installed I can compare sizes in VI Pro. For example, Flute 1 stac shows a wave count of 120, three vel layers, two alternations and no release samples for both the SE and download. This does not translate to a chromatic sampling of the instrument. 41 notes of the flute are playable, which should equal a wave count of 246 (which is roughly twice what I'm seeing). It's the same throughout Woodwinds II download v. SE.

I also own full/extended Solo Violins which came boxed with CD. Now if I compare Violin stac between this version and SE, it's much larger 800 wave count vs. 156. They appear to be chromatically sampled. I also own Appassionata Strings Std/Ext and agree with the above comment that they appear to be whole-tone sampled and are much closer to the SE version for comparable articulations. But with stac, for example, you get tight and loose A/B switched with the Std.

If I look at my pricing for the Cube, it shows downloaded version of Woodwinds II as registered and $0 cost for Woodwind II in the Cube. Which means to me whatever I have should be exactly the same as the Cube Std.

I think what it may come down to is that there's no hard and fast rule about SE versions being inferior to Std for comparable articulations and there's no guarantee every Std version instrument is more deeply sampled.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 18, 2018)

Aside from lower price and smaller HDD footprint, is there ANY other advantage to SE over Cube?


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 18, 2018)

Here's another question, is the SE complete bundle basically all the same articulations as Cube Full, but lower quality in some way that nobody seems to know for sure how? IN other words, we can get SE complete bundle for roughly $1500 and Cube Full is more like $5000. So I'm assuming that would be more like the true comparison...complete set of articulations, one takes up half a terabyte, other takes up 111gb. So something is different. But is SE basically a way to get all the articulations, or most of them, that are in Cube Full, but at a much lower price...and in some way inferior sound that nobody seems to know for sure exactly how so?

Seems like Cube std would be a reduced set of articulations that must compare to say SE first couple of volumes only...


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 18, 2018)

@Dewdman42, I'll try to sum it up in simple terms.

The SE are the simpler, more affordable, less ressource hungry versions of the full instruments and collections that you get in the Cube. The samples are the same, so you can expect an identical basic sound. The difference is that the SEs have less articulations. Although SE & SE+ might actually be absolutely sufficient for many users, depending on their needs, because they include all the most needed articulations. There is however no way of having all the articulations from the full libraries in the SE products.

Personally, I can work with the SEs and achieve good results, but I do enjoy the additional content of the full libraries. It just adds to the expressiveness, variety, realism and faster workflow.

The SEs are sampled in whole tones, which obviously requires a lot less disk space. The full libraries are sampled chromatically. I personally do not hear a difference.
The SE patches have one to two fewer velocity layers. While the SEs perform fine in most situations, additional layers can make a difference, especially with short notes.

What makes it more confusing is the fact that there's Cube Standard and Extended. Standard generally has more articulations than the SEs, but less than Cube Extended. You do get the additional dynamic layers and chromatic sampling in both Cube Standard as well as Extended.

To sum it up, the contents of the Cube are in every case the superior, more in-depth and more expensive version of anything you get in the SEs. The combination of SE and SE+ though is also a fine, quite comprehensive setup in its own right.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 18, 2018)

Thank you for summarizing, especially the details about whole tone keymap and reduced velocity layers. Aside from that is all of the programming pretty much the same in terms of what you can do with Vienna Instrument Pro, etc? What about stuff like round robin and stuff like that?

Just to be clear the SE complete bundle includes Vol1, Vol1plus, Vol2, Vol2plus, Vol3, Vol4, for around $1500. I have no idea whether that complete bundle has significantly less articulations then Cube Full... Its kind of sounding more and more like that SE complete bundle basically has most all articulations and instruments you could want, just reduced fidelity due to whole tone mapping and less velocity layers. But I'd like to find out for sure if that is all. 

At the top level I can see the Vol3 includes Apassionata Strings, which is not included with Cube at all, right? So that is something SE has I guess that Cube does not. Does it have any other stuff that is beyond Cube Std or Full?

Aside from that, Its really hard for me to know if Cube Full would actually have more articulations then what is included with the above complete bundle. Probably not much. As you said, I might even get by just fine with just Vol1 and Vol1plus for less than $1k and welcome to the world of VSL. 

If the programming is essentially the same, but the difference is only the actual sound quality, then certainly SE could be a stepping stone towards Cube Full someday, even if that path in the long run would be more expensive doing it that way. I could also see a value to having a lite weight lib to load on my laptop, though in actuality I don't really need that.

I'm kind of tired of messing around with second best at this point though. $1500 for SE complete, vs $5000 for Cube Full is a big difference in price.


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## Burningbusch (Apr 18, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Here's another question, is the SE complete bundle basically all the same articulations as Cube Full, but lower quality in some way that nobody seems to know for sure how? IN other words, we can get SE complete bundle for roughly $1500 and Cube Full is more like $5000. So I'm assuming that would be more like the true comparison...complete set of articulations, one takes up half a terabyte, other takes up 111gb. So something is different. But is SE basically a way to get all the articulations, or most of them, that are in Cube Full, but at a much lower price...and in some way inferior sound that nobody seems to know for sure exactly how so?
> 
> Seems like Cube std would be a reduced set of articulations that must compare to say SE first couple of volumes only...



No, Cube Full has MANY more articulations. You get a rough equivalence to Cube Std articulations with the combination of SE and SE plus. SE plus gives you most of Std and a couple Extended articulations thrown in.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 18, 2018)

I don't see an SE or SE plus Edition. I see SE Vol1, SE Vol1Plus, SE Vol2, SE Vol2Plus, and also Vol3 and Vol4.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 18, 2018)

In Cube Full, what are all these "many more" articulations that are included? Are we walking about sampled crescendos and runs and stuff like that?


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## Burningbusch (Apr 18, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> In Cube Full, what are all these "many more" articulations that are included? Are we walking about sampled crescendos and runs and stuff like that?


With any of the libraries, you can find a listing. Look for the Sample Content link under the main graphic. Here's one for Woodwinds. https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Winds/Winds_Complete#!Sample_Content

You can contrast it with SE Vol 1 Plus Sample Content here:
https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Special_Edition_Complete_Bundle/Special_Edition_Vol1_plus#!Sample_Content


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 18, 2018)

Yea looking through all those pages is mind numbingly difficult to figure out what from what...its a lot easier to ask people with experience that can give a simple answer. Thanks though.


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## star.keys (Apr 18, 2018)

I'm probably missing something... What is the benefit in buying vsl orchestral strings vs. Synchron strings today? I have never owned vsl orchestral strings before, hence curious to know


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 18, 2018)

@Dewdman42 , you're right, the SE complete package does include many instruments that the Cube doesn't. But this is due to the fact that the Special Editions in fact are a streamlined, more affordable overview of the complete classic VSL range (not counting more recent products like Dimension, Synchron etc.). SE Complete is not the cheaper equivalent of the Cube. It's actually more a cheaper equivalent of the Vienna Super Package.

The Cube is a sort of complete orchestral collection. Hence the "symphonic" cube. That's also why it doesn't include instruments that aren't part of the standard symphonic arsenal (saxes, seven string electric guitar, Flugelhorn, etc.)


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## Burningbusch (Apr 18, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> The SEs are sampled in whole tones, which obviously requires a lot less disk space. The full libraries are sampled chromatically. I personally do not hear a difference.
> The SE patches have one to two fewer velocity layers. While the SEs perform fine in most situations, additional layers can make a difference, especially with short notes.


I don't want this to come off as argumentative, as I'm genuinely curious. If you look at my post above, I show an example of where the SE and download (download is supposedly the same as Cube) versions appear identical. If you own Cube and can make a similar comparison, to confirm/deny my observation, that would be great. My point is that while some of the Cube instruments appear to be more deeply sampled (chromatically sampled), that's not universal.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 18, 2018)

Hey @Burningbusch, I'll make a comparison of an instrument that I own in both versions - SE+ as well as the full "download" instrument. Let's use one of my favorites - the Basset Horn.

*SE+:*

Staccato
Portato
Sustain
Sforzato
Fortepiano
Legato
Legato Sus
Performance Repetition Staccato
Performance Repetition Legato
Fast Repetitions 150, 170, 190 bpm

This pattern is more or less true for all the instruments of SE1 and SE2 (there is no "+" in SE3 and SE4, so those instruments only have a basic articulation set).
There are minor differences - note that the basset horn does not have Trills. Some instruments do not have the fast repetitions. Others might have the one, but not the other one, or vice versa.

*Full instrument:*

Staccato
Portato Short
Portato Medium
Portato Long Soft Attack
Portato Long Hard Attack
Sustain
Legato
Legato Fast
Marcato
Marcato Fast
Sforzato
Sforzatissimo
Performance Repetition Staccato
Performance Repetition Portato
Performance Repetition Legato
Performance Trills
Flutter
Flutter Crescendo
Dynamics (switchable to crescendo and diminuendo): 1.5, 2, 3, 4 sec
Strong Dynamics (switchable to crescendo and diminuendo): 1.5, 2, 3, 4 sec
pfp Dynamics: 2, 3, 4, 6, 8 sec
Fast Repetitions: 120, 130, 140, 150, 160, 170, 180 bpm
Dynamic Fast Repetitions (switchable to crescendo and diminuendo): 120, 130, 140, 150, 160, 170, 180 bpm

That would be a pretty typical difference between an SE+ instrument and the full counterpart.


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## Burningbusch (Apr 18, 2018)

Yes, I agree Full has many more articulations. I think Dewdman42 is trying to get a handle on all this. 

My contention is that with at least some instruments, I'm not seeing more sampling complexity when comparing same articulations between SE/SE+ and Std Cube. That's what I'm hoping to have you confirm or deny.

Staying with the Bassett Horn, which I only have in SE, SE+ versions. I'm seeing:
Portato (short): Wave Count: 138; Layers: 3; Repetitions: 2; no release samples
Sustain: WC: 69; Layers: 3; Reps: 1; release samples
Staccato: WC: 138; Layers: 3; Reps: 2; no release samples
Sforzato: WC: 23; layers: 1; Reps: 1; no release samples
Legato: WC: 1102; Layers: 2; Reps 3; release samples


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## Count_Fuzzball (Apr 18, 2018)

"No, Cube Full has MANY more articulations. You get a rough equivalence to Cube Std articulations with the combination of SE and SE plus. SE plus gives you most of Std and a couple Extended articulations thrown in."

Heh, wasn't it VSL who had/has the policy of "Never pay for a sample twice."?

Good luck with that if you get SE Plus and later want the Cube Extended?!


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## Burningbusch (Apr 18, 2018)

Count_Fuzzball said:


> "No, Cube Full has MANY more articulations. You get a rough equivalence to Cube Std articulations with the combination of SE and SE plus. SE plus gives you most of Std and a couple Extended articulations thrown in."
> 
> Heh, wasn't it VSL who had/has the policy of "Never pay for a sample twice."?
> 
> Good luck with that if you get SE Plus and later want the Cube Extended?!


Very true. If you think extended is in your future, SE is not the way to go.


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## Casiquire (Apr 18, 2018)

Full often has more legato options, in solo strings they'll have non vibrato, etc. Often the articulations in Full are very, very useful.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 18, 2018)

Burningbusch said:


> Yes, I agree Full has many more articulations. I think Dewdman42 is trying to get a handle on all this.
> 
> My contention is that with at least some instruments, I'm not seeing more sampling complexity when comparing same articulations between SE/SE+ and Std Cube. That's what I'm hoping to have you confirm or deny.
> 
> ...



Depending on the instrument, the full versions will have one or two additional dynamic layers more compared to the SE versions. In the case of Basset Horn, its 4 velocity layers for stacc, 3 for portato, 4 for longs. The wave count is considerably highter (for example - staccato: 138 vs. 352, sustain: 69 vs. 352, sforzati: 23 vs. 44), supposedly due to chromatic sampling.


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## Burningbusch (Apr 18, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Depending on the instrument, the full versions will have one or two additional dynamic layers more compared to the SE versions. In the case of Basset Horn, its 4 velocity layers for stacc, 3 for portato, 4 for longs. The wave count is considerably highter (for example - staccato: 138 vs. 352, sustain: 69 vs. 352, sforzati: 23 vs. 44), supposedly due to chromatic sampling.



Thanks much for looking into this. Just checking, when you say Full version, you do mean Full and not Standard, correct? I only have the Standard version for my downloaded Woodwoods and with them, the counts are identical to the SE versions given the same articulation. So, that would mean the more detailed sampling comes with the Full versions, which is what I see with my Full version of the Solo Violins. The wave count for the Full Cube is considerable higher than Standard: 764, 093 vs. 199,730 (almost 4x).


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 18, 2018)

Burningbusch said:


> Thanks much for looking into this. Just checking, when you say Full version, you do mean Full and not Standard, correct? I only have the Standard version for my downloaded Woodwoods and with them, the counts are identical to the SE versions given the same articulation. So, that would mean the more detailed sampling comes with the Full versions, which is what I see with my Full version of the Solo Violins. The wave count for the Full Cube is considerable higher than Standard: 764, 093 vs. 199,730 (almost 4x).



Standard and Full should have the same number of dynamic layers. What you're describing reminds me of a different topic - please take a look at this thread on the VSL forums:
https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t48509-VSL-Woodwinds-SE1-or-standard#post270503

Could it have something to do with that?


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## ptram (Apr 19, 2018)

SE+ has more instruments than Cube. But if you are happy with what is in the Cube, and the price difference is minimal, I would say that Cube Standard is a better option. The upgrade path to the Full Instruments will be less expensive. Usually, Standard Instruments are a bit richer than SE+. You can then purchase additional the instruments (Standard or Full) you need.

Paolo


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## Burningbusch (Apr 19, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Standard and Full should have the same number of dynamic layers. What you're describing reminds me of a different topic - please take a look at this thread on the VSL forums:
> https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t48509-VSL-Woodwinds-SE1-or-standard#post270503
> 
> Could it have something to do with that?


Mystery solved. Thanks so much for the link. I'm a victim of some anomaly in the VSL System. The Cube DOES have the more sophisticated sampling throughout. Now an email to VSL to see if I can get this rectified. Thanks again.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 19, 2018)

Burningbusch said:


> Mystery solved. Thanks so much for the link. I'm a victim of some anomaly in the VSL System. The Cube DOES have the more sophisticated sampling throughout. Now an email to VSL to see if I can get this rectified. Thanks again.



Happy to help. Hope they can sort this out for you.


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## Casiquire (Apr 19, 2018)

Burningbusch said:


> Mystery solved. Thanks so much for the link. I'm a victim of some anomaly in the VSL System. The Cube DOES have the more sophisticated sampling throughout. Now an email to VSL to see if I can get this rectified. Thanks again.



More sophisticated than SE, but not than the full versions of single instruments or libraries. The standard versions of Single Instruments are also slightly slimmer than their Cube or individual library counterparts.

As far as I'm concerned, they should simplify a bit by making Single Instrument standard libraries identical to standard section libraries.


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