# Studio ergonomics?



## Jetzer (Jul 7, 2013)

Hi there,

I'm struggling a little bit finding the right position with my right arm. The problem is, there is a midi-keyboard between the desk and the chair, so my arm can't lean on anything. It can lean a little on my chair, but not that good. It will be in a weird angle. 

I have a trackball which solved earlier hand problems, but now it's the arm. I can move the trackball further away from me so my arm can rest on the desk, but that means I have to lean forward all the time. Not that comfortable for my back. 

Does any of you have any tips on how to tackle this problem?
How do you guys remain in a comfortable position while composing? I just can't seem to work out were to place my trackball, so my arm will be in a comfortable position.


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## muk (Jul 8, 2013)

The optimal seating position would be: sit comfortably and upright in your chair. Let your arms dangle freely by your side. Now lift your forearm so that your elbows are at a 90 degree angle. Ths is the height and position where your keyboard (not the midi, but the computer one) should be.
Also make sure that the mouse is relatively straght in front of you, not too much to the side. You'll probably have to use a keyboard without a numerical pad.
Your forearm should be free, but your wrists should rest on the desk.

But the main problem seems to be the midi-keyboard in front of the desk, which is not a good solution ergonomically. You could either have it fit in a drawer underneath your desk so you can easily stow it away for computer work. Or place it in a 90 degree angle to the side of your desk, so you simply turn to the side when playing something.


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## AlexRuger (Jul 8, 2013)

I've had tons of problems with studio ergonomics. I've had tendinosis for the past two years, and to curb it a bit I use the Kinesis Freestyle keyboard, split fairly wide, with the Evoluent vertical mouse in the middle. I hardly have any problems--that is, if you don't take the MIDI keyboard into account.

I have to have that pretty far away from me. It isn't a huge deal, but it causes enough strain for me to try to find a solution. As a trained pianist, having the controller as high as it is feels very weird.

Ideally, I'd find a nice, reliable, well-built, knobs-and-faders-free 88-key weighted keyboard (impossible to find, I know!), and have it down low/my chair up high, and then have a large enough space directly behind the keyboard (on top of it, where the knobs/faders usually are) to fit my Freestyle and a trackball (the vertical mouse is good but it totally wouldn't work in this situation). 

Or...

Build the controller into the desk and have the keyboard/trackball on the edge of the desk right above the controller, i.e. in the same position that they would be in the latter example, except on the desk instead of the controller.

And then have a separate fader/knob thing for when I need those.

After a long time of searching, I think this is the best possible setup to have the least strain possible. The key is finding the right controller.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 8, 2013)

Yes, the key is finding a controller keyboard that is shallow and thin enough to allow it to be mounted along the front edge of the desk without placing the keyboard and trackball too far away. This rules out just about every decent 88-key weighted action as these are usually six inches high and massively deep. The only solutions I've found that work, size-wise, are the M-Audio Keystation 88 (semi-weighted cheap keyboard that is now rebranded as an Alesis unit) and the Doepfer LMK keyboards. The M-Audio / Alesis unit is plastic feeling and cheap-n-cheerful ($300-ish) while the Doepfer uses nice Fatar weighted actions and can be disassembled and permanently built in to the desk, as shown in the picture attached.

I use the cheap-o Keystation 88 mainly because it is low (four inches high) and shallow and the surface above the keys forms a natural wrist rest between the music keys and the computer keyboard. I made a HUGE improvement in ergonomics by cutting a hole in the desk surface in order to recess the Kensington Expert Mouse so that it sits flush, with its back edge recessed down by an inch or two, eliminating the sloped angle that it normally sits at - this makes it look and feel like the way these trackballs are mounted in the SSL Duality and Euphonix MC-Pro and really helped my wrist.


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## snattack (Jul 8, 2013)

I've tried various seating positions, and I've found the single most important part is to have a chair with armrests. I rest my elbow on in so that I won't put any strain on the arm keeping it "in the air", and have it about 90 degrees.


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## Jetzer (Jul 8, 2013)

Thanks for the replies. 
I will see if I can make a drawer, so I can have the keyboard underneath my desk. I have a SL MkII 61 from Novation, should be do-able. 

Seems I'm not the only one struggling with ergonomics.


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## synergy543 (Jul 8, 2013)

This setup works nicely for me. I have the mouse lower down on the left side (I'm left-handed) where it feels more natural for my hand rather than up on the keyboard.


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## rgames (Jul 8, 2013)

How much of your time is spent actually playing the piano keyboard?

For me, it's not much, so the most ergonomic setup is the one that puts the piano keyboard over to one side. I have a third monitor over there that duplicates the project window. Wireless mouse and computer keyboard can be moved over to the space at the top of the piano keyboard. Takes about 3 seconds to turn 90 degrees and be ready to go in front of the piano keyboard.

Then I can swing back and have a standard (and much more comfortable) desk to work from for the other 95% of the time.

I tried for years to work with the keyboard in front of me and it just wasn't practical. It was, however, painful...! If you spend as little time as I do actually playing the piano keyboard then it's worth considering.

rgames


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 8, 2013)

Obligatory self-promotional link:

http://www.virtualinstrumentsmag.com/composersdesk/


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## synergy543 (Jul 8, 2013)

rgames @ Mon Jul 08 said:


> How much of your time is spent actually playing the piano keyboard?


A LOT :oops: . But not as much as I'd like (life gets in the way). I'm working hard to improve my keyboard skills as I find its essential to reach towards the goals I want to achieve. I've found that almost 100% of the composers I admire are/were great keyboard players such as Rach who you see in the photo. If you can't play like him (not that I do), how the hell are you ever going to write like that? Same for Scriabin, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, etc. Those are the guys I admire.


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## muk (Jul 9, 2013)

Go for the drawer, with your keyboard it should be possible.

@synergy543 luckily you don't have to play all the instruments you're writing for. Understanding them on a more basal level is enough. Mozart wrote a wonderful clarinet concerto without being able to play the clarinet. Schubert was not an accomplished pianist (he played okayish, but nowhere near a virtuoso), yet he wrote timeless piano music. Berlioz, Wagner, Mahler, and Schönberg were all no great keyboardists. 
But of course it can't hurt to learn to play the piano, it can help building a better understanding of harmony too.


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## Jetzer (Jul 9, 2013)

I originally had the keyboard on to the side, but I didn't like that, because I play the keyboard a lot. I'm going for the drawer  

Nice setup @synergy543, looks comfortable.


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## synergy543 (Jul 9, 2013)

muk @ Tue Jul 09 said:


> @synergy543 luckily you don't have to play all the instruments you're writing for. Understanding them on a more basal level is enough. Mozart wrote a wonderful clarinet concerto without being able to play the clarinet. Schubert was not an accomplished pianist (he played okayish, but nowhere near a virtuoso), yet he wrote timeless piano music. Berlioz, Wagner, Mahler, and Schönberg were all no great keyboardists....


Muk, I find that the more I learn about my instrument, the more it helps me to understand other instruments too. Its about learning performance and interpretation nuances and not just notes. And these concepts translate between various instruments. The more I learn, the less I realize I know, and the more hungry I become to learn more. Rimsky-Korasakov was considered a poor pianist among his peers. Feeling embarrassed, he practiced piano secretly on his own, playing Chopin Etudes and transcriptions. I'm sure he didn't feel that time was wasted nor hindered his orchestration skills. I think the standards in the past may be different from today, as I wonder how many composers today could play through the Chopin Etudes or write something similiar without being able to play them. Yeah, its not the "trend in vogue", and you're free to do what you want. Though, this topic was on ergonomics, not my personal choices and goals so I was just sharing the setup that I find to be very practical -and a hell of a lot cheaper than Charlieclouster's. :roll:


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## JFK (Jul 10, 2013)

piano side: My room size is limited so that extra footprint is a downside. 

(in order from the user) 
piano 1st, then computer + mouse: unless you have a slim keyboard and/or a desk-in type design, the buffer that the piano introduces makes it nearly impossible to use the keyboard and mouse comfortably. Dealbreaker for me

inversion of above: my current compromise, allows for ergomic typing and forearms length piano playing.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 10, 2013)

We've had this discussion before, but the answer is both: have the desktop slide over the keyboard so that you can type and play keyboard in the perfect position.


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## muk (Jul 12, 2013)

Agree with Nick that this might be the ideal setup. The drawback is that it's not exactly cheap.

Sorry synergy543, I didn't mean to offend you. I just wanted to say that it's not mandatory for composing to play the piano. But it can certainly help and is in no way a waste of time


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 12, 2013)

muk, the concept of a sliding desktop/fixed keyboard is independent of the desk I'm flogging! 

Before this one, I put together a desk out of Ultimate Support hardware, and the fixed bridge shelf (that speakers are on and the monitor arm is attached to) was a painted plank between two speaker stands. That was the proof of concept.

I'll see if I can find a picture...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 12, 2013)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h84m6hira7jch ... 76%201.JPG

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ttd3yejmgtee ... 79%201.JPG


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## muk (Jul 12, 2013)

Nick, that's extremely generous of you! Thanks for the pictures too. To me this concept is very convincing and it's great to have somebody who distributes such a desk. I certainly would love to have one (and hope at some point I will) as they are beautifully crafted as well


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## Dan Mott (Jul 12, 2013)

Yo synergy, nice setup.

I do have a question. What is the screen/picture frame, ect, sitting on?


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## Saxer (Jul 16, 2013)

i built myself a mouse pad arm rest. had a lot of back trouble and arm muscle tensions before. 
since i use my mouse pad chair (about four years now) every trouble is gone!


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