# Danny Elfman Masterclass



## Studio E




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## KallumS

!!!


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## d.healey

Just in time for Halloween. Glad I renewed my subscription!


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## Montisquirrel

If I remember correct, MasterClass has always a "Buy one, gift one" Black Friday Sale. Means, when you buy a 1 year subscribtion (around 200$ I think), you can get another account for free. So team up with a friend (or someone from VI Control), and get 50% off.

Not sure if it will happend again this year, but just remind you maybe not to buy the Danny Elfman single class but wait one more month and get all the classes.


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## Mornats

Oh damn, they went subscription? I was hoping to buy one Masterclass for $99 like they used to have.


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## Henu

I'm expecting no less than this.


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## ed buller

Mornats said:


> Oh damn, they went subscription? I was hoping to buy one Masterclass for $99 like they used to have.


you still can

e


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## jononotbono

Amazing! Thanks for sharing this! Will definitely watch it this weekend!


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## Mornats

ed buller said:


> you still can
> 
> e



Thanks for letting me know. I'll have to dig around more as I can only see the following:


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## ed buller

Mornats said:


> Thanks for letting me know. I'll have to dig around more as I can only see the following:



https://mstr.cl/2oAZGyc

click on this and just make sure you select this class only

e


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## synergy543

I think they changed the options. Before, I had an option for this single class for $90. Now, it only sucks...I mean its only subscription only. I really don't want to learn about seafood cooking and gymnastics also. Trick or Treat right? A bit dodgy if you ask me!


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## Nova

Click on the 


synergy543 said:


> I think they changed the options. Before, I had an option for this single class for $90. Now, it only sucks...I mean its only subscription only. I really don't want to learn about seafood cooking and gymnastics also. Trick or Treat right? A bit dodgy if you ask me!


Click on the link that Ed posted above. There's a button you can click that says 'Single Class'. When you click the button it pops up with a subscription but at the bottom there's some small text that says 'Continue with a single class'.


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## synergy543

Nova, I don't get that option when I click Ed's link.


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## Nova

synergy543 said:


> Nova, I don't get that option when I click Ed's link.



Weird. This is what I see when I click on the link. Have you signed in to the site before? Maybe try clearing your browser cache.


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## synergy543

Yeah, I signed up for the Zimmer interiews and when I sign in, they give me an option to upgrade for $90 to the one year pass. Its quite an incentive to just sign up for $19/mo and record the damn thing and watch at my leisure. Its weird that they would offer different options to different viewers.


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## Nova

synergy543 said:


> Yeah, I signed up for the Zimmer interiews and when I sign in, they give me an option to upgrade for $90 to the one year pass. Its quite an incentive to just sign up for $19/mo and record the damn thing and watch at my leisure. Its weird that they would offer different options to different viewers.



I would try using a different browser or clear the cache. I suspect they have a stored cookie that shows you as a subscriber and are not showing the single class. You might have to use a different email address to get the single class. Seems pretty absurd. Maybe they have a support email you could ask.


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## synergy543

After signing in and searching "Elfman", I did then get an option for the single class. Its quite hidden and clear they want you as a subscription customer for life.


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## chocobitz825

I love the part where he shits on everything this forum is about


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## Mike Fox

I'm in!!! The dude is the reason I'm a composer.


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## ProfoundSilence

chocobitz825 said:


> I love the part where he shits on everything this forum is about


because he has assistants that know all the fancy stuff the forum does

if all you had to do was a.) make a sketch on xyz notation or b.) mock up said notation or c.) mix/master a mockup 

your life would be easy


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## chocobitz825

ProfoundSilence said:


> because he has assistants that know all the fancy stuff the forum does
> 
> if all you had to do was a.) make a sketch on xyz notation or b.) mock up said notation or c.) mix/master a mockup
> 
> your life would be easy



no, the part where he says that virtual instruments will never suffice, and that creative people can find a way even with a limited budget/resources for real instruments.


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## ProfoundSilence

chocobitz825 said:


> no, the part where he says that virtual instruments will never suffice, and that creative people can find a way even with a limited budget/resources for real instruments.


*rolls eyes*

except nobody pays you, random composer 134,467 any attention unless you have $$. 

on a limited budget, you're vastly better off buying sample libraries to get gigs going. His entry into the industry is 99% irrelevant to today's climate. Him and Zimmer came from the pop industry, rather than working composers. 

so if you want to be a singer/songwriter to build a career to switch to orchestral work, by all means go decades out of your way. 

DJ/gleckmans advice is probably much more useful/relevant, barring they might be "smart" about what they say given they dont want to burn bridges with the old guard.

verta's advice about just going drinking in LA is probably going to beat out advice from someone as remarkably unconventional as elfman's entry into the field

edit: not to knock elfman, but he is completely disconnected from the reality the other 99.9% of this forum is going to deal with. Hes going to have useful information, but I wouldn't take his advice on getting your foot in the door.


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## KallumS

chocobitz825 said:


> no, the part where he says that virtual instruments will never suffice, and that creative people can find a way even with a limited budget/resources for real instruments.



I can see where he's coming from to a degree - instead of buying VIs you could spend that money on a violin, cello, viola and double bass and record those. But why would anyway do that when you could simply buy the packaged version?

If you wanted a real orchestra you could save up, but why would you when VIs are much cheaper and can be used for multiple projects?

Sure there are people that sample everything and don't use VSTs but that will give you that kind of sound, whereas you might want the kind of sound that only VIs can give you.

I think the best compromise is to use VIs for smaller projects and pay for an orchestra for bigger ones. You could use VIs to mockup the piece for the real orchestra, they don't have to be mutually exclusive. Perhaps you could mix VIs with the recording of the real orchestra, a la Hans Zimmer.


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## chocobitz825

Don’t kill the messenger. That was his point. That you’ll never get the warmth out of samples. He does his mockup with VIs but he calls out “75% of composers” who take the easy route by using VI in the final product. If I recall correctly he said that even on a small budget, you should be able to make something work with even fewer players if necessary. 

Yeah, could be a detached stance or just him not understanding the privilege given from his name and position. Though he could be right. Maybe better composers find a way and lose nothing from it.


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## Oliver

I had an Elfman masterclass in vienna two years ago and it was very inspiring. Very nice guy, very thoughtful, very good tips. we talked around 4 hours with him and i even get some nice photos with him.
so no need to book a videoclass with him 

I attented a Hans Zimmer masterclass last year in vienna, well...
i was not very happy, lets put it this way.
But Hans is a charming guy, and a real Hollywood star


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## Abdulrahman

Mornats said:


> Oh damn, they went subscription? I was hoping to buy one Masterclass for $99 like they used to have.


You can still do that. There is an option to buy a single class for $90


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## Mornats

Abdulrahman said:


> You can still do that. There is an option to buy a single class for $90



Some people are seeing that option and others aren't. I'm still trying to figure out a way of seeing it!


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## KallumS

Mornats said:


> Some people are seeing that option and others aren't. I'm still trying to figure out a way of seeing it!



What about trying a different browser?


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## Mornats

Ok, so on my mobile and my home PC I only get the £199 a year / £19.99 monthly with no option for a single class (see my screenshot above).

On my work PC I get the option of a single class for £85 but the monthly fee is £14.17 a month and is billed annually at £170 a year. No month-to-month option here. It's all a bit weird!


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## Jaap

Mornats said:


> Ok, so on my mobile and my home PC I only get the £199 a year / £19.99 monthly with no option for a single class (see my screenshot above).
> 
> On my work PC I get the option of a single class for £85 but the monthly fee is £14.17 a month and is billed annually at £170 a year. No month-to-month option here. It's all a bit weird!



Bit the same here, on my work pc I only have the option for the all access pass as the single class is greyed out, but after seeing your post I downloaded the app on my phone and I also get the option for a single class. Would love to see the monthly paying option, but maybe that's only for the US?
Very nice that Elfman is also now in the Masterclass, looking forward to it!


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## Mornats

Well, I browsed around a couple of the articles on their site and now my work PC (same one I took the screenshot a couple of posts up on) now shows this:






Something very dodgy is going on with their pricing. That pricing change was even in the same session in my browser.


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## Jaap

Time to continue browsing a bit more then


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## Mornats

It's back to £19.99 a month, paid monthly on my phone now. Half price for using Firefox! But seriously, wtf? This is the 4th different presentation of pricing I've seen since last night.


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## Abdulrahman

Mornats said:


> Some people are seeing that option and others aren't. I'm still trying to figure out a way of seeing it!


I'm not sure what you mean, but clearly the option is there whether you are browsing from a phone or PC.


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## Mornats

Abdulrahman said:


> I'm not sure what you mean, but clearly the option is there whether you are browsing from a phone or PC.



No, I got a different interface on my phone:





​
And I've got Chrome and Firefox open on my work PC at the same time showing two different monthly prices:






Maybe they're experimenting with different price points but it really puts me off!


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## Abdulrahman

Mornats said:


> No, I got a different interface on my phone:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I've got Chrome and Firefox open on my work PC at the same time showing two different monthly prices:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe they're experimenting with different price points but it really puts me off!


WTF is this?!! This is stupid!
I suppose they are showing different prices depending on your location? Maybe you are using a VPN on of your browsers so that's why the price is different? This is just me trying to figure out the problem. Because I have a fixed price for me on all my devices.


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## Mornats

Yeah, bizarre isn't it? I'm at work with some pretty tight security (financial services dev) so all of our browsers are managed so I would expect them to use the same proxy server. No VPN as far as I'm aware (I'm plugged in at my desk). I wonder if some A/B testing software is having a bad day?

All that aside, I'm interested in the subscription now as I'd love to dip into the HZ and Deadmaus classes too. £39.99 is too much, £19.99 is better but I wonder what I'll get if I try Internet Explorer :D


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## MauroPantin

I am interested in this class, but:

1- I might wait for Black Friday to see if there is a better deal to get it. And 

2- I'm a bit put off by the different pricings. Mine is showing $15/month billed annually ($180 a year), or the single class option, and nothing else. No option to pay for a single month. This is all a bit puzzling and in my opinion not transparent enough as a way to do business. Of course, they are free to A/B test all they want, but I think it reflects a bit negatively.


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## robgb

Henu said:


> I'm expecting no less than this.



Always interested in videos of people who aren't very funny trying hard to be.


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## robgb

Elfman does make a good point about the lack of warmth in samples, but my feeling is that there are ways you can make samples warmer—the way you play them, etc.—and that for low budget productions that require a big budget sound, samples are the way to go. 

I mean, really, he dismissed a good chunk of television composers when he said sampled scores don't work.


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## Land of Missing Parts

Seems to me that Elfman isn't putting down VIC, he's encouraging composers to push themselves to do better and not settle.

Try mocking up an Elfman song with samples. You'll quickly see what he means about the limitations of sample libraries.


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## DS_Joost

robgb said:


> Elfman does make a good point about the lack of warmth in samples, but my feeling is that there are ways you can make samples warmer—the way you play them, etc.—and that for low budget productions that require a big budget sound, samples are the way to go.
> 
> I mean, really, he dismissed a good chunk of television composers when he said sampled scores don't work.



Samples lack warmth and life, yes. The more I work with them, the more that part irritates me. This is the reason why I process the everliving **** out of them despite what everyone on this forum says.

''Process your samples as little as possible'' is the single most poisonous advice given on this forum despite the good intentions.

''Whatever it takes to make the bloody thing sound good'' is much better advice. Everyone should find their own way of doing this. 

It's the reason I adore Vangelis so much. Rarely uses a real orchestra. Plays all his stuff in his Enterprise like studio. Listen closely and you'll hear he plays his samples like a keyboardist because that's what he is. Not giving a damn about what anybody says you should do is one of life's greater blessings. Advice can be followed. It can also not be. Think for yourself, always.


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## robgb

DS_Joost said:


> ''Process your samples as little as possible'' is the single most poisonous advice given on this forum despite the good intentions.


I could be wrong, but this advice sounds as if it's coming from people who aren't big on mixing. I don't know about processing the everliving **** out of them, but EQ, saturation, compression, multi-band compression go a long way toward making your libraries sound great.

Let's face it, most of the developer demos we hear are expertly mixed with the appropriate processing. That's why so many users have problems duplicating the sound they heard in the demos.



DS_Joost said:


> Not giving a damn about what anybody says you should do is one of life's greater blessings. Advice can be followed. It can also not be. Think for yourself, always.



I've always said that if you're working with samples you do not have to stick to any orchestral "rules." Make them do things orchestral instruments CAN'T do. Innovate, don't imitate.


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## Mike Fox

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Seems to me that Elfman isn't putting down VIC, he's encouraging composers to push themselves to do better and not settle.
> 
> Try mocking up an Elfman song with samples. You'll quickly see what he means about the limitations of sample libraries.


Well said.

Btw, your Black Beauty mockup is fantastic!


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## bvaughn0402

Can anyone provide a review of this?

I'm tempted, but I find a lot of classes like this are more aggregate and "in the clouds"/motivational ... which are good, but not where my mind is at right now.


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## Tanuj Tiku

7 chapters in, its fantastic. Elfman is one of my heroes! 

Of course samples sound crap. No composer would prefer samples over amazing music recorded live. 

What he is talking about, is the top 1% of music in films. You can't mock up his scores. Same as you cannot mock up a John Williams track successfully. He is not dissing anyone.


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## MauroPantin

I think you could mock up a Piano rendition of happy birthday, post it here in the forum, and someone would come in and say it sounds "synthy" or whatever. This is a composer forum, filled with musicians with great ear and chops, and everybody here spends tons of hours listening for the uncanny valley stuff in the soundscape and trying to fix it.

Outside in the real world, the mockups a lot of talented people in here craft would EASILY pass muster for the common folk. Most of the time we're arguing about very tiny details that only the people in the craft notice.

Of course, if you have the budget, you record. It means absolute freedom in the artistic sense, it saves a lot of time wrestling with samples and MIDI CCs, and it is as real as it gets. It can never be replaced, but it's at a point where it is close enough to fool most people under certain conditions.


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## DerSiebteRabe

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Try mocking up an Elfman song with samples. You'll quickly see what he means about the limitations of sample libraries.



It _can _be done though. It depends on the sample library and the user.

This goes with what I was saying in that other thread about the BBC Orchestra and being burnt out: A great deal of orchestral sample libraries do not offer enough articulations and samples beyond "long" and "short". This is not necessarily because of an inherent inferiority of samples unto themselves, but because most of these companies are throwing all the budget at recording big-name orchestras, in big name halls, with big-name engineers, and run out of $ before they get around to sampling much beyond basics.

Plenty of recent soloist libraries and a handful of ensemble ones _do _go further though, and used in tandem, they can play a fairly extensive repertoire and still sound convincing. Provided that the MIDI orchestrator knows what he/she's doing, of course.

Really, the objective difference between a live musician and sampled musician is that the former provides you with an unlimited amount of different "samples" (provided you have limitless cash) and often greater homogeneity of the performance (most of the time), but unlimited cash cannot buy you unlimited samples in software format — if you don't have a sample of it, you can't truly "mock it up". Live players can give you any "sample" you want.

So while Elfman is definitely correct that live players are ideal and offer a number of advantages — be they in performance, time efficiency, "human-touch", etc. — it doesn't mean that writing the kinds of music he writes is too difficult to justify using samples to create, nor does it mean he isn't out of touch with the rabble.

But any of us among the peasantry expecting to find understanding among wealthy, Hollywood celebrities who make a living at something less than 1% of the population does or even can do, is looking in the wrong places to begin with.


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## Tanuj Tiku

DerSiebteRabe said:


> It _can _be done though. It depends on the sample library and the user.
> 
> This goes with what I was saying in that other thread about the BBC Orchestra and being burnt out: A great deal of orchestral sample libraries do not offer enough articulations and samples beyond "long" and "short". This is not necessarily because of an inherent inferiority of samples unto themselves, but because most of these companies are throwing all the budget at recording big-name orchestras, in big name halls, with big-name engineers, and run out of $ before they get around to sampling much beyond basics.
> 
> Plenty of recent soloist libraries and a handful of ensemble ones _do _go further though, and used in tandem, they can play a fairly extensive repertoire and still sound convincing. Provided that the MIDI orchestrator knows what he/she's doing, of course.
> 
> Really, the objective difference between a live musician and sampled musician is that the former provides you with an unlimited amount of different "samples" (provided you have limitless cash) and often greater homogeneity of the performance (most of the time), but unlimited cash cannot buy you unlimited samples in software format — if you don't have a sample of it, you can't truly "mock it up". Live players can give you any "sample" you want.
> 
> So while Elfman is definitely correct that live players are ideal and offer a number of advantages — be they in performance, time efficiency, "human-touch", etc. — it doesn't mean that writing the kinds of music he writes is too difficult to justify using samples to create, nor does it mean he isn't out of touch with the rabble.
> 
> But any of us among the peasantry expecting to find understanding among wealthy, Hollywood celebrities who make a living at something less than 1% of the population does or even can do, is looking in the wrong places to begin with.



No, you cannot mock up most of his scores. Pretty much like any other top composer who is writing even mildly complex orchestral music.

I mean you can, but it will sound terrible in comparison.

it’s nothing to do with rich people in Hollywood.

You won’t ask Pat Metheny to do his next album using Illya Efimov samples, will you?

A typical epic piece of music with constant fast motion, very less lyrical lines, burried in thick sounds and short flutters of brass work can be done.

However, when we speak of Danny Elfman or Thomas Newman, they are artists who deliver something deserving of the 1%.Not only is their music inventive, it is sophisticated, nuanced, complicated or simple but developed very much keeping a real orchestra in mind.They compose very differently in critical ways.


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## stigc56

robgb said:


> Elfman does make a good point about the lack of warmth in samples, but my feeling is that there are ways you can make samples warmer—the way you play them, etc.—and that for low budget productions that require a big budget sound, samples are the way to go.
> 
> I mean, really, he dismissed a good chunk of television composers when he said sampled scores don't work.


If you want warmth go south 
Always listen to people who search for the truth, stop listen when they think they found it.


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## Abdulrahman

Samples will never ever replace the power of a real orchestra. It will save you a lot of headaches to just pay for a real performance. You won't have to deal with dynamics, expressions, balancing and mixing.
The question is if you got hired, will they consider a budget for a real recording?
I remember I had a similar situation where the budget was extremely small to cover my cost and the recording. So I planned to record overdubs which help to cut the cost significantly and add realism to your tracks. The door to creative solutions is always open!


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## Mike Fox

Tanuj Tiku said:


> 7 chapters in, its fantastic. Elfman is one of my heroes!
> 
> Of course samples sound crap. No composer would prefer samples over amazing music recorded live.
> 
> What he is talking about, is the top 1% of music in films. You can't mock up his scores. Same as you cannot mock up a John Williams track successfully. He is not dissing anyone.


How long is the class? I'm definitely getting it, but will probably wait until BF.


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## robgb

Mike Fox said:


> How long is the class? I'm definitely getting it, but will probably wait until BF.


It's about two and a half, three hours long. You can listen to it in chunks if you prefer, and skip around.


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## stonzthro

Watched the whole thing - very good! The John Powell interview on Mix with the Masters is shorter but just as good.


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## InLight-Tone

ProfoundSilence said:


> *rolls eyes*
> 
> except nobody pays you, random composer 134,467 any attention unless you have $$.
> 
> on a limited budget, you're vastly better off buying sample libraries to get gigs going. His entry into the industry is 99% irrelevant to today's climate. Him and Zimmer came from the pop industry, rather than working composers.
> 
> so if you want to be a singer/songwriter to build a career to switch to orchestral work, by all means go decades out of your way.
> 
> DJ/gleckmans advice is probably much more useful/relevant, barring they might be "smart" about what they say given they dont want to burn bridges with the old guard.
> 
> verta's advice about just going drinking in LA is probably going to beat out advice from someone as remarkably unconventional as elfman's entry into the field
> 
> edit: not to knock elfman, but he is completely disconnected from the reality the other 99.9% of this forum is going to deal with. Hes going to have useful information, but I wouldn't take his advice on getting your foot in the door.


Vertas advice will net you a major drinking problem...


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## stigc56

Abdulrahman said:


> Samples will never ever replace the power of a real orchestra. It will save you a lot of headaches to just pay for a real performance. You won't have to deal with dynamics, expressions, balancing and mixing.
> The question is if you got hired, will they consider a budget for a real recording?
> I remember I had a similar situation where the budget was extremely small to cover my cost and the recording. So I planned to record overdubs which help to cut the cost significantly and add realism to your tracks. The door to creative solutions is always open!


I don't agree. Real musicians are not The Wiener Philharmonics! You will have all other kinds of problems if you record live musicians. So often I have been surprised how detailed instructions - in the score, and during performance - you have to give also very experienced musicians. So if you make comparisons between a really good mock-up and an average orchestra, you will maybe have more power, but often also all kind of other problems: Timing, tuning, dynamics. It's not that easy!


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## kitekrazy

robgb said:


> Elfman does make a good point about the lack of warmth in samples, but my feeling is that there are ways you can make samples warmer—the way you play them, etc.—and that for low budget productions that require a big budget sound, samples are the way to go.
> 
> I mean, really, he dismissed a good chunk of television composers when he said sampled scores don't work.



He writes for the movies with big budget and of course they are going to use a live orchestra.


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## kitekrazy

MauroPantin said:


> I think you could mock up a Piano rendition of happy birthday, post it here in the forum, and someone would come in and say it sounds "synthy" or whatever. This is a composer forum, filled with musicians with great ear and chops, and everybody here spends tons of hours listening for the uncanny valley stuff in the soundscape and trying to fix it.
> 
> *Outside in the real world*, the mockups a lot of talented people in here craft *would EASILY pass muster for the common folk*. Most of the time we're arguing about very tiny details that only the people in the craft notice.
> 
> Of course, if you have the budget, you record. It means absolute freedom in the artistic sense, it saves a lot of time wrestling with samples and MIDI CCs, and it is as real as it gets. It can never be replaced, but it's at a point where it is close enough to fool most people under certain conditions.



If some understood this there it would remove the endless youtube videos with the topic of "why today's music sucks". They need to get over it and realize those who are buying the downloads and subscriptions are "stoopid music listeners".

I'm always cautious of spending this kind of money on a video (I want the Van Buuren one). I got deals on MPV and Groove3 where I'm paying about $20 a month for both and is one 90$ class really going to worth it.


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## rgames

Are samples preferred over the best live orchestras? Probably not. Are samples preferred over a mediocre/bad live orchestra? Probably.

If you don't have much money and you want an orchestral sound you're probably better off with samples.

Regarding the value of the class, I'd say temper your expectations. These kinds of things tend to be interesting but not really informative. I've watched a bunch of the Masterclass series and I've not gotten anything that's of tremendous value. But they're interesting insights into the minds of the instructors.

So think of them less as a class and more as an extended interview or documentary.

rgames


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## ed buller

stonzthro said:


> Watched the whole thing - very good! The John Powell interview on Mix with the Masters is shorter but just as good.



I'd like to watch that...Is there a way of just buying that or do you have to become a pro-member first ?

best

e


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## DerSiebteRabe

Tanuj Tiku said:


> No, you cannot mock up most of his scores. Pretty much like any other top composer who is writing even mildly complex orchestral music.



No, you absolutely can and it doesn't have to sound "terrible" by comparison. I'm sorry, but this is a cope.



Tanuj Tiku said:


> it’s nothing to do with rich people in Hollywood.



No, it has a lot to do with rich people in Hollywood.



Tanuj Tiku said:


> A typical epic piece of music with constant fast motion, very less lyrical lines, burried in thick sounds and short flutters of brass work can be done.
> 
> However, when we speak of Danny Elfman or Thomas Newman, they are artists who deliver something deserving of the 1%.Not only is their music inventive, it is sophisticated, nuanced, complicated or simple but developed very much keeping a real orchestra in mind.They compose very differently in critical ways.



While I have nothing against them, you really are over-playing the "sophistication" of their music.

If you have recordings of all the types of articulations, ornaments/mordents, etc. that you need to mock up a given phrase, then it is possible to make a mock up which will sound good and probably fool the majority of the audience.

The question really isn't about how "good" or "real" samples _can_ sound, it's more about what we _ought _to place value on. We _ought _to value human performances over machines'.

However, the reality is, most people watching Elfman's course (at least where the orchestra is concerned) will never get to have their music played by a full ensemble in a hall or scoring stage. At best, most will be able to hire one or two live players to overdub the samples.

I'm friends with a number of professional film composers, I've studied with and learned from them, kinda worked as an assistant etc. and I know guys who've scored successful films for 30 years, won awards, make-a-living at this etc. and have _never_ recorded a live orchestra.

So no, Danny Eflman's advice here is out-of-touch. Using samples is totally valid.

As a final note, and some might see this as nihilistic though that's not how I see it: I don't really think it matters in most movies and video games if the music is live or not. The effects are fake, the stories are so often cookie-cutter, the characters are fake, the backgrounds are fake, the creatures are fake, the sets are fake, and so on — but _the music has to be real_? How many enduring films and games from the 80s and 90s using synths or primitive samplers disprove that? At the end of the time, most of these things are just consumer products meant to provide an evening's entertainment to make more Hollywood suits even richer.

The only reason I would ever shell out money for live players on these types of projects (but it's very rare you'll ever be given a budget today) is for _my own_ artistic satisfaction and to save myself all that time spent in front a screen creating mockups


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## robgb

kitekrazy said:


> I'm paying about $20 a month for both and is one 90$ class really going to worth it.


You can join Masterclass for $20 a month. I joined for one month, plan to watch the hell out of it and quit.


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## Mike Fox

rgames said:


> Regarding the value of the class, I'd say temper your expectations. These kinds of things tend to be interesting but not really informative. I've watched a bunch of the Masterclass series and I've not gotten anything that's of tremendous value. But they're interesting insights into the minds of the instructors.
> 
> So think of them less as a class and more as an extended interview or documentary.
> 
> rgames


Absolutely. I actually thought that was a given. One of the first things Elfman says in the promo video is, "I'm gonna tell you from MY perspective how I do these things".


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## Land of Missing Parts

DerSiebteRabe said:


> It _can _be done though. It depends on the sample library and the user.


That's nice. Can you please share your Elfman mockup then?


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## robgb

Land of Missing Parts said:


> That's nice. Can you please share your Elfman mockup then?


Actually there's a VSL promo video on YouTube where Elfman shares one of his own mockups (for the main theme of Alice in Wonderland). So I guess it CAN be done.


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## Land of Missing Parts

robgb said:


> So I guess it CAN be done.


To my ears, the Alice in Wonderland VSL mockup really _illustrates_ the limitations of samples. And I'm not against samples; I use them every day.


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## DerSiebteRabe

Land of Missing Parts said:


> To my ears, the Alice in Wonderland VSL mockup really _illustrates_ the limitations of samples. And I'm not against samples; I use them every day.



No, because I haven't mocked up Elfman's music mainly because I have no reason too and don't care.

However, I can direct you to some examples of more-skilled MIDI orchestrators than I who write music in the same kind of classic style that people like Elfman are known for.







There is absolutely no way that these would not be approved in the film world, and I don't suspect you'll find any average person who'd listen to these, especially the latter examples, and be bothered by the fact that it's virtual — if they could tell at all. As I said, you are really only limited by whatever it is that you _don't_ have samples of.

So the idea that samples — which are just recordings of performances, really — have something about them which is so limiting that music like Danny Elfman's (or that Elfman's music in particular is special in this regard) should not or cannot be effectively realized with samples, is simply nonsense.

Whether it's "as good" to your ears or not is beside the point and allows for a considerable amount of subjectivity.


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## Land of Missing Parts

DerSiebteRabe said:


> I haven't mocked up Elfman's music mainly because I have no reason too and don't care.


I see. Maybe one day you will decide to care and pay closer attention.

I notice you just joined VIC a few days ago. Welcome @DerSiebteRabe


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## merlinhimself

For anyone who did the Zimmer one, how did you feel about it


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## DerSiebteRabe

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I see. Maybe one day you will decide to care and pay closer attention.
> 
> I notice you just joined VIC a few days ago. Welcome @DerSiebteRabe



Thanks man. Seems like a cool place for music stuff.

People told me forums were a dead format


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## Emmanuel Rousseau

I'm sorry but I really don't get this "you can't mockup his scores" thing. A mockup is a mockup, and the real thing is the real thing. So what ? In that case, are there anybody's scores out there you CAN mockup ?


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## Tanuj Tiku

DerSiebteRabe said:


> No, you absolutely can and it doesn't have to sound "terrible" by comparison. I'm sorry, but this is a cope.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it has a lot to do with rich people in Hollywood.
> 
> 
> 
> While I have nothing against them, you really are over-playing the "sophistication" of their music.
> 
> If you have recordings of all the types of articulations, ornaments/mordents, etc. that you need to mock up a given phrase, then it is possible to make a mock up which will sound good and probably fool the majority of the audience.
> 
> The question really isn't about how "good" or "real" samples _can_ sound, it's more about what we _ought _to place value on. We _ought _to value human performances over machines'.
> 
> However, the reality is, most people watching Elfman's course (at least where the orchestra is concerned) will never get to have their music played by a full ensemble in a hall or scoring stage. At best, most will be able to hire one or two live players to overdub the samples.
> 
> I'm friends with a number of professional film composers, I've studied with and learned from them, kinda worked as an assistant etc. and I know guys who've scored successful films for 30 years, won awards, make-a-living at this etc. and have _never_ recorded a live orchestra.
> 
> So no, Danny Eflman's advice here is out-of-touch. Using samples is totally valid.
> 
> As a final note, and some might see this as nihilistic though that's not how I see it: I don't really think it matters in most movies and video games if the music is live or not. The effects are fake, the stories are so often cookie-cutter, the characters are fake, the backgrounds are fake, the creatures are fake, the sets are fake, and so on — but _the music has to be real_? How many enduring films and games from the 80s and 90s using synths or primitive samplers disprove that? At the end of the time, most of these things are just consumer products meant to provide an evening's entertainment to make more Hollywood suits even richer.
> 
> The only reason I would ever shell out money for live players on these types of projects (but it's very rare you'll ever be given a budget today) is for _my own_ artistic satisfaction and to save myself all that time spent in front a screen creating mockups



Pretty much disagree with everything you have said here.

You have had a long and illustrious career and know lots of other people. But it is often not very expensive to hire musicians and even small ensembles. I don’t know which part of the world you live in but access to small ensembles is not very expensive.

I think for about a few thousand euros, you can get musicians in Budapest.

Also to your point about using synths - of course that’s absolutely fine. But the discussion is about writing orchestral music for a film that needs it and working with live musicians, instead of mocking it up. Specially, a film which decidedly needs proper orchestral music.

I too have done an animation film, entirely mocked up. But I still had a budget to hire a 20-piece choir and 12 string players to layer the whole thing in Mumbai, recorded at a scoring stage.

Both the filmmakers and I felt that the musicians brought something very valuable in a very tangible way to the project. The producer had worked for many years with Satyajit Ray and he understood the valuable process of composing and recording music.

In any case, a world where we only use mock ups for creating music, would be sad. I use samples everyday. People often hire me because they want the big sound. Both because they want that writing but also many times because they do not have the budget.

But, I believe very firmly, that musicians bring a whole lot to the table. Samples are decent at some things but wholly incapable of creating proper orchestral music. You simply cannot express fully, orchestral music, without using an actual orchestra. You can compose it with samples but most often, specially if the music is very expressive and complicated, it will sound horrendous in comparison.

This is why you cannot mock up successfully any film score from any of the Maestros. The fact that they had access to real orchestras, is intrinsically and irreversibly linked to the final result. 

I believe, this whole thing is usually a cost cutting effort, not a creative choice.

And so, I fight hard on nearly every project to get budgets so we can hire musicians. There is not a single project I have done, in my career, where the filmmakers were not happy with the decision to hire musicians in the end.

And we can totally disagree on the point that samples can replace live music. They cannot. I have nothing more to add to that.


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## DerSiebteRabe

Tanuj Tiku said:


> Pretty much disagree with everything you have said here.
> 
> You have had a long and illustrious career and know lots of other people. But it is often not very expensive to hire musicians and even small ensembles. I don’t know which part of the world you live in but access to small ensembles is not very expensive.
> 
> I think for about a few thousand euros, you can get musicians in Budapest.



"A few thousands Euros" isn't cheap. Especially when most people on these forums will be lucky to ever make a "few thousands Euros" from their music at all.



> Both the filmmakers and I felt that the musicians brought something very valuable in a very tangible way to the project. The producer had worked for many years with Satyajit Ray and he understood the valuable process of composing and recording music.
> 
> In any case, a world where we only use mock ups for creating music, would be sad. I use samples everyday. People often hire me because they want the big sound. Both because they want that writing but also many times because they do not have the budget.



This whole part is a strawman



> This is why you cannot mock up successfully any film score from any of the Maestros.



You absolutely can.



I'm sorry, but this idea that "it's not doable", which is the entire thing I'm arguing against, is just wrong. So I'm not going to even address it anymore.



Tanuj Tiku said:


> And so, I fight hard on nearly every project to get budgets so we can hire musicians. There is not a single project I have done, in my career, where the filmmakers were not happy with the decision to hire musicians in the end.
> 
> And we can totally disagree on the point that samples can replace live music. They cannot. I have nothing more to add to that.



And once again, I know composers who've gone 30 years, won awards and all of that, and have never recorded a live orchestra. At best, they've dubbed over soloist performances from time to time.

If you are able to get live musicians, then that's great.

If you can't and you wind up only using samples and maybe the odd live addition, that is also fine.


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## Tanuj Tiku

DerSiebteRabe said:


> "A few thousands Euros" isn't cheap. Especially when most people on these forums will be lucky to ever make a "few thousands Euros" from their music at all.
> 
> 
> 
> This whole part is a strawman
> 
> 
> 
> You absolutely can.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but this idea that "it's not doable", which is the entire thing I'm arguing against, is just wrong. So I'm not going to even address it anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> And once again, I know composers who've gone 30 years, won awards and all of that, and have never recorded a live orchestra. At best, they've dubbed over soloist performances from time to time.
> 
> If you are able to get live musicians, then that's great.
> 
> If you can't and you wind up only using samples and maybe the odd live addition, that is also fine.




No problems at all! We will disagree on everything in that case.

I don't think you are understanding what I have been trying to put across. Yes, it is OK to use samples. Yes, I too, know many composers who have not worked with live musicians.

What I do not understand, is your lack of understanding of the basic premise here. Nobody will score the next Disney animation with samples. We are not discussing, independent movies or low budget animation. Yes, there are budget issues there, as I myself explained to you with my own experience on an animation project. Interestingly, me speaking about my experience, in my career gets a 'strawman' comment but your experience, is OK!

And all of that has nothing to do with being rich. Danny Elfman does not put in his own money. He worked to the top of the game from working in a band. He mentions it, ever so clearly that budget is not the issue, even for him. He has worked on many films with less budget and in that case he won't use an orchestra. He will simply go another route. That is artistic integrity.

Yes, you won't probably get that working at the start of your career but you work up to it. You aspire, you have a vision. Nobody is saying that samples are intrinsically bad. All I am saying is that for the TOP level productions, you will not use samples. Period.

Danny Elfman is inspiring and has already inspired a generation of composers around the world, to imagine and to further the art form. He is not dissing people who use samples. He uses them himself.

What is so hard about getting this?

Also, can you please share a better and complete example? Most of that video is running in demo mode and the initial comparison is too short and snippy of a very short passage. The demos mode, later in the video, clearly speaks DEMO to me.

Anyway, since we fundamentally disagree on the matter, perhaps it is better we let the topic carry on without our further intrusions. I think, we have both said what we would like to and simply disagree. But, that is OK!

PS: No need to share more examples. Sorry, I seem to have missed your earlier post, where you shared three videos. They are very skilled indeed but scream samples to me in most passages. Sorry, but that is not close to live, not to my ears. Can an audience can tell the difference? I think, most won't care but a good chunk of people will definitely 'feel' something better with a real performance in the long run. 

Anyway, carry on!


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## galactic orange

I don’t comment much on this forum, but I try to pay attention. I am of the opinion that the quality of the composition supersedes the quality of the samples. I’m from the gamer generation, raised on 8-bit games, 16-bit games... those themes stick with you. Some of those themes and motifs are phenomenal. You don’t forget them. It doesn’t matter that it came from a Yamaha chip in a game system or whatever. The same can be said for something like Batman score. Mindblowing. Trendsetting. I know that to me it just “fits” the feeling of the movie. Batman finale. Couldn’t be better.

Yeah, we want our scores to impart the tone that we feel as composers. And of course, having the orchestra at our disposal is a huge asset. If all we have is VIs then we should do our best. 30 years ago composers for games worked with less.

I really don’t like the term “mockup”. I realize this is just semantics. But I don’t like the term mockups. Are you making music or not? If what you conceived isn’t good enough with today’s samples then it wasn’t good enough in the first place. Plenty of examples of kick-ass music I can provide you with that aren’t played by an actual “orchestra.” Yes, orchestras are ideal. No, I can’t afford one so I’ll do the best I can.

Danny Elfman is the coolest. And so is Nobuo Uematsu. The fact that the latter composed music for games doesn’t make his music any less powerful. The number of game music fans prove it.


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## Tanuj Tiku

ed buller said:


> I'd like to watch that...Is there a way of just buying that or do you have to become a pro-member first ?
> 
> best
> 
> e



No, you will have to buy the pro membership. The John Powell masterclass is excellent. It is very on point and I think he structured it all really well, showing just one sequence, instead of just talking about most things. I felt that it was a fantastic way to spend 90 minutes of my time. 

I hope that you will find it interesting and inspiring as well.


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## KallumS

merlinhimself said:


> For anyone who did the Zimmer one, how did you feel about it



I enjoyed it, didn't feel like I learned a whole lot though. Be warned: Hans doesn't really get technical, he talks more about ideas and emotions.


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## stigc56

merlinhimself said:


> For anyone who did the Zimmer one, how did you feel about it


I was disappointed, but kind of expected to be! I think this whole "industri" around the craft of composing assisted by a DAW is kind of cheating their audience.
The guest is sitting in a first class studio, the camera zooms to all the old fantastic synths, the lights are fantastic and they talk and talk - many of them with these fancy "taking" hands, the latest wonder in communication.
And they go on for hours so tell the obvious, that you have to communicate with the director, that you are not the artist, that you have to be able to change direction very fast, and in all means submit the turbulent creative process.
But they don't show or talk about all the decisions composing a piece of music ALSO consist of AFTER the inspiration has arrived!
The only one that I have watched that actually opens up to how he is doing his job is Guy Michelmore who actually compose to rolling camera. He is no Zimmer or Elfman but he's approach to the job is to me the most inspiring. And he also has some subtle takes on how Zimmer is approaching the directors, which kind of illustrate how things works in this and many other industries.


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## Mattia Chiappa

Here's a particularly successful mockup of a Danny Elfman's piece in my opinion. Of course it would be unfair to compare it to the original recording but realism aside, by no means this lacks expressivity and or character which are also important factors. Imagine having your piece played by a shitty orchestra. it would be an invaluable experience and sound real but no so good at the same time.


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## Land of Missing Parts

whitewasteland said:


> I'm sorry but I really don't get this "you can't mockup his scores" thing. A mockup is a mockup, and the real thing is the real thing. So what ? In that case, are there anybody's scores out there you CAN mockup ?


Well-put. I will stop speaking universally and just speak to my own experience on this. When I use samples I feel the limitations, and it makes me want to push myself, try harder, listen closer. The more I learn, the more I see things that need to be done better. This is all I am saying.

I never listen back to something I wrote and think "Nailed it! Sounds as good as a real orchestra." Never.


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## Sovereign

Two points. Elfman is not unmockupable (is that a word? ). Second, reading this thread I still don't have a clue if this course is actually worthwhile. Anyone take it yet?


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## wst3

I purchased a couple of classes when they first started - Hans Zimmer and Aaron Sorkin. Both were outstanding. Hans is providing guidance at least one layer up from what I expected, but I found it both interesting and valuable. What it lacked in mechanics (how to get this sound, how to write a melody, etc) it more than made up for when it came to approaching a project, and writing to the story.

Mr. Sorkin's class was even better (and I'm not a writer). Ok, maybe I like it because I am not a writer?

I've toyed with the subscription or maybe just purchasing a couple other classes, specifically Herbie Hancock, Carlos Santana, and Tom Morello. And as I am involved in theatre, a number of the writing and acting workshops are also interesting, or could be.

Along comes Danny Elfman... I think I very well may get the subscription after the holidays and binge on musicians. They really do have a fantastic spectrum of presenters.


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## Land of Missing Parts

Sovereign said:


> Two points. Elfman is not unmockupable (is that a word? ). Second, reading this thread I still don't have a clue if this course is actually worthwhile. Anyone take it yet?


_Love_ your Spiderman mockup.




__





Spiderman (Elfman) mockup


Hi everyone, Stuyding Elfman's score of Spiderman 1/2 I tested a couple of bars just to see if I could get it close enough. Unintentionally, this morphed into a complete mockup of the whole thing. It's one of my favorite Elfman scores, I hope you enjoy the result as much as I do. Tried to get...




vi-control.net





And @whitewasteland 's Goosebumps





Danny Elfman "Goosebumps" Mockup !


Hello everyone, I'd like to present you my latest mockup : "Goosebumps", by Danny Elfman (2015). This was transcribed by ear, programmed, mixed and mastered by yours truly :) And here is the original piece, mixed by Dennis Sands at Fox Studios : All feedback is appreciated :) Thank you...




vi-control.net







Regarding the masterclass--If the price is ~$90, I'll probably instead opt to buy the Batman Returns Full Orchestral Score from Omni Music Publishing for that price.

I've recently been spending time with the original Batman score from Omni and getting a lot out of it. If the price is closer to $20, I'll check out the video though.


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## jneebz

rgames said:


> Are samples preferred over the best live orchestras? Probably not. Are samples preferred over a mediocre/bad live orchestra? Probably.
> 
> If you don't have much money and you want an orchestral sound you're probably better off with samples.
> 
> Regarding the value of the class, I'd say temper your expectations. These kinds of things tend to be interesting but not really informative. I've watched a bunch of the Masterclass series and I've not gotten anything that's of tremendous value. But they're interesting insights into the minds of the instructors.
> 
> So think of them less as a class and more as an extended interview or documentary.
> 
> rgames


Well said, I couldn’t agree more. “Masterclass” is the wrong description for these.


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## KallumS

Sovereign said:


> Two points. Elfman is not unmockupable (is that a word? ). Second, reading this thread I still don't have a clue if this course is actually worthwhile. Anyone take it yet?


I'm on the 4th video and have learned a few things - definitely worth it for the £19.99 monthly fee. Not sure yet if it's worth the £99 perpetual cost.


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## jononotbono

Tanuj Tiku said:


> No, you will have to buy the pro membership. The John Powell masterclass is excellent. It is very on point and I think he structured it all really well, showing just one sequence, instead of just talking about most things. I felt that it was a fantastic way to spend 90 minutes of my time.
> 
> I hope that you will find it interesting and inspiring as well.



John Powell Masterclass? Where is that then? On Masterclass.com? Amazing if so!


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## Tanuj Tiku

jononotbono said:


> John Powell Masterclass? Where is that then? On Masterclass.com? Amazing if so!



It is on Mix with the Masters.


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## jononotbono

Tanuj Tiku said:


> It is on Mix with the Masters.



Ahh really! That’s amazing! Have to check that out! Thanks!


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## NoamL

whitewasteland said:


> I'm sorry but I really don't get this "you can't mockup his scores" thing. A mockup is a mockup, and the real thing is the real thing. So what ? In that case, are there anybody's scores out there you CAN mockup ?



I agree. There's two things that would make a piece of music difficult to mockup:

1. The composer is using lots of completely original sounds created by synthesis, or extended/novel instrument techniques, or unique custommade/altered acoustic instruments, or passing recordings through highly custom audio processing. Some examples that immediately spring to mind are Thomas Newman, Johann Johannsson, Hildur Guðnadóttir, Mick Gordon, and somewhat Hans Zimmer. Some of the scores by these composers are quite difficult to imitate much less replicate because you would have to rebuild their instrumental/sound palette from the ground up.

2. The composer is giving the orchestra a true workout and pushing his music far beyond the "legatos and shorts" / "copy regions" paradigm of sampling. This not only risks exposing all the flaws in samples, no matter how good your samples are, but it also just creates more sheer work to perform a sample-based copy of the music as every measure is unique. Any composer who comes from conservatory training or a classical orientation such as John Williams, John Powell, Patrick Doyle, Henry Jackman, Alexandre Desplat (I don't mean to offend anyone by omissions - this list could go on for a while) often writes this sort of music, and this also includes an enormous amount of the music from composers of the "classical canon".


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## NoamL

Also I'll throw this into the ring  this is from ages ago! 2014ish? That might be EastWest Hollywood Brass, VERY dodgy :dodgy:

The cue is "Hydrobot Attack" from Elfman's _Terminator Salvation_ score.


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## Mike Fox

I've never done a mockup. How do you guys do it? By ear? By sheet music? Both?

What do you guys recommend for a first Elfman mockup? I was thinking Tales from the Crypt.


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## NoamL

Both. There are various places to get scores legally but of course not all cues are published so that's where transcription comes in. But mocking up a piece from a score is much more educational, you get to see what instructions & guidance the composer decided to put in their score.

The overture (& suite?) from DE's Spider-Man scores is published, you might try that! @Sovereign did a nice mockup of it here - https://vi-control.net/community/threads/spiderman-elfman-mockup.81122/


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## Mattia Chiappa

@Mike Fox If you never transcribed an orchestral piece before I would recommend starting with something simple that you can get the score, so you can check how you did. I would start with the opening of Batman, full score available at Omni Publishing https://omnimusicpublishing.com/product/danny-elfman-batman-full-orchestral-score/


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## KallumS

One thing that struck me while watching the Masterclass is that Danny mentioned that a small movie music budget is $10 million and under. Yes, he advocates for using an orchestra at all times, but of course you would go with this at that price point.

Personally I wouldn't feel bad about providing a score made from sample libraries for films with a budget of a few hundred to a few thousand $s.


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## KallumS

ka00 said:


> I haven’t gotten to that part yet. Do you think he meant the “small movie” itself had a $10M or under budget?




I'll have to watch the part again but from memory his wording was something along the lines of "if a movie has a small budget, which is a budget of $10 million or less"


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## Greg

Great class! Just be aware that its more like an interview / lecture. Not any daw or composing action like Junkie xl does. I wish they would go that route but I understand that it would be a lot more involved and probably more expensive. 

I still think there is a big market for that hands on content. I would pay a lot more to be able to see over his shoulder while making mockups and exploring ideas for 12 hours. Mix with the Masters does that with the mixing guys like Alan Meyerson. Most of their stuff is screem sharing and hands on mixing.


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## David Kudell

Danny's class really hit me hard as an inspiration - that's partly because of where I am in my life and career, at kind of a crossroads. At times when he was speaking about his skillset (playing by ear, not being classically trained, etc) I felt like it could be me he's describing. 20 years after writing music for student films in college, lamenting the fact that I didn't keep it up, instead pursing a job as a sound editor in LA.

For those of you who are already getting paid gigs as a composer, it's probably less inspirational and lacking some of the practical stuff you see in JunkieXL's vids. But for someone like me, this class really spoke to me and has inspired me to get out there and find some stuff to score so that maybe someone other than my wife can hear my stuff.


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