# What do you use to draw your midi Ccs?



## Pixelee (Jan 24, 2016)

What do you use to draw your midi Ccs? 

I just use my g600 mouse to draw it. Instead of clicking, I use the side button pushed by my thumb so I feel more precise. How about you? What do you use? I'm thinking of ways to speed up my work flow.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 24, 2016)

I just hold down the mouse button. I don't click on the pencil tool manually - I have the selection tool active and use Cubase's hold-ALT-function to switch to pencil tool when I need to draw something. I also have grid on/off on a hotkey and turn off the grid for CC lines to be able draw freely. Couldn't figure out anything more practical so far. I was thinking of getting a drawing tablet like digital artists use for drawing and painting in Photoshop etc., but then I figured it would actually slow me down and annoy me because of constantly having to put down the mouse and reach for the pencil and vice versa.


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## d.healey (Jan 24, 2016)

Mod wheel, expression pedal, and mouse


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## scarred bunny (Jan 24, 2016)

Just click-and-draw with the mouse, typically. I also just use the alt-key modifier for drawing in Cubase - I never switch tools unless I absolutely need to. So slow. Key modifiers is where it's at. I use my mouse's side buttons to enable/disable snap-to-grid and auto-select controllers, and misc. key commands to show/hide various CC lane configurations and switch between midi parts. 

I do have a graphics tablet. I don't like it as a full mouse replacement, but when you're actually drawing it's pretty neat. But like Jimmy says, switching back and forth is awkward, so much of the time it's faster to just use the mouse - but sometimes I'll reach for the tablet if I have a lot of drawing to do. Been using it more and more lately actually, both for drawing notes and CC curves. It's an ongoing experiment - not totally sold yet, but it shows potential. 

Sometimes I just record in CCs as midi overdubs (modwheel, sliders, breath controller), right into the key editor. Whatever gets the result faster.


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## tomaslobosk (Jan 24, 2016)

I ride my faders and knobs, so much easier and natural IMHO.


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## eqcollector (Jan 24, 2016)

I use Wacom graphic tablet. Found it really really useful when drawing midi lines. It really changes the thing completely, especially if you're on tight deadline.


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## Pixelee (Jan 24, 2016)

Thank you for the feedback! Maybe I should try knobs or simply stick to mouse. It's probably the gear lust that's kicking in.


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## Maestro1972 (Jan 24, 2016)

eqcollector said:


> I use Wacom graphic tablet. Found it really really useful when drawing midi lines. It really changes the thing completely, especially if you're on tight deadline.


Thanks EQ...just added this to my "wish list"

I use a combination of i-pad (OSC), knobs and faders to do the initial input then go back and fine tune the CC with drawing tool (mouse).


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 24, 2016)

What bothers me a bit is that I can't seem to be able to record anything useful as MIDI overdub with a modwheel. I just can't do it.  I use the modwheel all the time when I actually play parts on the keyboard and record them, but overdubbing CC data via modwheel _without_ playing the line itself - it just doesn't work, I end up doing total nonsense. I somehow can't separate the two, which sucks because overdubbing MIDI would often make things go really quick.


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## Kas (Jan 24, 2016)

My midi controller is a 1996 Korg Trinity with a ribbon controller which i find really useful to control, then small nitpicks with mouse.


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## Maestro1972 (Jan 24, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> What bothers me a bit is that I can't seem to be able to record anything useful as MIDI overdub with a modwheel. I just can't do it.  I use the modwheel all the time when I actually play parts on the keyboard and record them, but overdubbing CC data via modwheel _without_ playing the line itself - it just doesn't work, I end up doing total nonsense. I somehow can't separate the two, which sucks because overdubbing MIDI would often make things go really quick.



You're not alone. There is a disconnect when I overdub as well.


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## jononotbono (Jan 24, 2016)

Since buying a JLCooper Fadermaster Pro I could never go back to drawing in CC data with a mouse etc. It's an incredible fader controller and if you keep your eye on Ebay, you can grab yourself a lucky bargain from time to time. It is so accurate and the Long Throw Faders are 100mm in length. Just awesome.


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## muk (Jan 25, 2016)

TEC Breath controller. It's way quicker and feels more natural to me than drawing curves manually. For corrections I simply use the mouse.


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## jononotbono (Jan 25, 2016)

I haven't bought a breath controller yet. When you're writing for hours on end, how does it feel constantly blowing through it? I guess what I am asking is... Can you set it up so you don't have to blow a lot of pressure until your head explodes?

Mike Verta showed quite a cool tip by setting it to only apply vibrato so you don't have to constantly blow whilst writing and do Expression with Modwheel (or whatever else one may use).

Jono


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## muk (Jan 25, 2016)

It comes with a valve to regulate the airflow, and you can configure the sensitivity to taste. I have the valve slightly open, somewhat similar to an oboe. A bit of air goes through, but not too much. Works fine for me. If I were to use it for hours on end I'd probably open the valve a bit more and adjust the sensitivity so that it needs less pressure to reach 127. In any event, both hardware (valve) and software (sensitivity) are configurable.


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## jononotbono (Jan 25, 2016)

Yeah, I'm gonna get one.


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## rdieters (Jan 25, 2016)

I also use a TEC breath controller. It's way more intuitive and faster than drawing CCs by hand. 

BTW I saw this the other day, looks interesting.

http://www.kvraudio.com/news/tecontrol-releases-usb-midi-breath-and-bite-controller-2-32335


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## MA-Simon (Jan 25, 2016)

Would love to use my Wacom Tablet, but it's too big. I have to get a smaller one eventually.


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## CorgiKing (Jan 30, 2016)

I'm going to try this Wacom tablet for Midi CC and automation drawing as it sounds right up my alley...and could benefit my hand/wrist stress injury issues. Any recommendations on which one to get? There are so many models!


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## AlexRuger (Jan 30, 2016)

Just keyboard and mouse for me, and if I play in something in real time, I always go back and edit it, make it as clean as possible. I've tried other control surfaces but they just slow me down.


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## matv (Feb 2, 2016)

I like to use touchOSC.


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## Michael W. Bell (Feb 5, 2016)

I use the Korg NANOKONTROL2-BK 8, would highly recommend it, really great build quality for the price. I need to work on some more mappings though, I've currently only mapped Volume (C7), Modulation (C1), Expression (C11) and Hold (C64).

What do you guys use for sustain? I'm looking to add a pedal, but note sure if I can get away with just assigning another CC to the Korg.


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## Ethos (Feb 12, 2016)

I use the faders on my Avid Artist Control to automate CC1, CC11, and other CCs (like ones that control legato speed, etc...) on each track. Which is a magical thing. I love being able to control those performance controls on motorized faders.


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## ag75 (Feb 12, 2016)

The faderport is nice for midi CC as well.


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## muk (Feb 13, 2016)

How did you set the faderport up to control midi cc? I asked on the presonus forum if they could adjust the driver to support controlling midi cc, but there was no interest on their side. Some time back I found a solution how it could be done using Cubase's QuickControl. But it seemed tedious and not very reliable, so I refrained from buying a faderport.


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## Markus Kohlprath (Feb 13, 2016)

I use the apple trackpad to fastest settings which is very accurate and fast and recently added an apple mouse which I only use for clicking and riding faders in cubase with the other hand. So clicking with one hand and drawing with the other on the pad works very smooth and relaxed. To switch to pencil tool and back I have a key command directly beneath the mouse and do not have to move my hand. This is as fast as clicking alt tab if you are used to. For fader riding I couldn't find anything better than the i pad with customized lemur faders. This is the only thing that works without any issues all the time and I tried nanokorg, faderport and whatever else. Winds I do with the tec control. But everything has to be practiced like an instrument as you all know probably.


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## jononotbono (Feb 13, 2016)

Not that I own one but I wonder if the Apple iPencil/Crayon (can't remember it's name) will be a great tool for drawing in Automation? Always thought it would be interesting to use such a device for this purpose...


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## K8ch (Mar 1, 2016)

I've been considering wireless motion controllers.
Both are under $100: the "Hot Hands 3" and "the "Leap Motion" controller.

I hate drawing CC's w/my mouse and don't like taking time to painstakingly to draw or create a vibrato, with a fader (granted, I only have access to a Korg Nanoconroller, or the wheel/slider on a synth).

These looks like a MUCH easier and fluid way to record MIDI CC overdubs, to add realism.

(I may opt for the "Hot Hands" because, although it does less, I would guess that it's less drain on the CPU.)

I would =LOVE= to hear peoples opinions/experiences about this topic/these products.



Peace,

K8ch


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## clisma (Mar 1, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Not that I own one but I wonder if the Apple iPencil/Crayon (can't remember it's name) will be a great tool for drawing in Automation? Always thought it would be interesting to use such a device for this purpose...


I just started using this method with my iPad Pro and Logc, using an app called AstroPad. Works remarkably well when connected via cable to the computer. Wifi is possible but has slightly more latency, enough to notice. I try to use the pencil for CC drawing, moving/copying of regions, item selection, etc. I'm working on improving usefulness, but so far what it does, it does well. I'm not sold on this method being a lot better than the trackpad with multi-gestures, but the pen does seem a bit more precise than my finger.


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## Przemek K. (Mar 1, 2016)

Well, mostly I use my mouse...yeah I know, its maybe abit old fashioned but more precise if I want to get into details. But
when recording live I use the steinberg QC controller, which is quite handy especially in conjunction with its PD controller.
Although I'm toying with the idea of using a tablet for controlling some features in cubase. Maybe a combination of both.


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## Jacob Cadmus (Mar 1, 2016)

Modwheel and mouse for me. I do an equal amount of recording and drawing. Also, I've rerouted all my sustains' CC11 expression to the modwheel so that I'm triggering crossfades and expression at the same time. I know it's lazy, but I'm just that two-birds-one-stone kind of person.


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## Jaap (Mar 1, 2016)

Maestro1972 said:


> You're not alone. There is a disconnect when I overdub as well.



Weee! Good to know I am not alone. Exactly the same here.
I prefer recording the cc data when I play. Often I just record the playing again, remove the notes from the second/third etc recording (unless they are better) and add/merge the cc data. I wish I could do it with a mouse, but my hand is solid and steady, but completely fucks up when drawing cc curves... (odd stuff)


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## GP_Hawk (Mar 3, 2016)

I've been enjoying writing automation on a 42" multi touch screen using dtouch software as an overlay for cubase. Also you can build any kind of macro you want (scripting done with python) but dtouch comes with a library of macros you can build on.
So far I have a macro to copy cc1 to cc11 and a macro to copy cc1 and paste to any other cc control anywhere you would like if that's what's needed. 
Really fast though drawing in automation with your finger on a zoomed in track on a 42" touch screen.


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## bc3po (Mar 9, 2016)

Peavy 1600x and JL Cooper Fader Master


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## K8ch (Mar 29, 2016)

Hi,

I just picked up a "Hot Hands" MIDI controller ($99), and it is fabulous. Very responsive, and no latency (as far as I can tell). Great for adding a realistic, vibrato. Also really nice for "riding" the volume of a track (for automation), and pitch bends (which always seem to need to be tweaked). Great to be able to do it in real time, and much easier to use than a mod wheel or a fader.
And setup took about 3 minutes Real simple.


Peace,

Keith


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## trumpoz (Mar 29, 2016)

TEC Breath Controller (learning to use an Akai EWI atm) for expression-based data and mouse for everything else.


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## milesito (Mar 29, 2016)

Have been using the korg nanokontrol 2 for a while but my new behringer bcf2000 arrives Saturday! I wanted 10mm length faders to have more intricate cc levels drawn in.


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## dgburns (Mar 29, 2016)

wow,surprised to see no one mention iPad/lemur.While real faders is nice,lemur is so flexible it's silly.


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## afterlight82 (Mar 29, 2016)

fadermaster pro (used to be peavey pc1600x but I like the longer "throw")
and then the parabola tool in Cubase (works better than straight line drawing for 99% of applications involving samples). I could never get it as smooth with the lemur as I can the fadermaster, but I love the lemur for lots else.


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## Smikes77 (Mar 29, 2016)

dgburns said:


> wow,surprised to see no one mention iPad/lemur.While real faders is nice,lemur is so flexible it's silly.



Ipad/lemur use here.


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## dgburns (Mar 29, 2016)

afterlight82 said:


> fadermaster pro (used to be peavey pc1600x but I like the longer "throw")
> and then the parabola tool in Cubase (works better than straight line drawing for 99% of applications involving samples). I could never get it as smooth with the lemur as I can the fadermaster, but I love the lemur for lots else.



huh,that's weird cause my lemurs draw the nicest smoothest curves.Also,if my fingers get sticky I pull out the pen and it works wonders too.

Edit-just realized I set up some physics function on the faders,so there is some smoothness being created by lemur.It wouldn't be so if the physics aspects of lemur were not being exploited.


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## afterlight82 (Mar 29, 2016)

That's probably true - I never experimented with that, but I just got so used to the haptic feedback from the fader that I found it difficult to adjust. What I really want is a bank of faders that the Neve 88RS uses...so smooth...adapted for midi. But I doubt that'll happen.

Now eventually I wish we'd just be on OSC and ditch midi entirely...for everything including networked timecode, and with an analog fader that converted to OSC high resolution. Then you could scale anything to anything...


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## Mark Stothard (Mar 29, 2016)

dgburns said:


> wow,surprised to see no one mention iPad/lemur.While real faders is nice,lemur is so flexible it's silly.



I use lemur too but struggle a little getting smooth cc data with it. What project within it would you recommend using?


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## dgburns (Mar 30, 2016)

Mark Stothard said:


> I use lemur too but struggle a little getting smooth cc data with it. What project within it would you recommend using?



Well,for me,I just rolled my own.I simple fader template is pretty easy to make,and you can setup how many you want and have them control what you want.You could go nuts and make fader banks for all your heavily used things too.Size,physics,colour,everything is adjustable,and if you learn to script,you can do some funky things.(like more then one parameter per fader etc etc)
When I get a little downtime,I'm gonna create some synth controllers that use NRPN's to control the parameters.A little more advanced,but imho,a need.
Lemur/ipad is crazy powerful in the right hands.

checkout "midimockup's" excellent fader bank if you want a quick start.He created a fader bank that you can define the midi cc's on the fly.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 30, 2016)

ag75 said:


> The faderport is nice for midi CC as well.




I don't believe it will do that.


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## Mark Stothard (Mar 30, 2016)

Thanks very much dgburns, ill try that.


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## Andrew Goodwin (Mar 31, 2016)

Great thread guys. I have some new things to try now. 

*There should be a list of gadgets or ways to controller and enter midi CC data with links to the products or how to videos.(Since it's always changing and so many are unaware of the options)*

also ordered a leap motion for $27 to try. and found this hilarious review of the hot hands midi controller


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## Pietro (Mar 31, 2016)

I tried Leap Motion for a while and it didn't work for me. The biggest issue was the lack of physical feedback. So you never know exactly where to position your hand to get specific value (or at least minimum, midium and maximum). It felt ok and fun for a while. I thought I would get used to it, but I returned to modwheel.

Another problem was finding a reasonable place for it on the desk. However I would place it, I would always accidentally send some random values while moving my hand towards the keyboard. Either that, or it was too far to reach comfortably.

I wish there was a separate controller that basically is multiple mod wheels next to each other. If it was motorized (and quiet), I'd be completely set.

- Piotr


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## Jaap (Apr 1, 2016)

Just bought an Leap Motion controller based on some videos Chris Hein posted in another topic and tbh I am sold! Haven't used it for much more then cc1, cc11 and some vibrato control, but for me it feels very natural and even when doing overdubs I get smoother results. Maybe it helps that I am left handed and I play always with my right hand so the balance and feeling is a good combi for me.
Placement of the thing is indeed a bit fiddling around, but if I lay it on my upper left leg it responds well and also not too much a burden for my arm.


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## MacTomBie (Apr 2, 2016)

I use a trackball (Logitech Trackball M570) and it's awesome. I switched from using a mouse many years back and I can't imagine going back to a mouse. The switch was sort of painful (as far as I remember) because initially it's very awkward, but after a few weeks after you made the transition it's just great. I use it for everything, not just drawing CCs.


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## markd (Apr 2, 2016)

I use DAWOSC (an android app I wrote a few years ago) on my tablet while I'm recording MIDI parts. Then I always use a mouse to clean up the data and make fade-ins and fade-outs better. It's a little tedious to go over everything with a mouse afterwards, but it does make things sound much better in the long run.


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## higgs (May 17, 2016)

I've been looking into the pen tablet displays like the http://smile.amazon.com/Ugee-Digital-Display-Original-Chargers/dp/B00WJHOKQ2/ref=sr_1_2?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1463511408&sr=1-2&keywords=pen+display+tablet (Ugee 1910B) or the UG-2150 as an option for my side monitor. The pen tablet idea seems really promising. Does anyone here have experience with those?


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## CDNmusic (May 17, 2016)

I have an old iPad running Duet and it works wonderfully. It is my 3rd monitor and I drag the midi editor to it whenever I want to draw CC data. I use my finger and the input is lag free, smooth and very detailed, allowing to draw lines much better than using a mouse, much better.


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## higgs (May 17, 2016)

CDNmusic said:


> I have an old iPad running Duet and it works wonderfully. It is my 3rd monitor and I drag the midi editor to it whenever I want to draw CC data. I use my finger and the input is lag free, smooth and very detailed, allowing to draw lines much better than using a mouse, much better.


Duet was really laggy for me even with the Air2 and Cylinder. I tried it out a few times but found it a bit too distracting and frustrating. It's shame too because the application would be perfect.


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## jacobthestupendous (May 17, 2016)

Does anyone have/use Apple's Magic Trackpad 2? It's enormous, and it seems like it might be an interesting stand-in for a Wacom or similar.


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## elpedro (May 17, 2016)

just use mod wheel and am waiting for my leap motion to arrive.but i never think for one moment i will get away from the mouse fully,sweating over every note is still inevitable...


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## Ashermusic (May 18, 2016)

On the iPad Yamaha Faders and Pads. Works fine, but I still miss real faders.


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## K8ch (May 26, 2016)

Faders are nice, but I can't do a convincing vibrato with just the right nuances, with a fader.
Which is the "Hot Hands" midi controller is so perfect.

Just my 2 cents.
Keep the change 

Peace,
K8ch


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## Near Decision (Jun 2, 2016)

Over the past few years, I went from an Apple Magic Mouse, to an Expert trackball mouse, and finally found something close to nirvana in using a Wacom tablet.

For those curious, and those that asked about using a tablet (@higgs , @CorgiKing), I'll share my own experience in hopes that it'll be of some help:

I use a *Wacom Intuos Pro Medium* tablet. Using the pen for both writing (MIDI notes) and for manual CC/automation drawing feels refreshingly natural to me (and above all, _fast_!), almost as if I were doing it on real paper. I can quickly put in rough, broad curves in one pass, or I can be extremely precise in a very small area without too much need for zooming in.

Keep in mind that like anything else, you will need time to adjust and "learn" to use the pen before you become efficient with it. I found it took me a solid week to become comfortable with it, but totally worth it!

I can't really speak to how it would affect wrist stress/injuries. All I can say is that like with my trackball, I can use the pen for much longer than I could a normal mouse before feeling fatigued.

There's a couple of other things I would really keep in mind if you're really interested:

*1) (double)-clicking is much more awkward with the pen*

Clicking with the pen is like shooting paintballs; often a two-shot burst will have the balls either end up very close, or one will veer off just enough to miss the target.

Trying to do multiple consecutive clicks (or taps) with at least some level of precision sometimes results in one of them being interpreted as a click-and-drag movement, or is only registered as a single click. I'll say it again: using a pen for this kind of work will take some time to get used to, but clicking has been especially tough. _You can_ tweak the pen's press settings, and it does help, but only a little for me. I still keep my trackball beside the tablet for those sorts of occasions.

*2) Don't immediately go for the biggest (or the smallest).*

I can't stress this enough, especially since it impacts the amount and size of hand movements you'll be doing.

Side note related to wrist comfort: a small portion of my Intuos tablet's working surface is actually not active/usable, and intended for you to lay your wrist on so as not to interfere with the pen/gesture detection. _This is just straightforward good thinking, and I love this_.​
For screen resolutions of 1920x1080 to 2560x1440, my tablet size is a happy "medium" that gives me a comfortable working area, and a great level of precision in translation of my pen movements on the screen.

The Small version of my same tablet would be far too small of an active area on a 1440p screen -- small movements would still translate to "larger" strokes on the screen, and make the cursor seem more "jumpy". Likewise, the Large version would basically require me to do a lot of bigger hand movements just to work on a tiny section of CC data.

I have no hands-on experience with a 4K display, but my gut inclination would be to step up to the Large version with that kind of screen real estate.

You can of course customize the acceleration and boundaries to get your desired precision comfort zone, but if you go too small or too big, that either leaves you with not enough area on the tablet at all (eg. on the Small), or it will leave significant portions of the tablet unused and waste space (Large).

Hopefully all that helps you with your decision. But with all that said, this is my experience; I'm not you; your needs/circumstances may very well be different from mine. 

So, as we like to say about MIDI keyboards, speakers, monitors, etc....

*TRY ONE IN A STORE. *

/ J


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