# Fellow Americans (and anyone else who wants to chime in)... Immigration



## RiffWraith (Nov 21, 2014)

I was wondering how the rest of you feel about what Obama has done here, with regards to immigration.

He says the system is broken and needs to be fixed. I am not really sure what the process is... is it really broken? 

He says Congress wont act. Who knows how accurate that is... there is so much that goes on behind the scenes that we never hear about.

People say it's ok for him to do this, b/c other Presidents (Dem and Rep) have done this as well. Well, that's not exactly true.

Personally. I actually like the ideas he has put forth. I do not however, like the way he has gone about doing this. For him to come out on several occasions and say, "I can not bypass congress as I do not have the legal authority to do so" - and then for him to say "I can bypass congress as I have the legal authority to do so" is just ridiculous. I am all for immigration reform (assuming we actually need reform), but to do it this way is pathetic - and scary. I hope that the GOP wins the suit they have filed - not b/c I want all of those people deported, but I wouldn't mind seeing a message sent to Pres Obama (and any future Pres) that basically says "you can't do that."

Thoughts?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 21, 2014)

The humanitarian side is the most important one, first of all. Too many people seem to forget that.

Anyway...they explained your last paragraph on MSNBC pretty convincingly yesterday morning: he was answering a different specific question. I forget what it was, but it sounded credible to me, not just the usual political spin.

It also seems like a side show, really, because it's not the important point even if he did change his mind.

And it's 100% true that Congress won't act - on this or anything else! That's because of the Republican party. Have I mentioned that I don't like them?

Meanwhile everyone seems to think illegal immigration is costing us so much. I just got through posting this on Facebook:

So many people believe these illegal (therefore criminal?!) immigrants are costing us a fortune, taking away American jobs, and we can't afford them.

But think about it. If they're working for 1¢ per piece of fruit - and they are - how much does that take away from anyone? Deporting every illegal immigrant in the country wouldn't help our economy in the least.

So why aren't the same people so opposed to these scary monsters taking our jobs away focused on what actually would create more jobs here? Enforcing a minimum wage, a lower dollar to reduce the trade deficit, government spending on infrastructure....I can probably think of others.

Oh, and how about eliminating the farm subsidies that put Mexican farmers out of business and force them to come here and stand in line at Home Depot.


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## AC986 (Nov 21, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Fri Nov 21 said:


> I was wondering how the rest of you feel about what Obama has done here, with regards to immigration.
> 
> 
> Thoughts?



He looks like he's doing this out of spite.

What people always start talking about when it comes to people coming into a country that have absolutely no input into it, no previous stake in its growth or survival during times of conflict, do not ask or let alone care what the indigenous people of the country they are about to infest feel about it, the talk inevitably veers to economics and jobs.

Well here's a newsflash. Nobody really gives a ratsass about that. It's much more simple than that. It's about protecting their culture.

Your President just turned into a communist. You have 2 more years if this guy. Let's hope he calms down or someone will wind up shooting him based on your previous history.


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## chimuelo (Nov 21, 2014)

Disgusted by these people who serve America on a dime being taken advantage of by 2 Crime Families who's only concern is fundraising on a Crisis they felt needed to be created.

As far as executive action, it's symbolistic as usual with wealthy Liberals.
If they really wanted to help these hard working families they had ZERO resistance in 2008-2010.
They showed their hand back then, a little late for a re shuffling of the deck.


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## JonFairhurst (Nov 21, 2014)

In 2008-10, the top priority was healthcare reform. It's not that immigration reform wasn't a high priority; it's that healthcare reform was a higher priority. Between that and an economy that was coming off the rails, there wasn't enough fuel in the tank to do immigration reform at the same time. You can't pass challenging legislation without total focus.

Then came the mid-terms and it was all over.

Is there a need? Well, we could go on and on with our heads in the sand and pretend that we don't already have about 10M undocumented immigrants here. Once we acknowledge the situation, we either need to normalize or deport them. That's a political question.

Does Obama have the right? That's a legal question. Don't trust the Fox News blowhards to get that one right. To them, everything is a political question.

Here's the funny thing, the Republicans have talked about de-funding the executive order. But apparently, immigration is funded through fees rather than taxes, so while Congress can de-fund many things, they can't passive-aggressively de-fund immigration.

So, what is Obama's political calculus? Well, he knows full well that this will drive the right wing-nuts nuts. If there was a sliver of a chance of the Republicans passing reform before (there wasn't), then any such hope is dead now. (If Obama is for anything, the GOP must oppose it.) The crazier Obama makes them, the more likely the GOP leaders will say really offensive stuff. This will cement the loss of the Hispanic vote for the GOP for a couple of decades or so. This is brilliant politics, if you ask me. Obama is using the GOP's hatred for him as a means to manipulate them. They just can't help themselves.


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## milesito (Nov 21, 2014)

While my general views may be considered more middle of the road, I think Obama was subjected to quite a bit of unproductive politics by his opponents. This in turn created a reaction in the opposite direction just as strong...and back and forth they go. I think the whole filibuster stuff was so extreme that nothing got done. He knows the writing is on the walls for his party once the republicans take over and the democratic party is going to loose a lot of momentum on issues..he's doing what he can. whether it's legal or not, i have no clue...but I think it is one issue that has been left unaddressed and he is trying to leave his mark on - for better or worse, at least it regalvanized debate on the issue and gets this unaddressed issue moving in a direction...but it's all politics. obama was stifled in many regards by filibusters up the ying yang..but now this move calls everyone's hands because whoever votes against this might loose the hispanic vote in 2016.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 21, 2014)

Adrian, needless to say I disagree with everything you say. Every point.

And I wish our president would turn into a communist. At least it would be a heavier weight on the scale.


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## chimuelo (Nov 21, 2014)

Meanwhile, back at the Ranch.....
The Sheep are herded into the proper pasture by the 2 Dogs that serve the same master in DC.
If the GOP Canine were to run towards the Sheep, they simply allow it to run through, closing their ranks as it passes.
But with a Liberal Dog and GOP Dog on both flanks, they can guide the Sheep exactly where they were meant to go.
Then go and see the Bosses and celebrate another session of "Crisis Management."


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## NYC Composer (Nov 21, 2014)

I've never thought it was a good idea to have millions of people undocumented within our borders.

It's inhumane and insane to take up the notion of hunting down and deporting millions of people. First, the financial cost would be enormous. Second, we're not Nazis.

That leaves nothing but providing some sort of legal status for those people that documents their presence here. That should be done with legislation, but Congress has failed to act. They still can, but I find it doubtful they will, so the President will act. Within his actions, he should work to firm up the borders so that this is not a constant and continuing problem.

To those who say this is cynical politics, well, I see that side of it. It all still needs to be done. Some things are both practical and political.


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## chimuelo (Nov 21, 2014)

It's amazing that people actually think families are being torn apart and being deported.
We can't even deport criminals we catch, they are released back into the community.
So to think good hard working Mexican families are being torn apart is just more Washington Fairy Tales.
Notice this is another symbolistic gesture that lasts 3 years.
Why not permanent...?

This is great entertainment though, once you start to think like these guys and watch people arguing amongst themselves to gain the high moral ground, it's typical of the elected officials, and sad that so many good people let themselves get all wrapped up in this left / right nonsense when the left/ right dipsticks created this problem to begin with.

A small gesture to keep the game alive is better than nothing as the entire scam shown to us, as a problem had to eventually appear to be seen as an issue being "worked" on.

Obama should be thanked by future trail lawyers and billionaires puppets as when they get to DC they too can "fix" the same problems over and over like the war on poverty, war on drugs, war on everything that never ends. The best gig in the world actually.

I can imagine lawyers from Europe telling themselves they should really be where the money is, in DC. Having to actually live in a nation where bribes are illegal must be such a drag....


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## NYC Composer (Nov 21, 2014)

chimuelo @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> It's amazing that people actually think families are being torn apart and being deported.
> We can't even deport criminals we catch, they are released back into the community.
> So to think good hard working Mexican families are being torn apart is just more Washington Fairy Tales.
> Notice this is another symbolistic gesture that lasts 3 years.
> ...



On the other hand, not one thing you said obviated any of my points.


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## AC986 (Nov 22, 2014)

chimuelo @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> Having to actually live in a nation where bribes are illegal must be such a drag....



Oh no no no no no nooooooo!

You've obviously never heard of FIFA and Sepp Blatter.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 22, 2014)

adriancook @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> chimuelo @ Sat Nov 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Having to actually live in a nation where bribes are illegal must be such a drag....
> ...



Or Barclays. Or the LIBOR manipulation boondoggle.


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## AC986 (Nov 22, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> adriancook @ Sat Nov 22 said:
> 
> 
> > chimuelo @ Sat Nov 22 said:
> ...



Absolutely Larry. 

Although it's scarcely worth mentioning I know, but the boss of Barclays at the time, is in fact an American.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 22, 2014)

Clearly, the U.S. must give back all the land acquired in the Louisiana Purchase since Thomas Jefferson obviously exceeded his Constitutional authority as President 

What Obama ha done is simply common sense and hopefully, it will force the House to finally pass a bill.


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## fitzo (Nov 22, 2014)

chimuelo @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> It's amazing that people actually think families are being torn apart and being deported.
> We can't even deport criminals we catch, they are released back into the community.
> So to think good hard working Mexican families are being torn apart is just more Washington Fairy Tales.
> ...



It happened to the family that owned the house behind mine. Oscar was born in LA, his wife in Guadalajara. She was an illegal immigrant. Together, they had three kids and ended up living here in the Chicago area.

Somehow, she got busted for illegal immigration (no other "crime") and was deported to Mexico. Though they could have stayed, she took the kids with them so Oscar could work an additional job to hire a lawyer. Two years and scads of lawyer money later, she was given re-entrance and a green card, mostly because of the kids being US citizens.

So, it does indeed occur.


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## José Herring (Nov 22, 2014)

It's hard to fathom in a land where everybody is an immigrant, why immigration is such a huge topic. We all came over on a boat of some kind or another. At least with Mexicans, they can walk here, so transportation isn't a problem.


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## KEnK (Nov 22, 2014)

josejherring @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> It's hard to fathom in a land where everybody is an immigrant, why immigration is such a huge topic. We all came over on a boat of some kind or another. At least with Mexicans, they can walk here, so transportation isn't a problem.


Jose-

I think the answer to that is racism.
(If the "Illegals" in question were white...)
It's the GOP that's opposed to immigration reform-
other than building a fence and deportation-
Remember Romney's "self deportation" platform?

The GOP is the White Southern (Tea and) Cracker Party now.

Their record speaks for itself.

k


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## Vlzmusic (Nov 22, 2014)

Why, what happened?

Can we come too now?


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 22, 2014)

Can't blame lack of immigration on the GOP alone. From 2008-2010, Dems had the Presidency, the House, and the Senate. Yet nothing got done about immigration.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 22, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> Can't blame lack of immigration on the GOP alone. From 2008-2010, Dems had the Presidency, the House, and the Senate. Yet nothing got done about immigration.



I agree. Still needs to be done, however. Congress has had even longer as a two party entity.


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## José Herring (Nov 22, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> Can't blame lack of immigration on the GOP alone. From 2008-2010, Dems had the Presidency, the House, and the Senate. Yet nothing got done about immigration.



It was obvious back then and it's obvious now that the congress whether Dems or GOP fears the white voter backlash. So of course Obama has to do something himself, he's got nothing to lose now in terms of votes.


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 22, 2014)

KEnK @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> I think the answer to that is racism.
> 
> ...
> 
> The GOP is the White Southern (Tea and) Cracker Party now.


Calls racism... then calls white people 'crackers'. (o)


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## NYC Composer (Nov 22, 2014)

marclawsonmusic @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> KEnK @ Sat Nov 22 said:
> 
> 
> > I think the answer to that is racism.
> ...



Excellent point. I missed that post. Tsk.


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## KEnK (Nov 22, 2014)

marclawsonmusic @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> Calls racism... then calls white people 'crackers'. (o)





NYC Composer @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> Excellent point. I missed that post. Tsk.


Sorry- but they are a bunch of Crackers-
Exactly that. 
Consider the endless anti science rhetoric

What do you think the "voter ID" laws are about?
Look at the redistricting in GOP dominated states.
It's entirely about minimizing the black vote as much as they can.

The Good Ol' Boys
Tea And Cracker Party
/\~O


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## Mike Marino (Nov 22, 2014)

> Sorry- but they are a bunch of Crackers-
> Exactly that.
> Consider the endless anti science rhetoric



Brings to mind the old saying: Fools are often in error, but never in doubt.


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## KEnK (Nov 22, 2014)

Mike Marino @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> > Sorry- but they are a bunch of Crackers-
> > Exactly that.
> > Consider the endless anti science rhetoric
> 
> ...


Don't read the news much, do ya

How about if I call them treasonous subversive saboteurs,
and the biggest threat to democracy this nation has ever faced?

Would that be better?


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 22, 2014)

josejherring @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> Michael K. Bain @ Sat Nov 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Can't blame lack of immigration on the GOP alone. From 2008-2010, Dems had the Presidency, the House, and the Senate. Yet nothing got done about immigration.
> ...



Sure, there are some racists out there, but people from all races are against this. It's not about race for most. Here are just 3 groups who are against this executive order:

(1) People who object to giving work permits to 5 million illegal immigrants. That takes works from the hands of citizens who need it. And don't give me that same tired line "Citizens won't do 'that type' of work". They will, and they do. 

(2) Legal immigrants who spend years and money doing things the right way.

(3) Those who believe that Obama's executive action is illegal. 

Lastly, don't be fooled into thinking that Obama is doing this for the sake of the illegal immigrants. He doesn't give a rat's ass about them.This is a power ploy for him, but that's not all. He sees this as a way to increase the Democrat voting base. He thinks it will get the Dems 5 million new voters.


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## Mike Marino (Nov 22, 2014)

> Don't read the news much, do ya
> 
> How about if I call them treasonous subversive saboteurs,
> and the biggest threat to democracy this nation has ever faced?
> ...



Awwwwww, so sweet of you. But please, don't change on my behalf.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 22, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> (2) Legal immigrants who spend years and money doing things the right way.
> 
> 
> Lastly, don't be fooled into thinking that Obama is doing this for the sake of the illegal immigrants. He doesn't give a rat's ass about them.This is a power ploy for him, but that's not all. He sees this as a way to increase the Democrat voting base. He thinks it will get the Dems 5 million new voters.



Amazing that you have the ability to look into a person's soul and see what he has convictions about and what he does not. Really special.


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 22, 2014)

KEnK @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> How about if I call them treasonous subversive saboteurs,
> and the biggest threat to democracy this nation has ever faced?


Good grief! The last time I heard this much talk of 'treason' was in Game of Thrones.

Listen, I like you guys... but some of you take yourselves way too seriously!

I find that in these trying times, when brother is pitted against brother... it is helpful to consult the wise guru Da-ev Cha-epell. Only in his wisdom, can our peoples find peace.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8cc_1352405973


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 22, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> Michael K. Bain @ Sat Nov 22 said:
> 
> 
> > (2) Legal immigrants who spend years and money doing things the right way.
> ...



It's a gift. 

But it's not that hard to see it. If he really cared about the immigrants, he would've done something about it those two years he had both houses of congress supporting him.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 22, 2014)

He did not have both houses supporting him by enough votes and those against it would not let it come to an uo/down vote.

I will ay the same thing I said about, Bush, Clinton, the elder Bush and virtually every president: if you think either "the man can do no wrong" or "the man can do no right" you are equally looking at the world through a child's eyes.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 22, 2014)

KEnK @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> Mike Marino @ Sat Nov 22 said:
> 
> 
> > > Sorry- but they are a bunch of Crackers-
> ...



Yes. Those words are political opinions (misguided in my view, but whatever.). The other was a racist epithet.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 22, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> Lastly, don't be fooled into thinking that Obama is doing this for the sake of the illegal immigrants. He doesn't give a rat's ass about them.This is a power ploy for him, but that's not all. He sees this as a way to increase the Democrat voting base. He thinks it will get the Dems 5 million new voters.



As the right to vote is only given to citizens and he's not proposing the granting of citizenship, I fail to understand your math.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 22, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> Michael K. Bain @ Sat Nov 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Lastly, don't be fooled into thinking that Obama is doing this for the sake of the illegal immigrants. He doesn't give a rat's ass about them.This is a power ploy for him, but that's not all. He sees this as a way to increase the Democrat voting base. He thinks it will get the Dems 5 million new voters.
> ...


That's because you're not looking at the entire equation. There are two possible sums...

(1) That this immigration action is piecemeal. This is just the first step.

(2) That those who do eventually become citizens will remember who it was that saved them from deportation in the first place.

Texas BLUE? I don't think it will happen, but I do believe that's one of their endgames. And if Texas ever goes blue, there will never be a Republican congress again.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 22, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> He did not have both houses supporting him by enough votes and those against it would not let it come to an uo/down vote.



Is that right?



EastWest Lurker @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> I will say the same thing I said about, Bush, Clinton, the elder Bush and virtually every president: if you think either "the man can do no wrong" or "the man can do no right" you are equally looking at the world through a child's eyes.



I don't trust politicians at all, actually. But least of all the Democrats. 

And I can name one good thing Obama did. The credit card legislation. Other than that, he has made me mad at just about every turn.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 22, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Nov 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Michael K. Bain @ Sat Nov 22 said:
> ...



1. Worry about it in 15 years.
2. Ditto.
3. That's fine with me :wink: 

I'd especially love to see Texas turn blue because my best pal lives there, and he'd turn purple!


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## RiffWraith (Nov 22, 2014)

Some good thoughts here. Except the racist comments. Can we find some way to leave those types of comments off this board, perhaps? Or is that too difficult?




> Does Obama have the right? That's a legal question. Don't trust the Fox News blowhards to get that one right.



I don't trust _any_ news media org. as far as I can throw, well, the_ entire media org_. Fox's guests have been saying it's illegal (J.Turley for one), but so have guests on MSNBC and CNN. So, this is not a "Fox News" thing.




Michael K. Bain @ Sun Nov 23 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Nov 22 said:
> 
> 
> > He did not have both houses supporting him by enough votes and those against it would not let it come to an uo/down vote.
> ...



It might be, but that doesn't make it legal for him to do what he did. The prevailing argument that says, "well, Congress wouldn't act, so the Pres did" is, IMHO not a valid one. Wasn't it Obama himself - when asked about why he doesn't use executive powers to do something about immigration - who said, "I do not have the authority"? Yes it was him. And the people who are in favor of this action just cant seem to come up with a viable answer when asked about this. Geraldo Rivera on Megyn Kelly (uh-oh! Fox News alert!) as one ex. When Megyn pointed out that Obama himself said he didn't have the authority several times in the past, what was Geraldo's response? "I don't care". Nice!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yySKo3LiUo

So yes, to me this is a legal question. The people who know their shit (again, I point to J. Turley) who say it's illegal, back up their claims with facts and actual constitutional language. The people who say it is legal, either say "I don't care" or have some other reason based on their own personal opinions and beliefs. Gee, which way do you think I am leaning here? "Hmmm... let's see here... listen to someone who forms an opinion based on what they feel is right, or listen to the nationally recognized legal scholar who specializes in constitutional law?" Not a tough decision here... 

If someone has a good argument _from a legal standpoint_ as to why this should stand - let's have it. I have not heard one yet - from anyone anywhere.

Cheers.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 22, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Sun Nov 23 said:


> Some good thoughts here. Except the racist comments. Can we find some way to leave those types of comments off this board, perhaps? Or is that too difficult?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Or you could take the word of the Constitutional law professor.

Just sayin'. :wink:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 22, 2014)

> Some good thoughts here. Except the racist comments. Can we find some way to leave those types of comments off this board, perhaps? Or is that too difficult?



The truth is that racism is behind a lot this, like it or not. Or in many cases people think they have an excuse to be inhuman assholes even if they're not racist. Yes it's a difficult issue, but the lack of humanity in so many people really makes me sick.

We're talking about millions of children who were brought here illegally or were born here to parents who are here illegally, families getting broken up, real people with actual lives.

This isn't an intellectual chin-stroking issue, it's humanity.


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## clarkus (Nov 22, 2014)

I have to admit I haven't waded through all of this, but has anyone pointed out that:

- If you go back a few generations, we all came over on the boat.

- The emancipation proclamation was, in identical fashion, a presidential decree that sidestepped congress.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 22, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Nov 23 said:


> > Some good thoughts here. Except the racist comments. Can we find some way to leave those types of comments off this board, perhaps? Or is that too difficult?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Of course I agree with you, with one difference-exactly HOW we do it is an intellectual chin-stroker. It's not a simple problem, and there are a LOT of points of view.


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## KEnK (Nov 23, 2014)

So-

Several of you think my use of the term "Cracker" is racist.
Derogatory? yes
Provocative? yes

As a white person, personally I don't think my use of the term
to describe the likes of Michelle Bachmann, Louie Gohmert, Rand Paul or
even Ted Cruz is racist.

Look it up in a dictionary.

To me-
Voter ID laws, the redistricting that has occurred in red states,
the endless hatred of all things Obama 
(have a look at those Tea Party signs during the ACA protests)
are in fact blatant institutionalized racism.

This is far more insidious than my using a term to describe a right wing mind set.

I was going to just let it go, but it's been mentioned several times.
I've been listening the right-wing rhetoric for a long time.

Racist? never >8o :roll:


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 23, 2014)

Name calling never bolsters an argument, no matter which side of the political spectrum one is on.


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## RiffWraith (Nov 23, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Nov 23 said:


> We're talking about millions of children who were brought here illegally or were born here to parents who are here illegally, families getting broken up, real people with actual lives.
> 
> This isn't an intellectual chin-stroking issue, it's humanity.



I am not saying it's not humanity, and I am not saying it shouldn't be done. But there is a right way and a wrong way. And IMHO, a humanitarian crisis (if you want to call it that) should not be handled illegally. "Well, we don't want to tear apart families, so let's break the law!" Really? Remember - the President's job is to enforce the law. Not make up his own as he goes along. If he is not enforcing the laws as they appear currently on the books - he is not doing his job. Even if many people think it's the right thing to do.



> - The emancipation proclamation was, in identical fashion, a presidential decree that sidestepped congress.



Completely different scenario. Lincoln did that as a war measure, which he was allowed to do as CICOTAF. That's not the same as the Pres simply stopping deportations because he feels like it.



> - If you go back a few generations, we all came over on the boat.



Not exactly true.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 23, 2014)

Hey Jeff, what about the Louisiana Purchase? Not wartime.


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## RiffWraith (Nov 23, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Nov 23 said:


> Hey Jeff, what about the Louisiana Purchase?



Unconstitutional.

Tho Jefferson did potentially_ avoid a war _by doing so... hard to compare the LP to what Obama has done.

Nice try, tho.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 23, 2014)

Right. And lots of presidents did "unconstitutional" things that were bemoaned at the time as power grabs.

You will find constitutional lawyers/scholars arguing it both ways. It isn't actually "unconstitutional" until the Supreme Court declares it "unconstitutional."


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## KEnK (Nov 23, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Nov 23 said:


> Name calling never bolsters an argument, no matter which side of the political spectrum one is on.


Of course you're right Jay.
It was a momentary weakness on my part.
But in fact I didn't actually say "So & So is a Cracker",
(just the entire GOP) :twisted: 

The Term "Tea & Cracker Party" is what I've habitual referred to them as
ever since a bunch of nice Tea Party Folk chose to express their political opinion
by spitting on Congressman John Lewis because he dared to walk by their protest.
(and this while a couple of GOP Congressmen were egging the crowd on from a safe distance on a nearby balcony)

I clearly remember the horrid absolutely racist signs that were everywhere during those protests. 

Unlike many who choose their news sources based on their ideology,
I've always paid attention to the right wing perspective. (as in know thy enemy)
The far right has worked very hard to permanently alienate about half of the country. They've succeeded.

And I'll just add this:
My Black Jazz musician friends love that I call it the "Tea & Cracker Party".

So the term slipped out here because of habit.
I do apologize for offending those w/ heightened sensitivities.

Think of it as a "Term of Endearment", similar to Obama being referred to as 
a "Kenyan anti-colonial Nationalist" or whatever Gingrich used to say.

that's more than enough about this slip

k


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 23, 2014)

Crackers is the appropriate description. So what if it's name-calling. Does anyone mistake it for prejudice against white people here? Puhleeze. 
 
And the focus on legality has always struck me as ludicrous. We have to deal with reality.


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## KEnK (Nov 23, 2014)

Thanks Nick-

But hopefully there's been enough talk about 
the Crackerization of half the country. :wink: 

It's true that it isn't productive


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## rJames (Nov 23, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Fri Nov 21 said:


> I was wondering how the rest of you feel about what Obama has done here, with regards to immigration.
> 
> He says the system is broken and needs to be fixed. I am not really sure what the process is... is it really broken?
> 
> ...



This seems to be the question tat the right hangs their hat on but amazingly to me, even Wolf Blitzer kept trying to make a news story out of asking Dems,"didn't Obama just say that he couldn't do what needs to be done to immigration reform?? and now he's doing it anyway?"

I'm not relying on quote here but this is my take.

Obama said that he cannot do what needs to be done because he's not an emperor, the congress has to act. total paraphrase.

He cannot do what "NEEDS" to be done which is fixing the pathway to citizenship. He just cannot do that. And he hasn't done anything to change that. There is lots to be done that cannot be done by executive order. But what can be done, he will do.

His "fixes" will only last during his presidency and maybe the next if it is a Dem who wants to keep the new status quo.

In short, he said he cannot do what needs to be done. And he hasn't done that. He is acting now but not on the things that he cannot do. He can't touch citizenship requirements etc. And he has not. But the executive has power within the executive branch of government. Which oversees the operations. Not pathways to citizenship and other stuff which is beyond my knowledge.

But it is quite simple to understand how he "cannot act to fix all of the things that need to be fixed," while at the same time taking executive action to fix what he can.

Ron


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 23, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Nov 23 said:


> Crackers is the appropriate description. So what if it's name-calling. Does anyone mistake it for prejudice against white people here? Puhleeze.


For my part, I just found it highly _ironic _that someone who professed concern about racial issues - even going as far as to say the entire immigration issue is about race - could also in the same breath use derogatory racial language.

I still find it ironic, and a bit hypocritical too.

Sorry, but some of the logic in this thread just doesn't add up. It hurts my brain. Time to go back to lurker status... ~o)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 23, 2014)

Okay, but - forgive me if I'm wrong, Marc - embedded in that is that you don't like it when people say this is racism.

Yet it absolutely is. Maybe not for you, but in general of course it is. And when it's not racism per se, it's people wanting to feel superior to someone else.

I put my economic arguments in the second post in this thread. The costs of illegal immigration are a truly minor concern.

So why do people go on and on about illegal immigration if it's not racism?

***

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracker_(pejorative)>


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 23, 2014)

I guess I left out some stats in that earlier post about where we should be focusing.

We have a trade deficit of $500 billion, which is about 3% of GDP. Bringing that into balance would create about 6.5 million jobs here - 4.x million directly, the rest indirectly from increased activity.

So why not shout about lowering the dollar instead of snarling at poor Mexican people?


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## NYC Composer (Nov 23, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Nov 23 said:


> Crackers is the appropriate description. So what if it's name-calling. Does anyone mistake it for prejudice against white people here? Puhleeze.



Yes."So what if it's name calling?" Are you fcking serious? How about faggot or queer ? 

Honky, cracker, ofay, redneck, those are racist terms, especially when used by black folks. I get it, elevating dialogue is not what you're about once you've identified the enemy, but I am. That crap shoukd be over after junior high.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 23, 2014)

marclawsonmusic @ Sun Nov 23 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Nov 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Crackers is the appropriate description. So what if it's name-calling. Does anyone mistake it for prejudice against white people here? Puhleeze.
> ...



Marc-no, exactly the opposite. Be a voice in the conversation whether you're agreed with or not (and you and I disagree plenty.) We need participants, not lurkers, and we need balance- otherwise, we're all talking exclusively to people who agree with our own views. There is rarely anything productive about a closed circle.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 23, 2014)

KEnK @ Sun Nov 23 said:


> So-
> 
> Several of you think my use of the term "Cracker" is racist.
> Derogatory? yes
> ...



Crackers refers to slave drivers, cracking their whips. 

Now, whether you calling the GOP "slave drivers" is racism or not, I don't know. But I do know it's hateful, and inaccurate.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 23, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 23 said:


> marclawsonmusic @ Sun Nov 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Nov 23 said:
> ...



NYC, you can say that, because you treat those with whom you disagree with respect. And that's appreciated

But with some others on your side calling Republicans "stupid", "greedy" "racists", "crackers (slave drivers)" and more, the conservative among us don't exactly feel welcome in this forum.

Myself, I only pop in when someone says something I find particularly upsetting. However, I shouldn't even do that.

When you get down to it, the truth is that political discourse on the internet serves no purpose. Liberals won't change their minds. Conservatives won't change their minds. It's just a waste of time - a particularly addicting waste of time, but a waste of time, no less.


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 23, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Nov 23 said:


> Okay, but - forgive me if I'm wrong, Marc - embedded in that is that you don't like it when people say this is racism.


No, you are putting words in my mouth. I really have no opinion on the immigration issue.

However, I do find it amusing when self-righteous people fall on their own swords... which is the only reason I commented on this thread in the first place. The softball KenK threw was just too tempting not to hit.


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## Mike Marino (Nov 23, 2014)

> NYC, you can say that, because you treat those with whom you disagree with respect. And that's appreciated
> 
> But with some others on your side calling Republicans "stupid", "greedy" "racists", "crackers (slave drivers)" and more, the conservative among us don't exactly feel welcome in this forum.
> 
> ...



+1


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## NYC Composer (Nov 23, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Sun Nov 23 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 23 said:
> 
> 
> > marclawsonmusic @ Sun Nov 23 said:
> ...



I don't expect to change anyone's mind, and I object to the idea of "sides". I'm not on a team. I have strong views, and I have no major problem with others with strong views as long as they express them with some degree of respect. 

I would say this- there is no point to political discourse ANYWHERE if your mind is closed and you simply want to promulgate your views. That's not discourse, and it's not debate. 
It's personal and ideological self- validation, and it's always been with us, but the Internet has turned up the shrillness and volume of the rhetoric.


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## gsilbers (Nov 23, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Sat Nov 22 said:


> josejherring @ Sat Nov 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Michael K. Bain @ Sat Nov 22 said:
> ...




I think you are wrong with number one. they do jobs that normally wouldnt pay a decent wage for A US person. but to be completly right oon my point or yours its a very hard thing to prove, thus i think its a matter of scales. such a big grey area of what exact jobs and what not. 

What I do think - paralel to your point and barley touched in all comments, is that the US DOES HAVE jobs that Americans qualify but corporations keep saying they have a hard time finding qualified people. Corporations kept asking for more H1b visas so for more of these qualified employees could be employed and make it a competitve global advantage. 
thats the myth. 
For me, I think these corporations want to gve h1b visas to people that will charge much less than an american counterpart. so for example a corporation needs an inventory database with custom GUI they need to hire programmers. programmers charge a lot. for a US programmer doing such an extensive job it would be about almost 100k a year. plus how many years they need. in the other hand, the corporation just files some immigration paperwork and gets an indian programmer charging half that. therefore the real competitive advantage is the lower payroll. and once more, sucking the life of middle class USA.


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## KEnK (Nov 23, 2014)

marclawsonmusic @ Sun Nov 23 said:


> I do find it amusing when self-righteous people fall on their own swords... which is the only reason I commented on this thread in the first place. The softball KenK threw was just too tempting not to hit.


Sorry-

I don't recall falling on any sword.

I've been listening to divisive hateful rhetoric since Obama was elected.
"They" decided to obstruct his every move even before he took office.
I've seen a GOP led House and Senate minority use the filibuster to
economically sabotage the government.
I've seen a conservative Supreme Court sell out our Democracy to highest bidder.
The redistricting and voter ID laws are blatantly about suppressing the minority vote. 
There hasn't been this level of division/obstruction since the Civil War. 
(or would that be the "War between the States"?)
Look at how people voted by race and location.
The data is there.

The divide, including immigration, is motivated and propelled by race.

So I say "they" are treasonous- 
the Tea Party Movement has barely hidden it's "racial" agenda.
To me they're traitors, to you they're heroes.
I said what I said and I'll stand by it.
I tried to back off but you're not letting it go-

Tell you what, if there's ever a vote for something called the 
The United States of Arizona And Texas and whoever else wants to sign up,
I'll support that.

It's ridiculous to accuse a white person of racism against other white people.
Wtf is that?

Cracker, Redneck etc are not racist terms- It's a state of mind.
That's what I'm talking about- 
It's not racist to say there's a White Southern Mindset.
Look at the data- Look at who voted for what.
It's a real thing.

And yes I used a derogatory term to describe some of my white brothers.
It's not racist though.

Put that in your corn cob pipe.


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## gsilbers (Nov 23, 2014)

Id like to point out that this thread seems heavy on the let side. which as musicians seems appropiate. one thing i see on many forums and specially on yahoo and msn comments is how hatefull they are. I think there are some republican point of views that are valid and things are not always so black and white/left and right. 
my point is that its hard to find a proper right wing comment or point of view that doesnt pass the "impeach obdumbo" and illigals are iligal therefore the law says its iligal so they have to be deported and so on. 
If they are Iligals then if you pull a Iligal u-turn or steal candy at a store you should get deported? poeple do iligal things but the law can make them pay a fine and/or face jail time. immigration is not an easy topic. every story is different. and 11 million is very high number. which affects a lot of things. some are jobs, some are economics advantages for the employers, some are taxes wasted on them. 
people comments also say they take us taxpayers resources. id do like to see something more researched and have some stats. for example, kids go to public school funded by taxpayers. but a big company pays for more taxes, and if these big companies hire a bunch $5hr wage workers then they are saving a ton of money making them more profitable and able to grow and pay more taxes. also, dnt these workers get their taxes witheld since they use fake SS? Besides the money part, the social one of you want these kids being in a US public school and not having millions growing up in the side lines to become a bigger issue in the future. but, as my previous point mentioned, id liekt o see more stats and real research and not hateful comments comiing from the right. 
its also good to listen to others complaints and try to work together on issues so they can understand and we can understand. 

as for my main view of immigration here in the US:

1) give a long path to citizenship to non criminals but they go back of the line ( i sure spent about 10 years and pretty penny getting the different immigration statuses - btw ask me if i hate lawyers) 

2) For those who apply then have them pay a huge fine payable in afforable payments. 

3) with that money build a huge f u king wall and or get a 99% no illigal crossings on the borders. no drugs, no more undocumented workers. that way the ones already here can get taken care of. and no cartel issues.

4) have the everify program made law so companies cant hire undocumented workers. 


the above is directly related to the millions of undocumented workers already here. 

there is also a whole set of side issues. one pointed out by nick about the farm subsidies as well as nafta agreements thats the whole reason there is so much illigal immigration ni the first place coming from mexico. very interesting stuff that huge and it ties all together. so again, just finding comments saying hateful things. the scary part is that it seems its growing. more against anything obama , which a lot is common sense stuff but as long as obama says it they are very agsint and thats scary.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 23, 2014)

> Id like to point out that this thread seems heavy on the let side. which as musicians seems appropiate



There's this misconception going around that it's perfectly acceptable to be Republican/conservative.

Wrong. It's a sociopathological disorder of the highest order.

And no, I'm not kidding (although I'm not shouting at you when I say it, gsilbers, just saying it).


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## gsilbers (Nov 23, 2014)

i think latley repubicans got very scary and dumb and the tea party is one of the outcomes. 

on the other hand there is this:
http://theweek.com/article/index/261725 ... c-industry


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 23, 2014)

Larry, read the Wikipedia link. "Cracker" is pretty innocuous, and its etymology is not clear.

But if you don't like it, let's just substitute "the low tooth-to-tattoo ratio community."


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## givemenoughrope (Nov 23, 2014)

Why you gotta bring tattoos into this? Cmon. Pretty sure I have all my teeth though. 

Like Louis CK said, "cracker" isn't going to hurt my feelings. It's quite alright. The time machine bit is good too.


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 23, 2014)

KEnK @ Sun Nov 23 said:


> To me they're traitors, to you they're heroes.
> 
> ...
> 
> Put that in your corn cob pipe.


Hey bub, when did I ever say I supported the tea party or anything remotely conservative?

I have not discussed my own politics nor have I even weighed in on the immigration topic. All I did was point out an inconsistency in your comments.

I can tolerate a lot of things, but other people telling me what _I_ think or putting words in my mouth is not one of them. This is the second time it has happened on this thread and it is unacceptable.

Some of you guys need to learn a thing or two about respect and personal boundaries. The level of dysfunction on this thread is unreal.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 23, 2014)

Marc, this is what I wrote:

"Okay, but - forgive me if I'm wrong, Marc - embedded in that is that you don't like it when people say this is racism. 

Yet it absolutely is. Maybe not for you, but in general of course it is. And when it's not racism per se, it's people wanting to feel superior to someone else."

Sorry if you think that's dysfunctional or not respecting your personal boundaries, but I don't think it is.

Meanwhile I have a very hard time...never mind respecting, but not completely hating the Republican party. Sorry, they're doing their best to ruin people's lives. There's nothing worth respecting about that. Hence my insults. They're appropriate.

And the low tooth-to-tattoo ratio community is their base. Them and greedy rich pigs.

Givemeenoughrope, something like 1/3 of all people under 35 have tattoos, and I'm obviously not insulting everyone who likes them.  I'm talking about crack...I mean the Republican base.


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 23, 2014)

Good night, Nick. Good night, vi-control. This playground has too many mean kids for me.


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## KEnK (Nov 23, 2014)

in case you're still lurking...

I was speaking in broad sweeping generalizations.
Your comments towards me were personally insulting.
I even "apologized" but you weren't letting it go.
So I "flamed" you.

:roll:


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## NYC Composer (Nov 23, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Nov 23 said:


> Larry, read the Wikipedia link. "Cracker" is pretty innocuous, and its etymology is not clear.
> 
> But if you don't like it, let's just substitute "the low tooth-to-tattoo ratio community."



Why don't we just use the "N' word? After all, all the cool kids are, even if they put an a on the end of it instead of an er. 

YOUR world is black and white (heh), Nick....but THE world isn't.

I've said it before-I believe history is on the side of the progressive mindset and I think that's demonstrable, but I'm not going to join in the name calling chorus. It offends me when people do it regardless of which side of the aisle they stand on.

Meanwhile, back on point- I believe it would be better to do this legislatively and I have no idea what the constitutionality of Obama's proposed executive action is, but I wish the same people who are howling about the power grab by the executive branch would have howled even more loudly when the Bush administration used outright lies to enter a war of choice and subsequently used the Justice Dept. to legalize torture. The fact that the outrage was so muted in the Republican party when those things took place removes a lot of credibility. Anyway, going forward, the courts will surely decide the legality of the President's actions, not us. 

"Actions"-now THERE'S a word Congress should take up-on BOTH sides of the aisle.


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## givemenoughrope (Nov 23, 2014)

Nick, i was just kidding. Tattoos mean that you're subhuman. 

Actually I'm kidding again. Trying to lighten the thread a bit...


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## KEnK (Nov 23, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 23 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Nov 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Larry, read the Wikipedia link. "Cracker" is pretty innocuous, and its etymology is not clear.
> ...


Larry-

Sorry for messing the thread up,
but "Cracker" and "the N word" do not have equal weight.

My comments, even if out of line, were general, not personal.

btw- What do you think "Kenyan anti-colonial Nationalist" is code for?

k


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 23, 2014)

> YOUR world is black and white (heh), Nick



Not at all, Larry. There are many different viewpoints that are worth discussing.

Others are just maddeningly stupid, and unlike you I see no reason to pretend otherwise.

And the Republican reaction to this is in the latter category. That is black and white.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 23, 2014)

Yeah cracker and the N word have different weights!

We're talking about prejudice. I haven't met too many white people who have experienced that in America.

I know, I know, there are bad names for every group. But that's something else too.


***


> Meanwhile, back on point- I believe it would be better to do this legislatively



No kidding it would be better. But that's not happening. Our political system really is broken. And guess which party is responsible?


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## NYC Composer (Nov 23, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Nov 24 said:


> Yeah cracker and the N word have different weights!
> 
> We're talking about prejudice. I haven't met too many white people who have experienced that in America.
> 
> ...



Yes yes, I know. They are stupid moron imbecilic crackers, every one of them, and they're wrong. Not one Republican has a brain in their head and they're all pure evil and morons. Did I mention they were all stupid?

We don't really need a united country-what we need is people standing on one side of the line or the other, screaming epithets. Now THAT'S civilization.

Hey, I have an idea-why don't we split into two countries? Encourage the Republicans to secede, or the Dems can do it on their own-then everyone can call people morons from their side of the border until the thing escalates into a non-civil war. Like, a real one. With bullets and blood and such.


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## AC986 (Nov 24, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 23 said:


> Yes yes, I know. They are stupid moron imbecilic crackers, every one of them, and they're wrong. Not one Republican has a brain in their head and they're all pure evil and morons. Did I mention they were all stupid?



I was worried about Nick going senile first out of all us older residents in this mental institute. But that said, I get like that about liberals in this country.


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## gbar (Nov 24, 2014)

KEnK @ Sun Nov 23 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 23 said:
> 
> 
> > btw- What do you think "Kenyan anti-colonial Nationalist" is code for?
> ...



I'm going to guess "Fully detached from reality and proud of it"?

Arguing with crazy people is pointless beyond testing your patience, resolve to be level headed, and tolerance for hystrionic stupidity.

You can't shame them, you can't change them. When you are dealing with that sort of dysfunction one of two things happen: you either become very good at self-regulation, or you wind up reacting to the insanity with equally abrasive counter-insanity., and most folks wind up falling into the latter camp. Sad but true.

It's like trying to live with somebody with a serious personality disorder. After a while, it drives most people a bit crazy themselves.


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## chimuelo (Nov 24, 2014)

Brotha' Man Jose.

I think you are right about a backlash of voters, but have you seen the Hispanic vote for Republican Governors across the former "Blue States."

If you combine those racist Hispanics with racist whites who no longer support the President, even though he is not black, but of mixed ethnicity, there appears to be a trend.

So rather than take a chance and seeing a complete removal of white rich Liberals from DC, they pushed off executive action until after the election, and after getting their hats handed to them, had only one option left.

Let's hope a few thousand families can benefit from this. We already see Liberals and Conservatives fundraising from another Crisis they created.

Reminds me of Liberals making endless speeches about Gun Control.
We know they own Guns, the public records prove this, and just passing legislation that makes Assault Rifles illegal would have been easy in 2009.

They chose to increase the membership numbers of the NRA and cause ammo stockpiles to be depleted and back ordered for 2-3 years.

Who's fooling who here....?

Let the Sheep Fights continue..........


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 24, 2014)

chimuelo @ Mon Nov 24 said:


> Brotha' Man Jose.
> 
> I think you are right about a backlash of voters, but have you seen the Hispanic vote for Republican Governors across the former "Blue States."
> 
> ...



And you sir are just conforming to the "government can't be trusted" sheep.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 24, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Nov 24 said:


> And you sir are just conforming to the "government can't be trusted" sheep.


I guess I'm one of those sheep. I align with conservative views, but I don't put my trust in a Democrat or Republican government.


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## woodsdenis (Nov 24, 2014)

Never ceases to amaze me how the term/word "liberal" differs in meaning on either side of the Atlantic.


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## rJames (Nov 24, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Mon Nov 24 said:


> I guess I'm one of those sheep. I align with conservative views, but I don't put my trust in a Democrat or Republican government.



This response is really not directed at Michael but is an opportune time to say that this is why having one house block funding the government i.e. threatening a shutdown to get their way is one more step in the wrong direction.

I think the idea was to use your vote (as a congressional caucus) to leverage things towards what you want. As the compromise is met, the ship of state balances away from too liberal policies and too conservative policies.

If the congress blocks all action until one faction gets what it wants, our government is doomed.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 24, 2014)

> Yes yes, I know. They are stupid moron imbecilic crackers, every one of them, and they're wrong. Not one Republican has a brain in their head and they're all pure evil and morons. Did I mention they were all stupid?



Sad but true. Partly, anyway.

Their base is moron imbecilic crackers. Those are the ones they rile up into an idiot frenzy. It costs a lot of money to do that, of course, but it's worth it to get legislation passed that makes them lots more money in the short term.

So they're not all stupid moron imbeciles, but they corral those people for a living.




> I was worried about Nick going senile first out of all us older residents in this mental institute. But that said, I get like that about liberals in this country.



Adrian, I'm 58 years old and still very much at the top of my game. I wish it were possible to write off what I say about the Republican party as the rantings of a senile old man.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 24, 2014)

Larry, there's a forum for people with the same motorscooter I have - maintenance, upgrades, etc.

This is an example of what I'm talking about:



> You sure don't live on the boarder or own land on their major routes north. They take what they want, breaking into homes, barns, cars to get it. Kill sheep, goats, cattle, take horses, wreck farms. Yes they do harm and it cost those of us who live here lots.



Get it?


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## chimuelo (Nov 24, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Nov 24 said:


> > And you sir are just conforming to the "government can't be trusted" sheep.



Indeed I am, even though many life long public service folks on State and Federal levels actually serve, it's the ones in DC who surround themselves with staffers as a form of insulation, so when their lies are revealed can not be held accountable.

So only a fool would believe such liars.

OTOH, I understand the lies, which is why I sympathize with those who still worship elites for their treats that never seem to come.
Dr. Gruber was right about stupid voters, and most folks knew this but wanted a single payer system, they knew that too, but there wasn't a benefit for them, so we got ACA which is written so both parties can join in the shakedown of tax payers and Big Insurance for campaign "contributions."

End result, most middle class folks still pay hundreds more than before, when it easily could have been double the deductions on payroll for Medicare.
That Tax would have been welcomed, but now we get more middlemen, Liberal liars like Gruber making millions and laughing, so of course I do not trust these people, but I know they are really capitalists as the greed for cash demonstrates, so at least that's comforting knowing they are predictable and bribes can easily set them aside.

Just admit it Jay, so many of us here are of a superior intellect, we are gifted musicians, most without a job, but we got things figured out.... o-[][]-o


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 24, 2014)

Chim, if I actually believed it was the way you describe it I could not continue to live here.


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## AC986 (Nov 24, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Nov 24 said:


> Chim, if I actually believed it was the way you describe it I could not continue to live here.



Where would you go? :lol: :lol:


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## NYC Composer (Nov 24, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Nov 24 said:


> Larry, there's a forum for people with the same motorscooter I have - maintenance, upgrades, etc.
> 
> This is an example of what I'm talking about:
> 
> ...



You have a motorscooter?

Actually, I have no friggin' idea what you're talking about.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 24, 2014)

Is it hard to understand? That guy's talking about illegal immigrants. He's the Republican base.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 24, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Nov 24 said:


> > Yes yes, I know. They are stupid moron imbecilic crackers, every one of them, and they're wrong. Not one Republican has a brain in their head and they're all pure evil and morons. Did I mention they were all stupid?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You really should run for office in Berkeley. There's no limit there to the outrageous insults you can foist on anyone who doesn't share your personal sense of unfailing rectitude.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 24, 2014)

Is that supposed to be an insult or something? Berkley, rectum, etc.?


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## NYC Composer (Nov 24, 2014)

You know, when it comes to epithets, I sorta buy the word "ignorant". Ignorant implies low information, uninformed, etc. "Stupid" or "moron" imply low IQ and an inability to learn. Calling 40% of the country stupid or moronic is not only rude and ineffective, it's probably demonstrably wrong, and belongs in the emotional, ideological and uninformed camp.


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## chimuelo (Nov 24, 2014)

Larry, being a White Racist, 

What's your opinion of the Grand Jury decision made by other White Racists (including the Black people posing as White Racists) in the just now released Statement..?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 24, 2014)

How about "dipshit," Larry? Is that a better word?


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## KEnK (Nov 24, 2014)

chim-

you are hilarious.
That really made me laugh
/\~O


----------



## chimuelo (Nov 24, 2014)

Please.........stay seated.

You really should run for office KenK.
You got the lying part down pretty good..... 0oD 

Actually just now found out there's no indictment, that's incredibly offensive and bad news for my brotha's that live there.
I am 2 miles south of there every couple of weeks.
The Music Store I worked at as a kid in a giant shopping center (closed from the high crime rates) has a full parking lot of out of town groups with tents, etc.

They don't show this in the news, but if you're interested google Northland Shopping Center West Florissant Ave.
They actually outnumber the protestors.

I'm OK there, I know folks, and if I am not recognized, they figure I am cutting somebody's grass since I am a brown skinned white racist....


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## NYC Composer (Nov 24, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Nov 24 said:


> How about "dipshit," Larry? Is that a better word?



I'm sure it's an equivalent word for you. Nick, with the equivalent effectiveness in moving the country and the conversation forward.

Btw, yes, I saw the recent Maher episode. I can't tell you how pleased I am that you have been validated in your view that everyone who disagrees with you is moronic.

I was a major supporter of the Great Society initiatives. I still
think there are programs that were started then that were necessary and humanistic. I'm sure you agree. Now tell me which have failed miserably. Go ahead. Be a mensch. Be non- stupid. Tell me stuff I don't know- because I'm really sure you're smarter than me. I'm one of the stupid ones.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 24, 2014)

Actually you're missing the subtlety of my crudeness. There's a big difference between insulting dipshits and thinking that everyone who disagrees with me is moronic.

What Great Society programs have failed? Am I supposed to say that we still have poverty therefore the war on poverty failed? People are still uneducated therefore the education initiatives failed? Etc.?

I'm not sure what you're getting at.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 24, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Nov 25 said:


> Actually you're missing the subtlety of my crudeness. There's a big difference between insulting dipshits and thinking that everyone who disagrees with me is moronic.
> 
> What Great Society programs have failed? Am I supposed to say that we still have poverty therefore the war on poverty failed? People are still uneducated therefore the education initiatives failed? Etc.?
> 
> I'm not sure what you're getting at.



You're so right-I'm missing the "subtlety" of your broad ranging and insulting crudeness.

Here's what I'm getting at-poverty has gotten worse by practically any measure.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 24, 2014)

Right, but that has little to do with the Great Society, it has to do with income rising to the top.

And it got a lot worse during the Great Recession. People at the bottom always get hit the hardest.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 24, 2014)

And by the way, it's time to stop scolding me for insulting Republicans. You've made your point, I truly don't care if you don't like it, and you're arguing with the wrong person.


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## AC986 (Nov 25, 2014)

What happened in Ferguson? That happened here in London 3 years ago and they torched the place. Awesome!


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## NYC Composer (Nov 25, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Nov 25 said:


> And by the way, it's time to stop scolding me for insulting Republicans. You've made your point, I truly don't care if you don't like it, and you're arguing with the wrong person.



In which case (to go on with the childishness) why would I care whether you care? In what way am I "arguing with the wrong person"? Why should I stop making comments here, on a forum I belong to and support, on the Interweb.... about whatever the fuck I care to? You certainly don't seem to feel constrained by any particular civil conventions.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 25, 2014)

adriancook @ Tue Nov 25 said:


> What happened in Ferguson? That happened here in London 3 years ago and they torched the place. Awesome!



Did they torch yours, Adrian? C'mon, man.


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## AC986 (Nov 25, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Tue Nov 25 said:


> adriancook @ Tue Nov 25 said:
> 
> 
> > What happened in Ferguson? That happened here in London 3 years ago and they torched the place. Awesome!
> ...



Did the people that torched Ferguson torch their own places, or did they just torch other people's property on a random basis even though they were completely unrelated in anyway to any inccidents?


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## NYC Composer (Nov 25, 2014)

adriancook @ Tue Nov 25 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue Nov 25 said:
> 
> 
> > adriancook @ Tue Nov 25 said:
> ...



It was the "awesome" thing.


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## chimuelo (Nov 25, 2014)

As long as they can rebuild and nobody gets hurt.
Mostly locally owned businesses were burnt down in Ferguson.
All the shots fired appeared to be instigators hoping to draw fire from Police, who were more worried about protecting Firefighters.

The reason it's hard for good people to get out of the Great Society Neighborhoods was demonstrated last night.
The people who work for a living and own property there are the ones hurt the most.
They have worked all of their lives to escape the crime areas, but Section 8 housing, part of the Great Society, owned by slumlords like the Chicago Gangsters that fund local politicians, purposely build further out into lower Crime Zones as it brings down the value of homes close by, then they start buying up property and build in the opposite direction, making the value of the area plummet.
It's really tragic that these "Experts" in real estate got the game down pat.
They now collect millions in subsidies from tax payers as that is considered a great source of income.
Insurance is very cheap since the Feds also are in that racket now too.

My Guitarist paid his home off years ago when TWA went under the Axe, and figured he could have a nice lump sum when he decides to retire.
His home before this tragic nonsense was only 38,000 USD.

This is what I mean when I say it's so hard to get out of the Great Society, and so easy to fail.
M. Brown was a thug, a bully and basically a menace to the community, but if locals would serve their own community I bet a black cop would have made him return the Cigars and let the kid slide.
But a white cop working in that area is very dangerous, and we see how this community needs to step up and take care of their streets or such events will continue.

This is why these "Great Society" programs are so destructive, it's not the welfare or EBT Cards, it's the huge profits made by outsiders, usually gangsters that tweak local laws to their advantage.
A true Liberal politician would know this and try to fight to change this, but campaign contributions pour in from the profiteers so the politicians are left with the choice of being unfunded or funded.

FWIW, we could see the protestors comprised of around 4-500 people, many white racists were involved too.
Sure there were many outside groups there, they will keep this alive as they fund the events and organize them, yet never get involved by protesting.
The real shit disturbers here are the Media IMHO.
They have a huge presence here, so when they leave maybe the Reverends can come in as usual and bring calm to the situation, justifying their lucrative positions in the civil rights industry they profit so dearly from. o[])


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## KEnK (Nov 25, 2014)

chimuelo @ Mon Nov 24 said:


> You really should run for office KenK.
> You got the lying part down pretty good..... 0oD


ooooh... I'm hurt o 
but thanks (i think...) :?


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## chimuelo (Nov 25, 2014)

Oooops, I was distracted by wealth redistribution amongst Liberals and their friends again, sorry.

Back to the immigrants.
We should have Federal Programs designed like the ones where the Government gives away 7/11s to Indians and Iranians who pay no taxes for 5 years, then transfer the business over to their brother, and so on and so on, and let the Mexican immigrants in on this tax payer scam.
Go to any local Tobacco store where rolling papers, cigs and Swisher Sweets are sold.
They are a great service to the community.

Also for those who can retain information longer than the next NYTimes headline, watch to see who rebuild Ferguson in the coming weeks.
If the media doesn't show this, google it or better yet since I go there every 2 weeks I will take some pictures.

The Mexican immigrants will build this back up.
They will certainly have some disdain for the people who did this, but at least someone can take credit for job creation and infrastructure building.


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## snowleopard (Nov 26, 2014)

The Onion nails it: 

"FERGUSON, MO—Ahead of a grand jury’s decision over whether to indict officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of unarmed black teenager Michael Brown, police in the city of Ferguson have reportedly heavily increased their presence this week to ensure residents are adequately provoked. “We’ve deployed additional officers throughout Ferguson in order to make absolutely certain that residents feel sufficiently harassed and intimidated,” said St. Louis County police chief Jon Belmar, assuring locals that officers in full riot gear will be on hand to inflame members of the community for as long as is necessary. “It’s absolutely essential that the people of Ferguson have full confidence that law enforcement is committed to antagonizing them every step of the way.” At press time, the Missouri National Guard was on standby with tanks and urban assault vehicles in case Ferguson residents required additional incitement."

http://www.theonion.com/articles/heavy- ... ide,37528/


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 26, 2014)

What does that have to do with immigration?


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## NYC Composer (Nov 26, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Wed Nov 26 said:


> What does that have to do with immigration?



Michael- what would be your immigration legislation? How would you write law concerning people already here? Past them and going forward, do you support a special status foreign worker plan?


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 26, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Wed Nov 26 said:


> Michael K. Bain @ Wed Nov 26 said:
> 
> 
> > What does that have to do with immigration?
> ...



To be honest, the reason I am most riled by the executive order is because I believe it was an illegal act perpetrated by a president who only cares about getting his agenda passed, even at the expense of the law.

I also keep thinking about the legal immigrants, and how much effort and money they put into their legal status. And it doesn't quite seem right for these illegals to benefit so greatly in lieu of that. But to be honest, Jesus told a parable that I believe shows my attitude about this to not be so great. Matthew 20:1-16

I'd have to read much more about it, but the truth is that if I knew for a fact that the work permits aspect won't taking needed jobs from the citizens and legal immigrants, I might not think it was a bad thing, if not done by the president alone.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 26, 2014)

Deleted- wrong thread!


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 26, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Wed Nov 26 said:


> To be honest, the reason I am most riled by the executive order is because I believe it was an illegal act perpetrated by a president who only cares about getting his agenda passed, even at the expense of the law.
> 
> .



That's what they said about Jefferson with the Louisiana Purchase; that's what they said about Lincoln with the Emancipation Proclamation, just to name two.


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## chimuelo (Nov 26, 2014)

Well on another note, when everyone says a prayer or gives thanks for having the good life, and great family gathering with great food this Thanksgiving, ask yourself who harvested the food. 
Says thanks to them too.

Just got done making the dressing...  
Onions and Celery sautéed in California Olive Oil, the very best in the world.
1 loaf of purposely staled French Bread.
24 White Castle Cheeseburgers, no Pickles.
2 Cups of Swansons Chicken Broth.

Thanksgiving Felices a los pinche gringos.................. o-[][]-o


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 26, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Nov 26 said:


> Michael K. Bain @ Wed Nov 26 said:
> 
> 
> > To be honest, the reason I am most riled by the executive order is because I believe it was an illegal act perpetrated by a president who only cares about getting his agenda passed, even at the expense of the law.
> ...


Are you really comparing this Executive Order to the Emancipation Proclamation?


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 26, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Wed Nov 26 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Nov 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Michael K. Bain @ Wed Nov 26 said:
> ...



In terms of its alleged illegality, yes.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 26, 2014)

chimuelo @ Wed Nov 26 said:


> Well on another note, when everyone says a prayer or gives thanks for having the good life, and great family gathering with great food this Thanksgiving, ask yourself who harvested the food.
> Says thanks to them too.
> 
> Just got done making the dressing...
> ...



Big + 1 to this- Happy Thanksgiving to my countrymen, and good health and good fortune to all!


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## AC986 (Nov 27, 2014)

Isn't Thanksgiving about getting rid of British rule? Hmmm.

Today, we learned that immigration here had risen year on year by 80,000 to 260,000. This is going to be curtains for Cameron. The big UK story of the next few weeks by the look of it. He's in really big trouble already.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 27, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Nov 27 said:


> Isn't Thanksgiving about getting rid of British rule? Hmmm.
> 
> Today, we learned that immigration here had risen year on year by 80,000 to 260,000. This is going to be curtains for Cameron. The big UK story of the next few weeks by the look of it. He's in really big trouble already.



No, that is Independence day. Thanksgiving is about the Pilgrims surviving their first harsh U.S winter with the aid of Native Americans, who did not mind that the Pilgrims were immigrants. Or that they stank


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## AC986 (Nov 27, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Nov 27 said:


> adriancook @ Thu Nov 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't Thanksgiving about getting rid of British rule? Hmmm.
> ...



Ah yes of course Jay. Those are the people sent over in a boat from Plymouth that they hoped would drown on the way. Funny how things work out.

Are you boys over there still speaking a form English?


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 27, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Nov 27 said:


> Are you boys over there still speaking a form English?



More so than people from the land down under


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## gsilbers (Nov 27, 2014)

i want to point out that repblicans didnt seem to mind that much the immigration order obama made. 
they seemed to be happy as they got what the corporations wanted. more visas for "qualified" poeple. which only means cheaper labor for otherwise would go to expensive americans. cuz you just cant find american programmers who know how to do a invontory database or similar job. 
both sides got what they wanted - for their "sponsors"
but we sure forgot about all this with the ferguson events. which if it wanst for the media insistence then it would of been a big "who the fu k cares" issue. 
that media doing so much to instigate right after the executive order... hmmm conspiracy much?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 27, 2014)

> Thanksgiving is about the Pilgrims surviving their first harsh U.S winter with the aid of Native Americans, who did not mind that the Pilgrims were immigrants. Or that they stank Smile



I saw a Native American Indian comedian - forget his name - but he walked out and started his act:

"Every Thanksgiving the Indians get together and piss on Plymouth Rock."


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## AC986 (Nov 27, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Nov 27 said:


> > Thanksgiving is about the Pilgrims surviving their first harsh U.S winter with the aid of Native Americans, who did not mind that the Pilgrims were immigrants. Or that they stank Smile
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't blame them. Those Puritans were ghastly motherfuckers.


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