# Ergonomic improvements you have made in your studio.



## Macrawn (Mar 20, 2021)

I've spent a lot of $ on gear, instruments and so forth but this past year I've been working on ergonomics. 

I never really thought about it too much until I started getting some aches in certain parts of my body, like for example my arm, back even my neck. 

I never really researched ergonomics but I wish I'd planned things better from the start. 

Improvements I've made. Sounds stupid and obvious but my mouse is at the same level as my arm rest to the right of me and requires no reach at all. I've got a chair (Aeron) that actually kicks the armrest outward at a 45 degree angle and it just keeps my elbow in a nice spot if I'm using my mouse. It's reduced some of the aches in my wrist and elbow. I found that I was reaching and leaning at times which was causing issues in my arm which impacted my back too. 

I used to have 3 monitors. One for the mixer, edit screen and main track window. I reduced it to 2 monitors. I found that I just need the track and mix screen. The edit screen can just be pulled up when I want onto the main screen. I was turning my head too much. I found that I want everything directly in front of me whenever possible so I don't have to turn my head a lot. Just turning my head causes my whole body to kinda go with it and doing that over and over again every day was putting things out of balance. I'm thinking I should move my second screen and mount it above my primary screen instead of having it more to the left. Would cause me to look up a little more but that might be better than turning my head. Not sure on that yet. 

I built a custom desk that is an L shape. Now I have everything within a distance I don't have to reach for. I put my keyboard on a retractable track that I can pull out when I need it and my keyboard is also on rails. My typing keyboard sits under my midi controller keyboard at a comfortable level for typing perfectly lined up with my arm rests. The midi keyboard can be out at the same time and is higher and a little less ideal but I've found that I use the typing keyboard more than the midi keyboard so I prioritized that. 

I'm working on this but my work area is almost like a horseshoe. I've got basically a cooler on a box right now until I build something out of wood. I'd got some cupholders built in for my coffee and that's where my mouse pad sits to the right. The desk I made covers the front and left side. 

And of course the chair. I got a used Aeron chair for pretty cheap that is just like new, or certainly looks it. The value of a good chair goes without saying. The chair swivels so if I need to turn left or right I can just swivel instead of leaning. 

Some of this stuff sounds stupid I know, but I'm not a young chicken anymore and the repetitive movements, and leaning and reaching too much was causing actual real problems in my back. Of course standing up, moving, stretching and drinking waster often is important. 

What kinds of things have you done to improve the ergonomics of your set up?


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## JohnG (Mar 20, 2021)

I have changed my mouse back to right hand from left. Spent 10 years right, then about 10 left, now back. It's trivial at one level but does help with the wrists. 

New mouse also has flexible angle so you can vary it a bit. Besides at its highest angle it keeps your hand in a more natural position: Logitech MX Ergo


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## Niah2 (Mar 20, 2021)

JohnG said:


> I have changed my mouse back to right hand from left. Spent 10 years right, then about 10 left, now back. It's trivial at one level but does help with the wrists.
> 
> New mouse also has flexible angle so you can vary it a bit. Besides at its highest angle it keeps your hand in a more natural position: Logitech MX Ergo


Great tip ! I have been feeling a little pain on my right wrist because of my mouse usage. Also I might look into to getting a more ergonomic mouse.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 20, 2021)

JohnG said:


> I have changed my mouse back to right hand from left. Spent 10 years right, then about 10 left, now back. It's trivial at one level but does help with the wrists.
> 
> New mouse also has flexible angle so you can vary it a bit. Besides at its highest angle it keeps your hand in a more natural position: Logitech MX Ergo


I’m impressed you could use the mouse effectively with either hand!


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## TomislavEP (Mar 20, 2021)

Last year, I've finally found an almost perfect chair for me: Ikea Jarvfjallet. Never before I had such a comfortable seat that is also disciplining my troublesome spine at the same time. I must mention that I exercise daily, though. Before the pandemic, I used to go to the gym at least twice a week.

I've opted for a model without the armrests as I occasionally work with various guitars as well. However, I sometimes do miss them when doing a lot of editing. Speaking of which, I'll probably need to change my current Logitech mouse ASAP and get something more serious like MX Master 3.

Hopefully, I will be also able to change the desk itself in the future and get the one that has a big enough drawer for my 61-keys controller - currently, I have it on top of the desk below the screen. I'm keeping my 88-keys controller to the right of the desk and the other synths on the left and at the back.


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## chillbot (Mar 20, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I’m impressed you could use the mouse effectively with either hand!


If you forced yourself to do it for a week you wouldn't even think about it. No reason only to have one mouse though! I have two (left, right) and switch off often, it's especially handy if you are playing on the keyboard with one hand to have the other hand free to mouse.

EDIT: Oh and you can click the mouse with your foot instead of your fingers.

Vertical mice are also a godsend to me. Also if you search this forum for "ergorests" they are the single best and most important move I've ever made, moreso even than chair or desk.


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## zach.mx (Mar 20, 2021)

TomislavEP said:


> Last year, I've finally found an almost perfect chair for me: Ikea Jarvfjallet. Never before I had such a comfortable seat that is also disciplining my troublesome spine at the same time.


I've been using a Herman Miller Aeron for the last two years and I've recently started to find some gripes with it. I can definitely sit for long periods of time but I'm tall (6'1) and sort of want to find a chair with a little bit more depth so that my weight is distributed a little bit more. I find that my butt gets sore after really long sessions of working since my weight gets really concentrated into one spot. I also want to find a chair that has lift-able arm rests. I haven't really looked into it much, but it's something that I started actively thinking about the past two weeks. 

So if anyone has any recommendations of good chairs, I'd love to check some out!

Also, another ergonomic thing I did at the beginning of the pandemic was build a custom desk with a piano drawer. It was such a good move, and super happy with how it turned out. I will also probably be doing another iteration of it in the next couple months to make a Mk2 version that is the same design but with a standing desk base.


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## JohnG (Mar 20, 2021)

Niah2 said:


> Great tip ! I have been feeling a little pain on my right wrist because of my mouse usage. Also I might look into to getting a more ergonomic mouse.


I use an Evoluent left-handed vertical mouse for the left, and the Logitech MX Ergo for the right, which is about 30-40 degrees vertical. Both help a lot.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 20, 2021)

JohnG said:


> I have changed my mouse back to right hand from left. Spent 10 years right, then about 10 left, now back. It's trivial at one level but does help with the wrists.
> 
> New mouse also has flexible angle so you can vary it a bit. Besides at its highest angle it keeps your hand in a more natural position: Logitech MX Ergo



I switched to left handed track-ball years ago and never looked back. I was having a ton of tendinitis problems in my right hand...hasn't bothered me in years since switching to left-hand, and in my case I'm using the trackball too. I am by no means ambidextrous, but I was able to adapt pretty easily. In very unusual cases, I might reach over with my right hand, like 2 times a year, to do some little thing that requires a bit more finesse, really rare though...


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## Bakhtin (Mar 20, 2021)

Great topic!

I've been working on the same issues. Due to eyesight, got glasses specific to studio, and moved screen much lower to reduce strain on neck. Also replaced mouse with trackball, and added a Wacom pen display that I mostly use for piano roll and plug ins, but can use it for everything when I want to. Made a desk with sliding shelf to bring desktop to me so I don't have to reach out and then look up too much. Basic set up is a horseshoe shape, with everything within more or less within reach. Trying to find balance between too much movement and not enough.

So far my studio is so much more comfortable and enjoyable to work in.


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## GNP (Mar 20, 2021)

Eversince I closed the cover of my Doepfer keyboard (parked into the desk) and used it as a leg rest, I've never looked back. Best ergonomic leg rest ever.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 20, 2021)

For me, I finally transitioned to the keyboard under the desk setup and the M-Audio Keystation 88 has low enough depth that it doesn't make my desktop surface too high (usually the problem for every fully weighted controller I tried). I also managed to get everything setup so that I'm not reaching over the keys to such an extent that using my computer keyboard and mouse strain my back. I'm still not 100% convinced this is better than a smaller 61 key controller on the desk itself right in front of me, but nice to have an 88 key controller and my Softube Console 1+Fader on the desk in front of me.


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## el-bo (Mar 20, 2021)

Switched Apple Magic Trackpad to left-hand so that my Wacom tablet is not as far a reach for my right.
Everything is well laid out in front of me, although my second keyboard (Roli) is not as close as I'd like (Still not far enough to cause any issues, though). Could do with lifting the screen up by another couple of centimetres, so will look for something to sit the monitor on.

However, the best change I've made is getting rid of chairs and moving to a floor-seated setup. My studio 'chair' is a meditation cushion  I also game and do general internet stuff in the same position, so can be seated for many hours a day. But it's active sitting, which has made a huge difference.
It's been over three years and can't imagine going back to sitting in chairs when I don't have to. Also have a standing desk, which I used to use for a studio and probably will set up aa a mobile music station.


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## John Longley (Mar 20, 2021)

JohnG said:


> I use an Evoluent left-handed vertical mouse for the left, and the Logitech MX Ergo for the right, which is about 30-40 degrees vertical. Both help a lot.


The MX Master totally alleviated my hand cramping. Very helpful.


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## Rob Elliott (Mar 20, 2021)

The Ergo mouse looks good. Has anyone picked up the matching querty keyboard as well (my cooler closet is a bit away from my desk and have to run usb with receiver to desk (I need both mouse and querty to connect together on that receiver.)



bundled mouse and querty


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## Bakhtin (Mar 20, 2021)

> el-bo said:
> 
> 
> > However, the best change I've made is getting rid of chairs and moving to a floor-seated setup. My studio 'chair' is a meditation cushion  I also game and do general internet stuff in the same position, so can be seated for many hours a day. But it's active sitting, which has made a huge difference.
> ...


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 20, 2021)

I put an NI M32 mini key thing on the desktop for programming, orchestral stuff etc. So comfortable.

The ‘88 is still under the desk, but now only used when actually needed.

Also: Sweat bands make a good wrist support.


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## charlieclouser (Mar 20, 2021)

Best thing I ever did was to sink my Kensington Expert Mouse trackball into the desk, by cutting a hole in the desk surface and sinking the back edge of the trackball down by about an inch and a half. I had used an SSL Duality console which had an OEM version of the Kensington mounted flat and flush, without the factory enclosure, and it was a revelation on my wrist.

Can't deal with a mouse, hate the trackpad, Expert Mouse for life! 

(I have a dozen or so in stock so I'll have enough to last until the dirt nap.)


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## twincities (Mar 20, 2021)

zach.mx said:


> I can definitely sit for long periods of time but I'm tall (6'1) and sort of want to find a chair with a little bit more depth so that my weight is distributed a little bit more.


i'm 6'4" and went with the "size c" model of the aeron. fixed that exact issue for me.


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## TiagoG (Mar 21, 2021)

Macrawn said:


> Improvements I've made. Sounds stupid and obvious but my mouse is at the same level as my arm rest to the right of me and requires no reach at all. I've got a chair (Aeron) that actually kicks the armrest outward at a 45 degree angle and it just keeps my elbow in a nice spot if I'm using my mouse. It's reduced some of the aches in my wrist and elbow. I found that I was reaching and leaning at times which was causing issues in my arm which impacted my back too.





chillbot said:


> Also if you search this forum for "ergorests" they are the single best and most important move I've ever made, moreso even than chair or desk.


I’m wanting to buy a nice ergo track ball style mouse but the armrest position in relation to the desk is problematic. See pic below to explain.

The ergorest sounded great but as you can see, it wouldn’t help me because of the 88 key keyboard and the fact that the chair is too far from the desk.

Is there something similar that attaches to the armchair itself perhaps, as opposed to the desk?


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## muk (Mar 21, 2021)

The top of my desk is slightly higher than usual because I have a digital piano underneath. Using the mouse on the desktop gets tiring after a few hours. So I am using a mousepad that can be strapped on the armrest of my chair:



https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61F3eG3RQRL._AC_SL1001_.jpg



Comfortable and convenient.


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## TomislavEP (Mar 21, 2021)

zach.mx said:


> So if anyone has any recommendations of good chairs, I'd love to check some out!


It's really difficult to give a recommendation to someone as every person has different traits and requirements. But I would probably suggest everyone trying out Ikea Jarvfjallet. I've found out about this chair thanks to the article at MusicRadar which lists this as the optimal choice for studio work. What I particularly like is the higher backrest than usual as well as the adjustable headrest and lumbar support. The seat itself is also very comfortable, at least to me. Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to work for everyone. But it has (IMO) a nice balance of features.



John Longley said:


> The MX Master totally alleviated my hand cramping. Very helpful.


That is exactly what I'm hoping for, once I get my hands on it. Currently, I'm using Logitech MX 705. I'm always "on a budget", but I feel that I've made quite a mistake by not going straight to the MX Master in this case.


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## TiagoG (Mar 21, 2021)

muk said:


> The top of my desk is slightly higher than usual because I have a digital piano underneath. Using the mouse on the desktop gets tiring after a few hours. So I am using a mousepad that can be strapped on the armrest of my chair:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Think this is exactly what I am looking for. Is the memory foam wrist support removable? I wonder if it gets in the way of the MX ergo.


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## CATDAD (Mar 21, 2021)

Recently bought my first non-mouse pointing device, Kensington Slimblade trackball! Above all else I enjoy it because it allows me to control it with my fingers, with my thumb if my fingers need a break or my wrist wants to be less pronated, and I can swap left/right to distribute the effort to both hands if needed. The learning curve for both the new input style and using my left hand has been easier than expected. 

...It also makes me feel like a wizard with a magic audio orb, which may be more important than saving my wrists and hands.


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## el-bo (Mar 21, 2021)

> Very cool - do you have pictures?


@Bakhtin 

Here you go:


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## muk (Mar 21, 2021)

TiagoG said:


> Think this is exactly what I am looking for. Is the memory foam wrist support removable?


Not in the model that I use. I don't know if there are models without the foam pad.



TiagoG said:


> I wonder if it gets in the way of the MX ergo.


You'd probably have to try to know. The foam is 2cm high, and it compresses very little when my arm rests on it.


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## el-bo (Mar 21, 2021)

CATDAD said:


> It also makes me feel like a wizard with a magic audio orb, which may be more important than saving my wrists and hands.


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## CT (Mar 21, 2021)

el-bo said:


> @Bakhtin
> 
> Here you go:


Man I have thought about doing this exact thing but worry it'll feel awkward to play properly. Do you use a sustain pedal?


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## CATDAD (Mar 21, 2021)

@el-bo I am loving that floor setup. Save so much money on spending a billion dollars to buy a chair that still won't provide better hip/back health than freely sitting on the ground! Those cans creating levels on your desk speaks to me in a way I cannot describe, and I may need to steal the idea...

The tablet as a control device was something I considered, and for some it would probably be the most ergonomic-for-ease-of-use pointer, but I have a terrible habit of death-gripping my pens/pencils and I'd rather not go back to having to endure such trials!


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## el-bo (Mar 21, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Man I have thought about doing this exact thing but worry it'll feel awkward to play properly. Do you use a sustain pedal?


Yeah! It's proper ghetto, though  






What I did was cut a few pieces of polystyrene to the shape of the pedal and stacked them before taping them up. This gives enough height that when I sit cross-legged I can wedge it under my right knee, or when i have my legs stretched out it sits under/behind my knee.

If you do want to try it I'd recommend starting really slowly, and preferably practicing with a little setup that you can use without having to change what you're currently doing. You'll also need to pay more mind to the ergonomics in terms of heights etc. as these little things can accumulate quite quickly when you have no artificial support.

I could give more tips if you're interested.

Ultimately, I think that if done the right way it will help mitigate all the problems that might arise from postural support to external devices. But if done wrong would probably cause problems.


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## el-bo (Mar 21, 2021)

CATDAD said:


> @el-bo I am loving that floor setup. Save so much money on spending a billion dollars to buy a chair that still won't provide better hip/back health than freely sitting on the ground! Those cans creating levels on your desk speaks to me in a way I cannot describe, and I may need to steal the idea...


I only got as far as spending about 70 euros on a chair, so didn't get into the luxury end of the market. Ended up giving away the chair. And creating the levels took a bit of working out and the cans have changed depending on my setup changes. Currently I have small cans of tinned peas for the first level, with even smaller cans of roasted peppers for the higher shelf 



CATDAD said:


> The tablet as a control device was something I considered, and for some it would probably be the most ergonomic-for-ease-of-use pointer, but I have a terrible habit of death-gripping my pens/pencils and I'd rather not go back to having to endure such trials!


After having both wrists operated on for carpal-tunnel, I became really sensitive to how I use different controllers etc. Mice are a no-go. The Kensington Expert trackball was a good first step, but ultimately failed due to the constant pronation. Tried various vertical mice before getting my first Wacom (Circa 2009). This is my third model. Honestly, couldn't do without it. The trackpad is good for it's gestures and for small adjustments when picking up the pen feels a bit too inconvenient.

The death-grip is something that probably wouldn't be too hard to sort out, if you really wanted to do so.


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## Rob Elliott (Mar 21, 2021)

muk said:


> The top of my desk is slightly higher than usual because I have a digital piano underneath. Using the mouse on the desktop gets tiring after a few hours. So I am using a mousepad that can be strapped on the armrest of my chair:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is this the one. Love this idea. Work with an Aeron?


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## Rob Elliott (Mar 21, 2021)

The one above looks kinda cheap. Does anyone have this one?


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## Macrawn (Mar 21, 2021)

A lot of people are endorsing trackballs. I never really considered one before. 

I sorta thought that instead of the wrist having problems you might get issues in the thumb. I take it people still find it a lot better. I also noticed that if I set my arm down it is definitely more natural to have like a 45 degree angle to it like that logitech mouse has. I might give that mouse a try.


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## muk (Mar 21, 2021)

Rob Elliott said:


> Is this the one. Love this idea. Work with an Aeron?




It looks the same, but mine is by a company called 'General Office'. It was around 20 bucks, so really inexpensive.


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## Rob Elliott (Mar 21, 2021)

muk said:


> It looks the same, but mine is by a company called 'General Office'. It was around 20 bucks, so really inexpensive.


Thanks a bunch. And yours doesn't bend or deflect much? I think the second link I give above seems a bit more robust.


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## clisma (Mar 21, 2021)

el-bo said:


> However, the best change I've made is getting rid of chairs and moving to a floor-seated setup. My studio 'chair' is a meditation cushion


I’d like to know more about this; how does it work with height and instruments/mixing surfaces, etc.

Edit: nevermind, saw the pics above.


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## muk (Mar 21, 2021)

Rob Elliott said:


> Thanks a bunch. And yours doesn't bend or deflect much? I think the second link I give above seems a bit more robust.



I'm sure you could bend it. For normal usage it's just fine though.


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## Markrs (Mar 21, 2021)

Ergonomics is more important to me than sample libraries or any other music related stuff to be honest. From the very start I tested things out to see how much strain they would cause and then look to customize things as best I could for comfort. Still have a long way to go. 

Happy to have chair, desks, etc recommendations, it really helps. Even though we are all different shapes and sizes, it does help to know what works for others.


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## Markrs (Mar 21, 2021)

Thinking about getting a trackball to help with wrist pressure from using a mouse even though it is a good resting height. I am also looking at optimizing controllers and even touch screens to reduce mouse usage.

My biggest issue is the chair, which I will look to sort out once lockdown is over.


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## CATDAD (Mar 21, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Currently I have small cans of tinned peas for the first level, with even smaller cans of roasted peppers for the higher shelf


This may just be the first time I've thought of tinned peas as something desirable!


el-bo said:


> After having both wrists operated on for carpal-tunnel, I became really sensitive to how I use different controllers etc. Mice are a no-go. The Kensington Expert trackball was a good first step, but ultimately failed due to the constant pronation...
> 
> ...The death-grip is something that probably wouldn't be too hard to sort out, if you really wanted to do so.


Youch, if you've had both carpal tunnels operated on I would imagine even just resting your wrists while pronated could be painful over time! Moving to the pen must have been life-changing for you.


Markrs said:


> Thinking about getting a trackball to help with wrist pressure from using a mouse even though it is a good resting height. I am also looking at optimizing controllers and even touch screens to reduce mouse usage.
> 
> My biggest issue is the chair, which I will look to sort out once lockdown is over.


A caution about trackballs, the thumb ones _may_ cause irritation to your thumb tendon(for some people it seems to be an ideal solution though so give it a try, especially something like the MX Ergo because it also reduces pronation of the wrist like a vertical mouse), and it can be tough to reduce bending at the wrist with the larger finger balls depending on how you use it and have it set up. For wrist pressure, a vertical mouse is something to consider as well. But a standard mouse is truly one of the least ergonomic options and does everything wrong to your hands so get exploring!


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## el-bo (Mar 21, 2021)

CATDAD said:


> This may just be the first time I've thought of tinned peas as something desirable!


Exactly! They work much better as furniture than as food  



CATDAD said:


> Youch, if you've had both carpal tunnels operated on I would imagine even just resting your wrists while pronated could be painful over time! Moving to the pen must have been life-changing for you.


The pain after the operation was pretty short-lived. But while the surgery did sort out the specific symptoms of the CTS, it didn't really solve the underlying issues that bought it on. It seems that my hands are like my 'canary in the coal-mine' when it comes to assessing certain aspects of my health and fortunately they don't tolerate bad ergonomics long enough to allow further problems to accumulate.

Indeed, the Wacom has made a ton of difference. I honestly think that everybody should be using them


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## pkm (Mar 21, 2021)

zach.mx said:


> I've been using a Herman Miller Aeron for the last two years and I've recently started to find some gripes with it. I can definitely sit for long periods of time but I'm tall (6'1) and sort of want to find a chair with a little bit more depth so that my weight is distributed a little bit more. I find that my butt gets sore after really long sessions of working since my weight gets really concentrated into one spot. I also want to find a chair that has lift-able arm rests. I haven't really looked into it much, but it's something that I started actively thinking about the past two weeks.
> 
> So if anyone has any recommendations of good chairs, I'd love to check some out!
> 
> Also, another ergonomic thing I did at the beginning of the pandemic was build a custom desk with a piano drawer. It was such a good move, and super happy with how it turned out. I will also probably be doing another iteration of it in the next couple months to make a Mk2 version that is the same design but with a standing desk base.


The Aeron never really worked for me either. After sitting on a bunch of chairs at the Steelcase showroom in DTLA, I ended up with the Steelcase Gesture and it's been wonderful.


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## tabulius (Mar 22, 2021)

Great discussion. When I was in my 20s, I could work long days pretty much everywhere, with no problems. Now when the strain has continued for years and years, I have also made sure to get the best ergonomics possible. What I have learned for testing all the products and trial and error, that not every great ergonomic product fits for all. I used the Aeron for many years, but I had to research something new because of lower back pains. So I went for Herman&Miller flagship Embody because all the reviews said it is this god-level chair for comfort and ergonomics. Nope - same thing. I tried all the settings but my lower back was in pain. I tried leaning chairs, standing desks etc. nothing helped.

But then I found a Varier Balans chair that helped me personally. It's expensive, but luckily I found a used one that was a different brand "Stokke". Stokke made the chair earlier and then I guess Varier bought the design. The great thing about this chair is when you lean forward all the strain is removed from the lower back. And this swinging chair encourages you to shift your seating position every now and then because your knees get tired after a while.






I also tried a number of mouse options and the trackball style of mouses were pretty good, but I did get wrist pain after long days. Another expensive but good purchase was RollerMouse. It goes in front of your keyboard and it is very comfortable to use. But that said, I wanted to try the Wacom and pen solution that many seem to love. It might be a very good solution and I'll test it out. If it feels awesome, then I have used RollerMouse Red Plus for sale 






The floor pillow setup looks very interesting and elegant! If I would have not invested so much in my custom studio desk, I would be intrigued to try it out.


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## Loïc D (Mar 22, 2021)

Along with a Haworth chair that I bought refurbished at a very cheap price last year, I’ve recently invested in... two Meychair EFS-93 foot rest.
They are insanely expensive but they are heavy and don’t slip under my feet, they are gas-spring operated very easy to set, you can make the plate lean, they are large so you are not stuck to one foot position.
It’s a very welcome addition.

I have to add that my desktop is quite high (76cm) and I am short sized (1.65m / 5’5") so foot rest is mandatory.


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## ThomasL (Mar 22, 2021)

Just recently got a Kensington Expert Mouse, think I'm going to love it. Driving it with SteerMouse and just love the key combinations possible.

Built my own desk, to my proportions/workflow/needs. So now I have a low desk and the Apple Cinema Display on top doesn't get to high up and strains my neck.

I moved the keyboard to the left and put a second screen + small keyboard + trackpad on there as well.

Also, taking frequent breaks and just getting up and walking around is something of a routine now.


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## charlieclouser (Mar 22, 2021)

I tried the SlimBlade (and most other alternatives like the Orbit, etc.) but I'm just so accustomed to the heavier weight of the ball in the Expert Mouse that I stuck with that model. I've been using it for about 30 years, since the beige ADB models, and so far I haven't experienced any wrist issues. For anyone who feels like the Slim Blade is just a little weird, try the Expert Mouse before you give up on trackballs entirely. The heavier weight of the ball allows you to "throw" the cursor across big and/or multiple monitors more easily. Back in the days when the sensors were little rollers I would put an actual billiard ball in there, and that was even heavier and worked great, but now the sensor is optical and relies on reading the little "sparkles" in the ball material so that's not an option anymore.

But the real key for me was to recess the housing into the desk, so it sits flush like on an SSL Duality console:






This greatly reduces wrist extension and helps keep the whole arm straight when working. Here's what it looks like on my rig with my elbow on the armrest of the Aeron at its highest position (pardon the plastic wrap on the racks, construction is going on):


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## JohnG (Mar 22, 2021)

Macrawn said:


> A lot of people are endorsing trackballs. I never really considered one before.
> 
> I sorta thought that instead of the wrist having problems you might get issues in the thumb.


I think the main discovery for me has been to change it up. I don't like "flat" trackballs at all because of the wrist position, but the main thing is to try to alter your setup periodically (how often? who knows?) so that the repetition doesn't build up indefinitely.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 22, 2021)

Macrawn said:


> A lot of people are endorsing trackballs. I never really considered one before.
> 
> I sorta thought that instead of the wrist having problems you might get issues in the thumb. I take it people still find it a lot better.



Like some others, I use the Kensington Expert Mouse. I like it for several reasons:


The ball is kind of large and has some reasonable weight which is easy to control


The rest pad is key, I totally use it!


The scroll wheel...awesome


With a mouse, you tend to use one finger a lot for pressing buttons...your index finger. You use it for right and left clicks and that is the finger that usually causes carpel tunnel and tendonitis issues for people. With this trackback ball you can setup the buttons however you want, I have the bottom left and bottom right buttons setup for most use, so I end up using my thumb for right click and pinky for left click. That alone cuts down a lot of stuff, but also something about the way its all sitting there its less of a motion then the typical index finger on a mouse. 


They make a wireless version too.


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## Rasoul Morteza (Mar 22, 2021)

This is all good, but a bit of wrist exercise and a few pushups daily will be very effective.


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## ThomasL (Mar 24, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> Like some others, I use the Kensington Expert Mouse. I like it for several reasons:
> 
> 
> The ball is kind of large and has some reasonable weight which is easy to control
> ...


I never got the KensingtonWorks to function properly on my system so I tried SteerMouse (Mac) and just wow! Not only can you have different setups for different apps but also different key combos for different apps. Control + scroll wheel = scroll position in song. Control + bottom left + upper right = show all tracks, control + upper right = play/pause in Studio One and play/pause in Tidal/Spotify and so on.


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## ckett (Mar 24, 2021)

Also check out apps like this one for your mouse or trackball with Steermouse that smooths the scrolling much like the Apple trackpad and mouse.






MOS | A lightweight tool used to smooth scrolling and set scroll direction independently for your mouse on MacOS







mos.caldis.me


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## el-bo (Mar 25, 2021)

tabulius said:


> I used the Aeron for many years, but I had to research something new because of lower back pains. So I went for Herman&Miller flagship Embody because all the reviews said it is this god-level chair for comfort and ergonomics. Nope - same thing. I tried all the settings but my lower back was in pain. I tried leaning chairs, standing desks etc. nothing helped.


No chair is really ever going to cure back problems, although moving from a really bad chair to a better one could definitely help. They might ameliorate symptoms for a while, but they can never get to the core (literally) of the problem.



tabulius said:


> But then I found a Varier Balans chair that helped me personally. It's expensive, but luckily I found a used one that was a different brand "Stokke". Stokke made the chair earlier and then I guess Varier bought the design. The great thing about this chair is when you lean forward all the strain is removed from the lower back. And this swinging chair encourages you to shift your seating position every now and then because your knees get tired after a while.


I'd imagine his would be an improvement, because there is no real support for the lumbar spine. This would encourage more active sitting (Similar to the floor-sitting idea), in which the sitter has to engage their own core muscles and spine to maintain good posture and stability.
The potential failing with this chair is that the angle of forward incline (anterior pelvic tilt) really throws out core alignment, forcing hyperextension of the lumbar region. Either that or the user ends up face-first in their laptop  

The same issues can be seen to a lesser or greater extent with the wearing of shoes with any type of raised heel.




tabulius said:


> I wanted to try the Wacom and pen solution that many seem to love. It might be a very good solution and I'll test it out. If it feels awesome, then I have used RollerMouse Red Plus for sale


Like anything, it'll take a while to get accustomed to using it. Full immersion probably works more quickly, but could be more frustrating than slowly incorporating it alongside what you already use.

I did write out some configuration tips for another member, a while back. If you decide to give it a try, I'll try to dig 'em out.



tabulius said:


> The floor pillow setup looks very interesting and elegant! If I would have not invested so much in my custom studio desk, I would be intrigued to try it out.


This is the third time I've tried using a floor setup in the last decade. On the first two attempts, i couldn't make it past the first few days of 'teething pains'. On the third attempt I just pushed through it. On that basis, I definitely wouldn't recommend those interest in trying it to uproot everything and dive straight in; rather, it'd be better to incorporate a sitting station into one's life. Part of the key to making this work is an awareness of one's own posture and alignment. It needn't be a scientific understanding, but being able to quickly detect and correct for slumping, overextension etc. will help immensely.


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## tabulius (Mar 25, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Like anything, it'll take a while to get accustomed to using it. Full immersion probably works more quickly, but could be more frustrating than slowly incorporating it alongside what you already use.
> 
> I did write out some configuration tips for another member, a while back. If you decide to give it a try, I'll try to dig 'em out.


I wonder what those tips are? I have been using the Wacom for few days and still getting used to it. I found out that a second "spare mouse" is needed, because sometimes in some programs and situations the pen doesn't work as it should. Also, I found out that Studio One has removed the middle mouse button navigation, which would have been super helpful with a pen. Now I've been testing this crazy keyboard where I can place the Wacom tablet between the keyboard.


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## el-bo (Mar 25, 2021)

tabulius said:


> I wonder what those tips are? I have been using the Wacom for few days and still getting used to it. I found out that a second "spare mouse" is needed, because sometimes in some programs and situations the pen doesn't work as it should. Also, I found out that Studio One has removed the middle mouse button navigation, which would have been super helpful with a pen. Now I've been testing this crazy keyboard where I can place the Wacom tablet between the keyboard.



Interesting keyboard  Did look into these at one point, so curious how you're finding it/them. Also looked at ergonomic keyboards about ten years back. Similarly split, but conjoined and set up 'vertically'. Might look into that side of things again. Need to learn to touch-type first (My biggest ergonomic failure  )


As far as Wacom tips:

The biggest for me is to select 'Click & Tap', under 'Options'. Pretty sure it is set to 'Hover Click', straight out of the box. Try the other option if you want, but it never worked out well for me.

I assign one of the pen buttons (Furthest from nib) to right-click and the button closest to the nib as a keyboard-modifier - I use Apple/Command, which works out well in Finder and within Logic (If you're on Windows or using a different DAW you might choose another option.

Under 'Mapping' I have the screen set to 'Full', but I only use a portion of the tablet. Defining a smaller tracking area will allow you to traverse more screen-estate with less wrist/arm movement. The tradeoff is that if you go too small, you risk losing some of the accuracy. Experiment to find your preferred state. You can always make the tracking space larger for more detailed work.

To define usable area, select 'Portion' under 'Tablet Area'. Then choose "Click to define tablet area". The area is set by first clicking the top-left corner of the boundary you wish to use, followed by the bottom-right corner.

Set the hot/express-keys as you wish.


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## ThomasL (Mar 25, 2021)

ckett said:


> Also check out apps like this one for your mouse or trackball with Steermouse that smooths the scrolling much like the Apple trackpad and mouse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for this! Never knew scrolling could be so smooth!


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## Niah2 (Jul 6, 2021)

I have a question for the users of the kensington expert mouse trackball. How easy is to edit midi expression curves? I usually record everything with my midi keyboard and mod wheel but then edit with my mouse to smooth some things. I understand that there is always a learning curve when you switch how was the experience for you coming from a "normal" mouse use?

Thank you


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## CATDAD (Jul 6, 2021)

Niah2 said:


> I have a question for the users of the kensington expert mouse trackball. How easy is to edit midi expression curves? I usually record everything with my midi keyboard and mod wheel but then edit with my mouse to smooth some things. I understand that there is always a learning curve when you switch how was the experience for you coming from a "normal" mouse use?
> 
> Thank you


Not an Expert user, but a Slimblade user:

Definitely feels a little more "jumpy" to me, but that's coming from a nice gaming mouse that I have on a low DPI. If I really wanted to smooth it out I could lower the OS mouse sensitivity and it would likely solve that. If you go the trackball route, don't be afraid to adjust the sensitivity so it feels more comfortable for finer tasks!

I use the Slimblade on my left hand for general movements and still have the mouse on the right side for detailed operations like that, to split tasks between hands. Even if you didn't want to use the trackball on the left, you could still keep the mouse around for that particular purpose. (though you might run the risk of just going back to the mouse because it's right there, luckily my hand and wrist pain was great at guiding me away!)


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## Niah2 (Jul 6, 2021)

CATDAD said:


> Not an Expert user, but a Slimblade user:
> 
> Definitely feels a little more "jumpy" to me, but that's coming from a nice gaming mouse that I have on a low DPI. If I really wanted to smooth it out I could lower the OS mouse sensitivity and it would likely solve that. If you go the trackball route, don't be afraid to adjust the sensitivity so it feels more comfortable for finer tasks!
> 
> I use the Slimblade on my left hand for general movements and still have the mouse on the right side for detailed operations like that, to split tasks between hands. Even if you didn't want to use the trackball on the left, you could still keep the mouse around for that particular purpose. (though you might run the risk of just going back to the mouse because it's right there, luckily my hand and wrist pain was great at guiding me away!)


Hmm can you run two mice in the same computer at the same time?


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## CATDAD (Jul 6, 2021)

Niah2 said:


> Hmm can you run two mice in the same computer at the same time?


Yeah, as long as you have the USB ports for it! They just act as one device, sharing a single pointer. It's not too hard on desk space either since a trackball doesn't need any space beyond the device itself, and maybe a wrist rest if needed.

I think Kensington's extra trackball software can even adjust settings of the trackball without affecting other devices, but I haven't used it so I'm not totally sure. I try to avoid additional peripheral software if I can help it.


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## tebling (Jul 6, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Indeed, the Wacom has made a ton of difference. I honestly think that everybody should be using them


I switched from mouse to Wacom 13 years ago and have never looked back. It took about 3-4 weeks to fully make the adjustment, but it completely eliminated the beginnings of RSI pain. No pain whatsoever since then. The only downsides are 1) integration with Windows 10 isn't perfect, and 2) the desk footprint (I have a size L Pro).


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## Niah2 (Jul 6, 2021)

CATDAD said:


> Yeah, as long as you have the USB ports for it! They just act as one device, sharing a single pointer. It's not too hard on desk space either since a trackball doesn't need any space beyond the device itself, and maybe a wrist rest if needed.
> 
> I think Kensington's extra trackball software can even adjust settings of the trackball without affecting other devices, but I haven't used it so I'm not totally sure. I try to avoid additional peripheral software if I can help it.


Cool, thank you !


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## Niah2 (Jul 8, 2021)

So this is my first day with the kensington trackball and I am loving it. Editing midi expression curves is not a problem so far.

Really happy with this and it's very easy to switch to my left hand to give my right hand a break.


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## CATDAD (Jul 8, 2021)

Niah2 said:


> So this is my first day with the kensington trackball and I am loving it. Editing midi expression curves is not a problem so far.
> 
> Really happy with this and it's very easy to switch to my left hand to give my right hand a break.


Glad it worked out for you! The first week with it I found my hand got sore in some new ways as it adjusted (especially on my non-dominant left hand) but after a short adjustment period it was good to go. Everyone is different though and it might not be an issue.

Don't forget to wipe the little roller nubs on the inside once in awhile to keep it smooth, if you tend to sweat and/or have a dusty home you'll have to do it more often!


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## ckett (Jul 8, 2021)

If you are on a Mac also check out the application called MOS. It allows you to customize the scroll behavior per app. Also can setup smooth scrolling like using an Apple mouse or trackpad.


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## Marsen (Jul 30, 2021)

Question, regarding to the Kensington Expert Mouse:
Do you prefer the wireless or cabel version?

I'm on Mac, and do have problems with the magic mouse 2 (BT) - fast scrolling but very slow responses with cursor-movements, using for now a normal cable mouse ( not really happy with this too).

I wonder, wether a cable Expert Mouse operates more stable?


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## ckett (Jul 30, 2021)

Marsen said:


> Question, regarding to the Kensington Expert Mouse:
> Do you prefer the wireless or cabel version?
> 
> I'm on Mac, and do have problems with the magic mouse 2 (BT) - fast scrolling but very slow responses with cursor-movements, using for now a normal cable mouse ( not really happy with this too).
> ...


I prefer wired. Less problems.


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## muk (Jul 31, 2021)

The desk, the chair, and the position of the screen basically define your seating position(s). It pays off to spend some time researching how to set them up the best way for you. If you work with a keyboard a lot that's another factor.

Two things that improved ergonomics for me were a desk with a tabletop that slides over the keyboard. That way the keyboard and the tabletop both are useable in the blink of an eye. And both are in acceptable positions ergonomically.






The second thing is a mousepad that you can strap to the armrest of your chair. It's an idea that I copied from @Saxer. As the tabletop of my desk is a bit higher than usual - what with a digital piano underneath! - I often use the mouse on this mousepad. That way it is in an ideal position, and I only have to reach forward to type things:


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## Niah2 (Dec 11, 2021)

Niah2 said:


> So this is my first day with the kensington trackball and I am loving it. Editing midi expression curves is not a problem so far.
> 
> Really happy with this and it's very easy to switch to my left hand to give my right hand a break.


So after many months using the Kensingston trackball I've switch to the kensington trackball slimblade which was sold out when I got the first one. And so far I think I prefer this one. The first one has a tilt up that can cause some discomfort after prolonged use (I can see why Charlie Clouser made a hole in his table).


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## JohnG (Dec 11, 2021)




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## MPortmann (Dec 11, 2021)

After couple decades of using mouse, then trackball, then brachial plexus injury. Using my right hand has always involved some sort of pain at my DAW. Crippling at times. Stand up desk helped a lot, switching to trackpads, and for almost a year mainly using left hand, now I’m equal with L & R trackpads. BUT, this posture shirt has been the most effective for working at my DAW desk. I can’t work without it. And extra benefit it helps me eat less too. Physical therapist turned me onto it. Thought it was BS at first. It makes you sit up straight and pulls all shoulder, arm, neck, back in support and alignment with no effort. https://alignmed.com/products/posture-shirt-for-men-pullover


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## CATDAD (Dec 11, 2021)

Niah2 said:


> So after many months using the Kensingston trackball I've switch to the kensington trackball slimblade which was sold out when I got the first one. And so far I think I prefer this one. The first one has a tilt up that can cause some discomfort after prolonged use (I can see why Charlie Clouser made a hole in this table).


I also prefer the Slimblade for this reason! And I actually find the spinning scroll feels way more natural than on the Kensington Expert, though it seems to be highly dependant on the individual.


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## Niah2 (Dec 11, 2021)

CATDAD said:


> I also prefer the Slimblade for this reason! And I actually find the spinning scroll feels way more natural than on the Kensington Expert, though it seems to be highly dependant on the individual.


Oh yes, forgot to mention the spinning scroll so much better for me as well.


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## charlieclouser (Dec 11, 2021)

Niah2 said:


> So after many months using the Kensingston trackball I've switch to the kensington trackball slimblade which was sold out when I got the first one. And so far I think I prefer this one. The first one has a tilt up that can cause some discomfort after prolonged use (I can see why Charlie Clouser made a hole in this table).


Yes, the hole in the desk to recess the Expert Mouse so that it sits flush and flat was the single most important ergonomic improvement I've made in 30+ years of Kensington love. (I started with a beige one that connected to my Macintosh IIfx via ADB!). Well, that and the Aeron chair that I bought for full list price (around $1,500 I think) at an actual Herman Miller showroom soon after they first came out in 1994 - and that I still use daily since it is still in perfect condition 27 years later. I did purchase upgraded / replacement arm rests with leather instead of plastic on eBay though, great upgrade.

I was doing a session on an SSL Duality, which has an Expert Mouse built-in to the armrest, and it was a forehead-slapping moment for sure. As soon as I got home I broke out the saw, bits of 2x2 scrap lumber, and 3m Dual-Lock and got to work butchering my Argosy Dual-15k. That, and the gently-sloping and shallow top panel of the M-Audio Keystation 88es mk2 which acts as a wrist rest, and some very precise alignment to 1/8" tolerances, lets me work for countless hours with no wrist stress or pain. And my right wrist is seriously messed up after way too many hard falls on the half-pipe and decades of drumming in my youth - ten minutes of pushing a Dyson around the room results in more wrist fatigue and pain than ten hours of furious trackball action.

That's why I've stockpiled about a dozen Expert Mouse units in case they ever get discontinued.

Wired, by the way. And I don't use the little foam pad wrist rest that comes with it either.

Pro tip: If the movement of the ball ever feels stiff, grabby, or has a gritty feel, take the ball out and rub it around on your forehead. That tiny amount of organic grease is the best lubricant by far, and keeps the ball gliding on the little synthetic sapphire pins that it rests on. Sounds weird-slash-gross, I know. But I've tried a variety of substances to get the glide back after cleaning the ball, which always results in a stiff and gritty feel, and forehead grease is the way to go. I need to be able to "toss" the cursor across a pair of 4k displays with a single throw, and this does the trick every time.

I don't use the Kensington software or drivers, just the normal MacOS stuff in System Preferences.


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## Macrawn (Dec 12, 2021)

MPortmann said:


> After couple decades of using mouse, then trackball, then brachial plexus injury. Using my right hand has always involved some sort of pain at my DAW. Crippling at times. Stand up desk helped a lot, switching to trackpads, and for almost a year mainly using left hand, now I’m equal with L & R trackpads. BUT, this posture shirt has been the most effective for working at my DAW desk. I can’t work without it. And extra benefit it helps me eat less too. Physical therapist turned me onto it. Thought it was BS at first. It makes you sit up straight and pulls all shoulder, arm, neck, back in support and alignment with no effort. https://alignmed.com/products/posture-shirt-for-men-pullover


I really want to know about your experiences with that shirt. I've been developing some bad posture and the wife wants me to get one of those back things she saw on tv or something that's a strap and looks super uncomfortable. Seemed like a joke to me and I'd probably never wear it but the shirt does look appealing. Im kinda surprised to hear about the shirt. Looks bogus but if you say it works I might try it on Amazon since they have a free return. I've got nothing to lose giving it a try and the wife will be happy too.


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## MPortmann (Dec 12, 2021)

Macrawn said:


> I really want to know about your experiences with that shirt. I've been developing some bad posture and the wife wants me to get one of those back things she saw on tv or something that's a strap and looks super uncomfortable. Seemed like a joke to me and I'd probably never wear it but the shirt does look appealing. Im kinda surprised to hear about the shirt. Looks bogus but if you say it works I might try it on Amazon since they have a free return. I've got nothing to lose giving it a try and the wife will be happy too.


You can PM if you want. Alignmed also makes a vest that is even more supportive. My insurance covered it, as it’s pricey. It’s a bit uncomfortable for me to wear after couple hours. The shirt helped me. I can’t work without it now. Lessens the pain and aches a great deal for me. It’s important to get the correct size too. Hope it helps. I tried the back strap on thing from Relaxtheback store. Was hideous on the Aeron chair.


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## Niah2 (Dec 12, 2021)

Thank for the post @charlieclouser as always. I'll take that forehead trick and put it my bag because I now I will need it in the future.


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