# Synchron Pianos - Which is your favourite and why?



## jimjazzuk (Feb 10, 2021)

I want to treat myself to a highly realistic deep-sampled piano, and time and time again the VSL pianos come up as favourites on this forum.  I prefer a more intimate sound usually (My main preferences have gone: Piano In Blue --> Simple Sam Steinway) 

Which are your favourite Synchron pianos and why?

** If you can provide samples of you playing the pianos then you'll get bonus points! **


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## CGR (Feb 10, 2021)

If you're after a more intimate sound, don't overlook the older Vienna Imperial, which I have and is one of my all time favourite sampled pianos. It has a more controlled room sound being sampled on the VSL Silent Stage, and has Close, Player & Distant mic sets (although they can only be loaded one at a time in the GUI).

Also it has real Una Corda samples (unlike the Synchron pianos which have simulated Una Corda). Have you seen/heard this? You can really make a melody line sing with this piano:


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## CGR (Feb 10, 2021)

Also, a couple of other advantages:

1. You don't need a high end processor or SSD to run it
2. It's on promotion sale at present for $195

A few people have commented on some slight tuning issues in the upper register, but to me that just adds to it's charm & realism. Have a listen to some Oscar Peterson tracks of him playing a Bosendorfer 290 (eg. the live 'Exclusively for My Friends' recordings) - the piano is almost never in perfect tune, but sounds great. Then again, he WAS Oscar Peterson


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## ptram (Feb 10, 2021)

I‘ve personally chosen the Imperial, that I prefer for classical music. But it's not really intimate, as much as the 280 VC can. Using the close mics can, however, create a more introspective sound, that is still incredibly full, rich, resonant.

I second the hint about Vienna Imperial, still my to-go piano when wanting to start playing quick, with a responsive and realistic sounding piano. Of all the VSL pianos I also find this to be the most musical instrument: not too perfect, with a long career onstage, sounding very lively. Its only issue is the lack of half-pedaling, in a way compensated by the smooth ending of the pedal down sound.

Paolo


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## cfodeebiedaddy (Feb 10, 2021)

Their CFX is incredibly versatile. Clean and bright, but still with some warmth to it. Easier to control than some of the other Synchrons IMO. I absolutely love it (the Bluthner is the only one I have some regret about having bought).


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## Dietz (Feb 10, 2021)

My personal favourite is the Yamaha. I've mixed several productions already were this sampled piano delivered musicality and "realness" in the context of real orchestras, without the slightest hint of doubt.


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## re-peat (Feb 11, 2021)

I’ve bought two — the Steinway and the Yamaha CFX (full versions) — after which I quickly decided never to buy another one again.

I’m pretty much alone with this opinion, I know, but to my ears the Synchron pianos (certainly the two I have) are very poorly sampled — hard, quite thin, with a fatigueing sound and a very problematic midrange — and while the Synchron player software offers several tools to compensate for the samples’ most distracting weaknesses, it can only do so much. And that ‘so much’ is, I fear, nowhere near enough.

Besides — and this is my biggest gripe regarding the Synchron pianos — in a supposedly high-end product, I believe one shouldn’t have to resort to excessive EQ’ing and sample-shifting or other trickery before a piano starts to radiate some warmth and roundness of tone. A well-sampled piano ought to have those qualities by default, because they’re an intrinsic and defining part of the versatile and identity-rich being which a good grand piano is. If the capability for natural-sounding roundness of timbre is not present in the samples themselves, something went very wrong during the recordings. As, I believe, it did in Vienna.

It seems to me that the philosophy was to capture these instruments really bright and trebly, optimistically assuming that with some clever EQ’ing, it would surely be possible to bring out the rounder, warmer side of a grand piano as well, but it doesn’t work like that. (Strange that the Viennese Tonmeisters made such a basic engineering mistake.) Warmth arrived at through EQ’ing is totally different, and much inferior sounding, than (natural) warmth which was skillfully recorded. The Synchrons don’t contain the merest whiff of anything that suggests natural warmth and roundness of tone. Sure, these pianos can be made to sound round and warm, but … always at the expense of clarity, definition, detail and presence. It’s a blurry, muffled sort of warmth, a dull sort of roundness.
(Warmth in timbre or sound doesn’t exclude clarity, detail or definition. That’s, alas, a big and way too often occurring misconception in Sample Land and among library developers.)

And I mentioned the weak midrange because if you try to put any of the Synchrons in a full mix or arrangement, they tend to sort of dissolve. Very weird. I tried several pieces, in various styles, with a prominent piano part and despite having access to all the mic perspectives which the full version offers, both Synchrons proved near impossible to make ‘em sit well within the arrangement and the mix. And to my ears, it’s got something to do with that weak midrange. There seems to be something missing there which robs these instruments from their midrange weight and definition. I sometimes think that the Synchron Hall’s acoustic profile isn’t very well suited to pianos, though that’s just an uninformed guess on my part. But that how it sounds like anyway. (And I believe this problematic midrange is also the main reason for the absence of roundness in the timbre.) All in all, quite frustrating, I find.

I’m not suggesting the Synchron pianos are totally useless, obviously not — for certain stylings, they’re in fact not bad at all — but I am saying, firmly, that they fall well short of what high-quality sampled pianos should be able to deliver. Buying a Synchron piano, in my experience, is a bit like buying a box of quality oil paints but discovering, upon opening the box, that it only contains the bright, fully saturated colours. Yes, you can create other colours by mixing the included ones, but it’s never going to be the same as using a more comprehensive set of paints all of which were created with specific, pure, natural pigments.

So, I really can’t recommend the Synchrons. Especially not to you, Jim. I heard your ‘Paris’ piece which you posted in another thread and I immediately thought: the last virtual piano this music should be played on, is a Synchron piano.
(If you’re willing to share a fragment of that piece as a midi-file, I can render it for you with a handful of sampled pianos. I have a few. Might help to make your mind up about which library you should or shouldn’t purchase.)

_


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## slobajudge (Feb 11, 2021)

After I demoed all VSL Synchron pianos I still think that Vienna Imperial has more natural tone and quite different compare to Synchron pianos. Too bad that VSL didn`t update this piano.


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## ptram (Feb 11, 2021)

re-peat said:


> something went very wrong during the recordings. As, I believe, it did in Vienna.


I think it was a stylistic choice. It matches the rest of the Synchron and BBO series. Cold, bright, shiny. Honest with the real sound, but not matching an analog recording. It's like most new classical music records sound nowadays. I would expect these libraries to last for a long time, and get out of fashion later than others whose sound may catch our older ears more immediately.

Paolo


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## jimjazzuk (Feb 11, 2021)

re-peat said:


> I’ve bought two — the Steinway and the Yamaha CFX (full versions) — after which I quickly decided never to buy another one again.
> 
> I’m pretty much alone with this opinion, I know, but to my ears the Synchron pianos (certainly the two I have) are very poorly sampled — hard, quite thin, with a fatigueing sound and a very problematic midrange — and while the Synchron player software offers several tools to compensate for the samples’ most distracting weaknesses, it can only do so much. And that ‘so much’ is, I fear, nowhere near enough.
> 
> ...


Thanks - really interesting read. The Synchron pianos always get such good press on these forums, but I had already thought that there is a certain 'thinness' to what I heard. I just assumed that it was the repertoire that had been chosen in the examples. But I was struggling a bit with the lack of warmth. My main frustration with the samples I have is the that they don't have enough dynamic layers, and no amount of fiddling with the velocity curves etc seems to help. I want to be able to make more subtle dynamic changes


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## Ben (Feb 11, 2021)

Personally I disagree with almost everything @re-peat posted above. 
Imo not every sampled piano should sound close to, or like a felt piano.

I would suggest to try out the Stage B pianos, the Bösendorfer 280VC, Bösendorfer Upright, or the Blüthner for an easy to control intimate and direct sound. And for full control get the Full Library contents, the additional mics can change the sound quite a lot! 
Best of all: if you get it from our website you can return the libraries within 14 days, if you don't like them.


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## SupremeFist (Feb 11, 2021)

jimjazzuk said:


> Thanks - really interesting read. The Synchron pianos always get such good press on these forums, but I had already thought that there is a certain 'thinness' to what I heard. I just assumed that it was the repertoire that had been chosen in the examples. But I was struggling a bit with the lack of warmth. My main frustration with the samples I have is the that they don't have enough dynamic layers, and no amount of fiddling with the velocity curves etc seems to help. I want to be able to make more subtle dynamic changes


The Bosendörfers (I have Imperial 290 & Upright) & Blüthner are all definitely warmer & richer compared to the demos of the Steinway and Yamaha (which I never liked for those reasons), but I still suspect you'd be happier with the full Embertone Walker.


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## Dietz (Feb 11, 2021)

re-peat said:


> the Synchron pianos (certainly the two I have) are very poorly sampled


 



re-peat said:


> I’m pretty much alone with this opinion


Yep.


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## re-peat (Feb 11, 2021)

ptram said:


> I think it was a stylistic choice.



A stylistic choice? I don’t hear it, I must say, *Paolo*. I’d love to be able, like you seem to be, to hear/interpret/exploit a recording flaw as if it were a stylistic choice, but in the case of the Synchrons, I’m afraid I can’t. Pianos like the ArtVista, or the Blue, the Walker, or even the Signature, those are, to my ears, clearly the result of stylistic choices, where the final product is indeed infused with the musically logical consequences of various stylistic and creative choices — not that I like any of these virtual pianos very much, but I’m prepared to accept they are what they are as a result of stylistic choices — but the Synchrons, which are sold as pristine, ‘objective’ high-quality emulations of top-level grand pianos, are simply sonically flawed and that’s got nothing to do with a stylistic choice, that’s the result of poor sampling.

And it's not that I have a problem with modern, clear, pristine recorded pianosound at all. Old or young ears don't enter into this. In fact, I quite like today's crisp, clear and pristine pianosound in good recordings. If only the Synchron instruments offered something which answered to that discription. But they don’t.

And I certainly don’t think a grand piano should sound like a felt piano — that’s quite a deplorably idiotic reading of my words, if you don’t mind me saying so, *Ben* —, but I’m also of the opinion that a supposedly high-quality sampled grand shouldn’t sound thin, clangy, hard and robbed of all its natural tonal richness and warmth, the way the Synchrons I'm familiar with do.

Below are three examples of, to my ears, very well recorded grand pianos. (Their recording quality even survives effortlessly after a 192kbps mp3 conversion.) This is, to me, how a recorded piano should sound, provided, that is, that the goal is to present the instrument in an as realistic, transparent, stylistically neutral and uncoloured way as recording technology allows for. The pianos in these examples have all the warmth, full- and roundness of the real thing, yet don’t sacrifice even the slightest bit of clarity, punch, detail, image, crispness, definition and presence. And they’ve got all the necessary depth and full dynamic expressiveness too.

*- http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Blechacz_PianoRecording.mp3 (example 1)
- http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Trifonov_Gnomenreigen.mp3 (example 2)
- http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/VO_Widerstehe.mp3 (example 3)*

Getting this kind of sound from any of the Synchrons is simply impossible. (To be fair, it’s just as impossible with every other virtual piano as well.) But the Synchrons, which we’re told are supposed to be in the upper echelon of contemporary piano sampling, should do a lot better, I find, than they do.

_


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## SupremeFist (Feb 11, 2021)

re-peat said:


> A stylistic choice? I don’t hear it, I must say, *Paolo*. I’d love to be able, like you seem to be, to hear/interpret/exploit a recording flaw as if it were a stylistic choice, but in the case of the Synchrons, I’m afraid I can’t. Piano’s like the ArtVista, or the Blue, the Walker, or even the Signature, those are, to my ears, clearly the result of stylistic choices, where the final product is indeed infused with the musically logical consequences of various stylistic and creative choices — not that I like any of these virtual pianos very much, but I’m prepared to accept they are what they are as a result of stylistic choices — but the Synchrons, which are sold as pristine, ‘objective’ high-quality emulations of top-level grand pianos, are simply sonically flawed and that’s got nothing to do with a stylistic choice, that’s the result of poor sampling.
> 
> And I don’t have a problem with modern, clear, pristine recorded pianosound at all. In fact, I quite like it. If only the Synchron instruments offered something which answered to that discription. But they don’t.
> 
> ...


Do you like any sampled pianos?


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## ptram (Feb 11, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Below are three examples of, to my ears, very well recorded grand pianos.


Are these recordings from the early Seventies? They are for sure impossible to emulate with the Synchron Pianos. All of them are new exemplars, or (in the case of the 280VC or the CFX) models that didn't exist at the time. All of them – with the possible exception of the Imperial* – are very different from the older pianos. Even the Steinway doesn't sound like the Steinways I could play in my life (or that I can still access with the Embertone Walker).

Now try to listen to a recent recording from Yuja Wang. You'll see that the sound is very different from Horowitz, Richter, Arrau. It's more metallic, glossier, nearly deprived of any nuance. It's the sound I can hear from most young pianists, who also usually like Yamahas more than Steinways. I don't like it at all, but she is the most successful pianist around. That's the direction music is going towards. There are still exceptions, like the Russian school, too strong and historically founded to slide into modern times too fast. No wonder another celebrated contemporary pianist like Anna Fedorova still plays the Imperial, and not a 280VC.

*The Synchron Imperial is clearly different than the Vienna Imperial, and is, here again, a 'colder' exemplar, as it happens with factory-new instruments.

Paolo


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## pmountford (Feb 11, 2021)

I don't want to pile on on this but as much as I like the VSL CFX and Bose Upright that I have in my collection, I can relate to what Re-Peat is saying. I've actually been holding back from buying anymore sampled pianos until I can hear one with a little more 'body'. I don't doubt that VSL are more than capable of capturing a piano with this warmer tone and very much look forward to owning a Synchron like this soon.


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## Buz (Feb 11, 2021)

Yeah it's fair to say that there's a certain ease of tone associated with the body sound of a real instrument. Implying there is a problem with one specific sampling process seems tenuous, but certainly it's an area where some extremely clever modelling could contribute a little more than it does currently. 

Personally I like all the stage A pianos, but based on 'intimate' perhaps trial the 280VC and see if it does what you need.


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## Ben (Feb 11, 2021)

pmountford said:


> I don't doubt that VSL are more than capable of capturing a piano with this warmer tone and very much look forward to owning a Synchron like this soon.


Yes, there is a difference between "poorly sampled" and "I personally don't like the sound of this piano".
Personally the least favorite piano sound from our Synchron Pianos is the Concert D - I know it's sampled with the highest quality and I know many love it, still for my taste the Yamaha and especially the Bösendorfers sound better. I would still sometimes choose the Concert D over the other pianos if it fits better the current project.
If I had to choose only one virtual piano to use for the rest of my live it would probably be the Synchron Bösendorfer 280VC, or the Synchron Imperial...


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## pmountford (Feb 11, 2021)

While I said I can relate to what Re-Peat was saying regarding warm/full tone and I can't confess to being a piano expert in any way, (just another jobber who knows the tone they're after), I don't agree that the pianos are 'poorly sampled'. 

I purchased Noire recently after reading the praise on this forum but I've never dropped a sample library so quickly. I'll have to go back to it and see what all of the love for it was about, but I'm staying with Synchron for it's playability. That's why I really hope VSL capture a more intimate, warm, close, full, dare I say more 'emotional' sounding piano.


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## SupremeFist (Feb 11, 2021)

One thing the Synchron pianos benefit from, in my experience, is being very careful to adjust your keyboard response to suit their particular velocity mapping. If you watch the walkthroughs with the demonstrators playing, the notes come up in almost all blue and green, which means velocity rarely past 70-80 or so. That way I can get the warm tone I want from the Bs. (The Synchron player really should have a proper velocity curve editor though.)


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 11, 2021)

Ben said:


> there is a difference between "poorly sampled" and "I personally don't like the sound of this piano


This is definitely the correct way to phrase it.


My biggest issue is that I know in order to get the tone that I want I would want access to the full library, however the full library I don't find to be at a competitive price point compared to what is available now. 

I've been keeping my eye on sales hoping it'll wind up so that I have the money at the right time, but this is definitely where value plays a significant part in my willingness to risk.

I've got playbility completely covered with pianoteq, and most great established Kontakt pianos go for 100-150$ regularly so 540 euros(about 650$) is just a hard sell for me. 

Ymmv but that's where I am now


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## ptram (Feb 11, 2021)

pmountford said:


> I purchased Noire recently after reading the praise on this forum but I've never dropped a sample library so quickly.


Noire is a 'signature' piano library, so it excels in a style and is not very versatile. I would say 'warm', often vintage pianos, are not so uncommon on the market. I love the Embertone Walker, a Steinway from the Sixties, that is what I consider a very versatile piano. But it can't do anything 'bright' sounding...

Paolo


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## re-peat (Feb 11, 2021)

ptram said:


> Are these recordings from the early Seventies?


*Paolo*, no, these are all from the past 13 years: Rafaël Blechacz, Daniil Trifonov and Víkingur Ólafsson, a young(ish) trio of piano players, recorded in 2008, 2016 and 2018 respectively.
All three examples are state-of-the-art digital recordings and, to my ears, as fine as any in recorded piano history (and definitely much more satisfying — sonically speaking — than what passed for good piano recordings in the 70’s).



SupremeFist said:


> Do you like any sampled pianos?


*Fist*, the short and most honest answer is “No, not really." But that’s from the perspective of comparing it to the real thing. Which one shouldn't do, I suppose. So if I don’t do that and wisely accept a sampled piano for what it is, then yes, there a few with which I can get some of my piano-based work done. Never enthusiastically though, but always with a sort of pragmatic resignation instead. (And I would *never* attempt a solo piano recording of music that assumes the presence of an instrument that has most or all of the capabilities of the real thing, with a virtual piano.)

-


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## SupremeFist (Feb 11, 2021)

re-peat said:


> So if I don’t do that and wisely accept a sampled piano for what it is, then yes, there a few with which I can get some of my piano-based work done. Never enthusiastically though, but always with a sort of pragmatic resignation instead.


Which ones? I'm interested!


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## re-peat (Feb 11, 2021)

Ben said:


> Yes, there is a difference between "poorly sampled" and "I personally don't like the sound of this piano".


I know and I agree of course. That difference is precisely why I chose "poorly sampled".

_


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## Ben (Feb 11, 2021)

re-peat said:


> I know and I agree of course. That difference is precisely why I chose "poorly sampled".
> 
> _


🤦‍♂️


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## william81723 (Feb 11, 2021)

I still can't have much love on synchron strings,but honestly synchron pianos are the kings of pianos in the world.
They have the cleanest recorded sounds and super beautiful space pictures.
I have all 6 pianos and I can use them in various situation.
280VC and steinway D are my most favorite pianos,just because their sounds hit my taste.


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## Pianolando (Feb 11, 2021)

I only own the Concert-D, but I kinda get what re-peat is saying. It’s extremely hard (compared to other virtual pianos) to get a good performance out of the VSL piano, it’s like all velocities above 70 or so sounds like ff-fff and as SupremeFist wrote, the lack of a proper velocity curve makes it so much harder to get it playable while still being able to reach the higher velocities. I’ve played countless real Steinway D and this library does not match any of them, no matter what controller I use it with. My (totally uneducated) guess is that the problem was with the robot who played the notes. Way too much emphasis on the high velocities.

Then, on the other hand, it’s super deeply sampled, with 100+ dynamic layers, and it’s a pristine instrument in a beautiful hall with top of the line microphones. I don’t think that can honestly be called badly sampled. The truth is that it has no competition at all in the sampling world, because strange as it sounds not a single producer has deeply sampled a new, or at least fairly new Steinway D. Walker is (and totally sounds like) a vintage instrument, Noire is a niche library, Ravenscroft is no steinway and not too deep either. Garritan CFX is amazing, but has no “reedy” Steinway tone. 

With the VSL pianos you get many mics, including tree,which is crazy that almost no other libraries has.

So if you want something that sounds like (most of) the last 20+ years of classical piano recordings, this is the closest you will get, however frustrating it is to use. If they could add a proper velocity curve it would be SO much easier to use, the one in Walker is the easiest and best in my opinion, but the instrument is not to my taste for most things.


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## CT (Feb 11, 2021)

re-peat said:


> I’m pretty much alone with this opinion


You're not!

Right now I can only really summon enthusiasm about Ivory pianos.


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## keepitsimple (Feb 11, 2021)

Best way to get the most out of VSL pianos is to change the velocity *inside your controller *(no need to touch the sensitivity slider or use a velocity plugin) to the hardest ramp available aka the one that makes your keys the hardest, that way you'll take advantage of the lower spectrum of those 64 velocity layers and it will make a big difference with the sound.

Same thing applies to pianoteq by the way.

Keyscape (32 layers): Yes i do it as well.

I find that other libraries with less velocity layers don't require this procedure (in my case). For example in the case of the Ravenscroft (19 layers) and Garritan CFX (21 layers?), i don't need to adjust anything.


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## SupremeFist (Feb 11, 2021)

Pianolando said:


> If they could add a proper velocity curve it would be SO much easier to use, the one in Walker is the easiest and best in my opinion, but the instrument is not to my taste for most things.


I agree that the Walker is among the best for its velocity controls (and it's very much to my taste for some things) but pretty much every other good library apart from VSL's also gives you much more control over the response. For the prices they charge this is a major missing feature imo.


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## SupremeFist (Feb 11, 2021)

keepitsimple said:


> I find that other libraries with less velocity layers don't require this procedure (in my case). For example in the case of the Ravenscroft (19 layers) and Garritan CFX (21 layers?), i don't need to adjust anything.


To be fair I find that every piano library has a slightly different sweet-spot range in the velocity mapping, but VSL's for sure is an outlier.


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## Rob (Feb 11, 2021)

I wonder if some kind of compressed format is used in these samples, instead of full audio... just because dividing the size of the installed samples by the samples number gives around 1.8 Mb per sample. That doesn't seem enough, even considering that the higher range has shorter samples.


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## Pianolando (Feb 11, 2021)

My Yamaha CP4 has way to few velocity options to be usable. My Montage 88 only three (hard, soft, normal). My Yamaha upright YUS with silent mode is awesome to use as a controller for VI, and needs no adjustment at all when controlling Garritan CFX or Walker, since the action is as heavy as a real acoustic (well it is a real acoustic after all) and it has no way of adjusting the touch anyway. But, with VSL Concert D it needs heavy adjustment to sound reasonable.

Point is, it needs to be adjusted in the VI to work properly, at least with most controllers.


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## FireGS (Feb 11, 2021)

Do we know how many velocity layers the VSL Syncron pianos have? I see "4,000" samples per note, but what does that translate into velocity levels?


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## Rob (Feb 11, 2021)

FireGS said:


> Do we know how many velocity layers the VSL Syncron pianos have? I see "4,000" samples per note, but what does that translate into velocity levels?


More than 100


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## FireGS (Feb 11, 2021)

Rob said:


> More than 100


But clearly not over 9,000.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Feb 11, 2021)

FireGS said:


> But clearly not over 9,000.


Mics. Pedals.


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## Rob (Feb 11, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Mics. Pedals.


exactly, ped up, ped down, releases, noises, (una corda?)...


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 11, 2021)

Ironically I just ended up buying the walker earlier today. 

Haven't played it yet but the mic demo is nice so I plopped it into my saw to test some mixes


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## SupremeFist (Feb 11, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> Ironically I just ended up buying the walker earlier today.
> 
> Haven't played it yet but the mic demo is nice so I plopped it into my saw to test some mixes


Can't imagine anyone not loving the full Walker if they liked what they heard on the demos.


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 11, 2021)

My only issue is that it didn't have an even further option than room, but it's enough room that a little altiverb worked. I had used main close and room but I might try hammer wide and room. 

I just need it to be orchestral so it's going to be slight out of it's comfort but the general tone seems pleasant


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## SupremeFist (Feb 11, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> My only issue is that it didn't have an even further option than room, but it's enough room that a little altiverb worked. I had used main close and room but I might try hammer wide and room.
> 
> I just need it to be orchestral so it's going to be slight out of it's comfort but the general tone seems pleasant


3 mics is maybe ambitious but definitely try hammer + room or hammer + main.


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 11, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> 3 mics is maybe ambitious but definitely try hammer + room or hammer + main.



I use a 128gb machine and the more layers the less you need round robin. I'll see either way, I had taken a few db off the first partial in my crude test using the website demo


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## SupremeFist (Feb 11, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I use a 128gb machine and the more layers the less you need round robin. I'll see either way, I had taken a few db off the first partial in my crude test using the website demo


iirc Embertone recommends leaving RRs off unless your piece specifically has a lot of repeated notes one after the other. I never use the RRs personally.


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## ptram (Feb 11, 2021)

I've been after Scriabin's Etude in C# minor for decades, and I'm not yet there. However, I think it can work well as a comparison between pianos in a small hall/intimate concert situation.

This is the Embertone Walker (Close, Main/Middle, Room mics, added a touch of final algo reverb and compression):

Scriabin's Etude on the Embertone Walker

And this is the VSL Bösendorfer Imperial (Condenser/Hammers, Ribbon/Player, Tube/Inside, Decca Main, Surround, no final algo reverb); MIDI sensitivity reduced of -22, half-pedal increased to 60%, some low-cut on some of the close mics; no compression applied:

Scriabin's Etude on the VSL Bösendorfer Imperial

Very different pianos, for sound and response.

Paolo

(Please, note that the piece was originally recorded and edited with the Embertone; no optimization has been done for the VSL).


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 11, 2021)

well i got outta bed to get a sneak peak of the thing and no dice, never finished the first mic. had some errors - im not sure if it's this new software "conduct" causing the problem or not.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Feb 11, 2021)

re-peat said:


> *- http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/VO_Widerstehe.mp3 (example 3)*
> 
> Getting this kind of sound from any of the Synchrons is simply impossible.




D-274 "warm" Synchron. (I'm sight-reading this piece... don't @ me.) I could get even "warmer" with the Bosendorfer 280VC probably... 
View attachment D274-Warm Synchron.mp3


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## CT (Feb 11, 2021)

I think those are Bach's greatest introductory bars, regardless of what they're played on.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Feb 11, 2021)

Mike T said:


> I think those are Bach's greatest introductory bars, regardless of what they're played on.


I need to steal more Bach for my own compositions.


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## re-peat (Feb 11, 2021)

Pianolando said:


> (...) it’s super deeply sampled, with 100+ dynamic layers, and it’s a pristine instrument in a beautiful hall with top of the line microphones. I don’t think that can honestly be called badly sampled. The truth is that it has no competition at all in the sampling world, because strange as it sounds not a single producer has deeply sampled a new, or at least fairly new Steinway D. Walker is (and totally sounds like) a vintage instrument, Noire is a niche library, Ravenscroft is no steinway and not too deep either. Garritan CFX is amazing, but has no “reedy” Steinway tone.
> 
> With the VSL pianos you get many mics, including tree,which is crazy that almost no other libraries has. (...)



Much-much-much more important than _how much_ you sample, Pianolando, is _what_ you sample. The Synchrons were captured from 10 different mic perspectives, but there’s not a single one among them that can make these instruments sing. Synchrons can’t sing. They can yap, they can quack, they can do a damn fine impersonation of a desinfected refrigerator, they can bark, growl and roar and their sound can pierce through armour, but they can’t sing. Isn’t that sad?

The Hammersmith is another example: countless velocity layers, but resulting in a piano that is frustratingly impotent at either side of the dynamic spectrum. Or take the Spitfire Studio Series: 6 microphone pairs half of which I find only useful — especially when considering the room these things were recorded in — to beef up the specs or waste disc space.

I’ve got drum libraries that have only 4 velocity layers and just one mic perspective but which are capable of more convincing and appealing sounding drum performances than some super-deluxe libraries that come with endless mic perspectives, various bleed channels and I don’t know how many velocity layers.

What does it matter if a piano has 100 velocity layers if all hundred of them were captured with the same flawed mic set-ups that resulted in that thin, cold and hard Synchron sound? These pianos might have had 2000 velocity layers and it wouldn’t have made the slightest difference as to the unpleasant character of their sound.

People shouldn’t be so quick to be in awe of impressive specs or to belief that impressive specs also automatically result in impressive libraries. That’s anything but a given. In fact, it is very rarely the case. Specs, on their own, mean absolutely nothing. ‘Deeply sampled’ is totally meaningless too, unless sounds were sampled that are sonically solid and musically meaningful, believable and expressive. And I fear I hear way too few samples in my two Synchron pianos that fit that description.

I never read specs, I’m not in the least interested in them. Because I’ve got too much proof on my sample HD’s of the fact that these numbers are in no way related to the actual musical quality of a library.

_


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## FireGS (Feb 11, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> D-274 "warm" Synchron. (I'm sight-reading this piece... don't @ me.) I could get even "warmer" with the Bosendorfer 280VC probably...
> View attachment D274-Warm Synchron.mp3


This is really nice. I didn't expect it to sound so similar, but there is a noticeable difference in the tone. Are they so dissimilar? Probably not.


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## FireGS (Feb 11, 2021)

re-peat said:


> The Synchrons were captured from 10 different mic perspectives, but there’s not a single one among them that can make these instruments sing. Synchrons can’t sing. They can yap, they can quack, they can do a damn fine impersonation of a desinfected refrigerator, they can bark, growl and roar and their sound can pierce through armour, but they can’t sing. Isn’t that sad?


I get what you're saying, but this is super hyperbolic just for the sake of it.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Feb 11, 2021)

FireGS said:


> This is really nice. I didn't expect it to sound so similar, but there is a noticeable difference in the tone. Are they so dissimilar? Probably not.


Totally... and the goal was to not completely match it, but just get across the idea to that other guy that utilizing the _tube mic_ can (shockingly!) add some warmth haha.

The other thing is that Olafsson's album is all Bach... thus it was engineered with that in mind. I'm sure if VSL wanted to sample a piano intended for only a single composer, perhaps those recording techniques would change, the choice of instrument, etc.


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## CGR (Feb 11, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> D-274 "warm" Synchron. (I'm sight-reading this piece... don't @ me.) I could get even "warmer" with the Bosendorfer 280VC probably...
> View attachment D274-Warm Synchron.mp3


Interesting comparison. The VSL Synchron D holds up pretty well here, but those melody notes from 00:24 to around 00:48 in the 'VO Widerstehe' example Piet posted have a warmth, depth and clarity that would be hard to match with any sampled or virtual piano.

I only have the Lite version of the VSL Synchron Steinway D, but have the Standard of the Synchron Bosendorfer Imperial which I really enjoy (plus Standard Bosendorfer Upright & Bluthner Grand) as well as the older VSL Silent Stage Vienna Imperial (which has a warmer, rounder tone).

Great to have the two variations of the Bosendorfer 290 Imperial. When I need precision and clarity, I reach for the Synchron Bosendorfer Imperial, and when I'm after warmth and fullness I'll call up the Vienna Imperial. Also, apart from mic choice & mix, I've found the EQ and compression inserts in the Synchron Pianos GUI are a quick and effective way to add some body to the tone. The team at VSL really know their stuff and personal preferences & taste aside, are the leaders in sampled piano technology in my opinion.

Now - let's all just go make some music!


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## FireGS (Feb 11, 2021)

CGR said:


> Also, apart from mic choice & mix, I've found the EQ and compression inserts in the Synchron Pianos GUI are a quick and effective way to add some body to the tone. The team at VSL really know their stuff and personal preferences & taste aside, are the leaders in sampled piano technology in my opinion.


Yeah, I think this is kind of an important note - there is no way on earth a company like VSL can look at the task of sampling a piano and tailor it to one specific sound or use case. I believe the point of the method of recording is so that one has the ability to make it sound how **you** want it.

If it's by default a warm sounding library - you've cut off a large portion of your potential userbase. Not everyone wants a warm piano. Some may want to use it for pop, some for big band, some for orchestral - and I'd argue getting a sampled piano close to what you're after is far easier with a (i say this lightly) sterile sound that can molded into whatever you want than trying to take warmth out of samples. I could be wrong, but its always better to start with a good recording and make it better than fighting a poor sound and trying to make it sound good.

Then again, if you're opinion is that the out-of-the-box samples are a poor recording, this conversation is moot.

And @re-peat has been very thorough in saying how he doesn't like the libraries and that the recordings are poor (I don't see any actual evidence of this...), but I'm not hearing why he thinks the method of recording was wrong. What's wrong? The space? The mics? The mic placement? The polar patterns? What **is** it, in your opinion, that VSL failed at here?


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Feb 11, 2021)

CGR said:


> The VSL Synchron D holds up pretty well here


I think so too... and this is only f**kin' around for a few minutes. I could _probably_ "match" after I spent a month with this piece and all that, but why? Better to do something different if I were to make a commercial recording of this piece. 😄


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## SupremeFist (Feb 11, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Totally... and the goal was to not completely match it, but just get across the idea to that other guy that utilizing the _tube mic_ can (shockingly!) add some warmth haha.


Yep, I'm all about the tube mics on the Imperial/Upright/Blüthner....


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## cfodeebiedaddy (Feb 11, 2021)

re-peat said:


> The Synchrons were captured from 10 different mic perspectives, but there’s not a single one among them that can make these instruments sing. Synchrons can’t sing. They can yap, they can quack, they can do a damn fine impersonation of a desinfected refrigerator, they can bark, growl and roar and their sound can pierce through armour, but they can’t sing. Isn’t that sad?
> _


I agree with re-peat that the Synchron pianos aren't perfect: The Steinway has one of the worst 'out of the box' velocity curves I've ever come across: It really shouldn't need so much tweaking to be playable in a way that gives a good dynamic response (and none of the Synchron pianos have needed this). At first, this was one of the most disappointing experiences I've had with a VI because the gap between expectation and reality was so large.

Across the board, I've also found that the presets do very little justice to what the Synchron pianos can do, at least in the mortal hands.

But, I want to respectfully disagree about these pianos' inability to sing. I've found them - particularly the CFX and Imperial for things I'm trying to 'read,' and the CFX and Upright for the bluesy style I usually play - to be (and I cringe as I say this) inspiring. For the first time in literally two decades, I'm motivated to practice pieces and arrangements I never thought I could read music well enough to learn. The dynamics are stellar, playability is up there with Garritan and Pianoteq, and I've had no problems getting the instruments to sound warm and full of life (though I've had to wring the room-sound out of them).

I don't want to sound like I'm discrediting any negative experiences with these pianos, and I *especially* don't want this to sound like 'if you don't like them, it's a problem with you and not the pianos.' But, I did want to offer a dissenting view and possible explanation for why some people might feel that the Synchron pianos don't meet their expectations. Even though it took a fair amount of playing with mic blends and ambience, I even managed to get the D274 to sound, well, spectacular, honestly!


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## Petrucci (Feb 11, 2021)

So does buying Standard Synchron piano make sense? Or the mics there are not enough to shape the sound? And what would you guys choose - Imperial or the new 280VC?? Will it be easy to make 280VC wet enough to fit into Synchron Hall A together with BBO etc?


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## ptram (Feb 12, 2021)

Petrucci said:


> So does buying Standard Synchron piano make sense?


The only close mic pair you get with the Standard versions is the one pointed at the hammers. Together with the middle and room mics, you get a very precise image of the piano, but with limited shaping possibilities. Adding the other close mics (from the player perspective, and inside the piano but farther from the hammers) makes the sound fuller, smoother, and if needed more intimate.

Paolo


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## jimjazzuk (Feb 12, 2021)

* Tries to push worms back in to the open can *

Soooooo, as I was asking, which one is your favourite and why?


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## pianistje (Feb 12, 2021)

*i have all three new Bösendorfers , but standard versions only. I am interested in the tube mic of the full versions. But it is a lot of money and keep reading mixed messages about the extra value of the full versions. I only use a limited amount of mics anyway....anyone who can elaborate a bit about the added value ?*


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## JonS (Feb 12, 2021)

I don't have the new 280VC yet but I have all the other Synchron Pianos. Even though I normally prefer real Steinway pianos to play, the Synchron Bosendorfer Imperial is my favorite VSL Synchron Piano so far. I think it sounds phenomenal, best VI piano to date.


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## william81723 (Feb 12, 2021)

These are my synchron piano preset for Steinway D and 280VC.
I made them almost dry with not using main and surround mic. (Usually I use other reverb plugins)
I know many people don't like Steinway D's one,but I really love the bright and clear tone and the beautiful attack noise.
There is no other library in the market can make this stunning sound....
And 280VC is my most favorite synchron piano now. 280VC can easily match my most pop music case.


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## SupremeFist (Feb 12, 2021)

If I had to pick a favourite (but don't make me) it would be the Blüthner. Very intimate and warm with the right mic blend, and fantastically three-dimensional, you can almost hear the wood creak.


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## ptram (Feb 12, 2021)

pianistje said:


> i have all three new Bösendorfers , but standard versions only. I am interested in the tube mic of the full versions.


The VSL site should contain some examples with the separate mics. We users could also try to prepare others (I can't, at the moment).

The tube mics are placed in a way to get the internal of the piano far from the hammers. They catch the middle of the high and low strings, capturing the sound in all its fullness. They are mellower, and can even become boomy. Where they add body, the Condenser/hammers mics add punch and presence.

The ribbon mics are placed next to the Condenser, but they get less of the hammers and are way mellower. What I find they add to the mix is some sort of air, of added perspective. All three close mics have a huge impact on the final sound, that can go from extremely bright and aggressive to subdued, from (to use some words dear to VSL) agile to bold.

No idea of what the second pair of Mid mics do. Not yet tried them. I'm not even sure to have installed them…

Surround are great for mixing the piano with an orchestra. They also add a particular shimmer to the solo piano (imagine when you play in an empty hall, and you are focused on your piano, but can hear the far bump of your sound from the hall). If the piano has to be used mainly as a solo piano, I guess these are not particularly useful, and you already have the in the RoomMix (even if not separated and not ready for your own mix).

No idea of the High/3D mics. Not installed them, since I don't have a system for them. But I read they can add to the sound.

Paolo


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## pianistje (Feb 12, 2021)

Thanks Paolo !!


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## Ben (Feb 12, 2021)

ptram said:


> The VSL site should contain some examples with the separate mics.


You should check again, it was there from day 1  
You will also find these in the manual.


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## ptram (Feb 12, 2021)

Ben said:


> You should check again, it was there from day 1


Ben, my 'should' was used in an hypothetical form, not an advice (is this the right definition in the English grammar? I should go checking!). I couldn't simply check if I remembered correctly.

Paolo


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## SupremeFist (Feb 12, 2021)

pianistje said:


> *i have all three new Bösendorfers , but standard versions only. I am interested in the tube mic of the full versions. But it is a lot of money and keep reading mixed messages about the extra value of the full versions. I only use a limited amount of mics anyway....anyone who can elaborate a bit about the added value ?*


Depends on the sound you're after. Since I like to dial in a close, warm, pretty dry sound for detailed, exposed work, I would not be satisfied with the standard versions of any of the libraries because they only have 1 close + 1 mid. (Particularly since I don't like the Synchron room signals nearly as much as the rooms of some other piano VIs.) But it is a lot more money and if you don't feel like you're missing much already, or you're just going to use the pianos in mixes with other things, then maybe you don't need the extra microphones.


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## SupremeFist (Feb 12, 2021)

cfodeebiedaddy said:


> Across the board, I've also found that the presets do very little justice to what the Synchron pianos can do, at least in the mortal hands.


Hard agree here: I think the presets are absolutely horrible and find it quite offensive that they take up so much permanent space on the GUI.


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## Michael Antrum (Feb 12, 2021)

ptram said:


> The VSL site should contain some examples with the separate mics.......


You get a 14 day return window. I'm not sure what else anyone else could realistically want. 

You get 14 days to test the library to your hearts content - and if you don't like it, you get a full refund (when purchased from VSL). 

(And yes, the velocity curves are less than ideal - perhaps that is something that could be worked on a little @Ben)

But my previous 'go to' piano (Ivory II Concert D with Spaces II reverb) has had precious little use since I bought the Synchron D274. However, the Bosie upright is also fabulous too....


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## Ben (Feb 12, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> (And yes, the velocity curves are less than ideal - perhaps that is something that could be worked on a little @Ben)


Already something that is very high on our wishlist, and we talked about how we would like to implement it. (Can't give you any ETA.)

Btw, here the link to the mic comparison in the instrument manual (the same as on the product page):




__





Bösendorfer 280VC | VSL - Instruments







www.vsl.info


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 12, 2021)

Ben said:


> Already something that is very high on our wishlist, and we talked about how we would like to implement it. (Can't give you any ETA.)
> 
> Btw, here the link to the mic comparison in the instrument manual (the same as on the product page):
> 
> ...



Might be worth noting that prospective buyers would have no idea that exists. I didn't - might be helpful to just include that in the product page directly.


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## Ben (Feb 12, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> Might be worth noting that prospective buyers would have no idea that exists. I didn't - might be helpful to just include that in the product page directly.


It's also there: https://www.vsl.co.at/Synchron_Pianos_Bundle/Bosendorfer_280VC#!Presets






It's just easier to link to the manuals, thanks to the jump-to-chapter feature


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## star.keys (Feb 13, 2021)

VSL pianos are like those cover song singers who imitate famous singers (but cannot sing, although they can mimic well) Vs real singers that can actually sing and breathe

I could never find any use for them, both from a perspective of playing for my own pleasure as well as use in a recording

That said, Imperial is an exception to the above and there is something to like about this piano

Just bought 280. Good tone but it's dynamic response is sad. Low samples are nearly not existing and it is difficult to play soft parts, which is the heart of any piano. This looks like an oversight.


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## star.keys (Feb 13, 2021)

The other thing is, I always find it challenging to setup the right velocity curve for VSL pianos. No custom curve fits consistently well to any piano as well. If anyone has found a default curve for LMK4+, I would be grateful to know what works for you. Always a struggle to find that singing tone. Ok for fast passages where all real flaws get hidden but play slow, soft, expressive legato pieces pieces and this piano gets completely exposed in the wrong direction.


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## Tfis (Feb 13, 2021)

common mistake: playing with the volume too low. Real pianos are pretty loud when playing ff


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## CGR (Feb 13, 2021)

star.keys said:


> The other thing is, I always find it challenging to setup the right velocity curve for VSL pianos. No custom curve fits consistently well to any piano as well. If anyone has found a default curve for LMK4+, I would be grateful to know what works for you. Always a struggle to find that singing tone. Ok for fast passages where all real flaws get hidden but play slow, soft, expressive legato pieces pieces and this piano gets completely exposed in the wrong direction.


Have you tried the VSL Vienna Imperial? It may have all the qualities you are looking for (singing tone, full body & depth at low velocity levels). It's very expressive, with a controlled ambience having being sampled on the VSL Silent Stage, and handles additional reverb very well (the built in convolution reverbs are very well matched to piano).


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## CGR (Feb 13, 2021)

Tfis said:


> common mistake: playing with the volume to low. Real pianos are pretty loud when playing ff


+1. It's a reality check when you sit at a good quality acoustic upright or grand piano and play - there's such a full sound coming at you.

Monitoring your playing of virtual pianos at realistic volume levels is very important with regards to controlling dynamics and not slamming the keys too hard, which trigger high velocity samples too often and is often a "red flag" that the performance was recorded with a sampled piano.


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## keepitsimple (Feb 13, 2021)

I've been using this with the 280VC lately. I use it with everything, pianos, Superior Drummer etc. It's probably my most used plugin. You can do some surgical precision tweaking to get any piano to feel the way you want. The curve below is for the 280VC.

It's a free plugin but it's 32 bit. No problem on my end since Reaper can read 32 bit plugins.

You can get it here: https://vst4free.com/plugin/1414/


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## Pianolando (Feb 13, 2021)

keepitsimple said:


> I've been using this with the 280VC lately. I use it with everything, pianos, Superior Drummer etc. It's probably my most used plugin. You can do some surgical precision tweaking to get any piano to feel the way you want. The curve below is for the 280VC.
> 
> It's a free plugin but it's 32 bit. No problem on my end since Reaper can read 32 bit plugins.
> 
> You can get it here: https://vst4free.com/plugin/1414/



Holy crap that’s amazing. Wonder if that will work with logic. Very wierd that Logic doesn’t come with a plug like that, among all their midi plugins.


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## CGR (Feb 13, 2021)

keepitsimple said:


> I've been using this with the 280VC lately. I use it with everything, pianos, Superior Drummer etc. It's probably my most used plugin. You can do some surgical precision tweaking to get any piano to feel the way you want. The curve below is for the 280VC.
> 
> It's a free plugin but it's 32 bit. No problem on my end since Reaper can read 32 bit plugins.
> 
> You can get it here: https://vst4free.com/plugin/1414/


Handy plugin. I remember seeing a similar plugin for 64bit DAWs, but can't remember the name.


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## re-peat (Feb 13, 2021)

Pianolando said:


> Very wierd that Logic doesn’t come with a plug like that, among all their midi plugins.



If you go into Logic’s Environment, you can insert a Transformer somewhere between the ‘Physical Input’ and the ‘Sequencer Input’, select a ‘user map’ for the processing of incoming midi velocities, allowing you to change any incoming value to any outgoing value you like, thereby achieving much the same thing, I think, as what the midiCurve plugin accomplishes.

There appears to be convenience to that plugin which is absent from Logic’s Transformer (you can’t draw curves in the latter, for example), but if you take some time getting to know the thing and setting it up exactly as you like or as is needed, you should be able to make it do precisely what you want it to do.

But that still doesn’t change how the Synchron player responds to incoming midi of course. As has been suggested already, a little bit more control over how the Synchron player reads midi input would make a nice addition to the already impressive powers of its Edit section.

_


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## keepitsimple (Feb 13, 2021)

CGR said:


> Handy plugin. I remember seeing a similar plugin for 64bit DAWs, but can't remember the name.


Doing some research just now, it seems the developer made a 64bit version upon requests from users on KVR. Unfortunately, his website seems to have expired. As of now, only the 32 bit version is out there in the wild.


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## keepitsimple (Feb 14, 2021)

CGR said:


> Handy plugin. I remember seeing a similar plugin for 64bit DAWs, but can't remember the name.


You probably mean this? 





__





VeloScaler


VeloScaler is a VST plugin for controlling and modifying the velocity value of incoming MIDI notes.



www.codefn42.com


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Feb 14, 2021)

280VC... this thing can get loud like the main hall Synchron pianos. Fun!

Synchron 280VC
Missouri-Waltz-last-90sec.mp3
View attachment Missouri Waltz-last-90sec.mp3


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## keepitsimple (Feb 14, 2021)

CGR said:


> Handy plugin. I remember seeing a similar plugin for 64bit DAWs, but can't remember the name.


Bingo. Found all his plugins in google archive. Mac versions available as well. 





__





Google Code Archive - Long-term storage for Google Code Project Hosting.







code.google.com





Speaking only Windows on my side, the file that has the 64 bit version of Midicurve is the 4th one down in the list, dated August 23. 2011.


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## ptram (Feb 14, 2021)

re-peat said:


> But that still doesn’t change how the Synchron player responds to incoming midi of course. As has been suggested already, a little bit more control over how the Synchron player reads midi input would make a nice addition to the already impressive powers of its Edit section.


This doesn't absolve from the omission of selectable curves, but don't forget the MIDI Sensitivity parameter, acting as a compressor/expander on the incoming MIDI data. It can solve some of the issues with the different controllers.

Paolo


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## PaulieDC (Feb 14, 2021)

re-peat said:


> I sometimes think that the Synchron Hall’s acoustic profile isn’t very well suited to pianos


I won’t make friends with this statement but I agree. I own the CFX. Turning off the room mics turns off the hard and bright attributes the people speak of. The sampling itself of the piano is wonderful. However, if I don’t completely fancy the room that doesn’t mean somebody else shouldn’t. In all fairness, now that I have a better controller and better control over velocity curves, I’ve been getting some good results out of this library in the past week or so of playing with it.

However, and that’s a big however, this 280 VC in the smaller room is just infectious to my ears, I am just loving it. Every time I hear someone’s demo regardless of the style, my eyebrows raise and I go ”Ooooooo” with delight. I do like the sound of the piano but I also really like the sound of that room. For piano. There is something about it that makes me feel like I’m listening to a recording in a really nice jazz club or theater, and not listening to a sound library.

Just my $.02 and understand that I am not an accomplished classical player, so don’t give too much weight to my take on it.

==================================
Update: here’s the 280VC link that @Ben provided earlier. I listened to all of the mics, and the first mic in the standard section and the Neumann M149 tube mic in the extended section are worth the price of admission IMO. For how I play, those two mic positions are desert-island.


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## PaulieDC (Feb 14, 2021)

Actually it makes me want to buy a Neumann M149 microphone. 😀

Oh, they run $5,000. 😭


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## newman (Feb 15, 2021)

Is this the same midicurve tool with 64 bit support?









Excellent MIDI Velocity Curve Tool - FYI also freeware - Gearspace.com


While some instrument plugins have their own tools for adjusting velocity sensitivity, MidiCurve which is included in the freeware pack from the site link below has been a blessing, enabling me define velocity presets for all my sampled pianos in particul



www.gearslutz.com


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## keepitsimple (Feb 15, 2021)

Yes. I already posted here that it turned out to support both 64-bit and Mac (I'm on windows so can't confirm the Mac support).


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## Fa (Feb 15, 2021)

I think that Synchron Pianos software is very well designed, even if missing some basics like a Velocity curve adjustment tool, all the rest is brilliant and effective.

I got back the impression and the pleasure of playing a real piano when I got my new Kawai VP-1 keyboard connected to the VSL Synchron CFX.

None of other pianos I know (I had or try quite a bit of them) can reach this natural feeling in my opinion.

I was so happy with CFX, that I had to buy Steiny D as well, and I was initially a bit disappointed (by excessive brightness and slightly unbalanced dynamics), but after some updates, and with custom mix and set-up (that has no EQ involved at all) I finally managed to make it sound good to my taste.

Personally I don't like Boesendorfer's bass sound a bit too woody and mechanic for my taste, but I have to admit they are magnificent instruments for some style of music (e.g. the 280VC is fantastic with classical music, and some Bach's as well, due to registers clear separation and dry low range).

Then, my favorites up to now are in the following order:

- Yamaha CFX: so flexible and round, warm and bright in the mean time, very well balanced, perfect for emotional modern music as for classics.

- Steiny D and Boese 280VC, 2 very complementary alternatives, a bright and homogeneous the first, and a darker and polyphonic the other. They both have the more resonant and metallic character the Yamaha is missing, good for orchestral or modern mixes, and/or some romantic music.

I can understand people may have a personal "sound" in mind, and dislike Synchron Pianos, but the excess of criticism for a similar and so excellent product sounds suspect to me. My opinion is that whoever had a real piano experience can be at least happy, if not in love with it: but like real pianos, only after finding his personal favorite one, and the choice is there, with pretty different characters.


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## Rich4747 (Mar 24, 2021)

When I play piano its just for fun, but even so I never like one piano vst I always end up mixing 2 or 3 to get the sound I want which is messy and not proper. So I think to my self why not create a sample library made up of a bright punchy, soft and warm, romantic and full pianos. Now I am sure there would be all kinds of issues with doing that, but even if they could come close to producing 1 library out of 3 different pianos. With the ability to dial in percentage of each. Is this a silly pipe dream?


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Mar 24, 2021)

The Synchron Pianos plugin has velocity control under the EDIT tab.





Edit View | VSL - Software Manuals







www.vsl.info


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## ☻ (Mar 31, 2021)

I use the Steinway, because, well, it's a Steinway.  As a classical pianist, the out-the-box feel of it was totally wrong, so I adjusted the velocity curve to my liking (see below) and moved the timbre to -1 to mellow out that signature brilliant Hamburg Steinway attack just a hair (I honestly prefer the New York Steinway). After doing those things it's simply incredible. (And owning a soft pedal is a must.)


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 4, 2021)

Another sale going on now - as some folks here have mentioned the CFX was one of the best VSL ones, I was listening to a comparison of the Synchron CFX and Garritan CFX. Synchron sounds brighter. Garritan is cheaper full retail than the sale price of the VSL standard version (not to mention full version). Anybody own and compared both?


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## cfodeebiedaddy (Jun 5, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Another sale going on now - as some folks here have mentioned the CFX was one of the best VSL ones, I was listening to a comparison of the Synchron CFX and Garritan CFX. Synchron sounds brighter. Garritan is cheaper full retail than the sale price of the VSL standard version (not to mention full version). Anybody own and compared both?


I have both the Synchron and Garritan...and Noire. I like all of them so I must just like the CFX sound 

They each have different strengths.

The Noire is phenomenally flexible (with the felt, particles engine, overtones, subharmonics etc), sounds great, has a (relatively) small hard drive footprint, and can be picked up cheap. Especially, I suspect, right now - I can't be the only person who has a standalone license they're going to sell because they just upgraded to a version of Komplete that includes it!

The Garritan is beautifully recorded in a beautiful sounding room, plays beautifully, and sounds amazing (beautiful, even) right out of the box.

The Synchron...is my favourite, and (with the 280VC) is one of the two VSL pianos that have transformed my playing/practicing experience. To me, it's even more responsive than the Garritan and really feels like I'm playing an instrument that's alive. It sounds crystalline but hefty, and a bit less polished than the Garritan version IMO. Both the Garritan and VSL 'transport' me when I'm playing through headphones.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 5, 2021)

cfodeebiedaddy said:


> I have both the Synchron and Garritan...and Noire. I like all of them so I must just like the CFX sound
> 
> They each have different strengths.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your thoughts! I also just acquired Noire but need to dig into it more. Are you using the VSL to practice / play for pleasure or do you use them within orchestral compositions? I saw a comparison video recently that seemed to imply VSL was great for solo type of pieces while Garritan was more flexible and suited for orchestral / hybrid situations.


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## cfodeebiedaddy (Jun 5, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Thank you for your thoughts! I also just acquired Noire but need to dig into it more. Are you using the VSL to practice / play for pleasure or do you use them within orchestral compositions? I saw a comparison video recently that seemed to imply VSL was great for solo type of pieces while Garritan was more flexible and suited for orchestral / hybrid situations.


Mostly practicing/playing for pleasure. I don't do anything more orchestral than slapping simple string parts on pop/rock stuff 

Honestly, both VSL and Garritan are fantastic, and as much as I love the VSL version of the CFX, if I'd never heard it I'd still think the Garritan was amazing. Part of me thinks that the Garritan was recorded in an environment that's more integral to the sound of the VI, so it's counterintuitive to me that people would see it as more suited for orchestral work.

But I have precisely zero expertise in that area, so grain of salt and all that!


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## keepitsimple (Jun 6, 2021)

I was one of the first who took the plunge and bought the full version of the CFX when it came out. After years of using the Synchron pianos and the Synchron pianos player, i have to say that the possibilities of shaping the sound on those pianos with the different mics/mic delay configurations are endless....to the point where i can see people getting overwhelmed and ending up just using the presets.

Nothing wrong with the presets... but for example, i never thought i would ever get the CFX to sound so warm until i decided to only use two mics (Close 2 and Mid 2). Both mics volume at 0. That's it.

My advice is to experiment with the mics until you find your sound. Turn on all mics and start hearing each one alone, then start experimenting with combinations and mic delay (it does affect the sound a lot) until you find you sound.


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## Gerbil (Jun 6, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Another sale going on now - as some folks here have mentioned the CFX was one of the best VSL ones, I was listening to a comparison of the Synchron CFX and Garritan CFX. Synchron sounds brighter. Garritan is cheaper full retail than the sale price of the VSL standard version (not to mention full version). Anybody own and compared both?


Yes. They're both very playable but I prefer the sound of the Garritan. I should add that I only have the standard version of the Synchron CFX, but it doesn't get much use. I've listened to a lot of the Synchron libraries and I don't think the hall sound is for me. There are obviously plenty of people who love it, so it's absolutely worth checking out.


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## Gamma1734 (Jun 6, 2021)

Very interesting thread, I followed all conversations and discussions about the harsh sound impression of the Steinway to the velocity adjustment tips. I have made many comparison videos on the VSL's but also sometimes failed in finding the right curve, and I also have to admit that in the case of the Steinway it is very unintuitive to see the maximum velocities peaking at 70 or 80 - it always leaves me the feeling that the ff passage was not loud enough when it possibly actually was. 
With all that feedback (and the interesting mic tip from above) I plan to do another video demonstrating the synchron sounds which I'll upload hopefully this week at some point. (Feel free to give further suggestions what would be especially useful to hear). When you get so many options to create the sound (mic positions, eq settings, vel curve adjustments, not to mention noises, attack and half pedal settings etc) it is sometimes easy to forget that it is about a -beautiful- piano tone most importantly. Although I love when pianos take advantage of all those pp, mp and p layers I find that (unless you are a true professional) you tend to play rather loudly on a grand anyways but it IS just difficult to have a perfect touch on a real grand, in my opinion. 
A nice example is Gnomenreigen left hand passage near the end: It's blazing fast. It's left hand and staccato. It's repeated notes. To make it even worse, it has to be played pp! Sound impossible? When I listened to recordings (Trifonov, Cziffra etc) I was surprised to hear the dynamics in this passage: pretty much forte. This told me that it is still the most important thing to tell the story of the piece *beautifully and properly*, and it's always a task to find the right settings to do so.


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## cfodeebiedaddy (Jun 6, 2021)

Gamma1734 said:


> (Feel free to give further suggestions what would be especially useful to hear). When you get so many options to create the sound (mic positions, eq settings, vel curve adjustments, not to mention noises, attack and half pedal settings etc) it is sometimes easy to forget that it is about a -beautiful- piano tone most importantly.


I enjoy your videos, Gamma, and you've opened me up to some music that I'd never have come across otherwise (Kapustin in particular!).

As far as suggestions go, mine is to showcase the timbre dial. I've often avoided playing with it as it felt against the spirit of the 'pureness' of the VSL pianos. But it's *so* useful, and I use it all the time on the 280VC. Given the brightness of the 274, I imagine it could be really useful for that instrument too.


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## Gamma1734 (Jun 6, 2021)

cfodeebiedaddy said:


> I enjoy your videos, Gamma, and you've opened me up to some music that I'd never have come across otherwise (Kapustin in particular!).
> 
> As far as suggestions go, mine is to showcase the timbre dial. I've often avoided playing with it as it felt against the spirit of the 'pureness' of the VSL pianos. But it's *so* useful, and I use it all the time on the 280VC. Given the brightness of the 274, I imagine it could be really useful for that instrument too.


Oh, that makes me happy to hear  Kapustin was not only an amazing composer but also a superb pianist too. I always have a biiiig grin on my face when I listen to his playing of his 4th movement of the first piano sonata. To me, it is the literally definition of Badass. Anyways, the timbre recommendation is really nice, I haven't messed around with that one so much. Should definitely try it!


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## FireGS (Jun 6, 2021)

cfodeebiedaddy said:


> As far as suggestions go, mine is to showcase the timbre dial.


I've tried it with the Imperial, and going to -4, I'm hearing some weird crackling. Put it back to 0, crackling goes away. Any ideas?


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## Ben (Jun 6, 2021)

FireGS said:


> I've tried it with the Imperial, and going to -4, I'm hearing some weird crackling. Put it back to 0, crackling goes away. Any ideas?


Please check the CPU meter popup.


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## FireGS (Jun 6, 2021)

Ben said:


> Please check the CPU meter popup.


Its hovering at about 4-6% CPU, on both settings. It's running off a PCIE Gen 4.0 SSD, and I'm using only the "default" player preset (chosen from the bottom choices). 128GB RAM.

Here's at 0 timber change:
View attachment MixdownNormal.mp3


Here's at -4 timber change: 
View attachment MixdownMinus4.mp3


At about 00:15, second to last chord, you can hear some crackling in the high end.


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## Ben (Jun 6, 2021)

@FireGS I'll answer your PM in a sec.


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## sostenuto (Jun 6, 2021)

Gerbil said:


> Yes. They're both very playable but I prefer the sound of the Garritan. I should add that I only have the standard version of the Synchron CFX, but it doesn't get much use. I've listened to a lot of the Synchron libraries and I don't think the hall sound is for me. There are obviously plenty of people who love it, so it's absolutely worth checking out.


Gets my attention. Vienna Imperial is under consideration. Recent posts here offered similar comment re. 'hall sound' , attracting personal attention. Have Garritan ... and feeling urged to add 'full' version Mics. This may be essential before Imperial.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 1, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> One thing the Synchron pianos benefit from, in my experience, is being very careful to adjust your keyboard response to suit their particular velocity mapping. If you watch the walkthroughs with the demonstrators playing, the notes come up in almost all blue and green, which means velocity rarely past 70-80 or so. That way I can get the warm tone I want from the Bs. (The Synchron player really should have a proper velocity curve editor though.)


with 1 day into the 280VC, i'm finding the velocity less than satisfying compared to my other VIs.


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## Ben (Aug 1, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> with 1 day into the 280VC, i'm finding the velocity less than satisfying compared to my other VIs.


Have you tried adjusting the velocity response curve?


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## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 1, 2021)

Ben said:


> Have you tried adjusting the velocity response curve?


There it is!






Thank you!

I knew it was user error.


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## Casiquire (Aug 1, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> There it is!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you enjoying it now? I've been eyeing it myself! I'm looking for something that can go from close, cozy, and impressionistic to a slightly larger hall sound.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 1, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Are you enjoying it now? I've been eyeing it myself! I'm looking for something that can go from close, cozy, and impressionistic to a slightly larger hall sound.


I am going to reserve comment on the 280VC until I get more time with it.

Currently, the older VSL Vienna Imperial is my hands down favorite.


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## cfodeebiedaddy (Aug 2, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Are you enjoying it now? I've been eyeing it myself! I'm looking for something that can go from close, cozy, and impressionistic to a slightly larger hall sound.


I'm not Zoot, but I enjoy playing the 280VC very much and find it extremely versatile - I understand why people are drawn to the 'magnificence' of the Bosendorfer Imperial, but although I have both I much prefer the 280VC. Along with the VSL CFX, it's my most used piano VI.


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## harmaes (Aug 2, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> There it is!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Also check out Timbre Shift and MIDI Sensitivity.


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## FabioA (Aug 2, 2021)

I always had the feeling the Yamaha CFX has something very special and unique, even though I really love the Steinway and the Bosendorfer, not to mention the Bosendorfer upright.
Another thought I would like to share: it rarely happened I had to chance to play concert pianos like these in real life: but when I did, I realised how hard it is to play them, for me. They are really powerful instruments with a huge dynamic range, compared to the pianos I am used to, and it requires a lot of control and skill to control the dynamic. I think this is quite well represented in VSL Synchron pianos. Truth is they are just a bit more difficult to play compared to a virtual piano with 5-6 (or even 10) velocity layers, which is much more "forgiveful" to a "poor" performance.
But as mentioned above, there are plenty of tools to tune Synchron Pianos according to our playstyle and keyboard controller.


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## Buz (Aug 2, 2021)

Hey @Ben, since we're on the topic, is dropping the top-right point on the response curve the same as reducing MIDI sensitivity? (assuming no other points added of course)


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## Casiquire (Aug 2, 2021)

Well i went ahead and grabbed it, and so far it seems like exactly what I was hoping for. The mid-low range is a little muddy but the sound and expression as a whole are really fantastic so far.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 2, 2021)

harmaes said:


> Also check out Timbre Shift and MIDI Sensitivity.


yes indeed - while looking through various upright threads, i came across this from @CGR 






this configuration changed EVERYTHING with the 280VC.

it's like it woke up.

sorry @CGR , i went ahead and shared it - exciting!


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## Ben (Aug 2, 2021)

Buz said:


> Hey @Ben, since we're on the topic, is dropping the top-right point on the response curve the same as reducing MIDI sensitivity? (assuming no other points added of course)


If I'm not mistaken it would have a similar effect. Keep in mind that both features combined change the way velocity is handled.


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## Casiquire (Aug 2, 2021)

harmaes said:


> Also check out Timbre Shift and MIDI Sensitivity.


Can you tell me more about the timbre shift? I'm only just getting started with Synchron pianos


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## Ben (Aug 2, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Can you tell me more about the timbre shift? I'm only just getting started with Synchron pianos


Timbre-Shift: It will tune the keys up or down. This changes the timbre of the instrument (positive values will make it sound more like a harpsichord, negative numbers make it sound mellow and somewhat similar to a felt piano).
Only downside: You will miss a few keys on bottom/top of the keyboard, depending on your setting.


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## ptram (Aug 3, 2021)

Ben said:


> Only downside: You will miss a few keys on bottom


Not a problem for us lovers of the Imperial! 

Paolo


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## Casiquire (Aug 3, 2021)

Timbre shift actually sounds more useful than I expected but i still see it as a special flavor and not as something I'd use often. 

As far as the rest of the product, dang. This is really good. The responsiveness is really not far off from Pianoteq because of the insane amount of dynamic layers which is exactly what I was hoping for. It obviously doesn't come close to the type of customization you can do with Pianoteq but what you lose in that regard, you make up for in microphone positions with different colors and a more authentic room sound, both of which can be powerful tools for shaping the sound. I got the Bösie 280VC.


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## sostenuto (Aug 3, 2021)

Absolute fav would be VSL Synchron Bosendorfer Bundle fitting personal budget ! 🤪 
Instant buy. 🙏🏻 (_in my craziest dreams_)


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## johanibraaten (Oct 17, 2021)

CGR said:


> Handy plugin. I remember seeing a similar plugin for 64bit DAWs, but can't remember the name.


Hi.

Tis is a very good program for altering the velocity curve. You can even do it on note-per-note basis.





VelPro: Springbeats MIDI Velocity Curve Changer for Windows® and Mac


Download Springbeats VelPro for Windows® and Mac. Change MIDI velocity curves to make notes coming from your MIDI controller sound better.




springbeats.com


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## johanibraaten (Oct 18, 2021)

Hi, I'm new to this forum and just found this thread.

I've recently purchased the standard version of the Synchron CFX. I think it's a beautiful piano and the autencity when playing it is amazing. There are some things that I find annoying about it though. First, the tuning is really not great. There are a few notes that's really out of tune, especially in the two highest octaves. There are also some notes that are different tuned in different velocity layers. Second, there seems to be a lack of really soft velocity layers (pp-pppp), this is escecially noticeable in the C2-C3 range. I also think the voicing is a little uneven. Maybe this is a considered approach by VSL to make it more lifelike but it bothers me a little when using it for playing/practicing. With that said, it's one of the most realistic feeling/sounding digital piano/VI:s I have ever played and it's amazing how naturally it shifts timbre through the dynamics (and it's very dynamic).


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## chopin4525 (Oct 18, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> Absolute fav would be VSL Synchron Bosendorfer Bundle fitting personal budget ! 🤪
> Instant buy. 🙏🏻 (_in my craziest dreams_)


Feel the same.


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## CeDur (Nov 19, 2021)

My Vienna Key finally came yesterday and I installed demo licence for Concert D-274 Light. I wish I could go back in time around a year, stop complaining about VSL dongle-based licencing and order Synchron Piano Bundle instead of spending money on other piano VIs. From technical point of view, this is the ultimate piano software, no doubts. Playability is great, dynamic range is great, detail is great, well, even the player software is! And I've only tried Light.

Now I'm wondering: anyone having both VSL CFX and 280VC - which one do you use more? I was hoping for the CFX to be on sale in the upcoming BF deal, but it seems only Stage B recorded pianos will (280VC, Bluthner, Bösendorfer Upright). Due to current EUR exchange rate to my local currency (damn inflation) I have to choose only one and do it wisely. Listening to some demos I prefer 280VC, but in most cases CFX. I play mostly pop, just a bit of simple jazz, contemporary piano ballads, sometimes use piano as an accompaniment for the vocalist (in rather slow-paced songs), classical music - very rarely. Yamaha seems to be a better fit, but I don't know, maybe I'm spoiled by one event, where I had Yamaha S6 and Bosendorfer Imperial available to play side by side and I much preffered the Yamaha. I know I have to choose on my own, but again, questions to the owners, for this kind of music, what would you choose?


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## cfodeebiedaddy (Nov 19, 2021)

CeDur said:


> Now I'm wondering: anyone having both VSL CFX and 280VC - which one do you use more?


Personally, the VSL CFX is my desert island piano VI. I think it can do anything...but the 280 is my 2nd fave Synchron piano. I'd say the 280 is a hair more even in its regulation (i.e., tuning of unisons) but I just love the basic tone of the Yamaha too much for it to lose its #1 spot because of that.

IIRC, weren't you looking at the Production Voices 300?


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## CeDur (Nov 19, 2021)

I have a few pianos from Production Voices, but Production Grand 2 (Yamaha C7) is my favorite. I like PV sampling approach, so bought 300 Grand Compact (it's only 29$). It's great, but I doubt even the full version will match VSL qualities. I was simply amazed by this Concert-D274 light (from technical standpoint at least, because I'm not so much after Hamburg Steinway sound).

Aaah, it seems VSL CFX gets more love among users than 280VC. To be honest, the biggest reason I'm considering it instead is the BF deal they announced.

@cfodeebiedaddy do you have Standard or Full CFX?


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## cfodeebiedaddy (Nov 19, 2021)

I ummed and ahhed about getting the full version of the CFX, but it only offered one additional close mic...I thought the other standard-->full upgrades gave me more for my money! So it's the standard version I love! I got the compact 300 as well (had to have a fourth CFX...), and it's spectacular value. 

The 280VC gets a *lot* of love over at the PianoWorld forums, BTW. If you got it I'm sure you'd really like it - it's very versatile! That said, if I could only one it would be the CFX, hands down.


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## Buz (Nov 19, 2021)

It sounds like a perfect situation for their 14-day refund policy. I'm another one who loves the CFX, but based on what you wrote the 280VC could be ideal. Even if you end up returning it, at least you will be 14 days closer to the next CFX sale.


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## CGR (Nov 19, 2021)

FWIW, I don't have the VSL CFX, but have the full version of the VSL 280VC (after upgrading from Standard - the extra mics make a considerable difference in shaping the sound & depth). For me already owning the Garritan CFX and NI Noire CFX, the 280VC was a unique proposition, and a different colour/character compared to a Yamaha CFX.

I also picked up the Production Voices 300 Grand CFX Compact and will likely upgrade to the full 9 mic, (up to) 36 velocity layer Kontakt version when released next year, so will resist the temptation of the VSL CFX.


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## CeDur (Nov 19, 2021)

One more round with their audio demos. I especially like those by Nicholas Decrescent. Comparing CFX, Bösendorfer Imperial and 280VC it seems I like 280VC the least. I hope they will deploy some demo licences during BF, because what I hear might be a different vs what I will feel when playing.

Imperial seems to have some kind of magic in its tone! CFX has less magic, but seems to be a tad more versatile.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 19, 2021)

CGR said:


> I also picked up the Production Voices 300 Grand CFX Compact and will likely upgrade to the full 9 mic, (up to) 36 velocity layer Kontakt version when released next year, so will resist the temptation of the VSL CFX.


$29 - BOUGHT!

Update: Lovely sound - nicer than their Production Grand Compact, I think.


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## Chamberfield (Nov 23, 2021)

I just noticed the 280VC is on sale for black friday. Question for owners... is it worth it to get the Full version, or is the standard library sufficient?


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## lumcas (Nov 23, 2021)

I've got them all so far, but if I had to pick only one, it would be the Bluthner. It's so unique and versatile at the same time, just a tad smaller sound, but very open. The CFX is also a stellar library when you need your typical big concert grand sound. Yes, Synchron pianos aren't cheap, but man, they saved me a ton of cash already. I'm not interested in any other new piano library anymore (ok, maybe except for "character" piano libraries)


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## star.keys (Nov 23, 2021)

In case anyone is interested, I’m selling all my VSL synchron pianos… Bosendorfer imperial and upright full, CFX full, Steinway standard


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## CGR (Nov 23, 2021)

Chamberfield said:


> I just noticed the 280VC is on sale for black friday. Question for owners... is it worth it to get the Full version, or is the standard library sufficient?


I upgraded from Standard to Full in June this year. For me, it was worth it for the extra depth and "3D-ness" the additional mics bring to the sound. My go-to mix is the Tube + Main + Surround. The Tube mics in particularly capture some body & warmth I wasn't able to achieve by EQ & compression on the Standard Close or Mid mics, and also have a different character in the stereo image.


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## Chamberfield (Nov 23, 2021)

CGR said:


> I upgraded from Standard to Full in June this year. For me, it was worth it for the extra depth and "3D-ness" the additional mics bring to the sound. My go-to mix is the Tube + Main + Surround. The Tube mics in particularly capture some body & warmth I wasn't able to achieve by EQ & compression on the Standard Close or Mid mics, and also have a different character in the stereo image.


That's good to know, thanks! I have to say whenever I listen to 280VC demos I always forget I'm listening to a virtual instrument. I may have to bite the bullet this weekend.


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## PaulieDC (Nov 23, 2021)

CGR said:


> I upgraded from Standard to Full in June this year. For me, it was worth it for the extra depth and "3D-ness" the additional mics bring to the sound. My go-to mix is the Tube + Main + Surround. The Tube mics in particularly capture some body & warmth I wasn't able to achieve by EQ & compression on the Standard Close or Mid mics, and also have a different character in the stereo image.


Exactly, excellent assessment. I went Full also this year. The Tube mic is the Neumann M149... and is worth the price of admission. Same with the Steinway D274, you have to get Full to get the tube and ribbon mics.

Here's the 280VC mic list. Besides the Tube/Main/Surround, I like turning up the M149 (#2 mic) and ooching in the AKG 414 (#4 mic) which creates a great tighter sound with those two mics. A slight 1-2db dip at 600Hz on the AKG C414 takes out just enough schmootz to make it just a tad sweeter.






Alao, cutting the Timbre control on the UI to -2 or -3 takes out the brittleness that you get from Synchron. Sounds muffled at first but give your ears a minute to adjust. The C5-G7 range sounds a bit more real doing that, to me anyway!


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## mxbf (Nov 28, 2021)

Chamberfield said:


> I just noticed the 280VC is on sale for black friday. Question for owners... is it worth it to get the Full version, or is the standard library sufficient?


I also came here to ask this question. I just bought the Bösendorfer 280VC Standard yesterday and personally, I was somewhat blown away.

I had wanted to get the Bösendorfer Imperial because to me, it sounded "huger" and more capable of those crazy piano stuff like Prokofiev Concertos. But the price is much higher and so is the file size. Also, multiple reviewers seem to say that the 280VC is the better option.

After weighing options for many hours I decided to try the 280VC since all signs point to that being the most reasonable choice. And I went in and did some very chaotic noisy stuff with the low registers, high velocities, and just throwing all kinds of sounds at it.

I was floored. The sound is really almost like a classical recording. Maybe more than "almost." I am not a player, I only do MIDI composing so I can't speak to the performance aspect. What's impressive is the dynamic variety and how amazing it sounds when you go to high velocities in all the registers. To my ears, it sounds very "fine art."

Still I'm going to use the 14 day return policy to demo the Bösendorfer Imperial just to make absolutely certain that I'm going the right way.


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## keepitsimple (Jan 30, 2022)

Holy Cannoli that mid 1 mic on the CFX sounds absolutely perfect by itself. Makes sense since it’s positioned beside the lid which makes it a very convincing/familiar recording sound to the ear. 

Man I’m glad I have those pianos ( only two: CFX and 280). Always something new to fiddle with and discover.


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## CGR (Jan 30, 2022)

There's something about the VSL Bosendorfer Imperial which draws me in every time:


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## PaulieDC (Mar 28, 2022)

keepitsimple said:


> Holy Cannoli that mid 1 mic on the CFX sounds absolutely perfect by itself. Makes sense since it’s positioned beside the lid which makes it a very convincing/familiar recording sound to the ear.
> 
> Man I’m glad I have those pianos ( only two: CFX and 280). Always something new to fiddle with and discover.


I didn't see this reply when you posted, I'm trying the Mid 1 mic tonight after work!


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## keepitsimple (Mar 29, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> I didn't see this reply when you posted, I'm trying the Mid 1 mic tonight after work!


Dewitttt


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## CeDur (Jun 16, 2022)

I have CFX Standard and got demo licence for Full. I had high hopes for Close 2 mic, but it occured I like Close 1 much more. On the other hand, I prefer surround mics over Room-mix or Decca Tree config for room sound. Mid2 doesn't sound different enough from Mid1 for me. Tough choice, but I would probably stay with Standard for CFX.

I'm just downloading both Bechstain and Bosendorfer uprights to test them. With those sale prices probably I'll get one of them if I like them.

What a nice move from VSL to offer those demo licences. I wish I could go back in time, not buy any other piano libraries and just get full Synchron Piano suite.


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## Gerbil (Jun 16, 2022)

Yes, being able actually test these properly is fantastic. It’s too difficult to assess whether or not a piano is going to work for you until you have it under your fingers with a few days spare to really get to tweak it. I wish all developers would offer this.


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## cfodeebiedaddy (Jun 16, 2022)

CeDur said:


> I have CFX Standard and got demo licence for Full. I had high hopes for Close 2 mic, but it occured I like Close 1 much more. On the other hand, I prefer surround mics over Room-mix or Decca Tree config for room sound. Mid2 doesn't sound different enough from Mid1 for me. Tough choice, but I would probably stay with Standard for CFX.
> 
> I'm just downloading both Bechstain and Bosendorfer uprights to test them. With those sale prices probably I'll get one of them if I like them.
> 
> What a nice move from VSL to offer those demo licences. I wish I could go back in time, not buy any other piano libraries and just get full Synchron Piano suite.


It's useful to hear your thoughts on the close 2 mic on the CFX - it's my favourite of the Synchron pianos, but I've held off upgrading to full because it only gets you the one additional close mic.

I like both the uprights! The Bosendorfer was my entry point to the world of VSL and I love it. I'm still getting to know the Bechstein, but get the sense that as lovely as it can sound, it's not as versatile as the Bosie.


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## CeDur (Jun 16, 2022)

Gerbil said:


> Yes, being able actually test these properly is fantastic. It’s too difficult to assess whether or not a piano is going to work for you until you have it under your fingers with a few days spare to really get to tweak it. I wish all developers would offer this.


Indeed. I've bought too many libraries with no return or resell option which are not on my hard drive anymore. Very fair approach from VSL. I bought VC280 at one point and returned it with not a single dollar lost.



cfodeebiedaddy said:


> It's useful to hear your thoughts on the close 2 mic on the CFX - it's my favourite of the Synchron pianos, but I've held off upgrading to full because it only gets you the one additional close mic.


Close 2 is warmer than Close 1, so if you like it warm, it might be worth for you. I'm after more 'detailed' and 'direct' sound. I find adding a bit of Close 2 to Close 1 is a nice combination, but not nice enough to justify the upgrade. Still, with the demo available for everyone you can try for your own


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## CeDur (Jun 17, 2022)

OK, I'm testing Synchron Pianos one by one. Can anyone confirm some of the 'issues' I've experienced?

Bluthner's keys around G3-A3 (where C4 is middle C), escpiecially A3, have high pitched 'ringing' at velocities higher than ~80. It doesn't sound like it's a natural thing that the real piano might have. It's exaggerated on some headphones I listen to, not so much noticable on others. Except that, I love the sound. Would be my no 1. choice for vintage, character sound if not that ringing.
New German Upright - anyone noticed the level of noise build up with those samples? I get that it's easier to get much higher SNR when recording grand piano (CFX or Steinway), but the noise is just, hmm, 'disturbing'. Play a few simple chords with sustain pedal depressed and it's very clear.
Only Steinway D and Bösendorfer Imperial left to test. CFX is still my fav so far.


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## Ben (Jun 17, 2022)

CeDur said:


> Bluthner's keys around G3-A3 (where C4 is middle C), escpiecially A3, have high pitched 'ringing' at velocities higher than ~80. It doesn't sound like it's a natural thing that the real piano might have. It's exaggerated on some headphones I listen to, not so much noticable on others. Except that, I love the sound. Would be my no 1. choice for vintage, character sound if not that ringing.


The Blüthner has aliquot strings that will resonate when playing the piano. If you don't like the resonances of certain keys I suggest to try the per-key EQ in the edit area and save the changes as user preset.



CeDur said:


> New German Upright - anyone noticed the level of noise build up with those samples? I get that it's easier to get much higher SNR when recording grand piano (CFX or Steinway), but the noise is just, hmm, 'disturbing'. Play a few simple chords with sustain pedal depressed and it's very clear.


What preset are you using? Have you added any plugins? Feel free to PM me an audio demo and the Cubase or MIDI file and I'll check it out!


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## cfodeebiedaddy (Jun 17, 2022)

I hadn't noticed noise build-up per se on the NGU, but I *do* think it's a fairly 'noisy' piano in terms of having a lot of resonances sort of swirling around. Doesn't sound like that's quite what you mean though, as for me it's a comforting sound rather than a disturbing one! (Totally agree on the CFX, BTW...there's magic in that instrument).


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## Dietz (Jun 17, 2022)

cfodeebiedaddy said:


> (Totally agree on the CFX, BTW...there's magic in that instrument).


+1!


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## smellypants (Jun 17, 2022)

I have them all now and they are all amazing (everything VSL does is).

My personal fav is the Bosendorfer Upright.


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## CeDur (Jun 17, 2022)

@Ben I've sent you a PM with a short video demonstrating what I'm talking about the German Upright. Regarding Bluthner - I wasn't aware I can EQ each not separately, what a great feautre! I edited out frequencies that were troubling for me.

Disclaimer: I am VERY sensitive to noise in samples, probably more than others. For example each time I'm playing Garritan CFX the noise irritates me to the point I promise myself to delete it from my hard drive. It's not that I just notice it, it's like an alomst physical pain. Not an issue with VSL CFX though.


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## jdg78 (Jun 17, 2022)

I downloaded demos for the entire Synchron series and have been playing each of them successively for the past few days. 

So far, my favorites among the grands are the Bosendorfer Imperial (very warm and clear) and the Bluthner (magical!), followed closely by the Steinway. The Steinway sounded a bit brash and hard out of the box, but playing around with the mic settings and (especially) the velocity curve helped tame it down a bit, and I find it to be very expressive and powerful. 

Interestingly, the one that I was most curious to try was the CFX given the praise I've seen here and elsewhere, but I actually think I like it the least so far. It's nice, but strikes me as somewhat colorless and bland in comparison with the Imperial and Steinway. I plan to play around with it some more, so maybe my opinion will change, but that's my initial impression. 

The 280VC strikes me as very different - clear and punchy, but also a bit glassy and hard. I haven't made up my mind if I like it or not, but it definitely stands out, for better or worse.

Both the uprights are beautifully captured and have wonderful character. I would probably go for the Bosendorfer, but the new Bechstein has a great vintage vibe.

I already owned the Bosendorfer Imperial standard version, and after this will definitely be purchasing the Bluthner and probably the Steinway as well. Getting to try out the full mics for the Imperial has also been fun - they really help flesh out the sound. May have to spring for those eventually too...

Anyway, being able to demo all these is great (wish more companies would do this), but will certainly be hard on my wallet.


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## CGR (Jun 17, 2022)

jdg78 said:


> I already owned the Bosendorfer Imperial standard version, and after this will definitely be purchasing the Bluthner and probably the Steinway as well. Getting to try out the full mics for the Imperial has also been fun - they really help flesh out the sound. May have to spring for those eventually too...


Re. the Bosendorfer Imperial, do the extra mics in the full edition (in particular the Close 3 Neumann M149 tube mics) bring a noticeable fullness & depth to the sound? I have the Standard edition and am trying to justify going ahead with the upgrade!


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## fan455 (Jun 17, 2022)

Synchron pianos are now demo-able? Amazing!


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## Ben (Jun 17, 2022)

fan455 said:


> Synchron pianos are now demo-able? Amazing!


Yes! As long as the current sale is running.


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## SupremeFist (Jun 17, 2022)

CGR said:


> Re. the Bosendorfer Imperial, do the extra mics in the full edition (in particular the Close 3 Neumann M149 tube mics) bring a noticeable fullness & depth to the sound? I have the Standard edition and am trying to justify going ahead with the upgrade!


Definitely for me.


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## CGR (Jun 17, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> Definitely for me.


Thanks Steven - means a lot coming from you.


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## SupremeFist (Jun 17, 2022)

CGR said:


> Thanks Steven - means a lot coming from you.


Any time! In general I find the "close 1" mics on the VSL pianos I own (Bösendorfer Imperial, Bösendorfer Upright, Blūthner) to be somewhat bright and strident for my taste, so my own presets generally lead with the ribbon/tube close mic from the full. Happy to render some midi for you if it helps, or is it possible to demo the full mics if one already owns standard?


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## CGR (Jun 17, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> Any time! In general I find the "close 1" mics on the VSL pianos I own (Bösendorfer Imperial, Bösendorfer Upright, Blūthner) to be somewhat bright and strident for my taste, so my own presets generally lead with the ribbon/tube close mic from the full. Happy to render some midi for you if it helps, or is it possible to demo the full mics if one already owns standard?


Yes, that makes sense given the Close 1 is a pair of Sennheiser MKH 8040 SDC mics placed near the hammers:






Great for a quick transient, bright tone, but lacking in body & richness I'm sure the Tube or Ribbon mics would bring. Thanks for the offer to render some MIDI, but I think I'll grin and bare the big download (and finding the SSD space!) and trial the full version. I should start migrating to the iLok versions of my VSL pianos, so this may be the prompt.


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## fan455 (Jun 17, 2022)

Hi, I wonder how the sustain pedal works in Synchron Pianos. Did VSL sample pedal-down notes or sample the sympathetic resonance or simulate the sympathetic resonance? Thanks!


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## CGR (Jun 17, 2022)

These are the not-so-secret ingredients in capturing a grand piano's true tone it seems:

Royer SF-24 Stereo ribbon mic:






Neumann M149 tube mics:


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## Ben (Jun 17, 2022)

fan455 said:


> Hi, I wonder how the sustain pedal works in Synchron Pianos. Did VSL sample pedal-down notes or sample the sympathetic resonance or simulate the sympathetic resonance? Thanks!


We have sampled pedal up and pedal down for all our pianos. 
Sympathetic resonance is being simulated in the player (usually disabled by default for performance reasons).


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## fan455 (Jun 17, 2022)

Ben said:


> We have sampled pedal up and pedal down for all our pianos.
> Sympathetic resonance is being simulated in the player (usually disabled by default for performance reasons).


Thanks! I'm still a bit confused because AFAIK, sustain pedal has two functions: sustain all notes even if they've been released; create sympathetic resonance. Is it true? So pedal-down samples already include sympathetic resonance?


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## ptram (Jun 17, 2022)

CGR said:


> Re. the Bosendorfer Imperial, do the extra mics in the full edition (in particular the Close 3 Neumann M149 tube mics) bring a noticeable fullness & depth to the sound?


Unfortunately, I think they do.

Paolo


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## Ben (Jun 17, 2022)

fan455 said:


> So pedal-down samples already include sympathetic resonance?


If I'm not mistaken yes (I'm not a piano expert).


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## ptram (Jun 17, 2022)

fan455 said:


> sustain pedal has two functions: sustain all notes even if they've been released; create sympathetic resonance.


I think the calculated sympathetic resonance effect is not the one you get when the pedal is fully down, but the one you get when the dampers of the other played notes are up.

In this case, only the strings of the playing notes are free, and any other note can interact with them. You can't sample all the possible combinations, so you have to simulate it in some way. Calculating it is one of the ways.

Synchron pianos still miss the silent notes, so you can't use this effect for playing only harmonics, as in a Schoenberg's Three Pieces. Very unfair against a fellow Viennoise!

Paolo


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## Ben (Jun 17, 2022)

ptram said:


> I think the calculated sympathetic resonance effect is not the one you get when the pedal is fully down, but the one you get when the dampers of the other played notes are up.


Exactly.


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## fan455 (Jun 17, 2022)

ptram said:


> I think the calculated sympathetic resonance effect is not the one you get when the pedal is fully down, but the one you get when the dampers of the other played notes are up.
> 
> In this case, only the strings of the playing notes are free, and any other note can interact with them. You can't sample all the possible combinations, so you have to simulate it in some way. Calculating it is one of the ways.
> 
> ...


So it creates sympathetic resonance when pedal-up? It can really increase voices too much.


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## jdg78 (Jun 17, 2022)

CGR said:


> Re. the Bosendorfer Imperial, do the extra mics in the full edition (in particular the Close 3 Neumann M149 tube mics) bring a noticeable fullness & depth to the sound? I have the Standard edition and am trying to justify going ahead with the upgrade!


Yes, the additional close mics definitely add more body and fullness to the sound for the Imperial. I was hoping any difference they made would be subtle enough that I wouldn’t be tempted to get them, but it’s actually quite a noticeable bump in warmth and presence when they’re turned on.

It still sounds great with the standard mics, but even more so with the full.


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## PaulieDC (Jun 17, 2022)

CGR said:


> These are the not-so-secret ingredients in capturing a grand piano's true tone it seems:
> 
> Royer SF-24 Stereo ribbon mic:
> 
> ...


They ARE, kinda... definitely the secret sauce of the Steinway, only for the full owners though.


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## CGR (Jun 17, 2022)

jdg78 said:


> Yes, the additional close mics definitely add more body and fullness to the sound for the Imperial. I was hoping any difference they made would be subtle enough that I wouldn’t be tempted to get them, but it’s actually quite a noticeable bump in warmth and presence when they’re turned on.
> 
> It still sounds great with the standard mics, but even more so with the full.


Thanks - it's what I was hearing in the mic comparison section of the VSL product page. Those Close 1 Sennheiser MKH 8040 SDC mics over the hammers just cant be tweaked & processed to achieve what the Neumann M149 or Royer SF-24 mics are picking up, and the mic positioning is a key part of that too.


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## CeDur (Jun 18, 2022)

I mentioned I had VC280 Standard and returned it but now downloaded the full version for demo and I think in case of this instrument full is a must have. Especially the Neumann tube mic is gorgeous.

As far as I love CFX, I must admit there is something special (intimacy?) about pianos recorded at Stage B.


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## keepitsimple (Jun 18, 2022)

They are all great, but speaking as an audiophile and a listener, i have yet to find a piano library that sounds as perfect as the 280VC when listening to it on ANY device, even with the standard mics which by the way i think they sound great (you just have to flatten the EQ curve on the close mic).


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## jdg78 (Jun 18, 2022)

After playing around some more, the 280VC is starting to grow on me - it has a lot of clarity and immediacy, if not a ton of warmth. But it certainly has a very distinct sound profile, so I can see the appeal.

Still not feeling much of a connection with the CFX, though - does anyone have an optimal mic setup they would recommend for this one?


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## CeDur (Jun 18, 2022)

For CFX I usually choose Player Decca Tree preset, edit velocity curve, reduce reverb to -inf and pedal noise to ~ -7dB. For Player Room-mix preset I just leave room-mix mic + condenser, turn off mid1. I'm happy with that and don't feel the need to edit anything more. Those settings give me bright, clear tone with just a little bit of room.


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## Aitcpiano (Jun 18, 2022)

jdg78 said:


> After playing around some more, the 280VC is starting to grow on me - it has a lot of clarity and immediacy, if not a ton of warmth. But it certainly has a very distinct sound profile, so I can see the appeal.
> 
> Still not feeling much of a connection with the CFX, though - does anyone have an optimal mic setup they would recommend for this one?


I like using the two close mics on the CFX. Have you got the full version? I'll normally add a -1 timbre shift as well.


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## holywilly (Jun 18, 2022)

My top two are 280 and German Upright. 280 sounds super precise and well defined, where German Upright is warm and got characters. I might pick these 2 up.


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## Aitcpiano (Jun 18, 2022)

I'll normally will start with either the intimate surround or player surround to stereo preset with the CFX then ill slightly change the mic settings to taste, such as increasing the close 2 mic.


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## Aitcpiano (Jun 18, 2022)

holywilly said:


> My top two are 280 and German Upright. 280 sounds super precise and well defined, where German Upright is warm and got characters. I might pick these 2 up.


I also like the 280VC. Currently have the 280VC and the CFX. I found that I did need to increase the dynamic range slightly on the 280VC and also prefer using the full mics on it for the tube mic (close 2 mic). I'm also really liking the new german upright piano. Considering getting that one.


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## Rudianos (Jun 18, 2022)

How am I supposed to find enough HD space for these? Finally downloaded demo of all of them and stuffed them into every free nook and cranny I had available. Temporary right?

I have a fair amount of pianos so I decided to be choosy with this. Bottom line I cannot buy nor fit them all now.

So far just looked at the grands ...

280 ... very present sounding. But just did not hook me. Tried some different mics. Would I enjoy sitting down playing this? Ehhh...

Steinway did not hook me. I do love the Walnut Grand, Hammersmith, and Walker ... Not too much here, just waas not my favorite tone for this brand...

I am hooked on the Old Vienna Imperial. So much right there ... do dynamic. Nice clear tone. Synchronizing might be coming too??? The Synchron Imperial... just seems like it is holding back. I love the low range. Ehhh...

Bluhtner ... seems competent. I like Merriam demos on this, better than I can do. Will revisit settings.

Yamaha CFX - Yamaha has always sounded a bit ehh optimistic sounding. I guess I like a little depraved. And that is what I more or less heard with Condenser here. Then the Ribbon mic replaces. Night and Day. Drop dead gorgeous. Smooth Velvety with punch as needed.

I think I have a winner. But the night is young 29 days left.


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## CeDur (Jun 18, 2022)

It seems we have similar 'taste' for Steinways. I like Hammersmith and Walker, but I also do like VSL D. Testing it today. Before dismissing it, try to make velocity curve much harder. For other VSL pianos such a drastic adjustment is not needed on my digital piano, but for Steinway - it made it more controllable and I'm not feeling like playing forte all the time. It can really sound soft and warm.


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## fan455 (Jun 18, 2022)

I tried the Steinway and Yamaha. The sampling depth is so amazing. The most solo-able mics for me are mid 1 and mid 2. The Steinway has a good velocity mapping using the default linear curve, while the Yamaha is a bit more dynamic in terms of both volume and timbre change, which makes its expressiveness so brilliant. The attack of note sounds is overall decent, not too round, not too hard, with some edge, but a bit strident at high velocities. There seems to be a thin and ringing metallic sound in Steinway's mid-treble notes at higher velocities, which daunts me a bit... I love the CFX's bass notes particularly, which sometimes just feel so soothing to play. Synchron pianos really touch some incredible aesthetic I've never known before.

Thanks VSL for offering demo!


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## cfodeebiedaddy (Jun 18, 2022)

jdg78 said:


> After playing around some more, the 280VC is starting to grow on me - it has a lot of clarity and immediacy, if not a ton of warmth. But it certainly has a very distinct sound profile, so I can see the appeal.
> 
> Still not feeling much of a connection with the CFX, though - does anyone have an optimal mic setup they would recommend for this one?


These are my default settings; I turn the global sensitivity way down on this preset but stick with the default velocity curve.


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## Lambchops (Jun 19, 2022)

I use mainly Pianoteq but also have the NI pianos that come with Komplete and thus figured that I probably have too many pianos already although I only really use Pianoteq regularly. (v7 the middle one). 
But this thread is making me want to demo a VSL piano.


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## SupremeFist (Jun 19, 2022)

Lambchops said:


> I use mainly Pianoteq but also have the NI pianos that come with Komplete and thus figured that I probably have too many pianos already although I only really use Pianoteq regularly. (v7 the middle one).
> But this thread is making me want to demo a VSL piano.


Man, they are _so_ much better than the NI pianos. (Except Una Corda and Noire arguably, which are their own things.)


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## Rudianos (Jun 19, 2022)

Lambchops said:


> I use mainly Pianoteq but also have the NI pianos that come with Komplete and thus figured that I probably have too many pianos already although I only really use Pianoteq regularly. (v7 the middle one).
> But this thread is making me want to demo a VSL piano.


Definitely worth it. And it takes time to get the settings right and the tone to work with your personality, keyboard. 30-day trials are very much appreciated


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## Casiquire (Jun 19, 2022)

Lambchops said:


> I use mainly Pianoteq but also have the NI pianos that come with Komplete and thus figured that I probably have too many pianos already although I only really use Pianoteq regularly. (v7 the middle one).
> But this thread is making me want to demo a VSL piano.


I love Pianoteq and have used it for years, however the real thing, well-sampled, is superior. My mind has been changed. If you need flexibility, Pianoteq can get you almost anything you want, but if you need realism, the real thing is better. Especially the weird twang that Pianoteq has in its lower registers. Someone here described it as a "rubber band" sound and I can hear exactly what they mean. 

Modern piano libraries tend to have so many layers that the "unlimited layers" smoothness of Pianoteq doesn't really set it apart anymore either. I'm not a conservatory trained virtuoso or anything, but I've been playing since I was four and for my tastes, I don't feel I'm missing layers or any control that I normally reach for in Pianoteq.

Definitely give the demo a try. VSL's pianos have a good reputation, but you will see some mixed reviews depending on taste. If you don't like one, it might be worth trying out another. If it's free why not!


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## holywilly (Jun 20, 2022)

Anyone here is using VSL pianos for film scoring? I do find all VSL pianos are great for classical, jazz and solo works, or I should ask how do people use VSL pianos for intimacy?

I mostly use Keyscape (cinematic piano preset with some tweak) for all my scores.

These are examples of how I use pianos for scoring (I’m no virtuoso):


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## Aitcpiano (Jun 20, 2022)

I've been trying out all the synchron pianos since demo. Thinking of getting another one of them but have no idea which one. Was thinking one of the uprights. I already have the CFX and the 280VC. However, on briefly testing them all just now, mainly using the player surround to stereo and intimate surround to stereo presets. I'm finding that I really like the steinway. It may even been one of my favourites. I find the ribbon mic and tube really makes a big difference for the steinway and would definitely go for the full version on that piano.

Still really liking the CFX though, that's probably my second or first place one. I don't like the sound of the bosendorfer imperial as much as the CFX and steinway. Surprisingly the 280VC I did not like as much when doing a direct comparison, a little more of a harsh sound and less dynamic than the other pianos, maybe this one just need a little more editing and customising? So now i'm trying to decide whether to add the steinway or get one of the uprights. Not sure which to go for.


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## Marcus Millfield (Jun 21, 2022)

I've been demoing most of the Synchron pianos and found the quality of the CFX to be rather outstanding. 

Response and dynamic range is incredible for a sampled piano. Especially addictive is the beautiful, airy sound of the room when playing in the upper registry with the Intimate Decca Tree Surround to Stereo preset. My biggest issue, is that worth the €355? That's a lot of money for a piano library, even one as good as this.


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## Ben (Jun 21, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> My biggest issue, is that worth the €355? That's a lot of money for a piano library, even one as good as this.


It takes over a month to sample such a piano. And then our editing team does their magic, which takes even more time.

Recording a piano is quite a challenge these days, as Synchron Stage is booked out most of the time.


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## CeDur (Jun 21, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> My biggest issue, is that worth the €355? That's a lot of money for a piano library, even one as good as this.


I own (or owned at some point) most of discussed and popular piano libraries (I think I've reached over >20). VSL CFX is the only one I have completely zero regrets buying (even considering the fact I missed the previous sale and got Standard for regular price). It does not have a single flaw that makes me 'tired' of it or think 'if it only had that or that'.

If you like the CFX and 355€ is too much, maybe go for the Standard and later upgrade if you ever feel the need.


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## smellypants (Jun 21, 2022)

Ben said:


> It takes over a month to sample such a piano. And then our editing team does their magic, which takes even more time.
> 
> Recording a piano is quite a challenge these days, as Synchron Stage is booked out most of the time.


Interesting... Nice to hear the stage is successful!

How many more Synchron releases do you think are planned for this year?


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## Marcus Millfield (Jun 21, 2022)

Ben said:


> It takes over a month to sample such a piano. And then our editing team does their magic, which takes even more time.
> 
> Recording a piano is quite a challenge these days, as Synchron Stage is booked out most of the time.


Don't get me wrong Ben, I'm not criticizing VSL's price on their products. I own a lot of your libraries and find the prices more than fair for the quality!

My comment was meant as an internal dialogue about spending that amount of money on another piano, even one as good as this


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## Ben (Jun 21, 2022)

smellypants said:


> How many more Synchron releases do you think are planned for this year?


A few


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## smellypants (Jun 21, 2022)

Ben said:


> A few


Couldn't of asked for a better answer!


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## cfodeebiedaddy (Jun 21, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> I've been demoing most of the Synchron pianos and found the quality of the CFX to be rather outstanding.
> 
> Response and dynamic range is incredible for a sampled piano. Especially addictive is the beautiful, airy sound of the room when playing in the upper registry with the Intimate Decca Tree Surround to Stereo preset. My biggest issue, is that worth the €355? That's a lot of money for a piano library, even one as good as this.


I've been more than happy - ecstatic actually - with the standard version of VSL CFX. I've 'upgraded' most of the pianos to full versions, but the CFX is my #1 even without the extra mics.

I honestly can't sing its praises enough.


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## chopin4525 (Jun 21, 2022)

Ben said:


> It takes over a month to sample such a piano. And then our editing team does their magic, which takes even more time.
> 
> Recording a piano is quite a challenge these days, as Synchron Stage is booked out most of the time.


Don't you have the older facilities still active as well?


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## Zanshin (Jun 21, 2022)

I thought I'd be buying a Stage B piano in this sale but I think I'm a scoring stage piano person! I think it's probably because I'm not a piano player (my left hand wants to twiddle knobs and my right hand has 2 or 3 useful digits), and really, when I'm demoing these it's with the intent to use as part of an orchestral piece or for sketching. But none of the Stage B pianos really grabbed me.

I have CFX standard right now, and I haven't tried the Steinway yet, but I think I'm going to be a Imperial owner too. The CFX is sexy and modern, but the Imperial is like BIG and DRAMATIC. I also think I want the full version, and now also the full mics for the CFX (but $$$$$ and 500+ GB!!!!!)

It's been great to demo these though


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## fan455 (Jun 26, 2022)

Hi, has anyone found that for Synchron Steinway's condenser, ribbon and mid mic perspectives, the right channels sound warmer than the left channels?


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## CeDur (Jun 27, 2022)

@Ben have you guys considered adding a dedicated 'Presets' section to your webpage, where registered users can upload their presets? I know there is a forum topic, but not as convenient as a dedicated subpage would be (with rating, no. of downloads, upload date etc.).


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## Ben (Jun 27, 2022)

CeDur said:


> @Ben have you guys considered adding a dedicated 'Presets' section to your webpage, where registered users can upload their presets? I know there is a forum topic, but not as convenient as a dedicated subpage would be (with rating, no. of downloads, upload date etc.).


Not yet, but it's on my wishlist. Until then the VSL forum is the best place to share these.


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## pianistje (Jun 27, 2022)

I have the Bösendorfer standard versions of the Imperial, VC280 and the upright . I upgraded my favorite ,the VC280, to ‘full‘ the other day and must say i really dig the tube mic. Certainly going to try the Steinway and CFX in full now…


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## SupremeFist (Jun 27, 2022)

pianistje said:


> I have the Bösendorfer standard versions of the Imperial, VC280 and the upright . I upgraded my favorite ,the VC280, to ‘full‘ the other day and must say i really dig the tube mic. Certainly going to try the Steinway and CFX in full now…


I also wouldn't want to be without the extra mics in the full versions of Imperial and Upright...


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## Rudianos (Jun 29, 2022)

Ended up with CFX Full. That was the one that stood with me. And it was a big surprise that it would be this one! The way they did that one just allow me to naturally breathe through the instrument. And what tone! ... Not to say I did not want them all, space constraints and $$$.

If VSL ever releases Synchron Prime Pianos "Ribbon and Tubes" edition... I will revist!


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## Zanshin (Jun 29, 2022)

Rudianos said:


> Ended up with CFX Full. That was the one that stood with me. And it was a big surprise that it would be this one! The way they did that one just allow me to naturally breathe through the instrument. And what tone! ... Not to say I did not want them all, space constraints and $$$.


I too may just upgrade to full CFX rather than pick up the Synchron Imperial. The CFX just "feels" good. I am still curious about the old Imperial though


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## PaulieDC (Jun 29, 2022)

Ben said:


> Yes, there is a difference between "poorly sampled" and "I personally don't like the sound of this piano".
> Personally the least favorite piano sound from our Synchron Pianos is the Concert D - I know it's sampled with the highest quality and I know many love it, still for my taste the Yamaha and especially the Bösendorfers sound better. I would still sometimes choose the Concert D over the other pianos if it fits better the current project.
> If I had to choose only one virtual piano to use for the rest of my live it would probably be the Synchron Bösendorfer 280VC, or the Synchron Imperial...


I know this post is over a year old, but I had thought the same thing, that the Steinway D was not so hot. In fact I bought it in 2019, then returned it (you'll find out that was more my fault then the library). So I decided to download it once and for all with the current demo licenses, now having an SL88 Grand controller... last time I had an M-Audio junk box with the velocity curve capability of a whisk broom. Got the Steinway demo last week, and out of the box, most of the presets aren't great. I spent a couple hours working with the tube, ribbon, condenser and surround mics, and with no altered EQ I found a mix that I fell in love with, and this is from a die-hard Garritan guy. There's excellent piano timbre in the library, you just have to dig for it and you absolutely need the mics from the full license. I just recently sold my Komplete library and will now happily be purchasing the Steinway. _This was not the outcome I expected when I downloaded the demo last week!_ I will add that the Synchron room is a bit hard for piano sampling and so I limit the Surround mics (not fully) and add a Lexicon Random Hall, but I tell you, the close mics (Neumann and Royer) steal the show.


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## Rudianos (Jun 29, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> I too may just upgrade to full CFX rather than pick up the Synchron Imperial. The CFX just "feels" good. I am still curious about the old Imperial though


youd love it so up front and dynamic! I hope they love it in the convert. Synchron Stage ... add half pedal ... the works


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## fan455 (Jun 30, 2022)

The cfx is my favorite of the synchron pianos too. It has noticably more warmth and mellow singing tone compared to d and 280vc (though it was recorded in a smaller place, it sounds still colder than cfx to me?). Its color feels like white to me, warm and shinny. Maybe some notes in the upper 2 octaves are a bit strident but it's the familiar sparkle Yamaha sound to me. I listened to all its mics and feel most comfortable with the mix of ribbon (right channel) and high stereo (right channel), both very warm sounding without too hard attack.

The room mix mic and presets give a bit muddy sound, maybe due to microphones' delay or added delay fx? When I play mics individually without fx, they sound much clearer, even the far mics.


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## cfodeebiedaddy (Jun 30, 2022)

Rudianos said:


> If VSL ever releases Synchron Prime Pianos "Ribbon and Tubes" edition... I will revist!


Blimey, I'd love this. Something like the Embertone Walker system where you could buy individual extra mic positions would be amazing. I don't have any need for multiple surround options, so it always feels like I'm paying for a lot I don't use when I upgrade a standard package to a full one. 

@Ben , you can make this happen, right?


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## Rudianos (Jul 1, 2022)

cfodeebiedaddy said:


> Blimey, I'd love this. Something like the Embertone Walker system where you could buy individual extra mic positions would be amazing. I don't have any need for multiple surround options, so it always feels like I'm paying for a lot I don't use when I upgrade a standard package to a full one.
> 
> @Ben , you can make this happen, right?


It is a great idea... TBH I will only seldom use more than the Ribbon mic on that CFX. It is a gorgeous close mic for this piano it works perfectly with the Yamaha ... they are a match made in heaven... The others are good but I like putting the piano in my own space. So out of obligation they are living on my hard drive unused ... will see.

I would pay $120 per single mic as an alternative. Because I know also if I want more VSL is good with crossgrade upgrades.


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## DJiLAND (Jul 1, 2022)

Should I get a Synchron B piano for pop and jazz? If so, which one?😋


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## jdg78 (Jul 1, 2022)

cfodeebiedaddy said:


> Blimey, I'd love this. Something like the Embertone Walker system where you could buy individual extra mic positions would be amazing. I don't have any need for multiple surround options, so it always feels like I'm paying for a lot I don't use when I upgrade a standard package to a full one.
> 
> @Ben , you can make this happen, right?


Totally agree on this. I’m very reluctant to spend the extra $200 or whatever it is for the full mic set when I’d probably never use some of the extra mids and surrounds, but if each mic was available a la carte like the Embertone Walker, I’d be more than happy to pay another $50-60 or so for the tube and ribbons alone. I suspect many others would as well. 

Think about it VSL! 😁


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## pcohen12 (Jul 1, 2022)

jdg78 said:


> Totally agree on this. I’m very reluctant to spend the extra $200 or whatever it is for the full mic set when I’d probably never use some of the extra mids and surrounds, but if each mic was available a la carte like the Embertone Walker, I’d be more than happy to pay another $50-60 or so for the tube and ribbons alone. I suspect many others would as well.
> 
> Think about it VSL! 😁


+100 😄


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## Petrucci (Jul 1, 2022)

DJiLAND said:


> Should I get a Synchron B piano for pop and jazz? If so, which one?😋


I only own 280VC, but I love it, I think it's very responsive and can be used in multiple cases)


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## HOmpOem (Jul 14, 2022)

Rob said:


> More than 100
> 
> 
> FireGS said:
> ...


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## AB3 (Nov 3, 2022)

DJiLAND said:


> Should I get a Synchron B piano for pop and jazz? If so, which one?😋


I have the Steinway D and there are preset adjustments that make it work very well for pop and jazz. Perhaps more so than for classical. It will punch through a mix. I suspect the same can be said for the Yamaha.


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## ptram (Dec 2, 2022)

Rudianos said:


> If VSL ever releases Synchron Prime "Ribbon and Tubes"


That would be a dream!









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