# Has anyone attempted to distribute their music from their own website?



## CatComposer (Mar 21, 2022)

I've been considering the best way to distribute my music, which is for a niche market.
Since this is unlikely to do well via current popular platforms (such as Spotify, Itunes),
and due to the dismal revenues from these companies, I'm considering a DIY alternative.

If I made my own website with mp3 downloads for a small purchase price, that would mean I keep 100% of revenue (minus costs),
which is far more appealing than any other option I can see.

The only downside is the possibility of digital theft, as mp3s cannot be copy-protected.
I believe blockchain format would help here, but is not widely known so not a viable option.
Setting up a Paypal button on your own site seems like the simplest (and most well-known) option.

The other risk is people uploading my songs in their own name onto youtube and spotify,
and I would be keen to hear what is the best solution to protect my intellectual property from this kind of theft.
As I'm in Australia, I'm guessing registering my music with the Australasian Performing Rights Association would be the way to go?

If I have my own website, would there be any reason to involve a third party, such as a music publisher?
They would track down performances of my songs to obtain royalties, am I right?

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on the pros and cons of my ideas, based on your own experience.


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## QuiteAlright (Mar 22, 2022)

I haven't done so, but I imagine your biggest challenge would be in discovery. How will people find your website in the first place?


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## CatComposer (Mar 22, 2022)

Through targeted advertising and radio stations that specialise in my kind of music.
There are plenty of ways I can think of, and I'm not concerned about that.

It's more the concept of tracking royalties that seems difficult to me and would require a specialist to be involved.

Also, even though popular apps like Spotify can play "User downloaded mp3s", I don't know how many users would find this concept too much trouble.


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## SupremeFist (Mar 22, 2022)

Bandcamp?


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## CatComposer (Mar 22, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> Bandcamp?


I had a look at that today.
They only take 15%, which is probably the best in the industry.
However, I think it had a much greater downside in that it creates a huge distraction
for my potential customers with all the other music on their site.
If I have gone to the work of generating leads, I don't want them getting distracted by other music.
Also, by adding a middle-man, it creates an additional layer of complexity which I don't want.


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## VVEremita (Mar 22, 2022)

I use bandcamp. Bandcamp pages can be individualized to a greater extent than Soundcloud. I think it is possible to create a presentation focused on your music and representing an album properly, especially when using the desktop version with custom headers. You could give it a try, create a page and see how it feels without making it public.

I don't know about their customer service as I never had to use. Everything works as it should and the overall experience has been smooth over the years. Not much has to be done to maintain your artist pages.

Sharing the platform with other musicians can be beneficial, as it helps your music being discovered. Bandcamp has nice music feeds, and they don't just favor the big names. There is a lot going on in terms of special interest-genres and there is always music to be discovered off the beaten track. But this might heavily depend on the genre.


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## Arbee (Mar 22, 2022)

Bandzoogle offers a pretty well integrated distribution solution, though I do find the platform a little clunky and limiting visually.


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## CatComposer (Mar 22, 2022)

VVEremita said:


> I use bandcamp. Bandcamp pages can be individualized to a greater extent than Soundcloud. I think it is possible to create a presentation focused on your music and representing an album properly, especially when using the desktop version with custom headers. You could give it a try, create a page and see how it feels without making it public.
> 
> I don't know about their customer service as I never had to use. Everything works as it should and the overall experience has been smooth over the years. Not much has to be done to maintain your artist pages.
> 
> Sharing the platform with other musicians can be beneficial, as it helps your music being discovered. Bandcamp has nice music feeds, and they don't just favor the big names. There is a lot going on in terms of special interest-genres and there is always music to be discovered off the beaten track. But this might heavily depend on the genre.


Knowing that someone from my favorite forum uses Bandcamp has made me think twice about using them. I might be pleasantly surprised if random people like my music!
Of course I could always have my own site as well and they will attract different groups of people.


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## CatComposer (Mar 22, 2022)

Arbee said:


> Bandzoogle offers a pretty well integrated distribution solution, though I do find the platform a little clunky and limiting visually.


I've had good experiences with finding website designers through sites like Fiverr, and that would give me more flexibility to customize things how I would like.
But that was a great suggestion indeed.


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## VVEremita (Mar 22, 2022)

Sseltenrych said:


> Knowing that someone from my favorite forum uses Bandcamp has made me think twice about using them. I might be pleasantly surprised if random people like my music!
> Of course I could always have my own site as well and they will attract different groups of people.


I think so. You could embedd the Bandcamp player on your site and save bandwith/storage, just in case that is a concern for you.

I have to say this though: Your mileage may vary. I think the big strength is the active and diverse community and the combination of hassle-free digital and physical webshop. I used to sell vinyl of extreme underground Metal, and it was perfect for that 😉 And I have seen several experimental drone/ambient sub-genres create some attention. I have not used it to distribute other genres (yet), so I guess you need to try out to see if there is a market for you.


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## IFM (Mar 22, 2022)

The cheapest advertising still (love it or hate it) is Facebook. In simple terms you can create a good video, then run that as a video view ad to a targeted audience in select countries. This builds up a warm audience that you are introducing your music to. 

Then once you have a sizable through play rate you can retarget a traffic ad for them to go visit your sites such as Bandcamp or a Shopify site. Shopify would at least let you use a landing page open event in the FB Pixel whereas Bandcamp only has Google Analytics. 

You also will want to prepare emails to nurture your new fans. Keep them engaged and you'll find some that will stick with you through it all.


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## CatComposer (Mar 22, 2022)

IFM said:


> The cheapest advertising still (love it or hate it) is Facebook. In simple terms you can create a good video, then run that as a video view ad to a targeted audience in select countries. This builds up a warm audience that you are introducing your music to.
> 
> Then once you have a sizable through play rate you can retarget a traffic ad for them to go visit your sites such as Bandcamp or a Shopify site. Shopify would at least let you use a landing page open event in the FB Pixel whereas Bandcamp only has Google Analytics.
> 
> You also will want to prepare emails to nurture your new fans. Keep them engaged and you'll find some that will stick with you through it all.


Aren't Facbook ads charged per click like Google?
It's a very targeted method for sure.

I was thinking also that the emails of fans would be precious, and if I used a site like Bandcamp,
I wouldn't know what their emails were.


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## CatComposer (Mar 22, 2022)

VVEremita said:


> I think so. You could embedd the Bandcamp player on your site and save bandwith/storage, just in case that is a concern for you.
> 
> I have to say this though: Your mileage may vary. I think the big strength is the active and diverse community and the combination of hassle-free digital and physical webshop. I used to sell vinyl of extreme underground Metal, and it was perfect for that 😉 And I have seen several experimental drone/ambient sub-genres create some attention. I have not used it to distribute other genres (yet), so I guess you need to try out to see if there is a market for you.


I hadn't considered the cost of bandwidth yet, but that does seem like a clever idea.


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## IFM (Mar 22, 2022)

Sseltenrych said:


> Aren't Facbook ads charged per click like Google?
> It's a very targeted method for sure.
> 
> I was thinking also that the emails of fans would be precious, and if I used a site like Bandcamp,
> I wouldn't know what their emails were.


You can set it up depending on a number of different factors (impressions, landing page loads, conversions). It's very deep and I recommend something like indepreneur.io if you really want to learn how it all works.


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## Mornats (Mar 22, 2022)

I love the idea of Bandcamp and have bought from there with confidence (which I think is a benefit to your audience). It's an established site and trusted. I've started experimenting with putting some of my stuff on there but I've not promoted it yet so I don't think anyone's listening so I can't comment about that bit!


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## doctoremmet (Mar 22, 2022)

I’ve bought many Bandcamp albums from fellow members. I quite like the platform, I have a very cool and inspiring collection by great musicians on here.


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## VVEremita (Mar 22, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I’ve bought many Bandcamp albums from fellow members. I quite like the platform, I have a very cool and inspiring collection by great musicians on here.



And that is one of the recipes for success of bandcamp. Users don't just consume streaming on a faceless platform, they explore, discover, build collections and support musicians. Building a collection of digital musical treasures on bandcamp is an enjoyable experience. It's cooler than downloading mp3s and is built in a way that resembles physical collecting. A lot of artist pages (most of them?) are operated by the artists, so users feel closer to them and support them directly. 

If your niche is popular on bandcamp, I personally know of no platform that is more fruitful without demanding advertising or constant non-musical activity, like facebook.

But again, it might heavily depend on the genre. With certain genres, I had people reach out on the day of the upload, while other material kept being unnoticed.


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## VVEremita (Mar 22, 2022)

Sseltenrych said:


> Aren't Facbook ads charged per click like Google?
> It's a very targeted method for sure.
> 
> I was thinking also that the emails of fans would be precious, and if I used a site like Bandcamp,
> I wouldn't know what their emails were.


Now I sound like sales rep, but you can send messages to all supporters. 

But advertising like on Facebook is not possible. It's more about being discovered and keeping in touch.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 22, 2022)

Have you seen this site? I might try it out.

https://www.tunebud.com/


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## IFM (Mar 22, 2022)

Sseltenrych said:


> I was thinking also that the emails of fans would be precious, and if I used a site like Bandcamp,
> I wouldn't know what their emails were.


I forgot to mention, although you don't get the emails automatically like on a Shopify site, you do collect them and can download an excel file. More tedious for sure.


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## SupremeFist (Mar 22, 2022)

Sseltenrych said:


> Also, by adding a middle-man, it creates an additional layer of complexity which I don't want.


It actually _removes_ many layers of complexity. You don't have to set up your own hosting/payment system, etc etc. Plus as others have pointed out it's an ecosystem of engaged music-lovers that will help with discoverability of your own music. 

Really at this point Bandcamp has become the default way for people to directly support (even pretty high-profile) artists that they like and might have initially found via Spotify etc. There's no point trying to reinvent the wheel with a per-artist solution imo.


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## VVEremita (Mar 22, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> Really at this point Bandcamp has become the default way for people to directly support (even pretty high-profile) artists that they like and might have initially found via Spotify etc. There's no point trying to reinvent the wheel with a per-artist solution imo.



That's my experience as well. People deliberately go to bandcamp to support artists, even if they discovered them elsewhere. They even payed more and ordered records via bandcamp to directly support the artist, while ordering at big shops would have lowered shipping costs or enable combined shipping (don't judge this from an ecological point of view  ) - I do the same.


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## CatComposer (Mar 22, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> It actually _removes_ many layers of complexity. You don't have to set up your own hosting/payment system, etc etc. Plus as others have pointed out it's an ecosystem of engaged music-lovers that will help with discoverability of your own music.
> 
> Really at this point Bandcamp has become the default way for people to directly support (even pretty high-profile) artists that they like and might have initially found via Spotify etc. There's no point trying to reinvent the wheel with a per-artist solution imo.


Yes, you're right, it removes much of the complexity of management but there are bigger issues to consider.

I've been listening to horror-stories of musicians losing all their music from distrokid
(eg. )
And the big lesson to me is that it's unwise to put all your trust in one company to control your music hosting.

My music is 100% Christian and although that's not likely to be a reason to be banned, 
it all depends on the whim of the site managers.
Having my own site means my music career is not dependent on the whims of people I don't know.

If I'm going to depend on music as a career, I need a very reliable solution, and having my own website seems like a small cost compared to other costs (such as advertising etc).
If my advertising is feeding traffic to someone else's site, and that becomes a dead end,
I've just blown all my time and money on advertising.

These are the layers of complexity I was referring to.
I have set up my own business website before and didn't find it difficult.

Bandcamp does seem like a good site, and I'll probably have it as a secondary place to distribute my music. 
I'm glad you guys mentioned it, as I didn't realise how popular it was.


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## timprebble (Mar 22, 2022)

IFM said:


> The cheapest advertising still (love it or hate it) is Facebook. In simple terms you can create a good video, then run that as a video view ad to a targeted audience in select countries. This builds up a warm audience that you are introducing your music to.
> 
> Then once you have a sizable through play rate you can retarget a traffic ad for them to go visit your sites such as Bandcamp or a Shopify site. Shopify would at least let you use a landing page open event in the FB Pixel whereas Bandcamp only has Google Analytics.




I don't believe this is true. The cheapest advertising is free eg word of mouth. Maybe you mean cheapest PPC rate? Once you use FB advertising they kill all organic reach, so you are stuck using their advertising.

There is a great quote in the David Lynch book Catching the Big Fish: Meditation, Consciousness, and Creativity *"Fish where the fish are"*
You really cannot predict who may or may not like your music, but one thing is sure: if they can't find your music, they will never know. So if you want to connect with an audience of any kind, big or small, it is best to make discovery very easy. Put it where they may find it. Where is that? Do your research. Choose an example of something/someone/a band/whatever from same genre that you like and search to find where they make their music available and how they promote it.

re a publisher, APRA collect royalties whether you have a publisher or not. But they only collect royalties on music registered with them. So that is step 1: register every song or piece of music with them. (Others will have more insight on the value of a publisher but as I understand it, if they own your publishing then they own a degree of control, and they will want to get a financial return on owning your publishing. This may make them more motivated than you, but also maybe not. Every situation is unique)


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## CatComposer (Mar 22, 2022)

timprebble said:


> I don't believe this is true. The cheapest advertising is free eg word of mouth. Maybe you mean cheapest PPC rate? Once you use FB advertising they kill all organic reach, so you are stuck using their advertising.



Are you saying that the Google algorithm detects if you're using FB ads and will kill organic traffic to your site?
That's a huge disincentive to buy FB ads.

My first idea is to contact Christian radio stations, as they are the most likely to warm to my music and have a wide audience. There are hundreds of them around the world.
I don't think this will cost me anything, so definitely cheaper than FB.



timprebble said:


> re a publisher, APRA collect royalties whether you have a publisher or not. But they only collect royalties on music registered with them. So that is step 1: register every song or piece of music with them. (Others will have more insight on the value of a publisher but as I understand it, if they own your publishing then they own a degree of control, and they will want to get a financial return on owning your publishing. This may make them more motivated than you, but also maybe not. Every situation is unique)


This whole subject is mind-boggling and I'll have to do more research.
I read this thread the other day and showed me how little I understand:




__





PROs Agree to Full Reassignment of *Proceeds* of Performance Rights


I've just been told by a large production company that I must sign such a document to continue working with them. The agreement itself essentially side-steps the "can't give away your writer's share" policy by saying "you keep the share, but agree to pay us any money arising from it in...




vi-control.net


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## timprebble (Mar 22, 2022)

Sseltenrych said:


> Are you saying that the Google algorithm detects if you're using FB ads and will kill organic traffic to your site?
> That's a huge disincentive to buy FB ads.



Not Google, FB!
An example: I join FB and start sharing photos and posts of my work. Via the FB algorithm X people who are friends/followers etc on FB see my posts (not everyone, just X people that the FB algorithm somehow chooses) Maybe I then decide to buy some FB ads and target groups of people on FB. FB collect data on how many ad placements and how many clicks my paid ads generate. But when I go to share a post the old way on FB (not as an ad) it is now seen by very few. FB reduces your organic reach on FB, as it wants you to spend more on ads. That is how FB profits while being a 'free' platform.


I strongly suggest you contact APRA. They have knowledgeable people who can advise you as to the best approach for you with regards to publishing. FWIW I own all my own publishing. The first film I scored was a low budget indie film and accordingly their budget for the score was tiny. But even still, by default their contract claimed ownership of my publishing! I explained to them that really they cannot afford me, but I was prepared to do the project. But they sure as hell cannot afford to buy out my publishing! They conceded this immediately, but it did not stop them trying. Four film scores later and I own my publishing on all of them. But if you work for some producers and/or studios, they will force you to hand over publishing, or hire someone else who will. Talk to APRA.

https://www.apraamcos.com.au





Sseltenrych said:


> My first idea is to contact Christian radio stations, as they are the most likely to warm to my music and have a wide audience. There are hundreds of them around the world.
> I don't think this will cost me anything, so definitely cheaper than FB.
> 
> 
> ...


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## CatComposer (Mar 22, 2022)

timprebble said:


> Not Google, FB!
> An example: I join FB and start sharing photos and posts of my work. Via the FB algorithm X people who are friends/followers etc on FB see my posts (not everyone, just X people that the FB algorithm somehow chooses) Maybe I then decide to buy some FB ads and target groups of people on FB. FB collect data on how many ad placements and how many clicks my paid ads generate. But when I go to share a post the old way on FB (not as an ad) it is now seen by very few. FB reduces your organic reach on FB, as it wants you to spend more on ads. That is how FB profits while being a 'free' platform.
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I've just been reading over the APRA AMCOS website which has a lot of answers.
It's free to join and they pass on 87% of royalties to musicians.
If I didn't register, I assume I would not get any royalties.

It also seems that I don't need to hand over my music to a music publisher,
but I need to look into that more.


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## jonathanparham (Mar 24, 2022)

IFM said:


> The cheapest advertising still (love it or hate it) is Facebook. In simple terms you can create a good video, then run that as a video view ad to a targeted audience in select countries. This builds up a warm audience that you are introducing your music to.
> 
> Then once you have a sizable through play rate you can retarget a traffic ad for them to go visit your sites such as Bandcamp or a Shopify site. Shopify would at least let you use a landing page open event in the FB Pixel whereas Bandcamp only has Google Analytics.
> 
> You also will want to prepare emails to nurture your new fans. Keep them engaged and you'll find some that will stick with you through it all.


this sounds very much like Indepreneur methods


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## IFM (Mar 24, 2022)

jonathanparham said:


> this sounds very much like Indepreneur methods


That's because it is . It's not the only method I've studied but there is crossover amongst them.


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## jonathanparham (Mar 25, 2022)

IFM said:


> That's because it is . It's not the only method I've studied but there is crossover amongst them.


I bought a membership during the pandemic because they seemed to be on to using marketing well. Also, I got fed up with seeing all these other marketing programs for everything else EXCEPT music. I'll be honest, so much of their jargon is another language. But it sent me down a road of marketing-related things like mission and branding which I'm studying while I produce music. 
What other marketing programs for independent music have you studied?


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## IFM (Mar 25, 2022)

jonathanparham said:


> I bought a membership during the pandemic because they seemed to be on to using marketing well. Also, I got fed up with seeing all these other marketing programs for everything else EXCEPT music. I'll be honest, so much of their jargon is another language. But it sent me down a road of marketing-related things like mission and branding which I'm studying while I produce music.
> What other marketing programs for independent music have you studied?


It made sense to me because Indepreneur wasn't the 1st I did which was SMA (Savvy Musician Acadamy). Indepreneur does keep up with current trends more than SMA, but at the same time the original methods I learned with SMA work. I just like to take elements of both.


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## jonathanparham (Mar 25, 2022)

IFM said:


> It made sense to me because Indepreneur wasn't the 1st I did which was SMA (Savvy Musician Acadamy). Indepreneur does keep up with current trends more than SMA, but at the same time the original methods I learned with SMA work. I just like to take elements of both.


oh forgive my ignorance as maybe we discussed this at VI Control before. I just find so few folks interested in marketing.
What did you like about the Savvy Musician course? I think it's much more expensive than Indepreneur.


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## Ben E (Mar 25, 2022)

I use Bandcamp. I think the Bandcamp middleman actually reduces complexity -- for me anyway. And on certain Fridays Bandcamp waives their revenue share so you get 100% of the customer's money (minus a few cents for a transaction fee?) https://daily.bandcamp.com/features/bandcamp-fridays-update

Most of my sales come from people who've -- for whatever reason -- gone to my website and then were redirected. But every so often someone buys something just from browsing through Bandcamp. 

Also, you set a minimum price and then have the option to allow customers to pay more if they want to. You would be surprised how many customers decide to pay more just to support the artist. I had an $8 record that someone paid $50 for. This kind of thing has happened several times. I believe you can also set the price to "whatever you want to pay." A friend of mine did that and generated more income than he would have had he priced the music at market value and everyone had paid that price.


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## Dear Villain (Mar 25, 2022)

I write classical, orchestral and chamber music. I have in 5 years not been able to sell more than a handful of tracks through any platform. I am quite successful with grants, commissions, and live performances of my music, but just can't seem to find an internet audience. Many on this forum that have listened/commented/emailed me about my music have never actually "bought" it. I basically put it all out there for free on youtube, soundcloud, and my websites, so there's no incentive to buy unless one actually wants to show support with money. To be honest, emails/youtube comments are far more rewarding to me, but I also don't need to sell music for a living, so I'm not concerned with my inability to monetize my music.

Good luck however you decide to proceed!


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 25, 2022)

Dear Villain said:


> I write classical, orchestral and chamber music. I have in 5 years not been able to sell more than a handful of tracks through any platform. I am quite successful with grants, commissions, and live performances of my music, but just can't seem to find an internet audience. Many on this forum that have listened/commented/emailed me about my music have never actually "bought" it. I basically put it all out there for free on youtube, soundcloud, and my websites, so there's no incentive to buy unless one actually wants to show support with money. To be honest, emails/youtube comments are far more rewarding to me, but I also don't need to sell music for a living, so I'm not concerned with my inability to monetize my music.
> 
> Good luck however you decide to proceed!


Have you tried submitting to production libraries? I have had tv placements with original classical music.


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## IFM (Mar 25, 2022)

jonathanparham said:


> oh forgive my ignorance as maybe we discussed this at VI Control before. I just find so few folks interested in marketing.
> What did you like about the Savvy Musician course? I think it's much more expensive than Indepreneur.


It is more expensive for sure but LEAH has made her own methods work for her became very successful in the metal world. I like Indp. for the extra stuff. SMA helpped you with branding and only just recently has indp started doing that (haven't looked at it though)


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## GtrString (Mar 25, 2022)

Absolutely, I use Tunebud, which has been a great experience. https://www.tunebud.com

On this route, YOU are the music publisher, and should act accordingly. As a B2B proposition, there is no need to involve other publishers (where you are not the only client), nor sub publishers. Go directly to clients, have a music lawyer ready on hand (to validate contract templates, for advisory ect).

You should change side on the table - adopt a leader mindset, and depart from the follower mindset of getting accepted by libraries, publishers ect. It doesn't matter, they are competitors. Publishers also do not track down royalties for you, the PRO's do that and the aggregators tracks your sales on main platforms (Apple, Amazon ect). You have every tool needed available these days to DiY.

Publishers work to find opportunities and pitch your music, so this is what you need to become good at yourself (do research, advertise, network, wine & dine, hire an agent ect). Attend publisher seminars, do what the publishers do. Sharpen your pencil, prioritize yer calendar, hand out them cards, pick up the phone, solve problems, make good offers. Do it like your life depends on it.

This is entirely possible, go for it, you can do it!


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## Dear Villain (Mar 25, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Have you tried submitting to production libraries? I have had tv placements with original classical music.


PM'd you. Don't want to distract from OP's thread.


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## Arbee (Mar 25, 2022)

Dear Villain said:


> I write classical, orchestral and chamber music. I have in 5 years not been able to sell more than a handful of tracks through any platform. I am quite successful with grants, commissions, and live performances of my music, but just can't seem to find an internet audience. Many on this forum that have listened/commented/emailed me about my music have never actually "bought" it. I basically put it all out there for free on youtube, soundcloud, and my websites, so there's no incentive to buy unless one actually wants to show support with money. To be honest, emails/youtube comments are far more rewarding to me, but I also don't need to sell music for a living, so I'm not concerned with my inability to monetize my music.
> 
> Good luck however you decide to proceed!


There are two quotes on this forum in recent years that have stuck with me (apologies gents if I'm paraphrasing incorrectly, this is from memory).

From Daryl Griffith - "the only people who pay for music these days are those that have to".
From Charlie Clouser - "music these days is more like food than sculpture".

My takeaways from that (which mirror my own personal experience) are:

With a few exceptions, music as a stand alone product (not linked to other media), like every other digitised art form, has become a devalued consumable commodity. We skim the Internet, hear a few things we really like, maybe leave some really kind comments, and simply move on. No longer do we hand over our hard earned cash, lovingly remove a record or CD from its packaging, read the cover notes exhaustively, then hang on its every musical moment from start to finish.

Given the above context, tailoring and directing your music towards production companies and music libraries for paid media usage makes a lot of sense. There is always the possibility that one or more of your pieces starts to build a following, then you can perhaps start monetizing your music directly to the public more effectively.

In my mind, Max Richter's "On The Nature Of Daylight" has been a perfect example of an outstanding piece of music that was always perfectly suited to synch, even though it wasn't written originally for that purpose (to the best of my knowledge anyway). Its subsequent success speaks for itself.


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## Dear Villain (Mar 25, 2022)

Arbee said:


> There are two quotes on this forum in recent years that have stuck with me (apologies gents if I'm paraphrasing incorrectly, this is from memory).
> 
> From Daryl Griffith - "the only people who pay for music these days are those that have to".
> From Charlie Clouser - "music these days is more like food than sculpture".
> ...


Your thoughts (and the quotes you shared) are spot on, and reflect my own feelings, which is why I've long lost the will to make others find value in my work. Thankfully, my motivation to create is still strong and the few that do appreciate my music continue to make it a worthwhile pursuit.

I'll drop out now. Apologies for distracting from your thread, OP!


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## CatComposer (Mar 25, 2022)

Ben E said:


> I use Bandcamp. I think the Bandcamp middleman actually reduces complexity -- for me anyway. And on certain Fridays Bandcamp waives their revenue share so you get 100% of the customer's money (minus a few cents for a transaction fee?) https://daily.bandcamp.com/features/bandcamp-fridays-update
> 
> Most of my sales come from people who've -- for whatever reason -- gone to my website and then were redirected. But every so often someone buys something just from browsing through Bandcamp.
> 
> Also, you set a minimum price and then have the option to allow customers to pay more if they want to. You would be surprised how many customers decide to pay more just to support the artist. I had an $8 record that someone paid $50 for. This kind of thing has happened several times. I believe you can also set the price to "whatever you want to pay." A friend of mine did that and generated more income than he would have had he priced the music at market value and everyone had paid that price.


Yes, I like that idea - to have people pay whatever they can afford, with perhaps $1 per track as the default.
I think it's better to even give the option to let them download for $0 if they can't afford it.
At least through the process you can obtain their email so that you can establish them as a long-term fan.

It wasn't clear to me where you get more sales - your own website, or Bandcamp?
And have you figured out the reasons why?


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## CatComposer (Mar 25, 2022)

I like the way people are contributing their own experience and knowledge to this thread.
I have so much to learn.

If I can share my own perspective on the current problems with the music industry.
I agree that it was far better when people needed to buy a physical product like an LP, at least in terms of remuneration for the artist.

At the current rate of $0.004 per stream on Spotify, we would need to get 250,000 streams to earn $1000. No doubt Spotify is ripping us all off there.
And the music industry is full of sharks like Spotify.

On the other hand selling 1000 tracks on my own website seems more feasible.
For example, if I can find just 100 people who love my music to buy 10 tracks at $1 each, that's $1000 revenue.

If I don't upload to Spotify, Itunes and Youtube, then this will mean people will need to come to my website to get a copy of my music.
As someone said, "People will only buy it if they have to."

I can have playable tracks on my website, (like Soundcloud does) for people to browse.
Those are not difficult to embed.

Of course advertising is going to be a challenge, but through using a savvy advertising agent who is familiar with my genre, I think it might work.

It's taken me more than a year to become slightly proficient at music production, and I expect it will probably take longer than that to become savvy with music promotion and the business side of things.

It's amazing how many hats you need to wear now to succeed as a solo artist.
Singer, songwriter/composer, musician, music producer, publisher, businessman, etc.
Unless you have the cash to hire people for these roles, of course...


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## md11 (Mar 25, 2022)

I found this site the other day:
https://resonate.is/ 
has the bandcamp vibe but from what I understand it is more like a community owned co-op and reads like a fair concept for both artists and listeners.
maybe another option for the op?


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## Ben E (Mar 25, 2022)

Sseltenrych said:


> It wasn't clear to me where you get more sales - your own website, or Bandcamp?
> And have you figured out the reasons why?


I don't try to sell music through my own website.


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## Kyle Preston (Mar 26, 2022)

Sseltenrych said:


> If I don't upload to Spotify, Itunes and Youtube, then this will mean people will need to come to my website to get a copy of my music.
> As someone said, "People will only buy it if they have to."


Spotify built something far more convenient than Pirate Bay. They bet on convenience being more valuable to a person than the hours spent hunting for free music files. And they were right. Cynical, but right. 

Like Spotify, Bandcamp also began as an alternative to piracy. Their bet was that people would support artists they love directly if given the choice. They were right too, but on a smaller scale.

And that’s what this comes down to for those of us trying to make a living selling music, scale. Bandcamp’s model would theoretically scale to the size of Spotify, but it hasn’t. Why? Because convenience trumps nearly everything else in business. (That and major labels don’t put their releases on Bandcamp). Reducing friction is what Silicon Valley has done forever, of course Spotify was going to do the same, they’re a tech company.

As a listener, $10 a month gives you access to nearly all recorded music in history via Spotify. $10 on Bandcamp will you get you an album and maybe an EP, plus the satisfaction of giving money directly to an artist you love. The majority of people make the former, convenient (for them) choice. Some do a bit of both, most don’t.

It’s not fair, but it’s true.

Like the majority of us here, you probably write music in genres that are less “mainstream”. So when trying to earn income from music on DSPs, you need all the scale you can get. In the beginning, put it everywhere. Otherwise, this is you:


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## CatComposer (Mar 26, 2022)

Kyle Preston said:


> Spotify built something far more convenient than Pirate Bay. They bet on convenience being more valuable to a person than the hours spent hunting for free music files. And they were right. Cynical, but right.
> 
> Like Spotify, Bandcamp also began as an alternative to piracy. Their bet was that people would support artists they love directly if given the choice. They were right too, but on a smaller scale.
> 
> ...


Yes, you're right about the majority of people preferring convenience.
However, I'm hoping to find a minority who are willing to put in a small amount of effort
to obtain music that's very valuable to them.

I understand your view as someone immersed in the Spotify ecosystem.
It's probably hard to imagine any other means of music distribution being successful.

However, I've never used Spotify, and probably never will.
My fans are going to be people like me who live differently.
400 million people use Spotify which is a certainly a lot.
But that means more than 7 billion don't use Spotify!

It's "expected" for musicians to donate their music to Spotify, essentially for free, but I'm not willing to do that.
The thing is, my music is very different from mainstream music, and would be unappealing to the typical Spotify user anyway. 
As I said before, I plan to use targeted exposure on radio stations that play my niche of music,
and direct people to my website from there.
I only need to find perhaps 20 fans per week to be able to pay my rent, which would be impossible on Spotify at $0.004 per stream.

The image of someone throwing their music in the ocean seems to match throwing my music into the ocean of Spotify music and hoping someone finds it. I can't see that working.


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## Kyle Preston (Mar 26, 2022)

Sseltenrych said:


> I understand your view as someone immersed in the Spotify ecosystem.
> It's probably hard to imagine any other means of music distribution being successful.


On what you're trying to achieve, I attempted something similar years ago and it didn't go well. The internet itself is a far bigger ocean than Spotify. And power tends to centralize around a few players.

I say that as someone very-much immersed in the Spotify ecosystem AND as someone who continually pursues alternative methods.

In any case, I wish you the best of luck my friend, I really do! Artistic autonomy is one of the best things in life. Godspeed!


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## dcoscina (Mar 26, 2022)

I use Distrokid.


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## CatComposer (Mar 26, 2022)

Kyle Preston said:


> On what you're trying to achieve, I attempted something similar years ago and it didn't go well. The internet itself is a far bigger ocean than Spotify. And power tends to centralize around a few players.
> 
> I say that as someone very-much immersed in the Spotify ecosystem AND as someone who continually pursues alternative methods.
> 
> In any case, I wish you the best of luck my friend, I really do! Artistic autonomy is one of the best things in life. Godspeed!


Thanks Kyle,
It's helpful to hear your experience.
In the end, I might be disappointed after trying something different, but I feel it's necessary to at least give it a try.
And yes, if I did no advertising, it would be almost impossible to find a small website on the internet.
But if I can find a way to reach my potential audience via alternative means, it should work.

I think that the streaming services are killing the music industry through unfair remuneration,
and if musicians collectively pulled their music off and set up their own websites, it would change everything for the better.
I can only hope that this might happen soon.


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## Cyberic (Mar 26, 2022)

Loud and clear by Spotify


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## Kyle Preston (Mar 26, 2022)

Cyberic said:


> Loud and clear by Spotify


Some context:








Spotify just dropped a stat that changes everything about how we judge the streaming economy


Music Business Worldwide's Talking Trends podcast delves into a major new revelation from Spotify…




www.musicbusinessworldwide.com


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## tressie5 (Jul 4, 2022)

Actually, I didn't have a choice but to sign up with Bandcamp. Seems like most of the artists and labels I listen to distribute from there, including Altar Records, Synphaera, Carbon Based Lifeforms, and countless others. And therein lies the rub - getting recognized amongst the thousands of others is tres difficult. I recently sent them a request to profile my new album to be released in August. It'd be nice if they did.


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## Celestial Aeon (Jul 4, 2022)

Whatever you choose, I don't think there is any one perfect answer. All the different options have different pros and cons and at the end of the day, nobody will know the ultimate best answer for any specific music / catalogue, because we can't A/B test the results after let's say 5 years.

Things to consider: 

- are you looking for long term passive income or just distinct sales that come in the short term future and then end
- are you willing to take full responsibility of the marketing or are you in need of some existing system / platform that gives your music some visibility in addition to your own efforts
- how niche is your music - does it elate to only a handful of people or is there potential to reach wider audience
- are you trying to build a strong artist brand with following or do you prefer to just have the music out there without actual artist identity 
- are you going to release more music in the next 2-3 years or will you only sell the music that currently exists

Answers to these kinds of questions can affect the "best options" so to speak. For example Spotify and other streaming services can actually work pretty well if the catalogue grows consistently and you can bring out new music in a relative reasonable timespan. As you say, yes, you need to get quite a lot of streams, but if a project gets going, there are elements that will help like Spotify system generated Radio stations, Discover Weekly stations, Release Radars etc. But those only work if the artist has enough tunes in the catalogue and releases new music often enough. 

Bandcamp can offer some marketing help by linking your releases to people who listen to similar kind of music, which can bring you better visibility than if you'd try to market your own random website totally on your own.

And so on. I'd say that if you don't want to create new music and only want to get some income from a few tunes, then own website can be the best and most simple options, but it is hard to see it giving any actual passive income or "growth". Platforms can do that for right kind of material.


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## GtrString (Jul 4, 2022)

timprebble said:


> ... by default their contract claimed ownership of my publishing! I explained to them that really they cannot afford me, but I was prepared to do the project. But they sure as hell cannot afford to buy out my publishing! They conceded this immediately, but it did not stop them trying. Four film scores later and I own my publishing on all of them.


These are very good phrases for negotiating contracts!

And this can be verified, just ask your PRO what to charge for buy-outs. You will be shocked!


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## GtrString (Jul 4, 2022)

timprebble said:


> An example: I join FB and start sharing photos and posts of my work. Via the FB algorithm X people who are friends/followers etc on FB see my posts (not everyone, just X people that the FB algorithm somehow chooses) Maybe I then decide to buy some FB ads and target groups of people on FB. FB collect data on how many ad placements and how many clicks my paid ads generate. But when I go to share a post the old way on FB (not as an ad) it is now seen by very few.





timprebble said:


> FB reduces your organic reach on FB, as it wants you to spend more on ads. That is how FB profits while being a 'free' platform.


Just a little caution on taking this as fact. There is no way to verify this, as the algorithms aren't disclosed to the public. If FB really does this, it would compromise their presence in the EU altogether, as this would be illegal manipulation. They would receive billion dollar fines, and I don't think they would take a risk like that.

I have had this experience too, but Im not certain it is a scheme. It can also be that the algorithm has gotten new information for your account, and that you need to retarget to reach the same audience again. This might be due to how you set up your ads, if this is vastly different than the natural reach for your account.

There are several other scenarios possible too, most of them falls back to the user, so in this case it might be a good idea to spend a little to get PRO advice on how to advertise, to optimize the spend. We also don't get any information on your campaigns, how well they are set-up, targeted, follow-up ect.

But doing online advertising is no quick money making scheme for sure.


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## osterdamus (Jul 4, 2022)

GtrString said:


> Just a little caution on taking this as fact. There is no way to verify this, as the algorithms aren't disclosed to the public. If FB really does this, it would compromise their presence in the EU altogether, as this would be illegal manipulation. They would receive billion dollar fines, and I don't think they would take a risk like that.
> 
> I have had this experience too, but Im not certain it is a scheme. It can also be that the algorithm has gotten new information for your account, and that you need to retarget to reach the same audience again. This might be due to how you set up your ads, if this is vastly different than the natural reach for your account.
> 
> ...


Your take on getting advice is sound. 

However, I distinctly remember an outcry years ago when Facebook changed their general policy and deliberately lowered organic reach across the platform. 
Groups and store owners went from high organic reach (possibly 100%) to something in the 15-30% range, all in the name of “making feeds more relevant”. To achieve the higher reach again one had to buy ads or buy more reach for a given post.


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## Per Boysen (Jul 4, 2022)

CatComposer said:


> Has anyone attempted to distribute their music from their own website?​


No, I've always avoided that (except for some e-books back in the day because they rendered me paid guest lecturer gigs). But I offer (my original) albums at Bandcamp and link to it from my own websites. When someone buys a CD through Bandcamp I need to be ready to send them a package ASAP. But sales have gone down really badly (as the CD format already died around twenty years ago, but I still sell some CDs at concerts so I keep a stock). Luckily, for me, one of the physical instruments I play on record happens to be rare and thus nerdy lovers of the same instrument might want CDs to check out, I guess. As for distributing music - not necessarily on a mechanical holder like a CD - it seems to me as if the commercial streaming platforms work well (Spotify, Apple Music etc). For digital online distribution that is, not for making money of course 

For the production music I make, I rather go through established agencies than steal more work hours from actual music-making for office work building my own licensing webshop.


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## timprebble (Jul 4, 2022)

GtrString said:


> Just a little caution on taking this as fact. There is no way to verify this, as the algorithms aren't disclosed to the public. If FB really does this, it would compromise their presence in the EU altogether, as this would be illegal manipulation. They would receive billion dollar fines, and I don't think they would take a risk like that.



Surely verification comes from user data, regardless of how much we know about how their algorithms work. For example this article details how the algorithm has changed over years to reduce organic reach:









Improving Your Facebook Reach Despite Organic Decline - business.com


With Facebook's recent algorithm updates, you can no longer easily reach thousands on the platform for free. Here's how to make sure your content is seen.




www.business.com





Also FB easily make it difficult to not use their tools, presumably without breaking any laws. For example, sharing a video on FB: a few years back if I posted a Youtube video, it could be played without leaving FB (same as it still does on Twitter) but when FB pivoted to video as the big thing, they disabled youtube video playback on their site, so to play a Youtube video you have to leave FB and go to Youtube site or app. Why would they do that, it does not make for a better user experience? I can only presume they do it to force you to upload video to their site, if you want it to play on FB. Its not "illegal manipulation" but it sure is manipulation.


Another article documenting the decline in organic reach at FB








The Decline of Organic Facebook Reach & How to Adjust to the Algorithm


Find out how Facebook organic reach has declined over time and how you can change your strategy to conquer the algorithm and drive engagement.




blog.hubspot.com


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## GtrString (Jul 5, 2022)

Great post @timprebble I do need to back on my scepticism, for sure. 

There is also a lot of great advice on what to do in this article, so I hope everyone that uses FB for advertising reads it.


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