# Reverse Perspective (client vs composers)



## Lunatique (Nov 17, 2007)

On the various composer/musician's forums, it's very common to see people bitching about clients that know nothing about what good music is, lack of freedom due to clients demanding you sound like temp tracks, and so on. I thought it'd be interesting for me to post the reverse here--based on the composers I've worked with on various projects. 

Our company (game publisher/developer) does not have an official audio director currently, so I'm the unofficial one (my real title is studio art director, but since I moonlight as a composer, I'm the most qualified person). Whenever a producer needs help on the audio end of things, I'm the one they turn to. I'm also the one to give composers feedback and music direction for our games. Other than games, I've also worked as a writer/director/director of photography in film and animation, and have also done audio direction for CG animation and TV commercials.

So what is it like on the other side of fence working with composers? Like any other relationship, when you work with good ones, it's a real pleasure, and when it's bad, it makes you want to put a fist through the wall.

The good composers are the ones that really understand the medium they are composing for well, and believe me, not all are like that. I've seen plenty that might be good musicians, but have no talent for storytelling whatsoever. As a composer for any kind of story-driven project, you must have a good sense of storytelling yourself and can't just be a musician. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to listen to deliverables that sound totally inappropriate for the scenes/levels they are intended for. Sometimes I wonder if the composers even reads the design doc or the screenplay, because it sure sounds like they don't. What's especially annoying is when the person says he wants to handle voice over/voice acting as well, and then delivers stuff that sounds like he just pulled random people off the street (or grabbed a relative) and had them read the script, with results that sound nothing like how the character should sound, with bland and emotionless acting, and sometimes even the wrong ethnicity. Really, if a composer has no talent as a storyteller or no ear for voice acting direction, do not take on those tasks.

Authenticity is also a big problem ( a VERY big one). There are many composers out there that are so out of touch with current musical styles that you wonder if they wear powdered wigs. One composer when asked to do a cue for a modern day club scene, turned in cues that sounded like it was from the early 90's. I've had this discussion on NSS before and it was apparent that no all composers feel like it benefits them to try to be well-versed in as many different styles as possible--many even looked down on trendy/cutting-edge music, thinking that any kid with a pirated copy of Fruityloops or Reason can do it, so it's beneath them. Well, it shows when you try to fake it. Even our non-musician producers can tell those cues were outdated and laughable. There can only be benefits to broadening your musical vocabulary and influences, and it baffles my mind how some composers choose musical tunnel-vision instead.

Laziness is another problem. Some composers will pull cues from past projects they've done and change it minimally and try to pass it off as something composed for your project, and it totally shows. It's especially infuriating when the cues are not even in the appropriate style for the current project, and you have to wonder how the guy has the audacity to think it would fool the client. Then, the part that really drives producers mad is when asked for iteration changes (always accompanied with feedback--sometimes very detailed feedback), the composer will come back with what sounds like the same shit--just slightly rearranged or remixed. Seriously, that pisses producers/directors/audio directors off more than anything.

Now to balance things out, I'll talk about the good composers. 

The good ones are a real pleasure to work with--they are fast, and totally understand your feedback and implements them right away and almost always nails it in one or two iterations. They have no problem composing cues that sound like the temp tracks when asked to do so (but this could also be because the kind of temp tracks I would pick are probably not the same as a non-musician would pick, as I'd pick stuff that I think are "good music" while still effective for the purpose they're to serve). They also don't try to pretend they know everything--if you are asking for styles they are not well-versed in, they would ask you to provide examples and they would do their research and try hard to sound authentic. If they can't do it they'll just tell you instead of giving you shit that sounds totally off the mark. But the good ones tend to be well-versed in many styles and are up-to-date with developments in modern music. They are also very good at learning a new style--being able to sound authentic after a bit of research (believe me, not all can do this--some just don't have that gift).

Notice I haven't said a thing about talent or skill, because many of the bad one are talented and skilled--it does not make them a good commercial composer that clients will enjoy working with. 

So, anyway, I just thought some of you might find this "reverse perspective" interesting. This might be especially helpful to those who are just entering the profession.


----------



## JohnG (Nov 17, 2007)

A good reminder that it's a two-way street. It sounds like some of the people you are describing are pretty new to the business (and not likely to stay long unless they change their style).

I think that the composers feel put upon most when they get a lot of direction that turns out to be inaccurate or just meaningless -- the producers believe that they've communicated but they haven't been effective. I think that's what leads to the worst problems. 

A very good example for me of imponderable direction arose on a sci-fi movie when I met with the director, several producers, and the editor (and some other people whose role on the picture remains a mystery to me) and they all agreed that the perfect music for the movie was like the music in Aliens from one scene. The said they specifically wanted music like that in the scene when Harry Dean Stanton goes down in the hold, and the other guy follows him, and there are these chains dangling down, and water is dripping, and the audience _knows_ that the alien is just waiting to nail them. This music from that specific scene, they all agreed, was just the thing for this picture.

And there is no music at all in that scene. So I find that I usually listen carefully to what the producer or director is saying and try to figure out what he really means by what he's saying. Even though there's no music in that scene, it still tells you something. 

Direction is riskiest when a producer uses specific musical terms that he might not be deploying the way a composer would. Those are risky because as a composer you believe you've gotten very specific direction when in fact it's not at all what the guy or gal wants -- they were just feeling that they wanted to give some instructions using musical terms and that's what came out. They say they love the oboe and they mean a flute or even a viola or something, so it's always worth asking "what do you like about what it might do for the picture?" so that you flesh it out.

So I always end up writing what I think is right for the scene and then changing it if they don't like it, rather than slavishly following directions that often aren't exactly what they meant in the first place. Don't get me wrong -- if they want it dark, I go dark; if they want lots of percussion, I wham it. What I don't do is dwell too hard on specific verbal instructions because they are sometimes not quite what they really meant to say or are just a little off the mark technically. I send an MP3 and ask if that's directionally correct and then finish up.

One final thought -- if there's a temp and you don't like it (they always DO like it), ask them to specify what parts they like the best about the temp so that you can stay with them. That helps me sometimes.


----------



## José Herring (Nov 17, 2007)

One of the best threads yet. All of this is so true. The only time I've ever failed at a project is when I personally wasn't into what the film makers wanted. It wasn't that what they wanted was bad. It was actually quite good. I just took the attitude that "I knew better". Well after being fired and burning all my bridges I soon changed my mind about that.

My new rule: Whoever is cutting the check knows best. I haven't failed at a gig since. 

This doesn't mean that I don't give my suggestions and input. But it does me that I'm listening and trying to deliver what my client needs and wants to the best of my ability and as professionally as I can. It also means that I've become quite open minded about music and try to embrace all kinds of music.

Imo it doesn't matter what kind of music it is. It's good if you make it good. And if you don't even try to make it good because you feel it's "beneath you", then of course it's going to be bad.

Jose


----------



## JonFairhurst (Nov 17, 2007)

Great posts, everybody.

My favorite line is _"And there is no music at all in that scene."_ Classic... John Cage wrote the temp track!


----------



## Aaron Sapp (Nov 17, 2007)

Non-orchestral music being beneath anybody is of course, utter bollocks. Orchestral is great n' all, but there's too much music to be made outside the orchestral stuff to ignore. All genre's disturb the air/tickle the ear differently, and all are artforms in their own right.


----------



## rJames (Nov 17, 2007)

Hiring the right composer for the job would have to be important. Every composer will not be able to do every style.

I may be wrong but I'll bet there are a myriad of modern day club styles. I would want to hear 3 examples of what you want so that I could have a few angles to analyze. (or a temp track)

I would be one of your powdered wig wearers but could nail what you want, if I had guidance.

Even the best among us would have trouble being great (or probably even proficient) at every style imaginable.

I wonder how you were able to end up with a guy who had no concept of what you wanted and no experience in that style?

signed, Ron (I need way too much information) James.


----------



## midphase (Nov 18, 2007)

I would like to ask what your music budgets are? It seems to me that your frustration is justified if you're paying a good rate for the work, but sometimes low music budgets attract mainly newcomers looking to get some credits or old-timers who are out of touch and can't get good paying work. There are plenty of qualified composers who fall under your definition of "good" but they're not cheap, and generally with composers like everything else you get what you pay for.

Perhaps your company is paying top dollar for music in which case you guys simply need to develop a better screening method...either way I get the feeling there's more to the story.


----------



## Lunatique (Nov 18, 2007)

Well, if any of you have done casual games, you already know that it doesn't exactly pay a lot. AFAIK none of the composers who worked with us to date has charged more than $500 per minute. But we do have really good ones though (even if they're cheap)--veterans that's scored a lot of well-known television series, or has lots of casual game experience. 

If I got to hand-pick the composers we use on every game, this thread probably would not even exist. But since our producers have final say (in a world where the budget dictates who we use), I can only make suggestions. If I happen to suggest someone who's within our budget and I say the guy's perfect for the project, it would be fine, but most producers already have their "go-to guy" and it's very hard (if not impossible) to get them to try another composer. I understand how they feel because those relationships took years to build and there's real trust there. But what the producers need to understand is that their go-to guy is not going to be right for every project, and it's becoming more and more obvious now when we're seeing misses instead of hits. My next move would be to put my foot down and force them to use composers that I have already reviewed and know for sure can handle the styles we need. I think they'll listen to me once they are fed with getting misses instead of hits. 

So yeah, there IS more to the story, but that doesn't change the fact that the previously mentioned problems does exist, even in veteran composers who should know better.


----------



## aeneas (Nov 18, 2007)

Lunatique @ Sun 18 Nov said:


> most producers already have their "go-to guy" and it's very hard (if not impossible) to get them to try another composer.


So, if that is the problem, then I really don't understand what are you complaining about. I mean, if it is the producer's fault that you get the wrong composer for the wrong job, then why do you complain about composers? It is not the composers' fault that they got picked for the wrong job. Maybe those composers are good for other type of projects, so let them be. If a producer forces you to use John Williams to do a 'Steve Jablonsky' type of job, then I don't think you can really complain about John Williams not being Steve Jablonsky.

So I think you should leave the composers alone and complain about producers instead.

On the other hand, I don't understand how can you feel responsible for something that is out of your hands - in this case, for the producer's choice. If the producer doesn't get a good score from HIS/HER composer, in which way can you be held responsible for that? :?


----------



## JohnG (Nov 18, 2007)

It's a service business and I believe that we have to cheerfully do whatever it takes to get the man or woman happy or we are finished working for him or her. If the client says, "I have a great idea -- I'm going to go out in the middle of the street and burn $2 million," the right answer is, "what a great idea. No wonder you are the boss." If you think otherwise, you are sadly mistaken.

I guess that, since sometimes I have hired composers myself, I have met some people who kind of act like you're a jerk if you ask for changes or if you have to -- as one does sometimes -- say that the person has totally latched onto the wrong end of the directions given and the whole approach is off base.

I hate it when it happens to me, but EVERY TIME I'm tempted to blame someone else or complain that "I did what you told me to do" I know it's just self-defeating and won't get me one ounce closer to where I need to be. When I've been right and told the guy so, I've never worked for him again. That's just the way it is; it's not personal.


----------



## Lunatique (Nov 18, 2007)

aeneas - Well, the problem is, the composers who are not delivering the goods are billing themselves as being able to take on any project, any style, but then fall short of that (sometimes spectacularly short). 

But you're right, it's really not my responsibility, as my business card reads "art director," not "audio director." I'm helping out on that end simply because I love music (more than art actually) and as a composer myself, I can't help but want our games to sound great as well as look great.


----------



## wonshu (Nov 18, 2007)

JohnG @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> I hate it when it happens to me, but EVERY TIME I'm tempted to blame someone else or complain that "I did what you told me to do" I know it's just self-defeating and won't get me one ounce closer to where I need to be. When I've been right and told the guy so, I've never worked for him again.



This last sentence should be above everybody's computer screen while they work, take phone calls, do whatever (except when the client is there of course...)

Every newcomer makes that mistake. Thanks for putting it into a short sentence.

Best
Hans


----------



## aeneas (Nov 19, 2007)

Lunatique @ Mon 19 Nov said:


> aeneas - Well, the problem is, the composers who are not delivering the goods are billing themselves as being able to take on any project, any style, but then fall short of that (sometimes spectacularly short).


You are right, those guys should learn their limits. After all, no composer, not a single one, not even the greatest of the greatest - were able to take on any project. Stravinsky, Ravel, and Schoenberg notoriously failed to score for film. So, what would you do if the producer assigns the new Schoenberg to score your next hot action video-game? :D


----------



## Ashermusic (Nov 19, 2007)

Lunatique has posted a very valuable thread and those who heed what was written will possibly work in the industry and those who do not will not.

In addition:

1. Composers, is is THEIR film, not yours.

2. THEY decide what the music should be like. If you disagree strongly, walk away.

3. If you can't do that style and the budget is to low to hire someone to help you make it more believable in that style

4. Play the picture or as Lunatique says, tell the story.

5. Play the picture.

6. Play the picture.

7. Play the picture.

8. Play the picture.

9. Play the picture.
1154. Worry about whether guys on forums like these think is is drivel.


----------



## wonshu (Nov 19, 2007)

Ashermusic @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> 1154. Worry about whether guys on forums like these think is is drivel.



Seems a bit high on the list to me...


----------



## rJames (Nov 19, 2007)

Ashermusic @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> Lunatique has posted a very valuable thread and those who heed what was written will possibly work in the industry and those who do not will not.
> 
> In addition:
> 
> ...



Jay, on these forums there is drivel but also wisdom. The readers job is to find the gems and identify the charlatans. I'm not trying to knock you because I know you are a consummate professional.

This thread is not about "playing the picture." Who is it that said, "there are a hundred ways to score a picture correctly." (no doubt badly paraphrased)

But that particular advice is a bit vague. (and not germane to this discussion)

It scares me to think that there are 10,000 different types of "post modern reggetron" (I just made that up) and the producer wants me to figure out which one he thinks works for this particular scene.

I understand that if the composer finds something that "works" then the particular style of reggetron that the producer had in mind is not important anymore.

Knowing the little that I do about Lunatique (but I do know a little) I believe that he is using very competent composers.

So, the issue becomes... why are they so off target. I'm sure they all believe they are "Playing the picture"

How does the production team communicate their preconceptions to the composer so that the composer CAN realize the director/producers goal.

I believe that in this thread we are talking about communication.


----------



## Ashermusic (Nov 19, 2007)

rJames @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon Nov 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Jay, on these forums there is drivel but also wisdom. The readers job is to find the gems and identify the charlatans. I'm not trying to knock you because I know you are a consummate professional.
> ...



I didn't say what was posted here was drivel. I was referring to another discussion where a poster said that most scores are drivel. My point is that a film/TV composer should be worrying about whether the music works with the picture and whether or not the client is happy with the score and not be worried about what other composers think of the score. 

Communication between producers/directors who do not "speak" music is not a new problem. Even the great Henry Mancini had a score thrown out by Hitchcock and he never knew why.

This is why the advent of the temp track is both a blessing and a curse. It is helpful in that it really gives you some insight into the way your client is thinking about the music for the film. It is problematic because sometimes clients fall in love with it and unless you write it sideways they may be unhappy, which of course is a bit of a creativity killer for the composer.

I think the number of producer/directors who are locked in something as specific as a specific type of reggaetron is pretty small and with one notable exception I have always been able to find a style that they and I agreed on. 

Anyway, IMHO Lunatuique's post was great and newbies should really take it to heart.


----------



## rJames (Nov 19, 2007)

Ashermusic @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> I didn't say what was posted here was drivel. I was referring to another discussion where a poster said that most scores are drivel. Anyway, IMHO Lunatuique's post was great and newbies should really take it to heart.



Sorry, I did not get that connection.


----------



## midphase (Nov 19, 2007)

I want to once again urge everyone to realize that we're having a very one sided discussion here. We don't know the whole story and quite possibly neither does Lunatique since he's not the one who is directly responsible for hiring and managing these composers.

We are all making way too many assumptions here and I would like everyone to consider that there could be other factors at work than what we all might not be aware of.


----------



## Lunatique (Nov 19, 2007)

midphase @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> I want to once again urge everyone to realize that we're having a very one sided discussion here. We don't know the whole story and quite possibly neither does Lunatique since he's not the one who is directly responsible for hiring and managing these composers.
> 
> We are all making way too many assumptions here and I would like everyone to consider that there could be other factors at work than what we all might not be aware of.



Of course there's always two sides to every story, and I'm sure from most people's perspective, they're the "right" ones--not many like to admit they've been "wrong" or have the wisdom to see maybe it's not right or wrong, but just difference of opinion/taste. 

In the case of the composer that wasn't delivering the goods--I've had long talks with the producer and she's already given him very specific feedback--ones I agreed with, and what he turned in after the feedback just wasn't on the mark. Maybe he just isn't well-versed in specific styles of music, and what he thinks works is different from what we think would work. The reality is that two equally talented/experienced composers might turn in two very different scores and both would work--in the end it comes down to what the client wants, as that's the one person you need to please more than any other. 

Like I already mentioned, there ARE good composers working with us too--for example, the score for Battleship is very nice--I was quite happy with it. The score for Risk was pretty good too. The score for the game we're about to ship is also very nice, and the group that did it was a real pleasure to work with. 

I started this thread mostly to balance the point of view so that composers see how things can sometimes be on the other side of the fence. I believe that because of my situation, I'm afforded a unique perspective, since during the day I am the client, and at night and on the weekends, I'm the composer who has to satisfy clients. Being on both sides of the fence certainly gave me insights I otherwise wouldn't have had. 

To lighten the mood a little--here's something that might be of interest to you guys. Some of you remember the little ad I put out a while back, trying to help open doors for composers here. You guys would not believe the number of replies I got. My inbox was flooded and within a few weeks I had close to a hundred emails/PM's from composers all around the world interested in working with iWin (some of you in this thread threw your hats into the ring too). If you guys haven't heard back, it's not because we don't like your stuff--it's just that we don't have 100 games in production to go around--at most 20 or so games a year for us is the limit. 

Some statistics (I tagged all applicants in my inbox as the following):
Roughly 15~20% do mainly orchestral and not much else, but they're really good at the one thing they do.

About 25~35% tackle a wide range of styles with authenticity, and have excellent body of works that are head above shoulders better than the rest. Some are so good at various styles that they could easily compete with "genuine artists" of specific genres. Among these, the price range varies.

About 10~15% probably should consider another career. 

The rest are ok, but would get passed on simply because of the 25~35% that are really good. These guys will only be considered if those other guys aren't available or too expensive. Some of these guys have extensive experience and even worked for well-known clients, but that isn't a guarantee that the music is better than the 25~35% that might not have had big clients. 

Another interesting fact is that the composers who are easy to work with and turn in stuff that's just right for the project, don't always have amazing portfolios. If you just listened to the stuff on their websites, some are just ok, but they really know how to deliver what the client wants. 

So based on this statistic, it's obvious that the quality of the music, experience, price, ability to deliver the goods...etc don't necessarily correlate.


----------



## aeneas (Nov 19, 2007)

Ashermusic @ Mon 19 Nov said:


> Even the great Henry Mancini had a score thrown out by Hitchcock and he never knew why.


Yeah, that was The Birds 'lost' score. Hitch told me that he turned it down because Mancini's birds were all pink. o


----------



## damoy (Jan 8, 2008)

JohnG @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> And there is no music at all in that scene.



Reminds me of a time I was approached by a local band to produce an arrangement for one of their songs. They provided a sample track and said "we want it to sound exactly like that". The problem was that other than some finger snapping, the song was acapella. Haha.

Anyway, great post here, a very good read.


----------



## Bruce Richardson (Jan 10, 2008)

Good post Lunatique...by the way, did you get my reply on the Zendrum forum? You'll love the ZAP, it is sweet. I've been playing it for two solid days.

B.


----------



## Desire Inspires (Oct 1, 2017)

Lunatique said:


> On the various composer/musician's forums, it's very common to see people bitching about clients that know nothing about what good music is, lack of freedom due to clients demanding you sound like temp tracks, and so on. I thought it'd be interesting for me to post the reverse here--based on the composers I've worked with on various projects.
> 
> Our company (game publisher/developer) does not have an official audio director currently, so I'm the unofficial one (my real title is studio art director, but since I moonlight as a composer, I'm the most qualified person). Whenever a producer needs help on the audio end of things, I'm the one they turn to. I'm also the one to give composers feedback and music direction for our games. Other than games, I've also worked as a writer/director/director of photography in film and animation, and have also done audio direction for CG animation and TV commercials.
> 
> ...



Oldie but goodie.

Thank you for the lesson. I will try to do better.


----------



## sinkd (Oct 1, 2017)

Must have missed this thread first time around. Very good stuff and a great anecdote from John G.


----------



## BenG (Oct 1, 2017)

Thank you for finding/brining this up! A real interesting read!


----------



## R. Soul (Oct 2, 2017)

Great to see the view from someone other than a composer.


----------



## jononotbono (Oct 2, 2017)

Lunatique said:


> On the various composer/musician's forums, it's very common to see people bitching about clients that know nothing about what good music is, lack of freedom due to clients demanding you sound like temp tracks, and so on. I thought it'd be interesting for me to post the reverse here--based on the composers I've worked with on various projects.
> 
> Our company (game publisher/developer) does not have an official audio director currently, so I'm the unofficial one (my real title is studio art director, but since I moonlight as a composer, I'm the most qualified person). Whenever a producer needs help on the audio end of things, I'm the one they turn to. I'm also the one to give composers feedback and music direction for our games. Other than games, I've also worked as a writer/director/director of photography in film and animation, and have also done audio direction for CG animation and TV commercials.
> 
> ...



This really is a great post. Thanks.


----------



## nordicguy (Oct 2, 2017)

JonFairhurst said:


> Great posts, everybody.
> 
> My favorite line is _"And there is no music at all in that scene."_ Classic... John Cage wrote the temp track!


To me it's the "Even though there's no music in that scene, it still tells you something." part that resonate.

I often thought that music school should offer editing course to composers looking toward scoring for movie, games, tv, whatever.
Even not adding music is a musical statement.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 3, 2017)

Actually there's little of real value in that opening post, but a great deal of rather striking baloney.


----------



## jononotbono (Oct 5, 2017)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Actually there's little of real value in that opening post, but a great deal of rather striking baloney.



Can you explain why you think that?


----------



## mac (Oct 5, 2017)

I like this @Lunatique guy.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 7, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Can you explain why you think that?



Well I guess it was acutally already adressed back then. But in short: this Lunatique person basically rants about the deficiencies of their company and then proceedes to blaming composers for it. What follows is a rather clueless and also somewhat overbearing lecture on what constitutes a good composer and "no shit Sherlock" type advice.

Really, nothing of use or value in that post.


----------



## jononotbono (Oct 7, 2017)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Well I guess it was acutally already adressed back then. But in short: this Lunatique person basically rants about the deficiencies of their company and then proceedes to blaming composers for it. What follows is a rather clueless and also somewhat overbearing lecture on what constitutes a good composer and "no shit Sherlock" type advice.
> 
> Really, nothing of use or value in that post.



Oh right! Ok!


----------

