# Order of larger horn sections?



## bryla (Feb 17, 2010)

I know that a 4-horn section is 1&2=high and 3&4=low and they are organised 1 3 2 4 from right to left. But how is the seating and the order of high and low distributed in a horn section of 6 like The Planets or 8 as Elfman has used?

Thanks,
Thomas


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## JohnG (Feb 17, 2010)

Actually, all the modern horns are not the same. French Horn players use descant horns to play the higher parts, both in the baroque repertoire and in plenty of film music too. And other stuff, presumably!

On this topic, an amusing observation from hornplanet.com:

"If a player does not have the ability to play in the upper register, a descant horn will not suddenly endow the player with that ability."

But it does mean that adjacent notes are not as close together and the accuracy of the playing is easier for the players.

http://www.hornplanet.com/hornpage/muse ... tory4.html


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## synthetic (Feb 17, 2010)

Well, sure some players can hit higher notes than others. I played marching band trumpet but I could never hit a high G, and could hit a high C only on a good day. So I was usually a 2nd trumpet and guys who played higher were on 1st. I assume it's not quite as simple as that in symphonies but it must be a factor (accurately, repeatably hitting higher notes). 

As far as tubing, I thought that was the difference between a double horn and a single horn? 

My copy of Professional Orchestration book 1 (Peter Alexander) says that Hollywood studio parts are laid out 1-2-3-4 from high to low, unlike a symphony which is still 1-3-2-4. Perhaps because studio players are always sight reading and need to be flexible enough to hit whatever comes next.


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## bryla (Feb 17, 2010)

Wow... really confusing to me.

Thanks for the link to hornplanet!


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## José Herring (Feb 18, 2010)

Traditionally back them olden days you thought of horns in pairs. Many old classical scores were written for just 2 horns. So there was a high and a low horn. Then as the section expands they for the most part only re-enforced the high and the low. So you get the arrangement of 1,3 on the high part and 2,4 on the lows. Then in the late romantic period you had Wagner doubling the four horns to 8 horns. But for some reason they still worked out in pairs. So it would go 1,3,5 high 2,4,6 low.

Nowadays it doesn't matter. Though to keep it simple I still think of odd number on high and even numbers on low parts. But don't be afraid to write unison in any register. The horn players are good enough to do anything. The only thing they don't really seem to like is going back and forth from high to low. Though I did that for one guy and he loved it. It just needs to be setup right.

Jose


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## bryla (Feb 18, 2010)

Thanks Jose! So six would be high low high low high low, when set 12 - 34 - 56?


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## José Herring (Feb 18, 2010)

That's the way I would do it. But there a plenty of others who wouldn't. It's up to you.

Jose


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## Stephen Baysted (Feb 18, 2010)

In Mahler's 2nd there are 10 horns (but 7-10 are usually off-stage). That's normally done in pairs too IIRC. I think Bryla it depends on the music and the nature of the harmonies.


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## JohnG (Feb 18, 2010)

Rousseau @ 18th February 2010 said:


> I think Bryla it depends on the music and the nature of the harmonies.



I agree with Rousseau. 

An example of "bracketed" French Horns appears in John Williams' concert score for "Adventures on Earth," from E.T. The French horns are playing repeated quavers (eighth notes) in close harmony. It's much easier to read the score with 1&2 paired on the top staff, and 3&4 paired on the next staff, with 1 playing the top note, 3 playing the next highest note, 2 the third from the top, and 4 the bottom note. Again, in this particular case. 

By contrast, if 1&2 were written on the same staff, they often would be in major or minor second intervals, which is somewhat harder to read.

Whatever is practical is fine for film music. 

If you are submitting a piece to an orchestra and face a conservative reviewer whose background is academic, I guess it might be worth pandering to him or her by arranging the horns in this kind of way.


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## JJP (Feb 18, 2010)

I find this depends on how you are writing and for what kind of ensemble. For block chord type writing the whole horns in pairs thing doesn't matter. For more melodic or contrapuntal type writing, it can sometimes have relevance today.

When you are dealing with large horn sections in a studio situation, you don't really have to worry about who plays which part. These are freelance players and they come in ready for anything. The only exception will be the principal who will expect to get the first part and the bulk of the high melodic notes. For score clarity it's easiest to just write high to low 1-8. The players can decide who plays which part.

The downside to this writing is that sometimes you will end up with horns 7-8 mucking around in the bottom register all day. It might be nice to change things up in antiphonal passages just to give people a break, keep it interesting, and give a subtle color change, but that's a judgement call and up to you.

In some situations where the high horns are particularly taxing and it's going to be a long day of recording, I've created parts for all horns so they can trade off if fatigued. The horns don't always like having the extra notes (on a separate staff) and the added page turns, but I've had a few rare occasions where it proved useful. Just be sure the parts are well laid out with careful attention to clarity and page turns.

Classical situations and established orchestras can be different. It's probably worth a call to the librarian or music director to ask how they would like to see things. But, since parts will be distributed ahead of time, they may switch who plays which part anyway.

If you want to keep with the classical tradition, just number your staves 1,3; 2,4; 5,7; 6,8, and write as normal to keep the score clear. However, you can see how with 8 horns the whole high/low thing just gets confusing. The exception is if you are writing for horns in pairs and thinking of this layout as two separate horn sections - great for antiphonal writing. Then this layout can work well and actually has some real meaning in today's orchestra. If you are thinking this way, then seating of the horns can also become an important part of the music as well. 8)


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## synthetic (Feb 18, 2010)

Yes, but the John Williams Signature Scores are arranged to be played by concert orchestras, so they follow classical conventions. The studio arrangements I have are mixed, but it seems that the older ones are arranged classically and the modern ones are high to low. Raiders and Species show horns 1-3-2-4. Jurassic Park and Spiderman 3 show horns high to low 1-6 and 1-8. I have more at home I can look at.


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## mducharme (Feb 18, 2010)

4 horns and 8 horns situations tend to work out more easily, because you can have them 1;3, 2;4, etc. For 6 horns I would probably do 1,4; 2,5; 3,6, though it's probably not very typical.

This only really applies to the conductor score I would think. The horn players themselves would probably prefer to play from parts that would only show their individual part, so the division is academic. I would simply make sure that the people who are most likely playing in unison (i.e. those on one staff in the conductor score) would not be seated directly beside each other, and that high note/low note specialists were assigned their seats accordingly.


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## bryla (Feb 19, 2010)

Thanks to everybody for the valuable input! I guess I'm not at the level of being concerned about it  and will be best off with leaving it to the players.


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