# How much was your biggest PRO royalty check?



## Desire Inspires (May 13, 2017)

3 figures?

4 figures?

5 figures?

6 figures?

Just curious.


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## gregh (May 13, 2017)

I am not so pro at all, but my biggest pay recently is in the low 4 figures. But I only work on things that I am interested in and charge according to how much money is involved in the project and/or how much money the person asking has.


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## chillbot (May 13, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> 3 figures?
> 
> 4 figures?
> 
> ...



Why no 7 figures. Just curious.


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## Desire Inspires (May 13, 2017)

chillbot said:


> Why no 7 figures. Just curious.



Didn't want to scare off people.


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## Desire Inspires (May 13, 2017)

gregh said:


> I am not so pro at all, but my biggest pay recently is in the low 4 figures. But I only work on things that I am interested in and charge according to how much money is involved in the project and/or how much money the person asking has.



When I said PRO, I meant *P*erformance *R*oyalty *O*rganization, as in BMI, PRS, ASCAP, GEMA, SESAC, SOCAN, etc.


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## gregh (May 13, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> When I said PRO, I meant *P*erformance *R*oyalty *O*rganization, as in BMI, PRS, ASCAP, GEMA, SESAC, SOCAN, etc.


well thats easy - I dont use those organisations at all. I looked at joining a couple of times years ago but the admin was so great that it put me off compared to the potential financial benefit.


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## chillbot (May 13, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> Didn't want to scare off people.


Sorry I think it's a largely useless question. What are you expecting to achieve from this in such a small sample size. You want us to post dick measurements too? (Apologies to the females, it's meant metaphorically.)


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## gregh (May 13, 2017)

The sample size might be okay if the population of interest is "the people on VI who make work that is suited to PRO payments". 

Which is not me and I imagine lots of others on here. Even though I've done work for theatre, a bit for documentary, had arts grants and worked with visual artists over the years, none of that relates to performing rights in any meaningful way.


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## Desire Inspires (May 14, 2017)

chillbot said:


> Sorry I think it's a largely useless question. What are you expecting to achieve from this in such a small sample size. You want us to post dick measurements too? (Apologies to the females, it's meant metaphorically.)



It isn't useless to me. I am just curious. 

It is inspiring to learn from those who are doing music full time. I am looking to learn.

Anyway, here is a video of some guys who are doing music full time. Thanks.


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## colony nofi (May 14, 2017)

A very well known TV composer in Australia recently let me know that more than 1/3 of his entire income comes from royalties - and he's a co-owner of a company (so makes money off the company as well as jobs he's doing!)
Royalty organisations are your friends. Once you get a TV show - or even an ad with a large media buy - then you'll see the benefits.
Chasing royalties from asia is now something worth while doing as well - the time vs $ back benefit is most definitely worth it if your compositions end up sync'd. 
I'm still to see very much from spots that are very big on you-tube (5+million views for an internet-only-brand-type-commercial) - but the rights organisations are very much involved in keeping the composers voices heard when it comes to media use shifting from terrestrial tv / free to air / paytv over to a youtube/netflix/hulu etc model.
Radio is also worth chasing up - depending on what you've written and who for and how it is published.

This is from a few years ago - and is a figure for 1 quarter in a country of 25million people. Also worth noting my royalties increased when APRA went over to a digital system - using technology similar to Shazam to report usage of TV/Radio in Australia and NZ.
http://www.amin.org.au/apra-amcos-deliver-46-million-in-royalties/


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## trumpoz (May 14, 2017)

Then there is the composer who wrote the theme to Neighbours..... royalties for years


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## gsilbers (May 14, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> It isn't useless to me. I am just curious.
> 
> It is inspiring to learn from those who are doing music full time. I am looking to learn.
> 
> Anyway, here is a video of some guys who are doing music full time. Thanks.




Its a long video. what part did you like? 

Are you thinking on jumping into doing it full time? 


I think most composers do other stuff as well to suplement. live performances, mixing or editing. tv commercials, etc. 
so i think it factors in.


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## gsilbers (May 14, 2017)

trumpoz said:


> Then there is the composer who wrote the theme to Neighbours..... royalties for years



dunno man.. that simpsons theme...might be close 

I wish i coudlnt written the end credit song for bones. or some show that goes into tons of syndication.


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## Desire Inspires (May 14, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> Its a long video. what part did you like?
> 
> Are you thinking on jumping into doing it full time?
> 
> ...




There are many good parts, but I like the part at 1:22:21 where the question is asked about "How do you balance work life/social life when work is play and not work?"

The answer was given "There is no balance".

That is where I want to be! I definitely want to do this full time.


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## trumpoz (May 15, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> dunno man.. that simpsons theme...might be close
> 
> I wish i coudlnt written the end credit song for bones. or some show that goes into tons of syndication.



Neighbours - 1985 and still going strong. Im biased. Im an Aussie! Though D. Elfman will be enjoying a wonderful back end from The Simpsons.


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## dannymc (May 16, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> It isn't useless to me. I am just curious.
> 
> It is inspiring to learn from those who are doing music full time. I am looking to learn.
> 
> Anyway, here is a video of some guys who are doing music full time. Thanks.





this video did not inspire me at all. making over 1000 cue's a year to make a living. i don't know how that's possible whilst maintaining high quality. your sanity and having some sort of life. to me this just seems like the equivalent of someone saying well i earn 6 figures by working in mcdonalds but i do a 90hr week every week. if this is the reality of tv world then i think keeping at as a little side thing is the best approach whilst striving for the bigger projects.

Danny


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## Smikes77 (May 16, 2017)

dannymc said:


> this video did not inspire me at all. making over 1000 cue's a year to make a living. i don't know how that's possible whilst maintaining high quality. your sanity and having some sort of life. to me this just seems like the equivalent of someone saying well i earn 6 figures by working in mcdonalds but i do a 90hr week every week. if this is the reality of tv world then i think keeping at as a little side thing is the best approach whilst striving for the bigger projects.
> 
> Danny



I agree here. The video is from Taxi. To get a better insight into how successful their members are, you are better off delving into their forums rather than handpicked members who have written 1000s of cues. They unfortunately cyber-high-five eachother when they earn a couple of bucks. And I mean, a couple of bucks. It`s also long time to be writing dramedy, which is quite often what they ask for.

Also, I felt REALLY sorry for this one guy in the forum that had over 70 forwards by them, and not a single bean earned, nor heard from any music library.


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## mac (May 16, 2017)

dannymc said:


> this video did not inspire me at all. making over 1000 cue's a year to make a living. i don't know how that's possible whilst maintaining high quality. your sanity and having some sort of life. to me this just seems like the equivalent of someone saying well i earn 6 figures by working in mcdonalds but i do a 90hr week every week. if this is the reality of tv world then i think keeping at as a little side thing is the best approach whilst striving for the bigger projects.
> 
> Danny


Pretty sure that was 1000 tracks over 10 years. But yeah, still a cherry picked panel.


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## dannymc (May 16, 2017)

i think the blonde guy says later in the video he's already written 150 cues this year. either way i didn't find it that inspiring. i do think the guys behind taxi are genuine but i really don't think composers should settle for "middleman" outfits. try the networking and reaching out yourself to libraries and failing that then maybe use a service like taxi. i've heard their forum is good and its a good way for networking but other than that i don't see the value in these services especially with a price tag attached.

Danny


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## StevenMcDonald (May 16, 2017)

dannymc said:


> i think the blonde guy says later in the video he's already written 150 cues this year. either way i didn't find it that inspiring. i do think the guys behind taxi are genuine but i really don't think composers should settle for "middleman" outfits. try the networking and reaching out yourself to libraries and failing that then maybe use a service like taxi. i've heard their forum is good and its a good way for networking but other than that i don't see the value in these services especially with a price tag attached.
> 
> Danny



I also can't help but judge people a little bit the few times I've visited the Taxi forum and seen so many posts like "So far I've made $0 and spent $600 in membership and submissions. But thanks for everything Taxi! You're the best!", but I'm trying to be better about that. For some people, it really is a helpful service for getting better at producing and making industry contacts. I just would never think about spending money to submit music myself.

Trying to live off of PRO royalties alone is definitely not for everyone - the reality of it is that cable placements, the ones with the most demand, pay pretty terribly compared to Network placements. But there's not a lot of room in Network. And even when you do get a good placement, that 9-12 month wait for cue sheets to be processed and royalties to be paid is brutal. But once you've done it for a couple years and have a consistent source of placements, royalties do grow, and it's nice knowing that a check is coming every quarter. But the unfortunate truth is that it does take a LOT of music to really see substantial results from royalties alone. I've been writing 5 tracks a week (sometimes less, very rarely more) for 2 and a half years now, so I'm in the range of about 625 tracks written and submitted to a library. I'm fully aware that it's a quantity over quality approach most of the time, but if that's what it takes to build a royalty stream and allow me more time to write stuff I want to, then I'll absolutely do it. Besides, writing so much music has made me incredibly efficient in my workflow and well versed in a TON of genres that I never thought I'd work in before getting into library work.

Even at this point, I still can't live off my royalties alone. I won't go into details, but royalties currently make up about 70% of my music income. The rest is coming from freelance gigs on indie games and short films. I've also gotten quite a bit of trailer music into a library at the beginning of this year, and I'm just now starting to work with another trailer company. So hopefully that stuff will start bringing in some not-so-delayed sync fee income.

My main point is - yes, doing library work for PRO royalties is slow and a lot of work. But it's not just a total miserable musical sweatshop experience.  I often find myself enjoying writing in the many different genres that come with reality TV work. I've learned a lot, and the relatively steady quarterly income from it allows me to spend time getting really good at what I truly want to end up doing.


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## Leon Willett (May 16, 2017)

My biggest one was 6100 dollars


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## dannymc (May 16, 2017)

StevenMcDonald said:


> I also can't help but judge people a little bit the few times I've visited the Taxi forum and seen so many posts like "So far I've made $0 and spent $600 in membership and submissions. But thanks for everything Taxi! You're the best!", but I'm trying to be better about that. For some people, it really is a helpful service for getting better at producing and making industry contacts. I just would never think about spending money to submit music myself.
> 
> Trying to live off of PRO royalties alone is definitely not for everyone - the reality of it is that cable placements, the ones with the most demand, pay pretty terribly compared to Network placements. But there's not a lot of room in Network. And even when you do get a good placement, that 9-12 month wait for cue sheets to be processed and royalties to be paid is brutal. But once you've done it for a couple years and have a consistent source of placements, royalties do grow, and it's nice knowing that a check is coming every quarter. But the unfortunate truth is that it does take a LOT of music to really see substantial results from royalties alone. I've been writing 5 tracks a week (sometimes less, very rarely more) for 2 and a half years now, so I'm in the range of about 625 tracks written and submitted to a library. I'm fully aware that it's a quantity over quality approach most of the time, but if that's what it takes to build a royalty stream and allow me more time to write stuff I want to, then I'll absolutely do it. Besides, writing so much music has made me incredibly efficient in my workflow and well versed in a TON of genres that I never thought I'd work in before getting into library work.
> 
> ...



nice post Steven seems like you have a good strategy there. 

Danny


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 16, 2017)

> You want us to post dick measurements too?



Please. But no pictures.


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## doctornine (May 18, 2017)

I write library music. I have done for a long time. I make my living from very healthy PRO payments.
And no, I'm far to English and polite to mention amounts


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## guydoingmusic (May 18, 2017)

the biggest check I've gotten... it was just a normal sized check. Like a normal payroll check. It fit in one of those 4 1/8" x 9 1/2" envelopes. I always wanted those ENORMOUS checks you see golfers hold up after winning a tournament.


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## mverta (May 18, 2017)

My biggest would have to be the one that allowed me to quit my day jobs. It wasn't very big, comparatively, to what I'd earn later on, but at the time, it was a fortune in gold, worth infinitely more than the paper it was printed on.


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## Vik (May 18, 2017)

5 figures, but why the question?


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## robh (May 18, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Please. But no pictures.


You don't need proof?


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## Parsifal666 (May 18, 2017)

$7,500. I actually thought that wasn't bad. But then I always set my sights low, because as I grew more experienced I realized I really wasn't that great at making music lol!


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## Mike Greene (May 18, 2017)

robh said:


> You don't need proof?


No, he likes to hold off on that until you meet in person.


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## Alatar (May 18, 2017)

It was huuuuuuggggeee.

Because my music is great music. It really is. It relies on notes - and I have the best notes, you know. I use the best notes in my music. It is really amazing just how great those notes are. And I tell you what. I talked to people - lots of people actually - and they all think what I said. It has a lot of appeal. It's really just all there and what it is.


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## robh (May 18, 2017)

Mike Greene said:


> No, he likes to hold off on that until you meet in person.


Ok. I'll hold off until then.


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## autopilot (May 18, 2017)

Hans will win this game.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 18, 2017)

You mean the royalty one, I hope?


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## mac (May 18, 2017)

I wouldn't mind receiving one of Clive Calder's cheques.


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## Michael Antrum (May 18, 2017)

mverta said:


> My biggest would have to be the one that allowed me to quit my day jobs. It wasn't very big, comparatively, to what I'd earn later on, but at the time, it was a fortune in gold, worth infinitely more than the paper it was printed on.



Just goes to show - it's not how big it is, its what you do with it...

(I'll just keep telling myself that.....)


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## Desire Inspires (May 18, 2017)

autopilot said:


> Hans will win this game.



You think so? There are a lot of people out there with a longer list of songs on their catalogs.


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## autopilot (May 18, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> You think so? There are a lot of people out there with a longer list of songs on their catalogs.



I have a very long list of songs on my PRO sheet but most of them don't do as much as I'd like. 

Or anything for most of them  

There's an awful lot of cinema and TV broadcast minutes out there with Hans' name on it. Can't imagine there'd be anyone with more than that on this forum. 

And can't imagine if they did they'd jump in and tell us anyway


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## Desire Inspires (May 18, 2017)

autopilot said:


> I have a very long list of songs on my PRO sheet but most of them don't do as much as I'd like.
> 
> Or anything for most of them
> 
> ...



Probably not, but someone can let us know how their catalog has been helping them over the years. There are a few guys and gals here who are very prolific.


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## Farkle (May 18, 2017)

mac said:


> I wouldn't mind receiving one of Clive Calder's cheques.


Or Ron Jones's....


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## Thorsten Meyer (May 19, 2017)

Alatar said:


> It was huuuuuuggggeee.
> 
> Because my music is great music. It really is. It relies on notes - and I have the best notes, you know. I use the best notes in my music. It is really amazing just how great those notes are. And I tell you what. I talked to people - lots of people actually - and they all think what I said. It has a lot of appeal. It's really just all there and what it is.


I just love it, so huge. Great that you play the piano with your hand


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## dannymc (May 19, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> Probably not, but someone can let us know how their catalog has been helping them over the years. There are a few guys and gals here who are very prolific.



maybe someone the likes of Thomas Bergersen might get close. the amount of times i hear heart of courage and protectors of the earth sync'd to different things is mind blowing. 

Danny


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## TimCox (May 19, 2017)

This feels like when people ask "how much money do you make?" which I was raised under the notion that you don't ask that to someone. If you want to do it, do it. You'll either make money or you won't


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## dgburns (May 19, 2017)

Work hard, be honest in your efforts. File your paperwork. Hope for the best. Take what your given, pay your taxes, save as much as you can for the future.

(and buy a synth every once in a while to remind you why you work so damn hard in the first place)


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## Rctec (May 19, 2017)

dgburns said:


> Work hard, be honest in your efforts. File your paperwork. Hope for the best. Take what your given, pay your taxes, save as much as you can for the future.
> 
> (and buy a synth every once in a while to remind you why you work so damn hard in the first place)


You'd be an idiot not to join a performance society. I know there are companies now that try to undermine them by not letting you have a gig if you're signed. But in the long run it's just another way to screw artists and we all need to stick together and fight companies that try to take your rights from you. I can't be any more serious about this than I am.


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## Rctec (May 19, 2017)

Rctec said:


> You'd be an idiot not to join a performance society. I know there are companies now that try to undermine them by not letting you have a gig if you're signed. But in the long run it's just another way to screw artists and we all need to stick together and fight companies that try to take your rights from you. I can't be any more serious about this than I am.


Oh, and dgburns, I couldn't agree with you more!


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## mac (May 19, 2017)

@Rctec Hans, you forgot to mention how much your cheque was made out for


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## patrick76 (May 19, 2017)

mac said:


> @Rctec Hans, you forgot to mention how much your cheque was made out for


I thought we were talking about dick size. For those of us concerned with accuracy and internationally recognized measuring techniques, please consult the following video.


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## TimCox (May 19, 2017)

Just get yourself a huge truck so everyone knows how big you are


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## colony nofi (May 21, 2017)

TimCox said:


> This feels like when people ask "how much money do you make?" which I was raised under the notion that you don't ask that to someone. If you want to do it, do it. You'll either make money or you won't



Why should we not ask someone how much money they make? Why are we so afraid of offending people with talk of money? Money, and how much jobs are worth / how much you can make out of different parts of the industry should be a course at the major uni's for composers (and thankfully, here in australia, moves are happening to make this a real thing!)
While I'm very aware that sharing what you earned publicly can be taken the wrong way / turn into a dick swinging contest, I think some private conversations - PM's, or even groups of composers talking over lunch about this stuff is important. For all creative industries. Even if its ball park figures. Its good to hear things like - "I didn't get my first paid gig till I was 30, but 10 years later I hit 6 figures with 33%+ coming from royalties" which is what one of my first bosses told me. This can really help give people something to aim for - or something to compare against. Something to keep in mind when negotiating publishing contracts (your backend is EXTREMELY important and worth holding onto as much as possible!)
I don't agree with the sentiment that you'll either make money or you won't. Its far more nuanced and complicated than that. It depends on what part of the industry you go into, how early you figure out its best to get someone else (with more power than you) to negotiate on a lot of jobs rather than you as a creator... even though that means paying them a percentage of your fee. How do you know whats fair to pay a producer or rep or manager or ?? Lets talk about this stuff openly with those who don't know to help lift them up. That little lift might be the thing that helps them get underway in this strange industry and make some money.

Being secretive about these things (and treating them in a guarded way) is geared to helping the haves, and not lifting up the have-nots. 

There are so many occasions when having a good idea of the general amount of money a particular job will paying is only going to help the worker. Its all about power - who-ever knows about the amount is in the better position of power when it later comes to a negotiation.
And then as a producer/composer rep - knowing budgets / accepted amounts is one of the massive parts of the job. How does one find out these amounts without talking to others about what they earn? As a composer - knowing what you should be getting paid for jobs is hugely important - because if someone else can take you for a ride, they will.

We have organisations around the world who are there to HELP composers learn these kinds of things, but often they can be difficult to approach for people starting out. APRA and AGSC in australia, PCAM, PRS in UK and countless others. Again - you need to know about these organisations. And they don't cover all facets of the industry.

Who helps the producer when (REAL story effecting a job of mine recently) they need to enter a royalty negotiation for a major ios/android application when they have no prior experience in knowing what to ask for per 1000 installs? Here, the commissioning company has all the power - and one needs to start with what maybe a completely unreasonable amount in order not to accidentally low-ball... with the risk of being laughed off the negotiation table being real! Companies such as apple, google, microsoft etc have a LOT of power - but small pieces of info regarding money can really help the composer rebalance that power a bit.

Just my 2c. (Which is far more than you earn as a royalty for an install of a default app on a phone, and MUCH MUCH more than you'll ever get from backend on an ad that has had 10million views on youtube... but that doesn't mean your overall quarterly royalties cant seriously ad up very fast! And here's to hoping backend on youtube videos is sorted... rights organisations are making headway, but its yet to be seen on a quarterly statement here...)


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## erica-grace (May 21, 2017)

TimCox said:


> This feels like when people ask "how much money do you make?" which I was raised under the notion that you don't ask that to someone.



Same here.


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## jononotbono (May 21, 2017)

colony nofi said:


> Why should we not ask someone how much money they make?



Because it's rude. Well, I think it is and it's how I've been brought up. Each to their own I guess.

I could never imagine going up to a stranger and saying, "Hi, nice to meet you. So, how much money do you make?". In fact, I could never imagine asking any of my friends or family how much money they make either thinking about it.


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## colony nofi (May 21, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Because it's rude. Well, I think it is and it's how I've been brought up. Each to their own I guess.
> 
> I could never imagine going up to a stranger and saying, "Hi, nice to meet you. So, how much money do you make?". In fact, I could never imagine asking any of my friends or family how much money they make either thinking about it.


I certainly didn't mean it in that context. What I'm advocating for is a little more openness. It can really help!

I most definitely have conversations with friends / family about how much they make. And indeed with colleagues. 

I respect those who don't want to talk about it - there is certainly deep cultural negativity towards it in the states, and to a lesser extent, here in aus / parts of europe I've been lucky enough to experience. People do tend to judge their "worth" from what they earn - and that is unfortunate, but ingrained in culture/society.

However, I still cannot not (sorry - double negative) encourage talk about it when it comes to starting out in this business. I had a hard time with it - and only now understand how much came down to not understanding the power games at play. 

Perhaps a better way into the conversation is indeed to go talk to the different organisations that DO have this information collated. PCAM has AWESOME references when it comes to working out how much your jobs in the UK should be worth. Music producers at music houses have a wealth of info that they SHOULD be sharing with you in some way before you get signed / sign any deal. There are a number of houses now that work in a far more egalitarian way as well - which forces a very open sharing of earnings as its required for the running of the business. Every one of those I've known has been very successful as a result of everyone looking out for each other.

Even looser collectives of composers benefit from sharing this between each other.


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## Valérie_D (May 21, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Because it's rude. Well, I think it is and it's how I've been brought up. Each to their own I guess.
> 
> I could never imagine going up to a stranger and saying, "Hi, nice to meet you. So, how much money do you make?". In fact, I could never imagine asking any of my friends or family how much money they make either thinking about it.



I partially agree here but even if of course everyone is entitled to share or keep their income to themselves, I don't think it's wrong to ask since knowing about composers who have been doing library music for a long time is the only way of having an idea of the possibilities of the very particular business of writing music for libraries.

Lots of composers here have shared their income with me by private messages and Emmet Cooke did the same in his book.

Knowing that it is possible to make an income and having an idea of the time it can take and how many pieces is needed in my catalogue to achieve approximatively x amount of income was one of the reasons of the persistence I had in this industry so far.

It gave me an idea of how to measure my progress and not work completely in the dark.

5 years report on MLR was interesting as well as this poll although I don't know if the figures shared are true but it was anonymous and interesting :

https://musiclibraryreport.com/polls/music-composer-poll/

So for my part, the sharing of figures for this particular industry which is a long and random game is not about prying in everyone's business, it's about having some general ideas of the possible returns of my efforts by witnessing the experiences of other composers willing to share their path so far. Of course it's at everbody's discretion.

So far, my royalties have been very small but increasing about 30 $ each quarters to amount to 130 $ in may.
I had about 1700 $ in sync fees on a period of 3 years and I have 126 pieces in my catalogue so far. I compose very slowly!


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## Desire Inspires (May 21, 2017)

I didn't ask for specific amounts or income statements. No personal info or proof of identity is requested. I only wanted a range of what people are earning. 

Here is a video of what one guy earned from a BMI quarterly payout:


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## jononotbono (May 21, 2017)

Valérie_D said:


> Lots of composers here have shared their income with me by private messages and Emmet Cooke did the same in his book.




And that's fantastic that they have. Good for them and I think it's great that people are open and honest but I just can't imagine personally asking strangers how much they earn. I can only imagine the look I would get if, for example, I walked into the bank later today and said "Thanks for your help. Hey, I notice you're a floor manager. How much money do you earn?" Asking something like that feels really weird to me and feels rude. Maybe it's an English thing? haha! But I obviously understand the need to know about this business because any of us that are serious about spending the rest of our lives writing music need to figure out how to pay the bills doing so and the Music Industry is, after all, a long plastic hallway where pimps and thieves run free etc

Obviously Emmet Cooke will disclose this in his book. It doesn't make purchasing the book all that credible or useful if he leaves out the part of how much money he gets paid when it's a book about earning money in Library Writing.

You actually recommended that book to me a while ago and it's a great read. Since then I am working on my first two Library albums so I am a mere whipper snapper in the grand scheme of, well, everything but in this context, Library writing. It was a great help so thank you! I'll let you know how it went in ten years time


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## SillyMidOn (May 22, 2017)

Valérie_D said:


> 5 years report on MLR was interesting as well as this poll although I don't know if the figures shared are true but it was anonymous and interesting :
> 
> https://musiclibraryreport.com/polls/music-composer-poll/
> 
> So for my part, the sharing of figures for this particular industry which is a long and random game is not about prying in everyone's business, it's about having some general ideas of the possible returns of my efforts by witnessing the



... and the interesting thing about that is that only 10% of responders earned above $51k, which is roughly what I expected. There is that odd 26k-50k category with 7%. Odd in that if you are at the lower end of that (26k), you're really not earning a living, unless you live in a small flat and are single but good luck trying to support a family and having a decent living standard on that. At the top end of that category you'll start feeling comfortable. But still only 10% according to that poll are making a really good living (the two categories that are above 51K, so 51k to 100K and 100k plus). It's similar to what I have heard being said about actors. How many are actually making a living? 5-10%. 

Anyway, that means, according to that poll, 83% are not earning anything, really, which is sad.


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## Jaap (May 22, 2017)

What I earn, nobody will earn and what others earn, I will not earn. With this I want to say that every one of us is walking his/her own road and it depends on so many factors that any number will not give a good representation of your own situation. Numbers can be used as motivation of course (or demotivate) to persue a certain path, but it will not grant you any wisdom persé.
I shared in private conversations sometimes some insights in what I made, but only to show what worked me and till what level it paid off. But again for any other, even if you would write the same music/style, submit to the same libraries/projects it would not be a guarantee that it will pan out the same for you and it would be wrong to put your hopes or desillusions on those numbers.

Every situation that generated a certain income was based on unique events that will never ever occur again. The composer will never compose that exact music again (nor can it be done by any other if protected), but most important, never will the buyer(s) buy that again for those projects. The past is done, there is only the "now" where you will have to dictate your terms and set hopefully the right markers for anything that comes in the future.

Work hard, try to look ahead on what might work in the near future so you can jump in and create a good profit. But always be your honest self and never fake anything. Establish good contacts, deliver what you are asked to deliver. Learn to move on if things don't work out and change strategy if it doesn't work, don't get too emotional attached on failure (or success btw). Think in the long term and if you are not established financially, make sure to have good backup. If you get established financially, make sure you think also ahead of time and make plans for what if things would take a (bad turn) in for example 5 years and income dries up. And I cannot stress out the last part enough. I have faced this by own experience that a horrible life event and a shitload of bad luck on many levels caused a sudden fall down of everything. Make sure you protect yourself in every way possible.


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## gregh (May 22, 2017)

SillyMidOn said:


> ... and the interesting thing about that is that only 10% of responders earned above $51k, which is roughly what I expected. There is that odd 26k-50k category with 7%. Odd in that if you are at the lower end of that (26k), you're really not earning a living, unless you live in a small flat and are single but good luck trying to support a family and having a decent living standard on that. At the top end of that category you'll start feeling comfortable. But still only 10% according to that poll are making a really good living (the two categories that are above 51K, so 51k to 100K and 100k plus). It's similar to what I have heard being said about actors. How many are actually making a living? 5-10%.
> 
> Anyway, that means, according to that poll, 83% are not earning anything, really, which is sad.


reminds me of many years ago - in the 80s - when I won a national govt arts grant that was not of the absolute highest, but pretty good, a genuine prize. Good enough to be a once in a lifetime thing, you couldn't apply again. I was really pleased but after a while I realised, I couldn't even buy a new car with that money (cars being much more expensive back then). How was this career in any way going to deliver even a low income averaged over the lifespan? And of course in my country even a successful artist is unlikely to make an average income averaged across their working life


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## dannymc (May 22, 2017)

Valérie_D said:


> I partially agree here but even if of course everyone is entitled to share or keep their income to themselves, I don't think it's wrong to ask since knowing about composers who have been doing library music for a long time is the only way of having an idea of the possibilities of the very particular business of writing music for libraries.
> 
> Lots of composers here have shared their income with me by private messages and Emmet Cooke did the same in his book.
> 
> ...




i agree Valerie, as a new enough composer only doing the PRO back end game just over a year i think its nice to get some sort of idea of what is possible from an earnings point of view. i know there are so many factors that are at play when determining this figure from composer to composer and Emmet Cooke's covers alot of this in the section called "so how much can i earn". one thing i will say is that the earnings revealed by Emmet were at a time when there were probably about 50 or 60% less amateur and professional composers in this game and if you were to do the same exercise again starting this year you might not get even close to the figures he mentions in year one and year two. the market has becoming hugely saturated in the last 3 years especially in the RF end of the market and from what i can see he was talking about earnings in the lower tier RF libraries as he was just starting out. 

i think people can be a bit precious about their music when it comes to earnings. not sure why exactly because if this was a forum on stocks and shares we would have no problem discussing which have been the best performing stocks in the last 5 years and i think this PRO should be treated more like that style of investment, i.e a long term one. 

from the composers i've spoke to privately the PRO game seems to be something that grows and grows over time once you keep feeding it and have patience patience and more patience. its also clear that this is one of the most unpredictable industries to be in and is literally changing from week to week. i take my hat of to you composers that rely on this for your full time income. 

Danny


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## jononotbono (May 22, 2017)

dannymc said:


> i think this PRO should be treated more like that style of investment, i.e a long term one.



I've started calling it the Pension Plan!


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## doctornine (May 22, 2017)

Yup, mine too


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## Valérie_D (May 22, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> And that's fantastic that they have. Good for them and I think it's great that people are open and honest but I just can't imagine personally asking strangers how much they earn. I can only imagine the look I would get if, for example, I walked into the bank later today and said "Thanks for your help. Hey, I notice you're a floor manager. How much money do you earn?" Asking something like that feels really weird to me and feels rude.



Haha, yes I guess it would be rude because you would not be on a specialised forum with specific questions about a field we all share. I completely understand that income is a private information but I was glad that some composers shared it with me just to give me an idea of this field in itself. Actually I did work with the public in the past and I have been asked about my income, it was out of concern : do you hit minimum wage here?!


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## TimCox (May 22, 2017)

I think the question was innocent enough and maybe I'm just a little old school about that stuff. I personally think it's better if you go in understanding that you will likely not earn much if anything for a good five years. Goals are great but you better plan ahead. I'm finally earning the 'not much' portion!


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## dannymc (May 23, 2017)

TimCox said:


> I think the question was innocent enough and maybe I'm just a little old school about that stuff. I personally think it's better if you go in understanding that you will likely not earn much if anything for a good five years. Goals are great but you better plan ahead. I'm finally earning the 'not much' portion!



do you mean 5 years before you started earning anything from back-end? god that's depressing. 

Danny


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## StevenMcDonald (May 23, 2017)

dannymc said:


> do you mean 5 years before you started earning anything from back-end? god that's depressing.
> 
> Danny



I think he meant you should set your expectations low so you don't disappoint yourself. I got my first royalty deposit 1 year and 2 months after I first started sending music into a TV library.

But that can and will be vastly different from person to person. It will take at least 9 months (after the media airs) because that's how long it takes most cue sheets to be processed and royalties paid out. So that 9 months + however long it takes to get placements.


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## dannymc (May 23, 2017)

StevenMcDonald said:


> I think he meant you should set your expectations low so you don't disappoint yourself. I got my first royalty deposit 1 year and 2 months after I first started sending music into a TV library.
> 
> But that can and will be vastly different from person to person. It will take at least 9 months (after the media airs) because that's how long it takes most cue sheets to be processed and royalties paid out. So that 9 months + however long it takes to get placements.



i guess this is why services like tunesat are useful. do they tend to catch most placements?

Danny


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## StevenMcDonald (May 23, 2017)

dannymc said:


> i guess this is why services like tunesat are useful. do they tend to catch most placements?
> 
> Danny



I just have a free tunesat account, and there's really no way for me to tell if they catch most or all of the placements, because I don't know what placements I'm getting for the most part. But it definitely detects stuff.


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## TimCox (May 24, 2017)

StevenMcDonald said:


> I think he meant you should set your expectations low so you don't disappoint yourself.



Exactly. The average for how long it takes for any small business to start profiting (not just breaking even) is three to five years so it makes sense to operate within those parameters. Having high expectations is essential in this business, of course I want to be scoring films with some bigger budgets to make a profit and all that but I also know it can be a slow road!

We all want to be Apollo but we have to be Sputnik for a bit.


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