# Censorship Creep



## iaink (May 5, 2021)

Stage 1

It's my forum, posts contrary to my politics are dangerous and unacceptable.

Stage 2

Posts contrary to opinions of my preferred forum members and sample developers are dangerous and unacceptable.

Stage 3

Posts contrary to my understanding of medical science, virology, geology, and physics are dangerous and unacceptable.

Stage 4

Posts contrary to my understanding of all sciences, all facets of music, and how I feel on any subject are dangerous and unacceptable.

Stage 5

Tumbleweeds are dangerous and unacceptable.


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## chillbot (May 5, 2021)

Have you ever had an encounter with a tumbleweed? In the cartoons they are cute but in real life those things are thorny and sharp and 3x bigger than you think. Not joking. If you find tumbleweeds blowing at you in SoCal you had better find some shelter as quick as you can. Not to mention how strong the Santa Ana winds can gust. I second tumbleweeds being dangerous and unacceptable and glad we can agree on this.

Also you seem like you enjoy getting your posts deleted then.


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## Markrs (May 5, 2021)

Okay this seems a bit random (I take it this is directed at VIC forum?), any particular reason for this?

I'm always surprised when people think forums are a democracy, they are a group and like any group there will be rules, conventions and bias. Just like in the rest of society.

Anyway I can easily predict a move to the Drama Zone for this thread.


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## iaink (May 5, 2021)

chillbot said:


> Have you ever had an encounter with a tumbleweed? In the cartoons they are cute but in real life those things are thorny and sharp and 3x bigger than you think. Not joking. If you find tumbleweeds blowing at you in SoCal you had better find some shelter as quick as you can. Not to mention how strong the Santa Ana winds can gust. I second tumbleweeds being dangerous and unacceptable and glad we can agree on this.
> 
> Also you seem like you enjoy getting your posts deleted then.


This thread is dangerous and unacceptable.


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## Sarah Mancuso (May 5, 2021)

Imagine thinking VI-C actually policed the dumbass political posting that goes on here constantly.


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## nolotrippen (May 5, 2021)

iaink said:


> Stage 1
> 
> It's my forum, posts contrary to my politics are dangerous and unacceptable.
> 
> ...


Tumbleweeds are Russia's Number One Killer!


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## Trash Panda (May 5, 2021)

There’s plenty of places on the web to spread false information. I’m personally glad to see there’s not a tolerance for that tripe here.


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## dzilizzi (May 5, 2021)

+1 on the tumbleweeds. And don't try to run over them. They will be stuck under your car until your next oil change. 

I just got my second COVID shot. Do you think Bill Gates is tracking me yet? Or maybe it is Warner Bros. since my bandaid had Bugs Bunny on it. I'm sure there is micro trackers embedded in each Bugs Bunny picture.


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## Polkasound (May 5, 2021)

I think there's validity in some of what iaink said. It always pains me to see opinions or personal feelings guide forum moderation. No act of moderation should ever take place unless a specific rule, which applies equally to every member regardless of their stature or the content of their posts, is violated.



chillbot said:


> Have you ever had an encounter with a tumbleweed? In the cartoons they are cute but in real life those things are thorny and sharp and 3x bigger than you think. Not joking.


Once many years ago, I was driving through the Southwest and stopped along the highway where there were tumbleweeds darting around. I stopped to pick one up as a souvenir for a friend, but quickly let it go. I didn't want that prickly, dirty monstrosity in my car.



dzilizzi said:


> I just got my second COVID shot. Do you think Bill Gates is tracking me yet?


I can assure you, Bill Gates is not tracking you. Incidentally, you shouldn't have gone westbound on Hwy 210. It's under construction. Take Cherry Ave. south to Foothill Blvd.


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## chillbot (May 5, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> Incidentally, you shouldn't have gone westbound on Hwy 210. It's under construction. Take Cherry Ave. south to Foothill Blvd.


Um... I live less than a mile from the intersection of Hwy 210 and Foothill Blvd. And I just got my 2nd shot. WTF.


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## MA-Simon (May 5, 2021)

I have posted some weird rants and opinions on samples myself and never got reprimanded.
You can bet shure though, more often then not i regret my posts. They do feel good while writing, but shitty 1-2h after. Maybe it's the daily frustration of dealing with minuscule little annoyances that eventually add up. One thing I have learned from this is that I have no/low self control. I am trying to do better. But it is a hard thing to change.
Sometimes it is better to bottle up these feelings of frustration and remind myself that developers are people too. I know I can be lazy, so developers should be able to be lazy too. It balances out.

I am glad vi-control is here for me to unwind. So far, I don't see an issue with censorship.
I think all opinions can be heard and talked about. However this is _someones_ forum. So all things are open to a bit of accidents and randomness, which is just like it should be.


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## dbudimir (May 5, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> +1 on the tumbleweeds. And don't try to run over them. They will be stuck under your car until your next oil change.
> 
> I just got my second COVID shot. Do you think Bill Gates is tracking me yet? Or maybe it is Warner Bros. since my bandaid had Bugs Bunny on it. I'm sure there is micro trackers embedded in each Bugs Bunny picture.



Actually I think it could be Melinda Gates? The whole reason for the divorce. LOL


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## dzilizzi (May 5, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> I think there's validity in some of what iaink said. It always pains me to see opinions or personal feelings guide forum moderation. No act of moderation should ever take place unless a specific rule, which applies equally to every member regardless of their stature or the content of their posts, is violated.
> 
> 
> Once many years ago, I was driving through the Southwest and stopped along the highway where there were tumbleweeds darting around. I stopped to pick one up as a souvenir for a friend, but quickly let it go. I didn't want that prickly, dirty monstrosity in my car.
> ...


I had to go to Kern County to get the shot. LA County was out in my area. I should mention that where I live, Bakersfield and downtown LA are probably equal distance, miles-wise, but Bakersfield is an hour closer. 

And? Since I am a Windows user? Bill Gates has already been tracking me for years..... Though not as much as AT&T and Google. But I get what you are saying.


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## Trash Panda (May 5, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> I just got my second COVID shot. Do you think Bill Gates is tracking me yet? Or maybe it is Warner Bros. since my bandaid had Bugs Bunny on it. I'm sure there is micro trackers embedded in each Bugs Bunny picture.


I can't speak to the tracking, but my cell reception has been amazing since I got my second Fauci Ouchie.


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## Toecutter (May 5, 2021)

You can go absolutely mental in this forum when discussing samples, just don't get personal. Same about preferred forum members and sample developers, just don't get personal or stalk Hans Zimmer. Politics, religion, covid... I think I never clicked the political subforum XD but after reading some mod interventions in the drama zone, unless you are a moron and vomit lies that can endanger other people's lives, you should be safe too.


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## Reid Rosefelt (May 5, 2021)

I am not an idiot and I know that this post was done tongue-in-cheek, but it does raise an issue that's worthy of discussion.

Censorship is when some authority like the gov or church says you can't do something. Like, for example, shout "You are stupid, you have no talent, your music sucks, and you should give up trying" or whatever.  There is freedom of speech and they can't stop you from speaking your mind in the US of A. However, I can establish how I want people to be treated in my apartment. It's my house and if you want to come here, you have to follow my rules, or I won't invite you again. This happens to be Mike Greene's house.

Correct me if I'm wrong because I wasn't around in those days, but I believe the ONLY reason that VI-Control exists is that things became so nasty and unpleasant on another forum that people didn't like going there. VI:Control was solely created to have a place where stupid conflicts weren't allowed to fester. The goal was "musicians helping musicians." Thank you Frederick Russ for founding this wonderful forum.

Maybe somebody knows more about what happened around the founding of VI:Control. Perhaps I am overstating it.

Later, when issues came up that made some uncomfortable with Frederick's supervision, Mike jumped in to save the day. I think he paid $$$ for the honor of ceaseless hassle. 

So basically my feeling is that this is Mike Greene's forum, and he can do whatever he wants with it. Thank God for him. I'm sure he has a lot better ways to spend his time than to try and find the right ways to keep the dialogue civil here, without getting everybody mad at him.

And if anybody objects to anything he does, it's a free country--nobody is forcing you to come here. There are plenty of composers and music and virtual instrument forums.


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## Mike Greene (May 5, 2021)

iaink said:


> Stage 1
> 
> It's my forum, posts contrary to my politics are dangerous and unacceptable.


VI-Control is not a political forum. As I explain in this thread, cleverly titled, "Yes, I'm Deleting a Lot of Posts," I delete _most_ political posts, right or left. In fact, you'll notice there's only one thread that's had any posts in the last week. (Only one! Hooray!) And that one's a slam from a right wing guy against political correctness, yet you'll notice I've done no moderating in it.

The thread before that (over a week since any new posts) is about bible interpretations. Obviously a potentially dangerous topic, right? But it's a great thread, I like to believe in part because I've taken the actions I've taken to clean up the nonsense in the political section and make the section more about _interesting_ topics, rather than fighting over dumb stuff.



iaink said:


> Stage 2
> 
> Posts contrary to opinions of my preferred forum members and sample developers are dangerous and unacceptable.


I assume this is because you're upset that I deleted your post in the "Bullshit on the Forum" thread yesterday. Again, this was obviously a thread headed for danger, but it resolved in a positive way, thanks to this great community we have here. It drifted into potentially long tangents yesterday, though. Mostly good natured, but I believe it detracted from the positive message the thread had resolved to, plus I don't think most members want to continually see a thread with "Bullshit" in the title in their Latest Posts feed, so I deleted 30 posts (literally 30, one of which was yours) and closed the thread.

I don't expect everyone to agree with this move, or with any of my moderating decisions, but alas, such is the way VI-Control is run.



iaink said:


> Stage 3
> 
> Posts contrary to my understanding of medical science, virology, geology, and physics are dangerous and unacceptable.


If a post starts with the words, _"The vaccine is killing people every day,"_ then absofuckinglutely, I'm going to delete it. Science is science. Dumbshits are dumbshits. I have no interest in letting the two mix on this forum.

Similarly, I also delete Kamala in kneepads memes (you know, because that's how she rose up in politics, and yes, people have posted them) and I've deleted homophobic and Islamophobic posts. Granted, this gives an appearance of a liberal bias, but ... with me on one side, and guys like this on the other side, is it really _me_ who needs to take a harder look at myself?



iaink said:


> Stage 4
> 
> Posts contrary to my understanding of all sciences, all facets of music, and how I feel on any subject are dangerous and unacceptable.


The "sciences" part should be in Stage 3, but it will probably be another month or two before we get to Stage 4 regarding which musical tastes are acceptable. Just so no one is caught off guard, I'll make a chart ahead of time.


iaink said:


> Stage 5
> 
> Tumbleweeds are dangerous and unacceptable.


Agreed.


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## prodigalson (May 5, 2021)

From the Encyclopedia Brittanca's entry on "Censorship"

Definition: "*Censorship*, the changing or the suppression or prohibition of speech or writing that is deemed subversive of the common good."

"To make much of freedom of expression is to encourage a liberation of the self from the constraints of the community. It may even be to assume that the self has, intrinsic to it or somehow available to it independent of any social guidance, intimations of what it is and what it wants. Thus, liberation may be seen in the desire of most people to be free to pursue their own goals and life plans—which may involve a reliance upon standards and objectives that are solely their own. It is tempting, in such circumstances, to adopt a radical subjectivism that tends to result in a thoroughgoing relativism with respect to moral and political judgments. One consequence of this approach is to identify an ever-expanding array of forms and media of expression that are entitled to immunity from government regulation—including not only broadcast and print media (books and newspapers) but also text messaging and Internet media such as blogs, social networking sites, and e-commerce sites.


On the other hand, if the emphasis is placed upon the more traditional language, “freedom of speech and of the press,” the requirements and prerogatives of a self-governing people are apt to be made more of. This means, among other things, that a people must be prepared and equipped to make effective use of its considerable political power. (Even those rulers who act without the authority of the people must take care to shape their people in accordance with the needs and circumstances of their regime. This kind of effort need not be altogether selfish on the part of such rulers, since all regimes do have an interest in law and order, in common decency, and in a routine reliability or loyalty.) It should be evident that a people entrusted with the power of self-government must be able to exercise a disciplined judgment: not everything goes, and there are better and worse things awaiting the community and its citizens."

TL;DR: Censorship is not a universal evil in all contexts and there has always been a tension between the good of the individual and the good of the community.


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## doctoremmet (May 5, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> If a post starts with the words, _"The vaccine is killing people every day,"_ then absofuckinglutely, I'm going to delete it. Science is science. Dumbshits are dumbshits. I have no interest in letting the two mix on this forum.


Thanks Mike. This literally made my day. I highly appreciate you making this clear. ❤️


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## MA-Simon (May 5, 2021)

My first deleted post. :3 I am so happy!


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## dzilizzi (May 5, 2021)

MA-Simon said:


> My first deleted post. :3 I am so happy!


My first deleted post came with an apology - "Sorry, your post was fine but I'm deleting all the posts on this subject" sort of thing. 

I have to say, if this was my forum, I would probably delete more than Mike does. Fortunately, it is not and I am not a moderator. And? I think for the most part, we moderate each other fairly well.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (May 5, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> bible interpretations


Bible intepretations on a music forum?

I tend to go to my Pastor about that, or perhaps another member of my congregation or even a book... like the Bible!

But I have to just say I would never come to a Music Forum to talk about my Faith (and I am one of the more devoted Protestants as anyone who met me would tell you)
I don't say that to present brownie points, just to state it is the central-point of my life

What a bizarre place the internet is 

Perhaps next tiime I will ask spitfire support about their thoughts on the resurrection


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## Trash Panda (May 5, 2021)

Mike is pretty level headed in how he runs this place. If he’s deleting your posts, chances are the fault is with you and not with his moderating style.

Note: I have not received free products from Realitone.


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## robgb (May 5, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Note: I have not received free products from Realitone.


I, however, would like to.


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## Mike Greene (May 5, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> If he’s deleting your posts, chances are the fault is with you and not with his moderating style.


In this case, I wouldn't even use the word "fault." The responses to the _"Ain't gettin' a vaccine!"_ guy were totally fine. It's just that this was something that was obviously going to get out of control. (I think I left explanations to that effect, but I often screw that up, so maybe not.)


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## InLight-Tone (May 5, 2021)

I think we should delete and censor:
ill-be-making-a-big-announcement-this-month


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## SupremeFist (May 5, 2021)

I used to write a minorly prominent blog with comments enabled, and the only thing that worked for me to make it a place for really interesting, respectful discussion (which it was!) was to moderate the troublemakers really mercilessly, harshly, and probably sometimes unfairly, until it became self-policing for the most part. Obviously it wasn't "censorship" if I declined to use the bandwidth I was paying for to publish some random dude's abuse, nor is it here.

I'm actually amazed how civilised this forum is given Mike has such a light hand with moderation, which is one of the reasons I love the place. 🤘🏻


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## Mike Greene (May 5, 2021)

ka00 said:


> I made a poorly worded post yesterday in that thread stating that soliciting feedback can help on the path to turning mediocre work into great work. A sort of verbal fertilizer (bullshit on this forum, if you will!). I definitely didn't mean to lump William's music into that term "mediocre", in case it came across that way. It is fair to say that his music, like @iank stated is in the top 1% of work shared on the forum. I deleted that post before Mike could, but I apologize @MikeGreene if that contributed to sullying the positive resolution. PS: Check out William's 60 minute film if you get a chance. Really great music.


Not at all. Seemed totally fine to me, and I wouldn't have deleted it. To be clear, 99% of people here are totally cool and have no reason to apologize for anything. The last thing I want is for people like you to think you need to watch what you say. You don't. For 99% of us, it's in our nature to be cool without worrying about it, so definitely carry on how you normally would.

The mass of posts I deleted yesterday were side topics, that were amusing and completely fine in a normal thread, but for a volatile thread like that one, the sooner it ends, the better, so I felt Guy's and Dear Villain's posts were nice endings and I closed it there.


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## dohm (May 5, 2021)

This is the best forum on the interwebs, imo. Thanks for the thoughtful moderating Mike! I really like reading the majority of posts here.


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## Toecutter (May 5, 2021)

I'm very thankful to @ka00 for sharing Kersten's video (it got deleted with other posts) because I didn't know the guy's work and became a fan XD I dig 40s mysterious surreal Val Lewton-ish sort of mindfuck and Althyria did all that with great mastery. 60 minutes went by and I was left speechless thinking how we were discussing some internet meltdown instead of celebrating that man's amazing work ethic. I hope Mike won't mind me sharing it again?




And great great great music by a great composer that shouldn't have left and only needed a big hug!


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## GNP (May 5, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> VI-Control is not a political forum. As I explain in this thread, cleverly titled, "Yes, I'm Deleting a Lot of Posts," I delete _most_ political posts, right or left.


I beg to differ, because the mods here delete more of the right than the left, in my personal experience.

Also, please don't pretend like VI "isn't a political forum", when mods here have started "ONLY WOMEN" threads, and have deleted posts made by men, even when they're leaning towards the mods.


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## darkogav (May 5, 2021)

A lot of music forums are populated by their fair share of looney tunes. I actually find VI-Control one of the most civil. Just stick to discussing music and stay away from politics.


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## robgb (May 5, 2021)

GNP said:


> I beg to differ, because the mods here delete more of the right than the left, in my personal experience.


There's a reason for this and it has nothing to do with bias. Mike explained it perfectly in his response to the OP.


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## MauroPantin (May 5, 2021)

I'm going to ignore momentarely the fact that this is a private forum and if the owner wants to run it as a LiBeRaL ShEePlE eChO cHaMbEr, he's well in his right to do so and you are free to just, you know, close your browser.



iaink said:


> Posts contrary to my understanding of medical science, virology, geology, and physics are dangerous and unacceptable.


This is a misrepresentation of what happens when this kind of issues are discussed. The scientific paradigm we live under is achieved by consensus, not by looking up fringe conspiracy theories or disseminating anecdotal evidence as the truth of a complex situation. Scientists are always very clear about what the consensus is and where the possible holes in their hypothesis are. So far, and at least in the experiences I have watched unfold in my time here, Mike and all other moderators have always based decisions on what the general scientific consensus is. I welcome any evidence to the contrary to change my mind.

I'm not trying to overstep my bounds and speak for Mike here, but I absolute support this statement: Posts contrary to the concurrent general consensus of medical science, virology, geology and physics (and other disciplines)* that are not backed up with hard data* ARE dangerous and should not be allowed.

Whoever disagrees with the consensus should either go test any hypothesis they may hold and come back with actual data (a google search, a post from a soccer mom Facebook group or anecdotal evidence portrayed as the reality of the whole population of the planet are not data) OR get a refund on their education, 'cuz the scientific method is taught in elementary school. The third and better option is to accept people who devote their life to science might know a thing or two the rest of us don't and maybe accept that consensus.

If none of those option works, then more power to whoever deletes that crap and prevents it from being disseminated. We don't live in the middle ages, most of this stuff is measurable and there's tons of empirical evidence that support some of the incredibly BASIC truths that have to be defended day after day against PhDs graduated magna-cum-asshole from University of YouTube. 

I'm sorry to be blunt and rude, but I am absolutely tired of reading this kind of bullshit. All of this was predicted by Carl Sagan in "The Demon Haunted World" and yet it couldn't be avoided; and now people that use a GPS daily run amok telling others that the earth is flat, it's fucking depressing.


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## iaink (May 5, 2021)

I didn't say anything about vaccines, knee pads, or the rest of it.

I posted something about a member's music, and criticized what I thought was quite a cruel attack... got deleted anyway.

Stage 4.


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## CT (May 5, 2021)

Does this thread title refer to the insidious creep of censorship, or imply that MikeG is a censoring creep?


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## Mike Greene (May 5, 2021)

iaink said:


> I didn't say anything about vaccines, knee pads, or the rest of it.


Seems to me three of your five Stages are about how I moderate politics and science, but okay.



iaink said:


> I posted something about a member's music, and criticized what I thought was quite a cruel attack... got deleted anyway.


File this one under "Late to the Party." Whether or not it was a cruel attack was already covered pretty well in the thread, and people had moved on to the group hug stage. I'm not a fan of gratuitous drama in the main sections of the forum, so I made a decision to end the thread on a high note. (IMO this last page of the thread is a pretty nice ending, and I imagine the 29 other people whose posts were also deleted would agree. Without posting in two separate threads to complain about it.)

You may disagree, but at the end of the day, the forum is a take-it-or-leave affair. I'm at peace with the fact that I'll never please everyone, so it's up to you to decide whether you can accept that.


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## José Herring (May 5, 2021)

I got a post deleted in the infamous thread yesterday and I cried myself to sleep last night. 

In all seriousness though, I'm not a fan of the title of the thread at all. Seems like a thinly veiled intentional play on words to make the meaning ambiguous. Mike is way more tolerant than I would be.


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## givemenoughrope (May 5, 2021)

Go ahead, forum gods, delete this...i dare you.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 5, 2021)

_Do not post inflammatory silliness followed by sanctimonious stuff about freedom of speech and censorship when it gets deleted in the interest of avoiding inevitable brawls that make the forum unpleasant.
Nick Batzdorf_


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## iaink (May 5, 2021)

José Herring said:


> I got a post deleted in the infamous thread yesterday and I cried myself to sleep last night.
> 
> In all seriousness though, I'm not a fan of the title of the thread at all. Seems like a thinly veiled intentional play on words to make the meaning ambiguous. Mike is way more tolerant than I would be.


I thought this was a pretty common and well understood term - alternate meaning didn't even occur to me. Maybe it should be deleted to prevent confusion.


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## AudioLoco (May 5, 2021)

When I started visiting these parts of the interweb I was right away pleasantly surprised from how an online forum could be so civilized, well mannered, helpful and just ...pleasant.









*I've seen things you* people wouldn't believe in other places where talking about a compressor or any other argument becomes an excuse for uncalled of verbal violence, often abuse, and just a general aggressive and tense vibe all the time.

I think this comes down to the vast majority of amazing and friendly composer folks that populate these pages, but also to the clever and sensible moderation done here.


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## Eloy (May 5, 2021)

chillbot said:


> Have you ever had an encounter with a tumbleweed? In the cartoons they are cute but in real life those things are thorny and sharp and 3x bigger than you think. Not joking. If you find tumbleweeds blowing at you in SoCal you had better find some shelter as quick as you can. Not to mention how strong the Santa Ana winds can gust. I second tumbleweeds being dangerous and unacceptable and glad we can agree on this.
> 
> Also you seem like you enjoy getting your posts deleted then.


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