# A question about copyrights...



## nikolas (Sep 23, 2009)

So...

I got a very small gig (a couple of minutes of music) for a freeware computer game. The guy is very nice, as it seems and I believe I've composed some GREAT music for him. 

There is a flat fee, after my recomendation of $1000. A couple of minutes, for a freeware game cannot get better than this.

The problem lies elsewhere: I grew VERY fond of the piece and I really think it could work great in many occasions, even grow to become a hymn or something, etc, etc. Maybe a huge idea of myself, but anyways. And he wants the copyrights of course. 

Thus far I was able to license my music and keep copyrights with various computer games I did, but this time I don't think I'll be able to do that.

So what happens now?

I don't want to use it to other media, at least not right now; there are no plans. It could become big, in which case I'd like to get compensation for that. I could develop it and make it into a full concert hall piece. I could lend it to TV/other media. But if I don't have the copyrights I can't do that, can I?

Computer games don't have royalties, but other media do. I don't really mind not being able to 'sell' the particular recording. But I would like to get royalties if it was played on air, on other media, etc. And I'd like to be able to change it to make it into a concert hall piece.

I'm asking too much, no? 

Anyways, any comments on the royalties part, would be great, since I've never had to deal with any of that, and since the developer is in the US, very few lawyers (and I don't know them) would be able to help me here in Greece.


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## midphase (Sep 23, 2009)

This connects in a way to a similar discussion about PRO's and Unions in another thread.

The problem is that we, as creators, feel a sense of pride and ownership that at times is simply working against us.

IMHO, the piece that you're talking about might or might not ever make you more than $1000...you don't know that for sure, you're only speculating. Your speculation is leading you to question whether or not you should sell it at all (and quite possibly lose the only money that you know for sure you will gain from it).

I honestly think you are overthinking this, and you're applying a black and white interpretation of the rules that might or might not be necessary in this case.

Here's my take:

Videogames are short lived, they simply are and that's a fact. In about 2-3 years, not only will the public have forgotten about this particular game, but so will the actual developer. Even if he owns the full copyright of your piece, I find it hard to believe that in a few years he'd be enough of a douche to deny you to use the piece as you see fit after the game has run its course. Let's call this a "gentleman's agreement"

Secondly, as composers, we can get away with murder when it comes to ripping ourselves off (just ask Mr.Zimmer.....why oh why did I say that?). Seriously, as an artist, you can plagiarize yourself quite heavily, and defend yourself in front of a judge (if it ever came down to that) by simply saying "that's my style!" If you plan on expanding this piece and turn it into a symphonic work, I think the chances of this game publisher coming after you and actually winning the case is so remote that you shouldn't worry about it.

Lastly, it's quite possible that what you think is the greatest piece you've ever written until now, will no longer be when you write your next piece. I do that all the time, the latest piece I write is always the best thing I ever done, and then I write something else and kinda lose my crush for the older piece. You're neck deep into the "honeymoon" of this latest cue. Give it some time, in a few months you might not feel as strongly about it as you do today.

In conclusion....take the money, sign the deal, move on with life!


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## germancomponist (Sep 23, 2009)

In short words: I would only give him a free licence for free if the game will be freeware.

When he starts to sell it o.s.e., than he must pay for licenses.... .

Nikolas, has my e-mail arrived? I wrote an e-mail because your pm-box at the other forum was full.


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## midphase (Sep 23, 2009)

Ok...I know Hans is reading this thread....sorry Hans, I didn't mean to single you out there.

How about we add Elfman there too? All better? No?

Ok, I'll throw in Glass...how's that? Badelt? Damn, even Williams has been known to use some similar sounding cues here and there....Spielberg doesn't seem to mind!

Ok ok....I take it back....all you guys are wholly original all the time and none of your scores ever sound even remotely similar...happy?


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## nikolas (Sep 23, 2009)

Yes, Gunther, e-mail has arrived. I'm actually rather furstrated that I didn't get a chance to see you, but either way you went straight to Crete, so there wouldn't be a chance. Happy birthday never the less and all the best!

Kays you've given me one of the best analysis I could expect.! Covered 99% of my questions I think! Thanks for that! Thank you for your common sense! 

EDIT: Well, when Doscina sees this he will be thrilled! And I SO agree with you about Elfmer and Zimmerman! :D


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## synergy543 (Sep 23, 2009)

Nikolas you're a composer, why not write variations on your own themes if you wish to later use them?

Close to 100% of my music is owned by Sony and other large Japanese companies and I sold it outright with no formal contracts. I would not re-use any of that material "verbatim" for another project nor would I want to. They own the music, but I own the creativity so I could easily rework any of that material if I desired.

This way, I don't need to worry about contracts or lawyers.

As I see it, there are an unlimited number of ideas so why would I want to go back to an old one other than possibly to create a new permutation?

Greg


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## Jaap (Sep 23, 2009)

As you know Nikolas I also deal on daily base with videogames.

What I tend to do with developpers with a low budget that doesn't allow a big buyout, but where you feel sympathy to and actually want to work with them is to offer them a contract with a temporary exclusive license for 6 or 12 months. If the game remains popular and they want to continue the license they can extend it for another sum of $$$. If not then your music is free again after 6 or 12 months and you can do with it whatever you want.

Most casual and indie developpers really like this structure so maybe you could offer him this?


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## synergy543 (Sep 23, 2009)

Niah @ Wed Sep 23 said:


> Can we really do this? I mean can I take a theme that I wrote for a film, do rendtion of it on a string quartet, piano or turn into a big symphonic work? Can I sell it if I want it too?


I "hear" composers doing it all the time. I think its mostly a stylistic thing rather than intentional copying - and composers mostly copy themselves probably due to established patterns rather than blatant copying or lack of creativity. Zimmer will always sound like Zimmer (or Holst or whomever he's "quoting"), Elfman will sound like Elfman (with those tinkly bells, strings and choirs), and I can't tell you how many times I've heard the Williamesque ET "fly over the moon quote" in other movies (or woodwind demos)...or the Jaws quote, or Psycho. So yeah, composers are copying and permutating all the time. A literal quote might get you into legal trouble on a big project but you don't have to be literal to plant or trigger the "meme idea" in the viewers mind. It doesn't take too many repeated low semi-tones to see the JAWs of your listener breakout into a wry smile. :lol: Its like reminding someone of McDonalds by showing them a burger with red and gold colors - you don't need to write the name or show the golden arches. McDonalds own the trademark, but not the colors or the burger. 



Niah @ Wed Sep 23 said:


> When you say you own the creativity you are speaking informally right? :D



You can give a man a fish, or a finished track, but if you give him a fishing pole or a quill....you get the idea. :wink:


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## autopilot (Sep 23, 2009)

Easy. License him the specific recording - give him appropriate use, and retain the composition rights yourself. 

They're different things. All your game guy wants is rights to use THE RECORDING in his game. He won't care what you do with the melody and harmony beyond that, and probably won't recognise it anyway. 


Keep the piece, do what you like with it.


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## autopilot (Sep 23, 2009)

Re-read your original post - I suspect your guy doesn't know what the difference is in those two copyrights.

Is he wanting to use the piece again? As the theme to the games sequel and not pay you again? Because then the theme's copyright is an issue and you are negotiating a different kettle of fish. 

But otherwise I'm sure his concern is that he pay you once for usage for this project and thats it. 

Show you understand that and explain the difference and I reckon all will be tickety boo.


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## midphase (Sep 23, 2009)

"but, on the part of making somehting like it... if you make something similar to an already existing work wouldnt that constitute a derivative work... ??"


Yes, but I don't think that it's as big of an issue in 99% of the cases. Unless we're talking about music motifs that are extremely tied in with a particular product (Intel's 5 note theme for example) I think the possibilities of a client going after a composer for sounding like himself are pretty small.

Since I'm not a lawyer and I only play one on VI Control, you should evaluate your risks on a case by case basis and decide for yourself if you should chance it or not. If it makes you feel any better, I don't think that in the history of modern entertainment that has been a single legal case brought up against a composer accused of ripping himself off.


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## Stevie (Sep 27, 2009)

Out of my experience I would say:
just don't give him an exclusive license for the music so you can still use the piece your own.
Of course you won't get a 1000$ for a non-exclusive rights.

Are you member of a PRO btw?


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## Markus S (Sep 29, 2009)

Well, I don't see why it has to be a buy-out in this situation.. You can simply license the music to him, and be able to use it elsewhere, simply explain that you have to get more income from it. If the "new and unique" effect is important, promise them to not commercialize the music within 6 months, so it won't be heard anywhere else, in the meantime.


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## nikolas (Sep 29, 2009)

I finally licensed the music for video gaming. My hesitation was simply because the game is a freeware game, so I was discouraged to ask more money, or try to be too pushy... 

Thanks for all the help guys! ^_^


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## scottbuckley (Sep 29, 2009)

Markus S @ Tue Sep 29 said:


> Well, I don't see why it has to be a buy-out in this situation.. You can simply license the music to him, and be able to use it elsewhere, simply explain that you have to get more income from it. If the "new and unique" effect is important, promise them to not commercialize the music within 6 months, so it won't be heard anywhere else, in the meantime.



My thoughts exactly... exclusive use for a set period of time. That way he gets the use he needs, and you get time to develop it into something full-fledged.

-s


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## midphase (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm happy that Nikolas reached an amiable agreement. 

Regarding licensing vs. buy-out etc. I think unfortunately a lot of it comes down to confusion and miseducation of legal practices and how things work. Gaming schools I'm afraid don't help much with contractual knowhow and real-world legal situations.

Most game developers are told early on that it's better if they own everything....regardless of whether it's true or not. On the simpler level, this is in order to keep contracts as simple and straightforward as possible. Non exclusive licensing, or timed-exclusive licensing can get complex quickly. Sometime it's almost easier to let them have it their way, and then politely ask after the fact for permission to re-use the music on other projects (as I said, after about one or two years, most developers won't really care).

In truth, gaming developers license a lot of stuff, most of the time they're simply not given a choice. For example, gaming engines are almost all licensed, so are songs in games, same it true for logos, name and face likenesses and many other game assets.

In closing, if you're up to educating your clients, there is a chance that they might see the light and realize that owning the music doesn't benefit them anymore than licensing it. However, if doing so means losing the work or diminishing your $$$, you need to weigh the pros and cons and determine if it's worth it or not.


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