# How do you add reverb?



## bluejay (Aug 15, 2007)

Right, so I'm finally get my head around ERs, tails and all of that fun stuff.

So I'm mixing various libraries including VSL, Westgate, SISS and EW.

VSL and Westgate are basically dry. EW is pre-panned with full room ambience and reverb tails. SISS is somewhere in the middle.

At the moment I'm creating an FX track for Early Reflections using Pristine Space and ERs from a Samplicity impulse (Medium Hall).

I'm then creating an ambience FX track.

I'm splitting my Kontakt instances into sections that are about the same distance from the stage (i.e. strings, woodwinds, brass, percussion) and then using 2 different outputs: wet and dry.

Wet outputs have no effects added. For the dry outputs I add some reverb using the send effects ... I add more send for instruments further back.

Finally I'll add some reverb onto the entire track.

Does this seem like a reasonable approach?

Should I be putting ERs as insert rather than send effects?

Do I need a separate instance of Pristine Space for each section (rather than differing levels of the same effect)? 

Will it be 100 times as complicated when my copy of Altiverb arrives?

All help much appreciated.


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## Frederick Russ (Aug 15, 2007)

(Disclaimer: seating arrangement not definitive)

Click http://www.vi-control.com/spatial_overview_orchestra.jpg (here) for larger pic.

I'm no expert first off - these are just observations I've made over the years. For me I find it easier to first visualize a bird's eye view of the orchestra. The above example is _not_ standard (I prefer trumpets and trombones panned to the right between 80-112 and violas between 48-80 but at least you see my point). _This is not the definitive seating arrangement._ 

I've placed in midi panning markers however as a way to divide the orchestra essentially in 2D left and right. Regarding getting those instrument sections front and back, its important to understand that a solo instrument or instrument section is going to sound differently based on where on the sound stage they occupy in relation to the room size. Another thing to consider is that certain instruments naturally excite the room differently than others - the oboe vs timpani for instance. 

For instance, using a dry sample of a timpani hit (based on the illustration), the early reflections would be bouncing back from the wall next to it as well as behind, from the floor of the sound stage. A slightly later reflection would be bouncing from the wall next to the violins. Loose reflections could be generated from the ceiling and walls of the auditorium. Long reflections are what we generally recognize as natural reverb with long tails.

Therefore, at least four dimensions - the actual dry sound, and 3 reflections: early, loose and long. 

Take care when using bus sends because you're still blending dry and wet and you may need to add even more spatial elements - keep in mind that you are also increasing the volume for every send you use so you'll need to re-adjust the volume if you're going this route. Going back to the timpani, its going to require a different treatment than say harp. Both excite the room but differently - the reflections are being perceived from the listener as bouncing off different aspects of the room. Also, the conductor is hearing things more pronounced panning-wise than the listener seated at row ten so you'll need to determine where your actual audience is in this room to make better judgments regarding panning and depth.



> Will it be 100 times as complicated when my copy of Altiverb arrives?



It could be. Altiverb is CPU intensive so you may need to use it during the mixdown stage rather than in real time - meaning that you'll probably need to bounce each instrument section separately to create a multi track of your mockup. You'll then be able apply the proper gradations of spatial elements in multiple instances of Altiverb. Of course this is only one way of working - use what works for you.

Hope this helps.


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## Hannes_F (Aug 15, 2007)

... all is fine except Altiverb is light on the CPU even if you decativate the "Efficient high-latency mode". I run ... wait ... six instances of Altiverb while recording.


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## bluejay (Aug 16, 2007)

Wow! Thank you for the reply Frederick. 

So, I understand the ideas behind your post: different instruments behave in different way (some instruments are more directional than others, etc) and are obviously placed in different areas of the room.

Here's a follow-up set of related questions: 

Do you add reverbs on the inserts of channels rather than sends? It sounds like you do from your previous post. 

How do you break up your reverbs in terms of reflections (early, loose, long) and sections? For instance do you use different early reflections for each section but the same long reflections for the whole orchestra?

If you're incorporating East West or SISS libraries, how do you use reverb? Do you remove the tails from the samples and then only add long reverb?

Do you add a final ambience to the whole mix?

Do you have a standard template for this or do you tend to change on a per mix basis?

Thanks again for this info Frederick. You clearly know a lot about this subject.

cheers


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## Frederick Russ (Aug 16, 2007)

Hi bluejay,

Again, I'm not an expert but you could try it several ways. Example: for VSL strings for instance I have a bus filled with an IR that kind of matches the room ambiance of SISS with the dry/wet signal already set and simply use that as the output for VSL strings. A second bus with your hall IR can be set to 100% wet OR as another wet/dry mix and you can either use your send from the first bus to the second or output the first bus to the second (which in turn outputs to your master 1/2 out). The SISS can be directed to the second bus, bypassing the first since it doesn't need it. Experiment, trust your ears and most importantly, be objective - meaning to get opinions from others you trust regarding your mixes. 

It gets more interesting when you start defining depth of field for the other instruments like brass and percussion which are further back and excite the room differently. So you may need a series of IR's on separate busses and use your ears for the final mix. Hope this helps!


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## bluejay (Sep 7, 2007)

Ok, so I've started working with Altiverb and I've slightly changed my ap

i have for years worked with customized library consisting predominantly of miroslav, but with vienna, siedlecek, apple jam packs (which i think are just licensed from vienna) and some custom recorded stuff, all blended together into 1 exs instrument per orchestral part. i access the different articulations using program changes that are converted into controller messages.

the miroslav stuff is fantastic but there are limitations. for example in certain ranges the sound becomes - wrong. probably an artifact of the transposition (the samples are recorded in 3rds).

recently i have had some success blending a little symphoia strings into them - but really - and like everyone else - i am really hanging out to get my hands on LASS.

never-the-less in certain contexts the miroslav strings are just the bomb.

i have come to the conclusion that just like live players, you have to work to get them to sound they way you want, and just like live players, it is probably worth having a selection to choose between their different strengths.

however unlike live players, my biggest frustrat


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Sep 15, 2007)

Hey Samplicity users! 

I have also experimented with ER-only impulses but I found the results not optimal. I get better results with Waves Trueverb as an insert effect for dry instruments (some 5 instances I believe). This nicely puts dry instruments further backwards. Since I have these ERs added and since I also have channels with "wet" instruments I make sure that my two reverb busses do not add too much effect in the 0-120 msec range, to avoid too much ER's.
If you have the TrueVerb, experiment with the ERs (not the tail, that's old school stuff). o/~


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## bluejay (Oct 2, 2007)

Here's a problem I'm having with Altiverb.

Sometimes I want to add almost 100% insert of Altiverb ER on an instrument however I find that this kills any stereo placement (and often seems to mirror the instrument to the other side of the mix).

At the moment I'm adding Altiverbs on each section (wind, brass, strings, perc) so I can't try and use Altiverb's built-in placing approach. I just don't want it to change what I've already done (using Waves).

Is there any way I can avoid this or am I simply doing things wrong here?


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## bluejay (Dec 2, 2007)

Hi guys, after a couple of months of working with this problem, I'm still getting placement issues in Altiverb.

I tried following the examples given in the docs but I find that I often get the opposite effect... I set my virtual speakers to the far left but the right hand channel ends up louder.

My actual stereo setup is fine for everything else though.

Is anyone else getting this problem?


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## Daryl (Dec 2, 2007)

OK, here is the way I do it. I have each instrument coming out its own VST output. I pan according to the width and horizontal placement that I require. I use a send from each of these to a Reverb Group Channel, where I use an Altiverb instance set to 100% Wet. I then route each VST output to a group channel, according to section, where I have another instance of Altiverb set at 100%with stage placement activated for depth, and all of them use a short studio reverb. These groups are then routed to the Master group as is the Reverb instance.

Obviously I can adjust the amount of send from each instrument to the global reverb, according to the sound that I require. This send can also be automated if I need more for certain passages. I also occasionally put a compressor on the reverb group channel.

By using this technique it feels similar to working with an orchestra recorded in a studio in the traditional way.

D


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## Hannes_F (Dec 2, 2007)

bluejay @ Sun Dec 02 said:


> Hi guys, after a couple of months of working with this problem, I'm still getting placement issues in Altiverb.



Same here. I love the sound of Altiverb but if used as an insert it will narrow the stereo spread. Using the stereo placement window for separating the loudspeaker symbols helps a bit but I think all this does technically is decreasing the crossover signal. Which helps a little but the stereo spread is still insufficient for the first orchestra row (1st violins and celli or 1st and 2nd violins). For those I returned to mix in portions of the direct signal.

I think the idea of running sound entirely through Altiverb and relying on the stereo placement feature is nice for smaller ensembles (but too wet often). For a widespread orchestra the IRs are simply not _fully _suited for the "run the sound of a group entirely through Altiverb" mode because the distance of the loudspeakers on the stage while recording the IRs was just too narrow. An orchestra is wider than the 6 - 8 meters or what they used. So there currently is no other choice than to return to the "add some reverb signal to the original sound via sends" approach IMO.

Thinking about it this would be a good topic for the Altiverb forum. Maybe one day they release IRs of big halls that are a little dryer and have a bigger stereo base than the current ones.

Actually I do not mean these IRs should be made dryer by software or something but by acoustically simulating an audience. Some concert halls have seats with absorption matched to sitting persons, alternatively blankets over the seats have been used for records. One or two IR sets especially for orchestra would be great.


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## Daryl (Dec 2, 2007)

With my method I have absolutely no problems with stereo placement.

D


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## Waywyn (Dec 2, 2007)

Just to mention that again, but when using several instances of AV, the color button could be a real pain in the ass.

When I first experimented with AV I found myself in hell, because my orchestra sounded like out of a can.

As soon as I turn off the color button, everything started to shine. However if you just use one instance of AV, the color button can be a nice in terms of the tone, but when using more instances in row it makes you puke 

Also please keep in mind that if you use send/returns, plus using color button and dry/wet, you layer several dry signals, so phasing and other weird stuff is programmed 

I know it might be a bit offtopic, but this could also cause a narrow-ish orchestra sound.


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## re-peat (Dec 2, 2007)

Stereowidth 'through' Altiverb changes drastically depending on the position of those speakers - I don't mean so much left-right positioning, but moving that pair of speakers closer or more backwards. As is perfectly logical, the closer you bring those speakers, the more separation you keep and the wider the image can be made (the TOTAL image that is, not the image of the reverb of course). The further they are backwards, the more everything 'moves to the center' (since the dry-wet balance gets wetter the further you go).

But even so, in their default position, the width sounds perfectly natural to me. I have no issues with Altiverb whatsoever, other than that certain IR's don't seem to be entirely properly balanced (there's a few where the right side seems to come out slightly stronger.)

Also: it obviously matters a lot what you send into Altiverb. Altiverb is not a stereo-widening plugin, it's just a (great) reverb. If you carefully pan BEFORE entering Altiverb - or if you use Altiverb in a mono>stereo setting (which I do rather a lot for solo instruments or small sections) - you will always be able to go as wide as is necessary.

_


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## bluejay (Dec 3, 2007)

Ok, so here's a slightly different question: -

If I don't use the placement feature, what would be the best way to simulate depth/distance.

Would I use more ER signal but shorter ERs? Would I add more reverb tail?

cheers


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## bluejay (Dec 3, 2007)

Oh, and Peter do your Samplicity IRs work in Altiverb? I'm always using them in Pristine Space.


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## Waywyn (Dec 3, 2007)

bluejay @ Mon Dec 03 said:


> Ok, so here's a slightly different question: -
> 
> If I don't use the placement feature, what would be the best way to simulate depth/distance.
> 
> ...



Hey, that's much easier. Just load different distance IRs 
For instance the Berlin Teldex scoring stage has several IRs of certain distances. I would suggest to simply load the 5m for strings, 7 meters for woods, etc. and only use the room placement tool for panning ... or just the sequencers pan or tools such as e.g. S1 of Waves

I think there is no perfect way to do this. It is all about experimenting, trial and error and to finally find a sound which was worth searching for


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## Waywyn (Dec 3, 2007)

Waywyn @ Mon Dec 03 said:


> I think there is no perfect way to do this. It is all about experimenting, trial and error and to finally find a sound which was worth searching for



Damn, I hate all those Jesus-ish "Life is good, just open your eyes and see" comments


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## bluejay (Dec 3, 2007)

Thanks Waywyn, I'm going to try that one tonight. I'm using S1 for panning anyway.


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