# Really confused by all the reverbs



## Justin L. Franks (Dec 25, 2020)

I've been reading through the reverb threads and I think I'm more confused now that I was before.

R4 is $29 right now (Pluginbotique).
The iZotope holiday bundle on Pluginboutique is $49 and you get R2 and PhoenixVerb with some other stuff.

What are the differences between R2 and R4? Is R4 a "newer" version of R2, or is it a completely different animal? And how does PhoenixVerb fit in here?

With Valhalla, there is Vintage Verb and Room to choose from. Vintage Verb is said to emulate older digital reverbs, with Room being more modern. But what does this actually mean for the sound?

All I want is something inexpensive which will help my libraries "meld" without too much fuss. My main libraries are all recorded in AIR Lyndhurst (SSO, SCS, etc.), but I do have a handful of "ancillary" libraries in drier spaces (Orchestral Swarm, Kepler, Heavyocity Intimate Textures, etc.).


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## dzilizzi (Dec 26, 2020)

You can never have too many reverbs. 

That said, you can probably get away with a few. The ones that come with your DAW can do most of it with the right settings. But if you have the money, I'd probably go with something like Seventh Heaven - you can sometimes get the non-pro version for $49 on sale. Or EW Spaces. A dry library will need some early reflections and then a similar room size preset to mix in. It can be really complicated to do it right, but mostly you just need kind of close and the majority of people won't notice.

I have R2/R4 and they can be very complicated to work with. Frankly, I think they may be more usable for sound design/correction than basic reverb. Which isn't a bad thing. Just maybe not what you want.

Edit: I'm not a pro. You may want to check out some of the posts on this subject by @Beat Kaufmann - he knows what he is talking about and writes some great posts on the subject of reverb.


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## el-bo (Dec 26, 2020)

Which DAW do you use?


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## Justin L. Franks (Dec 26, 2020)

Logic.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Dec 26, 2020)

Hi Justin
Your approach (about the money) may not be the right one. You need a tool that can perform the tasks associated with samples. Whether they sound vintage is less important and also not whether they are called R2, R4, B2 or how ever. Someone said above that you can never have enough reverb plug-ins. That's probably true if you buy tools by price, promotion or letters. So it happens that you end up with 20 plug-ins. All of them were cheap but together they cost more than one, two or three good ones.
My recommendation:
Download PlugIns and try them out, if they fulfill the given tasks. If such a plugin costs more than 15€, but does a really good job, I would save money until you can buy it. In connection with samples there are 2 main tasks:

Push instruments into the depth of the room - without much "tail".
Add reverb (tail) to solo instruments without them slipping into the depth of the room at the same time.
You can start with the plug-ins you already have. Maybe one of them can already handle these tasks. Just creating beautiful reverb tails is something that almost all reverb plug-ins can do today - even those in the DAW.
More info about Reverbs, Depths, Samples


Beat


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## mybadmemory (Dec 26, 2020)

A few thoughts. Very wet libraries (like air) doesn’t really need much reverb at all. They already have a large room sound and a long tail.

Medium wet libraries that have the stage sound but not really the hall sound usually only require an algorithmic reverb like Valhalla to give some extra tail.

Dry libraries that are recorded very close can usually benefit from using two reverbs. First an impulse based (like spaces) to get the stage/room, and then an algorithmic to get the tale.

I don’t think you need to complicate it that much. You’re probably fine with just one or maybe two to start with. Get a popular algo and perhaps a popular IR, or just use the ones in your DAW to start with.


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## N.Caffrey (Dec 26, 2020)

If I have seventh heaven and spaces do I need Pro R?


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## Crowe (Dec 26, 2020)

You don't need Pro R. or Seventh heaven. or Spaces. You certainly don't need all three.


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## AudioLoco (Dec 26, 2020)

N.Caffrey said:


> If I have seventh heaven and spaces do I need Pro R?


Pro R, while still being nice, is not as good as Seventh Heaven or R4 or VSS3 or Lexicon PCM (in my opinion) and is MUCH more expensive... (excluding the Lexicon)


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## N.Caffrey (Dec 26, 2020)

Right. Good to know, thank you!


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## N.Caffrey (Dec 26, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> You don't need Pro R. or Seventh heaven. or Spaces. You certainly don't need all three.


Very true.


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## Markrs (Dec 26, 2020)

I'm going to be honest, it becomes very easy to collect reverbs even though it can be quite hard to tell the difference between them in a full mix, rather than when one instrument is used.

Christian Henson, testing out reverbs:






He also gives you access to the reverb mixes so you can hear for yourself (this is helpful as the youtube compression doesn't help in hearing the differences) what the differences are. For me with my untrained ear, it was often quite hard to hear the difference


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## doctoremmet (Dec 26, 2020)

hbjdk said:


> I’d just get the $69 Seventh Heaven and perhaps EW Spaces II as well if I were you. Both of them come with presets and are very easy to use/adjust.


Agreed. First one I’d get is 7th Heaven Core edition. Super smooth, great for orchestral uses and easy to operate.

Vintage Verb versus Room: soundwise the first one has more “character”, meaning more warbly / chorus-y tails (modulations) versus the latter which is cleaner and more transparent sounding. The first one sounds a bit more like famous Lexicon devices of the eighties. It has a very familar reverb “sound” that many people may recognize and therefore “like”. At the end of the day, both of them are great and will suit you. A lot of the discussion is about taste. And a lot of “audible” differences are apparently not even audible to real pros. I trust you will have watched the YT video of Jake Jackson and Christian Henson doing the blindfolded reverb test?


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## doctoremmet (Dec 26, 2020)

Markrs said:


> I'm going to be honest, it becomes very easy to collect reverbs even though it can be quite hard to tell the difference between them in a full mix, rather than when one instrument is used.
> 
> Christian Henson, testing out reverbs:




Haha yes this one ^


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## el-bo (Dec 26, 2020)

Justin L. Franks said:


> Logic.



Have you found Logic's Chromaverb incapable of doing what you want?


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## Markrs (Dec 26, 2020)

Just to echo what @el-bo said, built-in reverbs can be very good and are worth a try. i think Christian included Chromaverb in his comparison and I think it did pretty well against paid competition.


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## merty (Dec 26, 2020)

N.Caffrey said:


> If I have seventh heaven and spaces do I need Pro R?



Convolution (seventh heaven); You go with the preset un-changed as much as possible. Every change "manipulates" an ir or its realism. If you tweak too much your mix will sound boxy or have a static/boring feel.

Algo (Pro R); Tweak as much as you like but the presets are mostly "inspired" from ir. Better for finding your own sound rather than trying to be authentic.


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## merty (Dec 26, 2020)

Markrs said:


> I'm going to be honest, it becomes very easy to collect reverbs even though it can be quite hard to tell the difference between them in a full mix, rather than when one instrument is used.
> 
> Christian Henson, testing out reverbs:
> 
> ...




(After 2 years of those video) Seems he's using fabfilter for his daily work these days;


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## el-bo (Dec 26, 2020)

Markrs said:


> Just to echo what @el-bo said, built-in reverbs can be very good and are worth a try. i think Christian included Chromaverb in his comparison and I think it did pretty well against paid competition.



At this point, I'd be surprised if there are any really bad reverbs.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Dec 26, 2020)

el-bo said:


> At this point, I'd be surprised if there are any really bad reverbs.


No, there are actually few reverbs that sound bad. But when working with samples, two things are important that only very few reverbs can do well. As I already mentioned above:


*1. push instruments into the depth of the room without much reverb tail at the same time* (placing woodwinds, brass, percussion, etc.). Example
*2. add reverb to instruments without at the same time pushing them further and further into the depth of the room* (solo instruments remain at the front despite reverb). Example
​Again, very few can do these two tasks well.
(Try these tasks with your favorite reverb...)

*Only then can such mixes be created...*​

Sure there is a 3rd task with samples, namely to glue everything together at the end with a nice "reverb-over-all" the whole mix. This job can do all the famous reverbs, which are shown above in the videos very nice. But as I said, this is just the finishing of the mix. So R4, R2, Valhalla, Seventh Heaven, R Pro & Co can mostly "only" do nice tails but unfortunately also only "the further away the sound, the more also tail".
Because few reverbs can do the two things mentioned above, so many people turn to VSS, MIR and Co. If they had reverbs that could do the two main tasks, conventional mixing would not be so difficult.
For a lot of money people buy a reverb that is highly praised by so-called experts (see videos above ...best reverbs, reverb worldcup,...). Then the same people must find out that they can't mix with it, because the high praised reverb is not able to do the first task: Push instruments into the depth of the room without much reverb tail. Then the users start to adjust the parameters, like predelay etc. and in the end nothing works anymore because everything is set wrong and effects even cancel each other out.

So there are many reverbs with nice reverb but only a few that are really suitable to have good tools at hand with samples...

All the best
Beat

*Addition:*
Why not use these two tasks as criteria for your next reverb plug-in purchase? At least one of the two tasks should be solved well by the next reverb plug-in.


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## Markrs (Dec 26, 2020)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> No, there are actually few reverbs that sound bad. But when working with samples, two things are important that only very few reverbs can do well. As I already mentioned above:
> 
> 
> *1. push instruments into the depth of the room without much reverb tail at the same time* (placing woodwinds, brass, percussion, etc.). Example


For the first type of reverb I wonder is DearVR Music or Pro would work well https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/products/dearvr_music.html as the Music version has gone quite cheap before.

Orchestral Mixing is something I need to explore at some point (still just starting composition so not really got anything to mix) so please to see you offer a course


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## Beat Kaufmann (Dec 26, 2020)

Markrs said:


> For the first type of reverb I wonder is DearVR Music or Pro would work well https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/products/dearvr_music.html as the Music version has gone quite cheap before.
> 
> Orchestral Mixing is something I need to explore at some point (still just starting composition so not really got anything to mix) so please to see you offer a course


Hi Markrs
"DearVR Music or Pro" are plug-ins which are made to produce "binaural audio", which in turn are intended for headphones only.
I would refrain from using such tools if the result is not explicitly intended for headphone users.

My example 1 I produced with a Convolution reverb where I suppressed the reverb tail... that's it. Of course a suitable IR pulse is important.

Beat

PS.
Here you can find music audio tracks that you can mix to try.


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## Markrs (Dec 26, 2020)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> "DearVR Music or Pro" are plug-ins which are made to produce "binaural audio", which in turn are intended for headphones only.
> I would refrain from using such tools if the result is not explicitly intended for headphone users.
> 
> My example 1 I produced with a Convolution reverb where I suppressed the reverb tail... that's it. Of course a suitable IR pulse is important.
> ...


Thank you, it is easy to get confused with these, which is why at some point in the future I am going to have to learning mixing.


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## markit (Dec 26, 2020)

@Beat Kaufmann After using a reverb of the first kind (such as MIR), how should one go about all the early/late reflection parameters available in plugins of the second kind (such as 7th Heaven)?

Moreover, isn’t a bit of a paradox to apply the tail reverb of a random room to another room used simply to place the instruments into a space?


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## el-bo (Dec 26, 2020)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> No, there are actually few reverbs that sound bad. But when working with samples, two things are important that only very few reverbs can do well. As I already mentioned above:
> 
> 
> *1. push instruments into the depth of the room without much reverb tail at the same time* (placing woodwinds, brass, percussion, etc.). Example
> ...



Thanks! I can see that there is a difference in the spatialisation for orchestras and most other genres. With other genres, there is no need to conform to a given prescription, nor any perception of a real space at all. However, with orchestral music there is a blueprint. The standard seating pattern is a known quantity, so there is an expectation. I can see how creating the sense of space, relatively between each section and then into the overall space would place different demands on both the mix engineer and their tools of choice.

Definitely something for me to consider as part of the learning process.



> *Addition:*
> Why not use these two tasks as criteria for your next reverb plug-in purchase? At least one of the two tasks should be solved well by the next reverb plug-in.



Haha! Wasn't actually intending to buy any more reverb plugins, but now i'm not so sure  Up to this point, I've not done any orchestral composing and so hadn't really considered these issues. But this week, I started my first orchestral piece using BBCSO Discover. I'm guessing that all the spatialisation stuff is taken care of within the Spitfire Player, because the template that they provide only has a couple of Sends (One to 'Chromaverb and one to Space Designer).

Will definitely make some time to read through your material on this matter, as I do have the intention of setting up a template that combines different libraries.

Do you have recommendations for reverbs (Preferably of the cheaper variety) that are up to the task? I will definitely try to apply the principles with what I have, but if they come up short it'd be good to know of some other options.

Thanks, again!


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## dzilizzi (Dec 26, 2020)

The first one is the hard one. The easiest way is to buy something like MIR which can get very expensive because the room packs are all separate and even on sale, it's still pricey. DearVR Pro might work. Another option might be Breeze plus Precedence which would cover both parts. https://www.2caudio.com/products/precedence#_Overview

And? If you aren't doing classical style music where each instrument needs to be in a specific place, you can probably get away with using 2 reverbs - the first with a short tail (a short delay may also work instead) and the second to make the room sound. Think of it as the difference between the sound waves that go to the back of the stage versus the sound waves that go out into the room. Experiment until it sounds right.


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## David Kudell (Dec 26, 2020)

Just get 7th heaven and get back to composing.


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## el-bo (Dec 26, 2020)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> "DearVR Music or Pro" are plug-ins which are made to produce "binaural audio", which in turn are intended for headphones only.



Actually, 'DearVr' can also be set to output to speakers. I specifically, bought it to use for headphone-only mixes, but it can definitely give interesting results in stereo. Whether it could accurately place multiple parts of an orchestra, I couldn't say


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## el-bo (Dec 26, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> Another option might be Breeze plus Precedence which would cover both parts. https://www.2caudio.com/products/precedence#_Overview



Hoping they'll soon have all their 'verbs communicating with Precedence


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## dzilizzi (Dec 26, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Thanks! I can see that there is a difference in the spatialisation for orchestras and most other genres. With other genres, there is no need to conform to a given prescription, nor any perception of a real space at all. However, with orchestral music there is a blueprint. The standard seating pattern is a known quantity, so there is an expectation. I can see how creating the sense of space, relatively between each section and then into the overall space would place different demands on both the mix engineer and their tools of choice.
> 
> Definitely something for me to consider as part of the learning process.
> 
> ...


BBCSO is recorded in situ and has the room sound baked in. If you use only BBCSO instruments, you may not need any added reverb. It was made to sound good as is.

If you add other instruments, then you will have to make them fit.


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## proggermusic (Dec 26, 2020)

Plenty of good insight for the OP already, but I'll throw in my $.02 since it's the internet...

Reverb takes a fair amount of time and skill to learn to dial in correctly, and any stock DAW reverb can sound very good if you take the time to learn how to get the most out of it. At the very least, Logic has some excellent verbs that come stock with the program. Even the aging "SilverVerb" and the like can sound very good. The new ChromaVerb can be really excellent indeed.

If I were to stick with one reverb plug to use forever, though, it would definitely be Valhalla VintageVerb. It makes an appearance in every project I produce. It's extremely versatile, it sounds great, and I've always been able to make it do what I need it to do in relatively little time.


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 26, 2020)

David Kudell said:


> Just get 7th heaven and get back to composing.


There's better, but that'll do if nothing else  
But the point of not worrying too much about it is probably a good one.
Also, what's wrong with using the classic combo of panning + EQ + reverb to place things?


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## el-bo (Dec 26, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> BBCSO is recorded in situ and has the room sound baked in. If you use only BBCSO instruments, you may not need any added reverb. It was made to sound good as is.
> 
> If you add other instruments, then you will have to make them fit.



Yeah, I thought that would be the case. But still the Logic template comes with two sends, in place (At least that's how it is in the Discover template).

But your second point definitely speaks to what the op is trying to do.


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## el-bo (Dec 26, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Also, what's wrong with using the classic combo of panning + EQ + reverb to place things?



Yup! Also curious to know how this so-exists or is superseded by a verb-only approach.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 26, 2020)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> "DearVR Music or Pro" are plug-ins which are made to produce "binaural audio", which in turn are intended for headphones only.


Beat, while that's the intended main use, DearVR Pro does indeed have different algorithms for different output formats, also one for stereo speakers.

While in about 90% Precedence is my spatialisation tool of choice (for stereo productions) i also have few cases where DearVR Pro works much better. [And then, in some cases (often mono recorded guitars) Schoeps Mono Upmix works best].

But besides that, i fully agree with your comment!


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## David Kudell (Dec 26, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> There's better, but that'll do if nothing else
> But the point of not worrying too much about it is probably a good one.


Nobody has ever pitched for a movie and heard back, “we love your music but we’re going with the person who had the better reverb plug-in.”


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## re-peat (Dec 26, 2020)

Reading through the latest batch of reverb-related threads, it seems to me that a lack of knowledge and confidence when applying reverb (and using the tools with which to apply it), is a far greater problem than any (perceived) lack of quality in the tools that are available to us today. As was said earlier: most of the reverb software these days, and certainly the names that pop up most frequently in threads such as these, are more than up to the job for any task we might expect or need from them.

There’s also a lot of nonsense that stubbornly keeps going around when it comes to reverb and spatialization. For example, that you need a convolution reverb for the ER’s and an algorithmic one for the tails. That’s just not true. Or that good reverb and spatial differentiation in a mix requires a complex system of buses and intricate routings and such. Not true either. If you know what you’re doing, you’ll find that the simplest solution — one well-chosen reverb, insightfully adjusted for the specific task at hand — is often the best. Not always, but often enough to not dismiss it.

Also, while YouTube is a great resource for useful information, it’s an even greater source of misguiding and useless pseudo-expertise from pseudo-gurus or self-appointed pied pipers, causing a lot of confusion and stifling bewilderment among people who are still in the process of learning the fundamentals. Don’t believe everything you hear and see on YouTube, not even when it is said by supposedly knowledgeable people. And don’t think that simply because Famous Person X uses Reverb X, you will instantly see an improvement in your mixes if only you use Reverb X as well. It doesn’t work like that.

You don’t have to believe me either, of course. 
Still, I’ve started so I’ll finish.

Adding reverb to a mix is easy. Or at least, _it should be_. If it isn’t, there’s something else wrong with the mix. No exceptions. One of *the* best litmus tests for checking a mix, is adding reverb to it: if it proves a difficult job, if good sound remains out of reach and if you seem to be getting nowhere no matter what you try, there’s something else wrong with the mix. Seriously. Works every time, no matter the style or type of music.

A good reverb also works very well as a sort of magnifier glass on the qualities and flaws of your sound since both get mirrored in the tail. This phenomenon can be quite frustrating in its absolute objective mercilessness if you happen to have the misfortune of working with problematic source sounds. But it’s a curse that can also be turned into a blessing, because sometimes you find that (adding) a reverb will, unexpectedly, highlight a problem that escaped you earlier on during the mix: some obtrusive frequency or other, a timbre that’s just not right, a build-up somewhere in the frequency spectrum that you somehow overlooked to address … Well worth, I find, to learn to take advantage of this rarely discussed ‘diagnostic use’ of (good) reverb.

If you’ve got well-programmed, nicely balanced and skillfully sculpted tracks to start mixing with however, adding reverb to them will be an easy, pleasant and hugely enjoyable job. Honestly. You simply add some to taste and, importantly, in complete sympathy with the music you’re working on, and you’re done. Nothing complicated about it and your good mix will sound even better. That’s why adding reverb to a good mix — with good source sounds — is so enjoyable. (Again because reverb highlights the qualities as generously as it ruthlessly will expose the flaws.)

When, on the other hand, you keep finding that things don’t gel, that your virtual space lacks coherence, that the mix is weighed down by plenty of mud and booming, or that you end up with an unpleasant boxy sound, there can only be two causes: (1) either these problems were already present in your mix before reverb got added or (2) you have no sufficient understanding of what reverb is, how it works, in what way it differs from spatialization, and/or how artificial reverberation should be woven into the fabric of a mix.

Both eventualities — and there really are no short-cuts here, I’m afraid — require a fair amount of preparatory study and plenty of excercise to prevent them ruining your music-making and mixing pleasure. But I’m convinced that countless reverb-related threads would never have been started if only people would take enough time to really get to know — thoroughly — their reverb software and all of its parameters, train their ears, as well as improve their understanding of what exactly occurs when sound is generated at a specific location in a specific space, how early reflections work, how space is defined, how distance is suggested, when reverb is NOT needed, etc. … If you’re unsure about any of this and you’re simply fiddling about a bit with various knobs and sliders or are slavishly following the dicta of some big shot on YouTube without understanding why, you’ll never get anywhere.

And again, by improving your arranging/orchestrating, programming and producing skills, you will discover — guaranteed — that numerous problems which you previously thought were reverb-related have nothing whatsoever to do with reverb at all. If, for example, you end up with a boomy, congested sound after adding reverb, 99,99% of the time it’s because you sent boomy, congested sound into the reverb. Meaning: the reverb is not the cause of the mess, no, the problem is already present, and should be addressed, before the reverb stage.

A final word to the opening poster: a Logic user working with the libraries you listed, doesn’t need to buy any additional reverb. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. Everything you need (and much more) is already available to you, and it’s of the finest quality. (If Logic’s reverbs, and many of its other plugins, were sold separately by various developers of distinction or high repute, they would, I’m sure of it, occupy the top spots in many people’s lists of most highly-valued tools.)

_


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 26, 2020)

Great post.

To your point, I believe, if a reverb doesn't have an EQ built in, then definitely use an EQ before (and even after) the reverb. This, alone, can make a "cheap" or "built-in" reverb sound great. This is also easiest to do when the reverb is a send effect rather than an insert.

Get fancy, and try a compressor after a reverb Send to lift the tail. Probably not for orchestral, but you can add saturation and distortion after a reverb, as well.


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## Dr.Quest (Dec 26, 2020)

Almost any reverb has a trial version. Some as generous as 30 days. R4 sounds really good and I bought it for $29. PhoenixVerb also is also good for $9.95. Many of the stereo versions are cheaper now that companies seem to be pushing their surround versions. R4 and a good Convolution reverb would have you pretty well covered but try them out. There is no reason not to if they have a trial. What works for me may not work for you.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 26, 2020)

markit said:


> Moreover, isn’t a bit of a paradox to apply the tail reverb of a random room to another room used simply to place the instruments into a space?



People usually forget that perception is some kind of extremely complex "re-synthesis" done by the brain/consciousness. How the brain decodes information doesn't simply follow simple theoretical concepts but depends on a large amount of different factors.
And then there is another thing: the brain tries to create a perception that makes sense.
So even if somebody has super hearing and some bats in his ancestry, it's possible for him to get the impression that two instruments with slightly different reverbs are in the same room, except when there are clear indicators that oppose this impression.

Here's an example with optical illusions, that highlights how easily the brain can get fooled:


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## JohnG (Dec 26, 2020)

David Kudell said:


> Just get 7th heaven and get back to composing.


I think David's idea is basically the best. Buy something decent (or use what you have -- does not have to be expensive or 7th Heaven or anything in particular) and get back to composing.

*Don't 'Verb Everything*

One tip is to pay attention to filtering what goes to the reverb. Many/most reverbs have this feature built in so you may not have to do anything beyond choose your favourite preset, but just to be aware of it, you don't want to send all the frequency range to the reverb. If you send super low or super high range information, you end up reverb-ing what sounds to the listener like rumble or an annoying ringing.

Consequently, most reverbs have:

1. A high pass filter (often called a Low Cut or Lo Cut on the menu) such that nothing below, say 60Hz goes to reverb. They also have

2. A low pass filter (often called a HiCut or High Cut) that is surprisingly low in the hearing spectrum, sometimes as low as 2.5KHz, though it can range up to 4.5KHz or even higher.

So in the example above, in theory only sound ranging from 60 Hz to 2.5KHz actually goes into the reverb, thus reducing mud and such.

But you really don't have to even know that. Just pick a preset, dial in what sounds nice to you in the sends from your mixer, and write.


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## bill5 (Dec 26, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> You can never have too many reverbs.


Of course you can and most of us probably do, me included. OP do yourself a favor and don't chase the trendy, flashy reverbs. Try what you have and even some of the freebies (such as Voxengo's Old Skool and Valhalla's Supermassive) which are quite good. The diff in reverbs, like the diff in most things audio, is typically highly exaggerated.


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## dzilizzi (Dec 26, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Of course you can and most of us probably do, me included. OP do yourself a favor and don't chase the trendy, flashy reverbs. Try what you have and even some of the freebies (such as Voxengo's Old Skool and Valhalla's Supermassive) which are quite good. The diff in reverbs, like the diff in most things audio, is typically highly exaggerated.


It's a joke. I do have too many reverbs. That said, most of the ones I use are more sound effects than basic reverb. I wrote a whole song just using Blackhole. 

I think what a lot of these posts are missing is the problem of trying to match different rooms which was the OP's original question. Matching a dry to a wet is one thing. You will definitely need the two reverbs or delay/reverb to place and match, unless you get a spatialization reverb. But matching 2 wet libraries with different sized rooms may just need an added tail on the smaller room one. 

And David is right.  Most of the time, close enough is good.


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## el-bo (Dec 26, 2020)

Can't speak for the op, but I'm way more confused about reverbs than I was before


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## markit (Dec 26, 2020)

@el-bo Same. Haha


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## SergeD (Dec 26, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Can't speak for the op, but I'm way more confused about reverbs than I was before



re-peat
"If you’ve got well-programmed, nicely balanced and skillfully sculpted tracks to start mixing with however, adding reverb to them will be an easy, pleasant and hugely enjoyable job."

then 

JohnG
"Just pick a preset, dial in what sounds nice to you in the sends from your mixer, and write."


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## NoamL (Dec 26, 2020)

When you hear a great film score with full orchestra you are hearing two reverbs which are challenging to disentangle in your mind.

1. The "reverb" of a big room such as AIR, Abbey Road, FOX, or SONY, where they recorded with outrigger, height and surround mics to capture all the dimensions of the sound in addition to the classic Decca tree.

2. The reverb the score mixer adds to the recordings to fill up the theatrical speakers, making the sound more immersive & larger than life.

Spitfire & CineSamples are useful in this regard, you can take real samples recorded in SONY, AIR or Abbey Road, and figure out the steps to sound-match your libraries recorded in other locations.

That is what it's really all about. The second kind of reverb is often subtle, and program dependent (shorter verbs for action cues etc).


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## el-bo (Dec 26, 2020)

SergeD said:


> re-peat
> "If you’ve got well-programmed, nicely balanced and skillfully sculpted tracks to start mixing with however, adding reverb to them will be an easy, pleasant and hugely enjoyable job."
> 
> then
> ...



I've read these posts, already. All you're doing is backing one point-of-view i.e If it sounds good, then it's good, or that one must just make sure to skilful in arranging their tracks for reverb to become a doddle. Nothing wrong with that line of thinking - I use it with regard to my own music. But neither of those posters, nor you, seem to be making a case against Beat's recommendations concerning convincing presentation of a full orchestra, laid out in front of an audience in a concert hall. 

As is often the case, it's likely that the solution is a combination of all of these things. But advice to just buy xxx plugin, or just add xxx preset may be intended to relieve confusion, but it just makes things more confusing. Are we to just accept that it's a fool's errand because there's no accounting for how our brains interpret all this information, or is there really a blueprint for using a handful of appropriate tools that, if used correctly, will lead to success...every time?


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## David Kudell (Dec 26, 2020)

The original post said: "All I want is something inexpensive which will help my libraries "meld" without too much fuss."

What I have found to work for me is the $60 Seventh Heaven. But really any other decent reverb is fine. I just liked Seventh Heaven because I didn't like the way R4 sounded on percussion (too much slap echo, probably the preset I was using, but 7H is easier to use).

I don't put reverb on 70% of my tracks, only on stuff that is dry. So basically I'm just helping the dry stuff blend in with the wet stuff.

If something is super-duper dry, I'll add a reverb just to that track that puts it into a recording studio-sounding space. Then that gets sent to the Seventh Heaven bus.

I have 16 Seventh Heaven FX tracks in Cubase, one for each stem (ie, Strings, Brass, Perc, etc). This way each stem gets rendered out with reverb on it.

Most of the composers I've chatted with say the issue of "blending" libraries seems to be something overly fretted about. My tracks are a mix of OT, Spitfire, Cinematic Series, ProjectSAM, Heavocity, Stretzov, and more and it really isn't an issue. I mean, I'm more worried about writing a good melody than I am about reverb algorithms.


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## jcrosby (Dec 26, 2020)

markit said:


> Moreover, isn’t a bit of a paradox to apply the tail reverb of a random room to another room used simply to place the instruments into a space?


Reverb not only helps gel things together spatially, it often has a 'gluing' effect similar to the way a bus compressor helps _glue_ a mix together. A little reverb not only can help things feel more like their in the same or a similar space, it also creates a sense of cohesiveness... This is why many engineers send a very small amount of a whole mix to a common reverb tucked way back in the mix.


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## jbuhler (Dec 26, 2020)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> Hi Markrs
> "DearVR Music or Pro" are plug-ins which are made to produce "binaural audio", which in turn are intended for headphones only.
> I would refrain from using such tools if the result is not explicitly intended for headphone users.
> 
> ...


Does your mixing class cover this, moving the instrument in depth without adding tail, not moving the depth while increasing the tail?


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## SergeD (Dec 26, 2020)

el-bo said:


> I've read these posts, already. All you're doing is backing one point-of-view i.e If it sounds good, then it's good, or that one must just make sure to skilful in arranging their tracks for reverb to become a doddle.



You're right, sorry, and I understand your feeling. My own recipe is very trivial, CC7 to adjust volumes, and CC11 to modulate attack, release and even tamper reverb tails in an orchestral library. Once everything seems balanced, I test some reverbs, if something is wrong, I move back using again CC7 or CC11 controls. 

So, in my understanding, posts saying "don't build an house without having a solid footing" and "let's your ears decide if the footing is solid or not" make a lot of sense and are golden rules.


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## bill5 (Dec 26, 2020)

And, one would hope, stating the obvious.


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## Trash Panda (Dec 26, 2020)

Justin L. Franks said:


> I've been reading through the reverb threads and I think I'm more confused now that I was before.
> 
> R4 is $29 right now (Pluginbotique).
> The iZotope holiday bundle on Pluginboutique is $49 and you get R2 and PhoenixVerb with some other stuff.
> ...


Neoverb by Izotope uses the algorithms from the Exponential Audio reverbs like the ones you’re looking at and has a pretty good AI assistant to get you started until you’re more comfortable with adjusting it yourself. The GUI is very intuitive for finding the right mix of reverb styles (room, hall, plate, etc) with built in EQs. It can usually be had for $99 when on sale and will likely get cheaper throughout 2021 since it was new this year.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Dec 26, 2020)

Hello Beginner
This thread shows it:
As soon as it comes to reverb, there are always many who know how to do it. There are those who say it is nonsense to have to use convolution reverbs, freeware, cheap reverbs or the reverbs of the DAW are enough. Then there are those who swear by one product above all others. Then there are those who refer to videos where some awardwinner judges plugins and put them in order.... Reverb X is the best. Many claims also contradict each other.
No wonder someone said: reading all the answers here, I am now totally confused.

To such texts there is a simple solution:
Thread authors who claim anything, but can't back up their claim with (music-) examples, I would pay little to no attention to.
So the number of helpful threads is quickly reduced.
Logical though - there are always different approaches - so not just *THE* one way.
--------------------------------------------

I took this thread as an opportunity to produce a video that on the one hand presents a good reverb plugin and on the other hand shows a few mixing steps in connection with the use of reverb. A short music example shows how a mix with reverb could be created. As a basis serves the plan of a virtual stage with instruments, which I try to reproduce in the mix.
By the way: The goal is to achieve a nice mixing transparency by slightly exaggerating the different room depths.

But at the same time, I would like to go ahead with the example that I expect from others as well and as mentioned above: prove with examples what you claim here with words.

Enjoy the video
It is in German, but contains subtitles in English




Finally back to the original thread
Justin wants an inexpensive reverb which helps to make good orchestral mixes. The video perhaps points out again what I already said above:

A) It is not important that a reverb tool is cheap or called R4, but that it can do the necessary tasks when dealing with samples. Maybe it's worth it to buy a good tool instead of a cheap one(s).

B) Then I would like to mention again that for a good mix not only the tools are important, but also the knowledge how to use them properly. By the way, this is also true when using MIR & Co. ...because those tools are often highly complex and have hundreds of parameters that can be set (incorrectly).

All the best
Beat


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## JonS (Dec 26, 2020)

Justin L. Franks said:


> I've been reading through the reverb threads and I think I'm more confused now that I was before.
> 
> R4 is $29 right now (Pluginbotique).
> The iZotope holiday bundle on Pluginboutique is $49 and you get R2 and PhoenixVerb with some other stuff.
> ...


All the Exponential Audio reverbs are excellent, you can’t go wrong owning any or all of them as they are all excellent. I own R2 and R4 as well as PhoenixVerb and Nimbus.


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## Hendrixon (Dec 26, 2020)

Justin L. Franks said:


> I've been reading through the reverb threads and I think I'm more confused now that I was before.



In that case there is no need to feel frustrated, you see, most ppl have no clue how and when to use reverberation, and most of those who think they do? well... they think
How many guitar players build their own guitars? not many. it needs knowledge of special woodworking skills, precision engineering, electromagnetic etc etc..
Yet every mo and shmo use reverbs to mangle their recordings room acoustics with not even some basic understanding of the subject.

You want to play guitars? you learn to play guitars.
You want to manipulate acoustics? there are no shortcuts.



> What are the differences between R2 and R4? Is R4 a "newer" version of R2, or is it a completely different animal? And how does PhoenixVerb fit in here?



The creator of those plugs is a very respected individual with knowledge and experience in reverberation that not many can claim (he is now retired from the biz and actually registered as a member in VI-C). on the other hand his way of offering his software products was weird, which seemed more geared towards how to squeeze the most financial gain from any increment of a plug

R2 -> R4 -> symphony
PhoenixVerb -> Nimbus - Stratus

The first product/line is his take on the Lexicon modulated reverbs (he is an ex-Lexicon engineer), though his take is more subtle then the old boxes, as he never loved (his personal taste) those "artificially" chorused modulated algos.
The second product/line is his take on the clear unobtrusive reverbs, like what you associate with TC verbs (the real ones, not the guitar pedals).



> With Valhalla, there is Vintage Verb and Room to choose from. Vintage Verb is said to emulate older digital reverbs, with Room being more modern. But what does this actually mean for the sound?



VVV is a creation of a developer that simply loves the old Lexicons.
I never used the Room one, its his take on the TC thing.
Starting to see a pattern here?



> All I want is something inexpensive which will help my libraries "meld" without too much fuss.



No such thing, not even expensive ones.
If you don't know what to do, not even a real M7/TC6000/PCM96/Yardstick will do that for you.



> My main libraries are all recorded in AIR Lyndhurst (SSO, SCS, etc.)



The last thing you need with those is reverb
You can even treat them AS reverbs. if you have a dry string library, simply layer it with the Gallery or Ambient mics and voila you get the AIR Lyndhurst sound in your non Spitfire dry lib.
No reverb in the world will do a better job.



> but I do have a handful of "ancillary" libraries in drier spaces (Orchestral Swarm, Kepler, Heavyocity Intimate Textures, etc.).



For those? they are mostly Spitfire... how dry are they?
Anyway, few tips:
1. Use the roomiest mic you have, isolate it on its own track, compress the life out of it and blend it back.
2. Use a clean reverb on just the roomiest mic you have, this sort of extend the natural room sound.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Dec 26, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> Beat, while that's the intended main use, DearVR Pro does indeed have different algorithms for different output formats, also one for stereo speakers.


Hi Living Fossil
I know these tools from DearVR Pro very well, and also own both. In my tutorial I wrote a chapter about mixing with binaural technique. Yes, you can set the tools to output the signals "normally" for speakers. But then the two tools are not special anymore, because they need a complicated application for stereo files...
By the way, I made a video in connection with my tutorial why binaural audio is not suitable for conventional speaker playback:


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## Living Fossil (Dec 26, 2020)

Hi @Beat Kaufmann , thanks for your answer. I'm aware of these issues and i also have to mention that i bought DearVR Pro originally specifically for some rare binaural projects (i.e. AR and VR and 360º films).
Nevertheless, the reason why i sometimes use it for "normal" projects is that if i like the results (on speakers) better than the results i get with other tools i simply keep it - it's as pragmatic as it is. (btw. i'm speaking of quite basic positioning; no fancy movements and no "behind the head" stuff which indeed is a completely other story). But as mentioned, my usual tool of choice is precedence.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Dec 26, 2020)

Markrs said:


> For the first type of reverb I wonder is DearVR Music or Pro would work well https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/products/dearvr_music.html as the Music version has gone quite cheap before.
> 
> Orchestral Mixing is something I need to explore at some point (still just starting composition so not really got anything to mix) so please to see you offer a course



I got DearVR Pro for $29.99 the first time Plugin Alliance did their "any plugin for $29.99" sale, though subsequent versions of that sale have excluded it. Their current sale has DearVR Music at $29.99 and DearVR Pro at $69.99, but you can apply a voucher to get $20 off, code MEGA-SALE-20OFF

I've been considering getting R2/R4 or Neoverb. R4 has significantly less muddy build-up than Valhalla Vintage Verb and many others. Combining that quality of R4 with Neoverb's AI EQ can make minimizing muddiness much easier. I'm leaning towards waiting for Neoverb to come down in price; I already have Adaptiverb which does a great job of minimizing mud, but it would be convenient to have an option which uses less cpu.


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## José Herring (Dec 26, 2020)

Justin L. Franks said:


> I've been reading through the reverb threads and I think I'm more confused now that I was before.
> 
> R4 is $29 right now (Pluginbotique).
> The iZotope holiday bundle on Pluginboutique is $49 and you get R2 and PhoenixVerb with some other stuff.
> ...


I haven't read through any of the post. I can't answer most of your questions. Why am I posting you ask? I got R4 and it's hands down one of the best reverbs I've ever heard. It does its job and doesn't get in the way.


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## AudioLoco (Dec 27, 2020)

It's crazy you can get R4, a turbo, quasi Lexicon 480L for friggin' 29$....

I don't see why anyone should compromise with the DAW reverbs or free reverbs....
Between the 7th Heaven, VSS3 and the Exponential stuff we live in great times for ITB reverbs!


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## GtrString (Dec 27, 2020)

It simple, you just have to like it. Done.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Dec 27, 2020)

markit said:


> Moreover, isn’t a bit of a paradox to apply the tail reverb of a random room to another room used simply to place the instruments into a space?



The reverb tail is a chaotic mixture of everything from a room, it is uncalculatable.
The only thing that matters is it does sound good (for you) and that it is sufficiently controllable to get out of the way of the music - that's why there is the advice to use algo reverb for the tail, because it is easier to get the control over it using an algorithm (has been, now there are many convo reverbs which have a very configurable tail).


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## Hendrixon (Dec 27, 2020)

Convo verbs are static and boring the higher the RT (reverb time) of the impulse.
On the other hand their density can suits the stage of early reflections.
That's why some users (not all) like to use convo for ER but prefer a nice/musical algo for tail.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Dec 27, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> Convo verbs are static and boring the higher the RT (reverb time) of the impulse.


Except that isn't true any more (as I wrote), nowadays with some convo reverbs you can modulate the tail the same way as with algo reverbs. E.g. SIR 3 has some nice modulation possibilities, it's 'Random Modulation & Delay' is more or less an algo reverb.


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## el-bo (Dec 27, 2020)

David Kudell said:


> The original post said: "All I want is something inexpensive which will help my libraries "meld" without too much fuss."
> 
> What I have found to work for me is the $60 Seventh Heaven. But really any other decent reverb is fine. I just liked Seventh Heaven because I didn't like the way R4 sounded on percussion (too much slap echo, probably the preset I was using, but 7H is easier to use).
> 
> ...



Not sure why 'worrying' about quality of melody and reverb algorithms should be mutually exclusive 

The "All I want..." quote really doesn't tell the whole story, though. There is a difference between mixing completely different orchestral libraries and mixing any different library. In the case of orchestral libraries, the assumption is that in each case the sections are recorded in situ. So, taking brass from on library, strings from another etc. etc. shouldn't really cause much conflict, and as everyone, only need a bit of massaging and manipulation to give the impression that the libraries are in all playing from the same stage. However, the op mentioned Heavyocity's 'Intimate textures', which are not only drier but recorded in a completely different pattern than an orchestra. Of course, the op, you, me and whoever else, might be fine with placing IT as a whole, within the same space and call it a day. No problem with that. I'm all for "If it sounds good..."

But what if you want to add some instruments, recorded from elsewhere (And in non-orchestral seating patterns) to a more traditionally-seated orchestra? How would you position a violin or a double-bass, that had been recorded in a studio straight and straight down the middle of the stereo-field, into their appropriate orchestral section? How do you make them sound like they were recorded in those spaces? This is the point that I think (and I could be wrong) that Beat is making i.e that not all reverbs are going to allow that kind of depth and positioning control.

Not saying there are any rules as to what every artist should be aiming for, or that simple 'wet' blending/glueing isn't all that would be necessary in most cases. But there are going to be situations where a simple set-and-forget preset choice might not be enough...even if the preset does come from 'Seventh Heaven'  :


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## el-bo (Dec 27, 2020)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> I took this thread as an opportunity to produce a video that on the one hand presents a good reverb plugin and on the other hand shows a few mixing steps in connection with the use of reverb.



Thanks! Look forward to checking it out


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## Hendrixon (Dec 27, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Except that isn't true any more (as I wrote), nowadays with some convo reverbs you can modulate the tail the same way as with algo reverbs. E.g. SIR 3 has some nice modulation possibilities, it's 'Random Modulation & Delay' is more or less an algo reverb.



An impulse response is nothing more then a capture of a filter.
If the ir is short, say bellow 30-40ms, your brain will interpret the convoled outcome as a static EQ.
If the ir is around 50 to say 150ms, you will perceive it as ER and your brain will build a mental image of the *space* that the sound was recorded in.
Above that, you will say its a reverb.

Btw, what Beat did in the video, truncating the ir length? if he kept doing it some more he would've ended up with an EQ. in essence an EQ capture of the room.

There is no data in the ir regarding phase, compression, modulation/pitch... that's why the longer the ir, the more static it sounds.

Regarding modulation, what most convo plugs - and many algo plugs - do is simply add modulation going in or out of the reverberate stage. this could make a boring reverb (algo or convo) sound more interesting. this trick has been done since the dawn of digital reverbs.

But this doesn't create the "modulated reverb" Lexicon made famous. when you modulate the input signal or the reverb output, you modulate the whole reflections in unison (or even double it with chorus). what Lexicon did was modulate the different delay lines inside the reverberation engine, and that what gave them this swirly evolving 3D sound we find pleasing.
This is NOT how reverb sounds in nature, but this is a nice sound non the less.

Since convo plugins don't have access or any perception of discrete delay steams, I don't see how they can modulate their reverb in the way algo verbs can. the few I heard sounded fake/weird, which to me it means they simply added external modulation.


Btw, the whole modulated reverb thing was born out of the need to eliminate the metallic sound in the tail of early static digital reverbs. it was found that modulating the delay lines eliminates the metallic nasty tail in static reverbs. later on, algos improved, processing power increased, and you could make a reverb without a metallic tail that didn't give this "fake" swirly modulated sound.

But it turns out we humans prefer nice fake over boring real... and apparently not just in audio


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## Justin L. Franks (Dec 27, 2020)

Thanks so much everyone for all of the info and advice. It seems that preferences regard reverbs are _incredibly_ specific to the individual, but also that any decent one will work just fine most, if not nearly all, of the time.

To that end, I picked up R4 for $29. At that low of a price, it doesn't really matter if I don't get along with it.

I will get to know R4, along with getting to better know the stock Logic reverbs, and EW Spaces II. That one I actually forgot I even had as part of the Composer Cloud X subscription – I just never got around to installing it because I hadn't really thought about reverbs until very recently.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 27, 2020)

Justin L. Franks said:


> To that end, I picked up R4 for $29. At that low of a price, it doesn't really matter if I don't get along with it.



That's a great choice. It's a fanastic reverb, well worth its original prize.
However: Make sure to get familiar with its controls.
You can tweak and control tons of parameters.
If a preset is "too chorussy" -> you can reduce/disable/change the modulation in its menu
if a preset is "too clean" -> go to the warp menu
If you like a concert hall preset, but you want a smaller venue -> Adjust the room size
etc.
By learning how to tweak a reverb you can multiply its value.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Dec 27, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> Since convo plugins don't have access or any perception of discrete delay steams, I don't see how they can modulate their reverb in the way algo verbs can.



What they do is (more or less) adding a (more or less) simple algo reverb to their tail, with some sort of AM or FM modulation (chorus/phaser/flanger/tremolo like the algo reverbs do).
E.g. for SIR 3, you can add up to 4 stages of delay, AM and FM modulation: https://www.siraudiotools.com/SIR3-Manual.php#Modulation-Type:-Random-Modulation-&-Delay


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## Hendrixon (Dec 27, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> What they do is (more or less) adding a (more or less) simple algo reverb to their tail, with some sort of AM or FM modulation (chorus/phaser/flanger/tremolo like the algo reverbs do).
> E.g. for SIR 3, you can add up to 4 stages of delay, AM and FM modulation: https://www.siraudiotools.com/SIR3-Manual.php#Modulation-Type:-Random-Modulation-&-Delay



Well, no new breakthrough in reverb land, they do it exactly as I explained

_Pre/Post
Choose "Pre" if you want the modulation to happen before the convolution stage. Choose "Post" if you want the modulation to take place after the convolution._

It could still sound nice, but its a different animal.
Check this, I have several old Lexicon boxes:

MPX-G2 (a more powerful MPX-1)
PCM 70
PCM 80
PCM 91
300M

The MPX-1 was my first Lexicon box, and its the only one without any modulated reverb algorithm.
Still, its reverb is lovely and thick and rich. it's reverb algo is derived from one of the PCM-80 algos, but scaled down. On the other hand it excels in super high quality effects, among them many beautiful modulation effects that them selves can have parameters that are randomly modulated. its sick

Its design has a dedicated Lexichip (hardware) for reverb, and a Motorola DSP for the rest of the effects. depending on how processing heavy the effects are, the DSP can support between 3 and 6 effect blocks in the same time (while still doing reverb thanks to the Lexichip).

I used that for a long time in my guitar rig, having an effect block with modulation before the reverb and another after the reverb. for me that was the best reverb sound I ever had.
Back then PCMs were still very expensive, and I honestly thought they can't sound much better then my G2. I had some experience with the 480 and 200, and yes those are something else.
Years past, the internet became a thing (lol), I met a guy called Italo De Angelis. no one special, just someone that in his day job in a little unknown company (Eventide) was responsible for creating the H8000

Yadda yadda he convinced me to get a PCM-80, and since prices became more humanly accessible, I bought one. when I got it home, I pulled the G2 from the rack and inserted the 80. sadly had no time to play (went abroad for a work thing for 2 weeks). when I came back, I played my guitars, it sounded great, as good as my well programmed G2... or so I remembered.
I told Italo that the 80 was nice, but I'm not blown away. to that his replay was "you idiot, did you compare them?" lol

So I did... almost needed a jaw replacement surgery after that
The depth of field, the way the reverb engulfed my guitar sound was something I never experienced other then in a studio with the 480 and 200.

Anyway, I think I lost track on what was the discussion LOL
Sorry, I love reverbs


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## ReleaseCandidate (Dec 27, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> Well, no new breakthrough in reverb land, they do it exactly as I explained



Actually no, or I didn't understand what you said. And of course no breakthrough.



Hendrixon said:


> _Pre/Post
> Choose "Pre" if you want the modulation to happen before the convolution stage. Choose "Post" if you want the modulation to take place after the convolution._
> 
> It could still sound nice, but its a different animal.


Well, yes, of course. But I'm talking about the capabilities to shape the tail like in an algo reverb, not that they sound like a Lexicon. If you want a Lexicon tail, use Lexicon or EA. But you do not need to use an algo reverb for the tail to be able to customize it like you can with (some) algo reverbs.



Hendrixon said:


> The MPX-1 was my first Lexicon box, and its the only one without any modulated reverb algorithm.



Mine too. Still have it, I guess.



Hendrixon said:


> Still, its reverb is lovely and thick and rich. it's reverb algo is derived from one of the PCM-80 algos, but scaled down. On the other hand it excels in super high quality effects, among them many beautiful modulation effects that them selves can have parameters that are randomly modulated. its sick


Sorry, I never have and never will understand the praise for the MPX 1 reverbs. But I only ever used it for my guitars 



Hendrixon said:


> Sorry, I love reverbs


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## Andrew Souter (Dec 27, 2020)

Try this:









https://2caudio.com/sitecontent/products/pbj/community/2CAudio_PrecedenceBreezeBreeze.png




1) Insert Precedence and Breeze directly on (a) track(s).
a) Insert them POST FADER
b) Join Group 1 for both. Enable Link in Breeze
c) Try the settings shown for both

2) Add an FX Channel, and add another Breeze (or B2, or Aether)
a) Send PRE FADER to the FX track at 0dB.
b) Set track gain of the FX channel to around -18dB
c) try the settings shown if using Breeze, using 100% wet


Theory/concept:

1) Precedence is handling spatialization

2) Breeze on the insert following Precedence is handling "early energy". Note decay time is only 0.8sec, there will not be much sense of tail created by this.

3) Breeze is linked to Precedence, and moving the "Position Node" in Precedence will update BOTH Precedence AND the linked instance of Breeze in an appropriate manner. This is fully automatic. Move the Node away from center and hear the sound move back into the space. Lateral positioning is handled perfectly as well in a hyper-realistic manner.

4) This is a hybrid method were we use short times in the Breee inserts, combined with a longer, shared "tail instance" on a send. Important points:
a) the tail instance should have largish pre-delay. At least 50-100ms.
b) the tail instance should be dense, and not have obvious ERs.
c) the tail instance should be mixed at LOW gain -- it should be subtle. It functions as a global floor for the diffuse energy, such that even if Distance is minimal, there is still some degree of diffuse tail present. This floor should be equal for all tracks, and I repeat: it should be mixed low, in the -12 to -24dB range or so.

* Caveat 1: Input sound(s) should be dry-is and mono-ish. If it is not, use Precedence's Input Mode options to make it more well behaved. On dry libraries, or real close-mic'd performances the above is magic IMHO...

Note the "Vector" insert on the master. You can click on the mono/stereo button to collapse the whole thing to mono also to check for any phase issues.

Edit: here is the Cubase 11 project if you would like to try this if you have Precedence and Breeze. ( If you have demo versions you will have to recreate the settings shown in the screen shot bc the demos do not save preset state. Or try your own variation of this general idea.)

https://2caudio.com/sitecontent/products/pbj/community/Cubase11_PrecedenceBreeze_HybridMethod.zip


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## Hendrixon (Dec 27, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Actually no, or I didn't understand what you said. And of course no breakthrough.
> 
> 
> Well, yes, of course. But I'm talking about the capabilities to shape the tail like in an algo reverb, not that they sound like a Lexicon. If you want a Lexicon tail, use Lexicon or EA. But you do not need to use an algo reverb for the tail to be able to customize it like you can with (some) algo reverbs.
> ...



For its time and price? the MPX-1 had a nice reverb, but yea, nothing groundbreaking  

What I meant earlier regarding SIR is that it doesn't do anything that you couldn't do with any other reverb your self, put some modulation plugin before or after the reverb (or both)... I simply didn't understand what was so special in it.



> that isn't true any more (as I wrote), nowadays with some convo reverbs you can modulate the tail the same way as with algo reverbs. E.g. SIR 3



This "isn't true any more" and "nowadays", that's what confused me, like its a new thing.
I was actually hoping to be wrong, that you meant they found a way to modulate the discrete delays them selves **inside** the convolution process. now THAT will be groundbreaking, not in order to get a Lexicon sound, but to get a more naturally moving reverberation.

Anyway, I just bought something from best service and as a bonus I could choose some free product. I chose their Hall Of Fame convolution reverb with a set of stereo irs of the TC 6000.
It came with a lot of irs (about a gig), I started auditioning them, after like 20-30 irs they all started sounding the same... and after 20-30 more I actually got a head ache
I'll try it again in a couple of days.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Dec 27, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> For its time and price? the MPX-1 had a nice reverb, but yea, nothing groundbreaking
> 
> What I meant earlier regarding SIR is that it doesn't do anything that you couldn't do with any other reverb your self, put some modulation plugin before or after the reverb (or both)... I simply didn't understand what was so special in it.
> 
> ...



SIR3: "allows you transform certain parts (head or tail section) in the time domain. It contains a multi-stage delay with random pitch modulation and random amplitude modulation in the feedback path." 

Seems like the "random amplitude modulation in the feedback path" makes a little different from a conventional chorus... still not clear by how much. 

Curious what they mean by "very low CPU consumption" for SIR3---how low? Breeze 2 / Valhalla Vintage Verb low? Reverence low?

The Halls of Fame TC is the TC 600C from 1998, not TC 6000 from 2003, I think.... I finally got around to installing Halls of Fame, and I was surprised by how much I like their IR-based Lexicons relative to R4 for a more obvious reverb sound. The TC 600C in the free version of Halls of Fame is much less realistic than I was expecting, though that might be the presets they chose---but it sounds good as a brighter character reverb. Not my preference, but I like combining it with darker character/effect reverbs.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Dec 27, 2020)

Trash Panda said:


> Neoverb by Izotope uses the algorithms from the Exponential Audio reverbs like the ones you’re looking at and has a pretty good AI assistant to get you started until you’re more comfortable with adjusting it yourself. The GUI is very intuitive for finding the right mix of reverb styles (room, hall, plate, etc) with built in EQs. It can usually be had for $99 when on sale and will likely get cheaper throughout 2021 since it was new this year.



Perhaps depending on your time zone ("until 12/27", but banner is still up), I think you can still use the code 2020 at Best Service to get Neoverb Crossgrade from any paid Izotope product for $79 ($20 off a $99 order) and choice of one free plugin (including Halls of Fame TC 600, Lex 96L (2002), or R880 (1988) convolution reverb based on IRs of digital hardware units).


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## Hendrixon (Dec 27, 2020)

> Seems like the "random amplitude modulation in the feedback path" makes a little different from a conventional chorus... still not clear by how much.



They have a sound demo there of the amplitude modulation... its just that... amplitude.
Just like a guitar tremolo pedal  
For some reason they don't have there any pitch/frequency modulation demo... wonder why.



> The Halls of Fame TC is the TC 600C from 1998



huh? never heard of this thing. I'm sure its just a vague name to be safe legally from TC.
Google finds nothing.
System 6000 started around 98-99... the dedicated Reverb 6000 came in 2002-2003.
Before that there was the 5000 series.



> installing Halls of Fame, and I was surprised by how much I like their IR-based Lexicons relative to R4 for a more obvious reverb sound.



Yup, Mike Carnes (Exponential developer), even though he came from Lexicon and he was the one that ported their later algos incarnations to the VST plugins, never liked the old heavily modulated algos.
Btw David griesinger, the one that developed all of the old algos, also didn't like them and looked for ways to "get rid" of those fake modulation lol

R2/R4 are not a rebuild of the Lexicon modulated algos, they are just a node too.
VVV is more Lexiconish then those, and the Lexicon PCM VST are the closest in software form.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Dec 28, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> They have a sound demo there of the amplitude modulation... its just that... amplitude.
> Just like a guitar tremolo pedal


Ah, well, time to talk about modulation FX.
Let's start with a phaser: you copy your signál and slightly alter the phase at some points (usually by using all-pass-filters) and add this to the original signál.
Flanger: you copy the signál and add a short delay (not more than 10ms, 15ms, not a delay FX, only 'time') to it and change that delay with a LFO
Chorus (not the pitchtracking Eventide-style ones): like a flanger, but longer delay (around 30ms), often more than one copied and delayed signal.
Tremolo: volume is modulated by a LFO


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## merty (Dec 28, 2020)

I can also suggest slapping a reverb on an EDM/Synthwave track to hear what its doing.

With so much movement in orchestral music, I think thats why most are confused and this is normal. Synth sounds and such arrangements for such test is way easier.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Dec 28, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Chorus (not the pitchtracking Eventide-style ones): like a flanger, but longer delay (around 30ms), often more than one copied and delayed signal.



Perhaps the Wikipedia entry is wrong then?

"The pitch of the added voices is typically modulated by an LFO"






Chorus (audio effect) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Or maybe that's what you mean by "pitchtracking Eventide-style ones".


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## ReleaseCandidate (Dec 28, 2020)

AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> Perhaps the Wikipedia entry is wrong then?
> 
> "The pitch of the added voices is typically modulated by an LFO"



It's not wrong, just strangely formulated. The delay (not a delay FX, that at least includes a feedback loop) is modulated by the LFO, and because of the delayed copy added to the original you change the pitch of the result. And by modulating the delay with a LFO you also modulate the pitch of the result. 
The flanger article is a bit clearer formulated IMHO, like it says in the chorus article, that is just a flanger with a longer delay, no Feedback and usually more than one modulated copy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanging




AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> Or maybe that's what you mean by "pitchtracking Eventide-style ones".


No, Eventide-style chorus tracks the pitch of the incoming audio and adds intervals to single notes (like a fifth and an octave).


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 28, 2020)

Mixing sampled orchestras is one thing, but realistic positioning and a realistic space aren't the only factors with reverbs - although they're certainly extremely important things - and not any old reverb can produce the right sounding tail.

There are a few tests to see whether a reverb cuts muster. Snare drum is a good source to start with.

Try a small space, like the size of a closet. Good reverbs don't sound metallic, bad ones do.

Then try the snare through a long tail and listen for nasty sparkles.

But what seems to separate the men and women from the boys and girls is flute (or similar). Good reverbs just stick to the sound, bad ones just sound like reverbs - artificial.

There's a lot more to it, for example Dietz hepped us to the Acon Digital reverb in a thread like this a few months ago. Listen to that tail vs. your Frodbgalksdnichatnaiasd $15 special reverb. They have a free one that's not very adjustable that you can download. Whoa.

But the Acon Digital reverb isn't the right sound for orchestral mock-ups, it's more for solo instruments.


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## fakemaxwell (Dec 28, 2020)

A lot has been said, but I just wanted to make note of something that is continually confusing about the Exponential Plugins:

If you have R4, you do not need R2. If you only work in stereo, you don't need Symphony. If you do work multichannel and you have Symphony, you don't need R4. I've done tests, even though Izotope says they're "different algorithms" they are 99.99999% identical when matching parameters. 

Same with Phoenix< Nimbus< Stratus. Only need Stratus if you're multichannel. It's a very stupid naming scheme for what is otherwise a very good reverb. The best part for me is being able to flip from stereo to 5.1+ without changing a single thing.

Also- the Fabfilter Pro-R is a good reverb but there's 0 sense in buying it alone, only buy it in the bundle with the rest of the Fabfilter line.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Dec 28, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Mixing sampled [...]


Hmm, I've seen that before. Must be true  

PS: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/what-synth-should-i-buy-next.103502/#post-4727722


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 28, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Hmm, I've seen that before. Must be true
> 
> PS: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/what-synth-should-i-buy-next.103502/#post-4727722



Right, I put it in the wrong thread last time. It's not only true, but extremely important.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Dec 30, 2020)

The Neoverb "crossgrade from any paid Izotope product" for $79 + free choice of plugin (from selection including 3 Halls of Fame reverbs) is available again at Best Service "until midnight January 1st" with code HNY2021


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