# Hollywood strings diamond Legato..tricky to play



## Mishabou (Jul 17, 2015)

Just got HS diamond and trying to get my head around the Legato patches. I checked out the tutorial on their web site.

Loaded a Celli Legato slur + port RR LT 6 patch played a 6/8 line at 76 bpm and keep getting annoying sliding notes unless i pound the crap out of the keyboard. Also the attack is way late that if i play a few 1/8 th notes in succession at the speed mentioned above, the sound is wayy behind even though the midi notes are right on. 

Anyone experienced this ?


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## Mishabou (Jul 17, 2015)

OK just did a search and apparently the ''late'' notes are done on purpose. I still find this kind of counterproductive. Sure we should ''think'' like string players..but the reality is that most of us aren't and having to play the keyboard ahead of time or editing timing after the performance is time consuming.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 17, 2015)

Those patches are for very specific articulations that tend to be slow and slidey. The regular Leg Slur patches will articulate better for medium tempo and even faster. The Marc Legato will articulate greater still for faster passages.


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## trumpoz (Jul 17, 2015)

The leg+port patches are set to velocity to trigger legato vs portamento. The reason you might need to pound your keyboard is that it might not be overly sensitive. The acc/marc legato patches gives a much better attack for the start of the line.


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## Mishabou (Jul 17, 2015)

Are the sliding notes trigged by velocity ? According to the Nick's video only low velocities triggers sliding legato, but i seem to randomly trigger them at low and or mid velocity.


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## trumpoz (Jul 17, 2015)

I stand slightly corrected. From the manual:

"Slur + Portamento: In this patch, the MIDI velocity controls the speed of the interval; the smaller the Velocity (in its range from 1 to 127), the more slowly the pitch moves from one note to the next; faster transitions use more of a slur while slower transitions are a full portamento with a very audible slide in the pitch from one note to the next."

Hence why you may need to press the keys quite hard to get rid of any audible slide.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 18, 2015)

3 things:

1. I generally avoid the portamento patches. Too schmaltzy for most purposes.

2. A lot of the response has to do with your keyboard controller's velocity curves. 

3. Yes, you have to play a little on top of the beat and sometimes adjust the region a little forward later.


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## Jetzer (Jul 18, 2015)

I always find the legato patches a little difficult. I think the key is to use them for specific moments/lines/phrases. 

I like the flexibility of the normal and powerful sustain patches. Having control over vibrato makes a good difference as well. Most of the time, they are good enough, but I have some legato patches available via expression maps in cubase, when needed. 

Just take some time to get used to them and try to think about what you want/need.


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## RiffWraith (Jul 18, 2015)

Have a look at this and see if it helps you:

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=51207


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## Mishabou (Jul 18, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> 3 things:
> 
> 1. I generally avoid the portamento patches. Too schmaltzy for most purposes.
> 
> ...



This is only my second day using the HS and i have the same experience. When playing a Legato slur + Port patch, i keep triggering the Portamento for no reason, even when pounding my keys. I find the scripting of HS not user friendly at all. Spitfire responds perfectly to my playing using the same Roland A88 controller.

I also notice that if i increase CC#1 (amount of vibrato), the portamento aren't as trigger-happy. Any one notice this ?

1- Is there a way to turn on/off the Portamento via expression map ?

2- if Q1 is not possible and i only use the Legato slur patch, how can i insert Portamento, i don't see any Portamento patches

3- What patch do you suggest for melody that includes slow and fast legato ?

thx


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## Lawson. (Jul 18, 2015)

Anhtu said:


> 3- What patch do you suggest for melody that includes slow and fast legato ?
> 
> thx



I use "Leg BC + Slur + Port RR LT 12 Ni" as my legato patch. It handles pretty much anything. I'll whip up a demo real quick.

EDIT: Here ya go!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 18, 2015)

Anhtu said:


> This is only my second day using the HS and i have the same experience. When playing a Legato slur + Port patch, i keep triggering the Portamento for no reason, even when pounding my keys. I find the scripting of HS not user friendly at all. Spitfire responds perfectly to my playing using the same Roland A88 controller.
> 
> I also notice that if i increase CC#1 (amount of vibrato), the portamento aren't as trigger-happy. Any one notice this ?
> 
> ...



No, but with the regular legato slur patches there is a portamento script that can be toggled on/off by cc 65 I believe and those are what I use most of the time. The fact is that in most modern string writing, portamento is used sparingly as it leads to cloying sounding parts.


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## Mishabou (Jul 18, 2015)

Lawson. said:


> I use "Leg BC + Slur + Port RR LT 12 Ni" as my legato patch. It handles pretty much anything. I'll whip up a demo real quick.



Do you mind posting the midi file ? I'm just curious as exactly how you play the parts in order to not trigger the Port and how you deal with fast legato runs. 

Fast legato runs are a nightmare as the ''transition time'' induced between notes creates a significant delay. 

Thanks a lot for your help


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## Mishabou (Jul 18, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> No, but with the regular legato slur patches there is a portamento script that can be toggled on/off by cc 65 I believe and those are what I use most of the time. The fact is that in most modern string writing, portamento is used sparingly as it leads to cloying sounding parts.


 
Thanks for the info, good to know!

Do you use CC#1 when playing the parts live ?


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 18, 2015)

Anhtu said:


> Do you mind posting the midi file ? I'm just curious as exactly how you play the parts in order to not trigger the Port and how you deal with fast legato runs.
> 
> Fast legato runs are a nightmare as the ''transition time'' induced between notes creates a significant delay.
> 
> Thanks a lot for your help



For fast legato runs, you really want the Slur Runs or Spic Runs Smooth in the Playable Rubs folder within the Effects folder IMHO.


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## Mishabou (Jul 18, 2015)

If you watch Nick's Legato video, he's using the Leg BC + Slur + Port RR LT 12 Ni patch and manage to pull off some very nice legato (fast and slow) lines. I assume he's playing those lines live, and if so i definitely want to figure out how he did it.


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## Lawson. (Jul 18, 2015)

Anhtu said:


> Do you mind posting the midi file ? I'm just curious as exactly how you play the parts in order to not trigger the Port and how you deal with fast legato runs.
> 
> Fast legato runs are a nightmare as the ''transition time'' induced between notes creates a significant delay.
> 
> Thanks a lot for your help



You're welcome! I played it in at the keyboard and then tweaked everything slightly.



"Leg BC + Slur + Port RR LT 12 Ni" with Main mics and QL Spaces' "Northwest Hall TS RR 2.6s".


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## Matt Hawken (Jul 18, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> For fast legato runs, you really want the Slur Runs or Spic Runs Smooth


Jay's right, those patches are designed for fast runs. They play back faster than they record. Also, I find the stacc slur patches more responsive than the general leg patches.

In real life, as a string player myself, strings are notorious for being 'behind the beat.' It's just the nature of things. Strings take a while to speak under the bow, shifting to a new position takes time, the first violins are always being overly dramatic...! This carries over to the samples. As a cello player, the legato celli in Hollywood Strings sounds amazingly true to life.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 18, 2015)

Anhtu said:


> If you watch Nick's Legato video, he's using the Leg BC + Slur + Port RR LT 12 Ni patch and manage to pull off some very nice legato (fast and slow) lines. I assume he's playing those lines live, and if so i definitely want to figure out how he did it.




Yes, personally, I don't love the way that sounds.


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## Mishabou (Jul 18, 2015)

Lawson. said:


> You're welcome! I played it in at the keyboard and then tweaked everything slightly.
> 
> 
> 
> "Leg BC + Slur + Port RR LT 12 Ni" with Main mics and QL Spaces' "Northwest Hall TS RR 2.6s".



Thx a lot...can you tell me the time sign and tempo of your file ? Was it done in CB ?


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## Mishabou (Jul 18, 2015)

Anhtu said:


> Thx a lot...can you tell me the time sign and tempo of your file ? Was it done in CB ?



Just open your file in CB and yes indeed in order to not trigger the Portamento, your runs are all pretty close to velocity 127. 

Again, just plain bad scripting... naturally no piano player would pound the crap out of their piano on fast runs with zero dynamics! Yes it's important to ''think'' like a string player but at the end of the day, all these libraries are meant to be played on a keyboard so how about make it keyboard friendly  without compromising the end results...

Anyways, thx everyone for your help.


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## Lawson. (Jul 18, 2015)

IIRC it's 95 bpm and 3|4.

Also, to play devil's advocate, I don't think HS (or any library, really) is meant to be played on a keyboard. They're meant to be programmed. Sure, you can use them with a keyboard to input MIDI data, but you really have to go under-the-hood so to speak and tweak them.

EDIT: Note that I'm not a keyboard player. I can pick my way around the keys and input MIDI data, but I'm not a "player" per say.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 18, 2015)

Lawson. said:


> IIRC it's 95 bpm and 3|4.
> 
> Also, to play devil's advocate, I don't think HS (or any library, really) is meant to be played on a keyboard. They're meant to be programmed. Sure, you can use them with a keyboard to input MIDI data, but you really have to go under-the-hood so to speak and tweak them.



_Absolutely_ wrong, sir. HS is _definitely_ designed to be played from a keyboard and that is virtually all I do. The same is true AFAIK for Nick Phoenix as well.


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## Mishabou (Jul 18, 2015)

Lawson. said:


> IIRC it's 95 bpm and 3|4.
> 
> Also, to play devil's advocate, I don't think HS (or any library, really) is meant to be played on a keyboard. They're meant to be programmed. Sure, you can use them with a keyboard to input MIDI data, but you really have to go under-the-hood so to speak and tweak them.



I play all my string parts live all the time, with very minor or no tweak at all and i'm not even a ''real'' keyboard player...i'm a drummer. I use Spitfire Mural. I was looking for a more in your face, less buttery and reverbish sound and thought i give HS a try. HS sounds good but its playability, for me anyways, is not very good.

Sure string libraries are definitely meant to be played on keys as it's one of the only way to input the notes  This is where innovative and smart scripting will make a big difference between spending forever editing/tweaking vs play the parts + minor or no edit and move on to the next cue. I definitely prefer the latter option.

Obviously, this is only my experience since EastWest Lurler and others have used this library successfully.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 18, 2015)

Anhtu said:


> Obviously, this is only my experience since EastWest Lurker and others have used this library successfully.



That's because I AM a real keyboard player


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## Mishabou (Jul 18, 2015)

BTW, do you use templates with HS and would you mind sharing a basic one ? I'm curious what patch you use....


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## Lawson. (Jul 18, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> _Absolutely_ wrong, sir. HS is _definitely_ designed to be played from a keyboard and that is virtually all I do. The same is true AFAIK for Nick Phoenix as well.



I'll take your word for it! I'm not a keyboard player. :D


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## marcinfx (Sep 21, 2015)

Lawson. said:


> I use "Leg BC + Slur + Port RR LT 12 Ni" as my legato patch. It handles pretty much anything. I'll whip up a demo real quick.
> 
> EDIT: Here ya go!





BTW - using patch Leg BC + Slur + Port RR LT 12 Ni I want to make a pause . Play two bars : 4/4 - 3 quarter notes , 8th and a pause. Next bar playing the same. The problem is the 1-st note in second bar starts playing from last note of the first bar.
I solved this problem using two the same patches on two different midi channels. Is there only one way to "cut legato"?


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 21, 2015)

Personally, I have never liked the way the bow change patches respond, I much prefer the regular legato slur patches.


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## marcinfx (Sep 21, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Personally, I have never liked the way the bow change patches respond, I much prefer the regular legato slur patches.


Ok,ok - but legato patches wants to "be legato"  blending notes each other . I want to find the way to simply separate phrases


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 21, 2015)

marcinfx said:


> Ok,ok - but legato patches wants to "be legato"  blending notes each other . I want to find the way to simply separate phrases



Fine but if you are not doing a lot of repeated notes, why are you using the round robin patches? Does this still happen for you with e.g. 1st Violins Leg Slur Ni?


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## marcinfx (Sep 21, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Does this still happen for you with e.g. 1st Violins Leg Slur Ni


Yes. Just now tried. Everything is ok, till I use pause. Looking for something like RR reset for a bow, to "forget what was before" - 2 separate , the same patches seems to be only one way.

I changed patch to 1st violine LEg BD + SLur + Port LT. Anyway , even first note started from preceding note. I have to click on it to start playing well


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## reddognoyz (Sep 21, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> 3 things:
> 
> 1. I generally avoid the portamento patches. Too schmaltzy for most purposes.



Clearly you haven't heard what I do for a living lol : )


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 21, 2015)

marcinfx said:


> Yes. Just now tried. Everything is ok, till I use pause. Looking for something like RR reset for a bow, to "forget what was before" - 2 separate , the same patches seems to be only one way.
> 
> I changed patch to 1st violine LEg BD + SLur + Port LT. Anyway , even first note started from preceding note. I have to click on it to start playing well




Send me a MIDI file that illustrates this, please. [email protected]


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 21, 2015)

reddognoyz said:


> Clearly you haven't heard what I do for a living lol : )


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 21, 2015)

marcinfx said:


> Yes. Just now tried. Everything is ok, till I use pause. Looking for something like RR reset for a bow, to "forget what was before" - 2 separate , the same patches seems to be only one way.
> 
> I changed patch to 1st violine LEg BD + SLur + Port LT. Anyway , even first note started from preceding note. I have to click on it to start playing well




BTW, did you know that in the Play settings you can assign a round robin reset to a note or controller?


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## marcinfx (Sep 21, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> BTW, did you know that in the Play settings you can assign a round robin reset to a note or controller?



Of course, I use it ( like all of us ) to RR reset. But I don't know how it could be useful this case


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 21, 2015)

marcinfx said:


> Of course, I use it ( like all of us ) to RR reset. But I don't know how it could be useful this case



Well, you wrote: "Looking for something like RR reset for a bow, to "forget what was before".


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## marcinfx (Sep 21, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Well, you wrote: "Looking for something like RR reset for a bow, to "forget what was before".


I tried to do this way, as a CC RR reset and ( or ) using Cubase expression map. Not helped.


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## JohnG (Sep 21, 2015)

Not that this is necessarily relevant, but I don't use the legato patches much. I like the sound of the sus patches well enough, 90% of the time. Sometimes, it's very important, but rarely.


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## marcinfx (Sep 21, 2015)

JohnG said:


> Not that this is necessarily relevant, but I don't use the legato patches much. I like the sound of the sus patches well enough, 90% of the time. Sometimes, it's very important, but rarely.



working on a specific project often use the settings that I know well ( and only those one) . Now I want to learn "HS Diamond" patch by patch - all, this is why sometimes I have to ask... Thanks


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## JohnG (Sep 21, 2015)

marcinfx said:


> working on a specific project often use the settings that I know well ( and only those one) . Now I want to learn "HS Diamond" patch by patch - all, this is why sometimes I have to ask



Very fair! I use the marcato legato slur patch a fair amount, in both v1 and vcl. The marcato element of the patch give you the attack and the legato is there too. Personally I almost never use portamento because I don't care for it, real or sampled. I tried the Stac slur legato patches but couldn't quite get the hang of those, but that is an alternative to the marcato legato patches -- these also feature a more definite attack.

For timing, in general, I think it's necessary to go through every patch on one's template -- East West and others -- and check timing for when it actually records into the DAW or Pro Tools or whatever you're using. It's very tedious but I have a midi shift on nearly every track in my template to try to hone in on whatever timing I'm composing. This makes recording live overdubs and mixing much more successful.

[note: I have received free products from East West]


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## marcinfx (Sep 21, 2015)

JohnG said:


> Very fair! I use the marcato legato slur patch a fair amount, in both v1 and vcl. The marcato element of the patch give you the attack and the legato is there too. Personally I almost never use portamento because I don't care for it, real or sampled. I tried the Stac slur legato patches but couldn't quite get the hang of those, but that is an alternative to the marcato legato patches -- these also feature a more definite attack.
> 
> For timing, in general, I think it's necessary to go through every patch on one's template -- East West and others -- and check timing for when it actually records into the DAW or Pro Tools or whatever you're using. It's very tedious but I have a midi shift on nearly every track in my template to try to hone in on whatever timing I'm composing. This makes recording live overdubs and mixing much more successful.
> 
> [note: I have received free products from East West]




Absolutely right ! What does it mean  ? [note: I have received free products from East West] - free, for 3, for 3 thousand.... OK. joking only


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## NYC Composer (Sep 21, 2015)

Contrarily, I use the legato patches quite a lot. Both legato and sus patches are in my template, but for any kind of agile moving harmony, I find that using sus patches gives you the dreaded "Arp String Ensemble" sound (this is not limited to HS, btw.). Sus patches are fine for slow moving pads.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 21, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Contrarily, I use the legato patches quite a lot. Both legato and sus patches are in my template, but for any kind of agile moving harmony, I find that using sus patches gives you the dreaded "Arp String Ensemble" sound (this is not limited to HS, btw.). Sus patches are fine for slow moving pads.



For me, it depends on the passage. I will generally try the legato slur patch first, but switch if I am not happy with what I am hearing.


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## JohnG (Sep 21, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> using sus patches gives you the dreaded "Arp String Ensemble" sound



Not if you play sloppily enough.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 21, 2015)

JohnG said:


> Not if you play sloppily enough.



I'll work on that.


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## JohnG (Sep 21, 2015)

It's taken me a lifetime of practice.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 21, 2015)

"Practice makes imperfect."


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## marcinfx (Mar 26, 2017)

Hey wise guys  I have a simple still the same question ( now we have Play 5 , maybe something changed ) - ok.... using Hollywood Strings Diamond how to play 8 notes 1/8 4 down bow and 4 up bow - don't tell me all is in pdf. Please tell me how to do this simple thing, only 8 notes . I want to decide when to change the bow. I hope someone will help.


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## Steve Martin (Mar 27, 2017)

Lawson. said:


> I use "Leg BC + Slur + Port RR LT 12 Ni" as my legato patch. It handles pretty much anything. I'll whip up a demo real quick.
> 
> EDIT: Here ya go!



Thanks for that demo Lawson, I've got HS Diamond and that string sound is superb! Thanks, Steve


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## marcinfx (Mar 27, 2017)

.... and ? I asked about how to change a bow . What if I want to play 2,3 or 4 notes on one, down bow , then next 2,3 or 4 up bow - how to change direction of the bow.... This patch above is RR. I want to decide when direction is changing


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## ModalRealist (Mar 27, 2017)

marcinfx said:


> .... and ? I asked about how to change a bow . What if I want to play 2,3 or 4 notes on one, down bow , then next 2,3 or 4 up bow - how to change direction of the bow.... This patch above is RR. I want to decide when direction is changing



I don't think Steve was replying to you. He was simply thanking Lawson.

As to your question... I believe you can only control up and down bows using the split sustain patches: e.g. Sus 13 Down Bow, and Sus 13 Up Bow.

(Also, non-RR legato patches will only use downbow samples, I think.)


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## marcinfx (Mar 27, 2017)

ModalRealist said:


> I don't think Steve was replying to you. He was simply thanking Lawson.
> 
> As to your question... I believe you can only control up and down bows using the split sustain patches: e.g. Sus 13 Down Bow, and Sus 13 Up Bow.
> 
> (Also, non-RR legato patches will only use downbow samples, I think.)



 OK. I have one idea - I'm going to test the same bow change RR patch on two different tracks and use muted notes to change a direction of RR. Maybe it is the way .... who knows ....


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## marcinfx (Mar 27, 2017)

Even on one track with RR patch muted note change direction. That's all I need. Good to answer myself


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