# Chord Relations,Scales?



## nik (Oct 26, 2018)

hey guys,
just was watching a video of rick beato about common Chords Relationships JW uses a lot. they all sound great and i wonder what my approach of writing a melody over these would be. Normally i mostly stick to diatonic tones that are in my scale for melody writing. i see he is not using diatonic chords, like Tritones with minor chords,Tritones with Major Chords or for example minor chord to a minor chord a third up. So How can i know which scales to use over this chords? Just trying out by ear wouldnt satisfy the theoretic side in me
Would love to see how u approach this,
thanks 
Nik


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## Rob (Oct 26, 2018)

I don't really know since, like you, I tend to think of a pocket of sounds that go with a certain chord, be it scale or chord extensions and connect them giving a sense of continuity... like going up in a linear fashion and simply entering the new scale from where I'm at so that it sounds natural. Do you have a link to the video?


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 26, 2018)

Modal interchange


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## nik (Oct 26, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Modal interchange


Thanks for the replie,So u say all these examples will relate to one specific mode?


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## nik (Oct 26, 2018)

Rob said:


> I don't really know since, like you, I tend to think of a pocket of sounds that go with a certain chord, be it scale or chord extensions and connect them giving a sense of continuity... like going up in a linear fashion and simply entering the new scale from where I'm at so that it sounds natural. Do you have a link to the video?


thanks for the reply, there u go buddy


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 26, 2018)

A lot can be said about modal interchange. Google is your friend for now. Every chord in a song has a corresponding chord scale. actually there could be several different chord scales and it’s all up to you what you want passing tones to be.


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## Rob (Oct 26, 2018)

ok, what he's doing is showing the different psychological effect that you have when juxtaposing two different triads... most of these anyway belong to the diminished or the lydian scales, so you have a common mode there...


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## nik (Oct 26, 2018)

Rob said:


> ok, what he's doing is showing the different psychological effect that you have when juxtaposing two different triads... most of these anyway belong to the diminished or the lydian scales, so you have a common mode there...


great thanks a lot


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## Rob (Oct 26, 2018)

I don't think I'd go looking for great melodies there though... the contrast between harmonies is so potent that I'd just keep the melody very simple and let the colors of chords show off...


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 26, 2018)

The point of modal interchange is that you change the scale for each chord, rather then try to hunt for some kind of common scale that works across both or all as if the whole piece is in some kind of single all encompassing scale. The chord scale you use changes over the course of a chord progression, each chord can have its own scale...and modal interchange theory is how you can figure out what those chord scales should be.

In Rick's second example of using two major chords a whole step apart, you end up with an overall Lydian kind of sound. So you might be able to superimpose a common Lydian scale over the whole thing, but generally I think you will find that in that case you use one chord scale over the first chord, and a different chord scale over the other chord... and the Lydian sound will pop out but in a more sensible way that supports the underlying harmony progression.


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## Rob (Oct 26, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> The point of modal interchange is that you change the scale for each chord, rather then try to hunt for some kind of common scale that works across both or all as if the whole piece is in some kind of single all encompassing scale. The chord scale you use changes over the course of a chord progression, each chord can have its own scale...and modal interchange theory is how you can figure out what those chord scales should be.
> 
> In Rick's second example of using two major chords a whole step apart, you end up with an overall Lydian kind of sound. So you might be able to superimpose a common Lydian scale over the whole thing, but generally I think you will find that in that case you use one chord scale over the first chord, and a different chord scale over the other chord... and the Lydian sound will pop out but in a more sensible way that supports the underlying harmony progression.



absolutely true, in fact that's my preferred solution in such cases, but if you need a unifying mode, it's there as well... but I agree that nicest lines come out of treating each chord as a unit, actually that's what I meant in my first reply...


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## D Halgren (Oct 26, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> The point of modal interchange is that you change the scale for each chord, rather then try to hunt for some kind of common scale that works across both or all as if the whole piece is in some kind of single all encompassing scale. The chord scale you use changes over the course of a chord progression, each chord can have its own scale...and modal interchange theory is how you can figure out what those chord scales should be.
> 
> In Rick's second example of using two major chords a whole step apart, you end up with an overall Lydian kind of sound. So you might be able to superimpose a common Lydian scale over the whole thing, but generally I think you will find that in that case you use one chord scale over the first chord, and a different chord scale over the other chord... and the Lydian sound will pop out but in a more sensible way that supports the underlying harmony progression.


You can buy his Beato book and it has the charts for all the chord scales, as Dewdman is saying.


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## ism (Oct 26, 2018)

Also extremely usefull is the neo-Remmanian approach as per Frank Lehman’s “Hollywood Harmony”


https://books.google.ca/books/about...=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y

His point is that modal interchange analysis and the like isn’t wrong, but sometime the point of the sort of effects that Williams Horner et al use are better understood using a non-functional framework, ie. the point of some of these passages where you key changes on every chord is better understood in terms of the more for the effect they’re going for, which i’d argue is as usefully understood as a kind of of “screw you functional analysis”, or as Mike Verta puts in his On Horner masterclass “F*&^ it, it’s all about the moment”. 

More technically, the changes are more easily described but the local symmetry properties of individual chord changes, rather that a larger context of the key you happen to be in and the function of chords the key imposed.


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## ed buller (Oct 26, 2018)

it's a mine field but the immediate takeaway is that by limiting your note choices for a top line and NOT thinking in terms of a scale that will fit all chords at all times is the best approach. JW uses his variant of CHORD SCALE THEORY .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord-scale_system

So rather than try and define an all encompassing tonal space that works for every chord start with using the notes from each chord as a scale..then See what you can add to make connections. This is a method that always works and has a lot of use in Jazz. 

this is from Empire strikes back and as you can see each chord provides it's own scale to use. When JW is writing big themes though he tends to start of diatonically and use borrowings for the fancy bit's . Her his choices are more straightforward and almost classical. Study Tchaikovsky ( sleeping beauty ). Wagner too. Tannhauser is a great example. Big melodies with plenty of chromatic notes harmonized with modal interchange and chromatic chords. 

Best

ED


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 26, 2018)

nik said:


> hey guys,
> just was watching a video of rick beato about common Chords Relationships JW uses a lot. they all sound great and i wonder what my approach of writing a melody over these would be. Normally i mostly stick to diatonic tones that are in my scale for melody writing. i see he is not using diatonic chords, like Tritones with minor chords,Tritones with Major Chords or for example minor chord to a minor chord a third up. So How can i know which scales to use over this chords? Just trying out by ear wouldnt satisfy the theoretic side in me
> Would love to see how u approach this,
> thanks
> Nik



Forget that theory thinking, Nik. Or I say at least: Put that first in a closet. In order to write more like JW, go and transcribe and reverse engineer his orchestral music to 2 hand piano .Williams uses all sorts of combinations of those chord to chord things in almost if not all intervalls, in all bi-directional ways and there is no way to catch that with simple cook recipes from simple diatonic book theory, but there are things he preferres to do. By transcribing his themes and underscores you will find out which patterns repeat more often and that are crucial parts of his style. Use these patterns and anchors and learn them like vocabulary, repeat them, play them, learn more of them and get familiar with the tone, sound and mood. You also need to develop an ear for those chords and tonalities. I REPEAT: DEVELOP AN EAR and UNDERSTANDING FOR THAT is IMPORTANT. But that stiff scale theory thinking is totally non helping whatsoever imo. Its concrete biting I know, but you need to do that, there is no shortcut whatsoever..it takes time especially in his case because his music ranges from diatonic to very loose harmony and is therefore extremely diverse. I know it is tempting to ask that and while I can understand that we all try to put things into theory to make our lives easier often I feel theory makes it even worse and much more limiting.


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## Saxer (Oct 27, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Forget that theory thinking, Nik. Or I say at least: Put that first in a closet.


I think there are two kinds of theory thinking. One is to get a set of rules to make everything "right". Often taught in schools like "forbidden notes or intervals" in polyphonic writing and things like that. Mostly forgotten that this rules are there for the learning process only. Like in a language lesson learning to talk in conjunctive mode. In that lesson using present tense is probably wrong. What doesn't mean that present tense is wrong at all. But knowing how to use conjunctive mode and present tense makes you a more versatile writer if you have to say or write something interesting. If you don't have to say something interesting it doesn't make a difference anyway. So don't repeat the rules of lessens but understand them.
But there is also theory as a box of possibilities. Try out the diminished scale and build chords out of any step. It is like a big palette of colors. All the time I try out things like that I think: wow, why didn't you ever use this? Or that? Same with theoretical constructions of melodies. Like using only half steps and thirds. Or avoiding notes of the basic comping triad in the melody. Things like that. It's theory but it opens doors all the time.
Understanding theory is the key to develop new things. Transcribing is great to learn what others did. It's important! But sometimes it isn't wrong to go other ways too.


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## nik (Oct 27, 2018)

ed buller said:


> it's a mine field but the immediate takeaway is that by limiting your note choices for a top line and NOT thinking in terms of a scale that will fit all chords at all times is the best approach. JW uses his variant of CHORD SCALE THEORY .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord-scale_system
> 
> So rather than try and define an all encompassing tonal space that works for every chord start with using the notes from each chord as a scale..then See what you can add to make connections. This is a method that always works and has a lot of use in Jazz.
> 
> ...


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## nik (Oct 27, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> The point of modal interchange is that you change the scale for each chord, rather then try to hunt for some kind of common scale that works across both or all as if the whole piece is in some kind of single all encompassing scale. The chord scale you use changes over the course of a chord progression, each chord can have its own scale...and modal interchange theory is how you can figure out what those chord scales should be.
> 
> In Rick's second example of using two major chords a whole step apart, you end up with an overall Lydian kind of sound. So you might be able to superimpose a common Lydian scale over the whole thing, but generally I think you will find that in that case you use one chord scale over the first chord, and a different chord scale over the other chord... and the Lydian sound will pop out but in a more sensible way that supports the underlying harmony progression.


So as long as the chord is a diatonic one, no mather minor or major i know i can find a scale of its mode. My teacher for jazz guitar always told me to look for the closest mode where this chord is in. But how do we apprch non diatonic chords. Lets say in C major we suddenly got a #fm ? i think there is no mode we could draw that from right?


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## nik (Oct 27, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Forget that theory thinking, Nik. Or I say at least: Put that first in a closet. In order to write more like JW, go and transcribe and reverse engineer his orchestral music to 2 hand piano .Williams uses all sorts of combinations of those chord to chord things in almost if not all intervalls, in all bi-directional ways and there is no way to catch that with simple cook recipes from simple diatonic book theory, but there are things he preferres to do. By transcribing his themes and underscores you will find out which patterns repeat more often and that are crucial parts of his style. Use these patterns and anchors and learn them like vocabulary, repeat them, play them, learn more of them and get familiar with the tone, sound and mood. You also need to develop an ear for those chords and tonalities. I REPEAT: DEVELOP AN EAR and UNDERSTANDING FOR THAT is IMPORTANT. But that stiff scale theory thinking is totally non helping whatsoever imo. Its concrete biting I know, but you need to do that, there is no shortcut whatsoever..it takes time especially in his case because his music ranges from diatonic to very loose harmony and is therefore extremely diverse. I know it is tempting to ask that and while I can understand that we all try to put things into theory to make our lives easier often I feel theory makes it even worse and much more limiting.


Thanks Alex,i missed our theory talks!


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## nik (Oct 27, 2018)

Saxer said:


> I think there are two kinds of theory thinking. One is to get a set of rules to make everything "right". Often taught in schools like "forbidden notes or intervals" in polyphonic writing and things like that. Mostly forgotten that this rules are there for the learning process only. Like in a language lesson learning to talk in conjunctive mode. In that lesson using present tense is probably wrong. What doesn't mean that present tense is wrong at all. But knowing how to use conjunctive mode and present tense makes you a more versatile writer if you have to say or write something interesting. If you don't have to say something interesting it doesn't make a difference anyway. So don't repeat the rules of lessens but understand them.
> But there is also theory as a box of possibilities. Try out the diminished scale and build chords out of any step. It is like a big palette of colors. All the time I try out things like that I think: wow, why didn't you ever use this? Or that? Same with theoretical constructions of melodies. Like using only half steps and thirds. Or avoiding notes of the basic comping triad in the melody. Things like that. It's theory but it opens doors all the time.
> Understanding theory is the key to develop new things. Transcribing is great to learn what others did. It's important! But sometimes it isn't wrong to go other ways too.


Hey thanks a lot, will check the diminished scale out.Is it used a lot in orchestral writing?


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## ed buller (Oct 27, 2018)

nik said:


> Hey thanks a lot, will check the diminished scale out.Is it used a lot in orchestral writing?



it's also known as Octatonic and yes it's constantly used. It's very popular in john Williams action cues especially ( along with Hungarian Minor and Ukrainian Dorian ) the more extreme ones. It's the go to scale for a lot of composers in writing action or excitement music. Where Eagles Dare is pretty much ALL octatonic. Henry Jackman is a master of it.

e


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## nik (Oct 27, 2018)

ed buller said:


> it's also known as Octatonic and yes it's constantly used. It's very popular in john Williams action cues especially ( along with Hungarian Minor and Ukrainian Dorian ) the more extreme ones. It's the go to scale for a lot of composers in writing action or excitement music. Where Eagles Dare is pretty much ALL octatonic. Henry Jackman is a master of it.
> 
> e


awsome thnks a lot, will check that out now!


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 27, 2018)

Regarding theory in general.... as many like to say, once you know all the rules, you are free to break them... But the point of learning these rules is that you come to understand things like the consonances and dissonances that are associated with chord and scale tones... Its all subjective, but to be a master of your craft you play with the ebb and flow of making dissonances and consonances...and dissonance is a relative term! There is no such thing as an absolutely wrong dissonance, if that is the effect you specifically want. Understanding the theory of it, is how you are the master to it.

Here are some books about model interchange and chord scale theory, but if you google around you can find lots of free information about it with a lot of different points of view. The Berklee harmony books 1-4, especially #4 that are used as their textbooks, also get into this stuff and if you google around the the PDF's are all over the net.

This one is written by the Author, Barrie Nettles who also wrote the Berklee 30 year old harmony text books:



Possibly a more modern take on the same subject. I haven't read this one:



Another classic:



There are lots of guitar books and theories out there about how to choose the right scale to play over a given chord. Look for those also, that is basically the same concept, matching chord scales to chords, in the context of guitar soloing...

Don't let the word "Jazz" scare you away from any of these either, the same theory can apply to film scoring and other forms of music unless you specifically go out of your way to make it sound jazzy.

Let me just summarize it by saying for any given key that a tonal piece of music is in (tonal is another subjective term but let's not go there right now). For any piece that is for example in the key of C major; there are 11 other tones of the chromatic scale, and for almost every one of those tones, there is a chord that can be used in a way that the music doesn't really leave the key of C entirely. It strays a little bit, but still sounds right coming back. It "strays" by virtue of non-diatonic tones found in 5 out of the 12 chromatic notes. But there are specific chord scales that can be used on those non-diatonic chords, and some rules about which tension notes can be added, and which need to be avoided, etc.. for that you need to roll up your sleeves and study some of this material.

The JW materials mentioned early are very interesting for film scoring and part of the reason they are so interesting is that they "stray" away from diatonic a little more than some others. Yet they still come back..


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## gsilbers (Oct 27, 2018)

someone mentioned before but some poeple like rick beato can think in that sort of context. play random chords and can recite what scales could go with that or all that sort of complext thoery stuff. 
i swear he is just like the berklee teachers i had. italian american up in your face type of northeasterners. its just amazing, for those jazz cats thats what they live for. they go around playing at 300bpm and changing chords every bar and keeping track of the scales that can fit each chord. 
and then other composers who just play it by ear see how it goes and then reverse engineer it. 
or a middle of both i guess. i think everyone might have a different aproach. 
here is one video of my pal freddy explaning a little about a star wars. maybe it helps. 


i think blakus and other guys in youtube have videos on how to "get it" (that JW star wars vibe). 
obviously JW is in another level.


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## ism (Oct 27, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Regarding theory in general.... as many like to say, once you know all the rules, you are free to break them...




David Huron's book on the science of voice leading goes farther - that in learning how to do good voice leading, you also learn what I've been calling "anti-voice" leading, or voice-merging. 

Voice leading gives you a raft of the techniques aimed at get raw sound (ie physical wobbly air) to separate into independently heard perceptual streams. But it teaches you not just how to break the rules, but the theory of breaking the rules to the absolute maximum amount possible - or applying the 'anti-rules' if you prefer. The effect of which is to get things to mix and merge and cohere as much as possible - which is as important and difficult a thing to learn to do well as voice leading. And which, thus conceived, (anti-)voice leading teaches you for free.


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## nik (Oct 27, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Regarding theory in general.... as many like to say, once you know all the rules, you are free to break them... But the point of learning these rules is that you come to understand things like the consonances and dissonances that are associated with chord and scale tones... Its all subjective, but to be a master of your craft you play with the ebb and flow of making dissonances and consonances...and dissonance is a relative term! There is no such thing as an absolutely wrong dissonance, if that is the effect you specifically want. Understanding the theory of it, is how you are the master to it.
> 
> Here are some books about model interchange and chord scale theory, but if you google around you can find lots of free information about it with a lot of different points of view. The Berklee harmony books 1-4, especially #4 that are used as their textbooks, also get into this stuff and if you google around the the PDF's are all over the net.
> 
> ...



wow thanks so much for all this information!!


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## nik (Oct 27, 2018)

ism said:


> David Huron's book on the science of voice leading goes farther - that in learning how to do good voice leading, you also learn what I've been calling "anti-voice" leading, or voice-merging.
> 
> Voice leading gives you a raft of the techniques aimed at get raw sound (ie physical wobbly air) to separate into independently heard perceptual streams. But it teaches you not just how to break the rules, but the theory of breaking the rules to the absolute maximum amount possible - or applying the 'anti-rules' if you prefer. The effect of which is to get things to mix and merge and cohere as much as possible - which is as important and difficult a thing to learn to do well as voice leading. And which, thus conceived, (anti-)voice leading teaches you for free.


great thanks a lot


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## nik (Oct 27, 2018)

t


ism said:


> David Huron's book on the science of voice leading goes farther - that in learning how to do good voice leading, you also learn what I've been calling "anti-voice" leading, or voice-merging.
> 
> Voice leading gives you a raft of the techniques aimed at get raw sound (ie physical wobbly air) to separate into independently heard perceptual streams. But it teaches you not just how to break the rules, but the theory of breaking the rules to the absolute maximum amount possible - or applying the 'anti-rules' if you prefer. The effect of which is to get things to mix and merge and cohere as much as possible - which is as important and difficult a thing to learn to do well as voice leading. And which, thus conceived, (anti-)voice leading teaches you for free.


thanks a lot!


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## ism (Oct 27, 2018)

I can't recommend this book enough:




It doesn't teach you theory, but its quite stunning in how it demonstrates what the point of theory is in the first place.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 27, 2018)

Thanks ism. This been on my amazon wish list for quite some time. I just pulled the trigger on it, will look forward to it.


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