# Best Woodwinds?



## 5Lives (May 14, 2016)

Hello all,

I have CineWinds Core + Pro, but the articulations are pretty limited and they still have some background noise even after the latest update.

Looking around, it seems Berlin Woodwinds is a popular choice. However, I also checked out Chris Hein's Winds video and the stuff he seems to be doing in his libraries is pretty great from a programmability standpoint. I was considering getting Cinesamples Hollywoodwinds for runs, but at $199, I feel I'd rather invest in another whole library.

Any opinions on Berlin WW vs. CH Winds? The other option is probably EW Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds, but after buying Orchestral Brass and getting pops and clicks on my setup, I'm wary of anything in the EW Hollywood Orchestra.

Thank you!


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## micrologus (May 14, 2016)

I have VSL Woodwinds (extended) and they are excellent.


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## kuma (May 15, 2016)

BWW is good for ensemble.
CHW is good for solo.


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## Erik (May 15, 2016)

5Lives, you could do some research here, just search on _woodwinds _etc.. Plenty of comparisons. There are many fine products between them. Don't overlook Westgate, besides the big names.


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## passsacaglia (May 15, 2016)

Erik said:


> 5Lives, you could do some research here, just search on _woodwinds _etc.. Plenty of comparisons. There are many fine products between them. Don't overlook Westgate, besides the big names.


Word. WG solo oboe and english horn and flutes, damn. TBH those are the best ones Iv ever heard. Ever, and totally beats VSL and Berlin woods to me. I think one has a "sound" in their mind and a personal impression of how an oboe "should" sound, listening to all the samples out there and when you finally find it, you know that "this is the one".
For me it was westgate, there's a video comparison on youtube on flutes oboes etc. 
@5Lives check it out and also the westgate samples.


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## trumpoz (May 15, 2016)

I got the VSL Woodwinds SE on their last sale. Just very basic articulations but I love the sound.

edit - just checked the Westgate demos on the link you posted. The oboe is beautiful.


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## Harcourt (May 15, 2016)

The oboe in ProjectSam's Lumina is one of the best I've heard, for slow lyrical pieces....wish they did a woodwinds collection.


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## chibear (May 15, 2016)

I've been woodwind shopping for awhile too. On the basis of what I'm hearing in the demos, I keep on being drawn to Chris Hein's woodwinds. Anybody using them?


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## 5Lives (May 15, 2016)

kuma said:


> BWW is good for ensemble.
> CHW is good for solo.


Thanks - doesn't BWW have both solo and ensemble in their core package? It seems CHW doesn't have any ensembles, but it does have ensemble patches?


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## RiffWraith (May 15, 2016)

The SFA BML woods are fantastic. Esp. the flutes. The entire lib - including the solos - won't work in every situation (what lib does?), some artics seem to be absent (they said they were doing more, no?) and they are a bit pricey (you get what you pay for), but overall, the sound just can't be beat, the legatos work really well, and the stacs are crisp and sharp (no, not _pitch_!)

Cheers.


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## maxime77 (May 15, 2016)

To me, the Berlin Woodwinds expansions (not the main library) are the best sounding woodwinds I have ever heard. They even include breathing samples (with RR). 
http://orchestraltools.com/libraries/bww_exp_a.php
http://orchestraltools.com/libraries/bww_exp_b.php
http://orchestraltools.com/libraries/bww_exp_c.php


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## 5Lives (May 15, 2016)

Erik said:


> 5Lives, you could do some research here, just search on _woodwinds _etc.. Plenty of comparisons. There are many fine products between them. Don't overlook Westgate, besides the big names.


Thank you! Very helpful. Too bad they don't have BWW or CHW there, but great for comparison. I didn't particularly like the sound of any of the Westgate demos though. Of the ones they have up there, VSL and HOW were my favorites. VSL is very expensive though for Woodwinds 1. I have VSL SE (not plus) - Woodwinds 1 Plus doesn't have runs or as many articulations as the full version.


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## muk (May 15, 2016)

There are several options which are considered to be state of the art. Which one is the best for you depends on your sound preferences, and your workflow. Certainly worthy investments would be:


VSL Woodwinds (still up there with the best. Probably the cheapest option among the top class to get into with their SE and single instrument offerings. A wealth of articulations. Consistently sampled and programmed. Needs some mixing skills since recorded very dry. Several velocity layers. Upside: timbre changes like in real world playing. Downside: crossfade point between the layers where it sounds as suddenly two instruments were playing. Can be problematic in solo context, and has to be programmed around).
Berlin Woodwinds (two options, orchestral, or solo. Orchestral is recorded in the Teldex stage, solo in the Teldex solo booth. Solos come with Teldex IR to make them sit with the rest of their Berlin series. Solos are recorded with one single velocity layer. That means no crossfading point between velocity layers. But it also means that timbre changes are modelled with filters, and not recorded).
Spitfire woodwinds (recorded really wet, which sounds gorgeous but is less flexible as you can't take away reverb. Also, the recording is suited for orchestral purposes rather than solo. Further expansions planned).
Chris Hein Woodwinds (blank as I don't know much about them).
Hollywood Winds (don't know much about them either. Some like them fine, other think it is one of the weaker parts of the awesome Hollywood series).
8dio woodwinds (don't know much about them. Generally they have a slightly different concept than the others above. Usually there's expression baked in into the samples, dynamic arcs for example. Some find that useful and like the natural expressions. Other find it tedious because they have to program around it if they want any other expression than the ones recorded).
Sample Modelling (very different concept than any of the above. Probably the most controllable of all the offerings, which is the upside of the modelling. The downside is that some would argue that it doesn't always sound as natural as recorded samples. Personally I find their woodwinds less suited for orchestral purposes than their brass, but that's an opinion you might not share).
Cinewinds (blank as I don't know much about it).

There are several options from smaller companies and/or older libraries. Some are really useful, but they are generally less comprehensive than the ones listed above. Westgate modular series, Sonivox Symphonic Woodwinds, Northern Woodwinds Solo Oboe, Wallander Woodwinds etc. An upcoming library to watch are the woodwinds from Light and Sound. They released chamber strings recently, and stated that there are plans to record more instruments to make for a full chamber orchestra. That means it's still in the planning stage and won't be released in the foreseeable future though.


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## tack (May 15, 2016)

muk said:


> Not all instruments of the series released


Which wind instruments do you feel are missing from BML? Eb clarinet maybe?


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## muk (May 15, 2016)

tack said:


> Which wind instruments do you feel are missing from BML? Eb clarinet maybe?



Shows how little overview I have about the BML range. Corrected.


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## airflamesred (May 15, 2016)

5Lives said:


> It seems CHW doesn't have any ensembles, but it does have ensemble patches?


It doesn't have an ensemble patch but does have an ensemble slider for up to 5 players. Works reasonably well. 
Very, very versatile, air and key noises, variable runs in 7 different scales and lots to tweek.


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## 5Lives (May 15, 2016)

airflamesred said:


> It doesn't have an ensemble patch but does have an ensemble slider for up to 5 players. Works reasonably well.
> Very, very versatile, air and key noises, variable runs in 7 different scales and lots to tweek.


It looks like it from the demos - curious why more people don't mention Chris Hein samples here (compared to Spitfire, OT, CineSamples).


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## Przemek K. (May 15, 2016)

In Chris Hein Winds there is a second instrument, for example you have 2 c- flutes, 2 oboes, 2 eb-clarinets and so on. So instead of using the ensemble slider you can use both instruments and create your own section or a combination of both. As airflamesred mentioned, its very versatile.

I also have the EW HOW and Westgate flutes and VSL (old giga/kontakt). Featurewise, CHW wins hands down. But as always, choosing a library depends on so many factors (sound, featureset, your budget, what style/genre you are mostly composing and so on). IMO it is preferable to have at least 2 different libraries, because all have their strenghts and weaknesses. Besides, there is no best or"one to rule them all " library.


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## airflamesred (May 15, 2016)

5Lives said:


> It looks like it from the demos - curious why more people don't mention Chris Hein samples here (compared to Spitfire, OT, CineSamples).


I guess it is down to the tone, functionality wise all the CH stuff is top drawer.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (May 16, 2016)

5Lives said:


> It looks like it from the demos - curious why more people don't mention Chris Hein samples here (compared to Spitfire, OT, CineSamples).



because it doesn't sounds good.


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## Hanu_H (May 16, 2016)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> because it doesn't sounds good.



This doesn't sound good?



I agree that it doesn't sound orchestral out of the box but for more up front sound it works really well. I think a piece like this would be really hard to pull off with Spitfire, OT, Cinesamples, there is just too much hall in their sound. Nothing wrong with that, just different libraries for different purpose.

-Hannes


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## Gabriel Oliveira (May 16, 2016)

Hanu_H said:


> This doesn't sound good?



no :(

weird transitions and ugly vibrato.


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## chibear (May 16, 2016)

That was the clip that initially drew my attention to CH Winds.

Gabriel: vibrato is totally controlable, so the composer (in this case Chris ) needs to take responsibility for that.

Don't understand the 'weird transitions' comment. Could you elborate pls.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (May 16, 2016)

chibear said:


> Gabriel: vibrato is totally controlable, so the composer (in this case Chris ) needs to take responsibility for that



Being "totally controllable" is exactly the problem. LFO vibrato always sound fake and ugly.



chibear said:


> Don't understand the 'weird transitions' comment. Could you elborate pls.



The connection between notes doesn't sound natural... bad scripting maybe? CH has true legato?


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## Rodney Money (May 16, 2016)

5Lives said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I have CineWinds Core + Pro, but the articulations are pretty limited and they still have some background noise even after the latest update.
> 
> ...


Hello my friend, here's how CineWinds and Berlin Woodwinds sound playing the same line. I used Flute Solo in CW and BW Flute Solo 1 from their regular library https://app.box.com/s/leun6wbkthsik97n2y8ixe2slrq6ctzi


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## 5Lives (May 16, 2016)

Gabriel - what woodwind library do you prefer?


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## 5Lives (May 16, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Hello my friend, here's how CineWinds and Berlin Woodwinds sound playing the same line. I used Flute Solo in CW and BW Flute Solo 1 from their regular library https://app.box.com/s/leun6wbkthsik97n2y8ixe2slrq6ctzi


Thank you! I'm guessing CW is first and BWW is second?


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## Rodney Money (May 16, 2016)

5Lives said:


> Thank you! I'm guessing CW is first and BWW is second?


Yes, that is correct, I should've stated that, lol. Berlin and CW mixes really well also. Here is Berlin's Bassoon solo 1 mixed with CineWinds' Bass Clarinet solo playing the same line: https://app.box.com/s/slyivhlac53n04555kftq4dzlqpyo6bp


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## 5Lives (May 16, 2016)

Your example highlights something I dislike with CineWinds - that distracting noise, almost like a hiss or white noise, in the notes, especially on vibrato. BWW doesn't have as much of it and where it does, it is less grating.


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## Rodney Money (May 16, 2016)

5Lives said:


> Your example highlights something I dislike with CineWinds - that distracting noise, almost like a hiss or white noise, in the notes, especially on vibrato. BWW doesn't have as much of it and where it does, it is less grating.


Probably hearing the Sony studio?


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## Hanu_H (May 16, 2016)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> Being "totally controllable" is exactly the problem. LFO vibrato always sound fake and ugly.


CH Winds also have recorded vibrato, I normally use that instead of LFO.



Gabriel Oliveira said:


> The connection between notes doesn't sound natural... bad scripting maybe? CH has true legato?


Yes there is true legato and scripted legato, you can choose what you like better. This demo was done before the new update which made the legato and dynamics a lot better.

-Hannes


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## SirKen (May 16, 2016)

While not out yet, the recently announced Woodwinds libraries from Soundiron/NI and Sonokinetics are what I am curiously waiting for.


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## Rodney Money (May 16, 2016)

SirKen said:


> While not out yet, the recently announced Woodwinds libraries from Soundiron/NI and Sonokinetics are what I am curiously waiting for.


Yes I am looking forward to see how their saxophones sound.


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## Erik (May 16, 2016)

Hi Rodney,
Nice meeting again! Herewith the http://www.erikotte.nl/temp/RodneyFlute.mp3 (Westgate) remake of your example. 

BTW I didn't like the CW version so much because of the rather poor and unreal legato, BWW is much better in that respect. Hope you don't mind.


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## Rodney Money (May 16, 2016)

Erik said:


> Hi Rodney,
> Nice meeting again! Herewith the http://www.erikotte.nl/temp/RodneyFlute.mp3 (Westgate) remake of your example.
> 
> BTW I didn't like the CW version so much because of the rather poor and unreal legato, BWW is much better in that respect. Hope you don't mind.


I never mind, my friend, always a pleasure!


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## RRBE Sound (Jun 22, 2016)

Great thread!  

I am looking for a great woodwind library - and at this point it seams that CineSamples have a sale, so you can get CineWinds Core for just $249, this seams like a reasonable price for a great sounding library? 

This would be my first woodwind library, - a great start?


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## passsacaglia (Jun 22, 2016)

RRBE Sound said:


> Great thread!
> 
> I am looking for a great woodwind library - and at this point it seams that CineSamples have a sale, so you can get CineWinds Core for just $249, this seams like a reasonable price for a great sounding library?
> 
> This would be my first woodwind library, - a great start?


I only have VSL SE1 and it's really good. I do mind the Steinberg key but that's maybe because I only have my maxbook air and no usb hub. 
But I think that CW is a really really good start among the top. And if u need anything else just add it. 
My additions would be the Westgate solo/ensemble instruments as long as u have full kontakt! There are some woodwind comparison videos on youtube, to me...Westgate is the "best" sounding ones ) good luck R!


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## RRBE Sound (Jun 22, 2016)

passsacaglia said:


> I only have VSL SE1 and it's really good. I do mind the Steinberg key but that's maybe because I only have my maxbook air and no usb hub.
> But I think that CW is a really really good start among the top. And if u need anything else just add it.
> My additions would be the Westgate solo/ensemble instruments as long as u have full kontakt! There are some woodwind comparison videos on youtube, to me...Westgate is the "best" sounding ones ) good luck R!



Thank you! - Ahh, Westgate, seams like a great addition to a whole library.


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## 5Lives (Jun 22, 2016)

I have CineWinds (Core and Pro) and while they're great, I just got Berlin Woodwinds and I would highly recommend people save their money and just get that. They are fantastic, deeply sampled, and Capsule is a great interface.


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## Fleer (Jun 22, 2016)

Have to say that the infamous Hollywood Woodwinds from EastWest has been greatly improved by Nick Phoenix. Some sweet instruments in there, particularly those flutes, if you get the Diamond edition and close mics. All-in-all, the full Hollywood Orchestra for $599 is an amazing bargain.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 22, 2016)

Fleer said:


> Have to say that the infamous Hollywood Woodwinds from EastWest has been greatly improved by Nick Phoenix. Some sweet instruments in there, particularly those flutes, if you get the Diamond edition and close mics. All-in-all, the full Hollywood Orchestra for $599 is an amazing bargain.




Agreed, but in all honesty the oboe and english horn are my least favorite sounding instruments in the entire Hollywood series.


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## passsacaglia (Jun 22, 2016)

yeah, wasn't it someone recently mentioning that they actually preferred the EWQLSO woods over HWW? 
also do mind this thread about the BWW, I think it's a good one but. I'd put my money on the Cinewoods core sale, 249 is really good for everything you get!
ps R, just check the specs some Cinesamples libraries are a little cpu and ram taxing )


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## RRBE Sound (Jun 22, 2016)

5Lives said:


> I have CineWinds (Core and Pro) and while they're great, I just got Berlin Woodwinds and I would highly recommend people save their money and just get that. They are fantastic, deeply sampled, and Capsule is a great interface.



Great! - I do not have any of Orchestral Tools products. But I am a huge fan. - Although I think, as a ''starter'' library, the CineWinds seams fine, price vice. :D

Passacaglia, Thank you!! - Yes, I have seen the looooong loading times.. However, I run SSD and just enough ram . :D


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## reddognoyz (Jun 22, 2016)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> because it doesn't sounds good.



Depends on what you need.


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## Fleer (Jun 22, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Agreed, but in all honesty the oboe and english horn are my least favorite sounding instruments in the entire Hollywood series.


True, here's hoping they resample that oboe, since I love using the instrument. As for those flutes, since I play the flute (traversière) myself, I'm in complete awe. No other library achieves such wonderful flute sounds ITB. And I would also like to use this opportunity to commend EW support, particularly Joey Medina. Highly professional. Kudos indeed.


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## 5Lives (Jun 22, 2016)

I tried HOW from EastWest and would not recommend it compared to CineWinds or BWW. My 2 cents. However, their Composer Cloud is a cheap way to try their stuff out.


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## Jackles (Jun 22, 2016)

About EW Hollywood Woodwinds, it sounds great, but is so unconsistent. Of all the libs I had my hands on, it's the best sounding (the sound is clean, big, not too wet), but the programming is really bad for most of the (legato) patches.

The 2nd flute is wonderful and is what the whole lib should have been like, if it would had been done properly. 
Same thing for the bassoon, the transitions feel so natural, and the tone is deep and smooth.

But the rest of the lib, unfortunately, isn't as good.

The oboe is such a disappointment, it sounds good, but the legato transitions are way too loud, and even if you lower them (a lot) you still feel the transitions.
The clarinet almost fell like there were literally no legato transitions at all. It fells too flat, no life, too synthy. Likewise for the rest of the instruments.

It may sounds like a hard review, but I'm comparing it with EW Hollywood Strings, witch is, so far, the best simulation of a real instrument for me.

It's still a very usable library for a lot of situations. I'd go for the Berlin Expension B for the more lyrical part of the solos though. It does blend pretty well IMHO.

Like said earlier, the Composer Cloud is a nice and cheap way of trying all their libs before buying.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 22, 2016)

Jackles said:


> About EW Hollywood Woodwinds, it sounds great, but is so unconsistent. Of all the libs I had my hands on, it's the best sounding (the sound is clean, big, not too wet), but the programming is really bad for most of the (legato) patches.
> 
> The 2nd flute is wonderful and is what the whole lib should have been like, if it would had been done properly.
> Same thing for the bassoon, the transitions feel so natural, and the tone is deep and smooth.
> ...



I could not say this when I was working for EW, but that is pretty much my take on it as well, although i disagree about the clarinet, which i like.

The best argument for HOW, and the reason i still use it a fair amount in bigger compositions., is that it blends well with the rest of the Hollywood series.


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## Lawson. (Jun 22, 2016)

RRBE Sound said:


> Great! - I do not have any of Orchestral Tools products. But I am a huge fan. - Although I think, as a ''starter'' library, the CineWinds seams fine, price vice. :D
> 
> Passacaglia, Thank you!! - Yes, I have seen the looooong loading times.. However, I run SSD and just enough ram . :D



I would just save money in the long-run and go for BWW. Absolutely fantastic stuff.

[Note: I have received free products from Orchestral Tools]


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## Leeward (Jun 22, 2016)

I can't imagine using anything else than BWW. The 1st clarinet in particular has a lovely soft emotional tone in the lower dynamics. I even wish it could go lower!


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## Fleer (Jun 22, 2016)

That BWW costs as much as the entire EW Hollywood Orchestra, including Strings, Brass, Percussion and also Woodwinds. No-brainer for me.


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## chrysshawk (Jun 22, 2016)

Jackles said:


> About EW Hollywood Woodwinds, it sounds great, but is so unconsistent. Of all the libs I had my hands on, it's the best sounding (the sound is clean, big, not too wet), but the programming is really bad for most of the (legato) patches.
> 
> The 2nd flute is wonderful and is what the whole lib should have been like, if it would had been done properly.
> Same thing for the bassoon, the transitions feel so natural, and the tone is deep and smooth.
> ...



Wow. This is pretty much the reflection I have on the Spitfire woods. I think Spitfire works well in ensemble settings, but far prefer to use Berlin WW for more exposed woodwinds dor the exact reasons you mention about HOW.


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## RRBE Sound (Jun 22, 2016)

Lawson. said:


> I would just save money in the long-run and go for BWW. Absolutely fantastic stuff.
> 
> [Note: I have received free products from Orchestral Tools]



How do you mean by free products? To review?


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## rottoy (Jun 22, 2016)

chrysshawk said:


> Wow. This is pretty much the reflection I have on the Spitfire woods. I think Spitfire works well in ensemble settings, but far prefer to use Berlin WW for more exposed woodwinds dor the exact reasons you mention about HOW.


As far as I can recall, at least the Spitfire Flute Consort has got some serious tuning issues.


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## Jackles (Jun 22, 2016)

chrysshawk said:


> Wow. This is pretty much the reflection I have on the Spitfire woods. I think Spitfire works well in ensemble settings, but far prefer to use Berlin WW for more exposed woodwinds dor the exact reasons you mention about HOW.



Just to make it clear, I was referring to the Expension B library. The main library is, to my taste, actually globally inferior to Hollywood Woodwinds. Like every library it has it pros and cons, but I find the legato transitions and the sound (compare to HOW) a little weaker. But it really is subjective at this point.

The Expension B, offers a different approach, again with its own pros and cons. The legato transitions are gorgeous, this lib has been tailored to fit this very complexe role that are the lyrical solos. It works in very particular way though, it has only one dynamic. They relied on the way the player would interpret a solo part, so you do have access to some sort of dynamic via modweel, but the main interpretation tool is the velocity. 
I was doubtful at first, but it works great for the solo parts. There is some work to make it sit beside HOW, but once it's done, it works great (to my ears at least).


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## Lawson. (Jun 22, 2016)

RRBE Sound said:


> How do you mean by free products? To review?



Yes.


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## 5Lives (Jun 22, 2016)

The nice thing about BWW is the playability and setup thanks to Capsule, which HOW and Play don't offer (nor do many libraries). Pay once and get something great - a lesson I've learned over time.


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## Fleer (Jun 22, 2016)

Took you five lives


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## tack (Jun 22, 2016)

So I just picked up BWW (having already owned Exp B). I've been meaning to for some time now anyway.

There's a lot here and it'll take me a couple evenings to familiarize myself, but I will say that at least for the legato patch, BML winds hold their own quite well, in tone and character (especially in the legato transitions themselves), and playability. The room difference is really apparent -- rather more than I expected -- and what can I say, I still like Air Lyndhurst for its warmth.

But until BML volume 2 winds are released, which I personally expect some time around 2025, for most of the instruments, flutes and piccolo notwithstanding, there's no competition with BWW on the selection of articulations. Although BML tends to have more dynamic layers, and the softest dynamic is pp, and I have a soft spot (so to speak) for the these quieter dynamics.

Some part of me was expecting BWW to supplant the BML winds based on their reputation, but I don't think that will be the case. Time and experimentation will tell, but at first blush, BML is standing up fairly well and both will find a proper home in my template.


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## nas (Jun 22, 2016)

From the demos I've heard, BWW instruments do sound very lyrical and expressive, but I did notice some phasing and a little overlap when the dynamic layers crossfade. I read in another thread that this issue was going to be addressed.

Has this been improved?


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## noxtenebrae17 (Jun 23, 2016)

Here's my two cents. I own VSL, all the Spitfire BML Woods, Berlin Woodwinds, Cinewinds, and EWQLSO:

Best Piccolo: Tied between Spitfire and BWW
Best Solo Flute: VSL (BWW wins for shorts)
Best Solo Oboe: VSL (Spitfire wins for shorts)
Best Solo English Horn: Spitfire BML
Best Solo Bassoon: Spitfire BML <- my favorite BML instrument
Best Solo Clarinet: VSL (Spitfire wins for shorts & louder passages)
Best Low Winds (Contrabassoon, bass flute, alto flute, bass clarinet): Spitfire BML

Best Ensemble Flutes: Tied between Spitfire and BWW
Best Ensemble Oboes: Spitfire BML
Best Ensemble Clarinets: Spitfire BML
Best Ensemble Bassoons: Spitfire BML

Best runs overall: BWW
Best legato overall: VSL and Spitfire (certain instruments are strong and weak in each)
Best shorts overall: Spitfire - minus the flutes
Best overall sound quality: Spitfire (those outrigger mics are just so clear and wonderful)

Spitfire comes close to winning a lot of these categories, but has a few downfalls: 1: Solo Flute legato is pretty nasty. I can never get a good sound out of it. 2: Solo Oboe legato is unrefined with lots of jumpy/unclean transitions. 3: No runs patches at all. They are nimble, but they don't do realistic runs like BWW. 4: Flute shorts are okay at lower dynamics, but too overblown at louder ones.

I like BWW, but it doesn't offer a lot of choice in microphones which makes it harder to mix with Spitfire's selections (I prefer the large sound of AIR over Teldex). It's legato also isn't quite as expressive or pronounced as either Spitfire or VSL.

8Dio's Claire Flute & Clarinet have been on my watchlist for awhile but just haven't pulled the trigger. Their ARC approach is a bit too exaggerated for my taste but you can ignore those artics.


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## prodigalson (Jun 23, 2016)

Don't forget the BML Bass Clarinet is one of the most beautiful, resonant sampled instruments I've ever heard. The low winds seem to especially benefit from the hall at AIR.

In fact the only BML wind I don't get along with at all is the clarinet. The legato needs to be completely redone. I usually end up not using the transitions at all and getting creative with CC1. In addition, while its tone is beautiful in the lower dynamics it gets honky fast so I usually add 6db and keep the mod wheel really low


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## tack (Jun 23, 2016)

+1 for the BML Bass Clarinet (which strangely enough is in BML Low Winds, not Low Reeds). When I first played it, I remember actually saying aloud (to myself) "wow, sexy."


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## Casey Edwards (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is a demo I did featuring the Spitfire woodwinds and just a splash of the SF Orchestral Grand Piano. I hadn't heard a demo using the woodwinds as the main feature so I decided to have a bit of fun during the holidays this past season.



I also took this demo and bounced out all the mics separately for anyone who wanted to explore what the mic positions are like: https://www.dropbox.com/s/71jukuglyh2sy4a/Darkened_Whimsy_Mic_Stems.zip?dl=0


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## noxtenebrae17 (Jun 24, 2016)

prodigalson said:


> Don't forget the BML Bass Clarinet is one of the most beautiful, resonant sampled instruments I've ever heard. The low winds seem to especially benefit from the hall at AIR.
> 
> In fact the only BML wind I don't get along with at all is the clarinet. The legato needs to be completely redone. I usually end up not using the transitions at all and getting creative with CC1. In addition, while its tone is beautiful in the lower dynamics it gets honky fast so I usually add 6db and keep the mod wheel really low



Agreed. That BML bass clarinet is beautiful. And I agree with your points on the solo clarinet as well. The louder dynamics work well for a piercing sound, but it is completely useless for softer passages. Clarinet is a touchy instrument to sample since a good clarinetist can change the timbre of the sound at most dynamics. That's why the VSL Clarinet is so nice. They sampled the lyrical side of things.

I have more trouble with the solo flute. I can't really work with it. The solo oboe is not as bad, but still has a bunch of legato transition issues (which is really too bad because the tone is wonderful).

I'm not holding my breath for an update on these instruments as Spitfire seems to be more interested in releasing new products than updating old ones these days. I'm also not convinced we're going to see Volume 2 of BML anytime soon (which is really too bad).


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## midiman (Jun 25, 2016)

For me, VSL woodwinds are still good. Also 8dio Claire woodwinds are excellent.


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## BigImpactSound (Jun 26, 2016)

VSL is good, but not easy to mix.
Cinesampes woodwinds can be a bit limited.
Hollywood woodwinds: some of the patches are very good, others so so..
I'm curious about the Berlin Woodwinds...


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## JGRaynaud (Jun 26, 2016)

All the libraries have their qualities but I have to admit that Orchestral Tools products are awesome.

However, I noticed that you never mentioned the Strezov Sampling Woodwinds modules. I really like them and use them a lot.. It's not exactly like the others libraries because it's sampled "a2" (there is two modules : 2 flutes and 2 bassoons) but these products are really good, even if you can't use only these modules for a complete woodwinds section.
You need some skills in mixing because like VSL products it's recorded dry. 

If you want an example I recently made a demo for Strezov Sampling for these two woodwinds modules because I wanted to show what is possible to do with them.


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## rottoy (Jun 26, 2016)

Now that Alex Wallbank has kicked off his Cinematic Studio series, I'm really keen to see what he has in store for winds!


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## ysnyvz (Jun 26, 2016)

Parsifal666 said:


> I hope no one takes this person's advice when it comes to that.


Wait... Did EW give Jay's job to you?


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## 5Lives (Jun 26, 2016)

Definitely no shortage of options these days. However, the price of entry can be rather high and mistakes tend to be costly. That's why this forum and the opinions (no matter what they might be) provided by the members are so valuable! They certainly have been for me. My recommendation is start with one thing based on the demos and walkthrough videos and learn it well. Over time, you will learn how to evaluate the demos and features of other libraries much better - and ask the right questions before you make additional purchases.


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## Parsifal666 (Jun 26, 2016)

ysnyvz said:


> Wait... Did EW give Jay's job to you?



How did you guess?


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## willbedford (Jun 26, 2016)

noxtenebrae17 said:


> Best Solo Clarinet: VSL (Spitfire wins for shorts & louder passages)


I'd say Embertone definitely beats the VSL clarinet.


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## Thorsten Meyer (Jun 27, 2016)

Since cinematic studio strings came out I am really looking forward to Cinematic Studio Woods


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## ScarletJerry (Jun 28, 2016)

So on the low end, does anyone own the Hephaestus clarinet? http://www.sampleism.com/hephaestussounds/k5clarinet

It's about $10, and I really can't afford the Embertone clarinet or the 8Dio version. VSL SE sounds like it would be awesome, but I refuse to buy anything that requires an iLok.

-Scarlet Jerry


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## Thorsten Meyer (Jul 4, 2016)

I was between Cinewinds Core and Pro or BWW, it as a long back and forth. At the end I compared the non-ethnic instruments that I would get in a Cinewinds bundle vs BWW exp B. I did at the end buy BWW Exp B and Cinewinds Pro.


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## Parsifal666 (Jul 8, 2016)

I adore the Hollywood bass clarinet and used it to great effect in my opera. I'll hopefully be posting examples soon.


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## Mundano (Jul 8, 2016)

This thread got so hot!  Could someone explain to me please

why to master Woodwinds instruments sampling means to be "the cream of the cream"
Why Native Instruments Woodwinds had a shy release and isn't commented nor only one time here
Why so big expectation for Sonokinetic multisampled Woodwinds library?


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Jul 8, 2016)

Mundano said:


> Why Native Instruments Woodwinds had a shy release and isn't commented nor only one time here



because it sounds bad


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## Ashermusic (Jul 8, 2016)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> because it sounds bad




I disagree. I just wrote a largely positive review that i will let people know when it is posted.


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## Vovique (Jul 8, 2016)

Mundano said:


> Why so big expectation for Sonokinetic multisampled Woodwinds library?


It's their first woodwinds sampling attempt, which, based on the quality of Sonokinetic orchestral phrase libraries, will have a beautiful sound to it for sure. If the scripting is on par, they'll have a top shot woodwinds library.


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## Parsifal666 (Jul 9, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I disagree. I just wrote a largely positive review that i will let people know when it is posted.



Native instruments woodwinds...that is kind of vague for me. Do you mean the factory instruments?

I'm a little lost here, but now I'm also interested.

You and I have opposing viewpoints on East West Hollywood's English Horn, but I use that and the rest of their woodwinds (plus the Albions) and love them both a lot. Though I'm probably driving people crazy by mentioning EW so much


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## rottoy (Jul 9, 2016)

This is what Jay is referring to. https://www.native-instruments.com/...tic/symphony-series-woodwind/symphony-series/


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## Parsifal666 (Jul 9, 2016)

rottoy said:


> This is what Jay is referring to. https://www.native-instruments.com/...tic/symphony-series-woodwind/symphony-series/



Thank you! Ohhhh, this looks interesting. I almost thought of Heavyocity when I saw the gui. Well now I'm really curious, hoping to check out Jay's review.


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## Mundano (Jul 14, 2016)

Sonokinetic?


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## Mundano (Jul 19, 2016)

and what about Chris Hein Woodwinds? http://www.chrishein.net/web/CH-Winds_Overview.html

who is winning now?

OT Berlin WW
Spitfire BML WW
Sonokinetic WWE
Chris Hein WW
NI WW
CineWinds
VSL
8DIO Claire
which else?


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## chibear (Jul 19, 2016)

Mundano said:


> and what about Chris Hein Woodwinds? http://www.chrishein.net/web/CH-Winds_Overview.html



This thread provided an amazing overview of what's available. Each Library had obvious strengths (and weaknesses) with for me no one really standing out way above the others. I seem to constantly not be running with the pack and here is no different. For me, because of the incredible automation flexibility and possibilities therein, next time I have some time to learn a new library, I'm probably going to pick up Chris' woodwinds. (unless I find something _really_ better in the meantime  )


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## Tony Marescalco (Jul 10, 2018)

Rodney Money said:


> Hello my friend, here's how CineWinds and Berlin Woodwinds sound playing the same line. I used Flute Solo in CW and BW Flute Solo 1 from their regular library https://app.box.com/s/leun6wbkthsik97n2y8ixe2slrq6ctzi



Man did you put reverb only in Berlin Woodwinds (or more in it)? It sounds so good but wet


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## sostenuto (Jul 10, 2018)

Vovique said:


> It's their first woodwinds sampling attempt, which, based on the quality of Sonokinetic orchestral phrase libraries, will have a beautiful sound to it for sure. If the scripting is on par, they'll have a top shot woodwinds library.



THX for 'reminder' !!!  Was going thru personal toolbox, and totally spaced Sonokinetic Woodwinds Ensemble ….
Oldheimers I guess ….... combined with excessive GAS attacks


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## Rodney Money (Jul 10, 2018)

Tony Marescalco said:


> Man did you put reverb only in Berlin Woodwinds (or more in it)? It sounds so good but wet


Same reverb on both, but with the default mics on both libraries, Berlin sound is more in the orchestra where CineWinds is more Lord of the Rings solo flute when the hobbits return to the shire after their adventure.


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## Consona (Jul 11, 2018)

Fluffy audio woodwinds? I have only the flute, but it's really agile, has a great legato, multiple mic positions, nice amount of articulations, incredibly customisable options how to use it, very cleanly recorded samples. Don't know how good are the other instruments, but if the quality is the same, it would be a really solid choice.


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## markleake (Jul 11, 2018)

I always say this, but the Fluffy Audio clarinet is fantastic too! A most wonderful tone, which is hard to get with sampled clarinets.


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## markleake (Jul 11, 2018)

@sostenuto. I have the Sonokinetic Woods Ensemble. They are good (albeit with a bit of a poor noise floor sometimes and a few inconsistencies), but I'd recommend getting good solo instruments first before ensembles.

Berlin or Spitfire or CH or VSL or Cinesamples. They are different, have different strengths, and I think some are better value than others. But they're all gonna be good libraries and work well.


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## robgb (Jul 11, 2018)

There is no best. There's what you like and what you don't.


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## Leon Portelance (Jul 11, 2018)

Since I got Berlin Woodwinds Legacy, Revive and Expansion A_, B & C, I don’t have any desire to use anything else. Although I do add in some Embertone Woodwinds and an Armenian Dudak._


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## Quasar (Jul 13, 2018)

markleake said:


> I always say this, but the Fluffy Audio clarinet is fantastic too! A most wonderful tone, which is hard to get with sampled clarinets.


Just got a letter saying Fluffy Audio is having a sale.

Do you (or anyone) think that getting Fluffy's Solo Woodwinds bundle would be redundant if one already has Chris Hein Winds?


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## sostenuto (Jul 13, 2018)

markleake said:


> @sostenuto. I have the Sonokinetic Woods Ensemble. They are good (albeit with a bit of a poor noise floor sometimes and a few inconsistencies), but I'd recommend getting good solo instruments first before ensembles.
> 
> Berlin or Spitfire or CH or VSL or Cinesamples. They are different, have different strengths, and I think some are better value than others. But they're all gonna be good libraries and work well.



Apologies for 'tedious' inquiry …… Cinesamples is choice from your list due to earlier edu pricing approval.
*BUT* FluffyAudio just promo'd Solo Woodwinds Complete Bundle at $199.. Beyond their Clarinets, do the other WW(s) hold up well ?


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## markleake (Jul 13, 2018)

@Quasar. I don't have Chris Hein Winds, so I can't give any comparison there. It seems to me Fluffy's approach is different though to Hein's... the Fluffy instruments are recorded I think with a bit more expression built in. The Hein instruments may have less of that, but be a bit more versatile. At least the Fluffy clarinet is biased in this way anyway - the benefit is you get a more natural tone and playability, but there are downsides to it also, mainly being that a particular line you have in your head you may not be able to get the instrument to do it perfectly, or at least as easily, because it wants to do its own thing a bit. The Fluffy interface is fantastic: it is very playable out of the box, but also has a lot of tweakability and control. It's an excellent GUI.

The clarinet is the only instrument I have of the Fluffy range. To my ears it's the best instrument in the range going by all the tracks I've heard (and the best clarinet that I personally have heard sampled, in my opinion, in terms of tone!). I am biased though, having been a (fairly casual) clarinet player all my life. The flute comes highly recommend from other folk, so I'm fairly confident it will have the same wonderful qualities also. I've heard less about the other two instruments.


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## markleake (Jul 13, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> Apologies for 'tedious' inquiry …… Cinesamples is choice from your list due to earlier edu pricing approval.
> *BUT* FluffyAudio just promo'd Solo Woodwinds Complete Bundle at $199.. Beyond their Clarinets, do the other WW(s) hold up well ?


Sorry I can't answer @sostenuto. See my above post... I only have the clarient instrument so far. I do know the flute is very well regarded also, but don't know much about the other 2 instruments.

Suffice to say though, I have eyed getting the others for a while, so maybe now is the time?! 

Here's something I did a while ago with the clarinet. From memory this is just using the legato articulation only, with me playing the line into the track ad-hoc with no tweaks afterwards. It is capable of some amazingly expressive playing with little effort!


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