# Moving effortlessly through different keys?



## Resoded (Jan 4, 2013)

I'm in awe when listening to the master composers, they move between different keys in a way that sounds so natural. It makes me realize how locked I am in the way I write, always staying in the same key. I'd like to expand my horizons a bit here.

Do you guys have any tips on how to learn the basics of this? I have studied some music theory but clearly not enough.

Even though "study music theory" is great advice, I'm looking for more specific advice here.


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## TheWillardofOZ (Jan 4, 2013)

The circle of fifths will save the world.


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## reddognoyz (Jan 4, 2013)

I took Steven Smalley's two day orchestration seminar. At the end of it I asked him if he could add any harmonic ideas for film scoring. He said "oh, yes, move your chords in thirds" So I started playing with that simplest of ideas and I discovered a whole wealth of film scoring devices. If you are are used to writing enharmonic music try moving your chord centers around with good voice leading/melodies, and the most counter intuitive chord progressions you can think of.


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## dannthr (Jan 4, 2013)

Circle of Fifths and Pivot Chords and the will and guts to commit fully to the change.

That's been my experience, at least.


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## MacQ (Jan 4, 2013)

dannthr @ Fri Jan 04 said:


> Circle of Fifths and Pivot Chords and the will and guts to commit fully to the change.
> 
> That's been my experience, at least.



This. Especially the guts part. Not every key-change can or should be gracefully invisible.

Sometimes it's fun to just slam it into gear without the clutch. It can be a great dramatic device.


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## ed buller (Jan 4, 2013)

do you mean changing keys ? if so there're so many ways to do it. Are there particular compositions you like the sound of ? Film music has a quite different flavour I find to concert music ( i mean the classics ) give us an example 

e


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## impressions (Jan 4, 2013)

1.mimicking usually explains alot of things.
try and play bach's well tempered piano. tons of beautiful modulations.
2. experiment. usually the melody that goes in different keys has a particular "Catch" to it as opposed to melodies that stay in one key. try to find that "catch".

3. improvise chords that go to different keys. usually chord changes deliver different emotions, go through your emotions and try to express them through different chords, it might lead to different keys if your loyal enough to what you hear in your mind.


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## Resoded (Jan 4, 2013)

TheWillardofOZ @ 4th January 2013 said:


> The circle of fifths will save the world.



Ah, I had forgotten all about that. Thanks, will have to read up on this!



reddognoyz @ 4th January 2013 said:


> I took Steven Smalley's two day orchestration seminar. At the end of it I asked him if he could add any harmonic ideas for film scoring. He said "oh, yes, move your chords in thirds" So I started playing with that simplest of ideas and I discovered a whole wealth of film scoring devices. If you are are used to writing enharmonic music try moving your chord centers around with good voice leading/melodies, and the most counter intuitive chord progressions you can think of.



Interesting! I've always written music by ear and haven't given a damn about the actual chords, but I've started to think more about it nowadays. I find it to be the next step to take composing to another level. Will definitely look into this.



dannthr @ 4th January 2013 said:


> Circle of Fifths and Pivot Chords and the will and guts to commit fully to the change.
> 
> That's been my experience, at least.



Indeed, it's so easy to remain within the comfort zone. I'd like to think of it as adding rather than changing.



ed buller @ 4th January 2013 said:


> do you mean changing keys ? if so there're so many ways to do it. Are there particular compositions you like the sound of ? Film music has a quite different flavour I find to concert music ( i mean the classics ) give us an example
> 
> e



Yeah. Not really, if I remember correctly Howard Shore does this a bit in the LOTR soundtrack though. I think that classical music can be overly complex at times so I'm looking for tools that sounds simple but really aren't, if that makes any sense.



impressions @ 4th January 2013 said:


> 1.mimicking usually explains alot of things.
> try and play bach's well tempered piano. tons of beautiful modulations.
> 2. experiment. usually the melody that goes in different keys has a particular "Catch" to it as opposed to melodies that stay in one key. try to find that "catch".
> 
> 3. improvise chords that go to different keys. usually chord changes deliver different emotions, go through your emotions and try to express them through different chords, it might lead to different keys if your loyal enough to what you hear in your mind.



Great tips, thanks!


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## KEnK (Jan 4, 2013)

If you like Jazz at all learn the harmonic language and system of that music.

We're always using chords subs, modulations, key changes etc.
All that stuff is in most every standard.

It's a very complete language.
And it translates well to modern classical.

It's no exaggeration to say that every decent jazz player 
has to know the same amount of theory as a classical composer.

k


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## Per Lichtman (Jan 4, 2013)

Since you mentioned that you mainly compose by ear, I'm curious if you've tried experimenting with voice-leading much?

People mentioned both the circle of fifths and to a lesser-extent the third-relation modulation that became more popular around Beethoven. But what a lot of what it comes down to is this. If you are passing through key quickly (as opposed to stopping to establish them) notice that you only need to change one note at a time to enter a new key.

So if you do runs or transitions or otherwise to move from one section to another, simply set them up to modify that one note.

If you are moving from the root to the dominant (C to G for instance) then just introduce the F# note in the melody to get into G and mess with the chords beneath it (G Major when you hit the G is the obvious option). Then you can hit D by hitting the C#. So that's movement through the circle of fifths. If you listen to the first movement of most symphonies, you can see this type of thing repeatedly demonstrated in the so-called "development" section, if you like studying scores.

But the point I was trying to make is that you often lead from one key to another by going from one note to an adjacent note. I often prefer to do this in the melody but the same principal applies to the voice of a chord - look at where the voice can go next.

If you look at some of the Bach pieces, you'll see repeated arpeggiated chords where only one note of the chord is being changed at a time. That's voice-leading in action, so try experimenting with copying that approach to find harmonic progressions: playing arpeggiated chords, changing one key at a time to find interesting ones instead of worrying about staying in key.

Good luck!


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## mducharme (Jan 4, 2013)

In my experience, I have found that classical techniques of modulation do not necessarily help much. Many of them revolve around the use and/or reinterpretation of either the dominant seventh chord or the diminished seventh chord. While they obviously work, it is hard to make them fit with a modern harmonic language, they tend to sound quite old fashioned. You can sometimes sneak the dominant seventh in, however, by introducing the seventh in passing motion.

Chromatic mediants (as previously mentioned) are one means of avoiding this issue, but their use is not systemized -- you basically use them "by ear". You can also use plagal resolutions to modulate, like Rimsky Korsakov does in sequence in Scheherazade.

Beethoven sometimes used very simple means to modulate - he would often go down to just one note, and suddenly, and brusquely, use that one note as a common tone to modulate somewhere completely unexpected.

The sense of modulation is heightened by the factors of phrasing and rhythm, not only harmony and scale. Doing an effective modulation that does not rely on classical dominant seventh or diminished seventh techniques often relies heavily on the combination of phrasing/rhythm/scale/harmonic-progression to drive the modulation home.


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## Per Lichtman (Jan 4, 2013)

mducharme @ Fri Jan 04 said:


> Chromatic mediants (as previously mentioned) are one means of avoiding this issue, but their use is not systemized -- you basically use them "by ear". You can also use plagal resolutions to modulate, like Rimsky Korsakov does in sequence in Scheherazade.
> 
> Beethoven sometimes used very simple means to modulate - he would often go down to just one note, and suddenly, and brusquely, use that one note as a common tone to modulate somewhere completely unexpected.



Very well put. Yes, finding interesting common tone modulations is more widely applicable to modern harmonic languages than "the chart of normal chord progressions" and things of that nature.

I would just like to re-empahsize that you can really do a lot of it by looking at the melody first, targeting keys with it, etc. without writing the chords at first. Once you hit those targets and get a trajectory with the melody (or melodies) you may find the harmonies begin to suggest themselves more clearly. Of course, you can do it the other way around, too.

One thing I find fun is to not start with a clearly defined harmony, but rather with a varied cluster and to start to pull various chords out of that cluster to gradually establish a scale or key.


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## ed buller (Jan 5, 2013)

mducharme @ Fri Jan 04 said:


> In my experience, I have found that classical techniques of modulation do not necessarily help much. Many of them revolve around the use and/or reinterpretation of either the dominant seventh chord or the diminished seventh chord. While they obviously work, it is hard to make them fit with a modern harmonic language, they tend to sound quite old fashioned. You can sometimes sneak the dominant seventh in, however, by introducing the seventh in passing motion.
> 
> Chromatic mediants (as previously mentioned) are one means of avoiding this issue, but their use is not systemized -- you basically use them "by ear". You can also use plagal resolutions to modulate, like Rimsky Korsakov does in sequence in Scheherazade.
> .



So true. Film music rarely uses perfect cadences for the simple reason we know what's coming next.

Where in Scheherazade are you referring to ? The first movement ? I love that piece . His book on Harmony is excellent BTW.

e


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## gsilbers (Jan 5, 2013)

reddognoyz @ Fri Jan 04 said:


> I took Steven Smalley's two day orchestration seminar. At the end of it I asked him if he could add any harmonic ideas for film scoring. He said "oh, yes, move your chords in thirds" So I started playing with that simplest of ideas and I discovered a whole wealth of film scoring devices. If you are are used to writing enharmonic music try moving your chord centers around with good voice leading/melodies, and the most counter intuitive chord progressions you can think of.



True.

That was so interesting .

Just move chords by 3rds. I was so stuck in how music theory should be that this was a surprise ..

A lot of film score we analyzed had this. Very simple melodies and chords moved in3rds. No reason , except what was on screen.

Transitions to different key in 3rds in films core is easy since the video is king.


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## José Herring (Jan 5, 2013)

Fully understanding why the scales became "well tempered". Understanding what chords belong to which keys.

Movement in 3rds is useful. But merely too simplistic of a device and becomes hackneyed in a very short amount of time and truly only works in minor keys as minor keys are built around the mediant relationship to its relative major.


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## ed buller (Jan 5, 2013)

scott smalley is referring to chromatic mediants...not just moving in thirds. And these work very well in major. ( Jerry Goldmsith, James Horner, John Williams, James Newton Howard )True it has become a bit of a cliche but when you add moving in semitones and tritones that gives you a lot of possibilities .

e


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## Per Lichtman (Jan 5, 2013)

Here's something else that might be helpful.

Look at the openings to two sci-fi score: Blade Runner and the game Xenogears from the late 90s. Both start with an ominous sustained, rather low E-minor tonality with similar timbres.

http://youtu.be/bulTjNn-MMo?t=33s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEHyxn47yAc

But look at where each goes harmonically from there. Vangelis and Mitsuda are both completely masterful and these are some of the best moments in any sci-fi score and from a similar starting point they take the viewer into the world of their stories through their harmonic progression.

Notice the progression through quartal and quintal harmony in the Mitsuda piece before returning to E-minor and the shifts on tonality based on the handling of the sixth scale degree (B vs Bb) are.

Also look at chordal vs melodic motion in the two pieces.

EDIT: And listen for how the length of that original "low E" really sets the listener up for the harmonic changes. They are hungry for them by the time they enter and both of the pieces make real drama out of them. The Vangelis in sweeping us upward and the Mitsuda in going martial.


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## José Herring (Jan 5, 2013)

Never said that it wasn't useful, but has been used so much that it just becomes instantly recognizable. Not that that is so bad when wanting to nail down a genre.


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## reddognoyz (Jan 5, 2013)

josejherring @ Sat Jan 05 said:


> Fully understanding why the scales became "well tempered". Understanding what chords belong to which keys.
> 
> Movement in 3rds is useful. But merely too simplistic of a device and becomes hackneyed in a very short amount of time and truly only works in minor keys as minor keys are built around the mediant relationship to its relative major.




Okay I had to look up both "chromatic mediants" and "pivot chords" so I learned a couple of things. 

I've been playing around with moving minor chords by major thirds, and finding strong melodies on top and arpeggios underneath that glue them together. It's really a device and, yes it can become hackneyed, although as a film device it works very well in moving a scene forward w/o changing the underlying emotional import. Perhaps that's why it's such a well worn device. (Now combine THAT with your spicatto string patterns and BAM! "Hey haven't I hear that before? Ha ha) it can give a sense of forward movement or time passage, or " twists and turns in the plot.

It's a also a gateway device to a whole different sort of modulation, especially for us I-VI-II-IV jazz trained musicians.

Major chord moving by minor thirds and triads is also a neat trick. I find that there are so many uncommon tones that , again glueing them together with a strong melodic idea or voice leading really makes it work. The trick is to try and keep if from sounding like parallel 5th movement. Like iron man or smoke on the water : ) because that's a different bag altogether. 

Once you start establishing these moving key centers you can break from the bonds of traditional diatonic or circle of fifths type of chord movement and resolution. When the unexpected resolution becomes the expectation, all sorts of wacky and wonderful opportunities arise.

I'm in the process of extending this concept to modal and altered scale harmonic stuff and seeing where that will lead me. It gonna take me a while because I'm booked on a couple of tv shows so its gonna be on the job training for me. 

Funny though, I always think to myself, when I encorporate some new (to me) orchestration/ scoring concept into a score,typically, a cartoon, I think I'm gonna get busted, that the director will never go for it. That's never happened, at least in my recollection. If its working with the scene it just flys under the radar. I. Expect it to be at least noticed, thur far it hasn't. I suppose that's good.


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## dannthr (Jan 5, 2013)

A good exercise is to just write chords alternating between two separate scales/keys--this can help to loosen you up.


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## DocMidi657 (Jan 5, 2013)

Hey Dan,

That sounds very interesting. Can you elaborate a little more regarding this exercise? Do you mean this:

2 different keys (I'll go with C and Eb for this example)

So the exercise/progression would be this below?

C Eb Dm Fm Em Gm F Ab G Bb Am Cm Bdim Ddim

Dave


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## reddognoyz (Jan 5, 2013)

Edit: 

"Major chord moving by minor thirds and triads is also a neat trick."

I meant moving major chords moving by minor thirds and tritones.


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## dannthr (Jan 5, 2013)

DocMidi657 @ Sat Jan 05 said:


> Hey Dan,
> 
> That sounds very interesting. Can you elaborate a little more regarding this exercise? Do you mean this:
> 
> ...



I like it, though I would probably push to have successive chords share chord-tones, so that they maintain a tonal link as you move between the two tonalities.

Doing this will make it easier to build a melody/theme.


EDIT: For example, here's one I was messing around with earlier today: C Fm C Ab C Fm C - F Cm F Cm Ab Eb G - cadence time! - C Fm C Ab C Fm C


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## mducharme (Jan 5, 2013)

dannthr @ Sat Jan 05 said:


> EDIT: For example, here's one I was messing around with earlier today: C Fm C Ab C Fm C - F Cm F Cm Ab Eb G - cadence time! - C Fm C Ab C Fm C



I don't hear that as ever leaving the key of C.. was that meant as a modulating example?


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## dannthr (Jan 5, 2013)

Sure, I used C as an anchor and kept it simple--the idea was to tip-toe outside of the basic diatonic structure in a comfortable and easy fashion.

But it's just as easy to keep moving in a single direction rather than go back.

For example, what if you did F Cm F Cm Ab Ebm Ab Ebm B Gbm Dbm A etc, etc, etc...

The exercise is just to get the person to explore something a little different while still allowing them to be within reach of a comfortable place just in case things got hairy.


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## mducharme (Jan 5, 2013)

It really depends on what you want to do though. In the classical sense, modulations helped to define the form of the piece. I think that is still the case with film scores. It is rarely desirable to modulate during a theme, at least during section A (unless you are doing something akin to classical binary form or Bach chorales). 

Your example would work fine as the harmonic progression for the A section of a theme, because it never moves out of the C major/minor area.

Your second example would be more appropriate for a transition, bridging two areas through a sequential modulation.

It's all a balance, really. If you are constantly modulating, you are never anywhere long enough to get your footing, and therefore the music is changing so constantly and consistently that the change itself becomes boring. If you are in the same key for too long, it gets boring through lack of change.


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## dannthr (Jan 5, 2013)

Agreed, the exercise isn't about form, it's about exploring tonality in a safe/comfortable way.


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## José Herring (Jan 5, 2013)

No system of moving chords, no device of moving from key to key and no theory is as important as the voiceleading and the resultant effect.


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## dannthr (Jan 5, 2013)

Why would you say that? Congratulations on prioritizing things for the OP, but the question wasn't "is changing keys important?"

The question was about how people can move through harmonies fluidly and that tells me that the OP is uncomfortable moving to new tonalities/tonal centers.

And you know what? That can seem like a really intimidating concept or really mysterious when you're a beginner--and the only reason is because they haven't explored or had fun enough with different harmonic movement.

This isn't about determining what is important, it's about exploring one particular aspect of music and those in the community with experience should simply be encouraging people to explore music in a pleasurable and enjoyable way.

Telling the student that something they're interested in is not important (or not as important as this other thing you know about) is just a really poor way of responding to genuine musical curiosity.

I don't understand why you would just say that to someone.

Why can't we just have fun exploring chord progression and harmony without worrying about texture or form or anything else?

Yes, we can incorporate texture into this discussion, but this is an opportunity for the student to enjoy a specific and isolated aspect of music--so, even if we want to bring in other topics, let's respond positively to that, shall we?

So, Jose, why don't you elaborate on how texture and voice-leading can help the OP move through different keys/tonalities?


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## Resoded (Jan 6, 2013)

Some great advice here and thank you all for taking your time. Still listening and taking notes.


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## dedersen (Jan 6, 2013)

Just wanted to say that I always enjoy reading these kinds of discussions. As someone with a rather ad hoc knowledge of music theory, I am always inspired by these threads to study some aspects of it more thoroughly. So thanks to all for contributing, very interesting discussions so far.


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## ed buller (Jan 6, 2013)

Voice leading does sometimes help the most radical of chord progressions sound a lot more natural . But it can be somewhat restrictive.

Another simple trick is to harmonise a melody with chords from any key.

let's say you write a 5 note melody. On each note pick a chord ( Triad ) that has the melody either as it's root, third or fifth. It can be a major chord or a minor chord...you choose.

That will give you (i think ) 6 chords per note as possibilities ..that's 30 chords to pick from over just 5 notes. It will allow you to hear very quickly what a bunch of wildly different chord progressions sound like....but tied to a melody . Which gives it some sense of unity.

once you've got bored with this. try picking chords where your melody note would be something other than the root, third or fifth. Maybe a seventh ( minor or major) a ninth , a sus 4 or 2 ...


or

Play a chord ( triad ) and move 1 finger to make a new chord. Then again (1 finger ) keep doing it to hear the result. Then try and get back to your original chord ( 1 finger movements) . Then try it with 2 finger movements. You must always play a chord though. either major or minor .


e


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## handz (Jan 6, 2013)

FANTASTIC THREAD!

as someone without musical education, I also used to compose mainly by ear, now I have some more knowledge but still I cant understand what the hell is the theory behind moving chords in thirds - it is instant Williams sound - no doubt - but is there any theory around this? How to make the piece sound fluid - I finf returning to some "normal" mode bit difficult after these jumps. 

Worst thing for me is - when you get to use some rules, like harmony, scales etc, then you being to affraid to do what you were doing commonly when composing by ear - using random chords that just worked. So now I usually use Major / paraler minor scale. Im still confused about what chromatic mediants are? Are these borrowed chords? Im sorry saw tons post about them but still not quite sure what chromatic dominants are.


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## mducharme (Jan 6, 2013)

There are three types of third-progressions: diatonic third-progressions, third-progressions using borrowed chords, and chromatic mediants.

If you are in the key of C major, lets say, you have some options for diatonic third movement.. an example would be C maj - A min, another example would be E minor - G major, etc. The examples are numerous. Those are all within the key of C major.

To get a more extended tonality available, one can use borrowed chords. This makes all of the chords of C minor and major simultaneously available within the key of C. So you can have third-progressions using borrowed chords like C major - Ab major, or C major - Eb major, or Ab major to F major, etc. Of course you can also borrow chords from phrygian mode (or other church modes for that matter), making progressions like F - Db major available in minor or major. (You can of course use any sort of progression with borrowed chords, not just third-progressions, but it is the third-progression that is the current topic of discussion)

However, you will also find third progressions that do not fit into either the class of diatonic third progressions or third progressions with borrowed chords. For instance, in the key of C minor, the progression C minor to Ab minor. Ab minor doesn't fit in either the key of C minor or C major. Therefore, it is third movement, but that third movement is neither explained by diatonic movement within the key nor by borrowed chords from a parallel mode. That type of third movement is called a chromatic mediant. C major (or C minor) to Eb minor, within the context of the key of C, would be another example.

So how do you use these three types, musically?

They are arranged in order of stability.. Diatonic third-progressions are obviously the most stable. They rarely disrupt the sense of key.

Third progressions with borrowed chords expand on tonality a bit more. You can usually use them without disrupting the sense of key. The first example given by dannthr above demonstrates this.

Third progressions with chromatic mediants are the most disruptive to tonality. They will throw off the sense of key quite quickly. Therefore, it is hard to work them into the A section of themes, or other sections where tonal stability is desired, because you quickly modulate into some foreign place. dannthr's second example shows this.

An example to go against this of course, is the C minor to Ab minor chromatic mediant third progression, which is the same as the one that opens the Imperial March by Williams (I may be transposing the original here). There, Williams employs a chromatic mediant progression that does not disrupt the sense of key. There are a few reasons for this:

- While Ab minor is neither diatonic to C minor nor C major, its constituent notes are all scale tones of C, if you misspell it as Ab-B-Eb.
- Williams moves from C minor to Ab minor and back to C minor. The neighboring function of the chord, immediately returning to its starting tonic, limits the tonal disruption created.
- The voice-leading is smooth

One can accomplish the same thing with, for instance, the progression C minor - Eb minor - G major. Both C minor and G major are normal chords, with Eb minor being the the chromatic mediant. Being sandwiched between those two more normal chords limits its disruption to the key in the same way as the Williams example.

Some chromatic mediants were used in the late romantic era within the context of a key, taking on functions within that key. In major, these are III and VI (i.e. In C major, you may find A major or E major in such music). In minor, these are bvi (the imperial march example) and bii (i.e. in c minor, you may find Ab minor or D-flat minor in such music). Those usages expanded upon, but did not throw away, the tonality that was established. Those particular romantic-era instances are sometimes called altered chords rather than chromatic mediants, since those may be approached using progressions other than third-progressions.

Note that when I said above, 'disruptive of the sense of key', I did not mean that necessarily as a negative - it is a balance. The expanded color palette provided by the use of borrowed chords and chromatic mediants is found in all types of film music. In some cases, such as thematic statements, you will likely want to limit your disruption to the prevailing tonality (i.e. if you do use chromatic mediants in a thematic statement, it would be an isolated occurrence that would be preceded and followed by diatonic or borrowed chords that possess a strong function in that key, and by extension would have a functional aspect itself). In other cases, such as transitions, you may want to go a little crazier with the chromatic mediants, and let them take you off into strange places. Then you settle down for a little while, and then modulate again, etc. It's all about balance and compositional design.


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## handz (Jan 6, 2013)

thank you so much mducharme - great explanation, will read it few more times later and will for sure have some more questions, but this is really very helping post! 

Chromatic mediants are indeed what I always like about Williams´s music - Rebel fleet, indiana jones love theme.I always admired this "strange" sounding chord changes which did not seem to fit to any of the keys.


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## mducharme (Jan 6, 2013)

I wanted to add, tritone-progressions are closely related to chromatic mediant progressions. This is because moving by a minor third twice in any direction moves you away from your starting point by a tritone. Therefore, the "omission" of an intervening chromatic mediant results in a tritone progression. It is also not a coincidence that the interval of a tritone divides an octave symmetrically into two.

The way chromatic mediants (and related tritone progressions) work is based upon the symmetrical subdivisions of an octave. Our typical scales are asymmetrical, a strange, irregular pattern of half steps and whole steps. That irregularity gives us tonality because, if the pattern were regular instead of irregular (i.e. if the octave was divided symmetrically), we would not have a frame of reference to know where we were in the key. Consider symmetrical scales like the whole tone scale or octatonic scale - no way of knowing where the tonic is, if there even is one (unless you happen to have a pedal point (sustained tonic note) going on).

If you look at chromatic mediants, they are relations based on minor or major thirds. If you play a chord of stacked major thirds, you get an augmented triad. If you play a chord of stacked minor thirds, you get a diminished seventh chord. Both diminished seventh chords and augmented triads are tonally ambiguous because they have so many possible functions. This tonal ambiguity is caused by the symmetrical subdivision of the octave that they represent. (Also, note the connections between the augmented triad and the whole tone scale, and between the diminished seventh and the octatonic scale).

The connections between the tonal ambiguity of those chords and that of chromatic mediant progressions become obvious if we consider a chromatic mediant progression to represent a linear unfolding of one of those chords. For instance, C minor - Eb minor - F# minor - A minor. That progression outlines a diminished seventh chord horizontally, you can hear it in the roots (C-Eb-F#-A). The impact it has on creating a sense of modulation is the equivalent to the use of a vertically-deployed diminished seventh chord - however, thankfully, it does not sound as old fashioned as the diminished seventh chord itself.


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## José Herring (Jan 6, 2013)

dannthr @ Sat Jan 05 said:


> Why would you say that? Congratulations on prioritizing things for the OP, but the question wasn't "is changing keys important?"
> 
> The question was about how people can move through harmonies fluidly and that tells me that the OP is uncomfortable moving to new tonalities/tonal centers.
> 
> ...



In other words you can go from any tonality to any other tonality based on the effect you want to create and the smoothness or lack of smoothness of your voicing and voicleading depending upon again what effect you want to create. 

For example you can create shock by just banging a modulation from one tonality to an extremely different one without any setup. 

Or you can go smoothly from one tonal center to the next, like Wanger, just based on your voicing and voicleading.

In the end, the reason for, the grand "well-tempered" clavier is so, that would be possible. Yet for years, almost every music theorist has over looked that one simple principle. That it was developed as a system where going from tonal center to tonal center via scales could be more easily facilitated. 

So at the end of studying every book practically on harmony that I could find, that was the conclusion.

Try it, you'll see. How you get to the change is more important than the underlying theory of harmony.

Can't wait for Guy Bacos to come on now to insult me! :lol: But before he does, this idea isn't all mine. I actually first heard it from Ravel.

So, imo, any study of harmony is practically useless without a study of good part writing. Unless a person is content with playing chords in the left hand, while doing melody in the right. Which is perfectly legitimate and works too. Certainly easier. :D 

And good part writing is an aesthetic rather than a collection of rules. Why this ruffles feathers is beyond me.

As Duke Ellington use to say, if it sounds good, it is good.


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## dannthr (Jan 6, 2013)

I love you guys--awesome!

Our community is awesome!


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## ed buller (Jan 6, 2013)

If you have an ipad or iPhone, ths is a great app. Yu can string chords together effortlessly to get ideas.
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/chordbo ... 54767?mt=8

E


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 6, 2013)

A few thoughts.

First, the tertial harmony mentioned by Scott Smalley is from counterpoint and you see it clearly in The Instant Composer: Counterpoint by Fux. In the beginning, you're building chord progressions based on common tones. So in Dorian, if the melody is an F, your chord choices are DMin and F. If you have an A in the melody, your chord choices are AMin, F, DMin, and so on. In the beginning phase, you're limited to root and third in the bass, mode by mode.

Because of this modal approach, we learn from Fux where secondary dominants come from - the raised leading tone going (a substitute V) going to a I or i to set up the final cadence, except for Phrygian which has its own unique ending.

Jose's point is ably illustrated in the Bach chorales. Look at the first chord, last chord, and each chord with a fermata (bird's eye) and there you'll find the core progressions for that hymn tune. Then start with the first fermata and work BACKWARDS to understand how Bach reharmonized.

I agree that today depending on they're used secondary dominants can sound old fashioned.

However in answer to the question, the most systematic approach is Schoenberg's Theory of Harmony 100th Anniversary Edition. From Schoenberg you learn a unique approach for moving "effortlessly" through different keys. 

Warning! Woodshedding required.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 7, 2013)

josejherring @ Sun Jan 06 said:


> Can't wait for Guy Bacos to come on now to insult me!



Nah, not worth it anymore. Prefer to keep my energies to write music.


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## KEnK (Jan 7, 2013)

mducharme @ Sun Jan 06 said:


> If you play a chord of stacked minor thirds, you get a diminished seventh chord.


I'm coming from a Jazz orientation.
I wonder if we have slightly different terminology?

A "diminished chord" is stacked 3rds C-Eb-Gb-_Bbb_ (or A, enharmonically) 
A "diminished _seventh_ chord" would be C-Eb-Gb-_Bb_, 
also called the Half Diminished Chord.

Or have I been mistaken about this for decades? :wink: 

Interesting bi-tonal exercises here btw.
I'm used to modulating pretty freely 
using voice leading, "borrowed chords", tritone subs and the like,
but I've never tried any of these suggestions.

I like them.

k


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 7, 2013)

You know, the first thing that struck me when I read this the other day was that the question itself seems a little off the mark.

If the fundamental goal is to expand beyond diatonic writing, I don't think "how do I modulate smoothly" is the best place to start (because you'll just insert a chord or two and write diatonically in the next key).

The real question is "how do I learn about harmony," as Peter basically says. Having gone through Berklee, I like their approach of starting with chord scales rather than getting involved in counterpoint (which tends to be more intellectual at first), but all of the above is perfectly valid.


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## mducharme (Jan 7, 2013)

KEnK @ Mon Jan 07 said:


> mducharme @ Sun Jan 06 said:
> 
> 
> > If you play a chord of stacked minor thirds, you get a diminished seventh chord.
> ...



It is perhaps a terminological difference.

In classical terminology, a diminished chord refers specifically to a diminished triad, ex. C-Eb-Gb, with no seventh.

A diminished seventh chord (aka 'fully-diminished-seventh chord') is a shorter name for a diminished-diminished seventh chord, where the first part (before the dash) refers to the quality of the triad (diminished) and the second part (after the dash) refers to the quality of the interval of a seventh above the root of the triad (a diminished seventh). Therefore, C-Eb-Gb-Bbb.

A half-diminished seventh chord is a frequently used nickname for a diminished-minor seventh chord, where the triad is diminished but the seventh is minor, resulting in C-Eb-Gb-Bb.

In classical terminology, the rule is to shorten the name where the quality of the triad matches the quality of the seventh (i.e. instead of saying major-major seventh or minor-minor seventh you would just say major seventh or minor seventh respectively, but in the case of a dominant seventh chord, you would need to say major-minor seventh, since the qualities do not match so it cannot be shortened).


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## Daniel James (Jan 8, 2013)

Haha I learnt the basics of music theory only after I discovered my own ways of modulation....its pretty hard to explain how my brain works but its something along the line of....your melody normally 'lands' on a 1st 3rd or 5th of a chord (or sus4's,7ths etc) when I want to change key, when I get to the 'landing' note I just make the melody land on the 1st 3rd or 5th of a chord thats not in the key im already in...then from there I work out what key that chord belongs to and go using that scale. I told you I make no sense, to me though it works.

-DJ


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 8, 2013)

Daniel James @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> Haha I learnt the basics of music theory only after I discovered my own ways of modulation....its pretty hard to explain how my brain works but its something along the line of....your melody normally 'lands' on a 1st 3rd or 5th of a chord (or sus4's,7ths etc) when I want to change key, when I get to the 'landing' note I just make the melody land on the 1st 3rd or 5th of a chord thats not in the key im already in...then from there I work out what key that chord belongs to and go using that scale. I told you I make no sense, to me though it works.
> 
> -DJ



Sorry to disappoint, Daniel, but this isn't new. Composers have been using this technique for a while as any pitch can be part of 50+ different chords. Some jazz songwriters have the melody "land" on a 7th or 9th of a chord.


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## germancomponist (Jan 8, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> Composers have been using this technique for a while as any pitch can be part of 50+ different chords. Some jazz songwriters have the melody "land" on a 7th or 9th of a chord.



Correctly!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 8, 2013)

mducharme, usually in the US people call them diminished 7 and either minor 7 flat 5 or half diminished.

When it gets a little less standard is if you want a dim chord with major 7, e.g. C Eb Gb B. I'd be afraid a player would stumble seeing C dim Maj 7 or something like that.


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## Alex Cuervo (Jan 8, 2013)

Threads like this one are exactly what makes this place great. Thanks for the great info guys.


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## Daniel James (Jan 8, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> Daniel James @ Tue Jan 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Haha I learnt the basics of music theory only after I discovered my own ways of modulation....its pretty hard to explain how my brain works but its something along the line of....your melody normally 'lands' on a 1st 3rd or 5th of a chord (or sus4's,7ths etc) when I want to change key, when I get to the 'landing' note I just make the melody land on the 1st 3rd or 5th of a chord thats not in the key im already in...then from there I work out what key that chord belongs to and go using that scale. I told you I make no sense, to me though it works.
> ...



Haha didn't say it was new or clever  . Just that's how I see it in my head, and how I apply it to modulation. 

-DJ


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 8, 2013)

> When it gets a little less standard is if you want a dim chord with major 7, e.g. C Eb Gb B. I'd be afraid a player would stumble seeing C dim Maj 7 or something like that.



By the way, I'd probably just cheat and write B/C.


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## wst3 (Jan 8, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> > When it gets a little less standard is if you want a dim chord with major 7, e.g. C Eb Gb B. I'd be afraid a player would stumble seeing C dim Maj 7 or something like that.
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, I'd probably just cheat and write B/C.



That's really quite interesting!

I had to look at it for a second - and I am certain I'd have never come up with that, as my brain thinks of a B chord as B - D# - F#. I really need to learn to loosen up a bit.

I'm not sure how I'd notate the chord in question, B/C would get you there, as would
B add 9, neither of which is the exact voicing, and B/C is probably closer.

When I am writing an arrangement that I am going to play, and I come up with some impossibly hip voicing I'll either write it out in standard notation, or notate it as just the triad that I thought was cool, and I'll make sure the other notes get covered in other parts. That does not always work well when writing for others<G>!


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## mducharme (Jan 8, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> mducharme, usually in the US people call them diminished 7 and either minor 7 flat 5 or half diminished.
> 
> When it gets a little less standard is if you want a dim chord with major 7, e.g. C Eb Gb B. I'd be afraid a player would stumble seeing C dim Maj 7 or something like that.



I learned from textbooks written and published in the US, they are the main college textbooks written for music theory and harmony study. They use the system I describe (with major-major shortened to major, etc). I'm sure things are different in the more business oriented LA scene than they are in academia.

I didn't even know what G/B meant until about four years ago, after studying harmony for several years, because an explanation of that was relegated to a "jazz names for chords" optional appendix. Classical theory/harmony study doesn't usually even cover what that very commonly-used and simple example means -- it is often skipped over because it's just part of the "Jazz naming system".


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 8, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> mducharme, usually in the US people call them diminished 7 and either minor 7 flat 5 or half diminished.
> 
> When it gets a little less standard is if you want a dim chord with major 7, e.g. C Eb Gb B. I'd be afraid a player would stumble seeing C dim Maj 7 or something like that.



Nick you're half right on this one. Those of us who had so-called "jazz harmony" learned chords this way: Berklee, University of Miami, what used to be North Texas State, Mt. Hood Community College jazz program, Dick Grove, and long before that.


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 8, 2013)

mducharme @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Jan 08 said:
> 
> 
> > mducharme, usually in the US people call them diminished 7 and either minor 7 flat 5 or half diminished.
> ...



Oh, which ones? Ottman?


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## mducharme (Jan 9, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> Oh, which ones? Ottman?



The Ottman has it as well I see, but I at first learned the naming system from the "Programmed" series (Rudiments, and then Harmony) by Harder/Steinke. The Aldwell/Schachter uses the same system, but does not explain it as fully (it seems to take it for granted that the student is already familiar with the system from rudiments). I studied the Kostka and Payne as well, but by that point I had learned the basics from enough other books that I skipped the introductory chapters. From what I recall though, the Kostka/Payne was one of the few texts I've seen to integrate the jazz nomenclature into the primary text (in the introductory chapters at least) as opposed to only using the roman numeral system. I would have to check to see whether it uses the term diminished-minor (I do not have it on hand at this moment) under classical naming, although I seem to recall it did. Several harmony books (non-university) written in Canada use those terms as well, but I know they are not only Canadian due to having first encountered them in the texts from the US.

Regardless, I would always use the term "half-diminished seventh" instead of "diminished-minor seventh" because the latter is one of those things that you learn in first year, or before, and never refer to again.

It is very confusing that there is a jazz system and a classical system for naming these things. Then in England, you have the different system of indicating inversions, with lowercase letters a,b,c, etc. Sometimes augmented chords are referred to with a small 'x' for augmented, other times with a little '+'. There are all sorts of variations out there.


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## dannthr (Jan 9, 2013)

The Kostka/Payne covers "Inversions in Lead Sheets" when it discusses Inversions after the roman numeral system is covered.

They call them "Slash Chords."


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## tschaya (Feb 12, 2013)

Maybe this would be interesting: Beiträge zur Modulationslehre, Leipzig 1903. (Contributions to the modulation theory) by german composer Max Reger. A little old, but could be still useful.

http://www.datafilehost.com/download-3c6ad983.html

Attention - better uncheck window "Use your download manager and get recommended downloads"...


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## Vartio (Feb 12, 2013)

mducharme @ Sat Jan 05 said:


> In my experience, I have found that classical techniques of modulation do not necessarily help much. Many of them revolve around the use and/or reinterpretation of either the dominant seventh chord or the diminished seventh chord. While they obviously work, it is hard to make them fit with a modern harmonic language, they tend to sound quite old fashioned. You can sometimes sneak the dominant seventh in, however, by introducing the seventh in passing motion.


at that point one should try substituting the dominant chord with something else. you can derive some interesting stuff from taking the inversions of that chord and playing with upper structures. chords on top of each other. maybe dropping the 7th completely. off chord bass notes. turning the chord into augmented etc. it really all depends on the effect you're going for. sometimes the "old fashion"ness of dominant works well too especially if the piece has been moving around harmonies in 3rds.

also taking a look at jazz harmony is really useful in these kind of situations.

multiple modulations to different keys is incredibly useful and powerful for establishing a plethora of different emotions in a very short time frame and should never be taken too ligthly or without consideration. its really easy to "exhaust" a piece of music with too many modulation or just simply bore the listener with an unimaginative one. so take care and plan it out.


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