# The reverb ( or better said, the room information ) is more than 50% of your mix?!



## germancomponist (Aug 14, 2011)

I think it is a very interesting theme. I always said that the reverb is very very important. We now have great examples, showing us how an instrument sounds, if it was recorded here or there.... .

But, we all use reverb plugs. In theory you can get the best results when you use a dry recorded sample and add a reverb plug. I think this is true! But, I also know that many composers are not also sound engineers. 

What do you think? What do you prefer?


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## charlieclouser (Aug 14, 2011)

I'm a firm believer in reverb - lots of it! But I've still never heard a reverb plugin or outboard unit that REALLY makes me think the sound is in a real room. In 1982 we had very few choices for digital verb (Rev7, MXR 01a, etc.) and I used to run live chambers with a Technics home stereo receiver and a pair of Bose 301 speakers - it sounded astonishingly good. I still run live chambers now and then, as my living room stereo is a pair of Tannoy dual concentric 15" mains - it sounds so freaking good that it's not even funny - but my living room is a wildly asymmetrical concrete, wood, and glass space with 26' ceilings, so no surprise there. I shot the room impulse both through the Tannoys and live in the room, and while it sounded okay in Space Designer there was something missing... and it was no comparison to actually running the live chamber.

... that's why I always use wet samples, and when I have to use LASS or Vienna insts and try to wet them up to match the burned-in reverb on EWQL, SAM, or Spitfire libraries it's a struggle and I wind up with some of the wet libraries on top of the dry ones. LASS through my live chamber does get to sounding pretty darn good, but wifey gets tired of sitting quietly in her office while solo cello is looping all day long in the house! So sometimes I make do with the Space Designer clone of my living room while I'm working and then bounce down through the live chamber to audio once the programming is done.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Aug 16, 2011)

I believe that we shouldn't try to produce a live-situation at home. Maybe that we can come close to such a situation when we all have our 7.1 or 25.1 systems in future. But most of us still use now stereo systems.

So let's say yes to the two speakers and produce an interesting mix for them. 
A mix which can come close to a sort of live-situation but also with effects which are not possible to get in a concert: A soloist just in front of me (1m), a shaker only in the right channel, a Marimba far away... 
In other words: Let us use the possibilities of all the effects instead of trying to reach the live-situation which isn't possible to get really.
Playing with several depths can be a very creative instrument. 
So, yes I agree with the 50% and more.

And also: 
Keep in mind that a lot of (most of the?) people listen to the music with headphones today.
_
Beat Kaufmann_


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## germancomponist (Aug 16, 2011)

Beat Kaufmann @ Tue Aug 16 said:


> I believe that we shouldn't try to produce a live-situation at home. Maybe that we can come close to such a situation when we all have our 7.1 or 25.1 systems in future. But most of us still use now stereo systems.
> 
> So let's say yes to the two speakers and produce an interesting mix for them.
> A mix which can come close to a sort of live-situation but also with effects which are not possible to get in a concert: A soloist just in front of me (1m), a shaker only in the right channel, a Marimba far away...
> ...



Great post! I agree 100%!


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## Dan Mott (Aug 16, 2011)

I'd prefer to use my own room creations. I hate! when libraries are covered in verb, or were recorded in a concert hall. God damn annoying because that's it and you have to deal with it. I don't understand how people are satisfied with the whole "concert hall, plus another reverb plugin to blend" or simply putting heaps of verb on everything else to match the room of a certain instrument pre recorded in a hall.

Every sample library should be recorded in a studio similar to what EW recorded their hollywood series in with 2 or three mic positions, most important that there is close mics. I love that you have so much flexibility because of that, and you can mix from the ground up. 

I personally think it's stupid that samples are recorded in a hall. We are not mixing live music here, nor most of us can afford it. If i was a sample library developer, I'd always record every library in a studio, a medium sized studio like EW, or in some cases a nice soundstage depending on the content. I'd consider that composers are using multiple libraries that were recorded in different rooms and such and I'd make life easier by the composer being able to mix and match how ever they choose than have all this HALL sound all over the samples. It feels like companies are trying to keep a signature sound, with a signature hall. Seems they are too focused on that, than flexibility. Too focused on getting the library sounding TOO amazing in isolation.

However. Yes! If I had access to a nice hall, I'd record all my sounds in that same hall, at multiple mic positions. That way it wouldn't matter if all my sounds had the hall all over them because the rest of my sounds have the same hall, so it would all sound lovely and natural, not to mention easier to mix and match, as well as I'd place everything in the proper position.

When you are using multiple sample libraries that were recorded in different rooms and halls, ect, then you just get a mess. You can still get good results, but it's still not satisfying because it's easy to tell that everything is coming from a seperate room. Just chucking a hall verb on top of an instrument that was reocrded in a smaller hall, it just sounds like a sound coming from a small room with a tail of a big hall. It's just a very annoying sound and it's two rooms competing with eachother with different characteristics. This is why when people record their instruments properly, their mixes sound fantastic because they obviously wouldn't make their mix purposly tedious if they decided to record every element of their track in a different hall or room. It also avoids any extra mud and frequency clashes IMO.

To me this all makes perfect sense. To others it may not, but I just don't understand why it wouldn't unless all your sounds were recorded in the same hall, or were all recorded dry so you could design your mix your self and design your own room. EW made a great decision recording HS in a nice studio, aswell as HB. I hate it when there is HALL all over a sound (sounds nice yeah in isolation), but not when you like the sound and you want it dry, or at least a little less verby for your prefered sound in the mix.

I big example would be 8dio's epic dhol. I love the library, but if it were me, I'd never make percussion THAT wet. It's just insane and I don't use it much in a mix because of that, even if I turn the release down. Some samples are just too wet to use for a certain track IMO (if you are going for a certain sound and you prefer dryer percussion, ect, ect).


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## tripit (Aug 16, 2011)

I don't know Dan, in general, yeah samples shouldn't be recorded in a hall because most likely your stuck with the sound. But when you listen to stuff like Spitfire, the hall is so amazing sounding, that for me, it's a huge part of why I like their libraries so much. Also the Cinebrass has a wonderful sound, largely in part due to the Sony soundstage. Places like Air and Sony are highly sought after because they sound so good. Not every hall or stage sounds great or even all that good. There is a reason why everyone has been using the Todd AO in Altiverb so much - that room was great particularly good sounding for film orchestra. I think having a great hall or stage sound in the samples can be a plus - it saves us from having to cough up all of the room sound ourselves, as long as the hall is really stellar. 

Maybe it should be they shouldn't record samples in a less then a stellar sounding hall. 

The newer EW and LASS stuff sounds really good as well, but they don't have a "to die for" room sound. You do have less of a room sound and that works well for flexibility.

And that's why they make things like the M7 or if you are lucky enough, a killer chamber like Charlie was talking about. If you ever heard the chambers at Capitol Records, they would make you cry they sound so good. 

Anyway, the verb or room sound is a HUGE part of the mix. Or to answer the OP, yes it's more than 50% of my mix because it is the hardest part to get really right and it's probably the most single important element of the mix. All the other parts are greatly affected by it and nothing sucks more than a dry sounding orchestra.


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## rayinstirling (Aug 17, 2011)

"EARS"

without a good pair of these, nothing else makes much difference.


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## Dan Mott (Aug 17, 2011)

tripit @ Wed Aug 17 said:


> I don't know Dan, in general, yeah samples shouldn't be recorded in a hall because most likely your stuck with the sound. But when you listen to stuff like Spitfire, the hall is so amazing sounding, that for me, it's a huge part of why I like their libraries so much. Also the Cinebrass has a wonderful sound, largely in part due to the Sony soundstage. Places like Air and Sony are highly sought after because they sound so good. Not every hall or stage sounds great or even all that good. There is a reason why everyone has been using the Todd AO in Altiverb so much - that room was great particularly good sounding for film orchestra. I think having a great hall or stage sound in the samples can be a plus - it saves us from having to cough up all of the room sound ourselves, as long as the hall is really stellar.
> 
> Maybe it should be they shouldn't record samples in a less then a stellar sounding hall.
> 
> ...



Well yes this is your tastes I see.

I disagree on that the room matters alot. We have great reverb plugins avaliable now, we don't need sample libraries pre-recorded in a hall to sound amazing in isolation for marketting purposes.

I don't know. I like to mix from the ground up because I get better results this way and I can make a track truly my own, without being stuck with the original ambience of a hall. Maybe I don't want a hall sound for my track, maybe I want my track to sound like it's on a scoring stage, or prehaps in a medium sized room, or prehaps dry, but I can't if a library is buried in the room. It's just stupid IMO and removes that part of creativity from your track because there's nothing you can do to get it away unless you have close mics which are a must. If libraries are going to continue being recorded in a hall, they should always do close mics for the people who want flexibility, instead of a pre out of the box sound you are stuck with.


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## germancomponist (Aug 17, 2011)

Dan-Jay @ Wed Aug 17 said:


> If libraries are going to continue being recorded in a hall, they should always do close mics for the people who want flexibility, instead of a pre out of the box sound you are stuck with.



Absolutely! 

What reminds me to EWQLSO Platinum. I think the most people only bought that "Gold" version with much baked in reverb. Maybe I am wrong, but I think if EW did sell (in the past when it came out) am EWQLSO "close mics" version, then most people would have this great library quite different in mind.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 17, 2011)

Dan-Jay @ Tue Aug 16 said:


> tripit @ Wed Aug 17 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know Dan, in general, yeah samples shouldn't be recorded in a hall because most likely your stuck with the sound. But when you listen to stuff like Spitfire, the hall is so amazing sounding, that for me, it's a huge part of why I like their libraries so much. Also the Cinebrass has a wonderful sound, largely in part due to the Sony soundstage. Places like Air and Sony are highly sought after because they sound so good. Not every hall or stage sounds great or even all that good. There is a reason why everyone has been using the Todd AO in Altiverb so much - that room was great particularly good sounding for film orchestra. I think having a great hall or stage sound in the samples can be a plus - it saves us from having to cough up all of the room sound ourselves, as long as the hall is really stellar.
> ...



Still waiting for that shining example of your prowess you threatened to do last month, Dan


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## Danny_Owen (Aug 17, 2011)

Lol. 

With EWQLSO Platinum you can actually get a reasonably good 'scoring stage' sound if you balance the mics in the right way, take off the tails, and reduce the release times of samples that have the reverb baked in (i.e. staccatos, pizz etc). Quite a lot of work, but the option is there at least, and means you don't have to do drastic EQing to get the right sound, which will probably result in a nicer sounding room.

It's far harder, I think, to get anything brilliant sounding out of things recorded only with one mic. You can do a very good job, no doubt, but it's the multiple mics that allow for the openness and natural sound I think. I'd personally rather have something recorded in an orchestral hall with multiple mics than something recorded in a scoring stage with only one mic position (unless it's a combined mic thing a la cinebrass).

I find the reverb hugely important though- without the room sounding right I don't think you can write in for the samples in the same way that you can for an orchestra, it just plain doesn't work. When it's all set up properly, you can get away with a lot more I'm finding.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Aug 17, 2011)

Sorry, had to delete my post...

Best
_Beat_


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## d-dmusic (Aug 17, 2011)

Hollywood Strings provides several mic positions. The Close mics combined with the Vintage mics clearly illustrates the depth and sound stage realism that comes with the combination of the two mic positions....albeit at a very, very RAM hungry price. o/~ 

I've tried so many reverbs looking for that sound stage magic and have narrowed my needs down to a few that stood out head and shoulders above the pack that I've tried and owned :
East West QL Spaces - stunning convolution verb.
ReLab480XL - did a remake of a current pop smash and nothing did the trick even remotely close to the 480XL.
112db Redline Reverb-lush, lush and more lushness.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 17, 2011)

I think reverb is less than 50% of a good mix, but bad use of reverb can ruin a mix more than 50%.


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## germancomponist (Aug 17, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Aug 17 said:


> ... but bad use of reverb can ruin a mix more than 50%.



Also true! o/~


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## germancomponist (Aug 17, 2011)

Beat Kaufmann @ Wed Aug 17 said:


> Sorry, had to delete my post...
> 
> Best
> _Beat_



Oh, I would like to read your last post!


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## Dan Mott (Aug 17, 2011)

Jay. Pick on somebody else.


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## devastat (Aug 17, 2011)

I don't know, I really do love to use some samples that has that natural reverb recorded on location. Something like True Strike or Spitfire percussions really shine when using the far mics and I never seem to be able to recreate anything as real sounding with close/mid mics and reverb plugins as using the natural reverb in those libraries. Same applies to Cinebrass. 

Offcourse it does sometimes become a problem when combining different libraries with natural reverb recorded on different locations, and I do agree on Dan's opinion about epic dhol sounding a bit too wet. But afterall it would be incredibly boring to get only dry samples I would say.


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## Dan Mott (Aug 17, 2011)

Hey.

I'm not saying I want dead dry samples.

If anyone here has HS or HB, you'll know what I mean. The close mics are almost completely dry, then you've got the mids, mains and surrounds which give you lovely depth and they don't sound completely dead, they have a beautiful studio room sound, not to much which is good. This leaves alot of flexibility for composers. Some people might go for the close mics and add a touch of verb, or some people might want a room sound first and choose the mains, then add verb. Some might even choose the surrounds, ect, ect.

It's just more pratical for me personally. Samples don't need to be covered with a hall sound, it just eliminates mix creativity and or if you are going for a specific sound. You just can't when you are stuck with an instrument that's already in a Hall.

It would be boring just getting dry samples (dead samples), but not if it's recorded in a lovely studio, or for percussion and nice soundstage with 3 or so mics.

Some people love the out fo the box hall sound because it's pretty much compose and go, which is great for people who are in a rush and can just focus on composing rather than trying to get an awesome hall sound, but I'm saying, libraries that don't have close mics, or mid mics just annoy me because it's like developers aren't considering that not everyone wants to be stuck in a huge hall throughout their whole composition, or every composition. Not everyone does film specific music out there.


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## devastat (Aug 17, 2011)

I agree with everything you say Dan. I also have HS + HB and the mic positions are lovely (I love the sound of the vintage mics). Same applies to True Strike and Spitfire percussions as well, you have a whole range from dry close mics to the far mics with the hall sound - perhaps the far mics are a bit more wet than HS+HB surround mics. To only have wet samples is very limiting..


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## Stephan Lindsjo (Aug 17, 2011)

I prefer quite dry samples to be able to build my own sound. Lately I've started to use only close mic, before I mixed close and mid, Still experimenting


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## RiffWraith (Aug 17, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Aug 17 said:


> I think reverb is less than 50% of a good mix, but bad use of reverb can ruin a mix more than 50%.



True. And bad use of mixing skills can ruin a good reverb more than 50%.


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