# Handling Cues in Film Scoring -Cubase/Logic



## jemu999 (Feb 16, 2017)

So aside from DP's chunk feature, Im curious to know how others are handling multiple film cues in Cubase or Logic? _(Don't have time or energy to learn DP)_

Im currently using Cubase, and have gotten away unscathed using a single session for all previous film projects. But in my most recent project, things got really messy with changes in edits. In fact, it was a nightmare. _(tempo mapping hell!)_

Im getting ready to score a feature film and need to figure out a better way that provides flexibility for film edits, but that still allows the ability to see the "big" picture of the score.

Are you guys creating a new project for every cue? What happens when the timecode changes to account for new edits? Are you importing new videos to each and every cue/project? Is VE Pro pretty much a must?

Any insight/tips from power users would be very much appreciated!


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## charlieclouser (Feb 17, 2017)

- New project file for every cue. This way I can make an absolute mess in a single cue, or go crazy with the tempo maps without disturbing any other cues. Any other method leads to pain and suffering. I wind up with 25-30 separate project files for an hour-long television episode and as many as 80 for a five-reel feature film.

- All built from the same template, which hopefully includes 80% of the sounds you're likely to use in the whole film.

- I leave a few empty instrument slots in my template for those one-off / wild card instruments that you want to load as you go and use only in that cue.

- Sometimes I do one of the biggest / most complex / biggest scope cues first, then use that project file as the template.

- I run video on a separate Mac Mini using VideoSlave software, so I can just slip and slide the cues in Logic against that. But in terms of time code, having the video inside Logic itself is no different - adjusting the Project start point just moves the music around relative to the video. The time code counter in Logic will always match the visual time code in the movie if you're doing it right, and the tempo map controls where the music falls relative to that. But if you have or can get a spare Mac, then VideoSlave is an excellent way to go. Check it out here:

https://non-lethal-applications.com/products/video-slave-3

- When the edit changes, no problem. Adjust the timecode / tempo map for each cue that's affected - individually. A time code calculator app can help if things get really complex. A free one is available from the same guy who makes VideoSlave, download it here by signing up to his email list:

https://non-lethal-applications.com/products/timecode-calculator

- VEPro is nice if you're using lots of Kontakt instruments. With "preserve" turned on, the VEPro setup stays the same as you load various cues in your DAW.

- To see the "big picture" I create a separate "whole movie" project in Logic into which I dump rough mixes as I work, and then the final mixes as they are finished. This project is also built from my template, so I can overdub just one string line or whatever on top of a finished set of stems at the last minute and re-bounce if needed without loading up the original cue's project file. (This usually only happens after the movie is on the dub stage and they're asking for just one more little thing to go on top of the stems they're already mixing against.) On bigger projects I use a separate Pro Tools machine to record my stems into - this way the Pro Tools session represents the whole movie (or the whole reel in the case of multi-reel projects) and I can easily hear how the current cue in Logic will overlap with the next / previous cues that are playing from Pro Tools.


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## gjelul (Feb 17, 2017)

One scene - one Logic session.


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## Chris Hurst (Feb 17, 2017)

I use Logic and the last film I did was one Logic session per reel. The previous one to that was one Logic session per scene.

The next one will be one Logic session per scene again. The one session per reel opened up a whole world of hurt with any edits/changes etc!

I also run one master session per reel and drop the scene bounces into the time line to make sure the flow and feel works. It can be easy to get sucked into a particular scene, so you need to remember the bigger picture continuously.


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## Dean (Feb 17, 2017)

jemu999 said:


> So aside from DP's chunk feature, Im curious to know how others are handling multiple film cues in Cubase or Logic? _(Don't have time or energy to learn DP)_
> 
> Im currently using Cubase, and have gotten away unscathed using a single session for all previous film projects. But in my most recent project, things got really messy with changes in edits. In fact, it was a nightmare. _(tempo mapping hell!)_
> 
> ...



Definitely 1 project for 1 cue. [tempo/meter changes wont effect any other cues in your score.]

Hopefully you will be working with locked edit,if not,re-import the new vid edit into each session as you go [its not a big deal,all your projects are working off the same video file in all the individual projects]
Import the video always in the same start position and move your cue to where it needs to be in the revised edit/timecode etc.then save that new revised project,..see the links below re simple labeling system that will help you with multible versions of cues etc.

I would suggest getting the film in reels if possible,[better for the nerves to work on the score in sections] also quicker re importing/downloading new edits.

You can bounce your cues to audio as you go and import them into a master score session with the full edit of the vid to see/hear how its all playing out.

VE PRO is a game changer especially when you are working with multible projects/sessions on a film score,.theres a 'preserve' function that allows you to open and close multible projects/sessions without having to reload all your instruments/samples each time.So if you build a score template that works for most of your score you can keep the same template loaded as you swap and change projects [make sense?] Look into it.

A few thread links here re cue/reel organisation that might help?

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/reels-scenes-cues-and-timecode.54440/#post-3972634


http://vi-control.net/community/thr...gth-film-cue-organisation.57873/#post-4028445


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## Ashermusic (Feb 17, 2017)

Logic Pro X now has a Project Alternatives feature that really is helpful when you are doing multiple cues that are similar.


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## jemu999 (Feb 19, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> - New project file for every cue. This way I can make an absolute mess in a single cue, or go crazy with the tempo maps without disturbing any other cues. Any other method leads to pain and suffering. I wind up with 25-30 separate project files for an hour-long television episode and as many as 80 for a five-reel feature film.
> 
> - All built from the same template, which hopefully includes 80% of the sounds you're likely to use in the whole film.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much Charlie. You have shared some excellent tips! I appreciate it. In fact I want to thank everyone. Definitely going to 1 project per cue.


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## Ashermusic (Feb 19, 2017)

But with all due respect to my friend Charlie, don't overlook Logic Pro X's Project Alternatives feature when dealing with cues that are largely the same but with different timings. It is very helpful.


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## ryanstrong (Feb 19, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> - VEPro is nice if you're using lots of Kontakt instruments. With "preserve" turned on, the VEPro setup stays the same as you load various cues in your DAW.





Dean said:


> VE PRO is a game changer especially when you are working with multible projects/sessions on a film score,.theres a 'preserve' function that allows you to open and close multible projects/sessions without having to reload all your instruments/samples each time.



I've never understood why you would want to use Preserve because if you want to change the mix balance of say mic positions on an instrument it doesn't maintain.

For example...

Cue 1
You decide the track needs to be more intimate so you use close mics on the Violas.

With that preserved state of close mics you now move on to Cue 2.

Cue 2
This is a bigger action scene that followed the intimate scene so now you need more room mics of the Violas. You slide the room mics up.

Now you go back to Cue 1 and the settings for Cue 2 have been preserved and now you've lost your intimate sound.

Isn't this the essence of Preserved? Maybe I've misunderstood/misused Preserve.


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## prodigalson (Feb 19, 2017)

yeah, but thats the only way to move quickly between cues without having to reload your VEP metaframe right??


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## ryanstrong (Feb 19, 2017)

prodigalson said:


> yeah, but thats the only way to move quickly between cues without having to reload your VEP metaframe right??


Quickly vs. loosing my entire mix and instrument settings per cue? No thank you.


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## Ashermusic (Feb 19, 2017)

ryanstrong said:


> I've never understood why you would want to use Preserve because if you want to change the mix balance of say mic positions on an instrument it doesn't maintain.
> 
> For example...
> 
> ...



This is why you need different templates for different music. When I want to turn from lush to intimate I am far more likely to use other libraries that n to change mic positions.


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## eschroder (Feb 19, 2017)

I'm doing a film now, by reels, and it's been horrible so the next time will be scene by scene. Curious though... let's say you dig something you wrote in an earlier scene and would like to bring it back later... what is the best way to access that midi data? Just copy from the old session and paste in the new session? This is the one advantage of working by reels is that its very easy to go back and pick out some previous work. 

What do you think think?


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## Ashermusic (Feb 19, 2017)

eschroder said:


> I'm doing a film now, by reels, and it's been horrible so the next time will be scene by scene. Curious though... let's say you dig something you wrote in an earlier scene and would like to bring it back later... what is the best way to access that midi data? Just copy from the old session and paste in the new session? This is the one advantage of working by reels is that its very easy to go back and pick out some previous work.
> 
> What do you think think?




Logic, like Pro Tools, has an Import feature where you can import exactly what you choose: channel strips, content, global info like tempo, keys, etc.


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## resound (Feb 19, 2017)

ryanstrong said:


> Quickly vs. loosing my entire mix and instrument settings per cue? No thank you.


I have my mic faders set to CCs so I can record them on the track and then my mic settings will be recalled with the session.


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## charlieclouser (Feb 19, 2017)

ryanstrong said:


> I've never understood why you would want to use Preserve because if you want to change the mix balance of say mic positions on an instrument it doesn't maintain.
> 
> For example...
> 
> ...



Disclaimer: I rarely use VEPro - only in emergencies where I need a rack of legato cello patches to choose between and layer on the fly across dozens of cues, but....

Isn't the situation you're referring to caused by using Preserve AND Decouple? I thought it worked like this:

Preserve = contents of VEPro are not unloaded / reloaded when switching cues, but all front panel settings of the plugin are polled and saved with the individual DAW projects, and then pushed to VEPro when a new DAW project is loaded.

If Preserve is ON, then you can then, optionally, ALSO select Decouple. Preserve AND Decouple = as before, the contents of VEPro are not unloaded / reloaded when switching cues, but now the front panel settings of the plugin are NOT polled and saved with individual DAW projects, and when loading a new DAW project no front panel settings are pushed to the VEPro setup?

So Preserve ON and Decouple OFF = samples stay loaded but front panel settings of all VEPro instruments can be unique per cue. Preserve ON and Decouple ON = samples stay loaded and front panel settings stay untouched as various cues are loaded.

Am I understanding this wrong? Come on Jay, set us straight!


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Feb 19, 2017)

I do cues in Cubase and master session in Nuendo (or Pro Tools although I can't do surround as I don't have HD) both running on the same computer. You can run multiple instances of Cubase if they're different versions (like 7 and 8) but then you need to have a license from 7 that was upgraded to 8.

The Video Slave seems to be a great alternative and even lets you import all your stems. It's what I'd be using but I'm on PC so I just use Nuendo for the master session (it's also just as expensive as buying another DAW).

One of the composers I normally work with just does it all in 1 session and hasn't had issues but he doesn't get many new cuts. As soon as you do or need to make major changes to a cue, all bets are off and things can easily become a mess.

One great thing about using separate cue sessions is that when you have edits earlier in the picture but none during a cue, all you have to do is reset the start time to the new location. No need to mess with tempos or adding time to get it to line up with the new start time.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Feb 19, 2017)

ryanstrong said:


> Quickly vs. loosing my entire mix and instrument settings per cue? No thank you.



As long as you write it in midi you don't lose anything. I just use midi blips to reset my template when opened. If I want to change something I just write it in and when it opens, it updates to that. Lately I have been creating metaframes for different projects but it's just because I've been using a modular template and need certain things loaded/unloaded. If I want to make radical changes to a patch then I just load it in Cubase.


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## resound (Feb 19, 2017)

Yea


charlieclouser said:


> Disclaimer: I rarely use VEPro - only in emergencies where I need a rack of legato cello patches to choose between and layer on the fly across dozens of cues, but....
> 
> Isn't the situation you're referring to caused by using Preserve AND Decouple? I thought it worked like this:
> 
> ...


I believe that is correct, if decoupled is off then the plugin settings for that instance are saved with the project. So you could decouple your VEPro instance if you make changes to mic levels/etc. and those settings will be pushed to VEPro upon reloading the project.


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## Ashermusic (Feb 19, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> Disclaimer: I rarely use VEPro - only in emergencies where I need a rack of legato cello patches to choose between and layer on the fly across dozens of cues, but....
> 
> Isn't the situation you're referring to caused by using Preserve AND Decouple? I thought it worked like this:
> 
> ...



Totally correct, Charlie. Preserve just means it does not disappear when unconnected. Decouple means that you load your VE Pro template and if your Logic template was saved, it automatically connects to a loaded VE Pro template, Coupled means it will populate an empty VE Pro server project, which sounds like a good idea, but it creates more problems than it solves.


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## charlieclouser (Feb 19, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> Totally correct, Charlie. Preserve just means it does not disappear when unconnected. Decouple means that you load your VE Pro template and if your Logic template was saved, it automatically connects to a loaded VE Pro template, Coupled means it will populate an empty VE Pro server project, which sounds like a good idea, but it creates more problems than it solves.



Good, that's what I thought. Thanks for that, Jay. 

It's kind of a drag though, because Preserve + Coupled is the closest functionality to what I get by using a zillion instances of EXS-24 with "Keep Common Samples In Memory" turned ON - when switching songs, the samples stay loaded but the front panel settings get replaced by those in the newly-loaded song. This way the songs load very quickly but I can still have unique, per-song settings for filter, ADSR, etc. The only part that stays is the sample maps themselves. This is ideal for how I like to work. But using VEPro with Preserve + Coupled always seemed to be problematic - things would unload and reload even when I thought they wouldn't, and it would often unload a whole frame and reload what appeared to be basically the same frame. 

I'm realizing that the smoothest way to work with VEPro seems to be Preserve + Decoupled, so the only thing the newly-loaded song tries to do is re-establish connections with named server instances, but doesn't try to push front panel settings to them. This is a drag for me, and seems to be the cause of the issue that ryanstrong described - you adjust mic mixing in a Kontakt instrument on one cue, then adjust them in another cue, and now the first cue's settings are gone. It appears the only solution for this is to use Preserve + Coupled, which has it's own issues. Drag. I guess Preserve + Decoupled could be fine for those who have a standardized "realistic" sound established that can be used for all of the cues in a project, or route the mic positions separately back to the DAW for individual control there, but... hmmmm.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Feb 19, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> Good, that's what I thought. Thanks for that, Jay.
> 
> It's kind of a drag though, because Preserve + Coupled is the closest functionality to what I get by using a zillion instances of EXS-24 with "Keep Common Samples In Memory" turned ON - when switching songs, the samples stay loaded but the front panel settings get replaced by those in the newly-loaded song. This way the songs load very quickly but I can still have unique, per-song settings for filter, ADSR, etc. The only part that stays is the sample maps themselves. This is ideal for how I like to work. But using VEPro with Preserve + Coupled always seemed to be problematic - things would unload and reload even when I thought they wouldn't, and it would often unload a whole frame and reload what appeared to be basically the same frame.
> 
> I'm realizing that the smoothest way to work with VEPro seems to be Preserve + Decoupled, so the only thing the newly-loaded song tries to do is re-establish connections with named server instances, but doesn't try to push front panel settings to them. This is a drag for me, and seems to be the cause of the issue that ryanstrong described - you adjust mic mixing in a Kontakt instrument on one cue, then adjust them in another cue, and now the first cue's settings are gone. It appears the only solution for this is to use Preserve + Coupled, which has it's own issues. Drag. I guess Preserve + Decoupled could be fine for those who have a standardized "realistic" sound established that can be used for all of the cues in a project, or route the mic positions separately back to the DAW for individual control there, but... hmmmm.



Why don't you just control the mic mixing with midi? I never adjust it on the actual Kontakt instrument gui in VEP. I've never had any issues with things getting messed up when opening sessions except for when I open a project using an old version of my VEP template and forget to load that metaframe. I rarely use the default sound mixed in my template but rather change it for most projects and it's never been an issue. It's different if you're doing more complex mixing directly in the instruments with parameters that can't be accessed through midi but that seems to be rare for most of us.


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## charlieclouser (Feb 19, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Why don't you just control the mic mixing with midi? I never adjust it on the actual Kontakt instrument gui in VEP. I've never had any issues with things getting messed up when opening sessions except for when I open a project using an old version of my VEP template and forget to load that metaframe. I rarely use the default sound mixed in my template but rather change it for most projects and it's never been an issue. It's different if you're doing more complex mixing directly in the instruments with parameters that can't be accessed through midi but that seems to be rare for most of us.



That solution would certainly work. I don't usually need to mess with mic mixing anyway, when I'm concerned about Preserved Kontakt instances it's usually because of more complex and fiddly synth-type instruments that have lots of front-panel tweaks that I want to be unique per cue. For orchestral stuff I can usually just load, Decouple, save, and go. Anyway, most of the orchestral libraries don't really have that much stuff to adjust besides mic mixing - but when I'm using orchestral stuff in EXS I'm usually tweaking ADSR, filter, etc. - and these are usually parameters which aren't even accessible from the front panel of most orchestral Kontakt instruments, so it's no biggie really.


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## Dean (Feb 20, 2017)

eschroder said:


> I'm doing a film now, by reels, and it's been horrible so the next time will be scene by scene. Curious though... let's say you dig something you wrote in an earlier scene and would like to bring it back later... what is the best way to access that midi data? Just copy from the old session and paste in the new session? This is the one advantage of working by reels is that its very easy to go back and pick out some previous work.
> 
> What do you think think?



Always go cue by cue.

I use the same master session/project when Im developing the score,I start a few hours into the session [without picture]and start working out the main themes,key scenes orchestration,variations,,tone.mood and so on] all this music I send to the director as I go along,.find out whats working from the director,..eventually you end up with large pool of approved themes/ideas/styles/tones.

Use this master session as your template for each individual cue [import each reel at the start of the session] then you can copy and paste from the large pool of music you've created further down the session,save it all as you go along through each cue and you soon end with a growing pool of new ideas.

D


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## Dean (Feb 20, 2017)

ryanstrong said:


> I've never understood why you would want to use Preserve because if you want to change the mix balance of say mic positions on an instrument it doesn't maintain.
> 
> For example...
> 
> ...



I know what you mean but you can always add new instruments with different mic settings to your VE Pro template as you go,[as for VE Pro settings]I usually load a few [Kontakt/Play] string/brass instruments [some with a close intimate setting and the other with a 'bigger' sound] and save that moving forward so in the one template you can go from intimate to a bigger sound.If something requires a very different sound or you simply run out of instrument slots of course you can create a new specific template for that set of big action cues, but generally a well loaded VE Pro template with 200 instruments [some with multible Key swtiches is more than enough.]

I did a few large scores recently with 70+ cues and only needed about 5 or 6 different Ve Pro templates. We all have our own ways of course,..whatever works.  
D


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## Dean (Feb 20, 2017)

Ive always used VE Pro decoupled.


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## Jono (Feb 24, 2017)

Just about to start on a feature and they've given me the full edit minus any reels (they had said they wanted to work in reels - as did I). Would you chop up the picture yourself, save multiple projects with the entire video file or go back and ask for the reels?


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## lupaul (Feb 24, 2017)

I would ask for the reels. 
It may bring a lot of problems if you start work on entire video file and later have to sync cues to reels.


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## guydoingmusic (Feb 24, 2017)

jemu999 said:


> So aside from DP's chunk feature, Im curious to know how others are handling multiple film cues in Cubase or Logic? _(Don't have time or energy to learn DP)_
> 
> Im currently using Cubase, and have gotten away unscathed using a single session for all previous film projects. But in my most recent project, things got really messy with changes in edits. In fact, it was a nightmare. _(tempo mapping hell!)_
> 
> ...



@jemu999 I asked the same question a while back and got some very valuable advice in this thread http://vi-control.net/community/threads/managing-cues-feat-length-film.49731/ -- I encourage you to read through it. Literally saved me a lot of headaches by taking suggestions (one person's in particular) given. I hope this will help you as well.


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## Jono (May 15, 2017)

Got the reels. Got started. Got new edit and got very happy I'd asked for the reels

I'm a week away from making it out alive...


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## DS_Joost (May 16, 2017)

In Cubase, the switching between project files is very easy, and you don't even need VEPro. I have it, but don't use it anymore. This is how I do it, and it has been the most painless and effortless for me:

Create 1 project for 1 cue with my master template with all tracks disabled. Start composing and enabling tracks whenever I need them. Save the project. DON'T CLOSE IT. Next cue, take the project from last cue, use it again. Cubase will load the samples again BUT HERE IS THE CATCH: as long as you don't complete shutdown the last project, the new project will load the same samples a lot faster than before. Even a big cue that uses about 25 gigs of RAM (I rarely use more) will load in under a minute. A project with VEPro would take almost as long because it has to disconnect and reconnect again.

So on and so forth.

How many times do you actually switch cues a day? I do that maybe 4 times, 10 at the most on a very productive day.

I like VEPro, but it causes more harm than good to me in the long run. The above is the best compromise (because it will always be a compromise) between flexibility, speed of loading and organisation. Enabling and disabling tracks has been the best thing to have come to Cubase in the last 10 years. It truly is a game changer.

Good luck!


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 16, 2017)

DS_Joost said:


> A project with VEPro would take almost as long because it has to disconnect and reconnect again.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck!



The thing is, it only takes a few seconds to connect (if you leave VEP coupled). The problem with disabling tracks is that you still need to load them when you're auditioning tracks to determine what you need. You probably already know what you're looking for, but I prefer to have everything loaded to I can instantly try out different patches. Plus, VEP takes all of the strain off of my DAW.


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## JaikumarS (Apr 5, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> - New project file for every cue. This way I can make an absolute mess in a single cue, or go crazy with the tempo maps without disturbing any other cues. Any other method leads to pain and suffering. I wind up with 25-30 separate project files for an hour-long television episode and as many as 80 for a five-reel feature film.
> 
> - All built from the same template, which hopefully includes 80% of the sounds you're likely to use in the whole film.
> 
> ...



Hello Charlie,

May I know how you use the timecode calculator in your workflow when a new edit arrives?

Thank you.


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## charlieclouser (Apr 5, 2018)

JaikumarS said:


> Hello Charlie,
> 
> May I know how you use the timecode calculator in your workflow when a new edit arrives?
> 
> Thank you.



When a new edit arrives, a change log will be sent with it, showing exactly what's been changed from the previous version. If the editor doesn't send a change log, I'd immediately get on the phone to the assistant editor - who's usually the one dealing with logging those changes as well as outputting the video into my desired format. But on every project I've been on they have always sent me a very detailed change log. It would say things like:

- At 02.11.34.12 = extended shot of explosion = added 00.00.03.12

- At 02.12.14.21 = removed Jack's reaction shot = removed 00.00.06.04

- At 02.13.04.21 = extended shot of door by 12 frames, shortened following shot of Jack by 12 frames = no net change.

That's not the exact format, but it's basically the info that's conveyed. Exactly where the beginning of the affected shot is, how much it has been lengthened or shortened, and so forth. If it's just one shot that's been lengthened or shortened, I probably don't need to break out the timecode calculator. But if it's a bunch of shots within a single music cue that have been messed with, then it's just simple math. Add or subtract the amount they specified and move your locked markers, then hammer on the tempo/meter map until stuff lines up again. It's easier if they've messed with stuff where there's no music; then you type in the cue's old start point, add the total amount of added time, and the result will be your new start time. If there's a bunch of changes, you might have to add / subtract them all up to get a single number which can then be added / subtracted from your old cue's start point.

It's possible to do this with a normal calculator or pencil and paper but it will make you lose your mind. Having a timecode calculator that can correctly deal with 24 / 30 frames per second, as well as hours-minutes-seconds makes it so much easier.

But to be fair I've only had to break out the timecode calculator a few times over the last 15 years. I guess I've been lucky, but by the time I'm working on the music the picture is pretty much a lock. Maybe there will be four or five tiny changes before the dub, usually because a digital VFX shot didn't look right and needed to be shorter - something like that. But the horror stories I read on the internet about endlessly-changing picture edits across months and months - that never happens to me. Lucky I guess.

On the tv series I've done it's always, always, *always* locked before I step in the room - there just isn't time to keep fiddling with the cut when it's going to air in 10 days or less. Any fiddling with the cut just makes life hell for the composer, but way more so for the dialog and effects editors. In 250+ episodes of tv I've probably had less than ten instances where the cut changed after the spotting session, and in most (all?) of those they just said, "Work to the cut you've been working to, and we'll just deal with it on the dub stage as a music edit." Bing, bang, boom, my music editor chops and crossfades and it's dealt with.


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