# What does this really mean Apple dumping Intel



## novaburst (Jun 22, 2020)

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Apple ditches Intel for ARM processors in Mac computers with Big Sur | Apple WWDC | The Guardian







amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org


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## novaburst (Jun 22, 2020)

I guess there is going to be a ton of used Apple machines for sale


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## kgdrum (Jun 22, 2020)

novaburst said:


> I guess there is going to be a ton of used Apple machines for sale




Correct and Apple induces a new buying cycle that propels users to buy the next generation of Macs.


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## LamaRose (Jun 22, 2020)

APPLE DUMPLINGS...MMM


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## Rory (Jun 22, 2020)

novaburst said:


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Given that The Guardian and its tech writers, starting with Mr. Gibbs, are not exactly pro-Apple, that's an interesting take.


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## GtrString (Jun 22, 2020)

Hmm, it sounds like there is a high risk compromizing daw platforms, music software ect. with this move from Apple. Maybe Logic will be the only obvious choice when using an Apple computer in the future.

Its hard to see whats in it for the users?


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## Oliver (Jun 22, 2020)

it means hopefully people won't buy apple anymore...
it's just overhyped...


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## babylonwaves (Jun 23, 2020)

The keynote was horrible. As somebody else said, it looked like a Scientology presentation. The Mac-related news was good news though. Apple showed already that they can move to a different processor. And if this new hardware has a better thermal design and better performance, why not? It'll take time and for the transition, we have a compatibility layer (which seems to be performant) and a universal application format (which is convenient and good for those who want to keep their 86x hardware for some time).


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## charlieclouser (Jun 23, 2020)

BRB buying more AAPL shares.


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## Mornats (Jun 23, 2020)

Rory said:


> Given that The Guardian and its tech writers, starting with Mr. Gibbs, are not exactly pro-Apple, that's an interesting take.



Yeah that seemed fairly positive about the move.

Interesting question from me about this but first some thoughts so you know where I'm coming from. I've used and tried Macs for both work and DAW use and eventually migrated back to Windows as it's a more comfortable experience for me amongst other things. One thing I've never really understood is people buying 5-6 year old Macs as their new system but I will bow down to their superior wisdom and, most importantly, experience in doing this.

So my question is, are those who have bought older Macs, most likely trashcan Mac Pros, worried about their investment now or do you still have confidence in them, especially with the emulation/compatibility looking quite good from the start?

By the way, I'm hoping this doesn't come across as flammatory and it's not a PC Vs Mac comment, I'm just curious about how it's affected people's choice of buying older, yet still good, Apple hardware.


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## N.Caffrey (Jun 23, 2020)

babylonwaves said:


> The keynote was horrible. As somebody else said, it looked like a Scientology presentation. The Mac-related news was good news though. Apple showed already that they can move to a different processor. And if this new hardware has a better thermal design and better performance, why not? It'll take time and for the transition, we have a compatibility layer (which seems to be performant) and a universal application format (which is convenient and good for those who want to keep their 86x hardware for some time).


Horrible? Lol thought it was pretty cool actually, great production value.


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## Geoff Grace (Jun 23, 2020)

One thing Apple dumping Intel for ARM-based hardware means is that you could theoretically run macOS 11 on high-end iPads. Perhaps there will be touch screen Macs as well. 

Best,

Geoff


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## ridgero (Jun 23, 2020)

It could trigger a chain reaction. If its good, x86 could be ditched in general in some years.


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## novaburst (Jun 23, 2020)

I think the most interesting thing is the new Apple CPU is going to be based on that of Android phones or at least i phones 

It will be interesting to see if this will run DAWs more stable than Intel and or what issues it brings to Plugin and VST Developers


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## MartinH. (Jun 23, 2020)

Personally I think the only reason Apple does this is so that it can raise the walls of its walled garden higher and/or have a higher profit margin on the hardware they sell. But I hope it won't be too big of a disruption for y'all! Not super optimistic though...




ridgero said:


> It could trigger a chain reaction. If its good, x86 could be ditched in general in some years.



You mean only in Apple land, or do you think windows would switch too? I don't think Windows would switch, and customers wouldn't want that either. 




novaburst said:


> It will be interesting to see if this will run DAWs more stable



Why would it? If a DAW crashes it's not because the CPU puts out the wrong calculation every now and then, it's because of programming flaws in some software (sometimes the DAW, sometimes a plugin, driver or whatever).


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## Symfoniq (Jun 23, 2020)

novaburst said:


> I think the most interesting thing is the new Apple CPU is going to be based on that of Android phones or at least i phones
> 
> It will be interesting to see if this will run DAWs more stable than Intel and or what issues it brings to Plugin and VST Developers



The only thing Apple's A-series chips share with Android CPUs is an instruction set (ARM). In terms of physical silicon and performance, Apple's A-series CPUs are far ahead of the competition.


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## ridgero (Jun 23, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Personally I think the only reason Apple does this is so that it can raise the walls of its walled garden higher and/or have a higher profit margin on the hardware they sell. But I hope it won't be too big of a disruption for y'all! Not super optimistic though...
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Everything is possible from now on.

ARM is a just another chip architecture. I‘m sure this will be the best choice for regular desktop stuff, but I don’t know how it will be for professionals.

If its good, the whole industry may will jump on, time will tell.

„Apple is ditching Intel“ is only the half of the story.

„Apple is ditching x86“ should be the title.


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## gpax (Jun 23, 2020)

Per the OP’s title: What does Apple dumping Intel “really” mean? 

It means another thread of self-avowed non-Mac forum members speaking as if they are personally invested in debating (or debunking) the future of the Mac. 

Just a hunch, but I’m guessing that‘s what _this_ particular thread is really about.


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## Rory (Jun 23, 2020)

gpax said:


> Per the OP’s title: What does Apple dumping Intel “really” mean?
> 
> It means another thread of self-avowed non-Mac forum members speaking as if they are personally invested in debating (or debunking) the future of the Mac.
> 
> Just a hunch, but I’m guessing that‘s what _this_ particular thread is really about.



Got a chuckle from that.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 23, 2020)

Nothing sinister about it. Apple laid out the reasons plainly in the presentation.
Sure, ultimately there's more profit in it for Apple, but they're a private company. That's how these things work.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 23, 2020)

Mornats said:


> Yeah that seemed fairly positive about the move.
> 
> Interesting question from me about this but first some thoughts so you know where I'm coming from. I've used and tried Macs for both work and DAW use and eventually migrated back to Windows as it's a more comfortable experience for me amongst other things. One thing I've never really understood is people buying 5-6 year old Macs as their new system but I will bow down to their superior wisdom and, most importantly, experience in doing this.
> 
> ...



i am absolutely glad I did not buy the 2019 MP! I am absolutely glad I have a cheese grater Which cost a HELL of a lot less then newer offerings and so far I’ve had it five years and doing everything I want and it’s good for a few more years. It will probably Never move past mojave so at some point in the future when logicpro 11 comes out to Match OS11, then I will scratch along with what I have for a coupe years and see what apple eventually delivers on arm apparently, to see if it will meet my needs.

beforr yesterday I had hackintosh in my mind as a potential alternative but I see that as a dead option now. Apple will likely end hackintoshing forever with ARM.

It’s left to be seen what Apple will produce in the future for ARM based high end workstations and so pointless to speculate. We just have to wait and see.

i have invested a lot in my studio for pci hardware and connected devices that give me a workflow I really like that goes Beyond merely the computer. I’m sure Apple and os11 are going to move on and I will stay behind for quite a while just running my older software on intel and pci until I just can’t stand it any longer that I’m not using the latest software features but I expect that is five years away and none of us have any idea what Apple is going to produce between now and then.

Cheesgrater and trashcan should be considered as affordable stopgap measures to get through this transition. In my mind this arm change makes that strategy even more relevant then ever!


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 23, 2020)

this article is relevant here:









4 big problems Apple’s ARM-based Macs will need to solve


ARM Macs could rock the boat for professional creator applications, gaming, AR and more




www.tomsguide.com





A good read. some of the challenges that third party devs will encounter during this transition.

Just one thing, for example, most 3rd party devs do not code their apps entirely in the MacOS develosphere. They code their apps using technologies that makes it possible to release both windows and OSX versions of their app. That is a deep topic on its own, but it usually means they are, for example, not using Apple's swift programming language, they are probably using C++. They are avoiding directly using Apple's SDK api's, instead using frameworks that makes it possible to code once and build twice to the two platforms. These frameworks do NOT come from Apple. Apple has no interest in supporting development to run on windows. Third parties provide these frameworks, or some developers make their own frameworks! Its a lot of work and there are many challenges to solve, some of those challenges take years and years to work out and even today not all of the challenges are solved perfectly.

With the change to ARM..just imagine all those developers that have spent decades figuring out how to code their app in a way to build for both OSX and Windows...and now an entirely new architecture...they are looking at an absolutely overwhelming amount of work in some cases. They will not be able to simply build it in a few days using Xcode, as suggested by Apple. That works for Apple and their own products because they are not using cross platform frameworks to begin with, they are using entirely their own frameworks....which by the way, their own framework is now going to be a cross-platform framework...but not one that supports windows!

So put yourself in the shoes of 3rd party devs now......

The above article is a good read... The transition to ARM is not going to be smooth unless you are strictly in the Apple sphere and don't care at all about any products that need to also run on windows. LogicPro or Final Cut will only run on Mac...they will be fine. Lots of other DAW's, and thousands of plugins...they have challenges ahead. I'm sure they will work it all out eventually, but give is some years to get there.


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## Mornats (Jun 23, 2020)

I really hope it doesn't make developers have to choose one platform over the other. That's a difficult choice for the developers (losing user base) and bad for those on the platform no longer supported.

Judging from my time here on VI-C, I've been surprised at how many composers, whether pros or hobbyists like me, are on Windows. I'd have expected the vast majority to be on Mac if I'm honest. So hopefully this split (and I wouldn't hazard a guess at the percentages) will mean it's still viable to support both platforms.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 23, 2020)

I am very confident developers will work through the challenges to support both platforms. But its just clear that it will not be smooth and easy as suggested by Apple yesterday as well. There is going to be years of pain ahead...and me personally I would not even remotely consider buying an ARM mac for at least a few more years. Intel will still be the choice for musicians for at least a couple more years mainly because some prominent developers are going to have lots of challenges ahead moving onto ARM to support it. they will get there, but its going to take a while.


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## clisma (Jun 23, 2020)

I presume Melda Productions must be fuming and ready to ditch Macs


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## jcrosby (Jun 23, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> I am very confident developers will work through the challenges to support both platforms. But its just clear that it will not be smooth and easy as suggested by Apple yesterday as well. There is going to be years of pain ahead...and me personally I would not even remotely consider buying an ARM mac for at least a few more years. Intel will still be the choice for musicians for at least a couple more years mainly because some prominent developers are going to have lots of challenges ahead moving onto ARM to support it. they will get there, but its going to take a while.


I also assume this means many developers will have to hire additional programmers to handle this. This could have adverse effects like the cost of plugins increasing, or some developers simply having to jump ship on macos because they simply don't have the budget to bring in a team of dedicated coders... Granted I'm not a developer so I don't fully understand just how complicated this is, but it does seem like something like this is fairly likely/predictable outcome... At least for smaller scale developers.


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## Michael Antrum (Jun 24, 2020)

Well everyone has been bitching about the performance and thermal issues with the MacBook Pros (some of which I know are self inflicted with the 'thin' obsession).

So Apple decide to do something about it. Apple's move from PowerPC to Intel back in the day proved to be a smart move, despite the short term pain that lasted a couple of years. If the advantages of ARM are significant, and I've no reason to suspect they won't be, I think it could end up being the same story - short term pain for long term gain.

It's easy for me to be philosophical though, as I replaced my MacBook Pro with a Razer Blade 15 last year before the 16" MacBook Pro was released. If I'd just bought a MacBook Pro, or even worse, a new Mac Pro, I'd be less impressed.

Whilst the Razer is a great machine, and half the price of the MacBook Pro, I do miss OSX and a number of other things, so I may well be tempted back to Apple land when they are sorted out. In fact, I believe the by the time the Razer is 4 years old might well be the perfect time to jump back into Apple.

In the desktop arena, My faithful old Mac Pro 2009, which has been fully upgraded, has proven yet again to be the best computer I have ever owned. Now mainly used as a VEPro Slave for My 2015 iMac 5k, it just keeps on going, and going, and going... what a machine !

So I think it's time to sit tight and wait for things to play out over the next couple of years.

In so many ways, however, Apple is not the company it was under Steve Jobs. It's the little things that they do that don't make sense, the things he would have obsessed over, the minor details that Apple used to take care of, that they simply don't any more.

For example, in Staffpad on the iPad, if you need to re-download a sample library you previously bought, you effectively have to 're-puchase' it and it looks like you are going to charge another £ 99.00 to your card. 
After you've 'purchased it', only then are you informed you have already bought it and will be downloading it for no charge. It's clumsy, misleading and most 'un-Apple' like, and wouldn't have been tolerated under the 'ancien regime'....


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## jonnybutter (Jun 24, 2020)

Mornats said:


> So my question is, are those who have bought older Macs, most likely trashcan Mac Pros, worried about their investment now or do you still have confidence in them, especially with the emulation/compatibility looking quite good from the start?



I'm not worried at all. I have a trashcan, whose CPU I may even upgrade if I can get a decent price on it. I am completely confident I can get several more years' good service out of it. It's been quite cost effective for me (everybody's different in this regard though). I have really soured on Apple as a company over the years, but I don't mind admitting when they do something well, which I expect they will do with this transition.


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## Diablo IV (Jun 24, 2020)

Will I be able to get a Macbook pro for just 300 bucks in the future (used), that would be great. 🤣


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## ProfoundSilence (Jun 24, 2020)

funny thing, catalina caused more than one dev to finally *snap* a little - because they are sick and tired of apple tugging them around as an afterthought. I wonder how many will feel this way after the transition to ARM. 

ARM and x86 have some key differences, and I would bet there is a very small % of this forum who will actually know how it will play out with DAW and VI. the TLDR as I understand it, is that x86 is designed to handle complex instruction, while ARM is really efficient at simple instructions. How that plays out in sample world + plugin chains + asio remains to be seen.


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## wayne_rowley (Jun 24, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> ARM and x86 have some key differences, and I would bet there is a very small % of this forum who will actually know how it will play out with DAW and VI. the TLDR as I understand it, is that x86 is designed to handle complex instruction, while ARM is really efficient at simple instructions. How that plays out in sample world + plugin chains + asio remains to be seen.



I’ll try...

Intel chips are what we call a CISC architecture - Complex Instruction Set CPU. ARM are RISC - Reduced Instruction Set CPU. What does that mean..? CPU instructions boil down to fairly simple things most of the time... add this value to that value, move this value from this memory location to that memory location etc. With CISC processors those instructions can become quite complex and specialist but may take several CPU clock cycles to complete, while with RISC the instruction set is smaller and simpler, but more instructions may need to be run to achieve the same task.

Which is better? Which is quicker? Frankly a lot of it comes down to the quality of the compiler that translates human readable/writable code to CPU instruction code. But the processor architecture has _no baring _on how complex a bit of software is or can be, because ultimately computers crunch numbers, they just do it in different ways.

In terms of migrating programs from one to the other, that depends more on how the program is written. Anything in a high-level language (such as Swift or Objective C - we are talking Apple) can be easily recompiled. There may need to be some optimisation done to tweak things, but that will likely be minimal. You also need to have any supporting libraries and APIs compiled and available as well. But Anything that involves assembler code will be more troublesome - the code has to be re-written for the new CPU.

I would imagine that most DAWs and Plug-ins are written in a high-level language so a recompile should be all that is needed to go from Intel to ARM. For device manufacturers, drivers and similar (thing Universal Audio etc.) then it’s likely to be more complicated, and I suspect some of their current product line may never work with ARM Macs. I’d like to be wrong on that.

Wayne


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## VinRice (Jun 24, 2020)

TSMC is kicking Intel's ass fabrication-wise. Apple has its hooks into TSMC, especially now that Huawei have become pariahs. Apple has built up world-class RISC chip design expertise over the years. The difference between Watch, iPad, iPhone and Apple TV is interface and use-case. It's time for the desktop and laptop machines to be on that continuum. Apple expertise in designing auxiliary chips for specialist and specific tasks (including graphics) will allow it to create some performance and feature blue-sky between its machines and the PC herd. Perfectly logical and very Apple.


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## KallumS (Jun 24, 2020)

Apple has a habit of dragging the tech world into the future kicking and screaming, based on past experiences I think this will be a success with major tech companies such as Dell following in the years after.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 24, 2020)

RISC has been around a long time and never really taken hold. Arguably that had a lot to do with MS Windows insistance on continuing with CISC. We shall see what happens in the next 5 years. This is not the first time Apple was using RISC...the Power Macintosh line was RISC also. They changed to Intel, probably more for practical reasons...since at that time...the manufacturing of the world was just more geared up to keep making Intel CISC chips, etc.. So they joined the bandwagon and here we are now. RISC does have some advantages that just have never really taken hold...but mainly because of those practical cost of production concerns.

We still have the issue that the vast majority of the world are using MS Windows on PC's....ie....CISC. I do not think Apple will be able to drag Microsoft over to RISC. 

In the end, I think Apple will make their new RISC ARM CPU's perform and everyone will be happy with it. its just the transition that is going to hurt and its going to take some time.

For the next couple years, everyone here is well advised to stick with Intel macs. After that....let's dream of an awesome RISC tower of power.


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## rnb_2 (Jun 24, 2020)

KallumS said:


> Apple has a habit of dragging the tech world into the future kicking and screaming, based on past experiences I think this will be a success with major tech companies such as Dell following in the years after.



Exactly this - Windows OEMs operate on extremely thin margins, so it is very difficult for any of them to break out of the pack and gain substantial market share with a new idea that drives up cost. Apple has room in their pricing to try new ideas if they want to push things in a particular direction.


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## rnb_2 (Jun 24, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> We still have the issue that the vast majority of the world are using MS Windows on PC's....ie....CISC. I do not think Apple will be able to drag Microsoft over to RISC.



That's only true if you look exclusively at the traditional PC market. In broader terms, the vast majority of the world are using Android and iOS/iPadOS on mobile devices.

Windows on ARM is already a thing, though not purchasable yet - it only exists for particular OEMs. I expect that to start changing in the next 2-3 years, though a lot of that will depend on Qualcomm. ARM has a number of built-in advantages over Intel (and some disadvantages), but Windows on ARM will be overwhelmingly dependent on Qualcomm for processors (Samsung may become a player here), and Qualcomm is routinely about 18 months behind Apple in processor performance. If that doesn't change, Apple will have another key differentiator to justify premium pricing, as they will no longer be trying to sell MacBooks that use the same processors as all the Windows OEMs.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 24, 2020)

well that brings up a completely different discussion which is whether the world is going to move away from desktop computers entirely, which would not bode well for us as music makers frankly. 

If you want to conflate mobile and handheld devices together with desktop computing then it clouds the issue really. The business world will be using mostly CISC based windows PC's for at least another decade.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 24, 2020)

and as I said, people have been pushing the benefits of RISC literally for decades already. Back in the 90's Sun Micrososystems and Apple were both trying to push it. Never took hold in the business world, which has been centered around Intel and MS Windows. While its true that Windows (and linux) has been made to run on ARM, generally those devices have been regarded as low performance devices and the choice of ARM in those cases was for cost savings, less battery etc...not performance. We are a very long ways away from anything other than a pipe dream that the MS windows world is suddenly going to pump out high performance MS windows desktops built on ARM. And that tune was being whistled decades ago as well...and here we are still on CISC in the office place.


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## rnb_2 (Jun 24, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> well that brings up a completely different discussion which is whether the world is going to move away from desktop computers entirely, which would not bode well for us as music makers frankly.
> 
> If you want to conflate mobile and handheld devices together with desktop computing then it clouds the issue really. The business world will be using mostly CISC based windows PC's for at least another decade.



That's the point, though - this move by Apple shows that there is no longer (for them) a distinction between mobile and traditional form factors. I believe that Apple will be able to produce ARM-based laptops with integrated graphics that blow away most of the Windows PC laptop market - everything but the high end gaming/engineering configs - in both performance and battery life within the next 12 months. They'll be able to produce desktops that are at least competitive in CPU performance with Intel desktops, while having better GPU performance and using much less energy (and being much quieter as a side effect), in the same time period.

The big question, as I said, is whether Qualcomm (or Samsung, if they decide to become a major supplier) will be able to produce chips that can get near Apple's combination of performance and energy usage in the near term. Current Windows on ARM laptops are, as you said, notable primarily for battery life, not performance. If Qualcomm can't produce viable alternatives to Intel in both performance and energy usage, then you may be right about how long WIntel holds on with business computing.

But Apple will demonstrate that it *can* be done, and if the Windows world can't come along, they'll start to look like dinosaurs pretty quickly.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 24, 2020)

MS windows will not look any more like dinosaurs now then Apple tried to say they would back in the 90's. There are innumerable reasons why the business world is completely locked into MS Windows, which is unlikely to change for at least 10 years. Its also very unlikely for PC architecture to change over to RISC. 

Apple will be going on its own here....for better or worse...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 24, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> for better or worse



My educated guess based on talking to a guy who knows a guy is that it'll be for better.

Remember Pro Tools TDM, when the argument for running plug-ins on dedicated Motorola DSP chips was... that they were dedicated? This is likely to be similar, only the economy of scale will come into play.

As I said, no computer company has ever come out with new models that are less powerful than the ones that preceded them.

(I know, there was a Mac Mini, etc., but you get the point.)


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 24, 2020)

god you are so good at constantly quoting me out of context with the wrong meaning.

i was not meaning to say new macs will be worse then old ones. Duh

But the situation getting us there will not be smooth...and "for better or worse" simply means the entire big picture of everything related to using computers now, transition and future.....and I was referring specifically to Apple going to RISC while MS windows will not. For better or worse in the grand scheme of things... Let's hope they don't make them slower....hehe... but...I personally think some of the early ones might be slower...


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## lumcas (Jun 24, 2020)

I'm looking forward to cheap and powerful Raspberry Pi Hackintoshes


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 24, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> god you are so good at constantly quoting me out of context with the wrong meaning



I'm not God. Why are you accusing me of quoting you out of context with the wrong meaning?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 24, 2020)

Seriously, "for better or worse" doesn't mean worse and I'm not taking anything you said in *any* context - in fact I'm not really sure why your gonads are in the uproar position.

I think it'll be better, that's all. The guy who knows a guy - and he really does - said told me that these chips are going to be highly optimized. That's all.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 24, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I'm not God. Why are you accusing me of quoting you out of context with the wrong meaning?



Because you do it often, you even did it again just now where you inferred that I was naming you “god” which was obviously not how I was using the word.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 24, 2020)

Yes, quite right.

What you're missing is that I'm just kidding. 

Did someone piss in your Wheaties? I truly don't give a FF about ARM chips - this is just an idle discussion and I'm not disagreeing with anything you wrote. My only point is that I think the chips are going to be an improvement. That's all.

Oy.


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## DovesGoWest (Jun 26, 2020)

Well given this is the world I live in as a day job I at least have some insight. What Apple are doing is what they have done before as a result of been a victim of their own success.

it’s a pretty accepted thing now that windows based pcs/laptops are disposable units and most people replace/upgrade them every few years and the upgrading route is fairly straightforward .

Apple’s approach has always been the sealed unit so it’s not upgradable but is robust and does its job some 10years after it was built. Here is the crux of apple’s problem someone buys a MacBook and 10 years later it still works, in that time Apple made no more cash of the consumer. So they bring out faster newer stuff and less people buy as their existing kit is fine so prices go up etc etc

So Apple switched to Intel from the PowerPC/RISC this meant all software has to be recompiled for the new hardware, resulting in old kit becoming obsolete and forcing people to buy the new Intel based kit. Apple happy as selling lots of new hardware, job done

Now Apple find themselves in the exact same place again on the Intel platform, new machines etc that aren’t selling. So what do they do ........ switch back to RISC meaning all software has to be recompiled for it and Intel based hardware will be obsolete. So everyone goes and buys new machines, Apple happy again

This is Apple history repeating, don’t get me wrong I love Apple and Wintel but if you live in a Mac world then they have you by the balls


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## VinRice (Jun 27, 2020)

Cynicism is the laziest and smallest of attitudes. Ignorance masquerading as insight.


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## gpax (Jun 27, 2020)

I actually find these kinds of threads to be condescending, particularly when they (mis) characterize others choice and informed decisions as a narrative of victimhood and/or codependency.


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## DovesGoWest (Jun 27, 2020)

Just to clarify I am certainly not characterising people choices , making them victims, been a cynic or ignorant.

This is a simply a matter of business for Apple to generate revenue. As stated they are a victim if their own success. If their hardware wasn’t so stable/reliable/robust then people would upgrade more frequently. It’s got to the stage where they need to force a change to generate new revenue.

Microsoft and Sony have done the same with the Xbox and PSP using hardware an software. It’s all just business new version of games comes out you want but it only works on V2 consoles and you have a V1 console. You have a choice either buy a new console or forgo the new game.

Ultimately that’s a decision every Apple owner will have to make as well, if I want new version of software then upgrade hardware. The kicker is the fact that Apple also make software as well that’s used in the audio and film markets, so you can guarantee the new version will only work on the new hardware


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## seclusion3 (Jun 27, 2020)

Looking forward to seeing a product used to its full potential. I feel like my iMac isn't using all its abilities when I use it with Logic even less then 50% and there are warnings. My bet is that we may not see a huge leap in processor speed, but we will see a processor be able to be pushed to near max and still work and not overheat, and blow the CPU's outa the water. I am excited to see this. One of the developer videos Craig spoke that " we finally just let the guys loose" in the lab. Though I'm sure they already have a higher performance CPU then what the iPad uses.


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## thevisi0nary (Jun 28, 2020)

Moving over to arm is a good thing and an even better thing that apple is the one doing it first because I don't use apple. It is still largely in it's infancy but it is a more efficient architecture with lower power consumption. The growing pains come from developers needing to recompile (terminology?) their software to work with the new architecture. 

The ipad chip performs as fast as some i7 chips, and thats a mobile arm chip with passive cooling. At the very least, for laptops and mobile devices the proposition is extremely exciting.


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## DovesGoWest (Jun 28, 2020)

Interestingly is windows on arm has been around for a while now but not many manufacturers have built the hardware and sticking with Intel. The ARM architecture brings 2 major things power consumption aka battery life and connectivity. Now Microsoft announced the surface pro x which is ARM based so guessing this will compete with the MacBook. I used to have a surface laptop for work and could get around 7hrs out if it which as a software engineer which was fine for me

one question that baffles me is MacBook users have always said how great battery life was and now they want/need more. Also I know a lot of producers use MacBooks but is that solely because they can’t afford the iMac/Mac Pro. If the desktop macs were the same price as the MacBooks which would you pick, as ARM really brings nothing to the desktop world


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## DovesGoWest (Jun 28, 2020)

thevisi0nary said:


> Moving over to arm is a good thing and an even better thing that apple is the one doing it first because I don't use apple.


Sorry but Apple is behind Microsoft on this, windows on ARM has been out for a good while now. They also announced Surface Pro X which will be ARM based, it can run native 32bit and 64bit ARM apps as well as been able to run x86 32bit apps under emulation. The big problem is it can’t run x64bit apps, so any software not available in 32bit (Cubase) will have to be recompiled.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 28, 2020)

Windows on arm has been around a while but what a lot of people don’t realize is that those arm windows devices can hardly run any apps, because the vast majority of windows apps are compiled only for x86. Nobody in their right mind is going to run cubase emulated.


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## DovesGoWest (Jun 28, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> Windows on arm has been around a while but what a lot of people don’t realize is that those arm windows devices can hardly run any apps, because the vast majority of windows apps are compiled only for x86. Nobody in their right mind is going to run cubase emulated.


Windows arm can only run 32bit x86 apps, my point was that Microsoft already have windows arm and there has been little uptake from either hardware or software makers. So the natural conclusion if the hardware companies aren’t building machine s would be either cost is too high or there is no demand. Microsoft already had a large chunk of the core windows 10 running on arm so this wasn’t a big deal for them.

the only reason Apple can do this is because they control the software and hardware, the only people that will lose out are consumers who will be forced to upgrade. So start saving another $2500+ for your next Logic upgrade oh an you’ll get another 8hrs battery life thrown in for when you can’t be bothered to plug it into the wall

be interesting to see if the prices of intel macs fall, might become a cheap windows laptop


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## gpax (Jun 28, 2020)

DovesGoWest said:


> Just to clarify I am certainly not characterising people choices , making them victims, been a cynic or ignorant.
> 
> This is a simply a matter of business for Apple to generate revenue. As stated they are a victim if their own success. If their hardware wasn’t so stable/reliable/robust then people would upgrade more frequently. It’s got to the stage where they need to force a change to generate new revenue.
> 
> ...


I stand by my critique. I know when someone feels like they must educate or enlighten me on the “behind the scenes” forces guiding the tools I’ve used and researched exhaustively since 1993. 

I also know that when people in my life have used the rhetorical “I love X, but...” it usually means there is more agenda than actual love. 

No, I do not believe you necessarily have malicious intent, even as your narrative of the ecosystem bears little or no resemblance to my experience - I’ve never felt forced to make an upgrade decision, nor have I felt grabbed by the body parts. I do think you came believing you needed to deflate something here, before it even gets underway, just as the thread title invites.


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## DovesGoWest (Jun 28, 2020)

gpax said:


> I stand by my critique. I know when someone feels like they must educate or enlighten me on the “behind the scenes” forces guiding the tools I’ve used and researched exhaustively since 1993.
> 
> I also know that when people in my life have used the rhetorical “I love X, but...” it usually means there is more agenda than actual love.
> 
> No, I do not believe you necessarily have malicious intent, even as your narrative of the ecosystem bears little or no resemblance to my experience - I’ve never felt forced to make an upgrade decision, nor have I felt grabbed by the body parts. I do think you came believing you needed to deflate something here, before it even gets underway, just as the thread title invites.


I doff my cap to you kind sir  I do own all the i devices and love them, I want a MacBook but can’t justify the cost as well as knowing I’m locked into what I buy, given the latest change in direction it’s put me off buying one now for a few more years


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## thevisi0nary (Jun 28, 2020)

DovesGoWest said:


> Sorry but Apple is behind Microsoft on this, windows on ARM has been out for a good while now. They also announced Surface Pro X which will be ARM based, it can run native 32bit and 64bit ARM apps as well as been able to run x86 32bit apps under emulation. The big problem is it can’t run x64bit apps, so any software not available in 32bit (Cubase) will have to be recompiled.



This is false. As far as standard computing systems Apple already has a strong hardware and software ecosystem, Windows has nothing comparable on Arm and it's why the Surface Pro X was largely a dud. Makes no difference if they have been out longer, the practical usability is not there, and emulating on Windows arm takes a performance dive. The benefits of Arm are only there when the software is designed for it (not emulated). The main takeaway is that because Apple is so large and influential, their transition to Arm is a big incentive for software developers to get on board, and they already have some experience making apps for ipads on arm.


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## DovesGoWest (Jun 28, 2020)

thevisi0nary said:


> This is false. As far as standard computing systems Apple already has a strong hardware and software ecosystem, Windows has nothing comparable on Arm and it's why the Surface Pro X was largely a dud. Makes no difference if they have been out longer, the practical usability is not there, and emulating on Windows arm takes a performance dive. The benefits of Arm are only there when the software is designed for it (not emulated). The main takeaway is that because Apple is so large and influential, their transition to Arm is a big incentive for software developers to get on board, and they already have some experience making apps for ipads on arm.


LOL Windows was on ARM in tech terms a long time ago now, the Surface Pro X is not a dud the problem is no 3rd part software companies are recompiling ARM versions of their software. Microsoft control the Surface hardware no different to Apple and brought out an ARM version to test the waters. The thing is there are a thousand and one other hardware manufacturers who make Intel based machines for windows and they have seen no demand to make an ARM version, with no hardware then no software will come chicken n egg situation.

With Apple they control the chicken and egg so they can change to ARM, there is no incentive at all for software developers they are been forced by Apple as there is no alternative, its either recompile or you wont work anymore. Your point of Apple been for "large and influential" is pretty mute, look at the market shares of Microsoft, Apple, Google etc. Yes they write and compile "Apps" for iOS believe it or not i do as well professionally and guess what I write and compile them on a Windows machine and deploy to iOS, Apps are a different ball game. Recoding and recompile the likes of Logic and Final Cut is not a simple process, imagine what would happen if some of the big 3rd party software companies turned round and said they werent going to support ARM and stick with Intel

So as i said before if your a Logic Pro user start saving for the next upgrade which will cost thousands and comes with a free new MacBook.


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## VinRice (Jun 28, 2020)

DovesGoWest said:


> This is a simply a matter of business for Apple to generate revenue. As stated they are a victim if their own success. If their hardware wasn’t so stable/reliable/robust then people would upgrade more frequently. It’s got to the stage where they need to force a change to generate new revenue.



I'm sorry but your entire thesis is simplistic garbage. Do you actually imagine this is how the SVP's of a $1.5 trillion company actually think? Like a mom & pop store needing to bilk their customers out of a few extra dollars to pay the rent? "It’s got to the stage where they need to force a change to generate new revenue" WTF are you talking about?


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## DovesGoWest (Jun 28, 2020)

VinRice said:


> I'm sorry but your entire thesis is simplistic garbage. Do you actually imagine this is how the SVP's of a $1.5 trillion company actually think? Like a mom & pop store needing to bilk their customers out of a few extra dollars to pay the rent? "It’s got to the stage where they need to force a change to generate new revenue" WTF are you talking about?


I am walking away from this, 30+ years in the software industry and having worked at and for both Microsoft and Apple as well as having good friends and contacts at both i know what i know. Apple sales are falling faster than a comet and they have to do something to respond if you knew anything about Apple's history this is actually all happened before.

Simple question if your a Logic Pro user will you fork out $2500+ for the next version which requires a new MacBook even though though the one you have is fine. Oh and also expect levels of support to dimish along with any OS updates etc.


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## Thundercat (Jun 28, 2020)

Michael Antrum said:


> Well everyone has been bitching about the performance and thermal issues with the MacBook Pros (some of which I know are self inflicted with the 'thin' obsession).
> 
> So Apple decide to do something about it. Apple's move from PowerPC to Intel back in the day proved to be a smart move, despite the short term pain that lasted a couple of years. If the advantages of ARM are significant, and I've no reason to suspect they won't be, I think it could end up being the same story - short term pain for long term gain.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Like WTF did they ditch the mag safe power adapter? Utter genius, and they threw it away!


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## thevisi0nary (Jun 28, 2020)

DovesGoWest said:


> LOL Windows was on ARM in tech terms a long time ago now, the Surface Pro X is not a dud the problem is no 3rd part software companies are recompiling ARM versions of their software. Microsoft control the Surface hardware no different to Apple and brought out an ARM version to test the waters. The thing is there are a thousand and one other hardware manufacturers who make Intel based machines for windows and they have seen no demand to make an ARM version, with no hardware then no software will come chicken n egg situation.



Not trying to be rude but I don’t know how you can plainly contradict yourself here. The exact point was that the surface pro x was in fact testing the waters and was a dud on that basis, because they don’t have a software ecosystem in place to make it anything other than an experiment currently. It has a couple apps that run natively on arm and everything else gets run on poorly emulated x86.

It doesn’t matter if Microsoft has been experimenting with Arm based machine for X years, Apple has a flagship product running arm with an entire ecosystem of native / non emulated software that runs circles around any windows Arm device, on this basis Microsoft doesn’t have anywhere near a comparable product. Developers have been making software that is _*already running *_on Apple arm devices, it is a no brainer that developers are going to get on board.


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## DovesGoWest (Jun 28, 2020)

Be interesting to see how quick the new arm based machines will ship as nobody is going to buy a new Intel machine now unless apple agree to replace it with an arm machine


thevisi0nary said:


> Not trying to be rude but I don’t know how you can plainly contradict yourself here. The exact point was that the surface pro x was in fact testing the waters and was a dud on that basis, because they don’t have a software ecosystem in place to make it anything other than an experiment currently. It has a couple apps that run natively on arm and everything else gets run on poorly emulated x86.
> 
> It doesn’t matter if Microsoft has been experimenting with Arm based machine for X years, Apple has a flagship product running arm with an entire ecosystem of native / non emulated software that runs circles around any windows Arm device, on this basis Microsoft doesn’t have anywhere near a comparable product. Developers have been making software that is _*already running *_on Apple arm devices, it is a no brainer that developers are going to get on board.


whatever you obviously know nothing about software development, the difference between an iOS app and a native application, the fact that Apple silicon has baked in emulation for x86 

all this just to get more battery life lol , thermal overheat etc is a fault of the Apple design under jobs this would have been addressed. I write, design, architect software for a living I know what’s involved


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## seclusion3 (Jun 28, 2020)

I do wonder if many of the new systems may be a closed system, say 3-4 levels with HD and Ram and for iMac screen sizes. I'm not saying I like it, but really hate dust in the system slowing things down. We don't know, but I don't think we'll have performance increased.
For some of the smaller plugin vendors, I hate the though of them postponing a new project to spend time porting stuff over. The bigger crew, likely have staff just for that and its what they do.
Maybe we will be lucky and a plugin developer will chime in and say, hey we got the mini, ported our stuff over in 2 days, its all good.


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## DovesGoWest (Jun 28, 2020)

seclusion3 said:


> I do wonder if many of the new systems may be a closed system, say 3-4 levels with HD and Ram and for iMac screen sizes. I'm not saying I like it, but really hate dust in the system slowing things down. We don't know, but I don't think we'll have performance increased.
> For some of the smaller plugin vendors, I hate the though of them postponing a new project to spend time porting stuff over. The bigger crew, likely have staff just for that and its what they do.
> Maybe we will be lucky and a plugin developer will chime in and say, hey we got the mini, ported our stuff over in 2 days, its all good.


I actually think it could be some of the bigger crews that question things, as now they are going to have to maintain 2 separate products/code bases rather than a single base that is compiled for each target

will depend on their consumer base, for instance stienberg might say well only 10% of our consumers use Mac so it’s not cost effective

the other factor is take up, how long will it take until the Mac user base has more arm than Intel. Based on how well macs seem to perform and last it seems they hang on to them for 6/7 yrs so how will Apple convince people to replace units a few years old


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## synthesizerwriter (Jun 28, 2020)

Don't Microsoft do Windows 10 for ARM already?


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 28, 2020)

DovesGoWest said:


> Be interesting to see how quick the new arm based machines will ship as nobody is going to buy a new Intel machine now unless apple agree to replace it with an arm machine



I don't see it that way. first Apple has said they still have Intel machines in the pipeline yet to release. So intel is not over. Secondly people will continue to buy intel machines because its going to take some years for 3rd party software to transition over and also, we have yet to see an actual functioning ARM mac that performs as well as their Intel machines. I'm sure they are planning to release something that performs and let's hope they make that happen, but until that is done, many performance oriented folks, including most people on this forum, will continue using Intel Macs for the next few years at least, probably more like 5 more years in my view. Since Apple is yet going to release some Intel macs..we can safely say Intel will continue to be supported by Apple for around 10 more years. Its yet to be seen how long 3rd party devs will continue to support Intel... 

But in the audio community, I expect that the first ARM macs are going to hit the audio community like a lead balloon and underwhelm everyone...and it will take some time, in years, until the audio community will be moving in a big landslide over to ARM when stuff finally comes out in ARM form that satisfies our DSP hunger. 

Until then, IMHO, the vast majority of audio related mac users will continue using (and buying) Intel based macs. Intel is not over yet. It is a dead man walking no doubt, but there are going to be some years ahead of Intel Macs, particularly in the audio community.

But hey we'll see. I do think that in about 5 years there is going to be great conflict because there will be a period of time where a lot of non-audio software will have moved to ARM, 3rd party developers will probably stop supporting Intel at some point, etc.. while audio devs will hang on longer due to performance requirements. That will put many of us in a situation where we will be on the fence, waiting for the right new mac to come out, while being less and less able to use whatever productivity software we like to use that is not getting updated on Intel any longer, etc.. That is when the landslide to ARM will be ripe to happen as soon as Apple puts out a machine powerful enough to pull everyone over. In my view that is 3-5 years away though.


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## VinRice (Jul 3, 2020)

DovesGoWest said:


> I am walking away from this, 30+ years in the software industry and having worked at and for both Microsoft and Apple as well as having good friends and contacts at both i know what i know. Apple sales are falling faster than a comet and they have to do something to respond if you knew anything about Apple's history this is actually all happened before.



I know Apple's history inside out and unlike you it seems I understand how they are structured, what the development philosophy is, and how they think. Firstly it is preposterous to imagine that this move is somehow a reaction to falling sales. All PC sales fluctuate cyclically and Apple remains the 5th or 6th seller by volume and by far the #1 in profit margin, regularly making more money out of the Mac division that _all other vendors put together_. Also, Mac sales only constitute 10% of Apple revenue, so to suggest that this is somehow a panicked scheme to generate cash is beyond stupid. 

This move will have been in the works for five years at the very least, probably instigated once it became clear that the A-series chips will successfully scale to desktop level performance, which they subsequently have. What has also become clear is that Apple has built significant design expertise in the peripheral chips that can add speed and functionality, and that TSMC has built significant manufacturing expertise that eclipses Intel.

Apple thinks strategically. Here is finally an opportunity to differentiate the Mac from the PC herd and achieve performance advantages. Here is finally an opportunity to unify software and hardware development platforms across the entire product range. From Day 1 Steve Job's central design philosophy was the integration of software and hardware. iPhone showed how successful that integration could be. Now there is an opportunity to have complete vertical control of the Mac platform and not be beholden to the development cycles of Intel, Nvidia, AMD etc.



DovesGoWest said:


> Simple question if your a Logic Pro user will you fork out $2500+ for the next version which requires a new MacBook even though though the one you have is fine. Oh and also expect levels of support to dimish along with any OS updates etc.



Again, WTF are you talking about? The next version of Logic Pro will work fine on existing Macs and probably the one after that. There is always at least a 6 year support window for these transitions. Personally I change my laptops and desktop machines about every six years and in the last one or two years will freeze the software so that I know I have functioning machines for professional work to the end of their useful lives. There are ALWAYS on-going transitions to new operating systems, hardware specs etc. It's called progress.


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## DovesGoWest (Jul 3, 2020)

VinRice said:


> I know Apple's history inside out and unlike you it seems I understand how they are structured, what the development philosophy is, and how they think. Firstly it is preposterous to imagine that this move is somehow a reaction to falling sales. All PC sales fluctuate cyclically and Apple remains the 5th or 6th seller by volume and by far the #1 in profit margin, regularly making more money out of the Mac division that _all other vendors put together_. Also, Mac sales only constitute 10% of Apple revenue, so to suggest that this is somehow a panicked scheme to generate cash is beyond stupid.
> 
> This move will have been in the works for five years at the very least, probably instigated once it became clear that the A-series chips will successfully scale to desktop level performance, which they subsequently have. What has also become clear is that Apple has built significant design expertise in the peripheral chips that can add speed and functionality, and that TSMC has built significant manufacturing expertise that eclipses Intel.
> 
> ...


Ok fanboy , support doesn’t equate to upgrades/new versions , enjoy your now defunct current hardware or is it upcoming new hardware running x86 software through baked in chip emulation

apple was about a marriage of design and technology each pushing the other, now its a mess with each blaming the other.


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## thevisi0nary (Jul 3, 2020)

DovesGoWest said:


> Ok fanboy , support doesn’t equate to upgrades/new versions , enjoy your now defunct current hardware or is it upcoming new hardware running x86 software through baked in chip emulation
> 
> apple was about a marriage of design and technology each pushing the other, now its a mess with each blaming the other.



Look man, I actually get the basis of your sentiment. Apple has frequently done things that get in the way of the user experience. Outside of their phones and tablets I have never and will never use them as a main workstation unless they gained some enormous lead performance. So my opinion comes from someone with no allegiance to them.

Regarding the shift to Arm they are totally on the mark, both for tech and as a business. (Setting aside desktop platforms for a moment), the tiny A12 chip in their phones currently hits 26% lower in geekbench singlecore performance than the 10900k, while pulling *SIX WATTS* of energy. That is insane, and this is just a mobile phone processor on what is largely an undeveloped platform. I say undeveloped not because it's new, but because there has been no good reason to take it further because software endorsement was limited in the past. The first ipad came out in 2010 and had little going for it. Fast forward to 2020 and there is a slew of software support. There are tons and tons of professional software available for the ipad, and they typically all fly on it performance wise. So there is already a well established market and userbase for software on arm. 

Now they take this proven method and can confidently back it financially and put it at the front of the line for development priority. They have control over the whole stack, chip to OS. It's hard to say what this will look like on a major desktop platform in two years. But I would find it extremely unlikely that a major tech monolith worth $1 trillion, who makes computers that are a first choice for a ton of people, and is the only competitive alternative to Windows, doesn't have a really solid plan in place for such a major transition. It's not unreasonable at all to believe the tech has to be there when this large of a company is leveraging their entire computing line into it.

In the interim this will have zero effect on someone like me, because I don't use Apple computers. But if they are able to push this tech and something cool comes out of it, I think that's great. 

Also, I don't think your concerns are entirely unfounded about support going forward from the two year gap that they stated. But, In the transition from PowerPC to Intel Machines, the first MacOS to only support intel came out four years after their announcement. And that was on a terrible platform, not a mainstream one like we are talking about now with an enormous userbase. So it's likely that support will continue for a fair amount longer than that.


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## DovesGoWest (Jul 3, 2020)

thevisi0nary said:


> Look man, I actually get the basis of your sentiment. Apple has frequently done things that get in the way of the user experience. Outside of their phones and tablets I have never and will never use them as a main workstation unless they gained some enormous lead performance. So my opinion comes from someone with no allegiance to them.
> 
> Regarding the shift to Arm they are totally on the mark, both for tech and as a business. (Setting aside desktop platforms for a moment), the tiny A12 chip in their phones currently hits 26% lower in geekbench singlecore performance than the 10900k, while pulling *SIX WATTS* of energy. That is insane, and this is just a mobile phone processor on what is largely an undeveloped platform. I say undeveloped not because it's new, but because there has been no good reason to take it further because software endorsement was limited in the past. The first ipad came out in 2010 and had little going for it. Fast forward to 2020 and there is a slew of software support. There are tons and tons of professional software available for the ipad, and they typically all fly on it performance wise. So there is already a well established market and userbase for software on arm.
> 
> ...


Fair points buddy sorry for the way I might have come across, let’s hope Apple aren’t leading themselves down a path they have trod before with the Mac and then the Newton , don’t think bill will bail them out this time lol


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## vitocorleone123 (Jul 3, 2020)

One thing is clear: Intel seriously f’d up in their planning years ago. AMD besting them again. And now Apple dumping them to roll their own chips.

The other clear thing: a lot of Apple fans will continue to pay huge sums of money regardless of what they have to submit to.


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## thevisi0nary (Jul 3, 2020)

DovesGoWest said:


> Fair points buddy sorry for the way I might have come across, let’s hope Apple aren’t leading themselves down a path they have trod before with the Mac and then the Newton , don’t think bill will bail them out this time lol



Yes yes agreed


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## jononotbono (Jul 3, 2020)

It means Apple will command even more money for their stuff.


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