# Advice about what to do



## Agondonter (Dec 28, 2017)

Hello guys and gals!

Respecting the collective knowledge of this forum as well as the individual experience of its members which very probably far surpasses mine, I decided to turn to you for advice/help/guidance. First an introduction and then my inquiry. 

I have been making music one way or another since I was 11. At 23 I was accepted to study music composition at the Mendelssohn music academy in Leipzig, but regretfully had to quit after a year because of an illness. Almost three years ago and after having overcome my illness I decided I wanted to study something again, so I studied graphic design. When I finished my studies in July and I started applying for a job I realised that I could not imagine myself working as a graphic designer and enjoy doing it. Music had always been what I love doing and what I can do best so recently I have been entertaining the idea of giving myself a second chance at it. I am an anxious personality in general and the thought of me starting again a second round of musical studies from the beginning stresses me a lot. For one, the entrance examinations are hard and secondly financing the whole venture will necessitate me taking a loan... not to mention the fact that I will be 36 before I get the degree...

The obstacles and difficulties are many and probably more than what I can currently imagine and perceive so I would like to ask for your opinion. What would you suggest me doing if I said to you that I want to have a music career as a composer (composing for games would be ideal, films and other media too)? Is studying necessary? If not, what are some things I should definitely start doing to start making this happen?

Regarding my strengths and weaknesses: I am a very good piano player, an excellent sight-reader, have a good understanding of music theory (harmony, counterpoint, orchestration, music history, musical forms, musical styles etc.), but seriously lack in computer music, sound design and audio engineering skills. I can load an instrument in Kontakt and use the sound to compose in Sibelius, but I have no knowledge how to create realistic playbacks of my finished compositions. For that reason I invested in a plugin called NotePerformer which sort of creates decent playbacks without you having to do anything. I don't like that though because I realise that I need to and I want to learn how to do all this stuff by myself. The gear I own is a stage piano by Roland which I use as a midi keyboard, a Korg NanoKontrol 2, a NI audio interface, speakers, headphones, a microphone and my laptop. I also have Ableton which my brother gave to me, but don't know how to use and a few sound libraries from NI (The Giant, Una Corda and a few more. Most of them are solo instruments. I use NotePerformer for orchestral sounds. For synthesised sounds I bought Absynth, but never really used it because I have no idea what each knob does and what all these parameters are).

Some study material suggestions would be very welcome regarding sound synthesis, mixing, audio engineering, creating mock-ups etc. I know the topics are so so so many, but I have to start from somewhere...

Anyway, this was a long message. I hope it is not an incoherent mess, lol. Thank you for taking the time to read it!

Cheers,
Alex

PS. I live in Germany by the way...


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## Mike Fox (Jan 4, 2018)

Studying is always necessary, but college isnt the only way to do it. It sounds like you have the music part down, and only need to overcome the technology side of things. Fortunately, there is a ton of free information out there (including these forums). Youtube is loaded with tutorials that can help you tremendously. If you were to spend an hour everyday learning something new about your DAW, and your music software, within a year (or less) you would be pretty solid, and you will be surprised by how fast you can excel at it. As far as finding full time work, I really don't know how to help you there. Im a probbyist by choice, and the money I make is inconsistant, but I have all the freedom I could ever want. Doing it full time seems like you have to sacrifice a lot, and its usually a game of who you know, and can take years to make the right contacts. Im sure others here can give better advice when it comes to that. Good luck with your journey!


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## Mornats (Jan 4, 2018)

I don't work in the industry but I read a few of your comments/questions and thought I could help with some.

First off, I've always considered the hardest part of all this is building up a solid foundation of music theory, musical talent etc. It sounds like you've got this covered so I'm going to venture out and say the rest of it should be easy to learn as it's just a case of finding some stuff out and applying it. You can blunder through some of the technical side of music creation in a DAW and just google the parts you're stuck on. You'll get an answer fairly soon and can move on. 

As for Absynth (and any synth in general) you can do pretty well using presets. I rarely tweak anything in synths because like you I just don't know what the knobs do. There are tutorials out there I can learn from, and I will, but for now I buy presets from the likes of Leap into the Void and The Unfinished and I know that I'll never exhaust them all in my tracks. Yes, making your own sounds can be better and will certainly help you create your own unique sound but for now you can get on just fine with presets. I believe it's how you use them in your composition that's more important than whether you sound totally unique in your synth patch sound design. (Not always true I should add, but in general, for me, using presets is an easy way forward until I advance enough to want and need my own sounds.)


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## mc_deli (Jan 4, 2018)

Sample libraries and media composing are crack.

You have music skills - why the obsession with composing for media? Why not composing for theatre, bands, teaching or something else?


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## mcalis (Jan 4, 2018)

@Agondonter It sounds to me you have your essentials covered. In fact, you probably have an edge over many people with your piano playing skills and sight-reading skills. You'd certainly have a massive edge over me in those areas!

I very much doubt college would be able to teach you the skills you need to know (how to use a DAW and VSTs). A lot of this information can be found online. If you're looking for something cohesive, maybe check out thinkspace education (https://thinkspaceeducation.com). They have a youtube channel as well that, I think, gives a good impression of what they do.

I don't know if they have beginner DAW lessons, but I suspect they do. Alternatively you could simply fire them an e-mail and inquire. From what I can tell they're very friendly!

There are other online institutions outside of Thinkspace, of course. The reason I bring them up is because my guess would be that something along the lines of what Thinkspace offers would be best suited to you. It's not as expensive as full college tuition but the quality surely far exceeds that of free youtube videos.

Again, there may be alternatives to Thinkspace that I'm not aware of... but I think that kind of thing would work best for you and, hopefully, is affordable enough that you won't have to take out a loan.

One more thing... I know it's cheesy to say "follow your dreams" and sometimes it can be risky, but if I can go off the deep end for a second... presuming this is your only shot at life, you might as well make the most of it. To me there's nothing more terrifying that spending vast amounts of my time doing things I don't enjoy.


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## Agondonter (Jan 4, 2018)

Thank you all for your replies! I am immensely grateful for them!

Everything you are saying resonates with me and I agree that it would be more profitable if I self-educated myself with the use of online material. I already went ahead and bought a tutorial from ADSR to learn how to create my own presets on Absynth. This way I can also learn a few things about sound synthesis and also learn how to use the basic functions of the program.



mc_deli said:


> You have music skills - why the obsession with composing for media? Why not composing for theatre, bands, teaching or something else?



I am actually considering on advertising myself as an accompanist mostly to people who want to rehearse their pieces. That way I could earn some extra money and make new contacts/friends. Meanwhile, the J.S.Bach music school in Leipzig asked me to write a piece for their concert band which is what I am currently working at... I also had a chance to work as a piano teacher/accompanist at the Schumann-Haus (the house where Robert Schumann lived in Leipzig which now is a music school) teaching young kids and accompanying the children ballet, but it didn't work out in the end... :(

@mcalis I found out about Thinkspace the other day and bookmarked the page for future use. Right now I cannot afford to attend any of the courses, but it seems like a good source of online education. I will certainly have it in my mind.



mcalis said:


> One more thing... I know it's cheesy to say "follow your dreams" and sometimes it can be risky, but if I can go off the deep end for a second... presuming this is your only shot at life, you might as well make the most of it. To me there's nothing more terrifying that spending vast amounts of my time doing things I don't enjoy.



I wholeheartedly agree with what you are saying there. I could earn my living doing something else for awhile, but in the long term I want to be able to live comfortably by doing what I like doing! 

Thank you all for the replies! I am looking forward to any other contributions!

Cheers,
Alex

P.S. One question: what are the first things I should learn how to use in a DAW (in my case Ableton)?


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## dog1978 (Jan 4, 2018)

Hi Alex,

I am german, too. You write me a pm. How to lean a DAW.
- try
- read the manual
- watch youtube video
- buy courses
- do a A/B prodcution (take a favorite song and recreate it)
- be creative

In some of my video I show, how I work:

German:



English:



Best regards, Tim


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## Fever Phoenix (Jan 4, 2018)

Dear Alex,

PM me if you want. I live in Switzerland but work a lot for German Television.

I always made music, all my life. Unlike you I did not complete any music school, university or such. I just always made music. By the age of 19, I dropped out of med school and just followed my dream of being/becoming an artist. Sounds cheesy, I know.. I was in debth after a year 

My biggest strength was always my voice and my skills in improvisation. After many failed attempts of breaking into any kind of musical industry, relying on musicians and producers, I just picked up all kind of jobs to pay my bills while always working on my music. I learned to play the guitar, the piano, bass, drums, sang in bands, somehow landed in the theater and started to write and perform there, while doing all kind of different day jobs.

Long story short, I am now 36 years old. I freelanced for a long time and am now for about a year full time self employed as a composer, vocal coach and musician. To continuosly work and learn brought me to a point where I now can deny offers, instead of taking every little underpaid opportunity. The network I have built over the years provides job opportunities all over the world.

What I want to say to you: In this line of work, there is no formula. If you love to make music, do it! If you are good at it, things will happen. And of course there is luck/coincidence involved, as sometimes it is just a matter of who you meet and under what circumstances.

As for studies regarding DAWs, VSTs and so on. You are in good hands here, this forum is fantastic. The internet in that case is your friend! Youtube etc full of tutorials and FAQs and there is so so so much I still don't know and I feel like a Newbie many times.

To quote Master Yoda in the (oh so irrationally hated) movie "The Last Jedi" : "Failure is the greatest teacher."

Best of luck,
and all the answers that were already posted are spot on!


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## Fever Phoenix (Jan 4, 2018)

As for your PS:

Really a matter what you want to do, what you need the DAW for..

If you know that:

TEMPLATES!
Set up the program according to your needs.
What tracks do you need?
Audio? Midi?
Does it make sense to create groups?
How do you route the monitoring?
Do you have studio monitor speakers?
Two pairs?
Learn the language of the DAW, like you would learn an instrument.
Muscle Memory speeds up the process and you get rid of dead time.

Watch some tutorials about the DAW you want to use.

So.. ich geh jetzt zu Bett


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 5, 2018)

Mornats said:


> First off, I've always considered the hardest part of all this is building up a solid foundation of music theory, musical talent etc. It sounds like you've got this covered so I'm going to venture out and say the rest of it should be easy to learn as it's just a case of finding some stuff out and applying it. You can blunder through some of the technical side of music creation in a DAW and just google the parts you're stuck on. You'll get an answer fairly soon and can move on.



On the contrary, I think the hardest part is getting actual work in the film and game industry. After doing this for over 25 years, I'm now taking formal piano and theory lessons at a local conservatory (I know, don't ask ). IMO, it's 10% music, and 90% marketing yourself and networking.


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## Mornats (Jan 5, 2018)

Indeed! An omission due to me not working in the industry myself and just considering the actual process of making music


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## wst3 (Jan 5, 2018)

to echo some previous points...

It is the music business, regardless of whom you wish to write for. So you'll need some business chops to accompany your musical chops. Based on your posts I'd suggest that might be the place to start. And for that I would wholehearedly recommend Thinkspace and Mike Verta's master classes. Hans Zimmers Masterclass might also be a good start. While some of the Thinkspace classes are expensive, they have a very cool "Blue Prints" class that is reasonable, and they have a lot of free videos too.

In the free video category do not overlook the sample library developers. Cinesamples and Project Sam both host some cool videos, the later even include tutorial files. And VSL has a lot of tutorials as well. These are all about using computers to make music, so they'll address your second point.

Learning to use a DAW and associated plugins is largely a mechanical endeavor. Learning to get the most of them becomes more artistic, but getting started is definitely not, and I think that makes it somewhat easier.

The first step down that path is to select tools. They may not be the tools you end up using, but you have to start somewhere.

You need A DAW. Abelton is cool, but not well suited (I think) to composition. You'll get about equal votes for all the major DAWs here, so watch some vendor videos, then close your eyes and throw a dart. I use Sonar, which was recently discontinued, and Studio One, which is still somewhat lacking in the MIDI department. Cubase and Digital Performer are excellent choices, and some here like Reaper. If you are using a Mac then Logic is a strong contender too.

You need a sample player. In this case I think Kontakt is the clear winner, at least for a starter. They have a huge share of the marketplace, and I'd wager you won't think of anything that isn't covered.

You will also need a scoring tool. Noteperformer is pretty cool, but I think you should at least consider one of the more powerful tools - Finale (which is my choice), Sibelius, or Dorico.

And you'll need a couple synthesizers, especially if you want to write for media. You probably can't make a bad choice, but if you need to narrow the field consider u-He, Arturia, gForce, and of course Native Instruments.

Finally, you may want/need an audio editor, such as Sound Forge or Wavelab. Both offer entry level versions which are quite useful, and not terribly expensive.

It might (?) sound counter-intuitive, but I think jumping in with both feet is the best way to go. It'll be pricey, but having all the tools at your disposal will help you figure out how they play together. And that is important.

Depending on your personality you may be able to push through on your own, with some help from folks at different forums. Or you may want to speed things up a bit - there are some excellent video classes on all the tools. I like the Groove3 classes, but they are the only ones I've ever purchased, so I don't have a lot to go on there.

The last bit of advice I'd offer is go find a project. This stuff is so much easier to learn if you are working on a real project. Just dinking around will get you there, but I think it takes longer. So find a guinea pig project and work for free if you have to. Or - and I've not tried this myself - maybe sign up for a couple of contests. The idea is to have a real goal in mind, it just helps.

Good luck!


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## MatFluor (Jan 5, 2018)

Fever Phoenix said:


> I live in Switzerland but work a lot for German Television.



Nice to see another swiss here  (Not contributing to the topic, just wanted to say hi)


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## Fever Phoenix (Jan 5, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> Nice to see another swiss here  (Not contributing to the topic, just wanted to say hi)


Salut, alles klar?


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## Agondonter (Jan 6, 2018)

Wow! Thank you all for your replies!

@dog1978 These are some good suggestions. I have watched some videos of people working on DAWs and something that struck me is that they notate their music using a grid system. I don't know if I can get used to it since I compose using a notation software (Sibelius). Do you think this is bad? Should I invest time in learning how to notate my music using the grid system DAWs have? Thank you for the videos. I will look at them!  <3

@Fever Phoenix Wow! What an inspiring story! It really is true then, that whatever one believes, one can achieve! I am so happy for you and wish the same for me too! 

I think you are right about doing other stuff so that you can pay your bills while at the same time working on your music. In the end, if you stick to it, it will happen and you won't have to do a million other jobs.

I have no idea what templates or groups in a DAW are. I am a complete newbie. As for routing, connectivity etc. I always made it work by chance. I would try all the possible ways to connect the speakers with the interface and eventually it would work. I cannot even differentiate an input from an output. This is such a perplexing topic to me. :/

@wst3 Thank you for your directions. I will take a look.

I do have Sibelius. I actually use Sibelius to compose. NotePerformer, which I also have is a Sibelius playback plugin, not a separate notation software. 

Indeed, I also believe I will have to invest some money (buying the full version of Kontakt, maybe buying Cubase etc.). Thankfully, I already have a synthesizer (Absynth 5), but first I have to learn how to use it!  A longer term goal would be to upgrade my pc. I currently work on an ASUS laptop... not terribly bad, but not very efficient either. But it does its job, so I can't complain! 

Soundforge and Wavelab - never heard of those two. I am going to look them up and see if I can afford them already.

Actually, I do work on a project right now, but it doesn't involve using any of the software except of course the notation software. Good suggestion though! Thanks!

Thank you guys! Great suggestions! Much love!

Cheers,
Alex


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## Daryl (Jan 6, 2018)

Agondonter said:


> I have watched some videos of people working on DAWs and something that struck me is that they notate their music using a grid system. I don't know if I can get used to it since I compose using a notation software (Sibelius). Do you think this is bad? Should I invest time in learning how to notate my music using the grid system DAWs have? Thank you for the videos. I will look at them!


No, you can still continue to compose using Sibelius. However, unless you are going to spring for the cost of recording your music, you will need to know how to sequence using a DAW. I do most of my orchestral writing using Sibelius (and now Dorico) and then, if I had to do a demo, I would sequence in Nuendo. This is because trying to orchestrate in a sequencer is really slow and tricky, whereas in a notation program it is relatively easy and quick. However, please note that I am talking about proper orchestration; not using samples. If you never want to use real players, there is less of an advantage to using a sequencer. Even so, for me it is quicker to notate and sequencer than to go straight to the DAW, unless I am writing loop based music, in particular.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 6, 2018)

wst3 said:


> If you are using a Mac then Logic is a strong contender too.
> 
> You will also need a scoring tool. !



The advantage of Logic, if you are on a a Mac, is that it does both sequencing and score printout well.


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## Fever Phoenix (Jan 6, 2018)

.
]

For me, at some point it didn't matter if I made money with music or not, if it would make me famous or anything. I re-discovered the joy of doing it and still do again and again and slowly good things started to happen.

Again, personally I believe there is no formula to success. Shit happens all the time, life is unpredictable. But when you go with that, it is easier to adapt.. I don't know, don't wanna sound like a T-Shirt quote


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## Agondonter (Jan 6, 2018)

Daryl said:


> No, you can still continue to compose using Sibelius. However, unless you are going to spring for the cost of recording your music, you will need to know how to sequence using a DAW. I do most of my orchestral writing using Sibelius (and now Dorico) and then, if I had to do a demo, I would sequence in Nuendo. This is because trying to orchestrate in a sequencer is really slow and tricky, whereas in a notation program it is relatively easy and quick. However, please note that I am talking about proper orchestration; not using samples. If you never want to use real players, there is less of an advantage to using a sequencer. Even so, for me it is quicker to notate and sequencer than to go straight to the DAW, unless I am writing loop based music, in particular.




Does sequencing translate as creating realistic playbacks of your scores? Or is it an entirely different process?

Since I don't know how to use a DAW yet, I only use samples so that I don't have to hear the awful midi sounds (the reason I bought NotePerformer). I do have to know though what colours each instrument is capable of reproducing and how (con sordino, sul tasto/ponticello, col legno, cuivré, bisbigliando etc.) instead of just searching through a sample library and picking the sound I like the best for a particular segment in the piece. So I guess, my approach towards composition is as if I write for real players (which I actually have to do for the current project I am working at).

@Fever Phoenix As I see it, hard work usually pays off and brings one closer to succeeding. Without it, you either have to be very privileged or maybe extremely lucky.

Cheers,
Alex


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## MatFluor (Jan 6, 2018)

Agondonter said:


> Does sequencing translate as creating realistic playbacks of your scores? Or is it an entirely different process?
> 
> Since I don't know how to use a DAW yet, I only use samples so that I don't have to hear the awful midi sounds (the reason I bought NotePerformer). I do have to know though what colours each instrument is capable of reproducing and how (con sordino, sul tasto/ponticello, col legno, cuivré, bisbigliando etc.) instead of just searching through a sample library and picking the sound I like the best for a particular segment in the piece. So I guess, my approach towards composition is as if I write for real players (which I actually have to do for the current project I am working at).
> 
> ...



Producing so-called "Mockups" is quite an art in itself - and an essential part of nowadays composer. Most often you don't have the budget to hire real players (and if, only a handful). I mostly sketch out in Notation and then perform into the DAW. To be a bit more precise, I play every single line in, that (to me) is the most "realistic" approach - since the small human errors and "off-timings" make the result far more real than clicking it in and/or quantize like a beast. To answer the question - Making a mockup is note like NotePerformer, it's really performing in the lines (depending on style, some are more forgiving of realism than others) and shaping them. With Notation software, you have hard-quantized notes with some performance information (like e.g. trill or flautando), and NotePerformer handles the "humanization" for you. In the DAW, you have to do the humanization yourself. I tried a few times doing a full score in the Notation software (I use Notion) and put the midi straight into the DAW - some stuff works, but in the end I used more time to fine-adjust the performance aspect (CC data, breaking up into separate articulations or Kayswitching etc.) than I took when I simply played the lines in one by one with performance and musicality in mind.

So in short: Sample libraries are an approximation to the real thing - you have to make some adjustments or compromises. In my experience "copy-paste" MIDI from a Notation program into a DAW doesn't work as well, you're better off playing it in manually with a Keyboard. For MIDI-Mockups, in my personal opinion, performance is superior to sample sound - a "not as good" sample library played musically sounds better than "top-notch" libraries hard quantized (I hope that makes sense, the wording might be a bit misleading there). Definitely learn using a DAW, it pays of tenfold. A lot of the work is done with mainly samples, simply because of budgetary reasons.


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## Agondonter (Jan 6, 2018)

@MatFluor Excellent advice! Thank you! So the best approach is to notate the score and then perform every instrument line separately so that the human element is there and then do some adjustments as required (I suppose doing these adjustments is the most difficult part). What about non-pitched instruments like percussion for example? How do you perform these?


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## MatFluor (Jan 6, 2018)

Agondonter said:


> @MatFluor Excellent advice! Thank you! So the best approach is to notate the score and then perform every instrument line separately so that the human element is there and then do some adjustments as required (I suppose doing these adjustments is the most difficult part). What about non-pitched instruments like percussion for example? How do you perform these?



To be clear, that is *my *approach. I know composers who compose directly in DAW (which I do also frequently - more than I'd like to admit).

Non-pitched instruments are for me the same - I play them in live. Granted, it's a bit tedious  I personally tend to quantize percussion more - but I'm no Mockup guru by any stretch.
Other composers I know play in with ensemble patches and do CC by drawing them in with the mouse - there are so many different workflows - what works for one doesn't fit the other.
As far as I've seen, the ensemble patch approach is more apparent when you are under high time pressure. I personally like the sound way more when I e.g. break out the whole line into the separate instrument (e.g. Vn1, Vn2, Va etc.). But I heard mockups from other who use e.g. Bernard Herman toolkit or Albion (I have Tundra and Uist) with premade ensembles (like e.g. "High strings") and they produce very good mockups.


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## PaulBrimstone (Jan 6, 2018)

I don't think it has been raised, but the OP should be aware of the bottomless pit awaiting him and his budget, otherwise known as sample library acquisition mania. @Agondonter, you'll see from plenty of threads here that you will need many more libraries than the virtual instruments you currently own — and that can be costly. Unless you have a modicum of self-restraint, which is not common in these parts . Whatever, good luck to you on your journey, which will be very fulfilling in time. I would suggest you do find the hours to delve deeply into past threads on VI-Control, where you will quickly gain an education on most everything you asked about.


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## Daryl (Jan 6, 2018)

Agondonter said:


> Does sequencing translate as creating realistic playbacks of your scores? Or is it an entirely different process?


Yes. In commercial music, the mock-up is often the final product, and the person who gets the gig is the person who delivers the best demo, not the person who composes the best piece of music.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 6, 2018)

Daryl said:


> Yes. In commercial music, the mock-up is often the final product, and the person who gets the gig is the person who delivers the best demo, not the person who composes the best piece of music.



Precisely. The director will have no idea what the score sounds like simply by looking at notation. They need to hear the final product....hence the reason that sequencing and sample libraries are so important for a composer these days.


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## Agondonter (Jan 7, 2018)

PaulBrimstone said:


> I don't think it has been raised, but the OP should be aware of the bottomless pit awaiting him and his budget, otherwise known as sample library acquisition mania. @Agondonter, you'll see from plenty of threads here that you will need many more libraries than the virtual instruments you currently own — and that can be costly. Unless you have a modicum of self-restraint, which is not common in these parts . Whatever, good luck to you on your journey, which will be very fulfilling in time. I would suggest you do find the hours to delve deeply into past threads on VI-Control, where you will quickly gain an education on most everything you asked about.



I don't mind spending money when I have money to spend and to be honest I see it as an investment. 

I will thoroughly investigate the forum in the following weeks, months maybe years! You all keep posting so that us newbies can learn, hehe! Love the profile picture by the way! 

@Daryl and @Wolfie2112 Then time to learn how to sequence!  Thanks guys!

Cheers,
Alex


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## jhughes (Jan 8, 2018)

I guess I'll go against the grain here. 
Truthfully, a lot of musicians will perform your pieces for not a whole lot of money. I see it all the time, as someone who plays gigs and networks with a lot of musicians for a living. There are some really good musicians that are not just reasonable but actually work CHEAP. It's sad but true, especially in today's performing situation.
I can be confident in saying somebody somewhere will play your music and not charge you much for it. They may not be Hillary Hahn but you can actually get some good players for a reasonable price. Especially if the material is not too difficult. 
I say that to tell you this-the idea some 1000 track realistic mockup will bring a level of success should be considered a bit more critically. All of the time and energy it takes just to make a mediocre mockup can easily be a time consumer. It will take a year or more I'm sure of it. 
During that time you could take some of your pieces, get a real musician to record them. In the beginning, a decent recording with live musicians is going to be worth more than some mediocre mockup.
You can work on your production skills in the background as you get a few things rolling.


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## Agondonter (Jan 9, 2018)

@jhughes I can well believe that. Another technical difficulty is to find the place to do the recording though. The technician has to be paid as well of course, no? In my case, I can only imagine small scale works, like solos, duets and such as feasible to have them performed. Anything more complex or larger-scale is, at the moment, out of my league. Same thing goes for the mockup route. I have neither the knowledge and skills, nor the necessary equipment (sound libraries and such). NotePerformer is my consolation for the time being! 

I am hopeful and positive for the future though. Lots of things to learn so I am a bit overwhelmed, but excited at the same time.

Thanks for your input!

Cheers,
Alex


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 9, 2018)

jhughes said:


> I say that to tell you this-the idea some 1000 track realistic mockup will bring a level of success should be considered a bit more critically. All of the time and energy it takes just to make a mediocre mockup can easily be a time consumer. It will take a year or more I'm sure of it.



I would love to have a "cheap" live orchestra at my disposal, but I would be bankrupt for what it costs to have it recorded, orchestrated, etc. The thing is, a composer needs to master his/her workflow so that mockups don't take a ton of time....mine are usually a few hours on average. And honestly, directors don't want to wait for their cues. For a film, etc, the turnaround is very short for the music so one must be ready to work fast and efficiently with low overhead. This is where mastering your DAW, VI's, and MIDI orchestration skills comes into play.


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## jhughes (Jan 9, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I would love to have a "cheap" live orchestra at my disposal, but I would be bankrupt for what it costs to have it recorded, orchestrated, etc. The thing is, a composer needs to master his/her workflow so that mockups don't take a ton of time....mine are usually a few hours on average. And honestly, directors don't want to wait for their cues. For a film, etc, the turnaround is very short for the music so one must be ready to work fast and efficiently with low overhead. This is where mastering your DAW, VI's, and MIDI orchestration skills comes into play.


I don't recall mentioning an orchestra. If someone is just getting started there is lots they can do that doesn't involve an entire orchestra or great deal of musicians. 
A portfolio can begin much simpler especially with all the list of skills he posseses. If you are already doing films then sure you are going to need those skills but that isn't where he is at. Are you saying he can learn to do great mockups quickly in less than a year starting from scratch?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 9, 2018)

jhughes said:


> I don't recall mentioning an orchestra. If someone is just getting started there is lots they can do that doesn't involve an entire orchestra or great deal of musicians.
> A portfolio can begin much simpler especially with all the list of skills he posseses. If you are already doing films then sure you are going to need those skills but that isn't where he is at. Are you saying he can learn to do great mockups quickly in less than a year starting from scratch?



Absolutely. It all depends how motivated one is, and how quickly they learn. 1000 tracks is most likely going to be some huge, epic piece (hence the reason I assumed a full orchestra). My orchestral mockups are usually around 40 tracks, but I'm by no means a professional orchestrator. My point is, it would be a lot easier and cost effective to learn how to create your own renderings...as opposed to creating, arranging, and preparing scores for session players. Plus, you can't go back and tweak any mistakes in the live recordings and the studio costs would be enormous. IMO, we are living in a perfect era for composers. The tools available for creating realistic mockups are better than ever.

Just my 2 cents...


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## Desire Inspires (Jan 9, 2018)

Use mockups until you get you cash up!


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## Montisquirrel (Jan 11, 2018)

@Agondonter

Hi Alex,

I'm in a similar position like you. I'm 34 now and I'm going to stop my full-time job this summer because of my desire to make (more) music. I have no idea how exactly it will be like, but at least I want to try. I don't have that much theoretic knowledge like you, but I have knowledge about using a DAW and I already got many VST / plugins and I'm from Germany, too. If you are interested you can send me a PM and maybe we can share our experiences / knowledge / lack of knowledge.

Regards from the Ruhrgebiet


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 11, 2018)

Montisquirrel said:


> @Agondonter
> 
> Hi Alex,
> 
> I'm in a similar position like you. I'm 34 now and I'm going to stop my full-time job this summer because of my desire to make (more) music. I have no idea how exactly it will be like, but at least I want to try.



I would never quit a full time job if you don't have a solid gig(s) lined up. I would recommend pursuing the music making jobs on the side, and then quit your other job once (or if) you get a solid income happening. Might be different in Germany, but in Western Canada it would be financial suicide to simply quit a job and blindly jump into the music/media industry, especially with nothing solid lined up. You obviously have the passion, but that won't get you the work. It takes a long time, you need to create a network of key contacts, take on a few "freebies", and gradually build up a resume to the point where you can start landing real work.


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## Montisquirrel (Jan 11, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I would never quit a full time job if you don't have a solid gig(s) lined up. I would recommend pursuing the music making jobs on the side, and then quit your other job once (or if) you get a solid income happening. Might be different in Germany, but in Western Canada it would be financial suicide to simply quit a job and blindly jump into the music/media industry, especially with nothing solid lined up. You obviously have the passion, but that won't get you the work. It takes a long time, you need to create a network of key contacts, take on a few "freebies", and gradually build up a resume to the point where you can start landing real work.



Thank you for your message. I apreceate you words. I didn't want to tell my whole backgroundstory in my post, but I'm already doing music jobs while having a full time job. Your advice is good and it is great that you dont just roll your eyes but also writing your thoughs down. Of course, quitting a full time job for music has a risk, but if I don't try it I will always regret it and that is worse than having no money for a month or two in my opinion.


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## MatFluor (Jan 11, 2018)

Montisquirrel said:


> Thank you for your message. I apreceate you words. I didn't want to tell my whole backgroundstory in my post, but I'm already doing music jobs while having a full time job. Your advice is good and it is great that you dont just roll your eyes but also writing your thoughs down. Of course, quitting a full time job for music has a risk, but if I don't try it I will always regret it and that is worse than having no money for a month or two in my opinion.



On the "no money for a month or two" thing. I just want to state how I currently approach it.

I generate very little income through composing currently (party because I didn't actively pursue gigs a lot for dayjob reasons). So:

- I have a dayjob, working 80% (leaving 20% of "official working hours" for either overtime work or music related work, mostly reading, transcribing etc. currently)
- My dayjob gives me a good and steady inflow of cash, which enables me to upgrade, get libraries, get education and more
- Additionally, my dayjob enables me to save money - and here's the thing:
- I plan to save cash for going fulltime composer in the not-so-distant future
- My saved cash should carry me in the "downtime" and get ideally get replenished in the "uptime"

The question for me was "how much cash do I need to go fulltime/freelance?". What I did was:
- *Track all my expenses and income* for 1,5 years, write down everything, from the christmas present money, to insurance paybacks, shopping, eating out etc. just really everything
- *Calculate *how much money I *need daily* to live the life I currently do
- Calculate from experience, *on how much I managed to live* while at university, where money was tight
- Set a reasonable *baseline for my "minimal, comfortable monthly life"* -> that's what I need to live on a monthly basis without going all crazy, but not cut down on everything I have.

Ok, now I knew how much I want to have to live on my standards (it's not that high tbh), and a critical lowline with the "bare minimum", everything in between is fair game. From that on, I set myself a *realistic saving goal*. From experience with start-ups (on my dayjob, I am also part of a fund-approval panel for startups that get created from the university, the panel decided how much kickstart funding they get), I knew that you ideally need a financial bed of 1-5 years (until your business makes profit vs losing money). So Idecided to save money as good as I can (while still being able to get the occasional library and educational stuff I want/need) and go for a financial bed of *2.5-3 years*. Meaning, as soon as I have saved up money to survive with absolutely no income at all for 2.5-3 years, I can comfortably quit my dayjob and am sure not to go bancrupt in this time. And, as dumb as it sound, every paying job prolongs that "deadline" where I need to look for a dayjob again.

Excsuse the bold-writing in some parts - I just wanted to get that across  I think my plan is really solid, and I just wanted to explain it here (for you to compare and others to get an idea maybe.

Not intended as any kind of ad, but I created an open source webapp for myself to track my expenses/income, if you're computer savvyy (and have a server at your disposal), you can have a look at it. I got the idea form an earlier blogpost, and it's linked, so you can read up on the methodology I used and create e.g. Excel sheets or whatever. See here: https://github.com/MatFluor/gofinance

I hope that helps


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## Agondonter (Jan 11, 2018)

Thank you all for your input!

Securing your needs financially is an issue for us that are just beginning in the composer's path. I am trying to come up with solutions that will help me have a respectable income and time to do what I love doing so that in several years from now I will be able to live only off that (hopefully). 

@Montisquirrel Sure, I would love to talk to you. I live in Sachsen by the way


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 11, 2018)

Montisquirrel said:


> Of course, quitting a full time job for music has a risk, but if I don't try it I will always regret it and that is worse than having no money for a month or two in my opinion.



If your new musical career is based on a solid foundation (such as working regularly in a post production house) then the risk is a lot less. However, there may be weeks, or even months between freelance jobs. But I hope it works out for you, I love it when people pursue their dreams! Although I don't composer music full time, it has been a steady, solid part time career that I love..and along with it have been many victories; none of which would have been realized if I had quit years ago. I also perform as a professional drummer every weekend (with the occasional tour), so the flame is still burning strong. It's been talked about to death on these forums, but IMHO there's no point in living if you don't pursue your passions, even if it's only part time.


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## Brian2112 (Jan 11, 2018)

Disclaimer: I'm a hack and not a pro, and a drummer to boot, but I have done professional sound design. So take anything I say with a 55 gallon drum of salt. 

Regarding learning synthesis ( I am sorry if you know this already), I would recommend spending a few hours with a very basic analog subtractive synthesizer. One you totally understand filters, envelopes, and LFOs, then you have a solid foundation moving forward. Every type of synthesis (even granular,additive, and FM) will be a lot easier to grasp if you understand basic subtractive. 
I think a lot of composing these days includes sound design to some extent so it's definitely worth the time invested.


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## Agondonter (Jan 12, 2018)

@Brian2112 Thank you for your advice! I currently have Absynth 5. Do you think I can practice subtractive synthesis on it? What basic sound waves should I try experimenting on first do you think? I like the sine wave for its round sound, but the square one is also interesting. It sounds as if one can create nice bass sounds with it...

Cheers,
Alex


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## Brian2112 (Jan 12, 2018)

Agondonter said:


> @Brian2112 Thank you for your advice! I currently have Absynth 5. Do you think I can practice subtractive synthesis on it? What basic sound waves should I try experimenting on first do you think? I like the sine wave for its round sound, but the square one is also interesting. It sounds as if one can create nice bass sounds with it...
> 
> Cheers,
> Alex


Absynth 5 is a beast! It's one of the best instruments ever and will serve you well in the future. Unfortunately, it's probably the last thing I would recommend to get started. It is supremely capable, but also very complex and uses many different types of synthesis.
There may be some really cheap (or even free) basic subtractive synths out there that would be a better option to get started. I will look into it for you and hopefully others will have recommendations as well.

Edit: In the meantime, use a strait up sawtooth wave. Sine waves can be cool but there's not much to subtract from a sine wave.


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## Agondonter (Jan 12, 2018)

@Brian2112 Great! Thanks so much! The sawtooth wave I could find on Absynth has a downward direction... I also have Spark (a Reaktor instrument) by the way.

Cheers,
Alex


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