# Balancing hobbies/music and family time (personal/long post)



## RenePedersen (Sep 2, 2020)

EDIT: Okay I'm closing up the thread here for personal reasons and the topic has also derailed quite a bit.  

I just want to close this of by letting everybody know that appreciate all the feedback, stories and advice, whether it was career oriented or personal life. 

Thank you so much guys. I wish you all the best.


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## MartinH. (Sep 2, 2020)

RenePedersen said:


> So, the problem that I find myself being in is that I work a full-time job from 8am to 4:30pm.



Is there no "Option 5." where you either work less hours in your current job for less pay, or switch to a higher paying job with less hours and roughly the same total pay you have now?


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## RenePedersen (Sep 2, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Is there no "Option 5." where you either work less hours in your current job for less pay, or switch to a higher paying job with less hours and roughly the same total pay you have now?


I have thought about taking more annual leave to do more music during the time where my gf and my stepson are out of the house, but going on a lower pay won't make things easier I think, as I live in a part of the UK where the pay is not as high as in other countries, with the kind of job that I do. (I work in IT support)

I could look into changing jobs, but I don't think I will be able to be paid more than I am in this area, as I already get a good salary compared to most people here.


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## Markrs (Sep 2, 2020)

I feel you pain with this. I am currently single with no children so not the best place to give advice. However I do think reducing some of the time spent on music and games and giving that to family is a good idea. Also the quality of the time you spend with family is important not just quantity. 

It is always a balance but the first thing would be to have a open and honest conversation with your partner.


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## RenePedersen (Sep 2, 2020)

Markrs said:


> I feel you pain with this. I am currently single with no children so not the best place to give advice. However I do think reducing some of the time spent on music and games and giving that to family is a good idea. Also the quality of the time you spend with family is important not just quantity.
> 
> It is always a balance but the first thing would be to have a open and honest conversation with your partner.


Thanks for your input. I did spend most of my evening yesterday thinking about all these options and it kept me from sleeping and I shared this with my partner this morning. So we are currently talking about it.


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## MartinH. (Sep 2, 2020)

RenePedersen said:


> I have thought about taking more annual leave to do more music during the time where my gf and my stepson are out of the house, but going on a lower pay won't make things easier I think, as I live in a part of the UK where the pay is not as high as in other countries, with the kind of job that I do. (I work in IT support)
> 
> I could look into changing jobs, but I don't think I will be able to be paid more than I am in this area, as I already get a good salary compared to most people here.



Did you do the math on how much of a difference exactly going from ~40h to ~30h would make for your net income and your pension? I don't know how it's in the UK, but when my girlfriend realized going from 39 to 32 hours a week only means having ~250 euro less per months she switched to only working 4 days a week. 

Have you ever checked out the "frugalism" movement? The idea is to spend less money so that you need to work less and have more time.


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## RenePedersen (Sep 2, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Did you do the math on how much of a difference exactly going from ~40h to ~30h would make for your net income and your pension? I don't know how it's in the UK, but when my girlfriend realized going from 39 to 32 hours a week only means having ~250 euro less per months she switched to only working 4 days a week.
> 
> Have you ever checked out the "frugalism" movement? The idea is to spend less money so that you need to work less and have more time.


I could definitely look into the numbers, but I think it all comes down to my boss and company agreeing to me working less and also if I can make things run in our house, as I am the one with the biggest income. My girlfriend works as well, but she gets a little less than I do. So it would definitely be something we would have to look into first.


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## Levon (Sep 2, 2020)

Your story sounds very familiar to me. I too am a hobbyist songwriter. When my first child was born back in 2014 all spare time for songwriting disappeared. Then child number 2 appeared a few years later. I'm only now starting to get back into writing and recording. I realised very quickly that my hobbies would very much be a background task. Trying to fit in music in between full time work and family is not easy.


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## JonS (Sep 2, 2020)

RenePedersen said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have thought long and hard about this one and would appreciate if you guys could give me your opinions and advice on how you balance your craft with your family life - Now this mostly apply to people with kids and a wife/girlfriend as this is the situation I find myself in. The few who do make a lot of money in this industry don’t realize how lucky they are and may even believe their talent and hustle got them their success, it didn’t. Call it luck, Fate, God, divine providence, whatever it is it’s not something any of us control no matter what we do, such is the nature of life. So quitting your job and pursuing music may be more akin to giving up making any money for the rest of your life.
> 
> ...


Don’t quit your job. It’s almost impossible to turn music into a career. The ones who make money in the music industry are mostly lucky 🍀 as all the hard work, talent, determination and charisma doesn’t mean anything in this biz, luck plays the most important role.


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## RenePedersen (Sep 2, 2020)

JonS said:


> Don’t quit your job. It’s almost impossible to turn music into a career. The ones who make money in the music industry are mostly lucky 🍀 as all the hard work, talent, determination and charisma doesn’t mean anything in this biz, luck plays the most important role.


Agreed, I have sort of made a deal with myself that I would only do that, if I find enough work to make up for my own full time salary.


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## JonS (Sep 2, 2020)

RenePedersen said:


> Agreed, I have sort of made a deal with myself that I would only do that, if I find enough work to make up for my own full time salary.


Let’s hope 🍀 luck finds you 🍾


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## R. Soul (Sep 2, 2020)

Nice to see another Dane (I presume?) 

The one thing I noticed about your post was that you said you've only been writing music for 1 year.
I can't imagine anyone getting good enough in just 1 year to be able to do it for a living, but I could be wrong. I've done this for 30 years now, and I still suck  

If you finish work at 4:30pm , that's still 7 hours or so free time. Surely there's enough hours left to do it all, no? Just sleep less. 
Otherwise part time work seems like a better solution, if it's possible.


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## Greeno (Sep 2, 2020)

great of you to share this with us. I have come accross similar concerns.
My advice would be to have completely honest conversation with your yourself and then girlfriend about what you want to do and reach some agreements about what sort of times and amounts of times you do your things so that there are no hidden resentments that bubble up in the background and turn into fall-outs. The worst things arise out of lack of communication, if everything is out and open with your girlfriend/family then there is less likely a chance of issues to arise.

Personally I would think about seriously reducing either music production or gaming. For me Music production is the clear winner to spend time doing because you are creating pieces of art that you can share with people, potentially peform, potentially sell and also potentially turn into some sort of career! whereas with gaming you are just playing other peoples creations and there aren't as many tangible products, sure some improved coordination and some communication with a community but not as much of a beautiful thing as music.

Wishing you all the best!


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## RenePedersen (Sep 2, 2020)

R. Soul said:


> Nice to see another Dane (I presume?)
> 
> The one thing I noticed about your post was that you said you've only been writing music for 1 year.
> I can't imagine anyone getting good enough in just 1 year to be able to do it for a living, but I could be wrong. I've done this for 30 years now, and I still suck
> ...


I'm a Dane yes  

I have played music and instruments almost my entire life, but only started composing late 2019. I don't know how good my music it as its subjective, I will let other people decide that haha. 

Part time and sleeping less won't work for me unfortunately.


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## RenePedersen (Sep 2, 2020)

Greeno said:


> great of you to share this with us. I have come accross similar concerns.
> My advice would be to have completely honest conversation with your yourself and then girlfriend about what you want to do and reach some agreements about what sort of times and amounts of times you do your things so that there are no hidden resentments that bubble up in the background and turn into fall-outs. The worst things arise out of lack of communication, if everything is out and open with your girlfriend/family then there is less likely a chance of issues to arise.
> 
> Personally I would think about seriously reducing either music production or gaming. For me Music production is the clear winner to spend time doing because you are creating pieces of art that you can share with people, potentially peform, potentially sell and also potentially turn into some sort of career! whereas with gaming you are just playing other peoples creations and there aren't as many tangible products, sure some improved coordination and some communication with a community but not as much of a beautiful thing as music.
> ...


Thanks a lot! I feel like you are spot on with what you are saying. I will one way or the other need to minimise one of those two, even though gaming inspires and is my way of relaxing, I feel like music is definitely more important to me than spending hours playing.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 2, 2020)

Everybody should always be able to allocate a good amount of "me time". It's vital. A partner should always be able to understand and respect that.

I don't believe in "making time" for family etc. It sounds like a chore, an indulgence, or obligation. I don't really feel like it, but here you go. If it's like that, I don't think that it's healthy for anyone involved. These things should happen organically and do not need to be rationalized.

The other thing is obviously that as an outsider, it's hard to comment as we don't know how much time you really take to be by yourself. Could it be that you're distant? It's way easier to play video games or noodle around than to deal with what might be emotional issues. Not saying that you have them, but that there's a possibility that it's the case. We don't know. You _might_ be the problem.  But then this is not a simple matter of dividing your time adequately.


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## RenePedersen (Sep 2, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Everybody should always be able to allocate a good amount of "me time". It's vital. A partner should always be able to understand and respect that.
> 
> I don't believe in "making time" for family etc. It sounds like a chore, an indulgence, or obligation. I don't really feel like it, but here you go. If it's like that, I don't think that it's healthy for anyone involved. These things should happen organically and do not need to be rationalized.
> 
> The other thing is obviously that as an outsider, it's hard to comment as we don't know how much time you really take to be by yourself. Could it be that you're distant? It's way easier to play video games or noodle around than to deal with what might be emotional issues. Not saying that you have them, but that there's a possibility that it's the case. We don't know. You _might_ be the problem.  But then this is not a simple matter of dividing your time adequately.


Everything you said here I can say Yes to. I have always been own person and I do feel that it can become a chore, but again I have tendencies to overthink everything. But it's also important to mention that my girlfriend is understanding of my "me time" but she has openly said to me that she knows how much it means to me but she still tolerates it and doesn't want to pester me about it, but sometimes she does anyway, and I can fully understand why. It all comes down to the standards I set for myself in this house and whether I feel like I live up to that.


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## Greeno (Sep 2, 2020)

RenePedersen said:


> Everything you said here I can say Yes to. I have always been own person and I do feel that it can become a chore, but again I have tendencies to overthink everything. But it's also important to mention that my girlfriend is understanding of my "me time" but she has openly said to me that she knows how much it means to me but she still tolerates it and doesn't want to pester me about it, but sometimes she does anyway, and I can fully understand that.


It's great that she understands that you need 'me time' as everyone should have their own time, it is a healthy part of all relationships. I would say be careful that there are no presumptions about what an adequate/reasonable amount of time is. Talk about it calmly and reach an agreement about how much time you spend and when, with the understanding that you will be open to review it together later if required. Be flexible and open, don't hide stuff, its much easier for everyone.

You wouldn't want that she just says 'yes' to everything but really she wants to raise questions or talk about it. Otherwise things will build up in her and come out wrong.

all the best!


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## MartinH. (Sep 2, 2020)

Greeno said:


> For me Music production is the clear winner to spend time doing because you are creating pieces of art that you can share with people, potentially peform, potentially sell and also potentially turn into some sort of career!


Strictly speaking the same could be said for streamers and speedrunners. At the moment I spend more time with music than games too, but I wouldn't discount them so easily. Fully cutting gaming out of your life is basically like ignoring an entire art medium. It's like someone saying "I'll cut listening to music out of my life because it takes too much time away from recording podcasts". If you want to do that, then more power to you, but I don't think it's fair to say that making music is better use of time than other hobbies. I've basically cut reading novels out of my life but I'd never tell people "Stop reading novels, you're not creating anything when you read a book, so it's basically a waste of time."




RenePedersen said:


> It all comes down to the standards I set for myself in this house and whether I feel like I live up to that.


Well, make sure you stay realistic with the standards you set for yourself! Setting those too high is a surefire way to make yourself miserable.


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## RenePedersen (Sep 2, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Strictly speaking the same could be said for streamers and speedrunners. At the moment I spend more time with music than games too, but I wouldn't discount them so easily. Fully cutting gaming out of your life is basically like ignoring an entire art medium. It's like someone saying "I'll cut listening to music out of my life because it takes too much time away from recording podcasts". If you want to do that, then more power to you, but I don't think it's fair to say that making music is better use of time than other hobbies. I've basically cut reading novels out of my life but I'd never tell people "Stop reading novels, you're not creating anything when you read a book, so it's basically a waste of time."
> 
> 
> 
> Well, make sure you stay realistic with the standards you set for yourself! Setting those too high is a surefire way to make yourself miserable.


I absolutely agree, I'm not going to quit video games I already considered that a few times, but she didn't want me to let go of the things that brings me joy, but just asked for me to spend more time with them. I need video games in my life, they make me creative and make me feel good in general, they are partly the reason why I started composing in the first place. 

About standards, I know and need to learn to stop beating myself up, I'm working on that.


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## Mornats (Sep 2, 2020)

Well here's a post that resonates with me really well! I'm divorced and spent 9 years on my own before meeting my current partner. I work 8 - 4 and was usually back home by 4:30. I'm a late night person so would shut down the PC around midnight and watch Netflix for one or two episodes of whatever I was watching. So my computer time was huge. I'd get home, switch it on, sort through emails and VI Control then make dinner and do chores. So typically is be on the pc from 6-7 onwards every night. More at weekends. I'd use it for music production, photography, art and gaming. Back then I remember saying to myself that if I met someone all this would change and I'd never get this amount of time free again. 

Three years ago I met my current partner and of course I was right with not having free time. So now I'm scrabbling around for a spare hour or two in the evenings where I can get some PC time. My partner goes to bed around 10 so I sometimes come back downstairs after she's asleep. I find that my late evening PC time winds me down from the day and lets me settle so I can sleep. If I go to bed at 10 I just lie awake still in day mode for hours.

We have a little one on the way so I'm expecting my time for my PC to get shorter. Not really sure what to expect in that regard but I'll have loads of fun with the little one for sure so it's not worrying me.

I'm going to echo what Jimmy Hellfire said above. Some people need a certain amount of me time. I certainly do. I'm an introvert and other people can wear me out. Plus I spent 9 years building my world around me and what made me happy and helped me relax (divorces are stressful!). At the moment I've not discussed having a set "me time" but my partner understands that I need this time so I grab it where I can. When the little one arrives I think we may talk about giving the other a night off regularly to just help keep us sane. So I'd take complete responsibility for everything, dinner, chores, child and she can just relax and do anything she wants or needs to have a break. And vice versa. 

I'm aware that I'll never get back to having full say over my time and I do honestly miss that so I really feel for you on this one. It's tough and for some other people it's really hard to understand why we need this time, especially for gaming. But some people need time to run, do sports, go our drinking and socialising (that's not to say we don't either) so I don't see our hobby and game time as being different to that.

So, I don't really have a lot of advice but wanted to say I completely understand you and your needs and you're not alone!


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## RenePedersen (Sep 2, 2020)

Mornats said:


> Well here's a post that resonates with me really well! I'm divorced and spent 9 years on my own before meeting my current partner. I work 8 - 4 and was usually back home by 4:30. I'm a late night person so would shut down the PC around midnight and watch Netflix for one or two episodes of whatever I was watching. So my computer time was huge. I'd get home, switch it on, sort through emails and VI Control then make dinner and do chores. So typically is be on the pc from 6-7 onwards every night. More at weekends. I'd use it for music production, photography, art and gaming. Back then I remember saying to myself that if I met someone all this would change and I'd never get this amount of time free again.
> 
> Three years ago I met my current partner and of course I was right with not having free time. So now I'm scrabbling around for a spare hour or two in the evenings where I can get some PC time. My partner goes to bed around 10 so I sometimes come back downstairs after she's asleep. I find that my late evening PC time winds me down from the day and lets me settle so I can sleep. If I go to bed at 10 I just lie awake still in day mode for hours.
> 
> ...


Thanks mate, I appreciate your take on it, it's very true.


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## Daryl (Sep 2, 2020)

I have very little to add to some of the thoughts above.

I would just like to make the point that being successful in music is not primarily about luck. There can be some luck involved, but the idea that one can just decide to become a professional musician, and make a lot of money, without a huge amount of study, practice and sheer hard work is ludicrous. Sure, there are a few who manage to get away with it, but there are thousands and thousands who don't. If you want to be certain of being successful, make sure you are good, have skills, and have craft. Believing that your lack of success is down to luck, only ensures that you will never become successful.


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## JonS (Sep 2, 2020)

Daryl said:


> I have very little to add to some of the thoughts above.
> 
> I would just like to make the point that being successful in music is not primarily about luck. There can be some luck involved, but the idea that one can just decide to become a professional musician, and make a lot of money, without a huge amount of study, practice and sheer hard work is ludicrous. Sure, there are a few who manage to get away with it, but there are thousands and thousands who don't. If you want to be certain of being successful, make sure you are good, have skills, and have craft. Believing that your lack of success is down to luck, only ensures that you will never become successful.


I did not mean to imply that one can succeed in music without hard work, determination, talent and other attributes. What I meant was that one can have all the determination and talent in the world and work as hard as possible and most will not succeed as a composer. Therefore, luck plays the most important role by far, especially if you want to be a composer for film, tv or Broadway or a top songwriter. If you told me you wanted to be the next Van Gogh I would say the same thing. I've seen too many iconic Jasper Johns paintings that are horrible, but that did not stop him from succeeding. Luck is the most important ingredient.


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## Daryl (Sep 2, 2020)

JonS said:


> I did not mean to imply that one can succeed in music without hard work, determination, talent and other attributes. What I meant was that one can have all the determination and talent in the world and work as hard as possible and most will not succeed as a composer.


I disagree. It has very little to do with luck. If you are good, you will succeed. It's only a question of degree. Show me someone who hasn't succeeded, and I will almost certainly be able to tell them where they went wrong.

Having said that, if success is a really narrow band, then yes, it might require more luck. If success has wider parameters, then, no it doesn't require much in the way of luck.

As a matter of interest, where was the luck that enabled you to become a success? Are you able to quantify it?


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## jonathanparham (Sep 2, 2020)

I saw your post and am always hesitant to comment because we're all different. Here are forum posts by various members about supporting yourself and 'making it' and time:
support yourself until you make it
before you take the leap
Do you need more education

It is a balancing act. But what you balance is going to depend on YOUR goals AND priorities. Please don't neglect your family. I see too many working successful artists that have no clue of what family is. Not because they're recluses but because the reality is they have put family on the back burner while they pursue craft. IMO that's a crapshoot. Your loved ones may loathe your success because of the lack of time you've spent with them on your journey. You'll reach success then be hated by your loved ones around you.

I believe you can have success but it's not going to be in the same amount of time as artists who don't have the same responsibilities as you do.

I also think having a significant other and kids can force you to manage your creative time better. I've crammed in 45 minutes of music work on my laptop while I waited for my children's ballet class to end. No, it wasn't all day, but I knew once I was married and had kids; the days of taking 'all day' to do something were over. I'm aware of how much time I'm taking away from writing as I'm composing this post as opposed to composing music before I have to leave to take my kid to the dr. Or time from the community meeting I'm leading tonight.

You have to get good at time management now, so when that paying gig comes, you'll know how to manage your time then. You've measured your time. Now it's time to prioritize your time. And I believe God gives us all grace and you can reorder and regroup them as well.


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## RenePedersen (Sep 2, 2020)

jonathanparham said:


> I saw your post and am always hesitant to comment because we're all different. Here are forum posts by various members about supporting yourself and 'making it' and time:
> support yourself until you make it
> before you take the leap
> Do you need more education
> ...


Thanks for taking your time to write this. I'll keep all this in mind for sure!


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## FarleyCZ (Sep 2, 2020)

I wasn't about to comment as I a) do more of an electronic stuff, b) am single and plan to stay that way for the sake of anyone that I might care and neglect for the very reasons discussed here.

...but I have to react to that "luck" thing. I agree with JonS and disagree with Daryl. I too have seen many artists that absolutely destroy even the top succesful guys by their skills. For example I know these two local producers who make, without a single grain of irony, the best dark halfstep dnb I ever had the pleasure to hear. But they are not at the top. They try. Even talked with a really big label, but a personal problems of a guy running that label (really big producer globally) stopped their whole EP from coming out. ...and that's the better version of this story, cause these guys have some connections from live playing already.
The usual way this plays out is that you have gatekeepers (label owners, guys at unions, studio executives, guys running promo channels, playlist curators and so on...) who, when dealing with demand, have at their disposal a HUGE supply of people to chose from, as the barriers for entering the field lowered substentially. To say that your skills will guarantee you, that you get noticed by those gatekeepers, is a gross and massive understatement of skills of everybody else competing with you. You HAVE been lucky, Deryl. Probably multiple times. ...that's why you feel the luck is not vital for success. But it is.


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## angeruroth (Sep 2, 2020)

Being in a similar situation I understand the dilemma.

My best recommendation would be to give your family/friends all the time you can while not being a d**k  
I mean, if I stop doing creative stuff (composing, painting, etc.) I become cranky and dark, not the one I like to be around other people, so I couldn't stop creating even if I wanted to. And I tried, too busy working to have a real life and all that nonsense... I even stopped playing my beloved guitar for almost 10yrs, but at the end of the day I was so lost...
It took me a lot to fully understand it, and it still is a WIP, but you have to try endlessly until you learn how to do it, right? At least that's where I am now. Trying endlessly.

Anyway, my situation is a bit different than yours: My little one is 3, I'm in a +-20yrs relationship, and a few years back my "mild" sleeping disorder exploded and my brain broke.
It's still hard to talk about it 'cause I'm not fully recovered, but that really bad event change the way I see the world and somehow gave me time to think about life itself. One of the things I now understand is that if you can stop for an hour or more just to ask yourself "what do I really desire?" (yeah, like the devil) you'll do yourself a great favor. You are likely to want incompatible things, most of us do, so that simple question would be a good start to assign value to those desires and balance the time and effort you give to each one. Then it's up to you how you want to apply hat knowledge.

PD: Please, do not shorten your sleeping time (someone suggested something like that in this thread). I know first hand what can happen if you do that for too long. It could potentially cost you everything!

Best,
Raúl


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## wst3 (Sep 2, 2020)

two more cents worth from someone that was in your shoes once (may not be worth all of two cents<G>)


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> I have thought about minimising my time spent in the office by quitting video games on my desktop PC and only use it for music production. <snip>


Unless you are playing video games to study the soundtracks just lose them. While they are fun, they are doing nothing to solve the problem, and in fact are probably aggravating it.

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> Turn music into a career <snip>


Easier said than done - but this makes sense. You will need a long term plan to make it happen, but it can happen.

Disclaimer - I tried to go down this path, after more years than I care to admit I decided that a second income from a handful of music gigs, along with some pro-bono work for a local theatre, was all I really needed to assuage that particular part of my character.

Disclaimer to disclaimer - my wife died almost three years ago now. I have three teen-agers in the house (was two tweens and one teen when she died). This has caused me to revisit pretty much every choice I've made over the last 20 years<G>. Making a living solely from music came off the list for me. I have my hands full just keeping things afloat. That could change when the kids all leave home?

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> Don't change anything and just try to be there as much as possible for my family and let them know that I need this in my life to stay sane and fulfilled. <snip>


I bet you already know, but this has a vanishingly small chance of succeeding. It comes under the heading of repeating the same behavior, expecting a different outcome.

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> Last resort - Break up, as I'm not really good family material and way too independent<snip>


This suggests that you are not really happy in the relationship. If that is the case then breaking up will, ultimately, be the best thing for all of you.

Disclaimer - Judi and I married about 15 months after we met. 20 years later the only regret I carry is that she isn't here to see the kids grow up, and to spend our retirement years together. With the right person I think marriage is great - absolutely the best decision I ever made. Which is to say, if you are truly unhappy then you gotta leave, but do consider all aspects carefully before doing so.

*TL;DR*
I wish you the best of luck with this, however it turns out. I have managed to carve out a live where music remains a big part, but I still have time to enjoy fatherhood and my career.


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## I like music (Sep 2, 2020)

Tried getting up an hour before everyone else, and staying up an hour later than everyone else? That still gives you 14hrs a week to do music. Its bloody hard, especially after you have been working all day, and spent time with family, to feel creative. And you've only got started and your 'hour' block is finished.

That's the only thing that has worked for me. When my wife goes to bed at 9pm on half the days, I can spend 2hrs on the computer. But most days I can't muster the energy to sit down in front of a screen at 9pm after having done it all day at work.

If it is enough of a passion and you're enjoying it, then you might have to try doing it this way.


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## Daryl (Sep 2, 2020)

FarleyCZ said:


> For example I know these two local producers who make, without a single grain of irony, the best dark halfstep dnb I ever had the pleasure to hear. But they are not at the top. They try. Even talked with a really big label, but a personal problems of a guy running that label (really big producer globally) stopped their whole EP from coming out. ...and that's the better version of this story, cause these guys have some connections from live playing already.



OK, I'll bite. How many years of studying music did they do? What instruments do they play, and to what level? How many hours of practice do they do every day?



FarleyCZ said:


> You HAVE been lucky, Deryl. Probably multiple times. ...that's why you feel the luck is not vital for success. But it is.



Probably 5% or so. The rest is my own doing. I can tell you exactly how and why I got where I am. The sooner people accept that they can change their path, the sooner they will do so and stop blaming "luck" for their lack of success.


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## MartinH. (Sep 2, 2020)

FarleyCZ said:


> I wasn't about to comment as I [...] am single and plan to stay that way for the sake of anyone that I might care and neglect for the very reasons discussed here.



Why do you think it's impossible to find a partner that also needs massive amounts of me-time and doesn't want kids? They may be harder to find but they do exist for sure.


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## JonS (Sep 2, 2020)

Daryl said:


> OK, I'll bite. How many years of studying music did they do? What instruments do they play, and to what level? How many hours of practice do they do every day?
> 
> 
> 
> Probably 5% or so. The rest is my own doing. I can tell you exactly how and why I got where I am. The sooner people accept that they can change their path, the sooner they will do so and stop blaming "luck" for their lack of success.


It is completely different to aspire to be a session musician than a composer. Musicians put in 15,000 to 20,000 hours of practice to be at a level where they can get regular gigs with an studio orchestra. In this regard, luck plays a much smaller role than hard work and enormous hours of practice. However, I was specifically taking about being a composer or songwriter, where luck plays the most significant role in success. And, they can’t teach you innovation or originality in music school, so that won’t necessarily help either.


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## Daryl (Sep 2, 2020)

JonS said:


> It is completely different to aspire to be a session musician than a composer. Musicians put in 15,000 to 20,000 hours of practice to be at a level where they can get regular gigs with an studio orchestra.


And composers spend hours learning to play instruments, studying orchestration, conducting, practising their craft. Or do you think that this sort of hard work doesn't apply to composers?


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## Henu (Sep 2, 2020)

I know exactly well what you're talking about - and trust me, my wife and three kids know it too. Music isn't only my job and a hobby, but pretty much almost _everything_ since I can remember into an extent it's sometimes not even healthy anymore.

I was going to write a lenghty post about this but first of all, it's not about me and secondly, if I write too lenghty (as I always do), someone's going to to suffer from it and in this case it's my middle kid who needs help with her homework, hah!

To cut it short, don't divorce due to wanting to write more music. That's a bad short-term solution and way too heavy price to pay for everyone of your family. While music is life, life is meaningless without the people who you care about and who care about you, no matter how much one enjoys being alone. I've been left once mostly due to this reason after almost seven years, and trust me, it gives perspective to things.

While I too often find myself in the exactly same situation continuing on working while the rest of the family is going somewhere, I often tell myself to shut the machines down and DO STUFF. In the evenings when the kids have gone sleep and we have some little "me" time with my wife, it becomes "us" time an hour later. We talk, watch TV, play video games, go to sauna and sometimes have a glass of wine. Especially on weekends.

Many of us could sit endless hours on our computers writing and producing music and yet we'd feel there's not enough time to do it all. Even if we do it for our living, countless of hours a day. We would _always_ do it more if we could.

There is never enough time. Embrace it and enjoy life before it runs out.


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## Mornats (Sep 2, 2020)

Henu said:


> Many of us could sit endless hours on our computers writing and producing music and yet we'd feel there's not enough time to do it all. Even if we do it for our living, countless of hours a day. We would _always_ do it more if we could.



Absolutely. I had something like 6 hours most evenings, plus all day and night at the weekend and felt I could still do more if I had more time. These days I think I've become a bit more focused. I know I have little time to do stuff so I need a plan when I sit down at the PC. Am I going to compose? Mix something? Or learn more about some of my sample libraries and if so, which ones?


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## Trash Panda (Sep 2, 2020)

These types of questions are really hard for other people to answer because it's subjective in nature.

You need to ask yourself some hard questions, answer yourself honestly (not society's expectation of how you should answer) and then make the hard decisions however they may come out so you can get out of life what you want.

Imagine you're 70 or 80 years old looking back on your life based on your current path. Would you be content with where you think it will go based on where it is and where it appears to be heading? If the answer is no, then you need to come up with a plan on how to get there, not just career-wise, but family-wise too.

If the most important thing to you is family and your biggest regret would be not spending enough time engaged with the family, make that your priority above all else and accept that you're going to make sacrifices to personal hobby time or have to find other ways to compromise, such as getting used to very short periods of "me" time and having some days where you have none.

At the end of the day, in DAW terms, the different elements of your life - career, family, personal pursuits - are not solo switches. They're volume/send sliders. Only you can figure out how much to dial in from each element into your master bus (life) while avoiding clipping (burnout, depression, sleep deprivation, hypertension, etc.). Sure, you can use compressors/limiters (caffeine, less sleep, etc.) to give yourself some more headroom, but those can also have drawbacks later down the line. Using some automation to dial back some elements at the appropriate time and dial in more of the others when appropriate is a delicate balancing act.

OK, this analogy is getting weird and I think (hope) I've communicated this successfully.

Good luck in determining the path your journey will take!


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## Mornats (Sep 2, 2020)

The Serinator said:


> At the end of the day, in DAW terms, the different elements of your life - career, family, personal pursuits - are not solo switches. They're volume/send sliders. Only you can figure out how much to dial in from each element into your master bus (life) while avoiding clipping (burnout, depression, sleep deprivation, hypertension, etc.). Sure, you can use compressors/limiters (caffeine, less sleep, etc.) to give yourself some more headroom, but those can also have drawbacks later down the line.



This made me chuckle, well done  What would your analogy of true legato be? (Has to be asked sorry!)


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## Trash Panda (Sep 2, 2020)

Mornats said:


> This made me chuckle, well done  What would your analogy of true legato be? (Has to be asked sorry!)


Not sure about legato, but I'd probably say complaints about lack of portamento in a string library is the equivalent of Grandpa Simpson yelling at a cloud.


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## InLight-Tone (Sep 2, 2020)

JonS said:


> Don’t quit your job. It’s almost impossible to turn music into a career. The ones who make money in the music industry are mostly lucky 🍀 as all the hard work, talent, determination and charisma doesn’t mean anything in this biz, luck plays the most important role.


That's an OPINION, not a FACT. One thing is certain, that with that mental outlook, YOU will never succeed in music...


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## InLight-Tone (Sep 2, 2020)

RenePedersen said:


> I absolutely agree, I'm not going to quit video games I already considered that a few times, but she didn't want me to let go of the things that brings me joy, but just asked for me to spend more time with them. I need video games in my life, they make me creative and make me feel good in general, they are partly the reason why I started composing in the first place.
> 
> About standards, I know and need to learn to stop beating myself up, I'm working on that.


In my opinion, video games are one of the biggest wastes of human TIME imaginable. Do something productive like spend time in NATURE/REALITY and claim you LIFE back...


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## Crowe (Sep 2, 2020)

I am not in your position and go to great lengths to make sure it stays that way. My partner and I have no wish for children and both desire and need a lot of personal time.

What I did was select a career that enabled me to work less and less as time went on and my worth as an employee grew. In times this didn't seem financially feasible, I moved house or changed my lifestyle rather than raise my working hours. When I tell people this, they'll often look at me askance as if I'm mad but I feel this is the sanest thing I've done in my entire life.

You have to create your own status quo.

Now, I can't in good conscience say this is how it should be for you, but in my social environment I have no friends who have partners that work, yet work more than 4 days. It shouldn't be necessary.

I'm still, ad infinitum, working on sound design and music and hope to earn more and more little by little that way, until the day I can actually do what I love for a living. But I can never give up the time I spend on my arts. That way madness lies.

Also ignore the guy above me, RECREATION is one of the most valuable PASTIMES a HUMAN can HAVE. Who the hell do you think you are to proclaim my hobbies are a waste of time? Piss off.


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## JonS (Sep 2, 2020)

InLight-Tone said:


> That's an OPINION, not a FACT. One thing is certain, that with that mental outlook, YOU will never succeed in music...


Who said I’m not already successful? You don’t know what you are talking about. Also, everything anyone says is only a subjective opinion from their own perception. Speak with any billionaire or successful top producer on Broadway and they will all tell you luck plays the most significant role in success. So, you are inexperienced and delusional. You have made a lot of rude comments before, so I’m not surprised by you at all.


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## RenePedersen (Sep 2, 2020)

Guys this is not a thread about whether music requires luck or not to be successful, as it's just making people argue. Please stay on topic, thank you.


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## Daryl (Sep 2, 2020)

RenePedersen said:


> Guys this is not a thread about whether music requires luck or not to be successful, as it's just making people argue. Please stay on topic, thank you.


Well, in a way it is. If you believe that all you need is to be lucky, in order to be successful in music, you are assuming that there is nothing you can do to help yourself and success is out of your hands. If you believe that hard work is how "luck" is made, then a whole other set of choices have to be made. All of this reflects actions that will affect your private life, I'm afraid.


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## Crowe (Sep 2, 2020)

RenePedersen said:


> Guys this is not a thread about whether music requires luck or not to be successful, as it's just making people argue. Please stay on topic, thank you.



You're right, it's not. But the road to becoming succesful in anything is actually the same in many ways for many, many things. You need to know exactly what it is you want and, even if it seems impossible, chip and hack away at it bit by bit with a clear goal in mind to get to where you want to be. You can ask us what you should do, but what you should do is make up your mind about what it is you want most. And then go get it. No matter what you have to sacrifice.

That came out slightly more ominous than intended, but the spirit in which it was said is spot on.


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## Mornats (Sep 2, 2020)

InLight-Tone said:


> In my opinion, video games are one of the biggest wastes of human TIME imaginable. Do something productive like spend time in NATURE/REALITY and claim you LIFE back...


I know people who think the same way about music, films, books and sports.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 2, 2020)

InLight-Tone said:


> In my opinion, video games are one of the biggest wastes of human TIME imaginable. Do something productive like spend time in NATURE/REALITY and claim you LIFE back...


That's an OPINION, not a FACT. 

Perhaps young people might be well-advised to enjoy great video games instead of running after the Peter Pan fantasy of believing in a career in music.


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## Montisquirrel (Sep 2, 2020)

I can understand the music/creativity vs family thing. But I honestly don't understand that video game vs family thing.

I played a lot of video games, even after marriage, but when my first child was born I stopped and I don't miss it at all. If you can't stop that, maybe it's about addiction and you should work on that.

Maybe I sound rude, but boy, wake up and stopp that video game addiction, enjoy making music and take time for your family.


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## InLight-Tone (Sep 2, 2020)

JonS said:


> Who said I’m not already successful? You don’t know what you are talking about. Also, everything anyone says is only a subjective opinion from their own perception. Speak with any billionaire or successful top producer on Broadway and they will all tell you luck plays the most significant role in success. So, you are inexperienced and delusional. You have made a lot of rude comments before, so I’m not surprised by you at all.


There was absolutely NOTHING rude about my comment whatsoever...


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## RenePedersen (Sep 2, 2020)

Montisquirrel said:


> I can understand the music/creativity vs family thing. But I honestly don't understand that video game vs family thing.
> 
> I played a lot of video games, even after marriage, but when my first child was born I stopped and I don't miss it at all. If you can't stop that, maybe it's about addiction and you should work on that.
> 
> Maybe I sound rude, but boy, wake up and stopp that video game addiction, enjoy making music and take time for your family.


I don't do nearly as much gaming as I used to and it was actually how me and my partner met online, so we both play together and enjoy that from time to time. 

It's more about me spending time on my own than gaming, I just end up sitting in a different room no matter what I'm doing, because I'm introverted and have no problem being on my own. 

You are entitled to have your opinion on video games, I won't take that away from you.


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## Crowe (Sep 2, 2020)

InLight-Tone said:


> There was absolutely NOTHING rude about my comment whatsoever...



There were quite a few things rude about your comment. Maybe little dignity would grant some perspective.



> I played a lot of video games, even after marriage, but when my first child was born I stopped and I don't miss it at all. If you can't stop that, maybe it's about addiction and you should work on that.
> 
> Maybe I sound rude, but boy, wake up and stop that video game addiction, enjoy making music and take time for your family.



Whoah, calm down there man. Telling people they have an addiction because they have things that make them happy is assuming a *lot*. Different people have different priorities. For me, any kind of fiction, be it movies, books or video games are an integral part of my life. Just because they're not an integral part of your life doesn't mean they can't be vitally important to someone else.

That said, obviously I could never be in a relationship with someone who couldn't respect that, so I wouldn't be.


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## FarleyCZ (Sep 2, 2020)

Daryl said:


> OK, I'll bite. How many years of studying music did they do? What instruments do they play, and to what level? How many hours of practice do they do every day?


I have no idea. I suspect a lot hearing the music they make. As far as required skills go, sound-design heavy drum and bass music is hard to compare on forum like this, where the main topic is orchestral stuff, but they are easily on Noisa-level production and overall musical quality. And they are not the only ones. As far as it pains me, that I'm not on the same level, I've heard amazing "record deal ready" stuff from all over the internet. Across all the generes I care about. ...and that inevitably creates a competition for the spotlight. Which handful of people win, most of the others lose. It's THAT simple. 

Honestly I don't mean it as an excuse. I myself am shit, I know it, and I'm certain luck has nothing to do with that. But the opinion that hard work will get you far every time is quite dangerous. I have the privilege to know I'm crappy. But that might not be true for everyone. ...and you might as well get into a vicious cycle of chasing a dream that will simply never happen. That is inconvenient when your young, it hurts when you're older, and it can get REALLY nasty if you start giving up other stuff you love for a false dream like that. Especially family.


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## Gerbil (Sep 2, 2020)

Daryl said:


> I disagree. It has very little to do with luck. If you are good, you will succeed. It's only a question of degree. Show me someone who hasn't succeeded, and I will almost certainly be able to tell them where they went wrong.


My piano tutor and colleague, Alasdair Graham, had a massive mental breakdown when he was just finding his feet as a concert pianist and was never able to return to the stage. A fantastic musician, he (wrongly in my opinion ) considered his career as something of a failure. That's just one person. I don't know about good luck, but I've seen bad luck strike many in life, all hard-working gifted people. They didn't go wrong, they were dealt a very bad hand.

On-topic:

I think it's good that you've worked out what the problem is. Personally, family will always come first. My father left my family when I was a kid and I practically had to bring up my sister while my mother was in and out of hospital. I swore that if I ever had a family that they'd take priority. My kids are well in their teens so time is more my own now but I'd have big regrets if I hadn't spent time with them. It's very difficult to advise you as an outsider on the intenet. I'm sure it will work out ok whatever.


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## Crowe (Sep 2, 2020)

Gerbil said:


> I think it's good that you've worked out what the problem is. Personally, family will always come first. My father left my family when I was a kid and I practically had to bring up my sister while my mother was in and out of hospital. I swore that if I ever had a family that they'd take priority. My kids are well in their teens so time is more my own now but I'd have big regrets if I hadn't spent time with them. It's very difficult to advise you as an outsider on the intenet. I'm sure it will work out ok whatever.



I applaud you. My half-sister one day just up and left her man and three children to do whatever the f*** she wanted. I swore that I could never do something like that to my potential children. Of course, I opted to not have any for other reasons, but the point is, got children? Better be good to them.

I'm quite happy being the slightly mad uncle to the other kids in my direct environment.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 2, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> My half-sister one day just up and left her man and three children to do whatever the f*** she wanted.



BOSS move.

I knew a woman like that. She was the bomb.


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## Crowe (Sep 2, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> BOSS move.
> 
> I knew a woman like that. She was the bomb.



I hope she exploded.


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## RenePedersen (Sep 2, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> BOSS move.
> 
> I knew a woman like that. She was the bomb.


Sounds like my mom to be honest lol.


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## jonathanparham (Sep 2, 2020)

Pausing in my day to see that this thread has gone multiple directions.


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## MartinH. (Sep 2, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> but what you should do is make up your mind about what it is you want most



What if someone can't answer that though? I find answering that question to be the hardest part and if you can't, you're really lost because there isn't much good advice for these people. There are so many strategies for reaching goals, but if you don't have any, it's tough.




FarleyCZ said:


> but they are easily on Noisa-level production and overall musical quality.



If they're also writing in a style similar to Noisia, Spor, and darker Neurofunk in general, please drop a link or send it to me via DM. I'd love to check them out.


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## b_elliott (Sep 2, 2020)

If I were in your shoes there would be two questions I would ponder:
What am I really trying to stop? 
Then, 
What's safe?
Peace.


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## Crowe (Sep 2, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> What if someone can't answer that though? I find answering that question to be the hardest part and if you can't, you're really lost because there isn't much good advice for these people. There are so many strategies for reaching goals, but if you don't have any, it's tough.



Oh yeah. Took me a couple of years in therapy to get there. I always hope other people are marginally more well adjusted than I am.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 2, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> I hope she exploded.



Devoted christian?


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## Crowe (Sep 2, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Devoted christian?



Me? That's funny.

And my name isn't Christian.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 2, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> Me? That's funny.
> 
> And my name isn't Christian.



I presented you that one on a silver plate, you know that.


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## Montisquirrel (Sep 2, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> Whoah, calm down there man. Telling people they have an addiction because they have things that make them happy is assuming a *lot*. Different people have different priorities. For me, any kind of fiction, be it movies, books or video games are an integral part of my life. Just because they're not an integral part of your life doesn't mean they can't be vitally important to someone else.
> 
> That said, obviously I could never be in a relationship with someone who couldn't respect that, so I wouldn't be.



I said "maybe". He started that thread and gaming addiction is something that exists and I have seen relations got destroyed because of this, so there is nothing wrong to consider it. Many people who are addicted don't realize it in the beginning. Just wanted to help. 
Yes, I agree with you, different people have different priorities, and some people (including me) need more "me time" than others. BUT when it comes down to family or video gaming.... come on, the solution is very easy.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 2, 2020)

Montisquirrel said:


> I said "maybe". He started that thread and gaming addiction is something that exists and I have seen relations got destroyed because of this, so there is nothing wrong to consider it. Many people who are addicted don't realize it in the beginning. Just wanted to help.
> Yes, I agree with you, different people have different priorities, and some people (including me) need more "me time" than others. BUT when it comes down to family or video gaming.... come on, the solution is very easy.



Yeah. Might be gaming. Why not?


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## MartinH. (Sep 2, 2020)

My girlfriend just sent me this:


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## telecode101 (Sep 2, 2020)

..


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## angeruroth (Sep 2, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> My girlfriend just sent me this:



Hell, that puzzle I can't solve. Is there a tutorial or something?


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## Greeno (Sep 3, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Strictly speaking the same could be said for streamers and speedrunners. At the moment I spend more time with music than games too, but I wouldn't discount them so easily. Fully cutting gaming out of your life is basically like ignoring an entire art medium. It's like someone saying "I'll cut listening to music out of my life because it takes too much time away from recording podcasts". If you want to do that, then more power to you, but I don't think it's fair to say that making music is better use of time than other hobbies. I've basically cut reading novels out of my life but I'd never tell people "Stop reading novels, you're not creating anything when you read a book, so it's basically a waste of time."
> 
> 
> 
> Well, make sure you stay realistic with the standards you set for yourself! Setting those too high is a surefire way to make yourself miserable.


I said , for me.
I didn't say stop it altogether and that it was a waste of time!


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## telecode101 (Sep 3, 2020)

..


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 3, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> My girlfriend just sent me this:




Just eliminate the "work" and "family" parts and all the other stuff becomes very easy. I'm getting there!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 3, 2020)

telecode101 said:


> hmm, i don't see how gaming is an art medium and could be compared to music listening or creating music or creating art. i am a different generation. i wasted away days playing quake and diablo long time ago. it was not art. it was a big time waster. nothing got created from that experience other than loss of eye sight.



Gaming has developed. Mostly not, of course. It's the same as movies, or music - 99% of it is pulp, but here and there, something pops up that shows the true potential of the medium. 

Video games are the singular non-passive entertainment medium, and within that lies an incredible promise. Some games tap into that and create truly immersive experiences that make the sensomotoric or spatial sense of the player, or their character values and expectations a vital part of the design. It only ever starts becoming real once the audience accepts to exist in that space. That's unique and can be fascinating.


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## MartinH. (Sep 3, 2020)

telecode101 said:


> i don't see how gaming is an art medium and could be compared to music listening





telecode101 said:


> i wasted away days playing quake and diablo long time ago. it was not art.


Diablo is a glorified skinner box and quake's development was lead by someone who famously said: "Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important.". If that's the peak of gaming that you've experienced I can understand why you don't think highly of the medium. But in my opinion that is the equivalent of only knowing the most monotone techno genre and concluding music isn't art. If you haven't played games like Deus Ex, Thief, System Shock 2 or Fallout, you've missed out on some of the best releases of that era.




telecode101 said:


> ther than loss of eye sight.











Video Games Improve Vision, Study Says


Video game players may get an unexpected benefit from blowing away bad guys—better vision.




www.nationalgeographic.com


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## Mornats (Sep 3, 2020)

telecode101 said:


> hmm, i don't see how gaming is an art medium and could be compared to music listening or creating music or creating art. i am a different generation. i wasted away days playing quake and diablo long time ago. it was not art. it was a big time waster. nothing got created from that experience other than loss of eye sight.



I respect your opinion about gaming (we all see it differently) but just wanted to say that your comments could also equally apply to watching sports. I know that no one is calling it an art form (well, some might) but ultimately you get nothing out of watching sport other than the pleasure of watching it. It's the same as gaming except without the stigmatism that is attached to gaming. If you're a huge football (soccer for you US folk) fan, imagine how you'd feel if someone said it was a waste of time and you should give it up. (I'm not saying you said this by the way, it's a general statement.) I'm as passionate about gaming as my friend is about supporting Newcastle United.


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## Mornats (Sep 3, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Gaming has developed. Mostly not, of course. It's the same as movies, or music - 99% of it is pulp, but here and there, something pops up that shows the true potential of the medium.
> 
> Video games are the singular non-passive entertainment medium, and within that lies an incredible promise. Some games tap into that and create truly immersive experiences that make the sensomotoric or spatial sense of the player, or their character values and expectations a vital part of the design. It only ever starts becoming real once the audience accepts to exist in that space. That's unique and can be fascinating.


Personally, I'd argue that much less than 99% of games are pulp but yes, there's some pulp out there and that pulp may be the extent of some people's experience or perception of gaming.

There's a lot of story-driven games that are effectively interactive stories of the quality you'd find in novels or movies. What Became of Edith Finch comes to mind as a stand-out example. The Witcher 3 had a good storyline, as do many roleplaying games. It can be a culturally rich medium but also has a lot of mindless shooters (which can still be fun and a good tension release tool!)


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## MartinH. (Sep 3, 2020)

Mornats said:


> I respect your opinion about gaming (we all see it differently) but just wanted to say that your comments could also equally apply to watching sports. I know that no one is calling it an art form (well, some might) but ultimately you get nothing out of watching sport other than the pleasure of watching it. It's the same as gaming except without the stigmatism that is attached to gaming. If you're a huge football (soccer for you US folk) fan, imagine how you'd feel if someone said it was a waste of time and you should give it up. (I'm not saying you said this by the way, it's a general statement.) I'm as passionate about gaming as my friend is about supporting Newcastle United.



Isn't watching sports more like watching others play (watching streamers or e-sports tournaments for example), and playing games more like doing sports?


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## Mornats (Sep 3, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Isn't watching sports more like watching others play (watching streamers or e-sports tournaments for example), and playing games more like doing sports?


Kind of. I didn't mention that as you get physical exercise from playing sports and that's a tangible benefit you don't get from eSports so I would argue that you can't really say playing sports is a waste of time so the comparison broke down there.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 3, 2020)

Mornats said:


> mindless shooters (which can still be fun and a good tension release tool!)



I never understood anyway why people cling to this weird idea that gaming, more than anything, was this almost immoral way of "wasting" one's time. Maybe it's capitalism or some shit like that, and people having been force-fed this idea that their existence is only valid if they're "productive".

As if people did anything different than to "waste" time most of their lives. Toying with stuff for recreational purposes is something humanity did for as long as it existed. All of a sudden it's this terribly reprehensible thing when you're doing it on a computer screen. it just doesn't make any sense at all. It's some misplaced moral high ground complex.


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## Mornats (Sep 3, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I never understood anyway why people cling to this weird idea that gaming, more than anything, was this almost immoral way of "wasting" one's time.


It's fear of the unknown I think. But I kinda get it. I love watching good TV shows but can't understand why anyone would watch something like a British soap opera (EastEnders, Coronation Street etc. ) as they typically follow the dismal lives of ordinary people. For me that's the equivalent of simply staring out of the window at my neighbours. It sounds mind-numbing yet people tune in day after day. I see it as a massive waste of time as I simply don't get it but others do get pleasure out of it so fair enough.

Apologies for going off on a tangent in this thread, but I hope it's helped to shed light on why some of us do not see gaming as a waste of time and why it's not a simple case of giving it up. It's like asking someone to give up TV, watching sports, reading, socialising with friends or music.


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