# Advantages using notation software vs. DAW?



## Henu (Sep 19, 2022)

Hey peeps,

I tried to find topics on the subject, but didn't really find anything answering my question, so let's see if anyone could help me out.

I've dipped my toes into Dorico a couple of times by preparing some notes for solo players and I've felt like I'd be curious to start using it a bit more in my workflow. I've watched a lot of tutorial videos and read the manual and just generally fooled around with it, but I'm still a bit unsure if it's something that would benefit me. So I'd like to ask for some advice.

I don't write with pen and paper because for me it's way faster to play the ideas in for a quick sketch. When the sketch is ready, I import the mixdown into Cubase where I have a template of pre-balanced playable orchestral instruments where I start arranging and orchestrating the sketch from scratch. No keyswitches, no gimmicks, only concentrating on the actual arrangement and orchestration. That template is basically my "poor man's Dorico" in a way because I only concentrate on orchestral color, balance, dynamics and harmony. When the orchestration is done, I import all the tracks into a new project with proper sample libraries and expression maps and start preparing the final version out of it.

Technically, my current workflow gives me the opportunity to quickly try different variations, colors and switch ideas around really quickly and I'm wondering what sort of advantages would using Dorico (and Noteperfomer) bring to the table for me? I don't engrave stuff, nor do I prepare sheet music for orchestras, and when I need to deliver notes to players, I am able to do those in Dorico with midi files imported from Cubase.

Using a notation software instead of Cubase would absolutely develop both my notation reading and writing, but I'm a bit unsure what else it would bring to the table as I feel I am able to work way faster (at least for now) inside Cubase. Do you think I would benefit me learning to use Dorico instead of Cubase, and if so, what would be the advantages you could think of?


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## d.healey (Sep 19, 2022)

Henu said:


> Do you think I would benefit me learning to use Dorico instead of Cubase


Can't you use both?

My workflow 99% of the time is to sketch (in detail) with notation, then I create the mockup (performance) in the DAW.

If you go down the notation route I recommend ScoreClub's videos (actually I recommend them even if you don't use notation).


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## proggermusic (Sep 19, 2022)

Both! These days, I think the most pro move for anyone in the industry is to have a well-formatted, easy-to-read written chart as well as a decent-sounding demo. My workflow is usually to produce as good a demo as I can in Logic and then transcribe my own work into Finale. I think there are numerous benefits to doing it that way, but of course every pro will have his or her own preferred flow that will work just as well, I'm sure.


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## Henu (Sep 19, 2022)

Yes, I could use both, but in order to invest some time in this mental car crash life of mine (kids, deadlines, housekeeping, all that, hah!) I'm basically looking for "a reason to do so", if you get what I mean. One reason would already be that I could provide stuff to live players (a luxury I've been granted at work....while having been avoiding it way too much) way easier from the start.

I'm ok with notation in general as I have educational background on that, but I use it so shamefully little nowadays that I'm excruciatingly slow on writing (and slow on reading) rhythms- I'd just need to do it more, more and more to get a grip on it. My last time as a student was 20 years ago and I still hate alto clef and wish it would die, but I've at least been trying to refresh and improve my reading and writing for the last couple of years with books and scores.

But generally, I'm not afraid of having to notate, I'm more afraid of losing half of my harmonic ideas at the time I've finally managed to write down that first bar of a trumpet passage. :D


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## Beyond4A (Sep 19, 2022)

Well, we all work in different ways and "if it ain't broke . . ." but tweaking your workflow or adapting others' into your own can only help.

I can't do classical music in a DAW at any stage. Looking at tracks and/or a piano roll in a DAW mean nothing to me. I need notes on a staff. Obviously, if you work with audio, or drums samples, and you're reliant on vast plug-ins and soft synths, nothing compares to a DAW. But I work with none of that.

Dorico's "Flows" are an important part of my, ummm, work flow. I do a piano sketch (usually 2-3 grand staffs) in the first Flow, then after the sketch(s), I create my orchestral template (or use one of Dorico's premade templates). Then every day I duplicate my current Flow and change the new Flow's title (in Setup mode) to "title, date, version no." I like to create different version (almost) each time I work on a piece so I can always look back at previous version in case an orchestration or arrangement sounded better.

I almost exclusively use NotePerformer at the moment. That said, NotePerfomer performs best with the more markings on your scores (dynamics, hairpins, etc.). I also do all my CC editing in Dorico. I'm not a heavy MIDI data guy, so I only know the basics (drawing volume and tempo curves, and editing velocity). I'll also go in and adjust start/end times to humanize duplicated runs. I wish I knew more, but I have no interest at the moment of going down that rabbit hole.

Every year that goes by Dorico makes my composing workflow easier and better. I find it a joy to work with. Mastering is not my forte, so I completely understand those that want to export their files to a DAW and tweak away until it's perfect.


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## jbuhler (Sep 19, 2022)

Personally, I can't stand composing with a notation program. Just too many frictions. I use notation programs to make up musical examples for publication and in the rare occasions when I need to make parts for performance. But in the latter case I'm always exporting from DAW to notation program. I never start composition in the notation program. When I find it useful to work compositionally with notation, I use pencil and manuscript paper not a notation program.


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## Woodie1972 (Sep 19, 2022)

I second what Beyond4A writes above: a piano roll is not my cup of tea, I can read it, but more complex pieces and orchestration take a lot more time to create, when compared to notation.

I compose in Dorico, used Finale for >20 years, but the software is showing its age more and more, plus the fact that playback is terrible, unless you use Noteperformer, but then you're left with all those nice libraries on your HD. Despite having tried to master Cubase as composing and mastering software for several years, I decided to take the plunge on Dorico and, although it's not perfect, it really is a great piece of software, for me the best combination of notation and DAW features. Not as sophisticated as the major DAW's, but for me it is more than enough.

You play the piano well, I guess (which I don't play so well), so a DAW is great then for sketching. Reading about your workflow and not really the need for notation to compose, I think the way you do it now, doesn't ask for a different approach.


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## GtrString (Sep 19, 2022)

The only scenarios I would use a notation programme in would be if I needed a classical player to come in and do a part, or hand over my score to an orchestra to record it. 

Neither is ever likely to happen, so it's somewhere at the bottom of my 100 things to do list.


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## Chris Schmidt (Sep 20, 2022)

The struggle is real, and is one I've been having for many, many years.

The unfortunate reality that I've come to accept is, and what seems to be consensus: There just simply does not exist a good option for "bridging the gap" between Notation and DAW.

Notation offers many advantages from a purely-composition standpoint that, if you are someone who didn't start with notation, you probably won't be able to appreciate but they are there all the same I think.

The main things are: You can compose and realize the piece of music much faster than in a DAW, without sacrificing quality. In fact, my personal experience and observation watching other composers work, is that pieces (in most genres anyway) composed this way tend to come out better most of the time.

You can work at it much more organically, and without the oppressive nature of the click track and recording. It feels much more like working on a drawing or painting. You can start with just 1 bar of music, and then really think about "what comes next" without forgetting what you previously wrote. You tend to compose with much more purpose as a result; every note is there for a good musical reason that you likely thought about beforehand.

It really feels like you are _composing_, that you are building up something greater that starts with a small but strong foundation, whereas DAWs, by their nature force a lot more spontaneity and flying by the seat of your pants and aren't really conducive to much more "methodical" and deliberate composing. Really just because DAWs are primarily recording software.

You also won't have to worry about balancing everything so much, tweaking stuff, screwing around with MIDI CCs or whatever and perhaps most of all: You won't be writing so much to sample limitations.

Where the problem comes in, is that turning this piece into a MIDI mockup, after the process of composing it went so much more smoothly, is completely-laborious, boring and often frustrating because after you've been effectively writing for live players, you may run into snags in trying to mock-up what should otherwise be a very simple part.

I definitely believe that for most, if you master notation software (which doesn't take as long as you might think), you will find it very freeing, satisfying, efficient, and fast to compose with notation...but you may find that you tap out and don't realize as many of your pieces as mockups.

The only real solution I think, is for more devs to focus on developing superior virtual instruments specifically tailored to Notation software — but since the majority of the consumer base for VSTis are DAW composers/songwriters who can't even read tab or notation, the financial incentives to make such products probably aren't there.


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## mikeh-375 (Sep 20, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> Personally, I can't stand composing with a notation program. Just too many frictions. I use notation programs to make up musical examples for publication and in the rare occasions when I need to make parts for performance. But in the latter case I'm always exporting from DAW to notation program. I never start composition in the notation program. When I find it useful to work compositionally with notation, I use pencil and manuscript paper not a notation program.


I've been on pencil, paper and manuscript all my musical life. However, last year I splashed out and got a Surface Studio. The touch screen is beautiful and with a stylus, works really well with Sibelius and midi keyboard input. I find I can work almost as fast but do keep a bit a manuscript on the side for some quick working out. At least I've cut out a stage in the Manuscript to Notation software to DAW routine and I am cutting right back on paper usage....and pencil rubber usage.


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## Woodie1972 (Sep 20, 2022)

@Chris Schmidt: I do agree with you a lot, but don't forget that a lot of the music we enjoy (especially soundtracks), composed by some of the leading (film)composers nowadays, are written in one of the major DAW's. When you play piano/ keyboard well and are good at improvisation, a DAW can be a great tool in the hands of a capable person. To say that writing in notation is much more composing than in a DAW is a statement I think is not true. It's different for everyone, but it is not necessarily better.


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## J-M (Sep 20, 2022)

As someone who started writing with a DAW+samples and has little notation experience (not counting those piano lessons as a kid) I actually find the combination of Dorico and Noteperformer way more efficient to work with when it comes to orchestral music. Just put in the notes, correct markings and 99% of the time that's all you need to do to make it sound right in Dorico. Now, all of that goes out the window the instant you drop the MIDI into your DAW for a mockup...


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## waveheavy (Sep 20, 2022)

Yeah, who needs notation when all they're doing is writing standard chord progressions common to today's styles of music. I agree, why waste time with notation if that's all one is doing. It's easy to write out a chord chart on paper using the Nashville number system.


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## Chris Schmidt (Sep 20, 2022)

Woodie1972 said:


> To say that writing in notation is much more composing than in a DAW is a statement I think is not true


I'm not suggesting that composing in a DAW doesn't make you a "real" composer or something

But for hundreds of years, maybe more accurately thousands, notation developed right alongside the evolution of the craft of composing, and this was the method that basically every composer up until the last few decades of world history used.

You might say that this is because that's the only method they had to record their music, and that is true.

But it is also true that this has necessarily influenced composition and how people approach and think about it as well, and DAWs have existed for not even an eye blink in all of history, and the experience of composing in one is indeed different from composing with notation software or pen and paper.

My usual justification for doing things a certain way in music is "it's what the masters did" and I have found that to be extremely helpful more than just about any other philosophy.

And the masters all used notation to compose their pieces, including many living ones like Williams, so putting yourself in that same situation and closer to their perspective and experience with composing I absolutely believe pays serious dividends that, even if you still wind up composing mostly in a DAW (and I still do a lot of DAW composing too), is still a skill and outlook worth learning.


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## Ivan Duch (Sep 20, 2022)

For me notation makes the sketching/composition process simpler and more enjoyable (the latter being huge for my motivation). I used to start most of my sketches on paper before getting to the DAW. Lately, I write very rough sketches on paper, orchestrate them on Dorico and finally produce them on Reaper.

The big plus of notation is that you can edit and read lots of notes and instruments from the same screen and simultaneously. You kinda can do that with a piano roll but doesn't work the same way for me. That, plus shortcuts makes it way faster than inputting via recording or a piano roll in my experience, which I think is a plus during composition.


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## Woodie1972 (Sep 20, 2022)

waveheavy said:


> Yeah, who needs notation when all they're doing is writing standard chord progressions common to today's styles of music. I agree, why waste time with notation if that's all one is doing. It's easy to write out a chord chart on paper using the Nashville number system.


Unless you're being cynical, that's a pretty arrogant statement you make.


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## Wensleydale (Sep 20, 2022)

If I’ve understood correctly, the consensus in this thread seems to be that the choice is between composing with notation software and composing (with piano roll) in a DAW. Doesn’t anyone compromise by using notation within a DAW, such as Logic’s score editor? I used to be comfortable with Sibelius (until Avid’s pricing drove me away) but I don’t really need a notation program and I’d love to do everything in Logic if possible. But I’m still learning Logic and I’ve barely scratched the surface of the score editor, so I’m curious to know why this option isn’t more popular.


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## Al Maurice (Sep 21, 2022)

Wensleydale said:


> If I’ve understood correctly, the consensus in this thread seems to be that the choice is between composing with notation software and composing (with piano roll) in a DAW. Doesn’t anyone compromise by using notation within a DAW, such as Logic’s score editor? I used to be comfortable with Sibelius (until Avid’s pricing drove me away) but I don’t really need a notation program and I’d love to do everything in Logic if possible. But I’m still learning Logic and I’ve barely scratched the surface of the score editor, so I’m curious to know why this option isn’t more popular.


Actually I do that: I doubt we will ever reach a consenus here.

To me the DAW's score view is a good balance between the two, it allows me to move back and forth, and quickly flesh out my ideas. Notation apps for me, seem to be more about adding the final flourishes, producing the instrument parts ready for dissemination.


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## waveheavy (Sep 21, 2022)

Woodie1972 said:


> Unless you're being cynical, that's a pretty arrogant statement you make.


Not arrogance, just being realistic. Not everyone has the training to be able to write for an orchestra nor read a SATB staff.


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## Woodie1972 (Sep 21, 2022)

I think you're saying two different things now:

Post #1) People using notation write standard chord progressions
Post #2) doesn't necessarily have much to do with post #1

But, since you make me curious about what you mean exactly, would you be so kind to explain in more detail (= f.e. a bit more text and substantiated arguments) why you've come to your conclusion in post #1?

I use notation, but to say I only write standard chord progressions....

Looking forward to read your explanation.


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## Beyond4A (Sep 21, 2022)

Wensleydale said:


> If I’ve understood correctly, the consensus in this thread seems to be that the choice is between composing with notation software and composing (with piano roll) in a DAW. Doesn’t anyone compromise by using notation within a DAW, such as Logic’s score editor? I used to be comfortable with Sibelius (until Avid’s pricing drove me away) but I don’t really need a notation program and I’d love to do everything in Logic if possible. But I’m still learning Logic and I’ve barely scratched the surface of the score editor, so I’m curious to know why this option isn’t more popular.


I think ultimately, there is NO consensus. And there's nothing wrong with that - not everything needs to fit neatly into one box. The whole point of all this is to create a workflow that works best for YOU.

My DAW of choice is Digital Performer, and while the score editor has been improved (it was never terrible by any means), even with the latest release of DP a few days ago, it still can't compare to what Dorico, Finale, and/or Sibelius can do.

I'm sure there are as many people wishing their DAW crossed over more into the notation realm as there people who wish their notation program of choice crossed more over into the DAW realm. For me, I fall into the later and boy Dorico is making huge strides in that direction.

And the biggest reason (for me) to stay mainly, if not exclusively, in Dorico is NotePerformer. And with NotePerformer 4's imminent arrival, I can't wait to see/hear the future.

So if you're looking for any kind of a consensus, I'd probably say that if you're a composer who leans more towards writing "traditional" classical music and/or scores for various media, you're likely to use a notation program vs. a "hybrid" media composer who might need to dip their toes into various genres and may need a synth bed, or drum loop, for their work - a DAW will likely suit them better. Not to mention DAWs are usually better working with synching video.


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## waveheavy (Sep 21, 2022)

Woodie1972 said:


> I think you're saying two different things now:
> 
> Post #1) People using notation write standard chord progressions
> Post #2) doesn't necessarily have much to do with post #1
> ...


Lot of folks that play into their DAW, or input notes via a mouse, and do NOT read music (SATB), most often means they don't use notation software, and that reveals they likely don't have training in orchestration techniques either. 

It reveals they mostly compose for Pop, Rock, Country, Blues, etc., and THOSE styles don't need SATB, unless they're writing a piece for choir, or a brass ensemble to add to those styles. Thus my mention for use of the Nashville number system for their notation instead, which deals mainly with chord notation on a basic sheet of paper.

For these reasons, DAW's like Studio One (which I like) has tools to make it easy for a songwriter to select ready-made chords that will automatically input them into a track.


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## rgames (Sep 21, 2022)

Aside from the differences in workflow, I write different kinds of music when starting with notation vs. when starting in the DAW.

However, I rarely start with notation these days. You can certainly do notation within most DAWs these days (I think...) but it's pretty clunky for anything but the most basic music, which would be easier to export to a dedicated notation program once the composition is done. So I don't see much value in DAW notation, at least not with the current state of the art.

If you're both composer and producer then starting in the DAW is by far the better way to go, especially if you have deadlines.

If you're writing for live performance or an orchestrator then it's more of a toss-up but I'd still say most people go with the DAW. I think if Beethoven had access to a DAW he probably would have used it to put ideas down. After that I'm not sure - obviously he'd go to notation at some point but I bet he would have finished most of the composition within the DAW.


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## Woodie1972 (Sep 21, 2022)

I tried to use the score editor in Cubase, but this was a struggle, I couldn't get used to it, as it felt opposite to how 'normal' software works. Playing it in live is no option, being a not-so-good keyboard player. Sometimes I feel jealous about people playing and improvising in their DAW of choice, meanwhile riding all kind of controllers, which enhances realism a lot. Unfortunately that's not for me, so I need notation to create my music.

I also tried Studio One, which houses a better score editor (Notion light) and feels more intuitive to me than Cubase. The downside with this score editor, is that it doesn't chase dynamics like Cubase does, so that's a bit dissapointing.

I like working in Dorico a lot, but the one thing it lacks is the ability to mix and master your music. You can insert all kinds of plugins, but the result is not as good as what you get compared to a DAW. And yes, of course this is too much asked for notation software, I'm fully aware of that. But now you need to export your stems to your DAW of choice to create a good sounding mock-up, which is a lot more work than having a well balanced template in your DAW and working from there.


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## ptram (Sep 21, 2022)

Woodie1972 said:


> I like working in Dorico a lot, but the one thing it lacks is the ability to mix and master your music.


I mix in Vienna Ensemble Pro, and it doesn't seem all that limited compared to a DAW. It also includes excellent effects on its own.

I don't know about mastering, but having Ozone and other plug-ins in the stereo out of Dorico is offering me a great set of mastering tools. Shame it can't do surround.

Paolo


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## BlackDorito (Sep 21, 2022)

Here's a related thread from a few years ago.






Who composes in Notation programs and why?


In my several years on Vi-C, I have the impression that most members compose directly into DAWs and most developers therefore gear their products to DAW composers. That makes me an anomaly in that I compose into a notation program. I'm looking to get the perspective of members who have perhaps...




vi-control.net





I'm probably unusual in that I compose entirely in Sibelius which drives all the VI's which are resident in VEPro7. I have not found a library yet that I can't use in this way, whether all on one system, or master-slave. When done, I export each instrument stave as an audio file (using a handy Sibelius plug-in) then pull them all into Cubase or Reaper for final mix/master. Importing all the tracks into either of these DAWs is a simply unitary operation. This workflow has several advantages, but perhaps the main one is that I can think in notation.

If I were starting today, I would use Dorico for this workflow.


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## Jett Hitt (Sep 21, 2022)

For most of my life, I wrote music with a pen and paper. Early on, I became very adept at Finale, and I learned to sketch on paper and then add detail in Finale. Then I became seduced by samples and switched to writing in a DAW for a few years. I wrote the worst music of my life during that time. Eventually, I gave up and went back to pen and paper. The quality of my music returned, but my mock-ups were a disaster. And then came StaffPad.

There are many things I would change about StaffPad, but it is the best of both worlds IMHO.


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## waveheavy (Sep 22, 2022)

Woodie1972 said:


> I tried to use the score editor in Cubase, but this was a struggle, I couldn't get used to it, as it felt opposite to how 'normal' software works. Playing it in live is no option, being a not-so-good keyboard player. Sometimes I feel jealous about people playing and improvising in their DAW of choice, meanwhile riding all kind of controllers, which enhances realism a lot. Unfortunately that's not for me, so I need notation to create my music.
> 
> I also tried Studio One, which houses a better score editor (Notion light) and feels more intuitive to me than Cubase. The downside with this score editor, is that it doesn't chase dynamics like Cubase does, so that's a bit dissapointing.
> 
> I like working in Dorico a lot, but the one thing it lacks is the ability to mix and master your music. You can insert all kinds of plugins, but the result is not as good as what you get compared to a DAW. And yes, of course this is too much asked for notation software, I'm fully aware of that. But now you need to export your stems to your DAW of choice to create a good sounding mock-up, which is a lot more work than having a well balanced template in your DAW and working from there.


I feel the same way, since I'm a guitarist and don't play piano. The orchestra libraries are definitely designed to be used with a keyboard, especially the Performance style patches. Seems a bit unfair for those of us who don't play piano. I can do basic chords on the white keys on piano, and the Church modes in C Major, but that's about it. Looks like I'm going back to StaffPad and send the stems to the DAW.


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## Henu (Sep 22, 2022)

Thanks folks, this is really interesting insight on the topic and it seems that there are a lot of various options to think about.

For composing, I don't think I will ever hop straight to Dorico. I have always been a very intuitive and hyperactive composer when sketching and I find that the first sketch is usually done in a fracture of time compared to what it takes to actual arrangement and finessing. I've also played piano and keyboards for my whole life, so for me playing the ideas down in Cubase is way faster than writing notes either manually or digitally and I don't think that will ever change.

After working a couple of days non-stop with an arrangement that was supposed to be ready and turned out to be utter bollocks at worst when played back by better libraries, it kind of settled what I think I should do next. And unfortunately it's not the first time I feel that my arrangements usually don't work out as well as I thought they would work with those better samples. Especially the strings are always way too bloated and with the rest I tend to spread out stuff too thin or generally overdo everything without keeping it simple enough. So I end up re-orchestrating half of my strings (among others) in the end and it takes a lot of time, and in that I think bringing Dorico in would be a great help.

I could try next some sort of a "in-between" phase and work with my arrangement first in that crap template of mine in Cubase, but instead of hopping to the better sample libraries ready to be disappointed again, I would bring it to Dorico for foolproofing first with _seeing the notation in action and hearing the proper dynamics and articulations with Noteperformer_. After seeing and hearing what people can with that combo, it seemingly sounds like if your orchestration works there, it will work anywhere. It's a bit extra work but I think I want to tackle Dorico a bit slower at first, especially as I always work with deadlines and can't afford to lose too much time.


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## dtoub (Sep 28, 2022)

As a minimalist composer, i use both. I compose (improvise) into Reason 10 but then transcribe it and tweak it in Finale. With the exception of two short electronic works I did in Reason and never transcribed, all my music is ultimately noted using Finale. That enables others to perform my music (which doesn't happen enough IMHO).


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## Chris Schmidt (Sep 28, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> For most of my life, I wrote music with a pen and paper. Early on, I became very adept at Finale, and I learned to sketch on paper and then add detail in Finale. Then I became seduced by samples and switched to writing in a DAW for a few years. I wrote the worst music of my life during that time. Eventually, I gave up and went back to pen and paper. The quality of my music returned, but my mock-ups were a disaster. And then came StaffPad.
> 
> There are many things I would change about StaffPad, but it is the best of both worlds IMHO.


I haven't looked at that in years, but is it still only for Tablet computers?


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## Jett Hitt (Sep 28, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> I haven't looked at that in years, but is it still only for Tablet computers?


It requires a pencil, so if your computer can make use of a pencil, it will work. But yes, mostly it is for tablets.


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## Oldsicord (Oct 24, 2022)

Wensleydale said:


> If I’ve understood correctly, the consensus in this thread seems to be that the choice is between composing with notation software and composing (with piano roll) in a DAW. Doesn’t anyone compromise by using notation within a DAW, such as Logic’s score editor? I used to be comfortable with Sibelius (until Avid’s pricing drove me away) but I don’t really need a notation program and I’d love to do everything in Logic if possible. But I’m still learning Logic and I’ve barely scratched the surface of the score editor, so I’m curious to know why this option isn’t more popular.


Many trained and experienced people use LOGic's score editor for composition... The problem is that this editor requires learning which on certain points is not very well documented by Apple. Using both the piano roll and the score editor in Logic is in any case an excellent practice for me.
Obviously I was interested in Dorico 4 which behaves like a Daw and which is an excellent solution associated with Note performer.


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## Wensleydale (Oct 24, 2022)

Oldsicord said:


> Many trained and experienced people use LOGic's score editor for composition... The problem is that this editor requires learning which on certain points is not very well documented by Apple.


That is certainly true. For anyone who (like me) is struggling to understand the Score Editor, the relevant chapter of Edgar Rothermich’s book _Logic Pro X — the Details _is indispensable.


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## ed buller (Oct 24, 2022)

It's ultimately a very personal choice. I much prefer a Notation Program ( I use Dorico now ) to a DAW for anything I consider "Orchestral" . To Me that means, If I could afford it, an orchestra would be playing it. Dorico has reached a very high level of sophistication with it's playback and editing abilities and Once it has been set up properly with sample Libraries ( a process to be sure ! ) It can sound fantastic.

My Goal was to beat Noteperformer in ease and sound and reach a point where I didn't Need CUBASE to write and print orchestral music and I could just type in the notes, add markings, and press Play !

I think i have achieved this: 

View attachment ET The Flying Theme Dorico Mockup.mp3


Best 

Ed


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## Wensleydale (Oct 24, 2022)

I am very tempted to switch to Dorico, but I have a bit of a dilemma. Since I have a perpetual licence for Sibelius 6, I qualify for a crossgrade to Dorico Pro. In fact, Dorico Elements is probably all I need. But if I bought Elements and later realised that I need some feature available only in Pro, I would never stop kicking myself for not getting the crossgrade in the first place. So I'm paralysed by indecision, like the proverbial donkey that starves to death because it can't decide which pile of hay to eat.


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## Daniel S. (Oct 25, 2022)

Wensleydale said:


> I am very tempted to switch to Dorico, but I have a bit of a dilemma. Since I have a perpetual licence for Sibelius 6, I qualify for a crossgrade to Dorico Pro.


Probably what you should do is wait for the next sale period (a little bird tells me one is coming up quite soon) and then buy the crossgrade at that point, when there's less differential between the regular price of Elements and the crossgrade to Pro.


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## Ivan Duch (Oct 26, 2022)

ed buller said:


> It's ultimately a very personal choice. I much prefer a Notation Program ( I use Dorico now ) to a DAW for anything I consider "Orchestral" . To Me that means, If I could afford it, an orchestra would be playing it. Dorico has reached a very high level of sophistication with it's playback and editing abilities and Once it has been set up properly with sample Libraries ( a process to be sure ! ) It can sound fantastic.
> 
> My Goal was to beat Noteperformer in ease and sound and reach a point where I didn't Need CUBASE to write and print orchestral music and I could just type in the notes, add markings, and press Play !
> 
> ...


Sounds awesome! That template of yours is getting better and better. Do you still use BBCSO in there? I still have to try ditching velocity as you suggested.


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## ed buller (Oct 26, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> Sounds awesome! That template of yours is getting better and better. Do you still use BBCSO in there? I still have to try ditching velocity as you suggested.


Thank you ! BBC is used for some mutes and some additionals. All the the third woodwind players are either Orchestral Tools or BBC. Mostly though it's all VSL Synchron now

best

ed


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## Ivan Duch (Oct 26, 2022)

ed buller said:


> Thank you ! BBC is used for some mutes and some additionals. All the the third woodwind players are either Orchestral Tools or BBC. Mostly though it's all VSL Synchron now
> 
> best
> 
> ed


Thanks Ed! Any major advantages of VSL Synchron as the base for a playback template? I feel like BBCSO falls short of dynamic layers and other departments to be a write-and-forget-about-it kind of library. I get the impression that Dorico playback benefits of libraries that can sound good out of the box expression-wise and in many dynamics. What's your impression?


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## ed buller (Oct 26, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> Thanks Ed! Any major advantages of VSL Synchron as the base for a playback template? I feel like BBCSO falls short of dynamic layers and other departments to be a write-and-forget-about-it kind of library. I get the impression that Dorico playback benefits of libraries that can sound good out of the box expression-wise and in many dynamics. What's your impression?


Just the sound really. The basic mic set up ( don't really need the larger one unless you are using surround ) is my fav sample library at the moment. Whilst the strings aren't quite as sumptuous as spitfire's main Library, they are much more flexible. 

The VSL woods and Brass are wonderful. Most of what you hear in that mockup is VSL. The lack of dynamics is a huge problem for me in sample libraries. I was spoilt at RCP with Hans's 11 Levels for every sample. 

best

e


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## Ivan Duch (Oct 26, 2022)

ed buller said:


> I was spoilt at RCP with Hans's 11 Levels for every sample.


Wow! Didn't know his custom libraries were that detailed. 

Also, and I think this is an on-topic question, I know many of the composers that work at RCP are into notation (unlike Hans), do you foresee more of them switching to a workflow more similar to yours instead of pure DAW?


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## ed buller (Oct 26, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> Wow! Didn't know his custom libraries were that detailed.
> 
> Also, and I think this is an on-topic question, I know many of the composers that work at RCP are into notation (unlike Hans), do you foresee more of them switching to a workflow more similar to yours instead of pure DAW?


I really doubt it. Hans is fine with notation but is faster with piano roll. Super quick in fact. The way RCP is set up is that the composers that are working for Hans have duplicate rigs in their rooms. So when he's wandering the corridors and visiting people to see where they are at, and make changes and suggestions, he'll want a clone of the set up in his Room. But having said that he's fine with people doing what THEY need to do to get stuff done without him. He'll probably just want what he is used to available to him when he suddenly drops in......

Best

e


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## Ivan Duch (Oct 26, 2022)

ed buller said:


> I really doubt it. Hans is fine with notation but is faster with piano roll. Super quick in fact. The way RCP is set up is that the composers that are working for Hans have duplicate rigs in their rooms. So when he's wandering the corridors and visiting people to see where they are at, and make changes and suggestions, he'll want a clone of the set up in his Room. But having said that he's fine with people doing what THEY need to do to get stuff done without him. He'll probably just want what he is used to available to him when he suddenly drops in......
> 
> Best
> 
> e


Thanks a lot for sharing that. I didn't know you worked over there but always follow what you're doing with Dorico with great interest.


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## pefra (Oct 26, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> The struggle is real, and is one I've been having for many, many years.
> 
> The unfortunate reality that I've come to accept is, and what seems to be consensus: There just simply does not exist a good option for "bridging the gap" between Notation and DAW.
> 
> ...


This perfectly summarizes where we're at! I totally agree with you and what you are painting is the picture I had in mind when I started the following thread. Feel free to take part 






Is this 2022? Or still 1996?


Hi there, I learned Cubase in the last century and quickly found myself writing scores with Cubase VST 5. Back then the first VST's arrived, which have since evolved into wonderful libraries witch you can use to create almost perfect mockups of orchestral pieces. 2022 - composing (not...




vi-control.net


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## pefra (Oct 26, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> For most of my life, I wrote music with a pen and paper. Early on, I became very adept at Finale, and I learned to sketch on paper and then add detail in Finale. Then I became seduced by samples and switched to writing in a DAW for a few years. I wrote the worst music of my life during that time. Eventually, I gave up and went back to pen and paper. The quality of my music returned, but my mock-ups were a disaster. And then came StaffPad.
> 
> There are many things I would change about StaffPad, but it is the best of both worlds IMHO.


Fits perfectly into what I wrote here:






Is this 2022? Or still 1996?


Hi there, I learned Cubase in the last century and quickly found myself writing scores with Cubase VST 5. Back then the first VST's arrived, which have since evolved into wonderful libraries witch you can use to create almost perfect mockups of orchestral pieces. 2022 - composing (not...




vi-control.net





cheers


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## Jett Hitt (Oct 27, 2022)

I haven’t really returned to Dorico since the editors were finally put back in place, and I really should. I can’t bring myself to go down the VSL rabbit hole, though, despite the fact that I’m terribly envious of @ed buller ’s setup. I own all of the OT libraries, and I keep hoping that someone will do expression maps for the Berlin Mains. There are maps for the Berlin Berklee thingy, but I’ve not tried them. Has anyone given them a go?

The upcoming Musescore release with the StaffPad playback engine looks pretty exciting, and I’m keen to see how it performs. I’ve heard a few nice demos, but I’m not overly enthused about futzing with a beta. Dorico is going to have a tough row to hoe if Musescore is as compelling as StaffPad. But perhaps it will force @Daniel S. to focus on Dorico’s playback capabilities. I think that readymade expression maps for the major libraries would be a great place to start. Most of us would much rather work with a high caliber program like Dorico than an open source one that is likely to be unreliable. But for my part, I’m going with whatever keeps me out of my DAW.


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## Woodie1972 (Oct 27, 2022)

Why don't you create your own expression maps for your OR libraries? I did this for my VSL libraries, and although it takes quite some time it does pay of. I got some of those pre-designed expression maps as well, but in the end I created my own. Not because the other ones weren't good, but because I have some ideas of my own which I wanted to implement. It's not difficult, but you have to be willing to take the time for it. Once you've created them, you can save them and import them into a new created file, so you're done in a minute and can start composing.


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## Daniel S. (Oct 27, 2022)

There is an increasing number of playback templates available for the major libraries, and we have collected the current status here:









Playback Templates for Dorico – Dorico


Playback templates (containing endpoint setups, expression maps and percussion maps) are available for various sample libraries. Below is a list of the options currently available, including expression maps that you can use to create your own playback templates. This page will be updated as new...




blog.dorico.com


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## ed buller (Nov 6, 2022)

maximuss said:


> What library are you using in Dorico?


Mostly VSL, but also BBC, Spitfire,Berlin, Orchestral Tools, Cinesamples



maximuss said:


> Do you think this can also be achieved using Sibelius Ultimate?


No....basically Impossible . Dorioc is a DAW as well as a score editor. And it's growing in complexity whereas Sibelius is stuck. No comparison. 

Best

ed


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## swinkler (Nov 9, 2022)

ed buller said:


> Thank you ! BBC is used for some mutes and some additionals. All the the third woodwind players are either Orchestral Tools or BBC. Mostly though it's all VSL Synchron now
> 
> best
> 
> ed


Yeah that does sound very good. Just when I think I've resolved to my workflow (Dorico -> Studio One) someone such as yourself presents a solution like this LOL. Ultimately I'd prefer to only work in notation but like most want as realistic a mock-up as possible. 
I have BBC Core and most of the VSL/SE volumes and note performer of course. I also have MIR24 3D and Isotope mastering plugin I could incorporate. Maybe I should invest the time in a better Dorico template? 

Do you do any scoring to film with that template by chance? Just wondering about computer resources now.


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## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2022)

ed buller said:


> Dorioc is a DAW as well as a score editor.


Hi, 

This is one of the details that's making Dorico 4 very attractive for me. I currently do not use a notation program, my DAW is Studio One Pro 6. I was hoping they will release Notion 7, or announce something about it, or that it will be released in the future. But so far that hasn't happened, and I'm losing hope it will happen. 

So, here is Steinberg's Dorico 4 to the rescue. Also from what I gathered about it, is I can use my 3rd party libraries, i.e. VSL Synchron Prime, and any other Orch. Library with Dorico 4. Not sure how easy that is to setup and get good results form when using them within Dorico 4. But I'm guessing it does a very good job. 

I'm actually waiting for Steinberg's sale to start (50%) Off Dorico 4 would make a reasonable price, given the current regular price is freaking high. 

I'm also curious, if many of the Film Composers these days even bother using a Notation Program, I think they go directly to their DAWs. and start composing, but I might be wrong. Does anyone know more about this ? I would be interested in knowing more about it. I think Hans Zimmer uses Cubase to compose, no notation program involved. I would guess many others do the same, they don't bother using Notation programs these days. Some do. But I think they are more of a minority now. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Noeticus (Nov 9, 2022)

MuseScore 4 does look rather promising.


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## Daryl (Nov 10, 2022)

Noeticus said:


> MuseScore 4 does look rather promising.


Not for professionals, though.


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## Ivan Duch (Nov 10, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is one of the details that's making Dorico 4 very attractive for me. I currently do not use a notation program, my DAW is Studio One Pro 6. I was hoping they will release Notion 7, or announce something about it, or that it will be released in the future. But so far that hasn't happened, and I'm losing hope it will happen.
> 
> ...


I think most use just a DAW, including many composers who are proficient with notation. Some of them do a very rough sketch on paper for themes and such, but not always. Hans Zimmer uses Cubase, yes.

Most OSTs nowadays revolve around sound design and the DAW is more exploratory in its nature.

I'm currently using Dorico for the initial mockup, I have it connected to VEPro where I have submixes prepared and all my instruments available. You can get very far in the production using Dorico alone.
All of that said, if you're not dealing with deadlines (I am, but not the crazy TV ones), I think you should focus on whatever makes you enjoy the writing process more.

For me, notation is more pleasurable during the writing process. Not to mention I'm getting way faster at writing complex stuff than in a DAW.

Also, a nice thing I'm noticing is that since I'm using Noteperformer during the writing, I start to give a crap about production, mixing, or whatever while I'm writing, the sound is not influencing my decisions.

Hence, I'm writing without sample limitations, and then when it's mockup time I try to figure out how the hell to accomplish what I wrote, now with samples, that's definitely pushing my limitations, both in the writing and the production department.


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## Noeticus (Nov 10, 2022)

Daryl said:


> Not for professionals, though.


Not yet, but with time it will hopefully be.


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## Daryl (Nov 11, 2022)

Noeticus said:


> Not yet, but with time it will hopefully be.


I will use whatever is best. At the moment there is no way I could use anything other than Finale, Sibelius, or Dorico.


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## Inherently (Nov 21, 2022)

Daryl said:


> Not for professionals, though.





Noeticus said:


> MuseScore 4 does look rather promising.


Haunted by this exchange.

Just downloaded Musescore 4 and ALSO found a dynamic Reaper MIDI integration with Musescore detailed here: 

Not a testimonial, however: it looks like I can substitute Musescore for Reaper's MIDI piano-roll editor and notation editor. This matters for me because I want to create scores for live performance. I am more comfortable working with Reaper and various instrument libraries than I am with notation, though Lord knows, most of my time as a musician has involved printed scores.

To answer the OP - notation software is the ideal for studying classical and applied harmony and creating performance scores for acoustical instruments intended for 'Western' ears hearing traditional scales and modes. The DAW is pretty much its own argument for producing audio that is immediately satisfying to hear.


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## Henu (Nov 27, 2022)

I just wanted to chime in and tell that tackled my first succesful Dorico project this weekend and the results in both workflow and the overall orchestration were really surprising. And the most astonishing part was really that I was able to do much of the work with my modest laptop while sitting on our upstairs sofa, haha!

Instead of spending most of the time to fight with imbalanced samples, articulations and whatnot, I spent it now to _actual orchestration_ in Dorico (which was also enormous amount of fun) , and then, when importing the final midi to Cubase everything locked together almost instantly and the final mix was ready in a couple of hours. And it sounds easily ten times more "proper" and cohesive that I've managed to pull off earlier.

When using my old method, it took me roughly 20+ hours to get the final version done from the pre-orchestrated demo. Using Dorico in between to make the orchestration, I managed to cut down the finalizing into two hours. And I know that I can easily cut the amount of time spent with Dorico in half when I get more familiar with the software.

All in all, I couldn't be happier on implementing Dorico into my workflow even though I'm just taking baby steps for now. I already managed to easily halve the amount of time I need for a finalized song and the results are also a zillion times better even though I've just dipped my toes into that. Can't wait to get my hands dirty with the next project where orchestral stuff is needed!


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## Daniel S. (Nov 27, 2022)

I'm so happy to read this, @Henu!


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## Jett Hitt (Nov 27, 2022)

Inherently said:


> Haunted by this exchange.
> 
> Just downloaded Musescore 4 and ALSO found a dynamic Reaper MIDI integration with Musescore detailed here:
> 
> Not a testimonial, however: it looks like I can substitute Musescore for Reaper's MIDI piano-roll editor and notation editor. This matters for me because I want to create scores for live performance. I am more comfortable working with Reaper and various instrument libraries than I am with notation, though Lord knows, most of my time as a musician has involved printed scores.



A few years ago, I would have been really excited about the prospect of being able to interface with my DAW through a notation program, and though I might still be if that DAW were Logic, it looks cumbersome and clunky. (DAW notation interfaces are simply terrible.) From what I can tell from the video, all it really does is give you a notation interface to enter the MIDI notes. But that's all it really does. It is not quite as elegant, but I can more or less do the same by importing an XML file. In either case, I am still left with all of the CC/keyswitch editing in my DAW. What Dorico teases is way beyond this.


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