# Does this sound like.......?



## kid-surf (Aug 29, 2006)

....Like it has a "slight" Asian feel?

****Disclaimer**** it's only half way done and not mixed completely. I know there are lines that aren't working entirely yet. I'll fix them, same with the mix. But feel free to point out anything that's not working for you.... and I'll decide if I care or not. (said with love) :mrgreen:

The deal is -- I'm spec-ing for something and the directive is "aggressive, action-y, dark electronic/orchestral with a slight Asian twist.". I take the "twist" to mean they don't want it to sound "ethnic" (i.e. authentic).. just "inspired by"....

Is that enough "quotes" for ya... 

Btw --- I should start a thread to ask how many people here spec and who won't do it and why. I'm nobody so I can't seem to get around it. Seems like people aren't so good at connecting dots even when it's obvious to maybe you and I [that we can do the gig and do the music they'r looking for... or am I the only one spec-ing?]. I'll be curious to see what you guys have to say in that thread.

Anyway......

The thing about this spec is it's not shot yet so I'm spec-ing to the thin air, well, the script. So my idea is to start action-y and lead into a more 'beautiful' orchestral _something_. My idea is to lead into a temp/meter change and slow it down for the more orchestral part... then come in with some electronic-y underwater-y type stuff that leads to a few modulation changes that start with the orchestral section. Hows that sound?


But... I had to stop doing this piece due to a gig that's 180 degrees in the opposite direction. So it's on pause for a few weeks. That's why I figured I could get some input before I finish this other thing.


PS.... if anyone is up for the same gig please do something shittier than this. Thanks in advance! 

Anyway there's what I got so far..... thanks to anyone who just read this novel I wrote.  And even more thanks if you give me some input. 

http://home.earthlink.net/~jsmiley1509/data/X.mp3


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## José Herring (Aug 30, 2006)

I think what they may be looking for is Asian Underground which I think is a combination of drum and bass music with Indian music styles or other asian styles.

Your piece kind of hints around at that but I feel you're overdoing the basic simplicity of the style. 

If I where doing the piece I'd start by getting a solid drum and bass groove and then adding the asian elements on top. Dirty it up a little with some processing too.

best,

Jose


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## kid-surf (Aug 30, 2006)

No, they aren't looking for Asian Underground, or an underground sound in general. It's a decent sized budget indie that will play bigger/commercial (around 10 mil I think). So it needs to be a bit overdone, that's what will work for this film IMO. And I believe that is what they're looking for. If it were smaller I'd probably be going for a more underground less over done approach. Also if they'd specified a particular electronic sound. I believe they are looking for elements of electronic but not the "drum and bass" type thing. I have some stuff like that, but I don't think it's right in this case. There's plenty of processing going on here but I don't believe dirtier is what will work in this case either. 

So while I hear what your saying, I don't believe that is what they're looking for. Thanks for the thought though.

Any food for thought is good thought....... yet, ultimately we we gotta go with what the gut says. But hey, I could be totally wrong in the end. I just don't think I am.


And I read what you said in your thread. We're cool man. Thanks for that. I'm not trying to piss anyone off. I'm just blunt sometimes, seems that words can often take on a harder personality when we see them typed out even when they weren't meant that way.


Cheers,


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## Sean Beeson (Aug 30, 2006)

It feels like sinister asian music, but the asian feel is definetly not hammered home into my head, which might be a good thing for this film? On a first listen, it doesn't scream asian, this could be a result of my expectations to hear more traditional far-east instruments.

When synchronized with picture, I am sure this clip will work quite well though.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 30, 2006)

Kid, while I like the piece, I don't find it to have an asian feel at all. It's not enough, IMHO, to have the marimbas playing pentatonic scales in the background. I think you might have to be a bit more obvious. I think... Nice cue though! Oh, and the ending could be a bit more of a 'punch'.


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## Craig Sharmat (Aug 30, 2006)

I think this is a good cue. My take is if it is any more asian it becomes cliche, so I believe the right amount of flavor is used here. My only quesrion is the soft marimba type sound too soft for the track.


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## Pando (Aug 30, 2006)

This sounds slightly middle-eastern, I think. I don't think it has "asian" flavor (like Japanese or Chinese).

Sounds cool, but I think it would sound more interesting if some different instruments are used in the different phrases. It would make it a bit more progressive. Just IMHO...


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## Patrick de Caumette (Aug 30, 2006)

This cue sounds more Middle-Eastern influenced than Asian.
Using both the major and minor third is more typical of that region than it is of usual Asian scales.

The cue's cool but not on target ethnically :wink:

edit: oops, funny, Pando posted right before me and I hadn't seen it. We seem to both agree with the issue though :mrgreen:


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## José Herring (Aug 30, 2006)

kid-surf @ Wed Aug 30 said:


> No, they aren't looking for Asian Underground, or an underground sound in general. It's a decent sized budget indie that will play bigger/commercial (around 10 mil I think). So it needs to be a bit overdone, that's what will work for this film IMO. And I believe that is what they're looking for. If it were smaller I'd probably be going for a more underground less over done approach. Also if they'd specified a particular electronic sound. I believe they are looking for elements of electronic but not the "drum and bass" type thing. I have some stuff like that, but I don't think it's right in this case. There's plenty of processing going on here but I don't believe dirtier is what will work in this case either.
> 
> So while I hear what your saying, I don't believe that is what they're looking for. Thanks for the thought though.
> 
> ...




Yeah. I didn't explain myself enough really.

I think the cue is cool. It misses a few marks. It doesn't sound actiony, or aggressive or Asian. 

Don't take it personally because I'm not intending to make this personal. I just want to see you land this gig!

To me the cue sounds more like a reality TV cue than a film cue. I mentioned drum and bass because the sound to me is more driving. Beat needs to be more in your face and slamming. The processing you're using is cool for effects but it's not giving the overall sound of aggressive. That's why I said dirty it up a bit. Make it more edgy.

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## choc0thrax (Aug 30, 2006)

Maybe it sounds slightly Asian but maybe that's just cause i'm trying to look for it. Maybe just rip off Brian Tyler's Tokyo Drift, I bet they'd like that...although his score doesn't even sound asian. BTW where's the guitar from?


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## kid-surf (Aug 30, 2006)

Thanks for the different perspectives guys, helps!


*Sean -- *Yeah that's what I was aiming to do, not go over the top with a more obvious Asian feel. Something is telling me not to.

*Ned --* Thanks. I'll consider that. It's a fine line for me though. My head is where Craig's is where I feel like any more might be too cliche. The ending of this cue as you heard it is incomplete, it's going into a slower orchestral 'something'. I want to do that to give them fast and slow in the same cue, also to give them more 'orchestral' in the same cue. Otherwise I'd agree it'd need to be a bigger punch at the end.

*Craig --* Thanks. Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. I really don't want to be cliche here, I just want to ever so slightly give them an Asian feel without going over the top. Sort of a gray line I guess that's why I hadda ask you guys.  Is the marimba type sound too soft? Good question. I'm not sure. :D I'll consider that. Part of me likes that it's not a hard sound... I'll play with that, though, and see if I like something else better. I think that is a question I had too.... we seem like where on the same page.


*Pando -- *Yeah could be slightly middle-eastern. Hopefully they won't notice. :D You mention using different instruments. What do you have in mind? 


*Patrick --* Thanks. Yeah, I could be ethnically off a little. We'll see what they say. Hopefully they think it sounds Asian and not middle eastern.  They sometimes can't really tell the diff..... I hope. :D


*Jose* -- No offense taken. I think our musical sensibilities are just different is all. And there's nothing wrong with that. Thanks for sharing your opinion.


*Mike* -- I hear you. Yep it's the same thing here, I'm trying to anticipate what they "actually" mean. Gotta use my gut and my gut is telling me "extremely subtle Asian influence, not over the top". I'm led to believe that because it's not necessarily an Asian-ish film. I think that may be a good idea, to finish this one and do another one or two. I've had that happen too where they asked me to combine two cues. Two cues that were essentially uncombinable (made up word?). So I did something different than both and that's the one they loved... but I sold it hard with the 'talk' first.  You do make a good point.

I hear you on the "slow no" thing too. I'd much rather someone just say to me "This cue is totally wrong for us because it lacks XYZ". After getting fired for the first time I realized I need to ask people to be blunt with me. But I guess that can only be asked of people 'after' you land the gig.. 

And no, I don't mind the risk of taking your advice. You seem pretty level headed.


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## kid-surf (Aug 30, 2006)

choc0thrax @ Wed Aug 30 said:


> Maybe it sounds slightly Asian but maybe that's just cause i'm trying to look for it. Maybe just rip off Brian Tyler's Tokyo Drift, I bet they'd like that...although his score doesn't even sound asian. BTW where's the guitar from?




Choc0 -- Good point, but they'd be "trying to look for it" too. 


Maybe I'll combine Mike's idea with your idea. Finish out this cue and then rip of Tokyo Drift for the next cue.  I haven't heard that score, is it pretty cool?

The guitar is from Ibanez...


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## choc0thrax (Aug 30, 2006)

Nah I don't like Tokyo Drift. I don't care for heavily electronic scores with the exception of scores by NIN members like Clouser and Vrenna.  I was close to buying a theremin once just cause I saw Clouser with one and had to stop myself at the last minute.


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## kid-surf (Aug 30, 2006)

I hear you... I'm also more a fan of 'specific' electronic scores. The Media Ventures type sound is not something I like all that much. But I don't think I'd turn down Tokyo Drift.  But there's often a 'coolness' factor that's missing for me in some of those scores. They play a little flat for me at times.

I like what Clouser has done too (his and my idea of scary are very similar I feel. I get it). I'm curious to hear what Clouser does next. Never heard what Vrenna's done, what are some of his films?

Theremin --- funny.  Well, I was tempted to track down the metal guy he used (Chris something?) to try and get some creepy/dirty bowed metò{q   C’ê{q   C’ë{q   C’ì{q   C’í{q   C’î{q   C’ï{q   C’ð{q   C’ñ{q   C’ò{q   C’ó{q   C’ô{q   C’õ{q   C’ö{q   C’÷{q   C’ø{q   C’ù{q   C’ú{q   C’û{q   C’ü{q   C’ý{q   C’þ{q   C’ÿ{q   C“ {q   C“{q   C“{q   C“{q   C“{q   C“{q   C“{q   C“{q   C“{q   C“	{q   C“
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## rJames (Aug 30, 2006)

I don't know diddly squat about what a director might want, or what is sightly Asian.

But I think there is too much going on in the piece that, although, I'm sure it isn't, sounds random. Like we take that scale and roll around on it in different ways with different sections.

For me, that is what makes it sound middle eastern...randomly rolling around on that scale.

I don't hear a clear theme. I would rather hear more space, a clearer theme, and the drive (that is already there).

I love the general percussive feel. its big and pretty modern sounding.


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## choc0thrax (Aug 30, 2006)

kid-surf @ Wed Aug 30 said:


> I hear you... I'm also more a fan of 'specific' electronic scores. The Media Ventures type sound is not something I like all that much. But I don't think I'd turn down Tokyo Drift.  But there's often a 'coolness' factor that's missing for me in some of those scores. They play a little flat for me at times.
> 
> I like what Clouser has done too (his and my idea of scary are very similar I feel. I get it). I'm curious to hear what Clouser does next. Never heard what Vrenna's done, what are some of his films?
> 
> ...



Vrenna did a score for a videogame called American Mcgees Alice. It's a sort of a dark twisted version of Alice In Wonderland. I also tend to like scores with high emotional content. Everytime I get a score I immediately gravitate to the cues which sound emotional and don't bother listening to something titled "battle" or something.  What turns me on the most is sad majestic music with a strong hmmm religiosity or spirituality. I can't decide on just 5 scores it's too hard.  Recently on another forum there was a thread for people to post 'cues you ar eobsessed with', so i'll just repost that list. 

Bear McCreary- Worthy of Survival (Battlestar Galactica season 2)
Christopher Young- Hellbound/Second Sight Seance (Hellraiser II)
Danny Elfman- Up the Cathedral (Batman)
Danny Elfman- The Grand Finale (Edward Scissorhands)
Dario Marianelli- Evey Reborn (V for Vendetta)
David Arnold- End Credits (ID4)
David Arnold- Kasuf Returns (Stargate)
Elliot Goldenthal- Adagio (Alien 3)
Elliot Goldenthal- Adagio And Transfiguration (Final Fantasy)
Elliot Goldenthal- Libera Me (Interview With The Vampire)
Harry Gregson-Williams- Sirens (Sinbad)
Howard Shore- Forth Earlingas (LOTR: TT)
James Horner- For the Love of a Princess (Braveheart)
James Horner- The Long Ride Home (The Missing)
James Horner- The Ludlows (Legends of the Fall)
James Newton Howard- The Gravel Road (The Village)
John Barry- Some 9 minute suite that I have (Dances With Wolves)
John Debney- the entire score  (Cutthroat Island)
John Debney - Emily's Message Revealed (Dragonfly)
John Williams- Welcome To Jurassic Park (Jurassic Park)
John Williams- Final Duel (Return Of The Jedi)
John Williams- You Are The Pan (Hook)
Klaus Badelt- I don't Belong Here (The Time Machine)
Mark Isham- A Really Good Cloak (Crash)
Thomas Newman- That Next Place (Meet Joe Black)
Thomas Newman- Rock Island, 1931 (Road to Perdition)
Trevor Jones- You Have The Power (Dark City)
Trevor Jones- Portrait Of A Prince (From Hell)

I'm sure i'm missing some though.


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## kid-surf (Aug 31, 2006)

rJames-- 

Thanks for the thought.

In spite of not knowing diddly squat you gave me a good idea.  I'll explain in a sec...

Yeah, i can see how you'd feel that way about it, yet I like the very things about it that you don't like. In fact I was thinking there could maybe be more going on. :D

A clear "theme", for me, in this cue would feel a bit forced (and maybe a bit dated). It's supposed to represent a, sort of, standard-ish modern action-y cue.... yet hopefully with non cliche take on it. For my sensibilities those sorts of cues don't necessarily need to be strong thematically. Different strokes perhaps.

As for the idea.... 'theme'. True, that is a good idea. So I'll be putting that idea together with Mike's idea of not doing just one cue. Your take made me realize that it'd probably be a good idea to attempt an "opening titles" theme as well. And that would be something I would want the theme to be strong on. I read your words and music popped into my head, an opening credits type piece. So thanks in a round about way for leading me to a very good idea. :D

Now I'm thinking 3 cues may be too many though, *Mike*. :D What if they hear 3 and think "3 strikes you're out". Maybe with 2 it's less for them to find something wrong with. Hmmmm. Guess that's the gamble, eh?


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## kid-surf (Aug 31, 2006)

Choc0--

Hmmm. I'd like to hear "American Mcgees Alice". I'm a little out of the gamer loop... do they sell the soundtracks to them? :D if so, what do the list it under? "Game Soundtracks"? Sounds like a score I'd like.


Battle? --- dude. That's a bad word in my book.  Someone ever calls a cue "Battle Choir" and I guarantee you, it's sure as hell not for me. :D

I see some stuff in your list that I like, and some I'm not familiar with. I'll have to check those.

*The music I tend not to be moved by is anything:* Majestic, Battle-y, Dungeons and Dragon-y w/choir stabs, Disney-ish, Sappy.

*Give me:* Dark, Beautiful, Melancholy, Evil, Sad, Poignant, Quirky. Most every score I like is based in some way around those types of emotions.

Thankfully there's something for all of us... cause if I had to listen to or write the first stuff I listed... man, I'd friggn go insane. (Nothing against those who do that stuff very well. I 'get' that it's well done, but that's not enough to make me like it.)


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## Thonex (Aug 31, 2006)

Excellent list Choco
Some other emotional ones that do it for me are 

Luke and Leah theme by JW
Forest Gump theme - Sylvestri
Schildler's List -JW
That theme from Platoon... what's is called??... Adagio for strings?

anyway... great list Choc.

T


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## Mike Greene (Aug 31, 2006)

kid-surf @ Thu Aug 31 said:


> Now I'm thinking 3 cues may be too many though, Mike. :D What if they hear 3 and think "3 strikes you're out". Maybe with 2 it's less for them to find something wrong with. Hmmmm. Guess that's the gamble, eh?


But they're not looking for the composer who has the least things they don't like. They're looking for the guy who has the one thing they DO like.

If you're confident you'll be able to have a real conversation after the first pitch, maybe one tune would be the best strategy. If not, then my fear is always "ONE strike and you're out!" :lol: 

To me, the only downside to doing three tracks is you have to actually DO three tracks! And that's a big downside! Seriously!

But again, I have to emphasize, I'm not exactly taking the town by storm lately. And I change my theories and strategies pretty regularly. So a year from now I may very well be saying, "Only an idiot would send three tracks!" :mrgreen: 

- Mike Greene


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## kid-surf (Sep 1, 2006)

*Thonex ---* How dare you say he doesn't like TJ's music... he's clearly TJ's bitch.... (or so I'm told) :D

*Mike --- * Good points. Oh... yeah... sometimes I DO forget they're looking for something they LIKE. :D Maybe I have that phrase in my head that my wife told me "Studios are looking for reasons NOT to make films". :D

I hear you about the confidence thing. I'm generally confident, but I think in the same way, now, that "ONE strike and you're out". 

True... doing one track is a 'little' easier. :D

No worries, man, I don't think anyone has this industry figured out yet. Reminds me of another line my wife said to me "Don't try to figure out the industry because it doesn't make any sense.... so just do your best work and hope for the best". :D

So if you say "Only an idiot would send three tracks!" a year from now, well, I forgive you in advance.... :mrgreen:

*Choc0 --* thanks man. I'll pick that up. Danny Elfman? Who's that, some new kid? :D But seriously, maybe I would like it. I honestly don't have a single soundtrack of his. Maybe the Simpson theme really tainted my view. Could be that I tend not to see the films he's involved with. I'll pick up some of his work too... Maybe it's for me....? I'll check those Trevor Jones scores too... another composer I'm not very familiar with.


"Light and Fluffy".... perfectly describes a piece of music I wouldn't like. :D


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## pdzl (Sep 1, 2006)

Having listened to a lot of middle eastern and asian music for almost 20 years, I can say this really is neither. I wouldn't even say it's even "inspired by" as you put it. Perhaps you really were trying to make a razor thin connection, and I can respect that if that was your goal. But I personally don't feel there's a noticeable relationship in the overall result.

If you didn't mention your goal or what you were doing in your initial post, I don't think anyone would have made much of that kind of connection.

It sounds like what you'd expect from a tv/film electronic action cue with american colored glasses.

I enjoyed your work in this though. This sounds very trendy and is constructed very well. I really don't have anything to complain about other than its premise. But as music itself, nicely done.

Tell us which samples, synths, tools you used on this one?


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## choc0thrax (Sep 1, 2006)

kid-surf @ Fri Sep 01 said:


> *Thonex ---* How dare you say he doesn't like TJ's music... he's clearly TJ's bitch.... (or so I'm told) :D
> 
> *Mike --- * Good points. Oh... yeah... sometimes I DO forget they're looking for something they LIKE. :D Maybe I have that phrase in my head that my wife told me "Studios are looking for reasons NOT to make films". :D
> 
> ...



I suggest getting Edward Scissorhands and maybe Nightmare Before Christmas suits what you like but yeah it's a score for a kids film but I still love it, and you get to hear Danny sing! There's a beautiful love theme in Jones' 'From Hell' and what's funny is he composed it by accident while he was fiddling with his piano and the director who was over at his place stopped him and said "play that agian!" and he was like "play what again?"


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## kid-surf (Sep 2, 2006)

pdzl @ Fri Sep 01 said:


> Having listened to a lot of middle eastern and asian music for almost 20 years, I can say this really is neither. I wouldn't even say it's even "inspired by" as you put it. Perhaps you really were trying to make a razor thin connection, and I can respect that if that was your goal. But I personally don't feel there's a noticeable relationship in the overall result.
> 
> If you didn't mention your goal or what you were doing in your initial post, I don't think anyone would have made much of that kind of connection.
> 
> ...





pdzl ---

Yeah, could be the "American" thing.  But yes, exactly, I was going for a razor thin connection, because I think that's what they are looking for. I have a feeling that if it sounds legitimately "inspired by" that they will think it sounds too "ethnic". So, no, I wouldn't go to the East and tell people that this was "their" music... if you catch my meaning. :D Far from it...

So yes, I agree with you. 

Other people may want a more legit "inspired by" cue that has a clearly established connection. And I know what that sounds/feels like. Yet, I don't think it's these people. That's why I was sort of ambiguous myself as to if I'd gone far enough w/out going over board. I figured if anyone heard any connection at all, that I was probably in the range, more or less. I think it's a case of people asking for something and not really knowing 'how' to ask for it... so I'm trying to anticipate what they 'actually' are looking for. We'll see if I'm wrong or right.

*"It sounds like what you'd expect from a tv/film electronic action cue with american colored glasses. "*

Could be... I am American. 

Out of curiosity what are some good Non American action cues you'd suggest I check out to hear the different take. I'd like to hear the difference out of curiosity. Or maybe you could explain the difference a little. 

Thanks for the nice words though, glad you liked something about it. Yeah, trendy, that's a good word for it. I'm actually making a conscious effort to bring some of my music to be a lot more (American™) trendy for those people that like trendy music in their films. I sometimes can be too indie and am trying to get over that hump to where I've got "trendy" and "indie / unique / original" etc, so I don't pigeonhole myself. That's the goal anyway...

Which samples and Synths? --- I'd have to look. I sorta just blaze through and don't really take note of what I'm using for what and I sorta lose track of it that way. But I know I used VSL, RMX, Absynth, Sam Brass/etc., Storm Drums, SISS, my guitar. I forget what else is in there. (I did some sound design too)


Thanks for taking the time.


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## kid-surf (Sep 2, 2006)

Choc0- 

I'll pick those Elfman soundtracks up. And I look forward to hearing him sing.  I'll keep an eye out for the 'From Hell' love theme.

Yeah, I've heard of that happening a few times. I've heard JNH say that he had a little section that he glossed over where M. Night said... "Whoa, go back to that... that's the theme right there!" JNH said he didn't even see it.... interesting how someone else sees greatness in something the creator didn't.

So, I guess directors are pretty smart after all..... :D


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