# Help! So confused.....!



## niven (Aug 15, 2017)

Hi, new to the forum. Definitely would appreciate some advise. I'm quite scared of making a very expensive mistake with what I'm about to buy.

I'm returning to teaching. I have a small group of private students that want to study composition with me. However, my knowledge of computer workstations is very poor. I've got an old pc:
Asus Xtreme Phase..motherboard.
24gb...ram
2 Barracuda 1500gb HDs
UAD PCie cards...this is from about 2006! I think..
I was thinking of buying the following v expensive set up:
Asus Prime X299A motherboard
Core i9 7900X 10 core/20 thread 4.3ghz
64gb dDR4 Vengeance ram ...2400Mhz?....3000?if possible....
4x500gb SSDs. Budget wise this pre built is about £3000+

Or should I go for less expensive machines...and fully utilise VEP6?
Would you kindly suggest some alternatives for the above, whether it be another singular top flight set up, or several (two?) medium priced computers in lieu?
And which one would be better to have as a main computer or the server?
And why?
I've read various views on the X299A...not too happy at putting all my eggs in one basket. I can teach relatively well....however, I know that I have absolutely no expertise in judging the correct hardware to use.

My software consists of the complete Berlin Series...Hollywood Gold Strings,Woodwind and Brass only... VSL Special Editions 1&2...and Komplete 9. Cubase 9, Sibelius 7.5 VEP6 
Sorry about the long post.
Hope you can help.
regards
niven.


----------



## Nathanael Iversen (Aug 16, 2017)

I would relax and not feel that you have to be on the bleeding edge of tech to have a working setup. The system you are specifying is indeed capable of anything you would throw at it. I'm sure you would be pleased with it for many years. But you can probably spend a lot less and be equally happy.

There are lots of ways to build a template. Do you know the RAM footprint of your "big template"? Mine is about 58GB on one VEP machine and 17GB on the other, and about 9GB on my DAW (outside of Cubase and OS). I'm sure I could change how I do my template, mess with pre-load buffers, etc. But it gives me a number - an amount of RAM I need across whatever number of computers I choose to use. 

Clearly this would fit in a single large 128GB machine, two 64's, or easily spread across the 64GB, 24GB, and 32 GB systems that are in my studio. The RAM footprint is the same. I have plenty of polyphony as the load is distributed. 

RAM speed doesn't matter for samples. Get enough to hold your stuff.

CPU? a 7700K will be fine. It's 1/3rd the cost, power, and heat.... It sounds like 32GB or even 64GB would be a big upgrade to your setup. You can do this on a 7700k, or splurge a tiny bit and get a six core processor.

If your DAW is running fine and you just need more sample hosting space, add a 7700K VEP machine. If you want to run all in one box, you probably still don't need a 7900X. I wouldn't want the noise that will come with the cooling solution required to get 4.3Ghz out of it. You won't be on a quiet Noctua fan for that kind of power drop. 

An over-specified machine that eats your profit won't be as useful as a fully adequate one that leaves you with breathing room.


----------



## John Judd (Aug 16, 2017)

Nathanael Iversen said:


> RAM speed doesn't matter for samples.




Hi Nathanael,

Can you explain this statement a bit? I am about to build a new rig myself and am curious as to why RAM speed (and timings as well?) doesn't affect samples.

Thanks for any insight!

@ the OP: as mentioned, I am building a new rig but decided NOT to do the bleeding edge of tech. 7700k was my choice as it has a sweet spot of price to performance at the moment.


----------



## niven (Aug 16, 2017)

Hi Nathanael,
many thanks for replying so quickly. I'll take a look at less expensive machines as I think the price of the Cpu does seem pretty steep.
John, I'll definately be checking out the 7700K. I'd also be very interested in the specs of your build and why youve chosen your various parts....I'd love to build my own, but only if I knew for certain that someone with more knowledge than me had ok 'd it! I'm a complete novice....but I learn fast!
regards
niven.


----------



## Publius (Aug 16, 2017)

There are some questions about the 299 as its pretty new. Personally I like to buy a generation behind the leading edge to get a better price/performance and a technology that has been well vetted. I see that you need some guidance on how big/expensive you need to go. Others will have to help you with that as what I do is pretty small stuff.


----------



## niven (Aug 16, 2017)

Thanks Publius, all this advice is certainly helping me to calm done and perhaps take things a little slower than I was going to. I'll wait a little longer, take a step back and consider all the advise I get from here.
niven.


----------



## JohnG (Aug 16, 2017)

Publius said:


> Personally I like to buy a generation behind the leading edge to get a better price/performance and a technology that has been well vetted



I agree with this advice. You sometimes can buy two computers with "last year's" technology for the price of one with the absolute latest.

There are numerous threads here about building computers -- check out what @chimuelo and @EvilDragon say too, along with @rgames all of whom have studied this with some care.

Here are a couple of threads relevant to you:

http://vi-control.net/community/thr...-choice-of-cpu-these-days.64268/#post-4119932

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/thoughts-on-my-upcoming-build.64081/

There are many more.


----------



## niven (Aug 16, 2017)

Am I glad I joined this forum....
many thanks John G.
niven


----------



## John Judd (Aug 16, 2017)

I'm with Publius and JohnG. Build on hardware that has had time settle a bit.

I was tempted by the Asus X299 boards, but just read too many negative reviews. While that might be a disproportionate amount (as reviews go), it scared me off.

All of that said, I will be doing my build within 3 weeks. I will try to return and let you know what kind of progress is happening. Lastly, I don't use a large template so my needs will be a little different.

Btw, there is a fellow named Richard Ames that floats around these forums. He has some amazing videos about how computers process audio. He is also using that latest i9, if i'm not mistaken.

Edit: Richard Ames is rgames as mentioned in a post by JohnG above ^^^^^

Best,

John


----------



## Nathanael Iversen (Aug 16, 2017)

John Judd said:


> Hi Nathanael,
> 
> Can you explain this statement a bit? I am about to build a new rig myself and am curious as to why RAM speed (and timings as well?) doesn't affect samples.
> 
> ...


Any RAM is faster than your SSD's holding samples by a lot. It can't be the bottleneck in your system, as it isn't the slowest link. You can find threads here and on Gearslutz where everyone chimes in with their experience that it doesn't matter. Faster doesn't hurt anything, but I wouldn't pay extra for it.


----------



## John Judd (Aug 16, 2017)

Nathanael Iversen said:


> Any RAM is faster than your SSD's holding samples by a lot. It can't be the bottleneck in your system, as it isn't the slowest link. You can find threads here and on Gearslutz where everyone chimes in with their experience that it doesn't matter. Faster doesn't hurt anything, but I wouldn't pay extra for it.




Thanks for the clarification, Nathanael! Makes total sense. Much appreciated.


----------



## niven (Aug 17, 2017)

Thanks again John, I'll check Richard Ames and see what I can pick up from his videos.
I'll also consider buying some more ram given Nathanael's comment.
Would it be too much to ask what your build will consist of? I know you don't need a large template, but every little bit of knowledge helps. Please keep me informed on how your build goes.
I've never gone near the internals of a computer....but having seen several You Tube "builds" they don't seem too daunting. The crunch points for me would be finding the correct socket points...for the fans etc. There appear to be so many choices....and then the power points!..Hopefully these things are signposted! Otherwise, superficially, everything looks like it's really just plug in and play...However, somehow I think Im being a bit optimistic!
regards
niven.


----------



## GtrString (Aug 17, 2017)

Id suggest the Template in a weekend course from Thinkspace. It can help you get perspective on what you need to set up, seize your options and choose accordingly https://thinkspaceeducation.com/tiaw/


----------



## niven (Aug 17, 2017)

Hi GtrString,
Will have a look at Thinkspace. I have seen several of the free videos and they are v good.
There's a lot going on re templates that I really cant sort out now. I've a contact with someone who's built a a template that needs testing. I'll go that route first.......when I get this "thing" built.
My first step is just deciding what I actually need to do the job....i.e the whole of Berlins Strings on one or two computers...and which is the best approach...how much ram...ssds or m.2 etc, etc and finally but most importantly how much to spend?!
Thanks for replying will definately go with Thinkspace if other routes fail.


----------



## Publius (Aug 17, 2017)

Nathanael Iversen said:


> Any RAM is faster than your SSD's holding samples by a lot. It can't be the bottleneck in your system, as it isn't the slowest link. You can find threads here and on Gearslutz where everyone chimes in with their experience that it doesn't matter. Faster doesn't hurt anything, but I wouldn't pay extra for it.



My understanding has been that the motherboard dictates the fastest ram that will run on it. I always get that memory speed, so it never occurred to me that this could be a matter for analysis and discussion. I guess with overclocking, ram speed may be increased, but I know almost nothing about overclocking and I am pretty sure my xeon has overclocking locked out. Glad to be educated if I am missing something here.


----------



## Nathanael Iversen (Aug 17, 2017)

Publius said:


> My understanding has been that the motherboard dictates the fastest ram that will run on it. I always get that memory speed, so it never occurred to me that this could be a matter for analysis and discussion. I guess with overclocking, ram speed may be increased, but I know almost nothing about overclocking and I am pretty sure my xeon has overclocking locked out. Glad to be educated if I am missing something here.



I do the same thing - buy what the motherboard runs. But I don't go crazy on fast clock speeds. These are only available if over-clocking anyway. The sweet spot these days seems to be DDR4-2400. You can buy faster RAM, and if doing high-overclocks, it makes sense as the higher bus multiple affects the RAM along with the CPU. But I don't think it is something to obsess about. Getting enough to hold the template you want in RAM is the important bit. 

Your Xeon is locked out. They don't overclock. But they can use ECC (or registered) RAM. All the old tower MACs are this way. Quad-channel memory is also common vs dual channel on most Intel enthusiast platforms.

It is good geeky fun to spec out a top shelf, state-of-the-art system. Its just that depending on what you are using it for, you may not actually get a bump in performance, despite it being more expensive.


----------



## John Judd (Aug 18, 2017)

@niven,

I will chime in when I have a little time to copy a parts list in. 

Please keep in mind that there are guys on here that probably know a lot more about the current status of building than I do. I've built four systems, but the last was 2010. i7 930! I've kept it alive for seven years. 

Lastly, we surely have different motivations/needs for certain gear purchase. My build has some elements that are selected specifically because I'm a fanboy of certain brands, and also because of geekery...so this might not fit what you want in your system/budget. 

John


----------



## niven (Aug 18, 2017)

Hi John,
thanks for replying. Anything....anything will help! Our software and motivation for building a system might differ, but nothing can compare to a "real world" review of a setup. Bench tests I just don't believe in. And when it comes to audio/daw systems, loads of figures are hard to transfer into what I think I need for my set up, or even how they will translate into real world performance in Cubase...Sibelius etc. Please let me know if you encounter any "hiccups" while creating your build...this would be _very_ helpful.
regards
niven


----------



## Publius (Aug 18, 2017)

Nathanael Iversen said:


> Your Xeon is locked out. They don't overclock. But they can use ECC (or registered) RAM. All the old tower MACs are this way. Quad-channel memory is also common vs dual channel on most Intel enthusiast platforms.



Yes, I do use ecc memory. What happened was I built the server originally as a virtual machine host for a home computer lab. When I was all done with that project, I decided to convert it to my music pc. As a result it can't be over-clocked and has expensive ecc ram. So, I would not use it as a recommendation for people looking for music pc ideas.

Over at gearslutz there is a Microsoft employee who gives helpful advice from time to time using his expertise from working at MS and using a DAW as a hobby. He likes do to a moderate amount of over-clocking a lot of the time--especially for video rendering if I recall correctly. That got me thinking about OC, which I have never tried, but alas, I don't have the CPU for that.

At this point, my pc does all I ask of it, and that's rather boring as its lots of fun to research and build a new pc.


----------



## John Judd (Aug 28, 2017)

Hey Niven,

Okay it's been a minute, but I have completed the build. I'm still in the process of testing everything, but here is what I ended up with. Please keep in mind that some of these things are surely expenditures that didn't need to happen, and I bought certain things because I'm a fanboy of Be Quiet, Asus, + Intel. I also build a generation behind.

Intel 7700k
Asus Maximus Hero IX
Asus Nividia GeForce GTX 750ti(Strix edition)
Gskill Trident series RAM
Windows 10 Pro 64 bit
Be Quiet. Dark Base Pro 900
Be Quiet: Dark Power Pro
Be Quiet: Dark Rock Pro 3
Be Quiet : Silent Wings 3 (extra fans)
Samsung M.2 drive - 256GB
Several WD hard drives of various sizes
Obviously a keyboard, mouse, monitor, optical drive, and any extra peripherals. 

Just a note, the Be Quiet case (which is pricey) arrived with a broken part. It wasn't a deal breaker and I improvised a solution. Waiting to hear back from support.

My advice from this and previous builds: patience. Don't rush every step because you might have to redo what you have already done. Don't force yourself to build it in a short period, as mistakes happen. And read the MOBO manual cover to cover before you start.

Best,

John


----------



## John Judd (Aug 28, 2017)

And buy a magnetic screwdriver.


----------



## niven (Aug 29, 2017)

Hi John


niven said:


> H


Thanks for the info. Good to know things are going well! I've checked out all of the parts your're using and I'm glad to see so many of the same companies on both our lists. A magnetic screwdriver will be bought forthwith! I'll keep you informed of my build and pray that mine goes as well as yours.
Again many thanks for being so helpful.
Niven.


----------



## John Judd (Aug 29, 2017)

Best of luck!


----------

