# Adler's view on second and first violins



## BopEuph (Jul 12, 2012)

I'm reading Adler's Orchestration book right now, and in the strings chapter, Adler keeps referring to both the first and second violins as if they're different instruments. There's even different preferred ranges for each one. In one of the examples, he talked about the Brahms 3 in the beginning of the third movement, and rescored the melody to each of the different instruments. He had separate examples for the first violins and second violins.

Now, I am a classically trained string player (but play mostly jazz bass these days), and can't seem to wrap my head around the idea that they're two different instruments, complete with strengths and weaknesses. Freelance violinists regularly jump from one section to the other, and I seriously can't hear much of a difference in the audio example, with the possible exception of maybe hearing a difference in panning. But I'm still not sure about that.

So, I guess my question is, why are they treated like different instruments, rather than different voices within the same instrument?


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## Arbee (Jul 12, 2012)

My only thought is based on the (debatable) assumption that 1st violins contain the best players and can therefore be challenged a little more than the 2nds, plus perhaps a little brighter and forthright in their approach.

Digressing slightly, I booked a large string section many years ago for a studio session and I required a solo viola opening to the piece. Given this was a such a well regarded group I didn't think to mention the viola solo intro when I made the booking. To cut a very sad and sorry tale short, one of the junior viola players came up to me and quietly offered to quickly redo the part after the session out of embarassment for the group :oops: . I took her up on it!


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## BopEuph (Jul 12, 2012)

Yeah, I just don't think that idea follows after high school. I would imagine a conductor would want to balance the sections to have equal ability; why would the principal 2nd violinist be paid more, but be inferior to the last table 1st violinists?

And what do you mean? The solo was poorly played because it was too hard for a violist?


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## Arbee (Jul 13, 2012)

These were symphony orchestra players and yes, the solo viola was dreadful (an easy but very exposed part to play, nothing hard). The first viola hadn't been asked to solo for far too many years - nerves totally got the better of him.


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## BopEuph (Jul 13, 2012)

That's a pretty funny story.

I was on tour in China with an orchestra a few years back. The principal violist thought he was hot shit, and would keep telling me I'm wrong musically on this or that.

Then one day, I was talking to the violinist from Nashville, and was asking him about Nashville notation, and how it works. I asked if a I7 chord is major or dominant (and learned that it's actually notated 1-7 [small superscript 7] instead.

Know-it-all violist comes running around the corner, laughing at me, telling me that ANYTHING with a seven in the chord is always dominant, saying "I can't believe you're a jazz musician, and don't know that!" 

I looked at him and said, "why would I listen to a supposedly omniscient VIOLIST...from ALABAMA?!"

He gave me a confused look, and said "I don't understand."

I nodded and said, "yeah, exactly. Please shut up." and I walked off.

I think my thread is becoming a viola joke thread.


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## nikolas (Jul 13, 2012)

It actually applies exactly for the reasons stated above: The 2nd violins are 2nd... End of story!

And this, eventually reflects on them! (ouch on the viola solo Arbee)


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## KEnK (Jul 13, 2012)

BopEuph @ Fri Jul 13 said:


> I was talking to the violinist from Nashville, and was asking him about Nashville notation, and how it works. I asked if a I7 chord is major or dominant (and learned that it's actually notated 1-7 [small superscript 7] instead.


I'm a jazz musician on the West Coast. 
We actually don't use Nashville notation here, but from what I've read about it,
it's similar but not the same.

There's an odd thing within jazz theory.
When we "talk" about a common chord cycle, we'll use roman numeral convention:
I VI II V, Minor II-V's, etc. (As opposed to saying G Em Am D7).

But when we notate a chord chart, It' always w/ the actual chord names.

Guess this is because in jazz tunes, there can be so many temporary key changes 
that it becomes impractical to use the Roman numeral system except for analysis.

As to how we notate 7th chords- 
G7 is dominant, 
Gmaj7 or G∆7 is how we notate the major 7th.
Gm7 or G-7, would mean a G minor seventh chord.

I had to read some charts by a guy from Peru one time.
He would use G7M to notate major 7th chords.
He's a highly sought after arranger in Salsa circles,
so I doubt if that's a personal idiosyncrasy.
It's probably a S.American thing. 

My thoughts on the Adler 2nd violin thing-
I think it's just a conceptual compositional perspective.
It may even be a held-over idea from the 19th century.
I think it's just a functional concept.

k


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## José Herring (Jul 13, 2012)

Arbee @ Fri Jul 13 said:


> These were symphony orchestra players and yes, the solo viola was dreadful (an easy but very exposed part to play, nothing hard). The first viola hadn't been asked to solo for far too many years - nerves totally got the better of him.



How do you get a viola player to play down bow spicc?

Write a whole note and mark solo above it. /\~O


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 13, 2012)

For research, I have all the major orchestration books from 1837 forward. Only Adler has that. It's not in Professional Orchestration since that came out of the scoring stage ennvironment and plenty of scores have V1 + V2 extendiing up to Double High C, and sometimes E above that.

Historicallly? Possibly. Concert hall? Maybe. But not the scoring stage,


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## RiffWraith (Jul 13, 2012)

josejherring @ Fri Jul 13 said:


> How do you get a viola player to play down bow spicc?
> 
> Write a whole note and mark solo above it. /\~O



What do a viola solo and premature ejaculation have in common?

You know it's coming, and there is nothing you can do about it. o/~


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## BopEuph (Jul 13, 2012)

KEnK @ Fri Jul 13 said:


> We actually don't use Nashville notation here, but from what I've read about it,
> it's similar but not the same.
> 
> There's an odd thing within jazz theory.
> ...



Yeah, that's how jazz notation is. I wouldn't want to try to read Nashville notation or figured bass on the spot.

Although, in classical notation, if you said the phrase, "one seven," the seventh would be the diatonic seventh. So a I7 would be a major seventh. Likewise, in jazz, if someone said "two, five, one with the seventh" you would know he meant major seventh. 

Nashville notation is different. That's why I wanted to know. The numbers are actually the standard Greek numbers, rather than Roman. It's a different beast, but in some ways, it's more efficient than jazz chord notation.

One of my teachers was doing an international recording gig once, and he saw a GJ chord. He had to ask what the 'J' meant, and they told him it stands for jazz. So, what's a G jazz chord? Dominant. That's an interesting way to write it.


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## BopEuph (Jul 13, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ Fri Jul 13 said:


> For research, I have all the major orchestration books from 1837 forward. Only Adler has that. It's not in Professional Orchestration since that came out of the scoring stage ennvironment and plenty of scores have V1 + V2 extendiing up to Double High C, and sometimes E above that.
> 
> Historicallly? Possibly. Concert hall? Maybe. But not the scoring stage,



It's just an interesting approach. I can understand orchestration and scoring rules that would say one thing or another, but to say that a second violin doesn't have the same technical or timbral as first violins just seems to go too far.

Makes me feel like I need to specify "first" or "second" if I walk into a luthier's shop and wanted to buy a violin. 

I have the Forsyth book, and was about to buy the Berlioz and Rimsky-Korsakov books, but a mentor of mine told me the three books don't really serve a purpose these days other than show historic approaches.

Professional Orchestration? I googled it, and it seems you wrote it. Cool!

By the way, did you get my PM? I replied, but it didn't show up in my sent folder.


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## Arbee (Jul 13, 2012)

josejherring @ Sat Jul 14 said:


> Arbee @ Fri Jul 13 said:
> 
> 
> > These were symphony orchestra players and yes, the solo viola was dreadful (an easy but very exposed part to play, nothing hard). The first viola hadn't been asked to solo for far too many years - nerves totally got the better of him.
> ...



=o o-[][]-o


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## mathis (Jul 15, 2012)

I read to many false things in the Adler book that I stopped using it or recommending it. Professional Orchestration indeed is used by me, as well as the VSL website, which is quite comprehensive. Forsyth is still valid, I feel.

I think that treating the 2nd violins so differently as you describe it is bullshit...


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 15, 2012)

BopEuph @ Fri Jul 13 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Fri Jul 13 said:
> 
> 
> > For research, I have all the major orchestration books from 1837 forward. Only Adler has that. It's not in Professional Orchestration since that came out of the scoring stage ennvironment and plenty of scores have V1 + V2 extendiing up to Double High C, and sometimes E above that.
> ...



If you really want to see the real Berlioz, go to books.google.com and type in Hector Berlioz. Go in a few pages and you'll find the original English translation done by Mary Cowden Clarke in the 1890s. It's an excellent read. 

You can also find online (but not at books.google) the original Orchestration Volume 1 and 2 by Ebenezer Prout. 

But if I had to pick a book to complement my own series and the Spectrotone Chart it would be Henry Brant's Textures & Timbres: An Orchestrator's Handbook. 
Can't say enough GREAT things about that book.

BTW, I keep reading on this forum about "orchestration rules" and I'm not really sure what people are referring to.

Instrumentation is about learning the mechanics and colorisitic properties by register of each instrument. 

The two biggest rules I know are:

1. transpose correctly;
2. make sure the part is playable by a human being.

After these two, I see lots of guidelines all of which are dependent on the individual instrument and the size ensemble being written for. 

Yes, I responded to your PM.


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 15, 2012)

> There's an odd thing within jazz theory.
> When we "talk" about a common chord cycle, we'll use roman numeral convention:
> I VI II V, Minor II-V's, etc. (As opposed to saying G Em Am D7).
> 
> ...



It's only available used, but the West Coast's copyist's bible was written by Clinton Roemer. 

Even the Roman numeral approach can be confusing. I usually write I, IV, V for major and ii, iii, vi, and viiminb5 for the rest.

I've followed Roemer's guidelines for years and never had a problem with people knowing what I wanted. 

I usually go the extra step and write GMAJ7 or GMIN7 so there's no question. I stopped using the triangle and dash years ago.

But type Clinton Roemer Chord Symbols into a search engine and you'll find an interesting sheet with all the types summarized on a C chord.


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## BopEuph (Jul 16, 2012)

mathis @ Sun Jul 15 said:


> I read to many false things in the Adler book that I stopped using it or recommending it. Professional Orchestration indeed is used by me, as well as the VSL website, which is quite comprehensive. Forsyth is still valid, I feel.
> 
> I think that treating the 2nd violins so differently as you describe it is bullshit...


I called a mentor of mine; he used to conduct the Chicago Civic and still goes up to work with them and the CSO on a regular basis. We talked about it, and he said that Adler simply just worded it wrong; he just meant the musical tendencies of each section. Anyway, it was just a weird way to say it that confused me. 




Peter Alexander @ Mon Jul 16 said:


> If you really want to see the real Berlioz, go to books.google.com and type in Hector Berlioz. Go in a few pages and you'll find the original English translation done by Mary Cowden Clarke in the 1890s. It's an excellent read.
> 
> You can also find online (but not at books.google) the original Orchestration Volume 1 and 2 by Ebenezer Prout.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I'll check all this out.




Peter Alexander @ Mon Jul 16 said:


> BTW, I keep reading on this forum about "orchestration rules" and I'm not really sure what people are referring to.
> 
> Instrumentation is about learning the mechanics and colorisitic properties by register of each instrument.
> 
> ...


Yeah, pretty much on a similar thing as to why it's called music theory and not music law.



Peter Alexander @ Mon Jul 16 said:


> Yes, I responded to your PM.



Yeah, I realize now how the forum messages work. When you send, it's in the outbox, and when it's read, it's in the sent folder. Thanks.




Peter Alexander @ Mon Jul 16 said:


> It's only available used, but the West Coast's copyist's bible was written by Clinton Roemer.
> 
> Even the Roman numeral approach can be confusing. I usually write I, IV, V for major and ii, iii, vi, and viiminb5 for the rest.
> 
> ...



I need to find this book as a copyist.

I go back and forth between the triangle and dash. If I'm freehanding, I'll use those symbols because they're faster, if it's Finale, it depends on if I want to play with the chord tool (I've never saved a library of chord symbols, because most of my work is classical).

And while reading, I usually prefer Ø for min7b5, but it's rarely used when compared to the latter. I find the symbol MUCH faster to read, since it's one character vs. six.


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## bryla (Jul 16, 2012)

As a copyist I would recommend Elaine Goulds Behind Bars which is more up to date.

and a big plus for Henry Brants book!!


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## KEnK (Jul 16, 2012)

BopEuph @ Mon Jul 16 said:


> I usually prefer Ø for min7b5, but it's rarely used when compared to the latter. I find the symbol MUCH faster to read, since it's one character vs. six.


Hi Bob-

That's surprising that you'd say the half diminished symbol is rare.
I see and use it all the time, along w/ the triangle and the dash.
Everyone I work w/ who can read*, never question any of these symbols.
*(this is mostly jazz players, I do occasionally work with illiterate rockers or singers.)

It must be a stylistic or regional difference-
Meaning maybe it's Classical or Nashville players who don't use ø, ∆, or - .

What about "Pit" musicians? (Broadway Shows etc)
I'd imagine a crossover of classical and jazz players- 
so I'd think these symbols would be understood even if the usage is frowned upon.

k


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## BopEuph (Jul 16, 2012)

I mean I see the former MUCH less often than the latter. Most fake books tend to prefer the former, as well, that I've seen.

I'm actually a Florida musician. That's why I was curious about Nashville notation, as I've never seen it.

Over here, most players that tend to get the touring Broadway shows are classical musicians from the local professional orchestras. That's even true of the pops shows; I was turned down on even getting the chance to audition as a bassist for the Orlando Pops because I don't have "impressive enough credentials...but can we get your teacher's number, who lives 200 miles away? He has the credentials we're looking for." A teacher, who, would vouch for me if asked. The former bassist was a classical bassist who happened to have a Gibson electric to play on.

I do much prefer the shorthand methods, but many guys I've worked with just either don't like them or don't use them in their own writing. I'm still surprised Finale uses M vs. m for major vs. minor. That has to be the worst notation idea for jazz.


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 16, 2012)

bryla @ Mon Jul 16 said:


> As a copyist I would recommend Elaine Goulds Behind Bars which is more up to date.
> 
> and a big plus for Henry Brants book!!



Behind Bars isn't too well known over here yet but I've heard great things about it.


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## bryla (Jul 16, 2012)

well then get it. it's a mammoth bible on the art of engraving


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## JJP (Jul 16, 2012)

ø, ∆, ˚, and - are often avoided because in hand-written parts than can be easily misread. A poorly written triangle and a circle can look similar. A poorly written hyphen can look like a slash and vice versa.

In computer notation, every font has its own interpretation of these symbols. That can sometimes cause confusion for a player when reading quickly. In addition, avoiding "high ASCII" characters allows for easier compatibility across platforms and file types.

"M" and "m" for major and minor have always been a bad idea, but lots of people still use them. :roll: Some like to use them to save space, but it's a pretty bad tradeoff in my opinion.


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## JJP (Jul 16, 2012)

As for the original topic - Adler's definition of 1st and 2nd violins... A violin is a violin for orchestration purposes.

The distinction is largely classical and often pedantic. The minute you start dividing violins a3, the whole concept of 1st and 2nd can become blurry in a lot of situations. This is especially true when working with smaller sections (say 12 violins total).

For many sessions in Los Angeles "Violin A & B" or even A, B, & C are used. More often than not, both violins are placed on a single two-staved part titled "Violins" so that the parts can be redistributed among the players at the session if desired. Another reason for this part layout is that the copyists and librarian may not know the seating arrangement or distribution of violins (how many 1sts, how many 2nds) before the session. Breaking up the violin parts would require a specific number of each to be printed. If everything is on one part and you have 22 violins total, you just print 11 parts and don't worry about it.


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## BopEuph (Jul 16, 2012)

Wow, that's incredibly informative! 

Thanks for those tidbits on LA sessions. As a copyist, I'd love to go out there and do that kind of work, but I hear it's not easy to break into right now. I'm damn good at copywork, but moving west is a huge gamble at this point in the game. I still like learning how the business works over there, though.


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 16, 2012)

Being a Finale or Sibelius expert is always a career plus. And if you're really good and have some excellent credits, you can always just fly out for an exploratory and try to meet with the folks at Joanne Kane Music Service. If you have some Disney under your belt, that's a plus. 

Some of the things JJP was talking about you can see on score pads from Judy Green Music and Valle Music. 

If you're a member of the local AFM stopping at the L.A. local could be useful, too. 

A career move is both a business decision and a life decision. Before you make the "big move" a little recon work would be useful. You cannot get the feel of LA from a forum. Sorry. 

L.A. is a very competitive town and things move fast there. 

I was never in the "copyist's line" but those who were, were also MIDI masters and for some, teching brought in extra income when there weren't copying gigs. 

Go out for a week and make an assessment of your strengths and weaknesses and where you stack up against your competitors. The worst that can happen is that you'll grow from the experience. 

You can go to www.latimes.com and check out the apartment rentals. And who knows. It's the internet age. You may find a client whereby you can telecommute from Florida. 

Plan. Plan. Plan. Then execute.


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 16, 2012)

JJP @ Mon Jul 16 said:


> As for the original topic - Adler's definition of 1st and 2nd violins... A violin is a violin for orchestration purposes.
> 
> The distinction is largely classical and often pedantic. The minute you start dividing violins a3, the whole concept of 1st and 2nd can become blurry in a lot of situations. This is especially true when working with smaller sections (say 12 violins total).



Well, in support of a competitor, you have to realize that the Adler book replaced Piston after Piston died (Piston was signed to W. W. Norton as is Adler). So, what you have to realize is that the standard college music department offering comp degrees is not geared to "commercial" work like most of us do. Some are, most aren't. 

His book is primarily designed to support the academic arts community, although it can certainly be used out of class for other purposes, as many of us here know by experience. 

Mr. Adler is a very accurate guy, and his wife is a professional conductor, too. So I'm sure from his perspective in that art of the "music world" he's dead on. 

Writing as a creator, I never tried to duplicate what Mr. Adler did, preferring to stick with a more "working stiffs" approach.


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## KEnK (Jul 16, 2012)

JJP @ Mon Jul 16 said:


> ø, ∆, ˚, and - are often avoided because in hand-written parts than can be easily misread. A poorly written triangle and a circle can look similar. A poorly written hyphen can look like a slash and vice versa.


Hi JJP-

And poorly written 9's, 4s, 5's and 6's can cause confusion.
Then there's this: Bb9. Do I mean a "B" w/ a flat 9 or a "Bb" w/ a 9?
I've seen lots of handwritten scores that are positively hieroglyphic.

Like it or not, these symbols are an accepted standard in Jazz notation.
ø takes up a lot less space than min7b5.
Sometimes that matters.

These symbols work, and I never hear pro jazz players complain about them.

k


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## bryla (Jul 17, 2012)

JJP, if both M and m and all the hieroglyphs are not recommended is there a particular style you could recommend?

As a jazzer I'm with KEnK, but in the end every jazzer has read every kind of symbol and can interpret everything, but I'm curious about session players.


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## BopEuph (Jul 17, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ Mon Jul 16 said:


> Being a Finale or Sibelius expert is always a career plus. And if you're really good and have some excellent credits, you can always just fly out for an exploratory and try to meet with the folks at Joanne Kane Music Service. If you have some Disney under your belt, that's a plus.
> 
> Some of the things JJP was talking about you can see on score pads from Judy Green Music and Valle Music.
> 
> ...



Thanks! One of these days. Even a week's trip to LA with a flight from Orlando can get very expensive. The catch-22 is I need to start getting more successful in Orlando to fund a trip and/or move to L.A.

I haven't done any copying for Disney (one guy has a monopoly on that, and I've been trying for the last two years to do some work for him), but I've done some music prepping for a few guys out here, and some of the stuff has been published in Alfred. What kind of "MIDI masters" do you mean? I've learned the takedown skills pretty quickly, and am hoping that my MIDI skills will grow quite a bit from learning how to do all the stuff I'm learning on this forum.


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## JJP (Jul 17, 2012)

I started a new topic to continue the chord symbol discussion...

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3638753#3638753


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