# What happened to our ears?



## Christof (May 21, 2014)

Some of you maybe know that I am a solid cello player, I also offer remote cello recordings for composers who need some real organic elements for their cues and pieces.

Apart from that I am also a film composer who works with all kind of sampled instruments.

Here is my concern: 

A few weeks ago I recorded my real cello for a client, the feedback was almost shocking:

_"The problem is the strings, which do not sound very realistic. A big part of the problem is the slow attack, which makes each note 'fade in' and is a dead giveaway they are not real strings.
Most of our contributors are now using high-quality sampled strings and we feel yours will not be able to compete.
Keep in mind--even the highest quality of samples, especially with strings, horns and woodwinds, can sound extremely unreal if time is not committed to articulating the nuances of tone and performance that are normally associated with these instruments. We have many contributors and much content that demonstrates a basic knowledge of Orchestral samples but we are now pushing for our contributors to push for a more professional use of sampled instruments."_

Recently I did a recording for another client who asked me if I_ really played my cello live because he could hear the same overtone on a specific note which happens only if the same sample was used twice and that particular note of a sampled instrument was not paid proper attention during sampling and he expects me to play my real cello for final tracks._

I'm not upset about these comments, but I am very concerned.
What's going on here?
After all that sample flood in music, are people shocked to hear live instruments?


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## The Darris (May 21, 2014)

Nothing is wrong with our ears. The problem is people who think they know what to listen for in samples versus live recordings isn't accurate. It is a problem of ignorance in my opinion................unfortunately.


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## G.E. (May 21, 2014)

> "The problem is the strings, which do not sound very realistic. A big part of the problem is the slow attack, which makes each note 'fade in' and is a dead giveaway they are not real strings.
> Most of our contributors are now using high-quality sampled strings and we feel yours will not be able to compete.
> Keep in mind--even the highest quality of samples, especially with strings, horns and woodwinds, can sound extremely unreal if time is not committed to articulating the nuances of tone and performance that are normally associated with these instruments. We have many contributors and much content that demonstrates a basic knowledge of Orchestral samples but we are now pushing for our contributors to push for a more professional use of sampled instruments."



This piqued my curiosity.What musical background does this client have that makes him/her such an "expert" ? I'm also really curious to hear that particular track because I can't understand how someone could say something like that,especially since you're an experienced cello player.


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## Christof (May 21, 2014)

> I'm also really curious to hear that particular track because I can't understand how someone could say something like that,especially since you're an experienced cello player.



You can listen to the track here, it's an arrangement of a christmas song:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43286649/Hark%20cello%20new.mp3


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## The Darris (May 21, 2014)

Christof @ Wed May 21 said:


> > I'm also really curious to hear that particular track because I can't understand how someone could say something like that,especially since you're an experienced cello player.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My response to that guy would have been "You sir....are an idiot."


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## Synesthesia (May 21, 2014)

Lovely arrangement Christof.

The dreaded 'sucking' effect! lol.....

I think a lot of people have an 'idea' of what real instruments sound like, which is not always the reality...


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## mozart999uk (May 21, 2014)

Christof, did you explain to the client that it was live?


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## Goran (May 21, 2014)

This is, unfortunately, not that surprising... I know from my own sampled/real tests experience what sorts of most ridiculous nonsense people can start telling you when you (f.e.) tell them that a real orchestra recording is sample-based, and then ask them to compare that recording with an other (just as real) orchestra recording (but for which you also told them it was real as opposed to the first one...)

I still remember a relatively recent incident with a forum "expert" of this variety claiming with (of course) great self-assurance that the oboe in an example posted by an another forum member was Sample Modeling oboe (he just "immediately recognized" it as such :roll: ) ...however, it was a real recorded oboe...


@Christof

If you have time and patience for it, there actually is a remedy for this: if you have one, send them an another cello recording similar in sound and playing style to that which you did, and then a) tell them it's a sampled recording and b) point out a few "deficiencies" in comparison to the one you did (and tell them they are, of course, based in its sample-based nature and limitations). And then, when they start talking nonsense again (this type almost always does), just tell them that is all fine and well, only unfortunately the recording you sent them was real... :lol: ...this usually shuts them up...

P.S. Just listened to your track - wonderful arrangement and playing...


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## G.E. (May 21, 2014)

Christof @ Wed May 21 said:


> > I'm also really curious to hear that particular track because I can't understand how someone could say something like that,especially since you're an experienced cello player.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That sounds great actually.The only thing worse than an idiot is an idiot who thinks he knows what he's talking about.


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## wesbender (May 21, 2014)

I'm always amazed at how willing some people are to make complete fools of themselves. Surely there must be some doubt in their mind about giving technical instruction to a skilled professional in a field completely outside of their own...but...might as well do it anyway, right?

I can only cringe at the thought of myself getting into a technical discussion with an auto mechanic, explaining to them in condescending detail about how wrong they are. But with music (and most art)...it seems as though everyone is an expert, and they're quite happy to let you know about it.

In any case, Christof, your example sounds great.


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## Christof (May 21, 2014)

What shocks me the most is this:
_Most of our contributors are now using high-quality sampled strings and we feel yours will not be able to compete._

I know that my recording is not perfect, tuning is okay, but sometimes the timing is not equal because I had to record each part one after another without click remembering how I played and phrased the previous part.

But it's the real thing, it can't get more real than that.


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## mk282 (May 21, 2014)

So did you tell the client that it was an actual recorded cello? I would add that he's a condescending idiot, as well. :D


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## Christof (May 21, 2014)

Well, actually I didn't tell them that these are real performed instruments, I never thought about having to tell them, because for me it is so obvious.

It would feel like telling my little son that Harry Potter is just fiction.


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## mk282 (May 21, 2014)

Tell them. That will shut them up. :D


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## Goran (May 21, 2014)

Christof @ Wed May 21 said:


> What shocks me the most is this:
> _Most of our contributors are now using high-quality sampled strings and we feel yours will not be able to compete._.



... I would be really curious to listen to those "high-quality sampled strings"...and would be especially interested in the elaboration of why and in what sense "we feel yours will not be able to compete"...[weather warning: bs storm expected...]


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## Christof (May 21, 2014)

Well, it's ironic that I also recorded many of the VSL solo cello,(and I even own the entire library), maybe I should use this instead of plugging my mic in.


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## Goran (May 21, 2014)

Ok, I guess that would explain at least a significant part of why the VSL Solo Strings turned out as well as they did.

Perhaps you can do a VSL version and send them that one as the real one, and tell them you actually did your own recording with samples 8) ...I would be willing to bet € 100 that they would send you a mail explaining how "now we are talking" and how obviously superior the real (that is, VSL) version is in comparison to the sampled (that is, real) one.


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## Sovereign (May 21, 2014)

Christof @ Wed May 21 said:


> > I'm also really curious to hear that particular track because I can't understand how someone could say something like that,especially since you're an experienced cello player.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fake samples, obviously. 8)


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## Christof (May 21, 2014)

Yes Goran, I could do a VSL version but I rather prefer to reject the gig.


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## bryla (May 21, 2014)

Great playing and arrangement, Christof!

As has been touched upon in this thread, I strongly feel that a lot of people spend their whole music career only listening to samples - from the worst and oldest to the newest and best - and actually having no clue of how an instrument sounds if played by an expert 10 feet away.

What they compare their best samples to is their worst samples and listen for things that are not applicable in real instruments.


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## Goran (May 21, 2014)

Christof @ Wed May 21 said:


> Yes Goran, I could do a VSL version but I rather prefer to reject the gig.



I ment this as a joke (although it would be one with a very educational character


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## SymphonicSamples (May 21, 2014)

Hey Christof , it sounds gorgeous , I wish I could get that out of my solo cello samples . It's an interesting point you make . Sometimes people can be desensitize to real instruments , real orchestral colors , and realistic section balance . It can be disappointing when this occurs and is simple not heard . I've had something similar once , not for a job but a remark from an acquaintance . I recorded a solo violin part in a piece I wrote some time back now . He didn't like the solo violin library I used , gotta love it . I guess my vibrato wasn't identical each time I repeated the same notes


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## Christof (May 21, 2014)

Thanks guys for the nice comments on the piece, actually it wasn't meant to be posted here, but if you like it take it and play it on xmas eve


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## Blakus (May 21, 2014)

Whoever thought that was samples is obviously either a troll, or a complete noob.
Beautiful playing Christof!


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## TGV (May 21, 2014)

Christof @ Wed May 21 said:


> It would feel like telling my little son that Harry Potter is just fiction.


Harry Potter is fiction? :shock: 

But the track is nice, played in the best string quartet style. Perhaps that explains why they think it's not real. When using sample libraries, we tend to overdo the dynamics, to hide the static aspects of the samples, and we possibly add too much vibrato. Your recording is rather precise, and the technical precision is mistaken for a sample because it doesn't move...


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## Hannes_F (May 21, 2014)

Christof @ Wed May 21 said:


> You can listen to the track here, it's an arrangement of a christmas song:
> 
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43286649/Hark%20cello%20new.mp3



Christof, to be fair I can see (or hear) how the clients comes to this idea. I did never get such a comment so far but I have had it happen at some point with my recordings that if the voices are recorded very cleanly tuned and quite uniform in rhythm and dynamics then a sort of 'accordion effect' can happen. And I hear that in parts of your backing strings.

The block-wise writing does not help it and the relatively little amount of vibrato doesn't either. A different way to look at it would be to say that you played _too _perfect 

Probably the client is not experienced with that clean, innocent baroque-like idiom that you served and expected something more 'romantic'.


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## Cygnus64 (May 21, 2014)

Christof, I do the same thing with strings= I do an entire string orchestra by myself, overdubbing violin and viola and using samples for lower strings. I did one recently for a publisher. They wanted it more "smooth and even". I renamed the file and resent it, they said "aaah, much better". :lol: 

I've done it many times. Someone will say they don't like something, and I'll say "OK, I'll run it through my quantum vortex flux capacitor, which was EXPENSIVE" and just send the same file back. Works every time.


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## Christof (May 21, 2014)

> Christof, I do the same thing with strings= I do an entire string orchestra by myself, overdubbing violin and viola and using samples for lower strings. I did one recently for a publisher. They wanted it more "smooth and even". I renamed the file and resent it, they said "aaah, much better". Laughing
> 
> I've done it many times. Someone will say they don't like something, and I'll say "OK, I'll run it through my quantum vortex flux capacitor, which was EXPENSIVE" and just send the same file back. Works every time.



Unbelievable! 

I love that!
Will try it next time!


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## Hannes_F (May 21, 2014)

Cygnus64 @ Wed May 21 said:


> just send the same file back. Works every time.



Never done that. I guess I take clients too serious


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## Leandro Gardini (May 21, 2014)

Christof @ Wed May 21 said:


> > I'm also really curious to hear that particular track because I can't understand how someone could say something like that,especially since you're an experienced cello player.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Beatiful playing, but I guess your client didn't have a clear sound of the arrangement in his mind because this writing is totally choir like.
Next time re-arrange it with some counterlines. They won't agree with re-arrangement until they listen to the final result, than, once they get amazed with your changes you may charge some extra for the re-work :D .


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## Chriss Ons (May 21, 2014)

Well Christof, what constitutes a good string sound obviously depends on context, but it never ceases to amaze me what some of the self proclaimed experts out there have to say on the subject - and 'educate' others (preferrably string players) while they're at it.

What makes me much happier is that in about six hours I'm going to see http://www.30cc.be/programma/klassieke-muziek/anton-n-dvo-k.jsp (this dude:)



> The National Orchestra ends our classical season with a brilliant Dvořák feature. The German top cellist Alban Gerhardt plays a beautiful cello concerto, which by his standards is the best concerto for cello and even for any other instrument. During his three year stay in the States, Dvořák also wrote his symphony 'From the New World', now one of the most beloved among the modern orchestra repertoire: melodious without ending and magnificently orchestrated.



Obviously, I will be hearing a multitude of things which can not be _mocked up_ with even the finest sample libraries. (_Mucked up_, yes - not hard at all).

Nevertheless, the performance probably won't meet the exacting standards of the two clients you mentioned. There's little else you can do than to feel genuinely, deeply sorry for those people - simply because they don't know what they're missing out on. 
Ignorance is bliss, I suppose?


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## Cygnus64 (May 21, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Wed May 21 said:


> Cygnus64 @ Wed May 21 said:
> 
> 
> > just send the same file back. Works every time.
> ...



It's more psychology than music. Some publishers/producers etc. judge their own self-worth by the ability to "say something". In other words, the product doesn't really matter, it's more of an "I'm the boss" mentality, and saying something makes them feel that way. If it's a valid criticism or suggestion, I'm more than happy to do anything I can to please a client, which is why I got the gig in the first place. If it's something like "more smooth", I can pretty much guess that they don't really want anything except to think they are part of "The process". Fine by me, I'll say "OK, thank you" and send it back.


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## LHall (May 21, 2014)

Beautiful arrangement and playing Christof.

Try this: replay the same arrangement, but slide like crazy between every single note like you were a drunken player on an I Am The Walrus session. 

They'll love it.


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## Christof (May 21, 2014)

Haha, no I won't blow up my own esthetical musical perception


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## HeDa (May 21, 2014)

I think this is a problem similar to listening to a voice without autotune. People is so used now to listen to perfect pitch almost robotic voices that when they listen to a real voice without autotune live they think it is bad. Maybe that's why many concerts are now playback. 

Christof, I wouldn't be worry too much about it and think there will be always people that appreciate the sound of a real instrument.. at least I think so


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## LHall (May 21, 2014)

:D 

I was just kidding of course. 

It's just perfect the way you played it.


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## Cygnus64 (May 21, 2014)

I listened to it. It's very lovely, nice job. It's very difficult to play in tune in that high register and you nailed it.

A suggestion: turn down the middle voice by -3 dB and send it back. 8) It's creating the "accordian" effect that Hannes is noticing. It's not a musical problem, more of an acoustical one in that range. When you get to the middle section in octaves it works great, it's just at the beginning where it's a 4th. It's because it's too in tune, you're too good dammit.


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## jcs88 (May 21, 2014)

Could they be any more condescending in their comments?


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## Christof (May 21, 2014)

Well, I would prefer something like: "We are sorry to tell you that we are not very happy with your interpretation of the piece, please try to re-record your performance or do some changes in the arrangement, we are looking forward to listening to another version."


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## Cygnus64 (May 21, 2014)

jcs88 @ Wed May 21 said:


> Could they be any more condescending in their comments?



All the more reason to tell them that it's real. There's a goldmine of comedy, revenge and future stories in here. It's hilarious- the producer went on and on about attacks etc., it would absolutely floor them if they found out it was all real. 

If they had said "we don't like it" then so be it. When they make a point of lecturing about sample qualities and attacks, that's worthy of the humiliation they would feel when they found out that they couldn't tell real cellos from samples.


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## Hannes_F (May 21, 2014)

Hmm ... the client heard something he did not like and tried to find an explanation for it. OK, that explanation was technically wrong and was based on false assumptions. But you are the expert, not he, so your job is to find out what really bothered him and cure that.

Whenever such a situation occurs it is very helpful to remember that successfully processed reclamations have a high customer loyalty potential - much higher than it would be possible with an unknown customer.

This all has not much to say about the real vs. samples discussion imo, much more about the service vs. art conflict.


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## Goran (May 21, 2014)

Christof @ Wed May 21 said:


> Well, I would prefer something like: "We are sorry to tell you that we are not very happy with your interpretation of the piece, please try to re-record your performance or do some changes in the arrangement, we are looking forward to listening to another version."



But that's the problem - your client is obviously an (at least partial) illiterate when it comes to the sound of different playing styles for solo strings (and probably not only when it comes to that). For him to write you what you suggested would presuppose that he is aware of and familiar with the playing and sound style your recording exhibits and therefore won't immediately project his ignorance in the categories of real vs. sampled (which actually is a fairly common occurance) - and that just isn't the case. And in your case it's a strings arrangment of a Christmas song, where this type of sound and playing isn't that unfamiliar - imagine what would happen if he wanted you to record a "romantic" style orchestra piece and you would do it in the vain of Roger Norrington's or John Eliot Gardiner's "period performance style" Berlioz or Brahms - you would hear no end to the "obviously synthy, thin and sampled celli". Or, if you were a woodwind player, "squeaky and thin" oboes or "thin and shrill" flutes and similar nonsense.


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## murrthecat (May 21, 2014)

Christof @ Wed May 21 said:


> What shocks me the most is this:
> _Most of our contributors are now using high-quality sampled strings and we feel yours will not be able to compete._
> 
> I know that my recording is not perfect, tuning is okay, but sometimes the timing is not equal because I had to record each part one after another without click remembering how I played and phrased the previous part.
> ...



I am really shocked about your post, Christof, and I symphatize with you.
If it is a trend in the industry, it is a very bad one. I am speechless and a little bit frigthened...

Alessandro


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## Cygnus64 (May 21, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Wed May 21 said:


> Hmm ... the client heard something he did not like and tried to find an explanation for it. OK, that explanation was technically wrong and was based on false assumptions. But you are the expert, not he, so your job is to find out what really bothered him and cure that.
> 
> .



Based on the client's response, I don't think that is possible. It was too condescending, it went over the line. They weren't interested in a solution, a correction, a different version- they wanted to feel like bigshots and experts. Experts that can't pick out a real cello from a fake one.


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## dgburns (May 21, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Wed May 21 said:


> Christof @ Wed May 21 said:
> 
> 
> > You can listen to the track here, it's an arrangement of a christmas song:
> ...



I think Hannes may be right.It's not that there's anything wrong with your arrangement,but they might be looking for a more romantic version rather than baroque.

What would happen if you re-interpreted the main melody line with more legato and expression?More like a soloist out front with the inner harmonies in the background or moved to other instruments like bassoon or even viola .The backing guys are a bit close chorded,maybe try opening up the voicing,but keep the lowest voice up front,just a thought based on the feedback.

Anyway,remember the great line"music is indefensible?" ,best to alter one's approach to get the desired result,which i believe in this case is a return letter saying
"it's great,we love it",even if there's nothing wrong with it as it is in the first place.

but I must confess i'd love to hear a version with you "going for it" emotion wise in the main melody line,even if it would take up a lot of space in the arrangement.They could sell it as a "wonderful cello take on a xmas classic",right now the focus is on the group ensemble ,it may be they are hoping for one voice to pop through and give it some ego,for lack of a better word.You certainly have the chops to pull it off on the cello,why not try it?
best,
david


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## LHall (May 21, 2014)

These last posts do bring up a very valuable point - professionalism. 

As wrong as the client may be - and as much as we enjoy reveling in their ignorance - there is the fact that it is the client that allows us to make a living doing music and that is not to be taken lightly. I'm not saying we take a "the boss man is always right" attitude. But there may be a more professional way to handle it. 

If a conversation is possible, as Hannes suggested, it might be a good tactic to say to them, "there is something in the recording that didn't sit well with you. I played it live, so it's not the sample factor - let's talk and explore what it is that you would like to hear". 

Nothing more needs to be made of the fact that the client was mistaken. He will know! Moving quickly past that and instead searching for the solution will certainly come back to you in more positive ways.


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## Cygnus64 (May 21, 2014)

LHall @ Wed May 21 said:


> These last posts do bring up a very valuable point - professionalism.
> 
> As wrong as the client may be - and as much as we enjoy reveling in their ignorance - there is the fact that it is the client that allows us to make a living doing music and that is not to be taken lightly. I'm not saying we take a "the boss man is always right" attitude. But there may be a more professional way to handle it.
> 
> .



The most professional thing I can think to do in this case is walk away. You're correct, the "revenge" letter is not the best thing to do, nor would the best thing (for me) be keeping the relationship going. 

I'm guessing, based on a lot of experience, that this is not an isolated incident with this client, and it would happen over and over. Life's too short for that.


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## LHall (May 21, 2014)

It might be - but I've survived a lot of years in the music business by being *very very *careful about burning bridges. 

Having spent a lot of time in the commercial music business, I've had dozens of times where I wanted to walk because of the client's ignorance/rudeness/control issues/etc, but worked through it instead and went on to have many more successful and profitable projects with them. 

But yes - you do have to consider the client's track record as long as your info comes from very reliable sources.


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## Cygnus64 (May 21, 2014)

LHall @ Wed May 21 said:


> It might be - but I've survived a lot of years in the music business by being *very very *careful about burning bridges.
> 
> .



I think we're on the same wavelength, which is why I suggested walking away. The bridge isn't burned. 

I've been in the music biz a long time too, over 30 years. If there was one constant I have noticed, it's this- The smallest dogs have the biggest barks. :wink: It's not only with product, but with timely payment and other good things like that. The ones who complain and write ridiculous letters are invariably the same ones who say "Didn't I pay you already" or "There's a problem with the payment" etc. It's not indigenous to the music biz, it holds true anywhere. Caveat Emptor. Danger, Will Robinson.


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## jcs88 (May 21, 2014)

Cygnus64 @ Wed May 21 said:


> jcs88 @ Wed May 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Could they be any more condescending in their comments?
> ...



Was my point exactly - a reply saying it is indeed a real cello would have garnered an interesting reply!


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## Markus S (May 21, 2014)

I had this with a guitar track once, it was like : please take out the midi-ish guitar, while the guitar was the only thing not-midi in the arrangement. Sorta weird, but you have to ask yourself, why does he *thinks *that it's midi, while it is in fact live and not - wow, what a stupid idiot, can't even recognize a live instrument. I updated my guitar and guitar rig since then to get a more organic sound, worked.

It is obvious that he does not like the swells on each note of the harmonic voices, live or not live - I agree, this could be midi, would sound similar. Also he speaks about the recording quality, that is something that has nothing to do with sampled or not. So there are a few things you can still do to achieve this commission.

I know, it's easier said than done, vent a bit and get back to it - good luck.


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## Christof (May 21, 2014)

Sure, it's all a matter of taste, there are many ways to approach this song and I didn't give up yet!

But the fact that they can't hear the difference between samples and real instruments is still almost unbelievable for me.

As I wrote in my starting post there is also another client who thought I used samples...


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## dryano (May 21, 2014)

I'm sorry to be an asshole, but I didn't like that performance and I can understand Christof's client, thinking that he used bad samples, especially for the accompanying parts. The articulation on the lower cellos is very similar most of the time, because its the same player, so the character of the sound is unnatural similar between the voices. That would never happen if multiple players do those parts. That can make someone think, that samples are being used - the same samples for every voice. Of course to think, the leading melody is played by samples is ridiculous... it really is. Also the timing is a bit too loose at some places. 

The overall performance also came across quite boring to me. Its "Hark the herald angels SING" not "Hark the herald angels have a tea" or "Hark the herald Angels sleep". So the lack of expression and energy could also be brought the idea to the client, that samples are used.

So the technical explanations by the client are highly questionable but his general concerns have to be taken seriously. To avoid the samples/live instrument discussion, why not telling the client beforehand, what is used when and where. That would make communication much easier and you, Christof, wouldn't be shocked anymore, at least not that much.


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## Christof (May 21, 2014)




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## dgburns (May 21, 2014)

Christof @ Wed May 21 said:


> Sure, it's all a matter of taste, there are many ways to approach this song and I didn't give up yet!
> 
> But the fact that they can't hear the difference between samples and real instruments is still almost unbelievable for me.
> 
> As I wrote in my starting post there is also another client who thought I used samples...



You know,the talk about being "pro" and all that....over-rated imo.It simply is what it is.

Christof-many music buyers have no idea what is involved in creating the music.I think your best efforts are to forget the "this is samples" argument,and rather focus on the fact they are using that line to express they are unhappy with the music as it exists,and are using that(in my assumption of course) as a failing descriptive as to what is wrong in their view.
We can all argue the virtue of good vs bad music,but this is all about you and them.I have a few years and many projects under my belt as well in this most difficult industry.I am approaching a major new gig soon with a completely new approach to my music writing-that is to say-I will walk into the situation with the view that I am the music creator,but everyone involved will no doubt have a significant opinion.Many times approval by committee is about vastly differing ideas as to what the music should be.And you're stuck right in the middle of it.Anything can happen,they may want a complete re-write,or only minor changes.It can mean many sleepless nights,or a smooth ride through easily.I actually sometimes prefer complete re-writes as it gives my the chance to hone what I was trying to do in the first place.
I confess to you that I always think my first attempt is the best one,especially when I get a groove or an energy boost when I feel I got an angle to the whole music.It can be very exciting and I feel I am getting somewhere ,creating all these assumptions about point of view,structure and tonal approach.Often times re-viewing my music from a few days off reveals to me just how much of it can be improved,sometimes vastly.It's enough to make you go crazy actually.So I get the whole thing about when someone comes in cold on my work and can tear it to shreds.Usually it doesn't take much effort to do that.
These days,I prefer the building consensus approach.Recently I was in a meeting with major network execs about a new theme song for a new show.I was nervous about just what might come out.First thing out of the major head was that he hated the opening little motif thing.Silence in the room,and my heart jumped out of my chest.I kept smiling.Then the creator of the show said he LOVED that thing/sound.Silence-then the other creative said,I like it too.Finally the EP said Yeah I like that line.So the head exec says-run it by me again guys.Play the cue.Then he says-ok,not sure,let's move on.So we talk about other things in the song they don't like.Finally at the end,after discovering it was all wrong.We come back to the beginning.The exec shouts out at the end,ok I like that little thing off the top.After my say what head flip,I realized this guy was actually ok with being wrong.He must be a great exec.
Hang up the internet,and turn to the director-so what do you want me to do I say-"nothing it's perfect" he says.
I didn't have to change a note.Still shaking from the emotional roller coaster,but all things considered,I'd change it till the cows come home if they wanted too.
A funny thought came over me once they approved the thing.What if we are all wrong?This thing goes to air and I'm the point man for whatever happens.Oh-oh,I just soiled my pants again.So you see-I actually don't need or want to be right any more.I'd rather have the whole team behind my work,so I have a sense that the ship as a whole will float,not just some sorry ass little 30 sec cue off the top of the show.

I hope to inspire you to enjoy the ride and not worry so much about being right.

It's no fun being right,it's much better to be happy.


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## KEnK (May 21, 2014)

Christof-

I think you're version is beautiful-
I can practically hear the words!

It's one thing if this piece is not suitable to the directors needs-
but this guy is clearly an Ass.

I've had more than my share of them.

btw- I hope you don't mind, but I quoted this guy's nonsense in another thread.
Seemed very apropos to that topic-

_How has the development of sample libraries changed the sound of the orchestra in film?_
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3793677

Pompous Fools like this guy make me not want to do this anymore-
Which makes more room for those of you that do. :wink: 

k


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## Christof (May 21, 2014)

This is amazing , you can almost hear the words, some think it sounds too baroque, some love it and others don't like it.
That's the great thing about music, it can mean anything depending on the person who listens to it.


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## Stephen Rees (May 21, 2014)

Cygnus64 @ Wed May 21 said:


> I've been in the music biz a long time too, over 30 years. If there was one constant I have noticed, it's this- The smallest dogs have the biggest barks. :wink:



I have experienced this too. Taking the analogy the other way, I have had the good fortune to work with/for a few 'big dogs' and they have been all been courteous, thoughtful, constructive, polite, knowledgable, friendly, encouraging etc. etc.

I also agree on the 'life's too short' angle.


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## Izolus (May 21, 2014)

I think for that it's mostly a case of ignorance.

I know when I started out I thought some string samples didn't sound realistic and then I realised that my knowledge of the sound of the instrument was at flaw, not the samples. Lovely recording btw


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## Cygnus64 (May 21, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Wed May 21 said:


> Cygnus64 @ Wed May 21 said:
> 
> 
> > I've been in the music biz a long time too, over 30 years. If there was one constant I have noticed, it's this- The smallest dogs have the biggest barks. :wink:
> ...



Same here. Overall, most of my experiences have been positive and enjoyable. I guess that's why a red flag popped up when I read the original post, the few bad experiences usually had that tone.


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## chillbot (May 21, 2014)

Cygnus64 @ Wed May 21 said:


> Hannes_F @ Wed May 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Cygnus64 @ Wed May 21 said:
> ...



Along these lines.... from the manual of my Dangerous Music Monitor-ST:

*The PPI function*
The PPI button does toggle during normal use and is the ubiquitous Producer
Pacification Indicator. It is used for situations where the producer wants just one more
change to a mix that you think is perfect. You look him in the eye and say, “Do you like
it like this… or This (while pressing the PPI button)”. The annoying producer will usually
pick one of the conditions (blue light on for This mix) and you can print the mix as you
had it and move on…


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## maestro2be (May 21, 2014)

I think it's a lot easier to take it so personally because you in fact did play it live. I think when someone tells us they don't like the way something is, and we know it's 100% samples we don't feel so "attacked". I can understand why you would feel more of an emotional impact, knowing that this was actually made by you personally.

Do you have a fear that if you tell them this was real that they might say something negative again, but this time directly attack your ability (which you obviously will take much more severely than a sample library attack)?

I remember one time when I was playing a piano concert, that just happen to arise at the moment. No planning at all. I just sat down to the Steinway and gave people a concert. I remember in one particular piece, I decided to phrase something totally different, than for lack of better words we will say "the way the composer wrote it", which I try to avoid at all costs.

At any rate, a gentleman decided to approach me after a few more songs went by and I had decided to stand up. He cordially greeted me at the edge of the piano to show his incredible wisdom and knowledge. He says to me "I heard that mistake you made in such and such song and time".

I not so kindly told him, since when do you tell me what is and isn't a mistake? Do you have any idea what I was thinking during that performance? For your information, I intentionally did that series of notes the way I did, so no, it wasn't a mistake. I make all the decisions while I am playing and unless it's a blatant finger smacking other keys or falling of the bench, I am in control of the performance and what happens next.

He silently walked away and I was stirring with aggression and anger inside because I felt directly attacked for being myself. He specifically attacked me, whether he knew it or not and I didn't like it.

I remember another time I was hired to play the piano and it had moments when people were conversing or eating etc., and I would keep the music down. Then other times I would have encore sessions to get them moving. It was during these times I would play let's say "more notes"....

Well, of course without warning and as it always happens, someone will choose to be the big mouth. So here came Mr. Big Mouth with his champagne up to the piano and says to me, "Hey, how the hell is anyone suppose to sing when you play all those dam notes".

All I could say to not choke the life out of him  was, I am not here to play for the choir or solo singing artist. I am here to entertain. At times with "more notes" and other times to only create a comfortable ambience that defies silence for the more nervous types.

The problem is, these type of people are everywhere, and come out when you least expect it. It can also come from people you trust and are close to at times. The difference between someone saying my orchestration sounds like a midi mockup is that it is. When they start attacking my personal performance, it attacks a whole different person.

Unless you are prepared for possibly hearing, that you basically suck at the Cello, be careful about telling them that it was you who literally played those parts with your own soul. Unless you can take it either way. 

And to that I say let them know and try to work it out or as one of my oldest friends who is deceased now once said on the piano, during a live performance to a man who stood up in front of everyone and yelled "Hey!! That's now how the composer wrote it"! To this he had 2 special words for everyone, "[email protected]#@ [email protected]#"... and then continued to finish the song.

Maestro2be


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## Stephen Rees (May 21, 2014)

The career strategy of never burning your bridges is overrated.


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## StevenOBrien (May 21, 2014)

Christof @ Wed May 21 said:


> Some of you maybe know that I am a solid cello player, I also offer remote cello recordings for composers who need some real organic elements for their cues and pieces.
> 
> Apart from that I am also a film composer who works with all kind of sampled instruments.
> 
> ...


That's disappointing, because it sounds great. Outstanding playing, and beautifully arranged. The only thing that stands out to me is that the microphone sounds like it's a little too close to the instrument (for my tastes, at least), which might make it sound a little unusual compared to recordings that are done in larger studios. Your client is clearly deaf though if they think this is sampled...

I've bookmarked your page for future reference, I'll certainly consider hiring you in the future if an opportunity presents itself! You're an outstanding musician. Keep up the good work!


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## Christof (May 21, 2014)

Yes, I use a very direct microphone position because my recording room is so high, I have to find a solution to avoid this....

Anyway, after all, I didn't yet give up this (little) job, I will keep you up to date how this song developed and if the client is happy or not.
This is really just a tiny part of what I do, but I thought the feedback of the client was so unexpected, so I had to share this here...


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## Shubus (May 21, 2014)

Definitely a case of client ignorance. The subtle crescendo on each bow change gets interpreted by the client as crappy samples while the "better" samples have an immediate attack without the subtle crescendos, and this leaves the client with unmusical expectations. Ignorance is definitely NOT bliss.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 21, 2014)

Just a comment on the recording itself:

1. There isn't much actual legato going on. The "swelling" you are constantly doing may make the listener think that 

BUT

I think what's really throwing it off is you are panning pretty hard on the second and third parts. It almost creates an odd delay affect.

Maybe less panning so the parts are more centered.

Also I'd turn up the primary part so it sticks out a bit more. The "realism" is coming mostly from that part.


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## Cygnus64 (May 21, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Wed May 21 said:


> The career strategy of never burning your bridges is overrated.



It's all a matter of knowing which ones are the most flammable, which ones are fireproof, and which ones are bridges to nowhere.


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## did (May 21, 2014)

Christof @ Wed May 21 said:


> I thought the feedback of the client was so unexpected, so I had to share this here...


As your client seems no to be totally unenlightened on samples work, perhaps does he visit regularly this forum ? 
Anyway, inspiring piece, with a nice contrapuntal writing (and I think that's for you the most important thing to retain...)


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## snattack (May 21, 2014)

Cygnus64 @ Wed May 21 said:


> Hannes_F @ Wed May 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Cygnus64 @ Wed May 21 said:
> ...



It's easier than that: they are paid to complain. They are expected to have oppinions, and if they don't have it, they make up stuff that doesn't exist because they feel obligates towards the client. Experienced producers know what battles to fight and when to let go, this is most usually the case with lower-ranked/inexperienced producers.


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## wesbender (May 21, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Wed May 21 said:


> The career strategy of never burning your bridges is overrated.



I agree. Some bridges are so poorly constructed that not burning them to the ground is a serious (mental) safety hazard.


Just make sure you get paid first.


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## kitekrazy (May 21, 2014)

That's just part of any service industry. 

After reading some of these comments from clients, someone should write The New WTF? Dictionary of Music.


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## Casiquire (May 21, 2014)

Thanks for relating that story, Christof, though I'm sad to hear it's a true story!


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## Enyak (May 22, 2014)

Hannes has provided some excellent advice in this thread IMO and I am a bit surprised it's been mostly ignored.

This is a communication problem on both sides and has little to do with expectations based on sample-produced work vs reality in my opinion. The client perhaps expected more strings movement and expression (dynamics, vibrato) and verbalized this by attributing the lack thereof to the usage of static samples.


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## LunyAlex (May 22, 2014)

Dropping in to add to the praise. 
That Christmas piece is fantastic. Very delicate and soothing.


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## Saxer (May 22, 2014)

it works great if you send a few pictures or a little video with 'real instrument' recordings where they can see you playing.

most people can't hear but they can see. 

we all know: what looks good tastes better, smells better, sounds better and feels better.


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## doubleattack (May 22, 2014)

Enyak @ Thu 22 May said:


> Hannes has provided some excellent advice in this thread IMO and I am a bit surprised it's been mostly ignored.
> ...



I wondering too. :?:


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## Conor (May 22, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Wed May 21 said:


> Hmm ... the client heard something he did not like and tried to find an explanation for it. OK, that explanation was technically wrong and was based on false assumptions. But you are the expert, not he, so your job is to find out what really bothered him and cure that.
> 
> Whenever such a situation occurs it is very helpful to remember that successfully processed reclamations have a high customer loyalty potential - much higher than it would be possible with an unknown customer.
> 
> This all has not much to say about the real vs. samples discussion imo, much more about the service vs. art conflict.



Seems about right to me.

Although, I personally wouldn't respond without also correcting his mistake. "Actually, this is a layered recording of a live cello performance. I think the problem you're hearing is really XYZ, which I've tried to fix..."


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## Cygnus64 (May 22, 2014)

Enyak @ Thu May 22 said:


> Hannes has provided some excellent advice in this thread IMO and I am a bit surprised it's been mostly ignored.
> 
> .



Just a reminder= boys and girls blowing steam on an internet forum doesn't equal real life.  How Christof or anyone handles things in reality is far different . There are many variables involved. I like to seek wisdom from one of our greatest living philosophers, Mister Kenny Rogers:

_"You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em..."_


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## snowleopard (May 22, 2014)

If it's being ignored, I think that's fed from the sympathy people have. I can imagine the frustration from getting feedback by someone not liking an arrangement, and thus _assuming_ it was cheap samples, and coming off condescending about it. 

That's what has people upset, and thus the tone of the conversation. What Hannes says may very well be true, but I take it as a seperate aspect of the conversation.


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## sinkd (May 22, 2014)

This is really fascinating.

We have come to the point where it is possible to assert that the 'realism' of samples has become a desirable aesthetic objective in its own right. For developers, the goal has certainly always been to try to get 'sampled realism' as close to 'real realism' as possible.

But it seems like maybe in some cases the two aesthetic ideals could be distinct... branches of a tree rather than the artificial chasing the natural.

As someone already said, what was it exactly that the client didn't like about the real performance? They obviously missed the mark in their critique, but they are trying to set a very high standard for 'sampled realism' in their product, so they are not listening for the real thing...

DS


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## Hannes_F (May 23, 2014)

sinkd @ Fri May 23 said:


> We have come to the point where it is possible to assert that the 'realism' of samples has become a desirable aesthetic objective in its own right. ... But it seems like maybe in some cases the two aesthetic ideals could be distinct... branches of a tree rather than the artificial chasing the natural.



Damon, speaking from the perspective of somebody that has been working since years in the field of live recordings for (predominantly) sample based composers: This has been the case since long time and it is something to be always considered in this business.

A superficial understanding is that using live recordings would per se be 'the next step' after using samples. However 'live' is not at al equal to 'live' and whether a recording will be perceived as a 'step up' to be integrated into the production depends on a lot of factors:

- the sonic expectations of the composer/producer (and whether they can be met of course)
- the sample libraries owned and used by the composer
- the mixing experience and habits of the composer/producer
- the experience with live recordings by the composer/producer
- the mood of the scene in general of course and how the recording fits to it
- the production chain in general (is the composer mixing himself, is he mastering himself and such questions)

To explore the first item: The sonic expectations of many composers today are formed by four factors in varying degree:

- Sample libraries (that often are, taken note per note, world class recordings of world class orchestras in world class rooms by world class engineers)
- Certain film music recordings that have served the composer as sonic models for adjusting their sample mixing process
- Classical orchestra recordings known by the composer (to a lesser degree)
- Composer's experience with live recordings or live concerts (to a lesser degree)

A typical scenario coming from this is that a client basically wants the end product (samples mixed with live recordings or live recordings alone) to sound like 'my samples but without the artefacts'. He does never say this words but this is his expectation - as a minimum (musicality and expression come on top of that).

Another typical scenario would be that the client wants the end product _not _to sound like his samples because he is unhappy with them but wants it to sound like his favorite film music records.

What they usually don't want is: the end product to sound like 'the live players' favorite classical recordings'. This is a pitfall, especially if the musical background between the parties is different.

I could give examples how the change of sample libraries throughout the years has affected the listening habits and expectations of of composers and producers for live recordings but this post is already quite long. 

I had to learn all this the hard way in the first years and it makes a huge difference if you are able to anticipate the hopes of the client and meet (or surpass) them. If somebody thinks 'live is equal to 'live' and 'live' will always be perceived as 'better' than samples then this is a huge misconception right from the start. It needs damned hard work combined with lots of empathy and knowledge of the composer's or producer's situation in order to be able to please the client of today.

I admit I have been running in quite some situations where my own artistic conception stepped into the way of all this. As an artist you want to deliver a genuine interpretation of the work. But that might not be what the client wants. Finding that balance is very important.


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## Christof (May 23, 2014)

Very true Hannes, good point!
Actually this piece is a live studio recording, live only in terms of in realtime performed acoustic cellos.
This recording has been of course similar to the process of creating a piece in a sequencer because it is an overdub production.
Anyway I think a music editor disqualifies himself if he can't hear the difference between this recording and a sampled one.

I learned to live with rejections, I did 2 big feature movie scores in the past 5 months, many cues came back to me waiting to be recomposed.

Anyway, this is just a small side project, but the impact of the explanation why it is rejected is amazing.


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## Hannes_F (May 23, 2014)

Christof @ Fri May 23 said:


> but the impact of the explanation why it is rejected is amazing.



Christof,
don't let it get near to you. Of course such a comment is extremely humilating and punishing especially since you are both an expert in sample programming and live playing, and both on an extremely high professional level (I use 'live' in this thread as short form for 'studio recording').

Sometimes our soul wants to extract the bitter nectar of discouragement from a situation. Don't let it happen - this would be the way into a trauma. The best advice I can give is to analyze such situations and use them to your advantage. If you find out what the problem really is and solve it then you will have an edge, and more power to you in future. All the best!


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## Christof (May 23, 2014)

Actually it doesn't make me upset or causes any personal harm, it just simply is avery odd situation, believe me, I rather laugh than cry...
As I said before I can live with critique and rejection, when dryano writes in this topic that he doesn't like the performance and he understands the client then I can accept that as his opinion as well.


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## Kejero (May 23, 2014)

It's not very surprising though. This client says they're used to listening to samples. Once you're used to certain sounds, everything else will sound "wrong".

When I'm composing it frequently happens that I feel that one note or bar doesn't sound right yet, but I decide to make a note of it and "fix" it later. Often, I'll find that after I've relistened to it a few too many times, it suddenly starts to sound "right", and the only reason is that I've gotten used to it. I hate it when that happens


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## Guy Rowland (May 23, 2014)

CobraTrumpet @ Thu May 22 said:


> Although, I personally wouldn't respond without also correcting his mistake. "Actually, this is a layered recording of a live cello performance. I think the problem you're hearing is really XYZ, which I've tried to fix..."



For my $0.02, this. I suspect it's the slightly mechanical sounding timing and phrasing in the non-cellos that is setting off their radar. And perhaps it's not entirely fair to reject their opinion as misinformed (though it sure was condescending), in that only one instrument out of 4 (5?) there is real. I sometimes think the 1-real-instrument-to-make-it-all-sound-real ethos is a slight over-simplification, though its a very useful, tried and tested trick.

What's there certainly doesn't sound bad by any means, but given they're the client an all, IMO an hour or so working on a little more fluidity and imperfections on the non-cello strings and perhaps a few subtle tempo bumps would probably keep them happy.


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## Hannes_F (May 23, 2014)

Guy, these are all real cello stems. No samples used in that recording. However in those other stems the cello is played in a way that most are not used to and therefore mistake them as samples. Same happened to the producer, and in a way it is understandable (in the sense of: it _can _happen). This is what I am trying to say since my first post.


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## Synesthesia (May 23, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Fri May 23 said:


> CobraTrumpet @ Thu May 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Although, I personally wouldn't respond without also correcting his mistake. "Actually, this is a layered recording of a live cello performance. I think the problem you're hearing is really XYZ, which I've tried to fix..."
> ...



Guy -- are you talking about Christof's track..?


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## Synesthesia (May 23, 2014)

Back on topic, my take would be that you should be honest but not rude, as tempting as it may be..

Only thing worse form the clients perspective would be if you carried on allowing them to for example discuss the 'Bassoon' thats actually a Horn or something, and then they find out. And realised that you thought them so dim that it wasn't worth correcting them..! :D


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## Christof (May 23, 2014)

Guy, no "non-cellos" are used.
I don't own a non-cello.

No samples were harmed during production of this chritmas song.


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## Guy Rowland (May 23, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Fri May 23 said:


> Guy, these are all real cello stems. No samples used in that recording. However in those other stems the cello is played in a way that most are not used to and therefore mistake them as samples. Same happened to the producer, and in a way it is understandable (in the sense of: it _can _happen). This is what I am trying to say since my first post.



Ah, understood - a quartet / quintet all played on the cello? Yes it did sounded slightly odd to me, see even I mistook the violins etc for samples played that way. That said, the main thing really was that very regular timing and phrasing - I did wonder if it were all played on the normal live instruments that they wouldn't like it - it was mostly the rhythm and flow that sounded slightly mechanical to me. Actually perhaps a function of having to play each part on the same instrument rather than a homogeneous group? (probably answers your post, Synesthesia)


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## Christof (May 23, 2014)

Yes, it's a cello quartet made by overdub recordings using the same player and the same instrument, it would have sounded more realistic if 4 different cellos were used.

But even if you want to program it with 4 sampled solo cellos you would need 4 different solo cello libraries.


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## Guy Rowland (May 23, 2014)

Christof @ Fri May 23 said:


> Yes, it's a cello quartet made by overdub recordings using the same player and the same instrument, it would have sounded more realistic if 4 different cellos were used.
> 
> But even if you want to program it with 4 sampled solo cellos you would need 4 different solo cello libraries.



Out of interest, did you have to play to a click, Christof?


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## Christof (May 23, 2014)

No, I mentioned that earlier in this discussion, I started playing the melody , then I added the bass part and then the middle voices.
I am trained to play to a click, but here I wanted to avoid a too static tempo, as you can hear it doesn't fit perfectly together regarding timing.

But it's true it is more a choir arrangement than an instrumental one, I have done many of these multitrack recordings because it is so much fun for me, if you want I can share another piece by Vivaldi wich works better I guess:

This is from a cello sonata by Vivaldi, adapted for 5 cellos:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43286649/Vivaldi_Largo.mp3


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## Guy Rowland (May 23, 2014)

Christof @ Fri May 23 said:


> No, I mentioned that earlier in this discussion, I started playing the melody , then I added the bass part and then the middle voices.
> I am trained to play to a click, but here I wanted to avoid a too static tempo, as you can hear it doesn't fit perfectly together regarding timing.
> 
> But it's true it is more a choir arrangement than an instrumental one, I have done many of these multitrack recordings because it is so much fun for me, if you want I can share another piece by Vivaldi wich works better I guess:
> ...



That's gorgeous!

Must be really hard to play like that against yourself timing-wise, congrats - even harder with Vivalidi than Hark The Herald I'd have thought. I guess a significant difference between Vivaldi and Hark The Herald is that its more in the traditional cello register.

I've listened again to Hark - without making myself look like an absolute total numpty, it all makes so much more sense knowing its all cellos. It's really not the same sound or feel as a traditional quartet, and in tandem with some aspects of the arrangement (and maybe how by necessity it was recorded), it kind of raises a little "doesn't sound quite right" flag.


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## sammy24 (May 25, 2014)

All I can say is, if a solo cello sample library came out with a demo that sounded like _that_, it would be a game changer.


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## blougui (May 25, 2014)

Cygnus64 @ Wed May 21 said:


> Christof, I do the same thing with strings= I do an entire string orchestra by myself, overdubbing violin and viola and using samples for lower strings. I did one recently for a publisher. They wanted it more "smooth and even". I renamed the file and resent it, they said "aaah, much better". :lol:
> 
> I've done it many times. Someone will say they don't like something, and I'll say "OK, I'll run it through my quantum vortex flux capacitor, which was EXPENSIVE" and just send the same file back. Works every time.


Had a laugh with this one, thanx !!!

Erik


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## blougui (May 25, 2014)

Christof @ Wed May 21 said:


> a client asked me if I_ really played my cello live because he could hear the *same overtone* on a specific note which happens only if the same sample was used twice and that particular _


_

What ? Do you mean you use the same string over and over ? How shoking !
:lol:_


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## germancomponist (May 25, 2014)

Christof,

is your story true, was this actually happening?


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## Christof (May 25, 2014)

Of course it's a true story, I don't post or tell false stories.


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## doubleattack (May 25, 2014)

Christof @ Fri 23 May said:


> …
> 
> This is from a cello sonata by Vivaldi, adapted for 5 cellos:
> 
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43286649/Vivaldi_Largo.mp3



Your playing of the accompanying cello parts is outstanding - such recordings in stacking mode are truly hard. 
Works even musically much better than your first example.


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## germancomponist (May 25, 2014)

Christof @ Mon May 26 said:


> Of course it's a true story, I don't post or tell false stories.



Unbelievable! o=< 

So then I am with Saxer:


Saxer @ Thu May 22 said:


> it works great if you send a few pictures or a little video with 'real instrument' recordings where they can see you playing.
> 
> most people can't hear but they can see.
> 
> we all know: what looks good tastes better, smells better, sounds better and feels better.


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## doubleattack (May 26, 2014)

germancomponist @ Mon 26 May said:


> Christof @ Mon May 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Of course it's a true story, I don't post or tell false stories.
> ...



Very believable, I think. 
Beside the negligible lyrical explanations of Christof's client, an accidental deception of the first example is very comprehensive, IMHO.

The static chords creating a strong atmosphere, reminiscent of the static samples.

Sometime a desired and interesting effect (listen to "Quit" from "Candide" by L. Bernstein) - but obviously not for a x-mas carol... :wink:


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## markwind (May 26, 2014)

Enyak @ Thu May 22 said:


> Hannes has provided some excellent advice in this thread IMO and I am a bit surprised it's been mostly ignored.
> 
> This is a communication problem on both sides and has little to do with expectations based on sample-produced work vs reality in my opinion. The client perhaps expected more strings movement and expression (dynamics, vibrato) and verbalized this by attributing the lack thereof to the usage of static samples.



Hannes offered a perfect insight to this and I agree, that this has been ignored in this thread surprises me. 

I hear Egos being bruised in this thread, disguised by a form of "We know our stuff lol" rather then to try to understand where the client is coming from. As has been said before in this thread - the client will only use his limited frame of frame reference to verbalize what he hears and not likes. That he expresses it wrongly, doesn't mean he doesn't have a valid complaint about the recording - he might be looking for something different in the sound, but what? It's your job to figure that out. I LOVE to do that! I want to know my client completely in his preferences, it gives me just as much satisfaction as to compose. 

Try to understand the client better.. And don't get so easily offended on how the client expresses himself, you're the expert, it's your job to gap any bridge there might be. 

Also; How do you send a live recording and not have the client know about it before hand? That tells me that there's a lack of communication either way.


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## Christof (May 26, 2014)

I have to add that I didn't communicate directly to the client, but they had the information that this is a "live" recording.
Again, I am not offended and my Ego is quite healthy (If this is what you meant) 
Always the problem with big and long threads here, members chime in and don't read all posts precisely...


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## wesbender (May 26, 2014)

Bruised egos? Oh, please.

The client was rude, condescending and filled with ignorance. Yes, it's to be expected that a non-musician client will be ignorant, but it's a person's responsibility to know when they're ignorant about a topic, and to express themselves appropriately. 

Their intent may have been perfectly innocent, but they went about their goal in entirely the wrong way. All incredulity in this thread is completely justified and has nothing to do with anyone being 'easily offended'.


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## Christof (May 26, 2014)

> Also; How do you send a live recording and not have the client know about it before hand? That tells me that there's a lack of communication either way.



In the second case I clearly (directly) talked about live recordings from the beginning because I was asked to record a piece with my cello, the feedback was this:

_I hear annoying 4th overtone (e) of the lowest string together with fundamental tone C from m113 to the end.
I hear it in both parts which happens only if the same sample was used twice and that particular note of a sampled instrument was not paid proper attention during sampling.

I expect you to play your cello for final tracks._

I won't post the music example here due to respect of this client, maybe he is a forum member, I don't know.


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## Stephen Rees (May 26, 2014)

I try and recognise whether I am dealing with…..

1) A respectful client who values my work where there is miscommunication.
2) A bullying or abusive client.

There has been excellent advice on how to deal with Client Type 1).

Personally I always burn the bridge to Client Type 2).

It is part of a cunning career strategy of mine which is 'rather than trying to be as rich as possible, I am going to try and be as happy and fulfilled as possible (whilst still earning enough money to put a roof over my head and food on the table)'.

It may not be a good strategy for someone else, but it certainly works for me.

To be personal for a moment Christof if I may, the work of yours I have heard I rate very highly indeed, and although I don't know the best way for you to deal with your current client issues, I hope you manage to end up with a client portfolio full of people who recognise the excellent work you do and who put that work to great use.


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## Goran (May 26, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Mon May 26 said:


> I try and recognise whether I am dealing with…..
> 
> 1) A respectful client who values my work where there is miscommunication.
> 2) A bullying or abusive client.
> ...



+1


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## Synesthesia (May 26, 2014)

This client sounds like a proper arsehole.

"I expect you to play your cello for the final recordings"

What a pompous dick!


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## Christof (May 26, 2014)

I had the same thought Paul, after telling him that I played it with my "REAL" cello I got no more replies on that issue, then I asked again that I am a bit worried about his thought that I might have used samples,then I got this reply:

_I thought we cleared up the sampled cello question.
I asked, you answered.I look forward to hear your performance. _

I don't want to offend this guy ( who I don't even know), but this is not the way I use to talk to each other, even if we are strangers.

Anyway, it is my duty to fulfill this job and I will do my best to give him the result he expects.


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## dinerdog (May 26, 2014)

This reminds me of so many advertising clients, showing off what they don't know. The frustrating thing is that after that "know it all" speech from your client, why couldn't they just have asked for "a little more attack" instead of shooting it down?

They seem to be experts at criticizing it, but can't articulate simple change. When I heard your track, I immediately thought "how cool, the softer attack gives it a more vocal quality".

Maybe next time his nephew could just "press a button" on his computer. What a wanker.


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## givemenoughrope (May 26, 2014)

How about sending this genius a video of you tracking the 4 parts? Then, do a skype call with your horn to go over phrasing/attacks/etc. Don't mention the real vs samples thing, just notice him stutter with a silly look on his face. Or maybe just don't waste your time. Your stuff is too good for someone like this IMO.


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## Christof (May 26, 2014)

I appreciate your solidarity, but I don't think it may be a waste of time, I agreed in doing this gig, so I have to complete it, I don't think I am too good for anything, well, maybe for xxx movies.


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## J.f.brown 3 (May 26, 2014)

Cygnus64 @ Wed May 21 said:


> Christof, I do the same thing with strings= I do an entire string orchestra by myself, overdubbing violin and viola and using samples for lower strings. I did one recently for a publisher. They wanted it more "smooth and even". I renamed the file and resent it, they said "aaah, much better". :lol:
> 
> I've done it many times. Someone will say they don't like something, and I'll say "OK, I'll run it through my quantum vortex flux capacitor, which was EXPENSIVE" and just send the same file back. Works every time.





Simply fabulous. Or samply fabulous.


Thats rough, Christoff. Im sorry that happened, and worried about my future since that piece was rejected lol.


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## Christof (May 27, 2014)

Again I have to say that this didn't hit me personally, I was just surprised by the fact that people are so used to the sound of sampled instruments that they hardly can hear the difference to real played ones.


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## NKM (May 27, 2014)

I could see a complaint about the mix were those frequencies that tend to be already eq out from sampled libraries never get heard are now they are causing confusion. Or the lack of 7/8 taiko pattern. Some people don't have the vocabulary and live cello means the client wanted batman.


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## Jordan Gagne (May 27, 2014)

Unfortunately, dropping the "well it was actually real cello" bomb won't help much since they'll just say "well we don't like the sound". But that doesn't mean they're any less wrong.


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## Conor (May 27, 2014)

Christof @ Mon May 26 said:


> Anyway, it is my duty to fulfill this job...



Why?

Maybe I'm misreading something -- it seems like you attempted to communicate with him and move forward, and he responded by calling you a liar.


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## alligatorlizard (May 30, 2014)

Hopefully this is not so much a sign of a worrying trend in the industry, and more just that you've been very unlucky to end up with a client who is just a massive cock!! 

Yes he's got every right to ask for changes to the track, but the way he goes about it isn't the way a person should talk to another person in any situation, not unless of course, they want to be perceived as a massive, patronising cock... 

Kudos to you for not taking it to heart!


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## JCB (May 30, 2014)

this thread baffles me to such an extent, it brought me out of my decade-long lurkdom (now posting under a new username, as I could not access my original account.)

if I were a filmmaker I wouldn't want to hire most of you. I'd be worried I might make a mistake in terminology, and get called a cock, or an idiot, or a troll, or a dick, or arsehole. yes, our clients are insecure and musically ignorant. and yes, some of them are nicer about it than others. as a composer wouldn't you want to make your client feel comfortable and taken care of, even in the face of said insecurity and ignorance? i find most of the comments in this thread to be much more arrogant than the client who thought the real cello was samples.

-cbeck

P.S. all the "re-send identical track, they'll love it" talk makes me cringe too.


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## rayinstirling (May 30, 2014)

JCB @ Fri May 30 said:


> this thread baffles me to such an extent, it brought me out of my decade-long lurkdom (now posting under a new username, as I could not access my original account.)
> 
> if I were a filmmaker I wouldn't want to hire most of you. I'd be worried I might make a mistake in terminology, and get called a cock, or an idiot, or a troll, or a dick, or arsehole. yes, our clients are insecure and musically ignorant. and yes, some of them are nicer about it than others. as a composer wouldn't you want to make your client feel comfortable and taken care of, even in the face of said insecurity and ignorance? i find most of the comments in this thread to be much more arrogant than the client who thought the real cello was samples.
> 
> ...


Good comment JCB, don't use a trowel if you have a shovel :lol:


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## Christof (May 30, 2014)

Well, JCB, I am sorry that this thread led into this direction, I tried to be objective and fair, I didn't use the "wrong" terminology, I was just surprised by the feedback and reaction of both clients.


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## AC986 (May 30, 2014)

JCB @ Fri May 30 said:


> this thread baffles me to such an extent, it brought me out of my decade-long lurkdom (now posting under a new username, as I could not access my original account.)



Your old user name wasn't Cock was it?


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## Christof (May 30, 2014)

Let's behave gentlemen...


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## Ed (May 30, 2014)

I think it's like a form of the placebo effect. If we are told something is live or sampled and we believe it we are more likely to try and find reasons to accept that it is what we believe it to be. But if some especially non expert (non composer) just assumes you used samples but simply dislikes the recording or playing (maybe layered up solo strings will sound unexpected and undesirable to them) then they will look for reasons to why it's sampled. Really they just didn't like the recording style, but their brain decided and assumed it was because it was sampled that explains why they didn't like it.


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## Christof (May 30, 2014)

I think I've learned a lot in reading and participating in this discussion: always tell your client if you used samples or real instruments.
Again, I never was angry or upset, just surprised.


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## JCB (May 30, 2014)

My comment was directed at most of the replies, christof, not you.


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## Guy Rowland (May 30, 2014)

Ed @ Fri May 30 said:


> I think it's like a form of the placebo effect. If we are told something is live or sampled and we believe it we are more likely to try and find reasons to accept that it is what we believe it to be. But if some especially non expert (non composer) just assumes you used samples but simply dislikes the recording or playing (maybe layered up solo strings will sound unexpected and undesirable to them) then they will look for reasons to why it's sampled. Really they just didn't like the recording style, but their brain decided and assumed it was because it was sampled that explains why they didn't like it.



I think that's exactly it.


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## NYC Composer (May 30, 2014)

Taking offense and telling the client off, humiliating him and blowing the gig is the easy way out. I prefer the way you're handling it , Christof. Ignore the noise and carry on. Someday you can bring it up over a beer- you know, after you've scored your fourth feature for him. :D


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## wesbender (May 30, 2014)

JCB @ Fri May 30 said:


> this thread baffles me to such an extent, it brought me out of my decade-long lurkdom (now posting under a new username, as I could not access my original account.)
> 
> if I were a filmmaker I wouldn't want to hire most of you. I'd be worried I might make a mistake in terminology, and get called a cock, or an idiot, or a troll, or a dick, or arsehole. yes, our clients are insecure and musically ignorant. and yes, some of them are nicer about it than others. as a composer wouldn't you want to make your client feel comfortable and taken care of, even in the face of said insecurity and ignorance? i find most of the comments in this thread to be much more arrogant than the client who thought the real cello was samples.
> 
> ...



A "mistake in terminology" isn't the problem. The problem is a rude, condescending client who clearly doesn't know how to carry themselves in a thoughtful and professional manner.




> as a composer wouldn't you want to make your client feel comfortable and taken care of, even in the face of said insecurity and ignorance?



Not if the client doesn't treat me with respect.


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## blougui (May 31, 2014)

As a freelance copywriter - and brother of a freelance copywriter and journalist - I'm afraid this behaviour is occuring more than often. And it has worsen in the last 4 or 5 years (since 2009 and the Big Recession, in fact). The emailing increases the coldness and lack of respect feeling - though Christof I do understand that's not the issue for you in that matter. The client pays so he's never wrong. Even when his hears betray him.
In a world where unemployement, shortage of gigs and so on are the rule, patronising seems to be the way to go for many clients.

- Erik


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## Christof (Jun 12, 2014)

After some side topics in this forum concerning this thread I want to clear up some things:

I never intended to criticize both clients, and I think I actually didn't.
I just wanted to point at the problem of people who are trained to the sound of sampled instruments, no longer able to hear the difference to real performed instruments.

I think this is a growing issue in future.

In another thread someone asks for a remote recording clarinet player, he gets the answer to buy a clarinet sample library by the developer of the library.

Why asking for the real deal when you can get a faked clarinet?

Sample libraries are great, an incredible chance for composers to bring their music to "life", but our ears should not be trained to judge it as the new standard.

I am sorry for some rude comments by other members in this thread, but this is not my responsibility.

But I think the phrase " I expect you to play cello on the final recordings" lacks of respect and politeness.

I always respect my clients and I do what I can to make them happy (depending on the budget and my time of course), and that was the case for both clients, but sometime I have to rant a bit....


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## Hannes_F (Jun 12, 2014)

Christof @ Thu Jun 12 said:


> I just wanted to point at the problem of people who are trained to the sound of sampled instruments, no longer able to hear the difference to real performed instruments.



This could be because during the recent years of astonishing sample development we all have been training our ears to details: legato transitions, portamento transitions, vibrato, bow noise ...

In order to enjoy a real performance we need to step back a bit and hear how it 'speaks' and what it 'says'. It is like putting away that magnifying spectacles in order to see the picture.


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## ProtectedRights (Jun 12, 2014)

Very interesting topic!!

I think there is a certain sound that is rather typical for samples. And I think the real instrument can be played in a way that it comes close to the "typical sample" sound. That might be the point when people get overly critical and judge something as samples which is real in fact.

It could happen to me, to be honest.


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## Cruciform (Jun 14, 2014)

Hi Christof,

I just wanted to say I thoroughly enjoyed your performance, it was obviously real instruments and not samples, and I will definitely be coming to you should I ever need to organise my own cello recordings.

Top stuff!

So if nothing else, this thread has made a couple of potential clients more aware of your services.

Rob.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 14, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Mon May 26 said:


> -
> It is part of a cunning career strategy of mine which is 'rather than trying to be as rich as possible, I am going to try and be as happy and fulfilled as possible (whilst still earning enough money to put a roof over my head and food on the table)'.
> 
> It may not be a good strategy for someone else, but it certainly works for me.



It is an admirable strategy, but hard to pull off. I wish you good luck with it,


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## Stephen Rees (Jun 14, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 14 said:


> It is an admirable strategy, but hard to pull off. I wish you good luck with it,



Thank you


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## Penthagram (Jun 14, 2014)

Christof,

fantastic arrangement and perfomance 

it sings reality from every corner


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