# How long did it take you to become a proficient composer?



## Scott Cairns (Aug 31, 2006)

Hi all, I know this is a broad question, but how long did it take before you felt you were a skilled composer?

I know that we all continue to develop, but did you reach a point at some stage where you felt you had achieved "your sound" or put another way, you realised you could output music in a manner of styles, in a timely fashion and have it sounding highly polished and professional?

I noticed that some of you have been composing for 15 years or more, Im just wondering how long it took you initially to get your chops together?


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## Thonex (Aug 31, 2006)

For me it was in stages. I started writing classical guitar compositions in my late teens. I went to music college and after graduation I got my first sampler and it was a couple years after that that I felt it was clicking. I knew because different ad music houses in Boston were calling me to demo for ads.... and I was winning the bids. So.. probably when I was around 24 ish.

Also, you have to consider that Bostaon isn't New York or LA... so maybe I was competeing against some aweful composers :lol: ... but like you said it's an on-going process. Some days I feel I suck... other days I'm quite happy with my music. 

But there is so much to learn.... never ending.

Cheers,

T


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## Craig Sharmat (Aug 31, 2006)

i still don't feel like one. If it appears I am, then maybe that's an answer. If it appears I'm not, than I am at least correct.


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## joaz (Aug 31, 2006)

Interesting question.
I have never gained what you would call mastery, but from writing my first pieces to taking my Learner plates off, took about 10 years.

Proficiency is a useful term.

As you get better at writing, it is not so much your top level that improves.
But your worst level starts to creep up, till you reach a stage, that even on your flat uninspired days, it doesnt sound too bad.
I personally think that real inspiration, has a mind of its own, and comes and goes when it feels like it.
Proficiency, however is amenable to a little study and practise.

regards Joe


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 31, 2006)

It took me 8-9 yrs of composing full-time. What really made a difference though was working on tv series where I had to pump out an episode a week. In some case, with very different music cues in each one. That's when I had to call upon all the music I'd been into over the years (rock, jazz, classical, contemporary, techno, electroacoustic), had spent years analysing, learning how it works. There's nothing like having these regular deadlines to hone your skills.

Oh, and yeah, I'm still learning, and will always be a student!


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## Scott Cairns (Aug 31, 2006)

Thanks guys, your responses are great. I agree absolutely that we are all students really.

I think Joaz put it very well when he said; _"As you get better at writing, it is not so much your top level that improves.
But your worst level starts to creep up, till you reach a stage, that even on your flat uninspired days, it doesnt sound too bad. "_

I think Ive found that with my own writing recently, Im mastering styles (ok, maybe not mastering, but pulling off styles) quickly for a deadline and the client is happy.

Im finding that my music doesnt suck so badly as before. :???: Im still far from satisfied with it though.


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## choc0thrax (Aug 31, 2006)

I haven't hit 4 years yet and i'm still nowhere near knowing what i'm doing. I have improved a bit though over time. My first year was mostly writing and then hitting play and asking myself "hmm I wonder, will this be a happy or sad piece"?


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## Frederick Russ (Aug 31, 2006)

When I become a proficient composer I'll be sure to bump this topic to give my sage words of advice. To me, John Williams is a proficient composer. I've not heard too many in the same caliber. Maybe Don Davis. Edward Shearmur, Alan Silvestri, Marc Shaiman, Joel McNeely and Danny Elfman.

In the interim I believe its better to think that we'll be students until the final trump sounds and let others be the judge of how proficient we truly are - just my 2¢.


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## Scott Cairns (Aug 31, 2006)

Hi Frederick, I understand what your saying, but I guess Im using the term "proficient" in relative terms.

Id consider a proficient composer one who can;

- satisfy his clients
- meet deadlines
- capture the right feeling or mood for a project in the required style


And perhaps add, one that can make a living from it.


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## Thonex (Aug 31, 2006)

I'd say that calling JW a "proficient" composer is an understatement. I'd say he's a master.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 31, 2006)

Age is overrated too.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 31, 2006)

...not that I'd know.


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## kid-surf (Aug 31, 2006)

Interesting thread and views.

I too think it's a vast understatement to call JW, simply, "proficient". Considering there's not many that will EVER attain his level of mastery. No matter their age.

I hear what you're saying, Scott, and that's more so the way I look at music too. There's a ton of music I think is bitchen but is it 'mastery' or just really 'good' music? And is that not good enough, for someone to have written really good music? seems like it would be. I don't really care how hard the music was to write long as it moves me. If I like it that's all that matters to me. What's easy is writing a "shitty" piece of music in whatever genre. It's hard to write "the best" music in whatever genre (of film or otherwise).


(but hey, I'm content with being a blue collar composer... :D good luck to those of you who strive to attain the white collar status. You know, top 1% in the world. Be prepared for a let down, perhaps.  )


Anyway... I'm no master but I like much of what I do now. So that's enough for me to feel good about getting up in the morning and doing this. But like others have said, I see a very long road ahead of me. I think it'll be when I'm in my 50s that I'll start to believe I'm pretty good. And hopefully it'll be more than just my ego talk'n.  But you know, I'll still realize how much further there is to go even then. It really seems like that cycle could go on indefinitely if we lived long enough to find out.

Oh.... yeah.... that's a good quote Scott... I feel that way too.. like "less" of my stuff now is just flat out crap. I feel like I'm past the threshold of horrible. 


One more thing --- I would say that anyone doing this is is at least a professional, otherwise they wouldn't feel confident enough to go out and pimp themselves and find gigs. Or would they? Maybe the question should be *"when did you think you we're good enough to go out and get work"*..... and maybe a fallow up question of *"when were you ACTUALLY good enough to go out and get work"*. :mrgreen:

was that too many words?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 31, 2006)

The reason I think this question is hard to answer is that most of us started by playing music at a very early age. It's what's in your ears from that background that allows you to write music, and I don't know think you can separate it from writing skills.

There's always someone who just started writing without learning to play at all, but that's very unusual.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 31, 2006)

And Craig, I'm still trying to catch my own tail after reading your post.


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## IvanP (Aug 31, 2006)

Mmmm I wish I could answer this question


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## José Herring (Sep 1, 2006)

Tough question.

Music is constantly evolving. There's always something new to master and there's also things that each individual composer does well.

The only thing I've seen that has stopped me and have stopped other composers is the limited ideas they have about certain kinds of music. This music's cool or this music's not cool type of thinking. I find that that actually blocks people from taking what they can from whatever and using it to improve their skills.

Any composer should be able to write any kind of music from any era and also be original enough to bang out something unique for the future. I think that if you can't do that you're in a lot of trouble when it comes to scoring films. So mastering for us would be the ability to write any kind of music and yet still be ourselves. That's tough to do.

Jose


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## PaulR (Sep 1, 2006)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Aug 31 said:


> Age is overrated too.



Hey old man! How ya doin'? :mrgreen: 

Skilled composer? Not me anyhow anyway. When you talk about skilled composers, I guess you have to use a benchmark of and to whom you're basically drawing comparisons - which in any art form is probably redundant anyway.

Film composers? Well JW is 'the man' today and that's a fact that's virtually inarguable. Whether one actually likes that music or not drifts off into dogma and taste.

Compared to say BH - I'm a fucking moron. Compared to Beethoven or Mozart - I'm pond life. Compared to Holst - Zimmer is.

Hahahah!


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## Hermitage59 (Sep 1, 2006)

Scott Cairns @ Thu Aug 31 said:


> Im finding that my music doesnt suck so badly as before. :???: Im still far from satisfied with it though.



And Scott, I hope it stays that way for you. 
I'm the same, never satisfied, and always pushing the envelope of study or experiementation trying the raise the bar. (I'm 47, and i've realised for some time how true the old saying is: 'The more you learn, the more you realise how little you know'.) I met quite a few muso's over many years that assumed they were 'good enough', and that's where they stayed. Only good enough.

As for your question, i think i'm skilled enough to make a living, and that's evident in the work i get, and choose to take. I feel that's a different question from the same query from the perspective of music only. 
And in that sense i have a lifetime's more to learn to reach my version of 'Musical Nirvana.' That's the goal, but even if i feel i haven't got there, the journey is interesting, and thoroughly enjoyable.

Paul, your eloquence is sublime, lol.

Jose, i partially agree with you from my first position of writing for a living, although there are genres i wouldn't write in as i simply wouldn't be good enough (so i don't take that work), but i will say that even in multiple genres, there's room for one's own style, and instinct. That 'musical ID' could come from constant exposure by credits, or publicity, but maybe more often from a director or producer listening to a score and saying; 

'Man that's Jose. Enlightening and fresh. I'd know his work anywhere. Unique, and different from the others. Get him for the film if you can. His music's interesting.'

And if that doesn't happen already, i wish you and colleagues here much success in the future.


Regards,

Alex.


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## kid-surf (Sep 1, 2006)

"Compared to say BH - I'm a [email protected]#king moron. Compared to Beethoven or Mozart - I'm pond life. Compared to Holst - Zimmer is."

Funny! :mrgreen: especially the last line...  But that's basically what my point is. I'd be glad to be a Zimmer™. What kind of car(s) does he drive again, and where does he live(s). Hence the plural.


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## PaulR (Sep 1, 2006)

Hermitage59 @ Fri Sep 01 said:


> (I'm 47, and i've realised for some time how true the old saying is: 'The more you learn, the more you realise how little you know'.)
> 
> Paul, your eloquence is sublime, lol.
> Alex.



Alex. 47? Gosh. Hahaha!

Nirvana Strings. Dear old Rob Elliot said that yesterday. I think that's totally brilliant - that's great marketing. All these old, wrinkly guys still have some life in them yet!

Anyways - I'm just going outside; I may be some time.

:mrgreen:


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## Daryl (Sep 1, 2006)

kid-surf @ Fri Sep 01 said:


> Funny! :mrgreen: especially the last line...  But that's basically what my point is. I'd be glad to be a Zimmer™. What kind of car(s) does he drive again, and where does he live(s). Hence the plural.


Don't mistake being rich/busy/popular with being good. That way madness lies....

D


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## PaulR (Sep 1, 2006)

kid-surf @ Fri Sep 01 said:


> "Compared to say BH - I'm a [email protected]#king moron. Compared to Beethoven or Mozart - I'm pond life. Compared to Holst - Zimmer is."
> 
> Funny! :mrgreen: especially the last line...  But that's basically what my point is. I'd be glad to be a Zimmer™. What kind of car(s) does he drive again, and where does he live(s). Hence the plural.



BUT! Hahaha! Before I step out onto the golf course.....

One person you'd never want to be - Bernard Herrmann. You're talking about money right Kid? That's fine and let's face it - all these guys today love the money. That's really why they write music. That's right isn't it? You gotta live right Kid? Nothing wrong with any of that.

Holst for example, never really had anything money wise. He would write the Planets mostly during weekends when he wasn't teaching at school.

What a sucker!

:razz: :mrgreen:


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## Hermitage59 (Sep 1, 2006)

PaulR @ Fri Sep 01 said:


> What a sucker!
> 
> :razz: :mrgreen:



lol. Shouldn't that read, 'What a talented sucker?'

:mrgreen:


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## Hermitage59 (Sep 1, 2006)

[quote:9bcc853d05="Daryl @ Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:06 am"] Don't mistaò{Ô   C°á{Ô   C°â{Ô   C°ã{Ô   C°ä{Ô   C°å{Ô   C°æ{Ô   C°ç{Ô   C°è{Ô   C°é{Ô   C°ê{Ô   C°ë{Õ   C°ì{Õ   C°í{Õ   C°î{Õ   C°ï{Õ   C°ð{Õ   C°ñ{Õ   C°ò


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## Christian Marcussen (Sep 1, 2006)

Scott Cairns @ Thu Aug 31 said:


> Hi Frederick, I understand what your saying, but I guess Im using the term "proficient" in relative terms.
> 
> Id consider a proficient composer one who can;
> 
> ...



Using your definition I would say I became proficient 2-3 years ago. But, woa - do I not _feel_ proficient. I really strive to get better all the time, and often feel like I only know 1% of what I would like to.


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## Daryl (Sep 1, 2006)

kid-surf @ Fri Sep 01 said:


> I Usually when I hear people attempt "everything": they invariably have a whole lotta weak attempts to my ears. Show me a guy with every genre and every type of music known to man listen on his website and I'll show you (well, he/she will) a whole bunch of watered down cues that sound more like the muzak version to me. Not sure if that's all that impressive to me.


Actually for once I agree with you, and that's why I find so many film composer's attempts at writing orchestral music laughable. They have so little knowledge of what an orchestra can do that it always sounds rather "Janet and John" to me.

D


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## Daryl (Sep 1, 2006)

Christian Marcussen @ Fri Sep 01 said:


> Using your definition I would say I became proficient 2-3 years ago. But, woa - do I not _feel_ proficient. I really strive to get better all the time, and often feel like I only know 1% of what I would like to.


Christian, I think that there are three stages to learning anything:

1) You know nothing
2) You think that you know everything
3) You realise that you know nothing, but hope that you know enough for the moment, strive to keep learning and hope that you're not found out in the meantime :oops: 

D


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## Ashermusic (Sep 1, 2006)

Daryl @ Fri Sep 01 said:


> Christian Marcussen @ Fri Sep 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Using your definition I would say I became proficient 2-3 years ago. But, woa - do I not _feel_ proficient. I really strive to get better all the time, and often feel like I only know 1% of what I would like to.
> ...



Exactly!

According to the dictionary proficient means "competent and/or skilled at doing something."

For me being a proficient composer (and I do consider myself one) means that if you call me at 9:00 am today and tell me you ned a song or cue(s) that need to meet certain specific requirements as to time, mood, subject matter, etc. I will have it for you by 9:00 am the next day and it will conform to what you ask. Unless it is in a off the beaten path style that I am not really familiar with, in which case I would have some research to do.

Now whether it is great, mediocre, or poor will be a subjective call but I can pretty much warranty that it will be well-crafted.

I have been composing since I was 13 and this month I turn 58. I have worked at it regiularly all these years and my improvement has been gradual so I really cannot telll you when I became proficient. I thought I was at 30 but if I go back and look at the work then it was very flawed compared to what I feel I can do now and 10 years from now (God willing) I will probably look back on today's work and feel the same.


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## Stephen Rees (Sep 1, 2006)

Daryl @ Fri Sep 01 said:


> Christian Marcussen @ Fri Sep 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Using your definition I would say I became proficient 2-3 years ago. But, woa - do I not _feel_ proficient. I really strive to get better all the time, and often feel like I only know 1% of what I would like to.
> ...



I keep feeling like someone is going to catch me out and say 'you don't really know what you're doing do you?' and I'll be like *hands up* 'yep you got me'.

That's after about 7 years of major dedication to learning how to compose, plus many years before that as a pianist. I still adopt the Charles Foster Kane approach (paraphrasing) 'I don't know how to compose, I just try everything I can think of' :smile: , and I guess as time goes by and I learn more, I can think of more things to try.


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 1, 2006)

It's interesting that there are so many "mature" posters piping in on this topic.

What I can't figure out is the love affair with pasture pool. probably ruined a perfectly good farm creating the course too.


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## Hermitage59 (Sep 1, 2006)

Craig Sharmat @ Fri Sep 01 said:


> It's interesting that there are so many "mature" posters piping in on this topic.
> 
> What I can't figure out is the love affair with pasture pool. probably ruined a perfectly good farm creating the course too.




Yeah, Yeah Craig, lol.

You'll keep saying that until you've stroked the near perfect 9 iron onto the green, and knocked it stiff....

Sigh..............

:mrgreen:


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## José Herring (Sep 1, 2006)

[quote:3c9697007a="kid-surf @ Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:13 am"]As for what Jose said --

I disagree. Usually when I hear people attempt "everything": they invariably have a whole lotta weak attempts to my ears. Show me a guy with every genre and every type of music known to man listen on his website and I'll show you (well, he/she will) a whole bunchò{ÿ   C¹D{ÿ   C¹E{ÿ   C¹F{ÿ   C¹G{ÿ   C¹H{ÿ   C¹I{ÿ   C¹J{ÿ   C¹K{ÿ   C¹L{ÿ   C¹M{ÿ   C¹N{ÿ   C¹O{ÿ   C¹P{ÿ   C¹Q{ÿ   C¹R{ÿ   C¹S{ÿ   C¹T{ÿ   C¹U{ÿ   C¹V{ÿ   C¹W{ÿ   C¹X{ÿ   C¹Y{ÿ   C¹Z{ÿ   C¹[{ÿ   C¹\{ÿ   C¹]|    C¹^|    C¹_|    C¹`|    C¹a|    C¹b|    C¹c|    C¹d|    C¹e|    C¹f|    C¹g|    C¹h|    C¹i|    C¹j|    C¹k|    C¹l|    C¹m|    C¹n|    C¹o|    C¹p|    C¹q|    C¹r|    C¹s|    C¹t|    C¹u|    C¹v|    C¹w|   C¹x|   C¹y|   C¹z|   C¹{|   C¹||   C¹}|   C¹~|   C¹|   C¹€|   C¹|   C¹‚|   C¹ƒ|   C¹„|   C¹…|   C¹†|   C¹‡|   C¹ˆ|   C¹‰|   C¹Š|   C¹‹|   C¹Œ|   C¹|   C¹Ž|   C¹|   C¹|   C¹‘|   C¹’|   C¹“|   C¹”|   C¹•|   C¹–|   C¹—|   C¹˜|   C¹™|   C¹š|   C¹›|   C¹œ|   C¹|   C¹ž|   C¹Ÿ|   C¹ |   C¹¡|   C¹¢|   C¹£|   C¹¤|   C¹¥|   C¹¦|   C¹§|   C¹¨|   C¹©|   C¹ª|   C¹«|   C¹¬|   C¹­|   C¹®|   C¹¯|   C¹°|   C¹±|   C¹²|   C¹³              ò|   C¹µ|   C¹Ö|   C¹×|   C¹¶|   C¹·|   C¹¸|   C¹¹|   C¹º|   C¹»|   C¹¼|   C¹½|   C¹¾|   C¹¿|   C¹À|   C¹Á|   C¹Â|   C¹Ã|   C¹Ä|   C¹Å|   C¹Æ|   C¹Ç|   C¹È|   C¹É|   C¹Ê|   C¹Ë|   C¹Ì|   C¹Í|   C¹Î|   C¹Ï|   C¹Ð|   C¹Ñ|   C¹Ò|   C¹Ó|   C¹Ô|   C¹Õ|   C¹Ø|   C¹Ù|   C¹Ú|   C¹Û|   C¹Ü|   C¹Ý|   C¹Þ|   C¹ß|   C¹à|   C¹á|   C¹â|   C¹ã|   C¹ä|   C¹å|   C¹æ|   C¹ç|   C¹è|   C¹é|   C¹ê|   C¹ë|   C¹ì|   C¹í|   C¹î|   C¹ï|   C¹ð|   C¹ñ|   C¹ò|   C¹ó|   C¹ô|   C¹õ|   C¹ö|   C¹÷|   C¹ø|   C¹ù|   C¹ú|   C¹û|   C¹ü|   C¹ý|   C¹þ|   C¹ÿ|   Cº |   Cº|   Cº|   Cº|   Cº|   Cº|   Cº|   Cº|   Cº|   Cº	|   Cº
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## Mike Greene (Sep 1, 2006)

Daryl @ Fri Sep 01 said:


> Christian, I think that there are three stages to learning anything:
> 
> 1) You know nothing
> 2) You think that you know everything
> 3) You realise that you know nothing, but hope that you know enough for the moment, strive to keep learning and hope that you're not found out in the meantime :oops:


Perfect, Daryl!  

I did a variation on these steps. I started at step 1, and then have bounced back and forth between steps 2 and 3 for the last 10 years or so. Early this summer I was at step 2, now I've been humbled back to step 3 again.

- Mike Greene


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## kid-surf (Sep 1, 2006)

*Hermitage59 --- * Your country techno metal cue sounds interesting! That I have *not* heard before. :D

*Jose --* I hear what you're saying...

I'd call that being versatile. That I agree with, we do need to be somewhat versatile at this level since we're pretty much forced do random gigs to keep going. So, agreed, we have to be prepared to attempt to write 'whatever' quickly and convincingly.... to at least convince the dudes hiring you.

Yeah I get that, and agree with it. I'd 'try' to do any type of music. But I'm probably not gonna be able to write a legit, say, "Show Tune" if they ask.  I'd surly give it my best shot though... like the next guy.

*Thonex -- * I agree with what you said too. I think the distinction, to me, is how well someone can pull off something they aren't familiar with. I would say that some are good enough that they _can and do_ make many types of music sound legit. But not the majority IMO. I believe what I'm referring to is newer composers that tries to have every conceivable genre on his website. And for my ears many times it sounds forced and not legit. The music will feel like it's got no identity for me. But hey, if that sort of thing gets people work, good for them.

And there are the people I've heard who are very good at one style, say orchestral, then they'll have their "hip" and or "hybrid" cues that fall pretty flat for me. Or maybe a guy that does really good romantic comedy (or happy stuff), and yet their horror sounds like a Disney version of horror (meaning it's pretty "light" and not very scary, to my ears.). Or whatever else.... 

It could very well seem impressive to newer directors that aren't that familiar with film music. Perhaps they simply see it as versatility and don't quite know the difference between well done and not so well done? I have no idea what directors are thinking in general. :D

Then, true, there are some who RULE at most everything, or simply can do very good work in just about most cases... it's just rare I feel. 

Just being honest with my opinion. But it's still just an opinion. :D

*Daryl ---* Glad you could find something to agree with me on. :D I agree with what you said too. Crazy as that was for me....  :D


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## navidson (Sep 1, 2006)

I think a composer is more likely to come up with a convincing cue in a specific genre if they have a particular passion for that kind of music. You can study the mechanics behind a style of music, but if it ultimatly fails to speak to you then you'll end up producing something that is technically sound but... empty.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 1, 2006)

If you're talking about the difference between baroque and pointilism, then okay - I'll agree that not everyone can do both. But if you're talking about anything with a beat, then I say feh. You should be able to get the idea of any genre pretty quickly (as long as you're able to understand the changes in more complicated styles).

In other words, I thnik too much is made of this. You don't have to be French to come up with European disco.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 1, 2006)

"It's interesting that there are so many "mature" posters piping in on this topic."

Like who?


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## PaulR (Sep 1, 2006)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Sep 01 said:


> "It's interesting that there are so many "mature" posters piping in on this topic."
> 
> Like who?



:mrgreen: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Certainly not me - that's for sure.

I just read Choc's post - man, that made me laugh. That's seriously funny.

:lol: :lol:


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## TheoKrueger (Sep 2, 2006)

Considering someone is not a brick, i believe that it takes a person around 10 years to become proficient in something, be it programming, writing, composing or painting. 10 years of some moderate practice every day and you should have a fluent creative routine going on.

I don't believe in talent, i believe in philosophy and psychological conditions of a person; if you believe that you are already proficient you will be much sooner. Spend your time wondering if you are and its possible that you will never become what you want. In art where beauty and quality are both relative its up to us to be what we like.

To answer your quetion, at the moment i feel much worse a musician and less proficient than i was 7 years ago, so again i think its all personal perception.


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## kid-surf (Sep 2, 2006)

"I don't believe in talent"


really?


From my view "talent" explains why two people can get the same training and one might emerge a far better composer. Not necessarily technically, emotionally. How would you explain that? 

I believe the "greatness" a composer has, or doesn't have, is innate and was there from the day they were born. Some people just have a more beautiful mind (IMO).

I believe all art forms works that way.....


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 2, 2006)

As a former teacher (5 yrs), I can only agree with that. In any class I had, there were only a few that had 'the voice', however you wish to define that, and no teaching of mine could bring that 'voice' out of any student who didn't already have it...


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## Ashermusic (Sep 2, 2006)

Talent is fine but as my conductor at Boston Conservatory Rouben Gregoiran used to say, "Music is 10% imspiration, 90% perspiration."


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## Mike Greene (Sep 2, 2006)

Maybe. But the tunes I've spent the most perspiration on tend not to be my best works. :???:


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 2, 2006)

Ashermusic @ 2/9/2006 said:


> Talent is fine but as my conductor at Boston Conservatory Rouben Gregoiran used to say, "Music is 10% imspiration, 90% perspiration."


Sure. I'll never forget how some (not all, of course) of the most talented students unfortunately lacked some of the other attributes that one needs in order to make a living as an artist. We all know that it takes a strong work ethic, good communication skills, chutzpah, etc in order to succeed. Talent alone will only get you so far. That said, I'd rather listen to a talented composer! :lol:


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## Ashermusic (Sep 2, 2006)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Sep 02 said:


> Ashermusic @ 2/9/2006 said:
> 
> 
> > Talent is fine but as my conductor at Boston Conservatory Rouben Gregoiran used to say, "Music is 10% imspiration, 90% perspiration."
> ...



Ah but assesing talent is subjective while assessing craft is objective. I routinely hear people describe composers as talemted who I think suck and dis composers I think are great.

For instance, opinions make vary on someone like Andrew Lloyd Webber about his talent and taste but her is no denying him props as a craftsman.

Overall I would of course prefer to listen to a highly skilled and very talented person but frequently I would prefer to listen to a moderately talented skilled person than a very talented unskilled one.


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## kid-surf (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree Ned.... and with you Mike, and with 'some' of what you said Jay. :D

Mike, like you, my best stuff often seems to flow out, while the stuff I and up trashing or don't like later always seems to be the most difficult.

Talent for me is simply someone that writes what I feel is "on the nose" for that particular emotion, or plain, an interesting/moving musical sensibility. I believe talent is only subjective after a certain threshold. People below that threshold are simply not talented. The line is very gray.... yet it is there. I'd say that's why we can all agree that Kenny-G is pretty lame :D and JW pretty fantastic.. 


I can respect someone's "craft", someone like Andrew Lloyd Weber, or a guitarist that plays a million miles an hour, or some who writes Country.  But there are some people that, to me, routinely write a succession of notes that are "unique" to them and speak to me. Interestingly, the people that do this the best, out of what I've heard from peers and Top dogs, what I like the best is from very successful composers. Is that a coincidence?

Where I differ from you, Jay, is that a moderately talented 'skilled' craftsmen doesn't move me much at all. I do hear the "technique" but I just don't FEEL anything. And that's the only reason I like to listen to music. Otherwise I could listen to someone play scales.... it's correct, but it's not very moving, to me anyway. (not that anyone would listen to scales and find it enjoyable, but that's what some music 'feels' like to me. One might say "well you just didn't get complex music then, it's you not them...." But then why would I get someone else of that same skill level?---- Rhetorical maybe.)


But since you threw the bone out there, Jay.  Out of curiosity, who are some of these composers you like and don't. No one will hold it against you.  I just find perception of music very interesting. Besides you had to know someone would ask...  at least say who you think is great.

But I do sometimes wonder if some composers are more moved by difficulty rather than content. You know, without realizing it. At times composers remind me of prog-rock-ers. Some of that stuff borders on unlistenable for me (most of it), yet it's hard to play. And therefor, impressive, as a 'craft'.... I suppose?


*So my question is:* Are there right and left brained composers? Maybe that would explain why some prefer craft over talent and some prefer talent over craft....... ? (we all like both, but if you had to pick)

Anyway back to writing some shitty music.... :D


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## Ashermusic (Sep 2, 2006)

kid-surf @ Sat Sep 02 said:


> I agree Ned.... and with you Mike, and with 'some' of what you said Jay. :D
> 
> Mike, like you, my best stuff often seems to flow out, while the stuff I and up trashing or don't like later always seems to be the most difficult.
> 
> ...



Well, as far as naming names of those I don't like, I am not going to go there. This is a small business and it gains me nothing to denigrate a successful competitor on a public forum.

I will tell you who I do like. I am especially impressed with John Powell, John Debney, Christopher Beck and Thomas Newman of the current batch of A list composers. And John Williams, of course.

Bernard Herrman, Jerry Fielding, Henry Mancini, Elmer Bernstein and especially Jerry Goldsmith were my favorites. A producer I gave a CD to recently said it reminded him of Goldsmith because of its range of styles done well. I was flattered beyond belief. 

For me a moderately talented craftsman will at least engage my intellect while a talented person without craft tends to piss me off because I hear what he could be with some discipline and then I can't enjoy it.


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## kid-surf (Sep 3, 2006)

Fair enough... you can tell me who you don't dig in person some time. (true it gains you nothing to slam people here, but I'm the type who'll ask anyway if you bring it up) :D

The people you listed in your current crop are a few of my favorite composers. (John Powell, Christopher Beck and Thomas Newman are in my top 5) They have a sensibility that I "get". For me their music connects to emotions the way I feel music is supposed to connect to those emotions. It's easily relatable for me, not because it's easy to create but because the sensibility is in tune with mine.


So would those be the guys you say people don't dig? 


Compared to Goldsmith, eh? Cool. Maybe I should listen to your stuff. :D (if you've got any msuic on your site I'll check it out once my DSL get's fixed -- dial up is a bitch)

*"For me a moderately talented craftsman will at least engage my intellect while a talented person without craft tends to piss me off because I hear what he could be with some discipline and then I can't enjoy it."*

I could see that... but the person could very well be studying as he works. So i wouldn't say all hope is lost for the "craft" part. Especially if they are younger. It's probably easier to learn craft than learn how to be talented... since talent is innate by definition.

I'll tell you what pisses me off (in a relative sense  )..... when i hear a guy with plenty of craft but can't put two notes together that make me feel anything. I think to myself "how could anyone feel anything listening to their music". (yet notice I'm not talking about class-A guys, there's not many-if any- at that level where I can't see a great deal in their music, even if I don't personally like it)


My problem is I don't often hear things I truly like/love from "friends/peers" and so forth, I wish I did (ouch, I know, but honest). Occasionally I'll hear a friend do something I think is really cool, something I would put in my iPod. But often times there's something I would have done differently even on the thing I liked. Yet with the Class-A guys I don't hear anything that could be fixed or changed. Mostly it's the Class-A guys that impress me. 

Although, I think it would be cool if I found a peer I could be a true fan off........


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 3, 2006)

"For me a moderately talented craftsman will at least engage my intellect while a talented person without craft tends to piss me off because I hear what he could be with some discipline and then I can't enjoy it."

I agree, but what I *really* like is an untalented person with no craft or discipline.


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## ComposerDude (Sep 4, 2006)

kid-surf @ Sun Sep 03 said:


> Yet with the Class-A guys I don't hear anything that could be fixed or changed. Mostly it's the Class-A guys that impress me.



Jay, could that be in part because the A-list folks have budgets for live players, top-quality recording/mixing/mastering, great equipment, an orchestration team, etc.? In other words, the live players add a human/organic element, great orchestration shows off the music in a polished form, and the top flight technical stuff presents it in the clearest way?

Obviously the A-list-ers' composition chops are top notch (that's how they stay on the A list) but in comparing apples-to-apples, just wondering how much the production elements add to your enjoyment of the A-list-ers work above and beyond just the composition...

-Peter


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## Ashermusic (Sep 4, 2006)

ComposerDude @ Mon Sep 04 said:


> kid-surf @ Sun Sep 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Yet with the Class-A guys I don't hear anything that could be fixed or changed. Mostly it's the Class-A guys that impress me.
> ...



Tha's not my comment you are quoting Peter. I wouldn't have said that.


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## José Herring (Sep 4, 2006)

Kid-Surf's name is also Jay, Jay. It does get confusing.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 4, 2006)

josejherring @ Mon Sep 04 said:


> Kid-Surf's name is also Jay, Jay. It does get confusing.



Ahh, I see. Well he has some nerve!


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## Christian Marcussen (Sep 4, 2006)

Daryl @ Fri Sep 01 said:


> Christian Marcussen @ Fri Sep 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Using your definition I would say I became proficient 2-3 years ago. But, woa - do I not _feel_ proficient. I really strive to get better all the time, and often feel like I only know 1% of what I would like to.
> ...



Indeed - looks like I'm on the right track though


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 4, 2006)

"Narcisissist."

*trying in vain to think of a come-back*


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## kid-surf (Sep 4, 2006)

Ashermusic @ Mon Sep 04 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Sep 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Kid-Surf's name is also Jay, Jay. It does get confusing.
> ...



My bad... it's just that I really admire you. My name _used_ to be Bill. :D


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## kid-surf (Sep 4, 2006)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Sep 04 said:


> "Narcisissist."
> 
> *trying in vain to think of a come-back*



We are all waiting in anticipation... It better be good! :evil:


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## kid-surf (Mar 8, 2007)

Hey Peter--

Yeah, could see how one might come to that conclusion. Or even how one might be heavily influenced with the meticulous nature of high dollar film scores (soundtracks). But, nah, I'm not really swayed at all by the production and so forth. Having experience engineering leaves music and the various production elements on two sides of the street for me.

Mostly the difference (I see) boils down to something as simple as note selection. (if we are assuming the people I'm comparing are more or less equally trained)

Could be part of the reason not everyone from the same class goes on to be a well respected or maybe even a 'working' composer.


From that point of view --- I think it would be fascinating to hear a number of the top composers (old school and nu-skool) all spec the same 'typical' scene. And have no namers do it too (a few of the highest regarded people on that level). Record it with real instruments and then get opinions..... opinions that would invariably be all over the map. But it would be a fun listen. And interesting reading why people felt particular things worked and didn't.... even though everyone sharing their opinion would essentially be right and wrong all at the same time.


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## sinkd (Mar 8, 2007)

Scott Cairns @ Thu Aug 31 said:


> Hi all, I know this is a broad question, but how long did it take before you felt you were a skilled composer?



Ummm... What time is it now?

Seriously. I am 37, and am just now starting to feel like I am not wasting people's time when I write concert music. I wasn't born into a musical family, so the baseline of experience and exposure to good music was a little lacking. I had a knack for theory, which won me a scholarship to a good school, but it has really been a 20 year path from then until today.

Of course I have taken some detours (you have to feed your family) and so I wasn't composing constantly during that time frame, but I think it also might be a blessing that I wasn't trying to "put myself out there" before I really had something to say.

DS


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## Kaatza_Music (May 20, 2007)

I'm 52 and I think I am getting closer to being a proficient composer :shock: Maybe one of these days.

I started writing pop/rock tunes when I was about 13, played in rock bands through my teens. Then I decided that I wanted to study music seriously and switched from a physics major to a BA in music composition and theory (seriously). Must have been something in the water. Going to a classical music school exposed me to all sorts of new and wonderful music and I tried to emulate some of the masters. I spend a whole summer analyzing "The Art of the Fugue." 

After I got my BA I thought I would get a good job with the CBC or something like that (I was living in Vancouver at the time). Found out pretty quickly what a BA in music was worth in the real world in '72. So I went back to playing in rock bands trying to catch a wave. Not much action, some regional success and local airplay. Then I took a course in audio engineering got a job as an assistant engineer at Mushroom Studios which meant I setup mikes, picked up lunch, made coffee and vacuumed the studio. Later I got to do a fair bit of studio work as a musician and producer. Eventually I invested in a studio in Vancouver called Bullfrog Studios, but by the late 80s we were a victim of the cheap 8 track gear available and we had to close the doors.

For me, I think there have been 3 events which have significantly improved my composition skills.

1. Being able to afford a decent 8 track home studio (It was a Fostex A8.)
2. MIDI (I started with an Atari STe and Notator SL then upgraded to Logic 1.0)
3. DAWs, Sample Libraries, Plugins (I just love my toys!!!)

So now I am sitting here in the beautiful Sierra Nevada's in Sonora, CA and still trying to perfect my art. And I still work a full time day job as I do not make enough money from music to survive here in this beautiful but expensive state. I recently had 2 job offers from architectural firms in Irvine and Santa Monica. The office in Santa Monica is only a few blocks from Zimmer's studio. I am tempted to make the move, but don't know if I can afford to live in LA or if I can stand the cultural shock. But I am finding it hard to network and make connections living up here in the hills.
Sure the internet is great tool, but there is nothing better than a handshake and a face to face. Sorry, I am getting a little OT. Anyway, that is my story to date.


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## Frederick Russ (May 20, 2007)

Frederick Russ @ Thu Aug 31 said:


> When I become a proficient composer I'll be sure to bump this topic to give my sage words of advice.



I still feel this way by the way. Somebody obviously wanted to bump this old topic. At least it gives me an excuse to call Nick B a narcissist. 

edit: although I believe one definition of narcissism is replying to one's own posts. Now I too am thinking of a comeback...


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## José Herring (May 20, 2007)

Agreed.

It's amazing to me what gets put into films these days. Whether you're proficient or not is really a matter of choice, but not a requirement. Our minds get warped by the money and the successes and publicity of A list composers but the truth of the matter is that these guys are actually far less proficient than the composers of 40 to 60 years ago who actually made a lot less money and did make a lot more music that people actually remember.

So imo ability to promote and the ability to inspire confidence in others is far more important than any proficiency of compositional skill. Learning to work major and minor chords and learning to put a melody line together is all the proficiency that anybody needs these days.


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## Leon Willett (May 21, 2007)

Interesting topic. To answer the first post, I've been composing professionally for 3 years and I don't feel even remotely like I've got "my chops".


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## Waywyn (May 22, 2007)

Yeah, same here. I am working as a full time composer since around 2004, but there is still so much to learn. Hopefully someday I will create some music which I still like after 6 month being done.


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