# Why most TV scores have to be so boring ?



## rpaillot (Nov 18, 2010)

Hi ,


I was watching and listening to some TV scores lately, and found them so poorly written !!!
Why standards have become so low ? 

I'm also working for a few TV shows, and i'm asked the same kind of sound. So I've to do it to live but im kinda ashamed ! Apparently, that's what producers like and have been used to , and they dont want anything else...

Look, today, for many TV shows, we can score them without using more than 1 chord progression !!! And even sometimes without writing more than 10 notes ( police and thriller shows especially ) 

Even a student in composition, with all the tools available ( Evolve, Omnisphere, Stylus ) could score these shows with one finger. 
You just need to add a low pad for suspens scene, add some "musical FX" that you can find in omnisphere psychoacoustic sounds. Some rhythmic loop ( in Evolve ) , some cut off filter that you automate, some 1/4 dotted delay, and voila ... you've done the score.

Emotional scenes, just add some high strings , with lot of suspension and tension in the writing, and add some high piano notes à la Thomas Newman ...

Funnily, one day I opened my logic midi tracks in the score editor and I wondered what would happen if I made an orchestra play the resulting score. Well, that would be simply horrible !!!


Can this still be called "music" ? 
For me a better word would be "musical sound design"....


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## EthanStoller (Nov 18, 2010)

I think there is some high quality TV scoring work being done today. Ludwig Goransson's score for an episode of "Community" a few weeks ago was brilliant. The episode was a funny take-off on _Apollo 13_. Goransson did a great job of emulating that kind of epic score, which only enhanced the comedy. I think David Schwartz, Chris Tilton and Adam Cohen are among other composers making some great music for the small screen, definitely not just push-button scores.


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## JohnG (Nov 18, 2010)

I think it's two things -- the preferences of the producers for music with no melodies, no traditional harmonic progressions (it's all song-based or quasi-modal or drones), no woodwinds, and nothing much else that would be recognisable in the 19th century as music.

But the second thing is time. It's beyond insane. Three or four days to write sometimes 40 minutes of music. Music editors are creating half the score.


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## germancomponist (Nov 18, 2010)

> ....You know damn well there are TONS of button-pushers out there, literally leaning on one key on the keyboard, while a sample (created by actual musicians) plays. These glorified human playback devices have A-list film credits more often than not.



This is what Mike Verta wrote in another thread. And I agree 100%. o/~ o=< 

Same here in Germany... .


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## midphase (Nov 18, 2010)

Can you please give me a link to the thread that you pulled that quote from?


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## germancomponist (Nov 18, 2010)

midphase @ Thu Nov 18 said:


> Can you please give me a link to the thread that you pulled that quote from?



Sure, it is in the "Commercial compositions" thread. http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18725&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


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## José Herring (Nov 18, 2010)

I don't think that orchestral composers really have an ear for electronic music, which is what is dominant in TV today. Honestly if you think you can do a TV score like CSI, or CSI: Miami or most of the popular tv shows by pulling together a few Omnisphere patches then you are really mistaken. If that were the case then everybody could do TV and I know for a fact that everybody can't.

I went into a TV score once with that attitude that "all I needed to do was push a few synth buttons" and I failed miserably at it. Then I spent the next few years finding out exactly how these scores are created and found a wealth of information that helped me to do electronic scores successfully. 

Funny thing is that electronic based composers make the same mistake about more "traditional" styles of music. I had one friend who's on the electronic side of the ledger say of a big well know film composer that "he's just a piano strings type composer". I thought that was funny.

Honestly if you really listen to what's going on in TV you'll find more modern music and more variation and more of a willingness to take a chance on new stuff than you will in film music today.

Don't be so harsh. Really try to understand. Closed mindedness won't really serve you.

That being said of course there's some bad stuff on TV. But it's not universally bad. Most TV composers are actually trying hard to be quite original. Jeff Beal, Michael Levine, Jeff Cardona, Bill Brown, Kevin Kiner and the many other really popular TV guys are really good composers in their own right. Same goes for other forum members like Craig Sharmat and Thonex who have done a lot of good TV work.

It's annoying me a little bit. The lack of understanding for other kinds of work here on this forum.


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## choc0thrax (Nov 18, 2010)

You know what show has good music? 24. Oh wait that show ended...well at least there's still Lost...oh yeah gone. BSG? nope, gone. Alia- nevermind. Yeah it's official, everything sux now.


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## Hannes_F (Nov 18, 2010)

rpaillot @ Thu Nov 18 said:


> I was watching and listening to some TV scores lately, and found them so poorly written !!!
> Why standards have become so low ?



It is definetely the system.

I remember a TV production where the music was so bad sounding (bad both in overly stereotypic/cliché and in production sense) that in my opinion it cheaped down the whole film. Actually I found it so bad that I looked up the composer.

Then again I saw a theatre movie and the music was so good sounding (both in terms of composition and sound ... well it was recorded live anyways) that I immediately ordered the soundtrack.

At some point I found out it was the same guy (maybe a member of this forum even, so I will not tell any name).

Just imagine ... at one occasion the music, the product of an artist, that what he is measured by, is so false sounding that this actually attracts attention and at the other occasion I must run home and order the soundtrack. Same guy. In such a case it is certainly not the fault of the composer's abilities. I can only imagine that the time/cost frame of the TV production must have been incredibly tense. Most probably everybody else used up more time than he should and then the composer had to rush it through without sleeping for X days.

I watch such examples since a while and wonder how composers feel that must regularly produce so far below what they could do if given more time and budget. Sometimes I think futural musicologists could come to the conclusion in hindsight that financial pressure and technology did literally waste the artistical potential of a generation of composers and I wonder how long this will go on.


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## choc0thrax (Nov 18, 2010)

josejherring @ Thu Nov 18 said:


> Honestly if you think you can do a TV score like CSI, or CSI: Miami or most of the popular tv shows by pulling together a few Omnisphere patches then you are really mistaken.



Everyone knows that these days you need Cinematic Guitars and the Evolve Mutations bundle pack if you wanna compete.


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## José Herring (Nov 18, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Thu Nov 18 said:


> josejherring @ Thu Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly if you think you can do a TV score like CSI, or CSI: Miami or most of the popular tv shows by pulling together a few Omnisphere patches then you are really mistaken.
> ...



If you think it's that easy then why aren't you doing it?


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## choc0thrax (Nov 18, 2010)

josejherring @ Thu Nov 18 said:


> choc0thrax @ Thu Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Thu Nov 18 said:
> ...



Cause I like a challenge.


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## José Herring (Nov 18, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Thu Nov 18 said:


> josejherring @ Thu Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > choc0thrax @ Thu Nov 18 said:
> ...



Sounds a bit like a cop out. Do a CSI:Miami style cue and post it.


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## KingIdiot (Nov 18, 2010)

Anyone catch the replacement music for the Human Target Title sequence? They replaced McCreary's live orchestra score with an unbelievably amateurish guitar riff playing over orchestral stuff. Its embarrassing. I mean I like Tim Jones' stuff on Chuck, it's fun, and really "MUSE'ish" with all the triplet synth arpeggios... but I hope he had nothing to do with that title sequence. 

I get that McCreary's live orchestra and ramatic approach may have been a bit "high brow" sounding for where they wanted the show to move towards (I never liked it, so Ionly checked it out to hear if they changed the title sequence), but the choice to this horrible new piece of music was actually devastating to me as a composer AND music lover.


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## germancomponist (Nov 18, 2010)

And don`t forget these well known "TEMP-Tracks"! 
You have to write nearly the same music or another composer will get the job..... . o/~

Isn`t this one reason because some well known composer also works as "ghost writers"? :mrgreen:


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## choc0thrax (Nov 18, 2010)

josejherring @ Thu Nov 18 said:


> choc0thrax @ Thu Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Thu Nov 18 said:
> ...



Buy me a copy of Cinematic Guitars and I'll consider it.


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## José Herring (Nov 18, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Thu Nov 18 said:


> josejherring @ Thu Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > choc0thrax @ Thu Nov 18 said:
> ...



:lol: :lol: :lol: 

You have a unique way of winning a debate!


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## rpaillot (Nov 18, 2010)

josejherring @ Thu Nov 18 said:


> I don't think that orchestral composers really have an ear for electronic music, which is what is dominant in TV today. Honestly if you think you can do a TV score like CSI, or CSI: Miami or most of the popular tv shows by pulling together a few Omnisphere patches then you are really mistaken. If that were the case then everybody could do TV and I know for a fact that everybody can't.
> 
> I went into a TV score once with that attitude that "all I needed to do was push a few synth buttons" and I failed miserably at it. Then I spent the next few years finding out exactly how these scores are created and found a wealth of information that helped me to do electronic scores successfully.
> 
> ...




I know what you mean. It's true that there are very well produced pieces of music in some TV shows. But it's well PRODUCED. Not well "composed" . 
A lot of CSI miami cues shows a lot of producing skills. But what if you transcribe a CSI miami cue onto a score ? We'll see a lot of whole notes, basic harmonies ( fundamental, fifth and third), good bass lines for some action cues...


Honestly, do you think it's harder to master strings writing or master CSI music writing ? 
If I spent one year doing only CSI type cue, I think I'll easily approach what the CSI composers did. 
I've been learning orchestral music for 5 years and i'm still far from the masters...


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## mathis (Nov 18, 2010)

rpaillot @ Thu Nov 18 said:


> I've been learning orchestral music for 5 years and i'm still far from the masters...



And so what? Does that make you a better composer? No, only a better orchestrator. But it IS really annoying to compete those individual skills. I'm completely with Jose here.


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## Mike Greene (Nov 18, 2010)

I actually think a lot of primetime TV music is really good. I just saw Dexter last night and was thinking how great I think the music is. Granted, it's not a 110 piece orchestra, but the show doesn't call for that. Daniel Licht nails the feel and that haunting string line is perfect. It takes advantage of the TV medium because it recurs from episode to episode when the "powerful moment" happens.

TV is a different medium than film. Not just budgets and time and all that, but the medium itself. A big cinematic (especially orchestral) score with sweeping melodies and all that isn't going to work very well on TV unless the viewer has an incredible sound system. Most viewers (including at my house) don't. I remember channel surfing one day (15 years ago) and landing on one of the newer Star Trek shows. It had a live orchestral score and I remember thinking how it didn't work very well and sounded kinda cheesy.

In fact, of the TV shows that budget for a live orchestra, the one that I think worked the best was Lost, and that's because Giacchino didn't really use the orchestra in the obviously "orchestral" way.


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## José Herring (Nov 18, 2010)

rpaillot @ Thu Nov 18 said:


> josejherring @ Thu Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think that orchestral composers really have an ear for electronic music, which is what is dominant in TV today. Honestly if you think you can do a TV score like CSI, or CSI: Miami or most of the popular tv shows by pulling together a few Omnisphere patches then you are really mistaken. If that were the case then everybody could do TV and I know for a fact that everybody can't.
> ...



Point well taken.

I assume that you're pretty intelligent or you wouldn't gravitate towards orchestral music. I think that we as intelligent people try to make things too complicated. I ran into some problems with my orchestral works a while back where I wasn't satisfied with the results anymore. Partly due to my limitations in working with samples, but that wasn't the only thing.

So as a side study a few months ago I started to really study the works of the "master" composers that I thought were really effective. Since I'm concerned with gaining a broad public audience for my work I limited myself to "classical" pieces and composers that have a broad public appeal.

What I found was how utterly simplistic the works are but that each note and each part had a function contributing to the overall whole. There wasn't stuff just thrown in for the sake of technological sophistication. 

I haven't fully formulated my theories yet. I'm about to embark on a set of originally composed works as kind of etudes to test some hypothesis I have. Kind of pure technique exercises without any particular meaning beyond the music itself. Should prove interesting.

As a precursor the kind of theories I want to test are using relatively simple harmonies yet making the parts really interesting or virtuosic like Mozart or John Williams or John Adams. And, using music that is complicated in terms of harmony and rhythm but making the parts relatively simple like Bernard Hermann or Stravinsky. The ideas or theories I'm trying to move away from involve writing ridiculously hard parts governed by extremely sophisticated theoretical devices kind of like Schoenberg or Mahler (not that I don't love Mahler. I do. I wish there were more of an audience for his work :? .)


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## Ashermusic (Nov 18, 2010)

I do not  think it is a coincidence that the guys who do the CSI type stuff well (Cardoni, Kiner, Brown, Levine etc.) have all proven that they can do other stuff well also.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 18, 2010)

I assume this post is talking about US TV music, yes? Others have pointed out a lot of interesting stuff (albeit some on shows that have recently finished). But there are others – what about 30 Rock? Very distinctive, very well done (and mixed very loud!) And all recorded live, I'm pretty sure. As far away from Evolve and Omni as you can get. (yes, I do know that the producer is also the composer, and that might have something to do with it!)

I think the presumption in the OP is that a certain type of show has a certain type of score. By and large the boring scores are partnered with boring shows imho. For any CSI-type show – or anything like – its just part of the landscape to have that kind of score. Are we REALLY sure that interesting shows' scores have become more boring? Or is it more likely that TV has become more boring?!


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## Hannes_F (Nov 18, 2010)

Jose, you make a orchestral vs. other styles thread of this. But this is not the question here. Non-orchestral styles can be highly appropriate and great, no question about that, and some contemporary TV shows have great music, also no problem about that.

I think what most here are referring to are those shows that are wannabe-orchestral-epic but fall terribly short (again, most possibly not because of abilities but due to the conditions). The other typical style that comes to mind is the Garageband construction kit sound. Any music that is self-assured synthetic but original is better than these two imo.


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## givemenoughrope (Nov 18, 2010)

How about True Blood? All performed by the composer. I've liked that guy's stuff since Cabin Fever. Always sounds great.

Bored to Death is good, done by the guitarist from a band called Big Lazy. Mostly surf, bossa, tango, swing, etc. 

I don't mind the synth/pad/guitar approach for TV or Film. In fact, some great synth only scores are coming out these days. I'm working for a guy right now who is great at that stuff, in the Eno/Torn vein. He doesn't have Evolve, Omnisphere or anything like that. A couple soft synths, minimal samples, guitars, found objects, some plug ins but mostly the ideas in his head. For what it is and for what he delivers, it's pretty great. He would love to use real players and does on occasion but his budgets and deadline just don't permit.

What's sad is when you can take the exposed, small ensemble concept with the music for the Walking Dead (which should be really interesting and exciting) and it still comes out as boring wallpaper sfx. 

For me, the only shows worth watching in the last few years have been The Wire and maybe Boardwalk Empire and they don't have any score.

How about we name tv shows from any era that are somewhat worth watching which happened had great music since I can only think of one right now....

1) Twilight Zone


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## Ashermusic (Nov 18, 2010)

givemenoughrope @ Thu Nov 18 said:


> How about True Blood? All performed by the composer. I've liked that guy's stuff since Cabin Fever. Always sounds great.
> 
> Bored to Death is good, done by the guitarist from a band called Big Lazy. Mostly surf, bossa, tango, swing, etc.
> 
> ...



I think both as a show and score "24" fits that category of being really good in any era. And for a comedy, "Desperate Housewives" although it is lost a little of its sharpness the last couple of years perhaps.


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## Ed (Nov 19, 2010)

Come on Bear McCreary is god.


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## Mike Greene (Nov 19, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Thu Nov 18 said:


> I think what most here are referring to are those shows that are wannabe-orchestral-epic but fall terribly short (again, most possibly not because of abilities but due to the conditions). The other typical style that comes to mind is the Garageband construction kit sound.


I have to wonder what shows these would be? I contend that the vast majority of Network primetime shows don't fall into either of those two categories. None that I can think of do.

It's really, really, reeeeeally hard to get a gig scoring a primetime drama. Producers can pick and choose who they want and the talent pool is not made up of hacks (with a few exceptions, mostly on the comedy side of things, but those guys don't really get hired anymore.) So I'd be pretty surprised to hear anything cheesy. Granted, I'm pretty selective about which shows I watch, but I imagine even the shows that don't interest me still make a good effort with their music.


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## José Herring (Nov 19, 2010)

Mike Greene @ Fri Nov 19 said:


> Hannes_F @ Thu Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I think what most here are referring to are those shows that are wannabe-orchestral-epic but fall terribly short (again, most possibly not because of abilities but due to the conditions). The other typical style that comes to mind is the Garageband construction kit sound.
> ...



I agree. I think what's really going on here is a lack of appreciation and understanding for what it really takes to do a non orchestral score. It's not easy. So as I see it those who think that it's just a couple of libraries thrown together and that the composers are just "Button pushers" really don't have a true grasp of what it is that's going on in these scores.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 19, 2010)

josejherring @ Fri Nov 19 said:


> Mike Greene @ Fri Nov 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Hannes_F @ Thu Nov 18 said:
> ...



True. It is always easy to assume that what you do is harder and that you could easily do what they do.

Back when I was at Boston Conservatory, many of the jazz guys at Berklee would put down rock and roll as watered down stuff that any jazz player could do easily. Then I would play with them and they would play really awful rock and roll that showed no feel for or understanding of the genre.

If you visit my website, in the Electronic section you will find 3 cues named "Ominous", "On The Job" and "Man With A Mission." They are all orchestral/synth hybrid stuff for a show I did not get. Trust me, I worked much harder doing them than some more traditional stuff, hardly "just pushing buttons."


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 19, 2010)

Ed @ Fri Nov 19 said:


> Come on Bear McCreary is god.



SECONDED. The music to Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles was literally the best TV scoring I've heard in a long time. Emotional, dramatic, thematic, and his action scoring is unparalleled. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX8PPaoYwLk

He also had very interesting ways of scoring some scenes. Take this song for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CC2skFN ... re=related

This was used for the intro scene of Season 2. VERY powerful stuff when combined with the visuals.


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## KingIdiot (Nov 19, 2010)

Really? No one caught the new Human Target theme?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oilZ-E1KzA

This vid has the new one, and then the old one that McCreary did.

It's actually pretty unbelievable to me that they dropped McCreary's opening music. I get that they're trying to "lighten" the show up a little, but wow... 

Maybe it was a legal issue, but I'm just floored at how lame it is.

I'm not sure if Tim Jones did the new title music. (after listening again it definitely sounds like him though, with those portamento strings all over

I love Tim Jones' stuff in Chuck. I have to believe that it was a producer/suit decision to go with this cue, and he had to have had much better offerings. I have to.... Sorry Tim... I just believe you're way more talented that this.


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## ChrisAxia (Nov 19, 2010)

Oh man, I can't believe they did that to the Human Target theme! One of the best scored series IMHO along with "House MD". 

~Chris


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## Ian Dorsch (Nov 19, 2010)

I like Bear's Human Target theme a lot, and I'm not crazy about the new one, but I can definitely see why they made the switch. Never having heard either version before watching that clip, I think the style of the new theme fits the vibe of the visuals much better, even if the execution might not be to my taste.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 19, 2010)

Can't believe I forgot House! Always nicely done.

Don't wish to be too presumptuous, but I think a lot of us don't buy the premise of this thread...


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## KingIdiot (Nov 19, 2010)

I totally agree with you guys. I think McCreary's was definitely a bit "high brow" sounding, and it needed to be updated a bit to fit the vibe. The new one isn't better though, and the production is so atrocious that it is still the lesser of the two.

I don't like the show anyway, so it shouldn't matter so much to me. I think I was just amazed at how bad the new one was. Maybe I'm taking it personally since I've spent so much time learning how NOT to sound like that.


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## José Herring (Nov 19, 2010)

[quote:4fea2a5849="KingIdiot @ Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:41 pm"]I totally agree with you guys. I think McCreary's was definitely a bit "high brow" sounding, and it needed to be updated a bit to fit the vibe. The new one isn't better though, and the production is so atrocious that it iò  /   ÝK,  /   ÝKp  /   ÝLº  /   ÝM  /   ÝM•  /   ÝM³  /   ÝQC  /   ÝQS  /   ÝR…  /   ÝR´  /   ÝUä  /   ÝV  /   ÝZ•  /   ÝZ³  /   Ý[£  /   Ý[É  /   ÝaO  /   ÝaÆ  /   Ýf>  /   Ýfx  /   Ý”‡  /   Ý”–  /   Ý¨ø  /   Ý©~  /   Ý­t  /   Ý­  /   Ý®  /   Ý®p  /   Ý¯@  /   Ý¯}  /   Ý±v  /   Ý±·  /   ÝµÂ  /   Ý¶  /   Ý¶‡  /   Ý¶¦  /   Ý·9  /   Ý·Y  /   Ý·‹  /   Ý·¦  /   Ý¿î  /   ÝÀ  /   ÝÀ'  /   ÝÀ/  /   ÝÄÁ  /   ÝÇ  /   ÝÇ'  /   ÝÇU  /   ÝÇ|  /   ÝÑÎ  /   ÝÒ  /   ÝÓ  /   ÝÓ,  /   ÝÕ  /   ÝÕ  /   ÝÕõ  /   ÝÖ  /   ÝÖz  /   ÝÖü  /   Ý×®  /   ÝØ=  /   ÝéÇ  /   Ýéý  /   Ýóù


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## Ed (Nov 19, 2010)

josejherring @ Fri Nov 19 said:


> What's even more utterly shocking is that the second theme was even accepted. Kind of like they thought nobody could do any better. It's almost like the producers were too lazy to do a proper search and they hired some remixer, because, "that's what the kids are listening to these days".



Sometimes execs make stupid creative decisions, such as...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPn-lTytfGo


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## José Herring (Nov 19, 2010)

Ed @ Fri Nov 19 said:


> josejherring @ Fri Nov 19 said:
> 
> 
> > What's even more utterly shocking is that the second theme was even accepted. Kind of like they thought nobody could do any better. It's almost like the producers were too lazy to do a proper search and they hired some remixer, because, "that's what the kids are listening to these days".
> ...



OH, GOD!!! You had to remind me. Memories can be so painful. Luckily there was such an outcry over that song that the producers came to there senses, but not fast enough imo.

Jose


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## lux (Nov 20, 2010)

at least there was Jolene Blalock...


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## lux (Nov 20, 2010)

well seriously speaking pop songs as intro have been the norm for decades. Star Trek obviously had a different tradition, but all in all its a classic '80ish choice for an intro, but not much of a scandal imo. I for one see better a pop song in place of a pushed button intro.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 20, 2010)

lux @ Sat Nov 20 said:


> well seriously speaking pop songs as intro have been the norm for decades. Star Trek obviously had a different tradition, but all in all its a classic '80ish choice for an intro, but not much of a scandal imo. I for one see better a pop song in place of a pushed button intro.



Pop songs can work or be crass (and good Lord, that Star Trek example is as perfect as you could wish for in that camp), a single note can be lazy or inspired. I never, ever tired of the "theme" to Lost - an F# from Atmosphere and an added tinkle.

Less can be more.


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## lux (Nov 20, 2010)

not a matter of less or more. Its just that sometimes a cheesy pop song works better than the sliced diarrhea. I'm not saying that his is the right example, just pointing out that having a pop song and not a cinematic anthem is not a reason for a scandal.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 20, 2010)

lux @ Sat Nov 20 said:


> not a matter of less or more. Its just that sometimes a cheesy pop song works better than the sliced diarrhea. I'm not saying that his is the right example, just pointing out that having a pop song and not a cinematic anthem is not a reason for a scandal.



I'd agree there. I'm not really a Trekkie - I've watched and liked some of the movies and used to see the original TV series as a kid - but I did find this as incongruous as a fish on the proverbial bicycle.

Not wanting to be too fussy, but neither a cheesy pop song or sliced diarrhoea sò  <   Èn`  <   Èn“  <   ÈŽN  <   ÈŽl  <   È“  <   È“'  <


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## Ed (Nov 21, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYwpt092O7U

TV Scores can and have been better than most Movie soundtracks. 

I disagree with the premise of the OP.


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## MichaelL (Nov 21, 2010)

[quote="
Point well taken.

I assume that you're pretty intelligent or you wouldn't gravitate towards orchestral music. I think that we as intelligent people try to make things too complicated. I ran into some problems with my orchestral works a while back where I wasn't satisfied with the results anymore. Partly due to my limitations in working with samples, but that wasn't the only thing.

So as a side study a few months ago I started to really study the works of the "master" composers that I thought were really effective. Since I'm concerned with gaining a broad public audience for my work I limited myself to "classical" pieces and composers that have a broad public appeal.

What I found was how utterly simplistic the works are but that each note and each part had a function contributing to the overall whole. There wasn't stuff just thrown in for the sake of technological sophistication. 

I haven't fully formulated my theories yet. I'm about to embark on a set of originally composed works as kind of etudes to test some hypothesis I have. Kind of pure technique exercises without any particular meaning beyond the music itself. Should prove interesting.

As a precursor the kind of theories I want to test are using relatively simple harmonies yet making the parts really interesting or virtuosic like Mozart or John Williams or John Adams. And, using music that is complicated in terms of harmony and rhythm but making the parts relatively simple like Bernard Hermann or Stravinsky. The ideas or theories I'm trying to move away from involve writing ridiculously hard parts governed by extremely sophisticated theoretical devices kind of like Schoenberg or Mahler (not that I don't love Mahler. I do. I wish there were more of an audience for his work :? .)[/quote]


I've been reading this thread and the lengthy "commercial composition thread" that wandered off. 

Please feel free to take my opinion with a grain of salt. I do not live in LA and I do not write for major films or television shows. But in reading Jose's post the answer sticks out like a neon light. 

Composers, especially the highly trained, classical and jazz oriented, simply do not understand the mind of the audience. You are so over-thinking the process. I am not saying that it is a good thing to dumb down our skills. But good Lord, look at the audience, and look at our culture. The public can relate more to the guy who taught himself a few guitar chords and can assimilate the grittier sounds of the street
than someone who spent years at Juilliard. They can identify with that composer, because it is a reflection of the universal experience of almost every teenager. There far more kids playing guitars in garages than pianos in conservatories.

I've had this discussion before with Jay, and I know that Mike Verta is advocating for better musical chops all around, but the bean counters are making the decisions, and they want what costs the least, and what the average 18-34 year old viewer thinks is cool.

I just went to a film festival where 91-year old Marge Champion was the guest of honor. One audience member asked her if she watches "Dancing with the Stars."
She laughed and said "No!.. that's not dancing, and none of the professionals that 
I know think that's dancing."

I think the analogy is clear. It doesn't really matter if people who know dancing think that it's dancing. What matters is that Joe or Josephine the tv watcher thinks it's dancing. So, sadly, to the bean counters, and a large chunk of the mainstream audience, it doesn't really matter that the music is boring, or only made up of a few chords, or lacks melody, to them it's music and they are responding to it. 

In a larger sense it may reflect the growing discord between those consider "elite" and those considered average in our society. In case you haven't noticed, and perhaps to our detriment, "elite" has become a bad word. 

Perhaps a rising tide lifts all boats, and if we strive for the highest standards we will elevate our culture. On the other hand, we may be viewed as out of touch and out of work.

A critic of my music once said that I was "too smart for my own good." So yes, Jose, "we intelligent people try to make things too complicated." Perhaps we have an artificial sense that complicated is better. But, if nobody is listening then we are only talking to ourselves.

I think the definition of bad music, at least in the buyers' ears, is far different from the definition of bad music in the composers ears. 

My 2 cents from outside the bubble.

Cheers,

Michael


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## Ashermusic (Nov 21, 2010)

Michael, you make some good points but:

1Guys like Mike and myself did not train and learn what we have learned strictly because it would help us make more money. Very frankly, at various times in my career I could have joined my parent's flourishing antique business or worked for my uncle in the clothing business and made more money.

We did it because early on we became emotionally committed to learning to be good at what we do.

And it is not an intellectual exercise alone. The audience is manipulated by music in films and TV shows in ways that they do not consciously think about. They may see a scene that is scored (and I use the term loosely) with a song they like and think "Oh cool, I like that song" but there is a good chance that if it were properly scored they would have a more emotional reaction without even realizing it.

I came up playing in rock and roll bands so I know the joy of playing and singing a 3 chord song like "Gloria" so it is not about "elitism". It is about craft, and whether the producers care or not or the audience consciously cares or not, WE should care because otherwise there is no future for the profession other than a bunch of mal-trained 17 year olds getting paid $1,000 for a loop and song-based score.


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## Mike Greene (Nov 21, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Nov 21 said:


> Guys like Mike and myself did not train and learn what we have learned strictly because it would help us make more money.


Nah, that's wrong. I'm only in it for the money. And the chicks.

Speaking of which, where _is_ all the money I was expecting to make??? And where are the chicks???


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## dcoscina (Nov 21, 2010)

I think there's been a lot of quality TV scores. I prefer Michael Giacchino's LOST and ALIAS stuff to his big film scores. Chris Lennertz's Supernatural has some great moments and I'm not sure who's scoring Smallville these days but it sounds like the director is letting the composer have a field day with it. It's pretty audacious!


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## MichaelL (Nov 21, 2010)

Hi Jay,

I just read through this thread 
http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... ab522f23bd

If you recall, it is a long, but not unrelated, discussion about the opinions of academics and common man. 

I grew up in the film business, but way down the food chain in the documentary, educational, industrial world. On breaks, or driving to location, the director, crew, cinematographer etc, would discuss films past and present academically. When it came time to work, they all knew they weren't making Citizen Kane, and did their jobs.

I have a lot respect for guys like Mike Verta,he has wonderful orchestration skills and is very passionate about what he does. Sometimes, I differ with his views. I infer from the aforementioned thread that he previously had issue with John Debney.
John's music is different than Mike's, I'm not going to place a value judgment on that. Music has evolved and I accept that. Mike's more traditional "European" approach, like the old masters -- Korngold, Steiner, Herrman is great. But...I find nothing wrong with the hybrid approach in Debney's work and in John Graham's work. I listen to and enjoy both approaches equally. I don't think that straying from the historical approach is the end of civilization.

That said, television shows CSI, Bones, House etc, are not the equivalent in scope of time, budget, content to films, old or new. They are entertainment for the masses.
So, I guess my question for the OP would be, why are you looking for academic standards in that environment? Boring is a subjective standard, perhaps based upon your expectations that in order to be interesting the music should develop in a certain way. 

I think that as cultural influences have evolved, so has the music. Young adults have grown up playing video games. They've grown up in the era of epic trailer music. As a result, I think that the hybrid approach is going to be what speaks to this audience.
It's more of a visceral than cerebral experience. 

Blame it on Extreme Doritos, blame it in McDonalds. People don't speak in whole sentences, let a lone whole words anymore -- they tweet. Thus, IMHO, how do you expect them to have the attention span and sensitivity to appreciate complex music?

OK, I've ranted enough. I've got to finish reading Jay's book if I'm ever going to figure out Logic.

Cheers,

Michael


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## Ashermusic (Nov 21, 2010)

MichaelL @ Sun Nov 21 said:


> Hi Jay,
> 
> I just read through this thread
> http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... ab522f23bd
> ...



Hey, I LOVE hybrid music. Creating hybrid music for a series or a film is a lot different than simply plugging in an on the nose song.

Anyway, I am not talking about their intellectually understanding complex music. They do not have to for the music to work on them emotionally if the composer has done his job well.


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## MichaelL (Nov 21, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Nov 21 said:


> It is about craft, and whether the producers care or not or the audience consciously cares or not, WE should care because otherwise there is no future for the profession other than a bunch of mal-trained 17 year olds getting paid $1,000 for a loop and song-based score.



Hey Jay --I agree. I was addressing the original poster who asked why TV music is so boring. The short answer is because it's being created in the environment that you describe above. 

My reference to Extreme Doritos/McDonalds asks by analogy whether or not our culture has, let's say changed to a point that it responds to the "low brow" approach more so than the high brow? 

I'm fully aware of the emotional impact of music, and that the audience doesn't need to understand it academically to respond. But just as language changes, as a reflection of culture, and the pace of society, might not the perception of music change? My question is whether the public consciousness has devolved to the point
where the audience will respond equally or more so to the loop and song-based 
scoring than to artistry at Mike Verta's level. 

Again, I'm not arguing then against high standards, I'm simply stating that the scenario you describe is likely a product of 1) our culture, and 2) the economic forces that are indifferent to craft.

Michael


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