# Nerdgasm of the century



## choc0thrax (Feb 10, 2011)

http://www.slashfilm.com/clint-mansell- ... -effect-3/

Maybe no one else cares but to me this is a combination of stuff I like very much!


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## Ian Dorsch (Feb 10, 2011)

Yeah, this is awesome news. Nice to see Bioware ponying up to hire someone as awesome as Clint.


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## Farkle (Feb 10, 2011)

midphase @ Thu Feb 10 said:


> Why do they keep changing composers? Seriously...what was wrong with the guys from the first two games?



Yeah, as a guy who puts a lot of time and thought into writing video game music, I'm a bit disappointed by Bioware's decision. Games are becoming more narrative, true, but Bioware passing over Jack Wall and Wall of Sound seems like a very nonsensical decision to me. 

By and large, when linear media composers do a game score, the end result is often very forgettable. It's a very specific skill set to craft an adaptive score that supports the gameplay and the narrative. Applying linear media strategies to game scores often results in a somewhat clumsy and ineffective result.

I'm trying to not be pretentious, I'm trying to explain how I perceive the difference between game scoring and film/tv scoring. 

It's also a trend we're seeing in the games industry that the game companies are being courted by Hollywood more and more, as the game industry is growing in leaps and bounds. THQ is making their Homefront game into a book series, and a TV show, etc. So, it's frustrating to see another industry come over, and try to instantly "be one" with the games industry. There's a lot of differences in the way the products are envisioned, and created.

Sorry, this may have come out as a mini-rant. I do respect Clint's music and composition, but film music is not game music, and writing film music is not the same as writing game music.

Plus, I'm friends with two of the Mass Effect composers, so I'm pissed that they lost their gig. 

Mike


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## Farkle (Feb 10, 2011)

Ian Dorsch @ Thu Feb 10 said:


> On the other hand, Garry Schyman's scores for the Bioshock games and Dante's Inferno are some of the best game scores in recent years, and the dude wrote two out of the six scores that are up for the 2011 GANG Award for Music of the Year. So, you know, not all composers of linear media blow it when they blunder into game audio.
> 
> If Bioware did indeed pull the rug out from underneath Jack and his team, that really sucks and I'm sorry to hear about it. I'm friends with a couple of those guys as well, and they're all good, talented people.
> 
> Clint Mansell _is_ awesome, though.



Lol, Good call, Ian! Yes, Garry's music for the Bioshocks were amazing! I'm really impressed with how Garry can make a game's score fit the gameplay, and the story, so well. Neal Acree is another example, he did a great job for Stargate: Atlantis, and also for the Starcraft games.

So maybe it's TV composers that can transition to game scores, eh? =o 



You are right, many composers can make the transition; if they work with the audio director, the producer, etc. 

And yeah, it's just frustrating to see a talented team like Wall of Sound get the boot. Plus, (and this is TOTALLY personal), I left film and TV 4 years ago to build my career in video game music. I'm _finally_ getting to the point where I'm about to pitch for real games, with real budgets, and now all the TV and film guys are going to snap it up!!! :evil: 

Argh. 

Mike


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## midphase (Feb 10, 2011)

How do you guy feel about composers wanting to step into the gaming arena who have no real interest in the actual medium as a form of personal entertainment?

I remember being more than a bit dismayed at Laura Carpman's not-so-subtle snobbery of actually playing games when discussing her composition work for Sony's EverQuest. It would be literally as if I was scoring films but I publicly said that "I'd never waste my time watching a movie."

I feel that there are quite a number of movie composers merging into the videogame market just to make a buck but who otherwise really don't understand nor care about the medium that they're composing for.


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## Ian Dorsch (Feb 10, 2011)

Mike, I hear you brother! :lol:



> How do you guy feel about composers wanting to step into the gaming arena who have no real interest in the actual medium as a form of personal entertainment?



Mostly, I think the consensus among developers is that people who don't play games don't understand how to write good game music, and I think that's been borne out by the very small number of non-gaming composers that have done high profile work over the last 5-10 years.


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## Farkle (Feb 10, 2011)

Ian Dorsch @ Thu Feb 10 said:


> Mike, I hear you brother! :lol:


 =o 

Ahhh, thanks, Ian!

Okay, Ian, it's official! I'm buying you first round at GDC in 3 weeks. You're going, right?

Mike


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## Farkle (Feb 10, 2011)

midphase @ Thu Feb 10 said:


> How do you guy feel about composers wanting to step into the gaming arena who have no real interest in the actual medium as a form of personal entertainment?
> 
> I remember being more than a bit dismayed at Laura Carpman's not-so-subtle snobbery of actually playing games when discussing her composition work for Sony's EverQuest. It would be literally as if I was scoring films but I publicly said that "I'd never waste my time watching a movie."
> 
> I feel that there are quite a number of movie composers merging into the videogame market just to make a buck but who otherwise really don't understand nor care about the medium that they're composing for.



Hi, Kays!

Yeah, I feel the exact dismay that you did. I think that it's really uncool to want to step in and score games just because "it's a quick buck, and it's easy", and who have no interest in actually playing games.

I loved scoring for TV, I would do it again in a heartbeat. But, I would only pitch for the TV I watch and love; because that's the concepts that I know really well.

I get really annoyed when a composer composes for games, and then says, "well, I would never PLAY games". It feels a bit insulting to me, because I personally love the thought and craft and creativity that goes into making a great game. It's an art and a science, just as much as a film is an art and a science.

The art of the psychology of play, of gameplay balance, risk-reward management, that's really cool stuff! And, the people designing and coding games are some of the smartest people I've ever met. AND, the thought that can go into truly scoring interactively is a great creative challenge!

So, my thought is, (If a composer says what Laura Karpman says), my thought is, "Why would you hire a composer who self-admittedly doesn't care for your industry, and your company's product? Why wouldn't you find a similarly talented composer who respects and loves your industry and the games that your industry creates?"

I'm starting a studio this year (Not Space Whale, it's more exciting), and I know that I would not want anyone on my team who didn't love my industry, and products in the industry.

I'm not saying you have to love ALL games; I'm not a fan of driving games, or fighting games. But, I don't pitch for those games. The games I love, those are the games I pitch for. 

Whew! That was a big ramble. Kays, I hope this makes sense; and, I'm enjoying this discussion! As I said, I have a special place in my heart for video game composer, just as I do for TV composers. Wanna make sure both are recognized for their unique solutions to scoring challenges. 

Mike


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## Ian Dorsch (Feb 10, 2011)

Farkle @ Thu Feb 10 said:


> Okay, Ian, it's official! I'm buying you first round at GDC in 3 weeks. You're going, right?



Man, I wish I was. :(

I was planning on it, but then we had to replace my wife's car out of the blue, so that kind of punched a hole in that plan. :lol:

I'll be there next year for sure, and I'll pick up the 2nd round.


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## midphase (Feb 10, 2011)

"Why would you hire a composer who self-admittedly doesn't care for your industry, and your company's product? Why wouldn't you find a similarly talented composer who respects and loves your industry and the games that your industry creates?"


Because (forgive my Portughese) many game developers seem to be starfuckers. And this piece of news about Clint Mansell grabbing this franchise over Jeremy Soule and Jack Wall speaks volumes on how many game developers are just as bad as any other industry at falling for the big credits.

Now, I don't know if Clint plays games...for all I know he's fierce on Call of Duty and WoW...but I am beginning to see more and more high profile film composers get the gig over seasoned videogame composers, and my guess is not because the likes of Elfman and Zimmer are huge gamers.

When you have some of the major composer talent agencies getting into the "game" by creating departments focused exclusively on interactive work, you have to surmise that they're following the money trail.


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## Farkle (Feb 10, 2011)

Hi, Kays!

No apologies for your portuguese, and I think you are right, I think many game devs get starry-eyed when big time Hollywood talent comes at them. There are exceptions (Ken Levine famously stated that he wouldn't want to work with cinematic directors), but for a studio like Bioware, it's a real ego stroke and statement of legitimacy to have a large Hollywood talent come to them.

Which brings me to my point, which you stated, Kays. The money's in AAA games right now; the budgets are huge, and the right companies that prioritize audio and music can put some good money at a composer. And, we are in a business, after all. 

So, maybe I should just get off my creative "high horse", recognize that the competition just got fiercer, and go back and make my sound more awesome and compelling. 

But, first... I'm going to play Star Wars with my daughter! 

Mike


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## wesbender (Feb 10, 2011)

Nothing against Clint, but I'm a huge fan of the series and absolutely love the music in the first two games, so I find this a bit baffling to be honest.

Perhaps Jack Wall and co. decided against returning, but considering it's probably going to be the biggest game of the year, I highly doubt that. Sounds like Bioware just wanted a higher-profile name on the project, which is a shame.


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## Marius Masalar (Feb 10, 2011)

Here's an opinion out of left field...I wasn't terribly fond of the first two games' scores. I thought they were effective and well put together with some truly brilliant moments, but my overall impression of them was rather "meh" outside the games. That was musically speaking though. As game scores go, they were clearly expertly assembled.

That being said, I am extremely skeptical of this Clint Mansell news. Not knowing the circumstances regarding the departure of the other fine gentlemen, I'm just thinking of it from a purely musical perspective. I find Clint's music to be a bit overhyped, personally. It's very specifically his own style and I have the utmost respect for what he does, but I question whether or not he was the best choice for *this project*. I should say by the way that I'm sure he'll do a great job, but here's the thing...

I'm trying to think from Bioware's perspective. If I had to change from the old team (for whatever reason) and had enough money lying around for the music budget to hire someone of Mansell's calibre...I'd hire James Hannigan and get him a great orchestra to work with (for instance). Someone with heaps of experience making game scores that are memorable, sophisticated, and well implemented in the game. My example even has experience in this genre (Freelancer and even C&C could be considered relevant).

Anyway, I suspect they wanted some more marketable talent on board and Mansell probably provided some great demo material or something like that. I look forward to the result either way, but if it had been up to me I would have liked to see them direct that budget either at someone with a lot of experience making great game scores, or someone with less (who therefore has more to prove and can be counted on to do a stellar job tying up the series).

Great discussion here though. Just tossing my two cents in.


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## Lunatique (Feb 23, 2011)

It seems you guys are automatically assuming Clint understands nothing about games and adaptive scoring, but it was clearly mentioned in that interview that he understands the concept. Also, Clint's past background as part of a cutting-edge industrial outfit (Pop Will Eat Itself) and his ability to jump between orchestral and electronic styles, seems to be enough evidence for me that he can do the job. 

As for why he was hired, that is anybody's guess, and we can't just assume that Bioware/EA are starfucking in this particular case.

With that said, it's true that it's annoying when a film/TV composer wants a piece of the video game pie simply for the money, but knows absolutely nothing about video games. It's very insulting when composer contact me because they had seen past posts I made looking for composers for the games I was working on, even though they know nothing about games and have no interest in them. What's worse, is when they ask me for advice about how to get gigs composing for games, even though they don't play games and know nothing about the industry. 

As someone who worked at high levels in the video game industry (studio art director for a game publisher/developer), I can tell you that video game people hate that shit. It's insulting as hell. 

If you have never scored a game before, then at least try to score a MOD for God's sake. Show some f-cking interest in the medium you want to compose music for.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 26, 2011)

Lunatique @ Wed Feb 23 said:


> With that said, it's true that it's annoying when a film/TV composer wants a piece of the video game pie simply for the money



Really? So all the people in my former industry (music for advertising) who did it for the money so they could pursue other interests whilst keeping body and soul together and feeding their families were being...insulting-to advertising? Hmm.

Damn. Carpetbaggers are ruining things for the true believers (and gamers). :wink:


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## Lunatique (Feb 26, 2011)

Well, it's really not that hard to understand. What I'm talking about--it's sort of like if some concert composer or rockstar started going around the film industry asking people how he could get into scoring films, and when asked, simply says that he doesn't know a thing about films or give a shit--he just wants a piece of that money pie. It would not be surprising if the film composers, directors, writers, actors...etc feel insulted by that. That's exactly what's happening--when composers don't know a thing about video games and don't give a f-ck about that industry, decided to get in on the action simply because they want a piece of the money pie. It's also insulting because video games is the newest kid on the block in the arts/entertainment world, and so many people have looked down on the medium, but now it's making bank, everyone wants a piece of the pie, regardless if they care about the medium or not.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 26, 2011)

Lunatique @ Sat Feb 26 said:


> Well, it's really not that hard to understand. What I'm talking about--it's sort of like if some concert composer or rockstar started going around the film industry asking people how he could get into scoring films, and when asked, simply says that he doesn't know a thing about films or give a [email protected]#t--he just wants a piece of that money pie. It would not be surprising if the film composers, directors, writers, actors...etc feel insulted by that. That's exactly what's happening--when composers don't know a thing about film and don't give a f-ck about that industry, decided to get in on the action simply because they want a piece of the money pie. It's also insulting because video games is the newest kid on the block in the arts/entertainment world, and so many people have looked down on the medium, but now it's making bank, everyone wants a piece of the pie.



You say tomato. I say business as usual.

Being polite is usually good business. If it's the rudeness involved that insults you, I guess i can understand that. If it's people crossing genres to make money that insults you, well-I don't mean this offensively, but you must feel insulted pretty often.


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## Lunatique (Feb 26, 2011)

It's not the genre/industry crossing that bugs me. It's the fact that some of the composers who contacted me knew absolutely nothing about video games, don't play games, and didn't bother to do any homework about the game industry. If they at least did some homework or at least tried to play a few games just to understand how music is used in games, then I wouldn't be as annoyed. What it is, is their lack of respect or interest for the creative medium that they want to make money from. 

For myself personally, that's not something I would do. If I were to get involved in an industry that's foreign to me, I would at least do some homework and learn about the industry, instead of just going unprepared and expect someone to give me a job where I'm supposed to have a creative voice in the development of the project. That is just unprofessional and shows a lack of work ethic.

You mentioned commercials. So let's say this composers goes around knocking doors at ad agencies, asking for a job composing music for commercials. So the people in charge ask him, "Have you worked on commercials before?" 

"Nope."

"Do you have some examples of favorite commercials you've seen?"

"Nope."

"Have you seen any commercials?"

"Nope"

"Do you understand anything about commercials?"

"Nope, and don't really care either. I just want to make money."

Tell me that won't seem insulting to everyone he contacts.


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## Ian Dorsch (Feb 26, 2011)

Maybe this is an unfair generalization, but my sense is that most musicians in advertising would rather be writing for film, tv, games, or laying down some filthy grooves in a club somewhere. I don't know of anyone who got into writing for advertising because they were really passionate about music for advertising. Not that those people don't exist, but I haven't met any in my (admittedly limited) travels.

On the other hand, game developers as a general rule are deeply passionate about making games. It is not just a gig to them--many of them could be making better money and working fewer hours in other areas of the software industry, but they choose to do this because they love it. Combine that with the highly insular nature of the game industry, and you end up with a real tightrope to walk if you don't care about games but want to write music for them. On one level you're showing that you're unfamiliar with the medium, but more importantly, you're basically telling the people in a position to hire you that you think the thing to which they have dedicated their lives is a waste of time. That generally doesn't go over well.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 26, 2011)

Lunatique @ Sat Feb 26 said:


> For myself personally, that's not something I would do. If I were to get involved in an industry that's foreign to me, I would at least do some homework and learn about the industry, instead of just going unprepared and expect someone to give me a job where I'm supposed to have a creative voice in the development of the project. That is just unprofessional and shows a lack of work ethic.
> 
> You mentioned commercials. So let's say this composers goes around knocking doors at ad agencies, asking for a job composing music for commercials. So the people in charge ask him, "Have you worked on commercials before?"
> 
> ...



I understand your point. I wouldn't do that either, because I think it's counterproductive and rude. I might not be disposed to help someone get a job if they showed a bad attitude from the beginning. However, I think the disconnect between us is partly a matter of semantics-either that, or a stylistic difference . I'd probably be a little amused and politely dismissive or disengaged. I wouldn't be 'insulted'.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 26, 2011)

Ian Dorsch @ Sat Feb 26 said:


> Maybe this is an unfair generalization, but my sense is that most musicians in advertising would rather be writing for film, tv, games, or laying down some filthy grooves in a club somewhere. I don't know of anyone who got into writing for advertising because they were really passionate about music for advertising. Not that those people don't exist, but I haven't met any in my (admittedly limited) travels.
> 
> On the other hand, game developers as a general rule are deeply passionate about making games. It is not just a gig to them--many of them could be making better money and working fewer hours in other areas of the software industry, but they choose to do this because they love it. Combine that with the highly insular nature of the game industry, and you end up with a real tightrope to walk if you don't care about games but want to write music for them. On one level you're showing that you're unfamiliar with the medium, but more importantly, you're basically telling the people in a position to hire you that you think the thing to which they have dedicated their lives is a waste of time. That generally doesn't go over well.



Nah, it's one of those rare fair generalizations.  I was in it for a few reasons:my career arc in New York led me there, I was awed by the money having come out of playing clubs, and it actually was fun hiring the best studio and jazz musicians in New York and writing something different every week. The music served some crappy purposes, but it was a different style every week, which was great. Compared to playing the same music every night in a pit band, it was a no brainer.

I really don't know anything about the game industry,nor am i pretending to-however, I would have to agree that it sounds pretty insular. If every composer working in games is passionate about it, well, that's interesting to me, and seems a little odd. I'd think many MIGHT be interested in writing for film instead? Perhaps I'm way off base.


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## wst3 (Feb 26, 2011)

Ian Dorsch @ Sat Feb 26 said:


> Maybe this is an unfair generalization, but my sense is that most musicians in advertising would rather be writing for film, tv, games, or laying down some filthy grooves in a club somewhere. I don't know of anyone who got into writing for advertising because they were really passionate about music for advertising. Not that those people don't exist, but I haven't met any in my (admittedly limited) travels.



Interesting observation, and maybe it's just because I'm an old fart, but I've met many composers that were genuinely interested in writing for advertising. Generally they were focused on jingles, but that was the majority of advertising music once upon a time.

I would agree that today there is no where near the interest, I think that several things have conspired to get us to this point:

1) as far back as the mid 1980s it became common practice (not legal practice) to just grab a track from the old library and play it behind the voice-over. Most stations offered this as an option to local advertisers to cut the cost... "pay for the airtime and we'll give you a finished production for free!"

2) the legal use of popular music for advertising has been on the increase for several years now. It's darned difficult to write a great hook, and I don't know which came first, but today it seems most advertisers are more willing to bet the farm on people recognizing a pop tune as opposed to recognizing a clever jingle.

3) rates for music for advertising have taken a real hit over the last ten years or so. I'm not sure if that is driven by the lack of interest, on the part of advertisers or their agencies, or if it is part of the whole cost reduction for a lot of creative work. (To be complete, graphic designers are suffering from the same depressed - and depressing - rates.)

4) did I mention that it is difficult to write a really great jingle?

5) many of the really good jingle composers have reached a point where they can retire comfortably, or they just plain got old<G>!

But once upon a time there was a passion for this sort of work. I still find it fascinating, but at the local/regional level I think it would be about as profitable as operating a studio for hire<G>!

As far as the OP goes, I think it shows a certain crassness, or just plain unhealthy level of greed, to take on a new genre just for the money. Sadly, that seems to be what we are teaching our youth today.

In the 1960s Detroit was run by car guys. In the 1970s computer companies were run by geeks. And so on.

At some point Wall Street became more important than cars or computers, and CEOs became interchangable - a soda pop guy could run a computer company, marketing was marketing, and catering to Wall Street was the top priority.

So why would we be surprised to see a film composer grabbing a high profile game gig? It isn't about following your passion, it's all about following the money.

And to be fair, if I had the clout I'd probably take advantage of it because in these uncertain times it would provide a level of security for my family. While it is easy to throw stones, it may be that some folks are feeling sufficiently insecure in their current career paths that looking at different genres makes sense for them, whether or not they have the same passion or even interest in that new genre.


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## Lunatique (Feb 26, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Sat Feb 26 said:


> I really don't know anything about the game industry,nor am i pretending to-however, I would have to agree that it sounds pretty insular. If every composer working in games is passionate about it, well, that's interesting to me, and seems a little odd. I'd think many MIGHT be interested in writing for film instead? Perhaps I'm way off base.



While it's true that some game composers would jump at the chance to compose for films, it's not because they don't love games--it's because they also love films, and some love films equally as much as games. It's not as if they knew nothing about films and didn't give a damn. Many gamers are also film buffs, and they likely have a DVD collection that's just as extensive as their video game collection. This is nothing like the situation being discussed, where film composers know nothing about games and didn't love the medium, but wants to get a piece of the pie just for the money.

I think this is the disconnect that you mentioned. It's really hard to understand the sentiments discussed if you're not a passionate gamer. Gamers are a strange and unique bunch, just like how film buffs or audiophiles or composers are. Games are unique because it is often maligned and misunderstood, as well as disrespected and treated like the red-headed stepchild of the arts and entertainment world. It is the only artistic/entertainment medium so closely associated with computer technology development, so it also invites a different kind of people with a different style of thinking and obsessive behavior. It is also in a strange position to both be the underdog, yet commands grudging respect due to its booming industry and reach into the culture of our daily lives. It is the youngest medium of expression we have, and it is constantly fighting for legitimacy among the older artistic mediums, so there's a sense of mission and purpose among the members of its cult. 

It's nearly impossible to explain why people involved with games are so uniquely passionate, because the love for video games is something you have to have experienced, and it must have played an important role in changing your life at some point--that transcending experience where you found you have lost your grip on reality and fell head first into the absolute bliss of an alternate reality, and you lived vicariously through the virtual life that's far more exciting than the version you lived out with your sack of meat, bones, and blood. It is the man machine interface, your being transported to another world. 

I don't know how you feel about films, but assuming you love films passionately, and you're trying to explain that love to someone who knows nothing about films--it would be equally hard to explain why the medium of film is so alluring and the people involved in it are so passionate. Same with music, literature, dance, painting, and so on.


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