# Possible PT Gamechanger



## midphase (Oct 6, 2010)

http://www.avid.com/US/products/Pro-Too ... p=AV-HP-S2

Pro Tools HD finally goes native....seems like AVID has smelled the coffee finally. The question really is...what's this puppy going to be priced at? 

Thoughts?


----------



## Brobdingnagian (Oct 6, 2010)

A real joke...a $3,495 dongle. with, get this.....drumroll.....NO INTERFACE - THAT is extra!!!

I laughed harder at this than I did at with what Sym 2 was offering for their price point!

So pleased all of these folks have a sense of humour. Although isn't April 1st or the yanks Halloween the day for jokes?

Honestly..REALLY?!?!?

Read more here:
http://www.sweetwater.com/feature/hdnative/


----------



## Mike Greene (Oct 6, 2010)

It looks to me like all that this really adds to what LE already offered is the ability to use the Digidesign (I still can't say Avid) HD interfaces. I don't think TDM plugins would work, which is sort of a biggie to me.

So unless you really love the high end Digi interfaces, is this really much different from an LE setup with whatever that option is that lets you use timecode? That's not a rhetorical question, by the way. I'm really wondering what the advantages are to this over the already existing LE options.


----------



## Frederick Russ (Oct 6, 2010)

midphase @ Wed Oct 06 said:


> http://www.avid.com/US/products/Pro-Tools-HD-native?intcmp=AV-HP-S2
> 
> Pro Tools HD finally goes native....seems like AVID has smelled the coffee finally. The question really is...what's this puppy going to be priced at?
> 
> Thoughts?



I think this is a volley shot across the bow to capture some of Apogee Symphony market with a twist: add PC adaptability - which at first seems like a good idea, but still needs a dongle to work - just not a $10k-$20k dongle "only $3495" (which is basically around the same entry price point of Apogee Symphony I/O less the card). At least that seems to be the market they're addressing. It feels like copy-cat-ism. 

Honestly I believe that Apogee has always had better converters. Basically it sounds more like a native Lite RTAS PT setup that requires an audio card to work rather than HD (a designation apparently thrown in there to inspire confidence because a true PT HD system is TDM-based which this isn't). 

I think I'll pass.


----------



## germancomponist (Oct 6, 2010)

Frederick Russ @ Wed Oct 06 said:


> midphase @ Wed Oct 06 said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.avid.com/US/products/Pro-Tools-HD-native?intcmp=AV-HP-S2
> ...



+1


----------



## José Herring (Oct 6, 2010)

Brobdingnagian @ Wed Oct 06 said:


> A real joke...a $3,495 dongle. with, get this.....drumroll.....NO INTERFACE - THAT is extra!!!
> 
> I laughed harder at this than I did at with what Sym 2 was offering for their price point!
> 
> ...



Shit. I didn't even notice the price. What are these people smoking at Avid?


----------



## windshore (Oct 6, 2010)

Well, even if you can swallow the $7k entry.... you still have PT software that isn't coded in 64 bit. I'll be really fascinated by some early adopters posts about how their performance doesn't live up to the hype.


----------



## midphase (Oct 6, 2010)

I suppose that there is always a possibility of an upcoming revision to the Digi 003 (004) interface with better converters at a price point which makes it more appealing for mid-level needs?

Ever since the new DV Toolkits have added Pro Tools HD-like functionality to their LE counterparts (albeit at a fairly steep cost compared to the other features offered by the competition) I guess the real incentive for something like this is to have access to the better quality converters of the HD hardware at a lesser cost.

I admit that I was hoping for a considerably lower price for this product, like the in $1000 range. Since the card itself has no real functionality other than allow to connect to an external PTHD interface, $4k does seem outrageous.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 6, 2010)

Mike Greene wrote:



> I'm really wondering what the advantages are to this over the already existing LE options.



It uses a PCI card and will deliver 64 I/Os. My guess is that it's latency-free like the other HD systems too.


----------



## tmhuud (Oct 6, 2010)

Zero latency. Thats what were counting on. Had an extra room that I really wanted to have this in and there it is.


----------



## midphase (Oct 6, 2010)

I do have to say that the HD Omni interface looks very slick and seems to pack a good punch. 

http://www.avid.com/US/products/HD-OMNI

I suppose that by shopping around for some good deals, a PT HD Native card and the HD Omni can probably be had within $5k...possibly even less depending on how good one's relationship is with their dealer. 

I do think that the card is extremely overpriced considering and I am quite disappointed by that. Considering that an HD Core card is only slightly more expensive, and offers TDM processing, it just doesn't add up.

There's an interesting discussion on Gearslutz about this if anyone is interested to see what they're saying (I hope Frederick won't mind me posting a link to it)

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much- ... -here.html


----------



## Mike Greene (Oct 6, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Oct 06 said:


> > I'm really wondering what the advantages are to this over the already existing LE options.
> 
> 
> It uses a PCI card and will deliver 64 I/Os. My guess is that it's latency-free like the other HD systems too.


But do many people need more than the 18 inputs that an LE system has? Even here with my HD3 Accel system, I don't think I've ever used more than 18 inputs (except if I'm transferring old 24 track 2" tapes.)

I suppose the extra outputs can be handy, but I'll bet your latency goes up in a hurry when you start getting the track count too high, especially if you have soft synths and effects involved as well. (Not to nitpick, but a TDM HD system isn't zero latency, by the way. It's 1 or 2 milliseconds.)

When this was being hinted at a few months ago, I assumed they were going to make it so they could get TDM to work natively. The fact that TDM doesn't work is not a trivial omission, because it means many TDM sessions *won't* transfer seamlessly, since not all plugins have RTAS equivalents. Phoenix, for instance, is a plugin just about everybody on PT-HD uses, but there's no RTAS (or AU or VST) version. In fact, Phoenix is one of those magic fairy dust plugins that keeps me from selling my ProTools rigs.

I guess the real selling point of this is the (hopefully) low latency. It will be interesting to see how well it performs at various track counts with effects and whatnot.


----------



## Animus (Oct 6, 2010)

germancomponist @ Wed Oct 06 said:


> Frederick Russ @ Wed Oct 06 said:
> 
> 
> > midphase @ Wed Oct 06 said:
> ...



I have it on good authority that the new Avid converters are basically Euphonix converters, which are arguably better than Apogee.


----------



## booboo (Oct 7, 2010)

I couldn't stop laughing when I clicked the link.

"Only $3495!"

And that's before you get an interface!!! Oh wait, you wanted a STEERING WHEEL with your car? huh...well that'll be $5995.
I'm still wheezing.
Avid is so adorable! I just wanna pinch their cheeks! little rascals!

At these rates, I'll just keep an mx editor on staff with his own rig! ahah.

This is definitely for people that like to buy things because they think "they're supposed to". 

I have to look for my inhaler...


----------



## Animus (Oct 7, 2010)

booboo @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> I couldn't stop laughing when I clicked the link.
> 
> "Only $3495!"
> 
> ...



Well the protools HD users will already have interfaces and the LE crowd will only have mboxes and 003s etc. If a TDM user wanted to go native cpu he could sell his core cards and by this with money left over to buy other shit.


----------



## dcoscina (Oct 7, 2010)

I thought PT is compatible with the more expensive Apogee products. If I ever win a small lottery (or score a Steven Spielberg film) I would move up to a Symphony system. As it is, I would be happy with an Ensemble if I could find one cheap. I should have bought one when I still worked for that music store. The mark up is insane on them. I could have bought one for $1100 with the employee discount....

oops, sorry, more OT. Work is boring today.


----------



## Animus (Oct 7, 2010)

dcoscina @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> I thought PT is compatible with the more expensive Apogee products. If I ever win a small lottery (or score a Steven Spielberg film) I would move up to a Symphony system. As it is, I would be happy with an Ensemble if I could find one cheap. I should have bought one when I still worked for that music store. The mark up is insane on them. I could have bought one for $1100 with the employee discount....
> 
> oops, sorry, more OT. Work is boring today.



imo Ensembles and Symphonies aren't that great. They are Apogee's bottom of the line. If you scored a Spielberg film you'd move up to Prism's and Weiss's. =o


----------



## Ashermusic (Oct 7, 2010)

Animus @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> dcoscina @ Thu Oct 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I thought PT is compatible with the more expensive Apogee products. If I ever win a small lottery (or score a Steven Spielberg film) I would move up to a Symphony system. As it is, I would be happy with an Ensemble if I could find one cheap. I should have bought one when I still worked for that music store. The mark up is insane on them. I could have bought one for $1100 with the employee discount....
> ...



The Symphony is not limited to 1 specific set of converters like the Ensemble, correct? 

And I cannot recommend the Ensemble anyway because I have had too many clients who have had trouble with it because of the driver.

Animus you would be surprised at how many mega-siuccessful composers in L.A. use less distinguished converters than Prism and Weiss.


----------



## Animus (Oct 7, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> Animus @ Thu Oct 07 said:
> 
> 
> > dcoscina @ Thu Oct 07 said:
> ...



I know! I am one of them and I use Soundblasters!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 7, 2010)

I'm sure you understand this, Mike, but the I/Os are for people mixing on large-format consoles. And also for film mixes with multiple surround stems.

I personally am prejudiced against all expensive computer slot cards, having wasted far too much money over the years every time they became obsolete. But Avid probably couldn't do the same thing reliably using FireWire, at least over a single bus. And to me this is the next logical step for Pro Tools. Frankly I'm surprised TDM has lasted as long as it has, because add-on DSP has become less and less relevant over the past few years.


----------



## midphase (Oct 7, 2010)

I guess this is the equivalent of MOTU selling a PCI-424 card for $3500 and then expecting people to still cough up another grand of so for one of their interfaces (except in this case that means another 3 or 4 grand)?

I've been itching to get into something better than the Digi002, ideally PTHD, but this is not a particularly desirable option.

For comparison:

You can always buy a used PCIx card and trade it in for a brand new PCIe core for $2600 (card $900, upgrade $1700). Add a $1400 192 off of ebay and there you are for $4K.


Alternatively, there are plenty of used complete PCI-X systems with a G5 computer on craigslist for around $3500. Would it be advantageous then to have a second system only dedicated to Pro Tools like they do at Remote Control?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 7, 2010)

Well, it's the equivalent of MOTU selling a PCI-424 card with DP for that amount.

I'm curious what's going on with the MOTU card, although they do have some latency that I'd assume this card eliminates.


----------



## Mike Greene (Oct 7, 2010)

midphase @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> You can always buy a used PCIx card and trade it in for a brand new PCIe core for $2600 (card $900, upgrade $1700). Add a $1400 192 off of ebay and there you are for $4K.


That's what I would do, although I don't think you can do it quite that cheaply. One thing to be careful of is that Digi can get pretty picky about the registrations of the original PCI card.

One other factor is that your costs aren't over yet, because you have to then buy the TDM upgrades for some of the plugins.

One more factor is that I don't think an HD1 setup would be as powerful as the HD Native card, which has two ports for converters (as opposed to the HD1 card's single port.) So you might need to go to an HD2 Accel setup to be comparable, but I'm not sure. (There's a lot of apples and oranges in the comparisons, anyway.)

I think the high expense is part of why TDM has survived so well, by the way. There's a lot of cooperation between all the involved parties. The software (plugin) companies make extra money, so they're happy to help keep the format thriving. Digi makes money, so they're happy. And even we as the TDM consumers are happy because this is one of the few remaining ways we can keep the "bozo in his parents' basement" from cutting into our business. The cards are the ultimate dongle and as long as you can afford the admission charge, you're in fairly select company and able to charge decent rates.


----------



## Dietz (Oct 7, 2010)

I'm surprised that nobody mentioned the fact that HD Native has latency compensation (well - at least within 4000 and something samples). For me, that's the most important difference to the uncompensated LE systems.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 7, 2010)

Of course, the other thing is that HD Native has latency compensation.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 7, 2010)

> If I've already paid for a pretty room and a pretty console and a pretty receptionist



No offense, Mike, but I don't find you all that pretty.


----------



## Mike Greene (Oct 7, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> > If I've already paid for a pretty room and a pretty console and a pretty receptionist
> 
> 
> 
> No offense, Mike, but I don't find you all that pretty.


So you were *lying* to me that night??? I've never felt so used.

That's a good point about the delay compensation. It's pretty useful for keeping tracks in sync, even if one has a bunch of effects that would ordinarily slow down it's playback. For me, the more reliable sync between tracks in general for PT is a pretty big deal.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 7, 2010)

Maybe I meant it at the time!


----------



## dcoscina (Oct 7, 2010)

Since MOTU, Avid and Apogee are the only Mac-based makers of PCI-e systems, does anyone use one of these three? It seems MOTU is the cheapest to get into but I wonder about the sound quality. Does anyone use one of those?


----------



## midphase (Oct 7, 2010)

AFAIK, MOTU is the bottom of the barrel when it comes to d/a a/d and overall quality of components. (well...ok...m-audio is the very bottom...but we're talking about PCI interfaces).


----------



## gsilbers (Oct 7, 2010)

midphase @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> AFAIK, MOTU is the bottom of the barrel when it comes to d/a a/d and overall quality of components. (well...ok...m-audio is the very bottom...but we're talking about PCI interfaces).



delta 1010?


----------



## JohnG (Oct 7, 2010)

dcoscina @ 7th October 2010 said:


> Since MOTU, Avid and Apogee are the only Mac-based makers of PCI-e systems, does anyone use one of these three? It seems MOTU is the cheapest to get into but I wonder about the sound quality. Does anyone use one of those?



I use MOTU cards and I think they seem just fine. It's digital in, digital out. I bought a Lavry Blue converter for my A/D and D/A for mains and recording, and use a separate Word Clock.

During the course of buying the D/A converter I looked, and looked -- and looked for an objective analysis of converters. I believe there ain't no such thing. Everything I saw was highly subjective, emotional, testimonial-laden, "famous engineer says" kind of stuff.

Subjective as it may be, however, one can scarcely expect to get a box with 16 converters for $200-500 converters could equal those in a single stereo converter that costs 5-10x as much.


----------



## kdm (Oct 7, 2010)

dcoscina @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> Since MOTU, Avid and Apogee are the only Mac-based makers of PCI-e systems, does anyone use one of these three? It seems MOTU is the cheapest to get into but I wonder about the sound quality. Does anyone use one of those?



MOTU 2408s are probably the best deal for a lot of digital I/O. I wouldn't advise using the ADDA though. 

Just get a good converter as John suggested and clock from either the converter to get the most of the converter, or separate clock/internal if that fits your setup preference and/or budget better. 

The new PT/Avid systems are pricey even for digital I/O, despite support for Core Audio/ASIO, so unless you need PT, that wouldn't be the most cost effective I/O solution for scoring, based on price comparison at least.


----------



## gsilbers (Oct 8, 2010)

JohnG @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> dcoscina @ 7th October 2010 said:
> 
> 
> > Since MOTU, Avid and Apogee are the only Mac-based makers of PCI-e systems, does anyone use one of these three? It seems MOTU is the cheapest to get into but I wonder about the sound quality. Does anyone use one of those?
> ...




+1

also rme does cards. 

as for converters... i think its a lot of pr stuff. 

i had the oportunity to compare apogee vs rme and liked rme better. not like it was 
suuuuuuuuch a big difference, but there was a small one. 
but apogee has a bigger rep. 
maybe due to rme started as a cubase bundle and not high end and has bad stigma... but now rme does madi and very cool high end stuff. 

but hope those pt native cards go doen in price. they are wayyy to expensive. 
really wanted a 200 card with a madi i/o


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 8, 2010)

Hm. I have a different subjective opinion, gsilbers.


----------



## gsilbers (Oct 8, 2010)

yes it varies...

apogee def has a better rep though. and maybe its better and the test i witnessed was a loooò&O   êHª&O   êH«&O   êH¬&O   êH­&O   êH®&O   êH¯&O   êH°&O   êH±&O   êH²&O   êH³&O   êH´&O   êHµ&O   êH¶&O   êH·&O   êH¸&O   êH¹&O   êHº&O   êH»&O   êH¼&O   êH½&O   êH¾&O   êH¿&O   êHÀ&O   ê


----------



## gsilbers (Oct 8, 2010)

maybe they are waiting for the lightwave or whatever its called made by intel to replace usb.


----------



## Revson (Oct 10, 2010)

dcoscina @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> Since MOTU, Avid and Apogee are the only Mac-based makers of PCI-e systems, does anyone use one of these three? It seems MOTU is the cheapest to get into but I wonder about the sound quality. Does anyone use one of those?


 You're forgetting Lynx; my AES16e has been rock solid for a couple of years. Beware with Symphony that you can only get to the digital i/o through their (expensive) 16 channel converter boxes. This is the reason I chucked Symphony for Lynx.


----------



## chimuelo (Oct 11, 2010)

I'm sure that the good folks at Avid realized that there were many more suckers with mid-level money that would buy an inferior sequencer in a second if it was only sort of pricey.

The upside is that money keeps exchanging hands to keep our beloved audio popular enough that someday we might get our own OS. 
Then we can move on past DSP and RISC processors. But until then, DSP chips will get you there...........Native......No Way Jose.

I can't wait to see the cost of having a picture of an API console on the LCD, or a Neve. 
Wow.......Sounds just like the 4000G that goes for a 200 Large. :lol:

The mark up on the PTHD must be enough for the retailers and manufacturer to feast on as the hype for this product is beyond humorous....


----------

