# AI posts a high resolution demo



## Frederick Russ (Aug 16, 2007)

http://www.audioimpressions.com/Support/Tutorials/


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## José Herring (Aug 16, 2007)

Besides the sloppy sequencing I think it much improved. I still hate the artificial sound of Space so I'm experimenting with adding my own verb. Actually with my own verb it sounds pretty good through the head phones. These samples do have a life to them that sounds realistic.

I'm going to check it in the morning through my monitors and if it sounds good I'll post the demo with my own reverb.

best,

Jose


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## gregjazz (Aug 17, 2007)

Still not too impressed. For the price and the claim of realism, it just doesn't cut it. If it relies on sequencing magic, you may as well get a less expensive library.

The effects are cool, but the note transitions are very MIDI sounding.


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## VonRichter (Aug 17, 2007)

Will I be stoned to death if I say I kinda like this? 

I don't $10,000 and a room full of computers like it, but I'd consider it at normal planet-earth prices. Which is less than a 10th of that. 

But I hear plenty of good things in it that would rock with real sequencing.


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## José Herring (Aug 17, 2007)

gregjazz @ Thu Aug 16 said:


> ..... but the note transitions are very MIDI sounding.



Yeah sure it's going to sound that way because it's all one library played all at one time. If you layered a few solo strings in there and a few smaller 2 or 3 man sections it will sound more real for sure. No $12000 worth of real. For that you might as well get the real thing. But for me this thing has just moved from a colossal joke to something that has some potential. I'd love to hear it with real sequencing done in a line at a time.

Jose


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## gregjazz (Aug 17, 2007)

Thing is, what I got from the very first video of it (NAMM show I believe) was that it was (for once) meant to be very playable in realtime as well as just giving it a score and having it play it realistically.

If you have to layer solo strings in to make it sound more realistic, it's missing that goal. (although, I must note, that is a technique that I normally employ to make strings sound more realistic)


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## José Herring (Aug 17, 2007)

True. But the DVZRT thingy is as much as a live medium type device before it's anything else. Having played in a few pits I know this thing will rock the house. I'm not talking like Tosca type level stuff. But your Phatom of the Opera stuff you'll have a few live string players stuffed in the pits along with 40 other guys. Layer these strings in there and you'll really have something for that purpose.

So we'll have to do the same thing only ours for the most part will be all virtual without live players. But you could also just have a small strings section and beef it up with AI. This might work as well too but I'd probably still sequence in layers.

Perhaps in the future they can fine tune DVZ so that it doesn't all attack at the same time or respond to the same cc at the same rate. This might take some really intelligence. But after all it is called AI.

Jose


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## Waywyn (Aug 17, 2007)

For me, there is one big issue about that all. Maybe I didn't understand something, but we'll see.

AI is just thinking from a "keyboard virtuoso realtime player composer" point of view.

.. but a lot of score or other stuff is arranged and not just played by two hands.

I mean, I could load in the Gold XP big string ensemble and would have the same result except having the DVZ going on. I am just talking playingwise.

For instance:
If I play a C major chord: C G E and a low bass C
You would have DBass and Celli playing the low C, but you would have high cellos, violas and violins mixed up, playing the high notes.

Even if there is DVZ going on, it is not the real thing in my opinion.

This question may be stupid, but when I am doing arranging, scoring and composing I am working with 5 individual instruments. (DBass, Celli, Violas, Vio1 and 2).

So I honestly would like to hear a very well arranged and composed demo, which shows me how the lib sounds, when taken care of each instrument individually, like everyone usually is doing when composing on paper.

To make it short, I want to hear the libs full potential and not just "what can I do in realtime in a short amount of time".


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## anton (Aug 17, 2007)

For me :
no problem about the price and all , but i dont like the sound.


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## ChrisAxia (Aug 17, 2007)

I'm still not convinced. 

I think they need to get someone like Thomas J to do a serious demo. You would think after all the hard work developing the software, Chris Stone would make a little more effort in presenting this super-advanced library!?

Chris


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## Moonchilde (Aug 17, 2007)

josejherring @ August 17th 2007 said:


> If you layered a few solo strings in there and a few smaller 2 or 3 man sections it will sound more real for sure.



The entire library is desks layered up. You'd basically be adding another player to the sections if you used the solo on section layering technique. I really think this is a library in which you wouldn't layer a solo instrument into it, that completely defeats it's purpose IMO.


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## PolarBear (Aug 17, 2007)

Once again a bad example of demoing for me. They offer versions from mp3 through 44.1kHz to even 192kHz - and the Reverb chosen would sound as bad in a 32kHz 96kbps mp3 version. And the demo is really wet, it doesn't leave much room for a bit more of my own reverb. This isn't right. But they did offer a midi for download, which is rarely seen these days.

Of course their focus is not the composer market, but DVZ is something that could help them, too. Instead of playing every voice in one by one you could at least do two or three now in one take without a lot of problems if your keyboard chops are up to it. I could even imagine some possibilities of improvements over conventional libraries with using a midi guitar, or like a breath controller for playing stuff in.

Not convinced by the sound of the strings itself either and therefore not willing to lay down that much money. A nice tool for jobs with deadlines for a real recording session perhaps, to get things layed out quickly.

PolarBear


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## Ed (Aug 17, 2007)

i like the spooky bit, everything else sounds not so good. I cant believe this thing is so expensive!


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## wqaxsz (Aug 17, 2007)

I am really surprised.

Maybe i have misunderstood something.

Do this package include extra fingers to play
all the different strings' melodies or parts at the same time and in real time ?

Thank you.

Laurent


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## Waywyn (Aug 17, 2007)

PolarBear @ Fri Aug 17 said:


> But they did offer a midi for download, which is rarely seen these days.



Well, I know what you mean, but there isn't much to hide on a realtime demo which was done in around 5 mins :mrgreen:

Damn guys, don't get me wrong. I don't like bashing about a product so much, but I can't believe this lib costs 12 grand and sounds worse than mostly anything else I know which is out there on the market ... not to speak, that other string libs are around 1/12 of the AI price.


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## Moonchilde (Aug 17, 2007)

Waywyn, most libraries sound like ass when played like a giant GM string patch. Thats whats being done here. I would much rather hear a real time section by section demo and then mixed down together... but thats not how the demos are. Just a giant GM strings patch :(

I bet these samples sound good when sequenced or played real time per section and not run through SPACE. I wonder how much the DVZ software alone with the samples would cost? I think the SPACE junk isn't very good, and perhaps if they offered a smaller package without SPACE it wouldn't cost so much.

Don't forget the enormous user software requirements as well :( Ah, it just seems like AI is shooting themselves in the foot every chance they get.


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## Waywyn (Aug 17, 2007)

Moonchilde @ Fri Aug 17 said:


> Waywyn, most libraries sound like ass when played like a giant GM string patch.



Yeh, I hear you, but there are libs who sound really good when played as a GM string patch .... besides all the articulations ... I just mean the sound itself, the timbre, the feeling.

This lib really sounds like a synth patch which several articulations. I don't hear Strings, I hear a pad.

... and the hall? I heard better rooms done with synthetic verbs.


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## midphase (Aug 17, 2007)

"Waywyn, most libraries sound like ass when played like a giant GM string patch."

I actually disagree. I think that you could get away with quite a bit using something like the VSL VI or K2 with scripting. Sonivox Strings for Kontakt ($900 or less depending where you shop) and K2 ($275 or less) could give you as convincing of an experience with a lot of "live playing" flexibility for 10% of the price and a much smaller electrical bill.


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## CFDG (Aug 17, 2007)

Not impressed for the moment, moslty because those violins sounds way too metallic to me (little gold monitors/PBM6.5II/Sony MDR-SA5000). Tho it could also come from the verb's ERs or a weird taste in EQ.

C.


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## tobyond (Aug 17, 2007)

Not impressed, but I get the feeling this isn't being marketed to me, I'm not sure who they are marketing to, but the search for great strings continues.


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## José Herring (Aug 17, 2007)

CFDG @ Fri Aug 17 said:


> Not impressed for the moment, moslty because those violins sounds way too metallic to me (little gold monitors/PBM6.5II/Sony MDR-SA5000). Tho it could also come from the verb's ERs or a weird taste in EQ.
> 
> C.



Yes this is true. I've had chance to add my own reverb and listen through my studio monitors after messing around with it I've concluded that I just don't think it's for me. The strings do have a metallic sound to them. Space is pretty ringy like a gym type ringy and over 50% of the articulations sound fake to me. I want to give it one more chance but it's clear to me that this product isn't intended for composers but for live performance. They're trying hard to find a cross market for it but from the ground up I think this was always intended to fill out a pit orchestra.

Jose


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## Waywyn (Aug 17, 2007)

So, then all in all I would say that Wallander has one competing product less to fear 
Man, imagine a string module which is like 300 MB big, sounds great and works ...

And even if it is going to be a layer or double library. Around 500 to 1000 bucks is still okay for that.


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## Ed (Aug 17, 2007)

At the end of the day, it doesnt sound realistic and it doesnt *sound* good and no amount of production will help the latter get better I think. 

Its good for fast mockups, presumably thats the only thing its good at. But how many people will spend 12 grand and over just for that? Probably not many,.


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## gregjazz (Aug 18, 2007)

Well, it seems to have lots of flexibility and articulations and stuff. I wonder what a demo by TJ would sound like...


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## Aaron Sapp (Aug 18, 2007)

Like a beautifully carved turd.


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## VonRichter (Aug 18, 2007)

Give me these samples, let me program custom Kontakt patches for them, and I'll make them sound good. There is potential on the lower strings. Ignoring the sequencing in these demos, having thin strings and a lot of divisions like that could be* very* useful with some scripting.

Heck give me $12,000 and I'll head up to the university and record a bunch of desks of strings with top end gear, program all of it using advanced scripting, and release it for $500. No it doesn't come with multiple computers, but that's because it won't need them. I've already programmed auto-divisi, it's not that big of a deal.


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## Waywyn (Aug 18, 2007)

VonRichter @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> Heck give me $12,000 and I'll head up to the university and record a bunch of desks of strings with top end gear, program all of it using advanced scripting, and release it for $500. No it doesn't come with multiple computers, but that's because it won't need them. I've already programmed auto-divisi, it's not that big of a deal.



Please don't feel attacked, but if you are so convinced by yourself, go to a bank, grab the 12 grand, stop talking and just do it!!
Seriously, there is nothing easier than receiving a credit in that range.

If it's all so easy, I wonder why there aren't a couple of well programmed string libs around for 500 bucks.


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## Craig Sharmat (Aug 18, 2007)

one bit of misinformation here is that this library runs 12,000 dollars. this is only if you use the computers in their system. Like when QLSO came out you can make your own for much cheaper. The problem is they are marketing a turn key approach which makes the software appear to be far more expensive than it actually is. 

Still the bottom line is you have to like it enough to shell out for a new library so it better give what is available a run for it's money so to speak. I am hearing things here traditional libraries cannot do. I am also hearing things that traditional libraries do better (some pre-recorded arts are tough to beat as are pre recorded runs etc). I am having problems choosing space over a good convolution at this time also.


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## midphase (Aug 18, 2007)

4 computers at $2000/each (generous for a PC) = $8000.

At $4000 just for the samples, this library is still not very appealing.


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## Christian Marcussen (Aug 18, 2007)

Waywyn @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> VonRichter @ Sat Aug 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Heck give me $12,000 and I'll head up to the university and record a bunch of desks of strings with top end gear, program all of it using advanced scripting, and release it for $500. No it doesn't come with multiple computers, but that's because it won't need them. I've already programmed auto-divisi, it's not that big of a deal.
> ...



To elaborate further on this... yes! Go loan the money! It will be the best investment you ever made. You can easily earn 10 times that if you pull it off!


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## VonRichter (Aug 18, 2007)

Waywyn @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> Please don't feel attacked, but if you are so convinced by yourself, go to a bank, grab the 12 grand, stop talking and just do it!!



You missed the entire point. I'm saying I would go record my own before spending that much on a library. 

But off-topic, I do plan to record a string library if I can raise the money. I have no credit, no income, good enough gear, or even a bank account, so it's a pipe dream for now.

Cheers,
-VR


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## Waywyn (Aug 18, 2007)

VonRichter @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> Waywyn @ Sat Aug 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Please don't feel attacked, but if you are so convinced by yourself, go to a bank, grab the 12 grand, stop talking and just do it!!
> ...



I didn't miss anything. Please read your previous post again, carefully .. and then mine.


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## VonRichter (Aug 18, 2007)

Waywyn @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> I didn't miss anything. Please read your previous post again, carefully .. and then mine.



Please read mine without taking it seriously. 

Ahh, the vagaries of the net. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Anyway yeah, now you got my ambitions fired to actually do what you suggest.


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## Craig Sharmat (Aug 18, 2007)

midphase @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> 4 computers at $2000/each (generous for a PC) = $8000.
> 
> At $4000 just for the samples, this library is still not very appealing.



why is money always the issue....the first thing to consider is if you actually like something. If you do then money can become an issue, if you don't then it never even enters the picture.


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## Waywyn (Aug 18, 2007)

VonRichter @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> Waywyn @ Sat Aug 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't miss anything. Please read your previous post again, carefully .. and then mine.
> ...



Why did I know that!! Just a braggy post with words only


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## Christian Marcussen (Aug 18, 2007)

Craig Sharmat @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> midphase @ Sat Aug 18 said:
> 
> 
> > 4 computers at $2000/each (generous for a PC) = $8000.
> ...



It's only natural to weigh quality against the price asked for it. 

VonRichter... 

Prove you can make the best string library ever and I'll consider financíng it


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## Frederick Russ (Aug 18, 2007)

I'd like to hear AI DVZ with well thought out sequencing arrangement, cc massaging and a good convolution reverb. Perhaps in the hands of a midi mockup veteran it might sound differently - or it may sound like Aaron's description. Its really difficult honestly to make a serious determination for everyday studio use based on a demo played in real time though - no offense Chris - _if_ you're addressing the market that comprises most of the membership here at VI.

Not trying to defend AI but just observing that Sharmy's right - the software does not cost anywhere near $12k - that's for the entire package with 3 computers. If I remember correctly, East West's Platinum when announced recommended four Vision DAW computers that together with the software ran to $11,300 and VSL's Vienna Instruments Cube is $11,970 (computers not included). 

Honesty: the demo, to me, does not seem to flaunt AI's strengths but rather brings to light its weaknesses. Regardless of developer, all sample libraries have them. I say bring in some of the mockup champs - at least for the applications that most interest composers here who deal with midi mockup.


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## VonRichter (Aug 18, 2007)

Frederick Russ @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> Honesty: the demo, to me, does not seem to flaunt AI's strengths but rather brings to light its weaknesses. .



I maintain my position that the samples are better and could be more useful than the demo's suggest. Maybe. Thinks of this without the pumping compressor settings, the spring reverb, and with a bigger high violin section from another lib, through a good verb, and it could be good.


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## JohnnyMarks (Aug 18, 2007)

Waywyn @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> VonRichter @ Sat Aug 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Waywyn @ Sat Aug 18 said:
> ...



Please read mine without taking it seriously. [/quòçõ   _ˆhçõ   _ˆiçõ   _ˆjçõ   _ˆkçõ   _ˆlçõ   _ˆmçõ   _ˆnçõ   _ˆoçõ   _ˆpçõ   _ˆqçõ   _ˆrçõ   _ˆsçõ   _ˆtçõ   _ˆ§çõ   _ˆ¨çõ   _ˆ©çõ   _ˆªçö   _ˆuçö


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## VonRichter (Aug 18, 2007)

Waywyn @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> With 12 grand you should of course be able to create something cool sounding, but his post just sounded so "cool" and "easy", it sounded almost a bit condescending against sample developers.



Where do you come up with this stuff? It's a wonder you get all that out of a completely flippant post. I've recorded tons of sample sets over the years and it's never easy. But I would definitely record a custom library for 12,000$ long before I would buy a library for 12,000$, no matter how good it is. 12,000$ is an incredible fortune to me. I live on scrounged nickels and ramen. I know good players who are all too enthusiastic to do session work for 20$ and beer. That 12,000$ would fund a LOT of sessions! Complete with "real legato"!  

Can we go back on topic now? :o :D


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## VonRichter (Aug 18, 2007)

Waywyn @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> The big risk for a sample developer is, that he doesn't know (until he finished the project), if the strings he recorded will work as programmed samples in a library together with other samples or in a musical context.



I think the connections between notes and shifts in sustain timbre are the real issue, all things being equal. A mediocre recording of real piano or viola sounds better than the most pristine sample, because the performance and the connections are real, and the sustains are suited to the passage. Not to mention various other things (string resonance, squeaks, bonks, etc).


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## sbkp (Aug 18, 2007)

VonRichter @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> bonks



I would pay for a viola bonk library...


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## VonRichter (Aug 18, 2007)

sbkp @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> VonRichter @ Sat Aug 18 said:
> 
> 
> > bonks
> ...



I happen to be selling viola bonk samples for $12,000, so you're in luck! :D


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## VonRichter (Aug 18, 2007)

Ed @ Fri Aug 17 said:


> i like the spooky bit, everything else sounds not so good. I cant believe this thing is so expensive!



Do we really even know how expensive it is? The site lists a few packages, but doesn't say what they will cost.

One thing I have to applaud is their attempt at completely comprehensive articulations.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 18, 2007)

Bonking aside, the price is $3,499 US for the software. That's for the strings, but it also includes DVZ and Space, which you only have to buy once. I don't remember exactly what Carl M. told me, but each section is about $1800 -1900.

(The $3499 for DVZ + Space + Strings is official - it's the additional section prices I don't remember exactly.)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 18, 2007)

The other thing Carl told me is that you can get by with fewer computers if you don't use every desk in the string section at once. So you need one computer for DVZ + Space, and then after that the computer mileage is the same as for anything else. I'm assuming that each desk is a voice, so if I'm right you can figure it out from there.


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## midphase (Aug 18, 2007)

> why is money always the issue....the first thing to consider is if you actually like something. If you do then money can become an issue, if you don't then it never even enters the picture.



You're absolutely right...I should have said that I wouldn't use this library even if someone paid me to do so. My first objection was that it's a PC only app...followed by the fact that the demos don't sound any better than Appasionata Strings....and I believe that the VSL VI software allows for a great deal of "live playing" already.

So you're right...money should not be the issue if I don't like the library....I guess I was just trying to illustrate that even for just the software alone, this library is priced well above the competition.


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## Colin O'Malley (Aug 18, 2007)

I understand a lot of the concerns raised here. On a more specific note, I really like the character of the run he plays at 1:21. If you compare the raw mp3 (what he calles live first pass) with the final mix you can get a more exposed idea of how the software is creating these slurring transitions. Very interesting to me. 

I'm not sold yet, but I look forward to hearing a crafted mockup using this library. 

Colin


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## PolarBear (Aug 18, 2007)

VonRichter @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> A mediocre recording of real piano or viola sounds better than the most pristine sampl


Agreeing with the viola part here, but completely disagreeing with the piano part. Many of my favorite feature film scores are having a sampled piano there. Despite of the rest that is completely real orchestra score. Pianos can already replace the real thing for its qualities that aren't simply so easily availible from real recordings without much hassle.

PolarBear

$PS: 12k for the sessions do not cover any gear or editing/programming. That would be about the same amount at least if done right I guess. You should always count in your own work, nothing is free, not even your own time.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 18, 2007)

Yeah, I could play you recordings from a score I did in the '80s in a studio with a lousy piano. Any contemporary sampled piano would totally kick that instrument's ass.

The pianist is great, so it's not that - it's that a $100 sampled piano beats a crappy real one.


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## Waywyn (Aug 19, 2007)

VonRichter @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> Where do you come up with this stuff? It's a wonder you get all that out of a completely flippant post. I've recorded tons of sample sets over the years and it's never easy. But I would definitely record a custom library for 12,000$ long before I would buy a library for 12,000$, no matter how good it is. 12,000$ is an incredible fortune to me. I live on scrounged nickels and ramen. I know good players who are all too enthusiastic to do session work for 20$ and beer. That 12,000$ would fund a LOT of sessions! Complete with "real legato"!



Well, you wrote that post and you knew your aim (to be flippant).
Christian and me were just reading it and I personally didn't see anything flippant in this 
For me/us it looked like, that it is very easy for your to pull out a better string lib


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## Christian Marcussen (Aug 19, 2007)

hehe - well perhaps not easy. But that you had the know-how to pull it off


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## horselesspaul (Aug 19, 2007)

VonRichter @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> Waywyn @ Sat Aug 18 said:
> 
> 
> > That 12,000$ would fund a LOT of sessions!


For your 12k you'd have to fit the entire recording process of discrete desks with individual leaders playing every articulation into about 12 hours and then edit it for free in your own time then you'd be on the right track vis a vis Audio Impressions and their level of sample and original performance quality.

Good luck.


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## Aaron Sapp (Aug 19, 2007)

There are so many factors that go into capturing a great string sound - anybody who thinks they can create a brilliant string library without having busted their balls with a couple string sampling sessions themselves, is an idiot. And while I'm not terribly impressed with A.I's demo, I do very much appreciate the fact they tried something different (layering soloists versus recording a section).


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## Ed (Aug 19, 2007)

horselesspaul @ Sun Aug 19 said:


> VonRichter @ Sat Aug 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Waywyn @ Sat Aug 18 said:
> ...



He didnt say he would do it the way AI did. TJs private library wasnt done that way, and still sounds the best. And I do mean *sounds*. A real time demo or not the demo still shows some pretty unpleasent sounding strings to me and I dighly doubt this can be fixed with better reverb or CC controls. Im sure it would sound a lot better of course, but nowhere near the kind of thing their hype engine deserves.


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## VonRichter (Aug 19, 2007)

Ed @ Sun Aug 19 said:


> horselesspaul @ Sun Aug 19 said:
> 
> 
> > VonRichter @ Sat Aug 18 said:
> ...



That's the whole idea of recording your own stuff. To get the stuff you want, how you want it. Trying to outdo VSL's (for example) technical polish isn't the point.

You know, like I said before, recording samples is hard, but it's not as hard as people on this thread are now claiming. If you can get good takes from the player, it's like recording any instrument. So if you have engineering skill, a good room, good mics and pre's, and a *lot *of time to sit around editing and programming, you're good to go. It won't be VSL, but it will have whatever unique character it ends up with, which could give your stuff a unique vibe. Many people create custom samples... it's not a big deal.

Without people who tried, and believed they could do it, we wouldn't have any samples in the first place.


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## VonRichter (Aug 19, 2007)

Waywyn @ Sun Aug 19 said:


> Well, you wrote that post and you knew your aim (to be flippant).
> Christian and me were just reading it and I personally didn't see anything flippant in this
> For me/us it looked like, that it is very easy for your to pull out a better string lib



It's plainly obvious from the context it was posted in that I am saying this:

"Rather than spending that much for a library, I would record my own".

And I would. There is no bragging subtext, and no condescending subtext. 

Also note that the sentence in question starts with "Heck&qòèF   _›!èF   _›"èF   _›#èF   _›$èF   _›%èF   _›&èF   _›'èF   _›(èF   _›)èF   _›*èF   _›+èF   _›,èF   _›-èF   _›.èF   _›/èF   _›0èF   _›1èF   _›2èF   _›3èF   _›4èF   _›5èF   _›6èF   _›7èF   _›8èF   _›9èF   _›:èF   _›;èF   _›<èF   _›=èF   _›>èF   _›?èF   _›@èF   _›AèF   _›BèF   _›CèF   _›DèF   _›EèF   _›FèF   _›GèF   _›HèF   _›IèF   _›JèF   _›KèF   _›LèF   _›MèF   _›NèF   _›OèF   _›PèF   _›QèF   _›RèF   _›SèF   _›TèF   _›UèF   _›VèF   _›WèF   _›XèF


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## Frederick Russ (Aug 19, 2007)

$12k would fund surprisingly less than you think. You would be cutting corners left and right in either articulations or instrument sizes. To record separate desks of two players is quite a lot of redundancy - and redundancy is time-intensive. However, I'm sure its possible to get some gold out of a small session like that. If you think you can do it, great, and good luck.


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## VonRichter (Aug 19, 2007)

Frederick Russ @ Sun Aug 19 said:


> However, I'm sure its possible to get some gold out of a small session like that. If you think you can do it, great, and good luck.



Ahhh! I don't have 12k, and I'm not recording any string section samples! 

I'd go travel the world with my accordion if I had 12k, and turn it into a documentary. :mrgreen:


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## choc0thrax (Aug 19, 2007)

lol...


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## Christian Marcussen (Aug 19, 2007)

VonRichter @ Sun Aug 19 said:


> Frederick Russ @ Sun Aug 19 said:
> 
> 
> > However, I'm sure its possible to get some gold out of a small session like that. If you think you can do it, great, and good luck.
> ...



Good luck selling your documanttary at $500 a piece :D


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## Craig Sharmat (Aug 19, 2007)

VonRichter @ Sun Aug 19 said:


> Frederick Russ @ Sun Aug 19 said:
> 
> 
> > However, I'm sure its possible to get some gold out of a small session like that. If you think you can do it, great, and good luck.
> ...



Do you think traveling the world with an accordian is really a wise idea? I know people have been killed for less.

BTW 

"Schultze Gets the Blues" was a fun movie.


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## VonRichter (Aug 19, 2007)

Ok... since this thread somehow turned into people requesting (via PM as well) that I "stop talking big and show what I can do", and substantiate claims I never made, I threw together a demo of the custom string section simulation software I've been programming :wink: :

http://www.savefile.com/files/985756

(256k MP3)

It uses only slightly more than normal cpu resources, and everything is done on a single midi track/patch, in real time.

Cheers!


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## ChrisAxia (Aug 19, 2007)

That's pretty impressive Mr VonRichter! I look forward to hearing a nice demo incorporating all these techniques!!



Craig Sharmat @ Sun Aug 19 said:


> Do you think traveling the world with an accordian is really a wise idea? I know people have been killed for less.


That's funny Craig!!!

Chris


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## Peter Alexander (Aug 19, 2007)

Craig Sharmat @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> one bit of misinformation here is that this library runs 12,000 dollars. this is only if you use the computers in their system. Like when QLSO came out you can make your own for much cheaper. The problem is they are marketing a turn key approach which makes the software appear to be far more expensive than it actually is.
> 
> Still the bottom line is you have to like it enough to shell out for a new library so it better give what is available a run for it's money so to speak. I am hearing things here traditional libraries cannot do. I am also hearing things that traditional libraries do better (some pre-recorded arts are tough to beat as are pre recorded runs etc). I am having problems choosing space over a good convolution at this time also.



I think I read the software is $3700 or so. Now factor in three computers averaging $2500 each ($7500), Kontakt, Audio Mulch, MoL, FX Teleport plus the audio card for the main computer (I read they're offering a Lynx). If you don't go Lynx, for this kind of money, I wouldn't do anything less than RME. 

So $12,000 is about right.


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## Peter Alexander (Aug 19, 2007)

Frederick Russ @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> I'd like to hear AI DVZ with well thought out sequencing arrangement, cc massaging and a good convolution reverb. Perhaps in the hands of a midi mockup veteran it might sound differently - or it may sound like Aaron's description. Its really difficult honestly to make a serious determination for everyday studio use based on a demo played in real time though - no offense Chris - _if_ you're addressing the market that comprises most of the membership here at VI.
> 
> Not trying to defend AI but just observing that Sharmy's right - the software does not cost anywhere near $12k - that's for the entire package with 3 computers. If I remember correctly, East West's Platinum when announced recommended four Vision DAW computers that together with the software ran to $11,300 and VSL's Vienna Instruments Cube is $11,970 (computers not included).
> 
> Honesty: the demo, to me, does not seem to flaunt AI's strengths but rather brings to light its weaknesses. Regardless of developer, all sample libraries have them. I say bring in some of the mockup champs - at least for the applications that most interest composers here who deal with midi mockup.



Your point is well taken, Fred, but with this exception: all computers running DVZ must be dedicated which is not the case with QLSO (Kontakt standard) or VI.


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## José Herring (Aug 19, 2007)

Heir Von Richter that sounds really good. These are your own custom scripts? Any plan on making these public?

Jose


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## VonRichter (Aug 19, 2007)

josejherring @ Sun Aug 19 said:


> Heir Von Richter that sounds really good. These are your own custom scripts? Any plan on making these public?
> Jose



Thanks! 

Yes they are full custom, I've been working on them for the last year, to hopefully aid in finishing a really killer demo reel. 

It's a complicated mix of scripting, programming and re-sampling/hard edits. I would wager it would take at least a few months of constant work to adapt it to any given library.

It would really only be effective as part of a purpose made library, since the programming is so deep, and relies on precise factors that are custom tailored to each sample depending on inconsistencies from note to note. Besides, I can't very well take one of the commercial libraries I own, do the required edits and re-sampling, then distribute them.


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## JohnnyMarks (Aug 19, 2007)

Congrats VonRichter. I hear tremendous value in this work. Elsewhere a rather pleasant silence.


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## gregjazz (Aug 19, 2007)

VonRichter, this sounds really good! Just out of curiosity, What library are the samples based off of?


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## Waywyn (Aug 20, 2007)

VonRichter @ Mon Aug 20 said:


> Ok... since this thread somehow turned into people requesting (via PM as well) that I "stop talking big and show what I can do", and substantiate claims I never made, I threw together a demo of the custom string section simulation software I've been programming :wink: :
> 
> http://www.savefile.com/files/985756
> 
> ...



I have to say this is a great start! Why didn't you post that right away in the beginning 

Just kidding: but on the last "have great day" you can hear that he might be pissed a bit after all that


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## Christian Marcussen (Aug 20, 2007)

LOL - VonRichter just kicked A.I.'s ass :D

Now get going and make that library!


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## Fernando Warez (Aug 20, 2007)

Waywyn @ Mon Aug 20 said:


> VonRichter @ Mon Aug 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok... since this thread somehow turned into people requesting (via PM as well) that I "stop talking big and show what I can do", and substantiate claims I never made, I threw together a demo of the custom string section simulation software I've been programming :wink: :
> ...



I don't think so. The guys seem to have a playful personality. 

Great demos Mr. Richter. I wish all K2 developers had your skills.


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## dannthr (Aug 20, 2007)

I like the idea of DVZ

I'd be interested in hearing a demo that was competently constructed/composed.



PS: Von Richter is a really fantastic evil-genius-arch-villain name.


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## PolarBear (Aug 20, 2007)

VonRichter @ Mon Aug 20 said:


> Ok... since this thread somehow turned into people requesting (via PM as well) that I "stop talking big and show what I can do", and substantiate claims I never made, I threw together a demo of the custom string section simulation software I've been programming :wink: :
> 
> http://www.savefile.com/files/985756
> 
> ...



That should fill in some gaps... or leave the room for some other string lines? Haha  Sorry couldn't resist.

Personally I thought the script wasn't too effective, afterall it's a merely 2 or 3 part divisi most of the time, and hardly noticable effect there. For a 4 - 8 part divisi a full section sound is way too much and the script could perhaps lighten it a bit, but it still be the old stack up thing somehow and prominently noticable. Just IMHO.

I'd be wondering what this script could achieve when using layered solo violin(s) (1 - 3 per divisi part) on top?

All the best,
PolarBear


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## Craig Sharmat (Aug 20, 2007)

in all fairness here he is having to use a limited sample set so his hands are tied. If he could have sampled desks as in AI the divisi would be that much better.


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## VonRichter (Aug 20, 2007)

PolarBear @ Mon Aug 20 said:


> Personally I thought the script wasn't too effective, afterall it's a merely 2 or 3 part divisi most of the time, and hardly noticable effect there. For a 4 - 8 part divisi a full section sound is way too much and the script could perhaps lighten it a bit, but it still be the old stack up thing somehow and prominently noticable. Just IMHO.



I can't tell if you're talking about what I've been doing, and I can't figure out what you're trying to explain, but I said repeatedly in the mp3 that I had to create fake divisi samples because I do not have any real ones. Of course it won't sound like actual divisi splits without proper samples recorded. Also, the divisi demo was 8 notes, not "2 or 3" as you say. What you say about the "full section stacking up" doesn't make sense... the whole point is that it doesn't stack up the same samples.

What I need are full, half, a3, a4, etc on up to solo. This is not the same as the AI approach of many 2-player desks.


BTW, my divisi programming also works with brass sections. Aside from the divisi, all the dynamics (DEF-like effect), legato, vibrato, and mute simulations work with solo instruments too. Convolution with body resonance is used for some of this stuff. Another interesting bit is "intelligent round-robin", which cycles through note variations in conditional patterns that never change no matter where you start the midi playback from. This way the sequence sounds exactly the same each time.


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## Rob Elliott (Aug 20, 2007)

Christian Marcussen @ Mon Aug 20 said:


> LOL - VonRichter just kicked A.I.'s ass :D
> 
> Now get going and make that library!




One more vote of approval (nice work VonRichter) The legato stuff is quite good.


Rob


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## Sovereign (Aug 20, 2007)

Von Richter sounds evil. :shock:


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## VonRichter (Aug 20, 2007)

Sovereign @ Mon Aug 20 said:


> Von Richter sounds evil. :shock:



Uh... thanks? :?:


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## gregjazz (Aug 20, 2007)

I'm listening to your string demo over and over, VonRichter. Man, this is so nice! Great work on this!


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## Rob Elliott (Aug 20, 2007)

If there was ever a better example of ... 'build a better mousetrap and the world would beat a path to your door... :D ' - this was it.

Someone comes us with elegant solution to get our string mockups closer WITHOUT hours of tweaking / additional slaves - they are simply going to make a lot of cash!!!!


I just as soon as send my cash to VonRichter as anyone :D :D (can you JV with one of the 'big boys'? - i.e. using there sample set...)


Rob


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## KingIdiot (Aug 20, 2007)

I'm pretty interested in Von Richter's Accordion stuff now...



seriousy th, interesting stuff VR, I can hear how it would benefit from real samples. It be interesting to know how much sampling needs to be done to get the complete effect. I understand you say the different sizes, but I'd also be curious about articulations and such, if true legato needs to be sampled as well, or if its artificially created (you say that body impulses are used, and I can see how that would help here)

I find it REALLY interesting that you're doing this all for yourself to build a better demo reel. Thats true *high five* stuff for a tweak nut like me!


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## Sovereign (Aug 20, 2007)

Rob Elliott @ Mon Aug 20 said:


> One more vote of approval (nice work VonRichter) The legato stuff is quite good.


Doesn't sound that bad indeed, but to really judge that one would need to hear more than just a few brief notes.


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## VonRichter (Aug 20, 2007)

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----------



## gregjazz (Aug 20, 2007)

Thanks again for the demo! Then again, time is probably better spent working on the custom library than making demos to show it off, I'm guessing...


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## dannthr (Aug 20, 2007)

Von Richter, you're my hero.


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## PolarBear (Aug 20, 2007)

VonRichter @ Mon Aug 20 said:


> About your other Q's... it would be quite a project, since I would need proper divisions of all articulations. Let's look at a violin section tremelo with a conservatively sized group:
> 
> 
> 14 unis
> ...



I don't know if you're doing what I'm talking about, and I can't figure out what you're trying to show. So here I am, needing a short briefing what the cool thing about the script is.

The section sizes I mentioned were meant as figures for later use or use in actual works. Most of the time pieces will have only a 2 to 3 part divisi, where in my opinion your script, if it's doing what I think, does not show much effect. If there's more to it, please explain shortly. Yet composing for an 8 part divisi is a rather rare occasion I think.

Which is where the quote above kicks in. If you have all the divisi sections recorded properly as you described above, so if it's done really proper for divisi stuff, where is the need for a script? Again, I may not fully understand its intention, please enlighten the idiot here. The volume thing for lowering the stack up effect would only be needed in case not optimal samples are used for divisi parts, i.e. like two samples of 7 violins for a 4 part divisi, adding up to calculated 28 violins instead of 14. So again here, if recorded properly, why script it?

Which leads me to another point aside, more a suggestion. I think while having high intentions here, you have to compare input and output thoroughly. That is, if you're going to record all the sizes as you pointed out above, even at only 2 levels each, you're going to put a lot of energy and money into samples that would hardly be used after. So if I was gonna do this task I'd only choose sample sets of 1, 3, 5 and 9 violins for section sizes. And maybe leave out an additional set of 7 or 14 violins: Layering the set of 3 with the set of 5 will get you an almost equal sound as a recording of 7 will. Full section sound with the set of 5 layered over the set of 9. One has to take care of this though while recording, so that there won't be phasing effects later. If you're nutty you could pay attention with a script to the stereo spread within the section.

Another great effect using these numbers: for short strings if variations are recorded (most likely) there could be already 2 more variations generated for 2 recorded variations. Cuts down the recording time. And eventually this would allow for a in my opinion needed 3rd or even 4th level in some cases. I yet have to see the script cutting this I guess.

Full section sound could also have alternatives like taking set of 9 two times, layering set of 3, 5 and 9 and any combination with the solo and so on etc. 5 could also mean 6 (or 9 also 10) in this context for a fuller sound, should be tested before.

All the best,
PolarBear


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## VonRichter (Aug 20, 2007)

Polar, 

A: I have no money, and no intention of recording string section samples (I would PROGRAM them for someone else, if they paid me something fair for the massive amount of work it would take.)

B: All of what you write tech-wise is N/A for what I'm doing.

C: You can hear what the programming does in the mp3 demo. You can only decide for yourself if the results sound useful.

D: Auto-divisi is only one aspect of the programming, not the main focus.

Cheers,
-VR


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## Waywyn (Aug 21, 2007)

Hey Von Richter,

here is a suggestion.
You said you have no money, no reel which you are happy with, but you are able to do good scripting?

How about demonstrating and sending examples of your scripts to countless sample developers and make them want to work with you?

Earn some money, by collaborating with them, licence your scripts or sell them exclusively to one company which will implement them in a new library and get participated on the sales.

Then go on, take the money, use the new libs you participated, buy other cool libs and get your reel done?


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## PolarBear (Aug 21, 2007)

So I still have to remain with the same knowledge as before. Autodivisi (which is what I was talking about only) does something. But is this something not irrelevant if you got (money aside) the proper divisi samples?

PolarBear


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## dannthr (Aug 21, 2007)

Don't listen to Waywyn, VR, instead make a smash sequel to Mr. Hotdog Head, ride the indy circuit to glory! Find love, lose love, become a drug addict! Then, when your work becomes a cult favorite in thirty years, scream obscenities and throw rocks at the people waiting in line at the outdoor cinemas who are dressed in hotdog outfits.


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## JohnnyMarks (Aug 21, 2007)

dannthr @ Tue Aug 21 said:


> Don't listen to Waywyn, VR, instead make a smash sequel to Mr. Hotdog Head, ride the indy circuit to glory! Find love, lose love, become a drug addict! Then, when your work becomes a cult favorite in thirty years, scream obscenities and throw rocks at the people waiting in line at the outdoor cinemas who are dressed in hotdog outfits.


I favor this also.


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## Waywyn (Aug 21, 2007)

Yeah, well, good idea and as a previous lead guitar player of a touring rock band I give my thumbs up to that suggestion, too ...

... I was just thinking egoistic, because we would maybe get a good string lib


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## handz (Aug 21, 2007)

Very nice job VonRichter!!!! Great if I could say. 

Burn AI burn in hell. :twisted: 

And yeah the voice is scary! >8o


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## VonRichter (Aug 21, 2007)

Waywyn @ Tue Aug 21 said:


> Yeah, well, good idea and as a previous lead guitar player of a touring rock band I give my thumbs up to that suggestion, too ...



I'm all for that! Too bad I've never been able to keep a band together for more than a few weeks. Drives me insane. I have written hundreds of megahit songs. Too bad the music industry intentionally seeks out bland garbage/naked autotuned ho's now, and has no desire to market songs that sell themselves by sheer catchiness.


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## VonRichter (Aug 21, 2007)

PolarBear @ Tue Aug 21 said:


> Autodivisi (which is what I was talking about only) does something.



But what I'm doing doesn't work like AI's powerful system. There is a reason they need so much horsepower. They are having each line intelligently spread (that's what they seem to be saying), and they are having it happen invisibly (supposedly) and instantly (supposedly). The only way to do this is by layering the samples. 

I'm not sure if they can do this without delaying the onset of notes, but perhaps it's only a tiny, tiny delay of no consequence. The computer isn't psychic, after all. A delay of 1 MS is nothing, and probably enough to calculate all current notes and where they go in the chord.

My system would use actual samples of the actual fraction of the section. A totally different ball of wax.


The only potential flaw with all of this auto-divisi business that is just what you said PolarBear. String sections rarely go more than a3, with an a4 here and there in the violins. But they CAN be divided to extreme amounts. I sometimes divide the strings clear down to solos in my serious concert works.

But here's the thing... there is a limit to what players can do with extreme divisions before it becomes an out of tune mess. Maybe you could get pretty tricky with the top-top-top 2 or 3 virtuosic orchestras in the world, but for your average orchestra string section, trying to do runs and expecting them to be in tune with a full solo 16-part divisi in the violins is absurd. 

Extreme divisions are more practically and commonly used only for sustained coloristic passages where there is time to "hear it out".

Those are the passages my auto divisi technique is designed for. The example in the mp3 is a classic case of foolproof heavy divisi scoring that would sound well even with your average small city university orchestra. 

If I had, say, a 3-part division, each playing contrapuntal lines, why would I want auto-divisi? I would use a 1/3 section sample, with the full complement of sequencing on each line for maximum realism.

Auto-divisi as a whole is not that big of a selling point for a string library, in my opinion, since it's not often a factor in scoring real pieces for real orchestras. In anything rapid, we're usually going for clarity and impact, with the strings in unison in parallel motion (hence very few if any brief overlaps of two fractions of a divisi).

Auto-divisi really comes into it's own with clusters... it makes simulating them a total breeze.


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## PolarBear (Aug 21, 2007)

handz @ Wed Aug 22 said:


> And yeah the voice is scary! >8o


That may be dependant on the voice recording technique he used also  (which I was playing on in my first comment to his demo)


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## Peter Alexander (Aug 21, 2007)

Having listened to the Ai demo, I want to give my take on it. I would like to hear Von Richter's but I wasn't able to download it when I clicked on the link.

In fairness, I think we need to moderate our opinions on the first demo, simply because, it's the first demo. Whenever a new orchestral library comes out, nearly always, there's lots of bashing on the first few demos. Then, new demos come out, and opinions change.

This seems to be case here.

In listening to the demo, I felt compositionally that it was very adventuresome. It had a lot going on. To me, it seemed to execute a lot of difficult stuff well, that other string libraries might have difficulty pulling off. 

In places, it did sound synthy (I listened to the 192 version only), but at the same time, it didn't produce the organ effect, at least, not from what I could hear.

I also thought in some places it sounded a bit strident, but a little EQ and the right verb might take some of that edge off.

For the first demo, I thought highly of it. 

Now, the flip side.

In evaluating the library, we cannot evaluate it, even pricewise, in comparison with any VSL or QLSO or SONiVOX product because this library runs on a dedicated system. 

Even with two (2) computer systems, you're looking at around $9000-$10,000 for the software, systems, support software and master audio card, understanding that no other sample libraries can run on those machines. They are totally, 100% (as I read it) dedicated.

Because of the dedicated systems, it's non-comparable to any other library except by how it sounds.

So here are some suggested string-only mock-ups Ai might consider:

1. Variations on a Theme by Thomas Tallis

2. Barber's Adagio For Strings 

3. Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus

The demos will tell the story. And if the next group prove to be really great, then they'll have something to crow about. And here's hoping they do. A lot of money has been invested in this.


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## PolarBear (Aug 21, 2007)

vonR, well ok, so your script is doing the automation for selecting the proper recorded samples, I think I got that now. Just thought it might be more to it with thinning out the sound a bit or something similar. The main point for you is to have everything laid out in one track not having to touch it after recording through keyboard or something but simply let the sequence play after. Ok, that may be an advantage if you really go to do a 16-part divisi.

Being now back on track with everyone else now (well and yes, it is an achievement to have such a script): what was it you thought about for having additional velocity layers simulated effectively by a script so you only had to do p and f or mf and ff recordings skipping all other velocities? Or did I misunderstand that part as well? Pardon the dyslexic please 

Thanks for your time!
PolarBear


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## PolarBear (Aug 21, 2007)

Peter Alexander @ Wed Aug 22 said:


> In fairness, I think we need to moderate our opinions on the first demo, simply because, it's the first demo. Whenever a new orchestral library comes out, nearly always, there's lots of bashing on the first few demos. Then, new demos come out, and opinions change.


Wasn't the case with VSL, wasn't the case with EWQLSO, wasn't the case with AO, wasn't the case with SAM Horns, wasn't the case with Westgate's libraries, wasn't the case with Scarbee's libraries, wasn't the case with ArtVista's libraries. Shall I continue?




Peter Alexander @ Wed Aug 22 said:


> In listening to the demo, I felt compositionally that it was very adventuresome. It had a lot going on. To me, it seemed to execute a lot of difficult stuff well, that other string libraries might have difficulty pulling off.


Yes, that's because if you look at the midi file you'll see it's not a proper composed string composition but a merely in a rush played in keyboard song. With emphasis on the word song. Other libraries do have difficulties with that because it is more the domain of a Roland JV-1080 or something like that.




Peter Alexander @ Wed Aug 22 said:


> In places, it did sound synthy (I listened to the 192 version only), but at the same time, it didn't produce the organ effect, at least, not from what I could hear.


You gotta be kidding, synthiness could be wiped away by having 24bit sound instead of well done mp3?




Peter Alexander @ Wed Aug 22 said:


> In evaluating the library, we cannot evaluate it, even pricewise, in comparison with any VSL or QLSO or SONiVOX product because this library runs on a dedicated system.


We can: We could build our own two machines for this, and could use these for our other libraries if we don't need AI for the particular piece. If we load all our computers with MSO, VSL or EWQLSO it is dedicated to that too, and not availible for any additional libraries. For a single piece. If we unload these samples, or unload AI for that matter, it's again availible for something else. It's just a downside for AI the loading process then is a bit more tedious and resource hogging with AI in the template.




Peter Alexander @ Wed Aug 22 said:


> So here are some suggested string-only mock-ups Ai might consider:
> 
> 1. Variations on a Theme by Thomas Tallis
> 2. Barber's Adagio For Strings
> 3. Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus


Go for it! That would be a very good start, actually it wouldn't matter that much which piece they picked as long as it does show how it sounds with something composed for the samples: As I do think it does have a great potential, but it's just not showing this off at the moment.

Just IMHO (as always),
PolarBear


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## VonRichter (Aug 21, 2007)

PolarBear @ Tue Aug 21 said:


> Being now back on track with everyone else now (well and yes, it is an achievement to have such a script):



I feel the urge to clarify again that it's not just a "magic script" that does this. It involves a lot of other tedious programming as well.

Cheers,
-VR


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## PolarBear (Aug 21, 2007)

See vonR... still not on the path of believers I guess :twisted: :evil: :twisted:


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## VonRichter (Aug 21, 2007)

PolarBear @ Tue Aug 21 said:


> See vonR... still not on the path of believers I guess :twisted: :evil: :twisted:



Uhh... what's that supposed to mean?


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## choc0thrax (Aug 21, 2007)

Don't worry about understanding Polar, you'll just hurt yourself. 8) Hey Polar what do you mean wasn't the case with EWQLSO. Maybe my memory sucks but weren't there a lot of people who criticized Nick's first demo?


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## Peter Alexander (Aug 21, 2007)

PolarBear @ Tue Aug 21 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Wed Aug 22 said:
> 
> 
> > In fairness, I think we need to moderate our opinions on the first demo, simply because, it's the first demo. Whenever a new orchestral library comes out, nearly always, there's lots of bashing on the first few demos. Then, new demos come out, and opinions change.
> ...



1. I was there for VSL and heard lots of critiques of early demos, especially Air Force One. At that time, I was a dealer for VSL and heard all sorts of negative comments from composers who came over to demo the library. The very first demo Nick did for QLSO was flamed royally over at another forum. 

2. Sorry, but if software must be dedicated to two or more systems, and no other software can run on those computers, then that's a _proprietary system_ and you cannot directly compare VSL, QLSO, or SONiVOX except by caliber of sound since other libraries can reside and operate on the same systems as VSL, QLSO, or SONiVOX.

3. Your rebuttal is making my point. One demo and you're assassinating the company. That's hardly fair. Now, when they have 5-10 or more demos to compare to, that's different. But one demo?

4. I suggested three works that are very challenging for strings, several of which have been mocked up by users with other libraries. Two of the three have extensive divisi writing which would push the library: Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis and Dives and Lazarus. Thomas Tallis, in the event you aren't aware, requires a double string orchestra. Certainly a stiff challenge, but one that tests the product's name: DVZ (divisi).


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## VonRichter (Aug 21, 2007)

I agree with Peter. Those pieces would be a good test of DVZ's mettle.


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## Pando (Aug 21, 2007)

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## PolarBear (Aug 22, 2007)

Peter Alexander @ Wed Aug 22 said:


> 1. I was there for VSL and heard lots of critiques of early demos, especially Air Force One. At that time, I was a dealer for VSL and heard all sorts of negative comments from composers who came over to demo the library. The very first demo Nick did for QLSO was flamed royally over at another forum.


You are right, later on there were people moaning about imperfections for these. Ok, I won't quote from that threads I think you mean, but rather only link them, now that I've digged it up. There was also bashing of QLSO, as not only an agenda built up again Nick and Doug, but on top the fight to death between the VSL and the QLSO believers began to rise over what the "other" library could not accomplish ever. You'd be amazed how many well-known MIDI gurus and composers explicitely said they liked the QLSO demo and also them and others who liked it back when they heard it first at NAMM. Same goes for the Airforce One demo. Of course my view is not the one of a salesman but only reading the public forums, so you surely have a little more inside knowledge on this side of the business here. http://northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8988 (Link to NS QLSO thread here) and http://northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12315 (Link to NS VSL thread here) - to say the least, many people were "amazed" or more. Not a general consensus about bad quality demo here at all!




> 2. Sorry, but if software must be dedicated to two or more systems, and no other software can run on those computers, then that's a _proprietary system_ and you cannot directly compare VSL, QLSO, or SONiVOX except by caliber of sound since other libraries can reside and operate on the same systems as VSL, QLSO, or SONiVOX.


It's not a proprietary system in the meaning of a closed system! I can buy the library itself, build the required number of PCs, and load it up to these. It also allows me to load VSL, QLSO or SI òê-   `¸ê-   `¹ê-   `ºê-   `»ê-   `¼ê-   `½ê-   `¾ê-   `¿ê-   `Àê-   `Áê-   `Âê-   `Ãê-   `Äê-   `Åê-   `Æê-   `Çê-   `Èê-   `Éê-   `Êê-   `Ëê-   `Ìê-   `Íê-   `Îê-   `Ïê-   `Ðê-   `Ñê-   `Òê-   `Óê-   `Ôê-   `Õê-   `Öê-   `×ê-   `Øê-   `Ùê-   `Úê-   `Ûê-   `Üê-   `Ýê-   `Þê-   `ßê-   `àê-   `áê-   `âê-   `ãê-   `äê-   `åê-   `æê-   `ƒê-   `„ê.   `çê.   `èê.   `éê.   `êê.   `ëê.   `ìê.   `íê.   `îê.   `ïê.   `ðê/   `ñê/   `òê/   `óê/   `ôê/   `õê/   `öê/   `÷ê/   `øê/   `ùê/   `úê/   `ûê/   `üê/   `ýê/   `þê/   `ÿê/   `	 ê/   `	ê/   `	ê/   `	ê/   `	ê/   `	ê/   `	ê/   `	ê/   `	ê/   ` ê/   `	
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## Christian Marcussen (Aug 22, 2007)

Peter - I just read the "VSL" thread which PolarBear just linked to. How can you possibly compare that reaction to A.I? The only time someone said "WOW" to any of the A.I. demos it was followed by "... that's bad".


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## KingIdiot (Aug 22, 2007)

I think alot of us are looking at it from a sample composer and MIDI mockupper angle, where we're used to some instability issues when it comes to HUGE libs triggering lots of voices, and are sometimes used to bouncing stuff off as we go. I believe AI's approach is a full real-time solution, where all articulations (which means all the samples) are loaded, and are on beckon call, an include a "unique" space simulation software in real time as well. Their vision is to have a truly stable "real time" performance set. This pretty much cant be done without building dedicated systems...of course if you knew what you were doing you could probably build the systems yourself.... but I'm sure its fair to say that they'd like to keep things consistent, and building the machines themselves keeps trouble shooting to a minimum.

however...IMNSHO about how this thing is being marketed.

I think the idea of having a 12g system to playback what is breaking down in my eyes as essentially an "intelligent" STRING PATCH is a ludicrous idea. But thats what all this "look what I can do while playing (kinda badly) on a keyboard!!!" is making me feel

So maybe the marketing should shift (just a little) towards anyone who is not a virtuoso piano player. I mean, I don't play the piano well and would never try and play a whole string orchestra at one sitting...because ...frankly I CANT (unless its pretty simple stuff with octaves in the bass...and even that can turn out sloppy)

Maybe they should get Jordan Rudess to do the next real time demo, I'm sure it'll be amazing

I have a distinct feeling that a truly sequenced composition with this thing will probably sound really nice, and hey... every line can played in real time...per track..

and to alot of people it will probably be worth 12g. Many composers (not all of course) will make that back in one or two gigs, and if those guys are working regularly it wont even be a problem for them

but seriously.... do those mockup guys REALLY play in their ENTIRE mockups in realtime in one pass? I know I don't, but maybe I'm more of a hack than I thought I was...

So to AI, I say:

Stop noodling on the keyboard guys. Simple arrangements aren't that hard to sequence, and if the software truly is simple and time saving, it shouldnt take long to put something like that together. I have faith that this product should be able give some good to unbelievable results, with near minimum effort.

as well as, congrats on getting this thing out and together, there is obviously alot of work that went into this. I'm sure the backlash will die down once you figure out how to demo for the public. remember you play with the damn thing everyday, so you're probably excited to hell about the possibilities. The public doesn't and have a hard time imagining the possibilities... so show us some.


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## sbkp (Aug 23, 2007)

Those NS threads were a funny little trip down amnesia lane. Ah, reading quotes of posts from Sharmy -- hey, where'd the original posts go?


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## choc0thrax (Aug 23, 2007)

sbkp @ Thu Aug 23 said:


> Those NS threads were a funny little trip down amnesia lane. Ah, reading quotes of posts from Sharmy -- hey, where'd the original posts go?



Only the truly cool banned NS'ers get their posts removed. I think all of mine are gone too.


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## PolarBear (Aug 23, 2007)

What did you get a warning for here at VI choco? Guess some delicate stuff you spreaded to the world huh...


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## PolarBear (Aug 23, 2007)

Once again, I don't like to see a company like AI with these high goals and ambitions going down the drain. Yet if they aim at the premium level users with a price that high for the string lib without machines even already indicates, they should try to let know their customers they are serious about their stuff and do care for the opinions and suggestions given. That makes customers confident that ultimately they get a fair share out of it and not being left with an empty wallet. And to have invested in a company that could keep up with their promises and provided inspiring and useful material with technical improvements over other solutions.

All the best to you and AI,
PolarBear


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## Peter Alexander (Aug 23, 2007)

My points are:

1. It's the first demo, let's not be too critical.

2. Read their online documentation. Even though it uses Kontakt, you can _only_òê\   `Wê\   `Xê\   `Yê\   `Zê\   `[ê\   `\ê\   `]ê\   `^ê\   `_ê\   ``ê\   `aê\   `bê\   `cê\   `dê\   `eê\   `fê]   `kê]   `lê]   `mê]   `nê]   `oê]   `pê^   `gê^   `hê^   `iê^   `jê^   `qê^   `rê^   `sê^   `tê^   `uê^   `vê^   `wê^   `xê^   `yê^   `zê^   `{ê^   `|ê_   `}ê_   `~ê_   `ê_   `€ê_   `ê_   `‚ê_   `ƒê_   `„ê_   `…ê_   `†ê_   `‡ê_   `ˆê_   `‰ê_   `Šê_   `‹ê_   `Œê_   `ê_   `Žê_   `ê_   `ê_   `‘ê_   `’ê_   `“ê_   `”ê_   `•ê_   `–ê_   `—ê_   `˜ê_   `™ê_   `šê_   `›ê_   `œê_   `ê_   `žê_   `Ÿê_   ` ê_   `¡ê_   `¢ê_   `£ê_   `¤ê_   `


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## Peter Alexander (Aug 23, 2007)

PolarBear @ Thu Aug 23 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Thu Aug 23 said:
> 
> 
> > 2. Read their online documentation. Even though it uses Kontakt, you can _only_ use their sample libraries on _dedicated_ systems.
> ...



Why don't you just e-mail and ask them?


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## PolarBear (Aug 23, 2007)

> Why don't you just e-mail and ask them?


Actually I thought there was nothing to ask as it was and still is clear to me from their website. Besides - did I put any questions in my last post? I was referring to the info they gave on their package #07 (which they presumably falsely labeled 70) as described on the website if that information may have been missing in my last post. I cannot find these infos you are putting up here and maybe hurting their business with...

What are you trying to get across to me with this?

PolarBear


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Aug 25, 2007)

Ok.

Well, I understand what this library does and what they are trying to accomplish, but the sound of the strings does not sound right to me at all. The sound quality in itself on how a single note sounds to me, just doesn't compare to QL or VSL.

I realize that spatial quality and such is important, but above all I look for the tone and sound quality, and after that I look for things such as legato, then you can argue all about the organ effect.


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## VonRichter (Oct 19, 2007)

I'm still refraining from having an opinion on AI until they post more demos... have they yet?

I don't think it's possible to really know if it's any good yet with just a single realtime jam demo.


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## alanb (Oct 19, 2007)

Pando @ Tue Aug 21 said:


> . . . no matter how much $$ and technology someone throws at it, one can not emulate a convincing string orchestra by hammering away with ten fingers on the keyboard.


Personally, I'm very happy that way... it helps undercut the argument/accusation that sample-based music is inherently "bad" because it easily puts live musicians out of work. 

To my mind, that argument/accusation suffers from many flaws but, as long as it still requires considerable time, effort, and conscious choices to produce an amazing performance from samples (_i.e._, it's not as simple as firing up Garage Band, typing for two minutes and squeezing out a stunning orchestral presentation), then this whole means of music creation/production maintains its "aura of artistry" . . . 

[I'm reminded of the Monty Python "Crunchy Frog" sketch... "_but our sales would plummet_..."]

-- Alan


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 20, 2007)

choc0thrax @ Tue Aug 21 said:


> Don't worry about understanding Polar, you'll just hurt yourself. 8) Hey Polar what do you mean wasn't the case with EWQLSO. Maybe my memory sucks but weren't there a lot of people who criticized Nick's first demo?



I have no opinion of AI other than it's a cool concept.

Actually the first EWQLSO was a phenomenal success. About 95% of the people posting on NS were really impressed. We pre-sold copies to pretty much every established composer from that demo and when Thomas' demos came out, things really started moving. What you remember is all the negative crap that we endured, and perhaps deserved at times, over the next 2 years. The forums do not mirror the real world exactly. This is due to the fact that the more you get work and the more successful you get, the less likely you are to participate in a forum.


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## choc0thrax (Oct 20, 2007)

I was thinking of that like first demo posted that sounded like Signs. Think there was some people who were not too fond of it. Remember Sovereign getting banned at some point. 8)


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 20, 2007)

No that's the one. It showed off the basic sound and the orders poured in. Houston Hayes didn't like it. I consider that a compliment.


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## Sovereign (Oct 21, 2007)

choc0thrax @ Sat Oct 20 said:


> I was thinking of that like first demo posted that sounded like Signs. Think there was some people who were not too fond of it. Remember Sovereign getting banned at some point. 8)


Actually that was because I kept arguing VSL had more realism due to the legato stuff. Then I got accused of working for VSL and my account was temporarily suspended! :roll: :lol:


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## Christian Marcussen (Oct 21, 2007)

Sovereign @ Sun Oct 21 said:


> choc0thrax @ Sat Oct 20 said:
> 
> 
> > I was thinking of that like first demo posted that sounded like Signs. Think there was some people who were not too fond of it. Remember Sovereign getting banned at some point. 8)
> ...



hehe... gotta love stuff like that :D


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## chikitin (Jun 27, 2008)

All the links are dead!!:((


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## RiffWraith (Jun 27, 2008)

chikitin @ Sat Jun 28 said:


> All the links are dead!!:((



Heh, funny - I went to their page the other day, and it says "our new site launching soon - please check back mid-july"

I would not at all be surprised if that by the end of August we see, "well, sorry folks, but..."

I do not see this product ever actually making it into poroduction. I think they were counting on x-number of people buying it for TWELVE THOUSAND DOLLARS FOR ONLY THE STRINGS sight unseen, which would have pumped alot of money into their dev. But I am sure this is not what happened.

Oh well - another one bites the dust.


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## ComposerDude (Jun 27, 2008)

They began with such a potentially marvelous sample base -- 192K sampling of the LSO...it's too bad they've hit a rough bit of ground now. Developing high-quality software and sampleware is quite "non-trivial". I wish them all the best and hope that their thus-far considerable efforts culminate in a really great product.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 27, 2008)

"I do not see this product ever actually making it into poroduction."

Care to place a wager on that?


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## Peter Alexander (Jun 27, 2008)

It has the potential, but I think given the economy, if they started with a more simple package in Kontakt format and then built to the super package, that would give them cash flow and a wide global base to draw from.


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## wonshu (Jun 27, 2008)

I have heard the demo in person and talked to the guy behind it, nice fellow, and good sounds.

It would be sad if they went under, because it really was a good concept. Just way too expensive...


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## choc0thrax (Jun 27, 2008)

Sorry AI but July belongs to Project Sam. =o


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## Ranietz (Jun 28, 2008)

Well... They're relaunching their website in mid-july so at least something is happening...


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## Ed (Jun 28, 2008)

New website will say:

"GREAT NEWS!! AI has teamed up with Gary Garritan and will be making exclusive material for the new Garritan Personal Orchestra. AI has long been a fan of the magnificent Garritan Personal Orchestra and hope that our $23,000,000,000 library can live up to such a high bar"


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## Pzy-Clone (Jun 28, 2008)

well..has anybody actualy seen or tried this?
i mean demos....listen to the demos at VSL, most (with exeptions...)of them are also not very convincing, or Sonivox...

I just think people are unfair towards the project based on some demos...
so its realy pricy, mmkayy, and maybe it actualy doesnt sound wonderful, but then again id wanna try it before making up my mind...

In the end, i think it must be discouraging to see all the negative comments that are coming towards something that has clearly been under heavy development for the last years... this COULD be seen as a potential good addition to your library options, even if it is not to everyones prefered liking?

Altho for the price..one should xpect something astronomical...

but still...its kinda petty to slam something to death one hasnt even tried.


----------



## Waywyn (Jun 28, 2008)

Pzy-Clone @ Sat Jun 28 said:


> well..has anybody actualy seen or tried this?
> i mean demos....listen to the demos at VSL, most (with exeptions...)of them are also not very convincing, or Sonivox...
> 
> I just think people are unfair towards the project based on some demos...
> ...



Hey man,

I hear you, but to make it short and I think I speak for several others:
AI was introduced like quite a "few" months before. So they demonstrate all those features with divisi, articulations and that it will be in 192Khz etc. and then there was nothing for a long time. I thought to myself, damn, they optimize, they tweak, they reprogram and finalize ...

... and so a few months later I hear a demo which basically consists of several minutes noodling down some licks, chords and patches. Of course quite in a very professional dexterity and virtuosity, but the sound was almost synth like and all those tiny little things like legato simpy wasn't there ... the notes just overlapped and it had an almost GM-ish character by listening to it, even the highly praised orchestra hall and distance micing sounded like dry/wet average reverb module. Some stuff and articulations sounded better, some ... well ... not good. I was dissapointed, especially that THIS should costs around 12k for strings ONLY.

I mean I know that demos are not the only thing to judge a library, but it should represent or show the product in a way, that the user knows what's able to do with it ... and in my opinion this didn't happen.

Seriously, it is simply NOT possible to just play a whole string section in one take and covering several fast and special articulations in realtime. There must be final tweaking etc.

The other thing was, one of the main arguments was to have the final result simply printed out on paper to be ready for the orchestra session. I mean why should I need 5 PCs, 192KHz stuff if it would be not used in the end anyway. I can do that with Edirol orchestra 


To mention that again. I really can imagine what the developers went through, how much, time and blood was shed for this project. I am really sure that it might sound way better then it was represented and I highly appreciate the different way of developing the guys had in mind.

In the end I simply had the feeling that the project goals where put a little bit too high. 192Khz, all those divisi, 5PC which can't handle anything else etc. .. why not starting of with 24bit, 44,1 Khz and a light version to see if the concept will run the market. Maybe there are composers who like the general system but don't want to have 5 PCs in their studio. Just something to make their strings be prepared for the orchestrator or orchestra session ...


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## wonshu (Jun 28, 2008)

@Waywin:

sounds like a real keyboard guy did the demo... which is probably what happened...

I hate keyboard programmer... they play everything at once and lose the whole aspect of the vertical line...


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## Peter Alexander (Jun 28, 2008)

As you're (Pzy-Clone) a relatively new member (May 2008) you weren't here at the beginning to see the enormous enthusiam given Audio Impressions, largely off of one poorly recorded demo done at Summer NAMM 2006(?). 

You may not have seen the studio diagram they posted on their site showing a very complex dedicated, and expensive, computer setup, whereas today, two years later, having dual core and quad core on the PC is pretty common stuff. That alone should help bring down the price. 

Throughout this what has been asked of A.I. by members of this forum, are demos that have been sequenced. The two demos we've heard have both been of Christopher Stone (the developer) playing on the keyboard. Chris has a magnificent playing technique. But many of us here are guitarists, or drummers, who lack Christopher Stone's keyboard proficiency. 

So the request has been please give us a few traditionally sequenced demos.

That request has been met by A.I. with silence. 

Even their corporate communications are somewhat bizarre. Where other developers come here and openly talk about what they're doing and field questions, the AI people don't usually answer, and when they do, it's not direct, it's through another VI member, often Frederick Russ! 

With such silence nobody really knows what to think or how to perceive the company. 

We saw within this offering a strong problem/solution package. And many of us were ready to buy, including myself.

But the other issues that came up at the time were the hardware configurations, the three different software programs required to make it work (K2, FX Teleport and Audio Mulch), and the lack of a clearly defined technical support program given that the three programs needed to run the package have tech support centers in Germany, Russia, and Australia (and we haven't heard from Max at FX Teleport in a very long time). Our collective experience with tech support here is that you're not going to get thrògù   }Ò8gù   }Ò9gù   }Ò:gú   }Ò;gú   }Ò<gú   }Ò=gú   }Ò>gú   }Ò?gú   }Ò@gú   }ÒAgú   }ÒBgú   }ÒCgú   }ÒDgú   }ÒEgú   }ÒFgú   }ÒGgú   }ÒHgú   }ÒIgú   }ÒJgú   }ÒKgú   }ÒLgú   }ÒMgú   }ÒNgú   }ÒOgú   }ÒPgú   }ÒQgú   }ÒRgú   }ÒSgú   }ÒTgú   }ÒUgú   }ÒVgú   }ÒWgú   }ÒXgú   }ÒYgú   }ÒZgú   }Ò[gú   }Ò\gú   }Ò]gú   }Ò^gú   }Ò_gú   }Ò`gú   }Òagú   }Òbgú   }Òcgú   }Òdgú   }Òegú


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## Peter Alexander (Jun 28, 2008)

Waywyn @ Sat Jun 28 said:


> wonshu @ Sat Jun 28 said:
> 
> 
> > @Waywin:
> ...



Here's something you DON'T know about Chris Stone. He IS one of the top demo guys going. He did many many demos for E-MU in the past. Here's his IMDB profile:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0006306/


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## Waywyn (Jun 28, 2008)

Peter Alexander @ Sat Jun 28 said:


> Waywyn @ Sat Jun 28 said:
> 
> 
> > wonshu @ Sat Jun 28 said:
> ...



Well as I already said, no doubt about his awesome skills as a talented and successful composer ...
I am sure he is also a really nice and very charismatic person ... but we are not anymore in the "EMU age".


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## lux (Jun 28, 2008)

Waywyn @ Sat Jun 28 said:


> ... but we are not anymore in the "EMU age".



Sadly. Less details and more art. Nice times...


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## Pzy-Clone (Jun 28, 2008)

Peter Alexander:
well,. but you are missing the point...

I was perhaps not right HERE when it was announced, but i was very much alive, and remember the general response it got around different communeties..

My point is just...be supportive, open and including towards such a ambitious and large idea...(or any idea...) you dont HAVE to buy it in the end, just becouse it there anyway, or you dont like it.

I dont see why you are entitled to have support or any relationship with a company you didnt spend a single cent on ...?

I can fully understand why the developers wont answer any questions, or even come here to read them when its mostly negative comments, that must be very discouraging after spending years on developing something...

I just find it unlogical...its like complaining on a house you havent bought.
Just dont buy it then, if its not to your liking. No one is holding a gun to your head.


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## bryla (Jun 28, 2008)

Hmmm... but they really wan't people on forums like this to buy this product, right?


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## Niah (Jun 28, 2008)

Pzy-Clone @ Sat Jun 28 said:


> Peter Alexander:
> well,. but you are missing the point...
> 
> I was perhaps not right HERE when it was announced, but i was very much alive, and remember the general response it got around different communeties..
> ...




That was not my experience at all. 


I agree with Peter by the time of their first NAMM demo I saw alof enthusiasm here myself included. 
The negative remarks only came way after, with the 192 controversy, the posting of the first offical demo and price revealed.

Honestly I don't think AI doesn't participate here because of the negative comments, usually it's only when negative posts start to appear that developpers participate. As far as I know AI hasn't participate in any other forum.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 28, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Jun 28 said:


> "I do not see this product ever actually making it into poroduction."
> 
> Care to place a wager on that?



Nope - I ain't a bettin' man. Why - do you feel strongly otherwise, and if so, why?


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## Peter Alexander (Jun 28, 2008)

Pzy-Clone @ Sat Jun 28 said:


> Peter Alexander:
> well,. but you are missing the point...
> 
> I was perhaps not right HERE when it was announced, but i was very much alive, and remember the general response it got around different communeties..
> ...



Overall, I am supportive.



> I dont see why you are entitled to have support or any relationship with a company you didnt spend a single cent on ...?



This is a marketing concept. Relationships build trust, especially with new products, and especially with new products that are extremely expensive. As an example, before Vienna released the First Edition, their forum was up, active, and answering questions from people. This relationship building BEFORE the sale built trust. At NAMM, once we met the people and heard the library, sales were virtually instantaneous. I was seated outside their NAMM booth and after each demonstration by Paul Steinbauer, watched composers literally RUN to the ILIO booth to place an order. 

As a relatively new company, still only a few years old, Vienna has consistently maintained that trust. 

How companies deal with people BEFORE the sale is just as important as how they deal with customers AFTER the sale. 

It's not an issue of entitlement.



> I can fully understand why the developers wont answer any questions, or even come here to read them when its mostly negative comments, that must be very discouraging after spending years on developing something...



Virtually all software and hardware are eventually sold by word-of-mouth. Forums like this are a secondary beta site where developers can get a lot of questions answered. This forum is VERY supportive overall to developers.



> I just find it unlogical...its like complaining on a house you havent bought.
> Just dont buy it then, if its not to your liking. No one is holding a gun to your head.



In some parts of the US, $12,000 is a 25% down payment on a house. Before I buy, I need to trust the seller, see the house, then, bring in an inspector to check the house before I buy it. That's how the process works. 

But a sample library, or system as offered by AI, is not a house. Unless you're either at the NAMM show or in L.A., you can't see it. And you certainly can't inspect it. Demos are a partial answer. But in the end, someone of trust needs to play the system, thoroughly try it out, and then report back so others can determine if buying that particular library is the right thing to do for them.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 29, 2008)

Peter Alexander @ Sat Jun 28 said:


> Pzy-Clone @ Sat Jun 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Peter Alexander:
> ...



This forum is VERY supportive overall to SOME developers, less so to others.

Anyway, I have talked a number of times to Chris's marketing guy, Cary. I have told him frankly that while I am excited about the possibilities of the technology and the potential of the library, the multi computer setup is what many of us want to move away from, not gravitate to. He understands that and says they are working hard to try and move towards that and to make it less expensive. 

I for one, am hoping they succeed, whether I end up buying it or not. But then again I root for all developers to succeed who work hard at what they do.


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## midphase (Jun 29, 2008)

I think the best thing that could happen to AI and their DVZ library is that they release their library as software-only to work on one computer (with relatively high specs) for a price that people view as workable (ie. definitely not higher than Sonivox).


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## Craig Sharmat (Jun 29, 2008)

2 things here...

1. i agree with Kays that a solution where one does not have to buy computers set up their way would help as it inflates the cost....in other words as he said, a software solution. If you eliminate the need to buy their computers it changes the situation. the cost of the actual product without the comps is not out of line.

2. Like all libraries out there the creator conceived of a product that would best suit their personal needs and then decided the public might want this. In Chris's case and probably a lot of keyboard composers situations a "call it up" and play solution is optimum. Of course being able to fine tune the performance so that it can be delivered as a final product would help sell units, and that has not been demonstrated at this time.


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## Pzy-Clone (Jun 29, 2008)

Mr Alexander.

... i wonder....12.000usd is 25% of a house? wow. Thats crazy...*considers moving* 
You cant get anything decent (or anything actualy) for under 400.000usd around here these days.
...but when you buy a house, the seller tells you what you want to hear, only to discover that the roof is leaky, and there is a raccoon living under your sink afterwards.

I think we should just take it as it is, when its ready...if its ever ready.
BUt i do agree tho...its weird that they spend all them money and time on something, then dont comply to requests to come up with better demos in 2 years. That is under the assumption that it CAN produce better demos offcourse...

JUst ....give these guys a break u know, what is this anyway, the sample inquisition?


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## bryla (Jun 29, 2008)

12.000 USD is 25% of the DOWN PAYMENT... not the whole house


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## nikolas (Jun 29, 2008)

Problem was (and is) quite simple I think.

The idea is AWESOME! The practice seems almost outwordly! And the demos do NOT live up to the idea and technology behind it! Plus it's been too long, people are wondering (and so am I, actually).

In combination to the given price (to which there's been a constant misunderstanding, since the price, if I recall correctly includes a few computers for the system), it created a weird vibe. When you get tons smaller stuff (less than 1 GB), like the trumpet, or pianoteq, or the WIVI stuff, which sound very good, indeed, (pianoteq is 15 MB!!!!!!!!!!!) one does wonder why the huge system, awesome idea, technology, etc, is not showing in that one demo... 

It's just too big to bypass, I think. And unfortunately the demo is not shining... :(

I will wait and see the final product of course, and really hope they do get to release it! Right now there seems to be a... worrying silence from their behalf. But I do realise that one needs to be careful to what they say!


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## Daryl (Jun 29, 2008)

The biggest problem as I see it is that the whole idea is based on some kind of ensemble building, but this has not ever been proven to work with any library ever yet produced.AI sounded bad when it was first released, and although the idea is brilliant, it doesn't alter the fact that the latest demos that have been posted still sound bad.

A string sample library is not terribly hard to get sort of right, but the programming angle hasn't been thought out fully by any developer yet. Mind you, it would need an awful lot of automatic functions, because many composers don't have a clue about string playing, and this is partly why there is no definitive string sample library, and no really good demos.

D


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## lux (Jun 29, 2008)

Ashermusic @ Sun Jun 29 said:


> This forum is VERY supportive overall to SOME developers, less so to others.



This place often misses honest statements. This is a good one. And i agree with it.



midphase @ Sun Jun 29 said:


> I think the best thing that could happen to AI and their DVZ library is that they release their library as software-only to work on one computer (with relatively high specs) for a price that people view as workable (ie. definitely not higher than Sonivox).



I think this summarizes everything.


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## midphase (Jun 29, 2008)

Jus to be absolutely clear....12.000 USD is 25% downpayment on a house only in a place that calls this "downtown":

http://www.disco-tech.org/snydertexas2.jpg


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## JohnnyMarks (Jul 14, 2008)

AI roll-out in Chatsworth on the 26th. Costs you ten bucks though!


The audioMIDI.com Film & TV Composition Clinic
Saturday, July 26th, 2008 from 10 am to 4 pm in Chatsworth, CA.

Please join the creators of Audio Impressions for the first public preview of their release version DVZ Strings, Ai's virtual instruments and high-resolution 70 piece orchestral string library.

Ai's DVZ Strings includes samples of priceless Stradivari and Guarneri instruments and it features groundbreaking and never-before-available technologies developed to produce real-time, real-world orchestral balance for accurate score transcription. Included is Audio Impressions' SPACE, Decca Tree and microphone cross-bleed simulation software with continuously variable room size and acoustic adjustments to once-and-for-all eliminate the overdubbed sound that has characterized sample libraries of the past.

Audio Impressions' future releases include DVZ Winds, DVZ Brass, and Ai Percussion. Audio Impressions Realtime Instruments Libraries are ideal for film, TV and videogame composers with demanding deadlines and for live theater performances; as well, they are essential tools for music education.

More information, price and availability will be appearing on our website shortly: www.audioimpressions.com

Ai's Keynote speakers
Chris Stone, Film and TV Composer and CEO of Audio Impressions, Inc.
Joel Goldsmith, Film/TV composer for Stargate: The Ark of Truth, Stargate: Atlantis and Call of Duty 3
Kevin Kiner, Film and TV Composer for CSI: Miami, Star Wars: The Clone Wars

Presenters
Apple, Apogee, Ilio, Native Instruments, Yellow Tools, Steinberg, Mark Of The Unicorn, Antelope Audio, JBL, Equator Audio, Euphonix, Celemony,
Audio Impressions and ADAM Professional Audio.

The Details
AudioMIDI.com in Chatsworth, CA.
10 am to 4 pm on July 26th, 2008.
FREE parking and refreshments.
Admission is $10, and is refundable on any $10 or more purchase.
Please call (818) 993-0772 if you have any questions.

http://go.ennectevent.com/SitePages/Index.aspx?eventID=1237 (http://go.ennectevent.com/SitePages/Ind ... entID=1237)

Participants, Vendors, and Guest Speakers subject to change.


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## Synesthesia (Jul 14, 2008)

???????

They want to charge people 10 bucks to see a preview of their sample lib?

Hold the front page.
(o)


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## Daryl (Jul 14, 2008)

Synesthesia @ Mon Jul 14 said:


> ???????
> 
> They want to charge people 10 bucks to see a preview of their sample lib?
> 
> ...


Be fair. It's not just AI presenting there, and who's to say that they receive any of the entrance fee money. Not that I would cross the road to see this product in action until I'd heard a demo that was worth listening to, if only for a few seconds. Everything so far that I've heard sounds dreadful.

D


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## Synesthesia (Jul 14, 2008)

Whoops..

I read:


> The audioMIDI.com Film & TV Composition Clinic
> Saturday, July 26th, 2008 from 10 am to 4 pm in Chatsworth, CA.
> 
> Please join the creators of Audio Impressions for the first public preview of their release version DVZ Strings, Ai's virtual instruments and high-resolution 70 piece orchestral string library.



and failed to notice the list of others there!

I geddit. 

Still, maybe its fixed now. I still worry when I see such things as 'decca tree .. simulation software'

:shock:


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## tmhuud (Jul 14, 2008)

wow. Thanks for posting this. I can't wait to see this event.


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## wqaxsz (Feb 3, 2009)

Hi,

here's a new video:

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2009/02/03/wnamm09-audio-impressions-dvz-strings-20/

Regards


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## RiffWraith (Feb 3, 2009)

Thanks for posting.

Watched the video. It's impressive, and it's not.

It's definitely a new way of wroking, and from that perspective, is pretty cool. But, I was unimpressed with the way it sounds. It sounds good - but it sounds like a sample library. In the hands of the same person, I don't see how this is going to sound better than EWQL, or VSL.

Cheers.


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## choc0thrax (Feb 3, 2009)

Neat organ sounds.


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## Simon Ravn (Feb 3, 2009)

I think the tone, vibrato etc sounds good. If you can work with these samples just like any other plugin/library it could be cool However, I think it has a hefty pricetag if I recall..?


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## Ashermusic (Feb 3, 2009)

RiffWraith @ Tue Feb 03 said:


> Thanks for posting.
> 
> Watched the video. It's impressive, and it's not.
> 
> ...



It doesn't have to sound better, only as good, with its amazing functionality.


----------



## choc0thrax (Feb 3, 2009)

Simon Ravn @ Tue Feb 03 said:


> I think the tone, vibrato etc sounds good. If you can work with these samples just like any other plugin/library it could be cool However, I think it has a hefty pricetag if I recall..?



It is $2399.00


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## IvanP (Feb 3, 2009)

I quite like the tone, I think it was a nice improvement over first versions, but I think it still needs some more accurate programming, some transitions sound clunky, 
but, overall, the timbre "openess" of the string is there IMHO...


----------



## synthetic (Feb 3, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Tue Feb 03 said:


> Neat organ sounds.



Why won't they publish a demo where the string parts are played like a string arrangement? He always wants to play it live, and it sounds like an organ because he plays it from a keyboard. 

I guess the point of the library is that you can improvise from a keyboard and it will sound like a string arrangement, though.


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## artsoundz (Feb 3, 2009)

I think, overall, Chris Stone made his case with this video. I'm very happy for the guy. He persevered and came up with what seems a very viable offering.


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## Waywyn (Feb 3, 2009)

synthetic @ Tue Feb 03 said:


> choc0thrax @ Tue Feb 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Neat organ sounds.
> ...



I just thought the exact same thing as watching the video. I could be totally wrong tho, but how many composers in the world working with samples, play the total string section live into the sequencer and then move on to brass or woods? 20%, maybe 30%?? Then I think only 5 to 10% of these 30% use this live played version as a final mix.

Honestly I think the sound has improved and I start to like the tone, but I would really love to hear a well composed and worked out demo by making use of all controllers and automations with this software.


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## RiffWraith (Feb 3, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Wed Feb 04 said:


> Neat organ sounds.



Ha!



VisionDaw.com said:


> DVZ® provides the identical real-time chord divisions used by live musicians ending 25 years of organ sounding samples.



:lol:


----------



## Jack Weaver (Feb 3, 2009)

I feel I could work with what is presented here.

I work differently than Chris - since I’m not a good keyboardist (the mother of all understatements). Maybe some of you out there are in the same boat as me in this respect. I’m willing to bet that I could (and most of us reading this) achieve good results (better results than what we’ve heard in the various DVZ demos to date) playing in single lines independently and using the realtime controls to tweak the sound and using the 5 stems within a larger mix template. 

I’ve seen DVZ in person three times is the past couple of years. It gets better all the time. It will probably continue to get better. The interface is quite straight forward and almost all of the controls seem useful. The realtime time spread and pitch spread are the real difference makers. Nobody else has anything approaching these. If I get this I would be cranking those two knobs all day and night - literally.

My guess is that all the purchasers of this will already own other good strings libraries and will choose to continue to use them in conjunction with AI. This is a great tool. It does have an identifiable sound that could become commonplace in the market. For many òÉƒ   ”:cÉƒ   ”:dÉƒ   ”:eÉƒ   ”:fÉƒ   ”:gÉƒ   ”:hÉƒ   ”:iÉƒ   ”:jÉƒ   ”:kÉƒ   ”:lÉƒ   ”:mÉƒ   ”:nÉƒ   ”:oÉƒ   ”Éƒ   ”:qÉƒ   ”:rÉƒ   ”:sÉƒ   ”:tÉƒ   ”:uÉƒ   ”:vÉƒ   ”:wÉƒ   ”:xÉƒ   ”:yÉƒ   ”:zÉƒ   ”:{Éƒ   ”:|Éƒ   ”:}Éƒ   ”:~Éƒ   ”:Éƒ   ”:€Éƒ   ”:Éƒ   ”:‚Éƒ   ”:ƒÉƒ   ”:„Éƒ   ”:…Éƒ   ”:†Éƒ   ”:‡Éƒ   ”:ˆÉƒ   ”:‰Éƒ   ”:ŠÉƒ   ”:‹Éƒ   ”:ŒÉƒ   ”:Éƒ   ”:ŽÉ„   ”:É„   ”:É„   ”:‘É„   ”:’É„   ”:“É„   ”:”É„   ”:•É„   ”:–É„   ”:—É„   ”:˜É„   ”:™É„   ”:šÉ„   ”:›É„   ”:œÉ„   ”:É„   ”:žÉ„   ”:ŸÉ„   ”: É„   ”:¡É„   ”:¢É„   ”:£É„   ”:¤É„   ”:


----------



## Niah (Feb 3, 2009)

RiffWraith @ Tue Feb 03 said:


> choc0thrax @ Wed Feb 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Neat organ sounds.
> ...



Those were the best years of my life.


----------



## PolarBear (Feb 3, 2009)

Yeah Craig... I was getting after that "true indication of what the library sounds like"


----------



## Jack Weaver (Feb 3, 2009)

Yeah, it is totally wacky that there is no demo yet. However, obviously Chris knows this and has his reasons. It certainly is by choice. Maybe it's because it didn't work properly with sequencers until recently. I know they're still polishing the Logic interface. But apparently the other major sequencer packages are working fine. 

He could've had a version of this in the hands of the many qualified demo artists anywhere along the line and had a good demo. That's the thing about all the good demo artists that we've become familiar with - they can make just about anything shine in the dark.

Note: In this video demo Chris does allude to the fact that the audio is going directly into the camera as opposed to being wild audio. Even when he demonstrates Space you can tell that the panning is correctly imaged. (In the demo room Space was being bussed into Altiverb.)

I think it sounds pretty good. Their concept of controllers is simple and ingenious. 

I also must admit that their approach to marketing is unique.


----------



## gsilbers (Feb 3, 2009)

damn that sounded bad. why not sponsor a composer in exchange for good demos.

i agree that they need to have a library that can be used one computer. maybe a light version for the "basic" articulation.


----------



## Christian Marcussen (Feb 4, 2009)

Well. It's not for me. But I would be interested in hearing a mockup done the "standard" way.


----------



## Lex (Feb 4, 2009)

lol....nothing beats the part at about 13:00...

"I do this, ummm, and I do that...and...." PLING PLONG! PLONG! PLONG!PLING!PLING!BOING!


----------



## gsilbers (Feb 4, 2009)

hmm.. after viewing the video and all these posts i think this company has the problem of being managed by musicians and not businessmen. we all hate them but they do know their shiite. 

seems there is no clear goal, vision, follow through, deadlines, planning, structure etc .

its been well over 3 years since i 1st saw this library at namm (4 years maybe) 

yet, look at what EW, vienna, etc have done since then.... oh, you say they are big companies? 

they weren't before.. 

and look at LASS which just came out and already people are paying lotsa of attention.
(and not mocking them like in this thread) 

clearly dvz has a good product , could full fill a niche and grow from there, but no demo, 
not a good PR campaign to explain their product and "available soon" for over 2 years in their site.. 
:roll: 

if they need to compose for TV then GO COMPOSE YOUR MOViE AND LET BUSINESS GUYS DEAL WITH THE REST!!! 

but to each his own, if they feel they are doing good then fine.


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## PolarBear (Feb 4, 2009)

LASS came out already? Oh knows...


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## Andrew Aversa (Feb 5, 2009)

The reason it has taken awhile is because they're continuously refining it. They don't want to release a product that isn't done and then get even more criticism. Having spoken with people at the company, I can assure you they're not twiddling their thumbs - they're actively working on it and WANT to release it. But they don't want to release it before it's ready.


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## gsilbers (Feb 5, 2009)

PolarBear @ Wed Feb 04 said:


> LASS came out already? Oh knows...



i meant the company.. my bad.


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