# Why VSL (still) rocks



## richhickey (May 14, 2019)

Very neat video of Rite of Spring intro mockup and look into the VSL techniques utilized:


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## Lee Blaske (May 14, 2019)

Really makes you wonder why they're investing so much time switching things over to Synchron.


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## Eptesicus (May 14, 2019)

I disagree. VSL have lost their way.


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## richhickey (May 14, 2019)

Eptesicus said:


> I disagree. VSL have lost their way.



That VSL tech (player, samples) still rocks, holds its own against the latest from any vendor, and is still sold. As for company direction, who knows, but another thread on that would be tedious. The video is about using a sample library and player to its fullest.


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## Dewdman42 (May 14, 2019)

I agree VSL is heading in some strange directions in the pursuit of revenue, but a company does have to make revenue to stay in business, so hope they can find a way to do it without destroying the gorgeous library they created to begin with.

Stephen's video posted above is superb, one of the best tutorials I have seen for using the VSL libraries with nuance, I hope we can see some more like that.


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## dsblais (May 14, 2019)

richhickey said:


> That VSL tech (player, samples) still rocks, holds its own against the latest from any vendor, and is still sold. As for company direction, who knows, but another thread on that would be tedious. The video is about using a sample library and player to its fullest.


It really is an amazingly flexible piece of software and the samples are very well produced. I could imagine a future in 20 years where the VI series will be the JP-8 of the orchestral VI world. Sure, there will be considerably more realistic [modeled] VIs by then, but there's a way it did what it did so well, much of what follows will be (or is) a poor imitation.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 14, 2019)

I think that the recent criticism on this forum is a bit overdramatized. Sometimes people have these irrational notions about change and stuff. I think the Synchron Player is being viewed with a kind of mistrust that I struggle to rationalize. Add in the fact that Synchron Strings wasn't quite the burner that many expected it to be (although even that library is over-bashed, and while it has serious shortcomings, it also sounds brilliant in other areas), and the quite extensive effort to move some of the major libraries to the new format, and all of a sudden there's some kind of diffuse paranoia and superstition going on.

I'm kind of warming up to the Synchron Player. It's obviously the better host for the multi-mic synchron libraries, and I'm coming to appreciate some of its functions for older libraries like Dimension Strings as well. There's still some odd quirks and some missing quality of life functionality, but that's normal for such a complex piece of software. VI Pro didn't fall from the sky in sublime and complete perfection from the get-go either.

I get that probably owners of the original VI line libraries might feel bewildered by the Synchron-isation of those products. But seriously, who cares. You got the VI version, you're happy with it, what's the problem.

Some of the latest business practices do seem to be more oriented towards a quicker turnaround. But on the other hand, it's all a tossup - some other manufacturers' stuff is notoriously overpriced, or they have a no-re-sell policy, some people get seriously riled up by the tone of some companies' marketing, whatever. To this day, no sample library developer ever manged to force me into buying something I didn't want to.

To me, it still comes down to world-class, unparelleled libraries like the VSL Woodwinds or the Dimension Strings and the brilliant spatialisation and hosting software, and that's why VSL is still a mainstay in my setup and in my projects. And if they follow up with new modern generation releases like the Synchron Percussion, I don't see that changing any time soon.


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## Michael Antrum (May 14, 2019)

I just got the new Epic Orchestra 2.0 with VePro, and downloaded it for a play. I found the Oboe D'amour and the Cornet absolutely stunningly playable. Really surprised me.


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## Ben (May 14, 2019)

Michael Antrum said:


> I just got the new Epic Orchestra 2.0 with VePro, and downloaded it for a play. I found the Oboe D'amour and the Cornet absolutely stunningly playable. Really surprised me.


These are so fun to play. Sometimes I put the App strings on the left side of the keyboard and a legato patch of the oboe or the cornet on the right side and just enjoy playing.


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## shawnsingh (May 14, 2019)

And there's also the brilliant, beautiful Synchron Pianos. I have the CFX and its great.


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## kitekrazy (May 14, 2019)

Michael Antrum said:


> I just got the new Epic Orchestra 2.0 with VePro, and downloaded it for a play. I found the Oboe D'amour and the Cornet absolutely stunningly playable. Really surprised me.



What's nice is when they have a sale every month you can get more advanced versions of those. If it weren't for some of their odd policies I would buy more. It is one of the few developers where you can buy one piece at a time.


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## BlackDorito (May 14, 2019)

kitekrazy said:


> What's nice is when they have a sale every month you can get more advanced versions of those. If it weren't for some of their odd policies I would buy more. It is one of the few developers where you can buy one piece at a time.


I kinda have the opposite perspective. I have the full SE, which were among my first VI purchases. Those were 'good deals'. Yes, VSL updates their offers each month, but for me at least they have not had the sort of audacious sales that Spitfire, Steinberg, OT and others seem to have. I think in the VSL model (... this is just my opinion), I have not yet made the leap from dabbler to big-time spender on the full versions of their VI collections. Instead, I've been beguiled by the excellent demos and killer deals of other vendors in recent years. I suppose VSL is staying above the fray and letting the other developers slug it out in discount-land ... but hey, that's where the action is for us users. Even though you have lots of options to purchase individual VSL instruments, moving beyond the SE collection in any comprehensive fashion is quite expensive, even when other VI-C members are selling their VSL libraries at half-price. It's particularly problematic for Special Edition owners who already have a basic set of instruments and articulations.

I don't begrudge what VSL is doing, even if I don't seem to be their ideal customer - in fact I use their software every day. I haven't been using their libraries recently however, because I'm spending my time with Spitfire, OT and Cinematic Studio. I studied Rite of Spring very deeply many years ago and I appreciate what the mockup above represents. But it is safe to say a larger core of users are interested in Evos, Labs, textures, epic stuff, etc. That's where the momentum has been in recent years. [Maybe too much momentum] Upgrading with VSL to get one more dynamic layer, half-note sampling, and extra articulations, for each instrument one after another .... nope, not audacious enough.


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## EgM (May 14, 2019)

I just hope they're not planning on making Vienna Instruments/Pro obsolete... They can milk their Synchron player all they want but it's not for me. VI/P is perfectly fine.


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## dsblais (May 14, 2019)

Of course, if they _really_ wanted to turn a buck, they'd just have to no longer require a dongle. Instant billions!


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## EgM (May 14, 2019)

dsblais said:


> Of course, if they _really_ wanted to turn a buck, they'd just have to no longer require a dongle. Instant billions!



Because the piracy control works so well for Kontakt


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 14, 2019)

The latest VE Pro is really good (as are the previous ones), and the plug-ins that come with it are outstanding.

That exciter is by far the most transparent one I've used. It's worth it just for that.

To be honest, the Epic Orchestra doesn't knock me out, but I do like the Synchron player.


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## EgM (May 14, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The latest VE Pro is really good (as are the previous ones), and the plug-ins that come with it are outstanding.
> 
> That exciter is by far the most transparent one I've used. It's worth it just for that.
> 
> To be honest, the Epic Orchestra doesn't knock me out, but I do like the Synchron player.



To be fair, I don't *hate* it. I just don't think it adds anything to all their libraries I already have using VI/P.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 14, 2019)

Lee Blaske said:


> Really makes you wonder why they're investing so much time switching things over to Synchron.



My guess is because it's a lot easier to use, especially out of the box.

But the truth is that many of their original instruments from the Orchestral Cube still stand up.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 14, 2019)

EgM said:


> To be fair, I don't *hate* it. I just don't think it adds anything to all their libraries I already have using VI/P.



It's something to get started if you buy VE Pro. On the other hand, their old Special Edition - which may or may not still be available? - was a pretty serious orchestra. A lot of it (and other VSL) is in my big template.

EDIT: I just looked, and the Special Edition is still available, only it's been expanded into other volumes. $350 for an orchestra of that quality is a very good deal.

EDIT A 2nd TIME: I see you're talking about Synchron libraries in general. My comment is just about the Epic Orchestra that comes with VE Pro 7.


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## EgM (May 14, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It's something to get started if you buy VE Pro. On the other hand, their old Special Edition - which may or may not still be available? - was a pretty serious orchestra. A lot of it (and other VSL) is in my big template.



I've had VEP since 5 came out though. I don't use SE much, since I have most of the full and extended libraries except brass. 

What I meant in my previous comment: "_I just hope they're not planning on making Vienna Instruments/Pro obsolete_" was about making us buy the Synchronized versions and trying to shift us from using VI/P. I have no problems with VSL making new Synchron libraries, I just hope they keep VI/P up to date with OS updates, I have no plans to buy their Synchronized versions of VI since I already have them.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 14, 2019)

EgM said:


> I've had VEP since 5 came out though. I don't use SE much, since I have most of the full and extended libraries except brass.
> 
> What I meant in my previous comment: "_I just hope they're not planning on making Vienna Instruments/Pro obsolete_" was about making us buy the Synchronized versions and trying to shift us from using VI/P. I have no problems with VSL making new Synchron libraries, I just hope they keep VI/P up to date with OS updates.



You know, at this point I'm resigned to freezing my current machines where they are. If I need to run new stuff, I'll buy a new machine when I get to that bridge.

For me it's more that I want to run old stuff without updating everything!


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## EgM (May 14, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You know, at this point I'm resigned to freezing my current machines where they are. If I need to run new stuff, I'll buy a new machine when I get to that bridge.
> 
> For me it's more that I want to run old stuff without updating everything!



I'm already running/keeping 4 generations of frozen machines! Been doing this since 1993 lol. I honestly prefer keeping good products like VI libraries alive rather than paying for Synchronized versions of my stuff that uses the same samples just to keep them current on operating systems.

Edit: Also, Synchron player is nowhere near the capabilities that Vienna Instruments Pro is actually.


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## NYC Composer (May 14, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You know, at this point I'm resigned to freezing my current machines where they are. If I need to run new stuff, I'll buy a new machine when I get to that bridge.
> 
> For me it's more that I want to run old stuff without updating everything!


Ditto, ditto and ditto. My only beef with VEP (which I consider absolutely essential) is that VEP7 breaks 32 bit capability, and VEP 5 has been my kind host for old, hoary 32 bit instruments.


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## EgM (May 14, 2019)

I forgot to add that VSL still rocks!  And will most likely do for quite some time. Good record takes from humans playing real instruments in post 2000 audio resolutions are still current, VSL already had an edge into scripting before everyone else. I'm not worried about aging VSL samples at-all!


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 14, 2019)

NYC Composer said:


> Ditto, ditto and ditto. My only beef with VEP (which I consider absolutely essential) is that VEP7 breaks 32 bit capability, and VEP 5 has been my kind host for old, hoary 32 bit instruments.



Yeah, I know.

They removed the 32-bit server because it's already broken on Mojave. The plug-ins still run, but they all have weird graphic bugs. I suggested they add a warning screen, but they just removed it.

For me the answer has been to move as much of my old stuff as possible onto my Windows 7 machine. Addictive Drums, for example.


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## Eloy (May 14, 2019)

richhickey said:


> Very neat video of Rite of Spring intro mockup and look into the VSL techniques utilized:



This video is fantastic. It shows the depths that you may go with VSL samples. May many more of these videos come our way. Thank you


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 14, 2019)

EgM said:


> Edit: Also, Synchron player is nowhere near the capabilities that Vienna Instruments Pro is actually.



Yeah, simplicity and power are usually on opposite sides of a scale.

I admit to preferring the balance to tilt to the former, because in the heat of battle I just want to play and not look at instructions.

The best interface I can think of on a complicated instrument is Omnisphere's. It has a lot of parameters if you need to get at the details, but they're presented in a way that you don't have to re-learn the instrument every time you don't use it for a while.


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## robgb (May 14, 2019)

Lee Blaske said:


> Really makes you wonder why they're investing so much time switching things over to Synchron.


Because people are never happy with what they have and always need the next new thing. As for the video, it sounds lifeless to me. It takes an amazing piece and sucks all the emotion out of it.


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## BlackDorito (May 15, 2019)

I think the video itself is fascinating and reminds me how powerful VI-Pro is. It would be good to do a blind comparison with a live-orch version .. perhaps add a little chair squeak or music-rustling to the VI version as subtle cues.

I also wonder how far someone could go in this Rite exercise with the SE+ edition only. His bassoon has lots of artics:






My SE bassoon has only:






SE is missing certain things ... but how important are they.


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## Dewdman42 (May 15, 2019)

With SE, if you get ViPro, then some of the things he talks about in that video would be useful tricks for you to extend your smaller set of articulations into more variations and nuance.


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## bbunker (May 15, 2019)

BlackDorito said:


> I think the video itself is fascinating and reminds me how powerful VI-Pro is. It would be good to do a blind comparison with a live-orch version .. perhaps add a little chair squeak or music-rustling to the VI version as subtle cues.
> 
> I also wonder how far someone could go in this Rite exercise with the SE+ edition only. His bassoon has lots of artics:
> 
> ...


Just wanted to point out - that isn't all the articulations in SE+ by any means. It's just the shorts. And none of the repetition samples on those shorts, either, so - your SE bassoon definitely shouldn't only have those.


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## Ben (May 15, 2019)

The SE and SE+ packages are a great value and you can do a lot with them. But some articulations I will not miss after upgrading to the full instruments. For example the performance trills, different repertitions and the different dynamic articulations. Also the full libraries have more velocity layers and mostly sampled in half-tone steps.


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## dsblais (May 15, 2019)

Ben said:


> The SE and SE+ packages are a great value and you can do a lot with them. But some articulations I will not miss after upgrading to the full instruments. For example the performance trills, different repertitions and the different dynamic articulations. Also the full libraries have more velocity layers and mostly sampled in half-tone steps.



Do you feel like this improved granularity makes for a noticeable difference when composing, playing, and/or listening? Outside of a couple instruments, I only have SE and haven't been able to rationalize getting the full instruments yet.


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## Ben (May 15, 2019)

dsblais said:


> Do you feel like this improved granularity makes for a noticeable difference when composing, playing, and/or listening?


Yes, even the same articulations sound so much more vivid thanks to more samples and velocity layers.
If you using VSL just in a notation program, upgrading to the full instruments is imo waste of money. But if you take time and tweak the midi, you can get so much out of it. And the different additional articulations can inspire you during composition.
(Look out for sales; at the moment you get 30% on all upgrades)


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## dsblais (May 15, 2019)

Thank you, Ben. That sale has already struck me once; perhaps it will again.


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## BlackDorito (May 15, 2019)

Ben said:


> If you using VSL just in a notation program, upgrading to the full instruments is imo waste of money. But if you take time and tweak the midi, you can get so much out of it. And the different additional articulations can inspire you during composition.


I'm always using the SE within Sibelius and the bassoon preset that Sibelius drives is:




which contains most of the SE+ bassoon articulations but not all. [@bbunker is correct about the matrix I posted earlier.] Like @dsblais I haven't yet come across any evidence that upgrading will substantially change the game for me. The VSL soundset for Sibelius allows you to be productive quickly, but also perhaps discourages experimentation. Now that I am trying out Dorico, I am thinking its expression map feature will allow easier mixing and matching of VSL articulations (i.e. creating my own matrices) and tying them to score notations.


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## Ben (May 15, 2019)

If you are using the basson in a DAW you get so much more with the upgrade to the full instrument. Full articulation list:





Highlights not in SE+: different shorts with(out) vibrato, marcato legato, tons of dynamics, perf. trills


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## I like music (May 15, 2019)

Ben said:


> If you are using the basson in a DAW you get so much more with the upgrade to the full instrument. Full articulation list:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wait, wtf. Is that an articulation list? _That_ many articulations?


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## romantic (May 16, 2019)

Well that's VSL - Here the official List:
https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Woodwinds_I/Bassoon_1#!Sample_Content
And with VIro you can create additional variations of these articulations (longer, shorter, ...)


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## I like music (May 16, 2019)

romantic said:


> Well that's VSL - Here the official List:
> https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Woodwinds_I/Bassoon_1#!Sample_Content
> And with VIro you can create additional variations of these articulations (longer, shorter, ...)



Insane.


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## Ben (May 16, 2019)

romantic said:


> Well that's VSL - Here the official List:
> https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Woodwinds_I/Bassoon_1#!Sample_Content
> And with VIro you can create additional variations of these articulations (longer, shorter, ...)


There we go... the timestretching feature of VI Pro is cool, but also frightening (at least for me): you can do so much with it. You can finetune the sound of the articulation just by drawing a time-curve (for example you want the vibrato to be earlier but the transition should stay as it is; or you want faster transitions but the sustain should not be altered; make tremolos faster / slower). And you can define different curves, so you can use the unaltered with the modified/multiple modified articulations together. (now I feel the urge to experiment what a tremolo that starts slow and gets faster would sound like...)

The default vibrato is not what you want? Use the humanize function and draw your own vibrato in it (or use a preset).

And these are only two functionalities that allow you to tweak the sound. If you go full crazy you can combine these and also modify attack, release, transitions and more.


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## Tice (May 16, 2019)

Oh VSL, how I love you...
Still haven't found a library I get more flexibility out of with an easier to use interface than what VSL gives us.


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## I like music (May 16, 2019)

Surprised I don't hear that much about it. Is it the brand itself that isn't as sexy as others, or is it the price, or is there far too much control in the samples (e.g. not good 'out of the box')?

What Ben describes sounds like my ideal library. Going to look more into this.


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## Mark Schmieder (May 16, 2019)

To be frank, I think the majority bias against VSL is based on a combination of cost (more of an historical issue than current, due to all the sales and easy upgrade paths), and especially the dongle.


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## EgM (May 16, 2019)

Ben said:


> There we go... the timestretching feature of VI Pro is cool, but also frightening (at least for me): you can do so much with it. You can finetune the sound of the articulation just by drawing a time-curve (for example you want the vibrato to be earlier but the transition should stay as it is; or you want faster transitions but the sustain should not be altered; make tremolos faster / slower). And you can define different curves, so you can use the unaltered with the modified/multiple modified articulations together. (now I feel the urge to experiment what a tremolo that starts slow and gets faster would sound like...)
> 
> The default vibrato is not what you want? Use the humanize function and draw your own vibrato in it (or use a preset).
> 
> And these are only two functionalities that allow you to tweak the sound. If you go full crazy you can combine these and also modify attack, release, transitions and more.



Yeah, haha. I love that Vienna Instruments Pro feature so much! My stretch folder is set to 1Tb lol.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 16, 2019)

You know, I've been playing with the Epic Orchestra. Some of it is growing on me.

I agree with Michael Antrum that the oboe d'amore and the cornet are nice. Some of the brass sections are too.

It was the strings that didn't knock me out.

$150 or whatever it is for that and VE Pro is a good deal - especially since it includes those excellent plug-ins (you can route audio from a sequencer through them).


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## rrichard63 (May 16, 2019)

I like music said:


> Is it the brand itself that isn't as sexy as others, or is it the price, or is there far too much control in the samples (e.g. not good 'out of the box')?


I think the dongle is a major factor, especially when people compare it to iLok, which has better replacement policies in case of loss or damage. iLok also has a preferable (to me) user interface.

That said, some of VSL's competitors offer samples that are wetter out of the box when compared with the Vienna Instruments line (less so when compared to the new Synchron line). Some (not all) folks prefer that, especially when online demos sound so good that way. VSL's spatialization/reverb is very flexible and very good, but the added cost contributes to VSL's reputation for being expensive.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 16, 2019)

Mark Schmieder said:


> To be frank, I think the majority bias against VSL



Really?

I always thought of myself as part of the majority bias *for* VSL.

Everyone I've ever met from the company is extremely nice, and they're all very serious about what they do.

They also make a lot of fantastic products, such as VE Pro.


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## EgM (May 16, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It was the strings that didn't knock me out.



The (very) lite Appasionnata Strings from Epic Orchestra are terrible... As a owner of the full Appasionnata strings I can tell you that it sounds a thousand times better than epic


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## Tice (May 16, 2019)

EgM said:


> The (very) lite Appasionnata Strings from Epic Orchestra are terrible... As a owner of the full Appasionnata strings I can tell you that it sounds a thousand times better than epic


I recently bought the Appassionata Strings. I'm VERY happy with them!


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## EgM (May 16, 2019)

Tice said:


> I recently bought the Appassionata Strings. I'm VERY happy with them!



As am I. I don't use them as much as I could because they're huge, but I can't think of anything that replaces them when I reach for that particular sound.


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## Tice (May 16, 2019)

Yeah, they're the biggest string section I could find that has the full range of flexibility. Count me a big fan!


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## EgM (May 16, 2019)

The Appasionnata dynamic patches (dyMx and pfpx) are so fun and quite the time saver.


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## Ben (May 16, 2019)

I like music said:


> Surprised I don't hear that much about it. Is it the brand itself that isn't as sexy as others, or is it the price, or is there far too much control in the samples (e.g. not good 'out of the box')?
> What Ben describes sounds like my ideal library. Going to look more into this.


The Vienna Instruments don't have an out-of-box experience like the thousends of epic soundtrack libraries out there. The samples are recorded very dry, so you need a good reverb and some mixing skills (or you get MIRx or even MIR Pro, that will assist you with panning and reverb).
The libraries are pricy, but if you buy on sale they are not more expensive then other libraries. And the samples are consistent, even when changing articulations. You get imo a far better value for the same price.
If you check them out, don't forget the VI Pro player. It's a must have.


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## EgM (May 16, 2019)

Ben said:


> The Vienna Instruments don't have an out-of-box experience like the thousends of epic soundtrack libraries out there. The samples are recorded very dry, so you need a good reverb and some mixing skills (or you get MIRx or even MIR Pro, that will assist you with panning and reverb).
> The libraries are pricy, but if you buy on sale they are not more expensive then other libraries. And the samples are consistent, even when changing articulations. You get imo a far better value for the same price.
> If you check them out, don't forget the VI Pro player. It's a must have.



Like @Ben said, it's definitely not out of the box CSS kind of sound. I personally use mirX Teldex for everything (I just set the dry/wet to around 15-20% just for placement and use Valhalla Room/Vintage). It can be costly, but there are SO many articulations that you can do anything you want with them if you're into details. Still cheaper than Spitfire or Orchestra Tools though.

Many people say some VSL instruments sound _synthy_ but that just because they don't want to put the work into it.

Also, some people think that some of the instruments are old (Appasionnata Strings were recorded in 2007 I believe), but good recordings don't age! I've been saying this so often... The programming / tweaking is yours to do in Vienna Instruments Pro just like you would do in Kontakt!


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## I like music (May 16, 2019)

Very very interesting. My main priority is to be able to shape the note so that the musical intent isn't lost, and samples are generally rubbish at that. I'm going to look into VSL a bit more, but for now all I can say is that they seem to have so much stuff recorded, I don't know where to begin ...


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 16, 2019)

EgM said:


> The Appasionnata dynamic patches (dyMx and pfpx) are so fun and quite the time saver.



Man, I love the dynamic patches in all the VSL libraries. Using them all the time. They're such a valuable time saver and are also great for adding more variety to notes in a phrase.


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## Ben (May 16, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Man, I love the dynamic patches in all the VSL libraries. Using them all the time. They're such a valuable time saver and are also great for adding more variety to notes in a phrase.


I like using them particularly with Dimension Strings for long notes: some player play the sustain, some the pf dynamic, some the pfp dynamic.


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## EgM (May 16, 2019)

About VSL atriculations across instruments:

I've made my matrices _somewhat_ constant across the whole orchestra so you can see that they share the same patch names for most instruments. Switching between woodwinds for instance is easy.

Oboe French (Extended, I use another matrix for Legato speed trigger):






Oboe Viennese (Extended, also additional matrix for Legato speed):






P.S. @richhickey you should change the title to "VSL Appreciation thread", haha 

P.P.S If anyone needs help with VSL instruments or Vienna Instruments just reach out to me, I'm more than happy to help.


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## Ben (May 16, 2019)

The beauty of the VSL players is their flexibility (the matix based VI and the tree based Synchron). You can configure them as you like.
My matrices look different from EgM's: (Dim String1 in the screenshot, but all the other instruments have the same layout, so I can quickly remember the keyswitches)





I group the articulations by type in the matrix list (first octave), the second octave selects the specific articulations, and the third keyswitch has always only 3 values, mostly for vibrato, non-vibrato and crossfade between these two.


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## EgM (May 16, 2019)

Ben said:


> The beauty of the VSL players is their flexibility (the matix based VI and the tree based Synchron). You can configure them as you like.
> My matrices look different from EgM's: (Dim String1 in the screenshot, but all the other instruments have the same layout, so I can quickly remember the keyswitches)
> 
> 
> ...



I wanted to make a better matrix grouping but I've made them a while ago and got used to it... Yours is clearly better than mine though


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## Mark Schmieder (May 16, 2019)

Nick, I think you misunderstood me. I am VERY pro-VSL, but hold back on that a bit so as to not offend a lot of forum members. Only recently have I started to notice a bit more positive love being thrown their way. I was simply stating my observation that there seems to be an historical bias by the majority, against VSL, and my speculation on what might be contributing factors (other than some people simply not liking dry libraries).


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## Mark Schmieder (May 16, 2019)

Sometimes I think the reason I still find the Konzerthaus Organ my most useful pipe organ, is the Vienna Instruments Pro player. It is probably just inexperience on my part, but I have been unable to bring forward such ultimate flexibility in register-switching and the like, with my other organ libraries. Of course, most of them don't have as many stops and combinations to begin with.

I have been moving more towards Presets recently and away from single Matrix sets, and this is starting to get me to appreciate the new Synchron Player even more, as it's a bit easier and quicker to see the overview or quickly dive in for details. I'm wondering if Vienna Instruments player will be refactored soon to follow a bit of what has been done with the Synchron Player. Although with the latter, one has to remember to pre-load samples one will need during real-time tracking.


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## ptram (May 17, 2019)

VLS full instruments require a huge investment in setting things up, before becoming the incredibly useful tool they are. However, their player (Vienna Instruments Pro) is so flexible that you can start the easy way, and go on making things more intricate later, as you learn how to use the library.

When you receive the instruments, you have a series of presets containing some sets of articulations. You also get Cubase Expression Maps for most instruments. Nothing is supplied for Logic’s Articulation Sets, and if I’m not wrong Sibelius Sound Sets are only available for the SE version.

You have to find your own way to use the patches/articulations, and organize them in your own presets, and then let the sequencing/notation software drive them. I’ve discovered that trying to use someone’s else presets doesn’t always work for one’s personal workflow. So, the first thing to do is to elaborate a strategy.

The first question you have to ask yourself is how complex your instruments will have to be. You can be happy with light presets, using just a few articulations. This is why the SE edition is so generally useful. You will give up with all the nuances, but you will be able to start immediately with a minimum of controls needed to use the instruments.

If you want things to go more complex, you have first to decide how to organize the huge mess of articulations. Someone likes to use a single matrix with several rows of patches, someone else a couple matrices, and someone else (like me) huge presets in which categories of articulations are organized in separate matrices, each one containing various degrees of complexity.

In my case: I have presets with matrices containing types of attack (sustain, legato, détaché/portato, staccato, marcato, fp/sfz/sffz…). Most matrices use playing speed to select various nuances of articulations (staccato/spiccato, sustain with slow/fast attack…). Others use keyswitches (maybe to select different trill intervals or prerecorded repetition speeds). The horizontal organization of the matrices is reserved to the type of timbre (vib., n.v., pont., sul tasto, harmonics…).

After you have a master preset (for a solo violin or solo flute, for example), you have to replicate it to all the other instruments. There is a trick to quickly propagate a preset programming to other presets, so this can be done with reasonable speed.

And after this, you have to create Expression Maps, Articulation Sets, Sound Setups, or whatever they are called in the various DAWs and notation programs the interface between your playing notes and the library.

To make things more complicate, I have decided to make my own map universal for all the libraries I own, therefore forcing my own VSL presets into a map compatible with Spitfire’s UACC, the only semi-standard currently codified. The good aspect of this is that I have a single reference, letting me quickly find the needed articulations in the various libraries, once mapped.

It’s an incredibly long work, but once done, it is done forever. And you can do a few instruments at a time (contrabass tuba and serpent can wait a little more than the violoncello…).

Paolo


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## Mark Schmieder (May 17, 2019)

Also, I find that for instruments in the same family, I can use the first one as a template for the others, and just swap out the equivalent patches one by one (though sometimes there isn't a 1:1 match).

So far, I have only built custom matrices, and am only using stock presets from VSL. The thing I need to look into next, is whether I can create a preset that pulls from multiple paths. For instance, I would rather not have my "aa" and "uu" on separate choir tracks, and to just use keu switching, but the stock presets are all "aa" or all "uu". I simply haven't gotten far enough yet in customization, to learn whether I can do my own combined preset that includes both "aa" and "uu".

That's just one example, and probably the organ presets show me how it's done, if I analyze them.


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## ptram (May 17, 2019)

@Mark, another map I'm building is one for voices. I'm trying to include all the phonems (excluding, if space is not enough, the very similar ones – like 'f' and 'v' or 'p' and 'b') and syllables.

The map would look something like the attached picture. In my VSL's voices, I guess there would be a first matrix will all the vowels in a row. Each row of the matrix would be a different type of sound production (sustain, staccato…).

A second matrix would contain the consonants/syllables, with a schema similar to the one of the vowels.

But I've not thought enough to this matter. 

Paolo


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## Mark Schmieder (May 17, 2019)

That's an ambitious project! I was skeptical when this library came out, as it doesn't have a word builder, and is relatively light on articulations compared to other libraries, but the recording quality and the timbre as well as dynamics are just so magnificent that it is often my first choice, even though I also make great use of Bela D's vocal libraries (and occasionally one or two others).


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## Ben (May 18, 2019)

If you want to re-build your template or just starting, here is an undocumented feature you will love:

- Open the standalone Vienna Instruments Pro Player
- Load a preset / or set up your matrices
- Press Ctr-Alt-W (Mac: Alt-Cmd-W), a popup will appear:




- Enter the new prefix in the replace box (in my example I loaded a matrix for Violin 1 Solo, and set up to replace VI with VA):




- A confirmation window will appear and show how many cells would be transformed correctly and how many will fail. Confirm with "Yes".
- Clean up the matrices from all cells that failed to transform (mostly articulations that are not available in other instrument).

Hints:
- Start with the instrument that has the most articulations (for strings it is always the violins). This will help you setting up the more complex instrument first.
- Don't know which instrument has which prefix? Open the patch list on the right and navigate to the instrument.
- I had issues with the key-command not working, because I'm using an international english keyboard layout. If the command is not working for you, try switching your keyboard-layout to a default english or german layout.

As said this feature is undocumented, but Herb wrote about it here: https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t30313-Speedy-template-tips#post194196 
There are also some other tips how to speed up template building in VI Pro.


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## Michael Antrum (May 19, 2019)

Well, I always had a problem with the VSL dongle policy, as I travel a lot and would be petrified of losing or breaking it. However, with their new insurance policy for dongles, this is mitigated to some extent.

So I'm sitting here seriously thinking about picking up Appassionata Strings (I am going through a bit if a John Barry phase at the moment) but of course, now the question is whether to go for the original or the synchronised version ? Would value some advice from some who has both.

Does the Synchron player play the older library samples (I'm guessing not) and so therefore I would need to purchase the VIPro player on top of the library to get the best flexibility. 

I'm not in a rush, so I will keep and eye out for sales and second user versions in the classifieds.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 19, 2019)

The VI version of Appassionata Strings can be run in the free, non-pro Vienna Instruments. You could always start with the standard version, get familiar with the player and the library and later decide if you need the additional functionality of the pro version.

The original library has a number of patches that aren't present in the more streamlined synchron-ized version: legato slur (which is different from the portamento that is in both libraries), portato (longer than staccato, but shorter than detache), progressive vibrato for both longs and legato (nonvib gradually to expressive vib), detuned attack for longs and legato, longs and legato sul G for violins, pre-recorded dynamics (cresc and dim) in three lenghts and pre-recorded measured tremolo at different tempi. The detache in Synchron Appassionata is different - shorter, while the VI patch is longer and has even a bit of vibrato on top. Actually it kinda seems as if the portato patch from the VI library was renamed to detache in the Synchron library.

On the flipside, the Synchron version comes with Synchron Stage IRs for all sections, which makes the library correctly seated and properly spatialized out-of-the box (can be turned off). The VI Appassionata needs to be either spatialized on your own, or you can get a MIRx venue (for example the Teldex one) which does the same thing, but at an additional cost.

The Synchron Stage IRs have a brighter, clearer, more focused sound. To my ears, the Teldex makes the library sound darker, smoother and more "vanilla".

All in all, the synchronized version is kind of the somewhat more affordable, more streamlined version, while the original one comes with more options and content, but also at a steeper price.


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## Michael Antrum (May 19, 2019)

Thanks Jimmy, that's really helpful. I do like the idea of the non-vib to to expressive vib in particular. But then the spacialisation ....

I know you can cross-grade from the original to the synchronised version - I wonder if that goes the other way too. Food for thought.


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## ptram (May 19, 2019)

Ben said:


> If you want to re-build your template or just starting, here is an undocumented feature you will love:


Anorher hint, at least on the Mac: if you can't see the confirmation button in the editing window, first press the Right Arrow to select it, and press Enter. I hope, however, this problem will be fixed sooner or later.

Paolo


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## richhickey (May 19, 2019)

Michael Antrum said:


> Thanks Jimmy, that's really helpful. I do like the idea of the non-vib to to expressive vib in particular. But then the spacialisation ....
> 
> I know you can cross-grade from the original to the synchronised version - I wonder if that goes the other way too. Food for thought.



I do not think you can crosssgrade from synchronized to VI series. Thus my recommendation for all synchronized libs is, if you can afford it, _buy the VI series version_ (esp. on a sale) and crossgrade to synchronized. That way you will always have maximum flexibility.

As far as VI Pro and MIR, people often balk at the added cost of these, esp when considering their first VSL lib, but remember VI Pro/MIRx can be used with all VI series libs, and MIR Pro with _any_ dry libs, from any vendor (e.g. wonderful with Chris Heins libs). So the cost gets amortized over all of these purchases.


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## Dewdman42 (May 19, 2019)

I bought VI stuff and then quickly determined I need MirPro. I tried to wade into the MirPro pond slowly but it didn't take long for me to end up with MirPro and all MirPro room packs, all of which I actually love. MirPro is an incredible piece of software there is nothing else like it out there! I feel that MirPro combined with VI libs is the power user package while Syncron is the the easier to use solution for those less inclined to get into the intricacies of ViPro and MirPro, both of which are killer pieces of software, but they do have a learning curve. MirPro is capable of some amazing things and can be used with other dry instruments you might have besides VSL instruments.


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## Mark Schmieder (May 19, 2019)

I bought MirPro (and the add-on packs) a couple of years ago, but still haven't wrapped my head around it so have been using VSL's other reverb tools for now, with the same convolution spaces as the ones I prefer in MirPro.

As I am wrapping up an album that combines VSL, Chris Hein, and Spitfire libraries (for the orchestral side of things), I am probably going to have to finally force myself to come to grips with MirPro, and see if it is the ideal tool for putting different semi-dry libraries in the same acoustical space.

Rich is correct that one should buy the VI lib to cross-grade to Synchron, and that the reverse is probably not supported (though perhaps is allowed via a private email, on a case by case basis).

I may finally get around to comparing some of the Synchron-ized stuff that is in Epic Orchestra 2.0, during some final tracking decisions today on ensemble stuff. I had put off finalization of my ensemble tracks until this week, as I'm more into intimate small-scale instrumentation (not necessarily a small number of instruments, but mostly just one player per part, which also includes up to four separate F Horn players each playing different stuff), and have been focusing on finalizing solo parts for most of the past year and a half (eight active albums in total, and eight more semi-active projects).


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## Dewdman42 (May 19, 2019)

I would not use mirpro with any sample library that has early reflections baked into the samples. It is designed to add ER’s so basically it’s not the right tool for any library that was specifically sampled in a space with the ER’s baked into it. I don’t own spitfire but aren’t they pretty much all wet with ER’s?


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## Mark Schmieder (May 19, 2019)

I am referring to their new Studio Series, but you could be right that it's across-the-board. I'll see if there's documentation on that.


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## Dewdman42 (May 19, 2019)

Looks like Studio series is a smaller room, but still a room. I doubt it will be well suited for MirPro. The Studio Series is drier in the sense that it doesn't have a big hall wet sound, but the ER's of the small room are still there and inherent in the sound. You can always try with MirPro since you already have it, but I would expect it to be problematic in the ER area. Unless they provide you a close mic option in Spitfire?

Same goes for Chris Hein, it depends on whether close mic samples are included, I'm not familiar with his stuff to know.

I use MirPro mainly with VSL instruments, but also it can be used with EWHO Diamond close mics when I want to combine the two libraries. My Kirk Hunter stuff works pretty well if I disable the ER's he included as separate IR's. 

If your library, such as Spitfire, has ER's baked in, then the next best thing to do is to run Spitfire without MirPro and run your VSL instruments through MirPro, then you would need to go through the various room packs and try to find a room that has a similar room sound as your Spitfire Studio Series. Turn off all the long reverb tails everywhere while comparing this. You're mainly trying to match the small room acoustics of Studio Series. Then you can always monkey with an extra long tail reverb on top of that to make a hybrid sound of the small room with some extra tail to make it sound bigger in a way.

Anyway back to topic, one of the advantages of VI over SYncron for you would be that you can play around with MirPro to get a room that matches that of your Studio Series Spitfire stuff. The Syncron series will sound like the Syncron hall and that's it, though it supposedly has some different mic options also which might give you a little bit of flexibility, but still its more limiting then what you can do with MirPro to make your VSL instruments sound like they are in the room of your choice.


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## Mark Schmieder (May 19, 2019)

Ah yes, that sounds about right. And I keep forgetting to experiment with the MIRx that is now built into VI Pro. I have meant to add that to my workflow, to sort of pre-audition what I'm likely to do downstream at mix time. I definitely decided that I don't want to bake MIRx into my initial tracking.


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## Ben (May 19, 2019)

I use MIR with the VSL libraries, but also used it with my own recordings. 
In my current project I had no access to a good sounding room and therefore I recorded the choir and some instruments as dry as possible + a main mic (ORTF). I added just a little algorithmic reverb to the main mic and MIR for the close/dry mics. Mixed together MIR provided a good sounding room and the main mic added glue to the stereo impression for the choir.


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## Mark Schmieder (May 19, 2019)

I started a new topic about the Chris Hein libraries and seeing if more is known about the nature of the convolutions on offer; especially for Body vs. Room. It isn't detailed in the user manuals, but might have been talked about on this or other forums at some point.


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## Hanu_H (May 19, 2019)

I don't have Mir but I've used VSS many times with VSL instruments and it sounds good as well. I use it for panning and ER and Spaces for the hall.

https://www.parallax-audio.com/index.php


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## BlackDorito (May 20, 2019)

Ben said:


> I use MIR with the VSL libraries, but also used it with my own recordings.


Agreed. I have found that you can get a very convincing room sound with a real piano, virtually independent of the actual room it is in, by using a close-mic ORTF config right at the lid, then put it into MIR with e.g. any of the room pack I stages.


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## Mark Schmieder (May 20, 2019)

Good point, as ORTF is very friendly to downstream spatial processing.

I would think that Mid/Side would work well also, in this context, and mixed between live stuff and library material.


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## BlackDorito (May 20, 2019)

Mark Schmieder said:


> I would think that Mid/Side would work well also


You would want to dial in the Side. I've used ORTF and spaced cardioid (mid-treble and bass strings) to good effect. Any stereo close-mic technique should work. What I loved is that I could dial in a very convincing jazz trio setup with real piano, EZ Drummer, and Fluffy Audio bass, all on the MIR Mozartsaal stage with little effort. For me, that alone is worth the $$$ for MIR Pro. Similarly, it has been useful for situating a string quartet using the VSL solo strings.


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## ptram (May 22, 2019)

VSL libraries are so kaleidoscopic, that someone should find a way to interface them with a light projector.

VSL Small Blocks Show

Paolo


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