# Jack Smalley or Vincent Persichetti?



## Hanu_H (Jan 4, 2013)

I've been composing for a while and now I want to learn more about it. I've taken the basic theory and harmony lessons, but now I want to get deeper into composing. My main concern is that I don't want to get stuck doing the same things over and over again, I want to be able to compose all kind of music and I want to be fast in it. I've played in bands for my whole life, so pop and rock elements are easy to me. I am not a classically trained musician but I can read notes. I have The Guide to Midi Orchestration by Paul Gilreath and I think I have a ear for orchestration.

I found these two books, Jack Smalleys Composing Music for Film and Twentieth-Century Harmony by Vincent Persichetti. Which one is better? Or is there a better book for me?


Cheers,

-Hannes


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## gsilbers (Jan 4, 2013)

very different books. 

jack smalley's focus is on film. so no deep 20th century composition but really good info about music for picture. 

the vincent book is a trip. really deep into 20th century theory. 


i like the jack smalley book better. but id get both since both are very very good.


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## David Story (Jan 4, 2013)

Persichetti taught at Juilliard. Smalley at USC.

That says it all. Do you want concert skills, or movie skills? Both are useful, but the approach is different.

Do you live near a university? Go to the music library and look at these books and others:

Study of Orchestration by Samuel Adler
The Norton Scores. An anthology for listening
The Complete Musician by Steven Laitz
On The Track by Fred Karlin

There are so many different kinds of music and techniques for writing. The more you love, the more you'll learn.


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## Brian Ralston (Jan 4, 2013)

I studied with Jack at USC. Let me sum up his basic film scoring belief in one short phrase. 

"There are no rules." 

There you go...that is Jack. He use to do this thing where in class we would shout out random chords and rhythms...and he would write them down and create a cue on the spot. Kind of like "Whose line is in anyway" for film scoring. And he could make them all work to the scene. He then would play it on the piano in class and say, "Isn't that wonderful." And usually...it was.


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## david robinson (Jan 5, 2013)

persichetti is a great starting point. j.


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## José Herring (Jan 5, 2013)

david robinson @ Sat Jan 05 said:


> persichetti is a great starting point. j.



+1

Then moving on to Hindemith. 

I'm sorry, but as talented and skilled as Jack Smalley was/is ( no idea if he's still alive) he's not in the same league as Persichetti. Persichetti's book is a real eye opener.

Free your mind.


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## Hanu_H (Jan 5, 2013)

Thanks for the replies guys. I am feeling that the Smalleys book might be the one to start with and later when I want to go deeper, I will check the Persichetti. About orchestration books...Is the Samuel Adlers book still the best one around?


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## José Herring (Jan 5, 2013)

Hanu_H @ Sat Jan 05 said:


> Thanks for the replies guys. I am feeling that the Smalleys book might be the one to start with and later when I want to go deeper, I will check the Persichetti. About orchestration books...Is the Samuel Adlers book still the best one around?



Sam adler's book. No. Imo probably one of the worst. Though wildly used. I can't think of why. Maybe because it's a bit easier to understand than the rest.

Rimsky-Korsakov for advanced stuff and Forsyth for basics, though his language is impossible to understand and he delves too much into the history of instrumentation. And then when you really know what you're doing, Berlioz Strauss.


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## JohannesR (Jan 5, 2013)

josejherring @ Sat Jan 05 said:


> Sam adler's book. No. Imo probably one of the worst.



I´d love to hear you elaborate on that.


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## ed buller (Jan 5, 2013)

Rimsky Korsakov is very good

it's here if you want a peek

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration-On-line (http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/for ... on-On-line)

Adler, Blatter and Piston are all good. But orchestrion books tend to talk a lot about individual instruments. The actual putting it all together phase is a bit thin on the ground for me. That's why rimsky is so good because he does give lot's of examples ( albeit his on music ).....but he was a jedi of orchestration so........

e


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## José Herring (Jan 5, 2013)

JohannesR @ Sat Jan 05 said:


> josejherring @ Sat Jan 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Sam adler's book. No. Imo probably one of the worst.
> ...



I read it. Gives a very academic account of orchestration without really getting much into the aesthetic principles of orchestration like many others do. Which would be OK. But, it's utterly apparent that he had no real knowledge of wind instruments other than perhaps what he had read in some other books.


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## Synesthesia (Jan 5, 2013)

josejherring @ Sat Jan 05 said:


> JohannesR @ Sat Jan 05 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Sat Jan 05 said:
> ...



Theres a great quote (I'm paraphrasing from memory)

"The Contrabass Trombone is far too taxing for the player so do not write for it."

I use CBBone in almost everything I do.. :D


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## kclements (Jan 5, 2013)

I have been working through the Visual Orchestration course by Peter Alexander - while maybe not exactly what we are talking about here - it is very good. A _lot_ of info presented in a very easy to understand way. It's not necessarily theory - more about orchestration and instrumentation, but it is worth the price I think. I am working (and re-working) my way through the first course - going on to the second in a bit. 

I also wonder if anyone has any experience with the Scott Smalley seminar - especially the on-line version? I have a couple friends who took his class in LA and really speak highly of it. I have been thinking about do that class next.

Cheers
kc


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## ed buller (Jan 5, 2013)

I can highly recommend the online course.....worth every penny

e


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## Blakus (Jan 5, 2013)

I really recommend the Smalley online course too. Worth the money! And my Jack Smalley book just arrived in the mail too! Looking forward to digging into that more!


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## windshore (Jan 5, 2013)

I studied privately with Jack for a couple of years. His approach is actually VERY deep, original and inspiring. His personal approach to orchestration and theory are very wide-ranging. He certainly loves tone rows and can use them in the most beautiful and harmonic way. (Breaking rules a lot of times.) 

Since you don't have the option to study with him privately, the book is certainly worthwhile. It is of course limited by being a single book so he can't cover everything thoroughly in his arsenal. The great thing though, is that he gives you a bunch of tools which can give you a handle on composing more consciously whether it's a single line for a melody, or a complete orchestral work.

Of course no one book or method does it all, so pick one up, spend time with it, move on when you need more.


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## David Story (Jan 5, 2013)

Scott and Jack Smalley are incredibly entertaining lecturers in person. The books/audio miss the interactive element and charm. And those make all the difference in practice.

Ron Jones' Ravel group is another resource and they've gone international.

Berlioz, Rimsky and Forsyth are in PD and available online. All have good stuff and not so good. Compare and contrast.

The second best orchestration study is to take a score of The Rite of Spring to live concerts and try and keep up. When you can, you'll know a lot.

The best is to play and write for a live orchestra of moderate skill. There is nothing like it, and it's how every successful composer learns. It will change your life.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 5, 2013)

Private study with a great orchestrator, as I had with the late Albert Harris, is also great if you have access to a guy like that and can afford it.


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## José Herring (Jan 5, 2013)

Synesthesia @ Sat Jan 05 said:


> josejherring @ Sat Jan 05 said:
> 
> 
> > JohannesR @ Sat Jan 05 said:
> ...



Many gems like that in this book. :lol:


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 5, 2013)

Hanu_H @ Fri Jan 04 said:


> I've been composing for a while and now I want to learn more about it. I've taken the basic theory and harmony lessons, but now I want to get deeper into composing. My main concern is that I don't want to get stuck doing the same things over and over again, I want to be able to compose all kind of music and I want to be fast in it. I've played in bands for my whole life, so pop and rock elements are easy to me. I am not a classically trained musician but I can read notes. I have The Guide to Midi Orchestration by Paul Gilreath and I think I have a ear for orchestration.
> 
> I found these two books, Jack Smalleys Composing Music for Film and Twentieth-Century Harmony by Vincent Persichetti. Which one is better? Or is there a better book for me?
> 
> ...



From how you described yourself, honestly, neither.

To do as you described you need more harmony than you said you've taken. That's the only way to avoid getting stuck. To do that, the book to go through and FINISH, Schoenberg's Theory of Harmony 100th Anniversary Edition from Amazon. About $25.

Next, at books.google.com, for free, download Percy Goetschius' The Material Used in Musical Composition. Go to the back of the book and go through the material on harmonic figuration.

Now you have some tools to work with, and now you're ready to consider learning composition techniques.

Where I would then go next, pardon the plug, is our revision of Percy Goetschius' Elementary 18th Counterpoint and then his Homophonic Forms. 

Once done, you're at the base point for taking Persichetti and running with it. I studied with Jack, too, and I think the same for his book since the more you bring to the table, the more you'll get out it.


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## Hanu_H (Jan 6, 2013)

Thanks everyone for your advices!



EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jan 05 said:


> Private study with a great orchestrator, as I had with the late Albert Harris, is also great if you have access to a guy like that and can afford it.


Would love to do that, but living in a Finland it's harder than you think. There's really not a lot of options available and all them seem to live in Helsinki, about 100 km away where I live. I took some lessons with a one composer there but it just takes too much time and money to drive there with the traffic and everything. I am gonna contact one composer in my home town, if I can get some lessons from him.



Peter Alexander @ Sun Jan 06 said:


> From how you described yourself, honestly, neither.
> 
> To do as you described you need more harmony than you said you've taken. That's the only way to avoid getting stuck. To do that, the book to go through and FINISH, Schoenberg's Theory of Harmony 100th Anniversary Edition from Amazon. About $25.
> 
> ...


Thanks Peter, I will check Schoenberg's Theory of Harmony out. I think I am in a good place. Whatever I buy, I will learn a lot of new tricks. Suggesting to learn more harmony first sounds good, because I really want to understand the art of composing better.


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 6, 2013)

Hanu - don't think of this as learning "new tricks" because that's for amateurs.

If you approach this as learning a language, you'll go further faster.

Been there. Know that.


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## sstern (Jan 6, 2013)

When I have a choice between 2 books I buy and read both  And I love both books - by Persichetti and Jack Smalley. 

In my opinion, Adler's book is overestimated.


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## Hanu_H (Jan 7, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Mon Jan 07 said:


> Hanu - don't think of this as learning "new tricks" because that's for amateurs.
> 
> If you approach this as learning a language, you'll go further faster.
> 
> Been there. Know that.


Thanks mate. Definitely interested in this language and will do my best to learn it.


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## bdr (Jan 7, 2013)

David Story @ Sun Jan 06 said:


> Ron Jones' Ravel group is another resource and they've gone international




Hi David..any idea on how to find out about this?


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