# Open question to Rctec



## Christof

After some reflections about the profession as a composer for visual media in general I have some questions to Rctec, I am sure it could be very interesting and helpful for us to know:

_How do you deal with the enormous pressure on working on a over 200 Million budget movie like MOS, and working almost simultaneously on other potential blockbusters?

How do you stand critical situations such as lack of inspiration, weariness or exhaustion, even with the experience of a career for over 30 years?

How do you deal with the fact that the your name is almost symbolic for the fact that your (different) styles of music are currently the standard for a successful film score, at least for the thousands of composers who try to jump on the track by copying your styles?

What would be your (best) advice to somebody who wants to be a 'successful' film composer (not in terms of income and glory, 
more in terms of artistic satisfaction)?
_
Hope I didn't ask too much!

Christof


----------



## Greg

Check out interviews with Hans on youtube, I've watched a few of them and he addresses a lot of these questions.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1 ... _anything/

Also his Reddit AMA above.


----------



## Christof

well yes, but why shouldn't I address some questions to a forum member here?


----------



## Ciaran Birch

I don't think Greg was saying you 'shouldn't' address the questions in the forum. I think he was just giving you info on the questions you asked that are available elsewhere as well. o-[][]-o


----------



## Christof

I know, sorry, had a long and bad day


----------



## Ciaran Birch

Well I hope tomorrow is shorter and happier for you! It is Sunday after all, the day of relaxation!  (Not for most composers however!  )


----------



## Rctec

not as long and bad as mine...


----------



## Studio E

Think health, family, shelter, food, etc. now is it really a bad day? . Or is it a day with "first world" problems?


----------



## MarkS_Comp

Rctec @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> not as long and bad as mine...



What happened? The director give you some change notes you disagree with? :lol:


----------



## Christof

When somebody quite close passes away I call it a bad(sad) day.Not in the family but anyway very sad.


----------



## rpaillot

Let's send a little bit of virtual courage to our dear Rctec who seems to undergo a very bad day .

Soon some well deserved holidays for you I hope 

@ dear christof , my condolences , keep doing the great music


----------



## Lex

Christof @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> When somebody quite close passes away I call it a bad(sad) day.Not in the family but anyway very sad.



I'm sorry for your loss.

alex


----------



## Rctec

I'm sorry to hear that, Christof. My condolemces...


----------



## Chriss Ons

My sincere condolences, Christof.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Condolences, Christof. I have lost about dear friends in the last 5 years. It is very painful.

And Hans, sorry for your long ,bad day, and I hope it was not something similar.


----------



## Rctec

Dear Christof, 

I'll answer in spurts and splutters, since i have the movie from hell to finish by Wednesday...

As movie budgets have gotten more obscene, I started to ignore them more.
Plus, the teams on big movies are usually more seasoned, calm and professional. Better infrastructure in place to protect the talent, especially since they know that to really come up with something commercially viable, you have to invite the possibility of failure into the experiment. And there is money to experiment. So, on the whole, it's actually more peaceful then the indie scene with the director who still has to learn how to curb his ego and work collaboratively in a team... seasoned directors don't want to control you, they want to have you contribute a whole parallel story to what they have on the screen already. They want you to help them discover something new about their film. (Side note: Jay Asher got confused by my use of the word "we", when talking about the making of TDKR, since he couldn't find a screenwriting credit for me on imdb. Well, of course not. But all those movies with Chris or Ron start by us spending many month just taking about story, structure, subtext and ideas ahead of the shoot. It's fun when the dailies start coming in and you see shots that where designed from a musical point of view...I just got hired onto a movie for my story sense by a studio...)
The other advantage I have is to surround myself with other talented musicians and programmers. This has created all sort of rumors about what I do and don't, but at the end of the day, the conversation is between myself and the filmmaker, it starts and ends with me, and I better come up with the style, tune, arrangement and production idea. But that's a subject for another day...

The problem is... The Whole World is watching (see MOS thread...). The word Schadenfreude is definitely not just a German concept alone anymore. But ultimately, the truth is that I write for my own enjoyment. I love the process, and am rather at loose ends once the damn thing is finished. Premieres are wakes. Very depressing. I'm my own harshest critic and, luckily, I like writing music that at the moment seems to be quite popular. I will suffer the inevitable fall from grace, become yesterday's irrelevant composer, which is something I'm not looking forward to. But that's life, isn't it? I'll just carry on writing away.

I've given up taking the executives seriously when they speak to me about how expensive something is, how their jobs are on the line and how we have to work extra hard because they need a hit. I have given up, because the following week they will release some total piece of shit that bombs at the box-office, and all you want to say is "why didn't you let me read that script before you decided to pour the profits from our hit into it? I could have told you from the page - after all, I've worked on more movies by now then most studio executives - that it wasn't going to work"...

How do I juggle multiple projects? I had an agreement with the studio that they couldn't even mention MOS while I was on Dark Knight, and Gore V. knew that I wasn't going to pay any attention to the Lone Ranger until I finished MOS. Which was a mistake, because we didn't have those month of just free creative chat before he went to shoot it. Made it much harder on all of us. But he sent me a slide-show of stills (600!) that I had running in the background as my screensaver...so, in the back of my mind I at least had an idea what the look of the thing was.

In other words, I can only think of one thing at a time. I am serially monogamous. I write for myself, and try to keep it interesting for myself - which, in my case means getting rid off as many notes as I can, get rid of anything 'clever' and academic until it's reduced to the most simple, concise and unsentimental thing...And I don't touch the keyboard until I have a concept of what I want to write about.

Now, back to work


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Rctec @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> Dear Christof,
> 
> (Side note: Jay Asher got confused by my use of the word "we", when talking about the making of TDKR, since he couldn't find a screenwriting credit for me on imdb. Well, of course not. But all those movies with Chris or Ron start by us spending many month just taking about story, structure, subtext and ideas ahead of the shoot. It's fun when the dailies start coming in and you see shots that where designed from a musical point of view...I just got hired onto a movie for my story sense by a studio...)



Thanks you for your very thoughtful and informative post.

Hans if I had know this, I would not have started that thread, out of respect for you. I have never done a score where I wasn't strictly "post production" so it never occurred to me that you were involved from the git-go.


----------



## valexnerfarious

Jay i hate it to when i insert foot in mouth lol


----------



## Rctec

Dear Jay,
I'm working on a film currently where I wasn't involved from the beginning (it's a loooong story. Just helping out...) and I realize that - since none of it was cut with my music in mind, I just become a mechanic, serving a locked picture. No wonder everyone just copies temps, since the technology has changed so much with the advent of the Avid, that you can cut much easier to music than ever before... And it becomes quite difficult to change the tone and be creative after the event. The devil's candy.
Conversely, the Avid and our DAWs have made for a very simple analogy in work styles for picture editors and composers. The Avid is just a picture sequencer...But neither party seems to have quite figured the conversation out yet. Other then in animation, which has done this forever, I believe. 
TDK was shot with tempos we decided at the outset. No, not to a click track, but there was an awareness on the set what tempos I wanted to write in, even though the music didn't yet exist. I think it made for a subtle cohesion that only helped the flow of the finished thing.
Everybody is complaining about the lack of time they have left to write once they have a locked picture. Well, guess what? The days of locked picture are over. So start early, before the first shot is in the can. The picture and the music are like clay that won't dry. Everything will be constantly changing, be in flux 'till it hits the theaters. And so it should. Look at 'World war Z' (I haven't yet). But someone had the courage to not lock that picture and take the time and vast amounts of money to fix it.

The only thing we never have enough of is time. Not agents, money and talent or opportunities. The time to create in solitude or with your director by your side. And you get the most 'quality time' before he's thrown into the maelstrom of the set and post production. Let him make use of your way of "hearing" the picture, let him be informed by how musicians think in long-form arches, how we think of dynamics, how hooks and the integrity of a theme are second nature to us, how we know how to pay an idea off in the last chorus, how we can tell a page of exposition sometimes with two notes. It's all rock 'n roll. Even Beethoven and Williams.
...and Jay, keep on hammering me  ! It makes me think about the validity of my process, and that is a gift from one composer to another!
H


----------



## Studio E

"TDK was shot with tempos we decided at the outset."

Not to belittle myself or pump you up Hans, but that is pretty cool and alien to me. I look forward to any future where I can have THAT kind of discussion with a director and really have the built in instinct that makes me know what the hell I'm actually talking about. Of course, so far I am scoring no budget indies about stuffed bunnies or local car commercials. I guess I still have a little way to go .


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Hans, you are a mensch. But I have never knowingly pointed a critical comment in this forum towards a contemporaneous composer of your stature, and I never will. I am not THAT pretentious 

And I think it is remarkable that you spend any time here talking to us. IfI were as busy and successful as you are, I probably would not, or would at least rarely.

I will however disagree with you re: locked picture vs up to the last minute "And so it should."

I don't expect you or many here to agree but I firmly believe that 30 years ago the AVERAGE film and the AVERAGE film score was better than now and that while I love technology, use technology, write books and columns on music technology, it is largely due to people using the technology in lieu of learning what people HAD to learn 30 years ago. This applies not only to composers by any means.

Also, I don't want the f-ing director by my side when I am composing.That is MY job, let me do it and let him go do his. I am not trained as a director and he probably is not trained as a musician. So have him tell me what he wants, I will share my vision, and hopefully it is compatible. The movie will be better probably for letting people do their jobs and not having so many cooks dipping their spoons into each and every pot.

Have you ever read Mancini's "Did They Mention The Music?"


----------



## germancomponist

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> ... I will share my vision, and hopefully it is compatible. The movie will be better probably for letting people do their jobs and not having so many cooks dipping their spoons into each and every pot



Jay, you can spare that "hopefully" if you see the director as a guy in your team and discuss everything beforehand.


----------



## Christof

Dear Rctec,

thank you for answering some of my questions, I appreciate this very much.It is very interesting to get a little insight into your world.

Also thanks for your condolences dear guys, death is such a strong part of life, but we have such problems to accept this.
Had a wonderful sunny and relaxing day with my family today


----------



## vinny

Whoaaa! What does Rctec stand for?

**The more I know,... the more I realise what I don't know...You know?


----------



## Christof

I suppose Rctec stands for Remote Control Technician, or am I wrong?


----------



## Rctec

Jay, if you leave out personal taste, I think that something like the score to "Hanna" or "There will be blood" is as great as anything that has come before. It's not the technology. Yes, the sensibilities of the world is constantly changing, but - if you leave the idea of academically 'correct' writing aside- (not 'art' but 'craftsmanship') I see a revolution in the broadening of the language taking place. And equally strong, a constriction, with people slavishly aping last years model. Force and counterforce, the normal law between the ordinary, banal and cheap, and people trying their hardest to create art. Not all revolutions are good. But give them time. There is a whole new language to be learned and explored. Someone, somewhere will come up with the next 'Starwars', but of this time. Remakes are nothing more than us re-telling Greek myths. The fundamental story never changes.... And as soon as we have learned how to be expert at a new language, we get comfortable and the sense of adventure and chaos will get lost. It's always the right time to through it all out and re-invent. It's never good enough - so all you can do is move forward and not mind getting the bloody nose from hitting a wall.
By the way, I think Bach and Beethoven where a lot better composers than any film composer. But I'd love Thomas Adés to have a go....


----------



## Ron Snijders

Isn't this evolution of music a thing that has always been going on? I can only assume that every generation, even in classical eras, will have had people saying that today's music lacks the craft of yesterday's. In their early days synthesizers weren't considered musical instruments by many, while nowadays I think they have opened whole new pathways of sound design. In the end, music is all about emotion, and I firmly believe that if it touches people, a brilliantly designed synth line can be as artful as a symphonic composition.

Then again, this opinion is coming from someone who can thoroughly enjoy the aesthetic of the sound of, for example, a piano. Even without producing any actual music, I love listening to the sound of a single note unfold. So my opinion might be quite off-center.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Rctec @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> Jay, if you leave out personal taste, I think that something like the score to "Hanna" or "There will be blood" is as great as anything that has come before. It's not the technology. Yes, the sensibilities of the world is constantly changing, but - if you leave the idea of academically 'correct' writing aside- (not 'art' but 'craftsmanship') I see a revolution in the broadening of the language taking place. And equally strong, a constriction, with people slavishly aping last years model. Force and counterforce, the normal law between the ordinary, banal and cheap, and people trying their hardest to create art. Not all revolutions are good. But give them time. There is a whole new language to be learned and explored. Someone, somewhere will come up with the next 'Starwars', but of this time. Remakes are nothing more than us re-telling Greek myths. The fundamental story never changes.... And as soon as we have learned how to be expert at a new language, we get comfortable and the sense of adventure and chaos will get lost. It's always the right time to through it all out and re-invent. It's never good enough - so all you can do is move forward and not mind getting the bloody nose from hitting a wall.
> By the way, I think Bach and Beethoven where a lot better composers than any film composer. But I'd love Thomas Adés to have a go....



You make a good argument. And I am astonished that you don't simply right, "Screw you Jay, what do you really know about it?" (Don't worry, someone WILL 

1. There are great scores (and films) in every era, of course. I was talking about the average.

2. When I hear people in a commercial industry talking about "art", I have a primal urge to worship the porcelain goddess 

In my mind, film scoring is first and foremost a craft, and if a craftsman works sincerely at it, sometimes, with just the right picture and just the right score, art does indeed happen, but when a composer scores a film and intentionally "tries their hardest " to be "artistic", in my judgement it usually fails both as art and craft.

3, Not all change is progress, some is regress. Indeed, only time gives us the lens to judge that and I could well be proven wrong. But I don't believe that 50 years from now, people will look back on this generation of films and film scores as a "golden era" they way the 60's and 70's era is now generally looked on.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

germancomponist @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jun 23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I will share my vision, and hopefully it is compatible. The movie will be better probably for letting people do their jobs and not having so many cooks dipping their spoons into each and every pot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jay, you can spare that "hopefully" if you see the director as a guy in your team and discuss everything beforehand.
Click to expand...


He is not a guy on my team, he is the Captain of the team. It is not "my film' it is HIS film.

So he tells me what he wants, I tell him what I think is best, and if we do not agree I must either give him what he wants or walk away.


----------



## dcoscina

I think it was very classy and considerate of Hans to take the time to address Christoph's original post. 

As a small aside, even in circles where people don't necessarily idolize Hans' music, his name comes up the most in the category of film composer you would most like to talk shop with over a beer. 

Some of our most talented composers have had let's say a slightly irascible nature to them and I've heard more than a few stories from fellow interviewers about how nasty some composers were during interviews. I have never heard such things about Hans who has been open, honest and friendly.

Some times it's not just about being a great composer but also being a great human being. Clearly that is why some film composers enjoy a long successful career and are in demand. I don't think this aspect should be under valued or underestimated.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

dcoscina @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> I think it was very classy and considerate of Hans to take the time to address Christoph's original post.
> 
> As a small aside, even in circles where people don't necessarily idolize Hans' music, his name comes up the most in the category of film composer you would most like to talk shop with over a beer.
> 
> Some of our most talented composers have had let's say a slightly irascible nature to them and I've heard more than a few stories from fellow interviewers about how nasty some composers were during interviews. I have never heard such things about Hans who has been open, honest and friendly.
> 
> Some times it's not just about being a great composer but also being a great human being. Clearly that is why some film composers enjoy a long successful career and are in demand. I don't think this aspect should be under valued or underestimated.



+1.


----------



## germancomponist

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> germancomponist @ Sun Jun 23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jun 23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I will share my vision, and hopefully it is compatible. The movie will be better probably for letting people do their jobs and not having so many cooks dipping their spoons into each and every pot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jay, you can spare that "hopefully" if you see the director as a guy in your team and discuss everything beforehand.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He is not a guy on my team, he is the Captain of the team. It is not "my film' it is HIS film.
> 
> So he tells me what he wants, I tell him what I think is best, and if we do not agree I must either give him what he wants or walk away.
Click to expand...


Jay, I aslo can say "you are a guy in his team".  Teamwork brings very often the best results. Ok, not always, bot mostly!? o-[][]-o


----------



## Rctec

For the sake of brevity...I think Bach worked for the major mogul and film studio of his time: the church. Tough deadlines, those Sundays . That he unquestionably produced art, in my opinion, was never by design but by being an extraordinary practiced craftsman first and foremost and - through a confluence of mysteries far beyond me - produced some great works of timeless art.

But if my ambition is not to create art - I'm not that arrogant or pretentious, I'm in the entertainment industry, and so are strippers - I have to have enough ambition to at least not make McDonalds. Otherwise I will be asking myself "what for?". 

No, I don't write with the director sitting there, next to me. Thats deadly. Writing is solitary, lonely and very, very private. (I literally just told the director on this project to take today off and leave me alone...I need to write.)

I very, very rarely get a director who tells me what to do, or makes me feel its his film exclusively. The great thing about working with people who have a vision is that they don't mind expanding their gaze with the input of others. Imax style  its an exploration, an expedition. It's usually the insecure hack that comes from few ideas that'll insist on me conforming to his narrow vision....which usually ends in something flat and boring that inevitably becomes a commercial failure.

H


----------



## Ron Snijders

In the end, I think it's not the craftsman, but the audience (and time  ) who decide which works are 'art' and which aren't. I think any artist (the irony of that word...) working with the idea that he should be making 'art' will end up with a forced, pretentious piece. Rembrandt's Night Watch was a commissioned piece that he gave a twist to. So in that respect, he was 'entertainment industry' as much as today's movie industry is. Yet the painting is considered art by today's standards. I think that goes for much of the work of classical composers as well. It's not as if Mozart's Magic Flute was not written to entertain people 

What I'm trying to say it that, in my opinion (and everyone's free to agree or disagree!), the call of whether or not entertainment is art, is mostly up to the next generations. Only time will tell


----------



## vinny

Hey Christof -thanks for responding
Okay, so what does a Remote Control Technician mean or do? Tried googling it, but nothing pertaining to composition applied.How does this relate to compositions +composers...already assume it has something to do with the "nasty" film industry.

Any info will enlighten me a tad
BTW: my mom passed May 7....I feel your pain brother!


----------



## Jetzer

Good questions Christof and very nice of HZ to answer them. Good topic.


----------



## wst3

I feel like I am about to implode... I agree with both Hans and Jay<G>!

Being the director means that you are the last word, you own the vision, and the responsibility for delivering on it. It's a lonely place sometimes.

A great director will collaborate with all the team, but they do so with the knowledge that this collaboration may have costs associated with it.

My youngest brother and I collaborated on theatrical productions for many many years, until we could no longer do so. He was the director, and I was a designer - lights, sound, music, sometimes all three<G>!

And he was a strong believer in collaboration. The cast drove the production as much as he or any of the designers. It was a very exciting process, but also very stressful - I was often making changes to my design right up to the final technical rehearsal.

For a lighting plot that's a big deal, but not terribly unusual, and quite manageable.

For a sound design it is bigger deal, and a bit out of the ordinary. It has become manageable in the last few years because I could bring all my tools with me on a laptop.

For music - recorded or played live - it borders on insane. It is not manageable, at least not today, with our budgets.

But we tried to do it anyway, because when it worked well the result was remarkable.

And when it worked it was largely because he kept in mind that he was the captain of the ship. When he lost sight of that things fell apart.

And that's why we do not work together anymore. But that's a different rant.

The point to all of this is that Jay is right - if the composer is allowed to do his job it generally results in a soundtrack that stands up to the test of time. And that was probably more often the case 30 years ago than it is today.

And Hans is right - given his position in the film community he can be involved from the start (obviously not always), and he can work his magic such that when it comes time to write the music a big part of his contribution is made - the framework within which the music will live. It's the ultimate collaboration - but when it comes time to write Hans still writes alone - just like the rest of us, except of course he's "him".

(aside - remember the more cowbell sketch on SNL? My favorite line was something to the effect that he put his pants on one leg at a time, like everyone else, but once those pants were on he was "The Bruce Dickinson".)

Two sides of the same coin... and Ron's point about whether or not entertainment is art highlights that.


----------



## Daniel James

Rctec @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> But if my ambition is not to create art - I'm not that arrogant or pretentious, I'm in the entertainment industry, and so are strippers - I have to have enough ambition to at least not make McDonalds. Otherwise I will be asking myself "what for?".



I like this part, I genuinely believe I was born an entertainer...its all I love to do and now I feel doubly secure knowing that if this whole music malarkey doesn't pan out I can always be a stripper  

I may even open a strip club with other failed or rookie composers....I can call it 'The G String' and I will serve McDonallds as the house meal. Two birds one stone!

-DJ


----------



## Darthmorphling

Rctec @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> But if my ambition is not to create art - I'm not that arrogant or pretentious, I'm in the entertainment industry, and so are strippers - I have to have enough ambition to at least not make McDonalds. Otherwise I will be asking myself "what for?".



I have a collection of quotes that I use in my 5th grade classroom. Some I can use as is and others I have to do some paraphrasing. My goal this summer is to somehow make this appropriate for 5th grade.

Maybe change strippers to clowns, or record execs?


----------



## Vlzmusic

While I do relate to Jay`s comments about today`s movie music versus "golden" eras - I just cannot accept the reasoning behind. I do not see it as a regress among composers - only as a fact that picture music has shifted away from emotional independence, and melodic, motif based practice moved away from being the "main".

As a viewer, I enjoyed Sherlock Holmes, (specially the second, hope they are coming back soon  ) and really had fun listening to the theme afterwards. Now - watching Man in black 3, or John Carter for that matter, really made me feel like the music "worked" great while in the theater, but not so in isolation. Should music really go beyond its screen time? I am not sure.

I do accept the fact that good melodic writing requires special talent nowadays, and that brings me to another viewer comparisons - "UP!" score, while being thematic and memorable - got me really distracted at some points, and I cannot say I enjoyed that music really - it demanded a LOT of attention to itself, and seemed really imposed to my taste. On the other hand - "Anna Karenina" had the music so involved, and also the mixing quite daring - I could not resist but watching the musicians and sound sources moving on screen,  but it all seemed justified. So I guess - nowadays, if you want to write melodic, emotional stuff, it better be darn good, cause its not so obvious anymore. I guess our perception got changed a lot as well. Is that a regress then? Quite the opposite in my view.

As a musician, I rarely deal with underscore, working in a private sector mostly, plus a bit of songs and mobile gaming themes. I don`t think I would ever go far in movies, since my roots are deep in musical theater, songs, opera and such. But I accept that rules for movie music have changed, and I feel much better when I hear well done job, even if I do things different myself, than going "urgh" on someones attempts to carry emotionally charged tune, without the required "qualification".


----------



## Guy Rowland

These threads always end up about MacDonalds....  



Vlzmusic @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> I do accept the fact that good melodic writing requires special talent nowadays, and that brings me to another viewer comparisons - "UP!" score, while being thematic and memorable - got me really distracted at some points, and I cannot say I enjoyed that music really - it demanded a LOT of attention to itself, and seemed really imposed to my taste. On the other hand - "Anna Karenina" had the music so involved, and also the mixing quite daring - I could not resist but watching the musicians and sound sources moving on screen,  but it all seemed justified. So I guess - nowadays, if you want to write melodic, emotional stuff, it better be darn good, cause its not so obvious anymore. I guess our perception got changed a lot as well. Is that a regress then? Quite the opposite in my view.



Up is a great example showing that the Death Of Theme is greatly exaggerated. It very much worked for me. I doubt that there will ever be a Hollywood animation that has the emotional clout that Up has in its first 10 minutes, and the music of course is integral to that. The rest of the film may fail to hit those extraordinary heights, but it's still very good - and its the themes that emotionally tie those threads together, that keep reminding the audience of what lies behind their absurd adventure. Other methods wouldn't have been nearly as effective imo, but of course others may disagree.

Major kudos to Hans here, btw - a deadline on Wednesday and writes all this good stuff here? Great to see the evolution of story and character being discussed.


----------



## jlb

I agree, it's amazing that you are taking the time to post here Hans and very interesting what you are saying. I have always felt the greatest composer who ever lived was Beethoven.

JLB


----------



## Kejero

Daniel James @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> [...]and now I feel doubly secure knowing that if this whole music malarkey doesn't pan out I can always be a stripper
> [...]
> -DJ



Daniel. I've seen your video blogs and I sincerely hope those will be the most revealing videos of you that will ever appear on the Internet.


----------



## George Caplan

so far ive read one revelation. bach and beethoven were better writers than film composers.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

George Caplan @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> so far ive read one revelation. bach and beethoven were better writers than film composers.



Shocking.What next, Stravinsky?


----------



## germancomponist

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> George Caplan @ Mon Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> 
> so far ive read one revelation. bach and beethoven were better writers than film composers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shocking.What next, Stravinsky?
Click to expand...


Wagner and Wagner and Wagner?


----------



## EastWest Lurker

germancomponist @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George Caplan @ Mon Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> 
> so far ive read one revelation. bach and beethoven were better writers than film composers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shocking.What next, Stravinsky?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wagner and Wagner and Wagner?
Click to expand...


True bur few film composers have been worse human beings.


----------



## germancomponist

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> True but few film composers have been worse human beings.



I think I know what you mean and I have to say that you are 100% right!


----------



## George Caplan

Rctec @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> For the sake of brevity...I think Bach worked for the major mogul and film studio of his time: the church.
> 
> H



a cantata a week. and those cantatas are really really good. bach knew he was brilliant. he must have done. but the church was incidental and not the main reason or money either that bach wrote music.


----------



## Peter Alexander

Boop.


----------



## Dave Connor

You gotta love Mr. Zimmer's extremely informed insights and remarks. Obviously a very thoughtful fellow. It certainly explains why each and every cue he writes seems to be so well considered. My personal opinion is that whatever solution he comes up with, _creativity_ is the dominant attribute in his work. I can think of no more difficult a task given the numerous considerations he sights as part of the modern film making process. However he may view himself, he has the soul and aims of an artist and to the delight of millions no less.


----------



## Waywyn

George Caplan @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> Rctec @ Sun Jun 23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the sake of brevity...I think Bach worked for the major mogul and film studio of his time: the church.
> 
> H
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a cantata a week. and those cantatas are really really good. bach knew he was brilliant. he must have done. but the church was incidental and not the main reason or money either that bach wrote music.
Click to expand...


YehI feel the same about Michelangelo. He just did it because he so enjoyed painting all over the sistine chapel ceiling!


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

George Caplan @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> Rctec @ Sun Jun 23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the sake of brevity...I think Bach worked for the major mogul and film studio of his time: the church.
> 
> H
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a cantata a week. and those cantatas are really really good. bach knew he was brilliant. he must have done. but the church was incidental and not the main reason or money either that bach wrote music.
Click to expand...


Nobody expected Bach to write a cantata every week. It was not a common practice back then and he did not get more money doing this! It was a task he set to himself and is an example of highest level of self motivation in my opinion. Especially considering that he did also a big amount of teaching and rehearsing every day, having a lot of children to care for and so on. And he didn´t even work in a "big place" which would have been hamburg, dresden or berlin back than where he would get much more reputation doing this. 
So who can compare to this nowadays? To me it was something else...


----------



## G.R. Baumann

Dear Hans,

Just saw TDKR yesterday.... very very good! May I ask, who's idea it was to quote Ravel's Pavane pour une infante defunte, it created a mesmerizing scene. Fantastic!

I always wondered if you dedicate time to listen to classical music, not Bruckner though :lol: , and what might be your favorite piano works.

As for myself, talk about John Sebastian, it helps me focus and concentrate when I read, apart from that, Alexandre Scriabin's and Schubert's piano works are those I cherish the most. 

Best wishes
Georg


----------



## George Caplan

Peter Alexander @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> Sorry, George, but that's the typical artsy view. Yes, you write for a living because you are internally driven to write, but Bach was constantly facing financial issues



peter thats not the artsy view at all. sure everyone at sometime faces financial issues but you dont say to yourself i have financial issues so ill become a musician and write music for a living in the first place regardless of the historical dates.

the reason i think bach wrote music was the same reason a cat purrs to itself.


----------



## George Caplan

Waywyn @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> George Caplan @ Mon Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rctec @ Sun Jun 23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the sake of brevity...I think Bach worked for the major mogul and film studio of his time: the church.
> 
> H
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a cantata a week. and those cantatas are really really good. bach knew he was brilliant. he must have done. but the church was incidental and not the main reason or money either that bach wrote music.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> YehI feel the same about Michelangelo. He just did it because he so enjoyed painting all over the sistine chapel ceiling!
Click to expand...


yeah. i had a listen to your music when i read your reply and i would like to as an amateur give your some musical advice. stay away from bach. it wont help you or do you any good based on the type of material you are currently writing.

and yes michaelangelo loved painting the sistine chapel and loved arguing with julius II but then again his art grounding was slightly different to say yours right? :lol: :lol:


----------



## Waywyn

George Caplan @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Mon Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, George, but that's the typical artsy view. Yes, you write for a living because you are internally driven to write, but Bach was constantly facing financial issues
> 
> 
> 
> 
> peter thats not the artsy view at all. sure everyone at sometime faces financial issues but you dont say to yourself i have financial issues so ill become a musician and write music for a living in the first place regardless of the historical dates.
> 
> the reason i think bach wrote music was the same reason a cat purrs to itself.
Click to expand...


I think it should be obvious that he didn't become a composer because of financial issues ... but as he got hired to write church music he had paid work, therefore he wrote ... and I personally believe lots of his church work wasn't/isn't famous because it was just ONLY purely awesome or god given or whatever, but due to the fact that he had a "marketing" concept/structure behind him!


----------



## Scrianinoff

It's not one or the other, it's both. Bach needed the money, _and _he had firm artistic ideals. For example the now so revered Passions, were grave disappointments to the church as well as the audience at the time. Still, Bach kept his ground and composed all 4 of them in this style. It's a pity that parts of some of them have been lost. Ah yeah, why have they been lost? Did I say they didn't like them?  Still they didn't fire him. Apparently he was more famous for his organ playing than his compositions. People at the time found his written music quite stale and pale compared to his improvisational skills at the organ and harpsichord. Why oh why God?!, didn't you let people invent recording equipment in 1685?


----------



## jaeroe

bach wrote because it was the family business - it was the trade he learned from his family(that's where most people learned a skill back then). he wrote WHAT he wrote because he was (or became) a genius.

just because something is a job doesn't mean it can't be elevated to an art. but, art comes with talent and a lot of hard work and time put into something. a large output was common in the church of yore as it is in the movie music business of today (and radio before that). look at all the radio shows that jerry goldsmith had to write for! of course, some works are better than others, but there is no substitute for checking out a ton of music, and writing a ton of music.

thanks for sharing, hans. amazing to hear from a prolific and creative person at the top of the game.


----------



## Consona

Scrianinoff @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> Why oh why God?!, didn't you let people invent recording equipment in 1685?


Hahaha :lol: God was busy killing people by plague I guess. :roll: 



jaeroe @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> just because something is a job doesn't mean it can't be elevated to an art.


Yes. Artist was just a profession in the western civilization since Ancient Greece to 19th century. I think we have a lot of pieces of art from those ages.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Rctec @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> 1. For the sake of brevity...I think Bach worked for the major mogul and film studio of his time: the church. Tough deadlines, those Sundays . That he unquestionably produced art, in my opinion, was never by design but by being an extraordinary practiced craftsman first and foremost and - through a confluence of mysteries far beyond me - produced some great works of timeless art.
> 
> 2. But if my ambition is not to create art - I'm not that arrogant or pretentious, I'm in the entertainment industry, and so are strippers - I have to have enough ambition to at least not make McDonalds. Otherwise I will be asking myself "what for?".
> 
> 3. No, I don't write with the director sitting there, next to me. Thats deadly. Writing is solitary, lonely and very, very private. (I literally just told the director on this project to take today off and leave me alone...I need to write.)
> 
> 4. I very, very rarely get a director who tells me what to do, or makes me feel its his film exclusively. The great thing about working with people who have a vision is that they don't mind expanding their gaze with the input of others. Imax style  its an exploration, an expedition. It's usually the insecure hack that comes from few ideas that'll insist on me conforming to his narrow vision....which usually ends in something flat and boring that inevitably becomes a commercial failure.
> 
> H



1. Agreed.

2. Disagree. Your own comments about Bach testify to this. If we try to serve the picture to the best of our ability sometimes art will happen, other times not.

3. I see, you were speaking metaphorically. My bad.

4. You're Hans Zimmer 
You're also lucky with your directors. The late great Jerry Fielding aggravated himself to three heart attacks, the last fatal, fighting with directors who wanted him to change things in a way he felt was wrong. And he was a great film composer. Spielberg has reduced JW to tears on occasion according to his music editor, Ken Wannberg.


----------



## dcoscina

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> Spielberg has reduced JW to tears on occasion according to his music editor, Ken Wannberg.



And yet Spielberg has massacred Williams' scores by editing the hell out of them. Some pretty awful music edits....


----------



## EastWest Lurker

dcoscina @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Spielberg has reduced JW to tears on occasion according to his music editor, Ken Wannberg.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yet Spielberg has massacred Williams' scores by editing the hell out of them. Some pretty awful music edits....
Click to expand...


Which is his right because it is HIS film, not JW's.

Film Composer101.


----------



## dcoscina

I suppose. I just find it funny to hear that he puts the screws to Williams and at the end of the day he still fucks with his music by editing it to fit his idea of the film. But, yes, that's his right. 

I am working with a director now that is apologizing for asking me to change so many things but I replied "no problem. It's your baby. I'm just here to help."


----------



## George Caplan

Waywyn @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> and I personally believe lots of his church work wasn't/isn't famous because it was just ONLY purely awesome or god given or whatever, but due to the fact that he had a "marketing" concept/structure behind him!



im sorry i dont understand a word youre talking about.

look no disrespect but all you people trying to compare bach and film music stop because youre beginning to sound like fucking idiots.

stick to either one thing or another. stop comparing the incomparable.


----------



## Waywyn

George Caplan @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> Waywyn @ Tue Jun 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> and I personally believe lots of his church work wasn't/isn't famous because it was just ONLY purely awesome or god given or whatever, but due to the fact that he had a "marketing" concept/structure behind him!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> im sorry i dont understand a word youre talking about.
Click to expand...


I was trying to say that if you back then were able to work for the church, you probably wrote a lot of music and it was also heard/played by a lot of people, no? So basically the church back then was the ideal marketing structure of its time enabling your music to survive throughout the centuries. Of course I am not saying that Bach is only known because he worked for the church, but I hope you know what I am trying to say now.


----------



## Daryl

Waywyn @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> George Caplan @ Tue Jun 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Waywyn @ Tue Jun 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> and I personally believe lots of his church work wasn't/isn't famous because it was just ONLY purely awesome or god given or whatever, but due to the fact that he had a "marketing" concept/structure behind him!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> im sorry i dont understand a word youre talking about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was trying to say that if you back then were able to work for the church, you probably wrote a lot of music and it was also heard/played by a lot of people, no? So basically the church back then was the ideal marketing structure of its time enabling your music to survive throughout the centuries. Of course I am not saying that Bach is only known because he worked for the church, but I hope you know what I am trying to say now.
Click to expand...

Actually that's not quite the case. Bach was considered old fashioned in his own lifetime and his music was not performed for quite a few years after his death. It was Mendelssohn who championed his music and helped it back into the public consciousness.

However, this whole discussion is built on a false premise. The best film music cannot be as good as the best concert music. If it was, it would be bad film music. Great music needs nothing else to be great. Great film music needs to work with the picture, so without the picture there is something missing. It is the same with ballet music. If it is great ballet music it needs the dancers. if it doesn't then it probably doesn't work well as a ballet, and therefore by definition it can't be great ballet music.

Having said that, when comparing composers (if it is ever sensible to do so) you should only compare when they are working in the same genre. Every genre has its own restrictions, so whilst there is common ground, there is not parity.

D


----------



## Waywyn

George Caplan @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> ...because youre beginning to sound like fucking idiots.



Oh boy, I knew why I was taking a break from this forum! I should again!


Thanks btw for the headsup Daryl!


----------



## mathis

Daryl @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> Great music needs nothing else to be great. Great film music needs to work with the picture, so without the picture there is something missing. It is the same with ballet music. If it is great ballet music it needs the dancers. if it doesn't then it probably doesn't work well as a ballet, and therefore by definition it can't be great ballet music.



So the Sacre du printemps isn't great concert music?


----------



## EastWest Lurker

mathis @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> Daryl @ Tue Jun 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great music needs nothing else to be great. Great film music needs to work with the picture, so without the picture there is something missing. It is the same with ballet music. If it is great ballet music it needs the dancers. if it doesn't then it probably doesn't work well as a ballet, and therefore by definition it can't be great ballet music.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So the Sacre du printemps isn't great concert music?
Click to expand...


Ironically, it works better as concert music than as a ballet. I think Igor would have been a lousy film composer.


----------



## dcoscina

Wow now we are all being called idiots. Maybe we should change the subtitle of this forum to Musicians Dissing Musicians.


----------



## Christof

Come on friends, you are bashing my thread, back to normality!
This is not a kindergarden here isn't it?


----------



## Darthmorphling

Christof @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> Come on friends, you are bashing my thread, back to normality!
> This is not a kindergarden here isn't it?



Kindergartners are normally better behaved. They can also be sent on time out :mrgreen:


----------



## Daryl

mathis @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> Daryl @ Tue Jun 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great music needs nothing else to be great. Great film music needs to work with the picture, so without the picture there is something missing. It is the same with ballet music. If it is great ballet music it needs the dancers. if it doesn't then it probably doesn't work well as a ballet, and therefore by definition it can't be great ballet music.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So the Sacre du printemps isn't great concert music?
Click to expand...

I've just read Jay's comment and I agree. Sacre is better without the dancers. :wink: 

D


----------



## musophrenic

Christof @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Come on friends, you are bashing my thread, back to normality!



To paraphrase Obadiah Stane from Iron Man 1, "You really think, just because you came up with a thread, that it belongs to you?"

It's pretty interesting, actually, how often a VI-C thread takes on a life of its own, making itself more than just a thread, sometimes becoming something else entirely. In some cases, legend, Mr Wayne.

I may be hopped up on superheroes as MOS FINALLY opens in Australia today and I'm going to see it tomorrow. Don't mind me; carry on.


----------



## Rctec

@georg B. I listen to a lot of classical music. Favorite piano piece? Changes with my mood. But can you beat the second Shostakovich piano concerto, second movement?

Can Film music stand on its own two feet? Randomly, I think "Close Encounters" or most of Morricone's music can. Walton's "Battle in the air" (and they sort of fired him of the movie...) is pretty impressive... Shostakovich's enormous output of film scores are obviously pretty great. Has Arvo Peart ever not written a filmscore?

Back on topic...the question of "Visual Media Composer"... Strangely, the first person I thought of was Stravinsky...ballet music is a visual medium. And I was thinking about the fight Diaghilev had with the 19 year old Prokofieff, rejecting his "Scythian Suite". That second movement is a great action cue (and it comes with full-on "Jaws" bass-line). I bet you - having that tossed - hurt!

I don't ever lack inspiration. I sometimes mistake bad inspiration for good...but I write pretty much every day. So it's like running. You keep on developing muscles. I'm fucked when I take a break...coming back to writing is sheer torture. It's like the muse is still on holiday, sitting by a pool with a drink, and there is a deafening silence in my head. Deadlines are good for getting inspiration. The fear of failure can be quite inspiring. And then there is knowing what you want to write about. That's a big one for me.

I try to do the best I can within the time and talent I have. Sometimes the idea is better than the execution. But I try not to get stuck and noodle things to death (he says, knowing he's taking a break from absolutely perfecting the life out of a piece by over-thinking it and spending hours programming expression curves... The word hear is "Verschlimmbeßern...)
I get inspiration from everything other than music. Books, paintings, Monty Python, sex and death. Everything is about sex, except sex. Sex is about power (Oscar Wilde), Oh, did I mention "Death"? Very German 
And where have the fun movies gone to? Like Bambi - which traumatized me as a kid? I got my revenge with Lion King: kill dad, and then fart jokes. It's all about balance.... 
-H-


----------



## Rctec

Christof, the more like a kindergarten it is, the more creativity will emerge. Don't underestimate the word "Play" when it comes to music!
-H-


----------



## passenger57

> @georg B. I listen to a lot of classical music. Favorite piano piece? Changes with my mood. But can you beat the second Shostakovich piano concerto, second movement?


Hans, I'm floored and very pleasantly surprised you mentioned that. It's one of my favorites of all time!


----------



## Dan Mott

Hey Hans

How are you with the ladies? You a bit of a pimp? :D


----------



## valexnerfarious

Dan-Jay @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> Hey Hans
> 
> How are you with the ladies? You a bit of a pimp? :D


LMAO


----------



## dcoscina

Dan-Jay @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> Hey Hans
> 
> How are you with the ladies? You a bit of a pimp? :D



Classic.


----------



## dgburns

Christof @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> Come on friends, you are bashing my thread, back to normality!
> This is not a kindergarden here isn't it?



http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=y2R3FvS4 ... 2R3FvS4xr4

sorry,it's all I got  

and I all of a sudden feel better about my recent habit of "farting around" with stuff at the end of the day at the keyboard.felt guilty about it forever,but maybe it's the time I do my best thinking/playing around ...


----------



## Generdyn

Hey Rctec (Hans)

Do you write music for your own enjoyment and fun, or are you constantly doing commercial productions in movies ?

I've always wondered what your music would sound like if your were left to your own imagination and could write WHATEVER you wanted. For myself, I've noticed that my music sounds "different", if not a little better when I have a set deadline to finish the final product. I'm not exactly sure why that is though...


Regards,
Generdyn


----------



## G.R. Baumann

Rctec @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> @georg B. I listen to a lot of classical music. Favorite piano piece? Changes with my mood. But can you beat the second Shostakovich piano concerto, second movement?



Thank you Hans, yes Sir, I think so! :wink: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCzvc3Cl6xE

Seriously though, I just came across this here and perhaps it might be interesting enough to some folks here as well. Perosnally, I was always fascinated with the deeper cognitive connections of music and neuroscience.



> Auditory hallucinations – both speech and music – sometimes occur at, or, perhaps, trigger moments of intense insight or inspiration. Vladimir Nabokov wrote of his hypnagogic hallucinations. Robert Schumann transcribed some of his musical hallucinations believing that he was taking dictation from Franz Schubert. A hallucinatory voice formed the foundation of Rainer Maria Rilke greatest work.



https://itunes.apple.com/us/itunes-u/music-and-the-brain-symposium/id480026138#

I think that a composer for film is always on the edge of creating the "Poem of Ecstasy", desribed so eloquently in Henry Miller's Nexus as a bath of ice, cocain and rainbows, and which Scriabin composed in his opus 54.


----------



## G.R. Baumann

opus 54... 

it is such music that creates entire films in my brain....if I'd only found a director to produce them. :lol: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz0sL44Ll_0

P.S. Actually, I just came to realize what a "fantastic film composer" Scriabin was in deed. 

The above perfromance is one of a kind!


----------



## G.R. Baumann

> Music, Mind, and Meaning
> 
> Marvin Minsky
> 
> Computer Music Journal, Fall 1981, Vol. 5, Number 3



Perhaps of interest:

http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/papers/MusicMindMeaning.html


----------



## Peter Alexander

Ernst Toch was an Academy Award nominated composer who was self taught. Interesting story. Worth a read.

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/is ... schler.htm


----------



## Daryl

Rctec @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Can Film music stand on its own two feet? Randomly, I think "Close Encounters" or most of Morricone's music can. Walton's "Battle in the air" (and they sort of fired him of the movie...) is pretty impressive... Shostakovich's enormous output of film scores are obviously pretty great. Has Arvo Peart ever not written a filmscore?


I'm not saying that film/ballet music can't stand on it's own. I just think that the best music doesn't need any visuals. I once saw a ballet set to Brahms' 4th symphony, and had to close my eyes because the dancing was so off putting. The choreography wasn't bad. It was just unnecessary.

FWIW I think that Walton was fired because his music was actually too attention grabbing and interesting. :wink: 

D


----------



## germancomponist

Rctec @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Christof, the more like a kindergarten it is, the more creativity will emerge. Don't underestimate the word "Play" when it comes to music!
> -H-



... and in many other areas as well. o-[][]-o


----------



## Waywyn

George Caplan @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> yeah. i had a listen to your music when i read your reply and i would like to as an amateur give your some musical advice. stay away from bach. it wont help you or do you any good based on the type of material you are currently writing.



Thank you! Made my day! This is about the worst comment I was reading EVER on a forum!

For sure, tell someone who paints white house walls (or lacquer cars etc.) at his daily job to stay away from Van Gogh as it might not do good based on the type of work he is currently doing!

...

I mean seriously. This forum was such a cool place. What happened? Where is all this bad energy coming from? There is no day passing I am reading insults, personal and music style bashing, accusations and other stuff. I know I should just ignore it, but it seems as one doesn't really have a choice to ignore it, since it just jumps on your face on every corner during the last months!


----------



## Christof

> look no disrespect but all you people trying to compare bach and film music stop because youre beginning to sound like fucking idiots.
> 
> stick to either one thing or another. stop comparing the incomparable.



Yeah, energy is rising!

Come on George, Bach isn't incomparable, neither Mozart or Beethoven.
Everything is comparable, it helps us grow and approach maybe a small step towards these guys.
Go and listen to the first two bars of Mozarts Clarinet concerto, second movement, I guess it will make you cry, only these first 6 notes of the clarinet.(Even used in the score from out of africa).

Same with Bach St.John passion, first few bars, this is pure drama, like film music.

By the way it would be cool if you could switch your tone a bit, we all want to be friends right?Even in a Kindergarden 
I mean I invited a forum member to answer some interesting questions about his workflow and now we end up talking about the incomparability of Bach and those members who sound like 'fucking idiots'? 
Peace on earth.


----------



## Martin K

> I know I should just ignore it, but it seems as one doesn't really have a choice to ignore it, since it just jumps on your face on every corner during the last months!



Alex, please ignore it! You're an inspiration and one of the reasons this forum is still cool 

best,
Martin


----------



## Rctec

Hey, Dan-Jay, how are you with people? A bit of an Arse-hole?


----------



## jlb

Rctec @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Hey, Dan-Jay, how are you with people? A bit of an Arse-hole?



It is such a shame to see silly stuff like this, this is HANS ZIMMER guys, I mean for crying out loud...

I saw MOS last night and really enjoyed the quieter scenes, the 'What are you going to do when you not saving the world' scene by Jonathan's grave at the end was moving. I don't know if the crossover in the cinema was set too high or something, but in the Zod versus Superman action scenes I could hardly hear the music at all.

Best Wishes

JLB


----------



## Jdiggity1

Rctec @ Wed 26 Jun said:


> Hey, Dan-Jay, how are you with people? A bit of an Arse-hole?



burn


----------



## George Caplan

Waywyn @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> George Caplan @ Tue Jun 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah. i had a listen to your music when i read your reply and i would like to as an amateur give your some musical advice. stay away from bach. it wont help you or do you any good based on the type of material you are currently writing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you! Made my day! This is about the worst comment I was reading EVER on a forum!
> 
> For sure, tell someone who paints white house walls (or lacquer cars etc.) at his daily job to stay away from Van Gogh as it might not do good based on the type of work he is currently doing!
> 
> ...
> 
> I mean seriously. This forum was such a cool place. What happened? Where is all this bad energy coming from? There is no day passing I am reading insults, personal and music style bashing, accusations and other stuff. I know I should just ignore it, but it seems as one doesn't really have a choice to ignore it, since it just jumps on your face on every corner during the last months!
Click to expand...


what are you talking about now! i mean what are you talking about.

i went to the trouble to listen to your music and then gave you the best advice anyone could give you. you make money from music. you get involved with people like js bach and you would die from starvation. that wasnt an insult. that was the best advice you ever had. i have played bach at the keyboard more or less every day for the last 54 years. try to understand the difference.

you have chosen a different path and that is all good. but you wouldnt understand bach et al if your life depended on it. you should embrace that and rely and trust what you do. not waste time with comments that could taken as an illustration of musical insecurity or lack of technique for example.


----------



## Christof

At least we still talk about german composers!

I think George wants to tell us that some people can't understand the music of Bach.
Life is hard!


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Giant egos shadow and mar the landscape, mouthing their insecurities in the form of bad jokes or pedantic advice,
Fortunately, there are still many pearls of wisdom to be found in this and other stained threads - clearly worth holding one's nose for.
Now for some Shostakovich...


----------



## dcoscina

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Giant egos shadow and mar the landscape, mouthing their insecurities in the form of bad jokes or pedantic advice,
> Fortunately, there are still many pearls of wisdom to be found in this and other stained threads - clearly worth holding one's nose for.
> Now for some Shostakovich...



+1


----------



## George Caplan

christof you are a trained musician. that is good.

i very much doubt based on my listening and i will say enjoyable in the main experience here that 90 plus percent of the people here can play a c major scale both hands at speed up and down a keyboard. 

pedantic advice? practice your scales every day. i was able to do all the usual things you are supposed to do examwise over the years and hold down a full time job completely divorced from music in any way. people here want to be full time musicians writing music that others will pay to hear and they cant even play a scale. imean really. :lol:


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

George, why don't you go write a letter to your local paper(s) instead of boring us with your experience and wisdom? Perhaps you can find another forum with real musicians like you this time?


----------



## Waywyn

Christof @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> At least we still talk about german composers!
> 
> I think George wants to tell us that some people can't understand the music of Bach.
> Life is hard!



Yeh, sorry for the hijack ... I am now heading back to the protozoon area. Maybe I have success by unpeeling that banana today ... and learn about those complicated ... how are they called ... oh yes, triads!


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

George Caplan @ 26/6/2013 said:


> Ii very much doubt based on my listening and i will say enjoyable in the main experience here that 90 plus percent of the people here can play a c major scale both hands at speed up and down a keyboard.



Based on listening.
Right.
Well based on listening, I can tell that most composers here write in the nude. And they fart their cadences first, to check the emotional impact before committing.
Based on listening, I think that it's amazing that all these bedroom composers can record an entire orchestra every night.


----------



## Christof

> christof you are a trained musician. that is good.



Do you think Waywyn isn't a trained musician?

I am a trained Cello player, not a trained composer.
I'm a good cello player and I try to be a good composer.

Is Hans Zimmer a trained composer?As far as I know not.
Does he need to play a c major scale both hands at speed up and down a keyboard?
As far as I know not.

What is the definition of a musician?
I know artists who can play a c major scale both hands at speed up and down a keyboard at 200BPM but they still are no musicians to me.


----------



## George Caplan

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> George Caplan @ 26/6/2013 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ii very much doubt based on my listening and i will say enjoyable in the main experience here that 90 plus percent of the people here can play a c major scale both hands at speed up and down a keyboard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Based on listening.
> Right.
> Well based on listening, I can tell that most composers here write in the nude. And they fart their cadences first, to check the emotional impact before committing.
> Based on listening, I think that it's amazing that all these bedroom composers can record an entire orchestra every night.
Click to expand...


if you write for money i can understand that. i mean sorry but you couldnt play your way out of a paper bag right? your inferiority slip is showing. just accept that youre crap at playing and move on. trained musicians spend a lifetime, a lifetime trying to get to their very best level. by training mostly on a formal basis. not by buying the latest noise every 10 seconds. i am bored with this place and find my interest in film music is almost nil.

ive been trying get off this forum forever. i asked if you would delete my account twice already and no reply. please do so at once.


----------



## Christof

But why George, why did you join this thread if you are so bored with this place and film music in general?


----------



## Hannes_F

This forum sometimes is a training camp for ...

. . . not taking the bait . . . 

Apart from that, quite some jewels in this thread, thank you.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

George Caplan @ 26/6/2013 said:


> ive been trying get off this forum forever. i asked if you would delete my account twice already and no reply. please do so at once.



None of us can help you, man. Have you considered writing a note to one of the mods or to Fred? Perhaps, just to be sure, you can also purge VI-Control from your bookmarks and browser history. Finally, there's always biting your tongue.


----------



## Waywyn

George Caplan @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> christof you are a trained musician. that is good.
> 
> i very much doubt based on my listening and i will say enjoyable in the main experience here that 90 plus percent of the people here can play a c major scale both hands at speed up and down a keyboard.
> 
> pedantic advice? practice your scales every day. i was able to do all the usual things you are supposed to do examwise over the years and hold down a full time job completely divorced from music in any way. people here want to be full time musicians writing music that others will pay to hear and they cant even play a scale. imean really. :lol:



I am sorry George, but how do you come to the conclusion to know about ones instruments chops, skills and talents by just listening to a bit of music from their website? Why do you accuse me (since you were initially refering to me) of not being able to play my instrument? Not knowing my scales? Do you even know which instrument I play? Do you know since how many years?

Seriously, this is ridiculous!
Another kudos to the very narrow minded selective cognition pattern of some peoples brains!


----------



## Dan Mott

Rctec @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Hey, Dan-Jay, how are you with people? A bit of an Arse-hole?



Goodness me. I thought you'd actually be amused by what I said. 

And no... I am certainly not an asshole with people. Opposite... in fact..


----------



## Rctec

Dear George,
I hire trained musicians to play my scores. They are interpreters of music, I'm the composer, the creator of the music that they then perform. Different skill set. Unfortunately you don't seem to know the difference, hence my overly pedantic explanation. There are only 24 hours in the day for all of us. I spend most of my time practicing how to be better at composing, not playing, while players spend most of their time practicing their scales and learning how to interpret someone else' music. Most musicians are not composers.

Makes sense?


----------



## Rctec

Dan-Jay, can't take a joke?


----------



## Dan Mott

Rctec @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Dan-Jay, can't take a joke?



For real? haha. There was no smiley or indication that you were joking... so...

If you were. GREAT! o=?


----------



## EwigWanderer

This forum is just great! =o 

..when you don't take everything so seriously..

Going to see MOS tonight. Premiere here in Finland. After that it's time to listen the score...


----------



## Lex

George Caplan @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> pedantic advice? practice your scales every day. i was able to do all the usual things you are supposed to do examwise over the years and hold down a full time job completely divorced from music in any way. people here want to be full time musicians writing music that others will pay to hear and they cant even play a scale. imean really. :lol:



That's it, you nailed it. I was just sitting here contemplating how all I write is meaningless, thinking *"Curse you life! If only I could play C major scale really really fast!!"*

alex


----------



## Hannes_F

Rctec @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Most musicians are not composers.



Even if some are both ... thinking as a composer definitely helps a lot with playing (meaningful) but the other way round it does not necessarily work well. Because being a player means a quite specialized view whereas a composer usually is more of a generalist. 

Informations are fine but only as long as they don't produce limits. Actually me being a player gets into the way of me being a composer big time.


----------



## wlotz

I have a feeling that some guys here know nothing about tension release, feels like either wife or a hand does a horrible job. Sometimes even a simple task such as regular visits in the toilet every morning can make a huge difference…


----------



## dgburns

George Caplan @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> christof you are a trained musician. that is good.
> 
> i very much doubt based on my listening and i will say enjoyable in the main experience here that 90 plus percent of the people here can play a c major scale both hands at speed up and down a keyboard.
> 
> pedantic advice? practice your scales every day. i was able to do all the usual things you are supposed to do examwise over the years and hold down a full time job completely divorced from music in any way. people here want to be full time musicians writing music that others will pay to hear and they cant even play a scale. imean really. :lol:



Your statements can be taken with some aggression in them.Maybe partly because they do in fact hold a bit of truth in them.It is true that as Composers,we have a responsibility to ourselves firstly,to be able to negotiate the language of music.in the past,that meant being a capable performer of one's own works,and also it helped to be able to play numerous instruments.I find this also useful in my day to day because I can't simply afford to hire out musicians based on time/budget constraints.That's my choice,but today,it IS possible to create music/scores that others find satisfying without playing outside the daw/seq .
If you take the C scale you so fondly talk about,and reflect on what it is actually saying musically,you start to see the world from the composer point of view,not the performer point of view.I bet you never thought to ask yourself why Bach structured the music as he did?We,as composers must always question,and consider structure in music first and foremost.Playtime becomes a way of deconstructing the music to try and discover new ways of fitting it all together.This is the place my mind goes to,and not in trying to perfect playing someone else's music as it is written.even Bach himself improvised well.I bet not many people today playing Bach would dare to mess around with the notes on the page.
How fast I can play any scale on piano,guitar or violin is simply not helping me create music.and while it may be important for some to retrace the footsteps of Bach,or any other composer in an attempt to understand the logic and craft of their music,it simply has a small place in the minds of those who want to "go explore" new avenues of thinking.To me,this is a much more interesting place to be,rather than simply reciting someone else's music.
imho of course-
david


----------



## Ellywu2

Lex @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> That's it, you nailed it. I was just sitting here contemplating how all I write is meaningless, thinking *"Curse you life! If only I could play C major scale really really fast!!"*
> 
> alex



Likewise - some days, when I am devoid of inspiration, bereft of creativity, cursed with the thudding knowledge that anything I create will fade from memory with my passing I blame it on the C Major scale and my inability to play it quickly.

Screw you C Major, Crusher of Dreams and Destroyer of Worlds.


----------



## George Caplan

Rctec @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Dear George,
> I hire trained musicians to play my scores. They are interpreters of music, I'm the composer, the creator of the music that they then perform. Different skill set. Unfortunately you don't seem to know the difference, hence my overly pedantic explanation. There are only 24 hours in the day for all of us. I spend most of my time practicing how to be better at composing, not playing, while players spend most of their time practicing their scales and learning how to interpret someone else' music. Most musicians are not composers.
> 
> Makes sense?



well hans have you ever stopped to wonder how much a better writer you might be if you could actually play well. look at john williams. look at both bernsteins. look at herrmann. these guys could play. and play well.

you think bach or beethoven allowed their playing skills to get in the way of their composition? you think those two practiced composing? they just played it. great writers throughout time are usually ..usually.. the greatest writers. mozart? pretty good player by all accounts yes? lived to 35. not many hours in the day there right?


----------



## Ed

We could always know more George. What instruments can William's play? Every instrument of the orchestra? Can you imagine how much better he would be as a composer if he could play every instrument of the orchestra?


----------



## jaeroe

even in the concert music domain, since berlioz there have been plenty of exceptional composers that were not particularly good at any one instrument. wagner was no master of an instrument, but he was a master of the orchestra. the last 100 years have seen more and more specialization on this front (focusing on composing and less so on mastering an instrument) and there have been plenty of amazing composers that fit into that camp - both camps.

as time goes on, there is more material from the past to familiarize oneself with and more sounds available. there's no reason one can't learn about the orchestra and synthesizers, or whatever else. things don't need to be exclusive. if something sounds good, it sounds good. the proof is in the pudding. knowing whether or not someone has 'formal training' (whatever that means these days) is irrelevant. good musical instincts are just that and can be developed many different ways.

fwiw - a study of juilliard grands showed that 10 years out only 10% were working in the music business. i have a friend who is an amazing string player, but juilliard likes him because he is an alumn with a record deal (..... new age piano).....


----------



## Madrigal

Speaking of limited hours in a day, this tread should end now. 

When veteran professionals are kind enough to come here and give their advice to aspiring composers, we shouldn't let trolls seize the opportunity to lower the perceived quality of the forum and its members.


----------



## Hannes_F

George Caplan @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> *great writers* throughout time are usually ..usually.. the *greatest writers*.



The first time I could nearly agree with you, George. But only almost.

Whereas this



George Caplan said:


> you think bach or beethoven [...] you think those two practiced composing? they just played it.



is quite flawed and indicates that you don't seem to know much about composing as a creative process. The actual composing per se can be totally immaterial and not at all restricted to the physical handling of instruments, DAWs or pencil and paper while those might be the second step that immediately follows.

Yes, Beethoven practised composing and I assume Bach did, too.


----------



## jaeroe

Hans - 

(thanks for sharing with us) - how does developing a sound palette for a project and developing technology (stuff like Zebra and the upcoming perc library with Spitfire) fit into your schedule? do you find you generally do that stuff as you go, or all the time, or at the beginning of or in between projects?


----------



## germancomponist

George Caplan @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Rctec @ Wed Jun 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dear George,
> I hire trained musicians to play my scores. They are interpreters of music, I'm the composer, the creator of the music that they then perform. Different skill set. Unfortunately you don't seem to know the difference, hence my overly pedantic explanation. There are only 24 hours in the day for all of us. I spend most of my time practicing how to be better at composing, not playing, while players spend most of their time practicing their scales and learning how to interpret someone else' music. Most musicians are not composers.
> 
> Makes sense?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well hans have you ever stopped to wonder how much a better writer you might be if you could actually play well. look at john williams. look at both bernsteins. look at herrmann. these guys could play. and play well.
> 
> you think bach or beethoven allowed their playing skills to get in the way of their composition? you think those two practiced composing? they just played it. great writers throughout time are usually ..usually.. the greatest writers. mozart? pretty good player by all accounts yes? lived to 35. not many hours in the day there right?
Click to expand...


George, 

your words are not funny anymore. Give me a composer who can play very well all wind instruments, all string instruments, guitar, drums and what not. Ah yes, and sure he has also to be a good singer.... . What nonsense you talk here!


----------



## wlotz

Madrigal @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Speaking of limited hours in a day, this tread should end now.
> 
> When veteran professionals are kind enough to come here and give their advice to aspiring composers, we shouldn't let trolls seize the opportunity to lower the perceived quality of the forum and its members.


+1


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Rctec @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Dan-Jay, can't take a joke?



Already it is happening. "Familiarity breeds contempt."

Dan-Jay's question was inappropriate, just as was the girl who asked President Clinton if he wore boxers or briefs, which to his discredit he answered, instead of telling her it was inappropriate.

I am glad you have joined in Hans and you are a better man than me, because in your shoes I would have said to myself, "Why do I need this?"


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Rctec @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Dear George,
> I hire trained musicians to play my scores. They are interpreters of music, I'm the composer, the creator of the music that they then perform. Different skill set. Unfortunately you don't seem to know the difference, hence my overly pedantic explanation. There are only 24 hours in the day for all of us. I spend most of my time practicing how to be better at composing, not playing, while players spend most of their time practicing their scales and learning how to interpret someone else' music. Most musicians are not composers.
> 
> Makes sense?



Which is what makes a guy like James Newton Howard so remarkable, no? If I could unzip my "Jay Asher" suit and step into one of another composer, it might be him.

Not that you, sir, are a slouch


----------



## Rctec

Dear George, I play well enough. But just like a director hires me for my skills, I will hire a musician for his skills.
Have you ever looked at a Beethoven score original? He didn't just play it. More crossed-out bars and violent deletions...There is enough evidence to think he spend 25 years on and off working on ideas for the Ninth. Just listen to his Choral Symphony...
But you -willfully?- miss the point. Yes, John Williams was one of the great session keyboard players. But I don't think his playing has gotten better over time. His composing has.
Same with Mozart. The last three symphonies show an evolution that points at him just really getting going. Just because he was so phenomenally brilliant to begin with doesn't mean his compositions wouldn't have evolved with more time and maturity. That's the tragedy. Not that time ran out for him to practice scales.
But really, how good a player do you have to be to create the melodic and harmonic material in the "Ave Verum Corpus", the second movement of the clarinet concerto or "Don Giovanni"? It's about the composition, not the playing...it's about being aware and internalizing what has come before, and then forgetting it, so you can actually create beyond the triviality of crude muscle memory. There are enough kids in this world that have an abundance of technique at their instrument. But it's not composing and sometimes it doesn't even sound like music....


----------



## Christof

Amen


----------



## Resoded

George Caplan @ 26th June 2013 said:


> ive been trying get off this forum forever. i asked if you would delete my account twice already and no reply. please do so at once.



+1

This makes a lot of sense.


----------



## jlb

Madrigal @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Speaking of limited hours in a day, this tread should end now.
> 
> When veteran professionals are kind enough to come here and give their advice to aspiring composers, we shouldn't let trolls seize the opportunity to lower the perceived quality of the forum and its members.



+1,000,000 

JLB


----------



## dcoscina

George Caplan @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Rctec @ Wed Jun 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dear George,
> I hire trained musicians to play my scores. They are interpreters of music, I'm the composer, the creator of the music that they then perform. Different skill set. Unfortunately you don't seem to know the difference, hence my overly pedantic explanation. There are only 24 hours in the day for all of us. I spend most of my time practicing how to be better at composing, not playing, while players spend most of their time practicing their scales and learning how to interpret someone else' music. Most musicians are not composers.
> 
> Makes sense?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well hans have you ever stopped to wonder how much a better writer you might be if you could actually play well. look at john williams. look at both bernsteins. look at herrmann. these guys could play. and play well.
> 
> you think bach or beethoven allowed their playing skills to get in the way of their composition? you think those two practiced composing? they just played it. great writers throughout time are usually ..usually.. the greatest writers. mozart? pretty good player by all accounts yes? lived to 35. not many hours in the day there right?
Click to expand...


Dude you have some pretty big balls to say this to someone at Hans' level. 

Also, no one is holding a gun to your head to visit this forum. If you don't like it, just don't stop in.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

It doesn't take balls. It takes arrogance.

I am going to come clean here. I have huge respect for Mr. Zimmer but if I were to list "My Ten Favorite Film Composers of All Time" he would not be on it.

But I have enough humility to also recognize that that says _nothing_ about the quality of his work and _everything_ about my own taste and prejudices.


----------



## dgburns

Rctec @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Dear George, I play well enough. But just like a director hires me for my skills, I will hire a musician for his skills.
> Have you ever looked at a Beethoven score original? He didn't just play it. More crossed-out bars and violent deletions...There is enough evidence to think he spend 25 years on and off working on ideas for the Ninth. Just listen to his Choral Symphony...
> But you -willfully?- miss the point. Yes, John Williams was one of the great session keyboard players. But I don't think his playing has gotten better over time. His composing has.
> Same with Mozart. The last three symphonies show an evolution that points at him just really getting going. Just because he was so phenomenally brilliant to begin with doesn't mean his compositions wouldn't have evolved with more time and maturity. That's the tragedy. Not that time ran out for him to practice scales.
> But really, how good a player do you have to be to create the melodic and harmonic material in the "Ave Verum Corpus", the second movement of the clarinet concerto or "Don Giovanni"? It's about the composition, not the playing...it's about being aware and internalizing what has come before, and then forgetting it, so you can actually create beyond the triviality of crude muscle memory. There are enough kids in this world that have an abundance of technique at their instrument. But it's not composing and sometimes it doesn't even sound like music....



I get the feeling you could try and yell,but some people will just not get it.time to go play some ukulele.
(and think about what lunch will be while we're at it)
can we close this now?


----------



## Dave Connor

Rctec @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> @georg B. I listen to a lot of classical music. Favorite piano piece? Changes with my mood. But can you beat the second Shostakovich piano concerto, second movement?-H-



How about that! The last classical piece I listened to (two nights ago with score in hand -- which is within reaching distance still) was the 2nd movement of the Shostakovich 2nd Piano Concerto. Only the second movement, which I just needed to hear. It's really very simple but masterfully written and a very touching piece of music. A model of economic orchestrating as well. Also a great bit of Neo Classicism in the way it looks backward and forward at the same time.


----------



## dcoscina

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> It doesn't take balls. It takes arrogance.
> 
> I am going to come clean here. I have huge respect for Mr. Zimmer but if I were to list "My Ten Favorite Film Composers of All Time" he would not be on it.
> 
> But I have enough humility to also recognize that that says _nothing_ about the quality of his work and _everything_ about my own taste and prejudices.



Amen Jay. 

On the topic of Shostakovich, his 10th Symphony Second Mvmnt is a freaking masterpiece of sustained intensity. that and his Symphony 11 1st mvmt (used in Eisenstein's October) also has an almost unmatched ferocity. The wind writing is unreal. 

I will have to check out Shosty's 2nd Piano Concerto. I love his Cello Concertos.


----------



## Dave Connor

Daryl @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> Bach was considered old fashioned in his own lifetime...D


Not true actually and not a scientific viewpoint if you think about it: i.e. he _wasn't_ old fashioned but rather the cutting edge of his time. He was moving well beyond his models Buxtehude, Vivaldi, Telemann etc. The _old fashioned_ misnomer seems to have come about because his sons moved so strongly away into the _Style Galant_ and may have seen their father as representing the old school. Bach was simply the pinnacle of the Baroque era but couldn't have been seen as old fashioned while he was climbing that mountain peak.

Mozart and Beethoven had the preludes and fugues tucked under their arms and were heavily influenced by Bach. In Mozart's case, his good friend and mentor J.C. Bach introduced him to his father's work. Mozart underwent a personal crisis as a composer when confronted with these towering achievements. He completely re-evaluated his work and so you find far more contrapuntal writing in his later works such as the last three symphonies HZ mentioned in this thread.The opening fugue of Beethoven's C#minor quartet is a beautiful take on Bach's contrapuntal technique. That these leaders who were establishing the modern compositional vernacular would constantly copy and employ the style and technique of their hero J. S. Bach is an indication of the _opposite_ of the tired 'old fashioned' concept, long debunked by scholars.


----------



## kdm

Rctec @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Same with Mozart. The last three symphonies show an evolution that points at him just really getting going. Just because he was so phenomenally brilliant to begin with doesn't mean his compositions wouldn't have evolved with more time and maturity. That's the tragedy. Not that time ran out for him to practice scales.
> But really, how good a player do you have to be to create the melodic and harmonic material in the "Ave Verum Corpus", the second movement of the clarinet concerto or "Don Giovanni"? It's about the composition, not the playing...it's about being aware and internalizing what has come before, and then forgetting it, so you can actually create beyond the triviality of crude muscle memory. There are enough kids in this world that have an abundance of technique at their instrument. But it's not composing and sometimes it doesn't even sound like music....



Well said and very true. 

And thank you for taking time to post here. I enjoy reading your insights and experiences - and especially your optimistic and enthusiastic view of this craft and industry. It helps, especially when constantly faced with the harsh realities of composing as as career with a family to support, and little else to fall back on. 

I hope the criticisms some send your way don't diminish your interest in conversing with other composers here. Your work and success speak for themselves, and I think most here have a great deal of respect for you. I hope that success continues for you.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Dave Connor @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Daryl @ Tue Jun 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bach was considered old fashioned in his own lifetime...D
> 
> 
> 
> Not true actually and not a scientific viewpoint if you think about it: i.e. he _wasn't_ old fashioned but rather the cutting edge of his time. He was moving well beyond his models Buxtehude, Vivaldi, Telemann etc. The _old fashioned_ misnomer seems to have come about because his sons moved so strongly away into the _Style Galant_ and may have seen their father as representing the old school. Bach was simply the pinnacle of the Baroque era but couldn't have been seen as old fashioned while he was climbing that mountain peak.
> 
> Mozart and Beethoven had the preludes and fugues tucked under their arms and were heavily influenced by Bach. In Mozart's case, his good friend and mentor J.C. Bach introduced him to his father's work. Mozart underwent a personal crisis as a composer when confronted with these towering achievements. He completely re-evaluated his work and so you find far more contrapuntal writing in his later works such as the last three symphonies HZ mentioned in this thread.The opening fugue of Beethoven's C#minor quartet is a beautiful take on Bach's contrapuntal technique. That these leaders who were establishing the modern compositional vernacular would constantly copy and employ the style and technique of their hero J. S. Bach is an indication of the _opposite_ of the tired 'old fashioned' concept, long debunked by scholars.
Click to expand...


Well stated, Dave. Bach is the exclamation point on the Baroque period, not old-fashioned.


----------



## nicoroy123

Hi Hans, 
First of all, thank you so much for taking the time to share with us. Really appreciated. I am a big fan of your work. 

If I may, here is a question. I would like to know how much of the sound itself or the mix is taken into consideration at the composition stage?
I am asking because in most of your epic themes, (ie Crimsom Tides Roll Tide or POTC He’s a Pirate, just to name a few), the melodies and chords progressions, while kept relatively simple still contain am unmatched amount of emotions and energy. I have the impression that this energy to a certain level may come from a very delicate equilibrium between some timbres, sounds or from a particular mix?

So is it something you have mind while composing, or something you discuss with Alan M. at the mixing stage? 
Best regards
Nicolas


----------



## jaeroe

Dave Connor @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Daryl @ Tue Jun 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bach was considered old fashioned in his own lifetime...D
> 
> 
> 
> Not true actually and not a scientific viewpoint if you think about it: i.e. he _wasn't_ old fashioned but rather the cutting edge of his time. He was moving well beyond his models Buxtehude, Vivaldi, Telemann etc. The _old fashioned_ misnomer seems to have come about because his sons moved so strongly away into the _Style Galant_ and may have seen their father as representing the old school. Bach was simply the pinnacle of the Baroque era but couldn't have been seen as old fashioned while he was climbing that mountain peak.
Click to expand...


sorry - i have to agree with daryl here. eventually, during his time bach came to be considered by many old-fashioned and in many ways conservative. there is a lot of primary sourcing for this - people's letters, etc. but, then again - so was beethoven (eventually, towards the end of his life).

yes, he was cutting edge in terms of what he actually accomplished, and as with most cutting edge people, he wasn't fully appreciated during his time. but, the idea of his being eventually considered old-fashioned is well accepted in the field of musicology/music history. he was very well respected, though (firstly as an organist).

mozart, beethoven, and many many more rightly recognized the genius of bach. but, he wasn't appreciated in his day, at large, as he is now. the world, and a composer's audience, were certainly different then, but he is appreciated much more now (and generally in death) than he was during his lifetime.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Dave Connor @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Daryl @ Tue Jun 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bach was considered old fashioned in his own lifetime...D
> 
> 
> 
> Not true actually and not a scientific viewpoint if you think about it: i.e. he _wasn't_ old fashioned but rather the cutting edge of his time. He was moving well beyond his models Buxtehude, Vivaldi, Telemann etc. The _old fashioned_ misnomer seems to have come about because his sons moved so strongly away into the _Style Galant_ and may have seen their father as representing the old school. Bach was simply the pinnacle of the Baroque era but couldn't have been seen as old fashioned while he was climbing that mountain peak.
> 
> Mozart and Beethoven had the preludes and fugues tucked under their arms and were heavily influenced by Bach. In Mozart's case, his good friend and mentor J.C. Bach introduced him to his father's work. Mozart underwent a personal crisis as a composer when confronted with these towering achievements. He completely re-evaluated his work and so you find far more contrapuntal writing in his later works such as the last three symphonies HZ mentioned in this thread.The opening fugue of Beethoven's C#minor quartet is a beautiful take on Bach's contrapuntal technique. That these leaders who were establishing the modern compositional vernacular would constantly copy and employ the style and technique of their hero J. S. Bach is an indication of the _opposite_ of the tired 'old fashioned' concept, long debunked by scholars.
Click to expand...


I think there are nuances to be made. Bach stayed just as appreciated as a great composer after his death, but was over shadowed for a short while to the popular public by new superficial trends: abundance of arpeggios, runs, all sorts of virtuosic devices, maybe it was felt as a liberation of these rigorous contrapuntal techniques imposed for so many years, kind of like the "peace and love" years. It also makes sense, people like fresh sounds. So in that context, he had become old fashion, however, it's always the craftiest composers who passes the test of time.


----------



## impressions

Pages 3-5= candies. 
Was that the final round?

Just tossing some wood here...

Even Bach was an entertainer. Maybe more alike to Scott Joplin at his living time than Mozart. 
How people sanctify music like its a paganic god from hell. Its entertainment. You can practice all the time you want but those aren't the things that creates musicality. Or worse being able to entertain. 
Knowledge can be hazardous to a composer when he tries something fresh but instead just repeats himself. Knowledge is thinking- while composing is imagination and emotion. Do you know of rock bands George? Those "dumb" clueless guitarists and vocalist who had zero knowledge but could put 100% authencity to emotion with minimal notes and harmony. Or as de Vinci said "simplicity is the ultimate sophistication". 

Meh.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Some music is more than just entertainment in the judgement of history


----------



## impressions

You're referring to music that inspires people for action. But what it really does is give us comfort, or challenge us to inspire others. And then we sell it. 

Rock music maybe changed history with human awerness, but it quickly became a product of entertainment. 

Bob marley was a good preacher for music, but his impact on history compared to wars/politics/science?

Music's contribution is cultural and spiritual(to those that seek it). It's like a defining period. I'm not sure it's ever been the turning tide.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

impressions @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> You're referring to music that inspires people for action. But what it really does is give us comfort, or challenge us to inspire others. And then we sell it.
> 
> Rock music maybe changed history with human awerness, but it quickly became a product of entertainment.
> 
> Bob marley was a good preacher for music, but his impact on history compared to wars/politics/science?
> 
> Music's contribution is cultural and spiritual(to those that seek it). It's like a defining period. I'm not sure it's ever been the turning tide.



Man, that is painting with a very broad brush.

In between being equal in historical impact to "wars/politics/science" and being relegated to "entertainment" is a wide swash. You might want to shoot for somewhere in the middle there


----------



## Daryl

Dave Connor @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Daryl @ Tue Jun 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bach was considered old fashioned in his own lifetime...D
> 
> 
> 
> Not true actually and not a scientific viewpoint if you think about it: i.e. he _wasn't_ old fashioned but rather the cutting edge of his time. He was moving well beyond his models Buxtehude, Vivaldi, Telemann etc. The _old fashioned_ misnomer seems to have come about because his sons moved so strongly away into the _Style Galant_ and may have seen their father as representing the old school. Bach was simply the pinnacle of the Baroque era but couldn't have been seen as old fashioned while he was climbing that mountain peak.
> 
> Mozart and Beethoven had the preludes and fugues tucked under their arms and were heavily influenced by Bach. In Mozart's case, his good friend and mentor J.C. Bach introduced him to his father's work. Mozart underwent a personal crisis as a composer when confronted with these towering achievements. He completely re-evaluated his work and so you find far more contrapuntal writing in his later works such as the last three symphonies HZ mentioned in this thread.The opening fugue of Beethoven's C#minor quartet is a beautiful take on Bach's contrapuntal technique. That these leaders who were establishing the modern compositional vernacular would constantly copy and employ the style and technique of their hero J. S. Bach is an indication of the _opposite_ of the tired 'old fashioned' concept, long debunked by scholars.
Click to expand...

Not that I want to argue with you, but I think you misunderstand. I'm not talking about Composers such as Mozart or Beethoven, who surely did know and admired Bach's music, I'm talking about general opinion. It is well documented that whilst Bach was writing some of his late masterpieces public opinion much preferred the newer music of his sons. Which makes the general consensus that J.S. Bach was considered old fashioned in his lifetime. As I said.

D


----------



## impressions

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> impressions @ Wed Jun 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man, that is painting with a very broad brush.
> 
> In between being equal in historical impact to "wars/politics/science" and being relegated to "entertainment" is a wide swash. You might want to shoot for somewhere in the middle there
Click to expand...

Name your target


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Daryl @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> [
> Which makes the general consensus that J.S. Bach was considered old fashioned in his lifetime. As I said.
> 
> D



Daryl, considering how little was written in terms of reviews that survive, no polls taken, etc. may I ask how you arrive at that conclusion?


----------



## Guy Bacos

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Daryl @ Wed Jun 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> Which makes the general consensus that J.S. Bach was considered old fashioned in his lifetime. As I said.
> 
> D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daryl, considering how little was written in terms of reviews that survive, no polls taken, etc. may I ask how you arrive at that conclusion?
Click to expand...


Are you saying that as a fact? Are you really sure that there are nothing around that will back this up?


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Guy Bacos @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daryl @ Wed Jun 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> Which makes the general consensus that J.S. Bach was considered old fashioned in his lifetime. As I said.
> 
> D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daryl, considering how little was written in terms of reviews that survive, no polls taken, etc. may I ask how you arrive at that conclusion?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you saying that as a fact? Are you really sure that there are nothing around that will back this up?
Click to expand...


No, just asking, because I respect both Dave and Daryl a lot.


----------



## Guy Bacos

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Wed Jun 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daryl @ Wed Jun 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> Which makes the general consensus that J.S. Bach was considered old fashioned in his lifetime. As I said.
> 
> D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daryl, considering how little was written in terms of reviews that survive, no polls taken, etc. may I ask how you arrive at that conclusion?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you saying that as a fact? Are you really sure that there are nothing around that will back this up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, just asking, because I respect both Dave and Daryl a lot.
Click to expand...


Not sure what that says about me. I'm sure you meant that in a respectful way.


----------



## kutai

It is widely written that Bach was sort of "respectfully despised" during his lifetime, especially by his younger colleagues. I remember something about a young composer-music critic (Johann Adolf Scheibe) admiring Bach's organ chops but finding his music complex and tasteless. 

Some sources on this subject, if you have time to read... (Just googled "Scheibe" and "Critische Musicus", the journal in which the criticism in question appeared in 1734)

http://www.bw.edu/academics/libraries/b ... Dec.15.pdf

and Scheibe's later thoughts on Bach here (1744)...

http://www.geocities.jp/imyfujita/wtcpage1242.html


Bach was well respected by his peers (like Telemann) but widely regarded as old fashioned. He was sort of forgotten until Schumann and Mendelssohn popularized his works along with others (like Schubert). However, even today there are musicians blatantly hating Bach, finding his music pretentious.

I think it is alright to be unpopular. What I most admire about bach (in this context) is, rather than changing his whole musical approach he held his ground. Well, he was stubborn wasn't he (thankfully). 

P.S. I am not a music historian, not even a professional musician so above information might be partially wrong and possibly irrelevant. Also I am not being pedantic, I just wanted to contribute something to the discussion. Cheers :D


----------



## Peter Alexander

It's an excellent contribution. Thank you!


----------



## Peter Alexander

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Daryl @ Wed Jun 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> Which makes the general consensus that J.S. Bach was considered old fashioned in his lifetime. As I said.
> 
> D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daryl, considering how little was written in terms of reviews that survive, no polls taken, etc. may I ask how you arrive at that conclusion?
Click to expand...


See: Evening in The Palace of Reason.
http://www.amazon.com/Evening-Palace-Reason-Frederick-Enlightenment/dp/0007156618/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372283026&sr=8-1&keywords=evening+in+the+palace+of+reason (http://www.amazon.com/Evening-Palace-Re ... +of+reason)


----------



## jaeroe

hans has definitely left the room - 

re bach - as i mentioned before, it is well accepted/established in musicology/music history via primary sources (people's letter, etc at the time) that bach eventually fell out of favor and as a composer was considered old-fashioned. many books on music history state this - randomly grabbing the first book i see on my shelf ('the lives of great composers' by harold schonberg) states exactly this on p.39. took all of 1 minute to find. i also had a number of well respected music history prof's way back in the days of school (doug johnson, for one) and this a point he made clear, as is the route his music went after his death.

he was definitely well respected during his lifetime, but firstly as an organist, and he did eventually become looked upon as out dated as a composer while alive. mozart, beethoven, and mendelssohn all had personal copies of the well tempered clavier, and they were coveted things - not like today with dover. (i forget who it was, but one composer claims to have sat on his score of well tempered clavier while composing in the hopes that it would bring him some of bach's inspiration - again, known from correspondence). 

mendelssohn did play a significant role in brining bach's work back around - and then there was a general shift in people starting to play works of composers of the past. liszt was hugely instrumental in that general shift.


----------



## Dan Mott

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jun 27 said:


> Rctec @ Wed Jun 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dan-Jay, can't take a joke?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Already it is happening. "Familiarity breeds contempt."
> 
> Dan-Jay's question was inappropriate, just as was the girl who asked President Clinton if he wore boxers or briefs, which to his discredit he answered, instead of telling her it was inappropriate.
> 
> I am glad you have joined in Hans and you are a better man than me, because in your shoes I would have said to myself, "Why do I need this?"
Click to expand...


Inappropriate? It was a joke. Just like Hans response. I wanted to get some humor into this thread. I expected a response like "oh yeah Dan-Jay, you know it " or something, but if that insulted Hans, then yeah I apologize. 

Also, I do not need a HZ wing man to tell me what's inappropriate for him or not.


----------



## Daniel James

What is it about Germany that makes it produce such Composers.... My money is on the sausages, there must be a secret ingredient within!

Reading this thread is totally fascinating for me! As someone who never got a proper music history education its great to hear people speak so passionately about music that has completely bypassed me. I mean of course I know who Bach, Beethoven etc are but I have never really listened to their work in much depth. Imagine how you felt when you heard some of these bits of history for the first time, yeah thats how I am going right now.....on that note if anyone has any 'recommended listening' for me I am all ears, particularly works that seem to inspire the most deeply.

Haha and please don't judge me there! I, like most, am a product of my environment. I didn't know anyone who listened to this music when I was growing up so it was never around for me to listen to....much in the same way I didn't see Star Wars until last year, no one I knew watched that kind of thing so it never appealed to me. Got to love the internet, you guys are the only people I know who share an interest for this type of music xD

-DJ


----------



## EthanStoller

Daniel,

I cannot recommend Dr. Robert Greenberg's lectures from The Great Courses highly enough. He tells great stories and uses copious musical examples to illustrate them. Entertaining, fascinating, enlightening. At under $100 for the audio download version, his overview of Western Music course is an amazing bargain:

http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/cour ... px?cid=700

It was the first one I heard and I've bought every single one of his other lectures since then, where he goes into great detail on the great composers.


----------



## Ryan Scully

Daniel James @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> What is it about Germany that makes it produce such Composers.... My money is on the sausages, there must be a secret ingredient within!
> 
> Reading this thread is totally fascinating for me! As someone who never got a proper music history education its great to hear people speak so passionately about music that has completely bypassed me. I mean of course I know who Bach, Beethoven etc are but I have never really listened to their work in much depth. Imagine how you felt when you heard some of these bits of history for the first time, yeah thats how I am going right now.....on that note if anyone has any 'recommended listening' for me I am all ears, particularly works that seem to inspire the most deeply.
> 
> Haha and please don't judge me there! I, like most, am a product of my environment. I didn't know anyone who listened to this music when I was growing up so it was never around for me to listen to....much in the same way I didn't see Star Wars until last year, no one I knew watched that kind of thing so it never appealed to me. Got to love the internet, you guys are the only people I know who share an interest for this type of music xD
> 
> -DJ





So many great places to go from here Dan - and you've certainly hit a great spot for recommendations.

You've probably heard it many times in places before but as a start to Beethoven I would definitely recommend his 6th Symphony(The Pastoral). As a film composer I think you would find a lot of enjoyment in it as it is program music set to a walk in the countryside - a true marvel in composition and orchestration.

For me, few musical works in its entirety hit me with the same emotional impact as Faure's Requiem. Again, you've most certainly heard excerpts of it such as "In Paradisium" but there is so much to learn and appreciate from it.


Ryan


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Dan-Jay @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Also, I do not need a HZ wing man to tell me what's inappropriate for him or not.



Too bad, need it or not, write something like that, you are going to hear about it from me.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Ryan Scully @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Daniel James @ Wed Jun 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is it about Germany that makes it produce such Composers.... My money is on the sausages, there must be a secret ingredient within!
> 
> Reading this thread is totally fascinating for me! As someone who never got a proper music history education its great to hear people speak so passionately about music that has completely bypassed me. I mean of course I know who Bach, Beethoven etc are but I have never really listened to their work in much depth. Imagine how you felt when you heard some of these bits of history for the first time, yeah thats how I am going right now.....on that note if anyone has any 'recommended listening' for me I am all ears, particularly works that seem to inspire the most deeply.
> 
> Haha and please don't judge me there! I, like most, am a product of my environment. I didn't know anyone who listened to this music when I was growing up so it was never around for me to listen to....much in the same way I didn't see Star Wars until last year, no one I knew watched that kind of thing so it never appealed to me. Got to love the internet, you guys are the only people I know who share an interest for this type of music xD
> 
> -DJ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So many great places to go from here Dan - and you've certainly hit a great spot for recommendations.
> 
> You've probably heard it many times in places before but as a start to Beethoven I would definitely recommend his 6th Symphony(The Pastoral). As a film composer I think you would find a lot of enjoyment in it as it is program music set to a walk in the countryside - a true marvel in composition and orchestration.
> 
> For me, few musical works in its entirety hit me with the same emotional impact as Faure's Requiem. Again, you've most certainly heard excerpts of it such as "In Paradisium" but there is so much to learn and appreciate from it.
> 
> 
> Ryan
Click to expand...


The 6th is my favorite as well.


----------



## Dan Mott

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jun 27 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Wed Jun 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I do not need a HZ wing man to tell me what's inappropriate for him or not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad, need it or not, write something like that, you are going to hear about it from me.
Click to expand...


Hmm. Perhaps you need to loosen up a little. Stop taking things so seriously...

Think Hans can stand up for him self. He doesn't need a suck festival and I certainly do not need parenting from you.

Thanks.


----------



## Dave Connor

jaeroe @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> sorry - i have to agree with daryl here. eventually, during his time bach came to be considered by many old-fashioned and in many ways conservative. there is a lot of primary sourcing for this - people's letters, etc. but, then again - so was beethoven (eventually, towards the end of his life).


I've seen scholarly work that debunks the myth but we can set that aside. Since the man was adored and copied up and down by the greatest composers in history who succeeded him how is he unappreciated or old fashioned? Bach's audience was church members mainly. Since Jerry Goldsmith's audience was movie goers you can guarantee he was unappreciated by them. But people in his field know what a huge talent he was. You could say he's old fashioned now only years after his death but styles have changed is all. The old fashioned moniker eventually applies to everyone but Bach isn't unique if someone wants to say that. You said yourself that Beethoven was called the same.

So no, I don't accept the notion that the modernest that followed Bach and stole everything they could from the guy thought he was an old fogie any more than the Beatles looked down on Elvis. He was the one guy they were dumbstruck at when in his presence and they were in front of Royalty all over the world.


----------



## Dave Connor

I did see Daryl's post where he maintains that the average person thought Bach was old fashioned at some point but this is precisely what scholars that I have read have said is completely untrue. Bach's audience was the church and those folks weren't writing reviews so as Jay asked, what sources are there in this regard?


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Dan-Jay @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> [ I certainly do not need parenting from you.
> 
> Thanks.



Perhaps, but I am telling you what you will get.

You're welcome.


----------



## passenger57

> On the topic of Shostakovich, his 10th Symphony Second Mvmnt is a freaking masterpiece of sustained intensity.



For years Shostakovich used to have his bags packed waiting for the KGB to take him away. Sometimes he'd hear a kock at a door in the building while his neighbors we're arrested in the middle of the night. He even worked it into some of his pieces. Shostakovich 8 quartet has a dramatic 'knocking' motif. 

Little did he know that Stalin decided never to arrest him. But Stalin delighted in arresting and murdering millons. It was his favorite hobby. 

An endlessly fascinating and great composer. I love the Russian composers. 

An amazing read if you get the chance. This was my favorite book in collage. 

http://www.amazon.com/Testimony-The-Memoirs-Dmitri-Shostakovich/dp/087910998X (http://www.amazon.com/Testimony-The-Mem ... 087910998X)


----------



## Arbee

Daniel James @ Thu Jun 27 said:


> ... I, like most, am a product of my environment....


As was, and is, and will be the case for every composer including Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Leonard Bernstein, John Williams and Hans. It is no wonder we struggle to comprehend the thought processes of past composers, we don't live in their cultural environment or their time.

.


----------



## G.R. Baumann

*Scales? You gotta be kidding me!*

Just to share a thought. With great astonishment I read about playing scales to enhance skills here. 

I thought that this particular instrument of torture to train musical performers was ditched since long, it was surpassed when I was trained by my teachers, thankfully, and that is more than 4 decades ago already. 

Who needs scales if he has over 500 Scarlatti Sonatas to choose from for that matter? Believe you me, you do not reach such level of musical virtuosity by exercising scales. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FiZc7kbrWw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-oVkAKBgOo

On the matter of John Sebastian, I think it to be very wrong to proclaim that listening to or performing his music will not do anything for musical growth when someone writes the way Alex Pfeffer does. Quite the contrary.

Allowing your brain the "intellectual contra point" should be a daily exercise to gain space for new musical inspriation and insight.

On a side note, it is sad to see such thread drift into unpleasantries! I imagine how people would behave if we all would sit together in his studio, being invited to join him on a discussion about music, it should be the same spirit here, should it not?


----------



## Waywyn

G.R. Baumann @ Thu Jun 27 said:


> On the matter of John Sebastian, I think it to be very wrong to proclaim that listening to or performing his music will not do anything for musical growth when someone writes the way Alex Pfeffer does. Quite the contrary.
> 
> Allowing your brain the "intellectual contra point" should be a daily exercise to gain space for new musical inspriation and insight.



You know, it goes even a bit further. Only because one writes trailer music or does boombash hybrid demos once in a while, it totally doesn't mean that it is the only thing one is (interested in) doing! Let me explain about this experience I did a long time ago:

Back then to me it was all about being a guitar virtuoso. I was playing Satriani and Malmsteen shit. I became that arrogant and obsessed about speed and complexity that I was smiling about some world record guy doing 12 notes per second. I seriously "thought" I was better only because I was able to play as fast (or a bit faster than) as him. And during the time in LA it was all about sight reading all these little etudes, jazz standards and stuff. Later on Frank Gambale even named me "little Holdsworth" in the jazz/fusion improv class. What an honor actually! Man, was I awesome!!! (I hope you see the irony!)

Then I came back to Germany and started playing in a rock/pop band. From an intellectual/virtuoso point of view this was like coming back from a quantum physics studying time to some elementary school. I totally felt stupid to just play three chords and do two note alternating arpeggios. But after a while I realized that it was about something completely different. About delivering emotions and writing great things with simple elements and getting direct feedback from the people when playing live. Trailer music is similar in a way. It is not about "theoretically showing off". It is mostly about making people thrilled for a movie and eventually create goosebumps.

So in the end, I had this experience in a guitar-ish way. Learning all that complex stuff and trying to achieve that virtuoso status ... for what?? To come back and die? You can't make a living from noodling around and once in a while receiving these eye brow raised nodding gestures from other "virtuosos", but that doesn't mean I am not interested in it anymore ... and most important, when observing all those virtuosos around me, some of them very really struggling very hard to even stay alive (or worse, had a completely different day job).

The same now as for composing and make a living from it (and actually appreciating to make a living from music), I enjoy by trying to make the simple stuff right and try to grow, as you said, G.R. Baumann on the complex stuff. And actually if there is a gig to write Disney cartoonish more complex stuff such as it happened in Rush Kinect it was a total pleasure but it doesn't happen very often). Maybe in around 20 years or so, I am totally fed up and get into whatever classical music, but currently I see no reason to work on this "getting accepted/approved by highly trained classical composers stamp" and achieve that artistic level. I want to enjoy my life and be happy with what I do!


Anywaym, sorry I was drifting away a bit but felt like saying this!
Finally I want to thank this thread for dropping Scriabin because when I listened to his "Mysterium" I was totally struck and moved ... and to be honest I never heard of him before!


----------



## Christof

> Finally I want to thank this thread for dropping Scriabin because when I listened to his "Mysterium" I was totally struck and moved ... and to be honest I never heard of him before!


Seriously or irony?


----------



## Waywyn

Christof @ Thu Jun 27 said:


> Finally I want to thank this thread for dropping Scriabin because when I listened to his "Mysterium" I was totally struck and moved ... and to be honest I never heard of him before!
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously or irony?
Click to expand...


I am absolutely serious! To be honest, while listening to it, I could totally understand why Scriabin thought that he seemed to have found the power to destroy the universe with his music and create a new one! (please correct me but thats what I was reading besides listening to him).


----------



## G.R. Baumann

Alex,

The mystic chord: C, F♯, B♭, E, A, D here :D 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mlfc34s430

Might enjoy this read as well

http://faculty.washington.edu/jdwest/russ420/skriabin.pdf


----------



## germancomponist

Beethoven performed in a completely other way:


----------



## Waywyn

G.R. Baumann @ Thu Jun 27 said:


> Alex,
> 
> The mystic chord: C, F♯, B♭, E, A, D here :D
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mlfc34s430
> 
> Might enjoy this read as well
> 
> http://faculty.washington.edu/jdwest/russ420/skriabin.pdf



Haha, yeh, that mystic chord!!
Thank you for the links and pdf!


----------



## Lex

germancomponist @ Thu Jun 27 said:


> Beethoven performed in a completely other way:




That's just horrible...terrible...why did I click on it...
*back to listening MOS*


alex


----------



## germancomponist

Lex @ Thu Jun 27 said:


> That's just horrible...terrible...why did I click on it...



Yeah, have you seen in the video? The audience has fled.


----------



## Inductance

Daniel James @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> Haha and please don't judge me there! I, like most, am a product of my environment.



Daniel, we shouldn't be apologetic for our interests and influences. These are part of who we are. I think what's important is to always be willing to listen to, seek out, and accept new material, and that we're honest with ourselves about what appeals--and doesn't appeal--to us. :D


----------



## EastWest Lurker

We are totally entitled to like what we like, not like what we don't.

IMHO, where people go wrong is in equating that to, "If Ilike it, it is great" and "If I don't like it, it is not great."

I like "Wild Things" by The Troggs, probably because it was so much fun to sing and play when I was in a rock band as a teen. It is not great music by any reasonable standards. 

I do not care for most Shostakovich pieces. Most pieces by Shostakovich however are great music by ny reasonable standards.


----------



## reddognoyz

the ocarina solo in wild thing is perhaps mankind's greatest accomplishment, everything else is rubbish


----------



## Inductance

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jun 27 said:


> IMHO, where people go wrong is in equating that to, "If Ilike it, it is great" and "If I don't like it, it is not great."



Yeah, I worked with a younger guy that totally believed this. He always thought that whatever he was into was the greatest thing in the world, and he got upset when others didn't share his enthusiasm. Kind of immature.

I think the root of a lot of arguments around here--not just when it comes to disagreements over composers and styles--is that people aren't used to dealing with differing viewpoints. I see that all the time here and in other message boards--people read something they disagree with and they go absolutely bonkers. "OMG, how could you say that?!" 

It's okay to disagree, it's okay to have different opinions. The world will not end, and just because someone thinks the music I listen to is crap isn't going to affect how I enjoy it in the least. And my opinion shouldn't affect how they enjoy their stuff, either.

I've spent a way too much time arguing on message boards over the years, which is probably why people's opinions don't bother me all that much anymore...


----------



## jaeroe

Dave Connor @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> jaeroe @ Wed Jun 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> sorry - i have to agree with daryl here. eventually, during his time bach came to be considered by many old-fashioned and in many ways conservative. there is a lot of primary sourcing for this - people's letters, etc. but, then again - so was beethoven (eventually, towards the end of his life).
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen scholarly work that debunks the myth but we can set that aside. Since the man was adored and copied up and down by the greatest composers in history who succeeded him how is he unappreciated or old fashioned? Bach's audience was church members mainly. Since Jerry Goldsmith's audience was movie goers you can guarantee he was unappreciated by them. But people in his field know what a huge talent he was. You could say he's old fashioned now only years after his death but styles have changed is all. The old fashioned moniker eventually applies to everyone but Bach isn't unique if someone wants to say that. You said yourself that Beethoven was called the same.
> 
> So no, I don't accept the notion that the modernest that followed Bach and stole everything they could from the guy thought he was an old fogie any more than the Beatles looked down on Elvis. He was the one guy they were dumbstruck at when in his presence and they were in front of Royalty all over the world.
Click to expand...




Dave Connor @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> I did see Daryl's post where he maintains that the average person thought Bach was old fashioned at some point but this is precisely what scholars that I have read have said is completely untrue. Bach's audience was the church and those folks weren't writing reviews so as Jay asked, what sources are there in this regard?



you're sort of calling the kettle black here - you mention scholarly works, but don't cite any. you talked about daryl being unscientific, but then in your OP espouse what seems to be your own opinion about how you think things should have been perceived at that time. i have never seen anyone claim that bach, during his day, was seen as being ahead of his time. and i've read a ton on music history. read kerman, bekker, tovey, rosen - i don't think you'll find that view.

daryl's original comment was that, during his lifetime, bach eventually became considered old-fashioned. you then mention what composers born after his death thought of him? my point is, during his lifetime, he was not held in as high a regard as he is today - the last 200 years he's been held in higher regard than during his lifetime.

the fact that mozart, beethoven, etc thought hugely of bach and studied what little they could get of this works is separate from how bach was considered during his day. it is well known how much beethoven was influenced by bach, especially from the quartets on. but, he didn't grow up knowing bach's music as we do today. he had to search it out. and then he incorporated it into what came after - he didn't just copy it (he made further developments - he wasn't content to keep it where it was). post death, bach was known primarily as a composer of organ and klavier music until mendelssohn started staging the passions in the 19th century. 

couple of facts - all well support by historic documents(from institutions, etc), and included in many books on bach and music history:

bach was buried in an unmarked grave (haydn, buried 9 years later, had a huge grave site in england). he wasn't a pauper at death ala mozart, but he wasn't revered.

bach's sons held higher positions than their father - p.e. was employed by king frederick who could have had anyone he wanted. he chose p.e. who wrote, as you mention, in 'stile galant' not 'stile antico' (the old style) - p.e. was generally held in higher regard by then.

in his 40's, bach was the committee's 3rd choice for the post in Leipzig, behind Telmann and Graunper (WTF)!!!

among other books, 'the development of western music' goes into details on all of the above.

bach certainly commanded some respect for the better part of his life. after all, he came from a well known musical family. but, he was certainly not considered the mega force he is today - he was considered more of a cantor/teacher and organist than a composer. he didn't tour the world as handle did, making his music extremely well known and celebrated. and he did eventually suffer somewhat of a decline in the appreciation for his music. after he died, his works were divided up amongst his kids, much of them being sold off and completely falling off the radar for a very long time. it was not like today with dover scores.

and, as i mentioned, when in college, i had, among others, douglas johnson as a music history professor. he is one of the biggest scholars in the musicology/music history field today. he is one of the guys who sequenced the beethoven sketchbooks. this is his teaching, as well. and this guy has done himself, and knows the main people doing most of the primary sourcing in musicology. so, not sure where you're getting your scholarly info, but it flies in the face of the well established or you are misinterpreting it. you make daryl's original statement sound like when people thought the world was flat.


----------



## kutai

jaeroe @ Thu Jun 27 said:


> in his 40's, bach was the committee's 3rd choice for the post in Leipzig, behind Telmann and Graunper (WTF)!!!



Is there a chance that, Bach was actually the 4th in the commitee's shortlist after Telemann, Fasch and Graupner? It doesn't matter at all but for the sake of precision


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Actually, does it really matter anyway?

Bach's peers knew his worth and history has made its judgement.


----------



## jaeroe

there are enough books written on the subject that it would appear to be of interest to plenty of people. and if what dave is saying is the case, i'd be really interested to read about. i find historical perspective really interesting, and it goes a long way to explaining why certain composers made certain choices, etc - on a small and large scale. as corigliano has said 'style/personal voice comes down to the choices you make'. context has a lot to do with that - everyone is in part a product of his/her time.

beethoven - his peers and a good amount of the public knew his worth during his lifetime - he became a celebrity in his day. not all of bach's peers knew his worth during his lifetime.

(as a side note, not all of bach's positions were in churches, he had some appointments to houses, as well - leopold, etc)


----------



## Guy Rowland

Any chance of renaming this thread "Discussion about Bach"? I keep clicking on it and thinking I ended up in the wrong place.


----------



## germancomponist

Guy Rowland @ Thu Jun 27 said:


> Any chance of renaming this thread "Discussion about Bach"? I keep clicking on it and thinking I ended up in the wrong place.



Huh, I thought rename into Beethoven? Okay, my joke with the Deep Purple Beethoven was probably too bad... . :mrgreen:


----------



## jaeroe

just put "No longer an...." infront of the thread name and i think we'll be covered


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

That "mystic" scale is a Lydian b7 without its 5th.
A pretty common sound nowadays, no?


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

I realized that my only input in this thread wasn't acknowledging how great it was to have Hans participating in this conversation and sharing his great insights...

Many thanks for your presence and your generosity of spirit Hans!


----------



## G.R. Baumann

Patrick de Caumette @ Thu Jun 27 said:


> That "mystic" scale is a Lydian b7 without its 5th.
> A pretty common sound nowadays, no?



Hi Patrick,

perhaps the below link is of interest to you. The dissertation paper provides good insights into Scriabin's harmonic language. 

http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-04122013-154240/unrestricted/Dissertation.pdf



> VITA
> Jeff Yunek is Minnesota native who currently resides in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. He received his Bachelor of Arts in music education at Concordia College in Moorhead, Minnesota in 2006; his Master of Music in music theory from Florida State University in 2009; and his Doctor of Philosophy in music theory from Louisiana State University in 2013, with a minor in choral conducting. Yunek has presented a numerous regional conferences on twentieth-century music on composers from Gustav Mahler through Sven-David Sandström. In 2009, he won the Dorothy Payne Award for Best Student Paper from the Music Theory Society of the Mid- Atlantic. He currently serves as the president of the South Central Society for Music Theory and has served on the program committees for the Louisiana State University Music Colloquium in both 2011 and 2013. For the past three years, Yunek has taught music theory and aural skills at Louisiana State University and directs choirs and musical productions throughout the Baton Rouge area.


----------



## G.R. Baumann

Interesting as well...

Scriabin And The Impossible:

http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic719298.files/Mythical%20Russianness%20Part%20II/Morrison%20Scriabin.pdf

Scriabin And The Possible:

http://mtosmt.org/issues/mto.12.18.2/mto.12.18.2.gawboy_townsend.pdf


----------



## G.R. Baumann

....and here is the Prometheus Performance of the above mentioned "Scriabin And The Possible:"

I would think that Hans might like this very much as well. :D 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3B7uQ5K0IU



> n February 2010, Anna Gawboy, a doctoral candidate at the Yale School of Music and scholar of Russian composer Alexander Scriabin, attempted to realize the composer's final work: a symphony of sound and light called "Prometheus: Poem of Fire". To accomplish this, Anna worked closely with Toshiyuki Shimada, conductor of the Yale Symphony Orchestra, and Justin Townsend, an award-winning lighting designer.
> 
> Anna and Justin spent a year developing ideas and preparing for the performance, but a majority of the lighting work was done just days before the concert. This documentary covers the events of that week and the performance itself.


----------



## passenger57

Thanks goodness Scriabin was stopped. Had his Mysterium plan gone in to effect it woud have opened a portal to another dimension, then a black hole would have disintegrated the whole world. :!: :!: 

I should also mention that Scriabin thought that the entire universe existed only in his imagination. True story. I love that guy.


----------



## synergy543

Wow, this thread turned again (mysteriously?) and became really interesting! 

Too bad Hans left the room. It would be wonderful if he too were indulging in these wild Scriabin tonal explorations (I'm having great fun - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz0sL44Ll_0 (loving this one)) and it sure would be interesting to hear his thoughts on the musical height at the turn of the 20th century (particularly around 1910 - what a rich era!) and maybe even hear some influence in one of the next movies. 

You know....composers helping composers. 

Scriabin might be dead (for some time in fact), but that doesn't mean he can't still influence and inspire us!


----------



## Waywyn

passenger57 @ Fri Jun 28 said:


> I should also mention that Scriabin thought that the entire universe existed only in his imagination. True story. I love that guy.



Well, according to science it could be totally possible that the universe you live in is just "your" personal simulation, but that is going way to off now!  ... anyway, I love when people fool around with thoughts like this and express it in the musical way!


----------



## Waywyn

Sorry for the add, but why is everyone going like: Hans left the room?
I mean, only because one doesn't reply back within 3,1415927 seconds?


----------



## synergy543

Waywyn @ Thu Jun 27 said:


> Sorry for the add, but why is everyone going like: Hans left the room?
> I mean, only because one doesn't reply back within 3,1415927 seconds?


Waywn, things are speeding up now (you know like Inception?) so its actually become the square root instead. 1.77245385091 seconds. Any longer than that now and you're considered out for the moment. :D


----------



## jaeroe

Waywyn @ Fri Jun 28 said:


> Sorry for the add, but why is everyone going like: Hans left the room?
> I mean, only because one doesn't reply back within 3,1415927 seconds?



because we've taken this thing way off topic - nothing directed at hans. (but, i don't know that anyone else was saying that - just me)


----------



## kutai

I have a question about the mystic chord-scale... To me the mystic chord sounds too jazzy (C13b5 if I'm not mistaken) and as a scale it sounds like a wholetone scale with a twist, very Scriabin-ish. 

Is there anyone here who have successfully implemented this chord-scale into his/her compositions? or can you direct me to some examples, which doesn't sound like a reference/tribute to Scriabin?

I'm failing to understand the relevance of this scale outside of Scriabin's creative world...


----------



## impressions

kutai @ Fri Jun 28 said:


> I have a question about the mystic chord-scale... To me the mystic chord sounds too jazzy (C13b5 if I'm not mistaken) and as a scale it sounds like a wholetone scale with a twist, very Scriabin-ish.
> 
> Is there anyone here who have successfully implemented this chord-scale into his/her compositions? or can you direct me to some examples, which doesn't sound like a reference/tribute to Scriabin?
> 
> I'm failing to understand the relevance of this scale outside of Scriabin's creative world...


people from classical field call lydian b7 "the mystic scale"?? o/~ o=< but if you want, you can listen to most jazz tunes that uses strings, here is something very familiar which uses lots of jazz harmony...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW9WKIvF9y4&list=PL63244965F16D0890&index=3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW9WKIvF ... 90&amp;index=3)


----------



## dcoscina

Waywyn @ Thu Jun 27 said:


> Sorry for the add, but why is everyone going like: Hans left the room?
> I mean, only because one doesn't reply back within 3,1415927 seconds?



Would you stick around and endure people making comparisons of your work to Bach or deride you for not being a good pianist and conclude that your music would be better if you did? Oh wait, you sort of also got that treatment!

You masochistic bastard! Is there something about Germans that they enjoy suffering? 

[please note I am joking!]


----------



## Waywyn

dcoscina @ Fri Jun 28 said:


> Waywyn @ Thu Jun 27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for the add, but why is everyone going like: Hans left the room?
> I mean, only because one doesn't reply back within 3,1415927 seconds?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you stick around and endure people making comparisons of your work to Bach or deride you for not being a good pianist and conclude that your music would be better if you did? Oh wait, you sort of also got that treatment!
> 
> You masochistic bastard! Is there something about Germans that they enjoy suffering?
> 
> [please note I am joking!]
Click to expand...


:lol:


----------



## guitarman1960

Just have to say that it's a real shame that when someone posts a very interesting question to Hans, and he is kind and generous enough to take the time out of a very high pressure schedule to answer in a very informative and interesting way, that some members of this forum seem to think its just fine to make arrogant, insulting, and downright childish remarks and turn a great thread into a playground for their moronic slanging matches.
If I was a moderator here, there are a few members who would be getting a lifetime ban from this forum. 
We all know who they are, so lets just ignore their posts and not take the bait, and carry on a proper grown up conversation without them.

Hans, plenty of us on this forum really value your contributions, and we aren't all jealous know-alls who wouldn't know the meaning of the word 'respect' if it bit them on the ass!


----------



## jaeroe

hans has an AMA here

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1 ... _anything/

if memory serves, he mentioned heading into an especially busy patch about now.


----------



## kutai

impressions @ Fri Jun 28 said:


> people from classical field call lydian b7 "the mystic scale"?? o/~ o=< but if you want, you can listen to most jazz tunes that uses strings, here is something very familiar which uses lots of jazz harmony...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW9WKIvF9y4&list=PL63244965F16D0890&index=3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW9WKIvF ... 90&amp;index=3)



Hmm, so it is dominant lydian scale with a left out 5th. But I think the mystic vibe is due to the underlying whole tone scale structure, it is very apparent, of course it will sound eerie and otherworldly. Since the whole tone scale is much older than Scriabin, such an adaptation seems plausible to me. But I'm just contemplating without any factual basis...

As for listening to jazz, I'm aware that a dominant 13th chord will come up in jazz pieces, especially in the more "contemporary" examples, in many shapes and forms. But I wonder if there is any composer who implemented this scale/chord as a central element not as some voice leading device...

I should check my Bill Evans recordings. That's the guy to look at for this sort of harmonic explorations...


----------



## impressions

him or keith jarrett's opening solo before the trio kicks in.
http://grooveshark.com/s/Autumn+Leaves/1Nt44x?src=5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krz8bUAevlY


----------



## G.R. Baumann

kutai @ Fri Jun 28 said:


> I should check my Bill Evans recordings. That's the guy to look at for this sort of harmonic explorations...



Kutai,

Yes, and Miles Davis of course, check out "Kind of Blue". 

Bill Evans, Chick Corea, Duke Ellington and many many more. Oh, and of course, Herbie Hancock.

Quartal Harmonies were used by many classical Composers. Debussy, Webern, Schoenberg, Berg, Stravinsky, Legti.... long List

Alex, in case you're still reading here: 

http://live4guitar.com/article/voicing-and-re-voicing-quartal-harmony

Check that one.... ~o) :lol: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yPEewaalik&list=TLoMejWWGIzYs


----------



## RémyB

It's so generous Hans to share a part of your work with us!
I have a question too.
I think Quested is yet the monitoring speakers' brand you use in your studio with a 5.1 set up with VH2108 surrounding.

Could you tell me why they have been laid on their sides? what kind of advantage of such a setup?

Looking forward to reading to you...


----------



## Rctec

À RémyB...because in a very unscientific approach, I have the speakers too close. I treat them like big headphones , but I really want to be aware of all the detailing the track. That's my writing setup. When we mix, they are at their proper distance. I turn them on their sides to widen the stereo filed of the top end - the tweeters are facing out wards....
If you can avoid doing that, avoid it. I'm just used to it.
If you want to hear what it sounds like, get the free Z+Man Of Steel App from the App Store. There is a demo mode that's a measurement of my room done with my ears...
Best
-H-


----------



## RémyB

To Rctec... "à RémyB"... you guessed I was French :D ... sorry for my English!
Thanks a lot for this precision about your setup.
I'm on the point to purchase Quested 2108 active speakers.
According to your studio's pics, you own Quested 2108 passive ones, with a powerful amp surrounding...
Is it because of the big size of your room, or is it to have more control in the bass or anything else?
Best


----------



## Steve Steele

kutai @ Fri Jun 28 said:


> I have a question about the mystic chord-scale... To me the mystic chord sounds too jazzy...



Not in Scriabin's time and place. That was just the state of evolving chromaticism at that time (that place, and that person).


----------



## kutai

nightwatch @ Mon Jul 08 said:


> kutai @ Fri Jun 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a question about the mystic chord-scale... *To me * the mystic chord sounds too jazzy...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not in Scriabin's time and place. That was just the state of evolving chromaticism at that time (that place, and that person).
Click to expand...


Well, obviously.


----------

