# Trying to understand Spitfire Audio's new Library Manager download philosophy



## nutotech (Apr 10, 2014)

If you Snow Leopard guys are thinking of buying Kitchenware Glass, be advised that you won't be able to download. Requires 10.7 or higher. Perhaps all their products will now require this? Christian suggested I just "dl to another computer and transfer the files." 

If they were scripting for K5.3 and above, this might make sense. But this library is backward compatible with Kontakt 4.2!! For a myriad of reasons I don't want to upgrade to Lion. So I have to schedule time with my intern to dl to his MBP?!? Arg! PITA!

Really not happy about their decision. How 'bout you other 10.6.8 guys?


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## Synesthesia (Apr 11, 2014)

Hi Nuto,

We've developed a new download/shop system for several reasons, which will become apparent as we bed it in and more 'elements' of it are released over the next few weeks.

OS X 10.7 was released in the app store on July 20th 2011 - there are actually very few of our customers still on 10.6, but for obvious reasons we have to draw the line somewhere in terms of backward compatibility as each alternate OS added needs to be coded for and supported.

While we had many happy years with Continuata and were very happy with their service, it was a natural evolution to want our own coded solution that could be expanded to include customer accounts and make life easier for us in regard to updates and support, in addition to the back end systems.

This is a soft release - again we are trying to bed the new system in with minimum disruption to existing clients and this has been over a year in the planning.

Most of the few people who are still on 10.6 for their DAWs that I have spoken with over the last week have no problem with downloading to their laptop and copying over - or have another machine in the studio with a newer mac OS or Windows.

The benefits of the new system will become more apparent as we switch more sections of it on slowly as we are confident that everything is working smoothly.

We also have updates for pretty much every product in the pipeline, which will be going out over the next week or so (again, staging this to expose any issues slowly!)

I hope that clarifies the situation, hopefully people will understand this for what it is, a large investment in infrastructure that ultimately benefits our customers!

Thanks,

Paul


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## Stiltzkin (Apr 11, 2014)

I smell sable update :D


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## nutotech (Apr 11, 2014)

I can't tell you the number of times I have shouted the praises of Spitfire, Paul. Every time Albion was updated it was like Christmas morning!  And your smaller libraries are true gems--use 'em all the time. Your Solo Strings library is/was on my wish list for 2014.

Hope you understand that we look at you vendors as "partners" of sorts. We understand the huge investment you make in your incredible products. We know you have to pay NI for a slot (as it were) for your libraries to be on the hallowed left side of the Kontakt player, and that releasing updates are free for us but cost you guys to produce.

Yes, I will eventually have a second computer with OS 10.7. Looking at adding a Mini to my rig sometime this year in fact. My problem is this: I feel products delivered via the web should be "OS neutral" as it were. Not saying I'd expect current dl technology to support Windows 95 or OS 9. Also appreciate your desire to have an in-house encoding/delivery system. Guess my decision is whether to hassle with this situation or simply cancel my order. Appreciate your posting a response.


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## Astronaut FX (Apr 11, 2014)

nutotech @ Fri Apr 11 said:


> My problem is this: I feel products delivered via the web should be "OS neutral" as it were. Not saying I'd expect current dl technology to support Windows 95 or OS 9.



But that's just it, and you said it yourself. Where do you draw that line between being "OS neutral" and how backward compatible you are? I manage software testers for a living, and I can tell you first hand just how challenging and exponentially difficult it can be to support multiple platforms, especially when you factor in all of the other variables from one user's computer to the next.

If you think about all of the computer brands, operating systems/versions, browsers/versions, additional hardware and software installed...those variables multiply against one another to make it literally impossible to test and support all combinations of variables.

Developers (of any kind of software) have to make decisions about where to draw the line with regard to how backward compatible their products (and in this case, installers) are and still be able to provide adequate support. It's a balancing act. Too far backward compatible and your support takes forever. Not enough backward compatibility, and, well, your post.

I know this won't make you feel any better, and I'm not trying to poke the bear, just trying to put it into perspective.


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## Edward_Martin (Apr 11, 2014)

In all fairness though, I think they should have at least given people a notice, perhaps along the lines: 

We have a new download system coming, you should have the following specs, etc. to insure everything runs smoothly before you make a purchase.

This way people who buy this new library aren't inconvenienced in the least bit. Personally, I live in the boondocks, and had I bought this I would have been outraged because not all of us have interns at our behest. The whole thing about downloading a product on someone else' mac/pc as a workaround is a HUGE security risk, even if you'd trust them with your life.

I have seen unfair criticism of Spitfire here in the past, and always thought to myself "this is crazy", because they always seem to be on-top of things, like updates, fixes, etc. If ever there was a fair criticism, it would be now. Definitely dropped the ball by not giving people the heads up at least. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am on their mailing list and nothing jumped out at me. If it was mentioned, it must have been in the fine print, and this seems like news worthy of a topic here by the Devs and a newsletter dedicated solely on this issue.


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## Adrian Myers (Apr 11, 2014)

Just to comment on Edward's mention of a security risk, running an old OS is easily the larger security risk (MSDOS jokes aside).

As a developer, I agree with Tone Deaf. Development costs of legacy platform support are very high and contribute nearly nothing to the final product. If they expanded the audience of that product significantly enough to fund additional feature development, assuming there is enough time left in the day for such things, that's one thing. But Spitfire clearly don't have time left in the day and apparently they don't see the expansion in customer base to support the decision.

Every time people say they wish developer XYZ would "focus on the important bugs" or "just build the product", this is what that means in practice.


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## Synesthesia (Apr 11, 2014)

Its going to be a nice coupla weeks for Spitfire customers.

Give us time to ensure it goes smoothly for you.

http://blake.so/spitfire_updates/


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## NYC Composer (Apr 11, 2014)

Not criticizing Spitfire for their considered business decisions, but I'm one of the Luddites who won't be updating from Snow Leopard until they pry it from my cold dead hands, and the inability to buy one developer's products won't achieve that.


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## chadseiter (Apr 11, 2014)

THANK GOODNESS!!! I had nothing but trouble with Connect and it was always such a torment when I got one of your products. I'm relieved, looking forward to the new downloader very much.


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## mac4d (Apr 11, 2014)

Two months ago I bought Mural vol 1. It works fine with 10.6.8 and K4.2.4 which was a huge consideration when buying it (besides my preference for Mural's sound). Two months ago it did not come with all the mics. When the missing mics are released, I sure hope I can get them.

As far as future products go: sure restrict them to downloading with 10.7 and above. I've no idea how downloading can be an OS issue (put a .rar on a server, create a html link?). Really, I don't get it. But that's OK, I just won't be buying the new stuff for the time being then. 

Only what about updates when they come for the products I do have: Mural and Flutes? (also have some donation-libs but I doubt those will be updated). 

Yep, 10.7 came out in July 2011 and it was reported to be slow and full of problems, especially for music producers. Did it ever get as fast and stable as 10.6.8? Not from what I read as I kept reading up on it. The only time I'll be upgrading OS is when I get a new mac, years from now, and when OS 10.10 is reported to be working great!


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## Mr. Anxiety (Apr 11, 2014)

I will have issues as well; I do not own a Mac with 10.7 on it at the moment. I download my Spitfire purchases on my iMac, 10.6.8.

I own all of their libraries save 1 or 2 small ones.

Just an FYI

Mr A.


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## Edward_Martin (Apr 12, 2014)

Certainly, an old OS does pose a security risk, not the kind I am referring to, but I hardly think Snow Leopard falls into that category regardless. Also, I don't even have Snow Leopard, so more than likely I wouldn't be affected by this, however I sympathize with the OP who did in fact buy this thing and *surprise* couldn't get his purchase. Heads up would've been nice...all I am saying.

I think it would have been far more responsible and transparent on their end if, before they took your money, they first let you test this new system with some sort of dummy file that you can download and see if your system is compatible in the first place, not just past setups but future as well. You don't just spring something like this on to people and say, patience...at least not after you take their money. I mean, it might sound harsh, and I am sure there was no ill will intended and that Spitfire knows what its doing and feels in the end this will be in their best interest, but I think in the process they may have unwittingly overlooked their customers interests a bit as well. Already there a few that mentioned they will be shut out from future releases because of this, and others that said they are glad to see the change because the old system was a pain, the difference here being the guys who were having a bad time with the old system knew before hand what they were getting into where-as the new guys would have had a bit of a shocker had the OP not mentioned this here...Seriously, I can't remember this being mentioned anywhere, did I miss it?


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## Synesthesia (Apr 12, 2014)

Wow.

Really guys? I announce that we are releasing 25 updates, a new customer account system, streamlined and easier downloading, and this is the reaction?


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## snattack (Apr 12, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> Wow.
> 
> Really guys? I announce that we are releasing 25 updates, a new customer account system, streamlined and easier downloading, and this is the reaction?



Some people won't ever be satisfied. If (a very few) people want to run a 5 year old dusty OS, just let them and ignore their whining. I can't believe people would ever complain about this, or worse: use it as an argument against buying Spitfire products.

Grow up, buy or borrow a second computer, problem solved.


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## Stephen Rees (Apr 12, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> Wow.
> 
> Really guys? I announce that we are releasing 25 updates, a new customer account system, streamlined and easier downloading, and this is the reaction?



I was hoping for 30 updates, a free trumpets library and a pony *disappointment*


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## Synesthesia (Apr 12, 2014)




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## Stephen Rees (Apr 12, 2014)

Awwwwwwwwwwww. All is forgiven


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 12, 2014)

Well I'm super-excited about any and all updates - especially Sable. And utterly delighted to have to use Connect less, which has always been erratic on my ISP, so I'll be spending much of the day putting bunting up around the studio (all are welcome to join me). But Paul, you can see why some existing customers might be peeved if they can't actually download these super-exciting updates, even though the product itself is supported? For many it might not be a simple matter to download it onto another machine. Perhaps a stopgap manual links solution can be found for those who are affected? At least, a newsletter now warning folks to sort out a local solution ahead of the deluge might be helpful in managing the support tickets.

Actually this raises a broader issue for us Windows users. I'm worried about a little timebomb with Windows 7. Only last month I bought a new system and like many others by choice picked Win7 64 bit (win 8 for business use doesn't look to be a serious proposition, and looks like many in our field feel the same way). Does that mean when Windows 9 comes out - maybe even this year? - we'll be facing these dilemmas sooner than we'd think? It'll be interesting if so - according this source - http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating ... pcustomd=0 - Win 7 has 48% of the total OS market, 10 times the figure for Win 8 even after 18 months of being in active service. Of course the abandoned XP still has 26%, and few developers are supporting that, so Win 7 could quite easily go the same way.

But I do feel for Mac users here. Apple seems to want to release a new version every fortnight to raptures from the faithful, while Windows versions are thankfully far more sporadic. Win 7 was released in 2009 - two years earlier than 10.7 which after all is only under 3 years old, a positive toddler of an OS. And I absolutely do feel for developers as a result - each year that passes brings more complexities in handling this stuff.

Anyway, I hope everyone figures out a solution here - clearly this is going to be an exciting month for Spitfire, would be great if all the customers are able to be a part of it.


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## doctornine (Apr 12, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> Wow.
> 
> Really guys? I announce that we are releasing 25 updates, a new customer account system, streamlined and easier downloading, and this is the reaction?



Retail…. who'd do it ?

I mean seriously folks, come on. The attitude on this forum never ceases to amaze me.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 12, 2014)

snattack @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> Synesthesia @ Sat Apr 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Wow.
> ...



1. Speaking for myself, I didn't whine- I stated a personal viewpoint in a respectful way, unlike yourself.

2. At well over 100 years old, I am about as grown up as I'll ever be- again, apparently unlike yourself. Do try and dial the rhetoric down a bit, please. Thank you.


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## Adrian Myers (Apr 12, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> Really guys? I announce that we are releasing 25 updates, a new customer account system, streamlined and easier downloading, and this is the reaction?



Well to be fair, somebody apparently started a thread strictly to criticize the new download manager, and half of the posters think this isn't a reasonable criticism. So actually it's looking pretty good!

The success of the updates and products will no doubt speak for themselves. I actually laughed when I saw that graph on Blake's site... that's quite a ramp you have there.


P.S. If anybody is really, legitimately stuck for downloads, remember that you can boot from a USB device with a recent OS, or create a partition on an internal storage drive.

P.P.S. Pretty, pretty pony.


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## Stiltzkin (Apr 12, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> Wow.
> 
> Really guys? I announce that we are releasing 25 updates, a new customer account system, streamlined and easier downloading, and this is the reaction?



I doubt it's much comfort, but I deal with this kind of reaction to big updates every day and the stance my company has on it is that the reaction people have, however negative or positive, is reflective of how much they care about the products - negative feedback or frustration is generally sign of people caring a lot about an issue.

In a nice way, at least you know from this feedback that people do want your products 

Happily, I'm always on the latest update and use win8 anyway so I'll be fine :D Can't wait for the updates guys - the patch notes for the flutes looks great! Can't wait for that along with sable and the rest! <3


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## TimJohnson (Apr 12, 2014)

I have the latest Mac OS and at least one library from _almost_ all of the big developers out there. I have no issues whatsoever. Stop being a wimp and upgrade your OS, or just accept that eventually you will not be able to update certain programmes/libraries.

Keep up the good work Spitfire. I will be sending you an email with the days when I will be poor (Car MOT/Service, Birthdays etc.). Please do not release anything around those times!

Best wishes,

Tim


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## NYC Composer (Apr 12, 2014)

Adrian Myers @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> Synesthesia @ Sat Apr 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Really guys? I announce that we are releasing 25 updates, a new customer account system, streamlined and easier downloading, and this is the reaction?
> ...



The OP started the thread because he bought something he couldn't download after buying other products from SF that he WAS able to download, and he expressed some dismay. He also thought it prudent to inform other Snow Leopard users who might have been surprised that they'd bought something they also couldn't download.

I may be mistaken, but many older Macs like mine are limited to USB 2, and we can't boot off that. Also, you can't partition a drive that you have data on, or such is my understanding.

My system on 10.68 works as close to flawlessly as anything I've ever owned or set up. I get a LOT of music written. I have great admiration for Spitfire and can understand how they might have decided to move on, but I find the suggestion that because one wants to hold onto a perfectly working system he's somehow flawed, to be risible. Spitfire in turn will surely thrive without those 'very few' customers who do not wish to upgrade their system at this point in time.


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## Stephen Rees (Apr 12, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> Also, you can't partition a drive that you have data on, or such is my understanding.



I think you can do that Larry. I'm pretty sure I've done it a few times. OSX Disk Utility is really good.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 12, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Apr 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Also, you can't partition a drive that you have data on, or such is my understanding.
> ...



After the fact? Not my understanding, but as I said, I may be mistaken.


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## Synesthesia (Apr 12, 2014)

"Create new partitions on a disk

You may be able to create new partitions on a disk without losing any of the files on the disk. Each partition works like a separate disk. You may need to create a new partition if you want to install multiple operating systems on your computer. You can also create partitions to help organize your files.

As a precaution, back up your data before creating new partitions on your disk

Open Disk Utility, in the Utilities folder in Launchpad.
Select the disk where you want to create a new partition and click Partition.
Select an existing partition in the Volume Scheme list, and click Add (+).
Disk Utility splits the partition into two, leaving the data from that partition in one of the new partitions. If the partition is less than half-full, Disk Utility creates two partitions of equal size. Otherwise, it creates one partition large enough for the data, and another partition with the remaining space.

Resize the partitions as needed.
You can drag the dividers between the partitions in the Volume Scheme list, or you can select a partition in the Volume Scheme list, and then enter a value in the Size field.

Choose how to format the partitions that will be erased or created.
For each new partition, select it, enter a name, and then choose a format.

Click Apply."


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## Stephen Rees (Apr 12, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> Stephen Rees @ Sat Apr 12 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Sat Apr 12 said:
> ...



Yes absolutely. I have often added partitions after the fact. When I updated to Mountain Lion recently I cloned my Snow Leopard drive onto a newly created partition on a drive that already had data on it. As long a there is room for everything it shouldn't be a problem (I think!).

You can easily test it by using Disk Utility to set up a Partition Layout (you don't actually have to press 'Apply' to make it happen if you don't want to - but you can try a theoretical layout just to see if it is possible).

EDIT: Just tested it myself. It is definitely possible to add new partitions to drives that already have data on them.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 12, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> "Create new partitions on a disk
> 
> You may be able to create new partitions on a disk without losing any of the files on the disk. Each partition works like a separate disk. You may need to create a new partition if you want to install multiple operating systems on your computer. You can also create partitions to help organize your files.
> 
> ...



Yes, that was my understanding as well. Every read under Mac help includes the cautionary "you may be able to". Some read "you may be able to create a new partition without losing files or folders." Ummm.  

Still, maybe this could be a possibility for Nuto if he has a non-essential internal disk.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 12, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Apr 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Stephen Rees @ Sat Apr 12 said:
> ...



Cool. I love learning new things. Thanks for the effort.


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## Edward_Martin (Apr 12, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> Wow.
> 
> Really guys? I announce that we are releasing 25 updates, a new customer account system, streamlined and easier downloading, and this is the reaction?



Way too dodge and twist the conversation! If you read what I wrote carefully you will realize that the ONE criticism I pointed out was the lack of notice. Just one, that's it. Which call me crazy, but I think its a damn fair critique, because I feel like we wouldn't have otherwise known about this if it wasn't for the OP pointing it out, and not to say how awesome it is, but to warn others before buying this new library that they may not be able to download it.

The fact that you have 25 odd updates in the pipeline is all well and good and a testament to Spitfire's commitment, bravo, but that is NOT what I was criticizing at all, or even what this thread is about...which is the downloading system that seemingly came from no where. Spare us the victim bit with that dramatic reply, no one is attacking you personally or overlooking the hard work you guys do...your only encouraging the fanatics to pick up their pitch forks in your defense and it completely deviates from the topic at hand, which may or may not be your goal with a statement like that. I like Spitfire, but I see right through the BS.

Now, on to the ridiculous snattack. Unlike you, I am not an entitled elitist fanatic, I don't think anyone should have to buy a new computer or move to a newer OS or add a feakin' partition just to use a downloader...not unless the library itself requires the new OS, in which case...choices. I bet you wouldn't be so eager to sing Spitfire their praises if you couldn't afford a new computer at the drop of a hat, but since you apparently can, its easy for you to look down on the rest. You don't stop there though, you then go on to say the Devs should ignore them like lepers, whats wrong with you? If anyone needs to grow up, its you.

This could turn into a big PR mess for you guys if you keep encouraging clowns like these, just saying.


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## Stiltzkin (Apr 12, 2014)

Edward_Martin @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> Synesthesia @ Sat Apr 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Wow.
> ...



Tbh, almost every other business would say that if you are having a problem with software or hardware to update your operating system, drivers, hardware or whatever - if you don't meet the requirements then you don't meet them.

The requirements are listed on the spitfire page - quoted directly here:

SPECIFICATIONS

MAC:
Mac OS X 10.7 or 10.8 (latest update), Intel Core 2 Duo, 2 GB RAM (4 GB recommended)
PC:
Windows 7 (latest Service Pack, 32/64 Bit), Intel Core Duo or AMD Athlon 64 X2, 2 GB RAM (4 GB recommended)
FOOTPRINT:
4.1 GB in download product from 10.7 GB of WAV data from 12082 samples.

So really I don't see why there's a fuss... It's listed :/


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## jamwerks (Apr 12, 2014)

I had no problems with Continuata (and I've bought lots of toys lately), but happy to see SF getting their own system. And very happy to hear that their system is going to be put to the test in the coming weeks!! :mrgreen:


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## NYC Composer (Apr 12, 2014)

I hate to find myself in the middle of one of these things. I've been trying to avoid them. However, when I read stuff like "quit whining" and "stop being a wimp", etc, i wonder when this grown-up forum turned into a YouTube comment thread.


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## Edward_Martin (Apr 12, 2014)

Stiltzkin @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> Tbh, almost every other business would say that if you are having a problem with software or hardware to update your operating system, drivers, hardware or whatever - if you don't meet the requirements then you don't meet them.



Stiltzkin, I get that, but your missing the point. Although I don't agree with you that the downloader should dictate the specs when the library does not itself, that is not what I am pointing out. The "fuss" here is with the lack of notice Spitfire gave its costumers. The OP paid for this product and then found out he couldn't get his purchase, at least not directly. That is wrong on so many levels because they TOOK his money! What if he didn't have an alternative, would they give him a refund? Put yourself in his shoes for a moment, and you might realize that no amount of updates and shiny new things is going to distract you if your looking at this from his perspective.

I think there was a right way to roll this thing out, and they dropped the ball big time. The scramble now to deviate the topic is amateur damage control in my opinion.


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## Stiltzkin (Apr 12, 2014)

Edward_Martin @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> The "fuss" here is with the lack of notice Spitfire gave its costumers. The OP paid for this product and then found out he couldn't get his purchase, at least not directly. That is wrong on so many levels because they TOOK his money! What if he didn't have an alternative, would they give him a refund? Put yourself in his shoes for a moment, and you might realize that no amount of updates and shiny new things is going to distract you if your looking at this from his perspective.
> 
> I think there was a right way to roll this thing out, and they dropped the ball big time. The scramble now to deviate the topic is amateur damage control in my opinion.



This is no different than any other purchasing situation when software is involved - the specs on the website do take in to account their new system, if there are problems with the actual program then that is another issue (and would be no different than having problems with connect or whatever - hell this would be like having an issue with winrar, except in this case if someone has a problem spitfire can deal with it DIRECTLY).

The benefit of spitfire having the download process in their own hands in terms of development is that if something goes wrong, it is just their responsibility and they can give accurate information on how to fix it, any ETAs and deal with everything instantly without having to rely on a third party developer.

The lack of communication is kind of redundant as it was communicated in the email that arrives - and that is just the same as it was before, it doesn't say on the website that connect is required, only the requirements needed for the purchase.

I'm really sorry that I can't be more empathetic, but I can't see how this is different to buying something at a store without having the minimum requirements - the same thing has happened, the requirements are stated on the website or box, you paid, the money has been taken by the store. Any problems thereafter are solved by customer support and the first thing that will be asked is 'what are your system specs and do you meet the system requirements'.


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## Edward_Martin (Apr 12, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> I hate to find myself in the middle of one of these things. I've been trying to avoid them. However, when I read stuff like "quit whining" and "stop being a wimp", etc, i wonder when this grown-up forum turned into a YouTube comment thread.



I agree with you wholeheartedly. I will never understand the idolatry people have these days with companies, be it apple or in composing circles Spitfire. I get that people like Spitfire, we ALL do. And I for one appreciate all the free updates, and fixes that they come out with routinely. However, when a mistake is made, it needs to be addressed, because these guys are professionals. The way that Synesthesia responded to my post, as if I was some ingrate that didn't take the updates and other stuff they were working on into account invites this sort of riffraff. I was focusing on the threads topic, if this was a separate thread about the updates themselves, then certainly wouldn't be bringing up the downloader issue, because its irrelevant to what is being discussed. If instead of a new downloader, the change was more drastic, perhaps iLok, and they failed to let us know before hand, can you imagine the outrage? But since this only effects a minority who cares right? That rubs me the wrong way.


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## Edward_Martin (Apr 12, 2014)

Stiltzkin @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> This is no different than any other purchasing situation when software is involved



Come on Stiltzkin, lets be reasonable. Its a safe assumption that people have gotten accustomed to Spitfires old downloading system for some time now, as its been the same since the beginning. So if your a regular customer, and your not super aware, you may not notice this and buy it only to figure out later you cant download it...This goes to the heart of the topic, because this is essentially what happened to the OP.

When I go to a store to buy a software package I of coarse look at the specs, as I am sure most people do...this is not the same situation. And even you can agree that this should have merited a newsletter dedicated to this new development exclusively, and even an official thread here before, not after the fact.


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## Synesthesia (Apr 12, 2014)

Hi Edward,

As (I think?) you aren't currently a customer of ours, if that is indeed your real name, I can't really understand the depth of your outrage..

As it happens, not one of the customers affected (who can be counted on one hand so far) have asked for a refund. 

in fact, I have given one some detailed advice helping him to pick the best system to update to (10.8.5 in this case)

So I guess its one of those cases where the reality differs from the 'internets'.

Best

Paul


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## Resoded (Apr 12, 2014)

NYC Composer @ 12th April 2014 said:


> I hate to find myself in the middle of one of these things. I've been trying to avoid them. However, when I read stuff like "quit whining" and "stop being a wimp", etc, i wonder when this grown-up forum turned into a YouTube comment thread.



I agree.

To go back on topic, I had issues with the Continuata downloader and I'm looking forward to trying the new one. And concerning the updates, even though I do appreciate the pony, the updates are even better.


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## Edward_Martin (Apr 12, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> Hi Edward,
> 
> As (I think?) you aren't currently a customer of ours, if that is indeed your real name, I can't really understand the depth of your outrage..



So let me get this straight? I am not a customer so therefor I have not purchased the right to say my piece here?

As a matter of fact I am a costumer of yours, albeit you wouldn't know it because indeed my email and my real name are not the same. Really? You actually searched through your records to see if I was even a customer? Come on man that's childish. Even if I wasn't, so what? I criticize corporations for their practices all the time, my critique of your downloader blunder was tiny and hardly an outrage by comparison. What really riled me up was your response, if you can call it that. You completely sidestepped the issue and proceeded to make me and the others in the minority seem ungrateful. I didn't even know about these updates when the OP posted this thread, and if I did, it wouldn't have made a shred of a difference, not because we are ungrateful as you would have it seem, but because its not what the thread is about.

You have to understand, you have a devoted cult following. They will tear people apart here at your request, just play the victim card and watch them flame me to no end for saying just ONE cross thing about the almighty Spitfire. You just lost my business, not because of the downloader thing mind you, that could have been handled easily if you had some sense, but because you had the audacity to check to see if my opinion mattered or not.


----------



## Guy Rowland (Apr 12, 2014)

Well good lord. This is all getting fairly perplexing.

We've had some good advice here about one possible solution, though clearly its quite an involved process -wouldn't it make sense for this to be widely known ahead of release? And of course only a few people are affected so far, because only people reading this thread know it exists. With the greatest of respect, I'm not sure what value is served by - once again, I have to say - making insinuations about the whether or not customers here are legitimate, it seems terribly counter-productive to me. Instead, what, I wonder, is the problem with sending something like this...



> GET READY FOR YOUR SPITFIRE UPDATES!
> 
> Dear Spitfire Customer
> 
> ...



Call me mad, but isn't that a more constructive way forward here?


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## Synesthesia (Apr 12, 2014)

:roll: 

Simply this, my last word on it.

I know who the customers are who have contacted me to ask about the 10.6 issue.


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## Stephen Rees (Apr 12, 2014)

Don't think I didn't notice that was a unicorn and not a pony either *tut*


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 12, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> :roll:
> 
> Simply this, my last word on it.
> 
> I know who the customers are who have contacted me to ask about the 10.6 issue.



I appreciate it's your last word but to say again...

The only people who know yet are in this thread. And not all of those affected may have contacted you directly yet. Perhaps that's something else to put in an email - "if you are affected, do contact us". I cannot for the life of me see what is disagreeable about letting folks know so they can get prepared.

Oh well, I thought my suggestions were at least borderline constructive and worth more than a tired roll of the eyes, but there we go. Back under my rock.


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## Astronaut FX (Apr 12, 2014)

Guy's suggested advanced communication would have been a good idea and could have avoided some of the concerns expressed here. Another piece of evidence that those who have the technical and artistic prowess to develop outstanding sample libraries don't necessarily also have the best public relations strategy in all cases. Spitfire isn't alone in that observation. Can't be good at everything. 

On the other hand, let's wait to crucify them until we've actually had some instances of existing customers being left hanging.

Can we all go back to being friends again?



Guy - for what it's worth, while you don't like being in the middle of these things, you always seem to add value and have a good sense of diplomacy and fairness. Kudos to you for that!


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## Blake Ewing (Apr 12, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Fri Apr 11 said:


> Its going to be a nice coupla weeks for Spitfire customers.
> 
> Give us time to ensure it goes smoothly for you.
> 
> http://blake.so/spitfire_updates/



Am I overlooking it, or are there no April 2014 updates for Sable scheduled??


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## DocMidi657 (Apr 12, 2014)

Yes, I was a little baffled by the listing and not sure if I am understanding what I am reading from the list as well, maybe Paul or Christian could clarify a bit for us? 

Was really hoping Sable would be adding the control over the Attacks like in Blake's Blog here http://blake.so/blog/?7 on "playing the strings in Spitfire". 

There he refers to Sable as coming soon and it's listed as version 1.2

Dave


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## TimJohnson (Apr 12, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> I hate to find myself in the middle of one of these things. I've been trying to avoid them. However, when I read stuff like "quit whining" and "stop being a wimp", etc, i wonder when this grown-up forum turned into a YouTube comment thread.



You are right. It was meant in a jovial way, but perhaps does not look so when written down.


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## Edward_Martin (Apr 12, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> :roll:
> 
> Simply this, my last word on it.
> 
> I know who the customers are who have contacted me to ask about the 10.6 issue.



Your right, I am not one of the ones affected by this issue, but I couldn't tell you if I would have been because I haven't bought this particular library. Had it been for something more major like Hans Zimmer percussion, I am sure you would have had more folks with problems, at least more than you could count in one hand...its just statistics. Guy's suggestions are reasonable and far better than what I suggested of having a dummy file that people can test, which I agree would have been more involved. Ultimately, my reasons for being so vocal about it is a matter of principle, I put myself in the OP's shoes and realized that unlike him, I wouldn't have had an alternate means of downloading something I already paid good money for, hence a little heads up would have been welcome. I get that no one has asked for a refund, I think the few that have bought this library early and have had issues were able to find and alternative, if only because its a relatively small download. But imagine if it was a major release with a 50+ GB download that then would have to be downloaded on someone elses rig. If this had been handled accordingly, this thread shouldn't even exist is what I am saying.


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## Blake Ewing (Apr 12, 2014)

Blake Ewing @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> Synesthesia @ Fri Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Its going to be a nice coupla weeks for Spitfire customers.
> ...



Sable 1.2 is on there now! Woohoo. Looking forward to this one.

I'm very excited to try this on Sable and the Albions: "ADDED: Ability to select and layer multiple instruments at once by holding SHIFT when clicking the instrument icon."


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## NYC Composer (Apr 12, 2014)

TimJohnson @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Apr 12 said:
> 
> 
> > I hate to find myself in the middle of one of these things. I've been trying to avoid them. However, when I read stuff like "quit whining" and "stop being a wimp", etc, i wonder when this grown-up forum turned into a YouTube comment thread.
> ...



I appreciate your acknowledgment of that possibility. Cheers.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 12, 2014)

Tone Deaf @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> On the other hand, let's wait to crucify them until we've actually had some instances of existing customers being left hanging.



Please show me the post where Spitfire was "crucified."

Hyperbolic and inaccurate language is not helpful.


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## Astronaut FX (Apr 12, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> Tone Deaf @ Sat Apr 12 said:
> 
> 
> > On the other hand, let's wait to crucify them until we've actually had some instances of existing customers being left hanging.
> ...



Didn't say they had been. I said let's not. Very accurate and in line with my intent.


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## devastat (Apr 12, 2014)

Really excited to read about the various updates on Spitfire products released on April. Does this mean that we will finally get the Sable 3b update as well? o/~


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## scientist (Apr 12, 2014)

i sympathize with the 10.6.8 users as up until a couple months ago i was in the same situation. i was running 10.6.8 but needed 10.7 (or later) to run test builds of a game i was making music for.

my simple solution was to have a more recent OS installed on my secondary sample/project drive that i could boot into. no partition necessary, and the only harm it does is to take up a bit of disk space. 10.9 is a free download, even.


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## paaltio (Apr 13, 2014)

I think this underlines a bit how staying on an old version is not a good strategy. If you want to be cautious, stay one major version back so you can always have a point release that's been iterated upon.

Though for example 10.7 was, to paraphrase the former OS X product manager Ryan Nielsen from his interview in the Debug podcast, "an absolute clusterfuck of a release". So maybe there are exceptions to that strategy! But certainly staying multiple versions back will just make the eventual upgrade more painful, offers no increase in stability, and leaves you out of potentially time-saving new features.

If I started a new application now, I certainly would want to utilize some newer APIs, not to mention the latest version of Visual Studio / Xcode. Spitfire did absolutely the right thing. And by the way, awesome updates, congrats guys.


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## Edward_Martin (Apr 13, 2014)

paaltio @ Sun Apr 13 said:


> If I started a new application now, I certainly would want to utilize some newer APIs, not to mention the latest version of Visual Studio / Xcode. Spitfire did absolutely the right thing. And by the way, awesome updates, congrats guys.



From a purely technical perspective I couldn't say if Spitfire did or did not do the "right thing" in developing this downloader with these newer features at the expense of a small minority. If I was more technically savvy I might even agree with the decision as it may make more business sense if in the end they feel they could attract more customers or cater to a far vast majority much more easily using this new supposedly streamlined system. That being said, I am not knocking Spitfire for that at all, its the covert way it was rolled out. If it was such a great system, I would have expected to hear about it from the Devs. Seeing how in the past they have routinely teased us, sometimes years in advance, about upcoming libraries coming our way...if this system was really such a great new development then why didn't we hear about it until now? Even if you say it makes sense to keep something like this close to the chest for other reasons, say to make the transition away from continuata less awkward, it still baffles me why we had to come to learn about it from a VI member who could not directly access his purchase.


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## Click Sky Fade (Apr 13, 2014)

My forthcoming release will only support OSXIII and Windows X and only then if you tilt screen to PI / 2 and sing a certain lullaby whose melody will be emailed to you. Do not say you were not forewarned.

April release... Soon then.

I know this is a thread regarding Spitfires download philosophy but did anyone notice this?

SPITFIRE HZ PERCUSSION 01
• Main mic 1.12 (14 January 2014)
• Stereo mix 1.12 (14 January 2014)
• Alt mics 1.12 (14 January 2014)

I have main mics, artists elements and stereo. Could anybody clear up my confusion. Have Spitfire just changed naming conventions or am I missing something.

Thanks

Dave


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## snattack (Apr 13, 2014)

OK: Running 10.6 (which is 5 years old now) is a choice, if you're not running a Apple machine to old for i.e. 10.7 to work. I respect that if people have setups that's currently working they'd rather not change stuff.

BUT, what I don't respect is the assumption that a developer is obligated put time and money into supporting old platforms which just a handful of people are using. If a user is in a situation where they're still using old stuff, then the problems that might occur in purcase of new software (that most people are migrating to) will be up the user itself to solve, EVEN if it's only the downloader.

And there are TONS of ways to solve this without breaking the bank: borrow a friends/collegaues computer or create a windows-live USB-stick, install 10.7 on an external drive and temprarily boot into it, bootcamp. Yes, it's much more complicated and time consuming than if it would work on your system, but as stated: if you choose to run an old system, you are responsible for the problems that bring IMO.

If the situation would have been: "we only support Maverick now", then I'd much more accept that people would be upset, because there's yet a large part of the community left to migrate into 10.9 (including myself who's still on 10.8 ).

And also: I know several post-production houses, studios, composers, etc that uses 10.7 and it works fine.

Failing to see the correlation that having trouble because of the choice to work on an old system shouldn't be developers problems is (in MY opinion) a bit childish, and also _IMO_ I do believe that developers needs to learn to ignore some of these complaints, but I agree: it would probably have been better if I didn't use that kind of retorical approach for the level of the debate, so I'll skip it in the future.

Anyway:



NYC Composer @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> snattack @ Sat Apr 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Synesthesia @ Sat Apr 12 said:
> ...



1. I read your post again, fair enough. Although it's my personal viewpoint that I believe there too much of complaints from users who're using old stuff, but it wasn't respectful.

2. Fair enough again.



Edward_Martin @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> Now, on to the ridiculous snattack. Unlike you, I am not an entitled elitist fanatic, I don't think anyone should have to buy a new computer or move to a newer OS or add a feakin' partition just to use a downloader...not unless the library itself requires the new OS, in which case...choices. I bet you wouldn't be so eager to sing Spitfire their praises if you couldn't afford a new computer at the drop of a hat, but since you apparently can, its easy for you to look down on the rest. You don't stop there though, you then go on to say the Devs should ignore them like lepers, whats wrong with you? If anyone needs to grow up, its you.
> 
> This could turn into a big PR mess for you guys if you keep encouraging clowns like these, just saying.



In what way would ever suggest that the combination "solve the problem" and in the same sentence suggest "borrow a second computer" give substance to these accusations:

1. You assume I'm rich, which I'm not.

2. You suggest I'm buying tons of computers, which I don't.

3. You suggest I step on people with less economical advantages, which I don't.

4. An "elitist fanatic"? Really? From what: "solve the problem"? There is NO WAY you could ever come to that conclusion from my short post, you've never met or spoken to me before. That's just lousy attempts of using surpression techniques and is based on pure imagination.

5. Suggest that I'm part of some kind of PR campain connected to Spitfire? Based on WHAT in that short post? I have a couple of their libraries, amongst others, that's all.

I'm a freelancer as most people here, which - as we know - doesn't come with a great salary, but I plan my purchases so that I have working tools, counting on a maximum lifespan of 3 years, changing what's need then. This is professional tools, they should be up to date, but that's just my opinion. So, if you're going to attack me personally (which I'm aware I deserved since I made a harsh comment), make it based on facts, and not fantasies.

What I DO agree on is that it should be printed in clearly among the requirements on the Spitfire website. I've looked for a while on the product page now, and I can't find the requirement, only the one with "full Kontakt".


----------



## The Darris (Apr 13, 2014)

Just to play devils advocate on this whole 'new downloader' process SF is using, for a dev to switch to a new delivery system is a slippery slope. If any of you recall when Sonokinetic moved to their current downloader by releasing a free Tutti patch, a huge majority of "customers" (quoted because they weren't buying anything) went on the attack against Sonokinetic because they were having issues with the download app. For crying out loud their facebook feed was littered with hate messages all because someone couldn't download their free Tutti patch, that to me just shows the society of the 'music production world.' The few (in this case many) bad apples spoil the bunch but overall, Sonokinetic was testing out a new delivery system and the overall public view of it was negative. They eventually got it worked out and it works for them. 

Spitfire is taking on a big undertaking by having their own personal delivery system. Perhaps they should have shared the issues with it ahead of time but what's done is done. They aren't going to go back to connect and (I might be wrong) they may still have the individual download links upon request as well. I understand peoples frustrations with this not being compatible with earlier Mac OS's but I feel fighting against it would be like arguing that new libraries aren't compatible with Kontakt 3, that to me is just ridiculous. Part of working in this industry is staying up to date with software and technology, I understand your system might be completely stable but eventually you will need to update. There are ways to work around this annoyance that SF have recommended in this thread and they will probably include that information in the email links with feature updates and product purchases.


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## uselessmind (Apr 13, 2014)

snattack @ Sun Apr 13 said:


> Although it's my personal viewpoint that I believe there too much of complaints from users who're using old stuff,



So how many complaints would be ok for you?
On this forum i haven't seen to much complaining about anything, not even the complaing about people complaning. (all imho of course)

People complaining about products, companies etc is quite useful to me. 
Even if its just to see if and how a company responds and deals with those situations, how ridiculous they may seem sometimes.

On the topic at hand, the choice argument goes both ways doesn't it?
They can choose not to support old systems to save resources.
In return they might have to deal with some people being unhappy about it.
And how they deal with it is their choice as well.

So its all fine isn't it ?


----------



## Edward_Martin (Apr 13, 2014)

snattack said:


> Some people won't ever be satisfied. If (a very few) people want to run a 5 year old dusty OS, just let them and ignore their whining. I can't believe people would ever complain about this, or worse: use it as an argument against buying Spitfire products.
> 
> Grow up, buy or borrow a second computer, problem solved.



Lets analyze your short post and see if my assumptions about you are unfair based on your own words.

"Some people won't ever be satisfied. If (a very few) people want to run a 5 year old dusty OS, just let them and ignore their whining."

That right there sounds elitist no matter how you want to frame the context. I mean, feel free to defend that statement however you want, but its a pretty damning statement.

Definition: Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality or worth, higher intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others;

The "intrinsic quality/distinctive attribute" here is the superior OS, however, having a better OS alone does not make one and Elitist, what squares the circle is that you go on to say that those without said OS (i.e. intrinsic quality/distinctive attribute) should be ignored, which implies your influence is greater than that of others.

Hope that clarifies it for you.

"I can't believe people would ever complain about this, or worse: use it as an argument against buying Spitfire products."

This is where I see blind loyalty, or fanaticism, because had you bothered to read the OP's post and my subsequent reply, you will see no mention of boycotting Spitfire in any way shape or form. Its bad enough you insinuate people as being ungrateful whiners without knowing them at all, its another thing completely to do so out of context. To be fair to you, you were only following on the heels of Paul, who made it seem like we were ungrateful whiners with his reply in the first place. I get it, you don't necessarily think for yourself, and you seem to be doubling down or trying to defend what you said originally as being taken out of context, when the person who is most guilty of assumptions and generally making things up is you.

Last but certainly not least:

"Grow up, buy or borrow a second computer, problem solved."

This one is a doozy, but ironically I didn't actually weigh in on this when I called you out because it would have resorted in name calling, and I wont stoop down to the level of immaturity you have on display here. I mean, you could have just said:

"borrow a second computer, problem solved."

It still would have been callous and dismissive, but at least it doesn't call anyone names. This one speaks for itself I think.

Also, lets put the final nails on the coffin shall we? As a fun exercise.



snattack said:


> 4. An "elitist fanatic"? Really? From what: "solve the problem"? There is NO WAY you could ever come to that conclusion from my short post, you've never met or spoken to me before. That's just lousy attempts of using surpression techniques and is based on pure imagination.



The irony of the first half of this statement is amusing. but I think its safe to say I "solved the problem". Lets tackle this "surpression technique" gibberish. If calling you out the way I did is suppression, because I countered that irresponsible post with logic and reasoning as I just neatly laid out for you above, then I am indeed guilty of suppressing you (if that is even possible on a public forum), but then again so is anyone that uses logic and reasoning when formulating their responses...



snattack said:


> 5. Suggest that I'm part of some kind of PR campain connected to Spitfire? Based on WHAT in that short post? I have a couple of their libraries, amongst others, that's all.



Sorry, this again is inaccurate, I give Spitfire a lot more credit than that, and would never in a million years believe that they'd be affiliated with someone like you. What I did say, was that Spitfire should be careful of antagonizing the good folks on this forum for speaking up about something we saw as a bit misleading and/or wrong because of the irrational mob mentality some have exhibited in the past when their favorite brand is put into question. If ever there was such a thing as "surpression techniques" on the internet, riling up your adoring fans against the supposed opposition for little more than calling them out on one mistake (which could have easily been addressed in a professional way), this is it.

If your honestly taken aback by my "assumptions" or as you call it accusations (not a crime to be arrogant) of you, based off of your original poorly executed, short, partially cohesive, insensitive, lazy, off topic/context post, then I have some advice. Don't dish it, if you can't take it...problem solved.


----------



## midi_controller (Apr 13, 2014)

Maybe I'm missing something but... why does anyone need a fancy download program for RAR files? It's not just Spitfire I've seen going this route either, and it never made sense to me. I can open a RAR file on Windows 95 if I wanted to, so the only problem here is the application to get said RAR file, which to me seems like a very big hurdle to jump through for no apparent reason.


----------



## Stiltzkin (Apr 13, 2014)

midi_controller @ Sun Apr 13 said:


> Maybe I'm missing something but... why does anyone need a fancy download program for RAR files? It's not just Spitfire I've seen going this route either, and it never made sense to me. I can open a RAR file on Windows 95 if I wanted to, so the only problem here is the application to get said RAR file, which to me seems like a very big hurdle to jump through for no apparent reason.



Judging by the information available, it will be an account based system so you can download your specific files (just like before) however also likely allow updating through the application. It being able to check your current version (similar to audiobro's LASS system and NI service center) would allow you to update everything very quickly, and with them updating so many things to bml code base there will likely be a lot of changes across the board, when one thing gets improved it would allow them to update everything in one quick sweep, and thus allow everyone else to update quickly.

Having this done by a third party developer causes a lot of headaches for any company - whenever you have something related to your own business that is not in your control, you'll be held responsible for any interruptions in the service that are out of your control, which would lead to bad press/media and that's extremely damaging, especially for smaller companies - better to be in complete control of the whole process!


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## midi_controller (Apr 13, 2014)

The updating thing I can kind of understand, although I do think it's unnecessary considering how easy this stuff usually is to update (drag files over, done!). Of course, I'm not saying that Spitfire or anyone else can't set up their own downloading solution, just that I think the _program_ is a bit pointless. Having their own download servers which are account based is perfectly achievable without sticking a program their customer's computer. Besides, as we have seen, you can alienate some of your customers this way, and considering that every developer talks about how small the market is, it doesn't seem like a very good idea.

Also, I don't like having all these little downloaders that I have to install and then uninstall the same day. Just rubs me the wrong way. :/


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## Adrian Myers (Apr 13, 2014)

midi_controller @ Sun Apr 13 said:


> ...I think the _program_ is a bit pointless.


Yeah. It's pretty slick for a first effort though. I just used it to download the Flute Consort and Mural and found the app very civilized.

I like the approach taken by Ableton, where it's account-based and centralized but also web-based, apparently without being a security problem (I have to imagine Ableton would be the biggest target for exploitative behavior in all of music production). In graphics, Luxology (now owned by The Foundry) also just rely on a secure web portal, although of course both Luxology and Ableton are offering applications with their own authentication process, not content for another application they don't control. Some companies have gone for a hybrid. Autodesk, for example, has a fantastic subscriber web portal which offers persistent access to a ton of stuff, but the big items still require their desktop app to download.


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## mac4d (Apr 13, 2014)

Snattack said:


> OK: Running 10.6 (which is 5 years old now) is a choice...


And a wise choice for me too, based on research, info, advice, experience, software I use considerations, etc. 

You've posted this "5 years old" bit twice now: FTR, I'm not running 5 year old 10.6 (and never did), I'm running the improved 10.6.8, the latest updated version of 10.6 released june 2011 (just one month older than 10.7). It's less than *3* years new, sparkling, brilliant, stable, just how I like it!

10.7 for music production was never going to happen for me considering all the negative stuff I read about it, and 10.8.1 and 10.8.2 were also reportedly poor choices with it's lagging problems in Logic. Only when 10.8.3 came out did things start looking up, but I still didn't really have a need to upgrade to Mountain Lion with still young 10.6.8 being super stable for me.

That said, after some googling, I don't see much of a problem (other than I don't really want to!) buying 10.8.5 for $20 from Apple, or Mavericks for free, and installing it on an external FW hard drive that I already have and then booting from that strictly for Spitfire's new downloader/installer app (assuming I can do that and not affect my 10.6.8 system on internal drive in any way).


----------



## snattack (Apr 14, 2014)

Edward_Martin @ Sun Apr 13 said:


> Lets analyze your short post and see if my assumptions about you are unfair based on your own words.



I'll probably have to clarify the "you can't make this assumption based on this post only"-part: this entire analysis of me as a PERSON exists ONLY IN YOUR HEAD, because the post itself contains to little information to be accurate. Yet, it's fascinating how some people can make up stories out of nothing.



Edward_Martin @ Sun Apr 13 said:


> "Some people won't ever be satisfied. If (a very few) people want to run a 5 year old dusty OS, just let them and ignore their whining."
> 
> That right there sounds elitist no matter how you want to frame the context. I mean, feel free to defend that statement however you want, but its a pretty damning statement.
> 
> ...



Well, since if seems you didn't bother reading anything else I posted the second time, I might have to explain it again: almost ALL machines that run 10.6 can run 10.7 (except the older single- and dual core machines). Then, still running older systems EVEN if they're outdated is a choice, which I respect (working setup = don't touch anything), but believing that developers should keep up-to-date products compatible with older OSes forever is a ridiculous demand and imo self centered (I don't believe you wrote that in any post, this is a general opinion). Still, there are plenty of individuals who will complain and believe that this is the duty of a developer, and those should be ignored, because choosing to stay on outdated equipment means that you have to solve your own problems. A developer has to draw a line somewhere.

Based on this, I disagree with your analysis, because it would mean that any opinion could be elitist. From that view any opinion is actually always elitist, since an opinion itself is based on the fact that you believe you're right about something. My opinion is that people who work in the professional field have an obligation to stay updated OR solve the problems that BY CHOICE come with older equipment. Perhaps it was a "damning" statement without knowing the context, but that not the point: it's impossible to ever come to your conclusion about my personality based on one single sentence without making up a fairytale, which you've done.




Edward_Martin @ Sun Apr 13 said:


> "I can't believe people would ever complain about this, or worse: use it as an argument against buying Spitfire products."
> 
> This is where I see blind loyalty, or fanaticism, because had you bothered to read the OP's post and my subsequent reply, you will see no mention of boycotting Spitfire in any way shape or form. Its bad enough you insinuate people as being ungrateful whiners without knowing them at all, its another thing completely to do so out of context. To be fair to you, you were only following on the heels of Paul, who made it seem like we were ungrateful whiners with his reply in the first place. I get it, you don't necessarily think for yourself, and you seem to be doubling down or trying to defend what you said originally as being taken out of context, when the person who is most guilty of assumptions and generally making things up is you.



Ah, now I understand what happened, the use of "Spitfire" here. I probably should have written "buying products", but I figured since this thread is about Spitfire products it was OK to use it, but sure, I'll be more careful in the future adressing any vendor by text. This is another example of how you've built an entire island of a pile of sand, and only because of one word, you've constructed a story. Again, my point: without guessing, most of your analysis wouldn't exists.

Also, I believe it was obvious this was related to those posts that were in relation to the one I quoted after Synthesias first post. Indeed there was a post there stating that he would stop buying stuff for now.



Edward_Martin @ Sun Apr 13 said:


> Last but certainly not least:
> 
> "Grow up, buy or borrow a second computer, problem solved."
> 
> ...



Fair enough, it was unnecessary using this retorical approach, which I also stated in my last post. Again: the point is that you've created an entire false assumption about my personality out of a very short post without any other information, and no: it DOESN'T speak for itself, even though it seems you believe that it's possible to assemble your assumptions from a few short sentences. 




Edward_Martin @ Sun Apr 13 said:


> Also, lets put the final nails on the coffin shall we? As a fun exercise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You call it "problems solved", I call it "guessing", "stories", "misintepretation", etc.

What I meant was, and which are obvious in the latest post, is your usage of textbook surpression techniques, and yes indeed, they are used all the time in forums. There are tons of examples here:

"Hope that clarifies it for you."

"...entitled elitist fanatic"

"This could turn into a big PR mess for you guys if you keep encouraging clowns like these, just saying."

"I get it, you don't necessarily think for yourself"

"The irony of the first half of this statement is amusing"

"I give Spitfire a lot more credit than that, and would never in a million years believe that they'd be affiliated with someone like you"

Retorical spices used as attempts for diminshing, they contain no information but seem - at a first glimpse - discredit the opponent. You would argue that my first post has this kind of retorical elements, and yes, it has. But the difference is that it wasn't ever aimed at a single person (except ONLY the one single sentence about using a downloader as an argument for not buying a product, which I still don't understand why anyone would do).



Edward_Martin @ Sun Apr 13 said:


> Sorry, this again is inaccurate, I give Spitfire a lot more credit than that, and would never in a million years believe that they'd be affiliated with someone like you. What I did say, was that Spitfire should be careful of antagonizing the good folks on this forum for speaking up about something we saw as a bit misleading and/or wrong because of the irrational mob mentality some have exhibited in the past when their favorite brand is put into question. If ever there was such a thing as "surpression techniques" on the internet, riling up your adoring fans against the supposed opposition for little more than calling them out on one mistake (which could have easily been addressed in a professional way), this is it.
> 
> If your honestly taken aback by my "assumptions" or as you call it accusations (not a crime to be arrogant) of you, based off of your original poorly executed, short, partially cohesive, insensitive, lazy, off topic/context post, then I have some advice. Don't dish it, if you can't take it...problem solved.



Again, since you've interpreted my usage of the word "Spitfire" in the first post too literally, most if this part lacks any relation to this thread.

Except the last part: it is in fact true that my first post was insensitive and lacks any real addition to the debate, but it was never meant as that, and that's not the point: the point is that you've constructed an incredible story out of something so small as a few sentences, and made assumptions about my personality and in combination with cheap retoric tricks to try making a point that doesn't exist.

Except my statements - that most of what you've written are false regarding both the intepretation of the post and me as a person, and therefore is a nice, but unrealistic fairytale - you'll see that there's nothing ELSE in my arguments that contain any attempt to analyze your personality or diminish you as a person. That is the difference, and that's what I reacted to.

If you want to continue this debate, I suggest we use P.M instead, this is now way off topic.


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## snattack (Apr 14, 2014)

mac4d @ Sun Apr 13 said:


> Snattack said:
> 
> 
> > OK: Running 10.6 (which is 5 years old now) is a choice...
> ...



Windows 7 still has updates several times a week, but that doesn't make it a 2014 OS? I respect running 10.6, even though my first post might not have looked that way, the point was "the choice"-part. FTR, I'm running 10.8 and it works fine, and is generally considered stable.

An external installation of OSX won't affect your internal harddrive.


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## Edward_Martin (Apr 14, 2014)

snattack @ Mon Apr 14 said:


> If you want to continue this debate, I suggest we use P.M instead, this is now way off topic.



At this point I have ZERO interest in carrying on with you, what time I've wasted so far could have been used in a constructive back-and-forth with folks that don't intellectually bore me.

Your original post, as short as it was, was enough for me to formulate my own impression of you. The fact that its so short and off base and manages to insult at the same time is a feat. You can try to convince yourself and others that your actually an alright guy, but if you don't want people to "misjudge" you in the future I suggest you don't introduce yourself into a conversation with that next time. The fact you say those insults weren't aimed at any individual person actually makes it worse, since your then handing it out willy-nilly to folks you don't even know...some of them might even be nice people. Food for thought. Ironically this also seems to be your pet-peeve, people spatting noise about you without first getting to know you or your situation. So don't act surprised when people don't like you for that. Don't act surprised when their insulted, as some were (in case you were wondering). More over, don't act surprised if some of us bite back.

[EDIT] Thanks for lecturing me on how I spice my own rhetoric, you should take notes on how its done, though I suggest you refrain from doing so the next time you want to randomly insult people.

One final point, which goes back to the topic at hand. Whoever it was that mentioned he wouldn't be buying Spitfire products for now did not say he was going to stop purchasing Spitfire products altogether, had he meant that, it would have been far less ambiguous. I assume he will want to fix his problem before buying anymore products he can't directly access for the time being, which is a perfectly fair and reasonable reaction given his current circumstance. Which brings us again to the crux of the matter, *that had we been at least given notice*, those of us who do suffer this issue could have then made a more informed purchase and arranged for an alternative means of download ahead of taking the risk. Is that really that unreasonable? I mean, it seems like a pretty major transition worthy of at least a newsletter if you ask me. It is also completely separate from whether or not they made the right choice in developing this new system, so lets not confuse the two any longer.


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## mac4d (Apr 14, 2014)

> Windows 7 still has updates several times a week, but that doesn't make it a 2014 OS?


Well, to me it does. Plus it has the current most market share in 2014, almost 49%, so it's the main OS of 2014.

Now with OS X, 10.9 has the current most market share, followed by *10.6*, then close behind is 10.8, then 10.7, and then way down in market share is 10.5, 10.4. 

Since 10.6 is in 2nd place, all the more reason for developers to support it for a while longer, even tho Apple isn't! IMO.

http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating ... imeframe=M


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## NYC Composer (Apr 14, 2014)

Nuto (the OP) is a close friend of mine. He doesn't like fractious debates and rarely posts, but I can tell you Spitfire graciously gave him a refund. I know he's a big fan of Spitfire's work and will purchase other libraries from them once he buys a slave or gets a new system.

In doing a little digging, the current figure I found for Snow Leopard users is 18% of all OSX users. I'd be curious to know how that extrapolates to musicians/composers. I can see where it would be a tough number for SF in deciding which way to go.My fond wish is that there will be some workaround like the one that allows SL users to use K5.3. I think it's natural for a customer to want a company to adapt to his needs rather than to have to adjust to the company's needs. Still, I do understand that a company has to primarily look after the larger piece of its customer base.

For me, the upgrading problems are twofold:

1. First and absolutely foremost, my system runs like butter, baby. Rarely any sort of glitch or hiccup. My workflow is the best it's ever been on 10.68.

2. I am loathe to lose some ancient Rosetta- based plug-ins. Though older than dirt, I rely on a few and will have to replace them.

As stated, setting up a separate partition on an external drive would obviate all that, but of course that adds time and effort to the dl process, already arduous despite whatever improvements.

My fond wish is that there will be some workaround like the one that allows SL users to use K5.3, but my guess is that's not in the cards. Life will go on anyway


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## Adrian Myers (Apr 14, 2014)

Just to clarify, the suggestion to partition a drive (at least the one I made) wouldn't normally apply to external devices. With an external device, you can just dedicate the whole thing to the OS, because these are rarely important drives and it's not like you can't use the external OS drive as storage when your older OS is active.

It's only if you *cannot* use an external drive and *must* use an internal drive that is already used for storage that a partition would be helpful. And again, you can always copy files off, reformat with the new OS, and then copy the files back since even a second OS drive (which is not the boot drive most of the time) can serve as storage. So by the partitioning comment I only meant that even the worst-case scenario imaginable requires only a few clicks to solve, and most are much easier than that.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 14, 2014)

Adrian Myers @ Mon Apr 14 said:


> Just to clarify, the suggestion to partition a drive (at least the one I made) wouldn't normally apply to external devices. With an external device, you can just dedicate the whole thing to the OS, because these are rarely important drives and it's not like you can't use the external OS drive as storage when your older OS is active.
> 
> It's only if you *cannot* use an external drive and *must* use an internal drive that is already used for storage that a partition would be helpful. And again, you can always copy files off, reformat with the new OS, and then copy the files back since even a second OS drive (which is not the boot drive most of the time) can serve as storage. So by the partitioning comment I only meant that even the worst-case scenario imaginable requires only a few clicks to solve, and most are much easier than that.



..., or the external drive IS important and has important data on it, so you'd want to carefully partition. In either case, there are extra steps to be taken to purchase a product.


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## colony nofi (Apr 14, 2014)

My secondary mac pro machine (used mainly for post, but sometimes also mixing compositions) is on 10.6.8
I got myself a 8GB USB stick.
Downloaded 10.9
Formatted / Partitioned the USB stick with a GUID partition table - and then used the command shown in the attached pic.
Done. Should be able to use the downloader on this machine now.
(I have already used it on my other machine - but I've decided to make this 10.9 boot disk just for the moments that I may need it.) 

So yeah, its a work around. But took less than an hour - and I was doing other work for most of that time waiting for downloads and copying.

Link for more detailed information :
http://osxdaily.com/2013/10/23/create-o ... all-drive/

B.


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## Edward_Martin (Apr 15, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon Apr 14 said:


> Nuto (the OP) is a close friend of mine. He doesn't like fractious debates and rarely posts, but I can tell you Spitfire graciously gave him a refund. I know he's a big fan of Spitfire's work and will purchase other libraries from them once he buys a slave or gets a new system.



That is refreshing news. I feel like this situation could have been handled a lot better from the on set, but kudos to Spitfire for doing the right thing by the OP, and thanks to the OP most of all for bringing this issue to light in the first place. Overall it doesn't change what I felt was an unfair reaction from Paul towards me in particular as a result of all this, but that's personal and besides the point that was made with this thread. I give credit where credit is due and can only hope other companies consider *all* their customers as well or better in the future when implementing any new changes.


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## nutotech (Apr 15, 2014)

As the guy who started this whole melee I'm amazed at everyone's passion! Thank you NYC Composer and Edward_Martin and all the others for being on my side.  

And a big thanks to Paul and Christian at Spitfire for not only graciously refunding my payment, but allowing me to purchase at the same discounted price in the future. Very classy, guys.

One other plug for SF: They have developed (to my taste) the most user friendly, consistent layout for Kontakt. From one library to the next, it's exactly the same. The learning curve is very short and being able to switch between articulations with a KS is fantastic.

Now you boys go back to fighting amongst yourselves. I'm gonna make some music! :wink:


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Apr 15, 2014)

nutotech @ Tue Apr 15 said:


> Now you boys go back to fighting amongst yourselves.



o[])


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 15, 2014)

Good on the SF folks. Hopefully when they roll out the emails they'll link that cool looking trick of putting Mavericks on a USB dongle, it looks like a great solution for those otherwise stuck.


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## mk282 (Apr 15, 2014)

Got the e-mail from them, they indeed linked that USB stick trick.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 15, 2014)

mk282 @ Tue Apr 15 said:


> Got the e-mail from them, they indeed linked that USB stick trick.



Ah yes, just got it too. In fact, it's pretty much exactly what I and several others said was all that was needed - a bit of advance warning and help for those who need it.

Hooray, all is well with the SF world once more. Bring on the updates


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## brett (Apr 15, 2014)

I have followed this thread with interest and finally decided to chip in and share my own experiences. 

Like the OP, I too was on the receiving end for criticising a much loved product, in my case it was specifically the programming for the first release of Loegria. I was made to feel that these forums weren't the place for criticisms, however constructive I might have intended them to be. My views certainly weren't received as constructive and I was spanked (gently) by the developer and (less gently) by some in the VI-control community. Did I do the right thing in raising my concerns RE the programming in the way I did? 

Well, since then I note that pretty much all of my comments have been taken on board by Spitifre and addressed in one way or another, as has occurred right here in this thread. I don't take credit for this at all, and gain no great pleasure in the irony that despite being spanked my (and others' similar) comments have since been addressed. Indeed, on one level I'm left impressed as Spitfire is one of the handful of devs who actively develop and improve their libraries over time, which is why I remain a loyal customer. However, I do wish that criticisms by end users were handled better by the community. 

Understandably some developers and loyal fans would rather negative comments not be aired publicly and only via sanctioned support ticket systems, but what people forget is that often it is those who are most passionate about a product are the same people suggesting improvements. In fact I remember hearing stories about one of our most famous members who successfully agitated behind the scenes for features dropped from Cubase to be re-introduced in subsequent versions! Most of us don't have that sort of sway and so forums are a useful and rapid way of raising awareness and gauging support for possible improvements. We all work in isolated cocoons and so knowing others are having the same problems is reassuring and connects us to the community. We can often find solutions for each other more quickly than a developer can also. Yes, sometimes the language used in critical posts can be clumsy and can smart a little, but often so too does the response to such threads by devs and fans. I know developers feel that a negative post can impact on people's perception of their products and that this can translate to poorer sales. However, while I can't speak for others, if the developer or those in the community respond with a degree of understanding to a poster's concerns this makes me _more_ likely to purchase a product that meets my needs rather than less likely because I know the developer is actively interested in helping the end user get the best out of their product. Just look at forums such as the audiobro forums and you'll see the sort of patience and understanding I'm talking about. 

Just because a poster's criticisms don't seem important to you the reader (or the developer) doesn't mean they aren't important to the poster, regardless of the genuine merit of their comments. Whether we agree or disagree with the concerns raised, we should all respect _that_ at least don't you think?

B


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 16, 2014)

Good and fair post, Brett.


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## Diffusor (Apr 16, 2014)

midi_controller @ Sun Apr 13 said:


> The updating thing I can kind of understand, although I do think it's unnecessary considering how easy this stuff usually is to update (drag files over, done!). Of course, I'm not saying that Spitfire or anyone else can't set up their own downloading solution, just that I think the _program_ is a bit pointless. Having their own download servers which are account based is perfectly achievable without sticking a program their customer's computer. Besides, as we have seen, you can alienate some of your customers this way, and considering that every developer talks about how small the market is, it doesn't seem like a very good idea.
> 
> Also, I don't like having all these little downloaders that I have to install and then uninstall the same day. Just rubs me the wrong way. :/



I am sure part if it is not having to pay Continuata license fees for every library sold. Personally never had a problem with Continuata. It's kind of nice just to have one downloader app for most libraries. Now I have to reach for Continuata, no wait 8Dio's downloader., no wait this is Spitfire's, etc. And then keep them all updated. Then there's development time the companies have to spend to maintain the downloader app which they could be using to do more important things like develop sample libraries.


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## jules (Apr 17, 2014)

Hello,

without getting into debate, i have a simple question about the transition between the old and new download managers : as a sable (1 & 3) owner, will the 5.1 files (that i actually don't need and did not download) will still be available to download later (via continuata ?), or will you, spitfire guys, send us new links or something ? I registred today on the site as requested and saw no "your products & downloads" category.

thank you


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 21, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Fri Apr 11 said:


> http://blake.so/spitfire_updates/



Have the ones listed April 1 been released already or are they upcoming? I just want to make sure I haven't missed anything.

On a related note, I'm VERY glad to see the new sable updates are going to show the version number in the interface, I wish every sample library did that. Just trying to check what I have, with libraries that aren't labeled like that it can be a devil of a time just figuring out what I have now.

And another Spitfire comment/suggestion - I love the graphical representations of articulations on the staves, but it would help to have whatever labels are needed so that there aren't more than one that look the same. The harp gliss instrument in particular shows the six symbols for gliss but no way to see which is which. Adding "maj", "min", "dim" etc as part of the graphic would make it hugely more useful.

Thanks for the updates, looking forward to the new stuff.


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