# Contemplating the big jump from Mac to PC



## dmsaunders (Aug 13, 2018)

It's a whole new world for me and I'd be extremely grateful if someone better informed in the PC brigade would take a look at this custom build and see if it'll fly

Wanting to run 600+ instruments ideally, VEP 6 + Cubase 9.5 - single machine

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/RgNYmq

Open to any and all amendments (especially ones that make it cheaper )

Cheers in advance


----------



## Symfoniq (Aug 13, 2018)

My recommendations wouldn't make it cheaper, but having built well over a dozen systems at this point (probably closer to two dozen), I've become partial in a few areas: I like Seasonic power supplies, Fractal Design cases, and Noctua CPU coolers and case fans. All of these will contribute to a very quiet system. None of your selections are bad, but if I changed anything, it'd be these things.


----------



## Tyll (Aug 13, 2018)

Changing the fans, coolers and PSU for silent ones is what I'd do as well. Might be an extra $200, but when working with audio that's worth it.

You can save some money by going with an 8700K instead. It's almost the same speed and costs quite a bit less.

I think you can get cheaper RAM as well. Speeds don't matter much here. I'd personally buy the cheapest. I'd not pay more than $50 extra to get some higher RAM speeds - you just won't even notice it.

Also you can buy Windows 10 on eBay for about $4 - I have done that at least 5 times without any problems. Just go with one of the dealers that has 5000+ sold items and 99% good reviews.

You could get a graphics card from the MSI GAMING X series. Those have the most silent fans (other than that they are identical). If you can find one for cheap, I'd change that as well like the other fans.

So yeah that's basically everything changed by now


----------



## zolhof (Aug 13, 2018)

Nice build but don't overlook your power supply, you'd be surprised how often a computer can crap out due to bad power. I wouldn't get anything lower than a platinum certified one. The Seasonic SSR-750PD2 is very reliable and as future proof as you can get (12-yr warranty). They should build a little indicator in those things to remind us they're still there and working hard at their job.


----------



## Mornats (Aug 13, 2018)

Unless you're doubling up the machine for gaming I'd drop any Nvidia card. They add a bit of latency and if you don't need it, best get rid of it. AMD cards are fine from what I've heard.


----------



## novicecomposer (Aug 14, 2018)

Symfoniq said:


> I like Seasonic power supplies, Fractal Design cases, and Noctua CPU coolers and case fans. All of these will contribute to a very quiet system



Yeah, definitely get a Seasonic. They make very high quality power supplies. Pick one that has high energy efficiency (mine is 80+ Titanium) and an adaptive fan, which runs only when needed. Mine ever runs for my typical workload so it's basically fanless.

I also have a Fractal R5, which claims to be built for silence, has quiet PC fans (large blades) and heavy panels for soundproofing but it doesn't block the sound. As long as there are vents, the sound will escape. My conclusion is to attack the sources: CPU fans, GPU fans, and drives.

I'm eyeing on https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HW2O2L2 (this fanless cooler) for CPU and this fanless video card, or this one. SSDs should do the drives.


----------



## shomynik (Aug 14, 2018)

I made a mistake a month ago going with the most recent Seasonic model - *650 Watt Seasonic Prime Modular 80+ Platinum*.

As I already had and used two PCs with seasonic-r5-noctua combo (X-650 and XP-660), I was again expecting everything you guys are saying, BUT in the recent models they changed the fan, and it's not silent at all anymore. It spins very often (hybrid mode activated ofc) and when it does it's CLEARLY AUDIBLE. You can google it, people are talking about it so it's not just mine, I just didn't think to check prior the purchase as I was, like you guys, praising the Seasonic PSUs. And I'm sure they're still fantastic, but they are not as silent as they once were.

I returned it and somehow was able to find an old model (old stock in one German online store) *Seasonic X-850* (which i think is the best series overall, better then XP series - but XP is non-audible as well), and I'm very happy with it, never hear it.


----------



## Mornats (Aug 14, 2018)

Check our Corsair PSUs. I have an 850 RM (only Gold certified) and I've never heard the fans spin up even when gaming.


----------



## dmsaunders (Aug 14, 2018)

This is extremely helpful - thank you all. Will amend accordingly


----------



## Symfoniq (Aug 14, 2018)

shomynik said:


> I made a mistake a month ago going with the most recent Seasonic model - *650 Watt Seasonic Prime Modular 80+ Platinum*.



I'm using this exact power supply in the computer I'm using to write this post, and have never had any issues with it. I'm not saying nobody is having problems, just that I haven't experienced them. My Seasonic Prime Platinum is completely silent. And I'm extremely sensitive to unwanted noise.

I also have a Seasonic X in an older computer, and it's been going strong for almost five years now.


----------



## dmsaunders (Aug 14, 2018)

How does the i7 deal with threading/core distribution etc.? Past few years on Mac I've been working with Xeon and wanting to make sure this handles large templates well with VEP + Cubase


----------



## dmsaunders (Aug 14, 2018)

Also totally forgot to mention - I'm running 3 monitors here (2x DELL S2240L, 1x LG Ultrawide) that are connected via 2x mini displayport and 1x DVI respectively.

The only options here appear to be Radeon chipsets in the $200-300 mark, or am I missing a trick?


_p.s. updated build here for those interested - https://pcpartpicker.com/list/pfJTpG_


----------



## shomynik (Aug 14, 2018)

Symfoniq said:


> I'm using this exact power supply in the computer I'm using to write this post, and have never had any issues with it. I'm not saying nobody is having problems, just that I haven't experienced them. My Seasonic Prime Platinum is completely silent. And I'm extremely sensitive to unwanted noise.
> 
> I also have a Seasonic X in an older computer, and it's been going strong for almost five years now.



That's very interesting to hear, and it reanimates my fate in Seasonic 

But could it be that it never spins for you? Maybe your temperatures are low enough (not sure if those models work with temperature or load).

Could you turn off the Hybrid mode button and report back if you still don't hear the fan? When turned off it should spin all the time.


----------



## starise (Aug 14, 2018)

I used Noctura cooling on my last build. Highly recommended. Noctura
Fractal Design is a good choice.

I have had good results with ASRock Extreme line of MOBO's. Just check the I/O to make sure the one you choose has what you need. 

You can use Thunderbolt with Windows but you need to double check your setup specs.

You don't mention if you are a hobbyist or a pro. If you're a pro the by all means buy up the memory. But if a hobbiest
you may not need all of that. You could always try 32gb or even 16gb. If you freeze the tracks 16gb might do it. I don't know your situation. Memory is something you can add later if you need it. The main cpu you selected is also overkill for a hobbyist. You can do a lot with a step down chip. 

My 5820K 6 core O.C. at 4.4 can easily pull 50 tracks of Kontakt. It lacks the full I/O for Thunderbolt though. At a minimum you want to use all lanes. TBH I have never pushed it to see what it was capable of beyond that. If mostly ITB I doubt it matters as much...and I'm guessing most here in VI are ITB.

What about your hard disk drives? Samsung has a solid drive line. Highly recommended for SSD. I split mine up with multiple 500 gb SSD's but you could go larger. Two minimum. I would stay away from HDD.

Win 10 professional allows more tweaks than home does. I use Home ok though.

I kinda had sticker shock too looking at your list. Seems steep compared to my build. I guess the prices go up much more when you begin to go high end on the chip. Still an advantage over Mac by a wide margin in terms of hardware.


----------



## dmsaunders (Aug 14, 2018)

Hi starise,

Pro user here - film composer, big orchestral/hybrid templates. Normally 500-600+ MIDI channels in Cubase, Kontakt instances hosted in VEP. I definitely need the RAM, and wanted processor as fast as I could afford (thinking about overclocking if I can).

Already sorted for SSD's - currently running my OS off a 250gb SSD, and my samples are running off a 2TB SSD via a Sonnet USB/PCI adaptor.

Thanks for your input


----------



## starise (Aug 15, 2018)

Ok that clears a lot up. If a man fishes for a living he had better buy a damned good boat. Now I see why you spec'd high. I'm a hobbiest so I don't need full compliments of string libraries. If I were in this for my mainstay I wouldn't skimp anywhere and I would back up everything.

Mismatched or bad memory can really screw things up and why I always use matched pairs from reputable makers. I stay away from the no name deep discounted stuff.

Good luck with the build!


----------



## Will Blackburn (Aug 15, 2018)

Been with these guys for 17/18 years. Core 4 is good. Pretty sure that Ram doubles up to 128 

http://www.carillonac1.com/daw-computers/towers/carillon-tower-music-pc-4/


----------



## starise (Aug 15, 2018)

Here's another builder that has proven to be good and dependable over time. He's very knowledgeable in both the hardware and software. Stands behind his work.
Purrfect Audio


----------



## kitekrazy (Aug 15, 2018)

Mornats said:


> Unless you're doubling up the machine for gaming I'd drop any Nvidia card. They add a bit of latency and if you don't need it, best get rid of it. AMD cards are fine from what I've heard.



or go with onboard graphics...Not a fan of AMD cards because of their power consumption.


----------



## MarcelM (Aug 15, 2018)

kitekrazy said:


> or go with onboard graphics...Not a fan of AMD cards because of their power consumption.



an rx560 draws the same amount as an 1050 ti.

the older cards were power hungry, but the recent models are not. on a pc i would always go with amd. it gives way better dpc latency.


----------



## Nao Gam (Aug 15, 2018)

I'd advise against win 10, better get 7/8 (or even try hackintosh if you're willing to put up with the setup). They're abyssmal, win vista were way better.
Then again if all you do on that pc is make music on a daw it may not be much of an issue anyway.


----------



## InLight-Tone (Aug 15, 2018)

Nao Gam said:


> I'd advise against win 10, better get 7/8 (or even try hackintosh if you're willing to put up with the setup). They're abyssmal, win vista were way better.
> Then again if all you do on that pc is make music on a daw it may not be much of an issue anyway.


My experience is quite the opposite. Win 7 was good, Vista was a disaster, Win 10 is not bad at all, I like it.


----------



## Nao Gam (Aug 15, 2018)

InLight-Tone said:


> My experience is quite the opposite. Win 7 was good, Vista was a disaster, Win 10 is not bad at all, I like it.


Of course people have different experiences and that's fine. You'll see a lot of hate for win 10, but also support, if you google around. I personally went from a vista laptop to a 10 laptop and I consider this a downgrade in many ways. But so far I've never been a power user tbh. Still have the laptop but I'm not putting them in my pc not a chance. There were several small annoyances here and there but what bugs me the most is microsoft is going down the "we know best how to run your pc" road. Makes sense, tech savvies will go linux and you have to appeal to the evergrowing demand of the base consumer (esp in China). 
In any case in music daw>os like I said and win 7 will become obsolete as far as sample libraries go eventually.


----------



## starise (Aug 15, 2018)

The days of lockups and blue screens seem to be a thing of the past. Win 10 is the most stable OS yet. Win 7 wasn't bad. Vista wasn't very good. I seen it as a crossover that was sitting in the middle. Never quite crossed over.

One thing I hold as uber important. I won't put virus software in a DAW. I have seen it goof up more than one computer. It works so well it won't let anything else work.

Win 10 already had a scanner in it to look for problems. If you stay off the gambling and porn, Don't answer any ads from Africa telling you your late grandmother has money for you. IOW use it as a daw not a web roving machine you'll be fine. If they're going to hack something it's more likely to be your cell phone.


----------



## kitekrazy (Aug 15, 2018)

Nao Gam said:


> I'd advise against win 10, better get 7/8 (or even try hackintosh if you're willing to put up with the setup). They're abyssmal, *win vista were way better*.
> Then again if all you do on that pc is make music on a daw it may not be much of an issue anyway.



I'll treat this as sarcasm. A Hackintosh is a high risk IMO.


----------



## kitekrazy (Aug 15, 2018)

Heroix said:


> an rx560 draws the same amount as an 1050 ti.
> 
> the older cards were power hungry, but the recent models are not. on a pc i would always go with amd. it gives way better dpc latency.



That's a great find for a time when cards are so expensive. $20 less than the 1050 on Newegg.


----------



## MarcelM (Aug 15, 2018)

kitekrazy said:


> I'll treat this as sarcasm. A Hackintosh is a high risk IMO.



i run a hackintosh (high sierra) and it runs stable like a rock. i even have a ryzen based hackintosh which kills every mac pro when it comes to performance, but there is sadly only one plugin which doesnt work for me (breeze 2). everything else works without a problem. no crashs, no pops etc 
my next one will be intel again. though.

hackintosh is pretty easy to build actually if you have the time and read some tutorials.


----------



## Nao Gam (Aug 15, 2018)

Heroix said:


> i run a hackintosh (high sierra) and it runs stable like a rock. i even have a ryzen based hackintosh which kills every mac pro when it comes to performance, but there is sadly only one plugin which doesnt work for me (breeze 2). everything else works without a problem. no crashs, no pops etc
> my next one will be intel again. though.
> 
> hackintosh is pretty easy to build actually if you have the time and read some tutorials.


I'll be building a threadripper ryzentosh for music production and some other stuff very soon nice to see another successful story on vi


----------



## InLight-Tone (Aug 15, 2018)

Heroix said:


> i run a hackintosh (high sierra) and it runs stable like a rock. i even have a ryzen based hackintosh which kills every mac pro when it comes to performance, but there is sadly only one plugin which doesnt work for me (breeze 2). everything else works without a problem. no crashs, no pops etc
> my next one will be intel again. though.
> 
> hackintosh is pretty easy to build actually if you have the time and read some tutorials.


I'm interested in this. Where does one start? I've done Linux in the past so I'm fairly skilled...


----------



## MarcelM (Aug 15, 2018)

InLight-Tone said:


> I'm interested in this. Where does one start? I've done Linux in the past so I'm fairly skilled...



https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/
https://www.tonymacx86.com/
https://hackintosher.com/
https://amd-osx.com/

for the first hackintosh i would recommend an intel based system.


----------



## Nao Gam (Aug 15, 2018)

InLight-Tone said:


> I'm interested in this. Where does one start? I've done Linux in the past so I'm fairly skilled...


Make sure you disable any auto updates (or just keep it offline when using macos). Hackintosh updates can occasionally be brutal.


----------



## MarcelM (Aug 15, 2018)

Nao Gam said:


> Make sure you disable any auto updates (or just keep it offline when using macos). Hackintosh updates can occasionally be brutal.



yah i recommend this for amd based hackintosh. my intel based one updates everything just fine.

i recommend to buy/use an old gfx card which works out of the box. iam using an r9 280 and that one makes it more easy a bit.


----------



## Nao Gam (Aug 15, 2018)

Heroix said:


> yah i recommend this for amd based hackintosh. my intel based one updates everything just fine.
> 
> i recommend to buy/use an old gfx card which works out of the box. iam using an r9 280 and that one makes it more easy a bit.


I've already bought everything. I'm actually putting 3 cards in but the hacky only needs one (will install linux too) and it's a radeon rx 560. I looked around before buying, it should work ok. The other 2 are compatible as well just in case.
If it goes to hell I'll use windows 7


----------



## MarcelM (Aug 15, 2018)

Nao Gam said:


> I've already bought everything. I'm actually putting 3 cards in but the hacky only needs one (will install linux too) and it's a radeon rx 560. I looked around before buying, it should work ok. The other 2 are compatible as well just in case.
> If it goes to hell I'll use windows 7



no worries, you will get the rx560 to work. it just doesnt work oob afaik.

btw. 13.3 is best choice for an amd based hackintosh.


----------



## Nao Gam (Aug 16, 2018)

Heroix said:


> no worries, you will get the rx560 to work. it just doesnt work oob afaik.
> 
> btw. 13.3 is best choice for an amd based hackintosh.


I'll keep this in mind thanks. The whole process is gonna be a lot of trial and error but I know what I'm getting myself into. Honestly win10 made me go "never again microsoft" that's why I chose hackintosh


----------



## MarcelM (Aug 16, 2018)

Nao Gam said:


> I'll keep this in mind thanks. The whole process is gonna be a lot of trial and error but I know what I'm getting myself into. Honestly win10 made me go "never again microsoft" that's why I chose hackintosh



https://hackintosher.com/guides/amd-ryzen-hackintosh-guide-installing-macos-high-sierra-10-13/
https://forum.amd-osx.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&p=42274#p42274

second link will give you the latest kernel which iam using and runs very good.
guess you will need to register, but with that both links you will get everything running without headache.


----------



## starise (Aug 16, 2018)

The OP stated they were contemplating a move from Mac to PC. So why would they consider a hackintosh?

Why do people go that route? The most obvious answer seems to be a boost in performance with a trade off that there could be other issues. This might not be the motive behind the change. There are other reasons why one might want to make a move between platforms.


----------



## kitekrazy (Aug 16, 2018)

starise said:


> The OP stated they were contemplating a move from Mac to PC. So why would they consider a hackintosh?
> 
> Why do people go that route? The most obvious answer seems to be a boost in performance with a trade off that there could be other issues. This might not be the motive behind the change. There are other reasons why one might want to make a move between platforms.



Often price and Windows has legacy support. I still use Icon Snatcher which was developed after Windows 95, all of my M-Audio cards still work. None of my cards wold work on a current Mac.


----------



## dmsaunders (Aug 16, 2018)

Couple of people on have mentioned Ryzen and Threadripper. I'm looking at an alternative motherboard to get more core for my buck right now - but I'm a little hesitant (remember the old 'reassuringly expensive' slogan from Stella Artois?).

The AMD stuff (Ryzen, Threadripper) is markedly cheaper with more cores - the only difference seems to be it can't perform hyperthreading like the Intel. Forgive my woeful knowledge here, but in terms of the way Vienna/Cubase works on a Windows system, is the lack of hyperthreading a major downside? Or am I better off just getting more cores?

https://pcpartpicker.com/products/compare/cRDzK8,BvgPxr,sxDzK8,bddxFT/


----------



## dmsaunders (Aug 16, 2018)

dmsaunders said:


> Also totally forgot to mention - I'm running 3 monitors here (2x DELL S2240L, 1x LG Ultrawide) that are connected via 2x mini displayport and 1x DVI respectively.
> 
> The only options here appear to be Radeon chipsets in the $200-300 mark, or am I missing a trick?



Also gonna bump my GPU question...


----------



## MarcelM (Aug 16, 2018)

dmsaunders said:


> Couple of people on have mentioned Ryzen and Threadripper. I'm looking at an alternative motherboard to get more core for my buck right now - but I'm a little hesitant (remember the old 'reassuringly expensive' slogan from Stella Artois?).
> 
> The AMD stuff (Ryzen, Threadripper) is markedly cheaper with more cores - the only difference seems to be it can't perform hyperthreading like the Intel. Forgive my woeful knowledge here, but in terms of the way Vienna/Cubase works on a Windows system, is the lack of hyperthreading a major downside? Or am I better off just getting more cores?
> 
> https://pcpartpicker.com/products/compare/cRDzK8,BvgPxr,sxDzK8,bddxFT/



ryzen does support hyperthreading.


----------



## InLight-Tone (Aug 16, 2018)

You can dual boot a Hackintosh with Windows 10 correct?


----------



## MarcelM (Aug 16, 2018)

InLight-Tone said:


> You can dual boot a Hackintosh with Windows 10 correct?



yes


----------



## starise (Aug 16, 2018)

In my experience AMD has always been less expensive. 

There was a certain stigma attached to AMD in pre Ryzen days.They were less expensive however slightly under performing Intel. They still managed to get the job done albeit with more heat and less performance than a comparable Intel chip. More heat usually means a shorter cpu life. This was enough for me to make my decision.

Things have changed slightly and now I think Ryzen is almost head to head if hyperthreading is not considered. 

It doesn't appear that Cubase directly supports hyperthreading and benefits more from clock speed. I personally stay with Intel because I like the compatibility they have with vendors which translates to more quality choices than a comparable AMD setup. If I were running a high performance setup for a business I doubt I would ever choose AMD simply because I don't think they have the longstanding track record Intel does. This may only be my perception of 
it. That and the fact that Intel has never once in 20 years or more let me down.

For a hobbyist though, AMD is probably fine. Possibly ok for high performance business too but I wouldn't want to be the one to find out. If I had money riding on a project it's going to be Intel.


----------



## dmsaunders (Aug 16, 2018)

Heroix said:


> ryzen does support hyperthreading.



So I was a little confused by this side-by-side comparison chart I linked above (link again below) - as it seems to have 'Simultaneous Multithreading' twice in the columns....one is empty for AMD, the other simply says 'Yes'.

Anyhow - does anyone have experience with the Threadripper for audio work? 12 cores at 3.5GHz would be fairly tasty if indeed it's well suited


----------



## Nao Gam (Aug 16, 2018)

starise said:


> The OP stated they were contemplating a move from Mac to PC. So why would they consider a hackintosh?
> 
> Why do people go that route? The most obvious answer seems to be a boost in performance with a trade off that there could be other issues. This might not be the motive behind the change. There are other reasons why one might want to make a move between platforms.


I wasn't really offering the hackintosh as a first solution, just as an option in case he's interested. I understand most people don't want to be bothered with the setting up and occasional risks they come with. Personally I chose this route cause I really hate win 10 and the way support for them from microsoft has worked for me (along with several things not working, obligatory updates &popups). Win 7 may fall behind soon.. I was gonna get a mac but my funds were somewhat limited and sample libraries only work for mac or windows.. I may buy macs later on but for now I'm giving hacks a shot.



dmsaunders said:


> Couple of people on have mentioned Ryzen and Threadripper. I'm looking at an alternative motherboard to get more core for my buck right now - but I'm a little hesitant (remember the old 'reassuringly expensive' slogan from Stella Artois?).
> 
> The AMD stuff (Ryzen, Threadripper) is markedly cheaper with more cores - the only difference seems to be it can't perform hyperthreading like the Intel. Forgive my woeful knowledge here, but in terms of the way Vienna/Cubase works on a Windows system, is the lack of hyperthreading a major downside? Or am I better off just getting more cores?
> 
> https://pcpartpicker.com/products/compare/cRDzK8,BvgPxr,sxDzK8,bddxFT/


Please don't take my comment as advice towards a threadripper I only got it cause I'm putting 3 gpus and an nvme in there, the pc will double as an ubuntu deep learning machine and I needed the extra threads for that. Just focus on clock speed, either intel or amd is fine but no need to buy a threadripper for music at all


----------



## dmsaunders (Aug 16, 2018)

kitekrazy said:


> or go with onboard graphics...Not a fan of AMD cards because of their power consumption.



Are onboard graphics sufficient? Intel UHD Graphics 630 on the i7 for instance?

I'm running 3 monitors and need to ensure I have the right connections (currently running them off 2x mini displayports and 1x DVI)


----------



## starise (Aug 16, 2018)

@Nao Gam I have no experience with "hackintoshes" so I'm probably ill advised to comment on the pros/cons of them. I'm glad you found something that is presently working well for you. No feelings either way on this other than I usually err on the side of safety even if it's only an illusion. At least I attempted to be safe  It has usually worked for me though. I've never opened the top of a fuel truck and struck a match to see how much gas was in there.

dmsaunders I can't see the link to the chart. Terms are easily confused. There's a difference between multithreading and hyperthreading. My main daw CbB uses takes advantage of both I think. My 6 core cpu shows 12 cores in CbB. That program has plugin load distribution built into it.


----------



## dmsaunders (Aug 16, 2018)

Thanks all. My two biggest queries right now are graphics card and whether it'll hook up my 3 existing monitors, and...

FIREWIRE - do I have to purchase an internal card to connect my Firewire UAD equipment? I can't see any options on this particular site to add this feature

The Firewire expansion cards I've found online range from fairly cheap to, well, not. As I've always used Mac, F/W has always been built in.

Is this something I can cheap out on, or absolutely not?


----------



## kitekrazy (Aug 16, 2018)

dmsaunders said:


> So I was a little confused by this side-by-side comparison chart I linked above (link again below) - as it seems to have 'Simultaneous Multithreading' twice in the columns....one is empty for AMD, the other simply says 'Yes'.
> 
> Anyhow - does anyone have experience with the Threadripper for audio work? 12 cores at 3.5GHz would be fairly tasty if indeed it's well suited



I seen a post on another forum where the person is using it more for video rendering. I've built plenty of AMD rigs for budget reasons but if there's a $50 price difference I'd still go Intel because I know it will work.


----------

