# Proximity VST



## Divico (Jun 19, 2018)

Hey,

I realized many of you use this great VST. How about sharing your workflow with it.
I am using it on my busses before sending audio to my reverbs.
Settings like in the image below with the fader set for each group respectively.
The original distance has quite an impact on what it does and I overlooked it before.


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## WindcryMusic (Jun 19, 2018)

I haven't even started using it yet, beyond testing it, going "Wow, where have you been all my life!" and then adding it to all of the channel strips in my current template (which is still under construction). But my plan for it is to use it to slightly "push back" certain parts of the orchestra, especially the brass and percussion ... basically all the folks that sit in the back row. Based upon my testing, I don't think I'll ever need to push back any sections more than 6 meters or so, tops ... the effect of just that much is already dramatic enough to accomplish my goal (which is to have it not sound like the entire orchestra is sitting right in the listener's lap).

I don't see myself using the modulation section at all, and probably not the true delay/gain options either.


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## asinclaire (Jun 23, 2018)

Wow, thanks for this!


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## Joël Dollié (Jun 23, 2018)

I've tried it a long time ago and just tried again.. Maybe it's a bug but it doesn't seem to be doing anything other than gain. If you play a mono sine wave through it nothing really changes, it's still perfectly mono. I'm really just hearing gain changes.

Weird


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## Divico (Jun 23, 2018)

LionsHeartProd said:


> I've tried it a long time ago and just tried again.. Maybe it's a bug but it doesn't seem to be doing anything other than gain. If you play a mono sine wave through it nothing really changes, it's still perfectly mono. I'm really just hearing gain changes.
> 
> Weird


Strange indeed. What settings are you using?


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## Joël Dollié (Jun 23, 2018)

Divico said:


> Strange indeed. What settings are you using?


I've tried every knob, every setting... Using FL Studio 20 but that shouldn't be a problem... x64 version also, maybe i should try the 32 bit one.

EDIT : same with 32 bit. The modulation works though but that's it, the rest is just gain changes...


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## Divico (Jun 23, 2018)

LionsHeartProd said:


> I've tried every knob, every setting... Using FL Studio 20 but that shouldn't be a problem... x64 version also, maybe i should try the 32 bit one.
> 
> EDIT : same with 32 bit. The modulation works though but that's it, the rest is just gain changes...


Really strange. Try using the original gain. Have you read the manual? Its crucial to understand this plugin.

A mono sine wave is a bad test signal for this plug. The proximity and air absorbtion use an EQ wich does nothing usegul on a sine wave as does the stereo width on a mono signal.


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## Joe_D (Jun 23, 2018)

LionsHeartProd said:


> If you play a mono sine wave through it nothing really changes, it's still perfectly mono. I'm really just hearing gain changes



I think that your test shows expected behavior. You are testing the wrong things by using a sine wave.

The plugin uses delay to create early reflections. But when you mix a sine wave and a fixed delay of that sine wave together, you get...a lower amplitude sine wave. 

If the plugin uses hf attenuation to alter the character of the delayed signal, well, sine waves have no high frequency information, so if the fundamental of the sine wave falls near the sloping cutoff of the filter, then all the filter will do is slightly alter the amplitude of the sine wave. Same idea for highpass filtering.

Further, many spatialization cues are supplied by the attack of a sound; sine waves have no attack. Your brain is amazing at hearing the time difference between signals arriving at your left and right ear. Delayed sine waves (or any other steady-state waveform) essentially have only phase differences, not arrival time differences.

So, to hear the effects of the plugin, use a variety of percussion sounds. You should be able to hear the effect as well as see it in the resultant waveforms (record the output and zoom in on the attack, comparing it to the input).


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## Joël Dollié (Jun 23, 2018)

Divico said:


> Really strange. Try using the original gain. Have you read the manual? Its crucial to understand this plugin.
> 
> A mono sine wave is a bad test signal for this plug. The proximity and air absorbtion use an EQ wich does nothing usegul on a sine wave as does the stereo width on a mono signal.



Well the thing is, it's actually a stereo (dual mono) sine wave in FL studio because there isn't such thing as mono tracks.

But you're right it's a bad test indeed because this plugin seems to be doing some EQ stuff. That's why i couldn't really see any changes lol. It's just that I was expecting to hear a room around the sound..
I just tested with a full track and it does work. I'm not sure how i feel about that because it seems to mostly be EQ. I was expecting to get more of a room effect, like a realistic depth effect. I'm also not a huge fan of the stereo width settings as they sound a bit fake to me.

The early reflections seem to add a quick delay when the fader is down but it's not true early reflections as these would actually turn any "dual mono" signal, like i have, into a stereo signal, and it stays mono. It's a bit misleading when they say it's early reflections.

I'm sure it has its uses but i'm just a little disappointed with it as i was expecting better depth effects.


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## Joël Dollié (Jun 23, 2018)

Joe_D said:


> I think that your test shows expected behavior. You are testing the wrong things by using a sine wave.
> 
> The plugin uses delay to create early reflections. But when you use a fixed delay with a sine wave, you get...a lower amplitude sine wave.
> 
> ...



Yep you're right, i didn't really spend enough time testing and that's why i didn't see any effects (check my post above). I was just expecting actual early reflections like they claimed (which would turn my dual mono sine wave into stereo).. That's why i didn't even look further into it.

Overall i honestly don't see myself using it too much as it messes with the EQ too much without really adding anything too good imho. It would definitely work to simulate the proximity effect for two similarly recorded vocals but i don't see many good uses for anything else such as orchestral instruments.

I want a dev to create a plugin with actual early reflections and depth control so you can simulate tons of different rooms (without a tail) and control the distance. That would be so dope. That's what i thought this plugin would be :/


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## Divico (Jun 23, 2018)

LionsHeartProd said:


> Yep you're right, i didn't really spend enough time testing and that's why i didn't see any effects (check my post above). I was just expecting actual early reflections like they claimed (which would turn my dual mono sine wave into stereo).. That's why i didn't even look further into it.
> 
> Overall i honestly don't see myself using it too much as it messes with the EQ too much without really adding anything too good imho.


It heavily depends on what you are doing. The early reflextions are delays indeed as far as I remember.
I wouldnt see this as a all in one spacing tool. More like a push back thing. VERY IMPORTANT PAY ATTENTION TO THE INITIAL DISTANCE SETTING.

Try it on a brass group.


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## Joël Dollié (Jun 23, 2018)

Divico said:


> It heavily depends on what you are doing. The early reflextions are delays indeed as far as I remember.
> I wouldnt see this as a all in one spacing tool. More like a push back thing. VERY IMPORTANT PAY ATTENTION TO THE INITIAL DISTANCE SETTING.



For sure, but that's the thing, early reflections are a series of delays that actually end up phasing your signal, which is why a signal that passes through true early reflections comes out stereo (with left right unbalances) and actually has natural modulation to it. (from note to note).

From what i could hear, this plugin wasn't doing any of that as my sine wave was staying perfectly mono and i didn't get a sense of space. It does create depth but mostly with EQ.. Their "early reflections" don't affect the left/right correlation of the signal. (and i could only hear one single repeat which isn't how room early reflections work).

I would see this more as a "mic proximity effect" simulator like its name implies, and i guess i was expecting it to be a room simulator, which it isn't.


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## Joël Dollié (Jun 23, 2018)

Divico said:


> Try it on a brass group.



I just did, It's not doing what ER from a reverb plugin do. It's rolling off the high end (most ER's do that with damping so that's good) but it's actually making the sound a bit narrower sounding overall, and the width settings don't sound good and actually make it sound a bit narrower or "fake".

I attached a before/after of what Eventide stereo room does, it's a completely different effect. You can hear it easily with the brass and even more easily with the sine wave example.

It creates an actual feeling of space around the sound thanks to the multiple ER delays (and damping). The reason Proximity doesn't do that is because there isn't several delays close to each other like ER's actually do.

It's like this: before/after/before/after.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/untitled-mp3.14146/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Divico (Jun 23, 2018)

I agree. The ER is not really like the ER of Reverb plugins. Its more about psychoacoustics like dampening and stuff.


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## goalie composer (Jun 23, 2018)

LionsHeartProd said:


> For sure, but that's the thing, early reflections are a series of delays that actually end up phasing your signal, which is why a signal that passes through true early reflections comes out stereo (with left right unbalances) and actually has natural modulation to it. (from note to note).
> 
> From what i could hear, this plugin wasn't doing any of that as my sine wave was staying perfectly mono and i didn't get a sense of space. It does create depth but mostly with EQ.. Their "early reflections" don't affect the left/right correlation of the signal. (and i could only hear one single repeat which isn't how room early reflections work).
> 
> I would see this more as a "mic proximity effect" simulator like its name implies, and i guess i was expecting it to be a room simulator, which it isn't.


I'm curious as to your thoughts on Virtual Sound Stage 2 (https://www.parallax-audio.com)


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## Joël Dollié (Jun 23, 2018)

goalie composer said:


> I'm curious as to your thoughts on Virtual Sound Stage 2 (https://www.parallax-audio.com)



I haven't tried it myself but seen demos. It looks nice on paper but I would tell everyone to be careful because it's not that simple. Libraries are being recorded in very different ways so you can't just assume that what you see on the screen is what you get.. especially panning wise. From what I understand, this plugin takes your instruments and allows you to place them wherever you want.. it also seems to simulate rooms and be like a reverb.

If you use VSL and everything is recorded the same way sure it would make sense and I'm sure it would help the samples out, but otherwise? I feel like people would limit the potential of their mix by looking at the screen instead of listening from where the sound is coming from and i also feel like they would limit the potential of their mix by putting all of their stuff into that one room... Libraries are already recorded in different spaces and I feel like you can make your mix more impressive by "breaking the walls" and not limiting yourself to one space.. I mean, personally, even if I had to work with VSL I would try to make that stuff more exciting with various depth tricks instead of thinking about it "logically".

But I feel like this software would work best with dry ish samples which are all recorded the same, to actually get some consistent results that visually translate well.


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