# Brass Library ... Which one ?



## muziksculp (Apr 26, 2012)

Hi, 

I'm trying to pick one very high-quality *Orchestral Brass library* (price is not an issue), but can't decide on one yet. 

i.e. 

EW-Hollywood Brass, Cinebrass, Project SAM Classic Brass collection, VSL Dimension Brass, or VSL Brass I + Extended, or any other Brass library. 

Which would you pick if you had to choose only one Orch. Brass library today ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## victorv (Apr 26, 2012)

Which one?
Cinebrass.


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## autopilot (Apr 26, 2012)

sample modelling


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## muziksculp (Apr 26, 2012)

autopilot @ Thu Apr 26 said:


> sample modelling



Thanks for the recommendation, but... I'm interested in large sounding section brass ( I'm more after the cinematic/epic brassy sound). 

Sample Modeling Brass are only available as solo instruments (They surely sound amazing), but, are not the kind of big brass sound/section orch. brass I'm seeking.


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## midphase (Apr 26, 2012)

I think the answer depends entirely on your computer set up and if it's powerful enough to run PLAY without a hitch.

If it is, then it's Hollywood Brass all the way.

If it isn't, then it's Cinebrass Pro all the way.

Simple no?


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## windshore (Apr 26, 2012)

Ha! Well, if money is no object, why on earth would you only get 1?

CB and HB have different strengths and weaknesses. Together though, you can totally kick some butt. 

You didn't mention if you're PC or Mac.

HB on Mac is a PITA, but there are sometimes lines that just don't sound that great on CB - or I should say take too much work to sound great? The reverse is true also. CB has great potential for speed and efficiency, and they keep promising a major update to address some shortcomings but.. Geez some of the patches like legato horns just automatically sound great in HB. ... one pass and I'm done.

If you're on Mac, get CB complete and HB diamond and you won't regret it. If you're on PC, I could see a good argument for going with HB and maybe a SM trumpet and bone. (I also love CHH but you're talking specifically orchestral. CHH can actually be good for handling certain mutes which CB and HB don't cover.)

I'm sure this thread will devolve into heated debate on these but I'm on Mac and use CB, HB and SM and am very glad I have all. If cost isn't a factor... you can have all of these for what we used to have to pay for an 8 voice sampler.


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## muziksculp (Apr 26, 2012)

midphase @ Thu Apr 26 said:


> I think the answer depends entirely on your computer set up and if it's powerful enough to run PLAY without a hitch.
> 
> If it is, then it's Hollywood Brass all the way.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the feedback midphase. 

What does Hollywood Brass offer that Cinebrass Pro does not ? 

I have no issues running demanding libraries such as PLAY, lots of computer power here. So, my decision will come down to the Quality/Feature/Flexibility..etc. of the Brass library.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Apr 26, 2012)

muziksculp @ Thu Apr 26 said:


> Thanks for the recommendation, but... I'm interested in large sounding section brass ( I'm more after the cinematic/epic brassy sound).



larger than this?


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## antoniopandrade (Apr 26, 2012)

From what I've heard and seen from my own and my composer friend's experience:

HB (which I own) is great. You get an enormous amount of possibilities with different ensemble sizes, articulations and mic positions (if you get diamond). The sound is NOT out of the box, but is just about. Just send it to your favorite big hall reverb and TADA! Big, badass orchestral brass.

Cinebrass Pro (which I do not own) seems to have a more out of the box sound (for better or worse), and is lighter on resources (if only because it's a kontakt library). You do get less flexibility with articulations and ensemble sizes, though.

In my opinion, if you can, get both. They complement each other quite well (and eventually I purchase CBPro as well). I love the sound of the 3 trumpet legato in HB, but I'm not so crazy about how the trombones sound, whereas I've heard the CBPro trombones patch and it sounds amazing! 

Both have their strength, depends on what you need!


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## Maestro77 (Apr 26, 2012)

If you're considering CineBrass Pro you're going to need CineBrass as well. The Pro library doesn't include what's in the original, it simply adds additional patches. Together they give you pretty much everything you need but if you were to get only one I'd recommend the old fashioned CineBrass - more of the basics in that one.


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## Leandro Gardini (Apr 26, 2012)

I am, as usual, at the other side of the majority  . If you want to "play" any articulations in your own way and get any mic position go for WIVI. It´s also light for the ram and CPU!!!


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## muziksculp (Apr 26, 2012)

Hello again, and many Thanks to all the helpful feedback/recommendations and comments.

I'm in the process of setting up my new home-studio, my system is more PC based, but I also have a Mac Pro 8 core version 2,1 (3.0 Ghz. , 24 GB RAM, 3 internal 1TB SATA HDs, and one SSD for audio projects) still running nice and smooth after 4 years. The PCs and Mac Pro will be networked via VE-Pro 2. I use Cubase 6 as my main DAW, on PC/Windows 7.



My PCs are all custom built by 'VisionDaw' ,and 'PC Audio Labs' , I have a total of (4 PCs), lots of CPU power, each has 24 GB RAM, Raided SSD and SATA drives. (Yes, They cost me a little fortune :lol: )

I also have access to high-end HW reverb/Multi-Effects. Along with VST effects Plug-ins. So customizing the spacial element in my mixes is not an issue. 

*@ Gabriel Oliveira *

Thanks for the Youtube demo. Nice Epic sounding brass in that Youtube clip, but I'm guessing the demo took some time to produce, given that they are solo brass instruments, unless Sample Modeling offers ensemble Brass, which I am not aware of. 

I would eventually get some of SM's Brass instruments, especially their trumpet, but for now, I need out of the box large Brass Ensemble sounds. So, EW-HB and Cinebrass might be more suitable for my needs. Would love to have them work on Oboe, Flute, English Horn, and then some Strings. 

*@ antoniopandrade* and *@ windshore
*

Thanks for your valuable feedback. I could go with both EW-HB and Cinebrass Pro, but I would like to begin with only one Brass library, and get to know it very well, just in case it can deliver most of my brass requirements. So, I would eventually get both, but which one would be first is the tougher question to answer. 

*@ midphase,
*
You seem to suggest going with EW-HB is a good choice for what I'm looking for. and if needed, I could add Cinebrass Pro later on, depending on how satisfied I am with EW-HB. Thanks for your helpful feedback. 

By the way, I wonder how does the older Project Sam 'Classic Orch. Brass' library compare to the newer Orch. Brass libraries such as 'EW-HB, 'Cinebrass', and possibly other newer brass libraries, Let's not forget, that... Once upon a time, Project Sam Brass was one of the most sought after Brass libraries. Does it still hold some weight, or are the newer libraries a big step ahead in terms of their sonic characteristics ? (I'm curious to know).

I also find it interesting that so far, nobody has recommended VSL Brass/ VSL Dimension Brass. (I wonder why ? ) 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Apr 26, 2012)

Maestro77 @ Thu Apr 26 said:


> If you're considering CineBrass Pro you're going to need CineBrass as well. The Pro library doesn't include what's in the original, it simply adds additional patches. Together they give you pretty much everything you need but if you were to get only one I'd recommend the old fashioned CineBrass - more of the basics in that one.



Thanks, I did not check Cinebrass library details yet, so I'm glad you clarified that the Cinebrass Pro version is an add-on to the Cinebrass version.


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## muziksculp (Apr 26, 2012)

leogardini @ Thu Apr 26 said:


> I am, as usual, at the other side of the majority  . If you want to "play" any articulations in your own way and get any mic position go for WIVI. It´s also light for the ram and CPU!!!



Thanks, I will check it out, and see how I feel about what it offers, and it's sonic capabilities.


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## Arbee (Apr 26, 2012)

It's a shame I'm not far enough into my new set up yet to post something but, if you factor in MIR PRO, then VSL Dimension Brass + SE/Plus Brass or full Brass DVD libraries + VI Pro 2 would IMHO be a very serious contender.


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## midphase (Apr 26, 2012)

muziksculp @ Thu Apr 26 said:


> I also find it interesting that so far, nobody has recommended VSL Brass/ VSL Dimension Brass. (I wonder why ? )



That should tell you something.

Hats off to the VSL team for doing what they do...but in recent years they seem to have put more resources into their software than in their sample libraries.


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## noiseboyuk (Apr 26, 2012)

muziksculp @ Fri Apr 27 said:


> By the way, I wonder how does the older Project Sam 'Classic Orch. Brass' library compare to the newer Orch. Brass libraries such as 'EW-HB, 'Cinebrass', and possibly other newer brass libraries, Let's not forget, that... Once upon a time, Project Sam Brass was one of the most sought after Brass libraries. Does it still hold some weight, or are the newer libraries a big step ahead in terms of their sonic characteristics ? (I'm curious to know).



I don't have OBC, but sonically it's still very well thought off. Essentially the issue is - no legatos.


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## MikeH (Apr 26, 2012)

WIVI (Wallander) is my absolute go-to for brass and woodwinds. I never want to go back to 'samples' again. There is unlimited potential for tweaking with WIVI pro player. _Unlimited_. Any aspect of an instrument you want tweaked, you can do it. And the best part is, I just play in the individual lines...no more keyswitches, banks, or stitching together samples. 

Here's a mockup of the opening from Revenge of the Sith that I did for fun a few weeks ago. 

All lines are played in individually...no grouped instruments. 

4 horns
3 trumpets
3 Trombones
1 Bass Trombone
1 Tuba

EastWest SPACES reverb

http://www.officialmichaelhuey.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/sith_example1.mp3


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## Daryl (Apr 27, 2012)

I used to use VSL Brass, and I don't think that the newer libraries are any better. However, I've now mostly moved over to Sample Modeling Brass, and can now do things that none of the old fashioned sample libraries can do.

However, as had been said many times before, if your performance skills are not good, you would need to tweak SM to get it to sound good, and even then you still need to know a lot about performance. With the traditional sample libraries performance is built in, so all you have to do is stitch the articulations together. Of course this is why doing anything subtle is really hard, whereas just making noise is fairly easy. :wink: 

D


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## Tanuj Tiku (Apr 27, 2012)

I have to agree with Daryl.


There is nothing like Sample Modeling. I have the entire VSL Brass libraries but you cant do anything like SM with that. 

However, like he said, you do need to know a lot about brass performance in general and then of course programming SM. I am a complete rookie right now. I just bought it. 

But, hopefully I will learn along the way and write better orchestral music someday.


The reverb and positioning if set once in your template in an intelligent manner, will allow you to straight get to programming without worrying too much about the sound and the mix. I run a on-the-fly mix bus in my template where I can control the dry, wet and combine bus signal at any given point of time of any section of the orchestra. 

And once you know how SM works, I feel you can achieve wonders. It sounds the most realistic I feel.

Other brass libraries may sound big at times (SM can too) but they also sound unrealistic a lot of times.

If you just want to play Inception style chords - sure Epic Horns and Fanfare trumpets are great and I have used them well in this writing style. Probably dont need SM for this but if you are writing real orchestral music then SM is the best. 

And I think more often we need something like SM. 


Tanuj.


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## organix (Apr 27, 2012)

Go for Hollywood Brass. It's the most complete, most flexible and powerful brass library on markt. 

CineBrass is good too. Sounds also very well, is easy to use and it's more intuitive to play. But CB isn't as flexible and complete as HB. HB contains more articulations, more samples which gives you more individually control and greater flexibility overall. 

Markus


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## Daniel (Apr 27, 2012)

I love my Orchestral Brass Classic from ProjectSam. I hope someday the upgrade will release a new articulation. 

Best,


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Apr 27, 2012)

muziksculp @ Fri Apr 27 said:


> I need out of the box large Brass Ensemble sounds. So, EW-HB and Cinebrass might be more suitable for my needs.



indeed...


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 27, 2012)

vibrato @ Fri Apr 27 said:


> I have to agree with Daryl.
> 
> 
> There is nothing like Sample Modeling. I have the entire VSL Brass libraries but you cant do anything like SM with that.
> ...



Realistic, shmealistic, Hollywood Brass sounds great right out of the box, and great sound should be what you are after, since NO brass sample based composition ever sounds really real. None, nada, zippo., etc.

To be fair, CineBrass also sounds great in its demos to my ears, just different.


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## choc0thrax (Apr 27, 2012)

Judging by demos I've always felt that HB was the top brass library. It's just PLAY and those system requirements that are scary.

I remember being impressed by the brass in this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5-YrwTR3zY&list=UUVp9mxsL4ALPxBHqMh2UUzg&hd=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5-YrwTR ... 2UUzg&amp;hd=1)


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## muziksculp (Apr 27, 2012)

Hello, and Thanks once again for all the valuable feedback.

*@ Daryl* and *@vibrato*

Thanks for your input regarding Sample Modeling Brass. I am a big fan of the Sample Modeling products, (although I have non of them at this time), but I am planning to get some of their fantastic solo Brass instruments in the future. For my current Brass needs, I feel I need more out of the box large brass sounds. Which EW-HB and Cinebrass seem to cater for. 

*@ EastWest Lurker* 

Thanks for the feedback. 

Yes, EW-HB seems to offer what I need to get those Epic sounding Brass sections, which is exactly what I'm interested in, especially for my first Brass library. I can always add more in the future, but since I want to start out with one Brass library, I feel EW-HB will be my choice. 

*@choc0thrax*

Thanks for the Youtube link to this amazingly epic piece of orchestral work, I'm also very impressed with EW-HB. Sounds realistic enough for my needs.

*@Daniel*

Thanks for recommending EW-HB, and Yes, this looks like my best option. 

Conclusion :

I will be getting EW-HB as my first Large Brass Library, mainly because it offers that big Hollywood Brass sound, which is the type of Brass sounds I would like to have first in my Sample Library collection, I will eventually add some of the fantastic sounding Sample Modeling Brass instruments, I'm not sure if I need CineBrass at this point, I would have to work with EW-HB, and see if it can offer most of my Epic sounding Brass sounds.

** My Final Decision : EW Hollywood Brass o=< *

Thank You,

Muziksculp


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Apr 27, 2012)

muziksculp @ Fri Apr 27 said:


> ** My Final Decision : EW Hollywood Brass o=< *
> 
> Thank You,
> 
> Muziksculp



nice choice, Tarek


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## muziksculp (Apr 27, 2012)

Gabriel Oliveira @ Fri Apr 27 said:


> muziksculp @ Fri Apr 27 said:
> 
> 
> > ** My Final Decision : EW Hollywood Brass o=< *
> ...



Thanks Gabriel  

I also think that I qualify for the 30% discount on EW-HB, since I have just recently purchased EW-HStrings (Plat.) , hopefully I will have my new studio all setup, and ready for production by the end of May. I will provide more info. on how I like EW-HB, and many other Sample Libraries, and finally post some audio demos of how they work together. Lots of work ahead. 

Cheers,
Tarek/Muziksculp o-[][]-o


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## rgames (Apr 27, 2012)

I own CB (complete), HB diamond, and VSL brass.

Overall I prefer the sound of CB and HB (especially f/ff) but VSL is my go-to library because it's the least problematic (actually, I prefer the sound of the VSL solo instruments over the HB/CB solo instruments). CB and HB have programming issues and they can be real buzz killers if you're stuck with one of the duds in the library.

In the end, the ease of use tends to outweigh the sound (for me) because I can get close with EQ and reverb/positioning.

I tend to start with VSL then layer CB/HB when I'm not getting the sound I want. Most of my tracks wind up something like 50% VSL and the other 50% HB/CB.

rgames


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## muziksculp (Apr 27, 2012)

rgames @ Fri Apr 27 said:


> I own CB (complete), HB diamond, and VSL brass.
> 
> Overall I prefer the sound of CB and HB (especially f/ff) but VSL is my go-to library because it's the least problematic (actually, I prefer the sound of the VSL solo instruments over the HB/CB solo instruments). CB and HB have programming issues and they can be real buzz killers if you're stuck with one of the duds in the library.
> 
> ...



Hi rgames,

That's interesting ! So, which VSL Brass are you using ? Their full DVD Brass libraries ? or SE Brass ? or VSL Dimension-Brass ? or a combination of these. 

I have heard read quite a bit of mixed feedback regarding VSL Brass, and especially their latest VSL Dimension-Brass, some love it, some hate it, so it is not easy to evaluate it, but at the end of the day, what makes a difference is how these libraries sound in a mix, and if they can provide what you are after, then that's what counts. 

So far to my ears, VSL Brass has not impressed me. (evaluated via listening to various audio demos composed by various users, and VSL), but I would still look into VSL Brass in the future. For now... It's EW-HB o=< 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## ed buller (Apr 27, 2012)

i don't think you can get what you need out of one library. For me VSL dimension Brass and Cinebrass pro are great

e


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## muziksculp (Apr 27, 2012)

ed buller @ Fri Apr 27 said:


> i don't think you can get what you need out of one library. For me VSL dimension Brass and Cinebrass pro are great
> 
> e



Hi ed,

I agree that it is not likely that one library will provide all my Brass requirements.

EW-HB will be my first large Brass library, I will eventually get to complement it with either VSL Brass, or possibly other options. I need to first see what EW-HB falls short on, and based on that I can complement it with additional Br.Libraries. 

What would you say is the primary strength of VSL-Dim. Brass ? As I mentioned above, this, and the other VSL brass libraries seems to click with some users, but in general VSL Brass libraries have not been winning a lot popularity awards on this, and other forums :lol:


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## Arbee (Apr 27, 2012)

IMO the strengths of VSL Dimension Brass are the "Dimension" divisi capabilities and the integration with VSL software like VI Pro 2 and MIR PRO. It's not an "out of the box" sound and this seems to be the main issue folk have with VSL in general.

I have SM instruments and truly love them but, like VSL, they need work to put it in a room.

For my "core" libraries I really like the VSL/SM dry sample philosophy, some don't. The more I learn about VI Pro 2, Vienna Suite and MIR PRO, the less I find myself going elsewhere.


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## muziksculp (Apr 27, 2012)

Arbee @ Fri Apr 27 said:


> IMO the strengths of VSL Dimension Brass are the "Dimension" divisi capabilities and the integration with VSL software like VI Pro 2 and MIR PRO. It's not an "out of the box" sound and this seems to be the main issue folk have with VSL in general.
> 
> I have SM instruments and truly love them but, like VSL, they need work to put it in a room.
> 
> For my "core" libraries I really like the VSL/SM dry sample philosophy, some don't. The more I learn about VI Pro 2, Vienna Suite and MIR PRO, the less I find myself going elsewhere.



Thanks for the feedback.

I can see how having so many components to deal with can deter some from using these kind of tools (VSL), but if the results are very rewarding, then I see where you are coming from. The issue is that it is not easy to test a system like this, (VSL, VI Pro 2, MIR Pro, Vienna Suite, ...etc) and eventually get the results one is expecting. Plus, the time, and cost involved. Having said so, maybe if I heard some jaw dropping audio demos of VSL-Brass produced with these tools, I would be quite convinced that it is worth putting in the investment of purchasing, learning, and using these tools, but so far, it has not happened.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Cinesamples (Apr 27, 2012)

As a composer: get them all!
As a developer: CineBrass Bundle


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## muziksculp (Apr 27, 2012)

CineSamples @ Fri Apr 27 said:


> As a composer: get them all!
> As a developer: CineBrass Bundle



Don't worry... 'CineBrass Bundle' is very tempting, and sounds like another great Brass library to own. :mrgreen: 

I'm guessing it will most likely be my second Brass Library purchase after I get well acquainted with EW-HB.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## rgames (Apr 28, 2012)

muziksculp @ Fri Apr 27 said:


> That's interesting ! So, which VSL Brass are you using ? Their full DVD Brass libraries ? or SE Brass ? or VSL Dimension-Brass ? or a combination of these.


I'm using the SE brass (both libraries, basic and extended or whatever they're called).

The one part that really bugs me on the VSL brass is the f/ff layer: they get strident and thin. Exception is epic horns which are very nice.

Also, VSL and the VI player integrate into my workflow much better than HB or CB, especially CB. Expression maps with the VI player are absolutely brilliant. I don't "play in" very much - I tend to play in ideas then spend most of my time working in the MIDI editor and copying/pasting lines across different instruments. With expression maps in Cubase it's a breeze but I haven't found a good way to do that with CB. HB is a bit problematic in that regard, as well, but workable.

So, again, it comes back to workflow. For the way I work, VSL brass get the ideas down with much less hassle. But I do like the way CB and HB sound, I just spend too much time working around bugs in the library.

They all have warts. Just different warts.

Here's my dream library for any section: HB/CB sound playing in the VSL VI and programmed with VSL attention to detail. It makes sense: VSL clearly have a focus on software these days (are they recording anything new?). So why not just become the programmer/software developer for the other libraries? Play is a bear and Kontakt is great but let's face it: it can't compare to the VI player for orchestral sample libraries. Not anywhere close...

rgames


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## Casey Edwards (Apr 28, 2012)

I'm going to have to chime in here since I went through my own Brass dilemma. First off I'll say I input 99.9% of my MIDI data live. If anyone else does then you'll understand why the playability of a library is key.

First off, as Mike said, "as a composer" get them all. The "AS A COMPOSER" part is important, especially if you are a working professional trying to sell of the sound of a mockup! Having variation in sound/players really brings a new life to mockups.

I use both Hollywood Brass Gold and CineBrass Core+PRO. I always wondered to myself why so many people on here have so many duplicate libraries (Like LASS alongside HS), but now I know. Some times someone elses library does it better or simply the variation in sound gives it a new life. I would never want to live without the HB 6 Horn legato patch or the wonderful section size variations they offer. NOR would I want to live without CB's wonderful space and absolutely spot on sound of trombone staccatissimos! Not to forget that buttery and warm sound of the v1.0 of the CB Core solo FH.

I must also say, that next to these two libraries, I run Sample Modeling on the occasion as well because they offer something for solo instruments that neither of those libraries can touch. Just know what you want and what kind of music you want to write and buy your product. Either HB or CB will get the job done, but I'm glad I don't have to worry about choosing between them anymore!


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 28, 2012)

Casey Edwards @ Sat Apr 28 said:


> First off, as Mike said, "as a composer" get them all. The "AS A COMPOSER" part is important, especially if you are a working professional trying to sell of the sound of a mockup! Having variation in sound/players really brings a new life to mockups.



Yes and no. The danger is with deep libraries, and I have been guilty of this myself, is that you don't spend the time to _really_ learn what you can do well and cannot do well with one of them alone. There is an argument to be made that it makes sense to buy one complex one and force yourself to use only that for a while so that you have an accurate sense of just how far it will take you before you reach for that credit card to get the next one.

With ALL these libraries a really skilled user will get better results with even only one than a not so skilled user will get with 5 of them.


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## Casey Edwards (Apr 28, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Apr 28 said:


> Casey Edwards @ Sat Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > First off, as Mike said, "as a composer" get them all. The "AS A COMPOSER" part is important, especially if you are a working professional trying to sell of the sound of a mockup! Having variation in sound/players really brings a new life to mockups.
> ...



I can totally agree with this. I'm not a "half-ass" user myself though, so I was running off that assumption. I did state at the end, you could use either HB OR CB and pretty much be set. I enjoy having both, because one thing you can't fake on the fly is a change in tone and separate player nuances that are captured in the samples. HB and CB blend so well together too, so there isn't really anything to labor over to make them work alongside each other.


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## jamwerks (Apr 28, 2012)

Casey Edwards @ Sat Apr 28 said:


> HB and CB blend so well together



Always wondered about this, and happy to hear it can work. Guess I'll be buying Cinebrass Pro one of these days !


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## dannthr (Apr 28, 2012)

If price is truly no issue, then you get them all.


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## IFM (Apr 28, 2012)

One thing to think about is I can play most of my CB lines in real time because it is programmed to be used that way. HB will be much less so.


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## Arbee (Apr 28, 2012)

+1 to Jay on this. I see the analogy in business software all the time. IT departments and users get stale with a piece of software and buy the "latest and greatest" only to find their old software does exactly what they need. They just got bored with it and didn't dig deep enough into it.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 28, 2012)

Dragonwind @ Sat Apr 28 said:


> One thing to think about is I can play most of my CB lines in real time because it is programmed to be used that way. HB will be much less so.



HB is also well set up to be performed in real time.


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## muziksculp (Apr 28, 2012)

rgames @ Sat Apr 28 said:


> Here's my dream library for any section: HB/CB sound playing in the VSL VI and programmed with VSL attention to detail. It makes sense: VSL clearly have a focus on software these days (are they recording anything new?). So why not just become the programmer/software developer for the other libraries? Play is a bear and Kontakt is great but let's face it: it can't compare to the VI player for orchestral sample libraries. Not anywhere close...
> 
> rgames



imho. VSL needs to go back to improve their sample library development, improve their content. Yes, they have spent a lot of their resources into non-sample content development, mostly software like MIR Pro, MIR 24, VIPro2, VEPro 5, Vienna Suite, ....
Which was a big task for them, but at the expense of New (improved) Sample Library content. (i.e. Better Strings & Brass). This is what I feel they should be focusing on at this time, and hopefully release their next generation Strings, Brass, and Woodwinds libraries. 

I also wish they would open up their instrument player 'VI Pro 2' to third-party sample developers, It is a big step ahead of everything else on the market, but that might never happen, since it's their key application to keep them ahead of the competition.

Could you imagine, EW-HB, EW-HS, Cinebrass Pro, Cinematic Strings, Albion 2, ..etc etc. running in VI-Pro 2 instead of Kontakt or PLAY ! It would be a different world :mrgreen: 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## koolkeys (Apr 28, 2012)

Arbee @ Sat Apr 28 said:


> +1 to Jay on this. I see the analogy in business software all the time. IT departments and users get stale with a piece of software and buy the "latest and greatest" only to find their old software does exactly what they need. They just got bored with it and didn't dig deep enough into it.


I think many times though, it's not about finding a library that does MORE than your previous one. It's about finding a fresh approach, a new sound to inspire you, or whatever. It's totally worth having extra libraries and applications if not just for this reason alone: change of pace.

It's why I use multiple audio hosts, for instance. I know I can do everything I need in one or the other, but they each provide a different way of working that will come in handy when I get stale for ideas.

Brent


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## chimuelo (Apr 28, 2012)

Jay speaks wise words. 
THis is also why I prefer buying from developers with Lite versions, and once learned and happy have an upgrade path.
LASS was my first Orchestral buy since I got screwed by spending thousands in Giga libraries, it was a big step up from Giga and it was a Lite version. LASS 2.0 was then released w/ NCW, another huge leap for a small price.
It's why when I get Orchestral Brass it will be Cinesamples Core, then I can upgrade later.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 28, 2012)

If a composer repeatedly needs a new library to give himself inspiration when composing, there is a hole in that composer that sooner or later will catch up with him.

Just my opinion, of course.


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## choc0thrax (Apr 28, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Apr 28 said:


> If a composer repeatedly needs a new library to give himself inspiration when composing, there is a hole in that composer that sooner or later will catch up with him.
> 
> Just my opinion, of course.



I used to do this. I once plugged my hole with the entire VSL symphonic cube. Couldn't compose for weeks after that.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 28, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Sat Apr 28 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > If a composer repeatedly needs a new library to give himself inspiration when composing, there is a hole in that composer that sooner or later will catch up with him.
> ...



Oh, I was not aware that you ever actually compose something instead of just making wisecracks. :lol:


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## choc0thrax (Apr 28, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Apr 28 said:


> choc0thrax @ Sat Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Sat Apr 28 said:
> ...



Oh I don't. After those weeks ended where I couldn't compose I then willingly decided not to compose anything ever.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 28, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Sat Apr 28 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > choc0thrax @ Sat Apr 28 said:
> ...



Ah, I see


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## koolkeys (Apr 28, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Apr 28 said:


> If a composer repeatedly needs a new library to give himself inspiration when composing, there is a hole in that composer that sooner or later will catch up with him.
> 
> Just my opinion, of course.


You are obviously missing my point though. I never said that any composer needs a new library repeatedly for inspiration, did I? That's not the scenario I talked about. I just said that sometimes, having different sounds can lead to different inspirations. Ever walked into a new auditorium and played a piano you've never touched before, and the sound of it brought inspiration alone? This happens all the time, and it has nothing to do with the talent of the player or any "holes" in the composer as you seem to imply. Every picked up a new guitar in a store, and it just instantly clicked with you and brought a new perspective to old ideas? 

What I'm talking about has nothing to do with talent. It's why thousands of composers don't just work with one string library, or one piano, or one of whatever else is around. There isn't a single brass library that will fill every hole or work in every situation. And we ALL get writer's block at times. Anyone who says they don't is lying. So having different sounds sitting around for different times and purposes is not only normal, it's probably more common than not.

So I don't know if perhaps you just think that HB is all that anyone will need, or if you're just being silly, or if you just missed my point. But maybe it's more clear now?

Brent


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## chimuelo (Apr 29, 2012)

Jay was referring to those amongst us who suffer from 3PDS, commonly known in medical circles as 3rd Party Developers Syndrome.
Symptoms are having several libraries of the same instrument, 10,000+ posts in forums, and more severe cases are similar to Government trained sleeper assasins who have dozens of copies of Catcher In The Rye.
I suffer in a similar way with SM57 mics. When I see one I have to buy it, and I'm OK, but then when I don't see one, I have to go and find one on ebay..just to buy it.
I have one under my bed, some in the refrigerator and freezer, each Anvil case has one.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 29, 2012)

koolkeys @ Sat Apr 28 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > If a composer repeatedly needs a new library to give himself inspiration when composing, there is a hole in that composer that sooner or later will catch up with him.
> ...



It has nothing to do with HB or any other library. It is about needing artificial stimuli, like new libraries or multiple hosts to avoid "getting stale". I work with multiple libraries just like everyone else but if you took them all away but one I could continue to write decently and with enthusiasm. And playing a great piano inspires me equally if I have played it 30 times or 1 time.

Composers who are trained learn to write daily when they are studying. How good the day's output is may very but because of my training I have never had a day of "writer's block". I can always write _something_. How good it will be may be in the judgement of he listener but it will work as a piece of music. Music is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration.

But whatever works for you is fine with me. I still recommend people start with 1 deep library, whether it be i.e. HB or the CineBrass bundle, and work with it extensively before they buy a second. I think the "buy them all" idea is fine but not all at once.


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## koolkeys (Apr 29, 2012)

Never mind then. Honestly, I think you are still missing the point. I respect your opinion, and it's nothing personal obviously. But I do think you have still missed the point. I do agree that it's worth getting to know a library before rushing to "buy them all", but what I'm saying has nothing to do with buying a new library just because you think the old one hasn't been fully learned.

Brent


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 29, 2012)

koolkeys @ Sun Apr 29 said:


> Never mind then. Honestly, I think you are still missing the point. I respect your opinion, and it's nothing personal obviously. But I do think you have still missed the point. I do agree that it's worth getting to know a library before rushing to "buy them all", but what I'm saying has nothing to do with buying a new library just because you think the old one hasn't been fully learned.
> 
> Brent



Of course, Brent, and I respect yours so it is not personal at all.

Sorry if I am being dense here but I thought your point had to do with getting new libraries to help provide inspiration and I think that (and using multiple DAWS) is a poor method and a trap ultimately.


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## snattack (Apr 29, 2012)

I was scared off by Hollywood Strings (which I own) because is so very complex, with an endless amount of patches in different variations, so I bought CineBrass bundle, and I like it, especially that is so easy to use.

The CB Pro have some trouble with the staccatos sounding to loose in my oppinion, which results in problems with repeated notes (i.e. fanfares, etc), this works much better in CB core for some reason (which have shorter staccatos).

I also have VSL SE+, and I really do not fancy the brass in VSL, neither their larges bundles or the Dimension Brass. It sounds far to "synthy" for my taste, even in their demos.

Best,
A


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## koolkeys (Apr 29, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Apr 29 said:


> koolkeys @ Sun Apr 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Never mind then. Honestly, I think you are still missing the point. I respect your opinion, and it's nothing personal obviously. But I do think you have still missed the point. I do agree that it's worth getting to know a library before rushing to "buy them all", but what I'm saying has nothing to do with buying a new library just because you think the old one hasn't been fully learned.
> ...


Not a trap, just different workflows. It comes down to how you write. Some people only write with notation first. Others sit down and play parts as they come up with them. With a DAW, it's a world of difference between something like Cubase and Ableton Live. One can provide an extra spark to get you writing outside of your 'normal' style, or whatever.

While I have no doubt that HB is a fantastic library, and hey, I wouldn't mind getting a chance to use it myself, it's not about learning a library fully. Just assume, for the sake of conversation, that when I talk about inspiration I'm talking about using two or three tools that you already know very well. Sometimes, the sound of one just won't fit, and sometimes, the very sound of a library, or the way it plays, can lead to new ideas. Maybe not for everyone, depending on their own workflow. But it absolutely can and does happen.

I've played the piano for 23 years. Sure, I can sit down at ANY piano and write. But I have walked into an auditorium with an upright piano and the instrument inspired me. It has nothing to do with talent level. 

I'm definitely not explaining my point as clear as I could be, so maybe it's just lost in translation. All the best regardless, and maybe one day, I'll get to play with HB and never want to go back, haha!(I know this isn't about HB, but just throwing that in)

Brent


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 29, 2012)

koolkeys @ Sun Apr 29 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun Apr 29 said:
> 
> 
> > koolkeys @ Sun Apr 29 said:
> ...



When you depend on externals rather than internals for inspiration, it IS a trap IMHO. We will probably just have to agree to disagree.


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## Lex (Apr 29, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Apr 29 said:


> Composers who are trained learn to write daily when they are studying. How good the day's output is may very but because of my training I have never had a day of "writer's block". I can always write _something_. How good it will be may be in the judgement of he listener but it will work as a piece of music. Music is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration.



Thanks Mr. Asher...this finally demystifies for me, in such a clear way, certain aspects of how some of the composers work. I often wondered about this.

alex


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## germancomponist (Apr 29, 2012)

The best idea is worthless if you do not know how you can implement it. This is the truth! Yes, no?


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## Niah (Apr 29, 2012)

muziksculp,

If you have the funds buy every library you feel sounds good to you. You will have all the time in the world to explore them.

No library is the same and don't think a new library replaces the old ones and vice-versa.

The most common problem I see in this forum when certain folks ask others to decide for them what they should buy is that they don't seem to see the differences between brass libraries, or string libs, perc etc...I don't know if this is the result of not being acquainted enough with the technology or not spending enough time with the information provided by the devs. Most importantly they don't seem to know what they want or what they need. 

So I say work on that first. Sometimes you just need to take the plunge and invest money before getting and idea what is essential to you and what is superfluous. Hands on approach and learn by doing.

This is a huge problem of course and not a lot of people have the luxury that some here have. Example: making enough money, receiving products for free, getting to try products "in person" before buying, etc...

As midphase has said in another thread these products are not refundable and sometimes you don't know if have made a good decision or not until you get them.

Bottom line, I'm afraid following your own instincts is the ticket. Most people here are going to advise you according to their musical goals/needs and working methods that might not meet your own.


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## germancomponist (Apr 29, 2012)

Niah @ Sun Apr 29 said:


> No library is the same and don't think a new library replaces the old ones and vice-versa.



+1


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## koolkeys (Apr 29, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Apr 29 said:


> koolkeys @ Sun Apr 29 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Sun Apr 29 said:
> ...


I did not say anything about DEPENDING on externals. As I said, I can sit down at any piano and write. But some pianos inspire a different mood, they play different, they work in different themes, etc. 

Never was this about depending on extra libraries to be able to write. It is only about having a change of pace, or a different sound for different styles of writing. 

I don't know why people seem to think I'm talking about something that equals a talent deficiency or anything wrong with the composer. 

No, it's not a trap at all. It's not about anything being wrong with the composer. Being able to write every day is different than what I'm talking about.

Brent


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## muziksculp (Apr 29, 2012)

imho. as a composer working on various projects that require various brass instruments, with various articulations, section sizes, ..etc. it is usually the project at hand that seems to dictate the requirements. Sometimes the available tools/sample libraries a composer has at his/her disposal are just perfect, and sometimes more than what is required. Other times, this might not be the case. 

I feel that starting out with EW-HB, and discovering what it offers is the best way to eventually figure out what additional libraries will fill the gaps. Having said so, I tend to use brass in a conservative manner, but need more variety in the Strings, and woodwinds, Departments. Most of the time, I use Brass as an embellishing texture for most of my writing. Again, this all depends on the work at hand, taste of the composer, and how the composition will evolve, and take form. 

As a conclusion, I feel it won’t be too far fetched that EW-HB will offer me most of my initial/general brass needs for quite some time, eventually, I will add a few complementing brass libraries that offer more articulations, sonic character, unique features,...etc. depending on my needs, and my overall experience with EW-HB.

Cheers,

Muziksculp


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## skanafchian (May 14, 2012)

Now I'm deliberating between both CB Pro and HB. I haven't seen too many direct comparisons between the two lots though. HB is currently 30% off, bringing the price to actually less than CB Pro.

I'm looking for something that will sit quite easily/nicely in the mix with Cinematic Strings.


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## JohnG (May 14, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ 29th April 2012 said:


> ...I thought your point had to do with getting new libraries to help provide inspiration and I think that (and using multiple DAWS) is a poor method and a trap ultimately.



Henry Mancini implied something different on this. He commented once that he felt it was understandable that a specific library's sounds, or synth sounds, would be important to have / know / use as inspiration, citing his own composing. He said something like, "I had a specific saxophone player in mind when I wrote the theme for 'The Pink Panther.' I don't think using a sampler or synthesizer for inspiration is very different from that."

I use lots of sources of inspiration -- performers, libraries, tapping on my desk -- so I don't see why using libraries the same way is a "poor method," especially if one's final output is going to be electronic. In that circumstance, like Elliott Goldenthal, I find it counterproductive and almost nonsensical to start with anything besides the electronics.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 14, 2012)

JohnG @ Mon May 14 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ 29th April 2012 said:
> 
> 
> > ...I thought your point had to do with getting new libraries to help provide inspiration and I think that (and using multiple DAWS) is a poor method and a trap ultimately.
> ...



Fine but for me, inspiration comes from the stack of bills on my desk and my innate inner drive to compose. Don't get me wrong, I like getting new sounds just like everyone else but if I never got a new one from here on out, it would change little in my composing life.

How did Mozart write so many pieces for essentially the same instruments?

Horses for courses I guess.


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## mpalenik (May 14, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 14 said:


> How did Mozart write so many pieces for essentially the same instruments?



Because they can do 10 times what the virtual instruments do, maybe?


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## EastWest Lurker (May 14, 2012)

mpalenik @ Mon May 14 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > How did Mozart write so many pieces for essentially the same instruments?
> ...



Good point. More like 100 times.


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## Ed (May 14, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 14 said:


> Fine but for me, inspiration comes from the stack of bills on my desk



You only need one word to answer the question of where the inspiration comes from. 

TERROR.

:D


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## NYC Composer (May 14, 2012)

Terror is a good word for it, at least in tight deadline situations.

I wonder why anyone would suggest that there is only one correct way to do _anything_, or that their particular entrenched methodologies are really the better ones.


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## Ed (May 14, 2012)

Yea people get motivation from lots of different places.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 14, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Mon May 14 said:


> Terror is a good word for it, at least in tight deadline situations.
> 
> I wonder why anyone would suggest that there is only one correct way to do _anything_, or that their particular entrenched methodologies are really the better ones.



Well to say" I think my approach is the best" is not the same as saying "I think my approach is the only good one" .

Obviously if we didn't think it was the best approach, we wouldn't approach it that way! :lol: 

But fine I will bow to political correctness and people's sensitivities and write "my approach is best for me and I think perhaps wise for some others" :lol:


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## NYC Composer (May 14, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 14 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Terror is a good word for it, at least in tight deadline situations.
> ...



Or you could just go the other way and start speaking ex cathedra, like, in the third person! "You know, there may be other ways to go about things, but Jay Asher thinks..."


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## EastWest Lurker (May 14, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Mon May 14 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Mon May 14 said:
> ...



Ah, like Woody Allen's mythical bird, the Nurk, which speaks of itself in the third person, i.e. "It's a great little bird, isn't it? "


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## skanafchian (May 15, 2012)

Haha this thread is so off-topic! Amazing.

So...EastWest Lurker...since you've derailed my thread, how about a complementary copy of HWB? You know...for testing purposes


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## EastWest Lurker (May 15, 2012)

skanafchian @ Tue May 15 said:


> Haha this thread is so off-topic! Amazing.
> 
> So...EastWest Lurker...since you've derailed my thread, how about a complementary copy of HWB? You know...for testing purposes



Sure, check your mailbox, it should be there in about seven minutes.


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## skanafchian (May 15, 2012)

*fistpump*!

So...yeah, what is the general consensus and thoughts between CineBrass Pro and HWB? As I mentioned, HWB is actually cheaper with the promotion.

I haven't seen many direct comparisons between the two oddly.


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## Steve Steele (May 22, 2012)

You know, for $250 (199 pounds or less) you can get ProjectSAM Orch Brass Classic. Yes, it's a last-gen lib, but you get solo and ensemble instruments. The horns and bones sound really good, and it's very playable whether you want to play one voice at a time, or do a quick mock-up with a multi of solo instruments. It's a good poor-man's CineBrass.

EW seems really cool and I'd love to try it. Wish they had something on try-sound so i could.. try it

Love the CineSamples people but the full CineBrass package is a bit pricey.


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## Goran (May 23, 2012)

If money were no issue, I would want to have a great sound directly out of the box and want to use the library primarily in the "cinematic" way, HB would be my first choice. If I want a wider range of use, a bigger choice of instruments and want to do lots of finely crafted brass solos, VSL brass is still number one imo. 

Off the subject but it stroke me more times in this thread: one thing I never understood is the notion that VSL strings are "dated". I did some of the strings productions I am most satisfied with with SE orchestral & chamber strings and full package Solo Strings (I don't even own Appassionatas) and am always bewildered when I hear these instruments need "improvement". When I listen to the best productions involving strings done with VSL and compare them with the best productions involving strings done with other libraries, I always have to ask myself - improvement as compared to what?


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## EastWest Lurker (May 23, 2012)

Goran @ Wed May 23 said:


> If money were no issue, I would want to have a great sound directly out of the box and want to use the library primarily in the "cinematic" way, HB would be my first choice. If I want a wider range of use, a bigger choice of instruments and want to do lots of finely crafted brass solos, VSL brass is still number one imo.
> 
> Off the subject but it stroke me more times in this thread: one thing I never understood is the notion that VSL strings are "dated". I did some of the strings productions I am most satisfied with with SE orchestral & chamber strings and full package Solo Strings (I don't even own Appassionatas) and am always bewildered when I hear these instruments need "improvement". When I listen to the best productions involving strings done with VSL and compare them with the best productions involving strings done with other libraries, I always have to ask myself - improvement as compared to what?



Fair enough. There is a reason that Hollywood Brass is named Hollywood Brass and CineBrass is named CineBrass (and why Cinematic Strings is named Cinematic Strings) That is the sound they are attempting to achieve. That is not what the Vienna Symphonic Library is trying to achieve.

Libraries (and people) who endeavor to be "all things for all people" usually end up being not being great at any one thing.


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## Igor (May 23, 2012)

Ed @ Mon May 14 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Fine but for me, inspiration comes from the stack of bills on my desk
> ...



Ha! Spoken like a true pro.


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## Goran (May 25, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed May 23 said:


> Goran @ Wed May 23 said:
> 
> 
> > If money were no issue, I would want to have a great sound directly out of the box and want to use the library primarily in the "cinematic" way, HB would be my first choice. If I want a wider range of use, a bigger choice of instruments and want to do lots of finely crafted brass solos, VSL brass is still number one imo.
> ...



Usually, but not always  At the moment, VSL seems to be doing just fine as a notable exception to the rule...


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## EastWest Lurker (May 25, 2012)

Goran @ Fri May 25 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed May 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Goran @ Wed May 23 said:
> ...



With all due respect to you and the good folks at VSL, we will have agree to disagree on that. Their libraries are great for a lot of musical styles but not for that really lush sound that some others get IMHO.


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## Daryl (May 26, 2012)

Jay, what you call lush, I call synthetic, so it is all a matter of taste. I have been using VSL strings for 8 years, and have not yet found anything that other products do better, whilst I have found a lot of things that other products do worse.

D


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## EastWest Lurker (May 26, 2012)

Daryl @ Sat May 26 said:


> Jay, what you call lush, I call synthetic, so it is all a matter of taste. I have been using VSL strings for 8 years, and have not yet found anything that other products do better, whilst I have found a lot of things that other products do worse.
> 
> D



_Of cours_e, it is matter of taste. If it were empirically true or untrue there would be nothing to discuss and nobody would ever need to make competitive products that sound and /or work differently, only products that sound and work the same way at a lower price point.

This is not a knock on VSL, their libraries are well done and very versatile. But if VSL was pleasing everyone, these new libraries would not have been as successful as they have already turned out to be.

So please allow me to give different advice as I have a different opinion. If a classic Hollywood orchestral brass (and strings) sound is what a potential buyer is after, there are several better choices than the VSL offerings in my opinion.


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## Goran (May 27, 2012)

Although I agree with Daryl's statement as my own experience completely confirms it, there is also an important point to what Jay says - VSL isn't suited to this specific sonic aesthetics out-of-the-box, as some other libraries, like HS, HB or CS are. That is, if the big "film" sound is what one is primarily after, these libraries offer somewhat simpler solutions for top-notch results. Not that this sound cannot be achieved with VSL just as well and just as good - it can (just listen to Jay Bacal's masterly renderings of some John Williams pieces using VSL) - but it's not that easy to get it if you have just started using the library. That's the downside with the VSL. However, there is also a big upside - once you become proficient with the VSL, there is no "sound" and no orchestral production style you couldn't do with it, which is not the case with most other libraries.

In other words, the choice (if one has to choose) depends upon the sort of work you are doing and your middle- and long-term perspectives. If you don't have to choose, then it's pretty easy - go get them all... 8)


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## jleckie (May 27, 2012)

Goran @ Sun May 27 said:


> However, there is also a big upside [to using VSL libraries] - once you become proficient with the VSL, there is no "sound" and no orchestral production style you couldn't do with it, which is not the case with most other libraries.



Well said! I've been saying the same thing but you hit it there.


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## jamwerks (May 27, 2012)

Goran @ Sun May 27 said:


> Not that this sound cannot be achieved with VSL just as well and just as good - it can



I respectfully disagree. Jay Bacal is a fine musician and knows VSL inside and out. But redo his renderings of JW with Adagio, HS, HB/CB, Spitfire Perc. & Harp, and I don't think anyone would prefer the VSL version.


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## Daryl (May 27, 2012)

jamwerks @ Sun May 27 said:


> Goran @ Sun May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Not that this sound cannot be achieved with VSL just as well and just as good - it can
> ...


I disagree. I have yet to hear anything I like from at least one the libraries you mention.

D


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## EastWest Lurker (May 27, 2012)

Daryl @ Sun May 27 said:


> jamwerks @ Sun May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Goran @ Sun May 27 said:
> ...



And that folks, is why ice cream parlors have all those different flavors.


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## muziksculp (May 27, 2012)

Hi,

Nice to visit this topic once again. 

I'm still waiting for the delivery of EW-HB which I ordered on May 15th, but it is on hold due to out of stock on some other items I ordered along with it. 

Looking forward to use EW-HB (whenever it shows up). :roll: 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## José Herring (May 27, 2012)

Daryl @ Sun May 27 said:


> jamwerks @ Sun May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Goran @ Sun May 27 said:
> ...



I'd love the hear some of the stuff you're doing with VSL. I'm not saying that to be factious either. I really would like to hear it. I go back and forth as to whether to get more VSL stuff.

Personally I haven't heard anything done with VSL since the original cube that I thought was at all convincing. I watch a ton of British TV. Seems like VSL is all they use over there.


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## mark812 (May 27, 2012)

josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:


> Personally I haven't heard anything done with VSL since the original cube that I thought was at all convincing.



I agree - with the exception of woodwinds which sound fantastic.


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## muziksculp (May 27, 2012)

mark812 @ Sun May 27 said:


> josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Personally I haven't heard anything done with VSL since the original cube that I thought was at all convincing.
> ...



Talking about VSL-Libraries. I have heard many ok sounding demos, and very few great sounding ones. imho. VSL libraries are all dependent on who is behind the wheel  

Their Woodwinds are great, but ... VSL-Strings ... is another story, it again depends on the expertise of the user, most of the time I don't like what I hear as far as their strings go, but, their are a few execptions I have heard. VSL-Brass is not something I was impressed by. (One of the reasons I chose to go with EW-HB, instead of VSL-Brass). 

VSL has been too busy, and focused on developing great tools such as VE-Pro 5, and VI-Pro 2, but have neglected their sample libraries for quite some time. Hopefully they will go back to developing, and releasing their next generation Strings/Brass/Woodwinds in the near future. I think it's time they moved forward in the sample content dept. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## NYC Composer (May 27, 2012)

[quote="muziksculp @ Sun May 27, 2012 6:23 pm/]
VSL has been too busy, and focused on developing great tools such as VE-Pro 5, and VI-Pro 2, but have neglected their sample libraries for quite some time. Hopefully they will go back to developing, and releasing their next generation Strings/Brass/Woodwinds in the near future. I think it's time they moved forward in the sample content dept. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp[/quote]

When they began, they were one company among very few. The competition is growing. Small, agile companies are springing up. I wonder if we'll see another big push from Vienna to create a new comprehensive orchestral library. i guess we'll see.


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## muziksculp (May 27, 2012)

Another note regarding VSL-Brass .

Well, I did not get one recommendation on this thread to buy VSL-Brass :lol: 

That says a LOT , doesn't it ? 

Kind of a sad thing though, given the flexibility, and power VI-Pro 2 offers over other format. but their samples .... need a big refresh, and improvement. Especially Brass, and Strings ! 

I don't want to turn this into a VSL specific topic, but felt that I should give my opinion, this could have a been a secure sale for VSL if their Brass sounded great, but unfortunately, I had to go with what I feel sounds better (to my taste), namely: EW-HB , but at the expense of using their very limiting, from an editing, and performance perspective the (PLAY) engine. If PLAY-Pro was around, maybe that would have been a different story. So... One company has great sounding samples, but a very limiting player (PLAY) and the other has ok sounding samples, but great sample engine (VI-Pro2), At the end it is users like myself who have to sacrifice something.

I chose to sacrifice the player quality for the sonic quality o=< Which is what really counts when you listen to the music, the end-listener doesn't care about which sample engine was used.


----------



## muziksculp (May 27, 2012)

@ EastWest Lurker :

Hi,

What's taking EW so long to finally release *PLAY-Pro *? Should we be optimistic to expect it soon ? or should we forget about it for now, because it is still a few YEARS away ? :mrgreen:


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## Peter Alexander (May 27, 2012)

muziksculp @ Sun May 27 said:


> Another note regarding VSL-Brass .
> 
> Well, I did not get one recommendation on this thread to buy VSL-Brass :lol:
> 
> That says a LOT, doesn't it?



No. It says a lot about how they market, IMHO. VSL has Orchestral Brass 1, 2, Special Brass, and Dimension Brass. They just don't aggressively market them as the other devs do so they're not as top of mind. 

Additionally, because their pricing is pegged to the Euro, each individual library is more expensive than any of the other brass libraries discussed here. The Brass Bundle is $3000USD. 

VSL is outstanding quality. It's just expensive. :(


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## rgames (May 27, 2012)

muziksculp @ Sun May 27 said:


> Another note regarding VSL-Brass .
> 
> Well, I did not get one recommendation on this thread to buy VSL-Brass :lol:


Not true - I recommended it. It's my go-to library. I also use others.

I'll repeat what I said earlier: it's my go-to because it's less hassle. The others have too many programming problems that you're forced to work around, though I do prefer the sound. But ease-of-use wins with me, so I usually use VSL and add the others as filler. I find it much more efficient to tweak the sound of VSL vs. spending time dealing with the programming issues in the other libraries.

In the end, though, it's a trade. If EW and CB would do as much quality control as VSL, they would be the clear winners. The VSL VI player helps a lot - I've said it many times before: VSL should license it to other developers.

rgames


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## muziksculp (May 27, 2012)

rgames @ Sun May 27 said:


> muziksculp @ Sun May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Another note regarding VSL-Brass .
> ...



Hi rgames,

Yes, you did recommend VSL-Brass, sorry about that, (my mistake), I should have gone back and read the first few replies. I think you were the only one who recommended VSL Brass :lol: 

I'm currently in the process of setting up my new home studio, (My system is still not setup yet, but I hope to have it all up and running by mid-June). I have invested into some VSL libraries, but have not used them yet, (i.e. Strings I + Ext, Woodwinds II + Ext, Solo Strings + Ext, Vienna Suite, VE Pro 5, VI Pro 2), but have not purchased any of their Brass Libraries (yet). So, as you see.. I still value VSL's products, and Player. and think they have great products, but can still do better, based on the demos I hear other users producing, a new generation of VSL sample libraries would be fantastic ! 

Q. (As far as VSL Brass) Do you recommend starting out with 'Dimension Brass', or the other Main 'Brass I' or 'Brass II' DVD libraries to complement EW-HB ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## Jack Weaver (May 27, 2012)

In the sampling world, VSL are the adults in the room.

Nobody, nobody has their quality control. And nobody has come up with better legato than they have from 9 years ago! They're still the only company to have offered strings in multiple sized sections - solo, chamber, orchestral and super-sized. 

Their samples are beginning to show their relative age in that their WW's usually only have 2 layers. The strings don't have variable vibrato - but some people swear at that and instead of swearing by it. 

I have absolutely no idea what they're up to sample-wise these days as far as new products. Their last two major offerings were the unfortunate choir (massively out done in the creativity department by SoundIron, 8Dio and Cinesamples) and a valiant effort, but not quite there in Dimension Brass - just as EW and Cinesamples were on the cusp of offering strong collections. 

Personally, I don't mind the drier samples. MIR/SPAT and reverbs do a great job of making the ensemble/room sizes to be what it needs to be in any mix. At least with VSL I have the opportunity of deciding the size and depth of the ambience without it being so cooked-in. 

Love the WW, love the percussion - especially in MIR. (Flirted with another recently popular orchestral percussion library with cooked-in ambience but came back to VSL with MIR). Still use the strings, but only in layering. Come to think of it, I layer _every_ string library with other things. (What about you guys?) The strings shorts are wonderful, especially the long staccatos. Having them in solo, chamber & orchestral is a real bonus. I put the shorts on a MIDI slider and move between the various sizes during or between phrases/sections. 

I like MIR a lot - including the reverb plugs that come along with it - MIRacle and Hybrid. The only problem overall is that MIR is so very optimized for VSL samples. If they forgo making any more samples it might mean that MIR has less reason to live. Still trying to get ahold of the best usages of SPAT. Give me a week or two - I just got it. It doesn't have the variability of MIR or its customized venue spatial identities but it's plugin format is very useful. SPAT's reverb stinks IMO. It didn't take long before I turned it off altogether. It's a lot of money to pay for a plugin for only spatialization. But I'm sure I'll end up using SPAT for a bunch of things. 

I haven't been using the brass much lately - but outside of FH I haven't had a lot of call for brass. Of course the VSL WW's are first call. We'll see if that changes any time soon. 

But these guys from Vienna know their stuff. It's just down to what they decide to do marketwise. I sure have missed their level of Quality Control in so many recent purchases from other developers. 

.


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## José Herring (May 28, 2012)

Try not to think of the SPAT reverb as 'reverb'. Think of it as a way to create a room. You have to set it up as if it was part of the spacialization. You shouldn't really be able to hear it apart from that. Then apply your own reverb after. If you turn it off then the rooms will never sound right. The verb is part of the algorithm.

Spat works better if you think of placement in a mix rather than placement on a stage.

Also, I'd really like to hear what you guys are doing with VSL dimension brass. Again, I say that with no agenda or underhandedness. I'm really curious. I sat through a painful 2 hour presentation here in LA of Dimension brass with MIR. I came away with a less than favorable opinion. I think most of the people in the audience did. I can't think of what could possibly be good about it. So if people are getting good results it would be good to hear. I actually think it could be useful, but I have yet to hear anything good from it.


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## Daryl (May 28, 2012)

josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:


> I'd love the hear some of the stuff you're doing with VSL. I'm not saying that to be factious either. I really would like to hear it. I go back and forth as to whether to get more VSL stuff.
> 
> Personally I haven't heard anything done with VSL since the original cube that I thought was at all convincing. I watch a ton of British TV. Seems like VSL is all they use over there.


You've said a number of times that you don't like the sound of VSL, so I doubt that anything is going to change that. Personally I find the sound neutral, which is one of the things that attracts me, because then I can have a different sound according to project.

Interesting that you hear a lot of VSL on British TV. Which particular programmes are you watching?

D


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## Daryl (May 28, 2012)

Jack Weaver @ Mon May 28 said:


> In the sampling world, VSL are the adults in the room.
> 
> Nobody, nobody has their quality control. And nobody has come up with better legato than they have from 9 years ago! They're still the only company to have offered strings in multiple sized sections - solo, chamber, orchestral and super-sized.


Yes, I agree. EW and Cinesamples are both touted as competitors, but I have products from both companies that are extremely shoddy. In fact I deleted one of them the same day that I installed it...! There are VSL samples that I don't use any more, but it has nothing to do with quality control.


Jack Weaver @ Mon May 28 said:


> Their samples are beginning to show their relative age in that their WW's usually only have 2 layers. The strings don't have variable vibrato - but some people swear at that and instead of swearing by it.


There are way round the vibrato control, but my biggest problem with the Strings is that neither the Orchestral Strings or Appassionata Strings are complete (App Stgs more so). If both were complete I would be less inclined to record my own library.


Jack Weaver @ Mon May 28 said:


> I have absolutely no idea what they're up to sample-wise these days as far as new products. Their last two major offerings were the unfortunate choir (massively out done in the creativity department by SoundIron, 8Dio and Cinesamples) and a valiant effort, but not quite there in Dimension Brass - just as EW and Cinesamples were on the cusp of offering strong collections.


I have the choir and it's OK, but not great. However, the only other choirs I have are EW and Voxos. Obviously those do a different job, but when it comes to writing a beautiful legato Aaa line, I alway turn to VSL. The other two really can't cut it.


Jack Weaver @ Mon May 28 said:


> Personally, I don't mind the drier samples. MIR/SPAT and reverbs do a great job of making the ensemble/room sizes to be what it needs to be in any mix. At least with VSL I have the opportunity of deciding the size and depth of the ambience without it being so cooked-in.


Yep, agreed.


Jack Weaver @ Mon May 28 said:


> Love the WW, love the percussion - especially in MIR. (Flirted with another recently popular orchestral percussion library with cooked-in ambience but came back to VSL with MIR). Still use the strings, but only in layering. Come to think of it, I layer _every_ string library with other things. (What about you guys?) The strings shorts are wonderful, especially the long staccatos. Having them in solo, chamber & orchestral is a real bonus. I put the shorts on a MIDI slider and move between the various sizes during or between phrases/sections.


I always layer the Strings anyway. It gives the slight variations in timing (and pitch, if you want to go that way) which breathes life into music. However, because it can all be done manually, you aren't stuck with the out of tune notes every time you play them, which is not the case with some of the competing products.


Jack Weaver @ Mon May 28 said:


> I like MIR a lot - including the reverb plugs that come along with it - MIRacle and Hybrid. The only problem overall is that MIR is so very optimized for VSL samples. If they forgo making any more samples it might mean that MIR has less reason to live. Still trying to get ahold of the best usages of SPAT. Give me a week or two - I just got it. It doesn't have the variability of MIR or its customized venue spatial identities but it's plugin format is very useful. SPAT's reverb stinks IMO. It didn't take long before I turned it off altogether. It's a lot of money to pay for a plugin for only spatialization. But I'm sure I'll end up using SPAT for a bunch of things.


I use MIR on a few things and SPAT on others. Both are useful. However, SPAT is the one that I don't want to do without, because MIR falls into the same trap as the libraries (and recordings) using multi mic techniques. Lift the close mic and the sound gets nearer. This is not the case with SPAT, although you can do that if you want. Best of both worlds to me. I find that it is especially good on Woodwinds, which can tend to sound too fat.

D


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## José Herring (May 28, 2012)

Daryl @ Mon May 28 said:


> josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > I'd love the hear some of the stuff you're doing with VSL. I'm not saying that to be factious either. I really would like to hear it. I go back and forth as to whether to get more VSL stuff.
> ...



Well, I'm willing to change my mind. I've actually heard a few things that I think are pretty decent with VSL. I've always tried to stay away from a smattering of this and a smattering of that when it come to samples, but I'm almost resigned to using a smattering of VSL.

as far as Brit shows:

Dr. Who
Torchwood
Spooks (MI:5 it's called here in America because 'Spooks' is a derogatory name for blacks)
Being Human
Luther
Sherlock Homles
Robin Hood( which pretty much used real orchestra)

I think most of the shows use a combination of live orchestra and samples. Spooks though I've pretty much tuned out the music on that. Not a fan of it. Tourchwood and Dr. Who the same. But, I rather like the music to Luther, Robin Hood and Sherlock.


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## Daryl (May 28, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon May 28 said:


> Well, I'm willing to change my mind. I've actually heard a few things that I think are pretty decent with VSL. I've always tried to stay away from a smattering of this and a smattering of that when it come to samples, but I'm almost resigned to using a smattering of VSL.
> 
> as far as Brit shows:
> 
> ...


Dr Who uses the BBC Welsh orchestra. I think that Torchwood uses them for some of it (or maybe even all. I've not watched it). Spooks, it depends which composer. Being Human I can find out (a friend of mine is the Music Editor). I will also check Sherlock Holmes, because I've never seen it.

D


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## Goran (May 28, 2012)

jamwerks @ Sun May 27 said:


> Goran @ Sun May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Not that this sound cannot be achieved with VSL just as well and just as good - it can
> ...



Well, we are all still waiting for such a redoing...


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## Goran (May 28, 2012)

Jack Weaver @ Sun May 27 said:


> In the sampling world, VSL are the adults in the room.
> 
> Nobody, nobody has their quality control. And nobody has come up with better legato than they have from 9 years ago! They're still the only company to have offered strings in multiple sized sections - solo, chamber, orchestral and super-sized.
> .



Exactly. I still have to hear a strings piece production which surpasses the best strings productions done with VSL in terms of plasticity and realism of sound - and would like to emphasize that what is often mistaken for "lush" (an important point Daryl has already made) is more then often merely synthetic - to avoid misunderstandings, "synthetic" of this kind can be a quality _sui generis_ and great for specific purposes (f.e. some modern film & games music production styles consciously base their sound aesthetics on these sonic qualities) - but it shouldn't be mistaken for a "better" or more realistic strings sound in general. As a matter of fact, as far as the second point is concerned, it is quite the contrary - the strings sound of any other library I have heard as of yet is _less realistic_ then the strings sound of VSL (even though "less realistic" can be at the same time better suited for specific purposes).


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## jamwerks (May 28, 2012)

Goran @ Mon May 28 said:


> Well, we are all still waiting for such a redoing...



Goran, yours are some of the better sounding demos using VSL.

I'll write tomorrow, but will say for now that there are tons of great (better) sounding demos around using Adagio, HS, LASS, HB, & CB.

VSL is currently about the only choice for WW, but with 3 libraries on the way, that will soon change.


Edit: new info


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## Daryl (May 28, 2012)

jamwerks @ Mon May 28 said:


> Goran @ Mon May 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, we are all still waiting for such a redoing...
> ...


But again that is only your opinion. As I already said one of your preferred libraries sounds so bad to me that it would be impossible to have a better demo from that library. All is a matter of taste. It is not a matter of fact, and not everyone agrees with you, so your opinion is not universal.

D


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## EastWest Lurker (May 28, 2012)

Spealkng just for Jay, not EW:

Achieving "real" is an illusion. The very best piecces done by talented guys like Gorsn, Jay Bacal. Thomas J. Bergersen, Colin O'Malley, etc. NONE of them sound truly real to anyone who knows what real sounds like. The pursuit after a certain point becomes quixotic.

The rap against samples by guys like Piet, and it is justified, is that they are sterile and lifeless so for ME, emotional and evocative sound is what I am after and because I do not have unlimited time, I need to get to that sound quickly. So my choices are predicated on that.

Daryl talks about the importance of versatility of sound for him. For me, I want versatility of compositional styles, but I don't need to change my sounds so much. After all, the BSO in Symphony Hall sounds like the BSO in Symphony Hall no matter what period of music the pieces are from that they are playing.

Not to say Daryl and Goran are wrong and I am right, just a different philosophy and point of view.

And btw, except for demonstration and study purposes, spending an exorbitant time mocking up great Classical pieces is meaningless.

None of us are being asked to compose another "Rite Of Spring" and if we are, we damned welll better have the budget for a real orchestra.


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## jamwerks (May 28, 2012)

Daryl @ Mon May 28 said:


> But again that is only your opinion.



That goes without saying that what I write is just my opinion.

Have you heard any of the new Adagio demos? How does Adagio compare to VSL in your opinion?


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## Daryl (May 28, 2012)

jamwerks @ Mon May 28 said:


> Daryl @ Mon May 28 said:
> 
> 
> > But again that is only your opinion.
> ...


That is the one library I was talking about. :wink: 

D


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## jamwerks (May 28, 2012)

A good demo for Adagio imo is on the 8dio site, called Arcana Imperii (by Michal Cielchi). There was also a nice piece by Simon Raven here on another thread, using Adagio mixed with Spitfire Bespoke.


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## Daryl (May 28, 2012)

jamwerks @ Mon May 28 said:


> A good demo for Adagio imo is on the 8dio site, called Arcana Imperii (by Michal Cielchi). There was also a nice piece by Simon Raven here on another thread, using Adagio mixed with Spitfire Bespoke.


Yes, I have heard these.

D


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## rgames (May 28, 2012)

muziksculp @ Sun May 27 said:


> Q. (As far as VSL Brass) Do you recommend starting out with 'Dimension Brass', or the other Main 'Brass I' or 'Brass II' DVD libraries to complement EW-HB ?


Can't say - I looked hard at Dimension Brass but never got it - I got CB and HB instead. It just didn't sound different enough from the SE brass that I use. Still a little too strident in the higher dynamics. Probably can temper it with some judicious EQ (maybe multiband compression).

I was looking back at some recent work and I guess I've started using CB more frequently - maybe not quite as much as VSL but close. I just posted this piece:

http://soundcloud.com/richard-ames/in-m ... morial-day

It's mostly CB with some VSL fanfare trumpets. The brass choir at the end, in particular, shows where I think CB has an advantage - I always had a hard time getting a nice f or ff brass choir sound with VSL (too strident and thin).

Again, though, I can work a lot faster with VSL - still haven't figured out how to integrate CB fully into my template, so it takes a bit more work to use it.

rgames


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## muziksculp (May 28, 2012)

rgames @ Mon May 28 said:


> muziksculp @ Sun May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Q. (As far as VSL Brass) Do you recommend starting out with 'Dimension Brass', or the other Main 'Brass I' or 'Brass II' DVD libraries to complement EW-HB ?
> ...



Hi rgames,

Thanks for the additional feedback, and the audio demo, I appreciate it. 

As I have mentioned earlier, I hope to have my studio setup by mid-June, hopefully, I will be able to begin working with some of these libraries, and discover for myself their strengths, and weaknesses, and begin layering, editing, them to get the desired results for specific projects. It will take some time, but imho. that is the best way to answer some of my own questions, nothing beats diving into the real thing. 

There is a big variable in terms of tastes, specific project requirements, and the amount of time one has to tweak things around, all of this contributes to the end results, I have heard great VSL brass demos, and sometimes not so great, same with their strings, lots of variables are playing a big role here. So accurately evaluating libraries is not an easy thing to do when just listening to audio demos. The ultimate test is actually using them.

On the other hand, if libraries offer a wide range of articulations, and a flexible editor to tweak things to ones taste, then a lot can be achieved, it is the more limited editors of some library formats, that seem to constrain the composer from tweaking things to liking, and more or less, dictate things rather than facilitate a large range of sonic flexibility. I think this is where VSL VI-Pro 2 shines over the other formats. Kontakt might be kind of in the middle, and PLAY the least flexible from an editing perspective. 

Well... Stay cool in Tucson, I do visit Tucson a few times a year, and I know it gets pretty hot beginning May up to Oct. 

Cheers & Have a Great Memorial Weekend
Muziksculp


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## Goran (May 28, 2012)

jamwerks @ Mon May 28 said:


> Goran @ Mon May 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, we are all still waiting for such a redoing...
> ...



Thank you, I am glad you like them.



> I'll write tomorrow, but will say for now that there are tons of great (better) sounding demos around using Adagio, HS, LASS, HB, & CB.



...I am all ears, please do post these...


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## Goran (May 28, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 28 said:


> Spealkng just for Jay, not EW:
> 
> Achieving "real" is an illusion. The very best piecces done by talented guys like Gorsn, Jay Bacal. Thomas J. Bergersen, Colin O'Malley, etc. NONE of them sound truly real to anyone who knows what real sounds like.



Not so. Have done blind tests the results of which incontrovertibly prove the opposite.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 28, 2012)

Goran @ Mon May 28 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Spealkng just for Jay, not EW:
> ...



Then that casts doubts on the participants in my mind. I guarantee you that in under a minute, I will always accurately identify which is real and which is sampled.

For instance, I would know Jay Bacal's "Rite of Spring"version, which was very well done, was samples as soon as I heard the high bassoon beginning because I heard the real thing at age 18 when Sherman Walt played that part with the BSO and the hairs stood up on the back of my neck.

Samples = no goosebump factor.

It is the difference between going to bed with a beautiful woman and going to bed with a beautiful picture of a beautiful woman.


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## José Herring (May 28, 2012)

Anybody who's heard the rite would never mistake what J Bacal did as the real thing. 

But, when a piece hasn't been performed by the real thing and you have no frame of reference it can be really hard to tell.

TJ did a piece a few years ago for a commercial and it had even the most discerning of us fooled. We argued back and forth for pages debating its authenticity. We finally came to the conclusion that some where samples and some was live only to have egg on all our faces to find out that it was 100% samples.

Ah...those where good times.


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## muziksculp (May 28, 2012)

Is it possible to mistake a real orchestra for a sample-based recording ?


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## EastWest Lurker (May 28, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon May 28 said:


> Anybody who's heard the rite would never mistake what J Bacal did as the real thing.
> 
> But, when a piece hasn't been performed by the real thing and you have no frame of reference it can be really hard to tell.
> 
> ...



Well if anyone can do it it is Thomas. He is the best at it that I have ever heard.


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## mikebarry (May 28, 2012)

I've shown demos to elite composers and had them say during the course of conversation - "that sounds great, where did you record that?" So you can listen to them or Jay.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 28, 2012)

muziksculp @ Mon May 28 said:


> Is it possible to mistake a real orchestra for a sample-based recording ?



Actually, to that I would say yes. If you were to EQ and compress a recording of a real orchestra, particularly if the players were kind of uninspired, you could suck enough of the life out of it to do so.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 28, 2012)

Never mind. If Mike wants to fight, he can do so with someone else.


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## Daryl (May 28, 2012)

Actually Jay, you'd be surprised at the sort of people who can't tell the difference. Most of them are pretty dreadful when it comes to programming orchestra, and because they don't frequent forums, they have no idea what can be done with samples these days.

Having said that, in an A/B comparison, nobody would mistake the sampled version for a real one, unless the engineer had tried to make the sound synthetic, as is the case with many of the high violin lines in Jerry Goldsmith's scores.

D


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## EastWest Lurker (May 28, 2012)

Daryl @ Mon May 28 said:


> Actually Jay, you'd be surprised at the sort of people who can't tell the difference. Most of them are pretty dreadful when it comes to programming orchestra, and because they don't frequent forums, they have no idea what can be done with samples these days.
> 
> Having said that, in an A/B comparison, nobody would mistake the sampled version for a real one, unless the engineer had tried to make the sound synthetic, as is the case with many of the high violin lines in Jerry Goldsmith's scores.
> 
> D



Perhaps Daryl.

And yes, an A/B comparison is the true test., It sounds more like the real thing until you put it right up against the real thing.


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## rgames (May 28, 2012)

And, of course, there are those times where I've worked with live musicians who actually sound worse than samples...

Jay, I mostly agree with you but your statement that "you can always tell the difference" is too broad. That's true only for music written to take advantage of live musicians. If you've got a cue that's a spicc pattern over some rumbling bass and enormous perc, well, I beg to differ.

You *can* write music that makes the difference extremely obvious. You also can write music where the difference is nearly or totally imperceptible.

rgames


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## EastWest Lurker (May 28, 2012)

rgames @ Mon May 28 said:


> And, of course, there are those times where I've worked with live musicians who actually sound worse than samples...
> 
> Jay, I mostly agree with you but your statement that "you can always tell the difference" is too broad. That's true only for music written to take advantage of live musicians. If you've got a cue that's a spicc pattern over some rumbling bass and enormous perc, well, I beg to differ.
> 
> ...



That is a fair statement Richard. I don't generally write the kind of "Oh, I'll put some spicc pattern over some rumbling bass and enormous perc" stuff.

That may come off as condescending but I truly don't mean it to be, just literally true. But when I think of "orchestral music" that is not what I think of. That to me is more the provence of essentially non-orchestral composers writing "orchestral style" music.

That said, if the money is there..... :D


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## Gusfmm (May 28, 2012)

Daryl @ Mon May 28 said:


> jamwerks @ Mon May 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Mon May 28 said:
> ...


 :lol: and I thought I was the only one...


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## Arbee (May 28, 2012)

I haven't been doing this for long enough yet (not this time around anyway  ) to really stick my toe in the water here, but my impression is that we're comparing 2 different things. 

VSL to me in its current form is really a VI "environment" including sample libraries and software components (Libraries + VE Pro + VI Pro + MIR PRO), compared with other products which are more akin to "all-in-one" packages with specific stylistic/sonic outcomes. I can build my own packages in the VSL environment and appreciate the flexibility (and the reliability). Having said that, I do really like and appreciate the majority of what is in the market at the moment, they all have particular strengths but similarly particular limitations. That simple......


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## José Herring (May 28, 2012)

muziksculp @ Mon May 28 said:


> Is it possible to mistake a real orchestra for a sample-based recording ?



This is more common than one realizes.

I remember a time back in the early '90's. I was watching Last of the Mohicans with a friend. There was a moment when the score was totally exposed, 100 piece orchestra blaring triple forte, and he leaned over and whispered to me, "isn't it amazing what they can do with computers these days?" :lol:


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## José Herring (May 28, 2012)

Daryl @ Mon May 28 said:


> josejherring @ Mon May 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I'm willing to change my mind. I've actually heard a few things that I think are pretty decent with VSL. I've always tried to stay away from a smattering of this and a smattering of that when it come to samples, but I'm almost resigned to using a smattering of VSL.
> ...



There's plenty of fake shit in Dr. Who and Tourchwood as well. So much so that it throws the scores for those shows in disarray imo.

I'm not worried about Sherlock. Music is good but not to my taste that much.

Robin Hood had a very consistently good score. I was really shocked as we haven't had music recorded that way with that sized ensemble here in America since the early '90's. It was good to hear that size orchestra recorded in that kind of room again. Punchy brass, in your face strings, I'd almost forgotten what that combination sounded like.

Being Human, I've tuned out the music. It's just too far gone for me to be interested in it. But, I just love the show.


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## Synesthesia (May 28, 2012)

As I'm still excited about it... ! 

I used around 40 players on 'The Fades' which some of you may have seen on the BBC - or BBC America - which just won the BAFTA for Best Drama.

I didn't have the money to do sessions for every episode, so I scored 1 & 2 and recorded a 'grab bag' of materials that I could then use in the rest of the series, along side, versions of my cues that I had recorded in a way to enable me to break them down and re-use them.

I supplemented with Spitfire, and had smaller sessions at my studio for the non orchestral live stuff.

It reminded me (again, not that I need reminding) how much great players add to your music. And a great conductor, a great orchestrator (although I orchestrated as I wrote, Ben Foskett my orchestrator expanded and improved my ideas and arrangements) a great room and recording engineer..

All these things make it sooo much easier to make a great score.

A prominent and very successful guy in London once said to me (slightly tongue in cheek, but only slightly) 'you can write anything for a session orchestra and it'll sound great' in response to my fretting about my charts.

Still - the studying goes on, and as we all suspect, its pretty much a life's work to try and get good at this composing lark! :D

Cheers,

Paul


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## Goran (May 28, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 28 said:


> Goran @ Mon May 28 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 28 said:
> ...



You would be surprised - I did these tests with experienced, classically trained professional musicians (some of them soloists in prominent orchestras). And from my experience with these tests I were willing to bet 100 € that you would make at least one mistake (probably more), especially in the "real-is-sampled"-direction even in a "half" blind test containing eight or more different examples.

There wasn't one participant until now who didn't make at least one such mistake or wasn't sure about at least two of the examples. Not one. 

Which conclusions stem from these results?

I. Knowing that one is listening to examples of which one or more are sampled causes what I like to call a pre-knowledge induced perception paranoia (is not a clinical condition, no worries :D ), which manifests itself in the fact that people always tend to claim that at least one (usually more) of real recordings are sampled. Of course, they would never claim this for these recordings in circumstances which were free of this sort of distorted perception.

II. From these results it follows that "half" blind tests of this sort are extremely unreliable as objective criteria for judging the realism of sampled productions (for obvious reasons), and, especially, that A/B comparisons are in particular completely useless in this regard, for two reasons - a) even if one is not sure, there is a 50% probability one will get it right, which renders the results completely worthless already
b) the distorted perception caused by pre-knowledge tends to falsely project personal preferences on playing detail, overall sound, etc. in the sampled/real dichotomy in an even more extreme manner.

III. Last but not least: *only a pre-knowledge-free blind test is a real blind test* (that is, saying to somebody "let's listen to a piece of music" without giving them any hint of the fact that the production is sampled), as it is the only form of environment in which our perception is free of the distortion induced by pre-knowledge, that is, it is the only environment providing results which can serve as objective criteria on the realism qualities of a given production.


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## lux (May 29, 2012)

Blind test per se have no significance in my opinion.

The only way an aknowledged listener can confuse real and sampled is listening a limited performance. A simple performance. Most of times avoiding ornaments at all.

Thats also the reason the advent of samples changed the writing so much. People tend to avoid complex figures to make the mix sound real. But as a conseguence the average works have a less nuanced appeal than they had once. 

Which guy would have even considered composing an Edwige's theme using samples? Or lets just think to lot of Goldenthal's works, or Chris Young. None of such detailed and nuanced works would be composed today by sample based musicians.

Whatever blind test on John Wiliams scores replicated with samples would get full recognition even from my 6 years old daughter. Simply because theyre so detailed that no samples would cover the job.

At least thats my perception


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## XcesSound (May 29, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 28 said:


> Goran @ Mon May 28 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 28 said:
> ...



Very true indeed. 

Not too long ago, I wrote an orchestral work, and spent hours and hours on making a great mock up of my score. I thought I was pleased with the sampled mock up, but as soon as I put the parts in front of the 75 piece orchestra, and conductor of the Royal Opera House, I pretty much cried. Just having that direct comparison, especially when you know the work and the mock up/real performance so well, the difference becomes so clear.

However, its often the case having great samples and effectively enhance a live recording. When a recording is undeniably being played by wonderful real musicians, no one then questions the sampled aspect, it becomes an 'illusion' that its all real.


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## Daryl (May 29, 2012)

lux @ Tue May 29 said:


> Blind test per se have no significance in my opinion.
> 
> The only way an aknowledged listener can confuse real and sampled is listening a limited performance. A simple performance. Most of times avoiding ornaments at all.
> 
> ...


You are correct that many people write to the samples. However, for me this is getting to the point where it is not necessary, which is why I use the products that I do.

D


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## noiseboyuk (May 29, 2012)

Some nice contributions on this thread. I say we keep a note of it, then when the whole subject of "can you tell its samples" comes up yet again in another 3 months (it's usually no more than 3 months) we just cut and paste all the replies in from this thread to save everyone the bother of going through it all again.


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## Goran (May 29, 2012)

oh, is it that often?

well, then, my final thoughts on the subject (for the 2nd quartal of 2012, at least 8)): the real question isn't if a difference can be told between sampled and real recordings (even if my experience until now clearly confirms that, above a certain level of sonic and performance quality, it can't - by anybody except perhaps highly experienced audio engineers specialized in the production of orchestral music) - the real question is, if it is possible to achieve results with samples which make us, our clients and our audiences truly oblivious of technicalities - results which are crafted well enough sound- and performance-wise, that we perceive them as _music_, not as a half-made _imitation of music_. I believe that it does. And, in the final run, that's all that really counts. That's my final criterion when listening to any sampled orchestra production - is it performed and produced in a way which makes me oblivious of its technical details, and allows me to listen to it as music? If this is the case, then it is "real" - it's realism is a product of its own inherent qualities, and is completely independent of the fact that it may be not 100% similar to a real orchestra recording in every last detail.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 29, 2012)

Goran @ Tue May 29 said:


> :That's my final criterion when listening to any sampled orchestra production - is it performed and produced in a way which makes me oblivious of its technical details, and allows me to listen to it as music? If this is the case, then it is "real" - it's realism is a product of its own inherent qualities, and is completely independent of the fact that it may be not 100% similar to a real orchestra recording in every last detail.



That is a brilliant analysis Goran and if THAT becomes the accepted working definition of "real", then I am all for it!


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## Synesthesia (May 29, 2012)

I thought it might be interesting to post up a sketch Andy B did with the Spitfire Bespoke lib, in combination with some parts of our commercial libs: 

[mp3]http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws.com/audio/TheRiteOfSpringfire.mp3[/mp3]

Enjoy!

Paul :D


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## noiseboyuk (May 29, 2012)

Well I'm passed the "I can always tell" / "no you can't" circular debate, but that is amazingly impressive, Paul. Kudos squared to Andy B!


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## JohnG (May 29, 2012)

that is astonishing, Paul.


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## Synesthesia (May 29, 2012)

Thanks guys! Andy is frighteningly good at this stuff. No reverbs or other processing, its just "out of the box".


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## XcesSound (May 29, 2012)

Synesthesia @ Tue May 29 said:


> Thanks guys! Andy is frighteningly good at this stuff. No reverbs or other processing, its just "out of the box".



Thanks Paul, this is very impressive. I guess the all the reverb and 'air' heard came from the far and surround mic correct?


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## Andy B (May 30, 2012)

XcesSound @ Tue May 29 said:


> Thanks Paul, this is very impressive. I guess the all the reverb and 'air' heard came from the far and surround mic correct?



Yes, the overall sound comes from a mix of the different mics we use.

Oh, and I thought I'd just add that everything you hear in that short mock up is played from the keyboard, including the runs and trills – no phrases, all multisamples.

Thanks,

Andy.


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## jamwerks (May 30, 2012)

Great mock up Andy. I'd add that putting in a few tempo fluxuations in that part might add to the "realism". Kind of some "nervous rushing" here and there. o-[][]-o


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## Andy B (May 30, 2012)

jamwerks @ Wed May 30 said:


> Great mock up Andy. I'd add that putting in a few tempo fluxuations in that part might add to the "realism". Kind of some "nervous rushing" here and there. o-[][]-o



Thanks - tempo variations are something that I use a lot and feature in that mock up also.

Andy.


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## Goran (May 30, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 29 said:


> Goran @ Tue May 29 said:
> 
> 
> > :That's my final criterion when listening to any sampled orchestra production - is it performed and produced in a way which makes me oblivious of its technical details, and allows me to listen to it as music? If this is the case, then it is "real" - it's realism is a product of its own inherent qualities, and is completely independent of the fact that it may be not 100% similar to a real orchestra recording in every last detail.
> ...



Thanks, Jay - have just read your "how do you like it baked"-article and find it to sum up the whole "processed vs. raw libraries"-discussion in very sensible way. In my opinon, an excellent text.


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## Goran (May 30, 2012)

Synesthesia @ Tue May 29 said:


> I thought it might be interesting to post up a sketch Andy B did with the Spitfire Bespoke lib, in combination with some parts of our commercial libs:
> 
> [mp3]http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws.com/audio/TheRiteOfSpringfire.mp3[/mp3]
> 
> ...



That's what I was talking about - a performance so well crafted and produced, that it makes one oblivious of technicalities, and allows us to just listen to music. An excellent work.

To put my 5 cents in, here is a production of an older orchestra piece of mine, but one that can still show off some performance & production qualities imo:

http://www.digital-orchestra-production.com/en/demos/ossm/index.html


All woods & brass are VSL, strings are a VSL+HSO mix. Made with legacy MIR - Grosser Saal des Wiener Konzerthauses. Hope you'll enjoy it.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 30, 2012)

Goran @ Wed May 30 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Goran @ Tue May 29 said:
> ...



Thanks Goran.


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## muziksculp (Jun 1, 2012)

Hi,

It looks like I ordered EW-HB (Diamond Edition) from EW as a license only version, I did not notice this when I ordered it. 

I ordered EW-HB on May 10th. and was expecting a boxed unit delivery, but got a reply from EW that I ordered the license version. :roll: (Not a second license), but a primary license. 

Question : So.. How do I install HB ? I don't have any media. Just a license number emailed to me, am I supposed to receive a Hard Drive to install the samples ? or is it possible to download EW-HB ? or ... ?

Kind of confused about this. 

Your feedback would be very appreciated. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 1, 2012)

muziksculp @ Fri Jun 01 said:


> Hi,
> 
> It looks like I ordered EW-HB (Diamond Edition) from EW as a license only version, I did not notice this when I ordered it.
> 
> ...



PM me all the relevant info.

BTW, coincidentally at the moment I am composing a cue with HB, and man, am I having fun. It just sounds so good!


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## muziksculp (Jun 1, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Jun 01 said:


> muziksculp @ Fri Jun 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> ...



Hi Jay,

Thanks. I will PM you the details. 

I'm glad to know you are having a fun with EW-HB. I'm looking forward to enjoy this library as well. The main reason I purchased it was the great sound of this Brass library ! 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Jun 4, 2012)

Hi Jay,

Some Good News ! (Finally).

I just got an email (Today June 4th) from EW, telling me they will be shipping me a HD containing the content of EW-HB (Diamond Edit.), but no specific shipping date specified in the e-mail. (hopefully it will ship ASAP). 

I also recommended that EW put a large font memo next to license orders, that make it clear that the license orders do not come with any media. This would have saved me a lot of time, and frustration, dealing with such an issue. Since I was expecting a license to come along with the Media in order to install it. (What good is a license without media, if it is the first time I'm purchasing a product ?) 

Hopefully this will also help EW avoid this kind of scenario, and make sure customers know what to expect when they order a license of an EW product. 

I'm looking forward to install EW-HB (Diamond Edit.) and enjoy these great brass sounds o=< 

Thanks for your assistance,

Muziksculp


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 4, 2012)

muziksculp @ Mon Jun 04 said:


> Hi Jay,
> 
> Some Good News ! (Finally).
> 
> ...



You're welcome Tarek. You are going to love HB.


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