# LA Scoring Strings or Berlin Strings? Which would you choose and why?



## WaxLyricalMusic (Apr 10, 2014)

Ok, i'm buying a few libraries but i can't decide between LASS or Berlin. If you were to choose one as your main string library which would it be? Berlin is quite a bit more but is it worth it and is it as good as a base library as Lass?

Thanks.


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## jamwerks (Apr 10, 2014)

Welcome!

Maybe indicate a bit about what kind of production you do...


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## ed buller (Apr 10, 2014)

very different concepts. Berlin is much more intimate . So what sort of music will you use this for ?

e


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## Stiltzkin (Apr 10, 2014)

I have LASS but not BS (more of a spitfire person nowadays).

Personally I find that in sample libraries you often get what you pay for - I am yet to find myself in a position where I have spent a little bit more money than needed and been dissapointed - often the money you spend dictates how satisfied you will be. I'd go with BS, the hall and the dynamic patches alone is enough to sell it to most people.


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## Daryl (Apr 10, 2014)

I wouldn't recommend Berlin Strings. It is pretty much useless for me.

D


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## muk (Apr 10, 2014)

Berlin Strings are pretty new, whereas LASS is already at version 2.5 or so. LASS is a known quantity, has been developed continually and works well for many. Another advantage is the divisi approach.
Berlin Strings are new, a major update has just been released. If you have Berlin Woodwinds already and like the sound, BST should neatly blend with them.
If you don't need divisi, it comes down to preferences in sound.

Another option would be the VSL Dimension Strings. I'm very happy with them and in terms of articulation they are the most flexible. But then again, you may have your reasons for not including them into your list.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 10, 2014)

ed buller @ Thu Apr 10 said:


> very different concepts. Berlin is much more intimate



I don't own Berlin, but that doesn't sound like an accurate statement to me. Well, I agree they are very different concepts, but not really the intimate comment!

Berlin is a mid-size section. With LASS, you can choose between a full section, half or 2 different quarters, and there's solo strings too. Berlin has the ambience baked in, LASS is relatively dry (though nowhere near as much as, say, VSL). LASS can take a while to set up, but you can customise it to your needs and once done is very quick in day to day use. The legato is excellent and essentially artefact free, Berlin has different legatos based on speed to get round the ambient legato issue. That issue doesn't really arise in LASS at all because of the way it was recorded.

You can write stuff with LASS that is very small scale - quartets and chamber pieces. Perhaps it is happiest in ensemble mode though, in as much as you can use auto or manual divisi to stop the synthy effect when writing triads etc. The auto divisi works incredibly well.

Berlin really does look and sound like a great library, I'm certainly not having a go at it, but it just seems to me that LASS of all libraries can be the most misunderstood. I have a little fumble through video of how I have LASS set up here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFrhtGthJfA


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## MichaelL (Apr 10, 2014)

ed buller @ Thu Apr 10 said:


> very different concepts. Berlin is much more intimate . So what sort of music will you use this for ?
> 
> e




I have to agree with Guy. I have no idea where that idea came from. One of the things that I like the most about LASS is its capacity to be intimate.


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## AlexandreSafi (Apr 10, 2014)

I'm usually good at spotting the things that will stand the test of time,
*LASS*, in the professional world, is absolutely one of them...


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## Mahlon (Apr 10, 2014)

My two cents. LASS is a more polished library at the moment. Berlin Strings still has some growing pains maybe. LASS works evenly across the board, meaning that patches are more or less consistent. Berlin takes some fiddling (to me as much as HS), but the verisimilitude (see, big words mean I'm important!) you can achieve with Berlin is fantastic if you're willing to put in some time. At least that's been my limited experience so far.

LASS divisi sounds phenomenal, and I think the shorts in LASS are better generally. That's really subjective though. BST Vln 1 and 2 shorts seem diffuse and less clear. HS has the best shorts to me. (Mainly talking Vlns here). A couple of the BST Vln longer patches have some nasal frequencies that I've not equalized yet. Then again, LASS has always sounded on the strident side, but it's tamable. 

Berlin Strings doesn't sound in single patches as great as it _does_ sound in the whole if you know what I mean. Once you've got all your MIDI tricks in play with BST, it comes alive. Again, it's the Frankenstein approach to creating a line, but it works well with BST. The same could be said for LASS in a way because of the divisi approach.
Of all the demos I've scrutinized from both libraries, I like the sound and realism of Berlin Strings a wee bit better than LASS. But only by a hair. LASS in the hands of someone more capable can make it sound very realistic. Just listen to some of Blakus' stuff for incredible LASS string tone. And now his Berlin stuff too.

I've just been kind of charmed with BST's sound and gusto. 

So my advice taken with a grain of salt would be to get Berlin Strings first notably for it's realism, then add LASS if you feel you need gorgeous divisi, or if BST feels too inconsistent in playability.

But honestly, you can't go wrong with either. No way.

Hope that helps,
Mahlon


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## AC986 (Apr 10, 2014)

Daryl @ Thu Apr 10 said:


> I wouldn't recommend Berlin Strings. It is pretty much useless for me.
> 
> D



How about the recent updates Daryl?


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## ed buller (Apr 10, 2014)

I only have the light version of LASS so i'm probably missing out on a lot but I'm really not keen on the basic sound ( other than the shorts ). It's very, very harsh to my ears and i much prefer the quality of VSL. 

i still think the isn't a " great " string library out there. I'm tempted by Berlin as I think their woodwind library is wonderful but it does concern me when people like Daryl think it's unusable ....

e


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## Casiquire (Apr 10, 2014)

ed buller @ Thu 10 Apr said:


> I only have the light version of LASS so i'm probably missing out on a lot but I'm really not keen on the basic sound ( other than the shorts ). It's very, very harsh to my ears and i much prefer the quality of VSL.
> 
> i still think the isn't a " great " string library out there. I'm tempted by Berlin as I think their woodwind library is wonderful but it does concern me when people like Daryl think it's unusable ....
> 
> e



I don't think LASS Lite is the best way to judge LASS Full. The Color profiles that come with Full make a HUGE difference, especially with ensembles built up from smaller sections. As for VSL...I'm playing around with getting Dimension Strings to match a bit more closely with my LASS strings and I'm finding DS by FAR much, much more harsh than LASS. I've said it before and I'll say it again...seems like most of the people who complain about LASS's tone haven't played with the range of color profiles.


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## Blakus (Apr 10, 2014)

It's such a personal thing really. LASS was my bread and butter for 2 years and I loved it, I did have to apply pretty drastic EQs to it until I was happy with it though. 

Daryl says that he finds Berlin Strings unusable, but I am using it entirely as my main string library and I'm super happy, preferring it over HS and LASS. So I guess we need to remember that all opinions (including mine), need to be taken with a grain of salt. In the end, libraries are such a personal thing and it is ultimately the user that can only decide if it is for them or not. Here's some of my observations anyway

LASS:
Amazing playability
Divisi sounds great


Berlin Strings:
Great string tone
Mic option flexibility
Wider articulation options
More expressive

I can't really say anything bad about either library, but I've chosen Berlin Strings because I like the sound better. Like any library though, both have a learning curve. LASS took me longer to get set up and running the way I wanted it. Berlin strings for me was near instant setup, but I had to spend more time learning how play the adaptive legato properly. Once I figured that out, I was happy.


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## ed buller (Apr 10, 2014)

Casiquire @ Thu Apr 10 said:


> I don't think LASS Lite is the best way to judge LASS Full. The Color profiles that come with Full make a HUGE difference, especially with ensembles built up from smaller sections. As for VSL...I'm playing around with getting Dimension Strings to match a bit more closely with my LASS strings and I'm finding DS by FAR much, much more harsh than LASS. I've said it before and I'll say it again...seems like most of the people who complain about LASS's tone haven't played with the range of color profiles.



this is a fair comment. I am aware that i'm missing out on a lot. 

I have the VSL appassionata strings. and Chamber Strings . I think they both sound wonderful. No eq needed


also...unless i'm missing something. Isn't Berlin Strings ten times the size of LASS in terms of samples ?

e


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## PJMorgan (Apr 10, 2014)

ed buller @ 10th April 2014 said:


> I only have the light version of LASS so i'm probably missing out on a lot but I'm really not keen on the basic sound ( other than the shorts ). It's very, very harsh to my ears and i much prefer the quality of VSL.
> 
> i still think the isn't a " great " string library out there. I'm tempted by Berlin as I think their woodwind library is wonderful but it does concern me when people like Daryl think it's unusable ....
> 
> e



I'm no expert but I've been using Lass Lite for most strings now for a couple of months & find the harshness only really comes when you push the dynamics too high. Keeping cc1 under 75 for most playing (apart from something really aggressive) is the way to go, Keep it really low for softer parts. I'm still getting to grips with it but I'm getting there.

Paul


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## Folmann (Apr 10, 2014)

[flash width=400 height=300 loop=false]https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/playlists/3998909[/flash]


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## Folmann (Apr 10, 2014)

Or ... Full String Ensemble Adagietto ($399) ...

[flash width=400 height=300 loop=false]https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/playlists/16670031[/flash]


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## The Darris (Apr 10, 2014)

Folmann @ Thu Apr 10 said:


> Or ... Full String Ensemble Adagietto ($399) ...



And the shameless plug award goes to....... :wink: 

Based on the OP's main choices, for me I look at tone, usability, and how it works on a system. In this regard, LASS would be my first choice as it is smaller in size and doesn't eat up system resources as much as Orchestral Tool's products. Not every composer can afford to slave computers when starting out yet they need a competitive edge when writing for samples. I personally feel LASS covers this base. However, I have never used LASS. I have watched many videos, listened to loads of demos, and have read a lot on it but never got it because I wanted something to work for me out of the box. 

Berlin Strings does have the out of the box ready to go setup like many other strings libraries on the market. The only thing is that it eats up resources. This is based on many user comments and just looking at the size of the patches, you know it will need a lot. 

I digress.

When buying any library, base your decisions on what you need and for what purpose it serves. LASS will teach you a lot about applying reverb and eq as well as working with divisi, where as Berlin Strings will give you a solid starting point out of the box with a very clear sound with loads of expression (via scripting and articulations). Both libraries have their strengths and weaknesses. You just have to decide who is ultimately the one to go with. Choosing a library to me is subjective and personal. I would love to know what people think about the usability but in the end, I will buy it based on performance and sound.


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## The Darris (Apr 10, 2014)

Daryl @ Thu Apr 10 said:


> I wouldn't recommend Berlin Strings. It is pretty much useless for me.
> 
> D



I love how un-helpful this comment is. Could you please provide some useful criticism? For instance, why is it useless for you? Did you purchase it and have technical problems? Are you unable to use it because you don't have a system that can manage it? Is the adaptive legato tripping you up and you just don't like the way it plays? What is the problem? 

Sorry to call you out but what point is posting your feelings if you aren't even going to share them with the rest of us?


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## eric aron (Apr 11, 2014)

Folmann @ Thu Apr 10 said:


> Or ... Full String Ensemble Adagietto ($399) ...
> 
> [flash width=400 height=300 loop=false]https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/playlists/16670031[/flash]





how can you propose Adagietto in the same range as lass or berlin?

a library with half content ensembles patches providing no velocity layers, allowing only heavy string pads chords with no subtleness and expression? what is the philosophy behind this?

as for choice i would take berlin without any hesitation, the concept is more easy playable, the sound more realistic and vibrant, the room very balanced, and there is all the orchestra coming within the same philosophy, thus promising excellent sound coherence for the whole. and no useless tons of sophisticated articulations, just simple ones, working efficiently for the creative flow


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## Casiquire (Apr 11, 2014)

eric aron @ Fri 11 Apr said:


> a library with half content ensembles patches providing no velocity layers, allowing only heavy string pads chords with no subtleness and expression? what is the philosophy behind this?



From 8dio.com:



> All Adagietto patches comes both as full ensemble patches (all string groups) and as individual string sections (ex. isolated cellos). So you can either compose quickly with the entire ensemble or do more delicate orchestrations with the individual sections.



So they include separate ensembles like most other libraries. The entire purpose of the Adagio series is specifically NOT to have velocity layers and to capture a performance and breath that the makers believe does not exist with crossfaded samples. Whether or not they are right about this is out of the scope of this discussion, but I figured it was worth mentioning that Adagietto does indeed have individual sections and the whole Adagio series seems great at passionate and sometimes even subtle melodic lines, not just pads.


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## Simon Ravn (Apr 11, 2014)

I would go for Berlin Strings. I think the tone/timbre is superior to LASS. And the new legato concept can do much more than the legato of LASS. Also there are a lot of exotic articulations and runs builders etc you won't find anywhere else pretty much. There are still some issues with the legato in V1.5 but I hope OT will continue to improve this, but there are many things to like about this library and overall it just feels more "modern" than LASS. I would say the smoothest legato award goes to EastWest Hollywood Strings, so that would be a nice companion for BST in places where BST doesn't work for you or you need something a little bigger sounding.


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## Markus S (Apr 11, 2014)

Adagietto has no velocity layers and/or crossfade between velocity layers? Reading on the website :

Full Ensemble Natural Sustains (PP, P, MF, F) MW

http://8dio.com/#instrument/adagietto/


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## muk (Apr 11, 2014)

Since it has been mentioned a few times here: Berlin Strings don't sound more realistic than LASS to my ears. Nor is it the other way around. Until now I haven't heard a single mockup of a classical piece where you couldn't hear that it's made with samples (may be different for heavy trailer stuff). There are always some moments that give it away, and often enough these are in the strings.
Listen to the Trepak mockup with Berlin Strings, for example. It's really really well made, but it wouldn't pass as real. In my opinion this gives a pretty fair image of what is possible with todays strings libraries.

Whether it's BST or LASS, both have their strong points and both have their limitations. But certainly both rank among the best that you can buy today. Comes down to individual workflow and taste.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 11, 2014)

Simon Ravn @ Fri Apr 11 said:


> There are still some issues with the legato in V1.5 but I hope OT will continue to improve this



This really is the problem with ambient legato libraries. It feels like a never-ending process of refinement, where things may improve but never fully get there - the engineering challange is pretty hardcore. It'll be really interesting to see how smooth Sable is in the coming update though - I have high hopes for sure. CineSamples played a neat trick there I think with CineStrings, programming it in a way to make it behave more like a LASS or an HS type library and letting external reverb handle the space. While it raises questions of why record in a live hall if you have to be that extreme in the processing, I very much like the results and in the end that's what counts.

I did listen to the video for Berlin 1.5, and I have to say the slower legatos really didn't work for me on that demo. The faster ones sounded good though - the inverse of what you often find!

LASS still remains the king of legato for me, in strings anyway - its super-smooth, it integrates perfectly across A, B, C and first chair and you have adjustable port and gliss. As I said before, the issue of adaptive legato doesn't really apply to LASS cos it works well at fast speeds anyway (though a true run simulator would be very welcome).


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## Daryl (Apr 11, 2014)

The Darris @ Fri Apr 11 said:


> Daryl @ Thu Apr 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't recommend Berlin Strings. It is pretty much useless for me.
> ...


Out of tune, badly edited, room drops out when notes are medium speed, runs have the wrong notes still audible in the reverb, noises in tails, noises during notes, audible bumps during notes, microphone positions drop out under certain circumstances.....

Are those enough issues for you?

D


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## feck (Apr 11, 2014)

Simon Ravn @ Fri Apr 11 said:


> I would go for Berlin Strings. I think the tone/timbre is superior to LASS. And the new legato concept can do much more than the legato of LASS. Also there are a lot of exotic articulations and runs builders etc you won't find anywhere else pretty much. There are still some issues with the legato in V1.5 but I hope OT will continue to improve this, but there are many things to like about this library and overall it just feels more "modern" than LASS. I would say the smoothest legato award goes to EastWest Hollywood Strings, so that would be a nice companion for BST in places where BST doesn't work for you or you need something a little bigger sounding.


I agree with all of this.


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## AC986 (Apr 11, 2014)

Daryl @ Fri Apr 11 said:


> The Darris @ Fri Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Thu Apr 10 said:
> ...



I think it's pretty helpful based on my knowledge of Daryl's work.

Dary, repeat, did the recent updates make no difference?

Also, I don't know if this ever got fixed or even addressed, but the room drops out, or did, on the Berlin woodwinds under certain conditions and that is basically unacceptable.


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## The Darris (Apr 11, 2014)

Daryl @ Fri Apr 11 said:


> The Darris @ Fri Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Thu Apr 10 said:
> ...



Yes, and that is quite useful for those interested in getting Berlin Strings. Did you by chance open a support ticket with OT? If so, have they addressed any of these issues with a timeline to a fix?


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## Daniel White Music (Apr 11, 2014)

Guys, let's face it. Spitfire Audio's BML Mural pretty much takes the cake. 'Kay? I just added it to my collection recently and must say I'm _very_ happy with it. Worth every penny. The amount of versatility is superb. For instance take this demo which displays it's more intimate side:

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F133382804&secret_url=false[/flash]

But it's not just limited to the quieter stuff, either. It has superb dynamic range. The short articulations are pretty killer as well. For instance:

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F133382805&secret_url=false[/flash]

Plus, it very nicely compliments Hollywood Strings in many aspects.

Anyway, I leave you with a track I just recently orchestrated for a friend which utilized Mural.

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F144046770&secret_url=false[/flash]


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## Stephen Rees (Apr 11, 2014)

Daryl @ Fri Apr 11 said:


> Out of tune, badly edited, room drops out when notes are medium speed, runs have the wrong notes still audible in the reverb, noises in tails, noises during notes, audible bumps during notes, microphone positions drop out under certain circumstances.....
> 
> Are those enough issues for you?
> 
> D



You are too used to living in the cosy VSL world where everything just works and everything is in tune. Welcome to the world the rest of us live in ALL THE TIME


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## AC986 (Apr 11, 2014)

Very nice Daniel.


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## Daryl (Apr 11, 2014)

The Darris @ Fri Apr 11 said:


> Did you by chance open a support ticket with OT? If so, have they addressed any of these issues with a timeline to a fix?


There is not really much point in opening a support ticket for two reasons:

Firstly some of the problems are actually caused by the conception of the library, which IMO is flawed, so OT would think that there was nothing to fix.

Secondly, if they can't hear that things are often out of tune and really noisy, they wouldn't be able to fix them.

To be fair, I did start a spreadsheet to try to help with spotting issues, but I gave up as there were so many. It's a shame, because I'm sure that there are good things about this library. It's just that the one feature they really tried to sell the library on doesn't work well.

D


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## JohannesR (Apr 11, 2014)

WaxLyricalMusic @ Thu Apr 10 said:


> Ok, i'm buying a few libraries but i can't decide between LASS or Berlin. If you were to choose one as your main string library which would it be? Berlin is quite a bit more but is it worth it and is it as good as a base library as Lass?
> 
> Thanks.



LASS for my money. I have both, and as a BASE library you can't go wrong with LASS. The divisi/scalable section approach, the first chair patches, the matureness of the library and the smoothest legato to date gives you a very flexible and trouble free base library. It also works very well for smaller and more intimate settings (pop, rock etc.).

I use different libraries all the time, but LASS is my go-to library. I have a feeling that if you make a list of every string sample library in the world, LASS can get you 90% of the way of what each and every other library can do. That makes it a very good starting point!

Later you may want to add (not at all a complete list);
- a Spitfire library because they do DARK really well.
- Cinestrings to get the great ROOM sound of Sony which I really dig.
- Hollywood Strings or Cinematic Strings because they do the lush Hollywood sound really well.
- Berlin Strings because of it's expressiveness, many articulations and to my ear a slightly more classical sound.
- VSL to access their flexible "silent stage" sound (pros and cons) and a myriad of articulations.


My point being that no library do everything well, but LASS covers a huge ground! If you have a very particular taste in sound, I would suggest to go for the one you like the best! I choose the string library I use on a case-to-case basis, and I must admit that after buying all these other sample libraries LASS gets less use, but if I had to pick one I would go for LASS no doubt!


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## Diffusor (Apr 12, 2014)

Daryl @ Fri Apr 11 said:


> The Darris @ Fri Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Did you by chance open a support ticket with OT? If so, have they addressed any of these issues with a timeline to a fix?
> ...



I don't know if I would go as far as saying "unusable" just going on the incredible demos I have heard. Apparently someone is using using it to great effect. Definitely has a lot of noises baked into the mics here and there. Pretty much all do except VSL but they only use one set of closer set of mics which is a lot easier to control noise. When you have large condensers placed everywhere in the room I can imagine it's impossible to get totally clean recordings unless you wanna spend a lot of time and money on numerous takes.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Apr 17, 2014)

I got Berlin Strings. It has some nice things but it does have a lot of bugs and it doesnt always work. 

I have used LASS in the studio and seen it in action, I think LASS is perhaps much better than Berlin Strings in almost all areas. Where its not, its just different. 

It is truly a shame because they could have made this library much better. 

I haven't had time to download the update yet (115GB!!!) and I am working on a new score every 30-45 days at the moment so I really do not appreciate paying that much money only to find that most of the things do not work and/or have bugs. 

And so I have moved on for now to continue using VSL and some stuff from Spitfire which I have to say still works much better than Berlin Strings. I has its limitation but what it does - it does well and consistently so. I am talking Albion II, III, HZ Perc (winner of the lot!) and Solo Strings.


Good luck with your choice!


Tanuj.


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## Casiquire (Apr 17, 2014)

Wait, Tanuj, the UPDATE is 115gb? The entire LASS Full library is less than a third of that, with full divisi! It must be really broken if the update alone is that large.


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## The Darris (Apr 17, 2014)

Casiquire @ Thu Apr 17 said:


> Wait, Tanuj, the UPDATE is 115gb? The entire LASS Full library is less than a third of that, with full divisi! It must be really broken if the update alone is that large.



What did you expect when some of there patches have up to 24 Round Robin?


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## kavinsky (Apr 17, 2014)

the size is that large because of microphone positions mostly. seems to be the trend nowadays. The whole updated Berlin Strings library is around 130gb.


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## Casiquire (Apr 18, 2014)

So the original release was so broken that only 1/8th of the library didn't have to get replaced? Seems odd to me considering how good Orchestral Tools is.

Wow, 24 round robin? That's intense! Personally I'd never make use of all that but it does seem like a very comprehensive library.


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## OT_Tobias (Apr 18, 2014)

Calm down, folks 
That was probably a typo. The 1.5 update download is 14.7 GB. Definitely not 115!
Most of that download is the new Ostinato Arp Legatos, which use new samples as well as some other new samples.

@vibrato: I encourage you to download the update. If then you still encounter the bugs you describe PLEASE let me know via the support email address.


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## FriFlo (Apr 18, 2014)

Comparing LASS and Berlins Strings on this level is really ridiculous! Guys! I have both of them, including Legat sordino on my computer and I will tell you this:
Pro LaSS: 
- the divisi part is something, that no library has this way, except VSL DS, that is mainly, that I will keep it for!
- it has these spiccatos with some extra portion of slam to it.  that is not always what you want, but sometimes it is just great
Pro BS:
- the sound color is way superior, LASS sounds really metallish in comparison and is in bad need of EQing
- number of articulations available is so much more with BS basic library, and the first expansion has just hit the store. Audiobro has talked for years now, they are on something very special, but have never delivered.
- the LASS legato surely is something, but against so many people, who state otherwise: it is not really suited for fast playing!

So, please stop these ridiculous statements, if you can't even compare! Sure! The 1.0 release could have been much better! But 1.5 is good, as far as I see it! And show me one developer that had a perfect 1.0 that didn't need any work on?


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## Casiquire (Apr 18, 2014)

OT_Tobias @ Fri 18 Apr said:


> Calm down, folks
> That was probably a typo. The 1.5 update download is 14.7 GB. Definitely not 115!



That sounds SO MUCH MORE reasonable! Thanks for clarifying.


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