# VSL or Sampling Modeling or Spitfire? Goodness I need Help!



## Rodney Money (May 25, 2015)

So yes, I need major help and need to decide this week. Here's the situation:

1. Budget is $1000
2. Commissions this year: Full-scaled Modern Ballet, Trumpet/ Flugelhorn Concerto with Piano Accompaniment, and Concert Band Composition.
3. I need alto, tenor, and baritone saxophones that can produce a concert band sound and not just a jazz sound.
4. Need a euphonium or euphonium ensemble sound.
5. Need a piano sound that can do pop, classical, and modern cinematic sound
6. Need woodwinds in ensemble settings.
7. Need trombone ensemble with true legato
8. Need more useful strings for beautiful flowing passages and chord building.
9. Samples I have: Cinestrings, been disappointed especially producing beautiful passages, Cinewinds, no ensemble patches for blending and chord building, Cinebrass, no euphonium, flugelhorn, or trombone ensemble with true legato, and Cineperc.
10. Should I go with the Albion bundle to supplement the strings and brass/ woodwind ensembles, and would they work for profession recordings or are these libraries just for sketching?
11. Which are better for saxophones: Sample Modeling or VSL for concert band sound?
12. VSL has euphoinium solo for concert band music but in the Albion series they have euphoinium ensemble.
13. Is the flugelhorn from VSL still professional sounding or is the library old fashion now compared to today's samples?
14. If I go with Sample Modeling or VSL, is reverb included, or do I need to buy that also or is the reverb in Cubase professional quality?
15. Is The Granduer a professional quality Piano?
16. I know you are all going to say, "Listen to demos and use your ears." Well I have, but it's 2015, I write and perform for live players everyday, and samples still do not sound real to me, so I need the ears of the people who write mostly for samples to tell me which ones are the best within my budget.
Thanks guys and happy composing!
Rod


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## Stiltzkin (May 25, 2015)

Since most of this seems to be aimed at a more classical setting, I'd recommend spitfire or VSL, sample modeling is great but since you need a good set of winds, I'd recommend either vsl or spitfire over them.

The reverb in cubase is professional quality - additionally you can get IRs from around the web (often free) if you don't like any of the IRs they have (assuming you chose to use IRs).

Honestly the difference between spitfire and vsl will be down to your own mixing skill and preference - if you are ok with a big hall sound then spitfire will be a great purchase, they have the HZ piano coming soon and I expect that to be an incredible piano - that would allow you to get your piano accompaniments down.

VSL has a greta piano too, and everything they make is very versitile...

If you're just looking for an idea of what people like, then me being one of these people would say spitfire over vsl - I don't think you can get as realistic sound with VSL than spitfire because it will always be emulated.

Spitfire have been quite quiet recently though, their twitter is a bit active with new recordings so I am hoping for something big soon - they're a good investment. For the price the albions will do you better than VSL I imagine, in terms of quality - but if you are used to writing out all the parts you won't be able to as well with albion, that would instead require BML line, which is far outside your budget.


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## JT (May 25, 2015)

Rod, 

Like you, I primarily write for live musicians. My demos are often used just for submission to publishers. 

I think that VSL has the tools that you need, and the advantage of buying just what you need ala carte if you choose. I started down this path, but once I got into it, I never felt comfortable with the VSL workflow. There was too much to do, to get the sound I wanted. You might be different though and like the workflow. 

So I went down the Spitfire path and got the sound I wanted right out of the box. I'm able to spend more time writing, rather than spending that time tinkering. I still use the VSL saxes when needed, but working with those sounds is my least favorite part of the process.

Spitfire's Albions however, I don't think will give you what you want. The strings choices are either high or low. The cellos and basses are combined. The violins and viola are combined. You won't get an accurate representation with all of this layering in the samples. Even the Euphonium in Loegria, is a blend of Euph & Horns. I use Albion for sketching out ideas, not for my finished demos.

As Stiltzkin mentioned, you would probably need instruments from the BML series for your needs. You do have the option of just getting the instruments you need first and using them with your Cinesamples libraries. 

Check out some of the VSL videos, you'll get a felling about the process and see if that works for you. Here's the videos for the VI Pro Player.
[/url]http://www.vsl.co.at/en/Vienna_Software_Package/Vienna_Instruments_PRO#!Video_Demos[/url]

You can find the Spitfire videos at their website. It's pretty much just load the sounds that you want, choose which mic positions you want, and go.

Good luck.
JT


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## Dean (May 25, 2015)

I recommend Spitfire for strings,Albion II Loegria,Solo Strings,Sable, they also have brass too,solo instruments and much more,.they sound beautiful,natural,straight out of the box very expressive,user friendly,..I can keep going,.oh yeah,..pretty affordable too. D


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## Saxer (May 25, 2015)

i made a template for concert band shortly. i used a mix of vsl, samplemodeling and wallanderinstruments. all main sections are samplemodeling doubled with vsl for the endless unisono sections (especially flutes and clarinets) and tuba/euphonium from wallander. sm-saxes and all other sm-intruments sound good for non jazzy ensemble stuff too (which is more a question of articulation rather than sound).
rhythm section was mostly spitfire percussion plus trilian bass and addictive drums.
i use a breath controller for dynamics which for me is essential to make the samples kind of musical.


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## NYC Composer (May 25, 2015)

Did anybody notice his budget limitations?


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## Rodney Money (May 25, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Mon May 25 said:


> Did anybody notice his budget limitations?


I noticed them. :D so what would you do?


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## NYC Composer (May 25, 2015)

Probably VSL SE ( presently on sale at Audio Deluxe)and SM saxes. I don't use WW ensembles or Euphonium samples so I'm no help there. Cinesamples Piano in Blue might cover the necessary pianos at at a reasonable price.

If these samples are not to be replaced by real players, my thought is the budget is insufficient. Berlin Strings, Spitfire, higher end 8dio- one of these would seem necessary. Spitfire horns and maybe winds. Not inexpensive.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (May 25, 2015)

I'd say Spitfire but considering the budget, perhaps the best option would be to go with Eastwest considering that nowadays they have some of the cheapest libraries. YOu could also get their cloud option which I think for a year would be $600 and use the remaining $400 go get whatever you're not happy with in Eastwest.


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## ModalRealist (May 25, 2015)

For $1000, you are toast. No dice given your requirements. Only half-feasible option is to get VSL SE Vol.1 and Vol.2; you'll need to get the Vol.1 Bundle and the Vol.2 Bundle in order to have basic decent articulations (e.g. trills are only in the Extended version, so you need the bundle). You'll then need to buy Single Instruments for what's missing (e.g. euphonium). On top of that you'll need Vienna Instruments Pro (another $200) and for your sanity you'll want a MirX mixing extension. That probably goes over-budget by a few hundred, but no one else even offers the instrumentation you're after.


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## sinkd (May 26, 2015)

The Grandeur should be fine for piano. I like the VSL Flugel a lot, it should be good too, but if the concerto tpt needs to match you'll want VSL for that as well. I would recommend the download B-flat tpt.

I have a similar need for euphonium and saxes and I've just about decided that VSL is the way to go myself. Learning to mix VSL instruments is worth it. You will need a reverb that gives you control over ER and tail. It's possible that you'll have what you need in Cubase.

As for strings, I would say that unless you up your budget, those are not happening. I am a very happy LASS user, you could try LASS lite, but again you'll need to invest some time figuring out the mix.

What are the mockups for—since you are obviously writing for live performance?

DS


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## Mihkel Zilmer (May 26, 2015)

Some solid advice here! 

But I agree with what ModalRealist said - you can't get all that (and expect to get the best possible products) for a $1000. 

Realistically, you're looking at needing to spend at least twice that, unless you go with VSL products. But, take into account that VSL instruments have a steeper learning curve than most others and learning to mix them to a satisfactory result will most likely mean a significant time investment, unless you are already an experienced mixer / engineer.

Let me suggest an alternative - instead of spending ages learning how to program and mix, spend that money on hiring a competent MIDI programmer / orchestrator with an extensive library collection. Deliver a score, just like you're used to, and have them prepare the audio. The real upside here is that you will have more time to focus on what matters most - the music.


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## Rodney Money (May 26, 2015)

Wow! Such great advice from everyone. I appreciate your expertise so very much, and will try to respond to each of you with more questions and praise soon (probably more tomorrow since I have a concert today,) but let me ask you this and share some more information that might help. 

My biggest worry I have right now with needing samples is the ballet. As of right now, the ballet is going to be a mix of samples and live musicians. It will have moments of ethereal, cinematic, fantasy, modern dance, and classical, and I need sounds that will fill that palate. I do understand that the Albion bundle is ensemble base, but are the tone qualities of the samples themselves as beautiful as the BML series? I understand not all of the articulations are there but are the tone qualities equal? For example, do the Albion strings sound just as good as Mural or Sable? 

So lets just say with the trumpet concerto I can just do what I always do and grab my horn and manuscript paper and write the darn thing out and publish it in Finale. It seems to be the biggest budget concerns with most people are the strings? Is that what's making it kill my budget? So let's talk about Albion 1,2,3 for a second. Giving my situation, do you think they could work or is this simply a canned sketching tool that no one really takes serious with no disrespect to Spitfire, of course (great company, I am so close to saying, "Screw it," and just buy all the brass bundle or woodwind bundle. I am drooling over those trombones right now!!!!!!!!) o=< 
~Rod


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## JT (May 26, 2015)

IMO, yes, Albion sounds as good as Sable/Mural. Less articulations, no individual sections, but the sound is amazing. If your needs are to use string samples to blend with live players, it'll fit your bill.

I personally prefer the strings in Albion2, Loegria. They really nailed the delicate sound of strings. Even though it's a smaller string section, you can use their transpose trick to thicken the sound. That said, Albion #1 is a great base to build from. You can't go wrong with either.

As long as you're considering this, also take a look at the Sable Ensemble package. It's the full ensemble on each articulation. You won't get the winds or brass that come with Albion, but you might have more string choices at your disposal. I don't have Sable Ensemble, so I can't comment on the sound, but I'm sure it it's comparable to the sound of the regular Sable libraries.


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## JohnG (May 26, 2015)

Sable is a chamber music sized ensemble, whereas Mural is a large string section. Both sound great, but quite different, naturally.


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## Wunderhorn (May 26, 2015)

I don't know the details on the different Spitfire strings and how they are organized, but I have noticed that generally I would never in a million years want to use anything that would not give me full control over divisi when it comes to strings.
I use LASS and this is just a very natural way to work with divisi. To me it is a straight-forward approach that is also as close to traditionally divisi writing as it can get - This is important as I always want my score to be playable (even if they never see an orchestra).

And before I would get into all the details about woodwinds and brass I would get the string-writing in perfect order. It is the basis of everything else. JMHO.


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## g.c. (May 27, 2015)

Lookng at you budget, maybe take a look at Wavearts for a nice Fluegelhorn.
X Chamber (Sounds on demand) may suit much of your need though they are solo only.
Maybe folks with experience with Aria strings would sound in.
g.c.


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## Rodney Money (May 27, 2015)

g.c. @ Wed May 27 said:


> Lookng at you budget, maybe take a look at Wavearts for a nice Fluegelhorn.
> X Chamber (Sounds on demand) may suit much of your need though they are solo only.
> Maybe folks with experience with Aria strings would sound in.
> g.c.


Hey G.C., do you have a direct link to the flugelhorn, because I could not find any instruments on their site just mastering tools and such.
Thanks!
~Rod


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## synergy543 (May 27, 2015)

Rodney Money @ Wed May 27 said:


> g.c. @ Wed May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Lookng at you budget, maybe take a look at Wavearts for a nice Fluegelhorn.
> ...


I think g.c. meant Wavesfactory.
http://www.wavesfactory.com/w-flugelhorn.php

I would also suggest VSL SE as the best solution for your budget and genre as others above have suggested. While the VSL SE has limited articulations compared with the full libraries, its still very capable in the right hands. Many of Guy Bacos's demos are done with only the VSL SE libs.

As for a piano, the one I can most highly recommend for your budget (and regardless of budget) is the Berlin Piano Steinway D (part of the OT Orchestral Grands). It is both versatile and has an amazingly good sound as it was recorded at Teldex. Most of all, its a plays nicely.
http://www.orchestraltools.com/libraries/the_orchestral_grands.php (http://www.orchestraltools.com/librarie ... grands.php)

Reverb will be essential for the VSL instruments. MIR is too rich for your budget now, I'd put the money into instruments and use something like Vahalla for the time being. While I don't have this myself, I'm certain its capable of excellent results and the price is right.
https://valhalladsp.com/shop/plugins/valhalla-room/


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## Rodney Money (May 28, 2015)

[/quote]
I think g.c. meant Wavesfactory.
http://www.wavesfactory.com/w-flugelhorn.php

I would also suggest VSL SE as the best solution for your budget and genre as others above have suggested. While the VSL SE has limited articulations compared with the full libraries, its still very capable in the right hands. Many of Guy Bacos's demos are done with only the VSL SE libs.

As for a piano, the one I can most highly recommend for your budget (and regardless of budget) is the Berlin Piano Steinway D (part of the OT Orchestral Grands). It is both versatile and has an amazingly good sound as it was recorded at Teldex. Most of all, its a plays nicely.
http://www.orchestraltools.com/libraries/the_orchestral_grands.php (http://www.orchestraltools.com/librarie ... grands.php)

Reverb will be essential for the VSL instruments. MIR is too rich for your budget now, I'd put the money into instruments and use something like Vahalla for the time being. While I don't have this myself, I'm certain its capable of excellent results and the price is right.
https://valhalladsp.com/shop/plugins/valhalla-room/[/quote]
Back from a concert, and got one tomorrow also, but thank you so much for the direct links especially unknowingly showing me where that free, great sounding music box was that I was looking for all this past month! I almost did another thread just to find it and there it was under their freebies. I so need that sound for the ballet, and thank you for the other links also. How does Vahalla reverb compare to the stuff that comes with Cubase? And thank you for the piano link. I will check it out!
~Rod


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## synergy543 (May 28, 2015)

Rodney Money @ Thu May 28 said:


> How does Vahalla reverb compare to the stuff that comes with Cubase? And thank you for the piano link. I will check it out!
> ~Rod


You can hear examples of the Vahalla in the demos of *this thread*.


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## Rodney Money (May 30, 2015)

Stiltzkin @ Mon May 25 said:


> Since most of this seems to be aimed at a more classical setting, I'd recommend spitfire or VSL, sample modeling is great but since you need a good set of winds, I'd recommend either vsl or spitfire over them.
> 
> The reverb in cubase is professional quality - additionally you can get IRs from around the web (often free) if you don't like any of the IRs they have (assuming you chose to use IRs).
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for your input. Like you, I am drawn toward Spitfire over VSL mainly due to out of the box sound and ease of use.


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## Rodney Money (May 30, 2015)

Thank you so much JT for your honest input. I still love the demos of the saxes on the VSL site and will need saxophones adventually since my life's work right now revolves around that sound. Do you know if sampling modeling or VSL is easier to work with concerning work flow? And in your honest opinion do you think I truly need the full version of the saxophones in VSL or just the standard? And thank you for the video link, and information concerning Albion, and your honesty concerning that you mostly use them for sketching. It's great to hear from someone who was and is in my shoes. 
~Rod


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## Rodney Money (May 30, 2015)

Dean @ Mon May 25 said:


> I recommend Spitfire for strings,Albion II Loegria,Solo Strings,Sable, they also have brass too,solo instruments and much more,.they sound beautiful,natural,straight out of the box very expressive,user friendly,..I can keep going,.oh yeah,..pretty affordable too. D


So it's Spitfire from you. Thank you for your input! Awesome list.


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## Rodney Money (May 30, 2015)

Saxer @ Mon May 25 said:


> i made a template for concert band shortly. i used a mix of vsl, samplemodeling and wallanderinstruments. all main sections are samplemodeling doubled with vsl for the endless unisono sections (especially flutes and clarinets) and tuba/euphonium from wallander. sm-saxes and all other sm-intruments sound good for non jazzy ensemble stuff too (which is more a question of articulation rather than sound).
> rhythm section was mostly spitfire percussion plus trilian bass and addictive drums.
> i use a breath controller for dynamics which for me is essential to make the samples kind of musical.


Hey Saxer, thank you for listing some libraies tht I am not familar with! I will definitely check them out. Is there anything concerning strengths or weaknesses of these libraies that I need to know about in comparison to libraries such as Spitfire or Cinesamples? Btw do you have a link to a good breath controller?


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## Saxer (May 31, 2015)

Rodney Money @ 31.5.2015 said:


> Is there anything concerning strengths or weaknesses of these libraies that I need to know about in comparison to libraries such as Spitfire or Cinesamples? Btw do you have a link to a good breath controller?



here's the 'to go' breath controller, small, simple, cheap, playable and extremely useful:
http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-mi ... controller

some sound libraries sound good even if you just hit one key. they are sampled with 'musical feeling'. but those libraries are harder to control because you have to find the right samples for every musical situation. you have to deal with key switches for every note lenght (spicc, stacc, marcato, sustain...). the opposite are libraries like wallander and samplemodeling. they sound death when playing on a keyboard without caring for dynamic. but if you can 'play' them with real time controlling by breath (or other) controller they come alive without any key switching. if you play them staccato they sound staccato. for my taste the much more musical way. they are just instruments.

weakness of wallanderinstruments is the lack of 'high end' sound realism of single sounds. but a lot of musical 'realism' comes from articulation and dynamic control and for that they are great. the ensembles can sound really convincing when arrangement and performance is well done. pro of the full wallander package is the big range of instruments (especially for concert band).


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## JT (May 31, 2015)

Rod,

Just making sure you're aware of the current sale on Sable. It won't fill all of your needs, but for what it does, it's a great investment.

Details:
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45761

JT


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## rdieters (Jun 3, 2015)

Saxer @ Sun May 31 said:


> here's the 'to go' breath controller, small, simple, cheap, playable and extremely useful:
> http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-mi ... controller



I second that. Works fantastic with Samplemodeling. Whatever you decide, make sure you get one.


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## cmillar (Jun 4, 2015)

To keep in budget...

Kirk Hunter Diamond Orchestra (there seems to be a real bias on the forum against his library!..... check out the demos!)

It's an awesome bargain. And, you'll have plenty of extra money to decide on other libraries to fill out your needs. Some of the included instruments are really outstanding and hard to beat, plus you get to control how much reverb you'll ultimately want to add.

- SampleModeling Trumpet with breath controller (or use a real trumpet player!)...(this'll be my next purchase.... the sample instr. that is!... for great demos or music that has to sound really great in a small budget.)
I think you can get a good gliss from the trombones too... but, that can be recreated in other brass libraries no problem.

- any extra Kirk Hunter libraries, or Chris Hein Horns (regular or compact). He has some great sounding brass and saxes/clarinet.

- get a good piano (even the pianos from Digital Sound Factory ($49 Yamaha or Steinway) are really pretty great!)

- euphonium... hmm... take the 'edge' off a trombone sample? Even the Garritan library might have a great set of sounds you need without breaking the bank. Some of the Garritan libraries are used in things we hear everyday!
Not familiar with the VSL Euph's. Probably pretty good like all their libraries.

But, nowadays, if you've just got a $1000, you can make it. 

Seeing as you know real players and real instruments, you're ahead of the game. A lot of 'composers' have never had the joy or pleasure of playing anything or really working with live players. So, you know how to make them breath, how long a line can be, what kind of intervals can be comfortably played, etc. etc.

I think you can do it for $1000!


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## Rodney Money (Jul 14, 2015)

cmillar said:


> To keep in budget...
> 
> Kirk Hunter Diamond Orchestra (there seems to be a real bias on the forum against his library!..... check out the demos!)
> 
> ...


It's funny you mentioned trumpet player because I am one, LOL. But then I would need to buy a good mic. 

Yep, sometimes I forget about my advantage of always working and writing for live players. I just assume everyone knows that flugelhorn pedal tones work and trumpet pedal tones sound like farts.

So this is how I decided to go, Berlin woodwinds which includes better sounding samples with ensemble building and I can suppiment the missing winds with my CineWinds Pro for now, Sample Modeling Brass which has trombone legato and better articulations, and then East West Spaces to sweeten the sounds including my CineStrings.


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## zacnelson (Jul 15, 2015)

I would have thought an East West subscription would be the perfect solution


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## Rodney Money (Jul 15, 2015)

zacnelson said:


> I would have thought an East West subscription would be the perfect solution


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like "another bill" in my life. If I remember correctly, for $30 a month I could get 7 libraries, and if I wanted all their libraries then it would be $50 a month? Then, I would have to continue this for life in order to continue to use their samples including projects I previously used them in? My budget is around $1000-$1100, so for another $300 I could have their Complete Composer's Edition which includes 7 libraries? Something that life has taught me is that it is always better to own than rent. Once again please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I went with East West subscription I would get strings which I could use along side my CineStrings to sweeten the sound, but the brass is about the same as my CineBrass and Sampling Modeling Brass with the right work sounds very realistic, the woodwinds are about the same as my CineWinds but Berlin's timbre seems to trump these two to my ears and includes runs. Sampling Modeling Brass has the flugelhorn and legato trombone ensemble I need, and I can build beautiful ensembles in Berlin Woodwinds. I would still be in need of saxophones and euphoiniums, but with an East West Subscription I would not get them either, be paying monthly, and still would have to spend the money for the "band instruments." I am just trying to make sence of it all, and once again please correct me if I'm wrong. To me samples tend to be more geared toward the media world which means I need to get a little creative when spending my money to fit my needs, but I still want the best samples that money can buy even if it takes a little longer. Am I just creating renderings for live players? Yes, but I want to use them for my publishers, conductors, and inspiring new musicians to play my works that have not. For example, just this past month I wrote a concert band/ marching band/ drum corps piece using Cinesamples. I sent the demo to a conductor in Florida and now the 300+ marching band will be performing that piece in front of 40,000 people every weekend. Samples do have power even for live ensembles! Thank you for your help, my friend, and once again I truly mean this, correct me if I missed something about the subscribtion.


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## Jaap (Jul 15, 2015)

I am amazed that I have not seen Chris Hein being mentioned! I think the Chris Hein compact might be a good starting point (or any of his other products, he got a wide range, also including deep sampled stuff) since it included a nice range of winds (including saxes) and brass for an extremely affordable price. I have no experience with it though and of course there maybe better sounding libraries out there, but maybe worth checking it out

Here a link: http://www.chrishein.net/web/CHH-C_Overview.html


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## Rodney Money (Jul 15, 2015)

Jaap said:


> I am amazed that I have not seen Chris Hein being mentioned! I think the Chris Hein compact might be a good starting point (or any of his other products, he got a wide range, also including deep sampled stuff) since it included a nice range of winds (including saxes) and brass for an extremely affordable price. I have no experience with it though and of course there maybe better sounding libraries out there, but maybe worth checking it out
> 
> Here a link: http://www.chrishein.net/web/CHH-C_Overview.html


I won't be purchasing anything until probably next week, so I still have a chance to check on other products. Thank you for the suggestion!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 15, 2015)

Rodney Money said:


> 14. If I go with Sample Modeling or VSL, is reverb included, or do I need to buy that



I think this hasn't been mentioned yet: with VSL, there's the option of getting MIRx, which acts as a plugin for the Vienna Instruments player. It's a multi impulse response convolution plugin that adds appropriate reverberation and EQ to all instruments and places them in their common position on the stage. It sounds very good and convincing and is a great time-saver. With MIRx engaged, VSL stuff really isn't any more complicated or time-consuming to work with than any other library.

MIRx is a Vienna Instruments plugin however, which means it can only be applied to VSL samples and cannot be used as a normal reverb plugin inside the DAW.


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## Rodney Money (Jul 15, 2015)

Jimmy, thank you so much for the information. I was wondering about that for the longest time. Now, does the MIRx make the Vienna Instruments harder to blend with other samples such as CineSamples? Or would you then blend the two libraries with another reverb like Spaces?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 15, 2015)

A VSL library with MIRx engaged pretty much behaves like a library that's been recorded with reverb baked in. Which means mixing them with another library may sound as satisfactory or problematic as it can be when mixing two different wet libraries.

I almost always use MIRx when I use VSL samples. It's obviously a no-brainer as long as the project is VSL only. When mixing VSL with other libraries, if I feel that the ambiences of the samples sound too different to be convincing, I like to dial back the MIRx "wet" slider to lower values. It can be dialed down completely, and by doing that you essentially end up with the correct spatial position and stereo width, but no reverb tail - just the immediate early reflections. It basically sounds like "close mics only" of a wet library. Then I can send them through another general reverb tail along with all the other instruments from different libraries, so everything is being rounded up by the same room sound.


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## zacnelson (Jul 15, 2015)

You've got some great music on your Soundcloud page Rodney!


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## Rodney Money (Jul 15, 2015)

zacnelson said:


> You've got some great music on your Soundcloud page Rodney!


 Oh! This is a surprise. How in the world did you ever find that noise?


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## zacnelson (Jul 15, 2015)

Because you listened to one of my tracks so it showed up on my stats :D


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## Rodney Money (Jul 15, 2015)

zacnelson said:


> Because you listened to one of my tracks so it showed up on my stats :D


HAHA! Lesson learn. Just kidding, but thank you I appreciate it. As you can tell, I tend to write more towards live ensembles for the concert hall and such, but I envy how y'all can make samples rock!


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## Rodney Money (Jul 15, 2015)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> A VSL library with MIRx engaged pretty much behaves like a library that's been recorded with reverb baked in. Which means mixing them with another library may sound as satisfactory or problematic as it can be when mixing two different wet libraries.
> 
> I almost always use MIRx when I use VSL samples. It's obviously a no-brainer as long as the project is VSL only. When mixing VSL with other libraries, if I feel that the ambiences of the samples sound too different to be convincing, I like to dial back the MIRx "wet" slider to lower values. It can be dialed down completely, and by doing that you essentially end up with the correct spatial position and stereo width, but no reverb tail - just the immediate early reflections. It basically sounds like "close mics only" of a wet library. Then I can send them through another general reverb tail along with all the other instruments from different libraries, so everything is being rounded up by the same room sound.


Thank you again, for the wonderful, detailed information. It helps a lot!


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## Rodney Money (Jul 21, 2015)

So here's what I decided on: better woodwinds that can create ensembles= Berlin Woodwinds Main Library, better trombones with true legato and that can play chords= Spitfire Bones 1, VSL Flugelhorn, needed a piano= Piano in Blue, I needed better strings, so I still believe that I can work with Cinestrings so I'm getting East West's Spaces to sweeten the sound and getting Tina Guo Legato also for some beautiful lines. So I came to my budget of around $1100. I still need alto sax, tenor sax, baritone sax, and euphonium which with the standard versions of VSL will run me another $200-$300. Maybe I can write a grant or wait until winter or spring? The full versions would be even more.

Question time again, it says I need a Vienna Key for VSL, but I purchased Cubase last year. Will that key from Steinberg work for VSL saving me $25?


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## Markus Kohlprath (Jul 22, 2015)

Yes the Steinberg Key(e- licenser) is the same as the Vienna Key. Will save you the 25$


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## Rodney Money (Jul 22, 2015)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Yes the Steinberg Key(e- licenser) is the same as the Vienna Key. Will save you the 25$


Awesome! Girls hitcha hallelujah.


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## almound (Aug 25, 2015)

Rodney Money said:


> Jimmy, thank you so much for the information. I was wondering about that for the longest time. Now, does the MIRx make the Vienna Instruments harder to blend with other samples such as CineSamples? Or would you then blend the two libraries with another reverb like Spaces?


Now you are asking a good question. Check out Alexander Publishing's course: Visual Orchestration 2: Articulations & Templates (http://www.alexanderpublishing.com/Products/Visual-Orchestration-2--Articulations-and-Templates__Spec-VizOrch-02-Dwnld.aspx). I bought it (as well as the 3rd in the series, on orchestral mixing), and was I ever glad. The info about getting different sample libraries to sound as though in the same room is invaluable, and not easily available elsewhere (RT60s and other acoustic properties of key studios used to record sample libraries, the orchestral setup charts for applying early reflections and reverb tails, studio footprint specs, and what well known films were recorded where). I've almost finished implementing the info of Visual Orchestration 2 into my work flow, and plan to implement Visual Orchestration 3 (the orchestral mixing course) over the next year. Crucial stuff! 
With this kind of information available, I've finally been able to utilize the VSL library that I got way back in 2006, because now the technology I'm using makes it feasible to achieve the realistic sound that I had always hoped.


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