# Hemsey calls Jablonsky a parasite



## choc0thrax (Jul 18, 2011)

http://zackhemsey.blogspot.com/2011/07/ ... onsky.html



I've never seen TF3 but my cousin Ricky says it's wicked. He claimed it was better than watching wrestling but I don't believe him.


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## JohnG (Jul 18, 2011)

You're right. Your cousin is sick in the head. Nothing beats wrestling.


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## MikeH (Jul 18, 2011)

Here's a better comparison than the one he posted on his blog.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ig9vfAAGgQ


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 18, 2011)

Guys, they both sound like rip-offs!! Seriously, nothing original in either case, although Hemsey's is much better. But Zimmer beats them both in a cage fight. And the melody? starting with 1-2-3-1-3 of the minor key? I can probably find 100 examples in film music. Not that it's bad! I do the simplest stuff all the time, if it works. I just don't think it's all that original, writing very commercial melodies, that is.


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## rgames (Jul 18, 2011)

My response was the same as Ned's - sure, they sound similar. But they both sound *very* similar to a lot of other tracks in that style.

To my ears, most tracks in that style sound more alike than different. Sure, these are exceptionally close, but if you're painting by numbers and everyone uses the same few colors, well, it's bound to happen.

rgames


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## gsilbers (Jul 18, 2011)

agree with ned too. 


also: steve's is waaaaayyyy much cheesier


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## lux (Jul 18, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Jul 18 said:


> Guys, they both sound like rip-offs!! Seriously, nothing original in either case, although Hemsey's is much better. But Zimmer beats them both in a cage fight. And the melody? starting with 1-2-3-1-3 of the minor key? I can probably find 100 examples in film music. Not that it's bad! I do the simplest stuff all the time, if it works. I just don't think it's all that original, writing very commercial melodies, that is.



+1000 with Ned boy.


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## MichaelJM (Jul 18, 2011)

This is way too close to be called a coincidence. Way too close. It's pretty clear Jablonsky had Mind Heist in mind when writing the track. I don't know of any piece written before Mind Heist that sounds as similar.

Just because Hemsey's original isn't exceedingly 'original' doesn't make it okay for Jablonsky to rip it off. Yes, certain elements of Mind Heist can be seen in other pieces of music, but you can take almost any piece of music and say that. If Jablonksy was stuck with it as a temp track, he could have easily used a little more creativity. There shouldn't be any excuse for this in my opinion.


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## TheUnfinished (Jul 19, 2011)

Colour me unconvinced.

Am I supposed to pretend I've never heard spiccato strings and a brass/synth stab at the beginning of each bar?


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## choc0thrax (Jul 19, 2011)

Looks like we might have a challenge here: find a piece as close to "Mind Heist" as "It's Our Fight" is. Shouldn't be hard as everyone here seems to think Mind Heist is a ripoff of something else.


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## bluejay (Jul 19, 2011)

Surely "Sam At The Lake" from the original movie is a far more obviously derivative track.


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## TheUnfinished (Jul 19, 2011)

bluejay @ Tue Jul 19 said:


> Surely "Sam At The Lake" from the original movie is a far more obviously derivative track.


Haha! Can't imagine what you mean...

But US TV, in particular, has been mining that seam ever since American Beauty came out.

These things often happen in cycles. An interesting and slightly different film soundtrack will have an impact and the resonance remains for years. Even sample libraries follow these trends.


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## Ed (Jul 19, 2011)

Mind Heist sounds better, agreed. Does it sound like a rip off? Yes. But Ive heard way closer than this before. WAY CLOSER. Zack's reaction is understandable but I think he has to accept that anything that becomes popular will immediately be ripped off, to me this is a drop in the ocean.

I like how Tyler Bates ripped off Goldenthal that was SO blatent they had to put a note on the soundtrack saying he nicked it without their knowledge or consent. I am amazed Bates still got work after that.


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## gsilbers (Jul 19, 2011)

im sorry, but all of you are wrong...

steve jablonsky ripped it from here:

http://www.theasylum.cc/product.php?id=128


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## mducharme (Jul 19, 2011)

I think it's probably influence by another track, in the case of both composers.. I've written things before that I thought were new, and it turns out things popped into my head that I had probably heard 10 years before and forgotten about.

It could also be a case of temp track similarity like with John Williams' theme to Superman (an instance that I haven't seen anybody else pick up on).


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## madbulk (Jul 19, 2011)

I rarely hear things as ripoffs. My threshold is high. And lots of phrases and melodies are so available that it's hard to even talk about ownership of them.

Here, if we did a lead sheet, which is always my primary concern, they're only a little similar. MindHeist is kinda muddy but it seems to be pedaled -- that matters a lot. T3 has a rooted chord progression changing every bar. And the notes aren't the same and one phrase in T3 logically answers the one before it. So I'm done. The tune isn't stolen.

Everything else about it is just living in the real world. The big hits on 3? Too bad. We all have big hits on 3. That's rock and roll.

It's like Ed said. A drop in the ocean.

Certainly sounds inspired though. I really can't believe he played it at the same tempo and in the same key. That's just asking for it.


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## Mike Connelly (Jul 19, 2011)

With a budget like TF3 had, I don't know why they just didn't license the damn thing.



mducharme @ Tue Jul 19 said:


> It could also be a case of temp track similarity like with John Williams' theme to Superman (an instance that I haven't seen anybody else pick up on).



Do you mean the Strauss, or something else?


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## mducharme (Jul 19, 2011)

No, something else. Superman was originally to have been scored by Jerry Goldsmith - I read online once that it was temp tracked with Goldsmith's music from "The Swarm", particularly the end credits from the swarm (which had come out just months before). The influence it had on the Superman main theme is clear to my ears. Not a copy or rip-off per se, but just a noticable influence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=446Xey65PNk

EDIT: (And, the more well known borrowing from Strauss referred to in the previous post, can be heard starting here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEjY-W8WcYg&t=2m18s)


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## RiffWraith (Jul 19, 2011)

mducharme @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> No, something else. Superman was originally to have been scored by Jerry Goldsmith - I read online once that it was temp tracked with Goldsmith's music from "The Swarm", particularly the end credits from the swarm (which had come out just months before). The influence it had on the Superman main theme is clear to my ears. Not a copy or rip-off per se, but just a noticable influence.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=446Xey65PNk



Wow.


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## choc0thrax (Jul 19, 2011)

mducharme @ Tue Jul 19 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=446Xey65PNk



Scary stuff. Maybe even creepier than the score for Alien. I can totally see the killer bees getting up to start their day... eating breakfast, reading the paper... temporarily getting stuck in traffic during the darkest parts.


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## JonFairhurst (Jul 19, 2011)

The smallish orchestra and relatively dry mix will frighten any young moviegoer!


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## mikebarry (Jul 19, 2011)

Cool thread. Surely the lines are tangled more then ever since "melody" is now sixteenth notes and chords. 

I wonder how this will turn out.

And ned - straight on.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 19, 2011)

BTW, I think most of us are in agreement that we artists have been 'ripping' each other off since the beginning of music. And of course, it's the same in every other artistic genre. Now, copy and paste, that's really stupid. But listening to someone else and then doing your own version? That's as part of music-making today as it's been forever.


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## madbulk (Jul 19, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Jul 19 said:


> BTW, I think most of us are in agreement that we artists have been 'ripping' each other off since the beginning of music. And of course, it's the same in every other artistic genre. Now, copy and paste, that's really stupid. But listening to someone else and then doing your own version? That's as part of music-making today as it's been forever.



Pretty much it.


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## mducharme (Jul 19, 2011)

Agreed, very much


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## stonzthro (Jul 19, 2011)

madbulk @ Tue Jul 19 said:


> I really can't believe he played it at the same tempo and in the same key. That's just asking for it.



+500


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## Udo (Jul 19, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> BTW, I think most of us are in agreement that we artists have been 'ripping' each other off since the beginning of music. And of course, it's the same in every other artistic genre. Now, copy and paste, that's really stupid. But listening to someone else and then doing your own version? That's as part of music-making today as it's been forever.


As Paul Gauguin said: "Art is either plagiarism or revolution".


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## Lex (Jul 20, 2011)

It's questionable if this Cue Heist was done by Jablonsky himself, who knows how many people worked on this score.

But somebody crossed the line when following the temp.

I'm kinda shocked that on a composer forum there are people who are actually debating if this is a straight rip-off or not..

alex


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## MichaelJM (Jul 20, 2011)

Lex @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> I'm kinda shocked that on a composer forum there are people who are actually debating if this is a straight rip-off or not..



Me too. :(


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## Ed (Jul 20, 2011)

Someone posted something a while back that ripped off Zimmers Sherlock theme, anyone remember what that was? That was ridiculously close, but apparently not close enough someone said.


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## Lex (Jul 20, 2011)

Ed @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> Someone posted something a while back that ripped off Zimmers Sherlock theme, anyone remember what that was? That was ridiculously close, but apparently not close enough someone said.



Well legally I'm pretty sure everything is fine here....but come on, if it was already on the temp and you have to do it, have the decency to at least change the key and orchestration and turn it from "an obvious heist" to "an obvious "nod" to.."

I still doubt this was Jablonsky himself...

alex


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## Ed (Jul 20, 2011)

Lex @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> Ed @ Wed Jul 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Someone posted something a while back that ripped off Zimmers Sherlock theme, anyone remember what that was? That was ridiculously close, but apparently not close enough someone said.
> ...



Oh its terrible, its definitely a rip off and as Zack says (though obviously he is biased) it sucks compared with his anyway. 

I do think Jablonsky is talented enough to not have to steal like this, but then how could no one notice or complain about it? Maybe we'll find out at some point


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## JohnG (Jul 20, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ 18th July 2011 said:


> Guys, they both sound like rip-offs!! Seriously, nothing original in either case, although Hemsey's is much better. But Zimmer beats them both in a cage fight. And the melody? starting with 1-2-3-1-3 of the minor key? I can probably find 100 examples in film music. Not that it's bad! I do the simplest stuff all the time, if it works. I just don't think it's all that original, writing very commercial melodies, that is.



I agree with Ned; it's similar in some ways but they are not the same (I like J's better, actually!). It's the tempo, the vamp and the key, but I don't see this as a ripoff.

The melody, is not the same as it develops; I like Dr. J's a lot better, as the trailer music stays stuck on the original drone-y root way too long, and Jablonsky does something with his melody. 

I acknowledge that there is resemblance, but this is not like "300."

There's plenty of resemblance to lots of scores -- "Dave" gets ripped off in most romantic comedies. You can practically hear the temp. The Empire theme in Star Wars is very close in mood, tone, orchestration, etc. to Holst. But thank goodness he wrote it, as he resurrected the orchestra after a decade dominated by horrible quasi-pop, barf-inducing rottenness in film scoring.

It's part of the business.


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## reddognoyz (Jul 20, 2011)

"Don't borrow man, Steal!"

-David Lee Roth


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## madbulk (Jul 20, 2011)

Lex @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> It's questionable if this Cue Heist was done by Jablonsky himself, who knows how many people worked on this score.
> 
> But somebody crossed the line when following the temp.
> 
> ...



It's definitely not a ripoff.
I know what it is and it isn't. As do you. So it's not even about perception really.
I guess we just disagree, what, morally?
(and mine is not the high road, probably, I'm realizing this.


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## Ed (Jul 20, 2011)

I think if I did this I'd feel very bad  Thats good enough for me!


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## choc0thrax (Jul 20, 2011)

Ed @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> I think if I did this I'd feel very bad  Thats good enough for me!



I think I'd have mixed feelings. On one hand I'd feel like crap for doing a ripoff that sounds like something you'd find on a GPO composer review forum but at the same time I'd be psyched that I just helped score TF3 which could mean unsupervised access to the remote control yard and weight room, maybe a couple phone calls to family & attorney.


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## madbulk (Jul 20, 2011)

Ed @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> I think if I did this I'd feel very bad  Thats good enough for me!


Yeah, I get it. I just don't think I'd feel that bad about this. I mean, I hate any conversation with a client that begins with any kind of soundalike premise. But that's for different reasons.
Once I get to the place Ned described so well -- even if the first tune was the temp track -- and that's the one I'm using as my basis -- the building blocks of that tune are not own-able. There's not enough there. So I can't steal it. If I change the notes and the harmony, it's a new tune.

What if the whole cue were played on Omnisphere's Tear Your Head Off? Then it would sound even more identical. Would it be theft then? 
No. The notes and harmony are different.
I _think_ that's my position. I can perhaps be talked out of it.


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## lux (Jul 20, 2011)

Lex @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> I'm kinda shocked that on a composer forum there are people who are actually debating if this is a straight rip-off or not..



Alex, i think thats because people here, being composers, see some similarity to the copyright of the C turnaround dispute. Doesnt seem much a different story here. Short melody with diatonic notes in a sequence heard many times already, as Ned pointed out. So what remains is an arrangement ripoff of a library'ish track.

On a strict point I'm more inclined to think to some unintentional ripoff, even if i know that every clue is against this hypotesis. 

But Its the fact of a strict closeness (same tonality, tempos, arrangement things) which makes me think that its too suspicious, so probably unintentional.

If spoiled as intentional, that would be of pretty bad taste for more than one reason, first and most important being the fact that the composer hasnt been able to build-up a, well, "typical" track in a matter of hours as half people i've heard here would be able to do with actual tools and toys.


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## Ed (Jul 20, 2011)

I think theres a difference between legally qualifying as a rip off and knowing you ripped something off anyway. I'd feel bad getting this close. I dont see how you could accidently get it this close by accident or if you did no one telling you.


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## gsilbers (Jul 20, 2011)

Ed @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> I think if I did this I'd feel very bad  Thats good enough for me!



maybe not much after getting paid about a millions bucks in composing fees.


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## madbulk (Jul 20, 2011)

Ed @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> I think theres a difference between legally qualifying as a rip off and knowing you ripped something off anyway. I'd feel bad getting this close. I dont see how you could accidently get it this close by accident or if you did no one telling you.


And I think the opposite -- that that's the difference between having ripped someone off and not. I'm fine with that bar. In this arena, if it's not actionable, he's not culpable.


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## Ed (Jul 20, 2011)

gsilbers @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> Ed @ Wed Jul 20 said:
> 
> 
> > I think if I did this I'd feel very bad  Thats good enough for me!
> ...



I'd feel even worse! 

Ripping off Goldenthal to the extent Bates did was very bad whenever you do it, but wouldn't have been *so *bad if it was in a cheap amateur film no one will ever watch, but a big budget film costing millions, no way! I'd feel way more scared and paranoid. 



> And I think the opposite -- that that's the difference between having ripped someone off and not. I'm fine with that bar. In this arena, if it's not actionable, he's not culpable.



Yes but again even if it doesn't legally qualify as a rippoff both composers and everyone else knows it is and thats what Im talking about. 

But it happens all the time, here's one I noticed recently from our friend TJ (could very well be Nick now I think about it):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZLz1RgZzeI

The start and entire jaunty feel is a complete rip off of Pirates of the Caribbean and then the theme is the standard chord progression everyone uses and I want to slice my wrists whenever I hear it, which was especially awkward when I ended up using the same progression in something recently. But I do try and do something interesting with it, for my own sanity... So as much as I love TJ, (i dunno maybe its Nick) this track is a lazy 80% Pirates rippoff and the rest is that tired old progression which would be practically a note for note rip off of a tune except so many people have used it. (like in Shrek and Deep Water Blue) So likewise I'd feel bad if I wrote this and I try hard to stop myself going down these roads.


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## madbulk (Jul 20, 2011)

Yeah, I guess that sounds a little like POTC.


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## lux (Jul 20, 2011)

well library writing is typically a ripoff arena,. Most of times because tracks are supposed to replace at cheaper rates themes and songs that libraries'clients wouldnt be able to afford licensing. 

In this specific case is of course different because we speak about a major over-doped international movie success, so knowing that the ripoff has been intentional, well...

Perhaps Jablonsky is a fan for certain publishers in the licensing world, and could have been listening hundreds tracks included this one and ripped off by accident. I once ripped off the friends theme in Predator, I was completely sure i had just a nice new melody. I had to relisten by accident Predator again to spoil the thingg out. Of course the track was just for personal enjoyement, but this type of things may happen.

Really dunno.


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## rpaillot (Jul 20, 2011)

Ed @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> Someone posted something a while back that ripped off Zimmers Sherlock theme, anyone remember what that was? That was ridiculously close, but apparently not close enough someone said.



Are you talking about this ? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_5m3c7wJN4


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## José Herring (Jul 20, 2011)

rpaillot @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> Ed @ Wed Jul 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Someone posted something a while back that ripped off Zimmers Sherlock theme, anyone remember what that was? That was ridiculously close, but apparently not close enough someone said.
> ...



Both were inspired by Nino Rota's work. 

My feeling is, if you write something that nobody wants to steel, then you need to work harder and get better.

José


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## Lex (Jul 20, 2011)

Ed @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> gsilbers @ Wed Jul 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Wed Jul 20 said:
> ...



Doesn't sound like Thomas to me...

alex


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## Lex (Jul 20, 2011)

madbulk @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> Lex @ Wed Jul 20 said:
> 
> 
> > It's questionable if this Cue Heist was done by Jablonsky himself, who knows how many people worked on this score.
> ...



yeah I guess we just disagree....and probably hear things differently.

And if composers think this way, then it REALLY doesn't matter, cause honestly except for a 100 or so Hamsey fans nobody gives a shit...average TF3 fan wouldnt even understand what we r talking about...

Next time I start a cue I'll just go trough your web site and take something, that RPG thingie sounds nice, think I'll take that one....saves me the trouble of thinking what to write...

alex


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## madbulk (Jul 20, 2011)

Doesn't sound like TJ to me either.

No no Alex, I'm talking about OTHER people's stuff. 

I don't think we hear things differently for purposes of this conversation. What's to not hear? It's plain as day.
And btw, the only reason I'm still going back and forth with this is I'm considering the validity of my position. And I respect you and everybody here and value the opportunity.
So, when I say, "It's definitely not a ripoff." I am being insistent, but I'm not under any delusion that I'll be the arbiter.


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## TheUnfinished (Jul 20, 2011)

This probably won't help, but it's quite interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tQpAPMT_Rc&feature=related

Some of it's a bit spurious, but Jablonsky appears again. And Zimmer, even if he's copying himself.


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## cc64 (Jul 20, 2011)

rpaillot @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> Ed @ Wed Jul 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Someone posted something a while back that ripped off Zimmers Sherlock theme, anyone remember what that was? That was ridiculously close, but apparently not close enough someone said.
> ...



Well if someone was inspired by another, i would say like José, they both intensely listened to the italian school and more power to them, but as to what Ed says, he has it reversed, Zimmer would have been the culprit, not Coulais...Vidocq 2001, Sherlock(Zimmer) 2009.

Honestly neither would be judiciable. Very inspired by..? Sure! I seriously doubt that anyone on this forum or any other forum for that matter could seriously claim that they are above that... Even Williams is not above that.

As to that whole Hemsey/Jablonsky thing IMO Hemsey should keep this private, i find it's not very elegant to bash on a fellow composer in public even if you are right and even if he is richer, especially when you're a pro and know how fast things happen in this business... Maybe one day Hemsey will have to write 2 hours of music in 3 weeks...

I'm not presenting this as a license to steel but it's not as if someone had copied note for note the love theme of Cinema Paradiso(Morricone) and tried to get away with it here...

I mean, come on, Spiccati ostinati in a minor key?!? Please...

My 2 canadian centavos.

And for the record i'm with John on this, i actually think that Jablonsky's "version" sounds a lot better (o) 

Claude


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## Ed (Jul 20, 2011)

TheUnfinished @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> This probably won't help, but it's quite interesting.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tQpAPMT_Rc&feature=related
> 
> Some of it's a bit spurious, but Jablonsky appears again. And Zimmer, even if he's copying himself.



haha! Thats fantastic, though theres a couple of examples that aren't too fair. 

And yes *rpaillot *that is the one I was talking about! Its insane how much of a rip off that is, *much *worse than this one is. The only thing different about it is the tune is slightly different

Someone needs to show Zack this so he doesn't feel so special :lol:


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## Ed (Jul 20, 2011)

cc64 @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> I mean, come on, Spiccati ostinati in a minor key?!? Please...



Is that really all you hear in Mind Heist and the Sherlock Holmes music???


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## cc64 (Jul 20, 2011)

Ed @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> cc64 @ Wed Jul 20 said:
> 
> 
> > I mean, come on, Spiccati ostinati in a minor key?!? Please...
> ...



Hi Ed,

well personallyl i wouldn't compare the Sherlock Holmes piece debate and the Mind Heist piece debate, to me the latter is a more generic type of music that uses certain devices, spiccatti, driving rythms, catchy minor French Horn FF melody etc... I'm moved by both Hemsey's and Jablonski's versions because i really like this well-produced type of action music, i'm just saying that there's not as much matter for sueing anyone in this type of cue as there would be if someone copied the Schindler's list Theme note for note...Maybe i'm naive, idealist, old-fashioned...Dunno

But my real point was that Hemsey doesn't come off as very professional to me bitching about a fellow composer on his blog, if he thinks he has a case well he should act privately and not whine on the internet, what does he wish to gain...We don't see Thomas Newman whining on his blog about how much he gets ripped-off. 

Best,


Claude


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## choc0thrax (Jul 20, 2011)

cc64 @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> Ed @ Wed Jul 20 said:
> 
> 
> > cc64 @ Wed Jul 20 said:
> ...



Thomas Newman is too busy swimming in cash and conditioning his lustrous hair.


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## MichaelJM (Jul 20, 2011)

cc64 @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> But my real point was that Hemsey doesn't come off as very professional to me bitching about a fellow composer on his blog, if he thinks he has a case well he should act privately and not whine on the internet, what does he wish to gain...We don't see Thomas Newman whining on his blog about how much he gets ripped-off.


I thought the blog post was well written, and it didn't come off as whiney to me. Is it unprofessional? Well, from Zack's point of view, it's unprofessional to plagiarize another person's music. And as the poster above alludes to, Zack isn't Thomas Newman.

I think Zack feels confident enough in himself, and his music, to not care whether this hurts his career. He'd rather have some integrity and stick up for what he believes. I don't speak for Zack though, so you'd have to ask him about his motives.

I don't think he would work for/with Jablonsky anyway after this, unless of course Jablonsky chose to speak with Zack and they came to an understanding. But so far Jablonsky has chosen to be silent on the issue. From Zack's point of view, he was wronged, and a line was crossed. Why does he deserve criticism for speaking out about that? This stopped being a private matter when Jablonsky's track played in theaters across the world.

Did Jablonsky plagiarize, or was he merely influenced? Personally, I feel it's the former, but that's up for debate, and Zack readily admits that. What I don't think is up for debate, is that plagiarism is wrong. Whether the case is actionable is beside the point. It comes down to motive; only Steve knows, and we can only speculate based on what we hear.


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## madbulk (Jul 20, 2011)

It's not beside the point. If it's plagiarism, it's both wrong and actionable, like slander or libel.


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## Daniel James (Jul 21, 2011)

Not being funny...but Hemsey totally stole the BRRRRR idea from me!!!

Proof:
http://soundcloud.com/hybridtwo/march-of-the-titan

Dan

p.s Of course I'm only joking xD


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## Mike Connelly (Jul 22, 2011)

JonFairhurst @ Tue Jul 19 said:


> The smallish orchestra and relatively dry mix will frighten any young moviegoer!



And don't forget the odd time signatures.

Cool to hear the Goldsmith track although I don't hear much similarity to the Superman score.


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