# How Do You Simplify/Unify The Dozens of Different Reverbs from Different Instrument Libraries?



## DJames (Jun 6, 2021)

As I'm relatively new to digital composing, I've hit a brick wall with how to deal with all these different reverbs that load with every instrument. 

What do you all do when you're using different instruments in Kontakt, Engine, Spitfire, etc.. and they all load with their own reverbs as the default? Obviously, they don't match when combined, but they do make the instruments sound nice _individually_, especially in Eduardo Tarilonte's fantasy/world libraries, which I already own a lot of. Do you turn all the reverbs off and then use a master reverb in Cubase somewhere else? How can I best unify the reverbs so they share the same space and sound "together" without wrecking their intended sound?

...and are the reverbs that come with Cubase even good? What reverbs work best for fantasy/world music anyways?

Thanks for any help!


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## mybadmemory (Jun 6, 2021)

Most people turn off all the included reverbs and add their own reverb/s of choice to bus channels to which they send the other tracks. The simplest setup is one reverb on one bus, and just control the send level for each individual track. Next level is using two reverbs. One IR to match the rooms/spaces of different libraries, and a second algorithmic one to add a tail. Third level is to use different reverb setups for different sections of the orchestra on separate busses, etc. It can get complex, and some people collect reverbs just as other collect sample libraries. 

I’d say if you’re a beginner, if you mostly use one library, or if you don’t really hear anything that sounds wrong, don’t bother yet. Compose some music instead. 

If you want to dip your toes, turn off all the included ones. Get Valhalla room for $50. Put in on a bus and send all tracks to it. Start with a preset and adjust the send level to your liking.


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## Zedcars (Jun 6, 2021)

This video by Christian Henson and Jake Jackson is kind of related and might be helpful…


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## Hywel (Jun 6, 2021)

Not specifically orchestrally related but I did recently have a problem when I sent some files to a sound mixer... He got back to me saying that the snare drum track still had reverb on it - these are the stages I went through...

1. I had already killed the sends to the drum reverb FX channels within the DAW which is all I had assumed I had to do... wrong.
2. Next, I killed the reverb within the snare drum kontakt VST instrument itself. Not all instruments "declare" they are using reverb on the main screen. OK, I know I should be using my ears...
3. Finally after he still complained, I realised I had sent him the "all in one" snare drum track with the overheads and room mic tracks mixed in. So I separated these out into their individual tracks. Phew, I think I've succeeded.

What a lot of work for just a simple straight forward snare drum track. I am but a simple soul at heart and this was just a little too complex for me...


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## mybadmemory (Jun 6, 2021)

Also from 17:31 in this video:


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## DJames (Jun 7, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> Most people turn off all the included reverbs and add their own reverb/s of choice to bus channels to which they send the other tracks. The simplest setup is one reverb on one bus, and just control the send level for each individual track. Next level is using two reverbs. One IR to match the rooms/spaces of different libraries, and a second algorithmic one to add a tail. Third level is to use different reverb setups for different sections of the orchestra on separate busses, etc. It can get complex, and some people collect reverbs just as other collect sample libraries.
> 
> I’d say if you’re a beginner, if you mostly use one library, or if you don’t really hear anything that sounds wrong, don’t bother yet. Compose some music instead.
> 
> If you want to dip your toes, turn off all the included ones. Get Valhalla room for $50. Put in on a bus and send all tracks to it. Start with a preset and adjust the send level to your liking.


This is very helpful, thank you @mybadmemory 

I took a look at the Valhalla Room reverb you suggested. It says it is an algorithmic reverb. Does that mean I still need to find a convolution reverb too? Or does it cover both those needs? I'm willing to spend the money to do this right. Is there some kind of all-in-one plugin that covers both an IR and algorithmic reverb?


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## DJames (Jun 7, 2021)

Hywel said:


> Not specifically orchestrally related but I did recently have a problem when I sent some files to a sound mixer... He got back to me saying that the snare drum track still had reverb on it - these are the stages I went through...
> 
> 1. I had already killed the sends to the drum reverb FX channels within the DAW which is all I had assumed I had to do... wrong.
> 2. Next, I killed the reverb within the snare drum kontakt VST instrument itself. Not all instruments "declare" they are using reverb on the main screen. OK, I know I should be using my ears...
> ...


Hi @Hywel . Do you leave all the mixing/mastering work for someone else and just focus on the composing aspect? What's the overall process like?

I love composing but the thought of mixing/mastering kills all the fun, mostly because I have no clue what I'm doing. I don't understand compression and EQing beyond the very basics.


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## mybadmemory (Jun 7, 2021)

DJames said:


> This is very helpful, thank you @mybadmemory
> 
> I took a look at the Valhalla Room reverb you suggested. It says it is an algorithmic reverb. Does that mean I still need to find a convolution reverb too? Or does it cover both those needs? I'm willing to spend the money to do this right. Is there some kind of all-in-one plugin that covers both an IR and algorithmic reverb?


I wouldn’t say you need anything. You can do perfectly adequate orchestral music already with the reverbs in the plugins, or the reverbs in your DAW. 

If you want to move past the built in ones, you can either start simple with just one reverb and simply adjust the send levels.

Or if you really want to fiddle with matching rooms, you could start with one IR for room matching and one algorithmic for tail.

I’m sure cubase already have both variants (I’m a Logic user), so you shouldn’t really need to buy anything to get going.

Valhalla was just a suggestion for a good price efficient algorithmic one. I’m not really into IR’s ones enough to recommend something there. 

But don’t overthink it. Just focus on the music and add some splosh where you feel it’s missing.


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## Hywel (Jun 7, 2021)

DJames said:


> Hi @Hywel . Do you leave all the mixing/mastering work for someone else and just focus on the composing aspect? What's the overall process like?
> 
> I love composing but the thought of mixing/mastering kills all the fun, mostly because I have no clue what I'm doing. I don't understand compression and EQing beyond the very basics.


I am but a lowly hobbyist... I have however been composing most of my life, the majority of it with Cubase as my DAW. My challenge over the last year or so was to up my game and try and achieve "broadcast quality standard" instrumental tracks. Part of this process involved trying to learn the ins and outs of mixing.
As a sideline, I have also been writing songs with lyricists and it is one of these that a vocal performer has grasped and is running with, hence my preparing tracks for a pro mixer chap.


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## doctoremmet (Jun 7, 2021)

DJames said:


> This is very helpful, thank you @mybadmemory
> 
> I took a look at the Valhalla Room reverb you suggested. It says it is an algorithmic reverb. Does that mean I still need to find a convolution reverb too? Or does it cover both those needs? I'm willing to spend the money to do this right. Is there some kind of all-in-one plugin that covers both an IR and algorithmic reverb?


There is absolutely no “need” to have a convolution reverb next to Valhalla Room.
It can sometimes come in handy (depending on your “reverberation strategy” that is) to be able to use IRs (impulse responses, “recorded reverbs in actual spaces”) as a reverb. For instance, a sample library vendor may record all their stuff on a certain sound stage, and make IRs available of said stage. In that case you could use a convolution reverb to place “other samples recorded elsewhere or maybe dry recordings “in the same space” using a convolution reverb. Mind you, a LOT of this is just theoretical BS really, because in most cases you won’t find a good IR. This is not to say that convolution reverbs can’t sound very nice.

If you want to get your feet wet and experiment with convolution reverb, I recommend getting the free Meldaproductions pack of plugins. It is a very good set of utilities and has MConvolutionEZ, a cool sounding IR player. It also has MCharmVerb, which is a pretty good algo reverb. I also like Waves IR1, which comes with a decent amount of IRs for $30. Finally, you may want to get Liquidsonics Seventh Heaven, which is an IR based reverb, replicating the (algo) reverbs of Bricasti hardware. The sound of 7H (the core version is $69 IIRC) is just... lovely. It doesn’t “load” IRs though.

But honestly, Valhalla Room is a pretty good reverb. While you’re spending money anyway, allow me to kindly suggest to make sure to grab the Izotope Loyalty Bundle, if that’s what it’s called. For $49 it comes filled to the brim with all sorts of useful stuff. But it includes R2 by Exponential Audio, which is an absolutely top tier reverb (worth the $49 alone).


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## doctoremmet (Jun 7, 2021)

__





Convology XT Free Plugin - Audio Plugin - Avid


Convolution Reverb Plugin—Includes 70 Impulse Response Files!




www.avid.com













MConvolutionEZ


An easy-to-use highly optimized convolution reverb



www.meldaproduction.com


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## doctoremmet (Jun 7, 2021)

Convolution reverb impulses


I created this thread to list all libraries of impulses for convolution reverbs. Post your links below and I will update this first post! Free GN’s Personal Lexicon 480L Impulse Responses by Fokke van Saane OpenAir LDS Lexicon 224XL Samplicity M7 IR Studio Nord Analog Reverbs Waves IR...




vi-control.net


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## Rasoul Morteza (Jun 7, 2021)

You don't have to think about it if you adopt a timbral based approach to how you create your sound palette and overall compositional process. Using tens if not hundreds of samples from different spaces makes me wonder if the idea of a "unified space" makes any sense. I'm listening to a lot of tracks out there and none of them give me the impression of a physical room, but that everything is cohesive because the textures/timbres fuse well. Once you pick and match your sounds based on their textures everything else becomes irrelevant, simplifying the overall process. Go beyond stereo mixes and this approach will become even more useful.

And I still don't understand the logic behind buying an expensive library recorded at a signature hall just to put external reverb on the super dry signals... defeats one of the main purposes IMO.

Cubase has some nice stuff, although I would suggest having at least one decent IR reverb and a good algorithmic one, use them together, experiment.


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## rgames (Jun 7, 2021)

I wouldn't worry about it. Do what sounds good. This isn't a technical process; it's an aesthetic choice.

FYI I've bought probably a dozen reverbs over the years. Any one can sound like any other in a mix unless you're going for some kind of special effect that requires some particualr reverb with some extra knob or filter or mod source. But for general reverb, the ones included with your DAW are perfectly fine. I use them all the time and I've never had anyone say "I don't like that reverb."

Plug-in effects, especially reverbs, EQs and compressors, are those things that everybody buys too many of before realizing they're all basically the same (again, with exceptions for some sound-design-type uses). The more important factor is the interface; not the sound.

I even own two copies of two different EQs because I bought them twice on sale, the second time not realizing that I already owned it.

rgames


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 8, 2021)

rgames said:


> I wouldn't worry about it. Do what sounds good. This isn't a technical process; it's an aesthetic choice.
> 
> FYI I've bought probably a dozen reverbs over the years. Any one can sound like any other in a mix unless you're going for some kind of special effect that requires some particualr reverb with some extra knob or filter or mod source. But for general reverb, the ones included with your DAW are perfectly fine. I use them all the time and I've never had anyone say "I don't like that reverb."
> 
> ...


Well said. I've read some posts on reverb usage in the forum that makes my head spin Lol.....too many "rules". I have gone back to basically what you mentioned, which is if sounds good, then it is. I've also shelved many of my reverbs. My primary reverbs now (for nearly everything) are Cinematic Rooms, Seventh Heaven, Logic's Chromaverb, and whatever is built into a certain VI (ie; Play, Cinebrass, etc). I think too many people overthink reverb application.


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## DJames (Jun 8, 2021)

Thanks for the help and advice. I ended up taking a mini online course on Mixing and Mastering in Cubase to figure out what all this "creating a group bus for reverb" entailed. I honestly had no idea what y'all were talking about (lol) but now I get it! Had I not asked the question, I wouldn't even know where to begin.

This forum is great!! Thank you!


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## bill5 (Jun 11, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> don’t overthink it.


This should be on a plaque in every professional and home studio. Maybe with "don't overdo it" and "trust your ears" added. 

Don't do stuff just for the sake of doing stuff, or because you think everyone else is. Some of the best sounds I got sounded best with zero reverb...or at least, didn't sound any better.


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## dgburns (Jun 12, 2021)

The reverbs in Cubase are very very good.

When trying to mesh all the sound sources and the discrepancies in the ambience, just remember that the differences can be used to your advantage, they don’t have to be fighting each other, nor are you forced into trying to make them sound like they come from the same room. 

Vive la difference!

A discretionary use of an algo verb for the tail, like VR can help. You’d be surprised on how little an amount you really need.


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## dentpuzz (Sep 4, 2021)

DJames said:


> This is very helpful, thank you @mybadmemory
> 
> I took a look at the Valhalla Room reverb you suggested. It says it is an algorithmic reverb. Does that mean I still need to find a convolution reverb too? Or does it cover both those needs? I'm willing to spend the money to do this right. Is there some kind of all-in-one plugin that covers both an IR and algorithmic reverb?





This is very helpful and 100% ValhallaRoom


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## Junolab (Sep 5, 2021)

If you're new, don't buy any plugins. Use what you have an learn what you lack.

Getting Valhalla won't give you better sounds if you don't know how to control it. Better learn that with your stock plugins.

Personally not fan of Valhalla's reverb, but you can always try out a demo. Just don't think a bought plugin will fix any sound for you.


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## Oxytoxine (Sep 6, 2021)

I use the combination of Precedence (room positioning tool) and Breeze (algorithmic reverb that you can link with Precedence) from 2C Audio. This allows you to easily mix different libraries recorded in different rooms. This made my life so much easier than trying to achieve the same in the "conventional" way (combining different verbs for ERs and tails, simulate depth with EQ and / or other stuff etc.). Highly recommended for beginners, as you can get acceptable results fast, but can also grow with these tools while learning / gaining experience. Good luck!


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## TomislavEP (Sep 6, 2021)

Most of the time, I use Valhalla Room on dry sounds or for putting different libraries into a cohesive space, particularly if they're recorded fairy dry and with the reverb that you can turn off if necessary. I do, however, have a number of libraries by Spitfire recorded in the same space; I usually don't add any additional reverb to those if I don't use additional instruments.

What I especially like about Valhalla Room is its great sound that is also quite colorless in nature. In general, I prefer using algorithmic reverbs for adding space while using the IR-based ones mainly for sound design; often inside the libraries that come with IR's.


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## JohnG (Sep 6, 2021)

DJames said:


> How can I best unify the reverbs so they share the same space and sound "together" without wrecking their intended sound?


You don't have to do this, really. You can, of course, but why would you wreck that "perfect reverb-delay" on your presets by eliminating them in a vain attempt to 'put everything in the same room.'

I'm hugely skeptical of even attempting this. The samples are recorded in all kinds of places, with all kinds of distance between the instrument(s) and the mics; some edited for noise, some not, some EQ'd, some not.

If you listen with headphones on to any hybrid score it's amazing the constellation of different treatments you can hear.

Just trust your own ears.


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## Oxytoxine (Sep 6, 2021)

JohnG said:


> You don't have to do this, really. You can, of course, but why would you wreck that "perfect reverb-delay" on your presets by eliminating them in a vain attempt to 'put everything in the same room.'
> 
> I'm hugely skeptical of even attempting this. The samples are recorded in all kinds of places, with all kinds of distance between the instrument(s) and the mics; some edited for noise, some not, some EQ'd, some not.
> 
> ...


Don’t want to derail this thread, but just would like to mention how extremely profound and important this advice is! 

When I started out (not long ago, still a beginner), I was paralyzed by all the complicated stuff many people are doing to „bring the samples into the same room“, to mix wet and dry samples etc. I read a lot, tried to learn, but always thought all the others have some magic knowledge I am missing and that I will never be able to master all this stuff. I was under the impression that, for an experienced pair of ears, my dabblings would already fall short not only from a musical perspective, but also because I thought that everyone (with the exception of me) would immediately hear that I amateurishly mixed different libraries. In my previous musical adventures („pop“ music and diverse styles of EDM), I had much more freedom because it was not about achieving „realism“ as the highest goal. 

It did not even occur to me that I could also do exactly what John mentioned - listen to my own ears and trust my own perception! And of course also learning, learning, learning. 

I got so frustrated that it sucked all the joy out of making music for me - I wanted to learn to compose etc. and not get lost in a rabbit hole of endlessly investigation all the reverbs and techniques etc. 

Sure, there are masterpieces of art out there where one wonders how it was possible to achieve such a sense of coherence, and of course we should strive to get better all the time. I admire people that are able to do that, but ask yourself: people listening on crap devices to compressed music on soundcloud, YouTube or whatever - will they really think: „Oh, very nice composition, but unfortunately the choice of a wrong setting in the verbs or something completely destroys everything“? Not my experience. And in case you really make it and get booked for major series / films etc., samples most of the time do not land in the final product. 

Don’t get me wrong: Of course your question taps into a very important topic and there is a lot to learn. Of course wrong choices CAN ruin everything, but as John mentioned: trust your ears - with a little bit of experience you will be able to spot the „no-gos“. 

And to be honest: in the meanwhile, with just a bit of experience, even I notice stuff in famous songs / songtracks that would be criticized here for wrong reverb choices, not buttery smooth legatos, or whatever - I think many of us suffer from „déformation professionelle“ (don’t know the english expression) and don’t see the forest for the trees any more. This forum is extremely helpful, but the point I am trying to make is: 

a) don’t get paralyzed by reading all this stuff (take what is helpful to you)

b) listen to the experienced people like John and trust your ears 

Good luck and sorry for the interruption (I just had this epiphany myself and could not resist to share).


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## bill5 (Sep 6, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> Most people turn off all the included reverbs and add their own reverb/s


Wondered how common that was. I never got a VI adding effects as part of the VI (i.e. as add-on controls). It's like buying a saw at Lowes and it includes a order of french fries. If I want an effect, I'll go to the experts.


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## bill5 (Sep 6, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> There is absolutely no “need” to have a convolution reverb next to Valhalla Room.


There is really no need to have a convolution reverb at all...in fact not even a real need for ANY reverb necessarily. Of course they can help in many ways, but it depends on the specifics, and I think too often most of us (yeah I've done it) reach for it out of habit. I try not to though, as I'm just not a fan of doing something without a clear need or reason. If it sounds good without any effects, I'm done. Sometimes adding effects is like painting a picture and always thinking it'll be better if you keep adding more......


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## jcrosby (Sep 6, 2021)

Oxytoxine said:


> I use the combination of Precedence (room positioning tool) and Breeze (algorithmic reverb that you can link with Precedence) from 2C Audio. This allows you to easily mix different libraries recorded in different rooms. This made my life so much easier than trying to achieve the same in the "conventional" way (combining different verbs for ERs and tails, simulate depth with EQ and / or other stuff etc.). Highly recommended for beginners, as you can get acceptable results fast, but can also grow with these tools while learning / gaining experience. Good luck!


*I'd like to toss out a friendly red flag to mac users about Precedence / Breeze 2*...

The developer hasn't updated the plugin for 10.15 and beyond. The manual bluntly says it was in the works when the last version was released 2 years ago... _*"Mojave (14) and higher. X.15 Catalina was announced as of writing this manual, and will be tested and validated."*_

I almost bought Breeze but after messaging the developer I personally felt it was wise to refrain as I got the impression they're not all that bothered about exploring a bug I've been dealing with, or answering questions about various issues raised on KVR...

Precedence has some small bugs like presets may not save in the plugin's browser, (an issue I experience). Whereas some users wind up with a preset list completely out of order and/or scrambled... (Something I haven't experienced, but a search of KVR will reveal it's common enough to be wary....)

I've been messaging them about fixing bugs for several weeks now and they have little enthusiasm for addressing the issue so far. I'm not saying they won't, but one of their replies was basically:_ it's not that big of a problem if_ _you use Logic's preset browser_...
(Irrelevant as I also use Live for sound design and simpler cues...)

Meanwhile Catalina's 2 year old now, and Big Sur's about to be replaced by a new OS... Assuming they stay behind the ball before the next version's released, that will make Precedence (and Breeze) behind 3 versions of macos...

Here's the error I have which you might want to look out for if demoing Precedence on 10.15 or later...






For mac users - demo before buying, and check thoroughly for any of the issues above or listed in the thread below...









KVR Forum: 2CAudio Precedence | 1.5 | Move Out Of Flatland. Take Precedence. - Page 36 - Effects Forum


KVR Audio Forum - 2CAudio Precedence | 1.5 | Move Out Of Flatland. Take Precedence. - Page 36 - Effects Forum




www.kvraudio.com






(Sorry to have to quote you @Oxytoxine ... I realize it's not directly related to you per se... Just wanted to give a heads up to any mac users thinking about either...)


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## doctoremmet (Sep 6, 2021)

bill5 said:


> in fact not even a real need for ANY reverb necessarily


This is where we disagree. Without a reverb it becomes really difficult if not impossible to make proper mixes and spatialize instruments.


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## Oxytoxine (Sep 7, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> *I'd like to toss out a friendly red flag to mac users about Precedence / Breeze 2*...
> 
> The developer hasn't updated the plugin for 10.15 and beyond. The manual bluntly says it was in the works when the last version was released 2 years ago... _*"Mojave (14) and higher. X.15 Catalina was announced as of writing this manual, and will be tested and validated."*_
> 
> ...


No worries, and thank you very much for pointing these issues out! 

I bought the Breeze and Precedence combo maybe a year ago, was fully unaware of the issues you mention - and luckily never experienced them myself. But this seems serious - no updates for such a long time and especially not fixing such long standing and well documented bugs is not encouraging and indeed a red flag. 

I now feel bad having recommended such plugins and would not have bought them myself had I known what you just wrote, so sorry to the O.P. 

My personal experience with the developer was nice - he responded promptly and was very helpful, but this was not about the issues you mentioned. 

I will read the whole linked thread and test this out tonight and wonder why this stuff never occurred to me (probably because I just have them sitting in my templates and do not mess around with them much once I’ve found settings I like).

I could cry - the workflow and in my opinion also quality (soundwise) of the plugins for my purposes would be absolutely fantastic. 

Anyway: thanks for bringing these problems to our attention!


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## BassClef (Sep 7, 2021)

Just a hobbyist here... After trying some pretty complex reverb setups, I have now simplified things, working in Logic.

1) I turn off all reverbs built into the instruments. (if they have one)

2) I have a bus set up with SpacesII convolution reverb. This reverb is a "sound stage" type IR with a relatively short tail, and 100% wet. All Instruments are routed to this bus so their sends can be individually adjusted as needed. This of course could also be easily done with an algorithmic reverb!

3) I have another bus set up with ChromaVerb algorithmic reverb. This reverb is a "concert hall" type with a longer tail than the convolution one, and is 100% wet. All instruments are routed to this reverb as well, so they can be individually adjusted. 

Although I have my sections grouped (strings, wood, brass, etc.) I do not use the same amount of reverb for each, as some instruments are much wetter than others and need less reverb. This of course depends on where they were recorded. Also, short articulations usually get less reverb. 

In setting up my template, I simply turn off the second reverb bus (long tail) and try to adjust all instrument reverb sends to the short tail reverb, so that they sound like they are in the same place. (mostly listening to decay time) Then I turn the long tail reverb back on, and make adjustments there, varying the individual instruments send amounts to move instruments further forward or back.

However, I would like to try this same setup, but using Liquid Sonics "Cinematic Rooms" for both reverb buses!


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