# Negating pre-pan



## bryla (Dec 12, 2009)

What does panning in Cubase not give you? If it's just a matter of inches, panning should do the trick. If you want something on the left side centered, then try a stere-tool or swap sides, if it has to go to the right, and the use pan.


----------



## hbuus (Dec 12, 2009)

Ok, I was asking because I thought panning a pre-panned stereo signal would somehow screw things up.

Thanks  

Henrik


----------



## theheresy (Dec 12, 2009)

can someone tell me which of the major libraries are pre-panned..I have most of them yet don't even know for 100% which are prepanned or not as I pan them all myself anyway and never noticed a difference :shock: 

I heard EWQL Symph. Gold is prepanned...I'm assuming VSL is not, how about symphobia and LASS?


----------



## bryla (Dec 12, 2009)

Which do you have?

Henrik: As I said if it's a matter of +/- 45 degrees I have never experienced problems. Can you post a clip, where it goes wrong for you?


----------



## P.T. (Dec 12, 2009)

I depends on the sample.

Consider a stereo sample that has the sound panned hard left with reverb on he right.

If you try to pan it so that the main sound is centered you will in effect be lowering the left (dry sound) and raising the volume on the right side (reverb).

This will move the sound, but change the balance between wet and dry. The sound will als be lower in volume.

If the sound is just panned to the left with nothing on the right then panning it to the center will work, but the volume will be lower which is easy enough to fix.

You may have to make the sound mono and then pan it.


----------



## bryla (Dec 12, 2009)

hmmm P.T.

I have yet to see a sample with dry sound on left and reverb on right. That would sound completely unnatural and result in everything hard panned, and the only way to do this is artificially in a sequencer/mixer. This does not happen in real life, when you record an orchestra.

Same with dry sound on left and nothing on right. The rest you write heavily rely on these two scenarios, so I won't comment on that.


----------



## Hannes_F (Dec 12, 2009)

theheresy @ Sat Dec 12 said:


> can someone tell me which of the major libraries are pre-panned..I have most of them yet don't even know for 100% which are prepanned or not as I pan them all myself anyway and never noticed a difference :shock:



You are sure your libraries are legal?

Usually somebody that has enough money for "most of the major libraries" also owns adequate monitoring.


----------



## theheresy (Dec 12, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Sat Dec 12 said:


> theheresy @ Sat Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > can someone tell me which of the major libraries are pre-panned..I have most of them yet don't even know for 100% which are prepanned or not as I pan them all myself anyway and never noticed a difference :shock:
> ...


Are you sure yours are legal? What are you the library police? It's usually the first one to point the finger that is guilty. I'd like to see what you got in that hard drive of yours :roll:


----------



## Hannes_F (Dec 12, 2009)

theheresy @ Sat Dec 12 said:


> Hannes_F @ Sat Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > theheresy @ Sat Dec 12 said:
> ...



Yes, all my libraries and programs are legal. Go figure.


----------



## bryla (Dec 12, 2009)

Hannes I thought of the exact same thing.  spending a lot of money on most of the major libraries and not know, not have read anything and not hear! if they are pre-panned.


----------



## bryla (Dec 12, 2009)

hey I'm 22!


----------



## Hannes_F (Dec 13, 2009)

Pzy-Clone @ Sun Dec 13 said:


> well, perhaps it is better to be less smug and presumptuous , and actualy answer the mans question instead of mocking him?
> Not everyone has the prerequisite skills or experience that you take for granted. Shocking prospect, i know. :lol:



No, this is not at all about mocking any questions. As you might remember I try to help in every aspect that I can ... normally.

But if somebody disregards developers and thinks he can get free support for cracked libraries here I think he is abusing the friendliness in this forum and that is where my tolerance stops.


----------



## hbuus (Dec 13, 2009)

I've just recorded eight timpani-hits with various combinations of pan + narrowed stereo width.
I meant to compare them, and probably upload them also for you guys to hear.

And then...

I suddenly notice...

I'm using a round robin-patch!

Hehe! 

Will post something in a little while, need to redo this of course!
Thanks for replying so far, everybody.

Henrik


----------



## bryla (Dec 13, 2009)

Well RR shouldn't really have anything to do with it, since the play sits the same place....

unless you use the timpani with placement round-robin


----------



## hbuus (Dec 13, 2009)

Ok, I have uploaded some files to this folder on box.net:
http://www.box.net/shared/e12853u5i3

First is the timpani as it sounds default, that is, centered and with no reduction in stereo spread.

Then, while still being centered, the stereo spread of the timpani is reduced first by 25%, then by 50%, 75% and 100% (= mono).
EDIT: This is done with the Stereo Modeller plug-in in Kontakt 3.

Next, I go back to having no stereo spread, and then pan the default timpani to L53.

The next files show how the timpani sounds panned to L53 while having its stereo spread reduced by 25, 50, 75 or 100%, just as before.

I hope this is explained well enough.

What do you guys think about these example-mp3s?

Henrik

PS. Thomas: Well, there is a difference in sound between the various audio files with the RR instrument patch. That difference is not there when I pick this non-RR patch.


----------



## bryla (Dec 13, 2009)

Okay. I'm on a crappy laptop right now, will listen in a few hours, but just to clarify: Cubase goes from L100 to R100 right? so L53 i halfway to the far left? Other sequencers measure from L63 - R64. Then L53 is almost as far left as possible.


----------



## hbuus (Dec 13, 2009)

Thanks. I'm curious to hear your opinion.

Yes, Cubase goes from L100 to R100.
So does Kontakt's pan, which I've used here.

Henrik


----------



## Hannes_F (Dec 13, 2009)

Henrik,

of all the panned examples I would use either the "nospread" or the "25 %" version. The others are too extemely mono.

Here are some stereo tools that I found to be interesting:

Stereo Panner (by Kelly Industries)
for quick channel swapping or monoizing

Stereo Tool by Flux
http://www.fluxhome.com

Stereo Pose by Theodor Krueger
http://www.theodorkrueger.com

Over all the l53 shift is already quite extreme. I would try these settings with Theo's tool:

Width 85 %
Pan L 13%

For me this is already in the left back corner of the imaginary soundstage.


----------



## theheresy (Dec 13, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Sat Dec 12 said:


> theheresy @ Sat Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Hannes_F @ Sat Dec 12 said:
> ...



Is everything else on your hard drive legal? Is there any videos or pictures perhaps.......? Hmmmmmmmmm? Are you sure? Maybe we need to look into you.
8)


----------



## bryla (Dec 13, 2009)

Get of this thread theheresy, if you don't have anything constructive to say - and yes, if you have cracked libraries, please don't come to this forum for help on them.


----------



## germancomponist (Dec 13, 2009)

There are so many reasons to buy this or that library. I do not know one person who buys a lib without knowing what he buys. 

*theheresy*, if your libs are legal, just read first the manuals before asking such questions... .

If your libas are not legal you aren`t welcome here, you know!


----------



## theheresy (Dec 13, 2009)

Um what? There's one malicious and slanderous accusation that I have 'cracked' libraries and now everyone is attacking me with rancorous tone like "get out of this thread?" For the record no I don't have cracked libraries but thanks Hannes_F for turning everyone against me for asking an innocent question (just because I was too lazy to read tons of manuals) by unjustifiably slandering me against everyone on the site, what a noble and mature way to conduct yourself and help people out Hannes_F, you should be ashamed of yourself.


----------



## hbuus (Dec 14, 2009)

Thanks, Hannes.
Those are interesting links, amazing I didn't come across that Stereo Pose VST on my own.
I'm going to experiment with that and other stuff today, I think.
As for panning, it is good to hear your advice also.
I will stick to not narrowing stuff too much.

What about solo instruments, I read that they can be set to mono for better placement in the mix, or?

*

As for cracked software and such:
It is fine to talk about it, however perhaps in a seperate thread from now on? Thanks.

Henrik


----------



## Hannes_F (Dec 14, 2009)

hbuus @ Mon Dec 14 said:


> Thanks, Hannes.
> Those are interesting links, amazing I didn't come across that Stereo Pose VST on my own.
> I'm going to experiment with that and other stuff today, I think.
> As for panning, it is good to hear your advice also.
> I will stick to not narrowing stuff too much.



Henrik, these timpani samples are recorded in a hall which means that there are reflections from the left and and the right wall in the signal. So if you narrow that too much you are pressing the side walls of your virtual stage together and get a "narrow" sound. What makes things worse is that the reflections come from a set of narrow walls but with the delay that wider walls would have, so the result sounds somehow warped, at least this is how it sounds here. However _some _narrowing does not hurt and helps the placement imo.



> What about solo instruments, I read that they can be set to mono for better placement in the mix, or?



You mean solo orchestra instruments like an orchestra clarinet?

Again it depends on how the samples have been recorded and which mic distance you use. A typical case is that you have an instrument recorded in stereo and close (or you use the close mic samples of a mulitimic set). Often the player has moved a little from the left to the right and vice versa during the session, and as a result the instrument is jumping if you switch articulations. 

The other problem is that every instrument has a 'width' when recorded in stereo. Say the sound of the flute had a perceived width of 50 cm (about the length of the flute) while being recorded in a distance of 1 m. Now if you push that signal back with reverb and whatnot to a distance of 8 m, then you have a flute sound with a width of 4 m. That is a monster flute that occupies big parts of the soundstage and is not easy to locate for the ear.

You can cure both effects by narrowing the stereo image and since you are going to send this signal through another reverb anyway (after the narrowing) this will provide the correct first reflections from the side walls.

If you have decent monitoring in a treated room it is no problem to hear all these things. At my place I hear a difference of 3 % panning with StereoPose applied to your timpani. I would say if you can not hear a distinct effect of 10 % panning difference then it would be better not to touch the panning at all because you are fishing in the dark and there is a probability of making things worse than better. I hope this is not coming over elitistic or something, I have been there myself many times.


----------



## hbuus (Dec 15, 2009)

Hmm...when I add the StereoPose effect and dial in the values you specified, Hannes, I get a sound that seems to me to be identical to simply panning L17 with no narrowing being done.

Listen here:

1) Timpani with StereoPose effect inserted (Values: Mono-Stereo: -4.250, L-R: -0.650)
http://www.box.net/shared/7f282dbdt2

2) Timpani just panned to L17 in Kontakt
http://www.box.net/shared/1qupkyyhtp

Btw. thanks for the explanation about why it is people narrow the stereo width sometimes, I understand it better now.
I can hear the effect of narrowing, it's not that.
However I wasn't sure how much was too much.
Now I know that if I do narrow stuff, I must be careful the sound doesn't become too collapsed into itself.

Henrik


----------

