# Musicians & Mental Health



## Kyle Preston (May 15, 2018)

Just read this article: What's Driving the Musician Mental Health Crisis?

Favorite Quote: 

_“It [how your work is valued] creates this existential crisis at the heart of being a musician surrounding the idea of value and worth,” says Musgrave. “[It becomes] this creeping anxiety about whether or not what you do is valuable, particularly when music is the prism through which you define your life.”_

It's a succinct and accurate account of what I experience on a daily basis. The data was pulled from an extensive study in the UK https://www.helpmusicians.org.uk/assets/publications/files/1st_nov_can_music_make_you_sick_part_1-_pilot_survey_report_.pdf (Can Music Make You Sick?) and I was happy to see Classical as one of the prominent genres studied. The case studies are particularly illuminating. 

I hope the follow up article is constructive, but would you say this accurately describes your feelings as a musician?


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## Paul Grymaud (May 15, 2018)

*Don't worry about my mental health. I'm definitely fine.*


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## jmauz (May 15, 2018)

Interesting. I wish a study like this had been done prior to the digital age, would be interesting to see if the same challenges were as prevalent. My career started about 5 years before the industry was completely 'digitized' and I surely didn't have the anxiety I have now. 

Of course I also wasn't married, didn't have the bills I have now, got more sleep, etc. etc. etc. so perhaps it's all relative.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 15, 2018)

The "value" thing is a delicate point. I stopped thinking about this. If you're an artist, I think it's not right to have ideals of the industrialized meritocracies forced upon oneself. I consider most of what people out there do of highly questionable worth, or even glaring stupidity - and _they're _gonna tell me that what I do has no worth or isn't even "work" at all?

What truly _is _real are the existential fears - I mean the economic fears.


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## Kyle Preston (May 15, 2018)

Totally agree man. Especially about value. I try not to think about it for a number of reasons. But one, because we (creators) are not really the right people to assign worth to our own individual works, too subjective. Yet, at least I, can't really help but do it sometimes. It's just evolution to compare yourself to your peers in the industry, using whatever barometers are "important" at the time. And the economic fears seem to drive the existential ones in my experience. i.e. _Am I not making money because I suck? Or do I suck because I'm not making money?_

I see why you stopped thinking about this - these habits can trick us into focusing on development as a business at the expense of craft and artistry. And I pretty much reject (at my own peril) how most of modern industrialized society values art. And how it values culture for that matter. To quote Tyler Durden: _You're not your fucking khakis!_


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## Desire Inspires (May 15, 2018)

Kyle Preston said:


> And I pretty much reject (at my own peril) how most of modern industrialized society values art.



I understand where you come from. But, modern industrialized society is the reason why art is available to flourish.

Make art from the soul or sell out? Where is the fine line between it all. It is a catch-22 for sure.


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## JohnG (May 15, 2018)

I don't see how most people get out of bed in the morning, facing the jobs they do. Nightmare.

Sure, music is chancy. Sure, you get passed over -- or hired -- for what seem like pointless, arbitrary reasons.

But plenty of other jobs have elements of all that and they are ghastly in other ways as well.


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## Desire Inspires (May 15, 2018)

JohnG said:


> I don't see how most people get out of bed in the morning, facing the jobs they do. Nightmare.
> 
> Sure, music is chancy. Sure, you get passed over -- or hired -- for what seem like pointless, arbitrary reasons.
> 
> But plenty of other jobs have elements of all that and they are ghastly in other ways as well.



That is what makes life fun!


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## gregh (May 15, 2018)

difficult to assess thequality of the original study as there is not a comprehensive methods section - we cant tell for example how non-musicians would answer those questions delivered in a similar way. However the basic position - that it is hard to feel valued without social signs of being valued - seems to apply more globally to artists and musicians than to many other professions. Movement to home and net based composition exacerbates that I would imagine.


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## mikeh-375 (May 16, 2018)

Sensible post Greg.
There is also a sort of flip side to all this. Has anybody ever done research into how a mental health imbalance (depression and anxiety that is) can actually contribute to the creative psyche? Surely a disorder contributes to one's artistic aesthetic and paradigm just as much as it might colour your view of your own circumstances and the world around you. It may even make you the artist you are! Admittedly it is not so simple given other factors such as circumstance, life etc, but there is a truth to it I feel.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 16, 2018)

JohnG said:


> I don't see how most people get out of bed in the morning, facing the jobs they do. Nightmare.
> 
> Sure, music is chancy. Sure, you get passed over -- or hired -- for what seem like pointless, arbitrary reasons.
> 
> But plenty of other jobs have elements of all that and they are ghastly in other ways as well.



The problem is that the jobs in music aren't here anymore - as with many others in our fast-changing world.

Still, isn't the title of this thread an oxymoron?


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 16, 2018)

JohnG said:


> I don't see how most people get out of bed in the morning, facing the jobs they do. Nightmare.



For me personally, it's because it enables me to finance all of my musical (and non-musical) endeavors. Travelling, sailboat maintenance, gear addiction, vintage wine collection, etc. I also don't mind my "regular" job, which is a huge bonus. And as Nick mentioned, a lot of the industry jobs are no longer around, which makes things very bumpy and bleak if all you eggs are in one basket.


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## AlexRuger (May 16, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> For me personally, it's because it enables me to finance all of my musical (and non-musical) endeavors. Travelling, sailboat maintenance, gear addiction, vintage wine collection, etc. I also don't mind my "regular" job, which is a huge bonus. And as Nick mentioned, a lot of the industry jobs are no longer around, which makes things very bumpy and bleak if all you eggs are in one basket.



Yeah, musicians often shit on seemingly _every other job in the entire universe _thinking that they're bleak, _Office Space-_style cubicle jobs. Sure, those exist, but...we're talking so much variety here when considering every non-music job that I'm not even willing to say that they're the exception to the rule or the rule itself. It's just one type of job of innumerable others.

...which composing often resembles quite closely, now that I think about it...

Good on you for building what sounds like an awesome life!


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## Desire Inspires (May 16, 2018)

AlexRuger said:


> Yeah, musicians often shit on seemingly _every other job in the entire universe _thinking that they're bleak, _Office Space-_style cubicle jobs. Sure, those exist, but...we're talking so much variety here when considering every non-music job that I'm not even willing to say that they're the exception to the rule or the rule itself. It's just one type of job of innumerable others.!



Here is a list of cool jobs:

*Bourbon Master Taster*
*Professional Wingman*
*Gold Stacker
Television Game Show Contestant
Professional Cuddler
Swim Instructor to the Stars
NFL Official
and more.......
*
Check it out: http://cooljobs.com/


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## Replicant (May 16, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> For me personally, it's because it enables me to finance all of my musical (and non-musical) endeavors. Travelling, sailboat maintenance, gear addiction, vintage wine collection, etc. I also don't mind my "regular" job, which is a huge bonus. And as Nick mentioned, a lot of the industry jobs are no longer around, which makes things very bumpy and bleak if all you eggs are in one basket.



You take the boat on the lakes 'round here or go out to BC?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 16, 2018)

JohnG said:


> I don't see how most people get out of bed in the morning, facing the jobs they do. Nightmare.



Absolutely. It's an insane lifestyle, and after all these years, I still can't believe that society tries to act as if it was normal and the right thing to do.
I had "normal" 9-5 jobs for 10 years, and in the long run, I just can't do it. I have no idea how people can do this to themselves.

But it's tough, because being a musician isn't the land of milk of honey either. One can absolutely become sick of it as well. That's why I like to have another source of income that's more or less reliable. It just takes a crazy amount of pressure off one's shoulders, and keeps the music thing more "sacred", if that makes sense. It's easier to stay in that original place of excitement and inspiration if you know that you don't _have_ to hustle and prostitute yourself musically.

It's just pretty hard to find something that functions as an enabler for music instead of killing it off completely. Because that's what jobs generally do. For me right now it works, because I mostly work from home, I don't have to do the idiotic, insane commuting, the money is good, the job doesn't kill off the last of my brain cells before I can even get to think about something else ... it's a deal I can live with.

I think a lot of folks starting out expect music to always be their 100% thing. But it's such a chancy, volatile, crazy world. Having something on the side smoothes out the ebb and flow, puts you in a situation where you don't have to deal with creatives' BS and con-artistry when it gets too much, and just generally enhances your sense of security, which in turn does wonders to artistic inspiration. You don't have to turn into a societal puppet if you find a way to juggle things on your own terms.


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## Replicant (May 16, 2018)

AlexRuger said:


> Yeah, musicians often shit on seemingly _every other job in the entire universe _thinking that they're bleak, _Office Space-_style cubicle jobs.



The 90s did put maximum effort toward painting office jobs into a very bleak picture, but those jobs honestly never seemed that bad to me.

My mom has worked office jobs for over 20 years and loves it. My sister had a good job in an office until pretty much the whole office suffered layoffs. Made good money, always spoke positively of the job and her co-workers; rare for her.

I dunno. I've worked 10 - 15 hour shifts at back-breaking, manual labour jobs; soul-crushing holiday retail, etc. before and I imagine I'd prefer an office job to most of it, to be honest.


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## Ashley Kampta (May 17, 2018)

I have a ‘day job’. I privately teach piano, guitar, bass, drums, composition and theory one-on-one to kids, teens and adults. It’s a modest income (around the median income for the UK), to be sure, but I work less than 15 hours a week, and the fact that it’s also musical work is a great benefit. The rest of my time is for me and my family. Family and personal development (both musical and non-musical) are both more important to me than earning more, although I’m not opposed to it if I can still balance work, life and play.

I also have mentally resolved never to depend on earning a cent from composition, because (a) composing for the money these days isn’t as viable as it used to be, and (b) there will always be new students. As long as there are people (or parents!) willing to pay for instrumental or theory tuition, I will never be out of work. I don’t even have to look for new students. I work with a music school that passes new students on to me when they come through.

And as such, I have plenty of time left over after work to do my thing. Playing around with music, learning new things for my benefit (or that of my students), and being with my family all are more important than just the daily grind.

I’m also relentless with my budgeting, so what I have in terms of disposable funds goes a long way, so I’m not lacking anything materially. I’m very sparing with my sample library purchases because I write most of my stuff in Sibelius with NotePerformer, and also because I want to squeeze as much value out of what I have as I can. I do plenty with the entry-level orchestral libraries of a couple of companies, along with a smattering of other things. Subscribing to Composer Cloud really boosted my library too. Heck, I even get good mileage out of Cubase’s HALion Sonic SE and my collection of old SoundFonts.

OK, yeah, so I’m not earning £100,000 a year, but so what? Time is more valuable than money to me, and I have enough money to not worry about money (at least for the moment), and more than enough time on my hands to enjoy what I do outside of my work without worrying about whether I’m going to get paid for it, or whether people will like it, etc. My compositions are for me. My play time is for me. My practice and study time is for me too, but it also benefits my students. If others want to hear the results of my work (i.e. finished compositions, unfinished compositions or experiments), that’s cool. If they like them, also cool. If not, well, I didn’t make it for them. I take their opinions on board (provided that they are constructive, of course), but if I start attaching too much worth to them, that’s when I need to wake up and step back again.

And that’s how I’ve avoided becoming depressed and anxious - by removing the power other people have (or would have had) over me to decide what I should do, how much my work should be worth, and whether I live or die based on someone else’s opinions. I choose to have none of that.

Also, another bonus: if composition eventually gets automated someday, it won’t matter to me because the skill and knowledge I earn for myself through my time and hard work, no robot will be able to take from me. I’ve done music for fun enough that I can now earn money from something related to music. However, if music ever stops being fun for me then I would be the most pitiable person ever, as all my eggs are in the musical basket. I have few other marketable skills, although to be honest that is partially due to my neurology (ASD/ADHD). So, I have needed to make some mindset adjustments to ensure music never loses its fun for me.

And hey, if I end up earning something for my composition work some day, then that would be a bonus too. But I'm already fulfilled without needing an income from composing.

My opinion may be selfish and perhaps even arrogant, but I think that protecting your mental health is worth being selfish over.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 17, 2018)

Replicant said:


> You take the boat on the lakes 'round here or go out to BC?



Glenmore Reservoir, except the levels have been lowered this year for dam restoration. If I knew someone with a launch at a decent lake in Alberta or BC, I'd take it out there a few times. Otherwise, it looks like I'll be cruising around Lake Chestermere :(


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 17, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Absolutely. It's an insane lifestyle, and after all these years, I still can't believe that society tries to act as if it was normal and the right thing to do.
> I had "normal" 9-5 jobs for 10 years, and in the long run, I just can't do it. I have no idea how people can do this to themselves.



Uuummmm...because someone might need to pay bills, eat and raise a family? Not everyone is fortunate enough to make a full time career in music, I don't think it's fair to say that people are conforming to societal demands and becoming puppets.


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## InLight-Tone (May 17, 2018)

AlexRuger said:


> Yeah, musicians often shit on seemingly _every other job in the entire universe _thinking that they're bleak, _Office Space-_style cubicle jobs. Sure, those exist, but...we're talking so much variety here when considering every non-music job that I'm not even willing to say that they're the exception to the rule or the rule itself. It's just one type of job of innumerable others.
> 
> ...which composing often resembles quite closely, now that I think about it...
> 
> Good on you for building what sounds like an awesome life!


Yes, ANY cubicle sucks, even self-imposed.
"You can line a cage with gold, but it's still a cage"...Kay Peterson, Escapess RV Club Founder

(TIP: Put the studio in an RV and live close to nature and compose at the same time for best results.)


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## JohnG (May 17, 2018)

Ashley Kampta said:


> I have enough money to not worry about money (at least for the moment), and more than enough time on my hands to enjoy what I do outside of my work without worrying about whether I’m going to get paid for it, or whether people will like it



Sounds magic, @Ashley Kampta Good for you.


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## jhughes (May 17, 2018)

Every job has it's mental issues. I've seen people in office jobs go crazy, I worked as a chemist for six years and that about drove me crazy because it left me with no time for music or hobbies.
To me, it's not all a mental health problem, but simply human to feel those things in a demanding world.

For instance, it's normal to want validation/confirmation in the value of our work. Most people have dreams, big or small, and want their exertion to lead to something.

I think there are unique challenges to being a musician, in some cases any self-employed person.
However, I also think there are things on there many people go through that aren't musicians.

A thing I have noticed with A LOT of my musician friends is they pretend everything is great, they have lots of gigs, they are in high demand even when none of that is true. In some cases I watch these people fall apart at the seams, they will have no work yet will continue to tell you they do. I think many musicians would be better off being real with another and talking about it. I'm perfectly okay telling someone, "I haven't had a gig in months"...If that causes me to lose face, so be it.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 17, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Uuummmm...because someone might need to pay bills, eat and raise a family? Not everyone is fortunate enough to make a full time career in music, I don't think it's fair to say that people are conforming to societal demands and becoming puppets.



It might not be "fair", but that's how I feel. Obviously, my strong opinions on working life stem from being there myself. I wasn't one of the guys who were born into a well off or super-educated family, received this and that tuition at an early age or had the support, freedom and security to find my interests and passions and let my talents thrive and all that. 

I had all kinds of jobs in my life, among them some very physical ones, I also worked endless night shifts, constant overtime, etc. etc. I'm definitely not a stranger to hard work and relentless work ethic. Even after I managed to do better for myself and transition to being a desk guy, got promoted and took on greater responsibilities, made respectable money etc., I was never one to sit on my incompetent lard ass, collecting unjustified amounts of money - it was still relentless work.

What I'm trying to say that me viewing all the circus as crazy doesn't come from a perspective of not having to toil away and being fortunate to be able to live the dream. Perhaps even most importantly, what I got used to seeing and experiencing is how little hard work appears to be worth in our society. And how soul crushing, or at least ultimately senseless it can end up being. And it might sound outrageous, but I genuinely wonder how humanity got lulled into it, and how few dare to challenge the whole idea - not even practically, but at least in their heads. Isn't part of trying to do something unconventional - like being an artist - at least to some extent also an attempt to escape all this?


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## Replicant (May 17, 2018)

jhughes said:


> A thing I have noticed with A LOT of my musician friends is they pretend everything is great, they have lots of gigs, they are in high demand even when none of that is true. In some cases I watch these people fall apart at the seams, they will have no work yet will continue to tell you they do. I think many musicians would be better off being real with another and talking about it. I'm perfectly okay telling someone, "I haven't had a gig in months"...If that causes me to lose face, so be it.



That is a really good point. I have a lot of friends who play in metal bands who do that. It's also even worse their because they wind up _paying to play shows_ and get nothing in return from it. It's like "Oh yeah, everything's great. We're recording a new album and playing lots of shows"...yeah, but you're just burning money and broke.



Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Perhaps even most importantly, what I got used to seeing and experiencing is how little hard work appears to be worth in our society.



The unfortunate truth is that nobody cares how much effort you put in: It's the results that matter.



Jimmy Hellfire said:


> And how soul crushing, or at least ultimately senseless it can end up being.



Nothing is more soul-crushing than holiday-season retail, IMO. Years ago, when I quit doing that. I told my boss that even though I didn't have another job lined up, I just simply couldn't take another christmas season. Seriously, I was working overtime every single week to the point I'd wake up at night because I was _working in my dreams_, only to fall back asleep and dream the same dream again.



Jimmy Hellfire said:


> And it might sound outrageous, but I genuinely wonder how humanity got lulled into it, and how few dare to challenge the whole idea - not even practically, but at least in their heads



Without this strife, civilization as we know it wouldn't exist; it's this work that built it and keeps it running.


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## patrick76 (May 17, 2018)

Replicant said:


> Without this strife, civilization as we know it wouldn't exist; it's this work that built it and keeps it running.



Yes, but what does that really mean exactly? It wouldn't exist quite the same, but what meaningful differences are you implying? 

It would be one thing if the hard work paid off in some way, I mean at least financially, but often it does not. It is really disgusting in my opinion. It seems to me that hard workers without the skills for negotiation and with a sense of ethics are frequently taken advantage of. I have several co-workers that I would put in this category.

Anyway, this is off topic obviously, but.. an interesting thread.


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## Replicant (May 17, 2018)

patrick76 said:


> Yes, but what does that really mean exactly? It wouldn't exist quite the same, but what meaningful differences are you implying?



Personally, I'm a bit awestruck that anyone is asking. 

Every single item you can possibly buy in a store, real or online; every service you can hire, and all the jobs resulting, are born of supply and demand. I know the cool kids like to shit on the free market these days, but the reality is that it's the reason why you and I's lives don't totally suck. As far back as antiquity, every successful civilization has run on this idea that we can turn resources into something else and it snowballed from there.

Places that don't have these resources and economic systems look a lot like those "For just a dollar a day" commercials.

In prehistoric times, they figured out how to build shelters out of mud and clay; thus the architect and builder was born. In the bronze age, they figured out how to smelt these metals and that gave rise to fashioning tools and Armour out of it. That led to smiths and all kinds of people to sell and ship those goods; everything from spears to plates. Weavers figured out how to spin materials into clothes and how to dye those clothes so you don't freeze to death. This just goes on and on like this and all the resulting goods and services are exchanged for a universal trade item (currency) that can be turned into literally any other good or service you can imagine. Goods that cannot even be produced in your location; thus giving you greater access to the world and improving quality of life dramatically.

It's not a perfect system, but it's the best one there is and the only sustainable one, and every great civilization from the Egyptians and the Romans to modern North America have used it to get to where they are.

The disdain expressed towards it is symptomatic of the fact that we're quickly become a people who define ourselves by what we consume rather than what we create and contribute to society.

So how would civilization be without all these mundane jobs? Just as it was in prehistoric times.


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## patrick76 (May 17, 2018)

Replicant said:


> Personally, I'm a bit awestruck that anyone is asking.
> 
> Every single item you can possibly buy in a store, real or online; every service you can hire, and all the jobs resulting, are born of supply and demand. I know the cool kids like to shit on the free market these days, but the reality is that it's the reason why you and I's lives don't totally suck. As far back as antiquity, every successful civilization has run on this idea that we can turn resources into something else and it snowballed from there.
> 
> ...



We aren't talking about the same thing I don't think... maybe... I'm referring to the strife, the long hours worked, etc. and how it is unethical and unnecessary. The people suffering through most of the "mundane" difficult work are often simply exploited for profit, not to live in "the best" system we have. I think when 43% of households in the U.S. struggle to afford a basic middle class life and when the top 1% control 43% of the wealth in the nation, I call B.S. to this supposed need for the working class to slave away to enjoy the benefits of our society. What I am not saying is that these less than glamorous jobs are unnecessary... in fact, quite the opposite... they are necessary and those that perform them should be compensated in a manner that respects that fact.


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## MatFluor (May 17, 2018)

I want to give my 2 cents on this whole thing.

I come from a family where people tend to be frustrated because "they didn't do it". My Grandmother wanted to become an Opera singer, started the education but then WWII. My Mother wanted to become a teacher, my by Granddad didn't allow it (various reasons). Now my mom is getting old and you start se see the regret that she didn't do it.

Also, one half of my family has a special history with being employed. My Granddad changed the company every two years, my mom freelanced pretty quickly after the apprenticeship. My Uncle was a music producer in the end, but before also very often changed jobs. Only my Aunt somehow is ok with working cubicle style. On the other side of the family I have workers, my dad being a car mechanic and ended up being the deputy boss of one of the local cable railway (Switzerland, yay!). He played trumpet when he was younger.

So, what gives? I have the same problems - I don't like tight oversight, I don't like offices. Fortunately my current job working at a University allows me to have a great deal of homeoffice (since I don't teach that much) - which leaves me time to work on my music related skills. I played recorder when I was young and was principal at the kids orchestra. Nothing to write home about, but somehow all begin young  Then nothing for quite some time and then guitar, then fascination for film music, then 14 years playing in a metal band as main composer, guitarist, sometimes vocalist and all time manager. Then quit music for 2 years out of frustration (no gigs, band wanted to go into a different direction, I moved away etcetc). That was the hard time for my mental health - I tried to remove an integral part of my self - I didn't touch an instrument for these two years. One because I wanted to put an end to this "I will be a musician!" thing, on the other hand I just had too much to to (100% studying + 80% working). Eventually I had a small breakdown which made me realize that overworking has it's toll. After finishing my studies and getting a job at a university and less "pressure", I still wasn't satisfied with my life. I changed my studies by the way - I started with Psychology, then changed to Computational Linguistics.

Then I picked music back up, realizing that this was the thing that was missing. I was in a bad mood all the time, stuff started to build up and more. I got myself a MIDI-Keyboard and started composing for media. Guess what? I feel better than before. So, after this damn wall here I say this:

What I want:
- Be happy and proud of my way that I go
- Be a good (future) husband to my (future) wife
- Don't look back in 15 years saying "Ah, I could've tried it but I haven't"
- Now that I'm turning 33 at the end of the year, it's now or never to give it a shot

Yes, 33 is late compared to others, and early compared to others. My thinking is, my job gives me a good chunk of money to put aside. I take that chunk when it's high enough, quit my job and become a fulltime musician. I'm planning on Guitar teaching, library music writing etc. Honestly, if it doesn't work? Then at least I could say that I gave it an honest try for 2-3 years before joining back the regular workforce somewhere. I know I would regret it deeply if I don't. No, I don't want to end up as a frustrated and bitter old guy who then somehow tells his kids that they shouldn't study music or that they won't get a guitar for birthday because that's a bad career. I want to be the guy who can say "Yes, I tried it, I failed, but hey, learn from my mistake and become a good musician!". Better so if I succeed here 

Sorry for this huge wall of text guys, and kudos if you made it through. The essence is, my family is one that doesn't tend to be happy in standard office jobs - and so am I. Why is it music for me? Because I realized that this is an extremely important part in my life, and my psychological wellbeing deteriorated when I wasn't making music. Will I make a comfortable living from music? Who knows. Will I be able to work as musician for the greater percentage of my weeks? Yes, absolutely. My Fiancée supports me all the way there - because I have a realistic plan for all of this, and it is our life. She wants to support me, and I want to support her. Ideally my commissions end up getting enough money in to carry her "dead months" and vice versa. Whatever! It's our life, and as said, I'm not going to be a bitter old guy who is bitter because he hasn't tried.

ah, and by the way, I've started taking a music education course to get me right on track. but more on that some other time or in another subforum here :-D


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## Ashley Kampta (May 18, 2018)

Can I just say that this discussion has been illuminating and helpful. I am thankful to everyone here for weighing in on such a sensitive topic. It is fascinating to see how the conversation has morphed from general ideas of mental health into the effects that employment and having a day job (whether you are 'happy' with it or not) can affect both mental health in general, and the life of a musician.

I hope that through talking about mental health among our fellow musicians here, that we can learn how to advocate for ourselves and learn to ask for or seek support for things we struggle with. Others close to us also need to know what we are struggling with, so that they can advocate for us and fight for us when we are too weak to fight for ourselves. Simply knowing that you are not alone, and having that support to go to, having that person to sound off on (whether family, friend or professional) is so very important.

I very much respect those who have a day job that is not anything to do with music, or that is itself either physically or mentally stressful, and being able to stick with it despite its inconvenience and inherent struggle. Doing something like that in order to sustain your life and the lives of your family while trying to give (or find) yourself some sort of financial and time freedom to pursue your creative endeavours is something I tried but just couldn’t handle.

My first job was a cashier at a bank. They were gracious enough to place me at a branch that closed on weekends to give me time to pursue my composition career. While the job was not physically demanding, it turned out that it was mentally too complex for me to handle and I ended up being forced to resign after I made errors on the job. The second job I had was as a typist and general admin person for a newspaper company, dealing with adverts to go into newspapers. I handled this job better as I enjoyed it, lasting over 2 years, but I was made redundant after the credit crunch. The job didn’t pay well either, despite me being happy with it.

Everyone knows how the credit crunch went in terms of seeking employment. After many years of not having a job, sending out numerous applications but only getting a handful of interviews, I decided to stop looking and start teaching, purely because I needed to do something musical and could not subsist on no money while waiting for my entry into the composition industry to happen.

After many years as a self-employed teacher, I’ve gotten used to the somewhat stable income (more stable than it would be with composition alone, and probably far less work than a composition career, if truth be told). I have therefore made decisions outlined in my previous post in response to changes in the industry over the past 15 years to ensure that I can still be happy with my life and do something musical even though my first choice employment of being a full-time composer looks increasingly unlikely to happen in the current climate, and with my mental energy levels.



JohnG said:


> Sounds magic, @Ashley Kampta Good for you.



So, far from being ‘magic’ as JohnG above me said, my position is more a result of conscious decisions made because I know that if I tried to keep up with the pace and complexity of modern life (especially in something as brutal and volatile as the modern music industry) with the mental challenges I have to face on a daily basis, then I would swiftly become a broken man.

I spent the first 34 years of my life not even knowing I had ASD or ADHD, but having to grow up suffering with it anyway. I’ve sought therapy as an adult for depression and anxiety. I’ve even attempted suicide as a child. Everything I’ve decided as an adult, based on the things I’ve been through, has been for my own mental protection and happiness. Yes, initially, teaching was my backup plan, but in the course of life, my Plan B became my Plan A. But now, I actually think things happened this way for the best. It removes the pressure of having to keep up in a volatile world, while still being inherently rewarding and allowing me to feel like I haven’t completely wasted over 25 years of formal musical training.


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## gregh (May 18, 2018)

Replicant said:


> Personally, I'm a bit awestruck that anyone is asking.
> 
> Every single item you can possibly buy in a store, real or online; every service you can hire, and all the jobs resulting, are born of supply and demand. I know the cool kids like to shit on the free market these days, but the reality is that it's the reason why you and I's lives don't totally suck. As far back as antiquity, every successful civilization has run on this idea that we can turn resources into something else and it snowballed from there.
> 
> ...



this history is not correct - the most successful societies - in terms of longevity - did very little of this and had - as far as they were concerned - very high quality lives. If you have an interest in economic systems it maybe worth your while to read Graeber's "Debt, the first 5000 years" which is a very readable account of economic systems from an empirical viewpoint


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## charlieclouser (May 18, 2018)

There seems to be a couple of tendencies on the rise in recent years, maybe starting around the rise of social media and online forums, and as these mentalities become more and more ingrained in our culture, I can't help but think that they're not helping anyone's mental state:

- The culture of endless self-congratulation, mutual back-patting, and just plain log-rolling. Awards for best theme of fifteen seconds or less from an interactive Android-only game, blogs interviewing anyone who's ever uploaded a track to SoundCloud, etc. The endless stream of *fake fame* creates an aspirational aura around anything that moves, often for no good reason. This mentality has created a vast suck that tries to grab ahold of anything that two people have paid attention to, and tries to get three more people to pay attention to it.

- The culture of relentless self-promotion since the rise of YouTube and such has given rise to way too many people who think that what they have to say is so damn worth hearing that the world demands that they have not only their own TV show, but their own freaking TV channel! Yes, I'm old, but back in my day the promotional aspects were NEVER done by the artist - publicists, record companies, and other people asked you what you had to say. If nobody was asking THEM what you thought, you didn't get asked, and you didn't say anything. This created an actual supply-and-demand relationship between an artist's opinions and the people who wanted to know those opinions (if there were any). These days it seems that people think it's a foregone conclusion that their opinions are worth hearing, and it's their "duty to their fans" to post a daily video of their opinions on any damn thing. The amount of self-broadcasting YouTubers, Twitch streamers, etc. is mind-boggling. Sure, this stuff lets people who are interested in some obscure anime series find other experts in the field - but let's not forget that so much of this stuff is centered around adoration of commercial products. Which brings me to the next point:

- The rise of "fandom". Fan culture, cosplay, and attendees at the zillions of "cons" are, in essence, acting as unwitting proxy advertisers for commercial products for which they can take no credit, and from which they can derive no profit. If I'm reading it right, they do get satisfaction from finding and joining a group of like-minded fans, but it's still not "theirs", as much as they try to make it "their own thing" by doing creative cosplay mash-ups like sexy stormtroopers, zombie Velma from Scooby-Doo, or BDSM Pokemon. All that stuff is a fantastic benefit for the movie studios or whoever, and mostly free of charge, but it boggles my mind that so many civilians spend so much time cultivating their adoration of commercial products.

But the big one:

- The tendency to glorify the practice of self-punishment on the altar of success, or, at least, to act like getting beat up by short deadlines and short budgets is somehow okay, or actually an admirable quality. As if only the strong survive. As if you've got to be ready to sacrifice leisure time, healthy relationships with friends and family, and basically be prepared to eat shit if you want to succeed. As if this stuff is *supposed to be hard*. I tend to think pretty much the opposite - I didn't get into doing music because I felt "up to the challenge", I got into it because it came naturally, easily, and basically seemed as far away from doing actual "work" as anything I could think of. It's supposed to be easy, it's supposed to be fun, goddammit! Sure, the hours are sometimes long, but if you don't genuinely enjoy fiddling with music, or technology, or just goofing around in a recording studio trying to find a sound you've never heard before, then you're eventually going to not love it - and then you might as well be sitting in a cubicle calculating risk assessments for commercial insurance policies or something.

The only mentor I had in the scoring side of things was the composer I worked for when I was 24 or so, and he didn't work hard at all! We goofed around all day long, lay around reading, wandered through museums, spent hours in book stores, took bike rides through Central Park to smoke a joint on our way to a long dinner, had Super-Soaker fights.... he was in this life to *have a life*, not to sacrifice himself on the altar of success. Of course, he was the one who taught me to never spend more than one-third of the fees from any gig on the expenses related to actually doing the gig, since you'd probably be out of work two-thirds of the time. He'd score a tv series or movie, then go off and spend a few months back in Australia or staying with friends in Tokyo, then maybe direct a documentary film with his wife (a filmmaker and science writer) the following year, etc. He was well-read, worldly, and had a life full of varied experiences - and *that* is what made his music unique and interesting. His life experience informed his music. It wasn't that his music added value to his life, quite the opposite - his *life added value to his music*. When you reverse the commonly-held value structure (as he did), it's not the music validating your life, it's your life validating the music - and then it's not the responsibility of the music or your success to give meaning or value to your life. Nobody likes the music? Who cares! The life that surrounds it was more fun and full of valuable content than the music or the career ever could measure up to. If someone spends every waking moment beating their head against the computer screen, how wide a view can their art be informed by?

I see evidence of that attitude (glorification of self-flagellation) in every segment of my "peer group", and I usually feel like the odd man out, so much so that I'm a little reluctant to actually criticize that outlook for fear of being discovered as the lazy fucker that I am, but... screw it. I think that mentality is bullshit. I love having nothing on my calendar. I mean, I really love it. That's when I am truly happiest - when I have not one goddamn thing on my upcoming events calendar - no spotting sessions, no delivery dates, no dentist's appointments, nothing. I think that's called freedom, right? (Or maybe it's called retirement. Or just plain old unemployment?) Anyway, I ran across a great example of this unwitting glorification of self-abuse in a post by Richard Kraft on that Facebook group he moderates that I somehow got subscribed to - here's a recent post of his that sounds like it should be printed in NY Times font on the back of a black t-shirt they sell at Walmart:

-------

THE JOY OF SHIT STORMS

Firefighters run towards the flames.

Surfers seek out crushing waves

Marathoners pound through 26.2 Miles

Mothers power through screaming children.

Pursuing giant dreams often means surmounting massive obstacles. It means plowing through tsunami shit storms.

BRING IT ON

Media composing is for badass warriors.

It is for junkies who crave battling deadlines, impossible odds and constantly shifting landscapes.

It is for crazed adventurers getting off on navigating uncharted seas.

STOP BEING SURPRISED BY CONDITIONS. NAVIGATE THEM.

Pointing out the obvious of the conditions of media composing and bemoaning its landscape is extraordinarily uninteresting and unproductive.

(Imagine a mountain climber kvetching that Everest is steep and cold).

Deadlines, demands, changes and pressure-cooker conditions are the massive waves of media composing.

Rush into those crushing, churning waves. Build up your chops, your stamina, your support team, your methodology, your power.

BE A BADASS.

-------

Now, I know Richard is a very successful agent with many successful and talented clients, but... for fuck's sake man, this is some bullshit. "Be a badass". The cringe factor is off the charts. That screed would fit right in on the "IamVeryBadass" sub-reddit. Check it out, compare, and prepare to cringe.

https://www.reddit.com/r/iamverybadass/

This sounds like the kind of propaganda purpose-built to indoctrinate the proles to accept the abuse, couched in the language of a motivational poster with a picture of kitten hanging from a branch. "Hang in there baby, it's almost Friday!"

Now, I realize that, yes, a media composer is essentially just another service provider in the food chain of the film industry, and to a large degree as expendable and interchangeable as any of the dozens of VFX houses that work on a Marvel movie or whatever.... but I don't think it's mandatory to sacrifice enjoyment, leisure, and happiness in order to create good or satisfying music.

If you buy into that mentality too much then you'll likely be angry at your music career because of all you've sacrificed for its sake.

You'll be ready to punch your damn music career in its fat face because it robbed you of your balance, your happiness, your *life.*

Because it didn't reward all of your sacrifice by granting you success, or fortune, or fame.

And who wants to spend the rest of your life stuck with something you're angry at?

*That* will make you crazy for sure.


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## Farkle (May 18, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> There seems to be a couple of tendencies on the rise in recent years, maybe starting around the rise of social media and online forums, and as these mentalities become more and more ingrained in our culture, I can't help but think that they're not helping anyone's mental state:
> 
> - The culture of endless self-congratulation, mutual back-patting, and just plain log-rolling. Awards for best theme of fifteen seconds or less from an interactive Android-only game, blogs interviewing anyone who's ever uploaded a track to SoundCloud, etc. The endless stream of *fake fame* creates an aspirational aura around anything that moves, often for no good reason. This mentality has created a vast suck that tries to grab ahold of anything that two people have paid attention to, and tries to get three more people to pay attention to it.
> 
> ...



Charlie,

Thanks, man. I really appreciate this post. This is very affirming for those of us who want to live a life that has fun and fullness to it. And, great humor in this post, too! Thumbs up, man!

Mike


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 18, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> - The tendency to glorify the practice of self-punishment on the altar of success, or, at least, to act like getting beat up by short deadlines and short budgets is somehow okay, or actually an admirable quality. As if only the strong survive. As if you've got to be ready to sacrifice leisure time, healthy relationships with friends and family, and basically be prepared to eat shit if you want to succeed. As if this stuff is *supposed to be hard*. I tend to think pretty much the opposite - I didn't get into doing music because I felt "up to the challenge", I got into it because it came naturally, easily, and basically seemed as far away from doing actual "work" as anything I could think of. It's supposed to be easy, it's supposed to be fun, goddammit! Sure, the hours are sometimes long, but if you don't genuinely enjoy fiddling with music, or technology, or just goofing around in a recording studio trying to find a sound you've never heard before, then you're eventually going to not love it - and then you might as well be sitting in a cubicle calculating risk assessments for commercial insurance policies or something.



Absolutely this.


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## dgburns (May 18, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> There seems to be a couple of tendencies on the rise in recent years, maybe starting around the rise of social media and online forums, and as these mentalities become more and more ingrained in our culture, I can't help but think that they're not helping anyone's mental state:
> 
> - The culture of endless self-congratulation, mutual back-patting, and just plain log-rolling. Awards for best theme of fifteen seconds or less from an interactive Android-only game, blogs interviewing anyone who's ever uploaded a track to SoundCloud, etc. The endless stream of *fake fame* creates an aspirational aura around anything that moves, often for no good reason. This mentality has created a vast suck that tries to grab ahold of anything that two people have paid attention to, and tries to get three more people to pay attention to it.
> 
> ...



Charlie, yes I saw that post from Mr Kraft as well. He DOES post alot of otherwise useful tidbits at times. But that forum is def an outlet for CERTAIN people to wax poetic to the wannabees. I cringed at that post as well. 

Now, to YOUR post. I mean, shit man, I have never read anything here that expressed my attitude towards the whole scene as you just did. I just want to thank you for writing that. I needed to read that today, as I sit here with nothing in my calendar. Freedom is almost too vast a concept to feel comfortable in, I’m trying to get used to it, but it’s terrifying as well. And it has nothing to do with money or any of that.

Despite all you wrote, I’m also reminded of other posts you wrote where you clearly show that you’re willing and able to ‘go further’ then just about anyone I know in the pursuit of the musical task you’re undertaking. The details and chase of your craft are pretty exhausting, so I’ll frame what you wrote here with that in mind.

peace, and thanks
David


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## chillbot (May 18, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> BE A BADASS.


Thank you Mr. Charlie Clouser.

I was just bitching about this exact FB post with someone for the exact same reason and then saw your post. Like you read my mind.


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## Replicant (May 18, 2018)

gregh said:


> this history is not correct - the most successful societies - in terms of longevity - did very little of this and had - as far as they were concerned - very high quality lives. If you have an interest in economic systems it maybe worth your while to read Graeber's "Debt, the first 5000 years" which is a very readable account of economic systems from an empirical viewpoint



There has always been an exchange of labor for goods and services in the stead of currency and yes, every single successful civilization had a substantial workforce (slaves or paid) and trade. 

It's off-topic, but I stand by my point: Countries without jobs and people to do them haven't done very well.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 18, 2018)

To quote Anthony Hopkins...

"None of us are getting out of here alive, so stop treating yourself like an afterthought. Eat the delicious food. Walk in the sunshine. Jump in the ocean. Say the truth that you are carrying in your heart like hidden treasure. Be silly. Be kind. Be weird. There’s not time for anything else.”

But while doing this, be responsible and do what you have to in order to pay the bills, etc.


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## Kyle Preston (May 18, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> This sounds like the kind of propaganda purpose-built to indoctrinate the proles to accept the abuse, couched in the language of a motivational poster with a picture of kitten hanging from a branch. "Hang in there baby, it's almost Friday!"




Could not agree more man. That FB post reminded me of the horse in Animal Farm - the one who overworks himself for the _good of the farm_ and then dies from exhaustion. And no one cared.


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## aumordia (May 18, 2018)

Great post Charlie.

My own take as a nobody hobbyist with a good "normal" job: if your priorities are wrong, you'll be miserable no matter what you do. Working to "fulfill" yourself (and what does this euphemism "fulfill" really mean? come on...) is self-oriented, i.e. selfish, and selfishness is a reliable path to hell. You should instead put your talent and energy in the service of others -- your family, friends, community, and country, in that order. The people you love should be your top priority, and if they are, music will naturally fulfill whatever role makes the most sense in your unique circumstances.

I really enjoy music, but my talents and circumstances were such that a different career made more sense. And not only do I not regret this in the slightest, I can't even comprehend regretting it. What on earth could be more satisfying than providing for my wife and kids? Than being able to take care of aging parents and relatives battling illness? Loving the people you're with now and being a good steward to the next generation -- this is what really matters, music is maybe a means to that end, depending.

I really like what Charlie said about how it's not "supposed to be hard." You can't be autistic about interpreting that -- life in general gets hard at times, work is no exception -- but if you've got the right talents in the right circumstances for a career in music then it should come more or less naturally. Being a surgeon has certainly had its challenges, but on the whole it came quite naturally to my dad -- good thing he kept the trombone playing a hobby though, he doesn't have much of an ear. Heck I've got a buddy who was literally a Navy Seal, I wouldn't go so far as to say he breezed through it, but he's cut from a really unique sort of cloth, so something that would grind up a normal person was just a reasonable challenge for him. I'm also 99% sure he is actually literally tone deaf.

My own line of work in sales engineering came about after giving up on trying to make it in music, medicine, and the teams, because that shit was too hard for me. So I did the thing I'm best at that pays the most which seems to be the most useful to the world around me, and it's been going great. I make enough that my wife can stay home with the kids, and because it comes easily to me I don't have to log ridiculous hours so I have plenty of time and energy for family and friends.

Funny thing is that my career started in NYC and I got to know some finance types. I was struck by how many of them were miserable in ways very similar to a lot of the musicians I had known -- they were really selfish pricks who were just doing this because they wanted it, dammit. Turns out that a lot of those famously long banker hours are due to the fact that a whole ton of these people just aren't that good at it but refuse to do anything else, hence they grind soullessly for 100+ hours week-in week-out, which seems to exacerbate their misanthropy to the unwashed masses who "just don't get it" and drives them all a little crazy too boot. Sound familiar?

All of which is to say that when you cut out all the musicians who are in the game for the wrong reasons, I bet musician mental health is pretty typical. Music just attracts a lot of people who otherwise shouldn't be there, unlike say actuarial science.


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## charlieclouser (May 18, 2018)

dgburns said:


> Charlie, yes I saw that post from Mr Kraft as well. He DOES post alot of otherwise useful tidbits at times. But that forum is def an outlet for CERTAIN people to wax poetic to the wannabees. I cringed at that post as well.
> 
> Now, to YOUR post. I mean, shit man, I have never read anything here that expressed my attitude towards the whole scene as you just did. I just want to thank you for writing that. I needed to read that today, as I sit here with nothing in my calendar. Freedom is almost too vast a concept to feel comfortable in, I’m trying to get used to it, but it’s terrifying as well. And it has nothing to do with money or any of that.
> 
> ...



Yeah, when I first saw that post from RK I had to restrain myself from dropping bombs directly into that FB group - that would have been a little too much of a direct attack, and I don't actually participate in that FB group so it didn't feel appropriate. Plus, he's sort of preaching to the choir over there - they seem to lap that stuff up - but to someone who wasn't raised in the culture of Hollywood aspiration it all feels a bit.... icky. My point was more about how the online echo chamber of "#ComposerLife #TheHustleIsReal #LivingTheDream", like any echo chamber, unwittingly creates a self-reinforcing feedback loop in which the participants try to one-up each other. Like,

"Oh, you think your last gig was hard? Rookie. On my last gig I had to compose a love theme on clarinet while playing the drums while mastering an album, all in ten minutes. I work 28 hours a day, nine days a week. You don't know *real* struggle, kid! Get on my level! #Hustle #ComposerLife #IwelcomeTheAbuse"

All I want to point out is that it's not the only way.

Most of my favorite artists / composers / writers / filmmakers / musicians are not really all that prolific - they're not "on that grind, son". Kubrick, Eno, Gilliam - they don't crank out product while working on four things at once.

Their work feels as if it's been fertilized in the rich soil of the human experience, of a life well-lived. 

But how does any of this apply to someone trying to gain a foothold in "the industry"? Not sure. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe I'm guilty of speaking from a position of unreasonable and unrealistic success, where my unusual position makes me think it's reasonable for me to tell people that they don't need to work 28-hour days because now that I'm old and coasting on past successes I don't need to do that anymore (spoiler alert, I do). I realize that. But I'm trying to speak to the issue of maintaining mental health in the creative fields. To that point, my central argument is this:

If you sacrifice your life / health / sanity to your music (or any) career, then you run the risk of feeling like you need to be repaid, by that career, for your sacrifice. If it doesn't work out, the career can become that thing that's done you wrong - and that's a wrong that can never be righted, a debt that can never be repaid. 

For everyone, there will eventually be that "last gig". The last score you compose, the last record you release, the last house you build, the last ditch you dig. And then it will be over. And you'll think, what shall we use to fill the empty spaces? If the career contains your identity, there might be a big empty space after that last gig. But if your *identity contains your career* then hopefully the loss will feel less total.

Even the true greats have self-doubt and some level of disappointment with their work. HZ once said his favorite piece of his music is the one that hasn't been written yet. JW famously said that Schindler's List deserved a better composer than he (and Spielberg famously replied, "I agree - but they're all dead!"). What I take from that is that satisfaction and success are *always* relative. My mental analogy has always been that even as you climb a ladder, that ladder is constantly sinking into the mud, so you're always standing on the bottom rung and your shoes will always be an inch away from getting muddy. If you're climbing because you want a better view, and don't actually enjoy the act of climbing just for the exercise, then you're gonna have a bad time. (Insert South Park ski instructor meme here). But if you actually, genuinely enjoy the process of moving your arms and legs, and inspecting the interesting wood grain on each new rung you grab, then the simple act of climbing will be satisfying, even if you never get more than a few inches above the mud.

Okay, yeah, I have been known to "go further" (too far?) in many aspects of music or tech, whether it's permanently wiring up 48 guitar pedals to patch bays or spending endless weeks converting stuff from Kontakt to EXS or whatever - but I enjoy that stuff. It's like having a backyard garden or something. I love sitting cross-legged behind the racks with the cable ties and label printer, getting everything nice and tidy while Robot Chicken plays on the tv. It's a break from the "challenges" of creativity - it's exactly like weeding a garden. When my sample folders are in perfect order, with everything correctly named and organized, I feel the same sort of satisfaction that a gardener feels when the weeding is done and all the irrigation is working as it should. Sure, those weeds will grow back (just like the "samples to be edited" folder!), but that's life. So that stuff never really feels like work. If it did, I probably wouldn't bother!

So enjoy work, but enjoy life also. Both *can* be fun. Both *should* be fun.


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## nulautre (May 18, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> (Insert South Park ski instructor meme here)



I got you...


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## charlieclouser (May 18, 2018)

nulautre said:


> I got you...



PERFECT! LOVE IT!


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## aumordia (May 18, 2018)

In fairness the culture has changed over the past 50 years. You're no longer supposed to be thankful for the good fortune to have the talent and the circumstances that allow you to make a living doing XYZ -- no, you need to TAKE CONTROL and MASTER YOUR DESTINY! Luck? Fate? Psht! MAKE YOUR OWN LUCK! NO FATE BUT WHAT WE MAKE!

The thing is that if you accept that mentality then if something doesn't pan out, the only logical conclusion is that you didn't grind hard enough. So you either grind harder or quit in defeat like a loser. Seems like a recipe to drive somebody crazy no matter what field we're talking about.


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## Mattzart (May 18, 2018)

You know, I really enjoy my non-music job. I'm a mailman (although that isn't gonna always be a sure thing either). I get to spend all day out doors, greet and talk with friendly people, I get paid to exercise (10-15 mile walks every day). I get to watch families grow. 

The only downside is some days I get home after a 10-13+ hour work day and all I wanna do is just mentally shut off for the night. Can make composing real tricky during those tough, busy weeks. But I'd rather have a consistent and generous paycheck to not knowing when my next gig might come along. Even if something ever came about with my music I'd still likely find a way to work around my mailman schedule. The benefits to the job are just too great to really ever give up unless if the gigs began bringing me in millions of $$$.

Mental health is important to me, I'm ADHD with bipolar and facial tics and a stutter. But I'm as happy as a clam. I always tell myself "it could always be worse". Even when I alienate people with my tourettes-like facial tics, I tell myself, if they can't accept me for who I am then they weren't worth being friends with, so oh well. I've got my friends and family that I adore.

I'd love to compose full time, but I know life isn't always perfect and I'll never expect it to be. I've been working manual labor since I was 13 years old. Growing up as a working class Mexican in L.A. definitely prepared me mentally for the fact that life won't always give you what you want. Rather than be angry, just work that much harder to achieve happiness.

Aaaand apologies for the long self centered rant hahaha.


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## gregh (May 18, 2018)

Replicant said:


> There has always been an exchange of labor for goods and services in the stead of currency and yes, every single successful civilization had a substantial workforce (slaves or paid) and trade.
> 
> It's off-topic, but I stand by my point: Countries without jobs and people to do them haven't done very well.



except it isn't true outside of a circular definition of "successful civilisation". The longest continuous civilisations (Aboriginal Australian, !Kung/San) go back 10s of thousands of years and don't / didn't use a workforce or currency in the sense you do. There are many others cultures similarly placed.


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## Replicant (May 18, 2018)

gregh said:


> except it isn't true outside of a circular definition of "successful civilisation". The longest continuous civilisations (Aboriginal Australian, !Kung/San) go back 10s of thousands of years and don't / didn't use a workforce or currency in the sense you do. There are many others cultures similarly placed.



This is exactly the point, Greg.

Would you rather live like the !Kung or similar cultures who remained in a fairly stagnant, tribal state, with little in the way of technological advancement for thousands of years...

or would you have rather lived in Greece, Rome, Egypt, Persia, etc? Hell, if I was a slave, I'd still rather be a slave there.

and I'm not shitting on these indigenous cultures. It's just the simple truth they didn't really "progress" in the way that the "great civilizations" of antiquity did for exactly the reasons I've said. And nobody give me some hippy reasoning about "It's like real freedom; off grid, man!" unless you send it via carrier pigeon or walk here and tell me that face to face.


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## gregh (May 18, 2018)

Replicant said:


> This is exactly the point, Greg.
> 
> Would you rather live like the !Kung or similar cultures who remained in a fairly stagnant, tribal state, with little in the way of technological advancement for thousands of years...
> 
> ...


With all respect you really need to challenge some of your assumptions with research and knowledge.


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## Replicant (May 18, 2018)

gregh said:


> With all respect you really need to challenge some of your assumptions with research and knowledge.



and with all respect, these aren't assumptions. I just don't see how this is at all up for debate.

Societies that had/have significant labor forces, economic strength via trade, etc. went on to build the greatest monuments and lasting works of art known the world over. They built roads, aqueducts, fountains, ships, compasses, etc. and now they build spaceships, computers, cars, and repeatedly rank among the happiest countries, most advanced, best healthcare, literacy, and highest GDPs. 

Yet, untouched-by-civilization tribes in South America remain in the same state they were 1000s of years ago, where every day is basically a struggle for survival. You may find some aspects of their lifestyles appealing...

but it's frankly quite ridiculous if you're suggesting that is somehow a superior system to live in, and actually kind of hypocritical given that you're reaping the benefits of this supposedly inferior, slave-to-the-grind ways. 

That's where I'm going to end my discussion on this matter.


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## gregh (May 18, 2018)

Replicant said:


> and with all respect, these aren't assumptions. I just don't see how this is at all up for debate.
> 
> Societies that had/have significant labor forces, economic strength via trade, etc. went on to build the greatest monuments and lasting works of art known the world over. They built roads, aqueducts, fountains, ships, compasses, etc. and now they build spaceships, computers, cars, and repeatedly rank among the happiest countries, most advanced, best healthcare, literacy, and highest GDPs.
> 
> ...


As I said earlier your reasoning is circular and your knowledge is limited but, hey, what you don't know only makes you stronger


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## Kyle Preston (May 18, 2018)

A few of these comments make something very clear to me: musicians could seriously benefit from the services of mental health professionals.


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## Mattzart (May 18, 2018)

Replicant said:


> This is exactly the point, Greg.
> 
> Would you rather live like the !Kung or similar cultures who remained in a fairly stagnant, tribal state, with little in the way of technological advancement for thousands of years...
> 
> ...



Considering that my ancestors were those with little in the way of technological advancements, I'll go with that ;]


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## Greg (May 18, 2018)

Love those posts Charlie. I don't think you should bite your tongue, that perspective forum needs a little reality check. So many aspiring composers hang out there and take those posts like the word of god. Really upsets me to think they will work themselves to death while neglecting the one thing that they loved in the first place... the art.


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## dgburns (May 18, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> Yeah, when I first saw that post from RK I had to restrain myself from dropping bombs directly into that FB group - that would have been a little too much of a direct attack, and I don't actually participate in that FB group so it didn't feel appropriate. Plus, he's sort of preaching to the choir over there - they seem to lap that stuff up - but to someone who wasn't raised in the culture of Hollywood aspiration it all feels a bit.... icky. My point was more about how the online echo chamber of "#ComposerLife #TheHustleIsReal #LivingTheDream", like any echo chamber, unwittingly creates a self-reinforcing feedback loop in which the participants try to one-up each other. Like,
> 
> "Oh, you think your last gig was hard? Rookie. On my last gig I had to compose a love theme on clarinet while playing the drums while mastering an album, all in ten minutes. I work 28 hours a day, nine days a week. You don't know *real* struggle, kid! Get on my level! #Hustle #ComposerLife #IwelcomeTheAbuse"
> 
> ...



Again, a glorious post. And I completely feel in sync.

To that point of mental health, media composing can be a very lonely endeavor, and that apparently is a bad thing for one’s mental health- being alone that is. All that time spent in the dungeon woodshedding away is not healthy imho (been doing this since I was 18 years old). And the irony is that we do it with the hope of having mass appeal and consumption. All by proxy, never by direct contact with our audience. I for one, grow a bit weary of not having a conversation with the audience. Feels like a one way conversation, and that sucks. And no amount of money helps smooth that over imho.

just some thoughts


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## C.R. Rivera (May 19, 2018)

If I might offer my dos centavos. I became dreadfully ill at the end of my naval career, and quite depressed. I think that music and making noise (even if not valued by others) can be a useful way to overcome. I can't speak from the other direction--that is pursuing art and becoming depressed, but I am glad to have gained a focus on the process and it "helped" me to heal, so to speak. It might be a lonely process to some or may, but any victory, perceived or real, can be a useful stimulant for optimism.

Cheers

Carlos


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## jiffybox (May 19, 2018)

Clouser just blew my mind. I'm going to go collect myself now, but damn if those two posts weren't the finest posts I've ever read here. Thank you, Charlie.


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## Paul Grymaud (May 20, 2018)

The brain of an average musician
Blue spheres = suspicious notes


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## asherpope (May 20, 2018)

Love everything Charlie has said! Yup that Facebook group leaves a lot to be desired. A lot of fawning over the words of a man making his fortune from the exploitation of composers. It seems like if some of the members suck up enough they might be in a with a shot to pass on their 15%!

Gotta say I'm pretty jealous of Mattzart - I've been thinking more and more about the life of a mailman (or 'postie' as we would say) and how seemingly appealing it is!


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## KerrySmith (May 20, 2018)

Thanks Charlie. For everything you said here. I’ve done this shit for 24 years because I like it, and I’m apparently good (enough) at it. I don’t want to hate doing it by forcing self-promotion, over-loaded projects, and *shudder* hustle. My best jobs always feel pretty good while I’m doing them, and tend to pay the best. The worst ones were always where I was trying to force myself way out of what felt natural, in order to “prove myself” to someone who was really demanding, had little appreciation for what I did, and whom I just did not click with.



charlieclouser said:


> There seems to be a couple of tendencies on the rise in recent years, maybe starting around the rise of social media and online forums, and as these mentalities become more and more ingrained in our culture, I can't help but think that they're not helping anyone's mental state:
> 
> - The culture of endless self-congratulation, mutual back-patting, and just plain log-rolling. Awards for best theme of fifteen seconds or less from an interactive Android-only game, blogs interviewing anyone who's ever uploaded a track to SoundCloud, etc. The endless stream of *fake fame* creates an aspirational aura around anything that moves, often for no good reason. This mentality has created a vast suck that tries to grab ahold of anything that two people have paid attention to, and tries to get three more people to pay attention to it.
> 
> ...


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## MatFluor (May 20, 2018)

Glad to hear this from you @charlieclouser .

I'm at the start of my career, but that reassures the way I see things. Family and mental sanity (and physical) are key things for every job. But it0s hard to judge when "enough is enough".

I still have a nice dayjob, but christmas two years ago (as I wrote earlier) I had a small burnout (thank god only small) - that put to front what I already knew "I work too much". Now I approach things differently, give me the free time I (and my fiancée) deserve and need.

It's great to hear that it is supposed to be fun, because it is - and due to the narrative you see everywhere, it almost feels like "Hey, it's fun and it goes smooth - I must be doing something wrong because I need to suffer, that's what the others say!". Glad It's not like that. But I guess the truth lies somewhere in between - if you have a few successful films under your belt I guess you can take things more slowly or "easy" if you don't want to go as high as possible. But until then it's a kind of a stoney way it seems - especially if you're not "in the scene", or if you decide yourself that you want to be good at a certain niche (in my case, funnily enough, horror, drama and sci-fi). But hey, I'm at the start of my composer career and have a small "local success" career with with my former metal band to look back. 16 years of making music should count for something


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## Kyle Preston (Jun 16, 2018)

Just want to share the followup article. It contains helpful resources. Particularly this .pdf. My favorite takeaway quote, which echoes the sharp insights already posted here by @charlieclouser: 



> *There's no point in in having your dream job if you're going to let it kill you*


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## charlieclouser (Jun 16, 2018)

Kyle Preston said:


> Just want to share the followup article. It contains helpful resources. Particularly this .pdf. My favorite takeaway quote, which echoes the sharp insights already posted here by @charlieclouser:



Good stuff.

If I were just starting out these days, and I could actually get an accurate picture on the realities of a career in music, I think I'd be more cautious than I was when halfway through college I said, "I hate math, so screw architecture, I'm gonna make records!"

Back in the eighties when I made that call, it still took a large and expensive studio full of a variety of trained specialists to get a record made. Four different kinds of musicians, a producer, an engineer, an assistant engineer / tape op, a tech to calibrate things and make repairs, guitar and drum techs, etc. etc. etc. So there were more niches to be filled. I made my start as a specialist in samplers, sequencers, and synths, and work in those areas kind of spilled over and allowed me to widen my scope. I'd be in the control room for days at a time, just riding herd on all the samplers, sequencers, and sync - but I got to watch and learn how all of those other folks did what they did. Those were my favorite kind of records to work on too - big rooms, big budgets, big consoles, big racks... just a big operation all around. 

These days it's quite different, and one-person-operations are kind of the norm and not the exception, and so many of the old trusty paths to working your way up the ladder don't exist in anything like the same form they did when I started out. How many composers do you know who work with five other people in the room watching over their shoulder?

Sure, at the very top of the heap they still make records (and film scores) in much the same way as they always have, and with the same basic layout of personnel that existed when I started. Artists like U2 and RadioHead (and composers like HZ) don't just throw down beats on a laptop - at least I hope they don't! But these days there's tons of stuff on the lower end of the spectrum that is just done by one or two people in a room, just like they make lots of records these days. That just wasn't an option back in the day, unless you were making records on an Otari 8-track or whatever. So there's not as many opportunities to watch and learn as there used to be, not as wide a variety of paths to a career as there used to be.


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## AlexRuger (Jun 16, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> So there's not as many opportunities to watch and learn as there used to be, not as wide a variety of paths to a career as there used to be.



And it's much, much lonelier to boot.


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## JohnG (Jun 17, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> there's not as many opportunities to watch and learn as there used to be, not as wide a variety of paths to a career as there used to be



Very true. When I was starting, a few guys fortunately took pity on me and hired me as an orchestrator, so I was able to go to Warner Brothers or Paramount _every week_ and hear live players performing music (mostly) written by others but orchestrated by me. Sometimes I was limited to few decisions -- it was all on the page; but often enough I had to finish a cue out, work from a simple sketch into full arrangements or write from scratch.

It is impossible to imagine where else that learning could have taken place. Hearing top pros play material every week even if you don't write it is so inspiring and educational. But if you've sweated over it in consecutive all-nighters the learning goes fairly deep. "Why did I write the trumpets there???"

I don't know how anyone gets that kind of experience now? It seems as though the path is "all electronic" for a long time and then if one finally becomes successful, one is hopelessly dependent on the crew of orchestrators and arrangers out there to translate mockups into playable scores.

In some ways it was lucky to start when I did (early 90s) because the synths and samplers simply couldn't cut it to replace live players, so producers had to come up with money for at least some live elements. That in turn led to learning to orchestrate, working with copyists, engineers, assistant engineers (and all the other team-mates to which Charlie alluded). 

By contrast, today, samples are much more convincing and, on top of that, the aesthetic of electronics in scoring is common. So I just don't know how one learns as a young person anymore.


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## Beluga (Jun 17, 2018)

This may come across a bit weird, but I believe wanting to be a music composer and mental illness go somewhat in pairs. We strive for global recognition, we want to be perfect or write the perfect masterpiece and then we think we are the lowest of the low, compare ourselves to the masters and pale in comparison. We all dream of another life and somewhat strive for infinity. Then when reality strikes, if we try to work as composers we confront an endless stream of rejection our fragile minds have to deal with.

I wrote an article a while back on how to keep your shit together as a composer but I can’t find it right now.


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## Kyle Preston (Jun 17, 2018)

JohnG said:


> It seems as though the path is "all electronic" for a long time and then if one finally becomes successful, one is hopelessly dependent on the crew of orchestrators and arrangers out there to translate mockups into playable scores.



In my experience (outside of LA), this is the new standard for up-and-comers. My problem tends to be convincing directors, devs, & producers to _fund_ live players. Every project so far, the best I can hope for is enough to hire one performer - but it’s usually just me with some weird instrument I built by myself, alone, isolated, with my microphones and bass traps.

But to your point John, I’m not sure today, how to develop the kind of experience and skills you did, except maybe in school? But I’m a curious person - I’ve never met an orchestrator or arranger that wasn’t willing to share their insights if I just simply asked. I want to speak their language fluently so that I can work with them competently in the future. Between that and books, I don’t know of any other avenues available to develop that kind of wisdom.


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## AlexRuger (Jun 17, 2018)

JohnG said:


> I don't know how anyone gets that kind of experience now? It seems as though the path is "all electronic" for a long time and then if one finally becomes successful, one is hopelessly dependent on the crew of orchestrators and arrangers out there to translate mockups into playable scores.



Yup. I won't go into specifics, but on a recent project this issue became incredibly clear. People who had never actually written for live orchestra, but had written for "orchestra" (in the box) for so long that they thought they could. Boy, were they wrong, and getting that music into shape on a deadline so that actual, real humans could play it was one of the worst professional experiences of my life to date.


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## StevenMcDonald (Jun 17, 2018)

Beluga said:


> This may come across a bit weird, but I believe wanting to be a music composer and mental illness go somewhat in pairs. We strive for global recognition, we want to be perfect or write the perfect masterpiece and then we think we are the lowest of the low, compare ourselves to the masters and pale in comparison. We all dream of another life and somewhat strive for infinity. Then when reality strikes, if we try to work as composers we confront an endless stream of rejection our fragile minds have to deal with.
> 
> I wrote an article a while back on how to keep your shit together as a composer but I can’t find it right now.



I feel like this post is kind of narrow minded and only takes one personality type into account There are plenty of composers who work in the shadows and enjoy it. For me at the very least, none of this stuff about striving for global recognition or writing the perfect masterpiece rings true.

Composers who just want to (and succeed at it) live a quiet life and make a living writing music definitely exist. There's nothing mentally ill about that.


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## Fab (Jun 17, 2018)

Some super interesting and brilliantly annoying insights here.

This topic is a minefield, in my opinion. 

But, my dad would probably just say, listen;

Your health, family and money is important, and in that order.


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## JohnG (Jun 20, 2018)

Fab said:


> Your health, family and money is important, and in that order.



Priorities are a bit of an issue, no doubt.

I've been at this for a while and am super grateful for being able to do it full time. That said, often I get more satisfaction out of charity work or doing something with my children than music. Don't get me wrong -- I love writing and especially for live players (any size ensemble). There's nothing like hearing one's music performed.

But the infrastructure and OCD perfection thing can be exhausting. I'm weary of the niggling labour involved in making "it's going to sound like this" mockups.


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