# StaffPad?



## saboo

Hey everyone, I'm really interested in StaffPad now that it is on iPadOS, but I had a few questions and concerns. If you have the app, please share your experiences.

First off, I'm curious about the size and pricing of the libraries. On the app store page it shows some of the expansions, but not all. How much does it cost for OT's and Spitfire's orchestras? (woods, brass, strings, and perc)

Second off, how does StaffPad actually perform? I have the 2018 iPad Pro 12.9", and I've been having issues with apps clearing out of RAM all the time so I worry how it will fare with big orchestral libraries - not to mention CPU power (though I've heard it has quite good CPU performance)

I'm also a lefty, so if you are too and have any experiences, please let me know.

Other than that, I'm curious about your general opinions around it. Is it worth it? Does it replace a proper notation app like Dorico, Sibelius or Finale? In what ways is it better/worse than the aforementioned apps? Does it perform well?

Thanks for any and all experiences/opinions you share!


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## jdrcomposer

Most libraries are priced at $100. I have the Berlin Orchestra (minus percussion) plus first chairs and harp (which was a bit cheaper at around $70). 

I haven't had any problems aside from the random crash here and there, but this has only happened about 2 or 3 times. All smooth on my 2018 iPad pro. 

Also a lefty, no problems to speak of. 

I have not gone back to Sibelius since the new update made recognition so much better than before. I've barely even gone back to logic unless I really have a short deadline. Anything orchestral I now use StaffPad for.


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## MisteR

Already a big thread about this. I just posted the list of expansions here:






StaffPad - Now Available for IPad with Major Sample Libraries Available


And everything that's supposed to be touch can then be applied with mouse clicks instead?




vi-control.net


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## emasters

2018 iPad Pro with no issues here. Good interview with David (co-founder) on another thread, explaining how they handle the play-back engine (since it's not real-time like a DAW). This actually has been a game-changer for me. Some products claim to be revolutionary -- this is. Being able to sit in a chair, write naturally on a score that plays back with best-in-class libraries, is amazing. Only caution -- the handwriting recognition takes time to learn. So you'll need to be patient as you begin.


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## wcreed51

When jdrcomposer say "libraries" he means sections of libraries


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## Bollen

I've been using it since it came out on a Surface Pro 3. It's quite good and for me it has replaced paper, not Sibelius/Dorico. It's great for writing/composing without the usual distractions of programs, but the playback is abominable... It's a shame they didn't decide to work with the note performer guy instead of the extremely overpriced libraries they chose. I was lucky to get in on it in the early days where they had much cheaper libraries. I wouldn't pay for any of them since it doesn't really improve the performance that much. 

In any case, if you prefer writing over MIDI/Mouse input, then I strongly recommend it. Just skip the libraries...


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## ALittleNightMusic

How's the writing recognition now? I know in the beginning it was like 50/50 at best for many folks (myself included - I got a refund due to that).


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## dcoscina

ALittleNightMusic said:


> How's the writing recognition now? I know in the beginning it was like 50/50 at best for many folks (myself included - I got a refund due to that).


Since 1.1.1 it's much improved. I'm a lefty and I have no issues drawing in notes, hairpins, etc. Dynamics like "forte" sometimes cause issues. but there is Enter As Text for that which I often do. I've written a fair bit on the app and find it a very transparent system of composing now. Music that would take hours or days to realize in a DAW can take minutes in Staffpad (for me). Granted I'm writing more concert works these days and less film score stuff. However here's a couple odes to Jerry Goldsmith done entirely on SP.


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## Bollen

ALittleNightMusic said:


> How's the writing recognition now? I know in the beginning it was like 50/50 at best for many folks (myself included - I got a refund due to that).


Well I had to relearn to write according to Staffpad back in the day when it was pretty bad, so now it feels pretty good!


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## jonathanparham

ALittleNightMusic said:


> How's the writing recognition now? I know in the beginning it was like 50/50 at best for many folks (myself included - I got a refund due to that).


I had Staffpad in 2015 and saw the potential but took a lot of getting used to. The 2020 release, including the most recent update is night and day. Even without the library add ons(which are AMAZING), I see a lot more notes being recognized. Still have trouble with ledgers and septuplets BUT I'm getting a lot of sketches realized quickly.


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## J.T.

Bollen said:


> I've been using it since it came out on a Surface Pro 3......but the playback is abominable...



In what ways? I'm still on the fence and would like to hear more about this if possible. Much of the testimony over on the leviathan Staffpad thread had me thinking just the opposite.

TIA


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## jonathanparham

J.T. said:


> In what ways? I'm still on the fence and would like to hear more about this if possible. Much of the testimony over on the leviathan Staffpad thread had me thinking just the opposite.
> 
> TIA


I'm not sure what Bollen has experienced, but on VI and the FB user group I've mentioned my problems.
I have sent support tix for my staffpad on a surface 3 since purchasing the Berlin series as I am experience drop outs. Not all the time but enough that it bugs me. Basically my surface pro THREE can't handle it. I've been trying to do things like screen capture some short pieces here and there and with the addons, it can't do it. Before the upgrade and add ons, my Surface was fine But the add on libraries are addictive and make it hard to use the stock sounds when the Berlin Strings sound amazing with a run. I think my problem has to do with the graphics card as well because my surface has 8 gigs of ram in it and I've run pro tools as a small playback mobile rig with it. I'm hoping to have a used Surface Six in the mail shortly.
I think for some composers that learn the handwriting recognition, Staffpad will improve workflow. IMO It's not going to replace 30 year old Finale, DAWs, Copyists or engravers. But pencil and paper are going to get a good 'run for their money.' I can see having a workflow of Staffpad, then XLM to one of the current notation programs for cleaning up and getting it to a music contractor and/or players. 
The immediacy is unreal. After I downloaded the Berlin series, I didn't launch my DAW for like a week. I could hear quickly back my decisions without mocking anything up.


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## Bollen

J.T. said:


> In what ways? I'm still on the fence and would like to hear more about this if possible. Much of the testimony over on the leviathan Staffpad thread had me thinking just the opposite.
> 
> TIA


Well... I come from always attempting extremely realistic mockups using the finest and most ellaborate sample libraries available... So take my opinion with a whole barrel of salt. To me it sounds inert and very "MIDI". I can barely tolerate NotePerformer, which I respect, so StaffPad falls too far in the synthy side of things for me. But again, highly recommended for _Writing _music.


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## Juanki

jonathanparham said:


> I'm not sure what Bollen has experienced, but on VI and the FB user group I've mentioned my problems.
> I have sent support tix for my staffpad on a surface 3 since purchasing the Berlin series as I am experience drop outs. Not all the time but enough that it bugs me. Basically my surface pro THREE can't handle it. I've been trying to do things like screen capture some short pieces here and there and with the addons, it can't do it. Before the upgrade and add ons, my Surface was fine But the add on libraries are addictive and make it hard to use the stock sounds when the Berlin Strings sound amazing with a run. I think my problem has to do with the graphics card as well because my surface has 8 gigs of ram in it and I've run pro tools as a small playback mobile rig with it. I'm hoping to have a used Surface Six in the mail shortly.
> I think for some composers that learn the handwriting recognition, Staffpad will improve workflow. IMO It's not going to replace 30 year old Finale, DAWs, Copyists or engravers. But pencil and paper are going to get a good 'run for their money.' I can see having a workflow of Staffpad, then XLM to one of the current notation programs for cleaning up and getting it to a music contractor and/or players.
> The immediacy is unreal. After I downloaded the Berlin series, I didn't launch my DAW for like a week. I could hear quickly back my decisions without mocking anything up.


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## Juanki

In the surface pro 3 only is not possible to have 8 gb ram. it is only 2 o 4 gb ram and this is the problem that you have. I have the surface pro 4 and i have 4 gb ram of memory iwork perfect on staffpad. could you look how much memory ram do you have on the surface pro 3. I would like to now how much memory ram need when you install berlin strings or another libraries?, because i only have 4 gb of memory.


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## jonathanparham

Juanki said:


> In the surface pro 3 only is not possible to have 8 gb ram. it is only 2 o 4 gb ram and this is the problem that you have.


It is possible as per my screenshot. Now maybe there's something going on with how my Surface 'allocates' the ram, but I have 8 gigs. In one of my support tix to Staffpad LTD, and, mentioned in this thread, I've run Pro Tools 12 on this machine with a template for EWQL Gold in Kontakt. So I'm baffled why I can run Pro Tools but not Staffpad. Mr. Hearn did inquire about my graphics card at one point.



Juanki said:


> I have the surface pro 4 and I have 4 Gb ram of memory iwork perfect on staffpad.


 I'd caution you though. When I asked Mr. Hearn about moving to a Surface 4, I kinda got a response of 'maybe but it's an older machine compared to what's out now.' Glad it's working for you and I'd love to know what you're doing that I'm not. Maybe my processor is just too slow. I had slight hiccups before the upgrade earlier this year, but I suspect it's not just the store library expansions, but the software upgrade with Staffpad on win. I seem to have a problem when I'm doing lots of musical dynamic changes and layers of instruments; it's like I can hear a sonic build-up of reverb or something. Someone on the other Staffpad VI thread has a 5+min piece on Mac IOS and only 4 gigs of ram; and it's fine. Another user on the FB Staffpad group has an Ipad pro had a longish piece but seems to begin having difficulty when He added Berlin first Chairs.




Juanki said:


> could you look how much memory ram do you have on the surface pro 3. I would like to now how much memory ram need when you install berlin strings or another libraries?, because i only have 4 gb of memory.


I don't know what to say outside of my screenshot. The other Thread has people responding to other hard drive needs.


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## Bollen

It works perfectly smooth for me on the Surface Pro 3, but I don't use any of the modern libraries, just the old "legacy" ones they sold a while back. Although Olympus Choir is included in that.

I can confirm I also have 8GB of RAM on it.


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## Juanki

i work perfectly on the surface pro 4. i work with berlin strings and i don´t have problems. With my only 4GB of Ram, I have taken out all program that i don´t need and when i work with staffpad and berlin strings it only occupaid 2.9GB Ram. 2.4GB is with out Staffpad. 2.9GB is working with staffpad with or without berlin strings. But the problem the surface is that the headphones have a very bad sound for me.


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## jonathanparham

Juanki said:


> i work perfectly on the surface pro 4. i work with berlin strings and i don´t have problems. With my only 4GB of Ram, I have taken out all program that i don´t need and when i work with staffpad and berlin strings it only occupaid 2.9GB Ram. 2.4GB is with out Staffpad. 2.9GB is working with staffpad with or without berlin strings. But the problem the surface is that the headphones have a very bad sound for me.


Glad it's working. I'm curious on the Surface Pro, once you add more libraries how it will perform. But you are correct in that, I use the Surface Pro for other things, Pro Tools, also spectral analysis for RF, zoom during the pandemic. I'm planning to use the next machine for Art only namely Staff Pad and I'll see how that does. Glad it's working for you.


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## dcoscina

A new movement I'm working on from my Night Music Suite.


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## jonathanparham

dcoscina said:


> A new movement I'm working on from my Night Music Suite.



Nice! in an ideal world it be neat to see you recreate that on a DAW, then compare Staffpad time to DAw time lol


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## dcoscina

jonathanparham said:


> Nice! in an ideal world it be neat to see you recreate that on a DAW, then compare Staffpad time to DAw time lol


Nope. Not even a little bit interested. No time nor inclination.


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## brandowalk

I’ve redone a DAW piece (played originally y keyboard input) in StaffPad and it was better in SP.


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## Bollen

brandowalk said:


> I’ve redone a DAW piece (played originally y keyboard input) in StaffPad and it was better in SP.


Evidence please... 😜


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## MDMullins

I bought it and then asked for a refund. I understand the draw, but keyboards are incredibly efficient at entering music. I head the music at a fairly large Parrish and have to enter multiple pieces per week. At Christmas and Easter, that number goes up into the dozens, with full orchestrations. What would take me hours handwriting things in I can do, for free, in MuseScore in 15 or 20 minutes. This would be true even if StaffPad were a fully mature concept, but the software was incredibly finicky. Release early, release often should no longer be a thing. If they’re going to charge a hundred dollars for an app, companies need to get it right. It would be nice to have access to the great libraries on the iPad, but really, give me a keyboard and shortcuts. I suspect there is an efficient way to enter music with a pen, but it won’t be by drawing the music as you would on real staff paper. There needs to be some sort of dependable shorthand.

Just my 2-cents.


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## Bollen

MDMullins said:


> I bought it and then asked for a refund. I understand the draw, but keyboards are incredibly efficient at entering music. I head the music at a fairly large Parrish and have to enter multiple pieces per week. At Christmas and Easter, that number goes up into the dozens, with full orchestrations. What would take me hours handwriting things in I can do, for free, in MuseScore in 15 or 20 minutes. This would be true even if StaffPad were a fully mature concept, but the software was incredibly finicky. Release early, release often should no longer be a thing. If they’re going to charge a hundred dollars for an app, companies need to get it right. It would be nice to have access to the great libraries on the iPad, but really, give me a keyboard and shortcuts. I suspect there is an efficient way to enter music with a pen, but it won’t be by drawing the music as you would on real staff paper. There needs to be some sort of dependable shorthand.
> 
> Just my 2-cents.


Hmmm... Yes, I tend to agree. I only use it when I'm sitting at the piano sketching, when I need to go fast I move to a desktop with a MIDI keyboard and a StreamDeck. 20 times faster at least...


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## MDMullins

Bollen said:


> Hmmm... Yes, I tend to agree. I only use it when I'm sitting at the piano sketching, when I need to go fast I move to a desktop with a MIDI keyboard and a StreamDeck. 20 times faster at least...



Well I was actually talking about just a QWERTY keyboard, but I imagine a musical keyboard would be even faster.


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## PaulieDC

saboo said:


> Second off, how does StaffPad actually perform? I have the 2018 iPad Pro 12.9", and I've been having issues with apps clearing out of RAM all the time so I worry how it will fare with big orchestral libraries...


Just posted a thread to help with iPad RAM issues.


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## aeliron

saboo said:


> Hey everyone, I'm really interested in StaffPad now that it is on iPadOS, but I had a few questions and concerns. If you have the app, please share your experiences.
> 
> First off, I'm curious about the size and pricing of the libraries. On the app store page it shows some of the expansions, but not all. How much does it cost for OT's and Spitfire's orchestras? (woods, brass, strings, and perc)
> 
> Second off, how does StaffPad actually perform? I have the 2018 iPad Pro 12.9", and I've been having issues with apps clearing out of RAM all the time so I worry how it will fare with big orchestral libraries - not to mention CPU power (though I've heard it has quite good CPU performance)
> 
> I'm also a lefty, so if you are too and have any experiences, please let me know.
> 
> Other than that, I'm curious about your general opinions around it. Is it worth it? Does it replace a proper notation app like Dorico, Sibelius or Finale? In what ways is it better/worse than the aforementioned apps? Does it perform well?
> 
> Thanks for any and all experiences/opinions you share!


On a 2015 iPad Pro, so far a disaster. Recognition is hit and miss, mostly miss. Wonder if the iPad is too old for this?


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## Jett Hitt

aeliron said:


> On a 2015 iPad Pro, so far a disaster. Recognition is hit and miss, mostly miss. Wonder if the iPad is too old for this?


Your iPad is fine at least for smaller scores. Recognition is what it is. Watch a lot of videos and do the tutorials.


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## Gingerbread

aeliron said:


> On a 2015 iPad Pro, so far a disaster. Recognition is hit and miss, mostly miss. Wonder if the iPad is too old for this?


Recognition doesn't have to do with the age or model of iPad, it has everything to do with writing things in a very particular way that it wants.

This video is very helpful:


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## aeliron

Yep, will do!


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## Bollen

Agreed, I had to completely relearn the way I wrote music, but to my surprise it didn't take me that long at all (around 3 months maybe). The only thing I still struggle with is complex tuplets and/or polyrhythms which I tend to use a lot.

The other very important tip, not mentioned above, is to write as little information as possible, then tap to validate, and then add extras such as articulations, dynamics, etc. Staffpad really struggles to process too much information.


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## wcreed51

Bollen said:


> write as little information as possible, then tap to validate


This is SO important. Otherwise you'll never know what it is that's preventing your input from being recognized.


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## aeliron

Yep, that really makes a difference! Thanks for the pointers. I really like what StaffPad offers otherwise in terms of sketching out ideas. Although I wonder what it would sound like with NotePerformer ...


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