# Norman Ludwin Orchestration 15 Lessons Ebook



## Vlzmusic (May 28, 2017)

Greetings fellow readers!

So... As the topic says - I was really disappointed with the "15 lessons" Ebook version of the Norman Ludwin orchestration teachings. 

Why did I get it in a first place?

- You pitched it to me, Vi-Control, by sending an email to my inbox, implying I should: "Learn Orchestration the right way from renowned Hollywood Orchestrator" either by taking skype lessons, or at least starting out with an ebook version of 15 written lessons (Hint: there is close to ZERO mention of any Hollywood music orchestration techniques in the Ebook guide.) 

I understand that no one can make you orchestration genie in 15 written lessons, but its not the case here, cause the ebook doesn`t even tries to do so! In my decade long dealing with music tutorials, guides etc. I`ve never witnessed such a desperate move to shove in a bunch of music history, general knowledge, instrumentation, notation, score layout and bunch of other things, to pass as an Orchestration guide! Most, if not all of this knowledge is easily picked up online, or in other instrumentation guides, such as Garritan/Korsakov project etc.

There is a nice side to it - some extensive classical examples with nicely marked orchestration analysis, presented on the full printed scores. I guess its the only thing stopping me from buyers remorse. Is 25$ a huge sum? Definitely not, but I expected at least a taste of that Hollywood expertise and "right way" hyped by the Vi-Control commercial, which is supposed to be showered upon those who order the actual online lessons. 

And I got it, in a sense, after a dozen of reminders like (not a direct citing): "Hey, don`t forget to add those dynamic markings" "Hey, make sure you don`t slur the same pitch" (loved that one) So its definitely sounds like a crush course for someone who needs to print up something readable, and understandable for actual session musicians. In short, don`t expect to get a lot of practical orchestration info. Not a recommendation. Thanks.


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## micrologus (May 28, 2017)

Norman Ludwin wrote another ebook with analysis of great film scores. Personally, as a music teacher, I found the ebooks of Norman Ludwin very interesting and inspiring.


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## sazema (May 28, 2017)

Yeah, like 15 steps to success 
And at the end of book says: Do the same thing like me and you'll be rich  Sounds familiar?

I have no idea what kind of book is that, but just from its title I can judge about it and it's potential kind of book for avoiding. At least main point is earning money and not you as a seeker for information.

Golden rule: "There is no science without the hassle". No shortcuts. (At least in my case )


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## Vlzmusic (May 28, 2017)

sazema said:


> Yeah, like 15 steps to success
> And at the end of book says: Do the same thing like me and you'll be rich  Sounds familiar?
> 
> I have no idea what kind of book is that, but just from its title I can judge about it and it's potential kind of book for avoiding. At least main point is earning money and not you as a seeker for information.
> ...



Hi sazema, I am sorry if my post made that impression, cause its entirely not what I meant. The ebook was not advertised as a golden pill, neither I wanted one. I was just expecting a pound of meat in my jumbo burger, but found its made of 80% salads - which is all good and healthy, but not meat. Instrumentation, notation, musicology are great, but these are other subjects. Anyway, if this guide is an appetizer for the online lessons, they made the opposite for me, for some reason. Though I did wish for a skype session with Korsakov, after reading his stuff.


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## resound (May 28, 2017)

I'm curious, what did you expect to find in these lessons? You mentioned instrumentation, notation and score layout as "other subjects", but they are absolutely not. These are the exact skills required for any orchestrator to produce a notated score that will be played by an orchestra.


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## Vlzmusic (May 28, 2017)

Hi resound, and thanks for asking. I`ll try to rephrase the "it takes a village...." joke, for best of my ability. So - how many renowned Hollywood orchestrators it takes, to memorize violin range, that Mozart was a genius composer, that you should use dynamic markings, and get hang of slures.

On another note, maybe I should have mentioned in my initial post, that I was turned away by the bulletin, almost powerpoint format of this guide. You see, it was advertised on a very personal level, so almost felt like, hey, I am going to look on the subject from someone`s perspective, after all, I am music graduate myself, and what interests me the most, is someones talented craftsmanship, and angle of view. 

So I guess if it was just: "Hello, sit down, and I`ll try to explain why I care about this craft, and what I believe in.." - you wouldn`t hear a word from me. But the guide ended up being very impersonal, (in my opinion of course) you just can`t see the man behind text. A bunch of data (with some mistakes too), only a small portion of which is really supposed to teach you how to SOUND better - which was the main hype and purpose on the commercial leaflet.


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## desert (May 28, 2017)

Vlzmusic said:


> Hi resound, and thanks for asking. I`ll try to rephrase the "it takes a village...." joke, for best of my ability. So - how many renowned Hollywood orchestrators it takes, to memorize violin range, that Mozart was a genius composer, that you should use dynamic markings, and get hang of slures.
> 
> On another note, maybe I should have mentioned in my initial post, that I was turned away by the bulletin, almost powerpoint format of this guide. You see, it was advertised on a very personal level, so almost felt like, hey, I am going to look on the subject from someone`s perspective, after all, I am music graduate myself, and what interests me the most, is someones talented craftsmanship, and angle of view.
> 
> So I guess if it was just: "Hello, sit down, and I`ll try to explain why I care about this craft, and what I believe in.." - you wouldn`t hear a word from me. But the guide ended up being very impersonal, (in my opinion of course) you just can`t see the man behind text. A bunch of data (with some mistakes too), only a small portion of which is really supposed to teach you how to SOUND better - which was the main hype and purpose on the commercial leaflet.



Thanks for your review. I was going to buy the books too, expecting an extended analysis of orchestration than what I just learnt at uni, and of course his tips and tricks in film music. But, from what you are saying, I might hold off a bit until I read more reviews.


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## Dave Connor (May 28, 2017)

Much of what is called the _Hollywood Sound _is the Richard Strauss orchestration school as handed down by the great orchestrator Herb Spencer to John Williams. There's basically triple everything (instruments) at a minimum with a lot of layering for a certain sheen and homogeny of sound. When someone like Desplat came along with a leaner Classical sound people found it refreshing not surprisingly. Hans Zimmer really has his own thing, to mention a rather new school with sample and live instrument layering. Still a cousin to traditional orchestration because it's basically the same family of instruments (his use of exotic instruments and synth wizardry aside.)

The principle that the musical content is generally more favorably orchestrated with one approach rather than another has been recognized for centuries and still holds true. What is also true is that studying the scores of both the content and sound you're after is eminently logical. So if you can't get a Hollywood score by a composer you like, then study what scores in the repertoire influenced it as far as content and or orchestration.


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## ed buller (May 29, 2017)

that's a shame. I love his books. That one is probably the most basic but nevertheless his examples of classical scores are well worth having. Perhaps if you described what book it is you are looking for ( or what you wish to learn ) we can help

best

e


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## Rowy (May 29, 2017)

Go to IMSLP, download the orchestral scores of compositions that were originally piano pieces, like _Pavane pour un enfant défunte_ by Ravel. Study them, compare them, and then look into orchestration for film.

Yeah, I know, I'm old school


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## trumpoz (May 29, 2017)

I bought the Ludwin books on Hollywood scoring before they were pulled from sale and redone. They are a gold mine of resources - particularly the scores. Ill have to find them and take another look.


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## wst3 (May 30, 2017)

I've picked up a couple of the Ludwin books ("An Anthology for Study Vol 3 - Film Music" and "Developing Variations") and so far I've found both of them to be, well, not to quote Trumpoz, but a gold mine, especially the Anthology.

What I was looking for - I've listened to my fair share of music of all sorts over the last 58 years, but I am far from a brilliant transcriber, so sometimes it is really cool to peek behind the curtain! "AHA, so that's how so-and-so got that effect!" Could be an orchestration choice, could be a harmonic choice, could be some device I'd never have even considered.

It would be lovely if Mr. Ludwin or anyone really created a catalog of every musical trick and device ever used, but that would be a book far too large to hold my attention (or worse, if it did hold my attention I'd never get anything done<G>!)

And part of it may be how I am approaching my "studies", which is to mock up at least the general ideas put forth in the books, and then experiment with my ideas so I can compare them to the examples. It's been really productive, if not more than a little time consuming.

I have worked through other books, and absolutely enjoyed the Garritan/NSS Rimsky-Korsakov course - which I really need to revisit now that I know a little more, and have libraries that offer more possibilities.

Sounds to me like the volume you picked up is maybe more about the mechanics of orchestrating, which is valuable, but not necessarily inspiring. Perhaps you might pick up one of the anthologies and take it for a spin. From your description I think I will probably pick up the 15 lessons book in the hopes that it might help me be more efficient, or at least help me skip over common errors?

My experience anyway... if it helps.


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## Norman (Jun 9, 2017)

Vlzmusic said:


> Greetings fellow readers!
> 
> Well Vizmusic...I guess you are entitled to your opinion and I'm sorry you were disappointed. I'm certainly not going to get into a debate with you regarding your _"zero practical knowledge_" and "_desperate attemp_t" etc. slaps, except to point out that if you think that "_music history, general knowledge, instrumentation, notation, score layout" _ has nothing to do with orchestration then I don't know what to tell you.
> 
> ...


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## ed buller (Jun 9, 2017)

how about THAT for service ?


e


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## Norman (Jun 9, 2017)

resound said:


> I'm curious, what did you expect to find in these lessons? You mentioned instrumentation, notation and score layout as "other subjects", but they are absolutely not. These are the exact skills required for any orchestrator to produce a notated score that will be played by an orchestra.


My point exactly!


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## Daisser (Jun 9, 2017)

I'm sorry the OP has not found the material rewarding but Norman's books are designed for a wide range of skill and knowledge and start with the first book you mentioned as an into. Information of what's contained can be found in other areas but it's presented in a very concise and direct way in his books. He does come from a scoring / playing with with live musician background which is why you'll see score emphasis. Analyzing your music in printed score form with proper markings is one way to really understand the internal balance of your work that's hard to see when its just in a DAW in MIDI form.

When you dive further and look at his other books such as "An Anthology for Study Vol 3 - Film Music" and "Developing Variations" as wst3 mentioned you'll really get an analysis of material that is impossible to find elsewhere.

I take Skype lessons with him as well and he is extremely kind, knowledgeable, and an excellent teacher. If you take a lesson or two he'll take you through a book of your choosing and give and even more in depth look at the material.


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## Frederick Russ (Jun 9, 2017)

VI invites varying opinions and it is easy to state them without any risk behind the anonymity of a user name. In this case however, I feel compelled to say that here is what I do know personally about Norman Ludwin:

He is a seasoned and and highly talented orchestrator; collaborator and musician within Hollywood circles.
Norman has worked on high visibility productions including (but not limited to) Star Wars, Star Trek, Mission Impossible and Spiderman.
He has worked closely with Michael Giacchino, JJ Abrams, John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith and many others.
Norman has a doctorate in composition and has an excellent reputation in our industry.
He also takes risks and offers his expertise via teaching and his books. His reputation is impeccable.
Perhaps you didn't find this specific book beneficial. Of course you're entitled to your opinion. But to label your thread the way you did seems more upon the agenda to get validation for your take rather than to open the floor with less of the slanted take. It would have been better to state what actually might be true - like asking a question inviting others to chime in rather than making a statement of your agenda.

By the way, I removed some of the inflammatory way in how you titled the thread originally.

It seems easy to lend "fair and impartial" opinions while under the guise and safety of anonymity. At minimum it means risking nothing. Norman, on the other hand, takes many risks (including using his actual name rather than a handle). He wants to be seen and not hide out. Norman's reputation stands for itself.

Outspoken critics have been known to burn their own bridges that they may need to later traverse to achieve success. One of the unspoken rules in the music industry is that it can take up to 20 years to build a solid reputation yet only 2 minutes to burn it all down. People get blacklisted from work all the time. In light of that, I think its wise to consider the impact of your feedback. We are an industry based on a network.

And at minimum, Norman's talent, contribution to our field and teachings are worth at least some courtesy. I can also say after talking with him at length that he is a super guy, that he also is quite human, and can bleed and has feelings too. He spent a lot of time putting that book together and to have you rip it up like it was trash felt mean spirited. Social media by nature gives us permission to say what we would never dream of saying in a live professional setting.


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## Dave Connor (Jun 9, 2017)

If I may add a generic point to Frederick's informed, pertinent point: I will buy a Book or a Sample Library or anything that will help me in any aspect of my musical growth or ability to express that growth even if I just get a single nugget out of it at some expense. So if there's a single exceptional instrument in a collection that I purchase, I'm happy. If an orchestration book helps me understand one single thing better in one chapter out of fifteen I'm happy. Usually you get a higher percentage return but I am always purchasing books or recordings or whetever and gleaning just a few things. I learned a long time ago that you have to have a voracious appetite and gobble up everything you can.

It is possible to make a bad purchase and get burned but it's the guy that is willing to suffer a few losses that is going to emerge with an arsenal of ideas from various sources that will be a more interesting composer. Because he/she valued every drop of information they could get their hands on and were willing to pay the price for it.


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## Vlzmusic (Jun 11, 2017)

Mr. Ludwin and Mr. Russ

Following your responses to this thread, I would like to clarify that there is no agenda behind my post, and I did write, what I have considered a regular customer feedback. I understand that some parts of it were written in a harsh manner, but so are IMDB commentaries, Amazon feedbacks etc. I have not offered opinion on other books, or other creative works by Mr. Ludwin. If anything, I have learned about the other books existence from this thread, and not from the initial ad, what could potentially give me better perspective of the series, and influence my purchase decision in a positive way.

I would like to add, Mr. Ludwin, that unlike in your response, I have not said "Zero practical knowledge" at all. I guess you misread my words about "close to zero mentions of Hollywood techniques in the ebook", but certainly its not the same. Also, I don`t remember whether or not I used the words "desperate attempt" - it appears as "desperate move" now, unless it was moderated later. If I did use the word "attempt", I apologize for it, cause it was not my intention. I would also note, that I did mention a positive thing about the scores, tried to be descriptive about it, and specifically mentioned that I have no interest in returning the book because of it. Additionally I did my best to answer fellow forum reader, which I felt has completely misread my post intention, taking the criticism to places I never suggested.

In conclusion, I just want to say that writing my honest opinion about a book, or any purchase, was just my understanding of the premise "musicians helping musicians" I read some years ago. I apologize if I did the opposite, or hurt anyone in the process. I have not stated its a review, or has any special value, so as far as I am concerned, it could be deleted from the forum, without any objection from my side.

Vlad Zakrevsky.


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