# Looking to better my piano chops - need some advice, por favor



## RiffWraith (Sep 6, 2014)

So, my guitar chops are top-notch. *Dead* top notch... sorry - they just are.  

My piano/kbd chops, eh, not so much. I can play a few block chords (ick), and only in the keys of Am Dm, and Em :lol: 

I don't write much that starts with piano; sometimes a simple melody, yes, but more complex melodies with a chord structure behind it, no. I do this on guitar - and it works well. But I am finding that this is somewhat limiting. This became very clear to me as I went and deconstructed a couple of pieces of music the past few days. "Dogs Of War" by Christopher Lennertz was one. After I broke it down to a basic piano melody and chord structure, I am looking at it saying, "there is no way I would ever be able to write that on guitar." Something in that vein, but different, yes - but not _that_. I said, "I could definitely write that on the piano... but no I can't, b/c I don't really know how to play". But I _could_ if I knew how how to play.

I understand that being able to play the piano is not the be all end all of writing good orchestral music, but I am starting to see how it can really help. The piano is more linear than the guitar (if that makes sense) and seems to have less of a limitation when it comes to playing melodies over chords; you can just do more b/c you have more fingers at your disposal to play more notes simul. 

So, I am looking to better my piano skills - I'm-not really looking to learn to be the best player I can possibly be, but instead to improve to the point where I can compose better. Understandably, technique is important, but I really don't think I am in need of someone telling me that my posture needs work, that I need to hold my hands and wrists this way, and my elbows that way... it's not as if I am going to be practicing for hours on end each day, where improper technique may cause injury. I am also not looking to expand my repertoire to romantic sonatas, and Beethoven this, and Tchaikovsky that; it's not like I am striving to be this great classical musician who will one day play CH. I just want to learn, umm, stuff to help my composing skills. I guess what I am looking for is to learn how to play chord progressions and different chord inversions (so that I can start forming my own), and to be able to play chords with the l hand, and a counter melody with the right. At least, that is my mode of thinking as of right now.

So, I was hoping some of you had some ideas here... do I want to start taking lessons with a teacher? I am afraid that even if I explain myself properly (hopefully I have done that here), the teacher is not going to "get it" and he/she will start teaching me stuff I really don't need. I was thinking that maybe there are some online courses I can take, but wouldn't even know where to start looking. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance.


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## jc5 (Sep 6, 2014)

It sounds to me that you would want to look into some basic excercises - playing scales, arpeggios, triads and chords. The goal in these types of excercises would be to learn how to move your fingers on the keyboard - for example the purpose of learning to play a scale properly is not in this case to know the number of sharps and flats in that scale but rather to learn the finger patterns to get up and down the keyboard with greatest facility. This becomes even more useful once you move to arpeggios and chords.

To be honest though I believe the greatest advantage of piano when it comes to composing is not the physical act of playing the instrument (unless you want to write for piano) but the constant practice in practical score reading - two staves and and fully polyphonic, apart from considerations of idiomatic writing for each instrument, a dense piano piece looks just like an orchestral reduction.

Another thing to consider is frame of mind - I found it interesting that when describing your present piano skills you mentioned the chord names you can play - that is very 'guitar'. :wink: For example, the only times I even considered chord names is when I was studying harmony, to a pianist for the sake of playing it is far less relavent - after the basic key signature chromaticisms will abound except in the simplest of pieces.

It is also worth bearing in mind that both the guitar and the piano are some of the most idiosyncratic instruments, once has to know them well to write effectively for them - there is a great deal of pretty drab piano writing out there in the world today.


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## JPignatoMusic (Sep 6, 2014)

Hi Jeff, I'm in the exact same situation. Guitar chops are great but piano chops are a dud. So what I did was visit some local thrift shops and bought tons of piano books, like EZ Versions of pop songs and film scores. I also found a book series of technical exercises called Schaum Finger Power. So I spend some time everyday playing those exercises and learning to play some actual music.


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## bbunker (Sep 6, 2014)

Same exactish situation. Just to throw this out there: I think you should just play piano music. Not because it's good for you, in a 'eat your vegetables' kind of way. Just...that's how people have learnt to play piano for the last few centuries, and you'll develop technique and expressiveness and knowledge as a composing keyboardist at the same time.

And imagine a "guitar player" who had never played Smoke on the Water, or Stairway to Heaven, or a Sor study, or some Chet Atkins, or a jazz standard. He or she had never played anything ever played on guitar before, but had just learned scales, arpeggios, and chords. Would that person be a 'good' guitar player? Would they come up with music on the guitar you would want to listen to?

It's hard to conceive of such a person, because it's hard to avoid the huge body of guitar playing as a guitarist. You wouldn't come up with exercises to learn three-finger claw picking, you'd just go play some Jerry Reed, right? Could you be a great guitar rock or jazz soloist without EVER playing somebody else's solo? Maybe. I don't know.

My point is: half of the reason to play the piano is because of the absolute, gobsmackingly huge amount of music written for it, available all over the place, and needing only a few years of practice time to dive into headfirst.

And...you want to learn piano to some degree because you want some of your compositions to sound like the compositions people have written on or for piano, right? Shortest distance to that point seems like a straight line right through all that music written for piano.

If it's a taste thing...well, there's some fantastic and modern pieces for beginners by Kabalevsky, Shostakovich, Bartok (RUN to go get Mikrokosmos!) and others.


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## gsilbers (Sep 6, 2014)

im in the same boat. when i try to get a piano teacher it turns out they want me to work on my hand posiion and learning basic classical piano pieaces with a music sheet.  
learning other songs works for kids and it did for me on guitar, learning the cool songs of the day. 
but now i dont have the time or want to learn that. 
i want to learn the "boring stuff". scales, chords and inversions. 
so im trying to practice learn and find more instructionals like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_20fKrDXGjI

that way i can learn what i know on guitar and more easily translate it to piano and viceversa so i switch between both instruments.


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## autopilot (Sep 7, 2014)

Interesting - the question is a bit "how do I learn to play keys to WRITE better" and I think that's a different question to the normal "how do I play better".

There's a difference (in my mind anyway) between pianistic writing and "guitaric" writing and perhaps paper and computer writing as well...

SO I think in addition to reading dots , you would also get a whole lot out of finding some fakebooks and cheating your way through a whole lot of tunes. (ones you know and ones you don't)

The harmonic technique you already have with guitar will apply to finding the spelling of the notes, and then allowing your fingers and brain to find your way around the instrument will open up the "pianistic" cliches that make pianistic music? 

Just a thought - I am interested in the opposite of wanting to get better at the guitaric end of my writing as well - 

And happy Fathers day all to the other Dads on here ...


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## Eric (Sep 7, 2014)

Hi Jeff,

I'd recommend taking a couple 1-off lessons with local gigging keyboardists. Maybe bring some chord charts to the lessons, some songs you already know well on guitar, to get their interpretation, their voicings.

Then, in your own time, jam along with some recordings of pianists / keyboardists you're interested in. Maybe Elton John, maybe Billy Joel, for classic rock / pop. If you want to take a stab at jazz, some artists who are iconic for their voicings include Herbie Hancock, Bill Evans, George Shearing, and McCoy Tyner.

As for coming up with your own original voicings, it sounds like you probably have the theory knowledge to be doing this already. Traditionally, in rock / pop you'll want to play root, 3rd, & 5th; in jazz, the 3rd & 7th. Recognize this, then move past it. Play any 2 or more notes from a scale, and it counts as a voicing. Cluster them like Thelonius Monk might, or spread them out as much as you desire. Scales, arpeggios, and chords are all the same thing. A C major chord might be manifested as a C major scale (root, 3rd, 5th, major 7th, 9th, 11th & 13th), but could also be lydian (sharp 4th). A C7 chord could be mixolydian, or lydian dominant, or half-whole diminished, or altered dominant, or even whole tone scale. Play around, find sounds you like. If you're so low on the keyboard that things are getting muddy, then widen your intervals in that range, or move them up. Go up from there, and leave room for melody up top - then try breaking that premise and try voicing your chords above your melodies.

Voicings with major 2nds, and minor & major 3rds, will sound more traditional. Minor 2nd, as well as 4ths & 5ths, may sound more modern to your ears. Again, concepts you're likely already aware of on guitar.

Experiment away, and have fun!


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## AC986 (Sep 7, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Sat Sep 06 said:


> So, my guitar chops are top-notch. *Dead* top notch... sorry - they just are.
> 
> My piano/kbd chops, eh, not so much. I can play a few block chords (ick), and only in the keys of Am Dm, and Em :lol:



I found myself in Lyme Regis yesterday photographing* Guitars On The Beach*, which was a world record breaking attempt of God knows how many guitarists playing Smoke on the Water in unison, with Ian Gillan of Deep Purple on stage singing it, (obviously).

Prior to his appearance, other guitar players and bands on stage, warmed these 3000 odd guitarists on the beach up with exercises such as, *LET'S ALL PLAY SOME CHORDS*.

The chords were then usually A, D and E. I turned to a guitarist eventually who was strumming away and said 'F**k me, they really like to test you guys out with these chords don't they?'

You won't get very far doing that type of training on a piano.

I recommend the NSKP. :lol: 

Incidentally, We couldn't park the car at first for love or money, until 4 Yanks gave us their space AND their parking ticket as they were leaving early. I was profoundly grateful and asked them (2 couples) where they were from. They said New York City.

I said 'Oh how very interesting. Do you know Larry?'


They said no.


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## RiffWraith (Sep 7, 2014)

Hey - thanks a lot guys!



jc5 @ Sun Sep 07 said:


> It sounds to me that you would want to look into some basic excercises - playing scales, arpeggios, triads and chords. The goal in these types of excercises would be to learn how to move your fingers on the keyboard - for example the purpose of learning to play a scale properly is not in this case to know the number of sharps and flats in that scale but rather to learn the finger patterns to get up and down the keyboard with greatest facility.



That sums it up pretty well. Interesting you mentioned the score reading - I do that as well, but I find that helps more with orchestration then it does actual composing.



JPignatoMusic @ Sun Sep 07 said:


> So what I did was visit some local thrift shops and bought tons of piano books, like EZ Versions of pop songs and film scores. I also found a book series of technical exercises called Schaum Finger Power. So I spend some time everyday playing those exercises and learning to play some actual music.



Not a bad idea... must look into that.



gsilbers @ Sun Sep 07 said:


> when i try to get a piano teacher it turns out they want me to work on my hand posiion and learning basic classical piano pieaces with a music sheet.



Yeah - kinda what I am afraid of...



autopilot @ Sun Sep 07 said:


> Interesting - the question is a bit "how do I learn to play keys to WRITE better" and I think that's a different question to the normal "how do I play better".



Pretty much - yes.



autopilot @ Sun Sep 07 said:


> The harmonic technique you already have with guitar will apply to finding the spelling of the notes, and then allowing your fingers and brain to find your way around the instrument will open up the "pianistic" cliches that make pianistic music?



That's what I am hopeful for... I think...

Cheers.


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## wst3 (Sep 7, 2014)

putting on my teacher hat for a moment...

I do understand where you are, and in fact I'm in roughly the same spot, except all my chops still need polishing<G>!

Anyway, my concern is your comment that a teacher might teach you things you don't need... there really is no such thing.

You need to develop all sorts of skills, not the least of which are:
- dexterity
- independence
- your ear, and especially the connection between your brain, your ear, and your fingers.

There are an infinite number of approaches, and if you find a good teacher, and follow their approach, you will get there. For the most part, no matter which approach you take, you will arrive at about the same time.

There are no short cuts to proficiency - and I suspect that you already know that, since your guitar chops are up to speed, and you know what it took to get there.

The alternative, which I would strongly discourage, is to find a teacher that will teach you only the skills you seek. It will take less time, but it won't really serve you, because once you get there you will find that there are other things you need to learn<G>! Music is a nasty mistress like that - you are never completely satisfied!

aside - I have a friend who has reached the point where he can play anything and everything that he hears in his head. I asked him if that was disappointing, and he said no, because it freed his mind to go in new directions.

That's my goal - to be able to express, on guitar, piano, or virtual orchestra - everything I hear in my mind. Even if I never get there it will be a fun trip.


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## AC986 (Sep 7, 2014)

gsilbers @ Sat Sep 06 said:


> im in the same boat. when i try to get a piano teacher it turns out they want me to work on my hand posiion and learning basic classical piano pieaces with a music sheet.



That's nothing. I had 12 lessons on just how to open the lid.


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 7, 2014)

You could learn a lot about piano-playing by learning some Beatles tunes. You will learn basic I-IV-V voicings, some blues, and lots of other kinds of interesting progressions.

"Hey Jude", "Let It Be" and "In My Life" are some beautiful tunes on piano.


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## AC986 (Sep 7, 2014)

I agree with that about The Beatles, especially for tracks that have piano (and that's quite few).

One's that really helps technique while at the same having some fun, could also be Martha My Dear and Lady Madonna. 

Lady Madonna springs from McCartney's dad, who played rolling left hand barrel type piano which is where PM got it from. Very useful to get that left hand going.

Martha gets the left hand working and also helps in the same with syncopation of both hands.


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## Farkle (Sep 7, 2014)

It sounds like you want to learn to play what I call "composer piano", which is, good enough to be able to see/hear the spacings/voicings on the piano, and have that translate to arranging.

I stumbled across this great book called "the Pop Piano Book" by Mark Harrison (scribed and amazon link below)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/136586509/The-Pop-Piano-Book

http://www.amazon.com/The-Piano-Book-Ma ... 0793598788

It's a great book for people who are cinematic composers who want to get enough piano chops to see/hear inversions and progressions with inversions. This book actually has a LOT of music theory in it, so it translates to a composer very well.

If you like this book, you can then get deeper into theory with Mark Harrison's three volume series, Contemporary Music Theory.

But, I think if you go through the Pop Piano book and do the lessons, you'll quickly gain "composer's piano chops", and can write on the piano as a composer.

Hope this helps!

Mike


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## reddognoyz (Sep 7, 2014)

I am yet another guitar player who has struggled with keyboards, and struggled with them for an LONG time! I never even considered the piano anything more than an input device until recently when I got one in my home. Spent a little time when I'm not working on scoring something just looking at some YouTube videos of piano playing styles that I was interested in, and discovered that I really should know more about the kind of voicings that you can create with 10 fingers as opposed to the four you have available on guitar. I do my writing in my DAW, so I've learned to break things down and slow things down when necessary so that I can input the notes. i'm pretty facile at writing melodies on the keyboard, sometimes I think my melodies come out better than someone who is a good piano player because I think they are more idiomatic to the instrument I'm writing for rather than sounding like piano style lines, but that's no excuse to not learn how to play piano properly. I did order that pop book mentioned here and I'm going to give that a try.


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## AC986 (Sep 7, 2014)

Jeffrey why don't you stick up some of your best piano playing unedited on SC and lets hear where you're currently at.


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## RiffWraith (Sep 7, 2014)

Thanks for the Beatles suggestions - not at all a bad idea. And I like the Beatles too! 8) 



Farkle @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> It sounds like you want to learn to play what I call "composer piano", which is, good enough to be able to see/hear the spacings/voicings on the piano, and have that translate to arranging.



Another good way to describe it. Gonna check out that book - thanks!


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## RiffWraith (Sep 7, 2014)

adriancook @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> Jeffrey why don't you stick up some of your best piano playing unedited on SC and lets hear where you're currently at.



Yeah - that'll happen.


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## AC986 (Sep 8, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Sun Sep 07 said:


> adriancook @ Mon Sep 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Jeffrey why don't you stick up some of your best piano playing unedited on SC and lets hear where you're currently at.
> ...



That's basically useless then Jeffrey. No idea of where you are and anyone including myself that's offered any playing pieces, including The Beatles, in this thread have now become totally redundant.

What's the friggin point of asking for advice on how to improve your piano 'chops' if no one has any idea if you can play anything at all. This is typical of you Jeffrey!

In fact Jeffrey, if you don't put up your best playing on SC RIGHT NOW, I'm never giving any further feedback to anyone on MC, posting any music, or any further advice on anything ever again!!!!

Do you wish to be responsible for that Jeffrey?


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## G.E. (Sep 8, 2014)

I don't actually know how much you can play, but I swear by this course: http://www.learnandmaster.com/piano/
I'm no virtuoso, but it got me the skills I needed to play almost anything. In fact, I was so pleased by it that now that I'm finally picking up guitar, I'm also getting their guitar course.


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## AC986 (Sep 8, 2014)

G.E. @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> In fact, I was so pleased by it that now that I'm finally picking up guitar, I'm also getting their guitar course.




You should talk to Jeffrey about guitar playing because Jeffrey is a guitar Rock God Legend.


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