# Strings and Our Market



## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 7, 2009)

A note to devs: 
Why are some of you jumping in with string announcements (some time in the future) at the same time as LASS is order-ready (I know, I know, only as of noon LA time)? I mean, it's not like the community is SO big. The pie is tiny, so why not stagger the announcements over a few months? Sure, I understand that capitalism isn't 'nice' but man, like I said, it's a small community and there's room for more... respect. To be honest, it just feels embarassingly crass, a bit like sh*ting on your colleagues in public.


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## midphase (Jul 7, 2009)

Yeah..well....capitalism is based on shitting all over your fellow competitors...just ask Richard!

The other guys know very well that there is a limited amount of $$$ in most people's "string fund" so they're trying to put in as much doubt as possible so as to buy themselves some time. If I know that EW strings are coming out in a few months, I might decide to hold off on purchasing LASS until at least hearing the EW stuff. In addition, Andrew has raised quite a bit of buzz with his library, so the other guys are piggybacking a bit on the buzz since everyone is obviously excited about strings.

I think it's all par for the course, and I'm sure Andrew knew about it and he's ok with it. I remember this type of thing happening many times in the past.

The best advantage of LASS is that it's here now (well, in a couple of weeks) vs. the other guys. So if one needs kick ass strings right now, the choice is obvious regardless of what else gets announced.


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## Hannes_F (Jul 7, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Jul 07 said:


> A note to devs:
> Why are some of you jumping in with string announcements (some time in the future) at the same time as LASS is order-ready (I know, I know, only as of noon LA time)? I mean, it's not like the community is SO big. The pie is tiny, so why not stagger the announcements over a few months? Sure, I understand that capitalism isn't 'nice' but man, like I said, it's a small community and there's room for more... respect. To be honest, it just feels embarassingly crass, a bit like sh*ting on your colleagues in public.



Ned, I think user the comments about how badly better string libraries are needed were cumulating at some time and so different developers decided to target that demand and started at about the same time. Alex had a thread in this forum even before LASS had been announced where he asked what composers wished for a strings library. The rumours about EW recording a new string library are also around for quite a time.

The difference is that Andrew did the first official announcement and also is the first one to cross the line. I think it is understandeable that the other developers come out of the hiding now. It is not that they would just have started their project last week, they just held off their first announcements, at least this is how it looks to me.

It would require a very firm stand to have something up one's sleeve and not announce it in this situation.


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## choc0thrax (Jul 7, 2009)

This is all good for us, competition can lower prices. 

Mid, While the Shawn Murphy string lib may be a million years away there's still the Alex lib due out only a few weeks behind LASS. I bet anyone on a budget will at least hold off on buying LASS until there's some demos for this other new library.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 7, 2009)

The Shawn Murphy string library?!

That's like calling Michael Jackson Bruce Swedien.


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## synthetic (Jul 7, 2009)

That's the #1 selling point for me, Shawn Murphy. However, so far they've just announced the Dream Team. None of them have shown up for practice yet, let alone played any games. 

But yeah, the timing of the announcement seems to be aimed at torpedoing the LASS launch. I guess because Nick rhymes with...


What? I was gonna say "quick."


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## choc0thrax (Jul 7, 2009)

synthetic @ Tue Jul 07 said:


> That's the #1 selling point for me, Shawn Murphy.



Exactly.


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## Simon Ravn (Jul 7, 2009)

Well, you know - it could all be a coincidence... At least, three big string libraries arriving inside a time frame no longer than a year (let's assume EW comes out within the next year) is quite spectacular in the sampling world. I don't know if it's a good thing for the three developers or not - probably not. They might have made more money if the libraries were one year apart but that's not how it is now. Regarding the Shawn Murphy argument, I don't get that one. In my book, Shawn Murphy has done a lot of Hollywood recordings but a lot of them are far from stellar and ridden with noise and a lack of clarity in the sound. Listen to Presumed Innocent... listen to the new Star Wars scores, and the worst of them: Listen to A.I. which is a great score from John Williams but a terrible one engineering-wise compared to most other modern recordings. I would have preferred a Simon Rhodes recording from a Shawn Murphy one.

Regardless, if EW deliver the goods - Shawn Murphy or not - I am game. As am I with Alex' + Andrew's offerings. If the price iò6   §Ôd6   §Ôe6   §Ôf6   §Ôg6   §Ôh6   §Ôi6   §Ôj6   §Ôk6   §Ôl6   §Ôm6   §Ôn6   §Ôo6   §Ôp6   §Ôq6   §Ôr6   §Ôs7   §Ôt7   §Ôu7   §Ôv7   §Ôw7   §Ôx7   §Ôy7   §Ôz7   §Ô{7   §Ô|7   §Ô}7   §Ô~7   §Ô7   §Ô€7   §Ô7   §Ô‚7   §Ôƒ


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## Simon Ravn (Jul 7, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Tue Jul 07 said:


> Simon Ravn @ Tue Jul 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I would have preferred a Simon Rhodes recording from a Shawn Murphy one.
> ...



Good idea 8)


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## synthetic (Jul 7, 2009)

I was telling a friend about the EW library last night. He owns a bunch of EWQLSO and he hates mixing, so he was excited about this. "Is it recorded in the same hall so they mix together easily?" 

"Um, no. It's recorded in their new studio, which used to be Cello, United Western..."

"Well, what's the point then?"

Interesting perspective. I wonder if they'll make an effort to fit the sound of the QLSO library, or if they'll re-record the rest of the orchestra his way. 

As for the timing being a coincidence, EW chose to announce the library months before it's ready, not around any tradeshow, during the slowest selling season of the year for MI (summer). I don't see any reason for the timing besides asking potential Audiobro customers to hold their money. Which is legal, but kinda sucky.


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## Mark Belbin (Jul 7, 2009)

"Which is legal, but kinda sucky."

Jeff, our recent e-mail conversation notwithstanding, sometimes I wonder if you're begging me to take pot-shots at you. :wink: 

All-in-all, I don't think any of this is a big deal. Every announcement and ad draws traffic through a dev's channels. Lack of announcements does not. Hype now, release later - that's two announcements, and twice the traffic. We've been hearing about LASS for a while now, and I see the EW thing as no different.

I hate to even mention it, but expectancy over AI has had all you guys cheering and/or jeering for years. Like it or lump it, there's not a soul among you that doesn't know about the product. Everyone knows, and among those who know, them what'll buy it will buy it. Mission Accomplished. 

Even if EW has any kind of "less-than-friendly-competition" oriented motives for their timing, all one can or should really chalk this up to is advertising strategy. Nothing personal, I'm sure.

Belbin


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## synthetic (Jul 7, 2009)

Bring it, Canada boy.


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## lux (Jul 7, 2009)

uhhh, i never disagreed so much with a post from you Ned... :shock: 

despite what has been said enough by all others about benefits for the customer it sounds a bit weird considering how low profile can be (and it is) competition among composers sharing that same pie. And i dont see big dramas about that here nor posts about how polite would be sharing some of your good work in a similar small waterpool. Its market , baby, its just the way it is and its ok.

despite the fact i understand the sincere feeling, this place is starting to look like NS. This is EXACTLY the time other devs need to reveal what they have cookin on. What are we talking about :?:


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## synthetic (Jul 7, 2009)

Lux has a point, if the situation was reversed then the reaction would be different. 

Eh, what's the drama. We're all going to buy all three libraries anyway.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 7, 2009)

lux @ 7/7/2009 said:


> uhhh, i never disagreed so much with a post from you Ned... :shock:



Well, if you never disagreed with me, I would think something was wrong with you! :D 

Maybe you missed the part in my post when I suggested that the announcements could have been staggered (or delayed if you like). I'm not saying in any way that there should not be competition! I'm just pointing out that it's not so cool, IMO, to announce competing libraries *just around the time of a launch*. It's like if 2 of us knew that you were going to put out a cd of music for violin, electric cello and electronic drums on the 8th of July, and we announced a few days before that we were each going to put out cds for violin, electric cello and electronic drums in the near future. 

Now, you're going to tell me that this happens all the time in the music (and film) biz. Sure, but it's a MUCH bigger market. The market for string libraries of this type (high end) is extremely tiny. The least that devs can do is allow the light to shine on one of their colleagues for a few weeks before doing what they can to get our eyeballs (and wallets).

Capitalism at any cost, my friend? Even if it means small, first-time companies have no chance at surviving?

Again, for me: competition is great! But so is showing a little respect for other devs in what is, after all, a tiny community.

Here in Quebec we have a saying: donner une chance au coureur. It means, to give someone a chance to have a go at something.



> despite the fact i understand the sincere feeling, this place is starting to look like NS. This is EXACTLY the time other devs need to reveal what they have cookin on. What are we talking about :?:



Well the NS name-dropping is just to get the pot cooking, to turn on the heat? C'mon, you know we're kilometres away from that.


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## lux (Jul 7, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Jul 07 said:


> lux @ 7/7/2009 said:
> 
> 
> > uhhh, i never disagreed so much with a post from you Ned... :shock:
> ...



yup, i'm scared :mrgreen: 

well, i still disagree about market dimensions and stuff and still consider that you are doing a one way thought. But of course its no big deal, we're just discussing after all.

Well the NS thing is not much to raise the heat, its just that i consider a bit unfair for other guys developing stuff whose efforts and hopes are high as anybody else. 

If announcing a product was a reason to freeze the market we would live in a kinda nightmerish world, wont we?

btw, i agree with what Simon says, for what i know abbout Andrew i think he's very fine with it and fully understands the market he's part of. 

Luca


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## choc0thrax (Jul 7, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Jul 07 said:


> Here in Quebec we have a saying: donner une chance au coureur. It means, to give someone a chance to have a go at something.



Here in Quebec you order a hamburger in english and you get an extra topping of phlegm. Nice peoples.


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## kid-surf (Jul 7, 2009)

I may get a rock or two thrown my way for saying this, but...it's my opinion:

EW string offerings to date (for me) sound like a trailer for say, Transformers, whereas LASS sounds like an actual movie.

That's not necessarily a slam...just an observation.

So, if they (EW) go for the same (glossy/four quadrant trailer) sound they've always gone for, I see the markets for each (LASS vs. EW) as totally different.

BTW -- One thing I think that's great about LASS is that one can also make their sound SMALL (aside from mind crushingly huge). After all, who here is scoring EPIC movies? 

Even if EW is playing hardball marketing, I can't imagine it effecting the sales of LASS - LASS clearly kicks major ass.


For the first time...strings that sound like a movie and not a trailer.


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## PolarBear (Jul 7, 2009)

So what are we here now? A community for developers or for users?

Get a touch of reality please. Business is tough and usually not very fair. This doesn't mean I personally like what happened recently but my decision would be that I'd buy LASS or CS or both before EW if I were to make decisions based on that. Let's not forget hyping a product like LASS the way it was done isn't exactly fair to other advertisers on the website either.

Yet in the end one thing counts for me: Is it the sound I'm after and when do I need it? The feature sets are quite different for the soon to come and the other is not even having a prospected release date sticker... So... waiting won't do it for most!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 7, 2009)

Hey Jeff, I wasn't saying it's bad to have Shawn Murphy record the library. My point is that the recording quality is only 8% of what makes a library great.

Developers have to get that 8% right, just like everything else! But it's nowhere near the top of the list. The overall concept, performances, and programming come *way* before the engineering. WAY before that.


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## choc0thrax (Jul 7, 2009)

In the end these things are still just a crapshoot. You could line up tons of talented people to make a lib and doesn't mean it'll be any better than one lone dude making a lib himself.


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## synthetic (Jul 7, 2009)

I think we're in agreement here.  Like I said, the Dream Team hasn't even shown up for practice yet.


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## nikolas (Jul 7, 2009)

I somehow feel that the "Murphy library" (cutting it shorter than already mentioned here) will be in the same style of other EW libraries, otherwise exactly "what's the point?"

Now put that into perspective with the extremely aggressive marketing strategies by EW and you get the current situation. I remember when I was doing the CGEmpire competitions, and at some point EW DID sponsor one (15th? 16th?) they also announced their own competition at the same time. I mean: LOL! 

It's not that the reverse situation would yield different results, it's that it wouldn't be the reverse situation B&W! Because EW has a history of continuous sales, BOGOF, extended offers, even group buys (once), and this shows their aggrevated marketing policies! Andrew has never shown any of this. A demo here and there, some announcements over here first and then elsewhere...

Now... If one was to be bothered by this, this is a whole different issue and a rather personal one. Let's not forget that the more libraries are out there, the more choices, the more colours, that EW indeed is asking for their loyal customers to hold and that apart from the dream team and some not-so-hard-info there's nothing else about the upcoming library.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 8, 2009)

FTR and for the sake of clarity, I did use the plural 'devs' (it's not just EW).


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## Andreas Moisa (Jul 8, 2009)

What, there's going to be a Spider Murphy Gang String Library????



...sorry, only funny for Germans...but what the heck.


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## bluejay (Jul 8, 2009)

To play devil's advocate for a second, how would people have felt if the "other hypothetical developers" waited until 4-6 weeks after LASS was released to announce their own libraries?

Wouldn't it feel like consumer choice had been artificially limited in some way? Most of us would end up buying LASS and then wanting the new libraries as well.

Still I ordered my copy of LASS and it definitely seems like what I've been looking for.


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## Hans Adamson (Jul 8, 2009)

All of these libs have been in the works (or "planned") for a long time, and I don't think it is wrong to announce them at this point. I have seen a lot worse from other sample developers (no name) where a product is announced years in advance to control sales. 

And BTW, Art Vista announced an upcoming bass multisample lib and loop library at NAMM... The planned release is at the 2010 NAMM Show:
http://www.artvista.net/PR_ArtVista_GrooveMaster_Tony_Newton.htm (http://www.artvista.net/PR_ArtVista_Gro ... Newton.htm)
8)


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## Waywyn (Jul 8, 2009)

I think this just happened as it happens everytime ... but this time it seems a bit more obvious since we all wait for strings etc.

I mean look at Tonehammer releasing the Waterphone, then there was this other Waterphone library. Look at the tons of guitar and percussion libs being released back then. It happens all the time.

On the other side and hand on the heart. If you guys run your bizz, do you catch yourself saying: "Ohhh, composer buddy xxx also applied for that movie ... oh ... heheh, yeh, sure ... go ahead and grab those 50k. I think I will find another one ... uhm ... sooner or later"


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 8, 2009)

Alex,

I think you don't really understand what I'm saying! :lol: 

I *don't* think the markets are the same. The market for these kinds of high-end libraries is very small. So if the devs start playing just as hard as in the bigger markets (selling shoes, hot-dogs and cars), well, there will only be room for one or two devs making deep orchestral stuff. Oh sure, there will be hundreds of devs making 50-200$ libraries, but the bigger ones?...

Anyhow, I'll let it go. I think I'm too idealisitc, and the last thing I want is for people here to think that I'm against competition. I guess I just wished for more courtesy/consideration in a context where there is no room for that.


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## lux (Jul 8, 2009)

Ned are you suggesting that:

1) the market is very very small (really? hmm)

2) one developer should appear on the market at a time. Which time? months? years? and...why? so he can grab the entirety of the market leaving competitors out and limiting the offer to customer to a very limited range of choices?

3)...WHO's the lucky guy? who announce first? who announce first and give a demo? who's a friend of forum owner? whos just more empathic with you or me? who?

I think the entirety of your point, as stated few times in this thread, is probably...how to say...."unfocused"? I'm telling you without any flame intention but really i know how smart you are and i'm a bit surprised you still havent read again your post and reconsidered it.


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## PolarBear (Jul 8, 2009)

If the business is so darn retarded you're not bound to take part in it as a developer. As simple as that, Ned.

Actually it would tell a lot about your intellegince if you took part in it knowing it better. And it's not like the new libs will not leave holes other devs will not try to fill out agian somewhen.


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## nikolas (Jul 8, 2009)

If you think about it, people and companies entering the orchestral world, seem to also dissappear. Synful, AI, Tim (Westgate), wivi (maybe, although Arne was on Musikmesse and he's developed a few things), etc are all not 'present'. Someone buying a full orchestral library, has little use for solo instruments, etc, etc... And the smaller studios cannot risk recording a huge orchestra, at such huge expenses when are battling at uneven terms...

Ned is speaking in comparison terms: It's impossible to compair the thousands of boxes sold by sample developers to the millions sold by shoe makers! Prices are also different, but it does remain a fact that Nike can use Jordan to advertise, whereas a sampling company has 0 telle time!


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## JohnG (Jul 8, 2009)

Hi Ned,

While I can understand your feelings on this, I'd echo the sentiment that these other libraries have been in the works a long time and it's understandable to me that the developers would want to let their customers know about them. 

I think LASS sounds great and have ordered it. 

In addition, I most likely will order any library Nick Phoenix creates, because I think they're very usable and natural-sounding, with minimal fuss.

As a customer, I'm glad to know what's out there and I think it's understandable that other developers would at least want to let customers know what's coming.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 8, 2009)

lux @ 8/7/2009 said:


> Ned are you suggesting that:
> 
> 1) the market is very very small (really? hmm)



No, you're right. I'm sure that there are thousands of composers lining up to spend a grand on a string library.




> 2) one developer should appear on the market at a time. Which time? months? years? and...why? so he can grab the entirety of the market leaving competitors out and limiting the offer to customer to a very limited range of choices?



I was thinking that perhaps a month would be good, but you know, you're right - a year makes more sense. And yeah, you know me, I'm all for limiting the ranges of choices. That's why I also put down any new libraries or software except those made by my friends.




> 3)...WHO's the lucky guy? who announce first? who announce first and give a demo? who's a friend of forum owner? whos just more empathic with you or me? who?



Well as usual, it would be the one who paid me in money, wine or free software. It's not like I actually buy anything.



> I think the entirety of your point, as stated few times in this thread, is probably...how to say...."unfocused"? I'm telling you without any flame intention but really i know how smart you are and i'm a bit surprised you still havent read again your post and reconsidered it.



Well, it must be because I usually don't think enough before posting. I have so much business experience, it's not like I'm just a composer thinking out loud (and out of his *ss)


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 8, 2009)

PolarBear @ 8/7/2009 said:


> Actually it would tell a lot about your intellegince if you took part in it knowing it better.



Clearly, I was last in line when they were giving out brains. You can always be counted on to be such a sweetheart.


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## Waywyn (Jul 8, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Jul 08 said:


> Alex,
> 
> I think you don't really understand what I'm saying! :lol:
> 
> ...



Nono, I totally got ya ... but I also see where you coming from. Of course selling shoes or groceries is not really comparable to selling string libs 

... BUT if you actually check out all the companies which are potential string lib sellers, it is actually lots of companies:
EWQL, VSL, Peter Siedlaczek, Miroslav (MOTU), Steinberg, AndrewK, AlexW, Garritan, ProjectSAM, XSample guys, SYNFul ...

.. actually it is a lot of companies, plus I forgot a few for sure! 


Another thing is where I got some of my perspective from is the german game developer market and - actually - the german game composers market ... all in all there are just around 10-15 people making music for games ... and *cough* around 10 of those guys belong to one team ... so go figure : ... there are even more string lib developers than game music companies 0oD


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 8, 2009)

John, 

I'm trying to be subtle, but failing miserably! I was just suggesting leaving a bit of room schedule-wise. Of course the competitors should let their customers know what's coming - but why does it have to be a few days before the launch of a similar product? There was May, and there will be August...


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## PolarBear (Jul 8, 2009)

Alex, you forgot Sonic Implants (SoniVox). I can't believe it! :D And forgiveable: DVZ strings...

Edit: and yeah, Prosonus and AO are really outdated, absolutely right not to mention these


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## lux (Jul 8, 2009)

edit: naw i give up, nevermind


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 8, 2009)

Luca,

Do you need anyone, any individual to tell you how to be respectful? No, I don't think so. It's up to each developer. Devs read the forums. They have a fairly good idea of when a library is about to be released. Is it so impossible to give each a little time in the sun?


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## lux (Jul 8, 2009)

I read the forum as well. And i see no place for what are you talking about. 

I'm sorry but on this i just cant get the sense. I think it makes no sense keep discussing on it because were far from eachother miles away.


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## PolarBear (Jul 8, 2009)

You make it yourself a little too comfortable with a wagging forefinger to the general public, Ned. No advocate suit would get anywhere with this.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 8, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Jul 08 said:


> Luca,
> 
> Do you need anyone, any individual to tell you how to be respectful? No, I don't think so. It's up to each developer. Devs read the forums. They have a fairly good idea of when a library is about to be released. Is it so impossible to give each a little time in the sun?



I think the issue is complicated by the fact that Andrew is viewed as "one of our own" so we are perhaps a little protective of him here. 

If we remove that from the equation and speak of him as just another developer offering a great product into the marketplace:

If I were a developer working on a competing product, you bet that I would make an announcement that my product would be coming out at a future date as a way of saying, "If your budget is limited, you might want to wait a bit before you spend your money on a competitor's product until you see what mine brings to the table."

Unless I am missing something with my moral compass, Ned, I just don't see anything wrong with it.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 8, 2009)

Jay,

I guess that, aside from the Tonehammer and SampleLogic Waterphone releases, I hadn't seen many other examples of this kind of thing in our midst.

Anyhow, enough from me, I think. I have to get to work! :wink:


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## Jack Weaver (Jul 8, 2009)

It's just business. Plain and simple. 

Perhaps Andrew has about $50K less in his pocket today than he had projected prior to the news releases of these two other libs.

But business isn't about just one day's activities. It also doesn't mean that Andrew can't recoup that $50K or more over the long haul. 

All of these libraries will prove themselves over the long run. Are each of them individually worth all the hype and energy we put into them? 

How good any of them are (and probably how much they end up providing their manufacturers with income in the long run) depends on if we enjoy the results of continuing to point & click, tickle plastic keys and move controller sliders for the weeks, months and years to come. 

Won't it be cool when we have these 3 libs on our computers and get to play with them? I look forward to them. But I bet that one year from now that at least one of them will be orphaned on my system never to be used again. It happens a lot. 

.


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## Hannes_F (Jul 8, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Jul 08 said:


> Of course the competitors should let their customers know what's coming - but why does it have to be a few days before the launch of a similar product? There was May, and there will be August...



From their perspective it probably looks like this:

A - Have you read, this guy Thonex is coming out with a new strings library.
B - Hey, that is what we are doing. Why is he doing the same thing as us?
A - Dunno. Maybe we should announce ours too?
B - You know people will be killing us with questions if we announce before time. Have been there before. We better wait.
A - You are right. How much time do we have to announce our product?
B - According to what he said he will release in Q2/2009.
A - OK then, this means Q1/2010 in reality. Let's go back to work on our product, we will be done before him ...

...
Months later:
A - Damn, this Thonex guy will release almost on schedule!
B - And the first demos sound excellent. Maybe we underestimated this guy.
A - I guess we missed the chance for an earlier announcement.
B - And if people spend their money on his product they will not have anything left for ours.
A - Last call I would say. Hand me over our press text.


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## lux (Jul 8, 2009)

I'm starting to dig this apocalyptic vision of the market..."the last customers"...war scenarios and strategies...dramas...tears...enemies...

time for a script. Kid?

what about letting this thread have a glorious die? I feel it could affect the sincere entuhusiasm all composers are having for the fact we have three or four upcoming strings libraries, not to count whats cooking on other compartments. Its just plain exciting for everyone, developers included.

Really great days, lets not spoil the fun and better you guys start convincing me how i can blend 12 strings libraries on a same piece. 

Luca


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## nikolas (Jul 8, 2009)

You know...

A solution for LASS in this case would be to be ahead of scedule! I mean Andrew should post "LASS will be released on... August" and then go ahead and release it 1st of July or something! Take everyone by surprise, including competitors. Audience and potential customers would be blessed happy to finally get the opportunity to listen to more demos, etc, and certainly with the noise that was happening over LASS it wouldn't matter the loss of time!


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## midphase (Jul 8, 2009)

"If you think about it, people and companies entering the orchestral world, seem to also dissappear. Synful, AI, Tim (Westgate), wivi (maybe, although Arne was on Musikmesse and he's developed a few things), etc are all not 'present'. "

I think that quality products which don't price themselves out of the market survive and thrive. I think the above mentioned products were good, but (IMHO) not good enough.

Regarding the size of the market for orchestral libraries, I think world-wide it wouldn't be unheard of to expect sales in the 5000-20000, I would guess that QLSO Gold has sold that many copies. I would also guess that Symphobia has sold a few thousand.

The bottom line is this - if the business model didn't work, then you wouldn't have new guys getting into the market. Andrew is an established composer who (I'm sure) would much rather score a film than edit audio files, if he got involved in this, it's probably because the business model appealed to him (and he wanted kick ass strings).


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## midphase (Jul 8, 2009)

1000 sales at $1000/each is 1 MILLION DOLLARS (echo echo echo).


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## Ashermusic (Jul 8, 2009)

midphase @ Wed Jul 08 said:


> 1000 sales at $1000/each is 1 MILLION DOLLARS (echo echo echo).



Yes, but that is gross, not net.


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## synthetic (Jul 8, 2009)

nikolas @ Wed Jul 08 said:


> You know...
> 
> A solution for LASS in this case would be to be ahead of scedule! I mean Andrew should post "LASS will be released on... August" and then go ahead and release it 1st of July or something! Take everyone by surprise, including competitors. Audience and potential customers would be blessed happy to finally get the opportunity to listen to more demos, etc, and certainly with the noise that was happening over LASS it wouldn't matter the loss of time!



You think you're the first to think of that?  We all TRY to pad our schedule like that.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 8, 2009)

> Synful, AI, Tim (Westgate), wivi (maybe, although Arne was on Musikmesse and he's developed a few things), etc are all not 'present'. "
> 
> I think that quality products which don't price themselves out of the market survive and thrive. I think the above mentioned products were good, but (IMHO) not good enough.



I don't know the people at Westgate, but Synful is still around, WIVI is unsurpassed in certain ways, AI is still "this close"... in other words I wouldn't write any of these people off or say theyr'e not good enough yet.


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## choc0thrax (Jul 8, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jul 08 said:


> AI is still "this close"



close to what?


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## nikolas (Jul 8, 2009)

Close. Period! :D

Nick: That's why I said not "present" apart from anything else. It's been a long time since we heard any news from most of these companies (and I did mention that I met with Arne in musikmesse).


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 8, 2009)

I was really taking exception to what Kays said about these products being good but not good enough, not to what you said, fellow Niklas. The brass in WIVI is really great if you play a wind controller. Before WIVI the only instrument I ever played with my EWI was Yamaha VL1 - and that's going back 15 years.

Now, I wouldn't play a whole orchestra of it, but for a few parts there's nothing like it.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 9, 2009)

Ned, let's say there was a scoring job posted somewhere for a decent amount of money, and you happened to have great demos that fit the specifications perfectly.
However, you knew that four or five other good composers had also heard about the gig, and were planning to send in demos. Would you wait until theirs had been received and considered before you sent yours in, just to be gentlemanly about it?

It's bidness.Baby needs a new pair a' shoes.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 9, 2009)

Larry,

I already gave my view about this on the previous page:



Ned Bouhalassa @ 8/7/2009 said:


> Well, I keep thinking that there's a big difference between the tiny market for string libraries between 500 and 1500 bucks/euros vs the market for composers looking for film/tv/game/corporate/etc jobs, so you can't really compare the business practices. But maybe I'm wrong!


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## careyford (Jul 9, 2009)

If you're into figuring out what the timing means, the timing of the announcements can be interpreted as Andrew being on the right track. In that analysis, he's got one of the biggest players in the industry paying attention. Can we please avoid driving him away with our "product improvement" suggestions?

I'm going to vote with my credit card...


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## NYC Composer (Jul 10, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Jul 09 said:


> Larry,
> 
> I already gave my view about this on the previous page:
> 
> ...



Ned, sorry, I missed that post, but I still feel the same way.


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## re-peat (Jul 10, 2009)

nikolas @ Thu Jul 09 said:


> (...)It's been a long time since we heard any news from most of these companies (and I did mention that I met with Arne in musikmesse).



According to Mr. Lindeman, the developer, the next version of Synful is due in 3 or 4 months. It will include, among other things, a whole new arco string section.

_


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## synthetic (Jul 10, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jul 08 said:


> I was really taking exception to what Kays said about these products being good but not good enough, not to what you said, fellow Niklas. The brass in WIVI is really great if you play a wind controller. Before WIVI the only instrument I ever played with my EWI was Yamaha VL1 - and that's going back 15 years. Now, I wouldn't play a whole orchestra of it, but for a few parts there's nothing like it.



I don't know. I like the realism of WIVI, but the tone is flat and thin to me. I'm learning that fat tone is more important than realism. (Shut it Asher.  ) Or rather, it sounds more realistic soloed, but in a full mix the sample sounds more realistic than modeling.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 10, 2009)

synthetic @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jul 08 said:
> 
> 
> > I like the realism of WIVI, but the tone is flat and thin to me. I'm learning that fat tone is more important than realism. (Shut it Asher.  .



LOL!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 10, 2009)

I didn't write that!


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## nikolas (Jul 10, 2009)

re-peat @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> nikolas @ Thu Jul 09 said:
> 
> 
> > (...)It's been a long time since we heard any news from most of these companies (and I did mention that I met with Arne in musikmesse).
> ...


That's good to know!  I've been a fan of Synful (and I actually have heard your re-bob before as a demo for Synful I think (could be mistaken)).


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## kid-surf (Jul 10, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> I have a huge crush on kid-surf! I think he's really cute! And let's not forget that he's a world class surfer!



Fine, all true, but next time just PM me... you're embarrassing me. :oops:


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## nikolas (Jul 10, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> I think that Nikolas is the best composer in vi!


Well...

Thank you, indeed! :D


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## lux (Jul 10, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> I still value Gpo on top of all competitors. No matter the price.



suspected that.


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## Stevie (Jul 10, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> Free lifetime VI-magazine sbuscription for all VI-members!




Now that's generous Nick, thanks!  /\~O


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 10, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> Do you guys think Ned would mind if I asked him to add an extra letter to his initials? I'm so tired of people asking me for my autograph 'cause they think I'm him. :cry:



Hey Nick - just call me N.A.B. from now on.


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## nikolas (Jul 10, 2009)

Ned did you actually change the time of the quote? Talk about professionalism in editing.



Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> I think that N.A.B would be much better editor than me for VI magazine!


See? Even Nick thinks so!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 10, 2009)

Thans Niclas! Much apreciatted.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 10, 2009)

Kid Surf @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> By the way, I too have a crush on myself - a woman crush. I find myself so cute that it's impossible for me to look in the mirror without groping it.



Really, Kid, did you have to tell us that?


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## kid-surf (Jul 10, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> Kid Surf @ Fri Jul 10 said:
> 
> 
> > By the way, I too have a crush on myself - a woman crush. I find myself so cute that it's impossible for me to look in the mirror without groping it.
> ...



Quit editing what I say...



Kid Surf @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> By the way, I too have a crush on myself - a woman crush. I find myself so cute that it's impossible for me to look in the mirror without groping it. Especially when I'm wearing my cheetah print thong and bust out the old hula-hoop for some fancy hip action.



THAT is what I said...sheesh!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 10, 2009)

Bruno - ist dat you?!!


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## kid-surf (Jul 11, 2009)

dat be me...


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## wqaxsz (Jul 13, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Jul 07 said:


> A note to devs:
> Why are some of you jumping in with string announcements (some time in the future) at the same time as LASS is order-ready (I know, I know, only as of noon LA time)? I mean, it's not like the community is SO big. The pie is tiny, so why not stagger the announcements over a few months? Sure, I understand that capitalism isn't 'nice' but man, like I said, it's a small community and there's room for more... respect. To be honest, it just feels embarassingly crass, a bit like sh*ting on your colleagues in public.



Hi,

i agree.
so sudden and far from being ready.

Regards

Laurent


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