# I don't know how to use ensemble patches and it slows me down.



## Henu (Aug 21, 2020)

So, I just built my first ever pre-mixed (orchestral) template because I feel like my regular workflow - orchestrating and arranging everything separately with single sections and mixing in audio - is greatly slowing me down on projects which have a tight deadline, forcing me to work against the clock way too hard sometimes.

With this new template, I chose my go-to libraries per section, added a ton of ensemble patches to speed up my workflow and balanced, routed and pre-mixed everything using a full orchestral piece I mockupped earlier. Then I finally composed a new piece with a piano and a couple of ensemble patches and when most of the rough ideas were laid down I started to do a proper arrangement with excitement.

And then I failed miserably.

It took me five minutes to go from that "_I'll start with the ensembles right away_" into the "_I'm just going to play some cellos first after all_"- mode and an hour later I had arranged a way too complex string arrangement, realized that it doesn't sound anything I wanted it to sound like and started to add CSS ensemble on top of it only to realize that this probably isn't the way to do it. Frustratedly I tried to add some woodwinds ensemble on top of the strings, but then I started to think of "_putting that ostinato to oboes and clarinets and bassoon doubling the bass_".....and got frustrated again.

I'm basically trying to do stuff more close to production music while my mindset is in live orchestra (with also overorchestrating everything to hell and back like a true self-taught enthusiast) and I can't get rid of that mindset.

I'm obviously making this way too complicated for myself, and I'd ask for help from you peeps who have better knowledge on the subject. How in the living heck am I supposed to use the ensemble patches and get rid of that live thinking? In combination with single instrument sections? Stripping half of the lines away, "keeping it simple" all the time? Doubling them every now and then? Do I actually have to take a random "trailer music 101 course" in order to do this properly?

Sound- and instrumentation-wise I'm trying to achieve something like this:



or this:



...but end up sounding like this instead.



And I'm pretty goddamn sure the reason why the first excerpts sound like they sound must be the use of simplicity combined with a TON of ensemble patches. A huge mass of "stuff" which isn't even intended to be played live in it's current form.

I can't do "stuff" - so, pretty please, save me from myself and help me out telling how to properly use the ensemble patches in a way they are used in e.g. production music!


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## Mark Kouznetsov (Aug 21, 2020)

I know you're probably looking to hear from the pro's, but I wouldn't use ensemble patches if you want to hear clear melody/inner voices. It's simply not possible, because all of the lines are equal. If you insist on using ensemble patches only, they'd be okay for short chords or long clusters. Maybe, try recording with ensemble patch, delete/cut out melody (like a top line for example), paste it on a separate patch like legato for definition. That way you can control your melody/make it louder and more distinct, mix it however you want, double it with another instrument group. Or don't cut it out and just double it with another patch with melody only.
I would still divide high/low groups even if your ensemble comes with all in one.
But if you're trying to do production music, I think you can relax about realism and just use your ears. If it sounds good, it's good. It shouldn't be that different than a regular orchestration. Only with ensembles you have stacked pre-arranged groups. So, instead of using flutes, you're using High Woodwinds or something, or high woodwinds playing in octave.


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## tonaliszt (Aug 21, 2020)

A really good exercise I developed is to take a page of an orchestral score and break it down by how it would be mocked up. 

For example - the opening of Holst - Mars. 1. Strings col legno ens patch doubled with harp and timpani. 2. Winds and brass ensemble patch. That's literally 90% of the opening. 

You also learn what types of "good" orchestrations are easy. Ravel - pretty hard. Debussy - very doable.


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## Dave Connor (Aug 21, 2020)

Most people have a standard of production value that must be there when all is said and done. The use of ensemble patches is something you either get away with or don’t in a given context. If you _do _use them you usually have to find a way to filter out the tell tale signs as they can quickly impose an amateur sound and spoil other quality work in a piece.


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## Henu (Aug 22, 2020)

Thank you for all the advices- many of those individual ideas are really useful for trying out!! 

What I'm now thinking is that instead of trying to overcompose and overorchestrate every single section first, I should probably start with a "reduced score" to make the basic arrangements with the ensemble patches. After _that_, I can always take away some parts off to change them into single instruments or augment them with the single ones. 

I just need to get accustomed to the fact that there might be e.g. technically four viola divisis playing together on some parts but then again, I should know at this point that VI's are completely different ballpark and should be treated as such. Especially if I'm after a certain sound!

PS: @Mark_Kouznetsov , I'm definitely not looking answers from "pros" only- that would just goddamn stupid. :D


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## MartinH. (Aug 22, 2020)

Henu said:


> Do I actually have to take a random "trailer music 101 course" in order to do this properly?


I doubt there's anything in there that would help you, except for what you know already.



Henu said:


> And I'm pretty goddamn sure the reason why the first excerpts sound like they sound must be the use of simplicity combined with a TON of ensemble patches. A huge mass of "stuff" which isn't even intended to be played live in it's current form.
> 
> I can't do "stuff" - so, pretty please, save me from myself and help me out telling how to properly use the ensemble patches in a way they are used in e.g. production music!


I never could wrap my head around writing with ensemble patches either. I'm a self taught enthusiast too, and I don't have nearly the orchestration knowledge you have, and it still bothers me not to write for individual sections. But when I hear them used with tons of shit layered on top of each other and drowned in reverb, I don't mind hearing them. What always bothered me was writing melodies and hearing the jumps at the edges of where one section stops playing, so that e.g. some random low or high notes of a viola melody no longer get played by violas and switch to just cellos or violins. I wonder if the ensemble patch useres just know those edges very well and avoid them like the plague and only write in keys that fit those ranges.

Have you considered a middle-ground approach where you build your own octave doubling patches like high strings and low strings in Metropolis Ark 1? Maybe that would hurt your brain a little less when you start by setting up your favorite doublings as midi routing tracks and leave the option open to still access those sections as individual sections on other tracks or midi channels. 

When you start writing, do you start by composing melody lines or do you start by laying down some big block chords? I think I've seen a bunch of media composers on youtube start with chords, so that would already create a fairly dense foundation to hide the telltale signs of ensemble patches, maybe.


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## Henu (Aug 22, 2020)

With the piece I'm currently working on I wanted to go with chord- based approach first, using progressions reminding me a bit of Glenn Stafford's (Warcraft, Starcraft, HotS, etc) style. So I actually started with chords this time, using voice leading to give me vague ideas of how the melodies should develop. I use this technique sometimes if I have to come up with "something fast" because it gives me a really quick start to get ideas. After the initial basics I usually get ideas for individual lines, breaks, dynamics and instrumentation and I start to reduce the chords out of the draft.

The human brain works in a fun way that you can reduce almost any music as chords, because we tend to "fill the blanks" in our mind. A bit like the reduced score which was mentioned earlier. So in the end I may not have clear chord progressions "in your face" anymore in the final product, but they are still there in my own mind (and on paper). It's a fun way to try things out sometimes!


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## Land of Missing Parts (Aug 22, 2020)

Henu said:


> With the piece I'm currently working on I wanted to go with chord- based approach first, using progressions reminding me a bit of Glenn Stafford's (Warcraft, Starcraft, HotS, etc) style. So I actually started with chords this time, using voice leading to give me vague ideas of how the melodies should develop. I use this technique sometimes if I have to come up with "something fast" because it gives me a really quick start to get ideas. After the initial basics I usually get ideas for individual lines, breaks, dynamics and instrumentation and I start to reduce the chords out of the draft.
> 
> The human brain works in a fun way that you can reduce almost any music as chords, because we tend to "fill the blanks" in our mind. A bit like the reduced score which was mentioned earlier. So in the end I may not have clear chord progressions "in your face" anymore in the final product, but they are still there in my own mind (and on paper). It's a fun way to try things out sometimes!


If you want ensemble patches, but without the unison stacking problem, one thing you might try is the auto-divisi multiscript. You could use that to play in the parts you want that way, treat it like a thinner and more realistic ensemble patch for sketching purposes. (Disable legato if that's sounding weird.)

From there, when you are ready to finesse the parts, you can drag that midi region into your separate instruments and prune them down. If you want a more sophisticated and streamlined version of that, you could probably get Divisimate to route the lines directly to the individual instruments, which would save you the step of dragging them in and pruning them manually. (I have my own routing system in Logic that allows me to do something similar, though it's less elegant.)


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## brek (Aug 22, 2020)

The main ways I use ensemble patches:

Sketching - when I simply want a different sound than the piano when working out the two handed skeleton of the piece.

Accompaniment - melodic material is almost always given specifically to an instrument, but accompaniment figures sometimes are just slapped together with an ensemble patch - depending on the material. This usually works best with strings for me because of the consistent timbre. 

Woodwinds - Not always, but in some pieces , the winds will almost entirely be from Albion One (with the exception of a featured soloist). Like the previous use case, this is just to shave some time out of the process. 

One thing I almost never use are ensemble brass patches. Maybe for some low blasts or something like that, but I'm bothered enough as it is by the sound of an a6 horns patch playing chords.


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## Mornats (Aug 22, 2020)

This video helped me with writing with ensembles


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