# Is there a perfect way to start a new piece?



## SimonCharlesHanna (Dec 3, 2018)

Is there a perfect way to start a new piece?

I am curious about everyone's opinion/process on this.

My current technique is to slam my hands on the keyboard, cry, scream, pace, think I have some direction then abandon it 3 minutes into execution etc. Until I have some stitched together sketch track that I can then massage into something more coherent.

Do any of you work with a sort of routine that is reliable?
Just when I think I have a technique/process that works, Ill replicate it on my subsequent track for it to completely fail me.


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## Chr!s (Dec 3, 2018)

Most of the time, I hear some melody in my head, transcribe it, and then just go from there.


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## dzilizzi (Dec 3, 2018)

LOL! I was watching a video on that, may have been a Udemy class. He said his teacher said pick a note and start. An F# is a good one. 

I usually use chord track to find some chords that sound good together and go from there. I guess if you can play well, you can play. The nice thing about the chord track is it gives suggestions for the next chord, some are ones you probably wouldn't have thought of. Once I play it a few times a melody just comes for me.


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## Counterpointer (Dec 6, 2018)

Interesting thread. 

I usually open up a piano plugin and just improvise with the target emotion in mind. When I come up with something that suits the theme well enough I justs go with it. I have had troubles in the past in getting stuck with details right away, but now I'm forcing myself to move on as soon as I have something that is good enough. I have realized that It's a lot easier to compose if I have something to go from. The worst creativity killer is a blank project. So I improvise and make decisions quick. Things can always be altered and bettered later.


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## CGR (Dec 6, 2018)

Hmmm, for me it really depends on what I'm hoping to achieve. Sometimes sitting at the piano and letting my hands fall into 'shapes' on the keys. I try not to watch my hands in fear of analysing what I'm doing, and just try to really listen and keep it fresh.

Other times it's a recurring melody line in my head, and sometimes a bass line/groove in my head which sparks a composition (have done this numerous times - this track started with a bass groove in my head whilst showering one morning and when I got to the studio it came together very quickly):

http://www.motionfocusmusic.com/search/tracks/release/k_Finding-the-groove


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Dec 7, 2018)

Interesting responses so far though not many which is interesting. 

Improvisation leads me astray too often and I get sidetracked from my main goal. I have to trash my latest composition because of this ;(


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## CGR (Dec 7, 2018)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Interesting responses so far though not many which is interesting.(



Not sure what you mean here?


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## Saxer (Dec 7, 2018)

It's easy when there's already something... a movie to score, someone waiting for a demo, an idea in the head before sitting at the DAW, theory things to try...

Hardest thing is a new template... hey, now I could write everything! And nothing happens. Or three hours left until I have to leave. Hard to get into flow with self pressure instead of undertow to somewhere... if that makes sense.

But at the end, when a nice piece is done, there obviously was a perfect way to start.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Dec 7, 2018)

Saxer said:


> It's easy when there's already something... a movie to score, someone waiting for a demo, an idea in the head before sitting at the DAW, theory things to try...
> 
> Hardest thing is a new template... hey, now I could write everything! And nothing happens. Or three hours left until I have to leave. Hard to get into flow with self pressure instead of undertow to somewhere... if that makes sense.
> 
> But at the end, when a nice piece is done, there obviously was a perfect way to start.



my experience as well (allthough different at the same time because I am not saxer :D )

I see at also organically: 
- you cannot force something to appear, like a plant cannot produce a fantastic flower at command.

- and it's a lot of training, as apart from creating something unique (although that is a different thing then the op may ask) . Athletes or sports(wo)men as an example need to train a lot to be able to produce the right shot (f.e. tennis) at the right time. If you see yourself as doing a top sport, and in this case musicanship you need to train a lot before you may get something worthwile.

Thus for me mostly "it" happens in the right balance between wanting/desiring something to appear and not expecting anything at all. Mostly then I remain at the right attention to listen what I then play, and keeping a playful stance.


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## Kony (Dec 7, 2018)

CGR said:


> Not sure what you mean here?


I think he means he doesn't know half of you half as well as he should like; and he likes less than half of you half as well as you deserve


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## Illico (Dec 7, 2018)

Most of the time, I simply start improvisation on my keyboard.
But, for my next piece, first I will try to transcribe a Master piece I like, hoping some new ideas will emerged. Then 'i'll do my job.


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## Hywel (Dec 7, 2018)

Being a hobbyist I have no video work to inspire me but I am a photographer and can sometimes pull up an old picture from my archive and trying to let that take me somewhere.
I most often use a piano patch (currently L&S's Grand Piano) layered with a quiet pad to noodle at, but other things I have tried are...
1. just using a monophonic melody instrument to start off with and not worrying about chords and harmony until later
2. picking a sound at random from within the Kontakt universe and trying to create something with it - this technique I find best with bass instrument type sounds
3. picking a rhythm/drum groove and playing with it
4. finding a line of a lyric from anywhere and using it to create a melody line
5. I have sometimes used Cubase's chord pads but mainly I find I have no problems coming up with chords and chord changes once I have a melody
6. Sometimes a simple pad sound is inspiration enough to progress and add melody lines to - again I try to audition a few before starting that I might not have used previously
I suppose in summary... anything goes if it inspires you.


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## ka00 (Dec 7, 2018)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Interesting responses so far though not many which is interesting.



First, Simon, you have tons more experience and ability than me, so I kind of shouldn’t be posting but, I think it’s the criterion of the “perfect” way to start that has maybe limited the responses. Probably I would venture to guess that it implies a foolproof, super efficient way to create that works 100% of the time. But maybe that doesn’t exist in reality.

I think it’s a natural part of the process for me for things to sound bad at first and then get better.

Thom Yorke was interviewed about his process and I wrote down what he said, which was reassuring: “Most of my time is spent scratching away, scratching away, and nothing’s happening, and then finally, all of a sudden you have something. That’s the process.”

I remember a moment in photography class back in university, where the professor showed us a slideshow of raw unedited photos from the great Ansel Adams, to show us a chronological process of shooting one day that led to one of his masterpiece photos. The slide show we saw was mostly filled with crappy, subpar images that rightly never saw the light of day, but among all of them there was one really nice raw image that he picked to focus on and painstakingly make better through the special printing techniques he developed.

As for techniques I use:

One thing that really stuck with me from the Hans Zimmer MasterClass was his use of a Musical Diary. Basically improvising in the DAW, without much self censorship and using markers to denote interesting parts. I found that very useful for me personally.

I also record on my phone a lot of short melody improvs on the piano. Then I casually listen back to those over and over again, skipping the ones that are crap and replaying the ones that I’ve grown to like or find catchy or memorable. The yield is about 10% good stuff, and the rest is trash.

Another thing I do is improvise in the DAW with chords until I find something on later playback that I wasn’t expecting and that somehow resonates with me, and then I use that as an inspiring new starting point expand upon.

And the one other thing I do that is kind of embarrassing, is I’ll think about my favourite composers and pretend in my head that I’m hearing something new that I love from them that I’ve never heard before, and then I just imagine what that is and if it sounds halfway decent, I’ll go sketch it out.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 11, 2018)

I often like to start with textures, a pulse of some kind, then I move to bass, knowing that at this point, it’s more about nailing the timbre of the bass, not the final notes/pitches. Melody, if it’s a melodic cue, follows, whereby I noodle simple things on the keyboard, and try singing ideas to get a sense of phrasing. Once I’ve found something I like, I will either play some chords underneath with short strings or synths or keys, to get the harmony going. Next step is to revisit the bass, textures, etc. When I inevitably get stuck, instead of banging my head for hours, I leave the sketch until the next day, when I can have fresh ears.


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## wilifordmusic (Dec 11, 2018)

First, you have to know why you're writing the music.
Is it supporting action, or implying an emotion or playing against all of the above?
Is it suggesting another similar situation or is it totally new territory?
All these things will help to suggest to you the musical vocabulary.
And by vocabulary I mean, harmony, form, and orchestration.

Each of us has a different way of proceeding through this short list, but line 1 is the most important.

hope this helps, Steve


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Dec 11, 2018)

I don't know if I've found the perfect way to start a new piece, but I'm 100% positive I've already found many bad ways 

My best results so far happened when I started with a piano sketch, and composed FAST. When I focus on a single part during the composition process, it's almost always a disaster : At the best, I end up with 8 good bars, and absolutely no idea what to do before and after.


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## Atarion Music (Dec 11, 2018)

Hey, dropping in to say please contact me immediately when one is found, thank you. 

As of my current methods, I take it 8 bars at a time,yep just 8 at a time. Start with anything you want within those 8 bars. Whatever you FEEL for at the moment you pick an instrument to match it, a cowbell, taiko, piano, brass, synth. Whatever sound you may or may not have in your head at the moment. After-all, it's only 8 bars. Then add a second, third, fourth or as many layers you want to those 8 bars. In your mind. At this time, as far as you're to be concerned, your entire composition will only be 8 bars. 

Once satisfied, you add yet ANOTHER 8 bars and follow or not follow the path of your first 8 bars if that's whats needed. This is the time to change speed, chord progression, rhythm, introduce a new motif or motif's, ect. I find composing this way UNLESS it's imperative, takes away my will to copy/paste my first 8 bars thus restricts me from being repetitive in my movements and compositions. 

Oh! If you already have a melody, say it's 16 bars of melody, then my rule changes to 16 bars at a time. I think you get the drift by now. Afterwards, you can submit it to your Client for review. Then change bits and pieces from the feedback. If it's for personal use, then that gives you even more freedom! With music, the possibilities are endless, the thought of that alone should be inspiring!
Cheers


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## joebaggan (Dec 11, 2018)

whitewasteland said:


> I don't know if I've found the perfect way to start a new piece, but I'm 100% positive I've already found many bad ways
> 
> My best results so far happened when I started with a piano sketch, and composed FAST. When I focus on a single part during the composition process, it's almost always a disaster : At the best, I end up with 8 good bars, and absolutely no idea what to do before and after.



Yep, spending initial time on getting a loose sketch of the whole piece/structure rather than obsessing on one part means you know where you're going, and that's key for me. I've gotten stuck many times by trying to perfect one part or detail too soon.


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## GtrString (Dec 11, 2018)

The idea of "start" can be interesting. Inspiration, idea in head, use of composing apps/devices, brief, improvisation, transfer of ideas to daw, first note, melody or harmony, instrument preference ect.. where and when do you think a piece "starts"?


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## still_lives (Dec 11, 2018)

music is a language. a piece starts when you decide you have something to say.

if i just start banging out notes, muscle memory takes over and i'm back in the same rut, playing the same old bullshit as ever. muscle memory is great for technique, but not so good for trying to break new ground.

so i think the 'start' doesn't come from within. it's external. it's a burning itch from hell, a nagging feeling, a question, an observation, whatever; it's from outside, and it's trying to get into your brain.

when something about reality surprises me, and what is reality if not full of surprises... a spark ignites, myelination occurs, and that's when a song starts.

then it's just a matter of using my present understanding of the language to try to communicate that experience.

routine is the slow death of ingenuity.


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## whiskers (Dec 11, 2018)

Perfect? No. You do what works for you.


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## antonyb (Dec 12, 2018)

I asked my composition teacher something like "how do you start a new piece?".
(the notion of "perfect way" is really personal to you)

To be honest, it really depends on your background.
My "blockage" and why this question came up for me was the sheer amount of possibilities that I couldn't wrap my head around.
Plus the fact that I am software engineer and love to organize things didn't help my hangups.
I always thought I had to understand and start with "form" first.

My teacher's answer was: "start with a melody you like and let the music carry you"
That was it for me to let it go. Extremely freeing.

There is going to be good stuff and bad stuff but I just enjoy that process (and yes, my income doesn't depend on music production)

Great question, nice to see the various opinions, thanks!


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## whiskers (Dec 12, 2018)

antonyb said:


> I asked my composition teacher something like "how do you start a new piece?".
> (the notion of "perfect way" is really personal to you)
> 
> To be honest, it really depends on your background.
> ...



As a quick aside, could you expound on this 'composition teacher' you have? I recently starting taking piano lessons, but composition lessons (in person) would be even more ideal.


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## antonyb (Dec 12, 2018)

whiskers said:


> As a quick aside, could you expound on this 'composition teacher' you have? I recently starting taking piano lessons, but composition lessons (in person) would be even more ideal.


Not sure if you want a name or more of a process that's going on.
I'll talk about the latter. PM me if you want contact information.

Being a performer for 30+ years has been fine but I wanted to actually better understand what was going on in the music I was playing.
So this guy, a retired professional composer who made his money in TV, is taking on student one by one and is going through:
1- https://www.amazon.com/Harmony-Fifth-Walter-Piston/dp/0393954803/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1544640742&sr=1-1&keywords=piston+harmony (Piston's Harmony)
2- https://www.amazon.com/Counterpoint-4th-Kent-Kennan/dp/013080746X (Kennan's Counterpoint) + workbook <== finishing this
3- Something about "20th century music and serial music" <== not there yet

Honestly, this entire process has really been freeing, as I become more confident in music understanding (why things happen where they happen)
He also pushed to use ear training software like Earmaster... that also has been freeing as I became more confident in my abilities.

Weekly lessons with homework in between.
It's been almost 2 years now.

I think this is what most music majors are about... but that was not my major, just a hobby for me.


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## whiskers (Dec 12, 2018)

antonyb said:


> Not sure if you want a name or more of a process that's going on.
> I'll talk about the latter. PM me if you want contact information.
> 
> Being a performer for 30+ years has been fine but I wanted to actually better understand what was going on in the music I was playing.
> ...



exactly this is what I was curious about it. Sounds great.


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## jbuhler (Dec 12, 2018)

whiskers said:


> As a quick aside, could you expound on this 'composition teacher' you have? I recently starting taking piano lessons, but composition lessons (in person) would be even more ideal.


If you know of any composers in your area, contact them; they may be accepting students. Or if you have a college or university in your area, see if there is a composer who offers private lessons. If they have a graduate program, you might also be able to get lessons from an advanced graduate student. Here I'm thinking of training in the basics of classical composition.


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## dzilizzi (Dec 12, 2018)

I just finished the fundamentals of music (theory 1) at the local community college. Only problem is the next classes are currently only day classes. They have a good music department, but it is geared towards full time students. 

One place to check is Coursera, if you don't have any local schools. They have some very good music courses you can audit for free. Or if you pay, you can get feedback from the instructor. They aren't overly expensive, but I didn't have time to keep up with the last one I did.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Dec 12, 2018)

My concept and way: sitting at a piano creating a melody with one hand. If that is telling something then this is a good sign, if not I am trying more, that can take a couple of days or even longer after I have "something". Next step I do is to harmonize that melody and write a couple of derivatives with different harmonisations. I am actually in the process doing a new piece and so this is how I start. I play the piece also a lot and improvise while playing. My credo: Small hand movements, often 1 half step motions. Everybody has different techniques, try out what works for you. Not sure if there is a perfect way..hm maybe not, there are couple of techniques and I think you should try out. Also singing things is good, I often sing my things while playing it. Sounds atrocious but it helps me getting ideas.


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## antonyb (Dec 12, 2018)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Is there a perfect way to start a new piece?
> 
> I am curious about everyone's opinion/process on this.
> 
> ...


I didn't mean to derail the OP. Sorry.


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## dzilizzi (Dec 12, 2018)

Yes, I shouldn't have added to the off topic. But, I find that doing anything music related gives me ideas. That and the turn signal in my car. It is like a click track. I just start humming along. Sometimes I even have time to grab my phone to record it.


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## D-Mott (Dec 12, 2018)

Just play. Whenever I sit down and try and come up with something I allow my self to just play as if I was a kid, playing with his toys. I do not expect to come up with something every time I make an attempt. I need to allow my self to fail and accept that I will fail many times before eventually something great happens. I swear, if you are patient and you hang in there long enough, something will happen that you may not expect.

The hardest part is finding peace with failing, which often detours me from actually sitting down and starting in the first place. Once you are sitting there and trying, you are already making the right start imo.


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## AllanH (Dec 16, 2018)

I start on the piano and try to develop the concept/idea. When I have a rough idea, I record it and save for reference. I then play it into Cubase and do an initial quick and simple orchestration around the idea. If it still sounds "good" after a day or two, I'll start working it in detail.


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## Wolf68 (Dec 16, 2018)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Is there a perfect way to start a new piece?
> 
> I am curious about everyone's opinion/process on this.
> 
> ...



Hahaha...a very entertaining thread. I especially enjoyed your described crying, shouting, pacing and trying to "massage it into something coherent". As you can see beneath my Picture, I am also now and then in the Situation, that I wished to have some creative Output. But I am in the luxurious Situation, that I am no professional musician...so no Deadlines, no client's wishes or reconstructing stuff over and over.

Here is the way it goes at my site:

- during improvising on the piano keys I discover something interesting, its then like a vague forshadow where the further melodies and harmonies sit. I Isolate it and save it as a cubase sketch. if the theme is strong enough, I have Motivation to develop it furtheron, if not, it gathers dust in the Folder with all the other sketches.
- for me there are generally two ways of composing: 1. constructing, which requires technical skills 2. intuition, the theme Comes to you. mostly compositions are a healthy mix of both sources, but sure the things that come to you are the best.

I should compose something, now.


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## dgburns (Dec 16, 2018)

Fire up the daw, check mail, load a starting template, let out a great big fart, step away from the desk for awhile. Come back when it’s safe, look at the show. Curse the video edit. Decide on signature, tempo and hope for the best. A few hours later, print out what nonsense is on timeline, go for a walk, supper. Come back, check what you did, decide it’s not the worst you heard. Lament the lack of progress. Check email again. Answer emails and check FB. Decide to look at VI control. Go back to work, look up and see it’s 3am. decide to go to bed. Come back tomorrow and do the next bit, minus the fart this time. Ate better yesterday. Oh, when was I supposed to start ? There is no start, there is no end, it’s just one big marathon. Some days good, some days productive, some days I can’t think straight. Most days something gets accomplished, even if it’s a good cup of coffee. Like today, good coffee.


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## ka00 (Jan 6, 2019)

Something I noticed, which might be just be a fluke, is that I forced myself to not make any musical compositions for a couple of months while I finished an all-consuming, non-music related project. I found that at the end of those two months I had a period of a few days where I improvised a bunch of new stuff on the piano that I found interesting, and then turned one of those into a song.

I don't know if the brain works this way, but somehow it seemed like deliberately abstaining from music for a set period made my return to it much interesting. Like recharging batteries; resetting patterns or something.

Of course, during those two months, I spent a lot of time actively listening to music that I really liked, paying attention to the structure and instrumentation, etc.


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## AllanH (Jan 6, 2019)

ka00 said:


> Something I noticed, which might be just be a fluke, is that I forced myself to not make any musical compositions for a couple of months ...



That is interesting, indeed, and matches my experience.

I have to take breaks with nearly everything I write. I definitely experience something akin to "compositional fatigue" that essentially encourages me to take breaks, even if it just means working on another project. I've always attributed that to lack of skills


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## Farkle (Jan 6, 2019)

FWIW, I did a Farkle Friday on the topic of "Generating an Idea", where I talk about how I put myself in the chair every morning, and start a piece from scratch. Maybe it will help?


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