# Sound Variation improvements in Studio One 5.3: MIDI Channels, East West Opus and Musical Symbols



## Lukas (Jun 29, 2021)

Studio One 5.3 is now available 

In this video I demonstrate the Sound Variations improvements in 5.3.




Some long-awaited features and a few surprises probably. I hope you like it.


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## DaddyO (Jun 29, 2021)

SUUU-per! You guys are definitely tacking articulation assignment and management to a whole new level.


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## ennbr (Jun 29, 2021)

Thanks for the new video Lukas


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## tabulius (Jun 29, 2021)

Awesome!!!


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Jun 29, 2021)

Looks good! Yay to finally having midi channel switching.

What takes precedence when using variations + symbols?


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## Cheezus (Jun 29, 2021)

Oh hell yes. Exactly what I've been wanting.


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## Akora (Jun 29, 2021)

Thanks for the video Lukas! It's crazy how improved Studio One has been since the version 5 release. Now I'm just wishing for an upgrade to the video player to make scoring to picture come closer to that of Cubase, and it's pretty much the perfect DAW in my opinion!


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## Crossroads (Jun 29, 2021)

Definitely the very, very best implementation of articulation switching in the DAW market right now. So easy, yet totally not limited. Fantastic design. Congrats @Lukas !

Also, what @Kenneth Malm said. My number one still biggest feature request.


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## AEF (Jun 29, 2021)

Fantastic. The speed at which these improvements come is amazing.

Now on to SMPTE? Pretty pretty please!


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## muziksculp (Jun 29, 2021)

*Version 5.3 Release Notes (June 29, 2021):

New features and improvements:*
● Musical Symbols playback with Sound Variations
● MIDI channel support for Sound Variations
● ZIP conversion option for documents including upload to PreSonus Sphere
● Chord Track chords to Note Events conversion
● Drag & Drop support for Presets and FX Chains on Show Page
● Seamless Patch changes on Show Page
● Note Controller support for VST3 instruments via VST Note Expression and MPE
● Updated manuals in English and Japanese
● Updated PreSonus audio interface templates

*The following issues have been fixed:*
● [ATOM SQ] Device script sends Sustain message 2 times
● [ATOM SQ] Japanese characters result in blank display cells
● [Drum Editor] Transform tool misses last note of a given selection
● [Impact XT] Eco Filter causing high level noise with certain samples
● [Note Editor] "Fill with notes" in custom pitch range adds unwanted notes outside the range
● [Note Editor] In certain situations, "Length / Legato + Overlap Correction" creates unwanted note length
● [Note FX] Arpeggiator not triggering with note values less than 1 beat
● [Pro EQ²] 12th octave spectrum meter is incorrect
● [Pro EQ²] Potential crash when using LowCut at 48dB/Oct

● [Project Page] Undo history doesn't call out parameters and values
● [Score Editor] “Fill with rests” causes the score to be drawn incorrectly
● [Score Editor] Potential crash when repeatedly executing enharmonic respelling tool
● [Show Page] "Add Player" commands disabled depending on workspace focus
● [Show Page] Selecting a patch containing a splitter creates a phantom splitter
● [Sound Variations] "Find and Apply Variation" during recording won't record already activated variation
● [Sound Variations] Momentary Sound Variations can be stacked but only the one added last is visible
● [Sound Variations] When applying momentary sound variations to a note, the same (momentary) variation can be added several times

● [Waves Plug-ins] Graphics may become sluggish when hovering the mouse pointer above plug-in controls
● [Windows] Cannot save song when it's selected in the browser
● [Windows] Incorrect resizing when moving plug-in window from regular to HiDPI display w/ certain plug-ins
● Actions are not aimed at multiple selected events/parts after shift+deselect
● Automation follows events may create redundant nodes
● Buses jump out of folders in Console when editing their automation
● Collapsing a Multi Instrument inside a folder hides Multi Instrument
● Commands inside a macro can change behavior if keyboard shortcuts use modifier keys
● Compare button does not toggle with 3rd party plugins
● Drag & Drop from Steinberg Backbone VSTi not working
● VST3 compatibility improvements

● Editing an automation curve might show unwanted behavior
● “Follow Chords”, "Play Overlaps" and Tune Mode doesn't copy over when executing 'Duplicate Track Complete"
● Marker list is not shown in Studio One Remote
● Mouse wheel is inverted on chord track inspector octave field
● Moving an External Instrument Track from one Bus Folder to another loses the Input assignment of its Aux Channel
● Outputs to bus reset to Main when folder track is removed
● Play Overlaps checkbox doesn't get copied over to new track when using "duplicate track complete"
● Potential crash when triggering "Zoom Selected Track" after mixer scene change
● Range Select+Copy pastes range at incorrect destination when there is automation data
● Renaming audio files fails w/ error message "file is in use" in certain cases
● “Show in Context” does not work for effects on browser home page
● Small 3rd-party plug-in window is not centered
● Tone Generator pops in certain situations
● “Transform To Audio” changes the track's Tempo & Timestretch settings to "default"


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## wcreed51 (Jun 29, 2021)

I thought SV only worked with VST3 to auto populate


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## babylonwaves (Jun 29, 2021)

Great to see MIDI channels!


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## Crossroads (Jun 29, 2021)

Do I read this correctly?

● Note Controller support for VST3 instruments via VST Note Expression and MPE

Would this mean that Steinberg VST Note Expression instruments like Halion 6 and for example Iconica also work with this?


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## Lukas (Jun 29, 2021)

wcreed51 said:


> I thought SV only worked with VST3 to auto populate


No. It depends on if the plug-in implements it. It's possible with both VST2 and VST3. For example, Synchron Player currently has SV support in the VST3 version only. Opus supports SV in the VST2 version only.




babylonwaves said:


> Great to see MIDI channels!


Yep, no KSP program change middleware more needed


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## dcoscina (Jun 29, 2021)

Kenneth Malm said:


> Thanks for the video Lukas! It's crazy how improved Studio One has been since the version 5 release. Now I'm just wishing for an upgrade to the video player to make scoring to picture come closer to that of Cubase, and it's pretty much the perfect DAW in my opinion!


for Mac, I don't find Cubase all that great for video. You have to use a different computer in most cases.... whereas Logic and DP run video very smoothly in a single computer. At least my experience. Others may have different experiences.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 29, 2021)

Nice update - there was some thought that given past release cycles, we'd see 5.5 soon (a much bigger update you would imagine).

Took a quick look - seems like you still can't set default MIDI controller channels sadly. Adding Expression to every track in a template is quite a chore.

Wonder if they've improved any background saving / large template handling performance?


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## Kurosawa (Jun 29, 2021)

Man... Studio One is sure becoming a great DAW


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## Kurosawa (Jun 29, 2021)

Wow, this is great!


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## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Jun 29, 2021)

Thanks, Lucas. Your videos are always more informative than those of PreSonus themselves 🥴

I wonder when they're gonna release 5.5. It seems it could be their largest and noisiest interim update.


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## Snarf (Jun 29, 2021)

Fantastic update!


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## Trash Panda (Jun 29, 2021)

What a lovely surprise.


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## djburton (Jun 29, 2021)

This is a terrific update. When S1 can perform MIDI list Edits, I’ll be abandoning Cubase.


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## pinki (Jun 29, 2021)

Wow no regrets leaving DP this year (after 20 years). Studio One is _alive. _


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## Toecutter (Jun 29, 2021)

Each update gets me more and more interested in Studio One. I know the experts don't recommend updating software mid project... but how about switching DAWs entirely XD

Two questions for the experienced users:
Can I edit individual CC data for different midi channels (articulations) in the same track? For ex, if my Sound Variation has Nashville Scoring Strings violin legato on midi channel 1 and NSS marcato on channel 2 but I want individual CC 1 and 11 curves for each articulation, how does Studio One handle that? Can I edit multi-channel CC curves in the same track?

Score editor x midi notes. I like to play the parts and still have a readable score. How many ms can I move a midi note before it messes the score view? Is this a setting at all? Can I tell Studio One to "quantize" or "lock" the score view and ignore small midi notes adjustements for playback reasons?


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## muziksculp (Jun 29, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> Can I edit individual CC data for different midi channels (articulations) in the same track? For ex, if my Sound Variation has Nashville Scoring Strings violin legato on midi channel 1 and NSS marcato on channel 2 but I want individual CC 1 and 11 curves for each articulation, how does Studio One handle that? Can I edit multi-channel CC curves in the same track?


I don't think you can have multiple midi channel data on one track in S1Pro5. Midi note data belong to one midi channel that is assigned to the track.


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## pinki (Jun 29, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> Score editor x midi notes. I like to play the parts and still have a readable score. How many ms can I move a midi note before it messes the score view? Is this a setting at all? Can I tell Studio One to "quantize" or "lock" the score view and ignore small midi notes adjustements for playback reasons?


Not sure exactly how many ms but it has an amount of latitude that seems to work for me. In DP you can do as you suggest and separate out the score notes and playback notes but I don't think S1 has that. (it was very buggy in DP)


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## artinro (Jun 29, 2021)

Random question for the Studio One experts out there: I recently discovered that the latest versions of Cubase no longer have a feature that I'd really come to rely on....localized undo. Let's say you're working on a violin part, you make some edits, then you go in and work on a percussion part. If you come back into the violin track and hit undo, only the last thing you did in the violin part is undone etc... Because Steinberg decided to remove this from Cubase, I find myself looking at Studio One more and more.


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## Toecutter (Jun 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I don't think you can have multiple midi channel data on one track in S1Pro5. Midi note data belong to one midi channel that is assigned to the track.


That's how Cubase works... bummer. I was hoping that with Sound Variations, S1Pro5 would have 16 independent midi channel data editable in one track. Or some sort of smart solution. How awesome would it be to "sculpt" a phrase using a bunch of articulations in a single track? Thanks for confirming!



pinki said:


> Not sure exactly how many ms but it has an amount of latitude that seems to work for me. In DP you can do as you suggest and separate out the score notes and playback notes but I don't think S1 has that. (it was very buggy in DP)


Just enough ms to get a human feel, it will probably work for me too, thanks  About DP, I'm curious, was it an old version? Windows or Mac? This is the sort of feature that would make me consider testing DP if it worked well enough. Don't want to waste my time if it's broken tho...


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 29, 2021)

Lukas, I like how Sound variations and S1 are evolving for articulation management. I have not gone past S1vg4 yet, but maybe I will soon.

Question for you, With the new SV by midi channel feature, did PreSonus make sure to implement the one thing that both LogicPro and Cubase completely missed...which is that when you have a source track and it is channelizing articulations across multiple midi channels, on the way to the instrument; the source track may have some midi automation such as CC, Aftertouch or PitchBend...which also needs to follow the notes to the various relevant midi channels that are playing the actual articulations...otherwise, automation of expression becomes very problematic when using midi channels to direct articulations from a single source track.

Both Apple and Steinberg missed this fact. I am wondering if PreSonus did not miss it?

I worked around this problem in LogicPro by using Scripter to handle the task. But if S1 is doing it already, that would be a great advantage.

Cakewalk is currently the only DAW I know of that has provided a way, though a bit cumbersome, to handle this challenge with their articulation management.


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## InLight-Tone (Jun 29, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> Each update gets me more and more interested in Studio One. I know the experts don't recommend updating software mid project... but how about switching DAWs entirely XD


You'll lose 6 months of your Life, quidado!


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## InLight-Tone (Jun 29, 2021)

Whats with the articulation hoopla? I thought everybody was moving to separate articulations per track like Anne Dern


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## muziksculp (Jun 29, 2021)

InLight-Tone said:


> Whats with the articulation hoopla? I thought everybody was moving to separate articulations per track like Anne Dern


Separate articulations per track, Hmmm... I always thought that's another type of headache to deal with, and manage.


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## dcoscina (Jun 29, 2021)

Sound variations is cool but the chord track thing ain’t working for me here..I tried applying it to transpose a section and nada.. and it spikes the cPU on my Mac as well and comes to a freeze.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 29, 2021)

Anybody getting crazy high CPU usage with this version? My iMac fans are blowing non-stop with my template open (all tracks disabled).


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## InLight-Tone (Jun 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Separate articulations per track, Hmmm... I always thought that's another type of headache to deal with, and manage.


It is if you're doing anything beyond simple layering...


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## dcoscina (Jun 29, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Anybody getting crazy high CPU usage with this version? My iMac fans are blowing non-stop with my template open (all tracks disabled).


Yeah it’s pretty bad. Not sure what’s up with that


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## Toecutter (Jun 29, 2021)

Windows users getting high CPU usage too?


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## pinki (Jun 29, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> Just enough ms to get a human feel, it will probably work for me too, thanks  About DP, I'm curious, was it an old version? Windows or Mac? This is the sort of feature that would make me consider testing DP if it worked well enough. Don't want to waste my time if it's broken tho...


Latest version 10 on Mac. I had a long exchange with Motu and they acknowledged it- a complete freeze when assigning notes to 'playback only' status, (in a particular situation I cannot recall) but they never fixed it. I would not recommend DP anymore as the rate of fixing things is glacial. The reason I stuck with DP was the notation editor/DAW integration but Studio One is way better now.


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## Snarf (Jun 30, 2021)

artinro said:


> Random question for the Studio One experts out there: I recently discovered that the latest versions of Cubase no longer have a feature that I'd really come to rely on....localized undo. Let's say you're working on a violin part, you make some edits, then you go in and work on a percussion part. If you come back into the violin track and hit undo, only the last thing you did in the violin part is undone etc... Because Steinberg decided to remove this from Cubase, I find myself looking at Studio One more and more.


Unfortunately, Studio One does not have this local undo function either. Best way to deal with this is probably to go back in the edit history, copy what you need, and paste/replace it back in the present. I haven't necessarily missed this feature personally, but I can see why people would. Hope that helps!


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## Crossroads (Jun 30, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Separate articulations per track, Hmmm... I always thought that's another type of headache to deal with, and manage.


I do a hybrid. Longs, shorts, pizz col bartok, fz and aleatoric. As per Christian Henson. Best of both worlds. Also best for mixing and sending stems off.


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## easyrider (Jun 30, 2021)

Best DAW in the world! 🥳


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## artinro (Jun 30, 2021)

Snarf said:


> Unfortunately, Studio One does not have this local undo function either. Best way to deal with this is probably to go back in the edit history, copy what you need, and paste/replace it back in the present. I haven't necessarily missed this feature personally, but I can see why people would. Hope that helps!


Thanks for letting me know about Studio One. Appreciate that. Yes, your edit history idea would work, but it still adds additional time to the process. The changes that have been made to Cubase since that feature was nixed aren’t nearly enough for me to keep using Cubase 11, so I’ve just reverted back to a pre-10.5 build. Studio One should think about adding this feature and I’d strongly consider the switch. Steinberg takes forever to implement even the most basic requests in Cubase (if they ever do at all), so I’m not holding my breath.


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## Fizzlewig (Jun 30, 2021)

There is also another control track in the midi editor, which is really cool. It is where the velocity / controller lanes are and I think it’s calked musical symbols (not at the computer at the moment), I think this is new as well? Or was it there on the previous update?


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## Soundbed (Jun 30, 2021)

Lukas said:


> Studio One 5.3 is now available
> 
> In this video I demonstrate the Sound Variations improvements in 5.3.
> 
> ...



Wow great! I really like the ability to easily apply (notation) articulations to sound variations!


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## Snarf (Jun 30, 2021)

Fizzlewig said:


> There is also another control track in the midi editor, which is really cool. It is where the velocity / controller lanes are and I think it’s calked musical symbols (not at the computer at the moment), I think this is new as well? Or was it there on the previous update?


This is new too. You can now connect musical symbols (notation) to sound variations. So, if you're working in notation view (or even the piano roll) and apply a staccato marking to some notes, it can actually affect playback.


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## Trancer (Jun 30, 2021)

Studio One devient de plus en plus intéressant.

Cependant, sauf erreur, il ne prend pas en charge les produits Native Instruments, Komplet kontrol s61 mk2 / Maschine Mikro mk3 et Komplet kontrol 2. 

Si c'est toujours le cas, dommage vu l'excellent Daw qu'il est.


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## Fizzlewig (Jun 30, 2021)

What I did was real-time record a VSL violin , went to the variations editor and auto populate, made a few editions such as staccato etc. Then went into the score added slurs, staccato, pizzicato and dynamics plus crescendo etc, and it played it all back. Then went into the key edit window and saw the new option in the control edit lane. From here you can then moves the attached symbols to other time positions, such as crescendo etc. All very cool!!


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## Lukas (Jun 30, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> Can I edit individual CC data for different midi channels (articulations) in the same track? For ex, if my Sound Variation has Nashville Scoring Strings violin legato on midi channel 1 and NSS marcato on channel 2 but I want individual CC 1 and 11 curves for each articulation, how does Studio One handle that? Can I edit multi-channel CC curves in the same track?


As soon as you change the MIDI channel through a Sound Variation change, controller data will be sent on the new MIDI channel as well. So if you add a CC11 automation and you want this to affect another articulation (on a different MIDI channel) as well, you could just add a CC11 ramp and insert the new Sound Variation somewhere in the middle.




Dewdman42 said:


> Question for you, With the new SV by midi channel feature, did PreSonus make sure to implement the one thing that both LogicPro and Cubase completely missed...which is that when you have a source track and it is channelizing articulations across multiple midi channels, on the way to the instrument; the source track may have some midi automation such as CC, Aftertouch or PitchBend...which also needs to follow the notes to the various relevant midi channels that are playing the actual articulations...otherwise, automation of expression becomes very problematic when using midi channels to direct articulations from a single source track.


Not quite sure what the problematic part is here. Is it that CC automation isn't sent to different MIDI channels at all when the channel is changed via Expression Maps etc.? Or do you mean that the whole current "state" (values of all used CCs) should be sent on the new channel once a channel change is triggered?


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 30, 2021)

Lukas said:


> Not quite sure what the problematic part is here. Is it that CC automation isn't sent to different MIDI channels at all when the channel is changed via Expression Maps etc.? Or do you mean that the whole current "state" (values of all used CCs) should be sent on the new channel once a channel change is triggered?



If you have a single source track with midi on it, that track May also have some midi automation such as cc11, cc1, pitchbend and even aftertouch rarely.

If you also attempt to use midi channelization in order to direct different notes from that one source track to different midi channels in order to play back those notes with different articulation samples, then the above mentioned cc and pitchbend automation will not effect all notes properly unless it is also channelized automatically to go to all the channels where midi notes are currently sustaining. The goal is to have one source track that you can program with notes and assign them articulations and record or draw in automation curves that will effect them. If SV is using midi channelization to route the notes, the cc automation needs to also follow the notes, automatically.

In answer to your either/or question, Chasing also needs to happen


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 30, 2021)

I read just now what you said that your direction style SV changes will affect cc automation also, so that sounds like yes to me that presonus has covered this! But perhaps not for the symbol feature which is on a note by note basis similar as cubase attribute style

But see my comment about chasing. When a direction change happens the last known value of say cc1 would need to be automatically chased to the new midi channel for the source track to behave as expected and as one would expect if the whole track was a single midi channel


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## Lukas (Jun 30, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> I read just now what you said that your direction style SV changes will affect cc automation also, so that sounds like yes to me that presonus has covered this! But perhaps not for the symbol feature which is on a note by note basis similar as cubase attribute style


It will affect cc automation also in that once an SV changes the MIDI channel target, every following CC automation will be sent to the new MIDI channel.

No chasing of all used CC data. This of course would be possible but once you do this, it means that the user does not have any control over which exact CC automation is sent to which instrument (unless you add a bunch of additional options). It may not always be the expected behavior to send controller data to an instrument at a position where actually no automation change takes place. That's why this decision is left to the user.



Dewdman42 said:


> But perhaps not for the symbol feature which is on a note by note basis similar as cubase attribute style


It's the same behavior. The symbols are on a note-by-note basis but technically it just activates an SV and these are per range (-> Cubase direction style).


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## Toecutter (Jun 30, 2021)

Lukas said:


> As soon as you change the MIDI channel through a Sound Variation change, controller data will be sent on the new MIDI channel as well. So if you add a CC11 automation and you want this to affect another articulation (on a different MIDI channel) as well, you could just add a CC11 ramp and insert the new Sound Variation somewhere in the middle.


Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant having both legato and marcato articulations playing at the same time but having different CC1 data for each MIDI channel (for ex, oppositve curves). Is this possible with Sound Variation?


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## Lukas (Jun 30, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant having both legato and marcato articulations playing at the same time but having different CC1 data for each MIDI channel (for ex, oppositve curves). Is this possible with Sound Variation?


No, because Sound Variations switch between different articulations. So you can't have two SVs being active at the same time.

What you can do - if you go the "one articulation per track" way - is editing both tracks (instrument parts) in one editor view and change the track selection to see & edit the individual CC automation for each track. So you would be able to switch between the CC automation for legato and marcato while editing.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 30, 2021)

Lukas if you don’t chase the cc then the behavior is not consistent with a single midi channel track. 

What I have done in my logicpro scripter solution is to have the script keep track of any cc’s that have come from the source track since hitting play and each of those cc#’s gets automatically chased every time there is a need for it. It can be managed automatically there is no need for the user to configure anything.

Also my script solution can handle the fact that you can have poly articulation situations with two different articulations currently sustaining at once, requiring the cc automation to be forwarded to more than one midi channel at a time for a time. Even in non poly articulation scenarios, you can have one note of one articulation followed immediately by a note of a different articulation, but the sample release time of the first note can overlap over the time after the second note had already been triggered on a different channel. So cc automation would need to affect both channels during that overlap period.


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## Lukas (Jun 30, 2021)

I know  I used my own Program Change -> CC KSP script (with chasing!) before this feature was implemented in 5.3. But what if one of the instruments shouldn't receive Aftertouch ... or CC7 ... or any arbitrary CC that is used by VSL Synchron Player but will do something entirely unwanted in another instrument? The user wouldn't be able to prevent this.

I agree that there are situations where this does not matter at all and automatic chasing would be beneficial.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 30, 2021)

You can read about my logicpro script here:

https://gitlab.com/dewdman42/Channelizer/-/wikis/home

Anyone can use any part of this they want, I will happily switch over to any daw that covers all the bases of articulation management. I will look at the scenario you mentioned more closely later


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## Lukas (Jun 30, 2021)

I see, you provide different options on which events (CC, pitchbend, ...) should be forwarded. That at least allows some configurations to avoid potentially unwanted redirects.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 30, 2021)

Lukas said:


> But what if one of the instruments shouldn't receive Aftertouch ... or CC7 ... or any arbitrary CC that is used by VSL Synchron Player but will do something entirely unwanted in another instrument? The user wouldn't be able to prevent this.



Generally the main cc automation such as cc1, cc11, etc which is the most common case; needs to go to all the midi channels. Obviously if you want to put some special midi automation that is unique to only one articulation then you’d probably want to put that on a dedicated track. I see that as being the unusual case.

If you mix and match different instruments for different articulations to create a hybrid instrument then it could also be the case that cc1 and cc11 might not be level balanced between the two instruments which is generally one of the complications of using a mixed bag of sample instruments for one virtual instrument that pushes one towards using a seperate track entirely per articulation in that case


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 30, 2021)

Lukas said:


> I see, you provide different options on which events (CC, pitchbend, ...) should be forwarded. Not exactly the same as an on/off behavior ("forward everything" / "don't chase at all").



It all chases automatically. It’s only a question of whether you want to bother with pc and aftertouch. I typically use cc and pitchbend

Also take note that in this case it is a global setting affecting all source channels, in logicpro for example with vepro that means one script with these global settings would affect all tracks feeding a single vepro instance. But more ideally those settings could be in a per source track basis however that is not possible with logicpro scripter GUI limitations


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## AEF (Jun 30, 2021)

Are users finding the higher CPU load when using the new features or in general?


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## DCPImages (Jun 30, 2021)

Any news of native Apple Silicon M1 support?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 30, 2021)

AEF said:


> Are users finding the higher CPU load when using the new features or in general?


In general for me on Mac. Not been doing anything I didn't do in 5.2. Not very useable for me at the moment.


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## Lukas (Jun 30, 2021)

What does higher CPU load mean? "When using the new features" - which new features? When? Reproducible?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 30, 2021)

Using the same template I was using in 5.2. Fans on my iMac going full speed constantly - CPU going to 200-250% in Activity Monitor for some reason (CPU meter in S1 not moving though). Only using a handful of Kontakt instruments that I usually use with some Sound Variations.


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## Lukas (Jun 30, 2021)

Do you still have 5.2 installed? Can you make an A/B comparison?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 30, 2021)

Lukas said:


> Do you still have 5.2 installed? Can you make an A/B comparison?


I don't have it installed separately that I know of (I think an update replaces the old application?). I just remember when using 5.2, I didn't have this issue.


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## G_Erland (Jun 30, 2021)

Downloaded and resumed work on track today, no problems or increased CPU as far as I can tell. Win10.

A question: is it supposed to be possible to set a long note, start off p and hairpin up to f, say? And then have the the hairpin fade up the «expression» CC (Edit: Im talking about the notation view)? The range list leads me to believe so, but I see no way to change what parameter the range applies to.

Also, anybody think OTs SINE will support the S1 system? Autopopulate an so on..

Thanks so much for the video, it really was a help today!


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## Lukas (Jun 30, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I think an update replaces the old application


That can be avoided by renaming the old application.



ALittleNightMusic said:


> I just remember when using 5.2, I didn't have this issue.


Yes... but can you guarantee that nothing has changed (audio settings, MacOS, plug-ins)?


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## Lukas (Jun 30, 2021)

G_Erland said:


> Also, anybody think OTs SINE will support the S1 system? Autopopulate an so on..


Let them know you would like to see SINE support Sound Variations 



G_Erland said:


> A question: is it supposed to be possible to set a long note, start off p and hairpin up to f, say? And then have the the hairpin fade up the «expression» CC? The range list leads me to believe so, but I see no way to change what parameter the range applies to.


These are velocity values (MIDI: 0...127, not percent) so the dynamics symbols change the note velocities.


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## G_Erland (Jun 30, 2021)

Lukas said:


> Let them know you would like to see SINE support Sound Variations
> 
> 
> I was not involved in the Musical Symbols feature but as far as I know, These are velocity values so the dynamics symbols change the note velocities.


So, in the use case of SINE, you can off course set expression to correspond to velocity, so symbols will work with any single note. Might not be possible i guess, but would be interesting to know - if things like hairpin crescendo could draw an actual CC curve.

And yes I will tell them, Berlin is a big city, so many doors to knock, but it will be worth it


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 30, 2021)

Lukas said:


> That can be avoided by renaming the old application.
> 
> 
> Yes... but can you guarantee that nothing has changed (audio settings, MacOS, plug-ins)?


Yup - nothing has changed in terms of my system from before.


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## AEF (Jun 30, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Using the same template I was using in 5.2. Fans on my iMac going full speed constantly - CPU going to 200-250% in Activity Monitor for some reason (CPU meter in S1 not moving though). Only using a handful of Kontakt instruments that I usually use with some Sound Variations.


Do you use AU or VST in your projects? Or both?

S1 5.2 was super stable for me when I was using Sphere, and may re-up my sub, but want to wait to see if CPU is good on Mac. I really want to try to wait until some sort of workable scoring to picture solution exists via SMPTE and setting bar numbers to specific SMPTE time.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 30, 2021)

AEF said:


> Do you use AU or VST in your projects? Or both?
> 
> S1 5.2 was super stable for me when I was using Sphere, and may re-up my sub, but want to wait to see if CPU is good on Mac. I really want to try to wait until some sort of workable scoring to picture solution exists via SMPTE and setting bar numbers to specific SMPTE time.


I only use VST (VST 3 if available).


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## pinki (Jul 1, 2021)

I am in the middle of some big projects on Mac on 5.2 so will download 5.3 today and check the CPU issue.
Re hairpins and cc, I would like to know the answer to this too


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## Audio Birdi (Jul 1, 2021)

pinki said:


> I am in the middle of some big projects on Mac on 5.2 so will download 5.3 today and check the CPU issue.
> Re hairpins and cc, I would like to know the answer to this too


If it is possible to link dynamics markings to CC values / ramps / fades, this would genuinely be a huge improvement and something that hasn't been done in mainstream DAWs yet. Hopefully it's possible now, or even in a future update!

Would be very cool to find out if anyone knows!


----------



## Lukas (Jul 2, 2021)

Currently it only impacts velocity.


----------



## Fizzlewig (Jul 2, 2021)

I think if Presonus can deliver /implement crescendo and fades on long notes using cc control data, that would be game over. It would be incredible. How decent it might end up though is another aspect, because drawing in cc data exactly by ‘hand’ to get the desired effect is difficult to say the least, so I don’t know how automatic cc data written using musical symbols will fair. I only hope they can implement this!!


----------



## Dewdman42 (Jul 2, 2021)

maybe leverage the playback tech from Notion into S1..... Notion has quite sophisticated playback features that hardly anyone knows about.

But really this kind of tech is related to notation, not typical DAW situations. And while it may sound simple to do...its not, and leads to never ending levels of complexity required to support human playback features...

The whole point of a DAW is to provide control that is not often possible with various notation playback engines.......rather than automatic playback. In a dAW I want to be able to draw the cc curves in to my exact spec. The challenge is more about making it easier to have some instrument with lots of different articulations that can be optionally played and making it easy in the DAW to program which articulation at which times to use.

From an articulation management perspective, what would be interesting, however, is the ability to assign different sound variations, determined by CC levels. In other words...let's say I would like to label a certain phrase as "staccato" using an articulation management system, and fine so far, the system will make sure to send the right keyswitches for staccato. But let's say I want to use a different set of samples for staccato when the CC1 or CC11 is above a certain point...for the louder ones...and a different staccato sample for the softer ones. Automatically...and presuming the instrument is not already programmed in cross faded layers...but I want to have the articulation engine choose different sounds depending on the current dynamic level, specified by a CC.... That is where an articulation Management system could become more aware.

Dorico Expression maps can do that sort of thing...

But even Cubase and Logic are able to read symbols on the score and determine which articulations to use.....I'm not sure they automatically handle <> dynamic curves and what not the way notational programs often do. Its a different philosophy...where in the notational, the goal is to just write standard notation and have that interpreted into playback automatically...as opposed to DAW's where we want absolute control over every nuance.....but simply want an easier way to program the articulation changes.


----------



## pinki (Jul 2, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> maybe leverage the playback tech from Notion into S1..... Notion has quite sophisticated playback features that hardly anyone knows about.
> 
> But really this kind of tech is related to notation, not typical DAW situations. And while it may sound simple to do...its not, and leads to never ending levels of complexity required to support human playback features...
> 
> ...


Exactly. To be honest I was surprised to see notational playback in this update. It's definitely more notation programme territory. Though I am interested to explore how I'll use it in my workflow from Notion to Studio One.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 3, 2021)

I may not be able to find it, but has Presonus added the ability to nudge MIDI notes by specific milliseconds now (without all the workarounds)? Very useful for Cinematic Studio libraries.


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## Trash Panda (Jul 3, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I may not be able to find it, but has Presonus added the ability to nudge MIDI notes by specific milliseconds now (without all the workarounds)? Very useful for Cinematic Studio libraries.


Just the macro Lukas shared, but it will spam up your undo history as its individual nudges of 1 ms each.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 3, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Just the macro Lukas shared, but it will spam up your undo history as its individual nudges of 1 ms each.


Ah, that was my fear. No plans to use that and have thousands of extra undo steps when trying to move notes for various legato speeds across sections.


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## Trash Panda (Jul 3, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Ah, that was my fear. No plans to use that and have thousands of extra undo steps when trying to move notes for various legato speeds across sections.


Honestly, I wish one of the DAWs would offer note level offsets as an attribute, but I’m sure the use cases are too limited.

@Lukas


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 3, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Honestly, I wish one of the DAWs would offer note level offsets as an attribute, but I’m sure the use cases are too limited.
> 
> @Lukas


This is why I think Modern Scoring Strings' latest update is so revolutionary. It adds the offsets based on the articulation playing automatically. Everything gets calculated for you and compensated. It's pretty amazing.


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## Wedge (Jul 3, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Ah, that was my fear. No plans to use that and have thousands of extra undo steps when trying to move notes for various legato speeds across sections.


It depends on what synth you're using. For instance, I made a macro for CSS -- shared https://vi-control.net/community/th...s-and-tricks-thread.97571/page-8#post-4856593 -- that is set up so that you hit the entire track with the shorts macro (nudges 60ms.) Then select your legato notes as one group. And then select which legato speed you want. The macro will select the notes with that velocity range for that legato speed and nudge over accordingly. So you would have to select the legato sections three times if you're using all three legato speeds but you wouldn't have to select them individually. It wouldn't take long to make a reverse of that macro, so it moves the notes back to their original position.

Tip, macros are just renamed xml files, so if you need to nudge 300 times, make one nudge in the macro editor and save it. Open it in notepad or something similiar to copy and paste away, it's way less tedious.

As for wrecking your undo. Undo is empty everytime you reopen Studio One 5. (Which I hate. If you know a way around that please let me know.) I noticed after the new update if I ran the micro it no longer listed 300 nudges but just one 'nudge' in the undo section. Plus you could look up the history and scroll above the nudge entries and click on the entry above them to not have to ctrl+z 300 times(that would be awful.)

Oh and there seems to be a bug with negative track delay. If I set it to -400.00ms (for MSS) in the track inspector, the timing is horrendus - especially shorts. Straight notes sound like they are going through a timing randomizer (that's with autodivisi, humanization, and everything else including turboboost disabled.) But if it's at 0ms or 600ms, it's fine. I spent more time than I'd like figuring that out last night. I would appreciate if you kind souls out there would let me know if I'm alone with that issue.


----------



## Snarf (Jul 3, 2021)

Judd said:


> Oh and there seems to be a bug with negative track delay. If I set it to -400.00ms (for MSS) in the track inspector, the timing is horrendus - especially shorts. Straight notes sound like they are going through a timing randomizer (that's with autodivisi, humanization, and everything else including turboboost disabled.) But if it's at 0ms or 600ms, it's fine. I spent more time than I'd like figuring that out last night. I would appreciate if you kind souls out there would let me know if I'm alone with that issue.


Please raise this with Presonus! The negative delay bug was a big deal before v5, they need to know it's not completely fixed. You're not the only one with this issue.


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## Lukas (Jul 3, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Just the macro Lukas shared, but it will spam up your undo history as its individual nudges of 1 ms each.


I didn't share this macro... it's too much of a workaround to recommend this to anybody. I developed a script for nudging notes and events and it's actually finished for months but I still can't publish it yet because of several reasons.




Judd said:


> Oh and there seems to be a bug with negative track delay. If I set it to -400.00ms (for MSS) in the track inspector, the timing is horrendus - especially shorts. Straight notes sound like they are going through a timing randomizer


Which Studio One version do you run?


----------



## EgM (Jul 3, 2021)

Honestly, regarding the CSS track delay script.... Wouldn't it be simpler for everybody to ask Cinematic Studio to fix CSS and make it have a static delay for everything?


----------



## Wedge (Jul 3, 2021)

Lukas said:


> I didn't share this macro... it's too much of a workaround to recommend this to anybody. I developed a script for nudging notes and events and it's actually finished for months but I still can't publish it yet because of several reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> Which Studio One version do you run?


I'm running S1 5.3.0.65413 on Windows 10.


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## Wedge (Jul 3, 2021)

Snarf said:


> Please raise this with Presonus! The negative delay bug was a big deal before v5, they need to know it's not completely fixed. You're not the only one with this issue.


I can't find a place to report bugs, other than posting in the community forum which doesn't make sense, so I created a support ticket. If you know a better way to go about, let me know.


----------



## EgM (Jul 3, 2021)

ka00 said:


> Yes! And to clarify for anyone who reads this and wants to debate this, EgM is likely asking for some additional smart scripting work under the hood of CSS (like Andrew K's team did for MSS), to bring the various delays in line with one another. He's not likely asking Alex to cut into the generous sample starts that make CSS legato as good as it is. Correct me if I'm wrong EgM.



I don't actually own CSS, I just keep seeing people asking for this feature to be added to Studio One... But you're correct


----------



## pinki (Jul 3, 2021)

EgM said:


> Honestly, regarding the CSS track delay script.... Wouldn't it be simpler for everybody to ask Cinematic Studio to fix CSS and make it have a static delay for everything?


Yup. The whole negative delay thing has put me off CSS as an option.


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## Babe (Jul 3, 2021)

I'm trying to understand this chasing thing. If I have CC11 set at 60, and I change SV to a different channel, will CC11 be at 60? Whenever I change SV, I want the CC to chase to the last value on the track, not the value for that particular SV/channel. Does track and part automation work the same as far as chasing?


----------



## Snarf (Jul 4, 2021)

Judd said:


> I can't find a place to report bugs, other than posting in the community forum which doesn't make sense, so I created a support ticket. If you know a better way to go about, let me know.


Support ticket is the right channel, yes!


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## AEF (Jul 5, 2021)

I decided to reup on Sphere to play around with 5.3.

Really really poor CPU performance on Mac 10.15.7.....Had a crash the first session when trying to select a different saved preset in SINE (worked fine in both Logic and Nuendo). I'm also getting some peculiar GUI response when dragging event regions around, it lags. 

Really disappointed so far.


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## Lukas (Jul 5, 2021)

AEF said:


> Had a crash the first session when trying to select a different saved preset in SINE (worked fine in both Logic and Nuendo).


Did Studio One say if the crash occurred in SINE or in Studio One itself? I don't know anything about the stability of SINE on MacOS but I never had a single crash with SINE running in Studio One on Windows 10.



AEF said:


> I'm also getting some peculiar GUI response when dragging event regions around, it lags.


Is it an older Mac? (I'm not a Mac guy) Did you try to disable graphics hardware acceleration in the Options?


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## AEF (Jul 5, 2021)

Lukas said:


> Did Studio One say if the crash occurred in SINE or in Studio One itself? I don't know anything about the stability of SINE on MacOS but I never had a single crash with SINE running in Studio One on Windows 10.
> 
> 
> Is it an older Mac? (I'm not a Mac guy) Did you try to disable graphics hardware acceleration in the Options?


It is a 2019. Did not see whether it was caused by SINE, but I used the VST version in Nuendo with no issue, and the AU version in Logic with no issue.

The only common factor here is an updated S1. 

Synchron player is also a CPU hog in S1 where in LPX no issues.


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## Lukas (Jul 5, 2021)

AEF said:


> Synchron player is also a CPU hog in S1 where in LPX no issues.


Does this mean you got issues (dropouts, glitches) in Studio One? Or how do you know if it's a CPU hog compared to Logic?


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## AEF (Jul 5, 2021)

Lukas said:


> Does this mean you got issues (dropouts, glitches) in Studio One? Or how do you know if it's a CPU hog compared to Logic?


the fan was going, in a session with far fewer plugins and instruments.

very very slow GUI responsiveness. like a full 1.5 seconds lag to drag something.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 5, 2021)

AEF said:


> the fan was going, in a session with far fewer plugins and instruments.
> 
> very very slow GUI responsiveness. like a full 1.5 seconds lag to drag something.


Same experience as me (was using Kontakt patches in my case). I think it is not SINE and just this S1 update on Mac.


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## mopsiflopsi (Jul 5, 2021)

Feeling a bit confused about something regarding articulations and auto-keyswitches.

So I'm loading a standard Violins 2 KS patch from EW Opus. I notice that the list of available sound variations are mapped to exactly what comes default with the instrument. Then I add the harmonics articulation to the instrument, assign a key, go back to Studio One and hit "reload map from instrument".... And nothing changes. 

I save the instrument, unload it from Opus player and reload it again, harmonics articulation appears in S1! Yay! If I ask S1 to reload that same instrument now, it inexplicably removes the harmonics articulation from the keyswitch list, even though the instrument did not change, and goes back to the default list again. 

Does this flow look right to you? I would have expected S1 to detect the new articulation on the instrument without me having to reload it in Opus player.


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## Lukas (Jul 5, 2021)

Studio One displays whatever it receives from the instrument (Opus). If you update the articulations in the instrument, it should report the new variations list to Studio One. Actually, you shouldn't need to "Reload Map from Instrument" manually at all.


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## mopsiflopsi (Jul 5, 2021)

Upon further testing, I'm noticing that even when I have those articulations showing up in S1 and on the Sound Variations panel under midi events, the instrument is not at all switching articulations. Hmm, something is messed up between Opus and S1, or there is a setting that I'm missing.

This setup below will play neither harmonics, nor legato, but the default Sus the whole way through.


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## AEF (Jul 5, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Same experience as me (was using Kontakt patches in my case). I think it is not SINE and just this S1 update on Mac.


Any fix you found to make things run more like 5.2 which for me was great and smooth.


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## mopsiflopsi (Jul 5, 2021)

Can someone confirm whether EW Opus keyswitches work for them with sound variations? 

For me S1 is not passing on any midi data for notes defined in the sound variations range: i.e. nothing is passed on to the instrument between C0-G0.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 5, 2021)

AEF said:


> Any fix you found to make things run more like 5.2 which for me was great and smooth.


Well, my "fix" is to continue to use Cubase. I suppose you could downgrade to 5.2 though. For me, I installed 5.3 to see if they had addressed any of the bugs / feature requests I had submitted for 5.2. Still waiting.


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## AEF (Jul 5, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Well, my "fix" is to continue to use Cubase. I suppose you could downgrade to 5.2 though. For me, I installed 5.3 to see if they had addressed any of the bugs / feature requests I had submitted for 5.2. Still waiting.


Yea that’s where I’m at. Continuing Logic and Nuendo.


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## Toecutter (Jul 5, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Well, my "fix" is to continue to use Cubase. I suppose you could downgrade to 5.2 though. For me, I installed 5.3 to see if they had addressed any of the bugs / feature requests I had submitted for 5.2. Still waiting.


What did you request / submitted and was any of it implemented in 5.3? I see you use Cubase too, I find the notation workflow atrocious and was recommended to look into Studio One or Reaper, ppl keep saying these DAWs are great for notation.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 5, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> What did you request / submitted and was any of it implemented in 5.3? I see you use Cubase too, I find the notation workflow atrocious and was recommended to look into Studio One or Reaper, ppl keep saying these DAWs are great for notation.


Studio One has much nicer notation workflow than Cubase, so if that is what you're after, makes sense to stick with S1. But I don't use the notation in Cubase (and if I did need notation, I would use Dorico which would whip the pants off of any DAW implementation). I submitted a number of bugs and also feature requests on Answers. I haven't run through all of them to see if they're implemented, but for the ones I did check, most didn't seem to be addressed. Not surprising given it takes time for those to make it into the roadmap. I did a lot of testing with 5.2 but I haven't been bothered to do that with 5.3 given the CPU issues on Mac. As much as I love S1, Cubase is an absolute beast, especially when handling large templates and generally for MIDI mockup work (probably why it is so popular!).

Reaper would make me want to kill myself and never make music again (I have tried it in the past).


----------



## ennbr (Jul 5, 2021)

mopsiflopsi said:


> For me S1 is not passing on any midi data for notes defined in the sound variations range: i.e. nothing is passed on to the instrument between C0-G0.


You are correct the Sound Vibration changes are not working in Studio One 5.3 with Opus so I loaded something from Nucleus and BBCSO just to test and that is working.

I then tested the same project with Studio One 5.2 Opus not working in that S1 version. Looks like the Opus engine is not working anywhere it does however in S1 v5.3 populate the articulations but there not functional.


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## mopsiflopsi (Jul 5, 2021)

ennbr said:


> You are correct the Sound Vibration changes are not working in Studio One 5.3 with Opus so I loaded something from Nucleus and BBCSO just to test and that is working.
> 
> I then tested the same project with Studio One 5.2 Opus not working in that S1 version. Looks like the Opus engine is not working anywhere it does however in S1 v5.3 populate the articulations but there not functional.


Thank you, it's good to know it's not just me. Where does one report this? To Presonus or EW?


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## ennbr (Jul 5, 2021)

I would report this to EastWest I'm running Opus version 1.0.3 it was working in 1.0.2 don't know how to get the previous version of Opus from EW.

Maybe if Lukas sees this he can contact the EW developers


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## mopsiflopsi (Jul 5, 2021)

Reported to both. Hopefully between them they sort it out quickly. It's a fantastic feature if only I could get it work.


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## ennbr (Jul 5, 2021)

I reported it to EW and then reloaded the Opus 1.0.2 plugin from TimeMachine retested to verify it's only in the current 1.0.3 version of Opus. Yes it's broken in the current version of course it no longer automatically populates the Articulations in the 1.0.2 version but at least it switches Articulations.


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## Lukas (Jul 6, 2021)

Please report this to EW.

Just to be sure: You use the VST3 version...?


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## ennbr (Jul 6, 2021)

VST2 version or has something changed again


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## ennbr (Jul 6, 2021)

Ok so I just checked and the VST3 v1.0.3 seems to be working. I wish EW would make up there minds up what version is being supporting Sound Variations or better yet support both VST2 and VST3 plugins

Almost funny my original template was setup for VST3 changed it over to VST2 to get the partial SV support guess it's back to VST3 again. Or wait until the weather outside changes and they go back to VST2.


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## Lukas (Jul 6, 2021)

ennbr said:


> VST2 version or has something changed again


I got this information from East West when my video was already online so I couldn't change this part anymore.

I agree this is really confusing. Please report that to EW. The most confusing part about it is that both VST2 and VST3 versions somehow send articulation maps to Studio One but only the VST3 version provides the "full" support.


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## ennbr (Jul 6, 2021)

Lukas said:


> I got this information from East West when my video was already online so I couldn't change this part anymore.
> 
> The confusing part of it is that both VST2 and VST3 versions somehow send articulation maps to Studio One but only the VST3 version provides the "full" support.


Thanks Lukas question is there a way in Studio One to remove all instruments I thought it was in the Mixer / Instruments section in the global area. If not could it be added really handy when upgrading VSTi's. 

When updating plugins I drag all of the instruments from my browser and drop them into an empty project, then remove the plugins, add the newer version and setup the selected instrument, finally drag everything back into the Browser


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## Crossroads (Jul 6, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> As much as I love S1, Cubase is an absolute beast, especially when handling large templates and generally for MIDI mockup work (probably why it is so popular!).


I'm actually gonna bite the bullet and spend a few days setting up a large disabled template inside Studio One. I'll keep people posted on my results. Reason for this is that I've found Studio One to be more CPU friendly than Cubase with the same instruments + send fx, and that is without dropout protection on but ASIO Guard to high inside Cubase.

I want to try this as I have a love/hate relationship with Cubase. It's so beastly and stable, yet sometimes so convoluted and ancient in it's workflow. Steinberg should really learn, for example, what modal windows are. Plus everything feels so rigid compared to Studio One, everything takes more clicks. And everything has it's own window. Markers, tempo track. There's so many parts feeling like the 90's. And that godawful automation system needs to overhauled completely ASAP. As do expression maps (whose window is not modal). Sound Variations just blows it straight out of the water.

If there's any feature request I have for Steinberg, is that they have to start simplifying the thing.

I love Cubase (you wouldn't know from reading that but I really do) but Studio One feels more like a modern DAW. And now I'm spoiled by it. I just hope it handles my template (fingers crossed). I'm on Windows, by the way.

Will post updates.


----------



## Lukas (Jul 6, 2021)

ennbr said:


> Thanks Lukas question is there a way in Studio One to remove all instruments I thought it was in the Mixer / Instruments section in the global area. If not could it be added really handy when upgrading VSTi's.


There's only a function "Remove unused instruments" in the mixer.

Usually, you shouldn't need to replace anything if you just update a plug-in. However, if you switch the VST2 / VST3 versions or a newer version of a plug-in is registered as another plug-in, you need to replace them manually.


----------



## ennbr (Jul 6, 2021)

Crossroads said:


> I'm actually gonna bite the bullet and spend a few days setting up a large disabled template inside Studio One. I'll keep people posted on my results. Reason for this is that I've found Studio One to be more CPU friendly than Cubase with the same instruments + send fx, and that is without dropout protection on but ASIO Guard to high inside Cubase.


Have you watched any of the videos that Lukas has put up on setting up a template in Studio One using the Browser as the template area this has zero cpu load. Once setup you just drag and drop your instrument into a project and go.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 6, 2021)

Crossroads said:


> I'm actually gonna bite the bullet and spend a few days setting up a large disabled template inside Studio One. I'll keep people posted on my results. Reason for this is that I've found Studio One to be more CPU friendly than Cubase with the same instruments + send fx, and that is without dropout protection on but ASIO Guard to high inside Cubase.
> 
> I want to try this as I have a love/hate relationship with Cubase. It's so beastly and stable, yet sometimes so convoluted and ancient in it's workflow. Steinberg should really learn, for example, what modal windows are. Plus everything feels so rigid compared to Studio One, everything takes more clicks. And everything has it's own window. Markers, tempo track. There's so many parts feeling like the 90's. And that godawful automation system needs to overhauled completely ASAP. As do expression maps (whose window is not modal). Sound Variations just blows it straight out of the water.
> 
> ...


That’s what I did with 5.2. Built out a 400 track template - and came to my conclusions. Good luck on your exploration.


----------



## Crossroads (Jul 6, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> That’s what I did with 5.2. Built out a 400 track template - and came to my conclusions. Good luck on your exploration.


So, was it really bad? What happened? You could save me days of work here


----------



## Toecutter (Jul 6, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Studio One has much nicer notation workflow than Cubase, so if that is what you're after, makes sense to stick with S1. But I don't use the notation in Cubase (and if I did need notation, I would use Dorico which would whip the pants off of any DAW implementation). I submitted a number of bugs and also feature requests on Answers. I haven't run through all of them to see if they're implemented, but for the ones I did check, most didn't seem to be addressed. Not surprising given it takes time for those to make it into the roadmap. I did a lot of testing with 5.2 but I haven't been bothered to do that with 5.3 given the CPU issues on Mac. As much as I love S1, Cubase is an absolute beast, especially when handling large templates and generally for MIDI mockup work (probably why it is so popular!).


Thanks for being so helpful! I'm using Dorico for parts but until it's deeply integrated with Cubase, it's another step in my work, the MIDI editing is too clunky to be used for complex mockups. I read in the Steinberg forum that Dorico 4 won't have any specific integration features, which is a total bummer and yet another missed opportunity considering how Musescore is just around the corner trying to do Dorico things better than Dorico (competition is awesome)

I'm liking the idea of Studio One the more I learn about it. The interface, optimizations and workflow feel like heaven! Do you or anyone else use Notion? Does it integrate seamlessly with Studio One in 5.3? Or is it still necessary to "sync" the apps manually? I would love to watch a video of someone working on a big orchestral track in Studio One and Notion at the same time.



ALittleNightMusic said:


> Reaper would make me want to kill myself and never make music again (I have tried it in the past).


That's been my experience with Reaper to a degree. It has its benefits for batch audio processing but every occasion I used it on a film or TV project (talking MIDI mockups ofc) it felt like an afterthought and not at all practical.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 6, 2021)

Crossroads said:


> So, was it really bad? What happened? You could save me days of work here


Nothing beats your own experience  It wasn't bad, but it definitely doesn't handle things as well as Cubase due to load times and how it does background saving. Not to mention delay compensation with external instruments when you have track delays set is totally broken (one of my bugs that I spent a long time debugging for Presonus).


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 6, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> I'm liking the idea of Studio One the more I learn about it. The interface, optimizations and workflow feel like heaven! Do you or anyone else use Notion? Does it integrate seamlessly with Studio One in 5.3? Or is it still necessary to "sync" the apps manually? I would love to watch a video of someone working on a big orchestral track in Studio One and Notion at the same time.


I have Notion, but I never use it (pretty sure I don't even have it installed). I don't use notation much and for the times I do, I haven't found anything I prefer to Dorico. However, Notion does have some integration with S1 - there's some videos out there about it. Far better integration than Dorico and Cubase have.


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## Lukas (Jul 6, 2021)

Crossroads said:


> So, was it really bad? What happened? You could save me days of work here


Just to save you these days of work (in case you're not happy with the result): Create your first 40 instrument tracks and then "Duplicate (complete)" them 10x to get 400 tracks. Although that makes it only a dummy template, you should get a pretty good impression of the save/load times (don't forget to try Options -> Locations -> Use cached plug-in data on save) and overall performance (show/hide tracks, mixing, editing etc.) with this track count on your system.


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## Crossroads (Jul 6, 2021)

Lukas said:


> Just to save you these days of work (in case you're not happy with the result): Create your first 40 instrument tracks and then "Duplicate (complete)" them 10x to get 400 tracks. Although that makes it only a dummy template, you should get a pretty good impression of the save/load times (don't forget to try Options -> Locations -> Use cached plug-in data on save) and overall performance (show/hide tracks, mixing, editing etc.) with this track count on your system.


Thanks for the suggestion, so I tried this (with the cached plug-in data on save on). Had 400 Kontakt instances, all disabled... and I got 18 second save times. Closing time was around 15 seconds. Opening time was 14 seconds. For big disabled templates, this is just too long. Because those times add up, especially that saving time. Also, show/hide starts lagging a lot. There's also a 23% performance hit on the CPU meter when in reality the only plugins non-disabled are some of Studio One's own metering plugins on the Master and Sonarworks on the listen bus.

I would go drag and drop from the browser, but I personally despise that workflow. It takes me out of my flow, or, as Alex Pfeffer put it in one of his videos, it doesn't feel like ''home''. Sorry to sound cheesy.

I suppose in order to achieve what Cubase does when it's saving would require quite an extensive rewrite of the way Studio One handles disabled things? Correct me if I'm wrong though, I'm no expert on these matters.

Still, thanks for the help @Lukas


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 6, 2021)

Crossroads said:


> Thanks for the suggestion, so I tried this (with the cached plug-in data on save on). Had 400 Kontakt instances, all disabled... and I got 18 second save times. Closing time was around 15 seconds. Opening time was 14 seconds. For big disabled templates, this is just too long. Because those times add up, especially that saving time. Also, show/hide starts lagging a lot. There's also a 23% performance hit on the CPU meter when in reality the only plugins non-disabled are some of Studio One's own metering plugins on the Master and Sonarworks on the listen bus.
> 
> I would go drag and drop from the browser, but I personally despise that workflow. It takes me out of my flow, or, as Alex Pfeffer put it in one of his videos, it doesn't feel like ''home''. Sorry to sound cheesy.
> 
> ...


And now you have your own experience 😉 If you built out a real template you would have also noticed a number of bugs that crop up when you have a lot of tracks. I hope Presonus fixes those along with optimizing for large track counts.


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## InLight-Tone (Jul 6, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> And now you have your own experience 😉 If you built out a real template you would have also noticed a number of bugs that crop up when you have a lot of tracks. I hope Presonus fixes those along with optimizing for large track counts.


My experience as well. Cubase can handle large track counts with ease. That and the Visibility features keep me here. S1 just falls apart when you get past a few hundred...


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## AEF (Jul 6, 2021)

By globally disabling all AU from the advance prefs, I seem to be getting snappy performance on OSX.


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## MarcusD (Jul 7, 2021)

Occasionally having an issue with the new Sound Variations "Channel Change" feature not working correctly when using Kontakt 6 - MacBook Air M1, macOS Big Sur.

Most of the time it works fine triggering the MIDI channel changes between patches loaded in Kontakt. However, there are occasions when the channel changes are not working, and Studio One does not trigger the channel changes, despite things being setup correctly.

Sometimes If I remove the patches and load in different patches, the triggers start working magically. Then I'd need to remove said patches and reload the original ones I wanted to work with, and then works fine.

Another problem - after setting up a template and saving, then re-opening the project (where all the sound variations worked before) I run into back into the sample problem, where things don't trigger. @Lukas


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## Lukas (Jul 7, 2021)

Please post a repro. With this description, it is still unclear what the exact issue is and if it's not a Kontakt 6 problem.


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## AEF (Jul 7, 2021)

I highly recommend if you are experiencing CPU issues or weird behavior on a Mac after the 5.3 update to disable AU plugins. Completely back to normal here and working GREAT after having done that.


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## Lukas (Jul 7, 2021)

You shouldn't use AU plug-ins in Studio One anyway. It's the Logic format. Not all developer test their plug-ins in other DAWs than Logic.


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## EgM (Jul 7, 2021)

Lukas said:


> You shouldn't use AU plug-ins in Studio One anyway. It's the Logic format. Not all developer test their plug-ins in other DAWs than Logic.


That, and if you're not using AU plug-ins the project opens perfectly in Windows as well


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 7, 2021)

AEF said:


> By globally disabling all AU from the advance prefs, I seem to be getting snappy performance on OSX.


Interesting - I already had that in place when I tried 5.3. Glad it worked for you though.


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## lucor (Jul 10, 2021)

Is there any way to make Studio One remember the track pre-delay when using Musicloops for a Modular Template?
I'm really enjoying myself in S1 at the moment, to an extent that might finally make me leave Cubase, but it not remembering the Predelays is unfortunately a real dealbreaker for my workflow.
(I know it works with 'Import Song Data', but that comes with its own set of problems that I don't really want to deal with.)


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## Lukas (Jul 10, 2021)

It's not possible out of the box. Let me investigate if this could be done with scripting.


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## Trash Panda (Jul 12, 2021)

@Lukas is there a command that can Be used to change a MIDI CC curve value and curve type? I haven’t found anything indicating as much in the manual or Googleverse. Something like being able to pop up the curve edit box to put in the numerical value and change curve type between exponential and S-curve without the mouse clicks.


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## EgM (Jul 12, 2021)

Tried something using EastWest Play, simple Sound variations sent to CH1, CH2, CH3 and so on, switches articulations and works ok!

But how are we supposed to manage CC11/Expression across the articulations? Like from Legato to Sus for instance?

In this screenshot, Leg Slur Ni respects the expression curve since it's CH1, but once it changes to Sus at CH5, Expression gets ignored... I hope there's a checkbox I forgot to tick because this is going to be a pain :( 






Sound Variations screen:


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## muziksculp (Jul 12, 2021)

Hi,

It seems like it is not possible to assign the Sound-Variation Input data to anything other than a Midi Note, is this correct ? If so, would it be possible for future updates of S1Pro 5 to allow for more options to be assigned to the Input of the Sound-Variation field. (i.e. Program Change, or CC# , ..etc. ) ?

I know it is possible to assign MIDI-CH, or CC# Data to the Activation Sequence. But this is not possible for the Input data, which is restricted to Midi Notes. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## lucor (Jul 13, 2021)

Lukas said:


> It's not possible out of the box. Let me investigate if this could be done with scripting.


Any luck? 

BTW another cool thing I noticed is that the Sound Variation editor window will switch to the track you select in the arrangement window. So in theory, no more need for any fancy and complicated 3rd party articulation controllers like Lemur (you could even throw the window on a touchscreen monitor and switch articulations that way).

Presonus should transform the Sound Variation window into a full-on VI control station, similar to Patchboard or custom Lemur apps, where in addition to the articulation switching you can also:

color the key ranges on the bottom keyboard to immediately know how those percussion patches are mapped (probably my favorite feature of Patchboard, which unfortunately doesn't work with S1 :( )
create custom Midi faders and button configurations for each track, to control mic positions, vibrato etc...
Now THAT would be awesome.


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## Lukas (Jul 13, 2021)

EgM said:


> Tried something using EastWest Play, simple Sound variations sent to CH1, CH2, CH3 and so on, switches articulations and works ok!
> 
> But how are we supposed to manage CC11/Expression across the articulations? Like from Legato to Sus for instance?
> 
> In this screenshot, Leg Slur Ni respects the expression curve since it's CH1, but once it changes to Sus at CH5, Expression gets ignored... I hope there's a checkbox I forgot to tick because this is going to be a pain :(


it's a known issue in combination with VST3 instruments as automation in VST3 works a bit differently. You will see that when using VST2 instruments, CC data is sent to the correct MIDI channel. Of course, it's not a real solution to work with VST2 instruments only (especially if you want to use Opus + Sound Variations) so this is going to be fixed in one of the next maintenance updates.


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## mussnig (Jul 13, 2021)

lucor said:


> Is there any way to make Studio One remember the track pre-delay when using Musicloops for a Modular Template?
> I'm really enjoying myself in S1 at the moment, to an extent that might finally make me leave Cubase, but it not remembering the Predelays is unfortunately a real dealbreaker for my workflow.
> (I know it works with 'Import Song Data', but that comes with its own set of problems that I don't really want to deal with.)



Really? This doesn't work? It's the same in Ableton Live and it really bothered me. Downloaded Studio One yesterday to test it and see if I can work with it but I thought it would for sure be able to do this. Guess I will have to live with it.

Is it at least possible to recall notes that were saved with a track? I used this as a workaround in Ableton ...

Edit: I'm not asking because I'm lazy but I am on a day long train journey. So can't test it myself right now ...


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## lucor (Jul 13, 2021)

mussnig said:


> Really? This doesn't work? It's the same in Ableton Live and it really bothered me. Downloaded Studio One yesterday to test it and see if I can work with it but I thought it would for sure be able to do this. Guess I will have to live with it.
> 
> Is it at least possible to recall notes that were saved with a track? I used this as a workaround in Ableton ...
> 
> Edit: I'm not asking because I'm lazy but I am on a day long train journey. So can't test it myself right now ...


Nope, unfortunately not. Writing it into the Track Notes was also my first thought, but that doesn't get saved with the Musicloop either. Neither do the Track Color, any transpositions or the Volume of the track, which I find especially strange. So if you want to save your Musicloops balanced to each other, or have a custom multi-instrument with multiple balanced-out instruments, you need to use a gain plugin to save the volume settings.
Musicloops are incredibly cool, but could use quite a bit of work. Or what I would prefer is that Presonus introduces actual proper Track Templates, which save _everything, _but also have the ability to attach a short audio preview to them.

Regarding the Track Delay, for now my workaround would be to write the Delay times into the name of the musicloops themselves, though that is of course far from ideal.


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## mussnig (Jul 13, 2021)

I guess it also doesn't work if you create an Instrument+FX preset, right? Would love to have some drag & drop database of my instruments that restores all the parameters one would need ...


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## lucor (Jul 13, 2021)

mussnig said:


> I guess it also doesn't work if you create an Instrument+FX preset, right? Would love to have some drag & drop database of my instruments that restores all the parameters one would need ...


Just did a quick test, Instrument+FX presets at least save the Volume information. But Track Delay, Track Color, Track Transposition and Track Notes are also missing. Plus you lose the Audio Preview, which to me is the coolest thing ever.


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## mussnig (Jul 13, 2021)

lucor said:


> Just did a quick test, Instrument+FX presets at least save the Volume information. But Track Delay, Track Color, Track Transposition and Track Notes are also missing. Plus you lose the Audio Preview, which to me is the coolest thing ever.


Hmmm. Apart from the track delay, even Ableton Live (which I've been using for the past two years) can save all these parameters (including audio preview) if you just drag and drop a track to the browser.

I've been heavily looking into Cubase and Studio One for the past days because I have the feeling that I hit a wall with Ableton when it comes to certain things - at times I really feel restricted by it. In particular working with video (I am not asking for a lot here. Even general video playback in Ableton has been extremely buggy for me and required a lot of troubleshooting) and articulation management (there are some cool M4L devices though but if you start using M4L on every track it starts to unnecessarily slow down your system).

So far I like Studio One and I can tell that I really would like to spend more time with it (didn't get these "vibes" with Cubase) and I am tempted to buy it. In particular because I get EDU discount. Still, the more time I spend with other DAWs the more I learn to appreciate certain things in Ableton Live ...


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 13, 2021)

mussnig said:


> Hmmm. Apart from the track delay, even Ableton Live (which I've been using for the past two years) can save all these parameters (including audio preview) if you just drag and drop a track to the browser.
> 
> I've been heavily looking into Cubase and Studio One for the past days because I have the feeling that I hit a wall with Ableton when it comes to certain things - at times I really feel restricted by it. In particular working with video (I am not asking for a lot here. Even general video playback in Ableton has been extremely buggy for me and required a lot of troubleshooting) and articulation management (there are some cool M4L devices though but if you start using M4L on every track it starts to unnecessarily slow down your system).
> 
> So far I like Studio One and I can tell that I really would like to spend more time with it (didn't get these "vibes" with Cubase) and I am tempted to buy it. In particular because I get EDU discount. Still, the more time I spend with other DAWs the more I learn to appreciate certain things in Ableton Live ...


What daw do you use right now?


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## mussnig (Jul 13, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> What daw do you use right now?



I still use Ableton Live. It's just that in the past I've always had the impression that other DAWs are so much more powerful but now I realize that they have other shortcomings in areas which I took for granted with Live. I was probably expecting too much 😁

Still, I guess I will switch to Studio One. Of all the DAWs I have looked at (for Windows, that is), Sound Variations are for me personally the best thought out method to manage articulations. And the combination with Studio One Remote (which I haven't tested yet, though) seems very powerful and promising.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 13, 2021)

mussnig said:


> I still use Ableton Live. It's just that in the past I've always had the impression that other DAWs are so much more powerful but now I realize that they have other shortcomings in areas which I took for granted with Live. I was probably expecting too much 😁
> 
> Still, I guess I will switch to Studio One. Of all the DAWs I have looked at (for Windows, that is), Sound Variations are for me personally the best thought out method to manage articulations. And the combination with Studio One Remote (which I haven't tested yet, though) seems very powerful and promising.


Ableton is certainly special in terms of workflow (though in recent years, Bitwig, DP, and Logic have tried to adopt some of that - and perhaps even S1 with their Shows page evolution). Arn Anderson uses Ableton now for all his orchestral / cinematic work. Comes down to what you know and work fast in. But there are features in other DAWs that do make working with orchestral libraries or writing orchestral music in certain ways or scoring to picture potentially easier than what you can do in Live. There’s a reason why a large majority of working media composers for example use Logic and Cubase. Only you can decide if those are important to you though


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## EgM (Jul 13, 2021)

Lukas said:


> it's a known issue in combination with VST3 instruments as automation in VST3 works a bit differently. You will see that when using VST2 instruments, CC data is sent to the correct MIDI channel. Of course, it's not a real solution to work with VST2 instruments only (especially if you want to use Opus + Sound Variations) so this is going to be fixed in one of the next maintenance updates.


Never thought of using VST2… haha

Thanks so much @Lukas!


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## mussnig (Jul 13, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Ableton is certainly special in terms of workflow (though in recent years, Bitwig, DP, and Logic have tried to adopt some of that - and perhaps even S1 with their Shows page evolution). Arn Anderson uses Ableton now for all his orchestral / cinematic work. Comes down to what you know and work fast in. But there are features in other DAWs that do make working with orchestral libraries or writing orchestral music in certain ways or scoring to picture potentially easier than what you can do in Live. There’s a reason why a large majority of working media composers for example use Logic and Cubase. Only you can decide if those are important to you though


I actually never use Session View in Ableton and just use the normal Arrangement View. So the workflow is not that much different from other DAWs for me. But I've really come to appreciate certain things like racks (in particular drum racks) and macros, the visual representation of Ableton's stock effects in the GUI, the way automation and modulation work together (apart from the clunky way to activate Envelope View), the fact that grouping tracks creates a bus, etc.
But more and more often I find myself looking/wanting for some "Advanced Settings" menu that sadly doesn't exist.

But I was really quickly equally impressed by certain little details in Studio One, e.g., representing velocity as a bar in the note (I don't know though if this is available in other DAWs as well).


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## InLight-Tone (Jul 13, 2021)

mussnig said:


> I still use Ableton Live. It's just that in the past I've always had the impression that other DAWs are so much more powerful but now I realize that they have other shortcomings in areas which I took for granted with Live. I was probably expecting too much 😁


Lot's O wisdom right there ^^^


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## lucor (Jul 14, 2021)

Sound Variations are getting better and better, but I wish they would more function like 'Attributes' in Cubase, which are directly attached to the notes themselves. That way you can move notes around without ever worrying about their assigned articulation.
The new 'Musical Symbols' are exactly what I mean, but I wish you'd see the actual Sound Variations there and not these generic 'Tenuto, Sforzando, Staccatissimo' articulations, where you have now clue what's what.

BTW when you activate "Select Part Automation with Notes" in the Midi Editor and have the 'Sound Variations' tab in the bottom automation lane open, the Sound Variations will move with the notes, which is a very helpful compromise for now. But when another Tab, e.g. Velocity, is shown, the Sound Variations _won't_ move with the notes.
Is this a bug, or intended behavior?


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## A.G (Jul 14, 2021)

Hi Guys,

I had some time to put my hands on S1 Sound Variations - congratulations Presonus!

I cound not find a way to manage the Sound Variation presets via the computer Finder (Mac in my case). It only works when I use the Sound Variation editor management.

My question is: How do you manage the SV presets via the computer browsers?
For example, if a create an AG folder + SV presets in: User/Documents/Studio One/Presets/User Presets/Key Switches and copy that AG folder (via the Mac Finder) to a USB stick and try to move the AG presets to another machine: User/Documents/Studio One/Presets/User Presets/Key Switches then the 2nd machine (S1) editor cannot see the imported SV (respectively the AG folder and the SV presets).

Any help about SV importing is highly appreciated, thanks!


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## ennbr (Jul 14, 2021)

A.G said:


> Any help about SV importing is highly appreciated, thanks!


After you copy the files to the second computer you need to do a refresh from the Studio One Browser tab.


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## Lukas (Jul 14, 2021)

A.G said:


> I cound not find a way to manage the Sound Variation presets via the computer Finder (Mac in my case). It only works when I use the Sound Variation editor management.


You need to "Re-Index Presets" on the home tab of the Studio One Browser.


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## Trash Panda (Jul 14, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> @Lukas is there a command that can Be used to change a MIDI CC curve value and curve type? I haven’t found anything indicating as much in the manual or Googleverse. Something like being able to pop up the curve edit box to put in the numerical value and change curve type between exponential and S-curve without the mouse clicks.


@Lukas not sure if you saw this or not.


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## A.G (Jul 14, 2021)

ennbr said:


> After you copy the files to the second computer you need to do a refresh from the Studio One Browser tab.


Thanks! It works but the refresh shows my custom presets only in the S1 browser so I have to drag and drop a preset onto the SV editor. The refresh does not re-index the SV editor presets path.


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## A.G (Jul 14, 2021)

Lukas said:


> You need to "Re-Index Presets" on the home tab of the Studio One Browser.


Thanks for the input! It works as expected however I think it is a sort of complicated workaround.
I guess the SV Editor preset intexes are stored into a special document/file - right? This could be the reason we need to re-index the presets manually (I'll be happy to know which is this indexing file and where is it)?

I'm asking cause we at Audio Grocery prepare some new products powered by Mac & Windows installers. The installers will install various stuff to different computer and DAW paths. For example, the Logic Articulation Sets are installed in the correspondent Logic Art path and no manual re-indexing is needed. That means we have to publish extra instructions for the S1 users to let them know how to re-index the newly installed library.

I hope that Presonus will improve the SV importing soon.


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## mussnig (Jul 15, 2021)

Does anybody know if it is possible to automate velocity (or velocity offset, to be more precise) in Studio One?
E.g. I have some shared duplicates of a MIDI event and want to gradually increase the velocity over time. Is there a way to achieve this?
Same question with transpose btw.

These things are of course available via the inspector but I can't find a way to automate them.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 15, 2021)

Not sure if people have experienced this but mocking up a piece with CSS right now in S1 and I have noticed the MIDI timing can skew in different ways on playback. One playback, things are fine. The next (nothing changed), stuff is misaligned. The next, stuff is misaligned in a different way. The next, things are fine again. Very unstable.


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## lucor (Jul 15, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Not sure if people have experienced this but mocking up a piece with CSS right now in S1 and I have noticed the MIDI timing can skew in different ways on playback. One playback, things are fine. The next (nothing changed), stuff is misaligned. The next, stuff is misaligned in a different way. The next, things are fine again. Very unstable.


I've experienced that as well, unfortunately. All of the sudden things go completely out of whack.

I wonder if it's related to this issue they had with negative track delays, even though it was supposed to be fixed in a previous update:


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## mussnig (Jul 15, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Not sure if people have experienced this but mocking up a piece with CSS right now in S1 and I have noticed the MIDI timing can skew in different ways on playback. One playback, things are fine. The next (nothing changed), stuff is misaligned. The next, stuff is misaligned in a different way. The next, things are fine again. Very unstable.


Oh no. I've heard about this but thought that this has been fixed. I was just about to buy Studio One - it has really convinced me so far. I've been testing it for a few days now but I didn't try to really write some music with it yet.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 15, 2021)

lucor said:


> I've experienced that as well, unfortunately. All of the sudden things go completely out of whack.
> 
> I wonder if it's related to this issue they had with negative track delays, even though it was supposed to be fixed in a previous update:



With CSS, I’m using negative track delays so that might be it. I use the CSS KSP delay panel since it’s the only way to do things in S1 because there’s no easy way to nudge notes by specific milliseconds.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 15, 2021)

mussnig said:


> Oh no. I've heard about this but thought that this has been fixed. I was just about to buy Studio One - it has really convinced me so far. I've been testing it for a few days now but I didn't try to really write some music with it yet.


I would encourage you to try and write music in it before you buy 

This piece I’m doing requires tight timing since it is quite rhythmic. I probably have to abandon my S1 test and go back to Cubase or Logic. Presonus also still hasn’t fixed a number of bugs I reported with 5.2 or feature requests. Not ready for prime time IMO.


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## Trash Panda (Jul 15, 2021)

There is still an issue with negative track delays, but it’s no longer a uniform issue. Sometimes tracks will play in time as expected, but once you exceed 20-25 tracks with negative delay, one or two tracks will start getting wonky with their timing.


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## Lukas (Jul 15, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> @Lukas is there a command that can Be used to change a MIDI CC curve value and curve type? I haven’t found anything indicating as much in the manual or Googleverse. Something like being able to pop up the curve edit box to put in the numerical value and change curve type between exponential and S-curve without the mouse clicks.


There's no such command currently.



ALittleNightMusic said:


> Not sure if people have experienced this but mocking up a piece with CSS right now in S1 and I have noticed the MIDI timing can skew in different ways on playback. One playback, things are fine. The next (nothing changed), stuff is misaligned. The next, stuff is misaligned in a different way. The next, things are fine again. Very unstable.


I haven't experienced any timing anomalies since the negative track delay issue has been fixed in 5.0.1 and I use it a lot. Also, Studio One does not care if the instrument is CSS or any other Kontakt library or VSTi instrument. So there need to be some other aspects involved (latency compensation, KSP multi scripts, dropout protection...?). Could you check if this also happens a) without the multi script, b) without negative track delay? And could you maybe make a video so that we can see what actually happens?



ALittleNightMusic said:


> Presonus also still hasn’t fixed a number of bugs I reported with 5.2 or feature requests. Not ready for prime time IMO.


Frankly, many professional composers use it for years and don't encounter any problems. Which (serious) bugs are those?


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## lucor (Jul 15, 2021)

Has anyone tried Alex's solution from the video I linked above, using the 'MinusDelay' plugin? How reliable is it?
If it works well it might give that a try, it would also have the added benefit that this way Track Delays would be saved with Musicloops.


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## mussnig (Jul 15, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> There is still an issue with negative track delays, but it’s no longer a uniform issue. Sometimes tracks will play in time as expected, but once you exceed 20-25 tracks with negative delay, one or two tracks will start getting wonky with their timing.


Thanks for pointing this out! I am constantly using negative delays on nearly all of my tracks, so this is would really be a problem for me. I will make some specific tests with the trial to see for myself.

Maybe I will stick with Ableton Live after all ...


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## Lukas (Jul 15, 2021)

mussnig said:


> Oh no. I've heard about this but thought that this has been fixed. I was just about to buy Studio One - it has really convinced me so far. I've been testing it for a few days now but I didn't try to really write some music with it yet.


Always make a real project first


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## mussnig (Jul 15, 2021)

Lukas said:


> Always make a real project first


The thing is that I've got at most a few hours per week to really sit at my computer and do music - sometimes zero. So together with the fact that I still need to learn to find my way around in Studio One, I'm not sure that I would have made a test project within the trial period which contains more than 10-20 tracks. So if what @Trash Panda reports is true, I would have probably only run into these issues only after buying (e.g. once I find the time to do something larger with Studio One).


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## easyrider (Jul 15, 2021)

mussnig said:


> The thing is that I've got at most a few hours per week to really sit at my computer and do music - sometimes zero. So together with the fact that I still need to learn to find my way around in Studio One, I'm not sure that I would have made a test project within the trial period which contains more than 10-20 tracks. So if what @Trash Panda reports is true, I would have probably only run into these issues only after buying (e.g. once I find the time to do something larger with Studio One).


A couple of months of Sphere?


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## mussnig (Jul 15, 2021)

easyrider said:


> A couple of months of Sphere?


Good idea, thanks!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 15, 2021)

Lukas said:


> There's no such command currently.
> 
> 
> I haven't experienced any timing anomalies since the negative track delay issue has been fixed in 5.0.1 and I use it a lot. Also, Studio One does not care if the instrument is CSS or any other Kontakt library or VSTi instrument. So there need to be some other aspects involved (latency compensation, KSP multi scripts, dropout protection...?). Could you check if this also happens a) without the multi script, b) without negative track delay? And could you maybe make a video so that we can see what actually happens?
> ...


Are you on Mac? As many other users here have stated just in the past couple of hours, the MIDI timing is unstable. I don't have time to invest in debugging in depth for Presonus but it seems to happen to many users. As for serious bugs, I filed a number that were accepted for 5.2 - and not for uncommon use cases. For example, external synths, which are a staple of professional composers, are not properly delay compensated when using negative track delays - which is an absolute deal breaker for anybody that is using external synths (aka pretty much all professional composers doing media / game composition). I'm not sure I believe that many professional composers are using S1 and not running into the same bugs or issues - especially ones that are 100% reproducible and common to composing workflows / common sample libraries. Whether they are reporting it or those reports are being effectively triaged is a separate matter though.


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## EgM (Jul 15, 2021)

Anyone experiencing negative delay timing problems, do you have Dropout protection enabled? I've always had it turned off (minimum) because it caused a lot of problems for me.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 15, 2021)

EgM said:


> Anyone experiencing negative delay timing problems, do you have Dropout protection enabled? I've always had it turned off (minimum) because it caused a lot of problems for me.


I also have left it at minimum. Still get the MIDI playback instability.


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## EgM (Jul 15, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I also have left it at minimum. Still get the MIDI playback instability.


Mac or Windows?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 15, 2021)

EgM said:


> Mac or Windows?


Mac.


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## EgM (Jul 15, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Mac.


Good to know, Thanks! I'm wondering if most of these problems occur only for Mac users... I'm on Windows and those issues were fixed for me in the early 5.x versions


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## Trash Panda (Jul 15, 2021)

Ok, so the music symbol integration is freaking cool. @Lukas is there a way to see what the precise effects of each symbol that has a process check box is doing?

The tool tip has text like “increase velocity + shorten note” on a staccato with accent, but not a firm definition on how much the velocity is being increased or the note is being shortened.


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## muziksculp (Jul 15, 2021)

Hi,

Question regarding using Sound-Variations when using VSL Synchron Libraries on a Slave Machine, via VE-Pro. 

So, when using any VSL Synchron Library inside Studio One Pro 5.3, the articulations are reflected on both sides automatically, but when using it on an external PC/Slave machine, this is not the case, so what's the best way to deal with this ? Just create sound-variations for the library manually ? or is there a faster/better method to do this ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## EgM (Jul 15, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Question regarding using Sound-Variations when using VSL Synchron Libraries on a Slave Machine, via VE-Pro.
> 
> ...


You could open it locally in Studio One, save the preset then recall that preset once you have it loaded within VEP


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## muziksculp (Jul 15, 2021)

EgM said:


> You could open it locally in Studio One, save the preset then recall that preset once you have it loaded within VEP


Does loading the library locally mean I have to first install the full library, with the samples on my Studio One PC ?

I wish VSL can update VE-Pro to offer bi-directional Communication for Sound-Variations, just like when using it inside S1Pro.


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## EgM (Jul 15, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Does loading the library locally mean I have to first install the full library, with the samples on my Studio One PC ?


Or just install Studio One on the slave to load Synchron, store the presets then copy those presets to the master pc?


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## muziksculp (Jul 15, 2021)

EgM said:


> Or just install Studio One on the slave to load Synchron, store the presets then copy those presets to the master pc?


Yes, that's another option, but it also means that I will use up an additional authorization for S1Pro. 

I think the best option would be for VSL to offer a bi-directional communication of Sound-Variations when using VE-Pro 7. Also if I create custom articulation trees in Synchron Player, I won't have to re-create sound-variations for them. But as is I still have to reflect things manually. 

Thanks.


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## wcreed51 (Jul 15, 2021)

VEP hasn't been updated for over a year, so I expect they're working on this and will happen soon


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## Lukas (Jul 15, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Ok, so the music symbol integration is freaking cool. @Lukas is there a way to see what the precise effects of each symbol that has a process check box is doing?
> 
> The tool tip has text like “increase velocity + shorten note” on a staccato with accent, but not a firm definition on how much the velocity is being increased or the note is being shortened.


Not as far as I know. I think these effects are hardcoded except the ones that can be tweaked in the dialogue (for example the dynamics table where you can set custom velocity values).



muziksculp said:


> I think the best option would be for VSL to offer a bi-directional communication of Sound-Variations when using VE-Pro 7. Also if I create custom articulation trees in Synchron Player, I won't have to re-create sound-variations for them. But as is I still have to reflect things manually.


VE Pro is made by the same people that made Synchron Player & Sound Variations. I'm sure this is just a matter of time  For now, there's only the workarounds @EgM mentioned.


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## Toecutter (Jul 15, 2021)

Lukas said:


> VE Pro is made by the same people that made Synchron Player & Sound Variations.


I didn't know that (SV was done by the same team that did Vepro) cool


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## Lukas (Jul 15, 2021)

What I meant is that the Sound Variation API was developed by PreSonus in cooperation with VSL (that's why VSL Synchron Player was the first instrument offering special support for Sound Variations).


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## lucor (Jul 15, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Ok, so the music symbol integration is freaking cool. @Lukas is there a way to see what the precise effects of each symbol that has a process check box is doing?
> 
> The tool tip has text like “increase velocity + shorten note” on a staccato with accent, but not a firm definition on how much the velocity is being increased or the note is being shortened.


I don't quite understand the purpose of Musical Symbols yet (for normal Midi work). It's nice if you want to compose in the notation editor and assign articulations in the 'traditional' way, but for working in the Piano Roll I find it pretty useless in the way it's working currently.
First off, there's only a limited amount of these pre-determined articulations available. Which one do you use to assign, for example, a crescendo or more esoteric articulations from Spitfire LCO Strings?
Also, if you open the Musical Symbol menu, you just get this big list of articulations without knowing which one has even assigned a Sound Variation to it.
Maybe I'm missing something?

I'd much rather have the ability to assign normal Sound Variations in the same way, essentially making Sound Variations act like Attributes in Cubase (which most people do prefer anyway). See the picture:


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## Trash Panda (Jul 15, 2021)

lucor said:


> I don't quite understand the purpose of Musical Symbols yet (for normal Midi work). It's nice if you want to compose in the notation editor and assign articulations in the 'traditional' way, but for working in the Piano Roll I find it pretty useless in the way it's working currently.
> First off, there's only a limited amount of these pre-determined articulations available. Which one do you use to assign, for example, a crescendo or more esoteric articulations from Spitfire LCO Strings?
> Also, if you open the Musical Symbol menu, you just get this big list of articulations without knowing which one has even assigned a Sound Variation to it.
> Maybe I'm missing something?
> ...


I don’t get the issue. You can assign music symbols to sound variations or just use the sound variation drop down. Is it because the sound variations don’t “stick” to the notes the way the symbols do?


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## lucor (Jul 15, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Is it because the sound variations don’t “stick” to the notes the way the symbols do?


Exactly. Once you nudge a note to the left to adjust the timing, it will lose it's assigned articulation unless you also move the Sound Variation, which is extremely cumbersome. And since basically all orchestral sample libraries have varying attack times for each articulation, there usually is A LOT of nudging and moving around of notes involved.
Having the SV stick to the notes is the far superior way of working in my opinion. Can't think of any benefits to the way things are right now.


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## lucor (Jul 15, 2021)

BTW I do wanna mention that, even though I'm complaining a lot around here, I'm REALLY enjoying myself in S1 at the moment. I will definitely bench Cubase for the next couple of months and give Studio One a real chance, and I think it's highly likely that I will switch over for good after that.


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## Crossroads (Jul 16, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I also have left it at minimum. Still get the MIDI playback instability.


Always had this. Also, quantize was pretty wonky.

I akways felt that Studio One was "off" in the midi timing department, even after doing the midi loopback test.

It was workable, but highly annoying. Thing is, my timing on a keyboard is impeccable with quantize off. I can almost lay down every note right on the beat. Then input quantize would throw this off, very annoying.

You could say then to just not quantize, but that's not the point. Sometimes you want things hard quantized no matter how good your timing is.

Apparently it was fixed, and there was indeed an improvement, but it still didn't feel completely right. I tested this phenomenon over and over with different DAWs just to make sure I wasn't making stuff up.

Was very surprised to find out it depends from DAW to DAW. I always find Reason the tightest, with Cubase in a second position. Might be different depending on how well you play.

@Lukas you are a piano player yourself, loads better than I am, you never experienced this?


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## easyrider (Jul 16, 2021)

I’m noticing something weird in 5.3

When playing midi back on say 5 tracks and then skip back earlier while playing the midi goes out of time….

if I skip back to the start and play it’s in time….skip back say 2 bars the playback is slightly out of sync….

any ideas?


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## ennbr (Jul 16, 2021)

easyrider said:


> When playing midi back on say 5 tracks and then skip back earlier while playing the midi goes out of time….


Yes I've seen the same thing twice now tracks were not in sync until I started from the beginning of the song after going back to zero it was ok again


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## easyrider (Jul 16, 2021)

ennbr said:


> Yes I've seen the same thing twice now tracks were not in sync until I started from the beginning of the song after going back to zero it was ok again


Well this needs to be fixed ASAP…I thought i was going mad!

I haven’t changed any settings….

@Lukas is there a tick box I should enable or disable?


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## Lukas (Jul 16, 2021)

Crossroads said:


> @Lukas you are a piano player yourself, loads better than I am, you never experienced this?


Yes and I'm actually very picky about timing. I have not experienced any timing issues in a 5.x version. If I had seen anything like that, you can be sure it would have been fixed before the version was released.

I am also not aware of any similar cases so far. I therefore assume that this is an edge case with a very specific configuration (Low Latency Monitoring, Listen Bus, Dropout Protection, many instrument tracks). Tech support is also not aware of any increased reports recently.

Many bugs also turn out to be user errors - in this case, "instrument tracks not in sync" sounds rather not like user error, of course.

The good thing is: If you can reproduce the problem, it is as good as fixed. But that also means: As long as you can't reproduce the problem, nobody can fix it. If you are experiencing these problems, please create a support ticket and provide as much detailed info as possible to help reproduce the problem (OS, song setup, dropout protection setting).


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## Oxytoxine (Jul 16, 2021)

I experience the following bug / weird behaviour, which might be related to the out of sync-discussion:
If I set a precount of 1 bar or whatever, then press record - sometimes (not consistently, I have not found a way to always reproduce it) the recording starts a) wirhout a count-in and b) with a very noticeable delay / "lagginess".
If I then abort and repress "record", this behaviour goes away. This however intereferes badly with a fast and intuitive recording workflow.
Disclaimer: I am very new to Studio One (testing the demo for a few days - otherwise, I like it a lot!) and it may well be that I do not have set all settings correctly.

Re the midi timing / jitter: https://www.admiralbumblebee.com/music/2020/07/11/daw-v-daw-s1-fail.html reports that Studio One had severe midi input jitter problems, but if I understood correctly, this should have been fixed since V5.1 - just bringing it up because some of you brought midi timing up and this might be somehow relevant?

Otherwise, I like sound variations and also the notation view much better than the equivalents in Cubsse and will probably switch - S1 seems to be a great DAW!


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## welltempered (Jul 16, 2021)

lucor said:


> Exactly. Once you nudge a note to the left to adjust the timing, it will lose it's assigned articulation unless you also move the Sound Variation, which is extremely cumbersome. And since basically all orchestral sample libraries have varying attack times for each articulation, there usually is A LOT of nudging and moving around of notes involved.
> Having the SV stick to the notes is the far superior way of working in my opinion. Can't think of any benefits to the way things are right now.


First of all, I love the pace of development in Studio One’s SVs (Sound Variations). Particularly for me VSL’s API implementation on SVs: I use primarily VSL libraries, so I decided to use S1 instead of Logic because of this. Many compliments to @Lukas and others in S1 for all the progress. 

That being said, getting SVs to ‘stick’ to the notes would be a real game changer, IMO more so than the current improvement with Symbols. Why?

As @lucor mentioned, it’s a workflow killer when you move/nudge notes and the SVs don’t move with them
And for those who work in notation, like me:

When I need to copy and paste a few bars of all the strings as an example, I have to go separately to each of the 5 strings sections in the MIDI and copy/paste, in order for the SVs to be copied as well. Would be so much easier to be able to copy and paste all the strings in one go from the Score View if the SVs could stick to the notes.
Using symbols don’t help much with libraries like VSL that have so many sub-options - there are 6 different staccatos in Synchron Strings Pro, not to mention all the attack and release variants for many of the articulations. So I have to go to the Piano View anyway to use the dropdown menu to select the SV and specify the right kind of staccato, legato, long notes etc. Would be much easier if I could select the notes in the Score View and choose from all the SVs in a drop down menu right there.
It’s already a feature request in PreSonus. If you haven’t upvoted it, please do so at https://answers.presonus.com/55483/sound-variations-attributes-attach-sound-variations-notes 


If @Lukas or others have comments or alternate workarounds to the issues mentioned above, I’d be delighted to hear.


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## Lukas (Jul 16, 2021)

welltempered said:


> As @lucor mentioned, it’s a workflow killer when you move/nudge notes and the SVs don’t move with them





welltempered said:


> If @Lukas or others have comments or alternate workarounds to the issues mentioned above, I’d be delighted to hear.


I have created this feature request for a reason


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## lucor (Jul 16, 2021)

Speaking of workarounds, can somebody test and confirm this? Because this surely has to be a bug, right?


lucor said:


> BTW when you activate "Select Part Automation with Notes" in the Midi Editor and have the 'Sound Variations' tab in the bottom automation lane open, the Sound Variations will move with the notes, which is a very helpful compromise for now. But when another Tab, e.g. Velocity, is shown, the Sound Variations _won't_ move with the notes.
> Is this a bug, or intended behavior?


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## Lukas (Jul 16, 2021)

Not a bug. Only visible automation is selected (and moved / copied / ...) in order to prevent affecting other automation that is currently hidden.

You usually don't want to move a few notes and realize later that you accidentally moved controller data like Bank Select MSB, Breath Controller etc. that you didn't see while editing because you just wanted to move a few notes including its Pitch Bend or Modulation events.


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## lucor (Jul 17, 2021)

Lukas said:


> You really don't want to move a few notes and realize later that you accidentally moved controller data like Bank Select MSB, Breath Controller etc. that you didn't see while editing because you just wanted to move a few notes including its Pitch Bend or Modulation events.


It's a double-edged sword, since when moving something with CC1 you'd usually also want things like CC11, CC7 and Vibrato to move with it.

But yeah, let's just hope Presonus will implement the 'sticky' Sound Variations soon. I mean, they've already done the hard part, since the 'technology' is already there with Musical Symbols. Making it also work with Sound Variations should be a much easier task.


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## Lukas (Jul 17, 2021)

lucor said:


> It's a double-edged sword, since when moving something with CC1 you'd usually also want things like CC11, CC7 and Vibrato to move with it.


But you also usually want to see what you're doing. It's not that you can't move / edit them together. Since you can have an unlimited number of automation lanes open at the same time, just make sure CC1, CC11, CC7 and Vibrato are visible.



lucor said:


> But yeah, let's just hope Presonus will implement the 'sticky' Sound Variations soon. I mean, they've already done the hard part, since the 'technology' is already there with Musical Symbols. Making it also work with Sound Variations should be a much easier task.


Vote for it if you haven't already - and/or write a comment and describe why you prefer to have Sound Variations attached to notes:






Sound Variations as Note Attributes / Attach Sound Variations to Notes - Questions & Answers | PreSonus


Currently, Sound Variations are time-based, separate from notes and can be inserted at a ... copied and would always keep their Sound Variation.



answers.presonus.com


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 17, 2021)

whether to move expression data or even variation data along with notes when they are moved is a big "it depends". if you try to fix it one way, you will piss off half the population no matter what.

doesn't S1 support something like Note Expressions? In my view that is the best way to attach expression CC data to notes....so that when the notes are moved, the attached expression moves with it...while regular expression lane data should not move. DP11 has added this kind of feature, even when VST3 plugins are not being used..its not quite as capable as VST3 note expressions in that the expression data is still global for the midi channel as far as what the non-VST3 plugin will respond to. I'm not sure what it does for VST3 instruments, I haven't tried it yet. It might use the VST3 note expression feature to get note-by-note, I need to test that. This was all mainly to support MPE I think, not sure, but it seems to work even when not in MPE mode, I can attach sections of expression data to a particular note, and move the note with the expression data going along with it.... or I can also put normal stuff in the expression lanes and that does not move when the notes are moved. And IMHO, there are certain kinds of CC data should should be attached and some kinds that normally should not. Don't hard code it one way or the other!

In terms of articulations....attaching to the notes is most likely the way. most people would want it. However, taking Cubase DIRECTION's as an example, Those do not move with the notes. And there could be cases where that might be what you want actually....but I think generally the ATTRIBUTE style of expression map is what most people prefer to use for the simplicity that once its assigned to a note, that note is a staccato or whatever..no matter how you move it... But...there are many situations in composing where we copy notes to a new place and want to articulate it differently, so that is not really a given that it would always be the desire.

Perhaps a solution could be to have a key modifier to copy/move the notes with or without attached articulations......WITH being the default.

I also want to point out that some kinds of articulations are meant to be attached to one note in concept, while other kinds can be more global, meaning its meant to set the instrument into some mode and stay that way for a few notes...or a few bars...or longer. For example, if you need to put an instrument into MUTE mode....you want to send the keyswitch once with all notes after being muted for "a while". (that's more of a use case for something like a DIRECTION style). But things like staccato are meant to be explicit on a note by note basis. Just look at traditional notation for a hint for when different sound variations would need to be note-by-note vs affecting all notes until further notice.

So I would argue in the note-by-note case, the most likely desire would be to copy/move the sound variation information along with the note. Like copy and paste a staccato note from one place to another..most likely the user is bringing staccato along with it. However, if you move or copy a few notes out of a longer phrase that was in a MUTE section of music.... maybe in that case you don't want to bring the sound variation along with it. 

In the case of cubase, ATTRIBUTE expressions move with the note, DIRECTION style do not.

DP11 does not have anything like DIRECTION style, for reference. Nor does LogicPro.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Jul 18, 2021)

Has anyone had issues with PLAY + CCs? If it's any articulation other than channel 1 I cant get CCs to work?


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## Lukas (Jul 18, 2021)

Lukas said:


> it's a known issue in combination with VST3 instruments as automation in VST3 works a bit differently. You will see that when using VST2 instruments, CC data is sent to the correct MIDI channel. Of course, it's not a real solution to work with VST2 instruments only (especially if you want to use Opus + Sound Variations) so this is going to be fixed in one of the next maintenance updates.


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## Babe (Jul 18, 2021)

I'm having a similar problem with Capsule. I will have a multi on channel 1 which I switch via key switches. Then on channel 2, I will have single arts. If I start play on ch2, when I switch to ch1, silence, I'm using Kontakt inside of VEP.


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## DaddyO (Jul 19, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> whether to move expression data or even variation data along with notes when they are moved is a big "it depends". if you try to fix it one way, you will piss off half the population no matter what.
> 
> doesn't S1 support something like Note Expressions? In my view that is the best way to attach expression CC data to notes....so that when the notes are moved, the attached expression moves with it...while regular expression lane data should not move. DP11 has added this kind of feature, even when VST3 plugins are not being used..its not quite as capable as VST3 note expressions in that the expression data is still global for the midi channel as far as what the non-VST3 plugin will respond to. I'm not sure what it does for VST3 instruments, I haven't tried it yet. It might use the VST3 note expression feature to get note-by-note, I need to test that. This was all mainly to support MPE I think, not sure, but it seems to work even when not in MPE mode, I can attach sections of expression data to a particular note, and move the note with the expression data going along with it.... or I can also put normal stuff in the expression lanes and that does not move when the notes are moved. And IMHO, there are certain kinds of CC data should should be attached and some kinds that normally should not. Don't hard code it one way or the other!
> 
> ...


Congratulations on a great review of the situation as you see it. It advanced my thinking.


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## A.G (Jul 19, 2021)

Hi guys,

I have a few questions about the Sound Variation MIDI Remote system.

1. I'm trying to find if SV supports Program or Control Change Input switching, but it looks that SV is locked only to external KS remote switching?

2. The Remote KS works only if you use "Enable Key Switches" mode. So far so good...
I'm trying to find a MIDI Channel setting for the "Input KS", cause it is essential for large musical KS range articulation libraries. For example, if the VI (Full Strings) musical kay range is C-1 to C5, then there is no enough room for the external Remote KS if you use the same MIDI Channel (it is known that the external remote KS kill the music KS if they use the same MIDI Channel).

We need a discrete remote MIDI Channel (say Ch.16) for the 2nd external Keyboard which will be able to remote a large instrument musical range. For example, Logic MIDI Remote switches editor offers such MIDI Channel assignment.

We at Audio Grocery are developing some new products which need a large remote key range (or a Program Change input switch definition) so any replies are highly appreciated - thanks!


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## Patmolet (Jul 20, 2021)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Has anyone had issues with PLAY + CCs? If it's any articulation other than channel 1 I cant get CCs to work?


I also have this problem with Play. I couldn't try with another DAW, I wonder if the problem does not come from play?


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## Paul Jelfs (Jul 20, 2021)

The more I hear about it the more I am tempted to jump the Cubase ship and join HMS Studio One.

However, as someone that has only known Cubase (and a cheap Cubase knock off I forget the name off!) can someone with knowledge of both, give a rough summary of where Studio One is up to compared to Cubase for Midi editing /Composing. 

Am I right in thinking Studio One can do most things Midi wise (or is fast catching up to ) Cubase does, however it seems that 1) They are done in a more logical way 2) As they are new features and are coming thick and fast, there is still a few bugs to be worked out ? 

I know it would be impossible to list ALL the Midi differences between the two, but can someone give a general overview of what IMPORTANT Midi creating /editing etc things that Studio One 5.3 can do that Cubase cannot and vice versa. It is hard to directly compare as they have different names for their way of implementation (Sound Variations vs Articulation Maps etc). 

Is Studio One at 5.3 now able to extract Articulation maps (Or Sound Variations) for any Kontakt Patch, or is it like Cubase in that you have to find one or program your own ? 

Am sure there will be other big differences, but MIDI programming is what I am mainly interested in and that has always been where Cubase shines (in the past )


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## Lukas (Jul 20, 2021)

Paul Jelfs said:


> I know it would be impossible to list ALL the Midi differences between the two, but can someone give a general overview of what IMPORTANT Midi creating /editing etc things that Studio One 5.3 can do that Cubase cannot and vice versa.


...pretty much every Studio One / Cubase thread in this forum? 






Cubase vs. Studio One for click in MIDI writing?


Hi! Sorry if this has been asked before. I basically do all my composing by clicking in MIDI notes. I've been using Reaper for now and while It works and is incredibly customizable, sometimes I just can't get past how ugly it is, and when you factor in themes and extensions it becomes an...




vi-control.net







Paul Jelfs said:


> Is Studio One at 5.3 now able to extract Articulation maps (Or Sound Variations) for any Kontakt Patch, or is it like Cubase in that you have to find one or program your own ?


No DAW can do that. You need to create these maps on your own or you download existing ones (PreSonus Exchange is free for every Studio One user and already contains a number of Sound Variations for common libraries) or you use Art Conductor ( https://www.babylonwaves.com ) which is probably the most comprehensive solution.

And if you use VSL Synchron Player or Opus, Studio One will be able to receive these articulation maps dynamically from the instrument.


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## lucor (Jul 20, 2021)

In terms of Midi and Midi Editing there's two things I'm missing so far from Cubase (mind you that I'm still setting things up and haven't really done any actual full-on projects in S1 yet, so I'm sure there are things I'm not noticing right now):

The thing I'm missing the most so far is the ability to assign hotkeys to specific CC's in the Piano Roll (so one shortcut to open the Modwheel lane, another for Velocity, etc.)
Another important thing I think you can't do is build macros to edit CC data. For example in Cubase I can select multiple events and with the press of one button decrease the CC1 data for all of them by -5. I haven't found a way to do this in S1, it seems only possible with Velocity.
Midi FX are also extremely basic (nothing for transpose, CC remapping, Velocity curves etc.), so I hope that can expand there too (or even better allow 3rd party plugins to be used as Note FX).

Apart from that S1's midi capabilites are really, really good though.


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## Babe (Jul 20, 2021)

lucor said:


> In terms of Midi and Midi Editing there's two things I'm missing so far from Cubase (mind you that I'm still setting things up and haven't really done any actual full-on projects in S1 yet, so I'm sure there are things I'm not noticing right now):
> 
> The thing I'm missing the most so far is the ability to assign hotkeys to specific CC's in the Piano Roll (so one shortcut to open the Modwheel lane, another for Velocity, etc.)
> Another important thing I think you can't do is build macros to edit CC data. For example in Cubase I can select multiple events and with the press of one button decrease the CC1 data for all of them by -5. I haven't found a way to do this in S1, it seems only possible with Velocity.
> ...


But S1 has tags on top of the controller lane for each CC. Much better than trying to remember hotkeys.


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## lucor (Jul 20, 2021)

Babe said:


> But S1 has tags on top of the controller lane for each CC. Much better than trying to remember hotkeys.


I disagree. You only have to remember a few, and once you have those internalized it's much, much faster than having to move your mouse to those tiny tags in the Editor all the time.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 20, 2021)

Patmolet said:


> I also have this problem with Play. I couldn't try with another DAW, I wonder if the problem does not come from play?



no the problem is not PLAY. The problem is that whenever you re-channelize notes on an articulation-by-articulation basis from the source track....the CC's, PitchBend and AfterTouch also need to be re-channlized to those corresponding midi channels. None of the articulation management systems today do that. Its possible to do with Cakewalk if you know how to set it up. LogicPro, Cubase, StudioOne, and now DP11....none of them are doing so... that's why your CC's aren't making it to the other midi channels in PLAY or any other instrument such as kontakt where you might be using that channelizing approach.

I wrote some Scripter scripts for LogicPro to work around that, but you have to use LogicPro to make use of that obviously.

write your congressman and ask for CC propagation while channelizing!


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## Lukas (Jul 20, 2021)

Patmolet said:


> I also have this problem with Play. I couldn't try with another DAW, I wonder if the problem does not come from play?


Are you using the VST3 version of PLAY? If so, this is a known issue in Studio One 5.3 that occurs in combination with VST3 instruments. It works as expected (CCs being sent on the correct MIDI channel) with VST2 instruments.


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## EgM (Jul 20, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> no the problem is not PLAY. The problem is that whenever you re-channelize notes on an articulation-by-articulation basis from the source track....the CC's, PitchBend and AfterTouch also need to be re-channlized to those corresponding midi channels. None of the articulation management systems today do that. Its possible to do with Cakewalk if you know how to set it up. LogicPro, Cubase, StudioOne, and now DP11....none of them are doing so... that's why your CC's aren't making it to the other midi channels in PLAY or any other instrument such as kontakt where you might be using that channelizing approach.
> 
> I wrote some Scripter scripts for LogicPro to work around that, but you have to use LogicPro to make use of that obviously.
> 
> write your congressman and ask for CC propagation while channelizing!


Simple fix, use the VST2 version of Play. @Lukas has mentioned this quite a few times


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 20, 2021)

I think we might be talking about different issues..


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## EgM (Jul 20, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> I think we might be talking about different issues..


The issue was:

"Has anyone had issues with PLAY + CCs? If it's any articulation other than channel 1 I cant get CCs to work?"

The VST2 version of Play doesn't have any issue passing CCs to other channels


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 20, 2021)

Alright... not what I was talking about as you have interpreted it. sorry for mentioning anything... But its common for PLAY users to be dealing with the issue I was mentioning, which is why I mentioned it. If it doesn't apply then sorry for the bandwidth


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## EgM (Jul 20, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> Alright... not what I was talking about as you have interpreted it. sorry for mentioning anything... But its common for PLAY users to be dealing with the issue I was mentioning, which is why I mentioned it. If it doesn't apply then sorry for the bandwidth


Sorry if I misread anything, I was replying to your reply from @Patmolet


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 20, 2021)

Is Studio One 5 available as a demo anywhere? I can't find it if so...


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## Trash Panda (Jul 20, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> Is Studio One 5 available as a demo anywhere? I can't find it if so...


If you create a Presonus account, there should be an option to demo S1 and Notion when you log in.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 20, 2021)

found it thanks.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Jul 20, 2021)

Paul Jelfs said:


> Am sure there will be other big differences, but MIDI programming is what I am mainly interested in and that has always been where Cubase shines (in the past )


I used Cubase since version 6 and just migrated to S1 roughly 8 months ago. S1 is far superior when it comes to midi editing (and most other things - look up how to connect what cubase calls generic remotes if you want to laugh/cry at Cubase's expense) and there is 0 chance ill be using Cubase again.


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## Lukas (Jul 21, 2021)

A.G said:


> Here is a Video where I show the CC channel switching errors in question:


This is indeed not a bug. It allows the user to control exactly which instruments receive which automation. There is no automatic chasing of all used automation parameters when changing the MIDI channel, as Dewman42 has pointed out correctly. Such chasing might be the desired behavior in some cases, but it can also lead to side effects and wouldn't be of much help in a real-world scenario.

Draw a modwheel ramp and switch the sound variation in the middle and everything is fine. In the real case (switching between articulations or even between different sample libraries) you will most likely have to adjust the CC values anyway.


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## Robin (Jul 21, 2021)

For everybody who's asking for chasing CC: where outside from a theoretical problem does that become a practical problem for you? Personally, I know hardly any library where I don't need to manually match cc's between different articulations anyway or where I would leave an essential CC untouched for extended periods of time and over articulation switches. I understand the issues that you're having with that but I'm just lacking the imagination where this would become an actual problem in practical use.


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## stigc56 (Jul 21, 2021)

Babe said:


> But S1 has tags on top of the controller lane for each CC. Much better than trying to remember hotkeys.


Hotkeys can be assigned to buttons in Metagrid, then it's fast!


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 21, 2021)

Lukas said:


> There is no automatic chasing of all used automation parameters when changing the MIDI channel, as Dewman42 has pointed out correctly. Such chasing might be the desired behavior in some cases, but it can also lead to side effects and wouldn't be of much help in a real-world scenario.



I’m afraid you have that backwards, as does presonus also it would seem.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 21, 2021)

Robin said:


> For everybody who's asking for chasing CC: where outside from a theoretical problem does that become a practical problem for you? Personally, I know hardly any library where I don't need to manually match cc's between different articulations anyway or where I would leave an essential CC untouched for extended periods of time and over articulation switches. I understand the issues that you're having with that but I'm just lacking the imagination where this would become an actual problem in practical use.



One example, you want to draw in cc11 expression over the course of a phrase that has two articulation changes in it.


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## Robin (Jul 21, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> One example, you want to draw in cc11 expression over the course of a phrase that has two articulation changes in it.


Yes, I understand that but wouldn't you adjust the CC11 anyway when you switch articulation? As I said, I don't know a lot of libraries where you don't need to adjust the CC11 for a new articulation anyway.


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## Lukas (Jul 21, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> One example, you want to draw in cc11 expression over the course of a phrase that has two articulation changes in it.


When you automate CC11 over the course of a phrase, you most likely draw in a line or curve and not just one new automation point resulting in the volume suddenly jumping to another value right? Which works absolutely fine here with Channel Changes in between


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 21, 2021)

No not necessarily level balancing your articulations in the template is a seperate problem that should always be addressed

Having to draw seperate cc11 curves for each articulation would drive me nuts 

Granted in some cases you very well may have to send some expression without chasing explicitly on another track using the desired midi channel of that one articulation.

But the source track that is channelizing notes should channelize expression also otherwise you’re still stuck in track per articulation mode, at least for expression


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 21, 2021)

Lukas said:


> When you automate CC11 over the course of a phrase, you most likely draw in a line or curve and not just one new automation point resulting in the volume suddenly jumping to another value right? Which works absolutely fine here with Channel Changes in between



Yes that is what it should do. I was going to test S1 last night to see what it does. It seems like AG already tested before I could so I didn’t bother. If it already chases and propagates cc expression that is great news.


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## Lukas (Jul 21, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> But the source track that is channelizing notes should channelize expression also


...which it does.

You don't need "separate cc11 curves for each articulation".

@Dewdman42 I would highly recommend you to try out the DAW whose features, implementations and workflow you are judging here. A discussion like this one benefits enormously from knowing a little bit about the software. And apart from that, Studio One is amazing and worth checking out anyway.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 21, 2021)

Hey Lukas calm down. You responded to me when I made a general comment about all known daws, so I responded to you. Now because you are making a big point about it I assure you I will test S1 later today to verify if you are telling the truth or not. 

S1 is always on the radar for me as a possible daw and I may very well end up on it but only when it does everything I need it to do. As I said already, none of the daws as far as I know handle this aspect correctly. I will test S1 later today but I’m doubtful at the moment


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 21, 2021)

Actually Ivan’s video yesterday shows the problems that still exist, if I get time I will test to verify his results but this seems unnecessary. S1 does not really handle that right either. In fairness none of the daws do yet except possibly cakewalk

Ivan has a commercially supported solution for this requirement available for logicpro users and I have a free scripter solution for logicpro ; the power of scripter.

Otherwise, all the main daws have overlooked this issue except perhaps cakewalk but it’s not automatic in cakewalk either.

Yes the cc’s need to be chased for every articulation. Not only that but what happens in S1 if and when you have one note that overlaps with another note on a different articulation channel? In that case the cc needs to be propagated to both midi channels during the overlap. Note that after a note off, an instrument is still performing the actual audio release that extends over time for a bit after the actual note off. So the cc propagation to that midi Channel will need to continue for a short while even if its now being channelized to a new channel for the next note as a new articulation.


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## Robin (Jul 21, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> Note that after a note off, an instrument is still performing the actual audio release that extends over time for a bit after the actual note off. So the cc propagation to that midi Channel will need to continue for a short while even if its now being channelized to a new channel for the next note as a new articulation.


If a sampled instrument reacts after note off to cc11 on the release, I would consider that bad sample programming. In the case that you described I would want the complete contrary behaviour and not propagate new cc information to the ringing out of a previous note. Just imagine a forte marcato followed instantly by a subito piano legato. If the CC11 from the piano legato would be propagated to the tail of the marcato forte and by an odd chance that sample would even react on that, it would become really problematic.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 21, 2021)

You are considering that wrong. All instruments have a release time and cc7 should fade out, or cc11 for that matter on whatever ramp you want even as the note is releasing, just one example.

The example of a super soft note followed by an overlapped super loud note is not a realistic scenario, but either way, if they are overlapping in any way then the cc expression should effect them both AS IF they were on one midi channel with keyswitches


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 21, 2021)

Also does S1 allow for different notes of a chord to have different articulations? I think probably not so it may not matter but if it does then same problem you need the cc going to more then one midi channel during that time.

Anyway the point is that play users are the ones that need this feature the most because of play’s lousy key switching. Opus is possibly better but it’s unknown to me whether it actually propagates the cc’s through to its keyswitch multi concept, I’m guessing not. But never know


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## Robin (Jul 21, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> You are considering that wrong. All instruments have a release time and cc7 should fade out, or cc11 for that matter on whatever ramp you want even as the note is releasing, just one example.


No.


Dewdman42 said:


> The example of a super soft note followed by an overlapped super loud note is not a realistic scenario


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## Trash Panda (Jul 21, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> Also does S1 allow for different notes of a chord to have different articulations? I think probably not so it may not matter but if it does then same problem you need the cc going to more then one midi channel during that time.


You might be able to do this with music symbols assigned to a sound variation as they seem to be tied to the note level information. Sound Variations are tied to the timeline, so all notes between the points set to a sound variation would have the same one applied.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 21, 2021)

I don’t have time to listen to a long video. How do you expect a player to play a loud note OVERLAPPING a quiet note?

If you were mocking things up on a single midi channel with keyswitching the the cc would be global also.

This discussion is getting ridiculous. Some of you seem to want to argue no matter what, particularly due to emotional attachment to your daw. I’m just pointing out the facts in hope of seeing future improvements. I’m like the lorax


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 21, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> You might be able to do this with music symbols assigned to a sound variation as they seem to be tied to the note level information. Sound Variations are tied to the timeline, so all notes between the points set to a sound variation would have the same one applied.



Good to know. Well in that case cc expression would need to go potentially to multiple midi channels at once


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## Babe (Jul 21, 2021)

Robin said:


> If a sampled instrument reacts after note off to cc11 on the release, I would consider that bad sample programming. In the case that you described I would want the complete contrary behaviour and not propagate new cc information to the ringing out of a previous note. Just imagine a forte marcato followed instantly by a subito piano legato. If the CC11 from the piano legato would be propagated to the tail of the marcato forte and by an odd chance that sample would even react on that, it would become really problematic.


Same art. or different art., when I have a soft note followed by a loud note, the release tail increases in volume. I have this problem with all libraries. I use 2 tracks, soft note on one, loud on the other, to get around this problem. This is not a problem for you?


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## Robin (Jul 21, 2021)

Babe said:


> Same art. or different art., when I have a soft note followed by a loud note, the release tail increases in volume. I have this problem with all libraries. I use 2 tracks, soft note on one, loud on the other, to get around this problem. This is not a problem for you?


In fact I don't, I don't recall a library that reacts on CC1 after note off in the release tail. With which library are you experiencing these issues?

Edit: Sorry I meant CC1 (Modwheel). CC11 will indeed react most of the time.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 21, 2021)

If a library doesn’t adjust level via cc11 during the release tail, and I’m not disputing that could be the case sometimes, it’s not a given that it always will be the case, cc7 almost for sure would not be the case….. it would depend entirely on how the instrument is programmed but I find it unlikely that many would not have various forms of automation including cc11 affect the release tail.

but anyway if a particular instrument ignores the trailing cc11 anyway then it would be a non issue for that library that the cc11 continues to be sent to it; but it could be important in other cases where the instrument does continue listening to it. I happen to know this issue came up in the past for people using 3rd party articulation management systems from a few years ago.


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## Robin (Jul 21, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> but it could be important in other cases where the instrument does continue listening to it.


From a practicability standpoint it seems considerably more attractive to manually add this behaviour if you want it compared to not being able to eliminate it when you don't want it (which chasing CC would consequentially cause in such cases).


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 21, 2021)

I see it the other way around. Why should we have to manually add the much more typical behavior especially when it’s no harm to you with your instruments that apparently are ignoring CC11 during release according to you? That is not sensible. The behavior should be for a channelized track to behave similarly as a keyswitched track, not some jerky behavior where cc’s don’t chase properly and you have to manually clean it up.

It’s also something that can easily be switchable. My logicpro scripts provide a fader so that you can dial in the exact amount of cc continuation past noteff, from zero to something like up to ten seconds. Best of both worlds


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## Robin (Jul 21, 2021)

Because channelized articulation switches could create incredibly problematic results that you will not have in keyswitched articulations if you chase all CC. Just imagine the chaos that would happen if you switch channels between two patches/instruments that use the same CC for different functions (e.g. Hollywood Strings which use Modwheel for Vibrato while most other libraries use Modwheel for Dynamics). If you chase these between channels, you will get nightmares and spend a good amount of time correcting it manually.

PS: Correction about my statement of CC11 not affecting release tails, I was in fact meaning CC1


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 21, 2021)

Most likely cc1 works during release also but it depends on the instrument’s programming

What incredibly problematic results? Be more specific. 

Would you be ok according to you if it were an option to turn on or off?

What I see apparent in AG’s video above is that right now S1 has incredibly problematic results. So maybe presonus can work on fixing that


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## Robin (Jul 21, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> What incredibly problematic results? Be more specific.


If in such an instance the CCs were chased, you would literally have almost no chance to set the new value for the CC when switching from one articulation to the other when there is no gap in between notes, especially when the CCs get even chased after the switch as you suggest.
You would create unpredictable behaviour within instruments and hardly have a chance to do anything about it.

Example: two adjacent notes without gaps that should switch articulation between the two. CCX has a different function on the first note (CH1) than on the second note (CH2). If you chase CCX into the second note, it would become incredibly cumbersome to counteract that effect. Even worse, if it is a complex instrument like Capsule that listens on practically every CC and has a function for almost every CC. Without staying on high alert in this regard, you could involuntarily chase a CC into the new articulation that heavily messes with the instrument and its performance. Worst case is you end up with instrument behaviour that you will need to hunt down ifor its source and might end up in a chaos because you might have set a CC dozens of articulations earlier that still chases into it.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 21, 2021)

When you have a mixed bag like that, then you definitely should use seperate tracks for each articulation and that is not relevant here, it’s only relevant when you are trying to use a single source track to drive articulations by channel. In that case there is no way around the fact that if you use a mixed bag of instruments with wildly different functions for each cc, then you should notbe using the single source track to drive them, at least the cc, pitchbend and aftertouch. You can put all the notes on one source track in order to see the music on a single staff, which is useful but you should automate them in a totally seperate track for each midi channel.

I’m tired of this topic now it’s just going in circles. Ivan understands the issue well hopefully presonus will listen to him since he is an actual commercial company maybe they will listen to him.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 21, 2021)

Ps if presonus really wants to do something cool they should have sound variations drive vst3 note expression streams on an articulation by articulation basis which would end all conflicts giving each note it’s own recognizable cc’s, while some other cc’s like cc7 and cc1 could be more global in nature. It’s all doable with more intelligence in the software


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## Lukas (Jul 21, 2021)

@A.G. Thanks - I appreciate your explanation.

However, I only partly agree with that. As I said, this behavior can have side effects which can be desired or not.



A.G said:


> The MIDI Channel Change system must switch


You (and Dewdman42) would prefer it that way. The current implementation is more flexible. Otherwise, one or more options would be required (preferably on a per-SV map basis) to prevent chasing in cases where that's not the desired behavior.



Dewdman42 said:


> I’m tired of this topic now it’s just going in circles. Ivan understands the issue well hopefully presonus will listen


PreSonus always listens to feature requests - especially those with many votes. So far, nobody has created an official feature request, which might also tell something about the relevance of this request.


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## Lukas (Jul 21, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> Ps if presonus really wants to do something cool they should have sound variations drive vst3 note expression streams on an articulation by articulation basis which would end all conflicts giving each note it’s own recognizable cc’s, while some other cc’s like cc7 and cc1 could be more global in nature. It’s all doable with more intelligence in the software


Sure. Make a feature request


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 21, 2021)

Lukas said:


> @A.G. Thanks - I appreciate your explanation.
> 
> You (and Dewdman42) would prefer it that way. The current implementation is more flexible.



More flexible? I don't think so. less flexible. More "simple" is the word I think you are looking for.




Lukas said:


> Otherwise, one or more options would be required (preferably on a per-SV map basis) to prevent chasing in cases where that's not the desired behavior.



Might be, but that would actually be more flexible and I think you are worrying about chasing problems that don't exist except for rare situations. The common case needs to chase. AG's video shows the problems when it doesn't. I honestly can't even consider S1 with this issue...

As always I am watching S1 closely over time, maybe in the future it will get there.


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## Crossroads (Jul 21, 2021)

Look, if people wanted another Cubase or Logic, why just don't use that instead of forcing Studio One to do the same thing. You ain't winning nothing, cause it's it's own thing. Accept that and move on. I know you guys want to sell your products, but honestly, they kind of suck and they have nothing to do with the discussion here. I don't want to buy your maps, I don't want to buy your software, I want to have a discussion about Studio One, so please kind of ff off. Thank you.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 21, 2021)

Cubase and LogicPro are also currently suffering from the same problem FWIW. My hope is that ALL of them, including S1, will continue to get needed improvements in the area of articulation management. I won't be hushed, so don't bother trying... hehehe.


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## Fenicks (Jul 26, 2021)

Hi @Lukas, since you are the resident Studio One expert here, I wondered if you might have a fix for a problem I've encountered several times since the full screen option became available in Windows.


When I happen to replace an instrument that I've edited with another it launches the usual "Really replace? Changes will be lost" pop-up. In normal screen mode this is no problem and I can easily click Yes and proceed. However, this pop-up doesn't appear to be integrated with full screen mode. At first I thought I had done something wrong because I kept trying to replace the instrument but nothing happened. Eventually by using the Windows + Tab buttons I discovered the pop-up is there, but not showing up anywhere in the Studio One full screen mode where I can click it. So I tried to navigate to the pop-up via Windows + Tab, but when I try to select it so I can press Yes or No, it defaults to Studio One where, again, I can't click the pop-up because it's in full screen mode. In fact, I can no longer do anything in the DAW while that pop-up is lurking. Even if I close my song and go back to the home screen, the pop-up persists and prevents me from even closing the DAW. I just now ended up in a VERY frustrating loop trying to literally escape full screen mode so I could move on my with my life. Unfortunately it took this happening to me multiple times before I realised only ten minutes ago that I could just press the keyboard shortcut for full screen mode to go back to the default mode and close the damn pop-up (no, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed). A happy outcome, but it does seem to me that this pop-up should be accessible in full screen mode, otherwise one would have to frequently swap between the modes which is an impediment to workflow and peace. Is that something Presonus can fix?


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## aka70 (Sep 11, 2021)

lucor said:


> Another important thing I think you can't do is build macros to edit CC data. For example in Cubase I can select multiple events and with the press of one button decrease the CC1 data for all of them by -5. I haven't found a way to do this in S1, it seems only possible with Velocity.


Is this possible in S5?? This would be very useful


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## lucor (Sep 11, 2021)

aka70 said:


> Is this possible in S5?? This would be very useful


Only with velocities unfortunately, not with CC data.


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## ka00 (Sep 11, 2021)

lucor said:


> Only with velocities unfortunately, not with CC data.


What about doing it like this? Just press alt and drag while viewing velocities. Then switch over to the other lane you want to edit. The edit points give you lots of options.


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## lucor (Sep 11, 2021)

ka00 said:


> What about doing it like this? Just press alt and drag while viewing velocities. Then switch over to the other lane you want to edit. The edit points give you lots of options.


This works great on a _single _track, but what I meant is adjusting these things for _multiple _tracks at the same. Currently in Studio One you need to do this one track after the other.


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## lucor (Sep 11, 2021)

By the way, now that I am a few months into my Studio One adventure, I can already say that there is no way in hell I'm ever going back to Cubase.  Still quite a lot of things that I'm missing in S1, but the positive things outweigh them by a lot.


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## Lukas (Sep 21, 2021)

A Sound Variation map is not assigned to the track but to the instrument target. SINE Player CH 1 is a different target than CH 2 so they have different slots for SV maps. So from the implementation point of view, this is the correct behavior.

What I think is missing is an easy way to copy it from one channel/port to another. From a workflow perspective, this is not ideal. You need to save it as an SV preset so you can load it in the other CH.


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## Lukas (Sep 21, 2021)

ka00 said:


> This same reset behaviour happens with drum maps as well. I have to redo a lot of drum maps that were reset when I switched channel numbers. I should have saved them all as well.


Why redo? You only need to change back to the original channel and save the preset.


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## Lukas (Sep 21, 2021)

ka00 said:


> Only 48x16 possibilities to check.


High time to hire an assistant.


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## Babe (Sep 21, 2021)

The channel changes work the same on automation, which is assigned to a channel, not the track like in other DAWs. So it stands to reason that the sound variations work the same way. This is my biggest complaint about S1. It also prevents you from having a template channel with automation parameters. If you have a track with automation assigned to ch. 1, you can't duplicate the track, assign it to ch. 2, and have the automation parameters follow. You then have to enter all the parameters again with the new ch. assignment.


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## Olympum (Dec 4, 2021)

I hope somebody has encountered this problem while working with the MIDI channel change in Studio One: I am trying to set up a sound variation set using MIDI channel changes as introduced in 5.3, with Studio One connected to Vienna Ensemble Pro. The channel change works fine for MIDI port 1, but it fails to work for MIDI port 2 and above. Has anybody else seen this behaviour?


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## Lukas (Dec 4, 2021)

Yes, the problem is confirmed (Channel Changes via Sound Variations only working on MIDI port 1 when using VST3 instruments) and will be fixed with the next Studio One update.


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## Olympum (Dec 4, 2021)

Lukas said:


> Yes, the problem is confirmed (Channel Changes via Sound Variations only working on MIDI port 1 when using VST3 instruments) and will be fixed with the next Studio One update.


Thank Lukas! Eagerly waiting for the next update 

In case it's useful to somebody searching until the next update arrives: in Vienna Ensemble Pro it is possible to address this issue by going back to the pre-VST3 Event Input plugin so that we can reach the higher MIDI ports.


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## muziksculp (Dec 4, 2021)

Lukas said:


> Yes, the problem is confirmed (Channel Changes via Sound Variations only working on MIDI port 1 when using VST3 instruments) and will be fixed with the next Studio One update.


Thanks for the feedback.

I wonder if the next Studio One Pro 5 update will be ver 5.5 , which normally brings along a good number of new features, plus fixes, and various improvements. Looking forward to ver 5.5


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## Jobreu (Oct 30, 2022)

Why does sound variations and musical symbols not effecting my playback at all?


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## Lukas (Oct 30, 2022)

Jobreu said:


> Why does sound variations and musical symbols not effecting my playback at all?


Does Opus receive the keyswitches?


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## Jobreu (Oct 30, 2022)

How can i see?


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## Jobreu (Oct 30, 2022)

Now I see that the key switches does work (after updating Opus) but the Dynamics (Directions) does not effect playback. Also, when I load a KS Master sound in Opus. The sound variation only gets 6 key switches


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## Lukas (Oct 30, 2022)

Jobreu said:


> How can i see?


Open Opus and look.



Jobreu said:


> but the Dynamics (Directions) does not effect playback.


The symbols usually trigger Sound Variations or (in case of dynamics) change the velocity of the notes. Now it depends on how the library interprets them...


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## Jobreu (Oct 30, 2022)

> I’m not sure how it works. I am not the best when it comes to midi automation. I do all my work in Sibelius. Why does only 4 5 key switches show up?


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## Jobreu (Oct 30, 2022)

Hey I did not know ToolBox is your project I recently bought it. It is the best investment for Studio One I ever bought. Thanks!!


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## Jobreu (Oct 30, 2022)

> Lukas said:
> 
> 
> > Open Opus and look.
> ...


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## Lukas (Oct 30, 2022)

Jobreu said:


> Hey I did not know ToolBox is your project I recently bought it. It is the best investment for Studio One I ever bought. Thanks!!


No, Studio One Toolbox ( https://studioonetoolbox.com ) is my project, it exists for 3 years now. It's a website.

This year, Kulture Sounds made a preset pack for Studio One and called it Toolbox. It's indeed confusing.


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## Jobreu (Oct 30, 2022)

> Can i have the dynamics to control Expression instead of velocity?


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## Jobreu (Oct 30, 2022)

Lukas said:


> No, Studio One Toolbox ( https://studioonetoolbox.com ) is my project, it exists for 3 years now. It's a website.
> 
> This year, Kulture Sounds made a preset pack for Studio One and called it Toolbox. It's indeed confusing.


Oh, Studio One ToolBox and Epic ONline Orchestra are also amazing thought for me personal I don;'t use it so much. But It's unique and helpful for lot's of S1 customers. ; - )


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## Jobreu (Oct 30, 2022)

Does any one else experience issues with sound variations? It sucks.
Some sounds no sound variation is loading. Others only some are loading. And others, all of then loading properly.
Also, using VST3, no sound variations are loading at all....


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## Jobreu (Oct 31, 2022)

Anyone to help?


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## mussnig (Oct 31, 2022)

Jobreu said:


> Anyone to help?


I don't have OPUS but if you want people to help you, I strongly recommend that you share in more detail how you set everything up and how exactly the problem occurs. Ideally you would make a short screencast.


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## Lukas (Oct 31, 2022)

mussnig said:


> if you want people to help you, I strongly recommend that you share in more detail


+1


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## EgM (Oct 31, 2022)

Jobreu said:


> Does any one else experience issues with sound variations? It sucks.
> Some sounds no sound variation is loading. Others only some are loading. And others, all of then loading properly.
> Also, using VST3, no sound variations are loading at all....


1 - You want to make sure you're using the VST3 version of Opus, right now in your 3rd screenshot, the VST 2.4 version is selected. VST3 plugins have a /// icon like I've highlighted.

2 - You have multi patches loaded in one instance of Opus (2nd Violins, Violas, Celli, 2nd Violins, etc) and they are all set to 'Omni', I'm not sure that's gonna work because the keyswitches will target all the instruments in the instance... I think you would have to select individual midi channels for each but that could be more problems than it's worth. I'd suggest simply using one instrument per instance.

3 - Also, may be related to your problem or not but make sure you turn on the switches on all the articulations you want to use.


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## Jobreu (Oct 31, 2022)

Thanks a lot. This helped me!


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## QuiteAlright (Friday at 9:31 PM)

I skimmed this thread, so apologies if this has already been asked before. Is there a way to customize negative delay per "variation"?

I saw elsewhere a workaround where somebody made multiple channels for each instrument, added a delay effect separately to each channel, and then made the sound variation do a channel switch instead of a key switch. 

But that ruins the automatic mapping from OPUS / Spitfire / VSL. Plus, for monophonic players, this isn't possible.


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