# Layering options



## mrd777 (Feb 8, 2017)

Hi guys, 

I'm trying to layer some instruments to to make a melody bigger. 

What, do you think I should do? 

1) layer a family of related instruments to play the melody. Eg, brass section plays unison melody. 

Or

2) have instruments from different sections layer to play the line. Eg, horns, clarinets, violins. 

Thanks!! 
Dave


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## ghandizilla (Feb 8, 2017)

Mike Verta recommands layering single instruments patches with ensemble patches. For example, he may use Symphobia Ensemble sustains to layer with Berlin Strings. The ensemble must be backed, it's there to "glue" and "widen" the single instruments patches.


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## mrd777 (Feb 8, 2017)

ghandizilla said:


> Mike Verta recommands layering single instruments patches with ensemble patches. For example, he may use Symphobia Ensemble sustains to layer with Berlin Strings. The ensemble must be backed, it's there to "glue" and "widen" the single instruments patches.


Hey thanks for the reply, but I dont think that was my question actually. 

I'm referring to if you were to have a live orchestra play a melody for example, what would be your choice in making the melody layers? Aka, what instruments are your choices to layer? Do you use a whole section in unison to play the melody, or do split the melody between different sections?


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## ghandizilla (Feb 8, 2017)

Aaah ! I thought it was a VI question  Orchestration-wise, both options are possible. You can begin a track by having just let's say cellis and basses, clarinets, and horns. And then, at the second occurrence of the theme, clarinets are doubled with violas. And then, at the third occurrence, three instruments play the melody, but the clarinets have been dropped off for a change of color. (Just a random example!) It's all a matter of the color you're looking for. The more instruments you layer, the less "pure" your color will be, but the more density and opacity you will have. Nevertheless, if you begin your piece by having every instruments being doubled, you may have troubles to create some reliefs, except if you begin ppp and are then very careful with your dynamics. There's a lot to learn from Ravel, just listen to Daphnis and Chloe with a score. Another "layering" exemple (I prefer to say "doubling" to avoid confusion with VI-related matters), is for example having two clarinets playing in unison and the third clarinet playing an octave lower: you are not obliged to have every section playing unison, and it lets room for some more nuanced color control. If you want to quickly have a palet without spending months in score-studying, the Spectrotone is an efficient shortcut -> http://www.alexanderpublishing.com/Products/Spectrotone-Chart-Download__Spec-01-Download.aspx But it will never be as efficient as true score-studying.


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## Nils Neumann (Feb 8, 2017)

Simple but effective answer:
Study Orchestration (The Study of Orchestration by Samuel Adler is excellent)
Transcribe every day.
There are so many ways to layer/harmonize/accopaniment a melody, you shouldn't go with just one answer (except for epic melodies, you are only allowed to use a a9-12 Horn patch!!!).


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## ghandizilla (Feb 8, 2017)

Transcribing, mock-uping, listening with scores: it's the long way, but it's the best way, which ensures the most solid skills.


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## Lassi Tani (Feb 8, 2017)

So the question was, how to make the melody bigger. There are many ways to make it bigger and I think it's not always about making it bigger, it also depends on the differences of timbre and movement of the melody compared to background. You can e.g. give the melody to instruments with their best register in the melody range. Also movement in melody compared to simpler background tends to make the melody stand out. And differences between timbre make the melody distinguish, e.g. strings in melody vs rest of orchestra in background. Other than that it all comes to the sound you want to achieve.

There are so many possibilities, thus a book like The Study of Orchestration would be good to have. Also check out: http://northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration?s=0adbe4e0fc8d64293a3bdc34cfa935ae

I recommend buying orchestral scores, listen to recordings and study, how the composer made it sound like that. Then use the same combinations and start testing.


*
*


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## ghandizilla (Feb 8, 2017)

I agree: it's all about creating reliefs, not only in time (see Ravel), but in timbre as well, effectively. You can indeed use contrasts such as long/short, pure/dense, etc. between melody and the background.


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 8, 2017)

sekkosiki said:


> So the question was, how to make the melody bigger. There are many ways to make it bigger and I think it's not always about making it bigger, it also depends on the differences of timbre and movement of the melody compared to background. You can e.g. give the melody to instruments with their best register in the melody range. Also movement in melody compared to simpler background tends to make the melody stand out. And differences between timbre make the melody distinguish, e.g. strings in melody vs rest of orchestra in background. Other than that it all comes to the sound you want to achieve.
> 
> There are so many possibilities, thus a book like The Study of Orchestration would be good to have. Also check out: http://northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration?s=0adbe4e0fc8d64293a3bdc34cfa935ae
> 
> I recommend buying orchestral scores, listen to recordings and study, how the composer made it sound like that. Then use the same combinations and start testing.



+1 my friend! Great post. Adler's Orchestration book is great, Rimsky-Korsakov, the Forsythe. I have them, and refer back to them all the time, especially the Adler (which on its own you could do miracles with).


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## Paul T McGraw (Feb 8, 2017)

There is a very good online course about this exact subject. It is "Orchestrating the Line" and it goes into detail about all of the options, octave doubling, thickening, single instrument timbre, and combined instrument options. Having read several books on orchestration I always found the information on instrument range, and articulations included in the texts invaluable, and I keep the Adler constantly available for reference. 

However, the online course I am recommending covers orchestration choices in a very understandable and memorable way that will make sense of the details covered in the textbooks and provide a practical approach to making orchestration choices. Here is a link to the course.

https://scoreclub.net/course/orchestrating-the-line/


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## Lassi Tani (Feb 8, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> +1 my friend! Great post. Adler's Orchestration book is great, Rimsky-Korsakov, the Forsythe. I have them, and refer back to them all the time, especially the Adler (which on its own you could do miracles with).



Thank you! I should really buy Rimsky-Korsakov's book :D. And I've only heard good things about Scoreclub's courses


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## ghandizilla (Feb 8, 2017)

There is a great layout of Rimsky Korsakov's book on Garritan's website.


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## mrd777 (Feb 8, 2017)

Just wanted to thank all of you for the replies. I'll be looking at the resources you referenced!


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## Rodney Money (Feb 9, 2017)

mrd777 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm trying to layer some instruments to to make a melody bigger.
> 
> ...


To make a melody bigger and what I call "a highly spirited soaring sound," I do this: start with a trumpet melody doubled by the upper register of the violas, then horns 8va basso with celli doubling the horns, and finally violins 8va higher than the trumpets. The brass provide the strength and power while the strings provide a shimmering halo effect all in their upper registers.


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## mrd777 (Feb 9, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> To make a melody bigger and what I call "a highly spirited soaring sound," I do this: start with a trumpet melody doubled by the upper register of the violas, then horns 8va basso with celli doubling the horns, and finally violins 8va higher than the trumpets. The brass provide the strength and power while the strings provide a shimmering halo effect all in their upper registers.



I don't have the best of ears, but it sounds like trumpets are not in their highest register? So I'm assuming your soaring sound does not mean "highest" sound. Thanks!


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## Rodney Money (Feb 9, 2017)

mrd777 said:


> I don't have the best of ears, but it sounds like trumpets are not in their highest register? So I'm assuming your soaring sound does not mean "highest" sound. Thanks!


The trumpets are playing in their best sounding register from Bb middle of the treble staff to high Bb above the treble staff. The horns are an 8va below them. For a more piercing, brassy sound, even more powerful sound, you would double the trombones an 8va below the trumpets instead of the horns. The horns give it more of a hero sound thus "soaring." If you added a woodwind to the mix, the woodwind such as a clarinet would take the brassy edge off the brass sound thus making it sound more mellow.


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## mrd777 (Feb 9, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> The trumpets are playing in their best sounding register from Bb middle of the treble staff to high Bb above the treble staff. The horns are an 8va below them. For a more piercing, brassy sound, even more powerful sound, you would double the trombones an 8va below the trumpets instead of the horns. The horns give it more of a hero sound thus "soaring." If you added a woodwind to the mix, the woodwind such as a clarinet would take the brassy edge off the brass sound thus making it sound more mellow.



Nice! Thank you for the tips.


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## Rodney Money (Feb 9, 2017)

mrd777 said:


> Nice! Thank you for the tips.


I got more if you need them.


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## mrd777 (Feb 9, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> I got more if you need them.


Save your time for now! I need to assimilate all the stuff in the thread first, and there are so many resources you guys have already given me! I'll need a lot of time to study lol :D


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## Rodney Money (Feb 9, 2017)

mrd777 said:


> Save your time for now! I need to assimilate all the stuff in the thread first, and there are so many resources you guys have already given me! I'll need a lot of time to study lol :D


Just remember this: Trumpets sound like Kings and Patriots, Horns sound like heroes, Trombones sound like God, and Tubas are the Foundations of the Earth. Strings added to brass melodies add expression and shimmer but you can still hear the separation of the brass and string tones. Woodwinds mixed with brass create a neutral sound where the woodwind timbre takes the edge off the brass and mellows them out. Low woodwinds add weight and are felt more than heard mixed with other lower instruments, and woodwinds tend to blend more into the string sound where the brass timbre is still separate from the strings. Woods sound great mixed with woods and metal to medal for example marimbas and clarinets and flutes and vibraphones.


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## Paul T McGraw (Feb 9, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> Trombones sound like God,



I am going to share this with my fellow trombone players. Not that they don't already think they sound like God. Most already think they do, because they can play louder than any other section!

You gave some great advice about layering and blending above.


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## Rodney Money (Feb 9, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> I am going to share this with my fellow trombone players. Not that they don't already think they sound like God. Most already think they do, because they can play louder than any other section!
> 
> You gave some great advice about layering and blending above.


I had a life changing experience one time writing for and conducting a trombone/ tuba ensemble for a few concerts. Part of me wishes if I could've done it all over again, I might have picked bass trombone as my principle instrument. I still hear Dr. McKinney, my trombone method's class teacher introduce his class like this, "Welcome students. This is the trombone. The most perfect instrument that has ever graced our existence. It is God's instrument."


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## Rodney Money (Feb 9, 2017)

For some unusual groupings and layering of instruments, feel free to check out my piece "Sins of the Old Testament" scored for Violin, Clarinet, Bassoon, and Tuba. There are parts where the tuba and bassoon blend into one instrument, clarinet and bassoon, and even all 4 of them in different 8va's. Crazy timbre colors.


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## mrd777 (Feb 9, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> Just remember this: Trumpets sound like Kings and Patriots, Horns sound like heroes, Trombones sound like God, and Tubas are the Foundations of the Earth. Strings added to brass melodies add expression and shimmer but you can still hear the separation of the brass and string tones. Woodwinds mixed with brass create a neutral sound where the woodwind timbre takes the edge off the brass and mellows them out. Low woodwinds add weight and are felt more than heard mixed with other lower instruments, and woodwinds tend to blend more into the string sound where the brass timbre is still separate from the strings. Woods sound great mixed with woods and metal to medal for example marimbas and clarinets and flutes and vibraphones.


Nice! Those are good examples, my friend.


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## mrd777 (Feb 9, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> I am going to share this with my fellow trombone players. Not that they don't already think they sound like God. Most already think they do, because they can play louder than any other section!
> 
> You gave some great advice about layering and blending above.


lol that's funny. So are you saying Trombones are the loudest in the orchestra?


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## Rodney Money (Feb 9, 2017)

mrd777 said:


> Nice! Those are good examples, my friend.


My absolute pleasure, and this is one of my favorite topics. It is almost like cooking. What kind of mood you want your melody to have is the secret to what ingredients you need.


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## mrd777 (Feb 9, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> My absolute pleasure, and this is one of my favorite topics. It is almost like cooking. What kind of mood you want your melody to have is the secret to what ingredients you need.


That's a great way to look at it. I'm going to remember that line about cooking forever.


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## Paul T McGraw (Feb 9, 2017)

mrd777 said:


> lol that's funny. So are you saying Trombones are the loudest in the orchestra?



Oh yes, the trombones can easily drown out any other single instrument section, with the possible exception of trumpets. Trumpets can usually make themselves heard. But trumpets seem to get tired and wear out their lip a lot sooner than trombones. 

So in an orchestra, the bones are constantly chided to play more softly, listen to the other sections, and BLEND. Then the conductor will say things like; "why can't you trombones be more like your brothers in the horn section? They know how to BLEND." Or the dreaded; "if you trombones don't control yourself we are going to play all Mozart and Haydn for our next concert!" That kind of threat will usually work. But in orchestra I was playing cello, so I didn't mind either way. I played trombone in the Salvation Army British style brass band.


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## Rodney Money (Feb 9, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Oh yes, the trombones can easily drown out any other single instrument section, with the possible exception of trumpets. Trumpets can usually make themselves heard. But trumpets seem to get tired and wear out their lip a lot sooner than trombones.
> 
> So in an orchestra, the bones are constantly chided to play more softly, listen to the other sections, and BLEND. Then the conductor will say things like; "why can't you trombones be more like your brothers in the horn section? They know how to BLEND." Or the dreaded; "if you trombones don't control yourself we are going to play all Mozart and Haydn for our next concert!" That kind of threat will usually work. But in orchestra I was playing cello, so I didn't mind either way. I played trombone in the Salvation Army British style brass band.


Oh my goodness! So true, and so funny! The most tortuous thing I ever had to do while playing trumpet was playing in Weber's Clarinet Concerto.


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## Paul T McGraw (Feb 9, 2017)

Famous advice to conductors by Richard Strauss "Never look at the trombones, it only encourages them." That is actually a misquote, but I like it anyway. In the real quote he didn't say trombones, he said brass, which includes the TRUMPETS but for some reason unknown to me, not the super spoiled everybody loves them horns. They NEVER get accused of being brass, even though they are brass. For some reason they have fooled people into thinking they are woodwinds, so everybody loves them. They even get to play in woodwind quintets.

Did you ever see a trombone in a woodwind quintet? Noooooooo, of course not. Trombones aren't good enough for a woodwind quintet, only the horn!


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## ghandizilla (Feb 9, 2017)




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## ZenFaced (Feb 9, 2017)

Great thread!!


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## leon chevalier (Feb 10, 2017)

Fantastic thread guys !  Please more stories !


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## ghandizilla (Feb 10, 2017)

To make additional suggestions, I boldly recommand the three "Colors of Melody" entries of Orchestra Sounds. Great stuff!


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 10, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Famous advice to conductors by Richard Strauss "Never look at the trombones, it only encourages them." That is actually a misquote, but I like it anyway. In the real quote he didn't say trombones, he said brass, which includes the TRUMPETS but for some reason unknown to me, not the super spoiled everybody loves them horns. They NEVER get accused of being brass, even though they are brass. For some reason they have fooled people into thinking they are woodwinds, so everybody loves them. They even get to play in woodwind quintets.
> 
> Did you ever see a trombone in a woodwind quintet? Noooooooo, of course not. Trombones aren't good enough for a woodwind quintet, only the horn!



That was actually a misquote only when it is attributed to Strauss. Wagner said it, and it is a matter of record. Anton Bruckner (Wagner's main sychophant) was delighted to no end over that quote.


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## Rodney Money (Feb 10, 2017)

ghandizilla said:


>


I so almost posted the same meme.


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## Rodney Money (Feb 10, 2017)

leon chevalier said:


> Fantastic thread guys !  Please more stories !


I've conducted everything under the sun. Don't get me started about telling you stories "dealing" with oboe players and 1st violinists, LOL.


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## KEnK (Feb 10, 2017)

q: _So are you saying Trombones are the loudest in the orchestra?_
a: _Oh yes, the trombones can easily drown out any other single instrument section, with the possible exception of trumpets._

Hmmm... To my ear, that distinction belongs to either the triangle or the Gran Casa.
You can still hear them quite distinctly even when the entire orchestra is blaring at fff.
but those aren't "real" instruments are they? 

k


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## ghandizilla (Feb 10, 2017)

My bet: nothing beats a kazoo. (We could even try to mix one into a VI orchestra and try out a Concerto Movement for Orchestra and Kazoo.)


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## robgb (Feb 10, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> For some unusual groupings and layering of instruments, feel free to check out my piece "Sins of the Old Testament" scored for Violin, Clarinet, Bassoon, and Tuba. There are parts where the tuba and bassoon blend into one instrument, clarinet and bassoon, and even all 4 of them in different 8va's. Crazy timbre colors.



Beautiful piece.


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## Rodney Money (Feb 10, 2017)

KEnK said:


> q: _So are you saying Trombones are the loudest in the orchestra?_
> a: _Oh yes, the trombones can easily drown out any other single instrument section, with the possible exception of trumpets._
> 
> Hmmm... To my ear, that distinction belongs to either the triangle or the Gran Casa.
> ...


I have had the luxury to perform experiments concerning this very topic within groups of people of different ages where it is commonly perceived that higher pitched instruments are louder, but the reality is that volume should be measured by decibels instead of "clarity" of sound. I have friends who have the music caliber to perform in the top orchestras in the world, but they are absolutely not interested instead devoting their music careers and art solely to solo and chamber works. One of my friends I asked was trumpet player Dr. Bill Jones who told me, "Contrary to what people think, an orchestra is very, very LOUD! I've never feared playing with the percussion behind me, but I know to this day I have hearing lost from sitting in front of the trombones."


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## Rodney Money (Feb 10, 2017)

robgb said:


> Beautiful piece.


Thank you, my friend, you are way too kind. I am debating what to do with this piece in the future because how it stands now due to the unusual orchestration it is not publishable.


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## KEnK (Feb 11, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> "Contrary to what people think, an orchestra is very, very LOUD! I've never feared playing with the percussion behind me, but I know to this day I have hearing lost from sitting in front of the trombones."


Personally I'm a jazz musician, so my live experience is almost invariably small groups-
But I did have the pleasure of sitting in front of the trumpets in a big band.
Fortunately no hearing loss- but it was at times painful, I had to duck.


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