# I wish Sibelius had a Quantize feature!!!



## Thonex (Nov 25, 2006)

I really like Sibelius... but I think one of the most glaring omissions is the lack of any kind of quantize feature. What were they thinking?? Especially considering the fact that you can record a live performance into Sibelius.

Ok... now that I've vented... what do you guys think is the quickest way to (for example) take a triplet figure that was interpreted as an eight and 2 sixteenths (bar 1) and turn it back into a regular beamed triplet (bar 2)?? 







If there was some kind of quantize feature, you could just "force" quantize it into a triplet... but you can't.. so what's the fastest way to do this kind of thing?


Thanks for any help.

T


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## Daryl (Nov 25, 2006)

When transferring MIDI files from Nuendo I often have 2 or 3 versions of the same file open at once with different import settings. Then if I come across a passage that needs something different, I can copy straight from that score.

If I'm going straight into Sibelius I never use Flexitime, but always play the notes with my left hand and the rhythms (on the keypad) with my right.

The big problem is that you are thinking of Sibelius as a bad sequencer, rather than a good notation program. Sequencers are linear, notation programs are not.

D


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## Thonex (Nov 25, 2006)

Daryl @ Sat Nov 25 said:


> When transferring MIDI files from Nuendo I often have 2 or 3 versions of the same file open at once with different import settings. Then if I come across a passage that needs something different, I can copy straight from that score.
> 
> If I'm going straight into Sibelius I never use Flexitime, but always play the notes with my left hand and the rhythms (on the keypad) with my right.
> 
> ...


Thanks Daryl,

So... are you saying the fastest way to change this is to erase what's there and re-enter it?... or grab it from an alternate import and hope that one of the alternate imports "captured" it correctly?

Thanks

T


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## Daryl (Nov 25, 2006)

In short, yes. If you are working on your own stuff, you will know what rhythms to look out for. It's when you are orchestrating someone else's music that the fun really starts....!

D


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## Craig Sharmat (Nov 26, 2006)

ouch!

that's why i keep 2 files up at the same time. A quantize feature would be helpful.


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## Daryl (Nov 26, 2006)

Craig Sharmat @ Sun Nov 26 said:


> ouch!
> 
> that's why i keep 2 files up at the same time. A quantize feature would be helpful.


Yes, but it's not possible the way that Sibelius currently works.

D


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## dfhage (Nov 27, 2006)

Just for your information, this is a feature that Finale has.

Regards

Dave Hage


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## Thonex (Nov 27, 2006)

dfhage @ Mon Nov 27 said:


> Just for your information, this is a feature that Finale has.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Dave Hage


Thanks Dave for comparing... and welcome to the forum!!!  

It's important to know which features are available in the different programs.

I think there are quite a few features Finale has that Sibelius probably doesn't... but this one I find particularly important.

Cheers,

T


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## dfhage (Nov 27, 2006)

I work with both Finale and Sibelius, but for midi stuff, in my opinion, Finale wins hands down because of quantise (they call it "re-transcribe") feature. Any bar or even part bar can be re-transcribed without re-importing the midi data. It also has a slightly more powerful tool set for "exploding" chords into staves for orchestration, especially when using the TG Tools plugin (www.tgtools.de). Hope this information helps.

Regards

Dave Hage[/img]


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## Patrick de Caumette (Nov 27, 2006)

Quantize is a must!


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## rJames (Nov 27, 2006)

I don't belong here, cause I am learning how to use Logic's score tools and don't own Sibelius.

Logic's score tools are much more powerful than I though at first.

Logic has an n-triplet tool. You set it on the note and it forces triplets.

I got something like this the other day and had to delete the notes and put them in again. Somehow the "reset" worked.


Maybe Sib has a similar tool.


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## Thonex (Nov 27, 2006)

rJames @ Mon Nov 27 said:


> I don't belong here, cause I am learning how to use Logic's score tools and don't own Sibelius.
> 
> Logic's score tools are much more powerful than I though at first.
> 
> ...



Nope.

Nuendo has n-tuplet tool too... you quantize to any tuplet and it shows up correctly.

T


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## Daryl (Nov 28, 2006)

T, I'm not trying to argue with you; I just telling you the way it is in Sibelius. In a sequencer the notation is derived from MIDI information. In Sibelius, the MIDI information is derived from the notation, so it is the other way round. I don't disagree that a quantise feature, if possible, would be nice. :wink: 

D


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## Thonex (Nov 28, 2006)

Daryl @ Tue Nov 28 said:


> T, I'm not trying to argue with you; I just telling you the way it is in Sibelius. In a sequencer the notation is derived from MIDI information. In Sibelius, the MIDI information is derived from the notation, so it is the other way round. I don't disagree that a quantise feature, if possible, would be nice. :wink:
> 
> D





taken from the Sibelius help search said:


> With Flexi-time, however, Sibelius detects if you're doing rubato and compensates accordingly. It *quantizes* automatically - there's no need to specify a quantization unit - and uses a smart algorithm that varies the quantization according to context. For instance, when you play short notes, Sibelius will quantize with a shorter unit than when you play long notes.




Sibelius does quantize with Flexi-time... so I believe the ability is there... they just need to implement it in a user controllable way. This is why all this is so frustrating to me.


... I know you're not trying to argue with me... I'm just trying to make you see the light :wink: 

Cheers,

T


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## Hermitage59 (Nov 28, 2006)

I have about two pages of complex rhythmic and articulation stuff in a 'single bar' template. With many different patterns, and combinations (e.g. Triplets, Quintuplets, etc.), it's easy enough to copy/paste into the working document, then adjust pitch. I'm also in the process of setting up complex scalic runs, trills, embellishments, etc to do the same. And like you Daryl, i leave flexitime alone, for the same reason of sketching/scoring in Sibelius, and performing in a sequencer (I don't use the live option either). You're completely right (IMHO) to make the distinction between the linear nature of sequencers, versus the 'sketchpad/ laying out of 'written' score in Sibelius. (Vertical nature?)

All this depends on working method too, and after some time trying to 'make' Sibelius behave like a notated sequencer plugin (including patchbays, etc), i gave up, and separated the two tasks, laying out and performing. Now it's a small SF2 file in Sibelius that gives me a quick idea of playback if i want it, export the midi file or files, and then work on performance in a DAW.
It's a lot quicker (for me) and a lot less stress on the system. 

I can certainly see the strength of including a quantize feature, but to be frank, my current method of working has proved quick enough.

It's interesting Daryl that you play in left handed and use the keypad with the right. I do the complete reverse, as i'm left handed! (I use a cheap usb standalone numeric keypad i bought here. Works a treat. I'm considering a more robust 'user definable' version, so i can program each key to my personal preference, and swap the layout left to right.)

Regards,
Alex.


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## Thonex (Nov 28, 2006)

Hermitage59 @ Tue Nov 28 said:


> I have about two pages of complex rhythmic and articulation stuff in a 'single bar' template. With many different patterns, and combinations (e.g. Triplets, Quintuplets, etc.), it's easy enough to copy/paste into the working document, then adjust pitch.



HI Hermitage,

Thanks for sharing that trick... but to me, that's a work-around for a feature that's lacking.

To be able to assign a quantize value to a key command and hit the appropriate Key Command.. is much... much faster.

T


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## Hermitage59 (Nov 28, 2006)

Thonex @ Tue Nov 28 said:


> Hermitage59 @ Tue Nov 28 said:
> 
> 
> > I have about two pages of complex rhythmic and articulation stuff in a 'single bar' template. With many different patterns, and combinations (e.g. Triplets, Quintuplets, etc.), it's easy enough to copy/paste into the working document, then adjust pitch.
> ...




T, i agree it's a workaround, and you may well be right with a quantize key command.
In reality, i doubt it will ever happen, as Sibelius continue to ignore the fundamentals, like cres/decres that actually play as 'written' instead of having to apply a clumsy plugin. That's just bolt on laziness in my opinion, instead of rewriting the program. Another reason why Sib 3 was the last update I purchased, and it will stay that way. :shock: 

:smile:


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## Daryl (Nov 28, 2006)

You guys still don't get it do you? There_is_nothing_to quantise. The import MIDI information has already been quantised by importing it. All other MIDI information is derived from the notation. Therefore you are looking for an easy way to change the notation, which is not the same as quantising. This is why in a sequencer you can change the notation but leave the playback the same. In Sibelius this would not be possible, as changing the notation automatically changes the playback. This must not be confused with the "live" information that can be switched on or off.

Regarding the use of cresc. and dim. plugs, I agree that this is not a good way to work, but with the current system there is no other real option. Controller data like this is continuous, and as Sibelius is not time based (not being a sequencer) there is no way to access this to draw it in, like you would in controller lanes in a sequencer. I'm not trying to dissuade you from wanting things in Sibelius, but there are limitations precisely because Sibelius is a notation program.

D


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## sbkp (Nov 28, 2006)

Daryl @ Tue Nov 28 said:


> You guys still don't get it do you? There_is_nothing_to quantise. The import MIDI information has already been quantised by importing it.



I don't think that's true. I was sent a project that had been played into a sequencer and exported as MIDI. I imported the MIDI file into Sibelius, then started writing other parts. On playback, the newly notated parts did _not_ sync exactly with the imported parts, even though they _looked_ identical.

So I think Sibelius is actually maintaining the un-quantized MIDI timings and showing a particular representation of them, based on the quantize settings when imported.

EDIT: Yeah, I'm sure it's not quantizing the actual data, and only the displò›   K?d›   K?e›   K?f›   K?g›   K?h›   K?i›   K?j›   K?k›   K?l›   K?m›   K?


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## Daryl (Nov 28, 2006)

sbkp @ Tue Nov 28 said:


> Daryl @ Tue Nov 28 said:
> 
> 
> > You need to look up "Live Playback" in the manual.
> ...


Yes, but this one was with you..........!

D


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## Thonex (Nov 28, 2006)

Daryl @ Tue Nov 28 said:


> What you are really asking for is an option to re-import the live playback data for small sections, specify the quantising just for this section and then insert it in the score. Am I correct?
> 
> D



No... that's too inefficient. What I'd like is for it to take the notes I select and apply the quantization to only those notes.


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## sbkp (Nov 28, 2006)

Daryl @ Tue Nov 28 said:


> What you are really asking for is an option to re-import the live playback data for small sections, specify the quantising just for this section and then insert it in the score. Am I correct?
> 
> D



It seems to me that it's not necessary to re-import the data, only to _re-interpret_ them. The playback timings are clearly not the same as what the notation is showing. Now I understand what you meant about Live Playback, by the way. The manual confirms what I was trying to say -- the originally imported timings are kept, and the notation is separate from that.

I know Sibelius won't re-interpret those "live" timings to create new notation. And I don't know if Manuscript has access to the live timings, either, in order to be able to write a plugin to re-enter the notes.

So there we are


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## Daryl (Nov 28, 2006)

Thonex @ Tue Nov 28 said:


> Daryl @ Tue Nov 28 said:
> 
> 
> > What you are really asking for is an option to re-import the live playback data for small sections, specify the quantising just for this section and then insert it in the score. Am I correct?
> ...


But you can't quantise something that doesn't exist.....

D


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## Daryl (Nov 28, 2006)

sbkp @ Tue Nov 28 said:


> Daryl @ Tue Nov 28 said:
> 
> 
> > What you are really asking for is an option to re-import the live playback data for small sections, specify the quantising just for this section and then insert it in the score. Am I correct?
> ...


Yes, the two things are separate. You can edit Live Playback and you can edit the notation. You can choose to playback from either of these section by section, but they are not connected in the way that they would be in a sequencer. My understanding is that the notation is derived during import and thereafter is a separate entity.

D


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## Thonex (Nov 28, 2006)

Daryl @ Tue Nov 28 said:


> Thonex @ Tue Nov 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Tue Nov 28 said:
> ...



But they do exist... otherwise how could you copy them on to another part and have it play back?

Daryl, I think you understand the feature request. Whether they will ever offer such a feature is another story.

Cheers,

T


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## Daryl (Nov 28, 2006)

Thonex @ Tue Nov 28 said:


> Daryl @ Tue Nov 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Thonex @ Tue Nov 28 said:
> ...


Of course I understand what you (and many others) want. I'm just trying to explain that Sibelius doesn't work the way you think it does. As I said above, there are two separate strands; the notation is only derived from the Live Playback on import (AFAIK), so therefore there is nothing left to quantise. When you switch Live Playback off, the playback is derived from the MIDI generated by the notation. In this case it only exists as notation, so there is nothing to quantise. As far as Sibelius is concerned, the rhythms are correct until you decide to change them. There may be some mileage in asking for a feature to force certain notation patterns at will (if this could work) but it is not the same as quantise.

Anyway, you can lead a horse to water, so I'm outta here.....

D


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## marco berco (Dec 30, 2006)

Thonex @ 25/11/2006 said:


> I really like Sibelius... but I think one of the most glaring omissions is the lack of any kind of quantize feature. What were they thinking?? Especially considering the fact that you can record a live performance into Sibelius.
> 
> Ok... now that I've vented... what do you guys think is the quickest way to (for example) take a triplet figure that was interpreted as an eight and 2 sixteenths (bar 1) and turn it back into a regular beamed triplet (bar 2)??
> 
> ...



Hello Thonex,

I am a completely newbie in this forum so I hope my post will arrive to you on time and not to late.

In Sibelius you can quantize two ways, in the Play menu, you have the submenu Live pklayback, when it is "on" it let inchanged the way you played the piece, when it is off Sibelius doesn't take care of how you played (it applies its average dynamics and plays what you have been playing right on time).

The other way is to select the menu "Window", submenu "Properties" and once there the menu "Playback", once you are in "Playback" menu, choose the "Live start position" square icon and set the parameter to zero, the result is to quantize only notes or bars you selected, from the entire work to a single note.

I hope this will help!

Marc


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## Thonex (Dec 30, 2006)

marco berco @ Sat Dec 30 said:


> Thonex @ 25/11/2006 said:
> 
> 
> > I really like Sibelius... but I think one of the most glaring omissions is the lack of any kind of quantize feature. What were they thinking?? Especially considering the fact that you can record a live performance into Sibelius.
> ...



Thanks Marco,

I'll check out your solutions soon... right now I'm in the middle of deadlines though.

Thanks for this.. it could be very useful... 

.... and welcome to the forum!!!!


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## misterbee (Dec 30, 2006)

Sibelius does quantize. If it didn't, chances are good your hand input scores would be riddled with 128th notes as it tried to interpret your playing "accurately".

I'm with the person who says there's nothing to quantize. Your first phrase already meets the requirements of the scoring quantize values. What you want is not to quantize, but to change the note value at will. If you click on the 1/8th note, you can change it into a tuplet. From there, you need to input the pitches of the second and third notes again, but it's not really a big deal unless your track is full of 1/8th followed by 2 1/16ths. In that case, maybe you should change the way you're inputting notes.


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## Thonex (Dec 30, 2006)

misterbee @ Sat Dec 30 said:


> Sibelius does quantize. If it didn't, chances are good your hand input scores would be riddled with 128th notes as it tried to interpret your playing "accurately".
> 
> I'm with the person who says there's nothing to quantize. Your first phrase already meets the requirements of the scoring quantize values. What you want is not to quantize, but to change the note value at will. If you click on the 1/8th note, you can change it into a tuplet. From there, you need to input the pitches of the second and third notes again, but it's not really a big deal unless your track is full of 1/8th followed by 2 1/16ths. In that case, maybe you should change the way you're inputting notes.



No... as my picture illustrates, sometimes Sibelius incorrectly displays the Correctly quantized notes as something else... like an 1/8 and two 1/16ths as opposed to an 1/8 Triplet.

This has happened to me time and time again when opening 100% fully quantized midi parts into Sibelius.
What I'd like is to be able to force those notes to be displayed as triplets without having to erase them and then re-input them by hand. A sort of Graphic Quantize if you will... or a real quantize to what Sibelius "recognizes" as a triplet.

Cheers,

T


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## misterbee (Dec 30, 2006)

Thonex @ Sat Dec 30 said:


> No... as my picture illustrates, sometimes Sibelius incorrectly displays the Correctly quantized notes as something else... like an 1/8 and two 1/16ths as opposed to an 1/8 Triplet.



Actually, I don't think that's clear from your post, but...



> This has happened to me time and time again when opening 100% fully quantized midi parts into Sibelius.



Ah, I see. It might have been better if you explained that in your first post. In fact, rather than saying "one of the most glaring omissions is the lack of any kind of quantize feature.", you might say "there appears to be a bug in the quantizing/importing of midi files with triplets".

Can you replicate it or does it seem to be a random problem? I just created a few bars of triplet 1/8th notes in Cubase, exported them as a MIDI file and brought them into Sibelius. They all came in as triplet 1/8th notes, exactly as they were written. You're saying that with parts that are EXACT triplet 1/8th notes aren't coming in correctly... right? 



> What I'd like is to be able to force those notes to be displayed as triplets without having to erase them and then re-input them by hand. A sort of Graphic Quantize if you will... or a real quantize to what Sibelius "recognizes" as a triplet.



That seems reasonable. It actually goes part of the way (it will create triplets, but it won't keep any but the first pitched note), and yes, it'd be nice if it went all the way. It seems to me that this is the kind of intelligence that has been introduced through the various versions of Sibelius... maybe you should send them a feature request and it might appear in the next version.


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## Thonex (Dec 30, 2006)

misterbee @ Sat Dec 30 said:


> Ah, I see. It might have been better if you explained that in your first post. In fact, rather than saying "one of the most glaring omissions is the lack of any kind of quantize feature.", you might say "there appears to be a bug in the quantizing/importing of midi files with triplets"



I think it *is* glaring omission... As far as I know... except for Marco's post which I haven't had time to try yet, there is no way to quantize notes in Sibelius in the way that Quantize is used throughout the industry. And if there really is, even Sibelius Tech Support isn't aware of it.

Finale has it.... Sibelius should try to include it... especially now that Avid bought them.

My opinion.

T


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## sbkp (Dec 30, 2006)

misterbee,

The problem is that Sibelius won't let you _re_-quantize a section. When you import MIDI, you set how it will quantize to create the notation. If you have a piece that has 8th-note triplets, sixteenths, 16th-note quintuplets, sextuplets, septuplets, and 32nd notes, it just won't get them all right (or at least I don't know how to).

And since you can't re-quantize a selection, you're stuck with re-notating the bits it got wrong.

- Stefan


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## sbkp (Dec 30, 2006)

marco berco @ Sat Dec 30 said:


> In Sibelius you can quantize two ways, in the Play menu, you have the submenu Live pklayback, when it is "on" it let inchanged the way you played the piece, when it is off Sibelius doesn't take care of how you played (it applies its average dynamics and plays what you have been playing right on time).
> 
> The other way is to select the menu "Window", submenu "Properties" and once there the menu "Playback", once you are in "Playback" menu, choose the "Live start position" square icon and set the parameter to zero, the result is to quantize only notes or bars you selected, from the entire work to a single note.
> 
> ...



Unless I'm mistaken, both those things (changing "Live Playback" in different ways) have only to do with the playback of the part. That's not the issue. The issue is to re-create the _notation_ of the part. So if you played something in between 8th triplets and 8th-16th-16th and Sibelius chose the wrong one, you could select the three notes and quantize it the other way and rewrite the notation automatically.

- Stefan


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## sbkp (Dec 30, 2006)

misterbee @ Sat Dec 30 said:


> Ah, I see. It might have been better if you explained that in your first post. In fact, rather than saying "one of the most glaring omissions is the lack of any kind of quantize feature.", you might say "there appears to be a bug in the quantizing/importing of midi files with triplets".



Except it's not a bug. Thonex wants to requantize a part on a different grid. This was the first post, and (imho) it was perfectly clear. But I want the same feature and have the same problem, so I already knew what he was talking about... 



Thonex said:


> what do you guys think is the quickest way to (for example) take a triplet figure that was interpreted as an eight and 2 sixteenths (bar 1) and turn it back into a regular beamed triplet (bar 2)??
> 
> If there was some kind of quantize feature, you could just "force" quantize it into a triplet... but you can't.. so what's the fastest way to do this kind of thing?


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## misterbee (Dec 30, 2006)

sbkp @ Sat Dec 30 said:


> Except it's not a bug. Thonex wants to requantize a part on a different grid. This was the first post, and (imho) it was perfectly clear. But I want the same feature and have the same problem, so I already knew what he was talking about...



It certainly isn't perfectly clear since you and he are offering different ideas of what the problem is. According to him, the problem stems from the fact that parts that have already been quantized to triplets in a sequencer are coming in with the wrong note values. If this is correct, it is a bug. Personally, I don't think it is correct, but I don't have any of the "offending files" so I wouldn't know.

It's also not quantizing. It's revaluing the note lengths. There's a difference. One (quantizing) requires that the sequencer only know a specific grid, and make the notes line up with that grid. The other (revaluing the note lengths) requires some kind of intelligence to know what you want. It will always require a manual process because how the hell is your sequencer supposed to know that you want two notes with very different values (one twice the other) to be the same? This will always require you to tell it. Try it in your favourite sequencer - put in an 1/8th note followed by 2 1/16th notes. Put the quantize to 1/8th triplets. Does it give you 3 1/8th triplets? Probably not.





Thonex said:


> what do you guys think is the quickest way to (for example) take a triplet figure that was interpreted as an eight and 2 sixteenths (bar 1) and turn it back into a regular beamed triplet (bar 2)??



Select the first note. Press Command (Control?) and '3'. Type the name of each note in the triplet (or press the right arrow key and type in the name of the second two). Five key strokes. How many does it take to do it in Finale? I realize this isn't as simple with chords.


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## Thonex (Dec 30, 2006)

Hi Mrbee,

I'm not trying to be intransigent here. Every major midi sequencing and notation program that I have tried had a standard quantize feature. When I called Tech Support at Sibelius, they said "we are not a sequencer..." and that was pretty much it.

Even something like swing eights being quantized as straight eights with the push of 1 key (yes 1 key in Nuendo) will make the part readable for a jazz player. I just found it lacking that I had to at least re-enter all the note's pitches as opposed to just hitting an 1/8T key command.

For single parts, I use Nuendo (it works in a pinch).... much easier... but the moment I have to link dynamics to multiple parts.... then Nuendo blows and I have to use Sibelius. I import the 100% quantized standard midi files and tuplets like the ones showed are often (almost always) read incorrectly. 
For the record, I don't own Finale, but you can read about how it handles Quantization earlier on this thread.

Cheers,

T


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## misterbee (Dec 31, 2006)

Thonex @ Sun Dec 31 said:


> Hi Mrbee,
> I'm not trying to be intransigent here. Every major midi sequencing and notation program that I have tried had a standard quantize feature. When I called Tech Support at Sibelius, they said "we are not a sequencer..." and that was pretty much it.



I understand, and I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I wouldn't put too much into what Tech Support say. They are not the developers, looking after the interests of users. Try and submit it as a feature request, citing that it is available in other similar products (Finale) as well as major sequencers. I have no idea how its implemented in Finale, so might want to make sure its what you're looking for before you quote it. 

I'm not fighting you here, but you have to face it. Right now, the feature you want doesn't exist in Sibelius, so there's little point continue to complain about it. You have a couple of options. Look for a work around and deal with it or jump ship to Finale.

All products have their strengths and weaknesses. I do think you're onto something here and it seems like something Sibelius would consider for a future version. Make sure that Sibelius know that it is a big deal. They'll do something about it.

I haven't used Finale in years (I have a demo version at work of a recent version to help a user through their problems with it, but never used it myself), but I have played gigs where scores have been hastily written with it. I'm not sure whether its just a user problem, but the parts I've had to play and often sightread on the gig have been awful. Rests missing, signs in the wrong place (often floating between staves) and where are the multi-rests? Often they're littered with garbage (like the tempo marking repeated over and over throughout the whole score), repeats missing... etc. As I said, this could be just misuse by the arranger, but I've seen it from several arrangers. I would just make sure that Finale lives up to your expectations in every way if you have any intention of jumping ship. 



Rich


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