# NVMe SSD and thunderbolt 3



## dwaterman (Dec 31, 2019)

So I received my new MacBook Pro 16inch a couple of days ago. The Sabrent NVMe drive I bought a couple of weeks prior was inserted into the Sabrent USB3.1 enclosure I bought with it. I formatted it on an older laptop running Mojave and transferred my entire sample library collection onto it. Everything was working ok until I plugged it into the new Mac when it arrived, and it didn't show up. 
After a lot of researching I think it's the enclosure that is not compatible, as it's not thunderbolt 3 compatible. 
The drive is this one


and the enclosure is this one


My question is have any of you used NVMe drives like this one, and what enclosure is right for the laptop I have now. 

Thanks

Dov


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## Dr.Quest (Jan 1, 2020)

I have 3 NVMe drives in external enclosures for my samples running fine. I use USB ports however. Have you tried plugging it into a USB3 port? From what I understand Thunderbolt 3 and USB 3 are not the same even though they use the same connector.


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## dwaterman (Jan 1, 2020)

Dr.Quest said:


> I have 3 NVMe drives in external enclosures for my samples running fine. I use USB ports however. Have you tried plugging it into a USB3 port? From what I understand Thunderbolt 3 and USB 3 are not the same even though they use the same connector.



They are not the same, as I have discovered. The enclosure I got does not support thunderbolt 3, which is what the 16inch has. Will need to purchase another enclosure which is a TB3 interface. Was looking at this one:

Rivo Thunderbolt 3 to M.2 Adapter Enclosure for M Key NVME SSD, with Black Aluminum Alloy Case and SSD Converter (SSD Not Included), Including Thunderbolt 3 Cable and Silicone Thermal Pads 
Wondering if anyone has had some experience with it.


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## Prockamanisc (Jan 1, 2020)

Something in the neighborhood of this: https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/express-4m2


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## ChrisL (Jan 1, 2020)

I can’t speak to your specific issues, but the USB-C ports on the new MacBook Pros support (or at least are supposed to support) both thunderbolt 3 and USB 3.1. I believe that's been the case ever since Apple started including USB-C ports on their machines.

I have a 2018 Mac Mini running Catalina with a similar set up: a 2TB Intel 660p inside a Fledging Shell USB 3.1 enclosure, plugged into a USB-C port, and it's been working very well so far. When I first set it up, I was having issues with streaming performance not being consistent (lots of pops and clicks), but I reformatted the SSD to use the newer Apple File System (APFS) and haven't had any problems since.

When you plug in the enclosure, does the disk show up in the Disk Utility at all? If it appears there but doesn't mount then maybe there's some incompatibility with the file system?


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## khollister (Jan 1, 2020)

The TB3 ports on recent Macs also support USB-C (USB-3.1). I'm a little confused on the enclosure you have since it appears to have a USB-C connector (suggesting a native USB-C device) but the photo suggests the other end of the cable is a USB3 connector with a USB-C adapter. That would suggest to me this is a native USB3 device - not USB-C. That said, it should still work with the ports on a MBP 16 since USB-C will supports USB3/2 devices.

How did you have it connected to the previous laptop - USB3 port (Type A connector)? There may be a problem with the USB-C adapter. Try picking up a USB-C cable (native USB-C/TB3 connectors on both ends) and try that.


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## Technostica (Jan 1, 2020)

A USB type C connector can be used by TB3, USB 3.x and USB 2.0 ports.
So assume nothing and find out what the port actually supports.
TB3 always supports USB 3.x by design I believe and it would be a poor show to break that support.


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## dwaterman (Jan 1, 2020)

ChrisL said:


> I can’t speak to your specific issues, but the USB-C ports on the new MacBook Pros support (or at least are supposed to support) both thunderbolt 3 and USB 3.1. I believe that's been the case ever since Apple started including USB-C ports on their machines.
> 
> I have a 2018 Mac Mini running Catalina with a similar set up: a 2TB Intel 660p inside a Fledging Shell USB 3.1 enclosure, plugged into a USB-C port, and it's been working very well so far. When I first set it up, I was having issues with streaming performance not being consistent (lots of pops and clicks), but I reformatted the SSD to use the newer Apple File System (APFS) and haven't had any problems since.
> 
> When you plug in the enclosure, does the disk show up in the Disk Utility at all? If it appears there but doesn't mount then maybe there's some incompatibility with the file system?


Hi, when I plug in the drive enclosure to the new laptop it just doesn't show up at all. I got the drive and the enclosure a few days before the laptop so I had formatted the drive on my old MacBook Pro (2013) running Mojave, and everything works absolutely fine on that and only main cheesegrater rig. Its just with the new machine that the drive+enclosure are non existent.


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## dwaterman (Jan 1, 2020)

khollister said:


> The TB3 ports on recent Macs also support USB-C (USB-3.1). I'm a little confused on the enclosure you have since it appears to have a USB-C connector (suggesting a native USB-C device) but the photo suggests the other end of the cable is a USB3 connector with a USB-C adapter. That would suggest to me this is a native USB3 device - not USB-C. That said, it should still work with the ports on a MBP 16 since USB-C will supports USB3/2 devices.
> 
> How did you have it connected to the previous laptop - USB3 port (Type A connector)? There may be a problem with the USB-C adapter. Try picking up a USB-C cable (native USB-C/TB3 connectors on both ends) and try that.


ON the previous computer, it is attached via the USB3 input. I've just tried with another USB-C cable on both end, but still no go. Weirdly enough the little blue light on the drive enclosure is blue so some power is going to it.


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## dwaterman (Jan 1, 2020)

Technostica said:


> A USB type C connector can be used by TB3, USB 3.x and USB 2.0 ports.
> So assume nothing and find out what the port actually supports.
> TB3 always supports USB 3.x by design I believe and it would be a poor show to break that support.


Yes but is a USB type C cable going to be always TB. There is no indication on the cable that came with the drive that it is Thunderbolt. Just the little USB symbol. 
I'm awaiting a new TB cable tomorrow- since I don't actually have one, and will give this one last go before I send it back.


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## khollister (Jan 1, 2020)

Have you left it connected for 10-15 minutes? I have sometimes had external drives take a long time after connecting before they mount if they were formated on a different computer. In my case they were HDD and I could hear the drive heads working for several minutes before they mounted.

Does Disk Utility see it?


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## dwaterman (Jan 1, 2020)

Oddly enough Sabrent support have been supportive although just a tad bit clueless as to Macs! Apparently they have just released a firmware update but you can only do this via windows. The guy at the other end couldn't quite understand why I didn't have a PC.


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## khollister (Jan 1, 2020)

dwaterman said:


> Yes but is a USB type C cable going to be always TB. There is no indication on the cable that came with the drive that it is Thunderbolt. Just the little USB symbol.
> I'm awaiting a new TB cable tomorrow- since I don't actually have one, and will give this one last go before I send it back.



You don't need a TB cable, only USB-C. Two different protocols that share a common connector and bus controller chip. All TB3 cables support USB-C, but not all USB-C cables support TB3.


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## dwaterman (Jan 1, 2020)

khollister said:


> You don't need a TB cable, only USB-C. Two different protocols that share a common connector and bus controller chip. All TB3 cables support USB-C, but not all USB-C cables support TB3.


My point exactly, the cables I have are all USB-C. I don't have a TB cable around to check it out- one arriving tomorrow!


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## dwaterman (Jan 1, 2020)

khollister said:


> Have you left it connected for 10-15 minutes? I have sometimes had external drives take a long time after connecting before they mount if they were formated on a different computer. In my case they were HDD and I could hear the drive heads working for several minutes before they mounted.
> 
> Does Disk Utility see it?


No it's not showing up at all in disk Utility


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## khollister (Jan 1, 2020)

dwaterman said:


> My point exactly, the cables I have are all USB-C. I don't have a TB cable around to check it out- one arriving tomorrow!



OK, but you don;t need a TB cable for this, only USB-C (because the device is USB, not TB).


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## khollister (Jan 1, 2020)

dwaterman said:


> No it's not showing up at all in disk Utility



Leave it connected for a while (at least 30 minutes) and see what happens.


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## dwaterman (Jan 1, 2020)

khollister said:


> OK, but you don;t need a TB cable for this, only USB-C (because the device is USB, not TB).





khollister said:


> Leave it connected for a while (at least 30 minutes) and see what happens.


The drive is now blinking, as if something is being read on it, so yes maybe I'll give it 30 mins of connection. Thanks!


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## khollister (Jan 1, 2020)

Different subject - while there would be little practical difference in a USB3 vs USB3.1(USB-C) enclosure for a SATA SSD, you might think of getting a native USB-C enclosures for the NVME - the performance should be greater unless the NVME blade is a dog.


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## dwaterman (Jan 1, 2020)

khollister said:


> Different subject - while there would be little practical difference in a USB3 vs USB3.1(USB-C) enclosure for a SATA SSD, you might think of getting a native USB-C enclosures for the NVME - the performance should be greater unless the NVME blade is a dog.


Hi, I thought that's what I have got-

As mentioned I don't think its the SSD that's the problem, It all seems to be flying using my other laptop. I have 800GB of samples on it and the performance seems to be fine.
There is no mention however on Sabrent website that this is works exclusively with thunderbolt 3 enabled devices, whereas other enclosure manufacturers seem to specify that, as is with this one...

which I've ordered. We'll see... oh the joys of Amazon :-\


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## khollister (Jan 1, 2020)

The enclosure you have is a USB3.0 interface - good for about 500-550MB/s (SATA3 speeds). USB3.1 (USB-C) is good for double that - about 1-1.2 GB/s. A thunderbolt 3 bus is good for 4X USB-C - 40Gb/s, which is about 5 GB/s assuming no other TB devices on the chain are active at the same time. The TB3 enclosure you ordered states effective read speeds of 2.5 GB/s - this is not unusual since many TB controllers are the limiting factor, not the theoretical speeed of the bus protocol itself.

Not sure about your particular blade, but high end ones like Samsung 970 Pro's can do 3+ GB/s reads, so even USB-C might be a compromise


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## Technostica (Jan 1, 2020)

dwaterman said:


> Yes but is a USB type C cable going to be always TB. There is no indication on the cable that came with the drive that it is Thunderbolt. Just the little USB symbol.
> I'm awaiting a new TB cable tomorrow- since I don't actually have one, and will give this one last go before I send it back.


If you are plugging a USB device into a TB3 port then you only require an appropriate type of USB cable, not a TB3 certified cable. 
TB3 has a higher bandwidth than USB so the cables have to support that and are more expensive. 
There are multiple variants of USB 3 and the bandwidth starts at 5Gbs and goes up to 20Gbs in the newest variant. 
TB3 is good for 40Gbs and supports USB 3 up to 10Gbs. 
So using a TB3 device will give you up to 4 times the bandwidth over a USB device on that same port. 

To get the maximum performance out of USB via a TB3 port make sure you use a device that is rated for 10Gbs and also a certified cable for that speed. 
Some type C USB cables are only rated for USB 2 0 speeds and it's a bit of a minefield. 

10Gbs is very slow for an NVMe drive so there's nothing to be gained in maximum transfer speeds in buying the best SSD unless you use a TB3 enclosure. 
In practice you'll get a maximum of about 1GBs using USB via a TB3 port. Just make sure the enclosure isn't a basic 5Gbs one.


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## Technostica (Jan 1, 2020)

khollister said:


> Different subject - while there would be little practical difference in a USB3 vs USB3.1(USB-C) enclosure for a SATA SSD, you might think of getting a native USB-C enclosures for the NVME - the performance should be greater unless the NVME blade is a dog.


Type C doesn't guarantee 10Gbs so you need to check that the enclosure and cable are certified for that speed.


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## dwaterman (Jan 1, 2020)

Technostica said:


> If you are plugging a USB device into a TB3 port then you only require an appropriate type of USB cable, not a TB3 certified cable.
> TB3 has a higher bandwidth than USB so the cables have to support that and are more expensive.
> There are multiple variants of USB 3 and the bandwidth starts at 5Gbs and goes up to 20Gbs in the newest variant.
> TB3 is good for 40Gbs and supports USB 3 up to 10Gbs.
> ...


So I ordered a different enclosure- 

Which states it's a thunderbolt3 with reads of 40GBs. It still doesn't clear up why the drive is not even detected by the new laptop. I've cable tested it on 3 other older machines with USB type C ports and it show up perfectly. It is a mine field for sure.


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## khollister (Jan 1, 2020)

Technostica said:


> Type C doesn't guarantee 10Gbs so you need to check that the enclosure and cable are certified for that speed.



Yeah, technically USB-C refers to the physical connector and USB3/USB3.1 gen1/etc are the protocols available thru the connector. You are correct that there are some cheap USB-C implementations that are really USB3, not USB3.1. THe USB naming conventions after USB2 is a cluster-f**k.


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## dwaterman (Jan 1, 2020)

khollister said:


> Yeah, technically USB-C refers to the physical connector and USB3/USB3.1 gen1/etc are the protocols available thru the connector. You are correct that there are some cheap USB-C implementations that are really USB3, not USB3.1. THe USB naming conventions after USB2 is a cluster-f**k.


Great start to the year- Happy new year! And thanks for the advice!


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## khollister (Jan 1, 2020)

Still no joy on the mounting the drive after leaving it connected?


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## Dr.Quest (Jan 1, 2020)

I have had problems with Sabrent enclosures not mounting or disconnecting randomly. They never supported what they said they would. I don't use Sabrent enclosures anymore.


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## Technostica (Jan 1, 2020)

khollister said:


> Yeah, technically USB-C refers to the physical connector and USB3/USB3.1 gen1/etc are the protocols available thru the connector. You are correct that there are some cheap USB-C implementations that are really USB3, not USB3.1. THe USB naming conventions after USB2 is a cluster-f**k.


For sure. 
USB 3.0 was renamed to 3.1 gen 1 and the newer 10Gbs variant is 3.1 gen 2.
That changes again with version 3.2 so the names are changed again. 
A big issue is that many cables are rated for slower speeds and that is often not obvious. 
Gone are the days of buying cheap USB cables if you require maximum performance and compatibility.


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## dwaterman (Jan 1, 2020)

khollister said:


> Still no joy on the mounting the drive after leaving it connected?


No joy.


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## dwaterman (Jan 1, 2020)

Dr.Quest said:


> I have had problems with Sabrent enclosures not mounting or disconnecting randomly. They never supported what they said they would. I don't use Sabrent enclosures anymore.


Yeah, Support seemed pretty clueless tbh. Do you use sabrent ssd's though?


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## Dr.Quest (Jan 1, 2020)

dwaterman said:


> Yeah, Support seemed pretty clueless tbh. Do you use sabrent ssd's though?


I haven't yet although I'm not opposed to them.


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## chimuelo (Jan 1, 2020)

I bought a cheap Sabrent USB Enclosure for clones and storage.
it accepts HDD, Hybrids and SSDs.
For years it’s served me well.

No experience with support since I never needed it.

Plan on buying their NVMe after a little more time to watch it’s use by Phison lovers like me.

Still a big MyDigitalSSD, Samsung fan.
But love risk takers and folks who go cheap in the consumer markets to gain ground, then head towards innovation and enterprise products.
Learned that after years of cheap fast crappy boards from ASRock.
They brought us NVMe long before everyone else, and even had Thunderbolt back with the Z97 chips.

If something needs support and they don’t respond, I dump them.
Plenty other hungry players.

Recent example is Studio Electronics. 22 year loyal buyer. They released an Ext Filter for the SE-02 that looked and sounded great.
I asked several questions, nobody ever replied.
Still love SE and family, but didn’t buy that unit.

SE-1, SE-1X, Code 8 OD, 2 x SE-02’s.....hope it doesn’t end there.
That was a great long run.


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