# 88 keys + 7.5cm or thinner.



## Billy Palmer (Dec 19, 2019)

Hi all!

I'm looking for a very specific recommendation please... something with the following:

A) 88 keys
B) Must be thiner than 7.5cm (lightweight and small form factor also preferred)
C) Reasonably accurate velocity response (hammer/synth/semi-weighted are all fine, again I'm just looking for an accurate velocity curve)
D) Inclusion of mod wheel and pitch bend very much preferred.
E) As cheap as possible, whilst meeting the above. I'm mostly looking at budget to mid-range options.


In my search I've come across:
- 'iKeyboard 8 nano' https://iconproaudio.com/product/ikeyboard-8nano/ (almost what I'm after, but the reviews keep mentioning a lack of low velocity response)
-MAudio's Keystation 88 (both weighted and non weighted versions)
-Nektar's LX88


Any advice appreciated!


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## EvilDragon (Dec 19, 2019)

7.5 cm is something I almost never saw on 88 key boards.

Maybe check out Casio PX-5S... It's not 7.5 cm but it should provide the best response out of anything you've listed.


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## charlieclouser (Dec 20, 2019)

I have used the M-Audio Keystation 88ex for years, in various versions including the Alesis Q-88 which is a rebadged version. I love it due to the compact depth and height, and the velocity range is fine for me, but it's not what I'd call "a performer's keyboard". It's synth-action and a tiny bit "clacky" but I don't mind. I specifically do NOT want a big, slow, heavy, hammer-action keyboard. It's durable and light and does what it says on the tin.

I was intrigued by the Nektar LX-88 but I played one at NAMM and it felt a bit worse than the Keystation - the keys felt a bit "loose" and they seemed to have a shallower travel depth. Plus I need the center to be empty as that's my wrist rest for the computer keyboard which I place above the music keyboard, so the LX-88 was a no-go for me.

- I had not seen the Icon before, and I will make sure to check it out at NAMM this January. Given the somewhat janky construction of their fader controllers I'm not too hopeful but you never know.

- There's also the StudioLogic NUMA piano that has a compact size, but it has no pitch and mod wheels, uses a terrible tiny joystick instead.

The Casio will definitely have a high-quality keyboard feel. People seem to love the feel of their piano-style controllers and digital pianos, although it's a bit taller than the others in your list.

I will be on the prowl for more low-profile master keyboards at NAMM this January, so if I find any candidates I'll report back.


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## Fever Phoenix (Dec 20, 2019)

I like the Nektar LX88 for its easy integration in Cubase, but not the biggest fan of how the keys feel.


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## Robert Kooijman (Dec 20, 2019)

If you're not afraid of a bit of DIY, you could just take a mechanical keybed out of it's casing.

I did this for weighted and non-weighted Fatar ones. You can find these rather affordable 2nd hand. Mod & pitchwheels can be moved "outboard". You're able to get under 7.5cm height with ease


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## gyprock (Dec 20, 2019)

Nektar Impact LX88+ is 8cm to the top of the knobs. If you removed the rubber feet you could get close to 7.5cm. I'm very happy with this keyboard as a controller.


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## Billy Palmer (Dec 20, 2019)

Robert Kooijman said:


> If you're not afraid of a bit of DIY, you could just take a mechanical keybed out of it's casing.
> 
> I did this for weighted and non-weighted Fatar ones. You can find these rather affordable 2nd hand. Mod & pitchwheels can be moved "outboard". You're able to get under 7.5cm height with ease



Ok that's mad! If I decide to go down this particular rabbit hole, where could I start looking/reading?



charlieclouser said:


> - I had not seen the Icon before, and I will make sure to check it out at NAMM this January. Given the somewhat janky construction of their fader controllers I'm not too hopeful but you never know.
> 
> I will be on the prowl for more low-profile master keyboards at NAMM this January, so if I find any candidates I'll report back.



I suspect the Icon is just a little too good to be true, very little about the keyboard online also. Much appreciated re NAMM!



EvilDragon said:


> 7.5 cm is something I almost never saw on 88 key boards.
> 
> Maybe check out Casio PX-5S... It's not 7.5 cm but it should provide the best response out of anything you've listed.


I'm looking for something more compact and inexpensive, apprecaite the recommendation though.



gyprock said:


> Nektar Impact LX88+ is 8cm to the top of the knobs. If you removed the rubber feet you could get close to 7.5cm. I'm very happy with this keyboard as a controller.



Keep hearing mixed reviews on the LX in terms of velocity response. Take it that hasn't been an issue for you?


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## Karsten Laser (Dec 20, 2019)

You can see many Doepfer LMK 2 / 4 built into desks.
You can buy them without the case:



LMK4+ Info



I had a LMK 2+ years ago, worked fine and plan on building a desk with an integrated LMK4 next year...
As many other manufacturers they use FATAR keyboards.


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## Fever Phoenix (Dec 20, 2019)

William Palmer said:


> Ok that's mad! If I decide to go down this particular rabbit hole, where could I start looking/reading?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes, some irregularity/uneven attacks between black and white keys, but I can work with it. The price is amazing and the integrity with all kind of DAWs is what I love about it. Worked with Novatipn before, amazing playability, but I had a ton of problems with Automap and that got me to switch in the end.


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## LudovicVDP (Dec 20, 2019)

Nektar LX88 owner here. The first version though.
Like I said a few times, I love it when it comes to price, footprint and integration with Cubase.
But I indeed feel it's close to unplayable... 
I really don't care though as I didn't buy it to play piano but to control my DAW... which is does very well.


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## Billy Palmer (Dec 20, 2019)

Karsten Laser said:


> You can see many Doepfer LMK 2 / 4 built into desks.
> You can buy them without the case:
> 
> 
> ...


Had no idea that was a commercial thing! If I go down this route, I'll do it myself because the Doepfer stuff is way over my budget.


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## Robert Kooijman (Dec 20, 2019)

The Doepfer keybeds resemble the older Fatar range like the SL-880. But you need some luck finding one used at a good price.

IMO, the quality has always been so-so. Slightly spongy action, not really consistent force-velocity curve. And the mod / pitchweels potentiometers are prone to trouble due to oxidation. But this can be solved with e.g. Kontakt K60 spray.

Trouble is, you have to spend much more for quality 88-key keybeds. They're used in some Japanese piano keyboards , e.g. from Kawai. Clearly better then the old or new Fatar stuff. But, apart from the cost, these nice Japanese hammer action keybeds require more vertical space to build in.


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## EvilDragon (Dec 20, 2019)

Doepfer IS using Fatar keybeds, in fact. TP/40GH in both LMK2/4.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 20, 2019)

Robert Kooijman said:


> If you're not afraid of a bit of DIY, you could just take a mechanical keybed out of it's casing.



Cool!

What keyboard did those come from originally, and where did you put the electronics (key scanners or whatever)?

Also, are those Speck mixers? I haven't seen those for years. They were (hopefully are?) really good.


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## Robert Kooijman (Dec 21, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Cool!
> 
> What keyboard did those come from originally, and where did you put the electronics (key scanners or whatever)?
> 
> Also, are those Speck mixers? I haven't seen those for years. They were (hopefully are?) really good.



Nick, these come from Fatar SL880 (weighted) & TMK88 (non-weighted) keyboards (see sig).
At the time, these were amongst the most affordable 88 keyboards available. Never really liked their somber grey plastic casing, so taking out the keybeds didn't hurt that much. The electronic boards sit just below the keybeds: a very tight fit, but it works 

All the mixing stuff is DIY. Since a kid, I got into building and designing electronics. As you know, before DAW's became as powerful as they are now, one had to use outboard gear, FX, samplers etc. So there was always a need for (more) mixing channels. Being a bit of an audio-freak, I used high-end very-low-noise components like the AD797 opamp and MAT02 transistors (for MIC preamps). Going the DIY route kept things nevertheless affordable.


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## EvilDragon (Dec 21, 2019)

I do think that that huge display is too close to your eyes, though!  Monitor of that size should probably be away for at least 2 meters, if not more!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 21, 2019)

EvilDragon said:


> I do think that that huge display is too close to your eyes, though!  Monitor of that size should probably be away for at least 2 meters, if not more!



And then the letters, etc. are too small, so you're back where you started.

That's why I went back to my 30" Cinema Display after trying a 40" 4K one.


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## EvilDragon (Dec 21, 2019)

Depends on dot pitch of the monitor and DPI scaling you use, though...


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## Alex Fraser (Dec 21, 2019)

Like Charlie, Keystation 88 here.

I won't pretend it's the ultimate performance instrument, but it's fine for general production.
I've got the velocity curve permanently edited in my template via the Logic Environment - so don't get too hung up on the curve out the box.

They're kind of disposable at the price. Mine is full of sandwich crumbs and I don't care. And if you break it? Amazon prime next day and carry on.


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## Billy Palmer (Jan 7, 2020)

Thanks everyone for all your comments!

I'm down to my final 5 choices.

Bit more context:
-I don't have a dedicated studio, meaning I may at times have to relocate whatever controller I buy.
-Overall, I'm after accurate 88 key action in a small for factor. I'm looking on the budget end.
-I found a way around my initial 7.5cm height limit. That said, form factor is still key.
-I'm leaning towards the *Casio CDP, *although I have yet to try out and the Numa Compact and Oxygen 88.

Here's a very serious table I made for myself last night:






Any more takes appreciated!


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## Wunderhorn (Jan 7, 2020)

William Palmer said:


> Keep hearing mixed reviews on the LX in terms of velocity response. Take it that hasn't been an issue for you?



I have 2 Nektars. They work perfectly, no issue with velocity and I did get them for their relatively small footprint. (LX88+ and GX49)


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## EvilDragon (Jan 7, 2020)

Yeah from your selection of 5, Casio probably has the best action.


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## Billy Palmer (Jan 7, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Yeah from your selection of 5, Casio probably has the best action.


I have the EvilDragon stamp of a approval :D


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## mickeyl (May 18, 2020)

FWIW, I'm in the same boat as the original poster, although I have 80mm. I just bought a Keylab Essential 88, but can't really recommend it. After taking the caps off, it fits nicely, but the keybed action doesn't feel well – it's lightyears behind the playability of my "gold standard" (KOMPLETE KONTROL S61).
Of the 4 velocity curves, none fits really well, it almost behaves random.

I pondered about building a Doepfer PK88 directly in my desk, but according to the schematics which just came from Doepfer it is 84mm at its highest point :( So I have to continue looking.

@Robert Kooijman: Which keybeds exactly did you treat so well in the picture you shown?


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## Robert Kooijman (May 24, 2020)

mickeyl said:


> @Robert Kooijman: Which keybeds exactly did you treat so well in the picture you shown?



Sorry for replying so late! Below picture shows the two keybeds 'naked': a Fatar SL880 (weighted 'piano' action) & TMK88 (unweighted 'synth' action). The original Fatar electronics are also taken out of their casings and fit *just* under the upper SL880. So you get the most out of a minimal footprint


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## mickeyl (May 24, 2020)

That's a great DIY-project, thanks a lot. Two last questions: Did you just glue the wooden blocks on top of the keybed? And, out of interest, can you perhaps compare the TMK88 action with any other existing devices, say, a KOMPLETE KONTROL S model? Best regards!


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## Robert Kooijman (May 24, 2020)

Those wooden blocks (ribs) are not glued or mounted to the keybeds, just the side-panels. These are also made of wood, but not shown here. So, none are touching the keys. You can use molding strips in various shapes, but they need to be (and stay) straight for it to work.

Can't compare the TMK88 to the Komplete Kontrol S. But compared with most hardware synths it's OK, although its action is IMO not as good as some of the better ones with Japanese (non-Fatar) keybeds.

Main advantages of the Fatar keybeds is that they are compact, easy to (un)mount and you can find them for a relatively good price. But velocity, aftertouch or note-repetition consistency is only so-so.
If you have a look at the mechanics of e.g. good Korg, Yamaha or Kawai keybeds, you see these are made more elaborate.


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## Billy Palmer (May 24, 2020)

Seeing as this thread has popped back up, here's how I've found the *Casio CDP-S100 *over the last 4 months*:*


+Overall, I would say the keybed is solid considering, the price point. As ever, try before you buy.
+It's been plug and play for logic, no drivers or fiddling needed.
+It's super a small and sexy 88 key weighted controller.

-It does lack faders, mod wheel, pitch bend etc. In my case, I wanted a smaller keyboard (88 keys at a desk is already massive anyway); I've preferred to just use a nanocontrol.
-Compared to the white keys, the black keys feel just a little lighter and noisier to press. The actual velocity data from the black keys is however fine, it's just the weighting that's a little off imo.
-There's no half pedalling. Even with a continuous sustain plugged in, the output is limited to 0 or 127.

In conclusion, I'm generally happy with it for £310.


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## Audio Birdi (May 24, 2020)

William Palmer said:


> Seeing as this thread has popped back up, here's how I've found the *Casio CDP-S100 *over the last 4 months*:*
> 
> 
> +Overall, I would say the keybed is solid considering, the price point. As ever, try before you buy.
> ...



Thank you for your thoughts! been looking into buying a digital piano instead of a midi keyboard, tempted by the M-Audio Hammer still, since it is USB-powered but it's very chunky overall in size!

Had a play of the Casio S100, Yamaha P45 and Roland FP-10 in a shop a month before lockdown in the UK. The Casio seemed the best one for fast-playing and is the most compact one .


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## jononotbono (May 24, 2020)

I’m still waiting for the new Nektar Impact GXP88. No doubt it will feel bad but I just want a low profile semi weighted 88 key controller at the minute. It’s release has been postponed because of the Coronavirus but it’s cheap enough to give it a punt.


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## IFM (May 25, 2020)

mickeyl said:


> FWIW, I'm in the same boat as the original poster, although I have 80mm. I just bought a Keylab Essential 88, but can't really recommend it. After taking the caps off, it fits nicely, but the keybed action doesn't feel well – it's lightyears behind the playability of my "gold standard" (KOMPLETE KONTROL S61).
> Of the 4 velocity curves, none fits really well, it almost behaves random.
> 
> I pondered about building a Doepfer PK88 directly in my desk, but according to the schematics which just came from Doepfer it is 84mm at its highest point :( So I have to continue looking.
> ...


Okay glad this wasn’t just me. My journey with Arturia started with he KL88 which was clunky but had accurate velocity despite the label paint wearing off quickly. I then got the KL88mkII. The velocity only has 3 curves and behaved exactly as you said...random. I sent it out for repair and they said no issue but replaced it anyways Same problem so I sold it. i even showed video proof to Arturia how off the charts their velocity output was. Now I know not to every try the Essential version either.


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## CT (May 25, 2020)

Robert Kooijman said:


> If you're not afraid of a bit of DIY, you could just take a mechanical keybed out of it's casing.
> 
> I did this for weighted and non-weighted Fatar ones. You can find these rather affordable 2nd hand. Mod & pitchwheels can be moved "outboard". You're able to get under 7.5cm height with ease



This is so cool. Bit like an organ console.


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## Alex Fraser (May 25, 2020)

Since Covid meant my wife commandeered half my studio space, my 88 controller is now....a Technics Digital Piano made sometime in the dark mid nineties. Despite two decades of my nieces and nephews bashing the keys, it's in great shape and still one of the most playable 'beds I've had.

The piano is at 90 degrees to the desk. An NI M32 mini keys thing is pride of place on the desktop and I'm finding I'm using it for most of my production work with the piano only being used as required. Food for thought? It's a lot more comfortable than stretching over 88 hammers all day long..


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## brek (Jul 19, 2021)

Thread title is spot on with what I am looking for (though, up to 8cm), so... anyone come across anything that fits this purpose over the last year?

In my spread sheet of options, I'm still debating between the *Icon iKeyboard 8Nano* (sparse and mixed reviews) and the *Nektar GXP88* (mixed reviews, not great experience with previous product).

I've strongly disliked the feel of the Keystations I've used in the past, but probably worth a trek to Ye Olde Music Shoppe to test the new ones (along with the Keylab Essential).

The other potential option I've seen are these really cheap Digital Pianos on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Costzon-Portable-Sensitive-Bluetooth-Adjustment/dp/B082XQNJY8/ref=pd_di_sccai_1/131-5882976-4861525?pd_rd_w=cALSl&pf_rd_p=c9443270-b914-4430-a90b-72e3e7e784e0&pf_rd_r=FVPN05EWP8KT3NH593TT&pd_rd_r=7242829a-0f52-44f9-a75d-d6ed415811b0&pd_rd_wg=fNV5V&pd_rd_i=B082XQNJY8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/Costzon-Portable-Sensitive-Bluetooth-Adjustment/dp/B082XQNJY8/)
(search for Costzon Digital Piano if the link doesn't work). I mean, these have to be garbage, right?


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 20, 2021)

brek said:


> I've strongly disliked the feel of the Keystations I've used in the past, but probably worth a trek to Ye Olde Music Shoppe to test the new ones (along with the Keylab Essential).


The keybed on the Keystation 88 MK3 is supposedly improved. Still a budget option but worth a shot?


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## mickeyl (Jul 21, 2021)

I pretty much gave up with regards to the optimal ergonomics. It's just not possible to optimize a computer-keyboard-based recording desk for both a healthy height and a really good (hammer mechanics) keyboard unless you have exceptional carpenter skills. I will stay with the Keylab Essential 88 so that I can "input notes", but for _real_ playing, I need to turn 180 degrees where I will add a VPC-1 or MP11SE soon.


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