# When support fails to us (VSL - Vienna Symphonic Library)



## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

Guys,

What should we do when support fails to us?


I'm dealing with VSL on the case 219010 and I'm experiencing a very bad support. I have an issue that's affecting my whole workflow and the only answers I got were: send me your network configurations and check if your software is up to date.

This happened days ago and I had this setup working before. Even so I did as requested by support. I also lost hours running lots of tests to isolate the issue. Actually I did what a GOOD support might do.

Now I'm lost and my software is not working properly. Which leads me to the conclusion that either is a real bug on their software or there's something that I'm overlooking.

Either way I think I deserve a better support.

Now they don't even answer my e-mails anymore.

How can we bypass regular support in a company and talk to somebody that really cares and helps us to solve the issue?


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## Steinmetzify (Jul 30, 2017)

Gotta say.....not much you really CAN do except burn em on the internet.

I find it ridiculous that in this day and age, especially when SO much of this content is bought online as a download and no other way, that devs think that word of crappy customer service won't be heard.

This company will never get a dime of my $.

Thanks for the warning.


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## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

Steinmetzify said:


> Gotta say.....not much you really CAN do except burn em on the internet.
> 
> I find it ridiculous that in this day and age, especially when SO much of this content is bought online as a download and no other way, that devs think that word of crappy customer service won't be heard.
> 
> ...



Thanks man.

A while ago I bought their new Synchron Percussion and intended to complete the whole Synchron Orchestra, but now I'll start looking somewhere else to invest my money.


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## Steinmetzify (Jul 30, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> Thanks man.
> 
> A while ago I bought their new Synchron Percussion and intended to complete the whole Synchron Orchestra, but now I'll start looking somewhere else to invest my money.



Solid idea it appears. Were it me, I'd think about laying the rep's name and company in the thread title so it comes up in a Google search when people are looking for bad press.

It's really the only recourse we have in these situations.


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## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

Steinmetzify said:


> Solid idea it appears. Were it me, I'd think about laying the rep's name and company in the thread title so it comes up in a Google search when people are looking for bad press.
> 
> It's really the only recourse we have in these situations.



Amazing idea


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## Jack Weaver (Jul 30, 2017)

I don't know what has happened here but Marnix has helped me through a lot of rough patches through the years. I'm in the US so there is a great time difference between the West Coast of the US and Austria and sometimes the time of day or night effects when any Euro support team gets back to me. 

I hope you get your issue figured out as soon as possible. I know how frustrating it can be. 

.


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## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

Jack Weaver said:


> I don't know what has happened here but Marnix has helped me through a lot of rough patches through the years. I'm in the US so there is a great time difference between the West Coast of the US and Austria and sometimes the time of day or night effects when any Euro support team gets back to me.
> 
> I hope you get your issue figured out as soon as possible. I know how frustrating it can be.
> 
> .



Thanks Jack. I had good support in the past with VSL, but this time is being awful.

I'm sure it's not a time difference issue this time. It's either a bug in the software that they don't want to take responsibility for or things really changed inside VSL.

My first e-mail was 10 days ago. I had a fast reply on this but only "informing" me how VSL connects with slaves. Then I send 2 e-mails 6 days ago with the result of some tests. The only answer I got was to send him my network configs, which I did minutes later and also did a video to show the issue. The last answer I got it was 4 days ago with the recommendation to check if my software was up to date. Then I send 5 e-mails in the following days with more test results and had no answer since then.


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## ctsai89 (Jul 30, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> Thanks man.
> 
> A while ago I bought their new Synchron Percussion and intended to complete the whole Synchron Orchestra, but now I'll start looking somewhere else to invest my money.



look to Berlin Orchestra or Spitfire Orchestra (but you'll need another solo brass library).  VSL never got a dime from me either. Only judging from their demoes, nothing actually sounded realistic to me, rather almost always like a Sibelius/finale playback. But for the ones that were actually done right (and rarely have I heard anyone do VSL mockups correctly), they sound great.


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## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> look to Berlin Orchestra or Spitfire Orchestra (but you'll need another solo brass library).  VSL never got a dime from me either. Only judging from their demoes, nothing actually sounded realistic to me, rather almost always like a Sibelius/finale playback. But for the ones that were actually done right (and rarely have I heard anyone do VSL mockups correctly), they sound great.




Good idea! Orchestral Tools and Spitfire seem very reliable companies.


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## sostenuto (Jul 30, 2017)

Have followed similar discussions .... which have diminished apparent position of VSL over time. Maybe isolated or other reasons, but VSL never seems to do much to reassert their earlier reputation. Handful of alternate choices now fill the void. Personal telecon support, from great guys at Ilio/SoCal, made VSL strong choice. Not so much now.


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## ctsai89 (Jul 30, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> Good idea! Orchestral Tools and Spitfire seem very reliable companies.



Actually I have to be honest but personally what's happened to me is that Spitfire help desk isn't exactly ideal either. And there are some sloppiness such as the volume level problem in some patches that they don't even address in public, leaving yourself to have to be the one to be able to hear the volume error and correct it yourself. 

I can't speak for Orchestral Tools but everyone seems to love it besides the resource hungry problem.


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## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

sostenuto said:


> Have followed similar discussions .... which have diminished apparent position of VSL over time. Maybe isolated or other reasons, but VSL never seems to do much to reassert their earlier reputation. Handful of alternate choices now fill the void. Personal telecon support, from great guys at Ilio/SoCal, made VSL strong choice. Not so much now.



I'm not that experienced as some of you guys, but I really had the impression that VSL changed.


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## sostenuto (Jul 30, 2017)

Lottsa $$$ likely headed to OT/SA very shortly. Will see if marketing boo-boos (Promos) override strong content and support ...


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## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> Actually I have to be honest but personally what's happened to me is that Spitfire help desk isn't exactly ideal either. And there are some sloppiness such as the volume level problem in some patches that they don't even address in public, leaving yourself to have to be the one to be able to hear the volume error and correct it yourself.
> 
> I can't speak for Orchestral Tools but everyone seems to love it besides the resource hungry problem.



I think that the worst part of it, is that companies don't take responsibility for their faults, making you look like an idiot.


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## rrichard63 (Jul 30, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> What should we do when support fails to us ... How can we bypass regular support in a company and talk to somebody that really cares and helps us to solve the issue?



Sometimes (only sometimes) other users can help you zero in on a solution. VSL runs a forum for customers. Have you described your situation there?

I'm not saying that running a customer forum should relieve the developer of the obligation to provide support, especially when bugs are reported. But they are a second source of guidance.


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## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

rrichard63 said:


> Sometimes (only sometimes) other users can help you zero in on a solution. VSL runs a forum for customers. Have you described your situation there?
> 
> I'm not saying that running a customer forum should relieve the developer of the obligation to provide support, especially when bugs are reported. But they are a second source of guidance.



Thanks, I'll try that!


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## wcreed51 (Jul 30, 2017)

I've never had issues with VSL products or their support. what exactly is your problem?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 30, 2017)

Stop.

Marnix knows what's going on. She's been at VSL since I'd guess 2003.

VSL has always had excellent support, and more importantly they've always been a company that takes the high road. I'm sorry you're having technical problems, but that's no excuse for this kind of posting. There is almost certainly more to the story.

"Burning them" on the internet is very immature. I'm sorry, that kind of irresponsible BS is bad for our entire industry - including the other companies someone felt it appropriate to recommend here as a replacement.

People will read this thread and think the company is bad. I know many of the people, including their local distributors, and I can tell you that they all care very much about what they're doing.


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## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

wcreed51 said:


> I've never had issues with VSL products or their support. what exactly is your problem?





Random VSL Pro Instances disconnecting when you have instances of Kontakt inserted directly into Cubase (MAC) AND VSL Ensamble PRO running on PC. All my software (MAC OSX, Windows, Cubase, VSL Ensambe Pro and Kontakt) are the latest provided by the developers.

There's some weird interaction going on among Cubase, Kontakt and VE Pro.

I tested with Logic and everything is fine.

I tested on Studio One (VST) and everything is fine.

I also tested with the latest VE Pro 5 and 6 and the problem persists.


I tested inserting Kontakt instances in VE Pro in my main computer also and running Ensamle Pro on the slave and NOT inserting kontakt instances directly in Cubase and everything is fine.

I tested only with Play instances on the slave and as soon as I insert a Kontakt instance directly in to Cubase, save and open it again the problem persists.

I tested using VST 2 and the problem persists.

I unnistalled Kontakt from the slave and the problem persists.

So it's definitely a problem in my main computer. The interaction among Kontakt (5.6.8) - MAC, Cubase PRO 9 - MAC and VSL Ensemble PRO (any version) - on a slave PC is not right.



The network configs are as instructed by VSL.


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## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Stop.
> 
> Marnix knows what's going on. She's been at VSL since I'd guess 2003.
> 
> ...



In any moment I was disrespectful. I also tried to reach support multiple times before posting. I'm just saying I have an issue, support was not helpful and stopped answering my emails.


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## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

If VSL support contacts me and get things sorted, I'd glady post here.

Even so, this has been very strange and frustrating.


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## Steinmetzify (Jul 30, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Stop.
> 
> Marnix knows what's going on. She's been at VSL since I'd guess 2003.
> 
> ...



Stop what, trying to get help for an issue that the company that put out the product won't help with?

'Almost certainly more to the story' doesn't help the OP, does it? He's stating what happened and his frustration with the company helping to cause it by their lack of support, including the fact that they *stopped answering his emails.*

Not supporting your customers is 'very immature'...I get that they might be friends of yours and you probably don't have this problem, but the OP does and doesn't have your connections...or any connections at all anymore, it seems.

Are you saying that we're not allowed to post bad experiences with customer service here?

Being a noob to this orchestral game I seriously count on threads like this to know who to give money to and who not to. Regardless of the idea that there might be more to the story, when it comes to me paying a company and expecting their continued support and them failing in their obligation *for whatever reason, *I'd like to know it could happen beforehand.


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## creativeforge (Jul 30, 2017)

Week-end support is often sketchy. Expressing frustration is normal. I get that. But skewering the company, their product, and publicly name-shaming the employee you started corresponding with, is a really bad idea. It takes time to troubleshoot, going through tests, trying to replicate the problem, there are so many different setups, and systems configurations, it is much more helpful to step back and accept the delay. At that point, it's become a question of emotions rather than technical difficulties.

Bashing people online can only backfire. This is what Nick is expressing. Not "Stop [...] trying to get help for an issue that the company that put out the product won't help with." Which is a ridiculous thing to say, imho. Nick is a seasoned professional and has probably encountered this kind of situation himself - and seen plenty others with various products and from various companies - more often than you'd care to know. Finding good advice is priceless, but the 'best' advice did cost something to those who share it. Hope you find a connection with VSL soon enough and find a solution. 

Peace,

Andre

MuHeMu.


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## Steinmetzify (Jul 30, 2017)

Can accept that. But I'd like to know what you guys think he's supposed to do once they've stopped answering his emails. He's sent 5 in the last 6 days, not one of them responded to.


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## NoamL (Jul 30, 2017)

I'm confused, why are you reporting this to VSL? The bug only appears when you try to load a *Cubase *savefile. In other words it sounds like Cubase is screwing up when it tries to store the information about reconnecting. The fact that you can't reproduce this bug in other DAWs seems conclusive...


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## creativeforge (Jul 30, 2017)

Steinmetzify said:


> Can accept that. But I'd like to know what you guys think he's supposed to do once they've stopped answering his emails. He's sent 5 in the last 6 days, not one of them responded to.



It depends on how far he feels he wants to go with pressing in. Sometimes a fresh start, in a new week, asking for follow-up is all it takes. I personally keep working on the issues, comparing notes from other users, and sometimes the fault was mine, or I found a solution or new perspective. 

Other times, I really need to hear from the company. I can only hope the OP finds help that allows him to pursue his project. Putting things on hold is not always an option. 

Andre


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## EgM (Jul 30, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Stop.
> 
> Marnix knows what's going on. She's been at VSL since I'd guess 2003.
> 
> ...



I will second this. From your initial post, we have no idea what your problem is!

I use VSL products every DAY! from Vienna ensemble pro to Vienna Instrument Pro with diverse instruments with no issues at all with OSX 10.12.6, or Windows 10 with no issues whatsoever.

Before you get on a rage slander campaign, maybe enlighten us on what the specific issues you're having?

I do mean specific.


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## NoamL (Jul 30, 2017)

Also, with all respect, the bug does sound annoying and productivity impeding if you're loading lots of cues but it's not like you're losing entire files or seeing your sessions become corrupted.

I worked on a TV show where every... single... time... I loaded any of the composer's cues I had to do some small tasks similar to what you showed, in order to get the sessions to work on a differently-configured rig. It's just mindless 15-second work. 

Have some perspective, your difficulties are not proportional to trashing a company and one of their employees by name in a public forum.


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## creativeforge (Jul 30, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> If VSL support contacts me and get things sorted, I'd glady post here. Even so, this has been very strange and frustrating.



And you will find help here too. Members are responding, be encouraged...


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## EgM (Jul 30, 2017)

NoamL said:


> Also, with all respect, the bug does sound annoying and productivity impeding if you're loading lots of cues but it's not like you're losing entire files or seeing your sessions become corrupted.
> 
> I worked on a TV show where every... single... time... I loaded any of the composer's cues I had to do some small tasks similar to what you showed, in order to get the sessions to work on a differently-configured rig. It's just mindless 15-second work.
> 
> Have some perspective, your difficulties are not proportional to trashing a company and one of their employees by name in a public forum.



Which bug are we talking about?... I'm reading this whole thing I can't seem to understand?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 30, 2017)

Steinmetizfy:



> Being a noob to this orchestral game I seriously count on threads like this to know who to give money to and who not to



That's exactly what I take such exception to! That can't be allowed to stand.

VSL is as high calibre a company as you'll find in our industry - or really any industry. They've demonstrated repeatedly that they're deadly serious about raising the bar, starting with the Orchestral Cube when it came out in 2003.

They're one of the companies whose back every other developer stands on, and that's why I'm jumping in to defend them. You can argue about who started work on their sampled orchestra first - maybe EastWest, maybe Sonivox (called Sonic Implants then), who cares. But for example I doubt Doug R of EastWest would have been motivated to buy their studio if VSL hadn't had the Silent Stage studio (and they now have another one).

As I said, they set the standard early on. I'll add that Ilio, VSL's US Distributor, is also a first-class company.

Now, I don't know anything about rap_fer, including what country he or she is in. And sure, maybe his case did slip through the cracks; it does happen. But you only have to go to their forum to see that that's far from the norm.


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## DaddyO (Jul 30, 2017)

Naming the person you feel let you down crosses a major line, my friend. To my way of thinking it shows a major lack of class. Saying this might upset you, given that you are already upset about the situation. But sometimes things like this need to be said. 

Nobody has a problem with you describing your situation and asking for help here, but to jump right in and publicly trash one of the most respected companies in virtual instrument community based on a single incident is itself over the top.

You might want to rethink your approach. How do you know what is going on? Do you really think VSL is ignoring you? Highly unlikely, but possible. It is also possible something we have no way of knowing about, something that if we did know we would say is legitimate, is preventing them from getting the help you need. A technical problem. A personal problem. A simple human error.

Now if you were to experience this repeatedly over several incidents, there might be grounds to trash a company publicly. But one incident, no matter how disruptive to you (and I'm sorry you are experiencing this), is in my opinion not enough to take that drastic step. Many here, including myself, have repeatedly and always received excellent customer service from VSL.


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## erica-grace (Jul 30, 2017)

I am with Nick. I have limited experience with VSL support, but what I have experienced has been stellar. This pile on and "let's burn them" mentality is immature and out of line.

OP - you keep referring to the fact that they stopped emailing you. Since when? Two days ago? That would be Fri afternoon. Maybe they went home for the weekend? Maybe they will get back to you Mon? Maybe they are just really busy. You are not their only customer, but your tone seems to suggest that you feel you are.

I find it hard to believe that they simply stopped emailing you because they do not want to help you. I do not, however, from your tone, find it hard to believe that you are completely overreacting.

I am also not exactly sure what was wrong with the response that they gave. Maybe you can clear that up?


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## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

creativeforge said:


> Week-end support is often sketchy. Expressing frustration is normal. I get that. But skewering the company, their product, and publicly name-shaming the employee you started corresponding with, is a really bad idea. It takes time to troubleshoot, going through tests, trying to replicate the problem, there are so many different setups, and systems configurations, it is much more helpful to step back and accept the delay. At that point, it's become a question of emotions rather than technical difficulties.
> 
> Bashing people online can only backfire. This is what Nick is expressing. Not "Stop [...] trying to get help for an issue that the company that put out the product won't help with." Which is a ridiculous thing to say, imho. Nick is a seasoned professional and has probably encountered this kind of situation himself - and seen plenty others with various products and from various companies - more often than you'd care to know. Finding good advice is priceless, but the 'best' advice did cost something to those who share it. Hope you find a connection with VSL soon enough and find a solution.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately I'm not talking about a weekend delay for the support. I'm talking about a 10 day issue with only 2 answers from support just telling me to check if my software was updated and to check my network configurations.

I told support days ago that tha was not the case because with other software besides Cubase everything was fine.

Based on the way things were going, they would simply ignore my last messages and if I didn't say anything else, they would probably let it go.

I'm new at sample libraries and do not have the connections with the developers as many of you. So I'm not a friend of any company developer neither know any of them in person. I only have access to the support emails unfortunately.


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## erica-grace (Jul 30, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> I'm talking about a 10 day issue with only 2 answers from support just telling me to check if my software was updated and to check my network configurations.



And your response to them, was, what?


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## Steinmetzify (Jul 30, 2017)

Looks like at least 6 more emails and a video detailing his issue.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> Steinmetizfy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



@Nick Batzdorf,

I get it man. I have loyalty to certain companies too. Like I stated, I'm new at this and count on the threads like this to see what's eventually going to happen for this guy. I get that they started a lot of this and I'm grateful to them, like I would be to Black Sabbath for the drop tuned guitar innovation, or EVH for his contributions to my main instrument.

All that said, anything that happened in 2003-2017 doesn't matter to me one bit if this matter goes unresolved...all it takes is one RIGHT NOW for me to decide not to deal with a company, no matter who they are.

I'm sure they're great people; I'm sure they work hard and are beloved by many and many of you seem to have good relationships with them and glowing customer service reviews.

The point for me of this thread is that this guy isn't their friend. He doesn't have that history or those contacts/connections which is exactly where I'D be were I to decide to deal with this company. I'm interested to see where this goes and hope OP gets it resolved and reports back a satisfactory result.

I really don't mean to keep belaboring that point, but this is a serious pet peeve of mine....there are numerous companies out there that are your best friend until they get your non-refundable money and then hang you out to dry. Positive Grid is one of the worst of them, with numerous unresolved issues and ZERO customer support for a loyal fanbase. They lost me as a customer for life, as did Line6.

Just keeping an eye out for ones that do the same thing in the VI world is all.


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## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

erica-grace said:


> I am with Nick. I have limited experience with VSL support, but what I have experienced has been stellar. This pile on and "let's burn them" mentality is immature and out of line.
> 
> OP - you keep referring to the fact that they stopped emailing you. Since when? Two days ago? That would be Fri afternoon. Maybe they went home for the weekend? Maybe they will get back to you Mon? Maybe they are just really busy. You are not their only customer, but your tone seems to suggest that you feel you are.
> 
> ...




Hi, thanks for the reply my friend. As I said before, this is not a case of a support requested during the weekend. It's a 10 day issue with nothing but standard replies. And the last reply was 4 days ago.

This tone I use here is the tone I used in the emails also. In my last email I even politely said I was not happy with the support I received, also asked to get support from another member, as it was not working with that specific person.

I can understand lots of things from a company, but not the lack of comunication. Something like "we are looking into your issue", would be nice. Or "give us some more days". Is that asking too much?

As I said before also, I have had great support with them and I am a customer not only of the product I'm asking help for, but also of some more products.

I will edit my original post omitting the person name though. You are right, maybe she or he is going through some personal issue. Nevertheless the company should pass the case ahead.

The problem is at after provinding them my network configurations and confirming that my software was up to date, they stopped to reply my emails.

I still can't understand on which part of my original post you guys think I'm wrong.


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## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

Steinmetzify said:


> Looks like at least 6 more emails and a video detailing his issue.



Exactly!


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## creativeforge (Jul 30, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> Unfortunately I'm not talking about a weekend delay for the support. I'm talking about a 10 day issue with only 2 answers from support just telling me to check if my software was updated and to check my network configurations.
> 
> I told support days ago that tha was not the case because with other software besides Cubase everything was fine.
> 
> ...




I hear your pain, I really do empathize with you. All I'm saying - and others are encouraging you as well - is to leave the names of tech support persons (who allegedly could not find a fix or replicate the issue but that's speculation on my part) - out of the conversation. Try not to make this personal (I know it's hard) and take this public, that's really not going to help you in the short or long run. 

We're all here to help and support you in the meantime. As far as your situation/issues, maybe you could look at the responses you got here and respond. Many members use the same products and cold offer feedback. That could help while you wait?

All the best, we all go through similar things, and it's never easy. Sometimes, our particular situation brings the company a new skill, a further understanding of interaction with other software. 

Peace,

Andre


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## storyteller (Jul 30, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> Random VSL Pro Instances disconnecting when you have instances of Kontakt inserted directly into Cubase (MAC) AND VSL Ensamble PRO running on PC. All my software (MAC OSX, Windows, Cubase, VSL Ensambe Pro and Kontakt) are the latest provided by the developers.
> 
> There's some weird interaction going on among Cubase, Kontakt and VE Pro.
> 
> ...



I definitely second what @Nick Batzdorf said as well. There are always better and more productive ways to solve a problem than by throwing jabs. Simply ask elsewhere... All it would have taken was something like, "hey guys, I'm having some trouble hearing back from support on this. Has anyone else seen this issue?" My opinion at least. But save that thought for another day...

*All that said, your problem is likely RAM. Like your RAM is crazy low. I would bet your project/Cubase/VePro, or something in the middle is causing instances to randomly not connect due to RAM constraints.*

Hope that helps you out a bit.  (Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with my first comment supporting Nick's comment) 

EDIT: After thinking about it for a moment after my rush to a solution, I see that the ram usage in the corner was Kontakt's memory server and not a memory management tool. So I retract my comment. I am still curious about the RAM load though...


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## creativeforge (Jul 30, 2017)

Steinmetzify said:


> Looks like at least 6 more emails and a video detailing his issue.
> @Nick Batzdorf,
> 
> I get it man. I have loyalty to certain companies too. Like I stated, I'm new at this and count on the threads like this to see what's eventually going to happen for this guy. I get that they started a lot of this and I'm grateful to them, like I would be to Black Sabbath for the drop tuned guitar innovation, or EVH for his contributions to my main instrument.
> ...



Totally righteous!

The OP edited his post which toned it down a notch. It's not just who you know, but how you present yourself to people who are worth knowing... 

And now we hope for the best for him to get his issue resolved asap. Looks like he provided the most detailed info.

@rap_ferr: All the best, and thanks for editing your post. That goes a long way. On a board with thousands of members, it's good to get to know people in positive circumstances, but it's not always possible. However, you've been fair so far. 

Best to you,

Andre


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## creativeforge (Jul 30, 2017)

storyteller said:


> I definitely second what @Nick Batzdorf said as well. There are always better and more productive ways to solve a problem than by throwing jabs. Simply ask elsewhere... All it would have taken was something like, "hey guys, I'm having some trouble hearing back from support on this. Has anyone else seen this issue?" My opinion at least. But save that thought for another day...
> 
> *All that said, your problem is likely RAM. Like your RAM is crazy low. I would bet your project/Cubase/VePro, or something in the middle is causing instances to randomly not connect due to RAM constraints.*
> 
> Hope that helps you out a bit.  (Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with my first comment supporting Nick's comment)



@rap_ferr : I also thought about your RAM. I personally just purchase a piano library, and every time I play with it, my CPU tilts and I get white outs. So I stopped using it till I get a better system. Sometimes it's the hardware, sometimes it's the software. Sometimes it's both. 

Good luck!


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## storyteller (Jul 30, 2017)

Then again, I could be mis-understanding his ram load from the video. I thought 400MB was all that was remaining. At first glance, I thought it was a free tool like Memory Cleaner that shows the status of the amount of free ram in the menu bar, but that icon is Kontakt's memory server... Whoops! You might try disabling memory server. That use to be an issue that plagued ProTools... not sure if it affects VEPro. Still curious about the total RAM usage though. (I edited my original post to reflect my oversight on Memory Server).


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## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

EgM said:


> I will second this. From your initial post, we have no idea what your problem is!
> 
> I use VSL products every DAY! from Vienna ensemble pro to Vienna Instrument Pro with diverse instruments with no issues at all with OSX 10.12.6, or Windows 10 with no issues whatsoever.
> 
> ...





> Random VSL Pro Instances disconnecting when you have instances of Kontakt inserted directly into Cubase (MAC) AND VSL Ensamble PRO running on PC. All my software (MAC OSX, Windows, Cubase, VSL Ensambe Pro and Kontakt) are the latest provided by the developers.
> 
> There's some weird interaction going on among Cubase, Kontakt and VE Pro.
> 
> ...





Can you please test this on your system?


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## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

storyteller said:


> Then again, I could be mis-understanding his ram load from the video. I thought 400MB was all that was remaining. At first glance, I thought it was a free tool like Memory Cleaner that shows the status of the amount of free ram in the menu bar, but that icon is Kontakt's memory server... Whoops! You might try disabling memory server. That use to be an issue that plagued ProTools... not sure if it affects VEPro. Still curious about the total RAM usage though. (I edited my original post to reflect my oversight on Memory Server).




Thanks! I alredy tried disabling memory server. And it didn't work either. Memory Server shows the amont used by kontakt in the main computer (mac). It doesn't show the amount used by the slave (pc).

And I even tried with a blank ve pro instance on the salve and the problem persists. Also I didn't have issues with other daws.

My best bet is that there's somenthing wrong with the interaction on cubase pro 9 (main computer - mac), kontakt 5.6.8 (main computer - mac) and ve pro any version (slave - pc).

As a regular customer I don't have the means to know which part of the process is broken. And I have already reinstalled almost everything twice to test.


----------



## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

creativeforge said:


> Totally righteous!
> 
> The OP edited his post which toned it down a notch. It's not just who you know, but how you present yourself to people who are worth knowing...
> 
> ...



Thank you!


----------



## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

storyteller said:


> I definitely second what @Nick Batzdorf said as well. There are always better and more productive ways to solve a problem than by throwing jabs. Simply ask elsewhere... All it would have taken was something like, "hey guys, I'm having some trouble hearing back from support on this. Has anyone else seen this issue?" My opinion at least. But save that thought for another day...
> 
> *All that said, your problem is likely RAM. Like your RAM is crazy low. I would bet your project/Cubase/VePro, or something in the middle is causing instances to randomly not connect due to RAM constraints.*
> 
> ...



I did ask for help: http://www.vi-control.net/community/threads/ve-pro-6-some-instances-show-as-not-connected.63755/ 

I didn't understand your question abou ram. Are you talking about the memory server ram indicator? That's only the amount used by the kontakt instances I had just added as instrument tracks on the main computer.

Also everything is working with other daws.


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 30, 2017)

@rap_ferr

Do you have *ASIO Guard* disabled in Cubase ? 

If not, disable it, and test to see if that helps.


----------



## storyteller (Jul 30, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> I did ask for help: http://www.vi-control.net/community/threads/ve-pro-6-some-instances-show-as-not-connected.63755/
> 
> I didn't understand your question abou ram. Are you talking about the memory server ram indicator? That's only the amount used by the kontakt instances I had just added as instrument tracks on the main computer.
> 
> Also everything is working with other daws.


Oh I have a ram monitor running on my DAW's menu bar that shows total ram usage and allows you to purge out memory leaks. So at first glance when I saw memory server, I thought I was seeing your remaining ram rather than Kontakt's memory server app that runs in the task bar. The tool I use is called memory cleaner and is free on the AppStore. It's a great little tool and helps you keep a gauge on any potential memory leaks that can occur with a lot of apps and plugins. That is what I was referring to when I mentioned your ram usage... e.g. How much of your available ram was being utilized in your example. Compared to the basic mac utilities, these memory cleaner tools do a much better job of representing what is actually going on (at a global level) with your ram.


----------



## novaburst (Jul 30, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> still can't understand on which part of my original post you guys think I'm wrong.


It's always wrong to take issues from a developer and open a hate thread on a forum trying to get people to boycott that Developer why in the world people do this I will never and infact don't even want to try to understand.

The very fact you gave details that you have the latest update is perhaps telling VSL you should have no issues or the issue is with another software.

I have heard to often people laying there life down swearing or even wanting the problem to be VSL only later to say oh the issue suddenly disappeared I don't know what I done or touched but the issues gone oh.

But only after they swore blind that they knew where the issue is coming from how impulsive is that.

If no one on the planet is having the issue you pointed out then you can understand why it's a dam mistrey to everyone and including the developer.

Every one of us has a choice when communicating to another, you can be bitter and drive others away or you can be constructive and some will learn from you.

Calling some ones named out to defame them is the lowest, it's not here an opolagy should be made you need to make that opolagy over on the VSL forum or email the person direct.


----------



## kitekrazy (Jul 30, 2017)

Just curious about VE Pro. If one upgraded to VEP 6 does it overwrite VEP 5?


----------



## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

muziksculp said:


> @rap_ferr
> 
> Do you have *ASIO Guard* disabled in Cubase ?
> 
> If not, disable it, and test to see if that helps.




Thanks, I'll try that tomorrow!




storyteller said:


> Oh I have a ram monitor running on my DAW's menu bar that shows total ram usage and allows you to purge out memory leaks. So at first glance when I saw memory server, I thought I was seeing your remaining ram rather than Kontakt's memory server app that runs in the task bar. The tool I use is called memory cleaner and is free on the AppStore. It's a great little tool and helps you keep a gauge on any potential memory leaks that can occur with a lot of apps and plugins. That is what I was referring to when I mentioned your ram usage... e.g. How much of your available ram was being utilized in your example. Compared to the basic mac utilities, these memory cleaner tools do a much better job of representing what is actually going on (at a global level) with your ram.



It seems a very good utility app, I'll give it a shot.




novaburst said:


> It's always wrong to take issues from a developer and open a hate thread on a forum trying to get people to boycott that Developer why in the world people do this I will never and infact don't even want to try to understand.
> 
> The very fact you gave details that you have the latest update is perhaps telling VSL you should have no issues or the issue is with another software.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately, as I said before, vsl stopped answering to my emails. And I don't have the personal email of any support team member. Also, I didn't know about the vsl forum until today. But let's see if that helps.

And as I said also said before, in one of my last emails, I politely told them I was not happy with the support I was receiving and asked to switch to another member. No answer to that also.

Unless they produced a perfect software and that this software doesn't interact with other sofware, saying that I'm using the last version is not the same as saying it is bug free.

My intention was never to create a hate thread. Posting here was my last resource and in any moment I was rude. I even already edited my post to ommit the name of the support team member. I also didn't tell nobody to stop buying from vsl or that the company doesn't have good products. I just said that depending on how this ends, I won't buy from vsl again. I'm sure that there's some company out there that you won't buy anymore because of some issue you had. That's every person choice. Even if the issue is only on my computers (and I'm not saying that's not possibe) I think I deserved better support.

I really came here a) to receive some help on the specific issue and b) to ask if somebody could tell me if there's a way to bypass regular support and talk to somebody that would really help me to solve the issue.


----------



## rap_ferr (Jul 30, 2017)

kitekrazy said:


> Just curious about VE Pro. If one upgraded to VEP 6 does it overwrite VEP 5?



Not in terms of licenses at least. When you upgrade you end up with a 5 and a 6 license in your elicenser. I don't know if you can use both versions at the same time though. What I did was uninstalling 6 and installing 5 and instslling 6 again to test.


----------



## Johann F. (Jul 31, 2017)

Wooow easy there, put down your pitchfork!

I'm lost here, where did you read such absurdity from OP's post? This is not a hate thread, nor he's trying to get people to boycott VSL. He's simply asking for help after having a bad support experience. Maybe sharing the employee's name was a bit unnecessary, but he already edited that part out, so no need to crucify him or demand an apology... that's nonsense.

By the way, I had the same person at VSL help me on many occasions before. Lucky me, right? Sadly that's not OP's case, so how about showing some sympathy and trying to help? 



novaburst said:


> It's always wrong to take issues from a developer and open a hate thread on a forum trying to get people to boycott that Developer why in the world people do this I will never and infact don't even want to try to understand.
> 
> The very fact you gave details that you have the latest update is perhaps telling VSL you should have no issues or the issue is with another software.
> 
> ...


----------



## erica-grace (Jul 31, 2017)

Johann F. said:


> I'm lost here, where did you read such absurdity from OP's post?



In the _original_ op's post. That op has since been edited.


----------



## rrichard63 (Jul 31, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> ... with other software besides Cubase everything was fine. ...



What was Steinberg's response to your inquiry? If you didn't contact them, why not?

I'm aware that this question has already been asked. But I haven't seen an answer yet.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 31, 2017)

Since this ONLY happens in Cubase, it doesn't sound like a VEPro issue at all. As mentioned by Richard, did you try the Steinberg forums? Did you place a support ticket with Steinberg? Are you using static IP's on both master and slave?


----------



## rap_ferr (Jul 31, 2017)

muziksculp said:


> @rap_ferr
> 
> Do you have *ASIO Guard* disabled in Cubase ?
> 
> If not, disable it, and test to see if that helps.



Tried with ASIO Guard enabled and disabled and the problem persists.



rrichard63 said:


> What was Steinberg's response to your inquiry? If you didn't contact them, why not?
> 
> I'm aware that this question has already been asked. But I haven't seen an answer yet.





Wolfie2112 said:


> Since this ONLY happens in Cubase, it doesn't sound like a VEPro issue at all. As mentioned by Richard, did you try the Steinberg forums? Did you place a support ticket with Steinberg? Are you using static IP's on both master and slave?



Created a support ticket with the yamaha distributor here in my country and a post on their forum.

Even though as it's a 3 part software problem, I, a regular customer, don't have how to deal with 3 different companies and 3 different support teams to solve the problem. The developers must have better tools to deal with such situations.


----------



## rap_ferr (Jul 31, 2017)

A different support member answered me today and he/she told me they tested all weekend and could not reproduce this on their side.

I sent him my cubase and my ve pro files.


----------



## studiostuff (Jul 31, 2017)

My recommendation is for you to spend the amount of money it will take you to have a pro in your area examine your system and find the problem. Even if it costs you a little more than you want to spend, having a system that is not working is also an aggravating expense. 

You've stated your new to all this. No shame in needing help from someone who is able/willing/qualified to lay hands on your system and show you the issue. 

It really is not rocket science. You just need some guidance from someone on the scene with your gear. Sometimes it's the very simple stuff that would be obvious to an experienced user that can sink you. 

Sorry you're having trouble. Get help from someone who can look at your system, and so not try to get help from those who are remote. 

Good luck!


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 31, 2017)

Always had fantastic support from VSL. Very surprised that of all companies they would "not reply to his emails" any more. Adding to the equation the OPs general tone, I'm pretty sure there's more to this story, or a quite good reason if they really stopped responding to him.


----------



## JohnG (Jul 31, 2017)

VSL have always had excellent customer service to me. I think it is disrespectful to make this kind of blanket "flame" post for a company that takes quality very seriously.

I also have gotten good help from their forum, and they have VSL employees on it all the time solving problems for people. This thread is uncalled for.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 31, 2017)

@Steinmetzify:



> I get it man. I have loyalty to certain companies too



I too don't want to go on and on with this, but to be clear: I have loyalty to our entire industry, not just to VSL.

My reaction would have been the same with any other company I know.


----------



## novaburst (Jul 31, 2017)

Johann F. said:


> sympathy and trying to help?


I am sure you don't expect every one to agree surly, 

Don't feel rap needs symphony, clearly can stand on his own two feet, and has already answered my post, but hay,



Johann F. said:


> put down your pitchfork!


Haha don't mind this but I have no chips to use it with


----------



## AlexRuger (Jul 31, 2017)

I haven't seen anyone mention this: try using VEP 5. Consensus regarding VEP 6 is that it's buggy and not ready for prime-time. That's the first red flag for me.


----------



## AlexRuger (Jul 31, 2017)

Also, turn off Steinberg Hub. It's pointless and tends to make Cubase a bit unstable.


----------



## rap_ferr (Jul 31, 2017)

AlexRuger said:


> I haven't seen anyone mention this: try using VEP 5. Consensus regarding VEP 6 is that it's buggy and not ready for prime-time. That's the first red flag for me.




Unfortunately I have already tried version 5, and the problem persists.



AlexRuger said:


> Also, turn off Steinberg Hub. It's pointless and tends to make Cubase a bit unstable.




Thanks! I'll try that tomorrow.


----------



## wbacer (Jul 31, 2017)

I know how frustrating it can be to have a technical issue that's keeping you from getting work done.

For months, every time I plugged in my second computer monitor, VEPro6 crashed. If I moved my mouse cursor from one monitor to the other, VEPro6 crashed. I sent multiple crash reports and system reports to VSL and they keep sending me updated builds to try and solve the issue but nothing helped. They could not duplicate the problem and indicated that only a couple of other users were having the same issue. 

FINALLY, they sent me a build that fixed the problem. I'm not famous, I don't have any special connection to VSL beside being one of thousands of users. The point being is that they keep at the issue until it was resolved. Sometimes a week or two would go by but they always can back and said, we are still working on it, try this. They didn't have to do that.

Only a company with the highest commitment to customer service provides that kind of support. If it is a VSL issue you are having hopefully they will be able to solve it. Hang in there, VSL is a good company, life's hard enough as it is, tech issues suck.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 31, 2017)

The only beef I ever had with VSL was a couple of months ago, when a VEPro 6 update caused a corruption to the DNS settings on Mac OS. It still baffles me why they didn't send out a mass email to warn users that the issue was caught, and an update would be out ASAP. Myself and a lot of others had already reinstalled Sierra and sent hours reloading everything. Other than that, they have been great.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 1, 2017)

AlexRuger:



> Consensus regarding VEP 6 is that it's buggy and not ready for prime-time



It works well for me, with one issue: the 32-bit server is literally a non-starter (several instruments that VEP 5 has no problem with cause VEP 6 to crash before finishing launching).

That's using one local machine (Mac Pro 5,1) and one Windows 7 slave.

So I use the VEP 6 64-bit server and when I need it, the 32-bit VEP 5 server on my main Mac (the PC only has 64-bit instruments).


----------



## rap_ferr (Aug 1, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> AlexRuger:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hello, is your main computer a mac and your slave a pc? Are you running OSX 10.12.6 and Windows 10? Could you replicate the test I showed in the video, please?

I don't know what else to do...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 1, 2017)

10.12.6 and Windows 7. Can you summarize the test?

My setup is pretty simple: cable modem into Port 8 of an unmanaged ethernet switch, both machines (and others that I never use) connected to lower-numbered ports in the switch.

I also have Wi-Fi running through the house, but that's not relevant to this.

Edit: actually, ^ is slightly wrong. I have the modem connected to an Apple Airport Extreme Base Station, and one of its outputs goes to the switch.


----------



## JJP (Aug 1, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> A different support member answered me today and he/she told me they tested all weekend and could not reproduce this on their side.
> 
> I sent him my cubase and my ve pro files.



Ouch! While people have been bashing them online, VSL have been quietly working over their weekend trying to diagnose this user's problem. I don't know about anyone else, but that makes me feel a bit ashamed.


----------



## JohnG (Aug 1, 2017)

AlexRuger said:


> Consensus regarding VEP 6 is that it's buggy and not ready for prime-time



Not here -- using VE Pro 6 for a good while now and it's fine. They had a bad update but fixed it over the weekend -- must have been a month ago or more.


----------



## rap_ferr (Aug 1, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> 10.12.6 and Windows 7. Can you summarize the test?
> 
> My setup is pretty simple: cable modem into Port 8 of an unmanaged ethernet switch, both machines (and others that I never use) connected to lower-numbered ports in the switch.
> 
> I also have Wi-Fi running through the house, but that's not relevant to this.



Thanks! I also have wifi. I'm connecting straight from the motherboard of the pc to the ethernet connection of the mac pro.

Basically:

1) Initialize 4 or 5 instances on the pc slave, open kontakt in all of them (no need to load libraries), using the 64bit server.

2) Connect this instances in Cubase.

3) Load 3 or 4 instances of Kontakt (I'm using 5.6.8) on the main computer as instrument tracks directly into Cubase.

4) Save the project and open it again.


You should have one or more random instances from the slave showing as not connected.


----------



## JohnG (Aug 1, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> 1) Initialize 4 or 5 instances on the pc slave



Why are you using more than one instance? I use one instance of VE Pro on each PC slave computer.


----------



## rap_ferr (Aug 1, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Why are you using more than one instance? I use one instance of VE Pro on each PC slave computer.



Hello,

Sometimes just to easily have different channels in Cubase (I'm aware you can set different outputs). So I usually use one for Strings, other for Brass, other for Woodwinds and so on... and because I have it set to 32 midi ports.

I also was told to separate instances of Play from instances of Kontakt.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 1, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> Thanks! I also have wifi. I'm connecting straight from the motherboard of the pc to the ethernet connection of the mac pro.
> 
> Basically:
> 
> ...



This isn't making much sense. You need to load the VEPro 6 64 bit server on each machine BEFORE opening Cubase (unless you are already doing this). You then load VEPro in an instrument track, and connect to the slave instance that way. Why are you loading Kontakt as instrument tracks??


----------



## JohnG (Aug 1, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> Sometimes just to easily have different channels in Cubase (I'm aware you can set different outputs). So I usually use one for Strings, other for Brass, other for Woodwinds and so on... and because I have it set to 32 midi ports.



I would use separate Kontakt instances within VE Pro, not separate VE Pro instances. Unless there is a constraint on the number of Cubase outputs, that would simplify your setup on the PC slave. 

You don't have to have everything loaded either if you adopt this approach. As you may know, with VE Pro 6 you can set up groups and turn them off when not using them to save resources on the slave; so if you're writing only for strings you can turn off the other instrument groups. 



rap_ferr said:


> I also was told to separate instances of Play from instances of Kontakt.



You can mix PLAY and Kontakt inside VE Pro with no problems. I do it every day. Quite some time ago -- at least a year, maybe two or three -- there was a memory server issue within Kontakt that was "grabbing" all the RAM as soon as it was added, but that has been fixed.

I don't know of any reason to use more than one VE Pro instance and I wonder if that extra complexity is messing things up.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 1, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Why are you using more than one instance? I use one instance of VE Pro on each PC slave computer.



I have multiple instances in my setup, typically one for each instrument "family", such as strings, Woodwinds, percussion, brass, etc. Usually about 12 instances. I actually have a colleague who uses an instance per instrument, and has 50+ instances open at any given time. Crazy, but it works.


----------



## ctsai89 (Aug 1, 2017)

this is great! I'm finally seeing musicians helping musicians on this thread instead of the same old usual musicians bashing developer and musicians calling out on the musicians bashing the developer instead of helpining out.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 1, 2017)

ctsai, that post doesn't belong in this thread. What you're doing is not helping musicians, it's tweaking musicians (primarily me) passive-aggressively. You're welcome to use the PM system for that if you feel the need.

Further replies to this post belong in the Off-Topics General Musings section; please do not reply here.

I'm posting this as a Moderator.


----------



## creativeforge (Aug 1, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> this is great! I'm finally seeing musicians helping musicians on this thread instead of the same old usual musicians bashing developer and musicians calling out on the musicians bashing the developer instead of helpining out.



I agree, btw. Isn't it sweet when we can get past the initial rumble to finally get some flow going? But this is only possible because OP actually had the willingness to move forward after the initial "spleen." Sometimes it doesn't happen, and threads get weighed down by the attempts to dial down the volatility, without taking away the right to complain per say. But when people strive for this sweet spot of collaboration, we witness the power of goodwill and the brilliance of cooperation is a testament to the quality of this community...

Qualifies for poem of ecstasy?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 1, 2017)

rap_fer, I've never managed to get a direct ethernet connection between two machines to work.

Has anyone else? It should work, but I have a feeling that's the issue.


----------



## creativeforge (Aug 1, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> ctsai, that post doesn't belong in this thread. What you're doing is not helping musicians, it's tweaking musicians (primarily me) passive-aggressively. You're welcome to use the PM system for that if you feel the need.
> 
> Further replies to this post belong in the Off-Topics General Musings section; please do not reply here.
> 
> I'm posting this as a Moderator.



Sorry Nick, I guess we posted within a few seconds of each other. I was posting mine as a member, just to be clear...


----------



## rap_ferr (Aug 1, 2017)

Wolfie2112 said:


> This isn't making much sense. You need to load the VEPro 6 64 bit server on each machine BEFORE opening Cubase (unless you are already doing this). You then load VEPro in an instrument track, and connect to the slave instance that way. Why are you loading Kontakt as instrument tracks??



Yes, I'm loading the server before.

In my workflow, I have libraries in the slave but I also like to have libraries on my main machine (specially the tempo synced ones, the loop ones and/or the ones that I tweak from project to project).


----------



## rap_ferr (Aug 1, 2017)

JohnG said:


> I would use separate Kontakt instances within VE Pro, not separate VE Pro instances. Unless there is a constraint on the number of Cubase outputs, that would simplify your setup on the PC slave.
> 
> You don't have to have everything loaded either if you adopt this approach. As you may know, with VE Pro 6 you can set up groups and turn them off when not using them to save resources on the slave; so if you're writing only for strings you can turn off the other instrument groups.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I'll test with just one instance and see if it works.


----------



## rap_ferr (Aug 1, 2017)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I have multiple instances in my setup, typically one for each instrument "family", such as strings, Woodwinds, percussion, brass, etc. Usually about 12 instances. I actually have a colleague who uses an instance per instrument, and has 50+ instances open at any given time. Crazy, but it works.



Do you have problems with instances showing as not connected when you reopen a Cubase project?


----------



## rap_ferr (Aug 1, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> rap_fer, I've never managed to get a direct ethernet connection between two machines to work.
> 
> Has anyone else? It should work, but I have a feeling that's the issue.



Didn't know there was an issue connecting directly.

I'll see if I can buy a router.


----------



## camelot (Aug 1, 2017)

The complete setup in itself is actually much more complicated.

Genereally, we are not only talking about 3 software tools here, that need to work together flawlessly. Aside from, Cubase, Kontakt, VEPro,problems can arise from OSX and Win10, used network adapters, network drivers (on 2 different machines), drivers of other hardware components (on 2 machines). Even the ethernet cable can cause a problem. I also think a direct ethernet connection is not the least troublesome variant.

However, I would also suspect a problem on the Cubase side as the most probable in your case. I often heard of problems with a combination of OSX, Cubase, Kontakt and VEPro. Usually problems, that do not arise on a PC only systems. 

I have a Win7 DAW-PC with Cubase 8.5 and a Win7 slave-PC with VEPro 6 running perfectly. 
I had some trouble at the beginning though. 
I had Cubase 8.5 already installed, but was still using Cubase 8 as I was testing 8.5 before I emigrate. I always do these side-by-side installations to make sure, the new version does not lower the performance of the system, as it could happen easily with Cubase. I had pops and clicks, so typical indicators for low real time performance. I checked and optimized both systems like crazy but this didn't solved the problem. When I tried with Cubase 8.5 it worked well ever since.

In the end, each system setup is an individual beast, each with its own characteristics or special effects. Often, this makes it impossible to reproduce the error.


----------



## wcreed51 (Aug 1, 2017)

Didn't you say back at the begging that things work fine with Logic and Studio One? Why aren't you going to Steinberg for support if these problems happen with Cubase?


----------



## creativeforge (Aug 1, 2017)

camelot said:


> The complete setup in itself is actually much more complicated.
> 
> Genereally, we are not only talking about 3 software tools here, that need to work together flawlessly. Aside from, Cubase, Kontakt, VEPro,problems can arise from OSX and Win10, used network adapters, network drivers (on 2 different machines), drivers of other hardware components (on 2 machines). Even the ethernet cable can cause a problem. I also think a direct ethernet connection is not the least troublesome variant.
> 
> ...



@rap_ferr : ^ THIS. Considering the travel route of your signal from trigger through to conversion and audition, and using two different OS technologies and different samplers, it is possible the issue be slight incompatibility with hardware vs software. Drivers can also play a role, but I'm sure you considered that too. Looks like there could be a "simple solution" somewhere, just need to find the bottle-neck and solution, eh?


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 1, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> rap_fer, I've never managed to get a direct ethernet connection between two machines to work.
> 
> Has anyone else? It should work, but I have a feeling that's the issue.



Yes, this is how I have connected from day one. The key is having static IP's. It should look like this....

MAC Master:

IP Address: 10.0.5.2
Subnet 255.255.255.0

Leave the other fields blank.

PC Slave:

IP Address: 10.0.5.3
Subnet 255.255.255.0

Leave the other fields blank.

If anyone wants a good set of instructions for routing multiple instances in Cubase, send me a PM. It's laid out for Cubase 7, but the same principle applies.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 1, 2017)

Wolfie, for me it's more complicated than just setting the right IP numbers and subnets - in fact any fixed IP addresses within the allotted ranges should work (meaning it doesn't have to be 10.0.5.2 and 3). The Mac Pro has two Ethernet ports.


----------



## rap_ferr (Aug 1, 2017)

wcreed51 said:


> Didn't you say back at the begging that things work fine with Logic and Studio One? Why aren't you going to Steinberg for support if these problems happen with Cubase?



Thanks, I'm also waiting for Steinberg support reply my e-mail.


----------



## rap_ferr (Aug 1, 2017)

creativeforge said:


> @rap_ferr : ^ THIS. Considering the travel route of your signal from trigger through to conversion and audition, and using two different OS technologies and different samplers, it is possible the issue be slight incompatibility with hardware vs software. Drivers can also play a role, but I'm sure you considered that too. Looks like there could be a "simple solution" somewhere, just need to find the bottle-neck and solution, eh?



That's my hope. But right now, I think I already tested all the possibilities, besides using a router.


----------



## rap_ferr (Aug 1, 2017)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Yes, this is how I have connected from day one. The key is having static IP's. It should look like this....
> 
> MAC Master:
> 
> ...



That's my setup, but I'm using 192's instead of the 10's. This is how the support instructed me to set up when I bought VE PRO 5 back in the day.


----------



## synergy543 (Aug 1, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> I'll see if I can buy a router.


You should get a switch instead. Something like a NetGear or Zyxel Gigabit Switch. (turn adblocker off to see link)


http://www.webopedia.com/DidYouKnow/Hardware_Software/router_switch_hub.asp
"A switch, however, keeps a record of the MAC addresses of all the devices connected to it. With this information, a switch can identify which system is sitting on which port. So when a frame is received, it knows exactly which port to send it to, without significantly increasing network response times. And, unlike a hub, a 10/100Mbps switch will allocate a full 10/100Mbps to each of its ports. So regardless of the number of PCs transmitting, users will always have access to the maximum amount of bandwidth. It's for these reasons a switch is considered to be a much better choice than a hub."


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## AlexRuger (Aug 1, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Why are you using more than one instance? I use one instance of VE Pro on each PC slave computer.


This is not great practice. Splitting up your instruments into multiple VI-Frames means your audio outputs and MIDI inputs count can be lower, which will save a good deal of system resources. For example:

Let's say you're playing a sustained note with a CC1 ramp, 0 to 127, over the duration of the note. Let's say that you have 32 MIDI inputs open via VEP preferences so that you can fit all your instrument hosts into one VI-Frame. When you're sending that _one note, _with _one CC, _from your DAW to VEP, VEP sees MIDI activity on one port and thus "listens" on each and every port. It makes sense for avoiding cracks and pops--VEP won't be off guard by a sudden rush of MIDI data if it's always listening for activity.

So in this example, your processing is being multiplied by 32. You're sending one note and one CC ramp on one channel to one port, but the way VEP is programmed means that it's processing all 32 MIDI inputs. Most people don't run into problems because they don't run absurdly huge templates and processing MIDI is hilariously low-effort, but over at JXL's we ran into serious issues running like this and eventually had to split out the template to different instances.

So, even if you aren't using nearly as many instances as JXL, it's still a good idea to use best practices so that you can add more instruments as needed and avoid running into a wall that you can easily avoid. I think the "typical" way of setting up instances for each orchestral family makes sense. I personally split it into Strings Long, Strings Short, Winds Long, Winds Short, etc. What's nice is that quote-unquote "good" orchestral writing means that you're pretty evenly distributing processing automatically.


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## AlexRuger (Aug 1, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> rap_fer, I've never managed to get a direct ethernet connection between two machines to work.
> 
> Has anyone else? It should work, but I have a feeling that's the issue.


Direct between machines has always worked perfectly fine for me, assuming of course both machines have fixed IP's.


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## Michael Antrum (Aug 1, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> rap_fer, I've never managed to get a direct ethernet connection between two machines to work.
> 
> Has anyone else? It should work, but I have a feeling that's the issue.



One thing worth bearing in mind is that some ethernet cards requires a cross-over ethernet cable for a direct connection to work. Some more modern cards can work with standard patch leads though.


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## JohnG (Aug 1, 2017)

AlexRuger said:


> Splitting up your instruments into multiple VI-Frames means your audio outputs and MIDI inputs count can be lower, which will save a good deal of system resources



I use MidiOverLAN CP for midi and hardware for audio. That might explain why for what I have a single instance works fine, though for the OP that is not the case.

I still don't understand how multiple instances demand less overhead than a single instance, but I will back out since I don't work that way.


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## AlexRuger (Aug 1, 2017)

JohnG said:


> I still don't understand how multiple instances demand less overhead than a single instance, but I will back out since I don't work that way.


You're right, this doesn't quite apply to you, and also it really only applies to people running the VST3 version of VEP (i.e. with Cubase), but I'll clarify for the sake of people looking at this post in the future:

Okay, so let's say again that you have a single instance (aka VI-Frame) with 32 ports.

You could split out that instance into two instances and lower your ports to 16 per instance (this just so happens to be the number I've landed at for my own rig). You could split out those two instances into four and lower your number of available ports to 8 per instance. In all of these situations, you would have 32 available MIDI ports (I'm using common powers of 8 to keep things simple, but it could be 40 or 20 or 72 or 65 or 13...all are possible).

The problem with the first example of 32 MIDI ports is that if you write automation for just one CC on one channel on one port, you're going to have 32 ports * 16 channels * 128 CC's listening for activity. This is just how VEP functions. 

This means that the amount of MIDI processing is the same at all times, as long as you're using 1 or more CC's at a given moment. Makes sense, because if VEP didn't do this, it'd have to start listening to a certain port or channel or CC *after* the event had already passed, which would cause pops and clicks. Using zero means we're at rest, which is a different discussion. But when playing back music, in real time, VEP responds to the use of a single CC on a single channel going to a single port the same as it would to using all 128 CC's on all 16 channels on all 32 ports. They all "light up."

We're only talking about MIDI here, so this is simply not a problem if you aren't running a massive template and/or have a powerful machine. MIDI is chump change in terms of processing load nowadays. 

I personally use 16 ports because it just feels right (16 channels, 16 ports, nice and simple), and I have one VEP slave machine, so I never got close to reaching the limit. I only became aware of this once I started working for Tom, who was using 40 MIDI ports in a single, fully-loaded instance, and finally one day reached the limit (that's 81,920 MIDI CC's that VEP is listening for at all times, and that's not even including note-on, pitch-bend, stuff like that!). The team reached this limit shortly before I started working there, but it must have been a bit weird to see just one sustained note with one CC1 curve causing cracks and pops on a 24-core machine with 192GB of RAM!

Splitting up instances into two and halving our max MIDI inputs number solved this problem (now VEP is listening for just 40,960 CC's per instance). You're assuming that adding more instances would increase resource usage, and you're not wrong. Obviously each instance takes up its own place in a finite system. But the added processing required by a second instance is nothing compared to VEP listening to half as many MIDI inputs. Because now, if that single note with its single CC ramp plays, it's activating half as many MIDI inputs, because that number applies to each instance. 

Lest someone think, "Wait, now you have two instances, so if each instance is playing just one note, wouldn't the problem be the same?" The answer is no, because as far as I understand, we're talking about how much MIDI a single instance can handle--not VEP (i.e. the metaframe) itself. This problem was difficult to pinpoint for exactly this issue: no cores were spiking, the CPU percentage at the bottom right was in a healthy range.

But, again, this isn't something that most people will run into. It takes a LOT to overwhelm VEP like that. But I think it's best to discourage anything that isn't best practice, because everyone's system is different, so these problems scale differently. 

If someone with a tiny, crappy little VEP slave machine came on here seeing that using one instance is the way to go, this person might start with something sensible like 8 MIDI ports. And then they need another, so they add another. And another and another, until their crappy little machine can't handle 20 ports being lit up all the time, and suddenly _nothing _is playing back, and they don't know what the problem is, and how would they?

For a lot of people on here, they might have a good deal of unnecessarily open MIDI ports, so splitting out their template a little bit might give a bit more headroom.

Anyways, that's my long spiel for why more instances and fewer MIDI ports is better than the reverse. Hope it helps someone!


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## rap_ferr (Aug 1, 2017)

Apparently more people have this kind of issue too: https://www.vsl.co.at/community/pos...nces-every-time-I-load-the-project#post260647


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## jononotbono (Aug 1, 2017)

AlexRuger said:


> You're right, this doesn't quite apply to you, and also it really only applies to people running the VST3 version of VEP (i.e. with Cubase), but I'll clarify for the sake of people looking at this post in the future:
> 
> Okay, so let's say again that you have a single instance (aka VI-Frame) with 32 ports.
> 
> ...



This post is amazing! Thanks for sharing that. I'm going to re-evalutae my VEpro Templates. I don't have 1 Instance but I have 19 ports in one instance, 26 in another, and about 10 in another 3. I can't remember exactly right now but it's a lot. This could be the root of my problems and if it is I owe you so many beers someday man for explaining this!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 1, 2017)

Mikeybabes:



> One thing worth bearing in mind is that some ethernet cards requires a cross-over ethernet cable for a direct connection to work. Some more modern cards can work with standard patch leads though



My understanding is that crossover cables went out with Gigabit Ethernet.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 1, 2017)

AlexRuger said:


> Direct between machines has always worked perfectly fine for me, assuming of course both machines have fixed IP's.



Yep, it's a clean setup. Adding a switch or router is just adding one more possible headache IMO. Unless or course, you have more than one slave.


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## EgM (Aug 1, 2017)

For what it's worth, I use one instance per instrument in my 202 track template. 202 instances, mainly because I prefer to mix in daw and have the ability to freeze each track independently. That's with one slave (i7-3770/32gb/win8.1, not even close to new) with no issues at all...

Of course, I use a house network through many switches and with static IPs of course.

Sadly I couldn't check with Cubase because I'm on Logic...


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 1, 2017)

Literally one instance per instrument? I'm really glad you are doing this, because I often wondered if it were feasible. Especially in Logic, where the routing options are very limited (and the Aux track thing is a real resource killer). I'm going to try this and see how it goes, because I really prefer having full control over each track/instrument.


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## Michael Antrum (Aug 1, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Mikeybabes:
> 
> My understanding is that crossover cables went out with Gigabit Ethernet.



You might be surprised.... but if not I can't understand why you can't get a direct connection to work. I run my Mac VE Pro Server to an iMac with a direct connection.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Aug 2, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> rap_fer, I've never managed to get a direct ethernet connection between two machines to work.
> 
> Has anyone else? It should work, but I have a feeling that's the issue.


I have a direct ethernet connection between my Mac Pro 2012 and my Windows 10 Slave machine, it works fine

One thing I do notice about the OPs system is that his VEP instances are not using any buffer at all :/ And he is running some heavy libraries there...


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## Simon Ravn (Aug 2, 2017)

Steinmetzify said:


> Looks like at least 6 more emails and a video detailing his issue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You'll be missing out big time - and I mean BIG TIME, if you decide never to buy anything from VSL. Vienna Ensemble Pro is hands down the most (or 2nd most, if you put the sequencer at the top) important piece of software for me and countless others who work with music on a computer today. It is such a brilliantly designed workhorse, one of the best pieces of software ever written for composers.

You will find no other piece of software that can replace VEP, and if you are serious about composing using a DAW, you'll be sorry that you dismissed VSL because of ONE user experience.

I have immense respect for what VSL have achieved. Even if I don't use their sample libraries that much, I know they are of a high quality and work for many others. Even without that, VEP alone is an amazing achievement and a piece of software so many composers rely on today. So I guess it must be working for the most part.

Without having read the full thread, it seems it could be a Cubase problem - or a combination of Cubase and VEP. Either way, it is very likely to be solved, and it must be version specific to either pieces of software, since I know of many Cubase users having success with VEP. Or it could be system specific, or workflow specific. I see the OP uses several instances of VEP and such, which complicates the setup. There really could be a ton of reasons for these issues.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 2, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> You might be surprised.... but if not I can't understand why you can't get a direct connection to work. I run my Mac VE Pro Server to an iMac with a direct connection.



Again, for me the issue is that there are two Ethernet ports on the Mac Pro, and I need one of them to connect to the Internet. Also, I use Remote Desktop and my computers are in the garage next to my room, making it a physical PITA to set up (I have to connect a monitor and keyboard, and run in there to make every change). So I probably didn't try all that hard when I did.  

I just looked up "crossover cable" on Wikipedia. This would seem to confirm that crossover cables don't apply to Gigabit Ethernet:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_crossover_cable


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## EgM (Aug 2, 2017)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Literally one instance per instrument? I'm really glad you are doing this, because I often wondered if it were feasible. Especially in Logic, where the routing options are very limited (and the Aux track thing is a real resource killer). I'm going to try this and see how it goes, because I really prefer having full control over each track/instrument.



Yep, one instance per instrument. Works perfectly for me


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 2, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Again, for me the issue is that there are two Ethernet ports on the Mac Pro, and I need one of them to connect to the Internet. Also, I use Remote Desktop and my computers are in the garage next to my room, making it a physical PITA to set up (I have to connect a monitor and keyboard, and run in there to make every change). So I probably didn't try all that hard when I did.



If you're using remote desktop, why do you need to run into the garage to make changes, etc? You should be able to do all that via remote desktop, no?


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## jononotbono (Aug 2, 2017)

If anyone knows how to look at crash reports here are 6 crash reports from VEPro 6 today. I have just e-mailed them to VSL. Basically my setup is completely unstable at the minute. Don't have a clue why. I might go back to 5 at this rate but it's an awful faff to change back at this moment.


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## rap_ferr (Aug 2, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> Thanks! I also have wifi. I'm connecting straight from the motherboard of the pc to the ethernet connection of the mac pro.
> 
> Basically:
> 
> ...



Can somebody replicate this please? It's a 10 minute task at most.


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## rap_ferr (Aug 2, 2017)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> I have a direct ethernet connection between my Mac Pro 2012 and my Windows 10 Slave machine, it works fine
> 
> One thing I do notice about the OPs system is that his VEP instances are not using any buffer at all :/ And he is running some heavy libraries there...



I tried using the standard 2 buffer and the problem is still there. :/


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 2, 2017)

Does this happen if you connect to VEPro instances on just the mac? Or is it only when connecting to the slave?


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## rap_ferr (Aug 2, 2017)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Does this happen if you connect to VEPro instances on just the mac? Or is it only when connecting to the slave?



Yes it does!

As soon as I insert a Kontakt instance as an instrument track directly into Cubase random instances of VEPro show as not connected both in my slave (pc) and in my main computer (mac).


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 2, 2017)

Because it's when you're inserting an instrument track with a Kontakt instance, it sounds more like a Cubase/Kontakt issue. Have you tried the NI forums?


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## rap_ferr (Aug 2, 2017)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Because it's when you're inserting an instrument track with a Kontakt instance, it sounds more like a Cubase/Kontakt issue. Have you tried the NI forums?



Thanks! Not yet. I'm waiting for the VSL and the Steinberg support give me an answer. Tried to contact them on Monday. But I'll try there too.


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## C-Wave (Aug 2, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> Can somebody replicate this please? It's a 10 minute task at most.


Could have done this but both pc's are windows 10 here. Did you try the same setup on 2 windows 10 pc's? Instead of having the master as mac?


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## rap_ferr (Aug 2, 2017)

C-Wave said:


> Could have done this but both pc's are windows 10 here. Did you try the same setup on 2 windows 10 pc's? Instead of having the master as mac?



Thanks! Unfortunately I don't have access to 2 pc's.


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## Michael Antrum (Aug 2, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Again, for me the issue is that there are two Ethernet ports on the Mac Pro, and I need one of them to connect to the Internet. Also, I use Remote Desktop and my computers are in the garage next to my room, making it a physical PITA to set up (I have to connect a monitor and keyboard, and run in there to make every change). So I probably didn't try all that hard when I did.
> 
> I just looked up "crossover cable" on Wikipedia. This would seem to confirm that crossover cables don't apply to Gigabit Ethernet:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_crossover_cable



I also have two ethernet ports on my Mac Pro 4,1, which I use as a VEPro slave.. I configure one port with a static ip address and connect that directly to my 5k iMac. The other ethernet port is connected to my router and uses DHCP to get it's address automatically from the router. I just make sure they are on different subnets and IP ranges. Works a treat.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 2, 2017)

mikeybabes, what subnet do you use for the direct connection? I've never encountered anything other than 255 255 255 0.


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## Michael Antrum (Aug 2, 2017)

Lets say my router is set as a DHCP server, and is handing out ip addresses on subnet 255.255.255.0 and in the 192.168.0.xxx range. 

I'll then set the second ethernet port to 255.255.0.0 and manually set the IP address in the 192.168.10.xxx range, and they'll be independent of each other.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 2, 2017)

Okay, thanks.

I'm not sure there's an advantage to my changing (because I still need to download updates on the Windows slave once in a while), but if I run into glitches I know how to set it up now.


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## Apolooseb (Aug 2, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> Good idea! Orchestral Tools and Spitfire seem very reliable companies.


have you tired Spitfire?


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## JPQ (Aug 3, 2017)

What kind problems ? original poster talks.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Aug 3, 2017)

EgM said:


> For what it's worth, I use one instance per instrument in my 202 track template. 202 instances, mainly because I prefer to mix in daw and have the ability to freeze each track independently. That's with one slave (i7-3770/32gb/win8.1, not even close to new) with no issues at all...
> 
> Of course, I use a house network through many switches and with static IPs of course.
> 
> Sadly I couldn't check with Cubase because I'm on Logic...


I went this exact same route for the reason of being able to freeze every single track now 

And thanks to Peter Schwartz and his ARTzID, now I can run every patch I need per instrument, through single instrument tracks


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## rap_ferr (Aug 7, 2017)

I had a very intense testing weekeend, here it goes my results:

- After updating everything I could, it seems that the connection on local machine (using VEPro) is better. I hardly ever open a project and it shows as not connected.

- On a macbook pro (using the thunderbolt - Ethernet adapter) I DON'T have any issues.

Which leads me to the conclusion that the problem is with my mac pro. Of course, I wasn't using the sound card on the macbook pro and I have almost nothing in terms of plugins installed on it.

So, it's either a known problem on the mac pro, or mine is not functioning properly.

Are there any users of late 2013 (trash can) mac pros? With the latest OSX?

I've already tried to press the minus signal for all the networks on the System Preferences and let it create again. I don't know if it really resets the network configurations.

If nobody could not reproduce my issue with this kind of machine (mine is an hexacore, everything else is standard from apple), the problem is only with my unit.

I'd like to avoid formatting the mac pro, as I have machine based licenses installed on it (best service - engine and ALL the complications of Kontakt authorizations).

Also I don't want to end up formating and discover also that's a hardware problem and that I should take it to the apple store to be repaired. Everything show as working, and even with other DAW's, it's working. So it would be very hard even to explain it to apple. Not to mention the fact that they might not have the software and the hardware to test my issue.


What do you suggest? I'm lost...


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Aug 8, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> I had a very intense testing weekeend, here it goes my results:
> 
> - After updating everything I could, it seems that the connection on local machine (using VEPro) is better. I hardly ever open a project and it shows as not connected.
> 
> ...


That will not reset your networking, unless you also delete the .plist files for the networking:
https://elcapitanslow.com/fix-wi-fi-problems-mac-os-sierra/

Hope this helps...PM me about this if you have any questions or reservations


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## rap_ferr (Aug 8, 2017)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> That will not reset your networking, unless you also delete the .plist files for the networking:
> https://elcapitanslow.com/fix-wi-fi-problems-mac-os-sierra/
> 
> Hope this helps...PM me about this if you have any questions or reservations



Thanks! I'll PM you.


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