# Old analogs?



## mwarsell (Apr 11, 2017)

Are old analog synths a wise investment or are they becoming obsolete with players like Diva and Zebra2/Dark Zebra on the market?


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 11, 2017)

For investing, I would recommend owning property/land. For unparalleled fun, choose analog synths. Remember that old synths may need expensive upkeep that might eat at your future profits.


----------



## wst3 (Apr 11, 2017)

Ned hit it on the head!

I have a handful of old analog synths - and most of the time I enjoy keeping them alive almost as much as I enjoy making noise with them. For me that interaction with the individual controls provides inspiration that I still can't quite muster with software synths.

I think the technology has reached a point where I could - if I were smart enough - recreate sounds in software that I created in hardware. So there's that.

If I did not own my dinosaurs I do not think I'd make an effort to purchase them. I paid $300 for a dead ARP 2600 in the early 1990s - even a dead one goes for 10 times that today. Is that a good investment? Only if I were willing to sell it<G>!


----------



## chimuelo (Apr 11, 2017)

New Analogs are gaining popularity.
Old are always useful if maintained.
Zebra2 HZ is still the closest I can get to real analog.
Polyphonic Compressors and separate Oscillator glide are an excellent final touch of authenticity.


----------



## charlieclouser (Apr 12, 2017)

Vintage analog synths are a lot like vintage cars, and I have both. They're fun, but all of the fun is in the journey, not the destination. 

If you just need to get somewhere and be there on time, take the late-model car or the late-model soft synth. 

If you want a little bit of fun with no risk, take the late-model convertible or the late-model hardware analog (Dave Smith P6/OB6, Korg MiniLogue, Model-D reissue, etc.).

If you want to have a big smile on your face, and nobody will be upset if you're two hours / days / weeks late getting to your destination, fire up the seventies muscle car or seventies analog synth. But make sure you have your roadside assistance card good for unlimited 24-hour towing, with the contact info for a good vintage synth service guy written on the back.

I have some choice vintage synths, but when you're browsing eBay late at night debating whether or not to buy a few MORE spare encoders for the Oberheim Xpander, or just one more spare data entry slider for a Prophet-VS - well, it's the same disease as browsing for the 1970-only turn signal lens for a Plymouth Barracuda. 

Very few directors / producers / listeners will give a crap whether you made the sound with a perfectly restored and lovingly maintained $8,000 vintage Jupiter-8 or a $400 Roland Boutique JP-08. If *you* give a crap, that's another story.

I have to say, I get "better" results from soft synths these days. By "better", I mean I have a wider tonal palette at my disposal, with much more complete control (parameter automation, infinite patch storage, etc.), and a more precise and accurate sound. I can get the soft synths to sound harder, louder, fatter, and more in your face than the real things - but that may not be what you're after. (Not to mention unlimited instances!) 

It takes me a couple of minutes to throw up a Zebra-HZ, a Diva, and an ES-2 and get them percolating away in sync to the DAW tempo, with arpeggiators and LFOs all locked nice and tight - but doing that with hardware is going to take an hour, and lots of things that I take for granted with soft synths are just not possible with hardware, even modern ones.

That said, I did buy a Model-D reissue and a TTSH clone of the Arp 2600 recently, and they're every bit as good as they need to be. I've had four vintage Model-D's over the years, and each one was faulty in a different way - but the reissue is the best one yet, and it's brand spanking new. The last Arp 2600 I had was a fickle, scratchy beast, and I'm quite satisfied with the TTSH clone. I have the reissue Korg MS-20 full-size sitting next to a vintage MS-20 and MS-50, and I'll go to the reissue every time - but I'm even more likely to go to the Korg Legacy soft synth version. No oscillators leaking through the filter, no noisy output, etc. 

But in general I've always preferred the precision and quietness of digital - I've never really missed the "analog mojo" that some claim is the source of the magic, whether we're talking mixing consoles, summing busses, or synths. So maybe I'm not the best guy to ask.

Yesterday I was doing a cue that was had a very hard industrial sound - think 1990's Ministry or early NIN - and I was determined to get the Model-D and TTSH 2600 on there. After spending a couple of hours on a bass line, I had both synths recorded with a few different takes with various live tweaking of parameters etc. Then, just "to see" I threw up Zebra-HZ and ES2. Guess which one made it into the final mix? 

Freaking ES2. 

But, yes, I did buy those Xpander encoders off of eBay... and the 1970 'Cuda turn signal lens.


----------



## JPQ (Apr 12, 2017)

Soft synths dont have real knobs and controller for per softsynth is complicated. and i still even Diva and many others modern softsynth are not exactly same thing but room and money things are counted there are still even some older synths are fine. i still dream perfect hardware setup for me.(i want still also hardware no going try look if i found more audiodemos for my style for Kingkorg)


----------



## wst3 (Apr 12, 2017)

Well said Charlie! I haven't traded in my ancient 2600 or MS-20 for reissues yet, and part of that is that I enjoy maintaining them... well, enjoy may not always be the most descriptive word, but even when I'm not enjoying myself it does keep my skills sharp(er).

By the same token I haven't added to the collection in eons. I do have a spot carved out for an Xpander, but I really doubt I'll fill it, that money can go to other tools, a lot more tools, and in some cases more effective tools. But if I ever had the cash sitting around doing nothing an Xpander and an MPG-80 are still at the top of the list, and I do browse eBay looking for someone dumping either one<G>!


----------



## babylonwaves (Apr 12, 2017)

as for the investment part: since ROHS became relevant, all those old chips must not be produced anymore. unless somebody designs a led free replacement and finances a production run which is rather unlikely. that, in combination with the fact that those old, original chips are going to die sooner than later results in a higher risk than many collectors believe.
here's an example: the korg monopoly is rare and you get good money for it, maybe something like $1400 - a single oscillator chip goes for maybe $100 from a possibly iffy eastern source. now when you think take into consideration that the engineers at korg designed a heating for the oscillator chip that warms it up to 80 degrees celsius just to keep it stable, you can assume that this little trick will backfire sooner than later. that's just a random example of many. 

so:if you invest in old gear, make sure you know the risks. this especially goes for electronics.


----------



## wst3 (Apr 12, 2017)

Indeed, "investment" remains a bit of a dodgy concept with respect to synthesizers, I was focused more on Charlie's comments about the 'fun' factor.


----------



## EvilDragon (Apr 12, 2017)

babylonwaves said:


> unless somebody designs a led free replacement and finances a production run which is rather unlikely



CoolAudio/Behringer is on that.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 12, 2017)

Thanks for your excellent points, Charlie.
When it comes to deadline work, it's hard to beat a Zebra/Diva/Omnisphere setup, but engaging with diverse knobs/sliders/buttons, feeling the subtle heat of the heart of hardware beasts, establishing a unique physical relationship with synths is unequaled in software. 
Meanwhile, I'm trying my best to find a way to incorporate Eurocrack into my scoring work - but then, that's another thread subject...


----------



## babylonwaves (Apr 12, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> CoolAudio/Behringer is on that.


interesting, i didn't know off CoolAudio. do you know if Behringer will sell the chips also (and not only their replica synth)?


----------



## EvilDragon (Apr 12, 2017)

CoolAudio is already doing that. You can see some CA chips used in DSI and Elektron synths (SSM2164 clone), etc. They did a clone of CEM3340 chip recently.



https://www.flickr.com/photos/psychlist1972/sets/72157632621387322/


----------



## charlieclouser (Apr 12, 2017)

Yes it's great to see what CoolAudio is doing. 

I've tried all sorts of methods of controlling soft synths from hardware:

- Mackie Control units with C4 knobby boxes = gritty looking displays with truncated parameter names are less than ideal, and the strictly linear layout of knobs and seemingly arbitrary order in which parameters are arrayed across them does not take into account the ergonomic layout of a hardware synth, with LFOs on the left, then oscillators, then mixer, and ADSRs on the right. With a hardware synth, after a while your hand starts moving in the right direction of the knob you want to tweak before you even think about it, but with a setup like the C4 you're paging through banks, squinting at the displays, looking for "ADSR > Filter Amount" when on a hardware synth your hand is already there. Plus, your eyes are forever jumping between the controller and the computer screen, no matter what. It does work, but it's not ideal. If Logic had ever implemented my Nobel-prize-worthy suggestions to implement "parameter hide" and "parameter re-ordering" for MCU and EuCon controllers, then maybe life would get a little easier in this department. But, alas, it was not to be.

- Generic controller boxes like the old Doepfer Drehbank, Novation Launch Control XL, and half a dozen others over the years. Now you can assign whatever knob to whatever parameter you want, and organize them in a manner that resembles a hardware synth's panel layout, or at least makes sense to you. But now you've got the Brother P-Touch labeller out and before you know it you're ordering more white-on-clear TZ series tapes by the bulk carton. And then Logic forgets your parameter maps that you spent all weekend building. And your eyes are still jumping between screen and controller. Better-ish, but still not ideal.

- Touch screen controllers. I've been down a couple of dusty roads with that stuff. At one point I was sure this would be the way forward and I couldn't wait to have a "glass console". But every time I try this kind of setup, my arms get sore, my fingertip is covering up something useful that I need to see, and there's a strange disconnected feeling, possibly related to input lag? I dunno, but it still feels like I'm using the "waldos" from The Andromeda strain to operate the synth. BUT - a well implemented and integrated solution from Apple that would display the real, actual plugin GUI on an iPad and allow for some sort of enhanced fingertip control might just shut me up. Logic Remote / Touch Osc / etc. on the iPad ain't quite there yet for this purpose - for me anyway.

- One-to-one mapping of parameters to hardware controls on boxes like the Korg MS-20ic (the hardware controller for the original Korg Legacy MS-20 soft synth), or the Virus-TI, which has a very well-implemented controller mode where the front panel becomes disconnected from the synth engine and only sends assignable MIDI CC's. Now, at least the knobs are where my hand expects them to be and they have painted-on labels. But the hardware never seems to have the same number or layout of knobs that the software needs, so now you're mousing to get to half of the stuff anyway. Still, this felt the most natural to me and can work well for analog emulation synths like Diva - but less so for more crazy synths like Zebra.

When it comes to vintage synths, I'm more impressed by some of the recent synths coming out - with a Dave Smith OB-6, a Waldorf Quantum, a Model-D reissue, and a Roland System-8 (all together around $10k total) you have got some serious firepower, more or less equivalent to an OB-8, a Waldorf Wave, a Jupiter-8, a Juno-106, a MiniMoog, and a few effects units (around $40k total these days) - with modern convenience and reliability that the old guys can't touch, and at a quarter of the price.

As some have said, if I didn't already have Xpanders and Prophet VS's, I don't know if I'd be buying them right now. Since they've been in my stack for 20+ years, I'll keep them for sure, but.... that Waldorf Quantum is looking pretty good right now.


----------



## synthpunk (Apr 12, 2017)

Best knob box ever!


----------



## babylonwaves (Apr 12, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> CoolAudio is already doing that. You can see some CA chips used in DSI and Elektron synths (SSM2164 clone), etc. They did a clone of CEM3340 chip recently.


great news, thanks for the details


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 13, 2017)

Charlie, have you tried the Matrixbrute? It's pretty outstanding.


----------



## mwarsell (Apr 14, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> Vintage analog synths are a lot like vintage cars, and I have both. They're fun, but all of the fun is in the journey, not the destination.
> 
> If you just need to get somewhere and be there on time, take the late-model car or the late-model soft synth.
> 
> ...



You must be a millionaire.


----------



## synthpunk (Apr 14, 2017)

Just smart, and good timing. Many of us purchased analogs when they were first in production or when the used market was quite affordable and we're smart enough to hold on to them and learn how to upkeep them.

[="mwarsell, post: 4076645, member: 5035"]You must be a millionaire.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Mike Greene (Apr 14, 2017)

Funny timing for me to see this thread. I'm picking up my MiniMoog from the repair shop later today. I'm not sure what the exact bill will be, but I know it will be at least a grand. This thing worked perfectly when I bought it decades ago, but unlike guitars, you can't stick an analog synth in a case and expect it to still be perfect 30 years later.

I own a bunch of old synths (see pic below) and almost all of the analog ones need repair (or already got repaired recently.) For starters, old capacitors will almost always need to be replaced. Just like with an old mixing console, the first thing that always gets done to bring it back up to snuff is re-capping it. Even my B3 needs to be recapped. (Although the dark timbre is pretty cool.)

Other electronics can also go bad. Pots (knobs) can wear out or freeze. Plus, in my own case, why oh why did I not replace the batteries in the Prophet 5, MemoryMoog or OBXa when I knew they were aging and I knew the consequences of leaving them in??? Ugh.

And then there are key bushings, which often need to be replaced as well. In the picture below, you can see the MiniMoog's keys (pre-repair) aren't level. They weren't like that when I bought it. Old rubber (or whatever they use) dries and cracks.

Finally, vintage synths were often works in progress. With my MiniMoog, one part of my repair expense wasn't a repair, but rather was an updating of the electronics. Early MiniMoogs didn't maintain consistent tuning as you go up the octaves. It was a design flaw which Moog fixed as of a certain serial number, but mine is before that serial number, so my repair guy asked if I wanted to add it. I think it was another hundred bucks, so I said okay.

I paid peanuts for most of my synths decades ago, but when you add in repairs, from an investment standpoint, I would probably have done better in the stock market. I think I'm putting my repair guy's kids through college.

But . . . I get a much bigger creative kick in the pants from my old analog synths than from virtual. The end result may or may not sound better, but I feel more like I'm creating, as opposed to assembling, so it's a much more satisfying experience. I believe there's value in that.


----------



## charlieclouser (Apr 14, 2017)

mwarsell said:


> You must be a millionaire.



Well..... I bought the seventies muscle cars in the late 1980's, when nobody gave a damn - long before there were televised auctions! They were just beat up gas hogs at the time. Lately, with all the hype over rare models and baby boomers wanting to re-buy their high school cars, something similar to the CoolAudio re-release / cloning of old synthesizer IC chips has happened - now I can get newly-manufactured-in-China replica parts (except for that darn front turn signal housing!) instead of trying to snipe auctions on eBay. Sacrilege? Probably. But my 'Cuda was originally a brown, slant-six, three-on-the-tree librarian's car, so it's not like I'm putting cheap repro parts on a one-of-seven HemiCuda convertible.

Same with the synths. I bought all the vintage ones when they were just keyboards nobody wanted. In 1992 nobody cared about a Prophet VS or Oberheim Xpander all that much - they just wanted the Korg M-1 with that "house music piano" sound. People would come into Sam Ash in NYC trying to trade a MemoryMoog for a DX-7, and the manager would offer them $600 in store credit. So I'd meet them down the street on my lunch break and give them $800. I think the most I spent on a vintage synth back then was $1,200 for a Prophet VS rack. Most were stupid cheap - my first synth was an Arp Solus I bought out of the back of the Village Voice classifieds for $200. My first MS-20 was $400, and so was my first Model-D. Jupiter-8 = $1,000. Xpander with Oddenmart external audio input modification = $900. etc. etc. etc.

When I see Jupiter-8's going for $8k I roll my eyes a little bit - but just a little bit. It is a beautiful looking synth!

But I won't deny that my recent purchase of synths like the reissue Model-D is partly out of nostalgia. It's not like I "needed" it to get a certain sound - I just hadn't had one since I got rid of the last beat up one for around $1,000 fifteen years ago, and, like the Prophet VS and Xpander, the Model-D was integral to the sound of the records NIN made during my years in the band, so I felt like it was a nod to all those years spent laboring with hardware. Plus, it's beautifully made and sounds as good as a Model-D should.

But for the most part I try to consider synths, computers, and software more like nails than hammers. A hammer is an investment - something you buy once and expect to use forever - but a nail is a consumable, something you purchase by the bucketload and consume during the performance of your job. Trying to keep this theory in mind helps me not take these purchases all that seriously.


----------



## charlieclouser (Apr 14, 2017)

BTW - nice stack Mike! How's that MemoryMoog holding up? Six tuned?


----------



## synthpunk (Apr 14, 2017)

Got Lamm ?



charlieclouser said:


> BTW - nice stack Mike! How's that MemoryMoog holding up? Six tuned?


----------



## Living Fossil (Apr 14, 2017)

mwarsell said:


> Are old analog synths a wise investment or are they becoming obsolete with players like Diva and Zebra2/Dark Zebra on the market?



Real analog synths, specially the older ones have a magic that i haven't heard from softsynths (and i use the whole u-he palette etc, etc.). It's like there would be some living electrons inside of these boxes.
However, the better the softsynths get, the more people realize the difference to the real thing (seems paradox, but isn't, since the ear adapts over time), and therefore the prizes reach in some cases astronomical heights.
The good thing is, there are always periods, and each period has their "overseen" oldies.
Last year, i bought a jx-8p at a no-brainer prize, and while it's not a Jupiter 8, I'm really astonished how fantastic it can sound (had a mks-70, which is its rack version, but much weaker soundwise, afair).

And while the argument may be valid, that with short deadlines etc. it may be safter to stick to softsynths, there is a factor which may be the opposite: when i turn on e.g. the jx-8p, it often comes with instant inspiration. And this can be a huge time-saver. Of course, it is dependent on what the task is, sometimes Zebra is perfect for getting ideas, sometimes string samples, sometimes the piano, sometimes a walk in the nearby park.


----------



## Mike Greene (Apr 14, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> BTW - nice stack Mike! How's that MemoryMoog holding up? Six tuned?


Thanks! Funny, I got these in pretty much the same way you did. In fact, I got a chuckle out of your Korg M1 example, because that's exactly what I saw, too.

I got such great deals on almost all of it, but boy, am I paying now. I hadn't really played any of my vintage stuff in years, since software is so much easier, but one day I decided to have some fun and spend the day firing up each keyboard, one by one. Get inspired, going back to my roots, as it were. What a depressing day that was! The digital stuff was all fine, but not one analog synth played properly. Many didn't work at all. So I've been sending one or two keyboards at a time to the shop.

I started with the combo organs. (Continental, Farfisa, G101 and some other odd ones.) Those are all done now. I normally wouldn't care that much about combo organs, but this whole ordeal has given me new appreciation for each of the instruments.

The MemoryMoog is there right now. Here was the tech's first report:

*Memorymoog*
_poor guy. this guy is pretty sick. got this guy to come to life just having it sit on for a few minutes. most keys do not function. leds flicker when pressing the keys that do work indicating some power issues. probably bad (old) components. pretty loud transformer noise. warbbly oscillators. needs key bushings as well as this thing is so loud and clacky. definitely needs all key contacts, switches and pots cleaned. it needs a new glide pot (as it is broken). luckily 5 of the six voices are alive-ish. voice 2 is dead. i’ll have to investigate as to why. sometimes it has trouble auto-tuning the other 5. voice 6’s VCF is off and voice 4 has a hanging VCA. The filter may be fixed with calibration but a hanging VCA is usually indicative of a failing component or IC. It is probable that a CEM or 2 chips have frizzed by now. I know this machine relies heavily on the CEM chips (uses about 40 of them). there are also various oscillator quirks in pot values to numeric buttons not working._

And that's just what he's found so far.


----------



## charlieclouser (Apr 14, 2017)

Oh man, Mike, I feel your MemoryMoog-related pain. At one point I had three of them (!!!), two "plus" models and one O.G. - and none cost me more than $1k. At any given point, two of them were not happy. "0 TUNED" became my most-viewed screen display! I did learn how to tune them up, but leaning over the thing, with the panel open but still connected by the too-short ribbon cables, and trying to read the tiny red LEDs with flashing hexadecimal numbers, upside down, while operating 18 separate trim pots.... ugh. Pain.

I still have a new-in-box "plus" upgrade kit that I never installed thirty years ago, and I kept it "just in case" I ever came across a pristine non-plus MemoryMoog. But what a *beast* that synth is. It only makes three sounds I would ever use, and two of them are 18-oscillator unison patches!

At one point, I was determined to sample that sound into my Akai S-1000's, but it never sounded as good as it did coming right out of the back of the unit. I think the waveform is just too big to fit in 16 bits! Still, I did get it sampled and then I could layer two separate sets of samples, panned left+right, for the ultimate 36-oscillator unison bass. 

Woof.


----------



## mwarsell (Apr 14, 2017)

Mike Greene said:


> Funny timing for me to see this thread. I'm picking up my MiniMoog from the repair shop later today. I'm not sure what the exact bill will be, but I know it will be at least a grand. This thing worked perfectly when I bought it decades ago, but unlike guitars, you can't stick an analog synth in a case and expect it to still be perfect 30 years later.
> 
> I own a bunch of old synths (see pic below) and almost all of the analog ones need repair (or already got repaired recently.) For starters, old capacitors will almost always need to be replaced. Just like with an old mixing console, the first thing that always gets done to bring it back up to snuff is re-capping it. Even my B3 needs to be recapped. (Although the dark timbre is pretty cool.)
> 
> ...


I'd spend a year in your studio without sleep or food.


----------



## synthpunk (Apr 15, 2017)

Mike, unless you want your Memorymoog to be an endless money pit I would recommend looking into the Lintronics Lamm retrofit. Not cheap it may take awhile to get done but should be worth it.

http://www.lintronics.de/lamm.html

Also look into Greg Montalbano in the Bay area for affordable repairs. I have his info somewhere if you/anyone needs it pm me.



charlieclouser said:


> Oh man, Mike, I feel your MemoryMoog-related pain. At one point I had three of them (!!!), two "plus" models and one O.G. - and none cost me more than $1k. At any given point, two of them were not happy. "0 TUNED" became my most-viewed screen display! I did learn how to tune them up, but leaning over the thing, with the panel open but still connected by the too-short ribbon cables, and trying to read the tiny red LEDs with flashing hexadecimal numbers, upside down, while operating 18 separate trim pots.... ugh. Pain.
> 
> I still have a new-in-box "plus" upgrade kit that I never installed thirty years ago, and I kept it "just in case" I ever came across a pristine non-plus MemoryMoog. But what a *beast* that synth is. It only makes three sounds I would ever use, and two of them are 18-oscillator unison patches!
> 
> ...





charlieclouser said:


> Oh man, Mike, I feel your MemoryMoog-related pain. At one point I had three of them (!!!), two "plus" models and one O.G. - and none cost me more than $1k. At any given point, two of them were not happy. "0 TUNED" became my most-viewed screen display! I did learn how to tune them up, but leaning over the thing, with the panel open but still connected by the too-short ribbon cables, and trying to read the tiny red LEDs with flashing hexadecimal numbers, upside down, while operating 18 separate trim pots.... ugh. Pain.
> 
> I still have a new-in-box "plus" upgrade kit that I never installed thirty years ago, and I kept it "just in case" I ever came across a pristine non-plus MemoryMoog. But what a *beast* that synth is. It only makes three sounds I would ever use, and two of them are 18-oscillator unison patches!
> 
> ...


----------



## charlieclouser (Apr 15, 2017)

Man, an LAMM MemoryMoog is the dream - a fever dream, but still. There's one on eBay right now priced at *$30k* (!!!!) and it's been for sale forever. If I still had three MemoryMoogs I'd sell two and send one to Rudi for the LAMM upgrade for sure. 

Every time the guys from Moog ask what kind of synth they should make next, I say one thing - *MemoryMoog reissue.* No changes other than per-voice panning to stereo outputs and a modern CPU and MIDI. Okay, maybe more modulation sources. And maybe a step sequencer. And a better noise source. Okay, a few changes.

But I've been waving that flag for a long time. I keep saying it should look *identical* to the original - the cosmetics were a big part of the appeal. It just looks *serious*. That space-age font on the name plate, the pulsar-watch-style alphanumeric LED display, the metal, the wood, the name... mmmmmmMemoryMoog.

Maybe, given the success of the Model-D reissue, that idea could gain some traction down in Asheville? Fingers crossed. I'd buy one.


----------



## synthpunk (Apr 16, 2017)

Charlie, we'll they have gotten to duophonic

Actually I had recently heard that Moog have fired there recent designer. Maybe that means someone comes in with Poly design experience? On the other hand could they get anywhere close to a price point of say DM - 12 or the Dave Smith stuff? For me and you we don't really care but for the masses I know that's an important thing they look at and they've always said price point is a key why they have not done a Poly. I also rather like some of the recent designs I have a Minotaur, Mother-32, and Sub 37.

Happy Easter



charlieclouser said:


> Man, an LAMM MemoryMoog is the dream - a fever dream, but still. There's one on eBay right now priced at *$30k* (!!!!) and it's been for sale forever. If I still had three MemoryMoogs I'd sell two and send one to Rudi for the LAMM upgrade for sure.
> 
> Every time the guys from Moog ask what kind of synth they should make next, I say one thing - *MemoryMoog reissue.* No changes other than per-voice panning to stereo outputs and a modern CPU and MIDI. Okay, maybe more modulation sources. And maybe a step sequencer. And a better noise source. Okay, a few changes.
> 
> ...


----------



## pdub (Apr 16, 2017)

Great thread! I love all your analogies Charlie!

I own most of the latest Softsynths and Kontakt instruments and use them daily in my work. I could not live without modern software. I also own a vintage Minimoog, Pro One, SH-101, OB-8, Jupiter 4, Polysix and soon will have a Jupiter 8! 

I've owned and sold quite a few of the new analogs - OB6, Sub37, Pro 2, Minilogue, Elektron to name a few.

For me the new analog stuff really lacks the soul and organic sound of the older stuff. The functionality of the new stuff I've tried is great but at the end of the day the sound just isn't there. Almost too clean and perfect. Probably do to modern manufacturing and surface mount parts. There's more drift and natural detuning in the vintage stuff I suppose. It's very subjective but for me it's a huge difference. So I've stopped purchasing new analog stuff since I'm usually disappointed.

I also possess just enough audio electronics knowledge to calibrate, restore and modify these instruments so they perform just as well in terms of stability as if they were a new instrument. So I save a lot not paying a tech and I do truly enjoy it.

I do manage to incorporate the analogs in fast paced commercial work. And I have even been asked to do certain jobs because people know I have these instruments. It's really a labor of love though. Do I need them? No, but I love having them and they do add something special for me.


----------



## Mike Greene (Apr 16, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Mike, unless you want your Memorymoog to be an endless money pit I would recommend looking into the Lintronics Lamm retrofit. Not cheap it may take awhile to get done but should be worth it.
> http://www.lintronics.de/lamm.html
> Also look into Greg Montalbano in the Bay area for affordable repairs. I have his info somewhere if you/anyone needs it pm me.


Wow, that's quite a mod! How much is it? Avoiding an endless money pit would be nice, but I suspect this may be just paying for the full money pit price in advance.


----------



## charlieclouser (Apr 16, 2017)

The LAMM mod is like, I dunno... $8k or something like that? Don't quote me on that, it's been a while since I saw a price posted on Rudi's site - plus you've got to get the unit over to him in Germany. But I'm sure it's worth every penny. It's a complete overhaul, rebuild, and a freaking brain transplant. Stereo outputs! MIDI CC control! It's bad ass for sure.


----------



## wst3 (Apr 16, 2017)

Most of the stuff he lists is bread-and-butter refurb work, but it is tedious work, and I'm really pleased to see that he appears to be getting a fair return for his efforts.

It is the stuff that he ADDs to the device, the MIDI stuff alone seems like a no-brainer if you have the cash to make it happen. I must have re-read that page three times, I just can't believe the effort he has put into this! My head is officially spinning!

It's been eons since I saw the inside of a MemoryMoog, so I don't remember any of the particulars, but in spite of the fact that a great deal was done with digital controls (compared to a mini or a 2600 for example) it still seems like an enormous effort.

One of the few times I've ever uttered the sentence "boy I'm glad I don't own a Memory Moog!!!" - maybe the only time<G>!


----------



## charlieclouser (Apr 16, 2017)

When the Moog guys asked my opinion on what I'd like to see in a theoretical future Moog poly synth, I told them to *please* not just put six Slim Phatty boards in a box with a Fatar key bed, and I hope they don't go that route. It's gotta be three oscillators per voice to get that Moog sound (Model-D or MemoryMoog). 

If it's too much for them to go the full MemoryMoog re-issue route, maybe Dave Smith could help? Perhaps an MM-6, with similar form factor to the OB-6 and Prophet-6, with MemoryMoog cosmetics and a three-oscillator, Moog LPF design?

I mean, it wouldn't be as sweet as a full Moog re-issue, but it's something - and it would seem to fit in nicely with the other all-analog Dave Smith synths, which really do sound quite good.


----------



## Mike Greene (Apr 17, 2017)

wst3 said:


> Most of the stuff he lists is bread-and-butter refurb work, but it is tedious work, and I'm really pleased to see that he appears to be getting a fair return for his efforts.
> 
> It is the stuff that he ADDs to the device, the MIDI stuff alone seems like a no-brainer if you have the cash to make it happen. I must have re-read that page three times, I just can't believe the effort he has put into this! My head is officially spinning!


Yeah, I imagine the refurb stuff, simple as it may seem, is a big part of this. The rest looks cool, but I can't justify $8k. (Getting a car where the "Check Engine" light isn't always on would be a higher priority at the moment.)

Mine already has MIDI, but I'm gonna ask my tech guy about some of the other stuff. Stereo voices would be really nice, and maybe tweaking the noise circuit isn't too difficult. I wasn't aware of tuning issues (honestly, I hardly ever played this thing even when it was working, since the Prophet 5 was more my speed), but my tech guy will undoubtedly check into that.



wst3 said:


> It's been eons since I saw the inside of a MemoryMoog, so I don't remember any of the particulars . . .


Perhaps this will jog your memory:


----------



## synthpunk (Apr 17, 2017)

Now you know why Bob was against it 



Mike Greene said:


> Yeah, I imagine the refurb stuff, simple as it may seem, is a big part of this. The rest looks cool, but I can't justify $8k. (Getting a car where the "Check Engine" light isn't always on would be a higher priority at the moment.)
> 
> Mine already has MIDI, but I'm gonna ask my tech guy about some of the other stuff. Stereo voices would be really nice, and maybe tweaking the noise circuit isn't too difficult. I wasn't aware of tuning issues (honestly, I hardly ever played this thing even when it was working, since the Prophet 5 was more my speed), but my tech guy will undoubtedly check into that.
> 
> ...


----------



## wst3 (Apr 17, 2017)

oh my... I think there is a reason I forgot what the innards of one of those things looked like<G>. I'm going to have nightmares for sure tonight...

refubishing older electronics is just tedious, lots of steps, and lots of repeated steps, and you have to stay focused... which is a challenge for me. As you learn more you learn that the right tools make a huge difference - the first console I refurbished was a smaller, 16 channel desk, and thank heavens, because it was still loaded with capacitors and ICs that needed to be replaced. I lost count of the hours, and I'm sure I lost money. The next project was a 48 channel board from merry old England - those designers never saw a spot where a capacitor wouldn't look nice! I took the plunge and purchased a de-soldering station, and what a difference. I removed all the capacitors without damaging a single trace (the same could not be said of the first project.) And in probably half the time.

So if you are equipped to do the work it isn't terribly challenging, but it is still tedious. If you aren't equipped it is both. (Sadly I did know better, just couldn't see spending the money on the de-soldering station - foolishly cheap!)

And you have to decide just now nuts you want to go. On a Memory Moog I would replace every one of those IC sockets with a machined socket, or I'd remove the sockets entirely. Huge increase in reliability either way, huge hit on serviceability for the later. And I'd probably just replace all the signal path capacitors, and the larger electrolytic power supply caps. When I do that I use replacements that are slightly over-rated. Then there are the signal path components themselves... do you upgrade the ICs? Do you upgrade the transistors? Do you make changes to the circuit topology? At what point does it stop sounding like a Moog?

All of this comes before the rocket science! Granted the gear I wanted to automate was all analog, so my choices were relays or semiconductor switches to replace all the switches, and each has drawbacks. And for potentiometers it was really no choice at all, motorized pots... at which point the cost goes through the roof. I played around for a while with redesigns (and that is what they were!) that would allow for digital control of analog values, but it never sounded the same, and it was still really expensive.

Irony is, if you can figure out a way to control things from a microprocessor the actual code is nearly easy. It was pretty easy 20 years ago, there are volumes of example code, and with modern processors and languages I have to imagine it has become even easier. Too bad all the rest of the "stuff" gets in the way!

And that's it for today's ramble - I feel the need to go answer some emails<G>!


----------



## synthpunk (Apr 17, 2017)

I refurbed a complete Farfisa once I believe it took me two and a half weeks. Never again I'm sure the old solder fumes lessened my life span 



wst3 said:


> oh my... I think there is a reason I forgot what the innards of one of those things looked like<G>. I'm going to have nightmares for sure tonight...
> 
> refubishing older electronics is just tedious, lots of steps, and lots of repeated steps, and you have to stay focused... which is a challenge for me. As you learn more you learn that the right tools make a huge difference - the first console I refurbished was a smaller, 16 channel desk, and thank heavens, because it was still loaded with capacitors and ICs that needed to be replaced. I lost count of the hours, and I'm sure I lost money. The next project was a 48 channel board from merry old England - those designers never saw a spot where a capacitor wouldn't look nice! I took the plunge and purchased a de-soldering station, and what a difference. I removed all the capacitors without damaging a single trace (the same could not be said of the first project.) And in probably half the time.
> 
> ...


----------



## wst3 (Apr 17, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> I refurbed a complete Farfisa once I believe it took me two and a half weeks. Never again I'm sure the old solder fumes lessened my life span


Love the smell of lead core solder!!!

Does that mean it has already damaged my brain???

many years ago I rebuilt a Fender Rhodes 73 Suitcase for a buddy. It took me about a month of almost solid evenings... replacing the parts wasn't the bad part, tuning it was! The electrical part was a walk in the part, a refreshing change even. I have another Rhodes 73 Suitcase sitting in my garage. I have all the parts in a box in the basement. I wonder if the two will ever be in the same space at the same time... so want to get it working, so dreading the work.

I can't even imagine refurbishing an electric organ... I think that might be even worse than a console... I tip my hat!


----------



## charlieclouser (Apr 17, 2017)

Oh man that picture of the MemoryMoog opened up will give me nightmares. If I remember correctly, that's as far as you can open it up while it's still powered on, and so that's the position you've got to work with when you're attempting to get to the elusive "6 TUNED" on the display. So it's either lean over the thing and look down at the flashing hexadecimal numbers, or, like I did, lean a mirror against the wall behind the thing - so now you're looking at upside-down, mirror-image, flashing, hex numbers on the smallest LED screen ever made, while you use a tweaker to turn those tiny pots.

*shudder*


----------



## wst3 (Apr 17, 2017)

I'm already suffering from flashbacks - I'm pretty certain you are right about opening the thing up only so far. I tried the mirror trick - ONCE - and then gave up<G>


----------



## Daniel James (Apr 18, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> If you just need to get somewhere and be there on time, take the late-model car or the late-model soft synth.
> 
> If you want a little bit of fun with no risk, take the late-model convertible or the late-model hardware analog (Dave Smith P6/OB6, Korg MiniLogue, Model-D reissue, etc.).
> 
> If you want to have a big smile on your face, and nobody will be upset if you're two hours / days / weeks late getting to your destination, fire up the seventies muscle car or seventies analog synth. But make sure you have your roadside assistance card good for unlimited 24-hour towing, with the contact info for a good vintage synth service guy written on the back.



Love this! great way of looking at it!

-DJ


----------

