# Are there any alternatives to Metagrid?



## fustrun (Jun 17, 2019)

Hey all!

I really want to improve my workflow to save time and i saw some videos about Metagrid from Jason Graves and i have to say it is pretty brilliant however i do not have an iPad and as i understand Metagrid is currently only available for apple's iPad.

The thing that struck me the most was the amazing ability to program macros and activate them by tapping the screen .. especially logical editor, this is the main reason i


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## MarcusD (Jun 17, 2019)

Elgato Streamdeck


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 17, 2019)

Liine's Lemur will work on an android device


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## J-M (Jun 17, 2019)

Jdiggity1 said:


> Liine's Lemur will work on an android device



Now let me add to this: Lemur+Composer Tools Pro.


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## fustrun (Jun 17, 2019)

For some reason i imagine stream deck falling down or moving backwards when i would want to use it so i would rather have a tablet.

Lemur is a nice alternative however it looks more complicated, same goes for composer tools.

I want the simplest tool possible.

I am now seeing that the selection of tablets that are running on android is very slim where i live and there are some that run on WIN10 .. are there maybe any windows applications that can do what i want?


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## greggybud (Jun 19, 2019)

fustrun said:


> Hey all!
> 
> I really want to improve my workflow to save time and i saw some videos about Metagrid from Jason Graves and i have to say it is pretty brilliant however i do not have an iPad and as i understand Metagrid is currently only available for apple's iPad.
> 
> The thing that struck me the most was the amazing ability to program macros and activate them by tapping the screen .. especially logical editor, this is the main reason i



I'll assume you have researched purchasing a used iPad? I'm running Metagrid on an iPad 4. I'm not sure how far you can go back. It's brilliant, and I don't know of anything else like it. It's more useful than my MCU DAW controller.


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## InLight-Tone (Jun 19, 2019)

An iPad is totally worth it for Metagrid. I bought one and am glad I did. You're right Lemur is much more complicated. Out of the box Metagrid is pretty easy to customize as well...


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## fustrun (Jun 20, 2019)

Hey all!

thanks for you replies ..

pardon my ignorance as i have never used meta grid nor the logical editor in cubase but isnt metagrid just a keyboard shortcut assigner? i mean it presents a series of buttons that basically simulates one or several key presses? 
With that in mind dosent that mean i can juat take a big touch screen and use an app that simulates key strokes or macros sort of like a gaming keyboard does and use that instead? or am i missing something?

i hope my question is clear.


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## fustrun (Jun 20, 2019)

Taking into consideration i only want to use it for editing and project viewing managment meaning no midi cc information that i want to use.


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## greentuga (Jun 21, 2019)

Following
Not happy with touchosc


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## utopia (Jun 21, 2019)

I’m not sure about this but I have a feeling the dev pretty much quit on developing metagrid further which is very unfortunate. The update with midi faders and other improvements was promised something like 2 years ago now


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## mc_deli (Jun 21, 2019)

utopia said:


> I’m not sure about this but I have a feeling the dev pretty much quit on developing metagrid further which is very unfortunate. The update with midi faders and other improvements was promised something like 2 years ago now


https://vi-control.net/community/threads/metagrid-for-ios-updated-with-le-commands.58820/page-27
Search first, speculate later


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## garyhiebner (Jun 21, 2019)

What are you wanting to use the app for? Articulation switching? Transport control?

I have Metagrid, but found it actually easier to use TouchOSC for my needs. So if you feel like hacking around with TouchOSC, it is more than capable.


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## fustrun (Jun 21, 2019)

I mostly want to toggle visibility of tracks, fold unfold folders and MIDI editing, i already have enough fader controls.


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## MauroPantin (Jun 21, 2019)

If you are not afraid of working on the technical side of things, Open Stage Control is the one i've found to be the most flexible and customizable for me. It's also free. 

It takes a bit of work to get it to function properly, but I have every single shortcut I normally use for both Reaper and Sibelius, all of the articulations and CC controls for every instrument, grid management, visibility, etc. It has made my workflow a breeze.


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## AdamKmusic (Jun 21, 2019)

Imo get a cheap iPad & get metagrid, there's a big new update due out in August with more features!


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## utopia (Jun 21, 2019)

mc_deli said:


> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/metagrid-for-ios-updated-with-le-commands.58820/page-27
> Search first, speculate later


Not sure if this was meant to sound harsh or not. I don’t feel like search the whole forum every time I state an opinion. I specifically stated I wasn’t sure about this. My opinion came from emailing Przemek several times back and forth. Then he suddenly went radio silent. Plus the fact that the promised update wasn’t delivered. I’m glad to be proven wrong as I use metagrid every day and love it.


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## Øivind (Jun 21, 2019)

+1 for Elgato Stream deck

Story time about my trials with Android and Metagrid in the spoilers:



Spoiler



Not sure how it is now, but earlier Metagrid was using Lemur, and Lemur templates works on both iOS and Android, no difference in file format, at least there wasn't any before. There might be now, i don't know. It's mostly finding an Android tablet that has the correct screen ratio that is a pain. As Metagrid was made for iPad screen ratios and resizing is a big no-no. The Nexus 9 (which i used) had the same ratio as iPad 4s and Airs and that worked great with Metagrid 1.2 to 1.5. Awesome tablet, super cheap. There was some issues like scrollbars because of no full screen mode on android version of Lemur, "screen always on" was not implemented in Lemur and some letter issues, but i contacted the developer of Lemur and he fixed those issues that where Android specific pretty quickly. After that, everything worked great.



But it wasn't for me. So after a lot of searching, Elgato Stream Deck to the rescue. Which is right up my alley. I even use it to enable/disable VEpro instuments with some help from Bome midi translator pro.

Here is how i have set up the stream deck with the things i use the most in Cubendo.


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## robgb (Jun 21, 2019)

You can easily create your own metagrid with TouchOSC on any tablet.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Jun 23, 2019)

robgb said:


> You can easily create your own metagrid with TouchOSC on any tablet.


Define easily  
Because I just could not get to grips with TouchOSC...


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Jun 23, 2019)

oivind_rosvold said:


> The Nexus 9 (which i used) had the same ratio as iPad 4s and Airs and that worked great with Metagrid 1.2 to 1.5.


How come you were running 1.5? You mean the Lemur version...

Because the iPad version is still on 1.4.6, rather mine is anyway :/


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Jun 23, 2019)

MrLinssi said:


> Now let me add to this: Lemur+Composer Tools Pro.


Does this mean that Composer Tools Pro can also be run on an Android tablet? Since Lemur is Android and iOS? I currently have Lemur on my iPad 5th Gen, but trying to leave Apple behind now as the screens are just so small and so expensive for anything remotely bigger :/


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## J-M (Jun 23, 2019)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> Does this mean that Composer Tools Pro can also be run on an Android tablet? Since Lemur is Android and iOS? I currently have Lemur on my iPad 5th Gen, but trying to leave Apple behind now as the screens are just so small and so expensive for anything remotely bigger :/



Indeed, I'm running it on my Samsung tablet, so far I've had a solid experience!


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## Vin (Jun 23, 2019)

InLight-Tone said:


> An iPad is totally worth it for Metagrid. I bought one and am glad I did. You're right Lemur is much more complicated. Out of the box Metagrid is pretty easy to customize as well...



Agreed completely and even older models such as iPad Air 1st gen work flawlessly with Metagrid.


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## greggybud (Jun 23, 2019)

Vin said:


> Agreed completely and even older models such as iPad Air 1st gen work flawlessly with Metagrid.


I'm on iPad 4 and works great. I didn't know Metagrid could go back as far as 1st generation. Since that is the case, then the answer for the OP would be just buy a used one? Even a used 4th is quite cheap these days.

And IMO, buying one is worth it just to run the $14 Metagrid.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 23, 2019)

so what are all the options now in 2019 for tablet remote control? Metagrid, Lemur, Composer tools, what else? What are the pros and cons of each one?


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## 24dBFS (Jun 23, 2019)

If you are considering a touch monitor instead of iPad please check the SHERLOCK and WATSON VST plugins that are made for controlling Cubase / Nuendo.
https://14bitmidi.com/SHERLOCK-VST.png


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## fustrun (Jun 23, 2019)

Thank you for all the replies guys, but i was actually referring to device recommendations more than software ones, i want a rather big 13" /12.9" solution whether it's a tablet or a touch screen .. i just think it's absurd to buy an iPad for such a price for just a few buttons on a screen.

I do not like the idea of the streamdeck as it looks like it's not very sturdy and might move when i tap the buttons on it + i rather like the customization of touch screens ..

So what devices are you guys using except iPads?


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## Øivind (Jun 23, 2019)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> How come you were running 1.5? You mean the Lemur version...
> 
> Because the iPad version is still on 1.4.6, rather mine is anyway :/




Things seems to have changed a lot since "back in the day". Artsunmuted Metagrid version 1.3, 1.4 and finally 1.5 (which included support for Studio One v3) for Lemur came out in 2015.

But now, after doing some searching, i see that Metagrid has become a native iOS app instead of a Lemur template. Seems like they changed names and everything. I feel old. I will just take my out of time comments, my walker and slowly approach the next promising topic!


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## 24dBFS (Jun 23, 2019)

If you don't want or need to become a programmer first to be able to assign some commands to your buttons check this solution that already uses ALL of the built-in Cubase/Nuendo commands PLUS hundreds extra ones added already by the developer. 







http://www.14bitmidi.com/SHERLOCK-WATSON commands as of June 1st 2019.htm

You can use it with any touch screen available out there BUT even without the touch screen you can use your mouse to select what you need.

There is a fully functional FREE DEMO available on the website, Manual, Installation steps etc.
Really worth checking!

https://14bitmidi.com/


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## fustrun (Jun 23, 2019)

Still need to find a device .. software is less of an issue. (see my previous post)


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## 24dBFS (Jun 23, 2019)

fustrun said:


> Still need to find a device .. software is less of an issue. (see my previous post)



Any touch screen out there might be your device.
They are mostly 1920x1080 res. and different sizes from 11" to 42". My suggestion is always something at least 21" since for anything smaller you will need glasses to read text comfortably. 
Since you are on Windows you don't need any extra drivers to use touch screen with your system. 10-point multi-touch is available natively since Windows 7. Apple users aren't that lucky. 
This is all you need as of hardware.
Cheers!


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## fustrun (Jun 23, 2019)

Could not find any Youtube videos showing this in action.


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## Pablocrespo (Jun 24, 2019)

I use two 23inch old screens with a capacitive touch overlay and Dtouch for cubase.

It can even record mouse action to add to macros which opens a lots of posibilities. It has multiplied my workflow speed a lot.


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## fustrun (Jun 27, 2019)

Well i decided to go for the a 24" dell touch monitor and bought sherlock ... the UI is a little messy and takes a little while to understand but i guess after you learn it it's a very powerful tool.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Jun 27, 2019)

fustrun said:


> Well i decided to go for the a 24" dell touch monitor and bought sherlock ... the UI is a little messy and takes a little while to understand but i guess after you learn it it's a very powerful tool.


Let me know how you fair with this, because I am also considering it


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## fustrun (Jun 27, 2019)

Well one thing is for sure .. it looks better than an iPad ...


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Jun 28, 2019)

Al


fustrun said:


> Well one thing is for sure .. it looks better than an iPad ...


Yeah, I have two Dell U2515H displays and they are really nice. So a 2418HT would go quite nicely in my setup 

My only head scratching exercise is figuring out how to make space for a KK49 MKI and a 24” touchscreen, and a mouse and keyboard on the same desk.


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## jonvog (Oct 17, 2019)

fustrun said:


> Well one thing is for sure .. it looks better than an iPad ...


It's been a while... how are you getting along? I want to boost my workflow and am considering buying the ipad 2018 + metagrid. But this one looks promising too...


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## fustrun (Oct 17, 2019)

jonvog said:


> It's been a while... how are you getting along? I want to boost my workflow and am considering buying the ipad 2018 + metagrid. But this one looks promising too...


Could not recommend this more .. a vital tool for my workflow process .. actually planning on making a video about it soon on my youtube channel.


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## jonvog (Oct 17, 2019)

fustrun said:


> Could not recommend this more .. a vital tool for my workflow process .. actually planning on making a video about it soon on my youtube channel.


oh please!


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## jonvog (Oct 17, 2019)

24dBFS said:


> If you don't want or need to become a programmer first to be able to assign some commands to your buttons check this solution that already uses ALL of the built-in Cubase/Nuendo commands PLUS hundreds extra ones added already by the developer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and: as far as I can tell, it is not possible, but is there any chance we have the possibility of using this with other software as well (particularly with Dorico)? If not, is this planned? It looks very promising, but I would like to have a solution which serves me in Dorico as well. One of the reasons I am still considering Metagrid and haven't bought into Sherlock/Watson so far.


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## SuperD (Apr 12, 2020)

jonvog said:


> and: as far as I can tell, it is not possible, but is there any chance we have the possibility of using this with other software as well (particularly with Dorico)? If not, is this planned? It looks very promising, but I would like to have a solution which serves me in Dorico as well. One of the reasons I am still considering Metagrid and haven't bought into Sherlock/Watson so far.


Any update on this? I'm looking for solutions on the matter. Curious how you made out over the past year.


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## 24dBFS (Apr 12, 2020)

SuperD said:


> Any update on this? I'm looking for solutions on the matter. Curious how you made out over the past year.


Actually yes, the sales for Sherlock/Watson are great but more and more people are asking us for something like the above but without the close Cubase/Nuendo integration and something more universal. We are also getting a valuable feedback from existing users and see already what is the trend among users, what functions are very welcome and what are rarely used and kinda overkill.
Especially after NAMM I have talked to users that use either more DAWs than only Cubase/Nuendo or use something else (Logic, Studio 1, DP, PT, Ableton, Dorico etc.). 
For now I still can't tell you what will be the name of the new product (shhhhh) but the development is going strong since March and according to plan the first Alpha testers will get it in May. If all runs smoothly Beta and final version will follow.
It will be even simpler in setup and use. It will be DAW or App agnostic meaning the user will use it with whatever program that is responding to incoming midi data and can host VST or AU plugins.
This is also the main reason for still missing tutorials for Sherlock/Watson/Morpheus but that will change in the next few weeks I hope (Mea Culpa!).
That will be it for now. As soon as I can tell/show more - I will. 
Cheers!
Karol Obara - 14bitMIDI


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## SuperD (Apr 12, 2020)

Ok, thanks Karol. Will watch for updates. (I'm a Logic user)


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## Iswhatitis (Apr 12, 2020)

fustrun said:


> Hey all!
> 
> I really want to improve my workflow to save time and i saw some videos about Metagrid from Jason Graves and i have to say it is pretty brilliant however i do not have an iPad and as i understand Metagrid is currently only available for apple's iPad.
> 
> The thing that struck me the most was the amazing ability to program macros and activate them by tapping the screen .. especially logical editor, this is the main reason i


I got a cheap iPad just to use Metagrid and I’m really happy I did.


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## JHughesMusic (May 19, 2020)

MauroPantin said:


> If you are not afraid of working on the technical side of things, Open Stage Control is the one i've found to be the most flexible and customizable for me. It's also free.
> 
> It takes a bit of work to get it to function properly, but I have every single shortcut I normally use for both Reaper and Sibelius, all of the articulations and CC controls for every instrument, grid management, visibility, etc. It has made my workflow a breeze.



Hey Mauro! 

I've been working with Open Stage Control for a little bit too - really handy software (albeit perhaps confusing if you're new to programming like I am haha)!

I've also been curious about implementing articulations for each instrument into my template for my DAW, and I was wondering if you'd be willing to explain your thought process behind that or maybe recommend some places for me to learn more? And with Sibelius, I'm also super curious how you were able to send messages there. Since the web client only shoots out osc messages, which are then translated to midi messages, how've you been able to control Sibelius? Is there another protocol you're using to translate those midi messages into key commands, or am I missing something else entirely? 

I'm happy you've got your own killer setup! Gotta love having a simplified workflow


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## MauroPantin (May 19, 2020)

JHughesMusic said:


> Hey Mauro!
> 
> I've been working with Open Stage Control for a little bit too - really handy software (albeit perhaps confusing if you're new to programming like I am haha)!
> 
> ...



Hi J! Absolutely. Long post ahead, probably.

First of all, my DAW of choice is Reaper. This alone gives me a big advantage because of its incredible capabilities for customization and scripting. What I am doing is combining OSC with Reaper, Reaticulate and the Reaper API. In Reaper, I can assign any OSC output the same way you assign a keyboard shortcut (in the actions editor). I have created custom LUA scripts, one for each articulation I have in every library (among other things). This is all done using the Reaper API. The code for each script looks like this:


```
reaper.SetExtState("reaticulate", "command", "activate_articulation=1,58", false)
```

Where this particular one sends the message to activate the Col Legno articulation (number 58 on the UACC program list) on the selected track. It doesn't really have to be Col Legno, it activates any articulation you've assigned to slot number 58, I just like to keep everything under a specific standard and Spitfire's UACC was already there so I took it and adapted it slightly to my workflow. The only thing that changes from script to script is that number. 

I then assign a button on my OSC template as a shortcut to each script. And presto! Every time I hit the button, the script calls Reaticulate, which in turn changes the output to whatever parameter I have set for that particular articulation in that particular library. All libraries have different Reaticulate outputs depending on how their internal switching works, but every single one of them that has Col Legno as an articulation has it assigned as bank 58 in the Reaticulate preset file (aka Reabank), so it works no matter where on the template I am using it, it is library agnostic.

With Sibelius (and other software that does not support control through MIDI messages) I am using a couple of other programs. The setup is like this: 

At all times my workstation is running OSC going into loopMIDI (which is a virtual MIDI cable). This cable goes into Bome's Midi Translator Classic. From there I can assign custom keyboard shortcuts to just about any MIDI command, note, etc. So I have a lot of Sibelius keyboard shortcuts mapped there, as well as some plugins. 

I also control other programs with it using the same functionality. I call macros and other things, like the "Play/Stop" command from "Transcribe!", some AutoHotKey scripts, etc. 

Every single thing I do repeatedly, anything that requires me to move the mouse too far or more than 1 mouse click, I have it on the OSC screen. I also have a notepad right next to my keyboard where I write whatever little annoyance I find in my workflow. At the end of each week, I take a couple of hours off and figure out ways to get shortcuts that I can then map to OSC. It's been growing steadily for about two years now.

Let me know if that helps and/or if you need any more details!


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## mediterrano (Dec 11, 2021)

I use Cubase 11 Pro, several iPads, incl. big and small iPad Pros and have bought the following apps:

ZenDaw
MetaGrid
Cubase IC Pro
Lemur+Composer Tools Pro

In your opinion, what would be the best separation of duties between these apps?
Objectives being:
a) to cover as much territory as possible
b) to avoid more than one app covering the same functions & features
c) fastest possible workflow


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