# Music Thief! Check to see if you were targeted.



## Daniel James

Music Thief Alert! just been pointed to this 'composers' profile where I found many of my tracks being sold by him as his own. He has over a thousand for sale. If you post your music on Soundcloud I reccomend you check it out and see if he is using any of yours. What a cunt! so fucking shameless.

http://bit.ly/13mE6VH

-DJ


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## dcoscina

I found a website selling some of my tracks that I hadn't recalled posting at. Thieves everywhere I tell ya!


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## germancomponist

This is going on and on for some years now. I hate it, but how can you stop this? They record the music from Soundcloud and all othere places via a recorder and sell it as their own..... .


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## ghostnote

Sad, spotted a few demo tracks by 8dio and ProjectSam. Here's one by Vivien Chebbah:
http://www.pond5.com/stock-music/246966 ... ailer.html


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## Synesthesia

Wow... 2809 downloads, average price $35.. 

Nearly a hundred grand.. How is that money ever going to find its way back to the rightful composers?


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## Colin O'Malley

I had one of mine stolen by Alex Khaskin on that pond 5 as well. He stole a published and copywritten track. I'm not letting it go. He's in Canada and in full reach of the US legal system. It is disgusting to me.

Colin


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## Inductance

Synesthesia @ Mon Jul 15 said:


> Wow... 2809 downloads, average price $35...



Honestly, I just felt sick to my stomach.


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## Daniel James

I found 11 of mine (there may have been more that I missed) I am going to do everything I can to get what I can.

-DJ


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## Daniel James

BTW Colin did you manage to get a video/screenshot before it was removed? Could help with the legal action!

-DJ


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## Daniel James

Email received from the account holder:



> Hello Daniel
> 
> I'm shocked to find out that your music was sold under my name on Pond 5 ! This is most definitely a mistake . Please except my apologies . I'm composer as you're . You can check my profile on IMDB . In the past year i got very busy with scoring TV and Films . So , i asked my son to do uploads on my behalf . My guess is that he uploaded not just my music but some of the samples that i downloaded from Hybro website . I'm always in search of new cool VST's . SO ,once in a while i listen demos just to get the idea if that particular VST is worth while to have in a collection . I assume that my son without any knowledge uploaded my new tracks with demos from this website .
> 
> As you can tell , i have more then 1200 tracks on Pond 5 . So , i'm in no need to steal anybodies music . I understand your frustration . As soon as i got your email i went to Pond 5 and went thoroughly through every track . I know my music by heart . So far i found over 20 tracks that my son uploaded wrongly . All of them deleted .....I have a severe deadline right now but i can continue go through all of the tracks to take out any tracks that are not mine
> 
> I know that this is very wrong , but i will do everything to make sure that this mistake will be fixed within today and tomorrow
> 
> Please again except my apologize and if you feel to talk to me please send your phone number so that i could be more detailed and can express my apologize



Its plauseable to a degree....up until the part where some of the cues are peoples tracks with parts laid over them hmmm.

As money has changed hands....whats the outlook on this.

-DJ


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## Greg

Check his REVOSTOCK account too:

http://www.revostock.com/SearchResult.html?&CatType=producers&ID=23043 (http://www.revostock.com/SearchResult.h ... s&amp;ID=23043)


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## RasmusFors

Does it happen to be this guy ? https://twitter.com/slivochnii/


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## wanmingyan

It's either he was hacking or he was hacked...

I guess the best way to protect one's music is to only post a preview/demo clip.

WMY :?


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## Greg

FYI Pond5 takes at least a 50% cut too so I'd talk to your lawyer about going after them as well. You are certainly entitled to every dime that they made off of those licenses, and then some.


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## IFM

I see the account has been disabled.


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## germancomponist

Daniel James @ Mon Jul 15 said:


> Email received from the account holder:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello Daniel
> 
> I'm shocked to find out that your music was sold under my name on Pond 5 ! This is most definitely a mistake . Please except my apologies . I'm composer as you're . You can check my profile on IMDB . In the past year i got very busy with scoring TV and Films . So , i asked my son to do uploads on my behalf . My guess is that he uploaded not just my music but some of the samples that i downloaded from Hybro website . I'm always in search of new cool VST's . SO ,once in a while i listen demos just to get the idea if that particular VST is worth while to have in a collection . I assume that my son without any knowledge uploaded my new tracks with demos from this website .
> 
> As you can tell , i have more then 1200 tracks on Pond 5 . So , i'm in no need to steal anybodies music . I understand your frustration . As soon as i got your email i went to Pond 5 and went thoroughly through every track . I know my music by heart . So far i found over 20 tracks that my son uploaded wrongly . All of them deleted .....I have a severe deadline right now but i can continue go through all of the tracks to take out any tracks that are not mine
> 
> I know that this is very wrong , but i will do everything to make sure that this mistake will be fixed within today and tomorrow
> 
> Please again except my apologize and if you feel to talk to me please send your phone number so that i could be more detailed and can express my apologize
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its plauseable to a degree....up until the part where some of the cues are peoples tracks with parts laid over them hmmm.
> 
> As money has changed hands....whats the outlook on this.
> 
> -DJ
Click to expand...


What a sweet story. I think I can't believe it.


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## ghostnote

Here's another stolen track, the same guy but another musiclibrary:
http://www.musicloops.com/music_downloa ... ler-21496/

Original by Troels Folmann:
https://soundcloud.com/8dawn/hybrid-rhy ... mann-reels


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## wanmingyan

So this kinda teaches us that it is never safe to put up our music online? Is there a way to minimize such problems? After all, we need to showcase our talents online as well...

WMY


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## Resoded

If the basstard gets paid online for this, wouldn't that mean that it's very easy to track down? Account numbers or paypal linked to account numbers/credit cards. Removing songs isn't enough, I'd say this needs to be reported to proper authorities.


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## musicformedia

Michael Chrostek @ Tue Jul 16 said:


> Here's another stolen track, the same guy but another musiclibrary:
> http://www.musicloops.com/music_downloa ... ler-21496/
> 
> Original by Troels Folmann:
> https://soundcloud.com/8dawn/hybrid-rhy ... mann-reels



Another one of his accounts here:

http://www.premiumbeat.com/artists/alex-khaskin

Anyone recognise any of those tracks?


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## Cruciform

The guy who runs Music Loops is straight up. Anybody reported this to him yet? He'd be horrified.


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## musicformedia

Cruciform @ Tue Jul 16 said:


> The guy who runs Music Loops is straight up. Anybody reported this to him yet? He'd be horrified.



Mailed him now.


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## germancomponist

I would say this is a case for the prosecution... .


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## HugoCarpinteiro

he has alot more on audiosparx

This guy is in almost every stockmarket


Colin music

http://www.audiosparx.com/sa/summary/pl ... iid.597303


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## musicformedia

HugoCarpinteiro @ Tue Jul 16 said:


> he has alot more on audiosparx
> 
> This guy is in almost every stockmarket
> 
> 
> Colin music
> 
> http://www.audiosparx.com/sa/summary/pl ... iid.597303



Do you have a link to which one of Colin's tracks that is? I'll report him to Audiosparx


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## HugoCarpinteiro

musicformedia @ Tue Jul 16 said:


> HugoCarpinteiro @ Tue Jul 16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> he has alot more on audiosparx
> 
> This guy is in almost every stockmarket
> 
> 
> Colin music
> 
> http://www.audiosparx.com/sa/summary/pl ... iid.597303
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a link to which one of Colin's tracks that is? I'll report him to Audiosparx
Click to expand...


8dio Demos
https://soundcloud.com/8dawn/adagio-flo ... in-omalley


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## musicformedia

HugoCarpinteiro @ Tue Jul 16 said:


> musicformedia @ Tue Jul 16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HugoCarpinteiro @ Tue Jul 16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> he has alot more on audiosparx
> 
> This guy is in almost every stockmarket
> 
> 
> Colin music
> 
> http://www.audiosparx.com/sa/summary/pl ... iid.597303
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a link to which one of Colin's tracks that is? I'll report him to Audiosparx
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 8dio Demos
> https://soundcloud.com/8dawn/adagio-flo ... in-omalley
Click to expand...


Thanks - emailed audiosparx now. So far, I've found him on:

Neosounds, Premiumbeat, Music Loops, Revostock, Pond5, Shockwave Sound, Music Dealers, Sound Dogs, The Music Case, Media Music Now, Music 2 License, Fresh Music, Yooka Music, Sound Vault. He's really gotten himself out there!


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## musicformedia

Told Audiosparx and they said:

"We just found out about this situation this morning, apparently Alex’s son accidentally uploaded a bunch of tracks that he thought were his father’s songs. We are in the process of deleting them this morning."

Seems he's using the same excuse - seems strange his son was able to "accidentally" upload so many tracks to so many different music libraries....

From the sounds of it, it doesn't seem like they'll remove him entirely, just the offending tracks...


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## Ned Bouhalassa

Did his son also add the layers on top of existing music?


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## HugoCarpinteiro

That's bullshit.
Is son? So why did he change track names? I think that he even add layers of strings to some of Dirk Ehlert tracks
What it seems is that audiosparx, pond5 etc won alot of money with this guy and a lot of people bought this tracks that can't legally use! It seems they are ignoring all of this. he made around 100k on pond5, half goes to pond5. i can't imagine the total he won on all sites.


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## wanmingyan

We should have a blacklist of music pirates on this forum...Anyone against it?

WMY


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## Reegs

Even if the upload was "accidental," I assume that the actual composer holding the rights would be entitled to any proceeds resulting from the sale of said uploads and he would have to give it his "accidental" proceeds back, no? :roll:


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## reddognoyz

Check out Tunesat, It may be able to help you find where your tracks were used if you think you've been hijacked. It may give you the end users who bought your music, and a better opportunity to recoup, or at least an opportunity to shut down the f'er's.

http://www.tunesat.com/

there is a "try it free" thing there that may be enough to see where your stolen tracks were used.. I know these guys, they are straight up. Scott Shreer is a composer who started this company to track his compositions, and it works quite well. Strongest coverage is in the US market but there is international coverage as well.


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## reddognoyz

Daniel James @ Mon Jul 15 said:


> Music Thief Alert! just been pointed to this 'composers' profile where I found many of my tracks being sold by him as his own. He has over a thousand for sale. If you post your music on Soundcloud I reccomend you check it out and see if he is using any of yours. What a cunt! so fucking shameless.
> 
> http://bit.ly/13mE6VH
> 
> -DJ




already off of that site


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## Inductance

The "I blame my son" explanation sounds like a load of BS.

I suppose it's possible that someone stole Mr. Khaskin's identity and used it to set up all these accounts on all these libraries (to fool potential customers into thinking that the music they're paying for comes from a legit composer). 

Alex Khaskin has a website with a lot of audio samples. Has anyone spotted any stolen music among these?

http://www.alexkhaskin.com/audio.html


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## germancomponist

Why do we now have 2 threads on this?

As I said earlier, Daniel: This is a case for the prosecution!


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## Dirk Ehlert

My fault, please let's leave the other thread out to avoid further confusion and go ahead with this one.

He contacted me on FB with the same excuse, his son uploaded these tracks etc. 

I answered him, that I'd be curious to hear how he then "accidently" edited my cue (extended it) put layers on top (add. piano and strings - my original track was a demo for amplesound, so pretty much guitar based) and had the same track in 4! different versions on Pond5 (found it on musicloops as well) 

He asked me to send him a link to my track and the one that I captured from Pond 5 (I downloaded all the preview files) which I did. Since then I haven't heard back of him.


. Every track of mine that I have found in his portfolios are meanwhile deleted / not available anymore.

Big heads up to Pond5 who seem to deal with this professionally, they already got back to me plus sending an offer for compensation in a bit. Looks like I will at least be gettin the license money for the tracks. I'll keep you posted how this develops.


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## KMuzzey

He also has a Getty Music/Pump Audio account:

http://www.gettyimages.com/Music/Search?msm.SearchTerms=salieri+music+inc&msm.SearchCollectionFilter=1&msm.SearchCollectionFilter=2 (http://www.gettyimages.com/Music/Search ... onFilter=2)

which means that a lot of this stuff has probably turned up on TV and accrued performance royalties as well.

Kerry


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## germancomponist

So it seems not to be the best way, when composers share their music via Soundcloud e.t.c..., what I always said in the past! I was always ridiculed for this. ... .


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## Dirk Ehlert

I just can't help myself but I need to share the convo I had with Alex on FB.

See for yourself.

Conversation started today

5:08pm
Alex Khaskin
Hi Josh _(Josh was the guy who initially started the whole thing with his discovery, I would have expected my name in there instead of Josh's...)_
I just found your post on Audiojungle . My name is Alex Khaskin and i'm a composer who became "celebrity " over night . I'm writing to you cause i've been screwed for no fault on my site...yes , the music was uploaded , but no matter how idiotic it sounds by my son . I'm a very busy composer ...so , i delegate all the part time business to my son who is a student and has time to help me out . Tracks that he accidentally uploaded were from one of the VST selling companies which i downloaded long time ago in order to listen quality of the VST instruments . I had no intention selling music of any composers cause i have on my own 1200+ tracks ....accident happened ...now i have to apologies to every one involved ...please abort the info that you posted cause i believe that it doesn't do justice
Thank you, Alex Khaskin

5:15pm
Dirk Ehlert
Well then I'm pretty curious for your explanation why my track "new horizons" was on your pages for sale in an edited form (extended) with additional keyboard and string layers. Did that happen by accident as well?
Excuse me but I'm PRETTY pissed off
Btw, I'm Dirk, Josh is the guy that initially made us aware of that.

5:47pm
Alex Khaskin
Can you please send me this track so that i can listen to it ?

5:49pm
Dirk Ehlert
the pond5 preview is attached and here's my original - https://soundcloud.com/de-tune/new-hori ... esound-all

download
025049483-business-corporate-inspiration.mp3
Today

10:28pm
Dirk Ehlert
Well, not that I expected an answer to that question, but not hearing back from you about this speaks volumes.

11:17pm
Alex Khaskin
I did answer to you in my message right on your Facebook page....what i said is that when i was downloading your music there was more then one version...so , i didnt add anything on my own ....and my son uploaded it as the way it was in the folder unintentionaly

11:30pm
Dirk Ehlert
Please Mr., c'mon, first, I don't know what comment you mean, I don't see anything on my page. But apart from that, I just SENT you an evidence. I never did any other version than the one on soundcloud. Your Pond5 preview file is edited with layers on top, recut and extended. Are you seriously telling me I don't know what music I have on my soundcloud? This track was a demo for a guitar library, there has never been an alternate version. So what the hell are you tellin me?
So lets put it on the table, you've sold that track in different versions numerously on Pond5 (namely 14 times, took screenshots of the sales numbers) each 39,99 (and I don't give a thing about any splitting Pond5 does) so that's roundabout 560 $. Plus you had that track on musicloops.com as well. Assuming the same amount of sales (no public data given there) and assuming you had that track on other sites as well that easily adds up to an estimated 3k or 4k dollars. Money that you made, based on MY work. And now you're lying straight into my face "there was more then one version..." . I expect a solid offer of compromise within 24 hours, otherwise I give this whole thing straight to my lawyer. Kind regards Dirk Ehlert


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## reeltracks

If you plan to sue him, which I hope you do, make sure you register your music that he stole with the Library of Congress/U.S. Copyright Office. While your copyright exists regardless of an official registration, I believe it's a prerequisite for litigation....at least in the U.S. Also, does anyone know of any statute of limitations in regards to copyright infringements? I will now go through all the tracks and hope that I won't find any of my music.

Good luck to all of us!


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## bobulusbillman

I'd love to hear his excuse for this one:

http://www.gettyimages.com/music/downlo ... 1600-ver-1

That solo cello is so clearly from the Pirates 1 ost 'Fog Bound'. And he's put quite a bit of effort into trying to dress that one up.


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## nikolas

bobulusbillman @ Tue Jul 16 said:


> I'd love to hear his excuse for this one:
> 
> http://www.gettyimages.com/music/downlo ... 1600-ver-1
> 
> That solo cello is so clearly from the Pirates 1 ost 'Fog Bound'. And he's put quite a bit of effort into trying to dress that one up.


I don't know if us "mere humans" have much to go against him (and I'm not sure on how to check if MY music is in there), but at the same time I do think that Hans must have the means to kick this guy's arse! And I sure hope that this will happen one way or another!


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## Anze Rozman

Just have to say, that this is really really just discusting. And he has the nerv to call himself a composer? Just brings me chills! Hope you guys get at least some contrabution! 

I really wish you best of luck! Take the basterd down!


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## Ciaran Birch

That's absolutely mad! Fair play for at least catching him out. I'm still gobsmacked at the amount of tracks he could have stolen. Has anyone contacted Getty?


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## guydoingmusic

I called Audiosparx and was in the process of informing them of everything going on, and the guy I spoke with assured me his account has been deactivated and said "there is definitely something shady going on, and we have no tolerance for that".


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## passenger57

This is of course horrendous but honestly, I'm going to be a little disappointed if my tracks were not deemed worthy enough to be stolen. LOL!


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## gamalataki

If you digitize your music and make it available, it will be stolen.

This guy is a really unaccomplished thief. There are people in this industry who are quite accomplished at stealing, so good in fact that there really isn't much you can do even if you catch them.

It went like this for me and at least one other composer I know personally.

We wrote tracks for a music library and had a seemingly good relationship with the owner. I know most of the music mixers on the dub stages in LA and have even given a few of them some demos to get mix feedback.

Out of the blue one day, I get a congratulations from one of the mixers on getting one of my tracks in a show. Time goes by and I hear nothing from the library owner about it. Usually they are calling me as soon as one of my tracks gets in something, bragging about how hard they're working for me, but not this time.

I get a video of the show and go through it, listening for something familiar, but I don't hear anything. I wasn't listening close enough, for the second run through, under a bar scene with lots of dialog and sound fx, there it was, barely!

I pull the cue sheets for the show and guess who's name is on the cue sheet for my track?
Not mine.

After confronting the owner of the library, with the evidence, they apologize and tell me that was the week that they were going through a divorce, had a broken arm, their kid was arrested and they were totally out of it. A few days later a bottle of wine shows up with a note promising to fix the cue sheets and compensate me as per our contract. Two months later the cue sheets were still unchanged. I called again and told them that I was a friend of the producer of that show (we had worked together before) and I was going to tell him that I would have to file a cease and desist order against further airing of the show. The next day they called with proof of the updated cue sheets and a check for the placement and royalties for a few airings.

Here's what I eventually found out. This person, upon learning that his tracks were being used, would either wiggle their way onto the dub stage for playback or request a video of the placements.
If the music was mixed so low even the composer wouldn't recognize it if he were viewing it on NBC, the library owner would put their name on the cue sheets and keep the initial payment for the track.

So even if you catch a thief like this, they apologize and make it right so there's really nothing worth doing legally. Trying to sue someone who can make a convincing argument that they made an honest mistake and made it right is a losing proposition. Clever bastards, thieves.

Of course you have to catch them first. Without watching every show on every channel in every country all the time, there's really no way to find out how prevalent this practice is. 

I suspect that most library owners would not stoop this low, no matter how financially strapped they were, but that's what I thought about this "friend".

I'm fuming again just writing this.

So this guy selling other peoples tracks is an amateur thief, compared to the people who really know how to make money with music. Even if he's cleared a hundred thousand dollars (and probably hasn't payed taxes on it) it's not that much compared to placements in a syndicated show that runs for 20 years in 20 plus countries, multiplied by x number of shows; well no one really knows. Plus the fact that this idiot Khaskin seems to be using music owned by a major studio and adding something to it, puts him in a position to lose everything. If you're going to steal, steal from the naive not the people that can crush you.

How do you know the music you posted on the web hasn't been contracted to a music library and is being aired on a show for some distant network right now?

You don't.


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## kdm

gamalataki @ Tue Jul 16 said:


> How do you know the music you posted on the web hasn't been contracted to a music library and is being aired on a show for some distant network right now?
> 
> You don't.



Quite true. I had some music with an LA-based library a while back, and could swear I heard a vocal tag from one piece at the end of a network series promo a couple of weeks ago. The library is gone, but I wouldn't be surprised if the music is still being used, placed, and credited to someone else. 

So many ways to unintentionally give up secure control over one's work today.


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## Ganvai

bobulusbillman @ 16th July 2013 said:


> I'd love to hear his excuse for this one:
> 
> http://www.gettyimages.com/music/downlo ... 1600-ver-1
> 
> That solo cello is so clearly from the Pirates 1 ost 'Fog Bound'. And he's put quite a bit of effort into trying to dress that one up.



This is great. A strange stringline above and a lot of bad autotune-work and you get your own pirate track. (Oh, wait, it is a pirated track... :mrgreen: )
Does he really make money with that? Good God...


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## studioj

This is just ... wow... did he really think he'd get away with doing it to this extreme?! He and the companies that are representing his work are gonna be sued into 3 lifetimes from now. amazing. And what about the agencies / co's that used this music? Technically they could be guilty of unintentional infringement and have to pony up as well. I wonder what kind of indemnifications places like Pump and Pond5 offer forth when they license music.


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## vlado hudec

Holy shit ! This man had around 1000 stolen tracks at 10+ library music companies for several months, maybe years, he probably earned $100k + ! Kill that man with shovel !


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## Jdiggity1

I tried posting his track "Lousy Thief" for a bit of irony, but the link wouldn't post properly.


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## Ellywu2

I could almost, almost believe that someone had hacked his account or made an account in his name - using his credentials to legitimize the thief.

However, seeing that the actual composer has been contacted and still states his 'son' uploaded these tracks by accident?

.....


*rabblerabblerabble*


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## woodsdenis

studioj @ Wed Jul 17 said:


> This is just ... wow... did he really think he'd get away with doing it to this extreme?! He and the companies that are representing his work are gonna be sued into 3 lifetimes from now. amazing. And what about the agencies / co's that used this music? Technically they could be guilty of unintentional infringement and have to pony up as well. I wonder what kind of indemnifications places like Pump and Pond5 offer forth when they license music.



Normally the agreement with the composers will indemnify them (library) against any legal proceedings and put the onus on the composer , however if HZ gets a hold of them it could be different.


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## vlado hudec

even his personal website http://www.alexkhaskin.com/ is suddenly unavailable, probably his son again? :D


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## MichalCielecki

It was avaiable a few hours ago...


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## audiothing

http://www.networksolutions.com/whois/r ... haskin.com

*<MOD NOTE> Data removed. This is a liability issue for the forum.*

:roll:


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## musicformedia

He's gone from music loops, music case, audiosparx and premiumbeat so far now.


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## Inductance

Anze Rozman @ Tue Jul 16 said:


> Just have to say, that this is really really just discusting. And he has the nerv to call himself a composer?



I know, that was my thought as well. I've honestly tried to put myself in the mindset of one of these people. I KNOW how hard it is to come up with music ideas, so I KNOW that other people put as much work, thought, sweat, and even tears into their work. Some work harder than me. Now, if I were to decide that I can just grab their work, upload it, sell it with my name... Honestly, I don't like the type of person I'd be. At the end of the day, I'd be the one that has to look at myself in the mirror. 

And another thing. I don't have children, but I'm a "favorite uncle" to a nephew that means the world to me. If I were to do something like what this thief is doing, how would I ever look him in the eye again, knowing that he looks up to me like he does? 

I guess to some people, being honest to ONESELF isn't important.


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## David John

Unbelievable. Was he being clever with the Salieri Music Inc.? 

Doesn't the film Amadeus end with the jealous Salieri stealing Mozart's final requiem and publishing it as his own?


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## rgames

Guys - as much as I share your disgust, posting info like the guy's address or other info is a VERY BAD idea.

I suggest the mods take a look at this thread and perhaps do some editing.

rgames


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## kb123

Echoing Richard's comments, if anyone here is intending to take legal action, they should consider what is being posted here. Any lawyer will tell you that rule number 1 is don't say or do anything that might prejudice the outcome


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## 667

looool stealing from HZ / Disney this guy is finished.


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## Ed

germancomponist @ Tue Jul 16 said:


> So it seems not to be the best way, when composers share their music via Soundcloud e.t.c..., what I always said in the past! I was always ridiculed for this. ... .



I dont see how that matters, because music that wasn't available on soundcloud was still stolen. If your music was released in a library then its out there and someone like this guy can take it. Obviously if you never show anyone your music there's no way he can defraud you, but then you cant make any money either yourself!


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## germancomponist

Ed @ Thu Jul 18 said:


> Obviously if you never show anyone your music there's no way he can defraud you, but then you cant make any money either yourself!



There are many "better" ways to show important people your music.... .


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## mikebarry

I encourage you all to purse this man via the law. He is a fool to have done this, and a fool to have done it in Canada. If pursued this will go to federal court in the USA which is quite serious.


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## mgtube

Inductance @ Tue Jul 16 said:


> The "I blame my son" explanation sounds like a load of BS.
> 
> I suppose it's possible that someone stole Mr. Khaskin's identity and used it to set up all these accounts on all these libraries (to fool potential customers into thinking that the music they're paying for comes from a legit composer).
> 
> Alex Khaskin has a website with a lot of audio samples. Has anyone spotted any stolen music among these?
> 
> http://www.alexkhaskin.com/audio.html



The website is down... Seems like he's going off the grid...


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## Synesthesia

Many of the developers here know only too well that sick punch to the gut feeling when you see your work being stolen and resold by others.

I sincerely hope that those composers who have had their work stolen and resold by these royalty free libraries will be compensated by them.

It seems unlikely that anyone was actually listening to this stuff before it was put on the open market, at least thats all I can comprehend bearing in mind one of the tracks is clearly POTC ripped from the CD with a few overdubs.

How anyone in charge of A&R couldn't notice that is beyond me, its one of the most well known soundtracks of the 2000s. (I can't bring myself to use that expression - 'the noughties')


----------



## Midihead

I stumbled upon this thread by accident and must say I am actually shocked (and not much shocks me anymore) about this. I am feeling quite naive right now. I would have never thought someone would have the balls to take someone else's work and call it their own AND profit off it (not referring to ghost writing). Now I'm wondering if any of my material is up for sale and credited to someone else. 

It's really great that this thread was started, and I think we could all do a lot of good for one another if we kept our eyes and ears peeled for violations and followed up here on this thread if we come across something that needs investigating. Seems like a good place, no?


----------



## wanmingyan

We should have a section in this forum specifically dealing with copyrights and music business/law...This issues can't be avoided after all.


----------



## kdm

mikebarry @ Wed Jul 17 said:


> I encourage you all to purse this man via the law. He is a fool to have done this, and a fool to have done it in Canada. If pursued this will go to federal court in the USA which is quite serious.



A good suggestion, and perhaps it is an option. I am not a lawyer, but it seems to me that without evidence of what was listed (website and listings seem to be gone now), I doubt anything could be proven and compensated at this point.

Of course hindsight is 20/20, but it might have been best to not contact the guy or the sites until everyone had a chance to verify, and prove their music was involved. A lot of music can't be proven to have been stolen now.

Still, for those that found your music there, do what you can. But a bit of a reality check - it seems that this kind of library scenario is rampant, and obviously, is an easy venue for theft as these sites require almost nothing in the form of identification to join. I doubt this will be the last case, and likely is just one of hundreds, though most are likely better at hiding what they've stolen.


----------



## woodsdenis

Synesthesia @ Thu Jul 18 said:


> How anyone in charge of A&R couldn't notice that is beyond me, its one of the most well known soundtracks of the 2000s. (I can't bring myself to use that expression - 'the noughties')



Obvious ? To you and me maybe, but unfortunately not to 99% of people who must have heard it over the years. His deception was discovered elsewhere, the POTC track discovery came after he was exposed. DJ spotted a "Phone Booth" track also which only came to light after the event so to speak. I am guessing there are a few of these in his catalogue, it would take a film music expert to analyse it.

Film music in general is about atmosphere and emotion, very seldom does it cross over into the public consciousness like Star Wars, Gladiator etc

If there is an upside at all to his rip off of POTC, is that Disney/HZ/Jerry Bruckheimer will have the legal muscle and will to pursue him.

There is probably more of this out there, distasteful and upsetting as it is.


----------



## Mike Marino

Yeah, I came across two POTC rip-offs and PM'd those links to Rctec. He is sending those to his lawyer.


----------



## Rctec

Yes, thank you, Mike...not just my lawyers, who are very, very heavy...but I've already heard back from Disney. That mouse has real teeth! 
H


----------



## Daniel James

Ok guys I just wanted to let you know that I have been speaking to quite a few of the sites that were hosting and they all are pretty much severing ties with the thief. I have had quite a few discussions with a couple about implementing more checks on music they are selling, at the end of the day it will be better for them to check the music coming in than to have to revoke licenses and repay money from clients!

Like someone mentioned, you really get a punch in the gut feeling when you find stuff like this out....and this year after having both my music stolen and my sample library pirated to high heaven, my gut needed a break. The way everyone has come together like this is really quite heart warming  Love you guys haha

Keep up the pressure! 

-DJ


----------



## Resoded

Sad to hear that your library was pirated Daniel.


----------



## madbulk

Policing the music on the way in assumes you know the POTC cue to begin with, which perhaps you should if you run a production library, but you won't know everything. What it really comes down to is more generally minding the store. Guy shows up with 1000 tracks, that's a red flag. You gotta at least investigate it.

A


----------



## Daryl

I think that quite a few producers who have licenced tracks for their programmes will be rather dismayed to learn that they could be sued, even if they can then counter-sue the library, who in turn can counter-sue the alleged composer. In the long run I think that this will probably persuade these producers to licence tracks from more reputable libraries in future. Whether or not this is good for the industry remains to be seen.

D


----------



## SeanM1960

Way to go Daniel! :D


----------



## kdm

madbulk @ Thu Jul 18 said:


> Policing the music on the way in assumes you know the POTC cue to begin with, which perhaps you should if you run a production library, but you won't know everything. What it really comes down to is more generally minding the store. Guy shows up with 1000 tracks, that's a red flag. You gotta at least investigate it.
> 
> A



But how? The library market is based on mass production numbers, not the credibility and value of each individual track - most simply evaluate based on the style and production quality. 

I know a library owner, as I'm sure many of you do - I don't think there is any way they can evaluate every track for validity and originality when some could be developer demos, or even composers violating exclusive agreements with other libraries. That's why most simply put this in their end user agreements, but until now, I wonder if those agreements have been tested in court. Could be a hard lesson for some libraries and end customers having to remix/recut released ads, promos, shows, films, etc. 

There is simply too much material out there (millions of tracks), and as such, at least this sector of the library market is creating its' own problem. You simply can't police a mass production market with hundreds of thousands of contributors, millions of "products", and millions of customers the way a direct hire, or even a direct licensing model can. 

Honestly guys, wasn't this bound to happen with the proliferation of the easy to access, hard to trace content distribution model? This is the Walmart age of music and art, and there is no question in my mind it has hurt the creative content world.


----------



## christianb

Rctec @ Thu Jul 18 said:


> Yes, thank you, Mike...not just my lawyers, who are very, very heavy...but I've already heard back from Disney. That mouse has real teeth!
> H




I just experienced the concept your country has a beautiful word for...
Schadenfreude

go git 'im



christianb


----------



## KMuzzey

It gets better.

Yesterday a post turned up on the SOS forums about "hey have you heard of this brilliant composer named Alex Khaskin" --

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showf ... ost1058139

Come on now. This is getting cartoonish.

kerry


----------



## madbulk

kdm @ Thu Jul 18 said:


> madbulk @ Thu Jul 18 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Policing the music on the way in assumes you know the POTC cue to begin with, which perhaps you should if you run a production library, but you won't know everything. What it really comes down to is more generally minding the store. Guy shows up with 1000 tracks, that's a red flag. You gotta at least investigate it.
> 
> A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But how? The library market is based on mass production numbers, not the credibility and value of each individual track - most simply evaluate based on the style and production quality.
> 
> I know a library owner, as I'm sure many of you do - I don't think there is any way they can evaluate every track for validity and originality when some could be developer demos, or even composers violating exclusive agreements with other libraries.
Click to expand...


I think you just echo'd my point. You can't have a mass production model and watch every track. But if an Alex shows up with a thousand tracks, you should look into that composers entries. Nobody has hundreds of thousands of tracks much less contributors. Very few of your contributors have a thousand tracks. That's manageable and that's where these libs failed, IMO.


----------



## madbulk

KMuzzey @ Thu Jul 18 said:


> It gets better.
> Yesterday a post turned up on the SOS forums about "hey have you heard of this brilliant composer named Alex Khaskin" --
> http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showf ... ost1058139
> Come on now. This is getting cartoonish.
> kerry



LOL. That post has almost gotta be a bit of inside humor.


----------



## kdm

madbulk @ Thu Jul 18 said:


> You can't have a mass production model and watch every track. But if an Alex shows up with a thousand tracks, you should look into that composers entries. Nobody has hundreds of thousands of tracks much less contributors. Very few of your contributors have a thousand tracks. That's manageable and that's where these libs failed, IMO.



But he didn't have thousands of tracks on every site. Some only had a dozen or so. And I know of library composers delivering hundreds of minutes of music a year or more. Just to make a half decent living one has to have around 1000 tracks in libraries now just to beat the search odds. This is the crux of this model, not an obvious red flag.

I think we composers need to rethink the low license fee mass production model. It is not only ripe for theft and lawsuits impacting end clients but devaluing music in general at a disturbing rate. Just wait until broadcast disappears and nothing is left but paltry, or non-existent online streaming royalties.


----------



## reddognoyz

I know I'm repeating myself, but if you think you've been pirated TuneSat can help you find where your track have been played. There is a free trial that should give you an indication if your tracks are being used, and by whom and when and where.


----------



## Synesthesia

Hi Stuart,

Does Tunesat work retrospectively?

Thanks,

Paul


----------



## Daryl

kdm @ Thu Jul 18 said:


> I think we composers need to rethink the low license fee mass production model. It is not only ripe for theft and lawsuits impacting end clients but devaluing music in general at a disturbing rate. Just wait until broadcast disappears and nothing is left but paltry, or non-existent online streaming royalties.


Dedric, of course you are right, but it's never going to happen. It can't. When a new young composer comes along, he/she has almost no chance of getting an opportunity to write for one of the big established library companies, so has no other option than to go for one of these Internet low (or no) license fee companies. I have no right to tell these composers that they can't attempt to make a living, even if it means undercutting me.

D


----------



## KMuzzey

I use Tunesat, and it can work retroactively once you start, as long as it's a TV service that they monitor. They monitor almost (if not all) 100% of nets in the US and quite a few EU countries. It's not on-demand retroactively though: I believe it's done quarterly if you need retroactive results. If you want a simple ask, like "the past 2 years in the US retroactively" that's an easy one. If it's a country or network that they only recently started monitoring, they can only go back as far as their start date for monitoring that country or specific network. But once it's there, that data is there to stay.

Kerry


----------



## kriztofo

This is pretty horrific and if this guy was willing to be so blatant about it, there must be others like him yet to be caught. It's a real shame, because a lot users - including folks on this forum - have often requested the ability to download demos in their full fidelity so they can get a truer sense of how things really sound. I completely understand that, but not at the cost of leaving the door open to thieves like this joker. We're locking down all of the demos and limiting them to 128kbps streaming only.


----------



## partnersinrhyme

Alex made a huge mistake, there's no doubt about it. But it was a mistake. 
He did not upload thousands of songs that he did not write, there are probably 20 at the most that his son uploaded by mistake (Alex is lame for putting all the blame on his son but I do believe that is actually what happened). Alex is getting his catalog sorted now, I think.
The copying of the melody of the one track mentioned here is not a good thing. I think Alex might have gone a bit too close with his knock-offs, but they were just that, knock-offs. As far as I know he didn't download the music and then add on top of existing files.
Be that as it may Alex's career seems pretty much f***ed at this point, being the most hated composer on the internet and all.
But one thing I can assure the hysterical masses is that this is not happening en masse. These days if people try to pull a stunt like this it is caught almost immediately by tunestat or youtube contentID and the like. My company has been distributing royalty free music for 17 years and this situation has only happened three times in that time. Out of 100's of thousands of songs placed I would say that's a pretty good track record and not an indication of rampant theft on the internet.
Before everyone jumps to the conclusion that there are thieves everywhere taking your music and making thousands of dollars off of it just take a deep breath and think about how often this situation actually does not occur.
I may be naive but I think the system works pretty well overall.


-Mark


----------



## hector

partnersinrhyme @ Fri Jul 19 said:


> (Alex is lame for putting all the blame on his son but I do believe that is actually what happened). Alex is getting his catalog sorted now, I think.


So his son did decided to rename all these tracks to random new names?

His son decides to add extra string and brass parts on top of these demos?

'My son accidentally uploaded demos I had downloaded' is frankly not very good and not too very likely... Alex have to give his son the music.. Why he store downloaded demos in the same place as master renders to place online?? Why they have new names? Why they have extra pieces added or different cuts?? And even if this is accidental, he should now be immediately paying the composers the compensation they earn.

Also I dont think these loop sites do enough, to go 'hey look through and see any of yours? We will remove' is not good enough. With what happened all should be taken down and Alex now has to prove which ones are his and give back money for those which are not and it goes to the RIGHT copyright owners...



partnersinrhyme @ Fri Jul 19 said:


> As far as I know he didn't download the music and then add on top of existing files.


If you bother to read the thread when sign up just to defend, you see he _did_ do exactly this with demos... read here:


de_signs @ Tue Jul 16 said:


> I'd be curious to hear how he then "accidently" edited my cue (extended it) put layers on top (add. piano and strings - my original track was a demo for amplesound, so pretty much guitar based) and had the same track in 4! different versions on Pond5 (found it on musicloops as well)





bobulusbillman @ Tue Jul 16 said:


> That solo cello is so clearly from the Pirates 1 ost 'Fog Bound'. And he's put quite a bit of effort into trying to dress that one up.



I agree I think a lot of overreaction here (even though it is a big issue, does not justify posting addresses and phones, and as pointed out this happen all the time outside of music and it is justified and not made a big deal), but I don't think you can justify what Alex did like this..


----------



## partnersinrhyme

Believe me, Alex has caused me more problems than he has caused you.
My post is not a defense at all (yes, I of course read the entire thread). It is simply a rational side to the argument that your time is probably better spent writing a new cue than going through thousands of songs in music libraries to see if you've been ripped off.


----------



## Synesthesia

partnersinrhyme @ Fri Jul 19 said:


> your time is probably better spent writing a new cue than going through thousands of songs in music libraries to see if you've been ripped off.



Wow. just... wow.

Thats an incredible attitude to take.

This is why I would never place my stuff in a royalty free library, if you all think like this.

Such disrespect for your composers is incredible.


----------



## musicsup

Very interesting. Partnersinrhyme has been a member for 1 day! Also: "My company has been distributing royalty free music for 17 years and this situation has only happened three times in that time." I'd very much like to know the name of this company but the info is (un)surprisingly absent from the post and his profile.


----------



## hector

partnersinrhyme @ Fri Jul 19 said:


> Believe me, Alex has caused me more problems than he has caused you.


I did not realise you run a music royalty free site involved in this... now I see why you sign up and post to protect yourself. You do not seem bothered by this massive stealing, perhaps that is because your company benefit from it?... Is Alex (claimed) music still available on any site you run after all this?



partnersinrhyme @ Fri Jul 19 said:


> My post is not a defense at all (yes, I of course read the entire thread).


If you read the whole thread, why did you say:



partnersinrhyme @ Fri Jul 19 said:


> As far as I know he didn't download the music and then add on top of existing files.


When this clearly NOT true and mentioned two times alone in this one?

Do you believe Alex son did this on an accident? If so, how do you explain to yourself to justify the excuse:

1) Why did his son rename to make up new names for the demo uploads?
2) Why did some of the uploads have extras (such as de_signs) or different cuts?



musicsup @ Fri Jul 19 said:


> Very interesting. Partnersinrhyme has been a member for 1 day! Also: "My company has been distributing royalty free music for 17 years and this situation has only happened three times in that time." I'd very much like to know the name of this company but the info is (un)surprisingly absent from the post and his profile.


I would be guessing he is the owner of http://www.partnersinrhyme.com/ (if you search on his site you find many of Alex music though it is from another site, Musicloops)


----------



## partnersinrhyme

Yes, I own musicloops.com and partnersinrhyme.com among others. Sorry if my comments are not welcome, didn't mean to offend. I will bow out not. My apologies.


----------



## hector

partnersinrhyme @ Fri Jul 19 said:


> Yes, I own musicloops.com and partnersinrhyme.com among others. Sorry if my comments are not welcome, didn't mean to offend. I will bow out not. My apologies.


In this case I have a question. After what Alex has been shown to do with many tracks, why do you still list his music? Why is it not taken down it all until everything is clarified? I still see many pages and pages of Alex track even after he has proven to deliberate steal at least 10-20 pieces and change them?

For example I take a few minutes to run his most popular pieces through Shazam:

"http://www.musicloops.com/music_download/yes-we-do-commercial--12940/" matches 'The Doo Wop Song' by Adele Frodsham (https://itunes.apple.com/gb/album/the-d ... d340851080)

"http://www.musicloops.com/music_download/tales-from-scotland-5-4791/" matches 'The New England Autumn' by Soft Sounds (https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/autum ... d254656895)

You can find many of this going through his 40 pages he has on your site...


----------



## 667

partnersinrhyme @ Fri Jul 19 said:


> Alex made a huge mistake, there's no doubt about it. But it was a mistake.
> He did not upload thousands of songs that he did not write, there are probably 20 at the most that his son uploaded by mistake (Alex is lame for putting all the blame on his son but I do believe that is actually what happened). Alex is getting his catalog sorted now, I think.


He was literally stealing other peoples' tracks and adding / changing material. For example the Pirates of the Caribbean cello which is completely stolen and digitally manipulated in a poor attempt to disguise the theft. *This was not an accident, it had additional parts layered on top to try to hide the fact that the sources were stolen*. So blatant that Hans Zimmer himself has commented and referred this issue to both his lawyers and Disney's. You do not want to be on the receiving end of their attention!!! 

"My son uploaded some files I downloaded by accident" is not what happened here.


----------



## madbulk

What the hell was that?


----------



## TheUnfinished

madbulk @ Fri Jul 19 said:


> What the hell was that?


That was a PR disaster.


----------



## 667

partnersinrhyme @ Fri Jul 19 said:


> Yes, I own musicloops.com and partnersinrhyme.com among others. Sorry if my comments are not welcome, didn't mean to offend. I will bow out not. My apologies.


I'm not a lawyer but now that you've been made aware of the extent of the theft doesn't that increase your liability if you fail to act?


----------



## Greg

You can't seriously tell me any library is still licensing this guys music?


----------



## Daniel James

> I think Alex might have gone a bit too close with his knock-offs, but they were just that, knock-offs.



Its really sad to see you say that as if a knock off is no big deal, and something you don't mind carrying on a library!

-DJ


----------



## Synesthesia

Daniel James @ Fri Jul 19 said:


> I think Alex might have gone a bit too close with his knock-offs, but they were just that, knock-offs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its really sad to see you say that as if a knock off is no big deal, and something you don't mind carrying on a library!
> 
> -DJ
Click to expand...


Daniel,

I suspect that with further investigation, the royalty free library system will be a house of cards wobbling quite furiously at the moment.

Its very unfortunate for those legitimate composers trying to use the system to earn money, but as Hector has so ably demonstrated, the tools exist to check what is being submitted.

Sadly, the gatekeepers don't seem - from the evidence seen so far - to be particularly bothered about using those tools and ensuring that what they are selling is legitimate and not stolen.

It will certainly be interesting to see how this shakes down.

Cheers,

Paul


----------



## madbulk

Two different things. I don't think there would be a library standing if we took away "knock-offs." That's setting the bar pretty high.
Let's be clear, that these are purported to be complete ripoffs, not "just that, knock-offs," that got a little too close.


----------



## Greg

The curators of these libraries are basically a quality checkpoint. If they deem the music licensable they accept it.. 

Some of the libraries don't even have curators and pretty much just blindly accept content hoping that the indemnification clause will get them out of a copyright shitstorm. We shall see now if that is the case.


----------



## studioj

Greg @ Fri Jul 19 said:


> The curators of these libraries are basically a quality checkpoint. If they deem the music licensable they accept it..
> 
> Some of the libraries don't even have curators and pretty much just blindly accept content hoping that the indemnification clause will get them out of a copyright shitstorm. We shall see now if that is the case.



I would guess that when push comes to shove that their indemnifications clauses won't mean much at all. E&O insurance on the other hand... that would be the thing to lean on.


----------



## Riffs

The partnerinrhyme / musicloops guys posts are amazing... 

_"...there are probably 20 at the most that his son uploaded by mistake (Alex is lame for putting all the blame on his son but I do believe that is actually what happened)."_

Ah, OK Alex's son is responsible.

_"I think Alex might have gone a bit too close with his knock-offs, but they were just that, knock-offs."_

Oh, hold on a sec, maybe Alex IS responsible then?

_"your time is probably better spent writing a new cue than going through thousands of songs in music libraries to see if you've been ripped off."_

Hmmm....now that irked me a tad. That thinking is completely misguided and has prompted me to spend the evening going through his site looking to see if I've been ripped off.

This attitude and the fact that Mr. Khaskin still has 774 results listed on the Musicloops website I think says alot about the royalty free mindset.

BTW, IMO the POTC 'sound alike' exonerates Alex jnr. IMO as someone has spent alot of time re-arranging that sample and in its way, it is quite skilfully done. If someone is prepared to go to those lengths, then everything else purported can be seen to be extremely plausible.

IMO


----------



## ddas

To be very clear, what Alex Khaskin is doing is *not* sound-alike. It's blatant theft; it appears he's using actual audio (masters) and then manipulating them.

"Partnerinrhyme" is looking more like Partner in Crime at the moment...and it's not a stretch to guess that it might be Alex Khaskin himself or someone very close to him. No reputable business person would touch this situation with a ten foot pole.


----------



## KMuzzey

He has quite a few pirate-titled cues at Getty Music... some of them sound like real orchs, but I'm not familiar enough with the Pirates of the Caribbean score to be able to ID them. They do sound like actual score recordings though. If you've found your stuff being sold under his name on other sites, scrub through the titles under Salieri Music/Alex Khaskin at Getty Music as well. It's a big catalog.

Kerry


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

partnersinrhyme @ 19/7/2013 said:


> It is simply a rational side to the argument that your time is probably better spent writing a new cue than going through thousands of songs in music libraries to see if you've been ripped off.



Well were I to have the unfortunate bad luck to be in your thief's bag, I would think that composing new works works would just add to your 'investment' in Alex. Silly suggestion in this context.


----------



## AlanJay

I believe in Murphy`s law 
"What comes around goes around"...

The music thief and the libraries, which still host the cues, will get punished in one or another way !


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

I think you're thinking of Karma, not Murphy's Law. That said, there's no guarantee that bad guys will eventually get their comeuppance (see 2008 crash, bankers, Wall St, etc.)


----------



## AlanJay

You are right, there isn't a guarantee in this world but let's hope this time there`ll be justice.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

I am very happy that this is happening. 

Stealing music affects everyone in a bad way. 

It hurts badly all the guys who put in the hours, the hard work, the training and everything they have to give into an original track and then somebody comes along and rips them off. 

It encourages young people who go on their site to listen and feel it is 'OK' to do knock-offs.

A young composer trying to make money in this environment could get the wrong ideas and support from establishments.

It hurts all those who want to write original music and make a living. 

In India, this is so rampant that sometimes it becomes difficult for composers who are trying to be original get sidelined. 

Using audio clips under the tracks of original scores is something I have heard far too many times in movies and so many other places. It hurts all of us who want the producer to pay for a world class recording because they can go to the next guy who can just give them the sound somehow without having to spend on recording with fine musicians.

There needs to be a huge crackdown on such activities, otherwise its going to hurt everyone and just destroy the spirit of music.

Sorry to hear so many of you have been affected. 

Time to get your lawyers involved!


Tanuj.


----------



## AlanJay

Weird what`s going on there....

http://musiclibraryreport.com/forums/topic/music-library-music-ripoff/page/5/ (http://musiclibraryreport.com/forums/to ... ff/page/5/)

Some people still defending Khaskin. "Innocent until proven quilty" ?

The musicloops owner wrote that other people were also stealing from Alex to sell the cues further on amazon. How crazy is that ? Selling double hijacked cues ?

We all have ears and it`s proven that cues from Dirk, Daniel and Hans and for sure from some others were hijacked. Ah-yeah we forgot. It was his son.....

Strange, very strange.....


----------



## MichaelL

AlanJay @ Mon Jul 22 said:


> Weird what`s going on there....
> 
> http://musiclibraryreport.com/forums/topic/music-library-music-ripoff/page/5/ (http://musiclibraryreport.com/forums/to ... ff/page/5/)
> 
> Some people still defending Khaskin. "Innocent until proven quilty" ?
> 
> Strange, very strange.....




I just gave you a very long lawyer's response. But somehow, it was lost.
So...here's the simple version...

No..."innocent until proven guilty" is not a defense of Khaskin, it is a defense of the legal system and due process. That's not weird in the least. It's a system that I swore to uphold when became an attorney.

Emotion is great is music, but not so much when it comes to law. I'm as irate and disgusted as you, about Khaskin's alleged actions, but circumventing the law puts you on the same level as the behavior that you are condemning.

So, let the "suits" do their jobs, and hopefully justice will be served.


----------



## MichaelL

vibrato @ Sun Jul 21 said:


> In India, this is so rampant that sometimes it becomes difficult for composers who are trying to be original get sidelined.




Not just India Tanuj. There are illegal downloads of my music from sources all over the world, posted by desparate people, with no moral compass. Every ecosystem has its parasites. In the world of composers, it is the pirates.


----------



## AlanJay

MichaelL @ Tue 23 Jul said:


> AlanJay @ Mon Jul 22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm as irate and disgusted as you, about Khaskin's alleged actions, but circumventing the law puts you on the same level as the behavior that you are condemning.
> So, let the "suits" do their jobs, and hopefully justice will be served.
Click to expand...


My behavior is fine MichaelL and the US law is very far away from here 
And if f.e. a Russian Canadian hijacks a song of a German composer it is simply
not the responsibility of the US court !

It`s an open forum here; that`s right.
But as an European it`s kindly allowed to have an opinion !!! :D 

So, your words in god`s ear; justice will be served maybe one day....


----------



## MichaelL

AlanJay @ Tue Jul 23 said:


> [My behavior is fine MichaelL and the US law is very far away from here
> And if f.e. a Russian Canadian hijacks a song of a German composer it is simply
> not the responsibility of the US court !
> ....



Hi Alan, you are certainly allowed an opinion...maybe. :lol: 

In the US, infringement claims must be brought in federal court. In order to bring your claim, your work must be registered with the copyright office, and you must have 75K in damages. 

In many cases, unfortunately, many individual composers do not bother to register their copyright, so they would not be able to bring a claim. Additionallly, those same composers are not likely to meet the 75K damage threshold.

As such, I was thinking from the perspective of Hans Zimmer and Disney, both US based, and with far greater resources and power than individual composers.
And as Mike from CineSamples pointed out, precisely because Khaskin is located in Canada, he is within the reach of our court system. 

The best chance for justice in the US will come from any action that Disney, and/or any other large claimant may file.

Perhaps in Europe it is easier.

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

So... He's Canadian, eh? Time to call in the big guns:


----------



## Daniel James

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Jul 23 said:


> So... He's Canadian, eh? Time to call in the big guns:



hahaha Brilliant 

-DJ


----------



## MichaelL

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Jul 23 said:


> So... He's Canadian, eh? Time to call in the big guns:




:lol: love it.

BTW, someone asked earlier if there would still be claims if Khaskin's "accidental" story is true.

Yes, civil claims for negligence might be possible. Under the doctrine of respondeat superior, an employer is responsible for an employee's negligent actions, when the negligence occurs during the performance of their job. I belive that Khaskin stated that he employed his son to upolad the tracks in question.

Further, that he did not deny that the tracks were uploaded, and that he stated his son was his employee, would potentially be considered admissions. Those written statements are evidence. I'd capture them and print them. Document the date.

That might even be the better route for individuals, because you could possibley circumvent the fed court threshold requirements.


----------



## rpaillot

Something is telling me this guy's gonna return to Russia as soon as possible :D


----------



## mac4d

MichaelL @ Tue Jul 23 said:


> ...
> In the US, infringement claims must be brought in federal court. In order to bring your claim, your work must be registered with the copyright office, and you must have 75K in damages.
> 
> In many cases, unfortunately, many individual composers do not bother to register their copyright, so they would not be able to bring a claim. Additionallly, those same composers are not likely to meet the 75K damage threshold.
> 
> ...


I never heard of this 75K threshold before. Where can I read up on this?

Does that mean a company doing this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2gayE3RA0o

...that uses INCEPTION music as underscore (illegally I assume) for a trailer (and possibly the $35 movie too, though I don't know for sure), can't be sued because they likely didn't make 75K doing so?


----------



## 667

Jammie Thomas didn't make $75k. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_v._Thomas

I think it's about damages (not how much they made but how much the copyright owners claim to have lost).


----------



## MichaelL

667 is correct. The damages are not based on what the infringer made, but rather what the copyright owner lost.

There are actual damages, such has lost sales and ther are less tangible things like harm to the copyright owner's image, or the value of the original work. The more high-profile and valuable the work, the easier it is to argue for higher damages.

On the other hand, a the typical library cue might only earn a few thousand dollars during the course of it's life. it would be hard to argue that the composer sufferd 75K in damages.

Happy reading.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/28/IV/85/1332
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html

Several attempts have been made to establish a "small claims" court for copyright cases, but I don't think that's happened...yet.

http://www.copyright.gov/docs/regstat032906.html


----------



## KMuzzey

For anyone who's reading this who had their music stolen: I'm curious to know if you've gotten a resolution yet or where things stand? This topic really blew up the other day but now it's suddenly very quiet...

Kerry


----------



## Dirk Ehlert

As far as I am concerned I have been and still am in contact with mr. Kaskin through email, bear with me that I don't actually publicely post details what we agreed upon or how it turned out. 
It is to mention that I am one of the smaller portions in his catalogue, nevertheless we found a way to work it out, but that is just the way for me. I can't say how others deal with it, and I assume that he will get way more trouble than with me :D


----------



## Herman Witkam

The problem with all this public posting is that composers who now want to check if their music was stolen can't anymore, because he's already taken everything offline... :(


----------



## JDBATENBURG

The damages are a lot greater then everyone here is expecting; 

the (stolen) music has been sold through several of these (royalty free) library music sites. 
These online stores are selling "royaltie free" music for dump-prices ; based on the fact that synching original music can be very expensive

Which means that filmmakers that bought (stolen) music from these sites didn't negotiate synch fees for the music used in their production, actually the selling library websites negotiated synch fees without any legal permission. (it is to be expected that this music is being used in film productions as we speak..)

so if even 1 song is illegally sold through this site, (because it's being sold including a buy out for the synch) the damage could be more then a 100k because, synch fees are freely negotiable by copyright holders.. could be 1 dollar, could be 200k for each synch.


----------



## JDBATENBURG

MichaelL @ 23rd July 2013 said:


> AlanJay @ Tue Jul 23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [My behavior is fine MichaelL and the US law is very far away from here
> And if f.e. a Russian Canadian hijacks a song of a German composer it is simply
> not the responsibility of the US court !
> ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Alan, you are certainly allowed an opinion...maybe. :lol:
> 
> In the US, infringement claims must be brought in federal court. In order to bring your claim, your work must be registered with the copyright office, and you must have 75K in damages.
> 
> In many cases, unfortunately, many individual composers do not bother to register their copyright, so they would not be able to bring a claim. Additionallly, those same composers are not likely to meet the 75K damage threshold.
> 
> As such, I was thinking from the perspective of Hans Zimmer and Disney, both US based, and with far greater resources and power than individual composers.
> And as Mike from CineSamples pointed out, precisely because Khaskin is located in Canada, he is within the reach of our court system.
> 
> The best chance for justice in the US will come from any action that Disney, and/or any other large claimant may file.
> 
> Perhaps in Europe it is easier.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael
Click to expand...

 Synch fees are freely negotiable by copyright holder, and therefor could be 1 $ or 250000$ for that matter.. so the threshold is already reached by just selling 1 track... the royalty free sites are selling music incl. synch fees. (which is only possible when they have a licence from the copyright holders or when they own the master-tapes. Cheerz!


----------



## Synesthesia

Herman Witkam @ Wed Jul 31 said:


> The problem with all this public posting is that composers who now want to check if their music was stolen can't anymore, because he's already taken everything offline... :(



+1

Its actually the responsibility of these 'libraries' to provide a publicly accessible portal where the music can be auditioned. The likelihood is the vast majority of those who have had their IP stolen will never know, and the thief will keep the money.

However I doubt the libraries will do this, as it will expose their liability.

They will keep schtum, hope the storm will blow over, and keep the money.

Meanwhile, how many other profiles contain stolen music?


----------



## germancomponist

Synesthesia @ Wed Jul 31 said:


> Herman Witkam @ Wed Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with all this public posting is that composers who now want to check if their music was stolen can't anymore, because he's already taken everything offline... :(
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +1
> 
> Its actually the responsibility of these 'libraries' to provide a publicly accessible portal where the music can be auditioned. The likelihood is the vast majority of those who have had their IP stolen will never know, and the thief will keep the money.
> 
> However I doubt the libraries will do this, as it will expose their liability.
> 
> They will keep schtum, hope the storm will blow over, and keep the money.
> 
> Meanwhile, how many other profiles contain stolen music?
Click to expand...


+1


----------



## ddas

Are there any royalty-free libraries that haven't yet removed Khaskin's "work"? I came late to this discussion and would like to be able to look through this catalog.


----------



## Hannes_F

ddas @ Fri Aug 02 said:


> Are there any royalty-free libraries that haven't yet removed Khaskin's "work"? I came late to this discussion and would like to be able to look through this catalog.



This might (perhaps) help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Archive
http://archive.org/web/web.php


----------



## madbulk

I just did a google search on his name and had no difficulty finding hundreds of his tracks still showing up in libraries.Surprising. You'd think the potential liability would scare the libs into removing his stuff without regard for what's legit and what's not. I wouldn't want to take the chance.


----------



## Synesthesia

For all you Bond fans out there.

http://www.gettyimages.com/music/download-songs/322666


----------



## R.Cato

Synesthesia @ Sat Aug 03 said:


> For all you Bond fans out there.
> 
> http://www.gettyimages.com/music/download-songs/322666



That hurts and what hurts even more are the "original" pirate tracks on the right. (o)


----------



## Daryl

Synesthesia @ Sat Aug 03 said:


> For all you Bond fans out there.
> 
> http://www.gettyimages.com/music/download-songs/322666


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........................!

D


----------



## Tatu

There should be no sympathy for this Alex Kashkin; the guy who ripped of "everybody" and "everything". Spread the word, let the markets know.


----------



## Martin K

Synesthesia @ Sat Aug 03 said:


> For all you Bond fans out there.
> 
> http://www.gettyimages.com/music/download-songs/322666



Wow! How did THIS get past the guys at that library? They could claim that they're not familiar with the Pirates score, but Bond....? 

- Martin


----------



## germancomponist

I think he is not only the cheater. This seems to be a criminal organization. A mafia gang.


----------



## Jonathan Howe

Martin K @ Sat Aug 03 said:


> Wow! How did THIS get past the guys at that library? They could claim that they're not familiar with the Pirates score, but Bond....?
> 
> - Martin



How does it work with these libraries? Do the submitted tracks get controlled before they are released for sale?


----------



## Jdiggity1

It is clear that the track sounds like Bond, you can even call it a 'shameless rip-off', but so is a bunch of other production music. Music libraries are full of tracks trying to sound as close to Harry Potter, American Beauty, Pirates etc etc. without breaching copyright. Those tracks sell, don't they?
I am in no way wanting to defend Mr Khaskin, but was there anything actually 'stolen' in that track?


----------



## Daryl

Jdiggity1 @ Sat Aug 03 said:


> It is clear that the track sounds like Bond, you can even call it a 'shameless rip-off', but so is a bunch of other production music. Music libraries are full of tracks trying to sound as close to Harry Potter, American Beauty, Pirates etc etc. without breaching copyright. Those tracks sell, don't they?
> I am in no way wanting to defend Mr Khaskin, but was there anything actually 'stolen' in that track?


Yes, intent to copy is blatant. In any court that track would be considered a copy of the bond theme.

FWIW when a library track (or a film track, for that matter) can be show to involve intent to copy, it is probably actionable.

D


----------



## Martin K

TodayIWill @ Sun Aug 04 said:


> How does it work with these libraries? Do the submitted tracks get controlled before they are released for sale?



From what I understand, most of these libraries controls the tracks and approves them before releasing them for sale on their site. Not sure how Getty Images operates though.

- Martin


----------



## JDBATENBURG

germancomponist @ 3rd August 2013 said:


> I think he is not only the cheater. This seems to be a criminal organization. A mafia gang.



+ 1 
the selling libraries are responsible for the content they sell, there is no way out for them either.


----------



## Jdiggity1

Daryl @ Sun 04 Aug said:


> Jdiggity1 @ Sat Aug 03 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is clear that the track sounds like Bond, you can even call it a 'shameless rip-off', but so is a bunch of other production music. Music libraries are full of tracks trying to sound as close to Harry Potter, American Beauty, Pirates etc etc. without breaching copyright. Those tracks sell, don't they?
> I am in no way wanting to defend Mr Khaskin, but was there anything actually 'stolen' in that track?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, intent to copy is blatant. In any court that track would be considered a copy of the bond theme.
> 
> FWIW when a library track (or a film track, for that matter) can be show to involve intent to copy, it is probably actionable.
> 
> D
Click to expand...


Ah I see. Thanks for clearing that up D.


----------



## Riverwood Air

I think Mr Kamen would turn in his grave if he heard this!
http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/music/download-songs/358778

Link might be broken

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/music/arti ... -music-inc

Find 'Big orchestral heroic theme' at the end of page 1.


----------



## KEnK

Daryl @ Sat Aug 03 said:


> Jdiggity1 @ Sat Aug 03 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is clear that the track sounds like Bond, you can even call it a 'shameless rip-off', but so is a bunch of other production music. Music libraries are full of tracks trying to sound as close to Harry Potter, American Beauty, Pirates etc etc. without breaching copyright. Those tracks sell, don't they?
> I am in no way wanting to defend Mr Khaskin, but was there anything actually 'stolen' in that track?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, intent to copy is blatant. In any court that track would be considered a copy of the bond theme.
> 
> FWIW when a library track (or a film track, for that matter) can be show to involve intent to copy, it is probably actionable.
> 
> D
Click to expand...

Outright theft and adding tracks to someone else's work is different than what's going on in the Bond Theme here.

I think this one may be considered a "legal" sound-alike.
(If the riff (5,#5,6,#5) can be considered a chord progression.)

k


----------



## Daryl

KEnK @ Sun Aug 04 said:


> Outright theft and adding tracks to someone else's work is different than what's going on in the Bond Theme here.
> 
> I think this one may be considered a "legal" sound-alike.
> (If the riff (5,#5,6,#5) can be considered a chord progression.)
> 
> k


I disagree. Clear intent to copy.

D


----------



## KEnK

Daryl @ Sun Aug 04 said:


> KEnK @ Sun Aug 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Outright theft and adding tracks to someone else's work is different than what's going on in the Bond Theme here.
> 
> I think this one may be considered a "legal" sound-alike.
> (If the riff (5,#5,6,#5) can be considered a chord progression.)
> 
> k
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. Clear intent to copy.
> 
> D
Click to expand...

Maybe sound-a-likes are subject worthy of it's own thread.
Many of us have had to do them to satisfy a clients unrelenting temp love.
Painful and embarrassing, it is one of the things we're sometimes faced with.
Yes there is "clear intent to copy", but just below the getting sued threshold.
Chord progressions are not subject to copyright,
and maybe the Bond Riff here falls under the legal limit.
I'm not certain of that though.

k


----------



## madbulk

I'd love to have that discussion separately.

Legally, I don't know where "intent" and "an ordinary person would hear this and think..." come into it.
I'm usually pretty liberal about this sort of thing, and for the sake of just having a good fight, I think you could argue all day about whether the 5 +5 6 +5 thing is a melody or a progression. 
Personally, I hear it as melody, but I think it's perspective not fact.
But to me, that thing at :40 is where he crosses the line.


----------



## Riverwood Air

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/music/down ... ngs/509196

Sounds like one of the Cinesamples Deep Percussion beds loops (couldn't tell you which!) with a couple of extra sounds. He's that desperate...


----------



## KEnK

Aren't the CS Perc Beds sold for exactly this purpose?

I have no interest in defending this guy and I'm not into loops-
so never gave the perc beds a listen.
Isn't that what this lib is for?

It seems like there's a tendency to overdo the accusations.
Granted the guy has created a situation where everything he does is suspect.
But if using a loop lib is some kind of theft then 
half the people on this board should be in jail. :wink: 

k


----------



## Synesthesia

madbulk @ Sun Aug 04 said:


> I'd love to have that discussion separately.
> 
> Legally, I don't know where "intent" and "an ordinary person would hear this and think..." come into it.
> I'm usually pretty liberal about this sort of thing, and for the sake of just having a good fight, I think you could argue all day about whether the 5 +5 6 +5 thing is a melody or a progression.
> Personally, I hear it as melody, but I think it's perspective not fact.
> But to me, that thing at :40 is where he crosses the line.



Hey Brian,

This is an interesting read..

http://www.jollinger.com/barry/lawsuit.htm

Cheers!

Paul


----------



## madbulk

KEnK @ Sun Aug 04 said:


> Aren't the CS Perc Beds sold for exactly this purpose?
> 
> I have no interest in defending this guy and I'm not into loops-
> so never gave the perc beds a listen.
> Isn't that what this lib is for?
> 
> It seems like there's a tendency to overdo the accusations.
> Granted the guy has created a situation where everything he does is suspect.
> But if using a loop lib is some kind of theft then
> half the people on this board should be in jail. :wink:
> 
> k



You're right, but it's a matter of degree. It's very arguable, but to me, this is outside the license. In this specific case Mikes can correct me, but in general the terms are that you should add some minimally significant musical elements to create even a very derived work that you can then call your own, otherwise, you're just reselling the loops. I would call the additions in that track insignificant.


----------



## Daniel James

madbulk @ Sun Aug 04 said:


> KEnK @ Sun Aug 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't the CS Perc Beds sold for exactly this purpose?
> 
> I have no interest in defending this guy and I'm not into loops-
> so never gave the perc beds a listen.
> Isn't that what this lib is for?
> 
> It seems like there's a tendency to overdo the accusations.
> Granted the guy has created a situation where everything he does is suspect.
> But if using a loop lib is some kind of theft then
> half the people on this board should be in jail. :wink:
> 
> k
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, but it's a matter of degree. It's very arguable, but to me, this is outside the license. In this specific case Mikes can correct me, but in general the terms are that you should add some minimally significant musical elements to create even a very derived work that you can then call your own, otherwise, you're just reselling the loops. I would call the additions in that track insignificant.
Click to expand...


+!

Most libraries come with a musical context clause, which means the sounds can only be used in the context of a musical piece, some even spesifically say it can't ever be in isolation, must always be accompanies etc etc. Because, like previously mentioned, if you are soloing the loops you are basically just reselling them.

-DJ


----------



## TheUnfinished

Wow, beyond the basic stealing issues detailed earlier in this thread... How depressing must it be spending all your time copying other people's work?

Or am I just being a terrible idealist?


----------



## KEnK

TheUnfinished @ Sun Aug 04 said:


> Wow, beyond the basic stealing issues detailed earlier in this thread... How depressing must it be spending all your time copying other people's work?
> 
> Or am I just being a terrible idealist?


I worked for one director who had a terrible case of temp love.
I couldn't actually write anything and his taste in music was really bad.
It did give me a bad hit but I got through it.

Still, it probably figures pretty high on why I have such low regard for Film music.
Of course even w/o the level of temp love I've dealt with, 
film music has become ridiculously derivative and formulaic.

I look at it as a zero creativity game.

As far as where things are in the industry, 
you can say this guy we're dissing here is cutting edge. :| 
Yes- I'm very cynical about all aspects of the music industry,
and not w/o reason.

k


----------



## re-peat

I haven’t read the entire thread and the fiend under discussion is probably of very questionnable morals indeed, no doubt, but I have to say, on the copying/plagiarizing issue, I’m entirely with KEnk.
I did listen to a few of those tracks and to my ears they all stay, quite cleverly in fact, on the safe side of plagiarism.

“Clear intent to copy” Daryl says. I don’t hear that. I hear a clear intent to NOT copy, in fact. I hear a very clear intent to bring the originals to mind without actually copying them. If a composer of the abilities which the offender certainly appears to posses, really would have an intent to copy, I’m convinced (and it’s surprising that nobody else seems to be) that he could get _a whole lot closer_ to the originals than he currently does.
In short: I hear a clear (and not always unsuccessful) attempt of getting as close as he can without crossing the line. (Which is, by the way, not always the easiest of musical jobs. Just try doing a successful “Pirates”-pastiche without using any of Zimmer’s phrases, rhythms, harmonies and orchestral colours, and see how far you get. Or try doing a Bond-soundalike without using anything from the Norman-Barry idiom. Very difficult.)

(Just for the record: I really don’t like any of those tracks, absolutely not, it's just that I don’t think that anyone who would want to sue this composer for plagiarism would have an all that easy job on his/her hands.)

And if I may: there’s also something rather silly and somewhat sanctimonious about this community’s indignation when it comes to copying and plagiarizing. Anyone who has the courage to spend a bit of time in the Member’s Composition section, has to wade from one piece of derivative music to another, from one excercise in “trying to sound like …” to another. Okay, most of these pieces were not made with immediate financial profit in mind, and that makes a big ‘ethical’ difference, I know, but even so, the musical mindset and the lack of individualism, artistic pride and integrity is not all that different, it seems to me.
The Zimmer-craze appears to have died down a little these past few weeks ― and thank god (whom- or whatever he, she or it may be to you) for that ― but it wasn’t too long ago that this place was literally crawling with Zimmer-soundalikes, some of them creepily shamelessly so.
The vast majority of the members here all desperately want to sound like famous composers X, Y and Z ― that’s what most of the threads here are about, directly or indirectly, aren’t they? ―, most everybody here wants the recipe for the Zimmer sound, the Williams sound, the Powell sound, the JNH sound, the Elfman sound … Certain synths and libraries even appeal to, or are designed to exploit that very desire. So, I am sorry, but in my opinion: not too many people here are entitled to any kind of indignation when it comes to borrowing, copying or stealing music(al ideas). Many here would in fact be quite happy to attempt the exact same thing if given half the chance and all the money.

_


----------



## Craig Sharmat

normally I stay away from this section, but I am with Piet on this, these are not great copies but he did the job he felt he needed to do. I am constantly being asked to sound like and not steal on temps and my livelihood depends on it. I think if the publishing company asked him to shut this down he might be wise to do so , but they could go after 1000 other composers for doing a bond ripoff self included.


----------



## AC986

In my experience, most library music, I stress most, is made as soundalikes. Usually the flavour of the day. Hans Zimmer style has been copied to death and I can remember every piano piece froma library sounded like Thomas Newman.


----------



## Jdiggity1

adriancook @ Mon 05 Aug said:


> In my experience, most library music, I stress most, is made as soundalikes. Usually the flavour of the day. Hans Zimmer style has been copied to death and I can remember every piano piece froma library sounded like Thomas Newman.



My point exactly. It needs to be familiar (consciously or subconsciously) for instant mood recognition.
eg. Bond riff INSTANTLY creates a setting for espionage/special agents without having to think about it for a second, because we already know what that music means. Start something with a celeste and suddenly we're in Hogwarts, because that's what we know the celeste for. The piece might change drastically and no longer be magical, but it sure was to start with.


----------



## madbulk

That soundalikes are integral to our business has been touched upon. But there's still a line. If you don't feel it was crossed, fine, that's the argument. But I can't agree that because a lot of time is spent here trying to get batman spics out of samples, there can't be righteous indignation at theft. If anything it's pretty crucial that it be explored.


----------



## Riffs

adriancook @ Mon Aug 05 said:


> In my experience, most library music, I stress most, is made as soundalikes.



And your experience is?....

Certainly, for the libraries I write for, which includes EMI, soundalikes are a big - I stress BIG - NO NO. 

Maybe this is something popular with the several million RF libraries out there but you couldn't get away with it for the high end exclusive MCPS libraries. It's all about originality and creativity.

Perhaps you'd like to point to some examples in, for example, the EMI catalogue to better clarify your point? 

Or merely post a selection from the top-end MCPS libraries? That would be a good start.

You could search through the West One and Extreme catalogues too. See if you find anything there.

Considering the vast - I stress VAST - expanse of the production music genre these days and the massive - I stress MASSIVE - gulf in standards from top to bottom, the use of a very general statement which qualifies the word 'most', would seem to be a trifle silly and not based on any meaningful level of experience or empirical research.

IMO of course.


----------



## Ed

I'm not sure some of the soundalikes are against the law as clear rip offs that they are.All it means is this guy is all about the money and turned from trying to rip off people's music to literally selling them


----------



## doctornine

adriancook @ Mon Aug 05 said:


> In my experience, most library music, I stress most, is made as soundalikes. Usually the flavour of the day. Hans Zimmer style has been copied to death and I can remember every piano piece froma library sounded like Thomas Newman.




And um, which libraries do you write for ?


----------



## Jdiggity1

I'm not adriancook, nor do i have much experience writing for libraries, but all I have to do is put on the TV. Whether it is a reality TV show, travel shows, documentaries, even sports, there are rip-offs. Inception, Hall Of The Mountain King, Nutcracker, Carnival Of Animals' The Aquarium, Bond, Pirates, Potter, I hear all of these tracks being copied for production music purposes.
Disclaimer: This is about Australian free-to-air TV specifically.


----------



## AlanJay

Hi mates,

the original topic was that this guy might have stolen songs to add string sounds and melodies on top of those stolen cues and then selling this cues as his own through RF libraries !!!

The whole sound-a-like discussion is another topic


----------



## AC986

Riffs @ Mon Aug 05 said:


> adriancook @ Mon Aug 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In my experience, most library music, I stress most, is made as soundalikes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And your experience is?....
> 
> 
> Considering the vast - I stress VAST - expanse of the production music genre these days and the massive - I stress MASSIVE - gulf in standards from top to bottom, the use of a very general statement which qualifies the word 'most', would seem to be a trifle silly and not based on any meaningful level of experience or empirical research.
> 
> IMO of course.
Click to expand...


My experience is turning on the TV.

I am definitely at the bottom BUT I stress, its always good to be in the presence of a musical Demi god. Does anyone ever phone in after hearing one of your EMI library tracks and congratulate you on your originality? 

That must be a wonderful moment.


----------



## AC986

doctornine @ Mon Aug 05 said:


> adriancook @ Mon Aug 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In my experience, most library music, I stress most, is made as soundalikes. Usually the flavour of the day. Hans Zimmer style has been copied to death and I can remember every piano piece froma library sounded like Thomas Newman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And um, which libraries do you write for ?
Click to expand...


I'm sorry buddy but I just listened to your tracks on soundcloud and don't really understand the point of your question.


----------



## KMuzzey

Hmmm... the pirate stuff is still up at Getty:

http://www.gettyimages.com/music/artist ... ction=Page

Kerry


----------



## madbulk

The pirate stuff as in, POTC? or a thousand tracks of partly pirated stuff? 

You can still search his name and find lots of tracks on musicloops too. Surprising.


----------



## reid

adriancook @ 6th August said:


> doctornine @ Mon Aug 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> adriancook @ Mon Aug 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In my experience, most library music, I stress most, is made as soundalikes. Usually the flavour of the day. Hans Zimmer style has been copied to death and I can remember every piano piece froma library sounded like Thomas Newman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And um, which libraries do you write for ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm sorry buddy but I just listened to your tracks on soundcloud and don't really understand the point of your question.
Click to expand...


I think the point of the question was to illustrate the likelehood you're talking the talk without any evidence of walking the walk.


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## Ed

If I were a library I would blacklist him even if he took all the infringing tracks down. Quite a risk for them I would have thought.


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## madbulk

You'd think.


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## AC986

reid @ Wed Aug 07 said:


> adriancook @ 6th August said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> doctornine @ Mon Aug 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> adriancook @ Mon Aug 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In my experience, most library music, I stress most, is made as soundalikes. Usually the flavour of the day. Hans Zimmer style has been copied to death and I can remember every piano piece froma library sounded like Thomas Newman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And um, which libraries do you write for ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm sorry buddy but I just listened to your tracks on soundcloud and don't really understand the point of your question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think the point of the question was to illustrate the likelehood you're talking the talk without any evidence of walking the walk.
Click to expand...


Oh. OK.


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## jazz4

Such an interesting thread.

I remember this guy from audiosparx -- his stuff is still up on there. I recall listening to a track of his on there and hearing a sound taken from the American Beauty soundtrack. I thought it was pretty fishy and now a year or so later there's a whole thread about him being a serial plagarizer.

This thread has made me so damn paranoid now.

A question: Is all the supposed stolen work from these composers all demo stuff they've done for libraries?

Mr Khaskin is claiming he has those tracks in his posession specifically for VST comparisons.


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## Soundgram

Colin O'Malley @ Mon Jul 15 said:


> I had one of mine stolen by Alex Khaskin on that pond 5 as well. He stole a published and copywritten track. I'm not letting it go. He's in Canada and in full reach of the US legal system. It is disgusting to me.
> 
> Colin



This Alex Khaskin is still selling those tracks on (pumpaudio) getty images!
Listen to his rip-of from mikeal Kamen "Big opening theme" also hans zimmer rip-offs

how can we stop these people?


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## Soundgram

For all people who think Alex is not to blame:

His track "358778 Big orchestral heroic theme (Salieri Music Inc)" still up on getty (http://www.gettyimages.nl/music/artists ... -music-inc)(just search 358778) 

and now listen to the original by Mikeal Kamen Ouverture to Robin Hood: http://www.4shared.com/mp3/r6Zms_YR/rob ... thiev.html

As a composer I can tell you, this is not a sound-alike but a rir off. As far as I can hear
he used parts of the original recording by sampling, added a drumloop on top, and than used a (not so good) sample library to play and alter the melody. 
This can only be done by someone who knows music and gear. 

The big $$$ question remains, why is it still up on sites? We complain about sites (like 4sharedcom!) but what about the big players like getty? earning 65% of the paid licenses!!!


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## sleepy hollow

Was looking for some info regarding music libs and came across this thread. Interesting topic for sure, but it seems there's not much that the average (small town) composer can do about this.

I bumped this thread too: http://vi-control.net/community/threads/maybe-the-biggest-bummer-in-this-industry-so-far.32740/


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## raj music

So what happened to that alex khakis ?did he paid the money back to the respective composer ?was he legally pursued to be in court ?


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## Reid Rosefelt

Alex's 367 credits on *IMDb* continue to today. Looks like he's still going strong.

He--and his son?--have 3 awards, by the way.


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## Daniel James

TigerTheFrog said:


> Alex's 367 credits on *IMDb* continue to today. Looks like he's still going strong.
> 
> He--and his son?--have 3 awards, by the way.



He seems to list any time his music is synced from library as if he composed for the project. Bit cheeky, at least he is consistent there xD

-DJ


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## MarcusD

Jesus... Been reading through the thread with me jaw wide open! Can think of a few short and very abrasive words to describe such an individual.

Hope you guys got your money back and this ass hat got what he deserves.Makes you wonder how many more there are...


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## compos3r

Seems like this guy is still at it. I have just been contacted by a library in L.A. to confirm ownership of a track he apparently submitted to them as part of "his catalog".

Has anyone legally been going after him?


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## Midihead

Send proof. I have people I can refer you to who can shut it down. Also, if he's made money, that's an easy pro bono case. Again, send proof.


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## davidson

I don't understand this, how is he still getting away with it? So he might have to pay back royalties one in every hundred times he's caught stealing, but that's it? I like those odds tbh.


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## classified_the_x

davidson said:


> I don't understand this, how is he still getting away with it? So he might have to pay back royalties one in every hundred times he's caught stealing, but that's it? I like those odds tbh.



don't do it. think about library owners and how you'll be damaging their biz... the composer, profiting unfairly off their sweat. just don't go there. you'd me more noble stealing your local grocery store afaik


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## Fredeke

Meanwhile big C makes a fuss about Youtube infringements... Like they're the worst victims in this jungle.


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