# Do not work for free



## Ivan M. (Aug 10, 2020)

I had a female acquaintance, who managed to persuade some producer to produce an album for her, for free. The songs are religious and there's no composing, she just sings, and he's supposed to record, and maybe add some minimal instrumentation. She also asked me for advice what output to expect from him, I said ask for stems so you can do improvements later. I assumed she was broke. And assumed the producer thought this to be an easy project for his portfolio.

However, turns out that at the same time, she was buying a house, in another country, by the seaside, to rent and earn money. That's a few hundred thousand euros, don't remember the exact number, let's say it was around 200k. Then, I told her: PAY HIM! I insisted! But she didn't care.

So there it is. Do NOT work for free!

PS: If you're a producer from Netherlands, and find this familiar - stop, right now.


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## goalie composer (Aug 10, 2020)

Thanks for sounding the alarm, Ivan. 

Here is a video I recently caught on YouTube which also addresses this issue


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## doctoremmet (Aug 10, 2020)

Ivan M. said:


> I had a female acquaintance, who managed to persuade some producer to produce an album for her, for free. The songs are religious and there's no composing, she just sings, and he's supposed to record, and maybe add some minimal instrumentation. She also asked me for advice what output to expect from him, I said ask for stems so you can do improvements later. I assumed she was broke. And assumed the producer thought this to be an easy project for his portfolio.
> 
> However, turns out that at the same time, she was buying a house, in another country, by the seaside, to rent and earn money. That's a few hundred thousand euros, don't remember the exact number, let's say it was around 200k. Then, I told her: PAY HIM! I insisted! But she didn't care.
> 
> ...


Ik ben Nederlands, maar ik zweer dat ik ‘t niet was


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## Rasoul Morteza (Aug 10, 2020)

Recently I was glancing through some freelancing platforms and post after post made me laugh and cry simultaneously. Here is a good one: A composer from Sri Lanka who will compose mix master produce polish remix and make you a cappuccino for 10$/hr, whilst another guy in the US will do the exact same for 5 bucks/hr, limited time only! And oh boy the ones who sell an entire track for 7$...

Thank god their quality of work and significance in the market is abysmal, but it is only a matter of time... there's a lot to be said. If anything I'll see what I can do in the upcoming years regarding composers here in Canada who are falling in the same trap. But before I start making enemies I'll have to make a few friends first.

Cheers


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## Henu (Aug 10, 2020)

I was recently asked to perform "some metal guitar" for a local semi-known hiphop artist's new album. I was amusingly interested at first until I read that my contribution would be basically all improvisation, including riffs of my own and such.
While having some fun in the studio is another thing, I'm not interested to basically give guitar riffs for mild (if any) compensation or most likely free for someone who will then build a song (or more) out of them and keep all the rights afterwards.


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## SupremeFist (Aug 10, 2020)

Henu said:


> I was recently asked to perform "some metal guitar" for a local semi-known hiphop artist's new album. I was amusingly interested at first until I read that my contribution would be basically all improvisation, including riffs of my own and such.
> While having some fun in the studio is another thing, I'm not interested to basically give guitar riffs for mild (if any) compensation or most likely free for someone who will then build a song (or more) out of them and keep all the rights afterwards.


That's called being a session player.


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## Polkasound (Aug 10, 2020)

There's too much background information missing from this story, specifically the _intent_ of the artist, album, and producer. This is a religious album, so is it possible that both parties are investing their time into it to glorify God rather than to make a monetary profit? Is it possible she verbally offered a backend bonus for the producer in case the song found popularity? Unless she said things to intentionally mislead and deceive the producer, there should be no correlation between her wealth and the particulars of this project.


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## Henu (Aug 10, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> That's called being a session player.



No- session players (which I have a couple of decades experience on both sides of the desk) may improvise something indeed, but they are not supposed to create _new songs_ for the client based solely on their improvisation while not retaining any of the rights.


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## SupremeFist (Aug 10, 2020)

Henu said:


> No- session players (which I have a couple of decades experience on both sides of the desk) may improvise something indeed, but they are not supposed to create _new songs_ for the client based solely on their improvisation while not retaining any of the rights.


Ah OK I misunderstood, I thought the offer was that you would improvise to pre-existing tracks. But if it was just a fishing expedition for your original ideas, then yeah that's ridiculous.


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## Henu (Aug 10, 2020)

Well, as far as I know, there are pre-existing tracks and improvising on top of them is completely ok, but when deliberately asking for "new riffs", the fish is strong in this one.


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## SupremeFist (Aug 10, 2020)

Henu said:


> Well, as far as I know, there are pre-existing tracks and improvising on top of them is completely ok, but when deliberately asking for "new riffs", the fish is strong in this one.


Yeah OK as a fellow guitarist I see what you mean.


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## Ivan M. (Aug 10, 2020)

Polkasound said:


> There's too much background information missing from this story, specifically the _intent_ of the artist, album, and producer. This is a religious album, so is it possible that both parties are investing their time into it to glorify God rather than to make a monetary profit? Is it possible she verbally offered a backend bonus for the producer in case the song found popularity? Unless she said things to intentionally mislead and deceive the producer, there should be no correlation between her wealth and the particulars of this project.



Good argument! However, there are no excuses here. They are not of the same religion (and if I remember correctly the producer is not even religious). When confronted with my suggestion to pay, she avoided it, and before the big house buy was known (revealed by a mutual acquaintenance), the story was "I'm poor" and stuff like that


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## Ivan M. (Aug 10, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Ik ben Nederlands, maar ik zweer dat ik ‘t niet was


sorry, I'm not dutch, don't speak the language


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## Rory (Aug 10, 2020)

It would appear that the point of this story is that one should not donate one's time because the beneficiary might be lying about their financial situation.

I don't go through life assuming that everyone is lying, and I don't know where this tale gets you if you know that the person making the request is telling the truth/being straight.


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## mikeh-375 (Aug 11, 2020)

...it's a reasonable position to assume that a lot of producers are duplicitous in their dealings with composers, especially in advertising. I'd start with that premise given my experience of them over the years. There are good people too, but best build a relationship with them to find out who they are before letting your guard down and doing the odd favour.
My advice would be to always hold out for being paid if you feel as though advantages are being,or could be taken. There will be times when a request for freebies might, just might, be advantageous, but think long and hard before accepting. 
You are potentially setting yourself up as a mug and will not be helping your fellow composers and the industry if you don't stand firm.


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## babylonwaves (Aug 11, 2020)

I never work for free. I never give stuff away for free. Only for good friends, I do both. Never failed me.


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## Dietz (Aug 11, 2020)

babylonwaves said:


> I never work for free. I never give stuff away for free. Only for good friends, I do both. Never failed me.


I relate to this statement, although I rather mix for free than for little money when I think the project is worth the effort on a musical level. I do this once in a while and call it "students' project", then. ;-D


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## darcvision (Aug 11, 2020)

ah, time to repost this video


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## GNP (Aug 11, 2020)

I worked for free on friends' projects when I first started. Did that for almost 8 years, before I slowly started to get paid on more commercial stuff. Eventually you'll have to insist on getting paid. Can't keep doing stuff for free forever, unless if it's a cause I believe in.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 11, 2020)

I can't understand people who work for free. Sometimes I think these might be people who never held a "proper" job for a longer period, or are used to living a life of irresponsibility. I'm not lifting a finger without being paid. No matter if it's employment, music, or anything else.


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## peakles (Aug 11, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I can't understand people who work for free. Sometimes I think these might be people who never held a "proper" job for a longer period, or are used to living a life of irresponsibility. I'm not lifting a finger without being paid. No matter if it's employment, music, or anything else.



I get your point, but there are some specific situations which I think it's worth to do it. As someguys pointed earlier, to good friends or for good causes, I'd do it. A very good friend of mine, who is my main client, called me last week asking for an opening soundtrack to a webseries he is producing to a nice cause and is earning almost nothing himself. He explained the project, the situation involved and that he wouldn't be able to pay me for that. I'm still doing it and it is taking me more time than I've spent in many paid tracks I did for him, but I like to work with him, I support the cause and I'm sure the next paid work he has, he will call me again.


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## Polkasound (Aug 11, 2020)

Ivan M. said:


> Good argument! However, there are no excuses here. They are not of the same religion (and if I remember correctly the producer is not even religious). When confronted with my suggestion to pay, she avoided it, and before the big house buy was known (revealed by a mutual acquaintenance), the story was "I'm poor" and stuff like that



If she's the kind of woman who has learned how to get free stuff from pushover men by unsnapping a button, pushing up her bra, and putting on a pouty face, then the producer is on his own. But if she lied about her assets and income to take advantage of the producer's kindness, you may want to consider it a professional courtesy to contact the producer and apprise him of his client's recent home purchase.


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## Fredeke (Aug 13, 2020)

yeah but it will look so good on your resume


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## Oliverwilson1987 (Aug 20, 2020)

I totally agree with you! Working for free is not respecting yourself.
I am very annoyed by people who think that working with music is not such a difficult job and that you may not pay for it.


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## Bernard Duc (Aug 20, 2020)

Don't work for free... but money isn't the only compensation worth receiving.


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## Fredeke (Aug 20, 2020)

Oliverwilson1987 said:


> Working for free is not respecting yourself.


Or the profession.


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## Crowe (Aug 20, 2020)

Rory said:


> It would appear that the point of this story is that one should not donate one's time because the beneficiary might be lying about their financial situation.
> 
> I don't go through life assuming that everyone is lying, and I don't know where this tale gets you if you know that the person making the request is telling the truth/being straight.



Interesting. In my experience, everybody lies about something. Even my best friends will obfuscate when it suits them. This is human nature.

So blindly trusting any stranger who wants something from you is folly.

But yeah. Don't work for free.


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## asherpope (Aug 20, 2020)

Don't post this on Perspective unless you want to be lectured about how you _might_ work on a project that changes the world so you _should consider_ working for free without writing anything off


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