# How Do I Promote My Music?



## silverlight7 (May 7, 2018)

Hi everyone,

I'm creating original instrumental music with the goal of creating a business selling it.

I've been looking for ways to promote my music and get a following. Does anyone have suggestions or ideas on how to promote my music and get a following?

So far, I decided that creating instrumental covers of popular songs and submitting my music to promotional channels on Youtube would be good ideas.

The problem with the promotional channels I've found (MrEpicOSTs, ThePrimeCronus, Premium Music HQ, Pandora Journey, etc.) is that they almost exclusively promote movie-style orchestral music, especially "epic" music.

I find that type of music to be very predictable and boring. I would like to submit my music to their channels, but I'm worried that I'll have to make the same type of music to get promoted.

I can't seem to find any promotional channels for my style of music, which is more like Brian Crain, Yiruma, David Lanz, etc. -- people that compose music with memorable melodies.

However, I believe that I can still be successful with composing original music in my own style. A big part of my inspiration comes from a guy named Lucas King (https://www.youtube.com/user/LucasKingPiano). In the past 5 years, he has been able to amass 400K subscribers, even though most of his original music sounds like improvisations.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to get my music out there?

Thank you.


----------



## Desire Inspires (May 7, 2018)

You don’t need to promote your music. If it is great music, the listeners will find you. 

Work on making the best of the best of the best music you can. That is your job and your mission. Other people will promote your music once it meets the test. Most of the stuff getting “promoted” is getting listened to then ignored. 

Don’t fall into the promotion trap. Even the views on YouTube are being altered by hackers and robots. The only true way to become great is to learn your craft and live your craft. That will eventually shine through to the rest of the world!


----------



## IFM (May 7, 2018)

Sending you a PM.


----------



## dciurlizza (May 8, 2018)

I'll be back for more, but wanted to offer this real quick...

If you're up for it and feel like you have something to offer his audience, collab with Lucas King. That in itself would be major promotion!


----------



## silverlight7 (May 8, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> You don’t need to promote your music. If it is great music, the listeners will find you.
> 
> Work on making the best of the best of the best music you can. That is your job and your mission. Other people will promote your music once it meets the test. Most of the stuff getting “promoted” is getting listened to then ignored.
> 
> Don’t fall into the promotion trap. Even the views on YouTube are being altered by hackers and robots. The only true way to become great is to learn your craft and live your craft. That will eventually shine through to the rest of the world!



Thanks for the reply.

I agree that I should make the best quality music I can make, but I still believe it is beneficial to promote your music. I've seen a lot of Youtube composers end up like this guy: https://www.youtube.com/user/BigRiceRecords

Eight years of composing and still less than 12K subs? Then again, he probably composes just for fun.

Compare that to David Nevue, a successful solo piano artist who was able to quit his fulltime job in 6 years -- and his music isn't any more remarkable than the previous guy I mentioned!

Nevue has written a free book "How to Promote Your Music Successfully on the Internet", but it is several years old now, and I was wondering if there were any other ideas for promoting music.


----------



## MatFluor (May 8, 2018)

Not that I have successfully promoted music, and my knowledge is a bit dated as well (I had reasonable success inside my country with my former band).

Today, it's a lot about community - Facebook groups, YouTube, Twitter whatever. You don't need huge "promotion channels", which in the end make money off you. Run your own and promote it - make posts, share it, interact with people. Build a following that way.

So in that sense - apart from collaboration with other artists, make music, encourage people to share it on many platforms, be friendly and build a community.


----------



## silverlight7 (May 8, 2018)

dciurlizza said:


> I'll be back for more, but wanted to offer this real quick...
> 
> If you're up for it and feel like you have something to offer his audience, collab with Lucas King. That in itself would be major promotion!



That sounds like a possibility, but I'm not sure how I would collaborate with him. I'll have to think about it more.



MatFluor said:


> Not that I have successfully promoted music, and my knowledge is a bit dated as well (I had reasonable success inside my country with my former band).
> 
> Today, it's a lot about community - Facebook groups, YouTube, Twitter whatever. You don't need huge "promotion channels", which in the end make money off you. Run your own and promote it - make posts, share it, interact with people. Build a following that way.
> 
> So in that sense - apart from collaboration with other artists, make music, encourage people to share it on many platforms, be friendly and build a community.



Yes, I've read about a lot of people using social media to promote their music. Does Facebook really help though? I've noticed that a lot of composers/musicians don't update their Facebook pages very often (maybe 3 or 4 times a year).


----------



## IFM (May 8, 2018)

silverlight7 said:


> That sounds like a possibility, but I'm not sure how I would collaborate with him. I'll have to think about it more.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I've read about a lot of people using social media to promote their music. Does Facebook really help though? I've noticed that a lot of composers/musicians don't update their Facebook pages very often.



Yes if you build your culture and community around your micro-niche.


----------



## Dear Villain (May 8, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> You don’t need to promote your music. If it is great music, the listeners will find you.
> 
> Work on making the best of the best of the best music you can. That is your job and your mission. Other people will promote your music once it meets the test. Most of the stuff getting “promoted” is getting listened to then ignored.
> 
> Don’t fall into the promotion trap. Even the views on YouTube are being altered by hackers and robots. The only true way to become great is to learn your craft and live your craft. That will eventually shine through to the rest of the world!



I'm sorry, but this idealism is not reality. It's not, "if you create it, they will listen", it's "if you create it, market it, get tons of lucky breaks, write music that appeals to a large listener base, persevere for many years, keep improving, keep marketing, keep getting lucky breaks, they will listen." (And that likely will still not make you any significant income...). Do it because you love it...it's the only part of the game you can control.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (May 8, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> You don’t need to promote your music. If it is great music, the listeners will find you.



Say what? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Promoting and marketing yourself (and ones music) is the key to finding any type of success. Talent is only a very small part of the big picture.


----------



## Desire Inspires (May 8, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Say what? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Promoting and marketing yourself (and ones music) is the key to finding any type of success. Talent is only a very small part of the big picture.



So what solutions do you offer?


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (May 8, 2018)

As the OP mentioned, a YouTube channel is a good start. Social media is KING, it's an invaluable tool for selling yourself as an artist in this day and age. Without promoting the shit out of yourself, you are going nowhere. Pretty much all of my work in past number of years is a direct result of promoting my services through social media. So in order to get people to come to you, you need to let the world know about your music.


----------



## dciurlizza (May 8, 2018)

Heya! Regarding your original ideas, I like where you're going with all this.

Promotion is so much more than sharing our music - it can get much deeper than that. Maybe this'll shed light on some new ideas...

*SERVING THE AUDIENCE*

Generally, gaining more attention on music is about connecting with our intended audience. I think Lucas does this so well. Even his video titles are on point; if someone searches for "sad piano music," his video shows up.

Establish what you want to do with your music, then think about what your ideal audience might want. The more we serve our listeners, collaborators, and people we interact with, the more we'll see positive results for ourselves.

*DISTRIBUTION IS SO IMPORTANT*

Promotion is absolutely crucial. I work in trailers and commercials, and there's a ton of money involved in those campaigns. And for good reason...

Even if we have - literally - the greatest piece of art in front of us, it won't matter because nobody will know about it. Similarly, the subjectively worst piece of work can have massive success due to proper distribution.

A book that does an amazing job at explaining the reasoning behind this is Hit Makers: The Science of Popularity in an Age of Distraction. The main idea is that distribution - getting a product in front of people so they're aware if it (and then enticed to buy into it) - is a huge part of making something successful.

I work with Ouput on a lot of their sound design stuff with my company, and we're always thinking about how to serve musicians the best we can:

"What are they going to want?"
"What kind of crazy sounds would I play with as a film composer?"

Similarly, you can think about what kind of audience you want and ask the same kinds of questions about them.

*FAN SCORES*

Something that helped my music gain more attention early on - despite not focusing on brand awareness - was to write "fan scores." I looked for movies that interested me and wrote music for them like I was scoring the film. It was never a commercial endeavor, but more an experiment to see what it'd be like if I wrote for a major blockbuster.

When finished, I uploaded the music on YT and mentioned that it was a fan score for [Movie Title] - never using themes from the movie (except for once, when I played with Star Wars Dark Side themes). People would search for that movie's trailer music and, on the side bar, stumble upon my music.

That said, I don't do this anymore now that I know what kind of effect it has on a movie's brand. Artists want total control over their brand, and that's fair. But, there's no denying that it helped people discover my music.

*FACEBOOK MARKETING*

Other than sound design, I've worked with Output's marketing team on a few of their campaigns. With 195k followers and an ever-growing amount of reach, Facebook has been THE thing from the start. What's worked for them other than content is being specific about who they want to target. Marketing platforms have a feature that lets users target specific kinds of people.

As an example, if I were marketing your music based on your goals, I'd target people that listen to Lucas King, MrEpicOSTs, ThePrimeCronus, Brian Crain, etc.

If we do that on FB, people that go to those channels would see your ads on their FB timeline. It works, but only if the content and audience are in sync.

*COLLABORATIONS*

I feel like this is a HUGE opportunity. There's a lot of magic in getting together with other people to create art. Moreover, if those people have a decent following, there'll be a lot of cross-pollination.

Find someone whose work you admire and ask them if they'd like to collaborate on a track. If they agree, take the initiative - start something and send it to them. You can try this with Lucas... shoot him a message. Maybe he's looking to put out more music?

*MAKE A GENUINE CONNECTION*

However we decide to go about promoting our music, it'll be good to remember that making a genuine connection with someone - even just one person at a time - is what's going to push our success forward. Interact with people and reply to as many comments as you can (especially early on). Always be kind, always be helpful, and keep things positive.

Let me know if you've got more questions about all this. Would love to help out!


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (May 8, 2018)

dciurlizza said:


> Even if we have - literally - the greatest piece of art in front of us, it won't matter because nobody will know about it. Similarly, the subjectively worst piece of work can have massive success due to proper distribution.



^ This.


----------



## Dear Villain (May 8, 2018)

dciurlizza said:


> *MAKE A GENUINE CONNECTION*
> 
> However we decide to go about promoting our music, it'll be good to remember that making a genuine connection with someone - even just one person at a time - is what's going to push our success forward. Interact with people and reply to as many comments as you can (especially early on). Always be kind, always be helpful, and keep things positive.
> 
> Let me know if you've got more questions about all this. Would love to help out!



Now, this is some well thought out, genuine, helpful advice. I'm sure many people will benefit from this, as I hope to. Thanks so much!

Dave


----------



## silverlight7 (May 8, 2018)

dciurlizza said:


> Heya! Regarding your original ideas, I like where you're going with all this.
> 
> Promotion is so much more than sharing our music - it can get much deeper than that. Maybe this'll shed light on some new ideas...
> 
> ...



Wow, thanks for the detailed response! I'll take some time to think about the different ways I can apply your advice.

It sounds like I should create a Facebook page and find ways to target my niche audience on there.

Collaborating with other artists also sounds like a good idea, although I wonder if I would have better success with less established composers... I suppose it doesn't hurt to contact people like Lucas King anyway and ask if they want to work together.


----------



## silverlight7 (May 9, 2018)

Just curious, what do you think of using clickbait titles on Youtube videos? This guy on Youtube does this for piano covers and tutorials, such as this one:


Honestly, he uses some of the most cringeworthy video titles and thumbnails I've ever seen, but it seems to attract more people. I would be a little embarrassed to use titles like "Most Beautiful Piano Piece Ever!!!"


----------



## Desire Inspires (May 9, 2018)

silverlight7 said:


> Just curious, what do you think of using clickbait titles on Youtube videos? This guy on Youtube does this for piano covers and tutorials, such as this one:
> 
> 
> Honestly, he uses some of the most cringeworthy video titles and thumbnails I've ever seen, but it seems to attract more people. I would be a little embarrassed to use titles like "Most Beautiful Piano Piece Ever!!!"




You don’t need gimmicks. Just make great music. Views don’t equal quality. Play the long game. Forget the hype and the spotlight.


----------



## CT (May 9, 2018)

silverlight7 said:


> Just curious, what do you think of using clickbait titles on Youtube videos? This guy on Youtube does this for piano covers and tutorials, such as this one:
> 
> 
> Honestly, he uses some of the most cringeworthy video titles and thumbnails I've ever seen, but it seems to attract more people. I would be a little embarrassed to use titles like "Most Beautiful Piano Piece Ever!!!"




The _fremdschämen_ is strong with this one....


----------



## jesc126 (May 9, 2018)

silverlight7 said:


> Just curious, what do you think of using clickbait titles on Youtube videos? This guy on Youtube does this for piano covers and tutorials, such as this one:
> 
> 
> Honestly, he uses some of the most cringeworthy video titles and thumbnails I've ever seen, but it seems to attract more people. I would be a little embarrassed to use titles like "Most Beautiful Piano Piece Ever!!!"




Gosh, that is a terrible piano tone. And really bland composition. 2.7M views!? I don't get it.


----------



## MatFluor (May 9, 2018)

silverlight7 said:


> Just curious, what do you think of using clickbait titles on Youtube videos? This guy on Youtube does this for piano covers and tutorials, such as this one:
> 
> 
> Honestly, he uses some of the most cringeworthy video titles and thumbnails I've ever seen, but it seems to attract more people. I would be a little embarrassed to use titles like "Most Beautiful Piano Piece Ever!!!"




What I hate about these kind of videos is the clickbait and the tag "tutorial" - hell, It's a damn MIDI played back with Synthesia....

As Desire Inspires said - views != Quality. Depending on what you want, make clickbait titles, tag the hell outta your videos and get them views. But that doesn't mean sustainable followers, that just means that the clickbait triggered some people to watch it. But that seems to be the norm - e.g. Rick Beatos videos have clickbaity titles (which I don't like) and so do many others - from respectable music, down to your average 14yo SoundCloud rapper.


----------



## dciurlizza (May 10, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> Now, this is some well thought out, genuine, helpful advice. I'm sure many people will benefit from this, as I hope to. Thanks so much!
> 
> Dave



Truly a pleasure, Dave!


----------



## dciurlizza (May 10, 2018)

silverlight7 said:


> It sounds like I should create a Facebook page and find ways to target my niche audience on there.
> 
> Collaborating with other artists also sounds like a good idea, although I wonder if I would have better success with less established composers... I suppose it doesn't hurt to contact people like Lucas King anyway and ask if they want to work together.



You don't necessarily have to go for a FB page - just focus on a few things you really feel like pushing. That way, you'll do them well and be consistent about it, which will lead to better results in the long term. My first thing was YouTube - plateued at around 5k subs after a few years, then moved to SoundCloud. Now I'm focusing on Spotify... just following my audience and making it easy on them to listen and discover.

Definitely doesn't hurt to ask for collabs. If it doesn't work, find someone else to connect with. As you progress, you'll have more material and experience to add value to bigger brands.

Everything we do adds up (even the not-so-productive stuff), so it's worth doing the things that'll get us to the next level of goals.

And if you're looking for more ideas or are trying to figure something out as you progress, don't hesitate to ask on the forum or message me personally - I'm down to help!


----------



## AlexandraMusic (May 10, 2018)

dciurlizza said:


> You don't necessarily have to go for a FB page - just focus on a few things you really feel like pushing. That way, you'll do them well and be consistent about it, which will lead to better results in the long term. My first thing was YouTube - plateued at around 5k subs after a few years, then moved to SoundCloud. Now I'm focusing on Spotify... just following my audience and making it easy on them to listen and discover.
> 
> Definitely doesn't hurt to ask for collabs. If it doesn't work, find someone else to connect with. As you progress, you'll have more material and experience to add value to bigger brands.
> 
> ...



Wise words!

I've also been trying to navigate my way on the 'self-promotion and marketing' journey and it's definitely challenging and a real learning curve! I definitely agree that everything you do adds up. It's about being strategic, exploring many possibilities and avenues and using our creatives noggins as much as possible


----------



## jhughes (May 10, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> You don’t need to promote your music. If it is great music, the listeners will find you.
> 
> Work on making the best of the best of the best music you can. That is your job and your mission. Other people will promote your music once it meets the test. Most of the stuff getting “promoted” is getting listened to then ignored.
> 
> Don’t fall into the promotion trap. Even the views on YouTube are being altered by hackers and robots. The only true way to become great is to learn your craft and live your craft. That will eventually shine through to the rest of the world!



I don't agree with this at all.
If it was true then why the following:
1)Why does some pretty awful music have a huge following. Not just likes/shares/online but "fans."
2)Why do some of the best musicians I know, barely anyone knows about them and while they play gigs, some struggle to get by.

It's not Field of Dreams here, "If you build it they will come" or the old saying, "Be so good they can't ignore you."
It's just not that simple, especially in todays world where there is almost no barrier to entry and your material can get lost in a sea of other mediocre stuff.

One that is more spot on:
"Obscurity is the single biggest killer to a business"
It's simple, you can be serving the best hamburgers around and sure word of mouth MAY get out, but while you are waiting on them to come, you could go out of business. This is why businesses spend money on advertisement and analyze what works and doesn't.

It's why some musicians end up having to find a new job because they have playing/technical sense but no business sense. It's a different world.


----------



## jhughes (May 10, 2018)

Some "solutions" (not really)

1)Have a website, create a blog, write about what it is you do or want to do regularly. It boosts your search engine rankings. Most of all if those other platforms go under, your website is still there. It takes more time but it can be a winner.
2)Youtube-Join the other million videos. Works for some, doesn't work for others. You need to post regularly. I think it's an uphill battle myself. I have a friend that was on there for ten years, his channel did much of nothing for that period of time until one day he posted the right video and boom, he now has 10,000 subscribers and it's working great. Personally I've got some gigs from youtube.
3)Pinterest/Reddit are places you can post. Go to all the boards on reddit your music applies and post. Pinterest is weird but also can be yet another way people find you. For example, 10% of my youtube traffic came from pinterest last month.
4)Get airplay. Pandora is easy to submit to, Spotify, etc.
5)Facebook-another hit or miss, can be a time zapper. If you go this route, don't share from Youtube because almost no one will see your stuff due to algorithm. It doesn't work for me, but then again I'm not "cool."
6)Talk about yourself incessantly, brag, tell people you are great even if you aren't. This seems to be a formula I've noticed with some successful people whose music is sub-par. Pretty soon you'll have followers and the more you amass the greater people will think you are, lol.
7)Person to Person contact-find the people that are doing what you want to do and discover a way to get your music to them, or simply talk to them about it. Learn what's worked for them.

I would simply say you can spread yourself thing with all of this stuff and be left with not a lot of time to practice your craft so balance it. Don't just wing it, work on it and see whats driving traffic/interest.


----------



## silverlight7 (May 10, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> What I hate about these kind of videos is the clickbait and the tag "tutorial" - hell, It's a damn MIDI played back with Synthesia....
> 
> As Desire Inspires said - views != Quality. Depending on what you want, make clickbait titles, tag the hell outta your videos and get them views. But that doesn't mean sustainable followers, that just means that the clickbait triggered some people to watch it. But that seems to be the norm - e.g. Rick Beatos videos have clickbaity titles (which I don't like) and so do many others - from respectable music, down to your average 14yo SoundCloud rapper.



The problem I always see with clickbait titled videos (whether or not they're related to music) is that they almost never have anything remarkable or outstanding about them. The content they contain is almost always mediocre at best. Perhaps for this reason it is better to avoid using these titles.



dciurlizza said:


> You don't necessarily have to go for a FB page - just focus on a few things you really feel like pushing. That way, you'll do them well and be consistent about it, which will lead to better results in the long term. My first thing was YouTube - plateued at around 5k subs after a few years, then moved to SoundCloud. Now I'm focusing on Spotify... just following my audience and making it easy on them to listen and discover.
> 
> Definitely doesn't hurt to ask for collabs. If it doesn't work, find someone else to connect with. As you progress, you'll have more material and experience to add value to bigger brands.
> 
> ...



Thanks for spending so much time brainstorming and writing all your suggestions here!

From your advice, I've decided to continue to make my music the way I like it (not how someone else wants it to get on a promotional channel) and find ways to build a network. Collaborating with other artists and making myself visible to my target audience through Youtube, Facebook, and Soundcloud sounds like a good idea. Time to hustle!

I'll let you know if I get stuck again or need advice. Thanks for being so helpful!


----------



## silverlight7 (May 10, 2018)

jhughes said:


> Some "solutions" (not really)
> 
> 1)Have a website, create a blog, write about what it is you do or want to do regularly. It boosts your search engine rankings. Most of all if those other platforms go under, your website is still there. It takes more time but it can be a winner.
> 2)Youtube-Join the other million videos. Works for some, doesn't work for others. You need to post regularly. I think it's an uphill battle myself. I have a friend that was on there for ten years, his channel did much of nothing for that period of time until one day he posted the right video and boom, he now has 10,000 subscribers and it's working great. Personally I've got some gigs from youtube.
> ...



All good ideas as well, thanks for the suggestions!


----------



## Dear Villain (May 10, 2018)

I'm the proud owner of a site that I'm branding "The Loneliest Site on the Internet!"


----------



## dciurlizza (May 10, 2018)

silverlight7 said:


> Thanks for spending so much time brainstorming and writing all your suggestions here!



Hey, it's really a pleasure!



silverlight7 said:


> From your advice, I've decided to continue to make my music the way I like it (not how someone else wants it to get on a promotional channel) and find ways to build a network. Collaborating with other artists and making myself visible to my target audience through Youtube, Facebook, and Soundcloud sounds like a good idea. Time to hustle!
> 
> I'll let you know if I get stuck again or need advice. Thanks for being so helpful!



Love it - really excited for your journey into this!!


----------



## Desire Inspires (May 10, 2018)

jhughes said:


> I don't agree with this at all.
> If it was true then why the following:
> 1)Why does some pretty awful music have a huge following. Not just likes/shares/online but "fans."
> 2)Why do some of the best musicians I know, barely anyone knows about them and while they play gigs, some struggle to get by.
> ...



You really need to focus on making a quality product first and foremost.

I see a lot of terrible music with lots of views. That does not mean that those people have true fans. That does not mean that the creator is making good money either. It just means that some random people were entertained by a video.

Promotion of a bad product is bad business. Period. If you want to focus on promoting mediocre product, have at it. That is not a race I would advise anyone to enter.

Don’t be desperate for short term gains. Play the long game by making great work and investing in creating great experiences for your audience. Popularity comes and goes!

———

Even gaining quick fame can lead to a quicker path to being forgotten. There are hundreds of Youtubers that had mega viral channels that are doing nothing. Look here:



———

I see many videos with simple music that has lots of views. Here is a prime example (over 641 million views):


----------



## Desire Inspires (May 10, 2018)

silverlight7 said:


> I've seen a lot of Youtube composers end up like this guy: https://www.youtube.com/user/BigRiceRecords
> 
> Eight years of composing and still less than 12K subs? Then again, he probably composes just for fun.
> 
> Compare that to David Nevue, a successful solo piano artist who was able to quit his fulltime job in 6 years -- and his music isn't any more remarkable than the previous guy I mentioned!



David Nevue only has around 700 youtube subscribers. So this “promotion” thing on YouTube is overrated. 

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCFOth98glTv-A35irJQPVlw


----------



## silverlight7 (May 10, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> You really need to focus on making a quality product first and foremost.
> 
> I see a lot of terrible music with lots of views. That does not mean that those people have true fans. That does not mean that the creator is making good money either. It just means that some random people were entertained by a video.
> 
> ...



I agree with you. Making the best quality music should be our first and foremost priority.

The reason I'm asking for advice on promoting my music is that I've been composing pieces for the past several months and uploading them to Youtube, but I practically have no audience. I realize that it takes time to build up a real fanbase, but this isn't really getting me anywhere. 

Most of my subscribers are people who watched a few Synthesia tutorials I made back when I started my channel (this was before I started composing music seriously), and they just want more tutorials of their favorite songs. They don't really care about my music.



Desire Inspires said:


> David Nevue only has around 700 youtube subscribers. So this “promotion” thing on YouTube is overrated.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCFOth98glTv-A35irJQPVlw



Right again -- I probably shouldn't have used Youtube subscribers/views as a measure of someone's success. Some people, like Lucas King, center their business on their Youtube channel, while most others I've seen, like David Nevue and Brian Crain, don't really bother with Youtube.

I guess this just shows that there are many ways to create a successful business.

When I first started this thread, I was mostly concerned with creating a successful Youtube channel, as that seemed to be the easiest way to get a following. However, as I do more research, I see that a lot of composers find success (i.e. make a living) without having a huge Youtube channel.

Thank you for your posts as well. They're helping me think outside of the box!


----------



## Greg (May 10, 2018)

Youtube favors videos that play into its algorithm. You want long videos uploaded daily if possible with a targeted keyword phrase like Sad Piano Music. It really has little to do with the actual music and everything to do with taking advantage of the suggest video algorithm. Someone like Lucas King making quick improv pieces and uploading multiple songs a week has a huge advantage. Same with the epic music channels, they post hour long montages that generate long watch times which youtube loves.


----------



## Greg (May 10, 2018)

gregh said:


> I haven't seen a lot of evidence of transfer from internet popularity to income for composers.



Youtube adrev income can be absolutely insane for composers that take advantage of it. Im sure a few people here can attest to that.


----------



## gregh (May 10, 2018)

Greg said:


> Youtube adrev income can be absolutely insane for composers that take advantage of it. Im sure a few people here can attest to that.


oops I am in a wrong thread for me


----------



## Seycara (May 11, 2018)

silverlight7 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm creating original instrumental music with the goal of creating a business selling it.
> 
> ...



The following is my honest perspective from personal experience so far:

Lucas King's channel is a prime example of being in the right place at the right time; I'm not bashing his works in anyway and they have a nice relaxing feel to most of them. However, as someone that has been running a channel for a year with almost 20k subscribers now, it is my opinion that if you started a channel right now in 2018 uploading similar quality content I am doubtful that you will get to 400k subscribers in the next 10 years.

Be warned, the YouTube music market is always becoming increasingly saturated and the only way of being discovered in an environment of ever more competition is to:

1. Provide substantially higher quality of music than what the competitors are offering
2. Provide substantially higher quantity of music than what the competitors are offering
3. Have a good knowledge of what media is trending

Ideally you have to do _all three consistently_ to see substantial growth over time. I know this sounds harsh but that's the reality of the situation. You might realize that you need to up your production game or increase your content's relevancy to current trends; whatever it is that is missing you'll have to make up for it as there is almost no viewership for sub-par content on YouTube these days. Also, you should consider partnering up with well known channels for collaborations if possible.

Also I recommend taking popular themes from TV/Games/Anime/Media and putting your own spin on them instead of doing all original works; it is *extremely difficult* to increase popularity with original music. Below are some links to my channel if you are looking for some inspiration; hope this helped.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (May 11, 2018)

silverlight7 said:


> I agree with you. Making the best quality music should be our first and foremost priority.



I guess it depends what constitutes "quality music". Mainstream radio is full of mediocre (and garbage) music and those "artists" are successful because they have a huge amount of marketing and promotion behind them. Nicki Minaj is a perfect example....she's successful because the record label shoved it down the public's throat. Otherwise, she's probably have a few hits on YouTube and blown away like a fart in the wind. Marketing and luck are your secret weapons.


----------



## Greg (May 11, 2018)

Seycara said:


> Be warned, the YouTube music market is always becoming increasingly saturated and the only way of being discovered in an environment of ever more competition is to:
> 
> 1. Provide substantially higher quality of music than what the competitors are offering
> 2. Provide substantially higher quantity of music than what the competitors are offering
> 3. Have a good knowledge of what media is trending



That will get you nowhere without understanding the keyword search and suggested video algorithms. The music has to be somewhat relevant to the title but thats about it..


----------



## Seycara (May 11, 2018)

Greg said:


> That will get you nowhere without understanding the keyword search and suggested video algorithms. The music has to be somewhat relevant to the title but thats about it..



That is what I implied with "3. Have a good knowledge of what media is trending"


----------



## silverlight7 (May 11, 2018)

Seycara said:


> The following is my honest perspective from personal experience so far:
> 
> Lucas King's channel is a prime example of being in the right place at the right time; I'm not bashing his works in anyway and they have a nice relaxing feel to most of them. However, as someone that has been running a channel for a year with almost 20k subscribers now, it is my opinion that if you started a channel right now in 2018 uploading similar quality content I am doubtful that you will get to 400k subscribers in the next 10 years.
> 
> ...



Aye, this does sound difficult. Part of the reason I avoided making covers was that everyone on Youtube already does that. I figured that avenue was oversaturated, but I suppose there's always room for more if you do find a way to make them unique.

By the way, I remember listening to your cover of "Shelter" not too long after it was released, and I found it to be quite enjoyable. I've always been a fan of music by Studio Ghibli and Joe Hisashi.

Thanks for the advice!


----------



## matt_e (May 12, 2018)

Here’s a few things I’ve noticed about Lucas King’s YouTube after following/analysing him for about a year:

1. Most of his songs are consistently piano-based in a melancholic(?) style.

2. Most of his songs are also based on a theme which he highlights in the song’s title and artwork - i.e. illnesses, fears, personality traits and disorders, mental health issues, dark feelings and thoughts. These themes tap into the human experience giving his music a broad appeal.​
The theme infuses the song with added meaning. This creates a stronger emotional connection with the listener than it would without the theme. If you identify with one (or more) of those themes then the song becomes more meaningful. I particularly remember a song called “One More Day” that had artwork showing a child holding a golden retriever - Lucas mentioned in the description that his dog had just passed away. Oh man, I bawled like a little baby while listening to that song. I don’t think the song would have impacted me as much without the theme, artwork and brief description. Other songs like “Depression”, “Lost”, “Cancer” etc … connected with me as well. His music is instrumental, so it’s almost like the theme replaces the missing lyrics gives voice to feelings in the listener that are often difficult to express - just like lyrics do.

3. The artwork/thumbnail matches the theme of each song really well.​
4. He’s chosen to pursue a niche. I’ve yet to find many (if any songs) that deviate from his chosen style. This means his followers/listeners know what to expect.​
5. He adheres almost religiously to the above and rarely deviates. He’s got a strong vision for his music and he has executed well on that vision over an extended period of time.​
Those five things make for quite a strong “brand”. He knows who he is as a musician and he presents his music to the world in a compelling and consistent way that connects with people on an emotional level beyond just the music. If you take away #2 and #3 and he’s probably just another talented pianist on YouTube.

6. He posts regularly - two or three times a week. Sometimes four, but always at least once a week. Consistency over time is really important.​
So yeah, in my opinion, Lucas has done a great job at combining all of the above, and he’s done it in his own way. To me, it feels authentic. And I guess that’s the key. None of us can copy what someone like Lucas has done, but we can use the same marketing and branding principles to create a strong brand around our music. Substitute your own style, and take away the themes that Lucas uses to enhance his music, everything else is Marketing and Branding 101.


silverlight7 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm creating original instrumental music with the goal of creating a business selling it.
> 
> ...


----------



## gregh (May 12, 2018)

why not try a niche generator process? Sit down and think of as many personality types as you can and see if you think they are genuine market opportunities that fit your skill set. This would be akin to scenario development in user experience design. From matt_e we see that King has a niche in melancholy/depressives. Why not try for over achievers disappointed in personal failure - or highly successful ruthless futures dealers seeking affirmation as they jog etc etc
This probably sounds cynical - and maybe it is - but if your goal is to make money from music targeted to a specific audience then developing multiple personas and testing their needs against your skills and interests is not a bad way to go about it - ie consider this a design exercise (which in fact it is)


----------



## matt_e (May 12, 2018)

silverlight7 said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I agree that I should make the best quality music I can make, but I still believe it is beneficial to promote your music. I've seen a lot of Youtube composers end up like this guy: https://www.youtube.com/user/BigRiceRecords
> 
> ...



I haven't had a chance to listen to his music yet, but I took a quick look at BigRice Records' YouTube page and noticed something interesting (to me at least). He's only posted around 12 songs to YouTube in the last year, and there were some months that were skipped.

Contrast that with Lucas King who has posted approx. 100 songs to YouTube in the last year. In fact, Lucas seems to have posted as many songs in the last month as BigRice did in the last year.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that quality doesn't matter and I'm not saying that quantity is everything. It's complex. But, when it comes to YouTube and keeping people engaged, it seems that frequency matters somehow.

Anyway, I thought that was interesting.


----------



## Rv5 (May 12, 2018)

Greg said:


> Youtube favors videos that play into its algorithm. You want long videos uploaded daily if possible with a targeted keyword phrase like Sad Piano Music. It really has little to do with the actual music and everything to do with taking advantage of the suggest video algorithm. Someone like Lucas King making quick improv pieces and uploading multiple songs a week has a huge advantage. Same with the epic music channels, they post hour long montages that generate long watch times which youtube loves.





Greg said:


> Youtube adrev income can be absolutely insane for composers that take advantage of it. Im sure a few people here can attest to that.



As @Greg says, YouTube's algorithm is something good to be aware of if you'd like to gain views and subscribers and grow a channel. One of the most crucial aspects of this, certainly more so in recent years, is consistency. I always say content first, for sure, but regular uploads have massive impact on growth and engagement over time. That's why you'll find YouTube channels with millions of views but fewer subscribers (like mine), to those whose videos get thousands of views, yet have far more subscribers.

YouTube encourages videos that have high engagement in the form of comments and likes. You'll see YouTubers asking questions, 'love to hear your thoughts in the comments below' 'what do you guys think about xyz' 'comment your favourite whatever' etc. While it is genuinely nice to engage with fans, it's also to help that level of channel activity to keep it growing/afloat. Another change in recent years is watch time. In the earlier days of YouTube, there was an issue with clickbaity thumbnails and titles; clicking gave the video views, but once people found they were misled and the video wasn't as advertised, they would down-vote and leave, but the views still counted. This has now changed so YouTube prioritises the watch-time of the videos instead, i.e. the longer someone stays on your video, the better this ranks in YouTube's algorhythms which is what @Greg was saying with the long playlist videos. Ever see YouTuber folk saying they have something in the video to wait for, or have certain sections they always do in the middle or at the end? It's part of the plan to keep you engaged in the videos and up the watch time. This is where engaging content obviously helps - give the viewer a reason to stay.

The personal touch - introduce yourself from time to time, make a personal video here and there. This is something I've completely shied away from so I'm not practicing what I preach, but your subscribers will respond well to this. It establishes a connection and more of a 'core' base. Those are the ones waiting for your next track, clicking links to your iTunes/merch/website, commenting, sharing with their friends/social networks and giving your new uploads the initial views to help sustain and grow the channel.

YouTube also likes higher quality video, shoot/render in 1080/4k/6k. Thumbnails and titles are very important of course, as are the keywords and description. Keep in mind the top line of each of your video description is what will be most seen/clicked.

Bit of a ramble, feel free to pm with any questions!

Ross


----------



## silverlight7 (May 12, 2018)

Thank you all for the ideas! I'll reply on Monday when I have more time to reply to you thoughtfully (very busy at my fulltime job this weekend).


----------



## silverlight7 (May 14, 2018)

matt_e said:


> Here’s a few things I’ve noticed about Lucas King’s YouTube after following/analysing him for about a year:
> 
> 1. Most of his songs are consistently piano-based in a melancholic(?) style.
> 
> ...



Lucas is able to release music really quickly because most of his piano music is more or less improvisations. (I read that he basically hits the record button, plays whatever he is feeling, and uploads that.)

I'm not saying that that's bad -- his music is relaxing and I find some of it enjoyable. Being able to upload music several times a week works very well for Youtube.

I'm accustomed to spending as much time as is needed to perfect a composition. I think that this results in a better quality composition, but I can't do that several times a week easily.

Like you said, I guess the most important takeaway is creating a niche brand and promoting it.



matt_e said:


> I haven't had a chance to listen to his music yet, but I took a quick look at BigRice Records' YouTube page and noticed something interesting (to me at least). He's only posted around 12 songs to YouTube in the last year, and there were some months that were skipped.
> 
> Contrast that with Lucas King who has posted approx. 100 songs to YouTube in the last year. In fact, Lucas seems to have posted as many songs in the last month as BigRice did in the last year.
> 
> ...



I think BigRice takes his time to perfect each composition and then practices it until he can play it perfectly. That's probably why he releases so few.

There are a couple of very popular anime pianists on Youtube that do advanced piano covers of anime songs, Animenz (https://www.youtube.com/user/Animenzzz) and Theishter (https://www.youtube.com/user/TehIshter). They typically release only 1 or 2 videos a month because it takes them a while to arrange the songs and practice them until they can play them perfectly.

Theishter also makes a full-time income on Patreon from his fans.

Of course, their popularity is due to the fact that they make covers of popular anime, rather than make original songs. I think their fans also like the fact that their arrangements are also more technically challenging than most other anime pianists. (The harder it is to play a piano piece, the more people seem to like it.)


----------



## silverlight7 (May 14, 2018)

gregh said:


> why not try a niche generator process? Sit down and think of as many personality types as you can and see if you think they are genuine market opportunities that fit your skill set. This would be akin to scenario development in user experience design. From matt_e we see that King has a niche in melancholy/depressives. Why not try for over achievers disappointed in personal failure - or highly successful ruthless futures dealers seeking affirmation as they jog etc etc
> This probably sounds cynical - and maybe it is - but if your goal is to make money from music targeted to a specific audience then developing multiple personas and testing their needs against your skills and interests is not a bad way to go about it - ie consider this a design exercise (which in fact it is)



That's not a bad idea. I always like to compose music that is very emotional in some way, so I could find a way to target people who like that sort of music.


----------



## silverlight7 (May 14, 2018)

Rv5 said:


> As @Greg says, YouTube's algorithm is something good to be aware of if you'd like to gain views and subscribers and grow a channel. One of the most crucial aspects of this, certainly more so in recent years, is consistency. I always say content first, for sure, but regular uploads have massive impact on growth and engagement over time. That's why you'll find YouTube channels with millions of views but fewer subscribers (like mine), to those whose videos get thousands of views, yet have far more subscribers.
> 
> YouTube encourages videos that have high engagement in the form of comments and likes. You'll see YouTubers asking questions, 'love to hear your thoughts in the comments below' 'what do you guys think about xyz' 'comment your favourite whatever' etc. While it is genuinely nice to engage with fans, it's also to help that level of channel activity to keep it growing/afloat. Another change in recent years is watch time. In the earlier days of YouTube, there was an issue with clickbaity thumbnails and titles; clicking gave the video views, but once people found they were misled and the video wasn't as advertised, they would down-vote and leave, but the views still counted. This has now changed so YouTube prioritises the watch-time of the videos instead, i.e. the longer someone stays on your video, the better this ranks in YouTube's algorhythms which is what @Greg was saying with the long playlist videos. Ever see YouTuber folk saying they have something in the video to wait for, or have certain sections they always do in the middle or at the end? It's part of the plan to keep you engaged in the videos and up the watch time. This is where engaging content obviously helps - give the viewer a reason to stay.
> 
> ...



Thanks for explaining how Youtube works.

From your description, it seems the best way to succeed with a Youtube channel is to either make covers or tutorials of popular music, or perhaps tutorials related to music in some other way. Once you build a dedicated fanbase, then you can publish some of your original music along with it.

Will PM you with more detailed questions.


----------



## Rv5 (May 14, 2018)

silverlight7 said:


> Thanks for explaining how Youtube works.
> 
> From your description, it seems the best way to succeed with a Youtube channel is to either make covers or tutorials of popular music, or perhaps tutorials related to music in some other way. Once you build a dedicated fanbase, then you can publish some of your original music along with it.
> 
> Will PM you with more detailed questions.



That can work for sure! Covers mean there are obviously existing fans of the music and if you put your own spin on the tracks, can really strike a chord so to speak. My take on covers is I enjoy doing them - as long as I put my own spin on them. I see them as a celebration of the music, it's music that's moved me enough to want to explore it and create my own take on it. Straight up covers for the sake of YouTube views might not be so fulfilling; while it's good to understand the workings of YouTube to give you the best shot at growing a channel, hey even Beethoven was a good businessman, I'd highly recommend doing it for the love of the craft with that being your primary motivator. 

In terms of revenue, it can be great, though I've still not really nailed that aspect of it yet. People see millions of views and assume thousands and thousands of pounds. If it's a cover, you don't own the content. You upload a cover (I clear mechanicals though a licensing company) and YouTube says 'I think this is a cover', so you accept. YouTube takes 50-60% ad revenue, then as I found out through the Game of Thrones covers, the party involved (copyright holders of the track, often publishing/record label) take another 60-70%. So you really aren't left with much. However it's something, and 'exposure' and a platform to push your own music, and then you add iTunes/Streaming revenue, merch etc... it can add up. The big YouTubers make their megabucks through owning all content and regularly hitting hundreds of thousands to millions of views and crazy endorsement deals, product placement, sponsorships, YouTube preferred ad program etc.

For me, the amount of people involved in the big 'Epic rendition' videos mean there's no money made. Take a video like the Doctor Who Cover, weeks and weeks of work and a trip to Germany to record the choir - Ad Revenue over 2+ years is $200 for 430,000 views and about £500 from streaming and iTunes downloads. That about covers everyone's travel to the sessions! Whereas the Rick and Morty Theme I did in an afternoon, all samples, has brought in around £1400 over the same amount of time. Now say I'd done 10 Rick and Morty style tracks, and that's a potential £5-7000 a year coming in. Introduce merch and sponsors etc... well there's potential for a little something. But what else - working with the players and the choir, well now there are awesome new people in my life wanting to take part in more tracks, and the choir is interested in a sampling project 

I don't know why my cover of the Rick and Morty theme has so well on Spotify (main source of income for that one), my guess is it's made its way into a playlist! But the point is - get your stuff out there as you never know! I reached out to Ryan Eldar, the composer of the theme as I couldn't find who I needed to license the track through to cover, and in a follow up email he said it's on of his favourite covers! So those little things are cool too.

Other benefits can come in other ways: I call it YouTube view currency. People respond to lots of views and it's gained me access to spaces and instruments for free/cheap/discounted and I have a huge list of some of the brightest new talent of orchestral players in London, and I love 'em all to bits, and I'm sampling some of them! I've had interest from people like the National Orchestra of Belgium in my arrangements, and we've been invited to play a massive festival later this year. So yes, while this is nice and I suppose validating of the work gone in, it still has to be for the love of it, otherwise I'd have never got that far and I still feel I've only realised 10% of the channels potential. Once it's on YouTube on to the next one, easier said than done, I've been guilty of hitting the refresh button to count views in the first week! But really you have to let go, on to the next one and so on.

More ramblings! But YouTube is a viable way for extra income, exposure, meeting people, doing cool projects, and nice rewards aside from the money, or at least other avenues that support income! It's been worth the effort for me, as I sit again today with my head in hands, my engineer booked for this weekend, and no players, no room and no music confirmed I just take a deep breath, 'here we go again'... As echoed across the forum regarding 'making it' in any vocation is one: be aware of what 'making it' actual is/brings, and two: work hard.

And I've just receive your PM, off for some food and I'll come back to it later!


----------



## silverlight7 (May 14, 2018)

Rv5 said:


> That can work for sure! Covers mean there are obviously existing fans of the music and if you put your own spin on the tracks, can really strike a chord so to speak. My take on covers is I enjoy doing them - as long as I put my own spin on them. I see them as a celebration of the music, it's music that's moved me enough to want to explore it and create my own take on it. Straight up covers for the sake of YouTube views might not be so fulfilling; while it's good to understand the workings of YouTube to give you the best shot at growing a channel, hey even Beethoven was a good businessman, I'd highly recommend doing it for the love of the craft with that being your primary motivator.
> 
> In terms of revenue, it can be great, though I've still not really nailed that aspect of it yet. People see millions of views and assume thousands and thousands of pounds. If it's a cover, you don't own the content. You upload a cover (I clear mechanicals though a licensing company) and YouTube says 'I think this is a cover', so you accept. YouTube takes 50-60% ad revenue, then as I found out through the Game of Thrones covers, the party involved (copyright holders of the track, often publishing/record label) take another 60-70%. So you really aren't left with much. However it's something, and 'exposure' and a platform to push your own music, and then you add iTunes/Streaming revenue, merch etc... it can add up. The big YouTubers make their megabucks through owning all content and regularly hitting hundreds of thousands to millions of views and crazy endorsement deals, product placement, sponsorships, YouTube preferred ad program etc.
> 
> ...



Wow, that's cool how your Youtube covers opened up so many opportunities for you! I guess it just shows that if you pursue what you enjoy, more doors will open as time goes on. Your sampling project could easily bring in a nice bit of revenue as well.

Just watched your "Light of the Seven" cover, and I was quite moved by it, especially considering that I usually don't like epic music. It must have been so exhilarating to work with all those people and record live instruments!


----------

