# Love synths, dislike creating sounds myself. Am I in a minority?



## thousandfold (May 6, 2017)

So, as the title says it all I love synths, but not for reasons of beeing lazy i just enjoy presets and patches made by others. I know the pro's use those, but usually only in certain conditions like beeing in a hurry, time limits etc.

Am I in the wrong mindset that I just enjoy synths and their presets instead of actual making my own unique sounds? I mostly really enjoy what others did already and really don't feel like topping that.


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## Jaap (May 6, 2017)

We are all different in how we work and what we like and not and if it is not limiting in your work, I wouldn't worry too much and carry on with how you are doing it now 
At least it saves you probably many many hours in messing around with sounds and in situations that you suddenly realise that a few hours have passed and you only been messing with one new sound


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## Voider (May 6, 2017)

If there would be no one enjoying presets created by others,
there could be no one enjoying to create presets for others.

So this relationship keeps the business alive and that's a good thing because people can make an income or even a living with it 

And of course it is a legitimate mindset. The process of sound creation can be very time consuming, you can spend many hours just preparing before you even could get start to compose. But some might just want to start right away or just don't have fun with that.

Personally sound design was the first thing I really learned before anything else related to music production, and I highly enjoy it.


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## DocMidi657 (May 6, 2017)

I worked for Ensoniq and Korg as a full time clinician and I remember our service guys telling me at both companies that like 98% of all the keyboards that came in for updates or repairs always had the factory patches un-edited when unboxed.  They would see editing done with layers and splits in the combination mode when the synths came in or some slight tweaks to say the filter of a patch but creating your own unique patches starting from the oscillator level was a very very small minority of the customer base. Not saying it was never done but it was very rare. I traveled for these companies extensively for a number of years all over the US and a little out of the country and I very rarely was asked questions ever regarding "programming your own custom sounds". Like I could count those type questions on my left hand over 9 years. We even came out with a keyboard called the Wavestation which lets you sequence your own waveforms to create very unique sounds and very few did that as well. 

Most musicians called up the presets and created from that point writing their music. The questions were always about using the sequencer, playing live/MIDI controller applications with their other gear or connecting to their computer and wanting to do X. I did get asked often at our clinics if I had any new sounds which back then we would leave discs with new patches at the stores and shows where we did our dog and pony shows. So there was always high interest in aquiring new and fresh sounds but creating their own..not so much.

I wouldn't give it a second thought unless you really want to get into synth programming which is and art and discipline in and of itself and does take time and hard work to get good at imo. My experience has been that most (but not all) composers and players like to spend their time working on their chops or creating melodies chord progressions, arrangements. However I do think as a composer/musician it's not a bad idea to have a basic understanding of the synth architecture to some degree so if you need or get asked to to make a tweak quickly in a live or studio situation you know what you are doing.


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## thousandfold (May 6, 2017)

DocMidi657 said:


> I worked for Ensoniq and Korg as a full time clinician and I remember our service guys telling me at both companies that like 98% of all the keyboards that came in for updates or repairs always had the factory patches un-edited when unboxed.  They would see editing done with layers and splits in the combination mode when the synths came in or some slight tweaks to say the filter of a patch but creating your own unique patches starting from the oscillator level was a very very small minority of the customer base. Not saying it was never done but it was very rare. I traveled for these companies extensively for a number of years all over the US and a little out of the country and I very rarely was asked questions ever regarding "programming your own custom sounds". Like I could count those type questions on my left hand over 9 years. We even came out with a keyboard called the Wavestation which lets you sequence your own waveforms to create very unique sounds and very few did that as well.
> 
> Most musicians called up the presets and created from that point writing their music. The questions were always about using the sequencer, playing live/MIDI controller applications with their other gear or connecting to their computer and wanting to do X. I did get asked often at our clinics if I had any new sounds which back then we would leave discs with new patches at the stores and shows where we did our dog and pony shows. So there was always high interest in aquiring new and fresh sounds but creating their own..not so much.
> 
> I wouldn't give it a second thought unless you really want to get into synth programming which is and art and discipline in and of itself and does take time and hard work to get good at imo. My experience has been that most (but not all) composers and players like to spend their time working on their chops or creating melodies chord progressions, arrangements. However I do think as a composer/musician it's not a bad idea to have a basic understanding of the synth architecture to some degree so if you need or get asked to to make a tweak quickly in a live or studio situation you know what you are doing.



I agree that synth programming is valuable and I really am baffled about those who know so much about it, but it's not that I don't understand it either. Sure, I wouldn't quite know how to make a spciofic sound.. a sound I could afcourse, but even know I can't I do understand it in a logical manner. It makes sense so to speak.

But that I don't wanna learn it isn't even why. I just hear these patches made by for example ''The Unfnished'' or ''Luftrum'' and I just want that.. I fall in love with what they already did. Sometimes it's problematic if a lot of good ones come by and I just wanna use 'em all.. albeit.. that doesn't happen all the time


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## ctsai89 (May 6, 2017)

sound design nowadays isn't just about making a patch of synth sound yourself anymore. There are plenty of presets out there and what's important is how you mix different presets together to create a specific sound. You should be knowledgeable on what each knobs in the synth does though because let's say you found a sound you like but you need the release to be longer to make it sound connected in an arpeggio, well yes you will benefit from knowing how ADSR functions and etc. 

I hate making sounds (starting from a wave form and tweak knobs etc) it just takes too long


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## Voider (May 6, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> sound design nowadays isn't just about making a patch of synth sound yourself anymore. There are plenty of presets out there and what's important is how you mix different presets together to create a specific sound.



Well, as for Dune 2 each of the 8 unison voices can act as single synthesizer with a few but really just few limitations. 
That means you can basically create up to 8 patches in one patch and it automatically is layered then.


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## wst3 (May 6, 2017)

I think you are probably in the majority, and I think that's fine. I happen to enjoy creating sounds, or rather I did when the synthesizers were simpler. I find that quite often I end up spending hours tweaking and twiddling, I enjoy it mind you, but it can be a real time soak!


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## ctsai89 (May 6, 2017)

Voider said:


> Well, as for Dune 2 each of the 8 unison voices can act as single synthesizer with a few but really just few limitations.
> That means you can basically create up to 8 patches in one patch and it automatically is layered then.



I am aware. Omnispjerevis another example However I am not a big fan of it because all 8 patches will have the same MiDI programming. There r a lot more i can do with them separated. It sure 8 patches in 1 MiDI track combined with more pads made from 8 patches etc. Sound design is whatever you want and however you want to do it.


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## CT (May 6, 2017)

I am also a sucker for presets, and you'd better believe that you can spend as much time browsing as programming. Sure, if I'm after something that I can't find even approximately, I can build it from scratch, but most of the time I'm more stimulated by listening to what those with a finer touch than mine have made, and then gleefully repurposing.


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## zacnelson (May 6, 2017)

I'm definitely in the preset camp! Although I don't think it makes my life quicker, as I spend hours browsing and it's tiring and depressing, I know I could never do as good a job as people who have immersed themselves in the art of creating presets.


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## JPQ (May 6, 2017)

I more composer but still want learn all parts of process hardest is mixing even more when i slowly must learn mix libs in what are recorded different places.


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## Norbz (May 6, 2017)

Some like to dig for gold manually, others use a pan, others like to use a shovel, others like to build shovels, all are needed for the process to continue. Nothing wrong with presets and nothing wrong with starting from scratch either. I think you're in the majority. I think most use presets then fiddle with them a little bit and call it their own, and it's not hard to do nowadays with one or two knob tweaks on a good synth.


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## Chandler (May 6, 2017)

I think its pretty common to only use presets. People on message boards for synths are most likely the power users and not really indicative of the real user base. Besides don't feel bad for using presets, I'm sure even preset designers use others presets sometimes.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 6, 2017)

I usually start with a preset and tweak it to my needs. Most of the time, I wouldn't want to sit around creating sounds from scratch, because it's almost like a whole other discipline, which I'm actually not here for.

I drive a car, but I'm not super into screwing and tinkering around on it. Some people are totally into that. I think with synths, it's similar.


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## Voider (May 7, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> I am aware. Omnispjerevis another example However I am not a big fan of it because all 8 patches will have the same MiDI programming.



Not necessarily, you can deactive and activate each voice. So if you move to your 3 layer pad and find that you want the bottom layer to play different midi, you can deactivate voice 1, open up the same patch a second time in a duplicate of the synth and there only activate voice 1. So you can disassemble any layered patch into its components to use them separate quickly  

But if you want just a pad with a specific sound that is not achievable without layering, then you can have it all in one patch with this method. Another advantage is that all 8 layers can share the same mod matrix, LFOs, MSEGs and SFX sections so that saves tons of time.


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## Markus Kohlprath (May 7, 2017)

One issue I come up with usually when browsing presets is that very often they are way to heavy and complicated soundwise overburdened with fx and so on. So most of the time I have to thin them out to make them useable in the context of an already crowded mix of different orchestral instruments, keys, plugged,percussion. 
Sometimes I just want a little colour in a specific frequency, tone colour range or something that fills out the soundpallette- just adds a little something but not recognized in the forefront. 
So although I know that it would be helpful to know how to build exactly what I want from scratch I also do not want to sit there for hours to learn to do so and come up with a probably mediocre result. There are so much other things to do as a composer.
What I would appreciate from developers of presets to provide would be something like a toolset of more or less simpler sounds that dont occupy that much the whole frequency and stereo field- sometimes maybe even mono (e.g.bass)- that can be used as addition to already existing sounds. 
I don't know if this makes sense to anyone else and maybe there will be a time when I realize that I should go the diy route myself but maybe such a toolset thing could also be done or it exists and I didn't find it until now.


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## Voider (May 7, 2017)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> So although I know that it would be helpful to know how to build exactly what I want from scratch I also do not want to sit there for hours to learn to do so and come up with a probably mediocre result.



Just to keep expectations realistic, more like months than hours  I can of course not speak for everyone, but from my experience I'd say after at least 6 months of continious weekly practice one can expect the first results that are better than mediocre. It in the end surely comes down to what you want and how complex it is. But synthesizers with modmatrix and MSEGs (multi stage envelope generators) are so complex nowadays that it is a really deep field to study. And even if you synthesized the hell out of pads for months, and then you suddenly want to create a drum sequence you'll find out, that drum synthesis is completely different, or to imitate an acoustic plucked instrument requires very detailed techniques. The most important thing is to stick to one and only one synthesizer. Not two, not three, but only one that becomes home.


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## SymphonicSamples (May 7, 2017)

Synths presets are like food to me. Sometimes I'm so hungry and don't have time so I'll get a feed of MacDonald's and ultimately regret eating it hours later. Then there are some great soundsets for synths out there like going out to a good restaurant for dinner, sometime tastes amazing , sometimes not so. And then these cooking it yourself. The type of cuisine you want , like the brand of synth (hardware) or vst. Then picking the what meat I want , like which type of Oscillator(s) I want, and then all the other ingredient that go into making the final dish and some effects for desert. All good for different situations, but most often than not I like to cook my own in my spare time, which certainly doesn't mean it will sound better than some of the great presets you can buy, but once you learn how to cook various dishes from different cultures it can start to get interesting  All that being said , I had Pizza tonight and feel rather full


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## Parsifal666 (May 7, 2017)

thousandfold said:


> So, as the title says it all I love synths, but not for reasons of beeing lazy i just enjoy presets and patches made by others. I know the pro's use those, but usually only in certain conditions like beeing in a hurry, time limits etc.
> 
> Am I in the wrong mindset that I just enjoy synths and their presets instead of actual making my own unique sounds? I mostly really enjoy what others did already and really don't feel like topping that.



If you're not interested in fully expressing yourself on the synth (or any other instrument) that's fine. You can at best find sounds analogous. Nothing wrong with that, presets can be immensely inspiring. It just depends on how personal you want to get in music.

For me, sound design affords me great opportunities to find and then employ the sounds that most reflect* my *inner world: feelings, experiences, hopes, angst. And that's what important to me. I look to give voice to my inner experience, and I don't care how pretentious that might sound.

Do what you feel most represents your vision, whether you want to make an indelible imprint on the die of time or simply want to rock out and have fun on your own, whatever you like is good!

Look inside and your goals will write themselves in my humble opinion. Don't worry about what others think about what you want, because they're just shooting in the dark. All they can truly know is themselves. Know what _you_ want.


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## Kent (May 7, 2017)

Some of the best pop music used synth presets with little-to-no modification - the D-50's preset banks in particular defined the sound of hit radio from about 1987-1990 (and also defined the first four or so seasons of Star Trek: TNG, which not coincidentally happened in the same time frame). The use of presets certainly "dates" the sound, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily a bad thing. Doesn't sound cheesy, just late-80s (which isn't as much of an oxymoron as it seems).


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## wst3 (May 7, 2017)

As someone pointed out, it takes time to learn any synthesizer! As they become more capable (read complex) the time increases. The last synthesizer I invested time into was Camel Audio Alchemy, and I still use it, and I'm still learning new tricks! I expect that were I to purchase and of the u-he synths I'd fall into the same rabbit warren<G>!

I think (just a guess) that I benefited greatly from "learning" synthesis on a simple subtractive synthesizer or two, in my case the ARP 2600 and Korg MS-20. It provides a minimal framework from which I can figure out other synthesizers.

I can't recommend highly enough two really good resources:
Rob Papen - The Four Element Synth
Simon Cann - an entire series of books on various synthesis methods

There are countless web sites on the topic too, but I don't know any I'd recommend before these books.


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## Parsifal666 (May 7, 2017)

wst3 said:


> As someone pointed out, it takes time to learn any synthesizer! As they become more capable (read complex) the time increases. The last synthesizer I invested time into was Camel Audio Alchemy, and I still use it, and I'm still learning new tricks!



I have the Classic Alchemy and have gotten so much out of it. The Junkie XL and Stockhausen presets were pretty extraordinary imo, Richard Devine. I ended up back-programming from several of those presets, learning how they put them together, before embarking on my own sound design journeys.


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## sostenuto (May 7, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I have the Classic Alchemy and have gotten so much out of it. The Junkie XL and Stockhausen presets were pretty extraordinary imo, Richard Devine. I ended up back-programming from several of those presets, learning how they put them together, before embarking on my own sound design journeys.



Yep ... Win10 Pro user and really frustrated Camel Classic Alchemy is iOS only! Guess there was limited Win version availability but now gone. Sad ! 

Have had Omni/Omni2 for many years and enjoy immensely. Have been reinvigorated recently as so many great 3rd party expansions continue. PlugInGuru has added a terrific value dimension with his many videos delving into Omni capabilities in so many creative ways .... now a drum machine _par excellence_ ....


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## thousandfold (May 7, 2017)

Ah well all these replies warm my heart. Maybe if i'm in a more comfortable time period and got more freedom to mess around I would, but (even though that's not the main reason I don't like to figure my own synth sound out) for now I am not bored with the great stuff others made.


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## dgburns (May 7, 2017)

thousandfold said:


> Ah well all these replies warm my heart. Maybe if i'm in a more comfortable time period and got more freedom to mess around I would, but (even though that's not the main reason I don't like to figure my own synth sound out) for now I am not bored with the great stuff others made.



I might poo poo on the presets philosophy. here's why-

I kind of see presets as mini compositions, especially the more animated ones. Obviously the useage depends on the context, but using a preset means going down the menu diving rabbit hole. To me, that means no longer thinking creatively and becoming a hunter/gatherer of sorts. Hey, if you have an idea in mind of the sound you want and stumble across it, YAY! ,eureka, punch it in and move on. But I feel some part of my writing falls down a notch if I give in to any given factory preset because it kinda sorta works.
Omnisphere is a big exception to this, again for me, because I go to it to try and find something already there, like some atmospheric sound designy texture.
The moog stuff really opened my eyes to the posibilities of farting around with the knobs. With moogs, I tend to think ahead of time what sound I'm trying to get to, and usually start with a previous sound I made that got close. I've found that I got to the place I wanted to usually under 5 min and that makes me happy. Menu diving, even with smart tag navigation never seems to return the result that satisfies quite as much. But maybe I'm just not that good at searching. It's true that some synths are just too complex to always be trying to make a sound from scratch, but it is really worth trying at least once in a while.
Of course, if you get inspired by a preset and go ahead and write something great, well I guess that's valid too.

-edit-
I've had great results using the randomize feature in Absynth, it returns some freaky alterations, even though I didn't "program" the synth, many of my stored fav's came from that randomize button.


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## Voider (May 7, 2017)

dgburns said:


> I kind of see presets as mini compositions, especially the more animated ones. Obviously the useage depends on the context, but using a preset means going down the menu diving rabbit hole. To me, that means no longer thinking creatively and becoming a hunter/gatherer of sorts.



Which only applies for the sound itself, not the whole composition. Imagine any classical orchestrator saying that using the old fashioned instruments like celli, violas and basses would kill his creativity. You can express creativity with the composition itself, it doesn't have to be the instruments it is played on.

That being said, people that don't do patchdesign may be able to layer different patches and post process them to their likings, which is still a creative sound design process, even if it's a different and more limitated approach.


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## dgburns (May 7, 2017)

Voider said:


> Which only applies for the sound itself, not the whole composition. Imagine any classical orchestrator saying that using the old fashioned instruments like celli, violas and basses would kill his creativity. You can express creativity with the composition itself, it doesn't have to be the instruments it is played on.
> 
> That being said, people that don't do patchdesign may be able to layer different patches and post process them to their likings, which is still a creative sound design process, even if it's a different and more limitated approach.



I'm referring to those one finger wonder patches, obviously not the simple sounds that allow you to play notes like any other instrument.


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## Parsifal666 (May 7, 2017)

Voider said:


> Which only applies for the sound itself, not the whole composition. Imagine any classical orchestrator saying that using the old fashioned instruments like celli, violas and basses would kill his creativity. You can express creativity with the composition itself, it doesn't have to be the instruments it is played on.
> 
> That being said, people that don't do patchdesign may be able to layer different patches and post process them to their likings, which is still a creative sound design process, even if it's a different and more limitated approach.



Well put! Think of a person using a very well used string ostinato pattern from a library (all kinds of good composers do this btw), but layering it with contrapuntal orchestration, pulses, percussion, pads, etc. It's the context they're used in. You could even say that for chord progressions, which in the case of much Popular music have been around since before the 50s. You can use them all you want, no one will cry foul.

However, it could be argued by silly radicalists that any sampling/preset mongering is the sign of a bereft imagination, lack of musical skill, etc. These days we don't see that being bandied about as much, but it persists. Yet sampling and preset-wizard forge forward, and I consider both hugely positive time savers for the hardcore, full time composer. And a source of at times great inspiration, at least for me. If I need to get something done in a hurry, and I remember a freaky great pulse preset from, say, Gladiator, I'm probably going to use it in a fairly unadulterated form. When it comes to non-commission music, the work I truly care about and slave over, I'm calling all the sound shots. Because that's dealing in my own, unique musical personality.

I remember first buying Z3ta from Cakewalk and falling in love so much with the default preset that I immediately wrote a whole piece with it. Something in me just couldn't let me leave it with that preset. Maybe immediate recognizability, and/or feeling like I was "cheating"...in hindsight I wonder whether I was right to nix it with the preset (I ended up still getting good music from what was left).


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## synthpunk (May 7, 2017)

My teacher many moons ago...











wst3 said:


> As someone pointed out, it takes time to learn any synthesizer! As they become more capable (read complex) the time increases. The last synthesizer I invested time into was Camel Audio Alchemy, and I still use it, and I'm still learning new tricks! I expect that were I to purchase and of the u-he synths I'd fall into the same rabbit warren<G>!
> 
> I think (just a guess) that I benefited greatly from "learning" synthesis on a simple subtractive synthesizer or two, in my case the ARP 2600 and Korg MS-20. It provides a minimal framework from which I can figure out other synthesizers.
> 
> ...


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## KEnK (May 7, 2017)

dgburns said:


> ...using a preset means going down the menu diving rabbit hole. To me, that means no longer thinking creatively and becoming a hunter/gatherer of sorts...
> ...But I feel some part of my writing falls down a notch if I give in to any given factory preset because it kinda sorta works...
> ...The moog stuff really opened my eyes to the posibilities of farting around with the knobs. With moogs, I tend to think ahead of time what sound I'm trying to get to, and usually start with a previous sound I made that got close. I've found that I got to the place I wanted to usually under 5 min and that makes me happy.


Ah! Finally in this thread I find a kindred spirit.
I'm in one way surprised by the amount of preset use- but then again, maybe that has everything to do w/ why I've become so uninterested in synth music.

This thread actually makes me glad I'm nearly 60. 
The 1st synths on my block were before presets!
Moog Sonic 6 (and the Mini), Arp Odyssey, The EMS Suitcase thing, a couple a' Korgs (w/ real patch cables!)
So - we had to learn to use them- and fast if you were gigging.
My synth inspirations were Subotnik, Carlos, Tomita and peope of that ilk.
So I guess I've always looked at it as principally a sound creation tool- tones being as personal as melodies.

I almost never even listen to presets for either synths or fx-
but I have opened a few of them to study the architecture of synths w/ non-real world UIs.
But not for the sounds.

Like DG, I think about the sound I want, and dial it in.
There are occasions when I have time for programming-and I usually do a bunch then-
but it almost never takes a lot of time to dial something in on the fly.

Not meaning to be antagonistic here- just very surprised.
carry on then...

k


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## wst3 (May 7, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> My teacher many moons ago...



Ah yes, still have my copy around here somewhere, no I need to go find it!


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## synthpunk (May 7, 2017)

Bill, and others, It is OOP now but you can grab a PDF, I have posted a link in this thread...
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/synthesizer-programming-resources.61892/




wst3 said:


> Ah yes, still have my copy around here somewhere, no I need to go find it!


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