# If your DAW went Subcription....



## José Herring (Jan 31, 2021)

....Would you jump to another DAW if your DAW went subscription. 

I've always been a 2 DAW user. Cubase+Reason. Reason then dropped Rewire and is now standalone and a plugin rack. 
Reason Studios just announced that they are going subscription and while they still offer Reason full licenses the writing is on the wall as far as I can see. Just head over to the Reason Studios shop and you have to scroll and hunt to find the old Reason shop were you can by their plugins and program outright. The subscription model is in your face. 

While it's only $20/month I really can't stand the idea of paying monthly or yearly to get full access. In the end, for the fist time in nearly 20 years, I'm considering jumping ship. 

What would you do if one of your DAWS of choice ended up going subscription? Would you stick to it or jump ship?


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## mybadmemory (Jan 31, 2021)

I really like subscription models. Lowers the barrier of entry, and I can leave at any time. I wish all libraries were subscription model so we could try them out for a month without having to pay the full price for things that only get used once. Sure, the ones you actually use MIGHT end up costing more after a couple of years, but subscription models often also come with the added benefit of more regular updates and additions to keep people subscribing.

Would I like to start subscribing to something I had already payed full price for in the past? Hmm. No. But I’d happily start subscribing to something instead of paying 20x up front. If I end up using if for so long that it actually surpasses the full price I’m probably happy with it and gladly continue to support the devs. If I don’t use it I’ll just cancel after a few months and have saved a lot!


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## DCPImages (Jan 31, 2021)

I would dump it immediately. There are plenty of alternatives.


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## jcrosby (Jan 31, 2021)

Oof that's a tough one. I'm old. I'm stubborn. Changing DAWs would be a bitch. And while I'm also a 2 DAW kind of guys (Live and logic), Live doesn't hold a candle to Logic when it comes to working with orchestra and big templates... Live's great for smaller projects, and sound design but I'd never rely on it for anything like a 200-300 track template. (I've tried and it's painful.) It's good for pattern-based music, but I don't do as much of that these days so I need a workhorse like Logic 8 out of 10 times.

But because I'm stubborn that makes me a curmudgeon in which case I'd probably follow my knee jerk reaction, fight my way through learning a new DAW, and dump the old one. (Studio One's always been in the back of my mind if this scenario played out with Logic)...

I personally think subscriptions are bullshit. They are fine if you leave the option to buy in place. However if you take the option to buy away they're solely for the benefit of the CEO with no guarantees of better development...

Barrier of entry? Sure I get that... But the DAW is my main tool. Sure it's a hobby for some but for me it isn't. I don't see someone like an independent woodworker leasing a bunch of tools they already own if the ones they have still work, and work well... And like computers, I don't see the average user favoring a computer rental model when you have the mess that can be software licenses.. Like a computer, I don't ever plan on renting one either...

So sure the option's fine if the ability to buy doesn't disappear. But the flip side of that of that is that it also gives any company run by a _numbers_ _guy_ an incentive to ditch the sales model altogether if the rental model proves to be more lucrative.

Related: I'm curious (and fearful) to see how the shakeup at NI plays out.


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## thorwald (Jan 31, 2021)

No, because Reaper will never become subscription-based. ☺️

What Cockos does is seriously amazing.


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## GtrString (Jan 31, 2021)

I would ditch Studio One if they went subscription only, yes. No matter how much I like it, I would never get peace of mind if I had to worry about the next payment. I try to rely less on banks, not more. Even if I prefer one, Im confident I could be happy with another daw too. There is not that much between them.


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## ThomasL (Jan 31, 2021)

Well, this is (I guess) from "the other side". I already subscribe to my house, insurance, car insurance to name a few so why not a DAW? Oh, I do that as well, Studio One. 

And yes, I'm old, AND stubborn but changed DAW a few years back, from Logic to Studio One and it would be something very odd to get me to change again.

I think $20 for a single DAW is a bit too much though.


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## DANIELE (Jan 31, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> I really like subscription models. Lowers the barrier of entry, and I can leave at any time. I wish all libraries were subscription model so we could try them out for a month without having to pay the full price for things that only get used once. Sure, the ones you actually use MIGHT end up costing more after a couple of years, but subscription models often also come with the added benefit of more regular updates and additions to keep people subscribing.
> 
> Would I like to start subscribing to something I had already payed full price for in the past? Hmm. No. But I’d happily start subscribing to something instead of paying 20x up front. If I end up using if for so long that it actually surpasses the full price I’m probably happy with it and gladly continue to support the devs. If I don’t use it I’ll just cancel after a few months and have saved a lot!


You are taking out hobbyists, for almost everything hobby related a soubscription model is a kill, especially for a DAW. I love to make music but I have no income from it and think of paying something I use once in a while every month is not the right way for me.
The best choice would be to offer both the payment models, retail and subscription.

Luckily I use Reaper and I'm good with it.


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## Banquet (Jan 31, 2021)

I'm a Cubase Pro user, and if Steinberg went subscription I'd use another DAW. I hate subscription models. EVERYBODY wants a piece of my monthly income to rent me some software that up-until then I could have owned. Now some things (like Cubase) I do upgrade and that has a yearly cost... but I get to decide if and when. For years I was on the Adobe subscription. £50 a month for everything but all I wanted was photoshop, Lightroom and Premiere. Over 3 years I worked out I'd made 21 videos, so each video had cost me £70 (after taking out the Photoshop £9 part) and in the last year I'd made only 3 videos, costing a whopping £164 each. I couldn't justify that so I reduced my sub to the £9 for photoshop and bought Final Cut Pro for £200. With that I get all updates for free and no future payments. But I'd spent 3 years learning Premiere, paid a about £1500 and now can't use it, can't open previous projects... £1500 down the drain. I would never do a subscription model again.

I also think subscriptions make developers lazy, because they are already getting your money and don't need updates to be quite so full of features. Sure, people may unsubscribe if continuous updates are really poor, but for the most part, the money is already in the bank so the pressure is off. For all my £50 a month payments to Adobe, I'd experienced some really rage inducing bugs in Premiere, whereas Fincal Cut Pro works really well for me.

That being said, I really like rent to own. They seem like the way forward to me.


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## José Herring (Jan 31, 2021)

Well I can hold on to my Reason 11 licenses for a while. I have Reason Suite which they've now discontinued. No more suite of plugins so it will be the choice of sticking to the basic Reason or getting the subcription in the future. As much as it pains me, I've decided to go on a long journey to replace all the synths and plugins I've grown to rely on in Reason. I mean it won't be that hard as I've probably already done that over the years with VST plugins, but still Reason was so much of my life for so long. 

There's a few things in the Reason Rack that will be hard to replace. Sweeper for instance but I think I'll hold on to my licenses just for those few things that I can't replace. 

On the bright side of things though it will be fun and a new adventure to explore newer options. I think I'll finally just go all in on VST now that I won't have Reason in the future. Padshop in Cubase makes an excellent replacement for Reason's Grain. Now looking for some good wavetable stuff that's not Serum. 

But, I will say by for now to Reason. I also feel a little guilty. I convinced a few people to buy into it and now the company is pretty much going off its rockers with a new owner and the original vision of Reason in jeopardy.


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## doctoremmet (Jan 31, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Now looking for some good wavetable stuff that's not Serum.


Vital!


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## jonathanwright (Feb 1, 2021)

Ah, but what if the DAW you move to also goes subscription?


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## MartinH. (Feb 1, 2021)

José Herring said:


> ....Would you jump to another DAW if your DAW went subscription.
> 
> I've always been a 2 DAW user. Cubase+Reason. Reason then dropped Rewire and is now standalone and a plugin rack.
> Reason Studios just announced that they are going subscription and while they still offer Reason full licenses the writing is on the wall as far as I can see. Just head over to the Reason Studios shop and you have to scroll and hunt to find the old Reason shop were you can by their plugins and program outright. The subscription model is in your face.
> ...


I use Reaper, they'd never do this to us. If they did, I'd just stop updating and keep using the old version that isn't subscription. I haven't updated it in over 2 years anyway, and stuff on windows doesn't just suddenly get incompatible like it does on mac. I'm still using an over a decade old version of the MP3 player Winamp - originally made by the same guy who started Reaper.




José Herring said:


> On the bright side of things though it will be fun and a new adventure to explore newer options. I think I'll finally just go all in on VST now that I won't have Reason in the future. Padshop in Cubase makes an excellent replacement for Reason's Grain. Now looking for some good wavetable stuff that's not Serum.
> 
> But, I will say by for now to Reason. I also feel a little guilty. I convinced a few people to buy into it and now the company is pretty much going off its rockers with a new owner and the original vision of Reason in jeopardy.


Don't feel guilty, you couldn't have known! But this change really sucks for all Reason users, I'm pretty glad I never got invested. I have a license of their cheapest whatever thing it was that you can load as a vst plugin in other DAWs, and I never used it once because the way it's online DRM was set up rubbed me the wrong way. Seems like that was a good call.


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## José Herring (Feb 1, 2021)

Part of me now is just wondering if I'm just pissed at the company and that's affecting my decision to jump ship. For example there are some sample devs I just won't buy from because I hate their business. Others it's taken me years if not a decade to just warm up to them. 

This is the same way. I could use Reason 11 for a decade no problem. Part of me is just like screw it. The company done pissed me off and they need to earn my business back before I decide to put another dime in upgrades and certainly ain't going to put a penny into a damn subscription. F'em. Which is another synth I should look into to replace Reason's utter lack of ability to produce a good FM synth.


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## Subliminal (Feb 1, 2021)

It concerns me that Presonus seem to be dipping their toes in the water with Sphere. If they forced S1 users to go subscription I'd definitely move, either back to Cubase or onto Reaper. I'm not wealthy and I need to have confidence that I'm still going to have access in the future. Luckily I bought Adobe CS just before they went sub. I definitely wouldnt have been able to justify that subscription year on year given that (as with my music) I am not using it commercially.


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## Crowe (Feb 1, 2021)

If the Subscription model is like Composer Cloud, I don't mind overly much.

But if it's my only valid choice, I will drop it immediately, no questions asked. I will *never* take a subscription on a DAW. Perpetual licenses are the only valid choice for me.


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## José Herring (Feb 1, 2021)

On a less gloomy note, Vital is turning out to be the best wavetable I've ever used. Damn thing is so fun and straight foward yet powerful. This is going to be fun finding alternatives to Reason's stuff. 

I don't mind paying $80 for it.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 1, 2021)

Shopping list:

- wavetable: Vital

- FM: you already have MSoundFactory which has an excellent 8 operator FM engine, but a dedicated one could be Tracktion’s F’ Em. But sometimes 4 op FM hits the sweetspot. I’ve just gotten Opzilla which does a very decent job

- analog: tons and tons of options of course. For cool yet extremely affordable emulations, keep an eye out for Cherry Audio. They’ll release a new one today, and for 25 bucks, each of their synths really shines

- modular: MSF is DEEP. For a true Eurorack feel, there’s Reaktor which you likely own if you have Komplete. Toybox Nano is a great investment if you want to build your own racks

Edit:
Also: Thread 'Phase Plant + 3 Banks by Kilohearts For $99 @APD'


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## AudioLoco (Feb 1, 2021)

If Cubase went subscription I would be pissed off but they kind of hold me by my ...ears(?)... 
as switching DAW after many years is not thinkable for me... 
I really hope they won't, I loath it.

I don't accept to owe money in order to be able to work.

Having the thought of HAVING to pay a rent on my work tools with a risk of not having access to those: 
if I have problems with money one month (could happen to everyone), or there is a tech problem with the company server and authorizations are blocked even if you payed. 

What if the company goes bust and the servers cease to work? 

In case of synth and libraries If I used a sound only on one project and I need to re open it a few years later, do I need to subscribe again to open the project for 5 minutes, would those syhths/libs even be still available? 

Also I like keeping my main computer off line most of the time - I would be forced to stay online all the time, making my computer vulnerable etc.

What if ALL software went sub? Our DAWs, every single plugin, utility software?!
We would be inundated with so many bills every month we could swim in them. Think about it! Hundreds of dollars every month to be able to work!

Every company that goes 100% sub will be ditched by me. 
If Steinberg goes there at one point... I will need to take a big breath and think.


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## Alex Fraser (Feb 1, 2021)

It's a slippery slope and not something I want to entertain very much.
But seeing as the OP asked...

..if Logic went subscription? I don't know. I'd have to think very carefully. Leaving would be hard. Years of learning would be blown to dust if I left. Logic is already "all in", so Apple would have to start adding more cherries if it turned it into a subscription. 

Fortunately, out of all the DAWs, IMO Logic is the least likely to turn to a sub as it's really a driver for Mac sales.


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## Harry (Feb 1, 2021)

Cubase's annual updates (150 EUR) feels like a subscription anyway. You can always say No to the update, but you'll pay for it anyway whenever you need to upgrade.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Feb 1, 2021)

I found an usable alternative to Photoshop (after some years of Adobe subscription) and no DAW is anywhere near that market position. 
I won't hesitate a single second to change to something else.


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## MartinH. (Feb 1, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> Every company that goes 100% sub will be ditched by me.



It's the only good way forward imho. If everyone agreed on that, we wouldn't have subs anymore in the first place, because everyone who tried would have went bust instead of increasing their revenue. The big companies can be trusted to do whatever makes them the most money.


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## TomislavEP (Feb 1, 2021)

I really hope that the team behind REAPER won't go this way in the future. Before embracing it as my main DAW, I was a Pro Tools user for many years. The introduction of yearly plans was one of the many reasons why I made the switch. Also (IIRC) the minor PT updates in-between the major versions were free before. But regardless of the licencing and maintenance costs, I must say that I'm finding REAPER much more flexible and powerful in comparison to the "bigger" names in DAW world (though I also have to admit to having a limited experience with something other than REAPER and Pro Tools).


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## KarlHeinz (Feb 1, 2021)

I am absolutely p....... that reason so short after all this "Reason Suite" marketing hype (that get me trapped cause of the players included) now changes to subscription which in a way makes the Suite buy kind of worthless.

I really hope Mixcraft will stay away from this.

It seems there is no way to avoid on the long term (for example ALL this new ai generation sites only offer subscription, same with online mastering and so on....) but as a Hobby musician it would really make me thing about my Hobby again (or get my guitar back from the attic and back on the street again without any subscription needed - but maybe there will be subscription for guitar strings someday, sigh.....).


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## LudovicVDP (Feb 1, 2021)

Harry said:


> Cubase's annual updates (150 EUR) feels like a subscription anyway. You can always say No to the update, but you'll pay for it anyway whenever you need to upgrade.


I came to say this as well...

But at least you can chose when to pay (or not...)


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## doctoremmet (Feb 1, 2021)

LudovicVDP said:


> I came to say this as well...
> 
> But at least you can chose when to pay (or not...)


And they do have sales on those updates too


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## LudovicVDP (Feb 1, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> And they do have sales on those updates too


Haha. I'm actually waiting for one to upgrade to 11.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Feb 1, 2021)

Shiirai said:


> If the Subscription model is like Composer Cloud, I don't mind overly much.
> 
> But if it's my only valid choice, I will drop it immediately, no questions asked. I will *never* take a subscription on a DAW. Perpetual licenses are the only valid choice for me.


This is the heart of the question. Most musicians don't mind Composer Cloud, because EastWest presents CC as just an option. From that perspective it's a positive and not a negative. Or at least a "who cares?"

A company needs to be very careful how they communicate with their customer base when they announce something like this if they want to hold onto its existing customer base. And Reason blew this in a phenomenal way.

1) If the website stayed the same as before and it was as easy to buy things as it was before.
2) If Reason made a commitment that they will NEVER phase out ownership.
3) If Reason+ was presented as a bonus like Composer Cloud--if you want it, get it, if you don't, then don't.
4) Their introductory video was clueless--it assumed that the user base would automatically see this as the greatest thing.

I think if they did the above, they wouldn't have had the extremely hostile response they have received.

You need to know what your company is. Photoshop is my only graphic design program and I use it daily. I do the math and the subscription is something I don't like but something I can live with. Reason is not my primary DAW. I don't use it much. It's very easy to walk away from.

Maybe they have factored in the idea that a lot of their customers will leave. Maybe the business is in such trouble they have no choice.


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## JEPA (Feb 1, 2021)

Jump ship.


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## easyrider (Feb 1, 2021)

José Herring said:


> ....Would you jump to another DAW if your DAW went subscription.
> 
> I've always been a 2 DAW user. Cubase+Reason. Reason then dropped Rewire and is now standalone and a plugin rack.
> Reason Studios just announced that they are going subscription and while they still offer Reason full licenses the writing is on the wall as far as I can see. Just head over to the Reason Studios shop and you have to scroll and hunt to find the old Reason shop were you can by their plugins and program outright. The subscription model is in your face.
> ...


Reason are not removing perpetual licences....the hype on this is getting tired now....


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## doctoremmet (Feb 1, 2021)

LudovicVDP said:


> Haha. I'm actually waiting for one to upgrade to 11.


You can buy them and kind of stock them for the next update to arrive, and I believe even the one after that one... there are entire dedicated threads on that “trick”


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## Crowe (Feb 1, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Reason are not removing perpetual licences....the hype on this is getting tired now....


They removed the Suite. That's basically a deathblow and means I can't trust them to not remove the standard licenses at some point as well.

That's what it's about. Trust. It's gone now.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Feb 1, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Reason are not removing perpetual licences....the hype on this is getting tired now....


Well, they did cancel Suite (of course, who would subscribe having that) but specially they cancelled Intro (too cheap, nobody would subscribe if that is enough).
Presonus for example did not cancel their Artist version, although they have Sphere.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 1, 2021)

Shiirai said:


> They removed the Suite. That's basically a deathblow and means I can't trust them to not remove the standard licenses at some point as well.
> 
> That's what it's about. Trust. It's gone now.


This. And the whole “what’s all the fuzz about... you can still use your perpetual license” communication plan. Yuk. 

Yeah. No.

(Not even mentioning the “this is good for the starters out there”. BS. They have had rent-to-own for YEARS, which basically means a subscription that STOPS when you’ve paid in full) *)

*) edit: I have been told this is not true and has only been around for Refills and REs. So I stand corrected. Somewhat haha.


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## Crowe (Feb 1, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> (Not even mentioning the “this is good for the starters out there”. BS. They have had rent-to-own for YEARS, which basically means a subscription that STOPS when you’ve paid in full)



I hadn't even thought of that. That makes the whole thing even more pathethic.


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## Buz (Feb 1, 2021)

Probably wouldn't jump ship but I just wouldn't be interested in upgrading.

Then in 5 years when compatibility issues start appearing the market will look different anyway.


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## IFM (Feb 1, 2021)

I'm really tired of all the subscription models as well and won't be updating Reason because of this. The #1 reason I dislike so many of these is if the subscription ends, you lose access. At that point, I'd just go back to Logic full time. Hopefully if any of these companies. ProTools is doing this and they are trying really hard to stop the perpetual licenses.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 1, 2021)

I’m a happy Ableton user. They update approximately every two to three years. Maybe not great for hardcore piano roll tweaking madness (which is why I also have Cubase), but feature-wise very complete and a well thought out package.

I also like what I see in Reaper- and Bitwig “land”, and have my eye on Tracktion’s Waveform too. But as a hobbyist I do realize I can afford to make ‘risky’ transitions from one to the other. Stakes are way lower of course...


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## Markrs (Feb 1, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> You can buy them and kind of stock them for the next update to arrive, and I believe even the one after that one... there are entire dedicated threads on that “trick”


I will probably do this with the next sale, as I am using Reaper at the moment so don't need to update to Cubase 11 but can save the half price upgrade for a future version.


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## easyrider (Feb 1, 2021)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Well, they did cancel Suite (of course, who would subscribe having that) but specially they cancelled Intro (too cheap, nobody would subscribe if that is enough).
> Presonus for example did not cancel their Artist version, although they have Sphere.


There is no doubt they want to promote the subscription...but they were open with me when I contacted support and told me to buy suite from a third party seller and it would be fully supported in the future....

You have two options if you want Reason, you subscribe or you buy it...

The whole Marketing of the subscription has been a disaster though...they should have waited until V12 then released the subscription.....


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## easyrider (Feb 1, 2021)

IFM said:


> I'm really tired of all the subscription models as well and won't be updating Reason because of this. The #1 reason I dislike so many of these is if the subscription ends, you lose access. At that point, I'd just go back to Logic full time. Hopefully if any of these companies. ProTools is doing this and they are trying really hard to stop the perpetual licenses.


Why wouldn’t you update Reason? Would you have updated it if they hadn’t offered a sub alongside?


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## Markrs (Feb 1, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I’m a happy Ableton user. They update approximately every two to three years. Maybe not great for hardcore piano roll tweaking madness (which is why I also have Cubase), but feature-wise very complete and a well thought out package.
> 
> I also like what I see in Reaper- and Bitwig “land”, and have my eye on Tracktion’s Waveform too. But as a hobbyist I do realize I can afford to make ‘risky’ transitions from one to the other. Stakes are way lower of course...


Bitwig looks good, especially for synth/sound, but the yearly subs to get updates looks pricey to me.


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## easyrider (Feb 1, 2021)

Shiirai said:


> I hadn't even thought of that. That makes the whole thing even more pathethic.


They never offered Rent to own on Reason only the REs and you Can still rent to own REs


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## easyrider (Feb 1, 2021)

I’m not moving from Studio one...updates are free and regular in between major versions. Support is top notch and the workflow great....Cubase charging for incremental updates is BS and that e-licenser is stuck in the dark ages...

I‘ll happily use Reason as a VST in studio one as thats main reason I bought it...

What amazes me is the Cubase updates are broken and people reverting back to older versions to maintain stability is just a joke....Steinberg do my head in....


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## zvenx (Feb 1, 2021)

I have had more or less two DAWS in my professional life... first Opcode EZ Vizion.Vision, Studio Vision Pro then Cubendo.
Took me years to be able to work with my DAW without thinking, using muscle memory. I actually don't think I can use Cubendo as effeciently as I can Studio Vision Pro still some almost 20 years later.

I bought Studio One a few years ago, just in case Steinberg Pisses me off completely for the last time... They haven't thus far, but I find Studio One Pro for obvious reasons the most Cubendo like. I can use it without reading the manual.

I am devoutly Anti Subscription... For me it would be a dealbreaker.

So I would either stick at whatever version Cubendo is at that time until I can't anymore and if somehow Presonus managed to convince me that they would never go subscription I might eventually switch.

Failing that it would be Cubendo till I really can't use it anymore because of some cpu hardware change or OS changes.

Bottom line for me is I am not about to learn a completely new DAW as my main DAW unless I really really had to.
rsp


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## wst3 (Feb 1, 2021)

I have seen one subscription model that I could accept, and that company was closed down by their overlords!

When Cakewalk offered a subscription they did it well.

First, a perpetual license was still available (some might argue that their annual upgrades were a subscription, but one had the option to skip without losing the current tool).

And second, and this was brilliant, with the Cakewalk subscription you owned everything you received until you ended the subscription. Not quite rent to own, but in some ways even better. And you could get back in and catch up when you wanted, for a modest fee.

Third, they promised monthly updates, and they lived up to that, so right about the time they were dipping into you wallet they also gave you some bug fixes, and some new features.

Rolling updates, and the ability to keep whatever you received while you subscribed made this a no-brainer for me. Except we all know how that turned out.

That is the only subscription arrangement I will enter into. If there is no guarantee that I can keep the features and functions that I received as a subscriber then I'm out. (That assumes they do the ethical thing and provide a perpetual license should they go out of business.)

Right now I use Cakewalk by Sonar and Studio One, with Studio One getting the lions share of new projects, and Cakewalk serving up "legacy" projects. If either of them switched to a subscription model exclusively I'd drop them on the spot.

Eventually, I suspect, every developer in this market space will switch to a subscription model. Hopefully some of them do so with an eye towards their customers as well as their bottom line.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 1, 2021)

MeldaProduction have a subscription that ends once you hit full price of their Complete bundle. That’s fair and basically a rent-to-own model.


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## Crowe (Feb 1, 2021)

wst3 said:


> And second, and this was brilliant, with the Cakewalk subscription you owned everything you received until you ended the subscription. Not quite rent to own, but in some ways even better. And you could get back in and catch up when you wanted, for a modest fee.


I think you made an error here, this is how pretty much *every* subscription works. Do you mean '*after* you ended the subscription'?


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## shponglefan (Feb 1, 2021)

José Herring said:


> What would you do if one of your DAWS of choice ended up going subscription? Would you stick to it or jump ship?


It would likely depend on the pricing and how invested I was in the particular DAW.

At the moment I've just switched from a long-time Reaper user to Studio One and Bitwig. So I'm not yet committed to the latter DAWs. If they opted to switch to a subscription only service, I could always go back to Reaper.


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## Doorak94 (Feb 1, 2021)

While i can see the benefits of subscription models, i dont think they should replace a perpetual license. I think an option between the two is fine, but if i had to have one or the other, id rather buy a perpetual license outright.


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## darkogav (Feb 1, 2021)

LudovicVDP said:


> I came to say this as well...
> 
> But at least you can chose when to pay (or not...)


Agreed. I am in same group. When a really good useful feature gets released or when my OS becomes unsupported then I will upgrade. In the meantime I just use the Cubase Pro DAW as is. Its such a huge application and so much functionality that it will keep you busy for years to learn it all.


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## cloudbuster (Feb 1, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Bitwig looks good, especially for synth/sound, but the yearly subs to get updates looks pricey to me.


I thought about this long and hard before pulling the trigger, and lo and behold - some weeks later during the December sales found the upgrades on sale on audiodeluxe for about $130 which isn't that bad IMO since you can buy them in advance and use them whenever you like, theoretically after a couple years but most people activate them after some major updates like e.g. V3.0 ('Grid') or lately V3.3 that among other features introduced Polymer, a semi-modular hybrid synth with wavetable oscs. etc... 
(Just add it to a track, configure it to your liking (OSC, filters, envelopes, etc...) and with one click it all gets converted into a modular setup within the grid (optional), ready for additional modules and further modding - ridiculous). 

The 'downside', as I mentioned somewhere else ... if I knew beforehand that I'd use my other synths less and less I could have saved some serious coin but YMMV, as usual.


----------



## Al Maurice (Feb 1, 2021)

I don't have problems with subscriptions per se, but as long as the updates provided work as expected, and they don't break some long standing feature I depend on.

As it is I've had to rollback to version 5.02 on Studio One, as the lastest versions seemed to have a broken midi workflow for me. And they perform very glitchadly. So for now would prefer to keep the the major release cycle instead.


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## IFM (Feb 1, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Why wouldn’t you update Reason? Would you have updated it if they hadn’t offered a sub alongside?


I barely use it as it is, and the removal of rewire didn't sit too well with me (all those older projects). The other part is just voting with my wallet on not supporting their subscription model.


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## artinro (Feb 1, 2021)

Subscription only is an instant drop for me....DAWs, samples, software, anything. I would take the time to learn a new DAW and switch to that, even if I felt it was an inferior product. That’s how much I hate subscription models.


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## gohrev (Feb 1, 2021)

Depends on the price.

€7,99 per month? Sure. 
€17,99 per month? Nah.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Feb 1, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> This. And the whole “what’s all the fuzz about... you can still use your perpetual license” communication plan. Yuk.
> 
> Yeah. No.
> 
> (Not even mentioning the “this is good for the starters out there”. BS. They have had rent-to-own for YEARS, which basically means a subscription that STOPS when you’ve paid in full)


In fairness, this is more than rent-to-own, which, unless I'm mistaken, would only get you Reason. This gives you everything they sell, as soon as it comes out.


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## Quasar (Feb 1, 2021)

artinro said:


> Subscription only is an instant drop for me....DAWs, samples, software, anything. I would take the time to learn a new DAW and switch to that, even if I felt it was an inferior product. That’s how much I hate subscription models.


Same here. As is software that mandates online activation, "download managers" dongles, bongles or any other bullshit beyond a simple, locally controllable license number or file key. I will never, ever again spend a bloody dime as an endorsement of corporfascist oppression. 

The current state of software usage rights is a medieval horror story, and only a massive boycott, a general refusal to participate in the models enjoying popularity now will be sufficient to change the status quo.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 1, 2021)

TigerTheFrog said:


> In fairness, this is more than rent-to-own, which, unless I'm mistaken, would only get you Reason. This gives you everything they sell, as soon as it comes out.


Agreed. My comparison was apples / oranges.


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## veranad (Feb 1, 2021)

I would pick another DAW and change too.

There are plenty.


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## dbudimir (Feb 1, 2021)

I would jump ship!


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## José Herring (Feb 1, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Reason are not removing perpetual licences....the hype on this is getting tired now....


Obviously you didn't read my whole post. 

They haven't yet. The writing is on the wall. Suite is gone. So you'll have 2 choices on the next update. Pay some ridiculous sum of money for the update+all the new instruments and players that aren't included in the the DAW package. Or, pay $20/month. Reason suite is done replaced by Reason+ That's obvious and people that don't see this as The direction they are going in are putting their head in the sand and crossing their fingers that the corporation under new management does the right thing. I have no faith that they will.


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## easyrider (Feb 1, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Obviously you didn't read my whole post.
> 
> They haven't yet. The writing is on the wall. Suite is gone. So you'll have 2 choices on the next update. Pay some ridiculous sum of money for the update+all the new instruments and players that aren't included in the the DAW package. Or, pay $20/month. Reason suite is done replaced by Reason+ That's obvious and people that don't see this as The direction they are going in are putting their head in the sand and crossing their fingers that the corporation under new management does the right thing. I have no faith that they will.


I‘ve just bought the suite upgrade two days ago ...I got the remaining REs for $20 each....

The rest of your post is pure conjecture....


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## sean8877 (Feb 1, 2021)

No, it would be time to find a new non-sub DAW then.


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## José Herring (Feb 1, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I‘ve just bought the suite upgrade two days ago ...I got the remaining REs for $20 each....
> 
> The rest of your post is pure conjecture....


So it doesn't piss you off that you bought a product 2 days ago for full price, an update that I think now is over a year old, then had to buy the remaining RE's for $20 to get it up to the old Suite level? That's the worst deal in the history of Propellarheads upgrades.

So basically you paid double the price for suite only to be left out of any additional RE's and players when you upgrade in the future. So any Reason Studio release in the future you'll have to pay full price for if you don't buy Reason +. You've limited yourself to what you have now and future Reason builtin devices and leaving yourself either to pay a hefty sum for Reason Studio devices or subscription. 

There's no future in that model for me. 

Like I said I'll be happy with my 11 suite. Glad I got it. Time to find something else.


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## rrichard63 (Feb 1, 2021)

In the business world, corporate buyers of software often require developers to put their source code in escrow, so that when the developer goes out of business (or stops providing license validation and/or technical support) its users are not left without anything at all. I'm not aware of any music or graphics software companies that have done this. It doesn't solve every problem with subscription models, but it does help with the problems related to future availability. It's a good-faith step in the right direction.

EDIT: In my opinion, no professional composer or producer should take a chance on a software subscription without such an escrow agreement. Hobbyists like myself are a different matter. Not being able to reopen/recreate an old project can be a major hassle, but not a threat to our livelihoods.


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## easyrider (Feb 1, 2021)

José Herring said:


> So it doesn't piss you off that you bought a product 2 days ago for full price, an update that I think now is over a year old, then had to buy the remaining RE's for $20 to get it up to the old Suite level? That's the worst deal in the history of Propellarheads upgrades.
> 
> So basically you paid double the price for suite only to be left out of any additional RE's and players when you upgrade in the future. So any Reason Studio release in the future you'll have to pay full price for if you don't buy Reason +. You've limited yourself to what you have now and future Reason builtin devices and leaving yourself either to pay a hefty sum for Reason Studio devices or subscription.
> 
> ...


I bought Reason 11 over 18 months ago...I Bought the suite upgrade 2 days ago....Nothing has changed.....before the sub was released nothing was different....

The sub changes nothing...

If you have the suite...the sub changes nothing....the only thing you don’t have to do is pay monthly for years on end....costing more in the long run....

R12 is incomimg and Reason have already said there will be new devices in the upgrade so I will see if they are worth it to me to upgrade...

Reason + selling angle seems to be the weekly sound packs and videos etc...I have no interest in these....

I have no interest in reason....I use the rack as a vst in studio one....the updates to the daw side of reason are meaningless to me....I just bought the remaining REs in the suite for $20 each to use in the rack.... which is a bit of a bargain if you ask me....


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## Polkasound (Feb 1, 2021)

Imagine buying a magazine subscription, but instead of them sending you a brand new issue every month, they send you another copy of the old issue, but with a few corrected typos and a different color font. And when your subscription runs out, the magazine self destructs.

I think I'll pass.


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## C.R. Rivera (Feb 1, 2021)

ThomasL said:


> Well, this is (I guess) from "the other side". I already subscribe to my house, insurance, car insurance to name a few so why not a DAW? Oh, I do that as well, Studio One.
> 
> And yes, I'm old, AND stubborn but changed DAW a few years back, from Logic to Studio One and it would be something very odd to get me to change again.
> 
> I think $20 for a single DAW is a bit too much though.


But just like "house [property taxes] and insurance, car insurance" the subscrition will to go up every year, often into a terrestial black hole of true undefinables.


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## dzilizzi (Feb 1, 2021)

Um, I kind of did. And I kind of didn't. ProTools is my DAW of choice. They went subscription. I was still able to pay $99 per year to keep my permanent copy updated. But we have basically been told when our update runs out, we need to go subscription. Or pay an obscene amount annually. I bought enough to last until 9/2023. I picked up Cubase and Studio One in the hope I would love one of them more. Hasn't happened yet. 

It may be time for Reaper......


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## Doorak94 (Feb 1, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Um, I kind of did. And I kind of didn't. ProTools is my DAW of choice. They went subscription. I was still able to pay $99 per year to keep my permanent copy updated. But we have basically been told when our update runs out, we need to go subscription. Or pay an obscene amount annually. I bought enough to last until 9/2023. I picked up Cubase and Studio One in the hope I would love one of them more. Hasn't happened yet.
> 
> It may be time for Reaper......



See now i find this wrong - forcing people out of a perpetual license in order to go subscription. Its just so greedy.


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## greggybud (Feb 1, 2021)

Subscription only?

Cubase every November.

NI every summer. However unless NI changes their paradigm, my relationship with them will end. I'm progressively unhappy with what they have become over the past 10 years while other developers IMO are doing it better today. Komplete..I want to see quality over quantity. They have become a clearing house of samples, outsourcing, and re-branding plugs. The innovative people who made NI over 20 years ago are mostly gone.

SoundToys when they do offer a paid upgrade. They have not in a long time, but I feel their tools are very valuable.

UAD. When UAD proclaims their accelerator card needs to be replaced. Going from UAD to UAD-2 they offered a nice "decide now for a good deal or pay much more later on if you change your mind thing."

Waves. When I actually need support from Waves I'll do the WUP. Version 9 lasted me for many years. I feel sorry for Mac owners.

There is nothing worse than a traditional subscription ending and your left with nothing.


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## Tremendouz (Feb 1, 2021)

If Reaper were to go subscription-based (unlikely to ever happen) I'd jump to something else without a second thought. I have zero tolerance for subscriptions since that means paying more. At this point I would've paid over $1000 had it costed $20 per month like Reason+ does.


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## greggybud (Feb 1, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> ProTools is my DAW of choice.


This is a shot in the dark. But if you have any issues concerning midi editing in the key or drum edit windows, most if not all the key modifiers (ctr, sft, alt, etc) are there...just different so it's a re-learning thing. I can post a video if necessary.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Feb 1, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Um, I kind of did. And I kind of didn't. ProTools is my DAW of choice. They went subscription. I was still able to pay $99 per year to keep my permanent copy updated. But we have basically been told when our update runs out, we need to go subscription. Or pay an obscene amount annually. I bought enough to last until 9/2023. I picked up Cubase and Studio One in the hope I would love one of them more. Hasn't happened yet.
> 
> It may be time for Reaper......


If you like PT, take a look at Reaper and Samplitude Pro/Suite (not Music Studio and I guess not Sequoia).


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## Dr.Quest (Feb 1, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Well I can hold on to my Reason 11 licenses for a while. I have Reason Suite which they've now discontinued. No more suite of plugins so it will be the choice of sticking to the basic Reason or getting the subcription in the future. As much as it pains me, I've decided to go on a long journey to replace all the synths and plugins I've grown to rely on in Reason. I mean it won't be that hard as I've probably already done that over the years with VST plugins, but still Reason was so much of my life for so long.
> 
> There's a few things in the Reason Rack that will be hard to replace. Sweeper for instance but I think I'll hold on to my licenses just for those few things that I can't replace.
> 
> ...


I don't understand... you keep your Reason 11 license forever. You bought it. Just use Reason as long as it works, which will probably be for another 10 years or so. They aren't taking your license away.


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## José Herring (Feb 1, 2021)

zvenx said:


> I have had more or less two DAWS in my professional life... first Opcode EZ Vizion.Vision, Studio Vision Pro then Cubendo.
> Took me years to be able to work with my DAW without thinking, using muscle memory. I actually don't think I can use Cubendo as effeciently as I can Studio Vision Pro still some almost 20 years later.
> 
> I bought Studio One a few years ago, just in case Steinberg Pisses me off completely for the last time... They haven't thus far, but I find Studio One Pro for obvious reasons the most Cubendo like. I can use it without reading the manual.
> ...


Still cry myself to sleep at least once a year over the loss of Opcode Vision and Studio Vision. Truth is back then I couldn't afford Studio Vision so I would dream about the day when I'd be able to afford to upgrade Vision to Studio Vision with a protools back end. That platform had so much promise and was the beginnings of the the idea of a complete DAW studio. 

Cubase is wonderful it really is but it's gotten really, really inefficient. Them adding to 20 year old code is catching up to them and it's time for a bottom up update kind of along the lines of Cubase SX. I'm testing out Studio One but for some reason it isn't fully working with all my controllers yet. I may give it another shot and maybe that will be my 2nd DAW of choice. But it is so close to Cubase that it hardly offers anything of value different other than it does seem to be less bloated which is a huge plus. I just don't think that I could use them both in tandem. Maybe it's time to look into a Live+Rewire setup with Cubase. I like Live and nothing works better for loops only problem is that I generally don't use many loops.


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## Tim_Wells (Feb 1, 2021)

Banquet said:


> I'm a Cubase Pro user, and if Steinberg went subscription I'd use another DAW. I hate subscription models.


Same here. More than likely I'd transition to Reaper. Of course, I can probably keep using Cubase 10 for years to come.


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## dzilizzi (Feb 1, 2021)

greggybud said:


> This is a shot in the dark. But if you have any issues concerning midi editing in the key or drum edit windows, most if not all the key modifiers (ctr, sft, alt, etc) are there...just different so it's a re-learning thing. I can post a video if necessary.


I draw in a lot of my midi, especially drums. Cubase is just plain weird. I have highlighted the area and tried to open the midi editor. Nope. Next time, I highlight the area, try to open the midi editor, it works. Can't figure out what I did differently. Tried dragging and dropping chords from the chord track. get a big red X. Shut it down and reopen, drag and drop works fine. Things like this. Loading instruments- you think it would remember I mostly use Kontakt. No, I have to search for it almost every time. 

It makes everything much more complicated than it needs to. Studio One? So easy to use. I don't even have to open the manual. Cubase's manual is gibberish - if I can find what I need? it rarely seems to work the way it is supposed to. I don't think I have finished a piece of music in Cubase.


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## Rory (Feb 1, 2021)

I paid $200 for Logic Pro X seven years ago. Haven’t paid a cent for updates, and there is no serious prospect of it going subscription. This will be my eighth year, which works out to $200/8 = $25 per year in 2013 dollars.


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## nilblo (Feb 1, 2021)

IF I made a living off composing, then Yes - I could do subscription. Writing music is my hobby so I would dump Presonus if they would go subscription. I would dump any software that goes subscription. I owned SketchUp and made drawings of almost a hundred exsisting log houses (scandinavian "style") Some of them were rotting away as they were since long abandoned. A number of them were late 18th century and it was kind of a forensic interesting work to recreate them in SketchUp. SketchUp was eventually sold to Trimble and they unfortunately took the subscription approach. So - I abandoned Sketchup.


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## Polkasound (Feb 1, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> I draw in a lot of my midi, especially drums. Cubase is just plain weird. I have highlighted the area and tried to open the midi editor. Nope. Next time, I highlight the area, try to open the midi editor, it works. Can't figure out what I did differently. Tried dragging and dropping chords from the chord track. get a big red X. Shut it down and reopen, drag and drop works fine. Things like this.


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## artomatic (Feb 1, 2021)

Been on subscription for a few years now with Avid's Pro Tools (Ultimate).
Yes, a lot of us users that are paying annually ($399 for me) are really stupid!! 
I've tried Logic, Motu's DP, Cubase, etc. but they just don't cut it for me.
Avid is so greeeeedy!!
So I'll stay stupid and broke!


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## robgb (Feb 1, 2021)

I hate the subscription model so, goodbye for me.


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## Quasar (Feb 1, 2021)

Tremendouz said:


> If Reaper were to go subscription-based (unlikely to ever happen) I'd jump to something else without a second thought. I have zero tolerance for subscriptions since that means paying more. At this point I would've paid over $1000 had it costed $20 per month like Reason+ does.


If Reaper ever went subscription (true, it's really unlikely), I would simply keep the version I have and stop updating it. One good thing is that we've quite possibly plateaued for the immediate to foreseeable future, insofar as innovation with DAWs, VIs, sample libaries & FX tend to be incremental at this point. It is now possible to have a collection of DAW tools and just use them without worrying about the Next Great Thing. Carpenters who use power drills aren't waiting for the next Black & Decker "game changer" model to come out. They just use the drills they have.

...In fact I suspect there is a correlation: It's precisely _because_ there are fewer compelling reasons to continue to buy more stuff that subscription models are becoming more rampant. If new products or paid version upgrades aren't needed by the end-user, then the "need" to keep paying has to be created some other way.


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## rrichard63 (Feb 1, 2021)

Quasar said:


> I suspect there is a correlation: It's precisely _because_ there are fewer compelling reasons to continue to buy more stuff that subscription models are becoming more rampant. If new products or paid version upgrades aren't needed by the end-user, then the "need" to keep paying has to be created some other way.


I haven't thought of it this way before. I think it might be a large part of the explanation.


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## rnb_2 (Feb 1, 2021)

KarlHeinz said:


> I am absolutely p....... that reason so short after all this "Reason Suite" marketing hype (that get me trapped cause of the players included) now changes to subscription which in a way makes the Suite buy kind of worthless.


I don't know, I kind of feel like anybody that bought Suite before it was discontinued probably got a great deal, picking up a ton of REs for a song. Going forward, you can just pick and choose which subsequent REs to buy, and whether or not to upgrade the DAW based on new features, not which extras come with it. Plus, there's now no reason to hold off on new REs because they might be in the next version of Suite.

My gut feeling is that no DAW is in the market position to switch to subscription only - Reason made the mistake of making it look like they were, and it's backfired badly; PreSonus already has the option, but still sells perpetual licenses as well. I have the (cheapest) Adobe subscription, and a few for iPhone/iPad apps, so I'm not fundamentally against them, but if too many tools went that route, I'd have to start making difficult choices about which are worth paying for on an ongoing basis.


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## Tremendouz (Feb 1, 2021)

Quasar said:


> If Reaper ever went subscription (true, it's really unlikely), I would simply keep the version I have and stop updating it.


That's an option. I tried Reaper 1.0 the other day (I think from like 2008?) and it still works. No midi capabilities though 😄


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## rnb_2 (Feb 1, 2021)

rrichard63 said:


> I haven't thought of it this way before. I think it might be a large part of the explanation.


I think subscription options are offered with the expectation that current customers are unlikely to go for them, at least in the short run, but that they lower to barrier to entry for new users. I know there is some rent-to-own business in the music market, but I don't think anyone has offered a DAW that way, and it's not common in the larger software market.

Subscriptions are largely coming over from the mobile market, where they are becoming much more common, though typically at very low price points. This means that younger consumers will be more used to them and possibly not as hostile as those of us who are used to purchasing licenses over the first few decades of the personal computer industry.


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## Robert_G (Feb 1, 2021)

I hate subscription everything and I have none. No tv streaming service no music streaming service no VI subscriptions.....all of them are literally skimming your pay check every month and in the end you have ownership of nothing.


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## bill5 (Feb 1, 2021)

The idea of renting software long term or indefinitely is IMO one of the very dumbest ideas ever...fortunately this is N/A for me as my needs aren't overly complex and my current DAW (Mixcraft) does everything I need and I don't need to jump to anything. If a new DAW came out or even a new version of that one and it looked really great but it was a subscription thing, I wouldn't consider it for a second.


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## dzilizzi (Feb 1, 2021)

I paid $2.99 for a year of Craftsy. I have a number of their tutorials I've bought over the years. They got bought out and offered a really low rate to former users to suck them in. I generally would rather own the classes. And Prime - but I look at that as prepaid shipping.

Edit: And Groove3. That has been generally worth it. But only when I get it on sale. I refuse to pay for Adobe and still use Adobe X.


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## bill5 (Feb 1, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> I hate subscription everything and I have none. No tv streaming service no music streaming service no VI subscriptions.....all of them are literally skimming your pay check every month and in the end you have ownership of nothing.


I hear you but TV or music streaming isn't the same thing...there you're paying for a service, not a product. It's kind of like going to the movies or going out to eat. You're paying for enjoyment that show or meal provides, not to own anything.


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## DCPImages (Feb 1, 2021)

I don’t mind having a genuine choice between subscription and “purchase”. But there seems to be a growing trend of subscribers getting special treatment and sweeteners over and above what those who pay in-full up-front get. 

I would always opt for purchase over an ever-growing number of companies taking direct debit from my account every month for things I might not use all that often.


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## rrichard63 (Feb 1, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> I think subscription options are offered with the expectation that current customers are unlikely to go for them, at least in the short run, but that they lower to barrier to entry for new users.


No question that this is another large part of the explanation.


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## Robo Rivard (Feb 1, 2021)

Force people to subscribe, and they will use a crack copy. Sorry, this is how it is.


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## Sarah Mancuso (Feb 1, 2021)

If Reason goes subscription-only, I'll be upset then. I wouldn't want it to happen. But for now I don't see any point in getting preemptively disappointed by something that hasn't happened, that the developers have claimed isn't going to happen. Unless we're also swearing off Studio One because Sphere exists?

Also, seconding that anyone who bought Suite when it was available got a great deal. It was a one-time deal that existed for Reason 11 only, and while I do find it kind of bizarre to introduce and then end it in such a short time, it's being talked about as though they've killed off a long-term project. It didn't even exist before last year. (Okay, I checked, it was late 2019.) I'm sure users will still be able to pick up the REs they're interested in at deep discounts on sale like we did before Suite existed, because this _is_ still the world of audio software, of course.


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## X-Bassist (Feb 1, 2021)

artomatic said:


> Been on subscription for a few years now with Avid's Pro Tools (Ultimate).
> Yes, a lot of us users that are paying annually ($399 for me) are really stupid!!
> I've tried Logic, Motu's DP, Cubase, etc. but they just don't cut it for me.
> Avid is so greeeeedy!!
> So I'll stay stupid and broke!


Even with my perpetual license of regular protools, had to purchase updates up to 2026 at $99/yr before it went to $199/yr. Just to make sure it’s compatable with a newer computer when I’m forced to get one. Pretty much a subscription insurance against apples pointless OS update changes.

Between Avid and Apple, they are tapping us out. Can’t anyone else make a protools type app based on VSTs? I’ve tested Cubase, DP, many more, but none do all that PT does. For film work it just doesn’t seem to be matched, yet.

But I said that about photoshop, and Affinity Photo came in to save me for $50. 😄


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## Alex Fraser (Feb 1, 2021)

Rory said:


> I paid $200 for Logic Pro X seven years ago. Haven’t paid a cent for updates, and there is no serious prospect of it going subscription. This will be my eighth year, which works out to $200/8 = $25 per year in 2013 dollars.


Exactly the same here, Rory. 
IMO, Logic remains the standard bearer for value (assuming you don’t count the Mac purchase!)

The best thing about Logic is that paying it’s developers and keeping them supplied with posh coffee probably costs Apple the equivalent of 5 minutes worth of iPhone sales per year.

The biggest threat to Logic’s future is if Apple gets bored of it and no longer sees it as a way to sell macs.


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## DCPImages (Feb 1, 2021)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> If Reason goes subscription-only, I'll be upset then. I wouldn't want it to happen. But for now I don't see any point in getting preemptively disappointed by something that hasn't happened, that the developers have claimed isn't going to happen. Unless we're also swearing off Studio One because Sphere exists?
> 
> Also, seconding that anyone who bought Suite when it was available got a great deal. It was a one-time deal that existed for Reason 11 only, and while I do find it kind of bizarre to introduce and then end it in such a short time, it's being talked about as though they've killed off a long-term project. It didn't even exist before last year. (Okay, I checked, it was late 2019.) I'm sure users will still be able to pick up the REs they're interested in at deep discounts on sale like we did before Suite existed, because this _is_ still the world of audio software, of course.


I started stepping back from Studio One when Sphere was introduced because that felt like the beginning of a move to full subscription too.


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## darkogav (Feb 1, 2021)

I think one needs to differentiate between you do you not like the subscription model because it's a bad model or you don't like the subscription model because you don't like change.

I still think a sub is a good business model for software solutions. It's much easier to part with $10 or $20 per month than it is to part with $300 to $500. If Spotify or Netfix were to charge people $200 once a year, I think they would not have as many customers as they do. I think some people aren't taking into consideration of the possibility that going subscription might result in an influx of new customers who will offset the few that chose to leave due to subscription model. There might be a lot more people willing to spend $20 a month than $500 every few years out there.


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## JamieLang (Feb 1, 2021)

I think I would find another option. But, I'm old...and thus experienced...thus flexible. I'm not sure I'd switch DAWs. I think I'd be more the guy who goes "oh...Cubase is going subscription with v12? v11 upgrade it will be." ...and then use v11 for the next decade. 

I think people are a little obsessed with upgrading DAWs. Maybe I should say...that they overestimate the difference any of the incremental improvements make in sound or workflow.


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## bill5 (Feb 1, 2021)

Robo Rivard said:


> Force people to subscribe, and they will use a crack copy. Sorry, this is how it is.


I don't think this will change that one way or other. People who pirate are going to do it regardless.


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## bill5 (Feb 1, 2021)

darkogav said:


> I think one needs to differentiate between you do you not like the subscription model because it's a bad model or you don't like the subscription model because you don't like change.


I'd bet a month's pay extremely few people at most dislike it simply because it's different.



> I still think a sub is a good business model for software solutions. It's much easier to part with $10 or $20 per month than it is to part with $300 to $500. If Spotify or Netfix were to charge people $200 once a year, I think they would not have as many customers as they do.


Again short term, sure. Try before you buy. But long term? It's ridiculous. It's kind of like paying $10-20 a month on a credit card forever vs just saving up the money and buying, or at least making much bigger payments so it is paid off in a reasonable time. It's great for companies; it's foolish for the end user.


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## dpasdernick (Feb 1, 2021)

I hate subscription. Truly.


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## rnb_2 (Feb 1, 2021)

The more I see these threads, the more I realize that this community, like many others, is not remotely representative of the whole of the market. Adobe still gets raked over the coals over going sub-only years ago, and their financials have never been better. *Somebody* is paying for those subscriptions. 

Granted, nobody in this market has the power that Adobe does across the industries they're in, but nobody in the music market (save PT, kinda) has gone subscription-only, either, and people are tying themselves in knots over it, almost competing to see who can express the greatest disdain for the idea.

I think @darkogav is closer to the mark than many want to admit...


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## Polkasound (Feb 1, 2021)

darkogav said:


> I think one needs to differentiate between you do you not like the subscription model because it's a bad model or you don't like the subscription model because you don't like change.


What does liking or disliking change have to do with it? I personally don't like the subscription-based software model for a couple reasons:
​1. Once I get a DAW PC operating perfectly, I disable OS updates and mainly run the DAW offline. If being offline would disable a subscription software program from launching, then I don't want any subscription software.​​2. I have two DAWs — one is running Windows 7, the other Windows 10. In order to maintain Cubase project compatibility between them, I can't upgrade Cubase past 9.5 on either PC. So if Cubase were subscription, I'd be paying a monthly fee for no new content. That would make my Cubase license a rental, not a subscription. My personal outlook is that renting is good for something expensive that I only need once in a great while, like a limousine, banquet hall, or a hydraulic auger; not a $500 software program that I'm going to use in perpetuum.​
But I fully understand why some people would like subscription software. I have nothing against developers going that route as long as they continue offering the option to buy a license outright.



rnb_2 said:


> Adobe still gets raked over the coals over going sub-only years ago, and their financials have never been better. *Somebody* is paying for those subscriptions.


Professional photographers and graphic designers are paying for those subscriptions because Adobe left them no other way to use Photoshop.


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## bill5 (Feb 1, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> The more I see these threads, the more I realize that this community, like many others, is not remotely representative of the whole of the market. Adobe still gets raked over the coals over going sub-only years ago, and their financials have never been better. *Somebody* is paying for those subscriptions.


? Adobe isn't in the music biz last I heard, so not a valid analogy. As for "Somebody is paying for those subscriptions," my guess would be mostly corporations.


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## rnb_2 (Feb 1, 2021)

bill5 said:


> ? Adobe isn't in the music biz last I heard, so not a valid analogy. As for "Somebody is paying for those subscriptions," my guess would be mostly corporations.


I think I addressed market differences in the very next paragraph, and where you say "mostly corporations", I think you really mean "not hobbyists". I think there are a lot of small shops that subscribe to Adobe's products because they see value in them, but it's harder to make that call if you aren't making money via the software you use.


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## emilio_n (Feb 1, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> The more I see these threads, the more I realize that this community, like many others, is not remotely representative of the whole of the market. Adobe still gets raked over the coals over going sub-only years ago, and their financials have never been better. *Somebody* is paying for those subscriptions.
> 
> Granted, nobody in this market has the power that Adobe does across the industries they're in, but nobody in the music market (save PT, kinda) has gone subscription-only, either, and people are tying themselves in knots over it, almost competing to see who can express the greatest disdain for the idea.
> 
> I think @darkogav is closer to the mark than many want to admit...


I pay for Adobe photography pack (Photoshop + Lightroom) because I am a professional photographer and less than 10$ monthly is not a big deal if your a making money with the tools.

I hate subscriptions and if any of the competitors could fit with my workflow I will run out of Adobe.
I am not getting any money with my music and I have Logic Pro a few years ago for less than 200$. If Apple starts to charge a subscription for logic, maybe I will search for another solution. If I am getting money with Logic and they deliver more functionalities with the subscription I think I will be able to pay a small fee.


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## zach.mx (Feb 1, 2021)

Haven't read this thread, but I'd prefer to keep a perpetual license of ableton as opposed to a subscription service. I pay for the Adobe suite since I edit full time as my day job, and it's a large amount of money to drop every year on the software. Plus with everything increasingly going subscription based, I fear that one day I will be paying a subscription for every aspect of my life.


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## jcrosby (Feb 1, 2021)

3DC said:


> When it comes to subscriptions to me the most irritating thing is that everything starts from "affordable" or "just" 25$ even if its total crap. If you must have 10 of those "affordable" tools or libraries in your production pipeline suddenly you are paying 250$ / month. Its not that affordable anymore.


Exactly. Add a couple more to the pile and you start to get near the cost of leasing a car. Leasing my DAW? Nope.


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## LudovicVDP (Feb 2, 2021)

I think there is a psychological aspect to it (for me at least).
Let's imagine the cost would be exactly the same, subscription vs buy + upgrade

For a pro, I guess it could be yet another monthly invoice, like electricity and everything... I'm not saying pros would like that. But they would probably more easily "accept" it, providing the income stream covers it. -> I need it for my job... I pay for it.

For a hobbyist, it's a totally different approach.
You can put Cubase as an objective, gather money on birthdays, work for it, spare the money... and then comes the day you can proudly buy it. This is nice. You're happy. You have a new toy. And it's all kept away from your monthly budget. It's a separate envelope.

Having it become a monthly costs would completely change the way I would perceive it. It would become a burden. Something I would make less sense of because I would be in negative territory every month, since that expense would not be compensated.
It would become part of my monthly budget, the one that I use to eat and pay the bills, not the fun budget I can build at my own pace, for my pleasure.


Adding to that:
If this goes for Cubase, that's one thing. 
But if it becomes the standard for everything... Then I'm looking at subscriptions for Cubase, Spitfire, OT, Cinesamples, 8DIO, PerformanceSamples, Strezov, etc... etc...
Would be a monthly fortune...


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## Bman70 (Feb 2, 2021)

darkogav said:


> I think one needs to differentiate between you do you not like the subscription model because it's a bad model or you don't like the subscription model because you don't like change.
> 
> I still think a sub is a good business model for software solutions. It's much easier to part with $10 or $20 per month than it is to part with $300 to $500. If Spotify or Netfix were to charge people $200 once a year, I think they would not have as many customers as they do. I think some people aren't taking into consideration of the possibility that going subscription might result in an influx of new customers who will offset the few that chose to leave due to subscription model. There might be a lot more people willing to spend $20 a month than $500 every few years out there.


At $20 monthly, if you used your DAW for a mere 5 years, you would have paid $1200 for it. Meanwhile I paid $300 for a perpetual license (shopping Black Fridays), and had $900 for other instruments.


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## AudioLoco (Feb 2, 2021)

X-Bassist said:


> Even with my perpetual license of regular protools, had to purchase updates up to 2026 at $99/yr before it went to $199/yr. Just to make sure it’s compatable with a newer computer when I’m forced to get one. Pretty much a subscription insurance against apples pointless OS update changes.
> 
> Between Avid and Apple, they are tapping us out. Can’t anyone else make a protools type app based on VSTs? I’ve tested Cubase, DP, many more, but none do all that PT does. For film work it just doesn’t seem to be matched, yet.
> 
> But I said that about photoshop, and Affinity Photo came in to save me for $50. 😄


What are you missing from other DAWS that only PT has, for your specific workflow?
Have you tried Nuendo?


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## Saxer (Feb 2, 2021)

I don't like subscriptions. I hate the thought that I have to be forced to use it because it feels wrong to pay monthly for something I use twice a year.

I want to buy something when I have the money to spent. And I want to go on using it even if I have to spent my money for something else.

Owning a lot of equipment lowers the need of buying more and so lowers the oncost over time.
Having a lot of equipment on subscription rises the oncost over time. Bad idea.


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## Alex Fraser (Feb 2, 2021)

I can't shake the suspicion that subscriptions are what companies turn to when they're starting to run out of options.

The FTP program I use has announced a switch to the so-called "Dutch Model" whereby the software ditches the "version" setup. New features are added immediately rather than being held back for the next big (chargeable) update. When you buy the software, you get 12 months of updates and after that, you get to keep the software but it's "frozen" in time. Want more updates? Buy another 12 months etc.

That's a bit better than a subscription. Maybe another DAW is already using that model? Apologies if that's already the case. I'm a Logic Head and don't pay too much attention to other software.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Feb 2, 2021)

X-Bassist said:


> I’ve tested Cubase, DP, many more, but none do all that PT does. For film work it just doesn’t seem to be matched, yet.


Did you try Samplitude/Sequoia?


Alex Fraser said:


> The FTP program I use has announced a switch to the so-called "Dutch Model" whereby the software ditches the "version" setup. New features are added immediately rather than being held back for the next big (chargeable) update. When you buy the software, you get 12 months of updates and after that, you get to keep the software but it's "frozen" in time. Want more updates? Buy another 12 months etc.
> 
> That's a bit better than a subscription. Maybe another DAW is already using that model?



Bitwig does it like that, you can buy one year of updates (any time you want). But has 'normal' versioning. 



emilio_n said:


> I pay for Adobe photography pack (Photoshop + Lightroom) because I am a professional photographer and less than 10$ monthly



Gót to thank the photographs for that, I was paying double that for PS alone until Adobe introduced the special bundle price for PS + LR. 



X-Bassist said:


> But I said that about photoshop, and Affinity Photo came in to save me for $50. 😄


Same for me. Filmgimp was almost there, but some feature was missing.


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## Al Maurice (Feb 2, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> I can't shake the suspicion that subscriptions are what companies turn to when they're starting to run out of options.....


It gets to a point, where the market becomes saturated and then what?

* You need to find a way to keep the interest of your existing user base in your brand.

* Perhaps some users who become dissatisfied with their current habitat, may like to dip their toe in and test the waters elsewhere.

* Or even there may be some first time users out there, who like to try the waters, before immersing any deeper.

=> So then I can see some value in the subscription model ....

Many developers haven't quite fully committed to one model or another yet .... which potentially benefits us all one way or another.


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## ThomasL (Feb 2, 2021)

C.R. Rivera said:


> But just like "house [property taxes] and insurance, car insurance" the subscrition will to go up every year, often into a terrestial black hole of true undefinables.


Correct. Hopefully your salary will have the same turnout though.


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## ThomasL (Feb 2, 2021)

bill5 said:


> I hear you but TV or music streaming isn't the same thing...there you're paying for a service, not a product. It's kind of like going to the movies or going out to eat. You're paying for enjoyment that show or meal provides, not to own anything.


Yes, but in a way one could argue that you'll be paying for the service "to use" a DAW as well, not owning it.

EDIT: reading the fine print you're not owning it at all, you're only "owning" a license to use it. How you pay for that license is up to you, if you have the choice that is.


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## dcomdico (Feb 2, 2021)

I used to be a Pro Tools user. It went to a subscription model, increasing its price from $99 to $299 a year, so I stopped using it. Reason upgrades are usually around $100 or so. The subscription model effectively doubles the price of ownership. I won't be moving to Reason+.


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## el-bo (Feb 2, 2021)

We live in a world where one can subscribe to monthly underpants. So perhaps the question should be "When..", not "If...".

https://www.myoddballs.com/products...onthly-subscription-g2?variant=31956066009149

New grundies and socks, every month? Just what are people doing in this stuff? 

And to the original question, I don't know. I use Logic, so I think I'm safe.


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## C.R. Rivera (Feb 2, 2021)

ThomasL said:


> Correct. Hopefully your salary will have the same turnout though.


Thomas, I am thrice retired and working on my next one. When the social security increase is 1.1% for the cost of living, but Medicare goes up 3% percent or more, well, you do the long-term math!


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## rocking.xmas.man (Feb 2, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> That's a bit better than a subscription. Maybe another DAW is already using that model? Apologies if that's already the case.


Pro Tools has that licensing OR subscription.
Actually that's not bad. the annual update plan renewal for the small software (vanilla) is 199 and the update plan renewal for the real thing (ultimate) is 375.

they adjusted pricing so it takes a few years longer before subscription becomes dramatically more pricey. it does though.


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## dzilizzi (Feb 2, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> I can't shake the suspicion that subscriptions are what companies turn to when they're starting to run out of options.
> 
> The FTP program I use has announced a switch to the so-called "Dutch Model" whereby the software ditches the "version" setup. New features are added immediately rather than being held back for the next big (chargeable) update. When you buy the software, you get 12 months of updates and after that, you get to keep the software but it's "frozen" in time. Want more updates? Buy another 12 months etc.
> 
> That's a bit better than a subscription. Maybe another DAW is already using that model? Apologies if that's already the case. I'm a Logic Head and don't pay too much attention to other software.


This I am okay with. That is how my current ProTools setup is. Once my annual payment runs out on my perpetual license, I will likely freeze it and hope my computer never dies......

Or, hopefully, at that point, Studio One does video? Apple comes to it's senses and stays with Intel so I can make a Hackintosh and run Logic? Cubase suddenly makes sense and works the way the manual says it is supposed to? 

I find another hobby?


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## Alex Fraser (Feb 2, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Or, hopefully, at that point, Studio One does video? Apple comes to it's senses and stays with Intel so I can make a Hackintosh and run Logic? Cubase suddenly makes sense and works the way the manual says it is supposed to?
> 
> I find another hobby?


Please don't go anywhere, Lizzi. Buy an Apple Silicon Mac, get Logic, a black polo neck and come join me here in the cultist/purist corner. 😉


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## Rory (Feb 2, 2021)

Capture One is an interesting example of the game being played. Capture One offers two options, purchase a perpetual license or subscribe. The purchase option attracted a lot of Adobe users who disliked subscription. However, over the last couple of years Capture One has made purchase increasingly unattractive. At this point, it makes financial sense for very few people, and the option is more theoretical than real.

Basically, Capture One got a boatload of Photoshop/Lightroom users to convert to Capture One, and now it's pushing them hard to subscription, which is why a lot of them left Adobe in the first place.


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## Loïc D (Feb 2, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> Please don't go anywhere, Lizzi. Buy an Apple Silicon Mac, get Logic, a black polo neck and come join me here in the cultist/purist corner. 😉


Can I join too ?

If Logic goes subscription, then I’ll buy Apple.


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## JEPA (Feb 2, 2021)

Say farewell to the world as we knew it... Welcome to the...Matrix.. muahaha 😈 😢


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## doctoremmet (Feb 2, 2021)

JEPA said:


> Welcome to the...Matrix.. muahaha 😈 😢


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## rnb_2 (Feb 2, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Apple comes to it's senses and stays with Intel so I can make a Hackintosh and run Logic?


Since Logic is essentially a marketing cost to drive the sale of Macs, I think you can see one of the other reasons (besides Intel being about 5 years behind their own roadmap) that making its own processors is the only way forward for Apple.

The beauty of it on the user side is that, based on the performance of the lowest-end Apple Silicon, many may not need as expensive a rig as they've become accustomed to. Yes, RAM is still a question for those who need more than 16GB, but in my case, the M1 mini is faster, even when emulating Intel, than my 2018 i7 mini (a lot faster with native code). So, the M1 starts off $100 cheaper than the discontinued i3 Intel mini it technically replaces, but with no pricey Intel processor upgrades (all of which it is faster than) - the only options are RAM and storage.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Feb 2, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> The beauty of it on the user side is that, based on the performance of the lowest-end Apple Silicon, many may not need as expensive a rig as they've become accustomed to. Yes, RAM is still a question for those who need more than 16GB, but in my case, the M1 mini is faster, even when emulating Intel, than my 2018 i7 mini (a lot faster with native code). So, the M1 starts off $100 cheaper than the discontinued i3 Intel mini it technically replaces, but with no pricey Intel processor upgrades (all of which it is faster than) - the only options are RAM and storage.


Without user replaceable RAM and SSDs Apple will gain more than before on upgrades, I guess.
And the big question is if Apple actually managed to scale the performance to non-low-power CPUs. But we will see.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 2, 2021)

José Herring said:


> ....Would you jump to another DAW if your DAW went subscription.



Logic isn't likely to do that - the subscription is to Mac computers - but in the abstract my answer is either a) yes, or b) I'd just stay on the permanent version I already have (as I do with Pro Tools 10).

I personally have a strong aversion to ongoing fees for *anything*, having gone through some times during the Great Recession when I probably wouldn't have been able to pay the subscription.

Is that rational? I don't know, and maybe that's part of the difference between people in their 60s - albeit very immature ones - and these kids today.


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## rnb_2 (Feb 2, 2021)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Without user replaceable RAM and SSDs Apple will gain more than before on upgrades, I guess.
> And the big question is if Apple actually managed to scale the performance to non-low-power CPUs. But we will see.


Yes, the lack of pricey processor upgrades (much of which formerly went to Intel) likely does free up some money for pricey RAM and storage upgrades (which stays with Apple). Everybody wins (except Intel)!


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## ReleaseCandidate (Feb 2, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> Everybody wins (except Intel)!


That's actually the best news about Apple's change! 
Although it's cool that they finally give away their Windows compilers and HPC libraries for free too (not only the Linux ones, as before), but I guess that's actually Nvidia's (Intel's biggest competitor in the HPC/AI market with Tesla/CUDA) fault (as they bought Portland - the compiler company .


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## José Herring (Feb 2, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Logic isn't likely to do that - the subscription is to Mac computers - but in the abstract my answer is either a) yes, or b) I'd just stay on the permanent version I already have (as I do with Pro Tools 10).
> 
> I personally have a strong aversion to ongoing fees for *anything*, having gone through some times during the Great Recession when I probably wouldn't have been able to pay the subscription.
> 
> Is that rational? I don't know, and maybe that's part of the difference between people in their 60s - albeit very immature ones - and these kids today.


I think that increasing your monthly commitments is a sure road to suicide if you're a freelance artist until you've got a few million stashed away that you don't have to worry about that shit any more. 

Good news is that now that I've come off my initial shock and horror of having to decide if I'm going to stick with Reason or not I realized that with Suite for now I have everything that Reason + subscription has to offer except Friktion their modeling synth. So I may just buy the perpetual licenses for that and Freeze Reason at version 11 until some real innovation makes me want to upgrade. That could take a year maybe 2 yrs which will give me plenty of time to learn new stuff. 

It's interesting that the RE's Reason's plugin format don't seem to be included in the subscription so you'll have to buy those just like before.

So on the surface it just looks like to me Reason + just replaced Reason Suite for now. I know that Reason + has the soundpacks but that would be the least of my interest. I really don't care about having thousands of sounds at my disposal considering that I already have thousands of sounds I never use.


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## Quasar (Feb 2, 2021)

ThomasL said:


> Yes, but in a way one could argue that you'll be paying for the service "to use" a DAW as well, not owning it.
> 
> EDIT: reading the fine print you're not owning it at all, you're only "owning" a license to use it. How you pay for that license is up to you, if you have the choice that is.


This tiresome "you don't own it you only own the license to use it" argument is just sophistry, legalese terminology employed for the purpose of being able exert control and potentially rip people off. Since it runs contrary to Natural Law and the God-given morality governing equity in human exchange, it may be summarily dismissed and wholly rejected.


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## IFM (Feb 2, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> I can't shake the suspicion that subscriptions are what companies turn to when they're starting to run out of options.
> 
> The FTP program I use has announced a switch to the so-called "Dutch Model" whereby the software ditches the "version" setup. New features are added immediately rather than being held back for the next big (chargeable) update. When you buy the software, you get 12 months of updates and after that, you get to keep the software but it's "frozen" in time. Want more updates? Buy another 12 months etc.
> 
> That's a bit better than a subscription. Maybe another DAW is already using that model? Apologies if that's already the case. I'm a Logic Head and don't pay too much attention to other software.


To me that's the right way and really is similar to how Steinberg is. Basically a perpetual license that you get free updates on for a certain amount it time, but when that time is over it will keep working till you move pay again.

Protools' perpetual licenses, however, only give you 30 days after that year of updates is over to renew. If you miss it and want to upgrade later down the road you have to buy the complete license all over again. This is the part that irks me and how you can see they are really trying to push people into the subscription.


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## Bman70 (Feb 2, 2021)

IFM said:


> To me that's the right way and really is similar to how Steinberg is. Basically a perpetual license that you get free updates on for a certain amount it time, but when that time is over it will keep working till you move pay again.
> 
> Protools' perpetual licenses, however, only give you 30 days after that year of updates is over to renew. If you miss it and want to upgrade later down the road you have to buy the complete license all over again. This is the part that irks me and how you can see they are really trying to push people into the subscription.


This can be a good pricing model. However, it shouldn't be the full license price all over again after updates expire. If you bought it for $500 initially, and then after one or two years updates expire, the updates renewal should be a fraction of that price since you're only buying incremental improvements to your original purchases. Something like $49 or less. 

In photography, Topaz labs takes a crappier approach: You buy an app for $79, then get very small updates free for a year. If you want to continue those very small updates after 12 months, you pay $79 again. Fortunately, the updates aren't critical so you can go two or maybe 3 years without re-buying. But to me this is more akin to a monthly subscription paid annually.


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## Alex Fraser (Feb 2, 2021)

Yep, a fair “continue using” fee is key. I think it’s a good compromise.


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## vitocorleone123 (Feb 2, 2021)

I wish everyone adopted payments-to-ownership, but I know that's a harder and more expensive model to implement and support (lots of arguing customers who pay some and stop for some reason and want exceptions made for them).

The have something after subscription is next best. Ideally, it'd get 1 year of guaranteed functionality (eg thru one of Apple's many OS updates that seem to break everything) after you stop paying, and, after that, it may or may not work.


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## rnb_2 (Feb 2, 2021)

José Herring said:


> It's interesting that the RE's Reason's plugin format don't seem to be included in the subscription so you'll have to buy those just like before.


I think there's a word missing here, as I'm not sure what this means - all of Reason Studios' REs are included in the subscription, including new ones as they're added.

I'm happy to see that you've come back around on sticking with Reason for now - switching now, when you're not actually losing anything and have so much time invested, didn't seem like the best choice.

When I was contemplating the ridiculous deal I got on Reason 11 Suite, one of the calculations I had to make was what was likely to be included in a theoretical Reason 12 Suite, since I'd already purchased Friktion, and Pattern Mutator was the only other current RE I didn't have. Like you said, the subscription basically replaces the Suite, which I already have, so now I just need to wait for Pattern Mutator (or any other RE that comes out) to go on sale or, if I really want it, just buy it - there's no reason to wait for the theoretical new Suite that will never come.

As long as they still sell licenses for future versions, those of us with Suite are in a pretty good spot - we have a massive catalog of REs to handle just about anything, and we're free to evaluate any future versions of the DAW/Rack or new REs entirely on their own merit.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 2, 2021)

José Herring said:


> I think that increasing your monthly commitments is a sure road to suicide if you're a freelance artist until you've got a few million stashed away that you don't have to worry about that shit any more.
> 
> Good news is that now that I've come off my initial shock and horror of having to decide if I'm going to stick with Reason or not I realized that with Suite for now I have everything that Reason + subscription has to offer except Friktion their modeling synth. So I may just buy the perpetual licenses for that and Freeze Reason at version 11 until some real innovation makes me want to upgrade. That could take a year maybe 2 yrs which will give me plenty of time to learn new stuff.
> 
> ...


Did you see Paul Lehrman's kvetchfest on Synth and Software, the site I work on?









The Kvetch: Love Reason, Hate The New Version


Reason is a great program, but v.11 has some fatal flaws for this Synth and Software contributor. Reason and I have had a long, fruitful relationship. I started using it back before it included audio recording – I think that was version 2. In the past I’ve helped the company that makes it...




synthandsoftware.com


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## José Herring (Feb 2, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> I think there's a word missing here, as I'm not sure what this means - all of Reason Studios' REs are included in the subscription, including new ones as they're added.
> 
> I'm happy to see that you've come back around on sticking with Reason for now - switching now, when you're not actually losing anything and have so much time invested, didn't seem like the best choice.
> 
> ...


I should have added 3rd party RE's like Blamsoft's Expanse. I hope I'm wrong is if all 3rd party RE's are included it would make Reason + more of a bargain and I might have to take back all my angry words. As far as I can see those are not included though. Reason Studios RE's are included. That's why I came to the conclusion that Reason + just replaced Reason Suite for now and the only thing I'm missing is Friction which I'll just grab. And, Pattern Mutator which I could care or less about.

As far as sticking with Reason, I think I was just pissed when I decided to F'em. But, after 20 years of using Reason F'em really isn't realistic. It's going to take some time. Though I'm really loving Vital as my new Wavetable synth. Never really got on that well with Europa and Blamsoft Expanse is really hard to use but does sound every bit as good as Vital or Serum.


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## José Herring (Feb 2, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Did you see Paul Lehrman's kvetchfest on Synth and Software, the site I work on?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That review is bang spot on. I wish they would have kept Rewire at least until they make their plugin rack multitimbral. VST 3 certainly can implement that and they could make their plugin handle midi channels in the same way that VEPro does.


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## rnb_2 (Feb 2, 2021)

José Herring said:


> I should have added 3rd party RE's like Blamsoft's Expanse. I hope I'm wrong is if all 3rd party RE's are included it would make Reason + more of a bargain and I might have to take back all my angry words. As far as I can see those are not included though. Reason Studios RE's are included. That's why I came to the conclusion that Reason + just replaced Reason Suite for now and the only thing I'm missing is Friction which I'll just grab. And, Pattern Mutator which I could care or less about.


Yes - my point was that all of the "1st party" RE's are included in Reason+. I don't think they want to get into splitting the subscription between multiple 3rd party RE makers, so I think those will remain separate purchases, same as before.


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## ThomasL (Feb 3, 2021)

Quasar said:


> This tiresome "you don't own it you only own the license to use it" argument is just sophistry, legalese terminology employed for the purpose of being able exert control and potentially rip people off. Since it runs contrary to Natural Law and the God-given morality governing equity in human exchange, it may be summarily dismissed and wholly rejected.


Do you feel the same about music licensing? (Just curious not picking.)


----------



## ThomasL (Feb 3, 2021)

C.R. Rivera said:


> Thomas, I am thrice retired and working on my next one. When the social security increase is 1.1% for the cost of living, but Medicare goes up 3% percent or more, well, you do the long-term math!


I understand.


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## DaddyO (Feb 3, 2021)

Harry said:


> Cubase's annual updates (150 EUR) feels like a subscription anyway. You can always say No to the update, but you'll pay for it anyway whenever you need to upgrade.


True enough. But you can wait for their summer sale before upgrading.


----------



## DaddyO (Feb 3, 2021)

LudovicVDP said:


> Haha. I'm actually waiting for one to upgrade to 11.


Ditto


----------



## Striking Parallels (Feb 3, 2021)

José Herring said:


> ....Would you jump to another DAW if your DAW went subscription.
> 
> I've always been a 2 DAW user. Cubase+Reason. Reason then dropped Rewire and is now standalone and a plugin rack.
> Reason Studios just announced that they are going subscription and while they still offer Reason full licenses the writing is on the wall as far as I can see. Just head over to the Reason Studios shop and you have to scroll and hunt to find the old Reason shop were you can by their plugins and program outright. The subscription model is in your face.
> ...


Jump ship, probably. I just hate the whole “it’s yours, you own it...until you don’t” practices in modern commerce. It is becoming more and more prevalent—and expensive—as brick-and-mortar commerce and live human contact become an “unnecessary expense”. We need to retake our privacy and property rights!
Sorry for the rant, but you asked...


----------



## Quasar (Feb 3, 2021)

ThomasL said:


> Do you feel the same about music licensing? (Just curious not picking.)


I think artists deserve recognition and compensation for their work. How fairness might best be achieved in the 21st century is a difficult and complex subject, but there is a kernel of truth behind the "you don't own the thing, you only own a license to use it" idea insofar as this means that I'm not free to subvert its intended use. If you write and publish a song and I purchase it, the song is "mine", but it is not mine to plagiarize and resell. It's only mine to listen to and enjoy, so I get that.

But if I buy your song, this does not give you the right to monitor where and when I listen to it. You do not have the right to tell me who I can listen to it with. You do not have the right to come into my house unannounced to conduct a sweep-search of my music collection. If, due to your own paranoia or greed, you do these things and then claim "I only own the license, not the song" as an excuse, I can rightfully assert that you are misusing, twisting and manipulating that concept as an instrument of control, rendering your argument invalid.


----------



## JPQ (Feb 3, 2021)

I have Studio One prosessional 4 payed with Rent-to-own model now i pay upgrade to 5. i cannot imagine buy new daw. come Logic but mac goed too pricey. and i generally i feel Cubase is harder than Studio One and/or Logic. and i hate dongles.


----------



## jononotbono (Feb 3, 2021)

So every year Cubase has an upgrade fee to upgrade to newer version. You don’t have to upgrade but as newer versions get released, the price goes up until you eventually have to rebuy it full price.

Every year, Pro Tools Ultimate costs about £800 just to upgrade to the latest version.

As far as I’m concerned, I already pay a subscription for the DAWs I use. It’s just not officially called a subscription. 😂


----------



## easyrider (Feb 3, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Good news is that now that I've come off my initial shock and horror of having to decide if I'm going to stick with Reason or not I realized that with Suite for now I have everything that Reason + subscription has to offer except Friktion their modeling synth. So I may just buy the perpetual licenses for that and Freeze Reason at version 11 until some real innovation makes me want to upgrade. That could take a year maybe 2 yrs which will give me plenty of time to learn new stuff.
> 
> It's interesting that the RE's Reason's plugin format don't seem to be included in the subscription so you'll have to buy those just like before.
> 
> So on the surface it just looks like to me Reason + just replaced Reason Suite for now. I know that Reason + has the soundpacks but that would be the least of my interest. I really don't care about having thousands of sounds at my disposal considering that I already have thousands of sounds I never use.


Exactly my thinking in picking up suite a few days ago...


----------



## Quasar (Feb 3, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> So every year Cubase has an upgrade fee to upgrade to newer version. You don’t have to upgrade but as newer versions get released, the price goes up until you eventually have to rebuy it full price.
> 
> Every year, Pro Tools Ultimate costs about £800 just to upgrade to the latest version.
> 
> As far as I’m concerned, I already pay a subscription for the DAWs I use. It’s just not officially called a subscription. 😂


Reaper is far less expensive and far more righteously licensed, but somewhat similar. You get 2 full versions for your license, at which time you need to buy another license if you wish to upgrade. I suppose you could argue that this is subscription by another name, but it's not.

The crucial difference is that you have a choice. You _may want_ the new features in the upgraded version or you may _want_ to upgrade your hardware and OS and have compatibility issues. But this doesn't mean that you have to. As long as you can choose to stay frozen in time and continue to use the software you originally paid for, then that is fair. 

Bananas have a natural shelf life too, so I cannot go to the grocery store once and expect to have a lifetime's worth of bananas. But the grocer is not arbitrarily setting a deadline for eating them, and they are certainly not installing surveillance in my home to make sure that I eat them by that date. That's the difference.


----------



## Lukas (Feb 3, 2021)

DCPImages said:


> I started stepping back from Studio One when Sphere was introduced because that felt like the beginning of a move to full subscription too.


I can reassure you, Studio One is and will remain available without a subscription.

No reason to step back because of an additional offer for interested users.


----------



## easyrider (Feb 3, 2021)

Lukas said:


> I can reassure you, Studio One is and will remain available without a subscription.
> 
> No reason to step back because of an additional offer for interested users.


People seem to automatically think that once a subscription hits the company will get rid of perpetual...

Subscription is just another revenue stream....Presonus, Reason , Avid all of these offer perpetuals...

Not all companies are as evil as Adobe 😂


----------



## dzilizzi (Feb 3, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> So every year Cubase has an upgrade fee to upgrade to newer version. You don’t have to upgrade but as newer versions get released, the price goes up until you eventually have to rebuy it full price.
> 
> Every year, Pro Tools Ultimate costs about £800 just to upgrade to the latest version.
> 
> As far as I’m concerned, I already pay a subscription for the DAWs I use. It’s just not officially called a subscription. 😂


Though with Cubase, you could stop and still own what you have. With a real subscription, if you stop paying, you can't use it. Even the version you currently have on your computer. That's the part I don't like. It is like a movie in the theatre or a library book, once the movie is over or the book is returned, you no longer have access to use it.


----------



## Lukas (Feb 3, 2021)

easyrider said:


> People seem to automatically think that once a subscription hits the company will get rid of perpetual...


Yes.



easyrider said:


> Not all companies are as evil as Adobe


:-( I pay for the Premiere Pro subscription because no other video software can compete for what I need. But since I don't use it commercially, it feels pretty bad.


----------



## Quasar (Feb 3, 2021)

Lukas said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> :-( I pay for the Premiere Pro subscription because no other video software can compete for what I need. But since I don't use it commercially, it feels pretty bad.


There are usually alternatives. Have you tried Davinci Resolve?


----------



## easyrider (Feb 3, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Though with Cubase, you could stop and still own what you have. With a real subscription, if you stop paying, you can't use it. Even the version you currently have on your computer. That's the part I don't like. It is like a movie in the theatre or a library book, once the movie is over or the book is returned, you no longer have access to use it.


That’s the point here...Being able to use the tools you have purchased...Some people still using Photoshop CS6 on Windows....

Some People are still on Cubase 9 et....early versions of Protools etc..Buying doesn’t mean you have to update...Cubase updates break things anyway 😂


----------



## ReleaseCandidate (Feb 3, 2021)

Lukas said:


> :-( I pay for the Premiere Pro subscription because no other video software can compete for what I need.


Premiere? What do you need, that you haven't found elsewhere?


----------



## dzilizzi (Feb 3, 2021)

easyrider said:


> That’s the point here...Being able to use the tools you have purchased...Some people still using Photoshop CS6 on Windows....
> 
> Some People are still on Cubase 9 et....early versions of Protools etc..Buying doesn’t mean you have to update...Cubase updates break things anyway 😂


Jono was comparing paid annual upgrades to a subscription. In some ways I agree. It feels the same, especially with ProTools where if you miss an annual upgrade, you had to buy a full new version. But a subscription can never stop if you want to keep using the product. Annual upgrades are only necessary if you aren't happy with your version. Or Apple messed everything up again. I could stop with ProTools right now and be very happy.

Plus, I cheat with Cubase. I buy the .5 upgrade on sale the summer before the full upgrade, then hold on to it until they release the new version and register it then to get the free grace period upgrade. Someday they will quit allowing it.


----------



## Lukas (Feb 3, 2021)

Quasar said:


> There are usually alternatives. Have you tried Davinci Resolve?





ReleaseCandidate said:


> Premiere? What do you need, that you haven't found elsewhere?


Yes I have tried Davinci Resolve... it's the closest I guess. But on my not quite up to date computer it does not work well and crashes and freezes a lot during editing. In terms of functionality, the "synchronize different videos by audio" feature does not work nearly as well as Premiere's sync functions (at least with my footage - being gig recordings, piano and synth recordings). And working with nested clips is not as convenient as in Premiere but that's just my personal feeling after having worked with Davinci for 2-3 days. That's why I stick to Premiere so far.

I will definitely evaluate Davinci Resolve again once I've got a new system.


----------



## ReleaseCandidate (Feb 3, 2021)

Lukas said:


> Yes I have tried Davinci Resolve... it's the closest I guess. But on my not quite up to date computer it does not work well and crashes and freezes a lot during editing.


You do not want to use Resolve on anything with a weak CPU or not much RAM (<32GB, more than 64GB if you're using Fusion) or a weak GPU with less VRAM than 8GB.
There is Lightworks, but their price for the perpetual license got higher and higher with time, so you choose the subscription 




__





Lightworks - Easy to Use Pro Video Editing Software


Lightworks video editing software helps all editors and creators; from Oscar-winning Hollywood legends to YouTubers. Bring your video to life today.




www.lwks.com




Magix Vegas Pro (als always with Magix, use their 'Pro' versions, not 'Maker', 'Studio' ...)




__





VEGAS Pro: Video & audio for professionals


VEGAS Pro gives you all the tools you need for professional video editing with advanced HDR color correction, live streaming and sound design.




www.vegascreativesoftware.com




Edius








PRODUCTS | EDIUSWORLD.COM


PRODUCTS | EDIUS means more formats and more resolutions in real-time for the ability to Edit Anything, Fast. EDIUS is the 4K HDR perfect finishing tool for professional productions, including documentary and theatrical productions.




www.ediusworld.com







Lukas said:


> In terms of functionality, the "synchronize different videos by audio" feature does not work nearly as well as Premiere's sync functions (at least with my material - being gig recordings, piano and synth recordings).


I'm sorry, I can't help with that.


----------



## easyrider (Feb 3, 2021)

Lukas said:


> Yes I have tried Davinci Resolve... it's the closest I guess. But on my not quite up to date computer it does not work well and crashes and freezes a lot during editing. In terms of functionality, the "synchronize different videos by audio" feature does not work nearly as well as Premiere's sync functions (at least with my footage - being gig recordings, piano and synth recordings). And working with nested clips is not as convenient as in Premiere but that's just my personal feeling after having worked with Davinci for 2-3 days. That's why I stick to Premiere so far.
> 
> I will definitely evaluate Davinci Resolve again once I've got a new system.


Davinci is more needy of GPU than CPU...


----------



## PaulieDC (Feb 3, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> So every year Cubase has an upgrade fee to upgrade to newer version. You don’t have to upgrade but as newer versions get released, the price goes up until you eventually have to rebuy it full price.
> 
> Every year, Pro Tools Ultimate costs about £800 just to upgrade to the latest version.
> 
> As far as I’m concerned, I already pay a subscription for the DAWs I use. It’s just not officially called a subscription. 😂


That's quite accurate!

Certain subscriptions make sense. My side photography business pays for my Adobe sub, $53/month gets me everything Adobe makes (and I use Photoshop and Premiere a LOT). That used to be $2,500 to purchase then $999 every 18 months. Plus it's so easy to write off a sub than it is to depreciate software on taxes. EW Composer Cloud is hard to beat if you need a lot of what they offer. Microsoft Office was $400 for two PCs, now for $9.99/month you get 6 PCs to install which you can share with your family, you're always on the latest version, plus a tablet and phone license, plus 1TB of OneDrive space for EACH family member. Talk about a no-brainer. I love subscription software when it makes sense.

But, call it a mental thing, I want to own my DAW, regardless if it makes better financial sense to subscribe. We are passionate about our DAWs, look how much we argue about them, lol. Ever lease a car? I did once. Felt like a rental and I constantly had to worry about the odometer. So as a preference, I want to own my DAW and own my car.


----------



## Bman70 (Feb 3, 2021)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> You do not want to use Resolve on anything with a weak CPU or not much RAM (<32GB, more than 64GB if you're using Fusion) or a weak GPU with less VRAM than 8GB.
> There is Lightworks, but their price for the perpetual license got higher and higher with time, so you choose the subscription
> 
> 
> ...


I get by fine with Resolve free version on my 8GB RAM iMac. It's not always the "snappiest," but it's never anything drastically slow. I'm only doing relatively short music videos though.

Sometimes I jump into iMovie for a quick project. It actually has some decent volume envelope editing ability. At some point I'll probably buy Final Cut Pro, but my needs are met just fine with the free stuff. There are tons of free luts and assets as well, really for a creative person there's so much free or cheap stuff there's basically no excuse to not be happily creating. Not sure why everyone's acting like they're always one step from the edge of a cliff Lol.


----------



## Crowe (Feb 3, 2021)

@easyrider I'm honestly curious, why do you think that Reason's subscription service is ok, while in other threads you seem to despise the very idea of subscription services?


----------



## Lukas (Feb 3, 2021)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> You do not want to use Resolve on anything with a weak CPU or not much RAM (<32GB, more than 64GB if you're using Fusion) or a weak GPU with less VRAM than 8GB.
> There is Lightworks, but their price for the perpetual license got higher and higher with time, so you choose the subscription


Thanks! Yes... I've got 32 GB but CPU / GPU is the problem I guess.

I have Vegas and I used to like it a lot (-> audio editing) but nested clips or synchronizing clips is not really fun with Vegas... whereas Premiere does a great job on these things.


----------



## easyrider (Feb 3, 2021)

Shiirai said:


> @easyrider I'm honestly curious, why do you think that Reason's subscription service is ok, while in other threads you seem to despise the very idea of subscription services?


I'm indifferent to it. I hate subscriptions....I see Reason going Subscription alongside perpetual no different than other developers...

There was none of this upset when Presonus offered Sphere....But their Marketing was good. Reason released Reason + that offers nothing to current users....Not even a new version.

The only people that should be slightly miffed are the people who didn't get Reason Suite...But you can still get it...So I don't see a problem with it.

I signed up to Composer Cloud EDU for a year to try it out will be thankful when it ends in this March so I can cancel it. The payment every month started to outstay its welcome after a couple of months....I cant wait to get rid of it...

Subscribing to a DAW makes zero sense to me...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 3, 2021)

ThomasL said:


> Do you feel the same about music licensing? (Just curious not picking.)



I'm not ThomasL, but..,



Quasar said:


> Bananas have a natural shelf life too, so I cannot go to the grocery store once and expect to have a lifetime's worth of bananas.



The answer to both of these analogies is the same: you've created projects that you no longer have access to without the DAW.

All analogies break down, but having the banana and eating it too isn't the same thing. And you can buy an album for $10 if you want to listen to it.

(Having said that, I don't have a subscription to a music service either.)

Bottom line, I personally would much rather buy a DAW, own it, and pay for upgrades if I want to. But then I'm not running a software company, and I certainly understand the appeal of being able to level out your income!


----------



## Quasar (Feb 3, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I'm not ThomasL, but..,
> 
> 
> The answer to both of these analogies is the same: you've created projects that you no longer have access to without the DAW.
> ...


i can certainly understand that appeal too, just as I understand that bananas have a-peel.


----------



## PaulieDC (Feb 3, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Subscribing to a DAW makes zero sense to me...


It's a plus for businesses, not individuals. I also see other business types having a better advantage, not so much music creation since it's usually an individual thing. I did some work for a non-profit org who had to hire on several temp graphic artists to get through a website redesign. Six additional employees, all needing Photoshop for 3 months. Ten bucks a pop, easy peazy. That's where it shines.

I said it before but I'm more convinced than ever, I love subscription software for my photo biz, taxes are SO easy, but I want to own my DAW, I don't care if it's three bucks a month to subscribe. I don;t think, overall, the subscription model will fare well in the music composition realm, like it does in business and graphic applications. FWIW, I'm not ever going to subscribe to anything music-related, it's too personal to me. Plus it removes all the fun of monitoring and landing that awesome BF deal!


----------



## rrichard63 (Feb 3, 2021)

Is anybody aware of any subscription for music software (DAW or other) where the contract says what is supposed to happen if the developer goes out of business or is otherwise unable or unwilling to renew the contract for future terms? Or what is supposed to happen if the developer ceases to provide authorization or technical support services during the current contract term?


----------



## Quasar (Feb 3, 2021)

rrichard63 said:


> Is anybody aware of any subscription for music software (DAW or other) where the contract says what is supposed to happen if the developer goes out of business or is otherwise unable or unwilling to renew the contract for future terms? Or what is supposed to happen if the developer ceases to provide authorization or technical support services during the current contract term?


Why would it make any difference? You can't trust that what is supposed to happen will actually happen anyway... This is just another example why all software should never use anything beyond a simple license number or key file that you can backup, store locally and use autonomously.

If activation requires the good graces of a responsive remote server, that software shouldn't be bought. It should be boycotted. It's that simple.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 3, 2021)

Quasar said:


> i can certainly understand that appeal too, just as I understand that bananas have a-peel.


Dadjoking about such a serious matter?! 

I'm a-ppalled.


----------



## Nate Johnson (Feb 3, 2021)

Alright, I’ll play.

I’m fine with subscription models, provided they:

- Maintain a reasonable, progressive update schedule.

- offer an annual renewal option (at a discount from the monthly rate)

In my 25 years of making music, I’ve never stopped spending money on it. The idea that any software is a ‘one time’ purchase is an illusion. If you’re not chasing updates, you’re chasing hardware upgrades.

I also realized long ago that recalling years-old projects rarely ends well - so once I’ve got my final wav files, I delete EVERYTHING. It’s actually very liberating. So no fear of losing access here.

My current daw, Bitwig, is essentially a subscription already. If I want to continue receiving updates, I pay an annual fee. I can decline that option and stick with what I’ve got, but let’s face it, there will always be bugs to fix and attractive new features to try, not to mention hardware compatibility.

My other daw is Logic, which is more likely to get dropped all together (relax, I’m just being dramatic) than go subscription. Christ, how long has it been since I even paid for an update??? In some ways its the most ‘scary’ to be tied to - just look at what happened to Aperture.


----------



## easyrider (Feb 3, 2021)

Nate Johnson said:


> In my 25 years of making music, I’ve never stopped spending money on it. The idea that any software is a ‘one time’ purchase is an illusion. If you’re not chasing updates, you’re chasing hardware upgrades.


I think the whole point here is that you buy the Daw once...not 12 times a year forever...

You can still use it when you have paid once....

You can choose not to upgrade

Paying a sub means you're the developers bitch....

I don’t rent my guitars...or microphones or my drum kit...I see the DAW as the same thing....I quit my job at Christmas...and am currently on a very low income...

I have done all the investment upfront while I had surplus cash flow.....I don’t have to bother will silly payments every month to work in my studio...in fact with all the stuff I could create in my studio for the next 5 years and not spend a penny...

I buy my iPhone outright....its cheaper....I rent the line but not the phone...and can choose pay as you go if I want...I’m not tied to a contract....

Subs always cost more...and usually give you access to stuff you just don’t need or use as an incentive...I would rather pay upfront and be done with it....


----------



## Trash Panda (Feb 3, 2021)

If my DAW went subcription there’d be problems since I roll with subbloodtion.

I’ll see myself out.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 3, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I buy my iPhone outright....its cheaper.



They don't charge you interest, so I believe it comes out the same?

What bothers me is "bundling" rackets. If they're going reduce the price of a phone in exchange for a service commitment, they should offer you a lower price on the service if you don't take the phone.

But one digresses.

If I were a big production house or a school with many people working on dupiicate stations, a software subscription would make sense. They update everything at once and you don't have to worry about keeping up.

I"m not, though.


----------



## Michel Simons (Feb 3, 2021)

easyrider said:


> That’s the point here...Being able to use the tools you have purchased...Some people still using Photoshop CS6 on Windows....
> 
> Some People are still on Cubase 9 et....early versions of Protools etc..Buying doesn’t mean you have to update...Cubase updates break things anyway 😂


Cubase 9?? I didn't know it was already out...

I am still at Cubase Pro 8.5. And I still wouldn't have to pay full price to update to 11.


----------



## chocobitz825 (Feb 3, 2021)

already on studio one's subscription service. no complaints. Every month new content drops, I get another shared workspace service, and regular updates...It really depends on how well supported the service is and if its meant to trap you, or just simplify a process for you. Presonus and Plugin Alliance have made very compelling subscription services IMO.


----------



## turnerofwheels (Feb 3, 2021)

How anyone compares renting with owning a license, especially when the cost for renting adds up to be the same (or even more), is utterly baffling to me.

The optional Bitwig update goes on sale twice a year for about $130. I might renew it once every two years if their update adds features I think are useful. I keep it permanently. That's not even close to a mandatory subscription where you spend way more and lose everything as soon as you stop spending.

Plugin Alliance does it right. They give you a generous voucher for permanent plugins if you subscribe. They even suggest you wait for a quarterly sale before using the voucher. I subscribed for one year and now have some very nice plugins I get to keep.

If I can't get a permanent license, I'm not interested. I'm even less interested if I'm renting for the costs of previously owning a license (say yearly). At most, I would be fine with renting a DAW for a month now and then if I desperately needed it for one project and couldn't justify buying it. Permanently, no.


----------



## JamieLang (Feb 3, 2021)

i used Cubase 6 until this past year I decided to upgrade to 10 for official support on the then new machine. I forget what feature sold me 10.5 from 10...but while its pleasant to have some of the 10 years newer features, none mission critical.


----------



## easyrider (Feb 4, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> They don't charge you interest, so I believe it comes out the same?


You can always get a cheaper sim only tariff with the same data and minutes when not tied to a phone so buying a phone and line is always more expensive


----------



## ThomasL (Feb 4, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> (Having said that, I don't have a subscription to a music service either.)


I meant the other way around. If you license your own music to something instead of "selling" it.


----------



## Al Maurice (Feb 4, 2021)

Somehow we expect new features to be added to the DAW periodically.

Also we expect that there is a certain level of support and patches available for bugs and defects.

Until the time comes that software can write itself, with minimal human intervention, a team of experts is going to be required to plan, develop, test, support and roll these updates out: that all comes at a cost -- somewhere the revenue needs to come in to maintain that ....

Maybe we should consider lowering our expectations somewhat too.


----------



## Nate Johnson (Feb 4, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I don’t rent my guitars...or microphones or my drum kit...I see the DAW as the same thing....I quit my job at Christmas...and am currently on a very low income...


Your guitars, mics and drums are finished, fully functional products that will never need an update, per se.

Other than the occasional string change, I'm not looking at my guitar and saying 'damnit, the d string sounds lower in volume than the g string.' Or 'ooohh looks like they're going to add more articulations in the next update!' 

If someone, somewhere on the planet starts releasing software without bugs, then your argument stands. 

My phone's payment plan is interest free and costs as much as buying the phone outright. Maybe this differs between carriers. 

This all being said, I completely understand the resistance to the concept. At a superficial glance it very much seems like the debate is between 'paying for something once vs. paying for something perpetually' But, as you dig deeper into the reality of the maintaining the 'one-time' cost, it starts to add up. It really is just psychology.


----------



## Bman70 (Feb 4, 2021)

Al Maurice said:


> Somehow we expect new features to be added to the DAW periodically.
> 
> Also we expect that there is a certain level of support and patches available for bugs and defects.
> 
> ...



The most common business model is that the revenue comes from sales of the product. Although there are others of course. 

Still, bugs and defects at minimum should be sorted out before offering a product for sale. (Or after, for free if discovered.) The point of buying a product is to have a product that works, delivers a result without defect. Most things for sale are like this, and if they don't work you can return it for refund. 

I've used unsupported software (Adobe CS6 Suite) now for several years. It still works. There's no need for constant updates, those are usually little cosmetics used as a sales pitch. Like Topaz labs – updates every month it seems, then wants you to rebuy the software to keep getting updates.


----------



## easyrider (Feb 4, 2021)

Nate Johnson said:


> Your guitars, mics and drums are finished, fully functional products that will never need an update, per se.
> 
> Other than the occasional string change, I'm not looking at my guitar and saying 'damnit, the d string sounds lower in volume than the g string.' Or 'ooohh looks like they're going to add more articulations in the next update!'
> 
> ...


The one time cost is not absolutely true if you ever wish to update your DAW for a new version but all updates from Presonus Studio one from v5 to v 6 will be free....

So say the life span between v5 and v6 is 24 months....subscribing to sphere would cost $350

Say the life span between v6 and v7 is 24 months....subscribing to sphere would cost $350

Thats $700

To version 8 it’s $1050 rinse and repeat...

Now if I cross grade from another Daw for $199 I get v5 outright

I then upgrade to v7 missing out on v6 out of choice...for $149

Total outlay up to v8 is $349


----------



## Nate Johnson (Feb 4, 2021)

easyrider said:


> The one time cost is not absolutely true if you ever wish to update your DAW for a new version but all updates from Presonus Studio one from v5 to v 6 will be free....
> 
> So say the life span between v5 and v6 is 24 months....subscribing to sphere would cost $350
> 
> ...


accck don't do the math!!! lol

NEVER do the math. Didn't I say something about psychology?


----------



## Nate Johnson (Feb 4, 2021)

Nate Johnson said:


> accck don't do the math!!! lol
> 
> NEVER do the math. Didn't I say something about psychology?


oh and lets be fair with your math - NO crossgrade, straight up purchase of Studio One v5 - $399 + $149 upgrade to 7. So $548 is the actual comparison to $700 of Sphere. Thats not nearly as dramatic.


----------



## turnerofwheels (Feb 4, 2021)

Nate Johnson said:


> Your guitars, mics and drums are finished, fully functional products that will never need an update, per se.
> 
> Other than the occasional string change, I'm not looking at my guitar and saying 'damnit, the d string sounds lower in volume than the g string.' Or 'ooohh looks like they're going to add more articulations in the next update!'



If this comparison was the case, software (and some sample library) EULAs wouldn't contain 'as is' clauses, and physical instruments that contain chips wouldn't get occasional firmware updates. Support is different than adding new features anyway.

In my case I've no intention of upgrading the version of Pro Tools that I bought a few years ago. It works the way I bought it, just fine. I can access my case full of old sessions when I need them.

Not to mention that a lot of people do look at their instruments and music gear and think about upgrades which could be anything from new pickups, to getting an ebow (that's an extra articulation), to more memory for your studio computer. They can choose when they need to shell out to upgrade on their own terms without losing use of their hardware.


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## easyrider (Feb 4, 2021)

Nate Johnson said:


> oh and lets be fair with your math - NO crossgrade, straight up purchase of Studio One v5 - $399 + $149 upgrade to 7. So $548 is the actual comparison to $700 of Sphere. Thats not nearly as dramatic.


Why would you not take advantage and crossgrade?

Who doesn't have a DAW to crossgrade from?

Even if you didn't have a DAW You could buy Reaper for 60 bucks then crossgrade from that.... 









Studio One 5 Crossgrade | PreSonus Shop


Get a discount on Studio One 5 Professional from another qualifying DAW.



shop.presonus.com







REAPER | Purchase



And once I crossgrade I can stop...Sub mean you gotta keep spendin!


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## Nate Johnson (Feb 4, 2021)

easyrider said:


> but I can stop...Sub mean you gotta keep spendin!


Yeah, but you _won't_ stop upgrading though. I mean in your example, why did you upgrade from v5 to v7 in the first place? Choice is an illusion. haha


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## easyrider (Feb 4, 2021)

Nate Johnson said:


> Yeah, but you _won't_ stop upgrading though. I mean in your example, why did you upgrade from v5 to v7 in the first place? Choice is an illusion. haha


Still works out cheaper buying outright. It still gives you more options and control over how you manage your software purchases.


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## LudovicVDP (Feb 4, 2021)

And what about bankruptcy?
(I think someone mentioned this earlier)

If *Insert company name* goes subscription... Then stops existing for some reasons...
You are left with a program you can't use anymore ?

I like to think my bought Cubase 10 will last whatever happens to Steinberg.


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## ThomasL (Feb 4, 2021)

easyrider said:


> The one time cost is not absolutely true if you ever wish to update your DAW for a new version but all updates from Presonus Studio one from v5 to v 6 will be free....
> 
> So say the life span between v5 and v6 is 24 months....subscribing to sphere would cost $350
> 
> ...


Yeah, but you're missing to mention upgrades to Notion, Batch Converter (keep forgetting it's name) and the occasionally usable sound library. Plus all the extra plugins.

If you're going to do math you need to take it all into account I think.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Feb 4, 2021)

ThomasL said:


> upgrades to Notion


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## chocobitz825 (Feb 4, 2021)

LudovicVDP said:


> And what about bankruptcy?
> (I think someone mentioned this earlier)
> 
> If *Insert company name* goes subscription... Then stops existing for some reasons...
> ...


I'll never understand how people think these things aren't the same thing. Assuming the company goes bankrupt and shuts down, the service for the product ends. No more updates and bug fixes. For a subscription DAW, I imagine the most likely outcome would be any subscription members would get perpetual licenses and be left with the product as is. So what's lost?

Even if you could keep using Cubase after steingberg goes under, at some point a new OS update, or evolution of hardware will make the software outdated and in some cases impossible to use anymore. How is this the better option than transitioning to something more current that works now and for the foreseeable future?

No way I would roll back to studio one ver. 2.....those were the dark ages...


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## LudovicVDP (Feb 4, 2021)

chocobitz825 said:


> I imagine the most likely outcome would be any subscription members would get perpetual licenses and be left with the product as is.


If, as you imagine, that's really what happens... then it is the same indeed.


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## maestro2be (Feb 4, 2021)

I am not a fan of subscription. I would move to another DAW. If it ever got to the point where there were literally no DAW's available anymore without subscription, hmm. I probably would go in screaming, kicking and pounding but giving in. My only other saving grace would be that some other product came out to take "DAWs" place in the market and it's not subscription based.

I would like to think in my own little special bubble world, that at least 1 company would "remain" defiant to the end and not become subscription oriented. DAWs like Reaper for instance, seem to go against the flow. I would just need that 1 DAW vendor that believes that subscription is the devil, or simply offers both and you can choose which one you want.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Feb 4, 2021)

chocobitz825 said:


> I'll never understand how people think these things aren't the same thing. Assuming the company goes bankrupt and shuts down, the service for the product ends. No more updates and bug fixes. For a subscription DAW, I imagine the most likely outcome would be any subscription members would get perpetual licenses and be left with the product as is.


Who would pay the developers to change the authentication of the program to a local only solution? If you have a subscription based program you need some kind of online authentication.


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## dzilizzi (Feb 4, 2021)

Al Maurice said:


> Somehow we expect new features to be added to the DAW periodically.
> 
> Also we expect that there is a certain level of support and patches available for bugs and defects.
> 
> ...


Frankly, if they ever came out with a bug-free version, I'd probably buy once and be done. But they don't. Instead of fixing their last "lastest and greatest", they add "wow, this is a cool new thing that I never knew I wanted and will never use!" to be able to charge for an update that also contains "and oh, yeah, we kind of fixed a few of the bugs you needed to have fixed so it actually works without crashing, but we also broke something else so you will have to buy the next update..."

I don't usually ask a lot from my DAWs. I would like a piano roll that I can draw notes into that will play on an instrument I load. And one that doesn't crash before I can save what I just drew in. How much lower can my expectations be?


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## dzilizzi (Feb 4, 2021)

easyrider said:


> The one time cost is not absolutely true if you ever wish to update your DAW for a new version but all updates from Presonus Studio one from v5 to v 6 will be free....
> 
> So say the life span between v5 and v6 is 24 months....subscribing to sphere would cost $350
> 
> ...


And you get to keep it forever. Don't forget that part. That was the part that kept me on the $99 per year to keep ProTools upgraded and add new things. Kind of a subscription, but I keep my copy if I ever quit paying. I just won't receive any more updates. 

Though maybe I should mention here that Cakewalk tried that with Sonar right before they went kaput..... 

My last version of Sonar Platinum still works.


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## dzilizzi (Feb 4, 2021)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Who would pay the developers to change the authentication of the program to a local only solution? If you have a subscription based program you need some kind of online authentication.


iLok or elicenser?


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## shponglefan (Feb 4, 2021)

chocobitz825 said:


> For a subscription DAW, I imagine the most likely outcome would be any subscription members would get perpetual licenses and be left with the product as is. So what's lost?


I wouldn't count on that.

There have been examples of online-dependent software becoming unusable when the servers are taken offline. This has actually happened with a number of video game titles, even in cases where the companies are still in business. Users are effectively left with an unusable piece of software.

IMHO, we roll the dice when we buy any piece of software with an online dependency. I justify it simply by knowing that even if software X goes down, I have other alternatives.


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## chocobitz825 (Feb 4, 2021)

shponglefan said:


> I wouldn't count on that.
> 
> There have been examples of online-dependent software becoming unusable when the servers are taken offline. This has actually happened with a number of video game titles, even in cases where the companies are still in business. Users are effectively left with an unusable piece of software.
> 
> IMHO, we roll the dice when we buy any piece of software with an online dependency. I justify it simply by knowing that even if software X goes down, I have other alternatives.


fair enough. really though if we're talking about the end of software life, I don't really see the point in fighting over an unsupported DAW. Best to move on to the next thing and optimize your workflow, rather than try and anchor yourself to deadweight. I don't care at all for pro tools' subscription, so I quickly ditched it completely and found suitable replacements in Studio One and Mixbus. My team moved on from pro tools too, and we're all far happier since.


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## rrichard63 (Feb 4, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> iLok or elicenser?


Yes, these solve one major problem, but only if the developer was already using them.


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## dzilizzi (Feb 4, 2021)

All I know is, once you stop paying on a subscription, you stop getting access. And owning it doesn't always help either. 

I bought a number of Craftsy classes. "They will be here forever for you on our website!" They said. Then they went out of business. My paid for classes are gone. Fortunately, someone bought them out. I need to find out how to download them before they disappear again. After that happened, I found a Udemy downloader and downloaded those classes. 

I do have programs I bought over 10 years ago that still work and I still use. But I also know that the ProTools version I got 10 years ago won't work on my current computer setup, even with the compatibility adjustments checked. I'm not sure what the answer is.


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## JamieLang (Feb 4, 2021)

Ok--so the authorizations brings up an issue I've warned about for a LONG time about machine based authorizations. They should've NEVER happened. The masses of "you" argued FOR it..."I will never use a dongle" was a constant beating I heard devs take for for DECADES....and they've finally unfortunately listened. 

And you get what you deserve. If it's any consolation...all the years I've bitched about them--nearly never has that stuff happened. But, it informs how much I spend. If I have two instruments, one is iLok/eLiscencer...and on is machine auth...and they're remotely equal, I'll choose the dongle. Every time. 

It's a matter of principle. I don't want to HAVE to be online. I don't want the company to have to authorize a machine. Remember to DEauthorize machines before I take them offline.


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## rrichard63 (Feb 4, 2021)

JamieLang said:


> Ok--so the authorizations brings up an issue I've warned about for a LONG time about machine based authorizations. They should've NEVER happened. The masses of "you" argued FOR it..."I will never use a dongle" was a constant beating I heard devs take for for DECADES....and they've finally unfortunately listened.
> 
> And you get what you deserve. If it's any consolation...all the years I've bitched about them--nearly never has that stuff happened. But, it informs how much I spend. If I have two instruments, one is iLok/eLiscencer...and on is machine auth...and they're remotely equal, I'll choose the dongle. Every time.
> 
> It's a matter of principle. I don't want to HAVE to be online. I don't want the company to have to authorize a machine. Remember to DEauthorize machines before I take them offline.


A few months ago I had to replace the motherboard in my studio computer. (I'd like to say the old one died, but the reality is I killed it while trying to upgrade some other components.) The licenses on my iLok and eLicenser were no problem at all. Every thing else was a major pain in the neck.


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## easyrider (Feb 4, 2021)

rrichard63 said:


> A few months ago I had to replace the motherboard in my studio computer. (I'd like to say the old one died, but the reality is I killed it while trying to upgrade some other components.) The licenses on my iLok and eLicenser were no problem at all. Every thing else was a major pain in the neck.


I concur...if I can use Ilok... I will...I’ve built a new Ryzen 5950 machine and recently updated the bios and NVME....I cloned the Nvme but this did cause some plugins not to authorise...the majority is on my Ilok with ZDT enabled....waves are in a usb stick in the same Hub as my Ilok....I’ll be updating my bios again maybe 3 or 4 times in the coming months....due to AMD tuning the bios optimisations for Ryzen...I think I will move all my Plugin Alliance Licnces to a Same usb stick as waves and any others....

Studio one was graceful I just added the supposedly new machine to my account and removed the old one...took seconds....

But if your pc is cutting edge....non Ilok plugins can be a PITA


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 4, 2021)

Al Maurice said:


> Somehow we expect new features to be added to the DAW periodically.
> 
> Also we expect that there is a certain level of support and patches available for bugs and defects.
> 
> ...



Two entirely different things: subscribing to *updates* - which is what you're talking about here - and software that stops working when you don't pay the subscription.


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## ResSerp (Feb 4, 2021)

maestro2be said:


> I am not a fan of subscription. I would move to another DAW. If it ever got to the point where there were literally no DAW's available anymore without subscription, hmm. I probably would go in screaming, kicking and pounding but giving in. My only other saving grace would be that some other product came out to take "DAWs" place in the market and it's not subscription based.
> 
> I would like to think in my own little special bubble world, that at least 1 company would "remain" defiant to the end and not become subscription oriented. DAWs like Reaper for instance, seem to go against the flow. I would just need that 1 DAW vendor that believes that subscription is the devil, or simply offers both and you can choose which one you want.


I'm sure at least someone would hold out. Or, updated free DAWs are a real possibility. Cakewalk was abandonware until it was picked up again and is now in it's best form in years. Behringer is serious about their free DAW, and could be a contender also if everyone goes bankrupt or subscription. Reaper isn't free technically, but it will work even if you don't register it.


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## Pier (Feb 4, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> You are taking out hobbyists, for almost everything hobby related a soubscription model is a kill, especially for a DAW.


I think it's quite the contrary.

As a hobbyist you probably don't use your DAW constantly like a pro. With a subscription you can only pay for the months you're actually going to make music.

Back to the original point. I switched from Live to Bitwig which has a subscription-like model. You pay for one year of upgrades but you can keep using the last version you paid for, for as long as you like.


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## jaketanner (Feb 4, 2021)

Pro Tools has been sub model for a few years now...however they still offer perpetual licenses. I think if you are going sub model, it is important to keep the option of buying it outright. What some developers do though, is never sale price the perpetual license. Only company I know that does this is Plugin-Alliance...They have crazy expensive plugin prices and a sub model BUT...they do monthly and every couple of days a killer sale on the perpetual plugins that make them very affordable to buy. 

Having said that, I did opt to go the sub model with PT because for me it's $9.99/month for an EDU license (teacher/student). Plus, I also own an older perpetual license that I can also upgrade at any point...so I'm covered.


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## dzilizzi (Feb 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> I think it's quite the contrary.
> 
> As a hobbyist you probably don't use your DAW constantly like a pro. With a subscription you can only pay for the months you're actually going to make music.
> 
> Back to the original point. I switched from Live to Bitwig which has a subscription-like model. You pay for one year of upgrades but you can keep using the last version you paid for, for as long as you like.


Unfortunately, most subscriptions don’t work that way. You have to pay for the full year.


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## Pier (Feb 5, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Unfortunately, most subscriptions don’t work that way. You have to pay for the full year.


Many subscriptions have a pay-as-you-go plan like EW or Adobe. On a monthly basis, these are usually more expensive than a full year commitment, but if you're only going to use it a couple of months per year it makes sense for a hobbyist IMO.

Obviously for a pro, a yearly commitment makes more sense.

Personally I'm fine with subscriptions as long as the price is right and the company keeps adding value constantly.


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## rrichard63 (Feb 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> I think it's quite the contrary.
> 
> As a hobbyist you probably don't use your DAW constantly like a pro. With a subscription you can only pay for the months you're actually going to make music.


There's a more important difference between professionals and hobbyists. As a professional, your livelihood depends on your tools continuing to work for you in the future. (That includes being able to reopen old projects when the director wants the score for Mega Epic Part 23 to sound just like the score for Mega Epic Part 2.) Hobbyists can cope better, even if it's uncomfortable, when their tools disappear.


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## JamieLang (Feb 5, 2021)

rrichard63 said:


> A few months ago I had to replace the motherboard in my studio computer. (I'd like to say the old one died, but the reality is I killed it while trying to upgrade some other components.) The licenses on my iLok and eLicenser were no problem at all. Every thing else was a major pain in the neck.


Exactly.

Re:there being a place for hobbyists and subscriptions...there ARE...except, IMO, the host application itself. While not a hobbyist as engineer--I am an amateur songwriter, who on occassion needs/wants strings in the arrangement--I'd love to pay $25/mo for all access to Spitfire's catalog--even if I only did that for one SONG...maybe I started with the Studio Strings but decided I wanted a wetter Chamber String? If I paid $6-800/per--I'd use whichever one I had--adding reverb to the SS and removing difference component (or just HF from) from the Chambers. And every time I do strings in a tune, they will have a similar vibe--which isn't inhereintly bad, but in making the case FOR a sub model of instruments...

Even down to basic stuff like pianos. I won't care about a piano sub--I have pianos I like, I play them regularly...but, for some heavy rock artist who wanted to write in a piano ballad...now they buy some lousy sounding EZKeys for $140...just for that tune (and thinking MAYBE they use it in the future)...vs being able to pay $20 for a month of Ivory Complete (as yet fictional sub service)...and have arguably a VARIETY of the best piano samples available.

I've made the case for YEARS that Slate's and other all encompassing plug in services benefit indie artists who are not always mixing content. Sure I need to own my tools and know them like the back of my hand, etc--but, for someone who will record themselves--even if they're recording every weekend year round (which IME doesn't happen), how often do they need to deliver final mixes for mastering? Any DAW worth a damn has good enough built in DSP to handle all tracking/cue needs. So, for them--paying $20 to rent Slate's whole suite to mix their album makes TOTAL sense--no needing to keep up with versioning...

But, for the host. The thing they open to START composing an idea...or at least start documenting it...subscriptions don't have much upside. Lowering the cost of entry, while raising the long term cost, is taking advantage. I think it's the new "here's a free lite version with your $299 USB box"...ie, if they can "only afford" the Presonus Sub...they'll start working in Presonus...and really people don't switch DAWs readily once they have time invested. ESPECIALLY musicians...hobbyists...so, they WILL continue using Studio One--either by sub or buying a license. It's drug dealer marketing. 

So--anyway, there's a place. I just have a hard time imagining the advantage to MOST people for a sub of the host/DAW.


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## dzilizzi (Feb 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> Many subscriptions have a pay-as-you-go plan like EW or Adobe. On a monthly basis, these are usually more expensive than a full year commitment, but if you're only going to use it a couple of months per year it makes sense for a hobbyist IMO.
> 
> Obviously for a pro, a yearly commitment makes more sense.
> 
> Personally I'm fine with subscriptions as long as the price is right and the company keeps adding value constantly.


The monthly for Slate digital is $25, ProTools is $35, and EW is $30. That could potentially cover you for making music at a $90 per month you want to work on you music. But as a hobbyist, I may only have a few days I play with music during the month. Each month I decide to play, I pay $90 and I am limited to those tools. 

As a hobbyist, I think I would prefer to pay for Reaper once for $15 more or even go with the free Cakewalk, pay for Kontakt on sale and buy cheap/free instruments. Or use the free SFZ player. As a hobbyist, it does not make sense to rent unless it is rent to own. As a hobbyist, I have the option to wait for sales because I don't have a deadline. I don't need the latest and greatest. When I was a broke beginner, I didn't upgrade all the time, it wasn't necessary. I made do with minimal instruments. 

The only time I can see renting something is for something I may only use once. Like an expensive mic. 

I am no longer a broke beginner. But the broke beginner in me still says buy and keep until it no longer works is cheaper than paying monthly and having nothing to show for it.


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## Michel Simons (Feb 5, 2021)

rrichard63 said:


> Hobbyists can cope better, even if it's uncomfortable, when their tools disappear.


No, we can't. 

But seriously, it's not like as a hobbyist you are always able to decide that this month you are going to work on music and the next month you aren't. At least, that's not how it works for me.


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## JamieLang (Feb 5, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> The only time I can see renting something is for something I may only use once. Like an expensive mic.


For all those who would rather trade me their oft unused vintage M269c for my oft unused VSL Chamber and Solo strings, I'm game. Throw in the whole East West QLSO with the deal.

That struck me as one of the funniest things I've read in a while.


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## dzilizzi (Feb 5, 2021)

JamieLang said:


> For all those who would rather trade me their oft unused vintage M269c for my oft unused VSL Chamber and Solo strings, I'm game. Throw in the whole East West QLSO with the deal.
> 
> That struck me as one of the funniest things I've read in a while.


LOL! I had heard you can rent some really expensive mics. I thought about it once. Then I bought one of those Slate mics with the mic mods. It's not perfect but good enough. 

Still tempting to rent one someday (I'm a singer) just to see if it actually makes a difference.


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## tc9000 (Feb 5, 2021)

If my DAW went subscription I'd convert all my tracks to MIDI and uninstall.


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## Tren (Feb 26, 2021)

Pier said:


> Many subscriptions have a pay-as-you-go plan like EW or Adobe. On a monthly basis, these are usually more expensive than a full year commitment, but if you're only going to use it a couple of months per year it makes sense for a hobbyist IMO.
> 
> Obviously for a pro, a yearly commitment makes more sense.
> 
> Personally I'm fine with subscriptions as long as the price is right and the company keeps adding value constantly.


The month-to-month price is often so more expensive enough that it doesn't make sense to do it over a full year - or you just find something else to use.

$52.99 vs $79.49/mo for Creative Cloud if you don't sign up for the yearly commitment.

Even if you only keep the subscription for 6 mo. per year, that's $476.94 vs. paying $635.88 for the whole year. *The pricing works out similarly even for Single-App Subscriptions (i.e. Premiere Pro) - so this is an issue across all "budget levels."*

That kind of pricing disparity pretty much means anyone not making money with that software is better off just signing the contract and paying monthly for the entire year. Because if you have to stretch your usage to 8 months or so, you're going to be in the ballpark of paying the pricie of a year, months ahead of time.

People making money with the software are going to go with the yearly commitment because the software pays for itself, and in some cases they can write it it off, anyways.

Adobe's pricing is such that you have to be a really infrequent user of the software to justify paying month-to-month.

Pro Tools is less of an issue because the disparity between Yearly Commitment and Month-to-Month is smaller. Media Composer isn't as friendly (similar to Adobe in how the pricing works out).


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## Tren (Feb 26, 2021)

As for the thread's question.

1. There are enough DAWs that aren't subscription that finding another is not an issue.
2. You can keep using the current version of your DAW, potentially for many years to come - well, at least if you're on Windows 10... Apple is likely to break it in 1-2 years so you'd also need to _freeze _your operating platform if on macOS.



dzilizzi said:


> I am no longer a broke beginner. But the broke beginner in me still says buy and *keep until it no longer works is cheaper than paying monthly and having nothing to show for it.*


I second this.


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## Pier (Feb 26, 2021)

Tren said:


> $52.99 vs $79.49/mo for Creative Cloud if you don't sign up for the yearly commitment.
> 
> Even if you only keep the subscription for 6 mo. per year, that's $476.94 vs. paying $635.88 for the whole year. *The pricing works out similarly even for Single-App Subscriptions (i.e. Premiere Pro) - so this is an issue across all "budget levels."*


Sure, but what if you only need it for 3 months?

That would be paying $237 vs $635.

Also, my main argument, is that the problem is not really the subscription model per se. Different companies have different approaches.

Bitwig also has a subscription model but, unlike Adobe, you pay for having access to newer versions not for being able to use the software itself.


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## Tren (Feb 26, 2021)

Michel Simons said:


> No, we can't.
> 
> But seriously, it's not like as a hobbyist you are always able to decide that this month you are going to work on music and the next month you aren't. At least, that's not how it works for me.


Most hobbyists aren't working on music one month and then not the next. They're doing it all year round, just with limited time to do it and not as a day job.

I'm not sure what other people's perception of what a hobbyist is, but it certainly isn't what they think it is when they posit these weird rental theories.


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## Tren (Feb 26, 2021)

Pier said:


> Sure, but what if you only need it for 3 months?
> 
> That would be paying $237 vs $635.
> 
> ...


You're asking a hobbyist to plan based on something that is too volatile to plan around. You're also assuming that the 3 months they have to work on music are contiguous blocks of time, such that 3 months worth of a subscription is enough. What if it's 3 months, spread out over 10 months... because they only have the weekends and a weekday or two to work on their music, due to other professional/familial commitments?

Really, I'm not even understanding why this weak argument still persists outside of the professional space where people have predetermined time blocks in which they need certain equipment or software. This doesn't work.

Hobbyists do not decide not to produce music simply because they've used up their 3 months quota/budget for the year. Hobbyist is not something that notes how much time someone does something. It notes for what reason they do it, or perhaps the seriousness of the endeavor.

There are "hobbyists" figure skaters at the rink here who skate as much as the "serious" skaters. The amount of time they put into it doesn't make them hobbyists. The disparity in seriousness and goal-setting does. The place that sport has in their life is what makes it different.

*Bitwig is not a subscription model. It's a perpetual software license with 1 year support plans, like Perpetual Pro Tools licenses. The yearly payment is for updates and support, not for access to the software you bought from them. This isn't the hsame thing and using the term subscription to refer to both in this context is just going to confuse people by insinuating they are comparable or identical mechanisms. They are not, and are not.*

The subscription we're talking about in this thread is "pay to access." Bitwig is pay to purchase, and then pay for support and upgrades. This is inot different than paying MAGIX' upgrade fee for Samplitude Pro X year oover year. If you don't want the new version, you simply don't pay and keep using it until a version worth your money is released - at which point you pay and get the new version. It functions practically like a yearly upgrade system.

Adobe's system is pay to access. Where it doesn't matter how much you pay them, you still have to keep paying otherwise you lose access to everything, and the ability to do work.

Bitwig is not a "subscription" product.


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## chocobitz825 (Feb 26, 2021)

It might sound a bit cold, but why should a company prioritize hobbyists? While I’m sure the financial contributions of hobbyists are not insignificant, the business benefits more from aiming at professionals and aspiring professionals who need to spend money on these things in order to keep doing what they do.

hobbyists don’t need the tools available on subscription services unless they choose they want those more expensive options.

If cubase went subscription next, does a hobbyist NEED cubase in order to continue their hobby? Do you need EW to mock up strings parts for your hobby? Do you need anything more than stock plugins mixing?

If you’re a hobbyist, how much you intend to invest in your hobby is your choice, but those price points and priorities probably vary a lot from professionals who use these things to make a living. I don’t see the benefit to adjusting the business for the hobbyist, when there are sufficient tools for hobbyist available.


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## Tren (Feb 26, 2021)

chocobitz825 said:


> It might sound a bit cold, but why should a company prioritize hobbyists? While I’m sure the financial contributions of hobbyists are not insignificant, the business benefits more from aiming at professionals and aspiring professionals who need to spend money on these things in order to keep doing what they do.
> 
> hobbyists don’t need the tools available on subscription services unless they choose they want those more expensive options.
> 
> ...


I didn't say they should, and there are more than enough that do, already, anyways.

A hobbyists needs Cubase as much as any Professional does. As in, losing Cubase would be no great loss. Viable options exist for everyone.

I'm really struggling to see what your point actually is.

There are probably 30 different DAWs and you're writing as if some of them should be ignored by hobbyists with disposable income simply because you want to feel more important...

People need what they say they need. If someone wants better paintbrushes they shouldn't feel the need to stick with cheaper, worse brushes simply because some "professional" told them the only people who "need" them are people who paint for a living.

That's stupidity.

If the Strings are better and the plug-ins are better, and the hobbyists wants to make their music better... They need them.

That's their determination to make, not yours. And it's no less valid simply because they aren't doing this as a primary job/profession.

My condolences for choosing someone's hobby as your primary job.


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## jcrosby (Feb 26, 2021)

Tren said:


> As for the thread's question.
> 
> 1. There are enough DAWs that aren't subscription that finding another is not an issue.


For the moment. I personally suspect subscriptions will become common among all the major DAWs in the next 5 years (if not sooner).


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## chocobitz825 (Feb 26, 2021)

Tren said:


> I didn't say they should, and there are more than enough that do, already, anyways.
> 
> A hobbyists needs Cubase as much as any Professional does. As in, losing Cubase would be no great loss. Viable options exist for everyone.
> 
> ...


You’re making a lot of assumptions about the intent of my comment. If that was due to a lack of clarity, my apologies. The point is, hobbyists are free to choose their price point. I think we agree on that. But “need” is the subjective term here. If a hobbyist is faced with the choice between buying a new string library or paying the bills, then like anyone else, professionals included, they have to gauge if they truly need it or could make due with something else.

im not saying hobbyists shouldn’t use the expensive daws, but if it’s outside of someone’s affordable price range, then they’d have to make a choice about how much they need it vs. wanting it. I don’t see the developers as being wrong to choose a subscription model if it support their business at the expense of hobbyists and even professionals who don’t invest that much into the product. We all have tons of choices, and subscriptions don’t take anything from that.

in my experience, I use studio one professionally, but I’ve found major value in their subscription model and they’ve even been able to provide such quality that I’ve ended up buying less 3rd party plugins and instruments. I imagine some subscriptions could benefit some hobbyists depending on content.

My point was related to how I see often people demonizing subscription because they believe it cuts off the hobbyists who can’t afford to pay a subscription every month. I’m not trying to say professionals are better than hobbyists, but from a business perspective, I can understand why businesses might shift to models based on continued investment rather than sporadic investment.


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## sourcefor (Feb 26, 2021)

Nope hate subscriptions, dont want to rely on the internet to use my shit!


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## chocobitz825 (Feb 26, 2021)

sourcefor said:


> Nope hate subscriptions, dont want to rely on the internet to use my shit!


valid critique


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## sourcefor (Feb 26, 2021)

chocobitz825 said:


> valid critique


That being said the slate bundle is a good deal!


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## chocobitz825 (Feb 26, 2021)

sourcefor said:


> That being said the slate bundle is a good deal!


I stopped using slate, but the value is absolutely there.


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## sourcefor (Feb 26, 2021)

chocobitz825 said:


> I stopped using slate, but the value is absolutely there.


Another good thing I may add is that the good thing about protools is that you can rent it for a month if you need to open an old session which is kind of cool, as I do not use protools anymore!


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## chocobitz825 (Feb 26, 2021)

sourcefor said:


> Another good thing I may add is that the good thing about protools is that you can rent it for a month if you need to open an old session which is kind of cool, as I do not use protools anymore!


Pro Tools is the worse offender for me. I hate using it, and I only have the subscription because I have to use it to prep stems and sessions for other people, and problems sometimes arise if we're not all on the most up-to-date versions. I definitely feel like their subscription model is the least generous and most like a hostage situation.


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## sourcefor (Feb 26, 2021)

chocobitz825 said:


> Pro Tools is the worse offender for me. I hate using it, and I only have the subscription because I have to use it to prep stems and sessions for other people, and problems sometimes arise if we're not all on the most up-to-date versions. I definitely feel like their subscription model is the least generous and most like a hostage situation.


Yes agreed...I stopped using protools a while ago when they stopped supporting my operating system and forced me to spend over$300 to upgrade!


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## David Kudell (Feb 26, 2021)

Adobe went subscription in 2011. So I’ve spent about $6,000 over the last 10 years.

Damn.


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## chocobitz825 (Feb 26, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> Adobe went subscription in 2011. So I’ve spent about $6,000 over the last 10 years.
> 
> Damn.


I've been surprised how many alternatives have popped up since then that try to also support adobe files.


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## David Kudell (Feb 26, 2021)

chocobitz825 said:


> I've been surprised how many alternatives have popped up since then that try to also support adobe files.


Yeah, I’m sure there are. But it literally pays my mortgage, so it’s not something you want to mess with really.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Feb 27, 2021)

chocobitz825 said:


> It might sound a bit cold, but why should a company prioritize hobbyists?


Because, when talking about DAWs, they - if they aren't Avid - have a customer base that is mainly hobbyists.


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## chocobitz825 (Feb 27, 2021)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Because, when talking about DAWs, they - if they aren't Avid - have a customer base that is mainly hobbyists.


I would love to see the breakdown on some of the daws for hobbyists and aspiring professional user numbers. Might give greater insight into the choices some of these developers make regarding subscription services.


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## Markrs (Feb 27, 2021)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Because, when talking about DAWs, they - if they aren't Avid - have a customer base that is mainly hobbyists.


Makes sense to me, there are probably millions of bedroom musicians/composers/producers/mixer. If I hazard a guess I would probably say it is probably a 10-1 ration of hobbiest to pros if not higher (a 100-1 or even 1000-1 would not shock me).

I will say that a lot of hobbiest listen to pros, so if the pros hate something it would probably have less hobbiests buying it. Which is why you get so many companies giving stuff to review to pros and looking for endorsements.


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## pixel (Feb 27, 2021)

If Steinberg would went subscription route then I would just stay with Cubase 10.5 because I can do everything that I need and I will need to produce finished music or audio assets. 
The last thing I need in my life is another monthly bill to pay. Being 35 years old, never ever having any bank credit/debt to pay back I'm absolutely fine with rent, utilities and internet monthly bills. I have all audio tools collected over the years which are my "ticket" to never need to subscribe to any DAW or plugin. 
We're heading to the point wjhere we will own nothing. Everything will be subscription based and then people will cry "oh, how it could happened that I give all my salary and I have nothing". I dont want to be another brick in the wall.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 27, 2021)

It feels like I’ve been subscribed to Logic since the 90s.


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## kitekrazy (Feb 27, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Makes sense to me, there are probably millions of bedroom musicians/composers/producers/mixer. If I hazard a guess I would probably say it is probably a 10-1 ration of hobbiest to pros if not higher (a 100-1 or even 1000-1 would not shock me).
> 
> I will say that a lot of hobbiest listen to pros, so if the pros hate something it would probably have less hobbiests buying it. Which is why you get so many companies giving stuff to review to pros and looking for endorsements.


I guess that would depend on how you define pros. Hobbyists often look for value. FL Studio is one of the most popular DAWs out there for the dance crowd. Reaper is another popular DAW. Endorsements seem to fit those end users who need to feel secure about the software they use.


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## dzilizzi (Feb 27, 2021)

What defines hobbyist vs pro? If you make any money doing music, does that make you a pro? Or just a hobbyist whose hobby makes money?


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## Markrs (Feb 27, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> What defines hobbyist vs pro? If you make any money doing music, does that make you a pro? Or just a hobbyist whose hobby makes money?


It is often hard to define the differences. I think of a pro that currently or previously made the majority of their income from music. A semi-pro as someone that makes regular income if not that much from music. Hobbiest for me is people that don't make money or little or not regular from music.

Now your abilities are not based on income and this is very crude but this is how I perceive the differences between pro, semi-pro and hobbiest.


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## ptram (Feb 27, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> Imagine buying a magazine subscription, but instead of them sending you a brand new issue every month, they send you another copy of the old issue, but with a few corrected typos and a different color font.


With Adobe InDesign, since subscription they have adjusted the tone of the UI each year. Together with some new templates, it's it.

Paolo


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## NYC Composer (Feb 28, 2021)

pixel said:


> If Steinberg would went subscription route then I would just stay with Cubase 10.5 because I can do everything that I need and I will need to produce finished music or audio assets.
> The last thing I need in my life is another monthly bill to pay. Being 35 years old, never ever having any bank credit/debt to pay back I'm absolutely fine with rent, utilities and internet monthly bills. I have all audio tools collected over the years which are my "ticket" to never need to subscribe to any DAW or plugin.
> We're heading to the point wjhere we will own nothing. Everything will be subscription based and then people will cry "oh, how it could happened that I give all my salary and I have nothing". I dont want to be another brick in the wall.


I’m not absolutely sure what I would do, but I’d likely also stay on Cubase 10.52 for a few years, because there’s nothing much I want fixed except for the giant video files that occur when you export videos. It would be nice to have export options but there are external programs to reduce size.

i know it’s possible because I stayed on Cubase 6 from 2011-2019 and got a LOT of music written.

Good idea for a thread, btw.


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## homie (Feb 28, 2021)

I'd jump ship if there would be subscription only.

I've never recovered from Adobe going subscription only. They had a monopoly at the time. That was a case of abuse of power if you ask me. Adobe will never get money from me again. I'm on CS6 till they disable activation for it. IMO they legally shouldn't be allowed to do that but i'm sure they will one day. They recently removed the application update files from their servers and refuse to hand them over to me (so i could make my own backup). Never got a mail warning me about that. Adobe is such a dislikable company in my book.

Holding my project files hostage? No thanks!


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## homie (Feb 28, 2021)

I'm somewhat relaxed regarding DAWs though. I can't imagine a DAW company would be stupid enough to go subscription only simply because none of them has a monopoly in that market. But yeah, let's see


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## chocobitz825 (Feb 28, 2021)

homie said:


> I'm somewhat relaxed regarding DAWs though. I can't imagine a DAW company would be stupid enough to go subscription only simply because none of them has a monopoly in that market. But yeah, let's see


*cough* pro tools


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## homie (Feb 28, 2021)

chocobitz825 said:


> *cough* pro tools


Ok lol, so they are the Adobe of audio software. Although there aren't really in the same postion as Adobe was. Jumping ship from Protools seems way easier to me. But they have their old user base they can milk i suppose. Protools is not something i'd ever consider anyways.


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## chocobitz825 (Feb 28, 2021)

homie said:


> Ok lol, so they are the Adobe of audio software. Although there aren't really in the same postion as Adobe was. Jumping ship from Protools seems way easier to me. But they have their old user base they can milk i suppose. Protools is not something i'd ever consider anyways.


I would say for most professionals they hold that position. Within my team and my home studio I can do fine with just studio one, but every time I’m recording in a studio for bands and orchestras or collaborating with people outside of my team, the standard tends to be pro tools. So I literally have a subscription to them solely for the purpose of opening and packaging pro tools sessions for others. If AAF files were more broadly used, I’d finely be done with avid.


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## homie (Mar 2, 2021)

chocobitz825 said:


> I would say for most professionals they hold that position. Within my team and my home studio I can do fine with just studio one, but every time I’m recording in a studio for bands and orchestras or collaborating with people outside of my team, the standard tends to be pro tools. So I literally have a subscription to them solely for the purpose of opening and packaging pro tools sessions for others. If AAF files were more broadly used, I’d finely be done with avid.


I mean mixing projects in it's simplest form are just a bunch of audio files. Do you have to share project files including all the single track adjustments in an editable state? In that case you must have all the same plugins too. Sounds impractial.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 2, 2021)

homie said:


> I mean mixing projects in it's simplest form are just a bunch of audio files. Do you have to share project files including all the single track adjustments in an editable state? In that case you must have all the same plugins too. Sounds impractial.


actually this process is extremely simple in studio one. While we have most of the same plugins, for anything thats not the same I can generally just throw in a stock plugin or just bounce the audio and send the project file as is to them. 

If i want to just send an audio file, but want to keep the audio parts, the plugin information and midi information, I could send them studio one's audioloop or musicloop files that basically package the entire part and its relevent track and fx plugin configurations. They drag that into the project and I've saved myself having to send them a whole project just to get them the relevent parts for that one track. This actually helped during a project we're doing now, as with each update, I can send them project files, loops, or even updated new projects where they can just import the relevant song data from the new project and all the information is kept in its editable state.

I dont often have to bounce audio to collaborate with them. very helpful doing things across 4 countries during a pandemic.


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## nikhollis (Mar 2, 2021)

Fortunately, Steinberg (Cubase) don't seem to be planning the subscription route, as someone who has spent a small fortune keeping up-to-date with (paid) releases, I am glad of this. 









Subscription for Cubase/Nuendo (future)


Will we switch to subscription method in the future? (monthly or annually) pro tools use it , there are even rumors that logic will subscribe in the future. I don’t know, but it’s very exciting to wonder what Steinberg thought about it.




forums.steinberg.net


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## doctoremmet (Mar 2, 2021)

...weeps...
But for different reasons


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## darkogav (Mar 4, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> What defines hobbyist vs pro? If you make any money doing music, does that make you a pro? Or just a hobbyist whose hobby makes money?


people that work in the industry are "pros". they usually use what the industry uses so they can get their work done. hence the use of ProTools is a given for anyone in film. they may use other tools as well somethings. I guess Dorico or something. I see Ableton is gaining ground outside of the EDM music makers though.


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## darkogav (Mar 4, 2021)

nikhollis said:


> Fortunately, Steinberg (Cubase) don't seem to be planning the subscription route, as someone who has spent a small fortune keeping up-to-date with (paid) releases, I am glad of this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it would really suck if they did. we spend good money on that elicencer dongle.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Mar 4, 2021)

darkogav said:


> it would really suck if they did. we spend good money on that elicencer dongle.


Well, ...


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## dzilizzi (Mar 4, 2021)

darkogav said:


> people that work in the industry are "pros". they usually use what the industry uses so they can get their work done. hence the use of ProTools is a given for anyone in film. they may use other tools as well somethings. I guess Dorico or something. I see Ableton is gaining ground outside of the EDM music makers though.


The problem is, in the last 10 years or so, computer music production has made it easier to become a "pro". Especially in the EDM community. The barriers to entry that used to be there - studio space, big soundboards that did the work, external FX, analog instruments, being actually able to play an instrument, etc... are mostly gone. So now people with minimal talent can be pros, because they make money from it? 

I don't know. Sometimes the difference between a hobby musician and a pro is hard to say.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 4, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> The problem is, in the last 10 years or so, computer music production has made it easier to become a "pro". Especially in the EDM community. The barriers to entry that used to be there - studio space, big soundboards that did the work, external FX, analog instruments, being actually able to play an instrument, etc... are mostly gone. So now people with minimal talent can be pros, because they make money from it?
> 
> I don't know. Sometimes the difference between a hobby musician and a pro is hard to say.


is it? if you make money from it as a significant amount of your income...you're a pro. Professional is a status, not a skill level. Plenty of shitty professionals out there.


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## doctoremmet (Mar 4, 2021)

chocobitz825 said:


> Plenty of shitty professionals out there.


I just found this really helpful chart, published by a well known consulting firm:


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 4, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I just found this really helpful chart, published by a well known consulting firm:


all the money i could be making if i just settled on 8 bar beats and cracked waves suites.....


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## doctoremmet (Mar 4, 2021)

chocobitz825 said:


> all the money i could be making if i just settled on 8 bar beats and cracked waves suites.....


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## RogiervG (Mar 4, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> But for different reasons


Nice play on words..


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 4, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Sometimes the difference between a hobby musician and a pro is hard to say.


"There are no shortcuts in music." - Either Wynton or Brandon Marsalis, I think Wynton


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## darkogav (Mar 4, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> The problem is, in the last 10 years or so, computer music production has made it easier to become a "pro". Especially in the EDM community. The barriers to entry that used to be there - studio space, big soundboards that did the work, external FX, analog instruments, being actually able to play an instrument, etc... are mostly gone. So now people with minimal talent can be pros, because they make money from it?
> 
> I don't know. Sometimes the difference between a hobby musician and a pro is hard to say.


"pro" can really mean anything. a DJ that does weddings and slugs her/his equipment and small PA around every weekend is a "pro" in the sense that she/he earns a regular income from the gig. 

in my post, a pro is someone who works in the mainstream media and entertainment industry contributing to creating content. they are usually more concerned with using tools that will allow them to seamlessly work on projects instead of participating in DAW wars contests.


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## Drago (Mar 4, 2021)

I would leave immediately for another DAW that is not subscription


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## rnb_2 (Mar 4, 2021)

For anybody with Reason 11 who is still kicking themselves for not upgrading to Suite before it was discontinued, https://www.jrrshop.com/propellerhead-reason-11-suite-upgrade (JRRShop has the upgrade on sale for $174) (instead of $249).


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## CoffeeLover (Mar 4, 2021)

Reaper is always open and would let me in.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 4, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> "There are no shortcuts in music." - Either Wynton or Brandon Marsalis, I think Wynton


This is what I am saying. There are a lot of very well trained "hobbyists" that couldn't make a living doing music. So they do something else. So even though they write better than John Williams (okay, that's a reach) they aren't a pro by definition because they don't make money composing?

Then you have those EDM guys whose only talent is buying chord progressions off the internet and adding a beat. (plus lots of flashing lights) Okay, so technically, some are talented. I guess like anything up for public consumption, it's a coin toss as to if you will be successful or not.


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## allen-garvey (Mar 4, 2021)

People always talk about the downsides of subscriptions, but what about the upsides? Learning a new DAW is not only a big time commitment, but also a big financial commitment. Reason 11 suite was $600, Live 11 suite is $749 and Cubase 11 Pro is $587.98. Some people are happy with the first DAW they buy, but for those that aren't they can end up stuck with it since it is cheaper to keep upgrading it than to switch. 

If you didn't have these big upfront costs, what might you do different? Would you use a different DAW just for 1 film, 1 album or 1 track to get out of a creative rut? Maybe you wouldn't have any primary DAW at all and just switch every year to keep things fresh. You wouldn't see newbie questions like "I bought DAW X. Did I make a mistake? Should I have bought DAW Y?". And DAW makers would be more accountable. If Studio One 6 comes out and blows Cubase out of the water, Steinberg can be comfortable knowing that most users won't pay $300 to crossgrade and will just wait for Cubase 12. But in a subscription world, people can cancel their subscriptions. Netflix knows you can always cancel and go to Hulu/HBO Max/Disney plus, so they always have to be on top of their game.


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## easyrider (Mar 4, 2021)

allen-garvey said:


> People always talk about the downsides of subscriptions, but what about the upsides? Learning a new DAW is not only a big time commitment, but also a big financial commitment. Reason 11 suite was $600, Live 11 suite is $749 and Cubase 11 Pro is $587.98. Some people are happy with the first DAW they buy, but for those that aren't they can end up stuck with it since it is cheaper to keep upgrading it than to switch.
> 
> If you didn't have these big upfront costs, what might you do different? Would you use a different DAW just for 1 film, 1 album or 1 track to get out of a creative rut? Maybe you wouldn't have any primary DAW at all and just switch every year to keep things fresh. You wouldn't see newbie questions like "I bought DAW X. Did I make a mistake? Should I have bought DAW Y?". And DAW makers would be more accountable. If Studio One 6 comes out and blows Cubase out of the water, Steinberg can be comfortable knowing that most users won't pay $300 to crossgrade and will just wait for Cubase 12. But in a subscription world, people can cancel their subscriptions. Netflix knows you can always cancel and go to Hulu/HBO Max/Disney plus, so they always have to be on top of their game.


Buy cubase...don’t like it sell it....buy Studio one don’t like it sell it...


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## allen-garvey (Mar 4, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Buy cubase...don’t like it sell it....buy Studio one don’t like it sell it...


What if you only want to use it for a few months, either as a trial or for 1 project? Even if you sell it you are going to take at least a $50 hit on what you paid, and until it is sold your money is tied up in it. See this ad https://vi-control.net/community/threads/toronto-area-only-cubase-11-pro-usb-e-licenser.106384/ I don't know how much Cubase charges in CAN, but it looks to be almost $150 discount over new.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 4, 2021)

A lot of subscriptions require a year's contract.


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## allen-garvey (Mar 4, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> A lot of subscriptions require a year's contract.


Pro Tools, Reason and Studio One all have a discount for subscribing yearly but let you subscribe monthly. Bitwig you have to renew for a whole year but it is debatable if it is considered a subscription.


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## nikhollis (Mar 4, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Buy cubase...don’t like it sell it....buy Studio one don’t like it sell it...


Plus, Cubase and I am sure many others, give free trials.


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## easyrider (Mar 4, 2021)

allen-garvey said:


> What if you only want to use it for a few months, either as a trial or for 1 project? Even if you sell it you are going to take at least a $50 hit on what you paid, and until it is sold your money is tied up in it. See this ad https://vi-control.net/community/threads/toronto-area-only-cubase-11-pro-usb-e-licenser.106384/ I don't know how much Cubase charges in CAN, but it looks to be almost $150 discount over new.


I don’t know why you would want to...there is no perfect DAW....try them all then stick with the one you like best and actually learn it....

Jumping DAWs all the time is not productive....a DAW is a tool and should be a vehicle for creativity....I couldn’t think of anything worse than jumping DAWs all The time and learning how to do simple tasks again depending on how code Was originally written.

I tried them all, Pro Tools, Cubase , Reason, Reaper, Mix Bus etc...settled on Studio One.I have no interest in learning any others now....I have the workflow I want perfect integration with Faderport 16 and Console 1. Also Using Studio one Remote on iPad alongside this kit with Macros still makes me moist....

A DAW is a tool to get things done.....And like I have said before, the best DAW in the world is the one you know...


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## allen-garvey (Mar 4, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I don’t know why you would want to...there is no perfect DAW....try them all then stick with the one you like best and actually learn it....
> 
> Jumping DAWs all the time is not productive....a DAW is a tool and should be a vehicle for creativity....I couldn’t think of anything worse than jumping DAWs all The time and learning how to do simple tasks again depending on how code Was originally written.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying everyone should or would want to do that, but it should be an option. People use different guitars or different synths, or they even learn completely new instruments because it helps them produce different music, so why not different DAWs? Also, how much did it end up costing you to try all of them? Not a loaded question, just curious.


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## allen-garvey (Mar 4, 2021)

nikhollis said:


> Plus, Cubase and I am sure many others, give free trials.


Everything I've seen has trials, but it is generally a month, and you might want to use it more than that. Ableton is 90 days, which is pretty generous. Cubase only lets you trial Elements unless you buy the elicenser first. 

I had a trial for Studio One and it ran out, but I wanted to use it for another project. Normally it would cost $300 to crossgrade, but instead I subscribed to Sphere for a month and it only cost me $15. So the subscription service saved me $285. It also made me more likely to either buy the crossgrade in the future or resubscribe to Sphere, so it was good for Presonus as well.


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## easyrider (Mar 4, 2021)

allen-garvey said:


> I'm not saying everyone should or would want to do that, but it should be an option. People use different guitars or different synths, or they even learn completely new instruments because it helps them produce different music, so why not different DAWs? Also, how much did it end up costing you to try all of them? Not a loaded question, just curious.


Cause a Daw is just Daw....instruments like Kontakt and Spitfire work the same across DAWs....along with Other virtual instruments so I don’t see why using another DAW would inspire creativity....

Protools First was free, Reaper was free, Cubase I still have but need to sell on...Mix bus was $29.Reason I still use in studio one as a reason rack....

Studio one cross grade from another DAW is $199 when on sale....I got the EDU version of Studio one Pro for $54....


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 4, 2021)

allen-garvey said:


> Everything I've seen has trials, but it is generally a month, and you might want to use it more than that. Ableton is 90 days, which is pretty generous. Cubase only lets you trial Elements unless you buy the elicenser first.
> 
> I had a trial for Studio One and it ran out, but I wanted to use it for another project. Normally it would cost $300 to crossgrade, but instead I subscribed to Sphere for a month and it only cost me $15. So the subscription service saved me $285. It also made me more likely to either buy the crossgrade in the future or resubscribe to Sphere, so it was good for Presonus as well.


I agree with your point. Other than Reaper, the free options are often limited. Studio One's free version doesnt let you use everything you would need to do a full project seriously. However, Studio One Sphere gives you everything including all their instruments and plugins. For some people, this is great way to dive into a daw and really get your head around it before deciding to continue or jump to something with a better workflow.

I have cubase, studio one, pro tools, and logic x....and ableton now that i think about it, all because collaborators have them. It is not cheap. Subscription has its place so long as its meant for the benefit of the user, and not used as a chain to keep users locked into a system.


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## allen-garvey (Mar 5, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Cause a Daw is just Daw....instruments like Kontakt and Spitfire work the same across DAWs....along with Other virtual instruments so I don’t see why using another DAW would inspire creativity....
> 
> Protools First was free, Reaper was free, Cubase I still have but need to sell on...Mix bus was $29.Reason I still use in studio one as a reason rack....
> 
> Studio one cross grade from another DAW is $199 when on sale....I got the EDU version of Studio one Pro for $54....


Nice that you were able to get everything so cheap. I use Reason, but might eventually move to Studio One and use Reason with the rack plugin. For right now though, S1 doesn't have anything I absolutely need, and I'm waiting to see what Reason 12 brings.

I agree with you that if all you're doing is recording and using external VSTs most DAWs are pretty much the same, but every one has unique features, instruments and effects and if you use them they can influence your music. When I used to have a Mac I used Reason for some tracks and Logic and Reason via rewire for others. When I used Logic the tracks always sounded different, since I was using Logic's drummer and built in instruments, effects and loops. Live 11 has unique granular effects and custom instruments by Spitfire and I don't want to switch DAWs but I would like to use it for a track or too. I could use the trial, but then once that is over if I want to continue I would have to pay $750. If they had a subscription service I would pay $15-$30 for 1-2 months, and then in a year or so I might do that again.

Workflow can also make a difference. Reason only has up to 8 send effects, has no track folders, and the shared rack means things start to get unwieldy once you have a lot of tracks and devices. This nudges you into a certain workflow where you start from an empty project, use insert effects over send effects and try to use as few tracks as possible. In comparison, something like Studio One which has track folders, unlimited send effects and no shared rack makes it easier to have a giant template with everything you own in it. Starting from an empty project vs a giant template is going to have an effect on what the final result sounds like.


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## easyrider (Mar 5, 2021)

allen-garvey said:


> Nice that you were able to get everything so cheap. I use Reason, but might eventually move to Studio One and use Reason with the rack plugin. For right now though, S1 doesn't have anything I absolutely need, and I'm waiting to see what Reason 12 brings.
> 
> I agree with you that if all you're doing is recording and using external VSTs most DAWs are pretty much the same, but every one has unique features, instruments and effects and if you use them they can influence your music. When I used to have a Mac I used Reason for some tracks and Logic and Reason via rewire for others. When I used Logic the tracks always sounded different, since I was using Logic's drummer and built in instruments, effects and loops. Live 11 has unique granular effects and custom instruments by Spitfire and I don't want to switch DAWs but I would like to use it for a track or too. I could use the trial, but then once that is over if I want to continue I would have to pay $750. If they had a subscription service I would pay $15-$30 for 1-2 months, and then in a year or so I might do that again.
> 
> Workflow can also make a difference. Reason only has up to 8 send effects, has no track folders, and the shared rack means things start to get unwieldy once you have a lot of tracks and devices. This nudges you into a certain workflow where you start from an empty project, use insert effects over send effects and try to use as few tracks as possible. In comparison, something like Studio One which has track folders, unlimited send effects and no shared rack makes it easier to have a giant template with everything you own in it. Starting from an empty project vs a giant template is going to have an effect on what the final result sounds like.


But you can start off from an empty project in your current DAW if you choose not to load in your massive template....


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## allen-garvey (Mar 5, 2021)

easyrider said:


> But you can start off from an empty project in your current DAW if you choose not to load in your massive template....


What I meant is, I currently use Reason, so having a massive template is not really an option, so I always start from an empty project. If I used something else I might have a massive template or I might not, but if I did it would make a difference.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 5, 2021)

What if?...


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## iMovieShout (Mar 5, 2021)

Banquet said:


> I'm a Cubase Pro user, and if Steinberg went subscription I'd use another DAW. I hate subscription models. EVERYBODY wants a piece of my monthly income to rent me some software that up-until then I could have owned. Now some things (like Cubase) I do upgrade and that has a yearly cost... but I get to decide if and when. For years I was on the Adobe subscription. £50 a month for everything but all I wanted was photoshop, Lightroom and Premiere. Over 3 years I worked out I'd made 21 videos, so each video had cost me £70 (after taking out the Photoshop £9 part) and in the last year I'd made only 3 videos, costing a whopping £164 each. I couldn't justify that so I reduced my sub to the £9 for photoshop and bought Final Cut Pro for £200. With that I get all updates for free and no future payments. But I'd spent 3 years learning Premiere, paid a about £1500 and now can't use it, can't open previous projects... £1500 down the drain. I would never do a subscription model again.
> 
> I also think subscriptions make developers lazy, because they are already getting your money and don't need updates to be quite so full of features. Sure, people may unsubscribe if continuous updates are really poor, but for the most part, the money is already in the bank so the pressure is off. For all my £50 a month payments to Adobe, I'd experienced some really rage inducing bugs in Premiere, whereas Fincal Cut Pro works really well for me.
> 
> That being said, I really like rent to own. They seem like the way forward to me.


I'm a mainly Nuendo 11 and ProTools user, and occasionally Ableton.
For writing music, I prefer to buy outright and know that I have control. So when Avid converted to subscription I decided to only buy ProTools outright. I upgrade every 2 or 3 years to the latest version and will also buy the support plan every couple of years to ensure its up to date. I'd probably do the same if Steinberg introduce subscription, or would revert back to just using ProTools. 
For a DAW vendor to go subscription only, would surely lose many loyal customers and clients for the same reason. Yes it makes it easier for hobbyists and entry-level customers to get in on the act, but its not likely to be a good long term investment for those that use it day in day out - though that depends on the payment plan / model.


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