# Dilemma guys, advices appreciated!



## IvanP (Aug 2, 2013)

Hi, 

Been offered a Flick, ultra low budget action movie to be sold in USA.
They surprisingly got a Well known actor as lead. The movie will probably go straight to DVD (think about sharknado kind of flick but in a bourne setting)

Budget for music: a low 4 digit figure package for a buyout, which means (EDIT): I author the music with my PRO and all the rest is theirs forever (publishing, mechanicals, license exclusivity, etc)

With this buget, I can only offer a sampled based product. Deadline: one month. From reading the script, music will heavily need to boost a lot of shots that, for budget reasons, wont come as good as they are on paper. 

If I spend half of the budget in people helping me with programming, mixing, I'll br basicallh doing th music for free.
If I have to do everything, quality might be compromised with such a deadline. 
That is what I told the producer. But their budget is so tight that I cant even get a plane to do a proper spotting session with the director (not overseas).

I dont want to seem a greedy bastard, nor lose something that may (or not) be intersting for my credits. 
I've done stuff for TV, but I'm not known in film business. 

I'm waiting for a counteroffer from the producers, but they'll be prolly looking around for someone else.

What would you guys do? 

Thank you a lot!


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## Walid F. (Aug 2, 2013)

is your schedule full? or basically empty, meaning you can take the job and come out with a product that's mediocre quality with only 1 month's time?

i am doing a feature film too soon for $5k minimum (more if crowdfunding and potential investors chime in with dough), and by the length of the script it will be approximately 2hrs long. this is because i think it would be a very good credit to have, it's a bit of money, and a fun experience hopefully. but i do not have that crazy deadline you have... 

it's tricky, man. only you really know if you want to. can you sacrifice that time?

one question, how can they hold the rights for royalties? i thought if you were in a PRO you got royalties for whatever public event/domain your music was being played - same for movies. because if you got royalties for this, it might be well worth it i guess - i heard royalties are what keeps composers alive economically in the long run.

W


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## IvanP (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*

Thank you!

My shedule is fine in that frame, it's the fact that If i have to do everything myself, quality might be compromised. Write, rewrite 4 minutes of action music a day is feasable, but do we really need, as composer, to do fast food music that I won't be able to promote myself or evrn be proud of it? Thats my dilemma  

Also, the fact that I can't recover anything besides cable emission (thinking 1-2 times aired a year maximum, right?) and that they are really closed on not negotiating a share is a bit tricky. I cant even release the OST

I would get money from airing on TVs, but not from mechanical. So, a maximum of 1.000 $ probably from cable around the world, no more (based on some other friends' similar gigs)

So yes, I'm wondering if such a credit is worth the gig, solely for a name in IMDB


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## FriFlo (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*

IMO: No ...
I would never score a full feature film with lots of music in it for that kind of money. I get a low 4 figure for doing small industry commercials for youtube. Stick to the minimum rate of $500 per minute of music. And that is, if you keep the rights! With total buyout it must be more.
How much energy and time would you put into this? When you want it to become really good, you will work long and hard for that much music! If it is a flick it won't make you a star or well known! It will only make you well known as someone who can easily be exploited by producers ...


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## IvanP (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*

Thank you! 

That was exactly my budget proposal. And my final conclusion too, but got assaulted by the doubt that I might be being too picky or lose a good chance to be attached to a known cast.

That gig will be insane in terms of trying to keep production and quality within that deadline. Exhaustion will come after it and not sure we'll all be satisfied. 

And of course, the fact that I will be that cheap for ever for these guys...


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## Walid F. (Aug 2, 2013)

in lieu of these facts i would not have done it. what is an IMDB credit anyways? just a bit of text.. k maybe a bit more  but still. 

they take away too many of your rights for this to be OK for that price.


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## IvanP (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*

Thank you, Walid,

IMDB is where you keep production credits online. Not eveything you do might be listed, but if you're attached to any pro production and need to prove it to anyone, that may be a fast way to show it:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1875879/


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## Walid F. (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*



IvanP @ Fri Aug 02 said:


> Thank you, Walid,
> 
> IMDB is where you keep production credits online. Not eveything you do might be listed, but if you're attached to any pro production and need to prove it to anyone, that may be a fast way to show it:
> 
> http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1875879/



yea i know, what i meant with my comment was "what is an imdb credit really? it's not that much !" meaning maybe you spend too much work for something that's not worth the pain!

W


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## IvanP (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*

Haha sorry about that,

Yes, you're right indeed.

Thank you for your comments, I do appreciate them!


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## dinerdog (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*

5K is a low minimum, but there are some factors that would help to decide if the job is worth it. 

At that price you should absolutely keep the writers share and 'maybe' split the publishing with them.

Do they have any kind of music editor or music supervisor? If they don't, it will be a bit more work for you doing laybacks and such. If they do, spotting can be done over the phone if everyone's a pro. There shouldn't be any HUGE debates on where music should or shouldn't go.

The IMDB credit can be helpful sometimes just to have something current.

If the deadline is hard, that can be blessing as far as approval goes, especially if they like your music already,

If they still won't budge, you should feel okay about telling them you can't deliver the quality you want on that budget. Leave it in their court and be at ease with that. Even in these times, best not to be known as "the cheap guy". My2.


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## IvanP (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*



dinerdog @ Fri Aug 02 said:


> 5K is a low minimum, but there are some factors that would help to decide if the job is worth it.
> 
> At that price you should absolutely keep the writers share and 'maybe' split the publishing with them.
> 
> .



That was my offer back. Nope.

Also, some of the terms of the contract, regarding liabilties and etc were pretty scary.

They didn't seem eager to negotiate anything, really. 

They like my music indeed, but only really listened to real symphonic recordings. Intold them that sample based music wouldln't be that sophisticated, they said ok, but can'be sure how to cope with the sound they have in mind, which is real recordings stuff...

Also, no music supervisor or editor that I know of, meaning that I would get all the edits as well. Also, the script features non incidental music (long scenes with different club musics in the background, etc). Without any budget to sync songs that know of, I fear I might even have to produce that as well while composing all the action stuff (not inthe contract though, but tell them no in the middle of such a tight post-po and take a picture of their smile) 

But hey, they have an academy award nominee in it. Worth the price of slavery?


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## dinerdog (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*

Ha - not worth it at all. That Academy award winning actor will be saying "you got this music for how much?" and not in a positive way.

It's can be liberating to have those times when you establish your bottom line. Otherwise it IS a race to the bottom.


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## IvanP (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*

Good points, dinerdog,

Thank you,

Ivan


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## MarkS_Comp (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*

I wouldnt do it either. Unless, of course, you feel your time and talent are practically worthless.

And what's with them keepeing the writers share? It should be: they keep the publishing, and you keep the writers. If they want to take the writers from you, then they dont value you too much, and are just plain greedy. Then again, if this never airs, that's a non-issue.


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## IvanP (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*

Thank you guys! 

I guess I'll have mixed feeligs for a while, but feel much better now haha

Still, I think I confused terms in english. 

They grant me the authoring of music, which means I get to register it with my PRO. Thats it. But I've barely received money from US cable TV, having had two series on cable.
So I dont think I can recoup a lot in this sense.

They keep all the rest. Publishing, mechanicals and the license for over 70 years after my death.


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## rgames (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*

Here's a credo for any small business person:

1. Low Price
2. High Quality
3. Fast

Pick two.

rgames


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## Martin K (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*

Hi Ivan!

My suggestion would be if you really want to do it and have the time...do it  
If you have a bad gut feeling about it...because of the money or anything else..I would say don't do it.

An OT question: Somebody mentioned $500 as a minimum rate per minute...is that a minimum rate set by a union/ASCAP/BMI or something? I'm just starting out and wondering if this is a generally understood minimum rate in the industry.

Thanks.

best,
Martin


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## Uorbit (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*

If you have time and have a good feeling about the project and the people involved then you should do it.

With that kind of budget it will be frustrating. But, several good things will happen...

1. You will gain more experience working with talent (in this case a Director). Learn how to solve problems and communicate effectively.

2. You will establish a relationship with another creative person that can potentially be rewarding in the future.

3. You will be forced to tighten up your workflow and learn how to work faster because YOU HAVE TO.

Best of luck...

Try to keep part of the publishing... not an unreasonable request for this budget...


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## MarkS_Comp (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*



Martin K @ Fri Aug 02 said:


> An OT question: Somebody mentioned $500 as a minimum rate per minute...is that a minimum rate set by a union/ASCAP/BMI or something? I'm just starting out and wondering if this is a generally understood minimum rate in the industry.



There is no industry standard when it comes to rates for scoring films - they are all over the place, and rates are nto set by the PROs, nor the union. The union sets rates only for it's members- not for others.

And $500 as a minimum rate per minute? That's living in a dreamworld. Say it's an ultra low budget 90 min film, that requires 80 min of music. That's $40,000 for the score. You think you are going to get that? Not that it cant happen, but it won't. How much do you think you would get to score films on the syfy ch? Under 10, I can tell you that much.


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## Folmann (Aug 2, 2013)

The biggest dilemma here may not be the specific movie, nor your music for it. The biggest dilemma is the fact that proposals like this completely diminish overall quality of the lower tier part of the industry - cause when people keep on accepting projects like this two things happen:

1. The quality drops - cause nobody can make a living of it.

2. Next time they ask you for something you have already priced yourself for virtually free.

So do yourself - and the community a favor - and ask what you think you are worth - instead of blemishing your reputation and bringing down an already broken industry in the process.


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## IvanP (Aug 2, 2013)

Folmann @ Sat Aug 03 said:


> The biggest dilemma here may not be the specific movie, nor your music for it. The biggest dilemma is the fact that proposals like this completely diminish overall quality of the lower tier part of the industry - cause when people keep on accepting projects like this two things happen:
> 
> 1. The quality drops - cause nobody can make a living of it.
> 
> ...



Dear Troels,

I know very well what I'm worth and send them a budget accordingly as they asked me too. Got this fine offer back instead.

I turned down 3 "projects" like that so far this year, only without any intersting cast or story like this time. 

How many can I afford to keep turning down and keep saying I'm a film composer?

Like I'd be the one to blame for this situation!


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## j_kranz (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*

My gut reaction is the same as others here... that's way too low for scoring this without retaining the rights.

BUT... one question that has not been asked... which is usually a good litmus test on these sorts of dilemas in our business... Have you seen any footage yet (assuming they're already in post)? If the film turns out amazing then obviously it might be worth your while as a 'calling card' project to help lead you to bigger and better things.

My guess however is that if they're low-balling you, they likely are skimping all over the place... and a film that looks horrible is definitely not worth a minute of your time at that rate.

I'd say its within your right to request to at least see a rough cut of the film before signing on.


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## Akshara (Aug 3, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*



IvanP @ Fri Aug 02 said:


> I turned down 3 "projects" like that so far this year, only without any intersting cast or story like this time.
> 
> How many can I afford to keep turning down and keep saying I'm a film composer?


While reading through the thread, this point jumped out to me, Ivan. It sounds like your inner voice may be tuning into something important about the decision, on a deeper level. On the surface, it may seem like it has nothing to do with anything or is an irrational self doubt that should be ignored. Yet I believe that everything that happens in our lives is part of our dialogue with life, with our own nature. Follow your inner truth. Forget the money and credit, as that seems to not be what this decision is really about, at least not for you. Would it be okay to not be a film composer? Do you really want to work in the film industry?

Because there is a truth that, in any field, no matter how hard one works or how talented one is, there are only so many opportunities, so many moments of fortune, which appear in one's path. And time moves ever forward.

If we really truly want something, and it is placed before us, then seize it now and go all in. Yet if deep down, we truly don't want what is being placed before us, then do not pick it up, as it will surely bite. We have to trust that our inner truth knows which is right for us, even if it doesn't make sense.



IvanP @ Fri Aug 02 said:


> What would you guys do?


As described on the surface, I would probably walk away. Yet pride can be a funny and subtle thing, and only seen clearly in hindsight. I don't presume a future of endless opportunity anymore; on the other hand, our time on this earth is precious. Some things are genuinely a distraction or unworthy of our time and attention; yet with some things the mind just can not see the fabric underneath and how it can affect our lives or the lives of others. That's why we have to trust in and follow our inner truth and use that as our compass, wherever it leads. Whatever you choose, Ivan, I hope that it leads you to happiness.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 3, 2013)

Terrific post/advice Akshara!!


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## IvanP (Aug 3, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*

Akshara, that was a beautiful post and I really thank you for that. 

It is much deeper, indeed, than a question of a contract. 

Do I want to be a film composer? That's the only thing I want to do. 
I won't go into details, but, in order to be able to try and make a living of it, I had to sacrifice a lot of things, (I started music very late) take a lot of painful decisions in the way and push, push, push a lot of rocks in the middle of the way, not directly music related (yeah, who hasn't)

At a certain point, I had to stop and ask myself the question of whether I was becoming another Sysyphus, where I would be pushing a rock into eternity. 

Do I want to be a film composer? I ask this question to myself everyday. Hell yes. 

The few moments where I have been on a podium, conducting my music, putting life, with the help of musicians, to notes that I have written on paper, have been incredibly unique, satisfying, magical, up to the point that, during the recording of one cue, last year, I took off a few seconds on my conducting chair while control room was fixing a couple of things, realized how much I was enjoying being there, in that moment, that I almost started crying in front of everybody. 

Now. The real part. Spain is in ruins. Spanish Film industry just got as close, probably, as what was the situation during the soviet Union. 

Producers have started having problems with payments. Composers, always on the end of the production chain, seemed like the perfect scapegoat to start with unpaid bills and getting salary cuts. 

We have gone from being cool to ask for 20.000 € for composing music to a picture to 4.000 - 6.000 €. Composers started breaking prices and accepting ridiculously low deals. I remember the 1st moment I said not to a movie that was offered to me, some years ago, for 5.000 €, that I turned down. There was no interesting script either and my schedule was full, so that wasn't too hard to say. 

This year, I have been offered 100 € twice for a Spot and 3 different movies with absolutely no budget at all. Producers, aware of this situation, have started going greedy and asking for full buyouts (including intellectual property) while keep on lowering the composing fees. I got a director that suggested me that I could make his movie if I paid everything, including recording the score with an orchestra. 

Do I want to be a film composer? Yes. But I also need to make a living. 

En vue of this uprising situation, I, along with a few spanish fellow composers, started conversations on how we should stand up to prevent this from going even worse. Since we're not unionized, we concluded that there's little we can do to prevent prices from being broken. 
Some composers either have flown away from Spain or decided to ask what they're worth and haven't been working for the past 5 years. Meanwhile, prices keep going down and contractual conditions getting worse. 

So, to anyone saying that we're running our reputation by asking in this board for some advice, I would say that reading the international news a little more would be wise as well. Situations aren't easy these days for some people, as we have already seen on some posts in this forum, specially in Europe. 

Which comes to this part. Why did I ask for advice if I'm so passionate and willing to work? 
Because, when, finally, a good project finally seemed to finally arrive, it turns out that there will always be someone willing to push you to the limit so that he can maximize his profit. Well, that's what's about running a business, isn't it?

What was a project thought with a budget with orchestra and a nice production has been cut to a sampled based product. 
I can understand that. All the money has gone to cast the stars, the action sequences and etc. One cannot stop fearing and wondering how much is it really going to be left for post-production by the time shooting will be over (Shooting begins in a few days). 

With such a bare minimum for music (producer has been humble enough to admit that and apologize), one would imagine that you could get, at least, some benefits (half the publishing, mechanical rights, releasing the soundtrack, etc). No. 
Which means that you are getting only that package and need to produce with samples, in a month, what was originally meant to be as a nice, real, orchestral production with a proper team. Which means trying to mock an american blockbuster with minimum assets. 

So. What did I ask myself: Ok, this is the best deal you're getting in your country, unless you don't want to work. But, under these conditions, can I do a good job? 
On another side, I could not care a thing about quality of music, say yes to the gig, put some Action Strings, loops and Percussion and get the paycheck, hoping that, hopefully, nobody will notice how uninspired your work is.

This is not me. I'm someone that would spend 20 hours a day enjoying what I do, trying to get it as good as possible for my client. Because I absolutely LOVE my work. 
But yes, there is also a big question of pride.
Because I know that, in order to try and give them the quality they want, I would need to exhaust myself and spend a good part of the package in having a decent workflow. This means I will be left almost with nothing for paying my bills AND a huge concern whether I can really do a good job so everybody will be satisfied. 

Knowing that all of this comes from the uprising greediness of film industry, I had to stop and think whether accepting this deal is hurting me more, and my colleagues, in the long term than having a slice of bread for one month and a nice credit on 2013's IMDB. One thing is for sure. Eventually, someone will take this gig and do the job. 

I said no to a full daily teaching offer in order to be able to do this project and another one coming next that just got down (yeah, bummer!). Projects aren't raining these days. So, am I plain stupid by not getting it? 
Maybe, but I love so much what I do that I took a risk and kept on choosing the composing road. 
But does this mean I have to accept such low working conditions? 
I can't be satisfied with any work I can produce working under these conditions, which are more close to composing slavery than enjoyment. But that's the work that there is nowadays, at least in my country. 

So, my main concern is easy...
can I make a good job so that they'll be satisfied under these conditions? It will never sound as the initial project they have in mind, so...what can I do? 
Will I be satisfied of my work under these conditions? No way. This is composer's exploitment at work. I can picture more pain than enjoyment. But it's either being a film composer or not being one today. It's either composing for picture or not composing at all.

The fact that I am openly asking for advice is not for ruining reputation, or contribute to ruining an industry. Totally the opposite. The "easy" thing would have been to say yes, take the job, shut up and hide the pain and then boast my ego of having a nice name attached to that movie and act as if I was also invited to the parties in case it works, or say nothing in case it doesn't. 

Instead, I decided to expose myself and ask for advice in this situation because there is a lot in this that I'm thinking of. Pride, Work, all the effort I've (we've) been doing so far and, specially, Ethics VS making a living and paying bills. 

At least, to me, it seems like a really difficult decision. 

Thank you, so far, for all your answers, I really appreciate them. 

Best regards, 

Ivan


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## Walid F. (Aug 3, 2013)

sad read, my friend. very sad. it's quite a fragile industry, and it's snowballing to catastrophy, economy-wise for us composers. just look at the guys at LA...

anyways, "compose or not compose" - it's not that simple i feel. it defeats the purpose you had set out for this in the first place - to have fun and to make a living out of your valuable skills.



> I got a director that suggested me that I could make his movie if I paid everything, including recording the score with an orchestra.



hahahahah. sorry, this is just too damn sad. people, man. people.

W


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## impressions (Aug 3, 2013)

Call me stupid but I turned down a low 5 digits film gig, because i was in a low 4 digits gig which wasn't even a film.
I was having fun, and the bigger gig wasn't gonna get me good credits anyway. and it would mean crazy commitment for 1.5 month with time I didn't really have.
I really needed the money but it would mean I will suck at my job terribly, So I had to turn one of them down.

My main motivation for this choice is because you never know who is going to hear your music, so it really matters how good you are, because when the break comes that's when the real money comes in. not all those low tier stuff.

I would recommend also to try theater ivan, its not like film but its insanely rewarding at times, and some guys really do well financially from it.

p.s.
sorry it wasn't exactly like that, just remembered. I told the director I wanted a 5 figure budget for the music. or else I won't do it. and he only agreed for a high 4 digits( in dollars).


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## germancomponist (Aug 3, 2013)

*Re: HUGE dilemma guys, advices appreciated!*



j_kranz @ Sat Aug 03 said:


> My gut reaction is the same as others here... that's way too low for scoring this without retaining the rights.
> 
> BUT... one question that has not been asked... which is usually a good litmus test on these sorts of dilemas in our business... Have you seen any footage yet (assuming they're already in post)? If the film turns out amazing then obviously it might be worth your while as a 'calling card' project to help lead you to bigger and better things.
> 
> ...



+1


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## Akshara (Aug 3, 2013)

IvanP @ Sat Aug 03 said:


> At least, to me, it seems like a really difficult decision.


Very meaningful and deeply felt, Ivan. This is the kind of decision that defines a person. One of my mentors would have said that this is what separates the 1% from everyone else. And this holds true either way, whether following the path of ambition or the path of integrity.



IvanP @ Sat Aug 03 said:


> Do I want to be a film composer? That's the only thing I want to do.


This is clearly stated. Then from my perspective, even with all of the difficulties and pressures, doing the film would be the better choice. For you and for your community as well. You can't improve the industry if you're not in it. See it as a crucible, bring your A game to the table and do your best to elevate the film and to touch those involved.

To a different person, or with a less high profile project, I'd likely be saying something very different. But you're right there, man. And I for one would like to see you make it.


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## Synesthesia (Aug 3, 2013)

Also, don't forget that a blockbuster style film needn't imply one particular route:

http://www.grusin.net/the_firm.htm

A $42m film that grossed $262m worldwide, scored entirely with solo piano.

I also believe - as others here - that there are a lot of issues involved in this particular situation, and you've received some great advice so far, IMO you should definitely be retaining the master rights and publishing, you can give the film company an in perpetuity license in all media worldwide which would cover them: then you could potentially earn a bit more from CD rights etc down the line, and secondary usage.

But maybe there is a way to score this project thinking outside the box like Sydney Pollack and Dave Grusin did with The Firm..?


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## Patrick de Caumette (Aug 3, 2013)

Hi Ivan,
sorry to hear about the current working conditions in Spain...
I do not know how old you are, and whether or not you have a family to provide for, but Spain is a member of the EU and as such, you have the opportunity to work anywhere in Europe (as you well know)
I would make a point of hitting London, Paris, Berlin regularly to network and try to get work there, where the conditions are probably better.
You can still produce from Spain, but i'd try to get jobs where the chances of decent employment are stronger...

The people you are describing sound like scumbags BTW...

Best of luck and keep your spirits up.
Talent always finds a way!


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## Dean (Aug 4, 2013)

Hey Ivan,

Sounds like this film project is already teaching you something invaluable,..what more could it teach you if you let it?

Now that you've thought the whole thing through its time to listen to the voice that really counts,that one that Akshara eluded to,if you can do something else for a day or two and let your mind settle,then let your instinct make the choice from here,.the answer will come to you if you listen,.......follow the music or follow the money.

In this case there is very little money to follow so that just leaves the music,if you feel there is nothing to learn or gain from this film artistically and technically then,..well..that parts up to you. D


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## IvanP (Aug 4, 2013)

Akshara, Paul, Patrick, Dean and everyone that kindly helped me through this, 

Thank you, again, for putting so beautifully your opinions. This is very uplifting and motivating. Thank you. 

Whatever the outcome is, I don't feel guilt anymore, so it will be, as you say, a matter of how circumstances follow up, if there's still a vacant and if I'm finally accepting and channeling the energy for the gig from another point of view, notwithstanding how these conditions are. 

Great forum, great advices, great people, 

Thank you

Iván


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