# Best 88 keyboard



## dan1

what in your opinion is the three best 88/61 weighted keyboards for composers? (with the most realistic keyfeel/dynamics)

in my opinion
1. doepfer pk88
2. kawai vpc1
3. yamaha kx8

also I always wonder, are most libraries mapped by default for semi or full weighted keys?


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## muk

Not that I could claim to have tested them all, but from the ones I tried I liked those the most:

1. Roland FP 7F (resembled a real piano the most from all models I've tried)
2. Kawai MP 10
3.Roland FP 4F (lighter than the FP 7F, but still a good keybed. Would be my choice for a weighting somewhere between a piano and an organ)

You may notice that there isn't a single midi controller in my list. Digital Pianos do have way better keybeds ('better' in the sense of closer to a real piano action, that is) than midi controllers usually, even in the lower price segment. If you are a trained pianist and want something at least faintly resembling a piano action, dps are a better bet than midi controllers.

I don't understand the craze about Doepfer either. The Fatar keybeds they use can be found in much cheaper midi controllers, so you basically pay a hefty surplus for a sturdy case. It's probably because the doepfer's seem to be reliable. Still, if you are prepared to invest some money in your keyboard, I'd always go with a digital piano. But that's just me.


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## Silence-is-Golden

I have recently purchased a kawai mp7 which has a slightly different keyboard action then the mp10 but it is very good for my standards. And as I am also more classicaly trained I concur with the above posting..... so far only digital piano's resemble the best piano feel if that is what you want.
And the mp7 works fine for basic midi cc's as well since there is a mod wheel and pitch bend available. And some knobs also send midi data. ( obviously there is an usb to host mounted)

The piano sound is also very nice actually.

I may not be well informed but the vpc1 has a similar keybed as the mp10. The mp7, mp10 and vpc1 all have the triple sensor system built in, which is one of the reasons I went for Kawai pianos. With repetitions f.e. to me it comes closer to a real piano.

Doepfer is ok I believe, but havent played one recently. I personally dislike the flight case look in my home.


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## JohnG

I am not 100% sure about what the question is, but I also was skeptical about Doepfer -- initially -- but I bought one in the end after trying a lot of others. I replaced my very old Kurzweil PC88 that was simply worn out.

Overall, there is a problem in keyboards these days with quality. It appears that the game is to offer the most buttons per dollar. Some of the ideas are great, but my experience over months of trying keyboards is that $700 seemed to be the price point a lot of manufacturers are trying to hit and it apparently isn't enough to avoid a cheap, very inconsistent feel on the keyboard, very dubious-looking knobs, wheels, drum pads etc.

I'd love to have a drum pad and more buttons and sliders on my keyboard but the ones I tried that had all these features lacked something else or were obviously flimsy. A surprising number didn't provide both a mod wheel and a pitch wheel, or had a reputation for sending midi data constantly from some whammy-bar type controller. You can't have that kind of stuff if you're writing with any seriousness at all.

Doepfer LMK4+ offers everything I wanted (except maybe the drum pad) and nothing I didn't. I tried a number of them and their key beds were not perfectly consistent, though the guys in the store were cool and let me try three or four before I chose one. Also, to the comment about all the Fatar key beds being the 'same,' maybe some are, but key beds with similar model numbers don't feel at all the same to me.

As far as "real" piano feel, that is great at a level, but very tiring if you're writing for 18 hour days. I have a very nice piano and love to play it, but it would be tough to compose with all the time. But of course some people really crave that feel so naturally that's what they should get.


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## Morodiene

I'm surprised the Kawai MP11 hasn't been mentioned. I owned a VPC1 and loved it except that I was also teaching on it and needed my laptop to type up student assignments, but it was being used for the software piano, so it was a bit clumsy for my purposes. I got the MP11, which has a longer key than the VPC1, which means that when playing higher up on the keys it's not as hard to press down. I really love it, and it also happens to be my only instrument in the summer months. But it's about $1k more than the VPC1, so it depends on your needs.

I played my FP-7 (which has gotten minimal play over the years) for an entire summer once and it caused tension issues with the hard bottoming out it has, so I don't recommend that if you play classical. I have heard that Roland has improved the feel of their action quite a bit, so the newer FP80 might be worth checking out at least. Of course, the RD800 I've heard is awesome, but might be overkill if you're looking for mainly a piano that can be a controller as well.

For Yamaha, check out the CP4. I find the action very playable and non-offensive, but it and of leaves me feeling "meh" so I didn't buy one. It's a good action, but not one that was very exciting to play like the MP11 is.

Personally, I love composing at my acoustic piano, but it happens to be in another room, so using the MP11 for this isn't a problem. I do think that for recording strings and other legato instruments, however, a fully weighted keyboard isn't best. I dislike playing organ and strings on a piano action, so that's a personal preference.

I haven't really wanted to invest in a MIDI controller with semi-weighted keys because I can make do with what I have, but I kind of feel that I should have both semi-weighted and a digital piano. The list of things I could buy continues to grow.


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## muk

JohnG said:


> Also, to the comment about all the Fatar key beds being the 'same,' maybe some are, but key beds with similar model numbers don't feel at all the same to me



I hope I didn't imply that all Fatar keybeds are the same? In any case that's not what I tried to say. It's true John, different keybed models can feel very different. I meant that the exact same keybed that Doepfer uses for their keyboards can be found in cheaper models. Since 2011 Doepfer uses the Fatar TP40/GH in their LMK range. The same keybed - the Fatar TP40/GH - can be found in the Studiologic SL 990 and the Studiologic VMK 188+. These might not be as reliable and sturdy as a Doepfer, of course.


Anyway, here's a good overview about keybeds:

http://www.musiker-board.de/threads/verbaute-tastaturen-sammelthread.435157/


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## JohnG

My experience was that even the same instrument with the same model number did not have the same consistency of action across all the octaves.

That is an awesome list, muk! I didn't mean to write that you or anyone said in this thread that they are the same -- you didn't. Apologies.


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## Bohrium

Morodiene said:


> For Yamaha, check out the CP4. I find the action very playable and non-offensive, but it and of leaves me feeling "meh" so I didn't buy one. It's a good action, but not one that was very exciting to play like the MP11 is.
> 
> Personally, I love composing at my acoustic piano, but it happens to be in another room, so using the MP11 for this isn't a problem. I do think that for recording strings and other legato instruments, however, a fully weighted keyboard isn't best. I dislike playing organ and strings on a piano action, so that's a personal preference.
> 
> I haven't really wanted to invest in a MIDI controller with semi-weighted keys because I can make do with what I have, but I kind of feel that I should have both semi-weighted and a digital piano. The list of things I could buy continues to grow.



I have said this a couple of times ... For electric piano ... use an electric piano ... for real piano ... use a piano.
Since I have a midified grand piano all keyboards feel kinda funny when used as a piano.
I can't recommend it high enough. For piano ... just midify your piano, nothing will do better.


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## korgoasys

I think I'd have to say the Korg Oasys. Am I the only person visiting VI-C who uses it? There was a thread not so long ago here on the Korg Kronos but I'd be delighted to hear from anyone who has the O. I've been able to compile a huge ring binder file of the early posts (now deleted I think) on Korg Forums after it was produced with tips an' tricks etc. which I'd be happy to share.

Patrick


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## Ozymandias

I haven't used enough to know which is best, but I feel it's my civic duty to trash the Fatar TP40. Perfect for mounting in one of those fancy Nicaraguan rosewood custom desks, but not so great to actually play.


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## Morodiene

Bohrium said:


> I have said this a couple of times ... For electric piano ... use an electric piano ... for real piano ... use a piano.
> Since I have a midified grand piano all keyboards feel kinda funny when used as a piano.
> I can't recommend it high enough. For piano ... just midify your piano, nothing will do better.


What do you mean by "modify your piano"?


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## Bohrium

korgoasys said:


> I think I'd have to say the Korg Oasys. Am I the only person visiting VI-C who uses it? There was a thread not so long ago here on the Korg Kronos but I'd be delighted to hear from anyone who has the O. I've been able to compile a huge ring binder file of the early posts (now deleted I think) on Korg Forums after it was produced with tips an' tricks etc. which I'd be happy to share.
> 
> Patrick


I was one of the people in the Kronos thread you mentioned ... my points from back then still stand ... and by the way ... I use the Kronos as an 'electric piano', too, but still no contest to a real piano (with or without MIDI).


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## Morodiene

Ozymandias said:


> I haven't used enough to know which is best, but I feel it's my civic duty to trash the Fatar TP40. Perfect for mounting in one of those fancy Nicaraguan rosewood custom desks, but not so great to actually play.


I have not tried anything Fatar, but I've also heard that it's not very good. But again, there are those that like it, so you really have to try different actions out and see what you prefer.


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## Bohrium

Morodiene said:


> What do you mean by "modify your piano"?


I wrote midify your piano ... modify it with MIDI triggers


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## Morodiene

Bohrium said:


> I wrote midify your piano ... modify it with MIDI triggers


Ah, you mean like a MIDI strip for an acoustic piano? How well do those work? I wouldn't ever do that because of my current setup and, well...I don't want to mess with my acoustic, but curious to find out how accurate they are.


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## Baron Greuner

edited


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## Morodiene

Baron Greuner said:


> Weighted keyboards that are pretty good are Nord Stage pianos like the HA88, but generally most of these things aren't great.


Doesn't Nord use Fatar?


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## Bohrium

Morodiene said:


> Ah, you mean like a MIDI strip for an acoustic piano? How well do those work? I wouldn't ever do that because of my current setup and, well...I don't want to mess with my acoustic, but curious to find out how accurate they are.


I bought my grand with it, so I didn't literally modify anything ... It is very accurate since I have never noticed even the slightest errors.
I can understand when you say 'mess with the acoustic' if you mean you don't want to take it apart, but if you mean it will mess with the sound ... it doesn't, since it goes very close to the keybed so no messing with 'the sound'. 
I got one which uses laser technology, so there is no mechanical contact with the actual piano. You don't notice it while playing, you just get MIDI on the USB output ... that's it


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## Baron Greuner

edited


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## Bohrium

Baron Greuner said:


> Probably, but the way the Nords are set up make up for that.
> 
> I use a Kurzweil PCX2 and this is my second one. The first one's keybed just fell apart from constant use (in other words constant clicking and clacking as you hit the keys), and the cost for replacement was £390.00 plus taking it to the place 10 counties away.
> The weighted action on the Kurzweil is fair, but rubbish compared to a good real piano. So it depends on how you compare things. Comparisons with real pianos that are good obviously, or comparisons with other midi type keyboards, which are mostly bad.


Well, the OP said what's the best 88 weighted keys keyboard ... My answer was 'a MIDIfied piano' ... maybe a bit unfair to the MIDI keyboards


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## Morodiene

Bohrium said:


> I bought my grand with it, so I didn't literally modify anything ... It is very accurate since I have never noticed even the slightest errors.
> I can understand when you say 'mess with the acoustic' if you mean you don't want to take it apart, but if you mean it will mess with the sound ... it doesn't, since it goes very close to the keybed so no messing with 'the sound'.
> I got one which uses laser technology, so there is no mechanical contact with the actual piano. You don't notice it while playing, you just get MIDI on the USB output ... that's it


That's pretty cool. What kind did you get?


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## Baron Greuner

edited


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## Morodiene

Bohrium said:


> Well, the OP said what's the best 88 weighted keys keyboard ... My answer was 'a MIDIfied piano' ... maybe a bit unfair to the MIDI keyboards


My current acoustic grand has a Renner action (the best in the industry, IMO), and my MP11 (Grand Feel action) is pretty darn close. Where the MP11 doesn't come close to comparing (or any software piano for that matter) is the actual sound and connection between the action and sound. So it does seem as though if you have a good acoustic, it may be more worthwhile to invest in a MIDI strip/sensor thingie.


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## Bohrium

Baron Greuner said:


> Sorry was replying to Morodiene's question re: Nord keyboards. Hence there reference to Nords.
> The word ~Nord was definitely a clue there no?


No offence taken ... I just thought it was funny to point it out in that compressed manner, sorry.


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## Morodiene

Baron Greuner said:


> Probably, but the way the Nords are set up make up for that.
> 
> I use a Kurzweil PCX2 and this is my second one. The first one's keybed just fell apart from constant use (in other words constant clicking and clacking as you hit the keys), and the cost for replacement was £390.00 plus taking it to the place 10 counties away.
> The weighted action on the Kurzweil is fair, but rubbish compared to a good real piano. So it depends on how you compare things. Comparisons with real pianos that are good obviously, or comparisons with other midi type keyboards, which are mostly bad.


I've heard great things about Kurzweil, but like Nords, they are quite spendy.


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## Baron Greuner

edited


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## Bohrium

Morodiene said:


> That's pretty cool. What kind did you get?


The grand here at the beginning is basically the thing I have.
http://bechstein.com/en/upright-and-grand-pianos/cbechstein-vario-digital-mute-system.html


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## Baron Greuner

edited


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## BlueStar

I've tested many keyboards, before I finally decided for Kawai MP10 and I love it every day.
In the end you should try to test them in a shop or NAMM / Musikmesse...


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## Morodiene

Bohrium said:


> The grand here at the beginning is basically the thing I have.
> http://bechstein.com/en/upright-and-grand-pianos/cbechstein-vario-digital-mute-system.html


Looks pretty nice! And seems much less invasive than I imagined. What does the unit cost with installation?


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## JohnG

BlueStar said:


> In the end you should try to test them in a shop or NAMM / Musikmesse...



Absolutely -- this is something you may have for a long time and if it's not right it will drive you nuts.


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## Bohrium

Morodiene said:


> Looks pretty nice! And seems much less invasive than I imagined. What does the unit cost with installation?


I have no idea since I bought the grand with it ... but I think Mike Verta (mverta) has a Yamaha C7 fitted with a similar system.


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## chimuelo

I have always liked Kawai MPs for action + sound as a replacement for a real acoustic.

But for a MIDI Controller with some excellent resistance the Physis K4 is the very best controller I ever owned.
I often have to use solo Piano intros that need to become a split, or a 4/5/6/7/8 part scene with overlapping layers.
Nothing else out there comes close.
The excessive pedal inputs and MIDI patchbay are unrivalled.
The 2 x Modulation wheels are also a reminder of a no corners cut approach to quality design.
Comes with Mains powered 15 foot cable which also reminds users that they can have thier racks out of sight or even under a riser for that unimportant look some folks deem necessary.
The K4X has really good heavy action and if you choose internal motherboard module with sound. There are many really decent Pianos with an editor too.
USB x 4 outs with dual USB ins.
I compare it to a Kurzweil Forte with better sound more features insane controller options and 1000 USD less.
And the Korg Oasys owner is very fortunate. One of the finest packages ever made.
The Kronos is loved by many but after plaing the Oasys then hearing and playing a Kronos, theres no comparison.

Personally I would love a MIDI'd Grand Piano.
The best action out there in keybeds cant get close to real wood strings and pedalling.


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## Yogi108

I'm very happy with my Nord Stage 2 EX... I have the fully weighted 88 note version. The triple pedal (which cost me an extra $400...!!) also adds extra detail for half pedaling, etc... They have a constantly updating set of new libraries that are free updates... Their new Velvet piano, for example, has a very warm sound and is wonderful to play.

I dare say apart from good feel and sound of what you choose... Good monitors are also key... I have the HK Audio Lucas Nano 300, which comes with a subwoofer and two satellite speakers... I'm very happy with that setup.


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## JohnG

chimuelo said:


> The best action out there in keybeds cant get close to real wood strings and pedalling



you can say that again


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## rgames

Here's a related question: who offers an 88-key weighted keyboard as compact as the PK88?

I agree that the DPs have the best feel but I'm looking for one that I can cram into a custom-built desk. So I'm looking for a trade between compact size and feel (I want a weighted feel). Right now I'm leaning towards getting the PK88 and removing the keybed.

All of the DPs and workstations are somewhere between large and huge. I use a Yamaha S90ES and all it is is a MIDI controller. I use absolutely none of the functionality that takes up 80% of the volume of that beast.

Alternatively, has anyone removed the keybed from some other DP and built it into a desk? I know it can be done with the PK88, that's why I'm leaning in that direction. In fact, I believe you can even buy just the keybed from Fatar.

Thanks,

rgames


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## Richard Wilkinson

Casio privia px5s is great. And light with a small footprint. Looks are a bit of an acquired taste, if that sort of thing bothers you.


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## Baron Greuner

edited


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## rgames

Baron Greuner said:


> Richard why would you remove the keybed?


So you can build it into a desk, like the pic below. I'm doing something similar except mine will have a small cover that slides into the desk to cover/uncover the keyboard. The Fatar keybeds are the only ones I've seen mentioned as able to handle that kind of setup. They're basically a self-contained unit.


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## mickeyl

Zaor has been demoing a bunch of those, but for some reason neither prototype landed in an actual product. I wonder why... because that looks like the ultimate ergonomic musicians' desk to me.


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## Ozymandias

rgames said:


> I know it can be done with the PK88, that's why I'm leaning in that direction. In fact, I believe you can even buy just the keybed from Fatar.



Since they have the same action and the PK88 has no wheels, why not get an SL990 and ditch the wheels? Seems like the latter is quite a bit cheaper.


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## muk

Richard, if compact is what you need, have a look at the Studiologic Numa Compact. I haven't played it, so I can't comment on the keybed. But you'll have to try that for yourself anyway.


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## rgames

The Numa compact is semi-weighted, right?

Also, has anyone tried to remove the keybed?


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## RCsound

rgames said:


> The Numa compact is semi-weighted, right?



There is contradictory info on the net, but studiologic specs says weighted:

http://www.studiologic-music.com/numa-compact-specifications.html


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## chimuelo

The Casio PX is my back up 88 and they are barely bigger than the Keybed.
Check out Privia on Facebook.
Lots of tech nerds love these.
Semi weighted action is pretty good.


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## Morodiene

chimuelo said:


> The Casio PX is my back up 88 and they are barely bigger than the Keybed.
> Check out Privia on Facebook.
> Lots of tech nerds love these.
> Semi weighted action is pretty good.


Actually, the PX's are fully weighted. It's not one of the heavier actions in DPs, but it's probably the best action in the sub-$1k price range.


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## germancomponist

chimuelo said:


> The Casio PX is my back up 88 and they are barely bigger than the Keybed.
> Check out Privia on Facebook.
> Lots of tech nerds love these.
> Semi weighted action is pretty good.


I remember when I had the Casio VZ1, the keyboard was very good.


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## chimuelo

Well you're right about PX.
I should've researched PX better.
I was referring to PX-3s and 5s.
I remember playing one at a retailer and concur the action had nice resistance and is a great value.
Just played a Korg IP80 iirc 2 days ago and thanks to Casio pricing other manufacturers are after that market as well.
It had great control in ppp and sfz. But mf to f was hard to distinguish.


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## germancomponist




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## dan1

Didnt expect so much comment! I need some time to read through but yes I wanted to know what is the best keyboard for writing (not necessarily the same keyfeel of a real piano)
I have a axiom 61 and it is a toy...never broke or malfunctioned but the keyfeel is horrible, feels like a toy.. it does also send random midi and completely unexpected velocities. I just now read reviews on it and I find it does for everyone else..
my brother has oxygen 88 and i hate it too, you can never play fast (the keys bounce so much) and unexpected velocity,key feel is better than the axiom but still not for me
Concerning the Doepfer I understand it uses the Fatar TP40/GH keybed but so does the Studiologic SL-900 pro which is much cheaper, so are they the exact same keyboard in a different casing? the velocity response is also the same? If yes I will go get the SL tomorrow


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## Morodiene

dan1 said:


> Didnt expect so much comment! I need some time to read through but yes I wanted to know what is the best keyboard for writing (not necessarily the same keyfeel of a real piano)
> I have a axiom 61 and it is a toy...never broke or malfunctioned but the keyfeel is horrible, feels like a toy.. it does also send random midi and completely unexpected velocities. I just now read reviews on it and I find it does for everyone else..
> my brother has oxygen 88 and i hate it too, you can never play fast (the keys bounce so much) and unexpected velocity,key feel is better than the axiom but still not for me
> Concerning the Doepfer I understand it uses the Fatar TP40/GH keybed but so does the Studiologic SL-900 pro which is much cheaper, so are they the exact same keyboard in a different casing? the velocity response is also the same? If yes I will go get the SL tomorrow


With any action, you have to just go and test it yourself. Buy what you love the feel of, and nothing just based on specs or what people tell you. *You* have to love it.


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## tack

Morodiene said:


> I got the MP11, which has a longer key than the VPC1, which means that when playing higher up on the keys it's not as hard to press down. I really love it, and it also happens to be my only instrument in the summer months.


I just wanted to let you know that your comment set me down a research path that ultimately had me cancelling an outstanding order for the VPC1 and placing a new one for the CA67, which has Kawai's GF2 action (next generation from the MP11). Ok, it may be $2k CAD more than what I was originally going to spend, but having played one at a local dealer, I am sure my fingers are going to thank you for it, even if my wallet doesn't.


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## Pablocrespo

rgames said:


> The Numa compact is semi-weighted, right?
> 
> Also, has anyone tried to remove the keybed?



Richard, don't mean to derail the thread but I was in the same situation and de doepfer was unavailable here, so I ended removing the keybed of a yamaha p35 and setting it up in the desk. I put the logic boards in a rack case behing the keybed with two ribbon cables connecting them.

The only drawback is that it's still a couple centimeters taller than the doepfer keybed (11cm vs 8.4 if not mistaken).

If you like to know more PM me so why don't derail the subject


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## Ozymandias

dan1 said:


> Concerning the Doepfer I understand it uses the Fatar TP40/GH keybed but so does the Studiologic SL-900 pro which is much cheaper, so are they the exact same keyboard in a different casing? the velocity response is also the same? If yes I will go get the SL tomorrow



The Fatar number is the same, but, as Morodiene says, be sure to try one out first.

In all seriousness, I wouldn't buy an SL unless I was going to take it apart and use it in a DIY desk. That's its only winning feature, IMO - a cheap action that can harvested for something else.


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## Morodiene

tack said:


> I just wanted to let you know that your comment set me down a research path that ultimately had me cancelling an outstanding order for the VPC1 and placing a new one for the CA67, which has Kawai's GF2 action (next generation from the MP11). Ok, it may be $2k CAD more than what I was originally going to spend, but having played one at a local dealer, I am sure my fingers are going to thank you for it, even if my wallet doesn't.


I haven't tried the GF2 action, but I've heard great things about it. I know there are people clamoring for a VPC2 with the new GF2 action, but it's such a niche instrument that I'm guessing it won't happen anytime soon.

Enjoy your new piano! :D


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## chimuelo

I am almost convinced you need an 88 note Keybed using its own sound.
Using the MIDI Out on a Kawai to Rosewood, Malmsjo or PianoTeq Pro Grands or Upright was clumsier than using the very respectable internal Pianos.
Surprisingly the PX 5S was not affected doing this. 
Casio still uses a weak acoustic piano palette.
But they nailed that Bee Gees Top of the World by the Carpenters Rhodes sound.
A perfect companion for Holiday Inn Lounge work.


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## Morodiene

Kawai sounds are OK, and the Virtual Technician on the MPs and CAs are great, but really you're not going to beat what you can do with software. I know that the MP11 is pretty effortless to set up with VSTs.


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## Baron Greuner

edited


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## chimuelo

I settled for the ultimate controller running my beloved Malmsjo, Rosewood Grand and PianoTeq Pro.
The action is acceptable. 90 minute shows with 15 minute finales after fooling the Sheep with my layered multiple applause clips makes it my favorite. The heavy bastard on an unattractive zero bounce stand.


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## tarantulis

Roland A-88 all the way. Fully weighted and built like a tank, plus you get a few basic MIDI controls.

The only downside is the joystick-style mod wheel, which sort of makes me crazy.


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## PeterKorcek

dan1 said:


> I have a axiom 61 and it is a toy...never broke or malfunctioned but the keyfeel is horrible, feels like a toy.. it does also send random midi and completely unexpected velocities. I just now read reviews on it and I find it does for everyone else..



I think it depends on what you want and of course sometimes the unit can be defective (not an offensive word!).

Daniel James (professional composer) uses M-Audio Axiom 61 I think and he seems pretty happy with it.

Doepfer LMK2+ has been serving me for over 2 years and the feel is really nice.


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## tack

PeterKorcek said:


> Daniel James (professional composer) uses M-Audio Axiom 61 I think and he seems pretty happy with it.


I can't speak for Daniel of course, but as an owner of an Axiom 61, I certainly am not _happy_ with it. I tolerate it, and intend to upgrade when the time is right (i.e. there is an available product right for me).

It's fine for inputting notes but the key bed really is junk in my opinion.


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## mickeyl

Will play the Studiologic 88 grand on the Messe and hopefully like the action. I like three joysticks.


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## PeterKorcek

I bought Axiom 61 when I moved to London for a couple of months - to me it's OK keyboard - it is not awesome, it is not completely rubbish. I prefer Deopfer I have in Prague.


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## Daniel James

tack said:


> I can't speak for Daniel of course, but as an owner of an Axiom 61, I certainly am not _happy_ with it. I tolerate it, and intend to upgrade when the time is right (i.e. there is an available product right for me).
> 
> It's fine for inputting notes but the key bed really is junk in my opinion.



I love it tbh. I love the feel of the keys, its synthy enough to smash about for percussion and weighted enough to allow you to play softer piano lines. Transport controls work great. You can do octave shift and Transpose shift with the same buttons. The faders can be assigned how you like (I only dont use them currently because of my NanoKontrol. All in all its a great unit.

-DJ


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## Ryan

Just make sure to chose the one with fatar keybed... I use (and have been using a Novation Remote49SL compact since 2008. Still love it! But then again I have a Yamaha U1 next to me.


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## tack

Daniel James said:


> I love it tbh. I love the feel of the keys, its synthy enough to smash about for percussion and weighted enough to allow you to play softer piano lines. Transport controls work great. You can do octave shift and Transpose shift with the same buttons. The faders can be assigned how you like (I only dont use them currently because of my NanoKontrol. All in all its a great unit.


I actually like everything _else_ about the Axiom. It's very flexible, and it ticks all the important feature boxes for me. (Well, aside from the fact that it randomly loses all my customizations and I have to reprogram the damn thing every month or so.) But I just can't abide by the key bed. In my experience, the key responses are inconsistent and I find it quite difficult to play on -- especially when triggering a note past the key's half way point.

So I certainly agree it's great for smashing out percussion tracks, but I disagree about playing softer piano lines.

I have had my eye on the Behringer Motor 61 (which has a Fatar key bed), but it's been complete vaporware for 2 years now.


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## Daniel James

tack said:


> I actually like everything _else_ about the Axiom. It's very flexible, and it ticks all the important feature boxes for me. (Well, aside from the fact that it randomly loses all my customizations and I have to reprogram the damn thing every month or so.) But I just can't abide by the key bed. In my experience, the key responses are inconsistent and I find it quite difficult to play on -- especially when triggering a note past the key's half way point.
> 
> So I certainly agree it's great for smashing out percussion tracks, but I disagree about playing softer piano lines.
> 
> I have had my eye on the Behringer Motor 61 (which has a Fatar key bed), but it's been complete vaporware for 2 years now.



Fair enough. If you guys want to see me play soft piano using it feel free to check out my Youtube page, I have a ton of videos where I go between the loud hits and soft piano and I think it works amazing! 

Just keep in mind that whatever you go with you will 'learn' and you will know how to get the best you can out of that kit.

-DJ


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## tack

Daniel James said:


> Fair enough. If you guys want to see me play soft piano using it feel free to check out my Youtube page, I have a ton of videos where I go between the loud hits and soft piano and I think it works amazing!


I've seen quite a few of your videos. 

Your "soft playing" sounds about right to me. I mean, it's similar to what I get. But I don't like the feel while playing that way, and some notes come out uncontrollably louder or quieter than they should. Maybe it matters that I spend a lot of time in front of the piano playing a more classical repertoire, and I'm just accustomed to more finesse than something like the Axiom can provide.


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## Jan16

tack said:


> I have had my eye on the Behringer Motor 61 (which has a Fatar key bed), but it's been complete vaporware for 2 years now.


There is one thing in the design which I fail to understand: the display is in the extreme left upperhand corner, surely not the most intuitive place to put a display and the function buttons? That's the sort of thing you want right in front of you.


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## tack

Jan16 said:


> There is one thing in the design which I fail to understand: the display is in the extreme left upperhand corner, surely not the most intuitive place to put a display and the function buttons? That's the sort of thing you want right in front of you.


Yeah, it's not the best position for me either. As long as the viewing angle is manageable I can live with it. Even with the Axiom, the screen is unreadable from my seating position, but leaning forward is easier than leaning forward and far left.


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## Baron Greuner

edited


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## Hired Goon

tack said:


> I actually like everything _else_ about the Axiom. It's very flexible, and it ticks all the important feature boxes for me. (Well, aside from the fact that it randomly loses all my customizations and I have to reprogram the damn thing every month or so.) But I just can't abide by the key bed. In my experience, the key responses are inconsistent and I find it quite difficult to play on -- especially when triggering a note past the key's half way point.
> 
> So I certainly agree it's great for smashing out percussion tracks, but I disagree about playing softer piano lines.
> 
> I have had my eye on the Behringer Motor 61 (which has a Fatar key bed), but it's been complete vaporware for 2 years now.


I too enjoy the features for a controller but the keys, IMO, aren't great. I've got at least 2 keys that spit out way too much velocity, unfortunately in the money range of the keyboard. I can adjust for it with one of Reapers built midi apps but if I transpose it no longer works. 

I wouldn't buy M-Audio again despite the tempting price and the attractive looks.


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## spoon

I bought an used Kawai MP6 a couple of months ago. I really like it.


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## JohnG

Baron Greuner said:


> Any of them with a good manufacturers name probably.



You would think that, but there are a lot of duds out there with "good names" on them. Try before you buy.


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## Baron Greuner

edited


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## passsacaglia

I have this one, love it til' death tear us apart. No but really it's superb and such a good feeling, you really need to press slightly harder but you love it, especially if you're a pianist and you have a good piano sound on it.
It has everything and a little bit more, Love this beauty Studiologic VMK-188 plus. But I did love playing on the M-Audio Oxygen 88.
The VMK-188 plus uses the Fatar Grand touch with the graded hammer action keys.

Anyone who buys this will be super happy, I promise that for sure!
http://www.studiologic-music.com/vmk-188-plus.html


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## esencia

passsacaglia said:


> I have this one, love it til' death tear us apart. No but really it's superb and such a good feeling, you really need to press slightly harder but you love it, especially if you're a pianist and you have a good piano sound on it.
> It has everything and a little bit more, Love this beauty Studiologic VMK-188 plus. But I did love playing on the M-Audio Oxygen 88.
> The VMK-188 plus uses the Fatar Grand touch with the graded hammer action keys.
> 
> Anyone who buys this will be super happy, I promise that for sure!
> http://www.studiologic-music.com/vmk-188-plus.html


Does it have triple sensor in the keys? does it has a real piano touch?


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## tack

esencia said:


> Does it have triple sensor in the keys? does it has a real piano touch?


It doesn't look like it's available anymore. The Studiologic SL88 Grand looks nice in some ways, but those dinky joysticks would be deal breakers for me personally.


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## synthpunk

The New VAX Midi controllers are pretty awesome. If/when my old timer dies I will get one.
http://www.vaxmidi.com/


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## byzantium

Pablocrespo said:


> Richard, don't mean to derail the thread but I was in the same situation and de doepfer was unavailable here, so I ended removing the keybed of a yamaha p35 and setting it up in the desk. I put the logic boards in a rack case behing the keybed with two ribbon cables connecting them.
> 
> The only drawback is that it's still a couple centimeters taller than the doepfer keybed (11cm vs 8.4 if not mistaken).
> 
> If you like to know more PM me so why don't derail the subject



Beautiful job on the keyed-integrated-into-the-desk-drawer build.


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