# Hans Zimmer Percussion



## procreative (Sep 21, 2017)

I didn't want to taint the commercial thread any more than I have already. Let me preface this by stating I like and own many Spitfire products and this is not a criticism of the products generally.

I dont like the recent trend in re-packaging products in new versions, generally as cut down products with less content, split into two versions. Sure this is great for new entrants as it gives them a way to buy at lower cost, but with less content.

But frequently existing owners are being forced to pay over the odds to get an updated version with all the content they already own in this new format. Even with "crossgrade" offers its still too much.

Generally I have passed on most as they did not sufficently add functionality Sable being an example.

But in the case of Hans Zimmer, its less easy. In its original form HZ01 is for me largely unusable as I find having to load every drum as a separate track counter intuitive as programming drums is often a case of experimenting with different drums at the same time.

In HZ01 this is very difficult to do as all drums are mapped to the same keys.

Again tonight I revisited and attempted to transpose mapping, but many drums have a single hit about an octave up, leaving little space to fit all the drum over the keyboard. Best case you might be able to fit say all the Taikos in one Multi.

I get the update includes HZ03, but thats not really enough to justify the cost if its not something you needed. When they updated Percussion they added Kickstarter and it was a free update.

So it seems the new Spitfire with its revised corporate board is starting to make commercial decisions that seem to favour revenue streams over creative decisions.

When Spitfire started they really stood out as making very customer friendly policies. I get they are much larger and need to keep revenue ticking over, but this new way of dealing with product flaws seems like a policy designed to revitalise sales over any new features/content.


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## Vastman (Sep 21, 2017)

Agree... actually this extends to getting NEW libraries out the door also...without dealing with old library issues, including nks...

Be that as it may, the free/crossgrades are fair. I NEVER bought any of the HZ libraries because of all the problems/clunky gui but I will get this.


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## Soundhound (Sep 21, 2017)

Posting this here, might be more appropriate than where I first posted in the commercial announcement thread:


<<I have this same question. Was about to jump into HZ1 and possibly HZ3 but now thinking about getting this new HZ Percussion and seeing what happens with the Pro addition. 

But I'm wondering if I'll be missing out on those JXL etc mixes etc... 

<<
What are the mixes?
Are they just presets of the mic positions and other settings in the interface... or is there some other mojo that is not being mentioned?>>


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## D Halgren (Sep 21, 2017)

Answered in the other thread


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## Vastman (Sep 21, 2017)

It appears that the junky mixes will be included in professional according to their frequently asked questions section... you can see them by googling you tube


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## tav.one (Sep 21, 2017)

Those mixes are not just slightly/differently processed version of the same samples, the difference in the sound is huge between those mixes. All mixers have chosen a very different set of mics & personal processing to create their mixes.
They sound like very different samples & I use them on very different occasions depending on the emotions.

That being said if you're really good at engineering and have a lot of time at hand to custom engineer each sample to your liking then you don't need those extra mixes.


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## procreative (Sep 21, 2017)

Just to be clear, when we are discussing the Producer Mixes, they come (in the original) as both Stereo Mixes and individual Mic Sets. I presume what took place was a Submix of each Mic perspective which probably meant say a Close perspective was a blend of several Mics and each producer used their judgement to balance them to their taste.

The base crossgrade is the set of 3 Mic positions as Hans Zimmer chose. Its not clear if there is also a Mixed single Mic as per the original (which hopefully there is as they save RAM).


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## ctsai89 (Sep 21, 2017)

Knew I wasn't the only one who thought it haha


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## Zhao Shen (Sep 21, 2017)

Introducing... Something groundbreaking... Something incredible... Something you have never seen before... Except not.


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## ctsai89 (Sep 21, 2017)

Zhao Shen said:


> Introducing... Something groundbreaking... Something incredible... Something you have never seen before... Except not.


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## ctsai89 (Sep 21, 2017)

They want new customers. But I'm all for it if they would ever come up with more cooler products with the new customers money


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## Whatisvalis (Sep 21, 2017)

I get the impression Spitfire, as a comapany, are transitioning. Early adopters will always support initial growth - is it any surprise that Spitfire are now overhauling their products and making them more accessible to a wider user base? Hopefully by doing this, they can fund more adventurous sampling projects - win win. 

Plus the updates are free to previous owners / cheap cross grade. If you're miffed about the cross grade fees ask yourself - did you need the product in the first place, because it should have likely paid for itself by now.


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## khollister (Sep 21, 2017)

To be fair, Spitfire has never asked you to pay for updates against the exact same content. The issue is they have changed the content bundling and you are being asked to buy additional content (samples) in order to obtain the new UI/fixes for _all_ of the content you previously owned along with the content you never purchased.

They have decided to package breadth rather than depth, in the theory that most customers are more interested in a complete set of instruments/articulations rather than just cherry-picking specific instruments in depth. I think this is a very astute business decision which reduces the entry cost for folks looking to assemble a Spitfire template. The fact that it leaves some of us facing spending a moderate amount to purchase additional content we didn't originally to remain on the supported baseline is, I believe, a consequence of looking to future sales instead of solely focusing on early owners. 

In the case of HZ Perc, getting HZ03 for less than $200 (SA has stated that crossgrading to HZP and then purchasing the HZPP upgrade will be cheaper than buying HZ03 at the current closeout price of $200) and getting the Kickstart and NKS updates thrown in is not a bad deal to my mind.


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## Daniel James (Sep 21, 2017)

procreative said:


> I didn't want to taint the commercial thread any more than I have already. Let me preface this by stating I like and own many Spitfire products and this is not a criticism of the products generally.
> 
> I dont like the recent trend in re-packaging products in new versions, generally as cut down products with less content, split into two versions. Sure this is great for new entrants as it gives them a way to buy at lower cost, but with less content.
> 
> ...



I too am slightly worried with the trend. I fucking love me some Spitfire but I am genuinely worried. If you watch the Christian Henson vlogs you often get a look at the behind the scenes at Spitfire team... The first thing that struck me was how many employees they have, then the physical location, then the parts where it looks like they have a whole marketing team. I was trying to do some napkin math as too how much running an operation that size would cost (in London no less) and it wasn't cheap. 

That was where the worries started then I looked at them as a company. They are essentially an orchestral sample library company who by this point has already sampled the orchestra multiple times, in multiple ways. I fear there are only so many different ways to sample it that would make people buy in the must have bulk of some of their current libraries. So the only other thing to do is branch into more niche categories, like they did with EDNA and Phobos...but these niche libraries are never going to sell like a Sable or Albion library (I assume with the nicheness) which means a company of the size they are would struggle to sustain inly doing those. Then the fear really sets in when I see all the current trend of re-releases and paid UI upgrades. I totally get why, as others have mentioned they have appear to have moved from a project based company to a profit based one, which makes sense as a company but as I mentioned above I again fear for the future given that they have already comprehensively sampled the orchestra to the top of the game already...a few times. 

I would absolutely love to be totally wrong and the business plan I havn't seen is perfectly on track and it fully supports the large team for the next decade or so...but without seeing it I am just fearful that one of my favorite devs bite off more than they are ready to swallow.

As for HZ Perc I will probs be getting it as I dont have HZ03, although still debating if I should just buy 03 and get teh free HZ perc update so I have access to all the 03 mics. HZ perc has become quite a goto for me.

-DJ


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## jadedsean (Sep 21, 2017)

In the case of HZ Perc, getting HZ03 for less than $200 (SA has stated that crossgrading to HZP and then purchasing the HZPP upgrade will be cheaper than buying HZ03 at the current closeout price of $200) and getting the Kickstart and NKS updates thrown in is not a bad deal to my mind.[/QUOTE]

Can you point me in the direction were SA states this? Iv'e just bought HZ1 last week and i was wondering whether buying HZ3 would work out better at its current price than two separate upgrades.


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## khollister (Sep 21, 2017)

jadedsean said:


> In the case of HZ Perc, getting HZ03 for less than $200 (SA has stated that crossgrading to HZP and then purchasing the HZPP upgrade will be cheaper than buying HZ03 at the current closeout price of $200) and getting the Kickstart and NKS updates thrown in is not a bad deal to my mind.



Can you point me in the direction were SA states this? Iv'e just bought HZ1 last week and i was wondering whether buying HZ3 would work out better at its current price than two separate upgrades.[/QUOTE]

It was in the commercial thread fairly recently, but I would need to re-read a few pages to find it. Someone asked this exact question and was told by SA to buy HZP and HZPP when available rather than HZ03 at the new price. I believe tech support or Christian also alluded to disclosing the HZPP price prior to the discounts on HZP and HZ03 expiring so folks could make a decision.

UPDATE: Post #85 over in the commercial thread is the comment by SA.


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## jadedsean (Sep 21, 2017)

It was in the commercial thread fairly recently, but I would need to re-read a few pages to find it. Someone asked this exact question and was told by SA to buy HZP and HZPP when available rather than HZ03 at the new price. I believe tech support or Christian also alluded to disclosing the HZPP price prior to the discounts on HZP and HZ03 expiring so folks could make a decision.[/QUOTE]

Oh thanks for that, i'll head over to the tread and give it a read now.


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## Vastman (Sep 21, 2017)

Growth...its like a virus & kills what it feeds upon. This is a fundamental challenge facing humanity as it stripmines the world into climate instability and eats the very nature we need to survive..."profit" doesn't seem to care

Most deep thinkers and futurists recognize this is both unsustainable and genocidal like a backteria overwhelming it's petree dish till cascading failure.

Spitfire, as an entity is walking the path of most corporations engaged in this fatal behavior pattern. Enjoy the amazing tools they've given us and shift ur focus to smaller folks still in touch with community... not to say each person within spitfire isnt...its just that corporatization/investors generally have other priorities... mainly that synthetic term, profit...

Yes, I'll get this HZ redo...its way better than the original I didn't buy. But there are many other small creators out there doing amazing things...still in touch with our relationship with their creations


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## procreative (Sep 21, 2017)

To me there appears to be a correlation between the recent venture capital investment and the changing philosophy on repackaged products. I totally get the need to keep revenue streams going, but as a customer its not my problem to worry about a business's bottom line.

I passed on the Sable update as I had no interest in the Ensembles so to get the equivalent content of the full Sable meant paying £150 or so for the sake of a revised GUI, Player version and Performance Legatos.

My issue with HZ01 is that I have struggled to use it as is because the mapping setup is quirky and the keyswitch patches are very bizarre (who keyswitches between drums). Kickstarter was added to Percussion as a free update.

My guess is that HZ03 was not a big seller (or at least compared to the Ensembles) so bundling it killed to birds so to speak and made the "crossgrade" sound better value.

In the world of Pro Composers these amounts might be considered chicken feed, but I hazard a guess that the vast majority of their customers fall somewhere between hobbyists and low paid composers (the rest probably get NFR copies in return for endorsements anyway!).

Ultimately as before its Spitfire's product and they can sell it however they like. I still like their products, but I am not so keen on some of their marketing schemes which frequently seem to be better value to new customers than existing. But the obviously need to generate more income to pay for all those extra composing suites such as the one Olivier has moved into...


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## muziksculp (Sep 21, 2017)

Since I have non of the HZ Perc. Libraries, I'm most likely going to go for the *HZ Perc. Pro* version whenever it is released, according to SFA, The Pro version is _Coming Soon_, I wonder if that means it will be released during next month (October) ?


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## Alex Fraser (Sep 21, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> I too am slightly worried with the trend. I fucking love me some Spitfire but I am genuinely worried. If you watch the Christian Henson vlogs you often get a look at the behind the scenes at Spitfire team... The first thing that struck me was how many employees they have, then the physical location, then the parts where it looks like they have a whole marketing team. I was trying to do some napkin math as too how much running an operation that size would cost (in London no less) and it wasn't cheap.
> 
> That was where the worries started then I looked at them as a company. They are essentially an orchestral sample library company who by this point has already sampled the orchestra multiple times, in multiple ways. I fear there are only so many different ways to sample it that would make people buy in the must have bulk of some of their current libraries. So the only other thing to do is branch into more niche categories, like they did with EDNA and Phobos...but these niche libraries are never going to sell like a Sable or Albion library (I assume with the nicheness) which means a company of the size they are would struggle to sustain inly doing those. Then the fear really sets in when I see all the current trend of re-releases and paid UI upgrades. I totally get why, as others have mentioned they have appear to have moved from a project based company to a profit based one, which makes sense as a company but as I mentioned above I again fear for the future given that they have already comprehensively sampled the orchestra to the top of the game already...a few times.
> 
> ...



Yep. Watching the vids I can't help thinking they're either flush with new investment, or shifting a *lot* of libraries.
I love Spitfire, but can't help noticing that some of the other big orchestral library "companies" appear to be just a couple of blokes.

But seriously, I'm sure I haven't got the entire picture. It's late and I shouldn't be pontificating on the 'net.


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## Daniel James (Sep 21, 2017)

Alex Fraser said:


> Yep. Watching the vids I can't help thinking they're either flush with new investment, or shifting a *lot* of libraries.
> I love Spitfire, but can't help noticing that some of the other big orchestral library "companies" appear to be just a couple of blokes.
> 
> But seriously, I'm sure I haven't got the entire picture. It's late and I shouldn't be pontificating on the 'net.



I wasn't pontificating. I am legitimately worried. I don't want to lose companies like SF. I have no doubt they are currently wealthy if their staff/studio(s) and constant renting of AIR + Musicians is anything to go by. I just hope they don't over spend now while they sit on what is a finite resource of samples! 

-DJ


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## Dave Connor (Sep 21, 2017)

procreative said:


> But in the case of Hans Zimmer, its less easy. In its original form HZ01 is for me largely unusable as I find having to load every drum as a separate track counter intuitive as programming drums is often a case of experimenting with different drums at the same time.


 Pardon the momentary hijack but I have wondered whether I was missing something in the interface. You seem to confirm that you can only mouse-click a drum selection in the interface and not change drums _within_ the interface via controller or KS etc. I thought I was missing something but is this what you're saying? Because I recently realized the only way around that is the additional instances and tracks you mentioned. Am I correct? (I agree this should be addressed of course.)


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## Alex Fraser (Sep 21, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> I wasn't pontificating. I am legitimately worried. I don't want to lose companies like SF. I have no doubt they are currently wealthy if their staff/studio(s) and constant renting of AIR + Musicians is anything to go by. I just hope they don't over spend now while they sit on what is a finite resource of samples!
> 
> -DJ



Oh mate, I agree. To be clear the “finger of pontification” ™ was aimed squarely at myself.


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## jononotbono (Sep 21, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> They want new customers. But I'm all for it if they would ever come up with more cooler products with the new customers money



I'm curious, do you not think Albion Tundra, LCO Strings, Bernard Herrman and Phobos are not Spitfire coming up with "more cooler products"? All very new releases.


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## mc_deli (Sep 22, 2017)

I've read both threads, watch the HZp vids and read the web pages but still don't understand the mixes. Do the mixes include hidden features/processing that is not accessible by the user? How exactly is the basic HZp crippled so that you can't recreate the "mixes" in HZpp - is it just missing mics? Are the mixes just snapshots of the mix parameters on the GUI and mic choices or something else?


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## Sami (Sep 22, 2017)

To be honest that is one thing I appreciate about CineSamples. I know what it means to not have eaten for 3 days cause you are waiting for a sampling company to pay you and at least those guys distribute the earnings to their musicians. Thing with Spitfire is that they try to sell you a feeling more than just a product, they are kinda like Apple that way. The samples are brilliant, abd everything is great but beneath it all they are just another company trying to make cash in a very competitive market. At some point idealism is gonna have to take a back seat.


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## Paul Thomson (Sep 22, 2017)

Sami said:


> To be honest that is one thing I appreciate about CineSamples. I know what it means to not have eaten for 3 days cause you are waiting for a sampling company to pay you and at least those guys distribute the earnings to their musicians. Thing with Spitfire is that they try to sell you a feeling more than just a product, they are kinda like Apple that way. The samples are brilliant, abd everything is great but beneath it all they are just another company trying to make cash in a very competitive market. At some point idealism is gonna have to take a back seat.



Hey guys .. don't want to butt into your discussions (!) - but did want to correct this: we were actually the first sample company to pay royalties on sales to our musicians and we continue to do that to this day.


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## Tatu (Sep 22, 2017)

Am I the only one who hates that "engine"? I don't have HZ stuff, just SF Perc.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi everyone,

I've read several time that some composers have trouble to experiment with different HZ01 drum patches at the same time, as they are all mapped to the same keys. I had the same problem, and here is a quite simple solution I came up with (in Cubase at least, I don't know how that could work in other DAWs) : *Drum maps !*

Drum maps allow you to take an _input MIDI note_ and to _route it to another MIDI note, another MIDI channel, even another MIDI track_. That's quite simple actually once you dive into it.

Here is an exemple I have made for the Taikos (including Low, High, Large & Ensemble Taikos). In my case, the 4 individual patches are loaded into a single Kontakt instance, using channels 1 to 4. Looks like this :






The only problem I had was with the Rolls. For an unknown reason, I was only able to ride CC1 for channel 1. I'm sure a Kontakt ninja would easily figure out why, but I came up with that little - probably terribly written - script that just diplicates CC data from Channel 1 to the other channels. I use this all the time for various purposes. And now, all 4 Rolls are controlled via CC1 as one single performance.

Anyway, with this drum map, I'm able to play with the 4 Taikos patches in a single MIDI track, making improvisation and arrangement way more easy. Hope this can be of some help !

For those interested, here are the download links for the Taiko Drum Map used as an exemple : https://1drv.ms/u/s!AixpALAUNyH-qR7L5_e6eOwITBMr

And my little script for duplicating CC's :
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AixpALAUNyH-qRwu0_YwVtq7SyL0
*
*


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## christianhenson (Sep 22, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> I too am slightly worried with the trend. I fucking love me some Spitfire but I am genuinely worried. If you watch the Christian Henson vlogs you often get a look at the behind the scenes at Spitfire team... The first thing that struck me was how many employees they have, then the physical location, then the parts where it looks like they have a whole marketing team. I was trying to do some napkin math as too how much running an operation that size would cost (in London no less) and it wasn't cheap.
> 
> That was where the worries started then I looked at them as a company. They are essentially an orchestral sample library company who by this point has already sampled the orchestra multiple times, in multiple ways. I fear there are only so many different ways to sample it that would make people buy in the must have bulk of some of their current libraries. So the only other thing to do is branch into more niche categories, like they did with EDNA and Phobos...but these niche libraries are never going to sell like a Sable or Albion library (I assume with the nicheness) which means a company of the size they are would struggle to sustain inly doing those. Then the fear really sets in when I see all the current trend of re-releases and paid UI upgrades. I totally get why, as others have mentioned they have appear to have moved from a project based company to a profit based one, which makes sense as a company but as I mentioned above I again fear for the future given that they have already comprehensively sampled the orchestra to the top of the game already...a few times.
> 
> ...



Hi Dan,

I don't usually chime in off the commercial thread or my own vlog but I have to say in this instance that you are wrong mate, we haven't switched on the 'profit' tap by any means which is very evident by the massive investment Paul, Paul Kempe and myself continue to make in our company year after year. Really, you wait and see what is coming...

The reason for the re-packages could be attributed to us reaching a wider audience but it is also down to us listening to our customers at the many events we attend and what they told us about BML and Hans' lines is they're just too complicated and too big. So we've been rectifying this over the last couple of years, largely to the relief of our community. We have to finance this somehow, so we introduce a compulsion for new people to adopt. So whilst it could be called hype I would say it is simply a marketing team who are effectively delivering Paul and my undying enthusiasm. You're talking about two guys who have largely given up their childhood dreams of Oscar greatness by trying to convert a generation to orchestral music making.

But the reason I also say this is because very soon our direction will become very clear, you want more products? This is when I cackle like a vampire mwah mwah mwah! But we first wanted to listen to our customers, it started with renaming what was previously named after a rodent what it actually is; Chamber Strings, and so it follows through that HZ01 and HZ03 should become Hans Zimmer Percussion because that it what it is, and people (myself included) were totally in love with Hans' mixes and just wanted them with the choice in the future of upgrading to Geoff's mic fest as and when we thought out engineering chops were up to it. Just us listening and then doing the absolute best we can to make it as fair as possible.

With much love to you all, and a reminder, just two composers making sounds (with a fucking massive team now!) not cigar chomping capitalists!

C. x

**EDIT** a good example too is our investment in customer support which has been totally overhauled, we're now getting to those bugs quicker and I'm sure for any of you who have tried our live chat, we've got a lovely team of people here to help you (and write gorgeous user manuals.... phew!).


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## oliverd (Sep 22, 2017)

christianhenson said:


> Hi Dan,
> 
> 
> **EDIT** a good example too is our investment in customer support which has been totally overhauled, we're now getting to those bugs quicker and I'm sure for any of you who have tried our live chat, we've got a lovely team of people here to help you (and write gorgeous user manuals.... phew!).



Gotta say I spoke to customer support a few times over the past year and they've been incredibly helpful and super fast to respond


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## procreative (Sep 22, 2017)

Dave Connor said:


> Pardon the momentary hijack but I have wondered whether I was missing something in the interface. You seem to confirm that you can only mouse-click a drum selection in the interface and not change drums _within_ the interface via controller or KS etc. I thought I was missing something but is this what you're saying? Because I recently realized the only way around that is the additional instances and tracks you mentioned. Am I correct? (I agree this should be addressed of course.)



There are indeed keyswitches to change drums. However I find that a bit clunky as its very difficult in realtime to play combinations of drums and certainly not at the same time.



mc_deli said:


> I've read both threads, watch the HZp vids and read the web pages but still don't understand the mixes. Do the mixes include hidden features/processing that is not accessible by the user? How exactly is the basic HZp crippled so that you can't recreate the "mixes" in HZpp - is it just missing mics? Are the mixes just snapshots of the mix parameters on the GUI and mic choices or something else?



Basically you get the HZ set of Mics (Close, Room, Surround). This is from the Producer Presets section and gives you ability to mix the Mics, but these Mics are that particular producer's submix of probably a greater array of Mics, plus their processing of these.



christianhenson said:


> The reason for the re-packages could be attributed to us reaching a wider audience but it is also down to us listening to our customers at the many events we attend and what they told us about BML and Hans' lines is they're just too complicated and too big.



Generally thats fine and its not always necessary to crossgrade. But with HZ forcing a user to crossgrade at cost to get functionality that was missing is annoying, yes you get extra content but it would have been nice to have a choice.


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## Daniel James (Sep 22, 2017)

christianhenson said:


> you want more products? This is when I cackle like a vampire mwah mwah mwah!



THIS is the response I wanted. Like I was saying mate, I was going off of the things I could see, My wife runs a company so I understand how expensive wages are so when I saw the team size and the amount of investment going into the new products (ie the big AIR sessions) and the finite nature of how many ways you can record the orchestra I was just worried for the future.

I don't have access to the business plan and could only use my own eyes and napkin math...so I am glad to hear that I was off base on the switch to a profit based system, it was the most logical conclusion I came to given the factors I can see publicly....which actually clashes with this statement: "just two composers making sounds (with a fucking massive team now!) not cigar chomping capitalists!" ....in that the large team means that you have moved beyond just two composers making sounds (which is not a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination) and while you are not chomping you on cigars the constant investments and company growth firmly puts you in that capitalist camp.. again not a bad thing at all! You are a legitimate company who are trying to grow. So even though you have said I am wrong about profit being the driving factor now, surely you can see how I came to the conclusion given the fact the primary goal for a company (on paper at least) is to be profitable, and all the information I have access to implies that you are a legitimate large sample company that is constantly growing.

Just as a last point I only worry because I love  I want SF around for the long haul and to keep innovating.

-DJ


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 22, 2017)

+1 for wanting sf to be successful and release more awesome libraries. 

+1 for sf support. Always been helped in relatively quick time and always been polite.


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 22, 2017)

Alex Fraser said:


> Oh mate, I agree. To be clear the “finger of pontification” ™ was aimed squarely at myself.


Pontificate away, I say. It's what forums are for.


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## ctsai89 (Sep 22, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> I'm curious, do you not think Albion Tundra, LCO Strings, Bernard Herrman and Phobos are not Spitfire coming up with "more cooler products"? All very new releases.



They are. I'm just pushing for more even cooler ones because lately had been quiet  Albion VI??? Soon  but it will be harder as ideas are running out which I can understand


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## jamwerks (Sep 22, 2017)

These repackagings make sense for all. HZ01-03 wasn't worth it for me, but this is. SF is maximising profits & we are getting what we want; win-win situation!

One downside is that some early buyers may feel burned inspite of SF's clearly wanting to be as fair as possible.

One thing I'm frankly not happy about with the Mural repackaging, is that almost a year later, the stereo mixes still aren't even available. So it's not even a question of money, I'll pay for the upgrade, but after spending I think over 1k€, I have a library that I can't use like I want, and like I was able to before, so it's not getting used.

I don't know the reason, and I can't imagine what it is, but it seems like an unfair business policy to me.


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## Anders Bru (Sep 22, 2017)

I think the move to a more streamlined product-line is smart, but obviously makes it a bit confusing in the transitional phase. I own HZ01, and use it all the time (!), but honestly, the HZ-mixes are probably the least used for me. The Alan Meyerson and Junkie XL ones are my go-to, and sound great! I've never had a problem with the interface, as I have the individual articulations laid out in my template, and I can simply play several at once if I wish.

Spitfire is one of my favorite sample library developers, and I have many of their products (and will probably get more in the future  ), but I do wish they would go back and fix some stuff in their previous libraries before pushing new ones (like the phasing issues in Darwin Perc. in Albion ONE, missing samples in HZ01, etc.).


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## ctsai89 (Sep 22, 2017)

Anders Bru said:


> I think the move to a more streamlined product-line is smart, but obviously makes it a bit confusing in the transitional phase. I own HZ01, and use it all the time (!), but honestly, the HZ-mixes are probably the least used for me. The Alan Meyerson and Junkie XL ones are my go-to, and sound great! I've never had a problem with the interface, as I have the individual articulations laid out in my template, and I can simply play several at once if I wish.
> 
> Spitfire is one of my favorite sample library developers, and I have many of their products (and will probably get more in the future  ), but I do wish they would go back and fix some stuff in their previous libraries before pushing new ones (like the phasing issues in Darwin Perc. in Alb 1., missing samples in HZ01, etc.).



Just to be clear you meant Albion ONE. Plus it's not just phasing prolbems. Velocity problem as wells.


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## ctsai89 (Sep 22, 2017)

Wished they would add a cymbal rolls is it included in the new packaging


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## Anders Bru (Sep 22, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> Just to be clear you meant Albion ONE. Plus it's not just phasing prolbems. Velocity problem as wells.


You're right! Corrected it


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## mc_deli (Sep 22, 2017)

procreative said:


> Basically you get the HZ set of Mics (Close, Room, Surround). This is from the Producer Presets section and gives you ability to mix the Mics, but these Mics are that particular producer's submix of probably a greater array of Mics, plus their processing of these.


Thanks for replying. You say "probably" though. Why is this so murky? I still don't get what is in the product FFS (not addressed at you, just general OMG)


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## Kaufmanmoon (Sep 22, 2017)

I was about to pull the trigger on HZ01 last week but waited. Even after this news I still think grabbing HZ01 with the Junkie XL mixes included will be my best bet. 
Reading threads and seeing interviews, the Junkie XL are a more processed bigger sound whereas the Hans mixes are in fact a little more tame and realistic (whatever that means) Like FGBR said I would rather grab the pro edition but I'm happy to get HZ01 and upgrade to the pro version later.
Weirdly I've not really noticed people complaining about the mapping before but like most things in life, I'm probably looking in the wrong place.
Albion ONE's percussion. Lordy lord I wish they'd fix those phasing issues. Any chances Christian?


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## mouse (Sep 22, 2017)

So...just to confirm, if I have HZ01 but not HZ03, I pay for the update, but if I buy HZ03, I'll get the update for free as I own both HZ01 + HZ03?

If so...I guess I'd better buy HZ03. Can anyone comment on how much different HZ03 is from HZ01? I use HZ01 a decent amount but I don't know if I'd get that much use out of HZ03 as I don't need soloist drums that much....


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## mac (Sep 22, 2017)

The only thing that bothers me about devs that release new old libraries are that I'm constantly second guessing that a newer version will be released soon - case in point for me is Spitfires Uist. I've put off purchasing that library for over a year now because I feel like Spitfire _might_ release a reworked Albion collection of some sort, or at least an updated version of the older titles. 

It might be that I have a case of OCD, but I hate having old redundant software on my system. It drove me nuts when the new versions of Arturias V titles didn't update and replace the ones from V4.


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## VinRice (Sep 22, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> I've read both threads, watch the HZp vids and read the web pages but still don't understand the mixes. Do the mixes include hidden features/processing that is not accessible by the user? How exactly is the basic HZp crippled so that you can't recreate the "mixes" in HZpp - is it just missing mics? Are the mixes just snapshots of the mix parameters on the GUI and mic choices or something else?



I don't think you understand how these things are recorded. It's not 3 sets of stereo pairs - there were probably several dozen microphones up of all different types. Also we know that they used two sets of pre-amps, two sets of converters and two separate ProTools rigs. Post-recording you will end up with maybe a hundred tracks or more. 

These will be stemmed down by the project engineer into logical groups and then Hans, Tom etc will get to provide their input to mix down those 20 or so stems to their preferred close, mid and far mixes with whatever eq and compression they deem appropriate. 

The mixes all have a different sound, dynamic range and level of ambience so you can see that it would indeed be impossible to 'convert' one mix to another. This is not done to cynically "cripple" anything - it is the nature of sound production at this very elevated level.


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## VinRice (Sep 22, 2017)

mouse said:


> So...just to confirm, if I have HZ01 but not HZ03, I pay for the update, but if I buy HZ03, I'll get the update for free as I own both HZ01 + HZ03?
> 
> If so...I guess I'd better buy HZ03. Can anyone comment on how much different HZ03 is from HZ01? I use HZ01 a decent amount but I don't know if I'd get that much use out of HZ03 as I don't need soloist drums that much....



Buying HZ03 will cost you more than the upgrade from HZ Perc to HZ Perc Pro so that's probably not a very sensible thing to do unless you need HZ03 today.


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## mouse (Sep 22, 2017)

VinRice said:


> Buying HZ03 will cost you more than the upgrade from HZ Perc to HZ Perc Pro so that's probably not a very sensible thing to do unless you need HZ03 today.



So wait until HZ Perc Pro is released to get HZ03 and all the new content for cheaper than HZ03 costs now?


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## VinRice (Sep 22, 2017)

mouse said:


> So wait until HZ Perc Pro is released to get HZ03 and all the new content for cheaper than HZ03 costs now?


 You need to read through the two forum threads and the FAQ's on Spitfire's site.


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## mouse (Sep 22, 2017)

VinRice said:


> You need to read through the two forum threads and the FAQ's on Spitfire's site.



Yea sorry my bad - going back over it all now :D


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## Orkpack (Sep 22, 2017)

I have HZ1......i Thing thats enough. I´m a big fan of Spitfire Audio.....but now its getting to complicated to me. I am only a Composer but this is Spitfire rocket science. I´m out.


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## NoamL (Sep 22, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> They are essentially an orchestral sample library company who by this point has already sampled the orchestra multiple times, in multiple ways.



Despite the fact that you've received a reply from SF themselves!, I can't help feeling you made a key point here.

I see three things going on with SF - first they continue to do cool, ambitious, risky projects like Phobos and Sacconi that may/may not pay off. Second they continue to do more Albions and EVOs which I bet are a lot closer to a sure hit. And finally this "rationalization" (and because this is the Sample forum I'll give some unvarnished opinion here) I think they are doing this, as is 8Dio, because they are facing off vs new developers whose libraries are already "rationalized" in that they take considerable lessons learned from what worked and didn't work in EastWest Hollywood Series and Spitfire British Modular Library. Necessarily there's a limit to how much you can update a product to compete with a successor (Musical Sampling, Berlin Series, Cinematic Studio etc.) that took your product as its point of departure in design.

Now, these successor products, not to flatter them _too_ much, seem to be reaching up to the limit of what orchestral samples can do. At least the way I see it, the ceiling is no longer RAM or whatever. It's that the more broadly and deeply you sample, the more you risk having samples that don't cohere. Seen in that light the Hollywood Series is kind of amazing in how well different articulations _kind of_ work together. Of course the developers that followed really nailed that idea and retrospectively exposed how flawed the first attempt was. Anyway the breadth and depth of sampling is getting astonishing and the musicians holding it all together with one vibe and one musicality is starting to feel like the limiting factor. Libs like Berlin Brass show that even with really good methodology (I assume) getting 11 sampling sessions to blend without being able to hear each other is one hell of a challenge. So, really, what's left to do?


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## ArtTurnerMusic (Sep 22, 2017)

VinRice said:


> Buying HZ03 will cost you more than the upgrade from HZ Perc to HZ Perc Pro so that's probably not a very sensible thing to do unless you need HZ03 today.



So if HZ03 is $199 today, and my cross grade as an HZ01 owner is $106, it seems remarkable that the upgrade from HZ Perc to HZ Perc Pro will be less than $93. Can someone from SpitfireAudio confirm this?


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## Ryan99 (Sep 22, 2017)

ArtTurnerMusic said:


> So if HZ03 is $199 today, and my cross grade as an HZ01 owner is $106, it seems remarkable that the upgrade from HZ Perc to HZ Perc Pro will be less than $93. Can someone from SpitfireAudio confirm this?


They already replied to me to this question on the other thread. They answered me that the best bet financially would be to get HZ Perc, then HZ Perc Pro instead of HZ03.


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## ArtTurnerMusic (Sep 22, 2017)

Ryan99 said:


> They already replied to me to this question on the other thread. They answered me that the best bet financially would be to get HZ Perc, then HZ Perc Pro instead of HZ03.


Thanks. I think I saw that, but was hoping for numbers to base my decision on. Of course I realize they have no obligation to tell me.


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## khollister (Sep 22, 2017)

So I did a little speculative arithmetic. The expansions for SSB and SCS are 65% of the base product. I also noticed the cross grade price for HZ03 is $200 instead of 100. Using the non-promo price of $400, I get about $85 for the HZPP upgrade from HZ01 & HZP




ArtTurnerMusic said:


> Thanks. I think I saw that, but was hoping for numbers to base my decision on. Of course I realize they have no obligation to tell me.


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## Dave Connor (Sep 22, 2017)

procreative said:


> There are indeed keyswitches to change drums. However I find that a bit clunky as its very difficult in realtime to play combinations of drums and certainly not at the same time.


 Hmm, well I'm unable to switch between [for example] Taiko and Taiko Ensemble with the KS so no idea here. Thanks for help. Apologies to others.


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## procreative (Sep 22, 2017)

Dave Connor said:


> Hmm, well I'm unable to switch between [for example] Taiko and Taiko Ensemble with the KS so no idea here. Thanks for help. Apologies to others.



Well what is very confusing in the GUI is what look like KS are in fact RR resets. The KS are the keys starting at C1. But they are a bit nonsensical if you are writing a rhythm using more than one Taiko type.


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## thereus (Sep 22, 2017)

NoamL said:


> Despite the fact that you've received a reply from SF themselves!, I can't help feeling you made a key point here.
> 
> I see three things going on with SF - first they continue to do cool, ambitious, risky projects like Phobos and Sacconi that may/may not pay off. Second they continue to do more Albions and EVOs which I bet are a lot closer to a sure hit. And finally this "rationalization" (and because this is the Sample forum I'll give some unvarnished opinion here) I think they are doing this, as is 8Dio, because they are facing off vs new developers whose libraries are already "rationalized" in that they take considerable lessons learned from what worked and didn't work in EastWest Hollywood Series and Spitfire British Modular Library. Necessarily there's a limit to how much you can update a product to compete with a successor (Musical Sampling, Berlin Series, Cinematic Studio etc.) that took your product as its point of departure in design.
> 
> Now, these successor products, not to flatter them _too_ much, seem to be reaching up to the limit of what orchestral samples can do. At least the way I see it, the ceiling is no longer RAM or whatever. It's that the more broadly and deeply you sample, the more you risk having samples that don't cohere. Seen in that light the Hollywood Series is kind of amazing in how well different articulations _kind of_ work together. Of course the developers that followed really nailed that idea and retrospectively exposed how flawed the first attempt was. Anyway the breadth and depth of sampling is getting astonishing and the musicians holding it all together with one vibe and one musicality is starting to feel like the limiting factor. Libs like Berlin Brass show that even with really good methodology (I assume) getting 11 sampling sessions to blend without being able to hear each other is one hell of a challenge. So, really, what's left to do?


What's left to do??!!

There are still thousands more sounds an orchestral instrument can make than its sampled equivalent. Sample libraries are essentially still just glorified romplers invented by synth players for synth players. Push buttons one at a time and get sounds one at a time. Orchestral musicians play phrases of infinite subtlety. Sampling by itself might soon hit a limit, but new technologies will take VIs much much further yet. I don't know if spitfire will be the company to do it or not, but soon enough someone will.


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## Saxer (Sep 22, 2017)

Same confusion and discussions happened with the Sable and Mural and BML transfers. But now they are much better products. No more unsuccessful update folders and Sable volume-II+III version-IV update patches and such. Every big library has to go that way to grow up (remembering the first EastWest Kompact Player versions , the old VSL player stuff or 8dios evolution of strings over several libraries... even rather bug-free news like CSS have the history of Cinematic I and II strings including years of user feedbacks). All the mentioned libraries were commercial stuff and did their jobs for that time.

Though it isn't always easy to replace older versions (with the backward compatibility problems when loading older songs) it ends up with better products for the majority of users. Good work.

I have no HZ drums/percussions up to now but this package looks interesting. I'll wait for the Pro version to compare before purchasing.


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## JohnG (Sep 22, 2017)

I agree in the main with Saxer. I have am super happy with the move from BML series, Mural, and Sable etc. to their new incarnations.

I'm particularly excited about the legato scripting which (especially with the strings) is a very noticeable and excellent improvement.

There are still fixes needed in some cases with the libraries -- for me mostly tuning here and there -- but I am enjoying making musical-sounding stuff with them.

I plan to look at this new incarnation of the drums.


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## prodigalson (Sep 22, 2017)

In general, I feel the move to the new packaging of the libraries is an improvement and generally speaking feel that the improvement in functionality is worth the potential reduction in content etc

The only exception for me is the decision to package the outrigger mics the in the expansion pack. It is absolutely infuriating to me as I relied heavily on those mics and to me they are not an additional color, they should absolutely be with the core CTA offering


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## markleake (Sep 22, 2017)

prodigalson said:


> The only exception for me is the decision to package the outrigger mics the in the expansion pack. It is absolutely infuriating to me as I relied heavily on those mics and to me they are not an additional color, they should absolutely be with the core CTA offering


I'm with you on this, especially because I like to mix and match a LOT between the Albions and the SSO libraries. The outriggers in the Albions really are very useful. But I think they did this deliberately so that people would have a good reason to buy the expansions... which is understandable, if inconvenient. The upside is that people like me were able to get a foot in the door into the old BML range, so I'm not going to complain about it.


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## markleake (Sep 22, 2017)

Re: The question of how to upgrade from HZ01 to get the equivalent content of both HZ01 and HZ03.

I have just HZ01. I'm just going to wait and see what SF reveals in terms of the Pro pricing. It is difficult to work out all the $ amounts when comparing the different options, especially when needing to account for the multiple currency conversions for where I live, which adds a whole other level to it. So hopefully they give us more info that will explain, and I can then work out if I want HZ03 at that price. I don't think I'd be too interested in just the HZ mixes for the solo percussion - Pro is of more interest to me.

I'm still confused about the mixes also. At the moment I am assuming that HZ01 + HZ03 = HZ Percussion Pro (with updated interface) and all the final mixes in PRO are the same as the original HZ01 and 03. But I haven't seen SF confirm this.


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## Raphioli (Sep 22, 2017)

markleake said:


> I'm still confused about the mixes also. At the moment I am assuming that HZ01 + HZ03 = HZ Percussion Pro (with updated interface) and all the final mixes in PRO are the same as the original HZ01 and 03. But I haven't seen SF confirm this.



Their Q&A says the Pro is a "consolidation". And also says, "you have everything from the two recording blocks", so I'm assuming you have everything from HZ01 and HZ03.
Unlike SSO where they mentioned they cherry-picked the best of the best from the BML series.

https://www.spitfireaudio.com/info/faq/hans-zimmer-percussion/


> *IF HANS ZIMMER PERCUSSION PROFESSIONAL IS ONLY CONTENT FROM HZ01 AND HZ03, WHAT’S NEW?*
> 
> *The consolidation of HZ01 and HZ03 means that you can have everything from the two recording blocks at Air Studios in one place.*


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## Erick - BVA (Sep 23, 2017)

I think a subscription model may have 


Daniel James said:


> I too am slightly worried with the trend. I fucking love me some Spitfire but I am genuinely worried. If you watch the Christian Henson vlogs you often get a look at the behind the scenes at Spitfire team... The first thing that struck me was how many employees they have, then the physical location, then the parts where it looks like they have a whole marketing team. I was trying to do some napkin math as too how much running an operation that size would cost (in London no less) and it wasn't cheap.
> 
> That was where the worries started then I looked at them as a company. They are essentially an orchestral sample library company who by this point has already sampled the orchestra multiple times, in multiple ways. I fear there are only so many different ways to sample it that would make people buy in the must have bulk of some of their current libraries.
> -DJ



I definitely think a Subscription plan would help their sustainability, as it would open up their market to a whole slew of less wealthy musician's/composers, who don't quite make enough to buy their stuff, but do make enough to justify a $30 a month investment.


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## Michael Antrum (Sep 23, 2017)

How on earth can you do subscription when your platform is Kontakt... ? 

I rather think those who have sunk thousands into Spitfire libraries might have a view on it too.....


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## Erick - BVA (Sep 23, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> How on earth can you do subscription when your platform is Kontakt... ?
> 
> I rather think those who have sunk thousands into Spitfire libraries might have a view on it too.....



Good point. I've spent a bit on Spitfire libraries as well.
But they could do something similar to Eventide and Roland.
With Eventide, for how ever many plugins you bought already, you get a month free. So I took advantage of that whilst working on Chordscape.
With Roland, every 12 months paying for a sub (not necessarily consecutively) you get a full license of a plugin (and not needing the sub to use it).
Although I much prefer Steven Duda's approach with Serum (through splice) --a rent to own plan, where you can pay 10 dollars a month and own it after 18 months I think. You can start and stop the plan too, with no repercussions.
There are ways to make a subscription plan affordable and attractive to everyone involved.


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## Erick - BVA (Sep 23, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> How on earth can you do subscription when your platform is Kontakt... ?



That would be a tricky one there. They may have to develop their own "player" engine like EW. Though, maybe NI will start to make their process more compatible with sub plan developers? Another good point though. I'm just wishing, that's all.


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## AllanH (Sep 23, 2017)

I appreciate that Spitfire learns from their past releases and takes the time to create new versions. I'm not expecting to get e.g. Office 2016 for free even though I paid for 2013 and they share maybe 80% of the code. In this way, Spitfire is more generous than e.g. Microsoft as Spitfire does recognize past purchases.


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## Dave Connor (Sep 23, 2017)

procreative said:


> Well what is very confusing in the GUI is what look like KS are in fact RR resets. The KS are the keys starting at C1. But they are a bit nonsensical if you are writing a rhythm using more than one Taiko type.


Thank you so much! Solved a big problem for me! (I see your point on the mapping of course.)


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## SillyMidOn (Sep 23, 2017)

christianhenson said:


> Hi Dan,
> 
> I don't usually chime in off the commercial thread or my own vlog but I have to say in this instance that you are wrong mate, we haven't switched on the 'profit' tap by any means which is very evident by the massive investment Paul, Paul Kempe and myself continue to make in our company year after year. Really, you wait and see what is coming...
> 
> ...


My gripe though is the following:
I own and love HZ01. I never bought HZ 03 as I didn't feel I needed it, especially as I felt as it was incomplete, as it did not feature a solo version of every instrument included in HZ 01 - had this been this case, so every ensemble Taiko from HZ 01 is also present as a solo articulation on HZ 03, I would have considered it, but as it is HZ03 is not the complete solo version of HZ 01 (there are NO solo taiko recordings, for example). 

So I don't need HZ03, but now that you have updated this line to HZ Percussion, will I be left on an old product, that won't be updated, by sticking with HZ 01 and one day this may not work with a future version of Kontakt? 

Because, as it stands, the people who only own HZ 01 cannot upgrade to a (fictional/non existent) repacked HZ 01 Percussion, as no such thing exists. Before you split the package between HZ 01 (ensembles) and HZ 03 (solos), but included all the extra artists' mixes on HZ 01 anyway (which, by the way, are fantastic). But now you are packing the ensemble and solo recording together, but splitting the package by giving customer the HZ mixes only, and all the other mixes in the PRO version.

So first you split the cake horizontally, now you are splitting it vertically, it is quite frankly highly annoying.

You could have re-released the products wth the new GUI and functionality by still splitting them in the same way, i.e. Ensembles/Solos, instead of splitting them by Standard/Pro, but there is no doubt you did the latter to earn some extra dosh.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Sep 23, 2017)

@SillyMidOn, I hate to be that guy but... The taikos from HZ01 are solo instruments (Large, High and Low).


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## Paul Thomson (Sep 23, 2017)

Yes - you already have the solo taikos.


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## Erick - BVA (Sep 23, 2017)

I thinks it difficult to be all things to all people. I think the best any developer can do is listen to the complaints or suggestions by the majority of people. It is clear that Spitfire is trying to make the best tools they can.


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## lp59burst (Sep 23, 2017)

SoNowWhat? said:


> +1 for wanting sf to be successful and release more awesome libraries.
> 
> +1 for sf support. Always been helped in relatively quick time and always been polite.


+1 for making a profit whilst doing so to encourage them to continue...


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## AdamKmusic (Sep 24, 2017)

Are some of the releases not working properly? Some seem to end abruplety regardless of where the release slider is. Might be an issue with Kontakt 5.7.


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## ModalRealist (Sep 24, 2017)

I expect it is only a matter of time before Spitfire introduce some form of subscription model, alongside their own sample player. They have already gotten into software development with their Phobos plugin. Sure, a sampler is a much bigger endeavour, but VSL handled it just fine, and there'll be no lack of access to programming talent being based in London.

If I were them, I'd be getting those excellent Kontakt scripters behind stuff like the Performance Legatos, to be drawing up their "wishlist" of software features or ease-of-use tools that they don't have in Kontakt (I'm sure they could come up with such a list). Set that up as (along with core functionality) the spec for a new sample player engine.

Then, free from Kontakt's code base, you could implement both a subscription model which gives access to "core" libraries, and reserve certain libraries (and/or expansions) to one-off purchases with big price tags. That way, you'd capture the lower end of the market, and you'd still have high-ticket items for pros and/or desperate amateurs to whale on.

Sure, some people'd be pissed, but would that make sales suffer that much? I can't believe that. Dedicated existing customers are already "in" Spitfire's sonic world: there'd be a lot of cost (monetary and creative and time-wise) to migrating away. Less dedicated customers will probably be thankful for the subscription model, and still end up forking out for some of the big-ticket items down the road.

Spitfire have always looked after their branding carefully, and seem to have aligned it to a certain kind of "it'll mystically make you sound great" kind of vibe. (Compare OrchestralTools or VSL, with their comparably functional, down-to-earth style). That vibe SF have cultivated would easily play into a sub+big-ticket model.


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## markleake (Sep 24, 2017)

@ModalRealist Interesting speculation, but I think SF in the past have suggested they aren't interested in this kind of model, haven't they?


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## playz123 (Sep 24, 2017)

"Subscription"? One of the 'words' in the English language that I detest the most.  You are perhaps wrong too about many loyal Spitfire customers...like me for example. If Spitfire or any other developer ever went to ONLY a subscription program, it would be the last time they see me. Still back on Adobe's CS5 for that exact reason, and I also won't consider offers like the Slate subscription one, no matter how good their plugins are. At least with Slate one has choices, and if a developer still made it attractive to buy as well as subscribe then that changes things.


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## procreative (Sep 24, 2017)

Any sample developer with ambitions for their own sample player need only look at Play for an example of how to damage your reputation and open up a world of endless tech support and OS compatibility woes. You need very deep pockets to support it which is why NI opened up their 3rd party player license revenue stream I imagine.


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## ModalRealist (Sep 24, 2017)

@playz123: I'm not suggesting they'd go sub-only. I'm suggesting they'd move some products to a sub (e.g., the SSO, without expansions) while precisely keeping a selection of old and new libraries to-buy, but with higher prices. At the moment, their re-releases offer "old content" at a lower price. A sub model which could capture even more amateurs/dabblers will eventually be the only "way down". This doesn't mean they'll stop offering content to-buy. Quite the opposite: the sub is a gateway drug to buying big-ticket exclusive products.

@procreative: just because EastWest screwed up Play doesn't mean that anyone else needs to screw up. VSL are just fine, for example. Given they have now gotten into software development, rather than just Kontakt development, I hardly see this as impossible.

FWIW, I ain't going to be buying any Spitfire stuff either way... Until someone totally revolutionises sample-based music, e.g., by combining NotePerformer's automatic expressiveness with SF/OT sound quality and SM-level control, I'll stick to what I've got and spend my pennies hiring live orchestra to record with.


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## Alex Fraser (Sep 24, 2017)

There are still lower product tiers that SF could offer without upsetting existing users.

How about “Spitfire Symphony Orchestra SE?” A simplified version of the orchestra product with less articualtions for around half the price of the current offering?

Those folks have such a massive sound library, they could mix and match existing material for ages.

Subs are well and good, but you need a selection of lower tier products to offer as part of the deal. I’m not up to speed with the composer cloud offering, but it’s my understanding the top line libraries aren’t part of the deal?


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## ctsai89 (Sep 24, 2017)

Alex Fraser said:


> There are still lower product tiers that SF could offer without upsetting existing users.
> 
> How about “Spitfire Symphony Orchestra SE?” A simplified version of the orchestra product with less articualtions for around half the price of the current offering?
> 
> ...


 Wouldn't that be just like Albion ONE though?


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## Alex Fraser (Sep 24, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> Wouldn't that be just like Albion ONE though?



Good point, but in my budget fantasy, no! 
You’d still get the individual instruments (not ensemble like Albion) but only the basic artics like legato, staccato, pizz etc.

Maybe just the single near/far mic slider etc.


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## ctsai89 (Sep 24, 2017)

Alex Fraser said:


> Good point, but in my budget fantasy, no!
> You’d still get the individual instruments (not ensemble like Albion) but only the basic artics like legato, staccato, pizz etc.
> 
> Maybe just the single near/far mic slider etc.



I would doubt that it would be much cheaper.... Legato alone is probably worth well over 50% of the price.

Maybe Spitfire Orchestra without the legatoes but just long short and pizz? 

edit: remember that legatoes are overrated. It won't allow you to just type in the notes easily because there are always delays. 

Simulating legatoes with longs could be pretty rewarding and sometimes less work with a bit of sacrificed realism


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## Vastman (Sep 24, 2017)

maybe this off topic discussion should move to it's own thread?


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## Vastman (Sep 24, 2017)

I've considered HZ for a long time but it seemed way too cumbersome & costly in it's original iteration... This new offering seems much improved but we now have the other new entry, Strikeforce, which has an interesting approach and seems pretty cool from DJ's mega live stream... and is about the same price.

Very different approaches... any thoughts on the two would be welcome... anyone get them both???


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## zeng (Sep 24, 2017)

Hello people,

How can you deal with this;

You examine a new product (HZ Perc in this case), new samples, new GUI etc...you listen new demos made with that new VST. But you decide not to buy it because of its price, upgrade policy, etc. And you continue to compose your music with your available products (another/old percussion library in this case). How do you achieve to forget the new VST's sound, content?


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## Orchestrata (Sep 25, 2017)

Alex Fraser said:


> I’m not up to speed with the composer cloud offering, but it’s my understanding the top line libraries aren’t part of the deal?



They are, it's just that with some you don't get all the mic positions. Subscribed early on, so the price is reasonable, and have found it a great way to gauge which of the products I really wanted, and which I don't like. Kind of a "try before buy". Since EW still offer the option to actually buy the products, as my second year comes to an end I've started buying the ones I've continuously used, and prepared to say goodbye to the ones that didn't appeal to me. If I look at all the products I would otherwise have bought, but have found I don't like in practice, I'll have saved several hundred dollars by the end, even with the subscription fee. Also, I'll be getting Hollywood Choirs as part of the subscription, which is very exciting 

With Spitfire, I'd absolutely buy into a subscription for a year or so, as I own almost none of their libraries, and invest in the most useful ones without fear of buyers remorse. But to each his own  If they move to subscription-only, though, I doubt I'll buy in. That business model is poison.


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## Orchestrata (Sep 25, 2017)

To bring it back on topic, though, I bought Hans Zimmer Percussion immediately, since I've been considering HZ01 and HZ03 for a while but have been put off by the price (I have so many percussion libraries already :/). But this felt like a safe way to dip my toes in the water and, judging by how much I've enjoyed it, I'll likely upgrade to Pro, if only for the JXL mixes I keep hearing about  So, I guess I was very much the target market for this, and it worked like a charm. Thanks, Spitfire!


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## SpitfireSupport (Sep 25, 2017)

ArtTurnerMusic said:


> So if HZ03 is $199 today, and my cross grade as an HZ01 owner is $106, it seems remarkable that the upgrade from HZ Perc to HZ Perc Pro will be less than $93. Can someone from SpitfireAudio confirm this?


I'm a little late to this as we check "non-commercial" threads a little less rigorously. The crossgrade price to HZ Perc Pro will be less for you if you already own HZ01 than if you didn't, so for YOU yes, the crossgrade price will be less than $93 but it will be more than that for those that did not already own HZ01 before this all began!


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## procreative (Sep 25, 2017)

SpitfireSupport said:


> I'm a little late to this as we check "non-commercial" threads a little less rigorously. The crossgrade price to HZ Perc Pro will be less for you if you already own HZ01 than if you didn't, so for YOU yes, the crossgrade price will be less than $93 but it will be more than that for those that did not already own HZ01 before this all began!



I really think the price for HZ01 owners to get Pro should be announced a.s.a.p. as well as the likely availability timeframe. Its very hard making decisions on whether to "crossgrade" without having all the full information.


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## SillyMidOn (Sep 25, 2017)

whitewasteland said:


> @SillyMidOn, I hate to be that guy but... The taikos from HZ01 are solo instruments (Large, High and Low).


Haha, no worries, thanks for pointing that out, which if you think about it, in fact makes me even less inclined to need/want HZ 03, right?

It is, though secondary to my main points, the other being, which I failed to add, that even if I were to upgrade to New HZ Platinum or whatever they decided to call it, I still have the issue of:

a) the same samples sitting twice on my ssd, for no good reason (having to keep HZ 01 to open old/recent projects)

b) if HZ 01 suddenly stops working thanks to a Kontakt upgrade, and even if I have the new HZ I still have the issue of not being able to load old projects - it's less of a problem with HZ, as there are few patches, but this exact problem happened to me (and others) with Steven Slate drums when they ditched Kontakt. Even though I had the new version withe the new (ugly) GUI, I could not open old projects with Steven Slate drums Kontakt version in them, as for months Kontakt refused to do this - this was eventually fixed, but a major pain, as I tend to put my kits together by hand, and tweak the drum hits individually at times.

Thanks a bunch to the Spitfire owners for not answering my point, by the way!


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## SillyMidOn (Sep 25, 2017)

SpitfireSupport said:


> I'm a little late to this as we check "non-commercial" threads a little less rigorously. The crossgrade price to HZ Perc Pro will be less for you if you already own HZ01 than if you didn't, so for YOU yes, the crossgrade price will be less than $93 but it will be more than that for those that did not already own HZ01 before this all began!


Could you just be transparent and tell is what that would be? Is that too much to ask? 

This feels like buying a plane ticket with Ryanair....


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## sostenuto (Sep 25, 2017)

No HZ Perc now, but serious about the new Lib, and likely Pro Upgrade soon. 
Confused re. HZ_02. (edit *02*) *Apologies!*

Is HZ_0*2*  content now part of HZ Percussion or planned for Pro ?


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## Welldone (Sep 25, 2017)

sostenuto said:


> No HZ Perc now, but serious about the new Lib, and likely Pro Upgrade soon. Confused re. HZ_03.
> Is HZ_03 content now part of HZ Percussion or planned for Pro ?



The HZ_03 content is part of HZ Percussion. With the upgrade to Pro you get more mixes than the Hans Zimmer ones in the non-pro version.


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## sostenuto (Sep 25, 2017)

Welldone said:


> The HZ_03 content is part of HZ Percussion. With the upgrade to Pro you get more mixes than the Hans Zimmer ones in the non-pro version.



Major SORRY !!  Meant HZ_*02* 
 Is any HZ_02 content to be in new HZ Pro/Premium Percussion release later ?

Rcvd answer from SF Support telecom !  

NO HZ_02 to be involved ... which could have been inferred from site pricing info.


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