# Composers lose luster



## choc0thrax (Dec 8, 2009)

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118012324.html?categoryid=13&cs=1&ref=bd_film (http://www.variety.com/article/VR111801 ... ef=bd_film)

Nothing new but ehhhhhh...


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## lux (Dec 8, 2009)

i like good news, thanks


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## Frederick Russ (Dec 8, 2009)

"Today's filmmaker is more inclined to think 'I need a composer because I'm just too busy to do it myself' and there are literally hundreds of kids out there who will do it for next to nothing."

This prevailing mentality is why I've wondered about the proposed union actually pricing composers out of the market in favor of those willing to do it for next to nothing, calling themselves music editors instead.


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## lux (Dec 8, 2009)

having a 30sec thought at it i suspect filmmakers are just less used to hear good stuff due to the lazy and poor approach of actually working composer probably. I would not explain otherwise. so dont blame filmmakers

anyway this is time for having back our beloved synth based soundtracks. Synths will beat sound design, at least i hope so. There are a few nice examples actually out there, so there's hope


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## midphase (Dec 8, 2009)

"This prevailing mentality is why I've wondered about the proposed union actually pricing composers out of the market in favor of those willing to do it for next to nothing, calling themselves music editors instead."

I don't think so. That type of mentality is at work right now, and I don't think the union would accelerate it anymore than it already is. I think that mentality is more indicative of the dumbing down of directors and producers than it is about composers willing to work for next to nothing. I think that having a union, and most importantly having some big names advocate and speak up about composers, will help and not hurt. The only people who directors admire are more successful directors. If Spielberg or Scorsese took out full page ads in the major magazines and advocated the idea that experienced composers will make a difference in the quality of the film, that would have such a profound impact.

I can dream!


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## Hannes_F (Dec 8, 2009)

All I can say is, push the envelope, guys, in every way you can. Really.


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## Brobdingnagian (Dec 8, 2009)

Optimist.........
What an absolutely delightful read. Call me footloose and fancy free, but I even feel optimistic about my current and future career path. 

Deluded Dreamer........
If only I had sold my soul and taken that RCP gig that I landed off of Craig's List.....then I would be "safe."

Fool.......
Wow, now with that new Scoretrack/Garage Band thing-a-ma-jig I can compete.
Isn't technology great? It really levels the playing field!



Pragmatic Realist........
So true. The value on the craft of understanding and working with a visual narrative 
has never been less appreciated. Many indie directors haven't managed to achieve that in their scripts/films/POS......how are they going to hear it?

I am sure Burlingame (a SMART, well-informed man) hopes to start what Midphase scribed above. We'll see...........


PS-For fun, feel free to add-on to my list....


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## theheresy (Dec 8, 2009)

Frederick Russ @ Tue Dec 08 said:


> "Today's filmmaker is more inclined to think 'I need a composer because I'm just too busy to do it myself' and there are literally hundreds of kids out there who will do it for next to nothing."
> 
> This prevailing mentality is why I've wondered about the proposed union actually pricing composers out of the market in favor of those willing to do it for next to nothing, calling themselves music editors instead.



exactly..that's why I'm assuming such a union would never work. At MY level where I'm not even semi-professional yet let alone professional like some of you guys or guys in hollywood etc, I will GLADLY take a FREE feature film just to have the credit on my resumé and exposure etc so in an age where the directors barely even care about the music anymore and when the musicality and ability to even understand music is at an all time low in hollywood, this would be a hugely great thing for me. I would get the jobs over all the guys pricing themselves out even though I'd do it for free or for pennies. I'm lucky to have recently got a gig for a couple grand $ but the truth that the film makers don't know is that I would have gladly done it for free if they asked. It's sad but it's dog eat dog, survival of the fittest out there. A guy like me with not that much credits and a lousy resumé doesn't have the luxury of sitting back and being choosy, "Oh they're not paying enough humphh! Screw them I'll get another gig." Heck no I'll do most decent gigs for absolute FREE just for the exposure etc and I know for a fact so will all of my peers and every composer I know closely at MY level...so by default that makes that unionization concept sort of flawed.


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## Brian Ralston (Dec 8, 2009)

theheresy @ Tue Dec 08 said:


> exactly..that's why I'm assuming such a union would never work. At MY level where I'm not even semi-professional yet let alone professional like some of you guys or guys in hollywood etc, I will GLADLY take a FREE feature film just to have the credit on my resumé and exposure etc so in an age where the directors barely even care about the music anymore and when the musicality and ability to even understand music is at an all time low in hollywood, this would be a hugely great thing for me. I would get the jobs over all the guys pricing themselves out even though I'd do it for free or for pennies. I'm lucky to have recently got a gig for a couple grand $ but the truth that the film makers don't know is that I would have gladly done it for free if they asked. It's sad but it's dog eat dog, survival of the fittest out there. A guy like me with not that much credits and a lousy resumé doesn't have the luxury of sitting back and being choosy, "Oh they're not paying enough humphh! Screw them I'll get another gig." Heck no I'll do most decent gigs for absolute FREE just for the exposure etc and I know for a fact so will all of my peers and every composer I know closely at MY level...so by default that makes that unionization concept sort of flawed.



Not necessarily. The way it is proposed now...union composers would be able to do non-union work if they simply report to the union that they are doing so. So then...a non-union guy would have to compete against the scenario where a non-union production who could in fact hire a union guy and then brag "hey, we even have a union composer working on this...aren't we special." etc...etc... Anything to bolster the selling points of a film.

And yes...the indie low budget level composer would only directly benefit from a union if their fly by night production company became a signatory to the composer union...which most indie productions would never do. So...if the production company making the film is not a signatory, you would not be covered under any union rules or protections/agreements. But that does not necessarily make the whole concept flawed. Some challenges ahead in how it would work...yes, definitely. But flawed from the get go? Not really. 

If union composers are covered under their higher profile "studio" level gigs and still have the freedom to score the occasional "non-union" indie gig because it has merit and potential...the better "non-union films" will be harder and harder for new guys to get on if those productions can still get a bigger "union" guy for their same budget. I think this will ultimately make it harder for new composers to break in and thus further thin the herd of guys flooding in every year. Which I agree with Kays....would not be such a bad thing overall for the profession. Sorry to say to some folks out there.


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## midphase (Dec 8, 2009)

"exactly..that's why I'm assuming such a union would never work. At MY level where I'm not even semi-professional yet let alone professional like some of you guys or guys in hollywood etc, I will GLADLY take a FREE feature film just to have the credit on my resumé and exposure etc so in an age where the directors barely even care about the music anymore and when the musicality and ability to even understand music is at an all time low in hollywood, this would be a hugely great thing for me. I would get the jobs over all the guys pricing themselves out even though I'd do it for free or for pennies. I'm lucky to have recently got a gig for a couple grand $ but the truth that the film makers don't know is that I would have gladly done it for free if they asked. It's sad but it's dog eat dog, survival of the fittest out there. A guy like me with not that much credits and a lousy resumé doesn't have the luxury of sitting back and being choosy, "Oh they're not paying enough humphh! Screw them I'll get another gig." Heck no I'll do most decent gigs for absolute FREE just for the exposure etc and I know for a fact so will all of my peers and every composer I know closely at MY level...so by default that makes that unionization concept sort of flawed."


TheHeresy:

What you express is exactly the type of shortsightedness that's gotten us into this mess in the first place. Sooner or later you just won't be able to work for free or next to nothing, your business model is simply unsustainable. Your reasoning is based on the assumption that your strategy will lead you to a level where you will eventually be able to command a high fee...but what if your assumptions are wrong? What if after "paying your dues" for well over a decade you're still only being offered low paying gigs? What if (in no small part due to your strategy) even composers with a large amount of credits are not able to command a fee that allows them to sustain a basic family?

The "survival of the fittest" scenario that you paint has the word "survival" in it...but fewer and fewer of us are surviving. This is indeed a dog eat dog scenario where eventually the remaining dog starves to death because he's got no one left to eat.

I find your point of view naive and short sighted, and unfortunately only too common among young composers. Do you think that a young manager, or a young engineer or a young accountant reasons the same way as you do when they come out of school?


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## john rodriguez (Dec 8, 2009)

theheresy @ Tue Dec 08 said:


> I will GLADLY take a FREE feature film just to have the credit on my resumé and exposure etc so in an age where the directors barely even care about the music anymore and when the musicality and ability to even understand music is at an all time low in hollywood, this would be a hugely great thing for me. I would get the jobs over all the guys pricing themselves out even though I'd do it for free or for pennies. I'm lucky to have recently got a gig for a couple grand $ but the truth that the film makers don't know is that I would have gladly done it for free if they asked. It's sad but it's dog eat dog, survival of the fittest out there. A guy like me with not that much credits and a lousy resumé doesn't have the luxury of sitting back and being choosy, "Oh they're not paying enough humphh! Screw them I'll get another gig." Heck no I'll do most decent gigs for absolute FREE just for the exposure etc and I know for a fact so will all of my peers and every composer I know closely at MY level...so by default that makes that unionization concept sort of flawed.



When I moved to LA a few years ago I went against the advice of everyone of my teachers at Berklee and adopted the same mentality and I didn't turn ANYTHING down for any reason. After a few years of piling up worthless credits, working for guys who weren't "comfortable" signing contracts, getting stiffed, having my music ripped off, being expected to produce unlimited amounts of music (0$ composers fee X any amount of music still = 0$), working for guys who ignore their own deadlines but expect me to stay up 3 days straight to hit mine, producing large amounts of music on spec only to later find out that the "project" had been dead for a month, and on and on and on...I finally realized that not only was I not doing myself any favors but I was also contributing to the climate we unfortunately have in the industry now.

That's not to say that every project that I worked on for free or on spec was a negative experience, I worked on some good projects, learned a lot and met some good people, many of which contacted me about working on their next projects...for free.

I know that it's tough and the idea of credits and exposure and all that can be very enticing but in my experience it's fool's gold. Any prospective client that you have will probably be more impressed by the one score that you produced for a highly visible work (highly does not include a film festival you've never heard of or DVD release in a country who's name you can't spell) than a hundred scores that you produced for invisible ones. In and of themselves, all of the credits in the world for projects that no one's heard of aren't going to do very much to legitimize you in the eyes of any potential clients.

If you happen to find a great project with real distribution potential and a director or producer with a lot of professional upward mobility that values your work but unfortunately just doesn't have the budget for music, then by all means take it, but honestly at any given time there's maybe a dozen of those in the whole world. If you're not lucky enough to run into one of them, than in the meantime all of the more modest projects that many composer's rely on will have the benefit of a free score from all of the other hustling composer's practice swings.

I'm really not trying to single you out theheresy, like I said, I had the same mentality when I first moved out here. I'm just saying that I have yet to hear of any successful composer saying "Thank God I didn't turn that job just because they couldn't pay me".


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## john rodriguez (Dec 8, 2009)

midphase @ Tue Dec 08 said:


> Do you think that a young manager, or a young engineer or a young accountant reasons the same way as you do when they come out of school?



Exactly. Would you see a doctor who was just trying to build up his patient list? Hire a contractor who offered to do your bathroom for free hoping you'd hire him for your kitchen in two years? Go to a mechanic who is just looking for some under the hood experience? Of course not. You value your health, home and car at least as much as they value their paychecks. Directors and producers simply don't value music as much as they did 20 years ago, with a net cost of $0 it's no wonder.


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## theheresy (Dec 8, 2009)

john rodriguez @ Tue Dec 08 said:


> midphase @ Tue Dec 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think that a young manager, or a young engineer or a young accountant reasons the same way as you do when they come out of school?
> ...



Doctors and mechanics are two of the most sought after current fields on EARTH PERIOD with some of the best job outlooks. Every place needs mechanics and doctors. Same goes for engineers. That's why that example is such a poor one. Composers are at complete opposite end of the spectrum, the market is over saturated and no one wants new/more composers. Thus, doctors/engineers etc don't NEED to do those desperate tactics because they have good job security right off the bat out of school whereas with composers it's the complete opposite. So, like I said, poor analogy.


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## john rodriguez (Dec 8, 2009)

theheresy,

For the record I graduated in 02 so I may not be as dinosaured as you think. And all composer community blissful solidarity do unto others dogoodedness aside, let me put this another way:

It is not sour grapes opinion but an economic eventuality that YOU today WILL be putting YOU years from now out of business.

If you're proposed business model continues, it's greatest success will be creating 1 Hans Zimmer at the expense of putting 1000 Joe indie film-tv show-commercials out of business. I've never heard any of your music but even it's earth shatteringly fantastic, there are still MANY stars that need to align to ascend to the ranks of the A-list Hollywood composers. If for whatever reason you never occupy that rarified air than composing for you will be a wonderfully fulfilling hobby.

Don't misunderstand, none of the vets on this board or any other are worried about competing with you for those jobs on craigslist, they're all yours. What they're concerned about is the fact that the decisions that younger composers make today have an enormous affect on the business climate they are operating in now AND more importantly the one that you will be in years from now.

In my younger days I answered those craigslist ads and every director sounded like Troy Duffy. "This films revolutionary, made by passionate people, slated for this and that release, blah blah blah". Here's the pitch you'll never see:

Inexperienced, unproven director with poorly written and produced, visionless film that stands little chance at even a 10 AM screening at the 2nd annual Carson City Film Festival seeks composer to take for granted, replace, rehire (only after certain concessions), infringe on various copyrights, provide light driving duties and occasional life coaching in exchange for possible IMDB listing and an ulcer. Serious inquiries only.

If you happen to find one of the diamonds in the rough and you think that the experience will be beneficial, then by all means do it, just remember that experience is the ONLY thing that most of these films have to offer.


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## Lex (Dec 8, 2009)

theheresy @ Wed Dec 09 said:


> It's funny, perspective can be such a darned thing.
> 
> See from your perspective I'm naive and hurting the industry by fighting for my survival, but from MY perspective you're a naive 'dinosaur' from a different generation who knows nothing about today's climate in the underbelly of the compositional freelance world. I don't actually mean that as an insult, I'm just saying in general what the views of each generation is.
> You see the climate was far different way back when, when a lot of you guys started out, even if it was in the 90's as I know you did midphase. I know this because I did my research, I read hundreds of interviews, etc, etc, about guys who broke into the industry in the 90's and let me tell you, some of you guys can't even IMAGINE what the current culture of over-saturation is like. I.E. supply outstripping demand to such an exponential extreme that the entire system is thrown into a flux, we're just about at the damned singularity here, relativistic quantum brick wall!
> I email jobs from craigslist or other venues and producers of even the most utterly trivial worthless garbage indie/student "short" or videogame get back to me 2-3 weeks later and expound upon how they had to sift through literally dozens if not hundreds of composer submissions FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD. Yes, even here in NEW JERSEY/NEW YORK classifieds we are getting hundreds of submissions from India/Europe/wherever else for things as trivial as first year student films, it makes getting even the TINIEST insignificant credit a huge herculean task. And you tell me I should sit back and not disrespect the industry and your "families" that you have to feed? LOL! I have no choice but to literally fight tooth and claw and jump through hoops for FREE to get these jobs and I don't care what any of you guys sitting on your lofty perch in hollywood have to say about that. If there was a movie advertised right here right now in this very forum I would be the first to message them and offer to do it free to deliberately undercut you all! That's how it works boys!!! That's how you get the job and the credit, don't like it? Can't handle it? Then this business ain't for you! I suggest switching careers. No but seriously, you have to really put yourself in a guy like mine's shoes and feel out the gestalt of the current culture to see where I'm coming from...these ain't the 90's boys...now every single Jack, Jill, and Ted have a cheap full blown professional collection of sound libraries, not consumer, not even "pro-sumer" like other industries but even the 17 year old kid down the street has the same exact library be it VSL, LASS, etc that Hans Zimmer, John Debney, et all are using in their very own studios and so this creates an insane influx and over saturation. It's just the natural process and evolution, nothing anyone of us can do about it.



Cool link Choco...

theheresy:

Thank you for talking openly about this, in my mind you definitely represent the vast majority of up and coming "composers". And as few people pointed out you are shooting your self and everyone else in the foot. In my mind this started happening ummmmm probably 5-6 years ago, and now we all feel the consequences.

Midphase pretty much nailed it. 

I would add just another point of view. I have been accused many times in the past that Im an horrible elitist, and you know what maybe I am, and I wish many other composers, producers and directors were too today. 

I listened to your stuff on this forum theheresy, and while I truly like your composing, in my opinion with your current production/mixing/mock skills you shouldn't even think about applying to ANY job, not until you get better at it. And directors or producers are those who should be telling you this. But they don't...why?

Well, they don't because even like this your stuff sounds 100 times better then huge number of "composers" who also apply for same gigs these days. And guess what they also charge 0$. And guess what, most of the "directors" listening to your stuff have no clue about music or art in general, but hey they have a nice little 300$ HD cam, so they can start an "indie" production.

And you all do it to get "experience"? Experience in what exactly? Scoring crap and working with untalented amateurs? What are you gonna use that experience for, except for scoring more crap and meeting more untalented amateurs?

There is a big difference between keeping your fee low while you r "trying to get there", and charging 0$. You say "put yourself in my shoes", well dude we all were in those shoes and it wasn't that different 8-9 years ago. Whats different is that back then you had to really focking work hard to get something that sounds decent, and that most people I know didn't work for free...they worked for low fees yes, but never for free...if nobody wants to pay its better to work on your skills.

In other words, with the advancement of tools in last 7-8 years the standards went down, way down. Back then it was hard to be even mediocre, now all you need is 200-300$, a PC and access to craigslist, and what do you know...you are immediately a "struggling composer trying to get there" who is trying to get a gig from a the same "struggling director trying to make it"!!...i guess all is well with the World...


aLex

www.aleksandardimitrijevic.com


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## midphase (Dec 8, 2009)

"And you tell me I should sit back and not disrespect the industry and your "families" that you have to feed? LOL! I have no choice but to literally fight tooth and claw and jump through hoops for FREE to get these jobs and I don't care what any of you guys sitting on your lofty perch in hollywood have to say about that. "


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## lux (Dec 9, 2009)

although i think there's some logic in what theheresy says.

If he gives up the resident and already working guys will be the only ones to raise even the most ridicolous budget. 

Reasons are many, probably first being the fact that you guys can handle a mass of work the once it was impossible to carry, thanks to samples and such. No collaborations involved, no third parties no work spread. Just load stuff in your room, bounce and send, then get at the phone to raise the next one.

I think some honesty is due from every part in the discussion. theheresy's reasonement has of course faults, and what Kays says about the possible scenarios is plausible. 

...but you cant blame guys from depressed areas or very young guys who just try to pursuit an artistic love for takin away the pie or messin up the market. 

American show business has pratically at least the 80% of all markets worlwide. What do you pretend us to do? to kill ourselves for our local breadcrumbs, or to get the internet boat and try to kick your asses?

everything has an own point of view.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 9, 2009)

I am going to break my self-imposed no post rule because this is important.

There are gigs, and then there are gigs. If you do a score for a student film at USC or a film that was shot for $50,000 with a high def camera for free to get some experience and a credit, that is one thing. 

If you do a score for a decently budgeted film that could in fact have some, if limited, commercial success, for a director/producer who is simply callously taking advantage of the fact that he can get someone for free who will do an OK job rather than spend some dough for one that can prove his worth, then you are damaging yourself AND the rest of us, and frankly, your decision is bordering on immorality IMHO. And just as a practical matter, if you charge not a low fee but no fee, you are telling the person who hires you "you need not attribute any value to me as I am not attaching any to myself."

The union is a long overdue necessity.


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## theheresy (Dec 9, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Wed Dec 09 said:


> I am going to break my self-imposed no post rule because this is important.
> 
> There are gigs, and then there are gigs. If you do a score for a student film at USC or a film that was shot for $50,000 with a high def camera for free to get some experience and a credit, that is one thing.
> 
> ...



This is true and even I agree with that. I think some of you guys went a tad overboard or just misinterpreted the LEVEL which I am talking about. I'm not saying I would do free full budget hollywood productions, that's ridiculous..in fact that would never even happen. I've never heard of a top production making a composer do something for free, they might pay so low that it might seem free but it would never be free so that's mostly an unrealistic idea out of the realm of possibility. What I'm talking about is specifically sort of what ashermusic just described, i.e. lower budget films, student films, etc, etc. To charge money to do student films just to build a few credits (keep in mind many of these films are 5 to 10 minute shorts that take only a day or two to score) is stupid. Well it's not stupid if the 'student' is willing to pay, but what I mean is to take an elitist stance and say "Oh you're not paying? Screw you then I'll find another." is generally stupid if you ask me. 

As for some of you harping on how I'm "hurting my future" metaphysical self and whatnot. That's mostly all mallarky. Guess what, my "business model" has worked thus far and will continue to work. I started out with nothing, no training (I'm self taught), no school or lessons (never graduated with any music degree or any degree period for that matter), just hard work and constant toiling on trying to learn new knowledge like at this site, etc, etc. And guess what? I started out by trawling all over the internet looking for cheap crappy gigs and have elevated myself to a decent level where I recently got hired for my first (low budget) feature film making several THOUSAND dollars. So, if you need to reconcile my tactics to YOUR own mind by thinking it's hurting me or that I'll never make it that's fine, whatever helps YOU sleep better at night and makes you feel better, but in REALITY where I live you're only deluding yourselves and I'm doing just fine, my business model is succeeding and will continue to succeed. Once I reach a certain level then sure I'll have the luxury just like the rest of you "big boys" to refuse jobs based on payment and no longer accept cheap or free gigs, but I'm not at that level yet so until I get there (and I will get there by getting more decent credits) I will continue to do whatever is necessary and whatever I have to do to get gigs and credits even if that means undercutting all of you to win a job. If you don't like the brutal honesty then go back to the imaginary world where you sleep better at night because "the likes of me all fail horribly and die alone poor and miserable in the future because we sacrificed our future by using immoral tactics" LOL!!! Dream on, this is the ONLY way to make it in this industry for a guy like me and the PROOF of that is this: not a single one of you detractors have yet specified a solution/alternative to what I should be doing. You only lazily condemn it from your lofty hollywood perches yet can't figure out what other possible alternative way there is to make it into the industry for someone in similar circumstances to myself. So, don't worry, you guys keep doing what you're doing and I'll keep doing what I'm doing and I'll see you there at the top in a couple years. o-[][]-o o-[][]-o o-[][]-o o-[][]-o o-[][]-o


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## theheresy (Dec 9, 2009)

One thing I do wholeheartedly agree on is that the system is due for a correction, that it NEEDS a correction. Just like the recent financial crisis had many banks failing, it is a natural PURGE that is REQUIRED and needed and is healthy for the industry and everyone involved (except those that get purged I guess, LOL!). 
So you see, many of you who have actual talent shouldn't be worried, the purge will occur and all the posers will fall by the way side. Maybe I'll be one of them according to some of you, I beg to differ but this thread ain't about me, I'm just taking the heat as a lone voiced 'representative' of an entire generation, of a business model of which I wasn't the first and won't be the last practitioner. But mark my words the system will correct itself and many of the wannabes will fall by the wayside because by natural law such a system of inordinate supply over miniscule demand simply cannot sustain itself for long. I mean in some senses perhaps the "Great Purge" is already occurring. Large momentous shifts are hard to discern, exactly when and where they occur but I know many are already feeling the crunch. Many kids with no knowledge, skill, or talent whatsoever who used daddy's credit card to buy LASS are already falling by the wayside wondering why they aren't landing full blown hollywood gigs, "But I don't get it, my orchestral power chords sound so real! Why isn't Michael Bay calling??" etc, etc..
So like I said if anything you guys should be happy that this singularity will separate the wheat from the chaffe.


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## midphase (Dec 9, 2009)

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## theheresy (Dec 9, 2009)

midphase @ Wed Dec 09 said:


> http://maps.google.com/maps?client=safari&rls=en&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=hollywood+perch&fb=1&gl=us&hq=perch&hnear=hollywood&view=text&ei=CtwfS66JA43WsQOxrfH0CQ&sa=X&oi=local_group&ct=more-results&resnum=1&ved=0CA0QtQMwAA



LOL!!!

That was pretty funny.

But seriously, I know exactly what you're saying and believe me I know both sides of the equation, i.e. me AND you and your situation. The reason is again, I did my homework and research. I've networked and talked to a dozen actual film composers in hollywood, not the top guys though I've talked to them too, the David Newmans, John Ottmans, John Debney's, etc, they are all very responsive if you message them on facebook and such. But no, I'm talking about the lower echelon guys who DO make feature Hollywood films and probably make $10-30k per film. And even THESE guys are going broke and are looking for alternative means of income as you've said. I don't want to name names, but I know one in particular who did many decent sized hollywood films with big name actors albeit in lower end productions, and he is living month to month paycheck to paycheck barely surviving, i.e. minimum wage EQUIVALENT. Sure he might get 20-30k for a film but that big film comes only once or twice a year if he's lucky so he's really making the equivalent of what a pizza delivery guy might make in the same year. 
And yes believe me... all these guys say the same exact thing, just quit, give up, it's way too difficult to break into this over saturated industry and I know all this already but I have no choice but to ply ahead because music is my one and only passion and I know I can be one of the few that makes it to the top, I have supreme confidence in myself that I suppose only a few more wasted years can erode, but until then I'll keep plying ahead. :mrgreen: 

Like I said in my previous post, it's due for a major correction and the weaker links fall by the wayside and only the strong (and lucky) are left standing. What can we do about it other than to just keep plying forward and hope we're one of the select few lucky ones?


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## theheresy (Dec 9, 2009)

Lex @ Tue Dec 08 said:


> theheresy:
> 
> Thank you for talking openly about this, in my mind you definitely represent the vast majority of up and coming "composers". And as few people pointed out you are shooting your self and everyone else in the foot. In my mind this started happening ummmmm probably 5-6 years ago, and now we all feel the consequences.
> 
> ...



Alex, 
it's funny but what you said is pretty much accurate and true. Yes my MIXES sound like pure shite but the difference is that I actually have a good ear so that I DO recognize this, I just haven't tinkered out all the ways how to improve them to "broadcast quality levels" just yet, but I'm learning a lot from places like this site and guys like you so I'm already improving on the mix part exponentially. For example, listen to the latest one I posted, it's actually pretty damn good (at least compared to the first one I posted which is probably the one you heard). 
And the part I find hilarious is that you're absolutely right about the following things

1. WE all know that a certain mix like the first one I posted sounds like pure sheight, but the directors, at least at this level have such absurdly bad ears that they can't even tell the difference. They love the stuff and want more of it. 

2. You're right, as bad as you might have thought my first mix was, 90% of guys out there are ten times worse. I at least make the effort to improve and each mix improves over the last, and I at least make the SACRIFICE of purchasing thousands of dollars worth of all the top gear. But 90% of the guys bewailing the situation out there aren't even up to MY level let alone any of you guys' levels. I know this for a fact from experience. How you ask? Well, I'll give you one example. On my recent film gig, the producers let me hear some of the other examples/auditions/pitches from other composers that applied for the gig (some of them were from overseas, and all over the place as I've mentioned previously) and the stuff I heard was just brutal. Some of the worst ever. Poor mixes. People using the sound libraries that come with Cubase/Logic/Whatever or GPO etc. 


And yes, in many ways standards have went down over the years with the introduction of all this cheap and accessible gear but you don't necessarily have to think of it that way. One way to think of it is that a new sub-market has opened up. You see not just music production software but also film software and cameras and such are in the same boat where people can make CGI in their basement now that wasn't possible at high end studios in the 1970's. So if anything it's just a whole new lower tier of market that some of you guys shouldn't necessarily deride but should also not be worried about because if I'm a "talentless amateur" competing with other talentless amateurs for jobs made BY talentless amateur directors then you're right, what are YOU all worried about since we're in two completely different market brackets.


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## midphase (Dec 9, 2009)

"I have no choice but to ply ahead because music is my one and only passion and I know I can be one of the few that makes it to the top, I have supreme confidence in myself that I suppose only a few more wasted years can erode, but until then I'll keep plying ahead."


TheHeresy, I don't want to seem like I'm picking on you, but you bring up so many "juicy" things that I think you're very representative of the larger segment of young composers.

I understand your passion, I was there too and am there right now. However if someone had explained to me the parameters about 20 years ago, I might have made an educated decision vs. going in with assumptions which proved incorrect.

Your confidence and general attitude is only shared by 99.999% of your fellow young composers. Have you ever met anyone who didn't think they could make it all the way to the top? Better yet, do you ever watch American Idol? Do you think that the vast majority of those who audition don't think they'll make it all the way to #1? As an audience, we all watch in stupor wondering how someone can be so clueless about themselves and about the industry....yet there it is, again and again, season after season...by the thousands.

While I don't dispute your passion, I dispute your common sense. Please don't take this rudely, I wish someone would have been this honest with me (then again, as you pointed out times were different in the 90's).

I honestly believe that trying to make a living as a "new" film or TV composer in 2009 sucks. Music libraries are overwhelmed and the majority doesn't pay up front anymore, the established composers are holding on tooth and nail and are more suspicious than ever about interns, less and less TV shows are using original music, less and less mid-level films ($10-20mil range) are being produced leaving an increasingly widening gap between huge budgets and no budget films. Schools are no longer able to help with any sort of placement because they're overwhelmed as well.

It's a bleak picture no matter how you slice it. For some of us who are able to continue to survive (not thrive...just survive) in this environment it's a huge blessing...but most of the working composers are in their 40's and older and have nurtured relationships with their clientele for over a decade.

Once again I'm not discouraging you from being creative and from working on the occasional student/no budget indie. But to base your financial well being for the rest of your life on such an eroded and malfunctioning business environment is as naive and irresponsible as if you were betting your entire livelihood on winning the lottery.

I think this concludes all that I have to say on the subject, I stated my case and I think you've been amply warned about the heartaches and financial woes that you're setting yourself up for. Of course, you must do as you feel you have to, but at least you'll do so at your own peril and with the knowledge of what you're getting yourself into.


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## theheresy (Dec 9, 2009)

midphase @ Wed Dec 09 said:


> "I have no choice but to ply ahead because music is my one and only passion and I know I can be one of the few that makes it to the top, I have supreme confidence in myself that I suppose only a few more wasted years can erode, but until then I'll keep plying ahead."
> 
> 
> TheHeresy, I don't want to seem like I'm picking on you, but you bring up so many "juicy" things that I think you're very representative of the larger segment of young composers.
> ...



...so..with that said, where do I submit my application to intern at your studio?

:lol: o-[][]-o


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## lux (Dec 9, 2009)

rock and roll is dead


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## germancomponist (Dec 9, 2009)

And I can not say it often enough: Our money based system will kill all. So sadly but true!


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## lux (Dec 9, 2009)

midphase @ Wed Dec 09 said:


> "American show business has pratically at least the 80% of all markets worlwide. What do you pretend us to do? to kill ourselves for our local breadcrumbs, or to get the internet boat and try to kick your asses"
> 
> Luca,
> 
> ...



nono, i know your position and ideas, we talked about that. 

i'll be honest with you, i see your point. 

I just think somehow that every composer that earns just 100 dollars out of something musical could try to communicate a sense of joy and satisfaction to others as he/she achieved something, even pretty small. A change of perspective sometimes helps. So, if youre willing to help people trying to make their own in the music, why dont just try to communicate some sense of fun as youre probably in better shape than others?


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## SvK (Dec 10, 2009)

I think much of this has to do with the death of harmony and the rise of "tones / drones."



SvK


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## autopilot (Dec 10, 2009)

Another take...

In my mind this is all tied up with all of the enormous changes going on everywhere across the entire media industry. 

What's changed?

Equipment's cheaper lowering the entry price to provide services. From music to cameras to macs you can make a film or a TV series for nothing now.

Distribution is cheap to free - you don't need a TV channel to get content out there. This is true for music as well as TV and film now.

Software is piratable - so you can get the sounds for free, the editing software for free, the grading software for free. People do - but don't know what to do with the tools they've got.

Cable and internet is requiring huge amounts of content, but most of it is niche based and therefore can't afford to pay for excellence. 

Educational opportunities are greatly expanded - every year our universities and private colleges are spewing more and more graduates - composers - directors - actors!!! - editors - sound engineers with a sense of entitlement into our industry. This opportunity is now for not just for those that got into an elite institution, but also for those that got in with mum or dads credit card. 

Therefore academic qualifications mean nothing. I've done two creative degrees and the difference between myself and others who did the same degree is embarassingly large. The filpside of that is that I'm working in music and plenty I went to Uni with are waiting tables or teaching.

So on one hand there's massive, massive amounts of content that requires people to work on it, but the same number of eyeballs to watch it meaning less and less people and therefore less and less money. 

So the gear and everything else has meant this mass democratisation of "art" but most of it is unwatchable. Some will take this as an opportunity but the fact is we have the same number of people that can do it well as we always have.

So where does it leave the professionals? 

Where it always did. 

There's still mass audience content and will continue to be. And it will be made by the people that deserve those opportunities. The reality is that the industry itself is still rewarding the very best and most committed. Much better and more realistically than our academic institutions are. 

It's rewarding those that are working and establishing relationships with the best and most professional people in their industry. Delivering the best fitting and commissioned content they can on time and on budget even when the budgets are dropping - which is as it should be because the tools are cheaper.

Rising up taking opportunities as they present themselves, and ignoring those that have nothing in it for them.

As I see the industry from Australia, there are the same number of pros now as there have always been - probably more. But because it's cheaper and easier for us to make content we will be working faster and cheaper and smarter most of the time and therefore (in the "fast, cheap, and good" impossible trinity of professionalism) standards drop - unless you're great with your tools which is actually what our job is.

So I don't see the end of the world in all of this - there is still going to be an industry that needs great professional reliable people doing work. Everyone needs to work smarter and faster and cheaper across the whole industry, but our cheaper tools allow us to. 

If you are prepared to spend your 20s and 30s building relationships and content and skills so that you can nail anything quickly and cheaply you will have a career. If it's too hard to do that for ten years then there are plenty of other industries that will take you in , and good luck with that!

In that 10 years will you do crap student films that can't be saved by any score? Sure will! But you'll learn from it. Is your music crap for those first years - Sure is! But you'll try to do better next time won't you. Will you get exploited by people? Sure will, but you can exploit those opportunites too! Are you going to keep going - up to you...

You don't get the best gigs first year out of uni. Even tenth year out of uni. But I believe if you have the talent and determination and nail the last gig you did, are pleasant and friendly to everyone you will get work from it, and then gigs become gigs become gigs and before you know it you have a mortgage just like everyone else that works hard.

And that's how it's always been.


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## clarkcontrol (Dec 10, 2009)

Another take:

The industry will never be the same. It is always evolving.

Don't expect to get any gigs with the establishment. James Cameron will never hire you. That generation has passed, along with the money that goes with it. Don't expect to work in TV either. You notice how many big screen actors are going into TV? It's trickle down, folks, not trickle up.

So those of you that have developed client relationships, bravo. This is the only constant. 

But even after each generation "passes," so to speak, there is no industry left to allow for the next wave. From the studio system in Hollywood's golden years, the studio revolution in the eighties (thanks to Vangelis/MIDI), the computer studio in the nineties, we always look back wishing...

So go find the internet version of the next Tim Burton, all you Danny Elfmans. And keep your integrity, if at all possible.

Because it will never be the same.

Clark


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## germancomponist (Dec 10, 2009)

SvK @ Thu Dec 10 said:


> I think much of this has to do with the death of harmony and the rise of "tones / drones."
> SvK



And so maybe with the people dementia?

In 5 years the music will have only a big bass-drum and some synth patches, of course, only in a single key. ... .

In Germany we say: Oops, that RTL and SAT watching people, they are so stupid with these TV channels.

La lalla, la lö... o-[][]-o


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## midphase (Dec 11, 2009)

There you go folks....half full or half empty...you decide:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-c ... 5266.story


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## JohnG (Dec 11, 2009)

SvK @ 10th December 2009 said:


> I think much of this has to do with the death of harmony and the rise of "tones / drones."



Exactly. If the producer thinks, "my kid could do that," we are doomed.

Sometimes we are forced by deadlines or director's choice to write drones 'n' loops, but every time we do it, whether or not it's musically valid, we train our fellow creative people to think that anybody can write movie music.


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## lux (Dec 11, 2009)

wise words John, as usual


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## Guru007 (Dec 11, 2009)

JohnG @ Fri Dec 11 said:


> Exactly. If the producer thinks, "my kid could do that," we are doomed.


Sorry for the following rambling post - it's my first.

To wit, most producers and directors (who I've worked with or know socially) already feel this way. They always have. And not just about composers, either. 
They know there's always someone younger, better looking, cheaper, faster, more gifted, or harder working coming out of film, music or drama school. And yet, most of these kids will be passed over. 

If their project has promise (a major point - and they won't cue you in on this), they will seek and hire a seasoned or vetted pro over a cheaper rookie. They are not paying for better film music. They're paying for a better solution to their problem: finishing their film on budget, on time, and that is in lock-step with their director/studio's vision for the film (whether that happens to be a vision of style or quality level).

They are paying for insurance that the job will get done with a minimum of issues and a wealth of practical solutions (ability to work as a team, deliver on time, roll with the punches, etc). 

Every rookie director I've worked with has told me they will never go back (on a worthwhile project, that is) to working with someone without the requisite level of experience. The actual music had little to do with it - they were mostly done in by the level of uncertainty and headaches of working with someone so new. 

So, yeah, we'll lose the tidalwave of new micro and small scale projects to the "kids". Most of these projects won't go anywhere, so we're not losing a valuable credit. But a lot of us took on these projects during dry periods for the bread. 
That safety net has been torn open by the kids. 
But at the end of the day, I wouldn't want to be doing this if all I had to
work on was these safety net projects.

my 2 cents.
guru007


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## _taylor (Dec 11, 2009)

autopilot @ Thu Dec 10 said:


> Another take...
> 
> In my mind this is all tied up with all of the enormous changes going on everywhere across the entire media industry.
> 
> ...



Great post. Thanks.


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## JohnG (Dec 11, 2009)

My perception, and I believe the data, don't support a characterisation of this being confined to an beginner-level or bottom-feeder problem.

Leaving aside the absolute top of the food chain, the impact of dumbing down music has affected the entire market for music and film, not just marginal or entry-level work. In the US, it is no secret that rates paid to composers for TV music have plunged to 1/4 or even 1/8 of what they used to be, with far more music expected.

A lot of the music I hear on TV sounds as though the composers have adopted all the tried-and-true strategies to deliver an impossibly large amount of music in a very short time. That means drones and it means loops and "cool sounds." Not all of it, but plenty. And of course a lot (a strong majority?) of TV music is written by teams now.

I know that delivery times have halved and the amount of music has practically doubled, so I understand why people use minimal approaches -- I am not condemning it. It's a vicious cycle that has metastasised into far more areas than micro-budget projects alone.


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## _taylor (Dec 11, 2009)

JohnG @ Fri Dec 11 said:


> My perception, and I believe the data, don't support a characterisation of this being confined to an beginner-level or bottom-feeder problem.
> 
> Leaving aside the absolute top of the food chain, the impact of dumbing down music has affected the entire market for music and film, not just marginal or entry-level work. In the US, it is no secret that rates paid to composers for TV music have plunged to 1/4 or even 1/8 of what they used to be, with far more music expected.
> 
> ...



I agree to a certain extent. Listening to the latest scorecast , the guy behind the Union idea states that composers are making 14% of what they used to 40? years ago. That's a scary thought. 

But on the topic of drones and loops and 'cool sounds', I would find more merit if they actually constructed them themselves. 

Listen to John Powell's 'United 93' score. Wonderfully minimal. Esentially drums and drones.


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## clarkcontrol (Dec 11, 2009)

JohnG @ Fri Dec 11 said:


> If the producer thinks, "my kid could do that," we are doomed.



John Powell might do it great, and simple might not mean easy. But try telling a director/producer that a one-note score is worth 20,000 US. Especially if you're not established like Powell, et al.

My thoughts are that this artistic entropy is already happening. That sentiment is implied in what I meant by "things will never be the same."

Clark


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## _taylor (Dec 11, 2009)

clarkcontrol @ Fri Dec 11 said:


> JohnG @ Fri Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > If the producer thinks, "my kid could do that," we are doomed.
> ...




I would think that the directer would tell you want they want. 


Artistic entropy...I think its a great time for film music. Variety? Its all out there from orchestral , electronic to hybrid. From minimal to ashit pile of notes, its all out there. 

I am consistently inspired by new scores. 2 recent, Pandorum and Law Abiding Citizen , totally opposites but equally as powerful. I love it.


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## lux (Dec 11, 2009)

i dont believe its a matter of media used but of general approach.

being minimalist with something in mind is one thing, being minimalist with just a lazy follower approach is different, pretty different.

While having a certain repulsive approach to boring and cliched rythmic messedup bits+drone kind of works, i for one liked really a lot works like "Deja vu" by Gregson Williams or "Sunshine" by Joh Muprhy, just to name a couple, that do use the exact mix all people talk and rave about but to produce a musical engaging work greatly working to screen. 

Its the pressed keys, not the keyboard


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## theheresy (Dec 11, 2009)

JohnG @ Fri Dec 11 said:


> My perception, and I believe the data, don't support a characterisation of this being confined to an beginner-level or bottom-feeder problem.
> 
> Leaving aside the absolute top of the food chain, the impact of dumbing down music has affected the entire market for music and film, not just marginal or entry-level work. In the US, it is no secret that rates paid to composers for TV music have plunged to 1/4 or even 1/8 of what they used to be, with far more music expected.
> 
> ...



Yup this is all true. I've recently spoken to a top tier hollywood composer who shall remain anonymous who himself told me that fees even for the high level top tier guys have plunged to abysmal levels so that even composers at the very top are having a hard time paying the mortgages for expensive homes and such that they purchased when 'times were better' so to speak. It's a bleak outlook indeed for guys just getting into the industry right now like myself. 
And yes you're right about the 'teams' of composers, just look at recent TV Music Emmy win for wonder pets..it was like a team of like 10 composers if not more that won it for that show.


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## clarkcontrol (Dec 11, 2009)

_taylor @ Fri Dec 11 said:


> I think its a great time for film music. Variety? Its all out there from orchestral , electronic to hybrid. From minimal to ashit pile of notes, its all out there.



Very very true. I'm just saying "in general," as many here are writing.

Clark


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## Dave Connor (Dec 11, 2009)

I wonder if there is a real sea change in film music or if the eclecticism currently found in so many arts will be the norm for the foreseeable future. By that I mean at some point there was the end of the operatic tuneful scores of Steiner and Korngold which really never did return (even considering John Willams and Howard Shore's operatic scores.) So are we faced with certain things (styles, ensembles, etc.) _ending_ for all practical purposes or will we continue to see a wide variety depending on the filmmakers sensibility. Gone is the small ensemble found in 60's TV which often used a very sophisticated harmonic language even including atonal writing. So things do in fact go away forever it seems.

Maybe the traditional orchestral score is now the exception rather than the rule and even then won't be found without electronic elements. I think (and hope) that isn't the case and can't help but think that animation will keep it flourishing well into the future.


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## Guru007 (Dec 12, 2009)

midphase @ Sat Dec 12 said:


> So really no thoughts on the Paramount jumping into the microbudget fray?
> http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-c ... 5266.story



The paramount venture makes me think of my present situation:
I'm in the studio right now finishing a score for a fairly big-time director's first micro-scale project. 

It's based on a film that was originally greenlit by a studio but got sidelined 
several times thanks to corporate mergers and executive shifts. 

So rather than wait and wait for more excuses or delays, she relented and took the producer's offer to shoot a vignette of the first act over a few days for under $10K. This proof of concept has convinced she can shoot the whole thing for $100K - $250K if Plan A Funding falls through. 

The Paramount initiative sounds like it might dovetail nicely for filmmakers in the same boat who can no longer quickly or easily raise the $5M-$10M they have been used to raising. So when they can't, they sit on the sidelines, direct TV shows, or churn out screenplays that ultimately go nowhere but earn them some development money. 
Of course, they're afraid of shooting micro-scale stuff because a) there's no money b) they're spoiled and lazy, as a result of the big studio machine that has employed them, c) given all the new tech involved they don't know how to shoot micro d) if they actually do a good job, they lower the bar and the studio will balk at spending more money. 

Of course, this director has another $10M+ film planned for next year, but it's foreign money for an across the border shoot. Since every deal is getting downsized or delayed, or both, she may have no choice but to shoot something on her own dime. 

It's a new day, indeed. 

So enough frivolity and back to work 

guru007


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## Markus S (Dec 14, 2009)

theheresy @ Tue Dec 08 said:


> exactly..that's why I'm assuming such a union would never work. At MY level where I'm not even semi-professional yet let alone professional like some of you guys or guys in hollywood etc, I will GLADLY take a FREE feature film just to have the credit on my resumé and exposure etc so in an age where the directors barely even care about the music anymore and when the musicality and ability to even understand music is at an all time low in hollywood, this would be a hugely great thing for me. I would get the jobs over all the guys pricing themselves out even though I'd do it for free or for pennies. I'm lucky to have recently got a gig for a couple grand $ but the truth that the film makers don't know is that I would have gladly done it for free if they asked. It's sad but it's dog eat dog, survival of the fittest out there. A guy like me with not that much credits and a lousy resumé doesn't have the luxury of sitting back and being choosy, "Oh they're not paying enough humphh! Screw them I'll get another gig." Heck no I'll do most decent gigs for absolute FREE just for the exposure etc and I know for a fact so will all of my peers and every composer I know closely at MY level...so by default that makes that unionization concept sort of flawed.



Hello,

Thank you for this statement, it shows actually courage to write those things down in a professional composer forum, so honesty is welcome, because it allows us to discuss such a topic. Please don't be offended if I am contradicting you.

The problem with your thinking is (I really mean this thinking in general), the question why you would work for free. To get the credits? OK, why would you need the credits? To get a better job? What for? To be able to quit your day job and become a full time composer? Well, if this is the aim, then you are actually trying to get a well paid job like everybody else here.  A secure income to be able to be creative, without having to worry about financial aspects.

So your point seems to be : To *start out*, I will accept anything to get experience and credits, but *then* I want to get payed decently. OK, this has been discussed many times : Is it good or not to work for free in the beginning (it's really another topic).

Maybe I got that wrong and you really don't want to get payed, you just want to work. Do you really think you can survive in this economy, with having a job in addition to your composer work? Your rent, your electricity bill, your equipment (thousands of dollars), who will pay for this? If you work 8 hours a day in a another job, and then get home, you cannot stand up against composers who get well paid and can work 8-14 hours a day.

Then you have the client, OK, maybe I am guessing here, but you know the saying "you get what you pay for"? So, if I pay nothing, what do I get? Why would a film company trust someone, working for free at his home studio, *not* earning a living with his music? It may be psychological, but still important. They have the budget, they want high-end quality music (from full-time professionals), why would they not go to them, because you are cheaper? Sorry, most professionals I work with, know there is a price to music and music production, and are willing to pay for it.

Or are you doing it for the fun? Well, even though, I think we all love our jobs here, but everyone knows it's not all fun, it's hard work, total commitment and a lot of artistic flexibility. You will realize, even if you are not payed, that you have to put in music the vision of your "client", and not your own, so maybe, if you want to have fun, just start to write stuff for your own.

So, to close this : If you have to work for free to start out, OK, that is one thing, but please consider that your ultimate aim should be to make a decent living from your music, because how often will you work for free, once, twice? How long *can* you work for free (before finding yourself homeless in the street)? If someone cannot pay you for your work (or not enough to make a living), you have no future with him as a professional composer (not that there are no exception, of course).

You really have to think about what is best for you, because when working for free you are doing no one a favor : not yourself, not your peers, not your client.


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## billval3 (Dec 15, 2009)

And I want to politely contradict your line of thinking, Markus. All sorts of people work for free when starting out...it's not just composers. They do it precisely to get credits and hopefully some experience as well. This applies to everyone from writers to DPs to PAs, etc. Then you have directors who shoot films WITH THEIR OWN MONEY.

What are they crazy? Don't they want to get paid? Of course they do. They're trying to work their way up the ladder just like everyone else.

Having said all that, I understand that it sucks the way our art-form is being devalued by the current situation. I just don't know how much that's related to a guy like theheresy who is willing to work for free on ultra-low budget films.

This is not really directed at you personally, Markus, so I hope you don't take it personally. It's just that with everything that's going on, I get the impression that composers think they're the only ones who face the kind of problems we're facing. I don't want to belittle the problems, though.


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## midphase (Dec 15, 2009)

When a director lays out his own cash to make a film, he's in charge...he's not being hired by someone else to direct someone else's project. This can be compared to when a composer decides to compose some music (unrelated to a project) to beef up his demo reel. It's quite different when someone asks you to work for them for no money.

Also, both DP's and PA's have unions (PA's might not but I'm 99% sure they have standard agreements in place), so when a DP gets past the "learning" stage they all move up to paid work quite rapidly. I personally don't know any DP who works for free.


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## José Herring (Dec 15, 2009)

midphase @ Fri Dec 11 said:


> There you go folks....half full or half empty...you decide:
> 
> http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-c ... 5266.story



Just make sure you have a good back end deal in place if you do any of these. I know I will. What it will provide is a way for us indie composers to finally get some studio creds. I think if worked correctly doing 2 or 3 of these a year would be a good way to start crackin' that Studio Nut which at present is almost impossible to crack unless you have some big indie hit under your belt which is a bit like playing craps imo.

I'm all for these bigger companies doing lower budget works. They have the communication lines in place to make some of these big hits like Paranormal. 

I'd be all for it if the project looked good and had some good people attached to it.

best,

Jose


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## billval3 (Dec 15, 2009)

midphase @ Tue Dec 15 said:


> When a director lays out his own cash to make a film, he's in charge...he's not being hired by someone else to direct someone else's project. This can be compared to when a composer decides to compose some music (unrelated to a project) to beef up his demo reel. It's quite different when someone asks you to work for them for no money.
> 
> Also, both DP's and PA's have unions (PA's might not but I'm 99% sure they have standard agreements in place), so when a DP gets past the "learning" stage they all move up to paid work quite rapidly. I personally don't know any DP who works for free.



Good point about the director example. Nevertheless, it's true that people work for little or nothing to get themselves in the door in all sorts of jobs. Sometimes, they will use their own money (or equipment) if they need to because they want it badly enough. Actors are another good example I should have mentioned right off the bat.

I'm not talking about DPs working for free once they're established. I'm saying all kinds of people do what they have to in order to get started.


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## midphase (Dec 15, 2009)

I know....some people (DP's, sound mixers, grips, focus pullers, camera ops, editors, etc) make that transition quicker than others, but it's not unusual for an experienced composer to take up low/no paying gigs even later in his career which is a pretty sad thing.

Actors are a whole different breed, but even they have a union. Most of my actor friends...actually make that all of my actor friends are SAG which at least puts them in a position to at least be required to get scale or else they get in trouble with the union.

Regarding Paramount trying to do $100k movies....I find it bizarre and ultimately I don't think it's going to happen as it's probably mostly some publicity stunt for the studio. At $100k, that presumes that many of the people involved will have to work for free. I can't imagine anyone being able to justify to themselves the idea of working for free for a multi-billion company...regardless what the potential payoffs might be. Also, discussing this with several producers and director friends, it would appear that such a plan will not be cool as far as the unions are concerned.

What I think would be smart for Paramount and for all the other studios is to take a closer look to low budget films which they would have passed on before a couple of months ago. I'm working on one of those films right now (and getting paid). It's a low budget but extremely well produced with a cast that just rocks the screen. Perhaps this very film might benefit from the success of Paranormal Activity if that means that the studios will take it as a potential hit for them.


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## billval3 (Dec 16, 2009)

midphase @ Wed Dec 16 said:


> I know....some people (DP's, sound mixers, grips, focus pullers, camera ops, editors, etc) make that transition quicker than others, but it's not unusual for an experienced composer to take up low/no paying gigs even later in his career which is a pretty sad thing.



Yes, that's definitely a problem.


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## Dave Connor (Dec 16, 2009)

I once did an instrumental title for a TV show (non-union) which was accepted by the producers who paid a pretty small flat fee. They knew the royalties would be good (they took 1/2 publishing or 25%) I thought it might sound cool with a vocal so I sang on it and they liked that even better. BUT! Once I had sang AFTRA had to be contacted since the producers are a signatory. So a one time fee was negotiated with them which helped me in the up front money.

So you can see that some unions have a real presence and power but the music union isn't one of them. Only large studios and a handful of composers seem to go that route but it's basically perfunctory and not the same dynamic found in other unions.


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## presetfreund (Dec 19, 2009)

Hi all,

I´d like to add my point of view to this "working for free" issue.

I definitely want to get paid for any work that i do -provided the guy who buys my work plans to s e l l his product (film, game or whatever) to others.
This is a question how i work and live (which is the same). And which the values are that suit my life/work plan.

Business and life values, such as:

Fairness: Treat others like you want to be treated. That means e.g. if you want to get paid for composing make sure that you have purchased at least a c e r t a i n amount of your precious sample lib stuff.

Respect and Self-respect: People will cherish you just like you cherish yourself.
If your work for free they will think that you have no self-respect so why should 
t h e y respect you respectively give you any money for your work?

As said, this has worked fine for me during the last years -though i am not yet a millionaire.

The more i would be eager to learn more about TheHeresy´s (btw, cool nickname!) career r e a l l y has developped with his business approach. I did not find his homepage but would like to check out the quality of his work and state of career. And writing in a forum is cheap. Everyone can do that (even i can do that with my superb English :D 
If his/her business approach works maybe i will forget about fairness, solidarity, self-respect and price-dumping-avoidance -and try some other values! That´s the cool thing about being a human: you can always decide what you wanna be 

Thanks,
Andreas


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## billval3 (Dec 19, 2009)

FWIW, the strategy I have used on very low, or no, budget projects is to name my fee and be willing to discount that fee. I believe it was Richard Bellis's book that I picked that up from. The point is to establish a relationship where the filmmaker understands what you believe you are worth from the outset. You make it clear that you are willing to make certain allowances for the given project, but that the same deal would not hold true in the future.

Now I can imagine someone countering that the filmmaker will just move along to someone else cheap on the next project. I suppose that's possible, but the idea is that if your work really IS good, they will want to stick with you.

EDIT: Unfortunately something I've noticed with some of these beginning directors is that they don't even seem to realize that it might COST someone money to produce a good score. Apparently it doesn't occur to them that regardless of whether or not we're gonna get paid, it's still going to cost money to give them some great music!


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## José Herring (Dec 30, 2009)

Brian Ralston @ Wed Dec 30 said:


> billval3 @ Sat Dec 19 said:
> 
> 
> > FWIW, the strategy I have used on very low, or no, budget projects is to name my fee and be willing to discount that fee.
> ...



I agree. You can negotiate creative fees all night long, but as soon as you mention production cost they get it.

As far as experienced composers taking low or no paying gigs its one of my biggest pet peeves as far as composing goes. I was going for a little 2 million dollar film a few years back. Once that I lost and I looked to see who got it....Bill Conti! I'm thinking that I know it's been a while since the dude pulled in a Major motion picture but gimme a break man. The amount of money involved in this gig wouldn't have even paid for new breaks on his Ferrari.

At any rate on the original topic of composers losing luster I think that the traditional way of composing is losing its luster. James Horner on one hand doesn't do demos. Basically the first time the director is hearing his scores is on the Stage. I think this limits him. Zimmer on the other had does fantastic demos. He also records some of his demos with full orchestra. This gives the filmmakers time to get a feel for the score. Also gives him time to discuss new directions and to be creative in a way that Horner just isn't taking advantage of.

So I think the luster is highly dependent upon how much creativity one is willing to put into any one given project. I personally feel that if the filmmakers feel that you're going that extra mile. Presenting them with alternatives and really searching for the best music for their project they give you a lot of respect. But if they feel that you're kind of just there for the ride then of course they give you little freedom.

I was listen to Zimmer talk about how he worked on the last Batman one night. I was kind of a fly on the wall in the hallway but it was interesting to hear him talk. He would pull 48 hours straight in the studio working on the sound, the sound design the mix after the orchestra recorded. At one point the director begged Hans to go back to his hotel room and get some rest. I mean if a film maker sees dedication like that it's going to inspire a lot of confidence that they're getting the best possible from the guy. So, basically the director just let him do his thing.

Jose


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## theheresy (Dec 30, 2009)

josejherring @ Wed Dec 30 said:


> Brian Ralston @ Wed Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > billval3 @ Sat Dec 19 said:
> ...



One can always say, "I can always lower my "fee" for a project I believe has merit but I have hard built in costs of producing a score that I can not ignore." Usually producers get that. So you say you might be lowering your "fee" to a smaller level...but you itemize the hard costs of producing the score (electric bill, rent for your place for the time you are working on the score, any new sample library costs, rental of your gear, engineering costs, HD storage cost, internet cost for communicating, media for delòt   ¼†Ht   ¼†It   ¼†Jt   ¼†Kt   ¼†Lt   ¼†Mt   ¼†Nt   ¼†Ot   ¼†Pt   ¼†Qt   ¼†Rt   ¼†St   ¼†Tt   ¼†Ut   ¼†Vt   ¼†Wt   ¼†Xt   ¼†Yt   ¼†Zt   ¼†[t   ¼†\t   ¼†]t   ¼†^t   ¼†_t   ¼†`t   ¼†at   ¼†bt   ¼†ct   ¼†dt   ¼†et   ¼†ft   ¼†gt   ¼†ht   ¼†it   ¼†jt   ¼†kt   ¼†lt   ¼†mt   ¼†nt   ¼†ot   ¼†pt   ¼†qt   ¼†rt   ¼†st   ¼†tt   ¼†ut   ¼†vt   ¼†wt   ¼†xt   ¼†yt   ¼†zt   ¼†{t   ¼†|t   ¼†}t   ¼†~t   ¼†t   ¼†€t   ¼†t   ¼†‚t   ¼†ƒt   ¼†„t   ¼†…t   ¼††t   ¼†‡t   ¼†ˆt   ¼†‰t   ¼†Št   ¼†‹t   ¼†Œt   ¼†t   ¼†Žt   ¼†t   ¼†t   ¼†‘t   ¼†’t   ¼†“t   ¼†”t   ¼†•t   ¼†–t   ¼†—t   ¼†˜t   ¼†™t   ¼†št   ¼†›t   ¼†œt   ¼†t   ¼†žt   ¼†Ÿt   ¼† t   ¼†¡t   ¼†¢t   ¼†£t   ¼†¤t   ¼†¥t   ¼†¦t   ¼†§t   ¼†¨t   ¼†©t   ¼†ªt   ¼†«t   ¼†¬t   ¼†­t   ¼†®t   ¼†¯t   ¼†°t   ¼†±t   ¼†²t   ¼†³t   ¼†´t   ¼†µt   ¼†¶t   ¼†·              òt   ¼†¹t   ¼†ºt   ¼†»t   ¼†¼t   ¼†½t   ¼†¾t   ¼†¿t‘   ¼†Àt‘   ¼†Át‘   ¼†Ât‘   ¼†Ãt‘   ¼†Ät‘   ¼†Åt‘   ¼†Æt‘   ¼†Çt‘   ¼†Èt‘   ¼†Ét‘   ¼†Êt‘   ¼†Ët‘   ¼†Ìt‘   ¼†Ít‘   ¼†Ît‘   ¼†Ït‘   ¼†Ðt‘   ¼†Ñt‘   ¼†Òt‘   ¼†Ót‘   ¼†Ôt‘   ¼†Õt‘   ¼†Öt‘   ¼†×t‘   ¼†Øt‘   ¼†Ùt‘   ¼†Út‘   ¼†Ût‘   ¼†Üt‘   ¼†Ýt‘   ¼†Þt‘   ¼†ßt‘   ¼†àt‘   ¼†át‘   ¼†ât‘   ¼†ãt‘   ¼†ät‘   ¼†åt‘   ¼†æt‘   ¼†çt‘   ¼†èt‘   ¼†ét‘   ¼†êt‘   ¼†ët‘   ¼†ìt‘   ¼†ít‘   ¼†ît‘   ¼†ït‘   ¼†ðt‘   ¼†ñt‘   ¼†òt‘   ¼†ót‘   ¼†ôt‘   ¼†õt‘   ¼†öt‘   ¼†÷t‘   ¼†øt‘   ¼†ùt‘   ¼†út‘   ¼†ût‘   ¼†üt‘   ¼†ýt‘   ¼†þt‘   ¼†ÿt‘   ¼‡ t‘   ¼‡t‘   ¼‡t‘   ¼‡t‘   ¼‡t‘   ¼‡t‘   ¼‡t‘   ¼‡t‘   ¼‡t‘   ¼‡	t‘   ¼‡
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