# Scared to ask for a payment (hiphop/pop instrumentals)



## ein fisch (Feb 18, 2019)

Title says it, i feel like in terms of music & making business with it i am super bad.. people right now ask me for a instrumental or hiphop artists for "beats" and i could make quite some connections just providing them free instrumentals..

However im starting to feel like im just too nice.. whenever they offer me "credits" im just like ok i'll do it and later regret it that i've spent so much time on something and just getting credits.. also "friends" of course make use of that and come at me like "come on, buddy, blahblahblah" and try to get the friends-bonus and pay nothing..

On the other side i also feel like, im still totally at zero, and not even have a bunch of reference tracks yet to confidently say "aight look, here are some examples, you get your's too for *** dollars".. you can call it "self-study-phase" so im not sure if im even in the position to ask for money or if it - in terms of making connections - really helps my career.. i have to say that im quite confident about my musical skills tho, learned everything what i need to know in my profession - all i lack of are examples of my work to show potential clients..

Im confused - some tips from you would be highly appreciated..


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## mikeh-375 (Feb 18, 2019)

Ask for just production costs as you still have to pay for the electricity otherwise you'll be paying them for the privilege, they will at least respect that or _should_ at least (nothing surprises me anymore in this industry). Personally I'd hold out for something as you will feel better within whilst doing the job. The worst that can happen is that they say no, but you will gain some self-respect. Btw, they do not know you are in a learning phase, so don't make them aware of it. Most clients wouldn't know good from bad and unless you are way off brief, you have a chance at least. Might be good to try for a cancellation/demo fee too if it gets rejected.
I understand your predicament though and someone else will probably say different or the opposite. It's a tough call, use your instincts, what feels right, to guide you.


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## studiostuff (Feb 18, 2019)

Please define "super bad".


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## ein fisch (Feb 18, 2019)

studiostuff said:


> Please define "super bad".


Knowing when the time is to ask for money, how much money, when to not ask for money - thats what i call super bad in doing business


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## mikeh-375 (Feb 18, 2019)

ein fisch said:


> Knowing when the time is to ask for money, how much money, when to not ask for money - thats what i call super bad in doing business



Best to do it up front imo.


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## studiostuff (Feb 18, 2019)

If you lack business skills, but feel as though you have adequate music skills that should provide you some income, perhaps you should collaborate with a partner who has complementary skills... a partner who loves music, especially loves your music, and dealing with people in a way that brings people together to provide everyone with something beneficial.

No reason for you to assume you need to do it all... Being part of a successful business can be complex.


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## Alex Fraser (Feb 18, 2019)

Credits: By all means, if you think the possible connection/step up the ladder is worth doing free work for, go for it. But there has to be a tangle benefit for *you*. That should be the rule. Be aware that there's an endless army of folk who'll make all sorts of promises to you to get free beats. I've been there.

There are however, thousands of artists on the internet who *are* willing to pay you upfront for your instrumentals and beats. Seriously. So, maybe mix the two and get some income going. It'll also give you some leverage against the "freebie" hunters. Good luck!


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## Daryl (Feb 18, 2019)

Just remember that when you set the precedent by working for nothing, that particular client is never likely to pay you for any future work. Why would they? You've already proven that you're willing to work for nothing.

If you do want to work for nothing, be sure to understand why you are doing it. Is it all about gaining experience? Why do you need a client for that? Exposure? As someone who will work for nothing? I'm sure that you get my drift. Just know why you are doing it, and then you will never feel bitter about it in the future.


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## HotCoffee (Feb 18, 2019)

Here's another perspective that you might want to consider from someone with hands on experience (not in this particular business though).

Giving away your hard work essentially for free can really mess with your sense of self worth in the long run and in the even longer run, it can cause significant psychological issues such as anxiety and/or depression. I used to do "favors" all the time earlier in my life, often in my spare time. Here are a few con's that I learned the hard way:

You add stress to your life while getting nothing or very little in return
You might be inclined to outdo yourself, because if you do, you might feel that this time I might be able to charge for it and if you can't find yourself to do it, then you'll enter a vicious cycle.

Some people (even so-called friends) *will *learn to walk all over you
People may be less likely to take you seriously
This might not apply to you at this particular point in time, but I encourage you to keep this aspect under advisement. You say that you feel confident about your work and abilities. If this is true and other people are liking your work (sounds like they do, since they are asking for it), then it sounds to me like you're ready to start billing for your services. Obviously you can't charge top dollar at the beginning of your career, but you should at the very least charge to cover basic production costs while building your reputation and portfolio.


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## robgb (Feb 18, 2019)

The only time I do anything for free is when *I* offer to do it for free. If someone asks me to do something for free I say no and I think it's pretty fucking audacious to ask someone to do something for free. You're either in business or you're a sucker.


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## robgb (Feb 18, 2019)




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## givemenoughrope (Feb 18, 2019)

Re-watch The Sopranos and then you won’t feel bad about negotiating.


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## Polkasound (Feb 18, 2019)

Unless it's for a friend or a charitable cause, I don't work for free. Ever. I've turned down numerous TV appearances over the years because they all wanted to pay with nothing but the promise of exposure. Sorry, but my face being broadcast into senior citizen apartment complexes is not going to help my drummer pay his utility bills.


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## SBK (Feb 18, 2019)

Damn man, we are in the same scenario but a bit different. Maybe you are at the beggining but I am far more. Been in that stuff and still am sometimes, but its not worth it so much. People will not take you seriously and will think you are always there to help them for free. As many said here. At least me, I don't do only free stuff. Its a serious subject to consider, and as someone said , why are you doing it... Why? Exposure? You got exposure even working for yourself with your portfolio demos. For oportunitys? Get your own, make them yourself! Focus in you and not the others cause they will always grab onto you and drink your blood   And I agree with everyone here beeing in the same stuff with you! How old are you? Maybe you are too good and you can't say no, fight it!


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## LamaRose (Feb 18, 2019)

Hiphop is full of leeches... even very successful writers/producers have and do get ripped-off... so I wouldn't count on any pay-it-forward magic.


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## EvgenyEmelyanov (Feb 18, 2019)

You probably have troubles doing this because of putting someone in a "tough" position. So, you feel uncomfortable and do not even try. 

You probably will be surprised but you will get respect from people and start to get what you want when you are straight with them. You just ask what you want for your hard work. Of course, sometimes you should be flexible and find compromises. But, in general, you need to be straight. 

At first, they will be disappointed. Some of them even unfriend you because you are not "nice" anymore. But at the same time, people are gonna respect you for having the balls to be straight with them.


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## EvgenyEmelyanov (Feb 18, 2019)

By the way, in the future, you might have another problem :D


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## HotCoffee (Feb 18, 2019)

EvgenyEmelyanov said:


> By the way, in the future, you might have another problem :D



I can't help but think that Clint should be "me".


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 18, 2019)

You need to learn how to become a cunning deceitful manipulator.


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## ein fisch (Feb 18, 2019)

SBK said:


> Damn man, we are in the same scenario but a bit different. Maybe you are at the beggining but I am far more. Been in that stuff and still am sometimes, but its not worth it so much. People will not take you seriously and will think you are always there to help them for free. As many said here. At least me, I don't do only free stuff. Its a serious subject to consider, and as someone said , why are you doing it... Why? Exposure? You got exposure even working for yourself with your portfolio demos. For oportunitys? Get your own, make them yourself! Focus in you and not the others cause they will always grab onto you and drink your blood   And I agree with everyone here beeing in the same stuff with you! How old are you? Maybe you are too good and you can't say no, fight it!



Thank you for the advice, i am 20 years old.

After reading all your experience's here i'll definitely take it and charge money in situations where they ask me for a musical favor (unless its THE opportunity to work for someone where credits payout)

Thanks all


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## MatFluor (Feb 18, 2019)

Just be careful that you don't become the "hey, that guy is doing it for free" guy

If you want to do it for free, just add a price tag and give 100% discount for whatever reason. It's hard to convince people that you suddenly want money, because word spreads like "hey, that's the free beats guy" - and suddenly that free beats guy wants money? Hell no, I'll look for the other free beats guy. If you know what I mean.

I would advise you to learn a bit of the business side (after all, it's business...) including negotiation, pricing and all that jazz.


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## ein fisch (Feb 18, 2019)

MatFluor said:


> Just be careful that you don't become the "hey, that guy is doing it for free" guy
> 
> If you want to do it for free, just add a price tag and give 100% discount for whatever reason. It's hard to convince people that you suddenly want money, because word spreads like "hey, that's the free beats guy" - and suddenly that free beats guy wants money? Hell no, I'll look for the other free beats guy. If you know what I mean.
> 
> I would advise you to learn a bit of the business side (after all, it's business...) including negotiation, pricing and all that jazz.



Thanks for the tip with the discount.. that sounds like a good solution

Does someone know of an online tutorial series or an article which covers those business-related topics in the music world? I would love to learn some of that but didn't find anything valuable oe trustworthy so far


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## Beluga (Feb 19, 2019)

Excuse my ignorance but I never understood what a beat is and what "selling beats" is. A beat to me is a short percussive element 4+4 bars maybe, played on the drums with a characteristic pattern between mainly bass drum and snare. I have a feeling this is not what people sell when they sell beats. I'd be curious to hear what you are actually selling or doing for others.


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## Alex Fraser (Feb 19, 2019)

Beluga said:


> Excuse my ignorance but I never understood what a beat is and what "selling beats" is. A beat to me is a short percussive element 4+4 bars maybe, played on the drums with a characteristic pattern between mainly bass drum and snare. I have a feeling this is not what people sell when they sell beats. I'd be curious to hear what you are actually selling or doing for others.


A "beat" is an instrumental usually in an urban genre like Hip-Hop, R&B. They're structured like a song (verse, chorus) and are written for an artist to write a song or rap with.


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## Drundfunk (Feb 19, 2019)

ein fisch said:


> Thank you for the advice, i am 20 years old.
> 
> After reading all your experience's here i'll definitely take it and charge money in situations where they ask me for a musical favor (unless its THE opportunity to work for someone where credits payout)
> 
> Thanks all


Keep in mind that payment doesn't necessarily has to be money. An invitation to lunch, a crate of beer, an invitation to this special event where you know you will meet this super special person who might give you another opportunity, all this stuff can be some form of payment as well. You have to value yourself as a person and your craft first. Don't expect that other people do it for you if you don't do it yourself.


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 19, 2019)

Drundfunk said:


> Keep in mind that payment doesn't necessarily has to be money. An invitation to lunch, a crate of beer, an invitation to this special event where you know you will meet this super special person who might give you another opportunity, all this stuff can be some form of payment as well. You have to value yourself as a person and your craft first. Don't expect that other people do it for you if you don't do it yourself.



I’ll write an album every month if someone wants to pay my rent!


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## Drundfunk (Feb 20, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> I’ll write an album every month if someone wants to pay my rent!


What you are looking for is a patron my friend


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## Saxer (Feb 20, 2019)

I work for free from time to time if I like the project and if I like the people.
But when I enter my studio in the morning I start with -50€. That's the cost for having running computers, installed plugins and all the libraries, monitors, electricity, internet, a chair and rent for the place. That's what I always communicate first. It's not just working for free. It's paying them.
And there are two kind of people. Some really know what you are doing and try to support you for your work. Others just have their victory for getting something for free and don't care what you invested as long as they have a benefit. I never work for those guys anymore. They just ask for more and you will never get something back. They promise to make you 'famous'. At the end they make you well known as the guy who is working for free.
By the way: Where do "credits" appear in a hip hop track?


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## Daryl (Feb 21, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> I’ll write an album every month if someone wants to pay my rent!


If those albums are any good, they will easily pay your rent, and much more.


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## ein fisch (Feb 22, 2019)

Saxer said:


> I work for free from time to time if I like the project and if I like the people.
> But when I enter my studio in the morning I start with -50€. That's the cost for having running computers, installed plugins and all the libraries, monitors, electricity, internet, a chair and rent for the place. That's what I always communicate first. It's not just working for free. It's paying them.
> And there are two kind of people. Some really know what you are doing and try to support you for your work. Others just have their victory for getting something for free and don't care what you invested as long as they have a benefit. I never work for those guys anymore. They just ask for more and you will never get something back. They promise to make you 'famous'. At the end they make you well known as the guy who is working for free.
> By the way: Where do "credits" appear in a hip hop track?



In the description of his youtube video (probably no one will read it).. but i can use it as a reference track, and if he's really really good, why not

I see the problem and will hardly try to avoid people like that.. also i really need to learn the power of saying no


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