# Is there life after Keymap Pro?



## fretless58 (May 21, 2020)

I know this is very old news, but until recently I've managed to keep using Redmatica Keymap Pro on an old Mac with an old OS for my sample looping needs. I have finally come to the point that I had to put it to rest. I need to move on, but I really haven't seen anything comparable. I figured I would put the question to the forum. I've searched here and found the name Loop Auditioneer used a lot. Is this really the best way to go? I fear I've been spoiled by Keymap Pro. It was such a beautiful piece of software. What are you guys using? Thanks in advance.


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## fretless58 (May 23, 2020)

The lack of any responses to my query speaks volumes, actually.

No software developers have stepped up to fill the void left by Keymap Pro. My belief is that when Apple bought Redmatica, and initially made empty promises to users about keeping it alive and making improvements, they realized what a small market there was for Keymap and killed it.

That was many years ago, I know. Old news.

Looping hundreds of samples was tedious enough with Keymap. If I am to continue to assume this chore of our VI development with some primitive app that requires they be done individually and with no intuitive algorithms working behind the scenes, well, I don't know what to think, quite honestly. I'm looking at probably three times the effort.

I've been messing around in Kontakt, since it is probably our only hope, and find it tedious. Again, I know I'm spoiled from having used Keymap. 

Maybe there's a better spot on the forum to park this thread? This one seemed appropriate. Any response at all would be welcome.


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## gyprock (May 23, 2020)

I thought some of the Keymap technology was adapted and included in Sampler in Logic 10.5.


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## fretless58 (May 23, 2020)

Thanks for the response.

That's true, but a very bare-bones version compared to the stand-alone version. Many useful, key elements were left out.

I just found Steinberg WaveLab Elements; looks promising. Fingers crossed


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## Regentag (May 23, 2020)

I can feel your pain. I've still got Keymap Pro on a partition with El Capitan. Haven't found anything like it. I think it's the last OS that supports Keymap Pro. I hate doing this kind of stuff in Kontakt. Maybe the new Samplers in Logic Pro 10.5. can fill the gap a little.


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## Sean J (Jul 24, 2020)

What did you end up going with?


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## KrisY (Feb 7, 2021)

fretless58 said:


> Looping hundreds of samples was tedious enough with Keymap. If I am to continue to assume this chore of our VI development with some primitive app that requires they be done individually and with no intuitive algorithms working behind the scenes, well, I don't know what to think, quite honestly. (...)


I agree completely. Apple (and others) have done this before, bought brilliant tools that are critical to some, then used 5% of the power included in those tools, then trashed the product. Really nasty. 

The point where Keymap Pro was the most brilliant in looping notes was the fading of the transitions in the loop. That sometimes included the EQ:ing of the end and beginning to match the nuance in the tone. Something NO OTHER app does. No internal tool in Kontakt will do this, so Kontakt alone cannot make seamless transitions in looping. For key or string instruments that is fatal. You will end up with a loop that you can easily hear is looped if you do not manually edit... what 20000 sounds? Not doable. 

Logic´s Sampler is not using most of the tools in Keymap. Even if it did, you still could not utilize that for another sampler format. And who only uses EXS24 (which the actual format still is, I guess) for anything else? Forget about exporting all other formats from that one. Perhaps with Chicken Systems Translator, and they do have a brilliant mapping tool, the Constructor. Not likely as detailed and brilliant as Keymap was for looping samples though, and I say that without having used the app (so dont take my word for it).



Products : Constructor : Overview






Regentag said:


> I can feel your pain. I've still got Keymap Pro on a partition with El Capitan. Haven't found anything like it. I think it's the last OS that supports Keymap Pro.



I too have an OS just for old apps that are not supported in new ones. Sas to have to do that, alas the only way.


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## whinecellar (Feb 7, 2021)

Yep, I’m still miffed at Apple for ditching that and EXS Manager. Both were brilliant. Still can’t believe nobody has stepped in to make a similar tool. I need to bug Garth at Chicken Systems.

I must say though, looping is almost luxurious in the new Sampler interface in Logic. If only they’d add some of those Keymap features...


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## KrisY (Feb 7, 2021)

Another one I had forgotten about is the quite new addition, "SampleRobot":









SampleRobot 6 | Your Sample Library Creator


The award-winning music application SampleRobot offers a lot of high quality autosampling and loop processing features to enrich your music productions. Create your own professional virtual instruments, loops, beatz and sample libraries in a jiffy. Available for Mac and Pc.



samplerobot.com





They got looping features too, and it seems to be about automatic sampling, like with synthesizers that are controlled via midi, or anything that can be automated via MIDI.



Never tried it myself but seems well made.

Even if Auto Sampler is a feature of the new Logic Pro X 'Sampler' software, there is still most likely going to be an issue of exporting anything you make in such proprietary tech *to any other format*, even if you would use detailed translator tools, as Translator from Chicken Systems itself.




*Destructive vs non-destructive stuff:*



fretless58 said:


> I just found Steinberg WaveLab Elements; looks promising. Fingers crossed


Wavelab is great, but where Keymap Pro would let you do audio sample normalization by simply dragging over a few keys (as a sample production important example), WaveLab is instead performing destructive file editing with the same aim. If we use the Loudness Normalizer or such plugins. They are then changed forever and new batches will be produced filling up your expensive new SSD. :/

Keymap would let you perform automatically updated X-Y-Z axis controlled "on-the-fly" overall volume changes to the perceived loudness. This was then able to be max-min controlled. Brilliant. Nothing ever came close to that feature, nothing I ever tried.

One difference in the actual result between Keymaps non-destructive sample-volume meta tag change and Wavelab´s destructive one, is that Wavelab will make a more exact volume change, like +-0.001 in difference in volume, which in the ranges -1 to 0 would make a difference. Keymap would instead export it in the format, that would or wouldn´t (as in the case of EXS24/Sampler) be in whole dB steps. So -1dBFS or -2dBFS. Nothing in between. So for cross-platform translation, changing your actual samples with wavelab would be preferred.


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## Karma (Feb 8, 2021)

I've been wanting to get my hands on Keymap for a while, but sadly missed the boat on that one. It's a real shame it's no longer possible to grab it as I'd buy it without even thinking if I could.

I've researched and tried other alternatives, some of which are mentioned above, but none can quite do what I've seen Keymap could.


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## Loïc D (Feb 8, 2021)

KrisY said:


> Never tried it myself but seems well made.


I've been using SampleRobot years ago (version 4 I guess) to autosample & map my old SY35 synth favorite custom made patches and bring them with me anywhere.
It worked well, even though I had to finetune the looping points.



KrisY said:


> as Translator from Chicken Systems itself


I used it too a long time ago ! It was not working so well for me but I was working with Yamaha sampler which has limited compatibilty with Akai format and also early versions of Kontakt (yes I'm an old fart). No doubt these solutions have vastly improved since then.


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## KrisY (Feb 8, 2021)

The *method* one can use when not using keymap is to use *SFZ tools* (open source tools) to get a mapped instrument, then use a translator to do the conversion. It also enables you to make the edits to the file directly in your text editor, as SFZ is a plain text/code language.

Check out the SFZ tools here:
https://sfzformat.com/software/tools/

And the number one mapper for mac and windows seems to be the free :





Bjoerns Sample Mapper | Björn Bojahr







www.bjoernbojahr.de





Here´s a screen shot of that, it´s basic but good:






Also as a plus, if you have logic on mac, and like to map things in EXS24 or 'Sampler', you can then get a SFZ version via Broern´s other tool, the EXS2SFZ converter. The SFZ format can after all be used in all DAWs on both PC and Mac (and in Linux with Carla or other VST-wrapper softwares) using Sforzando player.

Translator can then be used to convert the SFZ format into all others, and since you can easily edit out or search/replace things in an open text format, you can always edit out incompatible things and make sure transfers happen without a developer needing to be involved. That´s sustainable to me.

If you are using HISE to make vst:s you can import SFZ as a file into the sample mapper and voila, mapped. Not sure if Kontakt reads the SFZ format. But _Kontakt is probably a better mapping tool_ than any of the SFZ tools _if that is your only platform_ or format.

As a direct relation to the reason @fretless58 wrote this post to begin with, Bjoern also has a *auto loop maker software*, for samples, not specific to any format, as it seems. It´s called "*Endless Wave*" and the description from translated German is:



> Software for creating *sustain loops* in WAV files (8, 16 and 24 bit) with loop mix, *auto loop, real-time crossfade, fade and cut functions*. ...
> ... you can rename a complete folder with WAV files and have the root key entered in the file name and header using different patterns.



Check out what Endless Wave can do for you - for *PC & Mac*:





Endless WAV | Björn Bojahr







www.bjoernbojahr.de





Here´s an image of that:


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## StraightAheadSamples (Feb 8, 2021)

Still have a dedicated Keymap iMac here. Bookmarking this thread for the day when that computer dies.


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## KrisY (Feb 8, 2021)

StraightAheadSamples said:


> Still have a dedicated Keymap iMac here. Bookmarking this thread for the day when that computer dies.


You can just have a VMWare Fusion virtual machine set up with the installed correct apple drivers to have access to the core audio drivers. My machine has a 10.10 Yosemite OS installed with Keymap Pro on. It does the trick. With shared folders from the mac/PC host you can run Keymap Pro directly using the original files. I usually copy the files to a share location though, just incase something should happen to the files that is a part of a bug/other stuff.

When using a PC the drivers will most likely fail, but you do not need to be able to play an instrument you are mapping. Just export and import into the playback sampler you´re making it for. You need RAM/SSD space for a VM and a large screen for it too, cause Keymap does not exactly have a "real" user interface. Not really the thing Redmatica put their soul into  To the complete benefit of Keymaps actual functions!

Just to try out a VMWare fusion image, there is no need to install one yourself. There are torrent files out there that will deliver the raw os in a image for you to start directly. It´s of course off-books activity, but a virtual machine is only used in a box and is only started when you want it. So no harm done if it should be infested with some malware, since it will be shut down upon completion of your patches. If you are worried, just deny the virtual machine internet alltogether, and you´re good to go.

VMWare Fusion seems to be better than VirtualBox, at least in my own usage, but newer versions of VirtualBox are really solid, it´s just about what edition of what you can find. VMWare drivers are made with a dedicated company in charge, not open source, so they will be more solid where actual explicit support is available.


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## Tronam (Feb 9, 2021)

KrisY said:


> I agree completely. Apple (and others) have done this before, bought brilliant tools that are critical to some, then used 5% of the power included in those tools, then trashed the product. Really nasty.


It's true and I largely agree, although at least in Apple's case they do tend to prefer hiring creative people, not simply buy out their products to harvest the IP. For example, Andrea Gozzi, the founder of Redmatica still works for Apple even now and is part of their audio engineering team. The same is true of Camel Audio (Alchemy, CamelCrusher, etc...) and of course the founder/CEO of Emagic, Gerhard Lengeling, who still runs the whole team. Hopefully we'll see the return of some of Keymap's more sophisticated tools. Perhaps now that EXS24 has been overhauled, this will be easier to do moving forward.


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## charlieclouser (Feb 10, 2021)

KrisY said:


> And the number one mapper for mac and windows seems to be the free :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good find on the Bjoern's tools - somehow I missed those. Even though I still run KeyMap, it's a hassle to switch boot drives and all that just to do some basic "Detect Root Note From File Name" map-building, so Bjoern's tools are a welcome addition.


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## KrisY (Feb 16, 2021)

Tronam said:


> Hopefully we'll see the return of some of Keymap's more sophisticated tools. Perhaps now that EXS24 has been overhauled, this will be easier to do moving forward.


Yes, I really hope so. But I also hope they will try to support some other formats for exports if that happens. SFZ is a open source one, so that would be easier than others that may come with some licensing issues.


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## Tronam (Feb 16, 2021)

KrisY said:


> Yes, I really hope so. But I also hope they will try to support some other formats for exports if that happens. SFZ is a open source one, so that would be easier than others that may come with some licensing issues.


Me too. I've been using TAL Sampler a lot lately, but much prefer the sampling UI and workflow in Logic and haven't found a way to convert Logic Sampler instruments over to SFZ/SF2.


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## MrBBojahr (Apr 6, 2021)

Tronam said:


> Me too. I've been using TAL Sampler a lot lately, but much prefer the sampling UI and workflow in Logic and haven't found a way to convert Logic Sampler instruments over to SFZ/SF2.


There is a small software "Bjoerns Sample Mapper" on my website. It works with simple instruments and tries to import the mapping from EXS24 files. I use the software myself for this task, so it may be worth a try. It may not be compatible with every file. There is professional sample converter software for this, such as a translator from Chickensys or something. But reading a simple mapping with WAV files into SFZ format occasionally, it should work for that. Simply drag the exs24 / sampler instrument into the software window...


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## thesteelydane (Jul 29, 2021)

MrBBojahr said:


> There is a small software "Bjoerns Sample Mapper" on my website. It works with simple instruments and tries to import the mapping from EXS24 files. I use the software myself for this task, so it may be worth a try. It may not be compatible with every file. There is professional sample converter software for this, such as a translator from Chickensys or something. But reading a simple mapping with WAV files into SFZ format occasionally, it should work for that. Simply drag the exs24 / sampler instrument into the software window...


Hey Bjoern, thank you so much for creating Endless Wav, it's a fantastic tool! If I could suggest one improvement, it would be this: When working with long samples, it would be useful to be able to only listen to the loop transition, so for example when I hit play it would start 1 or 2 seconds before the loop end marker. Ideally the length of this "pre-roll" would be user selectable. That way I wouldn't have to sit there and listen to the whole sample, when I'm only interested in hearing the loop point transition. When working with long samples as I often do, this would save me many hours, if not days!


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## d.healey (Jul 29, 2021)

thesteelydane said:


> When working with long samples as I often do, this would save me many hours, if not days!


Loop Auditioneer does this


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## MrBBojahr (Jul 29, 2021)

thesteelydane said:


> Hey Bjoern, thank you so much for creating Endless Wav, it's a fantastic tool! If I could suggest one improvement, it would be this: When working with long samples, it would be useful to be able to only listen to the loop transition, so for example when I hit play it would start 1 or 2 seconds before the loop end marker. Ideally the length of this "pre-roll" would be user selectable. That way I wouldn't have to sit there and listen to the whole sample, when I'm only interested in hearing the loop point transition. When working with long samples as I often do, this would save me many hours, if not days!


Hi thesteelydane,
this suggestion came by mail a couple of times, but until now I always lacked a little time to implement it. Today I tried to implement this function. You can now activate the function in the settings. Currently only for the Mac version for now. Are you by chance a Mac user? Please download version 1.8.39b3 from my homepage. If it would be possible, I would appreciate a short feedback if the function works as desired.
Many greetings
Björn


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## thesteelydane (Jul 30, 2021)

MrBBojahr said:


> Hi thesteelydane,
> this suggestion came by mail a couple of times, but until now I always lacked a little time to implement it. Today I tried to implement this function. You can now activate the function in the settings. Currently only for the Mac version for now. Are you by chance a Mac user? Please download version 1.8.39b3 from my homepage. If it would be possible, I would appreciate a short feedback if the function works as desired.
> Many greetings
> Björn


Thank you so much. Luckily I am a Mac user, so I'll give it a go now!

Update: Working well here, thank you so much! I'd like to donate a bit of money for this excellent piece of software and your quick response, but I can't find a donate button on your website...


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## Mike Greene (Jul 30, 2021)

MrBBojahr said:


> There is a small software "Bjoerns Sample Mapper" on my website. It works with simple instruments and tries to import the mapping from EXS24 files. I use the software myself for this task, so it may be worth a try. It may not be compatible with every file. There is professional sample converter software for this, such as a translator from Chickensys or something. But reading a simple mapping with WAV files into SFZ format occasionally, it should work for that. Simply drag the exs24 / sampler instrument into the software window...


Bjoern, feel free to post about this (and Endless Wav, if that is a separate product?) in our Commercial Announcements section (or maybe in one of the sampler forums or wherever), even if it was released long ago. Continue answering questions in this thread, too, of course, but a product(s) like this would be of use to a lot of people, so it would be great for it to have its own thread as well, so that people will notice it more.

If you post in Commercial Announcements, use Tier 1, not Tier 2. (Shhh!  )


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