# Piracy



## jleckie (Apr 4, 2012)

Thought this was an interesting read:

http://zackhemsey.blogspot.com/2012/03/ ... l.html?m=1


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## midphase (Apr 4, 2012)

Here we go...grab your popcorn folks!


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## NYC Composer (Apr 4, 2012)

The writer makes a lot of good points.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 4, 2012)

OMG!!! Kays has a new avatar!!!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 4, 2012)

While we're in the subject, I have a question: you know those legal services that offer unlimited access to millions of songs for 10 bucks a month or whatever - what kind of royalties do the artists get?


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## jleckie (Apr 4, 2012)

well-just trying to make conversation. I don't promote piracy but I have had illegal software before and I liked it an then bought it. That was one of the points in the article.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 4, 2012)

jleckie @ Wed Apr 04 said:


> well-just trying to make conversation. I don't promote piracy but I have had illegal software before and I liked it an then bought it. That was one of the points in the article.



Well, I'm glad that's worked for ya. I think you should get some more!


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## choc0thrax (Apr 4, 2012)

The article is a lot more entertaining if you steal some of Zach's music and listen while you read.


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## Daryl (Apr 5, 2012)

I think that the whole Royalties issue is going to become a real problem in the future, mostly because of jealousy of other workers. To a person with a normal job it seems incredible that you can be paid for working and then get extra money for the job you've already been paid for. Not only does this money last for the rest of your life, but in most countries it lasts 70 years after you have died. To the most rational of people this seems pretty ridiculous, and I'm sure that in the not too distant future there will be changes made, whether we like it or not.

Therefore as composers we should think not just about what we want, but also, and potentially more importantly, what we need. In other areas of Intellectual Copyright the lifetimes of the Right is much shorter, in some cases as little as 10 years. I can't think of any justification for 70 years after death, and it seems to me that we need to find out where we draw the line. Not all battles can be won, so picking the right battle is important.

The situation in the US is worse than in Europe, so we are under more pressure at the moment, but the time will come when a stand will have to be made and composers have proven time and time again that their own selfish short term well being overrides any consideration for others.

D


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## IFM (Apr 5, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Apr 04 said:


> While we're in the subject, I have a question: you know those legal services that offer unlimited access to millions of songs for 10 bucks a month or whatever - what kind of royalties do the artists get?



Rhapsody is one that you are referring to and I get the most laughable amount on the planet. Copied directly from my report: $0.00240000. It might as well be piracy. This is why I like the iTunes model MUCH better...I make a lot more $$.

Chris


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## Stephen_Gunter (Apr 5, 2012)

What is everyone's opinion on having illegal software to learn the programs or libraries when you can't afford them, and then buying them once you have the money?

-Steve


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## wst3 (Apr 5, 2012)

Stephen_Gunter @ Thu Apr 05 said:


> What is everyone's opinion on having illegal software to learn the programs or libraries when you can't afford them, and then buying them once you have the money?
> 
> -Steve



hate to sound like a jerk, but it is still stealing.

If I want to learn to drive a 911 does that mean I can 'borrow' one to do so?

I don't see a difference.

Doesn't mean I'm right, just my opinion...


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## noiseboyuk (Apr 5, 2012)

Well, apparently royalty payments in the UK overall grew by 3.2% last in year, in part because of Spotify:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012 ... ongwriters

This article makes the point that comparing Spotify royalties with CD royalties doesn't make too much sense, but comparing it with radio is more analogous - and on that basis, Spotify pays a lot more, per listener.

http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/industry ... 2352.story

And the short answer appears to be (for Spotify) an average of 0.3 cents per play.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 5, 2012)

Daryl @ Thu Apr 05 said:


> I think that the whole Royalties issue is going to become a real problem in the future, mostly because of jealousy of other workers. To a person with a normal job it seems incredible that you can be paid for working and then get extra money for the job you've already been paid for. Not only does this money last for the rest of your life, but in most countries it lasts 70 years after you have died. To the most rational of people this seems pretty ridiculous, and I'm sure that in the not too distant future there will be changes made, whether we like it or not.
> 
> Therefore as composers we should think not just about what we want, but also, and potentially more importantly, what we need. In other areas of Intellectual Copyright the lifetimes of the Right is much shorter, in some cases as little as 10 years. I can't think of any justification for 70 years after death, and it seems to me that we need to find out where we draw the line. Not all battles can be won, so picking the right battle is important.
> 
> The situation in the US is worse than in Europe, so we are under more pressure at the moment, but the time will come when a stand will have to be made and composers have proven time and time again that their own selfish short term well being overrides any consideration for others.


I've never understood the 70 years after death thing. Not that I've ever written anything significant enough that my great great great grandchildren would ever collect from anyway, but even if I did, I'd rather that my descendants get jobs and make their own way in the world.

Seems to me that offering a more realistic copyright term as a goodwill gesture could help somewhat in getting stronger enforcement laws passed.


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## MacQ (Apr 5, 2012)

Stephen_Gunter @ Thu Apr 05 said:


> What is everyone's opinion on having illegal software to learn the programs or libraries when you can't afford them, and then buying them once you have the money?
> 
> -Steve



I think if you're 16 that's probably fine. If you're 30 and it's training, buy a damn educational license at least! I've spent countless thousands buying hardware, software and libraries over the last 10 years. I've bought stuff that was claiming to be amazing, but just wasn't. <cough>Korg Triton<cough>. Luckily with hardware you can recoup your investment in resale, but with software and samples, the "all sales are final" attitude in the industry just encourages people to pirate, lest they fall prey to overzealous marketing and/or misleading demos and be out the $350 or whatever. Or worse, the $1,000 or more for some of the bigger libraries. 

I understand the thinking of "price it as high as the market will bear", the examples being things like VSL and (generally) ProjectSAM. But there's also the problem of "price it so high that everyone uses a cracked/stolen copy". So it's always that trade-off between units moved vs. price. You raise the price, move fewer units legitimately, and have a HUGE pirated-user base, or you have rock-bottom prices to try and maximize the "hobbiest" purchase base, and end up selling a LOT of product to a wider user-base, while at the same time "devaluing" your product because the price wasn't high enough. That was the recent case with Kirk Hunter whose brand gets a lot of flack around here for some reason. I personally don't really dig his aesthetic, but there are LOTS of people who do, so I don't think it's fair to speak ill of him. Also, just because some of the developers around here are pretty much deified by the regulars (CineSamples, AudioBro, 8dio et al), you can't be critical of their products without suffering some knee-jerk "Andrew Keresztes is our Lord and Saviour" personal-relationship infused rebuttal. Which, honestly guys, is dumb. 

I'm not singling you out Andrew, by any means. But it seems that when a product by any developer comes up lacking, it's me and Simon Ravn who call it as it lies. (And invariably some who are OVER critical, oddly). And then Simon or to a lesser extent I might get a bad reputation for being a dick. But we're not. We're just *intensely* passionate about our work, and we demand *perfection*. 

Because what people don't seem to understand is that this is our LIFE. Literally, this is how we pay our families. I think we could all push a little harder for perfection, to advance our art further. Does it make sense for me to coddle the makers of the tools I use if I think they need improvements? Of course not. It's not personal at ALL. Honestly, I don't know any of these guys "behind the forums", so how could it be personal? I'm critical of PRODUCTS not PEOPLE. I know all of these guys are immensely talented (there's not a developer among them who isn't also a gifted composer). It's just that sometimes, either through tunnel-vision in development crunch (which is BRUTAL by the way ... I have NO idea how the likes of CineSamples, 8dio, Soundiron, etc, put in those kinds of hours with such a small team) ... or through a fiscal inability to rigorously test before product launch. Some of these libraries cost a LOT of money to produce. My wife would never let me gamble that kind of money! Haha.

But sometimes, the Emperor has NO clothes on. And it's just baffling how people can't seem to "hear" it. Or worse get sold on the "this is how it's supposed to sound, so get used to it" line. If it sounds bad to me, it IS bad. I don't care if it's "human", it sounds awful. (Which reminds me, people give string players a too-easy pass on tuning. I know it's unfretted, but honestly it's a monophonic line ... if I had a choir that played as out-of-tune and over/under-shot intervals like that, I'd fire them. Sloppy != Musical.)

Anyway, that meandered far off-topic, but relates directly to the piracy debate. I think if developers across the BOARD drop prices to the price of a tank of gas (in any territory, people pay that) ... the market could broaden and simultaneously tamp down the piracy since the product would be affordable to anyone who has the computer to run it. But that's borderline socialism and obviously a STUPID idea, right? 

I guess ultimately my aims aren't financial but artistic. I want to see what people can create. I want to see more output from talented but financially crippled people, from more parts of the world. I can live with the "everyone's a terrible trailer-music composer ripping off a sound from 3 years ago" YouTube onslaught (which exists already, but would be worsened if the stuff was cheaper) if it means getting the tools in the hands of people who actually have something to say, artistically.

And that's just my take on a few things.

~Stu


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## Daryl (Apr 5, 2012)

Mike Greene @ Thu Apr 05 said:


> I've never understood the 70 years after death thing. Not that I've ever written anything significant enough that my great great great grandchildren would ever collect from anyway, but even if I did, I'd rather that my descendants get jobs and make their own way in the world.
> 
> Seems to me that offering a more realistic copyright term as a goodwill gesture could help somewhat in getting stronger enforcement laws passed.


Originally the "after death" made sense, because composers were men, and it used to be that their wife would be much younger, with many children and no way of making a living without the husband. That is no longer the case. In fact the whole "up from 50 years to 70 years" was all due to the greed of the French! Ravel's Publisher wanted to keep his music in Copyright for as long as possible. For some reason the rest of Europe followed, and then most of the World caved as well.

I agree that at some point we will have to be more realistic, in order that we don't lose everything. I doubt that most ordinary working people would have much sympathy for our unique situation.

D


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## Mike Greene (Apr 5, 2012)

MacQ @ Thu Apr 05 said:


> Anyway, that meandered far off-topic


Really? I hadn't noticed. (Sorry, just teasing :mrgreen: )



MacQ @ Thu Apr 05 said:


> . . but relates directly to the piracy debate. I think if developers across the BOARD drop prices to the price of a tank of gas . . .


I hear this one a lot. Consider this:

I created a drum library for Stylus RMX called Acoustic Kits. ( http://sampleholics.com/ ) I spent a ton of money, recorded five drummers, sampled their individual drums (each guy brought multiple snares, of course) and cymbals and mapped them so they can be played individually in Stylus. This is all done with four different mixes (close mic on up to a John Bonham type mix.) Certainly not everyone's cup of tea, but I dare say it's a ton of great drum sounds and for those who want it, it's worth the $39 I charge for it. (Tank of gas territory, right?)

I've sold around 120 copies of this. (I'm waaay in the red on this one.) There's no copy protection, so I assume there might be a little piracy going on.

Oh wait . . . did I say "a _little?"_ There's no way to know exactly how many people have illegal copies, but consider this: I have a YouTube video for how to use "Acoustic Kits." (This is for people who already bought it and is completely different from the sales video I made.) That video has over 8,000 views. So either the people who bought it are really stupid and needed to watch that video about 70 times each, or else there are a heck of a lot of people who thought that even the price of a tank of gas was too much.


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## MacQ (Apr 5, 2012)

Mike Greene @ Thu Apr 05 said:


> There's no way to know exactly how many people have illegal copies



I understand that completely. I suppose the safest bet of all was EastWest developing their own engine with iLok etc. I haven't heard of any piracy of their products, and by their own admission their sales soared. Yet they still price their products as though they're building "piracy loss" into the price.

With regards to your drums, I'm sure they sound great. The sales problem might have had more to do with the fact that drums are one of the most ubiquitously sampled things, rather than because of piracy. I personally have more drum sounds than I'll ever need, you know? Plus it was released for Stylus RMX, which might've hurt more than it helped. I think lots more people own Stylus RMX than actually USE Stylus RMX. I mean, it sat dormant on my HD for like a year and a half before I finally sold my license. The whole "neglected step-child" thread speaks to that a bit. Please know that I'm absolutely not trying to play devil's advocate for the pirate-user base, and I sincerely hope I don't offend with my comments and presumptions. I want you to succeed! I want all of us to succeed! :D 

I love your aesthetic, and I hope your Realivox product is selling well, since I think THAT is an area that's incredibly under-represented (because of the sheer challenge of making voices sound "real" when played with a MIDI keyboard). Opting for the Kontakt player was the way to go, I think, and it's the direction I'm headed in for my upcoming libraries (as opposed to a Kontakt 5 unprotected release).

I wonder how well those "pay as much as you think it's worth" promotions do. I personally think it's probably a loss-leader generated by the marketing department, but if a former pirate-user kicks in $5 for your product, that's still $5 more than you WOULD have gotten out of him, so ... 

I dunno ... it's a very complex problem!!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 5, 2012)

My pet peeve on this issue is when people who make, say, more than 30-40K a year from music, be it composing, playing, teaching, end up with pirated software on their computers. Sorry, there's no excuse. You're a pro - act like one. Oh, and same goes for mp3s.


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## midphase (Apr 5, 2012)

I agree with you Ned, and frankly what I am seeing from my peers follows this logic.

The problem is that for artists and creatives in general, reaching that $30k-$40k (even in Canadian dollars) range is turning out to be a long road.

I was having a conversation with a developer friend of mine about Photoshop. Now, how many here have used Photoshop? My guess is a pretty decent number of people. How many have purchased Photoshop at the $700 that Adobe charges for it? My guess would be not as many. Part of that problem I think is that whether you are a professional graphic artist, or a penniless musician who wants to create fliers for his band, you are paying the same exact price (educational discount aside). I've long advocated a system of pricing tiers, and while educational discounts are offered by many developers, this doesn't address the hobbyist/amateur market. Developers hate the idea because it's difficult for them to police and monitor who is doing what, but IMHO it would ultimately be in their own best interest to offer a tiered pricing structure.

Lastly, I will say this. The cloud will play a huge role in offering developers the ultimate copy protection. We're about to see this put in practice by Adobe this Summer, and game console developers in the next couple of years. If I was a sample developer, I would be following very closely what Adobe is doing. Think about sample developers offering a subscription based service, someone like East West is particularly well set up for something of this sort. Consider being able to pay a monthly fee to have access to the entire suite of Quantum Leap products. When you're working a lot this is well worth it, during dry times just let the subscription expire and renew when the work comes back!


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## Mike Greene (Apr 5, 2012)

MacQ @ Thu Apr 05 said:


> The sales problem might have had more to do with the fact that drums are one of the most ubiquitously sampled things, rather than because of piracy . . .


Yes, but my point was that whether drums have been overdone or not, it would appear that thousands of people _have_ Acoustic Kits and apparently thought it worthwhile enough to put on their hard drives, yet only 120 people paid for it, even though it's fairly low priced.

Don't get me wrong, Acoustic Kits was mostly just something I wanted for myself. I decided to make a commercial library out of it mostly to work out the kinks as a "developer" before I released Realivox. So I'm not upset about the low sales. I just mentioned it here because I think it's a good illustration that piracy still happens in a big way even when something is priced fairly.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 5, 2012)

midphase @ Thu Apr 05 said:


> I've long advocated a system of pricing tiers.


I like this idea a lot. I have no idea how it could be accurately implemented, but it would be a great system, because I do feel bad that some people simply can't afford various products.

At the same time, with some things, there's a certain amount of professional exclusivity that comes into play as well. In my own case with Realivox, I actually *don't* want everyone in the world to have this, partly because I think it's fair that people who pay should have a competitive advantage of using sounds that no one else has.

But also, since these are real voices, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of them being used everywhere with little compensation (I pay a royalty to the singers.) In other words, sample libraries take away gigs from live singers/players (Patty made a lot of money to sing that Sleeper Cell theme that I can now play on a keyboard,) so I don't want to totally open the floodgates on that. Yeah, I know I'm walking a fine line of contradiction here, but I get a lot of dirty looks from singers when they hear about what I'm doing, so for me at least, this isn't all just about maximizing profits.


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## Stephen_Gunter (Apr 5, 2012)

But with a lot of these sample libraries it creates an endless cycle.

You need money to buy these libraries, to make the money you need to sell your music. to sell your music you need it made with the best libraries, that you can't afford. and this can be so frustrating.

I'm in college right now, and i'm already in debt, and even with student discount's a lot of these libraries are barely affordable.


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## MacQ (Apr 5, 2012)

Stephen_Gunter @ Thu Apr 05 said:


> But with a lot of these sample libraries it creates an endless cycle.
> 
> You need money to buy these libraries, to make the money you need to sell your music. to sell your music you need it made with the best libraries, that you can't afford. and this can be so frustrating.
> 
> I'm in college right now, and i'm already in debt, and even with student discount's a lot of these libraries are barely affordable.



Dude, tell me about it. I racked up like $12,000 in credit card bills as a 21-year-old buying libraries. Not to mention the countless thousands I spent buying computers and sample slaves. When I got married I had to lock that up pretty quick, but thankfully I haven't felt nearly as impulsive about buying things as I used to be. I read somewhere recently that male impulsiveness fades with age, and certainly financial realities helped to put things in focus for me!

Anyway, I think the argument of requiring the BEST libraries at the HIGHEST price is becoming more and more limp every day. The kinds of things you can do with a few simple libraries and a mountain of FX processing ... it boggles. Remember, professionals still wrote music (successfully) with computers 20+ years ago. Just because it's affordable to everyone now doesn't mean you can't ALSO creatively exploit the technology.

The problem is that "fashion" hasn't changed. In this game NEWER is almost invariably BETTER. But how many damn types of "violin legato with repetitions" do you need? Are your musical ideas dormant or choked out because your instruments aren't RRx10? I think we're edging towards the absurd with every new release. Just because hard disk space is cheap doesn't mean we should be lavishing it on unnecessary samples that don't enhance the emotional value of the music a single bit in most cases.

You can run a TIGHT rig with older libraries. Hell, you can have a giant previous-generation orchestral template running on a single rig! EWQL Symphonic Orchestra running in Kontakt, for example, with only one microphone position (because let's face it, you so rarely NEED more with the availability of so many inexpensive reverb/IR solutions). You can crank out a LOT of amazing music with even just an orchestral set-up like that. The key isn't in the playability. It's in the musical expressiveness of the programmer (who's usually also the composer). Ride those CC's! Thomas J killed it with OLD libraries, and you can too!

~Stu


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## NYC Composer (Apr 5, 2012)

Stephen_Gunter @ Thu Apr 05 said:


> But with a lot of these sample libraries it creates an endless cycle.
> 
> You need money to buy these libraries, to make the money you need to sell your music. to sell your music you need it made with the best libraries, that you can't afford. and this can be so frustrating.
> 
> I'm in college right now, and i'm already in debt, and even with student discount's a lot of these libraries are barely affordable.



So your premise is that you can't afford them, yet you still want them to be able to compose with them, so it should be okay for you to use them illegally?


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## NYC Composer (Apr 5, 2012)

MacQ @ Thu Apr 05 said:


> Plus it was released for Stylus RMX, which might've hurt more than it helped. I think lots more people own Stylus RMX than actually USE Stylus RMX.



Interesting, because other than orchestral samples (and maybe even those) Stylus has been my most used plug-in over the years, and I know quite a few composers for whom that is the case as well. I do think fewer people use it as a drum machine than a loop machine, which is a pity in some ways because it has an awesome built-in library of sounds. I avidly await a refresh.

Oh-and I guess I'm one of 120, because I bought Mike's Acoustic drums! I seem to realize they were released at the ridiculous price of $20 though-is my memory incorrect?


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## NYC Composer (Apr 5, 2012)

Mike Greene @ Thu Apr 05 said:


> I've never understood the 70 years after death thing. Not that I've ever written anything significant enough that my great great great grandchildren would ever collect from anyway, but even if I did, I'd rather that my descendants get jobs and make their own way in the world.
> 
> Seems to me that offering a more realistic copyright term as a goodwill gesture could help somewhat in getting stronger enforcement laws passed.



70 years after death, well, I dunno-but in a world where upfront fees are shrinking for composers, I think we ought to be pretty careful about goodwill gestures. I'm not saying that I disagree with your basic premise. I will say that revenue sources are vanishing for musicians everywhere, be they live players, studio players or composers. Unless you're at the tippy-top, you're fighting a mentality that "music should be free!" and entering a race to the bottom that seems to have no bottom at all.

Maybe it's just me, but given the above circumstances, I don't think it's unreasonable for a copyright and its accompanying royalties to exist for the life of the content creator. After death, maybe not.


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## MacQ (Apr 5, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Thu Apr 05 said:


> I do think fewer people use it as a drum machine than a loop machine, which is a pity in some ways because it has an awesome built-in library of sounds. I avidly await a refresh.



Good point, there. I guess since I wasn't using loops it became redundant. I don't think it's really geared properly as a one-shot-sampler kind of thing at the moment. Certainly something with built-in sequencing would be great to get people in that head-space a bit more, or some other basic things like envelopes. As it is, I'd sooner turn to a Battery kit than to a Stylus RMX kit. Also, the way it's marketed, RMX is for loops first. Hopefully RMX 2 changes that! 

~Stu


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## NYC Composer (Apr 5, 2012)

MacQ @ Thu Apr 05 said:


> Stephen_Gunter @ Thu Apr 05 said:
> 
> 
> > But with a lot of these sample libraries it creates an endless cycle.
> ...



Outstanding post, and very true.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 5, 2012)

Having the biggest, newest libraries to get the kind of gigs that one gets when starting out is not as important as having a voice, having some composing and arranging chops. You can get these with EastWest Gold on sale or whatever, and lots of elbow grease. The later is free!


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## Daryl (Apr 5, 2012)

Stephen_Gunter @ Thu Apr 05 said:


> But with a lot of these sample libraries it creates an endless cycle.
> 
> You need money to buy these libraries, to make the money you need to sell your music. to sell your music you need it made with the best libraries, that you can't afford. and this can be so frustrating.
> 
> I'm in college right now, and i'm already in debt, and even with student discount's a lot of these libraries are barely affordable.


You don't need any of the expensive libraries. You're not a professional. You're a student. There are plenty of cut-down cheaper options, such as VSL Special Edition, that you could learn to use properly. Then when you need to up your game you will have the skills.

D


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## nikolas (Apr 5, 2012)

Daryl @ Thu Apr 05 said:


> Mike Greene @ Thu Apr 05 said:
> 
> 
> > I've never understood the 70 years after death thing. Not that I've ever written anything significant enough that my great great great grandchildren would ever collect from anyway, but even if I did, I'd rather that my descendants get jobs and make their own way in the world.
> ...


See, we need to put names here. It's not 'the french' it's Durand! Who accidently also owns the rights to Messiaens' works and used to own the works of Satie as well! Which also means that until the rights were released for ravel and Satie their music was rather inaccessible to the wide audience in forms of score.

In the meantime, since I work in this industry now, we do need to understand how immensly slow everything is moving in the classical world. I mean it's nothing like samples, or the computer age or anything. My business plans actually go 5 years ahead of time to make me view things a tiny bit more subjectively...

That said I find the 50/70 years after the death standing of rights to be simply ridiculous. The central argument *FOR* that was the aging composer, which is quite usual in the classical world, and their new works. Who would publish the work of the 60 year old Prokofiev if they knew that in a couple of years he would be dead and his works would be in the public domain. So they had to secure that his latest sonatas and works would still generate enough income to be printed, even after his death.

This certainly is no longer the case and we can very well say that it's pure greed and idiocy behind the aging copyright laws!

__________________________

Any argument for piracy boils down to ignorance (I didn't know... especially when growing up. If you buy a computer and are giving a few copied disks with MS Dos 3.05 ... it simply makes sense...)... and ... greed! nothing else. 

There's no excuse in using Photoshop when there's Gimp, MS Office when there's Open Office, Cubase/etc, when there's Krystal and repear at a ridiculously low price, Windows when there's Linux. 

and before you can jump ahead and tell me that the above is theoretical, I can promise you that my whole doctorate thesis was done on Open Office and all graphics that I do for Editions Musica Ferrum are being done in GIMP. I'm the rare breed that doesn't own PS!


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## Stephen_Gunter (Apr 5, 2012)

nikolas @ Fri Apr 06 said:


> Daryl @ Thu Apr 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike Greene @ Thu Apr 05 said:
> ...




But there's a reason those programs are free. They don't have the same sort of power. like a wash cloth or a towel, they'll both do the same thing, and both get you dry. But one will be way more effective as well as quicker. 

I'm not saying I believe stealing is right, I believe the companies deserve compensation for the work they do. I know Mike Patti and Mike Barry put in a lot of work when making a sample library for cinesamples, i've watched some of the videos on how they make them.

But in an industry where speed and efficacy are everything, its no wonder why so many people try to get there hands on these programs at the price they cost. 

But i'm just a junior in college, so to me $50 can seem like a lot of money at times, and $1400 for a program like symphobia just seems unattainable. so those big numbers scare me a lot more lol.


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## Stephen_Gunter (Apr 5, 2012)

Besides, isn't it all about just making the best music you possibly can, with whatever resources you have at your disposal?


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## nikolas (Apr 6, 2012)

Stephen_Gunter @ Fri Apr 06 said:


> Besides, isn't it all about just making the best music you possibly can, with whatever resources you have at your disposal?


I'll address this first. 'at your disposal' doesn't mean pirated, does it? If so... whoops.

Other than that, the power of the freeware/open source software was enough for me to get through a PhD and a publishing house. That must mean something right. Not to mention 'Blender' (which is also free last I heard) and its amazing animation capabilities.

At some point we do need to pin point exactly what we need. If you need the ultimate power of Sibelius or Finale go ahead and buy it. If not there's always lilypond and musescore to use which are free and very well behaved (despite the fact that I simply don't understand lilypond...).

Stephen: You're still a student, which means that you're probably not working deep in an industry that needs speed and precision, etc... I do and many others do, but we do get paid for what we do and we do return the money into the sample industry (and elsewhere anyhow). Of course a 16 year old doesn't have the money to get Symphobia, but he doesn't really need it either, right?


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## noiseboyuk (Apr 6, 2012)

Stephen_Gunter @ Fri Apr 06 said:


> nikolas @ Fri Apr 06 said:
> 
> 
> > no excuse in using Photoshop when there's Gimp, MS Office when there's Open Office, Cubase/etc, when there's Krystal and repear at a ridiculously low price, Windows when there's Linux.
> ...



That was a terrific post from Nikolas. Quite a few years ago I slowly was getting back into music, just discovering what had changed over the past 15 years (answer - everything). With a bit of hunting around, it was, and is, STAGGERING what is out there and is legal and free. With orchestral sounds it is harder, but even there you'll find some good stuff if you put in the effort (such as the church town project).

Meanwhile, if you spend a little, the possibilities open up much further. Personally I'd save, get Symphonic Orchestra Gold next time it has half price, and really really learn how to use it. Then to begin with, get EVERYTHING else free. Every few months you could then augment with smaller libraries that have great value, such as VSL's basic Special Edition sections.

Stephen - of COURSE there is a big difference between Symphobia or LASS and starting here. But I've heard amazing things done with SO - I remember not too long ago a fantastic string quartet performance just using it (can anyone remember where that was?) Mind blowing. I bet it took quite a long time to do, but there was no arguing with the end result. That's what good composition and spending a lot of time working with your tools can do.

This year I've been really scaling back my library purchases, I went slightly nuts last year. I took a look at what I had, went "wow", and decided that my time was making better use of what I have, rather than learning how to use a new library every fortnight, which can actually be quite distracting. 8dio's Adagio sounds terrific, but the power of LASS 2 is so extraordinary I almost feel a moral obligation to stick with LASS!

We all can be very quick to demand the best as a human right. Personally, I think it's better all round that you have to work and if necessary sacrifice to get those tools, and you'll be in a much better position to use them when you do. Turn it around, and make the decision to work with what you have and make it shine.


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## Stephen_Gunter (Apr 6, 2012)

I never said I meant pirated software. Like i said in the previous post, I do believe people get to paid for their word, regardless of whether that's making sample libraries or creating original music.

I'm paying to go to college for music so of course I don't believe all my music should be free, its a skill just like building a house for someone. 

I'm simply playing devil's advocate because i know people who pirate the software, with full intent of buying legit copies when they graduate and have the money. Because like you said, a 16 year old can't afford symphobia and doesn't need it, but a 3rd year composition student with a high proficiency in their DAW of choice could do a hell of a lot with it but still can't afford it. They're not making any money off it, they're just taking a test drive, then when the funds are there, they'll pay for them.

Just saying that there can be motives aside from greed and ignorance.

But that's why forums like this are great, you get to talk with working professionals about their thoughts and opinions, as well as occasionally get advice and critiques!


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## Stephen_Gunter (Apr 6, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Apr 06 said:


> Stephen_Gunter @ Fri Apr 06 said:
> 
> 
> > nikolas @ Fri Apr 06 said:
> ...



And i think this is a great post. I do currently own komplete 7 and plan to expand my library when i have the funds, (which could be a while since i'll be investing my money on Scott Smalley's orchestration course) and putting in the time to learn what you have just makes you better at your craft.

But i will say, i have used symphobia 2 (on a teachers rig), and its a pretty great feeling when you can create 2min of potential library music in less than an hour, and everything sounds close to professional quality without you needing to do any sort of mixing or production. But then again, there's a reason it cost $1400 :wink:


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## Daryl (Apr 6, 2012)

nikolas @ Fri Apr 06 said:


> See, we need to put names here. It's not 'the french' it's Durand! Who accidently also owns the rights to Messiaens' works and used to own the works of Satie as well! Which also means that until the rights were released for ravel and Satie their music was rather inaccessible to the wide audience in forms of score.


Yes and no. As far as I'm aware, Durand doesn't have legislative powers. :wink: 

D


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## Christian F. Perucchi (Apr 6, 2012)

Just Hear this http://media.soundonsound.com/sos/mar02/audio/headhuntertrack05.mp3 (http://media.soundonsound.com/sos/mar02 ... rack05.mp3)
Tell me what libraries are, i have a lot akai and kurzweil libraries that came with my second hand samplers, and also bought second hand gigastudio libraries whtn nobody wanted them, with scripting and conversion they can sound great.
Regards!
Christian


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## wst3 (Apr 6, 2012)

Nikolas - excellent point on open sourced tools!

I use GIMP and BLENDER because I don't make my living doing graphics (heck, I have almost zero talent for that sort of thing, but sometimes I need to fix a photo.) GIMP is a fantastic tool, not as easy to use as Photoshop I suppose, although at this point I can get around it. And I learned quite a bit about computer graphics by working my way through GIMP.

I use Open Office and MS Office. I need MS Office for the day gig, and since they provide the license I use it. I use the OO tools elsewhere, and with a couple of minor quibbles the current release is really quite capable.

I've also spent time with the open source and lower cost music production tools. I think these are somewhat further behind the pack, though if I were just starting I'm sure they'd keep me both busy and entertained! (And after 16 years using Sonar/Finale/Sound Forge and nearly that long with WaveLab I'm not keen to change<G>!)

But there are alternatives to piracy - I wish more folks recognized that!


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## germancomponist (Apr 6, 2012)

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501465_162-57408106-501465/new-copyright-center-to-target-online-piracy/?fb_ref=fbrecT&fb_source=other_multiline


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## snowleopard (Apr 6, 2012)

Didn't we discuss that to death the other week? 

As to the OP's link, the author brings up some good points. 

I've seen this movie before, so I'll be exiting the theater now.


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## Christian F. Perucchi (Apr 7, 2012)

nobody red my post :(


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 7, 2012)

I read your post, and I just listened to your musical excerpt. What do you want to know?


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## Christian F. Perucchi (Apr 7, 2012)

I wanted to show that with less you can do a lot, these excerpts are from headhunter a videogame for dreamcast and ps2, made with miroslav,peter s , and libraries dating back to the 90s akais, and sounds very well.
Check out this http://sso.mattiaswestlund.net/ free orchestral open source library, also you can use the free east west play library, and many free libraries or old giga akai libraries with very convincing results, 
What do you think of the excerpts above for example?
Regards
Christian


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## nikolas (Apr 7, 2012)

Christian the sonatina symphonic orchestra is quite cool! Thanks for linking us...

The track you did, linked above is also quite cool, and it goes to show that one can really work well with what they've got on their hands and not attempt to have eveyrthing!


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## Christian F. Perucchi (Apr 8, 2012)

Thanks Nikolas! but the demo was made by richard jacques here is the full article http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar02/a ... hunter.asp
For free libraries you have also the G-Town Church sampling project is amazing, philarmonia orchestra, berklee sampling project Iowa university instruments etc.


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