# Pitching opportunities for commercials?



## mwarsell (Jun 28, 2012)

Where does one find these? It feels like an exclusive club or something. I've searched the web now for some days but found nothing of relevance.

Thanks guys in advance.


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## Daryl (Jun 28, 2012)

mwarsell @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> Where does one find these? It feels like an exclusive club or something. I've searched the web now for some days but found nothing of relevance.
> 
> Thanks guys in advance.


In the UK there are many music agencies who are only too happy to rip you off, er offer you opportunities to pitch for ads. Just expect to receive little or no demo fee, work weekends, never get any feedback, be asked to submit many revisions, only to be told that the gig has gone to the director's pet poodle and lots more little foibles. Good luck...! :wink: 

D


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## mwarsell (Jun 28, 2012)

Right...so instead of pitching music, I should be offering directors lunches, free holidays, spa coupons and M&Ms.

Makes sense.


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## Daryl (Jun 28, 2012)

mwarsell @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> Right...so instead of pitching music, I should be offering directors lunches, free holidays, spa coupons and M&Ms.
> 
> Makes sense.


At the very least...!

Seriously though, the only realistic way to get into it is though music agencies. They already have the contacts, and most are run by composers, so you'll be given opportunities to pitch for ads where a style of music is required that they can't write themselves.

D


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 28, 2012)

It seems advertising people are more or less the same around the world. Its quite remarkable in a way.

I would try and meet directors/producers who usually have the final word. It will take you a few years and many sleepless nights before a client will ask for you directly. 

I doubt you will find anything about this on the internet. Find out the various production houses (ideally ones run by directors themselves - this may differ abroad). If the director likes your work and if his own company is producing it - its a win win situation. 

Music in advertising is a huge business in India. I know friends who make close to $400,000 a year and this is India we are talking about - its a lot of money. But in a city like Mumbai, you can spend it all!

I pay $600 monthly rent in the suburbs in Mumbai. India has over 37% of population below the international poverty line but property rates in Mumbai are one of the highest in the world. Given, it is a coastal city with over 14 million people, it is still quite high.

I am sure there is some sort of database available (like a directory) of advertising production houses who produce the commercials. Also, look out for directors and hope for the best.

But yes, as Daryl mentioned - be ready to work for borderline free and if the film bombs - they are always looking for a scapegoat! 

Forget weekends - I have once got a call at 2 am to fix a commercial that had to make it to the client's presentation the next morning. I was younger and $500 for a few hours of work wasnt the worst for me!

Advertising pays well but the way its run here in India, it can consume your entire life and leave little creativity over the years unless you branch out into other things which is what I have done.


Best,

Tanuj.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 28, 2012)

I agree with Daryl here. Excellent point.

I started out like that myself in a way. We dont have music production houses in India but I always got called in by other composers to do orchestral mock-ups as this is something most people are not very good at here in Mumbai. 

We also dont have any orchestras so I fit right in. You can start like that and then eventually someone will need music which is of good quality but wont have the budget to hire a top composer. This is how it has worked for me.

Its the same with films as well. I have just signed my first feature film as composer because they could not afford the other guy but I used to work for him and he reccomended me!

Best,

Tanuj.


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## midphase (Jun 28, 2012)

vibrato @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> It seems advertising people are more or less the same around the world. Its quite remarkable in a way.
> 
> I would try and meet directors/producers who usually have the final word. It will take you a few years and many sleepless nights before a client will ask for you directly.



Directors in advertising are not the same as in films. They generally don't have as much power, the creative directors at the agency generally dictate how the spot is executed and the director is just a hired gun in most cases. You must not watch Mad Men very much. 




vibrato @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> I doubt you will find anything about this on the internet. Find out the various production houses (ideally ones run by directors themselves - this may differ abroad). If the director likes your work and if his own company is producing it - its a win win situation.



See above. Maybe in India is different?



vibrato @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> Music in advertising is a huge business in India. I know friends who make close to $400,000 a year and this is India we are talking about - its a lot of money. But in a city like Mumbai, you can spend it all! I pay $600 monthly rent in the suburbs in Mumbai.



I have no earthly idea why then you would possibly want to move to the USA. Sounds like I should be moving to India!

I have had music in several national TV ads and I can assure you that the money is not in that range over here. Most advertising houses here work on a cattle-call system where they issue a request and tons of suckers...sorry...composers work their asses for (usually the request comes in right about 5pm Friday and is due first thing on Monday).

Daryl is spot on, usually the feedback and direction is generic, confusing and conflicting at best and for the many composers who submit a number of tracks and sometimes revisions, is truly a crapshoot. Sometimes (not always, and certainly not to everyone who submits) the agency will pay a nominal fee in the $100/200 range for the submission. That is typically not per/track, so submitting 1 track or 10 yields the same amount.

At the higher levels (good luck getting there, even if you've scored some hits), things get a bit better...but even those composers who are successful find ad agencies to make for difficult and finicky clients. Ad clients expect to be treated with white gloves, to be wined and dined and be given box seats at the Lakers games. To compound with the high-maintenance quality of such clients, they also have a very high turnover rate. What that means is that the person at the agency that you worked so hard to become best buddies with is probably not going to be working there next year, and depending on what agency they move to next and what they end up doing there...they might not be able to continue to use you. "Loyalty" in the advertising world is only used in conjunction with the word "Brand."

Not trying to come across as someone who always craps on people's dreams, but I do believe in making educated choices in life, and being able to look being the initial glitz that many seem to portray for several different reasons and other personal interests. As someone who has spent a great deal of time dealing with the advertising world I speak from my own personal experience...but I know that others' experiences might differ substantially.


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## Stephen Baysted (Jun 28, 2012)

Daryl and Kays are absolutely right.


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## rgames (Jun 28, 2012)

midphase @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> Daryl is spot on, usually the feedback and direction is generic, confusing and conflicting at best and for the many composers who submit a number of tracks and sometimes revisions, is truly a crapshoot.


This is one of my primary frustrations with the process.

These guys often have no idea what they want and when they do, they don't know how to describe it. I've pitched for a number of ads and have been dumbfounded when I finally heard the ad show up on TV. The music often has absolutely no relation to what they asked you to pitch. It's not just ads, either - same thing with pitching for trailers.

They do it because they can... there are too many composers willing to put up with that BS.

rgames


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## Mike Greene (Jun 28, 2012)

Yes to everything Kays said. It's rare for a director to be involved beyond the actual shoot. Most have nothing at all to do with music or post production. There are exceptions, but that's the general rule.

Personally, I wouldn't pitch in a cattle call situation for an ad for the reasons Kays and Richard gave. You're often getting bad instructions, you're competing against a zillion other people, and this is compounded by the fact that there is often someone (not you) who has an inside track on the gig.

Then again, I guess I'm kind of curmudgeonly with this. I remember when pitches were typically just between three composers. And each one got a $1,500 demo fee. And even with the demo fee, I _complained_ that I had to compete! Ah, those were the days . . .


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 28, 2012)

Over here in Mumbai, ad directors behave the same as film directors. They are involved right till the end almost always. This because of two reasons:

1. Either the director works for a production house permanently

2. The director works as a freelancer in which case, he has his own production company and so is involved right till the end. 

Ad agencies and the client of course always have the final - final word but it also depends on who the director or producer is. 

The basic nature of writing music for commercials is the same - the brief's are weird. In Mumbai, we knock off a commercial in just one day in 90% of the time. 

Compose - Produce - Mixed with singing, instruments performed and voice over done. 

After that, clients may come back with changes (almost always do) and ask you to change some things or do a new track.

At this point, two things happen:

1. You do a few changes for free. After this point, you charge per day. This fee ranges from $300 - $2000 depending on who the composer is. There are no national per minute rates.

2. It they completely want a new track - you charge again for a fresh track unless, this is negotiated before hand - rarely. So, you charge for a second track.

But this is not the end of it.

There is other income to be made in case of the following:

1. Buyout - They license your music for a particular duration - from 1 year to perpetuity. 

For example, I give out rates for a 1 year buyout - a 2 year and a perpetuity. 

Perpetuity ranges again from $3000 - $40,000 depending on who the composer is. The more top range - more you pay.

2. Edits - any edit they make of the master commercial - we charge 50% of original cost.

3. Languages - There are more than 10 important languages in different regions in India. These are very different from each other. So per each language edit - the composer gets a flat rate.

So, one could end up making quite a lot on just a single commercial. And most active ad composers are booked for anywhere between 15 - 25 days a month. And because its such a fast moving industry - people charge by the day because they are already booked for the next 10 days. 

Of course, the clients bring briefs from Hans Zimmer to Coldplay. Each day is a new track and it could be anything. And you have to deliver in one day in 90% of the cases.

The hardest thing in India is target group. India is the 7th largest country with over 200 languages spoken and at least 10-15 major languages in big cities. This also means, extremely different cultures and practices. There is also a huge divide in terms of income between the rich and the poor. 

So all clients want to make commercials that EVERYONE can understand even though they may not be in the existing target group. 

This is incredibly hard to do and in fact, I believe in most cases impossible. 

Languages and practices in India can change every few hundred kilometers.

I am sorry to have gone about this in detail because I suspect a lot of is not applicable to anyone else on this forum but I thought it will give you guys a nice contrast to see what goes on on the other side of the world.

I have done jobs where I have not been paid and producers have disappeared. Every year, I have a certain amount of bad debt. Almost like a professional hazard!

Its messy, unfair and very competitive. If you dont do it - someone else will. But in the end, if you keep your cool and if your music is really good, I think things come around. But you have to be patient in advertising as everyone has an opinion - even the director's wife.


Best,

Tanuj.


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## midphase (Jun 28, 2012)

As I said Tanuj, sounds like you have a good thing going over there. Don't believe for a second that the grass is any greener on this side of the pond!

I also think that with all the films being produced in India, there is probably a better market for scoring work too.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 29, 2012)

Kays, 

Since we last exchanged e-mails, a lot has changed for me. I have been very fortunate to have a steady stream of work and of high standards as such. 

And in these months I have realised that I aspire to write good music and learn along the way, wherever I am. Yes, there is a ton of work in Mumbai but most of it is not of any interest to me. I have said no to many jobs. There is lots of scoring work but budgets for scoring are very small and they dont really give a damn. This also creates an opportunity to change that. There is a new wave of composers in Bollywood that are trying to change the scene. Hopefully, I can be a small part of that at some point.

However, most music that I have come to appreciate and love over the years, the bulk of it has been written by European or American composers and I deeply admire the sincerety, humility, talent and technical finnesse with which these composers approach their work out there. 

But I have also realised that I am too far away from those standards as a composer and have much to learn. I am one of the guys, who aspires to write real orchestral music but has no training in music theory/notation and uses the sample based tools to simulate what real orchestral music sounds like. But even if performed live, it will never match the mastery of countless composers who write really well.

I just hope, I can continue to write what I want to write and hopefully get paid for it!


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## mwarsell (Jun 30, 2012)

Guys, you rock, thanks for all these comments. Invaluable. About pitching and 'they can't desribe what they want' I have a good example. Some company wanted a sound logo. They put up a contest for $1k - the winner would get the gig. They asked for some organ stuff. I realized immediately that organ is not the way to go at all. I gave them some low strings and boom won the contest/pitch out of 800+ contestants. Others complained that I didn't follow the brief, how can I win etc..lol.


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