# French Horns



## Rob (Aug 20, 2008)

Here is a brief march for french horns I've written today... I'd really like to learn to get that beautiful section sound we hear in good recordings. It has a nobility and elegance I'm alas very far from :oops: . If you have advices to offer they'd be very welcome, thank you


http://www.robertosoggetti.com/FrenchMarch.mp3

instrumentation here is vsl solo and ensemble (4) horns plus 4 wivi horns

EDIT: changed reverb and spacialization, thanks to kind comments... same link


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## JohnG (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: Frensh Horns*

There is definitely a little bit of "whoops, a synth" in here once in a while, but honestly it sounds pretty good to me.

Overall, I think it's a lot easier with samples to succeed in imitating "Lord of the Rings" -- i.e. a big, huge sound with full orchestra -- than it is to mock up convincing small-ensemble / chamber ensemble, as you are attempting. In fact, the smaller the ensemble, the more the live players contribute (in my experience at least).

This is even more true with "funny." It is extremely hard to be funny with samples alone.

Last, I suppose I am personally just not sold on the sound of WIVI if you are trying to make something sound as though it's been played with real instruments. WIVI, to me, iò{¬   ‚¶{¬   ‚¶{¬   ‚¶{¬   ‚¶{¬   ‚¶{¬   ‚¶{¬   ‚¶{¬   ‚¶{¬   ‚¶{¬   ‚¶{¬   ‚¶{¬   ‚¶{¬   ‚¶{¬   ‚¶{¬   ‚¶{¬   ‚¶{¬   ‚¶{¬   ‚¶{¬   ‚¶ {¬   ‚¶!{¬   ‚¶"{¬   ‚¶#{¬   ‚¶${¬   ‚¶%{¬   ‚¶&{¬   ‚¶'{¬   ‚¶({¬   ‚¶){¬   ‚¶*{¬   ‚¶+{¬   ‚¶,{¬   ‚¶-{¬   ‚¶.{¬   ‚¶/{¬   ‚¶0{¬   ‚¶1{¬   ‚¶2{¬   ‚¶3{¬   ‚¶4{¬   ‚¶5{¬   ‚¶6{¬   ‚¶7{¬   ‚¶8{¬   ‚¶9{¬


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## re-peat (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: Frensh Horns*

Roberto,

I think you've chosen the wrong reverb: the reverb sounds completely detached from the sounds that generate it. It creates neither space nor depth. Even though the tail suggests a fairly large space, the illusion remains unconvincing, because the direct signal of the horns doesn't seem to live in that same space.
I would definitely pick a different reverb first - and one that has richer early reflections -, but also add a second (shorter) reverb to increase the complexity of the combined reverbation. (Even a 'subliminal' one-slap-delay might be quite effective here.)
Another thing that needs attention is the stereo spread of your reverb. At the moment the direct signal sounds much wider than the reverb it is supposed to generate, and that doesn't sound right. (Balance is a bit off as well, with the reverb leaning slightly over to the right, but that's a minor thing.)

You might think: what has all that got to do with the sound of the horns? Well, rather a lot. Good reverb - and I mean: _really good_ - is a matter of life and death with modeled and sampled instruments which are all born barely alive.

The second problem is one of blending, I think. Real horns blend (or gel) naturally and effortlessly into one homogenous, living ensemble sound. These simulated horns however don't. It's an ensemble of sounds which are forced to live together, but refuse to make any effort whatsoever to make it a success. I'm not sure if there's a solution for this though. I don't think so. Not with this combination of sounds anyway and especially with the ensemble as exposed as it is here. But again: a better reverb will surely help.


Another a great piece, Rob! And the programming is, once again, excellent: lots of subtle detail and everything nicely tweaked to deliver the music in the best possible, most expressive way.
Whenever you have a great day composing, I have a great day listening! Thanks very much.

_


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## Rob (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: Frensh Horns*



re-peat @ 20th August 2008 said:


> Roberto,
> 
> I think you've chosen the wrong reverb: the reverb sounds completely detached from the sounds that generate it. It creates neither space nor depth. Even though the tail suggests a fairly large space, the illusion remains unconvincing, because the direct signal of the horns doesn't seem to live in that same space.
> I would definitely pick a different reverb first - and one that has richer early reflections -, but also add a second (shorter) reverb to increase the complexity of the combined reverbation. (Even a 'subliminal' one-slap-delay might be quite effective here.)
> Another thing that needs attention is the stereo spread of your reverb. At the moment the direct signal sounds much wider than the reverb it is supposed to generate, and that doesn't sound right. (Balance is a bit off as well, with the reverb leaning slightly over to the right, but that's a minor thing.)



Piet, my friend (may I call you so?) you are right, I haven't paid much attention to the reverb setting, this is the "large symphony hall" preset in UAD Dreamverb, maybe I should use Wizooverb instead... I'll work on the reverb anyway, it's also an interesting and amusing thing to do  



> The second problem is one of blending, I think. Real horns blend (or gel) naturally and effortlessly into one homogenous, living ensemble sound. These simulated horns however don't. It's an ensemble of sounds which are forced to live together, but refuse to make any effort whatsoever to make it a success. I'm not sure if there's a solution for this though. I don't think so. Not with this combination of sounds anyway and especially with the ensemble as exposed as it is here.



agreed, I'll try and concentrate on this aspect...




> Another a great piece, Rob! And the programming is, once again, excellent: lots of subtle detail and everything nicely tweaked to deliver the music in the best possible, most expressive way.
> Whenever you have a great day composing, I have a great day listening! Thanks very much.



thank you, Piet, well my wife in on vacation for a few days, and I can dedicate myself fully to my favourite activities, i.e. playing piano and composing. It's always a honour having a listener like you, thank you very much again

Roberto


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## Rob (Aug 21, 2008)

madbulk @ 21st August 2008 said:


> I'm gonna come back and read those comments again tomorrow when I'm more awake. Roberto, I always enjoy your stuff.



Brian, thank you 



> And John and Piet, really, if you don't mind... you guys are not only talented but invariably kind, thoughtful and generous and super emblematic of the best of this community. I just had to say.



my feeling exactly


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## Rob (Aug 21, 2008)

Christian Marcussen @ 21st August 2008 said:


> Hi Rob.
> 
> I did not hear the first version. But the current one sounds quite nice to my ears. I'm curious what you are doing with the different horns - meaning what do you use VSL for and what do you use WIVI for - simply bland them or?



hi Christian, the piece is written in 4 parts harmony, in my idea four doubled horns, 8 horns total. Thus vsl and wivi are just doubling the same lines... anyway, to avoid phasing issues in vsl, I had to use, for the melody and bass parts, the 4horns ensemble patch. The two middle are solo horn patches...
thanks for the listen


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## Rob (Aug 21, 2008)

Mahlon @ 21st August 2008 said:


> Hey Rob,
> My ear is not as tuned to horn playing in this small-ish setting as it is to some of the other sections of the orch. But just to say, I think it sounds very authentic and passable as a real section. I mean, I think the critical, really trained ear may hear the 'samples', but certainly, this layman can't hear it. They sound in a real room to me with live players for the most part.
> 
> Besides that, I love your writing. It's just great and natural.
> ...



thank you very much, Mahlon... compared to the former version, I think the mix is now much better. I have to thank re-peat for putting his finger on reverb and ambient...


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## Rob (Aug 21, 2008)

Dave Connor @ 21st August 2008 said:


> Very charming music. I's not easy to do that kind of thing and seperates the men from the boys.



Hey, that's a nice thing to say, thank you, Dave!


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## JohnG (Aug 21, 2008)

That does sound 10x better. Well done -- I am always amazed, even though I suppose one shouldn't be, at what a difference improved reverb makes.

I feel much more now as though I am just listening to the music, not the execution. It is an enormous improvement.


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## Mahlon (Aug 21, 2008)

Rob, would you be willing to give any tips on your WIVI horn settings. I've got WIVI, but I admit, I've never been able to get them to sound as you do. Also, I've been hesitant to try too much because I use VSL mostly. I believe you said that you do use a breath controller. Surely you tweak after the take, right?

Some of the subtle settings in WIVI horns are beyond my getting a good grasp of. Are there any obvious settings that seem mandatory to get a good sound?

Or do you use them in default config and just spend enormous time tweaking? :| 
Thanks,
Mahlon


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## Stephen Baysted (Aug 22, 2008)

Great little march with some unexpected harmonic twists and turns - I like the composition very much; think you could have possibly used the horn's lower register more liberally and I also I think you could expand this into a piece for a bigger brass ensemble. But this is nice work.

How many horns have you got here? I'm thinking you have a solo one, 4 VSLs and 4 WIVIs, that's a lot of horns, especially since with divisi you're sometimes using perhaps 16 or 17 horns simultaneously! Is that really what you intended? And that's possibly my biggest area of criticism. Why not assign solo horns to each part, and experiment with slight detuning, variations in attack, release and velocity? IMO you've captured lots of idiomatic elements of the horn, only to undermine the good work, by not thinking about divisi. Ensemble writing is generally more intimate, intricate and involved than broad brush orchestral sectional writing. 

Cheers and thanks again for sharing.


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## Rob (Aug 23, 2008)

rayinstirling @ 22nd August 2008 said:


> Hi Roberto,
> 
> 
> We've had these discussions on numerous occasions about the right amount of reverb needed, you, always erring on less being more :lol:



actually, I must admit sometimes reverb is essential  ... specially these cases where it has to create the illusion of space




> PS. Am I the only one who leaves the original version up for comparison with any edits following reviews. I seldom download and keep cues presented in the forum so I can't really A/B test the results of changes to assist my education in these things.



you're right, I'm too eager to supply the better version and forget about the previous one... thank you for your always kind attitude with me, Ray


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## Rob (Aug 23, 2008)

re-peat @ 22nd August 2008 said:


> The piano I used in the RobRePhrased piece is Garritan's Authorized Steinway.
> 
> _



I must say, in a whisper, that in your hands it sounds magnificent...


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## Rob (Aug 23, 2008)

Rousseau @ 22nd August 2008 said:


> How many horns have you got here? I'm thinking you have a solo one, 4 VSLs and 4 WIVIs, that's a lot of horns, especially since with divisi you're sometimes using perhaps 16 or 17 horns simultaneously! Is that really what you intended? And that's possibly my biggest area of criticism. Why not assign solo horns to each part, and experiment with slight detuning, variations in attack, release and velocity? IMO you've captured lots of idiomatic elements of the horn, only to undermine the good work, by not thinking about divisi. Ensemble writing is generally more intimate, intricate and involved than broad brush orchestral sectional writing.
> 
> Cheers and thanks again for sharing.



Rousseau, thank you very much... I wanted to use a double quartet at first, I mean 4 solo horns wivi and four solo horns vsl, but when the parts hit the same note a phasing issue occurred, so I had to use in two parts the ensemble patch. So, 14 horns total...


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## Coqui (Aug 23, 2008)

Carina, rob.

Sempre DX7 + BC3?

Ciao,
Roberto



--> in English, bitte! <--

Very cute piece, Rob.

Still on Yamaha DX7 + BC3?

Hi.


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## Rob (Aug 24, 2008)

Mahlon @ 22nd August 2008 said:


> Rob, would you be willing to give any tips on your WIVI horn settings. I've got WIVI, but I admit, I've never been able to get them to sound as you do. Also, I've been hesitant to try too much because I use VSL mostly. I believe you said that you do use a breath controller. Surely you tweak after the take, right?
> 
> Some of the subtle settings in WIVI horns are beyond my getting a good grasp of. Are there any obvious settings that seem mandatory to get a good sound?
> 
> ...



hi Mahlon, I've PM you...


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## Rob (Aug 24, 2008)

Coqui @ 23rd August 2008 said:


> Carina, rob.
> 
> Sempre DX7 + BC3?
> 
> ...



ciao Roberto (ma coqui sarebbe a dire "cazzuto" in francese? :D ), si, sempre dx7 e bc3... grazie, ciao


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## Coqui (Aug 24, 2008)

Rob @ Sun Aug 24 said:


> (ma coqui sarebbe a dire "cazzuto" in francese? :D )


Mi giunge nuova! Fino a questo momento per me era una simpatica rana di Porto Rico ... 0oD

Svenandomi, mi son fatto la collezione quasi completa degli Appassionata Strings della Vienna (mi manca solo la Extended Collection degli Appassionata II): costano un botto ma ne vale la pena.

Prima o poi li userò anche.

:roll:


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