# Do some keys really sound "bad" in orchestral music?



## keman (Mar 16, 2015)

So, I'm writing a film cue that will be recorded in 2 weeks. The piece is in D minor, however, I tried transposing it to Eb minor and I prefer that a lot more.

I know the general tone will be a bit darker, but is there actually a big difference, or is it rather subtle?


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## David Story (Mar 16, 2015)

D minor will sound good with a good orchestra. Eb minor will sound poor with a good orchestra, you'll need top studio players. Strings especially will sound different and struggle because _physics_.
This is different than the character of keys, it's a result of how physical instruments are made.


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## Blackster (Mar 16, 2015)

Also brasses sound way better in their natural keys, like Bb major or F major (which is D minor anyway). If you are using samples you probably won't run into any issues when changing keys. But with real players you will hear the differences for sure. Since certain keys are more natural on specific instruments, you probably will get a better performance in those keys.


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## Jdiggity1 (Mar 16, 2015)

It's not unheard of to 'pitch correct' the recording up or down a few cents for effect.


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## Hannes_F (Mar 16, 2015)

David Story @ Tue Mar 17 said:


> D minor will sound good with a good orchestra. Eb minor will sound poor with a good orchestra, you'll need top studio players. Strings especially will sound different and struggle because _physics_.
> This is different than the character of keys, it's a result of how physical instruments are made.



While there is some truth in this there is way way too much D minor in film music and I would prefer Eb minor now and then even if it is a slightly bigger effort for us string players.

Every key has its own character. The question is why the OP wants Eb minor - because of its specific character or because it is one semitone higher and therefore seems to be brighter? The latter will be more the case with samples than with live players.


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## stonzthro (Mar 16, 2015)

Eb minor will sound poor with a good orchestra? Not so sure about that - poor with a mediocre orchestra - maybe not fantastic with a good (but not great) orchestra, but I wouldn't say poor. I mean, how many jazz tunes are in E flat minor - does the bass always sound out of tune? So somehow one person can get it right but not several?

But I'm a string player and may be a little biased against that generalization. 

I Do agree that physics plays a part in the struggle - that is certainly true - but it isn't an impossible struggle in the least.


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## José Herring (Mar 16, 2015)

David Story @ Mon Mar 16 said:


> D minor will sound good with a good orchestra. Eb minor will sound poor with a good orchestra, you'll need top studio players. Strings especially will sound different and struggle because _physics_.
> This is different than the character of keys, it's a result of how physical instruments are made.



ummmm...unfortunately no.

Dminor runs the risk of string players hitting many open strings. Often times if I want a more covered sound, I'll switch a key up or down a half step so that the string players have to finger every note. So instead of dmajor then use eflat major, ect....

The guy that threw out that blurb about the brass is also incorrect. The valves were invented to correct that problem and they do very well. Can't say that the brass sound terrible or would have sounded better if Prokofiev had written his 6th symphony in the key of dminor instead of eflat minor. That's just dumb.

The only real consideration if the orchestra is professional, they don't even have to be the top pros, just pro enough, is whether they are reading or not. You'll need a bit more rehearsal time for people to run around in the key of eflat minor if the parts are involved. But, as long as the orchestra is above student level, they'll get it fast enough.

But the only reason I mentioned anything David is it is far too scathing of a comment upon any player above the student level to say that you need top players to play decently in eflat minor. And, the comment about "the physics" without mentioning what physics is misleading. The well tempered scale insures that all instrument can play equally well in all keys. It may be a little more work in keys like Gflat major or eflat minor, but the composers shouldn't worry about that shit. :lol:


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## José Herring (Mar 16, 2015)

Listening to Prokofiev symphony number 6 in eflat minor. Sounds great!


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## keman (Mar 17, 2015)

The orchestra players are professionals, but they're session players and they will be sight-reading. I won't have much time, but the music is rather repetitive (picture the typical Hollywood spiccato stuff), so getting their parts right won't be a problem.

The reason why I want Eb minor is indeed because it's a semitone higher and sounds brighter with samples. (and also, I'm sick of hearing D minor everywhere)


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## Goran (Mar 17, 2015)

Reply to the thread title: NO. There is no such thing. How orchestral music in any key will sound depends primarily on:

a) orchestration

b) playing (skilled players can always compensate for any differences in open strings/difficult-less difficult keys etc.) 

Bear in mind that if this were the case, a considerable portion of (some of the best) symphonic music from Beethoven onwards would sound "bad".


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## Hannes_F (Mar 17, 2015)

keman @ Tue Mar 17 said:


> The orchestra players are professionals, but they're session players and they will be sight-reading. I won't have much time, but the music is rather repetitive (picture the typical Hollywood spiccato stuff), so getting their parts right won't be a problem.
> 
> The reason why I want Eb minor is indeed because it's a semitone higher and sounds brighter with samples. (and also, I'm sick of hearing D minor everywhere)



That is what I thought. You could consider E minor. Eb minor can sound more tiled (softer) with live strings than D minor. With good players Eb minor will sound good but its character is more on the melancholic side.


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## windshore (Mar 17, 2015)

I agree with most of the comments here. I would consider E minor as well.

Eb minor even for woodwinds tends to be technically more challenging... but it's not a huge consideration in general.

(Eb minor for jazz works well (esp. a ballad) because Bb instruments are in F minor and even better Eb instruments are in C minor. That makes a nice key for an alto sax ballad.)


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## José Herring (Mar 17, 2015)

keman @ Tue Mar 17 said:


> The orchestra players are professionals, but they're session players and they will be sight-reading. I won't have much time, but the music is rather repetitive (picture the typical Hollywood spiccato stuff), so getting their parts right won't be a problem.
> 
> The reason why I want Eb minor is indeed because it's a semitone higher and sounds brighter with samples. (and also, I'm sick of hearing D minor everywhere)



If that's what you are using as your basis, you're in for a rude awakening. :lol: 

dminor in a sampled orchestra isn't going to sound like dminor in a real orchestra. Just as eflat minor in a real orchestra isn't going to sound "brighter" than dminor, just because it's up a 1/2 step. Maybe up a 3rd. But at that close of an interval there are many other factors to consider all of which have been mentioned by myself and the other talented players contributing.


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## David Story (Mar 18, 2015)

Ask a string and a wind player to look at your work, get an idea of what you've really done. Better, ask them to play through and get the live player in your imagination.


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## germancomponist (Mar 18, 2015)

I haven't read through all messages here but I want to mention another thing:
Listen in different keys and watch inside you, how do you feel the different keys?

Very interesting, if you ask me. _(O.k., you have to arrange some instruments different here and there notewise ...)_


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## Living Fossil (Mar 19, 2015)

germancomponist @ Wed Mar 18 said:


> I haven't read through all messages here but I want to mention another thing:
> Listen in different keys and watch inside you, how do you feel the different keys?



This has only any sense if it's done in a blind test.
And repeated for many, many times over a long time.

...and while there are keys that are easier to play, even good amateurs have to be able to play in every key. 
If you write an easy piece for a seven year old child who just started playing the violin, it's of course a good idea to use g, d, a, e.
But i would totally refuse even to talk to a string player who explains me that "eb-minor is no good key for strings." The fact that in some keys you have some resonances because of the tuning may suit lots of music, but is totally irrelevant in other music. And there is music where you just don't want them.

And once more: using a key is extremely relative. You can use a rather basic harmonic language or one with lots of modulations and alterations.


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## Rodney Money (Mar 25, 2015)

I personally think strings sound right at home in E flat minor in my most humble of opinions. The first minute is a cello solo: http://youtu.be/h6avqJDRiYY in that darn key.
~Rod


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## keman (Mar 25, 2015)

germancomponist @ Wed Mar 18 said:


> I haven't read through all messages here but I want to mention another thing:
> Listen in different keys and watch inside you, how do you feel the different keys?
> 
> Very interesting, if you ask me. _(O.k., you have to arrange some instruments different here and there notewise ...)_



I have semi perfect pitch (only on some instruments), and although I don't usually blindly recognise the key of an orchestral piece, for some reason I can't stand D or E minor when put in comparison to a darker key like Eb or C# minor.

My question does indeed mainly refer to the string resonances, as I'm working with paid professionals and I'm very sure they are able to easily play that same music in both Eb and D minor.
I always hear that having a lot of resonating open strings is a good thing, but I've never had the chance to hear a direct comparison, and I'm wondering if the difference is really as big as people say.
As a guitarist, I prefer the sound of B minor or C# minor a lot more to the one of E minor, it's darker and more quiet, but more definite.

But the actual conclusion is, that piece dropped out and won't be recorded. The new cue is in B major. :D


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## Shubus (Mar 26, 2015)

Resonating open strings can be a good thing or a bad thing. For instance, if you're writing a country barn dance then those open strings will rightly be appropriate. On romantic scores maybe not, as string players cannot apply vibrato to open strings. It's our job as composers to specify where possible to use an open strings otherwise by default the players will tend to use a stopped string.


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