# Control Surface Recommendations



## muziksculp (Mar 8, 2011)

Hi,

I'm unable to decide on which control surface to add to my project-studio. My main DAW is Cubase 5, soon moving to (Cubase 6), I use it on both Mac and PC systems. 

Control Surfaces I'm considering :

1. Euphonix MC-Control (Version 2)
2. Mackie Control Universal Pro

I also looked into the new SSL-Neucleus, but it is out of my price range for a pure control surface, since it offers 2-mic pres, and is an Audio Interface, plus other bells and whistles I don't really need. 

The Euphonix MC-Control (V2) is the one I'm leaning towards, but... Since EUCON uses the Ethernet network, I was wondering if it will interfere with transfer of Audio & Midi data, since I will have two slave PCs that will be networked via Vienna Ensemble Pro ? 

I have a feeling that EUCON might cause some issues, stability/connectivity with VE Pro network. But, then again I'm not sure about this. 

The Mackie Control Universal Pro is my second option, it's a kind of bulky for my taste, I watched a YOUTUBE video demonstrating that the MCUPro faders are kind of noisy when they follow an automation busy session. I also feel they are kind of an old technology. I think they have been around for quite some years now. (Any MCU Pro users ? what has your experience been like ?)

Any feedback regarding the Euphonix MC-Control and VE Pro as far as connectivity issues would also be helpful. I also read that there is a memory leak problem that AVID is looking into when using Cubase 6 with EUCON. Hopefully they will resolve this issue. 

Any other suggestions ? or should I just wait till summer, and see what comes out on the market, I'm not in a huge rush. So far non of the above control surfaces have been convincing. It's either this, or that issue, that prevents me from proceeding forward. 

I wish Steinberg would offer a professional quality control surface, but so far that has been wishful thinking :roll: 

Any feedback would be appreciated. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp.


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## autopilot (Mar 8, 2011)

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... highlight=

A good discussion here - Charlie's rundown is particularly useful 

Cheers

S


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## SvK (Mar 8, 2011)

mark my words.....

you will buy one and marvel at how cool it looks....



Within 6 months it will be buried under stacks of papers and other stuff you'll place on it. You'll end up never using it.....

But boy it looks cool 

SvK


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## stonzthro (Mar 8, 2011)

I have a Mackie collecting dust.

I use my Remote Zero SL, but not nearly as much as they tout in magazine reviews.

I know a lot of people like the presonus faderport which is super cheap.


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## muziksculp (Mar 8, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback. hehe.. (I'm still undecided)

Well... This might be suitable for a new topic post, but since it is closely related to this topic, I will proceed .... 

So, 

Do you feel that using a control surface is a luxury=waste of $$$ ? 

Or, 

Do you think that a control surface is a very important, and helpful tool, that enhances productivity/work-flow, and/or production quality i.e. since it allows you to automate multiple parameters of a mix in real time (i.e. levels, pans, sends, ...etc. ) which would not be easily accomplished via Mouse/Trackball, plus, the lesser need for typing, and remembering a lot of key-commands, since they can be pre-programmed on control surface buttons, including Macros ?


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## gsilbers (Mar 8, 2011)

SvK @ Tue Mar 08 said:


> mark my words.....
> 
> you will buy one and marvel at how cool it looks....
> 
> ...



SHHHHHHHhhhhh!!! 

im trying to sell my MC mix :lol:


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## SvK (Mar 8, 2011)

the problem with control surfaces are 10 fold but one of the main ones is, that your eyes are always drawn to the Computer screen....

and that is controlled by the mouse.

my 2 cents?
Get a simple fader box with 8 faders and mutes.

That is all you'll ever need or use.

SvK


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## muziksculp (Mar 8, 2011)

All good, and wise points to consider. (Thanks)

I'm will soon be receiving a Motif XF7, (Upgraded from Motif XS7).

The Motif XF offers control surface functionality (minus motorized faders). providing me with the basic control functions for Cubase 5/6. (levels, Pan, transport, mute, solo, and possibly some other controller features). Easy setup, USB2 functionality, so it won't interfere with the Ethernet data stream used by VE-Pro. 

Do you think using my Motif XF7 as a control surface for Cubase is a pretty good option ?


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## chrisboy (Mar 9, 2011)

I used to have a MCU (before it was stolen from my studio). But I decided to don't spend money on another one and bought myself an Alphatrack. After one year, I am only using the motor fader (the plugin- or EQ-control is not as fast as with the mouse)

However, I think motorized faders are a must-have (because parameter jumps are the worst). If I should choose again, I would go for a Faderport (cheaper than the Alphatrack minus Display and rotary encoders which I don't use anyway)


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## Patch666 (Mar 9, 2011)

Has anyone mentioned the M-audio Project mix? - I have one and it works great with logic as it just uses the mackie protocol. Klaus Badelt uses one to do all his midi and audio fading and Mark Isham uses one in his setup to control volumes back from his protools rig .. They are one of the cheaper ones so if you don't end up using it as much as you though its not as big a loss.


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## noiseboyuk (Mar 9, 2011)

SvK @ Wed Mar 09 said:


> my 2 cents?
> Get a simple fader box with 8 faders and mutes.



Mine too!

I keep getting fatally drawn back to the Euphonix. Apparently the unit I used was ex-demo and a bit flaky, and it was rigged in a very cumbersome way via macs / pcs etc. I'm trying to talk myself round that it explained the reliability problems I had. There's just nothing else at that form factor really.


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## muziksculp (Mar 9, 2011)

Thanks for your suggestions. I’m trying to evaluate :

* Presonus ‘Faderport’. ($129)

* Frontier Design ‘Alphatrack’ ($199)

* Steinberg ‘C-121’ ($429)

All of the above controllers are good candidates, the C-121 is the priciest of the three, and I think it is designed specifically for Cubase. So, it might not be the most flexible controller, i.e. just in case I decide to use ‘Live 8’, or Presonus ‘Studio One Pro’, or other DAWs. 

The ‘Faderport’ has the most attractive price, and seems to be very flexible. 

The ‘Alphatrack’ is a close match for the ‘Faderport’ but a bit more pricy, It’s kind of tough to decide between these two. 

I kind of like the ‘Faderport’, although it needs to be plugged into a power plug to automate the motorized fader, I think the ‘Alphtrack’ is powered via the USB port. Anyway... this isn’t a deal breaker for me. 

Given that all of these controllers have a single fader for volume automation, doesn’t that limit you when trying to mix/automate more than one track’s volume simultaneously ? 

I find this to be the weakest part of these single fader controllers. 

Creating a fluid mix in real-time as you listen to a few tracks and adjust their levels is part of the art of mixing audio tracks, maybe I’m missing something here. But I think if these units had four faders, they would have been much better suited for mixing tracks. 

I will check the M-Audio Project Mix as well, and post my thoughts about it.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## jlb (Mar 9, 2011)

The faderport has a much better quality fader. Does anyone own a faderport and recommend one?

jlb


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## wst3 (Mar 9, 2011)

Since no one has asked... what do you plan to do with a control surface? Maybe I over-think things, but it seems to me there are at least three applications:
1) mixing with physical controls
- something a dinosaur like me enjoys

I am still using a Peavey StudioMix - 8 motorized faders, plus a transport section and a handful of buttons. It isn't in the same league as the Euphonix or Mackie devices, but I have it (so it's essentially free) and I am familiar with it (so it's pretty much configured the way I want it.) Either the Mackie or the especially the Euphonix control surfaces would look cooler, and probably be easier to use, but I just can't rationalize the expense or learning curve right now.

And while motorized faders certainly provide the best possible feedback, I spent several years using a pair of JLCooper MIDI Fader boxes (still have them in fact, and use them for application #2 - but they are far from ideal). For me at least it's more about being able to reach over and grab a fader, even if I have to think about how I am changing the automation.

(It is also true that I am becoming ever more comfortable drawing volume and pan envelopes, but it still isn't quite the same thing.)

2) programming plug-ins with physical controls
- I still find this indispensable for synthesizers, but have to admit I am slowly slipping to the dark side (mousing) for processors and effects.

This is the one I want!!!! I mean need<G>... I spend some time with the Zero SL, and it's so close. In fact it may be as good as it gets, but I haven't accepted that yet. It might be the way Sonar interacts with AutoMap, or it might be AutoMap, but it feels like a kludge.

All I really need is a simple box with maybe 16 knobs (and 16 buttons? Not sure) so that when I pull up a synthesizer, or compressor, or delay line I can interact with it using those knobs, without having to dink around at all. AND, extra credit if I can record automation using those knobs.

For now I use the MIDI Faders, and a Lexicon MRC, and it sorta/kinda works.

If anyone has suggestions for this application feel free to share.

3) remote control
- when I want to record a guitar track I want to be in a nice sounding space, away from the computer, and I want something close to my old AL-II to arm tracks, start and stop the transport, etc.

I used to use a Red Rover (from Syntrillium) which connected via USB. It did everything I needed for remote control, but I hated the tether. I bought a Frontier Tranzport when they came out, and I have never looked back!


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## muziksculp (Mar 9, 2011)

Hi,

Well... After doing a bit of research on my options for control surfaces. I decided to just use a Motif XF7 (Which I will be receiving shortly), to work as a control surface for Cubase 5/6. 

It offers 8 faders, and 8 pan knobs, transport control, and the 'Function buttons' can be programmed to trigger custom key-commands ! 

I think it is my best option so far without spending more $$$. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## stonzthro (Mar 9, 2011)

Yep - I doubt you'll regret NOT buying something right now.


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## chimuelo (Mar 9, 2011)

I can control recording and playback from my 88 note controller, pedals, and fader box.
Thanks to Reaper I can Zoom in/out on selected media items and do other great tricks too, but at the end of the day, you'll still be editing from the QWERTY.

The Open Labs controllers are truly excellent for an all in one package if convenience and workflow are the utmost.


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## Lunatique (Mar 28, 2011)

I'm one of those people who bought a controller thinking I'd be using it a lot, and it just didn't happen; however, for certain things, I'm now using a simple and cheap Korg NanoKontrol.

For mixing - It's just much more intuitive and faster to look at the screen and use the mouse to change volume, panning, tweak parametric EQ's, compressors, and so on, without ever having to take your eyes off the screen. BUT, when needing to deal with mute/solos and volume on multiple tracks, a controller really is much better because you only have one damn mouse cursor. But unless you have a controller where the track names are all displayed on the controller's LCD, you'd have to deal with matching what's on screen to the channel you are tweaking on the controller, and that's really clunky. Also, when you have lots of tracks, navigating to the right track via a controller means going through pages or sets and that's equally annoying. So on screen I'm looking at track 39--that's the one I want to tweak, but then I have to think, where is it EXACTLY on my controller? The 4th set/page? The 5th set/page? And once I'm on the right set/page, which channel is it? 6? 5? It's like taking a math quiz every time you need to use the damn controller.

For transport - I don't know what it's like in other DAW, but in Sonar, if you have a plugin in focus, the QWERTY keyboard shortcuts for the transport no longer work--you'd have to focus on the main GUI first by clicking with the mouse, and then use the hotkey. This is when a controller is much better, because no matter what you're focused on in your screen, the transport buttons will always work as they are assigned to do.

For synths/effects - In general, if you don't need to ride two parameters at the same time for real-time tweaking (such as filter cutoff and resonance), then a controller will do nothing for you. Once again, it's a matter of not having to take your eyes off the screen and simply tweak with the mouse. But if you often need to tweak two parameters simultaneously, then a controller is a must (or, you can just program a X/Y controller and still use a mouse). Personally, I prefer automation because I can change the setting after the fact instead of re-recording the real-time tweaks. For patch changes, I prefer using the keyboard and mouse, since software preset browsing is a lot more sophisticate than simply going forward and backward in presets and banks. Today we have categories and search and all that jazz.


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## re-peat (Mar 28, 2011)

I use an iPad for this. The advantage is that I can move it over to wherever I need it: sometimes it needs to be on top of my digital piano which, due to its size, is some distance away from my DAW, or I can place it next to the V-Drums (which are in another part of the room).
Even better, an iPad can be almost everything you need it to be (provided you have the necessary apps installed of course): one minute it can be a traditional control surface, the next, it can act as a midi keyboard (if you need a few extra octaves to trigger keyswitches for instance) ... or you can control (certain parameters of) Omnisphere with it, or use it as an instrument itself ... and those are only a few of the many, many, many uses that an iPad can have in any studio.

_


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## Walra48 (Mar 28, 2011)

I agree that the iPad is amazing for controlling many functions remotely in the studio
but disagree that it is a good option for mixing. Mixing using a virtual fader under glass means once again your eyes have to be on the glass surface to avoid sliding off the fader.
It's just not tactile enough.


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## chadseiter (Mar 28, 2011)

re-peat @ Mon Mar 28 said:


> I use an iPad for this. The advantage is that I can move it over to wherever I need it: sometimes it needs to be on top of my digital piano which, due to its size, is some distance away from my DAW, or I can place it next to the V-Drums (which are in another part of the room).
> Even better, an iPad can be almost everything you need it to be (provided you have the necessary apps installed of course): one minute it can be a traditional control surface, the next, it can act as a midi keyboard (if you need a few extra octaves to trigger keyswitches for instance) ... or you can control (certain parameters of) Omnisphere with it, or use it as an instrument itself ... and those are only a few of the many, many, many uses that an iPad can have in any studio.
> 
> _



I just bought an iPad for this very purpose. Can anybody recommend an app? I use Digital Performer. 

Chad


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## robibla (Apr 13, 2011)

I'm looking for a basic midi interface that has a fader or two that I can use to control midi expression - my keyboard modwheel is terrible.

Can anyone with a FaderPort tell me if you can remap the fader to any CC, i.e. mod and expression? I've read reports that it doesn't play nice when trying to do this. 

Any other recommendations that might be better?

thanks for any help.


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## PMortise (Apr 13, 2011)

chadseiter @ Mon Mar 28 said:


> I just bought an iPad for this very purpose. Can anybody recommend an app? I use Digital Performer.
> 
> Chad



I have the AC-7 Core: http://saitarasoftware.com/Site/AC-7_Core.html

It has modes for different DAWS including DP. If there is more documentation available than just the set up video, I have yet to find it. But with some exploring I've found my way around it - although not entirely. I'd never use it for cc control as well, but it's fine for remote transport and fader control.

You only get 6 characters for track names on the AC-7 Core's screen, and it abbreviates at it's own discretion, so you'd either have to be strategic in your track naming, or take the "math quiz" that Lunatique was mentioning earlier.


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## reddognoyz (Apr 13, 2011)

I use an Alphatrack with DP. I've had the Mackie universal and it wasn't work the effort. I use DP and the Alphatrack will automatically assign to whatever track is highlighted. That's a big thing. with everything else I know of, you need to step through tracks and banks to get to the track you're adjusting. I never need to do anything but grab the fader with the Alphaport. 

I also have an Ipad app that allows you to create any ort of tactile control surface youd like. Unfortunatly DP only provides midi feedback for pan and volume, no midi controllers, so you're flying blind with your cc's.


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## PMortise (Apr 13, 2011)

reddognoyz @ Wed Apr 13 said:


> ...the Alphatrack will automatically assign to whatever track is highlighted. That's a big thing...


+1
Thanks - I'm gonna have to check that out.


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## jlb (Apr 13, 2011)

midphase @ Mon Mar 28 said:


> jlb @ Wed Mar 09 said:
> 
> 
> > The faderport has a much better quality fader. Does anyone own a faderport and recommend one?
> ...



Unbelievable, and I nearly bought one!

jlb


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## JohnG (Apr 13, 2011)

chadseiter @ 28th March 2011 said:


> I just bought an iPad for this very purpose. Can anybody recommend an app? I use Digital Performer.
> 
> Chad



There is an app right on the MOTU website that I think does all the transport stuff and a lot more besides. It's free -- or at least it is if you are a registered user.


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