# Piano Playing Skill Level



## 3DC (Jan 29, 2021)

As a beginner I wonder how good are you guys in actual playing of piano and how essential - or not is this skill in your every day music production. 

Thanks for feedback.


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## Monkey Man (Jan 29, 2021)

I'm a hack.

Thanks to the ability to edit MIDI 'though, I firmly believe that all you need is a good ear.

EDIT:
There needs to be a "Beginner" category IMHO. Going from "Piano Roll Only" to "Intermediate" makes no sense.

Had the option been there, I'd have chosen it 'cause I don't rate myself as being intermediate.


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## Crowe (Jan 29, 2021)

I'm currently very much focussing on my Piano/Keyboard skills (You need a level between 'Piano Roll Only' and 'Intermediate') and I'm noticing a very real skill increase all across the board.

Granted, Piano skills do not only consist of pressing white and black keys. There's quite a bit of theory, sight-reading and experiencing different types of music and progressions to go along with it.


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## Tim_Wells (Jan 29, 2021)

I'm several years into learning piano/keys after being a life long guitar player. I barely ever pick up my guitar now days. Mainly cause there's not enough time to practice both instruments. That's kind of sad.

I guess I'm an _intermediate_. But often I'm back in the _piano roll_ editing my parts. I can sound like a _confident pro_ on easy pieces... or for a few measures on tougher parts. 

I never realized how easy I had it with the guitar. On the keyboard, your left and right hands can be playing two completely different parts.


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## Richard Wilkinson (Jan 29, 2021)

It's the quickest way to get your ideas down - it would be very hard to try and articulate something in my head by jabbing notes in one-by-one with the mouse before I forgot the idea! Definitely recommend playing piano as much as possible - there's a reason playing in a piano guide track and orchestrating out from that is so popular.


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## Crowe (Jan 29, 2021)

Tim_Wells said:


> I'm several years into learning piano/keys after being a life long guitar player. I barely ever pick up my guitar now days. Mainly cause there's not enough time to practice both instruments. That's kind of sad.
> 
> I guess I'm an _intermediate_. But often I'm back in the _piano roll_ editing my parts. I can sound like a _confident pro_ on easy pieces... or for a few measures on tougher parts.
> 
> I never realized how easy I had it with the guitar. On the keyboard, your left and right hands can be playing two completely different parts.


I come from guitar as well and yeah. That part messed me up as well.


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 29, 2021)

Playing the ivories definitely helps.

Put it another way, when I'm trying to hack out a virtual guitar part, I wish I played the actual instrument.

Who voted "concert pianist?"


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## pmcrockett (Jan 29, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> Playing the ivories definitely helps.
> 
> Put it another way, when I'm trying to hack out a virtual guitar part, I wish I played the actual instrument.
> 
> Who voted "concert pianist?"


That was me, on the grounds that I have played solo recitals, with orchestras, and for churches. I don't make a living at it, though.


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## Nils Neumann (Jan 29, 2021)

I feel like very highly trained pianist have such a big advantage in the DAW world.
Kinda unfair

Can't imagine learning music theory without the piano too.

It is hands down the best Instruments you can learn as a composer. Nothing is even close for me.


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## Chamberfield (Jan 29, 2021)

It depends on what type of music you want to make. I've seen a lot electronic and Epic music created by just painting notes into the timeline which required no playing skill at all. But if you plan to have piano as the lead instrument, then you'll need to develop your playing skills. As mentioned, if you know how to play it's just a lot easier and quicker to get your ideas down.


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## SupremeFist (Jan 29, 2021)

You don't need amazingly virtuosic piano technique to be a good composer, but putting in the work to get acceptably good at the piano inevitably improves one's all-round musicianship, which in turn will feed into one's writing.


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## bbunker (Jan 29, 2021)

tbh I'm not sure what the difference is between "Confident Pro" and "Concert Level." Or between "Confident Pro" and "Intermediate" really, because they're not mutually exclusive. I'm happier sight-reading Kuhlau than Beethoven sonatas, but I've gigged on the instrument and been both confident and professional and hired back, so...?

I kind of read the categories as being "never touched a keyboard," "I can play," "I grew up on the keyboard," and "I grew up on the keyboard and excel beyond my peers." Which - unsurprisingly, you get mostly the second option. And it doesn't really help you figure out how much keyboard you should learn, because the only options for you as someone who didn't grow up on a keyboard is to learn some or not, right?

TLDR: Just go practice some.


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## daan1412 (Jan 29, 2021)

Well, I can _use_ the keyboard to some extent, but to say I can play the piano is an insult to piano players.  Wish I was better. Being able to play and record midi parts is a huuuuge time saver and convenience. I bought midi keyboard to be able to audition instruments easily and to discover stuff by just pressing keys randomly. After some time I started being more comfortable with the keys and began to understand it - all that by simply spending lots of time doodling total nonsense. Now I notice that more and more often it's easier for me to play the parts, rather than to draw most of it manually. I still rely heavily on editing in piano roll, though.


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## kgdrum (Jan 29, 2021)

Speaking for myself,for the poll to reflect the possible levels of piano skills I think there needs to be a tier between piano roll and intermediate.
I don’t really use a piano roll and by no means would I consider my piano skills,chops or knowledge as intermediate.
I consider myself a bit past a beginner but intermediate? Yeah in my wildest fantasies! lol 
I’m an admitted hack that plays the piano like a percussion instrument and hope for the best,sometimes it works ,often it doesn’t.
When I listen to monsters like Chucho Valdez,Herbie or McCoy I can’t imagine having that kind of keyboard virtuosity but I can fantasize! 👍


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## sostenuto (Jan 29, 2021)

Fading with age  
Catholic grade school with strict, capable nuns, High School private lessons with cool, senior pop pianist, University & beyond _ brief studies with extraordinary Howard Brubeck. Capable sight-reader, mediocre player.
Light classical, jazz, pop. Concert Grand, Church Organ, Digital Piano, Keyboards. 

FAVS: Dave Brubeck, George Shearing, Stan Kenton, Lyle Mays, Billy Joel.


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## shponglefan (Jan 29, 2021)

Not really sure what "piano roll only" means in the context of the poll (not playing piano I assume?). Based on the piano grade system, I'm probably somewhere around a grade 2 to 3, so late beginner to early intermediate.


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## Gerbil (Jan 29, 2021)

Confident pro and concert pianist are pretty much the same thing, unless you're up there in that special place with people like Rubalcaba or Argerich.


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## Leigh (Jan 29, 2021)

I play what my teacher called "arranger's piano": I can slowly get through something enough to hear how it sounds.

**Leigh


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## Monkey Man (Jan 29, 2021)

Shiirai said:


> You need a level between 'Piano Roll Only' and 'Intermediate'





kgdrum said:


> Speaking for myself,for the poll to reflect the possible levels of piano skills I think there needs to be a tier between piano roll and intermediate.


Ditto.


kgdrum said:


> I’m an admitted hack that plays the piano like a percussion instrument and hope for the best,sometimes it works ,often it doesn’t.


... and I play like a bass player, Brother KG.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 29, 2021)

While you certainly don't need to be a virtuoso on the piano, I think having a certain degree of proficiency on the keyboard saves you sooo much time. That, along with knowing a certain amount of music theory can do wonders for you.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 29, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> You don't need amazingly virtuosic piano technique to be a good composer, but putting in the work to get acceptably good at the piano inevitably improves one's all-round musicianship, which in turn will feed into one's writing.


This!!!!!!


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## pondinthestream (Jan 29, 2021)

I was a very good guitarist, classical and electric. No piano much at all. I dont play at all anymore, arthritis, but also dont really feel the need. Would have been good to have learnt the piano, but would have been good to learn cello. Probably best would have been singing and percussion. That is, the more the better. But I have no problem composing what I want over and above the natural effort required to compose anything worthwhile at all.


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## Arbee (Jan 29, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> You don't need amazingly virtuosic piano technique to be a good composer, but putting in the work to get acceptably good at the piano inevitably improves one's all-round musicianship, which in turn will feed into one's writing.


Flipside, or it can make your playing too busy. Frank Sinatra's MD once said to me in rehearsal "too many notes, play less". By the time he'd said it three times he was happy, by which time I was playing one handed with three fingers 😁. Moral to the story? Just because you can doesn't mean you should 👍


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## muk (Jan 30, 2021)

I am accomplished with many years of classical training. I am not on a concert pianist level, but I am very good at sight reading and can play virtuosic pieces. For my work piano skills have been essential on several levels. They are important for my workflow in the DAW (I play in everything live). I do compose at the piano (or with paper and pencil). And I learned a lot about music thanks to my piano classes. I got to know a lot of classical repertoire and theory. I concur with @SupremeFist. Basic piano playing skills will always be very beneficial.


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## el-bo (Jan 30, 2021)

I agree with another comment about the poll missing a level between 'Piano Roll' and 'Intermediate'. I write and play all my parts in with a keyboard. It takes a while to suss it all out, and get it recorded correctly (Im still of the ol'skool, who will keep recording takes until I get it right). Would definitely like to improve my skills, so performances would come together with a lot less effort.


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## TomislavEP (Jan 30, 2021)

The piano is my primary instrument and I'm playing it and constantly improving my skills for more than thirty years now. I started at the age of six, and while I don't have any classical background, I'm a very proficient pianist, keyboardist, and guitarist. For the past decade, my main source of income is working as a pro, session, and studio musician, though I'm also hoping to finally capitalize on my work as a composer and producer, which are perhaps my biggest passions.

Speaking of which, I completely agree that you don't have to be an extremely skilled instrumentalist in order to be a quality composer or producer. However, for me, the bond between the actual instrument and the composition (although I most often work with VI's for the sake of convenience) is an inseparable one. This is likely due to the fact that I'm almost completely self-taught; I'm guessing that some classically trained composers feel quite comfortable while working traditionally - by writing music down either on paper or in the notation program. But even though most of the people these days tend to compose by recording and editing their performances, thanks to the modern tools available, you can still accomplish most tasks even if you are not primarily an instrumentalist.


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## Stringtree (Jan 30, 2021)

To look at it another way, it's an entirely different experience to create music or improvise on the piano or guitar with one's eyes closed. 

This isn't virtuosity, just a comfortable familiarity. Omitting the visual aspect is very freeing, just like not looking at waveforms in a DAW and using just one's ears.


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## Doorak94 (Jan 30, 2021)

I'm classically trained (originally wanted to be a concert pianist) but the only reasons i use the piano are for recording single melody lines and maybe some piano sketches. Everything else i use the piano roll. I dont think its necessary for composition at all. 

Well trained Ears > well trained pianist


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## el-bo (Jan 30, 2021)

3DC said:


> Guys this poll was not meant to be a scientific proof but rather a rough indicator on how important is for you actual playing of piano in your every day music production.


One of the problems is you seem to be wanting an answer to a question other than the one the poll is asking i.e How important actual playing of piano is to us, rather than our skill level But that's different to our skill level. The other problem is that there are more levels between not playing and intermediate levels.

S'all good


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## Virtuoso (Jan 30, 2021)

Gerbil said:


> Confident pro and concert pianist are pretty much the same thing, unless you're up there in that special place with people like Rubalcaba or Argerich.


Not sure about that. I've been playing piano since I was 4 (46 years!) to a fairly advanced level, played keyboards in a few large touring bands in the 90s, but I feel there's a huge (and for me) uncrossable gulf between confident pro and concert pianist level. I was up close at a Stephen Hough concert a couple of years ago and slunk home in shame wanting to put all my gear on Craigslist!

Guitarists are a different bunch. I was at a clinic with Dave Kilminster where, ten minutes in, it became apparent that most of the room of self-described 'advanced level' guitarists couldn't actually hear the difference between a major and a minor chord.


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## Chamberfield (Jan 30, 2021)

I'll add a funny anecdote about being a keyboardist. For those of you who played keyboards in bands, especially rock bands in our college years, we were always considered "the geek of the band". My guitarist friends used to rib me about it, but recently one of them admitted that "you got the last laugh". Why? Because if you're an accomplished keyboardist with an assortment of VIs at your fingertips, the world is your oyster.


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## Gerbil (Jan 31, 2021)

Virtuoso said:


> Not sure about that. I've been playing piano since I was 4 (46 years!) to a fairly advanced level, played keyboards in a few large touring bands in the 90s, but I feel there's a huge (and for me) uncrossable gulf between confident pro and concert pianist level. I was up close at a Stephen Hough concert a couple of years ago and slunk home in shame wanting to put all my gear on Craigslist!
> 
> Guitarists are a different bunch. I was at a clinic with Dave Kilminster where, ten minutes in, it became apparent that most of the room of self-described 'advanced level' guitarists couldn't actually hear the difference between a major and a minor chord.


If I was told a confident professional pianist was coming in, I'd expect someone who can play concert works and sight read to a professional standard and have a lot of concert playing experience. If I was told a concert pianist was on their way, I'd expect exactly the same. They're the same thing from where I'm from. But if that concert pianist was Evgeny Kissin, I'd expect something extra (and no-one on here is at that level).


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## Gerbil (Jan 31, 2021)

3DC said:


> I apologize for any confusion or bad poll classification. I was just curious to see how important is piano and piano playing skill in every day work for this community.


No apologies needed  I get what you meant now.


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## ZeroZero (Feb 1, 2021)

I took to piano late. I played lots of brass and woods a bit of guitar. Been going on keys 10 years now and I am fairly fluent. I know what Miles Davis meant now, when he was asked "How do you play the Trumpet?". He said (and I paraphrase) Go and learn the piano.


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## ZeroZero (Feb 1, 2021)

3DC said:


> The poll only *very roughly* indicate *at the same time* piano playing levels and actual use of piano-keyboard in music production. Its not intended to take it so seriously.
> 
> So again very roughly:
> 
> ...


There are lots of confident pros inthe Jazz world that do not sioght read music. I am near pro level and play hundreds of Jazz numbers, I memorise them all, so I hardly ever sight read, there is no need. Real Book Style you memorise the tune and the chords and then you create. This will never give you the skills of sight reading. My wife can read more or less anything, but take the page away and she falls over. So, I disagree with this analysis - which seems classivally orientated


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## José Herring (Feb 1, 2021)

I've decided to take my piano playing more seriously. I would consider myself a life long beginner. I have no interest in learning the works of other composers on the Piano besides maybe 3 or 4 pieces that I dearly love. What I wanted was to get more of my ideas out on the keyboard before I actually start composing and producing them.

What I did was to get a book by Dohnanyi on finger independence and oh boy after a few weeks of that my piano playing is improving to the point that I actually look and sound like I know how to play. I think after a year I might even be able to take some basic gigs playing keyboards. I'm amazed on how much of piano playing just comes down to finger independence, strength and muscle memory.


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## Arbee (Feb 1, 2021)

José Herring said:


> What I did was to get a book by Dohnanyi on finger independence and oh boy after a few weeks of that my piano playing is improving to the point that I actually look and sound like I know how to play.


This book has been my bible for decades, such an efficient way to build and maintain good technique with limited practice time. 

It's interesting when you transition from real to midi piano playing, you get the chance to forensically analyse your technique. The independence exercises in this book are pure gold for providing consistent and controllable weigtht on all keys with all fingers (e.g. record something chromatic and check your midi velocities, a great reality check!).


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## José Herring (Feb 1, 2021)

Arbee said:


> This book has been my bible for decades, such an efficient way to build and maintain good technique with limited practice time.
> 
> It's interesting when you transition from real to midi piano playing, you get the chance to forensically analyses your technique. The independence exercises in this book are pure gold for providing consistent and controllable weight on all keys with all fingers (e.g. record something chromatic and check your midi velocities, a great reality check!).


Great idea. I'll do that once I get a new keyboard. Right now my controller's G4 isn't reporting midi correctly so I have to remember not to hit that key harder when doing the exercises. It's getting annoying so a new controller is in order.

I'm glad a made a good choice. I started with the Cortot but that one either got lost in the English translation or is just limited. I couldn't really find any real use for it though it did beginning to have some effect. But the Dohnanyi it was night and day after even the first exercise. I did it for an hour one night from about 1 am to 2am and the next day I was banging on the keyboard like a champ. Made more progress in that one practice than I made in 3 years of being forced to play piano to get my degree.


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## shponglefan (Feb 2, 2021)

José Herring said:


> What I did was to get a book by Dohnanyi on finger independence


Is that the Essential Finger Exercises book?


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## José Herring (Feb 2, 2021)

shponglefan said:


> Is that the Essential Finger Exercises book?


Yes


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## DoubleTap (Feb 3, 2021)

Although I did a few piano lessons when I was a kid, I would have called myself piano roll only until a few weeks ago when I decided to find something online and came across a course / books that teaches piano a bit like guitar - basically instead of learning scales and using notation, you learn chords first, then slowly add in some bottom hand. 

It's been a revelation - I can now vamp my way through a bunch of songs like Hit the Road Jack, Wild Rover, Amazing Grace and Raindrops Keep Falling on My Head. Still early days, but I no longer look at the keyboard like a crossword without any clues.


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## BlakStatus (Feb 3, 2021)

José Herring said:


> I've decided to take my piano playing more seriously. I would consider myself a life long beginner. I have no interest in learning the works of other composers on the Piano besides maybe 3 or 4 pieces that I dearly love. What I wanted was to get more of my ideas out on the keyboard before I actually start composing and producing them.
> 
> What I did was to get a book by Dohnanyi on finger independence and oh boy after a few weeks of that my piano playing is improving to the point that I actually look and sound like I know how to play. I think after a year I might even be able to take some basic gigs playing keyboards. I'm amazed on how much of piano playing just comes down to finger independence, strength and muscle memory.



This sounds exactly like me. Thanks for suggesting that book. Going to get it ASAP. (I also subscribe to Melodics).


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## José Herring (Feb 3, 2021)

DoubleTap said:


> Although I did a few piano lessons when I was a kid, I would have called myself piano roll only until a few weeks ago when I decided to find something online and came across a course / books that teaches piano a bit like guitar - basically instead of learning scales and using notation, you learn chords first, then slowly add in some bottom hand.
> 
> It's been a revelation - I can now vamp my way through a bunch of songs like Hit the Road Jack, Wild Rover, Amazing Grace and Raindrops Keep Falling on My Head. Still early days, but I no longer look at the keyboard like a crossword without any clues.


Cool what course?



BlakStatus said:


> This sounds exactly like me. Thanks for suggesting that book. Going to get it ASAP. (I also subscribe to Melodics).


I'll check out melodics. On my bucket list one day is to go to a Manhattan restaurant and play a few standards lounge style. I thought it would be on the Clarinet but it might be on the piano or both.


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## DoubleTap (Feb 3, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Cool what course?



Piano For All - it's fairly low tech. The guy has written nine or so e-books with embedded videos demonstrating what to do.









Home - Piano For All | Learn Piano & Keyboard


Join over 160,000 Happy Students Worldwide. Imagine being able to sit down at a piano and just PLAY – Ballads, Pop, Blues, Jazz, Ragtime, even amazing Classical pieces?




pianoforall.com


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## Big Tick (Feb 3, 2021)

Somewhat advanced jazz pianist here.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Feb 3, 2021)

I have been practicing this particular technique. Felt like a total half-wit when I first began, but definitely helps.


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## MusiquedeReve (Feb 3, 2021)

I just started (yesterday) the Pianote course

Coming from the guitar, I thought I would have an easier time learning but, as the first lesson taught me, left hand on the piano is nothing like left hand on the guitar

Wish me luck lol


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## Big Tick (Feb 3, 2021)

I've asked for this in several places, but I haven't tried here - since there seem to be quite a few guitar players here.... if anyone wants to trade guitar lessons for piano / keyboard lessons via Zoom or Skype, please hit me up. I've been trying to teach myself guitar during the pandemic, and could use some help.


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## Pier (Feb 3, 2021)

I took a couple of piano lessons years ago and followed a method book. For some years I played piano every day, but that was 10+ years ago. I now only fiddle with it when writing music, but I don't do any exercises anymore (scale, arpeggios, Hanon, etc).

I don't have any interest into investing time and effort into learning piano properly (eg: playing while reading) but I would like to be able to improve my dexterity and improvisation skills. Can anyone recommend a good book / method / course for that?


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## Pier (Feb 3, 2021)

José Herring said:


> I've decided to take my piano playing more seriously. I would consider myself a life long beginner. I have no interest in learning the works of other composers on the Piano besides maybe 3 or 4 pieces that I dearly love. What I wanted was to get more of my ideas out on the keyboard before I actually start composing and producing them.
> 
> What I did was to get a book by Dohnanyi on finger independence and oh boy after a few weeks of that my piano playing is improving to the point that I actually look and sound like I know how to play. I think after a year I might even be able to take some basic gigs playing keyboards. I'm amazed on how much of piano playing just comes down to finger independence, strength and muscle memory.


Is this the one you're following?


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## José Herring (Feb 3, 2021)

Pier said:


> Is this the one you're following?


Yes but I got the PDF version of it.


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## Big Tick (Feb 3, 2021)

Pier said:


> I took a couple of piano lessons years ago and followed a method book. For some years I played piano every day, but that was 10+ years ago. I now only fiddle with it when writing music, but I don't do any exercises anymore (scale, arpeggios, Hanon, etc).
> 
> I don't have any interest into investing time and effort into learning piano properly (eg: playing while reading) but I would like to be able to improve my dexterity and improvisation skills. Can anyone recommend a good book / method / course for that?


Melodic Structures by Jerry Bergonzi
Jazz Keyboard Harmony by Phil DeGreg
The Jazz Piano Book by Mark Levine


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## rgames (Feb 3, 2021)

An interesting tangent to the original poll would be to know people's playing level on *some* instrument, piano or otherwise.

I think 80% of the advantage of learning piano is just in learning to play an instrument, any instrument, especially in live performance. I think the last 20% is due to the "piano" part.

There's a lot to learning about music that is not particular to piano. I think it's like learning to code: there are different languages but you still need to learn the basic concepts.

Having said that, though, I do think the piano is the best instrument to learn if you're going to be a composer because it is the best embodiment of music theory (well, Western music theory) and you tend to learn more theory with piano than with other instruments. But you can do very well learning some other instrument as long as you fill in the theory parts you tend not to get when learning, say, oboe.

rgames


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## chillbot (Feb 8, 2021)

Pier said:


> Is this the one you're following?


I just got this book because of this thread and... wow.

I'm amazed there are self-proclaimed beginners in this thread who are working on this book. It's probably the last book I would ever recommend to beginners. But everyone learns differently I guess. This is a very painful book.


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## Pier (Feb 8, 2021)

chillbot said:


> I just got this book because of this thread and... wow.
> 
> I'm amazed there are self-proclaimed beginners in this thread who are working on this book. It's probably the last book I would ever recommend to beginners. But everyone learns differently I guess. This is a very painful book.


I did one of the first exercises by following this video and it's freaking hard.


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## Arbee (Feb 8, 2021)

Pier said:


> I did one of the first exercises by following this video and it's freaking hard.



Now try it in one of the other keys the book mandates, like B flat


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## Akat1 (Feb 11, 2021)

I go back and forth weekly, whether I should just put to task learning piano. I've put so many years into guitar, oh I dont know. 

Its those damn black keys and not having stings on a fretboard. Really puts me out of my element.

 
Im trying to imagine a scenario where I strap myself under a baby grand, right arm protruding out from under the keys. Feet popping out down by C8. And using some sort of yet unknown implement to pick and strum the ivory.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 11, 2021)

Akat1 said:


> And using some sort of yet unknown implement to pick and strum the ivory.


Or glue little hammers to each finger?


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## Akat1 (Feb 11, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Or glue little hammers to each finger?


I like the cut of your jib


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## Big Tick (Feb 11, 2021)

Here's a little exercise. It's more challenging than it looks.


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## Evans (Feb 18, 2021)

I suppose I'm intermediate-level, because

I was far more confident 15-20 years ago when I played daily; and
I am low/mid Confident Pro on my guitars, but my comfort at the piano is _absolutely _a level below those, no question.
I'm at the "can save time while sketching" and "can sit down to play for the family at gatherings" (even though I despise the attention) level.


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