# Finale versus Notion



## alphabetgreen (Apr 27, 2010)

Can anybody tell me how Finale and Notion compare (purely as notation programmes, not the audio output).

I have both and haven't got to grips with either yet (I've still yet to install Notion 3, as I need a dual layer DVD drive).

I may be wrong, but I'm of the opinion that Finale can do practically anything, but Notion is more user friendly.

Can anybody give me some advice on this matter?

Cheers,

Simon


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## dcoscina (Apr 27, 2010)

I have both programs (I was a beta tester for Notion3) and there's no comparison- Finale 2010 in terms of pure notation mops up the floor with Notion. But then again, the whole focus of Notion has changed from ver. 2 to ver 3 where they now feel it's an alternative composition program with its interface focussing on notation. I'm not sure why they did this however since there's plenty of DAWs on the market that do this. I personally prefer Notion2. I was all enthusiastic about N3 when it first came out but I feel like it's a bit of an odd child at this point- it cannot compete with Finale or Sibelius in the notation dept and it cannot compete with Logic/DP/Cubase/Pro Tools/Sonar in the sequencing dept. 

At this point, it has some problems that I cannot live with- 
1. mouse-centric inputting of notes. On a laptop, this is crappy
2. not enough resources to handle big orchestral templates
3. built in instruments do not respond to dynamics in realtime (ie crescendos/diminuendos do squat unlike Sibelius or Finale whichi can trigger DXF patches)
4. No free upgrade for the soundkits that I bought for Notion2-and I have them all!

I know other Notion users who went back to N2 because it works better. I also have mixed feelings about the new close mic'd samples. The strings are much better but the brass still sound anemic. The sound sets that trigger EWQLSO and VSL and Miroslav are nice but they also dont't exploit those libs as fully as Jon Loving's sets for Sibelius. 

These are my thoughts. At this point, I'm disappointed in the program but I hope the direction they are taking pays off in the end.


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## alphabetgreen (Apr 27, 2010)

Thanks Doscina,

I've actually heard that N2 is better than N3, as N2 DOES respond to dynamics. I was pretty sure that Finale would be more comprehensive than Notion. However, with N3, I will be able to integrate some of their sounds with Cubase, plus the two IK Multimedia attachments (CS Reverb & AmpliTube X-Gear) will be handy.

I'm pretty sure I will find some use for it. After all, it only cost me £76 (as a user of Finale), so I can't complain.

Thanks for your advice. It's truly appreciated.

Cheers,

Simon

p.s. One thing that did wind me up was the fact that I've had to upgrade my DVD drive to 'Dual Layer'. Something that I'd never heard of.


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## stonzthro (Apr 27, 2010)

I've been using Finale since 1990 (and still do) and I'd suggest you look into Sibelius. Finale is great if you already know it, but I don't feel their company cares much for the userbase. Don't get me wrong, it can do practically anything, but unless you are really doing some experimental writing, it can be a VERY frustrating company to deal with.


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## alphabetgreen (Apr 27, 2010)

Too true, and for notation purposes, my first choice WAS Sibelius. However, as much as I tried to qualify for the Educational discount, I was unsuccessful, and just couldn't afford it. Finale may not be as dynamic as Sibelius, but from what I can gather it CAN (eventually) do what you want it to, and it's £200 cheaper. THAT was the deciding factor (I'm not a particularly rich man....lol)

Cheers,

Simon


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## JohnG (Apr 27, 2010)

I have used Finale for a long time and am very familiar with its strengths and weaknesses.

BUT...

...in the last two years or so the program has become far more easy to use, the help function works properly, and it's actually -- gasp -- intuitive to a greater extent than ever before. 

For example, you can set where you want dynamic markings to go, so if you're doing a choir part and want them above the staff -- there they go. For instruments, they can be put down below, and they land (most of the time) in a reasonable spot.

In other words, a number of things that for almost 20 years have been manual are now at least somewhat automatic and easier.

I wonder whether Finale's developers finally noticed some of the ideas Sibelius had implemented that made basic notation easier?


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## dcoscina (Apr 27, 2010)

Using some of the Notion3 sounds in Re-Wire can be effective. The one thing I do like about Notion2 is that I can hear almost ANY articulation without having to search another library for it. If I want sul ponticello tremolo, I just indicate it. If I want a Bartok snap pizz. or horn trills with flutter tongue, I just indicate it. N3 has some ground to cover to get to the level I think Notion2 was at. THey also desperately need another method of note entry and I've been bugging Lubo Astinov about this as have others. 

I do like Lubo's sound sets though and I have gotten some pretty good results from using Notion3 and EWQLSO. But some dynamics are way off.


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## stonzthro (Apr 27, 2010)

alphabetgreen @ Tue Apr 27 said:


> Too true, and for notation purposes, my first choice WAS Sibelius. However, as much as I tried to qualify for the Educational discount, I was unsuccessful, and just couldn't afford it. Finale may not be as dynamic as Sibelius, but from what I can gather it CAN (eventually) do what you want it to, and it's £200 cheaper. THAT was the deciding factor (I'm not a particularly rich man....lol)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Simon



Go for it then - it is a great piece of software if you don't mind living with it on a continual basis while you learn how it works.

@John - I agree they have made improvements but if i were starting out, I would definitely take a close look at Sibelius as they seem to be the leader in new ideas. During my last bout of "why on earth did they move THAT feature to there" and "where did they move this feature on this upgrade" - I was sorely tempted to switch myself.


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## dcoscina (Apr 27, 2010)

I primarily use Sibelius these days. I honestly prefer the printout to Finale which is clean looking but very rigid to me. Sibelius' fonts look much nicer. And I like its interface more. Now that I have spent some time with it, I can fly around. I cannot say enough about Jon Loving's sound sets as well. The Symphobia and Orchestral Brass sets for Project SAM are great!


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## dcoscina (May 7, 2010)

I'm going to add one good thing about NOTION 3. I really like that most of the articulations automatically trigger the appropriate sample. I have pulled a lot of hair out trying to program Sibelius or Finale 2010 to accurately perform ornaments and trills by triggering the correct sample in my 3rd party libs. Also, even though I just use GPO to sketch out stuff, the lack of short articulation samples PISSES ME OFF! I write a lot for staccatisimo or staccato articulations and not hear a good tight string or brass or hell even ww stacc sample just frustrates me. Some of the close mic'd samples in N3 are a huge improvement over N2 (mostly the strings- they actually sound pretty damn good). 

I do wish N3 would include a virtual keyboard like Sibelius 6 or else some other form of inputting notes that doesn't rely on a mouse or USB keyboard though. They have to think that a good portion of their base will be using laptops. Heck, that was one of the whole credos of the original Notion. "Compose with nothing but a single laptop- no outboard gear".

I have actually gone back to Notion in spite of its shortcomings as a compositional medium because I'm still faster at using it than anything else. I still like Sibelius 6 better for a lot of things but its sound playback is reliant on big 3rd party libraries that just cannot perform on my little Macbook 1.83 ghz. poor wittle thing!


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## alphabetgreen (May 7, 2010)

Since I last wrote, I'm getting to grips with both programmes surprisingly. I think that the main trouble with Notion 3 is that they are using the 'velocity' medium to represent 'volume' which is the wrong way to do it. There is no effect with crescendo and diminuendo on long notes. Also, some of the Notion 3 samples are awful. The solo strings for instance. Thankfully, they accommodate the Miroslav solo strings which are much nicer. Finale's been a bit of wrestling match, but the Finale forum's really handy if you come across any particular dilemma. I haven't tried the Garritan playback yet, but I will be doing shortly.


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## dcoscina (Jun 4, 2010)

The Garritan instruments respond very well in Finale- moreso than in Sibelius for some odd reason. Still don't know why. I'm primarily on Sibelius 6.02 these days but once in a while I open up finale 2010 and see if it does anything better. Most of the time it doesn't except make GPO sound better. 

I really do wish Avid or Make Music would contract EW or VSL to do a custom notation library for their programs. I do respect what Gary G has accomplished but I would like as many articulations to play as possible. NOTION is the only program that covers almost every possible articulation with actual samples rather than some fake way of doing it- like metered tremolo or various trills.


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## alphabetgreen (Jun 6, 2010)

Yeah, I know. The other good thing about Notion is the ability to switch to 'pizz', 'arco' and 'tremolo' without loading up new tracks.

I've gotta say though. Finale isn't the easiest of programmes to get to grips with, even with the tutorials. Trying to find the simplest of commands (courtesy accidentals for example) is a bit of a grind in comparison to the other notation programmes. Having said that, once mastered, I would imagine it probably is, along with Sibelius (so I've heard), one of the most versatile of programmes, notationwise.


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## alphabetgreen (Jun 6, 2010)

It's funny you should say that, because I've just been having a similar discussion on another forum and a Mr Frederick Zinos replied thus:

"Try a tutti violin section glissando and trill simultaniously. In real life its quite delicious, in Sibelius it doesn't exist. Or try the notation techniques utilized by Penderecki in Threnody. that doesn't exist either but is now fairly common in commerical music. Or try, as experienced viola players sometimes do, to play the horn solo from Till Eulenspiegel on the viola which requires them to hit the C string so hard with the frog of the bow that the string momentarily flattens out and gives them a Bb. Can't do it on SibMu. Col Legno sounds like a bunch of crickets Try bending tones or any of the so called extended techniques on the reeds, doesn't work.

So while Sib does a lot of things well, and many more things so-so, the implied claim that it can do virtually anything is, in my opinion, just a tad hyperbolic."

Of course, if one searches hard enough, it's possible to find anything that someone or something can't do.


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## dcoscina (Jun 7, 2010)

I agree with the above. I find Sibelius a little faster to work with but Finale deeper and kore flexible. I also puchased a reference book on Finale that has sped up my workflow by 50%


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## alphabetgreen (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm actually glad I invested in Finale (as opposed to Sibelius) for the reasons you have given, although the deciding factor for me, if I'm honest, was the price. However, every day that I use it, I always learn something new and I'm getting that little bit nearer to mastering it. Slowly but surely.


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## dcoscina (Jun 7, 2010)

the metatools are cool and there are some very quick shortcuts- like hitting the Command-S for staccato, Command-[any number] for dynamics, etc, etc. I know it's the main marketing strategy of Sibelius' to make Finale out to be a scary convoluted program that isn't musical, but it's a very powerful program that can do almost anything, albeit with a longer learning curve.


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## Narval (Jun 7, 2010)

There is no learning curve if you know music theory. I have learned Finale in a few hours of a rainy afternoon, and actually copied a Haydn symphony that very evening. After that, there was the manual to search for specific less common things, plus the forums. Of course, the speed improves over time, but Finale is very comprehensive and easy to use from the start.


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## dcoscina (Jun 7, 2010)

Narval you hit the nail on the head. If you know music theory Finale isn't too tough. Sibelius with it's keyboard entry method seems to be catering to musically illiterate types who cannot find their way around a grand staff. I still lime it alot but I'm tired if all the Finale bashing, mostly from Avids marketing machine


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## Narval (Jun 7, 2010)

There's nothing wrong with the keyboard entry method, I actually use the mouse as little as possible. But I know what you're saying. :wink: 

I own Sibelius as well, but I don't like it much and hardly ever use it. Seems to me that there's a difference in approach between Finale and Sibelius similar to that between Mac and Windows operating systems. Don't want to start a war here, just stating my impression. Everyone is entitled to like one over the other. The competition between them seems to be benòÛ/   ×TýÛ0   ×TþÛ0   ×TÿÛ0   ×U Û0   ×UÛ0   ×UÛ0   ×UÛ0


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## alphabetgreen (Jun 7, 2010)

dcoscina @ Tue 27 Apr said:


> I have both programs (I was a beta tester for Notion3) and there's no comparison- Finale 2010 in terms of pure notation mops up the floor with Notion. But then again, the whole focus of Notion has changed from ver. 2 to ver 3 where they now feel it's an alternative composition program with its interface focussing on notation. I'm not sure why they did this however since there's plenty of DAWs on the market that do this. I personally prefer Notion2. I was all enthusiastic about N3 when it first came out but I feel like it's a bit of an odd child at this point- it cannot compete with Finale or Sibelius in the notation dept and it cannot compete with Logic/DP/Cubase/Pro Tools/Sonar in the sequencing dept.
> 
> At this point, it has some problems that I cannot live with-
> 1. mouse-centric inputting of notes. On a laptop, this is crappy
> ...


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## alphabetgreen (Jun 19, 2010)

*I wish I had've taken your word for it.*



dcoscina @ Tue 27 Apr said:


> I have both programs (I was a beta tester for Notion3) and there's no comparison- Finale 2010 in terms of pure notation mops up the floor with Notion. But then again, the whole focus of Notion has changed from ver. 2 to ver 3 where they now feel it's an alternative composition program with its interface focussing on notation. I'm not sure why they did this however since there's plenty of DAWs on the market that do this. I personally prefer Notion2. I was all enthusiastic about N3 when it first came out but I feel like it's a bit of an odd child at this point- it cannot compete with Finale or Sibelius in the notation dept and it cannot compete with Logic/DP/Cubase/Pro Tools/Sonar in the sequencing dept.
> 
> At this point, it has some problems that I cannot live with-
> 1. mouse-centric inputting of notes. On a laptop, this is crappy
> ...



I've just wasted two weeks (about 180 hours) notating the 3rd movement of my symphony on Notion 3. As I progressed, it kept cutting out until finally it won't even let me in, so I can't transfer it (via .xml) to Finale 2010. I've sent them an e-mail, hoping they might be able to recover it. 

The only good thing about Notion (apart from coping with small, simple projects) is that it's given me the confidence to get to know Finale better. I'm now making good progress with Finale, but I can't activate the GPO samples, just the Smart Synth sounds.

Is there anyway I could incorporate Miroslav into Finale? Also, is it possible to use two different libraries for the same piece in Finale?

Cheers,

Simon


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## alphabetgreen (Jun 19, 2010)

*Reference Book*



dcoscina @ Mon 07 Jun said:


> I agree with the above. I find Sibelius a little faster to work with but Finale deeper and kore flexible. I also puchased a reference book on Finale that has sped up my workflow by 50%



What's the title, author etc of this book, and where can I order it?


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## Narval (Jun 19, 2010)

I can recommend this book:

http://finalepower.com/about_the_author/index.php


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## alphabetgreen (Jun 19, 2010)

Thanks Narval, I'll look into it. As a matter of interest, how does it manage to speed up ones ability on Finale?


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## dcoscina (Jun 19, 2010)

Yeah that's the book I got. It just simplifies how to set up quick=keys (to switch between meta tools) and shortcuts within those tools. I think it's worth its weight in gold. Before reading this, I stumbled around Finale and thought Sibelius was so much faster. Now I'm pretty quick at both.


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## alphabetgreen (Jun 19, 2010)

I'll see if I can get hold of a copy. However, I seem to be learning things everyday, now that I've given up on Notion (for my symphony, that is). There is nothing more depressing than losing all that work that I mentioned above. I'm sure Finale will do a better job as I get the hang of it.


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