# Help choosing microphone for baby grand piano



## Knomes (May 25, 2020)

Hi,
My ex piano teacher has opened a Youtube channel where she performs classical music with her Kawai baby grand piano.
At the moment, she is recording with her phone so I suggested that a better result would be obtained with a proper microphone.
However, I do not know what specific microphone she should get.
I found this site where the MXL 770 is suggested as a good budget option.

I think that she also need an external audio card to which connect the microphone, what could be a good option in this case?
I have to consider that the whole process should be as easy as possible since no one has experience in mixing there.

Last question: what is the best position for the microphone?

Thanks for the help!


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## Rory (May 25, 2020)

Is she using the phone to record the video? If so, which phone? This has a direct bearing on how she records the audio. A link to the YouTube channel would be helpful.

If you want to know the options on micing a piano, the link in your post includes a 10 minute video by Spitfire's Christian Henson on how to do it.


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## Knomes (May 25, 2020)

Hi, thanks for your answer.



Rory said:


> A link to the YouTube channel would be helpful.



This is her channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjCEb4BCs2wEIY2zuPBEe5g

I didn't notice the video in my link, thanks for pointing that out!


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## Rory (May 25, 2020)

Hi,

I had a look at your website and saw that you studied in Palermo. Cool. I lived for a year near Ispica 

It's hard to tell from her videos what she's using as a camera. The Dvorak video could have been shot with a regular camera or a phone in landscape orientation. A number of her videos consist of still images. That leaves the ones that were shot from one end of her keyboard. In these, she has mirrored the image but I don't know how. These videos could have been made with a phone in vertical, portrait orientation.

You say in your first post that she is using her phone to record the audio. I think that the audio in the videos is actually not bad. Comments from her viewers are quite positive. If she wants to improve her audio, the easiest way is to plug an external preamp into the phone, which would bypass the phone's preamp, and plug an external mic into the preamp. The alternative is to get a reasonably priced Tascam or Zoom external recorder. Some of these have mics built-in, but they can also take one or two external mics. The one issue that an external recorder raises is that she will have to synchronise the video with the sound. This is not a big deal, but it requires an extra step.

Do you have any idea how much money she wants to spend on this? There is quite a price range for either of these solutions.


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## wst3 (May 25, 2020)

Among other things, the room and the piano will have the biggest influence on both microphone selection and placement. Budget will also be a factor, do you have an idea on budget?

Since she is streaming may I assume there is no requirement for stereo? It's a starting point anyway. (and please forgive the round-about answer, I figure the process is every bit as important as the recommendation).

My 6'-ish Yamaha C series sits in my living room, and sounds pretty darned good there. I've recorded it a couple of times (I always mean to, but laziness sometimes wins!).

I find that small capsule condenser microphones are a little too detailed for most projects, they just won't sit in the mix easily. For a solo piano piece they provide a very nice sound, so that's where I'd start. You probably still don't want a super detailed microphone (e.g. anything Earthworks), but something along the lines of an AKG C-451 or an Audio Technica AT-4031 might do the trick. BUT (big disclaimer) I've only ever used these in pairs, and I think that by the time you placed a single microphone far enough away it might sound thin. That is a function of the room, and I can't even guess about that.

The alternative is a large capsule condenser or a ribbon microphone. Based on the recordings I heard on her site that is where I would start for a mono recording.

And, currently I'm on a ribbon microphone kick (full disclosure and all that). I recently made a stereo recording of my piano with a Royer SF-12 placed at roughly the height of the top of the lid fully open, and probably 3-4 feet from the piano at the center of the curve in the body (how's that for a weak description?) It turned out really well.

It is almost certainly overkill for the application, but as a point of reference it is one of my favorite recordings of this piano. It leaned towards a dark sound, and it was just an experiment, so I have no idea if it would work well in a mix, but it sounded a lot like the piano by itself - always a good test.

My second favorite recordings used a pair of large capsule condenser microphones in a "Mid-Side" configuration. The front facing microphone was a Neumann TLM-193 and the side facing microphone was an AKG C-414, and yes, I know you are supposed to use the same microphone for both, but I've used this pair in the past and it sounds pretty cool. 

Placement was about 4 feet off the floor (ear height) and parallel to the bench/me, about 2 feet from the edge of the bench. Much to my pleasant surprise, I could use just the front facing microphone for a really nice mono recording.

TL;DR - after all that, I guess I would start with a single, cardiod (omni if the room is really gorgeous sounding) large capsule condenser microphone placed at ear height, and I'd start by placing it behind the player, maybe a foot or less back from the player. Then I'd swing it in an arc till it was parallel to the player, and once I found that sweet spot I'd increase/decrease the distance to fine tune it.

It is, I suspect, a rather unusual placement, but it worked nicely for my piano in my room - with the kids sent to friends houses, the AC turned off, and the dog asleep - these little details do matter!!

As for a specific brand and model - if budget allows I'd choose the TLM-193, or if I could afford it, the TLM-67. The TLM-103 is another candidate, although it will be brighter. An AKG C-414 is a popular choice, although it is not my favorite. If these are all beyond the budget then I would look at lower cost cardiod LDC microphones from Audio Technica or Shure. The KSM-32 is a remarkable microphone and a great value.

In fairness, people who are less strange than I almost always go with a pair of small capsule cardiod condensers placed over the the strings. Earthworks makes a kit with a bar that fits in the piano and two of their microphones. It is brilliant. Sheer genius really. It is also stupid expensive, and again, overkill for the application. I have had the chance to use the "PianoMic" on a couple different 7 foot grand pianos (one from Yamaha, one from Kawai), and the results were spectacular. In both cases the recording was part of a rock and roll mix.

Let me know if you have any questions.


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## Rory (May 25, 2020)

wst3 said:


> Since she is streaming may I assume there is no requirement for stereo? It's a starting point anyway.



If you look again at her channel, you'll see that none of her videos have involved streaming. Her videos are shot an edited before upload, and in a number of cases are actually montages of still images.


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## wst3 (May 25, 2020)

Apologies - I was a little lazy in my terminology. Clearly these are "produced" videos, I tend to use the term streamed because they are sent through various levels of processing to fit on the net.

Also, I gave a couple of them a listen a few minutes ago on my studio monitors. On my laptop the room tone is not at all objectionable, in the studio it is a little overwhelming. That can be resolved by placing the microphone closer to the piano, or using a microphone with a tighter pickup pattern.

I still don't think she needs a stereo recording, but if she does that changes things a little, and adds quite a bit to the cost. I would probably stick with a mono recording.


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## Rory (May 25, 2020)

wst3 said:


> I still don't think she needs a stereo recording, but if she does that changes things a little, and adds quite a bit to the cost. I would probably stick with a mono recording.



There's a pretty basic question before she even gets to the question of mono or stereo, which is how she's going to get the signal from these mikes that you're recommending, some of them costing serious money, into her smartphone.


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## Knomes (May 25, 2020)

Thanks for your help!



Rory said:


> I had a look at your website and saw that you studied in Palermo. Cool. I lived for a year near Ispica



Ah that's cool. Did you like your time there?



wst3 said:


> Budget will also be a factor, do you have an idea on budget?



I asked her about the budget, she said that she would like to keep the thing under 100 euros.


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## RonOrchComp (May 25, 2020)

Stick with the phone recordings. Or she has to way up her budget.

I just listened to "Guardare dentro", and it actually sounds pretty good.

The only mic that's decent for under 100, is going to be an SM57. But that's one mic, and the recordings which are currently in stereo, will then be in mono. Even if she got two SM57s for stereo, the sound is not going to be all that better than it is now, because of the the fact that she will still be in the same room, which is more important than the mic.

Then, she needs either a mic pre, or a sound card that has mic pres.

Not doable with her budget. The phone is just fine.


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## MartinH. (May 25, 2020)

Knomes said:


> I asked her about the budget, she said that she would like to keep the thing under 100 euros.





RonOrchComp said:


> Stick with the phone recordings. Or she has to way up her budget.
> 
> I just listened to "Guardare dentro", and it actually sounds pretty good.



+1


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## Knomes (May 25, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> Stick with the phone recordings. Or she has to way up her budget.



Thanks for the answer. What do you think could be the minimum budget for a sensible improvement?


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## wst3 (May 25, 2020)

I concur - for 100 Euro she is not going to do better than the phone... which really isn't bad, a little too much room, which can be "fixed" through placement.

As far as recording directly to the phone, not sure that would be my first choice, but it can be done.

You didn't mention the type of phone, if it is an iPhone I can wholeheartedly recommend the iAudioInterface2 from StudioSixDigital, current price is $479 USD, it goes on sale for around $400 a couple times a year. I have yet to use any other iPhone audio interface that I trusted. This is both a stereo microphone preamplifier and an audio interface, and it can connect to devices using USB or Lightning. I use it with my laptop for location recording when I am feeling lazy.

Given that's already considerably beyond her budget I'd probably recommend a pair of Shure KSM-32s, which are also around $550 each. As an alternative, a pair of KSM-137s (small capsule cardiod) would be around $600. 

Clearly a steep price for an improvement. It would be an improvement, but if she is doing this for on-line lessons it seems to me entirely necessary.


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## Rory (May 25, 2020)

I agree with @RonOrchComp that the sound, as I also said in my first post, is OK as it is. I also agree that it isn't obvious that she will get better sound for Euro 100.

That said, RODE has just released a new mike, the RODE NT-USB Mini, that can be plugged directly into a computer, tablet or phone that may be worth considering. The price is US$99. If your friend is using an iPhone, she would also need Apple's Camera Connection Kit as an adapter. Perhaps there's a shop in Palermo where she could try out the mike, or she could order from an online retailer with a good returns policy.

She might also be able to purchase a portable Tascam or Zoom recorder second-hand for about that price, which is definitely worth considering. As I said above, she would have to sync the audio with any video (not an issue with her still image videos), but this isn't hard.

Here is the RODE web page: http://www.rode.com/microphones/nt-usb_mini

Curtis Judd, who knows what he's talking about, reviewed the mike quite favourably a few weeks ago:


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## Rory (May 25, 2020)

Knomes said:


> Ah that's cool. Did you like your time there?



I loved living in Sicily and I miss it a lot.


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## wst3 (May 26, 2020)

I have not had the chance to try the new Rode USB microphone. I have, however, used a few others, going all the way back to the original CAD USB microphone. None of them have measured up for me.

It seems odd, they really should work, but to my ears they simply do not handle transients well, and transients are part of the magic, even for a piano, and especially for a good piano played well.

A USB device powered over the bus will have, at most, a 5V power supply, and these days more likely a 3.3V power supply. Which really should be sufficient, if not ideal, for a microphone level signal.

Here's the math: a 5V supply can reach a maximum analog signal level of approximately 8dBV. In theory that's at nearly 70dB above what the capsule likely genebrates. Even at 3.3V the maximum output is a little over 4dBV, again it should be more than enough headroom. Except they do not publish the capsule sensitivity, only the maximum input, from which - if I were not lazy - I could probably deduce the sensitivity. Alas, I am lazy, although now I'm also a little curious.

Anyway, on paper these things should work well, they don't need to scale the analog signal because the converter is running off the same power supply (this is more of a problem than you might imagine, I've designed a couple A/D converters).

And yet, the few I've tried did not sound as good as I expected them too. Or maybe wanted them to?

One exception, Shure makes an inline A/D converter for their microphones, it is powered by the USB bus, and every microphone I've tried sounded decidedly different when using it, but not quite as muffled (I hate dancing about architecture - I mean talking about audio) as when I plug them into a real preamplifier. Disclaimer - the microphones and preamplifier in question each cost a LOT more than the entire USB microphone, and while price is not a great indicator, there are differences.


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## pderbidge (May 26, 2020)

I guess I'm the only one who thinks that the recordings are not good and even distracting. To clarify, the tone sounds ok but the artifacting going on is distracting. At first I thought maybe she had some loud birds in the background chirping but then noticed that during breaks the sound went away. I do wonder if it's the compression settings being used on the phone but if there was no way to fix that then I would dare say that an upgrade is warranted. There are a few well kept secrets out there that are budget friendly concerning getting a decent mic, but with a decent mic she will need an interface that works with her recording gear. If her recording gear is her phone or an ipad then IK Multimedia makes a lot of products that allow high quality mic's to be input to a Phone or tablet but then she will likely need to learn a new app for recording those sessions.

Some good mics under $50 can be had from these guys https://www.iskproaudio.com/collections/microphones

I recently picked up some great mic's at $100 a piece from this guy http://www.3uaudio.com/index.asp
He does not sell through distribution but rather direct, if you email him, or through Ebay where you can find a lot of his mics listed. There is a whole gearslutz thread on these mics with sound demos from users. I think the CM100's could work if you want a stereo pair or The Black CM1 or Teal CM1 if you wanted a large condenser. I like these mics much more than other budget mics like the MXL mics. To give you an idea of the quality, the Teal and Black CM1 I bought are comparable in build quality and sound quality to $300 to $600 mics I've tried. Thes CM1's are transformor-less mics. You can get mics with a transformer for around $300 which is unheard of. They also have some great Tube Mics but I'm not sure yet if I prefer the ISK tube mic over the 3U audio ones but I'm not desperate for a tube mic anytime soon. 

Unfortunately, even with these budget options her budget is going to have to exceed $100 since I believe a decent interface alone will likely be $100.

I hope this helps.


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## Rory (May 26, 2020)

For about Euro 100, the realistic options are a USB mike such as the new RODE NT-USB Mini or a standalone recorder with built-in mike from Tascam or Zoom. I'm quite sure that the second option will improve sound.

Zoom/Tascam recorders are extremely popular and should be easy to purchase second-hand.

This two-track Zoom H1N sells for US$120 new: https://www.zoom.co.jp/products/field-video-recording/field-recording/h1n-handy-recorder

Zoom's four track, more sophisticated H4N Pro is US$180: https://www.zoom.co.jp/products/field-video-recording/field-recording/h4n-pro

Curtis Judd has detailed reviews of most of these products on YouTube. He is a sound professional, knows what he's talking about and doesn't look down his nose at consumer gear. Julian Krause also has an informative YouTube channel.

As someone who just spent a week using an $8400 Neumann KU100, I think that it's important to keep in mind that many people get quite good results from fairly inexpensive gear.


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## peladio (May 26, 2020)

Knomes said:


> I asked her about the budget, she said that she would like to keep the thing under 100 euros.



Zoom H1n is surprisingly great and very affordable..it's also stereo. This was recorded with H1 which is the older one..H1n should be even better..


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## Rory (May 26, 2020)

peladio said:


> Zoom H1n is surprisingly great and very affordable..it's also stereo. This was recorded with H1 which is the older one..H1n should be even better..




Excellent contribution. Worth noting this sentence in the YouTube description: "We're at a college, and the vent was on... you might hear a low hum in the background..."


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## rhizomusicosmos (May 26, 2020)

If she uses an iPhone there are a few add-on mics available:








Best Microphones For iPhone & iPad (Both Lightning & TRRS)


Improve your sound quality when recording on your iPhone or iPad with these small and light (but high-quality) external iPhone mics!




www.podcastinsights.com


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## Knomes (May 27, 2020)

peladio said:


> Zoom H1n is surprisingly great and very affordable..it's also stereo. This was recorded with H1 which is the older one..H1n should be even better..




Thanks, at the moment, to me, this seems the best option for that budget!


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## Knomes (May 27, 2020)

Thank you all for your contribution!
I asked about the phone, it a Huawei, not an I-phone.


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