# Bruckner, Seventh Symphony - Scherzo



## ptram (Jan 6, 2020)

Hi,

I rendered the first ninety bars of Bruckner's monumental piece. This project was started to check the brass in the VSL Synchronized Special Edition, and see how "thin" they were.

After several hours on this piece I need some silence, before I can not only understand how successful I was in making it credible, but also give my ears enough rest from this apocalyptic sound!

http://www.studio-magazine.com/music/musichealtri/bruckner/Bruckner-Sinfonia-7-Scherzo-VSLSE.aif (Bruckner - Seventh Symphony - Scherzo (VSL SynSE)) (AIFF)
Bruckner - Seventh Symphony - Scherzo (VSL SynSE) (MP3)

EDIT: This is the version with the full VSL library, made after editing the SE version:

http://www.studio-magazine.com/music/musichealtri/bruckner/Bruckner-Sinfonia-7-Scherzo-VSL.aif (Bruckner - Seventh Symphony - Scherzo (VSL Full)) (AIFF)
Bruckner - Seventh Symphony - Scherzo (VSL Full) (MP3)

Paolo


----------



## CT (Jan 6, 2020)

Hi Paolo. I think *you* were very successful here, in that there's a musicality and sensitivity to how you've handled this excerpt. As for the samples themselves, I can only say that I think they are not up to the task.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jan 6, 2020)

I love the VSL products. I use them a lot. Because they start out very dry, it is way too easy to overcompensate with too much reverb. If you can decrease the amount of reverb substantially, I think you will be happier with the results.

The track below is 100% VSL instruments. Notice how at times there is the exact same buildup of too much reverb artifacts just like you are experiencing. 



I will share more about my conclusions if you wish.


----------



## ptram (Jan 6, 2020)

Paul, thank you very much for listening. Your Dvorak is fantastic!

Yes, I agree my mockup has too much reverb and lacks clarity. I have to see if it because of the convolution reverb in each instrument, or the final algorithmic one. In general, I find the Synchron and Synchronized libraries to have, by default, too much reverb for my taste.



Paul T McGraw said:


> I will share more about my conclusions if you wish.



I would be delighted! Please do it!

Paolo

EDIT: I reduced the final MIRacle algorithmic reverb in the mix. I don't know if it is enough, but now it seems much clearer than before.


----------



## ptram (Jan 6, 2020)

miket said:


> As for the samples themselves, I can only say that I think they are not up to the task.


Mike, thank you for lending me your ears! There are other discussions comparing libraries for their own merits. May I instead ask you what would you use, nowadays, to create a mockup of this type of music?

When listening to the demos, or trying the sounds myself, I can only think to VSL or Orchestral Tools for classical music. Maybe Chris Hein. Not even Spitfire or Cinesamples, whose character I find leaning towards the cinematic or (in the case of Spitfire) some sort of modern ambient/new-age orchestral music.

Paolo


----------



## CT (Jan 6, 2020)

ptram said:


> May I instead ask you what would you use, nowadays, to create a mockup of this type of music?



That's the million dollar question, isn't it?

I would expect that Orchestral Tools and Spitfire would be the strongest candidates. I agree that Cinesamples might not have the right character, but that may not make as much of a difference as one would think, in the end. I'm not sure I've ever heard any attempts at mocking-up a classical piece with Cinesamples.

Spitfire's orchestras sound the most authentically "classical" to me of any available options, at least, in Andy Blaney's hands. OT is a close second. Interesting how we hear these things differently; could even have to do with what classical labels and which orchestras we have heard the most over the years!

In any case, this is the kind of music that shows a virtual orchestra's true colors, and even the best available today is probably not going to be the vibrant rainbow we hope for when confronted with something like Bruckner.

You did mention specifically your desire to test out the brass, and I've always found that to be the weakest link in the VSL equation. It would be interesting to hear Berlin Brass, with its individual players, tackle this.


----------



## CT (Jan 6, 2020)

Here are a couple of the most impressive (to me, at least) virtual brass demos out there, just for reference.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jan 7, 2020)

I agree with @miket that the brass is the weak link for VSL. The VSL brass works great for classical chamber music, where only 5 or 6 instruments are employed. In an orchestral context, the VSL brass does not work so well.

*My other conclusions:*

The VSL woodwinds are wonderful. Synchron Strings, with the updates and changes that have been made, have breathed new life into the VSL strings lineup. You can mix Synchron Strings with VSL Orchestral Strings and get a terrific result.

For any of the VSL dry samples, keep the wet/dry ratio between .25 and .30 for best results. 

I have also experimented with using Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra to do a mockup of the Dvorak 9th Symphony movement II. It sounds very believable to me, and it is all Spitfire. You can find it in my Soundcloud tracks.

I hate it that so many people seem to hate VSL products. But the truth is that it is much easier to get a better overall sound with wet libraries.


----------



## ptram (Jan 7, 2020)

Paul T McGraw said:


> The VSL brass works great for classical chamber music, where only 5 or 6 instruments are employed. In an orchestral context, the VSL brass does not work so well.


Paul, did you have an opportunity to also work with Dimension Brass? Do they make achieving a more credible ensemble sound easier?

Paolo


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jan 8, 2020)

Hi Paolo,

I do own Dimension Brass (not the synchronized, just the original) and I used it in the mockup of the Dvorak 9th IV movement that I linked to above for the horns and tenor trombones. When the horns had an exposed solo part, I used the original VSL triple horn. I used VSL Bass Trombone and VSL Tuba. 

The Dimension brass does help a LOT to get a more realistic sound. In an exposed solo, they are not quite as convincing as the original solo instruments IMHO, but they are very good.

Paul


----------



## ptram (Jan 8, 2020)

miket said:


> Interesting how we hear these things differently; could even have to do with what classical labels and which orchestras we have heard the most over the years!


I agree that the type of sound we have grown with can influence our choices as composers. Most part of my LP and CD collection is probably made of DG recordings, many of them with the Wiener Philharmoniker playing. No wonder I feel the "Viennese" sound as the most natural.

Between the Spitfire and OT examples you posted, OT sounds the most "classical" to me. And the Berliner Philharmoniker, together with the Dresdner, are the other orchestras I frequented most often. The Spitfire example continues to bring me to the cinema. Who knows why?

As for the brass sound, I can't but think to the old debate between the Chicago Symphony and the Boston Symphony ones in the golden age of the classical music labels. Not surprising, I've always been a BSO type of kid.

Paolo


----------



## CT (Jan 8, 2020)

Ah yes, DG. I always find myself slightly preferring the sound of labels like Chandos, BIS, Hyperion... which do often feature British groups.  

I suppose if someone captured the NY Philharmonic as a virtual orchestra, it would sound perfect to me.


----------



## ptram (Jan 8, 2020)

miket said:


> I suppose if someone captured the NY Philharmonic as a virtual orchestra, it would sound perfect to me.


The NYC sound could be Heavyocity's. Cold, stylish, bold, adventurous.

Paolo


----------



## Mark Schmieder (Jan 8, 2020)

Never been a fan of the NYP sound (or Philadelphia, and slightly less so for Chicago), and now that I have seen info that they tune higher, that may be one cause. Prefer british sound overall, alongside Berlin and Scandianvian ensembles, then Eastern European (which includes Vienna), and some French orchestras. In the US, I prefer the sound of SF, Boston, Cleveland, LA, Denver, Seattle, maybe St. Louis at times. VSL provides several flavours, which I find very useful. I do find the Vienna-specific instrument variants can be a bit thin. Sometimes that's OK though.


----------



## CT (Jan 8, 2020)

I do always like the sound of the Berlin Philharmonic. When I daydream about working with real orchestras, I think they make frequent appearances.


----------



## ptram (Jan 10, 2020)

Something very interesting one can do is to mess with the EQ. Synchron Player allows for a choice of presets (close, classic, distant), and an easy way to adjust the EQ, making the sound brighter and more 'brassy'. The brass might not be made to shine, but maybe they can be put in a shiny light.

Paolo


----------



## Mark Schmieder (Jan 10, 2020)

So far, I have mostly tweaked existing EQ presets in Synchron Player and Synchron Pianos, as it seems like it could be a rabbit-hole that would destroy my productivity and take endless hours of cross-comparisons vs. waiting for the production stage with plug-ins. But of course that's no substitute from individually processing the separate mics in the multi-mic setup. Maybe it deserves a topic of its own though? I haven't really seen it discussed much (if at all) on this forum yet, and haven't checked VSL's forums for such talk.


----------



## ptram (Jan 24, 2020)

And this is the version made with the full version VSL. A lot more work, due to much more finesse to which one has to take care of.

This is the last rehearsal before the dress rehearsal.

http://www.studio-magazine.com/music/musichealtri/bruckner/Bruckner-Sinfonia-7-Scherzo-VSL.aif (Bruckner - Seventh Symphony - Scherzo (VSL Full)) (AIFF)

Bruckner - Seventh Symphony - Scherzo (VSL Full) (MP3)

These are only the brass:

http://www.studio-magazine.com/music/musichealtri/bruckner/Bruckner-Sinfonia-7-Scherzo-VSL-Brass_only.aif (Bruckner - Seventh Symphony - Scherzo (Brass only)) (AIFF)

Paolo


----------



## Franklin (Jan 24, 2020)

I don't know if any of you have experienced this, but in general vst library-instruments sound disembodied, no air around them. In a concert hall you experience depth and even with your eys closed you can hear the direction from where the sound is coming from. This sound- image should also be heard in recordings. It feels like when adding reverb, it's just reverb, but the sound-image stays flat. Listen to a Chesky record and you'll know what I mean.

Nonetheless, great mockups.


----------



## ptram (Jan 24, 2020)

Franklin said:


> I don't know if any of you have experienced this, but in general vst library-instruments sound disembodied, no air around them.


Oh, maybe I removed any virtual air by adding a limiter on the final bus. I know this shouldn't be done, but I wanted more muscles than air!

Here is it without final reverb and limiting. It should sound more transparent:

http://www.studio-magazine.com/music/musichealtri/bruckner/Bruckner-Sinfonia-7-Scherzo-VSL-MIR_only.aif (Bruckner - Seventh Symphony - Scherzo (no final FX)) (AIFF)

Thank you for listening!

Paolo

EDIT: There is a compromise that is not a compromise: use parallel compression. In Logic, this can be easily be done by mixing the Input and Output signals right in the plugin. The result is an even sound, with all the air left intact.


----------



## Franklin (Jan 24, 2020)

Definately sounds better Paolo. I have lots of VST libraries and also from VSL which I think sound great. My remark was meant in general. VST libraries come close to the real thing, but just aren't there yet and at the same time I think your effort to share your mockup is just great so thanks for sharing!

Franklin


----------



## brenneisen (Jan 24, 2020)

ptram said:


> The NYC sound could be Heavyocity's



except that they recorded in LA, with LA players...


----------



## ptram (Jan 25, 2020)

brenneisen said:


> except that they recorded in LA, with LA players...


Not everything, it seems.

"Heavyocity once again returned to the intimate confines of Reservoir Studios in NYC for Rhythmic Textures"

Paolo


----------



## ptram (Jul 17, 2021)

I've redone my old mockup in Dorico. This is the first version of it, with the score performed by NotePerformer.

Bruckner - Seventh Symphony - Scherzo (NP)

I know I should insert some hidden staccato/portato articulation, to correctly interpret some of the notes.

Paolo


----------

