# What's this H thing again in European music notation?



## RiffWraith (Dec 2, 2014)

I think it's European, no? If not, forgive me... :oops: 

I have a project I am doing... the chord progression is 

c# g# H c#

What is this H thing about again?

Help - I am American!!!! :lol:


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## tokatila (Dec 2, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Tue Dec 02 said:


> I think it's European, no? If not, forgive me... :oops:
> 
> I have a project I am doing... the chord progression is
> 
> ...



B


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## RiffWraith (Dec 2, 2014)

Thanks.

Why is B H? Why not just say B?


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## tokatila (Dec 2, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Tue Dec 02 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Why is B H? Why not just say B?



It was B after Bach, Brahms and Beethoven but we changed it to H in order to celebrate Hans Zimmer. Why not Z? Some fellow named Jay seems to have trademarked it.


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## RiffWraith (Dec 2, 2014)

tokatila @ Wed Dec 03 said:


> It was B after Bach, Brahms and Beethoven but we changed it to H in order to celebrate Hans Zimmer.



Well, that makes perfect sense! :lol:


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## Lawson. (Dec 2, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Tue Dec 02 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Why is B H? Why not just say B?



Bb was originally labeled B and B was H IIRC.


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## KEnK (Dec 2, 2014)

I used to work w/ a German bassist
He was a very literate musician.
Whenever I would say "B" he would play a "Bb".
Gradually I learned to say "H".
But that actually made matters worse,
because it became less clear which B I was referring to
whenever I said "B". We worked it out though. :wink: 

He was always embarrassed about that convention,
along w/ German grammar structure and his perfect English.

He was and is a great bassist though.

k


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## RiffWraith (Dec 2, 2014)

Lawson. @ Wed Dec 03 said:


> Bb was originally labeled B



Well, that makes perfect sense as well!!!

Did they label Gb 'B#'? 'Cause that would make _absolute perfect _sense!


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## bryla (Dec 2, 2014)

Once upon a time the only tones we had were a b c d e f g. Musicians built hexatonic scales resembling our major scales from c: c d e f g a, and from g: g a b c d e. 

They found that by lowering b a bit you could have the same scale from f. This is the origin of the three clefs. 

But now they had 8 notes. A b(flat) b(sharp) c d e f g. 

To show the difference they used a rounded b for the low note and a square b for the high note. This was the first accidental. 

Since then we use a round b for lowering notes and a square b with an extra right bottom leg for naturals. By adding a left bottom leg, a right top arm and two lines across we got the sharp sign. 

Anyway, the rounded and the square b's confused German scholars of the Renaissance and they mistook the square b for an open h. Thus making the natural note an h and the flat note a b. 

We now try to correct corrupted minds and are reinstating the traditional lettering. 

On a side note: the rounded b was called b-molle and the sharp was b-durum which later became the Germanic version of minor and major: moll and dur


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## Hannes_F (Dec 2, 2014)

Thank you bryla, finally some reason here.

We Germans usually adapt to the anglo-american system without much fuss when working in international mode not because it is necessarily better but because we are polite people  and regarding jazz and pop music everything american is in highest regard here (rightfully so). Nevertheless Bach, Mozart and Beethoven somehow managed to write some acceptable music with B and H.


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## bryla (Dec 2, 2014)

You're welcome, Hannes. This is a subject I've had to research thoroughly teaching theory in Denmark and dealing with a lot of students who were brought up with a musical alphabet of c d e f g a h. As I was my self.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 2, 2014)

As Bryla said.

But one should never forget that the B-A-C-H (-C#-D) motive that Bach used in some of this works wouldn't have been possible with the american names. Bb-A-C-B is just not the same....


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## germancomponist (Dec 2, 2014)

KEnK @ Tue Dec 02 said:


> I used to work w/ a German bassist
> He was a very literate musician.
> Whenever I would say "B" he would play a "Bb".
> Gradually I learned to say "H".
> ...





I never cared about this cdefgah thing.... ..


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## KEnK (Dec 2, 2014)

bryla @ Tue Dec 02 said:


> Once upon a time...


Thanks for that history lesson!

Always wonder why Bb wasn't called H.
Now I know
:wink: 

k


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## RiffWraith (Dec 2, 2014)

KEnK @ Wed Dec 03 said:


> bryla @ Tue Dec 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Once upon a time...
> ...



+1 

Thanks!


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## G.R. Baumann (Dec 2, 2014)

tokatila @ Tue Dec 02 said:


> RiffWraith @ Tue Dec 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks.
> ...



Hahahaha! :lol: 

Very good!!!!!!!!


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## Lawson. (Dec 2, 2014)

bryla @ Tue Dec 02 said:


> Once upon a time the only tones we had were a b c d e f g. Musicians built hexatonic scales resembling our major scales from c: c d e f g a, and from g: g a b c d e.
> 
> They found that by lowering b a bit you could have the same scale from f. This is the origin of the three clefs.
> 
> ...



That was fascinating! I didn't know any of that.


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## Luca Capozzi (Dec 2, 2014)

tokatila @ Tue Dec 02 said:


> RiffWraith @ Tue Dec 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks.
> ...



lol I just woke up and this made my day :mrgreen: THANK YOU!


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## bryla (Dec 3, 2014)

Lawson, Jeff and Kenk: Happy to shed some light. One of my hobbies is 'music etymology' and I try to track down the origin of all the things in music that I come across 

It also spills over to general etymology – I'm a geek about that.


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## Udo (Dec 3, 2014)

It's also known as Si (or Ti) of course.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 4, 2014)

Udo @ Thu Dec 04 said:


> It's also known as Si (or Ti) of course.



I wanted to ask how you deal with Bb and B (or B and H) in this system and found that you use So and Si, is that correct?


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## Udo (Dec 4, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Thu Dec 04 said:


> Udo @ Thu Dec 04 said:
> 
> 
> > It's also known as Si (or Ti) of course.
> ...



I suggest you check up on solfège, i.e. the "do, re, mi, ....", etc. As you'll see, it can get rather confusing with fixed or movable "do" and things also vary by country.

Didn't you learn do re mi ... at primary school in Germany?


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## Hannes_F (Dec 4, 2014)

Udo @ Thu Dec 04 said:


> Didn't you learn do re mi ... at primary school in Germany?



Thanks for the link. It says the Bb can be called like Te, Se, Sa or Ba (among others). Hmmm ... 

I can't really remember about it in primary school. But it was used in secondary school and at conservatory for singing scales in voice training. However I came never along a situation where it was used deeply or in detail, so up to now I simply perceived it as a relative 7 notes system. It would be interesting to know how it works when used in practise as the primary system. I bet kids learn earlier to hear what the root note is


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 4, 2014)

> This is the origin of the three clefs



Treble, bass, and hurtsmybrain?

(That was interesting, bryla.)


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## bryla (Dec 4, 2014)

and for left over string players!


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## murrthecat (Dec 4, 2014)

In 'European' notation, with a different meaning though, there is also the H used by Schoenberg and the Vienna school to indicate the principal line in some of their pieces (hauptstimme) as opposed to N for the secondary line (nebenstimme).


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## Living Fossil (Dec 4, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Dec 04 said:


> > This is the origin of the three clefs
> 
> 
> 
> Treble, bass, and hurtsmybrain?




It would be more accurate to speak of three kinds of clefs, relating to c, f, and as the latest invention relating to g.

the most known c-keys are the soprano key (which Bach used for the upper voice when writing for clavier), the alto key (used for viola) and the tenor key (celli in higher register e.g.). [there were two additional c-keys, but they are not very common anymore]

The "original" f-key- the "baritone-key" - had the f refering to the middle line (which would be d in the usuals bass-key), but on the long run the bass-key was stronger.

the so called g-clef was invented later, for the purpose of instruments with a higher range (upwards).


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## Living Fossil (Dec 4, 2014)

bryla @ Tue Dec 02 said:


> Once upon a time the only tones we had were a b c d e f g. Musicians built hexatonic scales resembling our major scales from c: c d e f g a, and from g: g a b c d e.
> 
> They found that by lowering b a bit you could have the same scale from f. This is the origin of the three clefs.



While the Lydian was in fact used as a de-facto ionian (with b) the main reason for using Bb was to avoid the tritone in tetrachords, as it would be in f-g-a-b, because this intervall was considered a strong dissonance (and was note so easy to intonate).
But this could also occur in other - minor - keys.
There was a rule, which was:
"una nota sopra la semper est canendum fa".

The main gender of G as "major" remained unclear for a very long time, by the way.
Even Mattheson (a contemporary of Bach) still refers to the ambiguity of "this key that can be major or minor".


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## bryla (Dec 4, 2014)

the hexachords originated long before the Lydian. For a long time around the time of Guido there was the natural hexachord from c, the hard (durum) hexachord from g and the soft (molle) from f.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 4, 2014)

bryla @ Thu Dec 04 said:


> the hexachords originated long before the Lydian. For a long time around the time of Guido there was the natural hexachord from c, the hard (durum) hexachord from g and the soft (molle) from f.



@bryla:
Hexa- and heptatonic concepts [i think it's better to use this instead of the term "scales"] pretty much coexisted in fact. 
The "lydian" is called "Tritus" in Guido di Arezzo's Micrologus.


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## thesteelydane (Oct 23, 2015)

As Bryla I was brought up in Denmark and learned the B and H as the most natural thing in the world from age 8. It wasn't until highschool when I had to do a project with a jazz trumpeter that I discovered there was another and simpler system. If you tell any Danish pro symphony orchestra to play a B, the will play a B flat. I feel comfortable switching between the two names now, depending on what I'm reading or who I'm working with, but I still find the naming of notes in the system I learned way easier and quicker than tucking flat, sharp or natural on the end of a note name. I guess it's derived from German, but I learned from day one to call a D# "Dis", and a Db for "Des". D double sharp is "Dis-is" and D double flat is "Des-es". Simple and effective, as long as you remember the B-H thing. I still think in these names when writing and arranging. It's just easier for me.


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## Saxer (Oct 24, 2015)

My (German) inner voice tells me the German note and chord names when I read the American.
When I see B7 I read H-sieben (sounds: _Hah-Zeebn_) and when I see Bbm/Db I read B-moll mit Des im Bass (sounds: _Beh moll mit Das im Bus_). If someone wants me to notate H7 I automatically write B7. I'm so used to that I even wrote on a list of music tracks "Bb my Baby" instead of "Be my Baby". I had to laugh about that myself: B B (_Hah Hah_).


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## mc_deli (Oct 24, 2015)

Does my nut playing in bands up here in the frozen swamp land when the players want to play H, pronounced "haw". I'm like "nooo there is no aitch in music". It hurts. 

I also understand it is deemed correct to use H in some orchestral writing contexts?


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