# Romantic symphony



## WilliamKersten

I recently did a new recording of my Romantic Symphony with VSL, using a massive amount of doubling in strings, woodwinds and brass. One thing that was difficult was creating divisi in the 8-horn ensemble, which involved doubling without phasing solo and Dimension horns. I completed the notated score for this also which is at SMP Press

*<<Later Edit>>* Sorry, I wish to delete the thread but can't.


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## WilliamKersten

Sorry, deleted.


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## WilliamKersten

Edited: Sorry for the post roughly equivalent to a bawling infant  
(actually infants usually have justification for bawling, unlike me)


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## CT

I like Hans Zimmer, and symphonic compositions, and was going to follow along with the score while listening to this, but that took a turn, huh? Jeez....


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## I like music

WilliamKersten said:


> I recently did a new recording of my Romantic Symphony with VSL, using a massive amount of doubling in strings, woodwinds and brass. One thing that was difficult was creating divisi in the 8-horn ensemble, which involved doubling without phasing solo and Dimension horns. I completed the notated score for this also which is at SMP Press



Really, really, really enjoyed it. Fantastic work. The music, but also the mocking up skills.

I don't dare ask how much work went into this.

I will however say that when you responded to the lack of responses, it would have just put people off. Anyways, beyond that I'll only comment on the music going forward.

Keep the music going. All VSL? _Only_ VSL? Wow, what an incredible sounding library, and good skills to make it sing too!


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## OleJoergensen

Thank you for sharing.

I did listen to your Romantic symphony( every 38 minutes) and enjoyed it a lot, especially the 2 first movements, many beautiful themes and a lot of dramatic stuff. Some of the dramatic stuff reminds me a little bit of Mahler (not the harmonic stuff). 
I like the big symphonic sound as-well as the solo parts.

Your midi performance is very good! It must have taken month of work to compose, notate and midi mock up.

It is the first time I do like Vsl strings. Your use of Vsl, al groups, sounds really good.


I would love to hear a live recording, being among the audience in a concert hall- I think it will be a great experience!

Remember the most forum members are busy with their own work.
38 minutes is a long time to take out of a busy day.


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## Alex Fraser

This is indeed an impressive and epic work - although I confess I haven't listened to anything near the full thing as I have music to write myself today.  Can't wait to hear what else you post to the forum.

Quick tip: Perhaps you'd get more thread views if you mentioned this was created using 100% VSL in the thread title. This forum is mainly concerned with VI library use and you'd get more interest from the VSL fans for starters.


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## Zero&One

I listened to it all. Very very good and way beyond my skill level, I thoroughly enjoyed every part the piece.
Total respect for the amount of time and skill this involved.

Maybe insulting the forum isn't the best way to introduce yourself and music though? I understand in a world of likes, thumbs, and comments it's sometimes difficult. Maybe posting a '***bump for feedback' would sound less the world revolves around me.

Thanks for the post and hopefully more to come!


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## yellowtone

Agreed with all the above comments, the work is amazing and it WOULD be super cool to hear this played by a live orchestra. The fact that it's 100% VSL is really impressive, and the doubling "Berlioz" sound is super. Even more impressive if I understand correctly that this is completely original piece? Hope you can share more of your work in the future, this is top notch.

That said, definitely take a look at previous composition threads, it's very rare that people respond in the first day or two as they're super busy and also typically responding to some of the more "urgent" threads - like when is the next library coming out and does it have divisi auto-gain poly-phonic legato sata-drive SSD wet/dry toggle AI and full mastering capabilities.  The breadth and depth of composers and midi-manipulators here is absolutely incredible... lots to be learned and shared, please play nice.


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## Dave Connor

I listened to William's entire work late evening over the weekend. I'm familiar with it and have always liked it. Incredibly rare to hear a long form work these days and pulling them off even rarer still. This is a very thoughtful, well handled work by a serious composer who understand the symphonic world. I hope many more people listen and are even influenced in hearing the large gesture instead of the three minute cue. Always nice to hear from William Kersten!


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## WilliamKersten

Dave Connor said:


> I listened to William's entire work late evening over the weekend. I'm familiar with it and have always liked it. Incredibly rare to hear a long form work these days and pulling them off even rarer still. This is a very thoughtful, well handled work by a serious composer who understand the symphonic world. I hope many more people listen and are even influenced in hearing the large gesture instead of the three minute cue. Always nice to hear from William Kersten!


Apologies for my whiny impatient attitude. It's true people have music of their own to work on! I appreciate these great comments immensely.


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## WilliamKersten

I like music said:


> Really, really, really enjoyed it. Fantastic work. The music, but also the mocking up skills.
> 
> I don't dare ask how much work went into this.
> 
> I will however say that when you responded to the lack of responses, it would have just put people off. Anyways, beyond that I'll only comment on the music going forward.
> 
> Keep the music going. All VSL? _Only_ VSL? Wow, what an incredible sounding library, and good skills to make it sing too!


Thanks, I like music, you're right about putting people off! I have great skills at that


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## WilliamKersten

OleJoergensen said:


> Thank you for sharing.
> 
> I did listen to your Romantic symphony( every 38 minutes) and enjoyed it a lot, especially the 2 first movements, many beautiful themes and a lot of dramatic stuff. Some of the dramatic stuff reminds me a little bit of Mahler (not the harmonic stuff).
> I like the big symphonic sound as-well as the solo parts.
> 
> Your midi performance is very good! It must have taken month of work to compose, notate and midi mock up.
> 
> It is the first time I do like Vsl strings. Your use of Vsl, al groups, sounds really good.
> 
> 
> I would love to hear a live recording, being among the audience in a concert hall- I think it will be a great experience!
> 
> Remember the most forum members are busy with their own work.
> 38 minutes is a long time to take out of a busy day.


Ole, thanks very much. I'm making an attempt to get a live performance but it's next to impossible unless you have something to blackmail a conductor with ...


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## WilliamKersten

Alex Fraser said:


> This is indeed an impressive and epic work - although I confess I haven't listened to anything near the full thing as I have music to write myself today.  Can't wait to hear what else you post to the forum.
> 
> Quick tip: Perhaps you'd get more thread views if you mentioned this was created using 100% VSL in the thread title. This forum is mainly concerned with VI library use and you'd get more interest from the VSL fans for starters.


Alex thanks that's a good idea


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## WilliamKersten

James H said:


> I listened to it all. Very very good and way beyond my skill level, I thoroughly enjoyed every part the piece.
> Total respect for the amount of time and skill this involved.
> 
> Maybe insulting the forum isn't the best way to introduce yourself and music though? I understand in a world of likes, thumbs, and comments it's sometimes difficult. Maybe posting a '***bump for feedback' would sound less the world revolves around me.
> 
> Thanks for the post and hopefully more to come!


James thank you and you're right about the insulting!


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## WilliamKersten

yellowtone said:


> Agreed with all the above comments, the work is amazing and it WOULD be super cool to hear this played by a live orchestra. The fact that it's 100% VSL is really impressive, and the doubling "Berlioz" sound is super. Even more impressive if I understand correctly that this is completely original piece? Hope you can share more of your work in the future, this is top notch.
> 
> That said, definitely take a look at previous composition threads, it's very rare that people respond in the first day or two as they're super busy and also typically responding to some of the more "urgent" threads - like when is the next library coming out and does it have divisi auto-gain poly-phonic legato sata-drive SSD wet/dry toggle AI and full mastering capabilities.  The breadth and depth of composers and midi-manipulators here is absolutely incredible... lots to be learned and shared, please play nice.


Yellowtone thanks I appreciate that


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## WilliamKersten

Dave Connor said:


> I listened to William's entire work late evening over the weekend. I'm familiar with it and have always liked it. Incredibly rare to hear a long form work these days and pulling them off even rarer still. This is a very thoughtful, well handled work by a serious composer who understand the symphonic world. I hope many more people listen and are even influenced in hearing the large gesture instead of the three minute cue. Always nice to hear from William Kersten!


Thanks Dave it is great to hear from you!


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## ka00

This is wonderful, William. Congrats and thank you for sharing.


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## MartinH.

WilliamKersten said:


> I recently did a new recording of my Romantic Symphony with VSL, using a massive amount of doubling in strings, woodwinds and brass. One thing that was difficult was creating divisi in the 8-horn ensemble, which involved doubling without phasing solo and Dimension horns. I completed the notated score for this also which is at SMP Press



Wow, this is fantastic work! I listened to the full symphony and thoroughly enjoyed it! Outstanding!

Maybe head over to http://redbanned.com/ and share it there too (but please give them a week or two to reply because the forum is much much smaller and much less active and everyone there is very busy with their own music, but percentage-wise you'll finde a much greater number of users there working on and appreciating this kind of long-form composition.

Congratulations and you can be proud of yourself. The mockup is superb too.


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## WilliamKersten

ka00 said:


> This is wonderful, William. Congrats and thank you for sharing.





ka00 said:


> This is wonderful, William. Congrats and thank you for sharing.


thanks very much ka00


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## WilliamKersten

MartinH. said:


> Wow, this is fantastic work! I listened to the full symphony and thoroughly enjoyed it! Outstanding!
> 
> Maybe head over to http://redbanned.com/ and share it there too (but please give them a week or two to reply because the forum is much much smaller and much less active and everyone there is very busy with their own music, but percentage-wise you'll finde a much greater number of users there working on and appreciating this kind of long-form composition.
> 
> Congratulations and you can be proud of yourself. The mockup is superb too.


thanks so much Martin H, I appreciate that tip also!


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## CT

I don't believe the VSL sound will *ever* do it for me (though after all, I'm one of those Zimmer fans), but the obvious integrity of the music here keeps it all afloat. It's an impressive composition. 

A live performance would be great, and I wish you the best of luck with getting one to happen.

As for Mike Verta's forum... I've thought about poking my head in there a few times because he's such a stand-up guy, but I get the impression it has some issues and "colorful characters" of its own. I could be totally mistaken though.


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## Jdiggity1

miket said:


> I don't believe the VSL sound will *ever* do it for me (though after all, I'm one of those Zimmer fans), but the obvious integrity of the music here keeps it all afloat. It's an impressive composition.
> 
> A live performance would be great, and I wish you the best of luck with getting one to happen.
> 
> As for Mike Verta's forum... I've thought about poking my head in there a few times because he's such a stand-up guy, but I get the impression it has some issues and "colorful characters" of its own. I could be totally mistaken though.


Aint nowhere on the internet without some colorful characters these days


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## BlackDorito

miket said:


> I could be totally mistaken though.


You are not mistaken.


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## damcry

Fantastic work !
Just subscribed to your Youtube channel, by the way ...
Moreover all the sheets music are available at SMP: a goldmine !!
Thanks


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## WilliamKersten

damcry, thanks! The notated score with player's parts was as hard to do as the MIDI! The typo corrections are endless. There are probably still some in there though I went over it repeatedly.


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## WilliamKersten

miket said:


> I don't believe the VSL sound will *ever* do it for me (though after all, I'm one of those Zimmer fans), but the obvious integrity of the music here keeps it all afloat. It's an impressive composition.
> 
> A live performance would be great, and I wish you the best of luck with getting one to happen.
> 
> As for Mike Verta's forum... I've thought about poking my head in there a few times because he's such a stand-up guy, but I get the impression it has some issues and "colorful characters" of its own. I could be totally mistaken though.


thanks miket I appreciate it.


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## Marlon Brown

This is quite incredible, I must admit! The fact that this is with VSL, is even more impressive, because I have never been a fan of the VSL Sound. What this show is, it's not the equipment but the user of it! Great job and congratulations!


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## MartinH.

miket said:


> but I get the impression it has some issues and "colorful characters" of its own.



Same goes for VI:C, and yet here we are...

I think it's great to have it as a counterpoint to VI:C, less obsessed with buying stuff and more focused on improving orchestral compositions in a focused way. Make your own choice, but I'm glad it's there in spite of me possibly being the most out of place user there.


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## AndyP

Excellent! 
If you can use the potential of the VSL Library it is still the crowning glory of virtual instruments.


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## re-peat

I hope I can say this without causing too much injury or upset, but I didn't like the piece, I'm afraid. Listened to it two times in full, and a third time to a handful of fragments, and I was, I regret to say, bored stiff every single minute of it. I am sorry.

To me, this is the kind of music where you know within 30 seconds of the opening notes exactly what you're in for during the next half hour and, sadly enough, that fearful expectation of impending tedium is mercilessly met. For the full stretch of the ordeal.

There's never a suprise, there's no joy, no true musical excitement, not a single moment of thought-provoking inventiveness, ... the music constantly wallows in its own seriousness and plods, bar after bar, along well-established and academically approved paths. You can almost see a gaggle of esteemed music professors looking over the composer's shoulder, knodding their heads approvingly (although I can also spot some of them struggling with stifling a yawn on more than one occasion).
And when, during the finale, one can literally hear this symphony begging desperately for a standing ovation, it does so with melodic and harmonic banalities, bombastic pseudo-emotion and a bag of cheap tricks of such musical vulgarity that even a humble composer of second rate film music would be embarrased to use them.

This, to me, is the output of a well-educated and technically accomplished composer who has nothing to say and takes all the time he is allowed by the textbooks to say it. Sequences of notes which, time and again, I initially took to be secondary transitional material turned out the be the actual main themes of the piece — only to tell you how weak and flimsy I consider the thematic content — , and I waited in vain for even a single bolt of genuine musical inspiration. It never came.
Disregarding the finale (which I consider pathetically disappointing) for a polite moment, everything is more or less correct, everything is how it should be, every bar is craftily written and orchestrated, most of the music should pass any theoretical examination with decent results, but precisely because of all these qualities, it's also dull, bland and, to my mind anyway, quite forgettable. Again, I am sorry, but this is my opinion.

Paradoxically perhaps, this symphony is both formal and amorphous. The form, however, is never an integral part of the music, it merely establishes the prescribed boundaries within which "symphonic music' of this kind is supposed to happen, while its amorphousness is the result of the music having no "arc of inner logic" that pushes it forward towards its inevitable destination. (Which is something that, in my opinion, a symphony or concerto, worth its name and historic pedigree, can't be without.) Remove or add 10 minutes from or to this piece and it won't make any difference whatsoever. (Except that the former would have been a most welcome act of kindness.)

Predictably, the composer of this music — as composers of this type of music are wont to do (we had a near identical case a few years ago) — is deeply offended when the V.I. populace isn't quick enough with showing its adulation. And in his mind there can, of course, be only one explanation for this absence of instant reverence (an explanation which, naturally, elevates The Composer high above the philistine crowd): the V.I. membership obviously consists mostly of ignorant, uncultivated Zimmeroïd plebs that has no taste or qualifications to appreciate the finer things in music.
It's an arrogance I find particularly misplaced and offensive because, as I mentioned earlier, this symphony relies, especially in its latter half, on the very same banalities, formulas, tricks and techniques to play and impress audiences with as film music does. Yes, film music, that loathsome musical aberration which is so looked down on by the snobbish cultural elite, to which The Composer clearly aspires to belong.

And finally, another thing that annoys and saddens me about this type of music, is that it gives classical music a bad name. Force-feed this to an innocent, uncontaminated audience and the bulk of them will turn their backs on classical music for the rest of their lives. And can you blame them? I would too if I didn't know any better already. Why? Because there's no room, not even the slightest possibility, for joy and enjoyment in the exposure to this music. It turns the beautiful, wondrous and adventurous gift that is music into a burden, a drag, and a sad waste of time. It's all depressing, dreary, self-indulgent and rather pretentious seriousness from the first second to the last. Making for an experience that an audience will sit through with numbing resignation, and when they applaud its ending, which they will because protocol instructs them to, that applause is first of all a release of eagerly awaited relief and, secondly, these people applaud mostly themselves, and deservedly so, for having mustered the stamina and perseverance required to sit the whole thing out, silently suffering, without having lost their good manners.

For the third and final time: I am sorry (well, a bit), but this is what my first encounter with this music and its composer triggers me to say. Strictly personal opinion of course, and I'm totally confident that any discomfort which my words might cause will be inconsequential and short-lived. As befits the provocation.

_


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## SilentBob

An excellent piece of music, very entertaining. Within the first thirty seconds I knew this will be a great experience, musical and production wise. As others I shared at first the scepticism about a large scale VSL-only production, but this shows me I was wrong. Nevertheless, I hope really some day it would be performed with an orchestra. I'm sure it will lead up people to classical music and the beauty of a full blown symphonic work.

Once again: great work, in all aspects. A joy to listen. And thanks for sharing.


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## CT

MartinH. said:


> I think it's great to have it as a counterpoint to VI:C, less obsessed with buying stuff and more focused on improving orchestral compositions in a focused way.



I'm fully in favor of that... provided that there's no "holier than thou" attitude about it.


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## WilliamKersten

Marlon Brown said:


> This is quite incredible, I must admit! The fact that this is with VSL, is even more impressive, because I have never been a fan of the VSL Sound. What this show is, it's not the equipment but the user of it! Great job and congratulations!


Marlon thanks a lot!


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## WilliamKersten

SilentBob said:


> An excellent piece of music, very entertaining. Within the first thirty seconds I knew this will be a great experience, musical and production wise. As others I shared at first the scepticism about a large scale VSL-only production, but this shows me I was wrong. Nevertheless, I hope really some day it would be performed with an orchestra. I'm sure it will lead up people to classical music and the beauty of a full blown symphonic work.
> 
> Once again: great work, in all aspects. A joy to listen. And thanks for sharing.


Thanks so much silent bob that is great to hear.


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## WilliamKersten

re-peat said:


> I hope I can say this without causing too much injury or upset, but I didn't like the piece, I'm afraid. Listened to it two times in full, and a third time to a handful of fragments, and I was, I regret to say, bored stiff every single minute of it. I am sorry.
> 
> To me, this is the kind of music where you know within 30 seconds of the opening notes exactly what you're in for during the next half hour and, sadly enough, that fearful expectation of impending tedium is mercilessly met. For the full stretch of the ordeal.
> 
> There's never a suprise, there's no joy, no true musical excitement, not a single moment of thought-provoking inventiveness, ... the music constantly wallows in its own seriousness and plods, bar after bar, along well-established and academically approved paths. You can almost see a gaggle of esteemed music professors looking over the composer's shoulder, knodding their heads approvingly (although I can also spot some of them struggling with stifling a yawn on more than one occasion).
> And when, during the finale, one can literally hear this symphony begging desperately for a standing ovation, it does so with melodic and harmonic banalities, bombastic pseudo-emotion and a bag of cheap tricks of such musical vulgarity that even a humble composer of second rate film music would be embarrased to use them.
> 
> This, to me, is the output of a well-educated and technically accomplished composer who has nothing to say and takes all the time he is allowed by the textbooks to say it. Sequences of notes which, time and again, I initially took to be secondary transitional material turned out the be the actual main themes of the piece — only to tell you how weak and flimsy I consider the thematic content — , and I waited in vain for even a single bolt of genuine musical inspiration. It never came.
> Disregarding the finale (which I consider pathetically disappointing) for a polite moment, everything is more or less correct, everything is how it should be, every bar is craftily written and orchestrated, most of the music should pass any theoretical examination with decent results, but precisely because of all these qualities, it's also dull, bland and, to my mind anyway, quite forgettable. Again, I am sorry, but this is my opinion.
> 
> Paradoxically perhaps, this symphony is both formal and amorphous. The form, however, is never an integral part of the music, it merely establishes the prescribed boundaries within which "symphonic music' of this kind is supposed to happen, while its amorphousness is the result of the music having no "arc of inner logic" that pushes it forward towards its inevitable destination. (Which is something that, in my opinion, a symphony or concerto, worth its name and historic pedigree, can't be without.) Remove or add 10 minutes from or to this piece and it won't make any difference whatsoever. (Except that the former would have been a most welcome act of kindness.)
> 
> Predictably, the composer of this music — as composers of this type of music are wont to do (we had a near identical case a few years ago) — is deeply offended when the V.I. populace isn't quick enough with showing its adulation. And in his mind there can, of course, be only one explanation for this absence of instant reverence (an explanation which, naturally, elevates The Composer high above the philistine crowd): the V.I. membership obviously consists mostly of ignorant, uncultivated Zimmeroïd plebs that has no taste or qualifications to appreciate the finer things in music.
> It's an arrogance I find particularly misplaced and offensive because, as I mentioned earlier, this symphony relies, especially in its latter half, on the very same banalities, formulas, tricks and techniques to play and impress audiences with as film music does. Yes, film music, that loathsome musical aberration which is so looked down on by the snobbish cultural elite, to which The Composer clearly aspires to belong.
> 
> And finally, another thing that annoys and saddens me about this type of music, is that it gives classical music a bad name. Force-feed this to an innocent, uncontaminated audience and the bulk of them will turn their backs on classical music for the rest of their lives. And can you blame them? I would too if I didn't know any better already. Why? Because there's no room, not even the slightest possibility, for joy and enjoyment in the exposure to this music. It turns the beautiful, wondrous and adventurous gift that is music into a burden, a drag, and a sad waste of time. It's all depressing, dreary, self-indulgent and rather pretentious seriousness from the first second to the last. Making for an experience that an audience will sit through with numbing resignation, and when they applaud its ending, which they will because protocol instructs them to, that applause is first of all a release of eagerly awaited relief and, secondly, these people applaud mostly themselves, and deservedly so, for having mustered the stamina and perseverance required to sit the whole thing out, silently suffering, without having lost their good manners.
> 
> For the third and final time: I am sorry (well, a bit), but this is what my first encounter with this music and its composer triggers me to say. Strictly personal opinion of course, and I'm totally confident that any discomfort which my words might cause will be inconsequential and short-lived. As befits the provocation.
> 
> _


re-peat - oh yeah, you're sorry - no, you're sarcastic. Also, you're dead wrong about academic composers approving of me - they hate the kind of stuff I do because they only approve of atonalism, serialism, aleatoric music, 1/4 tone music, etc. I never got anywhere in the academic world. Also you're dead wrong about what I like which is film music above all -Bernard Herrmann is my favorite composer of all time, Erich Korngold, Georges Delarue, Elmer Bernstein, also more recently Danny Elfman who is awesome, all of those are tremendous inspirations. Your post is actually funny to me, because you go on at such length about something you hate. Something suspicious about that... By the way - what music do YOU do? Let's hear it, Maestro. It must be awesome.


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## CT

Re-peat's very "frank" posting style may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I would never write off his thoughts on this forum as mere noise from the peanut gallery.


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## WilliamKersten

"frank" ? How about "sarcastic" with the false apologetic tone. I say again to him - post some of your music "re-peat" which is so superior. Since you are on a higher plane, you need to allow others like me to crawl up to your level.


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## muk

WilliamKersten said:


> By the way - what music do YOU do? Let's hear it, Maestro. It must be awesome.



William, Piet's music is completely irrelevant for the topic at hand, which is the Romantic Symphony you posted. But having heard a fair number of his pieces over the years, I can assure you that his music is indeed nothing short of awesome. It's inventive, skillful, tasteful. You won't find anything to criticize there. The same goes for his mockups. Stylistically it is totally different from your Symphony, which renders any attempt at comparing the two it doubly pointless.
I am writing this as somebody who has received harsh critic and great advise by him, as well as praise. It can be hard to take at the time. But I am glad for all of it, because in the end he was right and it helped me greatly to improve my writing.

Back to the topic. I agree with the core of Piet's post. I admire the undeniable craft and work that went into the creation of this Symphony. But I do miss a certain spark of inspiration. To me it sounds laboured. If I am allowed to use a metaphor, I would say it compares to the great romantic symphonies like a mockup does to a real orchestra. It tries to mimick it - and in a very accomplished way I might add - but in the end it doesn't really get there. It's missing that bit of magic, that elusive poetic inspiration. At least it does so for me. It's all done craftily and correctly. The form is there. But the form does not develop logically and necessarily out of the musical material. Rather it seems like the musical material has been filled into an already fixed form model.

I don't know if that is helpful in any way. But I do hope you can take something away from it one way or another.


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## WilliamKersten

muk - I don't need anything "helpful" from you. I don't depend upon internet strangers to learn things. This was posted simply to share it, not because I am desperate to be shown how to compose. Also, the entire symphony was created intuitively, with no preset form except the vaguest concept of a sonata allegro first and last movement, a binary 2nd and a vaguely scherzo-like 3rd. Other than that it was just intuitively composed with no preconceptions so your statements about mimicking in a labored way are totally off-base. 

You and re-peat don't understand that your own personal preferences, whims and quirks are NOT universal aesthetic principles. They are merely your own likes or dislikes, and may quite possibly be the result of a lack of discernment or ability on your part. You assume you cut to the core of everything you encounter, but you do not necessarily do so, ever. 

I am not upset, but rather amused by this "review" by an internet personage who is so concerned with trashing my stuff he goes on at length like this. Why? It seems to indicate some sort of emotional bias because usually, if one really dislikes something, one simply moves on to something more appealing. 

I predict "re-peat" will post nothing. There are lots of people like him on the internet. All talk and nothing more.


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## BlackDorito

It's great to see what VSL can do with late romantic orchestral music given this level of care. I will use this rendition as a reference.

I haven't read all the replies but I see there is some disagreement. My reaction is mixed. The music grabbed me in local spots .. but generally seemed to be a long string of late romantic gestures. These were admirably executed - some were slow, delicate and beautiful, some bombastic - which provided some interest. As the music unfolded, I was not following it very well because the thematic material didn't cohere for me - I couldn't anticipate what would happen next. On repeat listenings, it will no doubt cohere more. The softer middle part was very pleasant, but a bit slow for my attention-span. All of us need to keep in mind that longer forms will unfold more slowly, but still for me there wasn't a narrative arc that I could follow, so it wandered a bit. To reduce this impression, I might suggest fewer and sharper-etched themes and better delineation of the sections. [If someone asked me 'what is the theme of Section 2' I could not tell them. I'm sure studying the score would help with this]

I hope this sort of feedback could be useful for future work. Cheers.

EDIT: I just read your last post ... we listeners generally assume that folks who post music here, including ourselves, want feedback.


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## WilliamKersten

Thanks for listening anyway.


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## muk

WilliamKersten said:


> muk - I don't need anything "helpful" from you. I don't depend upon internet strangers to learn things. This was posted simply to share it, not because I am desperate to be shown how to compose. Also, the entire symphony was created intuitively, with no preset form except the vaguest concept of a sonata allegro first and last movement, a binary 2nd and a vaguely scherzo-like 3rd. Other than that it was just intuitively composed with no preconceptions so your statements about mimicking in a labored way are totally off-base.
> 
> You and re-peat don't understand that your own personal preferences, whims and quirks are NOT universal aesthetic principles. They are merely your own likes or dislikes, and may quite possibly be the result of a lack of discernment or ability on your part. You assume you cut to the core of everything you encounter, but you do not necessarily do so, ever.
> 
> I am not upset, but rather amused by this "review" by an internet personage who is so concerned with trashing my stuff he goes on at length like this. Why? It seems to indicate some sort of emotional bias because usually, if one really dislikes something, one simply moves on to something more appealing.
> 
> I predict "re-peat" will post nothing. There are lots of people like him on the internet. All talk and nothing more.



Classy response Willem.



WilliamKersten said:


> usually, if one really dislikes something, one simply moves on to something more appealing.



That's exactly what I will do.


----------



## re-peat

WilliamKersten said:


> usually, if one really dislikes something, one simply moves on to something more appealing.



That is precisely what I decided to do after a first listen your work, Mr. Kersten. I spent some quality time with it on the day you started this thread, and having done so, I knew it wasn’t my musical cup of tea and chose to give it no further attention.

But then, a few days later, I noticed the thread got some replies and I was curious to learn what the fellow members thought of this music. So I checked. Which is when I noticed that you meanwhile staged a theatrical departure (in a post you since changed completely) as easily hurt ego’s are prone to do, but not before accusing the membership here of being little more than narrow-minded Zimmerophiles, incapable of savouring your musical gourmet.
Which is when I got a bit annoyed, listened again to your piece, and started writing what I wrote above.

- - -

(It’s Delerue, by the way, not Delarue.)

_


----------



## CT

For what it's worth, William, I completely understand that it is a fine line to walk, to be open to input on one's work since we can never really be "done" learning, but to also stand by it and your choices with it, filtering out the criticisms that may seem to be less about technique, and more about taste and how someone else wishes you had done it. 

The internet, and sharing what do you there, certainly doesn't make that any simpler a task.


----------



## WilliamKersten

re-peat said:


> That is precisely what I decided to do after a first listen your work, Mr. Kersten. I spent some quality time with it on the day you started this thread, and having done so, I knew it wasn’t my musical cup of tea and chose to give it no further attention.
> 
> But then, a few days later, I noticed the thread got some replies and I was curious to learn what the fellow members thought of this music. So I checked. Which is when I noticed that you meanwhile staged a theatrical departure (in a post you since changed completely) as easily hurt ego’s are prone to do, but not before accusing the membership here of being little more than narrow-minded Zimmerophiles, incapable of savouring your musical gourmet.
> Which is when I got a bit annoyed, listened again to your piece, and started writing what I wrote above.
> 
> - - -
> 
> (It’s Delerue, by the way, not Delarue.)
> 
> _


Re-peat


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## WilliamKersten

Thanks for the spelling correction. I see you are petty as well as sarcastic. You are not worth responding to.


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## WilliamKersten

However be sure and check out the other pieces I posted.


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## muk

By the way, how comes that you feel entitled to unanimous praise by this forum? Even going so far as to insulting its members after not having received immediate response. When all you contributed to this place is: your own music. Ever thought about returning the favor and listening to and commenting on some other users music? Ever thought about contributing anything to any of the many discussions on this forum? Nope. Instead you go about posting hours of your music, feeling entitled to immediate response, and then insult anybody who is anything but delighted by your music. Class act.


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## TinderC

Like @WilliamKersten I have only made a few posts and have mainly just dumped some music onto the forum to get feedback. Some of the feedback was not what I wanted but if graciously given, I graciously accepted. I agree with what @miket says above about the fine line. In this case the OP was attacked by one person, which was triggered by some long-gone post. Some of the statements were a bit outrageous when directed at one particular piece of music and it is hard to let them stand as an objective statement. I'm going to sound like a 3rd grade teacher but try to find the nuggets of truth in the blast furnace. And why double-down on the situation by asking us to listen to your other pieces?


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## synergy543

William, thank you for sharing your symphony and score. I will listen and study it carefully and then form my own opinion. Writing a long form symphony in today's ADHD world, obsessed with soundbytes breaking twitter news and instant gratification, seems like quite an accomplishment and very unusual to hear today. And its seems like the defacto internet etiquette to sling mud and brandish pitchforks once one prominent member has thrown the first tomato. Then others join in the the attack like lemmings, even choosing to use the same adjectives (like re-hashed film cliches) as the preceding posts. Oh well, life on the internet today is so predictable and boring. Its not nearly as exciting as it was years ago. You should read Bernard Shaws scathing criticism of Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony (so you're in good company at least).

Your composition certainly doesn't sound like the academic pieces I heard in school but more like some of the influences you cited. I would have been kicked out of composition class if I'd written something like this (and one kid who wrote a Symphony in the style of Brucker was kicked out!). Your realization, while impressive in many ways besides its length could possibly be further improved I believe in terms of its expressiveness (even with samples) at the cost of much additional time and tedious work in the production. So one has to decide if its work squeezing that much extra juice out of samples even if it is possible. Regardless, I think you've sort of hit the jackpot by nailing the Uncanny Valley with with both the samples and your composition, and this is I think what is irking some people. Its so close to realism and yet not quite there (compared with a real orchestra). And your composition is crafted so well, yet, its not John Williams or Korngold, which for some reason makes you and easy target to attack (I'm not sure I understand this though it seems it may be related to jealousy?). Well, I'm certainly jealous of your accomplishment and skill too though I have great respect for what you've done regardless of my opinion or criticism of it. I look forward to going over your score carefully and hopefully learning some things in the process. Thank you again for sharing and its a very impressive accomplishment!


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## WilliamKersten

I just joined this and obviously didn't have time to listen. I enjoy hearing other composers. I posted some other stuff mainly in defiance. Like, oh you hate this? Well here's some more. I've been told about this Forum - I see what they were talking about. But strangely enough I am not really interested in getting in zingers, trashing other composers etc. All the typical ego inflating internet shenanigans. I'm just interested in the music. Also, I never state stuff like this is just bad music about someone's composition. . That's useless criticism because it's totally negative. Anyway I don't really care about the negative stuff, but appreciate greatly the nice comments from people here.


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## WilliamKersten

synergy543 said:


> William, thank you for sharing your symphony and score. I will listen and study it carefully and then form my own opinion. Writing a long form symphony in today's ADHD world, obsessed with soundbytes breaking twitter news and instant gratification, seems like quite an accomplishment and very unusual to hear today. And its seems like the defacto internet etiquette to sling mud and brandish pitchforks once one prominent member has thrown the first tomato. Then others join in the the attack like lemmings, even choosing to use the same adjectives (like re-hashed film cliches) as the preceding posts. Oh well, life on the internet today is so predictable and boring. Its not nearly as exciting as it was years ago. You should read Bernard Shaws scathing criticism of Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony (so you're in good company at least).
> 
> Your composition certainly doesn't sound like the academic pieces I heard in school but more like some of the influences you cited. I would have been kicked out of composition class if I'd written something like this (and one kid who wrote a Symphony in the style of Brucker was kicked out!). Your realization, while impressive in many ways besides its length could possibly be further improved I believe in terms of its expressiveness (even with samples) at the cost of much additional time and tedious work in the production. So one has to decide if its work squeezing that much extra juice out of samples even if it is possible. Regardless, I think you've sort of hit the jackpot by nailing the Uncanny Valley with with both the samples and your composition, and this is I think what is irking some people. Its so close to realism and yet not quite there (compared with a real orchestra). And your composition is crafted so well, yet, its not John Williams or Korngold, which for some reason makes you and easy target to attack (I'm not sure I understand this though it seems it may be related to jealousy?). Well, I'm certainly jealous of your accomplishment and skill too though I have great respect for what you've done regardless of my opinion or criticism of it. I look forward to going over your score carefully and hopefully learning some things in the process. Thank you again for sharing and its a very impressive accomplishment!


Synergy thanks a lot that is kind of you. Shaw didn't like Tchaik 5th??!! Wow. That is the GREATEST piece. Thanks for pointing out that academic bias - this symphony would be loathed by most composition professors today. Hopelessly tonal. Completely out of touch


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## WilliamKersten

Oh it was the Tchaik 6th! That is even better.


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## synergy543

WilliamKersten said:


> Oh it was the Tchaik 6th! That is even better.





http://talkstudiousa.com/Shaw_Tchaikovsky_6th.pdf


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## OleJoergensen

synergy543 said:


> http://talkstudiousa.com/Shaw_Tchaikovsky_6th.pdf


It do reminds a bit of our critical forum member here


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## WilliamKersten

synergy543 said:


> http://talkstudiousa.com/Shaw_Tchaikovsky_6th.pdf


What an absolute piece of shit that review is! No depth if feeling?? Nonsense in the March? That is the most brilliant composition and the intensity of emotion in the first and last movements almost supernatural it is so powerful.


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## WilliamKersten

This is the censored and edited version of this post:

I noticed - re-peat didn't post any links. He is too scared evidently. To reveal what he actually does with music, instead of trashing other composers. Probably something like 17 Atonal Variations on Mary Had A Little Lamb, right? Also, Mr. *Class Act*, muk - (why don't you add a "c" - it would fit your persona wouldn't it?) I was curious (though not terribly interested) in what exactly you do when not posting support for toxic, twisted little creeps like re-peat. However, don't bother to post - since I am so out of here... 

By the way VI Control - I love that name, it sounds like the future of Mind Control - "we control everything with VI" - yeah right, for morons you control things - I don't give a rat's ass whether you ban me or not, and - in fact - *I WANT to be banned from this toxic Forum*. *PLEASE BAN ME.* Goodbye to you and good riddance. 

btw - thank you to the decent human beings who responded to my music kindly. I appreciate greatly what you said, and apologize to you (and you only) for my outburst. But I refuse to be put down by people who are my inferiors.


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## ka00

William, you’re making it hard for people to be your fans and supporters. I quite enjoyed your piece but this sort of comportment will sink your broader ambitions. I remember you getting into quite heated debates two years ago on the vsl forum with people who criticized the sound of synchron strings legato in your composition “No Greater Love”. Your responses were equally dismissive and condescending. You may one day realize that musical talent and skill are simply not enough to get you the audience you are looking for.


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## BlackDorito

I would add that if you don't intend to present your work for honest appraisal, then maybe specify ".. for your enjoyment; no feedback needed." You are then likely to get just some "Good work" messages. You will be missing a lot, however. The listening world isn't just comprised of fawning admirers and morons. A lot of talented yet humble composers have gotten a lot of good feedback here.


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## re-peat

WilliamKersten said:


> This is the censored and edited version of this post:
> 
> I noticed - re-peat didn't post any links. He is too scared evidently. To reveal what he actually does with music, instead of trashing other composers. Probably something like 17 Atonal Variations on Mary Had A Little Lamb, right? Also, Mr. *Class Act*, muk - (why don't you add a "c" - it would fit your persona wouldn't it?) I was curious (though not terribly interested) in what exactly you do when not posting support for toxic, twisted little creeps like re-peat. However, don't bother to post - since I am so out of here...
> 
> By the way VI Control - I love that name, it sounds like the future of Mind Control - "we control everything with VI" - yeah right, for morons you control things - I don't give a rat's ass whether you ban me or not, and - in fact - *I WANT to be banned from this toxic Forum*. *PLEASE BAN ME.* Goodbye to you and good riddance.
> 
> btw - thank you to the decent human beings who responded to my music kindly. I appreciate greatly what you said, and apologize to you (and you only) for my outburst. But I refuse to be put down by people who are my inferiors.



These don't sound like the words of a man who maintained he was "not upset, but rather amused" by what Muk and I wrote and who found it "actually funny", do they? Dear me.

Look, I can imagine it must be a bit of a blow that your Grand Arrival here at V.I. didn't quite result in a massive growth of the William Kersten Admiration Society, as you clearly expected it would, and that the air here not resonating with the sounds of a V.I. chorus singing reverential hymns in Your Honour, must be a bitter and upsetting silence to you. But what can one say? I don't know. Deal with it. (Here's a word you might wanna look up in the dictionnary: humility.) And also deal with the fact that the piedestal on which you put yourself is crumbling like a petit beurre under the hippopotamusial weight of your ego. Rather an amusing and funny sight, actually.

_


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## WilliamKersten

I apologize for what this thread descended into. It is my fault and I shouldn't have said the obnoxious things I said. I am hypersensitive about my compositions and got irritated as a result, but have no right to write in the manner I did. Sorry to have caused this trouble.


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## Guy Bacos

WilliamKersten said:


> I apologize for what this thread descended into. It is my fault and I shouldn't have said the obnoxious things I said. I am hypersensitive about my compositions and got irritated as a result, but have no right to write in the manner I did. Sorry to have caused this trouble.




Hey William,

Very nice.

I also really enjoyed Romantic Symphony!

Since William is new here, just want to say a few words:

I've known William for some time now on VSL Forum, it's not a secret for the ones who know him that every now and then he can get very passionate and go overboard, but in the end he does appologize. What I'd like members of this forum who don't know William, is to see the other side of him, his posts on VSL Forum are among the most thoughtful and articulate ones you will read, and I for one would welcome his input on various musical topics here. I've always been a fan of William's music, he writes great works, excellent programming skills and knows his craft, and I'm not saying his outburst should be exused, but hopefully this can been seen as a false start.


----------



## I like music

So ... Dominus Pro has been announced. Should we all go over to that thread and gawk at what is to come?

Also what's the deal with the lack of demos for MSB?

Erm, wait, CSW is out soon? Looking forward to that... lets start bugging Alex about the percussion before the winds are even released.

Have I united us all yet?


----------



## Rowy

re-peat said:


> I hope I can say this without causing too much injury or upset, but I didn't like the piece, I'm afraid. Listened to it two times in full, and a third time to a handful of fragments, and I was, I regret to say, bored stiff every single minute of it. I am sorry.



My guess is your post will cause some anger 

But I agree with you. Not in whole, because it is my honest opinion that William is a talented composer. A composer however, who missed out on some academic training, especially harmony. It's just a wild guess, but if he studied at a conservatory of music or at a university, it wasn't composition. That, or he preferred the bar to the classroom. In that case, he isn't the first one.

Really, what he did, writing such a symphony, is a major achievement. I wouldn't belittle him. But I would urge him to take lessons from a scholared and experienced composer.

Just my two cents.


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## Vischebaste

WilliamKersten said:


> I apologize for what this thread descended into. It is my fault and I shouldn't have said the obnoxious things I said. I am hypersensitive about my compositions and got irritated as a result, but have no right to write in the manner I did. Sorry to have caused this trouble.



Genuinely classy


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## WilliamKersten

Thanks so much guys. I am an extreme fan of Guy Bacos, who is a truly brilliant composer and pianist, not to mention total master of MIDI, as anyone knows who has heard his incredible list of demos on the VSL site. I hesitate to call them demos because they are rather beautiful miniature tone poems. Some of them not even miniature like his piano concerto movement.


----------



## Dear Villain

Rowy said:


> My guess is your post will cause some anger
> 
> But I agree with you. Not in whole, because it is my honest opinion that William is a talented composer. A composer however, who missed out on some academic training, especially harmony. It's just a wild guess, but if he studied at a conservatory of music or at a university, it wasn't composition. That, or he preferred the bar to the classroom. In that case, he isn't the first one.
> 
> Really, what he did, writing such a symphony, is a major achievement. I wouldn't belittle him. But I would urge him to take lessons from a scholared and experienced composer.
> 
> Just my two cents.



I've maintained my silence on this thread, although in the interest of disclosure, I consider William a friend and we email regularly about our similar challenges writing the kind of music we do in this day and age. I was pleased to see William apologize for his temper-fuelled comments, but completely understand how sensitive a composer that devotes their life to music would be in the face of such scathing criticism from re-peat et al.(and keep in mind, a work like his Romantic Symphony is not a "work for hire") 

As for the post by Rowy following this series of unfortunate posts, I must ask: what is the point of your post? Jumping on the band wagon of criticism at this point does nothing but add fuel to the fire that others have attempted to extinguish. Don't get me wrong, you are of course free to offer your opinion of this work, like anyone else, but using a little social awareness/common sense, you would realize that the timing of a criticism at this stage serves no purpose other than to further demoralize/demean a composer that has already shown remorse for his end of things (which is more than can be said for re-peat as of yet...although we should give him the benefit of the doubt that he will respond with an apology of his own).

Anyway, you mention that you wouldn't "belittle him" as a composer, but precede that with insulting/condescending remarks about his lack of academic schooling and/or prowess. Seriously, have a little self-awareness when constructing a post like this. 

Dave


----------



## Mattia Chiappa

re-peat said:


> I hope I can say this without causing too much injury or upset, but I didn't like the piece, I'm afraid. Listened to it two times in full, and a third time to a handful of fragments, and I was, I regret to say, bored stiff every single minute of it. I am sorry.
> 
> To me, this is the kind of music where you know within 30 seconds of the opening notes exactly what you're in for during the next half hour and, sadly enough, that fearful expectation of impending tedium is mercilessly met. For the full stretch of the ordeal.
> 
> There's never a suprise, there's no joy, no true musical excitement, not a single moment of thought-provoking inventiveness, ... the music constantly wallows in its own seriousness and plods, bar after bar, along well-established and academically approved paths. You can almost see a gaggle of esteemed music professors looking over the composer's shoulder, knodding their heads approvingly (although I can also spot some of them struggling with stifling a yawn on more than one occasion).
> And when, during the finale, one can literally hear this symphony begging desperately for a standing ovation, it does so with melodic and harmonic banalities, bombastic pseudo-emotion and a bag of cheap tricks of such musical vulgarity that even a humble composer of second rate film music would be embarrased to use them.
> 
> This, to me, is the output of a well-educated and technically accomplished composer who has nothing to say and takes all the time he is allowed by the textbooks to say it. Sequences of notes which, time and again, I initially took to be secondary transitional material turned out the be the actual main themes of the piece — only to tell you how weak and flimsy I consider the thematic content — , and I waited in vain for even a single bolt of genuine musical inspiration. It never came.
> Disregarding the finale (which I consider pathetically disappointing) for a polite moment, everything is more or less correct, everything is how it should be, every bar is craftily written and orchestrated, most of the music should pass any theoretical examination with decent results, but precisely because of all these qualities, it's also dull, bland and, to my mind anyway, quite forgettable. Again, I am sorry, but this is my opinion.
> 
> Paradoxically perhaps, this symphony is both formal and amorphous. The form, however, is never an integral part of the music, it merely establishes the prescribed boundaries within which "symphonic music' of this kind is supposed to happen, while its amorphousness is the result of the music having no "arc of inner logic" that pushes it forward towards its inevitable destination. (Which is something that, in my opinion, a symphony or concerto, worth its name and historic pedigree, can't be without.) Remove or add 10 minutes from or to this piece and it won't make any difference whatsoever. (Except that the former would have been a most welcome act of kindness.)
> 
> Predictably, the composer of this music — as composers of this type of music are wont to do (we had a near identical case a few years ago) — is deeply offended when the V.I. populace isn't quick enough with showing its adulation. And in his mind there can, of course, be only one explanation for this absence of instant reverence (an explanation which, naturally, elevates The Composer high above the philistine crowd): the V.I. membership obviously consists mostly of ignorant, uncultivated Zimmeroïd plebs that has no taste or qualifications to appreciate the finer things in music.
> It's an arrogance I find particularly misplaced and offensive because, as I mentioned earlier, this symphony relies, especially in its latter half, on the very same banalities, formulas, tricks and techniques to play and impress audiences with as film music does. Yes, film music, that loathsome musical aberration which is so looked down on by the snobbish cultural elite, to which The Composer clearly aspires to belong.
> 
> And finally, another thing that annoys and saddens me about this type of music, is that it gives classical music a bad name. Force-feed this to an innocent, uncontaminated audience and the bulk of them will turn their backs on classical music for the rest of their lives. And can you blame them? I would too if I didn't know any better already. Why? Because there's no room, not even the slightest possibility, for joy and enjoyment in the exposure to this music. It turns the beautiful, wondrous and adventurous gift that is music into a burden, a drag, and a sad waste of time. It's all depressing, dreary, self-indulgent and rather pretentious seriousness from the first second to the last. Making for an experience that an audience will sit through with numbing resignation, and when they applaud its ending, which they will because protocol instructs them to, that applause is first of all a release of eagerly awaited relief and, secondly, these people applaud mostly themselves, and deservedly so, for having mustered the stamina and perseverance required to sit the whole thing out, silently suffering, without having lost their good manners.
> 
> For the third and final time: I am sorry (well, a bit), but this is what my first encounter with this music and its composer triggers me to say. Strictly personal opinion of course, and I'm totally confident that any discomfort which my words might cause will be inconsequential and short-lived. As befits the provocation.
> 
> _


I'm not saying William handled this very well at all and I appreciate how in the end he came through, but man I can see how that could upset anybody. Despite what you might think, the harsh criticism is really not the problem here. Your preface is. If we put it in concrete terms, according to you it must have taken at least a good one and half hour of listening and that long, well thought out post sure didn't write itself either. If we assume you really did invest so much of your own personal time, I applaude your generosity for going to such length to help others in spite of your own personal disliking. Judging from the way you write, you seem like a smart person and I believe you could see how William (new on this forum and a person who doesn't know you) could find your honesty a little hard to believe. I mean sitting through all that just to educate him for the greater good? I'm really not making any accusation, merely trying to make you see why things escalated this way. Writing a symphony requires great skill and effort and he probably felt like some troll hiding behind anonymity was trying to diminish this great accomplishment, hence his defensiveness and multiple requests to share your music. Neither is right here but there are always two sides and maybe if you didn't open your post with that fake apologetic tone none would have been hurt.


----------



## Rowy

WilliamKersten said:


> I apologize for what this thread descended into. It is my fault and I shouldn't have said the obnoxious things I said. I am hypersensitive about my compositions and got irritated as a result, but have no right to write in the manner I did. Sorry to have caused this trouble.



It's understandable. A composition is like a child of yours. A lot of parents hate it when you criticize their child. They might even throw a brick through your window.

That's why most music composition teachers start with telling you how wonderful your composition is and what a fine composer you are. And then they will, very careful, try to correct a few things. Just a few, just a bit, no worries, it's still an excellent composition.

At the and of the lesson you might not even recognize your own score, but you'll feel good about it.

You learn from your mistakes. You learn nothing from the praise by your peers. It's easy to give someone a compliment. And it is a lot faster then writing a complete article, like re-peat did.


----------



## Rowy

Dear Villain said:


> As for the post by Rowy following this series of unfortunate posts, I must ask: what is the point of your post?



I had my reasons. Like you did.

Let me tell you a story. Years ago an amateur composer send me a couple of scores. Everyone thought that he was an excellent composer and that his orchestral work was wonderful, he wrote me. But all the conductors were too busy, and the publishers thought he would be better of with an other publisher.

And now he wanted to know my opinion. Someone told him I was a honest and caring woman. Perhaps, because I'm a woman, he expected a gentle touch and even more compliments.

I asked him for more information. He let me know that he was writing music for more than 20 years. He never studied music theory, but he knew all the scales and a lot of chords.

20 years! In 20 years no one bothered to tell him he should study at least harmony. After 20 years he still wrote at the level of a freshman. All those people who were feeding him a lot of crap, did a lot of harm. He truly needed an honest opinion.

That I gave him. He was shocked. He wrote me that because he was composing music for more than 20 years, he must have become a good composer. And I was a failure as a teacher and a composer.

I really went out of my way that time. Usually I don't, because there's nothing wrong with being an amateur. I'm an amateur producer and I'm fine with that.

Carefully I analysed a couple of pages of an orchestral work, explained him what could be improved and mentioned a few links to free educational resources on the internet.

After a while he started to see the light. And then he realised. All these years he was taking for a ride. 20 years through the drain, he wrote me.

It wasn't that bad. As a composer you need a lot of experience. Besides, writing music is a nice hobby.

You, Dear Villain (that sounds strange), are not helping William by trying to protect him.

About jumping on some wagon, I didn't read most replies. I stopped at re-peat's one. And then the automated mail service kicked in and I read everything.

Just to be clear, it isn't always necessary to study music. But if you want to write tonal orchestral music, then you'd better start studying. Otherwise trained composers and conductors, and publishers, will see and hear within half a minute that you are an amateur.

After reading scores for more than 30 years I let everyone know, that I don't want to receive any scores anymore. Because of the many clumsy scores, the ignorance and the aggressive replies.

That's what I like about this forum. Even the professional composers, the professional producers, can take criticism, and they're are prepared to help you, no matter how clumsy you are. As long as you don't fool yourself in being a genius.

I don't know much about William, but since I've had a look at his scores, I know enough. And I meant what I wrote. He is talented. If only he wasn't held back by people who think they need to praise him.


----------



## synergy543

It seems this may be an example of the scholarly classical music by the conservatory-trained Ms. Rowy? 
I think this example speaks for itself. No need for comments, though if you do, please be kind. And please don't let this deter anyone from pursuing academic studies. Remember some of our greatest composers including Prokofiev and John Williams were academically trained.

https://composer.rowy.net/Sales_Demo/01-Rowy-Sonatine-Allegretto.m4a


----------



## Rowy

synergy543 said:


> It seems this may be an example of the scholarly classical music by the conservatory-trained Ms. Rowy?
> I think this example speaks for itself. No need for comments, though if you do, please be kind. And please don't let this deter anyone from pursuing academic studies. Remember some of our greatest composers including Prokofiev and John Williams were academically trained.
> 
> https://composer.rowy.net/Sales_Demo/01-Rowy-Sonatine-Allegretto.m4a



Yes, and please notice the remark I added: "This easy neo-classical sonatina is a nice alternative to sonatinas written by composers as Muzio Clementi."

That whole site has been made to help along amateur composers. It's like some one writes a story for children and then you come in and say: "Wow, that person is so stupid as a child".

You see, I can do that as well, easy classical music. Music in a Baroque style, Classical, Romantic, even atonal music. Because I studied music composition. And I'm a bit fed up with people who seem to protect a composer like William, when in fact they are trying to hide their own lack of education.

I've seen this happen before in other forums. The amateurs rally to protect one of their own. Not because they really care. They only care about themselves. But they are so afraid to be confronted with their own ignorance that they are willing to attack anyone with a proper education.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Rowy said:


> Yes, and please notice the remark I added: "This easy neo-classical sonatina is a nice alternative to sonatinas written by composers as Muzio Clementi."
> 
> That whole site has been made to help along amateur composers. It's like some one writes a story for children and then you come in and say: "Wow, that person is so stupid as a child".
> 
> You see, I can do that as well, easy classical music. Music in a Baroque style, Classical, Romantic, even atonal music. Because I studied music composition. And I'm a bit fed up with people who seem to protect a composer like William, when in fact they are trying to hide their own lack of education.
> 
> I've seen this happen before in other forums. The amateurs rally to protect one of their own. Not because they really care. They only care about themselves. But they are so afraid to be confronted with their own ignorance that they are willing to attack anyone with a proper education.


Hey Rowy -
Whilst you raised some good points earlier in the thread, I'd be careful about drawing a line between "amateurs" and those with a musical education.

An understanding of theory, harmony and all the rest doesn't always translate into innovative and sophisticated musical output. And I say this with years of musical study behind me as a student and occasional teacher.

There's an art to giving out criticism and constructive advice about someone's music especially on a forum where we only have text to convey our message. Unfortunately, this thread contains *some* examples of how not to do it: Belittling, insults. More showing off and turf defending than any genuine desire to help, delivered using a language and tone that the poster would never use face to face.

Yes - a lot of composers have real difficulty accepting constructive criticism. But it rarely helps when the "educators" deliver their advice with such a lack of empathy and class. And that is why we argue.


----------



## Rowy

Alex Fraser said:


> Yes - a lot of composers have real difficulty accepting constructive criticism. But it rarely helps when the "educators" deliver their advice with such a lack of empathy and class. And that is why we argue.



You're probably right. But English is not my native language. The things I want to write, have to be simplified, otherwise a reply could cost me half a day.

I don't dislike amateurs. I've been teaching amateurs for decades. I wrote music for them, more then 500 pieces. But some amateurs are not willing to accept that they're not called amateurs by accident.

If someone wants to study music composition, I always asked (I don't teach anymore) why? Just for fun? Okay, no problem. And if he or she managed to write a symphony with the same quality as William's symphony, I would be surprised, and very pleased.

As a teacher you know that occasionally you run into amateur composers who don't want to know that they're amateurs. I even dare to say that most amateurs secretly hope, or even think, that they are just as good as a pro. I don't mind. Everyone is free to dream.

But if they want to discuss music, and ask me for an opinion, I can not act as if it's all evenly brilliant. As if studying music isn't really necessary. Because we are all artists, and saying someone isn't, well, that is racism!

Yeah, well, it takes me just half a minute to be able to tell if a composer really studied music. One glance at the score is enough. It's always the harmony, the weird enharmonics and the lack of sufficient tension in the harmony.

Mind you, such a score can be interesting as well. Really talented composers manage to fill in the gabs, not with harmony, but with imitations and even dissonants. Sometime there is some voice-leading.

But isn't that a pity? Perhaps I'm too much of a teacher, but I always think, when i see a score like that, what a bloody shame. Here's someone who could be an excellent composer. If only he took a couple of lessons.

By the way, what's up with the younger generation these days, that they're willing to search the internet for years, scouting for free theory books and video lessons, while they would make more progress if they would take some real lessons. As if the internet is the answer to everything.


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## Alex Fraser

Rowy said:


> You're probably right. But English is not my native language. The things I want to write, have to be simplified, otherwise a reply could cost me half a day.


Well, I'm in awe of this. We British folk are notorious for not learning other languages.
I'm always impressed by the eloquence of non-native English speakers on this forum.

Maybe the forum should have a "members compositions - constructive critique wanted" section. That way everyone would be on the same page and would know what to expect.


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## Rowy

Alex Fraser said:


> Well, I'm in awe of this. We British folk are notorious for not learning other languages.



Herr Flick speaks German: "Ve have vays..."


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## re-peat

*Mattia*, what, I wonder, is so weird about giving a 33 minute piece of symphonic music 2 hours of my time? I would think that that is the bare minimum a piece of such length deserves before commenting on it. No? Usually, when I decide to comment on a piece, I listen to it at least four or five times, and often more. I didn't go to such draining lengths with this symphony because the first hearing had already told me that Mr. Kersten's musical world has very little overlap with mine, but a second complete hearing was, I felt (and given the circumstances), the very least I should give this music. If only to better be able to marshal my thoughts about it.

Somewhat bizarre, if you don't mind me saying so, that a more extended attention for this work is considered suspect, while the quick routine complimentary platitudes — as hollow and empty as these come — receive appreciation and thanks.
Also strange, I find, that mine, Muk's and Rowy's words are deemed belittling and insulting, whereas Mr. Kersten's far-far-far more excessive invective must be read, so we are told, as "the unfortunate outburst of a sensitive composer". Yeah, right.

(In my first language, we have a saying about "meten met twee maten en gewichten", but unfortunately, the English equivalent escapes me at the moment.)

Anyway, I know, if I too had only listened to a few randomly chosen minutes of this symphony, then pretended to have listened to the whole thing and written a lazy quicky, offering Mr. Kersten another meaningless "Awesome!", he, by way of being, would have been very pleased with me as well, thanking me kindly for my kindness. But ... that isn't kindness, is it? That's pure, undiluted hypochrisy. (The very thing this thread is meanwhile dripping with.)

The fact that Mr. Kersten seems to prefer this hypocrisy though, and immediately seeths with fury and indignation the moment he is served something else, tells me that he is not really here for musical reasons, as he claims he is, but that he only set up camp here in search of glory and veneration. Nothing to do with music at all. As was further amplified by his hysteric antics when glory and veneration didn't come as swiftly and as copiously as he felt were due to him.
Now, I don't have a problem with people seeking glory and veneration, absolutely not, and if they do it with quality work or, in absence thereof, with sincerity and humility, they have all my sympathy and support. When their engine runs solely on vaingloriousness, dishonesty and a totally misplaced smug and derisive attitude towards the bulk of the VI-membership however, I have no understanding for it whatsoever.

As for the apology, I know that if I don't keep myself in check, there's some chance I might write something I will have to apologize for later on, but as that hasn't happened yet, I fail to see why I should do so now. So that we can all sing Kumbaya together and merrily carry on with the nauseating charade called "musicians deceiving musicians" (telling one another what great and sensitive composers we all are)? No, thanks. Nolle prosequi, is my answer to that.

Oh, and *Gregory*, a few parting words for you: I am staggered — and disappointed beyond words — to learn that you, of all people, are prepared to stoop to such mean and childish tactics, seeking to embarras a fellow member and participant in this discussion, the way you did. You actually went to the trouble of locating one of Rowy's pieces — and a light-weight excercise piece at that, and as such quite unrepresentative of his work and/or musicianship — and posted a link to it (without politely asking permission first of course, but presented it with a maliciously derogatory introduction instead) with the sole aim of ridiculizing him?? That's seriously sick, Greg. I mean, se-ri-ous-ly sick. Shame on you.

_


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## Zero&One

Interesting thread and creative replies.

I do have a question however.
From the first page of Member's Compositions, no other thread has received such in depth analysis. 7 of these threads have 0 replies. That's nothing...
Excluding that obvious original post, as we have resolved that issue. Why?


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## Maxtrixbass

First of all: To the original post- great piece of music which I enjoyed. I really appreciate the development into the longer form which, IMHO, is a real challenge. The recording/performance/mix was also very good. Bravo.

Secondly..I've been away from the forum for about 6 years and am disappointed to see much of the same vitriol. No problem to like or dislike the work, even to like or dislike the composer (Wagner may have been a real jerk in person), but the attacks don't seem to serve much purpose aside from sucking the joy out of it for everyone. For some reason this field can be a real circle shoot which extends far beyond this website, but it seems rather sad we can't share ideas here without it turning into a blood bath. It seems such a specialized little niche and one not easy to find like minded people..at least not on every street corner.

..and interestingly I still see Hans Zimmer disproportionately mentioned. Not sure what's driving that.


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## Dave Connor

A little (hopefully helpful) context for all of us who suffer the slings and arrows of criticism of our music:

Stravinsky, widely considered the greatest composer of the last century, suffered withering criticism of his music. Here he was reviving Mozart in the era of Schoenberg, Webern, Ives and even worse - himself - and his own radical departure from German-dominated Classicism/Romanticism. Now of course, that period of his work (most of his total output) is recognized as the towering work of genius that it is.

What was the key to his endurance of that criticism? He was simply writing what he _wanted to. _It was mainly the _style _that bothered people (along with the outright theft of Mozart’s tunes and textures) since his compositional technique was beyond reproach. Here we have the essence of music criticism: _skill_ vrs _content_.

When it comes to the content of our music, it is very much an aesthetic choice. This is where the subjective consideration of _taste_ rules, which cannot really be argued. If you don’t like Beethoven’s 9th, well - that’s that. However, the objective issues of: writing technique, harmonic invention, form, orchestration, and the new consideration of mock-up etc., are far more easily or objectively evaluated (though taste enters in here as well.)

The point being that, a composer should write whatever he wants and fully expect the love to hate responses that are sure to come. He/She has no control over that and should be realistic about the inevitable. What the composer _can _control is the presentation of the music: the application of informed compositional attributes that show skill, logic, and invention, the way a skilled carpenter’s work would. Of course there is always the departure from those norms which are _anti-establishment _such as Debussy’s radical departure but once again - the skill and logic are undeniable - while the traditional elements such as _orchestration _are flawless and indeed highly inventive.

The best any of us can hope for is to present our own aesthetic (if it’s not your own than that alone will invite criticism) and do so as skillfully as possible. In the end we should be able to say what a famous composer did about a rather severe piece of music he wrote, _I don’t know if it’s any good but it’s exactly what I meant to say. _[Vaughn Williams on his 4th Symphony.]


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## mediumaevum

Very inspiring! Thanks for sharing 

Now it's time for critique: I can't critique your composition, because it is beyond my own skills (I should be learning from you).

But I do miss some more dynamics on the instruments. I think should work on the Dynamics settings for each instrument, though you've already put quite alot of work into this.

But the instruments still sound very "midi". The trick is to draw (manually) curves for the Dynamics and Expression settings, especially on the string instruments. You have to put a human touch to each and every note, and I know, it's a pain.

EDIT: I listened carefully to the strings (violins, legato). It needs more vibrato.

But overall, this is a good piece.


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## José Herring

Take every overly harsh critique and replace it with "needs more cowbell" and move on. Seriously you are going to write what you're going to write. I don't think that personal opinions have anything to do with your music.

There are some good criticisms where people voiced their views and backed them with some legitimate technical suggestion for improvement. Those are valid.

I will say this though, in trying to capture a piece in the "romantic" style that one could consider not falling into the same orchestration traps that the romantics fell into. Namely overly combining instruments of the orchestra to create a bigger sound but losing the distinctness and orchestral color and resonance of the orchestra. More modern composers refined the technique of orchestration to a really high zenith starting with Berlioz then Rimsky-Korsakov, Stravinsky. The French and French inspired Russian schools of orchestration.

The Germans unfortunately tended towards a more muddled wash of instruments that really should stay in 19th century Germany in spite of the fact that in typical German stubbornness they continued to this day with the same sloppy muddled orchestration. I find that you're piece suffers from this and it is at those points that I lost interest.

You will get more expression, emotion and clarity of voicing by writing in a Romantic Style but keep to some more modern orchestration practices.

Also, and I will admit that this is a personal taste, there is the tendency in your piece to write long lines with no clear motif for the ear to hold on to so then what happens is that the ear loses the cohesiveness of the line after a couple of bars as too much new material is introduced in a short period of time.

But in general I applaud anybody for putting together a symphony in this day and age. I'm thinking about do it. But, the idea and time involved seems daunting to me. Perhaps when my son moves out of the house and I don't have to worry about raising a kid anymore I'll lock myself in a room for a month and bang out some longer concert works.

I shutter a little at the thought of bringing him into my post but several years ago Piet (Re-Peat) posted his piano concerto. Good piece, vastly different style. Way too complicated to pull off, but I applaud him for trying to. Same as I applaud you for sharing your piece.

In this day and age when music has been over commercialized and pressed into use for other art forms, the race to the bottom and composers going for the most simplest base music to create an effect, those that take the time to treat music as an art form and not purely as a commodity should be encouraged to do so no matter who they are or really what they write, because it will be up to us to venture pass the current day and create a better future for music. Because right now, it is nearly dead as a fine art.

I'm inspired to get back to my concert works now. Even my commercial work is leading in that direction now. I can't help it.



Lastly, to illustrate my point, I will post an excerpt from Howard Hanson's symphony number 2. He does fall into the trap of muddied orchestration in much of his symphony but the section they used in Alien end titles ironically enough is actually very well orchestrated and he is able to achieve a romantic style with full expression using distinct and clear orchestration by separation of lines, tone color and registers.



Good luck with your piece my man. Keep writing. Take what you can to improve. Throw out all the rest of the "advice" even anything that I mentioned. It's your journey. It's your voice. It's your decision. Nobody is paying you to do it their way. Run with what you got and with every new piece try and figure out how to do your thing even better.

ml,


José


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## BlackDorito

James H said:


> From the first page of Member's Compositions, no other thread has received such in depth analysis. 7 of these threads have 0 replies. That's nothing...


Hmmm ... this new and very shrewd gambit of generating lots of controversy seems just the ticket to get your music reviewed around here ("Here's my latest piece, you morons!"). But seriously, submitting your music is an act of faith and getting no replies is deflating and humiliating. But I liken it to the situation where you've just finished your presentation and you're thinking "They're diverting their eyes, shit, I must've bombed!" In reality, one person is thinking "I guess it's leftovers for dinner tonight", and another is thinking about her boyfriend, etc. So, forum members may not be delivering an intentional message about you and your music. The style might not move them, the instrumentation may not be their particular interest at this time, your opening may be a little slow and then <click> they're onto the next thing, the members you respect the most might not log on that day ... and before you know it, your post is on page 2 and you are a washed-up mess. So you contemplate the craven "Bump" message .. but wait (in the mirror) "Am I that needy?" I don't have any solid answer except to say that it happens to many people, all artists will be happier as their skin gets thicker, chalk it off to serendipity, and ... repost a week later, saying "BTW - the alto flute is Spitfire." That usually works.


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## ka00

BlackDorito said:


> "Here's my latest piece, you morons!"



Oh man, someone (not me) needs to do this.


----------



## I like music

josejherring said:


> Take every overly harsh critique and replace it with "needs more cowbell" and move on. Seriously you are going to write what you're going to write. I don't think that personal opinions have anything to do with your music.
> 
> There are some good criticisms where people voiced their views and backed them with some legitimate technical suggestion for improvement. Those are valid.
> 
> I will say this though, in trying to capture a piece in the "romantic" style that one could consider not falling into the same orchestration traps that the romantics fell into. Namely overly combining instruments of the orchestra to create a bigger sound but losing the distinctness and orchestral color and resonance of the orchestra. More modern composers refined the technique of orchestration to a really high zenith starting with Berlioz then Rimsky-Korsakov, Stravinsky. The French and French inspired Russian schools of orchestration.
> 
> The Germans unfortunately tended towards a more muddled wash of instruments that really should stay in 19th century Germany in spite of the fact that in typical German stubbornness they continued to this day with the same sloppy muddled orchestration. I find that you're piece suffers from this and it is at those points that I lost interest.
> 
> You will get more expression, emotion and clarity of voicing by writing in a Romantic Style but keep to some more modern orchestration practices.
> 
> Also, and I will admit that this is a personal taste, there is the tendency in your piece to write long lines with no clear motif for the ear to hold on to so then what happens is that the ear loses the cohesiveness of the line after a couple of bars as too much new material is introduced in a short period of time.
> 
> But in general I applaud anybody for putting together a symphony in this day and age. I'm thinking about do it. But, the idea and time involved seems daunting to me. Perhaps when my son moves out of the house and I don't have to worry about raising a kid anymore I'll lock myself in a room for a month and bang out some longer concert works.
> 
> I shutter a little at the thought of bringing him into my post but several years ago Piet (Re-Peat) posted his piano concerto. Good piece, vastly different style. Way too complicated to pull off, but I applaud him for trying to. Same as I applaud you for sharing your piece.
> 
> In this day and age when music has been over commercialized and pressed into use for other art forms, the race to the bottom and composers going for the most simplest base music to create an effect, those that take the time to treat music as an art form and not purely as a commodity should be encouraged to do so no matter who they are or really what they write, because it will be up to us to venture pass the current day and create a better future for music. Because right now, it is nearly dead as a fine art.
> 
> I'm inspired to get back to my concert works now. Even my commercial work is leading in that direction now. I can't help it.
> 
> 
> 
> Lastly, to illustrate my point, I will post an excerpt from Howard Hanson's symphony number 2. He does fall into the trap of muddied orchestration in much of his symphony but the section they used in Alien end titles ironically enough is actually very well orchestrated and he is able to achieve a romantic style with full expression using distinct and clear orchestration by separation of lines, tone color and registers.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck with your piece my man. Keep writing. Take what you can to improve. Throw out all the rest of the "advice" even anything that I mentioned. It's your journey. It's your voice. It's your decision. Nobody is paying you to do it their way. Run with what you got and with every new piece try and figure out how to do your thing even better.
> 
> ml,
> 
> 
> José




Nicely put! And with that, we should move on.


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## re-peat

Maxtrixbass said:


> ..and interestingly I still see Hans Zimmer disproportionately mentioned. Not sure what's driving that.



There's a lot in this thread, including several of my paragraphs, that only makes complete sense if you can recall the original content of the third post (entirely re-written a few days later), in which Mr. Kersten bitterly lamented the fact that his symphony didn't receive any attention. (The first few days, this thread did indeed not receive any written-out attention.) And according to him, this was because the V.I. community consists mostly of uncultured, narrow-minded "Zimmer fans" who are incapable of recognizing and appreciating the musical qualities in his symphony. Can't remember the exact words, but that — including the Zimmer-reference — was certainly the gist of that original third post, which also ended with Mr. Kersten announcing his departure, feeling, as he did, that this place is crowded with inferiors.

And that's how the name Zimmer found its way into this thread.

_


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## markleake

This thread kept appearing at the top of the list, so a few days ago I thought what the heck, it's hugely long, but I'll delve in and start listening. I've only now come back and finished reading all the posts and commentary, and I'm finishing my first listen as I type. (I know, how _dare_ I listen just once ).

Some of the reactions here remind me of when that Gumby TV program orchestrator guy first came here with his "newfangled electronic music symphony" stuff (hint: it was distinctly "oldfangled") and proceeded to react all over the place to people giving him feedback on what were clearly some pretty, let's say, "ordinary" renderings. [Incidentally, what is it with VSL and old codgers who are so keen to yell "get off my lawn- erm... symphony"?] Not to lump this track in with those horrors, but man I do love reading the drama!!

I know the OP isn't looking for feedback, but who cares, I have two main (very uneducated/amateur, because that is very much what I am) observations anyway:

First, there seems to be a mixing issue with the stereo field that really throws me. Why do the strings and brass often sound like they are sitting in each of my speakers? How do you even manage to mix them like that? Strangely it doesn't sound so bad on my monitors when listening close, but listening on my big lounge stereo where I am further away, the effect is very pronounced and horribly distracting. Maybe just a VSL thing? I don't know, I don't have any VSL products, but surely not. My conclusion... folks, please don't pan orchestral instruments too hard left and right, it doesn't sound anything like a real orchestra recording.

And second (dare I say it! ), the feedback from re-peat, muk, rowy, etc. is totally on point!
Maybe not delivered in a very easy to swallow way, but they make a good case.

I usually love the long form stuff people post here. Often those pieces will have their own issues, but mostly they are fun to listen to, have some nice themes, ideas are re-used and vary over time, there's soft and louder passages that make sense, there's variations of the same themes using other instruments, there's colours and musical interest where I'm like "oh, I'll have to remember that", etc.

Unfortunately, this track is lacking exactly these qualities. Maybe this is not helped by the flatness I find with listening to VSL stuff? [That low brass is very "retro" sounding for a VI, ugh.] But I think it's more than that. _Edit: On second listen, at 23:00 there is a developed theme that starts to work for me, and at 23:20 it starts to come alive. Finishes at 23:50 though. _

I listened very carefully to the chords used in the piece. They really are not so interesting in many places... where are the discordant notes, sweet to salty harmonies, pedal notes that follow an interesting line of it's own, horns playing a counter melody to the strings, woodwinds that get to have some fun for once, the novel interesting patterns of notes?

And in what world are we limited to using resolutions from a sus chord to a major/minor, or going from the 3rd or 6th to the tonic only? (Well, maybe I exaggerate, but I'm pretty sure I've now had my yearly dose of these now). Maybe there's some parts that have potential and don't suffer from this, but yet there is this same unmistakable predictable nature evident in most of the track. I suspect Mike Verta would have a field day with this. I think Rowy is being very nice here and is holding back.

The rhythms are a similar deal... there, but they don't seem to mean anything. There's nothing specifically wrong with any of it, and some parts I do like, like the brass "ta ta da daaa" parts which repeat sometimes (this is unfortunately the only part I remember). I would have liked something to happen with them more than just "ta ta da daaa". _Edit: On second listen, at 13:44, do I perhaps hear a modulation of this rhythm?_

Anyway, all this makes me want to go listen to some jazz or Williams so I can get the "playing it too straight" vibe out of my ear.

A good symphony is far more adventurous than this, surely?

Does your music have to actually mean something to pass muster? Yeap, this track demonstrates it.

Do I mind listening to it after all my guff above? Sure, it's fine as some good background fluff.

I'm being harsh in my feedback? Yes, I think I am. Can I do better? Nope. I'm very much an amateur, but if I can hear these issues in the track, then maybe that means something? Clearly a lot of time and effort went into this. This is all just my personal opinion, yada, yada...


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## BlackDorito

markleake said:


> where are the discordant notes, sweet to salty harmonies, pedal notes that follow an interesting line of it's own, horns playing a counter melody to the strings, woodwinds that get to have some fun for once, the novel interesting patterns of notes?


Beautifully put @markleake and useful. I've printed these words and pasted them to my workstation. Good review. I too have noticed a little bit more thematic material peeking out at me (not exactly hitting me over the head) on repeated listenings, as I always predict. On first listening, the mind looks for familiar stylistic signposts to help anticipate what's coming next and if they are hard to find, it can be boring. On repeated listening, we can rely on familiarity of the piece itself for prediction and enjoyment. The criticisms that endure are the ones most useful for the composers.


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## Guy Bacos

I was just listening to the 1st mov. again. The theme you brought in at 34s after the strong beginning is really beautiful, a bit evocative of the Warsaw Concerto, very tasteful, I love how you shaped that melody and how it recurs. I was moved several times listening to this work, and bottom line, you can’t please everyone.


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## I like music

Guy Bacos said:


> I was just listening to the 1st mov. again. The theme you brought in at 34s after the strong beginning is really beautiful, a bit evocative of the Warsaw Concerto, very tasteful, I love how you shaped that melody and how it recurs. I was moved several times listening to this work, and bottom line, you can’t please everyone.



I always hope that people are happy and proud of their own work, or at least enjoyed doing it. The rest is just a bonus!


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## Michael Antrum

Guy Bacos said:


> I was just listening to the 1st mov. again. The theme you brought in at 34s after the strong beginning is really beautiful, a bit evocative of the Warsaw Concerto, very tasteful, I love how you shaped that melody and how it recurs. I was moved several times listening to this work, and bottom line, you can’t please everyone.



The Warsaw Concerto is one of my favourite piano pieces. (Apparently Rachmaninov's work was a little too pricey to licence for the producers, so Addinsell 'got the gig'. 

The hours I have spent trying (and failing) to master some of those keyboard runs, which are fortunately, and often helpfully, obliterated by the orchestra.

The problem with music as a hobby is that there is never enough time to practice as much as one wants....


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## mediumaevum

In addition to my other comment, I thought I'll comment on the critique as well:

I read re-peat's comment just now (well, at least some of it). Seems like a bit of harsh critique, though I'll tell you my own experience on another forum and what I've learned:

Almost - but not quite as long comment/critique - has been given to my compositions as well (on the other forum, not VI).

Like you, I turned into defensive-mode and tried to defend my composition. That was a BIG mistake, because I learned - through the hard way - that if you do so, people will withdraw from your threads, then you won't learn anymore, because you risk getting no critique.

You do not learn from "nice work"-comments only. You only learn from (serious) critique.

The trick is, don't defend your compositions. Try and learn from it to improve on your skills.

Don't defend, learn instead.
Ie. ask re-peat for elaborating on the critique and quote some of it and ask in-depth questions about it.

Classical compositions are hard to learn, let alone to write a symphony. Maybe you shouldn't write a symphony just yet, but try and develop some "Fantasies" or "symphonic poems" - that'll leave you with more freedom of expression. Symphonies have some strict rules to adhere to, where Fantasies has... "none" (caution here, there may be some rules though).

I suggest you go check out Ralph Vaughan William's works, I myself find a lot of inspiration in his way of doing stuff.

I wish I could get as much feedback and critique on my compositions as you've got here.


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## Guy Bacos

mediumaevum said:


> You do not learn from "nice work"-comments only. You only learn from (serious) critique.



That is very true, but while I give my constructive criticism I also like to put myself in the place of the person I'm making these comments to and balance the positive and negative and there IS a lot of positive to talk about. But I'm sure the counterargument will be that if you become too sensitive, you can't be honest about your criticism, there's always the right balance. This isn't a court, it's a friendly forum. But that's me, we all don't have the same approach. I also had some constructive criticism I wanted to talk about, but after all this talk about: "This is for you own good, deal with it", it seems not the time to keep going in that direction.


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## Maxtrixbass

Many years ago when I was a music theory/composition undergrad I took a tune I had worked on into my "composition workshop" class for feedback. Suffice to say I had a lot invested into the thing, not only hours, but it was also a "requiem" piece for my dad who had passed away not long before.

The opening feedback was "burn it" and it degraded from there. It went on so long and was so bad the prof apologized to me the next day. Totally demoralizing.

Through sheer stubbornness I did get the thing performed. One of the professors afterward said he'd sponsor me if I wanted to enter it into a national composition competition. I thought it a vindication...and a great honor to be honest, although it didn't have a prayer of winning.

Well, it did. I got a full ride scholarship. Easy to say "I showed them", but really the lesson was they were both right. Welcome to the arts. People pay millions for a Van Gogh. His stuff kind of gives me the creeps. Yes, there is the craft and mechanics, but some people simply like the Rolling Stones. There's the mechanics and then there is what connects to the listener. The former serves the latter.

Since then I have realized, if I'm lucky, maybe 1 in ten people will like my tunes, maybe 1 in 10 won't, and the rest, well, it will go into the black hole of indifference. I bet Beethoven himself could anonymously post a tune and it wouldn't be that different (not that I presume). Think Joshua Bell in that subway station.. So to the original post, ya just can't worry that much about the 80%, enjoy the one, and see if you can learn something from the other.

The other thing I learned is how demoralizing scathing feedback can be. Critique yes, ideas for improvement by all means, but painfully harsh..I remember reading a magazine critique of Richard Strauss that the only problem was that he didn't die in 1900. He was still alive at the time.

It takes so much work to do any of these things really, more so because today its almost a given that we do it all: write, perform, record, mix..That's a lot of hats. Sometimes a simple "nice job" is a salute to all the work. 

As to the rest, to quote a line from the movie 2010, "just because our governments are behaving like asses doesn't mean we have to". There is so much that's taken on a harder edge these days that it might be good, myself included, to take a deep breath and realize we're all in this monkey house together.


----------



## re-peat

Maxtrixbass said:


> (...) The other thing I learned is how demoralizing scathing feedback can be. Critique yes, ideas for improvement by all means, but painfully harsh ... (...) (...) Sometimes a simple "nice job" is a salute to all the work. (...) As to the rest, to quote a line from the movie 2010, "just because our governments are behaving like asses doesn't mean we have to". There is so much that's taken on a harder edge these days that it might be good, myself included, to take a deep breath and realize we're all in this monkey house together.



That's all very well, Maxtrix, and I don't disagree with any of it, but it is somewhat besides the point in that it, just like the previous appeals for nicety and respect, keeps ignoring what actually happened in this thread and why it turned out the way it did. If Mr. Kersten had simply posted this symphony and patiently waited for it to receive whatever response this forum was willing to give it, this thread would have been long over by now. Without causing any upset whatsoever, except in the bosom of the OP. And I certainly wouldn't have contributed a single syllable to it. As I said a few posts ago: I listened to the work on the day it got posted, and quickly arrived at the decision not to comment on it.

However, the moment when Mr. Kersten's gluttonous desire for applause and acclaim got the better of him and found expression in comments (since deleted) which insulted the entire community, things changed. The implication in what he said — that his symphony was a string of musical pearls and we a troupe of musical swine — was of such unpleasant arrogance that it needed responding to, I felt. At that moment, the music itself and any serious, respectful criticism it might invite, stopped being the focus of this thread. It was the blasé and haughty stance of its author, placing himself well above of what he considered to be our capabilities of musical judgement and appreciaton, which suddenly took centre stage and polluted everything that followed.

Moreover, there was never any ground for healthy criticism in this thread to begin with anyway. Mr. Kersten made that quite impossible very early on: as he said so himself, he didn't post the work to trigger an honest and possibly interesting discussion about the music's merits and flaws. No, sir. He posted the symphony only expecting it to be praised and its composer celebrated. "Thank you"-notes, and nothing but that, was all he had in readiness to flesh out the remainder of his contributions with. Just read how violently he responds to Muk's words. Surely, this is a man who simply isn't prepared to accept even the gentlest of criticisms?

So, wise, nice and friendly though all these invitations — from you, Guy, Dave and several others — to treat one another here with kindness, positivity, understanding and respect may be, and they definitely are, it doesn't really apply to this particular thread, I believe, as any such goodwill on our part was pretty much killed off the moment the thread started.

_


----------



## Maxtrixbass

re-peat said:


> That's all very well, Maxtrix, and I don't disagree with any of it, but it is somewhat besides the point in that it, just like the previous appeals for nicety and respect, keeps ignoring what actually happened in this thread and why it turned out the way it did. If Mr. Kersten had simply posted this symphony and patiently waited for it to receive whatever response this forum was willing to give it, this thread would have been long over by now.
> 
> _



Understood. I also addressed this side of the equation, though, in that it seems the "black hole of indifference" is the norm in at least 80% of the audience and at least another 10% won't like it regardless. Its a fact of the arts that is best understood and accepted. I agree with you that the reaction by Mr Kersten may have been rather, umm, extreme, but I believe he apologized for that and to that I give him credit.

I really do get all sides here as I have been guilty of all of it. For me, what I have realized over the years is to accept the indifference, to try to listen to critiques without becoming defensive, and to realize that accolades are also just another side of this three sided coin. Blowouts, and blowhards, do happen, but I do try to at least not feed the cycle.

Sometimes this is a challenge, but not "taking the bait" and letting whatever the reaction flow past is key to not loosing the joy of why we do this in the first place.

Something to keep in mind too is that learning is inherently challenging to the perception of our own successes. For example, I took some post grad composition lessons from a guy who didn't even like my "genre" of composition, yet he was better at it than I was! I felt like Salieri in the Amadeus movie. That was a real soul searching moment since I had already been at it for decades, but in the end I saw it as an opportunity, one which gave a huge expansion to my approach. I think because of that I give some room to those who also struggle with feedback, especially when it is true.


----------



## Guy Bacos

re-peat said:


> If Mr. Kersten had simply posted this symphony and patiently waited for it to receive whatever response this forum was willing to give it, this thread would have been long over by now. Without causing any upset whatsoever, except in the bosom of the OP. And I certainly wouldn't have contributed a single syllable to it. As I said a few posts ago: I listened to the work on the day it got posted, and quickly arrived at the decision not to comment on it.




If, if, if, if.... He said it, it's done, you can't rewind the past, but seems his ship has sunk, and you will make sure it stays at the bottom of the ocean if anybody dares see this differently.




re-peat said:


> However, the moment when Mr. Kersten's gluttonous desire for applause and acclaim got the better of him and found expression in comments (since deleted)




Haven't you ever regretted something you've said? Are you that perfect? Stop reminding the thread every few posts of that infamous post, and despite he apologized. Jeeze, give it a rest!




re-peat said:


> which insulted the entire community, things changed.




You are part of this community and one of the fine musicians and posters here, however, you do not represent the entire community, not sure what's this need to take a stand on behalf of VI Control community like head of a union. The more this thread goes, and sorry to say, the more it looks like you took this way too personally, especially the way you look so unforgiving about it.


----------



## WilliamKersten

Thanks so much Guy.


Anyway, I appreciate so much the kind comments on this piece. They give me great encouragement.


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## bbunker

Bill. Again with the typing in vitriol, then coming back and editing it to be less petulant, less arrogant, dialing the bile down a bit. Which - I suppose is good? That you do come back and edit it?

You are indeed your own worst enemy. You might edit away the more horrid comments, but people see them in the interim, and it does you no favors. Maybe just put your thoughts away in a drawer for a while, and then post? So that you only post the edited version?

Guy has a great deal of currency, here and everywhere, really. But posting right after his post with a missive against all who've wronged you, against "academics" - whatever you're defining that as - generally and specifically? IN THE VERY NEXT POST after Guy's rather touching comments to put aside past mistakes? Not cool. And then flyposting more links in the same post? I know the internet operates differently from people all sitting in a room, but - I don't know, man. It just feels more than a bit shameless.

I mean: either you shout at people, and post links to your pieces everywhere, or you resign? Maybe consider just being a part of the forum for a bit? Scoping out the conversation? Seeing what's going on? Getting relationships with others going before you'd ask them to listen to your stuff? So it doesn't feel like you're only here to get something transactionally?

Anyway - thanks for editing your last post, I guess?


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## muk

Having been on the receiving end of some very personal insults - unlike you @Guy Bacos - I must say I feel much less conciliatory. Insults I see no apology for, just a general 'sorry what this thread descended into'. And reading on the VSL forum that this is Mr. Kersten's normal modus operandi: lashing out at people, post a cursory apology, throw the next temper tantrum. He can keep his half-assed apologies to himself. If you can't post without insulting people and attacking their person, in my opinion you have no business posting here at all. See, there's a huge difference between writing something that you regret and apoligizing for it once. Or twice. Or even thrice. And doing it for basically every other post you make. Where's the use in apologizing for something you are not going to change? 

Having contributed nothing at all to this forum, Mr. Kersten is drawing a lot of attention with his rogue entrance. Attention other forum members who posted their music and are getting no response were much more deserving of. So, in my opinion this forum would be better off without Mr. Kersten. 

And one more thing. I am working for a professional orchestra of some renown. We are approached by composers on a regular basis about a possibility of a performance of their music. Standards are high and this 'Romantic Symphony' would never make the cut. Singing its high praises will do nothing to change that. 
But even if Mr. Kersten had written something that could make the cut, it would not be performed. Simply because, having experienced a bit of his rather unpleasant internet-persona, we would be certain that it would not be a professional nor nice working experience. Believe it or not, there is no lack of people who are both, extremely talented composers and equipped with a professional attitude.

And this, hopefully, will be the last I'll ever post on anything Kersten-based. Lest I too will loose my manners and dish out some choice words myself.


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## I like music

Didn't realise there was editing going on. If person A posts something, then person B responds, and then person A edits the original post AFTERWARDS, does the "original and unedited" post sit somewhere for everyone to be seen? Otherwise, person B's response might look over-the-top to people who didn't read person A's unedited post? Just curious!


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## Kas

I enjoyed the piece but I also enjoyed tremendously re-peat's comments which, as always, from a literary point of view, are always a pleasure to read. I regret that when I posted my first piece in this forum I was humble enough to escape re-peat's notice so my chance to be roasted by him is long gone now.


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## ka00

I like music said:


> Didn't realise there was editing going on. If person A posts something, then person B responds, and then person A edits the original post AFTERWARDS, does the "original and unedited" post sit somewhere for everyone to be seen? Otherwise, person B's response might look over-the-top to people who didn't read person A's unedited post? Just curious!



I guess in the case of a response which might look over-the-top without context, it would be best practice to quote the post you’re replying to in full. I don’t always do that but this thread serves as a good reminder to do so.


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## I like music

ka00 said:


> I guess in the case of a response which might look over-the-top without context, it would be best practice to quote the post you’re replying to in full. I don’t always do that but this thread serves as a good reminder to do so.



Understood. Not that I plan on getting involve in controversial things, but it is helpful to know this. Thanks!


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## Zero&One

Yeah, editing previous posts is not good. The main reason this isn't


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## Guy Bacos

I was hoping for a reboot after that apology, I guess in the end that didn't happen, raw emotions got the best of William and must deal with the consequences now. Hopefully he will see this as a learning experience, cause he does have talent and a lot to offer. That's it for me here.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau

*PLOT SUMMARY : *

William : Hey, here is my symphony.
Vi-C : ...
William : YOU MORONS.
William : Sorry about that.
Vi-C : Wonderful !
Vi-C : Impressive !
Vi-C : Fantastic !
William : Thank you guys <3
Vi-C : Sorry, I didn't like it.
Vi-C : Sorry, I didn't like it either.
William : YOU MORONS.
William : Sorry about that.
Vi-C : Guys, please be cool with William. He is sometimes too sensitive and passionate about his music, but very cool and helpful.
William : Yeah, I'm sorry.
Vi-C : Sorry, didn't like it either. You're a talented composer, but you should definitely take lessons from a scholared and experienced composer.
Vi-C : How dare you...© William was apologizing and now you're being rude with him again !
Vi-C : Why are you being bad with William ?
Vi-C : You're telling William he should pursue academic training but YOUR OWN MUSIC IS VERY BAD.
Vi-C : You morons.
Vi-C : Nice piece of music ! Maybe you should draw somes curves for CC1 and CC11. And add some vibrato.
Vi-C : Didn't like it, but great job nonetheless. 
Vi-C : I Did like it. You can't please everyone.
Vi-C : Yeah, maybe we're a bit rude, but William was a moron in the first place.
Vi-C : HE SAID HE WAS SORRY OKAY ?
William : YOU MORONS.
William : Sorry about that.


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## markleake

WilliamKersten said:


> I won't be accepted by Muck's renowned orchestra. I am so sad now. You know, I may lose around 20 seconds of sleep tonight. Almost as much as I've lost - a full 30 seconds - due to the peerless, scathing critique of Mr. Repeat (who knows the correct spelling of Delerue as his greatest accomplishment yet).
> 
> Oh well, this forum has proven to be a lot of entertainment. And exposure. Thank you!


I'm curious though, what *kind* of exposure are you looking for?

In my experience it's unusual to troll other people in forums where peers are likely to see the roadkill.

Edit: By peers I mean your professional or working peers.


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## Dear Villain

Perhaps it's time for this thread to move to the drama zone. Sensitive musicians + ego = endless "last word" posts. The composer knows where he stands with those that appreciate his work and those that don't. Let's get back to a more civil discourse.

Dave


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## NoamL

Well at least the drama got people to listen to this symphony!



BlackDorito said:


> My reaction is mixed. The music grabbed me in local spots .. but generally seemed to be a long string of late romantic gestures. These were admirably executed - some were slow, delicate and beautiful, some bombastic - which provided some interest. As the music unfolded, I was not following it very well because the thematic material didn't cohere for me - I couldn't anticipate what would happen next.



That summed it up for me too. I didn't have as much of a bizarrely negative reaction as Piet (who has some chip on his shoulder about concert music and academia).

William there is craft to admire here. There are 2 issues with the symphony for me. First is that it's the sum of its influences. It sounds like a collection of direct excerpts from 1880-1910 works. Nothing wrong with being influenced by those masterpieces but I'd like to hear more of your voice _with_ those influences. @Dave Connor mentioned Stravinsky's neoclassical period which is an interesting comparison. I think those pieces still scream "Stravinsky," they have his rhythmic and orchestration DNA in them. Haydn could not have written the 'Symphony of Psalms'...

Second issue is that the piece is very dramatic, it's trying to make a big statement. I like that. But for it to work I think there are two necessities. The 1st movement should be more narrowly focused, or even obsessed, with some very iconic & memorable theme that is presented directly and developed clearly. I love composers like Dvorak and Prokofiev, and I think history has been kinder to them than it otherwise would have, because of the directness of their musical language. As it is now your symphony reminds me a bit of Mahler who is always very dramatic & intense but I can never get into his work because it doesn't feel organized enough. To me he always feels like he's doing a series of dramatic interludes. This is probably a your-mileage-may-vary thing as there's many people who feel Mahler is the greatest writer ever and have no difficulty following him. The other necessity is that you HAVE to steer clear of some of the things you're doing with orchestration and harmony in your climaxes. I can't be more specific without transcribing the piece but there are some moments like 6:54, 5:00, etc they just seem plucked straight from Bruckner or even worse from some black-and-white 1930s film score that aged horribly. I think this is what people are picking up on when they used the unfortunate word "cliche" to describe parts of this symphony. I don't think it's all cliched but there are some moments in there that really grate on me as being both predictable and unavoidably old fashioned... like "Here comes the m7b5.... and there it is". If you take them out and bring forward more of your own voice it'll be such an improvement.

Admittedly I only had time this morning to listen to the first 10 minutes. I won't condescend to you or pretend that I'm a better composer. This is just my feedback as a listener.

Could not agree more with everything @josejherring wrote! It is such a challenge artistically and financially for any artist to devote a part of their life to trying to make a genuinely meaningful and new piece of concert music and I admire that you took that challenge.

Anyway, that's just my opinion, you morons.


----------



## re-peat

NoamL said:


> Piet (who has some chip on his shoulder about concert music and academia).



Hi Noam,

I hope you're not suggesting that I'm suspicious of, or biased against anything to do with concert music and/or academia. Because nothing — and that means: _nothing _— could be further from the truth. (As, I believe, anyone who knows me a bit better than forum relations allow for, has heard some of my music, read my contributions to discussions that deal with this subject matter, or is familiar with my SoundBoard-posts on various composers and their work, will testify.)
I hold concert music, historical awareness & perspective, education, technical knowledge and mastery of craft in the highest possible regard.

What I *am* suspicious of though, is composers craving approval from the academic world and being prepared — not necessarily knowingly, but no less perceptibly for it — to ignore their former artistically successful self in the hope, so it seems anyway, of being allowed into the illustre circles of the academic and intellectual elite. And forgive me, but I find most of this "rite of passage music" unspeakably boring. John Williams' concert works, Duke Ellington's symphonic excursions, Leonard Bernstein's "serious" stuff, much of Gershwin's post-Rhapsody-in-Blue non-Broadway catalog, Brubeck's efforts, Gerry Mulligan's flirtations with "serious music" ... heck, even Zappa's LSO orchestral work ... the list is depressingly long (and includes several of my favourite composers/musicians of the 20th century). The worst thing that ever happened to Mingus' music was Gunther Schuller — whom I otherwise admire enormously -- turning it into "serious" music. And killing it in the process.

For some reason, I honestly don't know why (although I have a few ideas), this craving seems to be particularly strong among American composers and musicians (although it occurs in all other continents as well, obviously.) After a few years, or decades, of wide-spread and often huge success, many of these artists seem to get increasingly uncomfortable being considered "composers of entertainment or light music". (As opposed to: serious music, a distinction the sense of which has always eluded me.) It doesn't matter that it is light music of the highest quality — oftentimes much better, more original and inspired, and as such, paradoxically, much _less _lighter and trivial than a lot of serious music —, there still seems to be an as yet unfilled hole in their soul, a sort of incompleteness to their sense of pride and achievement, that can only be filled, so they believe, if they can also convince the intellectual and academic coteries of their artistic worth. It's that kind of lofty, varsity-type prestige they seem to grow to desire more strongly than anything else.

And to that end, they usually turn out drab, conformist music that has none, or very little anyway, of the sparkle, ingenuity, personality, audacity and creativity of their unburdened-with-craving-serious-approval-music. Odd and fascinating phenomenon.

_


----------



## Guy Bacos

I'd be curious if everyone in this thread, if they'd have to say what they wrote face to face with the person concerned, including William, would they express themselves the same way?


----------



## Alex Fraser

Guy Bacos said:


> I'd be curious if everyone in this thread, if they'd have to say what they wrote face to face with the person concerned, including William, would they express themselves the same way?


That’s my bugbear of forum chat in general. The quick answer is nope.


----------



## muk

Guy Bacos said:


> I'd be curious if everyone in this thread, if they'd have to say what they wrote face to face with the person concerned, including William, would they express themselves the same way?



Not in my case. Had I been presented with Mr. Turdsten's dribble and insults in person I would have responded much less calm and measured than I have here.

Also, I strongly disagree with your implicit notion that both sides are equally to blame. My critque was reasonable and polite. His explosion of insults was totally out of the blue and uncalled for.


----------



## Vischebaste

re-peat said:


> I hope you're not suggesting that I'm suspicious of, or biased against anything to do with concert music and/or academia. Because nothing — and that means: _nothing _— could be further from the truth.



What about if someone claimed that your legs were made from asparagus - would _that _be further from the truth?


----------



## Guy Bacos

muk said:


> Not in my case. Had I been presented with Mr. Turdsten's dribble and insults in person I would have responded much less calm and measured than I have here.



That's why I included William.


----------



## mikeh-375

I'm a big fan of William's (no not the OP) and Bernstein's concert music (especially his symphonies) some of which is very moving and nicely written. Hell, I even like an American in Paris.....


----------



## synkrotron

Must. Stop. Reading.

Kind of compelling, though.





I'll get me coat


----------



## BlackDorito

Guy Bacos said:


> face to face


If we were face to face, this sub-forum would be somewhat like a grad school music seminar where we are listening and critiquing. The critiquing would undoubtedly be more diplomatic when you are eyeball to eyeball.

Some people instead might imagine that this is more like a salon performance, with some educated listeners. The listeners that wanted to be encouraging would clap loudly, and the ones that were not moved might not clap at all. If the the performers stood up and said "The clapping isn't loud enough!" some listeners might be offended.


----------



## Guy Bacos

muk said:


> Also, I strongly disagree with your implicit notion that both sides are equally to blame.



Could you quote me on that?

All I said was, mind you I never saw the initial post that started it all, but I was hoping for a sincere apology, and that would of been the end of it, and we talk about his piece. I couldn't of anticipated more outbursts. Don't give the impression I want to protect him at all cost, I said he will now have to deal with the consequences following his later reactions.


----------



## Guy Bacos

BlackDorito said:


> If we were face to face, this sub-forum would be somewhat like a grad school music seminar where we are listening and critiquing. The critiquing would undoubtedly be more diplomatic when you are eyeball to eyeball.
> 
> Some people instead might imagine that this is more like a salon performance, with some educated listeners. The listeners that wanted to be encouraging would clap loudly, and the ones that were not moved might not clap at all. If the the performers stood up and said "The clapping isn't loud enough!" some listeners might be offended.



?

My point was that, and I said it earlier, there's a right balance. Look, I've had some pretty good teachers and well respected names, and wheteher it was face to face or written on paper, it was never expressed as what we saw on this thread, and they all contributed to me improving. Once again 2 wrongs don't make a right, William behaved like an idiot, but he should of been told this independently from his work. Let's be honest here, some users used his piece to get back at him, and I'm pretty sure the triggered anger, especially from re-peat was used to demolish his work and somehow felt it was his duty to put William back at his place. This is what I didn't appreciate. It would of been better to let a moderator deal with William's behaviour, independently from his musical work.


----------



## BlackDorito

Guy Bacos said:


> there's a right balance


I know ... totally agree  My (devious) mind is simply thinking there should be a 'Salon' area and a 'Seminar' area .. the latter might need a sign like at Redbanned: "Enter if you dare".


----------



## Brian99

re-peat said:


> For some reason, I honestly don't know why (although I have a few ideas), this craving seems to be particularly strong among American composers and musicians (although it occurs in all other continents as well, obviously.)



Being an American I can totally agree with what you're saying to some extent. I do believe it is more prevalent with certain age groups or "generations". I work with and socialize with quite a few people who are part of the "millenial" generation. I've never witnessed a more entitled group of people. This is in no way representative of 100% of the people in that classification, but in my experience it definitely defines the majority. Most of these "kids" grew up with bedroom walls full of participation trophies and being told that everything they do is "awesome" and "great" and "you're an amazing person" by everybody they know. The unfortunate truth is when these "kids" get older and are in the real world they have no idea how to handle or to react to being told they are wrong or to negative criticism. I'm sure this happens elsewhere as well, but it's unfortunate that life lessons aren't taught before entering the "real world".


----------



## muk

Guy Bacos said:


> I said he will now have to deal with the consequences following his later reactions.



That you did. And then you came back and wrote this:



Guy Bacos said:


> I'd be curious if everyone in this thread, if they'd have to say what they wrote face to face with the person concerned, including William, would they express themselves the same way?



And that reads very apologetic to me. The word 'everyone' does include both sides. And to me that does implicitly excuse his behaviour, as it reads like the other side is to blame as well.

What actually happened from my point of view is that I posted a mild and polite critic of the piece that was meant to be constructive. What followed was a suada of personal insults. And in that context your post does read very apologetic.


----------



## Guy Bacos

muk said:


> That you did. And then you came back and wrote this:
> 
> 
> 
> And that reads very apologetic to me. The word 'everyone' does include both sides. And to me that does implicitly excuse his behaviour, as it reads like the other side is to blame as well.
> 
> What actually happened from my point of view is that I posted a mild and polite critic of the piece that was meant to be constructive. What followed was a suada of personal insults. And in that context your post does read very apologetic.



Not sure if you read my previous post, but I fear I'm just repeating myself. William was in the wrong, and his behaviousr was uncalled for, a mod should of taken action... but using his piece to trash him and teach him a lesson on his inapropriate behaviour, and you may not agree, but that's my opinion, was also wrong. And to me, this is a perfect example of 2 wrongs don't make a right. Following that, William dug himself into a grave, that's where I couldn't defend him anymore.


----------



## gtrwll

bzyboy said:


> The unfortunate truth is when these "kids" get older and are in the real world they have no idea how to handle or to react to being told they are wrong or to negative criticism.



I'm not sure if this discussion would be a prime example of grown up adults raised on a mindset of a different age handling that area better...


----------



## NoamL

Guys.... @Guy Bacos is correct.

_"bored stiff"

"an ordeal"

"merciless tedium"

"no joy, no true musical excitement, not a single moment of thought-provoking inventiveness"

"wallows in its own seriousness"

"yawn" worthy

"begs desperately for applause"

"banal, bombastic, vulgar"

"pseudo-emotion"

"a second-rate composer" would "be embarrassed"

"has nothing to say"

"weak and flimsy"

"no inspiration"

"pathetically disappointing"

"dull, bland, forgettable"

shortening it would be "an act of kindness"

"not even the slightest possibility for joy or enjoyment"

"pretentious"

"a drag... a waste of time"

"depressing, dreary, self-indulgent and rather pretentious seriousness from the first second to the last"_

and what he considered, I suppose, a masterful finishing blow -

_"an experience that an audience will sit through with numbing resignation, and when they applaud its ending, which they will because protocol instructs them to, that applause is first of all a release of eagerly awaited relief and, secondly, these people applaud mostly themselves, and deservedly so, for having mustered the stamina and perseverance required to sit the whole thing out, silently suffering, without having lost their good manners."_

Read these in isolation and tell me again that Piet's post qualifies as "feedback."

Regardless of what William wrote in his deleted/revised post, there's not one line in @re-peat 's reply to him that suggests* how to improve the piece or write better music next time*.

To @BlackDorito 's point.... None of this is the kind of critical feedback I'd expect from my composition professor in a class or from my peers in a seminar or salon setting. Instead what it is a person exerting his vocabulary to the utmost to toe right up to the line of outright flaming. Surrounding the above comments with a bunch of "I'm sorry to say, but" (sure you are, Piet) and "I hope I can say this without causing upset" (oh, surely that wouldn't be your intention, Piet) doesn't change what this post is.

I studied with Ira Newborn (scored a buncha John Hughes films). He could be very harsh on student's work. But at least when he thought a piece was banal and stilted he would say it in two words instead of five hundred and then show me how to fix it.


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## muk

That post came to be after our fine William had insulted the whole forum as musical no-nothings for not giving him the adoration he feels entitled to. If you are excusing him for personal insults, then certainly you have to excuse this post which may insult the music, but not the person. And I wrote nothing of the sort. In fact I wrote something not too dissimilar to your own critique. Yet I was treated to the same inane tourette and personal insults. In my opinion his behaviour is inexcusable. All the more so since he made exactly the same poor show of himself on the VSL board. In my opinion this forum would be better off without this troll.


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## Dear Villain

I'd just like to add that as a composer that gave up a career to purposely devote myself full-time to composition, for little or no financial reward, I find great joy in sharing my music with others, and hope that it connects with listeners. When I get feedback, I appreciate it, even if it is not positive. The reality is, we all want to belong...we all want to feel like our work has meaning, and is appreciated. Absent financial rewards/fame/career advancement, all a composer has is the moment in which they write their music, and the inevitable moment where they share it with others. The composer can control the creative process, and find joy in their work once completed, but they have no power over how those that hear it, will receive it.

Had I received such a scathing review from an obviously learned individual like re-peat, I would likely have questioned the very reason I chose to compose in the first place. With malice, he brought forth some of the most hyper-critical, insensitive, demeaning, demoralizing, defacing comments I've ever read. 

Just imagine, the time invested in the entire project; a project done purely for the love of writing music. Is there any other endeavour on earth, where one can take the sum of 40 plus years of experience, pour their heart in to a project of such a large scale that takes weeks/months to complete, share it freely with others that also do the same thing, and then face an onslaught of hate?

I get it: "William started it." That is true. His inability to control his emotions led to some unwarranted comments. He absolutely is to be blamed for those comments. But, I would suggest that the responses that followed were not proportional. They were of a level of spitefulness and vindictiveness that were purposefully designed to humiliate and denigrate a fellow human being.

I recently completed a chamber piece called "When Doubt Arises." I wrote the following description to accompany the work. It, in my mind, suggests why such a thread has been so harmful, not only to the original poster, but those of us that struggle every day to believe in our art. Let's put an end to this thread, and go forward with a kind word for a fellow composer. If you don't find any meaning in someone's work, just pass on by quietly. Seriously, let's use our talent to elevate our fellow musicians. Offer a compliment, or a well-intentioned criticism. But stop with the over-the-top displays of intellectual superiority. 

When Doubt Arises:

Being a creative brings with it triumphant elation and demoralizing despair. When Doubt Arises for clarinet, piano, violin, and cello is a 2 movement work that seeks to explore the multitude of emotions experienced in the pursuit of artistic excellence. As a composer, during the writing process, I have gone from brimming with confidence in the opening twelve measures, to a feeling of helplessness a few measures later. The constant cycle of emotions is a natural part of the process, but it is never easy to cope with. The best solution I’ve found is to plough forward, always writing, always attempting to create something with meaning, while drowning out the noise of trepidation and uncertainty. Usually, by the end of the process, I feel confident that I’ve achieved my goal and that I’ll have vanquished the demon of doubt from my mind…until the next piece begins.

Dave


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## NoamL

muk said:


> If you are excusing him for personal insults



I'm not, because I didn't get a chance to read the original post.



muk said:


> In fact I wrote something not too dissimilar to your own critique.




I thought your critique was ok, and Jose's and BlackDorito's were helpful advice.


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## MartinH.

I think y'all are pouring gasoline on the fire that will forge "Here's my latest piece, you morons!" into the new meme that will soon be infesting the member compositions section, just like N has found its way into many other threads. It all starts as a joke...

Jokes aside, where do you take the time to keep this thread _still _going???


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## BlackDorito

DV's (Dave's) post was inspiring. Not to put them on the spot, but here's something else inspiring happening next door on this very sub-forum:






Fresh air.

-Chris (Morons for Justice)


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## re-peat

NoamL said:


> Guys.... @Guy Bacos is correct.



I don't think he is, *Noam*. First of all, Guy suggests that my words were written in anger, which is not true at all. Some mild annoyance at first, yes, but anger? Not a sprinkle. (Guy should know actually, cause when I _do _write in anger — something which he has been witness to, and even the recipient of, in the very distant past — my language and message are entirely different, in a most unpleasant way, from what I've been contributing here.) Come to think of it, except for one febrile moment during the Spitfire Studio Series discussions, I haven't written anything in anger since, well, I can't remember actually, but it's certainly been a few years.

Guy also insists, for some reason, that I've been taking things personally. Again: totally wrong observation. (And Guy knows it of course, it's just that it's inconvenient for him to admit to it.) Apart from the fact that 15 years at V.I., and carrying on the way I have, tends to strengthen one's dermisses a bit, there is nothing here that I could ever have taken personally. It needs more than a bit of clumsy sarcasm or the odd feeble insult for me to start taking things personally, I can assure you.
The only thing that really got to me, if you must know, was Greg's vile attempt at derailing Romy. That rankled a bit, yes. Firstly, because it was such a despicable manoeuvre, and secondly, and much more disappointingly, because I never expected such a thing from Greg. For me, one of the sadder experiences at V.I. in many a year.

Guy also misreads my words entirely when he says that I used Mr. Kersten's piece "to get back at him". I didn't do anything of the sort. I merely got acquainted with the music (and rather more thoroughly than giving it the 8 minutes you deemed it worthy of), gave my honest opinion about it — an opinion which I would write again tomorrow and not change a single word —, and I also said that, still in my strictly personal opinion, its quality (or better: absence thereof) didn't justify in any way the Pomp And Kerstenstance with which it was introduced to us.

I will admit though — it would be paltering with the truth to deny it — that I would have phrased certain things differently if the work had been presented to us with a modicum of humility. My private opinion about it would have been exactly the same, but I would have written it down wearing the velvet glove rather than revealing the naked iron fist. (If, that is, I decided to write anything down at all, because, as I said before, my first reaction was to stay out of this thread altogether.)

And that the OP's personality rubbed me the wrong way is something I would think I don't have to explain or apologize for. If you ask around, you'll find I'm not alone. Forums are littered with people who feel the exact same way. Mr. Kersten appears to be a wrong-way-rubber extraordinaire. Wouldn't wanna have to feed all the wrong-way-rubbed, is what I'm saying.

By the way, Noam, you do realize, I hope, that selectively quoting from what I wrote, presenting those quotes without context and omitting to include what led up to them — you never even read what led up to them, it appears — , is a rather unfair and unbalanced representation of my thoughts on the matter.

And there seems to be more that you either haven't read or read inattentively, otherwise you wouldn't have put that comment about me not offering any helpful advice in bold yellow type. As I explained before: the OP made it very clear early on that _he wasn't interested in any of that_. He descended from the Reno Heavens upon us to grant us — poor salieris who suffer from rigor zimmeris — the opportunity to bask in the glowing beauty of His Music. And he expected nothing but glowing reviews — no advice, no suggestions, a certainly no criticism — in return. That was the idea.

And then the thing started which Whitewasteland summed up so admirably on the previous page of this thread.

Look, you may keep pointing at me as the torpedo responsible for its demise all you want, but if the USS Kersten has been making fatal amounts of water, it's got only its captain to blame. No one else.

_


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## synergy543

re-peat said:


> The only thing that really got to me, if you must know, was Greg's vile attempt at derailing Romy. That rankled a bit, yes. Firstly, because it was such a despicable manoeuvre, and secondly, and much more disappointingly, because I never expected such a thing from Greg. For me, one of the sadder experiences at V.I. in many a year.


Piet, my post was in no way disparaging Romy, that is purely your assumption and interpretation. I simply posted a link to Romy's work (and I did search for the best example I could find) and that put her comments in perspective for myself. I left it for others to make their own decision. I did in fact find her educational links quite interesting though and I respect her work in this area. I'm sorry to disappoint you that I'm no Saint, though I'm tickled that you had that impression.

The fact that you've brought this up several times already makes me wonder what your true intent is other than to push buttons for a response. I do not wish ill upon you nor Romy, nor will I fall for the trigger bait. You're repeating your points over and over. So what would you like to do in this situation? You clearly didn't like William's comments so now what? Are you waiting for a public lynching or trying to inspire one? Maybe humiliate him to the point of destructive consequences? Seriously Re-peat, there's a point where it makes sense to let go and pushing beyond that point is extremely destructive. 

If you want to know what one of the sadder experiences on vi is for me, its watching so many talented people argue and fight with each other rather than discussing the common thread of music. You'd think the politics of the world would make us woke enough not to waste our time in a similar manner but rather focus and move forward with things that we value and feel are important. If you don't like what someone else is doing or saying, why not move on after making your position known? While it may be entertaining for some to read your witty attacks on others, its truly a sad use of your time and talent. While I respect your musicianship, I don't respect when you're repeatedly making harmful and hurtful attacks upon others seemingly for the purpose of triggering their buttons to elicit destructive responses. This is exactly how Keith Emerson ended his life, he was pressured simply by seemingly innocuous internet comments and criticism that endlessly rang in his ears until the point of pulling the trigger. They were only words, how bad can they be? Enough is enough. Lets just assume I'm wrong on all of this (my bad) and give you the benefit of doubt. Hopefully we can all move on toward more constructive pursuits rather than wasting more valuable time.


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## re-peat

Sorry, Greg, for starters, there was no need whatsoever to go tracking down some of Rowy's music and post a link to it. Without even asking the composer's permission. I mean, why? And that you just happened to pick a lightweight neo-classical excercise, rather than something more substantial, wasn't speaking in your favour either. Worst of all though, it was the nasty, derisive way in which you introduced the music: "no need for comments, buf if you do, please be kind" ...
All of which completely disproves your explanation today that the manoeuvre was intended for innocent private enlightment only. In short: I don't buy it.
(And I've only brought this up _once _before today, by the way, not 'several times already'.)

But that I find myself back in this thread and obliged to say one or two things which I touched upon already, is simply because of the chronic misunderstanding, willful misinterpretation or sneaky misrepresentaton of what I said before. Surely, after Guy's and Noam's recent posts — stirring things up again for god knows what reason —, one is entitled a few more words? So, please, be a bit less myopic when pointing at people who "can't let things go". Trust me, I wished the thread had come to a halt after Whitewasteland's summary of it — would have been a nice ending to what I, for one, still think has been a worthwile and educational journey —, but it didn't. Not of my doing, as any impartial observer will agree with.

And finally: I believe I can, and I'm certain I always will, decide for myself what is the best use of my time and talent, thank-you-very-much.

_


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## Alex Fraser

re-peat said:


> I will admit though — it would be paltering with the truth to deny it — that I would have phrased certain things differently if the work had been presented to us with a modicum of humility. My private opinion about it would have been exactly the same, but I would have written it down wearing the velvet glove rather than revealing the naked iron fist.


Aside from the fact that's possibly the most pompous thing I've ever read on VI control, is that seriously your argument, Piet? That he was nasty first so you had justification to be nasty also? That's something I have to tell my children off for.

Look - I read William's initial rant as it was published. Yes, it wasn't pleasant or clever *but* it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. It wasn't personal. Your followups however, were. They were vindictive and quite frankly, borderline bullying.

There's no "wilful misinterpretation or sneaky misrepresentation" of your words going on here. Despite the fact that William has edited his previous posts, even without a shred of context it's clear what you were saying. It helped no-one and was explicitly designed to be destructive.

You consider yourself a senior member and longstanding member of the forum? Act like it and set an example.


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## Rowy

synergy543 said:


> Piet, my post was in no way disparaging Romy, that is purely your assumption and interpretation. I simply posted a link to Romy's work (and I did search for the best example I could find) and that put her comments in perspective for myself. I left it for others to make their own decision. I did in fact find her educational links quite interesting though and I respect her work in this area. I'm sorry to disappoint you that I'm no Saint, though I'm tickled that you had that impression.



Who's Romy?


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## re-peat

Alex, Alex, Alex ....

Typical, I suppose, that you say there's no misinterpretation going on, right after giving us one of the more blatant examples of willful misreading of what I actually wrote. I said, and please focus and read this slowly, that _I might have written a bit more gently, if at all, if the work had been presented with some degree of humility_. Now, unless standard English is an entirely different language in your neck of the woods than it is in mine, it seems to me that this sentence is a completely different one from your translation which says: "You've been nasty, so that justifies me being nasty too."

And I hope you don't draw too much satisfaction from your second paragraph either, because reasoning-wise, it's also a bit of an embarrassement, if you don't mind me saying so. Let me explain. Of course, Mr Kersten didn't direct his initial outburst at anyone specific. How could he? He had just arrived, hadn't shaken hands with any individual yet, quickly deplored the reluctance and sobriety of V.I.'s welcome and, in response, lashed out at the community as a whole. Yes? Yes. (But as soon as a few of us stepped forward with individual opinions he hadn't counted on, he did a pretty convincing job — ask Muk — of becoming very personal and unpleasant. Something which you seem to have conveniently forgotten already.)
And in turn: who else if not the person who triggered a reaction from me, would I direct that reaction to? Tell me, please.

And you can go with a toothbrush for Lilliputian ants through my posts if you're so inclined, but you won't find a single phrase that the impartial observer — a good and trustworthy friend of mine — would call vindictive or bullying. (Unless, again, these words mean something different in your English than they do in mine.) Vindictive, in the English I'm familliar with, implies that some harm had been done to me and I was out for revenge. But no harm has come to me in this thread _at all_. None whatsoever. So how or why should I be vindictive?

Sure, I've been known to be more friendly with people than I was in my first post of this thread, I know that, but this one happens to contain what was and still is my opinion, and I remain of the unwavering belief that it includes nothing that, all things considered, was inappropriate.

Shall we draw a line under all of this and maybe divert our attentions elsewhere? I ask, because I beginning to experience the exact same state of mind as that which I felt at the beginning of this thread: being bored stiff. 

_


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## ka00

Umm... seems pretty clear to me what happened. Random dude walked into a bar, insulted everyone and called the place a dump and as a result was kicked out by one of the regulars defending the place.

Why are we fighting about it so much?


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## Rowy

re-peat said:


> Shall we draw a line under all of this and maybe divert our attentions elsewhere? I ask, because I beginning to experience the exact same state of mind as that which I felt at the beginning of this thread: being bored stiff.
> _



I admire your English. You're probably Dutch, like I am, but after I've written something in English, I have to lie down because I'm exhausted. I wish there were a Dutch forum about music composition and technique. Besides, the Dutch are used to being direct: Telegraph.

That's something I missed in this thread. The fact that there is a difference in culture. Americans and Brits are much more polite. They might even lie. The Dutch don't like to lie. Of course in The Netherlands everyone is used to this, but it can come as a shock to other nationalities:


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## Alex Fraser

re-peat said:


> Alex, Alex, Alex ....


(Sigh.) A clumsy attempt to condescend. Why bother? We're both adults, Piet.



re-peat said:


> Typical, I suppose, that you say there's no misinterpretation going on, right after giving us one of the more blatant examples of willful misreading of what I actually wrote. I said, and please focus and read this slowly, that _I might have written a bit more gently, if at all, if the work had been presented with some degree of humility_. Now, unless standard English is an entirely different language in your neck of the woods than it is in mine, it seems to me that this sentence is a completely different one from your translation which says: "You've been nasty, so that justifies me being nasty too."


Actually, on re-reading the messages, I stand corrected. What you're actually saying is that you "revealed your naked iron fist" because William didn't present his music humbly enough. That's even worse, Piet.



re-peat said:


> And I hope you don't draw too much satisfaction from your second paragraph either, because reasoning-wise, it's also a bit of an embarrassement, if you don't mind me saying so. Let me explain. Of course, Mr Kersten didn't direct his initial outburst at anyone specific. How could he? He had just arrived, hadn't shaken hands with any individual yet, quickly deplored the reluctance and sobriety of V.I.'s welcome and, in response, lashed out at the community as a whole. Yes? Yes. (But as soon as a few of us stepped forward with individual opinions he hadn't counted on, he did a pretty convincing job — ask Muk — of becoming very personal and unpleasant. Something which you seem to have conveniently forgotten already.)
> And in turn: who else if not the person who triggered a reaction from me, would I direct that reaction to? Tell me, please.


Let's run through this again. Please focus and read slowly. 
Yes, William's initial lashing out at the forum was unpleasant. His responses to critique equally so. But you were (weirdly) triggered by this and decided to act as judge, jury and executioner on "behalf of the community." A more sensible and self aware response would have been to let it go.



re-peat said:


> And you can go with a toothbrush for Lilliputian ants through my posts if you're so inclined, but you won't find a single phrase that the impartial observer — a good and trustworthy friend of mine — would call vindictive or bullying. (Unless, again, these words mean something different in your English than they do in mine.) Vindictive, in the English I'm familliar with, implies that some harm had been done to me and I was out for revenge. But no harm has come to me in this thread _at all_. None whatsoever. So how or why should I be vindictive?


You posts were vindictive precisely because they were specifically targeted.
Again, William's posts were not pleasant, but they were a purely emotional response to harsh criticism of months of work, and anyone with a shred of awareness would have seen this.
In reply, you specifically targeted William's music, knowing that's where you could hit hardest. And you kept on doing so. It was calculated. And that's very much a British definition of bullying. 



re-peat said:


> Shall we draw a line under all of this and maybe divert our attentions elsewhere?



The most sensible thing you've written so far. For his part, I see William has apologised. Any chance of you doing the same so we can end what's become a toxic thread?


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## Alex Fraser

ka00 said:


> Umm... seems pretty clear to me what happened. Random dude walked into a bar, insulted everyone and called the place a dump and as a result was kicked out by one of the regulars defending the place.
> 
> Why are we fighting about it so much?


Sure. But the classy thing to do would have been to calm the random dude down, offer him a beer and get the conversation going.


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## Zero&One

Just makes me (I'd assume others) not want to post music or examples here as the standard is way too high.


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## ka00

Alex Fraser said:


> Sure. But the classy thing to do would have been to calm the random dude down, offer him a beer and get the conversation going.



I hear you. This does again remind me that there are always cultural factors as well as differing personal styles at play on this forum. 

And certainly, the classy thing to do when slapped in the face is to not slap back. But it’s not an unexpected response. And that’s my point.


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## ka00

James H said:


> Just makes me (I'd assume others) not want to post music or examples here as the standard is way too high.



No, please post. It’s almost guaranteed you will not ever hear from people who don’t like your music. 

What happened in this thread is a very rare case. 

All anyone has to do to avoid this blowback is avoid seriously insulting the forum in their very first thread on it. Should be easy.


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## I like music

ka00 said:


> Should be easy.



Some will take that as the wrong sort of challenge...


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## chillbot

I like music said:


> Some will take that as the wrong sort of challenge...


Are you saying you don't like the subject title of my next post in member's comp "You Zimmer-loving twats will never be able to understand or appreciate this piece!"


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## Guy Bacos

If William wanted to create an impact with his work, I'd say he achieved that. 

To sum it up:

William was way out of line and if re-peat were to go into politics, his carrer would last 20 min.


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## I like music

Guy Bacos said:


> If William wanted to create an impact with his work, I'd say he achieved that.
> 
> To sum it up:
> 
> William was way out of line and if re-peat were to go into politics, his carrer would last 20 min.



I disagree on the 2nd point. Look at Donald Trump (not drawing a comparison between The Donald and re-peat btw)


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## I like music

chillbot said:


> Are you saying you don't like the subject title of my next post in member's comp "You Zimmer-loving twats will never be able to understand or appreciate this piece!"



Kind of redundant to call them Zimmer-loving twats, when, simply, 'twats' will do.

Haha, just kidding, of course.

Or am I? After this thread, I don't know...


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## Guy Bacos

I like music said:


> I disagree on the 2nd point. Look at Donald Trump (not drawing a comparison between The Donald and re-peat btw)



What??

The last thing I was thinking is Donald Trump.

I meant politics in the broader sense.


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## I like music

Guy Bacos said:


> What??
> 
> The last thing I was thinking is donald Trump.
> 
> I meant politics in the broader sense.



Oh, haha. The comparison was my own, wasn't putting words in your mouth. I was just saying that you can get by pretty far in (more and more broader) politics, even with a lack of tact, these days.


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## Guy Bacos

I like music said:


> Oh, haha. The comparison was my own, wasn't putting words in your mouth. I was just saying that you can get by pretty far in (more and more broader) politics, even with a lack of tact, these days.



Trump is getting to you


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## I like music

Wait, wait. I know what's happening here. I'm starting to add responses into a thread that is clearly cursed. I'm going to say goodbye, fully intending not to get involved any further, and be back in a couple of days despite my promise to not write anything more :D


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## I like music

Guy Bacos said:


> Trump is getting to you



He's not getting to you?! Teach me your ways...


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## I like music

I like music said:


> Wait, wait. I know what's happening here. I'm starting to add responses into a thread that is clearly cursed. I'm going to say goodbye, fully intending not to get involved any further, and be back in a couple of days despite my promise to not write anything more :D



That promise lasted 7 seconds. I knew it, cursed.


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## Guy Bacos

Nice to have some hunour in this thread, it needs it.


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## Alex Fraser

Guy Bacos said:


> Nice to have some hunour in this thread, it needs it.


Haha. I think the thread probably needs to burn now.
I'm out. If anyone wants me, I'll be drinking in that bar that @ka00 was talking about. I hear they have Guinness on tap.
A


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## Guy Bacos

Alex Fraser said:


> Haha. I think the thread probably needs to burn now.
> I'm out. If anyone wants me, I'll be drinking in that bar that @ka00 was talking about. I hear they have Guinness on tap.
> A



Wait for me.


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## Dear Villain

I just noticed that this thread has over 8,000 views and yet the Romantic Symphony on youtube has barely 650. That says all we need to know about "exposure" or what people prioritize. Even musicians are less willing to listen and comment on music than they are to view and/or participate in a controversial discussion. And we wonder why the media is filled with over-the-top headlines and offensive on-air personalities?


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## ka00

Dear Villain said:


> I just noticed that this thread has over 8,000 views and yet the Romantic Symphony on youtube has barely 650



To read an actively updated thread, you would have to view it multiple times since the conversation is added to several times per day. The music, on the other hand, needs only to be listened to once or twice to appreciate. That might explain the skewed numbers.


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## LamaRose

Anyone have a link to William's piece? All this banter and BS, yet no meat to feast upon.


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## synkrotron

LamaRose said:


> Anyone have a link to William's piece? All this banter and BS, yet no meat to feast upon.


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## LamaRose

Thanks @synkrotron


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## Mike Greene

I moved the last few posts to the Drama Zone and I'm locking this thread.


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## Marlon Brown

Mike Greene said:


> I moved the last few posts to the Drama Zone and I'm locking this thread.


Thank You!! It needs to end!


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## LamaRose

Mike Greene said:


> I moved the last few posts to the Drama Zone and I'm locking this thread.



LOCKDOWN!? You need to put a few folks in the hole... solitary confinement... or for the times, maybe a safe space, lol.


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## chillbot

Mike Greene said:


> I'm locking this thread.


Lockfail.


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## José Herring

In spite of the hyperbole this thread is actually really constructive. It got me seriously thinking that I should do more concert music. 

I think that if people can behave that the thread should continue. No need to go on the personal attack really.

I think we can turn the conversation around and bring it back to something more helpful.


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## chillbot

josejherring said:


> I think we can turn the conversation around and bring it back to something more helpful.


No u.


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## Mike Greene

Hmmm, apparently my thread-locking skills could use some work. (If it wasn't for André and Jayden, this forum would fall apart!) Okay, lets try this again ...

EDIT - I think I got it right this time!


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