# Mixing different libraries



## Carles (Dec 12, 2012)

Let's say that you have (just examples), Berlin Woodwinds, Cinebrass, Hollywood Strings Gold and Spitfire Percussion.

So you have libraries with different mic positions but also one or more with a single position (let's say too wet or in the case of HS Gold the releases are quite dry but the hall is embeded in the samples).
All recorded in different venues such as Teldex, Sony, EW and Air.

Theoretically all of them have been equalized by an experienced engineer and they should sound fine out of the box (each individually).

What's next to make them sounding all together?
What to do and most important, what not to do?

Cheers,
Carles


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## Justin Miller (Dec 12, 2012)

I think you should first write a piece and sequence it well so you can really hear the sample libraries play the piece back together in context... this will save you a lot of time instead of just playing patches at the keyboard and trying to make them work together. I think EQ is very important in mixing multiple libraries, but you can go a long way with just volume levels then tailor the EQ where needed and add a unified reverb through a send channel. 
LASS, Sample Modeling Brass, VSL, and Westgate need ER reverb impulses to sit them in the hall--I like Altiverb for this... (wish I would have bought it sooner since I spent forever fiddling with LASS to make it sound right, then I tried Altiverb and there was instant satisfaction.) If you use LASS and Altiverb, you can make a perfect blend with Berlin Woodwinds BTW, since there is the Teldex stage included in the library.


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## Mahlon (Dec 13, 2012)

Justin Miller @ Wed Dec 12 said:


> I think you should first write a piece and sequence it well so you can really hear the sample libraries play the piece back together in context... this will save you a lot of time instead of just playing patches at the keyboard and trying to make them work together. I think EQ is very important in mixing multiple libraries, but you can go a long way with just volume levels then tailor the EQ where needed and add a unified reverb through a send channel.



Excellent advice.

Mahlon


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## Gusfmm (Dec 13, 2012)

Let me just say that I, for one, fundamentally stay away from that kind of an issue. I don't believe it is an easy one to deal with, and I quite disagree with the previous recommendation about a send reverb successfully bridging the gap between each one of these considerably different libraries. In my experience, it won't.

I personally prefer to stick to dealing with more homogeneous sound sources to begin with, e.i. close-mic'ed, and blend them altogether within a space-staging enviroment (e.i. MIR, SPAT, etc.) that helps make my life easier at mixing.

In other words, as I see it, using HS gold for instance, is not a good idea. Again, I personally don't buy libraries that don't offer close-mic samples; and even some times the close-mic recordings are not dry enough for my like (and ability to work with them). This also helps me concentrate more in the music and a bit less in the technicalities.


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## Carles (Dec 14, 2012)

Thanks guys.
I have some music written already and that's the point, always sounds weird so I've stopped writing in order to find what's going on, and is not being easy.

I have many libraries so, the ability to test many combinations but no chance to get any new expensive library or plugin or whatever.

Perhaps the most redundant is EWQL stuff as I got the Composers Collection plus Hollywood strings plus Hollywood Brass (all gold versions, but all recorded in the same space theoretically).

While I like how they blend, Play is a problem. My PC i7 with 16 Gb RAM cannot handle a certain amount of Play load, no matter if the ASIO activity is low, Play eats all my RAM and the processors are blowing all the time.
The libraries are on a SSD so the load time is acceptable now but any project becomes terribly heavy to process.
Upgrading to Diamond will only make it worst, and I'm not willing to get a full new computer to run a library as logical.

I can combine these:
- BerlinWoodwinds
- Some Westgate WW
- Vienna Woodwinds SE
- EWQL SO (woodwinds)

- Samplemodeling Brass
- Cinebrass
- Hollywood Brass

- Spitfire Percussion
- Vienna Percussion SE
- EWQL SO (percussion)

- Hollywood Strings gold
- Cinematic Strings
- Adagio Violins
- Lass 2 Lite
- Vienna (chamber) SE
- Spitfire Solo strings

- Spitfire Loegria

- Virtual Sound Stage
- Lexicon MPX
- EWQL Spaces

So, all type of venues and recording techniques :(
And something conditioning even more the possible combinations, my strings of choice are Hollywood strings with difference.

In a ideal world I could sell some and complement the other but... those "so fair" policies from mostly of the companies by being not reselling friendly doesn't allow me to re-distribute my investment (not actually an investment as I'm just a hobbyist)

So I have to find the way to use the existing stuff as my budget is over for really long time.

Cheers,
Carles


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 14, 2012)

It's not my intent to hijack - but all these points are covered in Visual Orchestration 2 and by identifying specific libraries as well so that you understand the how and the why. Most of the libraries you listed are covered. I just added a 9th video lecture so by the end of the course, you'll be well on your way.

But you need to start small to get there, e.g., one library per orchestral section.


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## Carles (Dec 14, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ Fri Dec 14 said:


> It's not my intent to hijack - but all these points are covered in Visual Orchestration 2 and by identifying specific libraries as well so that you understand the how and the why. Most of the libraries you listed are covered. I just added a 9th video lecture so by the end of the course, you'll be well on your way.
> 
> But you need to start small to get there, e.g., one library per orchestral section.



Thanks Peter, I'm definitely interested in these videos (and perhaps in the previous series too). These courses are inexpensive compared to the price of the libraries.

Cheers,
Carles


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## Alwix (Dec 14, 2012)

Hi everybody! I have been reading and learning tons, but this is my first message. I love this site!  

Carles, I was in your situation for some time, and then I did something that really worked for me: 

If you have the instruments from the EWQL orchestra, which is a completely produced pack, with all the instruments, take them as a reference for level, eq and reverb. If you have QL Spaces also, there is an impulse reverb in there from the same hall in which EWQL was recorded, you can google it. 

That would leave you in a good starting point. Also, programming a piece that you like and adjusting the parameters to make them fit and then save those as your preset, I think that is also good. 

Sorry for my english


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## Dan Stearn (Dec 14, 2012)

+1 again, great advice here I think


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## Carles (Dec 16, 2012)

Alwix @ Fri Dec 14 said:


> Hi everybody! I have been reading and learning tons, but this is my first message. I love this site!
> 
> Carles, I was in your situation for some time, and then I did something that really worked for me:
> 
> ...



Thanks, that's a really good idea.


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## sinkd (Dec 17, 2012)

Carles,

I know that you said your budget was finis...but I do a lot of mixing of libraries and have found the Numerical Sound FORTI and SERTI impulse responses for Vienna Suite to be indispensable tools. The level of detail and precision that you can achieve, especially with early reflections, is rivaled only (possibly) by Altiverb, in my opinion. I also have Altiverb and use it a lot.

I ran the Spaces Demo and also liked it; I would ad it to my kit if $ were no object (along with SPAT, Aether, Lexicon PCM, etc. :wink: )

Your mixing issues have mainly to do with early reflections. In my experience, you can achieve good results with a send/return scheme, especially if you separate ERs and reverb tails on different aux channels. Experiment with single instruments (possibly with pre fade sends) until the ER mix is just right and then add tail. I am sure that you can accomplish this with Spaces. The advice about starting with the SO Front pair (do you have Platinum?) as a guide is very good because you will not be able to make the SO instruments any drier.

My template right now is as follows:

LASS 2 Full (my main string sections & solos)
Albion 1
VSL Appassionata
Orchestral Tools and Symphonic Sphere

Westagte Oboe & EH
VSL Woodwinds
VSL Horizon/Kontakt French Oboe collection
Hollywoodwinds
Berlin Woodwinds
EWQLSO English Horn (sort of obsessed with getting EH right, I guess :oops: )

VSL Brass I (using this a lot less except for when I want close miced or mute detail)
Hollywood Brass
Project SAM brass (again, using this much less now that I have HB, but I still love the picc tpt, for example)

True Strike 1 Perc
EWQLSO Platinum Perc

For LASS and VSL stuff, I use the Vienna Suite impulses in VE Pro (on slave PCs)
For Hollywood Brass I am mostly using the main tree and then mixing them with Altiverb inside of my DAW; just a slight "glaze" to match it up.

That about covers it. You have some great tools at your disposal, so have fun!

DS


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## Carles (Dec 18, 2012)

sinkd @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> Carles,
> 
> I know that you said your budget was finis...but I do a lot of mixing of libraries and have found the Numerical Sound FORTI and SERTI impulse responses for Vienna Suite to be indispensable tools. The level of detail and precision that you can achieve, especially with early reflections, is rivaled only (possibly) by Altiverb, in my opinion. I also have Altiverb and use it a lot.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the advice.
Btw, I'm kind of obsessed too, and not only EH but Oboe, glock and bass drum too (found already a solution for glock and bass drum though).

It's a pity that Vienna is too expensive for me (same for Spat) but hopefully I will be able to save some money in the future for high quality tools.

Still highly missing some beautiful expressive woodwinds and strings divisi's but again no way to spend 600 to upgrade Lass Lite at the moment.

Cheers,
Carles


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## The Darris (Apr 25, 2013)

Researching the tails of the different rooms the libraries were recorded in would help tremendously. For instance, let's say Air Lyndhurst (Albion series) has like a 2.5 second tail where as the Teldex has a 1.5 second tail. You'll want to combine these libraries into the same space. What I have done and it works for me is loading up QL Spaces and setting both libraries through their own instance but adding the necessary tails to BWW (teldex) to match it to Albion (Air) thus getting them in the same space. After that, it is all in the orchestration that will really balance them out as well as knowing the dynamic ranges in CC data.


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## ed buller (Apr 25, 2013)

i just watched mike verta's "secret weapons" and there is a simply brilliant tip for dealing with this very issue. Works like a charm. Very informative video 

e


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## Waywyn (Apr 25, 2013)

I didn't read through all comments but to be honest as mentioned in the beginning I wouldn't care at all until you composed a track. The thing is, every piece is different and every solution can sound different depending on the dynamics and the musical style (even within the orchestra). The only thing which really helped me is to really understand what EQ, reverb, compression and the likes really do. It is not about "put -1dB on 7634Hz to make lib x match with lib y. It is all about listening to the final track and then decide what you do.

As a stupid comparison: You know what you have to do to catch a ball.
You first have to see where it comes down, then you have to use your eyes and hands to observe how and when it comes down. I know this sounds superstupid, but it is actually the same you have to do when it comes to this. You know what your EQ does, what your reverb does and so on. Then use it when you see when the ball comes down = when you finished your track.

Me personally don't care about these things too much anymore. Tbh my efforts in matching all libs perfectly never sounded better than leaving everything as is and prolly just change a few minor things on the groups etc.
At 90% I find it much more beautiful to see and experience what sound/depth/juice all those combined libs result in.


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## Carles (Apr 26, 2013)

This is actually a quite old post, however it's been nice to get feedback as I still know "what" but nothing about "why". I mean, I´m capable to detect it but unable to fix it.

Alex, I understand your metaphor perfectly, the issue is that I see the ball moving but cannot guess in which direction :D

Sascha shared an important point IMO, I experienced that myself. The tail length is not as important as the "hue" or "color" of a given room.
And that desperates me, because every time I try to modify the color, as Alex said, I reach a point that sounds unnatural being more pleasant the original untouched.

At this regard, Alex's conclusion I think it's perfectly fine for composing tracks with a given style. It can provide a special character.
I'm not very long doing this but from what I see since couple years, I think I'm not wrong saying that I feel this kind of pleasant "character" in people like Alex or Colin O'Malley or Daniel James. Doesn't sound acoustically realistic the same than musicians playing in the same room, but has an attractive processed sound.

Then the good taste to balance those different sources is fundamental.

However that's not what I'm after, I'm looking for a credible* symphonic orchestra in my fingertips. (*Being samples it's hard to apply the term, "credible" but I think you know what I mean).

I loved Sasha's BWW demo, sounds very attractive sonically but also I feel it "credible".

I think it's a complex thing.
I got HS and HB and somehow they match better than other libraries but still doesn't feel the same space.
I think brass got more returned "color" of the room as they sound louder than strings so it excites more the room itself than strings getting back its reflections louder.
Once registered in the sample it's hard to remove with just EQ (specially for me, with no experience on sound treatment).
I heard HWW, recorded in the same hall is even more different, so loudness can change the perception of the same hall, so how can we expect that libraries recorded in different halls will match perfectly...

I'm currently working on some official demos for VSL and found MIR a great tool. However a combination of MIR with MIRacle sounds more pleasant than MIR alone IMO.
In the process of converting a dry sound to a wet one something is clearly missing.
Woodwinds becomes very convincing, but other not so well.

Vienna is less sensible to that than Samplemodeling, but still something's fails.
It's been curious to see that after experiencing with SampleModeling found that horns are probably the best example to describe that "porting error".
You add a nice reverb and horns playing p or mf sounds fantastic, realistic and detailed, but as much higher dynamics you get as much harsh becomes (more than it should be).
While in the real thing the aggressiveness gets pleasantly shiny with the "dry to wet porting" becomes just harsh, like brass sordino playing but very loud.

Vienna is way more "easy" than SM, so in less manner but still found a similar behaviour with horns.
Often find the 8 horns ensemble more close to what I expect as 4 horns, but not always.

In the case of SM, I did a test with 10 horns (4+4+2), each single horn had specific microtuning (as the source is only 4 different horns actually), individual dynamics and individual tempo differences.
Those fake 10 horns doesn't sounds like even 4 to me mostly time.
Being 1 or 2 of them FF and the rest just F or mF seems to be the most close to a horn ensemble playing FF (all 10 playing FF sounds harsh as hell) as the harsher ones loudness is 2/10 ot the total loudness (shine becomes smoother like the one heard in the wet samples).

For instance,as a completely opposite way, in HBrass found often 2 horns better than 4 as 2 horns offers more detail than 4 horns, so often convinces more as 4 horns than the actual 4 horns which are too dithered (found even more dithering in Cinebrass).
Layering a solo with the ensemble always works better IMO, you can morph from detail to dithered sonic richness or vice versa as required.

But that's a manual work.
So, not any dry samples or wet samples seems to be perfect so far.

However, after using intensively VSL for a while I have to say I love the way that dry (or near dry) samples allowed me a level of detail I never had with wet ones, (assisted of course by MIR to compensate my lack of experience handling sound).

I think the future is about to get better tools for "porting" a dry nature into a wet one, like this you can make it beehive as required, from accurate symphonic detail to dithered "epic" sound. 
We have currently tools to get close to that, but not there yet.
I have no Spat or other tools, but considering that MIR handles an insane amount of samples from a given room and it's an acclaimed achievement, but still doesn't 100% translate these high dynamic horns as a real space does, means to me that unfortunately it's a very complex equation, working partially already for some instruments (the less loud) but not entirely yet.

I'm afraid that the best answer for my initial question is "you need tools, instinct and lots of experience in order to be able to make your libraries to beehive as chameleons :D

Cheers,
Carles


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## germancomponist (Apr 26, 2013)

Carles,

did or do your programm synthesizers to get the sound you are after? 

I for myself think that one can learn so very much about "how sound is created" if you try to programm synthesizers. Here I mean not (only) to built bombastic pads, booms e.t.c., but trying to be after a natural instruments sound with the waveforms. After a while you have so much knowledge. In your head you break down a sound on into various components and know how to set the eq's, compressors, reverbs e.t.c. to get the "sound" you are after. You listen to a sound completely different. This knowledge helps a lot when mixing orchestra libs together what was recorded in different rooms. 

Gunther


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