# Why do 90% of the trailer music sound the same? Is it a hype to copy each other there?



## germancomponist

What do you think?


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## nikolas

I would imagine that part reason is that they use 'library tracks', or tracks which are premade (like the tracks from TJ and Nick...), so they do tend to sound the same if coming from the same composer, or the same track actually! :D

Then it's the trends. Heck if I was to work on a trailer, I would probably end up with very similar results... :-/

Now, copying (from SOL thread) is a different issue though...


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## germancomponist

Smile... . Isn`it poor
?


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## MichaelJM

Trailer music has a structure to it. There are aspects of right and wrong when it comes to writing successful trailer music. Of course, there's always composers trying new things, but the risk is it not being licensable. So perhaps this is one reason.

Another reason might be, it's easier and/or safer to write trailer music that sounds like everyone else.

Then again, everyone has a different opinion of what 'sounds the same'. Depending on where you look, I think there's a lot of variety. Then again, there is _so_ much production music, at different levels of quality, a lot of it is bound to sound the same. It also comes down to demand. Why are there so many unoriginal or bad movies?

(I'm not sure what you mean by your second question.)


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## Patrick_Gill

Hey,


I know what you mean.. !... I'm working on new cues myself and I like to think I'm adding in my own identity but I am also thinking of the commercial market, at the same time its frustrating because I don't want to sound like everyone else but clients seem to want that sound from what I gather..

With trailer music its popular to write action packed cues with epic choirs, heavy percussion, low brass hits etc (If this is what you're refering too). This is especially popular at the moment with clients after TSFH but more recently Zack Hemseys Mind Heist, i've heard a lot of influence. Especially after all the big Zimmer scores these past few years too 'Dark Knight' etc. Not to mention we're getting lot of big epic movies!!

I totally agree though, so much is starting to sound samey. I love it personally  but again there is only so much you can do with the trailer genre.. I guess the simple answer would be is that, it sells ..

Patrick.,


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## germancomponist

Smile, so I can earn o lot of money by using only some library music ( that always same sounding music... .) A cool market! ?!


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## clarkcontrol

You'd think so, right?

Truth is there is a convention to trailer music as with any other genre. I listen to Goa Trance music and I think it all sounds so similar. Others listen to b-bop jazz and all they hear is a ride cymbal swing pattern and a horn player noodling aimlessly on top.

Then there's the joke that Vivaldi wrote the same piece 200 times...


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## Brian Ralston

What most people fail to understand about the movie industry in general is that everything about it (the filmmaking itself, the PR, the trailers, etc...)* is a very specific manufactured and industrialized process. 
*
There are formulas that have proven successful and the nature of the profitability driven business thus dictates that it follow those proven models. This is everything from the format of a successful script...to the production of a film...to the casting of a film...to the marketing of that film and hence the creation of the trailers. 

Anything that deviates from those models will usually fail to find significant investors...or fail to become mainstream in society and make money. If the one exception to that rule comes along and creates a new model...folks will not take notice or define it as "a new model" until it has gone against all odds and proven itself on its own. 

As such...there is a lot of predictability and not a lot of uniqueness in the entertainment industry.


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## vasio

germancomponist @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> What do you think?



Why does 90% of R&B sound the same? Why does 90% of pop sound the same? Why does 90% of blues sound the same? Last but not least, why do 90% of the complaints about why music sounds the same .... sound the same?

Trailer music is a genre like other genre and has specific structures which defines it within that genre as belonging to that genre. Not rocket science.


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## rgames

vasio @ Tue Jul 26 said:


> germancomponist @ Wed Jul 27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why does 90% of R&B sound the same? Why does 90% of pop sound the same? Why does 90% of blues sound the same? Last but not least, why do 90% of the complaints about why music sounds the same .... sound the same?
> 
> Trailer music is a genre like other genre and has specific structures which defines it within that genre as belonging to that genre. Not rocket science.
Click to expand...


You can't really include vocal-driven music - the music is backdrop to the vocal, so as long as the words are different, then it doesn't matter if the music sounds the same.

Trailer music is not vocal driven and most of what I call "Trailer Trash" does, in fact, sound *remarkably* similar, moreso than almost any other type of non-vocal music.

Part of the problem is that there's almost never any real melody. Add the fact that you're always using the same basic instrumentation and modality and, well, you've pretty much forced it all to sound the same.

I've written a number of library tracks where I've tried to take that style and lay on some musically interesting elements. They don't sell very well...

rgames


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## RiffWraith

*vasio* - you beat me to it.


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## stonzthro

except that thing about Vivaldi - it's true


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## midphase

vasio @ Tue Jul 26 said:


> Trailer music is a genre like other genre and has specific structures which defines it within that genre as belonging to that genre. Not rocket science.



I disagree.

I'll tell you why trailer music sounds the same...because each and every time a music library asks a composer to write a new trailer cue, they always want him to reference an existing music track from another trailer...every fucking time.

Even though music libraries are always careful to cover their legal asses by telling their composers not to do a "soundalike", unavoidably they really truly aren't happy unless they get a soundalike from you.

That's the truth!


PS.

I fully agree with Brian R....it's a fucking business, not art...get over it.


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## vlado hudec

for all, who think the trailer music sounds the same, take a listen IM - Trailerhead or any album from TSFH - my favourite is Nemesis.

If it will be sounds the same for you, there is something wrong with you :D

I agree with vasio.


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## lux

Midphase scores the point here

that said...wasnt this exact thread up just a few months ago?

Gunther i'm supposing youre not a great fan for that stuff, as much as your best usage for a Taiko...is a synth :mrgreen:


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## Dan Mott

vlado hudec @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> for all, who think the trailer music sounds the same, take a listen IM - Trailerhead or any album from TSFH - my favourite is Nemesis.
> 
> If it will be sounds the same for you, there is something wrong with you :D
> 
> I agree with vasio.



Some of it sounds the same, and some of it is just amazing and unique. Just IMO.


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## SvK

Its the f$&cking choirs!!!!

Please sttoooppppppppp

No more choirs!!

Its lame

It makes me throw up in my mouth

Hahaha


SvK


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## Dan Mott

SvK @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> Its the f$&cking choirs!!!!



Yes. I agree. I hate that to be honest.

There I am enjoying a cool epic track, then......... CHOIRS. I turn it off.


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## lux

what is an epic track?


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## Dan Mott

lux @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> what is an epic track?



Sorry. Trailer track. You know...


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## germancomponist

SvK @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> Its the f$&cking choirs!!!!
> 
> Please sttoooppppppppp
> 
> No more choirs!!
> 
> Its lame
> 
> It makes me throw up in my mouth
> 
> Hahaha
> 
> 
> SvK



+1


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## TheUnfinished

I think there's some great trailer/epic music out there. I know a handful of composers who work in that area and the quality is often very good.

It's more that, as a style, it's quite fatiguing to listen to. I rally enjoyed TSFH's Invincible when it was first released, but I haven't listened to it in ages. Really well made, but you can often second guess where it's headed.

I do agree with the choirs comment though. Ubiquitous is an understatement. Epic choirs and metal guitar... stop it, stop it now. 

But, equally, if you don't like a genre of music it is going to all sound the same. There are few genres I cannot abide. I listen to all sorts of stuff from baroque choral work through to menacing substep. But you will never make me listen to modern R&B, Country and Western or Thrash Metal. Never!


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## Stephen Baysted

clarkcontrol @ Tue Jul 26 said:


> .
> 
> Then there's the joke that Vivaldi wrote the same piece 200 times...



It's 500 concerti, and they're all rather similar :mrgreen:


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## Dan Mott

Choirs suck. They are annoying and corny. My opinion.


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## lux

I wonder why this debate heads up here and there. My impression is that it is due to the mixed feelings trailers business evoke to musicians. It has been for ages the chimera of an entire generation of virtual composers. Mostly for the unstoppable rumors about money involved, stories and such.

As a matter of fact any attempt to create a sort of evaluation scheme for trailer music is aimed to a big failure. Thats because we're closer to sound design, a tough and often sublime form of sound design, than to traditional music composition. Its not music created to express a feeling or an artistical personality. Its a designed for a scope. Creating twisting emotion to people in order to make them move their fat asses and buy the fuckin ticket for the movie. The fact notes and traditional composition forms, orchestras, choirs, guitars, percussions are used is incidental. The track needs to work, not to please. Thats the rule.

My impression is that composers hoping and asking for a new deal of trailer music arent probably getting the sense of it.


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## bryla

Dan-Jay @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> Choirs suck. They are annoying and corny. My opinion.


And brass and woodwinds suck.... you only make music with strings and percussion then?


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## vlado hudec

Dan-Jay @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> vlado hudec @ Wed Jul 27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> for all, who think the trailer music sounds the same, take a listen IM - Trailerhead or any album from TSFH - my favourite is Nemesis.
> 
> If it will be sounds the same for you, there is something wrong with you :D
> 
> I agree with vasio.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of it sounds the same, and some of it is just amazing and unique. Just IMO.
Click to expand...


ok and take some metal, blues, pop, whatever album and result will be the same


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## Dan Mott

bryla @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Wed Jul 27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Choirs suck. They are annoying and corny. My opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> And brass and woodwinds suck.... you only make music with strings and percussion then?
Click to expand...


hehe.

No. Percussion. Synths. Strings. Vocals (solo). Sounds around the house. Sound FX. Sound effects with my mouth. Piano and more 

As you know. There are alot of things you can use besides - Brass, Woodwinds and choirs.


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## wesbender

I like choirs.


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## vlado hudec

One importat thing guys...

trailer music is not only orchesta + choir + guitars. Trailer music can be whatever style of music, depends on what genre of film it is. There are composers, which do only soundesign and they are composers for trailers.

Ok, orchestra + gothic choir can be a cliche for some people, but for me it is the art and I love it, esp. TJ's tracks. I can find a lot of power and emotions there, much more than any other styles and genres, faaar more like all classical composers together, actually I hate composers lilke Mozart, Bach, Ravel, Stravinsky..you can stone me to death :D


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## lux

vlado hudec @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> actually I hate composers lilke Mozart, Bach, Ravel, Stravinsky..you can stone me to death :D



At least you wont hear them complaining about that publicy


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## vlado hudec

lux @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> vlado hudec @ Wed Jul 27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> actually I hate composers lilke Mozart, Bach, Ravel, Stravinsky..you can stone me to death :D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At least you wont hear them complaining about that publicy
Click to expand...


:lol:


question for you guys :

we have films like LOTR, Spiderman, POTC, Fantastic Four...or any other action/fantasy movie. What kind of music would be OK for you in trailer for those films? jazz big band or part of Mahler's symphony?

When I see trailer for comedy movie, I always hear comedy music. In this case, it is also bad or cliche?


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## germancomponist

I do not criticize trailer itself! There are very well made trailer, for example such as those of TSFH.


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## maraskandi

It's rather fascinating that we as composers and musicians can be so anti-music, why are we being so negative about something so beautiful, how can we make blanket statements about the music of several great composers, perhaps not everything they wrote is to every person's taste, but come on guys, we as composers at least should have some appreciation for the passions of those composers, who dedicated their entire lives to writing music. How can musical people be so intent on slating music, have we actually really listened to all the works of Mozart, Ravel and co and found it all to be crap? From the mouth's of men who write and appreciate music themselves, surely it's not possible to be so constricted in ones view! Well, it's each persons choice, but I just find it unusually surprising!

Perhaps we need to consider the message this guy sticks his neck out to give:

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/benjamin_zander_on_music_and_passion.html (http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/benja ... ssion.html)


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## Waywyn

Gunther, obviously you don't understand this kind of industry since you ask this question over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again ... 

You could also ask: Why does every disco/club/party night plays music by Lady Gaga or Bon Jovi or Brian Adams or Scooter or whatever. Why does every ball night plays specific kinds of a Waltz over and over and over again. Why do dinner party bands play the real book standards over and over and over and over again. Why does it all sound the same, every night, every day, every week, every months?!

Gunther, it is absolutely dropdead easy.
The trailer and general media campaign industry is an industry who simply licenses tracks they think it fits their media campaign best - thats all. The same reason as a club night owner uses a track for its event because it is known, fits best and suites the trend. Okay? It is the same reason why people buy Jeans and if you check out people on the street almost every 4th or 5th person wears Jeans!


... hell, why I am answering this thread anyway. I know that Gunther will ask the same question next month ... and the very next months etc.


Also there is one thing you are not able to understand:
The composer has no influence on the cutters who prefers a track because it JUST FITS BEST for their needs.


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## Waywyn

SvK @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> Its the f$&cking choirs!!!!
> 
> Please sttoooppppppppp
> 
> No more choirs!!
> 
> Its lame
> 
> It makes me throw up in my mouth
> 
> Hahaha
> 
> 
> SvK




LOL, yes please, lets stop using those choirs ... and oh by the way, in all those rock tracks. Lets stop using 4/4 rhythm and just bass, snare, bass, bass, snare :D It's sooooo lame :D ... and I am also sick of Blues I - IV - V ... the same shit for like 200 years ... STOP IT!!! _-)


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## lux

aaahh, with Alex' reaction the typical Vi-control "trailer music related" thread is full-optional now :mrgreen:


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## vlado hudec

maraskandi @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> It's rather fascinating that we as composers and musicians can be so anti-music, why are we being so negative about something so beautiful, how can we make blanket statements about the music of several great composers, perhaps not everything they wrote is to every person's taste, but come on guys, we as composers at least should have some appreciation for the passions of those composers, who dedicated their entire lives to writing music. How can musical people be so intent on slating music, have we actually really listened to all the works of Mozart, Ravel and co and found it all to be crap? From the mouth's of men who write and appreciate music themselves, surely it's not possible to be so constricted in ones view! Well, it's each persons choice, but I just find it unusually surprising!
> 
> Perhaps we need to consider the message this guy sticks his neck out to give:
> 
> http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/benjamin_zander_on_music_and_passion.html (http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/benja ... ssion.html)



If you meant me, I used wrong word "hate", better is "I don't like"


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## vlado hudec

...and in my opinion, many of composers, who are angry when listen trailer music are the guys, who simply are not able to write good trailer cue _-) :lol:


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## lux

which is of course a reason to be forever unhappy


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## Waywyn

lux @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> aaahh, with Alex' reaction the typical Vi-control "trailer music related" thread is full-optional now :mrgreen:



Not at all, I am outta here again and have to work on my next few same sounding albums!

I just wanted to add my two cents, since this ignorant question comes up very frequently. Disregarding if it is just one track spread throughout 100 trailers or 10 traileralbums always seem to sound the same. Disregarding why all trailer tracks have those choirs (please note those tracks ALWAYS come in no choir version) and risers and builtups, ....

... you could almost ask the same about every other style. I remember mentioning that before and no, this is not anything different. Trailer music got the same structures, as:

- Jazz got mostly II - V - I and every musician wants to show off at a specific point!
- Blues got I - IV - V and almost every track starts with "When I woke up this morning"
- Rock got 4/4 beat. Bumm Baff BummBummBaff with 8th note hihat and cymbals on the 1
- Classic got all its cadences. When I listen to classic radio I seriosly ask myself why people always moan about modern music. These guys back then were ripping each others off as if there is no tomorrow! Hell, some of them are not just similar, they are almost the same!
- Church music: Almost every track contains: God or Jesus! How lame, isnt there more?
- Punk got I - V - VI - IV (and almost evey famous pop song)
- Filmmusic, mostly starts with that deep drone!


Please see this list with a grain of salt but this all could replace the same question which Gunther obviously loves to bring up almost every month. BECAUSE IT WORKS!

Start going into your job one morning as say: Happy Sunrise and I wish you a healthy breakfast ... wouldn't people start to look a bit odd? No, best thing which is familiar and ALWAYS WORKS is: Good morning, how are you?


One more add: Why do I do this? Because simply of ONE reason. Here on this forum are many startup composers ... and because of Gunthers repetitive question, people might to get a wrong impression on trailer music and the bizz in general ... and I for one, am one of those guys who keep the forum in a positive balance, since this forum is, was and hopefully will always be: Composers helping composers

.. and not People constantly bashing a specific style of music!!!


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## lux

i was of course just having fun.

Youre taking things too seriously. If you think your stuff has a solid artistical core then all you need to do is finding people which think alike.

No need to start a list with "all classic composers rippin eachother" type of stuff probably


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## Waywyn

Lux, you know me, I wasn't feel offended and the rest of my post was generally.

I am just surprised that people always looking for the artistical core in music theory.

I could also add that I hear lots of people music and it is almost a very repetitive thing which I noticed. As soon as those people with the highly trained artistic core start doing huge walls of percussion, they mostly miserably fail - due to one simple reason. It demands the same passion and knowledge to create a huge slamming wall of percussion which bombs someone away as a highly sophisticated classic track which is playing with the listeners mind in terms of music theory.

You could even compare it to fantasy characters. There are knights and barbarians who are slaughtering themselves through masses of opponents ... and there are the magicians and conjurors who have the power to cast mighty spells ... in the end, each of them got the same powers, but in different ways ... but let that sorcerer take up a sword or let the knight cast a spell ... it mostly doesn't go well .. as long as you learn to master both of it and accept that one is not better or more genius than the other!


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## maraskandi

vlado hudec @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> maraskandi @ Wed Jul 27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's rather fascinating that we as composers and musicians can be so anti-music, why are we being so negative about something so beautiful, how can we make blanket statements about the music of several great composers, perhaps not everything they wrote is to every person's taste, but come on guys, we as composers at least should have some appreciation for the passions of those composers, who dedicated their entire lives to writing music. How can musical people be so intent on slating music, have we actually really listened to all the works of Mozart, Ravel and co and found it all to be crap? From the mouth's of men who write and appreciate music themselves, surely it's not possible to be so constricted in ones view! Well, it's each persons choice, but I just find it unusually surprising!
> 
> Perhaps we need to consider the message this guy sticks his neck out to give:
> 
> http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/benjamin_zander_on_music_and_passion.html (http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/benja ... ssion.html)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you meant me, I used wrong word "hate", better is "I don't like"
Click to expand...


Haha, perhaps inside you there is a Ravel waiting to get out. 

Let's put our knitting needles in their holsters and go write some magical music! :o


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## Dan Mott

vlado hudec @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> ...and in my opinion, many of composers, who are angry when listen trailer music are the guys, who simply are not able to write good trailer cue _-) :lol:



No. I wouldn't assume that anyone here would be angry about trailer music because they can't write a good one them selves. I would get angry about this stuff because it's a passion. Us composers and hobbyists, swell as people who love listening to music - wish to hear something different for a change. Alot of people would straight away assume that a composer is jealous of another composer's work because they are angry at it, which is not the case for me and I'm sure others too. 

I get angry because I'm just sick of the cliche choir crap and brass crap. It makes you appreciate music so much more when you find a track that you truly love that is quite different and is separated from the masses. Lately I am struggling to find tracks I like, and the moment I find one I do like, I buy that song and just appreciate every moment of it. Who knows when trailer music will change. Everyone wants the same thing and are too scared to take risks, so they do what they know will make money, rather than try something completely outside the box. It works though, so I guess that's all that matters. Pop music is the same.


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## Patrick_Gill

I do agree that Choirs become a litte tiring in Trailers at times. Sometimes they sound like they've just been thrown in for the hell of it, refering to the Latin 'stac' articulations. They can change the drive of some pieces, not always for the good. At the same time they do sound awesome when used well!  I love 1000 ships underworld by TSFH.

It is a business and I also feel because the music is designed for a trailer, some tracks may appear repetative and not overly a great foreground listen, which is likely why TSFH include more conventional length songs on their albums. TSFH pull off great memorable theme's in their cues too, which I first thought many moons ago were frowned upon in trailer music.


Patrick.,


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## dedersen

Dan-Jay @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> I get angry because I'm just sick of the cliche choir crap and brass crap.



What does that even mean? "Cliche brass crap"?

I'm with Alex here, it's really odd seeing Gunther reiterate his points every few months. What purpose does it serve? The title of the thread alone reaks of trolling.

There's good trailer music and there's bad trailer music. Get over it, already.


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## Dan Mott

Just to clear up what I mean.

Brass crap = brass used in the same way as every other track you hear. Same notation structure and same purpose. I could write pages about this hehe.

Choir crap = I think you already know.


Aside from that. I like this discussion. Let people discuss, there's nothing wrong with this topic and it's interesting. To me at least.


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## vlado hudec

Dan-Jay @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> vlado hudec @ Wed Jul 27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...and in my opinion, many of composers, who are angry when listen trailer music are the guys, who simply are not able to write good trailer cue _-) :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. I wouldn't assume that anyone here would be angry about trailer music because they can't write a good one them selves. I would get angry about this stuff because it's a passion. Us composers and hobbyists, swell as people who love listening to music - wish to hear something different for a change. Alot of people would straight away assume that a composer is jealous of another composer's work because they are angry at it, which is not the case for me and I'm sure others too.
> 
> I get angry because I'm just sick of the cliche choir crap and brass crap. It makes you appreciate music so much more when you find a track that you truly love that is quite different and is separated from the masses. Lately I am struggling to find tracks I like, and the moment I find one I do like, I buy that song and just appreciate every moment of it. Who knows when trailer music will change. Everyone wants the same thing and are too scared to take risks, so they do what they know will make money, rather than try something completely outside the box. It works though, so I guess that's all that matters. Pop music is the same.
Click to expand...


Ok, but I don't understand why people listen trailer music or watch trailers, when they don't like it. Are you some kind of masochist ? :D

When I don't like some kind of music, I don't listen it. It is soooo simple.


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## devastat

The best trailer music I have ever heard is the in the trailer of 'Battle of Los Angeles', tho I suspect that the song by Johann Johannson was composed as a song and not as trailer music, but who knows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9otTzrO9Bfw

P.S I don't agree with the statement that 90% of the trailer music sounds the same..


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## Patrick_Gill

vlado hudec @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> ...and in my opinion, many of composers, who are angry when listen trailer music are the guys, who simply are not able to write good trailer cue _-) :lol:




You may have a point there =).. haha


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## lux

Waywyn @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> Lux, you know me, I wasn't feel offended and the rest of my post was generally.
> 
> I am just surprised that people always looking for the artistical core in music theory.
> 
> I could also add that I hear lots of people music and it is almost a very repetitive thing which I noticed. As soon as those people with the highly trained artistic core start doing huge walls of percussion, they mostly miserably fail - due to one simple reason. It demands the same passion and knowledge to create a huge slamming wall of percussion which bombs someone away as a highly sophisticated classic track which is playing with the listeners mind in terms of music theory.
> 
> You could even compare it to fantasy characters. There are knights and barbarians who are slaughtering themselves through masses of opponents ... and there are the magicians and conjurors who have the power to cast mighty spells ... in the end, each of them got the same powers, but in different ways ... but let that sorcerer take up a sword or let the knight cast a spell ... it mostly doesn't go well .. as long as you learn to master both of it and accept that one is not better or more genius than the other!



I'm not sure i understand where your argument leads. Geniuses? music theory? Barbarians? I feel confused.

Alex, i'll be sincere, is a bit hard to talk about the matter with you as you are sincerely the first guy i've met, involved in trailer writing, which seem to publicy deny the existence of a "tool" essence of the music. People which buy and use those cd's assemble chunks, bits from them. And cd's are already created to offer chunks, tools, risers, bangs, buildups, beds, dropdowns, codas. Its a game and rules frequently change.

You seem to give it a worse significance than I do. and that all the buddies i know which spend their life in trailer writing do. Not sure i see a reason for that. Gunther dislikes it, he's entitled to that. Ok. Have a laugh and just post a joke.

Also, i'm sure you consider that there is some business involved. My impression is that the composers who have a more traditional approach to composing would of course be happy to kick sound designers, who do music jobs, out of business. And the opposite, of course. 

So, reaction to styles and cliches arent just a matter of taste here. setting or fighting trends is a delicate business topic. A good way to have a fair conversation is stating it clear.


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## Andrew Christie

There is good and not so good music in each style and genre. It's that simple. 

Sorry to be a jackass but this is pointless thread.

I win.

Now let's all go to the Winchester for a cold pint and wait till it all blows over.

Peace,
Anders

o-[][]-o


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## Waywyn

You know lux, music is a constant everychanging circle. One style or trend goes away, another one will come up .. and there are always people who don't like a specific style of music ... but there are always also people who have this nazi antiracial approach to whatever style of music - why does this style of music exist, it is stupid, crappy and without any ideas, why does this style exist, it is always about bababa and woowoowoo ... we need real good sounding music here. There are even people out there, who talk bad about John Williams. That guy, a genius? He writes filmmusic? He is no genius composer. I am serious when saying this!

Again, every music got its taste, but if I don't like something, I simply don't listen ... and if I don't like trailer music, I come 20 minutes late or bring noise plugs. It is that easy.

It is this constant whining about pop, techno, rap, trailer music. Everything is so unintellectual, unintelligent, got no depth. It always reminds me of that white arian guy standing up on a hill bashing against all kinds of races. Or that guy thinking his job as a banking director is better, than that disposal guy who cleans his shit away every day, otherwise that banking director will drown in his own stuff.

But sometimes even painting a house wall is art in a specific way. Because it has to be done right .. and not being washed away after a heavy rain. It needs knowledge and skill to paint it that good, so it doesn't leave ugly marks or anything, specific muscles to be able to do it in 1 or 2 days (depending on the houses size ).

Besides that, I care so much because as I mentioned before. There are nots of start up composers in this forum .. and when somebody comes along, stating that ALL trailer music is 90% the same, then I am asking myself I am seriously def when browsing through Apples trailer website or any other ... because I hear beautiful, soft, emotional, rock, pop, electronic, drama, epic and choirs - it is all there.

Stating that 90% of ALL trailer tracks sound the same and that it is a hype to copy each other, then I say, this is utter bullshit!


----------



## Andrew Christie

Waywyn @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> You know lux, music is a constant everychanging circle. One style or trend goes away, another one will come up .. and there are always people who don't like a specific style of music ... but there are always also people who have this nazi antiracial approach to whatever style of music - why does this style of music exist, it is stupid, crappy and without any ideas, why does this style exist, it is always about bababa and woowoowoo ... we need real good sounding music here. There are even people out there, who talk bad about John Williams. That guy, a genius? He writes filmmusic? He is no genius composer. I am serious when saying this!
> 
> Again, every music got its taste, but if I don't like something, I simply don't listen ... and if I don't like trailer music, I come 20 minutes late or bring noise plugs. It is that easy.
> 
> It is this constant whining about pop, techno, rap, trailer music. Everything is so unintellectual, unintelligent, got no depth. It always reminds me of that white arian guy standing up on a hill bashing against all kinds of races. Or that guy thinking his job as a banking director is better, than that disposal guy who cleans his shit away every day, otherwise that banking director will drown in his own stuff.
> 
> But sometimes even painting a house wall is art in a specific way. Because it has to be done right .. and not being washed away after a heavy rain. It needs knowledge and skill to paint it that good, so it doesn't leave ugly marks or anything, specific muscles to be able to do it in 1 or 2 days (depending on the houses size ).
> 
> Besides that, I care so much because as I mentioned before. There are nots of start up composers in this forum .. and when somebody comes along, stating that ALL trailer music is 90% the same, then I am asking myself I am seriously def when browsing through Apples trailer website or any other ... because I hear beautiful, soft, emotional, rock, pop, electronic, drama, epic and choirs - it is all there.
> 
> Stating that 90% of ALL trailer tracks sound the same and that it is a hype to copy each other, then I say, this is utter bullshit!



Couldn't have said it better myself


----------



## Ed

I think the complaints about trailer music aren't entirely unjustifed, but having said that and without going into it more indepth, I would say that typically people complaining about trailer music more often than not cannot seem to recognise good examples of trailer music when they hear it either, so I don't take their opinions too seriously.


----------



## lux

a good way to not suffer cliches-based fast judgements is perhaps pointing out where cliches are, from within. A completely defensive approach rarely pays imo.


----------



## Ashermusic

It will be this way until a bunch of demographic tests reveal to the guys who make this crap that the potential customer base says "I am tired of this stuff all sounding the same. What is with all the whoosh sounds all the time and this constant bombastic assault?"

It is by and large musical rape rather than seduction IMHO. But that apparently appeals to a generation whose primary cultural influences are MTV, graphic novels, super-hero movies and video games.

Yeah, I know, I am a cranky old fart


----------



## Patrick_Gill

On another note.

This is of course personal taste. I actually feel a lot of ethereal down-tempo music works well in certain trailers. I love writing a lot of euphoric and emotional ambient music myself and I feel there is a lot more room for orchestral epic hybrids. I listened to a lot of Electronica,New Age, Chill-Out trance back in the day. Enigma ( <3), Chicane, Salt Tank,Thrillseekers,Ayla etc. I like to combine this with score music myself but I feel it could work in trailers under a certain film genre.

A good example of the vibe I mean in a more trailer retrospect is Jasper Blunks -Born In Light for the Liberis demo on Tonehammers website.. Or the Tron Legacy soundtrack + Vangelis & of course Enigma. TSFH tracks - After The Fall & Enigmatic Soul are great!  slower but still Epic and moving.


Patrick.


----------



## Dan Mott

Prehaps the guys who are complaining about us complaining about how trailer music sounds the same to our ears. Want to give us some links to some unique trailer tracks? Besides some TSFH stuff.


----------



## choc0thrax

The film industry is extremely risk-avoidant. You end up with everything sounding and looking the same as something which was successful. 

I don't find trailer music to be too similar that it bothers me but maybe I'm not watching the right trailers. For trailers and their music I really like: 

http://www.markwoollen.com/ 

Listen to some of the music of those featured trailers and they're all quite different.



P.S. welcome back Jay, after the 'bye bye Ashermusic' thread I had gotten worried this time you were actually going to leave! Should we make a thread for your return? o=?


----------



## Ashermusic

choc0thrax @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> P.S. welcome back Jay, after the 'bye bye Ashermusic' thread I had gotten worried this time you were actually going to leave! Should we make a thread for your return? o=?



Yes, that experiment simply did not work. When I as writing a statement that could be controversial it needs to be crystal clear when I am speaking as an EW rep and when not.

So you are stuck with both EW Lurker and Ashermusic unless I get banned


----------



## lux

i'll send you the bill for my psychian Jay, mind you.


----------



## Ashermusic

lux @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> i'll send you the bill for my psychian Jay, mind you.



:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## rgames

I think another way to describe the issue with trailer music is along the lines of what Jay was saying - there's no subtlety.

It's kind of like musical porn: there's no nuance, it's just right there in your face.

Also, the argument that much of classical music sounds the same doesn't hold water with me. Sure, there are cadences but at least there are MELODIES on top of those cadences to add some musical interest.

And again, rock, country, whatever do use standard harmonic progressions. But that music is not really about the music, it's about the vocal line and the lyric.

If you take those styles and remove the lyric or the melodic lead, then yeah, it does sound much the same.

But that's basically trailer music, right? 

rgames


----------



## Patrick_Gill

rgames @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> I think another way to describe the issue with trailer music is along the lines of what Jay was saying - there's no subtlety.
> 
> It's kind of like musical porn: there's no nuance, it's just right there in your face.
> 
> Also, the argument that much of classical music sounds the same doesn't hold water with me. Sure, there are cadences but at least there are MELODIES on top of those cadences to add some musical interest.
> 
> And again, rock, country, whatever do use standard harmonic progressions. But that music is not really about the music, it's about the vocal line and the lyric.
> 
> If you take those styles and remove the lyric or the melodic lead, then yeah, it does sound much the same.
> 
> But that's basically trailer music, right?
> 
> rgames




Pretty much ..


Idealy it would be nice to present a piece using melodies and themes in place of lyrics without it being too much in the foreground. Again TSFH are great at this for trailers.



Patrick.


----------



## germancomponist

rgames @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> I think another way to describe the issue with trailer music is along the lines of what Jay was saying - there's no subtlety.
> 
> It's kind of like musical porn: there's no nuance, it's just right there in your face.
> 
> Also, the argument that much of classical music sounds the same doesn't hold water with me. Sure, there are cadences but at least there are MELODIES on top of those cadences to add some musical interest.
> 
> And again, rock, country, whatever do use standard harmonic progressions. But that music is not really about the music, it's about the vocal line and the lyric.
> 
> If you take those styles and remove the lyric or the melodic lead, then yeah, it does sound much the same.
> 
> But that's basically trailer music, right?
> 
> +1
> 
> rgames


----------



## germancomponist

Yeah, some time ago I asked the same question. In this thread I think me and only one or two other people didn``t like the choirs.

Now, it seems that the time have changed, a lot more people don`t like the choirs now. So I think it is pretty ok to ask a same question from time to time. My neighbor is asking me the same question every day. He asks: "How are you?" And my answer is not always the same... . :mrgreen: 

@Alex: With no word I had criticized trailers generally.There are many well produced trailers and I like to listen to "good" produced and composed trailers! And, you can be sure that I understand this kind of industry, and how! o-[][]-o


----------



## Waywyn

rgames @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> I think another way to describe the issue with trailer music is along the lines of what Jay was saying - there's no subtlety.
> 
> It's kind of like musical porn: there's no nuance, it's just right there in your face.
> 
> Also, the argument that much of classical music sounds the same doesn't hold water with me. Sure, there are cadences but at least there are MELODIES on top of those cadences to add some musical interest.
> 
> And again, rock, country, whatever do use standard harmonic progressions. But that music is not really about the music, it's about the vocal line and the lyric.
> 
> If you take those styles and remove the lyric or the melodic lead, then yeah, it does sound much the same.
> 
> But that's basically trailer music, right?
> 
> rgames



You might laugh, but actually sometimes music without melody might fit better since it does not distract from the dialogue or sfx from the trailer! 
Also it is not just writing a track, it is also delivering stems, doing several mixes, clients might call and ask you for a non melody, non drums, rock only, orchestra only, whatever version.

You know, I will not compare trailer music with store/shopping mall music, but the initial idea is the same. If there would be vocals and awesome melodies, it would make the buyer leaving the store, since it is "overkill". So it is mellow jazz, mellow ethno oriented pop music ... this all is there for a reason - it serves a product!


----------



## gsilbers

Brian Ralston @ Tue Jul 26 said:


> What most people fail to understand about the movie industry in general is that everything about it (the filmmaking itself, the PR, the trailers, etc...)* is a very specific manufactured and industrialized process.
> *
> There are formulas that have proven successful and the nature of the profitability driven business thus dictates that it follow those proven models. This is everything from the format of a successful script...to the production of a film...to the casting of a film...to the marketing of that film and hence the creation of the trailers.
> 
> Anything that deviates from those models will usually fail to find significant investors...or fail to become mainstream in society and make money. If the one exception to that rule comes along and creates a new model...folks will not take notice or define it as "a new model" until it has gone against all odds and proven itself on its own.
> 
> As such...there is a lot of predictability and not a lot of uniqueness in the entertainment industry.




and STILL failing by the looks of the other posts on this thread.

:mrgreen:

maybe folks outside the hollywood rat race do not see that making it sound like trailer music is just another gig, paycheck and move on to the next one. 

just see the side for immediate music if you want to listen to the defacto trailer music. 
each cue is about $60.000 to $120.000

now.. for that price .. do you care if it sounds like other trailer music? 
fuk no. ill make 1000 demo just to get that gig!


----------



## Waywyn

germancomponist @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> There are many well produced trailers and I like to listen to "good" produced and composed trailers! And, you can be sure that I understand this kind of industry, and how! o-[][]-o



Yes, .. and this is only 10%??

Seriously Gunther, we can repeat that experiment over and over (as we did before).
I might refer you to the apple trailer site and check the first 10 trailers:

- Restless - beautiful guitar, flagiolett music
- The Harvest - mellow ethno poprock
- A Good Old Fashioned Orgy - shuffle rock
- Spy Kids - rock
- I Don't Know ... - Amy Winehouse
- Love Crime - industrial percussion

... Okay, we could continue this game and repeat it everyday. Even from the styles I have written not a single track sounds as the same as from another trailer.

Gunther, your statement about 90% sounds the same and is copied can't simply withhold and therefore proven wrong. Could it be that you are looking into an aquarium and say: "Hmm, the only animals I see are fish?!!


----------



## lux

eh...the only animals i see into an acquarium are fishes, and i'm not Gunther.


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## Waywyn

lux @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> eh...the only animals i see into an acquarium are fishes, and i'm not Gunther.



lux, I think you didn't get it. If you just watch action trailers, it is certainly that more trailer music sounds as the same and even two or more trailer might use the same track ... thats what I was trying to say. If you are looking into a wood you see only trees ... but if you should write an exploration work about how this world looks like, you can not write: Planet earth is full of trees ... you might have to turn around and check out other places, no?


----------



## lux

Alex I perfectly understand what you mean. Its just my fault that i'm currently unable to take this discussion too seriously  o


----------



## germancomponist

Waywyn @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> Gunther, your statement about 90% sounds the same and is copied can't simply withhold and therefore proven wrong. Could it be that you are looking into an aquarium and say: "Hmm, the only animals I see are fish?!!



Smile. When I look into an aquarium I can see many different fishes. o/~


----------



## Waywyn

*lol* Lux, I get it 

Okay, whatever you want to think, I felt like writing something about this constant general music discussion and why it is as it currently is: Check it here if you are interested:

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22253


----------



## Waywyn

germancomponist @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> Waywyn @ Wed Jul 27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gunther, your statement about 90% sounds the same and is copied can't simply withhold and therefore proven wrong. Could it be that you are looking into an aquarium and say: "Hmm, the only animals I see are fish?!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smile. When I look into an aquarium I can see many different fishes. o/~
Click to expand...


*sigh* Yes, but the only animals you are fish. It is not enought to look into an aquarium to write about ALL animals on this planet. You have to visit other places.

Or to explain it the most easiest way and as written once before, if you only check out action trailers, obviously most music sounds similar, but you cannot simply check action tracks ONLY and say that 90% sounds the same. Clear now?


----------



## Waywyn

PS: Gunther, why did you ignore my previous comment where I wanted you to do that test and check out the Apple trailer website? Does 90% sound the same to you?


----------



## germancomponist

Waywyn @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> Or to explain it the most easiest way and as written once before, if you only check out action trailers, obviously most music sounds similar, but you cannot simply check action tracks ONLY and say that 90% sounds the same. Clear now?



+1

This is for sure true and I never compare apples to oranges. I know the different between action and somewhat else. But isn`t it mostly the same in the other genres? 

I would like to listen to new, fresh music (ideas) in the trailer world. But sure, maybe only I?!


----------



## germancomponist

OK, will visit the Apple trailer website. 

Alex, don`t take my critism personally!!!


----------



## midphase

devastat @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> The best trailer music I have ever heard is the in the trailer of 'Battle of Los Angeles', tho I suspect that the song by Johann Johannson was composed as a song and not as trailer music, but who knows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9otTzrO9Bfw
> 
> P.S I don't agree with the statement that 90% of the trailer music sounds the same..



I agree with you that the trailer you point out is an awesome usage of a "different" approach that works extremely well.

I think when trailer houses think different, it can set their work apart and win them awards.

(another few cool examples from video games):

http://youtu.be/ccWrbGEFgI8

http://youtu.be/3Dc7zGkW7g8

http://youtu.be/TXeST0NMtic

P.S.

I don't agree with your P.S. I do think that the vast majority of trailer music follows the very same 3-4 stylistic directions and is essentially interchangeable. The example that you brought up, the ones I bring up, and the unique sounding tracks that have been mentioned from the other music houses are seldom used and represent a teeny tiny portion of trailers out there. As a matter of fact, I have seen plenty of the bombastic Battle:LA trailers and yet I had never seen the one you linked to before.


----------



## Waywyn

germancomponist @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> OK, will visit the Apple trailer website.
> 
> Alex, don`t take my critism personally!!!



Gunther, I don't take it personally at all. I just don't like when wrong facts are being spread ... facts which are not true .. and becoming repetitive ... without any proof.
I for one check out lots of trailer music, I visit trailer sites regularly and digest it as a morning paper. I am sure, there is a lot of crap out there (as with any other style of music too) and there are lots of lame copied tracks out there (but as with any other style of music too) ... but definitely not 90%! Definitely not almost every 9th of 10 tracks out there.


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## germancomponist

Smile ,so tis 90% were felt by myself.

How many % would you say? 50?


----------



## Waywyn

Gunther, I don't care how many percent and how many tracks out of 100.

Bad composing, bad taste and bad tracks happen in ALL kinds of music .. and even if YOU think it sounds the same, it doesn't mean it generally does. It is your intention and your feeling about this industry, obviously involved with a lot of selective cognition!

You obviously watched like 10 action trailers and a few tv ads, ... and suddenly FOR YOU, about 90% of all currently up and running trailer tracks sound as the same! Sorry!


----------



## germancomponist

So what do you think are the people thinking, who are not "trailer composers"?

I know many who say that it all sounds the same...... . Huh..... .

And, the trailers are not done for us composers, but for them...... .


----------



## devastat

I think this is a fascinating discussion, and my dream would be to do trailer music (among other things), no matter how conventional it is - or not.


----------



## Patrick_Gill

Me too ! 8)


----------



## devastat

Coming out of the closet. ~o)


----------



## Andrew Christie

Ashermusic @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> It will be this way until a bunch of demographic tests reveal to the guys who make this crap that the potential customer base says "I am tired of this stuff all sounding the same. What is with all the whoosh sounds all the time and this constant bombastic assault?"
> 
> It is by and large musical rape rather than seduction IMHO. But that apparently appeals to a generation whose primary cultural influences are MTV, graphic novels, super-hero movies and video games.
> 
> Yeah, I know, I am a cranky old fart



Super-heroes are awesome!! :D


----------



## MichaelL

MichaelJM @ Tue Jul 26 said:


> Trailer music has a structure to it. There are aspects of right and wrong when it comes to writing successful trailer music. )




Care to reveal the secret formula? I know that it was mentioned in a thread a long time ago.

Alex...do you do trailer tutorials?


Cheers,

Michael


----------



## Cruciform

MichaelL @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> Cheers, Michael



Popping out of lurking to say "Hi Michael!" :D 

Also to say I do trailer music and this thread is a great laugh. Thanks to Alex for his persistence. He was one of my early inspirations but I haven't kept up with his later work. Cheers Alex!


----------



## MichaelL

Cruciform @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> MichaelL @ Thu Jul 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers, Michael
Click to expand...


Popping out of lurking to say "Hi Michael!" :D 


Thanks Mate. Hope all is well down under.

I'm a fan of Alex's work, as well. 

Cheers,

Michael


----------



## Waywyn

MichaelL @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> MichaelJM @ Tue Jul 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Trailer music has a structure to it. There are aspects of right and wrong when it comes to writing successful trailer music. )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Care to reveal the secret formula? I know that it was mentioned in a thread a long time ago.
> 
> Alex...do you do trailer tutorials?
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Michael
Click to expand...


Michael, thanks!
I got a few tuts on my blog at http://blog.alexpfeffer.net
I hope this doesn't sound rude, but the secret formula is just damn hard work. Some of that music itself might be simple in its theoretic and harmonic structure, but to reach that sound it deserves some research and practice. I know many people who try to do trailer music because they hear all the stories about the big money, hear the tracks and instantly go something like: Cool, lets make some huge fat ass $$$ with a few stupid chords and lines  ... and they desperately fail because they underestimated what it takes to create a huge wall of choirs or percussions or a horn line. Hell, most of you might move back in the chair that some trailer tracks got more than just 6 or 8 or 10 horns  (Woooooot, orchestra blasphemy, that is not realistic )

SO in the end it comes down to learning, trial &error, first success, fall down, stand up, trial & error, further research, etc. ... sounds familiar? Basically as with any other thing in life ...


----------



## midphase

devastat @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> I think this is a fascinating discussion, and my dream would be to do trailer music (among other things), no matter how conventional it is - or not.



Trust me, it ain't all that it's cracked up to be...and the license fees (like everything else) have been dropping significantly in the past few years.


----------



## vlado hudec

Waywyn @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> I know many people who try to do trailer music because they hear all the stories about the big money, hear the tracks and instantly go something like: Cool, lets make some huge fat ass $$$ with a few stupid chords and lines  ... and they desperately fail because they underestimated what it takes to create a huge wall of choirs or percussions or a horn line. Hell, most of you might move back in the chair that some trailer tracks got more than just 6 or 8 or 10 horns  (Woooooot, orchestra blasphemy, that is not realistic )



I totally agree here Alex !

When I score some drama I put one deep drone, some piano improvisation and I have 3min track which takes me 10-20 min.

But when those composers try to write trailer music, they usually fail, because, trailer music is much more sofisticated, you can laugh guys, it is true 

When you have big orchestra a lot of brass, tons of perc + drum kit + guitars + huge choir, it is very hard to put it together and it takes a days to finish one 2min track, not hours.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

The only trailers I like are the ones that are different, both in terms of editing and music. Clearly, I am often disappointed... the last one I remember is the one for Little Children. It didn't even have music, just the sound of a train. But it was very fresh and memorable, unlike a lot of the bombastic stuff that has no impact after the fourth seriously-big-hit-or-at-least-bigger-than-the-last-one.


----------



## Ztarr

Waywyn @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> When you have big orchestra a lot of brass, tons of perc + drum kit + guitars + huge choir, it is very hard to put it together and *it takes a days to finish one 2min track, not hours.*


Very true!


----------



## Ashermusic

vlado hudec @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> When I score some drama I put one deep drone, some piano improvisation and I have 3min track which takes me 10-20 min.



Then you are composing one lousy drama score! I have never done a single 3 min. cue in my whole career that way and close to in that amount of time. That kind of disrespect for the craft frankly makes me angry.

Writing music for films and TV is a craft. So is writing trailer music. The problem with trailer music is not the composers, it is what they are being asked to compose.


----------



## vlado hudec

Ashermusic @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> vlado hudec @ Thu Jul 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I score some drama I put one deep drone, some piano improvisation and I have 3min track which takes me 10-20 min.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you are composing one lousy drama score! I have never done a single 3 min. cue in my whole career that way and close to in that amount of time. That kind of disrespect for the craft frankly makes me angry.
> 
> Writing music for films and TV is a craft. So is writing trailer music. The problem with trailer music is not the composers, it is what they are being asked to compose.
Click to expand...


Ok, you are right, not all drama scores is drone + piano, I respect all composers, film scoring is definitely a craft, if we take for instance JW type of scores, but trailer music is in the same level


----------



## JohnG

Waywyn @ 27th July 2011 said:


> the secret formula is just damn hard work. Some of that music itself might be simple in its theoretic and harmonic structure, but to reach that sound it deserves some research and practice.



I agree with this.

With lots of blues music out there, why do people like, say, BB King, or Muddy Waters, or Taj Mahal? Because they produce something special in a sea of "good, not great." 

How many baroque concerti are there? How many tone poems and symphonic portraits?

How come rockers _all_ play "real loud?"

Why are so many video games first-person shooters?

It's a lot harder to write compelling trailer / film / TV / blues / pop music than at first it may appear, even if it does sound formulaic. As a teenager, I thought pop music was so simple I could get bombed and write hit tunes in 10 minutes. But found it a bit harder than that.

One can't ignore strong similarities in bits of many trailer pieces, particularly music used to advertise action movies. On the other hand, since everyone can hear those similar bits, how come every composer can't make equally compelling / intense action trailer music?

One reason trailer music can sound generally alike is because the trailer houses demand that type of thing, since the studios, who pay the trailer houses, have what they deem compelling evidence about effective movie advertising. Response to in-theatre advertising is heavily, heavily researched by studios. Their conclusion has been that trailers -- shown in the theatre, not on television or internet -- is the single biggest driver of attendance in theatres. 

As we know, box office success generates success all down the distribution chain -- Pay per View, cable, DVDs, and free TV broadcast, so with the money tree dependent on the buzz of a big theatrical opening, they want what their research tells them "works."


----------



## guitarman1960

gsilbers @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> maybe folks outside the hollywood rat race do not see that making it sound like trailer music is just another gig, paycheck and move on to the next one.
> 
> just see the side for immediate music if you want to listen to the defacto trailer music.
> each cue is about $60.000 to $120.000
> 
> now.. for that price .. do you care if it sounds like other trailer music?
> fuk no. ill make 1000 demo just to get that gig!



Just recently joined the forum, and loving it! Been searching for threads about Trailer Music.

Are those figures correct? $60,000 to $120,000 a cue is what Immediate Music charge?!!!!!

Wow, no wonder everyone wants to do trailers! Jeez! Wonder what percentage gets passed on to the composer?

Also gets me wondering what Two Steps charge as they seem to be at the top of the trailer game???


----------



## George Caplan

im with gunther on this. ive seen trailers since the fifties and they were then and are now a shitty noise. thats what they are designed for. to be a noise to get your attention so you can go and hear more shitty noise that lasts a lot longer. it all about sales and why they use trailer music and not beethoven.


----------



## Lex

guitarman1960 @ Wed Mar 13 said:


> gsilbers @ Wed Jul 27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> maybe folks outside the hollywood rat race do not see that making it sound like trailer music is just another gig, paycheck and move on to the next one.
> 
> just see the side for immediate music if you want to listen to the defacto trailer music.
> each cue is about $60.000 to $120.000
> 
> now.. for that price .. do you care if it sounds like other trailer music?
> fuk no. ill make 1000 demo just to get that gig!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just recently joined the forum, and loving it! Been searching for threads about Trailer Music.
> 
> Are those figures correct? $60,000 to $120,000 a cue is what Immediate Music charge?!!!!!
> 
> Wow, no wonder everyone wants to do trailers! Jeez! Wonder what percentage gets passed on to the composer?
> 
> Also gets me wondering what Two Steps charge as they seem to be at the top of the trailer game???
Click to expand...


those figures are ridiculous, and simply not correct.... 

alex


----------



## Ed

guitarman1960 @ Wed Mar 13 said:


> Are those figures correct? $60,000 to $120,000 a cue is what Immediate Music charge?!!!!!



lol, thats crazy and definitely not today! Not sure where gsilbers got those figures


----------



## rJames

Ashermusic @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> vlado hudec @ Thu Jul 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I score some drama I put one deep drone, some piano improvisation and I have 3min track which takes me 10-20 min.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you are composing one lousy drama score! I have never done a single 3 min. cue in my whole career that way and close to in that amount of time. That kind of disrespect for the craft frankly makes me angry.
> 
> Writing music for films and TV is a craft. So is writing trailer music. The problem with trailer music is not the composers, it is what they are being asked to compose.
Click to expand...


...ever see "Law and Order?"


----------



## guitarman1960

Ed @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Wed Mar 13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are those figures correct? $60,000 to $120,000 a cue is what Immediate Music charge?!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol, thats crazy and definitely not today! Not sure where gsilbers got those figures
Click to expand...


LOL, thought that couldn't be right!
Maybe he added too many zeros, and it was actually $6,000 to $12,000 LOL


----------



## rJames

devastat @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> The best trailer music I have ever heard is the in the trailer of 'Battle of Los Angeles', tho I suspect that the song by Johann Johannson was composed as a song and not as trailer music, but who knows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9otTzrO9Bfw
> 
> P.S I don't agree with the statement that 90% of the trailer music sounds the same..


Didn't like that one at all. For me, it might have worked if they got rid of the vocoder voice on top.

BTW Pop tunes or well known tunes are where you might see the license fee up at $60K. If you want a Rolling Stones cue for your trailer, you might be willing to pay $120K for all the "good will," (memories/good baggage) that it brings to your advertisement.

To Gunther... the reason why all "trailer music," posted by composers on this forum sounds 90% the same or whatever is that Action and Epic are the most common genres that draw upon music from unknown artists. Plus we have a lot of orchestral guys here. And, this being a forum where composers help composers, you are bound to get a lot of people just starting out. In that case, what is gleaned by listening to "trailer music," is some sort of generalization that misses the mark.

I was once in a studio with one of the greats in this business (not Lex but someone of the same stature) and I said, "shhh... don't tell anyone about this business," and he responded, "not everyone can do it." Moral of the story... its not easy.


----------



## rpaillot

guitarman1960 @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> Ed @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> guitarman1960 @ Wed Mar 13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are those figures correct? $60,000 to $120,000 a cue is what Immediate Music charge?!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol, thats crazy and definitely not today! Not sure where gsilbers got those figures
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL, thought that couldn't be right!
> Maybe he added too many zeros, and it was actually $6,000 to $12,000 LOL
Click to expand...



And it's probably going to drop in the next years... with the competition
coming from hungry composers.

Trailer market was a niche but it seems to be more and more crowded.
You just have to read "trailer music news" facebook page to see how much new companies, composers, willing to lower theirs fees, are coming into this business.

I'm actually surprised of how many blockbusters trailers I hear with "averagely" ( if that word exists) produced music : sampled choirs, symphobia full orchestra FX used all over the title, cheap strings staccato... over-compressed mix. 

Fortunately there are guys like Immediate Music, Two steps from hell and Audiomachine who are still doing a great job in producing their album. ( and they have more budget , true  )


----------



## Dean

Lex @ Wed Mar 13 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Wed Mar 13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gsilbers @ Wed Jul 27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> each cue is about $60.000 to $120.000
> 
> 
> 
> 
> those figures are ridiculous, and simply not correct....
> 
> alex
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Hi Alex,
those figures are'nt ridiculous but that depends on the trailer project of course. 

I think Waywyn,John G and others are correct,I recently started working on bespoke trailers (not library)and I've never worked so hard in all my life.To compose a trailer properly with an emotive theme/tone/sound to an exacting formula takes blood,sweat and tears.
Actually I dont mind it at all when other composers dismiss or generalise trailer music,..that just means that they dont get it and we do(more work for us  D


----------



## Lex

Dean @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> Lex @ Wed Mar 13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> guitarman1960 @ Wed Mar 13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gsilbers @ Wed Jul 27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> each cue is about $60.000 to $120.000
> 
> 
> 
> 
> those figures are ridiculous, and simply not correct....
> 
> alex
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hi Alex,
> those figures are'nt ridiculous but that depends on the trailer project of course.
> 
> I think Waywyn,John G and others are correct,I recently started working on bespoke trailers (not library)and I've never worked so hard in all my life.To compose a trailer properly with an emotive theme/tone/sound to an exacting formula takes blood,sweat and tears.
> Actually I dont mind it at all when other composers dismiss or generalise trailer music,..that just means that they dont get it and we do(more work for us  D
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


For a single non exclusive trailer license, yeah they are....or please point me in the right direction in pm. 

Commercial music will see these kind of figures for a trailer placement. And probably this is what you get for actually scoring a trailer, in which case license is exclusive, not sure, never worked like this myself.

alex


----------



## Ed

Dean, $60,000 for a custom trailer isnt so ridiculous if I compare it to bigger budget custom advert music where there is similar money.

However gsilbers said that for companies like Immediate Music "_each cue is about $60.000 to $120.000_" which *is *ridiculous, assuming he meant 60k and 120k. I think you maybe misunderstand Lex though, when we say its ridiculous we are saying it doesnt actually pay as well as this, not taking a shot at trailer music.


----------



## Stephen Baysted

Ed @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> Dean, $60,000 for a custom trailer isnt so ridiculous if I compare it to bigger budget custom advert music where there is similar money.
> 
> However gsilbers said that for companies like Immediate Music "_each cue is about $60.000 to $120.000_" which *is *ridiculous, assuming he meant 60k and 120k. I think you maybe misunderstand Lex though, when we say its ridiculous we are saying it doesnt actually pay as well as this, not taking a shot at trailer music.




Quit while you're still ahead Ed.


----------



## Dean

Ed @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> Dean, $60,000 for a custom trailer isnt so ridiculous if I compare it to bigger budget custom advert music where there is similar money.
> 
> However gsilbers said that for companies like Immediate Music "_each cue is about $60.000 to $120.000_" which *is *ridiculous, assuming he meant 60k and 120k. I think you maybe misunderstand Lex though, when we say its ridiculous we are saying it doesnt actually pay as well as this, not taking a shot at trailer music.



think you need to read my post again Ed. :wink: 
I knew what Lex meant,there was no shot intended. D


----------



## Ed

Stephen Baysted @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> Quit while you're still ahead Ed.



huh?


----------



## Stephen Baysted

Ed @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> Stephen Baysted @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quit while you're still ahead Ed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> huh?
Click to expand...



You were commenting on this subject as if you knew all about music supervision and licensing and associated costs. I thought, as a friendly gesture to a fellow countryman, I'd proffer a helping hand - I simply wanted to make sure that you didn't continue digging holes that you wouldn't be able to argue yourself out of later on. 

However, if you wish to continue digging, then by all means be my guest. o[])


----------



## lux

rJames @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> devastat @ Wed Jul 27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The best trailer music I have ever heard is the in the trailer of 'Battle of Los Angeles', tho I suspect that the song by Johann Johannson was composed as a song and not as trailer music, but who knows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9otTzrO9Bfw
> 
> P.S I don't agree with the statement that 90% of the trailer music sounds the same..
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't like that one at all. For me, it might have worked if they got rid of the vocoder voice on top.
Click to expand...


must say that i have exactly the opposite feeling with that trailer. I found it just great. The vocoded voice was a touch of class.

Personally in the "non typically scored" category i also loved the Watchmen trailer with "Take a bow" by the Muse.


----------



## germancomponist

Oh, my old thread about, for example..., bad parodies of Hans Zimmers music and ideas in trailer "music compositions"..., is back. ..


----------



## lux

rJames @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> I was once in a studio with one of the greats in this business (not Lex but someone of the same stature) and I said, "shhh... don't tell anyone about this business," and he responded, "not everyone can do it." Moral of the story... its not easy.



Yes, i think its time to clarify on this issue. Its not easy at all. There are a few styles in the trailers realm that you can get close but never find the key to a successful cue. 

Its a matter of real hard work and specific study on sound shaping and musical structure and storytelling.


----------



## germancomponist

lux @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> Yes, i think its time to clarify on this issue. Its not easy at all. There are a few styles in the trailers realm that you can get close but never find the key to a successful cue.
> 
> Its a matter of real hard work and specific study on sound shaping and musical structure and storytelling.



Oh, it is harder to do trailer music than to do a score for other things...?


----------



## rJames

Stephen Baysted @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> Ed @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stephen Baysted @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quit while you're still ahead Ed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You were commenting on this subject as if you knew all about music supervision and licensing and associated costs. I thought, as a friendly gesture to a fellow countryman, I'd proffer a helping hand - I simply wanted to make sure that you didn't continue digging holes that you wouldn't be able to argue yourself out of later on.
> 
> However, if you wish to continue digging, then by all means be my guest. o[])
Click to expand...


It seems like you're just poking fun at Ed.

Better to enlighten us all don't you think? Clarification would be a much more useful helping hand. After all this forum is for composers helping composers.


----------



## Lex

germancomponist @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> Oh, my old thread about, for example..., bad parodies of Hans Zimmers music and ideas in trailer "music compositions"..., is back. ..



Can pretty please with fukin sugar on top take the "nasty" down a bit, 'cause it's becoming difficult to ignore you and not bite back. 

And your thread actually started to become interesting again, until you showed up.

alex


----------



## R.Cato

germancomponist @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> lux @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, i think its time to clarify on this issue. Its not easy at all. There are a few styles in the trailers realm that you can get close but never find the key to a successful cue.
> 
> Its a matter of real hard work and specific study on sound shaping and musical structure and storytelling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, it is harder to do trailer music than to do a score for other things...?
Click to expand...



Neither of them is easy. And to be honest it's harder to produce (not only write) a solid trailer track than a score. At least for me. It's not the notes it's the whole production which is much more difficult. 
Others may disagree but that's the experience I've made so far.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

R.Cato @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> germancomponist @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lux @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, i think its time to clarify on this issue. Its not easy at all. There are a few styles in the trailers realm that you can get close but never find the key to a successful cue.
> 
> Its a matter of real hard work and specific study on sound shaping and musical structure and storytelling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, it is harder to do trailer music than to do a score for other things...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of them is easy. And to be honest it's harder to produce (not only write) a solid trailer track than a score. At least for me. It's not the notes it's the whole production which is much more difficult.
> Others may disagree but that's the experience I've made so far.
Click to expand...


Can you point me to an example of each you feel you have done well? Just curious.


----------



## lux

germancomponist @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> lux @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, i think its time to clarify on this issue. Its not easy at all. There are a few styles in the trailers realm that you can get close but never find the key to a successful cue.
> 
> Its a matter of real hard work and specific study on sound shaping and musical structure and storytelling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, it is harder to do trailer music than to do a score for other things...?
Click to expand...


I'd say Gunther that "to do trailer music" is not an activity per se. 

You do trailer music if you do music which actually gets used in a trailer. Otherwise youre "attempting at doing trailer music". 

In the first case, yes it can be really difficult as much as different forms of scoring. Sometimes even harder. Sometimes less. Its a case by case story, as it always is.

Its also related to your own sensitivity and artistic qualities. Speaking personally I'm more inclined naturally to express feelings like tenderness, melancholy, marvel, joy, fun. So when it comes to express "badassness" it gets harder for me and I put more time and effort in it. I know a few guys which have the exact opposite attitude.

So, its always related to how much youre artistically close to a certain style, and what your professional goals are. Assumed that in trailersland actually a lot of well shaped competitors play the game, I'd say that creating trailer music (again, music which gets used) its quite an hard task to accomplish.


----------



## germancomponist

Lux, 

before I will answer to this/yours post I will ask you a question: What's about trailer (music) libraries? How do their composers work? So hard?


----------



## germancomponist

Lex @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> germancomponist @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, my old thread about, for example..., bad parodies of Hans Zimmers music and ideas in trailer "music compositions"..., is back. ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can pretty please with fukin sugar on top take the "nasty" down a bit, 'cause it's becoming difficult to ignore you and not bite back.
> 
> And your thread actually started to become interesting again, until you showed up.
> 
> alex
Click to expand...


Huh..... 

Do you know the concept of irony?


----------



## rJames

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> R.Cato @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of them is easy. And to be honest it's harder to produce (not only write) a solid trailer track than a score. At least for me. It's not the notes it's the whole production which is much more difficult.
> Others may disagree but that's the experience I've made so far.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you point me to an example of each you feel you have done well? Just curious.
Click to expand...


I can't fully clarify this point since I don't score to picture. But, here are some differences.

1.) No picture to score to. You have no idea what movie will come out that might need music like you are writing.

2.) You are competing with live score for the most part. So the production values have to be impeccable.

3.) If you score too freely, make a change in tempo, accents, harmony that doesn't work, the editor may just move on without trying to edit it to make it work.

4.) If you score too straight forward, there may not be anything interesting enough to motivate the editor.

5.) If you vary too far away from cloning the previous "latest style", you may not fit the scope of, "do you have anything like...." (generalization)

6.) If you use the available tools too obviously (i.e. Damage, Omni etc) they can just cut you out of the deal and rescore your cue. (the big studios have capable in-house composers/sound designers)

7.) I could go on but I should get back to work.

I'm no expert, these are just my personal observations and suppositions.


----------



## R.Cato

rJames @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> R.Cato @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of them is easy. And to be honest it's harder to produce (not only write) a solid trailer track than a score. At least for me. It's not the notes it's the whole production which is much more difficult.
> Others may disagree but that's the experience I've made so far.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you point me to an example of each you feel you have done well? Just curious.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can't fully clarify this point since I don't score to picture. But, here are some differences.
> 
> 1.) No picture to score to. You have no idea what movie will come out that might need music like you are writing.
> 
> 2.) You are competing with live score for the most part. So the production values have to be impeccable.
> 
> 3.) If you score too freely, make a change in tempo, accents, harmony that doesn't work, the editor may just move on without trying to edit it to make it work.
> 
> 4.) If you score too straight forward, there may not be anything interesting enough to motivate the editor.
> 
> 5.) If you vary too far away from cloning the previous "latest style", you may not fit the scope of, "do you have anything like...." (generalization)
> 
> 6.) If you use the available tools too obviously (i.e. Damage, Omni etc) they can just cut you out of the deal and rescore your cue. (the big studios have capable in-house composers/sound designers)
> 
> 7.) I could go on but I should get back to work.
> 
> I'm no expert, these are just my personal observations and suppositions.
Click to expand...


As I said. To *me* it is....

These are some relevant arguments, thanks for pointing them out.

I should have said that when I was speaking about scoring, I had videogame scores in mind and not filmscores. Only filmscores I have written so far were for documentaries and that's again a different story.


@Jay: PMd you. I don't want to spam the discussion with bad music. :D


----------



## germancomponist

rJames @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> I'm no expert, these are just my personal observations and suppositions.



In our discussion there is more needed than personal observations and supposition..... .

But ok, I will leave you alone. Do again your personal observations and suppositions. Have fun with this! o/~ :mrgreen:


----------



## mark812

devastat @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> The best trailer music I have ever heard is the in the trailer of 'Battle of Los Angeles', tho I suspect that the song by Johann Johannson was composed as a song and not as trailer music, but who knows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9otTzrO9Bfw



Fantastic piece, not so fantastic film. 

I liked this one (the first 50 sec.):


----------



## guitarman1960

The juxtaposition of the crazy battle scenes with the very very slow ambient music seems quite an interesting trend, seen it used a lot with very violent videogame trailers on TV here in UK using slo-motion trippy music. It definately creates quite a nice spooky vibe. Bit of a one trick wonder tho as a technique, will probably get over-used really fast.
Makes a nice change from the frantic hybrid orchestras, reverse hits, detuned heavy guitars and choir samples though I must say!


----------



## rJames

Ave Maria over Hitman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJhNzHyq-IE


----------



## rJames

germancomponist @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> rJames @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm no expert, these are just my personal observations and suppositions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In our discussion there is more needed than personal observations and supposition..... .
> 
> But ok, I will leave you alone. Do again your personal observations and suppositions. Have fun with this! o/~ :mrgreen:
Click to expand...


Are you serious?

I guess I didn't read my agreement about posting in this thread. Aha, right here.... no opinions.

Sorry, my bad.

PS Gunther, to you get the concept of sarcasm?


----------



## germancomponist

rJames @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> germancomponist @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rJames @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm no expert, these are just my personal observations and suppositions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In our discussion there is more needed than personal observations and supposition..... .
> 
> But ok, I will leave you alone. Do again your personal observations and suppositions. Have fun with this! o/~ :mrgreen:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you serious?
> 
> I guess I didn't read my agreement about posting in this thread. Aha, right here.... no opinions.
> 
> Sorry, my bad.
> 
> PS Gunther, to you get the concept of sarcasm?
Click to expand...


He he, where's your sense of humor? I call it irony!  o-[][]-o


----------



## Lex

germancomponist @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> Lex @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> germancomponist @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, my old thread about, for example..., bad parodies of Hans Zimmers music and ideas in trailer "music compositions"..., is back. ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can pretty please with fukin sugar on top take the "nasty" down a bit, 'cause it's becoming difficult to ignore you and not bite back.
> 
> And your thread actually started to become interesting again, until you showed up.
> 
> alex
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Huh.....
> 
> Do you know the concept of irony?
Click to expand...


Yes I do. Do you? There's nothing ironic in your comments (except for the fact that you are mocking something you can't do yourself).

alex


----------



## Ed

germancomponist @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> He he, where's your sense of humor? I call it irony!  o-[][]-o



Gunther I dont think you know what irony is. I'd suggest sarcasm be a better description, except that I think you really are serious.


----------



## Ed

Stephen Baysted @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> You were commenting on this subject as if you knew all about music supervision and licensing and associated costs. I thought, as a friendly gesture to a fellow countryman, I'd proffer a helping hand - I simply wanted to make sure that you didn't continue digging holes that you wouldn't be able to argue yourself out of later on.
> 
> However, if you wish to continue digging, then by all means be my guest. o[])



Um, well since I work in trailer music and I've worked with ads and still have a good relationship with the owner of one the major ad music companies in the UK, I do have some idea what Im talking about, but thanks for the assumption mate.

I dont mind looking foolish if you think me or ALex is wrong. Because if I am wrong I've been screwed out of a lot of money, you see. Since you keep implying Im "digging a hole" do feel free to push me in it. Do you really think companies like Immediate licence their tracks for $60,000-$120,000? lol?


----------



## Dean

C,mon guys,cut the crap you're screwing up the topic.

Hey mods,..time to shut this puppy down? D


----------



## Lex

rJames @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> R.Cato @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of them is easy. And to be honest it's harder to produce (not only write) a solid trailer track than a score. At least for me. It's not the notes it's the whole production which is much more difficult.
> Others may disagree but that's the experience I've made so far.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you point me to an example of each you feel you have done well? Just curious.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can't fully clarify this point since I don't score to picture. But, here are some differences.
> 
> 1.) No picture to score to. You have no idea what movie will come out that might need music like you are writing.
> 
> 2.) You are competing with live score for the most part. So the production values have to be impeccable.
> 
> 3.) If you score too freely, make a change in tempo, accents, harmony that doesn't work, the editor may just move on without trying to edit it to make it work.
> 
> 4.) If you score too straight forward, there may not be anything interesting enough to motivate the editor.
> 
> 5.) If you vary too far away from cloning the previous "latest style", you may not fit the scope of, "do you have anything like...." (generalization)
> 
> 6.) If you use the available tools too obviously (i.e. Damage, Omni etc) they can just cut you out of the deal and rescore your cue. (the big studios have capable in-house composers/sound designers)
> 
> 7.) I could go on but I should get back to work.
> 
> I'm no expert, these are just my personal observations and suppositions.
Click to expand...


This is very much dead on...great stuff James.

alex


----------



## danielcartisano

"Whatever works"

- Woody Allen


Seriously, *whatever fucking works.*


If the job arises, client asks for low brass stabs, spiccato strings and big percussion, then thats what I'll do.
If we work in that business, all we CAN do is try our best to be _unique_ while working with the clients criteria.

If in a year or so from now, the big hype in trailer music is mallets and double bass hits in 9/8 and cues lasting only 30 seconds, don't cry about it and start bashing people who follow the trend. As a composer, don't fear the change, embrace and adapt and do our best within the clients criteria.

In another world the clients have a push for "originality" and fresh techniques to sell the same product, but in this world clients follow the agenda and it's mostly static due to proven results.


There is really nothing else to it.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

danielcartisano @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> "Whatever works"
> 
> - Woody Allen
> 
> 
> Seriously, *whatever fucking works.*
> 
> 
> If the job arises, client asks for low brass stabs, spiccato strings and big percussion, then thats what I'll do.
> If we work in that business, all we CAN do is try our best to be _unique_ while working with the clients criteria.
> 
> If in a year or so from now, the big hype in trailer music is mallets and double bass hits in 9/8 and cues lasting only 30 seconds, don't cry about it and start bashing people who follow the trend. As a composer, don't fear the change, embrace and adapt and do our best within the clients criteria.
> 
> In another world the clients have a push for "originality" and fresh techniques to sell the same product, but in this world clients follow the agenda and it's mostly static due to proven results.
> 
> 
> There is really nothing else to it.



Interesting that you quote a guy who has never followed trends but blazed his own way to support an argument for doing just the opposite.

Just an observation


----------



## danielcartisano

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> danielcartisano @ Thu Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Whatever works"
> 
> - Woody Allen
> 
> 
> Seriously, *whatever fucking works.*
> 
> 
> If the job arises, client asks for low brass stabs, spiccato strings and big percussion, then thats what I'll do.
> If we work in that business, all we CAN do is try our best to be _unique_ while working with the clients criteria.
> 
> If in a year or so from now, the big hype in trailer music is mallets and double bass hits in 9/8 and cues lasting only 30 seconds, don't cry about it and start bashing people who follow the trend. As a composer, don't fear the change, embrace and adapt and do our best within the clients criteria.
> 
> In another world the clients have a push for "originality" and fresh techniques to sell the same product, but in this world clients follow the agenda and it's mostly static due to proven results.
> 
> 
> There is really nothing else to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting that you quote a guy who has never followed trends but blazed his own way to support an argument for doing just the opposite.
> 
> Just an observation
Click to expand...



Hahaha brilliant. o-[][]-o


----------



## George Caplan

danielcartisano @ Thu Mar 14 said:


> but in this world clients follow the agenda and it's mostly static due to proven results.
> 
> 
> There is really nothing else to it.



can i point you to the dumbing down thread elsewhere on this forum? :lol: :lol:


----------



## Guy Bacos

> Why do 90% of the trailer music sound the same? Is it a hype to copy each other there?



Do you mean there's more than one trailer track written?


----------



## Stiltzkin

Is it me or does there seem to be a lot of negativity around recently?

I don't know how you guys can stay inspired while reading through all this, I stopped reading this thread yesterday because it was just so depressing to think that this is how people can view music - any music, regardless of the genre, is beautiful. It might not be beautiful to you personally, but still...

I just find it really sucks the joy out of music, or rather it makes me feel there is less reason to compose, reading these types of threads recently... Not sure if I'm alone on that thought :/


----------



## Guy Bacos

Most of the time, it's the business side of the industry that literally dictates what music we should be writing, if sometimes we can't be critical about this, even though we know it won't change anything, than we might as well be robots.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

If you are not a layperson but someone who loves the craft of creating music, you will always view it through several lenses:

1. Do I personally like it?
2. Whether I like it or not, do I recognize it as well executed?
3. Is it part of a trend that Ithink is leading to an improvement of the overall quality or lessening it?

They are all worthy of discussion but doing so here has historically been largely a waste of time IMHO because the percentage of people who even potentially would change their views is pretty small.


----------



## Lex

You know, to be honest I started doing trailers because one day I caught myself watching a trailer and thinking "... surely this can be done better or at least different", so I gave it a shot and it worked for me. And I'm sure, or at least I hope that someone is listening to my trailers today and thinks "...surely I can do better then that..".

Not liking and criticizing is not the same as mocking. If you think it's easy, why not give it a shot? If you notice that most material sounds the same, why not do something new your self? I mean, we are talking about 90 sec of music, how hard can it be? 

I don't understand why is it that talking about trailer music gives you a free pass to be disrespectful? Trailer music is a very easy target, sure, I get it. But then again, Gunther, Guy, Jay, do you have any idea what easy targets you guys are? Does your behavior here gives green light to everyone else to talk publicly about your work as a joke?
 
alex


----------



## EastWest Lurker

I don't believe I wrote anything disrespectful to the craft of creating trailer music, only that I see too many trailers that seem to be all whooshes and big hits. I myself scored a trailer that does not sound like that.

But anyway, if someone visits my website and listens to my music and then writes, "Why are you commenting? I listened to your music and it sucks" then I would simply say, "You are of course entitled to your opinion".


----------



## Guy Bacos

Lex, as for me, I'm not saying there isn't a certain art to making trailers, but I'm not the only one who believes trailers became a recipe, with very cliché ingredients. That doesn't mean I'm able to do it, just an observation. And BTW, I do get my share of people who don't dig what I do, some even hate it. So what!


----------



## Dean

I thought this was the forum where composers help each other?..whats wrong with you guys? D


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Dean @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> I thought this was the forum where composers help each other?..whats wrong with you guys? D



I have not criticized any member of this forums music. As a matter of personal policy, I never do. I have only criticized a similarity (and banality IMHO) I hear in trailers that I sit through when watching previews on DVDs or in theaters. 

So I trust you do not mean to include me in "you guys".


----------



## danielcartisano

Dean @ Sat Mar 16 said:


> I thought this was the forum where composers help each other?..whats wrong with you guys? D




I still think there is plenty of composers helping composers here.

Definitely more negativity then when I first joined though... (which wasn't that long ago)



BRAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMMM *monster brass patch*


----------



## Stiltzkin

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> Dean @ Fri Mar 15 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought this was the forum where composers help each other?..whats wrong with you guys? D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have not criticized any member of this forums music. As a matter of personal policy, I never do. I have only criticized a similarity (and banality IMHO) I hear in trailers that I sit through when watching previews on DVDs or in theaters.
> 
> So I trust you do not mean to include me in "you guys".
Click to expand...


But as media composers, shouldn't our outlook instead be;

"How can we perfect this even further"?

I mean the music totally fits, it's engaging, it grabs your attention and it connects with people on an emotional level to help create an emotional attachment to the film.


----------



## Stiltzkin

danielcartisano @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> Dean @ Sat Mar 16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought this was the forum where composers help each other?..whats wrong with you guys? D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I still think there is plenty of composers helping composers here.
> 
> Definitely more negativity then when I first joined though... (which wasn't that long ago)
> 
> 
> 
> *BRAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMMM *monster brass patch**
Click to expand...


http://inception.davepedu.com/


----------



## danielcartisano

Stiltzkin @ Sat Mar 16 said:


> danielcartisano @ Fri Mar 15 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dean @ Sat Mar 16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought this was the forum where composers help each other?..whats wrong with you guys? D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I still think there is plenty of composers helping composers here.
> 
> Definitely more negativity then when I first joined though... (which wasn't that long ago)
> 
> 
> 
> *BRAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMMM *monster brass patch**
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> http://inception.davepedu.com/
Click to expand...



Haha yes!

That just made my night... or morning... I don't know, its 4:23am here.
I'm drunk and the first thing I do is check Vi-Control before bed.

Sad man.


o=?


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Stiltzkin @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Mar 15 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dean @ Fri Mar 15 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought this was the forum where composers help each other?..whats wrong with you guys? D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have not criticized any member of this forums music. As a matter of personal policy, I never do. I have only criticized a similarity (and banality IMHO) I hear in trailers that I sit through when watching previews on DVDs or in theaters.
> 
> So I trust you do not mean to include me in "you guys".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But as media composers, shouldn't our outlook instead be;
> 
> "How can we perfect this even further"?
> 
> I mean the music totally fits, it's engaging, it grabs your attention and it connects with people on an emotional level to help create an emotional attachment to the film.
Click to expand...


It may "fit" but I do not experience it as "engaging" but off-putting; it does not "grab my attention", it makes me want to turn it off; if anything, it distances me from the film.

But I fully concede that as a composer, I am not a typical viewer and so my reaction is colored by that. My wife however feels the same way, but as we have been married for 36 years, I may have conditioned her to view this through my lens.


----------



## Guy Bacos

It was just an opinion, but ok, I'll take back what I said.


----------



## danielcartisano

Guy Bacos @ Sat Mar 16 said:


> It was just an opinion, but ok, I'll take back what I said.




Never take back an opinion!


(By the way, absolutely love your work Guy. Such impressive "demos" on your website. Love the piano pieces especially!)


----------



## Lex

I don't mind at all if you think trailer music sucks, considering that I watch pretty much every trailer released for the last 7 years, I know better then most how much of really bad music is in this field.

It's the snickering, mocking undertone of certain posts that irritates me, considering that this not the tone you take when you talk about movie scores you don't like, or heaven forbid some of the half assed music that gets posted here by the forum users.

Things like "..so called trailer composers", or "..Do you mean there's more than one trailer track written?" are just mean...and I'm personally cool with that...but then don't come back in the future talking about respect and civility on this board if someone starts saying shhit like "...this attempt of composing" or call other members "..so called composers" on the members composition threads...

Am I really the only one here that has this point of view?

alex


----------



## Guy Bacos

danielcartisano @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Sat Mar 16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It was just an opinion, but ok, I'll take back what I said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (By the way, absolutely love your work Guy. Such impressive "demos" on your website. Love the piano pieces especially!)
Click to expand...


Ah, so you're the one. Thanks!  


Alex, I admit it was uncalled for, it was more a way of saying that some ingredients have become way too cliché and tiresome in trailers, epic choirs for examples. I'm not sure why you would dispute that. I personally do get the feeling I'm seeing the same trailer often from one movie to the next. A side from my bad joke, I'm not sure how I should express this.


----------



## Lex

Guy Bacos @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> danielcartisano @ Fri Mar 15 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guy Bacos @ Sat Mar 16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It was just an opinion, but ok, I'll take back what I said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (By the way, absolutely love your work Guy. Such impressive "demos" on your website. Love the piano pieces especially!)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah, so you're the one. Thanks!
> 
> 
> Alex, I admit it was uncalled for, it was more a way of saying that some ingredients have become way too cliché and tiresome in trailers, epic choirs for examples. I'm not sure why you would dispute that. I personally do get the feeling I'm seeing the same trailer often from one movie to the next. A side from my bad joke, I'm not sure how I should express this.
Click to expand...


Guy, I'm not disagreeing with those facts at all, as I said I only reacted to uncalled mocking tones, mostly by Gunther to be fair...the rest is just good discussion with different opinions. 

alex


----------



## germancomponist

Lex @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> Guy, I'm not disagreeing with those facts at all, as I said I only reacted to uncalled mocking tones, mostly by Gunther to be fair...the rest is just good discussion with different opinions.
> 
> alex



Alex, I'm sorry if I'm beat out of line with my sometimes provocative manner. I never intended to offend anyone seriously. As I said before, I too like well produced trailers.


----------



## Daryl

I don't really see what all the fuss is about, when it comes to trailers sounding very similar. I would have thought this was the whole point. After all, these really loud, predictable, cliché ridden trailers are following what is effectively a brand. It tells the members of the audience, that if they liked the last film they saw that was full of explosions, violence and two dimensional characters, then they should go and see this one as well, because it is more of the same. To me, that makes sense. After all, there is a proportion of the cinema going audience that likes to know exactly what it is going to get, before plunking down the money for a ticket.

What I do find objectionable though, is when a trailer is scored with the ubiquitous string ostinato, screaming choir and loud bangs and swooshs, and the film turns out to be a gentle, turn of the century comedy about behaviour and manners in the Upper Classes at the turn of the 19th Century. :lol: 

Having said all that, I find the trailers too loud, and have had to ask the staff to turn the volume down more than once.

D


----------



## Lex

germancomponist @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> Lex @ Fri Mar 15 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guy, I'm not disagreeing with those facts at all, as I said I only reacted to uncalled mocking tones, mostly by Gunther to be fair...the rest is just good discussion with different opinions.
> 
> alex
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex, I'm sorry if I'm beat out of line with my sometimes provocative manner. I never intended to offend anyone seriously. As I said before, I too like well produced trailers.
Click to expand...


 =o 

alex


----------



## Lex

Daryl @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> What I do find objectionable though, is when a trailer is scored with the ubiquitous string ostinato, screaming choir and loud bangs and swooshs, and the film turns out to be a gentle, turn of the century comedy about behaviour and manners in the Upper Classes at the turn of the 19th Century. :lol:
> 
> 
> D



Had a bit of those, especially around 2006/07...they would license some of my biggest screamers for a "corset" romantic period drama, and you see it and just go wtf?

alex


----------



## RiffWraith

If you simply do not like trailer music (the typical loud, bombastic track with 'ubiquitous string ostinatos, screaming choir and loud bangs and swooshs') that's fine - you are entitled.

If you knock trailer music (see above), and think it's easy to produce, think anyone can do it, think trailer music composers are near the bottom of the talent barrel, think that trailer music is simplistic, and that it lacks form, imagination, and emotion, think that trailer music is way to cliche, think that there has only been ONE trailer track ever written, or anything that resembles any of what I just wrote - then put your money where your mouth is, and write a trailer track for everyone else to hear. Not just something YOU would call trailer music.... something that is of equal quality - from a comopsitional, orchestration and sonic quality standpoint - to Immediate Music, TSFH, Position Music, etc. There are a few incredibly talented people of this forum who can do great things with the tools that they have. I know - I have heard. But I'll bet the farm that they can not pull off a HQ trailer cue, even if their life depended on it. Or maybe someone else's life :lol:

Anyone up for the task?


----------



## Lex

RiffWraith @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> If you simply do not like trailer music (the typical loud, bombastic track with 'ubiquitous string ostinatos, screaming choir and loud bangs and swooshs') that's fine - you are entitled.
> 
> If you knock trailer music (see above), and think it's easy to produce, think anyone can do it, think trailer music composers are near the bottom of the talent barrel, think that trailer music is simplistic, and that it lacks form, imagination, and emotion, think that trailer music is way to cliche, think that there has only been ONE trailer track ever written, or anything that resembles any of what I just wrote - then put your money where your mouth is, and write a trailer track for everyone else to hear. Not just something YOU would call trailer music.... something that is of equal quality - from a comopsitional, orchestration and sonic quality standpoint - to Immediate Music, TSFH, Position Music, etc. There are a few incredibly talented people of this forum who can do great things with the tools that they have. I know - I have heard. But I'll bet the farm that they can not pull off a HQ trailer cue, even if their life depended on it. Or maybe someone else's life :lol:
> 
> Anyone up for the task?



 Thank you, I started to feel lonely here..lol

alex


----------



## guitarman1960

Being new to this forum,, and looking for constructive and informative discussions I am a bit surprised and disappointed that quite a few of the threads I've looked at seem to contain a fair amount of personal arguing over nothing between people who seem very over-defensive and touchy on the one hand with people who are obviously trying to provoke a reaction on purpose on the other.
We are all into music and trying to learn and improve our skills and seeing as the film music and trailer music community is quite a small one within the big music biz as a whole it would be good if we could discuss things sensibly.
Maybe the fact that a lot of pro composers and 'would like to be' pro composers are all trying to compete within such a very very competitive market is making the atmosphere a bit too tense these days. Or maybe people on the internet just love arguing from the safety of their arm chairs saying things they wouldn't say face to face.
Who knows. But it would be nice to calm things down a bit.

My opinion on the current state of trailer music, based on regular recent cinema visits and regular visits to Trailer Music News, is that:

1. The trailers are generally getting louder and are now sometimes painfully too loud in cinemas (And this comes from an old Motorhead fan!! LOL)

2. Each trailer cue seems to be competing with the last as to who has the loudest, most thunderous hits.

3. The most ridiculously frantic trailers just put you off seeing the movie at all.

4. A good percentage of them, at least 4 out of every 5 could have all come off the same CD by the same composers and producers judging by the sound of them.

5. The trend to include 'dubstep' synth sounds to try and be 'street' and 'cred' is just plain embarrassing and sounds like shit.

6. The combination of frantic ostinatos, detuned metal guitar chugs, reverse hits and over the top choir samples, are a cliché that has completely worn out it's welcome, and now sounds very tired, very lazy, and very very boring.

7. Just occasionally there is a fantastic trailer cue that sounds magnificent, is beautifully composed and constructed, makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck, and want to see the film!!!

Well there's my ten cents worth. I know the reason for most of what is on my list is down to business pressures, focus groups, music supervisors asking for more of what is already proven to be successful etc etc. So I know full well why things are like they are.

As with the history of popular music, it always seems like everything has been done before until someone with a spark of genius comes up with something new and starts the next big trend. Let's hope that comes along soon though eh?


----------



## Guy Bacos

RiffWraith @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> If you simply do not like trailer music (the typical loud, bombastic track with 'ubiquitous string ostinatos, screaming choir and loud bangs and swooshs') that's fine - you are entitled.
> 
> If you knock trailer music (see above), and think it's easy to produce, think anyone can do it, think trailer music composers are near the bottom of the talent barrel, think that trailer music is simplistic, and that it lacks form, imagination, and emotion,



Are people really saying that? I'd have to read the entire thread, I certainly didn't say anything of that sort, in fact I even said, it doesn't mean I could do it. So I won't take this part personally. But I hope you are quoting people when saying this.




RiffWraith @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> think that trailer music is way to cliche,



Absolutely. Well, more so for a certain "epic" style. 




RiffWraith @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> think that there has only been ONE trailer track ever written,



Hmm, Is there any point in apologizing about a comment if people are going to rub it in?



RiffWraith @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> or anything that resembles any of what I just wrote - then put your money where your mouth is, and write a trailer track for everyone else to hear. Not just something YOU would call trailer music.... something that is of equal quality - from a comopsitional, orchestration and sonic quality standpoint - to Immediate Music, TSFH, Position Music, etc.



Only because you asked, I once did a large portion of a trailer for a feature film, which actually was quite impressive. I remember it needed a big ending, (like always) and since there wasn't a budget to have Carmina Burana, I combined some dramatic chords, with choir with a sort of wicked coda of a Rachmaninov piano concerto which peaked at the end, worked out great. I'll answer before you ask, I wouldn't know where to begin to look for this trailer, it's like 8 years old. Of course I couldn't do a fraction of what trailer guys does, but you asked.



RiffWraith @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> There are a few incredibly talented people of this forum who can do great things with the tools that they have. I know - I have heard. But I'll bet the farm that they can not pull off a HQ trailer cue, even if their life depended on it. Or maybe someone else's life :lol:
> 
> Anyone up for the task?



No need to challenge people, nobody is saying it's easy.


----------



## givemenoughrope

I used to get really mad at trailer music. Now, I use the restroom after me at the gf find seats (non-Arclight) and I know where the FF button is on the BR player remote. Problem solved. 

I do wish that the people that made the move also made the trailers. It's like you see this micro-movie that almost invariably sucks ass and then you have to research what other people have said about it the real movie after they've seen it. None of the ads, trailers, swooshes or black hits make me give a crap. They make me hate the movie before I've even seen it. Trailers from almost era until the late 80s were great. It's a shame.


----------



## Lex

Guy what was the name of the film? Maybe I can find it, I'm curious to see. 

alex


----------



## Guy Bacos

Lex @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> Guy what was the name of the film? Maybe I can find it, I'm curious to see.
> 
> alex



Eternal (2004)

I just looked it up, I do see some teasers and trailers, but none so far was the official trailer, at least during the opening. It's not the one with the song. Maybe it got changed for the video release, don't know.


----------



## Lex

Is it this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T80gmoQaCSE

alex


----------



## Guy Bacos

It's that movie, but check my post before yours.


----------



## Lex

Ah...ok

alex


----------



## rJames

Guy Bacos @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> Lex @ Fri Mar 15 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guy what was the name of the film? Maybe I can find it, I'm curious to see.
> 
> alex
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eternal (2004)
> 
> I just looked it up, I do see some teasers and trailers, but none so far was the official trailer, at least during the opening. It's not the one with the song. Maybe it got changed for the video release, don't know.
Click to expand...


Thank goodness!! (that's not your score) I wanted to check out your score also.

We do all know how great of a composer you are Guy but I will still say that when the guy who scored the film also scores the trailer you can tell it from a mile away. It is just a totally different kind of music/score. The editors layer so much stuff in a mix...

Also, the kind of movies that fit "Why do 90% of the trailer music sound the same?" are blockbusters. Indie (and low budget) films bear (almost) no resemblance to blockbuster trailers.

In indys, you may very well hear music from the soundtrack in the trailer.

Blockbusters are different. As Brian Ralston always chimes in (hope I am not misquoting) "its a business decision." Lots of money is at stake. Trailers for blockbusters cater to each audience. There will be Harry Potter trailers that play with an action movie and they are cut and sound different. And HP trailer that play with kids movies. ANd the trailers are different. They just want people to come to the movie. Doesn't matter what the movie is really about.


----------



## Dean

Nice to see this topic back on track. 

I'm with you Alex,Riffwraith and co,I started working in trailers last year and I love it,I've never worked so hard in my life though,its like music bootcamp. 

D


----------



## BlueStar

It's interesting that there are trailer music concerts. http://www.trailermusiclive.com

I'm not related in any way to this project. Just wanted to mention it.


----------



## Greg

Dont forget that only a small fraction of trailer music gets released to the public and an even smaller fraction is actually used in trailers. Lots of composers create great fresh sounding tracks in the vien that just sit on library shelves before an editor takes a shot at syncing it to picture. 

Sure a lot of the songs use the same 'devices' because the editors won't even consider using the music without them. However I would argue that this genre is evolving faster than most. These days editors want the newest, freshest, most intriguing music they can find.

And finally I would argue that GOOD trailer music is _incredibly_ difficult to create. You have to evoke intense emotions in people within the two-ish minute run time. That is impossible unless you create a very very intriguing song. Furthermore, that is probably the reason you are perplexed that so much of it "sucks." The great trailer songs are few and far between but when they do come along, they create a jolt in the genre and an instant shift of what editors are wanting.


----------



## Consona

I think you are focused so much on one part of the film industry. Maybe because it is the biggest, the loudest, the most easily accessible part. Multiplexes are full of _Hollywood_ films (so to speak, sorry if this is undue generalization). Films full of action, superheroes, violence, or animated funny animals. Everybody needs to relax sometimes, to go to see something easy to grasp. But hey, don't tell me that's all you seek in the cinemas, that that's all you expect from film as a medium for expression of someones opinions, experience, etc.

Trailer music for action-packed blockbuster just needs to fit the over-the-top feeling you have from the image you see on the screen. But sometimes this type of music is misused in other type of films just because somebody noticed it has huge impact on average multiplex audience. Film trailer is just an advertising. And it is somewhat peculiar art form.

So does _90% of the trailer music sound the same?_ No, imo, just don't reduce trailer music on _Hollywood type_ or _multiplex type_ trailer music, for lack of better words.



guitarman1960 @ Sat Mar 16 said:


> 7. Just occasionally there is a fantastic trailer cue that sounds magnificent, is beautifully composed and constructed, makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck, and want to see the film!!!


Just out of pure curiosity... why would you want to see some film just because of trailer music?


edit: meanwhile I was writing my post *rJames* pointed out the same idea.


----------



## guitarman1960

For me it's not just the music obviously, it's about the overall effect the trailer creates.

if I'm half interested in seeing a new movie but the trailer is a ridiculous piece of garbage (not just the music, but the whole trailer) I will find that very off putting.

If a trailer has great music which works really well in creating a great vibe with the visuals then together they can create the necessary intrigue to want to go see the movie. I know a trailer is nothing more than an advert but an impeccably crafted trailer where a lot of creativity has gone into it suggests rightly or wrongly that some creativity and thought has gone into the movie, and t's not going to be just some churned out Hollywood action factory crap.

Great trailer music can sometimes still use a lot of cliché ingredients but still be a fantastic track. Mind Heist by Zack Hemsey is in my opinion an amazing track, which I think anyone here would have been very proud to have created.


----------



## Daryl

guitarman1960 @ Sat Mar 16 said:


> Mind Heist by Zack Hemsey is in my opinion an amazing track, which I think anyone here would have been very proud to have created.


And this is where it's all about taste and "fit for purpose". I'm sure that the track works well within the parameters of what it's designed to do, but as a piece of music, to me it is mind numbingly boring, unimaginative and crass, so therefore I wouldn't write something like that, never mind be proud of it.

D


----------



## guitarman1960

Yep music is subjective of course.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Just to be fair, I agree in the art of making trailers, and no, it's not anyone who can do that work. Good trailers are enjoyable and effective. So I hope this is clear, Alex, RiffWraith and co

Having said that, I and many others do find that some ingredients are really getting tiresome in epic trailers. Mocking certain epic clichés was more of a caricature to make the message more obvious, but if some people finds it offensive or maybe thought it was going too far, I can respect that, and it certainly doesn't take anything away from all the hard work that goes into it and trailers are very important. 

But I don't understand why people should take one side or the other on this opinion. 

It's just an observation. Keep it cool.


----------



## freddiehangoler

The main issue, is that now film music, sounds like trailer music...
and that's a shame...trailer is a trailer, not a piece of art. its a candy, not a steak. 
and it doesn't even represent the film, you can create an awesome trailer from a bad film. 
they all sound the same...usually a big braaam. no one will remember a trailer in 100 years from now...the only thing that matters is the story, the concept and how it is manifested in the film's soundtrack and score(music wise). 

regardless to the fact that making a trailer track takes a lot of hard work, it is not a revolutionary genre...so composers tend to follow the consensus of same harmonies and orchestrations. 

The one thing I find interesting is the fact that lately I seem to hear a lot of fantastic sample libraries demo tracks, which unnecessarily sound like the usual trailer tracks...


----------



## TheUnfinished

Check out some trailers from 20 or 30 years ago, they are uniformly awful... we are actually spoilt these days!

Having said that, there does seem to be a tendency towards trailers that practically act as a synopsis for the film, which really annoys me. I'm more than happy with a teaser.

As for trailer music, it seems to be moving away from the choirs/guitars stuff that became a little repetitious. I'm hearing some quite enjoyable melodic stuff with a bit more emotional content out there these days. The use of bands like Coldplay and M83 that we've seen recently are helping push things in that direction (whether you care for Coldplay and M83 or not).


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## TheUnfinished

Check out some trailers from 20 or 30 years ago, they are uniformly awful... we are actually spoilt these days!

Having said that, there does seem to be a tendency towards trailers that practically act as a synopsis for the film, which really annoys me. I'm more than happy with a teaser.

As for trailer music, it seems to be moving away from the choirs/guitars stuff that became a little repetitious. I'm hearing some quite enjoyable melodic stuff with a bit more emotional content out there these days. The use of bands like Coldplay and M83 that we've seen recently are helping push things in that direction (whether you care for Coldplay and M83 or not).


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## j_kranz

I find it interesting no one mentions the other 10% (in actuality its a bit higher than that)... A few years back, after working for a few of the bigger libraries both as an assistant and as a supporting composer, I realized that there is a market out there for stuff that is NOT the big epic choir / action stuff... in fact a substantial market, in genres that were being severely overlooked by the big libraries.

My partner and I started our library, Ear Tonic Music, to primarily cater to Horror pictures and trailers. We thought this up whilst crashing Chris Young's USC film scoring class (honestly who better to inspire a Horror library than Christopher Young!). Now granted we do not get the trailers, nor have the output, of a Two Steps From Hell or Immediate Music, but we did find a little niche which suits us and is not your typical 'trailer music' and allows us to create music we enjoy making. Sure we have some of the typical sounding stuff in our library, buts its a small percentage. We love Horror and that has become our focus and it works for us.

So just my 2 cents... there are other things out there in trailer music which can be fun to create and will get used at some point.


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## EastWest Lurker

vlado hudec @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> Ok, orchestra + gothic choir can be a cliche for some people, but for me it is the art and I love it, esp. TJ's tracks. I can find a lot of power and emotions there, much more than any other styles and genres, faaar more like all classical composers together, actually I hate composers lilke Mozart, Bach, Ravel, Stravinsky..you can stone me to death :D



Fortunately for you, ignorance and bad taste are not punishable by the death penalty :mrgreen:


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## Stiltzkin

http://i.imgur.com/CYU8JsN.gif

Y'all need a calming cat picture to keep you happy 

But I do agree thoroughly - I usually check these forums once a day but took a little break when things were getting a bit depressing to check back up on recently.

I think I wrote about it briefly, but I do find negativity to be highly uninspiring - saying you don't like something is possible to do in a nice way, and it's not about being proud of anything, it's (in my opinion) about just being a nice person...

Anyway, hope you enjoy the cat o


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## germancomponist

j_kranz @ Sat Mar 16 said:


> I find it interesting no one mentions the other 10% (in actuality its a bit higher than that)... A few years back, after working for a few of the bigger libraries both as an assistant and as a supporting composer, I realized that there is a market out there for stuff that is NOT the big epic choir / action stuff... in fact a substantial market, in genres that were being severely overlooked by the big libraries.
> 
> My partner and I started our library, Ear Tonic Music, to primarily cater to Horror pictures and trailers. We thought this up whilst crashing Chris Young's USC film scoring class (honestly who better to inspire a Horror library than Christopher Young!). Now granted we do not get the trailers, nor have the output, of a Two Steps From Hell or Immediate Music, but we did find a little niche which suits us and is not your typical 'trailer music' and allows us to create music we enjoy making. Sure we have some of the typical sounding stuff in our library, buts its a small percentage. We love Horror and that has become our focus and it works for us.
> 
> So just my 2 cents... there are other things out there in trailer music which can be fun to create and will get used at some point.



Hi Jonathan,

I know your library music and yes, you and Dino do very cool stuff. I remember "Meister Jakob"..... .Hm, I don't remember the name of this track, but it is in my head!


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## Lex

Guy Bacos @ Sat Mar 16 said:


> But I don't understand why people should take one side or the other on this opinion.



Me neither, it's a discussion after all. 

Here's a few thoughts and facts about the trailer music business that could help answer some of the questions here. 

- A lot of the times the director of the movie that is being advertised doesn't want anything to do with the trailer. 

-When the director does get involved, the trailer usually ends up as something at least a notch above the rest.

-Usual trailer goes through 40 to 60 revisions/re cuts.

-Every trailer starts as a creative love child between a very talented editor and a music supervisor and sometimes a composer, after that it goes through 40 to 60 revisions and recuts that are demanded by producers of the trailer house, director, marketing executives and often in the end studio executives. Having the director on board is honestly the only thing that can make a difference because it is the only person that can actually put their foot down and cheer for a more creative choice, because creative value is usually the last thing on marketing execs and studio execs mind.

-Most of the time a trailer is not a result of a direct creative collaboration between artists, like the movies are.

-Trailer music libraries have tracks that are "different", most often they never end up in a trailer, even if the editor likes them.

-Keep in mind that for a studio, changing the music is the easiest and cheapest change they can do while going through dozens of revisions, nobody is actually composing it and you don't have to pay a dime until you actually release the thing. "...just put some other music there, and there...and pick something else there"

- So when you put all of this together there's a fact that for a piece of music to be actually used in a big budget trailer it needs to pass your own artistic judgment, then it needs to be liked by the owners of a trailer music house that act as your publisher, then music supervisor needs to like it so that it has a chance to get to the editors, then the editor needs to like it to start working with it, then his bosses at the trailer house need to like it, then if they do it needs to be liked by marketing department and/or the director and/or producers and then if it passes all that it needs to be liked by the studio exec in the end. If it passes all that, then you have to hope that it will survive 40 to 60 revisions before it hits the theaters, then and only then you see what your music was used in and how, and hopefully u get payed (usually many months after the release).

- So why does anyone writes music for trailer libraries at all? Well, it pays well, it gives you room to work at your own pace, no deadlines (until you start doing custom work) and you get to see/hear what you did on a big screen. Some composers swear that they are just doing the music they would be doing anyhow, I find that hard to grasp, but each to his own I guess. For me the challenge started to be how to literally smuggle new ideas, sounds and orchestration experiments in to a rigid structure of 60sec of music that will jump through all the hops and actually end up in a trailer.

-The way I see it, 90% of the trailers are as a form are in the same family tree as pop music videos and product advert videos, and not the movies. The music that is being used in trailers is much closer to pop music then movie scores, if you start analyzing it you will realize that most of trailer music is nothing more then a "hooky" INTRO-BRIDGE-CHORUS. The fact that orchestra is used doesn't really change that.


alex


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## Black Light Recordings

***Post Corrected***


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## Dean

@ Blacklight, 

Pointing out another composers cue as ho-hum or whatever on a public forum for your amusement is not fun its a truely awful suggestion.You're also posting Youtube videos here of other peoples work with your music and now you're suggesting we A/B other composers work publically?

Like you said 'you're new to the game',this is no way to learn the ropes,..think before you post,please. D


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