# Spaces II won't be going Apple Silicon Native apparently, alternative Conv. reverb?



## IFM (Aug 11, 2022)

I apologize but didn't see this mentioned. For those of us that are using the new Macs, I inquired with EW about when we could expect a native version of Spaces II and was told there are no plans to update it and just to use Rosetta (not really an option of you want to run Cubase in native mode).

I really liked this plugin, so am kind of saddened by it. I've replaced it with Seventh Heaven which is great but would like something to replace it...or maybe I should just stick with Seventh, and/or eventually get Cinematic Rooms.


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## dcoscina (Aug 11, 2022)

Weird. I’m using it in Studio One and Logic when they are running native.


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## IFM (Aug 11, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> Weird. I’m using it in Studio One and Logic when they are running native.


Logic is dual, so it is running it via Rosetta inside a Native Logic project. S1 probably does the same thing since the wrapper is around AU's and not VST's.


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## artomatic (Aug 11, 2022)

Hmmm. Very unfortunate.


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## EgM (Aug 11, 2022)

IFM said:


> I apologize but didn't see this mentioned. For those of us that are using the new Macs, I inquired with EW about when we could expect a native version of Spaces II and was told there are no plans to update it and just to use Rosetta (not really an option of you want to run Cubase in native mode).
> 
> I really liked this plugin, so am kind of saddened by it. I've replaced it with Seventh Heaven which is great but would like something to replace it...or maybe I should just stick with Seventh, and/or eventually get Cinematic Rooms.


That's weird... What was the exact wording on this? Like they have no plans right now or it will never be updated to Apple Silicon?

Might also just mean that they're already working on Spaces 3


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## jamwerks (Aug 11, 2022)

Strange. Is it the same for Opus, not M1 ready?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 11, 2022)

Another reason to leave EW in the dust, they've certainly gone downhill.


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## EgM (Aug 11, 2022)

jamwerks said:


> Strange. Is it the same for Opus, not M1 ready?


From their website:


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## IFM (Aug 11, 2022)

jamwerks said:


> Strange. Is it the same for Opus, not M1 ready?


Opus is M1 Native luckily. 


EgM said:


> That's weird... What was the exact wording on this? Like they have no plans right now or it will never be updated to Apple Silicon?
> 
> Might also just mean that they're already working on Spaces 3


They simply said there were no plans to update Spaces II, and you might be right, there could be a Spaces III which would then make sense. I didn't even think to ask if there would be a new version.


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## ryst (Aug 11, 2022)

IFM said:


> I apologize but didn't see this mentioned. For those of us that are using the new Macs, I inquired with EW about when we could expect a native version of Spaces II and was told there are no plans to update it and just to use Rosetta (not really an option of you want to run Cubase in native mode).
> 
> I really liked this plugin, so am kind of saddened by it. I've replaced it with Seventh Heaven which is great but would like something to replace it...or maybe I should just stick with Seventh, and/or eventually get Cinematic Rooms.


You can't go wrong with anything from Liquid Sonics. I have Reverberate and I use it all the time.


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## AceAudioHQ (Aug 11, 2022)

EgM said:


> Might also just mean that they're already working on Spaces 3


would be probably more profitable for EW, buy the same thing again for $299 or update your old Spaces 2 to Spaces 3 for $1200


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## NoamL (Aug 11, 2022)

Won't Rosetta go away eventually? What then?


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## LA68 (Aug 11, 2022)

What about SIR3? If you can wait until BF you can pick that up for 35 or so.


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## EanS (Aug 11, 2022)

It might sound stupid, but did you upgrade from Spaces I? I recall Spaces I has the IR's separately as .wav and using a free convolver like Convology XT will get you in the Stereo side at least, don't know the quad files (True Stereo). Using the same Convology XT (looks as ugly as Spaces, you'll love it ) you can get the free Bricasti M7 IR's where there are quad files too. Convology has also a very nice 480 L in True Stereo format.

For paid options, Liquidsonics, unless you find some attractiveness in Impulse Record's Catalog https://impulserecord.com/project/convology-xt-plugin/ 

Waves IR1 (get IR360, comes with IR1) has a huge IR library too with interesting rooms plus the classic ones (room, plate etc..) . Awful UI too, pairs with standards, lol.


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## Pier (Aug 11, 2022)

NoamL said:


> Won't Rosetta go away eventually? What then?


Eventually but it will be a couple of years.

The original Rosetta 1 was introduced with Tiger and removed in Snow Leopard, although you could still download it. With Lion it wasn't supported anymore.

I'm guessing it will be similar deal with Rosetta 2. If/when Apple removes it from future OS versions you will either lose the software or you will be stuck with an old macOS version.

Honestly if someone needs access to old projects the best strategy would be to just keep an Intel Mac around.


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## Zedcars (Aug 11, 2022)

NoamL said:


> Won't Rosetta go away eventually? What then?


Based on the PowerPC to Intel transition it looks likes we’ve got another 4 years before Apple pulls the plug:






However, the past ≠ the future exactly, so it could be gone sooner that that.


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## Pier (Aug 11, 2022)

Zedcars said:


> However, the past ≠ the future exactly, so it could be gone sooner that that.


Or Apple could keep Rosetta 2 around for more years.

That's the thing with Apple, you never know. They can pull the rug from under you at any time.

Other companies like Adobe, Microsoft, etc, make end of life announcements many years in advance.


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## Zedcars (Aug 11, 2022)

Pier said:


> Or Apple could keep Rosetta 2 around for more years.
> 
> That's the thing with Apple, you never know. They can pull the rug from under you at any time.
> 
> Other companies like Adobe, Microsoft, etc, make end of life announcements many years in advance.


The irony is they don’t look in their rear view mirror too often, but you can bet your life they did when they were planning this 3rd major architecture transition. The last transition would have been used as a blueprint and therefore I have a certain amount of confidence that they would have gone for a 5 year lifespan for Rosetta 2. But it would be nice if they could be transparent about their plans in this regard.

To be fair, Microsoft have no choice to make their plans known in good time as great swathes of businesses and government agencies etc rely upon their sh1t to function.

And as for Adobe well they’d still be running Flash now if it weren’t for Steve Jobs’ intervention when the iPad came out. He was instrumental in the beginning of the end that led to getting that scourge off the internet (even though it took a long time).

Yeah, but I’d agree both companies are more upfront about their plans. Apple seem obsessed with secrecy to their detriment sometimes.


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## NoamL (Aug 11, 2022)

Pier said:


> Eventually but it will be a couple of years.
> 
> The original Rosetta 1 was introduced with Tiger and removed in Snow Leopard, although you could still download it. With Lion it wasn't supported anymore.
> 
> ...


for me, that's a big incentive to use LiquidSonics instead.


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## Pier (Aug 11, 2022)

Zedcars said:


> And as for Adobe well they’d still be running Flash now if it weren’t for Steve Jobs’ intervention when the iPad came out. He was instrumental in the beginning of the end that led to getting that scourge off the internet (even though it took a long time).


Even before the iPhone it was obvious Flash was going to die eventually for people in the web dev industry. Flash was awesome but the Flash Player was absolute garbage.

What killed Flash wasn't Steve Jobs but really that browsers improved considerably with HTML5, CSS3, better JS performance and features, etc.

My conspiracy theory is that Google was probably the main player in killing Flash. At some point they realized they needed to push their web apps forward (Gmail, Maps, Youtube, etc). This eventually led Google to being more involved in the web standards committees (W3C, TC39, etc) and the creation of Chrome.


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## jcrosby (Aug 11, 2022)

EanS said:


> It might sound stupid, but did you upgrade from Spaces I? I recall Spaces I has the IR's separately as .wav and using a free convolver like Convology XT will get you in the Stereo side at least, don't know the quad files (True Stereo). Using the same Convology XT (looks as ugly as Spaces, you'll love it ) you can get the free Bricasti M7 IR's where there are quad files too. Convology has also a very nice 480 L in True Stereo format.
> 
> For paid options, Liquidsonics, unless you find some attractiveness in Impulse Record's Catalog https://impulserecord.com/project/convology-xt-plugin/
> 
> Waves IR1 (get IR360, comes with IR1) has a huge IR library too with interesting rooms plus the classic ones (room, plate etc..) . Awful UI too, pairs with standards, lol.


When I look in my East West support folder all IRs are in a proprietary format called *.eird*

Abandoned Abbey.eird, ACME STORAGE .5.eird, Carlsbad Caverns.eird, etc.

(FYI I only have Spaces I, I never bought Spaces II.... Glad I didn't waste the money!)


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## thesteelydane (Aug 11, 2022)

Your problem (and mine) is not to find a convolution reverb as good as Spaces - that's easy, Reverberate is very good for example. What hurts is losing the IR's of Spaces, they are (at least to me) phenomenal and some of the best I've heard - and unfortunately in a proprietary format.


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## Braveheart (Aug 11, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Another reason to leave EW in the dust, they've certainly gone downhill.


Maybe best to leave Apple. I'm in Windows, and Microsoft is not killing the compatibility of softwares with each update. I'm still using some softwares for many years without being updated, and still no problem...


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 11, 2022)

Braveheart said:


> Maybe best to leave Apple. I'm in Windows, and Microsoft is not killing the compatibility of softwares with each update. I'm still using some softwares for many years without being updated, and still no problem...


It's not just a Apple thing, it's the lack of repairing numerous bugs with OPUS, even bugs they have admitted they aren't going to fix (both Windows and OS). And no, I'm never going back to Windows. The only issue I've had with OS updates is with Waves....whom I could care less about.


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## EgM (Aug 11, 2022)

Braveheart said:


> Maybe best to leave Apple. I'm in Windows, and Microsoft is not killing the compatibility of softwares with each update. I'm still using some softwares for many years without being updated, and still no problem...


Yeah, I still use this old 2001 dinosaur daily and it still works perfectly!  Windows 10 forever!

_I still use Macs, no fanboyism or anything, just saying that the statement is in fact true_


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## dterry (Aug 11, 2022)

Pier said:


> My conspiracy theory is that Google was probably the main player in killing Flash. At some point they realized they needed to push their web apps forward (Gmail, Maps, Youtube, etc). This eventually led Google to being more involved in the web standards committees (W3C, TC39, etc) and the creation of Chrome.


Short sidebar since this is a detour - In my opinion, data mining probably killed Flash. It was lightyears ahead of any of the current dumbed-down HTML and Javascript garbage for content presentation, but there was no way to scan it for user data other than the html container page's metadata. Google, Microsoft, Apple, and a few other user-data-interested, and net-controlling/monitoring parties probably had a hand in eliminating it.

Back to Spaces alternatives - as already mentioned, Liquidsonics' Reverberate is a very good alternative. It is disappointing Spaces 2 won't be moved over, but I wouldn't be surprised if that is mainly intended to open the sales-door for Spaces 3.

In the meantime, I would suggest considering Cinematic Rooms, Reverberate 3, or Tai Chi - all different approaches and capabilities, but similar in sound.

Another option is Vienna Suite Pro, which includes Hybrid Reverb and Convolution Reverb. The Suite is surround capable up to 12.2, and you can load your own IRs. Vienna Suite Pro (which includes many other VSL plugins) is only $269 (US) now. I paid a lot more than that for it a few years ago. Might be worth it just for Hybrid, but I would demo it first.


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## Wes Antczak (Aug 11, 2022)

I really like Fog Convolver 2 from Audiothing. It has many creative options to work with... though perhaps too many for some users? Anyway, I really like it so far. I believe it's currently on sale too.


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## Pier (Aug 11, 2022)

Wes Antczak said:


> I really like Fog Convolver 2 from Audiothing. It has many creative options to work with... though perhaps too many for some users? Anyway, I really like it so far. I believe it's currently on sale too.


The UI is not great IMO.

If you just want to do some convolution, MConvolutionEZ is totally free and has a much better UI. MConvolutionMB is $50 (often on sale for $25) and is just a more powerful plugin than Fog Convolver with support for more formats, more features, etc.

Also most DAWs have a convolution plugins these days (Logic, Cubase, Bitwig, Live, etc).


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## carlc (Aug 11, 2022)

Is Altiverb still considered a favorite? I know it is one of the few options that comes with a Teldex IR. For me, it is too expensive, but I haven't tracked sales.


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## NoamL (Aug 11, 2022)

Acknowledging that this Spaces 3 talk is all purely hypothetical, and may be annoying for developers to read (along the lines of "when's that Spitfire subscription coming, eh?") but Spaces 3 would be DOA. I paid for Spaces 1 and then again for Spaces 2, there's just no way I'm paying again for the same plugin. In fact, Spaces is the last EW thing I use; and anything short of a guarantee of "we will keep it compatible as MacOS evolves" would make it a dealbreaker for me to slap Spaces on any VEPro project for a tv show or anything else I might return to over the next few years. This isn't 2008 anymore when you have your choice of 3 VIs for oboes.

Cinematic Rooms Pro is powerful, sounds great, and has new features (ducking) added for free. Plus there's try before you buy!


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## Daren Audio (Aug 11, 2022)

carlc said:


> Is Altiverb still considered a favorite? I know it is one of the few options that comes with a Teldex IR. For me, it is too expensive, but I haven't tracked sales.


Altiverb is in the same/similar league as MIR Pro and considered one of the top convo reverbs.
It doesn't go on sale so your best bet is to rack up BestCoin points via BestService. 

I do like the simple GUI of Spaces II with the dry/wet knob. 
However, I prefer not to invest in plugins that get bricked where you'd have to buy a brand new version of release.


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## method1 (Aug 11, 2022)

Altiverb sadly isn't native yet either, but they have committed to updating at some point.

HOFA IQ Reverb 2 is pretty cool (if a bit fugly) and has some unique features:








HOFA IQ-Series Reverb V2 | HOFA-Plugins


With EQ, compressor, modulation, saturation, gate, IR envelope and […]




hofa-plugins.de


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## Emanuel Fróes (Aug 11, 2022)

IFM said:


> I apologize but didn't see this mentioned. For those of us that are using the new Macs, I inquired with EW about when we could expect a native version of Spaces II and was told there are no plans to update it and just to use Rosetta (not really an option of you want to run Cubase in native mode).
> 
> I really liked this plugin, so am kind of saddened by it. I've replaced it with Seventh Heaven which is great but would like something to replace it...or maybe I should just stick with Seventh, and/or eventually get Cinematic Rooms.


If i learned something....see: 

a) these TOP vst´s all have they super convo reverbs 
b) if you want cristaline mixes, mostly for game or film, i guess algo reverbs are the key

It is all about TONE and AMOUNT.

I use the Ir1 by waves as alternative to any EW bug (and the Epic and Echosphere as algorithm reverbs by Waves). I would like to buy Reverblab, but dont see any logical reason over these two more than looking like a nice walk talk. 

You can also check the *MIR system by VSL?*

BUt i am happy to see your report and (looking all the other reports) how useless suddenly my CC seems to be then, unless I spend time caring about it as my mother cares about the garden. I will save some favorites, but anyway thing urgently about buying a HQ PLAN B orchestra. 

I am between Symphobia and 8dio . Symphobia looks very direct to load and (fucking) play , and 8Dio looks to have the best woodwinds, essential instruments for any counterpoint addict

I want to go to mac studio soon and Opus is not there yet. Even if it is updated, i dont trust the bugs. But if they correct all, and dont´s espect us to be a Phd in EastWEst support, suddenly I spent some ca. 1000$ that could be saved for more some comissions in my opnion...

And *funny fact:* when i have problems the free vst´s i have are who are doing the deal. They are already many, offered by many good companies. The SAM update is very cool, the organ is for me already perfect, and the short low strings are absolutely fashion. 

Depends on which project you are, to decide if something is missing, like some harmonics , of course.... 

IN matter of music licensing or free composing, let me say: one can do so much with free libraries, if you adapt to them. 

But to get good clients no, because there is a probability issue there, and they will come with something probably very specific, or that will inspire you to some sophisticated ideas. MOstly envolving some good solo instrument here or there... And the only i could quote is the FOundations Guitar (HEavyocity), still not for concert, but only "cinematic" use.

BY the way: PRINCIPALLY if you offer mockups as service and they come with a score, the bank account for and your business side will say hi to you... HEre reverb is not enough, or not the fastest way to mix, I suggest researchnig the MIR system by VSL, to see if helps, or if its just atractive but not efficient long term.

Back to reverb: I start to think that one good algorithm reverb + the built-in reverb of HQ instruments is good. Anyway I use the Ir1 by waves as alternative to any EW bug (and the Epic and Echosphere as algorithm reverbs)


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## Sycraft (Aug 13, 2022)

NoamL said:


> Cinematic Rooms Pro is powerful, sounds great, and has new features (ducking) added for free. Plus there's try before you buy!


Also in the "good algorithmic reverb" category is Stratus and Symphony from iZotope. For their retail price they can GTFO but they come in some of their bundles and sometimes go on sale for way less. Interface is pretty ugly, but they do a good job. I was never an algo reverb fan in the past but the newest ones, these included, have made a convert of me. I demo'd Cinematic Rooms and liked it a whole lot as well, much better interface, but since I got these two as part of a bundle I've settled on using them.

https://www.izotope.com/en/shop/exponential-audio-stratus.html

The difference between the normal and the "3D" version is support for more than 7.1 channels. Normal supports up to 7.1, 3D supports up to 22.2. The presets scale up so you can use the same preset for stereo and Atmos if you like.

I still might get Cinematic Rooms at some point though.


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## tmhuud (Aug 13, 2022)

Gee, where’s Phoenix when you need him…?


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## Patryk Scelina (Sep 21, 2022)

IFM said:


> I apologize but didn't see this mentioned. For those of us that are using the new Macs, I inquired with EW about when we could expect a native version of Spaces II and was told there are no plans to update it and just to use Rosetta (not really an option of you want to run Cubase in native mode).
> 
> I really liked this plugin, so am kind of saddened by it. I've replaced it with Seventh Heaven which is great but would like something to replace it...or maybe I should just stick with Seventh, and/or eventually get Cinematic Rooms.


It is a lot of effort but I actually started resampling IRs from EW Spaces some time ago. Only because EW Spaces I and then EW Spaces II plugin is causing some issues in Cubase. At least on Mac.
But those IRs are amazing so in order to use them I simply resampled those Impulses and use them in Cubase Reverence plugin. I made a test to check if there's a difference in sound and I can honestly say it sounds exactly the same when resampled in True Stereo Quad format.

It Is time consuming process but it's free and there's no need to buy another plugin.


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## jcrosby (Sep 22, 2022)

Patryk Scelina said:


> It is a lot of effort but I actually started resampling IRs from EW Spaces some time ago. Only because EW Spaces I and then EW Spaces II plugin is causing some issues in Cubase. At least on Mac.
> But those IRs are amazing so in order to use them I simply resampled those Impulses and use them in Cubase Reverence plugin. I made a test to check if there's a difference in sound and I can honestly say it sounds exactly the same when resampled in True Stereo Quad format.
> 
> It Is time consuming process but it's free and there's not need to buy another plugin.


I actually started doing the same thing last year. Unfortunately Spaces feels a bit left behind... I also can't hear a perceivable difference. It'd be nice if EW made an effort, but work doesn't wait so....


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## IFM (Sep 22, 2022)

Patryk Scelina said:


> It is a lot of effort but I actually started resampling IRs from EW Spaces some time ago. Only because EW Spaces I and then EW Spaces II plugin is causing some issues in Cubase. At least on Mac.
> But those IRs are amazing so in order to use them I simply resampled those Impulses and use them in Cubase Reverence plugin. I made a test to check if there's a difference in sound and I can honestly say it sounds exactly the same when resampled in True Stereo Quad format.
> 
> It Is time consuming process but it's free and there's not need to buy another plugin.


I had an impulse of TODD AO and have ended up using that in Reverence as well.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 22, 2022)

Patryk Scelina said:


> It is a lot of effort but I actually started resampling IRs from EW Spaces some time ago. Only because EW Spaces I and then EW Spaces II plugin is causing some issues in Cubase. At least on Mac.
> But those IRs are amazing so in order to use them I simply resampled those Impulses and use them in Cubase Reverence plugin. I made a test to check if there's a difference in sound and I can honestly say it sounds exactly the same when resampled in True Stereo Quad format.
> 
> It Is time consuming process but it's free and there's no need to buy another plugin.



What is the process you use to go about doing that? 

The main value of Spaces is not the actual software, its the particular collection of "spaces" that have been captured and available there. You can switch to Reverberate or one of the other convolution software out there, but most of them do not provide such an excellent set of IR's from the 'right' set of rooms, like Spaces does. Well, Altiverb does also, and that is the main value of that software too.

There actually aren't very many convolution reverbs out there that have that right set of rooms, only a few...while there are tons of free or cheap convolution reverbs that can use freely available IR's or what they have provided... Reverberate, for example, is excellent IR software.. I mean excellent! But it mainly includes IR's from hardware units and a few rooms...but nothing like the collection provided in Spaces and Altiverb. The other products from LiquidSonics also are using a very limited set of real-room IR's...if at all. LiquidSonics has totally excellent IR technology in terms of the software...but put simply...their IR collection is not even remotely close to on par with that provided in Spaces I/II or some others.

There are ways to buy a few generic IR's of awesome rooms out there, but its uncommon and usually expensive. Mostly the best rooms were sampled only a few times and put into encrypted form that can only be used in tightly controlled convolution players with good copy protection. 

That being said, I was completely annoyed by EW's upgrade pricing to Spaces II and never actually upgraded it. I kept waiting for them to offer it on a good sale and they never did. There is maybe 0.001% chance I would later upgrade to Spaces III if and when it comes out. But I also have other products I now use, MIRpro, among other things.


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## Patryk Scelina (Sep 22, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> What is the process you use to go about doing that?
> 
> The main value of Spaces is not the actual software, its the particular collection of "spaces" that have been captured and available there. You can switch to Reverberate or one of the other convolution software out there, but most of them do not provide such an excellent set of IR's from the 'right' set of rooms, like Spaces does. Well, Altiverb does also, and that is the main value of that software too.
> 
> ...


That's all true. I actually find using those resampled IR even better, because Reverence (and many other Convolution plugins) gives some extra functionalities. Reverence for instance allow to timetretch IR so you can change timing of the reverb a little bit. I don't own Reverberate 3 but I saw it has many more features which allows to alter original Impulse. 

I see there's more interest in capturing those IR in my inbox as well so I'll try to post some short tutorial of the process later today.


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## Patryk Scelina (Sep 22, 2022)

OK. Since few guys asked I recorded some short video about capturing IRs.

Hope this will help some of You to maintain using Convolution reverbs which are no longer supported on your systems.



One thing which I forgot to mention in the video. You may Normalize all the captured samples. I use batch normalization in RX but You can even use Audacity to make batch normalization.


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## jcrosby (Sep 23, 2022)

Patryk Scelina said:


> OK. Since few guys asked I recorded some short video about capturing IRs.
> 
> Hope this will help some of You to maintain using Convolution reverbs which are no longer supported on your systems.
> 
> ...



This is similar to what I do but I bounce two stereo files, and use Fog Convolver which has a true stereo mode that merges two stereo audio files into quad. In Logic the gain plugin pans the impulse hard left/right before hitting Spaces on each stereo channel. Same end result (but with two discrete files), slightly different method... Basically depending on DAW or convolution plugin this is another option...


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## Patryk Scelina (Sep 23, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> This is similar to what I do but I bounce two stereo files, and use Fog Convolver which has a true stereo mode that merges two stereo audio files into quad. In Logic the gain plugin pans the impulse hard left/right before hitting Spaces on each stereo channel. Same end result (but with two discrete files), slightly different method... Basically depending on DAW or convolution plugin this is another option...


True. I used to bounce 2 stereo files and then convert them to quad but I just wanted to simplify this to save some time. So the routing just makes that process a little bit faster and Quad files are required by Reverence. It's unable to combine 2 files, at least I know nothing about it


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