# Mixing tools arsenal - beginner



## Aero10 (Nov 24, 2021)

Hey everyone,

I am new to music production. Since it's Black Friday season, it's as good a time as it gets to equip myself with tools for mixing and production.
The idea is to go after cinematic/hybrid, orchestral and rock/metal music. With a bit of mixing of these genres at times as well.

I would like to know, what are the basic tools/plugins a music producer should have?
Certainly there are many free options available and DAWs (mine is Reaper) also come with EQs, reverbs, etc. as well.
However, my thinking is, if I know there are tools I will be using in the long run, I might as well pick good ones already and get used to working with them.

Currently I only have a couple of Izotope reverbs. I plan to snatch FabFilter Pro-Q 3 when I see it at a good price.
Then there is also tons of options with delays, compressors, limiters... Here's where I start to get lost.
And I didn't even get to Izotope production tools, vocal editing software, headphones compensation, and anything else I haven't come across yet.

I am aware that that my question is fuzzy - so is my knowledge of the subject. I hope you can bear with me through this post/thread and offer some much needed guidance.
If I missed on some important details I will gladly elaborate.

Thank you very much for your help, I really appreciate it!
AM

Edit: I just noticed there is a _Newbie Questions _sub-forum. If it is a better fit for the thread, it can be moved.


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## José Herring (Nov 24, 2021)

Aero10 said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I am new to music production. Since it's Black Friday season, it's as good a time as it gets to equip myself with tools for mixing and production.
> The idea is to go after cinematic/hybrid, orchestral and rock/metal music. With a bit of mixing of these genres at times as well.
> ...


What you have is good. I'm not sure about Izotope Reverbs. Do you mean R2 R4? If so, those are great reverbs. 

If you can afford it get the Plugin Alliance Mix and Master bundle. It will give you a lot of choices that you can then decide what you like. 

The only think right now that you are really lacking are some good Compressors and a variety of EQ so you can hear the difference. The PA bundle will give you that variety so you can start to judge which tool is good for which applications. 

If you don't want to go monthly look for sales for PA, Waves, ect. 

Some good inexpensive plugins though that I always forget to mention are from Hornet. 

I'm going to link to as many free to cheap tools that I can find. When I was starting I used only stock plugins and free tools. I have to admit, it was a great learning experience. Also taught me why and when I should pay. 






HoRNet makes some of the best cheap VST audio plugins, AU and AAX


HoRNet is the maker of some of the best vst audio plugins, from character compressor to volume automation utility and equalizers, vintage and modern



www.hornetplugins.com









Tokyo Dawn Labs


High quality audio processors made with love. Compatible with VST, Audio-Unit and AAX audio plugin hosts, Windows and Mac OS.




www.tokyodawn.net









Now, all plugins are free on Patreon!


https://www.patreon.com/analogobsession



analogobsession.com





Those should get you started. The great thing about starting now, is that there are so many good free plugins for everything that I'm seriously doubting if from now on I should be paying for stuff. Often times I just donate to people that provide free stuff just because I feel so bad for using their very fine products without giving anything in return. It's like taking advantage of somebody else's kindness. So I encourage others to do the same. If you find yourself using it, give a little back.


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## Aero10 (Nov 24, 2021)

Thank you very much for your reply! 



> What you have is good. I'm not sure about Izotope Reverbs. Do you mean R2 R4? If so, those are great reverbs.


That's right. R2, R4, Nimbus, PhoenixVerb.



> If you don't want to go monthly look for sales for PA, Waves, ect.


Indeed I would rather not go monthly. Giving PA and Waves a quick look, there is loads and loads to choose from. Could you suggest a couple of essentials to get me started? I will look for BF deals or bundles.

I very much like your idea of giving free plugins a go, and especially donating to the awesome developers. I considered starting with free plugins also. Then changed my mind thinking, I will sooner or later need good plugins (which tend to cost), so why not start with them from the get go.
But I think you are right, I can start with free/cheap ones and it should get me somewhere.


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## José Herring (Nov 24, 2021)

Aero10 said:


> Thank you very much for your reply!
> 
> 
> That's right. R2, R4, Nimbus, PhoenixVerb.
> ...


I have some Waves bundles that I like a lot and others that I intend to get.

Here's what I have and like:

CLA bundles
API Bundles
L3 Maximizers/Limiters
Schepps Parallel Particles
And Lo Air
GTR3 (for processing synths)

For PA I have a mix/master subscription. 

What I really like so far are:

Amek 200 EQ
BX_console Amek 9099
SPL Iron
SPL Transient designer
Shadow Hills Mastering Compressors
All the Unfiltered audio stuff for sound design
...And many many more that I can't remember at the moment because it's all so overwhelming the amount of choices. 

Free/Cheap plugins are cool because it will give you a sense of what will work for your music before you start plopping down $$$$. Like I bought Fabfilter EQ for nearly full price I think and it turns out that the $20 hornet EQ which I also have does nearly the same thing. I mean I don't regret Fabfilter for a moment but honestly had I heard Hornet first I probably wouldn't have gotten Fabfilter, ect. 

TDL compressors and EQ's are really, really great. I put them between your DAW and the best paid pluigns as way above most DAW stock plugins and just underneath the best paid plugins. I like them because they do their job with little to no "character" except for Molot compressor which they got from a guy name Vladgsound. Molot has a lot of character.


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## Living Fossil (Nov 24, 2021)

The Tokyo Dawn Labs stuff is almost mandatory.
(IIRC the Kotelnikov GE is as cheap as 10 Euros at audiodeluxe.com right now.
It's one of the few compressors i use on the Master, despite of having lots of comps)


As for an EQ, the best one in its category by quite a margin is still a very new release and therefore quite unknown by most people:
It's the Kirchhoff EQ. 









Kirchhoff-EQ - Effects - Three-Body Technology


Kirchhoff-EQ is an ultimate 32-band parametric EQ plugin built for all critical professional applications. It has refined sound quality, analogue-matched curves, 11 filter types with continuously variable shape and 30 vintage EQ types modelled from realworld devices. The builtin dynamic...



www.threebodytech.com





For mojo plugins you should have a look at the Black Rooster bundle.
Great plugins...









AAX/AU/VST Audio Plugins from Black Rooster Audio


Black Rooster Audio is an eager software company from Germany that brings you premium quality audio plugins in AAX/VST/Audio Units.




blackroosteraudio.com


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## José Herring (Nov 24, 2021)

This is the Hornet EQ I have. It's on sale for about $10. It was a "no brainer" even when it was full price. https://www.hornetplugins.com/plugins/hornet-total-eq/


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## patrick76 (Nov 24, 2021)

A good starting place could be the Waves SSL E or the Plugin Alliance Brainworx bx_console SSL 4000 E for rock/metal music and either of those plugins are pretty good. The ProQ 3 is great as well. 

The good news is Waves and Plugin Alliance have frequent sales. There really are quite a lot of good plugins available out there from many companies.

I’d recommend looking into a service like Pure Mix or Mix with the Masters. Both have some great content and can help you determine what engineers that you admire are using on their mixes.


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## szczaw (Nov 24, 2021)

Toneboosters plugins are fully functional. You can use them until you decide to buy, or not !


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## szczaw (Nov 24, 2021)

TB EQ4 has AI curves that could be good to start with.


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## Aero10 (Nov 24, 2021)

Thank you very much to all of you for the answers! I am blown away with all the helpful tips I got and there is quite some homework ahead of me.

Kirchoff-EQ looks really nice. Though it comes at 10x the price of Hornet EQ. So I will need to give EQ a bit of a consideration. As for the Tokyo Dawn Labs, plugins for 0-10€ seem to be no brainer indeed.

I will need to do a bit of research on all the suggestions. And any further suggestions are still more than welcome, of course!
But the main takeaway for me is that I don't need to worry about picking the "right" plugins (and spending $$$) at the moment. That itself was probably the biggest revelation I had so far in discovering audio production actually.


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## Tralen (Nov 24, 2021)

Audiothing's plugins are almost free right now. I highly recommend Flip EQ and Fog Convolver.


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 24, 2021)

I’ve selected Tai Chi over all Exponential/iZotope reverbs, and Valhalla Delay over al other delays. I have others, of course.

The Fabfilter mixing bundle will likely be on sale and that’ll get you core, transparent mixing tools. But you can use all Tokyo Dawn instead (GE versions). Kotelnikov GE and SlickEQ M have definite value for cheap - every bit as good as any other costing lots more. Kush Audio plugins are top character plugins, but there’s others (at least get TWK on sale for $17).

Think: EQ, limiter, track compressors, mix compressors, saturation, distortion, reverbs, delay, etc as far as plugin types. Then think of one transparent one and one character one of each. And then maybe stop for awhile and learn.


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## re-peat (Nov 25, 2021)

Aero, if, like you say, you’re new to all this, I would suggest (1) not to over-buy at this stage (2) not to buy something because it’s cheap and (3) certainly not to buy something because someone — whom you don’t know from Adam or Eve — on a forum says you should.

Forgive me if the following sounds a bit patronizing (it's certainly not intended), but: proceed one step at a time and make your purchases according to your learning process. No good buying 20 or so plugins during the next few days as you’ll likely going to be completely overwhelmed by all that you need to do in order to master all these plugins and chances are you won’t be giving a substantial amount of them the study and excercises they require.

Sure, you might miss a few golden opportunities this Black Friday, but next year there’ll be another one — and in between there are several more sales — and by that time you will have a much better idea of what you _really_ need.

The thorough learning process is absolutely essential, I find. (Otherwise, why buy the stuff in the first place?) Take enough time to study each and every plugin you purchase, learn all there is to know about them, and train your ears. That way, you will not only improve your production skills enormously, but you will also know much better if you need something additional and what that something should be.

(Also: don’t buy stuff because it is endorsed by some celebrity producer or used by a famous someone. Only buy good stuff of which you’re sure it’ll benefit _your_ vision and _your_ music.)

And I most certainly would NOT start with channel strips and the like.

(And never think that simply because you bought something that emulates a legendary piece of studio equipment — some hardware from, say, Neve, SSL, Amek or whatever — that your mixes will automatically sound better from the moment you load up that plugin. It doesn’t work like that.)

Buy one really good EQ, one really good dynamics processor, get to know both of these plugins like the back of your hand — a deep knowledge of EQ’ing and dynamic processing is the foundation on which all one's production expertise is built — and also consider getting a reliable metering tool. That should be plenty to keep you busy, and hopefully very excited, for quite some time.

_


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## re-peat (Nov 25, 2021)

If I were in your situation, Aero, I would buy the *Sonnox Claro EQ*. (Currently still at its introductory price.) The Kirchhoff which Fossil suggested is a sensational piece of kit, no doubt about it, but perhaps a little too complex as a first (non-DAW) EQ. And rather CPU-intensive, apparently.
The big appeal of the Claro, on top of being amazingly good as well, is that it is a highly educational tool, giving very helpful visual feedback on the EQ-process. And it takes you, if you want that, through three steps of EQ’ing: firstly, the broad strokes, secondly, the more detailed work and finally, the contextual work.

Compressor-wise, the choices are endless. Maybe your DAW has a good enough compressor already, there’s a good chance it has, in which case you have no urgent need for another. So again: learn all about the art of compression, that way you’ll know if you need something better or different-sounding than what you already have.

For metering, I would suggest the *ADPTR Audio Metric AB*, mainly because, besides offering comprehensive metering, it also has tremendous educational value. (And it’s yours for only $29.99 — a ridiculously cheap price — if you use the code BFD1-2999 when purchasing at PluginAlliance today or tomorrow.)

_


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## patrick76 (Nov 25, 2021)

re-peat said:


> (Also: don’t buy stuff because it is endorsed by some celebrity producer or used by a famous someone. Only buy good stuff of which you’re sure it’ll benefit _your_ vision and _your_ music.)


True, but when you’re starting out it is very difficult to know what will benefit your vision and music, so looking to the work of mix engineers whose work you admire to see what tools they use can be a good starting point.


re-peat said:


> And I most certainly would NOT start with channel strips and the like.


I’m curious why you suggest not starting with a channel strip. Do you think it would confuse someone just starting out?


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## Zanshin (Nov 25, 2021)

If I could do it all over knowing what I know now. I'd buy Fabfilter Mastering Bundle and most of what Goodhertz offers and call it a day.


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## Trevor Meier (Nov 25, 2021)

I would highly recommend staying away from Waves. That’s where I started, and while for a generation they were the best there is, the last several years have seen lacklustre releases with little to no anti-aliasing. 

Fabfilter is outstanding, as is everything by Tokyo Dawn. Pick either and you won’t regret it - they’re likely to be plugins you’ll still be reaching for years from now.


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## Aero10 (Nov 25, 2021)

This was all great help so far. Especially narrowing down the options for me to look out for.

@re-peat your advice is not at all patronizing! It is very well written and I appreciate taking your time to share the insights with a beginner.

I'll google/youtube it for sure, but still I would like to ask for a brief summary: what are dynamics processor and metering tool? What they are used for?

Sonnox Claro EQ looks good, but it's not the cheapest of options. Especially with GBP conversion and potential VAT. So I'll probably go with something TDL for now.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 25, 2021)

Trevor Meier said:


> I would highly recommend staying away from Waves. That’s where I started, and while for a generation they were the best there is, the last several years have seen lacklustre releases with little to no anti-aliasing.
> 
> Fabfilter is outstanding, as is everything by Tokyo Dawn. Pick either and you won’t regret it - they’re likely to be plugins you’ll still be reaching for years from now.


I agree about avoiding Waves...and only because of their upgrade scheme. IMO, they are he MacDonald's of the plugin world. 

Fabfilter is indeed top notch. @Aero10 Fabfilter rarely goes on sale, and when it does, it's not much more than what they're currently offering for BF. Once you buy a plugin(s) from them, you qualify for discounts on their other plugins. I also recommend Seventh Heaven Standard by Liquidsonics as a good reverb....currently on sale for $49.


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## Tralen (Nov 25, 2021)

Aero10 said:


> I'll google/youtube it for sure, but still I would like to ask for a brief summary: what are dynamics processor and metering tool? What they are used for?


I don't want to answer for re-peat, but I will give you a summary.

A dynamics processor is any plugin that act on the dynamics (changes in loudness) of the signal. A Compressor is an example of such plugin, it could be used, for instance, to level the loudness of the incoming audio to get a more even performance. Other examples of dynamics processors are Limiters, Transient Shapers, etc.

A metering tool is something that you use to analyze your track. It is used to identify problem areas, so you can fix them with other tools. It is used to check frequency information, stereo information, phase correlation, etc.

And don't let the jargon intimidate you, it is not that complicated.


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## re-peat (Nov 25, 2021)

Couldn't have said it better. Thanks, Tralen!

_


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 25, 2021)

This is a wonderful loudness meter. The free version is great.









Youlean Loudness Meter - Free VST, AU and AAX plugin


Youlean Loudness Meter is your ultimate free VST, AU and AAX plugin for loudness measurement. Featuring LU, LUFS, LKFS, LRA and PLR measurements.




youlean.co


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## José Herring (Nov 25, 2021)

The Sonnox EQ looks fantastic really. Never noticed it before. It's a good price right now even for a beginner.


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## Aero10 (Nov 26, 2021)

Once again, thank you all for explanations and recommendations.

I'm going after an EQ. From the posts so far, I have narrowed it down to:
- Sonnox Claro EQ
- One of TDL offerings
- FabFilter Pro-Q 3

Any thoughts on why I would pick one over another? Or even an alternative to consider (and why)?
I didn't mean to diverge this thread into shopping assistance discussion. But I got to this point where I'm making a purchase, and help is most welcome due to my lack of experience. Thanks!


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## Trevor Meier (Nov 26, 2021)

I’d suggest either Fabfilter or TDL. They’re both great tools, and great tools for learning. I like Fabfilter for surgical, precise work. I use Tokyo Dawn more often though - I find the sonic character is more musical. Both have spectrum analyzers to show you what’s happening. 

If you can’t decide, I’d go with TDL simply because they’re much more affordable. I think there’s a sale on at one of the dealers where many of the TDL plugins are ~$10. Despite their affordability I consider them some of my very best plugins. I reach for them all the time.


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## Trevor Meier (Nov 26, 2021)

Just took a look… the entire TDR bundle will cost you less than Pro-Q 3 right now: https://www.audiodeluxe.com/products/audio-plugins/tokyo-dawn-labs-tdr-everything-bundle

In my opinion this is a no-brainer. Get the TDL suite. If you learn just the tools in this bundle you’ll have everything you need to create excellent mixes.


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## Aero10 (Nov 29, 2021)

Alrighty, I went with TDR Everything Bundle  It includes:
- TDR Molot GE
- TDR Limiter 6 GE
- TDR SlickEQ Mastering
- TDR Nova GE
- TDR Kotelnikov GE
- TDR VOS SlickEQ GE

No doubt this collection will keep me busy and learning for quite a while.
I suppose it's unlikely, but still I will use the opportunity to ask whether this collection is missing any basic tool a music production toolbox should have? Taking into account I already own a couple of Izotope reverbs.
Thanks


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## Trevor Meier (Nov 29, 2021)

Congratulations! I would say you are very well set up. Avoid GAS (gear acquisition syndrome) and just get down to work learning your new beauties!


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## proggermusic (Nov 29, 2021)

Really good choice going with TDR. Those are probably all the tools you need to keep you busy for a LONG time, and they can be used on the biggest productions for the highest-end studios anywhere. Great developer!

If you end up wanting some more options for reverb and delay, I would highly recommend Valhalla VintageVerb and Valhalla Delay. They're $50 each and they've made nearly every other reverb and delay plugin I own obsolete (and I have too many). VintageVerb has been my go-to for a decade and the only thing that's threatened to default it is yet another Valhalla plug, "Room."


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## Junolab (Nov 29, 2021)

Perhaps someone already mentioned it, but if you're new ro mixing the biggest mistake you can do is to start buying plugins. You're idea is fine, but you're likely going to waste money and go in to the deep hole most goes into which is GAS (gear acquisition syndrome). Reapers stock plugins is more than fine to get you going and when you're ready for the next step because you're already aware of how a compressor works, what an eq can do and so on, there's tons of free and super cheap stuff out there already (properly many good suggestions in this thread).

You won't get better by buying plugins and you will run the risk of having an idea that a bad mix is because of the plugins. It won't be. At least not for the next 5 years of your journey. And your pick of a bought plugin is also going to be much better as youll know what you lack and what a trial will show you.

My 2 cent.


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## easyrider (Nov 29, 2021)

I agree, Dan Worrall….has done a few videos where he gets a perfect Null with Stock Reaper plugins and other higher cost third party plugins….

If you are starting out….You don’t need to complicate things….learn the stocks ones first and actually understand how they work in a mix.


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## Aero10 (Nov 29, 2021)

proggermusic said:


> Really good choice going with TDR. Those are probably all the tools you need to keep you busy for a LONG time, and they can be used on the biggest productions for the highest-end studios anywhere. Great developer!
> 
> If you end up wanting some more options for reverb and delay, I would highly recommend Valhalla VintageVerb and Valhalla Delay. They're $50 each and they've made nearly every other reverb and delay plugin I own obsolete (and I have too many). VintageVerb has been my go-to for a decade and the only thing that's threatened to default it is yet another Valhalla plug, "Room."


Thanks. Given what the fellows said following your post, I will probably delay (maybe pun intended) the purchase for a while. But will sure keep that recommendation in mind.


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## b_elliott (Nov 29, 2021)

While I am sending my "2 cents) the last 3 postings say it all.

Yesterday I spent the entire day demoing the following mix plugin variations:

1. Channel strip Lindell 80 Series (now on 7 day demo)
2. MV-2 (Waves compressor)+ Ozone 8 (Izotope channel strip) on master bus only (original purchased @5 years ago)
3. Ayaic plugins (Hyper-EQ & Mix Monitor) (last month pick-up).
4. Fat Channel XT (Presonus freebie channel strip never used.)

I took an intense percussion tune I had composed earlier then did 4 separate mixes to the best of my ability.

End result:
1. All four mixes sucked. Some less muddy or boomy than others.

2. The bottom line: if you lack mixing fundamentals (study and drilling), plugins are not going to help.

Now when I look at re-peat's initial posting the key take-away on his Sonnox Claro tip is the helpful learning orientation it provides the new mixer. That is worth more than a sexy brandname plugin.

Edit: Glad to see OP reconsidering the bundle purchase.


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## Aero10 (Nov 29, 2021)

Junolab said:


> Perhaps someone already mentioned it, but if you're new ro mixing the biggest mistake you can do is to start buying plugins. You're idea is fine, but you're likely going to waste money and go in to the deep hole most goes into which is GAS (gear acquisition syndrome). Reapers stock plugins is more than fine to get you going and when you're ready for the next step because you're already aware of how a compressor works, what an eq can do and so on, there's tons of free and super cheap stuff out there already (properly many good suggestions in this thread).
> 
> You won't get better by buying plugins and you will run the risk of having an idea that a bad mix is because of the plugins. It won't be. At least not for the next 5 years of your journey. And your pick of a bought plugin is also going to be much better as youll know what you lack and what a trial will show you.
> 
> My 2 cent.





easyrider said:


> I agree, Dan Worrall….has done a few videos where he gets a perfect Null with Stock Reaper plugins and other higher cost third party plugins….
> 
> If you are starting out….You don’t need to complicate things….learn the stocks ones first and actually understand how they work in a mix.


Thank you both for this wonderful piece of advice. It's really valuable.
Though, honestly, I have probably fallen into the trap already (not talking only about TDR). And something tells me I would've either way, even if I saw your advice beforehand.

Okay, it's not end of the world, I suppose. And I can find comfort in thinking that supporting developers somehow benefits everyone in the business, consumers including.

That said, if I had another go now, I'd probably start out with stocks. But having a collection of plugins now, I guess I better start learning to use them from the start.

Edit: @b_elliott thank you as well, that was a helpful read. Not sure what to think of my purchase now :D But I suppose I'll get through, like everyone before me did.


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## b_elliott (Nov 29, 2021)

Aero10 said:


> ...Edit: @b_elliott thank you as well, that was a helpful read. Not sure what to think of my purchase now :D But I suppose I'll get through, like everyone before me did.


We all have been there so don't get too down on yourself. There are worse things in life. I look forward to hearing you knock out some good tracks in the near future. Cheers, Bill


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## Trash Panda (Nov 29, 2021)

I like the idea of buying plugins that help you learn how to _train_ your ears, such as the Focusright FAST Bundle, Izotope Neutron/Ozone, Sonible Smart series, etc.

Yes, they can be a crutch if you just rely on the AI algorithms to do the work for you and call it a day, and you can usually get half decent results that way. But if you analyze what they're doing, tweaking settings further to see what each one does and learning what you personally like/dislike hearing, it can really help with getting started.

That being said, if I were to start all over, I'd probably just buy the Fabfilter Mastering Bundle and get a few reverbs depending on what style of music I was making.


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## b_elliott (Nov 30, 2021)

Two useful resources while us novice mixers find our way.

After watching a few of the Sonnox Claro videos, I realized there is a way to translate some of its features to stock plugins.

1. For the basic mixing concepts and layout of what instruments vs which frequencies, watch Beato's How the Pros Use EQ.

2. Open a project ready for mixing. Open an instance of ReaEQ (or whichever your DAW stock eq).

3. Do the general "Produce" EQ settings for each track (refer to #1, or the Claro video demos which show the broad brush strokes: lows - mids - highs.

4. On the master bus: My 2-bus compressor (stock) Reacomp set to these specs:
Ratio: 1.3:1 - 2:1.
Attack: 50 ms.
Release: 150 ms.
Threshold: 1 - 2 dB gain reduction.
Auto gain make-up: on. (per this reference)

When I did steps 1 - 4 above I already surpassed yesterday's failed mix efforts using channel strips....

After further drilling/training, the tweak and audio masking-handling stages get worked into the workflow.

My point: stripping the mix down to stage one (Claro's "Produce") already helps a mix.

Cheers, Bill


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## SupremeFist (Nov 30, 2021)

Claro is absolutely worth the intro price imo. The auto-gain is amazing, that and the UI help you work fast and intuitively, and it sounds really natural and musical even when making big moves.


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## Aero10 (Nov 30, 2021)

@b_elliott Thanks for the suggestion and kinds words.

I had quite an internal discussion following these posts and my purchases. Didn't imagine venturing into plugins/production could lead to such a turmoil :D I'm quite glad it's a new day, honestly.

I used the time today to do an inventory. Situation isn't perhaps as bad, plugin-wise. I have too many instruments. But I suppose I will use many/most of them down the road. Some also being resalable anyway.
As for effects, I was too trigger happy with reverbs (R2, R4 & Nimbus) to add them to iLok, so (given the price vs license transfer fee), I am stuck with them.
I can still decide what to do with TDR bundle, since I haven't used the code yet.

My biggest pain is (despite being kindly advised) not going down the natural path of using stocks and gradually learning what they are, where and how they are used. At the same time training my ear and allowing time to show what else I need.
Instead I now feel stuck with my purchases, or at least them knocking from somewhere under the conscious hood (sunk cost fallacy sort of thing, maybe).

Oh well, I just had another monologue, and this one I suppose I had to put out 
Thanks again everyone, I'll let another day pass and try not trouble myself too much :D


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## b_elliott (Nov 30, 2021)

Aero10 said:


> @b_elliott Thanks for the suggestion and kinds words.


I have a similar situation: too many plugins. Heck I only discovered this morning I have the TDR Slick EQ freebie (downloaded a few years back but never used)! I explored it today out of curiosity (damn it is smooth; 10db boosts with 0 distortion); so; I now have a new Master FX chain as an alt choice on my master bus (Reacomp - TDR Slick EQ - Stealth Limiter).

I held off buying the Claro EQ (or Lindell Series 80 for now) based on my discovery the other day (i.e., I can't properly use what I already have). 

Earlier on I spent $$ (more than you did on TDR bundle) on the Ayaic bundle; but, am treating this as my incentive to buckle down and learn the craft once and for all. 
Best of luck on your explorations. 
Cheers, Bill


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## jcrosby (Nov 30, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Audiothing's plugins are almost free right now. I highly recommend Flip EQ and Fog Convolver.


Fog Convolver is awesome. It also does true stereo unlike the majority of convolution plugins.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 30, 2021)

Aero10 said:


> My biggest pain is (despite being kindly advised) not going down the natural path of using stocks and gradually learning what they are, where and how they are used. At the same time training my ear and allowing time to show what else I need.
> Instead I now feel stuck with my purchases, or at least them knocking from somewhere under the conscious hood (sunk cost fallacy sort of thing, maybe).


If it helps, I never spent a ton of time with stock plugins. 

I tried, but everything I mixed with them sounded like crap, even after applying things I learned on YouTube University (which is hit and miss).

Getting Neutron and Ozone and seeing what their mixing/mastering assistants did, learning WHY it sounded better, WHY they used the order they chose for the processing chain and continuing to educate/practice alongside of using these tools made huge progress possible. Still have a long way to go, but definitely much better than where I started several years ago.

The good news is these smart tools like Izotope, Focusrite FAST Bundle and some others that offer AI help to serve as a _starting_ point (not ending point) can be tried as a subscription. Once you feel more comfortable with things after using them, you can venture into the realm of character/color plugins and optimal UI/workflow for how your process works.


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## Tralen (Nov 30, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> Fog Convolver is awesome. It also does true stereo unlike the majority of convolution plugins.


And it has so many ways of shaping the result. It is my favourite way of matching different libraries.


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## b_elliott (Nov 30, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> If it helps, I never spent a ton of time with stock plugins.
> 
> I tried, but everything I mixed with them sounded like crap, even after applying things I learned on YouTube University (which is hit and miss).
> 
> ...


Interesting assessment.
I do have Ozone 8 and Neutron2 Advanced which I got several years ago from PB on a pricing error.

Honestly I don't know if the Izotope products are inferior to Sonnox as it too displays masking to show the mixer where there are issues. However, the problem for me is no basics; collapsing all three stages of mixing into one and going at it back-asswards = mixes that suck.
I like your approach -- you sound more disciplined than me.
Cheers, Bill


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## cedricm (Nov 30, 2021)

Aero10 said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I am new to music production. Since it's Black Friday season, it's as good a time as it gets to equip myself with tools for mixing and production.
> The idea is to go after cinematic/hybrid, orchestral and rock/metal music. With a bit of mixing of these genres at times as well.
> ...


More than one hits were recorded with stock plugins.
Don't overthink it and only purchase plugins if you feel like it.

If you really get to know your stock plugins, get to know what is / how to use a compressor, an EQ, a reverb, a limiter and so forth, you'll know more than most, and you'll be in a perfect position to decide which additional plugin will bring what to your toolbox.

Also know that the MSRP prices are outrageous, and you should never pay full price for plugins.
Not all plugins are created equal: some come with lifetime updates, other have new versions that are sold every n year. Finally, some come with an extortionate (if you ask me) yearly update plan with 0 guarantees on bug fixes or feature upgrades.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 30, 2021)

b_elliott said:


> Interesting assessment.
> I do have Ozone 8 and Neutron2 Advanced which I got several years ago from PB on a pricing error.
> 
> Honestly I don't know if the Izotope products are inferior to Sonnox as it too displays masking to show the mixer where there are issues. However, the problem for me is no basics; collapsing all three stages of mixing into one and going at it back-asswards = mixes that suck.
> ...


Here's a workflow that works well using Izotope products from a learning perspective.

Initial track level balancing:

Place an instance of Relay or Neutron on every track, throw Visual Mixer on the mix/master bus
Run the Mixing Assistant in Visual Relay to set levels for every track
Review the assigned track "roles" (vocals, bass, drums, other) and tweak where it gets the types wrong
Review the levels and adjust to taste for the 4 main types
Tweak levels further on individual instruments as desired
Track level mixing:

Insert Neutron on the track, find the busiest or loudest part of your piece and run the mix assistant choosing the type of processing you want (warm, neutral, bright) and level of processing intensity (low, medium, high)
Disable the first instance of Neutron and add a second one on the same track, choose a different type and/or intensity, toggle between them listening for differences and choose the one you like best (or follow the steps below for each one if you're patient)
Turn the entire instance of Neutron on and off in the context of the full mix and soloed
Review the Spectral Shaper, EQ, compressor and saturation settings and order of operation
Turn each processing unit on and off, listen for the difference
Turn each EQ/dynamic EQ band on and off, listen for the difference
Tweak settings as needed, making notes/mental notes of what you did/did not like about the AI mix for future reference (e.g. I like the 4.5k 2 dB broad boost on the horns to bring out more brassiness, the dynamic EQ at 250 really cleared up some muddiness)
Make sure to adjust output volume in each Neutron instance to match input levels so the "louder is better" effect doesn't color your judgment
Project Mastering:

Same process as Neutron, but only one instance of Ozone needed. Just make sure to choose the loudest portion of your piece for running the assistant.
Try it with Modern and Vintage styles, see which one jives better for your piece in your mind
Experiment with adding in other processors not included by the AI assistant and play with the presets and order of processors
Like anything else, it still takes practice, but I find this type of approach very helpful for hands-on learning.


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## b_elliott (Nov 30, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Here's a workflow that works well using Izotope products from a learning perspective.
> 
> Initial track level balancing:
> 
> ...


Wow! Thanks for this structured approach. 
I will make this my project for tomorrow (today in winding down just now). 
Son of a gun, you even have steps like a checklist.


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## Aero10 (Dec 1, 2021)

You have given me a pretty good idea of how much plugins affect (or not) the quality of a mix, especially when just starting out to learn the trade.

Now, though I didn't mean to open another can of worms, I can't help but ask:
How much do headphones (especially mixing ones) contribute to quality of mixing? Especially in the beginning stages (where I am at)?

Is it important for a beginner to start out with quality headphones which provide neutral feedback of the track/mix?


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## Junolab (Dec 1, 2021)

Aero10 said:


> You have given me a pretty good idea of how much plugins affect (or not) the quality of a mix, especially when just starting out to learn the trade.
> 
> Now, though I didn't mean to open another can of worms, I can't help but ask:
> How much do headphones (especially mixing ones) contribute to quality of mixing? Especially in the beginning stages (where I am at)?
> ...


If you got speakers in a treated room that's even better, but otherwise headphones are great. Just remember to try out your mixes on other speakers. Remember the goal is not to make your mix sound good in your headphones, but make a mix which sounds good in all speakers!

But in short; you cannot work on stuff you cannot hear. So if your option to listen to the sound aint great, then you're not really able to do a mix as you'll do it "blindly". Makes sense? But just start out with what you have and don't overthink it. Remember the goal is to make it sound good for all headphones/speakers, so mix, try it out elsewhere, go back to change, test again and so on. Then you'll learn what a "good" sound should be with your current gear


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## Aero10 (Dec 1, 2021)

Thanks @Junolab
I figured it might help if I described my current audio gear better...

I do not have a treated room or speakers/monitor. It is pretty much unfeasible for me, so I am not thinking in that direction at all.
All I have for now is a https://www.amazon.co.uk/Prestigio-PHS3-Headset-Foldable-USB/dp/B003VIVTR6 (Prestigio PHS3 headset) and Trust Vigor 2.1 PC speaker set.
Along with Audient ID4 mk2 audio interface.

I was thinking of headphones that might be suitable for both, mixing and listening pleasure in general. But it's probably hard to find a good compromise for both. So in that case I would prefer good neutral character headphones.

I am alright with starting with what I have, no urgent need to spend. But if my current gear would make it harder for me to learn and get good results, I am willing to make this investment.


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## Junolab (Dec 1, 2021)

Aero10 said:


> Thanks @Junolab
> I figured it might help if I described my current audio gear better...
> 
> I do not have a treated room or speakers/monitor. It is pretty much unfeasible for me, so I am not thinking in that direction at all.
> ...





Aero10 said:


> Thanks @Junolab
> I figured it might help if I described my current audio gear better...
> 
> I do not have a treated room or speakers/monitor. It is pretty much unfeasible for me, so I am not thinking in that direction at all.
> ...


To learn the basics it's fine for now. Then later I'd recommend a good pair of open headphones. In the end you'll get way way more out of a good pair of headphones than you will on spending money on plugins


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## Trash Panda (Dec 1, 2021)

Aero10 said:


> You have given me a pretty good idea of how much plugins affect (or not) the quality of a mix, especially when just starting out to learn the trade.
> 
> Now, though I didn't mean to open another can of worms, I can't help but ask:
> How much do headphones (especially mixing ones) contribute to quality of mixing? Especially in the beginning stages (where I am at)?
> ...


If you have/can pick up Izotope's Tonal Balance Control 2 and set it as the final plugin in your chain, you can use it to compare your frequency curve to their presets or a reference track.

End of the day it's best to make decisions with your ears even if the visuals tell you you're outside of the "boundaries", but I find this helps a lot in translating well across headphones, monitors, car mixes, etc.

Of course it's better to have quality headphones, a treated room with quality monitors, etc. But there are ways to make due without those until they become an option.


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## PeterN (Dec 1, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Here's a workflow that works well using Izotope products from a learning perspective.
> 
> Initial track level balancing:
> 
> ...


Ciao Panda, Is this workflow of yours, Neutron Advanced or Standard?


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## SupremeFist (Dec 3, 2021)

José Herring said:


> This is the Hornet EQ I have. It's on sale for about $10. It was a "no brainer" even when it was full price. https://www.hornetplugins.com/plugins/hornet-total-eq/


This one is really great: was just using it today for some surgical dynamic EQ on a couple of piano notes that over-resonated, and it was super-easy to dial in and sounded perfectly transparent. I just bought a bunch more plugins from Hornet, not because I really needed them, but I wanted to reward the developer by more than the silly cost of the EQ alone. (The White Sea Studios vid on it is good.)

In general I agree that between Hornet and and TDL there's little reason to spend more on these kinds of tools, unless one especially likes the workflow/UX/flavour of a more expensive alternative. (Which can be a good reason!)


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 3, 2021)

Don't buy multiples of most types of things at this point. You don't need 10 compressors, 5 EQs, etc. TDR are great, if a touch harder to use than something like Fabfilter. The Exponential/iZotope reverbs are fantastic, and $10 each is AMAZING, as these are not cheap sounding, but 100% professional grade.

I would also say that Valhalla Delay (or Echoboy) is a must-have plugin. Valhalla Vintage Verb? I actually uninstalled it recently, having replaced it with many others I like better. You already have some great reverbs - don't keep adding more yet until you get to know them. Also, you have to grab Valhalla Supermassive because it's free and fantastic.

If/when you think of more plugins, one approach I took was one digital plugin and one emulation or "analog" plugin per function (e.g., a digital compressor like Kotelnikov GE and an emulation like Kush Novatron). Speaking of Kush, their Omega saturation plugins are fantastic - especially when on sale. I use TWK all the time, as it has a warmth to it that isn't over the top.


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## proggermusic (Dec 3, 2021)

@vitocorleone123 – Interesting, I think you may be the first person I've heard of ever uninstalling VVV! I'm curious which verbs you're getting the most mileage out of... at this point, I think I've just been using VVV for so long that I know exactly how to get what I want out of it. Even though I love Valhalla Room, I keep going back to Vintage a lot of the time, just because I know where everything is.

Otherwise, I COMPLETELY agree with your post. Once you have some quality, serviceable gear (or virtual gear), it's time to get to work learning it and getting everything you can out of it. Options can be fun, and they can also be paralyzing. Learning how to use limited gear well is infinitely better than having ten of everything and not knowing how to use it.


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## b_elliott (Dec 3, 2021)

I think I might have stumbled across a quality freebie Acustic's Coral2 BaxterEQ. 

This afternoon I have been practicing hearing different EQ settings. 

I compared Neutron's EQ against Coral2 Baxter and noticed two things: distortion in the drum audio and a big difference how each eq handled it. 

To resolve distortion: Neuton needed a -8.6 dB reduction, whereas Coral2 only required -1dB on the low end. 

I have included a snippet which play a phrase with Coral2 then repeated on Neutron (both distorting) followed again with respective gain reductions = no distortion. [Note: mp3 format seems to spoil the distortion I heard in the beginning; was clearer on my system with headphones. Bummer.]

If anyone with better ears hears something of note, lemme know since I am midst learning this stuff. 
Best, Bill


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## b_elliott (Dec 3, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Ciao Panda, Is this workflow of yours, Neutron Advanced or Standard?


If my experience with this workflow helps: I am finding all the stuff inside Advanced Neutron3 no problems. Can't speak for Standard. 
I landed on this Izotope video which pretty much shows what Panda is laying out. They are using Neutron3.


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 3, 2021)

proggermusic said:


> @vitocorleone123 – Interesting, I think you may be the first person I've heard of ever uninstalling VVV! I'm curious which verbs you're getting the most mileage out of... at this point, I think I've just been using VVV for so long that I know exactly how to get what I want out of it. Even though I love Valhalla Room, I keep going back to Vintage a lot of the time, just because I know where everything is.
> 
> Otherwise, I COMPLETELY agree with your post. Once you have some quality, serviceable gear (or virtual gear), it's time to get to work learning it and getting everything you can out of it. Options can be fun, and they can also be paralyzing. Learning how to use limited gear well is infinitely better than having ten of everything and not knowing how to use it.


It just stopped sounding good to me compared to R4 or, now, TaiChi and Cinematic Rooms Pro. Or even the Korneff MIDIverb or LX480 Essentials. Always had to EQ a lot the low mod build up, too. VVV is “fine”, but that doesn’t cut it. I won’t sell it, but I did uninstall it.

Valhalla Delay, on the other hand, is my go to delay.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 5, 2021)

Aero10 said:


> Thank you very much to all of you for the answers! I am blown away with all the helpful tips I got and there is quite some homework ahead of me.
> 
> Kirchoff-EQ looks really nice.


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## MartinH. (Dec 5, 2021)

Aero10 said:


> How much do headphones (especially mixing ones) contribute to quality of mixing? Especially in the beginning stages (where I am at)?
> 
> Is it important for a beginner to start out with quality headphones which provide neutral feedback of the track/mix?



Imho Headphones matter a lot. Even for a beginner (maybe moreso for beginners because their speakers and room treatment are usually worse). I'd pick stock and free plugins with good headphones over crappy headphones with premium plugins. Ideally find a good middleground for both.

Just my personal opinion of course, I'm still a beginner myself.


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