# Director vs. Producer and I am in the middle of it.



## Christof (Jun 17, 2013)

Anyone familiar with this scenario?

I scored a 30 seconds clip for a big international company, I don't have to tell you how challenging it is to be limited to 30 seconds.
They sent me the clip with a quite awkward dub step style as temptrack, really terrible choice.

Anyway,I did the score today, the result is very good, the music works perfectly and fits to the short story.

I shared the result with the producer who forwarded it to the director.
Well, the producer loves my score, but the director seems to be very attached to his awful temptrack, he refuses my work and wants me to do some dubstep.

so I argued and explained why I have chosen my kind of style and mood, my arguments are very convincing I must say.

No way,the director still wants dubstep.

Isn't it my job as composer to write something original when they hire me?

Let's see how this discussion between the fronts develops.

Anyone here who had the same problem?

Christof


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## IvanP (Jun 17, 2013)

That happened to some times in a while. 

I remember, some years ago, putting music for a night show for a local TV. The director had a specific track in mind, a house/techno piece that he wanted to be present ALL THE TIME (the riff, the bass, everything...) 

The producer, knowing the perils of making a cover without paying the fee, diplomatically asked us (we were two composers attached) to try and get as close as possible. 

And so we did, we even hired a singer, but also tried to do something different and original...with that "flavor of the temp". 

He got really mad when he listened to it. He specifically said that he wanted us to copy it, that the producer had given him guarantee that we would do what he said. So we had to trash that test. 

We warned the consequences to the producer and we - honestly - did a very bad job. Yes, we did copy enough for the producer to get a lawsuit (we warned him though)

We got paid, and I, personally, never dared to register that music with my PRO - and it was a night show - :cry: 

In fact we asked not to be credited, or to feature in credits under an alias....something in the vein of "Fat lazy Whookers". 

Another example:

A director temps a trailer with my music from a documentary (from which I own intellectual rights, but not the masters). 
So I was asked, basically, to plagiarize myself. 
So I did, but changed it enough - at least to justify my own embarrassment - I updated the sonic palette (better synth programming and mix, different instrumentation and re-syncing things to meet the new picture -

Nope. He wanted the original because he felt it worked better to his editing. So all that work was thrown to the trash. I was already underpaid on this (under the promise of scoring the series if they got green light) and I felt as if I just lost money and effort on this. 

I did another version, pretty close to my original (that was an embarrassment indeed). Since I wasn't going to sue myself, the new master seemed different enough, but I wasn't happy at all. 

The producer thanked me and at least they seemed happy. 

BUT. I found on a crossed email a conservation from this director, in which he was, basically, ranting after paying for the final version, since he felt he was paying, basically, for an update of my own piece.... 

So. What I learned from this.

1) That directors that Temp so heavily are NEVER 100% happy. They want a specific piece but frustration comes when the producer tells him that nobody is paying for that.

2) That, in trying to get better, or more original, you may usually spend more time than you originally anticipated...something to think about if there's a temp. 

I, personally, would never feel at ease if I didn't try 1st to do a different version. But as important as that is to carefully listen to the direction you were given.

But, it's important to differentiate if your piece was "rejected" because of your music or because there was no other way out besides the temp. 
Whether you spend time and energy trying to go the different route or directly stick to the temp is up to you. 

But, in the end, it's also important to differentiate the media you are working for. If it's something commercially oriented, sticking to persuading the director that your work is more artistic can lead to to your own frustration or even being fired. I think there are some works where you are asked to be original and different, and others where you are contributing to business in a very specific way. 

How you chose to behave on each of them is, again, up to you. But I think it's important to be able to know exactly for what kind of media you are composing music for and, then, decide which attitude you are going to have.


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 17, 2013)

The big question - who of the two has the power? You answer to them, however right or wrong they are.

Easy enough to ask, not always easy to find out. If the producer likes your stuff, I'd explain to him / her that you can't really proceed while the director doesn't like it, and respectfully ask them to talk among themselves first to agree a common way forward. 100-1 you'll be asked to redo what you have with some dubstep elements to keep the director happy... quite possibly an impossible fudge that will end up pleasing no-one. Such is media composing!


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jun 17, 2013)

Advice: never take it upon yourself to disregard the direction given to you by your employer, or else you may find yourself in the exact situation you are in right now...


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## gsilbers (Jun 17, 2013)

Christof @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> Anyone familiar with this scenario?
> 
> I scored a 30 seconds clip for a big international company, I don't have to tell you how challenging it is to be limited to 30 seconds.
> They sent me the clip with a quite awkward dub step style as temptrack, really terrible choice.
> ...



just add dubstep to what you did. 

they only want the bass wobble here or there to make it seem relevent to the new generation. even though they say they want dubstep. 
the score for total recall has some of this. wobble used sparigly works good. 
now, full dubstep or complextro ala shrillex would take too much attention from anything else. 

so maybe compromise with some wobbles here or there, maybe use as fillers when going to a new measure/next idea/chorus etc. 
use 2 or 3 dubstep patches from massive to make up a cool new one by editing/reversing etc automating.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 17, 2013)

Christof @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> so I argued and explained why I have chosen my kind of style and mood



Bad move. Unless of course, "argued" was supposed to mean "discussed" whereas the director appeared to be open to discussion and wanted your input.



Christof @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> Isn't it my job as composer to write something original when they hire me?



No. It is your job to *FOLLOW THE TEMP *and do what is asked of you. It is NOT your job to take the temp in another direction and "do your own thing". That's not to say you can't have a discussion with the director, but at the end of the day, it is your job to deliver what is asked if you - period. And save for plagiarism, that is exactly what you need to do. I have seen A-List composers relieved of their duties for not following the temp.

As for "Director vs. Producer"... Have you read Jeff Rona's book? A good read for any composer trying to find his/her way in the TV/film world. I don't remember his exact words, but at some point in the book he said something along the lines of, "before you write a single note, make sure you know who you are answering to and who has the final say in regards to the score." Again, that's not verbatum, but the general idea.

Cheers.


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## Christof (Jun 18, 2013)

> Bad move. Unless of course, "argued" was supposed to mean "discussed" whereas the director appeared to be open to discussion and wanted your input.


Yes, I meant discussed, in other words I explained why my score works much better than the temp.And it does, I'm not the only one who can see/hear that.


> No. It is your job to FOLLOW THE TEMP and do what is asked of you. It is NOT your job to take the temp in another direction and "do your own thing". That's not to say you can't have a discussion with the director, but at the end of the day, it is your job to deliver what is asked if you - period. And save for plagiarism, that is exactly what you need to do. I have seen A-List composers relieved of their duties for not following the temp.


Well, actually the producer is the one who has the last word in this case, he was hired by the company to hire a director/studio, so the company gave the order to produce the clip, they are the client.



> As for "Director vs. Producer"... Have you read Jeff Rona's book? A good read for any composer trying to find his/her way in the TV/film world. I don't remember his exact words, but at some point in the book he said something along the lines of, "before you write a single note, make sure you know who you are answering to and who has the final say in regards to the score."


Yes, it was Jeff who sent a copy of his book to me, great lecture.
And yes, I was sure who has the final say, anyway, the director and his studio refuse to listen to me.
I suggested them to give my score a chance and work with it for some days or so.
No way.


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## cc64 (Jun 18, 2013)

Hi Christof,

who hired you? Did you win a pitch?

Maybe the director has a buddy or spouse that does dubstep.

I've had situations like this happen to me a few times. 

Once worked on a Quebec/France co-production and the French director/producer was making our lives hell, asking us to copy the temp wich was comprised of the best music the world can produce, he actually called us once and told us that our wave files weren't identical to the temp when he looked and compared them in Avid....From then on he wanted us to match the waveforms too! Client from hell anyone?

We got to a point where we had invested so much time(about 2 months) on the project that we could not back away, so we worked our butts off thinking that: The series being a very aesthetic documentary and already being sold to major European markets, we would recoup on SACEM GEMA etc...

A few months later i saw the doc on TV5 international only to find that they had replaced the score with the cheapest, one-fingered DX-7(and this was in 2003) score you can imagine, really lame score.

Turns out he redid the score himself with his spouse because he wanted to cash in on the back-end, but he needed to hire someone from Canada to score the picture to get the co-pro subsidies...

Sorry for the long story but just saying sometimes there's stuff behind the doors that you can't control...Knowing this you need to get a clear mandate from the person in charge(producer in your case) and the director needs to agree to that or not...But you can't fight this on your own. Even if you do the best score imaginable, if the director wants to plug is bro, you're wasting your time.

HTH YMMV

BTW Just want to say that i've had many many great experiences with French producers/directors, in fact this was the only bad experience with our French cousins o-[][]-o


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 18, 2013)

1. You dance with the one that brought you. Who hired you? Who do you have more potential to get future employment from, the producer or the director?

2. It is your job to give the client your best advice, but then do what she or he wants. If you cannot, you walk away,


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## IvanP (Jun 18, 2013)

Christof @ Tue Jun 18 said:


> Yes, I meant discussed, in other words I explained why my score works much better than the temp.And it does, I'm not the only one who can see/hear that.
> 
> 
> And yes, I was sure who has the final say, anyway, the director and his studio refuse to listen to me.
> ...



Man, these are not how things work... If I may, I think you might be too much overprotective over your work. 

This is not concert music, this is not open music, this is business, and they are paying you to deliver something. 

The only case were I managed not to listen to a temp, before being engaged, is where I suggested the director, who was open enough to listen, to let me create something without a temp. He accepted, he liked it, and got great reviews for the music. Still, if it hadn't been what he wanted, or no better than the temp, I would have needed to follow the instructions very carefully. 

Unless you are given free realm, it's on your own risk to deliver something different. 

BUT...to insist on your music being better? I'm sure it is, Christof, I have listened to your music and I'm sure it's absolutely brilliant, but there's a clear message when a director and the studio REFUSES to LISTEN to you anymore and you INSIST again. 

Sometimes a Spot or a movie DO NOT need the best music, but rather music that supports an idea in the best possible way. If the director has that in mind....insisting when they told you already no might not be the best way...

I remember a making of in which Shyamalayan and JNH were discussing a score...one of their 1st. The director felt that, in one cue, music needed more "mistery" or something like that. 

Check JNH's body language. He is clearly reluctant to change something, yet he manages to communicate effectively with the director and asks, even in a funny way (=relax some tension) if he wants 5% or only 3 % more of that mystery. 

All these communicating issues end up embedded in the way we communicate with our clients. And the 1st thing they want to see, before you show them how good you are, is how good you are at adapting to their needs, first. Being "artsy" should come when you've won their hearts, not before.


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## Christof (Jun 18, 2013)

The producer hired me, we can look back to a quite successful collaboration over the past years.

I even don't know the director personally, so to be honest I don't care so much about him because it is the producer who gives me potential employment in the future.

Yes, it is my job to give the client my best advice, but the director is not the client in this case, its the company(via the producer) who hired him, so actually I have nothing to loose except some annoying discussions and time delay.


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## Christof (Jun 18, 2013)

I have to add that I am quite new and fresh in this business compared to many of you, and to some of you guys this story is just peanuts, but it seems that I have to go through it collecting some experience.

I am just learning that a film/media composer also
has to be diplomatic with a good sense of business.

I am learning by doing, as always!


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 18, 2013)

Cristof, I'm sure this must be very frustrating for you. This is why I'm a happier camper working when not depending on a temp track, (concert area music). However, when this happens, the best thing you can do is not get too attached to your music. It's a decision you must take early on if you are hoping to succeed in that business.


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## IvanP (Jun 18, 2013)

Christof @ Tue Jun 18 said:


> The producer hired me, we can look back to a quite successful collaboration over the past years.
> 
> I even don't know the director personally, so to be honest I don't care so much about him because it is the producer who gives me potential employment in the future.
> 
> Yes, it is my job to give the client my best advice, but the director is not the client in this case, its the company(via the producer) who hired him, so actually I have nothing to loose except some annoying discussions and time delay.



I think you might be wrong in thinking that. 

My first example on my 1st post was the same case...I was answering to the producer, who hired me and with whom I've worked before... and the director, with whom I've only talked over the phone, was giving different orders. 

At the end, the producer is the client indeed...but, unless it's your best friend or will stand up for you against all odds, you are putting him in a difficult situation, in which he needs to choose...whether to listen to you or listen to the director. 

There might be a moment where this same producer would not want to repeat the same working situation, whether you are right or not. And that may lead to not calling you again. 

+1 to what Guy said. 

A fundamental element in this profession is the ability to detach easily from our music while doing the best possible creation at the same time. Nobody said it's easy. And, in this path, one needs to overcome a TON of elements not related to our musical background. I'm still failing a LOT of them :mrgreen:


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## Christof (Jun 18, 2013)

Well, I agree partially, in my case the producer will stand up for me against all odds, thats for sure.
Tricky situation anyway


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 18, 2013)

If this was me, I wouldn't of wasted a sec on this forum (for now), and done an alternative track to please the director. After that, you could still advocate for your good track, but you will have made everybody happy.


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## Christof (Jun 18, 2013)

Well, it's not a waist of time to be here 

Its just that they don't give it a try, so I remain stubborn.Thats me.


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 18, 2013)

Well, good luck.


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## Arbee (Jun 18, 2013)

I don't think it's accidental that many of the most successful film composers also appear to be among the most humble and grounded human beings....

Edit: please don't take any offence at that comment Christof, I wasn't aiming anything at you - just sharing my observation on the ways of the world.

.


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## Christof (Jun 18, 2013)

So what exactly do you mean by that, Arbee?


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## Arbee (Jun 18, 2013)

I mean the irony whereby the more invested we become in our own music emotionally, the more it can in fact work against us commercially when confronted by those who are not seeing things as we do. Many of the most successful folk I know have an attitude of "if they want s--- I write them s---". Not something that ever sat comfortably with me however (and led me to decide advertising/TV/film was no longer for me).

.


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## Rctec (Jun 19, 2013)

I keep relating the same thing: Music is not defensible in an intellectual argument. You can not talk someone into liking a piece of music, it's like telling someone why it would be a good idea to fall in love with a certain person. Music has to compellingly resonate with the images emotionally and intellectually - there has to be chemistry. Your director has to fall in love with everything new the music invokes and reveals in the images and the way the music affects the story as a whole. Style is a huge part of that. Baz Lurman's 'Romeo and Juliet' are the same story told very differently by Zefferelli. All directors are thankful if you improve and revolutionize their vision and concept with something they just couldn't imagine by themselves. That's your job. To shoot for something so irresistible that it convinces by it's sheer emotional rightness beyond the confines of style and taste. But make sure you're telling the same story as the director. 

Ultimately, you need to ask yourself if the producer will care more about a long-lasting relationship with his director or you. Even I would go for the director. There are far fewer directors than composers out there...

And secondly, what's the big deal? I'd love to write a great dub step piece. I love writing. Maybe a better one than the temp. But it's just writing music, and isn't that what you're supposed to love doing? Process is everything. 

I can't stand working with composers that are convinced that they have written a 'good' piece of music (they usually tell you that even before they play it for you, and you feel like a prat when you don't like it). By declaring that they are right - aesthetically and technically - they stop any possibility of new exploration and collaborative invention.
And the images you work with inevitably are your other voice in the piece, and your director your collaborative band member...

My less than two cents...

-H-


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## Lex (Jun 19, 2013)

Christof @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> Isn't it my job as composer to write something original when they hire me?
> 
> 
> Christof



Yes, but within the stylistic borders that have been chosen by the rest of the team.

Sometimes, when in this situation, I do 2 cues. One that follows the idea and the style of the temp but fits the picture and sounds better, and the other that disregards the temp and presents a "better" solution/idea. This way you are giving the team a choice and opportunity to make up their own mind. By disregarding the temp totally and just delivering that, you are effectively saying "what a fuk do you know?" to the director, and that message (considering the egos involved) will overpower any great idea that you might have presented. 

I don't necessarily agree that you should just shut the fuk up and do what you are told when you are hired, but you should be a team player if you are hired to b a part of the team.

ramble , ramble........

alex


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## munician (Jun 19, 2013)

This reminds me of what happened to me in the early nineties:

An some ad producers asked me to score a commercial a very specific way. I dit it and included a version of mine, completely different.

They were young and it was one of those "you'll get paid more if we sell the campaign" - deals. After that I hadn't heard from them anymore. There was never the slightest fight or misunderstanding.

A few months later I found out - on a tv show about commercials - that this spot had won a silver lion at the famous festival in Cannes. With the second version of the score which had been my own idea - and except for one little sfx there was no other sound than music in this spot.

They hadn't bothered to tell me, and when I called, it was like "yeah, well, we won, nice, isn't it..."

It shows I was right to do two versions.
It also shows I seriously helped them win the damn thing and I never heard from them again anymore, ever...


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## Markus S (Jun 19, 2013)

Well, in my humble experience it works like this :

- either you just shut up and do what you're told, to the best of your ability

- or you walk away, if your musical direction is not accepted.

An alternative is to offer two version, but then be open if they do not like it.

There are many ways to skin a cat, so there is no right way or no wrong way to put music under picture. The thing here is that the musical artistic direction is chosen by the director. He is not "more right" than you or the other way round, but he is in the position to chose.

Personally I usually go for the first option.

About good and bad music.

It seems to me that there are many on this forum who do believe that if music is liked by someone, it means the music is good. Or in other words, that a positive opinion on a musical piece says something about this piece of music, about its "true" value.

This is not the case : If a person likes a piece of music it says something about this person and not about the music. It says that this very person (and no one else) in this moment reacts in a certain way to a certain piece of music. Someone else might react totally differently and/or the same person might enjoy the music (or hate it) later in his life.


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## Christof (Jun 19, 2013)

> The thing here is that the musical artistic direction is chosen by the director. He is not "more right" than you or the other way round, but he is in the position to chose.


Well, not exactly in this case, as I mentioned before, the company (organization) orders the clip, the producer speaks for the company, if they like my score and think that it fits then they have the last word, it's their product in this case.(Actually it is a human campaign, not some advertising).
It's not like in a movie or TV series where the director is the main creative person.
If the director in my case would be the absolute boss I would shut up and come with something he wants, I usually do that without complaining, this happened to me from time to time, not funny but part of the job.I know all that.

Again, the problem here is that the director wants something different than the client, and the client doesn't want the temp of the director.
It's a tricky situation, not the usual composer/director relation.


> I can't stand working with composers that are convinced that they have written a 'good' piece of music (they usually tell you that even before they play it for you, and you feel like a prat when you don't like it). By declaring that they are right - aesthetically and technically - they stop any possibility of new exploration and collaborative invention.


I agree with that, and maybe you are putting me into this category of composers, but thats not my way of thinking, I always fear the reaction of other people before I play it to them, thats why I never tag my pieces with any comments before showing it to others.Just: here is my work, have a listen and tell me what you think.
In my starting post I wrote that the result of my work was very good because it works well with the clip and the producer and the client like it.

I also love writing, otherwise I would remain a cello player exclusively and concentrate only on that.
But you may be right, I should write some dub step now, just to give them another option.
Is there a book out there called 'dubstep for dummies'?


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## lumcas (Jun 19, 2013)

Here you go...

http://www.amazon.com/Dubstep-Production-For-Dummies/dp/B004BTOFZM (http://www.amazon.com/Dubstep-Productio ... B004BTOFZM)


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## yellowstudio (Jun 19, 2013)

Rctec @ Wed 19 Jun said:


> And secondly, what's the big deal? I'd love to write a great dub step piece. I love writing. Maybe a better one than the temp.



Christof, have you considered subcontracting Hans? As far as I can see, Hans gets to write some dubstep, you won't have to do it, and the director is going to have what they want. Written by the biggest name in the industry no less. Everybody wins :D 

so long
Andreas


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## Christof (Jun 19, 2013)

Sure!
Why didn't I think of that before!
I am sure Hans has nothing to do at the moment, I think he just waited for an austrian to give him the unique occasion to write some dub step.
I love this place


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## musophrenic (Jun 19, 2013)

yellowstudio @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Rctec @ Wed 19 Jun said:
> 
> 
> > And secondly, what's the big deal? I'd love to write a great dub step piece. I love writing. Maybe a better one than the temp.
> ...



I think that's the only pragmatic choice left, really. I mean, Nolan can wait, yeah? If you REALLY need to, I can fill in for you for Interstellar for a few days. 

On a serious note, Christof, maybe it'd be worth getting creative with 8Dio's Dubstep or Mick Gordon's library, supplemented with some of your awesome cello (maybe electric cello or something, even). Who knows, this could just be a fun opportunity to engage with something fresh and different  

Back on a fun note, this has to be the best dubstep track ever written:


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## Ganvai (Jun 19, 2013)

THIS is the best dubsteptrack ever written :D


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 19, 2013)

Christof @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Sure!
> Why didn't I think of that before!
> I am sure Hans has nothing to do at the moment, I think he just waited for an austrian to give him the unique occasion to write some dub step.
> I love this place



I tried, and everybody tried and failed, but when Hans talk, people listen.


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## IvanP (Jun 19, 2013)

+ 1 on Mick Gordon's library. 

I never did Dubstep in my life before. 

This was my 1st 30 min with the library :mrgreen: 

https://soundcloud.com/ivanp-1/dubstep- ... -funs-sake


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## germancomponist (Jun 19, 2013)

IvanP @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> + 1 on Mick Gordon's library.
> 
> I never did Dubstep in my life before.
> 
> ...



Ha ha, what a fun!


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## germancomponist (Jun 19, 2013)

Rctec @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> I keep relating the same thing: Music is not defensible in an intellectual argument. You can not talk someone into liking a piece of music, it's like telling someone why it would be a good idea to fall in love with a certain person. Music has to compellingly resonate with the images emotionally and intellectually - there has to be chemistry. Your director has to fall in love with everything new the music invokes and reveals in the images and the way the music affects the story as a whole. Style is a huge part of that. Baz Lurman's 'Romeo and Juliet' are the same story told very differently by Zefferelli. All directors are thankful if you improve and revolutionize their vision and concept with something they just couldn't imagine by themselves. That's your job. To shoot for something so irresistible that it convinces by it's sheer emotional rightness beyond the confines of style and taste. But make sure you're telling the same story as the director.
> 
> Ultimately, you need to ask yourself if the producer will care more about a long-lasting relationship with his director or you. Even I would go for the director. There are far fewer directors than composers out there...
> 
> ...



+1

Nothing to add! This is the truth!


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## Christof (Jun 19, 2013)

In general yes, but not in this specific case, but I explained that before.


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## Greg (Jun 21, 2013)

Well the beauty of dubstep is that it really ISN'T a genre in itself.. I mean, it's mostly about the synth designs & sometimes the rhythm but even that can be anything from downtempo chill to Drum and Bass style and still be considered 'dubstep'

Why not figure out a happy medium that does justice to you own composition as well as 'dubstep?'

Dubstep done tastefully can be extremely good.. Check out 'Burial'


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## Christof (Jul 4, 2013)

Okay, after some good discussions:
Dubstep


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## Christof (Oct 16, 2013)

Okay, finally dubstep lost and my first suggestion was used, here ist the clip (for those who are interested), Hunger is a Monster:

http://music4motion.org/m4m/video.html

and don't forget to sign the petition, 3 420 615 people have already signed.
Be the next.
http://endinghunger.org/en/educate.html


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## dgburns (Oct 17, 2013)

Rctec @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> I keep relating the same thing: Music is not defensible in an intellectual argument. You can not talk someone into liking a piece of music, it's like telling someone why it would be a good idea to fall in love with a certain person. Music has to compellingly resonate with the images emotionally and intellectually - there has to be chemistry. Your director has to fall in love with everything new the music invokes and reveals in the images and the way the music affects the story as a whole. Style is a huge part of that. Baz Lurman's 'Romeo and Juliet' are the same story told very differently by Zefferelli. All directors are thankful if you improve and revolutionize their vision and concept with something they just couldn't imagine by themselves. That's your job. To shoot for something so irresistible that it convinces by it's sheer emotional rightness beyond the confines of style and taste. But make sure you're telling the same story as the director.
> 
> Ultimately, you need to ask yourself if the producer will care more about a long-lasting relationship with his director or you. Even I would go for the director. There are far fewer directors than composers out there...
> 
> ...



boy,I gotta say,once again this is some fine words of wisdom.Just like Piet's dialog in the other thread where ppl were complaining about kids not being creative.

t seems to me that you only really listen to advice like this when there is a situation that you have found yourself in.Christof,you should really re- read this.
and fwiw,seems to me that dubstep is already the futuristic style that is so yesterday's news already,imho.


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## Christof (Oct 17, 2013)

dear dgburns, actually I did not understand what you mean, maybe you could explain again for Austrians


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## Arbee (Oct 17, 2013)

Christof @ Thu Oct 17 said:


> Okay, finally dubstep lost and my first suggestion was used, here ist the clip (for those who are interested), Hunger is a Monster:
> 
> http://music4motion.org/m4m/video.html


OK, I admit it, I was one of those thinking "Christof is heading for trouble with that attitude". BUT, after seeing the clips and listening to your music - wtf has any kind of dubstep got to do with those images. Nice work 8) 

.


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## Christof (Oct 17, 2013)

That's the point, the dubstep temptrack was awful, especially for the monster clip with the girl in the woods.
Anyway its just 30 seconds of music and I tried to do what I can, I am sure others with more experience can do better.


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## dgburns (Oct 17, 2013)

Christof @ Thu Oct 17 said:


> dear dgburns, actually I did not understand what you mean, maybe you could explain again for Austrians



just saying that the advice was well stated.Not saying it was related to your final approach or music written..Just good advice from a good source.

ps-gotta stop posting first thing on the morning.I think I may be half asleep and incoherent!I just can't resist the temptation while having my first(and only) big cup of coffee!I just don't have the time to post at other times of the day however.I'm not really talkative in person,please believe me  

good luck mate with your gig!

cheers,david


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Oct 17, 2013)

Rctec @ Wed 19 Jun said:


> I keep relating the same thing: Music is not defensible in an intellectual argument. You can not talk someone into liking a piece of music, it's like telling someone why it would be a good idea to fall in love with a certain person. Music has to compellingly resonate with the images emotionally and intellectually - there has to be chemistry. Your director has to fall in love with everything new the music invokes and reveals in the images and the way the music affects the story as a whole. Style is a huge part of that. Baz Lurman's 'Romeo and Juliet' are the same story told very differently by Zefferelli. All directors are thankful if you improve and revolutionize their vision and concept with something they just couldn't imagine by themselves. That's your job. To shoot for something so irresistible that it convinces by it's sheer emotional rightness beyond the confines of style and taste. But make sure you're telling the same story as the director.
> 
> Ultimately, you need to ask yourself if the producer will care more about a long-lasting relationship with his director or you. Even I would go for the director. There are far fewer directors than composers out there...
> 
> ...



Listen to this man


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## Christof (Oct 17, 2013)

> Listen to this man


Sorry, but slowly I am getting angry about people telling me I should listen to this man, but before you call me an arrogant idiot let me explain why:

I know who he is, I adore him as composer and he seems to be a wonderful guy,what he has to say is a goldmine for people like me, but in THIS specific case I will not "listen" to him because he didn't know the situation: I scored this clip, the result was very good (yes I dare to say that, doesn't mean that the music was very good!) but the director wanted some dubstep.
It didn't work at ALL, even if they would have hired the dubstep world champion.
After some discussions the director realized that my first version was the best choice.So no dubstep.

I don't post here because I have nothing to do, I am posting because I want some hints or some help by people who might have been in a similar situation.
So I also can ask people to read my posts carefully without prejudging.

Sorry, had a hard day


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## gsilbers (Oct 17, 2013)

Christof @ Thu Oct 17 said:


> > Listen to this man
> 
> 
> Sorry, but slowly I am getting angry about people telling me I should listen to this man, but before you call me an arrogant idiot let me explain why:
> ...



well, its interesting topic. does the composer tell the director things to sway him away from soemthing they know it will not work or just do the job he is being asked for? 

another thing imo, could be that what the director/clietn says might not be exactly what they mean. like dubstep might mean something different for him? 

from the clip you could easily added a dubsteppy synth/sfx when the wolf comes down on her. and maybe that was all the controvery about?


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## Christof (Oct 17, 2013)

no, they had a temptrack and wanted me to compose the same thing.I did it and it didn't work.


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## clarkcontrol (Oct 17, 2013)

I got fired off of a movie where I gave the director and producer exactly what they asked for and not what the movie needed (IMO). And this was after discussions where I tried to persuade them another approach might be more effective.

Still they were stubborn (and this was with NO temp so it wasn't because of temp love). So I gave them something that actually worked really well for what it was but once they decided they hated it they just went to someone else, having THEM write along a similar vein of my original approach lol. 

So you do what you can and hope for the best


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## midi_controller (Oct 17, 2013)

musophrenic @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Back on a fun note, this has to be the best dubstep track ever written:




The funny thing about it is I'm pretty sure that isn't even Dubstep. :D

Anyway, I think the moral of the story is write 2 versions, one that is closer to the temp and one that you believe works much better. Well, maybe not for everything, but for little projects like this one at least.

If the director / producer hates both of them, _then_ you have a problem.


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## autopilot (Oct 17, 2013)

Relevant to this argument - give it a minute - and some NSFW fruity language to boot. 

:twisted:


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## Hannes_F (Oct 17, 2013)

Christof, for me you did the right thing, and the result shows it. There are times where we need to stick to our gun instead of being sheepish. All is good.


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## dgburns (Oct 17, 2013)

Christof @ Thu Oct 17 said:


> no, they had a temptrack and wanted me to compose the same thing.I did it and it didn't work.



ok,I dig in here.hate me if you want to but here it is...

how can the temp be ok for them but not your treatment.How does that happen?

your version did not succeed for them.

I asked you to read the Hans post because what he is really saying(to me) is that the whole dance that you and the director makes is one you have control over.Hans Zimmer is a charmer par excellence.The people that work with him just love the journey.And it is a journey.It's not about what the outcome is,or happens to be at any given moment.You can be submitting cues that the people are not approving,but that is not really the important thing.The important thing is that you cultivate their confidence and respect.When you can do that,by whatever ways work for you(and them) you can begin to have the kind of back and forth that you simply can't without them having faith in you.
it is not about you being "right" and them "wrong"when a cue is rejected.No one likes to be in that situation.me included.It takes everything I have to turn my thinking around,especially when the whole exercise of the "first few cues" can be nothing more then the director finally deciding where he wants to go.Maybe you just had to go through the pain for him to find that out.I think when you reach that "ok,we know where we want to go" you should do your best to be accommadating.Realize,and I am being preachy here,that this is all about creating a longer term relationship with these people.This is your moment to show you are not a wussy,but really care for the project and their wellbeing as well.this is difficult [email protected] to do even for the best of composers.

I say all this not because I think you suck,quite the contrary,but if you have a difficult time scoring a indie type film(under 10mil say) or even for euro tv,how do you think you would do when they throw a 50 mil project on you that not only goes through the director and producers(there can be many),but also the slew of focus testing and pre screening,not to mention the ever present danger of getting thrown off the gig the minute the director hears of the fuss through a friend of his who looks at VI Control and sees you talking this way.

sorry,but I find you are simply seeking attention from others,not advice,or you would have had a "wow"moment the minute Hans posted his thoughts.

He's scored over a hundred films,maybe what he is saying deserves a second read.

A friend of mine is in the process of starting a new tv network.He comes down the hall into my suite at times and tells me how the sh&t hits the fan and he learns things he didn't even know how he screwed up.He says. "Dave,I'm me going to f&ck up more than you know",but he knows that making the mistake is a way of learning.He is going to be a rich man soon,and making mistakes doesn't faze him.Being ignorant to learning does.

who do you think I can sympathize with?I know this may be harsh,but come on.


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## jleckie (Oct 17, 2013)

Mr. Burns - that is some excellent advice and right on the mark. i could not agree more with you. 

I might add, If your going to make a go of this you have to as a composer show that you are there for them (the film makers) you have to make yourself invaluable to them. When these cats go into your studio they KNOW the pros and cons of what they've made. Most of them are not stupid. They know where they fucked up and where their strengths lay. You have to make their film better and you do that with caring about it, honesty, integrity, creativity and a POSITIVE attitude.

Your along for the ride baby and your part of their team so act like it. They will thank you for it later.


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## Christof (Oct 17, 2013)

Dear Dave, I will not hate you, but I hate the way you write because obviously you didn't get the point (or all this is a misunderstanding caused by my weak english skills).

I will explain my story again, maybe things clear up then because I love this place and I don't want to be misunderstood as an arrogant and ignorant guy who's only goal is not to listen to Hans Zimmer and only seeking for attention :

The United Nations asked me to score some short clips for their Ending Hunger campaign.
I was very excited because the animation studio and the director are excellent (academy award- short listed) and the voice overs are by the Fanning sisters.
Quite a big deal for a "no name" from little Austria.
In one of the clips the director asked me to compose the same kind of dubstep as in his temp track after I scored my own version which worked out pretty well.
This temp track didn't work at all, even the client (UN) hated it.
So I did my own dub step version (very close to the mockup) and the result was the same.
So I suggested to give my old version another try and see if it works, and it did, finally they used it in the final clip without talking about dubstep ever again.
If they really wanted dubstep they would have fired me and asked someone else, but they realized that this was the wrong direction and came back to my original idea.
So how can you say that my version did not succeed for them?
They are happy, I am happy, the client is happy and we had a good time and respectful collaboration.

I read what HZ wrote, and I love his knowledge and experience, I would never dare to ignore his words or thoughts, but (now switching to "arrogant" again) because it is HZ himself I am not saying "so true, amen" to everything he says.His statement earlier in this thread is very true and wise, but it doesn't match my situation.
Yes, he scored over a hundred films, and what he is saying deserves more than a second read, but sometimes I sense a slight HZ-church feeling around here, members stop being themselves when he chimes in, they even edit their posts after he replies.




> not to mention the ever present danger of getting thrown off the gig the minute the director hears of the fuss through a friend of his who looks at VI Control and sees you talking this way.


Well, actually and honestly this is the most offending thing I have read in a long time here.
Maybe you didn't mean it like that, but it sounds to me like a group of school kids saying:"be aware Christof, I'm going to tell the teacher what you did, then you will get serious problems and a bad grade"....
Come on, thats not the way to discuss here.

I will tell you something about myself: I am a professional trained cellist who discovered the ultimate joy of composing some years ago.I started to learn by doing, I learned by making mistakes, I learn by listening to others, I learn by stumbling and getting up again.
I KNOW that there are thousands of better composers out there, but I try to be the best Christof in the world because I love writing.
Everyone is seeking for attention, this is a natural human desire, so do I, but not in the way you think.HZ commented on my showreel some months ago, this lifted me up because at the time I was quite frustrated, and his comment motivated me to get better and better.
Hope this clears things up a bit, if you read carefully you will understand what I mean, even with my broken english.

Have an excellent day!

Christof


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## Markus S (Oct 18, 2013)

Just thanked the thread for making me discover I really dig Dubstep.


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## Christof (Oct 18, 2013)

Have fun!


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## KEnK (Oct 19, 2013)

Christof @ Thu Oct 17 said:


> ...sometimes I sense a slight HZ-church feeling around here, members stop being themselves when he chimes in, they even edit their posts after he replies...


Slight? 
It's f***ing ridiculous!
The brown nosing and fawning is sickening.
(To those horrified by that statement, 
I am addressing the nature of "fandom", not any individuals.)

To dgburns-
The HZ quote you referenced only applies to people who already have
a reputation and fairly high level of success.

To think that applies to every composer or situation is naive at best.
The business just doesn't work that way.

Most people like what I give them, 
and I usually don't have a creative or stylistic struggle.
But I just got another call from my own personal "Director From Hell".
Some people are simply not open to anything other than their temp tracks-
and are impossible to work with.

I guarantee that JW or HZ himself would not satisfy this guy,
if it were done "blindly".

Some people are simply complete turds.

k


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## Hannes_F (Oct 19, 2013)

It could work, yes, but only if you give 'the beast' some adoration, and/or celebrate the violence.

However hunger here is not presented as that sort of film-cliché enemy that needs to be established and almost worshipped as sort of a 'second hero' only in order to make the actual 'hero' look even more heroic (and justify his violence in turn). Hunger here is characterized as devious, incognizable, sneaky and perfidious.


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## Christof (Oct 19, 2013)

Well tekkentool, no more need of dubstep, but your track is pretty damned cool!!


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Oct 19, 2013)

KEnK @ Sun 20 Oct said:


> Christof @ Thu Oct 17 said:
> 
> 
> > ...sometimes I sense a slight HZ-church feeling around here, members stop being themselves when he chimes in, they even edit their posts after he replies...
> ...



Well I had no idea it was him until people started mentioning it. I simply thought he had good advice especially considering OP just ignored the direction given to him which is 101 things not to do in any business (In my opinion, sorry op) . 

And even so - who cares? HZ is successful, he is where many composers here want to be. Why wouldn't people look up to him?


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## germancomponist (Oct 19, 2013)

Christof @ Fri Oct 18 said:


> ... So I suggested to give my old version another try and see if it works, and it did, finally they used it in the final clip without talking about dubstep ever again.
> If they really wanted dubstep they would have fired me and asked someone else, but they realized that this was the wrong direction and came back to my original idea. ...
> 
> They are happy, I am happy, the client is happy and we had a good time and respectful collaboration.
> ...





Rctec @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> ... All directors are thankful if you improve and revolutionize their vision and concept with something they just couldn't imagine by themselves. That's your job. To shoot for something so irresistible that it convinces by it's sheer emotional rightness beyond the confines of style and taste. But make sure you're telling the same story as the director.



Oops, so what Hans said didn't match your situation? 

Didn't you shoot for your own composition?



> Yes, he scored over a hundred films, and what he is saying deserves more than a second read, but sometimes I sense a slight HZ-church feeling around here, members stop being themselves when he chimes in, they even edit their posts after he replies.
> Christof



Sorry to say this, but to me it looks like you just describe yourself... .

o-[][]-o o/~ o=<


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## Guy Rowland (Oct 19, 2013)

This looks awfully like one of those threads where people didn't notice all the dates and read all the posts.

Congrats Christof, glad it worked out.


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## Christof (Oct 19, 2013)

Thats the point.
Not everyone is reading carefully and understanding what I say, they are judging before understanding.

No, germancomponist, I am not describing myself, I don't need to pretend to be someone, I am who I am, with my strong and weak abilities.

Sad development of this thread I must say, almost like in school.
Transform your negative thoughts into music, it will be a masterpiece


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## germancomponist (Oct 19, 2013)

Christof @ Sat Oct 19 said:


> Thats the point.
> Not everyone is reading carefully and understanding what I say, they are judging before understanding.
> 
> No, germancomponist, I am not describing myself, I don't need to pretend to be someone, I am who I am, with my strong and weak abilities.
> ...



So I will write it in short words what I understood when I read your posts:

1. You was asked to write music for this short film. The temp was a dubstep.
2. You did no dubstep because you saw that a dubstep would not work with the picture.
3. The director asked you again for a dubstep... .
4. You did it and it worked not well, as you thought from the beginning on.
5. At least they used your own idea/composition and all are happy now.

All is good! Congratulations!

So what did I understand wrong? And this was exactly what Hans said: "Fight for your own idea/composition if you think it is better than the temp. ... In the end the directors will be thankful.... ."

And: I have no negative thoughts!


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## Arbee (Oct 19, 2013)

tekkentool @ Sun Oct 20 said:


> Arbee @ Thu Oct 17 said:
> 
> 
> > wtf has any kind of dubstep got to do with those images.
> ...


I watched that clip and, in that context though, the images and content are so very, very dark I think the dubstep approach lifts the mood slightly once the choir has positioned it at the start. I really enjoyed it. "Epic" music thoughout would make it very hard to watch IMO. While they're both animated clips, I think the difference in tone and content warrants a different musical approach and, for me subjectively, Christof hit the nail on the head with the finished product.

In regard to Christof's position I really think it's one of those unique "you really had to be there" situations and the general advice in this thread still stands. I believe in "sell not tell" when there are differences, which is probably just another way of saying "HZ charm". Nothing wrong with that, it's how the world works. 

.


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## Christof (Oct 19, 2013)

> Sorry to say this, but to me it looks like you just describe yourself... .



This is what I meant, germancomponist.


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## Markus S (Oct 20, 2013)

Christof @ Sat Oct 19 said:


> Sad development of this thread I must say, almost like in school.



Once you post your music (situation) in a topic like this, you will have to accept all comments and POVs in here, since it is not under your control anymore. Personally I find the whole topic informative and entertaining. 

Now to the video.

I think you did a good job here. It works, but in my opinion there is more to the visuals than a scary horror vid - the images are beautiful, full of poetry, waving color tales and an almost science fictional modern design. All is dream-like, color tales waving, a lonely wood in winter. It's not all scary and horrific, it is pure poetry. You scored it like a primary, classical horror thing, but there are more layers, the clip is much denser.

A more poetic, emotional music (especially in the beginning and end) with electronic elements (the clip has a very modern visual design) would have worked great here, I think. Maybe not 100% electronic, but it would have been awesome to introduce some dub step wobble or some industrial elements with the wolf. Rather than the endlessly heard ethnic percussion and the endlessly heard cliché slide up of the strings.

So where is the poetry, where is the modern design element? How personal is this work? Can you copy & paste it under any other trailer?

On the positive side, I totally agree with the way you structured the piece (phase still in the beginning, rise, brutal stop), also yes, the scary/stress elements is there and you translated this well.

As an example (not saying you should have done the same thing) they have this "trip hop" style, in this trailer of Red Riding Hood, of course you have to think about it, when seeing your video, kind of cool musical choice I thought : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM8V3cHdSC4


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## Christof (Oct 20, 2013)

Thank you Markus for your detailed review, I agree and I have choose one of a few billion possibilities, including endlessly heard cliches.
The hardest part for me was the restriction to 30 seconds, real challenge.


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## syashdown (Oct 21, 2013)

Markus S @ Sun Oct 20 said:


> Christof @ Sat Oct 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Sad development of this thread I must say, almost like in school.
> ...



+1

I agree with a lot of this. I think Christof has executed the style that he wanted excellently but when looking at the visual style of the film it does look like a missed opportunity to bring something with more edge and poetry. 

This is where getting very stubborn about ones own music can cause you to miss out on the magic of collaboration. Maybe there is a possibility that if it hadn't become such a composer vs director situation, something more special could of happened. Its very easy to choose not to try and understand the vision of the director and find a way to integrate both your and their ideals. I think this often happens because we find the idea of integrating their intentions threatening to creating something we feel more comfortable doing. 

In these situations I would try and see what quality or emotion the director is looking for with the use of a dubstep temp track rather than jump straight on my high horse with "the temp is crap". If you look past the obvious fact that it is dubstep, what is it he wanted to achieve with temp he had chosen, and how can you achieve this while bring your own voice to it? I get the impression that the he wanted to create something that had a more distinct quality with a cutting edge attitude, as well as give the wolf a more visceral and violent feel. The shame in it all is that I'm sure you could have found a way to do this and show the director that you are a great collaborator for further projects. Also, you may have also come up with something entirely new and original in your musical world, something outside the comfort zone of what you know how to do. To me this is where the magic of working to picture lies; the collaboration between yourself, the picture and the directors vision, from which something new and unknown can arise. 

Just my thoughts...


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## rickholets (Oct 21, 2013)

syashdown @ Mon Oct 21 said:


> This is where getting very stubborn about ones own music can cause you to miss out on the magic of collaboration. Maybe there is a possibility that if it hadn't become such a composer vs director situation, something more special could of happened. Its very easy to choose not to try and understand the vision of the director and find a way to integrate both your and their ideals. I think this often happens because we find the idea of integrating their intentions threatening to creating something we feel more comfortable doing.



This. Though it is painful at the time, I have never regretted letting a director push a little harder for music that fits their vision. Even if their ideas don't work out--which does happen sometimes--I inevitably end up with a piece that is more refined and we leave much happier with what has been created. The extra scrutiny assists in reaching close to perfection.

Or, as the saying goes, "You'll never know how fast you can run until you are chased by a bear."


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## Christof (Oct 21, 2013)

> I agree with a lot of this. I think Christof has executed the style that he wanted excellently but when looking at the visual style of the film it does look like a missed opportunity to bring something with more edge and poetry.



Actually I had some very poetic and subtle soft elements at the beginning where we see the innocent girl in the snow, but they didn't want it.

You see, I did what I was told, I am a good boy 

Cheers!


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## syashdown (Oct 22, 2013)




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