# Orchestral composition without midi keyboard?



## LordLarsa (Oct 18, 2018)

Hello,

So I won't be home during a long time and I just have my computer with me with Reason as DAW and Hollywood Orchestra. I miss producing music but I'm stuck since months already because I don't have keyboard under the hand (I have 2 at home but can't go home for reasons). I wanted to know if it's possible to compose orchestral music without keyboard without getting bad result? I know keyboard is important for the velocity, and all that. It's for why I refused the idea to play music without any keyboard, but now I'm wondering, because it's a bit complicated at the moment (life stuff) and I miss composing. So my question is: is it a bad idea? Is there a way to get a good sound or velocity subtilities without playing on a keyboard but just on the computer?

Thank you for your answer!


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## R. Soul (Oct 18, 2018)

I couldn't compose without a keyboard personally.
But you can get really small keyboards that will fit in a normal backpack.
For example, Akai lpk25 is only around 10 x 30 x 3 cm, and while it's not ideal for creating a piano sonata, it's perfectly fine for writing with one hand.


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## Michael Stibor (Oct 18, 2018)

LordLarsa said:


> I wanted to know if it's possible to compose orchestral music without keyboard without getting bad result?



An orchestral composition without a keyboard? I wouldn't risk it. I heard Beethoven tried that once, and gave up two bars in.


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## AMAROK13 (Oct 18, 2018)

Here may be a solution, far from ideal, but without keyboard. Page 222

http://cdn.propellerheads.se/Reason..._filename=Reason Essentials Mode d'emploi.pdf


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## Chr!s (Oct 18, 2018)

It's more than possible.



You'd just have to click in the notes on the piano roll.


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## Kony (Oct 18, 2018)

I did this many years ago - using Reason and just a mouse to draw in the notes. It's possible but time-consuming....


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## TheSigillite (Oct 18, 2018)

Some DAW's can use your laptop or desktop keyboard as a midi keyboard. I do this at work since I load up Reaper during lunch and just doodle around. Helpful in a pinch but definitely not a replacement.


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## nas (Oct 19, 2018)

You can certainly _compose_ without a keyboard, but if you want to have a realistic sounding mockup that is well recorded, programmed, and mixed then I think it will be rather time consuming. Are you in an area where you can buy a small portable keyboard for cheap? There are some decent options on the market now for small portable rigs.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 19, 2018)

It's entirely possible to produce very musical results without even touching a MIDI keyboard. Having been musically socialized on the guitar, my keyboard playing is deplorable, so I'm used to clicking and drawing the bulk of my MIDI events by mouse. I mostly come up with musical ideas in my head and on paper anyway. It absolutely works. The clicking and fumbling is goddamn boring though, which is why I plan to take some lessons and brush up my keyboard chops at some point as soon as my schedule allows for it.


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## Olivier1024 (Oct 19, 2018)

Have a look here
http://www.musicdevelopments.com/
http://www.musicdevelopments.com/wiki/doku.php?id=en:overview:basics

You need the Full Edition to manage articulation (and need to create your custom file to manage articulation to your taste http://www.musicdevelopments.com/wiki/doku.php?id=en:overview:articulations).
It's not the easiest and beautiful software to begin with, but it can help you.


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## LordLarsa (Oct 19, 2018)

Thanks you so much for your answers. I'm looking at all this. I'm often moving to different places, so maybe I should consider to buy a mini-keyboard like https://www.thomann.de/fr/akai_lpk_25.htm
That I can put into my luggage when I move.


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## nas (Oct 19, 2018)

LordLarsa said:


> Thanks you so much for your answers. I'm looking at all this. I'm often moving to different places, so maybe I should consider to buy a mini-keyboard like https://www.thomann.de/fr/akai_lpk_25.htm
> That I can put into my luggage when I move.



Yeah something like that is cool. I really like the Korg Micro air 37 key. The feel of the keyboard is actually quit nice (although the actual keys are not full sized). You can run either through USB or wireless Bluetooth. It's small enough to carry but has enough range, and has a pitch and mod wheel which is very useful. They do also have a 25 key option as well.

https://www.thomannmusic.com/korg_microkey_37_mkii.htm?ref=search_prv_16


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## Cinebient (Oct 19, 2018)

Sure it´s possible but of course it could mean much more work after performance.
Depending on what you use you also can use even iPhones as midi input (even with MPE via 3D touch). 
It also really depends on the tools. For me i find that some tools works best with a normal midi keyboard, some even with my normal macbook keyboard as midi input, for some i prefer an iPad/iPhone as midi input or my Seaboard Rise. 
Of course there are no rules....people just use what they are used to. Just try it out and see if you like it. The short answer (but i´m no expert like many others here) i would say a big yes.


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## puremusic (Oct 19, 2018)

Some people prefer to compose note by note, setting everything manually and they get very fine results. I am not one of these people, but really I just haven't tried yet because I haven't been forced to.


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## Loïc D (Oct 20, 2018)

I’d suggest you to get a small keyboard, like the small Akai you mentioned.
You’ll find plenty of them in other brands too : CME, Korg, Arturia, etc.
I got a Akai MPK25mk2 with pads & knobs that follows me everywhere.


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## averystemmler (Oct 22, 2018)

It's absolutely feasible. I worked for years with this preconception that drawn in notes were somehow inferior, but recently I've found myself getting better results plunking down notes and intelligently altering/randomizing them afterwards. Note position is a fairly straightforward thing when working with samples - each one of which is a tiny performance in itself. The dynamic (cc or velocity) data is where you really make a piece of music out of it. In my option, of course.

I do find it's very helpful to have some kind of controller though, at the very least for auditioning sounds or experimenting/pitch referencing. I bought a Keith McMillen k-board for my mobile rig, and it's perfect. Tiny, durable, and has just enough control. I bought another for my studio and I've been pairing the two so successfully that my full sized keyboards are all leaning up against the wall for the time being.

Physically modeled (SWAM, etc) instruments and some synths are an entirely different creature, though. Having a computer arrange tiny recordings of a cello is one thing, but having a computer play the cello is another.


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## jhughes (Oct 22, 2018)

You can certainly composer orchestral music without a keyboard. You can do that with nothing but paper and pencil. All you need is a Melody and knowledge of harmony/voicing.
This is why you learn how to do this because what if you don't have equipment when you want to compose.
If you are talking about a mock-up, you can do that too. I don't do Midi much but drawing always led to better results for me. Live playing never had perfect velocities or note values for me anyways. I basically quantize to grid and use tempo map. It is going to depend on what you are trying to do.


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## jamieboo (Oct 27, 2018)

I don't like using a keyboard!
I know a certain immediate vivacity is lost by not playing things in, but I find that if my hands are over a keyboard then my composition suffers because it falls into the patterns of what my hands are comfortable with rather than the boundless possibilities in my silly head!
So I enter notes by mouse in Cubase Score Editor. Ridiculous.


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## InLight-Tone (Oct 27, 2018)

jamieboo said:


> I don't like using a keyboard!
> I know a certain immediate vivacity is lost by not playing things in, but I find that if my hands are over a keyboard then my composition suffers because it falls into the patterns of what my hands are comfortable with rather than the boundless possibilities in my silly head!
> So I enter notes by mouse in Cubase Score Editor. Ridiculous.


There's certainly a great deal of Truth in what you said. How long does it take you to write say a 2 minute cue?


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## danbo (Oct 27, 2018)

Use paper and pencil, or ink if you're feeling brave. A computer/keyboard (piano or otherwise) is to me performance, not composition, other than noodling about to get an idea of a tune or spot check my inner ear. Does wonders for composing in my experience.


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## jamieboo (Oct 27, 2018)

Ha! Anywhere from a couple of days to a few months!


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## BVMusic (Sep 17, 2021)

Was looking to see the thoughts from other artists, about making music without a keyboard after I finished my new music using only my mac laptop touching pad and my Logic Pro X piano roll! The nice part is that making music this way, is using minimal equipment, is very mobile, and in a sense not constrained with a keyboard. The other part which I noticed is that I felt more detailed and creative in the piano roll with each note, and therefore can make a lot of difference when changing notes!
Here is my track in question using only the piano roll! -


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## mybadmemory (Sep 17, 2021)

Check out Anne Dern om YT. She has three videos where she makes fantastic sounding LOTR mock-ups completely by programming.


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## dhmusic (Sep 17, 2021)

BVMusic said:


> Was looking to see the thoughts from other artists, about making music without a keyboard after I finished my new music using only my mac laptop touching pad and my Logic Pro X piano roll! The nice part is that making music this way, is using minimal equipment, is very mobile, and in a sense not constrained with a keyboard. The other part which I noticed is that I felt more detailed and creative in the piano roll with each note, and therefore can make a lot of difference when changing notes!
> Here is my track in question using only the piano roll! -



Nice work! I definitely vibe with this approach.

I use a keyboard for referencing notes and ideas mostly. It might not be for everyone, but I find recording live very unhelpful and distracting. My approach is more like keyframe animation and digital sculpture.

Really my keyboard/live key-switching skills kinda blow. No reason to let performance ruin my music game though. I think I make up for it by building familiarity with my template and adapting it with each piece I work on.


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## ism (Sep 17, 2021)

Michael Stibor said:


> An orchestral composition without a keyboard? I wouldn't risk it. I heard Beethoven tried that once, and gave up two bars in.


On the other hand, I’ve heard that Rossini was so lazy that when he dropped a page of score on the floor, he would just rewrite the whole thing rather the expend the energy retrieve it, never mind going through all the hassle of getting out of bed to find a keyboard.


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## musicalweather (Sep 17, 2021)

+1 for the Akai 25 key keyboard. I carry it around a lot in my job as piano instructor -- very portable. The https://www.amazon.com/Line-Mobile-99-072-0505-25-Key-Controller/dp/B0079E46S2 (Line 6 Mobile Keys 25 key keyboard) is also very good -- it's got full sized keys, pitch and mod wheels, and volume and pan control. But it's a bit bulkier and heavier, and definitely not as portable as the Akai, but I'd still recommend it.

It's interesting to hear about everyone's work processes here. I wouldn't give up any of my keyboards, large or small, in my composing process, but I may try a short composition just using the piano roll or step recording just to see how it might influence my composing. You can see Reason's version of step recording here.


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## BVMusic (Sep 17, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> Nice work! I definitely vibe with this approach.
> 
> I use a keyboard for referencing notes and ideas mostly. It might not be for everyone, but I find recording live very unhelpful and distracting. My approach is more like keyframe animation and sculpture.
> 
> Really my keyboard/live key-switching skills kinda blow. No reason to let performance ruin my music game though. I think I make up for it by building familiarity with my template and adapting it with each piece I work on.


I look forward to hear your music with the approach you are explaining here, and thanks for your appreciative words! - Brian


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## dhmusic (Sep 17, 2021)

BVMusic said:


> I look forward to hear your music with the approach you are explaining here, and thanks for your appreciative words! - Brian


Thanks! I'd love to hear what you think


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## BVMusic (Sep 17, 2021)

musicalweather said:


> +1 for the Akai 25 key keyboard. I carry it around a lot in my job as piano instructor -- very portable. The https://www.amazon.com/Line-Mobile-99-072-0505-25-Key-Controller/dp/B0079E46S2 (Line 6 Mobile Keys 25 key keyboard) is also very good -- it's got full sized keys, pitch and mod wheels, and volume and pan control. But it's a bit bulkier and heavier, and definitely not as portable as the Akai, but I'd still recommend it.
> 
> It's interesting to hear about everyone's work processes here. I wouldn't give up any of my keyboards, large or small, in my composing process, but I may try a short composition just using the piano roll or step recording just to see how it might influence my composing. You can see Reason's version of step recording here.


In fact, despite my latest project on making music in the piano roll with only my MacBook, I am thinking to connect my Keystep controller again, but will combinate it with piano roll composing as I did lately. Perhaps my idea is to enter musical ideas notes faster and then spend time in the piano roll again with what I have there. But then again, one might come up with totally new musical ideas in the piano roll vs using the keyboard first. I will see!


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## BVMusic (Sep 17, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> Thanks! I'd love to hear what you think


Sure, I also recommend not to rush in releasing music, can be tempting, but leave sometime, like days or have a break, then return, as from my experience you can come up with a new idea for those musical notes, making the whole composition to sound even nicer!


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## Gil (Sep 17, 2021)

Hello,
StaffPad is working quite well:




Regards,
Gil.


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## dhmusic (Sep 17, 2021)

BVMusic said:


> Sure, I also recommend not to rush in releasing music, can be tempting, but leave sometime, like days or have a break, then return, as from my experience you can come up with a new idea for those musical notes, making the whole composition to sound even nicer!


Haha do I seem like I'm rushing? Or do you just mean in general


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## lychee (Sep 17, 2021)

As a composer exclusively via the piano roll (I have always been lazy to learn an instrument), I can say that it is the best way to have a grandiose final result. Why ?
Because everything is carefully played note by note down to the smallest detail, no need to be a virtuoso.
Indeed, and it was said above, the downside is time, and you need to have a lot of it.
As proof that we can do great things by this method, here is a video of an orchestral music made by Ben E, and which I knew later that he is a composer via piano roll, like me:


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## PedroPH (Sep 17, 2021)

I don't use a keyboard either. I enter note by note. But I use Renoise, which is a DAW based on trackers, so it uses a different notation.


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## Living Fossil (Sep 17, 2021)

lychee said:


> As a composer exclusively via the piano roll (I have always been lazy to learn an instrument), I can say that it is the best way to have a grandiose final result. Why ?
> Because everything is carefully played note by note down to the smallest detail, no need to be a virtuoso.


Well, so you can say it's the best way_ for you_. 
Just don't generalize... 
There is no law that prohibits you from editing every slight detail when you recorded with a keyboard...

Different approaches work for different people.

P.S. what i have to hear yet with mockups done with step input (i.e. without keyboard) are convincing _tempo rubato_ phrases. In theory it would be possible of course, but in reality i haven't heard it yet.
Of course, this might be not important for some people and for some music, for others it is.


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## lychee (Sep 17, 2021)

PedroPH said:


> I don't use a keyboard either. I enter note by note. But I use Renoise, which is a DAW based on trackers, so it uses a different notation.


I started music with trackers, that's certainly why I still compose with a mouse today.



Living Fossil said:


> Well, so you can say it's the best way_ for you_.
> Just don't generalize...
> There is no law that prohibits you from editing every slight detail when you recorded with a keyboard...


I don't pretend to say that my method is the best, but I think from my personal opinion that it is.
I guess all the keyboard players here have at one point or another tucked into the piano roll to correct previously recorded items?
Well with the "Pianorollists" the whole process is drawn note by note, no worries about clumsy hands.


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## dhmusic (Sep 17, 2021)

Living Fossil said:


> P.S. what i have to hear yet with mockups done with step input (i.e. without keyboard) are convincing _tempo rubato_ phrases. In theory it would be possible of course, but in reality i haven't heard it yet.
> Of course, this might be not important for some people and for some music, for others it is.


Yeah I agree. This has been on my mind a bit. I've been experimenting with a few approaches. Extensive tempo mapping will go a long way but there are def a few layers of nuance beyond that left to iron out.

What are some of your favorite examples that would prove challenging to do virtually?


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## Living Fossil (Sep 17, 2021)

lychee said:


> I don't pretend to say that my method is the best, but I think from my personal opinion that it is.
> I guess all the keyboard players here have at one point or another tucked into the piano roll to correct previously recorded items?


That's what i meant with the sentence:
_There is no law that prohibits you from editing every slight detail when you recorded with a keyboard..._
which you quoted but probably didn't were aware of. 
However, the more relevant problem is – as mentioned – the tempo rubato.
In case you're unfamiliar with the term, Tempo rubato means that a group of notes – a musical phrase – has an inner logic of ongoing deviations from an exact metric grid. [the whole tempo rubato is much more complex, but this explanation serves just to give an idea...]
While it's easy to place single notes earlier or later, i have yet to see how someone achieves this for musical phrases in a way as somebody would perform it guided by muscle memory.


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## Living Fossil (Sep 17, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> What are some of your favorite examples that would prove challenging to do virtually?


E.g. Liszt's music completely relies on it.
Fast note groups (ornaments) in Chopin's music.
In Mozart's piano music it is usual that the left hand plays the rhythmic values much more exact whereas the right hand often is massively free in executing the rhythmic values. (there's tons of literature about it...) To make these lines really sing requires tons of deviations which all are interwoven with each other.
Etc.

The really difficult part does indeed rely to soloistic melodic lines.
There are other typical deviations that can easily be done with the tempo editor.


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## dhmusic (Sep 17, 2021)

Living Fossil said:


> E.g. Liszt's music completely relies on it.
> Fast note groups (ornaments) in Chopin's music.
> In Mozart's piano music it is usual that the left hand plays the rhythmic values much more exact whereas the right hand often is massively free in executing the rhythmic values. (there's tons of literature about it...) To make these lines really sing requires tons of deviations which all are interwoven with each other.
> Etc.
> ...


Is la mer a piece that uses Rubato phrasing or is that technically something else? I have that on my list of mockup goals. I like that you're kind of forced to stretch and abstract your libraries to achieve the necessary textures.


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## Living Fossil (Sep 17, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> Is la mer a piece that uses Rubato phrasing or is that technically something else? I have that on my list of mockup goals.


For tempo rubato i would rather take a look a soloistic piano literature (or literature for a solo instrument, like flute or violin etc.)
But la mer is for sure a fantastic piece to mockup; its instrumentation is phenomenal...


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## DCPImages (Sep 17, 2021)

Notation programs, such as Dorico, are designed for keyboard input (it also helps to have a portable midi keyboard to enter notes but this is not essential). Some people find this approach a little daunting as piano rolls in DAWS look more intuitive. For me, a good way to think about software like Dorico is like a writer working and editing on a good word processor. If it helps, think of the music notation as simply midi in disguise. Indeed, Dorico gives you a midi piano roll (including cc automation) for when you would prefer to do your work in that format. There is also a timeline and input recording for those who prefer more rubato performances. I was watching a video with Alan Syvestri (great film composer) who says that he is not a good keyboardist and finds dorico great for his film work. (BTW, I don’t work for Dorico but I have been looking into it as there is a sale on at the moment.)


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## muziksculp (Sep 17, 2021)

There are some Mouse-Ninja composers that I have watched compose a whole orchestral score, just by clicking in the notes, and CC data with their mouse. 

So, It's possible, but you need to be super fast using the mouse in your DAW, a Mouse-Ninja


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## InLight-Tone (Sep 17, 2021)

Anže Rozman who does courses for Evenant, uses nothing but the mouse and is wicked fast and his music is good to boot.


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