# 8dio's V8P.me



## valexnerfarious (May 18, 2013)

Haven't heard much from it in awhile...when will be releasing libraries...any news at all?


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## Ed (May 18, 2013)

Yea thought we'd hear something by now


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## Folmann (May 18, 2013)

Good question, yet tricky to answer. The Eighth Wonder (8W) is in beta, however we are taking our time, since the ambition is to create the best sounding big orchestra library ever done. We went back and recorded 50% more material for the library and it is the single best sample library I have ever used, but please note the library will NOT be released to the general public.

8W was designed on feedback from the pro-community in regards to having unique and exclusive content, which is what the V8P series is all about. The expenses involved in deep-sampling 100 strings, 60 brasses and 20 percussionists are mind staggering - and that is only counting what we have announced to this point.


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## Ed (May 18, 2013)

Sounds interesting but I think I'll be sad face when more information comes out


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## RasmusFors (May 18, 2013)

Isn't it quite gimmicky to have a such large orchestra. I mean 60 brass, really ?


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## 667 (May 18, 2013)

Is it invite only or will there be application process?

Not that it matters to me since I won't get in but that's ok it sounds expensive!


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## midi_controller (May 18, 2013)

Folmann @ Sat May 18 said:


> ...please note the library will NOT be released to the general public.



Then please don't advertise it. If you want to create a private library, keep it private. I wouldn't even talk about it at all on a public forum like this.


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## Ed (May 18, 2013)

midi_controller @ Sat May 18 said:


> Folmann @ Sat May 18 said:
> 
> 
> > ...please note the library will NOT be released to the general public.
> ...



I dunno it might be part private, like a limited buy in. If its totally private, then yea I agree. Having said that... it could also inspire other developers to push the limits themselves. Thats exactly what happened with the "Project Prague" library, and that was only talked about when people asked WTF are those amazing samples in X's track


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## Folmann (May 18, 2013)

Let me explain a little more about the V8P concept. The last couple of years we have gotten a great deal of feedback from the established scoring community. The single most frequent request is to create high-end custom content, which is designed with their needs/wishes in mind. 

We have created some custom/private libraries over the years, but the concept with V8P is to create a more inclusive model, yet retain exclusivity for people inside of the club. The V8P club is not only about sample libraries either, but have a variety of membership benefits that goes far beyond what we have seen in the sample world to this date.

We will be sharing more information about this over the coming months - and I will be happy to discuss the initiative in more detail. Everyone is welcome to apply for membership in V8P - granted they fulfill the membership requirements.

In the meantime we are about to make another major announcement - keep close eyes on FB page during the next 7 days. Here is the first little hint:







Peace.


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## MarkS_Comp (May 18, 2013)

Folmann @ Sat May 18 said:


> Everyone is welcome to apply for membership in V8P - granted they fulfill the membership requirements.



hope you at least make those req public.



Folmann @ Sat May 18 said:


>



A Ent library, perhaps? :mrgreen: 

_
If you don't know what an Ent is, shame on you!_


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## Folmann (May 18, 2013)

Could be cool to do a library feat. John Rhys-Davies, but this is even better IMO.


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## Sid Francis (May 18, 2013)

The more I read the more I get the feeling that it should have been kept private. It seems to imply a little bit of "you? yes" and and mighty lot of "you? no" At least the impression I get now.
But that´s the same breach as the member in another thread who said :
"Make it cost 1000$ so that you do not hear the content on every corner tomorrow" Probably I am in a very different situation than others, but I do not use sounds that you hear on every corner anyway. And if I use the same resources as someone else than I will nevertheless always sound like me and not like others. If the only difference between your music and those of others is the "monetary weight" of the libraries you used than you´d better be off playing tennis... :|


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## jamwerks (May 19, 2013)

Why all the criticism about the privet-open, let me in-keep me out? Seems we all have the right to do what we want for who we want, no?

That said, the privet thing will obviously make it (very) expensive for those who want it. The pro's they're speaking of are probably guys making ton's in game scores, who want a palette that others don't have, setting them a bit apart.

Where there's money, there's room for real orchestras. But this large format seems like for guys who aren't looking for the sparkle of live players, but rather massive "patches" that others don't have.

But frankly, what sets most us apart is our writing, our savy orchestration and our tasteful synth-sculpting. When I hear "100 strings, 60 brass", I think most of us wouldn't be interested, even if it wasn't privet.


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## Krayh (May 19, 2013)

Folmann @ Sat 18 May said:


> but please note the library will NOT be released to the general public.



Oh cool a secret library, that will definitely crank up the prices right? Nice marketing strategy!


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## Krayh (May 19, 2013)

By the way your website http://www.troelsfolmann.com/ seems to be hacked. Or do you need the extra income via google ads to support the new library?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (May 19, 2013)

Haters will hate.


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## reid (May 19, 2013)

Folmann @ 19th May said:


> Everyone is welcome to apply for membership in V8P - granted they fulfill the membership requirements.




So you're saying people can't even APPLY for the thing unless they meet some form of requirements? Harsh. And delusional.....


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## Tatu (May 19, 2013)

reid @ Sun May 19 said:


> Folmann @ 19th May said:
> 
> 
> > Everyone is welcome to apply for membership in V8P - granted they fulfill the membership requirements.
> ...



Yeah, I hate Spitfire even more, because their private library is invite only. They're such delusional, harsh assholes.



Ned Bouhalassa said:


> Haters will hate.


+1

PS: I <3 Spitfire 
PPS: Ned, that's an awesome avatar.


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## reid (May 19, 2013)

Tatu @ 19th May said:


> Yeah, I hate Spitfire even more, because their private library is invite only.



Harsh.




Tatu @ 19th May said:


> They're such delusional, harsh assholes.



Harsh - but fair.


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## JPQ (May 19, 2013)

I dont understand these private libs. btw i dont have money get many samples anyway.


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## jamwerks (May 19, 2013)

Yeah my neighbors had a (private) dinner party last night (I wasn't invited). I hate them, they're such assholes. :roll:


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## Tatu (May 19, 2013)

jamwerks @ Sun May 19 said:


> Yeah my neighbors had a (private) dinner party last night (I wasn't invited). I hate them, they're such assholes. :roll:



:mrgreen:


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## RasmusFors (May 19, 2013)

I wonder what that "in the air" library could be :shock: [/quote]


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## Krayh (May 19, 2013)

jamwerks @ Sun 19 May said:


> Yeah my neighbors had a (private) dinner party last night (I wasn't invited). I hate them, they're such assholes. :roll:



And did they also send you a flyer telling about it? Mentioning all the "good" stuff they would serve to their guests? And in the end telling you are not invited? A bit pointless dont you think?


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## EwigWanderer (May 19, 2013)

I understand the need for private libraries, but to brag about it here is unnecessary. I'm sure 8DIO has they contacts to promote this to them privately.


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## muziksculp (May 19, 2013)

imho. Sample Libraries are just tools to produce music, I see no reason why some would be excluded from using them, if they can afford these tools, *why the restrictions *? 

So, I find it a bit odd that one would have to apply to qualify to buy a sample library. 

Maybe if one was intending to purchase an MRI, or XRay machine, or a fighter jet, then applying to qualify for using it makes sense, but a sample library ? :roll:


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## MA-Simon (May 19, 2013)

> I understand the need for private libraries, but to brag about it here is unnecessary. I'm sure 8DIO has they contacts to promote this to them privately.


So you think they have prepared a contact list with all the professionals in the industry, worldwide, conveniently mailing them when their product is released?

Non-subscribed advetisement mails are _not_ legal in a lot of countries.
If they want to promote their product and get their userbase together, the only thing they can do is to go the online route. 

I rather see stuff like this exposed to public daylight and not hidded behind some secret composers society!


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## Tatu (May 19, 2013)

EwigWanderer @ Sun May 19 said:


> I understand the need for private libraries, but to brag about it here is unnecessary. I'm sure 8DIO has they contacts to promote this to them privately.



Somewhat true, but this is also a library to which one - the great majority - has to apply, so there's clearly need to let people know about it. But surely they'll contact the big names with more personalized ads.

And I suppose that it doesn't hurt anyone if a developer amongst developers lets everyone know about their upcoming product...


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## jamwerks (May 19, 2013)

Krayh @ Sun May 19 said:


> And did they also send you a flyer telling about it?



If I'm not mistaken, 8dio didn't send any of us a flyer either. Nothing wrong imo talking about a private library here on a public forum, where many of those "in-guys" hang out.

Kind of reminds me of when a family comes home, and dad and mom lock the bedroom door, and the 4 year old kid cries at the door, feeling left out..... >8o


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## Tatu (May 19, 2013)

jamwerks @ Sun May 19 said:


> Kind of reminds me of when a family comes home, and dad and mom lock the bedroom door, and the 4 year old kid cries at the door, feeling left out..... >8o



Nasty, sir.

But yeah, that's how it seems like.


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## Krayh (May 19, 2013)

jamwerks @ Sun 19 May said:


> Krayh @ Sun May 19 said:
> 
> 
> > And did they also send you a flyer telling about it?
> ...



What's this then dude? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFwbPIOlIC0


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## reid (May 19, 2013)

jamwerks @ 19th May said:


> Kind of reminds me of when a family comes home, and dad and mom lock the bedroom door, and the 4 year old kid cries at the door, feeling left out..... >8o




That's enough about your privet life, jamwerks.


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## JPQ (May 19, 2013)

jamwerks @ Sun 19 May said:


> Yeah my neighbors had a (private) dinner party last night (I wasn't invited). I hate them, they're such assholes. :roll:



I meaned if there is such thing please dont tell this other people becouse knowledge adds pain.


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## jamwerks (May 19, 2013)

reid @ Sun May 19 said:


> That's enough about your privet life, jamwerks.


 Touché :mrgreen:


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## Craig Sharmat (May 19, 2013)

I cannot speak for 8dio but some of the requirements may be to avoid piracy helping to keep the lib private and protected to help with it's exclusivity. I would think if a library is expensive the members want to make sure it does not end up on another torrent board, otherwise the investment is highly compromised and the idea is trashed.


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## MarkS_Comp (May 19, 2013)

JPQ @ Sun May 19 said:


> I dont understand these private libs.



It was explained above. What is there to not understand?



EwigWanderer @ Sun May 19 said:


> I understand the need for private libraries, but to brag about it here is unnecessary. I'm sure 8DIO has they contacts to promote this to them privately.



Who was bragging? Troels did not start this thread, and all he did was explain what the library was. You call that bragging?



Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun May 19 said:


> Haters will hate.



This.


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## Sid Francis (May 19, 2013)

Craig, in fact this might be a good reason.

Ned : where is hate? I think the nasty stuff started after your posting. :x I do not hate 8Dio. And I do not feel left out. I would not even accept their invitation if I had the money because I do not like the concept, that´s all. Though the reason to avoid piracy is a good one, good enough alone to make a private lib. If they can make enough money with the privately invited and qualifying ones.

By the way: I always love your avatars too. What is the actual one showing? It leaves me with a question mark


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## muk (May 19, 2013)

Of course you can make a private party, but tell all the non-invited in detail about it is kinda bad style to me. However, if Craig is right that'd be a legit reason overruling my first sentence


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## Mike Marino (May 19, 2013)

MarkS_Comp @ Sun May 19 said:


> JPQ @ Sun May 19 said:
> 
> 
> > I dont understand these private libs.
> ...



+10


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## Resoded (May 19, 2013)

I think private libraries is a natural cure for everyone using the same things. Though I of course felt a little bit duped by the anagram thing this last christmas.


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## valexnerfarious (May 19, 2013)

i think this is 8dio shooting themselves in the foot with this private library just for the simple fact if this library is so bad ass and if Troels says it the best library he has ever used then everyone is gonna want it..and with piracy the way it is,why not release it to the general pubic and make more money instead of selling to a very select few.


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## 667 (May 19, 2013)

Craig Sharmat @ Sun May 19 said:


> I cannot speak for 8dio but some of the requirements may be to avoid piracy helping to keep the lib private and protected to help with it's exclusivity. I would think if a library is expensive the members want to make sure it does not end up on another torrent board, otherwise the investment is highly compromised and the idea is trashed.


I'm 100% in favour of this. I hate piracy.

Plus then I have a good chance of being accepted since I've been a customer a long time (ToneHammer days) and a pretty regular 8Dio customer too. Just picked up Mandolin in fact.


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## MarkS_Comp (May 19, 2013)

valexnerfarious @ Sun May 19 said:


> i think this is 8dio shooting themselves in the foot



I think you have no clue.

Based on CS, EW, and 8dio's Adagio, a full blown orchestral library is going to run the general public about $5k USD, give or take. Let's say 8dio is able to sell 100 copies. I have no idea what sales figures are like, but based on all of the orchestral sample libraries already on the market and in use, you aren't going to get 100s upon 100s of people to plunk down $5k. At least not today. So that's $500k in sales (I also have no idea what the cost/profit is either).

Based on Spifire's bespoke strings - $5k USD (correct me if I am wrong) - a full blown private orchestral library is going to run "the in crowd" about $20k USD, give or take. In today's market, we'll say $25k USD for 8dio's offering. How many license does 8dio need to sell to get even with what would have been a release to the gen pub?_ Twenty_. I can guarantee you there are more than 20 pro composers that would spend that money, knowing that they were going to get something that very few others had, and that they have something that is not going to be found on a torrent site. Let's say there are 40 of these composers. That's $1M in sales. 8dio has just doubled their money, do not have to worry about the library going warez, and are putting alot less time and effort into support b/c: a) there are less people, and b) the people they are dealing with are professionals - not kids, and other people who are going to complain about this and that b/c they don't know how to get the most out of there samples.

I hardly think this is 8dio shooting themselves in the foot.


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## Craig Sharmat (May 19, 2013)

Resoded @ Sun May 19 said:


> I think private libraries is a natural cure for everyone using the same things. Though I of course felt a little bit duped by the anagram thing this last christmas.



I think getting inspiration from a library is great but once again it's about the writing and use of samples. Having the newest library won't help much if you are not doing well with the current ones. Also with so many options now out it is a lot easier to sound different than the next composer even with just commercially available libs.


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## valexnerfarious (May 19, 2013)

MarkS_Comp @ Sun May 19 said:


> valexnerfarious @ Sun May 19 said:
> 
> 
> > i think this is 8dio shooting themselves in the foot
> ...



i feel that the envelope has been pushed almost just about as far as you can take it...i think the price for the Spitfires Bespoke range is ridiculous based on the demos that i have heard..yes it does sound better than the commercial releases..i dont think the price matches the quality by any means...i can only imagine the size the Bespoke range libraries being nothing short of incredibly massive maybe even being bigger in size than Hollywood Strings..i think it pigeon holds the rest of the community who would like to have these private libraries who have the money for them but the developer saying "NO you dont meet our requirements"...i think its a lil shady...i mean i know there are alot of people who enjoy composing music who are well known or famous who have that kind of money to throw around for a libraries like the two we mentioned....and you mentioned keeping libraries of the torrent sites by making it private....i read a story a few years back about someone who had their computer hacked or stolen or something and his stuff uploaded.lets say one of these libraries were on that computer,how does releasing a private library stop the piracy of those particular ones.....but yea the price i can imagine would be insane...Be something like HZ releasing his private samples and selling them with a huge price on them.


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## chrisblackwell (May 19, 2013)

I have the Spitfire Bespoke library and as I am a private person (with private parts) I feel this is quite apt.


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## RasmusFors (May 19, 2013)

> I have the Spitfire Bespoke library and as I am a private person (with private parts) I feel this is quite apt.



How does it sound compared to other releases ?


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## valexnerfarious (May 19, 2013)

legally speaking.how is this not discrimination by me being a consumer wanting a library like this and then the developer saying im not good enough? or not famous enough...im sure some people who own some of the fine 8dio libraries would be disappointed by this


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## dpasdernick (May 19, 2013)

Hmmm... I made a private library but didn't post it here because it was "private" As a matter of fact after you read this post I'll ask you to whack yourself up the head so that you don't even remember reading about it... if word gets out the sh&t is going to hit the fan and my lawyers will show their teeth...So far I've sold zero copies because it is so exclusive and I'm really picky about who I sell it to... I came close to selling it to Howard Shore but I backed out when he was fired from King Kong... (I don't want any hacks devaluing my cool library...) It is so expensive I've had to get a bailout from the government just to finish it up... You could work your entire life and not even acquire enough money to buy the addendum to the manual... It's that good... It's that exclusive... I can't even tell you what it is but I will let you know it comes with a secret handshake...


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## valexnerfarious (May 19, 2013)

dpasdernick @ Sun May 19 said:


> Hmmm... I made a private library but didn't post it here because it was "private" As a matter of fact after you read this post I'll ask you to whack yourself up the head so that you don't even remember reading about it... if word gets out the sh&t is going to hit the fan and my lawyers will show their teeth...So far I've sold zero copies because it is so exclusive and I'm really picky about who I sell it to... I came close to selling it to Howard Shore but I backed out when he was fired from King Kong... (I don't want any hacks devaluing my cool library...) It is so expensive I've had to get a bailout from the government just to finish it up... You could work your entire life and not even acquire enough money to buy the addendum to the manual... It's that good... It's that exclusive... I can't even tell you what it is but I will let you know it comes with a secret handshake...


That's alot of money to have not sold one copy...sounds like a fine investment


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## dpasdernick (May 19, 2013)

valexnerfarious @ Sun May 19 said:


> legally speaking.how is this not discrimination by me being a consumer wanting a library like this and then the developer saying im not good enough? or not famous enough...im sure some people who own some of the fine 8dio libraries would be disappointed by this



I don't get it. Lamborghini allows any a$$hole to drive around in their car as long as you have the cash... I seriously doubt there's enough A list composers out there to fund libraries like this without companies like 8Dio having regular "boring customers" like me funding them. If these exclusive libraries are miles better than anything else these developers create then all I have to say is "Why are you holding out on us?" "Get me the good stuff" I think the exclusive libraries should be a real orchestra that comes to your house other-wise it's still samples...

As far as People not wanting to her the same sounds over and over, and that's why they sell to a smaller select group, well then "The piano called and wants it's samples back..." 

Gentlemen, people have been writing music for eons with instruments like the piano and a violin and have made great music with the same instruments you and I can buy. Same thing with Yamaha DX7's, Emulators, etc. I think that if you're a great composer then you'll come up with something clever using EW's Hollywood series or 8Dio's Adagio stuff and save yourself a ton of dough.

With all of this said...

"Can I be in the club?" "Pretty please?" I play a mean Am and can rock a drum solo on ladies night like no other... pretty sure those are the requirements... Oh and sarcasm... I've got that as well...

Hugs,

Darren


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## chrisblackwell (May 19, 2013)

RasmusFors @ Sun May 19 said:


> > I have the Spitfire Bespoke library and as I am a private person (with private parts) I feel this is quite apt.
> 
> 
> 
> How does it sound compared to other releases ?



It sounds privater.


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## Casiquire (May 19, 2013)

valexnerfarious @ Sun 19 May said:


> legally speaking.how is this not discrimination by me being a consumer wanting a library like this and then the developer saying im not good enough? or not famous enough...im sure some people who own some of the fine 8dio libraries would be disappointed by this



They're a private company, they have the right to choose which libraries to offer to whom. It's discrimination in the same way private colleges discriminate based on peoples' academic achievements.

Though personally, I too think it's in poor taste to have a "private" library that is so well-publicized that someone who doesn't even follow their releases (me) still learned about it six months ago. I also agree that skills are more important than tools, and that fact makes these private libraries look more like an exclusive club that people will buy their way into just for the novelty of saying they are part of the club even though it does not reflect on any type of skills or talent whatsoever.


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## valexnerfarious (May 19, 2013)

Isn't it a diffrent situation were that private colleges are educational and this library is consumer based


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## dpasdernick (May 19, 2013)

Remember New England Digital? They made the Synclavier. It was so expensive only people like Michael Jackson, Sting, and Trevor Horn could afford them. That was a pretty exclusive club. At the time there was nothing (except maybe the Fairlight) that could touch it. Trevor Horn made some seriously cool music with it but was that due to the Synclav or his talent? They sold a premium product to a premium group. Now any Tom, Dick or Harry could buy it if they could afford it. The exclusivity was based on your wallet. Can 8Dio create a library that would make you want to trash EW Hollywood Strings, LASS, VSL, etc. Would you remortgage your house to buy it? Would it bump you up to Hans Zimmer overnight?

The point of my very entertaining ramblings are there's no point in getting offended by 8Dio or any other company's business model of creating exclusive content for a select few by invitation or higher pricing. I don't mean this ill-spirited but I seriously doubt they will make a fortune selling at a higher price to a select few. I think it is an interesting marketing strategy to get monkey's like me to type about something I will never own but on the other hand 8Dio will never see my money for it either. (unless they let me into their damn club ) In fact I'm not sure I'm supposed to even know about it. Do they win? Do I win? Does this make me feel sad that I'm not in the club and can only buy their regular stuff? Do I have a new opinion on their other "regular" libraries now because it seems that they are less than premium? 

These are important questions that have me typing sh^t here instead of writing my music. 

Darren

PS Is there some sort of cool embroidered letterman's jacket that you get for joining the club? Like on the back it would say "I have 8Dio Orchestra. F*ck You" or "You'd have a coat like this if you had any talent" 

PSS BTW, When is 8Dio having a sale on the other crap they sell? $99 for Ambient Guitars? Come on Troels, this is ridiculous... I can't write with this stuff. I need the premium stuff. The Glengary leads...

PSSS I'm just kidding... (except about the sale)


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## MarkS_Comp (May 19, 2013)

chrisblackwell @ Sun May 19 said:


> I have the Spitfire Bespoke library and as I am a private person (with private parts) I feel this is quite apt.



Did said private parts come with the Bespoke library, or did you obtain them prior?


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## Greg (May 19, 2013)

The brass in the teaser sounded pretty fucking awesome!


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## MarkS_Comp (May 19, 2013)

valexnerfarious @ Sun May 19 said:


> legally speaking.how is this not discrimination by me being a consumer wanting a library like this and then the developer saying im not good enough?



LOL - you cant be serious!!!

Dont know where you are, but here in the USA it is illegal to discriminate against people b/c of things like race, religion, nation of origin, etc. It is not illegal to discriminate against someone for financial reasons. THAT is completely legal. 

If I want to rent an apartment from a management company, but don't have enough income to be able to pay the monthly rent, does the management company have the right to decline me? Of course they do.

If I want to attend Harvard (insert any school here if you'd' like), but can't afford the tuition, does the board have the right to decline me? Of course they do.


Is it illegal to discriminate against someone for financial reasons in other countries?


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## Mike Marino (May 19, 2013)

How are this many people so butt hurt about something that has so few details right now???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRTkCHE1sS4


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## valexnerfarious (May 19, 2013)

MarkS_Comp @ Sun May 19 said:


> valexnerfarious @ Sun May 19 said:
> 
> 
> > legally speaking.how is this not discrimination by me being a consumer wanting a library like this and then the developer saying im not good enough?
> ...


if the only requirement is monetary..that's understandable..but to say that I couldn't but the product for any reason other than money is discrimination IMO.and troels said "Requirements".which is plural which means more than just money.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 19, 2013)

They have the right to sell or not sell it to anyone based on their assessment of what is best for their company's business. 

Personally, I wouldn't want to buy anything from anyone who did not want to sell it to me anyway, regardless of the reasons.


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## sin(x) (May 19, 2013)

Not a big 8dio fan, but seeing that they have half the forum gossiping viciously about a library of largely unspecified content that might or might not be made available at an unknown point in the future to an unspecified group of people, I can't but admire their PR chops.


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## valexnerfarious (May 19, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 19 said:


> They have the right to sell or not sell it to anyone based on their assessment of what is best for their company's business.
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't want to buy anything from anyone who did not want to sell it to me anyway, regardless of the reasons.


So its pretty much what you're saying that its not different than me go to I don't know let's say...the apple store to by a computer and having them tell me no it wouldn't be good for them to sell me one right lol


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## muziksculp (May 19, 2013)

Holly Cow... 100 Strings , 60 Brass ! 

Any commercial movie scores that you know of, that use this size of orchestra ? 

It will be interesting to listen to them.  

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## benmrx (May 19, 2013)

Wow! You guys (NOT 8Dio) are a hype MACHINE! 

No one knows what any of the requirements are. What if you MUST have brown eyes, and were born on a Tuesday? What if you have to wear a Cosby sweater and pledge your love for Jello?


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## EastWest Lurker (May 19, 2013)

valexnerfarious @ Sun May 19 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 19 said:
> 
> 
> > They have the right to sell or not sell it to anyone based on their assessment of what is best for their company's business.
> ...



I am saying it is their decision to make, whether it is good one or not.


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## dpasdernick (May 19, 2013)

benmrx @ Sun May 19 said:


> Wow! You guys (NOT 8Dio) are a hype MACHINE!
> 
> No one knows what any of the requirements are. What if you MUST have brown eyes, and were born on a Tuesday? What if you have to wear a Cosby sweater and pledge your love for Jello?




Brown Eyes? Check! 
Born On a Tuesday? Check! 
Cosby Sweater? Been aching for a reason to throw this puppy on!
Love of Jello? Sh^t yeah!

MAN I AM SO F*CKING IN!!!!!!!!! 

"I'd like to thank the Academy"

Ha, Ha! You were born on a Wednesday you stupid brown-eyed, Cosby sweater wearin', jello lovin' "out-a-da-club" loser... Momma should of had that C-Section a day early...


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## Jeffrey Peterson (May 19, 2013)

What are the requirements Troels? At least give us some idea.


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## valexnerfarious (May 19, 2013)

Haha +1000.
That's awesome


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## Resoded (May 19, 2013)

Craig Sharmat @ 19th May 2013 said:


> Resoded @ Sun May 19 said:
> 
> 
> > I think private libraries is a natural cure for everyone using the same things. Though I of course felt a little bit duped by the anagram thing this last christmas.
> ...



Yeah, you're right, one of the biggest eye openers for me was Blakus use of LASS. Sure enough, with mixing and programming skills, most libraries can sound really great. And of course vice versa, great libraries can sound bad when used wrong.


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## dpasdernick (May 19, 2013)

Don't take this thread too seriously gents. Ask yourself these questions...

1) What is this library? (well Bob I don't know, there's really no information)
2) Do I need another whatever the heck this library is?
3) Would I pay a ton of dough for it?
4) Would it make me a better musician?
5) Would it pay for itself in a appropriate amount of time?


I'm betting we're all going to make it through with out these gigabytes on our drive...


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## Stephen Baysted (May 19, 2013)

Like Chris I have the bespoke Spitfire Symphonic strings. They sound like a hedge. A privet hedge, but one that's been immaculately topiaried.  

[tab]


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## KingIdiot (May 19, 2013)

If you can't make solid sounding music and mixes with the available tools. There's something else wrong in your pipeline.

I'm sure buying a custom made hot rod concept microphone from nuemann only limitedly available is going to be the answer, and they should make more readily available for everyone

ESPECIALLY if the designs from that mic and it's tests in practivce end up leading to better and more available producct down the line. Because who the hell want tried and tested product? From people sho use it everyday in heavy use environments no less? Niche polar patterns no one is sure they'll use, or how they'll work in the grand scheme? yah...get it out there... who cares. make everyone beta it.


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## KingIdiot (May 19, 2013)

How about some folk get together with the available tools and try to mock up the same sound with layers or reverbs and EQs or half the new tools that have shown up in the past decade?

nothing pushed boundaries more than the community doing it themselves, now it seems to be a waiting game to complain about the next lib.

come on back folks. We live in amazing times and have amazing tools, a lot that sound... well amazing. If I've got a solid camero, I don't really think I need a bugati. Especially if I can hot rod it out!

let's be DAW garage mechanics together again. Build shit we love together, instead of being Jay Lenos, waiting to see what we can buy, or wannabes only waiting or the next model.

there's so much talent and ears and ideas here, I'm sure of it!

buy what you want, buy what you can afford, buy what you can get. But complaining that you can't have it, when there is SO MUCH availalbe and so much we can do together to make all that's available even better... it just seems so trivial and lazy for such a group of talent

o-[][]-o


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## Jeffrey Peterson (May 19, 2013)

Resoded @ Sun May 19 said:


> Craig Sharmat @ 19th May 2013 said:
> 
> 
> > Resoded @ Sun May 19 said:
> ...



Can you point me to this programming performance?


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## midi_controller (May 19, 2013)

I think it's interesting that people think that any kind of discussion, even mostly negative (which is where I think this thread has gone), is good publicity. It's not, at least not for sample libraries. You know what else had people talking and speculating like crazy? The Audio Impressions string library. I still haven't heard of anyone who actually bought it.

I can understand setting a higher price point for your libraries, excluding certain countries from buying altogether (but hopefully still able to make exceptions), or even making it available only to established, trustworthy customers. All these actions will stave off piracy, and limit your customer base so that it's more "exclusive". I honestly wouldn't see any problem if this is the route 8dio is going.

But they didn't say that. They said it wouldn't be available to the general public (despite advertising it to the general public). I think that is where the backlash is coming from here. It feels like elitism, and people are worried that when these "requirements" are announced, most of us won't make the cut. It's not nice to have someone rub something in your face going "Look at this! Isn't it awesome! Well you can't have it because you aren't good enough!". It's just not a good feeling.

Again, this might not be the case at all, but I think this is where the animosity is coming from. Yes, people are jumping to conclusions, but that is the thing about promotional material without enough information: you are encouraging them to jump to conclusions. If nothing else, we can say that this is yet another example of why developers need to stop making teaser videos without much information. Sample libraries are not movies.


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## Jeffrey Peterson (May 19, 2013)

KingIdiot @ Sun May 19 said:


> How about some folk get together with the available tools and try to mock up the same sound with layers or reverbs and EQs or half the new tools that have shown up in the past decade?
> 
> nothing pushed boundaries more than the community doing it themselves, now it seems to be a waiting game to complain about the next lib.
> 
> ...



I do agree with you.


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## valexnerfarious (May 19, 2013)

midi_controller @ Sun May 19 said:


> I think it's interesting that people think that any kind of discussion, even mostly negative (which is where I think this thread has gone), is good publicity. It's not, at least not for sample libraries. You know what else had people talking and speculating like crazy? The Audio Impressions string library. I still haven't heard of anyone who actually bought it.
> 
> I can understand setting a higher price point for your libraries, excluding certain countries from buying altogether (but hopefully still able to make exceptions), or even making it available only to established, trustworthy customers. All these actions will stave off piracy, and limit your customer base so that it's more "exclusive". I honestly wouldn't see any problem if this is the route 8dio is going.
> 
> ...



Tell me how you define trustworthy...what would determine that?...wether or not you torrented a library?


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## midi_controller (May 19, 2013)

It's not about the people who torrent, it's about stopping the people who initially upload it. If you have a customer that has bought your libraries and those copies have not ended up on the internet for others to download (I believe 8dio watermarks, so they should be able to trace it back to the original purchaser), I would say that person is a trustworthy customer. 

From what I have heard, quite a bit of pirated software is bought with stolen credit cards. By the time the developer finds out it was a fraudulent purchase, it has already been downloaded and in some cases distributed. So if you make sure that it is your established customer base, you can at least take those people out of the equation as well.

It's not a perfect solution by any means, but that combined with a couple other methods might work fairly well, at least for a super high end library.


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## valexnerfarious (May 19, 2013)

midi_controller @ Sun May 19 said:


> It's not about the people who torrent, it's about stopping the people who initially upload it. If you have a customer that has bought your libraries and those copies have not ended up on the internet for others to download (I believe 8dio watermarks, so they should be able to trace it back to the original purchaser), I would say that person is a trustworthy customer.
> 
> From what I have heard, quite a bit of pirated software is bought with stolen credit cards. By the time the developer finds out it was a fraudulent purchase, it has already been downloaded and in some cases distributed. So if you make sure that it is your established customer base, you can at least take those people out of the equation as well.
> 
> It's not a perfect solution by any means, but that combined with a couple other. methods might work fairly well, at least for a super high end library.


Oh I get it now...so the developer is a lil hesitant or affraid to sell their exclusive product to anyone who has the money to pay for it..they would rather have ridiculous requirements or screeening process to try to weed out potential uploaders..yea that seems fair lol...so the one's who don't get chosen are pretty much being labeled a uploaded or pirate...good way to make the rest of the 8dio customers feel like dirt if they can't get the exclusive library.


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## midi_controller (May 19, 2013)

No one is actually doing that, I just made it up. Personally I don't see that as ridiculous for a more exclusive library. The thing is, at least in the way that I proposed it, pretty much no legitimate customer would be denied purchasing. I strongly doubt anyone would do this though, it would be a really big pain in the ass to implement.


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## dpasdernick (May 19, 2013)

My big question is how much better can it be? EW has there own Studio and hired Shawn Murphy to produce. Mike and Mike at Cinesamples used the best studio players for their brass library. Does this new library have more round robins? More velocity layers? Better programming? If it's orchestral is it that much closer to the real thing? Have we been duped all these years by developers cutting corners? Can 8Dio produce a string library better than Adagio? How much would that cost? Can they recoup that cost selling, even at 20k, to a handful of elite composers? 

I personally don't get it. Do people actually listen to music with samples and say "Well that's definitely LASS", or "This song is great but the violas sound like Hollywood Strings" I can see things like Evolve or Damage being recognizable but an orchestral library used properly should be able to sound pretty versatile. After all, as I mentioned, the piano has been used to write thousands of songs and nobody ever says, "Oh I've heard that before" If this library is not orchestral, and more like Evolve or Damage then I can see only distributing it to a select group of people to avoid everybody using it. But if it's an orchestral library then I'm curious as to whether it will blow me away like Thomas J's Soaring over Hollywood did with a measly consumer grade product. :? 

It's in the notes boys, not in the samples.


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## Ed (May 19, 2013)

valexnerfarious @ Sun May 19 said:


> Oh I get it now...so the developer is a lil hesitant or affraid to sell their exclusive product to anyone who has the money to pay for it..they would rather have ridiculous requirements or screeening process to try to weed out potential uploaders..yea that seems fair lol...so the one's who don't get chosen are pretty much being labeled a uploaded or pirate...good way to make the rest of the 8dio customers feel like dirt if they can't get the exclusive library.



Exaggerate much? Dont make someone post cry baby pictures.


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## KingIdiot (May 19, 2013)

dpasdernick @ Sun May 19 said:


> My big question is how much better can it be? EW has there own Studio and hired Shawn Murphy to produce. Mike and Mike at Cinesamples used the best studio players for their brass library. Does this new library have more round robins? More velocity layers? Better programming? If it's orchestral is it that much closer to the real thing? Have we been duped all these years by developers cutting corners? Can 8Dio produce a string library better than Adagio? How much would that cost? Can they recoup that cost selling, even at 20k, to a handful of elite composers?
> 
> I personally don't get it. Do people actually listen to music with samples and say "Well that's definitely LASS", or "This song is great but the violas sound like Hollywood Strings" I can see things like Evolve or Damage being recognizable but an orchestral library used properly should be able to sound pretty versatile. After all, as I mentioned, the piano has been used to write thousands of songs and nobody ever says, "Oh I've heard that before" If this library is not orchestral, and more like Evolve or Damage then I can see only distributing it to a select group of people to avoid everybody using it. But if it's an orchestral library then I'm curious as to whether it will blow me away like Thomas J's Soaring over Hollywood did with a measly consumer grade product. :?





it's not just about recognizable sounds, or getting something that performs better. As an engineer anyone should recognize the need for different instruments of the same type. You can have 8 guitars and they will all sound different enough to make for a certain kind of sound or combinations of sounds. Just because I have a strat, doesn't mean I'm going to be able to get fat rock tones. Or if I want a tele neck mid selection sound, I can't use a Ricky. Tones and characters can be approximated (and the tools are getting better each day, so the ), but character of sound will have different value to different people.

The ridiculous thing I see here is the bitching like 5 yr olds. We didn't even have half the sounds we have a decade ago, and people were making great music and pushing boundaries in their mixes. Today it's more than doubled, and people are just sitting here waiting for things to be done for them. I get that everyone is busy working three times as hard for half the money, but that's even more reason to build a community that helps each other instead of letting the developers run the show. Your show! OUR SHOW!

what the hell happened here? Developers are doing amazing things, and instead it's "hey listen to my music", and "this library sucks" still. There's some col things like the orchestraion ting Mike'd doing. I love bob's still doing scripting help, but where's the experimenting with mixes and collaboration with getting more out the tools? Rebuilding patches for users, or even resampling things on your own for your own massive patches.

I highly doubt ANYTHING is going to beat Tobias's old mega stacatto patches he made for himself out of available samples. Layer upon layer of FF limited to hell, it was ridiculously awesome, and punchy. Even V8P probably wont sound like that. It will sound awesome, but it wont do that. Everyone here has the opportunity to do that. Make something amazing, that no one else can have.

GAS has turned into SAS. You let these guys rule you with this process. I love every one of them. They pay me. They helped me get back on my feet... but make the community rock again. Push envelopes yourselves. Share techniques. Turn this scene back into a community made up of more than just consumers.

worrying about something a developer does or doesn't do, and why you assume they are doing it, on something that doesn't even pertain to you is a waste of energy. Let them talk about it. Let it inspire you to do something that shows you don't need it.

/cheerleading _-) o=?



dpasdernick @ Sun May 19 said:


> It's in the notes boys, not in the samples.



I'm with you! o-[][]-o


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## Guy Rowland (May 19, 2013)

dpasdernick and King Idiot, two fantastic posts.


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## NYC Composer (May 20, 2013)

1. Vaporware is marketed at a low level, street rumor buzz begins.
2. Exclusivity/semi-exclusivity not determined-daringly undetermined new model sends forum into a lather.
3. "Greatest sounding blahblahblah since the invention of 12 tone music blahblah" blurb emanates from marketing headquarters. Initial theories of toast-making apparatus are debunked.
4. A hearty discussion ensues, prompting multi-page thread about something that doesn't exist. People take sides.
5. (projected)- folks share a collegial chuckle about the silliness of theorizing angrily about vaporware. Peace returns to the valley.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (May 20, 2013)

Amazing post, Ashif! Thanks for the kick in the ass.


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## valexnerfarious (May 20, 2013)

Ed @ Sun May 19 said:


> valexnerfarious @ Sun May 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh I get it now...so the developer is a lil hesitant or affraid to sell their exclusive product to anyone who has the money to pay for it..they would rather have ridiculous requirements or screeening process to try to weed out potential uploaders..yea that seems fair lol...so the one's who don't get chosen are pretty much being labeled a uploaded or pirate...good way to make the rest of the 8dio customers feel like dirt if they can't get the exclusive library.
> ...


lol...i didnt know he was making that up


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## valexnerfarious (May 20, 2013)

The whole point i was getting to is that why have these requirements and turn people down of a library like this knowing good and well that if you sold it like any other library you would make more money..having these requirements is just lame


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## TheUnfinished (May 20, 2013)

midi_controller @ Mon May 20 said:


> Yes, people are jumping to conclusions, but that is the thing about promotional material without enough information: you are encouraging them to jump to conclusions. If nothing else, we can say that this is yet another example of why developers need to stop making teaser videos without much information. Sample libraries are not movies.


This.


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## KingIdiot (May 20, 2013)

TheUnfinished @ Mon May 20 said:


> midi_controller @ Mon May 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, people are jumping to conclusions, but that is the thing about promotional material without enough information: you are encouraging them to jump to conclusions. If nothing else, we can say that this is yet another example of why developers need to stop making teaser videos without much information. Sample libraries are not movies.
> ...



I call bullshit on this, you're limiting developers to only be for you and develop product for you. When Zimmer Did videos about the sampling he did with LSO, everyone raved, and wished they could have those samples for themselves, and wished they could be like them, instead saying, basically, "what a douche nozzle". Such double standards, in the realm of envy.

That shit inspired us all a decade ago. Now people call these folk out for expanding what they want to do, and share in what they are up to. Marketing is whatever it's going to be. I fucking hate trailer for trailers on the internet, but it's the market. It's what people respond to.

but complaining is such a waste of energy on such a trivial thing. Want to make fun of it? sure, go to town, but the entitlement here is pretty over the top. I'm sure, the same could be said about my rant here, but I think the community and what we do here isn't trivial.

Look guys. developers all do things differently. Call them out on product when it doesn't work. Or when you're beta testing for them. Shit probably wont change but you've paid for product and you have mor than a right. But here... there's so much to be said about what this post has brought about.

You've let these guys take control, without any manipulation or attempt on their part. I know it has no meaning in the real world, it's only the vocal few on VI, but that's what bothers me the most. The vocal few, who are obviously passionate about what these tools can do, yet the energy has become passive activism. Worse than "likes" on facebook, and generic fanboyism. The path leads to Wall-E levels of lazyness of fat cheetoh wearing composers using band in a box to compose arpeggios with one press on a mini keyboard.

You're forcing them to build tools to run us as creative people out of existence. "do it for me". There's so much opportunity here to stretch the limits of our tools, to push musical boundaries to experiment, to create a scene that can push music and the DAW composing market to be respected, and here's a vocal group spending time complaining about how these guys are marketing.

Troels is an amazing dude, smart, talented as fuck, and his work ethic is going to make him lose hair on his balls. Every time I talk to him, I've learned it's because he's inspired. Everything he does is because something made him think about trying something. Same goes for Nick, it was about filling his needs because there wasn't something out there. Same goes for other folk, it was missing, or because they didn't want to support people they thought were jackasses. There are a few. Hell we all can be at times.

if you're willing to spend a grand on a library, get together with 20 other folk that have talent and you respect from here and do something awesome on your own. If you're willing to pay 10k, imagine what 10 of you could do?!?! Or if you want to do something larger on a smaller budget, start a kickstarter campaign...something. Experiment, get out from the developers gigantic shadow. Support them with what you want to buy because it will be useful, not because you're addicted to having it all. Let them be a light you look to for help, instead of making them a cascade of money grabbing hands. We allhave the power here to do that. Not by rejecting them, and for sure not by being armchair marketing reps, but by making the community something ridiculously cool to be a part of. That's what started this all when gigastudio came out and we all needed to learn how to use it better.

I'm sorry I haven't been around much these past few years guys. My head was self destructing from life. I also became pretty burned out from the idea sharing and how far it took me from being of any value in terms of being hired. Since I took off, I've built up some really insane ideas in my head (it's a scary place in there). Some I'm finally putting to test with some developers, and some that are still gestating. I promise to try to hang around more often and share in some thoughts and experiments, on things that fail, and things that would be fun"what if's".

I think combined we can have an incredible set of ears, and tools and can really push us back into a great creative place with the tools. So we can all bitch at Kontakt for having bugs together!


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## sin(x) (May 20, 2013)

midi_controller @ 2013-05-20 said:


> I think it's interesting that people think that any kind of discussion, even mostly negative (which is where I think this thread has gone), is good publicity. It's not, at least not for sample libraries. You know what else had people talking and speculating like crazy? The Audio Impressions string library. I still haven't heard of anyone who actually bought it.



Yeah, but this is not even a sample library (yet?) – it's a concept, and as far as I can tell it's one that's directed towards creating an aura of exclusivity and elitism around a range of upcoming products. If that assumption is true, people preemptively going to the barricades out of disdain for the idea of exclusion, or fear they personally might end up in the excluded crowd, will be rather helpful in achieving that.



> Yes, people are jumping to conclusions, but that is the thing about promotional material without enough information: you are encouraging them to jump to conclusions. If nothing else, we can say that this is yet another example of why developers need to stop making teaser videos without much information. Sample libraries are not movies.



As long as teasing will create such a huge resonance, it won't go anywhere. If we (and yes, I'm fully aware I'm currently doing my part in this) don't want to be targeted as a popcorn-munching, thrill-seeking movie audience, we should stop acting as one. I firmly believe the only response that'd defuse PR concepts inherent to stuff like this would be institutionalized disregard, and that it'd be healthy for any forum community to extend its “don't feed the trolls” stance towards attempts of hype engineering as well. “Yeah, no. Come back when you actually have something to show.”


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## Guy Rowland (May 20, 2013)

Well this is fun, isn't it? I agree with absolutely everyone.

Tell you what's odd - 8VP being the big Christmas teaser when it's aimed at a private audience. I have no issue with private libs, but trying to hype the masses into something they can't have does seem a little perverse. All of which makes this whole subject little more than o[])


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## midi_controller (May 20, 2013)

KingIdiot @ Mon May 20 said:


> I call bullshit on this, you're limiting developers to only be for you and develop product for you...



Someone needs a nap. :D

If you read the rest of my post, you'd realize I'm not on anyone's side here. 8dio can make whatever library they like, and sell it to whomever they wish. That is fine by me. But private libraries should remain private. Imagine if, awhile back, the guys behind Project Prague had put up marketing stuff, going "Look at all this awesome new library!" and then later said "Oh, sorry, this is a private library, you can't buy it." Same thing would have happened. It's just bad form.

Would I respond the same way to Mr. Zimmer posting a teaser video to his next library that is only for the Remote Control people? You bet your ass. The only thing I've ever seen about Zimmer's library was an article on the techniques that he used, which I was able to learn from and actually apply to my own libraries. That is _very_ different than what we have here.

I'm not seeing any entitlement here. I'm seeing people frustrated that they have money to spend, have been marketed to, and have just now found out that they might not make the cut. This will _always_ happen in a situation like this. No one likes being told they are not good enough for something. Elitism is a very bad thing.

As for the sample library teasers, I said what I did because I've never seen one generate positive feedback, and I always call developers out on them. If you have the time to put together a teaser, you have the time to release quality info about what your library is.


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## Synesthesia (May 20, 2013)

valexnerfarious @ Sun May 19 said:


> i feel that the envelope has been pushed almost just about as far as you can take it...i think the price for the Spitfires Bespoke range is ridiculous based on the demos that i have heard..yes it does sound better than the commercial releases..i dont think the price matches the quality by any means...



Just to clarify, the bespoke project (which closed on the last module about a year ago) was initially a small group of coworkers all chipping in, and Christian and I doing a massive painful amount of hard work for no profit - apart from the profit of having some awesome samples! Then that group asked if we could do more instruments, our team grew by 2 members, and we ended up with a slightly larger but still small group, and a full library, and another couple of years of trauma. :D We are incredibly proud of having pumped about £500k into the UK studio and muso economy on the bespoke, we could easily have spent another £500k, but we had to try and put some limits on it, to keep the value of the founding members' investment, and also to limit our very real losses. 

The license cost is purely the cost of production divided by the number of members. Nothing ridiculous about that, unless you wish to go bankrupt, and give it away for less than it cost you to make.

It was a huge labour of love. Also embarked upon in an entirely naive enthusiasm and state of grace! We 'got away with' a huge amount of things that would not work in the context of a commercial library.

The BML range uses the best of the skills and knowledge we gathered from that enterprise, along with our experiences making the Albion and Definitive series.




> Be something like HZ releasing his private samples and selling them with a huge price on them.



This is of course happening -- essentially! -- with the HZ perc library. But not with a frighteningly huge price! :D

Paul


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## Maestro77 (May 20, 2013)

I have to agree with several posts here. It doesn't make sense to market and promote a private library to the general public, unless you're enticing people to join the club to get access to it (which very well may be the case here). But in their silence 8Dio is succeeding in polarizing potential customers. I'm very curious to see the requirements to qualify for the club. If they're outrageous and exclusive, then it's just a poor and cruel move to promote these libraries with flashy trailers and public announcements.


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## valexnerfarious (May 20, 2013)

Maestro77 @ Mon May 20 said:


> I have to agree with several posts here. It doesn't make sense to market and promote a private library to the general public, unless you're enticing people to join the club to get access to it (which very well may be the case here). But in their silence 8Dio is succeeding in polarizing potential customers. I'm very curious to see the requirements to qualify for the club. If they're outrageous and exclusive, then it's just a poor and cruel move to promote these libraries with flashy trailers and public announcements.



I feel that if you have enough money to purchase the library that should be the only requirement you need


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## TheUnfinished (May 20, 2013)

KingIdiot @ Mon May 20 said:


> TheUnfinished @ Mon May 20 said:
> 
> 
> > midi_controller @ Mon May 20 said:
> ...


I've no idea how you've got all that from me agreeing that teaser promotion is getting a bit silly.


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## KingIdiot (May 20, 2013)

that whole post is not all directed at just you.

but I do call bullshit on saying devs shouldn't market in a way that people are reacting to, and have reacted positively to in the past. It works for some, it doesn't for the others. When 8dio started with the teaser thing it got raves, and excitement, it still does from some in other venues.

but saying that companies shouldn't promote this way, is kidn of ridiculous, its like acting like Steinberg shouldn't hype release dates without saying what they are doing. It happens all over. It's marketing. It's a tactic that works. Even with the rejection here

the rest is more about he general state that I keep coming back to here. The cynicism. I know that's the habit of a lot of forums, its just so opposite of what this forum started on. To get away from letting how developers act control things, and be the center of it all.

it's so bizzaro land in here sometimes. I think I needed to vent after reading half the crap in this thread. I apologize if you took that as all directed to you. It's hard to separate things in stream of conscious typing, and trains of thought can't always be traced in reading. To try to direct towards an overall view of things instead of individuals gets dicey since it always looks like a whole reply.


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## TheUnfinished (May 20, 2013)

Hehe. Well, I understand much of what you're saying about the cynicism. 

I think the teaser thing has worked in the past, but it has felt a little over-saturated as a premise. People shouting "I have a great idea! You're gonna love it! But I'm not telling you what it is!" needs a break, a little moratorium, so that it can be fun again. Or maybe just done with a bit more ingenuity.

Ah, well... I'm prattling now.


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## Greg (May 20, 2013)

Lets be real, we create these litte controversies in threads just to try extracting more information from the devs. Thats all we really want :D


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## Plasuma!!! (May 20, 2013)

I don't get all the hubbub, it's just a private library that happened to have an advert. If anything, that just makes me dislike 8DIO's approach to marketing, but it's no reason to get up in arms and all offended.

Personally, I'm just going to keep avoiding 8DIO libraries as I have been. There's nothing to get hyped about over there.


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## Maestro77 (May 20, 2013)

Trailer videos are fine with me as long as they give a good idea what the product is going to be about (showing product name, what it's used for, specs, etc). It's the vague ones that are frustrating. Cornucopia Strings was one of those (it was just the word Cornucopia being spelled out slowly and gave basically no clue what it was). We don't need those, thx.


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## JT (May 20, 2013)

Situations like this remind me of what Grouch Marx once said:

_"Please accept my resignation. I don't want to belong to any club that will accept people like me as a member"_


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## KingIdiot (May 20, 2013)

JT @ Mon May 20 said:


> Situations like this remind me of what Grouch Marx once said:
> 
> _"Please accept my resignation. I don't want to belong to any club that will accept people like me as a member"_



don't mind me, just applying the wrong remedies.

(I mean.. who the fuck is Groucho marx? was he that guy on sesame street?)


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## Generdyn (May 20, 2013)

The only thing I want to know about this new private 8dio library is if there will still be all the standard, Hits, Inceptions, Rises, Tonal Loops, Atmospheric Drones and Epic Percussion sounds or if this library is going to have a much larger array of variety of new sounds and styles then any other one? 

I'm a sound designer myself, so the question for me is _will there going to be anything we haven't heard before?_

That would make it really appealing.

Regards,
Generdyn


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## reid (May 20, 2013)

Look, you're not even allowed to _ask_ that question unless you fulfill the entry requirements. 

Jeezus - could everyone try and show a bit more respect towards the nature of this epoch defining event, and make themselves fully conversant with the ground rules surrounding its discussion? It's just embarrassing watching so many of you trample over the boundaries of invitation-only-sample-library etiquette, nurtured so fondly over the years by no one in particular. Some decorum, please, gentlemen.


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## mark812 (May 21, 2013)

Who needs 100 strings / 60 brass sections anyways? "Epic" is dated, intimate is new epic. :D


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## mpalenik (May 21, 2013)

MarkS_Comp @ Sun May 19 said:


> Based on CS, EW, and 8dio's Adagio, a full blown orchestral library is going to run the general public about $5k USD, give or take. Let's say 8dio is able to sell 100 copies. I have no idea what sales figures are like, but based on all of the orchestral sample libraries already on the market and in use, you aren't going to get 100s upon 100s of people to plunk down $5k. At least not today. So that's $500k in sales (I also have no idea what the cost/profit is either).
> 
> Based on Spifire's bespoke strings - $5k USD (correct me if I am wrong) - a full blown private orchestral library is going to run "the in crowd" about $20k USD, give or take. In today's market, we'll say $25k USD for 8dio's offering. How many license does 8dio need to sell to get even with what would have been a release to the gen pub?_ Twenty_. I can guarantee you there are more than 20 pro composers that would spend that money, knowing that they were going to get something that very few others had, and that they have something that is not going to be found on a torrent site. Let's say there are 40 of these composers. That's $1M in sales. 8dio has just doubled their money, do not have to worry about the library going warez, and are putting alot less time and effort into support b/c: a) there are less people, and b) the people they are dealing with are professionals - not kids, and other people who are going to complain about this and that b/c they don't know how to get the most out of there samples.
> .



Hold on here, before you get carried away. I have no opinion on whether this is a good or bad idea over all, but I just want to point out 25 = 5x5.

That means, assuming your numbers are meaningful in any way, that 8dio's group of exclusive composers that *purchase* would need to be 20% of the number that would *purchase* it as a public library.

However, the number of buyers is not, in general, inversely proportional to price. If that were the case, you could charge any amount for anything and make the same amount of money. Usually, with something this expensive, the number of buyers falls off FASTER than the price--that's why you're better off trying to sell a million $1 T-shirts than a single million dollar T-shirt.

This means that the exlusive group of composers that 8dio INVITES now needs to be BIGGER than 20% of 8dio's customer base, assuming it wants to make the same kind of profit.

Now, 8dio can probably target customers better than that, since they most likely have connections and know the type of people that would buy this library, but remember, if their goal is actually to make the same amount (or more than) they would with a public library, using your numbers, they have to make 20% as many actual sales as they would with a public library, which means their exclusive group can be NO SMALLER than 20% of the buyers of their typical libraries.

There are a variety of other factors that I'm sure went into the decision to make this a private library. Making the most money they can on this library probably wasn't one of them, though.


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## jamwerks (May 21, 2013)

If if really a private library, it's probably closer to 5%.


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## Kejero (May 21, 2013)

mpalenik @ Tue May 21 said:


> that's why you're better off trying to sell a million $1 T-shirts than a single million dollar T-shirt.



It depends on the product and/or service you're looking to sell. One customer to serve versus one million customers, among which are always a lot of high-maintainance (the cheaper the product, the more demanding your customers!)... Sometimes the choice is easy enough


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## RasmusFors (May 21, 2013)

> Who needs 100 strings / 60 brass sections anyways? "Epic" is dated, intimate is new epic.



Yeah, epic is to mainstream 

*hipster ideology strikes again :roll:


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## mpalenik (May 21, 2013)

Kejero @ Tue May 21 said:


> mpalenik @ Tue May 21 said:
> 
> 
> > that's why you're better off trying to sell a million $1 T-shirts than a single million dollar T-shirt.
> ...



My point is that even extremely rich people aren't going to buy million dollar t-shirts, so selling them at that price isn't economically effective. As I said, there are likely other reasons, aside from maximizing profit, that 8dio or any other company could look to sell to a more exclusive group. Your reason may or may not be one of them, but it doesn't change the fact that they will likely make less money (and they likely know this).


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## mark812 (May 21, 2013)

RasmusFors @ Tue May 21 said:


> > Who needs 100 strings / 60 brass sections anyways? "Epic" is dated, intimate is new epic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Comformist much?


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## RasmusFors (May 21, 2013)

> Comformist much?



It was a joke ...


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## dpasdernick (May 21, 2013)

TheUnfinished @ Mon May 20 said:


> Hehe. Well, I understand much of what you're saying about the cynicism.
> 
> I think the teaser thing has worked in the past, but it has felt a little over-saturated as a premise.* People shouting "I have a great idea! You're gonna love it! But I'm not telling you what it is!" needs a break*, a little moratorium, so that it can be fun again. Or maybe just done with a bit more ingenuity.
> 
> Ah, well... I'm prattling now.



But 8Dio has given us a break with this type of marketing... The text now reads "I have a great idea! You're gonna love it! But I'm not telling you what it is! *AND *You probably can't buy it because you're not in the club"

I do think that this is an interesting topic in that it probably makes all of us wonder "Hmmm, would I be cool enough to be in the club?" Even if you are would you be willing to plunk down 5k for more strings? Or would you spend 5k on a great vacation? Or 5k on hardware and software and lingerie for the wife/girlfriend/blow up doll?

I haven't hit the wall yet with my measly VSL Special Edition and Appasionatta Strings and a terabyte of other libraries I have. I don't need another velocity layer in my string section. I need more talent.

I think Troels is an absolute genius both musically and as a business man. I don't begrudge him at all. I don't want his secret library but I do want to be cool enough to be in the club...


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## Kejero (May 22, 2013)

mpalenik @ Tue May 21 said:


> [...]8dio or any other company could look to sell to a more exclusive group. Your reason may or may not be one of them, but it doesn't change the fact that they will likely make less money (and they likely know this).



Well Troels has mentioned that the idea came from plenty of clients asking for custom samples. That's a term they emphasize in the teaser as well. So I'm thinking that customisation may be part of what you'll purchase as a customer: not just a product, but a service as well. If it is, it makes total sense to limit your user base, because you couldn't possibly provide that kind of service to thousands of clients.

I wouldn't take it for granted either that selling to more people at a lower price will automatiically make you more money than selling more expensive products to less people. You really shouldn't underestimate the costs involved in serving and supporting more customers. That plus the fact that the most demanding customers are those willing to spend the least, and I'm really not convinced they'd stand to make less money with this model.

All that aside, sure it sucks to be excluded from exclusivity. But hey, that's what ambition's for


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## mpalenik (May 22, 2013)

Kejero @ Wed May 22 said:


> I wouldn't take it for granted either that selling to more people at a lower price will automatiically make you more money than selling more expensive products to less people. You really shouldn't underestimate the costs involved in serving and supporting more customers.


Part of me doubts that 8dio throws more money into their customer service department every time they release a library.



> I wouldn't take it for granted either that selling to more people at a lower price will automatiically make you more money than selling more expensive products to less people


That's true, which is why you wouldn't try to sell to everybody at $10. There's usually an optimal point somewhere.



> That plus the fact that the most demanding customers are those willing to spend the least, and I'm really not convinced they'd stand to make less money with this model.



The amount of money they make is Price*number of purchasers. The only question is whether a 1% increase in price creates more than a 1% decrease in the number of purchasers, which is almost certainly the case with something this expensive (and even more true when you add the qualifier that you have to be invited).

Once again, all other arguments aside, this product will most likely make less money for them than it would selling as a moderately expensive orchestral library (unless of course, it comes with some sort of extra service that is truly worthwhile, as you have suggested, but that remains to be seen).

There may be other reasons--either valid and good reasons, or not--for releasing it the way they are, which I've repeatedly acknowledged all along, however, it will almost certainly mean they make less money. Note, that doesn't make it a bad decision or a wrong decision, it's just a simple fact. And why they choose to release it the way they do probably has several factors that influence the decision.


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## valexnerfarious (Aug 23, 2013)

Just saw the news about eligibility..You cant even quality if you have spend $2000 on other 8dio products....to me this is nothing short of shady and greedy


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 23, 2013)

Ha. I saw a Yamaha DX-1 on sale here in town, on Craigslist: 12,000 bucks. Just sayin'.


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Aug 23, 2013)

I saw the email too.

So wait, do you quality and are you a member if you spent over $2000 on 8dio. And is that ongoing? Because I've only spent about $1000. So can I spend $1000 and become a member??


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## valexnerfarious (Aug 23, 2013)

you have to spend $2000 minimum to even quality but that doesnt mean you will even then


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## Greg (Aug 23, 2013)

"On top of the classical orchestral sections, the library comes with custom sampled analog synthesizer ensembles and top of the line modern sound design patches - all created and specifically designed to match perfectly with the sound of the orchestra."

Not sure how I feel about this.. If it achieves the total "Trailer music" sound out of the box.. then still everyones tracks are going to sound even MORE similar. I wish it was just a collection of really amazing and unique libraries, now it sounds like a premade trailer music template.


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 23, 2013)

valexnerfarious @ Fri Aug 23 said:


> you have to spend $2000 minimum to even quality but that doesnt mean you will even then



Here's the exact wording from their Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/v8p.me/posts/226776940780071



> Any 8Dio customer who has purchased more then $1999 will be eligible for the V8P program.



There is no other mention of eligibility or qualifying until the last paragraph of the post.



> All qualifying existing customers will receive a private invitation and instructions on how to join V8P. Invitations will start to go out in medio September.



And finally...



> Once enrolled into the V8P program, you will have access to all of the information and benefits.



So as long as they have records of your purchases, you are in fact guaranteed to qualify. No other criteria (or possible mitigating circumstances) have been outlined at this point in time.


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 23, 2013)

Jeffrey Peterson @ Fri Aug 23 said:


> I saw the email too.
> 
> So wait, do you quality and are you a member if you spent over $2000 on 8dio. And is that ongoing? Because I've only spent about $1000. So can I spend $1000 and become a member??



As mentioned in the post above, their wording does not specify a timeline. The $2,000 is cumulative over the course of your purchasing history unless they contradict their first post later on.

EDIT: So yes, you could spend another $1,000 later on top of the $1,000 you spent already and qualify.


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## j_kranz (Aug 23, 2013)

Sounds very cool! Love the idea of larger than life ensembles. I get some of the criticisms but on the one end we have this and on the other we have the small intimate 'Sable' releases from Spitfire (for instance)... I can't remember a time as composers we've been this spoiled with options, and they keep coming!


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## jtenney (Aug 23, 2013)

Hmmm. Trailer music meets Mahler's Symphony of a Thousand... When this battle is over, who will wear the crown??


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## NYC Composer (Aug 23, 2013)

The world loves a velvet rope keeping out the hoi polloi.

For the amount of money required, I will be expecting an "auto-compose" feature and automatic BMI logging. If it makes coffee as well, sold!


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## valexnerfarious (Aug 23, 2013)

lol


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 23, 2013)

@NYC Composer The collections are "$999 and up" so depending on what they contain, that's about normal for the market.

I mean, that's less than Hollywood Strings cost when it came out.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 23, 2013)

@Per-that's high end, and as far as I kow, no other company has required you to spend $2000 to be considered for membership. Do I have that wrong?


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 23, 2013)

@NYC Composer

Ah, okay: not the price, just the eligibility requirement. Then it depends on how you look at it.

EastWest released EWQLSO Platinum for Kontak/Kompakt in 2004, it cost $2,995. The XP Pro Platinum upgrade the next year was another $2,995.

So if you think of one product requiring another as an "eligibility requirement" for the upgrade, then there's precedent (and of course at a less expensive level we see the same thing in Spitfire Audio Sable, for instance, where several of the programs require samples from an earlier volume).

But if we are talking about eligibility based on potentially unrelated products, then V8P is the first one I know of.

The Spitfire Audio bespoke program requirement were not based on previous purchases obviously and I don't really know of many sample libraries that have tried this approach so far.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 23, 2013)

Much as I'd prefer to simply judge products on their merits/price for performance, I'm an egalitarian fellow. The marketing of these libraries virtually assures that I will never want to purchase them-I find it that off-putting. That's just me- I have no ill will about it all, I wish the developers success, and I hope everyone who purchases them gets great enjoyment and superior utility from them. For me- I find it all pretty humorous. What can I do- I'm a simple peasant!


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## valexnerfarious (Aug 23, 2013)

what really kinda blows is that what if someone who has not purchased any 8dio products wants to buy Eighth Wonder...so in order to get it they would first have to buy 2K of products then the cost of Eight Wonder...thats just to much


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 23, 2013)

@valexnerfarious V8P was always going to have some form of requirment, but honestly I think this is a lot more straightforward and less exclusive than I expected.

One of the other programs by a well-known sample developer required you to apply and have your eligibility determined based on your scoring practices. Here it's "spend at least $2,000 on products to be able to spend at least $999 more on less widely available products".

As far as I'm concerned, the only way it would be a rip-off is if you felt your only option was to buy $2,000 of 8Dio products that you had no use for in order to buy another product that you did have use for.

But I find it difficult to believe that the target markets (one for the mass products and one for the V8P ones) would be so widely differentiated from each other that anyone that would want a V8P product would be unable to find at least $2,000 of products from 8Dio that they also had use for.

I mean at the moment if you bought the "all choirs" and "all Adagio" bundles then that's about $1898 right there. Personally I think that would make sense as an entry point (if you bought both collections you certainly are serious about their products) but I understand it's not a very sexy number.  So basically, if you bought those bundles and either 8Dioboe or Claire Clarinet, you'd be set - but the 8Dio Bassoon would not put you over the top.

So basically, all the orchestral and choral libraries they have right now (in their least expensive bundling) $2,315 and the entry-point for eligibility is $2,000. So it doesn't seem like they are trying to force people to buy unrelated products.

Now, I have no affiliation with 8Dio so I don't know what their thought processes are. But I can tell you that the idea of having two product lines (one less expensive for a mass audience and one more expensive for an audience that wants sample that fewer people have access to initially) seems fair.

Every year I see more and more fantastic sample library developers struggle to make enough off their products (and a sad number of them leaving the market). I like getting inexpensive products and of course from my own perspective it's nice to get as much as I can as quickly as I can with as few pre-requisites as possible - but I don't see anything wrong with companies trying new approaches like this and I don't see it as particularly exclusive.

To me, it's like buying the "Standard" version of a VSL library before I can buy the "Extended" one, except that here the samples might be unrelated.


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 23, 2013)

Okay, here's my complaint for 8Dio: Why are several products not included in the Instrument Map on their site yet?

I mean, I had to go to a whole different page just to view 8Dioboe, Claire Clarinet and the 8Dio Bassoon.

That really does not make any sense, especially since 8Dioboe came out in March. 

EDIT: Also, the "All Woodwinds" bundle needs to be renamed if it isn't going to include those 3 woodwinds.


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## Guido Negraszus (Aug 23, 2013)

I for one will not accept this nonsense. Although I qualify (I spent $2000+ on 8Dio libraries) they will not see a single $ out of my pocket ever again. I believe in fair go. 8Dio should concentrate on making quality libraries and make them available to anyone who can afford it instead of developing a 21st Century divide and conquer business model.


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 23, 2013)

@Guido Negraszus Except that is what they did - the first product just requires $2,000 of other purchases before you can buy it.

There is no additional criteria, no contracts that they have mentioned, etc. it's just that you have to afford $2,000 of their other products before you can start buying these.

It's still making "them available to anyone who can afford it".

Is there another aspect of it that's bothering people?

I could completely understand people being upset if they had to prove that they had scored a certain number of films or something, but this seems about as straightforward as an upgrade program.

And let's be clear: their eligibility requirement is almost exactly the same as the minimum cost of two V8P products. There doesn't seem to be a disproportionate investment required.

I mean, I'd be happier if I could buy the product without worrying about buying others ahead of time but if you are going to do this sort of thing, it seems like a completely fair way to do it: there is no evidence of exclusionary practices based on anything other than the amount of previous purchases.


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 23, 2013)

And to be clear before anyone gets the idea that I'm trying to say "everyone needs to be rich" or anything like that, I became friends with a homeless musician and helped him for 2 years.

When he needed advice about how to get the most bang for the buck for the money he had leftover after feeding himself from the money he made playing on the streets all-day for the week or suggestions about how to record himself, I was happy to help him. When he asked me how to improve as a musician. When he needed a place to clean up for an interview, I helped him. I would help him and never ask for anything in return.

He would never be able to afford these kinds of products (and he would never expect to) but if for some reason it became important to him and he saved up the money, he would be able to buy the products just like anyone else. So I find it hard to get riled up about V8P the way some people are. Who do you feel V8P excludes, exactly?

If you want to get upset, get upset at the places that don't pay their employees enough to live on and then reject potential employees that live on the street (thankfully something he no longer has to deal with now that he's got a place to live and has been able to "move up to" an entry level position Wal-Mart). That's the sort of exclusionary practices to get upset about. Or racism, or sexism or other forms of discrimination like that.

EDIT: Here are some other exclusive ideas that would be frustrating if they were implemented.

- Having to pass a credit check in order to be able to buy certain products, even if you could pay for them.

- Having to submit your Social Security # or show copies of tax documents to be considered.

- Only being able to buy the products if you were a certain nationality.

- Having to pass a language test in order to be able to buy them.

Okay, I'm going off-topic but I think I've made my point. There's nothing exclusive about this club.


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## Guido Negraszus (Aug 23, 2013)

@Per Lichtman
This is how I understand this: certain products will only be available to certain customers. So if someone never before bought a 8Dio product but now wants this new great library they are talking about what is he supposed to do? Buy $2000 worth of products (he possibly didn't want) just in order to buy the product he actually wanted in the first place? I can not for the life of me understand why you would come up with such a ridiculous scheme. There are so many great & proven ways of serving loyal customers (good old 25% discounts etc.) instead of upsetting people like myself.


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 23, 2013)

@Guido Negraszus Another way to look at it is this.

In order to buy a V8P volume, you have to buy most of their other orchestral or choral products first. Except, you can substitute any of their other products towards the same amount if you prefer.

If I wanted the articulations in a VSL Extended library, I would have to buy the ones in the VSL Standard library first - even if I didn't need them or have any use for them.

The difference between that and this is largely an academic one.

I don't want to tell companies how to run their business practices unless.

1) I've been hired to do so.

or

2) I feel that they are hurting people in a rather direct fashion (such as through discrimination).

Those are the sorts of things I would understand getting riled up about.

The methods you mentioned are fine - there's also nothing wrong with what 8Dio is doing here, at least not from my perspective. I mean, it's a pretty small deviation from other practices that people in this forum have tacitly accepted from years from another company.


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 23, 2013)

Here's another way to think of it.

Option A: V8P products are available for $999 to anyone that has spent over $2,000 on 8Dio products in the past.

Option B: A V8P product is only given as a gift to anyone that has spent at least $2,999 on 8Dio products. It is not available for purchase separately.

Is one of these more offensive than the other? Because as a community we seem to have had a more positive response to Option B in the past.


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## valexnerfarious (Aug 23, 2013)

i just dont understand why i just cant drop the price of the V8P library...why must i jump through these hoops and obstacles to buy a library...what ever happen to the days of just coming up with the money for something without having to buy a ton of other stuff.....its like those annoying people that used to call and sell stuff but to get it u had to buy something else before hand..its just pointless and dumb to me and they would sell more if they got rid of this eligibility and buy $2000 before hand garbage


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 23, 2013)

@valexnerfarious Okay so that brings us to option C.

Option C: The first V8P library costs $3,000. Additional V8P libraries are discounted to put them at their current pricing.

Would that be better? No additional purchases would be required and the company would still have made sure that the customer had spent at least $3,000. The difference is that now they would have to do it all at once.


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 23, 2013)

I guess I'm just trying to say that we get frustrated by some very arbitrary things.

- A library as a gift to customers that have bought a ton of stuff in the past.
- A much more expensive library available for purchase directly.
- A library only available to purchase to people that have bought a lot of products in the past.

I mean, assuming you were spending the same amount of money each way, is it really worth getting upset about which method they use to structure their pricing?

And what if they did like some of the telecom companies and offered incentives only to new customers? I mean, how would you feel as an existing customer if someone else could come in and get it for 30% less because it was their "first time purchase"?

I don't see an attempt to alienate anyone here.


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## Ryan99 (Aug 23, 2013)

valexnerfarious @ Fri Aug 23 said:


> i just dont understand why i just cant drop the price of the V8P library...why must i jump through these hoops and obstacles to buy a library...what ever happen to the days of just coming up with the money for something without having to buy a ton of other stuff.....its like those annoying people that used to call and sell stuff but to get it u had to buy something else before hand..its just pointless and dumb to me and they would sell more if they got rid of this eligibility and buy $2000 before hand garbage



I saw on this forum a previous topic about complaints from people when Komplete Ultimate 9 was out, that Heavyocity product owners were feeling cheated because it was included in KU9, that these companies were showing no sign of respect for their previous customers for not getting them any kind of rebate or benefit, etc.

Now a company takes the opposite direction and allows it's most dedicated customers to get some advantages that no one else can, and people are still complaining..

I'm sorry to say this, but if you never bought a single 8Dio product, this company doesn't owe you anything.


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## midi_controller (Aug 23, 2013)

Guido Negraszus @ Fri Aug 23 said:


> I can not for the life of me understand why you would come up with such a ridiculous scheme. There are so many great & proven ways of serving loyal customers (good old 25% discounts etc.) instead of upsetting people like myself.



I know one reason: To prevent piracy.


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## Ryan99 (Aug 23, 2013)

midi_controller @ Fri Aug 23 said:


> Guido Negraszus @ Fri Aug 23 said:
> 
> 
> > I can not for the life of me understand why you would come up with such a ridiculous scheme. There are so many great & proven ways of serving loyal customers (good old 25% discounts etc.) instead of upsetting people like myself.
> ...



You have an excellent point. If you look on the web, a lot of 8Dio products are available from piracy, even some of their most expensive ones and even some with watermarking protection. 

I guess that if someone already paid 2 000$ for 8Dio products and is ready to pay another 1 000$ dollar for a library, he will not want to make it freely available on the web.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 23, 2013)

Don't worry, be happy! Some people buy Lamborghinis, some buy Ford pickups.
It's all good :wink:


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 23, 2013)

@NYC Composer Exactly - and it be pretty darn hard to get a grand piano into a sports car. 

Cool beans.


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## Guido Negraszus (Aug 23, 2013)

@Per Lichtman

You can argue as much as you want and you are not really wrong with your points. However, a simple fact remains: 8Dio is saying to the world: guess what, we came up with this great new library (8W) but not everyone can have it. 

I am 100% convinced that they will actually sell less of 8W than they would have without the VIP league. So why would any business want that? 

I have 18 albums on iTunes for sale. Imagine I would tell my fans this: I just composed the best album ever with a real big Orchestra but you can only buy it if you have bought 10 of my previous albums. Nobody wants to be treated that way.

You are 100% correct. 8Dio have the right to run their business anyway they like but I as a customer also have a right to accept their policies or not and as I said before I will not accept their new VIP model.


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## Guido Negraszus (Aug 23, 2013)

Ryan99 @ 24th August 2013 said:


> midi_controller @ Fri Aug 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Guido Negraszus @ Fri Aug 23 said:
> ...



That doesn't make any sense at all. In fact it will rather encourage piracy.


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 23, 2013)

Guido Negraszus @ Fri Aug 23 said:


> I have 18 albums on iTunes for sale. Imagine I would tell my fans this: I just composed the best album ever with a real big Orchestra but you can only buy it if you have bought 10 of my previous albums. Nobody wants to be treated that way.



@Guido Negraszus I understand your perspective, but I will simply add as an anecdote that you don't have to look much further than crowdfunding to see people going in the opposite direction of the iTunes example.

For instance, years before KickStarter I supported a project called ProjectMajesticMix by KFSS. It was a series of new arrangements of Final Fantasy music. There was acertain edition (with extra songs) that you could only buy if you had contributed money to funding the project (with much of the money having gone towards covering the mechanical licenses before the CDs were made, etc.)

I was happy to contribute to funding the project and happy that I was able to buy a CD with more tracks because of that, than if I had not contributed.

The same type of thing is seen on Kickstarter campaigns all the time: if you contributed money to the project you can buy things that others cannot (or at least buy them earlier). So far most people don't seem to be upset by it.

Artists also often give exclusive bonus tracks to people on their mailing lists and other things of that ilk.

Now if someone had to buy every single thing you had made before, then I would understand being frustrated. So I do see your point there (especially since it sounds like that would involve spending 18 times the purchase price just to be able to purchase it as opposed to just 2 times).

I think that there are matters of degrees, though.


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## midi_controller (Aug 23, 2013)

Guido Negraszus @ Fri Aug 23 said:


> That doesn't make any sense at all. In fact it will rather encourage piracy.



As I seem to recall, the biggest problem with watermarking samples is that most(?) pirated libraries are bought with stolen credit cards, effectively making the watermarking useless. The way that this is set up, it would be almost impossible to buy 8W this way, because an additional verification process to add you into the V8P program would weed out someone using a stolen credit card (unless you are automatically added to the program after you purchase $1,999 worth of software, which I doubt). That sounds like it would work to me. I honestly don't see how this would encourage piracy at all, at least not online piracy.


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## Guido Negraszus (Aug 23, 2013)

@Per Lichtman
Good point. I hate that!  Now you make me feel guilty because I have an extended version (4 bonus tracks) of my new album exclusively on my website. Although it is still not quite the same. We are all working composers (and most of us are certainly not rich) and always happy to get discounts. Take Spitfire for example: I bought Albion, they gave me a 25% discount for future products. Then came Albion 2, bought it with the voucher, then Albion 3 again with a voucher. This is a great and fair system. However, both groups (voucher or not) can buy the same product.


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 23, 2013)

@Guido Negraszus Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing against voucher. if any sample developer is reading this, don't misunderstand me: I like vouchers. 

I'm just also curious to see how the V8P program works out for them and whether it presents any advantages to them that vouchers might not (and @midi_controller has suggested at least one possibility for that so far).


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## Guido Negraszus (Aug 23, 2013)

midi_controller @ 24th August 2013 said:


> Guido Negraszus @ Fri Aug 23 said:
> 
> 
> > That doesn't make any sense at all. In fact it will rather encourage piracy.
> ...



I didn't know that. I always assumed it is pretty much impossible to protect yourself from piracy. Well, if that is correct it is certainly a valid point.


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## G.R. Baumann (Aug 23, 2013)

You know.... as long as the concept is nothing but a concept, and this is the case until the so called "requirements" to gain access are published, I refrain from commenting on this concept. :lol:

By the time it will be released the "epic era" might as well be in it's final days, and someone with a library of orchestral subtleties has succeeded to help create a new "trend" after the latest HZ incarnation used nothing but subtleties. :wink: 

Honestley, with libraries such as spitfire, vsl etc. and the pure excellence and ongoing developments they provide, you will find it very hard to convince me of wanting to be a member of a deep sampled 60 brass and what have you not, because at the end of it, they way I see it, this is a niche sound for a niche market.


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## lumcas (Aug 24, 2013)

I accept and respect 8dio's policy and honestly don't understand why there is so much fuss about it. Take it or leave it, Ferrari doesn't sell to anyone too, Spitfire has it's Bespoke range. It's their product, their decision. If they decided that they would sell it only to left-handed people with perfect pitch, I would still be ok with it (and I'm right-handed).

Listened to the demo and it's nice, but I really don't know what would I do with the wall of sound of 100 strings, 60 brasses and 20 percussionists... - it's just not what I need and make use for.


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## Jem7 (Aug 24, 2013)

Well I just listened demo and indeed it sounds epic and big but you can get similar results by layering a lot. So I'm not impressed a lot yet.


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## RasmusFors (Aug 24, 2013)

I don't understand some arguments here at all. V8p isn't a normal product which requires you to spend a loads of money before buying it, it's an exclusive product for already loyal customers. In my eyes 8dio is rewarding their loyal customers. Yes, they leave out the larger public out in the cold, but they were never intended to have this exclusive library in the first place


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## jgarciaserra (Aug 24, 2013)

Congrats to 8dio for this megaproject! =o 
But I would prefer a very huge update to Adagio series and make it more playable and useful. It seems that "older" projects are abandoned. I know that its hard everybody being satisfied with a product, but in Adagio case a lot of suggestions are made to the series. I LOVE when I feel that a company gets involved in improving a product to make it grow.

Best wishes to 8dio.... and dont forget us Adagio users. :roll: 

Jaume G.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 24, 2013)

RasmusFors @ Sat Aug 24 said:


> I don't understand some arguments here at all. V8p isn't a normal product which requires you to spend a loads of money before buying it, it's an exclusive product for already loyal customers. In my eyes 8dio is rewarding their loyal customers. Yes, they leave out the larger public out in the cold, but they were never intended to have this exclusive library in the first place



...or newly loyal customers who don't mind shelling out $2k for existing products and then MIGHT be deemed worth to join up...ummm. Yes, quite right. Exclusive.

Someone recently informed me about something that I found astonishing- edible gold.
Apperently, this has been around for quite a while and I'm just out of touch-but it seems there is physical gold you can sprinkle on foodstuffs that you then, well- eat.
This specialty item is popular when sprinkled on chocolates and almonds and such. It can enhance the specialness of weddings, corporate parties, etc, so I'm told.

I'm thinking such events are probably quite exclusive.


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## mark812 (Aug 24, 2013)

jgarciaserra @ Sat Aug 24 said:


> But I would prefer a very huge update to Adagio series and make it more playable and useful. It seems that "older" projects are abandoned. I know that its hard everybody being satisfied with a product, but in Adagio case a lot of suggestions are made to the series. I LOVE when I feel that a company gets involved in improving a product to make it grow.
> 
> Best wishes to 8dio.... and dont forget us Adagio users. :roll:



That's exactly why I love companies like Spitfire and have more respect for them. 8dio develops great products, no doubt, but they're much more focused on releasing new library every other week or so than on improving their existing products. Spitfire libraries are truly "living libraries" and lot of other companies could learn a thing or two from them.

Anyway, good luck to 8dio with this release.


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## Pingu (Aug 24, 2013)

The only thing that concerns me is that I've always pre-ordered my 8DIO products. So despite owning all of Adagio and the choirs, I'm not sure I come close to qualifying yet. I guess it's time to hunt through all my email receipts.


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## Stiltzkin (Aug 24, 2013)

I think it's great - I only care that I am able to get the library, I like the idea of being in control of that kind of ensemble if I ever need it, and would like to see what it can do in terms of soft dynamics - large ensembles playing soft is about as good as you can get in my opinion, and while you can achieve it with layering, it's not the same thing.

The marketing is completely understandable in my opinion; they have competition - this is natural in any business environment - they know they are considered among the top developers and they want to reward people who have stuck with them.

For most companies this is just called brand loyalty (hence the loyalty program name rather than "pro" etc) and brand loyalty is far more important for ensuring quality and longivity in a company. They have every right to ensure that people who are fans of 8Dio, their loyal customers, feel even more special for being a loyal customers. In this case this is exactly what you get - if you use and make use of their products, you get more exclusive ones - whats not to love?

If you have never used an 8dio product, or not used enough to spend 2k on them, chances are you aren't going to want to fork out all the money for the whole 8W package anyway because it'd be a big investment that you know nothing about first hand. Whereas for people who HAVE been used to the way their samples work (especially the adagio and the recent software) you know what you're getting in to and chances are you're going to love it.

I'm really looking forward to it, I love their products and attention to detail.

I do wonder though if the same fuss would have been made if this announcement was made by another company like spitfire, who are (from what I've seen) VERY popular on this forum?


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## RasmusFors (Aug 24, 2013)

> ...or newly loyal customers who don't mind shelling out $2k for existing products and then MIGHT be deemed worth to join up...ummm. Yes, quite right. Exclusive.



Yeah, that's the downside to it.

I personally don't feel the need to join this v8p since making own content and samples feels much more exlusive than joining fancy clubs. Plus I don't feel the need of having a 240 piece orchestra.


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## korgscrew (Aug 24, 2013)

Stiltzkin @ Sat Aug 24 said:


> I do wonder though if the same fuss would have been made if this announcement was made by another company like spitfire, who are (from what I've seen) VERY popular on this forum?



There is a lot of love for spitfire here. I understand why. I am a spitfire user, and will always be.

A big part of why they are so popular is that they always surprise and are always updating old libraries. 

Another plus point to spitfire is that they use the engineers we have heard of, scoring stages that are used by top composers and recently got an A list composer (no prizes for guessing) to help create a percussion library, plus got his right hand man to mix it!

They do have a members only library, The requirement is that you use actual musicians.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 24, 2013)

As a veteran, I can tell you that Tonehammer, and then 8dio have gotten a LOT of love from VI-C over the years.


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## Guido Negraszus (Aug 24, 2013)

I would have certainly made the same points, Spitfire, 8Dio or whoever. Spitfire also have a invite only library but they explained very well why and I can understand it. Spitfires explanation rings with me 100%. 8Dios explanation doesn't ring with me at all. In my case I qualify for the VIP thing, so how come I don''t feel special? Now I'm VIP and have the honour to spent $1000+ for yet another Orchestral library. The more I think about it the less it makes sense. Why would I feel special or rewarded? It's not like there are only 10 composers who qualify, there will be most certainly 100s.

I also agree that Spitfires support in product development seems more mature. They keep updating their Albion range regularly. But to be fair, 8Dio also updated Requiem a while ago which I thought was a nice gesture and very good update. Not that someone gets me wrong here. I'm not "against" 8Dio and I also work with their stuff almost daily but that particular change in policy I find very strange.


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## Niah (Aug 24, 2013)

Stiltzkin @ Sat Aug 24 said:


> I do wonder though if the same fuss would have been made if this announcement was made by another company like spitfire, who are (from what I've seen) VERY popular on this forum?



I remember when spitfire wasn't that popular and 8dio was more praised than it is now.
I think on the case of spitfire is simply because the catalog has grown a lot and they have released a lot of products that meet the needs and also the aesthetics of people here. Also very important is that the spitfire products follow the MO than previous libraries and products from other companies. Meaning the way you worked with other libraries before can be used to create music also with the spitfire products. The same I think doesn't apply to 8dio since the Adagio series and so on. It seems to me that quite a few folks are still trying to adapt to a new way of working with these tools making 8dio not as praised or popular as before.

Just my opinion/perception


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## Stiltzkin (Aug 24, 2013)

I wasn't saying that 8dio aren't getting loved, but at present, spitfire are pretty much the ones that if you say a bad word about you'd pretty much be shot out of the forum by the other members.

And I wasn't referring to other types of member programs, I know they have their own ones, I more meant this specific announcement.

I just find it really hard to see why everyone is getting so offended? As if it's a personal attack to each one of you?

I know it's a forum and we're meant to discuss it, and perhaps I'm more layed back than most, but I just can't see how people can take this as 2grand requirement as a big issue - if you think of it as an upgrade it would be completely understandable - as an example:

you have adagio, reqiuem and say... some percussion and a few woodwinds - that's around 2k - the initial 8w library would basically be upgrading them all a crazy amount, it's completely optional - you don't HAVE to, you don't need it to still have the libraries good, but it's only available to you if you have purcahsed the ones before - I can't see how that would be any different? People might be outraged that they have to pay for an upgrade (although one thing I like about the 8dio series is that I've never bought something and felt it needed an upgrade, except for violins, which DID get an upgrade free).


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## Ed (Aug 24, 2013)

Im certainly interested, but Im not sure if I've bought $2k of 8Dio products specifically. I bet it doesnt include Tonehammer, which kind of sucks because I know I've spent over that much if that were included. If I have to wait though its not too bad, also stops me from impulse buying something when I havent got nearly enough out of what I already own. I have to buy Hans Zimmer Percussion of course.

I think the $2k qualifier is kind of a good marketing strategy. Im not upset at all.


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## benmrx (Aug 24, 2013)

It's genius.


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## mark812 (Aug 24, 2013)

Stiltzkin @ Sat Aug 24 said:


> I wasn't saying that 8dio aren't getting loved, but at present, spitfire are pretty much the ones that if you say a bad word about you'd pretty much be shot out of the forum by the other members.



And there are good reasons for it. Spitfire are constantly improving there older products and, if I'm not wrong, just Albion I got more (free) updates and extra sample content than all of the 8dio libraries together.


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## synergy543 (Aug 24, 2013)

Six pages? And nobody mentions the "sound" of the teaser demo (which was V8P on everything but the voices - but it was mostly voices!)

Did you all like it 'so much' that you clamber and argue about the pricing structure?

Even if it had sounded "amazing" (didn't), I wouldn't be interested until they update some of their previous instruments which could use some programming refinements.

Meh... o[])


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## Stiltzkin (Aug 24, 2013)

mark812 @ Sat Aug 24 said:


> Stiltzkin @ Sat Aug 24 said:
> 
> 
> > I wasn't saying that 8dio aren't getting loved, but at present, spitfire are pretty much the ones that if you say a bad word about you'd pretty much be shot out of the forum by the other members.
> ...



The difference being spitfire needed or had room for the extra content when it was released.

Metaphorically speaking, I personally would rather not buy a gear box, knowing that later it will be a finished car - but rather a car straight away.


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## synergy543 (Aug 24, 2013)

Stiltzkin @ Sat Aug 24 said:


> Metaphorically speaking, I personally would rather not buy a gear box, knowing that later it will be a finished car - but rather a car straight away.


Metaphorically speaking, Spitfire is more like a high-end "motor car" than your standard V8.


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## Stiltzkin (Aug 24, 2013)

synergy543 @ Sat Aug 24 said:


> Stiltzkin @ Sat Aug 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Metaphorically speaking, I personally would rather not buy a gear box, knowing that later it will be a finished car - but rather a car straight away.
> ...



Personal preference, but for me, I find spitfire just doesn't live up to 8Dio products - but that's not what this is about, because that discussion can never end. This is about the way in which the products are released and available.


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 24, 2013)

@Synergy543 When you say a "standard v8" oare you comparing that to engines like V12 ones or just to more refined V8s?

And if it's the latter, would a "standard V8" include the ones used in Camaros, Corvettes, Mustangs, Challangers, Chargers, Ferraris (like the California), Lamborghinis (like the Silhouette), Alfa Romeos, Maseratis, and other things of the ilk?

I'm slightly confused by the comparison.


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## bbunker (Aug 24, 2013)

Stiltzkin @ Sat Aug 24 said:


> mark812 @ Sat Aug 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Stiltzkin @ Sat Aug 24 said:
> ...



Now, this just isn't true, or is true for EVERY instrument. What instrument doesn't have room for extra content? There aren't any samplings out there (I may be corrected shortly) of a percussionist spitting on the underside of a snare drum, so then EVERY percussion library has room for the extra content of said spitting. Whether, say, Albion NEEDED the extra content, I think the sheer mileage (to stretch the metaphor a bit too far) that was put on Albion from the time it was released until the first additional content by all kinds of users all over the place proves this to be untrue.

This is a VERY dangerous road to go down (sorry, can't help myself now). If a faulty product is patched to function, then by all means complain about the fact that it wasn't a complete product. On the other hand, Spitfire's trend is to add value to existing products that were already great releases to begin with.

As far as I can tell, your website doesn't mention any Spitfire products in your arsenal, so where are you getting the idea that they've released something in a broken state?

I apologize if I'm being too harsh about this, but I think Spitfire's updates are an awesome case of a developer carrying out their end of the relationship, and constantly working on their already released material to give the end-user maximum content and flexibility.

As for these 8dio developments, is it ironic that Spitfire gets brought up in this conversation? I remember there were a number of complaints back in the days before Albion I (or very near it) about how the bespoke libraries were hoarded away behind Spitfire's ivory towers. 8Dio seems to be taking the same road in the other direction. Heraclitus would be pleased indeed.


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## Stiltzkin (Aug 24, 2013)

bbunker @ Sat Aug 24 said:


> Stiltzkin @ Sat Aug 24 said:
> 
> 
> > mark812 @ Sat Aug 24 said:
> ...



I own a few spitfire products myself and have tried the full albion range through friends also (alongside owning albion 3 myself). I do swear by the spitfire harp as example (it's lovely and probably the best on the market - but it did need the 1.5 update), I have nothing against spitfire, I'm just saying that I find that when released, 8dio products fill a larger chunk of what I expect to have when purchasing something.

In my opinion spitfires updates are warrented by the fact that the prices don't drop over time that I have seen anyway (when you compare them to 8dio/eastwest etc who do drop rather dramatically as time passes - mainly pointing at east west there) they keep their previous products up to date rather than creating a fresh start, and I think that is good reason to keep the price up - would you agree?

I just think that in terms of an argument about updates in the future vs quality on release, 8dio hits the spot for me.


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## KMuzzey (Aug 24, 2013)

I'm really excited for the V8P library. 

And while it never would've occurred to me, I think the anti-piracy argument is probably a pretty good one... people who have already invested $X in your products over time are the ones least likely to be stealing them or sharing them with someone once they've purchased them. Kinda smart, really. Those are your most devoted and loyal customers. If you go back to the earlier part of this thread, it seemed like 8Dio was going to make the library available on an "elite" basis, as in, "we will allow people to buy it if we think they are important enough/successful enough." And that idea turned a lot of people off. But now that that's not the case, and it's based on customer loyalty, that is turning some people off. Either way, people will complain.

Price-wise, the people who are complaining that $999 is too expensive will be the same people who will complain that $299 is also too expensive, and that $199 is too expensive. If you offered it for $99, a subset of those people would ask if they can use an expired coupon for 50% off.

If there was no previous-purchase threshold for buy-in but they used an iLok to help prevent piracy, tons of people would complain about having to use iLok.

I feel like developers can't win in an arena like that. And maybe we ought to remember that they're also people who have to make a living, pay their staff, pay their musicians, and pay their quarterly estimated income taxes. They're not providing a charitable service, they're creating for-profit tools that composers use to make their own profits. And sometimes nice toys are expensive. When I bought the first Symphobia yeeears ago, I thought that $1200 was expensive -- but I'm still using it today, 6-ish years later - so it was a heckuva good investment. Food for thought.

Kerry


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## choc0thrax (Aug 24, 2013)

I'm worried for anyone who can't get into this club since it might slow down development of products for the regular people. Will we still get a new lib every 17 minutes?


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## RiffWraith (Aug 24, 2013)

I am very disappointed at this idea, and Troels' approach. He obviously does not know what he is doing here.

No 20-person cowbell ensemble? WTF???


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## snowleopard (Aug 24, 2013)

I'm with Ed. I'm probably a couple purchases from the $2k mark, but don't intend on buying 8W anyway, as it doesn't fit my style of music. Still, I support Troels decision to take 8dio in whatever direction he sees best. My only concern is that it may not sell much, thus drain financial resources needed to update older libraries, as others have mentioned. Would love to see 8dio update Hybrid Tools 1 and both Rhythmic Aura GUIs to operate like Hybrid Tools 2, for example. 

Everyone giving props to Spitfire, but you could praise or criticize any number of companies along a similar line. Sample Logic for example, you could give them huge props for they did with Synergy, turning into Synergy X, amazing. But you could also ask when this is coming to Air, Elements, etc. instead of concentrating so much on new products.


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## Ganvai (Aug 25, 2013)

I don't know if it will be a good lib. Yeah it sounds big and epic but as somebody said before, you can do a lot with layering. 

But I must admit that this is the greatest marketing strategy ever. To said that this brouhaha gets more important than anything else.


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## G.R. Baumann (Aug 25, 2013)

Soneeeh Pictures announce release of the first 8k-4D-SPP, Soneeeh-Private-Pictures film in 2014. This 1.95 billion dollar production will not be made available to the public but an exclusive club of Soneeeh customers who meet the requirements outlined on the Soneeeh feckbook page.

Out of the 185 Soneeeh releases to date you have to have proove of purchase of at least 74 previous releases, this will gain you access to the 1st 8k-4D-SPP release, King-Kong & Alien vs. Blues Brothers & Lara Croft.

The 8k-4d-SPP price for this 9.5 hours blockbuster will be 499 Dollar. 

Join our feckbook page and send us proof of purchase from your previous 74 films and we will email instructions on how to order this amazing product.


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## germancomponist (Aug 25, 2013)

KMuzzey @ Sat Aug 24 said:


> I'm really excited for the V8P library.
> 
> And while it never would've occurred to me, I think the anti-piracy argument is probably a pretty good one... people who have already invested $X in your products over time are the ones least likely to be stealing them or sharing them with someone once they've purchased them. Kinda smart, really. Those are your most devoted and loyal customers. If you go back to the earlier part of this thread, it seemed like 8Dio was going to make the library available on an "elite" basis, as in, "we will allow people to buy it if we think they are important enough/successful enough." And that idea turned a lot of people off. But now that that's not the case, and it's based on customer loyalty, that is turning some people off. Either way, people will complain.
> 
> ...



+1

A good post!


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## Resoded (Aug 25, 2013)

G.R. Baumann @ 25th August 2013 said:


> Soneeeh Pictures announce release of the first 8k-4D-SPP, Soneeeh-Private-Pictures film in 2014. This 1.95 billion dollar production will not be made available to the public but an exclusive club of Soneeeh customers who meet the requirements outlined on the Soneeeh feckbook page.
> 
> Out of the 185 Soneeeh releases to date you have to have proove of purchase of at least 74 previous releases, this will gain you access to the 1st 8k-4D-SPP release, King-Kong & Alien vs. Blues Brothers & Lara Croft.
> 
> ...



That's not really a fair comparison. Movies often have exclusive openings at select theaters. Since a lot of people are attracted to exclusivity, and since some people in the sample world are concerned with everyone using the same tools, 8dios marketing is quite sound. For me personally, this is out of my price range, but I bet people who work regularly with trailers would love to have 8w, especially if the competition can't afford it. It gives them an edge in, as far as I know, a highly competitive market. Personally, I find exclusivity to be a bit off putting, mostly because it seems to be more about being exclusive rather than that the product has some special use, but in this case the exclusivity has a good reason.


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## wst3 (Aug 25, 2013)

I for one am thrilled that a developer is reaching for the moon once again!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 25, 2013)

+100


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## TuomasP (Aug 25, 2013)

Heh just finished up browsing my Paypal history and even though I qualify if its 999$ at least per collection and if collection is like Strings / Brass / Woodwinds / Percussion / Synth, it's gonna be huge hit to my wallet :O
let's see when there is more demos how all the collections sound like separately...


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## valexnerfarious (Aug 25, 2013)

reaching for the moon as far as the price goes


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## Stiltzkin (Aug 25, 2013)

I was expecting a lot more considering the scale of the sections actually.


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## KingIdiot (Aug 25, 2013)

wacky entitlement arguments supporting both sides.... weird.

"epic is dead"

2015's release schedule would like to have a word with you. So will lots of game developers for the next few years.

Take a step back folk. It's just a library. Made through mostly a labor of love from a developer. HE wants to share it with his loyalist of customers. It wasn't a "hey you know what the midimockuper needs now?! a 4923538 piece orchestra that's gonna cost me way too much to record, but I'm not gonna skimp and just build it with recording separate sections and mixing"

I've internet known Troels for a few years now, and yes I've even done little bits of work for 8dio sporadically for the past year or two. I credit him with being one of the few guys out there helping me to get back on my feet and focus again. So yeah, I can't say I'm not going to have some bias subconsciously or consciously. But most know me here to be as transparent as I can, depending on NDAs and how sue happy people ike to be about pictures of earplugs and comics. It's new of the reasons I try my best to work with multiple developers instead of one. It helps temper those biases.

/deisclamer

The dude is at his best when he stays primarily in his favorite mode. Which is being a "man it'd be cool if" guy, who follows through on getting those things done. There are definitely aspects to 8dio stuff that is market filling tools, and those are very recognizable. They still fall in the "it would be cool place", but v8 is just straight up dude going all out on something he dreamed up as an idea. Being around and hearing him talk about it early on, it was impossible to not hear the passion he had for it. He has it for all the things he does, but this thing was one of those things that you could hear him feel like a kid with. So when I look at all of this stuff about the qualifiers, all I see is an opportunity for the fervent customers who've helped give him the opportunity to do this to share in a personal project.

Sure, the marketing/sales bullet points seem a bit abrasive, when broken down to the ones people make them out to be here, and I've not been the biggest fan of some of 8dio's past marketing exploits. I totally get how it rubs people in this niche community the wrong way. So I get the grrr-ness. There's a very hands off/forums off place that some developers get pushed into, because it's very much that you can't win, and you have to go with your gut. Otherwise you end up playing a defensive game trying to please a small vocal group instead of making quality stuff. Validation comes in the sound of product itself sometimes. And, ...let's face it. As much as this a wonderful hub of creativity and potential customers, it's still a small vocal group, and does not exactly reflect the actual market/markets.

with all that said. I finally got to hear some of the v8 quicky demos not long ago. It's definitely very unique, and gargantuan sounding. Different and, to my ears, more organic sounding than building it all in sound design/mixing. I'm a fan of how rooms build up certain overtones and change response with the more sound pressure you throw at it, and how early reflections change/mute under that much volume. You can almost hear the fun in the recordings. There's a character to them, that lends towards you almost having to just shrug with a smile and laugh at how ridiculous it sounds, and I mean that in the best possible way. It's ridiculous at times. I wish I had the time to bug him for a copy to play with, but I'm busy with other stuff, but believe me, I'm thinking about other ways to be loyal to this guy that doesn't have me on my knees, even if that's what it seems like I'm doing metaphorically here, because I want to play with it (the library) just as much as some of you here do.

There is part of me that thinks that this library really isn't for everyone anyway. It takes some real will to step beyond traditional notions to constantly work with sounds this massive. Sure you could load up a big brass patch to just make your brass "bigger sounding", but to actually use such saturated sounds, and use them well. Maybe it's a good thing that it doesn't saturate the market as much as the recordings themselves are.

I really don't know what I'm saying here, probably not much. Part of me knows that I'm just adding another vice to the noise, but I feel that sometimes I do have a uniquely personal take that, if anyone wants to take the time to read, might help bring some level of more perspective.

if not I'll gladly take back my glasses. I can't see that well without them these days.


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## jamwerks (Aug 25, 2013)

Kudos to 8dio for daring such a big production. They must have shelled out lots of dough to make this happen. Hats off for that.

I like also their $2k thing (though I'm presently $1k short). Seems fair and win-win for all.

I remember reading months back that Vol II for Adagio had already been recorded. Hope that will soon be in my template.


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 25, 2013)

@KingIdiot Thanks for sharing that - I think the best each of us can do is call it as we see it and explain that as clearly as we can.

I don't have the personal Internet experience with Troels that you do, but that "this is something he's really excited about" vibe is certainly what I got so far, too.

I think that's part of what's been making the sample library landscape a particularly interesting place in recent years: different people, with different visions, creating tools to realize their passions and selling them to others to do the same.

Some of us will resonate more with one vision than another, and that's why it's so great that we aren't limited to just one.

One thing that I'd be curious to hear in the new library would be slow or sustaining passages in a quieter dynamic. There's something about the sound of a large ensemble playing very quietly that can be very smooth yet evocative and I'm curious to hear whether it's one of the aspects that was captured.


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## midi_controller (Aug 25, 2013)

jamwerks @ Sun Aug 25 said:


> I remember reading months back that Vol II for Adagio had already been recorded. Hope that will soon be in my template.



This I am interested in. If they can fix some of the shortcomings that I've found with Violins Vol. I, I'll be more than happy to look at the rest of the series. After all, it really does have a fantastic sound to it. Any more information on this? I'd love to put it in the confirmed section of my "Orchestral samples on the horizon" thread.


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## FredrikJonasson (Aug 25, 2013)

Resoded @ Sun Aug 25 said:


> G.R. Baumann @ 25th August 2013 said:
> 
> 
> > Soneeeh Pictures announce release of the first 8k-4D-SPP, Soneeeh-Private-Pictures film in 2014. This 1.95 billion dollar production will not be made available to the public but an exclusive club of Soneeeh customers who meet the requirements outlined on the Soneeeh feckbook page.
> ...



It's very funny however :D It says something about the company's marketing strategies which I personally find quite tiresome. Perhaps smart, but so salesman-ish. But for a mere mortal such as myself I guess it's better that I eventually - someday - would be able to buy the product, not like similar strategies with invites and stuff. About the exclusive opening nights - here's it's the whole product we're talking about and not just having to wait a bit longer.

I'm sure the product will be quite nice. Interesting about the synthetic material, I liked that combination in Albion so I'm sure it could be awesome.


----------



## Resoded (Aug 25, 2013)

FredrikJonasson @ 25th August 2013 said:


> Resoded @ Sun Aug 25 said:
> 
> 
> > G.R. Baumann @ 25th August 2013 said:
> ...



True, just saying that the movie business also creates exclusivity for the sake of being exclusive, even though as you point out movies eventually are available for everyone.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 25, 2013)

Hey Ashif

R E S P E C T !


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## KingIdiot (Aug 26, 2013)

Back at you Ned, and the rest of you guys, as well as the devs man. I definitely don't mean to step on toes on either side, just laying it out there, because I think some things are getting lost in the upper-mid harshness here.

There's a place where things start to veer into aggressive vocalizations and POVs. Everyone of them comes from valid concerns, I don't mean to suggest that they aren't. We're all allowed to have them based on our own perceptions/perspectives. Call it like we see it, like Per said, but it sucks that some of the discussions turn into Batfleck territory, and it just feels easier for lots of devs to take steps back and let things play out however they do. Not to mention, no one has the dedicated time to get in everyone's territory and still make great product.

I've never been fond of this positioning that's taken hold, maybe I have too much empathy for both sides, maybe I just like talking (that's definitely it). Sometimes it takes another voice out there to say "hey dudes... simmah down, we're getting ahead of ourselves and assumptions are rally starting to get in the way of things." Without the snarkyness that prevails on forums/social media... and you guys have no idea how hard it is to not be snarky when you've seen Buffy a gajillion times.

It's crazy the way people get demonized here sometimes though. It bums me out, I'd probably have done great in the 60's until a really bad acid trip.

Also, I know I sound hypocritical, since I poke fun at some things from the past a lot... A LOT.... but seriously, jackass behavior, doesn't get love from me, unless it's coming form me and the transparency that I like to convey when doing so. It does mean that my opinion is still my own, from my own experience... so salt, grains, grinders, stews,, whatever cliche goes here. We're all building form the same things. Experiences.

I've said it before, we've got awesome tools here man, and more awesome ones coming. Stuff like this, and consumer's wanting more of it, is just gonna make developers compete harder and come up with more. All you guys benefit. Me too if they hire me to edit! Win/Win/Win More acid (jazz) trips for everyone!


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## NYC Composer (Aug 26, 2013)

KingIdiot @ Mon Aug 26 said:


> Back at you Ned, and the rest of you guys, as well as the devs man. I definitely don't mean to step on toes on either side, just laying it out there, because I think some things are getting lost in the upper-mid harshness here.
> 
> There's a place where things start to veer into aggressive vocalizations and POVs. Everyone of them comes from valid concerns, I don't mean to suggest that they aren't. We're all allowed to have them based on our own perceptions/perspectives. Call it like we see it, like Per said, but it sucks that some of the discussions turn into Batfleck territory, and it just feels easier for lots of devs to take steps back and let things play out however they do. Not to mention, no one has the dedicated time to get in everyone's territory and still make great product.
> 
> ...



I'm down with all of that, but reiterating, I think this sort of marketing is somewhat off-putting and is likely to alienate some portion of the library buying populace. I'm not even going to get into all the "greatest, most articulations, most deeply sampled, most expressive" P.T. Barnum-esque marketing hyperbole that's so pervasive these days (oh wait, I just did :wink: ). In the end, everyone will do what they will and like what they like, and buy what they buy, hey? Still and all, this IS a forum, civilly stated points of view should be welcome, and no one is the ultimate arbiter of reason on subjective matters.


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## KingIdiot (Aug 26, 2013)

agreed, and I'm definitely not trying to be that. I think civilized discussion, and even passionately is needed. It's where we get together to talk. You should see me piss off my friends when I talk movies and TV. I LOVE discussion. I dislike entitlement. Trust, that I love sarcasm and wit, just not circus clowns.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 26, 2013)

KingIdiot @ Mon Aug 26 said:


> agreed, and I'm definitely not trying to be that. I think civilized discussion, and even passionately is needed. It's where we get together to talk. You should see me piss off my friends when I talk movies and TV. I LOVE discussion. I dislike entitlement. Trust, that I love sarcasm and wit, just not circus clowns.


. 

Agreed. Cheers! o-[][]-o


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## Daniel James (Aug 26, 2013)

Its a niche product, distributed in a niche way, to an already niche audience. I totally understand why the price is high. 

I will be interested to see how this goes, bold move for sure 

-DJ


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## NYC Composer (Aug 26, 2013)

Daniel James @ Mon Aug 26 said:


> Its a niche product, distributed in a niche way, to an already niche audience. I totally understand why the price is high.
> 
> I will be interested to see how this goes, bold move for sure
> 
> -DJ



Just to be totally clear, I haven't said a thing about the pricing of the product itself. That's another matter entirely.


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## Ed (Aug 26, 2013)

Daniel James @ Mon Aug 26 said:


> Its a niche product, distributed in a niche way, to an already niche audience. I totally understand why the price is high.
> 
> I will be interested to see how this goes, bold move for sure
> 
> -DJ



What I think is like Spitfire and the PP (Project Prague) private libs, it still pushed commercial libs to become better and try new things even though pretty much no one could own them, even less with PP.


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## quantum7 (Aug 26, 2013)

I found the 6 pages of this thread so interesting that I almost forgot to listen to the demo link that came in my e-mail from 8dio the other day. The demo sounds great...not sure that couldn't have been done with existing libs, but regardless, kudos to 8dio for trying something new, and I wish them the best of success.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 26, 2013)

Catching up on stuff here... I just listened to the demo.

Well, most of it.

I think I'd best.. uh.... leave you all to it. Live and let live and all that.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 26, 2013)

Ed @ Mon Aug 26 said:


> Daniel James @ Mon Aug 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Its a niche product, distributed in a niche way, to an already niche audience. I totally understand why the price is high.
> ...



Being a centenarian, I have seen the envelope pushed farther than I could have imagined, so you're right, that is a definite positive.


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## musophrenic (Aug 26, 2013)

Interesting conversation  I'm personally interested in this whole idea. Heard the 8Wdemo and enjoyed it a lot. That said, I've found that I'm probably easily entertained. I'm still very opinionated, but I like to enjoy things for what they are. 8W is definitely a niche product in that it won't work for everything - if you've used ICENI, you know what I mean. 

Also, thanks for weighing in, KingIdiot. I love the irony of your username - nothing you said in this thread is the least bit idiotic. 

I'm just wondering - while Troels and Colin had that orchestra there in that hall, did they get them to record one of their pieces as well? The one time I had a 45-person orchestra realise something I created, I was excited as hell ... can't imagine what it would be like with 240 players!


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## peksi (Aug 27, 2013)

the demo is massive all right!  but i'd put a lot of credit on troels' great skills aswell. he does very impressive stuff.

what i am afraid is increased piracy with this one. we'll see the same effect we saw with alcohol bans decades ago. if people want something they cannot get then there will always be those who deliver and since many composers can never reach for the library the temptation is great. 8dio should consider that side effect too.

but it is a very nice gesture for their loyal customers, respect that a lot.


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## Damon (Aug 27, 2013)

Well one things for sure and awesome with the new libraries these days...NO MORE SUCTION!


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## choc0thrax (Aug 27, 2013)

Wow, KingIdiot... Damon... talk of PP... I feel like I stepped into a time machine. Thanks 8dio!


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## muziksculp (Aug 27, 2013)

Damon @ Tue Aug 27 said:


> Well one things for sure and awesome with the new libraries these days...NO MORE SUCTION!



Haha.. Yes, we sure had a lot of _Suction Strings_ in the past, and they won't be missed :lol:


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## KingIdiot (Aug 27, 2013)

seriously... Jumping back into the fold here has been nostalgic.

I LOVE that there's so many developers and healthy competition, but the influx of new users and change, sometimes makes the community aspect and developer relationships for some, feel really standoffish and, .. again, strangely entitled.

I always felt these communities worked best with interaction and good discussion instead of "rabble rabble rabble". It's awesome to come in and see developers I have no idea/clue who they are and encouraging and helping that.

It's sad. I hear it from both sides, consumers and product makers. I can understand both points and generally agree with both sides, but sometimes I feel like there's a whole bunch of tunnel vision happening. Which might be required to get anything done.

I'm trying to cook some things up for myself in the near future, to keep involved in both the developer's scenes and the community's scene, so expect me to be around a bit more.

I want to use my current/recent jump back into the world of editing/programming to build some new ways to interact with you all again. It was fun for a while, I want to see if there's a way to do something fun and interactive, and hopefully not go broke form it.

credit goes to a bunch of the old guys, like Troels and friends, for pulling me back in. They kinda saved me from even more obscurity. Be sure there's still a lot of ideas floating around in my noggin, and a TON more for me to learn and dream up, and even some I'll never grasp that other people are doing. Good times out here man. So much to want to play with!


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## constaneum (Aug 27, 2013)

When hearing about private library with superb sound, basically that's what i called "Double Standard". What you can get publicly/commercially will have a low-normal quality sound but those private specially customised library will have superb high end quality sound. In a way, you're basically hinting that "hey !! With the ordinary purchased sound, you will never be able to achieve superb sound??" hmmm.....


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 27, 2013)

@constaneum Except that is not the case. The selling point for the 8W product is that it is an entirely differently sized ensemble. The existence of one ensemble does not mean that another size is somehow "bad" or "less" good - it's just different. 

There was nothing about the 8W demo that made me think less of Adagio (or of other competing libraries for that matter). It just seemed like a very different orchestral sound and I'm curious to hear how they have developed that sound.

It's more like "if you want to write with an unusual size ensemble, you can buy this after you've bought our other orchestral sounds" or something else in that vein.


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## KingIdiot (Aug 27, 2013)

I"m not really sure where v8P get's pigeonholed into the private lib, since it is being offered for sale.

I know there was talk about other private libs form people including PP. The thing to recognize about that, is sometimes they are done quickly without "consumer level" standards that people define by such broad extremes of wants. The great thing about developers doing stuff like this, is that they learn what works for them and figure out how to accommodate users with those tools to their expectations for future releases.

Sometimes it's about added exclusivity for a little while. There's the old famous Voices of the Apocalypse clause that was around for it's inception


Still in the end when there's this focus of "I want it now mommy!!!" for a product that might be out of your reach on price. I tend to wonder where the level of individual ingenuity is. Are we all just so spoiled? I really want V8P, I really want some Project SAM stuff, I really want Sample Modelling stuff, I really want more Vienna stuff. I can't afford a bit of it right now, sometimes I get shit for free sometimes not... it doesn't stop me from trying to push the tools I do have/can afford. They can do much more than "out of the box".

The same level of exclusivity that people who get V8P can be attained to a higher degree by doing some sampling/tweaking on your own. Of course not the SAME sound, but something that might inspire you the same way, or fit the needs of what you're trying to achieve.

I'll never get the clamor to be just like everyone else, as if having the same tools was some sort of leveling the playing field. It's not meant to be level, because if you think you're on a field, you're only bat'ing trying to hit it out of the prk instead of playing quiddich, or even fucking blitzball

I bet you could take your existing brass and layer it with the marcatto patches and put it in some ver/impulses, slam the crap out of it in a multiband comp limiter, sample it chromatically at 2 velocities, load those back into Kontakt and make and awesome giganto brass patch in 10-20 mins. Yah it wont be the same as V8, and I'm sure they've gone into awesome programming and tricks, but ... you know what IT'S YOURS. Totally unique to you and your settings and however you mixed it. Shape it with compressors and you can have a totally awesome pumping attack.

Don't be a slave to the developer's whims, and they wont constantly be trying to only please you, or their wallets. In fact, do something awesome and they might take note and learn from you

that's how this whole sample in a hall thing started. Tob did percussion samples in a church a while back to piss people off, and then Maarten did the first Project sam free trumpet demos to test articulations and playability.

Innovation can be in your hands just as much as theirs. Don't give them all the power, it should be mutually shared.

Don't even give a though the idea that what you have isn't good enough, and then you reach to push further with what you have.

and really... if private stuff is what you're looking for. It's not that much more to get together with some friends and do it yourself. Even a slightly messed up private library is unique and useful/helpful

that's for sure what PP was. rough around the edges.


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 27, 2013)

@KingIdiot As soon as you mentioned blitzball I had "Otherworld" playing in my head. I'm off-topic, but those were still good times.


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## StatKsn (Oct 13, 2013)

Hmm, so apparently I am a "V8P" now. I don't know where to say so I would like to put it here.

At a glance, there is nothing really special about the members area yet, except it has 8W - but even the design is mostly same. One thing surprised me is that there is no comments section like the old site. If V8P is truly for tailor-made individualized libraries like advertised, how could we discuss about what we want to see or hear - or are "VIP"s supposed to use the Facebook page, which currently operates just like any other corporate Facebook page - i.e. mostly announcements and sales talk?

I remember in the days of early 8dio, comments section had a nice bunch of suggestions and impressions directly linked to the libraries. In fact, it felt private, personal and special.

I am nothing against their endeavor and the concept of 8W. However I would like to see more bold move towards the customers if V8P is indeed a way to get us and the developers closer; I believe they are planning a Spitfire-like model, which is highly welcome.


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## tmm (Oct 13, 2013)

StatKsn @ Sun Oct 13 said:


> Hmm, so apparently I am a "V8P" now. I don't know where to say so I would like to put it here.



Ah, nice! Still waiting on my invite. I already have $ set aside for 8W, purchasing pretty much on the spot.


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## doctornine (Oct 14, 2013)

Well apparently I'm a V8P as well.

Who knew ?

~o)


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## procreative (Oct 14, 2013)

I am too!

However I still am not sure about this product or buying more 8dio stuff.

Thing is I bought into the whole Adagio series but feel there is still a lot of unfinished elements to it and some bugs that have been left unfixed for some time. Like the Logic issue where instruments in templates need to have the Expression cc tweaked otherwise the volume is off.

I am just starting to be more careful where I spend my money as some developers put more effort into putting out new product at the expense of timely fixes to existing product and others manage both.

The concept of 8W sounds great, however its pricey based on the fact to qualify you probably have many of the components already albeit in slightly smaller ensemble form. And the articulations list could be bigger.

It just feels like a very expensive version of Albion. But maybe thats me.


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## tmm (Oct 14, 2013)

Got my invite shortly after making my post (above)  I don't imagine 8Dio's watching that closely, but funny coincidence.

Checked through all the specs, and it looks like I'm going to be forced to go 8W-Black. It has options I can't do without (won't go into too much detail until I start seeing if it's okay to do so), so that's how it has to be.

Re: 'a very expensive version of albion' - the only similarities are that it's orchestral ensemble patches and that it includes synth sounds. Pretty much everything else is different... where it was recorded, which / how many instruments are included in the sections, mics used / mic positions / number of mics, number of articulations, etc, etc. Then there's the percussion in 8W... not the same as Albion's. Different ballpark, and rightfully so, considering the price.

Then there's just the difference in tones that comes from the ears of those that developed it - that was the #1 reason I wanted to buy 8W. I have yet to purchase an 8Dio product that I didn't love the tone of, and I have 13 or 14 now. Can't say the same for SF (of which I own 1 (Albion) + all the SF Labs offerings), which isn't to say that it doesn't sound great, just that I've learned it's not the sort of tone I'm after.


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## procreative (Oct 14, 2013)

Well I hope you are pleased with it then, each to their own choices.

I do like the concepts of 8Dio's products and obviously if I did not own lots I would not have qualified! So I am not a hater of 8Dio.

Yes it has more Mics and is recorded in a different space. However Albion and their other titles were recorded in Air which is a much used scoring space used on Batman, Harry Potter etc, it comes down to personal taste what you prefer. But Air is probably a costlier space to record in than the un-named "Symphony Hall".

If like me you bought the whole Adagio series, it makes it a harder choice to make. 

I am still a little unsure how I feel about the lack of updates/fixes or any concrete news on when/if they might be done. I have raised this many times with 8Dio, I feel they still need to take this fully on board as the more complex/pricey libraries get the more part of the decision becomes also based on a developers interest in addressing issues particularly as there is a lot of competition in orchestral sampling.

This is a different product and yes it has more detail than Albion, but not that much more in the way of articulations -- for the price --. For this much money I think I would need to see far more in walkthroughs, but doubt I will see enough before release.


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## synthetic (Oct 14, 2013)

I agree with whoever said this will be a good way to combat piracy. And who are you people who haven't spent 2k at 8dio? (Though I haven't seen my email yet. Maybe it doesn't include Tonehammer Purchases.) 

I also think it's interesting that five years ago we were excited about divisi libraries so that it didn't sound like 80 violins playing. Where today it's all, "WE RECORDED 80 VIOLINS PLAYING!"


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## Ed (Oct 14, 2013)

synthetic @ Mon Oct 14 said:


> . And who are you people who haven't spent 2k at 8dio?



Well thing is I spent a lot of money with Tonehammer, so Im not sure, and I bet that doesnt count...

No email yet :(


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## muziksculp (Oct 14, 2013)

synthetic @ Mon Oct 14 said:


> I agree with whoever said this will be a good way to combat piracy. And who are you people who haven't spent 2k at 8dio? (Though I haven't seen my email yet. Maybe it doesn't include Tonehammer Purchases.)
> 
> I also think it's interesting that five years ago we were excited about divisi libraries so that it didn't sound like 80 violins playing. Where today it's all, "WE RECORDED 80 VIOLINS PLAYING!"



I would imagine 80 violins playing sound like a synthy string pad sound :lol:


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## Maestro77 (Oct 14, 2013)

I also hope they'll include Tonehammer purchases when totaling up each customer's sales. If so I can expect an invite. If not I may fall a little short.


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## Ed (Oct 14, 2013)

muziksculp @ Mon Oct 14 said:


> I would imagine 80 violins playing sound like a synthy string pad sound :lol:



I bet its still not big enough for me. #thatswhatshesaid


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## StatKsn (Oct 14, 2013)

procreative @ Mon Oct 14 said:


> I am still a little unsure how I feel about the lack of updates/fixes or any concrete news on when/if they might be done. I have raised this many times with 8Dio, I feel they still need to take this fully on board as the more complex/pricey libraries get the more part of the decision becomes also based on a developers interest in addressing issues particularly as there is a lot of competition in orchestral sampling.



Frankly speaking, I have been a bit disappointed by recent moves from 8dio too. So many new products and promotional stunts, but no updates on existing libraries. I am still hoping for a Liberis expansion or an update :wink:


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## eschroder (Oct 14, 2013)

Unfortunately, Tonehammer purchases don't count... I just asked :/


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## jleckie (Oct 14, 2013)

V8 P me baby. Bring it on!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 15, 2013)

What happens when we play 4-note chords with the strings and brass layered? 640 instruments?!! Crazzzzeeee, in a good way.


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## quantum7 (Oct 15, 2013)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Oct 15 said:


> What happens when we play 4-note chords with the strings and brass layered? 640 instruments?!!



May cause a brain seizure if your not careful. >8o


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## m-tron (Oct 15, 2013)

i got my invitation yesterday, so i'm obviously a fan of several of 8dio's libraries (especially adagio and their percussion). but i agree with some of the other posters that i'd like to see 8dio update more of their existing libraries (especially adagio, which was a big investment) before i jump into buying yet another new library. that, and i really don't have much day-to-day need for such a huge sounding library. but i could definitely go for some adagio-flavored instruments (expressive - like the blakus cello), especially if they're solo instruments or very small ensembles.


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## Ian Dorsch (Oct 15, 2013)

eschroder @ Mon Oct 14 said:


> Unfortunately, Tonehammer purchases don't count... I just asked :/



Well, I guess that counts me out.


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## Chriss Ons (Oct 15, 2013)

m-tron @ Tue 15 Oct said:


> i got my invitation yesterday, so i'm obviously a fan of several of 8dio's libraries (especially adagio and their percussion). but i agree with some of the other posters that i'd like to see 8dio update more of their existing libraries (especially adagio, which was a big investment) before i jump into buying yet another new library.



My situation/sentiments, as well.


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## tob (Oct 16, 2013)

choc0thrax @ Tue Aug 27 said:


> Wow, KingIdiot... Damon... talk of PP... I feel like I stepped into a time machine. Thanks 8dio!



Time machine indeed, hehe. Hi everyone!  Took a few years long break from composing and just recently started to look into all the new fantastic sounding libs out there. 

/Tobias


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## choc0thrax (Oct 16, 2013)

tob @ Wed Oct 16 said:


> choc0thrax @ Tue Aug 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, KingIdiot... Damon... talk of PP... I feel like I stepped into a time machine. Thanks 8dio!
> ...



/slap Tob 

Choco slaps Tob around a bit with a large trout


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## jamwerks (Oct 16, 2013)

m-tron @ Tue Oct 15 said:


> ...i agree with some of the other posters that i'd like to see 8dio update more of their existing libraries (especially adagio, which was a big investment) before i jump into buying yet another new library. that, and i really don't have much day-to-day need for such a huge sounding library


My thoughts exactly! It is nice to hear Troels excited about this new adventure. But..., at the time Adagio came out, they spoke about a Vol II. And about a year ago, they said to have completed the recordings. And if I remember correctly, they even gave a tentative timeline for release.

I haven't seen any posts from them talking about Adagio, for a loooong time here, even when it was kind of requested that they chime in. Adagio has lots of strong points, but some weak points also (hard or impossible to do fast legato lines, a few missing arts, etc).

They of course have the right to do what they want, and reveal info as they desire. But it's also important to "support" your products and respect your word, especially in this nitch industry.


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## Ed (Oct 16, 2013)

tob @ Wed Oct 16 said:


> choc0thrax @ Tue Aug 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, KingIdiot... Damon... talk of PP... I feel like I stepped into a time machine. Thanks 8dio!
> ...



Holy mother of crap did I just enter an interdimentional rift that took me back to the mid 2000s???!!! 

Tob!!!! When you gonna come out with the next G-Town and change the industry again??!!!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 16, 2013)

Wow, who's next? Donnie Christian?

RESPECT, Mr. G-Town! _-)


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## stonzthro (Oct 16, 2013)

G-Town! Still on my hard drive - welcome back Tobias!


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## midi_controller (Oct 16, 2013)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Oct 16 said:


> Wow, who's next? Donnie Christian?



I still have his Celesta, and all the G-Town stuff. Good samples never lose their usefulness. :D

I'm also wondering what happened to Adagio Vol. II. Didn't they ask for suggestions for it as well? Weird that it just kind of disappeared.


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## Hans Adamson (Oct 16, 2013)

tob @ Wed Oct 16 said:


> Time machine indeed, hehe. Hi everyone!  Took a few years long break from composing and just recently started to look into all the new fantastic sounding libs out there.
> 
> /Tobias


Hello Mr. Tob,

We've been missing you!

~o)


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## Hans Adamson (Oct 16, 2013)

choc0thrax @ Wed Oct 16 said:


> tob @ Wed Oct 16 said:
> 
> 
> > choc0thrax @ Tue Aug 27 said:
> ...


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 8) 8) 8) 
(o)


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## tob (Oct 17, 2013)

Haven't been trout slapped since the late 90s, haha.


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## MichalCielecki (Oct 20, 2013)

tekkentool @ 10/20/2013 said:


> "The epic" needs to be forcibly removed from gaming before it rots everything from the inside out



Mind blown. No, it does not to be removed, only because you or other people think it's shit. It's not, and in many games it works great, augmenting the experience. Of course, there are some works out there, that feel uninspired, but also there are some wonderful gems worth to listen to outside a game.



> It doesn't seem to have built effectual or memorable soundtracks at any point *ever* in the history of video game soundtracks.



To your opinion, yes, that's possible. But should I mention Oblivion, you mentioned it - Skyrim (oh yes - they are EPIC), Shadow of the Collosus, SW Knights Of The Old Republic 1/2, or more hybrid - Crysis 2, Modern Warfare? They are quite memorable.



> Probably because the fundamentals of what makes a game score effective is completely different to a film soundtrack and simply transposing what people are doing in one genre into a completely different context doesn't work for shit.



Yes, I'm sure Steve Jablonsky will agree with you. :lol: 



> Let's just take a moment to think about the most distinctive and memorable vidya soundtracks of the last 5 or so years. The ones that when you ask people what video game soundtracks they REALLY LOVED they're gonna mention. Stuff like bastion, Braid, Far cry 3: blood dragon, Skyrim, Mario Galaxy, Journey.



And I will mention Gears Of War 2, Modern Warfare, Carrier Command: Gaega Mission and more. But yeah, let's just talk about "the most distinctive and memorable vidya soundtracks of the last 5 or so years" to you.



> "Epic" doesn't work for video games and the kinds of cinematic "Experience" games that require them don't work as video games either.



:shock: 



> Shit even then one of the biggest "cinematic experience" video games of this year dropped that stuff like a stone too, i don't hear it anywhere here aside from some sparse tribal drums here and there.
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/sony-soundtracks ... last-of-us
> 
> ...



It all depends on what story and emotions the devs want to present (and how - in what musical language - they are going to be delivered to the player). Your examples are beautiful musical gems, but they work with the stories they were made for. To my knowledge and experience, "epic" is still strong and will be for a very long time, because it works in certain environments, I'm sorry.


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## tmm (Oct 21, 2013)

I couldn't hold back any more... I pulled the trigger on 8W Black. Can't wait for my download links!


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## synapse21 (Oct 23, 2013)

What constitutes an 8Dio "loyalty" to get into the V8P site? I own several libraries from 8Dio, mostly percussion.

Why the exclusivity?

- Rodney


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## Maestro77 (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm interested in seeing the specs of 8W. Would love to look at the GUI, get a patch listing, etc. The V8P.me website requires username & password to see anything. Could anyone help by posting more info? The demos sound nice but they don't tell us anything about how the patches are set up, available articulations, etc.


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## synapse21 (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm fine with it if it's for a limited time, as long as the instruments come out for everyone eventually.

Otherwise it's like trying to find Pliny The Elder IPA in local stores - an unnecessary frustration. :-/


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## Greg (Oct 23, 2013)

tekkentool @ Sat Oct 19 said:


> I would argue....not really. "The epic" needs to be forcibly removed from gaming before it rots everything from the inside out and I think people are noticing...



How about Deus Ex: HR? You don't like epic scores, other people do. Big fucking deal... move on.


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## Ed (Oct 23, 2013)

synapse21 @ Wed Oct 23 said:


> What constitutes an 8Dio "loyalty" to get into the V8P site? I own several libraries from 8Dio, mostly percussion.



You need to spend or have spent $2,000 in 8dio products


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## tmm (Oct 23, 2013)

This is far from an unprecedented move. They're rewarding their most active, loyal customers with special privileges, no different from any retailer I've ever worked for or shopped with. Ex: I've easily purchased 50+ amplifiers and probably around half as many instruments from the GC's in my area. When they get a rare / unique item in used, or are about to start stocking something I'd be really interested in, they let me know. They work out deals with me because I've brought them so much business, both from myself and the network of musicians I know, and they know I'll continue to do business with them.

I don't see the problem with the exclusivity. In the end, it's their business, and they can run it how they want. It doesn't seem to me that their business sense has let them astray thus far. If anything, I think they may be some of the best marketers in the sample development world currently.


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## José Herring (Oct 23, 2013)

I think it's actually a great idea. And, I don't say it with any bias. Personally I think my total 8dio purchases are in the sub $50 range. Not that I don't like any of their products, I'm just really not into the sound they're after most of the time. 

But, to open up this unique product to millions of people will just cheapen the effort to create something new and unique.

I don't know the price, but Troels, if anything is pretty smart. I'm hoping that it's priced high and that there's only a limited amount that needs to be sold in order for them to make a profit. 

I like this library a lot from what I've heard. But, in all honesty I'd hate to hear it on everything, which if everybody had access, we would be hearing it on everything.


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## synapse21 (Oct 23, 2013)

I think I read these libraries are a minimum of $999 on up, due to their specialized nature.


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## José Herring (Oct 23, 2013)

synapse21 @ Wed Oct 23 said:


> I think I read these libraries are a minimum of $999 on up, due to their specialized nature.



Damn. Too inexpensive. :?


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## tmm (Oct 23, 2013)

That was the original estimate; the 'entry level' is a little more than that, and Black is...

(really not sure how much info is intended to be public)


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## germancomponist (Oct 23, 2013)

I have not read the overall thread, so maybe my question was answered... ?

What orchestra was booked for doing this library? And where in LA or elsewhere are the recordings done?


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## Ed (Oct 23, 2013)

josejherring @ Wed Oct 23 said:


> I think it's actually a great idea. And, I don't say it with any bias. Personally I think my total 8dio purchases are in the sub $50 range. Not that I don't like any of their products, I'm just really not into the sound they're after most of the time.
> 
> But, to open up this unique product to millions of people will just cheapen the effort to create something new and unique.
> 
> ...



I quite like the concept, from a marketing POV its quite clever I think.


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## Ed (Oct 23, 2013)

tmm @ Wed Oct 23 said:


> That was the original estimate; the 'entry level' is a little more than that, and Black is...
> 
> (really not sure how much info is intended to be public)



Its one of the genius things about it, you dont want to say too much or else you might lose your place. So there's always this air of mystery, unlike other products like Adagio where people will talk about it as much as they want. Will be interesting to see what happens! o-[][]-o


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## jgarciaserra (Oct 23, 2013)

Once upon a time... ADAGIO... Do you remember?


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## KingIdiot (Oct 23, 2013)

Tob... 

looks like all the time machines in cookie clicker have actually messed with time and space.



tekkentool: 

I want more diversity in games too, but the industry has tended to follow the movie industry for years. In indie development yup, there's gonna be fun stuff happening, but there's a GIGANTIC market of games that follow the trend of bigger and louder is better. Maybe not for the most innovative and creative games, but ... lets face it, that is a tiny part of the scene, when you look at release after release of mid range titles.

so sure, argue, it doesn't change that the industry at large is in love with it. It's not dead, and wont be until it crumbles under it's own weight. Which might take a few years still, if at all. Quite more than enough time to get some serious use out of V8P... or G-town... and every library layered together and limited to hell like Tob used to do


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## StatKsn (Oct 23, 2013)

tekkentool @ Sun Oct 20 said:


> Haha you did bulletstorm, I had some fun with that one. Cool.



+1 Bulletstorm was a harsh but epic fun ride. Great memories!


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## paulmatthew (Oct 23, 2013)

I have the Bulletstorm Soundtrack and It's one of my favorites from any game/ film. Michal and Krzysztof nailed that one. Without the soundtracks from Bulletstorm (game) , Sunshine (film) , Gladiator (film) , and walk through videos by Daniel James I probably wouldn't have gotten into this type of music at all. It's opened all kinds of possibilties for what I want to do with music now.


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## José Herring (Oct 23, 2013)

KingIdiot @ Wed Oct 23 said:


> Tob...
> 
> looks like all the time machines in cookie clicker have actually messed with time and space.
> 
> ...



That's why I'm curious to see how the 8th wonder library has an impact on scoring in general. 

I like Hans Z. I've come to appreciate his talent and hard work. But, his scores are reaching critical mass imo, where things are so active and so dense at times that the overall effect is the sound is actually getting smaller. It's like a black whole, so massive and dense that the weight of the star collapses the space.

Now with this new library, we've got huge sections with a huge ambiance baked in. It has a pretty unique sound. I mean, not that unique. Those of us that are old enough to remember certainly remember the 101 strings records. But, the huge sound has depth and won't require slamming the volume to the max limiter wall to get that big ass sound.

So I'm looking at this huge library with kind of a keen interest to see if it takes things in a different direction. A direction that quite frankly will be hard to duplicate on a scoring stage or studio. 

Will we be scoring films and games in huge cathedrals with 160 pieces in the near future? Curious to find out.


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