# You wanna hear a score that completely doesn't work?



## kid-surf (Feb 26, 2009)

Rent: Donnie Brasco

I mean, the script is bad enough on its own, but the music? WOW, at times it has absolutely nothing to do with what's MEANT to take place on screen. 

You know who I blame? The director. I'm amazed this film got nominated for anything. I'm further amazed that the director didn't get yanked off this thing. No offense, but what a train wreck. 

The reason I make an example of this film is that I don't believe for a second that the director knew where he was going with the music. Yet, it SOUNDS LIKE he pushed for what made sense to him (which was ultimately totally wrong). I can't imagine a composer would make these creative choices w/o being pushed into them.

There are many scenes that are supposed to play tense (shit, it's a gangster flick), yet the music is playful, almost comedic/cartoonish. WHAT...!!?

Just, it's kinda shocking when you hear music that is so far from being right.

Thanks for letting me vent. :D


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## kid-surf (Feb 26, 2009)

I just thought of the perfect analogy: It's like the Home Alone score stuffed into what is supposed to be a gangster flick. 

I don't know if I can continue watching this...it's that bad.


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## Hal (Feb 26, 2009)

i havent watched this but i can tell u somthing i learned lately from analysing different movies..
u know there isnt music that "doesnt work"

any music will work on any scnene the real difficulty comes in..

How to set a general mode to ur movie
and how to make ur music/silence "add as much as u can to a special scene"


so what doesnt work for u obviously worked for the composer and the director and the producer.so u better think of it as this is what they wanted actually and if u were the composer they would ve probably asked you to sound like that.

this is somthing in general and ofcourse i should watch the movie ur talking about.
am interested.


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## midphase (Feb 26, 2009)

Mike Newell directing, Patrick Doyle composing....wow, I guess not a winning combo huh?

I remember watching that film but not really paying any attention to the score.

The weird thing is that by the time they made that film, both the director and the composer had quite a bit of experience under their belts...kinda weird how it could get so screwed up.

Perhaps we should start a thread of all of worst scores (the ones who just don't fit the film). I seem to remember Deep Star Six (Harry Manfredini) as being one of the worse ones ever...also Wing Commander would have to be a close second (scored by Kevin Kiner, which our very own Jeff C shares CSI composing duties with).

Before this spins out of control (I'm looking at you Jay A.) please note that I'm not saying the composers are bad...merely that for one reason or another, the scores for those films simply don't seem to gel with the rest of the movie.


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## choc0thrax (Feb 26, 2009)

Too late, the Asher signal is already illuminated in the dark skies above V.I. control city. The countdown begins.


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## lux (Feb 26, 2009)

To me the less working score i've heard is King Arthur.


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## kid-surf (Feb 27, 2009)

*Hal --* On a philosophical / transcendental level I agree with you. In that case it could be said that this is merely a "taste" issue (which my wife reminds me of all the time). BUT, the more I study film, and more so 'story', the more I feel that there is an 'ultimate truth' we are attempting to first discover in our story, then portray. Some films come closer to this "ultimate truth of humanity" than others...is my belief.

From this stand point, I do believe that there are not only certain scores that "don't work" (on the deepest psychological level) but also stories. I ponder these ideas a lot now as I am currently attempting to write a film that needs to capture a mythic/iconic relevance in order to "work" on a psychological level, which, for me, represents the first step toward a film the lay-person will simply decipher as "good". I see it as my job to dig through the many psychological layers defining the reasons we do, or do not, latch onto these life stories - these metaphors for our own lives. The film I'm writing right now is VERY difficult, yet it's a fine line...has to be organic, honest and authentic, can't be a contrived put-on. Anyway...I do understand your point.

But let me add: Just because a filmmaker ended up where he/she ended up does not therefore mean this is what's BEST for his/her film...merely, it is where they ended up. I'm sure we've all made artistic choses we later determined where misguided in some way. 

*Kays --* I hear you. They had plenty of experience, same with the screenwriter. I think this is a case of "it just didn't come together". On paper (credits) it should have. Agreed, a lisòÓ¦   –•šÓ¦   –•›Ó¦   –•œÓ¦   –•Ó¦   –•žÓ¦   –•ŸÓ¦   –• Ó¦   –•¡Ó¦   –•¢Ó¦   –•£Ó¦   –•¤Ó¦   –•¥Ó¦   –•¦Ó¦   –•§Ó¦   –•¨Ó¦   –•©Ó¦   –•ªÓ¦   –•«Ó¦   –•¬Ó¦   –•­Ó¦   –•®Ó¦   –•¯Ó¦   –•°Ó¦   –•±Ó¦   –•²Ó¦   –•³Ó¦   –•´Ó¦   –•µÓ¦   –•¶Ó¦   –•·Ó¦   –•¸Ó¦   –•¹Ó¦   –•ºÓ¦   –•»Ó¦   –•¼Ó¦   –•½Ó¦   –•¾Ó¦   –•¿Ó¦   –•ÀÓ¦   –•ÁÓ¦   –•ÂÓ¦   –•ÃÓ¦   –•ÄÓ¦   –•ÅÓ¦   –•ÆÓ¦   –•ÇÓ¦   –•ÈÓ¦   –•ÉÓ¦   –•ÊÓ¦   –•ËÓ¦   –•ÌÓ¦   –•ÍÓ¦   –•ÎÓ¦   –•ÏÓ¦   –•ÐÓ¦   –•ÑÓ¦   –•ÒÓ¦   –•ÓÓ¦   –•ÔÓ¦   –•ÕÓ¦   –•ÖÓ¦   –•×Ó¦   –•ØÓ¦   –•ÙÓ¦   –•ÚÓ¦   –•ÛÓ¦   –•ÜÓ¦   –•ÝÓ¦   –•ÞÓ¦   –•ßÓ¦   –•àÓ¦   –•áÓ¦   –•âÓ¦   –•ãÓ¦   –•äÓ¦   –•åÓ¦   –•æÓ¦   –•çÓ¦   –•èÓ¦   –•éÓ¦   –•êÓ¦   –•ëÓ¦   –•ìÓ¦   –•íÓ¦   –•îÓ¦   –•ïÓ¦   –•ðÓ¦   –•ñÓ¦   –•òÓ¦   –•óÓ¦   –•ôÓ§   –•õÓ§   –•öÓ§   –•÷Ó§   –•øÓ§   –•ùÓ§


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## midphase (Mar 1, 2009)

I can tell you this much....the more problematic the film, the more difficult it becomes for me to write music to it. When the story is simply not working, or the editing feels off, or the acting is uninspired, and the cinematography flat...I have a hard time coming up with the score because I feel that I'm mostly hired to "fix" problems rather than enhance the film.

Another big one is when I get the vibe that the director himself doesn't really give a crap. It's really hard to go the extra step in that scenario.


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## José Herring (Mar 1, 2009)

All I remember about the score is flutes. I thought it took a lot of guts to put flutes in a crime genre movie.

I wouldn't say it didn't work. I thought the music was well written. I just thought the whole movie didn't really work that well and it's tough to come up with a score that works when nothing else is.

Jose


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## Ashermusic (Mar 1, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Thu Feb 26 said:


> Too late, the Asher signal is already illuminated in the dark skies above V.I. control city. The countdown begins.



Lol! Yeah, you knew it was coming

I don't remember the score to "Donnie Brasco" but I remember liking the film.

I certainly will look forward to seeing the film with a script by Kid Surf that works better. Until then, while he certainly has the right to his opinion, there is simply no reason for any of us to take it seriously, as he has only talked the talk, not walked the walk.


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## JohnG (Mar 1, 2009)

JMDNYC @ 1st March 2009 said:


> In Goblet it was a little painful to hear such a well known theme with simplified harmonies.



+1

It was seriously misguided, I thought, to alter it in that particular way.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 1, 2009)

well, certainly I was not OT here.

Let me be clear:

I only respect a critical opinion about whether or not a score or script done by a person of proven accomplishment works (not whether one likes it or not, that is a different thing IMHO) by someone who has proven they have knowledge on the subject by their own proven accomplishment.

If i.e. Jeff Cardoni came on here and said that (and you notice he NEVER does that) or a William Goldman came on and criticized a script than I would not call them on it, because in my mind they have demonstrated that they can walk the walk.

I like Kid Surf personally, but he has simply not earned that credibility yet.

I know this is not a popular view here but I still believe it to be correct and I am going to continue to push the idea that this should not be a place to launch attacks on people's work who have not solicited our opinion of it.


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## JohnG (Mar 1, 2009)

does that mean we can't criticise a sample library unless we have made one?


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## Ashermusic (Mar 1, 2009)

JohnG @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> does that mean we can't criticize a sample library unless we have made one?



That depends on what you are criticizing about it. If you say that you do not like the sound, the feature set, the keyswitiching etc. that is valid.

But if one were to say i.e. that it is poorly scripted when one has never written a script, poorly sampled when one has never recorded a real player, said it does not sound enough like a real orchestra when one has never been in front of a real orchestra, then yes, I would not respect that particularly either. For that reason, i.e. my opinion on scripting is not nearly as valid as Big Bob's or Andrew's. Which is why I simply do not comment on it!

You know folks, it is not dishonest to not share every negative thought you have about people's work. My longtime songwriting partner, the late Paul Jabara, used to get very frustrated with all the "opinions" criticizing his/our songs. He once said to me, "Jay, we need to write a song called "Everyone's An Authority On Everything."

This happens all the time on the net. Somebody making music on an Mbox in his room in his parent's house will post about how an expensive SSL sucks.

So yes, IMHO opinions are like anuses, everyone has one and no one needs another (unsolicited) one. Now many here submit their work seeking opinions. That is clearly a different matter.


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## Niah (Mar 1, 2009)

But kid writes and I guess that's why he talks about how bad he thinks the script is. Not that I think that because he writes it makes his opinion more or less valid but your logic seems to go in that direction.

Of course you also talk about proven accomplishments but what are those exactly to you?


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## Ashermusic (Mar 1, 2009)

Niah @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> But kid writes and I guess that's why he talks about how bad he thinks the script is. Not that I think that because he writes it makes his opinion more or less valid but your logic seems to go in that direction.
> 
> Of course you also talk about proven accomplishments but what are those exactly to you?



Well, none of us know how poorly or well he writes. The mere fact that he "writes" proves nothing.

Proven accomplishments are just that: scores that are well received both clients and peers; orchestral pieces or scripts that knowledgeable peers have heard or seen and deemed done well; This is not rocket science.

C'mon guys, REALLY. Do none of you resonate to the idea that to come here and talk about something you really liked and thought worked well is far more constructive and educational than to come here and bash someone's work? Isn't it better to come on and praise a score, or talk about how much we like what we hear of Andrew's library so far rather than talking about how bad we think another is?

You guys profoundly depress me sometimes.


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## Daniel James (Mar 1, 2009)

lux @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> To me the less working score i've heard is King Arthur.



I disagree with this one. I find the overly heroic vibe very fitting.

Dan


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## Niah (Mar 1, 2009)

Exactly we don't know his writing (although some do).

But that was not my point, my point was to find out where do you stand.

And it seems that you only acknowledge and give a certain opinion merit based on the things that you have described.

That's all I wanted to make sure if I was not misreading you on your posts.

It seems to me that your views and opinions are exclusively "industry" driven, and that's fine but this is not an "industry" forum. 

"Proven accomplishments are just that: scores that are well received both clients and peers; orchestral pieces or scripts that knowledgeable peers have heard or seen and deemed done well; This is not rocket science. "

that sounds like the grammies or the oscars to me. that's like not having a mind of your own...


I don't see a reason for all this defensive attitude towards anything that has to do with the industry.

Just relax man, the sanctus cafe is like your local pub or vegas, if you don't like the new metallica album you can say it sucks we won't tell Lars. :lol: 

Oh there are forums out there where there's only positive comments about libraries and many other things. Kinda like that movie...the demolition man. :lol: 

I hope that VI never sucumbs to that self-censoring thing you are sugestion but we never know. After all these are conservatitive times we are living in.


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## kid-surf (Mar 1, 2009)

> I certainly will look forward to seeing the film with a script by Kid Surf that works better. Until then, while he certainly has the right to his opinion, there is simply no reason for any of us to take it seriously, as he has only talked the talk, not walked the walk.



Honestly, brutha, I don't mind people giving me a hard time about my opinionated-opinions. It's what I love about you guys. 

But the reality is, I am WALKING the walk, not just sitting here throwing my opinions online. No, I don't have a film or TV show in the theater or on TV, but I *am* currently developing both with some of the most discriminating/successful/respected folks in the business. A feat I accomplished in less than two years after I first began writing. Can you cut me a break? I've never heard of anyone, much less a composer/musician doing JUST that, as fast. 

Can I be as straight forward as if we were out to sushi watching Craig play (which I need to do!)? Thanks. :D I don't really need a pat on the back for that, but the reality is, accomplishing this seemingly small feat is, in fact, accomplishing a hell of a lot VERY quickly, and proving a hell of a lot about my creative theories. Putting them into practice, literally. These guys only work with a handful of screenwriters each year, none of which are slouches, most are huge names. Obviously they are going to choose a huge name over me, so there must be 'something to' what I've put onto the page for them to read in order to then choose me. (To which I'm ridiculously grateful to be in this position -- To which I am determined to live up to, make that surpass their expectations, in order to allow these people who took a risk on me to say "Oh good, we were right".) 

I'm smack in the middle of developing both at the same time. The film script is your modern day difficult-ass script, think: "aiming for THOSE kind of actors/directors, the guys who turn everything down and don't do popcorn flicks...well...unless the right director is attached". The reason I'm working with these people is that they read my other work and feel I can (actually, make that 'already have on the page' to one degree or another) deliver high quality work...in order to work, now, on this difficult "bigger/commercial" script. Yes, I'm working on it as we speak, that film that needs to be _as good as_ (in my opinion, better than) Donnie Brasco. Unfortunately, it's going to take a minute or two to compare them both...please, cut me some slack. I can only work at the speed of light. :D

Keep in mind though, Donnie Brasco is an adaptation. Having said that, It's a whole other ball game (as a writer) to have to "make up" the story. Any (honest) screenwriter will tell you that an original screenplay is harder than an adaptation. Though, they'd never tell a studio that. 

Also keep in mind that, as a screenwriter, I've already done the work several times. The only difference between a script that is produced, and one that isn't, is money. Doesn't necessarily reflect the quality of the script. Shit, plenty of Oscar nominated studio films and/or smash hit, and/or critically acclaimed indie films ALMOST didn't get made. In fact, we could say ALL OF THEM. :D

So, to attempt to "disqualify" (gonna have to disagree with Jose on this one) my opinion is one step beyond stating an opinion...but that's only my opinion. :D But, like anything else in the free world, I feel you have a right to try to [disqualify my opinions]. :D

Jay, I'd be glad to send you a couple of my scripts to read if you'd like. You could make up your own mind about my writing. Although, both are independent in scope and dark. I would bet you'd like the new "commercial" script better. Who knows, you may be able to see it at the theater some day...it's the reason we're developing it. :D

Having said all that...Lay-people state their opinions of films (art) all day long, isn't this what we WANT? Go have a look at Yahoo Movies. Plenty of folks give films like The Departed an "F". They have a right to their opinion. They aren't intending to "disqualify" the filmmaker, the screenwriter, the composer or anyone else's talent involved. This is NOT about a lack of creative-respect.

No hard feelings... o-[][]-o 

--ok back to topic--

--or not--


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## kid-surf (Mar 1, 2009)

JMDNYC @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> Mike Newell and Patrick Doyle are the same team behind "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire." This might be time to take this discussion into the direction: can only John Williams write John Williams music. (I'd say yes).
> 
> I actually like lots of Patrick Doyle's music, and I'll be the first to defend a composer by saying that bad scores are often the result of bad directions. Some actors can be great in some parts and horribly mis-cast in others. In fact, Patrick Doyle approaches scores like an actor -- he was an actor before turning to composing.
> .



Seems we feel the same way. I initially said I blamed the director. Yes, I feel sometimes things just don't creatively come together.


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## kid-surf (Mar 1, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> well, certainly I was not OT here.
> 
> Let me be clear:
> 
> ...




Ooops, there's more to the story...

Well, Jeff and I are two different people. 

You're off base, Jay. This site is full of MY PEERS. This isn't a room of the top dudes in the business. You think I would walk into a room full of top guys and give my opinion, of course not, they don't care what I think. BUT...I care what you guys think...even though most of use aren't Class-A. Follow?

I've earned enough credibility to talk shop with my composer peers...or my screenwriting peers. Absolutely. No apologies for that.

What I'm doing 'currently' is exactly the same as if any one of us were working with XYZ big name producer on a composing gig. That's not EARNING ones way (and in a significant arena no less)? I don't follow. 

How in the world do we learn if we do not recognize when work fails to hit the intended mark. I'm just not one of those people who see any value in pretending it did. This is maybe one reason I'm where I am now, I'm honest about what it takes...and I push myself ALWAYS to do better and to grow.

Hey, you didn't ask me what films I think are SOLID. 

But have we not all heard the ideology that we learn far more from those works that do NOT work than those that DO...?


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## kid-surf (Mar 1, 2009)

JohnG @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> does that mean we can't criticise a sample library unless we have made one?



That NEVER happens...! :lol:


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## Ashermusic (Mar 1, 2009)

kid-surf @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun Mar 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, Jeff and I are two different people.



That is true. Bottom line, is I respect guys like Jeff and, well, myself, who do not come on and bash others work more than I respect those who do.

You guys may not like that, but that is where I stand and what I will continue to state.


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## kid-surf (Mar 1, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> Niah @ Sun Mar 01 said:
> 
> 
> > But kid writes and I guess that's why he talks about how bad he thinks the script is. Not that I think that because he writes it makes his opinion more or less valid but your logic seems to go in that direction.
> ...




You profoundly confuse me sometimes, Jay. I think you are a bit sensitive on this subject. I would agree with you if it were merely about all of us trying to throw someone's work under the bus. Totally not the case. Ain't me...

Far as other screenwriters respecting my work. Enough do, you just don't know them...what, are they supposed to place an ad in the paper saying so? Are they working writers? Yes, they are my peers and signed to the most successful agency in the world. Which happens to be the same place I'm dealing with.

Although...it's not like I seek out screenwriters to validate me. Producers, agents and managers have done that. Which is far more important (to a career) than what other screenwriters think of my work. But, sure, I have no prob with a screenwriter reading my work and giving me their unedited blunt thoughts. 

I don't get what the big deal is...truly.


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## kid-surf (Mar 1, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> kid-surf @ Sun Mar 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Sun Mar 01 said:
> ...



Gotcha...

I come from a different school. I know that folks will dissect my work when it's not up to snuff. I'm the type of guy that will read bad reviews first because I know they are usually right about what didn't work...or at least hint at it.

Hey...critics get paid to BASH films. Artists are trying to become better, that is, this is the reason sensible artists will dissect a poorly executed film. Not simply for the sake of sticking their tongue at it.

I admit I was venting the other night when I posted this. If you want to have an in depth discussion about why I don't feel the script or the score worked on DB, I'd be glad to...but I'll have to do it at one of these composer functions. I'm slim on time...it would take too much type for me to explain. Yo know me... 

Long story short...you and I are at an impasse on this mater. I have no prob with you towing that line.


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## kid-surf (Mar 1, 2009)

BTW -- there's a bit of irony to this but I can't type it online. I'll tell you later Jay, you may find it amusing, or not. :D


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## Daniel James (Mar 1, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> well, certainly I was not OT here.
> 
> Let me be clear:
> 
> ...



There are films I have seen where the acting was horrible...does this mean I can not pass judgment because I have never acted? 

An opinion is subjective and personal, you have the right to share it with others and if its what you believe to be correct it is fully valid. If you choose to agree with that opinion is totally up to you, if not, agree to disagree and move on.

That's what I think anyways xD

Dan


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## Hal (Mar 1, 2009)

U know Asher i thought of this a lot..i mean i always think of this,each time i watch soccer,read a movie review or listen to a song
when should we critic,and *who* can critic

while i am with you Asher i found that

in a matter of fact and unfortunally anyone can critic and this is because every one ve got taste and a since of analysis 
i hear people talking about cars about its engine about its options and how bad it is surprisingly this car could be a BMW the guy just dont like it and he prefers a volvo his no engeneer tho..and he never made a car and he say it..this BMW is bad !

the shef spent 2 hours preparing this delicious apperitif.u simply dont like it and say it tastes like shit,u cant cook and i cant either but we know what is good and whats bad.

there is those poeople "including me"always talking about how a soccer player sucks
we dont play football or at least not like him but we simply can see he sucks ! and u have the guts to say it (he should be out) !

*who can critic others work? any one can..*
while am no designer and i cant make a website i critiscised my designer and told him how ugly the site he made is and how poor it looks and that the layout is aweful and this is the third time we are redoing it !

Client who pay money and normal people who buy CDs,tickets,arts blabla they critic without knowing nothing about the industry. 

i hate quatum of solace script and am no script writer and the writers are supposed to be the top three in the industry.

i beleive the reason for that is that there is (norms/expectation and taste) and anything that doesnt go with that fall simply into "bad" fo a lot of people or into *doesnt work* for more tolerant people.


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## kid-surf (Mar 2, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> I have made this point before and this really is the last time, because some of you will never get it.
> 
> There is a big difference between bashing people's work when having drinks with friends and doing so on a public forum.




OK, the reason this doesn't work just occurred to me...

We never get enough time to discuss these issues (creative issues and whether or not they worked) when we are having drinks. We talk about light stuff: What projects you working on, how's your wife and kids...dogs, how are the waves...you know important stuff. 

Here, we are able to take our time to discuss these creative issues at our leisure, which is the very reason we are able to debate/discuss at length. Everyone gets their say and isn't interrupted.

This, to me, is the very reason creative discussions are better served on-line.


Jay, stop reading here: :D


The other thing that just occurred to me is; how in the world folks feel Slumdog is an uplifting film when only the last 20 minutes are, well, uplifting? The answer to that, I mean. I already figured out that, sure, some of it must be the psychology in being brought so low initially (depressed, like a balloon held underwater) then skyrocketed to ecstasy in the last 20 minutes (letting go of said balloon) - which didn't totally work for me as I found the film glossed over (disguised) a flimsy story construct (like the love story and the brother relationship, which was clunky). But as they say, "It's all about the ending...And the poster!!" If you get the ending right, it's a great film...even if it wasn't. After all, how could I not like seeing repressed, beautiful people, kind people (and cute KIDS) dancing for joy in vibrant garb after they've crawled through shit, literally. Talk about an underDOG. What's wrong with me, I normally love that stuff!? But I felt put-on... 

Suddenly it is so obvious, of course, the fact that we are made to feel distanced from the "dark" aspects of the film the ENTIRE TIME due to the concurrent "he's in present day on the set of Who Wants to be a Mill'n-air...don't worry, obviously everything will be fine UNTIL we MATCH CUT with present day" structure. How could I have not realized this immediately, it's so obvious. But realizing this really drives home the point (to me) that the line here between SMASH HIT and "what the fuck was that!?" is a very fine one...very fine.

It's issues like that that I try to dissect in order to understand WHY the brain allows for such things in film...In order that I may write solidly constructed scripts myself. Slumdog is a real case study. On paper this film is a mess, and not because of the structure, the structure makes sense to me (though producers tell me it shouldn't -- though, for me it's the ONLY way this film could have been told), the STORY is what's always been weak for me. The story underneath all of the SMASH-BANG, I mean. Thus, it almost touched me, not quite.

I'm like, the one guy who didn't think this film was great. I though it was just OK, and I wanted to know why I was one of the very few who didn't LOVE LOVE LOVE this film. Ok, now I "get" it. Now I get why it's not a dark film to most every except me. Now I can sleep soundly... :D

Ironically. Many people say may scripts are "fucking dark" and I don't see it that way. Thus, my fascination with cracking this case. 


Thanks for letting me vent. Welcome to my brain...


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## kid-surf (Mar 2, 2009)

Hans Adamson @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> Hmmm,
> 
> Interesting. Here is my take on these movies (in red):
> 
> ...


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## lux (Mar 2, 2009)

I'm with what niah said.

Jay, in all honesty, this industry respectful and self censoring attitude is supposed to lead to uncertain results. The only certain result is that you will just carry on the principle that what sells is top. I know enough about what sells in various fields to understand this is true only half the times.

If you need to earn credibility to speak (that mainstream credibility) then you will not talk anymore. Who's that fool to earn some position, perhaps not being... a true genius, and spoil out the fun evidencing whats crap and whats not? Its like hitting your own balls with a baseball bat. 

So, basically, keeping your attitude means not speaking at all. Ever. 

It will also lead to have even more crap walking our musical streets.



> Just relax man, the sanctus cafe is like your local pub or vegas, if you don't like the new metallica album you can say it sucks we won't tell Lars. :lol:



you b***, I will tell him.


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## midphase (Mar 2, 2009)

"There is a big difference between bashing people's work when having drinks with friends and doing so on a public forum. "


You are right, there is a big difference. The former is two-faced and cowardly, the latter is honest and takes courage.


Look, movie critics (who are not directors, actors, or screenwriters) get paid well to shell out their opinions. Love them or hate them, they are successful enough that most magazines, newspapers and online movie sites continue to hire them...why is it acceptable and ever worth good money for those guys to share their opinions, but for us it's "lacking class"? I think it's human nature to have opinions. The benefit of posting them online is that we can have a bouncing board to let us know if we're right on or way off the mark. If I dislike a movie (or a score) and it's because I am misinterpreting it or missing the meaning, then I want to know about it, and a sure way to figure it out is to post it online. 

This whole thing reminds me an awful lot of when if you were anti-Iraq war that meant you were anti-American. Perhaps if more people had spoken up back then, we would be in less shit than we are today!


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## JB78 (Mar 2, 2009)

midphase @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> "There is a big difference between bashing people's work when having drinks with friends and doing so on a public forum. "
> 
> 
> You are right, there is a big difference. The former is two-faced and cowardly, the latter is honest and takes courage.
> ...




+1


If your movie/score/etc... Get's slammed online you at least have a shot at speaking up for yourself, that's hard to do when it's only talked about in private.

Granted, a lot of the criticism online is poorly executed. It's hard to defend or learn from a review that consists mainly of different ways to say "DUDE,THIS SUCKS ASS!!!"

I haven't seen that type of rhetoric here, and I don't think it would be accepted either. 

Best regards
Jon


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## Ashermusic (Mar 2, 2009)

midphase @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> "There is a big difference between bashing people's work when having drinks with friends and doing so on a public forum. "
> 
> 
> You are right, there is a big difference. The former is two-faced and cowardly, the latter is honest and takes courage.



Oh yeah, that's brave all right, just like telling a guy you are arguing with on a forum who is a 6.4 250 lbs. that you would kick his ass ifyou met him in person.

How did I miss the nobility in all this bashing?

I will be spending less time here. I have observed that when I leave some forums daily after posting that I feel elevated because I have perhaps helped a few people with Logic swapped a couple of funny lines, and learned a little something too.

Here I do not feel that. It feels toxic to me, despitet he fact there are some folks here I truly like and admire.

Its probably me. I guess this is just not my kind of crowd.


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## JMDNYC (Mar 2, 2009)

"Cowardly" or simply politic?

Here's a good article about this very issue as it relates to film criticism. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2008/oct ... bjectivity


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## choc0thrax (Mar 2, 2009)

Hans Adamson @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> Hmmm,
> 
> Interesting. Here is my take on these movies (in red):
> 
> ...



Hans! How can you not remember Heat? It's three hours of awesomeness.


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## Hans Adamson (Mar 2, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> Hans! How can you not remember Heat? It's three hours of awesomeness.


Hmm,
I have supposedly seen it, but I am not sure I did. Have to rent it and see it again. Checked it out on Imbd and it sure looks good. Pacino and DeNiro... cool.


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## kid-surf (Mar 2, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> midphase @ Mon Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> > "There is a big difference between bashing people's work when having drinks with friends and doing so on a public forum. "
> ...



Jay, try as you must to paint the extreme...that is not the actuality of what is happening here.

Like I explained, I will state my opinions of one's work, to whomever, in a face-to-face if they ask me for honesty. And I will not edit my thoughts. Your implication is that folks cannot find their way to this place of honesty. Well, I can. 

*I owe a buddy of mine a debt of gratitude for digging into my first script and not holding his tongue. Had he not done that I'm not sure I would have grown as quickly as I have...and gone on to write a few that are much stronger. Likewise, I just gave a guy a sea of notes just yesterday. His script was a disaster and I told him so...told him why in very thoughtful detail breaking it down, at times, all the way to the psychology of the scene. Micro and macro...

BACK TO SCENE: 

My wife tells me that, at times, I'm too forthright for my own good...perhaps...but this is the same quality that allows me to write screenplays that are not a "put-on". This is not to say that everyone will love them, no, just that I am not lying to you on the page, begging you to like it, desperate for your approval, pandering for artistic validation. I've read many screenplays that apologize (in subtext - or sometimes text with the worst writers) for what they are or represent. You wanna talk about cowardly? THAT is my definition of cowardly, EDITING art as it hits the canvas, so to speak.

Artists are those who are EXPECTED to be honest in their endeavors, MORE honest than the lay-person not faced with peeling back the layers of humanity in order to try and make some sense of this condition known as mankind...and yes, sometimes to the artists own peril (creatively, spiritually or otherwise). This _is_... THE ARTIST mentality. Our job is not to spread beauty, sometimes we do that inadvertently, or job is to try and get that much closer to the truth.

Now here's an opinion; Anything other than that (in art) is a big put-on. Here in Hollywood far too many are flat out brainwashed into believing this is about lining the pockets of a studio. It's hard for me to find a way to respect that sort of artist. In fact, are they really not merely a "service" person at that point?

So, when artists are expected to hold their tongues it does not make LOGICAL sense. What this request is REALLY about is wishing for the artist to be CENSORED...which is counterintuitive to the existence of art. Sometimes art is offensive, thus, sometimes artists' opinions of art are offensive.

Regardless...

Any artist with a pulse knows that everyone will form an opinion of their work. Fine, here is the "edited" version of what we thought of your art, it's not the ACTUAL thought we had, it's the reconfigured lie disguised to not offend you...god forbid you hear genuine opinion. 

Though, it's a two-way street...I get it, and I welcome it. Honesty is a virtue of mine, which is the reason I had it tattooed onto my body at 19 years old. This is nothing new for me.


"Toxic" happens when we do not express our 'actual' feelings.


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## kid-surf (Mar 2, 2009)

JMDNYC --

Here is an excerpt from that article that I especially like:

*--"I recall coming out of a Norwegian film at a festival and meeting a friend in the lobby afterwards. "What did you think of the movie?" he asked. I then proceeded to list all the points I felt were wrong with it. "Oh, really," he replied, indicating a young woman standing beside him, "because this happens to be the director." She took it well and said that it was interesting to hear unadorned opinions that she wouldn't normally hear directly. In fact, some directors enjoy having the chance to defend their film verbally as they can't very well reply to a written review."--*

Some artists welcome the truth. Others wish to hide from it. Lets us know who is in this for the right reasons...and who is in this just to get 'stroked'. 


Here is an excerpt from that article that I didn't like:

*--My method is usually to start with the positive and then say, "But I have a problem with the scene in which ..." as if I am being obtuse.--*

This is standard practice in Hollywood by suit people. I find this practice childish. Just tell me the MOST IMPORTANT factor first. Somewhere along the line this way of "setting up" bad news became attractive. I would say it's because there is no other way to get to a solid script but for everyone, ultimately, to be HONEST with their feelings. We, for selfish reasons, believe that if we first compliment we are actually hiding our true feelings in some way...pulling our punches. All this does, is take us longer to get to the crux of the situation. Just punch me in the gut, I can take it. It's far less convoluted. Let's hurry up and make this film great, truly, this is all I care about. It's not about my ego or yours, it's about an ultimate truth in story form. Nobody can own that, not even Hollywood.


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## kid-surf (Mar 2, 2009)

ditto Kays...


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## choc0thrax (Mar 2, 2009)

kid-surf @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> Not a fan of Tarantino either. His violence feels arbitrary, having little to do with pushing an organic grounded story. I don't mind smart violence if it makes sense to the film. I have a script that is violent (I guess?), I guess it's somewhere in the realm of No Country.
> 
> Violence isn't my thing though, it was right for that particular story. In my new script I'm conscious of how do I NOT show violence. Screenwriters/studios, it seems, have forgotten how to create tension w/o killing people.



I don't care all that much for Tarantino's films, but I like his writing quite a bit. I find him pretty good at creating tension in his writing, even though yeah ok people die. I definitely like the script for Pulp Fiction more than the film. Don't know how Inglorious Basterds will turn out but the first part of that script is nice and tense.


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## Hans Adamson (Mar 2, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> kid-surf @ Mon Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Not a fan of Tarantino either. His violence feels arbitrary, having little to do with pushing an organic grounded story. I don't mind smart violence if it makes sense to the film. I have a script that is violent (I guess?), I guess it's somewhere in the realm of No Country.
> ...


What I don't like about Tarantino is that he presents the notion that it is really cool to be a gangster, and that it is funny when someone's head is blown off etc. The only thing I can appreciate about his movies is that he makes L.A. look like it actually does. It's like the first time people around the world actually get to see what L.A. really looks like in most parts of the city. I love L.A. - it is a gritty city, with so much history. Not all of it looks like Beverly Hills, though. 8)


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## midphase (Mar 2, 2009)

Hans,

If you like gritty LA, you should watch the TV show The Shield!


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## re-peat (Mar 3, 2009)

Hans Adamson @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> choc0thrax @ Mon Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> > (...) What I don't like about Tarantino is that he presents the notion that it is really cool to be a gangster, and that it is funny when someone's head is blown off etc. (...)


Sorry Hans, but I do believe that Quentin Tarantino is a little bit more intelligent than that. I might be wrong but as far as I can tell, Tarantino has never glorified the content of what he is depicting in his movies or portrayed any of his louche characters as having an enviable lifestyle or an integer moral code. The main reason he films things the way he does, it seems to me, is because it has the most dramaturgical and visual impact that way. And he'd be the first to acknowledge that his are essentialy very superficial 'comic book'-style films - but: jolly good fun to watch. 
His gangsters aren't cool by themselves, no, they are cinematographically cool. Big, big difference. Tarantino never says: "Look, here's a cool guy.", he says: "Look, here's a guy - good or bad, don't matter - that's cool to look at (and to listen to)." 
Ties all in rather well with what is, it seems to me, a long-established and genuine Hollywood tradition, no?

But back on topic: one score I've always thought doesn't quite work - and I say this as possibly the biggest and most passioned John Williams fan ever - is 'Catch Me If You Can'. The glossy sound, sophistication and rich textures of Williams' orchestra just don't fit with the images, narrative and style of the picture, I find. (Even the jazzy elements are too clever and polished to be really effective.) That movie, in my opinion, needed something along the lines of what David Holmes did for the 'Ocean's'-series or what John Lurie brought to 'Get Shorty'.

_


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## paoling (Mar 3, 2009)

I think that we can express our opinions freely. We're not attacking a single forum user, for no reason, but a talented composer that maybe had a fault in his career. I think that we can learn a lot from the things that we don't like, it's a matter of critical thinking and it helps to define our view of music and picture.

I feel a bit sad when I watch a beautiful movie and I think that the music it's completely out. If the movie is bad, I don't care. For me Dead Poets Society (in Italian "L'attimo fuggente"="The fading moment") with the music of Maurice Jarre it's completely out and doesn't give justice to this beautiful movie.


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## alphabetgreen (Mar 6, 2009)

JMDNYC @ Mon 02 Mar said:


> Mike Newell and Patrick Doyle are the same team behind "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire." This might be time to take this discussion into the direction: can only John Williams write John Williams music. (I'd say yes).
> 
> I actually like lots of Patrick Doyle's music, and I'll be the first to defend a composer by saying that bad scores are often the result of bad directions. Some actors can be great in some parts and horribly mis-cast in others. In fact, Patrick Doyle approaches scores like an actor -- he was an actor before turning to composing.
> 
> Henry V and Hamlet = absolutely great scores! Donnie Brascoe? I have no memory of it.



Ah, I was sort of wondering when the Harry Potter subject would arise. I actually think that the composition of the score to 'The Order of the Phoenix' by Nicholas Hooper is what really _makes_ this film. Apart from the famous 'Hedwig's Theme' of John Williams, much of the other Harry Potter film scores weren't _particularly_ remarkable or significant to me. I'm not saying they weren't good, because I enjoyed all the films immensely, I just can't remember the scores very well, apart from Nicholas Hooper's incredible feat of genius on the last one. So JMDNYC, in answer to your question, I would say 'no', it isn't only John Williams that can write John Williams music. Obviously it depends on the proportion to which you wish to attain, but in all, Nicholas Hooper did a memorable job. IMHO


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## kid-surf (Mar 6, 2009)

Ok...Thanks (last few guys) for getting us back on topic and giving us all something to consider. Gonna have a look at those.


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## Lex (Mar 7, 2009)

I liked Brasco, mostly for the Pacino/Depp chemistry...

Loved the Departed, way its directed, acting, and the score...

Godfather bores me to tears...=)

Talkin about good scripts/bad scripts, anyone saw OldBoy by Chan-wook Park, and what ya think of it?

Oh and scores that didnt work...many for me...but Secret Window, Taking Lives and Illusionist have to be on top of my list..

aLex


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