# Best jazz drums and saxes?



## aaronnt1 (Sep 13, 2019)

Hi all

I wonder if you could offer some recommendations for Big Band / jazz drum and saxophones? In terms of saxes I think I’m pretty much sold on Orchestral Tool Glory days as the saxes sound pretty fantastic, the rest of the horns sound ok too, but the saxes sound great.

Up until now jazz percussion and saxes wise I’ve been relying on the EW Goliath which is certainly very serviceable but limited in some ways and only has a single mic position, so am looking to take to the next level. In terms of percussion I was thinking of Straight Ahead Jazz Drums and Brushes/Mallets as they sound pretty great and comprehensive. However, though they sound great for more stripped down intimate jazz but I wonder if they will also be suitable for larger scale big band ensembles at fff? Anyone have experience this library and can list it's pros and cons?

I also have other libraries such as EW HW Brass which can work great for Big Band and has great dynamic range and shorts, however lacks most of the BB staple articulations like doits and falls etc…

Of course these two libraries (Glory Days and SA drums) were recorded in very different spaces so I wonder if they could be made to blend well, at least for polished mock-up purposes?

And other than these two libraries, are there any others that would be better, especially for percussion?
Thanks.


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## Zee (Sep 13, 2019)

Straight Ahead also released a horns library which is now being sold by Impact Soundworks i think they were both recorded in similar rooms but The Drums are very flexible and they blend well with other Big Band libraries.
I've heard great things about VSL Jazz Drums but i don't have it myself


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 13, 2019)

audio modelling saxes can work great if you have a nice controller and you're a midi wizard. 

I actually think the saxophones are my favorite part of infinite woodwinds. 

Don't have glory days myself(almost picked it up for the saxes myself) but I fear corners might be cut in a lot of places in terms of dynamic layers/round robins just due to the sheer amount of different content available through individual instruments + mutes.


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Sep 13, 2019)

Another recommendation for the SWAM saxes here. They do need a lot of programming and mixing love, but they are orders of magnitude more expressive than all the others - especially for solo writing. In ensemble contexts I usually layer them with Straight Ahead Jazz Horns, saxes from Swing! More or from Glory Days.

Beware of Glory Days as a one-stop library. The saxes have wildly different dynamic responses to CC1 values, so programming them for section work is a pain. GD is also still on version 1.0 - even though it could definitely use a thorough update. I guess OT got busy with other stuff and never looked back. Sad, really.


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## aaronnt1 (Sep 13, 2019)

Thanks all



ProfoundSilence said:


> Don't have glory days myself(almost picked it up for the saxes myself) but I fear corners might be cut in a lot of places in terms of dynamic layers/round robins just due to the sheer amount of different content available through individual instruments + mutes.





Rasmus Hartvig said:


> Beware of Glory Days as a one-stop library. The saxes have wildly different dynamic responses to CC1 values, so programming them for section work is a pain. GD is also still on version 1.0 - even though it could definitely use a thorough update. I guess OT got busy with other stuff and never looked back. Sad, really.



Yes, I'm not expecting GD to be an amazing library tbh, I'm not overly sold on the brass, they don't seem to have much dynamic range especially in the low velocities, I may be wrong? I'd probably only use for the mutes and certain artics, and stick to HW Brass for the majority. And I've heard some of the saxes sounding a little wobbly here and there but from what I can tell they are probably the best on the market at the moment? Will be a good step up from the Goliath saxes at any rate.

Percussion wise I think I'm torn between VSL Jazz drums and Straight Ahead Jazz and Brushes. Never bought anything from VSL before and not really keen on having to fuss about with a new player system, a new license software and dongle, and the kit seems rather small with only 2 toms and 1 ride and 1 crash... but it does sound nice.


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## Heizenhaus (Sep 13, 2019)

Did you try the Vintage and 50s Drummer that come with Komplete, in case you have that?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 13, 2019)

I use MOJO Horns by Vir2.


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## Kurosawa (Sep 13, 2019)

I only heard good things about VSL's Jazz drums


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Sep 13, 2019)

aaronnt1 said:


> Yes, I'm not expecting GD to be an amazing library tbh, I'm not overly sold on the brass, they don't seem to have much dynamic range especially in the low velocities, I may be wrong?



You're totally right. The lower dynamics are simply not soft enough. I've solved it by putting an EQ on the track that has a band with a wide Q that attenuates the midrange and is (also) modulated by CC1. It pretty effectively softens the lower dynamics when set to the right range.


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## dsblais (Sep 13, 2019)

I may be the only one, but I actually really like VSL's saxophones. Particularly coming to it as an ivory tickler, the way the legato responds allows an expressiveness that -- while presumably not fully exploring the saxophone -- is fun and powerful.


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## Lilainjil (Sep 13, 2019)

The kits and grooves in NI's 50's Drummer and Vintage Drummer have some serious vibe to them. They really sound fantastic. For the full-on swinging' sound I would highly recommend these. 
I use these along with Toontrack SD3 various kits and combos. StraightAhead is okay but I find it isn't nearly as easy to work with compared to the others I mentioned. But this could depend on your manner of workflow too. I play in parts but I also drag and drop and edit the midi loops. I'll post some recent examples


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## Lilainjil (Sep 13, 2019)

For horns I use a combination of Chris Hein and the two Swing libraries from Project SAM. The OP mentioned looking for doits and falls and Chris Hein is terrific for this. They are performed consistently on each instrument and section. Saxes in sections and as ensembles, likewise with the brass. They are bright and in your face. The Swing stuff is indispensable too but the sound is really about classic old school big band. Ellington rather than Maynard. A generalization but you get the idea. Speaking of which, the Screaming Trumpet from realitone I also use as sweetener too.


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## jonnybutter (Sep 13, 2019)

dsblais said:


> I may be the only one, but I actually really like VSL's saxophones. Particularly coming to it as an ivory tickler, the way the legato responds allows an expressiveness that -- while presumably not fully exploring the saxophone -- is fun and powerful.



You aren't the only one! They do sound good and are pretty playable. I prefer SWAM, but VSL did a nice job.


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## BlackDorito (Sep 13, 2019)

Somewhat in the same vein - I have always wanted to find a good kit for 50's-to-60's small combo jazz (bebop and beyond) and I've been disappointed. The main problem I've had is the ride cymbals - they always sound too large/heavy and intrusive compared to actual recordings. That may be a result of the recording techniques back then wherein there were no spot mics on the drums for live events ... but still, I should be able to get a small hi-freq 'ting' for a ride pattern instead of a full-freq splash. 

What I have *not* done (and should do):
- bought any drum product since Toontrack EZ Drummer 2 (very disappointing)
- taken a serious look at recent offerings, like VSL (demos sound awesome)
- tried to use EQ

Anyone aware of a must-have kit for small combo?*
*


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 13, 2019)

BlackDorito said:


> bought any drum product since Toontrack EZ Drummer 2 (very disappointing)



Really? I believe the one I have is EZ Drummer 1, but I think it's really good - although its default "cocktail" kit isn't really a straight-ahead jazz set.

Its big brother, Superior Drummer, is even better.


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## Heizenhaus (Sep 13, 2019)

BlackDorito said:


> Somewhat in the same vein - I have always wanted to find a good kit for 50's-to-60's small combo jazz (bebop and beyond) and I've been disappointed.


Did you check out the new BFD Jazz Noir?


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## BlackDorito (Sep 13, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Really? I believe the one I have is EZ Drummer 1, but I think it's really good - although its default "cocktail" kit isn't really a straight-ahead jazz set.


Yeah, I started with EZD1 and upgraded to EZD2. Even if you hit the ride bell within Cocktail Brush, or Jazz Brush Delight, it's got too much low frequency. I just listened to the VSL Vienna Jazz Drums and the first demo clip ("Swing 136 bpm") has the sounds I'm looking for. Not expensive either


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## BlackDorito (Sep 13, 2019)

Heizenhaus said:


> Did you check out the new BFD Jazz Noir?


This BFD seems like a massive product. So you need to buy BFD3 for $349 and then add the Jazz Noir expansion for $99 ?


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## jonathanparham (Sep 13, 2019)

Also like Addictive drums. Jazz Brushes plug in


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## Heizenhaus (Sep 14, 2019)

BlackDorito said:


> This BFD seems like a massive product. So you need to buy BFD3 for $349 and then add the Jazz Noir expansion for $99 ?


It's not THAT massive. The Jazz Noir library is only 22 and a half gigabytes large.







But yes, that's the pricing. But it goes on 50% sales every once in a while.

P.S. I'm always a bit surprised when people don't know BFD, while talking about drum samples. It's been around for ages.


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## nordicguy (Sep 14, 2019)

Just my 2 cents re: prefered drums atm.
Drum Tree (Kontakt + Kontakt Free Player), which sounds amazing, but is ... expensive.
Just discovered this one for brushes, its called Brushify- Pro (Its a plugin - VST/AU and Standalone - Win and Mac).
And indeed, NI 50's is great.


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## Rob (Sep 14, 2019)

BlackDorito said:


> ...The main problem I've had is the ride cymbals - they always sound too large/heavy and intrusive compared to actual recordings. That may be a result of the recording techniques back then wherein there were no spot mics on the drums for live events ... but still, I should be able to get a small hi-freq 'ting' for a ride pattern instead of a full-freq splash.


yes, my problem as well. In a real situation, after the first couple hits on the ride the cymbal keeps vibrating producing a sustained wide but unobtrusive noise and the "ping" gives the definition of the ride pattern. Shouldn't too difficult to do for a developer, still none has done it so far


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## GNP (Sep 14, 2019)

Thanks you guys. My jazz drum palette is pretty limited...I'll look into the BFD and VSL stuff.


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## GNP (Sep 14, 2019)

BlackDorito said:


> This BFD seems like a massive product. So you need to buy BFD3 for $349 and then add the Jazz Noir expansion for $99 ?



Ok I changed my mind. I had to forgo Zimmer's live concert happening this month in my neck of the woods because I'm broke. I think I'll just stick to Slate Drums for now. Wahahahaha


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## YaniDee (Sep 14, 2019)

NI Session Horns Pro can surely produce some results..no?


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## Lilainjil (Sep 14, 2019)

YaniDee said:


> NI Session Horns Pro can surely produce some results..no?



Results yes, but they are not on the same level of what I get with Chris Hein and the Swing libraries. The solo muted trumpet in Session Horns Pro on the other hand is sublime.


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## DSmolken (Sep 14, 2019)

Rob said:


> Shouldn't too difficult to do for a developer, still none has done it so far


It's not that easy, but yeah, the jazz part of the drum samples market which is really going to care about dense ride patterns isn't that big. Rides, in general, are a pain to sample because they ring so long. Trying to do lots of extra samples with varying amounts of prior buildup would be a big pain, and a lot of data bloat, but this is one of those "there has to be a better way" things...

I tried having ride self-mute with a fadeout time of several seconds, so some of the previous samples keeps ringing. It's, well, decent for reducing the number of active polyphony voices used, but doesn't seem to sound any more realistic IMO.


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## Rob (Sep 14, 2019)

DSmolken said:


> It's not that easy, but yeah, the jazz part of the drum samples market which is really going to care about dense ride patterns isn't that big. Rides, in general, are a pain to sample because they ring so long. Trying to do lots of extra samples with varying amounts of prior buildup would be a big pain, and a lot of data bloat, but this is one of those "there has to be a better way" things...
> 
> I tried having ride self-mute with a fadeout time of several seconds, so some of the previous samples keeps ringing. It's, well, decent for reducing the number of active polyphony voices used, but doesn't seem to sound any more realistic IMO.


I think the simplest way would be to create a looped sample of the "sustain" of the ride, assigned to a given key. The user will keep that key depressed while the conventional key of the ride plays the "pings"...


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## DSmolken (Sep 14, 2019)

You could, and crossfade different levels of buildup via mod wheel. Might or might not work, but seems worth a try. Good thing I don't have any cymbals laying around, haha.


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## Loïc D (Sep 14, 2019)

Maybe this :








Brushify Pro. Brush drum kit for Finger Drummers | Sampleson.


Brushify Pro. Brush drum kit for Finger Drummers | Sampleson.



sampleson.com





I saw it the other day and I’m about to buy it. I’ve no brush kit yet and I like the way it sounds from the demo.


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## TomaeusD (Sep 14, 2019)

LowweeK said:


> Maybe this :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds great! But that image is straight from my nightmares.


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## BlackDorito (Sep 14, 2019)

DSmolken said:


> Good thing I don't have any cymbals laying around, haha.


I bought a snare, HH and ride cymbal in years past and created my own home-sampled kit, including lots of round-robins (before that term was in use). What I discovered was that making brush sounds on a snare was easy and sounded good on playback, in fact any sound that cuts off quickly is easy to prepare and play back (on Emu, in my case). But sustained sounds, like an undamped ride, were a pain and required programming to control the release.


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## Cowtothesky (Nov 22, 2019)

Does anyone have any thoughts or experience using Swing More! from Project Sam? 

I am also in the market for a good jazz set and I see they have one in this library.


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## Loïc D (Nov 22, 2019)

I’m using it on a project right now. 
Bought it not so long ago on sale and it’s the first time I use it “seriously”.
I like the stuff they put inside, it sounds quite good out of the box and you can have very good results if you work a lot on the voicings, articulations, etc.

What annoys me is that articulations and keyswitches are different for each instrument. So basically you cannot copy/paste from an instrument to another one (which could be very handy for quick sax licks).

Hope this helps...


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## Mark Schmieder (Nov 22, 2019)

I'm not quite sure what is being looked for that wasn't in other quite recent discussions on the same topic, but I can definitely say that Soniccouture's MoonKits cuts through the densest of mixes, and may well have the most realistic brushes yet.

Saxes have been covered in depth numerous times in the past half year as well, with Sample Modeling / Audio Modeling still setting a pretty high standard for the others to meet, but of course sax remains the trickiest wind instrument to emulate properly.


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## DSmolken (Nov 22, 2019)

That's interesting... haven't taken a very close look at the Moonkits, but in the quick glance I took, they seemed to be very interesting (with things like using a kick as an oversized floor tom), and marketed as more indie pop rather than jazz. Why do you like the brushes better than the others out there?


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## Mark Schmieder (Nov 22, 2019)

Mostly because they move around the snare head in a very organic way. You can do that with VSL but it's a lot of work. Also, the recording quality is phenomenal, just as with the new Decades from Toontrack. It's an older style of miking the kits, but it works well for everything I've thrown at it so far. And that includes a couple of big band broadway style pieces. But I haven't yet thrown it an intimate chamber jazz piece to compare to VSL, Straight Ahead, and Decades plus other Toontrack.


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## DSmolken (Nov 22, 2019)

Thanks! Will take a closer look and pay attention to that.


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## Zee (Nov 22, 2019)

Couple of months ago we didn't have comprehensive brush kits that can do ballads well and all of a sudden Moonkits and Decades come out and they cover so much with multiple options each it's like they were listening.
for me Moonkits is a lot easier to use but the bleed mics in decades are very powerful if i need certain sound and there's also that damped kit in Decades which so far i haven't heard anything like it


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## fakemaxwell (Nov 23, 2019)

Really digging the Decades expansion for Superior 3, there's 3 or 4 kits that will work for different jazz styles. The sound of Straight Ahead is nice but isn't very easy or fun to use imo. Never understand why drum sample makers don't lay out drums in the standard GM midi, very annoying to have to pluck around and reset your mappings.


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## Mark Schmieder (Nov 23, 2019)

As Straight Ahead's products are so well-loved around here, I try to withhold an y comments that might be perceived as negative (even if they aren't meant to be), as I simply assume that I haven't put enough time into them yet to get the most out of them.

I did finally start using them a few months back on more traditional jazz fare and smaller instrumentation material, and learned a few things that I had indeed missed at first pass, but I still don't find them as flexible overall as Decades or Moonkits (maybe due to my perceived or real absence of detailed mic mixing and other factors), so one of my goals this weekend or over Thanksgiving is to review those projects once more with Decades and Moonkits. I might even get around to it tonight.

I was an early adopter of VSL's jazz kits, and did go back to using them a bit after throwing them in the closet for a couple of years while I was more deeply exploring BFD and then Superior Drummer. They do take a bit more work, but it was worth it in a couple of cases, due to the detail of the brush work and even the stick work on the snares in particular. No kit piece choices but that's not always a bad thing. But with these two new kits, I may find that I permanently retire most of my older choices.


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## Pianolando (Nov 23, 2019)

The only product I have used of the ones OP mentioned is SA brushes, but I can really recommend those. They are sampled and played by people who really understand and have respect for jazz play style and sound, and that is really rare in the sampling world imo. Someday I will buy the sticks library aswell, I think they sound great in the demos.


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## Will Blackburn (Dec 23, 2019)

Has anyone got the Simon Philips drums by steinberg? Can't say i've ever bought their drum packs but wondering if i'm missing out or not? Would really like a decent Wav kit to play with in XO.









Simon Phillips Jazz Drums for Groove Agent


Simon Phillips Jazz Drums expansion brings the renowned, award-winning jazz flair of this legendary drummer to Groove Agent.




www.steinberg.net


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## Rob (Dec 23, 2019)

Will Blackburn said:


> Has anyone got the Simon Philips drums by steinberg? Can't say i've ever bought their drum packs but wondering if i'm missing out or not? Would really like a decent Wav kit to play with in XO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


got them, not bad at all, including the midi patterns that come with the samples. Need a couple examples?


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## Will Blackburn (Dec 23, 2019)

Rob said:


> got them, not bad at all, including the midi patterns that come with the samples. Need a couple examples?



Yes please Rob that would be great


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## Rob (Dec 23, 2019)

Will Blackburn said:


> Yes please Rob that would be great


look, I've just loaded three patterns and put some bass and piano on, cause I don't think it's ok to post naked examples or maybe I'm being too paranoid


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## Will Blackburn (Dec 23, 2019)

Rob said:


> look, I've just loaded three patterns and put some bass and piano on, cause I don't think it's ok to post naked examples or maybe I'm being too paranoid



Thanks Rob nice demo, they sound excellent. Is that the dry OTB sound or did you add any additional reverb? Piano and Bass sound great as well


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## Rob (Dec 23, 2019)

Will Blackburn said:


> Thanks Rob nice demo, they sound excellent. Is that the dry OTB sound or did you add any additional reverb? Piano and Bass sound great as well


You're welcome Will, this is absolutely out of the box, no reverb/compression etc. To me, an old jazz performer, the sticks kit sounds a bit on the fusion side, especially the kick drum, I prefer the brushed one. But the recording was very well done, I was surprised to discover that groove agent is a quality instrument... piano is Synchro Steinway and bass SA Bass


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## Mark Schmieder (May 28, 2020)

There is a new product from VGTrumpet called VG Soul Tenor Saxophone:









VGTrumpet releases VG Soul Tenor Saxophone for Kontakt


KVR Audio News: VGTrumpet has released VG Soul Tenor Saxophone for the full version of Kontakt. Details: Set up to work with breath controllers (TEControl, MRT Audio, Yamaha BC3), wind controllers (AKAI EWI, Yamaha ...




www.kvraudio.com





Interestingly, I find the EWI example to have unrealistic piano-like not attack, and the Roland example to have good attack but poor note transitions.

At least from this I can conclude that I should stick with my Yamaha WX5 vs. buying an Aerophone. I already owned an EWI and hated it beyond measure! Too unmusical to have contactless playing (our bodies emit electricity, and mere proximity to the surface can false-trigger a note as there are no keys), and the round hard plastic "mouthpiece" (not really oboe-like as they claim) is also lacking tactile feedback of proper bite and other aspects of playing a real woodwind instrument.

Overall though, I think the timbre of this new offering is more realistic than the SWAM saxes, but playability and articulate phrasing might be another matter entirely. More demos are needed.

BTW I tried to find a product announcement here, but only saw the one at KVR, as well as the search engine not turning up a prior discussion that I know for a fact took place, regarding either their trumpet library or perhaps an earlier pre-announcement of this new tenor sax library.


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## P3TAAL (May 28, 2020)

Mark Schmieder said:


> I'm not quite sure what is being looked for that wasn't in other quite recent discussions on the same topic, but I can definitely say that Soniccouture's MoonKits cuts through the densest of mixes, and may well have the most realistic brushes yet.
> 
> Saxes have been covered in depth numerous times in the past half year as well, with Sample Modeling / Audio Modeling still setting a pretty high standard for the others to meet, but of course sax remains the trickiest wind instrument to emulate properly.



Yes I'm also looking at moonkits. I wonder if they have any sales coming up soon🤔


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## Mark Schmieder (May 28, 2020)

Al Schmidt's Decades library for Superior Drummer also has several excellent brushes kits, mallets, rods, etc., and I use it the most of anything right now.

But if I was starting a new project and playing or creating parts from scratch vs. tweaking and re-rendering older parts, it's possible that MoonKits would always be my first choice for brushes work, due to the multi-octave mapping of different stir articulations and head positions for same.

I think this would work especially well with an electronic drum kit, but I don't own one; I use pads and keyboards as well as direct programming for my drum parts.


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## nordicguy (May 28, 2020)

Another cleaver one that I think is worth a look at is Loop de la crème’s MANHATTAN DRUMS.
Them MAGIC 70S DRUM CREW is also a lot of fun to play with!


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## Peter Williams (May 29, 2020)

BlackDorito said:


> This BFD seems like a massive product. So you need to buy BFD3 for $349 and then add the Jazz Noir expansion for $99 ?


BFD3 is very powerful and really meant to replace or simulate an elaborate recording studio setup. I find it's just too much for me, but it can do just about anything you could want to do, provided that you have time and patience to tweak things. You do not have to buy additional kits and grooves, but you will want to get additional grooves, as the jazz presets are very limited. In fact, for the price, BFD should offer way more grooves and fills than they do. The Groove Monkey stuff is really good, but I almost think it or something like it should be included in the basic product. In all, I'm not a big fan of BFD. I find it overpriced, hard to use and bloated with features that I don't need. The interface is difficult to navigate and illogical, as basic functions are nested with many advanced ones. But if you want a virtual drum studio and you like starting with a nice mix that isn't soaked with reverb or pushed to oblivion with compression and limiters, it's great.


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## keepitsimple (May 29, 2020)

I made a custom kit with Addictive Drums 2 that emulates the sound of Snarky Puppy's Larnell Lewis. He plays a Yamaha Absolute Hybrid kit with dry Zildjian cymbals. 

Very versatile kit, *excels* in jazz/fusion but also works with pretty much every other style.

For brushes, can't help but also recommend Addictive Drums 2 "Jazz Brushes" expansion 🤷‍♂️


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## Mark Schmieder (May 29, 2020)

I sold BFD last year because I wasn't confident of its future and especially because the changes in BFD3 vs. BFD2 made it almost impossible (on macOS at least, where scrolling is very jumpy and coarse) to properly audition your available kit piece choices and not lose your place (once you have a lot of library add-ons, but even with the core kits). BFD2 was FAR better for workflow, but BFD3 sounded better.

I never liked the sound of AD; it always sounded harsh and metallic to me -- though it does have some of the best timbales available (an old Slingerland 1950's set if I recall correctly), and some good brush kits. I never liked its workflow though.

Once Superior Drummer 3 came out, it was game over for me. Finally I had the depth of BFD3 with ideal workflow and great miking techniques -- especially once the Decades pack came out.

I still use MoonKits from Soniccouture as well -- it's a bit grainy sounding, but that's on purpose as it is meant to have a very vintage sound, and sometimes that is what I want. Decades has vintage kits, but with a modern recording sound. MoonKits also has timbales and a few other latin variations, plus an approach to brushes that is somewhat similar to VSL Jazz Drums but more intuitive.


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## ahorsewhocandrive (May 29, 2020)

^ agree here that superior 3 kinda took over all my drums needs once i got it. it's that good

for saxes, i feel like SWAM is the only thing that stands a chance. i've written some stuff with glory days that i'm happy with, but a lot of phrasing is pretty pre-baked and you gotta roll with it. it's also pretty wet and i've found the teldex ambience to be more suited to mixed-genre pieces than anything more purely jazz

jazz is a huge world though so maybe OP can let us know more specifically the sound they're looking for


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## Peter Williams (May 29, 2020)

The saxophone sampled world is a somewhat dismal picture, but I'm finally finding some light with the alto and tenor included in the Broadway Big Band Lite collection. The hint for making a somewhat realistic sound was achieved by Embertone's Sensual Sax instrument. They use dollops of reverb and brighter layering, along with some effective legato transitions to achieve this. If you apply a lot of (your) reverb to the Broadway Lite legato instruments, the keyswitches can give you a good deal of flexibility and tonal variety. In fact, note to note transitions are the smoothest I've heard in such an instrument. But you must have a lot of reverb, and you have to practice too. BBB Lite was on sale for a huge discount last year, so look for that. I play sax decently, so I mostly use my own real instrument, but for convenience and for a timbre I can't duplicate so well, the virtual instrument is a fun and effective alternative.


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## aaronnt1 (Jun 2, 2020)

Thanks everyone for your insightful contributions to this thread. In the end I opted for OT’s Glory Days and VSL Jazz Drums and Straight Ahead drums (jazz and brushes kits). I also added VSL Clarinet and Bass Clarinet on top too.

I couldn’t be happier with Glory Days (well I could as it’s far from perfect!) but the sound is exactly what I was after and is frequently stunning. The saxes especially are ridiculously good, especially the two tenors. The legatos across all saxes and brass are exceptional 95% of the time and buttery smooth and they have captured some good softer dynamics on the saxes so you get the old school Glenn Miller softer vibrato style and good loud fortes too. Brass is also mostly great but for mutes you only get 1 dynamic layer per mute so not so comprehensive there, but they still sound reasonably good and can work well in a mix for mock-up purposes. At least there are a good amount of mutes available.

I really appreciate that they recorded 4 different saxes, trumpets and trombones each with a unique character and sound and stage positioning so you will definitely get the sound you are looking for from at least one of them. And then each has their set of mutes on top. Jazz artics like falls and doits are also quite comprehensive too.

I have to say though that dynamic crossfading across all instruments is pretty terrible, lots of phasing. There are only perhaps two or three workable dynamic levels that sound natural, if you settle on a layer between them, then it will sound like 2 or 3 saxes playing at once. In a mix however and by CC11 manipulation, you can get to one of those levels and get away with it.

I really hope OT update Glory Days, there are some bugs here and there and it would be great if they add extension libraries like a proper mute library with more dynamic layers and legatos. It would be nice if you could have more than 12 articulation slots in capsule.

VSL Jazz drums is excellent and comprehensive with lots of choice and a decent no. of dynamics it seems and I haven’t needed to use the SA Drums at all yet. The VSL clarinet and bass clarinet are also fantastic, legatos are terrific and I have managed to blend nicely with Spaces reverb.


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## BezO (Jun 2, 2020)

My search for a good set of jazz / big band set of horns has resumed. I know they're not orchestral instruments, but I wish more orchestral developers would produce saxes. I'd love a Spitfire big band suite of saxes, trumpets & trombones.

I've given up on finding an NKS compatible set. The best 2 don't do dynamic crossfading (Session Horns Pro & Mojo 2). I'm going to look into Glory Days, though it seems like they don't have a soprano sax. And Chis Hein Horns Complete sounds good too.

BBB lite looks good. I must be getting them mixed up with another developer because I thought they were lacking in articulations. I do wish they had a version that included all the horns, and maybe another with all the horns and mics.

Edit: Mojo 2 does crossfade, at least according to Vir2 support. Anyone use this feature with Mojo 2? How is it? I'm going to take another listen to them.


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## unclecheeks (Jun 2, 2020)

BezO said:


> My search for a good set of jazz / big band set of horns has resumed. I know they're not orchestral instruments, but I wish more orchestral developers would produce saxes. I'd love a Spitfire big band suite of saxes, trumpets & trombones.
> 
> I've given up on finding an NKS compatible set. The best 2 don't do dynamic crossfading (Session Horns Pro & Mojo 2). I'm going to look into Glory Days, though it seems like they don't have a soprano sax. And Chis Hein Horns Complete sounds good too.
> 
> BBB lite looks good. I must be getting them mixed up with another developer because I thought they were lacking in articulations. I do wish they had a version that included all the horns, and maybe another with all the horns and mics.



There were some demo tracks of Infinite Brass kicking arond on this forum (or maybe also in Cory Pelizzari's YT review?) that had some pretty convincing jazzy brass stuff. Maybe not big band, but sounded pretty damn good to my non-discerning ears! Might be worth a look.


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## mekosmowski (Jun 2, 2020)

How does VSL Saxophones work for Jazz? They sound suitable for either orchestral or jazz to me, but my jazz repertoire is even more limited than my me orchestral repertoire.


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## Rob (Jun 2, 2020)

Jazz saxophone and classical are basically two different instruments... I only have the vsl tenor but immediately realized, after the purchase, it wasn't going to work for jazz. Not even the playable range is right, in jazz you need at least three octaves. And, you have to sample a jazz sax player in order to produce a suitable library, like CH and others have done. Timbre, attack, inflections are completely different. So my opinion is, better look elsewhere.


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## BezO (Jun 2, 2020)

unclecheeks said:


> There were some demo tracks of Infinite Brass kicking arond on this forum (or maybe also in Cory Pelizzari's YT review?) that had some pretty convincing jazzy brass stuff. Maybe not big band, but sounded pretty damn good to my non-discerning ears! Might be worth a look.


I will check them out. Thanks!


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## Mark Schmieder (Jun 5, 2020)

As someone who can do OK at classical sax but not so well for jazz (even though I'm great at jazz on my other instruments), I can certainly vouch for needing different libraries, more so than any other instrument I can think of. And VSL is definitely by far my favourite for orchestral sax.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jun 5, 2020)

I've been pretty happy with Chris Hein Horns Pro for section work, but for some reason, I'me feeling a bit more realism of timbre for solo work from CMusic for Soprano Sax at least. I keep revisiting this though, and haven't put enough time into it as I'm hoping to re-do all my old SWAM parts myself or one of the many sax players I work with in my various jazz combos (once our lockdown finally ends).


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## Technostica (Jun 12, 2020)

Mark Schmieder said:


> There is a new product from VGTrumpet called VG Soul Tenor Saxophone:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Any feedback on the VGTrumpet libraries?
I listened to a few videos on YT and they sounded okay.
I don't have a wind controller so that's a non issue for me.

They have a sale on:

"Everything is on sale for 40% off with our SUMMERSALE coupon. Deal ends on June 14, 2020."


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## Johnny (Jun 12, 2020)

+1 on Straight Ahead samples for drums, though without deep diving into sample modeling, I'm really impressed with 8Dio's saxes for the price should you desire that quality of sound


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## Kirk1701 (Aug 5, 2020)

I'm also looking for a swing orchestra library. I judge a library by the tone of its sax ensemble legatos. I want that sweet, golden Count Basie sound. The best I've heard thus far is Glory Days. Expensive though.

I also like Straight Ahead Jazz Horns as they're a jazz oriented company. Many other sample developers are symphonic with ine or two forays into jazz. Straight Ahead is all bebop. That's also what gives me pause. I like uptown swing. But I do like what I've heard so far.

Session Horns and SH Pro are both very good to my ears. I'd be hard-pressed to turn these down on sale. I like how they can be as large or small as you need.


No offense to anyone, but Chris Hein just sounds awful to me. I don't know how any jazz musician is able to work with those sounds. Is there something I'm missing?

I'm fairly aware of most serious offerings, but I'm always open to suggestions.


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## DSmolken (Aug 5, 2020)

The Straight Ahead Jazz Horns are definitely more big band than bebop, probably unlike their drums and bass.


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## Rob (Aug 5, 2020)

Kirk1701 said:


> ...
> 
> 
> No offense to anyone, but Chris Hein just sounds awful to me. I don't know how any jazz musician is able to work with those sounds. Is there something I'm missing?


no affiliation with CH, but I don't think so... it always depends on how you use the sounds. This example I posted a while ago isn't awful at all:



https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/preludetoakiss-mp3.12802/



or this one...



https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/milesahead-mp3.13256/


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## Kirk1701 (Aug 5, 2020)

Rob said:


> no affiliation with CH, but I don't think so... it always depends on how you use the sounds. This example I posted a while ago isn't awful at all:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Appreciate the share. These are fine examples of arrangement and mixing, but the ensemble tones don't cut it for me.

All the CHH stuff sounds strangely accordion-like. That's the only way I can describe it. The solo stuff is better, but they're still very stiff and clinical. 

These would work really well as arrangement mockups for a real-life orchestra, but I need something with a bit more character (for lack of a better term).


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## AceAudioHQ (Aug 5, 2020)

I like muletone drums for jazzy stuff


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## Rob (Aug 5, 2020)

Kirk1701 said:


> Appreciate the share. These are fine examples of arrangement and mixing, but the ensemble tones don't cut it for me.
> 
> All the CHH stuff sounds strangely accordion-like. That's the only way I can describe it. The solo stuff is better, but they're still very stiff and clinical.
> 
> These would work really well as arrangement mockups for a real-life orchestra, but I need something with a bit more character (for lack of a better term).


You wouldn't call them awful though, that's my point...


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## Kirk1701 (Aug 5, 2020)

Rob said:


> You wouldn't call them awful though, that's my point...



The samples I would. The arrangement and mix swings just fine.


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## Kirk1701 (Aug 5, 2020)

Gene Pool said:


> The
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't mind the roominess, but that's all adjustable with the mic choices.

As for Mancini strings, 8Dio Agitato series has that sewn up. I've been enjoying the try pack anyway.


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## IdealSequenceG (Aug 10, 2020)

Chris Hein Horns Pro - 1 x Alto sax solo Test w/ Altiverb, Gullfoss


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## Kirk1701 (Aug 10, 2020)

IdealSequenceG said:


> Chris Hein Horns Pro - 1 x Alto sax solo Test w/ Altiverb, Gullfoss




Thanks for sharing. Sounds nice.


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## Mark Schmieder (Aug 10, 2020)

The CMusic horns are characterful, but you might find their implementations more limited than CHH or some other choices. There's definitely a strong distinction between the players, just as with CHH.


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## Kirk1701 (Aug 11, 2020)

Mark Schmieder said:


> The CMusic horns are characterful, but you might find their implementations more limited than CHH or some other choices. There's definitely a strong distinction between the players, just as with CHH.



It's the attack and release that are weird. There's a digital "sploink" that I don't care for. It's distracting.


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## bill5 (Sep 10, 2020)

Peter Williams said:


> The hint for making a somewhat realistic sound was achieved by Embertone's Sensual Sax instrument. They use dollops of reverb and brighter layering, along with some effective legato transitions to achieve this.


I thought their legato (and tone) was just kind of OK, and of course it varies depending on what and how you're playing. Also it had this odd aftertouch kind of effect if you held a note down too long that would be a deal-killer for me, but maybe there's something there I'm not understanding, I didn't have hours and hours to mess with it.

Thanks for that CH demo. Sounds good overall IMO, although I noticed a slight little "pop" at the end of some notes that sounded unnatural to me. 

Still shopping saxes but appreciate all this info!


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## Jkist (Sep 10, 2020)

Wow, I've got to say I am seriously impressed with the SWAM sax stuff. I had checked out their solo violin stuff and didn't love anything I heard in particular, but the saxophones are that perfect mix of realistic enough, but trading a bit of realism for pure expressiveness, which is obviously huge in jazz.

You could get a sax library that has been DEEP sampled, with gigabytes and gigabytes of articulations, but the fact that the SWAM stuff is like 200mb with the same expressiveness is insane. Does AudioModeling ever do sales?


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## bill5 (Sep 10, 2020)

Jkist said:


> trading a bit of realism for pure expressiveness, which is obviously huge in jazz.


And results in more realism.


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## Peter Williams (Sep 11, 2020)

bill5 said:


> I thought their legato (and tone) was just kind of OK, and of course it varies depending on what and how you're playing. Also it had this odd aftertouch kind of effect if you held a note down too long that would be a deal-killer for me, but maybe there's something there I'm not understanding, I didn't have hours and hours to mess with it.
> 
> Thanks for that CH demo. Sounds good overall IMO, although I noticed a slight little "pop" at the end of some notes that sounded unnatural to me.
> 
> Still shopping saxes but appreciate all this info!


It is very inexpensive, fun and has a lot of character. But it is a bit of a "one trick pony." I agree that It isn't too realistic.


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## Will Blackburn (Feb 10, 2021)

Guys can any of you suggest a drum kit to get in this ballpark? Starts at 27m


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## DimensionsTomorrow (Feb 10, 2021)

Will Blackburn said:


> Guys can any of you suggest a drum kit to get in this ballpark? Starts at 27m



Looking forward to hearing what people suggest. That sounds great. I’ve never heard it before. I’d also like a good recommendation for those horns. Sounds awesome.


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## Lee Blaske (Feb 10, 2021)

If you've got good keyboard chops and a good wind controller (I like the Hornberg wind controller), the SWAM instruments are pretty great. You can really play and phrase them in ways that you can't play samples. If you know what you're listening for, sampled sax sticks out like a sore thumb.


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## Wally Garten (Feb 10, 2021)

DimensionsTomorrow said:


> Looking forward to hearing what people suggest. That sounds great. I’ve never heard it before. I’d also like a good recommendation for those horns. Sounds awesome.


Same. I'd also be curious to know _what_ horns those are. I hear something that sounds like a bassoon or bass sax, and a higher sax, trumpets in and out for sure, but also some other growly, falling... brass? Trombones, maybe? And/or saxes? My untutored ears refuse to say for sure! But this is very, very cool.


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## Will Blackburn (Feb 11, 2021)

DimensionsTomorrow said:


> Looking forward to hearing what people suggest. That sounds great. I’ve never heard it before. I’d also like a good recommendation for those horns. Sounds awesome.





Wally Garten said:


> Same. I'd also be curious to know _what_ horns those are. I hear something that sounds like a bassoon or bass sax, and a higher sax, trumpets in and out for sure, but also some other growly, falling... brass? Trombones, maybe? And/or saxes? My untutored ears refuse to say for sure! But this is very, very cool.



Those horns are nice. I'm wondering if Glory Days by OT might do a job there. Just sifting through their Baritone Sax Sforzando patches and it comes close tone wise although doesn't go as low. A bit thin as well but could run them through something like Kush's Reddi and then drench them in reverb like that track! Love the verb on that track it suits the mood perfectly.


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## DimensionsTomorrow (Feb 11, 2021)

Will Blackburn said:


> Those horns are nice. I'm wondering if Glory Days by OT might do a job there. Just sifting through their Baritone Sax Sforzando patches and it comes close tone wise although doesn't go as low. A bit thin as well but could run them through something like Kush's Reddi and then drench them in reverb like that track! Love the verb on that track it suits the mood perfectly.


That’s a library I’ve always been interested in, along with Mojo 2.

I’ve been listening to the rest of that soundtrack today and I have to say it sort of helped nudge me to pick up LCO strings and Alternative Solo Strings during the current Spitfire sale. Really, really cool soundtrack, lots of ideas to draw upon, but I like the track you linked to originally the best.

Do you own Fluffy Audio’s Spaghetti Western?

PS: down the rabbit hole on that soundtrack. Woody’s studio is sick. Love the tones he’s getting with the Buchla. That reverb.


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## DimensionsTomorrow (Feb 12, 2021)

Will Blackburn said:


> Guys can any of you suggest a drum kit to get in this ballpark? Starts at 27m



Not sure if you have Fluffy Audio’s Spaghetti Western, but I pulled up the drum kit in there tonight and to my ears it’s pretty darn close to that track. You have to mess with the mixer, but it’s definitely got the vibe in my opinion. Really huge kick drum. I hadn’t messed with that kit much, since I mainly use Addictive Drums 2 for all my drums, but I’ll be using it more now.

Also, I discovered that the muted trumpet patch has some pretty growly stuff. I need to explore this whole library more. Haha. I bought it back around Thanksgiving and never really dove deep into it. That Red Dead soundtrack is good inspiration.


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## Will Blackburn (Feb 12, 2021)

DimensionsTomorrow said:


> Not sure if you have Fluffy Audio’s Spaghetti Western, but I pulled up the drum kit in there tonight and to my ears it’s pretty darn close to that track. You have to mess with the mixer, but it’s definitely got the vibe in my opinion. Really huge kick drum. I hadn’t messed with that kit much, since I mainly use Addictive Drums 2 for all my drums, but I’ll be using it more now.
> 
> Also, I discovered that the muted trumpet patch has some pretty growly stuff. I need to explore this whole library more. Haha. I bought it back around Thanksgiving and never really dove deep into it. That Red Dead soundtrack is good inspiration.


Wow excellent find Dimensions, yes i do but like you never properly took a look at it. It actually gets really close. Kick just needs a bit of taming and even the snare has the right thickness. Annd the cymbals pretty much nail it as well. Nice one. Going to have to load that up tonight. That's going to help with the next thing - recreating that Reverb.


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## DimensionsTomorrow (Feb 12, 2021)

Will Blackburn said:


> Wow excellent find Dimensions, yes i do but like you never properly took a look at it. It actually gets really close. Kick just needs a bit of taming and even the snare has the right thickness. Annd the cymbals pretty much nail it as well. Nice one. Going to have to load that up tonight. That's going to help with the next thing - recreating that Reverb.


Great! Let me know how that goes! I’m hoping to try that drum kit out with my new Spitfire LSO and AltSS purchases this weekend. I have a feeling they will go well together.

I also started going through the Spitfire Studio Orchestra Brass Pro decorative patches last night to see if I could find anything close to those crazy horns, but haven’t had much luck so far (maybe the time machine patches could get crazier?). Gonna dig around a bit through all my other libraries to see what I can find. I seem to remember Big Fish Audio Vintage Horns 2 having some wild stuff in it.


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## DimensionsTomorrow (Mar 6, 2021)

Will Blackburn said:


> Wow excellent find Dimensions, yes i do but like you never properly took a look at it. It actually gets really close. Kick just needs a bit of taming and even the snare has the right thickness. Annd the cymbals pretty much nail it as well. Nice one. Going to have to load that up tonight. That's going to help with the next thing - recreating that Reverb.


Will,

I have been making a new template of my various VIs, and discovered that the Abbey Road Vintage kits also sound a lot like this. They are in Komplete Ultimate if you own it. They actually sound quite good. Worth a look for this vibe. 









ABBEY ROAD VINTAGE DRUMMER


The drums, the studio, the drummer: Ultra-rare drums with the authentic sound and feel of a golden era. Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London.




www.native-instruments.com


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