# For the experienced users of UVI synths.....



## Thlian (Aug 6, 2022)

Any of the synths on board that can compare to Omnisphere, Zebra2 and other good ones?
Reason I ask is because I didn't have any experience with none of them, but are drive into and learn to use one of them and since I already have the entre UVI univers....


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## doctoremmet (Aug 6, 2022)

UVI basically have just one synth: Falcon 2.5

It is extremely capable and absolutely on par with the ones you mention.

All other “synths” by UVI are either Falcon expansions or samples of old classic synths. They are not true synths in any purist sense of the word, not emulations like Cherry Audio’s or Arturia’s. They are more comparable to the way Soundpaint and IK Multimedia’s Syntronik release sample packs based on old synths. The UVI sampled synths are tweakable, of course, but remember ultimately you’re stuck with whatever core sounds are recorded. In a sense this of course is also comparable with Omnisphere that has loads of samples in there that can be used as sound sources.

FWIW, Falcon is such a brilliant synth, as in: versatile, that it serves as my main workhorse. I love it. But it is not the synth that I have the most passionate feelings about if you know what I mean. Those feelings are usually reserved for weirder one trick pony synths in my case hehe. Usually FM synths, lol. And the Dawesome stuff.

If you have Falcon, I’d just go ahead and stick with it and learn it. It is an incredibly inspiring and terrific synthesizer that can serve you well. If you ever need more inspiring soundpacks, check out Simon Stockhausen’s “Falcon Singles” packs over at Patchpool.


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## liquidlino (Aug 6, 2022)

I have Falcon, vintage vault, synth anthology, tons of Falcon expansions. Great synth, great sample packs. But..... Hell of a lot of money and disk space. Plus Falcon is not for the faint hearted. If you've not programmed a synth before, I recommend starting with a one page synth, something like pigments (I own and love), serum or the free vital. u-he synths are amazing, hive, zebra, repro are the picks for new starters. 

But Falcon is truly a do it all workhorse. Desert island synth. But @Pier sold his within days of buying it, it's not for everyone. Plus there's hardly any third party content for it, if that's of importance to you. Serum has five billion sound packs for sale, increasing by about a gazillion a day.


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## Thlian (Aug 6, 2022)

I don't think I want to start out with a synth that breaks my motivation. Looked at MassiveX and I couldn't figure out what all the settings was for. Some of them I couldn't hear any difference at all, but I can't hear treble very good and 3-4 kHz area on right ear is f****d up. Don't know if this matter. By the way is there a short and good wiki that explains the different settings in a synth? Seems like Some settings where named after persons and they kinda stick to it. Just for curiosity, it's not enough to just turn a knob. I've come to accept that I can use presets, but it would be nice to know how to use it though.

And what's up with all this envelopes, is there one for various settings? I'm confused.


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## liquidlino (Aug 6, 2022)

Best bet, pick a synth you like the sound of the demos, and which looks like a simple enough interface. Buy it, and then watch as many tutorial videos for it as possible on youtube. Learning synthesis takes months/years, but the basics are straightforward. Even just get Vital for free and there's tons of tutorial videos on youtube for it - it's a great synth for learning on as it's so visual and mostly on one page. Start with a "subtractive synth", rather than FM or modular.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 6, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Start with a "subtractive synth", rather than FM or modular.


Absolutely. But I was under the impression OP already owns Falcon? If that is the case, I’d argue you may have to stick with it and create some subtractive “init” patches for it and work from there.

Reading OP’s other posts I gather he may also need to do a course to learn the synthesizer basics. Then you’ll know what’s up with all those envelopes.

Maybe get a simple Minimoog emulation (Cherry Audio Miniverse, Arturia has one, GForce as well), and the Syntorial course, and just start from scratch and learn the basics of subtractive synthesis. If you don’t know anything, Falcon or Zebra etc. will be less than ideal starting points.


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## Thlian (Aug 6, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Absolutely. But I was under the impression OP already owns Falcon? If that is the case, I’d argue you may have to stick with it and create some subtractive “init” patches for it and work from there.
> 
> Reading OP’s other posts I gather he may also need to do a course to learn the synthesizer basics. Then you’ll know what’s up with all those envelopes.
> 
> Maybe get a simple Minimoog emulation (Cherry Audio Miniverse, Arturia has one, GForce as well), and the Syntorial course, and just start from scratch and learn the basics of subtractive synthesis. If you don’t know anything, Falcon or Zebra etc. will be less than ideal starting points.


I`ll take you up on that one  
I have monark by Native, did some google stuff and found out that Native with Monark has their take on the Minimoog.


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## Thlian (Aug 6, 2022)

You have a trait to make me come to my sense @doctoremmet 
I`ve downloaded Cherry Audio Miniverse and signed up for the first 22 lessons at Syntorial (FREE), adding it to the tutorial list. Getting quite long


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## doctoremmet (Aug 6, 2022)

The Mini architecture is a cornerstone, so before you can grasp what Falcon is, but need to ask what role envelopes play, I think Syntorial is the way forward. Every synthesist needs to learn the basics first. There’s no use turning some knobs and asking oneself whether or not one hears ‘a difference”. Subtractive synthesis is not hard, but like learning every musical instrument: practice is key.

I wish you good luck and a lot of fun learning your way around Monark / Miniverse. May it serve you well (it will).


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## Pier (Aug 6, 2022)

Falcon can do basically everything but I didn't gel with the workflow which is why I ended up selling it a couple of months later.

@Thlian from your comments I don't think you should get into Falcon though. You will probably get an indigestion...

If you like the sound, Vital is a great synth for beginners since it's very simple to use and everything is animated. Oh and it's free.

U-He Hive is another good recommendation. It sounds great and is very easy to use.

Pigments is another synth that you might like.

As mentioned by the Doctor, Syntorial is also a great place to start your synth journey.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 6, 2022)

@Thlian 

I was just thinking, apart from learning the basics, definitely check all the Falcon tutorials Dan Worrall has done. The man is an absolute authority in the audio field and a pleasure to listen to. Then also check everything by @venustheory (Cameron) on Falcon, or rather: everything the man has ever published. Both have taught me a LOT. And even better: I have had a ton of fun while learning from them.


Playlist of tutorials by Dan:




A couple of cool videos by Cameron:



Playlist:


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## Bee_Abney (Aug 6, 2022)

I'm also new to synthesis and I've done most of my learning on Falcon. As I was particularly interested in working with samples, though, it was a choice that made sense for me. It's workflow is not worse than Kontakt's, and it is also a powerful synth.

However, I probably have made the biggest steps forward I've made with learning synthesis have probably been taken using simple subtractive synthesis - either in Falcon or on a simpler synth such as Monark. Monark sounds magnificent to me. I'm not sure it sounds a lot like the Minimoog's I'm familiar with from records, but it does work the same way. I think there is even a more authentic Minimoog skin in the Reaktor User's library.

As you already have access to these two synths, I think these are good places to start with. You can work on building sounds and listening to how the filter and ADSR settings shape the sound tonally and temporally; and once you learn the most basic methods of loading up oscillators and effects, and using basic LFOs, I think you could have a lot of fun with Falcon.

However, as I understand it - and my own experience bears this out - Falcon has a very distinctive, semi-modular workflow. Learning something like Vital might get you further along in familiarising yourself with interacting with soft synths more generally.

Whatever you do - whatever you do! - unless you happen to be very rich, don't start buying synths to get the sounds you like until you've made some good progress learning basic synthesis techniques so that you know what you can get out of what you have a little better. Then any further purchases can be made from a position of greater understanding.

Those are just a few thoughts. You can get a lot of good advice one how to learn synthesis; but you'll only learn by working with a synth whether it works for you.


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## Thlian (Aug 6, 2022)

I got myself a $39 Cherry Audio Miniverse, and besides Arturia V probably the one close st to Minimoog in appearance. 
No, I wont buy anything. In the 70's they called Minimoog affordable. Not so much anymore.

I've already started the basics, though some of the basics I already "knew"! But it doesn't hurt learning from the very basics. The tutorials doesn't go into what the various elements are and how they work. For instance, what are the difference between OSC and LFO, they are both oscillators and in which context are they used?

Maybe you can do some zoom tutoring @doctoremmet 😜


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## doctoremmet (Aug 6, 2022)

Primal response: get a better tutorial! 

The OSC is an oscillator that you’ll use as THE basic building block of your audible sound. Typically two or three oscillators make up the basic waveform of your sound.

An LFO, or low frequency oscillator, is used for modulation of other parameters of your sound. For instance to create a vibrato effect to one of your oscillators. Or maybe to apply it to cutoff or resonance of your VCF / filter. Modulation is what you’ll use to go from a static sound to a moving interesting one.

It is really important to get a good grasp of these basic concepts. I am amazed Syntorial (which I understand is a revered course) does not start with explaining those… ?


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## doctoremmet (Aug 6, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Maybe you can do some zoom tutoring @doctoremmet 😜


I’d love to but I am pressed for time as it is


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## Thlian (Aug 7, 2022)

"ONLY" $149 For the whole Syntorial. After 22 lessons I`m pretty much there 
I also managed to buy Arturia Mini V3 because their have a modern expansion, a very good manual and in app tutorials, describing use of everything. 
Guess I can find tons on Youtube, the trick is to find the really good ones


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## Alchemedia (Aug 7, 2022)

Thlian said:


> "ONLY" $149 For the whole Syntorial. After 22 lessons I`m pretty much there
> I also managed to buy Arturia Mini V3 because their have a modern expansion, a very good manual and in app tutorials, describing use of everything.
> Guess I can find tons on Youtube, the trick is to find the really good ones



Don't try to cram your way through Syntorial. Take your time--synthesis is deep. Btw, a new version is in the works. Good luck!


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## jbuhler (Aug 7, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> Don't try to cram your way through Syntorial. Take your time--synthesis is deep. Btw, a new version is in the works. Good luck!


The new version has a lot of improvements. It’s one of the best bits of training software I’ve used. 

Also it’s been interesting to see where my aged ears have lost high frequency response and so I have difficulty hearing some of the higher filter settings.


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## Thlian (Aug 7, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> The new version has a lot of improvements. It’s one of the best bits of training software I’ve used.
> 
> Also it’s been interesting to see where my aged ears have lost high frequency response and so I have difficulty hearing some of the higher filter settings.


So the syntorial I just tried isn't the new one? That's good, the UI and response of that one are shait. 
Maybe that's some of my issues, I don't hear the small variations in pitch on the top end. But in the end they matter because they serve an important part of a biggest picture. Anyway, that's what I've come to understand after sitting down with tutorials, reading and learning the VST synth. I think I'm gonna record some tracks of the presets and work my own way to the sounds, to see if I can make my own workflow that works for me and my hearing 😊

Still don't understand why it's called LFO, it's also an oscillator that manipulate sounds in other oscillators, filters, effects and so on, and in every frequency! 🤔
One guy said it's an oscillator that oscillate below human hearing. So maybe that sub frequent sound are being utilized to manipulate others. Still don't understand, but if it's one of them "it just works that way", like a rule or something that you don't understand, and politics 🥴 Hands down and move on....


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## jbuhler (Aug 7, 2022)

Thlian said:


> So the syntorial I just tried isn't the new one? That's good, the UI and response of that one are shait.
> Maybe that's some of my issues, I don't hear the small variations in pitch on the top end. But in the end they matter because they serve an important part of a biggest picture. Anyway, that's what I've come to understand after sitting down with tutorials, reading and learning the VST synth. I think I'm gonna record some tracks of the presets and work my own way to the sounds, to see if I can make my own workflow that works for me and my hearing 😊
> 
> Still don't understand why it's called LFO, it's also an oscillator that manipulate sounds in other oscillators, filters, effects and so on, and in every frequency! 🤔
> One guy said it's an oscillator that oscillate below human hearing. So maybe that sub frequent sound are being utilized to manipulate others. Still don't understand, but if it's one of them "it just works that way", like a rule or something that you don't understand, and politics 🥴 Hands down and move on....


Syntorial 2.0 is still in beta. In any case, they've completely redesigned the synth itself in a way that I think is easier to find things, and they've worked quite a lot on the scoring system in ways that are helpful and encouraging, I think. There are still times where quite different solutions can yield similar results and the scoring system doesn't always pick that up. They are currently rerecording the accompanying videos, hopefully with a few more practical guides. 

For those who have lost high frequency hearing, the issues are less hearing the low pass filter setting per se and more with not being able to hear differences in the upper frequencies when the rate of change is approximately the same because you can't lock in on the start point. There are still some things I just can't hear any longer, and in those cases I just have to guess. I asked them to add some help for those with high frequency hearing loss.

LFO is just a low frequency oscillator and typically it works at the scale of beats, measures, and such to make modulation changes that correspond to recurring musical units. So these are very low frequencies, well below 1hz. But, no, LFOs don't have to be relegated to such slow speeds.


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## liquidlino (Aug 7, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Still don't understand why it's called LFO, it's also an oscillator that manipulate sounds in other oscillators, filters, effects and so on, and in every frequency! 🤔
> One guy said it's an oscillator that oscillate below human hearing. So maybe that sub frequent sound are being utilized to manipulate others. Still don't understand, but if it's one of them "it just works that way", like a rule or something that you don't understand, and politics 🥴 Hands down and move on....


Just think of an LFO as someone else turning knobs on a synth for you, according to the rate and "shape" that you want. So if you want the filter to slowly open and close again every 2 bars, to add some movement to a PAD sound for instance, then you set a triangle LFO at 2 bars cycle rate.

Or, faster LFOs (2-4 times a second, or 3-4 hertz - 1 hertz = 1 time per second) with a sine wave can simulate things like vibrato, if you route the LFO to modulate the pitch of an oscillator (just a little bit, like 10 cents)

What's really fun is setting an LFO to modulate the rate of another LFO, and then that second LFO modulates something on an oscillator or filter. Then you start getting lots of fun. Or using envelopes to modulate the rate of an LFO.

Or, faster LFOs still that enter realms of audiability, from 20hz upwards, this starts to be "Audio Rate Modulation" and you start entering the realms of Frequency Modulation (FM) synthesis, which is a whole new ball game.

But really, you could ignore LFOs completely when starting out. Focus on Oscillators and Filters and Envelopes to start with, make classic synth plucks and SuperSaws, Reese Basses etc.


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## Thlian (Aug 7, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Just think of an LFO as someone else turning knobs on a synth for you, according to the rate and "shape" that you want. So if you want the filter to slowly open and close again every 2 bars, to add some movement to a PAD sound for instance, then you set a triangle LFO at 2 bars cycle rate.
> 
> Or, faster LFOs (2-4 times a second, or 3-4 hertz - 1 hertz = 1 time per second) with a sine wave can simulate things like vibrato, if you route the LFO to modulate the pitch of an oscillator (just a little bit, like 10 cents)
> 
> ...


Is there a list of names and sounds that utilize the 2 or 3 oscillators that's normally onboard a classic synth like the one I have? At least virtually, can't afford a Model D.


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## liquidlino (Aug 7, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Is there a list of names and sounds that utilize the 2 or 3 oscillators that's normally onboard a classic synth like the one I have? At least virtually, can't afford a Model D.


There's not really any standardized naming conventions for synth articulations (like say for an orchestra), beyond high level categorizations like Pad PD (think string longs), Pluck PL (think string shorts, or guitar plucks), Lead LD (for playing top line melody), Bass BA. But really, sounds cross cut these categories, so they become pretty arbitrary. Most synths can produce most sounds that you'd commonly want to use. The subtlety comes with things like how they handle unison mode (when an oscillator plays up to 16 instances of itself all phase shifted and panned differently to create a pleasant chorus effect, or the massive supersaw wide sound). Also things like how "dirty" the filters are, the filter curves and frequency responses. Most of the character of a synth comes from the filter. A filter is just a fancy word for an single band EQ most of the time.

But, you'll learn all this in time and with lots of exploration and playing with presets and making your own. A great exercise is to have two synths open. Then try and rebuild factory presets from one synth in the other synth. Really opens your eyes as to how sound designers setup the oscillators and envelopes etc, to give low end warmth and high end definition. Even bass patches extend right up to 3/4k and beyond to get punch. Many bass patches tend to be a low Sine or Square wave down at sub-bass frequencies, and then a more complex wave form higher up an octave or two higher.

One thing to think about - all sound is basically collections of sine waves at different frequencies. The Harmonic series tells us how natural sounds have harmonics at different multiples of the fundamental frequency. Synths tend to follow the harmonic series too (some allow you to mess with the harmonic series to create enharmonic sounds, which are great for percussion or experimental sounds). This is a great reading topic if you were so inclined. THere's a wondeful series from sound on sound about synthesis, which is pretty deep, but the first few installments are easy to follow along with. https://www.soundonsound.com/series/synth-secrets-sound-sound


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## doctoremmet (Aug 7, 2022)

An LFO is an oscillator that is literally wired into other oscillators or parameters of filters etc., so the waveforms it produces do not go audibly into an amplifier. It’s an oscillator you won’t hear directly, but can only be used to output a waveform that then messes with some other parameter of your patch.

Now… to even further blur lines. You sometimes also use a regular oscillator to modulate another regular oscillator, to get frequency modulation effects. But that is a type of modulation that sonically alters the combined waveform output by those two oscillators. The straight signal of an LFO cannot be routed straight into the amp / VCA stage of your Minimoog.


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## Thlian (Aug 8, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> The straight signal of an LFO cannot be routed straight into the amp / VCA stage of your Minimoog.


Sure it can.....in the advanced section 😉
Wasn't a part of the standard Minomoog though 😂

I like bass SO much, and I can't this wave sound away. Maybe that's just analog. You know the sublayer under a powerful string section or when the alien shop crashes down and the grund is shaking from the woofer. I can't find that.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 8, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Sure it can.....in the advanced section 😉
> Wasn't a part of the standard Minomoog though 😂


Ssssssttttt haha - I am trying to make things easier by mansplaining shit to you


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## doctoremmet (Aug 8, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Sure it can.....in the advanced section 😉
> Wasn't a part of the standard Minomoog though 😂
> 
> I like bass SO much, and I can't this wave sound away. Maybe that's just analog. You know the sublayer under a powerful string section or when the alien shop crashes down and the grund is shaking from the woofer. I can't find that.


Easy. Dial in any sine wave on one oscillator. The bottom notes are instant 808s.

Oh - happy 808 day by the way.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 8, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Maybe that's just analog.


Nah. Any decent software synth can make one.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 8, 2022)




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## liquidlino (Aug 8, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Nah. Any decent software synth can make one.


Ha. There's really very little difference between physical analog synths and soft synths - maybe on monophonic synths like Neutron and Pro 3 (I could never get Voltage Modular to sound like my Neutron when it came to the filter or the sync). But polyphonic synths... I don't think anyone could tell the difference in a mix, and even barely when solo'd.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 8, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> I don't think anyone could tell the difference in a mix, and even barely when solo'd.


I know I can’t. Me and my best pal have done many A/B tests. OB-Xa (real one) VS the Arturia. Scored a 50/50. Same with various other models. So those tribal discussions about “analog sounds like WAY better fam” below most Youtube walkthroughs of synth emulations are mostly just based on myth, imho. I also think most people wouldn’t even have had access to any of the real hardware haha. I for one am extremely happy to have my synths available to me in software format!


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## Bee_Abney (Aug 8, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I know I can’t. Me and my best pal have done many A/B tests. OB-Xa (real one) VS the Arturia. Scored a 50/50. Same with various other models. So those tribal discussions about “analog sounds like WAY better fam” below most Youtube walkthroughs of synth emulations are mostly just based on myth, imho. I also think most people wouldn’t even have had access to any of the real hardware haha. I for one am extremely happy to have my synths available to me in software format!


It's about the feel, man! Of course you can't tell with an A/B test. You're listening with your left brain and analysing and thinking. But, just the feel, man! Then they're a world apart!

[finio advocatus diaboli]


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## Thlian (Aug 8, 2022)

Turning knobs on the real thing must be like....the difference between.....you know. Some internet thing starting in 96 and home 🤔

But O-M-G! The prophet5! That thing sounds like climax. Oh and the Roland Jupiter 8 and not at least Minomoog.

None of them I will never afford to buy 😞


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## Bee_Abney (Aug 8, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Turning knobs on the real thing must be like....the difference between.....you know. Some internet thing starting in 96 and home 🤔
> 
> But O-M-G! The prophet5! That thing sounds like climax. Oh and the Roland Jupiter 8 and not at least Minomoog.
> 
> None of them I will never afford to buy 😞


But you can get some decent samples made with them. And the emulations of course. And if you get a synth that is completely CC assignable, you can recreate knob twiddling with a controller.

Then, if that's still not enough for you, just buy one little hardware filter to run it all through. Just the one little Eurorack module. Then that will be enough. You won't need anymore. Just the one. Although you will want something to modulate it with. Okay, two. Ooh, and an external reverb! That's three. And that lo-fi module sounds really great in Snakes of Russia's music. Just four. You'll be able to stop at any time!


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## doctoremmet (Aug 8, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> But you can get some decent samples made with them. And the emulations of course. And if you get a synth that is completely CC assignable, you can recreate knob twiddling with a controller.
> 
> Then, if that's still not enough for you, just buy one little hardware filter to run it all through. Just the one little Eurorack module. Then that will be enough. You won't need anymore. Just the one. Although you will want something to modulate it with. Okay, two. Ooh, and an external reverb! That's three. And that lo-fi module sounds really great in Snake's of Russia's music. Just four. You'll be able to stop at any time!


But what’s the value of all of that without having it go through a vintage TEAC, to warm up the signal a little bit? These days I run VI-Control through my old Betamax to slightly bitcrush the resolution a bit, before I can even read people’s posts. Really the difference is like, night and day.


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## Bee_Abney (Aug 8, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> But what’s the value of all of that without having it go through a vintage TEAC, to warm up the signal a little bit? These days I run VI-Control through my old Betamax to slightly bitcrush the resolution a bit, before I can even read people’s posts. Really the difference is like, night and day.


Yeah, I know, running it through a bit crusher plugin just isn't the same. I mean, it's just as hard to read, but it doesn't have the _warmth_!


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## Thlian (Aug 8, 2022)

Welcome todays episode of "Daily Sarcasm"!

Admit it @doctoremmet that you have one? You like to touch it?

Okay, so what's the deal here. If the virtual ones are just as good, more flexible and at least a space saver.
Take the guys who made the sound track for Stranger Things. Off course they used the computer, but they also used a mountain of synths and a pile of patch cables. 
Why? When you can sidechain almost every single vst synth out there and make sounds from here to the moon?


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## doctoremmet (Aug 8, 2022)

I do have one. In fact more than one.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 8, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Why?


For fun? There’s something magical about sitting behind an original. The tactile factor. But also most of it is just romantic BS really.

But in all honesty, these days I am just as excited when I get to play a synth like Cherry Audio’s Dreamsynth, Arturia’s Prophet VS or Rhizomatic Plasmonic. And when I am programming a synth, I actually prefer the complete recall, modular architecture and visualisation that synths like Falcon, Phase Plant or MSF offer.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 8, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> most of it is just romantic BS really.


Which is of course 50% of the fun, at least for me it is.


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## Bee_Abney (Aug 8, 2022)

Some people find it harder to work without the limitations of hardware. Some, for instance, prefer their hardware not to have midi capabilities, as then they compose and perform without all the editing possibilities. It keeps them focused and helps their creativity.

Others may want the hardware for its 'processing' power, as doing the same thing on a computer would be taxing.

Then, there is the fact that emulations are so popular. There has to be something to emulate; so innovation in hardware can drive innovations in software too (and vice versa, for that matter).

Plus, some of the software depends upon samples. So the hardware world is a part of the chain of creativity; whether you do the sampling yourself or not.

Plus, I dunno.


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## Bee_Abney (Aug 8, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Which is of course 50% of the fun, at least for me it is.


EDITED.

[I went too far!]


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## Thlian (Aug 8, 2022)

I should have made a own thread for this "My way to learning synth...." But I can't find the right category.

@doctoremmet you have a respectable collection. With some Nice stuff ass well, now you just have to stack them properly.

After sending a few hours on my virtual arturia, I kinda wish I had the real deal. It's cumbersome using the mouse to adjust the knobs. Actually I just need a module with the most essential and use my keyboard. 
It's easy to figure out what each knob do, the tricky part is getting to know how one affects the other. Also if I want a specific sound or mimic one, know where to turn and twist, that is not learned in a day......or two. Have to go looking for a good tutorial again, I just got frustrated today trying to figure out a sound, and it was only a fraction turn on one knob that was missing. That stuff can put a real showstopper on my motivation!


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## Thlian (Aug 9, 2022)

Something tells me I want a synth. Call me a romantic as well, nothing beats the real thing. What do I want? Moog, preferably Model D. But you have Sub Phatty, 25 and 37 subsequent, matriarch, grandmother and off course Moog One. But thats a $6000 synth so that's kinda ruled out. I think about the grandmother. Analog, introducing to patching and hey, it has a reverb as well.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 9, 2022)

Buy a similar Behringer model for way less and see how much use you get out of it (as in: fun).


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## doctoremmet (Aug 9, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I just got frustrated today trying to figure out a sound, and it was only a fraction turn on one knob that was missing. That stuff can put a real showstopper on my motivation!


Because this also applies to hardware synths that cost thousands of $ 

So something tells ME that you maybe don’t want a synth, but rather just the satisfaction that acquiring new toys can bring. Believe me, I know the feeling.


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## Thlian (Aug 9, 2022)

Yup, that's a flaw that I was built with. What if I learn how to use it enough to be confident using it amongst others. (Just an example) Get asked to, "Hey, can you join us on stage to drop us some synth sounds?"
So tell me, how do you use a VST live? 

I wasn't motivated at all yesterday, tired. What I learned about myself was that some times I hit a key that I recognized and play the first few notes of that song that popped up in my head. Monophonic one hand play, but still. Haven't done that before.


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## Bee_Abney (Aug 9, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Yup, that's a flaw that I was built with. What if I learn how to use it enough to be confident using it amongst others. (Just an example) Get asked to, "Hey, can you join us on stage to drop us some synth sounds?"
> So tell me, how do you use a VST live?
> 
> I wasn't motivated at all yesterday, tired. What I learned about myself was that some times I hit a key that I recognized and play the first few notes of that song that popped up in my head. Monophonic one hand play, but still. Haven't done that before.


You use a vst on stage as you would elsewhere, with a midi keyboard, audio interface and computer, just going from there into the PA system. People doing this for a big concert typically have a second computer set up as a redundancy. It is very common these days. It gives you instant recall of presets across multiple instruments, and can even be set up to give you specific options for each song.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Aug 9, 2022)

I bought a Minimoog when they first hit stores. I have zero nostalgia for it. There were no presets. You had to change the knobs if you wanted a different sound. The oscillators didn't stay in tune. It didn't have MIDI, which wasn't a thing yet. The thing came with a little manual that had illustrations of the positions of the knobs that would get you various sounds. All I could do with my limited knowledge was twiddle around and tweak it. 

It sounded great, but for me it wasn't practical. I wasn't Rick Wakeman who could have a bunch of them on the stage so he'd have access to different sounds at one time. Eventually I got a DX7 and an M1, that held their patches and I could control through MIDI with my computer--and I sold it. I'm a New Yorker--I didn't have a lot of space for hardware sitting around.

So I think the soft synths of today are the golden age. They're way better. None of the synths in something like Arturia's Collection or anything like that are modeled precisely--they all add stuff that wasn't on the original machines so they can keep up with what is necessary for a synth today. So today's Minimoog clones have presets, and MIDI, etc. You can control how much you want to detune the oscillators, which I sure as hell couldn't. I never knew what I'd get.

If I was trying to think of the absolute, absolute worst "synth" to learn synthesis on, it would be something like Falcon or HALion or Synthmaster or even the way Pigments is developing. These things allow you to layer multiple kinds of synthesis, including subtractive, FM (talk about hard to learn!), Wavetable, Additive, and so on. Pigments started out as a relatively simple synth, but they have added features. 

The question about all this is: do you want to compose music or do you want to be a sound designer? Because time is not unlimited. I have music I hear in my head every day and would like to sit and put it down--there just is not enough time.

I know a thing or two about programming, but I don't do it. I use presets. I tweak them. I got music to make and have a million quadrillion presets made by people infinitely better than me--why reinvent the wheel? Let's go!

To use Falcon in the most minimal, minimal way, you need to be somebody with understanding of programming all the kinds of synthesis it offers, plus sampling. It is about layering, so you need to know all the different kinds of things you can layer. In other words, you have to know more than 95% of other musicians. (Really? They understand FM?) Or... you can select a preset and away you go! (But then there is the thing that it is single-core and it crashes with too much layering, but you can fix that with Unify.) 

When I first bought my Minimoog, I had no choice. That was the only way I could afford to get synth sounds to record into my reel-to-reel. Now I have much better options.

So yes, learn the basics of subtractive synthesis. Have an understanding of how synths work. You can't work with sampled instruments if you don't understand envelopes. But as far as I'm concerned, programming is a way to get sidetracked from composing. I'd rather take time learning about music than learning about programming. And I'd rather be composing.

Just to put up a contrarian idea for learning programming, I suggest programming on an iPad. There are a lot of wonderful synths you can get for a few bucks. When I was laying around in bed or on a plane, I found it fun to make patches. I'm not making music then. You could start with something simple like Sunrizer (two oscillators, a filter, and an LFO) and then try different kinds of synthesis one at a time. Get Nave and fool around with Wavetable. There are FM synths. Learn these things one by one and then Falcon will be relatively easy. You just put your knowledge together. The iPad even has drum programs like Patterning that will prepare you for some of the offbeat rhythmic algorithms. that Falcon uses.


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## Thlian (Aug 9, 2022)

Reid Rosefelt said:


> I bought a Minimoog when they first hit stores. I have zero nostalgia for it. There were no presets. You had to change the knobs if you wanted a different sound. The oscillators didn't stay in tune. It didn't have MIDI, which wasn't a thing yet. The thing came with a little manual that had illustrations of the positions of the knobs that would get you various sounds. All I could do with my limited knowledge was twiddle around and tweak it.
> 
> It sounded great, but for me it wasn't practical. I wasn't Rick Wakeman who could have a bunch of them on the stage so he'd have access to different sounds at one time. Eventually I got a DX7 and an M1, that held their patches and I could control through MIDI with my computer--and I sold it. I'm a New Yorker--I didn't have a lot of space for hardware sitting around.
> 
> ...


You have way to many good points 😊
I want to learn composing, but I look at the big boys out the. Excuse me to use Zimmer as an example, he programs, samples and compose - did. Guess his the mastermind behind his work, but he has so many skilled people around him that he can focuse on one thing. The ideas.

What I dont or won't realise is that I'm beginning now and I'm old enough to have started learning this in the late 80's. I for sure should FO use on one thing, learning how to play and make music. I think becomming that guy who can do it all, will mean I can learn the essentials, but never truly embrace one thing I want to be good at and that's not playing and program a synthesizer. But I need the basics, how the shit works, because as you said. Without understanding what OSC, filters and ADRS, I won't understand using the presets which they are build upon.

Me talking about getting a synth is just synthmance. I'm a sucker for having cool stuff not many other have. But hey, I don't know any who has as much virtual instruments as I have. Some days I think I regret spending money on them, the next I think I would regret not getting them. So off to make them to good use 😊


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## liquidlino (Aug 9, 2022)

Of course, if you do take the time to learn Falcon, it's incredibly powerful. This is a patch I made tonight for fun, didn't take long. Took the single note Ahs from a sample pack (Black Octopus Sound - Vocal Atmospheres by Holly Drummond that I picked up in a sale) laid them out in Falcon as Sample oscillators, and granular oscillators. Got the loop points setup nice and clean. Some delay and sparkverb, bit of EQ to take out resonance, and that's it. The "cluster chatter" at the start is ramping the granular detune up to 100% and back down again.

View attachment 2022-08-09 Vocal Ahhs PD Demo.2022-08-09 23_50_41.mp3


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## Thlian (Aug 10, 2022)

I kinda starting to get the idea. Read about and hard demos from Spectrum made by wave alchemy. Why wouldn't one use the best of both worlds. A package that someone else has put lots and lots of work into to make a plugin that contains 15 synths, 10.000 presets and 18 months to create. If I don't find the sound I want in a place like that, I'll probably never find it.

Not to talk about Bassynth (which is now on my wish list), waiting for a sale 😉


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