# My situation. Any Advice or Pointers?



## Erick - BVA (Apr 24, 2018)

I've been relunctant to share my story for a while, because, well, I don't really like sharing too much in public. My goal here is really to get advice. So I need to provide context. 

Due to a family medical situation 3 years ago, I had to quit my full time job at Booking.com for Russian Speaking customer service. Unfortunately this situation may never get better. 
2 years before that I started dabbling in selling music online at various RF sites (Pond5, Audiojungle, etc). My first sale took a few months. But ever since then it's been growing steadily. My earnings on RF sites now compared to when I first started working full time at home are about double, and in some cases triple (it varies). And there are lots of good "indicators" in many areas. I've also been developing good working relationships with developers and fellow composers/sound designers. 

However, the music market is so volitile, and I feel like I need to do the best I can to capitalize on things as quickly as possible. I know people say it's a marathon, not a sprint. But I feel kind of like it's a sprinting marathon. 
I'm working on several sample libraries right now, and some of them are not yet worked on (just in the "ideas" phase), and I get paranoid that someone is going to have the same idea and get it released before me haha. It's crazy, I know. Probably the wrong attitude. I'm usally a pretty calm and collected person. It's such a competitive market though, and I can't really afford to hire anyone to help me.

So here is the rundown of the percentage of my earnings from the various avenues:

Royalty Free Sites: 60% (Pond5 being the bulk of that)
Sample Libraries: 30% 
Commissioned Work: 5%
Royalties (BMI): 2%
Misc.: 3%

I have not looked into Fiver (doing cheap work) --some people have mentioned that. 
I have not really contacted any local studios or agencies who may be able to refer me to other people for work (or refer them to me I guess) --one of my relatives suggested that. 

I have not been too thrilled about the idea of asking for money --through paypalme or patreon. I guess I just don't like the idea of doing that, I can't help but feel like I'm asking for charity. Anyone have a better perspective on it? I realize that it's just people willingly giving you money because they love what you do. I don't know. 

Other that that, I'm really not sure where else I can develop an income stream. 
I've been playing guitar on and off for 22+ years (I'm 34), but I am so autodidactic that I'm not sure I would make a great teacher. But I'm sure I'd have a unique perspective on it 
I'm a decent drummer.
I'm a decent singer.
I'm not great at mixing and mastering (good enough for myself, but not to be hired). 
I can't read music quickly. I can't write notation proficiently. I have all sorts of crazy orchestration ideas in my head, but I can't bring them to fruition.
I can fake being able to play pretty much any instrument which doesn't require you to blow into it.

I have a Bachelor's in Psychology. I'm not sure if it'd be worth it to persue college more in order to get an additional degree (one leaning more on music?). I regret going to college the first time, so I'm reluctant to do it again. But this time I know for sure I'd be doing what I love. I would be happy if I became a professor and taught online courses somehow. 
I do know Russian, but it's been 3 years since I've spoken it on a regular basis, so sadly it's waning. I really need to practice writing, reading, and speaking more :( 

I guess I should finally tell you my own personal goal. My goal is to get enough of a passive income that I can devote 75% of my work time writing songs and releasing albums. I think this is actually my strongest quality, but it's one which requires the most effort and time, so I can't just drop all of the other stuff just on the hopes that I can break into the "scene."
And I hate micromanaging and cutting up "time for this" and "time for that." I get immersed in something and I have to complete it. Maybe a couple things. But more than that I just can't do it.

I don't know. I'm open to any suggestions or ideas. Even if you say "this isn't the right place to post this...talk to your local job specialist." 

PS- I'm not willing to sell my body for money. I draw the line there.


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## JohnG (Apr 24, 2018)

I think you have plenty of company, with many here and elsewhere facing the same questions you are asking.

The music business will always be volatile. Tastes can shift quickly, then inexplicably get stuck in one place for a long time. I'm sure we all can think of a type of music that we think is unappealing and yet, surprisingly, persists in popularity.

I don't know you beyond this post so I don't mean to be overly presumptuous. But I will anyway.

1. Honour your commitments to others -- if you have a spouse or children, the greatest importance should be placed on that responsibility. It's boring to "do one's duty," but the importance and, certainly, satisfaction of making connections with others that are meaningful and mutually dependent cannot be exaggerated. Nothing is more important, in my opinion, not only for your sense of propriety and honour, but for your happiness.

2. Be good to yourself -- don't allow yourself to be measured by money. _Especially,_ don't do that _to yourself_. Don't allow yourself to be rated or labeled by the worst decision(s) you ever made. Even criminals deserve a second chance if they are contrite; don't treat yourself worse than you would treat one of them.

3. Be an entire person -- you are not "only" a composer. You are a son, a brother, maybe a father, a nephew, a friend. You have feelings, appreciate (or hate) art / poetry / architecture / sculpture -- you are many things. Nurture as many of them as you can. Laugh with yourself, go out with friends, travel, go to a museum or hiking or whatever makes you smile. It will help with everything else.

4. Everyone needs money -- Even the Dalai Lama, a monk, acknowledges that money is necessary for happiness. I don't know how many people on this site make a living at music, but my guess is that it's a limited, lucky few. Whether or not that's true, it doesn't invalidate the work of those who are hobbyists or who only sell a track once in a while. 

There is nothing inspiring or romantic about abject poverty. Most people will need to develop some other way of supplementing their income until they get momentum. And later too, after that momentum ebbs or fades away. Over time, even if one has had a good run, jobs may wither away (or even stop abruptly) so it's good if you have BMI or ASCAP royalties, or some kind of income from investment -- a steady source of money for old age.

So, treat yourself right. Work like a dog and keep your music up as much as you can sustain, but, especially if you have children or others dependent on you, attend to that. I do love writing music and it's very satisfying, but in the long run I think it's more important to be a good person than a good composer.

Sorry to preach.


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## dohm (Apr 24, 2018)

JohnG - I just wanted to comment that your reply was really insightful. I do not post or comment much on the forum. Have been reading it for years, but always feel too busy to comment. Anyway, thanks for those words. They provide a valuable reminder to what is most important.


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## RiffWraith (Apr 24, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> I've been playing guitar on and off for 22+ years (I'm 34), but I am so autodidactic that I'm not sure I would make a great teacher. But I'm sure I'd have a unique perspective on it
> I'm a decent drummer.
> I'm a decent singer.
> I'm not great at mixing and mastering (good enough for myself, but not to be hired).
> ...



Jack of all trades, master of none? Sounds like you need focus. Seems to me what your problem now is, you are not sure what direction to go. You are not sure what you really want to do, and what will make you a decent living. Neither of those can be answered for you by someone else. You need to decide what it is you really want to do, and then try _somehow_, to figure out if you can make a living from it.

Yes, the music market is volitile, but if you are trying to capitalize on things as quickly as possible, you are more than likely in for a major disappointment. These things do not come quick, so yes - patience is key.

Can you get a day job for the next few years, while you hone one of your other talents, and wait for money to start coming in there? Or does your family medical situation prevent you from doing that? B/c if it's yes it does, that's going to be real tough. Get a job and hire a PT nurse, or home caregiver maybe? Not too sure what to say there; never been there myself.

Point is, there is no easy and quick way to earning a decent living in this business. It is HIGHLY competitive, and you have no friggin' clue how many other musicians and composers and songwriters there are out there who are also looking to earn a living. You probably don't even want to know.

Stay focused, and concentrate on one thing, as opposed to many things. You will have a better shot that way.

Good luck.


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## JohnG (Apr 24, 2018)

Good point about the oxygen mask, Doug. Misery may love company but nobody loves the company of the miserable.


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## jmauz (Apr 24, 2018)

I've been working in the music industry for 25 years, the first 15 as a drummer and the last 10 as a drummer and a composer/producer/arranger/SFX/mixer/whatever you need. In my experience, being multi-dimensional (i.e. jack of many trades) is a VERY GOOD THING. Why? Well, I caught the 'tail end' of the session scene but that dried up so I had to take on more live/touring work. This paid OK but was a lot more taxing physically (and mentally). When I coupled my drumming career with all the production work my income rose significantly AND I was able to be more choosy about what performance work to take. Moreover, having a multidimensional career keeps things fresh, exciting, inspired and fulfilling. I can't imagine only being a drummer these days..both financially and musically.

I guess my advice is to develop your multitude of talents/skills and create a vision of how you will earn an income utilizing them. Almost all musicians I know here in L.A. have a foot in many different areas of the industry. It's always been a hustle but now it's a hustle that involves many different disciplines. 

I hope this helps.... Good luck!


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## dflood (Apr 24, 2018)

Erick,

The music ‘business’ is problematic because, unlike septic tank drivers, Walmart cashiers, and just about every other job, musicians don’t have the sense to quit when it becomes uneconomic. We will often work for nothing just because we love it. This means that the usual rules of supply and demand do not apply. There will always be way too many musicians. Also, while talent is an assumed requirement, it’s no predictor of success. Luck and perseverance are at least as important. But I’m sure you already know all of this.

While I don’t have any advice on cracking the music business, this great new post from Tim Urban at Wait But Why may help you to sort through the conflicting issues that beset everyone at a career crossroads. It’s very entertaining and well worth the read: https://waitbutwhy.com/2018/04/picking-career.html

I hope this helps. Best of luck with your career!


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 25, 2018)

Wow guys, Thanks for all of the wise advice. It is clear that it was not a mistake to post this 
I apologize for not responding to everyone individually.
I am really appreciative of all of the advice. It is definitely helping me to reorient myself.
I think there can be a danger in doing lots of things and not having focus if we have no overall plan or goal. However, there are 2 things which I am very passionate about --composition and sound design. Those two things alone could consume me if I let them. Actually, I think more accurately, composition is my love, and sound design is my passion. When I was only composing I never really got burnt out. Maybe I need to meditate and do relaxation to help me just stop being so worried. I'm worried because I want to be able to provide for my family, not because I want recognition or to be well known or something.

I will continue to read through and digest all of your advice. Thank you so much!


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 25, 2018)

dflood said:


> Erick,
> 
> The music ‘business’ is problematic because, unlike septic tank drivers, Walmart cashiers, and just about every other job, musicians don’t have the sense to quit when it becomes uneconomic. We will often work for nothing just because we love it. This means that the usual rules of supply and demand do not apply. There will always be way too many musicians. Also, while talent is an assumed requirement, it’s no predictor of success. Luck and perseverance are at least as important. But I’m sure you already know all of this.
> 
> ...


Be careful with the Wait But Why blog...it's a goldmine of info and great reading. You'll get lost for hours.


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 25, 2018)

Get a job.


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## Replicant (Apr 25, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> Get a job.



This is the real advice.

I hate to be a Debbie downer here, and I don't mean to hurt butts when I say this stuff, but at age 34 if you're not making a living at music or on a very strong track toward doing so, it's extraordinarily unlikely you ever will. We had this discussion 'round here before, and statistically, most composers would have 'Made it" by the age you are now.

and it's very unlikely that you will at _24_. You're not going to get much in the way of realistic advice on these forums because so many people here are either romantic in their thinking, or have been in the music elite for so long that they have no idea what it is like for the average person.

You say your goal is to sell albums. Nobody buys albums; even the biggest bands out there can't rely on it.



Sibelius19 said:


> I have a Bachelor's in Psychology. I'm not sure if it'd be worth it to persue college more in order to get an additional degree (one leaning more on music?). I regret going to college the first time, so I'm reluctant to do it again.



To be very frank: That is what happens studying something useless like Psychology.

Secondly, once you're 25, never mind 34, that is when many things in your life lock out or at least becomes tremendously difficult to "turn the ship around". Again, the dreamers will tell you "It's never too late" but that's why they're still dreamers.

Going back to school for another degree at 25 would leave you 30 years old, maybe older. You'd enter another saturated job market (or something useless like music), debt, and be too old to gain an entry level position. Starting a new career at that age is _extremely_ difficult and in a dwindling job market. At 34, you'd be almost 40 and looking to retire in fewer than 30 years. Not an attractive prospective for an employer looking to hire a rookie.

*In my opinion*, this is what you should do:

Find a job, music-related or maybe not, that you enjoy doing and are good at. Do it full-time and while you're doing it, keep composing, attend some conferences to network here and there, etc. Don't give up on the dream, but accept it's unlikelihood. Otherwise, you'll wind up old, with no real legacy and just be remembered as "the what-if guy".

Because so much of this comes down to luck (it really does), whether you're working 40 hours a week or 0 doesn't really increase your odds of success. Write the best music you can, get out there and make friends with indie film makers and such, maybe play some gigs or join a band, and if it happens and the dream comes true (I hope it does)...then it happens!


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## Garry (Apr 25, 2018)

Christian Henson's vlog on this was incredibly insightful: realistically (and helpfully) pessimistic, but with specific and concrete steps to fully evaluate your situation, and see how much you can stack the odds in your favour. Incredibly useful advice for ANY second career, not just in music. This is by far my favourite of his, to date, 100 vlogs.

Here if you haven't seen it already:


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 25, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> I guess I should finally tell you my own personal goal. My goal is to get enough of a passive income that I can devote 75% of my work time writing songs and releasing albums.


That's probably the rub right there.
From what you're saying, you're already establishing an income from music, so you're already on your way. That puts you ahead of the majority of composers, no?

We'd all like to write albums. Mine would be endless (bad) Star Wars scores to scenes that "didn't make it into the movie." But I'm realistic enough to know that no-one wants that. 
The reality is that most of us can't actually write _*what we want*_ if we want to earn money. If we want to pay the bills, we need to write *_what other people want and can use.*_ That's the key difference and something I still think a lot of producers and composers don't quite get.

As for the age thing, the rock star or film composer avenue is probably closed for you. (And me.) But if you want to write music for a living - provided you're not picky - there are always opportunities. I started at 30. Now 39, I earn a full time living from music. It's hard work and I'll forever be without a Ferrari, but at least I'm not working in the local chicken factory.
Good luck!


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## Rohann (Apr 25, 2018)

JohnG said:


> I think you have plenty of company, with many here and elsewhere facing the same questions you are asking.
> 
> The music business will always be volatile. Tastes can shift quickly, then inexplicably get stuck in one place for a long time. I'm sure we all can think of a type of music that we think is unappealing and yet, surprisingly, persists in popularity.
> 
> ...



Since when is sharing wisdom "preaching"? Fantastic advice!



Sibelius19 said:


> I have a Bachelor's in Psychology. I'm not sure if it'd be worth it to persue college more in order to get an additional degree (one leaning more on music?). I regret going to college the first time, so I'm reluctant to do it again. But this time I know for sure I'd be doing what I love. I would be happy if I became a professor and taught online courses somehow.


_Most _university majors have to be looked at now as:
a) simply investing in oneself (psychology, for instance, can be fantastically applied to just about anything, but nothing in particular that will guarantee you a career)
b) a stepping stone towards further education
c) a general application to the job market, _possibly _related to the job (a degree looks good on a resume)

It doesn't matter if the major is physics, or chemistry, or sociology, unless you want to tutor, you more or less have to expect to continue to do further schooling. Degrees are rather common now, and most degrees simply demonstrate you're able to be self-motivated, you're within a decent IQ range, and you can complete something you've committed to. Of course you can get creative -- psychology will be a good stepping stone into a marketing job (possibly), or maybe HR. Depends where you live.
You're never too old to get a PhD, but expect it to consume your life.
In any case, I've been persuaded by most people not to bother with music as a degree, unless you're interested in teaching it eventually.

That said, career changes, while difficult, are surprisingly and increasingly common now. It's not "pick your career" out of highschool anymore. _Major _career shifts are difficult, but it's perfectly possible, and again, increasingly common, to hop around within a particular scope of jobs.

For the record, I'm interested in creating albums as well -- sure, they aren't an overly reliable source of income, even for big bands. But it's important to understand the difference between artistic and financial goals (I'm personally separating the two).


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 26, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> Get a job.



I appreciate your honesty, but I think you may have missed some items in my original post.
I had a full time job. I've actually worked quite a lot of "normal" jobs for most of my life --including being a veterinary technican for 10 years.

For the safety of my family I have to be home. If you want to know more detail just PM me. It is a family medical situation. I have worked full time with this problem going on, and the reason I quit the full time job is because things were dangerous and unsafe. The most important thing for me is my family's safety.
That being said, over the past 6 months I have made virtually the same amount that I've made at the full time Job I quit 3 years ago (and that job was well over miniman wage in Michigan, USA).
So with all do respect, I do have a job. I'm not seeking advice for people to "jolt me back into reality."
I've had friends and family scoff at the idea of me even attempting to make money in this way, and thankfully they've changed their tune and are completely supportive of me now --even my Father in law.

I was asking about maybe avenues which I have yet to explore, things maybe I haven't thought of. I gave context so everyone could better understand my situation (so as to give more pertinent advice). So in some ways saying just "get a job" could be construed as being a little insulting given the context which I laid out. But I'm assuming you just missed something, so I will assume you were not trying to be insulting (maybe just funny?).

There has already been a lot of great advice and I have decided that I will refocus my efforts on writing music and sound design, and not try to do too much. It is very difficult to expand and go into different directions given my situation. So for now I need to keep things simple and be as focused as I can. Time management has always been a struggle for me, so I need to work on that for sure.

There is every indicator that my "job" will continue to bring in more income, and if I work hard, will get better. So no offense to anyone who says "you can't make money in music" or "get a real job." I am already making money. I just want to be making more money. I want to be able to save money for the future.
If I could work a "real" job outside of the home to acheive this I would (plus contunie the music as a "side" job). It's just not possible at this time.
Anyway, I know what I need to do. Thank you everyone for the advice, I really appreciate it.


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 26, 2018)

Replicant said:


> This is the real advice.
> I hate to be a Debbie downer here, and I don't mean to hurt butts when I say this stuff, but at age 34 if you're not making a living at music or on a very strong track toward doing so, it's extraordinarily unlikely you ever will. We had this discussion 'round here before, and statistically, most composers would have 'Made it" by the age you are now.
> 
> and it's very unlikely that you will at _24_. You're not going to get much in the way of realistic advice on these forums because so many people here are either romantic in their thinking, or have been in the music elite for so long that they have no idea what it is like for the average person.
> ...



I actually read somewhere that even in hollywood, if you haven't made it as a composer by age 40, then it's much more difficult --they implied that it was due to age discrimination. That's not even that bad considering the kind of business it is.
I'd rather be in control of my destiny than let statistics rule my behavior.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 26, 2018)

Ignore anyone who says it's "too late", or you're "too old", it's all white noise. They are typically jaded and cynical because they themselves gave up at some point and accepted their humdrum reality.

Just continue whatever it is you're doing, and continue pursuing musical endeavors as time permits. Eventually things will fall into place if you are persistent.


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 26, 2018)

I have a feeling this thread is going to go sideways very quickly. I can see that the OP is in defensive mode already.


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## JohnG (Apr 26, 2018)

I think Christian's advice is accurate and honest.

It's possible to get a later start but he's right that, if you're going to do that, you need to have at least some assets. His list includes: good health, strong playing ability, understand orchestration, know how to sequence, know how to create sound design or great-sounding patches. 

I would listen to his video maybe twice to get all of it. He's got it.


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 26, 2018)

JohnG said:


> I think Christian's advice is accurate and honest.
> 
> It's possible to get a later start but he's right that, if you're going to do that, you need to have at least some assets. His list includes: good health, strong playing ability, understand orchestration, know how to sequence, know how to create sound design or great-sounding patches.
> 
> I would listen to his video maybe twice to get all of it. He's got it.


The video is perfect. I've been watching it.


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 26, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> I have a feeling this thread is going to go sideways very quickly. I can see that the OP is in defensive mode already.


I think you may be projecting. 
Again, did you read my post? 
I never said I wasn't making a living. Each year my income from music has been increasing by several % points. 
I didn't emphasis this because I didn't think it was important, but when you seem to miss the point of my post and say "get a job" then I have to qualify the context a little more by telling you that I already have what is a essentially a job --yes, not a "normal" job. But as I said, I am making about the same amount that I made when I quit my full time job 3 years ago. I still didn't make enough when I had that job, so I am still not making enough now. When you have 50k in student loans for a useless degree, and have thousands in medical bills, then it's hard to make enough ever. 
So I need to make more. I appreciate what I am making though. I'm not ungrateful.


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## Rohann (Apr 26, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> I have a feeling this thread is going to go sideways very quickly. I can see that the OP is in defensive mode already.


To be fair, you gave him a one-liner which seemed to indicate not really taking his original post seriously. I don't really read much defensiveness, personally. Respectfully, witty lines tend to come off as a bit dismissive and are more likely to derail a thread.



JohnG said:


> I think Christian's advice is accurate and honest.
> 
> It's possible to get a later start but he's right that, if you're going to do that, you need to have at least some assets. His list includes: good health, strong playing ability, understand orchestration, know how to sequence, know how to create sound design or great-sounding patches.
> 
> I would listen to his video maybe twice to get all of it. He's got it.


I think Christian's video has been the most realistic video I've seen, from someone who's currently "doing it" with the added "life stuff" of family, a home away from the big city, etc. A lot of other takes seem to end up a bit far on the side of pessimism or optimism.


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 26, 2018)

Rohann said:


> To be fair, you gave him a one-liner which seemed to indicate not really taking his original post seriously. I don't really read much defensiveness, personally. Respectfully, witty lines tend to come off as a bit dismissive and are more likely to derail a thread.



So what are you going to do to help the OP?


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## Rohann (Apr 26, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> So what are you going to do to help the OP?


Not be dismissive of his post, for starters .


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 26, 2018)

Well, for starters we can have some compassion. Erick obviously trusts this forum enough to ask for some personal (maybe sensitive) advice. Just offer what advice you can , if any, even if it's some words of encouragement. This world is shitty enough as it is.


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 26, 2018)

I think the OP is looking for ways to make more money, not compassion. Any real advice?

I see that the OP has a lot of music at Pond5 for $20 a song. Raise those prices to at least $50 a song. 

Next, delete all songs that have not sold at least one license within two years of uploading. 

Next, create more of the songs that people are buying. I see that this cue is selling for you:




Next, build your YouTube channel!


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 26, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> I think the OP is looking for ways to make more money, not compassion. Any real advice?


Appreciate your concern. I think I've made up my mind about what to do though. 
Thanks guys!
How do I lock a post?


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 26, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> I think the OP is looking for ways to make more money, not compassion. Any real advice?
> 
> I see that the OP has a lot of music at Pond5 for $20 a song. Raise those prices to at least $50 a song.
> 
> ...



You're right. Good suggestions. I have plans along the lines of what you're saying --I really want to delete a lot of my old tracks, not just because they may not be selling, but because it's when I first started and my quality has been getting better (despite that video implying that I don't care about quality). I think I would say I care more about mood and emotion, and try to have it be as high quality as possible within that framework


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 26, 2018)

Yeah, YT channel has been growing slowly but I'll have to get at least 1k subs before I can even consider getting revenue. YT no longer pays you unless you have 1k subs and at least 4k hours of watch time per year (or a 12 month span) --which stinks because I was really close to the $50 payout threshhold haha.


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## fixxer49 (Apr 26, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Well, for starters we can have some compassion. Erick obviously trusts this forum enough to ask for some personal (maybe sensitive) advice. Just offer what advice you can , if any, even if it's some words of encouragement. This world is shitty enough as it is.


This is a _terrifyingly_ competitive biz. It’s a long, shit-filled plastic tunnel where good men die like dogs. There’s also a bad side.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 26, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> I think the OP is looking for ways to make more money, not compassion. Any real advice?
> 
> I see that the OP has a lot of music at Pond5 for $20 a song. Raise those prices to at least $50 a song.



Cool suggestion...I actually experienced this myself. When I raised prices, they were licensed more often.


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## Replicant (Apr 26, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> I actually read somewhere that even in hollywood, if you haven't made it as a composer by age 40, then it's much more difficult --they implied that it was due to age discrimination. That's not even that bad considering the kind of business it is.
> I'd rather be in control of my destiny than let statistics rule my behavior.



I personally don't believe we are in control of our destiny; that's why it's called destiny but that's a debate for another time.

I think there are a lot of factors, and yeah, a lot of it probably does have to do with age discrimination and lots of the "appearance" variety.

A 40-something year old who looks like this and could pass for being is his early 30s at worst probably could probably pull off becoming a film composer at that age, assuming he has the skill as well.







The average 40-something man doesn't though, and will have it a lot harder unless he has serious connections and probably reputation from the music industry in general, though.

Like I said. I'm not saying it's impossible or that you shouldn't aspire to it, I'm saying that it's wise not to put much faith in it.


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## Mattzart (Apr 26, 2018)

Don't have any advice, but I just wanted you wish you luck and hope you achieve all that you dream, my friend. Im sorry to hear about your family medical situation, I've been there before in my life and it's not easy to juggle with other obligations.

Wishing you and your family well.


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## SillyMidOn (Apr 27, 2018)

There have been loads of good suggestions. Maybe look beyond Pond5/so called "royalty free music" and approach some more established non-royalty free libraries?


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## Carles (Apr 27, 2018)

I cannot give any advice to you (otherwise, I wish I could be already making a living from music so it seems that you can advice me instead) but I'd like to chime in regarding concepts like "find a real job" and "dreamers" in my own experience.

I'm a dreamer, and I will always be, because dreams are the engine that allow me to move on.

I was born in a place (a town in Valencia, Spain) where most job expectations were working for someone owning a farm or someone owning a building company. No many chances for someone whose passions are art and music.
Within that context I was lucky enough to find a job as a graphic designer (mostly of that time the old school-like, with no computers) and worked on that for about 13 years as well as playing in a rock band and an orchestra mostly as a hobby.

By then it was the time when no any animation movie was done yet (Toy Story by Pixar was released much after that) and either the first use of CGI (I think it was the film Abyss the first one using "realistic" CGI) but a friend of mine (it was quite early times for having personal computers in Spain but I got one as it was my working tool) came to my home with a suitcase plenty of pirated floppy disks and shown me the images he did create with a software called "3D Studio") and these shocked me (nothing really special nowadays but was looking impressive by then) so that activated on me one of my biggest dreams ever. I just wanted to learn more and to be able to create images like that.
He took some floppies from the suitcase and did install that software in my 486 with 4Mb RAM and I did start doing some tests right away.
It took a couple of years until I got a better computer and discovered a software that allow me to create not only "realistic" tests but something where I could create some form of art.

I did enter some online contests and won some. Meanwhile one of my brothers used to make fun of me saying that wining those contests was worthless because I was not making money with that (usually the pay with software or just honors) telling that I was just a dreamer (in the most negative aspect of the term). Later on, my work did get published in specialized books and magazines and featured in CG forums/galleries and he still laughing on my my achievements "because it doesn't give you any money".

No much after, the developer for who I was beta-testing introduced me to someone working at Sony Pictures as they were producing "Spiderman 2" and were some CG artist positions available. Currently this market is also very saturated (CG artists) but that was a very different time by then, and got an email from recruiting to schedule a phone interview in no time, but... I had to write to the recruiter something like "as you can read my written English is really poor but my oral one is close to null. I cannot understand spoken English and I cannot pronounce it at all". Funnily enough I had my interview (by a German supervisor who lived for some years in Mexico) in Spanish!! (no way that something like this would happen nowadays!)
Didn't get the job as English was a must obviously, but it was clear that my CG work could be good enough as per having a job in one of the big studios. Just the real thing is that I didn't get the job and the only things I could count with were awards and honors and you cannot pay bills with those.

I almost gave up by then thinking that my brother was right. I was just a dreamer while the reality hits in my face and have to keep my job as a pre-press designer in my small town for the rest of my life.
Did stop CG for about a year but at some point did back to it and kept working on my personal CG art for a while.

One day, when I was 33 y.o. (too late?) a guy did contact me offering a supervising job on a upcoming CG movie in Italy (unfortunately the project was cancelled after 3 years of development so there are no credits for it, but we did big achievements in that place) and suddenly I saw myself in a foreign country, doing the most beautiful work ever, and with an amazing salary. My brother never again said that I was a "dreamer" since the dream did come true and my salary was 5 times bigger than his own earnings (I think these 3 years were the most happy time in my life).
Later on, after the project was cancelled I kept working in the industry (feature animation in Belgium/Luxembourg) and finally, since I did improve my English a little when working in those studios in Europe (usually both native and English is used as there is always non native part of the crew) did decide to apply to some major studios (even got an interview with Pixar!) and one of those studios hired me. I've spent the last 6 years working at one of the major VFX studios in Earth, Weta Digital.
Here a list of the movies I've worked on
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3896547/
No bad for "a dreamer", right? 

Too late? (for those who say that if won't make it in your 20's you never will make it) well, I was 41 y.o. when did get my position at Weta. I don't know if that's too late but granted that I made it.

Once in there, no matter how amazing it looks like, I saw that if you work in a big studios you have to give up many things (mostly family) and you have to deal with strong politics and other things I'm not comfortable with. Despite a 6 figure salary and honors, at some point I realized that I was not happy working on a major studios and music did become my next "dream" ( I did study some solfege, piano and percussion when teenager and a few years ago tried to compose some orchestral music with terrible results. Then did start trying to understand how a symphonic orchestra works by attempting classical renditions with virtual instruments and at some point my own compositions did become to sound more coherent).
Music became my primary focus, and I had always my headphones on while painting textures at Weta, listening classical music (or checking my own compositions) and counting the minutes until I could reach home, have some dinner, a quick shower and turn my DAW on. Those moments till late night made me really happy.

At some point, in December 2016 I left Weta (for a sum of reasons but being the ability to have more time for writing music possibly about 80% of it) and I'm since then writing music full time.
I'm 48 now and still keep dreaming.
I just want to try to be happy no matter the required way to achieve that and a 6 figure salary and honors probed not to be the path for me.
These latest months I've been unable to write music because I got sick and it's been really sad time for me. It seems that it's getting better now (otherwise a surgery will do) and I'm writing again a few hours a day and feeling much better emotionally.
I don't know if at the end I'll make it or not (earn a life via writing music I mean, at the moment I'm financing the venture with my own savings) but undoubtedly I'm happy with what I'm doing, and I'm going to keep dreaming until my money will be all gone. If I have to back to the VFX/Animation industry then I will (I have a nice CV so it shouldn't be hard to make some money again), but meanwhile I'm more happy by dreaming than having "a real job". What can I say, that's how I am and I cannot change that.

Said that, pursuing a dream doesn't mean to expect that it will come with no reason, it implies hard work, effort, sacrifice, and more times than not lots of frustration (I had a good dose of that when pursuing a career as CG artist as well as currently pursuing a career as composer for libraries), but IMO it has no so much to do with your age but a lot with your willingness. If you want something then go for it passionately. If you won't ever try, then granted that it never will happen, obviously.

Best wishes and best luck with your dreams.


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 27, 2018)

Carles said:


> I cannot give any advice to you (otherwise, I wish I could be already making a living from music so it seems that you can advice me instead) but I'd like to chime in regarding concepts like "find a real job" and "dreamers" in my own experience.
> 
> I'm a dreamer, and I will always be, because dreams are the engine that allow me to move on.
> 
> ...



Wow, thank you for sharing your story.
I feel like if you want to go for something and you have in the back of your mind "it probably won't happen" it's much more difficult to acheive than it otherwise could be. So the irony is that if you start with that attitude, you have already set yourself up for failure. Self-fulfilling prophecies do happen. I am in it to succeed. But I do not measure success only on where I'm working, or how much I am making (to an extent). Even if our circumstances changed to a point where I could work outside of the home, I would still be "dreaming" and if I was working a "menial" job, I would still hate it. Music is in my veins. I know that sounds cliche, but I've daydreamed about music since I was 3 years old and have been writing music since I was 12. This has been building for a long time. It's not some whimsical fancy, passing phase or mid-life crisis. I'm also not one of those people who lacks any self-awareness. I know that I am talented, and I know what I am capable of (key word "capable"). As you've said, it requires a lot of hard work and dedication. It can't just happen --though as others have pointed out, luck can be a factor. But it's irrational to say that it's "all" luck or that hard work will not have anything to do with your success. I would suspect that your chances of being lucky improve the harder your work and the more you strive to acheive a goal --because you will do things that will put you in a better position to be a recepient of good luck (maybe it goes back to that self-fulfilling prophecy thing). I am an optimist for sure, but with just a bit of realism. I'll never stop dreaming, but I will also never expect success as if I'm entitled to it, or as if my hard work will _necessarily_ lead to success.


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## GtrString (Apr 27, 2018)

Seems to me you are exploring the lower tiers of the music business with the stuff you are doing. You need to aim higher to sustain a living. Selling cues at Pond 5 won't cut it.

As you are 34, why not start a band, release some records, get some gigs, do a youtube channel. If you are good, you could bring some real marketing clout to syncs and scores, which is what could boost your fees.

As is now, you are the prey, not the hunter. You need to do something with your music that can position you better, to drive up the fees, imo.


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## SillyMidOn (Apr 27, 2018)

I don't think it's that much of a dreamer v realist debate. I think it's more of a case of awareness of what one is letting oneself in for. I've been a musician all my life, and I have know so many more people (some very talented) fail at this than succeed. I can see from what people write on this forum that very few indeed are full-time (even though some like to pretend to be ). There was a thread some time ago, where we dug out a poll what people make from composing, and the numbers were sobering, but did not surprise me at all (I can't find it now - it was a poll on musiclibraryreport, but the discussion was on here). 

One of the issues these days is really that an awful lot of people have a go, make some progress, have some minor or medium successes, maybe some tracks placed with a bigger library, a half-decent indie film, a good advert that earns well for a while, and so we have a lot of people earning "some" money from music. Ultimately a lot them never quite make it to full or part-time, and it is this strata of people in the industry which make it harder for those who are almost there, to get there fully, as that pool of work is divided up amongst a plethora of people. Now you're not in that situation, as you are already making money, but it is really important to build on what you are doing, look beyond Pond5, as this industry can chage quickly, companies can go under, be bought out and their catalogues slowly die etc, so be prepared, don't feel safe, build your house on a wide and firm foundation.


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 27, 2018)

GtrString said:


> Seems to me you are exploring the lower tiers of the music business with the stuff you are doing. You need to aim higher to sustain a living. Selling cues at Pond 5 won't cut it.
> 
> As you are 34, why not start a band, release some records, get some gigs, do a youtube channel. If you are good, you could bring some real marketing clout to syncs and scores, which is what could boost your fees.
> 
> As is now, you are the prey, not the hunter. You need to do something with your music that can position you better, to drive up the fees, imo.



I really appreciate your advice. Unfortunately gigging is not an option for me right now. I do want to write some songs and release them --but more of the Bandcamp front. I do want to do more Youtube videos featuring my music (not just "tutorials" and sound design videos as I have been doing). 
I have actually been doing consistently well on Pond5 for the last 2 years and they are making some changes soon which should (hopefully) help continue that success. I have also been contacted by customers on several occasions seeking desires to work in the future. So far they have been relative "unknowns," but who knows. 
I don't want to put all of my eggs in one basket it for sure, but it seems that for me the best thing to do is slowly branch out as I establish myself in each marketplace.
I think I also need to make my own website and try to do a little more marketing --something I have never done.


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 27, 2018)

SillyMidOn said:


> I don't think it's that much of a dreamer v realist debate. I think it's more of a case of awareness of what one is letting oneself in for. I've been a musician all my life, and I have know so many more people (some very talented) fail at this than succeed. I can see from what people write on this forum that very few indeed are full-time (even though some like to pretend to be ). There was a thread some time ago, where we dug out a poll what people make from composing, and the numbers were sobering, but did not surprise me at all (I can't find it now - it was a poll on musiclibraryreport, but the discussion was on here).
> 
> One of the issues these days is really that an awful lot of people have a go, make some progress, have some minor or medium successes, maybe some tracks placed with a bigger library, a half-decent indie film, a good advert that earns well for a while, and so we have a lot of people earning "some" money from music. Ultimately a lot them never quite make it to full or part-time, and it is this strata of people in the industry which make it harder for those who are almost there, to get there fully, as that pool of work is divided up amongst a plethora of people. Now you're not in that situation, as you are already making money, but it is really important to build on what you are doing, look beyond Pond5, as this industry can chage quickly, companies can go under, be bought out and their catalogues slowly die etc, so be prepared, don't feel safe, build your house on a wide and firm foundation.


Thank you. Very logical and reasoned perspective. I completely agree with you.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 27, 2018)

Replicant said:


> lots of the "appearance" variety.
> 
> A 40-something year old who looks like this and could pass for being is his early 30s at worst probably could probably pull off becoming a film composer at that age, assuming he has the skill as well.



I can see this if you are trying to become successful as performing artist in the mainstream, but the beauty of a film composer is that you are "behind the scenes". I have never many of my clients face-to-face, so I think age irrelevant for a composer. Unless you can back up that argument, your point is moot.


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## Paul T McGraw (Apr 27, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Misery may love company but nobody loves the company of the miserable.



I need to print this and post it on the wall over my desk! I am a regular offender of over sharing my miseries,


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 27, 2018)

So Erick:

Have you raised your prices on Pond5 yet? Have you started to go through the songs that are not selling and deleting them? Are you preparing to make some new YouTube videos? Have you contacted any music libraries to see if they are seeking new music? Have you created any new songs since the original post?


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## Replicant (Apr 27, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I can see this if you are trying to become successful as performing artist in the mainstream, but the beauty of a film composer is that you are "behind the scenes". I have never many of my clients face-to-face, so I think age irrelevant for a composer. Unless you can back up that argument, your point is moot.



This argument is easily backed up. Frankly, if one doubts it, I question they pay much attention to the world around them.

We went over this in a thread I created about a friend who was wanting to get into this film composing stuff at age 40, with no music theory knowledge, or anything. That thread was called something like "At what age does making it become unrealistic" or something and it basically made me the most hated man on the forums.

But it's the truth. It takes years of study and practice just to get to making professional-sounding music and even then it's a lifetime study afterward. It takes years of networking, working on crap indie projects, etc. and guess what? Your work will come from up-and-coming directors, game devs, tv producers, etc. who are probably in their 20s or 30s and anyone older than that will have been doing this for decades and will have a trusted circle of associates (composers included) in which you will never enter.

The odds are tremendously stacked against you the older you get. As I believe NoamL demonstrated in that same thread, just about every successful composer out there, became so by their early 30s. Tell me: How many guys do you know, who suddenly at age 50 wound up making a living from it and working on projects any of us would know, after starting at age 39? I can not think of even one example. So statistically speaking, if you're in your mid 30s, it's probably not gonna happen.

Lastly, if you think that looks don't matter because you're "behind the scenes" you are soooo sadly mistaken my friend. Especially in a job that requires business skills, going out there and meeting people to get work.

There are countless studies that show attractive people are more often hired for more desirable jobs, salesmen are more successful if their client finds them attractive as we're more easily persuaded by them, there is a correlation between looks and performance in general. Some studies that have followed up with good-looking highschool students have repeatedly found those students go on to be more successful. There is no shortage of evidence that attractive people do better than average and below average people, especially where business deals are concerned, and a youthful appearance is the cornerstone of this — doesn't matter if you're applying to be an actor or a telemarketer.

All of this absolutely applies to composers.

EDIT: Apparently my second link won't link directly to it...


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 27, 2018)

Replicant said:


> This argument is easily backed up. Frankly, if one doubts it, I question they pay much attention to the world around them.
> 
> We went over this in a thread I created about a friend who was wanting to get into this film composing stuff at age 40, with no music theory knowledge, or anything. That thread was called something like "At what age does making it become unrealistic" or something and it basically made me the most hated man on the forums.
> 
> ...



I agree that "ageism" or age discrimination is probably a thing. Funny thing is that Stravinsky didn't really get serious about composing until his late 20's and he composed music late into his life. Though we should be judged based on our individual merits. If some TV exec or music supervisor sees how old you are, then it may carry some kind of unwarranted bias --even if implicit. If you somehow escape giving out your age, and they see a picture of you first and you look younger than your age (younger than 30 or 40) then I should think it would actually work in your favor --you look younger, but you may be more wise


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## JohnG (Apr 27, 2018)

@Replicant You do make a persuasive argument, and anecdotally I agree 100% about "attractiveness," a component of which youth unquestionably supplies.

My own (also anecdotal) observation is that, these days, it takes a much longer time for new composers to become even passingly conversant with live players, since they often work their way up through electronic music only. Many otherwise fine composers can't orchestrate for a live ensemble much at all, if it's beyond a soloist or a few players.

Consequently, for people who've been lucky enough to get real experience with large ensembles, that can be a differentiator even if we're not 30. I've been hired by a couple of my biggest clients as someone who knows the electronic side, but who can also conduct / arrange / orchestrate with a full-sized, even giant-sized orchestra.

So, though a youthful appearance undoubtedly is great, lack of inexperience gets ugly very, very fast if you have an orchestra sitting there with unplayable parts. Any producer with experience will know that; it becomes obvious within minutes of starting a session whether there is a "grownup" running things -- or not.

Just throwing that into the mix. It doesn't apply to a lot of situations where there are few / no live players, but even there, a lot of experience is helpful.

Kind regards,

John


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## SillyMidOn (Apr 27, 2018)

JohnG said:


> @Replicant You do make a persuasive argument, and anecdotally I agree 100% about "attractiveness," a component of which youth unquestionably supplies.
> 
> My own (also anecdotal) observation is that, these days, it takes a much longer time for new composers to become even passingly conversant with live players, since they often work their way up through electronic music only. Many otherwise fine composers can't orchestrate for a live ensemble much at all, if it's beyond a soloist or a few players.
> 
> ...


Totally true. There are a fair few jobs I got because I could actually arrange/orchestrate and bloody well read (I know, I know, it's totally shocking) sheet music, such an old fashioned skill and play an instrument to a pretty reasonable standard (and some others after a fashion). I still remember the look of delight on a library owner's face when she spoke about a live session and how I should send the midi over to the orchestrator, and I said " err, it's all orchestrated, and I can prepare the Sibelius files". Her face lit up - also money saved for her. 

Although I remember another time when it sort of backfired. We were doing a choir album, Ligeti style, and a fair few composers had simply hit some keys on some choir fx patches, and of course they had no way of translating that into a readable score quickly, and it was Friday night, the choir was rehearsing Monday for a Tuesday recording, and they had a handful of unsuable pieces (in all honesty the guy in charge should have been better prepared). So suddenly I had 2 days to write 6 Lux Aeterna style pieces. Groan. Didn't get much sleep that weekend.


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## Carles (Apr 27, 2018)

Replicant said:


> Tell me: How many guys do you know, who suddenly at age 50 wound up making a living from it and working on projects any of us would know


You can easily find in Google people who did succeed when 50 or 65, (writers, politicians, scientists, etc) but this is not my point either. The end of your sentence I'm quoting here is to me the whole thing "and working on projects any of us would know".
My question is, why one has to become famous to be considered successful? what is actually the meaning for the term "success"?
Then is when everyone point of view can change drastically.
It seems that if one will work on a well known project (even if only one) then one becomes successful but if one won't put a foot on major projects then one becomes a loser... I'm sorry but don't get it.

Why anyone success has to measured using the "fame ruler" or by how million dollars one is worth.

Some of my friends are farmers (well, even not that, just people working on somebody else's farms) and these guys never did suffer from stress, never lost a single sleeping night because of concerns, they deeply love the direct contact with the nature, they are plain and honest, greatly loved and respected by their families and enjoying from good moments with their friends constantly... they are not well known people obviously but I cannot consider them as losers, just the opposite they have what I'd consider a (very) happy successful life.

On the other hand, I know people who practically live inside a company, constantly playing hypocrisy and doing unethical things just to get a step higher in their career, hated by everyone, with a broken family (or not any)... to me, no matter if these guys will be supervisor of this or that, or if they will pick an Oscar personally, their actual lives are just trash, hence to me they are truly losers no matter how high they will climb in their so important careers.

That's why I say that everyone's point of view can differ so much.

As I've mentioned before, a 6 figure salary and having my name in well known movies didn't make me happier. With all honesty, I've been much happier doing my personal CG work than working in any of the companies I've worked.

I don't care what people will think about me, if I'll achieve the goal that's to make a living from writing music as a perfectly anonymous writer for a few production music libraries then I'll consider myself a successful composer, because my goal is not to become Hans Zimmer but a much humble one, I just want to be able to pay the bills by doing something that I love and keep dreaming every day with the hope that the joy of those magical moments I feel when writing music will never abandon me the same way that the magic of creating CG artwork one day did left me and I've never been able to find it again. What other would consider "success" was precisely what killed me as CG artist, and I don't want to fall into the same pit again.
I just want to work privately at home, with no politics, no tight deadlines, no interviews, no meetings, no pressure and having time to attend things that are actually more relevant than "the career".
As long as I'll be able to pay bills and afford some instruments eventually I'll be perfectly happy by being "a loser"


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## Rohann (Apr 27, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> I think the OP is looking for ways to make more money, not compassion. Any real advice?
> 
> I see that the OP has a lot of music at Pond5 for $20 a song. Raise those prices to at least $50 a song.
> 
> ...



I have no experience on which to base my evaluation, but this sounds like great advice.


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 27, 2018)

Lots of wonderful, inspirational, knowledgeable, but irrelevant info in this thread.

I still don’t see anyone trying to help Erick except me.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 27, 2018)

Carles said:


> My question is, why one has to become famous to be considered successful? what is actually the meaning for the term "success"?
> Then is when everyone point of view can change drastically.
> It seems that if one will work on a well known project (even if only one) then one becomes successful but if one won't put a foot on major projects then one becomes a loser... I'm sorry but don't get it.
> 
> Why anyone success has to measured using the "fame ruler" or by how million dollars one is worth.



Yeah, I'm not sure what Replicant is considering "success". I didn't get the break I was looking for until I was 44, and I have considered myself successful ever since because I'm exactly where I always dreamed. Of course, I'm always keeping my sites high and dreaming bigger, but that's because I love challenging myself. Am I earning a million dollars and scoring in Hollywood? Hello no, and that was never my plan. I'm living comfortably and writing a ton of music...and earning a decent living from composing music, professional drumming, and power engineering. And...I'm healthy, which is the most important thing. I no spring chicken (almost 50), but you can keep yourself looking/feeling young if you live the life you strive for.


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 28, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> So Erick:
> 
> Have you raised your prices on Pond5 yet? Have you started to go through the songs that are not selling and deleting them? Are you preparing to make some new YouTube videos? Have you contacted any music libraries to see if they are seeking new music? Have you created any new songs since the original post?



Not yet. I do tend to procrastinate on some things. Raising my prices and deleting old tracks is not on the top of my list. I am contacting Pond5 support about helping me with that since I have so many tracks. But I did create a new track  Not perfect but it's okay I think.


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 28, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> Lots of wonderful, inspirational, knowledgeable, but irrelevant info in this thread.
> 
> I still don’t see anyone trying to help Erick except me.


People have helped a lot, including you. I appreciate your concern though


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## germancomponist (Apr 28, 2018)

Carles said:


> You can easily find in Google people who did succeed when 50 or 65, (writers, politicians, scientists, etc) but this is not my point either. The end of your sentence I'm quoting here is to me the whole thing "and working on projects any of us would know".
> My question is, why one has to become famous to be considered successful? what is actually the meaning for the term "success"?
> Then is when everyone point of view can change drastically.
> It seems that if one will work on a well known project (even if only one) then one becomes successful but if one won't put a foot on major projects then one becomes a loser... I'm sorry but don't get it.
> ...



You are awake, consciously living in the "here and now" and you do not let yourself be dragged into the hamster wheel for a career in our system. Very good!


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## GtrString (Apr 28, 2018)

I wouldnt bother with marketing as a composer. You ARE the marketing, for the projects you get involved in, and your music. Content marketing is the current marketing paradigm.


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## Replicant (Apr 28, 2018)

Carles said:


> As long as I'll be able to pay bills and afford some instruments eventually I'll be perfectly happy by being "a loser"



The reason I speak of projects with a sort of renown is because it's pretty unlikely one is going to be making enough money to pay their bills unless they're scoring projects that have some clout because they're the ones _with_ the money to spend.

You say you did a major film and now you like doing smaller things.

You are in the like, 1% of people who are actually able to _say_ that. Most people never get to the former stage.

Man, if I did a film that was a big-budget film where the money they're blowing on it is in the 10s, maybe 100s of millions, I'd negotiate a price that would ensure I'd be set for the next decade if not life. I don't know what his lifestyle is like, but with the money Zimmer makes, I'm sure that he could've stopped at a single-digit number of films and been more than well off.

Regardless you are 100% in the successful people I'm talking about.

Being able to pay your bills from music alone, be it through doing big-budget projects or a ton of small projects is a rare position to be in.



Wolfie2112 said:


> I didn't get the break I was looking for until I was 44, and I have considered myself successful ever since because I'm exactly where I always dreamed.



But here's one of my points, Wolfie:

What were you doing for the 20-some years up until then? What you be doing if it never worked out? Would you be happy if it didn't?

Maybe _you_ would be, but plenty of people are not. Like that one guy who told me he forgoes proper meals and eats beans on toast because it allows him to have money for music purchases and he works roofing 12 hours a day. I could be wrong, but I think he wasn't imagining on being a roofer well into his 30s and still not making a living at music. Will he be happy if he's 50 and he's still in that same spot? I'd ask if I could remember who it was.

For most people wanting to become professional musicians, they sacrifice alternative careers to make time and money for music, and wind up in a dead-end job they hate for DECADES and the music thing _never works out_.



Wolfie2112 said:


> Yeah, I'm not sure what Replicant is considering "success".



Progress; moving on to bigger and better things and creating something that inspires people.

When I was in my early 20s, I did a lot of remixes and some of them got 10s of thousands of plays on YouTube and people liked them. I got emails and stuff from people who felt inspired to do the same and wanted some help.

When I did my first video game soundtrack, it was working with talents that I admired and they made something really cool.

The next one I did, I would go to tech shows or summer festivals where it was on display and I watched people of all ages play it and have a blast and some of them even commented on liking the music and it also wound up in a charity event that raised a lot of money for sick children. That was a great feeling.

I want to do projects that people WANT to participate in, play or watch. The hard truth is that the bulk of indie games are shovelware that people MIGHT buy for $1 on Steam and play ten minutes of; 99% of indie films are hipster, avant-garde, artsy nonsense that people wouldn't even pirate let alone _pay_ to watch.

If you wind up doing nothing but these kinds of projects, you've just stagnated; there is no progress in your "career". "But I make music for me!" Yeah? Well then, why not just lock yourself in your studio and pump out tracks and call it a day if that's honestly good enough? Why pursue a career in it if you really don't care about anyone else's opinion or money?

Some of us dare to pursue bigger and better things. Things that matter to even complete strangers and enrich their lives somehow and create a respectable _legacy_ for the creators, and generally speaking...it's these kinds of projects that go hand-in-hand with being able to do everything from simply pay your bills or go as far as buy a yacht.


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## Carles (Apr 28, 2018)

Replicant said:


> You say you did a major film and now you like doing smaller things.
> 
> You are in the like, 1% of people who are actually able to _say_ that. Most people never get to the former stage.


I'm sorry man but something got misunderstood here.
I'm not a film maker but (used to be) a CG artist and haven't worked on a major film but on 15 well known movies
Here the list:
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3896547/

And yes, I'm more happy writing music at home than working at Weta Digital.

If I won't succeed with my cvurrent plan (making a living from music by around 2020, or untill my savings will reach) then I'll have to back to the VFX/Animation arena in order to pay the bills, and most likely won't apply to any big studios but something more intimate because I did found certain values in the past more important to me than money and reputation.
Admittedly, I'm possibly part of that 1% (I do suffer from moderate Asperger syndrome hence my particular way to evaluate what's worth and what's not) but my point of view is also valid. Why not.

As weird as it might sound, if myperception sounds unusual, I know people who surpises even to myself. One guy did left Weta (meaning a nice salary and honors) but did stay in New Zealand (really hard do not fall in love with such a cool country) to build a sheep farm. Another colleague of mine who worked not only at Weta but on mostly major VFX Studios (including Industrial Light and Magic) is currently at Yucatan in the middle of nowhere building a house with sticks and whatever he and his wife can find from the nature (while I'm aware that he has huge savings), someone who I didn't meet personally left a supervising position at Industrial Light and Magic to back to his humble city to work on personal projects and some freelance work (left well over 6 figures salary but gained freedom instead) and it's a pity that cannot remember his name right now (I'll try to search that later) but one of the supervisors who worked on The Lord of Rings left the VFX industry and currently owns a royalty free library... I mean, there are lots of options out there and lots of preferences. Not anybody is measuring "success" with the same ruler, and any single of those options are perfectly valid. It all depends on everyone's perception of what's valuable and what's not.


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 28, 2018)

Carles said:


> I'm sorry man but something got misunderstood here.
> I'm not a film maker but (used to be) a CG artist and haven't worked on a major film but on 15 well known movies
> Here the list:
> https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3896547/
> ...


Wow, that's quite a list of movies on your portfolio 
Really appreciate your incite! I agree with you. There are many valid means of success, and different ways of measuring success.


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## Rohann (Apr 28, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Yeah, I'm not sure what Replicant is considering "success". I didn't get the break I was looking for until I was 44, and I have considered myself successful ever since because I'm exactly where I always dreamed. Of course, I'm always keeping my sites high and dreaming bigger, but that's because I love challenging myself. Am I earning a million dollars and scoring in Hollywood? Hello no, and that was never my plan. I'm living comfortably and writing a ton of music...and earning a decent living from composing music, professional drumming, and power engineering. And...I'm healthy, which is the most important thing. I no spring chicken (almost 50), but you can keep yourself looking/feeling young if you live the life you strive for.


Largely speaking to myself here, but defining success _for yourself_ is extremely important -- while the _generic_ usage of the term may conventionally mean "sustaining a well-paying career in Hollywood", I'm extremely disinterested in that, personally (right now anyway), and as such it doesn't fall into my definition (nor does my version of success likely mirror others'). Heck, the _primary _definition of success is "The accomplishment of an aim or purpose". Constantly assessing that definition seems wise. There's an irritating tendency, especially in the business world, to narrow it down to "making as much money as possible".


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## Carles (Apr 29, 2018)

Also "to make a living" meaning can change drastically depending firstly on your physical location (income from royalties are the same no matter where you live being the only difference the taxing system where you are living in).

For instance, the average salary where I'm living currently (Spain) is around 1K (Euros) a month (after taxes).
You cannot even dream with living with neat 12K a year in cities like LA, NY, Sydney or Paris, and there are cheaper countries just within the European Union, and even -way- cheaper countries outer Europe so an income that won't allow you to live in X city could provide a luxury-like life style in another country/city.

Also the expectations that everyone might have in life may differ greatly.
For some people "to make a living" is just having a humble lifestyle while other may call "to make a living" to having a more than comfortable life.
Some people find "necessary" to have the biggest and more recent TV screen, an expensive surround audio system, having both a sport car and a 4x4 car, to be able to afford expensive travels around the world, etc. while other people can be extremely happy by just having a humble house within a beautiful natural space.

Again, everyone's point of view can make a vast difference not only about the concept for "happiness" but even for the details to achieve that, including the definition for "to make a living".


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## Carles (Apr 29, 2018)

Carles said:


> and it's a pity that cannot remember his name right now (I'll try to search that later) but one of the supervisors who worked on The Lord of Rings left the VFX industry and currently owns a royalty free library...


Found him 
His name is Mark Lewis (some colleagues at Weta told me about him but I was unable to remember his name)
You can read this in his LinkedIn profile:

"I worked as a senior digital compositer and sequence supervisor on all three Lord of the Rings films and King Kong as well as many other projects during my time at Weta Digital in Wellington New Zealand."

He currently owns "musicloops.com"

For those not familiar with the VFX/Animation industry, a compositer (aka compositor, or "comper") are among the best paid roles in the industry (the few "compers" I had confidence enough as per talk about salaries were making more than twice my salary as a "mere" Texture Artist, and with my salary I was able to (very comfortably) feed a family of 4 at Wellington plus paying my mortgage/expenses in Spain) but he also had a supervising position (you would be shocked by the income of any supervising position in a big studio).

With such a CV, this guy could choose to work in any major VFX studios in Earth, and (money aside) even to pick an Oscar with his own hands as a sequence/show supervisor some day if kept working on the field, but he did choose another path.

I did never meet him (that was way before I got in Weta) and never emailed him (tempted to though) but everything seems to indicate (to me anyway) that in his own "scale of values", the same than in my very own case, passion for music weighted more than honors and reputation.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 30, 2018)

Replicant said:


> What were you doing for the 20-some years up until then? What you be doing if it never worked out? Would you be happy if it didn't?



I stopped touring, got the best job I could (including a technical certificate), raised a family, and now I'm back at it full force. I continued to write part-time all those years, but now I have a lot more knowledge and experience...which has paid off huge. If I had given up on the "musical dream" years ago, I'd be very miserable now and full of regret and resentment. That's just me, though. I totally see where you're coming from, but I just can't accept that one must give up their dreams....not me anyways.


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## dannymc (Apr 30, 2018)

Carles said:


> Also "to make a living" meaning can change drastically depending firstly on your physical location (income from royalties are the same no matter where you live being the only difference the taxing system where you are living in).
> 
> For instance, the average salary where I'm living currently (Spain) is around 1K (Euros) a month (after taxes).
> You cannot even dream with living with neat 12K a year in cities like LA, NY, Sydney or Paris, and there are cheaper countries just within the European Union, and even -way- cheaper countries outer Europe so an income that won't allow you to live in X city could provide a luxury-like life style in another country/city.
> ...



this is the issue i also have with aiming to do music full time. i see it as a highly volatile industry. i mean yeah you could be a great in demand composer or sound designer for 5 years making 6 figures but can you be sure in 10 years time you will be able to guarantee the same? i live in Dublin Ireland and to be honest you would need to be making at least $50k a year to have a decent life here. the difference is, with a career job i can guarantee that $50k a year every year until i retire not to mention a pension after that. with music could i be sure of the same returns? i couldn't handle earning $100k one year and $20k the next its just not something that would suit my lifestyle. i'm also terrible with money and never have a rainy day fund. 

but maybe i'm underestimating how much money can be made in this industry but until i see different i'm keeping the day job. 

Danny


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 30, 2018)

dannymc said:


> but maybe i'm underestimating how much money can be made in this industry but until i see different i'm keeping the day job.
> 
> Danny



You are doing the right thing by keeping your day job.


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 30, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> You are doing the right thing by keeping your day job.


Certainly, if one has that luxury that is the wise thing to do  
I've been thinking of maybe doing some kind of flexible online job, but not really sure where to look. A lot of potential 
for people scamming you with that. It'd have to be a reputable company.


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## MatFluor (Apr 30, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> Certainly, if one has that luxury that is the wise thing to do
> I've been thinking of maybe doing some kind of flexible online job, but not really sure where to look. A lot of potential
> for people scamming you with that. It'd have to be a reputable company.



It depends on your skills. Good remote skills are writing (copywriting etc) and programming. I often see remote programming positions - webdev seems to be the majority.
Or just look for a part-time dayjob with Homeoffice and flexibility - Sysadmin, accounting or the like - maybe translator for stuff like blogposts, manual, websites.
As said - depends on your skills.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Apr 30, 2018)

I wish Carles would be my therapist.


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## Erick - BVA (May 1, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> It depends on your skills. Good remote skills are writing (copywriting etc) and programming. I often see remote programming positions - webdev seems to be the majority.
> Or just look for a part-time dayjob with Homeoffice and flexibility - Sysadmin, accounting or the like - maybe translator for stuff like blogposts, manual, websites.
> As said - depends on your skills.


Good suggestions. I really should brush up on my Russian skills. Tensions between US and Russia seem to be on the rise (unfortunately). I'm sure there's a demand for a Russian speaker somewhere.


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## X-Bassist (May 2, 2018)

Good thread Sib. Please don’t listen to those posts that start with “If you haven’t made it by age...”. I’ve started many careers in my life and have seen many make it at 50, 60, 70, and yes, older. The only thing that stops them is their own attitude. Stay positive and keep working on your own creative voice, and those that appreciate it will seek you out. Keep working on pieces your passionate about and understand any kind of work can be a learning experience. I worked on mixing a pop album I didn’t love, but the client was happy. Then a friend of his contacted me to compose music for his film. Got paid decently and it just won some awards! I never saw that coming, but staying positive and willing to help definitely helped make it happen. 

There is never a time when it is too late. There are always more projects on the horizon.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 2, 2018)

X-Bassist said:


> Good thread Sib. Please don’t listen to those posts that start with “If you haven’t made it by age...”. I’ve started many careers in my life and have seen many make it at 50, 60, 70, and yes, older. The only thing that stops them is their own attitude. Stay positive and keep working on your own creative voice, and those that appreciate it will seek you out. Keep working on pieces your passionate about and understand any kind of work can be a learning experience. I worked on mixing a pop album I didn’t love, but the client was happy. Then a friend of his contacted me to compose music for his film. Got paid decently and it just won some awards! I never saw that coming, but staying positive and willing to help definitely helped make it happen.
> 
> There is never a time when it is too late. There are always more projects on the horizon.



Couldn't agree more! Age has NOTHING to do with this, plain and simple. In fact, I love it when the cynical composers give up , it just creates more opportunities for the rest of us


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 2, 2018)

Just for perspective purposes, here are some successful people that "made it" later in life...

* Estée Lauder: 54 – Estée Lauder Cosmetics
* Morgan Freeman: 50 - didn't get his breakthrough film role until 1987
* Kawasaki Shozo: 59 – Founder of Kawasaki motorcycles
* Tony Ryan: 49 – Founder of RyanAir
* Adolf Dassler: 48 – Founder of Adidas
* Ray Kroc: 52 - Founder of McDonald's.
* Laura Ingalls Wilder: 65 – Writer of the "Little House" books
* Harland Sanders: 62 - Founder of Kentucky Fried Chicken (he was pretty much broke until then)
* Charles Darwin: 50 when published ‘On the Origin of Species’
* Gene Hackman: 34- first film role


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## Replicant (May 2, 2018)

It's like people learned nothing from that conversation we had about "survival bias"


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## Alex Fraser (May 2, 2018)

Replicant said:


> It's like people learned nothing from that conversation we had about "survival bias"


We learned that folk like to copy/paste stuff off wikipedia in order to sound smart..


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## Replicant (May 2, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> We learned that folk like to copy/paste stuff off wikipedia in order to sound smart..



Lol. Good logical fallacy there

The information is undeniably true and as we see here; you guys _love_ to ignore the entire graveyards of people who were just as talented, just as determined if not more so, and it never happened.

Keep your day jobs folks. In twenty years, if you wind up living the dream (I hope so), then drinks are on me.

If you wind up middle-aged, alone, living paycheck to paycheck and hating your life, I'll be there to say I warned you.

Until then, I have nothing further to say.


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## Alex Fraser (May 2, 2018)

Replicant said:


> Until then, I have nothing further to say.


I bet you do. 

But - I'm winding you up deliberately, when actually, I agree with a lot of what you're saying.
But I think there are a lot of absolutes being thrown around here (as is always the case with internet forums) and they're not helpful.

I'm always struck by the story of the composer gent who works with Spitfire, Oliver. You see his handsome visage on all the Spitfire promo videos and walkthroughs. Story goes, he simply turned up on the office doorstep one day and asked for a job. One single, clever, good move. (Obviously talent and skill too.)

Contrast that with, say, a composer who spends every waking moment writing beautiful film scores. But only scores for small vanity films that are never going to go anywhere.

Or a singer who performs every night, seven days a week. But never ventures 30 miles from his home town, hundreds of miles away from LA.

Hard work, determination and perseverance alone has never led to success. There's always luck, sure. But also intelligent moves: Putting yourself in places and situations with people who will help you achieve your goals.

I guess I'm trying to say that if you understand *that* - then age becomes less of a factor. I agree that you can't make a glib comment like "If you keep dreaming and working hard, you'll reach your goals." Of course that's BS. But by the same token, you can't lay down a bunch of absolutes to the contrary. Everyone's journey is different.

What are defining as success, by the way? Film composer credits or an income from writing music? Because whilst I'll concur that the first one might be age dependant, the second one certainly isn't.


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## Desire Inspires (May 2, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> Certainly, if one has that luxury that is the wise thing to do
> I've been thinking of maybe doing some kind of flexible online job, but not really sure where to look. A lot of potential
> for people scamming you with that. It'd have to be a reputable company.



Luxury?

*Get to work, bro!*

There are thousands of people with disabilities that work from home. You have a college degree. Start applying to temp agencies and get a job where you can work from home. If you can make posts on V.I. Control, you can get a job.

Don't be lazy, man. I am sorry you are disabled, but I am not sorry for you if you refuse to use the abilities you have to make money. Music is fun and cute and all, but if you can't make enough to pay your bills with it, you get another job to supplement your income. There are plenty of people working jobs and doing music.

This woman is a true inspiration!!!


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## Erick - BVA (May 2, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> Luxury?
> 
> *Get to work, bro!*
> 
> ...




I am not disabled --at least I don't consider myself to be. It's a family member. And the nature of the disability makes it difficult for me to manage time and use my other talents. So this is why I am focusing on only a few things at a time. You know what I mean by "luxury." I wish I had a job so I could get out of the house more often. I go on VI control to help strengthen the talents I do have a desire to persue. I already get burnt out from sound design and music as it is (not to mention helping the family member with the disability). So while I do want to do more things, it's ultimitely not possible. I came to this conclusion after posting this and getting a bunch of great advice. I am where I am today because of hard work and perserverence. If I quit now then I will 
ensure that I will not succeed. I am not failing now, so there is no reason to quit what I am doing. 
I have heard the realists and the dreamers, and the leve-headed ones. Great advice from all.
Ultimitely the person living their life has to make a decision, and those on the sidelines (especially on the internet) only have a snipet of the equation to be able to make a judgement on what exactly another person is to do. 
I appreciate you input, but as I've said, I have decided what I want to do. I am going to continue to work hard on music and sound design, in fact, I am determined to work harder than ever.


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## gregh (May 2, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> I am not disabled --at least I don't consider myself to be. It's a family member. And the nature of the disability makes it difficult for me to manage time and use my other talents. So this is why I am focusing on only a few things at a time. You know what I mean by "luxury." I wish I had a job so I could get out of the house more often. I go on VI control to help strengthen the talents I do have a desire to persue. I already get burnt out from sound design and music as it is (not to mention helping the family member with the disability). So while I do want to do more things, it's ultimitely not possible. I came to this conclusion after posting this and getting a bunch of great advice. I am where I am today because of hard work and perserverence. If I quit now then I will
> ensure that I will not succeed. I am not failing now, so there is no reason to quit what I am doing.
> I have heard the realists and the dreamers, and the leve-headed ones. Great advice from all.
> Ultimitely the person living their life has to make a decision, and those on the sidelines (especially on the internet) only have a snipet of the equation to be able to make a judgement on what exactly another person is to do.
> I appreciate you input, but as I've said, I have decided what I want to do. I am going to continue to work hard on music and sound design, in fact, I am determined to work harder than ever.



Having a life is way more important than having a career and being a carer can be tough - I am familiar with the great time constraints including unpredictability. You have to look after your own health - first and foremost get enough sleep. When free time arises, always choose the sleep if you need it. Then when you are alert and have time you can focus on continuing to develop your career - which as you say is going fine already. Consider analytically which of your existing activities can work with unpredictable time frames - stopping and starting at any moment. Which need longer uninterrupted time scales. Do the career planning around that and your knowledge of the daily routine. Get respite care if you can. In my country this is possible but you might be in the USA where it is more difficult. Either way, sleep when you can, keep healthy, continue building your existing career with a knowledge of which aspects of production can deal with complex time constraints

( Also consider the sounds of your home, of the daily activities, Is there a "foley library to be made there"? Can you exploit the sonic aspects of your daily life?)


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 2, 2018)

Replicant said:


> Keep your day jobs folks. In twenty years, if you wind up living the dream (I hope so), then drinks are on me.



Then get your ass down to Calgary, you owe me a lot of drinks. I am living the dream, took me 20+ years to get here, but I did it.

PS- I hope you don't end up a miserable old fart one day, full of regret and resentment. Never mind...you're already an Oilers fan


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## MatFluor (May 2, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> We learned that folk like to copy/paste stuff off wikipedia in order to sound smart..



Was I meant by that?

Just to say, I studied psychology and am a specialist officer for the psychological service in the swiss military - so if I was meant - I know what I'm talking about, and don't just copy stuff to sound smart


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## Replicant (May 2, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Then get your ass down to Calgary, you owe me a lot of drinks. I am living the dream, took me 20+ years to get here, but I did it.
> 
> PS- I hope you don't end up a miserable old fart one day, full of regret and resentment. Never mind...you're already an Oilers fan



You've _already_ made it, no deal. 

Besides, I might have to dodge airplanes on the road and stuff 

I'm also not actually into Hockey, but even I know that the Flames destroy the Oilers.


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## Bollen (May 6, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> ... But also intelligent moves: Putting yourself in places and situations with people who will help you achieve your goals.



This, in a nutshell, is the key to "making it". Speaking as someone who has changed countries and careers (always music related) about 20 times, this little secret is what has opened the doors every time for me. From attempting to be a jazz musician, an arranger, a Hollywood film composer, an academic or now... A classical composer; the trick is NOT to think mainstream, but to think who needs me. In jazz it was easy, you hit a jam session, listen to everybody playing and then get up and play differently (more lyrical, more whacky, more intellectual). In arranging it was sophistication (everybody writes too simplistic). In academia it was inventing a new harmony theory. In film I found some younger directors, helped them cheaply, climbed the ropes and ended up in a team writing for a big budget (horrible experience).

Now I want to go down in history... Ha! We'll see... The only thing I couldn't manage to get into was library music. Mostly because I despised writing disposable music.

But my advise would be to don't just pursue the "obvious" avenues i.e. music libraries, agents; but also actively chase down the people that you feel/think might appreciate your work. For example look at the Early Access games on Steam, lots of those guys have budgets and hire people, but they're too busy with programming to think of music and sound design. Send them a sound file demo of something you think would work well in a specific point in their game. Also, get in touch with films schools (lots of rich kids like to make films or have some sort of funding). I am certainly finding out now that the best approach (as a classical composer) is to find young upcoming classical soloists and writing things for them... Eventually I got commissioned to write a huge orchestral concerto!

The Spitfire guy is just one of a million examples of people that went out there and just grabbed their dream by the throat. Be active, aim high and be clever!


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## Desire Inspires (May 6, 2018)

Bollen said:


> The only thing I couldn't manage to get into was library music. Mostly because I despised writing disposable music.



Say what?!?


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## Bollen (May 6, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> Say what?!?


As in pouring your heart out on a piece of music that then gets compiled into a "mood/atmosphere" CD label with another 20 tracks that will sit at some music supervisors' shelf and never be heard from again...


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## Desire Inspires (May 6, 2018)

Bollen said:


> As in pouring your heart out on a piece of music that then gets compiled into a "mood/atmosphere" CD label with another 20 tracks that will sit at some music supervisors' shelf and never be heard from again...



Oh, that little thing.

It is a bit of like working at a fast food restaurant. Just churning out stuff that will be used, consumed, and forgotten. 

But what other option is there to make money from music?


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## Bollen (May 6, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> Oh, that little thing.
> 
> It is a bit of like working at a fast food restaurant. Just churning out stuff that will be used, consumed, and forgotten.



Hear, hear! Well put.



Desire Inspires said:


> But what other option is there to make money from music?



Well I suppose it depends in what you mean by making money... How to make loads of money? I am the least qualified person to answer that, but presumably you try your hand at Pop music or try to become a famous film composer, two avenues that depend heavily on "luck", connections, nationality and social class.

Now how to survive from making music? There are more than I can count... From busking to being a bespoke composer in a niche circle...


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## Desire Inspires (Jun 11, 2019)

Carles said:


> Despite a 6 figure salary and honors, at some point I realized that I was not happy working on a major studios and music did become my next "dream"



You actually gave up a six figure salary to do music? I am confused.


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## Carles (Jun 11, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> You actually gave up a six figure salary to do music? I am confused.


Correct. Not only left my day job, up to date, the privilege of writing music full time still has a cost for me (my royalties are still pretty low so I'm still paying the bills from my savings).

To me, there are things much more valuable than money. My target is still to be able to make a regular salary from royalties just enough to pay bills in a non expensive country like the one I'm living currently (Spain), no more than that (but unfortunately I'm still far from that despite it's a much easier target than living in UK or USA). I'm not a materialist guy. My interest in money is just the compulsory need to make some in order to have a regular life.
If I won't succeed with that (most likely not because the Production Music biz runs so freaking slow) then I'll have to look for a day job again within a year or so (I'm already two years living from savings) but it shouldn't be a big problem since my CV is quite good, so we'll see.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 11, 2019)

@Carles good for you! I agree, money doesn't really mean much if you aren't truly happy. If you can afford to give this an honest attempt, then that is great. Even if it doesn't work out, you can still find another job and continue pursuing it part time. Plus, you won't have that nagging feeling of "what if". If I lived in Spain, I would pursue a career as a composer...while working part time at a winery. I'm actually working towards becoming a sommelier, I'm now working on level 2 WSET. My dream is be a composer/sommelier in the Okanagan (very close to where I live). Good luck with your adventure!


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## Desire Inspires (Jun 11, 2019)

Carles said:


> Correct. Not only left my day job, up to date, the privilege of writing music full time still has a cost for me (my royalties are still pretty low so I'm still paying the bills from my savings).
> 
> To me, there are things much more valuable than money. My target is still to be able to make a regular salary from royalties just enough to pay bills in a non expensive country like the one I'm living currently (Spain), no more than that (but unfortunately I'm still far from that despite it's a much easier target than living in UK or USA). I'm not a materialist guy. My interest in money is just the compulsory need to make some in order to have a regular life.
> If I won't succeed with that (most likely not because the Production Music biz runs so freaking slow) then I'll have to look for a day job again within a year or so (I'm already two years living from savings) but it shouldn't be a big problem since my CV is quite good, so we'll see.



Well okay then.....

For me, I could not even dream about that.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 11, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> Well okay then.....
> 
> For me, I could not even dream about that.



How come?


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## Desire Inspires (Jun 11, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> How come?



I stay in America. $hit is expensive as hell here! 

“Land of the free, home of the rich” is what I call it.

How much income would it take for me to do music full time? No less than $50,000 USD a year.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 11, 2019)

Good point!


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## Desire Inspires (Jun 11, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Good point!



Yeah, $50K a year is for a decent, no-frills life in a decent part of town or suburb in middle America. Forget about East Coast, West Coast, or Miami Beach, or DC area.

And just earning $50K a year from music isn’t really enough. You still have no money going towards retirement and no health insurance. So don’t get sick or don’t have a chronic health condition like diabetes, lupus, MS, or other ailments. 

Or just lie about your music money and get on welfare. That could work too.


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