# Good Algorithmic Reverb Suggestions?



## John R Wilson (Apr 23, 2020)

What are some good Algorithmic reverbs for orchestral music? Also, what is your approach to using reverb on wet samples? I have been primarily using Spaces 2 reverb and using this for its ER and Tail for the EWHO. However, more wet sample libraries such as the BBCSO already have lots of ER recorded into the samples and thus I've been wondering whether to only add some extra tail from an algorithmic reverb and to disable the ER / not add any additional ER. Whats everyones approach to this?


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## CT (Apr 23, 2020)

Valhalla Room! 

As far as early reflections with wet samples, I am now pretty much settled on keeping VR's "Depth" slider at 100%, which means no early stuff is getting added. I can understand the thinking that, in theory, adding that in should blend the source with the tail better, but I think it just compromises the sound. Might change my mind tomorrow, who knows.


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## chapbot (Apr 23, 2020)




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## Wunderhorn (Apr 23, 2020)

Logic's ChromaVerb is a nice one too. Seems to be up there with Valhalla.
Seventh Heaven in the video above sounds great and I was tempted - until I realized that it requires that gaggy iLok. Credit card went back into the wallet and I'll stick with what I have for now.


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## jcrosby (Apr 23, 2020)

Valhalla Room's been my default, but after picking up PhonixVerb I'm using this quite a bit as well... I've even used Pro-R to great effect as well as NI's RC verbs... Algo Reverbs these days are excellent, lots of great options even for $50... Chromaverb's a great example of how even a DAW verb can be all you _really_ need.


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## Virtuoso (Apr 23, 2020)

Seventh Heaven is indeed excellent but it's convolution not algorithmic.

For a transparent algo reverb ideal for classical, it's hard to beat PhoenixVerb/Nimbus/Stratus.


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## muziksculp (Apr 23, 2020)

Check out *R2* developed by Exponential Audio, now part of iZotope. It's one of the Algorithmic Reverbs I like using for Orchestral/Acoustic Instruments. 

R2 Reverb 

It is 50% Off $99. instead of $199.00


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## Beat Kaufmann (Apr 24, 2020)

2CAudio's *Breeze2*
...my everyday-reverb for all my recordings, which always need just a little supporting tail.

I sometimes use the Phoenix reverb from Exponential Audio as well. Although it's better to work on ER and tail separately with Phoenix, Breeze produces an even more pleasing tail than Exponential Audio in "my ears" - also more stereo, more spatial.
But: You'll have to test the reverb tools that are on the shortlist yourself.
It's always a matter of taste and of course it depends on how well you know an effect and how well you can use it.

Beat


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 24, 2020)

I'd go with Nimbus as my #1 recommendation (Phoenix is the little brother of Nimbus). However, Exponential reverbs require iLok. I didn't let that stop me, and my Nimbus and R4 are my favorite reverbs hands-down.

But it's so subjective. For example, Breeze, to my ears, for example, sounded annoying. Seventh Heaven was almost more like a tone shaper to me than a reverb, etc.


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## bryla (Apr 24, 2020)

I always default to R4. It seems to suit all my needs and sounds great.


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## John R Wilson (Apr 24, 2020)

Thanks for all the advice. I've kind of shortlisted it down to a few now. So I'm now thinking either Phoenix reverb or Seventh Heaven (standard version). Although, I might get both. I've had a little go with seventh heaven and I found it very clean sounding, seems like it might be nice for what I wanted to do (just add some nice reverb tail without muddying it up or covering the whole source sound). I compared it to Spaces 2. Spaces 2 seems to veil the sound more. Whats the differences between Phoenix reverb, nimbus, R2 and R4?


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 24, 2020)

Nimbus > Phoenix (more features and control, and it has all the Phoenix presets plus 100s more)
R4 > R2 (same... don't bother with R2, honestly, unless you can get it super cheap)

Nimbus vs R4 = Nimbus is designed to be pretty darn transparent but that you can dirty up a bit using Warp and some other built-in methods, whereas R4 is more Lexicon-style and you can really modulate the early reflections and tail, plus gating, etc. - more of an effect, but still smooth.

Seventh Heaven uses IR+algo. But that shouldn't matter if you like what it sounds like.


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## José Herring (Apr 24, 2020)

All I use is Valhalla Room. 

But there are many good ones. It doesn't matter really which one you use. It's how you use it. I had lot of problems with verbs, and it took me a long time and many reverbs to realize that it wasn't the tool. It was me.


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## Michael Antrum (Apr 24, 2020)

Phoenixverb is currently on sale for $10 at Audio Deluxe......


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## jtnyc (Apr 24, 2020)

I think FabFilter Pro-R is worth a mention here. I love it. It can be many things. Clean/transparent, or more colored and fx like. It is incredibly flexible and the UI is a pleasure to use. The ability to increase/decrease decay times based on specific frequency selection is great, and the eq section is equally flexible.

I demoed and compared Breeze 2 and Phoenix with Pro-R and while they all sounded very good, I preferred Pro-R. Breeze 2 is sweet and I might end up with it one day. It sounds more colored to my ears. Not in a bad way, just more obvious, not as transparent. Phoenix sounded very clean and transparent to me, which I can get easily out of Pro-R. I also demoed 2C B2 awhile back and that really impressed me. Sounds gorgeous. Lush, complex and deep. Really nice. It's hits my cpu pretty hard, so I skipped it for now, but it is nice. 

I also have Valhalla Room which is quite good as well. In general it sounds more colored to me than Pro-R or Phoenix. I use it for more fx like things. Long ass tails on synths. Heavily modulated verbs on guitar with volume pedal swells etc...

I have to say again, Pro-R's ability to increase/decrease decay times based on specific frequency selection and the eq section make it really stand out from the rest for me. Valhalla Room and most others won't allow that kind of sculpting. It's just so much more than the usual high cut, low cut - bass/high multiplier configurations that are commonly used. I'd give the demo a try.


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## Glagoliath (Apr 24, 2020)

miket said:


> Valhalla Room!
> 
> As far as early reflections with wet samples, I am now pretty much settled on keeping VR's "Depth" slider at 100%, which means no early stuff is getting added. I can understand the thinking that, in theory, adding that in should blend the source with the tail better, but I think it just compromises the sound. Might change my mind tomorrow, who knows.



Valhalla Room doesn't even belong to a mediocre reverb category, but to a bad reverb category.
This is what Valhalla Room is producing even with darkest settings when the sound becomes dull:


You see that yellow color? It shouldn't be there, that produces harshness.
This is what it should be producing:



brown noise.
Guess which reverb is in second picture?
Valhalla Vintage Verb.
Same developer, same price, way more better reverb.

From Valhalla blog, settings which are producing concert halls in Valhalla Room and they look like this:




Concert halls can't produce that harshness which means that Valhalla Room can't emulate properly spaces and it can't create a proper hall reverb.
Concert halls are big spaces filled with gas which we call air because we live in the ocean of gas which we call atmosphere.
You make the sound in concert hall, the sound travels through the chaos of gas which is constantly moving (hot air/cold air), the gas is dampening the sound, the sound loses high frequencies, the sound gets dispersed and as dispersed bounces off the wall and that entire process creates noise.
That's why if you pop up a balloon in concert hall and record that sound, you record the noise, the brown noise, a special kind of brown noise. Technically, you are not recording "reverb" but dispersion of sound in that space, the noise of that space and when you make IR file, you just captured 1 snapshot of it.
If you set modulation to zero in algorithmic reverb, it works as convolution reverb too, it just applies static reverb and with modulation algorithmic reverbs are doing this:



and that's why if things done right, algorithmic reverbs are better than convolution reverbs, they give more organic sound. If you slap convolution reverb and algorithmic reverb on top of it, you are just making more dense, unrealistic reverb and removing the organic element.


That's why every single decent algorithmic reverb when sampled, when you "pop up balloon" and create IR file from it creates brown noise when you are creating a hall preset in it:






https://i.imgur.com/nWTVxLN.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/paHPGFH.jpg


That's why every single decent algorithmic reverb can come really close to IR files which were made in real spaces:

https://i.imgur.com/6ZNjvH8.png



That was me replicating the sound of NY String Hall IR file from East/West Spaces which was applied to my strings by a friend of mine without me knowing what reverb he applied, it was a blind test. I gave him dry strings, he applied reverb and sent me back file with applied reverb and me using two completely different algorithmic reverbs trying to replicate the applied reverb.
BTW, I used demo version of Vintage Verb, just to make things more objective.
Of course, the deal was that he samples the reverb he used so that we can compare results in spectrum view and not just talking out of our asses.


Now, people are talking about adding tail and stuff, ok, let's see:


https://i.imgur.com/C3ViUBz.gif


I can literally take white, pink, brown noise or ANY IR file and draw whatever envelope, tail, I want and EQ it however I want.



This thing is 10 YEARS OLD. DECADE.
All convolution reverbs are DECADE BEHIND Fruity Convolver in FL Studio because they don't have drawable envelopes and Fruity Convolver works as audio editor, it's packed with tools to edit audio file (IR file) and on top of that it has drawable envelope for volume, pan and EQ.


This video is from 2010:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzAmGtoswAE

One decade old.

Since 2010 I was using it to test algorithmic reverbs, to sample them and to see their footprints and what they do.


I was previously using Acoustic Mirror in Sound Forge 6 and Fruity Convolver when compared to a typical convolution reverb is like comparing alien space ship to a rock.

Who created the engine of Fruity Convolver?
Liquid Sonics and then Image-Line slapped on top of that things which exist in their other plugins and flagship synths like drawable envelopes.


Every single person here who said "Valhalla Room", knows NOTHING about reverbs and he's talking out of his ass.

Make a hall reverb with it, sample it, let's see what it does, THEN we'll talk.
Until then, you are talking out of your ass, it's that simple.


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## bryla (Apr 24, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I had lot of problems with verbs, and it took me a long time and many reverbs to realize that it wasn't the tool. It was me.


Second that. And also my recommendation is really not "the best" algorithmic reverb" it's simply to me, the reverb that gets me 80% of the way with the least amount of hassle.


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## Geomir (Apr 24, 2020)

Wunderhorn said:


> Logic's ChromaVerb is a nice one too. Seems to be up there with Valhalla.
> Seventh Heaven in the video above sounds great and I was tempted - until I realized that it requires that gaggy iLok. Credit card went back into the wallet and I'll stick with what I have for now.


It requires an iLok account, not the dongle!


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## John R Wilson (Apr 24, 2020)

Michael Antrum said:


> Phoenixverb is currently on sale for $10 at Audio Deluxe......




Thanks, just got the Phoenixverb. Was considering the Nimbus instead of the Phoenixverb but cant go wrong at $10!!


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## John R Wilson (Apr 24, 2020)

Liking Phoenixverb, it has a very transparent sound and it does what I was looking for. Think Phoenixverb is going to be nice to use on the more wet samples such as BBCSO, to get a bit of a nice tail added without adding additional ER or veiling the sound too much.


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 24, 2020)

Nimbus has some more EQ and shaping than Phoenix, in terms of what the reverb acts on, plus Warp adds compression and saturation. You can do those things with separate plugins - the downside is that's more complex than having it all in one tool, but the upside is you can pick the tools for those things you love and are already familiar with. Phoenix for $10 is a fantastic value.


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## CT (Apr 24, 2020)

Glagoliath said:


> Every single person here who said "Valhalla Room", knows NOTHING about reverbs and he's talking out of his ass.
> 
> Make a hall reverb with it, sample it, let's see what it does, THEN we'll talk.
> Until then, you are talking out of your ass, it's that simple.



Wow, thanks for the help! Really honoring the forum's motto, "Special Geniuses Charitably Educating Know-Nothings."


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## John R Wilson (Apr 24, 2020)

miket said:


> Valhalla Room!
> 
> As far as early reflections with wet samples, I am now pretty much settled on keeping VR's "Depth" slider at 100%, which means no early stuff is getting added. I can understand the thinking that, in theory, adding that in should blend the source with the tail better, but I think it just compromises the sound. Might change my mind tomorrow, who knows.



I've always heard good things about Valhalla room. I did end up getting Phoenixverb however as it was on sale at $10 and does appear to do the job quite nicely.

In regards to ER with wet samples, I've also started to do the same as you. I have been turning off the ER in phoenixverb this evening and just adding a reverb tail to BBCSO samples. It seems to add some clarity to the sound. Spaces 2 was veiling the sound more. Think I'll probably only add some ER within the reverb with the more dry libraries but stick to only adding some reverb tail for libraries such as the BBCSO.


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 24, 2020)

Nothing wrong with removing early reflections - however, that does mean you aren't putting your sounds in a realistic space. Which may be the point. Early reflections help tell the brain what size the space is. The more ERs and faster they happen = smaller room (if I remember right... if not, consider me chastised).

You can't go wrong with Valhalla Room. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best one for you, or for all situations, or for all sounds/tracks. I prefer others, generally.

I tend to not like convolution or IR-based reverbs because, like you said, they can veil the sound or just color it in ways I don't want or like. But, I don't make orchestral music, so I won't be offended if you ignore me! 

If your samples are wet in terms of reverb or even just lots of room acoustics as part of the samples, NOT adding additional ERs in is probably the right choice, because you'll be doing things to the sound you may not intend - and changing the shape or size of the room.


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## John R Wilson (Apr 24, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Nothing wrong with removing early reflections - however, that does mean you aren't putting your sounds in a realistic space. Which may be the point. Early reflections help tell the brain what size the space is. The more ERs and faster they happen = smaller room (if I remember right... if not, consider me chastised).
> 
> You can't go wrong with Valhalla Room. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best one for you, or for all situations, or for all sounds/tracks. I prefer others, generally.
> 
> ...



I agree. I think that I'll probably add ERs on the more dry libraries such as East Wests Hollywood orchestra to place it more in a space and room, but I figured that libraries such as the BBCSO that have a lot of room tone and ER already recorded in the samples probably don't need to have more ERs added via reverbs.

In regards to convolution reverbs. Spaces 2 has been my main reverb and that more veiled sound over the bbcso samples is what led me to to considering ER on wet samples and whether it's probably best to just not add any ER on at all.


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## Glagoliath (Apr 24, 2020)

miket said:


> Wow, thanks for the help! Really honoring the forum's motto, "Special Geniuses Charitably Educating Know-Nothings."




Forum's moto?

2-3 years ago at KVR forums I also posted those pictures and explained in the most possible polite manner why Valhalla Room is bad and I was welcomed with torches and pitchforks like I was Satan himself by a bunch of clueless idiots who were literally acting this way:
"Go fuck yourself with your stupid sound libraries (because I posted examples of Valhalla Room applied to strings too so that everyone can hear harshness which Valhalla Room is producing, besides showing pictures why that happens) and go fuck yourself with your little stupid pictures!"

Everything started with this:




__





Spitfire Audio — Academy


The Academy brings together the most popular educational videos from the Spitfire Audio family – masterclasses that have amassed almost 10 million views. It is also where you’ll find brand new education videos appearing regularly.



www.spitfireaudio.com





where Spitfire Audio guys mentioned "digital fizz" which Valhalla Room produces.

They were not just attacking me, but talking shit about Christian and that other guy in video and saying things like:
"Who are these 2 fucking clowns?! WTF is "digital fizz"? WTF these 2 idiots are talking about?! Valhalla Room is amazing!"


Now, add 8 YEARS on top of that (only related to reverbs) when I was coming somewhere and explaining things, DEBUNKING what "experts" were saying about reverbs, DEBUNKING their plugins and they had NOTHING else to say but to experience gigantic butthurt and to talk shit to me because all their praising of something went to toilet and someone made out of them a laughing stock.
ESPECIALLY those to whom hanging on forums 5 hours a day is a thing and some sort of career.
Those types immediately go to find some dirt about you, go through your post history, anything for them to make a comeback and to use any possible logical fallacy to say some shit to you and to steer discussion away from what's being discussed because you proved them wrong in front of everyone.


1, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 times.
Fine, I was done with being polite and that's why I go and to say to someone straight away that he's clueless and knowing nothing because I'm fed up of pretentious, egoistic and narcissistic assholes.
I don't care who you are, from where you are, I don't care about your feelings.
You say "This is awesome", I prove you wrong and say "This is shit", prove me wrong, there's nothing else to discuss about and be free to carry proudly your butthurt with you until you prove me wrong and do some actual tests, not talking directly to you, but in a general sense.


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## labornvain (Apr 24, 2020)

Glagoliath said:


> Valhalla Room doesn't even belong to a mediocre reverb category, but to a bad reverb category.
> This is what Valhalla Room is producing even with darkest settings when the sound becomes dull:
> 
> 
> ...



Lol. Don't hold back, man.

For the record I completely agree with you about room verb. Well it's got some really cool algorithms, I've always thought the quality was subpar. But it's also really inexpensive.

Vintageverb, on the other hand, is always a finalist in my bi-annual reverb shootouts.

Regardless, I might recommend not taking this shit too seriously. It's true that ignorant reverb recommendations are the most annoying things in the entire world. But sometimes you just have to let it go.


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## Wunderhorn (Apr 24, 2020)

Geomir said:


> It requires an iLok account, not the dongle!



Just as bad. Yet another account to keep up with, again a third company trying to mess with your privacy... Not worth it for the hassle alone.


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 24, 2020)

Wunderhorn said:


> Just as bad. Yet another account to keep up with, again a third company trying to mess with your privacy... Not worth it for the hassle alone.


Totally not a problem here using ilok. I’d prefer not to, but it’s not a big deal to use.


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## dgburns (Apr 24, 2020)

Hey, I like Valhalla Room.

and I like ponies, and ice cream, Altiverb, B2 and my old lexicon gear ...


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## sostenuto (Apr 24, 2020)

Got Phoenix, Excalibur. Bored now so adding XenoVerb for $10. @ PluginBoutique ... Trial available too. 
Read some cool, positive reviews.









XenoVerb


XenoVerb, XenoVerb plugin, buy XenoVerb, download XenoVerb trial, Audiority XenoVerb




www.pluginboutique.com


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## jcrosby (Apr 24, 2020)

Glagoliath said:


> Forum's moto?
> 
> 2-3 years ago at KVR forums I also posted those pictures and explained in the most possible polite manner why Valhalla Room is bad and I was welcomed with torches and pitchforks like I was Satan himself by a bunch of clueless idiots who were literally acting this way:
> "Go fuck yourself with your stupid sound libraries (because I posted examples of Valhalla Room applied to strings too so that everyone can hear harshness which Valhalla Room is producing, besides showing pictures why that happens) and go fuck yourself with your little stupid pictures!"
> ...



And yet in a blind test they do on camera they contradict a lot of their own previous opinions made in the article you link, and non-blind comparisons made at the beginning of the video.

Christian: Valhalla *barely* loses to the TC 6000, stating _*"That's difficult because I like them both. I think those two are a really good quality pair*." _And,_ *"I'm sad to get rid of one of them"*_*. *Christian then picks Chromaverb over Pro-R, but states before the blind test that he _"loves the restraint of the FabFilter"_ and _"Chroma is just very very bright and fizzy"_. And describes the Lexicon as being the _brightest _in reference to 'top end' after which he describes Chroma Verb's "fizziness"; but the the Lexicon wins the blind test. (Which Jake finds quite amusing.)

Meanwhile Jake: picks Valhalla *over* the TC 6000, stating _*"The Valhalla beat the TC, look at that."*_ And, _*"That was the one I said was really close"*._ Lexicon over Chroma Verb, Exponential Audio R2 over Altiverb, Bricasti over Pro-R, (despite wincing at the Bricasti in the non-blind comparison). Then chooses Lexicon over Valhalla, then chooses Exponential Audio R2 over Bricasti, and chooses R2 over Lexicon in the final listen despite being sure he would settle on Altiverb.

Toward the end Jake states, _*"That surprises me. I have to say out of all of these the surprise/prize package is Valhalla."*_

End result? Both Christian and Jake contradict their preferences throughout the test proving that a blind test is the great equalizer, and both are great sports for being willing to put their money where there mouth is and not resort to explaining away the fact that their ears made very different decisions than they expected when cognitive bias was removed form the equation. Not to mention they have a good healthy laugh about it.

Nothing quite like a group of highly respected professionals willing to put their integrity on the line in a blind test, then be adult enough to publish it even if it contradicts previous claims.


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## CT (Apr 24, 2020)

They're clearly talking out of their arses!


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

John R Wilson said:


> I've always heard good things about Valhalla room. I did end up getting Phoenixverb however as it was on sale at $10 and does appear to do the job quite nicely.
> 
> In regards to ER with wet samples, I've also started to do the same as you. I have been turning off the ER in phoenixverb this evening and just adding a reverb tail to BBCSO samples. It seems to add some clarity to the sound. Spaces 2 was veiling the sound more. Think I'll probably only add some ER within the reverb with the more dry libraries but stick to only adding some reverb tail for libraries such as the BBCSO.


Very interesting, this price ($10) is so close to... FREE! Does PhoenixVerb has any other requirements, i.e. you need to own other iZotope products, or you buy it and you can use it normally in your DAW as a 3rd party plug-in?


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## jcrosby (Apr 25, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Very interesting, this price ($10) is so close to... FREE! Does PhoenixVerb has any other requirements, i.e. you need to own other iZotope products, or you buy it and you can use it normally in your DAW as a 3rd party plug-in?


Nope, no pre-requisite. All you need is an iLok account. It's a single license though if you have more than one ilok or machine.


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Nope, no pre-requisite. All you need is an iLok account. It's a single license though if you have more than one ilok or machine.


Thanks for the reply! Luckily (or not) I have only one main PC for everything (including my music project). And luckily I already have an iLok account (thanks to my love for EW libraries).

But now I may open a new thread about reverbs, because I have many unanswered questions...


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## Dietz (Apr 25, 2020)

I know that I'm late, but I didn't see Verberate Immersive by Acon Digital being mentioned in this thread. That's a little-known, yet great-sounding plug-in I use for surround and 3D audio mixes. (There's a stereo-version too, AFAIK.)

For me (as a self-confessing fan of IR-based halls for orchestral work) this plug-in is as good as it gets when I aim for that certain "enveloping" algorithmic reverb tail.


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## Patryk Scelina (Apr 25, 2020)

Personally I use a lot of VSR24 which is as they say recreation of TC6000


https://relabdevelopment.com/product/vsr-s24/


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## Glagoliath (Apr 25, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> And yet in a blind test they do on camera they contradict a lot of their own previous opinions made in the article you link, and non-blind comparisons made at the beginning of the video.



Of course they are contradicting themselves because of obvious reason: bogus test.

In their second test they didn't have any instrument in higher frequency range which would clearly show them the difference in reverbs (violins, flute, cymbal, trumpet, etc.).


THAT'S WHY they couldn't or anyone else can't tell a difference between reverbs and everything sounded similar.

Did Valhalla Room sounded bright and harsh in their test?
Of course not because they didn't even have instruments in that frequency range.


What's next, testing reverbs by using timpani?




jcrosby said:


> Nothing quite like a group of highly respected professionals willing to put their integrity on the line in a blind test, then be adult enough to publish it even if it contradicts previous claims.




I don't think so, it's:
Nothing quite like Glagoliath debunking another bullshit test of reverbs and someone using bogus test to prove something.


If those highly respected professionals failed to distinguish these two different reverbs (I replicated their settings in Pro-R and Valhalla Room):




and nothing was clearly jumping out, then it's not my fault for those highly respected professionals doing a bogus test of reverbs in front of everyone.

And no, their test DIDN'T make Valhalla Room any better, because it was a bogus test of reverbs.


Edit:

I forgot to add that they didn't even care to set the same predelays, in Pro-R it was set to zero,
in Valhalla Room to 10ms and no, I'm not gonna waste my time on looking at settings set in every single reverb they used and "tested".


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## jcrosby (Apr 25, 2020)

Glagoliath said:


> Of course they are contradicting themselves because of obvious reason: bogus test.
> 
> In their second test they didn't have any instrument in higher frequency range which would clearly show them the difference in reverbs (violins, flute, cymbal, trumpet, etc.).
> 
> ...




But...



Glagoliath said:


> Everything started with this:
> *What Is The Best Reverb For Orchestral Samples?*
> Christian Henson and Head Engineer Jake Jackson talk through the best reverbs to use for orchestral samples and live recordings, with a choice of six solutions that range from $50 to $16,000.
> 
> ...



Maybe something's getting lost in translation here, but it seems like you hold their example as proof of your opinion in post #26. Then refuse to accept the results of their blind listening test in post #32 contradicting your opinion, (and their previous opinion) in post #26.

Fascinatiiing how the authors of the original article have no shame in admitting their opinion changed when blind tested, but this bothers you.

Also fascinating - you _care _that the predelay time is different in VH Room but _don't care _about the other plugin/hardware reverb's settings that aren't VH, (presumptively as a means to dismiss the results). Not to mention you don't care that VH Room is set to chamber where most of the other reverbs are set to hall. (Without realizing that a chamber and hall have different attack characteristics.)

Anyone with some observational or listening skills can see this test was done by matching each reverb timbre as closely as possible by ear, then blind testing to see how well their opinions held up when bias was removed from the equation.

Predicable reaction... Some people just refuse to accept when their own views are challenged, even when challenged by the same sources they previously cite.


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## gamma-ut (Apr 25, 2020)

Glagoliath said:


> Forum's moto?
> 
> 2-3 years ago at KVR forums I also posted those pictures and explained in the most possible polite manner why Valhalla Room is bad and I was welcomed with torches and pitchforks like I was Satan himself by a bunch of clueless idiots who were literally acting this way:
> "Go fuck yourself with your stupid sound libraries (because I posted examples of Valhalla Room applied to strings too so that everyone can hear harshness which Valhalla Room is producing, besides showing pictures why that happens) and go fuck yourself with your little stupid pictures!"



I thought those screenshots and your pleasant demeanour looked familiar. I might as well post this link, I don‘t think much has changed in three years: https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6851366#p6851366

tl;dc - the assertion that real spaces don’t have HF energy is weird, unless you’ve stuffed them full of pillows maybe.


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## Glagoliath (Apr 25, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> But...
> 
> 
> 
> Predicable reaction... Some people just refuse to accept when their own views are challenged, even when challenged by the same sources they previously cite.



I never cared what they said, I was doing my own tests and just explaining what they also detected.
My opinion about Valhalla Room wasn't and it's not based on anyone's opinion but mine, by doing tests on my own.




jcrosby said:


> Maybe something's getting lost in translation here, but it seems like you hold their example as proof of your opinion in post #26. Then refuse to accept the results of their blind listening test in post #32 contradicting your opinion, (and their previous opinion) in post #26.



There's no contradiction whatsoever, it's just you projecting things in your head and misinterpreting everything.

I don't hold their example as proof of anything.
You are missing the entire point that it's me who has the evidence, Spitfire Audio guys just had their opinion based on using their ears.

I have the objective, scientific evidence what they detected with their ears because I'm sampling reverbs, creating IR files and presenting you visual evidence (spectrum view of IR file) what the reverb does.





jcrosby said:


> Amazing how the authors of the original article have no shame in admitting their opinion changed when blind tested.



Almost one year has passed between their "tests" and yes, 
Valhalla Room is still shit reverb when compared to actual good reverbs and yes, their opinion about reverbs is completely irrelevant because they are not the reverb lords of the universe.


----------



## gamma-ut (Apr 25, 2020)

Glagoliath said:


> You are missing the entire point that it's me who has the evidence, Spitfire Audio guys just had their opinion based on using their ears.



Using ears? On audio plugins? Man, that's insane!


----------



## Glagoliath (Apr 25, 2020)

gamma-ut said:


> tl;dc - the assertion that real spaces don’t have HF energy is weird, unless you’ve stuffed them full of pillows maybe.



I wasn't talking about all real spaces, but halls and concert halls and the reason for it is more than obvious because we are the place where people are doing orchestral music and obviously using concert halls presets or creating hall presets.


----------



## John R Wilson (Apr 25, 2020)

Glagoliath said:


> I never cared what they said, I was doing my own tests and just explaining what they also detected.
> My opinion about Valhalla Room wasn't and it's not based on anyone's opinion but mine, by doing tests on my own.
> 
> 
> ...




Many things in music is very subjective. Just because the technicalities or scientific/objective evidence may suggest something is better or worse in regards to a reverb design or plugin doesn't mean that it is a bad reverb plugin or worse than some other plugin. With something like this, qualitative approaches are probably better ways to look at it rather than strictly scientific methods and objective approaches. Using ones ears in determining what is good or bad is often the best way in determining what tools to use, when creating music and when mixing it.


----------



## Glagoliath (Apr 25, 2020)

John R Wilson said:


> Many things in music is very subjective. Just because the technicalities or scientific/objective evidence may suggest something is better or worse in regards to a reverb design or plugin doesn't mean that it is a bad reverb plugin or worse than some other plugin. With something like this, qualitative approaches are probably better ways to look at it rather than strictly scientific methods and objective approaches. Using ones ears in determining what is good or bad is often the best way in determining what tools to use, when creating music and when mixing it.



You are missing the entire point.
A good reverb will do EXACTLY what you want from it to do.

That's WHY I could do this test and basically recreate IR file from East/West Spaces, NY String Hall, by using ears with 2 completely different reverbs:




I even downloaded a demo version of Valhalla Vintage Verb and familiarized with it in 10-15 minutes and went to recreate reverb applied to strings by a friend of mine. I didn't know what he applied, I was just recreating the reverb I was hearing which he applied to my strings.

Two completely different reverbs, Pro-R and Vintage Verb and when you have a good reverb it will do EXACTLY what you want from it to do.
That's the entire point.


WHY people here are using convolution reverbs in the first place? 
Exactly. They want realism. Well, guess what, algorithmic reverb should be able to create realistic reverbs too, THAT'S THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF IT.


----------



## bryla (Apr 25, 2020)

Could you post audio examples of the corresponding pictures?


----------



## gamma-ut (Apr 25, 2020)

Glagoliath said:


> You know what's more insane?
> When morons in 2020 are still using their ears to test reverbs and *not using a single scientific, unbiased approach to test anything*.



So, you've calculated the correlations between those traces as a function of time? I must have missed it, because right now it looks as though you are relying on eyes, which are not all that sensitive to high-frequency visual information.


----------



## el-bo (Apr 25, 2020)

I really like 2C-Audio's B2. Bit of an ugly duckling, but sounds really sweet. Does lush and 'special sauce' out-there stuff, also.


----------



## Ashermusic (Apr 25, 2020)

UAD Plate 140.


----------



## SupremeFist (Apr 25, 2020)

Hi, my hobby is going on teh Internet to "prove" to people that they are wrong to like what they do like. Might seem weird but it makes me happy.


----------



## storyteller (Apr 25, 2020)

This conversation is bonkers.

Choosing a reverb for music is an artistic choice. Pick the one that moves you and that you like the sound of the best.


----------



## gst98 (Apr 25, 2020)

I'm glad I've seen all those graphs. Now I know which music I'm allowed to listen to.


----------



## bryla (Apr 25, 2020)

Glagoliath said:


> You know what's more insane?
> When morons in 2020 are still using their ears to test reverbs and not using a single scientific, unbiased approach to test anything.





Glagoliath said:


>



I'm sorry to point this out but you do know you devaluated your own results with these statements, right?


----------



## whinecellar (Apr 25, 2020)

Some fine options already suggested, but you owe it to yourself to demo 2C Audio’s B2. It’s by far my favorite algo verb in the box. It’s just stunning!


----------



## Dietz (Apr 25, 2020)

Glagoliath said:


> WHY people here are using convolution reverbs in the first place?


Is this a rhetoric question or a serious one? _(... if you you mean to know the answer anyway don't bother to reply, thx.)_


----------



## Dewdman42 (Apr 25, 2020)

whinecellar said:


> Some fine options already suggested, but you owe it to yourself to demo 2C Audio’s B2. It’s by far my favorite algo verb in the box. It’s just stunning!



One thing I've wondered, what is the difference between B2, Aether and Breeze2?


----------



## whinecellar (Apr 25, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> One thing I've wondered, what is the difference between B2, Aether and Breeze2?



Their site details this, but in short, Aether is more of a sound designer’s tool; B2 is their dual engine top-notch verb, and Breeze is just under that as the single-engine version.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 25, 2020)

dual engine. What does that mean?


----------



## Quasar (Apr 25, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> dual engine. What does that mean?


Good question, and I am looking forward to an answer too.


----------



## Billy Palmer (Apr 25, 2020)

el-bo said:


> I really like 2C-Audio's B2. Bit of an ugly duckling, but sounds really sweet. Does lush and 'special sauce' out-there stuff, also.


I like it! Out of interest what do you mean ugly duckling? As in the UI?


----------



## Wunderhorn (Apr 25, 2020)

I think a reverb's quality is also highly dependent on how you use it.
What I like about something like ChromaVerb is that before you use your ears for fine-tuning you also have real time visual feedback - you visualy can adjust the EQ curve and you see the tonal spectrum when you hit a key. It makes it easy and fast to cut out or enhance certain frequncies and I just appreciate the visual feedback in this workflow. It just speeds things up and makes it easier and - IMHO more effective. It is something that I miss on many of the reverb offerings out there.


----------



## SupremeFist (Apr 25, 2020)

Quasar said:


> Good question, and I am looking forward to an answer too.


Dual engines are twice as good as one engine, obviously. That's just maths.


----------



## el-bo (Apr 25, 2020)

William Palmer said:


> I like it! Out of interest what do you mean ugly duckling? As in the UI?



Yes! The GUI. Would definitely benefit from looking more like the latest 'Breeze'. I'm sure it's in the pipeline


----------



## el-bo (Apr 25, 2020)

Wunderhorn said:


> I think a reverb's quality is also highly dependent on how you use it.
> What I like about something like ChromaVerb is that before you use your ears for fine-tuning you also have real time visual feedback - you visualy can adjust the EQ curve and you see the tonal spectrum when you hit a key. It makes it easy and fast to cut out or enhance certain frequncies and I just appreciate the visual feedback in this workflow. It just speeds things up and makes it easier and - IMHO more effective. It is something that I miss on many of the reverb offerings out there.



The colour-burst/waterfall display is very pretty, and very useful


----------



## jcrosby (Apr 25, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Hi, my hobby is going on teh Internet to "prove" to people that they are wrong to like what they do like. Might seem weird but it makes me happy.


Isn't that why the internet exists?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 25, 2020)

Dietz said:


> I see that I'm late, but I didn't see Verberate Immersive by Acon Digital being mentioned in this thread. That's a little-known, yet great-sounding plug-in I use for surround and 3D audio mixes. (There's a stereo-version too, AFAIK.)
> 
> For me (as a self-confessing fan of IR-based halls for orchestral work) this plug-in is as good as it gets when I aim for that certain "enveloping" algorithmic reverb tail.



I just downloaded Acon's free reverb, which is intended as a demo (no adjustments).

Wow. It really is nice. The space illusion (at least in stereo) isn't as realistic as a convolution reverb running a good program, but whew - that sound is just gorgeous.


----------



## jcrosby (Apr 25, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I just downloaded Acon's free reverb, which is intended as a demo (no adjustments).
> 
> Wow. It really is nice. The space illusion (at least in stereo) isn't as realistic as a convolution reverb running a good program, but whew - that sound is just gorgeous.


Acon's reverb is also excellent. The Vivid Hall is gorgeous. I would have mentioned it if I didn't have too many damn reverbs to remember all of them.


----------



## Christian64 (Apr 26, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Nimbus has some more EQ and shaping than Phoenix, in terms of what the reverb acts on, plus Warp adds compression and saturation. You can do those things with separate plugins - the downside is that's more complex than having it all in one tool, but the upside is you can pick the tools for those things you love and are already familiar with. Phoenix for $10 is a fantastic value.


Hi,
Do Phoenix(and Exponentiel Audio products) require a physical USB dongle to be activated?
Thanks


----------



## doctoremmet (Apr 26, 2020)

Christian64 said:


> Do Phoenix(and Exponentiel Audio products) require a physical USB dongle to be activated?


No they don’t.


----------



## dgburns (Apr 26, 2020)

whinecellar said:


> Some fine options already suggested, but you owe it to yourself to demo 2C Audio’s B2. It’s by far my favorite algo verb in the box. It’s just stunning!



To follow through a bit more on what Jim is saying. I find the gui for B2 a bit difficult, because the parameters are not quite what you’re going to find on other verbs. But you are given tools that can do what any dual engine verb can do. (early/late, series or parallel etc)
I’ve spent some time with this plugin, but I’ve gotten the best results when I port over a preset from another source, like for instance, when I want to re-create a favourite setting in a lexicon. I’ve discovered that the algo’s are not exactly the same, but you can get into the general territory. The modulation, swirl and diffusion matrix are not implemented the same way, but I’ve been able to get really really close. Add to this the distortion you can add, which is essential to roughing up the verb to get closer to the old lexicon sound.
I find the old lexicon boxes seem to do longer tails so effortlessly, much of the way they present the controls don’t allow for a bad reverb, the wisdom of those earlier engineers.
B2 has a denseness to it if you want, but you can lighten up on that and brighten it up and it sits well in the mix. I use this reverb for vocals, and for special fx and really long tail verb effects because it can recreate tails that stay intact and decay well, better then most I’ve heard, which accounts for the cpu hit you’re going to take when using it.

Valhalla room is a decent verb, it’s one of those that sounds a bit effecty at its worst, you can hear the delay lines and modulation which can bring attention to themselves in the wrong way when set wrong. I actually like using it on orchestral sources as a final subtle tail. It always wants to tail out long, but I would not use this on a highlighted soli source. Still, the less dense algo’s are really fun, especially on synths. This was concieved to be in the lexicon style, but it’s clear it has i’s own sound. It’s light on cpu which makes it a good alternative. Pretty sure I saw this on a JXL cubase template, so anyone using it is in good company, fwiw.

LPX did a great job with chromaverb, still discovering uses for it.

It’s a great time for ITB reverbs.


----------



## whinecellar (Apr 26, 2020)

Yeah, Chromaverb is capable of some incredible results too if you’re a Logic user... shockingly good once you get to know it!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 26, 2020)

whinecellar said:


> Yeah, Chromaverb is capable of some incredible results too if you’re a Logic user... shockingly good once you get to know it!



Yeah, I was surprised at how good it is.

But download that Acon Digital reverb and compare the sound if you run through something buzzy - like a thick, sawtoothy synth program or some loud brass.


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## Ásta Jónsdóttir (Apr 26, 2020)

I have had a lot of luck with these in different situations and layered combinations on voice, piano, strings and guitar:​​Eventide Blackhole​Exponential Audio R4 & Nimbus​Valhalla Vintage Verb, Shimmer & Delay​Zynaptiq Adaptiverb​Soundtoys Little Plate​PSP 2445​​I'm curious about Fabfilter Pro-R and would like to one day add it to the family​


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## Glagoliath (Apr 26, 2020)

bryla said:


> I'm sorry to point this out but you do know you devaluated your own results with these statements, right?



Are you insane or something? Are those results completely different or similar?
Do you know what spectrum view is at all?
You do know that when you are comparing audio files (which was me comparing results of reverbs as IR files) that in spectrum view analyzing them works as comparing fingerprints or hand writings?

It's not just using your ears, but seeing visually results does something works properly, as you want it to do or not and having a visual evidence how something works.

If I used some shitty reverbs, I wouldn't be able to get close to the original reverb (NY String Hall from East/West Spaces), to replicate it and that's the ENTIRE POINT.


----------



## whinecellar (Apr 26, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Yeah, I was surprised at how good it is.
> 
> But download that Acon Digital reverb and compare the sound if you run through something buzzy - like a thick, sawtoothy synth program or some loud brass.



OK Nick, but if I have to add ONE MORE REVERB to my arsenal because of your suggestion, I'm sending you a bill.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 26, 2020)

whinecellar said:


> because of your suggestion



Blame Dietz, not me. 

I haven't used that reverb in a mix, but my reaction is the same one I had to the Dynacord reverb that came out in the '90s - the tail is just... I don't know what the adjective is, but it's just free of anything bad. Clean and smooth without sounding sterile, I guess.

Try the free version. You can't adjust anything, most importantly the tail, but I might even use the plate or room as-is.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 26, 2020)

Glagoliath said:


> Are you insane or something?



For heaven's sake, this is a discussion about freaking *reverbs*. Tens of thousands of people are dying of a horrible virus; these are artificial spaces we use for music.

This isn't the time or subject to be getting into knock-down drag-outs over.


----------



## bryla (Apr 26, 2020)

Glagoliath said:


> Are you insane or something? Are those results completely different or similar?
> Do you know what spectrum view is at all?
> You do know that when you are comparing audio files (which was me comparing results of reverbs as IR files) that in spectrum view analyzing them works as comparing fingerprints or hand writings?
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but since you don't have audio files to accompany you are asking _us_ to trust _your ears _(ears you have said should not be used to judge). If you can't see this paradox then I don't see why there still is any discussion about it. I'm out.


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## MichaelVakili (Apr 26, 2020)

I personally use mostly Valhalla Vintage verb, Fabfilter, Eventide's Blackhole, Tr5 Hall + inverse verb and my newest one is Raum - which ...is something really unique, but I can't describe what it makes it so appealing to my ears


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## CT (Apr 26, 2020)

Ásta Jónsdóttir said:


> Valhalla ... Delay



This is really one of the best plugins of any type that I've come across. Can't ever miss an opportunity to talk it up!


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## Glagoliath (Apr 26, 2020)

bryla said:


> I'm sorry but since you don't have audio files to accompany you are asking _us_ to trust _your ears _(ears you have said should not be used to judge).



YOU SEE?!

He's LITERALLY asking for audio files while I posted pictures and he's saying that I was asking from someone to trust my ears, while I posted pictures.

These people DON'T EVEN KNOW what spectrum view and what spectrogram is.
They have no clue *WHATSOEVER* what am I even showing to them and they keep arguing with me.

They ARE NOT asking me what EXACTLY is on those pictures and they don't have a clue what I was showing to them the whole time and they keep arguing with me and "proving me wrong".

and he's ending with this:



bryla said:


> If you can't see this paradox then I don't see why there still is any discussion about it. I'm out.


this person right here *DOESN'T KNOW* that when you are comparing audio files as spectrograms, that it's like comparing fingerprints.
It means that if you have 3 different reverbs and if their results look quite similar in spectrum view that they will give you quite similar reverb.

Here are the settings:



and their results in a spectrum view.

I'm literally showing them EVERYTHING and being transparent because EVERYONE can do those tests on their own.

He wasn't even asking for reverb settings, he's asking for audio files.

It's like a scientist arguing with a flat earther. Literally.

Spectrum view is saying that Vintage Verb will be brighter above C6 note and that corresponding frequency range. Knock yourselves out.


----------



## Jaap (Apr 26, 2020)

Chilldown man... 

@bryla is a good and solid professional with a good track record and maybe you ( @Glagoliath ) have the same, but at the moment you are an anonymous poster with quite an attitude and in my opinion a very insulting way of trying to convince your point of view.


----------



## gamma-ut (Apr 27, 2020)

Glagoliath said:


> this person right here *DOESN'T KNOW* that when you are comparing audio files as spectrograms, that it's like comparing fingerprints.



You're not comparing fingerprints. You're comparing spectrum plots of fingerprints – which is something that's thrown away a lot of the information. In the case of an amplitude spectrogram, it happens to be the phase information, which in the context of a reverb (a stack of regular and phase delays) happens to be more than a little important.


----------



## shomynik (Apr 27, 2020)

@Glagoliath You are just embarrassing yourself man. If you are so inclined to get to the truth, listening to what other pros have to say and actually testing it thoroughly by listening would serve you much better then settling with the small information that spectrogram gives you.

You can't replicate a real room (IR) with an algo verb (post your audio examples and I'm sure you will get a great feedback in how they differ, and you might actually learn something...not sure if that's your goal here...). Real reverberation is much denser than what's possible with algos. IRs translate that density very well, it contains more info about the space, it's defined in more detail, and that's why we love them and use them despite their flaws. Plus, every real room have it's own imperfections in how different freqs reflect and how they decay - that's what gives a room it's character. Again, IRs translate that great. Pro-R is the only algo verb that does that as far as I know, but it still doesn't sound even nearly convincing comparing to a convolution.

Now, because of the flaws of the convolution, we love algos as well. That's why we use both depending on what we are trying to achieve...using our ears... to make those decisions


----------



## Consona (Apr 27, 2020)

When I was comparing Valhalla reverbs, Room did not sound as good as Vintage or Plate to me, for some reason. In the end I bought VVV and I use it on everything even though I have/had much more expensive algo and convo reverbs (sold those where resell was possible).

Then Lexicon MPX was on sale for $30, it makes a great combo with VVV, so for $80 I have all my reverb needs covered.


----------



## Dietz (Apr 27, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> [...] reaction is the same one I had to the Dynacord reverb that came out in the '90s [...]


The DRP-20? Funny you say that - I always thought that I was the only one who really liked that rare machine!  My description back then was, "it just gently adds some air to the source".


----------



## Glagoliath (Apr 27, 2020)

gamma-ut said:


> You're not comparing fingerprints.



Yes I am.



gamma-ut said:


> You're comparing spectrum plots of fingerprints – which is something that's thrown away a lot of the information. In the case of an amplitude spectrogram, it happens to be the phase information, which in the context of a reverb (a stack of regular and phase delays) happens to be more than a little important.




Now, you want to act smart and if you want to act smart then, buddy, it's time to show me your knowledge with a little experiment which YOU will do for ALL OF US:


You will take attached brown noise sample, make it around 3-4 seconds long and you will EQ it by doing a high pass to around 500 Hz and then you will fade it out:


Then you will export it as .wav file and upload it here so that EVERYONE can test it in their convolution reverbs how that will sound.



This is how it looks visually:



and I say that it will sound like a warm, hall reverb.

As a reference, this is 2C Audio Breeze preset "Your Strings":



Eagerly waiting for you to upload that sample and that people can test it.

If that thing starts to sound like a hall reverb, then I know what I'm talking and you don't.
Upload the sample.
Just do it.




Jaap said:


> Chilldown man...
> @bryla is a good and solid professional with a good track record and maybe you ( @Glagoliath ) have the same, but at the moment you are an anonymous poster with quite an attitude and in my opinion a very insulting way of trying to convince your point of view.




I'm literally not even reading names of people who are replying to me and to whom I'm replying.
I literally don't care, I'm just replying to what someone said and you can be Smith556 or Bimbo43534 or Arnold Schwarzenschnicl, I don't care.


----------



## gamma-ut (Apr 27, 2020)

Just to be clear, your argument is that a high-passed brown-noise sample with a long fade is equivalent to a typical hall reverb?


----------



## gamma-ut (Apr 27, 2020)

I just want to know why I have to indulge in some pointless busywork when the answer to "what does high-passed brown noise sound like?" is obvious.


----------



## wilifordmusic (Apr 27, 2020)

brown noise? are you guys talking about farts?


----------



## gamma-ut (Apr 27, 2020)

wilifordmusic said:


> brown noise? are you guys talking about farts?



Brown noise is the hall reverb convolution of the brown note.


----------



## doctoremmet (Apr 27, 2020)

Glagoliath said:


> if you want to act smart then, buddy


Dude, we get it. You’re way smarter than all of us. We’re all morons. Because we use our ears and have souls and behave like actual erratic human beings with subjective opinions, disagreeing with each other about almost everything and ultimately acting in a non-predictable non-scientific manner. We get it!

Now if you’ll excuse me, I want to load up my favorite Soundgarden album in my spectral analysis software, so I can enjoy the pictures of some of the brown reverb tails that are on there, safe in the knowledge that ANY and ALL of those reverbs could have been crafted by you, because you are the Reverb Master of the Universe that rules over all of us dumb morons. And as soon as I see a yellow tail, I shall say to myself: that’s one of those Valhalla presets that I used to love when I was still ignorant and hadn’t been blessed by the loving attention of the Reverb Master of the Universe.

Thanks again. Anyone want to buy some second hand ears by the way? I don’t need them anymore but I’ve been looking for a better Spectral Analysis tool lately.


----------



## jcrosby (Apr 27, 2020)

Glagoliath said:


> Yes I am.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Alright then. So here's a link to a test of Valhalla Room compared to various other hall reverbs:

*VI-C Reverb Comparison*


----------



## MauroPantin (Apr 27, 2020)

I normally use Spaces and convo verbs these days, but I am particularly fond of an algo reverb called OrilRiver. I'm not sure of the quality measured as it is in this thread's previous posts and ongoing discussion. Sometimes these kinds of exchanges bring me back to the "True Bypass" discussion days of guitar pedals, I'm not really sure how audible these claims are under any situation that is not a perfect set up of audiophile equipment. But anyway, all I can tell you is that OrilRiver is very versatile (or at least I'm very used to it) and it is also free, so there's no harm in trying it out.


----------



## doctoremmet (Apr 27, 2020)

Glagoliath said:


> So, who is embarrassing himself here?


Oh great lord of the Reverb Church. It is obvious that we are just talking out of our asses. We cannot prove or evidence ANYTHING and even worse, we don’t WANT to. What we do want however is to have a nice chat about stuff that obviously makes you mad. So why don’t you just let us do what we do best, i.e. talking out of our asses about unevidenced and obviously WRONG information? You see: we enjoy doing that. And we will keep doing it, whether you keep acting like a whining todler that wants an ice cream from his mummy or not. So my guess is, you are a smart guy that knows a lot, but obviously our behavior is upsetting you and makes you mad. Why don’t you found another forum and curate it with stuff and content that is NOT WRONG and only allow people on there that have passed the Reverb Master of the Universe Black Belt examination, involving loads and loads of yellow and brown visual thingies that us mere mortals are too dumb to understand? I don’t understand why you are still trying to convince people that are obviously way too stupid to even mingle with you, let alone talk about reverb on your Godlike level? I’d leave this bunch of morons alone, and move on. Cheers!


----------



## SupremeFist (Apr 27, 2020)

Is this a good time to say that reverbs all sound basically the same and any commercially available reverb will be fine?


----------



## axb312 (Apr 27, 2020)

A poll would be useful here I think....

I also agree that Valhalla room has some nasty high end hiss....


----------



## Mike Greene (Apr 27, 2020)

I had asked Glagoliath to ease up with the battle tone, but since that doesn't seem to have worked, I'm giving him a timeout for a few days.

I also deleted a number of posts. In fairness, I deleted some which were cool (and in sone cases, pretty funny), but it wouldn't be fair to leave one side of the argument remaining. Thanks for your understanding on this.


----------



## jtnyc (Apr 27, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> I had asked Glagoliath to ease up with the battle tone, but since that doesn't seem to have worked, I'm giving him a timeout for a few days.
> 
> I also deleted a number of posts. In fairness, I deleted some which were cool (and in sone cases, pretty funny), but it wouldn't be fair to leave one side of the argument remaining. Thanks for your understanding on this.



Thank you very much Mike.


----------



## doctoremmet (Apr 27, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> I had asked Glagoliath to ease up with the battle tone, but since that doesn't seem to have worked, I'm giving him a timeout for a few days.
> 
> I also deleted a number of posts. In fairness, I deleted some which were cool (and in sone cases, pretty funny), but it wouldn't be fair to leave one side of the argument remaining. Thanks for your understanding on this.


Thanks. Feel free to delete all my contributions here - not my best work admittedly but I got fed up. I’ll settle down now, and listen to some Rick Astley.


----------



## dgburns (Apr 27, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Is this a good time to say that reverbs all sound basically the same and any commercially available reverb will be fine?



Yes, but it is so easy to fall victim to ‘the quest for the best’. Hunting and gathering is such a tempting endevour. Staying current, keeping up to date, never resting on the tried and true. Sometimes it’s actually ok to just use what you already have. But some reverbs offer a different sound. Lexicons are great because they actually can be like an instrument in and of themselves.

Maybe, end of the day, it’s not going to make or break anything if you use reverb A over B.

But I’d like to think it makes me happy when I feel I’m using the best based on everything at my disposal to figure out. And I’m just plain obsessed with sound that way.

But it’s really important to respect others opinion on the subject. Funny thing is, those with deep knowledge really have less reason to prove it to others.


----------



## SupremeFist (Apr 27, 2020)

dgburns said:


> But I’d like to think it makes me happy when I feel I’m using the best based on everything at my disposal to figure out. And I’m just plain obsessed with sound that way.


Oh yes for sure, one can be inspired in a new way by a tool one particularly likes even if it is not "objectively" better. This is why, as a guitarist, I need so many guitars.


----------



## Geomir (Apr 27, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Is this a good time to say that reverbs all sound basically the same and any commercially available reverb will be fine?


Did you mean this literally or sarcastically?


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## Ashermusic (Apr 27, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Is this a good time to say that reverbs all sound basically the same and any commercially available reverb will be fine?



it is a good time to say it, but I disagree with the first half of the statement. For example, while they all sound good to me, plates in the UAD EMT Plate 140 sounds different to me than the Soundtoys Little Plate, a plate in Chromaverb or PSP 2445.

Now, do they all sound good? Yes. Could I live with any one of them if the others were taken away from me? Yes.


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## SupremeFist (Apr 27, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> it is a good time to say it, but I disagree with the first half of the statement. For example, while they all sound good to me, plates in the UAD EMT Plate 140 sounds different to me than the Soundtoys Little Plate, a plate in Chromaverb or PSP 2445.
> 
> Now, do they all sound good? Yes. Could I live with any one of them if the others were taken away from me? Yes.


I will claim that my "basically" covers these differences.


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## Ashermusic (Apr 27, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> I will claim that my "basically" covers these differences.



OK, that works then for me.


----------



## whinecellar (Apr 27, 2020)

To twist it up a bit, if anyone's gotten into the pedal craze, I gotta say that the Specular Tempus has become one of my favorite verbs of all time. Of any kind. Period.

Seriously, I built a little outboard loop just for that, a Roland (Boss) reissue of the Dimension D chorus (I think it's called the DC-2W) for my analog synths and Yamaha DX synths, etc. For that dreamy, soundscape thing, it's freaking insane. Here's a little quick n' dirty comparison between Valhalla Shimmer, the Tempus, and Chromaverb for that sort of thing:



Anyway, good times for reverb lovers!


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## whinecellar (Apr 27, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Yeah, I was surprised at how good it is.
> 
> But download that Acon Digital reverb and compare the sound if you run through something buzzy - like a thick, sawtoothy synth program or some loud brass.



Dang it Nick, I'm out another $99. You're right about the Acon reverb. Holy smokes, that might be one of the smoothest and most natural-sounding reverbs I've ever heard in the box. I just did my usual run through of all my go-to's with piano, pizz and staccato strings, brass, etc., and the Acon really does something special. Thanks for the tip - great find! Just when I think I can't possibly use another reverb...


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## ghandizilla (Apr 27, 2020)

I'm quite happy with VSS3. It sounds a bit metallic but it totally nails that 80s-90s tail. I love it so much that I finally dropped Altiverb to use VSS3 everywhere (still awing at the CPU drop since I did that).

I don't own 2CAudio Breeze, but everything I heard from it sounds awesome. It has this "distance" fader that Alan Meyerson uses. It's CPU-light. And every user demo I've heard of it sounds great.

There are a lot of good opinions about Relab VSR-24 too, but there are less user demos around there for VSR-24 to get an idea of how it really sounds.

If you're on a budget, Valhalla Room is good (but not as good as VSS3).


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## Dietz (Apr 27, 2020)

whinecellar said:


> Thanks for the tip - great find! Just when I think I can't possibly use another reverb...


You're welcome! And just to avoid misunderstandings - my only connection to Acon Digital is that I happen to really like their reverb. 8-)


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## Dietz (Apr 27, 2020)

ghandizilla said:


> not as good as VSS3


You know what's really funny? There where times when seasoned engineers gave you strange looks when you told them that you liked t.c.'s reverbs ... 

_Times-are-a-chaaaaanging_ ...


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## ghandizilla (Apr 27, 2020)

Dietz said:


> You know what's really funny? There where times when seasoned engineers gave you strange looks when you told them that you liked t.c.'s reverbs ...
> 
> _Times-are-a-chaaaaanging_ ...



I admit it was an overstatement on my part. I love the vintage feel of VSS3, but it doesn't mean it's inherently superior. My apologies.


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## cuttime (Apr 27, 2020)

Now that things have quieted down a bit, may I humbly put in a plug (in my total ignorance and lack of knowledge) for Dragonfly?





Dragonfly Reverb - Very Nice Free Reverb


I've been playing with this and think it's really great, especially for vocals, playing with the early reflections and delay. https://github.com/michaelwillis/dragonfly-reverb




vi-control.net


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 27, 2020)

Dietz said:


> You're welcome! And just to avoid misunderstandings - my only connection to Acon Digital is that I happen to really like their reverb. 8-)



I haven't wanted to mention it yet because I think maybe its only available as part of various bundles, but VSL Miracle works particularly well with MirPro to add the tails. I certainly like it. Dietz, how would you compare Acon with Miracle?


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## MartinH. (Apr 27, 2020)

Glagoliath said:


> Here are the settings:
> 
> 
> and their results in a spectrum view.




I'm a more visually oriented person myself, so I found your approach to analyzing IRs visually quite interesting. Just from looking at the pictures though, it wasn't always clear to me if the spectrum views were supposed to be an evidence for equivalence or differences, because to me - as a visually oriented person - I could see differences in all that I looked at.

In Photoshop one cool way to isolate small differences between two pictures is to put one as a layer in "difference" blend mode on top of the other. If they align perfectly, all the identical pixels turn black, and all the differences are non-black. You can then place adjustment layers on top of them to boost the brightness to get the differences into a visible viewing range if they are too subtle to see. You'll hit some limitations with the 8bit per channel bit depth of screenshots though, and to me the spectrum views that you posted didn't look like they can be aligned "pixel-perfect" in a way that would make this a viable method of comparison. 

Also it's not clear to me how (or if at all) you are visualizing the stereo imaging aspects of reverbs.
Would it be possible and practical to separate IRs into mid/side channels and visualize them separately? Have you experimented with that? 



Based on what I've seen mixing pros do, I'm pretty sure though that their ears are far more sensitive to hear subtle differences, than feasibly can be shown and tweaked with visualization tools. So as much as I understand your search for an objective ground-truth for these comparisons, I'm inclined to believe the people who preach "trust your ears". Someone on this forum was even able to pick out a bricasti in a blind reverb comparison, which blew my mind.


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## Scamper (Apr 27, 2020)

cuttime said:


> Now that things have quieted down a bit, may I humbly put in a plug (in my total ignorance and lack of knowledge) for Dragonfly?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've heard about this, but didn't check it out yet. So, I did a quick comparison to other free reverb plugins like Kjaerhus Classic Reverb and Magnus Ambience.
While Kjaerhus Reverb also sounds alright to me, I like Dragonfly the most out of them.

It won't replace my regular reverb, but it's great to have good free options such as this with plenty controls and a nice sound.


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## Dietz (Apr 28, 2020)

ghandizilla said:


> I admit it was an overstatement on my part. I love the vintage feel of VSS3, but it doesn't mean it's inherently superior. My apologies.


:-D No need to apologise - I have always been amongst the avid users of t.c.electronic gear. Especially their HD reverbs and the MD3/MD4 algorithms are still the benchmark. Much of the praise Lexicon reverbs received over the years was pure folklore, if you ask me.


----------



## Dietz (Apr 28, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> I haven't wanted to mention it yet because I think maybe its only available as part of various bundles, but VSL Miracle works particularly well with MirPro to add the tails. I certainly like it. Dietz, how would you compare Acon with Miracle?


They are hard to compare. Acon's Verberate has to be seen as full-fledged reverb engine, with ERs and all, while MIRacle explicitly is an add-on to MIR Pro, following a much-lauded "hybrid" reverb approach. The capabilities of the latter are meant to fill the obvious gaps of linear IRs (modulation, decorrelation, "tail-only").


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## Dietz (Apr 28, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> [...] ears are far more sensitive to hear subtle differences, than feasibly can be shown and tweaked with visualization tools.


This ^^^^^^^! Still, a sonogram is a mighty tool. It can help you to overcome the simple fact that you can't hear "backwards" (so to speak), while you can easily grasp some problems in 5 minutes of audio at a single glance visually.


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## chrisr (Apr 28, 2020)

MauroPantin said:


> but I am particularly fond of an algo reverb called OrilRiver.



Yep, I enjoy that also. Always meaning to see if I can find out more specifics about the ER and Rev 'variations', but never get around to it.


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## Rob (Apr 28, 2020)

Agree on the Acon Verberate2, use it often... and though I have the native Lexicon PCM I still use the mpx as often. Not the "real" kind of reverb but the "beautify" kind...


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## Vin (Apr 28, 2020)

shomynik said:


> You can't replicate a real room (IR) with an algo verb (post your audio examples and I'm sure you will get a great feedback in how they differ, and you might actually learn something...not sure if that's your goal here...). Real reverberation is much denser than what's possible with algos. IRs translate that density very well, it contains more info about the space, it's defined in more detail, and that's why we love them and use them despite their flaws. Plus, every real room have it's own imperfections in how different freqs reflect and how they decay - that's what gives a room it's character. Again, IRs translate that great. Pro-R is the only algo verb that does that as far as I know, but it still doesn't sound even nearly convincing comparing to a convolution.



Plugins, yes...however, Quantec Yardstick (and QRS) replicates the room sound perfectly without the IRs. But they are still quite expensive and there aren't plugin versions...yet


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## MauroPantin (Apr 28, 2020)

chrisr said:


> Yep, I enjoy that also. Always meaning to see if I can find out more specifics about the ER and Rev 'variations', but never get around to it.



The only info I've been able to find in the manual is that reverb variations 1 and 5 are ideal for small spaces, 2 and 4 for medium spaces, and 3 is for large spaces. Regarding ERs you have to audition them individually, there is no information on them. I change the ER parameter depending on the group of instruments I am using the verb in. When you audition them on their own the positioning is a bit more obvious.


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## el-bo (Apr 28, 2020)

whinecellar said:


> Their site details this, but in short, Aether is more of a sound designer’s tool; B2 is their dual engine top-notch verb, and Breeze is just under that as the single-engine version.



Of course, there is a lot of crossover. B2 is also a sound-design beast. It already comes with a great 'SPECIAL EFFECTS' section, and they sell an 'IMAGINATION' expansion which has many more presets. e.g Granular, Hybrid, filtered etc.


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## Dietz (Apr 28, 2020)

Vin said:


> Plugins, yes...however, Quantec Yardstick (and QRS) replicates the room sound perfectly without the IRs.


That's right - but only in principle. In reality, the result is always a very generic room and only very rarely something beautiful 8-) ... I should know, because I'm owning an original QRS (in the rack on the left hand side):


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## KEM (Apr 29, 2020)

First reply is all that needs to be said...


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## Consona (Apr 29, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Is this a good time to say that reverbs all sound basically the same and any commercially available reverb will be fine?


Wouldn't go that far. Like I've said, I compared all Valhalla stuff and Room did not sound as good as Vintage or Plate to me. Also, while all reverbs I have are usable, I can get very different results with every one of them, so I can't agree with the sentiment that they all sound the same.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 29, 2020)

My two favorites are Audiority Xenoverb (algo in the Valhalla Shimmers class of verbs) and LiquidSonics’ Seventh Heaven (the non-pro variant, which is a convolution reverb that has some algo aspects, in terms of the parameters one is able to tweak). I also have PhoenixVerb but for me at least that one has a much steeper learning curve for some reason.... So although I do believe that ultimately some of these plugins MAY all be capable of great results, or maybe even very comparable results, there do seem to exist certain differences in UI, user friendliness or maybe better put: “personal fit” for each use case. It’s all psychology ultimately of course


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## Geomir (Apr 29, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> My two favorites are Audiority Xenoverb (algo in the Valhalla Shimmers class of verbs) and LiquidSonics’ Seventh Heaven (the non-pro variant, which is a convolution reverb that has some algo aspects, in terms of the parameters one is able to tweak). I also have PhoenixVerb but for me at least that one has a much steeper learning curve for some reason.... So although I do believe that ultimately some of these plugins MAY all be capable of great results, or maybe even very comparable results, there do seem to exist certain differences in UI, user friendliness or maybe better put: “personal fit” for each use case. It’s all psychology ultimately of course


Well said! Btw of all the plugins you mentioned I think that 7th Heaven has such a beautiful looking modern interface, not so common to see in an non-expensive reverb plugin! And in the end everything is about psychology (as you said)! Whatever inspires us the best is the best "personal fit" for each one of us!


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## doctoremmet (Apr 29, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Whatever inspires us the best is the best "personal fit" for each one of us!


We can agree on that. I recently watched @Cory Pelizzari ’s YouTube videos on Seventh Heaven (which made it an insta-buy for me, I tend to agree a lot with him / learn a lot from him and value his experience and opinions) and the more general one on how to place instruments in “spaces”. Very helpful stuff! If you haven’t caught those, please have a look, I highly recommend them. Seventh Heaven halls DO sound gorgeous and yes, I also like the UI. It’s like having that Bricasti M7 after all haha.


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## Geomir (Apr 29, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> We can agree on that. I recently watched @Cory Pelizzari ’s YouTube videos on Seventh Heaven (which made it an insta-buy for me, I tend to agree a lot with him / learn a lot from him and value his experience and opinions) and the more general one on how to place instruments in “spaces”. Very helpful stuff! If you haven’t caught those, please have a look, I highly recommend them. Seventh Heaven halls DO sound gorgeous and yes, I also like the UI. It’s like having that Bricasti M7 after all haha.


This will for sure be my next reverb purchase! And I do NOT mean the real one (it can cost a few thousands I think)! 

Yesterday I managed to buy 2 algo reverbs only $20 (each one $10)! XenoVerb and PhoneixVerb. I could not resist the price for both of them! But yes my first convo reverb will be 7th Heaven (the lite version).

I watched Cory's review, amazing as always! And dangerous! Whatever he reviews, he does it so well, that I want to buy it! His reviews are usually better even than the official ones! He can make libraries sound better even than the ones that created them! Freaking amazing!


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## doctoremmet (Apr 29, 2020)

Geomir said:


> I managed to buy 2 algo reverbs only $20 (each one $10)! XenoVerb and PhoneixVerb


Haha, funny. I did the same - only two weeks before you. Both deals are excellent value, although (as said before) I have found that the XenoVerb plugin directly speaks to me and the Phoenix one (although it gets a lot of praise in this thread) is way more difficult to get instantly gratifying results with for me. And then I got Seventh Heaven (non-pro) and I must say: I am totally blown away by it. And yes, @Cory Pelizzari is now blacklisted by my wife since we cannot even buy any toiletpaper anymore, such is his disastrous impact on our home budget.

BTW, I used both XenoVerb and Seventh Heaven on a demo I recorded yesterday. Maybe you'd like to listen to it in order to hear what can happen when those plugins fall into the hands of a total amateur who doesn't have the first clue about mixing, EQ'ing and all that stuff. In other words: if there's ANYTHING at all that you like about the recording, it MUST be those new reverbs haha. I posted it here: https://vi-control.net/community/th...o-library-natural-and-soft.92572/post-4547089


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## Geomir (Apr 29, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Haha, funny. I did the same - only two weeks before you. Both deals are excellent value, although (as said before) I have found that the XenoVerb plugin directly speaks to me and the Phoenix one (although it gets a lot of praise in this thread) is way more difficult to get instantly gratifying results with for me. And then I got Seventh Heaven (non-pro) and I must say: I am totally blown way by it. And yes, @Cory Pelizzari is now blacklisted by my wife since we cannot even buy any toiletpaper anymore, such is his disastrous impact on our home budget.
> 
> BTW, I used both XenoVerb and Seventh Heaven on a demo I recorded yesterday. Maybe you'd like to listen to it in order to hear what can happens when those plugins fall into the hands of a total amateur who doesn't have the first clue about mixing, EQ'ing and all that stuff. In other words: if there's ANYTHING at all that you like about the recording, it MUST be those new reverbs haha. I posted it here: https://vi-control.net/community/th...o-library-natural-and-soft.92572/post-4547089


I liked the idea of getting phoenix (in that ridiculous price) because it fits more my needs (it's more "light", not so "dense"), which is ideal for natural orchestral instruments. Then I could not resist to Xeno at that price, in case I ever need something more "dreamy" or "haunted"! There some amazing presets in it that allow you to create "atmospheric pads" straight out of organic instruments!

Wow you used both reverbs with a very nice result! Piano is so beautiful with Xeno, and strings and horn also emotional under 7th Heaven! Xeno is excellent for such sounds, but now I see that 7th Heaven can support also classical orchestral instruments. Can you remember what is the lowest price you have ever seen it?


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## doctoremmet (Apr 29, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Can you remember what is the lowest price you have ever seen it?


I did some research but I suspect they hardly do any sales. Maybe that’s just my hope though


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 29, 2020)

I apparently don't like really "thick" reverbs - for instance, I tried Seventh Heaven again and couldn't stomach it. And, like last time, deleted it as soon as I could. Acon Verberate 2 also crosses into that camp for me. I really wanted that one because of the reviews and price, and just didn't like it at all. I also have heard Altiverb quite a bit, and didn't like it for the most part - trying to wrestle with presets to get them to sound how I want when it's clear those spaces weren't meant for it. On the other end of the spectrum for me, if there is a spectrum, is 2C Breeze and even Valhalla Room - way too thin and effected for everyday reverb duties. 

It's good to try as many reverbs as you possibly can so you can learn, at the very least, which ones you DON'T like, as that can help you narrow the field, perhaps, to start learning what you do like.

I just bought Transatlantic Plate. I've never heard any UAD plugins so... whatever. It's vastly better sounding (when going for more natural sound) than 2445, UVI Plate, Aturiia Plate, Little Plate, etc. It plays at another level of quality. And CPU consumption.

My current, most-used reverbs (note - I don't make orchestral)

* R4
* Transatlantic Plate
* Sonsig-A
* Nimbus

My second-tier (e.g., try if specific need or the above aren't quite right)

* VintageVerb
* Shimmer
* Blackhole
* Xenoverb
* Little Plate
* Arturia 140 plate
* Toraverb


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## Dombaeb (Apr 29, 2020)

Geomir said:


> I liked the idea of getting phoenix (in that ridiculous price) because it fits more my needs (it's more "light", not so "dense"), which is ideal for natural orchestral instruments. Then I could not resist to Xeno at that price, in case I ever need something more "dreamy" or "haunted"! There some amazing presets in it that allow you to create "atmospheric pads" straight out of organic instruments!
> 
> Wow you used both reverbs with a very nice result! Piano is so beautiful with Xeno, and strings and horn also emotional under 7th Heaven! Xeno is excellent for such sounds, but now I see that 7th Heaven can support also classical orchestral instruments. Can you remember what is the lowest price you have ever seen it?



In my experience, Liquidsonics do 20-30% sales when he releases new product + Summer Sale and Black Friday sale. So it's 2 (maybe 3) times a year.


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## sostenuto (Apr 29, 2020)

Consona said:


> Wouldn't go that far. Like I've said, I compared all Valhalla stuff and Room did not sound as good as Vintage or Plate to me. Also, while all reverbs I have are usable, I can get very different results with every one of them, so I can't agree with the sentiment that they all sound the same.



Helps to see this. Had VV early on, generous one-time option to switch to Plate. Did so and pondering next Valhalla add. VV seems solid re-buy. THX.


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## Geomir (Apr 29, 2020)

Dombaeb said:


> In my experience, Liquidsonics do 20-30% sales when he releases new product + Summer Sale and Black Friday sale. So it's 2 (maybe 3) times a year.


Cool! Thanks for the info! Summer is actually coming!


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## Geomir (Apr 29, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I apparently don't like really "thick" reverbs - for instance, I tried Seventh Heaven again and couldn't stomach it. And, like last time, deleted it as soon as I could. Acon Verberate 2 also crosses into that camp for me. I really wanted that one because of the reviews and price, and just didn't like it at all. I also have heard Altiverb quite a bit, and didn't like it for the most part - trying to wrestle with presets to get them to sound how I want when it's clear those spaces weren't meant for it. On the other end of the spectrum for me, if there is a spectrum, is 2C Breeze and even Valhalla Room - way too thin and effected for everyday reverb duties.
> 
> It's good to try as many reverbs as you possibly can so you can learn, at the very least, which ones you DON'T like, as that can help you narrow the field, perhaps, to start learning what you do like.
> 
> ...


Is there any possibility that you own more reverb plugins than music libraries?


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 29, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Is there any possibility that you own more reverb plugins than music libraries?



Ha! Maybe getting close. 

I mostly use synths. Some of those reverbs were free or inexpensive. Sort of.

Sadly (ok not really sad), I have a short list of reverbs compared to several people on, say the GS forums. I try not to be a collector of plugins just for the sake of having all of everything. I'll probably end up getting rid of some of those "second tier" verbs if they don't get use. I do like having some "special effect" reverbs on hand even if they're not used but hardly ever. I wouldn't want a $300+ reverb plugin as a special effect!

I imagine that, like orchestral libraries for many on this forum, is that you get something you like, learn it, and end up learning you like something a bit better, so you get that thing, ending up with some extras that hang around. At least with reverb plugins, you can usually re-sell them.


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## storyteller (Apr 29, 2020)

My a-list algorithmic verbs are below. I now use SP-2016 on just about everything when I choose to use algorithmic over IR though.

SP-2016
Phoenix Verb
Blackhole (for special use cases)
MDE-X (for special use cases)


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## Geomir (Apr 29, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Ha! Maybe getting close.
> 
> I mostly use synths. Some of those reverbs were free or inexpensive. Sort of.
> 
> ...


OK fair enough! Maybe the total cost of the sum of all these reverbs you own is much less than just one single orchestral library (that can cost i.e. 600-1000 euros)! So feel free to increase your list of reverbs if it helps you with your music ideas!


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## Emmanuel (Apr 29, 2020)

Geomir said:


> It requires an iLok account, not the dongle!


Lexicon reverb requires the dongle or juste an iLok account ?


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## Geomir (Apr 29, 2020)

Emmanuel said:


> Lexicon reverb requires the dongle or juste an iLok account ?


You mean that one?
https://lexiconpro.com/en/products/pcm-native-reverb-plug-in-bundle


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## sostenuto (Apr 29, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Ha! Maybe getting close.
> 
> I mostly use synths. Some of those reverbs were free or inexpensive. Sort of.
> 
> ...



'Rare Signals' Transatlantic Plate ?? (vs UAD)


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 29, 2020)

sostenuto said:


> 'Rare Signals' Transatlantic Plate ?? (vs UAD)



That's the one. After 2 days of demoing I received an email from Rare to get it for $99 (otherwise I would've continued to wait on it). Honeymoon phase etc etc etc, but, so far, 10-15% mixed in with my synths is like magic, adding depth and life. I do EQ in the plugin to remove most of the frequencies above 2k-3k to make it darker and less metallic. The German plate is my favorite... the US plate is more of an effect than a reverb, to me.


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## Christian64 (Apr 29, 2020)

Emmanuel said:


> Lexicon reverb requires the dongle or juste an iLok account ?


A dongle...


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## Christian64 (Apr 29, 2020)

I encourage you to try the free Oril River reverb. I do not hear any difference with some products that costs 200€...


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## MauroPantin (Apr 29, 2020)

If you set OrilRiver to the large hall setting with a 3.3 second tail and fiddle a bit with the EQ and ER/Rev levels it is very hard to hear a difference with the Warm Large Hall preset in VSS3


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## Emmanuel (Apr 30, 2020)

Geomir said:


> You mean that one?
> https://lexiconpro.com/en/products/pcm-native-reverb-plug-in-bundle


yes


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## Geomir (Apr 30, 2020)

Emmanuel said:


> yes


I am afraid that your question has already been replied. It requires a physical dongle.


----------



## Christian64 (Apr 30, 2020)

MauroPantin said:


> If you set OrilRiver to the large hall setting with a 3.3 second tail and fiddle a bit with the EQ and ER/Rev levels it is very hard to hear a difference with the Warm Large Hall preset in VSS3



Hi,
a little improvisation using OrilReverb with your settings
(LASS Lite: violon 1 (oct), violon 2; viola, cello. Played directly with Divisimate)


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## shomynik (Apr 30, 2020)

Christian64 said:


> Hi,
> a little improvisation using OrilReverb with your settings
> (LASS Lite: violon 1 (oct), violon 2; viola, cello. Played directly with Divisimate)


Haha that sounds actually great.

Funny how we don't complain about these great but crazy cheap or even free products, but then we scream at those who produce music for free or for too little money  

Just a tease...not trying to start any serious discussion here.

peace ☮


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## Zero&One (Apr 30, 2020)

Christian64 said:


> I encourage you to try the free Oril River reverb. I do not hear any difference with some products that costs 200€...



Thanks, I'll check it out.

Does make you wonder, if they slapped a $180 price on this... how much 'better' would it sound.


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## peladio (May 1, 2020)

sostenuto said:


> 'Rare Signals' Transatlantic Plate ?? (vs UAD)



I have never heard of Transatlantic Plate Reverb before this thread, but been demoing it for a few days and wow.. it's another league compared to UAD 140 which I have used for years..


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## shomynik (May 1, 2020)

peladio said:


> I have never heard of Transatlantic Plate Reverb before this thread, but been demoing it for a few days and wow.. it's another league compared to UAD 140 which I have used for years..


Try Ebony by Acustica and Lustrous Plates by Liquid Sonics as well. All these 3 new plate verbs sound amazing. All based on IRs.


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## peladio (May 1, 2020)

shomynik said:


> Try Ebony by Acustica and Lustrous Plates by Liquid Sonics as well. All these 3 new plate verbs sound amazing. All based on IRs.



I own Lustrous Plates as well, great plugin..will check Ebony, thanks..


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## shomynik (May 1, 2020)

peladio said:


> I own Lustrous Plates as well, great plugin..will check Ebony, thanks..



I've set Lustrous Plates as my next purchase after demoing all three. Ebony sounds the best to me, as most "alive", it really sounds amazing, but LP has many more colors so I like that better. Plus Acustica's CPU strain is great for avoiding. Also I liked LP a bit better than Transatlantic Plate, but I bet I will end up with all three as they are really nice.

But one thing is bothering me with latest LS verbs, Ilusion and LP, they somehow sound EQed, like high freqs are added to those IRs which I personally am not finding welcome. They do sound impactfull and "produced" as soon as you put it on, but they have their own sound and it makes me nervous to know destructive processing were applied to IRs...they're not "pure" in my mind.


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## Ashermusic (May 1, 2020)

I must be missing something, I thought this thread is about algorithmic reverbs. If it uses IRs, it’s a convolution or perhaps a hybrid, no?


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## vitocorleone123 (May 1, 2020)

shomynik said:


> I've set Lustrous Plates as my next purchase after demoing all three. Ebony sounds the best to me, as most "alive", it really sounds amazing, but LP has many more colors so I like that better. Plus Acustica's CPU strain is great for avoiding. Also I liked LP a bit better than Transatlantic Plate, but I bet I will end up with all three as they are really nice.
> 
> But one thing is bothering me with latest LS verbs, Ilusion and LP, they somehow sound EQed, like high freqs are added to those IRs which I personally am not finding welcome. They do sound impactfull and "produced" as soon as you put it on, but they have their own sound and it makes me nervous to know destructive processing were applied to IRs...they're not "pure" in my mind.



After 2 days of demo of Transatlantic Plate, Rare Signals sent a code to get it for $99. I wasn't going to spend more than that, let alone $200 on a plate reverb, so never bothered with Lustrous Plates (plus, since I dislike Seventh Heaven, I wasn't sad) or Gold Plate. I don't have UAD, and I'm never going to go the Acoustica route, either. I liked UVI Plate quite a bit, but that was $129. Transatlantic will likely be on every song I manage to finish - and those I don't.

Yes, it uses IRs. That doesn't automatically mean "better" to each person (again, I dislike Seventh Heaven, which is full of IRs).


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## Ashermusic (May 1, 2020)

Here is another very good sounding option:









Little Plate


The lush sound of plate reverb – with a modern twist.



www.soundtoys.com


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## vitocorleone123 (May 1, 2020)

The infinite delay length on Little Plate is interesting. It's definitely a dark plate, good at what it does, and it was free for me, so I can't complain about that. Don't use it much, though.

Side note: pluginboutique has Phoenixverb still/again for $10.


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## Ashermusic (May 2, 2020)

Not a convolution or algorithmic reverb actually, but I just started the 14 day demo for the UAD Capitol Chambers and I fear it may spoil me for other reverbs. Just gorgeous


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## shomynik (May 2, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Not a convolution or algorithmic reverb actually, but I just started the 14 day demo for the UAD Capitol Chambers and I fear it may spoil me for other reverbs. Just gorgeous


It's not a traditional convolution but a hybrid aproach (maybe something similar to what Liquid Sonics is doing). But it is based on IRs so it is indeed a convolution (Liquid Sonics is calling their own engine convolution as well).


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## peladio (May 2, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Not a convolution or algorithmic reverb actually, but I just started the 14 day demo for the UAD Capitol Chambers and I fear it may spoil me for other reverbs. Just gorgeous



Beautiful for any type of vocals..


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## MauroPantin (May 2, 2020)

Snatched PhoenixVerb from plugin boutique at 10 bucks. It was a steal, what a great plugin! Love it.


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## shomynik (May 2, 2020)

I took both phoenix and excalibur. Amazing value.


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## storyteller (May 2, 2020)

If you chain something dirty and gritty like waves RVerb on the same insert as Phoenix, but at a very low mix percentage (let Phoenix do the heavy lifting), you can get some great results. I first heard an example from Blakus of this technique in one of his YouTube videos. After experimenting around, I found RVerb to be the right one for my taste.


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## Laptoprabbit (May 2, 2020)

MauroPantin said:


> Snatched PhoenixVerb from plugin boutique at 10 bucks. It was a steal, what a great plugin! Love it.


 
Just picked up PhoenixVerb from the sale. I had been using Dragonfly Hall before which was fine but PhoenixVerb sounds more natural in way that dragonfly has trouble matching. Great deal!


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## TheSteven (May 2, 2020)

Michael Antrum said:


> Phoenixverb is currently on sale for $10 at Audio Deluxe......



Phoenixverb is also on sale for $9.99 at PluginBoutique.

if you have PhoenixVerb or Excaliber you can pickup R2 for $29.85 at PluginBoutique!


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## shomynik (May 3, 2020)

TheSteven said:


> at PluginBoutique.
> if you have PhoenixVerb or Excaliber you can pickup R2 for $29.85 at PluginBoutique!


Great, thanks. Snatched that one too.

Anyone knows how to registrate these on Izotope site and potentially get discounts on R4 and Nimbus? I was a good boy, resisted tempation for these for a long time - I deserve the reward!


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## onebitboy (May 3, 2020)

shomynik said:


> Anyone knows how to registrate these on Izotope site


You can't. https://support.izotope.com/hc/en-us/articles/360045579913-Upgrades-with-Exponential-Audio-products


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## Ashermusic (May 3, 2020)

peladio said:


> Beautiful for any type of vocals..



It sounds great on Hollywood Strings. Note to self: bills to pay, must not buy, must resist....


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## vitocorleone123 (May 3, 2020)

shomynik said:


> Great, thanks. Snatched that one too.
> 
> Anyone knows how to registrate these on Izotope site and potentially get discounts on R4 and Nimbus? I was a good boy, resisted tempation for these for a long time - I deserve the reward!



If you have those 2 (Phoenix and R2), you don’t really truly need Nimbus and R4, though they are more advanced. Also, to date, as far as I know, there’s been no “upgrade” path directly, but izotope or a vendor like pluginboutique could change that. The upgrade from izotope has been to Music Production Suite.

I’m thinking they might be integrated into Ozone in v10.


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## shomynik (May 3, 2020)

onebitboy said:


> You can't. https://support.izotope.com/hc/en-us/articles/360045579913-Upgrades-with-Exponential-Audio-products


Yeah, found the same myself. Strange that they haven't completely done the integration yet as it past quite some time now.



vitocorleone123 said:


> If you have those 2 (Phoenix and R2), you don’t really truly need Nimbus and R4


Hey, don't kill my vibes here! You're such a meany...


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## vitocorleone123 (May 3, 2020)

shomynik said:


> Yeah, found the same myself. Strange that they haven't completely done the integration yet as it past quite some time now.
> 
> 
> Hey, don't kill my vibes here! You're such a meany...



Hahaha!

i still thought that was better than, "I already have Nimbus and R4! Nyahnyahnyah hahahahaha suckers!"


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## peladio (May 3, 2020)

We live in strange but great times..such a high quality tools are available to us at such affordable prices..hope Mr. Carnes got paid handsomely by iZotope for his great work too..


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## Glagoliath (May 5, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I'm a more visually oriented person myself, so I found your approach to analyzing IRs visually quite interesting. Just from looking at the pictures though, it wasn't always clear to me if the spectrum views were supposed to be an evidence for equivalence or differences, because to me - as a visually oriented person - I could see differences in all that I looked at.
> 
> In Photoshop one cool way to isolate small differences between two pictures is to put one as a layer in "difference" blend mode on top of the other. If they align perfectly, all the identical pixels turn black, and all the differences are non-black. You can then place adjustment layers on top of them to boost the brightness to get the differences into a visible viewing range if they are too subtle to see. You'll hit some limitations with the 8bit per channel bit depth of screenshots though, and to me the spectrum views that you posted didn't look like they can be aligned "pixel-perfect" in a way that would make this a viable method of comparison.



The only thing which your Photoshop skills and a pixel-perfect comparison did was to prove that you don't know what modulation knob does in reverbs, same thing can be said about @shomynik who liked your post which means that he agrees with what you said.


Large Warm Hall preset from VSS3 Native by TC Electronic, sampled 3 times, click on the picture, it's .gif file to see changes:



Is it pixel-perfect?




MartinH. said:


> the spectrum views that you posted didn't look like they can be aligned "pixel-perfect" in a way that would make this a viable method of comparison.



You are claiming that it's not the same reverb because pixels are not aligning perfectly.
It's not just about algorithmic reverbs, you have those changes in IR files by recording 5 IR files from the same spot that you won't get "pixel-perfect" IR files, all 5 of them won't we pixel-perfect when analyzed in spectrum view.
Reverbs don't work in pixel-perfect fashion because they work as noises and you want to compare pixels of noises which is ridiculous.

These 2 reverbs apparently recorded in 2 different spaces, represented with 2 different names and with 2 different pictures were captured in the same space and you can clearly see it:


Comparing pixels of them would be ridiculous because you can see they have identical properties.
Benaroya Hall from Seattle is in Los Angeles, life is full of surprises.


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