# So I tried 70ish tracks with console emulations + decapitator



## G_Erland (Feb 11, 2021)

Didnt play Decapitators or console emulations on their own will play though, so I have work-arounds, but it just had me wondering: what specs would you need for, say, 100 tracks - console emulation, something like decapitator + utilities + reverbs? I have a Windows machine about three years old, 64gb ram, cant say the cpu exactly, but thats where its at it seems. Anyway, running 70 mostly stereo tracks at 48khz 24bit with a decapitator on each seems to take me to roughly 75% on the studio one disk meter. Theres not 70 tracks running at once though, I didnt try that...well anyway, Im after estimates here, not exact numbers.


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## givemenoughrope (Feb 11, 2021)

Why not print the audio through them and then mix?


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## Living Fossil (Feb 11, 2021)

G_Erland said:


> Didnt play Decapitators or console emulations on their own will play though, so I have work-arounds, but it just had me wondering: what specs would you need for, say, 100 tracks - console emulation, something like decapitator + utilities + reverbs?


With 100 tracks that use Decapitator my main concern would rather be how much aliasing you would get... I can't imagine that this combo could sound good in any sense.
My guess is you would get some serious harshness, maybe even at 96kHz...


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## G_Erland (Feb 11, 2021)

givemenoughrope said:


> Why not print the audio through them and then mix?


Cheers! Yup, that was what I meant by workaround...gets to be a lot of files though, console pass, decapitator pass...or maybe theres some freeze options I havent considered


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## G_Erland (Feb 11, 2021)

Living Fossil said:


> With 100 tracks that use Decapitator my main concern would rather be how much aliasing you would get... I can't imagine that this combo could sound good in any sense.
> My guess is you would get some serious harshness, maybe even at 96kHz...


Interesting. Tell you how I use it though, and off course, theres never 70 instance running at once. I simply load them, no drive. Choose one of the profiles based on tone, rather than use eq. Some channels will get a hint of drive. Will this result in the problem you are describing?


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## G_Erland (Feb 11, 2021)

Realized that you can keep adding plugins after «transform to rendered audio». So thats neater than I thought! Question about specs still stands though, and Im wondering about that nasty aliasing now!


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## jcrosby (Feb 11, 2021)

Busses busses busses... I've found this to be the best way to go for most scenarios, and it gives bussed instruments a sense of cohesiveness...


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## Jeremy Spencer (Feb 11, 2021)

As mentioned, why not use busses? This would drastically reduce your cpu load. You could have, for example, three instances of Decapitator on their own bus, and then send tracks accordingly.


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## G_Erland (Feb 12, 2021)

Well I do bus stuff, I will bus sections and so on. So, the decapitator things is not end all be all - but, at the moment I quite like getting away from the endless tweaking of EQ. Ill try to get a vocal ready with just a tape sim, decapitator and a delay circuit say. Ill then use decapitator to decide basically brighter or darker for individual tracks, and then drive the bus of a section lightly instead of turning it up otherwise.


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## Nate Johnson (Feb 14, 2021)

Interesting experiment, thanks for the inspiration!

I just played around in a session with throwing a console emulation on all 40 tracks of orchestral instruments. And it's a Neve emulation at that (read:diiirtty!!). My computer was ok with it, but talk about an overwhelming way to manage a session. So I compared running the per track instances against just having the consoles on the section busses - you know what - no magic sauce to be had there. Running consoles (or whatever eq concept you prefer) on the busses will be just fine, and I'll continue to spot fix eq on individual tracks as needed. 

I still kinda want to hear what 70 instances of Decapitator sounds like though....


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## G_Erland (Feb 14, 2021)

Hi Nate, thats cool! So you mean no reason to use a console emulation on individual tracks, rather than on just the buses? Granted, Im unsure about any obvious benefits myself. If anything it impacts the stereo presentation most audibly I find. The session needs to be quite set up to compare obviously, I normalize peaks to -12 on all tracks and the particular emulation I have, the bx_G lets me randomise the channels, they modelled all the channels individually on the desk. Im sure thats what youre doing as well, and Im quite sure I cant hear a real difference until I make all the channels unique. And haha, yes, its sounds so radical doesnt it using all the decapitators, but realise, mostly I use them as just tone boxes, not distortion units


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## G_Erland (Feb 14, 2021)

I did try to find information on decapitator and aliasing, and found a thread on a certain gear-forum about Chad Blake, who I was able to gather, mixes similarly: either using decapitator or the pro tools sans amp emulation. Im not sure I got wiser. Aliasing seems unavoidable in digital...though different plugs exhibit it differently and theres oversampling. Its seems certainly to be measurable...but in practice I cant see a clear consensus on its detriment to audio unless extreme beyond practicality. Hmmmm...what I desire is that open sound and the approach of «tone» takes me some distance towards it, but...maybe I should just not use anything and automate my way to the best mix possible?


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## Nate Johnson (Feb 14, 2021)

G_Erland said:


> what I desire is that open sound and the approach of «tone» takes me some distance towards it, but...maybe I should just not use anything and automate my way to the best mix possible?


I learned the core of my audio engineering knowledge, working in an active studio, recording live musicians on mostly analog gear.

Getting sounds ‘right at the source’ instead of ‘fixing it in the mix’ are words I still live by to this day, even though I’m creating music 100% in the box.

These days, instead of carefully placing microphones, I’m (more or less) carefully selecting sample libraries that sound pretty great on their own.

Of course, with my style of music, I’m blurring composition and sound design; mixing as I go. When I’m ready to finalize my mix, I usually strip the entire session back to its ‘roots’ - and reshape my sound palette to achieve a more technical mix. Usually I’m trying to accomplish this task with minimal plugins. If I can ‘fix’ an sonic issue adjusting something in the library, I’ll do that first. Sometimes its removing an instrument all together. If not, then I’ll add other tools to shape the sound.


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## colony nofi (Feb 15, 2021)

Nate Johnson said:


> I learned the core of my audio engineering knowledge, working in an active studio, recording live musicians on mostly analog gear.
> 
> Getting sounds ‘right at the source’ instead of ‘fixing it in the mix’ are words I still live by to this day, even though I’m creating music 100% in the box.
> 
> ...


This. Many many times this.
I kinda get a little dismayed at some approaches to mixing I’ve seen here. Of course - each to their own and all that - and I don’t mind going down some pretty esoteric paths myself at times - but decapitator on every channel?

Im of the disposition that says less is more. Balance is key. A little saturation. But for good reason... you do know many libs come recorded thru tape / or thru a console... Many mic “signals” are already mix downs of many mics thru buss amps...

Maybe try a different approach. Start with no plugins. And add only if you feel like you hear something not quite right. That goes for eq, compression, time based effects, modulation fx, anything. Saturation.

and like others have said - busses really help both organise things and mean you don’t need so many plugins. Your mixes shouldn’t take forever. I’ve mixed entire orchestral scores (live orchestra plus additional samples which the composer wished to use) plus soloists and the like - 50 cues in 5 days. Would I have liked longer? Sure - but it can be done - and really helps you hone in on the things that matter.


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## dgburns (Feb 15, 2021)

Living Fossil said:


> With 100 tracks that use Decapitator my main concern would rather be how much aliasing you would get... I can't imagine that this combo could sound good in any sense.
> My guess is you would get some serious harshness, maybe even at 96kHz...



Dunno, I don’t think a plugin like decapitator would throw off enough aliasing to be so noticeable. I’m not sure I would use it on every channel however, that seems wrong.

I tend to find these days that I have to brighten stuff up a bit though. I find ‘flat’ is not entirely as pleasing. Obviously this is personal.


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## G_Erland (Feb 15, 2021)

I absolutely agree with everything said above - and my original post was wondering about specs, though Im more than happy to talk about mixing. So what Im doing is that Im developing a mix strategy for a large-ish project. Im using mainly OT libs. It has spoken vocals all over. Its stands to reason, at least my reason, that set up correctly the decapitator works as a rather flexible channel strip. Maybe not transparent, but Id say it can do subtle. As such, rather than using an eq to notch out frequencies, say, you would rather start with tone and then do broad strokes from there. But yeah, I do take forever, and my current shake up is to try to change that, arrive at something consistent. I dont want to post from the project, but could chance sending someone a snippet of the all decapitators version (of a track) if they would be willing to use their hard earned free time and more experienced ear to give a morsel of advice (I never intended asking this question)?


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## el-bo (Feb 15, 2021)

G_Erland said:


> I absolutely agree with everything said above - and my original post was wondering about specs, though Im more than happy to talk about mixing. So what Im doing is that Im developing a mix strategy for a large-ish project. Im using mainly OT libs. It has spoken vocals all over. Its stands to reason, at least my reason, that set up correctly the decapitator works as a rather flexible channel strip. Maybe not transparent, but Id say it can do subtle. As such, rather than using an eq to notch out frequencies, say, you would rather start with tone and then do broad strokes from there. But yeah, I do take forever, and my current shake up is to try to change that, arrive at something consistent. I dont want to post from the project, but could chance sending someone a snippet of the all decapitators version (of a track) if they would be willing to use their hard earned free time and more experienced ear to give a morsel of advice (I never intended asking this question)?


There's nothing wrong with going the console emulation route, but using a full-fat plugin like Decapitator to try and achieve the subtle effect you seem to be after is a huge waste of resources. Have you looked into the Airwindows consoles, now at version 7:






Console7 | Airwindows







www.airwindows.com





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## G_Erland (Feb 16, 2021)

el-bo said:


> There's nothing wrong with going the console emulation route, but using a full-fat plugin like Decapitator to try and achieve the subtle effect you seem to be after is a huge waste of resources. Have you looked into the Airwindows consoles, now at version 7:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with the console route, I know right?! Look, I think I could make the case for Decapitator as a very flexible channel strip, or indeed echoboy- you dont get a compressor to do anything subtle with or a notch filter, but in context one could accept the compensation of tone profiles, saturation and basic eq. There is dry/wet as well as you well know. The argument about wasting resources i can kind of see, yet really not, surely mixing is one field where means to an end is credited as moral philosophy? Strikes me as odd too - to reserve the resources you already have, of dependable quality, to subscribe to another bundle of mathematics, no? But, i have been dialing everything back now. Getting close, more natural and breathes better, yet just indescribably on the wrong side of dull - I want to say smooth..yet not necessarily clear. Doesnt sound so exaggerated to me, but horrible mono performance...trying to be rational about how critical that is. So far i like it on laptops and the like...cant imagine anybody ever listening to this stuff in car.


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## fakemaxwell (Feb 16, 2021)

el-bo said:


> There's nothing wrong with going the console emulation route, but using a full-fat plugin like Decapitator to try and achieve the subtle effect you seem to be after is a huge waste of resources. Have you looked into the Airwindows consoles, now at version 7:


A can of worms, to be sure (I am not sure any version of Console does much of anything), but I disagree that you can't use a whole bunch of saturation plugins gently. Pretty much everything I mix ends up with Saturn all over the place. Dan Worrall has a good video with it: 

You can obviously use whatever saturation plugin you want. Saturn has a HQ mode that oversamples the audio, so no need to worry about aliasing. I also am not sure aliasing matters unless you can hear it, which you rarely can unless you're really into sine wave-only music.

Just did a quick test- in Reaper, with 100 tracks of stereo audio and Saturn at full blast on "Warm Tape", CPU is at about 8-10% @1024 samples. At 512 it's about 15%, at 64 it's much higher (about 50%) but that's not really an editing environment. Still plays fine, though. On a 9900K and RME UFX+.


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## G_Erland (Feb 16, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> A can of worms, to be sure (I am not sure any version of Console does much of anything), but I disagree that you can't use a whole bunch of saturation plugins gently. Pretty much everything I mix ends up with Saturn all over the place. Dan Worrall has a good video with it:
> 
> You can obviously use whatever saturation plugin you want. Saturn has a HQ mode that oversamples the audio, so no need to worry about aliasing. I also am not sure aliasing matters unless you can hear it, which you rarely can unless you're really into sine wave-only music.
> 
> Just did a quick test- in Reaper, with 100 tracks of stereo audio and Saturn at full blast on "Warm Tape", CPU is at about 8-10% @1024 samples. At 512 it's about 15%, at 64 it's much higher (about 50%) but that's not really an editing environment. Still plays fine, though. On a 9900K and RME UFX+.



You have given me a few things to think about and try, thank you very much!


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## el-bo (Feb 17, 2021)

G_Erland said:


> The argument about wasting resources i can kind of see, yet really not, surely mixing is one field where means to an end is credited as moral philosophy? Strikes me as odd too - to reserve the resources you already have, of dependable quality, to subscribe to another bundle of mathematics, no?


Moral philosophy? Honestly, I have no idea what you on about. 

You started a thread looking for advice because what you were trying to do was eating up most of your resources. The reason that there are a few types of 'total-console' emulations is clearly because some users want the type of difference it makes. But the level of cross-talk, saturation and glueing/cohesion these setups perform is extremely subtle, which I think you understand. I am saying it makes no sense to use so many instances of a full saturation/distortion plugin for such a simple task (You wouldn't use a sledgehammer to pin a shopping receipt to a cork-board), especially when you've almost brought your computer to it's knees before even considering adding anything else.

I haven't tried Chris' latest version of console, but I am inclined it believe that it is extremely well-optimised for task. You don't want to pay $20 for a different "bundle of mathematics", but are perhaps considering buying a more powerful computer? Like I said, I just don't get it. If you aren't interested in the Airwindows stuff (Designed to act like a full desk, as opposed to loading up tons of separate distortion instances) then maybe consider other options that are less processor-intensive than what you currently have


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## G_Erland (Feb 17, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Moral philosophy? Honestly, I have no idea what you on about.
> 
> You started a thread looking for advice because what you were trying to do was eating up most of your resources. The reason that there are a few types of 'total-console' emulations is clearly because some users want the type of difference it makes. But the level of cross-talk, saturation and glueing/cohesion these setups perform is extremely subtle, which I think you understand. I am saying it makes no sense to use so many instances of a full saturation/distortion plugin for such a simple task (You wouldn't use a sledgehammer to pin a shopping receipt to a cork-board), especially when you've almost brought your computer to it's knees before even considering adding anything else.
> 
> I haven't tried Chris' latest version of console, but I am inclined it believe that it is extremely well-optimised for task. You don't want to pay $20 for a different "bundle of mathematics", but are perhaps considering buying a more powerful computer? Like I said, I just don't get it. If you aren't interested in the Airwindows stuff (Designed to act like a full desk, as opposed to loading up tons of separate distortion instances) then maybe consider other options that are less processor-intensive than what you currently have


Makes perfect sense off course, thank you - and by moral philosophy i just meant how audio people always say «ill use whatever gets the job done». I assure you my first thought when replying was that you had taken the time to reply - in my mind my writing was lighthearted and inquisitive, meant to keep it jovial! And Ill certainly look at airwindows - my impression of the developer is that alot probably happened since last time I checked it out! And granted, a whole fleet of decapitors is absurd...but also fun - i think i learned quite a bit by trying actually, even if i now decide against it for the particular mix i tried it on.


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## el-bo (Feb 17, 2021)

G_Erland said:


> Makes perfect sense off course, thank you - and by moral philosophy i just meant how audio people always say «ill use whatever gets the job done». I assure you my first thought when replying was that you had taken the time to reply - in my mind my writing was lighthearted and inquisitive, meant to keep it jovial! And Ill certainly look at airwindows - my impression of the developer is that alot probably happened since last time I checked it out! And granted, a whole fleet of decapitors is absurd...but also fun - i think i learned quite a bit by trying actually, even if i now decide against it for the particular mix i tried it on.


S'all good! And yeah...Chris definitely keeps rollin' at quite a pace. Maybe download and try, if you're curious. There were other options from other developers, though I'm not sure they're still being developed.


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## MartinH. (Feb 17, 2021)

el-bo said:


> I haven't tried Chris' latest version of console, but I am inclined it believe that it is extremely well-optimised for task. You don't want to pay $20 for a different "bundle of mathematics", but are perhaps considering buying a more powerful computer? Like I said, I just don't get it. If you aren't interested in the Airwindows stuff (Designed to act like a full desk, as opposed to loading up tons of separate distortion instances) then maybe consider other options that are less processor-intensive than what you currently have



Chris was actually the one who convinced me with his demo videos to give console emulations a shot. But I ended up buying and using bx_Console N, because of their TMT approach and because the routing setup for the airwindows console didn't work as well for exporting stems, and I couldn't quite wrap my head around what it actually does with the encode/decode setup.


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## el-bo (Feb 17, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Chris was actually the one who convinced me with his demo videos to give console emulations a shot. But I ended up buying and using bx_Console N, because of their TMT approach and because the routing setup for the airwindows console didn't work as well for exporting stems, and I couldn't quite wrap my head around what it actually does with the encode/decode setup.


Yeah, I have the Lindell 80 console which also uses that tech. I think, as someone else has posted, that using this stuff as and when it works it's needed will often be enough. 
Do you use Console N on all channels? i was interested in that for so long, but just didn't enjoy working with the interface. I think they granted me three demo periods, but it still irritated me 
Of all the PA consoles, I think I'm now most interested in the Focusrite.


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## MartinH. (Feb 17, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Yeah, I have the Lindell 80 console which also uses that tech. I think, as someone else has posted, that using this stuff as and when it works it's needed will often be enough.
> Do you use Console N on all channels? i was interested in that for so long, but just didn't enjoy working with the interface. I think they granted me three demo periods, but it still irritated me
> Of all the PA consoles, I think I'm now most interested in the Focusrite.



I mainly bought it for a metal project that I'm not working on at the moment, but there I'm using it on all channels (which isn't a lot - drums, bass, 3 guitar tracks, maybe vocals). On most other things I don't use it, mainly because I dislike the interface. For saturation I use the Ozone Exciter a lot. 

If the interface still irritates you after 3 demo periods I would suggest just getting a console with a better interface and I kind of wish I had bought a different one for that reason.


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## el-bo (Feb 17, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> I mainly bought it for a metal project that I'm not working on at the moment, but there I'm using it on all channels (which isn't a lot - drums, bass, 3 guitar tracks, maybe vocals). On most other things I don't use it, mainly because I dislike the interface. For saturation I use the Ozone Exciter a lot.
> 
> If the interface still irritates you after 3 demo periods I would suggest just getting a console with a better interface and I kind of wish I had bought a different one for that reason.


I tried it on three occasions because I really liked the sound of it, and there was enough passed time between each demo to have convinced myself that I'd finally click with the interface. But alas...

It's far too cramped. The whole dynamics section is an absolute shed-show! And the arse-backwards rotation of the EQ knobs, because apparently historical accuracy trumps modern-day usability


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## jacobthestupendous (Feb 18, 2021)

I don't know about processor loads. 

It seems like something like Waves NLS might be worth trying. If you were using a thunderbolt Apollo interface, you could also try using Universal Audio's "free" DAW, which advertises console/tape summing on every track as one of its central features.

You need a careful touch with saturation because it accumulates. I imagine any amount x 70 tracks could very easily turn into noise.


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## el-bo (Feb 18, 2021)

jacobthestupendous said:


> Universal Audio's "free" DAW, which advertises console/tape summing on every track as one of its central features.


That also brings to mind this option:





__





Mixbus - Digital Audio Workstation Software (DAW) | Harrison


Mix faster and sound better! Mixbus is full-featured digital audio workstation and music production software for recording, editing, mixing, and mastering your music. Nashville's best music software.




harrisonconsoles.com


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## G_Erland (Feb 19, 2021)

jacobthestupendous said:


> I don't know about processor loads.
> 
> It seems like something like Waves NLS might be worth trying. If you were using a thunderbolt Apollo interface, you could also try using Universal Audio's "free" DAW, which advertises console/tape summing on every track as one of its central features.
> 
> You need a careful touch with saturation because it accumulates. I imagine any amount x 70 tracks could very easily turn into noise.


I did once try the NLS plugin - it seemed to do rather a lot compared to other consoles Ive since tried. I dont know if anybody else here is using studio one - but if so there is the mix fx option to concider as well. Presonus makes their own and Softube tape can also be used globally.


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## patrick76 (Feb 20, 2021)

As a huge fan of decapitator, I just wanted to say that I can appreciate your experiment! Like most people here, I tend to use it on buses, but I also use it like you are describing as a sort of eq. I like to put it on N setting and darken the tone knob a bit to smooth out a little harshness sometimes. I believe I stole that from Alan Meyerson who I think mentioned it in a video somewhere - sorry, my memory is not the best! Lack of sleep will do that.


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