# MIR - SPAT - VVS - Origami - EAReverb (again)



## Erik (Feb 6, 2016)

There have been quite a few threads on the topic: which positionings tool should I use?

Well, I have made six tracks based on material from Beat Kaufmann (Bach BWV 11) to give you a comparison of different stage positioning software products: SPAT, MIR, Origami, EAReverb2 and VSS2. Since the latter only handles the ER I have made three different _tail versions_ with it.

Here we go:
http://www.erikotte.nl/blog/Bach/1Bach_BWV11_BK_Spat.mp3 (SPAT)
http://www.erikotte.nl/blog/Bach/2Bach_BWV11_BK_MIrPro01.mp3 (MIR) (Sage Hall)
http://www.erikotte.nl/blog/Bach/3Bach_BWV11_BK_Origami.mp3 (Origami) (Large concert Hall) used: four different depth levels, added old fashioned panning per stem.
http://www.erikotte.nl/blog/Bach/4Bach_BWV11_BK_VVS-VVV.mp3 (VSS &amp; Valhalla Vintage Verb)
http://www.erikotte.nl/blog/Bach/5Bach_BWV11_BK_VVS-rc48.mp3 (VSS &amp; RC 48)
http://www.erikotte.nl/blog/Bach/6Bach_BWV11_BK_VVS-QLSpaces_SFHall.mp3 (VSS &amp; QL Spaces (San Fransisco Hall))
http://www.erikotte.nl/blog/Bach/7Bach_BWV11_BK_EAReverb.mp3 (EAReverb)
http://www.erikotte.nl/blog/Bach/8Bach_BWV11_BK_EAReverbB.mp3 (EAReverb dryer)

I hope that there will be any response on this contribution. I am very eager to find out your opinions on this. I am aware of the fact that anybody else would have come with different results undoubtly working with the same plugins, but maybe this is a start of further discussion.

For me, I prefer the SPAT version because of its uncoloured and transparant result btw. Origami does really a good job also, for the price it is a top product: there is so much defined depth in it!

[EDIT: VVS was a typo, I meant VSS: Virtual Sound Stage, version 2 btw]
[EDIT2: added EAReverb2 2x]


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## mgpqa1 (Feb 6, 2016)

Thanks for doing this! Listening to them now. Also, would it be too much trouble if you could add another example using eaReckon's EAReverb 2 (a demo is available) in POS mode? And "VVS"... did you mean to say V*S*S (VirtualSoundStage)?


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## Silence-is-Golden (Feb 6, 2016)

Good initiative Erik! Later this evening ( for me  ) I will have a listen to your work.

Getting more and more drawn to try out origami.

Did you get the origami from the full indepence software package, or did you use the free version?


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## Suganthan (Feb 6, 2016)

FYI guys: Origami is included in Independence free version. The positioner is wonderful(IMO). Worth giving a try. Look out your Cpu usage though.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Feb 6, 2016)

Difficult to always know how one listens to something, even from day to day.

Because at this moment, I would say that Spat is almost too good, too clean, too non diffusing.
The instruments and the way they are played( too quantised feeling) maybe adds to this.
Hearing it now I think that VSS (2?),Mir and Origami are very close to each other.
They do a better job to blend it all to one orchestral placement with all interacting sounds in one space.
Spat somehow seems like they are all in the same clean room but not interacting with each other sonically. Eventhough there is a certain attraction to the clearity it also is too clean.

Recently had a listen to Guy Bacos's work again and he uses all VSL products including MIR, and he makes excellent mixes and sound very clean and spacious. So it is also how well you get to know your materials and use them with good ears and a sense for space and sound.

Origami is on the try out list soon. Especially since it can be acquired for free 

Sometime in the future I will load up an orchestral piece from Bizet I have been using for template balancing. I used VSS2 in conjunction with Logic's space designer with some bricasty m7 presets, and Valhalla room.
I believe I get some decent results, but maybe I still need to get used to the way the sound of a VI changes when using it inside VSS2.

Spitfire's Mural f.e. I don't use within VSS since it drains the life out of it. BwW and LASS work ok via VSS2.
VSL vi's I use via MIRx and use the blending overal of Valhalla room to bring it all together.

Therefore I hope Origami may leave the vi's more intact.


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## Arbee (Feb 6, 2016)

Thanks for doing this Erik. To my ears, MIR is the only one of these examples that gives me any sense of "being there" in the space (as opposed to just good positioning and reverb). Another way of interpreting that statement though is to say MIR perhaps colours the sound too much. But, it is intended to mimic particularly venues, so at that point my brain just explodes without a conclusion......


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## patrick76 (Feb 6, 2016)

Thanks this is very interesting. I feel that SPAT does sound wonderful, but I think it does not necessarily sound like reality. It has a very nice musical sound that is pleasing, but it does not sound real to me as far as creating the impression of being there in a hall. I suppose which I would choose would be dependent upon which recording or environment I was attempting to simulate. So, in conclusion, I would prefer to own all of them


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## Erik (Feb 7, 2016)

mgpqa1 said:


> Thanks for doing this! Listening to them now. Also, would it be too much trouble if you could add another example using eaReckon's EAReverb 2 (a demo is available) in POS mode? And "VVS"... did you mean to say V*S*S (VirtualSoundStage)?


Of course Virtual *S*ound Stage, version 2, thanks for mentioning. I'll try to make enEAReverb 2 version also today.

@Silence-is-Golden: I used the original Origami version that was released before they made that Full Independent version. But I assume there isn't much difference though?


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## Erik (Feb 7, 2016)

added EARreverb2, twice. See the first post.


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## Audio Birdi (Feb 7, 2016)

Erik said:


> added EARreverb2, twice. See the first post.


It seems the dryer EARreverb isn't working for some reason. Just thought I'd let you know


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## Silence-is-Golden (Feb 14, 2016)

Erik said:


> added EARreverb2, twice. See the first post.


Hi Erik,
Do you need/use a seperate instance for each section? Or is it like vss with having multiple inputs?
If seperate instances how is the cpu usage?


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## Erik (Feb 15, 2016)

It is like VSS with multiple outputs, in the demo you'll have to go through some screens before continuing and having the same GUI and settings however.


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## Erik (Feb 15, 2016)

KaBirdi,
Link EAReverb2 dryer has been fixed now, thanks for your attention.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Feb 21, 2016)

Hi all
Let me share my BWV11-Mix as well for comparing a further possible mix but this time done the old fashioned way with 4 VSL-Convolution Reverbs (Suite 1) and a B2 for the tail over all. Then I also used Panners, EQs, Compressors etc. of course.
http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/downloads/bwv_11_final-mix.mp3

Have fun 
Beat


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## Beat Kaufmann (Feb 21, 2016)

Erik said:


> ...I hope that there will be any response on this contribution. I am very eager to find out your opinions on this. I am aware of the fact that anybody else would have come with different results undoubtly working with the same plugins, but maybe this is a start of further discussion.


Nice Job you've done! 
A first key position of all the mixes is between 1:00 and 1:15. 
Observe the positions of all the instruments and instrument sections...
Sometimes instruments sound too close Harpsi, Timpani, ... Sometimes there are no differences... Trumpets really need to sound farther away than strings also timpanis. It seems that some "systems" can not bring out the choir with enough power. So if you are looking for a mixing-system you also should take into account wehther you are able to handle such volume matters or not. 
All the best
Beat


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## FriFlo (Feb 22, 2016)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> Hi all
> Let me share my BWV11-Mix as well for comparing a further possible mix but this time done the old fashioned way with 4 VSL-Convolution Reverbs (Suite 1) and a B2 for the tail over all. Then I also used Panners, EQs, Compressors etc. of course.
> http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/downloads/bwv_11_final-mix.mp3
> 
> ...


What did you do with those consonants, when the choir comes in? In sounds like some of the singers having tourett syndrom.  Otherwise, that sounds quite good! IMO it is not so much the kind of reverb. 90% is the midi editing, 8% is your skill of handling (any decent) plugin and only 2% is the actual reverb or positioner. 
You can see this with erics examples: Every of those is good, because of the good programming of the instruments. But I hear the woodwinds in front of the strings, so this could be fixed with any of those plugins. Yes, there is a difference between the versions and I have my preference, but you probably concentrate way more on this difference, Eric, because of the huge amount of time you probably spent with it. Not so much other people. They would have found all of these versions pretty good, if you showed them just one.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Feb 23, 2016)

FriFlo said:


> What did you do with those consonants, when the choir comes in? In sounds like some of the singers having tourett syndrom.  Otherwise, that sounds quite good! IMO it is not so much the kind of reverb. 90% is the midi editing, 8% is your skill...


Hi Master FriFo 
I "damped" the "sa, ta, pa" a bit with an EQ (as good as possible) for you so that you don't have to suffer so much anymore.
http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/downloads/bwv_11_final-mix.mp3

In the mean time I hope you increase my skill-value from 8% to 9%. 
And because I also produced the original 24 audiofiles for this "mixing project for everyone" I put my trust in you that you will give me another single % (finally 10%) for my skills...  Thank you so much in advance!

If you don't know where to take these 2% from - take them from the 90%-midi-Editing. 
I really don't know where you need Midi-skills for mixing 24 Audio Tracks...

All the best
Beat


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## Paul T McGraw (Feb 23, 2016)

My ears are too old, or my brain is too old, or something else must be wrong with me because they all sound delightful and wonderful, including the two by Beat Kaufmann.

Thank you Eric and Beat Kaufmann for sharing these mixes. Thanks Friflo for your specific comments. Once I knew to listen for the position of the strings vs winds and brass I was able to discern that difference on my second time listening through them all. Based on just that one factor, the 2nd mix by Beat stands out as providing the most "depth" to my ears. Gosh I hope I got that correct. I am just a hobbyist, and I have a lot to learn about reverb and mixing.

I am a bit confused about QL Spaces. I thought that QL Spaces was a convolution reverb with early reflections. Why use it after VSS?


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## tarantulis (Feb 23, 2016)

Wow, how did I miss this. Many thanks, Erik.


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## Erik (Feb 23, 2016)

Thanks for all input and nice posts!
In the meantime I am working on implementing suggestions here. So in due course there will be more to listen at....


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## Silence-is-Golden (Feb 25, 2016)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> Hi all
> Let me share my BWV11-Mix as well for comparing a further possible mix but this time done the old fashioned way with 4 VSL-Convolution Reverbs (Suite 1) and a B2 for the tail over all. Then I also used Panners, EQs, Compressors etc. of course.
> http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/downloads/bwv_11_final-mix.mp3
> 
> ...



I still have this mixing trial on my go do list, but now I have to top this mix and I believe that will not be easy .....

Seriously, it sounds very good, and as I consider myself still a novice to mixing I am going to keep the efforts to myself for now. But encouraging to learn from these examples.

And Beat Kaufmann, as a side note: on your website you have put a few tests from reverbs.
One of them is the softube Tsar-1.
Can I presume, since you only have a small selection of reverbs tested, that these are recommendations from you?

Thank you in advance.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Feb 28, 2016)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> ...One of them is the softube Tsar-1.
> Can I presume, since you only have a small selection of reverbs tested, that these are recommendations from you?
> 
> Thank you in advance.


No, these tested reverbs are not recommendations.
The quality of PlugIn-Effects made some extra steps foreward around 2010/2011. While Virsyn was a good reverb for a long time, TSAR, Breeze, ICRAM and others offered new qualities, much more closer to good hardware products and the reality. But as always it depends on what you will use a reverb. So giving a bit of ambiance for a drum session is another task than adding a nice long church reverb or creating a nice far distance. So TSAR can produce such a fat and nice ambiance-sound very good in my eyes while Breeze is more my clear fafourite when I need an airy, spacy and nice reverb sound (Listen to the examples at "Huge-Hall" Examples)... and this even today - 5 years after my test of these 5 reverbs.
Nevertheless, we have got some more new reverbs since 2011 which are sounding very nice as well.
As mentioned above: Most software effects - not only reverbs - made huge steps during the last 5 years.
Finally, if you want to have a recommendation:
Because each reverb has its strenghts: Buy 2-3 good and different reverbs. Try to use each of them when it sounds best for a certain situation.

Beat


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## Silence-is-Golden (Feb 29, 2016)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> No, these tested reverbs are not recommendations.
> The quality of PlugIn-Effects made some extra steps foreward around 2010/2011. While Virsyn was a good reverb for a long time, TSAR, Breeze, ICRAM and others offered new qualities, much more closer to good hardware products and the reality. But as always it depends on what you will use a reverb. So giving a bit of ambiance for a drum session is another task than adding a nice long church reverb or creating a nice far distance. So TSAR can produce such a fat and nice ambiance-sound very good in my eyes while Breeze is more my clear fafourite when I need an airy, spacy and nice reverb sound (Listen to the examples at "Huge-Hall" Examples)... and this even today - 5 years after my test of these 5 reverbs.
> Nevertheless, we have got some more new reverbs since 2011 which are sounding very nice as well.
> As mentioned above: Most software effects - not only reverbs - made huge steps during the last 5 years.
> ...


Thank for the answers Beat.
I am beginning to get the salient message from different sources, buy a few good reverbs with different approaches/sound/convo-or algo and learn them well so you can apply them well.
Thank you!


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## EuropaWill (Sep 10, 2016)

I'm late to the party here as I only joined the forum recently! But this is a great thread thank you Erik!

I listened to mainly SPAT, MirPro, Origami, and VSS and have some initial thoughts: SPAT and Origami examples both have more clarity but don't sound as if they are in a believable room like MirPro. MirPro sounds initially better and more realistic, but upon additional scrutiny I find many details are lost or smeared in addition to being somewhat muddy in the lower end. Origami seems a bit artificially spread out and too in my face with not much "room sound", while VSS with Valhala seems to have fewest issues to my ears but it doesn't convey the sense of being in a real room like MirPro. 

I should point out that I expected MirPro to do better and am somewhat disappointed with this example. Perhaps a different room or setting in Mir would improve its results, but that could be said for any of the other examples as well... but as far as these specific examples go, I'd be inclined to go with VSS with the EW combo as the winner, as it seemed to preserve the detail and separation i expected while giving some sense of actual space without any odd artificial effects added as I noticed in the Origami example.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 25, 2016)

the links to the demos seem to be broken, are they available anymore?


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## Erik (Nov 26, 2016)

Here is everything OK, just checked. Please try again.


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