# POLL: those making a fulltime living off music - how much do you work per week?



## smalltownpoet (Jul 25, 2019)

Those making a fulltime living off music - how much do you work per week? Is it possible to work "normal work hours" (40 or less) and still maintain a "normal life" with family and the like? TIA.


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## Denkii (Jul 25, 2019)

To be honest I don't even know a lot of people who supposedly work 40 hours (on paper) and really keep it at 40 hours.
Having two categories is probably a bit shallow.


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## jonathanparham (Jul 25, 2019)

smalltownpoet said:


> Those making a fulltime living off music - how much do you work per week? Is it possible to work "normal work hours" (40 or less) and still maintain a "normal life" with family and the like? TIA.


Just had coffee with a senior in music performance who was thinking of changing their major. They asked about 'balance' I laughed and said there is none lol.


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## Rob (Jul 25, 2019)

about 50h a week, no clear time schedule, more or less always willing to do what needs to be done...


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## StevenMcDonald (Jul 25, 2019)

Definitely less. But I do make myself available if needed for quick turnaround custom work. I had to work a lot back when I still had a day job to support myself, but I'm able to take it at a more relaxed pace now that I have back end/royalty income.


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## NoamL (Jul 25, 2019)

Zero hours per week when there isn't a project. Way, way, way more than 40 when there is.


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## bryla (Jul 25, 2019)

Exactly what @Rob and @NoamL says.
When there isn't a project I do sit down and work on technical stuff or things that I want to improve.


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## smalltownpoet (Jul 27, 2019)

thanks so much for all the replies!


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jul 27, 2019)

60 hours/week


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## Desire Inspires (Jul 27, 2019)

Patrick de Caumette said:


> 60 hours/week



That’s not too bad.


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## GingerMaestro (Jul 27, 2019)

I have a full time music job, plus other bits on the side. Minimum would be 50hrs, often 14-16 hr days (100hrs plus per week) In short you just have to do what's needed to get the job done. In addition to the actual music work, there's answering emails, phonecalls etc as soon as you get up in the morning and until you go to bed. If you are looking for a 9-5 job, I would think music is probably not the easiest avenue to explore.


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## JJP (Jul 27, 2019)

I try very hard to not work in the evenings. Sometimes it is unavoidable when on a large project, but most of the time I don't find it necessary.

If a project absolutely requires over 40 hrs per week, I bill accordingly to cover the overtime and/or additional cost of supervising the extra help that is necessary. I also do most of my work on a union agreement, so that has certain rates and protections included.

I see quality of life as very valuable and easily damaged in our business. It's important to value it in how we charge and structure our work.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jul 27, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> That’s not too bad.


That's when there are no deadlines looming.
But after having spent that weekly average for the past 40 years, i am definitely looking to cut down and enjoy life more...
Music is a beautiful tree, but there is a whole forest out there...


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## Desire Inspires (Jul 27, 2019)

Patrick de Caumette said:


> That's when there are no deadlines looming.
> But after having spent that weekly average for the past 40 years, i am definitely looking to cut down and enjoy life more...
> Music is a beautiful tree, but there is a whole forest out there...



Are your royalties enough to allow you to cut back on work?


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jul 27, 2019)

What i mean is the 60 hours i do on average include time working for myself on the top of clients work: writing pieces, tweaking my setup, practicing my guitar, reading about latest gear and techniques online ...etc
To me, and i am sure to a lot of people here, it is an obsession as much as it is a job. So when i talk about cutting down on time spent doing music, i talk about walking away from it when possible in order to enjoy life.
Time goes by fast, and i want to fill the time that i have left with enjoyable, memorable moments that are not only music related.


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## JJP (Jul 27, 2019)

Patrick brings up another facet of this. What do we consider to be time spent working? Does practice count? If you're a performing musician, I'd say it does. Does time spent optimizing your system or template count? I'd say yes if that's vital to your ability to do your job as a composer, orchestrator, or copyist effectively.

It's important that the rates we charge account for this extra time involved in doing the work. It's not possible to do work for clients 40+ hrs a week, 52 weeks a year and then do all the other work or practice on top of it. If you don't plan to have time for your family or much else meaningful in life, I guess it could be done. Though it has been shown to shorten your lifespan on average.


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## JohnG (Jul 27, 2019)

I often work 18 hours a day or more, and the engineers, orchestrators, copyists -- everyone with whom I interact has the same schedule when things are "on." 

This business is really a challenge for someone with health problems, I'd say.


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## Jaap (Jul 27, 2019)

60+ hours here, that is for both my music and sound design work.


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## rgames (Jul 27, 2019)

It depends on what you call "making a living". A living wage varies greatly by geographic location. So you need to factor that in.

However, if you write for libraries it's definitely possible to make low five figures USD with only a few hours a week on average. In actuality that equates to a few periods of 20-30 hour weeks over the course of a year and no work during the remainder. It's a pretty good side gig but I wouldn't call it a living wage in the US but it certainly can be outside the US. But add $20k from libraries to your earnings from performing and teaching and it becomes a living wage in the US with no more than the usual 40 hr/week commitment. It's still not a great living (usually...) but it's a living.

rgames


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jul 27, 2019)

JohnG said:


> This business is really a challenge for someone with health problems, I'd say.



And i'd say that keeping an insane work schedule will eventually lead to illness, even if you were originally healthy and strong...


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## chillbot (Jul 27, 2019)

Such a silly thread. Also "multiple votes are allowed" so I voted for all two options both.

So much depends on what are you working on, how much are you getting paid, how much is your overhead, most importantly how fast are you at whatever you are doing.

I will say that when I have a project I'm excited about it sure doesn't ever feel like "work" I can put in an 80-hour week without realizing it. But on the flip side sometimes a 40-hour week just drags out, especially if you feel like you're not doing anything new or inventive, musically. (My advice for this is hire an assistant then you can take it out on him or her, also pass off any drudgery to them.)

The first thing I learned about this industry (at least in LA) is there are no weekends. It doesn't phase me having someone send me something Friday afternoon and expecting it back Monday morning, I'm just used to it. So the usual 9-5 workweek translates to a 56-hour workweek for us. And a 60-hour workweek is really only 8 1/2 hours a day, 7 days a week. That's downright leisurely if you ask me.


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## Desire Inspires (Jul 27, 2019)

chillbot said:


> Such a silly thread.



Oof!


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jul 27, 2019)

chillbot said:


> And a 60-hour workweek is really only 8 1/2 hours a day, 7 days a week. That's downright leisurely if you ask me.


Hahaha


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## JohnG (Jul 27, 2019)

Patrick de Caumette said:


> And i'd say that keeping an insane work schedule will eventually lead to illness, even if you were originally healthy and strong...



I would have replied sooner but had to unhook my iv and defibrillator.


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## Gerbil (Jul 27, 2019)

Mostly office hours (weekends only if absolutely necessary). But I only work on library music projects in addition to teaching music at a college and doing some recording as a performer. I'm not particularly interested in writing for tv or films. I don't don't count practising or composing my own music as work because I love doing it, unlike writing library/pedagogical music which is just something to earn money.

I used to work silly hours in my 20s, partly because of the additional late hours at clubs and the west end circuit, but these days I want to actually live a life. Weeks of poor sleep makes me anxious and ill. Being able to switch off at 4pm and relax is something I've really come to appreciate.


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## will_m (Jul 28, 2019)

I think its hard to quantify, do you mean actual composing time? There are loads of tasks outside of composing that take up my time and some bleed into leisure anyway, such as playing instruments, learning new skills etc.

I'd also say hours worked doesn't always correlate with output, I work maybe less than some in terms of hours but I've found I actually have better results and write better when I have some breathing space.


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 28, 2019)

Hard to say. I work in a home studio, so the work/life division doesn't really exist. Sometimes I complete a mix whilst making dinner for the kids. Does that count as work hours?


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## mikeh-375 (Jul 28, 2019)

I was on 3 timezones..Europe and both coasts of the USA. Thank f**k I don't do that anymore. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who has also had to do 24 hour and a bit slots too. You do what it takes to get to the deadline with a piece as good as it can be.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jul 28, 2019)

JohnG said:


> I would have replied sooner but had to unhook my iv and defibrillator.


I remember you telling people that congratulated you on finishing the score to "Bitch Slap" that the process almost killed you...


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## JohnG (Jul 28, 2019)

Patrick de Caumette said:


> I remember you telling people that congratulated you on finishing the score to "Bitch Slap" that the process almost killed you...



Yes, but what a title!

For me, this whole thing is pretty unhealthy, physically. Just can't help myself.


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Jul 28, 2019)

Alex Fraser said:


> Sometimes I complete a mix whilst making dinner for the kids.



Do you have any DIY tips for building a fader control into a stove top? Because I WANT THAT!


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## InLight-Tone (Jul 28, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Yes, but what a title!
> 
> For me, this whole thing is pretty unhealthy, physically. Just can't help myself.


People worry about the "race to the bottom" in terms of getting paid, while killing themselves, to get paid...


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## JohnG (Jul 28, 2019)

If we wanted to get paid, we would get actual 'jobs.' 

Like many here, I need to make a living same as anyone, but I didn't choose music through a rational process. 

This never happened: "hmm. What's the most reliable, sure-fire way to make a great living? Ah! composing music!"


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## JJP (Jul 28, 2019)

JohnG said:


> This never happened: "hmm. What's the most reliable, sure-fire way to make a great living? Ah! composing music!"


Wait...  are you saying... so it's not...?

I think I'm going to need some time to review my life choices.


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## mikeh-375 (Jul 29, 2019)

JohnG said:


> If we wanted to get paid, we would get actual 'jobs.'
> 
> Like many here, I need to make a living same as anyone, but I didn't choose music through a rational process.
> 
> This never happened: "hmm. What's the most reliable, sure-fire way to make a great living? Ah! composing music!"



LOL John.
I was too dumb to even see the pitfalls when I was young and free. I fell into it in a logical (?) way..

The Streets of Liverpool...

Eh laaah let's form a band like. (translation..gentlemen shall we see if we can make music together)
Spend £6 of parent money to buy a crappy acoustic guitar in a secondhand shop, that is actually pay for it, rather than try to steal it.
Start writing terrible songs with mate for the band...we all take guitar lessons. 
1 year later, I'm well ahead of everyone else in the band with musical learning and consider flunking all exams as I now want to go to music college.
Band decides to split over beers in the local....amicably that is. 
Music college, beer, girl, study
R.A.M. London....beer, study, beer etc.
Leave RAM, straight onto the dole. Fire off letters of introduction to studios in Soho. Get an interview...in a Pub (honestly, straight up). Pass (out) the interview. Work starts immediately. It was sheer luck that my letter arrived on the day a house composer had been fired. Many beers and hours later, I'm done with it.

Not your standard routemap, but hey, it worked for me, but if I'd have thought about it...well.


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## JohnG (Jul 29, 2019)

Awesome story, Mike. Another tale exemplifying the epitome of rational career planning.

I wonder if there is a geographical element involved? Just was in London recording and the trip featured a leitmotif that also appears in your story -- this idée fixe -- the same recurring element...


mikeh-375 said:


> beer



My first instrument purchase was also a secondhand shop of Dickensian decrepitude -- a hideously green electric guitar (no amp) that was promptly stolen from my school when I forgot it there on the weekend. Unless that was the hideous red one...long gone either way.

My grandfather (unbeknownst to me) helped with the purchase, revealing the secrets of negotiation as he pulled on his overcoat with unnecessary slowness and groped for his hat in a "grandfather is leaving now" way. I thought at first he was doing some Tedious Old Duffer thing, dragging me away from the treasure of my dreams, but then, like magic, the owner started quoting lower prices... 

The scales fell from my eyes.


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## Holden Sandman (Jul 29, 2019)

It's really hard to quantify based on hours per week. There have been times I have worked non stop recording and touring and other times where I haven't been near an instrument or studio for many months.

I have had year or more long gaps between seriously working on music and taking a break.

I've recently released a new album, there was six months of writing, recording, production and all that to reach the stage where it was released. The album before that took 18 months on and off. 

My very first appearance on a commercial album was back in 1984 and the whole recording session took 3 days. The music had been written by jamming with the band for months before that. I still get royalties and now streaming income from that very first album.

The point being many of us don't treat music like a 40 hour per week gig. At least for me it doesn't feel like a job would.


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## dgburns (Jul 29, 2019)

Music as a job seems to defy the usual association of time=money. I find it especially intriguing how it is impossible to project how much you'll make from any given piece of music. But the potential exists for returns far greater than any conventional job. 

Not to mention the satisfaction of authoring music that gets consumed by many people.


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## Denkii (Jul 29, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Awesome story, Mike. Another tale exemplifying the epitome of rational career planning.
> 
> I wonder if there is a geographical element involved? Just was in London recording and the trip featured a leitmotif that also appears in your story -- this idée fixe -- the same recurring element...
> 
> ...


This story is so heartwarming


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## Parsifal666 (Jul 29, 2019)

Seven days a week (I take a day off every couple of months). I wake up at 3:30 am here in New England and work until 10 am. Then I have the rest of the day off. Time gets radically expanded when I'm writing a symphony.


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## mikeh-375 (Jul 30, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Awesome story, Mike. Another tale exemplifying the epitome of rational career planning.
> 
> I wonder if there is a geographical element involved? Just was in London recording and the trip featured a leitmotif that also appears in your story -- this idée fixe -- the same recurring element...
> 
> ...



Ah yes, the idee fixe, developed by Beerlioz....(sorry).
I had many an after session drink in the Abbey Rd canteen/bar, it was just the thing to do. Fortunately, I had kept up with my practising at that stage and was able to perform. 

Funny how our histories tally, I had a guitar stolen too, only this time I had come home from a gig (still with my parents then) and left it in the living room and that night the house was burgled.


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## JohnG (Jul 30, 2019)

mikeh-375 said:


> Beerlioz



I think that one deserves some form of public castigation.


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## mikeh-375 (Jul 30, 2019)

JohnG said:


> I think that one deserves some form of public castigation.



Agreed....


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## dgburns (Jul 30, 2019)

OK, these days I actively aim to work the LEAST amount possible. I'll do nothing for days if I could. I don't consider putzing around in the studio work, nor is pissing around on an instrument or synth. Nor is fixing up the studio or repairing stuff. Nor is learning or keeping stuff updated or loitering at the local music stores. ( and I mean loitering ) Nor is socializing (aka schmoozing either in person or in SM) for work prospects.

Problem is, all non muso's seem to think making music is not work either. If I had a nickel for how many times an actual film/tv producer said to me-

'Oh, but you have so much fun just playing around, it's not work like the rest of us!'

It's fucking hard work, and harder still to come up with something that's actually listenable and actually useable by others, aka getting approved. Seems to be getting harder as I get older, but that's maybe because my ear has developed and pushing boundaries is sometimes a zero sum game. As in sometimes you fail spectacularly but only realize it days later.

Music is a frame of mind and sometimes it takes time, time you don't always have, to wring out the best version of what's in your head trying to come out.

Can't recount how many times this past month I've falling asleep at the desk at 3 am because I was so exhausted, popping back awake as my head fell forward. Haven't hit my head on the keyboard yet, but there's a first for everything.

That's when I know I'm done. And deja-vu every time, like groundhog day.


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## tsk (Jul 31, 2019)

rgames said:


> It depends on what you call "making a living". A living wage varies greatly by geographic location. So you need to factor that in.
> 
> However, if you write for libraries it's definitely possible to make low five figures USD with only a few hours a week on average. In actuality that equates to a few periods of 20-30 hour weeks over the course of a year and no work during the remainder. It's a pretty good side gig but I wouldn't call it a living wage in the US but it certainly can be outside the US. But add $20k from libraries to your earnings from performing and teaching and it becomes a living wage in the US with no more than the usual 40 hr/week commitment. It's still not a great living (usually...) but it's a living.
> 
> rgames



So, if a few periods of 20-30 hour weeks over the course of a year can net me low five figures, can I do ten periods a year like this and make a livable wage? Or does it not work like that?


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## Desire Inspires (Jul 31, 2019)

tsk said:


> So, if a few periods of 20-30 hour weeks over the course of a year can net me low five figures, can I do ten periods a year like this and make a livable wage? Or does it not work like that?



Low five figures is the goal post these days? Terrifying times for composers. I could cook cheeseburgers part time and make that.


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## VivianaSings (Jul 31, 2019)

I'm in my 50s and doing this for a long time. It really depends on the projects. If I can manage it, I try to restrict myself to 8 hour days 6-7 days a week but it's really fluid. Pre-production, writing, meetings with studios, all this can throw the schedule out of whack. At this point in my life, I don't even think in terms of hours. I just work until it's done. You get used to it. 

Last minute things throw everything badly out of whack. I got called last minute from someone from ESPN a few weeks ago because they needed music for a show. They had hired someone but he had crashed and burned and produced nothing in the weeks he had. They still had the same deadline except considering when they were calling me, I now had 20 hour days easily as I had roughly 3 days to produce what they had given someone else weeks to do. In that situation, 8 hour days go out the window as does eating normally and everything else associated with good health. Then you have to factor in the day or two recovery from something like that where I refuse to work so I can rebalance myself.


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## VivianaSings (Jul 31, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> Are your royalties enough to allow you to cut back on work?



Royalties aren't static. It's not a set amount of money forever - it usually decreases with time unless you're very lucky and something gets picked up again later in life (like Every Breath You Take or The Way it Is. Rappers are a gold mine for 80s songwriters). You can't rely on any royalties - all you can do is keep working and creating new royalties and saving in the hopes that when the day comes that you can't work anymore, you have enough saved and enough royalties coming in that you can ride it until you shuffle off the mortal coil. 


For example, some stuff I did in the 90s, the royalties were easily $500,000 a year for a while. That same project barely brings in $25,000 today. If I had said to myself, "$500,000 a year?! I'm never working again!" I'd be in some dire straits at the moment.


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## dgburns (Aug 1, 2019)

VivianaSings said:


> Royalties aren't static. It's not a set amount of money forever - it usually decreases with time unless you're very lucky and something gets picked up again later in life (like Every Breath You Take or The Way it Is. Rappers are a gold mine for 80s songwriters). You can't rely on any royalties - all you can do is keep working and creating new royalties and saving in the hopes that when the day comes that you can't work anymore, you have enough saved and enough royalties coming in that you can ride it until you shuffle off the mortal coil.
> 
> 
> For example, some stuff I did in the 90s, the royalties were easily $500,000 a year for a while. That same project barely brings in $25,000 today. If I had said to myself, "$500,000 a year?! I'm never working again!" I'd be in some dire straits at the moment.



PRO rates in general appear to be lower then in the good old glory days of cable tv aka the mid 90’s.

Much truth in what you wrote.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 1, 2019)

tsk said:


> So, if a few periods of 20-30 hour weeks over the course of a year can net me low five figures, can I do ten periods a year like this and make a livable wage? Or does it not work like that?



No, it does not work like that, and nothing is guaranteed unfortunately. Even if you spent 40 per week for the next year writing library tracks, you still need to get them into a decent library company. And when you do, you may not see any substantial returns for a couple of years....maybe never. The whole thing is a big crap shoot, which is why I always cringe when I hear about composers going "all in" with the hopes of writing library tracks as a primary source of income. It takes years and years to build up to that point....if you're committed; and I'd say luck plays a huge role as well.


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