# Lord Of The Rings Symphony?



## agobbett (Oct 11, 2019)

*Fellowship Of The Ring*

Hi Guys, I would like to share a WIP of my Lord Of The Rings Fellowship Of The Ring piece based off the Lord Of The Rings Symphony. This started off a while ago as a ‘lets test some new libraries’ track, but I was enjoying it so much I kept adding to it… then it turned into a 15 minute monster that i’ve been working on in between other projects. It’s purely a labour of love for the music now. I have started doing something similar with the other two movies, but one at a time is enough of a challenge for now!

I’ve gotten to a stage where i’ve heard it so many times i’m starting to lose perspective on whether it is good or not, and how I can improve it any further. So i’m hoping for some critical feedback so far on what’s not working, or how I can improve on it.

Right now i’m still in the midi/orchestrating phase and haven’t started any real mixing, apart from adding an overall reverb, and a quick EQ on the busses to sweeten it up while i’m putting it together. I’m planning on bouncing out all the mics and balancing it in a separate session. I know there’s a few things poking out here and there and a few bits that don’t stand out enough but i'm try not to get drawn into moving faders just yet.



What I would like feedback on:
- Programming, which areas can be improved, anything specific that sounds weak.
- Any transcriptions that are off? My transcription skills aren’t always the best.
- Anything else that would help me get this done!

What needs to be replaced with real musicians at some point:

Solo Vocals:
00:00 - 00:30
05:00 - 06:15
08:40 - 09:20
03:40 - 15:20

Tin Whistle:
02:50 - 04:00

Solo Violin:
03:15 - 03:50

Cheers!
Alex

*UPDATE!

The Two Towers*

Thanks for the feedback on the first track. I have tried to rebalance the brass in this piece based on comments.

This is the unmixed version using mostly default mic positions. Any feedback/comments/suggestions are welcome to help me improve the track before I begin mixing.

As with the previous track the solo vocal parts and solo violin are place holders until I find some live musicians to perform these parts (any suggestions of good places to find find musicians who would suit this?)


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## CT (Oct 11, 2019)

I tried doing this a few years ago too! I'm planning to revisit it again soon with better VI's and overall skills.

The first thing that comes to mind when listening to this: did you play these parts live, or enter them note by note? There are some moments, particularly with the brass, that feel like they need some more "live" phrasing.

Also, and this is just a bit of mockup philosophy that you might want to ignore... don't wait until bouncing a zillion stems to balance things that stick out, or are buried! Get the performance right, and you won't have to muck about with much of that, if any.


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## agobbett (Oct 11, 2019)

miket said:


> I tried doing this a few years ago too! I'm planning to revisit it again soon with better VI's and overall skills.
> 
> The first thing that comes to mind when listening to this: did you play in these parts, or enter them by hand? There are some moments, particularly with the brass, that feel like they need some more "live" phrasing.



I played in some of the simpler parts, but most of it is is drawn in. Do you have any specific sections in mind? Thanks for the feedback


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## Scamper (Oct 11, 2019)

What a project. I like it so far, sounds pretty solid and detailed. Some parts and instruments I find a bit weaker, but I guess there are also limitations of the libraries with their behaviour and sound. 
Can you list the libraries, that you have used?


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## agobbett (Oct 11, 2019)

Scamper said:


> What a project. I like it so far, sounds pretty solid and detailed. Some parts and instruments I find a bit weaker, but I guess there are also limitations of the libraries with their behaviour and sound.
> Can you list the libraries, that you have used?



Thanks Scamper. Here's the libraries i've used:

Berlin Woodwinds and Berlin Solo Woods
Cinematic Studio Brass
Berlin Percussion
Cinematic Studio Strings
Oceania Choir

Only other libraries are for specific smaller parts or solos.


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## Scamper (Oct 12, 2019)

Looks like a solid lineup.
I can't really critique much here, but there is something about the brass.
For example, in the fellowship theme at 10:17, it feels like the repetitions in the brass aren't quite snappy and present enough. Do you use the repetition shorts there?

Also, at the loudest, the brass seems a bit thin. Since CSB has such a huge dynamic range, I'm not sure if it might help to tame the dynamics a bit there. Maybe the orchestration and voicing also plays a role there, but well, I couldn't do it better.

The character of the sound surely is also personal preference and I'm not too much into the top level dynamics of CSB. So, just my thoughts here, still a great WIP mockup overall.


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## CT (Oct 12, 2019)

agobbett said:


> Do you have any specific sections in mind?



The Fellowship theme as mentioned above is one. 

Overall, it's a good work in progress, I agree, and while the transcription isn't perfect, it's a great exercise!


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## Robert_G (Oct 12, 2019)

Really nice, but you got to give the The Bridge of Khazad Dum more love. Goblin war drums and all......


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## agobbett (Oct 13, 2019)

Scamper said:


> Looks like a solid lineup.
> I can't really critique much here, but there is something about the brass.
> For example, in the fellowship theme at 10:17, it feels like the repetitions in the brass aren't quite snappy and present enough. Do you use the repetition shorts there?
> 
> ...



Thanks for the feedback, I will take another look at the brass. I'm not in the studio at the moment so i can't check what articulations I used. You're probably right about taming the dynamics, I tend to push them a bit too much on the brass in general. I think i lowered the overall volume of CSB by about 8-10db compared to the strings, but it may be better to raise the volume and lower the dynamics to get a better balance. Something I will play around with.

Regarding the brass sounding thin. If i remember I put a temporary EQ cut around 300-400hz on the buss just to cut some of the mud while im putting it together. Hopefully when I get to mixing it I can rectify this.

I will post an update when I get chance to work on it some more.


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## agobbett (Oct 13, 2019)

Robert_G said:


> Really nice, but you got to give the The Bridge of Khazad Dum more love. Goblin war drums and all......



Thanks for the feedback, more percussion can never hurt  

I will try and add some more war drums, I should have plenty of libraries to help fill this out.


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## CT (Oct 13, 2019)

I'm not familiar enough with the Cinematic Studio series to know for sure (maybe @NoamL can confirm?), but it's likely that the strings and brass are already balanced with each other, so turning the volume down on the brass means you're bringing in harsher dynamics sooner than you need to in order to stand out against the strings.


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## Architekton (Oct 13, 2019)

Excellent, what did you use for solo line around 3:20?  Well done!!!


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## synkrotron (Oct 13, 2019)

Hiya Alex 

I'm just a punter and therefore unable to provide any meaningful critique or feedback.

I'm just a massive fan of both the books and the Peter Jackson movies which is why I was drawn to this topic.

So listening to this was a total joy for me. It's been a while since I have seen the LOTR movies but I remember most of the different motifs associated with the various plots and characters.

I will have to keep a lookout for The Two Towers and The Return of the King.

cheers, and thanks  

andy


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## Go To 11 (Oct 13, 2019)

Holy smokes my man, this is incredible. Blisteringly epic climax, all the instruments sounded lifelike and real, and the parts all sounded correct. Genuinely flabbergasted, congrats. The one thought I heard during listening that I'd tweak is 3.31-3.42, the strings sounded a bit lifeless. Maybe some more movement in the dynamics would help here? Again, congrats. I can only assume this is a ton of work.


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## Scamper (Oct 13, 2019)

miket said:


> but it's likely that the strings and brass are already balanced with each other



Yeah, they are supposed to be balanced, but I think in initial tests, some people here found, that you'll get a better balance, if you turn down the brass by 6-9dB and even use the room mics for the brass.


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## agobbett (Oct 14, 2019)

Architekton said:


> Excellent, what did you use for solo line around 3:20?  Well done!!!



I used Red Room Audio's Celtic Fiddle as it has the perfect character for this type of line. But I am hoping to replace this with a live player further down the line.


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## agobbett (Oct 14, 2019)

miket said:


> I'm not familiar enough with the Cinematic Studio series to know for sure (maybe @NoamL can confirm?), but it's likely that the strings and brass are already balanced with each other, so turning the volume down on the brass means you're bringing in harsher dynamics sooner than you need to in order to stand out against the strings.



Would be good if @NoamL could give his insight. He is the master when it comes to Cinematic Studio


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## I like music (Oct 14, 2019)

I checked with Alex (the creator/dev) for the CS series, and how they are balanced. He gave some good advice, and also mentioned an update on this point. I'm just checking with him if he's OK for me to copy paste his email to me, on the forum here.


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## agobbett (Oct 15, 2019)

I like music said:


> I checked with Alex (the creator/dev) for the CS series, and how they are balanced. He gave some good advice, and also mentioned an update on this point. I'm just checking with him if he's OK for me to copy paste his email to me, on the forum here.



Let me know when you hear back, would love to hear what he says.


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## I like music (Oct 15, 2019)

agobbett said:


> Let me know when you hear back, would love to hear what he says.



I heard back from Alex. He said three things:

1) He'd rather I didn't post his response, since it would be too generalised to help with specific issues, and actually could cause issues if misinterpreted (since they were an answer to my own questions). However, he was very clear that *he'll help absolutely anyone who reaches out to him*. I'd definitely recommend doing this. He responds very quickly, and in a lot of detail.

2) He did point to this post by @NoamL , which actually might solve a lot of issues here! Definitely recommended you read this post.

3) I asked him about CSW, and he gave me a rough timeline. But I'm not saying anything on this in case it blows up causes him more CS-bump issues


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## I like music (Oct 15, 2019)

agobbett said:


> Let me know when you hear back, would love to hear what he says.



Shit man, CSS can sound absolutely gorgeous sometimes, can't it? Quite often in fact. I "removed" it from my template as it was much lighter to do SM strings + Infinite Series (RAM limitations).

Btw, what sort of balance did you have between the woodwinds and the brass strings, roughly speaking? And did you use legacy?

Super work btw. My mockup skills (and transcription skills) are absolutely nonexistant, so if I could get it anywhere near this, I'd be chuffed.


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## I like music (Oct 15, 2019)

For those interested, this was the NoamL post recommended by Alex, as a pointer:

"
Hey all, ok so this is what happened regarding CSS/CSB Volume. I emailed Alex W to say that I had been trying to set up a template in imitation of some natural-sounding orchestral scores, particularly Silvestri's _Captain America_, and found that CSB was balanced at about -6 to -10 quieter than CSS, but I couldn't nail the exact value, so I asked him what the value should "officially" be.

I don't want to reproduce the email but Alex explained the following -

1. The libraries are 100% accurate out of the box. (and with how diligently and accurately everything else about these two libraries is programmed, I believe him!!). The brass simply are "that loud" in the room, and going into each set of mics. A really ripping sound!

2. In the CSB walkthrough video, Alex decreased the master Kontakt volume -9dB to avoid clipping of multiple instances of CSB, but this was _not_ to balance CSB against CSS; both libraries should be reduced by the same amount if you're going to touch the master Kontakt volume.

3. "Correct" orchestration will take into account that the brass will be louder at the same written dynamic (ff trumpets will blow away ff strings). The top 20% of the modwheel for the brass should be used sparingly and deliberately.

4. (the key point) even though scores by Williams and Silvestri sound natural, they are still using the close mics to bring out the definition of the strings when that's needed. (I asked some other folks and they confirmed this.) This means that these film score recordings are not really accurate "Decca tree perspectives" of the orchestra, and that's why when balancing I was discovering different values from CSS/CSB out of the box. In real life, when the brass and strings are "striped" the engineer can do whatever with the two separate recordings. When the orchestra is recorded together (as in every JW score, as far as I'm aware), there will necessarily be "bleed" from all sections of the orchestra into the hall mics. But the engineer can still raise the strings against the brass & percussion by using the strings' close and section mics. A virtual emulation of this would involve keeping the Room mics at the same level for both CSS+CSB, while raising the Close and even Main mics of the strings.

So that's that  I'm gonna try the "close mic" technique while keeping the room mics level, and being very careful with the modwheel! "


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## agobbett (Oct 15, 2019)

I like music said:


> Shit man, CSS can sound absolutely gorgeous sometimes, can't it? Quite often in fact. I "removed" it from my template as it was much lighter to do SM strings + Infinite Series (RAM limitations).
> 
> Btw, what sort of balance did you have between the woodwinds and the brass strings, roughly speaking? And did you use legacy?
> 
> Super work btw. My mockup skills (and transcription skills) are absolutely nonexistant, so if I could get it anywhere near this, I'd be chuffed.



Yes, CSS is on another level for me, and seems to sound great on most things.

Regarding balance, Here's how I have my faders set at the moment...

Woodwinds Buss: -2
Individual WW's all on 0

Brass Buss: -5
Horns +1
Trumpets, Trombones, Tuba - 0

String Buss: +1
Sections all on 0

Using the Close, ORTF and Tree mics on WW all set to 0 on the updated BWW
Using the mix mics for brass and strings.

This is by no means a finished mix, this was just tweaking a few faders to get a balance while I have been putting it together.


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## agobbett (Oct 15, 2019)

I like music said:


> For those interested, this was the NoamL post recommended by Alex, as a pointer:
> 
> "
> Hey all, ok so this is what happened regarding CSS/CSB Volume. I emailed Alex W to say that I had been trying to set up a template in imitation of some natural-sounding orchestral scores, particularly Silvestri's _Captain America_, and found that CSB was balanced at about -6 to -10 quieter than CSS, but I couldn't nail the exact value, so I asked him what the value should "officially" be.
> ...



Super helpful and insightful info! Will try to incorporate it into updates I do on this


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## I like music (Oct 15, 2019)

agobbett said:


> Yes, CSS is on another level for me, and seems to sound great on most things.
> 
> Regarding balance, Here's how I have my faders set at the moment...
> 
> ...



Amazing, this is really helpful, thank you. "Balance" is my bane at the moment, and has been for years. I just don't have an internalised sense of the orchestra, to know what the right balance is.

Add to this the fact that even if I do "balance" the different sections (which happen to be from different libraries) that balance is only "correct" at certain dynamics. So for example, at FF, I may have my strings and my brass all good, but as I go down to the bottom 20% on my dynamics, it all falls apart.

I'm _sure_ there's a solution here (to make sure that there is some volume/timbral alignment). Perhaps connecting two CCs in Kontakt's automation? e.g. when MOD goes below 45, then start dropping the volume a bit etc etc? I think someone once showed me how to do this but I just can't remember how.

In any case, yours sound as balanced to me, as they come ... sounds good.

Just to confirm, you said you're using their Revive woods, and not legacy? Did you ever compare the two and have an opinion? I had to delete all the Revive samples because of Hard Drive space issues, so never ever even tested these!!!


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## agobbett (Oct 15, 2019)

I like music said:


> Amazing, this is really helpful, thank you. "Balance" is my bane at the moment, and has been for years. I just don't have an internalised sense of the orchestra, to know what the right balance is.
> 
> Add to this the fact that even if I do "balance" the different sections (which happen to be from different libraries) that balance is only "correct" at certain dynamics. So for example, at FF, I may have my strings and my brass all good, but as I go down to the bottom 20% on my dynamics, it all falls apart.
> 
> ...



Yea, I know what you mean about balance and dynamics of different libraries not matching. I've never tried the trick of linking CC's, but I guess it could work. I guess that's where picking certain libraries for certain jobs comes in handy.

Yes, I am using revive. I have heard a lot of people prefer legacy for the presence it gives. But in my case I prefer the way revive blends with the rest of the orchestra. Most of the solo sections are from the Solo expansions of BWW, with a lot of volume tweaking, since they only come with a close mic and IR of Teldex.


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## NoamL (Oct 15, 2019)

Regarding the LOTR piece, really nice work, however I believe there is a rhythm issue when the violins first play the Ring motif. You have:







I always thought it was:







Balancing libraries is such a tricky issue. CSB does have accurate volume balances out of the box, but the question is whether you want to use the same mic mix for all the instruments... I first got CSB and tried to balance it against real orchestral mixes, using the premade 3-mic mix for all the brass instruments, I thought the trumpets had too much volume and needed to be dialed back. Emailed Alex and he confirmed that everything sounds exactly as it was recorded. There is no technical issue with the library, but as a matter of taste/comparing to real scores, you may want to use mainly the wide "Room" mic position on the trumpets. A good example is this piece by Brian Tyler. You can hear that the brass sound mostly is generated by the tree mic, but (in my opinion) the horns have some section or close mic sound dialed in as well, whereas the trumpets have much less of that sound. This not only pushes the trumpets back into the room but it also lowers their total volume.



Listen to that piece at 0:58 for instance, the horns feel "closer" than the trumpets, even though they are the same distance from the tree as seen in this video:


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## agobbett (Oct 15, 2019)

NoamL said:


> Regarding the LOTR piece, really nice work, however I believe there is a rhythm issue when the violins first play the Ring motif. You have:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good spot! The amount of times i've heard this... and I still got it wrong! :D

Thanks for the confirmation on balancing. Will try and keep it all in mind when it comes to mixing. Due to computer limitations I can only really write using the main mics, then switch to three mics when bouncing each section for mixing, but it definitely makes sense - keep the Room mics at the same level, then use the Close and Main to push the instruments forward/back as needed throughout the piece.

I hear what you're saying about the close mics on the horns and trumpets. I hear it throughout the LOTR score as well, pushing the close trumpet mics back and the close horn mics forward.

The only question is do I try and get a mix for this piece before finishing the orchestration for the other two, or finish the other two then go on to mix all three together? I just wish I had more time to spend on it!


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## agobbett (Oct 25, 2019)

I have updated the original post with some more details about The Two Towers!


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## Kony (Oct 25, 2019)

agobbett said:


> Thanks Scamper. Here's the libraries i've used:
> 
> Berlin Woodwinds and Berlin Solo Woods
> Cinematic Studio Brass
> ...


Was that Dominus at the start of FOTR?

Great work btw - enjoying listening to these


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## agobbett (Oct 25, 2019)

Kony said:


> Was that Dominus at the start of FOTR?
> 
> Great work btw - enjoying listening to these



The very beginning of FOTR I used Metropolis Ark 2 women choir, insolidus, and Voices of Rapture Alto.

Thanks!


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## Scamper (Oct 25, 2019)

agobbett said:


> I have updated the original post with some more details about The Two Towers!



Again, great job with the TTT piece. I prefer the brass here compared to the first one.

Since everything is already pretty well made, I can just mention a smaller thing in the details.
There are some tenuto/portato parts, like the brass at 3:18 or the strings at 6:00, which have some space between the notes, that seems a bit hard and abrupt in the flow of the line. 
I don't know, if you intended it more like that, but the original has some soft and smooth transitions with some more decay there, which I know is pretty hard to do with samples. 
I'm curious how this is best achieved with CSB, so I might try this part myself.

Otherwise, how much time do you roughly need for one of those 15 minute pieces? Do you put in the notes by hand or do you play them in with some editing?


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## agobbett (Oct 25, 2019)

Scamper said:


> Again, great job with the TTT piece. I prefer the brass here compared to the first one.
> 
> Since everything is already pretty well made, I can just mention a smaller thing in the details.
> There are some tenuto/portato parts, like the brass at 3:18 or the strings at 6:00, which have some space between the notes, that seems a bit hard and abrupt in the flow of the line.
> ...



Thanks for the feedback! I will have another listen to those parts you mention and see if I can smooth them out, maybe using some other articulations etc.

Time wise... It's hard to say as i've been doing bits in between projects, so a couple of hours here and there. I would probably be horrified if I added up all the time I spent doing these to be honest. I mostly draw the notes in as my keyboard skills are not so hot. I did play a few lines here and there, but for me I find it quicker to put them in by hand then spend time on each individual lines CC controls to get it just right as well as shifting notes around to give a sense of realism with the playing.


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## synkrotron (Oct 25, 2019)

Excellent work again, Alex! Took me right back to Middle Earth 

Again, my skills do not allow me to critique your work and all I can say is, totally enjoyed.

Looking forward to the final LOTR instalment...

And the Hobbit stuff to, if you fancy


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## agobbett (Oct 28, 2019)

synkrotron said:


> Excellent work again, Alex! Took me right back to Middle Earth
> 
> Again, my skills do not allow me to critique your work and all I can say is, totally enjoyed.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the compliment! You can feel free to critique my work, even if your skills 'don't allow it'. Sometimes it's helpful to get less technical feedback, as this is just as important as those who go into specifics on CC's or articulations.

I hadn't thought about the Hobbit movies 😱


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