# Controversial Videogame Topic



## midphase (May 8, 2006)

Ok, I know many of you will disagree with me on this....but it drives me nuts nonetheless....here it goes (for added effect, read this with your best Lewis Black imitation) http://www.lewisblack.net/ :

I'm constantly in contact with composers who either want to desperately work in the videogame industry or that are already working and are quite accomplished that don't play videogames and their last console was an Atari 2600!!! WTF????

This is like me saying....I want to score films but I've never watched a movie in my life and I don't really care to.

It seems to me that if you are interested in composing for videogames....at the very least you should be somewhat familiar with what videogames are like nowadays. 

Many of the guys who are working on some top notch projects don't have any interest watsoever in playing games....and I say bs to that! It drives me nuts because then I hear that in the world of game development, there is somewhat of a disconnect between the programmers and the composers about how to best implement music. This is totally true in several titles where I feel like the music could be doing so much more and instead it just sits there as a lump (a beautiful lump, but a lump nonetheless). 

Every once in a while I come across some guys who really understand the medium and how the music works within it (Inon Zur comes to mind)....but for the most part I'm amazed at how many high end guys have no interest in the very videogames that they are composing for. WTF?

Am I nuts for thinking this?


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## choc0thrax (May 8, 2006)

No, you are right since I agree with you.


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## tobyond (May 8, 2006)

Hey as long as you can compose what's required it doesn't matter right? It's only music. You don't necessarily have to love what you are composing for. 
'We're only in it for the money'


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## José Herring (May 8, 2006)

tobyond @ Mon May 08 said:


> Hey as long as you can compose what's required it doesn't matter right? It's only music. You don't necessarily have to love what you are composing for.
> 'We're only in it for the money'



It's this cynical view on the music for media business that makes me wanna puke.... because it happens to be about 90% correct.  

Yes there is some joy in what we do for media but truth is if it didn't pay most people wouldn't be doing it. They'd just stick to doing music for music sake. But for many of the even best of us it's always been a gig and a way to get paid to make music. 

The other 10% is that it's actually a way to reach a lot of people, and who hasn't been flattered when somebody who knows you said they saw your name on a tv show or film. That's always fun too.

As far as games are concerned. It's not an art. C'mon guys. You don't need to be a game player to be a great game composer. Heck as long as you had the flow chart for the game that's good enough to score it. The flow chart and synopsis are usually way better than the games are anyway. Shoot 'em up stab 'em roll playing games that go on for hours :roll: Nah, you don't need to be involved in that.

Plus the technical limitations of game scoring make it pretty hard even these days for music to play that big of a roll. I say blow your wad in the opening and spend little or no time or money on the game playing loops that drone on endlessly as 12 year Johnny learns how to defeat the beast on level 3. Why would you want to spend time on that? 

Spend the time on the parts of the game where people may actually notice the music. Unfortunately that's not usually when the game is in motion.

I haven't played any video games since I was 13, but I don't think that's going to hamper my creative ability to come up with a good score. I don't even watch movies any more or TV yet I still compose music for film and tv. Personally I don't think you need to know the latest of what's going on. Save for a few composers that I really admire I'd say that I've even stopped listening to film music all together. Real music is so much better and I strive to bring real music into film. Unfortunately that means that I usually ignore most of the film music that's being done. I really haven't been to a theater to see a film since about 1996. Since then I've seen about 10 movies in the theaters. I've rented about 20 or so more in that time.

Each time I see a film one of two things happen. One, I feel I could have done a better job. Or two, if I actually like the music I immediately can trace it back to 3 or 4 scores that are more than 25 years old.


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## Evan Gamble (May 8, 2006)

I believe video games can be art if treated so, and deserve the same treatment and understanding as a movie.

If you havent played a game since you were 13 than you dont understand the manner in which it can affect real time gameplay, Giachinno showed this with his Medal of Honor scores.

There are many of ways in which the music can interact now including writing various versions of the same piece so that they seamlessly xfade each other when something happens on screen, ext.

and havent been to the theatres since 1996? dang boy-I practically live at the theatre....love it.


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## Scott Cairns (May 8, 2006)

Ive done nearly 20 game titles now for various game developers and publishers. I can tell you, its a very clicky and very young industry.

At the very least, you need to be able to talk on the same level as the audio director, audio programmer, project lead and so on. If they say; "we're looking for music, reminiscent of Command and Conquer Generals" it helps to know what they're talking about.

Another thing in this industry - dont wear a suit. Ever. 

I once attended a full boardroom meeting at a game devs office, I was told I would be meeting the owner of the company, the project director and so on.

They were all wearing board shorts and looked ready for the beach. they ribbed me about my suit and called me a lawyer. :lol: 

Both the owner and p.d. were younger than me too.

Lastly, I attended a talk at a conference by the head of DirectX for Microsoft. He'd flown half way around the world to give it and did so in a skull and crossbones t-shirt.

I love this industry.


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## José Herring (May 8, 2006)

Evan Gamble @ Mon May 08 said:


> I believe video games can be art if treated so, and deserve the same treatment and understanding as a movie.
> 
> If you havent played a game since you were 13 than you dont understand the manner in which it can affect real time gameplay, Giachinno showed this with his Medal of Honor scores.
> 
> ...



I'll sooner or later make it back to the theaters. But right now, I just have more things to do.


I'll check out Medal of Honor. I have a few fixed ideas about games going back about 10 years. Maybe things have changed.

Best,

Jose


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## Stephen Rees (May 9, 2006)

Alex W @ Tue May 09 said:


> Games are art, as is the process of composing music for them. The more you know about games from all genres and eras, the more effective your scoring will be. It's that simple.



Succinctly put and I agree 100%. As for games as 'Art'..........off the top of my head I'd pick 'Ico', 'Final Fantasy X' and 'Project Zero' as examples, but that is just from the few games I have played recently. There must be countless others. Games that are not only visually stunning, but have stories and gameplay that rival the emotional experience of seeing a great movie easily (although 'Ico' has very little music in it - but then sound design is an art too).


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## Synesthesia (May 9, 2006)

josejherring @ Tue May 09 said:


> I really haven't been to a theater to see a film since about 1996. Since then I've seen about 10 movies in the theaters. I've rented about 20 or so more in that time.



That explains a lot! :wink:


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## Waywyn (May 9, 2006)

I agree with midphase.
If you are a game composer you should at least know what you are doing.
Besides that it personally gives me so much more insight to a game if i can quickly run through a beta or see some pictures or videos of it.

If someone is just doing it for the money and don't care what he is doing music for ... hmm ... kinda sad.


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## José Herring (May 9, 2006)

Synesthesia @ Mon May 08 said:


> josejherring @ Tue May 09 said:
> 
> 
> > I really haven't been to a theater to see a film since about 1996. Since then I've seen about 10 movies in the theaters. I've rented about 20 or so more in that time.
> ...



Alright! That's It!!. The gloves are comin' off.

You want to know why I lost interest. I consider myself a fine artist. 90% of movies and almost all of games(not that I know too much about games) but from what I've seen falls way below the level of fine art and into the level of commercial products.

So, you wanna call games an art go ahead. Knock yourself out. Just talk to your average consumer of games and I doubt that he thinks it's art. I know that this is going to piss a lot of people off, but oh well.

Game composers write great music. That's for sure. There's even some pretty decent story lines in games. But c'mon people. 90% of it is just stab 'em shoot 'em stuff. Not really anything else. 10% is perhaps artistic.

So what's the difference? What is fine art vs. commerical art? Fine art has something to say. There's a message in it. It's trying to communicate something. Commercial art is trying to be snazzy, bigger, badder than ever so as to pull in the almighty buck. *So it robs from legit art in order to make some gorry ass depravity palitable to the masses.* So yeah it uses art but never really comes up to a full artistic statement about 90% of the time.

So I haven't really seen a movie in a theater in about 10 years. I've seen some, but mostly it's the same scores over and over and over and over. So yeah. I lost interest. And accepted this business for what it was. 10% fine art and 90% commercial enterprise. Every once in a while a Matrix comes along. It had a viewpoint it had something to say. The guys we're artist trying to make a point. Then following is 90 Matrix rip offs that have nothing to say. That are bigger and badder and mean absolutely nothing. They're commecial product trying to capitalize off of one artistic breakthrough. So I skip the 90 AeonFlux type movies and see the one Original.

So far out of all of you Scott is the only one that makes sense. Sure you have to know your field so that if somebody comes up to you and says I need a score like so and so and such and such, you'll at least know what they're talking about.

But get real.

When you're studying real art you spend hours upon hours years and years and years of study to try to get up to the level of technical expertise and communicative power that somebody like Stravinsky or Shostakovich or Copeland could obtain. Perhaps someday we'll make it. Or perhaps not.

But c'mon.

I really don't think you have to bury your head in some roll playing game to be a good game composer. You really don't. And really even the great John Williams had said that he's not too interested in film but rather music.

So my official statement is this. If I got a game gig, I'd do the normal research and bang out a professional score. I certainly don't think that I'd have to emmerse myself in Dungeons and Dragons to write a good score for Dungeons and Dragons. And I certainly don't think that even liking video games is a prerequisit for writing good game music any more than loving trailers is a prereq to writing good trailer music or loving Honda commercials....ect.......

But to me games and about 90% of movies are no more art than the Space Mountain ride at Disneyland. Sure it uses art, but in the end it's more product than meaningful statements about things.

So, if you want to call games and movies art then go ahead. You may find one or two that actually are, but mostly you'll find 1000 that mostly aren't. So care about the one or two that actually are and take the money and kick back and have fun with the 998 Thunder Mountain rides.


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## Evan Gamble (May 9, 2006)

parts what you say is true jose-you dont need to research Dungeons and Dragons to write a good video game score.

But It seems that you have developed a very cynical (and VERY understandable veiw of film)

but when in the past year these films have come out..

Jarhead
Crash
Walk the Line
Good Night and Good Luck
Copote
Munich
Thank you for Smoking
United 93
Paradise Now
Geisha
(and these are just off the top of my head)

Than the more commercial bigger, badder films such as Batman and King kong that were just fun-but not very original.

I dont see how you can think there isnt a reason to go to the theatre.

(no sarcasm intended I am curious as to how many of these you have seen, cause if you haven't check em out  )

and though williams might have said he isnt always interested in film, just the music-he also told Spielberg he needed a better composer than him for Schindler's List to which Steven replied "yes, but they are all dead"-maybe he's right :roll: )


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## Waywyn (May 9, 2006)

well, you could even come down to a much more radical way:

all music which has been written today is just crap, because everything which is done today, was done before, so basically everything is kinda stolen or redone in another way.

there are only 12 notes and mostly 3/4 and 4/4 rhythm, so thats about it.

jose, i understand you in some parts, you don't have to crouch 20h a day through dungeons and know all sword moves of fighting games only to make good music for game x or y.
but at least you have to put in some passion in your work. you just can't do a spot for a racing car when you never had the chance to get a 200 km/h drive.

or much more simple, you can talk about sex if you never had a fuck before.


another thing which i get kinda sick of is, that i all the time hear that real art and the high magic of music is just done by all those composers and dudes who are already dead now. i really hate that. oh, you could never get into mozarts music ... blabla (jose, i am not offending you, but you just named it kinda ) ... i think fuck mozart, he did of course some cool stuff but he was a fucking popper. he was a popguy, he did commercial classic. so i really get kinda sick when hearing people mentioning the old "masters" and nothing can't compare to them. the world continues and live too, let's rock on and get somewhere.

i think there is sooooo much beautiful music today, even in games.
of course the most gamers don't care about the music and turn on Depeche Mode while playing an RPG in the middleage, but that is not our fault.

another thing is, that developers always have a word on the music. if they don't want orchestral stuff in their games or ask to leave out woodwinds, because they don't like the high sound of it - then okay, we have to do it.
if somebody asks about doing kind of a Badelt/Carribean mockup, then fine - i have to do that and not sit down and have 6 months to bring out the most beautiful score in the world.

also i have to agree with you. there are a lot of composers who just downloaded a copy of cubase, found some cool samples libs on emule or had the chance to buy an expensive library only because the grandma passed away ... and then doing gigs on game companies and finally get the gig because they charge like 10 bucks for a minute of finished music.

well, i just kinda emptied my head


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## Daryl (May 9, 2006)

midphase @ Mon May 08 said:


> Ok, I know many of you will disagree with me on this....but it drives me nuts nonetheless....here it goes (for added effect, read this with your best Lewis Black imitation) http://www.lewisblack.net/ :
> 
> I'm constantly in contact with composers who either want to desperately work in the videogame industry or that are already working and are quite accomplished that don't play videogames and their last console was an Atari 2600!!! WTF????
> 
> ...


I don't think that you're nuts, well not on this issue anyway!! It seems strange to me that someone would compose for a medium in which they have no knowledge, but it's no different from a composer writing orchestral music who knows nothing about orchestras. I think that there are many of these working in film, so that this sort of arrogance should spread into the game composing community is no surprise to me.

D


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## Evan Gamble (May 9, 2006)

hey alex you know I meant the "no good composers around anymore" thing sarcastically-used the wrong emocon though :lol: 

now I changed it-oh internet communication sucks a big one


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## Waywyn (May 9, 2006)

hi evan, well simple explanation. we posted at the same time i was to lazy to quote. so generally the post should have come exactly right after jose's


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## navidson (May 9, 2006)

> Succinctly put and I agree 100%. As for games as 'Art'..........off the top of my head I'd pick 'Ico', 'Final Fantasy X' and 'Project Zero' as examples, but that is just from the few games I have played recently. There must be countless others. Games that are not only visually stunning, but have stories and gameplay that rival the emotional experience of seeing a great movie easily (although 'Ico' has very little music in it - but then sound design is an art too).



Just to continue this point a little bit - there are countless games that are the equivolent of a mars bar fried in batter on the market, especially since the Playstation and Xbox became cool, but there are still games that truly are works of art. If you've ever experienced Grim Fandango, I'm sure you'd agree.


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## Waywyn (May 9, 2006)

right, also there would be the music of:

- outcast (played live by the moscow's)

- arcanum (string quartet only, but very cool)

- morrowind (might hear the samples, but who cares, the theme is great tho)

- quite some final fantasy tunes, especially "theme of aeris" and "highwind takes the skies"


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## Toxeen (May 9, 2006)

Midphase. Playing and being addicted to games through almost all eras, back to the Atari 2600 and composing music for games about 7 years right now (I'm at the age 23) - I second your words, truely.
A lot is said. Additionally, it's kind of a moral question. Doing a tough job you are seriously qualified for - or not. Who decides about that ? Producers, managers (who are less keen on gaming). All this is about commercial aims and aspects. Names sell. 

Another thing is the technical aspects. Games are interactive (what's the most big difference in comparison to movies). We have to be aware of triggered events, unexpected things to happen which are in control of the gamer himself.

We are talking about non-gamer-musicians, actually doing music for games (which is kind of insane, of course). Let's have a look at the film world. Producers won't be interested in anyone without a proven trackrecord, including only films, films, and films ! Now let's turn this around to the game world. Get the point ?

Keep in mind, that there is an additional trend of using licensed music from every corner (Pop, Rock, Techno). Have a look at FIFA or Need for Speed. Electronic Arts is a great example for this. 

All in all, for me, that's not a reason to turn on waters, yet . There are lots of talented guys out there, even around here!

Great musicians experienced to the realms of game development are always fuckin* better.


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## Craig Sharmat (May 9, 2006)

I have now composed for 3 game titles, have very little desire to play a game and have not seen anything I have composed to after the fact. The main reason I have no desire is that I consider playing games a huge waste of time.

I own a nintendo 64 and a PS2 and after spending about 2 hundred hours playing games, I deceided this is not what I need to be doing. I started writing for games about 3 yrs after putting in my final adventure minute.

If one is given a storyboard,pictures and directon, I do not see why being a game player is of much importance, unless there are technical requirements beyond the music. If one was suddenly to get a job scoring for a reality show, is it neccasary to continually watch reality shows to understand how to score them, I think not.

Just for clarification, I find almost every game I have seen to be a work of art. It's obvious a lot of time and effort go into making each title. I just do not have time to engage in an effort to get through different levels. Maybe I will rent a kid down the street in the future.


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## PaulR (May 9, 2006)

josejherring @ Mon May 08 said:


> I'll check out Medal of Honor. Jose



You'd be better off checking out Band of Brothers.


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## Dr.Quest (May 9, 2006)

Jose,
I usually don't join into these free for all's but some of what you say strike me as just wrong. You say you don't go to movies because you've HEARD all the scores before. I hate to be the one to point this out but a movie is a story that has many elements. It's not just a score with pictures attached. If that's the reason you go to a movie then you are missing a lot. I'm sure that's not what you really meant though.
Also, you say you are a fine artist, which is fine. But to make a living doing the big movies it seems you have to get past that. You are working in Hollywood and most of what comes out of there is commercial-bottom-line-money-making pape. But there have been some fine movies this year and many in the last 10.
Get out there a see some of the good ones.
Just my opinion of course.  
Cheers,
J


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## Waywyn (May 9, 2006)

Craig Sharmat @ Tue May 09 said:


> I have now composed for 3 game titles, have very little desire to play a game and have not seen anything I have composed to after the fact. The main reason I have no desire is that I consider playing games a huge waste of time.
> 
> I own a nintendo 64 and a PS2 and after spending about 2 hundred hours playing games, I deceided this is not what I need to be doing. I started writing for games about 3 yrs after putting in my final adventure minute.
> 
> ...



Yeh, Craig, i completely understand this, but the little difference is that you know about what's going on. You know about games, how they work and obviously you played "a while here and there" 

I also stopped playing World of Warcraft, since it took too much time of it. I take the time to do more important things (like studying EIS )

But generally there are people out there who earn money with composing for games and literally think that a joystick has something to do with sexual fulfillment ... and imho that's not right.


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## tgfoo (May 9, 2006)

I do agree that you don't necessarily have to be a gamer in order to compose for games. But, I think that you should at least have played some games and having an understanding for them. It's like someone wanting to compose for films who's never watched a movie before.


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## Waywyn (May 9, 2006)

... as for the games again, Jose.

If you are working as a game composer it doesn't mean you have to love games or see art in Unreal 3 or whatever.

I think (and the others) it is just necessary that if doing a job for a game to have at least some experience what a 3rd person shooter or a MMORPG is. It could get pretty awkward to ask the developer, "well whats MMORPG" ... he would instantly go "wow, ... and that's a game composer i was refered to?"

I know that this example might be a little bit stupid, but at least you should get into a little bit of the material. If i have to do a clip for NASA, it gives you some more feeling and inspiration if you at least watched a few of those rocket starts and documentations from the moon or space etc.

... or a rather extreme example, you can't be a good psychologist if you are not willing to talk to your individual patient with the argue: "well i know humans and i studied psychology, that should be enough"


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## Waywyn (May 9, 2006)

oh by the way, here is a really good example of, i think, extremely well done game music:

http://www.outcast-thegame.com/gallery/index.htm

click on audio and listen to some stuff.


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## José Herring (May 9, 2006)

That is good. Like I said earlier I do think that the music in games is good.

Jose


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## midphase (May 9, 2006)

> If you are working as a game composer it doesn't mean you have to love games or see art in Unreal 3 or whatever.



I think it helps. I don't think you have to be obsessed with games, but I think ejoying them as a form of entertainment would probably give you that added incentive to work harder to make the music more compelling.

I score films and I love films, I love my Netflix because I get to catch up on movies at my own pace. I also do TV work and I love TV (some not all), but I think I have a good blend of likes in the TV world which allows me to keep an ear out for all the current trends (adverts, reality TV, drama, news, etc).

I also love videogames, although my work in the interactive medium represents a small chunk of my business. I like to think that I am a good catch for a game developer since I have a good understanding of how to implement music ideas into the interactive experience and I know what the other guys are doing to push the technology further vs. someone who has never played a game in their life....maybe I'm wrong on my assumption.


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## José Herring (May 9, 2006)

I don't think you're wrong Midphase. 

It all comes down to a person's basic purpose. When I first started to do all this I was bound a determined to bring concert music into the media scene. So of course I paid most attention to concert composers and film composers like Bernard Herrmann and Jerry Goldsmith and John Williams. I specifically didn't pay any attention to rock based or record based composers. I could have cared or less that Hans Zimmer was a Video killed the Radio Star composer.

Ultimately though, Hans Zimmer became so big that I had to pay attention to at least a little bit of what he was doing to find out why he was so popular amongst filmmakers. The more I studied his work the more I became to admire mostly his production techniques. Now I figured out why he is who he is and I actually admire him more these days.

It's the same as games. Yes, if you're going to work in games some understanding of the medium is necessary. In the quest for understanding you'll find some things to like about it. So much the better.

Jose


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## fictionmusic (May 9, 2006)

Well in order to write for any media you need to understand it, so as far as that goes I guess you need to be aware of video games and the culture that surrounds it...but as far as writing to picture and underscoring the dramatic content, it is more a matter of talent and insight than video game chops. Someone who has never played a game or knows what the main titles are, could easily score a video if they were aware of drama and what is needed musically to drive a scene, in fact, I'd say sometimes the complete novice is capable of breaking away from the conventions that, good or bad, permeate most industries.

As far as ART goes....my wife plays video games constantly (although I don't...I haven't the time nor the inclination) so I have seen and heard quite a bit of it and I am far from convinced it is art. The whole craft might be considered an art (as in the art of making video games etc) and certainly there are very talented people doing them, and a lot of creativity in them, but I think ART is something more than just that. Commercials have as much of an art to them, but I don't know anyone who would call that ART.


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## Waywyn (May 9, 2006)

to be honest i found writing music to a movie easier than writing music for games.

of course you have to be aware to get the grip and the vibe of a scene and support the character or the situation, but in games music you have to care about the interactive content.

you have to take care that each track could blend nicely into each other. you have to create hi and low versions of the same music just in case if the action is reduced for a few seconds the track should be able to get softer. not only softer in volume but there should be less percussions or aggressive instruments, just in case a battle is over and so on.

so just for me personally it is harder or more complicated to create music for a game rather than doing it for a movie scene. the scene is always the same, when you watch that movie, the next time character x always dies at the same spot at the same time. the movie always ends like all the time etc. ... sounds veeeery logic :roll:  ... but in games it is different all the time.


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## Ed (May 9, 2006)

josejherring @ Tue May 09 said:


> Ultimately though, Hans Zimmer became so big that I had to pay attention to at least a little bit of what he was doing to find out why he was so popular amongst filmmakers. The more I studied his work the more I became to admire mostly his production techniques. Now I figured out why he is who he is and I actually admire him more these days.



Not only production, he's a really good *FILM *composer.


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## Waywyn (May 9, 2006)

Ed @ Tue May 09 said:


> josejherring @ Tue May 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Ultimately though, Hans Zimmer became so big that I had to pay attention to at least a little bit of what he was doing to find out why he was so popular amongst filmmakers. The more I studied his work the more I became to admire mostly his production techniques. Now I figured out why he is who he is and I actually admire him more these days.
> ...



yeh indeed, his music might not be sophisticated and complicated or whatever. it just simply fits to the scenes and provides 100% the vibe it needs. in my eyes that's like 100% job done.


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## Ed (May 9, 2006)

Waywyn @ Tue May 09 said:


> yeh indeed, his music might not be sophisticated and complicated or whatever. it just simply fits to the scenes and provides 100% the vibe it needs. in my eyes that's like 100% job done.



Exactly. If mozart were around today, just because his music is technically brilliant doesnt mean he will ever be a good *film *composer. A film composers job is so much more than just good music, that actually its rather secondary to their role. If you create art or something really special along the way thats a plus.


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## José Herring (May 9, 2006)

Waywyn @ Tue May 09 said:


> Ed @ Tue May 09 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Tue May 09 said:
> ...



But there's also musical integrity. We could as film composers completely sell into the idea that music only should fit the picture but for me that's betraying music a bit.

Music to me is one of the few artforms that actually can stand on it's own. Every other artform needs music (expect for paintings and photography, but if you could put music to a still picture in a gallery I'm sure people would). We don't need other art forms. We can do great art on our own.

Which brings me back to Bernard Herrmann. There was a CD at the New York Library for the Performing Arts that had him talking about film scoring. It's a rare thing and I'm lucky to have heard it. Bernie said that he considers film music as follows. He said that you can have two things, you can have music that fits the picture and you can have music that fits the picture but is also stellar music, but you can't have stellar music that doesn't fit the picture in film. Then he goes on to say if you can write stellar music that fits the picture then you really can have something special.

I'm not saying that that doesn't happen today but it is certain that having music just to go along with the picture is the dominant thing these days. But, I hate the idea of betraying music like that. With a little study and effort you can rise above writing mere film music and truly write something great.


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## Evan Gamble (May 9, 2006)

interesting points- I too think that it would be betraying music to an extent

Balancing originality/technicallity to whats on screen is a diffult judgement call-but I think it adds ALOT of class to a picture when te soundscape is its own original statement.

But as we know some flicks ust dont deserve this much thought


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 12, 2006)

> Ive done nearly 20 game titles now for various game developers and publishers. I can tell you, its a very clicky and very young industry.



Hopefully there aren't very many black or Jewish people involved? They're almost as bad as people over 40.


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## Scott Cairns (May 12, 2006)

Huh?


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## midphase (May 13, 2006)

ahhh...that elusive sarcasm!


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## Lex (May 13, 2006)

josejherring @ Tue May 09 said:


> tobyond @ Mon May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey as long as you can compose what's required it doesn't matter right? It's only music. You don't necessarily have to love what you are composing for.
> ...




Scary! :shock: 

Alex


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## Aaron Sapp (May 13, 2006)

Spend some time playing Myst IV, Uru, Half-Life 2, Zelda: OOT, and Final Fantasy. They're as much an artform as any movie out there. But like movies, there are crap games, and good games. Like scores, there are ESPECIALLY CRAPPY game scores, and incredibly good ones.

I have a different appreciation for games now than I did when I was twelve (not that long ago...:razz. At that age you really have nothing to concern yourself over except on how to defeat Ganon and gather enough rupees to buy a fire tunic from one of the Gorons (or was it given to you? I forget...). So it was really easy to get absolutely immersed in that. I wasn't into music nearly as much at that time, so I never critically listened to the music, or analyzed this, or analyzed that. I just had no inclination to do so. I just took it in. The music did what it was supposed to. It set the mood. But I remember (this is gonna sound gay) how 'magical' some stages _felt_. I don't remember many specifics about the game, but I do remember more than anything else the texture/tone/atmosphere of each stage in the game - largely attributed to the score. 

I think that's the motivation behind my desire to compose for games rather than film. I really appreciate the medium and understand how effective it can be. Film is great since you're composing to "moments." With a great game, a score can do the same. Maybe you're walking around some hilly mountains at twilight. An airy, ethereal score coupled with good sound design can create a sense of reflection, solitude -- creating a 'moment'. Or maybe a swashbuckling score - revving you up to fight some bad guys. Or a chop-chop-time-is-running-out score. Or maybe no score! - with just great sound design of wind blowing through the trees, birds chirping, crickets slowly creeping in, zombies coming out of the ground, ect.


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## Scott Cairns (May 14, 2006)

Well said Aaron. 

I do think that some games are pushing the boundaries and creating some incredible experiences for the player, in the near future (perhaps even now?) a good game has the ability to involve you even more than a film I believe.

But I also agree that some games are crap and some (probably most) are made to be taken lightly.

It actually helps me in a funny way when creating audio content (music, sfx voice over, etc) that it IS just a game. I find I can take it less seriously and seem to do a better job without the added (self inflicted) pressure. :smile:


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## José Herring (Nov 10, 2006)

I think many valid points where made. We just all lost interest in the topic before it was truly over imo.

I don't mean to come down hard on any valid work in this industry. I just have a hard time believe the idea that it's all art or artistic. A lot of video games are just action games. I have a hard time believing that Grand Theft Auto has any higher artistic purpose or that one has to immerse himself in Grand Theft Auto type games to write Grand Theft Auto music.

This isn't any kind of knock on Video games in general. Some of them are extremely fun to play. But I don't think one has to love commercials to write good commercial music, or love kids films to write great Disney music nor do I think that games of non stop violence or porn movies are at all art forms.

Just my opinion. Not that absurd. I think I make good points. If you don't agree then I can accept that too. :smile: 

Jose


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## iocomposer (Nov 10, 2006)

What is absurd is that you're looking onto the game industry from an ignorant perspective. You don't play games, you don't value games, you don't understand games. So why shoot your mouth off about something that you know nothing about? 

I just released one of the most violent games in the history of the industry (you know...the one that's all over the news and has people standing in line all over the world to purchase it). If you don't consider it high art, then you're simply ignorant. The people who made this game are some of the most accomplished artists in the world. 

I do not need to defend what I do because the numbers say it all. Entertainment is only entertainment if people want to be entertained by it. 

-Jamey


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## Aaron Sapp (Nov 10, 2006)

You gotta be talking about "Gears of War." I saw the videos. 

:shock: :shock: :shock: 

Gotta be one of the prettiest games out there now.


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## iocomposer (Nov 10, 2006)

Thanks! Apparently you're not the only one who thinks so! 

http://www.metacritic.com/games/platfor ... gearsofwar


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## Waywyn (Nov 10, 2006)

Well, I could understand kinda if someone thinks that games is not art like a Monet or Munch painting etc. (but still I think, that sure it is, because a lot of designer and creative people are working on that such a project for months/years).

... BUT, just my opinion, if somebody is working in the game industry he should at least know what it's all about.

It could get really awkward, if the developer talks about " ... a bit of RTS, crossed with some elements of MMORPG, that they already use shader 3.0 etc." ... and the composer goes like .... "uhm, woot? I thought you want music only"

I mean, if you go to a BBQ restaurant and the cook never tastes his sauces and the meals in general, because he is a vegan. I mean how can he make his meals perfect?

Of course it is not that you have to play everything which was released on earth since 15 years, but I think you have to have at least a bit of passion about what you are doing and what do you do it FOR.

I think it is like with everything, if you don't have a passion for your job, you are not that creative like someone who has. Period!


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## kid-surf (Nov 10, 2006)

I don't play video games because I'm not interested in spending my free time that way. If I've got time I'm gonna go surf, not sit in front of the TV playing video games. Honestly, i don't "get" the video game craze.... but I do respect the effort/talent it takes to get them out there. (and I understand the scope of the business)

So... no, i'll never do a video game. I really have no interest.

Fine Art? In Hollywood? I don't think one should set out to be a film composer if they are a "fine artist". I mean you are writing music (even on the biggest films) against actors that were waiting tables a few years go in many cases. And against some who have never had any training whatsoever. Then you've got the other numerous people involved in the film with less experience then you have in music.

You started writing music at ____ young age. The director directed their first film at, what 20+. So they have, what, a few hundred hours experience behind the camera as opposed to your 30-50,000 hours or musical experience that you live every single day -- they doing a film once every couple years or so. And all the 'suits' on the pic started their gig in Hollywood at what? 24-25, and have never "created" anything, and don't really 'get' what that really means anyway.. or there wouldn't be these ridiculous deadlines to "create" music. (don't lead yourself to believe that this is a respected role in the film process)

I mean? Why worry about fine art in Hollywood. These people aren't even secure enough in their own point of view to even "evaluate" a composer based on "skill/voice". Otherwise it wouldn't be a credit based industry. Because out in the real world no one cares who the composer is, only who's staring. It's obviously not about name recognition with composers (not to anyone but other composers). It's about who is tried and true... who is "safe". Or to say it another way.... "I don't know what I'm doing when choosing a composer, I don't have much of a point of view when it comes to music so I'll decide on credits, because I just don't know and I'm stressed out that this film is gonna flop, then I'll get fired".

Meanwhile the viewing public casually strolls into the theater and doesn't even "hear" the music for the most part. They are deciding the worth of films based on the storyline and how well the actors do. (yet they inadvertently give the actors credit for the storyline -- as if they had made it up as they went along. Not intentionally, they just aren't capable of conceptualizing the screenwriter's contribution. That's why people don't follow screenwriters and decide what films they'll see that way, they follow actors. The screenwriter is invisible to these people....) These average citizens also don't know what a producer does, and sometimes confuse the roles of director and producer. They essentially know what acting is and not much more. 

So unfortunately our "fine art" goes largely unnoticed be the people "paying" to view these films. Not to mention the industry people. They don't listen either... unless they are a composing agent or music supervisor. Even then, they're on their blackberry anyway. 

Talk to some real players in the industry (who aren't composers or directors) and you'll see how little music means to these people. They really don't care that you are passionate about your music. Not really. That's not what this is about to them.......

*So here we are back at: * The only people who really give a shit are other composers. We are our own fans. The way it's always been.

And yet, I'm not sure I care all that much what other composers think of my stuff anyway.... 



Hollywood is the wrong place to think about art in a purist sense..... not if you wanna retain your sanity. I say be a concert composer (or join a band) if you feel the need to spotlight your talent and get the praise you feel you 'deserve', because it's highly unlikely in a Hollywood setting. Aside from the non-redeemable Hollywood air-kisses you'll receive along the way.


So.... a blue collar composer getting good gigs is a dude I respect. Regardless of whether or not they are a musical genius. 


But nope.. I'm not cynical. I love Hollywood, I was born here. But it is what it is...... 


Oh.... and the ART part comes into play once the film wins the Oscar. THEN you are a "fine artist" in their eyes. At least untill you do another bad film. The cycle begins again.


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## sbkp (Nov 10, 2006)

Hey, Waywyn, what do you have against us vegans?


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## Brian Ralston (Nov 10, 2006)

Kays...I would have to mostly disagree with your premise here. And actually, I agree a lot with what Kid said. While having intimate knowledge and apprecition for video games might make scoring music to a video game easier for a composer, I don't think it makes it impossible. 

With much respect for you and the many composers who also score games out there...I have to think that this kind of belief is derived more out of fear than anything else. Fear of the market flooding with competent composers, where before the video game community is a pretty tight knit group. Fear of the recent trend of getting larger named composers and more TV and Film guys to do video games. Fear of not being able to compete with those reputations. Fear of not understanding why the video game industry would even begin to consider using a film/tv guy for thier game when there are so many other competent, seasoned game composers already there. 

Well...the reason is money. Which shows that to the game companies, it is not about the art. It is about the money...the business. This is no different than Hollywood. To the game designers, the artists, the creative folks...it is about the art. To a video game company...it is about making money. Bigger names involved in the project draw bigger demographics and thus larger revenues. More units sold is the goal. No matter how that happens...film composer score...better graphics...better game play, etc...

And, if you make that argument...that unless you love, live and breathe video games you should not be scoring them...then you have to accept the reverse is true with films and Television. Then no video game composer ever should score a film or a TV show because afterall...what does a guy who plays games all day and has never scored a theatrical release film know about writing music for films? And yet...I would bet that most every "game guy" here would jump at the bit to score a huge feature film if given the chance.

To most composers...music is music. In games and in film/television, the purpose is similar. The music is the emotion...it sets the tone. It changes the mood, it presents a theme. It supports what is being presented visually on the screen. For that reason, while there are some different aspects to deliverables for video games (as there are for 35mm films, tv, direct to video movies), the underlying purpose of the music is roughly the same. For that reason, I think composers who have little interest in video games could very well score them successfully as long as they understand the purpose for the music being there in the first place and as long as they are on the same page as the developers. If the developers are happy, then they must be doing something right as far as they are concerned...otherwise it would not be happening with increasing frequency.


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## Waywyn (Nov 10, 2006)

A few more thoughts here:

You don't have to be a hardcore addict gamer, 350 kilo on weight and who thinks walking is extreme sports.

I am, for my part, just saying, you have to know what you are doing and have to have passion for it.

How can I create a big epic roleplaying/fantasy score if I don't pay attention to those kind of games ... or movies .. or the characters in general (which you obviously meet in movies or games ... classical heros with long swords are a bit rare in real life ).

How can you do creepy dungeon music if you never sneaked through a cool games underworld and you start to hear your heart pounding ... or on the other side .., if you never watched a movie like this ... or again ... did it on your own in real life, ... sneaking at night through a castles catacombs. This is a whole different experience.

*Why did some many writers/producers/artists lived in the jungle or spend hours in a coalmine down below earth to write a even more realistic book?*

Finally it all belongs together, movies, games, theatre, real life experience etc.


Thats why I am just convinced that your music is better if you can identify with the project.

Of course you could go like, it's all about the money. Sure, everything in job and bizz is just about money.
But even when it has to go fast and there is not much preparation time I at least ask for screenshots, how the characters look I have to write themes for ... and as soon as I see pictures, my brain starts to work and everything comes out just like this.
Sometimes I don't even need to think about, it seems my head is just a conversion tool, transforming pictures/sketches/walkthroughs/storieboards into music.

Maybe I am rare and people go "damn, what a creep, I would never spend my time which that shit" ... but I am proud of it and I think it puts some more magic into a project. Of course I have to live and eat, but at least for me it is NOT always about just the money.


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## tgfoo (Nov 10, 2006)

I tend to agree with Waywyn. I don't think that it's necessary to be a gamer in order to be a composer for games, but I think having a good knowledge of games would definitely be helpful. To me it seems like a game composer who never plays game would be like a film composer who never watches movies. Though, I'm curious how many game composers actually play the games that they compose for.


@ Jamey
Gears of War looks awesome. My friend has been telling me I need to buy it for the past month. Looks like you had some fun recording some of the sound sfor the game too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qsn89GTysY

:smile:


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## Brian Ralston (Nov 10, 2006)

tgfoo @ Fri Nov 10 said:


> I tend to agree with Waywyn. I don't think that it's necessary to be a gamer in order to be a composer for games, but I think having a good knowledge of games would definitely be helpful. To me it seems like a game composer who never plays game would be like a film composer who never watches movies. Though, I'm curious how many game composers actually play the games that they compose for.



Saying that having experience with videos games would be of benefit is something I said and agreed with to a point. But still...the original contention Kays brought up I believe should really be directed at the game developers who do the hiring. It is not about composers taking the gig without any game experience..."how could they think they could do a good job"...type stuff. It is about game developers who are hiring composers to score their game from "outside" the tight knit group of established game composers who don't really have any personal affinity towards games. A composer is being asked to write music to underscore dramatic imagery. Plain and simple. They are not going to approach it any differently and of course most will take the gig to put bread and water on the table. Especially in this day and age where there is a lot of money to be made in game development. 

The argument of not being able to effectively score a scene without having personal experience with it I don't agree with either. 

So...if I have to score a movie scene or a game scene that portrays a gun fight...I can't "nail it" until I have actually been caught up in a gun fight? I can't nail a movie about divorce unless I have gone through one and know what emotions and feelings I had in real life??? I can't score a game level where the main character is going through a dark cave without having gone through a dark cave myself? Or even...without having played a game about going through dark caves??? I just don't buy it at all. Creative folks like us having imaginations. And it is relying on those imaginations that usually comes up with something unique and different...as opposed to doing what some other game or some other movie has done. We all can imagine in our own minds what those experiences would be like and draw from that to create something unique and all our own as composers. Or is everyone just copying the temp? 

And more and more game developers are not believing it either. Hence...they are hiring more and more composers (film/TV) who have little game experience to score their "cinematic" games and storylines because that is the direction the games are moving. They are trying to immerse the player into a make believe world, with a movie-like storyline. 

This complaint/"fear" of composers not having game experience or even a love for games is about the fear of losing a foothold on the game composing jobs and feeling an inability to compete with the likes of huge film composers who do these gigs mostly for the money and the change of experience more than anything else. 

And again...it does not really matter with how we as composers see the composing gig here anyway (or how the creative developers look at their product as an art). It is how the game developers who do the hiring and marketing see it. And also again...if film/tv guys, who don't play games and are simply doing these things for the money, were not doing the music right...they would not continue to be hired. And yet...they are at ever increasing rates. So...in the eyes of a game developer which is all that matters...they are doing something right.
:smile: :neutral:


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## José Herring (Nov 10, 2006)

iocomposer @ Fri Nov 10 said:


> What is absurd is that you're looking onto the game industry from an ignorant perspective. You don't play games, you don't value games, you don't understand games. So why shoot your mouth off about something that you know nothing about?
> 
> I just released one of the most violent games in the history of the industry (you know...the one that's all over the news and has people standing in line all over the world to purchase it). If you don't consider it high art, then you're simply ignorant. The people who made this game are some of the most accomplished artists in the world.
> 
> ...



Okay Jamey. I'm ignorant. I don't devalue your work at all, but I will ask you a few questions.

What's the message in the game? 

I don't appreciate being called ignorant when I'm clearly not. I've played games before. Mostly I remember them being non stop shooting.

I've seen your game at your place and yes it is very, very high quality technically. Sonically superb. Visually stunning.

I have a standard for art. That is it has to have a viewpoint. It has to have a message. It has to have something to say about a subject.

What's the purpose of Gears of War? Who are you helping? What does the gamer come away thinking? Is the game anti-war or pro-war? Does he/she know more about life and living after playing the game? 

Entertainment is just that. Nothing wrong with it. But let's not confuse it with art that has a message and a purpose for existing as art. Don't mistake art and football for being one in the same. Though football broadcast have a lot of music and are generally well shot and well produced. Does that make it art? Not for me.

I guess you could continue to call me names if you want but that's not really going to get us anywhere.

Truth of the matter is that Art plays a secondary roll to the action in games. You said it yourself once. Music plays less of a roll in games than sound effects because the purpose of games is to emmerse the person in the realism of the game.

But don't feel insulted. 99% of movies fail to classify as art too though many are really entertaining and a lot of fun to watch.

Art to me has a message and meaning. I've just never seen that in a game before.

I'll check out Gears of War though. I'd love to ammend my viewpoint. Lots of money to be made in games. :smile: 

Jose


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## midphase (Nov 10, 2006)

I probably agree with Jose's point....but I love GOW so far! It's one of the most awesome gaming experiences I've ever played (since Halo).
I'm a sucker for these types of games....Jamey, congrats on doing the sound design...love the chainsaw!

Jose, I think you touch on some good points, but art can be so subjective. I do know that GOW's music is very good, reminds me a lot of Horner's work for Aliens which is a really great score. I s'pose you could come away from the game realizing how sucky war is...or how incomprehension and miscommunication leads to suffering...maybe I'm reading too much into it!


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## José Herring (Nov 10, 2006)

Well since we've started this topic I've come a long ways. This topic was actually started before I went to see Jamey's work on GOW. Which I was completely impressed with and saw the possibilities of games. Especially in terms of story development.

You're right midphase. It is subjective. I personally haven't disagreed with any point made so far. For me personally though I'll always hold to the idea that art should have something to say. I can't let go of it. I may be poorer because of it. But maybe I cling to the naive idea that someday I'm going to say something important with music and film music and people will recognize the worth of it and it will change the world for the better and take it away from overly violent and sexualized well produced void of soul entertainment. Maybe someday.......

Jose


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## midphase (Nov 10, 2006)

Jose,

I think yours is a noble intention. We are all essentially seeking the same goal. It's a bit funny to me how I'll work on some piece of music that I won't think a whole lot of...and someone will hear it and tell me how moved they were by it. Then again sometime I bring myself to tears with a piece I write, and when I play it for people the reactions are very neutral.

I guess as long as we're all continuing on our quest to fulfill our desire, then we're all doing the right thing!


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## Waywyn (Nov 11, 2006)

Hehe, funny, I checked the GOW website and they don't even have germany on the list of countries. I guess the game won't be released here. It's so funny how politicians also forbid games for even people who are over 30 years old 

Or if it will be released here, I guess they will completely take out everything which seems to be too violent. So I guess finally the end credits will be hopefully released :mrgreen:


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## kid-surf (Nov 11, 2006)

*Alex *-- I agree with Bri in that I don't feel you need to experience events first hand to write for them. You simply need to convey to the director/producer/audience that you have the ability to translate these emotions into the language of music (which is the most abstract language there is. No one has ever been able to explain the most fundamental question we all have about music . "Why do we like it, why are we compelled to do it, and what does music mean to mankind"). Let's not forget that most of the people viewing film/game/TV episodes haven't been through what the characters are going through _either_. So....?

But if that were true [that having been though something gives you more 'right' to compose for it], Well then I have more right to score horror films than any composer I know or have heard of, because I had the real life event of being chased down the street by an infamous serial killer. What other film composer has that happened to? Any? Yet, i doubt that gets me a horror job based solely on life experiences. Does it help my writing of horror to be more 'authentic'? Maybe? But even if it were the most authentic music possible [due to that life experience] who else would understand this? Can someone tell me it's 'not' authentic? How would they know either way unless they'd been through a similar experience? Only other people who have been chased by a serial killer and lived to tell about it would be able to judge it's authenticity. Seems like a pretty small demographic.


*Jamey* -- I respect your passion for your work. That's enough for me, even though I'll probably never play a video game.  Again, i personally don't look down on VG's. They just aren't for 'me'. 


*Jose* -- I agree with Kays in that I feel we are all looking to do something meaningful. When I'm writing music, the piece I'm working on at that time is the most important thing in my life at that moment, more or less. I don't set out to half ass it. Who does? I would say most creative people are 'trying' to add something to this world in an idealistic way. Something that non creative can't. Something that is maybe beyond words. I would guess that this "need" is what drives most of us to create. The pursuit of it. 

What I was implying before is that; this is all fine and good, we are for the most part "artists". That's what we do, we create, we are idealistic about art in a certain sense. It's to be expected. It's as it should be or we shouldn't be doing this IMO...... My point was that; Although, we are HIGH if we expect the people hiring us to care as much as we do. Furthermore, we are even HIGH-er if we expect an audience to care as much as we do. They simply don't, they aren't capable IMO.

So that's what I think is cool about Kays saying that a piece of his music brought him to tears. That is essentially an idealistic reaction to his own music. Because as he said, this same piece may play "neutral" to some others. Which is another way of saying, even if we feel we've created "art", it doesn't mean everyone will feel the same. This is a highly subjective way to make a living. We can just barely agree on what 'moving' music IS. Obviously, what profoundly moves me may not mean shit to the next guy.... some 'fine art' piece may play 'forced' for me. Sometimes fine art makes me feel like I'm listening to/watching a guy practice his schooling, rather than feeling like I'm witnessing them "expressing" a pure emotion. All depends really.... Yet it's just one guys take on that a particular offering. (I'd say I can be both right and wrong about the value of that art all at the same time -- no matter what my opinion of it is)

Art -- what is it? Hard to say.


So what I'm saying is that I'm an idealist "as" I'm writing. Once I step out into the real world (out from the cocoon we call a studio) I am then thrust back into realizing the ways of Hollywood and know what a long shot it is to think/hope that people who make their living "talking game" care about this in any sort of artistic way. Not like we do. I had drinks with about 20 agents tonight. Man, they are WAY different than 'us'. They just are. Art is not running through their veins the same way it naturally is for us. We are idealistic, they aren't. I don't see that changing anytime soon.


But that's ok. IMO you just have to be ok with it all, then you can sleep at night.


I wish the film world were simply about creating art, but it can't be, not in Hollywood.


Well, I do know a few people in suits who really do care (my wife one of them) it's just very rare is all. And yet they still can't possibly have the connection to it that we have.


My ramblings......

I digress........


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## PaulR (Nov 11, 2006)

Ed @ Tue May 09 said:


> Exactly. If Mozart were around today, just because his music is technically brilliant doesnt mean he will ever be a good *film *composer. A film composers job is so much more than just good music, that actually its rather secondary to their role. If you create art or something really special along the way thats a plus.



If Mozart were around today - that's EXACTLY what he'd be doing. However, if Rembrandt were around today - would he be doing video games?

I don't understand any of this - this is about making money. That's the bottom line. What's all this talk about art? Art means nothing to a fucking pleb. And why should it? Have any of you actually taken the time to attempt communication with a general run-of-the-mill moron recently about why something constitutes 'art'? Forget about art and think about the money.

Are video games an art form? I would say yes in general. How far up the art-form pecking order they are at this time - dunno. DC and Marvel comic books when I was a kid were definitely an art form and time has made it even more thus.

The greatest art-form today is making money out of what anyone wants you to perceive as art in the first place.

I was forced to watch a tv programme last night about the insides of haut-coiture. Never seen anything like it. At least it managed to sharpen the humerous part of the brain to the extreme.

Even I laughed.


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## Waywyn (Nov 11, 2006)

kid-surf @ Sat Nov 11 said:


> *Alex *-- I agree with Bri in that I don't feel you need to experience events first hand to write for them. You simply need to convey to the director/producer/audience that you have the ability to translate these emotions into the language of music (which is the most abstract language there is. No one has ever been able to explain the most fundamental question we all have about music . "Why do we like it, why are we compelled to do it, and what does music mean to mankind"). Let's not forget that most of the people viewing film/game/TV episodes haven't been through what the characters are going through _either_. So....?



Hey man, I think we cross-posted. I explained myself a bit more in the previous pst of mine


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## navidson (Nov 11, 2006)

> Are video games an art form? I would say yes in general. How far up the art-form pecking order they are at this time - dunno. DC and Marvel comic books when I was a kid were definitely an art form and time has made it even more thus.



I think it fluctuates from case-to-case. I would argue that a game like The Dig or http://www.grimfandango.net/files/soundtrack/28%20-%20Temple%20Gate.mp3 (Grim) http://www.grimfandango.net/files/soundtrack/03%20-%20Smooth%20Hector.mp3 (Fandango) are artwork, not just for their amazing soundtracks (both around a decade old, by the way) that I believe have yet to be surpassed in terms of immersion and quality (not the fault of composers since these games were released, more the diversion towards next-gen-selling popcorn games) but because they involve the player with the story and conceptual 'world' in a way that film or any other medium never can. Anyone here that has stated they don't play video games and know nothing about them, I would urge you just to give these two a try. It might not change your opinions, but it will at least help to know that not all games are about killing an army of demons/aliens/soldiers  That's just what's proven more popular in terms of sales!

I would probably continue to argue that something like the recent Grand Theft Auto games aren't really art, but an extremely clever examination of pop culture and entertainment. It all depends on what the developer is aiming for, really!


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## Ed (Nov 11, 2006)

navidson @ Sat Nov 11 said:


> I think it fluctuates from case-to-case. I would argue that a game like The Dig or http://www.grimfandango.net/files/soundtrack/28%20-%20Temple%20Gate.mp3 (Grim) http://www.grimfandango.net/files/soundtrack/03%20-%20Smooth%20Hector.mp3 (Fandango) are artwork, not just for their amazing soundtracks (both around a decade old, by the way)



Grim Fandango is brilliant! It was also very funny


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## Ed (Nov 11, 2006)

PaulR @ Sat Nov 11 said:


> And why should it? Have any of you actually taken the time to attempt communication with a general run-of-the-mill moron recently about why something constitutes 'art'? Forget about art and think about the money..



Art is anything someone has arranged purposefully to be art. In the same way as music is any purposefully ordered tones or beats. Why does it matter what the run of the mill moron considers art or music? It isnt going to change what it is.


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## PaulR (Nov 11, 2006)

Ed @ Sat Nov 11 said:


> Art is anything someone has arranged purposefully to be art.



Nonsense Ed - total unequivocal rubbish. Although you could be right if you accept good or bad art as coming under the heading 'Art' with a capital A.

Art appreciation is SUBJECTIVE - art is not. Art that is accepted as great art has to be OBJECTIVE. Otherwise we wind up in the hands of the philistines - which in fact happens throughout history. In between all of this, is the poor bastard that gets told 'this is new - this is great art' and then goes out and pays a fortune for something that should be chopped up as firewood - or broken down for scrap metal.

Most CD's ever produced are a complete waste of the Earth's raw materials, for example.

It's all about money. Nothing to do with art. To make real money, you have to pander to morons or the lowest common denominator of your choice. I have no interest in subjective taste whatsoever.


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## Ed (Nov 11, 2006)

PaulR @ Sat Nov 11 said:


> Ed @ Sat Nov 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Art is anything someone has arranged purposefully to be art.
> ...



No it doesnt, and _great _art and art isnt the same thing.

See the problem is if art is objective then you could study what makes it art scientifically. But then, if you reduce art to science then you have effectively killed what art is. It would mean something considered art wouldnt be art anymore unless it conformed to the scientfific criteria of what art was. And how would we determine that? And who would we be at that point to say what art is great or not? And thats the problem. All art is subjective, but some art objectively requires more talent and skill than others. 



> Otherwise we wind up in the hands of the philistines - which in fact happens throughout history. In between all of this, is the poor bastard that gets told 'this is new - this is great art' and then goes out and pays a fortune for something that should be chopped up as firewood - or broken down for scrap metal.



I didnt say anything about great art, I said art. Thats very different. Music is purposefully arranged sound. Any other definition makes no sence. Its the same for art. 



> Most CD's ever produced are a complete waste of the Earth's raw materials, for example.


It doesnt stop any of it being music. 

If some kid takes art at school what he creates could be called art by definition. However, this definition of art is still different to the definition of "art" one would use to describe something you made and actually *intended *it to *mean *something. Then theres also the kind of art you make for another purpose, like a movie. I think art can have several definitions, and several meanings. But the basic definition of art has to be something more simple than that. Higher definitions are also acceptable, but doesnt stop the basic definitions from still being valid. 



> It's all about money. Nothing to do with art. To make real money, you have to pander to morons or the lowest common denominator of your choice. I have no interest in subjective taste whatsoever.


You seem to be saying the definition of art that it has to mean something in itself is the only valid definition. In no way does this tell us how to tell what great art is. And if we applied this logic to the definition of music, it would stop most music from being music.


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## PaulR (Nov 11, 2006)

Ed - you're making the classic mistake of mixing up art - and 'the art of doing something'.

I think you need to spend a day with Brian Sewell. You have to go beyond science and subjectivity - you can't learn it.

Please read and digest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressr ... well.shtml

:lol:


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## Journeyman (Nov 11, 2006)

Greetings,



> Art is anything someone has arranged purposefully to be art.


I guess that some of us (myself included) would argue that Art is anything someone has arranged with a particular skillful proficiency. A jar of piss with a crucifix in it may be a form of personal expression, but hardly Art. IMHO just the mere existance of something does not imbue with a special quality that would raise it to the level of Art. Now to use my above definition, if someone has arranged their creation with a particular skillful proficiency, and I don't like it, THEN it's bad art. But just the existance of the creation alone doesn't raise it to the level of Art; regardless of whether it's good or bad.


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## José Herring (Nov 11, 2006)

Boy, we got busy with this topic.

Kid, I know where you're coming from. The more I try to do music for just the money aspect the more I get thrown back to doing music because I want to say something personal. Personal expression is starting to win out big time. 6 months ago I was doing it for the gig. But I burnt out of that life in a big way and I reorganizing my thoughts and the next work I do is definately going to be more meaningfull.

What is Art?

I've actually never had a problem defining it for myself. Art to me is first and foremost a communication of an emotion, thought, or idea or concept of some kind. That communication is forwarded by technical expertese. Thus in music in order to make it art one would have to have something that one is trying to communicate, said communication forwarded by enough command of the musical craft to make the communication possible.

There is fine art and there is also what I call base art. Fine art distinguishes itself by not being so on the nose. It invites the listener to form their own opinions as to what the work of art means. Base art is dead on. There's no room for audience participation in the meaning. In base art one would say, " I want to fuck you like an animal. I want to feel you from the inside". Not much room to add other meaning. In fine art one would say, "Tonight we'll ignite a fire whose flames reach out for the caress of an open flower." (Sorry only had a few minutes to think of it). One line is brutally blunt. The other invites some audience thought or contemplation.


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## Alex W (Nov 12, 2006)

josejherring @ Sun Nov 12 said:


> There is fine art and there is also what I call base art. Fine art distinguishes itself by not being so on the nose. It invites the listener to form their own opinions as to what the work of art means. Base art is dead on. There's no room for audience participation in the meaning. In base art one would say, " I want to f#@k you like an animal. I want to feel you from the inside". Not much room to add other meaning. In fine art one would say, "Tonight we'll ignite a fire whose flames reach out for the caress of an open flower." (Sorry only had a few minutes to think of it). One line is brutally blunt. The other invites some audience thought or contemplation.




:lol:
haha... classic...

I think fucking like an animal invites more thought or contemplation in my mind than the line about caressing like a flower!


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## choc0thrax (Nov 12, 2006)

Reznor owns you Jose.


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## José Herring (Nov 12, 2006)

Gimme a break mofo's. I was only trying to make a point. :lol: 

Gotta admit that Reznor's line doesn't leave much to the imagination.

Next I'm studying up on the subtle stylings of Slipknot.


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## Waywyn (Nov 12, 2006)

josejherring @ Sun Nov 12 said:


> Next I'm studying up on the subtle stylings of Slipknot.



Hehe, yes, and on the next meeting we will be there all dressed like that.

Funny thing about Slipknot I heard is, that they dress like this so nobody know their real faces and they can get rid of all the paparazzis and lead a calm life. Great idea if you ask me


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## Ed (Nov 12, 2006)

PaulR @ Sat Nov 11 said:


> Ed - you're making the classic mistake of mixing up art - and 'the art of doing something'.
> 
> I think you need to spend a day with Brian Sewell. You have to go beyond science and subjectivity - you can't learn it.
> 
> ...



Okay I read the article. I didnt understand the relevance? And just because Brian is a well known art critic doesnt mean he is an absolute authority and cant be a snob. 

You say you have to go "_beyond science and subjectivity_", but you were the one that said great art must be objective. Science is the most objective method we have of studying the world. So if great art is _necessarily _objective this means you can hypothetically come to form a set criteria of what is and what isnt great art, and anything that doesnt confirm to it is therefore not great art, no matter what the artist intended.

In the article Swell calls Newcastle "pretty hideous and not getting any better", but this wouldnt stop it being art. What WOULD stop it being art is if the architects and designers had not made it to *be *art. Did they design these buildings to *be *art? If so then it has to *is *art by definition. This says nothing as to the quality of the buildings, the skill required to create it or if its a crappy idea. 

If "great art" has any objective quality to it it must be how much talent and skill it took to create it. But then that still cant be the only criteria to judge as we are left with another question. If someone talented and skillfully creates a brilliant painting or sculpture (or whatever) for some *other *purpose, and specifically says it means *nothing *as it is *on its own*, then how can it be considered art at all in the same way? 

The definition of art is a tricky one. It means different things to different people. That in itself should tell you something.

If you want to say great art is objective. What criteria would you say is necessary to be called great art?


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## madbulk (Nov 12, 2006)

iocomposer @ Fri Nov 10 said:


> Good god...this thread is absurd.
> 
> Midphase....good for you, man! I agree with you 100%.
> 
> -Jamey



Boy were you early.

And I disagree with everybody.


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## Ed (Nov 12, 2006)

Personally I think deciding if something is art or not is pointless. Either you like it or you dont.


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## José Herring (Nov 12, 2006)

I understand why you would think that Ed. Personally I don't think discussions like this are pointless. For me it helps point talent in the right directions. I've seen too many people even at the top get locked into doing work that is pointless but yet makes a lot of money. Once they get all the money they need they become somewhat unhappy with what they're doing, yet in order to do something different they'll have to start all over again which most are unwilling to do.

I find that people that try not to think about these things sooner or later get stuck somewhere along in their career. "Yes I'm making money now, but I never really figured out what kind of work I want to do, or I've been doing the same thing for years now". These are comments I hear from many, many composers. It was happening to me. Stuck doing the same work again and again. I had to put a stop to it, but reorganizing is life threatening. :shock:


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