# Short scores for orchestral music- are they better than full scores?



## dcoscina (Oct 13, 2009)

I was just pouring over John Williams' SLEEPERS short score and have seen a few other composers' short scores over the past few days (Goldsmith's ST:TMP) and noticed something- the clarity of writing. I wonder if something like an 8 stave short score graphically allows the composer to think more intuitively when it comes to texture and balance. Ostensibly, there really only ought to be 4 lines happening in a piece of music, otherwise it gets muddy and over-written (this is not counting coloristic embellishment from other instrument choirs). 

These past few days, I was pondering whether to write a cue for a film I'm working on using this methodology as opposed to plunking away in front of the computer and monitors with a video feed. Instead, to go to the piano and compose on a reduced score. I supposed I could do the same thing with Symphobia and Sibelius or something. Use broad sections for each choir with a few keyswitch patches to go from legato to staccato but I think the piano/manuscript is easier (and faster) in the end. 

I dunno, what do you fellas think about this system? Do you use it or is it too archaic given your time frames? I'm curious. Do you feel you write better or shall I say more direct music in this manner or is it irrelevant?

Dave


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## musicpete (Oct 13, 2009)

Well, I couldn't agree more! Of course I can only speak for myself, but my writing improved after practicing this approach for some time. Together with "pitchless sketch scores" as I call them (for me they serve to fix the structure of a piece) they became an important tool.


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## Evan Gamble (Oct 13, 2009)

I'd never write an orchestra piece from the start with a full score. Even with chamber music I usually start with 2-3 staves. 8 staves seems to work out best for me so far. 

On a side note I hate pre-printed bars. I know goldsmith used em but I'm always struggling to fit notes inside there.


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## dadek (Oct 13, 2009)

Sorry for the OT, where does one find these 'short scores' to pour over? :?:


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## scottbuckley (Oct 13, 2009)

dadek @ Wed Oct 14 said:


> Sorry for the OT, where does one find these 'short scores' to pour over? :?:



Indeed! 

After all these years I've never really considered starting with a reduced score. Sounds like a great way to focus on the essentials.

-s


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## Hannes_F (Oct 14, 2009)

dadek @ Wed Oct 14 said:


> Sorry for the OT, where does one find these 'short scores' to pour over? :?:



Truespec.


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## dadek (Oct 14, 2009)

Thanks, will check them out.


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## JohnG (Oct 14, 2009)

I prefer short scores because it's easier to see what the composer was thinking.

In addition, D's question about short scores indirectly raises a big issue -- Does the easy availability of so many sounds allow one to quickly over-write -- make the music too complex and elaborate? if one composes while playing samples, does one get stuck writing only what's appropriate for samples? 

Unfortunately to some extent I think the answer to both questions is, "yes." But what else can one do? Even James Newton Howard appears to be expected to produce full sample mock-ups of his music.

Some years ago, I heard a (taped) lecture by Elliott Goldenthal in which he said that, when he's going to be stuck with synthesizers for the final sound, he uses them for composing as well.

Around the same time, Henry Mancini gave a lecture at AFI in which he responded to an audience question, actually implying that, had he been working in this new era, he'd have used samples too. As an example, he said that he'd a particular saxophone player in mind when he wrote the "Pink Panther theme, a guy whose sound he knew specifically. In his view, this was more or less the same as writing for a sample.

I like both composers' work (Henry Mancini was marvelous at what he was into, and EG is one of my heroes -- Titus is pretty much top drawer).

Personally, when I write at the piano, I am just about always disappointed when I try to then realise the music on samples. If the music is going to be thematic -- tunes and harmonies -- I often write at the piano on a sketch initially to generate ideas, but then very soon go to the samples to see if the ideas are going to translate well or not. 

Even if one has a fairly large complement of live players, often the sampled version is going to be decisive, either because the director has to hear something that sounds great or he will reject the cue or, alternatively, the cue will be comprised of samples to some significant extent in the end. Because of that, I usually revise the material until it sounds good on samples.

When my goal is clarity and moving fast and I'm using a tune-and-accompaniment approach in the score (by contrast with, say, textural / more experimental material that is not going to sound right on the piano), I write tunes at the piano with chord symbols, then move to the computer and play the melodies "properly" on the samples while just blocking out the accompaniment. Then, I go back and fiddle for hours trying to make the samples sound good in the accompaniment as well.

Sometimes just noodling with samples produces good results too, and ideas that might not sound too great on the piano anyway; I'm sure many do this. It's just not often the fastest process for me.


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## musicpete (Oct 14, 2009)

Hannes_F @ 14.10.2009 said:


> dadek @ Wed Oct 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry for the OT, where does one find these 'short scores' to pour over? :?:
> ...


How about a link? I couldn't find any interesting short scores over there. Only the usual stuff that you can buy on all other sheetmusic sites.


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## nikolas (Oct 14, 2009)

For large scores, and with ample of time in my hands, I work on condensed score and then blow it to full score. If I work on some klangenfarbenmelodi (yes, Hannes, correct my German) then I might go to orchestral straight away, but otherwise I rather full of notes, drafts, etc... (remember when I have AMPLE time, otherwise I have been known to open a template and work 43 minutes of music in a couple of weeks!  )


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## Dave Connor (Oct 14, 2009)

Some composers write directly into score and some into reduced 6 or 8 staves. In the case of film composers there is no doubt that time constraints favor the reduced score approach since it's faster yet complete and easily orchestrated. I was at a Goldsmith session (Supergirl) and was looking at his reduced score and found it complete. I said out loud "everything is here" to which he replied "now he's learning."


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## vicontrolu (Oct 15, 2009)

Sorry but, what instrumetns are supposed to play on this kind of scores? s that variable or tends to be something like 4 strings, 2 brass and 2 woods?

Yeah, a link to the short scores on truespec would be nice, i couldnt find it either.


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## JohnG (Oct 15, 2009)

When composing, it's variable.

And here's the thread with links to scores:

JOHN WILLIAMS 
http://www.truespec.com/-c-125_104.html 

SCORES SUPPORTING PROFESSIONAL ORCHESTRATION SERIES 
http://www.truespec.com/-c-125_104.html 

FILM SUITES 
http://www.truespec.com/-c-120_43.html 

BY COMPOSER 
http://www.truespec.com/-c-120_37.html 


(Also, I'm afraid that, in reading too hastily, I confused the original poster's question with some old Boosey & Hawkes editions that they called "short scores," which caused me to post some possibly confusing stuff in this thread -- sorry).


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## musicpete (Oct 15, 2009)

Thanks for the links John. Unfortunately those scores are what I meant with "just the usual stuff you can get everywhere else".

I was hoping for really interesting and new revelations. Jerry Goldsmith's complete orchestral scores for all cues of "Total Recall" for 99US$ comes to mind. Seems, that to get to the good stuff one has to resort to illegal copying and hush-hush contacts in various forums again....


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## dcoscina (Oct 15, 2009)

I have got my hands on some handwwitten scores from Williams and Herrmann as well as Yared. Educational stuff.


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## musicpete (Oct 16, 2009)

See? That's what I mean. 

It all happens behind closed doors... And if you're not careful you'll wake up next to a sawed-off horse head!


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## Hannes_F (Oct 16, 2009)

musicpete @ Wed Oct 14 said:


> Hannes_F @ 14.10.2009 said:
> 
> 
> > dadek @ Wed Oct 14 said:
> ...



Sorry I thought you meant you searched for short score paper to pour your own music over.


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## musicpete (Oct 16, 2009)

No worries about that misunderstanding! However, if you ever learn where to get some of the more interesting film scores (the written ones), you gotta tell me. I may be willing to sell my firstborn for the one from "Total Recall". Hehe.. 

Oh, and a little tip: You can make any kind of empty score paper easily with any notation software. I made my first ones with Sibelius 2. Just slap some empty staves in any desired combination onto a paper, print one page and copy it. This is so obvious, yet I always marvel at how many people still purchase expensive blank stave paper and curse the inflexibility of it...


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## dcoscina (Oct 16, 2009)

It helps to be in the film score journalism circle as some of these things land in one's lap because of dealings with some of these composers.


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## JohnG (Oct 16, 2009)

Actually, I think anyone who really wants to know how to drive an orchestra could do a lot worse than look at John Williams' scores, which are "the same old stuff" as was noted by someone on this thread. The guy has been nominated over 40 times for Oscars, and the love of his music is such that I'd speculate that he has greater name recognition than any other film composer by a factor of 5 or 10. So he's quite successful, measured that way.

Put differently, if one studied and learned all the tricks in his scores, I bet that one could flourish as a composer for film. Without committing any crimes against dogs or humanity.

(but it's still easier to see what the composer was thinking if one has an 8 or 10-stave score)


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## musicpete (Oct 16, 2009)

John, I think you totally misunderstood what I was trying to say.... I own plenty of Mr. Williams written scores, amongs dozens of others (classical, modern.... you name it). I've spent more than 15 years studying those and learning from them.

With "the same old stuff" I mean that there is nothing special about the selection of that particular webshop. You an get the same stuff nearly everywhere. That's why there is nothing special about it. Now if you show me some place selling condensed scores, complete film cue collections, etc. for many films..... That would be something"new and fresh". Unfortunately there seems to be little interest in selling or purchasing those.


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## Dave Connor (Oct 16, 2009)

Those scores are owned by the studios so they are not really promoted (published.) Orchestrators circulate copies very quietly amongst themselves but you won't see them published as a rule. Mr. Williams has the kind of clout to get his material published but that's almost it as far as film cues available in stores.


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## JohnG (Oct 16, 2009)

Peter,

I didn't misunderstand your post at all. However, though I didn't intend to, I was preaching to the converted, it appears. Sorry.

I do think there's plenty of interest in buying unpublished scores but, sadly, the studios own them and they appear not to be interested in the no doubt avid, but possibly rather small, market for scores and sketches. There could be other reasons too, but anyway.


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