# Hi from Frankfurt, Germany



## ralfrobert (Sep 1, 2021)

Hi, my name is Ralf. I came to the music game quite late (I am now 47, started four years ago) and have been mainly dabbling with sound design and the electronic side of computer music. Bitwig / the grid has become my main tool. From my perspective, there is a more side, including engineering for bands, sample-based orchestral stuff, and many more. 

As I have started to produce community televisions 3 months ago, I will do two things now ... 

1. Look around VI-Control, as I hope to find resources here on how to get started with underscoring / film composition. 

2. Kindly ask you for advice. I know I have to invest a little (libraries, maybe Kontakt while it is on sale). But as this will not become my main focus for the next 2 years or so, I am looking for good bang-for-buck, i.e. something that is highly usable, but not top of the line. I know, top stuff can go into the thousands. 

Have fun everybody. Any help is appreciated. 

Ralf


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## Double Helix (Sep 1, 2021)

Welcome, @ralfrobert, you have definitely found a great place to gather the input you seek. Knowledge abounds.
Best wishes from Florida on your composing journey.


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## MartinH. (Sep 1, 2021)

ralfrobert said:


> 2. Kindly ask you for advice. I know I have to invest a little (libraries, maybe Kontakt while it is on sale). But as this will not become my main focus for the next 2 years or so, I am looking for good bang-for-buck, i.e. something that is highly usable, but not top of the line. I know, top stuff can go into the thousands.



I think Kontakt on sale is amazing bang for buck if you don't need top of the line libraries. If you don't want to go for a Komplete bundle right away, you can try this trick to get Kontakt even cheaper. I copied this from another forum, but I think it still works: 




> How to get Kontakt 6 (full version) for $124.50 + tax
> 
> Sign up for an account at Native Instruments and download their installer.
> 
> ...



Once you have Kontakt, you can get some really cool free libraries that require the full version of Kontakt, like palette primary colors for example. 

Welcome to the forum and enjoy your stay!


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## doctoremmet (Sep 1, 2021)

ralfrobert said:


> 2. Kindly ask you for advice. I know I have to invest a little (libraries, maybe Kontakt while it is on sale). But as this will not become my main focus for the next 2 years or so, I am looking for good bang-for-buck, i.e. something that is highly usable, but not top of the line. I know, top stuff can go into the thousands.


There is a lot of good bang-for-the-buck in the full Kontakt realm, so I’d strongly advice you to do get Kontakt first (on sale, and I believe it is on sale as a matter of fact?).

Edit: ah yes, @MartinH. already mentioned the sale!


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## doctoremmet (Sep 1, 2021)




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## doctoremmet (Sep 1, 2021)

For underscoring and orchestrating television work, I’d argue you want to get some top tier “triple A” orchestral samples (strings, brass, woodwinds, percussion), a selection of decent pianos, and a selection of up-to-date contemporary electronic sounds. 

A lot of choices there, all of them good, so it depends on your personal style, workflow, goals and most of all taste and preferences, which ones are the right pick for you. VI-Control is a very good place to start reading about all of those choices, and doing your research. And we’re here to help!


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## ralfrobert (Sep 1, 2021)

Thanks to all of you. I have to say this has been a very warm welcome, and from looking around, the community is one of the nicest I have seen up to now. (There are really nasty forums around the internet, you know. Nobody needs that, but ... anyway.) 

@doctoremmet: Could you just mention two or three examples of "triple-A" orchestral libraries, so I have an entry point? I guess Spitfire or VSL fall into that category, but it is very difficult to be sure if you are new to this field. 

I think my next two jobs will be to (a) listen and look around and (b) determine how much I am able / willing to spend. Well, music is not one of the cheaper hobbies.


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## Leslie Fuller (Sep 1, 2021)

Welcome to the forum, @ralfrobert!


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## doctoremmet (Sep 1, 2021)

ralfrobert said:


> Could you just mention two or three examples of "triple-A" orchestral libraries, so I have an entry point? I guess Spitfire or VSL fall into that category, but it is very difficult to be sure if you are new to this field.


Not my personal top three, but somewhat of a VI-C all-time “greats” (which I’m sure others will confirm / deny later hehe):

1. Spitfire BBCSO Core. “Has it all” and will cover a lot of needs. Disclaimer: I do not have it 

2. Cinematic Studios CSS, CSB and CSW. Revered stuff. Disclaimer: only have CSW. But this forum sure love their CSS.

3. VSL Synchron + Synchronized series. Very high quality stuff. Or, to get your feet wet: VSL Big Bang Orchestra and / or Special Editions. Again: I am NOT a VSL user myself


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## doctoremmet (Sep 1, 2021)

For percussion: Spitfire HAMMERS, Heavyocity Damage 2


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## MartinH. (Sep 1, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> 2. Cinematic Studios CSS, CSB and CSW. Revered stuff. Disclaimer: only have CSW. But this forum sure love their CSS.



@ralfrobert: this will come in handy when trying to understand what people here are talking about:

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/glossary-of-vi-c-abbreviations.67167/ 

:D


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## doctoremmet (Sep 1, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> @ralfrobert: this will come in handy when trying to understand what people here are talking about:
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/glossary-of-vi-c-abbreviations.67167/
> 
> :D


Indeed. Thanks. I’m acronym blind by now


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## doctoremmet (Sep 1, 2021)

Also Ralf: never buy anything NOT on sale. Every other week something’s on sale  but I think I’ve seen you actively trading on KVR, KnobCloud and on here - so I figure THAT’s no secret hehe.


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## doctoremmet (Sep 1, 2021)

Beginner orchestral library recommendations


Hi all! So I've been looking around for some quality libraries to make orchestral music at a reasonable price and have only become more confused with the amount of options. I've been using a lot of free things like BBCSO Discover, Labs, and have actually bought Audio Imperia's Areia Lite with...




vi-control.net


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## doctoremmet (Sep 1, 2021)

1500USD which lib(s) would you pick to make a complete orchestra?


As per title, if you would start from scratch again, and want a top notch/very good/realistic complete orchestra (strings, brass, woods, percussion and some solo instruments) available, what would you choose and why? Curious on opinions in general and to see if you would choose differently or...




vi-control.net


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## doctoremmet (Sep 1, 2021)

I should also have mentioned EastWest Composer Cloud. It is a subscription that gives you access to a ton of orchestral samples, some of which can truly be described as “industry standard” - I am thinking of East West Hollywood Orchestra (EWHO) Diamond, which was recently updated and is know also known as Hollywood Orchestra OPUS (acronym: HOOPUS).

A lot can be said (and has been said) about some of the business antics of EastWest, but when I’m being honest EWHO / HOOPUS still holds up as one of the best orchestral packages out there. So maybe the Composer Cloud option is a very sensible one to sort of get your feet wet.


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## ralfrobert (Sep 1, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Also Ralf: never buy anything NOT on sale. Every other week something’s on sale  but I think I’ve seen you actively trading on KVR, KnobCloud and on here - so I figure THAT’s no secret hehe.


Yes, I know the market, at least for synth plugins and effects. Libraries are a bit different, though. And I have planned to make a decision in the next months, not hours. It is a money thing, too.


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## doctoremmet (Sep 1, 2021)

ralfrobert said:


> Yes, I know the market, at least for synth plugins and effects. Libraries are a bit different, though. And I have planned to make a decision in the next months, not hours. It is a money thing, too.


Hanging around here and just following some threads, doings some research, getting a feel for the continual ebb and flow of hype / backlash, will make it easier to find a “residual of actually useful information” in all the “noise”, and also to develop a sense of whose opinions resonate most with your own.

I have found that the YT channels by the likes of these people have some invaluable information too:

- all videos by @Cory Pelizzari are excellent: he’s critical, knows what he’s talking about and really knows how to showcase a library

- all videos by Anne Kathrin Dern. She even has a whole series on her favourite orchestral libraries.

- all videos by Tom Holkenborg / Junkie XL

- @Simeon has a fantastic channel (Simeon Amburgey, PraiseTracks)

- not forgetting @ChrisSiuMusic


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## doctoremmet (Sep 1, 2021)




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## Bluemount Score (Sep 1, 2021)

Welcome to the forum, neighbour!


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## ralfrobert (Sep 1, 2021)

Thanks a lot for the Youtube stuff. I will check all the material on the weekend. 

And I have to do lots of reading, for sure.


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## doctoremmet (Sep 1, 2021)

Make sure you don’t rush into purchases. There’s a sale? So what. They’ll have a new one next month


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## ralfrobert (Sep 1, 2021)

I will not rush. The small Spitfire BBC thingy for 50 bucks (or the survey) will find its way onto my computer so I can get my toes wet. The feet will come a bit later.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Sep 2, 2021)

Hi there, mal ein Deutscher hier, yay.


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## Saxer (Sep 2, 2021)

Bluemount Score said:


> Welcome to the forum, neighbour!


Hi from another neighbour (20km west of Ffm)


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## Saxer (Sep 2, 2021)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Hi there, mal ein Deutscher hier, yay.


Mehr als Du denkst


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## wahey73 (Sep 2, 2021)

Hi Ralf und servas aus Italien (Ex-Münchner)  Here you will find all the information you need, really a lot of information and some cool members. For your request about libraries to start with TV underscoring a real good bang for the buck in my opinion is Sole from Fingerprint Audio. But for sure @Akarin can tell you more (btw, he has a real cool informative Youtube channel too)


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Sep 2, 2021)

Mehr als Du denkst 
Und ich werds garnicht erst damit Anfangen.


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## grabauf (Sep 2, 2021)

Saxer said:


> Mehr als Du denkst


indeed 
Auch von mir ein herzliches Welcome an Ralf. 
I guess we already met on Knobcloud.


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## ralfrobert (Sep 2, 2021)

Thank you all. It's really great here. As I am currently producing a little thing for television (more camera than music atm), it will take a few days to look at all the material that has arrived in the thread and write some comments. 

You are soooo helpful. The social side of this forum should be used as an example for many others.


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## Dan Smith (Sep 2, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> I think Kontakt on sale is amazing bang for buck if you don't need top of the line libraries. If you don't want to go for a Komplete bundle right away, you can try this trick to get Kontakt even cheaper. I copied this from another forum, but I think it still works:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I downloaded Embertone Arcane and was able to get the discount for Kontakt 6. So, dumb question... can I delete Embertone Arcane at this point?


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## doctoremmet (Sep 2, 2021)

Dan Smith said:


> I downloaded Embertone Arcane and was able to get the discount for Kontakt 6. So, dumb question... can I delete Embertone Arcane at this point?


You can.


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## doctoremmet (Sep 2, 2021)

ralfrobert said:


> The social side of this forum should be used as an example for many others.


Agreed. It is rare and it is awesome.
Thanks @Mike Greene for maintaining this coolest little spot on the internet.


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## ralfrobert (Sep 3, 2021)

So, here is my first impression on watching some of the videos: They are very good and instructive in general. My question here is: Are they collected at another place on VI-Control, as the information in this welcome thread might be helpful to other newbies, too. Excellent overview. 

Second thing is I have checked what I already have as far as software / samples are concerned. I already mentioned the Spitfire BBC mini edition which I got for filling in the survey. I will take my first look at this product, as I love the sound of the demos and might go this way (when there is a sale). There is nothing wrong about looking at the freebie first, I guess. 

Then I had another thought, and some advice might come in handy. Several DAWs come with orchester stuff that may be totally inferior to A+++ libraries. I am the type of guy who only wants good stuff in his toolbox, so there will be a purchase sooner or later. My question is: There are cases where, when learning something, you put severe damage on your long-time success when starting off on the wrong foot (e.g. swimming, playing an instrument, a real one, I mean, several aspects of learning a foreign language ...). So, do I do any harm experimenting with the stuff I already got? In particular, this is: 

1. Reason 11 Orkester. 
2. Presonus Orchestra. 
3. IK Miroslav. (Please do not send me to hell, but I like the 90s vibe of it.) 

Any comments welcome. And have a nice weekend, everybody.


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## doctoremmet (Sep 3, 2021)

Cool post Ralf. Ableton Live 11 Suite has some orchestral (Spitfire) samples as well.

In all honesty, working with DAW “internal” orchestral samples will likely imply a lot less articulations and microphone positions. Miroslav happens to be a product I have and like, but also don’t really use anymore for pretty much the same reasons: poor workflow.

Since most orchestral sampled instruments are going to require working with keyswitches OR a “one articulation per track” approach (both boiling down to: in order to recreate a lively “slightly real sounding” line one needs to play several parts of a phrase with a separate sample), it may be wise to first find out what approach suits you best - in terms of “building your workflow / template”.

Modern and tried-and-tested sample players are typically better suited to this type of thing than your average DAW multi-sample player. The same can be said about the flexibility that modern sample players offer in terms of “manipulating / playing” MIDI CC data. Modulation is REALLY important, so changing velocity levels, expression, the dynamics of orchestral samples brings them to life. I doubt most DAWs would give you the flexibility you are ultimately going to need.

Do not misinterpret the above: I am NOT looking down on free or cheaper orchestral options. Not at ALL even. I think sticking with Discover will at least give you a feel for what’s possible with orchestral samples, arguably using a “modern sample player” (albeit one that is not as advanced yet as VSL Synchron player for instance, or Kontakt).


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## doctoremmet (Sep 3, 2021)




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## doctoremmet (Sep 3, 2021)




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## ralfrobert (Sep 6, 2021)

Thanks, @doctoremmet ... the last 2 videos have been great help, too. After installing the small discovery library and playing around, I made some decisions: (1) There are about 4 months left in this year. In this timeframe, I will try to accumulate theoretical knowledge on the subject and experiment with what I already have (the small Spitfire library, Miroslav full, DAW stuff). Although I am not a fan of the business model, I am really considering composer cloud. And this way I can jump on whatever sale pops up if I decide I like the product enough. (2) As I have been told, the best way to make progress are own experiments. These are on the schedule, of course. (3) One more question to all of you: Are there special recommendations for video courses? Can be paid. (This is a learning format I have made good personal experiences with and which I want to use n parallel. I am just asking because I want to avoid spending money on crap or on stuff that is too advanced for newbies. Happened in the past, you know. 

FYI, I will from now on post at other places in the forum, as I think welcome threads are not for eternity. 

A very warm thank you to all of you.


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## doctoremmet (Sep 6, 2021)

ralfrobert said:


> (3) One more question to all of you: Are there special recommendations for video courses? Can be paid. (This is a learning format I have made good personal experiences with and which I want to use n parallel. I am just asking because I want to avoid spending money on crap or on stuff that is too advanced for newbies. Happened in the past, you know.


1. check out the courses by Guy Michelmore.






ThinkSpace Education


The world’s first online postgraduate degree provider in music and sound-design, for film, games and television.




thinkspaceeducation.com






2. Your fellow countrymen @Waywyn Alex Pfeffer and @Dirk Ehlert also have their own courses









Trailer Music Course by Alex Pfeffer


Learn how to write trailer music and license your compositions for TV, film & ads.




www.alexpfeffer.co










The CTO Production Music Course - BLACK NOVEMBER 50%OFF


Hey everyone, I have spent most of the last year developing a course on how I approach Production Music and writing in various different genres for Music Libraries. This course is the culmination of my experience on the job and in the field in the past 12 years. It is available now on early...




vi-control.net






But there are many many more, some of which have been discussed on this forum.


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## wahey73 (Sep 6, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> 1. check out the courses by Guy Michelmore.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Guy Michelmore has a nice little course called "How to write music", might be a good starting point.
@Waywyn (Alex Pfeffer) 's Trailer Music Course is incredible! Hours and hours of in depth information about trailer music. If Trailer Music is your thing, that's for sure the right course as you'll learn nearly about everything from basics to orchestration to mixing and mastering. For me it was super helpful


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## Leslie Fuller (Sep 6, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> 1. check out the courses by Guy Michelmore.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As @doctoremmet mentions, there are many more. One I’d mention is @tzilla, Production Music Club, which a number of forum members here are part of. See link below:






Production Music Club - LET'S GO! Get Your Music TV Ready!







www.mediamusicmastery.com


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## ralfrobert (Nov 20, 2021)

In case somebody looks into this thread... I just purchased Orchestration Recipes which is on sale at the moment. I can 100% recommend this to everyone who can already handle score excerpts and has made the first steps. This can really get you a lot further for a little investment.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Nov 21, 2021)

ralfrobert said:


> In case somebody looks into this thread... I just purchased Orchestration Recipes which is on sale at the moment. I can 100% recommend this to everyone who can already handle score excerpts and has made the first steps. This can really get you a lot further for a little investment.


Interessant, danke


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