# Buyer's Basic Guide to Orchestral Sample Libraries



## Zhao Shen

*Buyer's Basic Guide to Orchestral Sample Libraries*






A Basic Guide to Orchestral Sample Libraries · A Basic Guide to Orchestral VSTs


A Basic Guide to Orchestral Sample Libraries Author: StormSound Last updated/Changes made: Information for all updates is available in the GitHub r...




stormsoundmusic.github.io





Newly migrated to GitHub pages as of December 2020! I'll answer any questions/comments/input on the guide in this thread, but if anyone is eager to report issues or contribute changes, please check out the relevant pages.


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## Boberg

This is some great stuff, Zhao. I remember being completely overwhelmed by the amount of options when I was to purchase my first libraries. To be honest, I still am.. haha.


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## Parsifal666

Zhao Shen said:


> *STRINGS*
> 
> *Hollywood Strings *- EastWest - PLAY Library
> _Silver $250 / Gold $500 / Diamond $800_
> NOTE: EastWest product prices are often discounted up to 80%
> -->_ http://www.soundsonline.com/Hollywood-Strings_
> 
> _STRENGTHS:_ Has a great vanilla orchestral tone with very useful mic position options. A huge selection of playing styles is available, and is very playable.
> *WEAKNESSES: Huge resource hog, has a few inconsistencies and bugs.*



Wow, you sure are generous lol! I consider Hollywood Strings (and Brass) to be the elite standard in the niche, but the Play engine just can't seem to shed the same old problems. Hanging notes just seems to be part of the package, and it's an incomparably inconvenient and aggravating syndrome. It just isn't going away.

Which makes Albion easier to reach for (thumbs up Albion I!!!).


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## EastWest Lurker

Parsifal666 said:


> Wow, you sure are generous lol! I consider Hollywood Strings (and Brass) to be the elite standard in the niche, but the Play engine just can't seem to shed the same old problems. Hanging notes just seems to be part of the package, and it's an incomparably inconvenient and aggravating syndrome. It just isn't going away.



Which host? Which version of Play? I simply don't get the hanging notes problem very often with Play in VE Pro or Logic Pro. Not saying "never" mind you, just "rarely."


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## Parsifal666

EastWest Lurker said:


> Which host? Which version of Play? I simply don't get the hanging notes problem very often with Play in VE Pro or Logic Pro. Not saying "never" mind you, just "rarely."



Cubase 7 and now 8.1. It's mostly on the woodwinds and brass, but it happens pretty much across the board. It's not a constant, but consistent flaw. I've learned to live with it, whenever it happens I just delete and undo delete the instrument.

To be completely honest, it's hard for me to be particularly vehement about it because I'm overall a more than happy EW customer, having owned and used at length all the Hollywood libraries for a couple of years now. I jumped on board the Composer Cloud a couple of months ago, and am quite happy with that as well.


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## EastWest Lurker

Parsifal666 said:


> Cubase 7 and now 8.1. It's mostly on the woodwinds and brass, but it happens pretty much across the board. It's not a constant, but consistent flaw. I've learned to live with it, whenever it happens I just delete and undo delete the instrument.
> 
> To be completely honest, it's hard for me to be particularly vehement about it because I'm overall a more than happy EW customer, having owned and used at length all the Hollywood libraries for a couple of years now. I jumped on board the Composer Cloud a couple of months ago, and am quite happy with that as well.



I swear, and I am not blaming Steinberg, but Cubase users as a whole seem to have more problems with Play than other hosts. Wish I knew why.


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## Parsifal666

EastWest Lurker said:


> I swear, and I am not blaming Steinberg, but Cubase users as a whole seem to have more problems with Play than other hosts. Wish I knew why.



It's strange, but FAR from a dealbreaker in my ears. To me it's the bad I have to take along with the good, the latter being the best _sounding_ orchestral library on the planet (in my humble opinion). If sounds hang, small price...especially for those folks with Composer Cloud, which was one of the greatest in the box offers of the century imo.

Okay, okay, I'm obviously pro-EW!


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## EastWest Lurker

Parsifal666 said:


> It's strange, but FAR from a dealbreaker in my ears. To me it's the bad I have to take along with the good, the latter being the best _sounding_ orchestral library on the planet (in my humble opinion). If sounds hang, small price...especially for those folks with Composer Cloud, which was one of the greatest in the box offers of the century imo.
> 
> Okay, okay, I'm obviously pro-EW!


And we love YOU


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## resound

This is a great resource. Thanks for taking the time to put this together!


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## Mars

Thanks a lot, a great page to bookmark. 
I'm a newbie, as I started 2 months ago, and had a lot of trouble finding which library could suit my needs. I ended creating a note with Evernote, collecting informations. The best tool ever would be a comparative chart, with pros and cons (I know it depends on what you expect and what you want to produce), prices, links and so on...

Also, though I'm an Albion One user now, I found really hard to understand the different Spitfire products at first. It's easy to put face to face EW and Cinesample for example, but really hard to find the equivalent in Spitfire. Different products for different customer targets I guess.


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## Zhao Shen

Mars said:


> Thanks a lot, a great page to bookmark.
> I'm a newbie, as I started 2 months ago, and had a lot of trouble finding which library could suit my needs. I ended creating a note with Evernote, collecting informations. The best tool ever would be a comparative chart, with pros and cons (I know it depends on what you expect and what you want to produce), prices, links and so on...
> 
> Also, though I'm an Albion One user now, I found really hard to understand the different Spitfire products at first. It's easy to put face to face EW and Cinesample for example, but really hard to find the equivalent in Spitfire. Different products for different customer targets I guess.


Thanks! I hope to get more time to update it further as time goes on - in the middle of a very intense university exams week at the moment haha! If you have any questions about libraries, feel free to send me a PM and I'd be happy to help. Just please, no VSL questions because I can't help you there


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## WorshipMaestro

EastWest Lurker said:


> I swear, and I am not blaming Steinberg, but Cubase users as a whole seem to have more problems with Play than other hosts. Wish I knew why.


Seeing as how Steinberg is the developer and steward of the VST plugin standard I would think that Play SHOULD work BEST with Steinberg software. Just sayin'......


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## EastWest Lurker

WorshipMaestro said:


> Seeing as how Steinberg is the developer and steward of the VST plugin standard I would think that Play SHOULD work BEST with Steinberg software. Just sayin'......




I know, I don't get it.


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## Daryl

EastWest Lurker said:


> I swear, and I am not blaming Steinberg, but Cubase users as a whole seem to have more problems with Play than other hosts. Wish I knew why.


I think you have it backwards, Jay. It is East West's responsibility to make sure that their software works with supported hosts. You can't expect Steinberg to do your testing for you. One could equally say that Cubase users have no problem with Kontakt, VSL, Sprectrasonics etc. 

D


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## Pietro

I have received some free stuff from EW, to make my stance clear, if it makes any difference to anyone. PLAY had it's bad days at the early stage. However, I've worked with PLAY for years now without actual project breaking issues. Actually, mostly none. Cubase 8 seems to like it, no less than Kontakt or Omnisphere. Actually, Kontakt has been rock solid until just version 5.something which started getting awkward and crashing Cubase from time to time. Cubase is also in fault, as it tends to crash when selecting tracks since 7.5 (and they are supposedly unable to trace the problem).

I now use mostly Hollywood Orchestra (Diamond), with an exception of woodwinds, for which I picked Berlin stuff.


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## JC_

Parsifal666 said:


> Cubase 7 and now 8.1. It's mostly on the woodwinds and brass, but it happens pretty much across the board. It's not a constant, but consistent flaw. I've learned to live with it, whenever it happens I just delete and undo delete the instrument.



I get stuck notes with many synths/libs when All Midi Inputs is selected on a track instead of the specific midi controller I'm trying to use. Not sure if that's the case for you or not.


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## EastWest Lurker

Daryl said:


> I think you have it backwards, Jay. It is East West's responsibility to make sure that their software works with supported hosts. You can't expect Steinberg to do your testing for you. One could equally say that Cubase users have no problem with Kontakt, VSL, Sprectrasonics etc.
> 
> D


Did I not specially write that I was not blaming Steinberg?


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## Parsifal666

The Woodwinds are the weakest link in the Hollywood libraries, far more hanging notes and glitches, though of course the sound is pristine. Which makes me wonder if it really is the Play engine to blame, since I really don't have much trouble with it with Ghostwriter, Stormdrums, MOR 2, everything but the Hollywoods.


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## PeterKorcek

Excellent thread - thanks for this - wish I had read it 2 years ago, when I started doing "music". In those 2 years, Play engine definitely improved and any bugs with HW series were rare in my case (Cubase, Logic Pro, Win/Mac). I'm looking for other string libraries for blending, can't decide btw Cinesamples and Spitfire basically


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## Parsifal666

PeterKorcek said:


> Excellent thread - thanks for this - wish I had read it 2 years ago, when I started doing "music". In those 2 years, Play engine definitely improved and any bugs with HW series were rare in my case (Cubase, Logic Pro, Win/Mac). I'm looking for other string libraries for blending, can't decide btw Cinesamples and Spitfire basically



It's hard to go wrong with Spitfire, especially when used in conjunction with Hollywood Strings. It's as though they were made for each other.


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## Zhao Shen

PeterKorcek said:


> Excellent thread - thanks for this - wish I had read it 2 years ago, when I started doing "music". In those 2 years, Play engine definitely improved and any bugs with HW series were rare in my case (Cubase, Logic Pro, Win/Mac). I'm looking for other string libraries for blending, can't decide btw Cinesamples and Spitfire basically


Depends on what you're looking for, and what type of music you want to make! IMO Cinesamples' libraries are typically drier (so more versatile, but not as lush) and a little more aggressive than Spitfire's.


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## PeterKorcek

I listened to both of them quite a lot and read a couple of reviews - I like them both, to be honest, each in its own regard. 

Parsifal, which library would you recommend to start with? Mural is just strings and Albion is for "broad strokes" as was also mentioned here. Would be probably more interested in just strings, though.


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## Parsifal666

PeterKorcek said:


> I listened to both of them quite a lot and read a couple of reviews - I like them both, to be honest, each in its own regard.
> 
> Parsifal, which library would you recommend to start with? Mural is just strings and Albion is for "broad strokes" as was also mentioned here. Would be probably more interested in just strings, though.




If you want aggression (in a semi-broad strokey kind of way), look no further than Albion III. Full stop. Just check the demos; if you want more aggression than that, buy a good distortion like Fabfilter Saturn or Ohmicide (the latter is cheaper and sounds just as good, just less tweakable). Or just jump on the East West Composer Cloud and scoop up The Dark Side.

Cinesamples is really good...I wouldn't trade Hollywood Strings or Albion for it though. Especially the East West, which despite its problems is probably the best sounding, best made in history. Really.

So...if you want things super-easy, grab one or more of the Albions (though Cinesamples is perfectly good); if you want amazing sound which brings a test of patience with it, the elite to my ears is Hollywood Strings by a landslide. At least for ensembles.

For solo I'd go first with Gypsy for violin (terrific legato). But to be completely forthright, I really don't know much about the solo cellos outside of GPO, which is (in a certain context) great but both not particularly tweakable and not a whole ton of articulations there. Plus I don't think the Gofriller is available anymore in GPO, a bizarre and unfortunate thing imo.

In general, I think other folks here will be a way better help in regard to the solo strings, I have what I love and took hours upon hours of tweaking to make perfect for me (the QL solo violin) but I absolutely would not recommend that as a first or even third choice...too much work and frustration.


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## JPQ

Real world system requiments are thign what i want this kind list. some brands dont tell them. We all dont have computer where we can simply buy any library what we like. I allready know my budget computer should work with Cinematic Strings 2 becouse even u-he diva is heavier says one user when i talked sometime ago it. And even Diva works some level there. Simply using only VSL special editions sounds bit not very colorful. Their strings,and brass lacks something what some ideas needs.


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## JPQ

Real world is things what users found not what manuacturer tells to users which sometimes dont even tell what is needed expect hard drive space.
ps. changing to pc (form mac) is pricey when i must get new daw and i simply dislike windows. but i know budget what i can use computer i of course i can get much more powerful pc with same money.


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## Parsifal666

JPQ said:


> Real world is things what users found not what manuacturer tells to users which sometimes dont even tell what is needed expect hard drive space.
> ps. changing to pc (form mac) is pricey when i must get new daw and i simply dislike windows. but i know budget what i can use computer i of course i can get much more powerful pc with same money.



I would definitely recommend getting a good computer, I only know Windows PC, so for that I suggest minimum 16 gb RAM and I can't push an extra SSD card enough. Get that stuff, then your options explode. You can always just got Composer Cloud for under thirty US dollars a month, and that has some pretty elite stuff. Especially if the Play engine isn't a problem for you. Even if you_ just_ had Hollywood Strings, your ensemble needs would be more than met in my humble opinion. I only bought Albion because I wanted to try something different, once I heard how great it sounded with the abovementioned HS I bought them all...and have been very satisfied since. But that's just me, as you intimated, not everybody makes a living (or at least pays the rent, in my case) with music.


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## JPQ

Saddly such computer in Finland even i add new DAW is pricey. and i like some Logic synths even i need then replace ES2 maybe even Alchemy what they recently added. Even bigger problem is i want hardware synths many reasons are hard describe but i dream playing in live and i dont talk cinematic or game music and even these things i can use analog synths. And big SSD is still pricey minium which sounds suitable sample library use is 512gigabytes or maybe few smallers.


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## JPQ

it seems SSD prices are dorped at least some models. Sounds good i maybe must think i not fully sure what direction my music making going go.


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## PeterKorcek

Parsifal666 said:


> Cinesamples is really good...I wouldn't trade Hollywood Strings or Albion for it though. Especially the East West, which despite its problems is probably the best sounding, best made in history. Really.



I have almost every EW library, using mainly HW series though, with Stormdrums, Gypsy, Silk, occasionally Ra, Ghostwriter, but I really like the sound of Hollywood strings - it is just amazing to me, top notch despite made in 2011.

Albion series might be more interesting for me cause they add something new (ensembles, experimentation) - i already have strings, brass, woodwinds, etc - if you catch my drift, follow me, ehm, whatever


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## Parsifal666

PeterKorcek said:


> I have almost every EW library, using mainly HW series though, with Stormdrums, Gypsy, Silk, occasionally Ra, Ghostwriter, but I really like the sound of Hollywood strings - it is just amazing to me, top notch despite made in 2011.
> 
> Albion series might be more interesting for me cause they add something new (ensembles, experimentation) - i already have strings, brass, woodwinds, etc - if you catch my drift, follow me, ehm, whatever



Sounds to me like you're already doing pretty darn good. You won't hear anything from me but praise and reccomendation concerning the Albions, and I've been a huge enthusiast of EW HS for quite awhile. Spitfire puts out high quality libraries, full stop.

Another option to at least check out are the Zero-G string collections. They have extremely cool stuff like Animato, which goes on the wilder side of both strings and flutes. They have a lot of other great stuff as well, and I believe they're 50% off now (it might be a day too late for the sale, but if you contact them by email they'll probably give you a break).


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## LondonMike

Excellent resource, thanks for making the thread.

I'd just like to say that you only mentioned the Vienna Special Editions which are a cut down version of their full instruments. The full sections and solo instruments have an enormous range of extra articulations and layers compared to the special editions. 
For example, I have the extended Woodwinds which can cover everything I need (for now). I'm not mad about having to keep the licences on a dongle though, so for most other stuff I use Kontakt based libs.


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## JPQ

Whn i lookwhat flexible set modern sample libraries with modern computer is way too pricey for hobby use for me. Even more when i want do all kind music.(something totally synthetic even). Sorry offtopic even 1500euros sample libraries means i think to me at least putting in three years whole my music budget for samples. Is hard undertand how some hobby musicans can have 3000-4000euros sample sets. Even pros i think is not so easy use such amount money...


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## Takabuntu

I'm with you JPQ, since I'm also doing this as a hobby. I would love to have that kind of budget for samples. But hey, that's life.


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## Jimmy Hellfire

JPQ said:


> Whn i lookwhat flexible set modern sample libraries with modern computer is way too pricey for hobby use for me. Even more when i want do all kind music.(something totally synthetic even). Sorry offtopic even 1500euros sample libraries means i think to me at least putting in three years whole my music budget for samples. Is hard undertand how some hobby musicans can have 3000-4000euros sample sets. Even pros i think is not so easy use such amount money...



It's a very expensive hobby, that's true. But then again, one doesn't need to have all these magnificent toys that hardcore enthusiasts and professionals hoard on their drives just to be able to make music. Lots of great music can be done owning nothing more than VSL Special Edition I. Or Albion ONE. Or Omnisphere 2. Personally, I even think that when someone is just starting out with this stuff, they'd do themselves a favor by limiting themselves to a rather slim collection of samples and plug-ins.


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## Tpulse

It's expensive but lot of fun


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## JPQ

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> It's a very expensive hobby, that's true. But then again, one doesn't need to have all these magnificent toys that hardcore enthusiasts and professionals hoard on their drives just to be able to make music. Lots of great music can be done owning nothing more than VSL Special Edition I. Or Albion ONE. Or Omnisphere 2. Personally, I even think that when someone is just starting out with this stuff, they'd do themselves a favor by limiting themselves to a rather slim collection of samples and plug-ins.



VSL special edition i miss something in brass and strings maybe Miroslav Philharmonik 2 has what i search based audiodemos and old version as well. sometimes i undertanded Albion is too heavy to my computer hard belive when i know how well VSL works and Project Sam True Strike 1. and i dont care much massive things i think i can write good tune using only 5-8 tracks when sounds are good my some tests with VSL shows it but some its sounds lacks something what i say warmth becouse i dont have better word. only serious problem in Albions is pre recorded instrument combinations and their hall is lovely but hard mix with other stuff. later one is worst problem first also if i want put song to notes to play with real orchestra but thing is very likely never happen. My current poor computer is 8gigabytes i5 2.5ghz mac mini 2014. i must buy becouse my old one gets USB problems.


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## ericboehme

JPQ said:


> Whn i lookwhat flexible set modern sample libraries with modern computer is way too pricey for hobby use for me. Even more when i want do all kind music.(something totally synthetic even). Sorry offtopic even 1500euros sample libraries means i think to me at least putting in three years whole my music budget for samples. Is hard undertand how some hobby musicans can have 3000-4000euros sample sets. Even pros i think is not so easy use such amount money...


For some of us, money is not a block. I have an IT job that pays really well, and so I have more discretionary funds. Everyone is in a different place. I would assume pros can buy what they want if they are successful. That is the minority.


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## Polarity

Zhao Shen said:


> *WOODWINDS*


Great work Zhao Shen! 
A very useful database for reminding all orchestral libraries.

Perhaps you should add also Cinesamples HollyWoodWinds (HWW)...
I know that, because users asked for it, they would like to make an updated version with Sony Hall sound...
probably resaving all samples after passing them in a Sony Hall convolution impulse.
But I don't know if they are really working on it now.


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## AllanH

Of all the things I've bought, I'd say Miroslav Philharmonic gives the most flexible "mid-range" full VST orchestra for the money. Many of the solo instruments are excellent. I have not tried the new Miroslav 2, so my experience is with the MP included in SampleTank and the standalone legacy MP1. 

EWQL HO is definitely at a different level, but have been able to mix the solo instruments from Miroslav nicely with HO. Maybe if I get the solo instruments from EWQL, I'll change my view, but for now I'm happy with the solo string instruments from Miroslav.


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## prodigalson

FWIW, I recently upgraded to Play 4.3.0 and it solved many debilitating issues I was having with the Hollywood Orchestra. 

Using Logic Pro X on an iMac 27-inch quad-core i7 with 32 GB RAM streaming from SSD I had loading times of upwards of 10 mins.

Now, my patches load in seconds and I have yet to experience any major glitches or hanging notes etc. with HS or HB. 

I would encourage anyone with issues with Play currently to upgrade to 4.3.0


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## JPQ

ericboehme said:


> For some of us, money is not a block. I have an IT job that pays really well, and so I have more discretionary funds. Everyone is in a different place. I would assume pros can buy what they want if they are successful. That is the minority.



True money income is so limited and i cannot change thing.
ps. to me i like miroslav sound much woodwinds,strings and string sections for example maybe brass is worst area but looks is almost always worst.


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## ericboehme

prodigalson said:


> FWIW, I recently upgraded to Play 4.3.0 and it solved many debilitating issues I was having with the Hollywood Orchestra.
> 
> Using Logic Pro X on an iMac 27-inch quad-core i7 with 32 GB RAM streaming from SSD I had loading times of upwards of 10 mins.
> 
> Now, my patches load in seconds and I have yet to experience any major glitches or hanging notes etc. with HS or HB.
> 
> I would encourage anyone with issues with Play currently to upgrade to 4.3.0


Good to know. I have ordered the same computer that you have; however, I just got my OWC memory today and will initially bump memory up to 40 GB, eventually 64 GB. (late 2015 model on order)


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## prodigalson

ericboehme said:


> Good to know. I have ordered the same computer that you have; however, I just got my OWC memory today and will initially bump memory up to 40 GB, eventually 64 GB. (late 2015 model on order)



I'm sorry, are you saying the 2015 model of iMac can be configured to take 64 GB Ram??


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## Soundhound

The latest version can, yes!


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## prodigalson

https://support.apple.com/kb/SP731?locale=en_US

this page states the "late 2015" model is still configurable to 32Gb....where do you see that a newer model can take 64?


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## prodigalson

ok, never mind. just saw that this is something that OWC is doing. That's pretty cool.


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## Soundhound

Yes they I think sell 128 gig package for the 2013 mac pro, and now 64 for the late 2015 iMac. I think on the Apple site its just 64 and 32 respectively, but the OWC is 'apple approved' or something, enough to have me thinking about it for sure.


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## Rodney Money

Zhao Shen said:


> *BRASS*
> 
> 
> *Symphony Series: Brass Collection *- Native Instruments - Kontakt Player Library
> _Ensemble $400 / Solo $300 / FULL BUNDLE $500_
> _--> http://www.native-instruments.com/e...l-cinematic/symphony-series-brass-collection/_
> 
> _STRENGTHS: _Includes a comprehensive set of articulations and has a great sound. Fantastic-looking interface with lots of control over microphone mixing.
> 
> _WEAKNESSES: _The Symphony Series is not as cohesive as many had hoped - recorded by different companies in different halls in different seating positions. Despite this, the series seems to blend together fairly well.
> 
> _OTHER: _Section sizes are very large - 8 trumpets/8 trombones/8 horns/8 low brass (4 EUPHONIUMS??) - which can be good or bad depending on the sound you want.


This is a little technicality, but I am betting the tuba ensemble is a mixture of 2 bass tubas in either BBb or CC and the 2 tubas in either Eb or F, next 2 or 3 Euphoniums, and 1 or 2 Eb tenor horns which are also called alto horns. If they sampled flugelhorn We could've had a tuba ensemble that went as high as the trumpets! If I sampled this ensemble, I would've selected this instrumentation for tuba ensemble: 2 bass tubas in BBb, 2 euphoniums, 2 tenor horns, and 2 flugelhorns, but then again this is just a dream because I don't know anything about sampling just coming up with ideas.


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## Zhao Shen

Rodney Money said:


> This is a little technicality, but I am betting the tuba ensemble is a mixture of 2 bass tubas in either BBb or CC and the 2 tubas in either Eb or F, next 2 or 3 Euphoniums, and 1 or 2 Eb tenor horns which are also called alto horns. If they sampled flugelhorn We could've had a tuba ensemble that went as high as the trumpets! If I sampled this ensemble, I would've selected this instrumentation for tuba ensemble: 2 bass tubas in BBb, 2 euphoniums, 2 tenor horns, and 2 flugelhorns, but then again this is just a dream because I don't know anything about sampling just coming up with ideas.


From the NI site: 
1 contrabass tuba
3 bass tubas
4 tenor tubas (euphonium)


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## Rodney Money

Zhao Shen said:


> From the NI site:
> 1 contrabass tuba
> 3 bass tubas
> 4 tenor tubas (euphonium)


Not according to their behind the scenes video at 1:30. The instrument to the right looks like a small alto horn and then there is an empty chair beside him. Plus the range, I believe Daniel James said it goes to a high E. A euphonium's tone should max out around a Bb unless they stretched the notes to reach the E.


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## Zhao Shen

Rodney Money said:


> Not according to their behind the scenes video at 1:30. The instrument to the right looks like a small alto horn and then there is an empty chair beside him. Plus the range, I believe Daniel James said it goes to a high E. A euphonium's tone should max out around a Bb unless they stretched the notes to reach the E.


Hm... Interesting that there would be a discrepancy there, you'd think that they know what instruments they sampled.


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## Syneast

This is great stuff. Even though I know most of it I come back to this all the time to organize my thoughts and double check if I forgot something.

I think it would be really helpful to also have one for CHOIR. Are you planning on adding it?


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## BuzzySmith

I'm probably...

1. Late to the party and...
2. More pop oriented.

I have LASS (primary go-to library), Session Strings, GPO, Albion and EWQLSO Gold which can generally handle what I need with some (or lots!) of effort.

However, I'm looking for some library that might get me closer to these, for instance...

Sinatra... 
Streisand...
George Jones... 
Ray Price... 
Christopher Cross... 

This is just a quick sampling, but one can probably get what I'm looking for. Lush pop/country string sections that have that "sweetness". I do know 4 part writing and voicings, so I don't think it's me that's the issue here! I'm also quite comfortable with DAW based EQ, 'verbs, etc. Been engineering for many years.

Considering _Cinematic Strings 2_ and, perhaps, _SS-SE_, but I always feel like I'm having to "dumb down" these libraries since they seem to be targeted for cinema scoring.

Thanks a lot!

Buzzy


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## Jimmy Hellfire

@BuzzySmith - VSL Appassionata Strings can do that kind of thing well. For something that has that sweet lushness, but also a slight bite (like the Ray Price song), I would layer something very lush and big sounding like Appassionatas or Cinematic Strings 2 with a smaller and/or more direct sounding library. From your collection, LASS or Session Strings could do.


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## BuzzySmith

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> @BuzzySmith - VSL Appassionata Strings can do that kind of thing well. For something that has that sweet lushness, but also a slight bite (like the Ray Price song), I would layer something very lush and big sounding like Appassionatas or Cinematic Strings 2 with a smaller and/or more direct sounding library. From your collection, LASS or Session Strings could do.


Thanks, Jimmy!
(I have been known to layer, too.)

I notice on the website that there are a few options. Appassionata Strings 1 _Standard Library_ or _Full Library_ and another option for Appassionata Strings 2. Thoughts? Start with AS1?

Thanks!

Buzzy


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## Jimmy Hellfire

Appassionata 1 Standard covers the essential articulations. The "full" library includes a bunch of additional stuff, which is really cool to have and adds to the expressiveness (even more types of legato, runs, fast repetitions etc). The standard library already covers quite some ground on its own, so it's certainly a good start. One can always expand to the full library later on.

Appassionata 2 Standard/Full is the same deal, but everything _con sordino._


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## LondonMike

I often layer Lass with CS2 if I want more lushness. Lass gives me the soaring violins and the bite when needed and CS adds some warmth. 
The lack of portamento in CS I find a bit of a shortcoming.


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## BuzzySmith

Well, this is annoying!

I'm ordering both Appassionata 1 and CS2.

• *Cinematic Strings* was first. I get the confirmation email with the serial # and the link to the "Advanced Download Manager". It's a Zip file and when unzipped and opened, it does nothing. It appears in the menu bar but with no options other than the standard "About" and "Services...No Services Apply". No window to enter the #. I've emailed [email protected] and used their "Contact" link on the website.

• *Appassionata 1*. Was getting ready to pull the trigger at Sweetwater and noticed that the software required the _Vienna Symphonic Library ViennaKey USB eLicenser Key_. So, I ordered that and later today will order the library as my wife drove off with my billfold!

No real rush, but I was looking forward to spending some of Sunday exploring the new strings.

Just whining...

Buzzy


----------



## Cram

I'm looking for a good (not too expensive) string library. Currently my favourite is CinematicStrings 2 (EUR 300). Anyone compared this to the new NI library Symphony Series String Ensemble (Crossgrade possible, also EUR 300)?
Would there be alternatives in the same price class? Which one would you choose as a "beginner" library?


----------



## Zhao Shen

Cram said:


> I'm looking for a good (not too expensive) string library. Currently my favourite is CinematicStrings 2 (EUR 300). Anyone compared this to the new NI library Symphony Series String Ensemble (Crossgrade possible, also EUR 300)?
> Would there be alternatives in the same price class? Which one would you choose as a "beginner" library?


You can't go wrong with CS2. Around the same price range are 8Dio Adagietto and CineStrings CORE, so give those a listen too. CS2 was my only dedicated orchestral strings library for about a year and a half, and I am very fond of it


----------



## Hat_Tricky

Great post, so nice to have a bunch of info in one place!

Any plans on talking about Reverbs, compression, and tools needed for composers to get the final mix sounding good?


----------



## Zhao Shen

Hat_Tricky said:


> Great post, so nice to have a bunch of info in one place!
> 
> Any plans on talking about Reverbs, compression, and tools needed for composers to get the final mix sounding good?


Not really. Getting into the world of orchestral sampling and understanding the different options available to me was something that took me a long time, and I wanted to help others by offering information here. Post-production tools would be harder to do for a number of reasons (being more subjective, accomplishing the same or similar effect, having extremely similar pros and cons) but it would be interesting. For now though, no plans.


----------



## leon chevalier

Hello Zhao Shen, For VSL stuff almost every user end up buying vienna instrument pro (145€) and at least one MirX venue (79€) so it could be good to mention those softwares. It's a valuable information. 

To me it's almost a requirement to have a quality sound with VSL. 

Cheers!


----------



## jacobthestupendous

Great summary, Zhao! Not to take all of the work involved for granted, but will you be adding information about choirs as well? Either way, thanks!


----------



## Zhao Shen

jacobthestupendous said:


> Great summary, Zhao! Not to take all of the work involved for granted, but will you be adding information about choirs as well? Either way, thanks!


Yours hasn't been the first request, so it has been done. Most choirs are a stub, but good to have them in one place anyway.

Edit: It's in the last post, after Percussion.


----------



## jacobthestupendous

Zhao Shen said:


> Yours hasn't been the first request, so it has been done. Most choirs are a stub, but good to have them in one place anyway.
> 
> Edit: It's in the last post, after Percussion.


Wow, thanks!

I really appreciate the work you're doing here. This thread will be a great resource for people. The formatting is good and clean, and the summaries are concise and helpful.

Thanks again.


----------



## Zhao Shen

Thought I'd bump this guide after a big update today which IMO makes this much more useful. I've updated the layout and products, and consolidated some entries that seemed redundant or illogically organized. Also keep an eye on the new "Upcoming Products" area in the first post, which keeps track of all the goodies headed our way - with release dates if they were announced!

The most important change is probably the new link format, which solves a lot of the problems I had before when pasting raw URLs. For example, adding too many raw URLs makes the entry look very messy and hard to follow, but with the new link format you get the links bundled in with product module/version information and pricing. The new format also allowed me to comfortably add branch-off products to each relevant entry - for example, Berlin Woodwinds now links to all 4 expansions in addition to the main library.

The next step seems to be filling up Woodwinds, Percussion, and Choirs with product descriptions, as they currently seem awfully empty. Can't say I think I'll finish anytime soon, but that's where I'm focused in terms of future updates.

Hope you guys find this helpful! Happy (sample) hunting!


----------



## Silence-is-Golden

STRINGS:

Hi Zhao, others may have said it but I couldn't find it, so maybe add in the Strings section:
- VSL Dimension Strings
- VSL Appassionata strings
- VSL Orchestral STrings
- VSL Chamber/solo strings
Edit: or is it because its another sample player? VI-PRO
- Kirk Hunter strings


----------



## Zhao Shen

Silence-is-Golden said:


> STRINGS:
> 
> Hi Zhao, others may have said it but I couldn't find it, so maybe add in the Strings section:
> - VSL Dimension Strings
> - VSL Appassionata strings
> - VSL Orchestral STrings
> - VSL Chamber/solo strings
> Edit: or is it because its another sample player? VI-PRO
> - Kirk Hunter strings


This is a general guide - in my opinion VSL libraries need quite a bit of massaging to get realistic results, and I am also personally less familiar with them so decided not to offer a relatively uninformed opinion. VSL SE is included in the "Orchestra" section though because it's a pretty solid package - thanks to Muk for providing the description for that!


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Zhao Shen said:


> This is a general guide - in my opinion VSL libraries need quite a bit of massaging to get realistic results



Oh my!

I also heard they eat babies and sacrifice kittens at midnight.

I guess that's the notorious morbid Viennese charm people always talk about.


----------



## Silence-is-Golden

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Oh my!
> 
> I also heard they eat babies and sacrifice kittens at midnight.
> 
> I guess that's the notorious morbid Viennese charm people always talk about.



That we may not go off topic, because this thread is a good initiative and a good guideline.
But indeed, as a few said: purchase MIRx with one venue at least and anyone will find that its easy to use VSL libs, because suddenly they have become 'wet' and blend more easily.

Or contact Guy Bacos......


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Yes, MIRx is fantastic. It not only adds ambience to the samples, but also very good, individually tailored spational positioning/stereo image presets and character EQ setting for every instrument. You just turn it on and it's all correctly seated, properly balanced and the reverb sounds remarkably good. The flexibility it offers is great. You get something that actually very much sounds like an ambient library, but you can still adjust the wet/dry ratio, or even eliminate the tail completely and only keep the positioning + ERs and use a conventional reverb in tandem. It's quite a game changer that somehow still not everyone is aware of. And - it's cheap!

Of course, you will still have to adjust your velocities and dynamics ... although the discerning user might actually be happy that they _can_.


----------



## Silence-is-Golden

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Of course, you will still have to adjust your velocities and dynamics ... although the discerning user might actually be happy that they _can_.


Discerning user here!

What Jimmy says about MIRx is all correct, so all those who can't work with VSL, try it out ( use the demo) and get happy!!


----------



## Reactor.UK

Silence-is-Golden said:


> Hi Zhao, others may have said it but I couldn't find it, so maybe add in the Strings section:
> - VSL Dimension Strings
> - VSL Appassionata strings
> - VSL Orchestral STrings
> - VSL Chamber/solo strings



*VSL Appassionata Strings* give a full and lush sound. These can be layered on top of the Orchestral Strings or Chamber Strings to give it that added warmth.

*VSL Dimension Strings* (as well as the Dimension Brass) have the advantage of Divisi whereby you can control each of the players position, tuning, timing, dynamics as well as allowing you to choose the articulations each player uses, thus you can create an ensemble that moves away from a robotic section of players all doing the same thing.

Regarding cost. Yes, all VSL products are expensive, with standard and full version available. I'd really suggest, if you were interested in any of their products you wait for a sale of some kind.

Also, as mentioned, you can upgrade or complete bundles at any point and differences of cost are subtracted, though, like I say, wait for a sale if you can. Also, look around, sweetwater at times have been better value, depending on where you live regarding VAT.

Mir X allows you to choose a space (each environment can be purchased separately though there is a bundle option).

I am no expert, far, far from it. Though from my experience there is a distinct difference between simple reverbs and creating a virtual space. Mir X allows you to place each instrument or section, choose which way they are projecting (which would differ from instrument to instrument), allows you to control each microphone of the given instrument or section which in turn effects how the sound is distributed in the given acoustic setting.

I would like to reiterate I am no expert, so please take advice from anyone who can correct me or provide alternative methods.

As for why I haven't got them, it's cost. They are on my list. Awaiting a Euro Millions win or a unknown rich relative. Sigh.


----------



## Parsifal666

Go Albion and Hollywood. You won't regret it.


----------



## Will Blackburn

Booked


----------



## X-Bassist

Zhao Shen said:


> This is a general guide - in my opinion VSL libraries need quite a bit of massaging to get realistic results, and I am also personally less familiar with them so decided not to offer a relatively uninformed opinion. VSL SE is included in the "Orchestra" section though because it's a pretty solid package - thanks to Muk for providing the description for that!



Great Guide Zhao- thanks for the work on this. You may want to add a note after Kontakt and Play about VE PRo, as I wish I had found out sooner it could double my instrument capacity (Protools on Mac) with $200 software. Also mentioning which libraries require a USB dongle- iLok2 for play or VSL elisenser (there is the cheaper Steinberg e-liscense that works too) for instance. Both would be helpful for someone starting out. Would be great to have a downloadable pdf version too. Thanks again for the great work.


----------



## Zhao Shen

X-Bassist said:


> Great Guide Zhao- thanks for the work on this. You may want to add a note after Kontakt and Play about VE PRo, as I wish I had found out sooner it could double my instrument capacity (Protools on Mac) with $200 software. Also mentioning which libraries require a USB dongle- iLok2 for play or VSL elisenser (there is the cheaper Steinberg e-liscense that works too) for instance. Both would be helpful for someone starting out. Would be great to have a downloadable pdf version too. Thanks again for the great work.


Thanks for the suggestions! I will try to get around to some of them as soon as I can - studying computer science at a university can be very time consuming!


----------



## RRBE Sound

Woow! Great thread! - Very well organized. 

I am definitely going to be using this one for future library purchases!

Thank you!


----------



## Zhao Shen

I tried to add a new entry to *Strings *today but found that my post was over the character limit. Instead of trying to awkwardly re-position other sections and allowing the Strings section to spill over into another post, I decided to take a few hours and manually migrate the entire guide to my website. Nothing has really changed - the guide is the same, and this forum thread will still be used for questions/comments/feedback like before. Let me know if there's anything about the new formatting you guys would like to change. This also gives me room to expand the guide, in case I feel like adding sections for solo strings, epic percussion, etc.

Guide: http://www.zhaoshencomposer.com/guide

Edit: Also, I haven't completely ignored the requests to incorporate more VSL libraries and information into the guide. Give me some time - I have never used VSL and so it will take a while for me to develop an informed outlook on its uses.


----------



## Zhao Shen

USD conversion prices have been removed (for example, listing the approximate USD price of a Spitfire product). While adding entries for Berlin Brass and Albion V: Tundra today I discovered that my old conversion prices for Spitfire products were completely inaccurate due to the fluctuation in exchange rates.

While I want to make the guide as easy to interpret as possible, I don't want to provide any false information so from now on the guide will not be listing conversion rate prices. Rather, prices will be shown in the currency that their vendor prefers.


----------



## Leon Portelance

I agree that the ewql Woodwinds are the weaker part of the
Hollywood Orchestra (Platinum). I bought the Berlin Woodwinds to replace then and I like them a lot better. I use LASS and LASS Legato Sordino with the Hollywood Strings and Sample Modeling Brass with the Hollwood Brass. I still am going to get more to beef up the percussion. I just bought Auddict Drums of the Deep. And the Kirk Hunter Concert Strings Legacy, 2 & 3. I need more string like I need another hole in my head.


----------



## Zhao Shen

I'm thinking about removing certain entries from this guide - basically setting a higher bar for which libraries are included, if you will. Would appreciate you guys filling out this poll if you have the time. Thanks!


----------



## SJSharky

I would rather see even more options. Also, including cheaper beginner level options and describing how they compare to the top level libraries would be really useful to a lot of people starting out. If you do a google search on orchestral libraries without knowing anything about the subject, you might come away thinking that EWQLSO and Garritan Personal Orchestra are the top of the line even today (which, I guess, they may be depending on your budget and specs).


----------



## Zhao Shen

SJSharky said:


> I would rather see even more options. Also, including cheaper beginner level options and describing how they compare to the top level libraries would be really useful to a lot of people starting out. If you do a google search on orchestral libraries without knowing anything about the subject, you might come away thinking that EWQLSO and Garritan Personal Orchestra are the top of the line even today (which, I guess, they may be depending on your budget and specs).



Hm, great suggestion. I might just end up adding a low-budget/best bang for your buck section. Thanks for the idea!


----------



## Parsifal666

SJSharky said:


> I would rather see even more options. Also, including cheaper beginner level options and describing how they compare to the top level libraries would be really useful to a lot of people starting out. If you do a google search on orchestral libraries without knowing anything about the subject, you might come away thinking that EWQLSO and Garritan Personal Orchestra are the top of the line even today (which, I guess, they may be depending on your budget and specs).



Really cool post, but GPO...hmmm. Hard to think people with even _one_ orchestral library from EW, Spitfire, Hein, Sample Modeling, VSL, Strezov, etc. would think GPO is anywhere near top of the line. It was great for when I started out composing...you know, the Finale Notepad, und so weiter.

I do still use GPO's Solo Cello 3 on occasion, but imo Garritan is one of those libraries that are most obviously for beginners. In a way, Albion One could be considered the greatest upgrade to sketch-instruments since Garritan (EW could be strongly argued too, but we're keeping at least somewhat current for relevance), and perhaps could even be argued a natural progression as one develops one's talent.

My thoughts are just thoughts, I certainly could be wrong on any of them.


----------



## Karsten Vogt

Our enterprise virus scanner just shows this when opening the link:






@Zhao Shen are you phishing?


----------



## Zhao Shen

Karsten Vogt said:


> Our enterprise virus scanner just shows this when opening the link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Zhao Shen are you phishing?



... You got me.

In all seriousness though, I have no clue why that would occur. The site is hosted through Squarespace with no custom code injections... If you do end up finding out the reason that it's blocked, I'd appreciate it if you could let me know!


----------



## Karsten Vogt

I checked and it seems your server's ip/domain is blocked via McAfee's cloud blacklist. 

Visit http://www.trustedsource.org/ and enter your domain:





Contact McAfee ([email protected]) to reset the security reputation for your domain and you should be good to go. McAfee blocks quite a lot but reseting the reputation is no big deal (if it doesn't happen too often). Better safe than sorry. 

Cheers,
Karsten


----------



## Zhao Shen

Karsten Vogt said:


> I checked and it seems your server's ip/domain is blocked via McAfee's cloud blacklist.
> 
> Visit http://www.trustedsource.org/ and enter your domain:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Contact McAfee ([email protected]) to reset the security reputation for your domain and you should be good to go. McAfee blocks quite a lot but reseting the reputation is no big deal (if it doesn't happen too often). Better safe than sorry.
> 
> Cheers,
> Karsten



Interesting... Thanks so much for the info, I never would have known. I will go clear things up with them!


----------



## dzilizzi

Thanks so much for this. I was trying to decide whether to grab the upgrade to Miroslav 2 which is on sale right now. But I realized after looking at this, I would be better off spending my money getting a decent woodwind section, as I have everything else you rated as decent or good (notice, I don't have the great stuff) in individual sections and my SoniVox and Kontakt factory woodwinds are probably as good as the Miroslav 2 ones anyway. And I have some decent solo instruments.

How do you feel about the the VSL SE sections? I notice VSL is not rated on your list, but I'm guessing that is because it is kind of a given for the full setup.


----------



## Zhao Shen

dzilizzi said:


> Thanks so much for this. I was trying to decide whether to grab the upgrade to Miroslav 2 which is on sale right now. But I realized after looking at this, I would be better off spending my money getting a decent woodwind section, as I have everything else you rated as decent or good (notice, I don't have the great stuff) in individual sections and my SoniVox and Kontakt factory woodwinds are probably as good as the Miroslav 2 ones anyway. And I have some decent solo instruments.
> 
> How do you feel about the the VSL SE sections? I notice VSL is not rated on your list, but I'm guessing that is because it is kind of a given for the full setup.



VSL isn't on my list mainly because of my lack of experience with it. I have heard incredible things about the SE woodwinds though, so you will probably not regret picking them up!


----------



## dzilizzi

Zhao Shen said:


> VSL isn't on my list mainly because of my lack of experience with it. I have heard incredible things about the SE woodwinds though, so you will probably not regret picking them up!


Thanks. I think I will probably go for it, unless I find a sale on one of the others. Fortunately, I am not in a hurry. I tend to grab when there are sales. Which is probably why I have a whole bunch of strings and no real woodwinds.


----------



## thousandfold

The guide is perfectly fine. So much that the only things i'd suggest are more for fluff. Like something about how old (but)/relevant the libraries in the list are or which are favored by todays industry standards. It's probably a silly idea though.


----------



## Zhao Shen

thousandfold said:


> The guide is perfectly fine. So much that the only things i'd suggest are more for fluff. Like something about how old (but)/relevant the libraries in the list are or which are favored by todays industry standards. It's probably a silly idea though.



Yeah that's a slippery slope though. Relevance is based on what you're trying to accomplish, and handing out relevance scores could be pretty misleading...

Release date though, that I think would be a fairly useful addition. I'll see what I can do.


----------



## thousandfold

That is very true. Although i did think of something else when I was looking at LASS. LASS is one of those libraries that sucks in the hands of someone who doens't wanna do too much mixing and fiddling around, but in the skilled hands of someone who knows what he/she's doing it stands above all other string libraries, even SSS.

Maybe something like a difficulty rating, well maybe not that.. but in that area.


----------



## Count_Fuzzball

SJSharky said:


> you might come away thinking that EWQLSO and Garritan Personal Orchestra are the top of the line even today (which, I guess, they may be depending on your budget and specs).



Big thanks to Zhao Shen for writing this guide.

I've been out of the VI scene for about 7-8 years and back then, iirc, everyone ranted and raved over GPO, EWQLSO and VSL.. or maybe that was just the circles I visited (KVR, mostly)

"Coming back" now, as it were, it's fantastic to see all these new companies and products that have sprung up, with all the info in one place.

Regarding EWQLSO's status as a 'beginner's library', I was under the impression that it was the bee's knees in terms of orchestral libraries, though I guess time marches on and 11 years of sampling tech later, it's quite the "quantum leap" it originally was?


----------



## Zhao Shen

Count_Fuzzball said:


> Regarding EWQLSO's status as a 'beginner's library', I was under the impression that it was the bee's knees in terms of orchestral libraries, though I guess time marches on and 11 years of sampling tech later, it's quite the "quantum leap" it originally was?



Yep the technology/sampling standards have come a long way! Hollywood Orchestra is the closest to a direct successor to EWQLSO that we'll get


----------



## nhh2907

very useful information. Thanks


----------



## Paul T McGraw

thousandfold said:


> That is very true. Although i did think of something else when I was looking at LASS. LASS is one of those libraries that sucks in the hands of someone who doens't wanna do too much mixing and fiddling around, but in the skilled hands of someone who knows what he/she's doing it stands above all other string libraries, even SSS.
> 
> Maybe something like a difficulty rating, well maybe not that.. but in that area.



Perhaps I am wrong, but I think we probably have at this moment all of the sample libraries anyone could ever need to make wonderful music. What is needed more than additional libraries is training in how to get good results from the existing libraries. I would not object to paying for training videos. I think musicians purchase a new library hoping they can make great music with it, and they still fall short because they do not know how to use the new library any better than the old library. So developers, instead of spending tens of thousands on recording new samples, why not spend a few thousand to make training videos which you can then sell.


----------



## Zhao Shen

Hey all,

The guide has migrated once again! So sorry for the inconvenience, but this is likely the last time this will ever happen. Why? Due to a variety of factors, I've chosen to take down my Squarespace website. But I didn't want to remove the guide from the internet entirely, since I've been told by some VST aficionados that it really helped them make an informed decision.

So I decided to host the guide on its own Wordpress site. I think this is actually pretty beneficial as it makes the guide a self-contained site with its own navigation rather than a weird offshoot of my own work. But more importantly, it's completely free. Here is the new link: https://orchestralvst.wordpress.com/

Please let me know if there are any issues you see - I made a quick manual migration from Squarespace to Wordpress and may have missed some details and/or messed up some formatting in the process.


----------



## madfloyd

I find it weird that 8dio Century Brass doesn't have Tuba.


----------



## axb312

Zhao Shen said:


> Hey all,
> 
> The guide has migrated once again! So sorry for the inconvenience, but this is likely the last time this will ever happen. Why? Due to a variety of factors, I've chosen to take down my Squarespace website. But I didn't want to remove the guide from the internet entirely, since I've been told by some VST aficionados that it really helped them make an informed decision.
> 
> So I decided to host the guide on its own Wordpress site. I think this is actually pretty beneficial as it makes the guide a self-contained site with its own navigation rather than a weird offshoot of my own work. But more importantly, it's completely free. Here is the new link: https://orchestralvst.wordpress.com/
> 
> Please let me know if there are any issues you see - I made a quick manual migration from Squarespace to Wordpress and may have missed some details and/or messed up some formatting in the process.



Hey,

Can you add fluffy audio's dominus to the choir list? Would love to see how it fits into the mix in your opinion....


----------



## Zhao Shen

axb312 said:


> Hey,
> 
> Can you add fluffy audio's dominus to the choir list? Would love to see how it fits into the mix in your opinion....



'Tis done. I see Dominus as a nice pick up. Very lush church-y sound, though it's rather niche. As with all niche products, it'll work wonders if you're in the market for that sort of sound. Don't expect to be able to slap it on whenever a choir is called for.

Going on a tangent, sampling does seem to be heading in the direction of an assortment of niche libraries per section instead of just one. Pros? Enhanced realism and attention to detail due to focus, potential to make writing in certain genres/styles a breeze. Cons? Varying/inconsistent specifications (scripting, hall, sections, articulations, etc), price.


----------



## axb312

Zhao Shen said:


> 'Tis done. I see Dominus as a nice pick up. Very lush church-y sound, though it's rather niche. As with all niche products, it'll work wonders if you're in the market for that sort of sound. Don't expect to be able to slap it on whenever a choir is called for.
> 
> Going on a tangent, sampling does seem to be heading in the direction of an assortment of niche libraries per section instead of just one. Pros? Enhanced realism and attention to detail due to focus, potential to make writing in certain genres/styles a breeze. Cons? Varying/inconsistent specifications (scripting, hall, sections, articulations, etc), price.



Price is a major con for me. If I want a versatile choir there really isn't one right now.

A seemingly good option right now is
Dominus choir - can be had for around 319 USD - for the slower, legato stuff
Oceania - around 149 USD on sale - for the more epic, staccato stuff
as suggested by another forum member on here.

Which brings it to around 468 for choirs seemingly covering all bases (expect children's voices)...:(

What do you think?

I also do not believe the upcoming Storm Choir 3 and spitfire choirs will fit the versatility bill (can never be sure though)....

Sorry state of affairs if you ask me....


----------



## Zhao Shen

axb312 said:


> Sorry state of affairs if you ask me....



It's not that surprising. Historically choirs have been the second hardest product to get sounding good (behind solo strings), and absolutely the hardest to capture a comprehensive amount of samples for. 

I'd wager that Spitfire's Whitacre choir is going to be in the same vein as Dominus, so wouldn't hold my breath for that, even though it's sure to be gorgeous. Storm Choir 3 might have many of the same versatility issues as Storm Choir 2, though it should be right around the corner if you choose to wait for it. 

If you feel like Dominus and Oceania have everything you would want in your compositions, then by all means go for it.


----------



## paularthur

Any chance in a piano section going up?


----------



## Nils Neumann

axb312 said:


> Which brings it to around 468 for choirs seemingly covering all bases (expect children's voices


Not even close


----------



## Zhao Shen

paularthur said:


> Any chance in a piano section going up?


Nope. Not much to say there, as it's basically individual preference + what context you plan on using it in.


----------



## axb312

Nils Neumann said:


> Not even close


Explain?


----------



## Jay Panikkar

@Zhao Shen Sorting the libraries based on cost would be useful for most people, imo. Information regarding dynamic/velocity layers would be very useful as well.


----------



## Zhao Shen

Jay Panikkar said:


> @Zhao Shen Sorting the libraries based on cost would be useful for most people, imo. Information regarding dynamic/velocity layers would be very useful as well.



Hey, appreciate the feedback. The issue is that sorting by cost feels awkward, because it often results in presenting the older and least relevant libraries first. Dynamic/velocity layer information is unavailable for some libraries, and nowadays it's not very relevant to the quality of the library, since they all have a good amount. The disparities in quality usually lie elsewhere.


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

axb312 said:


> Price is a major con for me. If I want a versatile choir there really isn't one right now.
> 
> A seemingly good option right now is
> Dominus choir - can be had for around 319 USD - for the slower, legato stuff
> Oceania - around 149 USD on sale - for the more epic, staccato stuff
> as suggested by another forum member on here.
> 
> Which brings it to around 468 for choirs seemingly covering all bases (expect children's voices)...:(
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> I also do not believe the upcoming Storm Choir 3 and spitfire choirs will fit the versatility bill (can never be sure though)....
> 
> Sorry state of affairs if you ask me....


Have you considered Voxos by Cinesamples?


----------



## Henu

I own too many choir libraries. 

Voxos is superclean and almost too polished at times. The soprano legatos are freaking _awesome_ in a right context, though. I've recently started fool around with Olympus and I have been very positively surprised about it. It's a really good crossbreed between Voxos' cleanness and e.g. Oceania's _conan- esque_ superpowerness. Concerning Requiem (light), I think that would fall somewhere between Olympus and Oceania on the power- side. But unfortunately, I don't find it very versatile. I suggest to check out Olympus, for I think it might offer the best bang for you money in this situation.


----------



## RandomComposer

Zhao Shen said:


> Hey, appreciate the feedback. The issue is that sorting by cost feels awkward, because it often results in presenting the older and least relevant libraries first. Dynamic/velocity layer information is unavailable for some libraries, and nowadays it's not very relevant to the quality of the library, since they all have a good amount. The disparities in quality usually lie elsewhere.



Would you be willing to include some of the solo woodwind libraries (e.g. CH, Fluffy)? It would be nice to see a comparison between those and the standard woodwind libraries.


----------



## GearNostalgia

Nice summary of a lot of VSTs. There is only one this missing to make this guide complete. A sign of warning for new users about the fact that many companies have a zero resale/refund policy. Also I wonder if you own and play all those libraries or if it is an impression made from demovideos for the products?


----------



## toddkedwards

RandomComposer said:


> Would you be willing to include some of the solo woodwind libraries (e.g. CH, Fluffy)? It would be nice to see a comparison between those and the standard woodwind libraries.


Just buy Berlin Woodwinds, that's all you will need!


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

toddkedwards said:


> Just buy Berlin Woodwinds, that's all you will need!


I can vouch for that as well.


----------



## keepitsimple

Checking 8dio collection on their website. Holy cow these guys love strings or what, i mean how many string libraries they put out? 

So which one is the most sought after? The article mentions Century Strings but doesn't mention the others.


----------



## dzilizzi

Century Strings are their newest product. The Anthology is the combination of the prior products that also can be bought separately. The rest are partial libraries for the most part.


----------



## RandomComposer

Curious about why HW brass isn't in the brass section, it often goes on sale to $200 which is an incredible value for a solid brass library. It also does a better job of the louder dynamics than some of the other brass libraries imo.


----------



## JohnBMears

RandomComposer said:


> Curious about why HW brass isn't in the brass section, it often goes on sale to $200 which is an incredible value for a solid brass library. It also does a better job of the louder dynamics than some of the other brass libraries imo.



It's under the ORCHESTRA tab as an entire package....


----------



## RandomComposer

JohnBMears said:


> It's under the ORCHESTRA tab as an entire package....


Ah, so it is. Although I'm confused at to why it's not split when other orchestral packages (such as Spitfire) are split into individual sections. There may be people looking for just a single section and go directly to those sections.


----------



## JohnBMears

RandomComposer said:


> Ah, so it is. Although I'm confused at to why it's not split when other orchestral packages (such as Spitfire) are split into individual sections. There may be people looking for just a single section and go directly to those sections.



Actually on second look, it appears each separate 'breakout' page that is linked from the Orchestra page has been deleted....so that is odd


----------



## Zhao Shen

RandomComposer said:


> Ah, so it is. Although I'm confused at to why it's not split when other orchestral packages (such as Spitfire) are split into individual sections. There may be people looking for just a single section and go directly to those sections.



I kind of decided to narrow the focus of the guide a bit after realizing that it was getting hard to decide which releases I needed to cover versus which would just be bad suggestions for a beginner - it is a beginner's guide after all. IMO it is simply not worth it to buy individual Hollywood products when you can get the whole orchestra for not much more.

I am thinking of making a comprehensive index of most useful/valuable products though that isn't as limited in scope.


----------



## rpossum

Zhao Shen said:


> *Buyer's Basic Guide to Orchestral Sample Libraries*
> 
> https://orchestralvst.wordpress.com/
> 
> This thread will continue to be the main source for questions/comments/input on the guide. Post any of your concerns here!


Wow ... absolutely incredible. What a great resource!


----------



## madfloyd

rpossum said:


> Wow ... absolutely incredible. What a great resource!



Unfortunately it's very out of date.


----------



## Parsifal666

madfloyd said:


> Unfortunately it's very out of date.



Interestingly (to me at least), it is somewhat out of date, yet is completely missing the EW Hollywood series. Pretty bad oversight, considering most of the composers I know still use at least the Strings and Brass. Hard to beat for clean ensemble samples, imo.


----------



## Zhao Shen

Parsifal666 said:


> Interestingly (to me at least), it is somewhat out of date, yet is completely missing the EW Hollywood series. Pretty bad oversight, considering most of the composers I know still use at least the Strings and Brass. Hard to beat for clean ensemble samples, imo.



Nah, Hollywood Orchestra is on there, I just couldn't bring myself to mention it in the individual orchestral section pages because it's simply not worth it to buy individual volumes.

And yes, it's pretty out of date, as I've been extremely busy for the past few months. Hope to remedy that soon... Gotta catch up on that whirlwind of brass releases!


----------



## Parsifal666

Zhao Shen said:


> Nah, Hollywood Orchestra is on there, I just couldn't bring myself to mention it in the individual orchestral section pages because it's simply not worth it to buy individual volumes.
> 
> !



I meant the individual volumes: Strings and Brass (Hollywood). And they are more than worth it, even at full price. I'm not the only professional whom thinks that.


----------



## Zhao Shen

Parsifal666 said:


> I meant the individual volumes: Strings and Brass (Hollywood). And they are more than worth it, even at full price. I'm not the only professional whom thinks that.



I agree, but Hollywood Orchestra gives you much more bang for your buck. You do make a good point though, I never really considered the effect this might be having as people looking for just a string library aren't going to browse the Orchestra page. I may end up taking HO off the Orchestra page and re-incorporating it into the section pages, with a note about the bundle being great value.


----------



## Parsifal666

Zhao Shen said:


> I agree, but Hollywood Orchestra gives you much more bang for your buck. You do make a good point though, I never really considered the effect this might be having as people looking for just a string library aren't going to browse the Orchestra page. I may end up taking HO off the Orchestra page and re-incorporating it into the section pages, with a note about the bundle being great value.



Definitely worth the bucks. Sounds like a cool idea.


----------



## PianoMan7

Zhao Shen said:


> Nah, Hollywood Orchestra is on there, I just couldn't bring myself to mention it in the individual orchestral section pages because it's simply not worth it to buy individual volumes.
> 
> And yes, it's pretty out of date, as I've been extremely busy for the past few months. Hope to remedy that soon... Gotta catch up on that whirlwind of brass releases!



Zhao Shen, any update as to when a noobie like me can be expecting an up-to-date guide? I'm just starting out in the sample world. Subscribed to Composer Cloud X at the end of November, and I just got shafted. I was experiencing software problems and lost it, so I'm getting refunded and my CCX subscription is ending early. The hunt now begins for sample libraries that I can actually own...

EDIT: Just clicked on the link, saw that it was updated last in December. Nevermind! Looking forward to taking a detailed look at this!


----------



## Zhao Shen

PianoMan7 said:


> Zhao Shen, any update as to when a noobie like me can be expecting an up-to-date guide? I'm just starting out in the sample world. Subscribed to Composer Cloud X at the end of November, and I just got shafted. I was experiencing software problems and lost it, so I'm getting refunded and my CCX subscription is ending early. The hunt now begins for sample libraries that I can actually own...
> 
> EDIT: Just clicked on the link, saw that it was updated last in December. Nevermind! Looking forward to taking a detailed look at this!



Yeah actually, I've been thinking a lot about the guide. Hopefully I will get around to updating it, but I am also considering letting someone else take over, since I will be starting a full-time job this year and music composition continues to move closer toward pure hobby territory for me.


----------



## Aceituna

madfloyd said:


> Unfortunately it's very out of date.


What recent libraries would you include?


----------



## toomanynotes

Is it better for me to subscribe for 1 month with EW to see if I don't have technical problems getting Play to work? Plus decide if I want to buy any of their stuff? Isn't that a no-brainer? It's only $20 special discount.


----------



## jaketanner

toomanynotes said:


> Is it better for me to subscribe for 1 month with EW to see if I don't have technical problems getting Play to work? Plus decide if I want to buy any of their stuff? Isn't that a no-brainer? It's only $20 special discount.



Consider it a sample library trial period. Wish all libraries had a feature like that...if you feel that EW is the library you want to invest in, then yes...get the subscription. I subscribe when I need their Spaces II reverb...no other reason for me.


----------



## mybadmemory

Any chance of getting this updated to include more recent libraries as well? Perhaps letting other people contribute if you don't have time?


----------



## darthdeus

Too bad the music industry doesn't have a collaborative tool like GitHub where people could just make change requests with additional libraries and stuff. I mean as a developer I feel like it would be the perfect solution, but I can understand why most musicians would avoid it


----------



## Zhao Shen

darthdeus said:


> Too bad the music industry doesn't have a collaborative tool like GitHub where people could just make change requests with additional libraries and stuff. I mean as a developer I feel like it would be the perfect solution, but I can understand why most musicians would avoid it



Funny you should mention that. Currently working on migrating the guide to GitHub pages so that this very thing becomes easy to do. Was stuck a while on finding an appropriate theme but think I figured it out. Just working on it in my free time right now, but will update this thread when it's done.

Also, just a note - this will open the guide up to contributions, but it won't make the guide a collaborative document. I will deny pull requests when I personally disagree with the information added. Maybe that rubs some people the wrong way, but I think it's important for the guide to be wholly consistent instead of representing a smattering of different people's (possibly contradictory) opinions.


----------



## darthdeus

Zhao Shen said:


> Also, just a note - this will open the guide up to contributions, but it won't make the guide a collaborative document. I will deny pull requests when I personally disagree with the information added. Maybe that rubs some people the wrong way, but I think it's important for the guide to be wholly consistent instead of representing a smattering of different people's (possibly contradictory) opinions.



This is definitely a good idea. Some curation and moderation in collaborative efforts is necessary. I'd say the main value in PRs in this case is that they at least let you know of things you've potentially missed out on. Even if you completely change the pros/cons and just include the library "name" from the PR it's imo still worth it, especially for nubs like me who might browse these guides simply to discover what options are out there.


----------



## Zhao Shen

darthdeus said:


> This is definitely a good idea. Some curation and moderation in collaborative efforts is necessary. I'd say the main value in PRs in this case is that they at least let you know of things you've potentially missed out on. Even if you completely change the pros/cons and just include the library "name" from the PR it's imo still worth it, especially for nubs like me who might browse these guides simply to discover what options are out there.



Yeah PRs will be great, but actually something I completely forgot about when considering GitHub as a platform to use is the issue tracker. PRs can be kind of a pain to work out especially if you don't have previous experience with Git and version control in general, but reporting an issue is super simple and it will be great to have a centralized source for recording all the bugs and requests people have, as well as being able to report progress on the resolution of each one.


----------



## Zhao Shen

The new guide is live! Well, it's basically the same but with some updates since it was 2 years old. Here's hoping all the theoretical planning for how much better a GitHub site would be actually translates! Please let me know if you guys run into any issues.






A Basic Guide to Orchestral Sample Libraries · A Basic Guide to Orchestral VSTs


A Basic Guide to Orchestral Sample Libraries Author: StormSound Last updated/Changes made: Information for all updates is available in the GitHub r...




stormsoundmusic.github.io


----------



## mybadmemory

Fantastic! 

Two very popular current options that might be good to add to the orchestra category are BBCSO and Nucleus!


----------



## Noc

Love the new digs. However, I noticed some libraries included in the old guide aren’t in the new one, like LASS and Voxos. Any particular reason they were removed?


----------



## Zhao Shen

Noc said:


> Love the new digs. However, I noticed some libraries included in the old guide aren’t in the new one, like LASS and Voxos. Any particular reason they were removed?



The guide is meant to do a brief survey of the best options on the market. Voxos simply doesn't hold up to its alternatives nowadays. 

LASS was harder to decide on as it's still cherished by many, but strings sampling is filled with fierce competition and innovation, and I finally decided it was time to retire it from the guide. A major factor in that was out-of-the-box experience, and wanting to pare down the already quite hefty Strings page. It isn't my intent to have the guide be an index of every good library that ever existed.


----------



## darthdeus

I'd still suggest maybe including a list of those that were intentionally removed or not put in the list because of quality. For beginners who are overwhelmed by choice it might be useful to see just something like "Libraries intentionally left out for quality reasons: Voxos, LASS, ..." or something like that. Just knowing that they were considered is useful when browsing various reviews and guides and seeing which reviewer looked at what.


----------



## Kent

darthdeus said:


> I'd still suggest maybe including a list of those that were intentionally removed or not put in the list because of quality. For beginners who are overwhelmed by choice it might be useful to see just something like "Libraries intentionally left out for quality reasons: Voxos, LASS, ..." or something like that. Just knowing that they were considered is useful when browsing various reviews and guides and seeing which reviewer looked at what.


Funny you should choose two libraries that I consider to be among the very highest tier of quality in their respective categories for this example


----------



## darthdeus

kmaster said:


> Funny you should choose two libraries that I consider to be among the very highest tier of quality in their respective categories for this example



I didn't choose them myself, I'm just quoting what was said above


----------



## Zhao Shen

darthdeus said:


> I'd still suggest maybe including a list of those that were intentionally removed or not put in the list because of quality. For beginners who are overwhelmed by choice it might be useful to see just something like "Libraries intentionally left out for quality reasons: Voxos, LASS, ..." or something like that. Just knowing that they were considered is useful when browsing various reviews and guides and seeing which reviewer looked at what.



I understand the motivation, but I think it's a tricky thing. There are many libraries I consider adding, but just because I choose not to add one or end up removing another, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm condemning anyone that buys them, or even giving them all the same amount of consideration. I think a list of "these libraries are specifically not on this list" could be misleading to the guide's target demographic.

Speaking of which, this guide is targeted toward people who are less comfortable with surveying the orchestral sampling landscape for themselves. I personally feel that I have a pretty good ear for identifying libraries that are more realistic/usable than others, but I don't claim to be the objective and authoritative source on what defines a "good" library. However, if I was introducing someone newer to samples to orchestral libraries, I wouldn't recommend getting LASS or Voxos with all the other options out there. There are bound to be differences between my own opinions and the opinions of each user in this forum, and I think that's simply inevitable.


----------



## Dr.BrainyPopsin

one guys one pratical question, what is the best library that fits with the tons of phrases I am buying from SonoKinetic ? i am thinking about BBC core or nucleus may be else? I mean in term of sound since I want a perfect legato


----------



## Dr.BrainyPopsin

All right? it seems like a low intensity conflict here, don't argue, can we back to the main topic? what shall I buy to blend in legato type with phrases libs from Sonokinetic?  please


----------



## TheKRock

Zhao Shen said:


> I understand the motivation, but I think it's a tricky thing. There are many libraries I consider adding, but just because I choose not to add one or end up removing another, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm condemning anyone that buys them, or even giving them all the same amount of consideration. I think a list of "these libraries are specifically not on this list" could be misleading to the guide's target demographic.
> 
> Speaking of which, this guide is targeted toward people who are less comfortable with surveying the orchestral sampling landscape for themselves. I personally feel that I have a pretty good ear for identifying libraries that are more realistic/usable than others, but I don't claim to be the objective and authoritative source on what defines a "good" library. However, if I was introducing someone newer to samples to orchestral libraries, I wouldn't recommend getting LASS or Voxos with all the other options out there. There are bound to be differences between my own opinions and the opinions of each user in this forum, and I think that's simply inevitable.


Your guide totally helped me when I was starting out! Many thanks to you for creating and maintaining it!


----------



## Zhao Shen

Dr.BrainyPopsin said:


> one guys one pratical question, what is the best library that fits with the tons of phrases I am buying from SonoKinetic ? i am thinking about BBC core or nucleus may be else? I mean in term of sound since I want a perfect legato



Hard to say. One issue is that many phrase-based libraries from Sonokinetic also have distinctive sounds, and in my experience the phrases are most suitable for enhancing the realism of what already exists (especially since they usually are separated into low/mid/high string/brass/woodwind ensembles, which makes replicating the orchestration of specific phrases a bit troublesome).

In that sort of layering context I think a lot of different libraries work well with Sonokinetic phrase libraries, but maybe someone else can comment on what library they've found to be the best for essentially extending the standalone sound of the phrases.



TheKRock said:


> Your guide totally helped me when I was starting out! Many thanks to you for creating and maintaining it!



Really glad to hear that  Happy to help


----------



## Dr.BrainyPopsin

Zhao Shen said:


> Hard to say. One issue is that many phrase-based libraries from Sonokinetic also have distinctive sounds, and in my experience the phrases are most suitable for enhancing the realism of what already exists (especially since they usually are separated into low/mid/high string/brass/woodwind ensembles, which makes replicating the orchestration of specific phrases a bit troublesome).
> 
> In that sort of layering context I think a lot of different libraries work well with Sonokinetic phrase libraries, but maybe someone else can comment on what library they've found to be the best for essentially extending the standalone sound of the phrases.
> 
> 
> 
> Really glad to hear that  Happy to help


thanks a lot I bought core  now I dont know if I am upgrading to pro or I look somewhere else, still few hours to go


----------



## Danno

darthdeus said:


> I'd still suggest maybe including a list of those that were intentionally removed or not put in the list because of quality. For beginners who are overwhelmed by choice it might be useful to see just something like "Libraries intentionally left out for quality reasons: Voxos, LASS, ..." or something like that. Just knowing that they were considered is useful when browsing various reviews and guides and seeing which reviewer looked at what.


I agree with darthdeus. I’m one of those noobs who is overwhelmed by the huge amount of conflicting info. Some of this info is just a company’s marketing hype. Some may come from paid shills (I’m cynical). Some may come from people with experience with a single product that meets their specific needs (i.e., they are biased). And some may come from unbiased analysis.

As one of the noobs, it’s extremely difficult for me to sift out which libraries will best meet my needs. And buying libraries just to ”sift” can be very expensive. Fortunately I can afford better libraries. But I don’t want to waste money on libraries that don’t make the cut. Including a list of these ”lesser” libraries would help me tremendously.

Thanks,

Dan.


----------



## dzilizzi

I really want to know how to become a paid shill. 

But I do agree it is hard to say who has what prejudices towards various developers when first starting out. After you get to know a lot of them you can see the various reasons for likes and dislikes, usually caused by good or bad experiences. The problem is workflow and sound are the biggest things that affect whether a library will work for you or not, once you get to a certain level of libraries. And it is hard to tell what will work without being able to try them out. Currently, only EW only really lets you try (for a one time fee for a month of use)


----------



## river angler

CHIS HEIN orchestral libraries

Not surprised to see there is no mention of any of Chris Hein's orchestral libraries! For some reason unbeknown to me they so often get overlooked which is a pity as they are a very underrated collection of orchestral libraries covering all sections except percussion. IMO The vast range of articulations and extreme flexibility of the CH engine to tame the samples to exactly what you need both while playing them and editing in the piano roll outshines all other developers.

Among outstanding features common to all Chris Hein orchestral libraries:

Fantastically sampled instruments with zero phasing across the whole range and an extremely realistic, inspiring sound.
Samples recorded bone dry without any baked in ambience so can be custommed to blend into any mix
Complete control over dynamics of sustained samples with key velocity, cc or even a combination of the two!
"Note Head" feature for adding shorts/spiccato to sustained articulations controllable by key velocity or cc.
Highly programable legato/vibrato
Vast selection of articulations
Two ambience/reverb/initial reflection/room engines per instrument
Mute articulations for solo brass
Fully customisable mapping of key triggering
Awe inspiring solo instruments! Best I've ever heard!


----------



## bill5

Zhao Shen said:


> The new guide is live! Well, it's basically the same but with some updates since it was 2 years old. Here's hoping all the theoretical planning for how much better a GitHub site would be actually translates! Please let me know if you guys run into any issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Basic Guide to Orchestral Sample Libraries · A Basic Guide to Orchestral VSTs
> 
> 
> A Basic Guide to Orchestral Sample Libraries Author: StormSound Last updated/Changes made: Information for all updates is available in the GitHub r...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stormsoundmusic.github.io


The effort here is appreciated (and great UI esp for something on Github!), but there are way too many major players missing from the list. As darthdeus said, you should include those you don't recommend so people know why they aren't recommended...otherwise, they just assume you didn't try them out. And those you haven't tried out, list them too. Beginners want to know what's out there and why they should or shouldn't consider.


----------



## Zhao Shen

bill5 said:


> The effort here is appreciated (and great UI esp for something on Github!), but there are way too many major players missing from the list. As darthdeus said, you should include those you don't recommend so people know why they aren't recommended...otherwise, they just assume you didn't try them out. And those you haven't tried out, list them too. Beginners want to know what's out there and why they should or shouldn't consider.


That's very fair, but I've been busy and haven't had the time to add a ton to the guide. Maybe I can keep that in mind the next time I get a chance to work on it.


----------



## Reznov981

This is super helpful for me, as right now I'm trying to find the right orchestral suite. Would love anyone's thoughts and recommendations/warnings. I have Spitfire's BBC Discover and I want to take my sounds to the next level, with a bit of money put into it. I was looking at upgrading to the BBC pro or even Sonuscore's The Orchestra Complete 2. Thoughts? Thanks guys and OP! Great list!


----------



## doctoremmet

Reznov981 said:


> Sonuscore's The Orchestra Complete 2.


Great concept, but hardly comparable to BBCSO Core or Pro. If I were you (and you seem to like Discover) I would wait for a sale on BBCSO Core and see what that brings you. Work with that a while and then decide whether you think you need the extras that Pro offers (in terms of extra instruments and microphones). Maybe at that point you feel you want to diversify towards other types of libraries (more textural ones, ones that offer different types of instruments, more electronic or epic sounding ones - who knows).

The Orchestra Complete 2 is great. But it is geared towards achieving different goals than BBCSO Pro. So a choice between those two is a difficult one to grasp.


----------



## mybadmemory

Reznov981 said:


> This is super helpful for me, as right now I'm trying to find the right orchestral suite. Would love anyone's thoughts and recommendations/warnings. I have Spitfire's BBC Discover and I want to take my sounds to the next level, with a bit of money put into it. I was looking at upgrading to the BBC pro or even Sonuscore's The Orchestra Complete 2. Thoughts? Thanks guys and OP! Great list!


I wouldn't go directly from discover to Pro, but rather go to Core first (at a sale for under €250) and see if you like that before potentially moving to Pro later. The difference and value going from Discover to Core is amazing, but Pro is a harder sell for most people, thought it does make sense for some.


----------



## Reznov981

doctoremmet said:


> Great concept, but hardly comparable to BBCSO Core or Pro. If I were you (and you seem to like Discover) I would wait for a sale on BBCSO Core and see what that brings you. Work with that a while and then decide whether you think you need the extras that Pro offers (in terms of extra instruments and microphones). Maybe at that point you feel you want to diversify towards other types of libraries (more textural ones, ones that offer different types of instruments, more electronic or epic sounding ones - who knows).
> 
> The Orchestra Complete 2 is great. But it is geared towards achieving different goals than BBCSO Pro. So a choice between those two is a difficult one to grasp.


What would you say is the goal of The Orchestra Complete? More epic, trailer sounding stuff?

Thanks for the thoughtful advice! Appreciate it heaps. There is a very temporary big education sale (40% off only for Sep/Oct) and I do know the type of music I wrote, so IF I upgraded, I think I'd go to pro? Maybe I'm a dumb dumb, but I just want my education 40% off lmao.

Unless you think, there's a more quality and diverse orchestra suite for a similar price? 😏


----------



## Reznov981

mybadmemory said:


> I wouldn't go directly from discover to Pro, but rather go to Core first (at a sale for under €250) and see if you like that before potentially moving to Pro later. The difference and value going from Discover to Core is amazing, but Pro is a harder sell for most people, thought it does make sense for some.


That's a helpful consideration and I appreciate you letting me know. 🙂 Curious why it's a harder sell to go to Pro? You'll see in my response to doctoremmet why I'm secretly a little inclined to go to pro, lol.


----------



## jaketanner

Reznov981 said:


> I'm secretly a little inclined to go to pro


Do it. I went from discover to pro simply because I knew that the one mic option would be too limiting and frustrating. Never regretted it for a second. People think they don’t “need” the extra mics until you actually have them and see the different options they bring. It’s not just position, it’s a totally different tone also. Not to mention the additional instruments. But as everyone said, wait for a sale or if your a student or teacher, apply for the EDU discount which I believe is currently 40%. Good luck.


----------



## Reznov981

jaketanner said:


> Do it. I went from discover to pro simply because I knew that the one mic option would be too limiting and frustrating. Never regretted it for a second. People think they don’t “need” the extra mics until you actually have them and see the different options they bring. It’s not just position, it’s a totally different tone also. Not to mention the additional instruments. But as everyone said, wait for a sale or if your a student or teacher, apply for the EDU discount which I believe is currently 40%. Good luck.


As a current student I am inclined to the 40% off, heh. So I am very tempted towards Pro. Just wanting to put feelers out there about if there might be a better orchestra for a similar price.


----------



## jaketanner

Reznov981 said:


> As a current student I am inclined to the 40% off, heh. So I am very tempted towards Pro. Just wanting to put feelers out there about if there might be a better orchestra for a similar price.


I assure you there isn’t a better option for the price at discount. For a little over $500 for pro, what else comes close? You’re only other option and I’m not sure if it’s in that same price range, would be VSL with the special editions and also orchestral tools with their new library but that is very limited in comparison.


----------



## Reznov981

jaketanner said:


> I assure you there isn’t a better option for the price at discount. For a little over $500 for pro, what else comes close? You’re only other option and I’m not sure if it’s in that same price range, would be VSL with the special editions and also orchestral tools with their new library but that is very limited in comparison.


VSL does seem amazing, but the price is not quite the same as BBCSO, especially with a discount. Thanks for your replies! Very helpful community here!


----------



## madfloyd

I would add that The Orchestra is an interesting 'tool' for inspiration and potential mockups but as a sample library it would be very low on my list.


----------



## RogiervG

mybadmemory said:


> I wouldn't go directly from discover to Pro, but rather go to Core first (at a sale for under €250) and see if you like that before potentially moving to Pro later. The difference and value going from Discover to Core is amazing, but Pro is a harder sell for most people, thought it does make sense for some.


and the pro version takes in 600+ GB drive space (installed)  Albeit for a few extra instruments but mostly for the enormous microphone selections (for a sample library).


----------



## RogiervG

@Reznov981 : do notice that the list is not complete in offerings. Nor is it a Best of the bunch list.
Though the list is a good starting point: On this forum you can find many more libraries being discussed, quite deeply.


----------



## mybadmemory

Reznov981 said:


> That's a helpful consideration and I appreciate you letting me know. 🙂 Curious why it's a harder sell to go to Pro? You'll see in my response to doctoremmet why I'm secretly a little inclined to go to pro, lol.


I’d say it’s a harder sell cause Core gives you very much content for very little money, whereas Pro gives you a little more content for much more money. At least in terms of instruments. If you really want the mics, it’s a different story of course.


----------



## bill5

jaketanner said:


> I assure you there isn’t a better option for the price at discount.


That is your opinion, not fact. (Which I'm not saying I do or don't agree with.) 

Reznov, do yourself a favor and read through some of the threads on this site...some people are huge fans of BBSCO, some are not, for various reasons. I think it would be wise to listen to all points of view and consider other options about everything, not just how many mic positions there are, before buying. Like what is the UI like, is it a resource hog (how good of a computer do you have?), what articulations does it have, what if any ensembles does it come with, what if any solo instruments does it come with, etc etc. Try to have a good feel for how important all of those things are.


----------



## RogiervG

jaketanner said:


> I assure you there isn’t a better option for the price at discount. For a little over $500 for pro, what else comes close? You’re only other option and I’m not sure if it’s in that same price range, would be VSL with the special editions and also orchestral tools with their new library but that is very limited in comparison.


Pricepoint is one thing, sound/programming/workflow/articulations/etc.. is another. These do not have to be on the same wavelength. I think that price should be considered secundair to the sound/programming/workflow/articulations/etc part.
If you need to save up (pricepoint) some more to get what you really prefer (product), it might be worth going that route, even if it takes longer to get there, instead of going for the cheaper but less satisfying product (not your first choice).

Note i am not saying BBCSO (core or pro) is less satisfying, im am talking in general (without a specific product in mind)


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## jaketanner

bill5 said:


> That is your opinion, not fact. (Which I'm not saying I do or don't agree with.)


I stand by this...because for the price at discount, there isn't another complete library for just over $500...granted, I agree that if you take into consideration GUI and CPU load...however, there are ways around the CPU load. But in terms of a "complete" orchestra...I don't know of any other (at that sale price).


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## jaketanner

RogiervG said:


> Pricepoint is one thing, sound/programming/workflow/articulations/etc.. is another. These do not have to be on the same wavelength. I think that price should be considered secundair to the sound/programming/workflow/articulations/etc part.
> If you need to save up (pricepoint) some more to get what you really prefer (product), it might be worth going that route, even if it takes longer to get there, instead of going for the cheaper but less satisfying product (not your first choice).
> 
> Note i am not saying BBCSO (core or pro) is less satisfying, im am talking in general (without a specific product in mind)


I can agree that there might be other options IF you take away the price...sure. But what? BBC is the only library that is ONE complete orchestra...not the room, but actual orchestra. Now If price wasn't an option, I'd probably piece together the best of the best (for me), from all different developers and create my own dream team orchestra...LOL.


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## jaketanner

Reznov981 said:


> VSL does seem amazing, but the price is not quite the same as BBCSO, especially with a discount. Thanks for your replies! Very helpful community here!


VSL is excellent. I have several of their libraries...however, the MAIN difference to remember with BBC is that it is literally ONE orchestra. You can easily buy libraries that were recorded in the same room..also from SF, OT, VSL, Cinesamples...etc. But you get the "sound" of the BBC orchestra...whether that is a selling point for you personally, that's your call. I like the sound overall...full disclosure, I started a thread here for improvements that can be made..suggestions, so I am aware it's not perfect...but after a couple of updates, it has gotten better since it first came out.


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## bill5

jaketanner said:


> I stand by this...because for the price at discount, there isn't another complete library for just over $500...granted, I agree that if you take into consideration GUI and CPU load...however, there are ways around the CPU load. But in terms of a "complete" orchestra...I don't know of any other (at that sale price).





jaketanner said:


> BBC is the only library that is ONE complete orchestra


?? These are all LESS than $500 (reg price not on sale)...I'm sure there are others below and around or a bit more than $500 too. Each no doubt has its pros and cons and fans and haters, but no idea why you'd think BBSCO is the only game in town:

East West SO, HO
Sonuscore The Orchestra
VSL Special Edition Essential orch
8Dio Majestica
Orch Tools Berlin Orch Inspire 1
Audio Imperia Nucleus, Jaeger


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## jaketanner

bill5 said:


> ?? These are all LESS than $500...I'm sure there are others below and around or a bit more than $500 too. Each no doubt has its pros and cons and fans and haters, but no idea why you'd think BBSCO is the only game in town:
> 
> East West SO, HO
> Sonuscore The Orchestra
> VSL Special Edition Essential orch
> 8Dio Majestica
> Orch Tools Berlin Orch Inspire 1
> Audio Imperia Nucleus, Jaeger


I didn't say BBC was the only game in town..I said for the price, and as a complete orchestra (which seems it's what Resnov), it's the only option, besides he already has Discover. But I do agree that VSL SE is close as is EW, but the others are ensembles or have a lot less instruments and articulations...so sure, they're cheaper, but they also have less to offer.


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## bill5

jaketanner said:


> I didn't say BBC was the only game in town..I said for the price, and as a complete orchestra (which seems it's what Resnov), it's the only option,


Sorry still not true.  All of the above are complete orchestras.



> besides he already has Discover.


Discover is very limited, certainly more so than anything I listed.



> But I do agree that VSL SE is close as is EW, but the others are ensembles or have a lot less instruments and articulations...so sure, they're cheaper, but they also have less to offer.


What they do/don't offer in terms of specifics varies so in some cases it might be less, but in others as much if not more to offer. For example, BBSCO Core has no ensembles. IMO that's a glaring omission for a "complete" orchestral library and it's one of the very few (offhand the only one I can think of) that does this.


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## jaketanner

bill5 said:


> Discover is very limited, certainly more so than anything I listed.


I mean since he already has it, going to Core or Pro would make sense especially if he likes it.



bill5 said:


> For example, BBSCO Core has no ensembles. IMO that's a glaring omission for a "complete" orchestral


I think you missed the intention behind BBC...it's not just the instruments, it's value is also about it being a true working orchestra...it's like buying a library of the Boston pops. So as an orchestra, there won't be ensembles...and by ensembles, I mean combined patches, not ensemble sections. Although, I could agree that it would have been cool to record some curated combinations like they did with the Abbey Road add-ons.


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## bill5

jaketanner said:


> I mean since he already has it, going to Core or Pro would make sense especially if he likes it.


Ah got ya - yeah makes sense if he likes the sound (though a few here have said the sound isn't necessarily the same in Discover as Core and Pro? I don't mean features, just the sound itself. Can't say.)



> I think you missed the intention behind BBC...it's not just the instruments, it's value is also about it being a true working orchestra...


Which all of the above are as well. I'm just saying there are options and it's subjective. BBSCO isn't the only game in town by a long shot, no matter what qualifiers you include.


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## jaketanner

bill5 said:


> the sound isn't necessarily the same in Discover as Core and Pro?


Oh man...worlds apart from pro. Reason due to the mic options..the tone changes drastically. They really should have just given everyone the tree mic and a close mix, rather than the Mix 1.


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## bill5

I don't mean diff because of more mic positions, I mean the same sound with the same settings etc...and I thought it was a diff between Discover and Core, as well as Pro, but I don't remember the specifics.


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## jaketanner

bill5 said:


> I don't mean diff because of more mic positions, I mean the same sound with the same settings etc...and I thought it was a diff between Discover and Core, as well as Pro, but I don't remember the specifics.


That really can't be compared though, there are no settings in Discover. Discover has 1 dynamic, and baked in reverb and combined mics or maybe just the tree...etc, to give users a taste. May as well be a glorified demo...that is how I used it anyway. The sound of the strings in Discover is what got me to buy the library (they are good)...and they are that much better in the full version. So if someone already likes the sound of Discover, they will LOVE the full version. Discover is curated to be a total of 200 Mbs...so they had to cut corners somewhere.


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## dzilizzi

EWHO Opus is on sale now. You get the best part of "The Orchestra" (the engine, but better) plus an actually usable orchestra. It has the perfect Hollywood sound with more articulations than you might ever need. 

That said, for a beginner, BBCSO Pro is also great, especially because it is recorded in situ and is perfectly balanced, so it doesn't take much work to make it sound great together. 

As a note, I was very disappointed initially with The Orchestra. It sounds a bit synthy to me. But the engine is amazing. So when they built the engine for HO, but with a lot more options, I was really happy.


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## Reznov981

Zhao Shen said:


> *Buyer's Basic Guide to Orchestral Sample Libraries*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Basic Guide to Orchestral Sample Libraries · A Basic Guide to Orchestral VSTs
> 
> 
> A Basic Guide to Orchestral Sample Libraries Author: StormSound Last updated/Changes made: Information for all updates is available in the GitHub r...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stormsoundmusic.github.io
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newly migrated to GitHub pages as of December 2020! There are instructions on the site itself for reporting issues, but I'll continue to answer any questions/comments/input on the guide in this thread.


I’m not sure if this is still being updated and I’m sorry if it’s not (my bad), but for what it’s worth, a couple of helpful updates on the orchestral section might be:
Metropolis ark 5 is out and should be included with the first 4 which you have included.
Albion III Iceini is dead and should be removed.
You mention Berlin Inspire which has “samples taken from the beloved Berlin Orchestra” and then don’t list the Berlin Orchestra with the others 😅 (it’s individual sections are mentioned later I admit)

Otherwise, this really is fantastic.


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## Zhao Shen

Reznov981 said:


> I’m not sure if this is still being updated and I’m sorry if it’s not (my bad), but for what it’s worth, a couple of helpful updates on the orchestral section might be:
> Metropolis ark 5 is out and should be included with the first 4 which you have included.
> Albion III Iceini is dead and should be removed.
> You mention Berlin Inspire which has “samples taken from the beloved Berlin Orchestra” and then don’t list the Berlin Orchestra with the others 😅 (it’s individual sections are mentioned later I admit)
> 
> Otherwise, this really is fantastic.


You're right, the guide was last updated a year and a half ago and I haven't had very much time to work on it since. The attempt to crowdsource contributions via GitHub hasn't been very successful... I'm not sure when the next update will be, but the orchestral sampling landscape is already very different than it was, so if/when it comes, it will likely be quite a big one!


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## Reznov981

Zhao Shen said:


> You're right, the guide was last updated a year and a half ago and I haven't had very much time to work on it since. The attempt to crowdsource contributions via GitHub hasn't been very successful... I'm not sure when the next update will be, but the orchestral sampling landscape is already very different than it was, so if/when it comes, it will likely be quite a big one!


Ah, I didn’t realise it was intended to be a crowd-contributions thing. Sorry that hasn’t worked out super great. :/ maybe you can edit the original post and put it out there that you’d like keen people to contribute?
All the best


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## Zhao Shen

Reznov981 said:


> Ah, I didn’t realise it was intended to be a crowd-contributions thing. Sorry that hasn’t worked out super great. :/ maybe you can edit the original post and put it out there that you’d like keen people to contribute?
> All the best


Good point - done!


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## river angler

No mention of Chris Hein in any of thee lists!...?


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## tmatula

I found the list yesterday and thought it was very helpful! I just created a pull request with the changes suggested from May, and I'd be happy to help out with any other updates (time permitting).


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## Zhao Shen

tmatula said:


> I found the list yesterday and thought it was very helpful! I just created a pull request with the changes suggested from May, and I'd be happy to help out with any other updates (time permitting).


Thanks! The guide is definitely not in the best shape it could be in, but the hope was by putting it on GitHub we could crowdsource knowledge + effort. Thanks for being the first contributor!


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## SkyPirate

Is there a resource for orchestra libraries' resolution, sample rates and possible file formats?


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