# Midi-Controller with Faders for CC? (motorized faders)



## Viegaard (Feb 13, 2017)

Hello!

I was looking at the PreSonus Faderport 8. But it seems you cant assign each motorized fader to send CC,as CC#1 etc.

Are there any good alternatives out there? It has to be;

- motorized faders.
- motorized faders that can be assigned to CC within the controller itself (or via software for the controller).
- Same price or cheaper than Faderport 8.

I want to use the faders to control; Dynamics, Vibrato & Expression etc in Spitfire.


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## synthpunk (Feb 13, 2017)

Behringer X-Touch Compact. (No Mac editor currently though). Switchable between daw & midi cc mode. $399usd.

Motorized faders though is not going to be good for CC's Imo.


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## Vanni (Feb 13, 2017)

http://iconproaudio.com/product/platform-m/

Iconpro audio platform m looks like it can be an outstanding deal, but:

- very little units out there, no reviews yet
- at the moment still no software for mac (mac software under development), which makes it useless unless you are under win.
- no history behind the company

In Europe faderport 8 around 500 eur, iconpro platform m around 270 eur.

IF the iconpro turns out to be reliable etc. i think they will be selling a gazillion of them.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 13, 2017)

I think synthpunk is right.

Motorized faders are good for mixing, or can be, but you don't want to deal with read/write/touch/latch/write to end stuff for performance controls.


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## Viegaard (Feb 13, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I think synthpunk is right.
> 
> Motorized faders are good for mixing, or can be, but you don't want to deal with read/write/touch/latch/write to end stuff for performance controls.



Most low/mid budget midi-controllers out there with faders are SO hard to operate when having to move 3 faders at once, at the same time. The resistance is to high.


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## heisenberg (Feb 13, 2017)

The X-Touch Compact is good. Been using one for a few months. I got mine for the same reason. A cautionary note though. The faders are high-quality, WAY better than the BCF2000, however the faders are noisy in a chattery kind of way even when wearing sealed headphones. When comparing them to a Mackie MCU in terms of fader sound and movement, the Mackie has a dampened approach with a TINY bit of latency response and they are not as twitchy as the X-Touch. I ended up turning OFF the X-Touch motorized faders on the INPUT side which defeats the purpose of motorized faders. Just way to loud and anxiety inducing with the twitchy behavior. I realized that having the faders respond to MIDI output from the DAW on expression, vibrato, etc wasn't necessary to work but couldn't realize it until I had the X-Touch. Everyone works differently but that is my unvarnished experience with it.

I don't believe the Mackie can switch into CC mode like the X-Touch including the Expander, however, I am open to being proven wrong.


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## Viegaard (Feb 13, 2017)

heisenberg said:


> The X-Touch Compact is good. Been using one for a few months. I got mine for the same reason. A cautionary note though. The faders are high-quality, WAY better than the BCF2000, however the faders are noisy in a chattery kind of way even when wearing sealed headphones. When comparing them to a Mackie MCU in terms of fader sound and movement, the Mackie has a dampened approach with a TINY bit of latency response and they are not as twitchy as the X-Touch. I ended up turning OFF the X-Touch motorized faders on the INPUT side which defeats the purpose of motorized faders. Just way to loud and anxiety inducing with the twitchy behavior. I realized that having the faders respond to MIDI output from the DAW on expression, vibrato, etc wasn't necessary to work but couldn't realize it until I had the X-Touch. Everyone works differently but that is my unvarnished experience with it.
> 
> I don't believe the Mackie can switch into CC mode like the X-Touch including the Expander, however, I am open to being proven wrong.



Im not going anywhere near Behringer X-touch or Compact. They feel like a plastic nightmare.


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## heisenberg (Feb 13, 2017)

Viegaard said:


> Im not going anywhere near Behringer X-touch or Compact. They feel like a plastic nightmare.



Have you used one, even for 1 minute? The unit is entirely metal except for the buttons and circular pots. The BCF2000 had plastic slider knobs. I can completely understand a vehement dislike of Behringer equipment but you are falsely accusing the X-Touch of being plasticky. It just isn't.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 13, 2017)

> Most low/mid budget midi-controllers out there with faders are SO hard to operate when having to move 3 faders at once, at the same time. The resistance is to high.



Do you mean motorized ones or regular ones? The only regular ones I've used have been on Kurzweil and Yamaha keyboards, and they've all been absolutely fine.

Well, I guess I've also had some cheap 2-octave things here, but that doesn't really count. And I have had synths in and out for reviews, but I never really paid a lot of attention to the sliders.

Motorized faders are a different story. I could regale the world with incredibly boring narrative about them.


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## synthpunk (Feb 13, 2017)

I believe you're thinking of the older Bcf-2000 fader units that are indeed plastic and kind if junkie. The newer X touch series are well made in Behringers new pro-line factory and designed by the Midas team.

Saying that if you're looking for higher-quality you can take a look at the Avid S-3 which lists for about 5k usd.



Viegaard said:


> Im not going anywhere near Behringer X-touch or Compact. They feel like a plastic nightmare.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 13, 2017)

^ Bargain.


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## tack (Feb 13, 2017)

Vanni said:


> Iconpro audio platform m looks like it can be an outstanding deal, but:
> 
> - very little units out there, no reviews yet


Not a review as such, but I did dump some raw thoughts on the Platform M on another thread that might be useful.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> Motorized faders are good for mixing, or can be, but you don't want to deal with read/write/touch/latch/write to end stuff for performance controls.


These things can be overcome with customizations (and I _just_ started another thread on that subject), but yeah, out of the box the existing control surface protocols don't seem to be terribly well suited for performance.


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## Viegaard (Feb 13, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> I believe you're thinking of the older Bcf-2000 fader units that are indeed plastic and kind if junkie. The newer X touch series are well made in Behringers new pro-line factory and designed by the Midas team.
> 
> Saying that if you're looking for higher-quality you can take a look at the Avid S-3 which lists for about 5k usd.



No. Ive tried the new one that came out last year or so. It feels and sounds like plastic. The big rotary knob feels so bad. The people in the shop (biggest in Denmark/Sweden) even told me not to get it.


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## synthpunk (Feb 13, 2017)

I would disagree I played with one for a few weeks here and also at Jeff Ronas studio and they both felt fine but good luck with everything.



Viegaard said:


> No. Ive tried the new one that came out last year or so. It feels and sounds like plastic. The big rotary knob feels so bad. The people in the shop (biggest in Denmark/Sweden) even told me not to get it.


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## Viegaard (Feb 13, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> I would disagree I played with one for a few weeks here and also at Jeff Ronas studio and they both felt fine but good luck with everything.



I guess its a matter of taste. But if you say that big knob is super quality then you must have been on Toys R' Us products before buying it


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## Viegaard (Feb 13, 2017)

tack said:


> Not a review as such, but I did dump some raw thoughts on the Platform M on another thread that might be useful.
> 
> 
> These things can be overcome with customizations (and I _just_ started another thread on that subject), but yeah, out of the box the existing control surface protocols don't seem to be terribly well suited for performance.



If not motorized. Then I need something with at least 5 faders - Somewhat close to eachother so I can use 3 faders at the same time. And something with very little resistance.

On my Akai MPK261 the faders are very hard to move 3 at once with a finger on each.


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## synthpunk (Feb 13, 2017)

See the Fader Ctrl project in the gear sub forum. 8 smooth penny & Giles 100mm long throw faders, metal box, usb connection, pc/mac editor, hand made by vi-c member, $250 usd.


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## Saxer (Feb 13, 2017)

I'm looking forward to this one
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/faderctrl-universal-midi-controller.58734/

*edit* synthpunk was faster


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## Viegaard (Feb 13, 2017)

Saxer said:


> I'm looking forward to this one
> http://vi-control.net/community/threads/faderctrl-universal-midi-controller.58734/
> 
> *edit* synthpunk was faster



It looks like a nice project. However I would prefer something from a bigger company


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## ZenFaced (Feb 13, 2017)

Viegaard said:


> It looks like a nice project. However I would prefer something from a bigger company



As long as the support is good I'm fine with ordering from small companies, especially custom made products like this. I ordered mine a couple of weeks ago, Can't wait.


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## Viegaard (Feb 13, 2017)

ZenFaced said:


> As long as the support is good I'm fine with ordering from small companies, especially custom made products like this. I ordered mine a couple of weeks ago, Can't wait.



He just wrote that its delayed for another 3 weeks before he can start production.

It is not that I dont want to support small companies (or in this case a person), but there are so many factors that can make it a living hell before you end up with your product - And then if you have issues its all the way back to the US with the product.

Thats why I am looking for something that can be ordered from within the EU.


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## synthpunk (Feb 13, 2017)

Interesting seeing the unit I'm referring to does not have a big knob.  










Viegaard said:


> I guess its a matter of taste. But if you say that big knob is super quality then you must have been on Toys R' Us products before buying it


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## FriFlo (Feb 13, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Motorized faders though is not going to be good for CC's Imo.


I guess I have to keep repeating that for eternity ... you are right, but only because Steinberg and all other DAW developers are to lazy, uninventive, uninterested (or whatever leads to the lack of great sample library handling within DAWs) to improve the workflow with softwareinstruments! It would be great to have feedback for all parameters combined with the usual CC and note editing. Not necessarily for motorized faders, but with a simple tablet the technology has been there for years now to switch to any track and see with a glance at your tablet all of its settings and be able to work from those values right away. It puzzles me, why most people seem to be unable to see how great this is for workflow and why no developer seems to make it work, which is not that hard! I know it is not that hard because I am not a programmer, yet, I made it happen with some easy patches in Max MSP, I programmed. But there are certain limitations to what I can do, because DAWs are simply not made with that idea in mind ...


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## Viegaard (Feb 13, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Interesting seeing the unit I'm referring to does not have a big knob.



Yeah their Compact X-Touch came a bit later. I still dont like it, but its def. an upgrade from the original X-Touch


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## Viegaard (Feb 13, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Interesting seeing the unit I'm referring to does not have a big knob.



Is the faders on the Compact also "crappy" for midi data?


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## Saxer (Feb 13, 2017)

FriFlo said:


> I guess I have to keep repeating that for eternity ... you are right, but only because Steinberg and all other DAW developers are to lazy, uninventive, uninterested (or whatever leads to the lack of great sample library handling within DAWs) to improve the workflow with softwareinstruments!


I think the DAW developers were happy to get rid of the midi restrictions. It's a historic developement, even in that short time midi exists. Before audio and software instruments came into DAWs everything was communicating via midi to external devices only. All automation had to be done with midi. For mixing level faders the midi standard was too rough with 127 steps. Everybody was unhappy with zipper noise at that time.

When audio and instruments came into DAWs all developers included their own automation for mixing and moving plugin instrument parameters in high resolution. The mixing hardware followed with Logic/Mackie Control, Hui etc.
With that step the process of automation was done for the developers. The only serious midi fader left was the pitch- and mod-wheel as part of the keyboard instruments. But that's just for performing.

Suddenly more and more sampler libraries came to market using the mod wheel input for controlling dynamics. Than they added additional parameters to other midi controllers. At the same time the hardware synth renaissance came with midi sending knobs to keep up with the synth-plugins. And now we are back in midi land like in the 90s.

The DAW developers missed to expand the LogicControl/Hui-standard to instruments. Or the instrument developers missed to use the automation for controlling.
Whatever, we now have two automation standards. Seems like we have to live with it.

I think it's not so easy to treat the midi input like automation. 127 steps are not enough for a motor fader not to jump in steps. Acoustic midi noise will be the side effect. Like the old days zipper noise.

Actually we need a growing together of controller hardware for mixing and midi controllers for playing. A first step would be to make Kontakts instrument GUIs automatable. Same for VSL Player. Next step would be automatable hardeware synths and fader/breathcontroller/instruments using automation protocols instead of old school midi.


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## synthpunk (Feb 13, 2017)

The faders will be about the equivalent of any other faders out there, better then the Akai piece of plastic for ie. But if you do not need the motorized functions for mixing it is overkill just to turn them off hence the recommendation for the Fader Ctrl.



Viegaard said:


> Is the faders on the Compact also "crappy" for midi data?


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## Viegaard (Feb 13, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> The faders will be about the equivalent of any other faders out there, better then the Akai piece of plastic for ie. But if you do not need the motorized functions for mixing it is overkill just to turn them off hence the recommendation for the Fader Ctrl.



Well. I guess I will also be using them for mixing, though not my initial goal.


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## synthpunk (Feb 13, 2017)

Perhaps you could order one from Thomann and give it a spin. If you do not care for it you can always return it.

For mixing I recently went back to my single PreSonus Faderport which gets the job done.



Viegaard said:


> Well. I guess I will also be using them for mixing, though not my initial goal.


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## mscp (Oct 17, 2019)

heisenberg said:


> The X-Touch Compact is good. Been using one for a few months. I got mine for the same reason. A cautionary note though. The faders are high-quality, WAY better than the BCF2000, however the faders are noisy in a chattery kind of way even when wearing sealed headphones. When comparing them to a Mackie MCU in terms of fader sound and movement, the Mackie has a dampened approach with a TINY bit of latency response and they are not as twitchy as the X-Touch. I ended up turning OFF the X-Touch motorized faders on the INPUT side which defeats the purpose of motorized faders. Just way to loud and anxiety inducing with the twitchy behavior. I realized that having the faders respond to MIDI output from the DAW on expression, vibrato, etc wasn't necessary to work but couldn't realize it until I had the X-Touch. Everyone works differently but that is my unvarnished experience with it.
> 
> I don't believe the Mackie can switch into CC mode like the X-Touch including the Expander, however, I am open to being proven wrong.



So you can actually turn X-Control Compact's motorized faders off right? This will definitely help my choices as I'm currently looking for one unit I can use for both mixing and CC messages.


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## heisenberg (Oct 17, 2019)

Phil81 said:


> So you can actually turn X-Control Compact's motorized faders off right? This will definitely help my choices as I'm currently looking for one unit I can use for both mixing and CC messages.



I can turn them off in Nuendo/Cubase.


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## Fredeke (Oct 18, 2019)

heisenberg said:


> I ended up turning OFF the X-Touch motorized faders on the INPUT side which defeats the purpose of motorized faders. Just way to loud and anxiety inducing with the twitchy behavior.



Please, tell us how you did that. 

My own solution (which i'll spare you) is too cumbersome.


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## holywilly (Oct 18, 2019)

I wonder if the new console 1 fader can control MIDI CC?

it looks like a great piece of hardware.









Console 1 Fader


Console 1 Fader brings new levels of control over the wider world of your mix. Ride up to ten channels at once, working volume, high-and-low-cut filter values, drive, drive character, and more.




www.softube.com


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## LionLeo120 (Oct 19, 2019)

holywilly said:


> I wonder if the new console 1 fader can control MIDI CC?


Same question with *holywilly*


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## gohrev (Oct 20, 2019)

I realise this little thing pales in comparison to what many of you are working with, but the *Alesis Q25* has a highly responsive mod wheel and a slightly stickier Data Entry fader which can be remapped to basically any CC#.

The keyboard itself is pretty crappy, tbh.


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