# Building a new PC DAW: DDR4 velocity and latency considerations



## manuhz (Nov 27, 2016)

I've recently decided to switch from Mac to PC. Not an easy decision for me, but the total amount for a 128gb machine with latest i7 CPU was unquestionably the main reason.

Now, I am trying to understand wich hardware components make here the biggest diference, mainly regarding to the best possible RAM performance for a 3k Eu PC build. And one thing that I can't determine, is wich specifications are here the most important: are DDR4 2400 modules with 15 cas enough? Or better DDR4 3000 14 cas?

It's impossible so far to find useful information and specific benchmarks on the web if you are not building a gaming PC...wich is not the case here. I will use it as a main DAW with Cubase and mainly Spitfire, Cinesamples and VSL sample libraries.

What do you think? Any specific recomendation please?

Many thanks in advance!


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## ZeroZero (Nov 28, 2016)

Welcome to the PC world - long time Pc user here. The place to ask this question is Tom's Hardware. Best site for this IMO. If you post your proposed build I will take a look. You cant really take one component in isolation.

Post the build.


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## Jdiggity1 (Nov 28, 2016)

For sample streaming, the lower cas latency ratings are best (theoretically). The speed is less important.


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## CACKLAND (Nov 28, 2016)

From my experience, ram speed doesn't have a significant influence on memory access for sample libraries. 

Running Dominator Platinum DDR4 2800 64GB.

As Rgames has stated previously in his tests, amount of ram vs voice limit will suggest that 128gb may be overkill.


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## ZeroZero (Nov 28, 2016)

CACKLAND said:


> From my experience, ram speed doesn't have a significant influence on memory access for sample libraries.
> 
> Running Dominator Platinum DDR4 2800 64GB.
> 
> As Rgames has stated previously in his tests, amount of ram vs voice limit will suggest that 128gb may be overkill.



Like he says. 

+ if you run Cubase and use Disabling tracks, you can run over a thousand tracks in one project, in 6gb, when dormant. If you run other DAWs, I understand Vienna Ensemble Pro is the way to go (I have no expreience). 

So, Daw counts

Z


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## manuhz (Nov 29, 2016)

Hi again and many thaks for the comments. Here are the componets I've listed:

CPU: Intel i7 6800K
Motherboard: Asus X99-A II
Ram: G.Skill Ripjaws V Red DDR4 3000 CL14
SSD OS: Samsung 950 Pro M.2 256GB
SSD Samples: Samsung 850 Evo 2TB + 512GB for project files
Videocard: Asus GeForce GT 730 2GB GDDR5
PSU: Corsair RM750X 750W
OS: MS Windows 10 Pro

What do you think and what would you change?

Best

Manu


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## ZeroZero (Nov 29, 2016)

Looks good, you could go for a fanless graphics card.

You could cut down the size of the project drive and get a pro


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## chimuelo (Nov 29, 2016)

Problems with NVMe M.2s are rarely mentioned because theyre so fast.
On Z97s direct access to the CPU is better than the Z170 PCH stop over.

When M.2s throttle down they are still faster than SATA III SSDs due to random access speeds.
You need special cooling added to an NMVe M.2 for streaming samples to get the most from thier controllers.

MSI made these due out soon.
Obviously they realized what was needed.

I have me eyes on these


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## jamwerks (Nov 29, 2016)

The I7 6800k might not be powerful enough. If you really load up close to 128gb worth of samples, have several dozen eq's, then reverbs, compressors, etc. You will quickly run out of juice. If you plan to go with a one-machine setup, why not get more power (6850 or 6900)?


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## chimuelo (Nov 29, 2016)

AMD Zen looks to shake things up at CES 2017 in Vegas.
At least let them force Intel to drop prices via competition.


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## waveheavy (Nov 29, 2016)

It's not really about the fastest RAM, because actually you don't want to overclock RAM anyway; you may want to slightly underclock your RAM. You want stability. It's the CPU that you would overclock a little. But amount of RAM is important, as the more you have, the more that can be loaded in memory for quick access.

Clock speed of your CPU and motherboard bus speed is very important. 
You'll also get better performance with an SSD as your main system drive also, not just for your sample drives. 

Separate drives for operating system, sample libraries, and audio and video. 

I recommend Windows 7 Pro , not Windows 10 Pro. You'll want to optimize Windows anyway, so all the bells and whistles that come with Windows isn't really the thing.

I recommend checking out the VisionDaw guys that builds PC's for a lot of the Hollywood composers. They built mine and did a great job.


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## JohnG (Nov 29, 2016)

waveheavy said:


> I recommend Windows 7 Pro , not Windows 10 Pro



I would be worried that you'd run into compatibility and other issues sooner rather than later. Not so sure about that recommendation.

Besides, I have four Windows 10 PCs running pretty low on the CPU -- low single digits when idle.


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## rgames (Nov 29, 2016)

The only thing I can think of that matters less than memory speed/latency is the color of the case you use


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## Lawson. (Nov 29, 2016)

manuhz said:


> Hi again and many thaks for the comments. Here are the componets I've listed:
> 
> CPU: Intel i7 6800K
> Motherboard: Asus X99-A II
> ...



I would get 4 500GB EVOs or 2 1TB EVOs instead of a single 2TB drive. The more open bandwidth you have, the better.


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## woodslanding (Nov 30, 2016)

chimuelo said:


> Problems with NVMe M.2s are rarely mentioned because theyre so fast.
> On Z97s direct access to the CPU is better than the Z170 PCH stop over.



I've been thinking of a 6700k build for my studio computer.... but should I just put another 5775c build together instead? Benchmarks are the same for these 2 cpus. I thought the new m.2 'ultra' feature ran direct to the cpu??

I guess I'd miss Thunderbolt and USB-c.... what else?? Maybe there are pcie cards for that?

People here are saying to avoid z170 builds, but over at gearslutz they seem to be having issues with x99s..... 

Still haven't decided whether I would need the power of a 6800k. Not sure where the bottlenecks are. Downsides: graphics card and larger cooling unit required... I guess it doesn't need to be small, but I hate to waste space!

Can you realistically put a 6800k in a 2u rack, and have it be quiet? I'm thinking not....

Not planning to do full orchestration.... and yet I did write two pieces for orchestra last year for which I have not had decent performances, so now I'm thinking.


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## chimuelo (Nov 30, 2016)

Sure try a quiet AIO CPU only cooler for the i7 6000 series.
Coolermaster really benches low heat for gamers.
You can angle the fan to sit short/ horizontal for a 2U or vertical for a 3U/4U.
Temps at 4.6 were 39C. Db levels also seemed extremely low but I only believe things I see.
But what a great mission specific design.


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## woodslanding (Nov 30, 2016)

Doesn't look like it would fit in 2U. What is the clearance inside a 2U case? They list compatibility with dozens of cases, but no info on racks.


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## URL (Dec 1, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Besides, I have four Windows 10 PCs running pretty low on the CPU -- low single digits when idle.


OT...
If I may ask you John, do have your 4 Pc slaves in the same room as your DAW or do you have a separate room for your PC slaves, if, how do you combine them visually, to your DAW screens or separate screens?


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## J-M (Dec 1, 2016)

chimuelo said:


> AMD Zen looks to shake things up at CES 2017 in Vegas.
> At least let them force Intel to drop prices via competition.



Yep, I'm always on a tight budget so I'm pretty curious how things turn out when they release Zen.


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## chimuelo (Dec 1, 2016)

The CPU has out performed Xeons at the same clock speeds.
The difference is a 3.2 Zen can be overclocked to 4GHz.
Xeons cannot.
So fingers crossed on the chipsets.


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## JohnG (Dec 1, 2016)

URL said:


> do have your 4 Pc slaves in the same room as your DAW or do you have a separate room for your PC slaves, if, how do you combine them visually, to your DAW screens or separate screens?



They are in a separate room. I use an old KVR switch for the screens. It's so old, it emits steam when operating.


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## chimuelo (Dec 1, 2016)

woodslanding said:


> Doesn't look like it would fit in 2U. What is the clearance inside a 2U case? They list compatibility with dozens of cases, but no info on racks.



3.5" / 5.35" / 7" on a 4U.

I'm already looking at an MSI B350 for Zen.
Norco 4U that's only 15" deep.
SSDs are hot swapped from the front side Drive Bay.
As is USB Type C.


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## manuhz (Dec 1, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> The I7 6800k might not be powerful enough. If you really load up close to 128gb worth of samples, have several dozen eq's, then reverbs, compressors, etc. You will quickly run out of juice. If you plan to go with a one-machine setup, why not get more power (6850 or 6900)?



Do you think the 6850k make a big performance difference compared to the 6800k?


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## jamwerks (Dec 1, 2016)

manuhz said:


> Do you think the 6850k make a big performance difference compared to the 6800k?


The 6850K is more powerful, and can also (I think?) access more pcie lanes. It's hard to calculate how much power one will need 3-5 years from now. It also depends on how many plugs you'll always want to have running. You may (for example) really want a new reverb that sounds great but eats cpu.

For a single machine setup, with that much ram, personally I'd go for the 6900k. In the long run, that might even cost you less money than spending less now...


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## URL (Dec 1, 2016)

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html


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## peksi (Dec 5, 2016)

I decided to wait it out until Amd Zen is out. If it really can perform with the price tag we've seen it will radically reduce Intel pricing and who knows even be better than Intels.


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## tack (Dec 5, 2016)

URL said:


> https://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html


I think this benchmark will be misleading for our purposes. If you want to build a video rendering farm, ok, but it's not showing single core performance, which is an important consideration for DAWs as our first bottleneck is usually RT performance.


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## woodslanding (Dec 6, 2016)

I'm looking at a virtually identical build...same processor and mobo. but to be clear--even though the 6700k outperforms the 6800k on a single-core basis, the extra 2 cores do end up more than making up for it, right?

Anybody know what those AMD chips are going to cost? Wondering if I should scrape through for another 6 months and wait on those.....


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## Symfoniq (Dec 6, 2016)

woodslanding said:


> I'm looking at a virtually identical build...same processor and mobo. but to be clear--even though the 6700k outperforms the 6800k on a single-core basis, the extra 2 cores do end up more than making up for it, right?
> 
> Anybody know what those AMD chips are going to cost? Wondering if I should scrape through for another 6 months and wait on those.....



Whether two cores make up for lower clock speed depends on how heavily your workload is threaded. In most DAWs running lots of instruments and FX, you will benefit from the extra cores.

Now for an opinion: Right now is a really bad time to purchase a new CPU. The Kaby Lake refresh of Intel's i7 desktop processors is looking pretty underwhelming based on the latest benchmarks. AMD's 8-core Zen processors are right around the corner. If you can wait two or three months, I would.


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## woodslanding (Dec 6, 2016)

hmmmm. I will think seriously about this....


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## Trombking (Dec 13, 2016)

Hey,
I want do buy a new master daw computer and there are two cpu options for me. Either a i5 6600k (3,5 GHz, 4 Ghz Turbo, oc 4,5 GHz possible) with watercooling which it is possible to overclock and on the other hand an i7 6700(3,4 GHz, 4 Ghz turbo) which can't be overclocked but has hyperthreading. Can't buy an i7 6700K because my budget doesn't allow a 100$ more. I run Cubase 8.5 pro with many vst instruments(about 100-120 tracks) on an old Sandy Bridge i7 with a turbo up to 3,7 Ghz and 32 Gb of ram. What is more important. The option to overclock to 4,5GHz with the i5 or to have the hyperthreading feature on the i7 which has a slower base speed and doesn't have the overclocking feature?


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## Fab (Dec 26, 2016)

Trombking said:


> Hey,
> I want do buy a new master daw computer and there are two cpu options for me. Either a i5 6600k (3,5 GHz, 4 Ghz Turbo, oc 4,5 GHz possible) with watercooling which it is possible to overclock and on the other hand an i7 6700(3,4 GHz, 4 Ghz turbo) which can't be overclocked but has hyperthreading. Can't buy an i7 6700K because my budget doesn't allow a 100$ more. I run Cubase 8.5 pro with many vst instruments(about 100-120 tracks) on an old Sandy Bridge i7 with a turbo up to 3,7 Ghz and 32 Gb of ram. What is more important. The option to overclock to 4,5GHz with the i5 or to have the hyperthreading feature on the i7 which has a slower base speed and doesn't have the overclocking feature?



lol yeah...thats what you need > watercooling, then youll finally be able to compose!

But no, I have heard watercooling can be quite noisy and its more expensive overall. Based on what I've read it would better to just go for big quiet fans, but you might be in a different room?

Also i7 is better than i5 for what we use usually....I think.


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## rgames (Dec 26, 2016)

Trombking said:


> Hey,
> I want do buy a new master daw computer and there are two cpu options for me. Either a i5 6600k (3,5 GHz, 4 Ghz Turbo, oc 4,5 GHz possible) with watercooling which it is possible to overclock and on the other hand an i7 6700(3,4 GHz, 4 Ghz turbo) which can't be overclocked but has hyperthreading. Can't buy an i7 6700K because my budget doesn't allow a 100$ more. I run Cubase 8.5 pro with many vst instruments(about 100-120 tracks) on an old Sandy Bridge i7 with a turbo up to 3,7 Ghz and 32 Gb of ram. What is more important. The option to overclock to 4,5GHz with the i5 or to have the hyperthreading feature on the i7 which has a slower base speed and doesn't have the overclocking feature?


I'd say the 6700 is the better choice for a master daw. Hyperthreading can help a bunch and the difference between 4.0 GHz and 4.5 GHz is not that much. I've found a big dropoff between, say, 4.4 GHz and 3.0 GHz but not much between 4.4 GHz and 4.0 GHz.

Yeah, ditch the watercooling and get one of those large $30 fans. I've used the CoolerMaster Hyper 212 EVO on a couple of slave builds and it's fine. That'll save you enough to spend the extra cash on the 6700k.

rgames


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 26, 2016)

JohnG said:


> I would be worried that you'd run into compatibility and other issues sooner rather than later. Not so sure about that recommendation.
> 
> Besides, I have four Windows 10 PCs running pretty low on the CPU -- low single digits when idle.


I would agree with this. Interesting that the folks over at Visiondaw ONLY have W7 as an option (not W10)???


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## JohnG (Dec 26, 2016)

Rob Elliott said:


> the folks over at Visiondaw ONLY have W7 as an option (not W10)???



wow -- still? I'm surprised.


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 26, 2016)

JohnG said:


> wow -- still? I'm surprised.


 I am getting ready on pulling the trigger for my builder to replace my oldest slave. He suggests FOR SURE to go with W10 for reasons you have stated. This guy is SUPER conservative (which I like) - cutting edge just NOT bleeding edge.


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## JohnG (Dec 26, 2016)

@Rob Elliott That makes sense to me. Maybe VisionDAW haven't updated their site? Weird.

I have found W10 ok so far, but I don't have those computers connected much to the internet -- only to download software libraries occasionally.


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## rgames (Dec 26, 2016)

The problem I've had with W10 is that it'll change things without letting you know. None relate to performance, just preferences like which program is linked to what kind of document. Performance-wise I've not noticed any real difference between 7 and 10.

The anniversary edition did add the memory compression thing which had me a little worried but so far it seems OK (you can disable it). The weird thing is that it appeared on one of my slaves and my master but not my other slave. Maybe that slave didn't get the updated pushed to it...

rgames


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## JohnG (Dec 26, 2016)

@rgames We all agree that the unannounced updates remain the problem. If it's going to be connected to the internet all the time it's annoying, because, as you imply in your note, one has to keep checking to make sure everything is ok.

Maybe it's no big deal to keep using Windows 7 for a while -- it's just whether it will work with, say, the next version of Omnisphere or PLAY or Kontakt. @Rob Elliott I just looked it up and a couple of sites said this:

_Microsoft doesn't plan to stop fixing security problems in Windows 7 until extended support ends. That's January 14, 2020--five years and a day from the end of mainstream support. PC World http://www.pcworld.com/article/2462...s-windows-7-mainstream-support-next-year.html_

So that is a pretty long time for security at least.


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 26, 2016)

JohnG said:


> @rgames We all agree that the unannounced updates remain the problem. If it's going to be connected to the internet all the time it's annoying, because, as you imply in your note, one has to keep checking to make sure everything is ok.
> 
> Maybe it's no big deal to keep using Windows 7 for a while -- it's just whether it will work with, say, the next version of Omnisphere or PLAY or Kontakt. @Rob Elliott I just looked it up and a couple of sites said this:
> 
> ...


Good news but I am with you. A developer (that day AFTER I set up the new slave on W7) comes out with some new fangled whatever that can only be run on W10.


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## John57 (Dec 26, 2016)

Instead of the CoolerMaster Hyper 212 EVO which I replaced with the Noctua D-Type Premium CPU Cooler, NF-A15 PWM Fans, Retail Cooling NH-D15S which has better cooling power. Even at 50% CPU you can run at high temps for the CPU which can case throttling. Use the largest fans that you can put on. Not the smaller fans that run at higher speeds. Use computer cases that have more sound proofing in them. I change the OS power setting so that none of the CPU cores are parked. I disable all sleep states in BIOS. I usually do not overclock because I many years of experience told me that while overclocking is good for games are never as stable at stock speeds for production apps. I do however have the CPU to run full Turbo all the time. All my computer and Audio equipment are run on a central isolation AC transformer to reduce noise that can be on the analog signals. I have a strong USB3 optical network for my primary USB devices used for DAW work so that I do not get ground loops. You need good real time performance not batch or packets processing. Have good ASIO drivers for the hardware. Have good quality monitors with flat frequency response that that you can mix sounds well even on other users systems that do have a bit different frequency response. 

You might all have seen this.


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## ZeroZero (Dec 27, 2016)

Although I am not an overclocker, Asus Motherboards come with an Auto overclocking thingy - I gained significantly with this getting about 20% more zippyness. I also run the coolermaster here - it works well for me.


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## willf_music (Dec 27, 2016)

Hey so although I will make a video on this in the future... I think I see this question enough just to make a big post to replay to you.

So when building a workstation I suggest investing in two things
1) PSU
2) Motherboard

Get a cheap PSU and a £4000 system will be gone in the next thunderstorm. Get a ill positioned Motherboard and you will have compatibility issue for days. Also if it is your first build I suggest getting a decent sized case.

I also don't know how much RAM you need. 64GB can also get you quite far but maybe you need 128GB. X99, the only platform running DDR4 for normal workstations, is pricey but you can always upgrade for that vast amount of RAM later on. Get 64GB now and 128GB Later. As far as performance goes, there is not really much of a difference between DDR3 and DDR4 but DDR4 simply is a smaller circuit so you can get 4x the memory in the same surface area. So ya if you are going to a build a system for professional purposes make a DDR4 system.


I don't know where you are from so I am just going to link you to Newegg in the USA. Here is a suggested build if you have REALLY high demands:

*PSU:* CORSAIR RMx Series RM750X
*MOBO:* ASUS X99-E WS
*CPU:* Intel Core i7-5820K
*RAM:* G.SKILL Ripjaws 4 Series 128GB (8 x 16GB)
*CPU Cooler:* Noctua NH-U9S

*Mass Storage* : WD Blue 1TB [use this for your projects and such. If you run 2x then run them in RAID1 to make sure you have a copy in case 1 drive fails. You should still be running an external backup]
*Samples Storage*: SAMSUNG 850 EVO 2.5" 500GB [use as many as you need to hold your sample libraries. some programs can be installed here. there are more expensive SSDs and NVME SSDs but really that is a long conversation and I would say don't spend your money there yet]
*Boot Drive*: SAMSUNG 850 EVO 2.5" 250GB [Keep the OS and your programs on here]
*GPU*: EVGA GeForce GT 740 [You can get a better GPU if you need to work on Video Game development or you are driving really high resolution footage. However, this is fine for almost everything you could need. you need a GPU if you run a Xeon or server processor but feel free if you want to just run the on board graphics on the CPU right now]
As a long time system builder please let me say a few things. You can get better CPU coolers that are bigger and therefore the system will run quieter. However, I do not know what your needs are. Truth be told I think this is overkill unless you have demands for very high performance. But in that case there is a lot of optimisation you could still do. Also you can get larger PSUs if you develop a very very large system running RAID cards, GPUs, Add in cards and lots of mechanical storage. (But this PSU is fine for most tasks)

Last thing I would like to say is that I did not put a CASE. Remember to check your case's dimensions so that you know that the CPU Cooler will fit inside and that the case closes. Also some CPU Coolers can interfere with the RAM slots if your RAM is too tall.

Anywho to answer your question on RAM. RAM timings (CAS latency) and the actual operating speed will not matter to us. Long explanation but I really don't want to write it out here. You will notice that with RAM the CAS and operational frequencies tend to trade off anyways so performance tends to be a wash in real-time applications. There is a sweet spot that will move on to better metrics as DDR4 becomes more common place. But for now, just get some RAM that has the capacity you need and is compatible with your MOBO and is at a price you are willing to pay.

Hope this helps.


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## ZeroZero (Dec 27, 2016)

I would definitely go with an X99 mobo, also some motherboards do not support larger memory sticks - the Asus boards used to only do this after as bios update. If you get an X99 then you must have DDR4. DDR3 is gone.
My 250 Samsung 830 evo gig operating system drive run out of space (I have no samples on this drive, or videos etc, just programs). I replaced it with a Samsung 850 pro - this was much faster. SSDs slow down when they reach capacity, when writing, also Windows does not like to live on a near full drive. I say go 500 gig.
I would suggest considering a fanless GPU if you need to live record in the same room.
Some people recommend a separate drive for writing your DAW's project files. The logic being that your DAW can read from your sample drive and write to your project drive, whilst existing on the operating drive simultaneously. The project drive can be tiny.


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