# How do I make this solo piano piece better in terms of reverb/mixing/mastering



## Jesse Tikka (Aug 4, 2018)

So I've been playing around with the mixing of this piece today. I think it sounds all right now, but I'm sure it could be better.

How do you guys process your pianos?

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/solopiano-mp3.14676/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/solopiano2-mp3.14692/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## MaxOctane (Aug 4, 2018)

Jesse Tikka said:


> So I've been playing around with the mixing of this piece today. I think it sounds all right now, but I'm sure it could be better.
> 
> How do you guys process your pianos?
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/solopiano-mp3.14676/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Can you post what you're using here? Instrument and effects.


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## Jesse Tikka (Aug 4, 2018)

MaxOctane said:


> Can you post what you're using here? Instrument and effects.


Oh yeah, of course. Pianoteq 6 Steinway D prelude with the output set as stereophonic. QL Spaces LA Piano hall as the reverb.


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## R. Soul (Aug 4, 2018)

Mixing is mostly referred to when you have to get a range of instruments to fit together in a mix.
This can be problematic when for example a bass and kick drum clashes frequency wise.

So, when a piano is by itself there's isn't much to mix. Of course, you can brighten it or add some warmth in the low end, but it's more of a personal taste choice, as opposed to getting kick and bass to sit together.

Another thing - it's almost impossible to tell what can be improved on mastering unless the mastering has been done so heavily that it distorts or pumps the mix - which is certainly not the case here. I doubt anyone can hear what's been done here in terms of mastering, as when the whole track is just one piano, mastering essentially becomes mixing.

So if I was comment regarding mixing, it would be more about the tone of Pianoteq which can sound a bit thin compared to some sampled pianos.
Of course, you could have a larger reverb, but again, it's a matter of taste really.


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## Jesse Tikka (Aug 4, 2018)

R. Soul said:


> Mixing is mostly referred to when you have to get a range of instruments to fit together in a mix.
> This can be problematic when for example a bass and kick drum clashes frequency wise.
> 
> So, when a piano is by itself there's isn't much to mix. Of course, you can brighten it or add some warmth in the low end, but it's more of a personal taste choice, as opposed to getting kick and bass to sit together.
> ...


Good points. I guess I was just looking for ways to "enhance" piano sounds in different ways. But yeah, my best bet would probably be to work more with the composition itself.


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## R. Soul (Aug 4, 2018)

Honestly, it sounds fine to me.
But I'm hardly an expert on solo piano, so maybe others can give better pointers in terms of enhancing the piano.


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## puremusic (Aug 4, 2018)

Very nice little piece, this style of piano music is some of my favorite kind of music.


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## Jesse Tikka (Aug 4, 2018)

puremusic said:


> Very nice little piece, this style of piano music is some of my favorite kind of music.


Much appreciated! I love modern soundtrack type piano music.


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## NoamL (Aug 4, 2018)

The piano has an uncomfortable amount of high mids, giving a crunchy but thin quality to the sound. The notes around C3-C4 when played loudly even sound a little overdriven or clipped. Are you sure your gain staging is OK going into and out of Spaces?

I tried doing multiband compression between 750-1.6k and it seemed to work better than static EQ, because the problem increases when you're playing louder. The compressor has negative gain makeup, i.e. it is pulling those frequencies down when they get excessive while leaving the frequency curve flat when the piano is playing softly. The amount of reduction is up to you.

I'd also look for a _slightly_ more distant reverb or turn up the wet/dry ratio.


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## re-peat (Aug 4, 2018)

R. Soul said:


> (...) So, when a piano is by itself there's isn't much to mix.(...)



Can’t agree wit that. Mixing a solo piano track — or what has to sound as if it were a solo piano track — is often incredibly difficult, at least as difficult as mixing a band or orchestral track, particularly if you’re working with a virtual piano, all specimens of which, when exposed, are prone to show their many weaknesses much more than their rare qualities.
It requires your complete attention regarding things like weight of the sound (having it consistent across all dynamic layers), timbral sculpting, stereo imaging, the inevitable weak-sounding note(s), cumulating frequency clusters (an unpleasant phenomenon in nearly all virtual pianos), convincing dynamic behaviour, finding a virtual space that’s sympathetic to both the instrument and the music, … and several more considerations that just can be ignored.




R. Soul said:


> (...) I doubt anyone can hear what's been done here in terms of mastering (...).



Don’t agree with this either. Listening to this track for example, I would think it impossible *not* to notice that the dynamics of the audio don’t sound quite right. The middle section, where the piano part is denser and happening in a higher dynamic range, sounds compressed — quite heavily compressed in fact, to my ears — resulting in evened-out levels that are quite unrealistic. To my ears anyway.
Can’t tell whether it is Pianoteq’s built-in compressor or some plug-in in the audio chain that’s causing this dynamic flatness, but whatever it is, I would definitely suggest to make sure its presence is a lot more subtle than it currently is.

A good trick, in my experience, is to mix occasionally at really low levels. I mean: really *very* low levels. For some reason, that brings out any dynamic inconsistencies and/or other flaws in a mix that much clearer, I find.

I also often uses several instances of the same instrument in order to have more control over specific problem areas in a virtual piano. (Not a rarity for me to use up to five instances of the same piano.) With the added bonus that I can place the left hand range ever so slightly further away from the listener than the right hand. (Anything to increase the illusion of depth in a recording of a virtual instrument in a virtual space, is always welcome, in my opinion.)

In this case, I would definitely load up at least one more instance of the Pianoteq instrument to take care of the somewhat problematic midrange of the piano: the tone there is borderline congested and some careful EQ’ing might open things up a little. (You also might want to consider fractionally lowering the Impedance-parameter as well as raising the ‘Direct sound duration’ of the notes in the midrange — only possible if you have the Pro version of Pianoteq — for a less dense sound.)

For my taste, the chosen space in your recording sounds perfectly OK.

_


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## Jesse Tikka (Aug 5, 2018)

NoamL said:


> The piano has an uncomfortable amount of high mids, giving a crunchy but thin quality to the sound. The notes around C3-C4 when played loudly even sound a little overdriven or clipped. Are you sure your gain staging is OK going into and out of Spaces?
> 
> I tried doing multiband compression between 750-1.6k and it seemed to work better than static EQ, because the problem increases when you're playing louder. The compressor has negative gain makeup, i.e. it is pulling those frequencies down when they get excessive while leaving the frequency curve flat when the piano is playing softly. The amount of reduction is up to you.
> 
> I'd also look for a _slightly_ more distant reverb or turn up the wet/dry ratio.


You're right, it seems I did at some point put a compressor in there and forgot about it. I've now removed some of the EQ that was boosting the high ranges, removed the compression, turned up the wet/dry ratio of the reverb, and reduced the effect of the volume automation that I used to balance the soft parts with the louder parts.

Does this sound better?



re-peat said:


> Can’t agree wit that. Mixing a solo piano track — or what has to sound as if it were a solo piano track — is often incredibly difficult, at least as difficult as mixing a band or orchestral track, particularly if you’re working with a virtual piano, all specimens of which, when exposed, are prone to show their many weaknesses much more than their rare qualities.
> It requires your complete attention regarding things like weight of the sound (having it consistent across all dynamic layers), timbral sculpting, stereo imaging, the inevitable weak-sounding note(s), cumulating frequency clusters (an unpleasant phenomenon in nearly all virtual pianos), convincing dynamic behaviour, finding a virtual space that’s sympathetic to both the instrument and the music, … and several more considerations that just can be ignored.
> 
> 
> ...


Good catch with the compression! I did in fact have one in there that I had forgotten about...
Anyway, right now I have 2 instances of Pianoteq where I've separated the lows from the rest. I'll try to see if I can work with the mids more. All though I did, as mentioned above, take out some of the default EQ that was present in the piano preset, boosting the high-mids and highs.

But yeah, I'm using the stage version of pianoteq, so no can do.

Thanks!


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## Jesse Tikka (Aug 5, 2018)

Okay here's the file.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/solopiano2-mp3.14684/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## NoamL (Aug 5, 2018)

Much better. You didn't need any processing!


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## CGR (Aug 5, 2018)

Jesse Tikka said:


> Okay here's the file.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/solopiano2-mp3.14684/][/AUDIOPLUS]


I enjoyed your playing. Soundwise, it does has that artificial quality to it, but as pointed out above, the mid-range of some Pianoteq instruments can sound quite congested and flat (to my ears the Steinway D in particular) which is difficult to "engineer out". I'd be interested to hear this piece played back on the more recent models such as the Steingraeber and the Grotrian Steinweg, which sound more 'alive' to my ears overall.

Here's an example of a piano solo played in a similar style worth listening to as a reference for how a real piano sounds and responds in a large natural space. A modern French Pleyel grand I believe:


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## Grim_Universe (Aug 5, 2018)

1) Process your left and right hands separately.
2) Use really extreme exciter settings, but mix it not for 100% with your main track, but for 20% or 30%. You want to add some tube distortion on top of your track.
3) Bump low frequencies.
4) Compress mid and high mid frequencies. I compressed 300-1400 and 1400-4k range for your track.
5) Use extreme compression to add some bite and attack to your track, but mix it for 20% or 30% aswell. I suggest you to compress mids and highs separately.
You can hear the new version here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jhdrpoplz9lcb0i/probably.wav?dl=0
If you'll need help with mixing in the future, PM me.


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## Jesse Tikka (Aug 5, 2018)

Grim_Universe said:


> 1) Process your left and right hands separately.
> 2) Use really extreme exciter settings, but mix it not for 100% with your main track, but for 20% or 30%. You want to add some tube distortion on top of your track.
> 3) Bump low frequencies.
> 4) Compress mid and high mid frequencies. I compressed 300-1400 and 1400-4k range for your track.
> ...


Great advice, sounds tight! Didn't even know that there was such a thing as an exciter. Any good free or cheap ones out there that you'd know of?

I'll see what I can do with your advice, thanks!


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