# Community Brass Programming Exercise - Olympic Fanfare



## ALittleNightMusic (Nov 30, 2021)

Now that our gluttonous Black Friday purchasing has come to a close, it is time to use what we've bought. I thought it might be interesting to try our hands at programming a short snippet of a piece, starting from the same point (same MIDI notes) - but then seeing where each of us takes it in terms of library used, tempo adjustments, MIDI tweaking, CC programming, etc. It would be equally nice to stick to a single library or also to see what combinations can provide. My hope is this can be a nice way to share some programming / mixing tips with the community (especially from the experts here) so that we can all maximize what we've purchased - a selfish cause since I am far from a talented programmer or mixer.

To kick it off, I thought the opening to John Williams' Olympic Fanfare and Theme would be interesting to tackle.

I'm sharing both a snippet of the actual recording, the MIDI file as copied directly from the concert score for the brass parts, and my take on it using *Berlin Brass* (the ensemble patches in SINE). As I said, I'm not all that good at this, but it provides me an opportunity to really dig into the library (and the piece). For example, I am finding it somewhat hard to control the timbre and dynamics across articulations (especially shorts when using the velocity dynamics control) in SINE. But on the other hand, the repetitions articulation (with 2x tempo set in SINE) gives me the quadruple 32nd notes that I need with relative ease.

Original BPM is 88.

Anyway, hopefully a few of you decide to take part and share your mockups and any tips / wisdom you learn.

Cheers.


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## dhmusic (Nov 30, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Now that our gluttonous Black Friday purchasing has come to a close, it is time to use what we've bought. I thought it might be interesting to try our hands at programming a short snippet of a piece, starting from the same point (same MIDI notes) - but then seeing where each of us takes it in terms of library used, tempo adjustments, MIDI tweaking, CC programming, etc. It would be equally nice to stick to a single library or also to see what combinations can provide. My hope is this can be a nice way to share some programming / mixing tips with the community (especially from the experts here) so that we can all maximize what we've purchased - a selfish cause since I am far from a talented programmer or mixer.
> 
> To kick it off, I thought the opening to John Williams' Olympic Fanfare and Theme would be interesting to tackle.
> 
> ...


Your version sounds great! Cool idea.


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## FrozenIcicle (Nov 30, 2021)

subscribing to this. Wish I had more time to participate but interested to hear the results @NoamL probably has already mocked this up lol


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## shawnsingh (Nov 30, 2021)

If I ever get my music studio back up and running, I'll do infinite brass. But I have no ideas when that will be, probably not for another few weeks at least.

For the Berlin version, I think the second to last note in the first two phases would be better as a short portato, sounds to me like it uses sustain, but the note is short enough that the sustain release sample collides with the shape of the sustain's attack, which then sounds unrealistic.

Similarly for the thematic trumpet part, the fast tounging notes (a - g - f), I think the first two notes there (a - g) should use staccatissimo... What articulation does it use in your version, they don't seem as crisp as I think Berlin is capable of.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Nov 30, 2021)

shawnsingh said:


> If I ever get my music studio back up and running, I'll do infinite brass. But I have no ideas when that will be, probably not for another few weeks at least.
> 
> For the Berlin version, I think the second to last note in the first two phases would be better as a short portato, sounds to me like it uses sustain, but the note is short enough that the sustain release sample collides with the shape of the sustain's attack, which then sounds unrealistic.
> 
> Similarly for the thematic trumpet part, the fast tounging notes (a - g - f), I think the first two notes there (a - g) should use staccatissimo... What articulation does it use in your version, they don't seem as crisp as I think Berlin is capable of.


I posted a slightly updated version in the original post. I didn't like some of the opening programming in hindsight. Unfortunately, Berlin Brass doesn't come with a portato articulation - the marcatos can be used as a substitute to a certain extent but never get particularly warm (same with the staccatos).

Which section do you mean by the trumpet part (the trumpet never plays a - g - f)? If you are referring to the fast 32nd notes in the first section, I'm using the Repetition 1/16th continuous articulation in SINE. For the second section, I'm using staccatos / staccatissimos mostly. For the horns in the second section, I had quite a hard time because Berlin Brass doesn't seem to have a tight enough, low dynamic (warm) short note that fits well in between the longer eighth notes.

Looking forward to your Infinite Brass version. I think @Jonathan Moray could also whip up a great sounding rendition with that library.

I will try to post a version with Modern Scoring Brass later this week.


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 1, 2021)

Thank you @ALittleNightMusic for putting this up, as it is the first "challenge" I enter here and the first time I could mock-up an existing composition.

View attachment Olympic fanfare mock-up master.mp3


This was made with VSL Dimension Brass. I split up your MIDI file in individual players for the trumpets and left the rest as an ensemble patch (4 horns, 4 trombones, 4 tuba's). I split the trombone part and added a bass trombone for the lowest part. Furthermore, I added the Audio modeling SWAM trumpet to add more bite, sizzle and a bit vibrato at the end to support the 1rst trumpet. Dimension Brass comes with repetition articulations which can ben synched with time stretch to fit the tempo of the piece. I used those for the 4 note repetitions in the beginning. This gives it a more human feel versus machinegun.

It's still a rough mix, but hope you guys like it. Still not very happy with the trumpets. The first part needs to have more accent on the notes, but I haven't found the right combination of articulations and settings yet. That's next up for this mock-up.

Hope you'll enjoy.

EDIT: updated audio (new mix and master)


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 1, 2021)

I updated the previous post with a new mix and master. The horns were a bit too soft and the master was just plain ugly. This one's much better.


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## dhmusic (Dec 1, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> I updated the previous post with a new mix and master. The horns were a bit too soft and the master was just plain ugly. This ones much better.


I like the darker character in your version. Those trumpets are really tough because we're all so familiar with them. It feels like it should be easy but it really isn't


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 1, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> Those trumpets are really tough because we're all so familiar with them. It feels like it should be easy but it really isn't


I agree. I find that developers struggle with trumpets, probably due to the nature of the sound getting more synth- or laserlike when processed. The VSL trumpets are nice because they have the classical sound and have plenty of articulations. They do tend to not exaggerate with the articulations, which makes for a bit "tame" fp, sfz and shorts. They miss bite until you chose velocity >120 and then it's too loud. That's why I mixed the SWAM trumpet in. That has too much grit, but properly mixed together it works.


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## dhmusic (Dec 1, 2021)

Hiiiiii

Here's my version. It's pretty modern sounding compared to the reference with a fairly intense mix. Using Trumpets 1 2 3 and a3 from Berlin Brass. Metropolis Ark 4 is on Horn duty with a couple of the mixed ensembles. The low brass is BBR Tuba and JXL Bass Trombones. I didn't do the two decelerandos at the beginning (whoops) and it's quite aggressive overall but I think I kinda like it

Hope you do too 

Feel free to share your thoughts either way


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 1, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> Hiiiiii
> 
> Here's my version. It's pretty modern sounding compared to the reference with a fairly intense mix. Using Trumpets 1 2 3 and a3 from Berlin Brass. Metropolis Ark 4 is on Horn duty with a couple of the mixed ensembles. The low brass is BBR Tuba and JXL Bass Trombones. I didn't do the two decelerandos at the beginning (whoops) and it's quite aggressive overall but I think I kinda like it
> 
> ...



That is really intense! There is a lot of room and reverb which I think washes the details away a bit. It certainly has more character than mine. I think that if we mixed my rather dry version and yours, the ambience would be golden!

(I didn't do the decelerando's either 🤫)


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## Rob (Dec 1, 2021)

Thank you ALittleNightMusic for the thread, fun and useful... here's a try with Wallander's Wivi:


View attachment BrassTest-Wivi.mp3


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## dhmusic (Dec 1, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> That is really intense! There is a lot of room and reverb which I think washes the details away a bit. It certainly has more character than mine. I think that if we mixed my rather dry version and yours, the ambience would be golden!
> 
> (I didn't do the decelerando's either 🤫)


I updated the track, should be a lot drier now.

I wouldn't say "more" character, just different character. Mine is a total edgelord mix lmao


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## dhmusic (Dec 1, 2021)

Rob said:


> Thank you ALittleNightMusic for the thread, fun and useful... here's a try with Wallander's Wivi:
> 
> 
> View attachment BrassTest-Wivi.mp3


This sounds awesome. I'm not familiar with the WIVI stuff but it seems pretty flexible. Nice job!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 1, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Thank you @ALittleNightMusic for putting this up, as it is the first "challenge" I enter here and the first time I could mock-up an existing composition.
> 
> View attachment Olympic fanfare mock-up master.mp3
> 
> ...


Thanks for participating! Not a lot of VSL Dimension Brass demos around here, so great to see that. They are recorded in the silent stage right? Did you add reverb to this? To me ear, you could probably do with a bit more if it suited your taste. I think your panning of the horns and trumpets is much better than my version - you can really hear the horn syncopation. I just left Berlin Brass as it came out of the box.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 1, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> Hiiiiii
> 
> Here's my version. It's pretty modern sounding compared to the reference with a fairly intense mix. Using Trumpets 1 2 3 and a3 from Berlin Brass. Metropolis Ark 4 is on Horn duty with a couple of the mixed ensembles. The low brass is BBR Tuba and JXL Bass Trombones. I didn't do the two decelerandos at the beginning (whoops) and it's quite aggressive overall but I think I kinda like it
> 
> ...



EPIC!  It is clipping for me a bit - not sure if you used a limiter? Are you using the Kontakt version of Berlin Brass with the new FF layer (sounded like it!)? What did you find worked best for the fast 32nd note repetitions?

Thanks for participating!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 1, 2021)

Rob said:


> Thank you ALittleNightMusic for the thread, fun and useful... here's a try with Wallander's Wivi:
> 
> 
> View attachment BrassTest-Wivi.mp3


I too hadn't heard of these, but I like the tightness of the shorts here (probably the tightest of the bunch so far!) and then warm mellow tone seems to match the recording the best. Did you do anything special for mixing? How did you find programming this particular instrument? Thanks for sharing!


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## handz (Dec 1, 2021)

Interesting thread. I love this piece

I hear same problem with all mockups so far - once the fast phrasing passage starts it totally lacks the bite and definiton, aren’t you all using too long articulations? Oh and VSL again is absolute loser to me soundwise, it just don’t sound well 🥲


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## Tralen (Dec 1, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I too hadn't heard of these, but I like the tightness of the shorts here (probably the tightest of the bunch so far!) and then warm mellow tone seems to match the recording the best. Did you do anything special for mixing? How did you find programming this particular instrument? Thanks for sharing!


They are sadly discontinued. Wallander is the man behind Note Performer.


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## dhmusic (Dec 1, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> EPIC!  It is clipping for me a bit - not sure if you used a limiter? Are you using the Kontakt version of Berlin Brass with the new FF layer (sounded like it!)? What did you find worked best for the fast 32nd note repetitions?
> 
> Thanks for participating!


I bet it's the mp3 headroom, mine isn't hitting red. 

It's just the kontakt version actually. I used the repetitions patch for those fast passages. Metropolis Ark IV has a different kind of repetition that's just a double, triple, or quad. I used that too for the horn parts.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 1, 2021)

handz said:


> Interesting thread. I love this piece
> 
> I hear same problem with all mockups so far - once the fast phrasing passage starts it totally lacks the bite and definiton, aren’t you all using too long articulations? Oh and VSL again is absolute loser to me soundwise, it just don’t sound well 🥲


For the Berlin Brass version I posted, I was using staccato / staccatissimo articulations for the second half. But SINE Berlin Brass doesn't seem to truncate the note based on the note length - which other libraries do I believe.

Anyway, please share your version - will be interesting to see how you solve this for the second half and with which library.


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## dhmusic (Dec 1, 2021)

handz said:


> Interesting thread. I love this piece
> 
> I hear same problem with all mockups so far - once the fast phrasing passage starts it totally lacks the bite and definiton, aren’t you all using too long articulations? Oh and VSL again is absolute loser to me soundwise, it just don’t sound well 🥲


Your turn, handz _Zimmer_


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 1, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> I bet it's the mp3 headroom, mine isn't hitting red.
> 
> It's just the kontakt version actually. I used the repetitions patch for those fast passages. Metropolis Ark IV has a different kind of repetition that's just a double, triple, or quad. I used that too for the horn parts.


Awesome - the Kontakt trumpets certainly have a punch despite not having that new FF layer. Probably a lot more editing flexibility too. I used the same repetition patches in SINE.


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## dhmusic (Dec 1, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Awesome - the Kontakt trumpets certainly have a punch despite not having that new FF layer. Probably a lot more editing flexibility too. I used the same repetition patches in SINE.


The new layers are nice to have I guess but I've never felt that I needed them tbh. Definitely more flexibility editing wise which is useful for getting really lifelike performances. It can be a huge time sink though.

Some of the new SINE instruments are actually sounding pretty good, especially if they update them some more. Trumpet 2 is pretty killer - sounds like they totally redid the legatos there


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## Steve Hicks (Dec 1, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Now that our gluttonous Black Friday purchasing has come to a close, it is time to use what we've bought. I thought it might be interesting to try our hands at programming a short snippet of a piece, starting from the same point (same MIDI notes) - but then seeing where each of us takes it in terms of library used, tempo adjustments, MIDI tweaking, CC programming, etc. It would be equally nice to stick to a single library or also to see what combinations can provide. My hope is this can be a nice way to share some programming / mixing tips with the community (especially from the experts here) so that we can all maximize what we've purchased - a selfish cause since I am far from a talented programmer or mixer.
> 
> To kick it off, I thought the opening to John Williams' Olympic Fanfare and Theme would be interesting to tackle.
> 
> ...


Cinebrass seems made for this kind of thing. I'll have a go a with synchron brass tomorrow


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## Jonathan Moray (Dec 1, 2021)

I did a really lazy version of the fanfare this time using your midi. With more time it could have been made to sound better but don't have that right now and wanted to see what a really quick version would sound like. I don't think it's exactly the right amount of instruments playing at all times because I used the sustain pedal to disable the legato and just play block chords mostly. It's especially apparent at the end and that's one part I might come back to, but for the most part, it's at least somewhat correct and the most important thing, it sounds correct.

It is mixed somewhat: EQ, sat, and reverb mostly. I tried to make it closer to the reference which I didn't have last time so it's a little bit darker without as much cuivré which I went pretty heavy on in the last example.

I just want to make this clear again, this is not really a fair representation of what the library could sound like if used as intended. It could definitely sound better if programming each part separately and more meticulously. In this example it's as if the same player is playing multiple lines at the same time from the exact same spot on the stage... doesn't make too much sense and can create some issues with the sound.


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## Laurin Lenschow (Dec 1, 2021)

Steve Hicks said:


> Cinebrass seems made for this kind of thing.


Damn, you're quicker than me - I already started working on my version with CineBrass and wanted to finish and post it tomorrow. Might do it anyway though 
Great sounding mockup btw!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 1, 2021)

Steve Hicks said:


> Cinebrass seems made for this kind of thing. I'll have a go a with synchron brass tomorrow


CineBrass and Synchron Brass were two of the ones I was hoping somebody would do!

Which CineBrass patches did you use here? I have CB Core, Pro, and Sonore and my version does not sound nearly as crisp, especially for those repetitions. If you are willing to share your MIDI file, I'm sure folks would love to learn from it!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 1, 2021)

Jonathan Moray said:


> I did a really lazy version of the fanfare this time using your midi. With more time it could have been made to sound better but don't have that right now and wanted to see what a really quick version would sound like. I don't think it's exactly the right amount of instruments playing at all times because I used the sustain pedal to disable the legato and just play block chords mostly. It's especially apparent at the end and that's one part I might come back to, but for the most part, it's at least somewhat correct and the most important thing, it sounds correct.
> 
> It is mixed somewhat: EQ, sat, and reverb mostly. I tried to make it closer to the reference which I didn't have last time so it's a little bit darker without as much cuivré which I went pretty heavy on in the last example.
> 
> I just want to make this clear again, this is not really a fair representation of what the library could sound like if used as intended. It could definitely sound better if programming each part separately and more meticulously. In this example it's as if the same player is playing multiple lines at the same time from the exact same spot on the stage... doesn't make too much sense and can create some issues with the sound.


Thank you for sharing! I think the second half of your version is my favorite so far just in terms of the tightness and crispness of the notes. One of the strengths of Infinite Brass for sure. How much did you use EQ to tame the top end of IB vs. just toning down CC1?



Laurin Lenschow said:


> Damn, you're quicker than me - I already started working on my version with CineBrass and wanted to finish and post it tomorrow. Might do it anyway though
> Great sounding mockup btw!


Please still share! Great to hear how folks use the same library for the same piece but in different ways.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 1, 2021)

I hope somebody will try this with Spitfire Symphonic Brass or Studio Brass.


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## handz (Dec 1, 2021)

Steve Hicks said:


> Cinebrass seems made for this kind of thing. I'll have a go a with synchron brass tomorrow


Oh yeah. Cinebrass is defo the right choice. I am so sad they didnt made an update to it for so long. It still has the best
Sound.


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## dhmusic (Dec 1, 2021)

Jonathan Moray said:


> I just want to make this clear again, this is not really a fair representation of what the library could sound like if used as intended. It could definitely sound better if programming each part separately and more meticulously. In this example it's as if the same player is playing multiple lines at the same time from the exact same spot on the stage... doesn't make too much sense and can create some issues with the sound.


Too late! Grab the tomatos, boys - get 'im!

jk you did a great job


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## shawnsingh (Dec 1, 2021)

I think we should keep all the demos with the brass section only. It's easy for a dressed example to hide details in the brass that we would want to compare. Timpani, cymbals, and string basses are just as much a part of a powerful brass section as the brass themselves...


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## FireGS (Dec 1, 2021)

All except IB so far sound like overlapping notes in the intro. As soon as I hear that, I'm out.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 1, 2021)

FireGS said:


> All except IB so far sound like overlapping notes in the intro. As soon as I hear that, I'm out.


The real recording sounds like the notes flow into one another too in the intro.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 1, 2021)

shawnsingh said:


> I think we should keep all the demos with the brass section only. It's easy for a dressed example to hide details in the brass that we would want to compare. Timpani, cymbals, and string basses are just as much a part of a powerful brass section as the brass themselves...


Agree - that would be ideal.


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## Steve Hicks (Dec 1, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> This is easily the most realistic sounding so far. Sounds more like a real orchestra playing.





liquidlino said:


> This is easily the most realistic sounding so far. Sounds more like a real orchestra





shawnsingh said:


> I think we should keep all the demos with the brass section only. It's easy for a dressed example to hide details in the brass that we would want to compare. Timpani, cymbals, and string basses are just as much a part of a powerful brass section as the brass themselves...


Soz - got over excited and didn’t know the “rules”. I’ll take out the perc (No strings btw) and repost tomorrow.


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## dhmusic (Dec 1, 2021)

FireGS said:


> All except IB so far sound like overlapping notes in the intro. As soon as I hear that, I'm out.





ALittleNightMusic said:


> The real recording sounds like the notes flow into one another too in the intro.


Haha I'd be kinda confused if the divisi trumpets started note stealing from each other all of a sudden


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## RonV (Dec 1, 2021)

Here's my attempt with Adventure Brass horns/trombones and Caspian trumpets. Tuba is JXL. Used the downloaded MIDI and just shortened a few note and lengthened a few.


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## shawnsingh (Dec 1, 2021)

Steve Hicks said:


> Soz - got over excited and didn’t know the “rules”. I’ll take out the perc (No strings btw) and repost tomorrow.


Well it did sound great and I'm sure CineBrass will hold up to being exposed.

But for now I'm still voting for infinite brass. There are a variety of ways to mix it, dry or wet. And in my personal experience it's been possible to easily do all bread and butter articulations while still bring able to sculpt each note uniquely and easily. That's the secret, I think - agile pieces with nuanced articulation will always strain a sampled-articulations library past its capabilities. It's hard to convince people of this though, because when it sounds natural, it's not obvious that it's because of this flexibility.


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## Tralen (Dec 1, 2021)

Just the top trumpet with SM and some ambience. Pardon de laziness.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 1, 2021)

RonV said:


> Here's my attempt with Adventure Brass horns/trombones and Caspian trumpets. Tuba is JXL. Used the downloaded MIDI and just shortened a few note and lengthened a few.


Thanks for sharing! I'm guessing Adventure Brass and Caspian don't have a lower dynamic layer? Comparing to the original recording, which is more mellow, this one is quite buzzy for example. Caspian has a fairly limited set of articulations right? I think it shows here in the repetitions.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 1, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Just the top trumpet with SM and some ambience. Pardon de laziness.


Great! I hope you'll consider doing the full thing with SampleModeling. I'm very curious about that library.


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## axb312 (Dec 1, 2021)

My Attempt with CSB. Could probably be made to sound a lot better with splitting out the instruments, a bit of humanization and a lil MIDI Tweaking and I welcome the opportunity to learn more about this from those who have CSB and are better versed with it.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 1, 2021)

axb312 said:


> My Attempt with CSB. Could probably be made to sound a lot better with splitting out the instruments, a bit of humanization and a lil MIDI Tweaking and I welcome the opportunity to learn more about this from those who have CSB and are better versed with it.


Did you slow down the tempo here? I'd be curious how CSB holds up at the original tempo (88 BPM). Nice thing is it comes with a wide variety of short notes, which come in handy in a piece like this.


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## axb312 (Dec 1, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Did you slow down the tempo here? I'd be curious how CSB holds up at the original tempo (88 BPM). Nice thing is it comes with a wide variety of short notes, which come in handy in a piece like this.


Re-uploaded at 88 bpm...


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 1, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Thanks for participating! Not a lot of VSL Dimension Brass demos around here, so great to see that. They are recorded in the silent stage right? Did you add reverb to this? To me ear, you could probably do with a bit more if it suited your taste. I think your panning of the horns and trumpets is much better than my version - you can really hear the horn syncopation. I just left Berlin Brass as it came out of the box.


It's the Synchron-ized version.

I like the dryer sound myself, but get your point as the original has more reverb on it. I will do another attempt!


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 1, 2021)

handz said:


> Interesting thread. I love this piece
> 
> I hear same problem with all mockups so far - once the fast phrasing passage starts it totally lacks the bite and definiton, aren’t you all using too long articulations? Oh and VSL again is absolute loser to me soundwise, it just don’t sound well 🥲


I have used staccato and sforzato's for the bite. the repetitions were done with repetition patches. The problem is that the bite just isn't really there and one of the things that needs improving in my mock-up.

The "wrongness" in my mock-up has nothing to do with VSL, but with me. I personally like the dryer sound and the fact I didn't use the ensemble patches but individual players. More to control, more to get wrong I suppose 

I'll do another one today which is a bit more wet.


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 1, 2021)

axb312 said:


> My Attempt with CSB. Could probably be made to sound a lot better with splitting out the instruments, a bit of humanization and a lil MIDI Tweaking and I welcome the opportunity to learn more about this from those who have CSB and are better versed with it.


The sound is great, but the longs are a bit short


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## CT (Dec 1, 2021)

This is clearly... difficult for virtual brass. Tried it myself and it took far too long to even reach a point I'd consider "crap."


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## dhmusic (Dec 2, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> I have used staccato and sforzato's for the bite. the repetitions were done with repetition patches. The problem is that the bite just isn't really there and one of the things that needs improving in my mock-up.
> 
> The "wrongness" in my mock-up has nothing to do with VSL, but with me. I personally like the dryer sound and the fact I didn't use the ensemble patches but individual players. More to control, more to get wrong I suppose
> 
> I'll do another one today which is a bit more wet.


I really really like the imperfect sound of it. I'm a fan of dry libraries but I don't have too many.


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## dhmusic (Dec 2, 2021)

Michaelt said:


> This is clearly... difficult for virtual brass. Tried it myself and it took far too long to even reach a point I'd consider "crap."


Agreed! I like that a few people are getting competitive though. I might do another one for fun in that context since I initially wasn't aiming for the John Williams version at all.

You should post it anyway


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## Jonathan Moray (Dec 2, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> Too late! Grab the tomatos, boys - get 'im!
> 
> jk you did a great job


Haha, thanks.

I was actually a little impressed by your version, but I'm not surprised. You're really good with those ARKs. I often come back to your version of "Don't Be Afraid". Despite me owning and having them installed, I very rarely use them. But a couple of months ago that track actually made me revisit them and try to look past all the inconsistencies and I made a little track that turned out alright.

For the Olympic Fanfare, they are a little heavy and I would guess that's because of the mixing, they sound very compressed. I don't hear too much saturation but sounds like quite a bit of compression. Berlin Brass seem to handle those fast reps really well, actually better than most other libraries here, and not surprising considering they are time-stretched to actually fit the tempo compared to the standard staccatissimo patches both in BB and in other libraries.


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## CT (Dec 2, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> You should post it anyway


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## José Herring (Dec 2, 2021)

I'm actually enjoying these little challenges. Here's my rendition of it.


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## dhmusic (Dec 2, 2021)

Jonathan Moray said:


> Haha, thanks.
> 
> I was actually a little impressed by your version, but I'm not surprised. You're really good with those ARKs. I often come back to your version of "Don't Be Afraid". Despite me owning and having them installed, I very rarely use them. But a couple of months ago that track actually made me revisit them and try to look past all the inconsistencies and I made a little track that turned out alright.
> 
> For the Olympic Fanfare, they are a little heavy and I would guess that's because of the mixing, they sound very compressed. I don't hear too much saturation but sounds like quite a bit of compression. Berlin Brass seem to handle those fast reps really well, actually better than most other libraries here, and not surprising considering they are time-stretched to actually fit the tempo compared to the standard staccatissimo patches both in BB and in other libraries.


Bah haha yeah before uploading I was like "is it ready... idk... I'll just pop it back in the microwave another half hour for good measure". It is deep fried twice baked multiband compressed for sure.

I was getting a kick out of all the air that was present in the recordings. I was also kind of dozing off so I figured I'd put it out at least to participate. I'm really glad you like the FFVIII track btw, thanks for mentioning it 

Not sure why I connect with the OT stuff so much. One day a little over a year ago I just decided to only use one dev for a couple months so I could focus and it kinda stuck.

And speaking of libraries Your version with Infinite Brass is really well done! Especially for being done so quickly like you mentioned. I actually went and looked into the library a bit after hearing yours which isn't common these days unless it's a vocalist something kind of niche. I really like the concept behind it.


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## Jonathan Moray (Dec 2, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Thank you for sharing! I think the second half of your version is my favorite so far just in terms of the tightness and crispness of the notes. One of the strengths of Infinite Brass for sure. How much did you use EQ to tame the top end of IB vs. just toning down CC1?


This is *mostly *with dynamics*. *There is some slight hi-shelf cut on some instruments, but nothing too severe. Also, there are some cuts around 3-4k because I often find resonances there. Seriously starting to believe that it's either my tinnitus playing tricks on me or my headphones.


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## Jonathan Moray (Dec 2, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> Bah haha yeah before uploading I was like "is it ready... idk... I'll just pop it back in the microwave another half hour for good measure". It is deep fried twice baked multiband compressed for sure.
> 
> I was getting a kick out of all the air that was present in the recordings. I was also kind of dozing off so I figured I'd put it out at least to participate. I'm really glad you like the FFVIII track btw, thanks for mentioning it


Things like that are so easy to overdo, especially when you're in it because you get used to the intensity of the sound and heavy compression and easily find yourself being like "just a little more".



dhmusic said:


> Not sure why I connect with the OT stuff so much. One day a little over a year ago I just decided to only use one dev for a couple months so I could focus and it kinda stuck.


I think that's very smart if you want to make music and not get obsessed by the smallest thing. Too much choice is not necessarily a good thing. For me, OT has a great sound as can be heard in most demos, but it's a bit too inconsistent with its dynamic layers, sample starts, articulations and so on, and I never got along with its legato.

But you can definitely, undoubtedly do amazing stuff with OT and you don't have to worry as much about mixing, automation, and authenticity. You just have to write and it just works. It's not perfect (as shown in the examples above) but for most, it's good enough.



dhmusic said:


> And speaking of libraries Your version with Infinite Brass is really well done! Especially for being done so quickly like you mentioned. I actually went and looked into the library a bit after hearing yours which isn't common these days unless it's a vocalist something kind of niche. I really like the concept behind it.


Glad to hear it. I would advise that you look through the Infinite thread first. There's are people who own Infinite and just can't get it to work the way they want to or they think it's too much of a hassle to do all the automation or it just doesn't sound very good without a good understanding of how to use it and mix it. Although, I think everyone could benefit from having it in their arsenal because of the solo instruments and how great it is at these really fast repeated notes if nothing else.

Compared to OT, there's usually a lot more work involved to get it sounding alright, and as a composer that can be really frustrating, but as a mock-up artisan (which is the position I mostly find myself in as of late), it's absolutely great but I also don't have to focus on the composing itself, I only have to focus on getting it sounding good. It takes quite a bit of time.


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## GNP (Dec 2, 2021)

Jonathan Moray said:


> but I also don't have to focus on the composing itself, I only have to focus on getting it sounding good. It takes quite a bit of time.


That's exactly it. You need to do quick sketches from libraries that sound good out of the box and not lose track of what you need to do in concept by getting stuck on trying to immediately make it sound good. Alot of people get stuck in this trap. By the time they're done trying to make the brass section realistic of just one small part of their score, they've lost the fervor and inspiration for the entire bigger picture.

When it comes to brass, there's not really a point trying to fake tonguing because it just sounds horrible. 

*Then again, what if I need custom tonguings from doubles, triplets, dotted, each with just 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 hits?*

*PLUS synced to the DAW's tempo, **at ANY tempo?*

So far I haven't found a brass library that is able to do all this. If you wanna do John Williams, the brass libraries have to keep up. This has really nothing much to do with MIDI programming skills.

That said, I'd probably only utilize the John Williams thing in very rare situations in present day.

And for my personal taste, I find fanfares really lame in 98% of psychological situations in present day filmscoring.


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## FrozenIcicle (Dec 2, 2021)

GNP said:


> That's exactly it. You need to do quick sketches from libraries that sound good out of the box and not lose track of what you need to do in concept by getting stuck on trying to immediately make it sound good. Alot of people get stuck in this trap. By the time they're done trying to make the brass section realistic of just one small part of their score, they've lost the fervor and inspiration for the entire bigger picture.
> 
> When it comes to brass, there's not really a point trying to fake tonguing because it just sounds horrible. *Then again, what if I need custom tonguings from doubles, triplets, dotted, each with just 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 hits?** PLUS synced to the DAW's tempo, **at ANY tempo?*
> 
> ...


it's true, I've stopped trying to make things real cause I lose inspiration fast


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## GNP (Dec 2, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> it's true, I've stopped trying to make things real cause I lose inspiration fast


Yup. Once you've finished the entire score, then you can dedicate time to making everything sound more realistic. But only once you're done writing.

Same goes for mixing - many engineers get caught up in the minute details and as a result they lose sight of the bigger picture mix. It's always best to sketch out the entire thing FIRST, THEN when it's all done, you focus on the minute details.


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## constaneum (Dec 2, 2021)

Rob said:


> Thank you ALittleNightMusic for the thread, fun and useful... here's a try with Wallander's Wivi:
> 
> 
> View attachment BrassTest-Wivi.mp3


at least i feel this handles better for 15s onwards compared to the Berlin Brass' version. i can't accept Berlin's


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## GNP (Dec 2, 2021)

Alot of people think that brass tonguing only belongs to "positive feelings fanfares". Lol.

*You can't call yourself a FILM composer if you're only able to deal with "positive feelings", aite?*


*That's like calling yourself a surgeon who makes sick people better, but you can't deal with looking at blood and organs.*

If you listen to John William's War of the Worlds - brass tonguing can be also used effectively in DARK and EDGY material.

Here's my considerations for brass sample libraries:

- Tonguing in straights, triplets, dotted (rhythmic options)
- In EACH of these options, there must be a range from 1 - at least 6 tonguing repetitions. (assuming fixed recordings for realism)
- Able to adjust intensity from soft to loud and vice versa, assuming mod wheel
- On TOP of this, *the "fixed recordings" must ALL be adjustable to ANY tempo in the DAW*.
- I would gladly welcome synthetic approaches to circumvent "fixed recordings" obstacles.

Now if this can be achieved, then it will be alot easier for ANYONE who wants to do John Williams - and not just about "positive feelings".


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 2, 2021)

GNP said:


> When it comes to brass, there's not really a point trying to fake tonguing because it just sounds horrible.
> 
> *Then again, what if I need custom tonguings from doubles, triplets, dotted, each with just 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 hits?*
> 
> *PLUS synced to the DAW's tempo, **at ANY tempo?*


I have to check, but VSL Dimension brass has 16th repetitions that are repeated as long as you want, tempo synched through the timestretch feature (which I used in my example) and are varied by the humanize feature, which makes every note slightly different. It goes a long way. but doesn't really get to the nuances of double, triple etc. tonguing.


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## dhmusic (Dec 2, 2021)

constaneum said:


> at least i feel this handles better for 15s onwards compared to the Berlin Brass' version. i can't accept Berlin's


Guess you'll just have to show us how it's done


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## Jonathan Moray (Dec 2, 2021)

GNP said:


> That's exactly it. You need to do quick sketches from libraries that sound good out of the box and not lose track of what you need to do in concept by getting stuck on trying to immediately make it sound good. Alot of people get stuck in this trap. By the time they're done trying to make the brass section realistic of just one small part of their score, they've lost the fervor and inspiration for the entire bigger picture.


Exactly. Now, I'm pretty efficient with the Infinite Series, but I would still either do my sketches mostly on piano or ensemble patches / traditional libraries, or at most, Infinite with the sustain pedal pressed down - unless it's a solo line. Because I want to work fast when I compose or I will get bored with each idea by hearing it a million times before I get past the first couple of bars. Focus on the composition and use your imagination to fill in the blanks and to "hear" what the final product will sound like or you will easily be bogged down by putting what you're hearing in your head down on paper or your daw and won't get anywhere.

Then once you're done with the composing stage take a step back and clear your head to get into the headspace to actually make pice sound like what you hear in your head. For most, it will be a tedious process.

OR if you really don't want to deal with all that jazz and want to focus on the actual music, send it to a mock-up artist, some like me, who will mock it up for you.


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## Steve Hicks (Dec 2, 2021)

Cinebrass without Perc as requested. Also my version with Cinematic Studio
View attachment Olympic CB MAster.mp3

View attachment Olympic CSB Master.mp3


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## Laurin Lenschow (Dec 2, 2021)

Here is my version with CineBrass (Core only):
View attachment CineBrass plays the Olympic Fanfare.mp3


I might do another one with Hollywood Brass tomorrow.


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## constaneum (Dec 2, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> Guess you'll just have to show us how it's done


I don't have BB to try out haha


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 2, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> I have to check, but VSL Dimension brass has 16th repetitions that are repeated as long as you want, tempo synched through the timestretch feature (which I used in my example) and are varied by the humanize feature, which makes every note slightly different. It goes a long way. but doesn't really get to the nuances of double, triple etc. tonguing.


Here's an example of Dimension brass 4 trumpets doing humanized repetitions in tempo 84.

View attachment Dim brass repetitions.mp3


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## GNP (Dec 2, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Here's an example of Dimension brass 4 trumpets doing humanized repetitions in tempo 84.
> 
> View attachment Dim brass repetitions.mp3


It's passable but still cannot beat the feel of real tonguing. Now i'm not one to be extremely obsessed with absolute realism. But I definitely need one that sounds really good, and also easy to sketch with. 

One on hand, it needs to be retriggered by MIDI in order to be able to fit any tempo.

On the other hand, a realistic fixed recording will not have that flexibility either.

Sucks.


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 2, 2021)

GNP said:


> It's passable but still cannot beat the feel of real tonguing.
> 
> Sucks.


That about sums it up.


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## GNP (Dec 2, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> That about sums it up.


Lol, no, it doesn't. But sum it up the way you think anyway.


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## Ivan M. (Dec 2, 2021)

Here's my take using Infinite Brass:

View attachment olympic fanfare.mp3


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## ScoringFilm (Dec 2, 2021)

GNP said:


> And for my personal taste, I find fanfares really lame in 98% of psychological situations in present day filmscoring.


Although this isn't film music; it's for the Olympic Games!


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## GNP (Dec 2, 2021)

ScoringFilm said:


> Although this isn't film music; it's for the Olympic Games!


Tell that to the OP who was trying to make digs not on the same territory!


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## Stef Bosch (Dec 2, 2021)

I also gave it a shot. The second part could have been programmed a bit better I think. It was made with Adventure Brass, Audio Imperia's SOLO and my own trumpet library made with dry samples.


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## Stevie (Dec 2, 2021)

What strikes me with most examples is that there is way too little CC usage. Especially when the notes should sound like a portato/diminuendo. People tend to just miss those little, but important details, which results in an organ like tone. Brass is all about dynamics.
Listen to the original again and try to absorb the way the brass players intonate.


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 2, 2021)

Stevie said:


> What strikes me with most examples is that there is way too little CC usage. Especially when the notes should sound like a portato/diminuendo. People tend to just miss those little, but important details, which results in an organ like tone. Brass is all about dynamics.
> Listen to the original again and try to absorb the way the brass players intonate.


It's pretty hard to get all those things right without a score to be honest. You get so involved in getting tone, articulation and mixing right that these things tend to get left behind. Probably good for the second or third attempts.

Good feedback though!


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## Stevie (Dec 2, 2021)

When I get a bit more time, I will try to contribute my version.


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## yiph2 (Dec 2, 2021)

Here's AR1:
I could probably have done better but I did it very quickly


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## axb312 (Dec 2, 2021)

yiph2 said:


> Here's AR1:


Pls. render without the metronome...


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## yiph2 (Dec 2, 2021)

axb312 said:


> Pls. render without the metronome...


I realized that right after I posted


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## Stef Bosch (Dec 2, 2021)

Stevie said:


> What strikes me with most examples is that there is way too little CC usage. Especially when the notes should sound like a portato/diminuendo. People tend to just miss those little, but important details, which results in an organ like tone. Brass is all about dynamics.
> Listen to the original again and try to absorb the way the brass players intonate.


I agree. The way I approach a mockup like this is getting the overall musicality (by creating a tempo map) and the tone/mix right first. More CC usage comes later when I have the time to do that. In my example I've only done a ramp up on the trumpets and a CC1 curve going down on the long notes. Now that I re-listen to it, some notes might benefit from a volume curve.

@yiph2 I really like the tone of the short notes! The second part sounds a little cluttered. Probably because of the Horn Ensemble, so not really your fault.


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## jbuhler (Dec 2, 2021)

yiph2 said:


> Here's AR1:
> I could probably have done better but I did it very quickly


I am also working on an AR1 rendition but haven't had time to polish it. I had fun playing with the mic selection on this piece. Also, I really wish marcato could be made a bit longer.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 2, 2021)

GNP said:


> Tell that to the OP who was trying to make digs not on the same territory!


What?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 2, 2021)

Michaelt said:


>


Aw, and here I was hoping you'd be the one that could share a version with one of the Spitfire libraries (SSO or BBCSO).


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 2, 2021)

José Herring said:


> I'm actually enjoying these little challenges. Here's my rendition of it.


Nice! Which library did you use for this?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 2, 2021)

constaneum said:


> at least i feel this handles better for 15s onwards compared to the Berlin Brass' version. i can't accept Berlin's


What in particular did you not like about the Berlin version? 

Please do share your own rendition (hopefully something you can accept!). It's all in good fun.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 2, 2021)

Steve Hicks said:


> Cinebrass without Perc as requested. Also my version with Cinematic Studio





Laurin Lenschow said:


> Here is my version with CineBrass (Core only):
> View attachment CineBrass plays the Olympic Fanfare.mp3
> 
> 
> I might do another one with Hollywood Brass tomorrow.


Nice to hear two different renditions using the same library! Counter to what somebody else said, differences in MIDI programming clearly does make a difference in the end result!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 2, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> I have to check, but VSL Dimension brass has 16th repetitions that are repeated as long as you want, tempo synched through the timestretch feature (which I used in my example) and are varied by the humanize feature, which makes every note slightly different. It goes a long way. but doesn't really get to the nuances of double, triple etc. tonguing.


Berlin Brass is similar with their repetitions - though they have both recorded 16th and triplets phrases and continuous playback.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 2, 2021)

Ivan M. said:


> Here's my take using Infinite Brass:
> 
> View attachment olympic fanfare.mp3


Thanks for sharing! Infinite Brass clearly has the flexibility required for this piece - I think you could tighten up the note durations for the second part even further.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 2, 2021)

Stevie said:


> When I get a bit more time, I will try to contribute my version.


Will be great to see it - thanks!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 2, 2021)

yiph2 said:


> Here's AR1:
> I could probably have done better but I did it very quickly


Those AR1 trumpets have a really tight short note! Didn't realize they were capable of that. Thanks for sharing!


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## Ivan M. (Dec 2, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Thanks for sharing! Infinite Brass clearly has the flexibility required for this piece - I think you could tighten up the note durations for the second part even further.


Indeed! I utilized portamento, which is something I heard in the original. And, with IB, portamento requires lower velocity, meaning low attack. Another "accent" layer would improve it a lot.


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## NekujaK (Dec 2, 2021)

Here are four examples using four different libraries. I only had about 20 minutes to spend on each, which is definitely not enough time.

Clearly, these versions are not great from a programming perspective. However, I was actually more curious to hear the differences in how these libraries natively handled the material, given the same dynamics approach, and whenever possible using the same articulations.

So you've been warned - these are very crude. Let the games begin...


*AROOF*: the lenghty staccato passage in the last half seems to suffer from sync issues among the samples, and there's also an almost phasey effect happening in that part.
View attachment Fanfare - AROOF.mp3


*Forzo*: this one surprised me - I think with some extra effort massaging the dynamics, this could be made to sound quite good.
View attachment Fanfare - Forzo.mp3


*Caspian*: (no tuba) I've always liked this performance-based brass library, but unfortunately, it sounds extremely synthy here, and the shorts suffer from machine-gun effect. This was a big disappointment.
View attachment Fanfare - Caspian.mp3


*Jaeger*: Not surprisingly, total overkill for a delicate passage like this. Jaeger has always had nice trumpets and horns, but this type of passage brings out an undesirable synthy quality.
View attachment Fanfare - Jaeger.mp3


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 2, 2021)

What are some programming tips folks are discovering here?

I have two to share:

1) I did a lot of tempo automation for this - trying to use the original recording as my template. Moving MIDI note starts could achieve the same thing I imagine (but this way it adjusts all parts at once). It really was required to match the feel and flow of the actual recording. However, this is also dependent on the library's editing - for example, if the sample transient start points are consistent, you can be more sure of this, but if they're not / all over the play, it'll mess with your feel in certain areas and then it is more of a pain to fix.






2) While long notes utilize crossfade between dynamic layers, with shorts, you don't have a crossfade necessarily - more playing back the particular sample in that dynamic / velocity zone. What I noticed is that if I was switching between longs and shorts (especially rapidly), it can be hard to keep the timbral and dynamic qualities somewhat consistent through the line. I wonder if this is where something like Pacific Samples 16 dynamic layers or Soundpaint's auto-generated 127 layers would help minimize the differences. I think Infinite Brass has less of this issue compared to traditional libraries.

Anyway, hope that helps somebody out there. Hope more folks can share their tips and tricks as well.


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## José Herring (Dec 2, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Nice! Which library did you use for this?


Trumpets--Adventure Brass
Horns--Adventure Brass+HB Opus
Tbones--CineBrass+JXL
Tuba--BBCSO+HB Opus

The surprising winner was Adventure Brass. One line no articulation switching on either of the patches used.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 2, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Trumpets--Adventure Brass
> Horns--Adventure Brass+HB Opus
> Tbones--CineBrass+JXL
> Tuba--BBCSO+HB Opus
> ...


Thanks! What made you choose the combinations that you did? I'm sure that'll be interesting for folks to hear.

Adventure Brass was used by somebody else as well I believe - seems like a popular choice for this piece (doesn't come up as often in other discussions for some reason).


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## José Herring (Dec 2, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Thanks! What made you choose the combinations that you did? I'm sure that'll be interesting for folks to hear.
> 
> Adventure Brass was used by somebody else as well I believe - seems like a popular choice for this piece (doesn't come up as often in other discussions for some reason).


A while back I invested in a bunch of brass libraries and did a shootout between them and I found only two were capable of doing convincing double and tripple tongue with just single shot stacc samples. Though it was the last library I reached for eventually I ended up trying all the libraries I have and ended up with Adventure Brass as the best sounding line for this piece.

For horns HB has great horns that can handled just about anything. Adventure Brass because stacking on 4 notes on one patch sounds terrible so I reached for Adventure Brass horns to fill the bottom part of the harmony.

JXL Tbones because they are great. CB Tbones because they had that lower range bite to them with just the sustains.

BBCSO core Tuba because it sounds massive and low and deep. HB Tuba because I just need another Tuba to balance out the low end in unison.


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## Hendrixon (Dec 2, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> Your turn, handz _Zimmer_


Ok now that was funny!


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## Rob (Dec 2, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> This sounds awesome. I'm not familiar with the WIVI stuff but it seems pretty flexible. Nice job!


thank you dh, I'm a long time user of wivi, it was revolutionary years ago, and still can provide expressive performances today. The beginning of instruments modeling actually... a dream come true for users like me who played a wind controller.


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## Trash Panda (Dec 2, 2021)

AROOF Vintage 1 Mics. Only processing is Soothe, Gulfoss and a limiter on the mix bus and CRP on Reverb Send.

View attachment Olympic Fanfare - Vintage 1.mp3


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## dhmusic (Dec 2, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> AROOF Vintage 1 Mics. Only processing is Soothe, Gulfoss and a limiter on the mix bus and CRP on Reverb Send.
> 
> View attachment Olympic Fanfare - Vintage 1.mp3


I was just about to call you over here haha. Nice work man!


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## Rob (Dec 2, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I too hadn't heard of these, but I like the tightness of the shorts here (probably the tightest of the bunch so far!) and then warm mellow tone seems to match the recording the best. Did you do anything special for mixing? How did you find programming this particular instrument? Thanks for sharing!


sorry for the delayed reply, was in a studio recording... I like to tweak wivi instruments and know them pretty well, but this time I've used them out of the box, with the exception of a bit of work on the attacks. The positioning of instruments is done in the plugin itself, a very nice gui with a stage where you place the instruments. I've added a bit of eq and R4 for the tail, trying to match more or less the colour of the original.


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## Soundbed (Dec 2, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Now that our gluttonous Black Friday purchasing has come to a close, it is time to use what we've bought. I thought it might be interesting to try our hands at programming a short snippet of a piece, starting from the same point (same MIDI notes) - but then seeing where each of us takes it in terms of library used, tempo adjustments, MIDI tweaking, CC programming, etc. It would be equally nice to stick to a single library or also to see what combinations can provide. My hope is this can be a nice way to share some programming / mixing tips with the community (especially from the experts here) so that we can all maximize what we've purchased - a selfish cause since I am far from a talented programmer or mixer.
> 
> To kick it off, I thought the opening to John Williams' Olympic Fanfare and Theme would be interesting to tackle.
> 
> ...


My favorite recording of this is on cassette and I haven't heard it in years, but it's not an "official" recording. It was done by a US Military Band in the 80's. I recall it being more "sharp" and "pointed" sounding. Really brilliant and vibrant. The audio example here is pretty mellow, compared to my memory of that recording.

Too bad I no longer own any cassette players.


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## Soundbed (Dec 2, 2021)

yiph2 said:


> Here's AR1:





jbuhler said:


> I am also working on an AR1 rendition [...] I really wish marcato could be made a bit longer.





ALittleNightMusic said:


> Those AR1 trumpets have a really tight short note!


Yeah that's one thing I encountered, there's some really short tight notes in the AROOF trumpets, but there's times you want a performance shorts version where you can make it shorter or longer and still tight


NekujaK said:


> *AROOF*: the lenghty staccato passage in the last half seems to suffer from sync issues among the samples


The "tightness" knob in AROOF doesn't exactly do what we might think at first ... I had an issue with it in my Star Wars mockup attempt. I think @Trash Panda might have mentioned it too. Whether it was used or not used, it might have either helped or hurt, depending. :D BUT — I do think once you learn how to use it, it's possible to get things on time ... at least, that's what I recall. Unless a round robin is wrong. I don't know if I examined it that closely.



NekujaK said:


> *Forzo*: this one surprised me


Forzo is one of my favorites for bigger, warmer, sounds. And I often like the trumpets for some parts.

~

I tried some myself but the MIDI needs a lot of work to fit the performance rather than the notation. I hear a lot of the MIDI influencing what we're hearing from the various packages, and I would guess that the subjectively better examples may also have had more MIDI work done by each person.

Either that, or, CineBrass was designed to work with "notation program MIDI" ? :D (I don't have it.)


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## Trash Panda (Dec 2, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Yeah that's one thing I encountered, there's some really short tight notes in the AROOF trumpets, but there's times you want a performance shorts version


You can kinda do this with tenutos. By default the short release is set to off in the three dot menu next to the settings gear. It can sound kinda weird at times though. Might require layering in longs and fiddling with the release tail volume (CC17). 



Soundbed said:


> The "tightness" knob in AROOF doesn't exactly do what we might think at first ... I had an issue with it in my Star Wars mockup attempt. I think @Trash Panda might have mentioned it too. Whether it was used or not used, it might have either helped or hurt, depending. :D BUT — I do think once you learn how to use it, it's possible to get things on time ... at least, that's what I recall. Unless a round robin is wrong. I don't know if I examined it that closely.


It’s a sample start offset knob. Turn it higher, it cuts more into the sample. The real issue is each instrument has a different offset time. This is what I was able to figure out: https://vi-control.net/community/th...tabase-spreadsheet.105332/page-9#post-4962185


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## handz (Dec 2, 2021)

If anything, this thread is a beautiful example of how even the most expensive current libraries can’t get you even close to real orchestra playing- and this makes me really sad. I thought we will be in better position in 2021 😥🙏


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 2, 2021)

handz said:


> If anything, this thread is a beautiful example of how even the most expensive current libraries can’t get you even close to real orchestra playing- and this makes me really sad. I thought we will be in better position in 2021 😥🙏


Why is that sad though? I think it’s nice that even still, human players playing together live are unmatched - what a great reason to continue to support them, live concerts, and scoring sessions that use them!

Of course, media budgets may not have as discerning of an ear as us - and then there’s the question of how much does the audience notice or care how close underscore sounds to a real orchestra? And can libraries today _with good programming _suffice?

Still waiting on your rendition


----------



## CT (Dec 2, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I think it’s nice that even still, human players playing together live are unmatched - what a great reason to continue to support them, live concerts, and scoring sessions that use them!


Yes... absolutely. It's not something to be lamented, that such a gap exists. For me, it is instead a balance between "I want to reach at least a decent percentage of the nuance possible with real players, knowing that it can never be a _very_ _large_ percentage and that's fine," and "I want to simply communicate the spirit of the music in a way that composers of yore would have likely envied and wanted in their toolkit."

Trying to skew more to the latter in the context of this test, I revisited what I did last night, so here it is.


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## Dan (Dec 2, 2021)

Here is Synchron Brass:

View attachment Olympic Fanfare Synchron Brass.mp3


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## CT (Dec 2, 2021)

^ Best I've heard of Synchron Brass thus far, nice.


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## José Herring (Dec 2, 2021)

Dan said:


> Here is Synchron Brass:
> 
> View attachment Olympic Fanfare Synchron Brass.mp3


Very nice tone. Struggles a little on the second half keeping up with the fast marcato but over all not bad at all.


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## CT (Dec 2, 2021)

I like how articulate the Synchron multitongues are, and the trumpets' attitude is right. Not so fond of the mix/recording. Everything is a compromise, of course. 

With enough time and care, any properly executed library (there are a handful) can get "close enough." The amount of time, though, I don't think is practical in a professional deadlined situation. Surely not surprising, then, is the infrequency with which VI-based composers engage in this kind of writing....


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 2, 2021)

Michaelt said:


> Yes... absolutely. It's not something to be lamented, that such a gap exists. For me, it is instead a balance between "I want to reach at least a decent percentage of the nuance possible with real players, knowing that it can never be a _very_ _large_ percentage and that's fine," and "I want to simply communicate the spirit of the music in a way that composers of yore would have likely envied and wanted in their toolkit."
> 
> Trying to skew more to the latter in the context of this test, I revisited what I did last night, so here it is.
> 
> View attachment 64313


Which library is this? The tone is nice. For the 32nd repetitions, I almost want to start them earlier or speed them up a bit if possible.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 2, 2021)

Dan said:


> Here is Synchron Brass:
> 
> View attachment Olympic Fanfare Synchron Brass.mp3


Thanks for sharing! Which articulations did you end up using from the many available in Synchron Brass?


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## racerx (Dec 2, 2021)

Super quick sound file before bed. JXL Brass


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## CT (Dec 2, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Which library is this? The tone is nice. For the 32nd repetitions, I almost want to start them earlier or spend them up a bit if possible.


Yeah, this is BBCSO. I am not thrilled with how the multitongue articulations are time stretched, it's just not as clean as I'd like. I initially did those manually with regular short notes and that might really be a better solution.


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## scherzo (Dec 3, 2021)

Cool thread. Tricky piece. I decided to have a stab at this too. Several stabs, actually.

Here's Berlin Brass:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4g5c8zsaelapsyp/vic_fanfare-Berlin.wav?dl=0
An attempt with Synchron Brass: 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f681p2yuksvvlne/vic_fanfare-VSL.wav?dl=0
I don't know SB very well yet, but it's clear from this exercise that I need to re-do my presets. I think it could be made to sound much better with some clever use of articulation stacking. Oh well.

A much more half-assed attempt with Modern Scoring Brass: 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jik6j7ktla5p9hf/vic_fanfare-MSB.wav?dl=0
This is one of those libraries that I like more in theory than in practice, and am always looking for places to use it - but usually end up getting better results with other libraries. Something peculiar about the sound that I don't enjoy very much, especially when all sections are playing - throwing in a few MSB instruments as stand-in soloists can be quite powerful though. I think this example could be rendered better if I got more detailed with automating the sizzle control and detuning on a per-note basis, but I decided it wasn't worth the time for now.

Berlin Brass is completely unprocessed. Synchron and MSB has a bit of Tupe on them, and a splash of reverb (Spaces II: Reynolds Hall). 

Hopefully the links work and won't make your ears bleed too much.


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## dhmusic (Dec 3, 2021)

scherzo said:


> Cool thread. Tricky piece. I decided to have a stab at this too. Several stabs, actually.
> 
> Here's Berlin Brass:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/4g5c8zsaelapsyp/vic_fanfare-Berlin.wav?dl=0
> ...


Really nice work with Berlin Brass!


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## Dan (Dec 3, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Thanks for sharing! Which articulations did you end up using from the many available in Synchron Brass?


Mostly the different portatos and staccatos/staccatissimos plus the occasional marcato or sustain for the longer notes. And of course 160 bpm repetitions (time stretched). For the second half the trumpets play mainly combinations of portato bold and staccato/staccatissimo both bold and agile to achieve the kind of phrasing I wanted. I used articulation sets in Logic, otherwise everything would have needed way too many keyswitches.


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## SZK-Max (Dec 3, 2021)

I love fanfare. I used SampleModeling Only.


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## dhmusic (Dec 3, 2021)

scherzo said:


> Cool thread. Tricky piece. I decided to have a stab at this too. Several stabs, actually.
> 
> Here's Berlin Brass:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/4g5c8zsaelapsyp/vic_fanfare-Berlin.wav?dl=0
> ...


Is this Berlin Brass for Kontakt or SINE?


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## Stevie (Dec 3, 2021)

What I miss with most examples here (excluding Adventure Brass, WIVI and SM):
you guys omit The blaring legato part in the second half completely, but use stacs instead.
I know it's way more work, but IMHO that's part of the deal and adds extremely to the realism.


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## dhmusic (Dec 3, 2021)

Stevie said:


> I know it's way more work, but IMHO that's part of the deal and adds extremely to the realism.


That's only if you can pull it off - it'll go from zero to wtf real fast otherwise.


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## Stevie (Dec 3, 2021)

Yes, I agree, but what's the point otherwise? Wouldn't it be great to get the best possible results?
At least to pay the libraries justice? I think a lot of libraries come across as bad, even though they aren't.


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 3, 2021)

Stevie said:


> What I miss with most examples here (excluding Adventure Brass and SM):
> you guys omit The blaring legato part in the second half completely, but use stacs instead.
> I know it's way more work, but IMHO that's part of the deal and adds extremely to the realism.


With all your comments, I'm really looking forward to your rendition, as I have the feeling it would be of epic quality.

Let me elaborate on that a bit. I really appreciate your comments on the renditions and think your pointers are right and valuable. On the other hand, the "All you guys" comments come down as a bit condescending. So, I invite you to put your money where your mouth is then.


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## dhmusic (Dec 3, 2021)

Stevie said:


> At least to pay the libraries justice?


sheeeeeit not for free


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## Stevie (Dec 3, 2021)

I will try my very best


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 3, 2021)

Stevie said:


> I will try my very best


Better make it the epitome of epicness, because we'll rain hell down upon you otherwise 😂


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## ScoringFilm (Dec 3, 2021)

Here's my humble effort. My preferred setup of Cinebrass Hi (Tpts & Horns) and Spitfire Low (Troms & Tuba).

I very much suspect that the next part of the phrase (Trombones on the melody) will be more challenging to reproduce with samples.


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 3, 2021)

ScoringFilm said:


> Here's my humble effort. My preferred setup of Cinebrass Hi (Tpts & Horns) and Spitfire Low (Troms & Tuba).
> 
> I very much suspect that the next part of the phrase (Trombones on the melody) will be more challenging to reproduce with samples.


I think you forgot to add something 😄😉


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## ScoringFilm (Dec 3, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> I think you forgot to add something 😄😉


Done!


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## dhmusic (Dec 3, 2021)

ScoringFilm said:


> Here's my humble effort. My preferred setup of Cinebrass Hi (Tpts & Horns) and Spitfire Low (Troms & Tuba).
> 
> I very much suspect that the next part of the phrase (Trombones on the melody) will be more challenging to reproduce with samples.


nice work! I really like the phrasing choices you made here. The execution feels a bit mechanical though, which I noticed in some of the other Cinebrass examples. I'm guessing they just take more cc programming to get sounding expressive.


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## Stevie (Dec 3, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Let me elaborate on that a bit. I really appreciate your comments on the renditions and think your pointers are right and valuable. On the other hand, the "All you guys" comments come down as a bit condescending. So, I invite you to put your money where your mouth is then.


I have to apologise, if I came across as patronising. That was definitely not my intention.
I can see that people don’t want to spend aeons for a short mockup like that.
However, I can definitely see a huge benefit by doing so. We learn exactly how our libraries work and
what they are capable of.
I‘m working on the mockup in between work breaks. So Far, I have been spending time on the trumpets. Got MSB, Jaeger, Symphonic Brass and Opus in the project. But I will see, if I can add CineBrass, too.
I’m very interested in the results myself. This might take some time…


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 3, 2021)

Stevie said:


> I have to apologise, if I came across as patronising. That was definitely not my intention.
> I can see that people don’t want to spend aeons for a short mockup like that.
> However, I can definitely see a huge benefit by doing so. We learn exactly how our libraries work and
> what they are capable of.
> ...


Looking forward to it!

I'll be spending more time with it when I'm no longer sick and tired of listening to the piece 😂


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 3, 2021)

racerx said:


> Super quick sound file before bed. JXL Brass


Thanks for posting! I think the lack of recorded double / triple tongues was a mistake for JXL Brass (one of my earliest complaints after buying it). You managed to do well with the staccatissimo articulation though.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 3, 2021)

scherzo said:


> Cool thread. Tricky piece. I decided to have a stab at this too. Several stabs, actually.
> 
> Here's Berlin Brass:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/4g5c8zsaelapsyp/vic_fanfare-Berlin.wav?dl=0
> ...


Thank you for sharing THREE renditions! Very cool to hear.

As somebody else who used Berlin Brass, was interesting to hear the differences between your's and mine. Did you use the ensemble patches or did you break everything out amongst the individual players? Was this SINE or in Kontakt?

I just purchased Modern Scoring Brass and am excited to try out a version this weekend. Will have to see how it fares vs. this one.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 3, 2021)

ScoringFilm said:


> Here's my humble effort. My preferred setup of Cinebrass Hi (Tpts & Horns) and Spitfire Low (Troms & Tuba).
> 
> I very much suspect that the next part of the phrase (Trombones on the melody) will be more challenging to reproduce with samples.


Very nice! Makes me want to revisit Cinebrass - it is clearly more agile than I have given it credit for.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 3, 2021)

Stevie said:


> I have to apologise, if I came across as patronising. That was definitely not my intention.
> I can see that people don’t want to spend aeons for a short mockup like that.
> However, I can definitely see a huge benefit by doing so. We learn exactly how our libraries work and
> what they are capable of.
> ...


No worries! This thread is all about helping us all improve our usage of these libraries, so your feedback is welcome. It does of course carry more weight if you can show us how to do it better  We will be looking forward to your version and any tips / tricks you can help provide.


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## handz (Dec 3, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Why is that sad though? I think it’s nice that even still, human players playing together live are unmatched - what a great reason to continue to support them, live concerts, and scoring sessions that use them!
> 
> Of course, media budgets may not have as discerning of an ear as us - and then there’s the question of how much does the audience notice or care how close underscore sounds to a real orchestra? And can libraries today _with good programming _suffice?
> 
> Still waiting on your rendition


Oh cmon, we all want to be able to produce music at home that would sound like real players playing. This was always the dream of everyone who is into Orchestral libraries. This has nothing to do with live orchestras. It is like to think that recordings will kill live music...Realis is and was always the goal in this world. 

Yeah, for the common audience, it is already on a level that movie music could be just using samples and nobody would notice but this is not the point I think. 


Sadly I do not have time now as this is a busy season for my business, I don't have even all my samples installed now. But I am listening to all the mockups here with great care


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## CT (Dec 3, 2021)

Stevie said:


> What I miss with most examples here (excluding Adventure Brass, WIVI and SM):
> you guys omit The blaring legato part in the second half completely, but use stacs instead.
> I know it's way more work, but IMHO that's part of the deal and adds extremely to the realism.


As was pointed out elsewhere, you're right in principle but it has to work in practice. I wanted to respect those slurs too, but they, as recorded, just did not fit into the phrase naturally. Too lyrical. I settled for using somewhat overlapped, longer shorts than the surrounding short shorts for a similar effect. Again, this is always a compromise, and no matter how much effort you put into yours, it will be too.


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## scherzo (Dec 3, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> Is this Berlin Brass for Kontakt or SINE?


I'm still a Kontakt luddite, and probably will be for the foreseeable future. I would actually love to leave the Capsule platform behind, but I don't think Sine is quite ready for prime time yet - and, annoyingly, it's still lacking some features that I've grown to depend on (like CC control over mics etc). I'll check in on it again next year though 



ALittleNightMusic said:


> As somebody else who used Berlin Brass, was interesting to hear the differences between your's and mine. Did you use the ensemble patches or did you break everything out amongst the individual players? Was this SINE or in Kontakt?
> 
> I just purchased Modern Scoring Brass and am excited to try out a version this weekend. Will have to see how it fares vs. this one.


I almost always use the individual players. It's just Trumpets 1 & 2 and Horns 2 & 4 in the first part, and the third trumpet and two remaining horns (and trombones and tuba of course) join in the second part. I only used the single articulation patches, all spread out across separate tracks - that way I can easily layer articulations with separate timing, velocity and controller data, which I think is often essential to getting the most out of this and other libraries. It can be quite labor intensive though.

Curious to hear how you get along with Modern Scoring Brass. There hasn't been a lot of talk about it on here I think. I still have this nagging feeling that there's a decent library in there but I just haven't learned how to use it right yet, or something. Should spend more on it.

I think it's really hard for any one library to pull off material like this though. If I were to try to render this piece 'for real' I would probably try mixing and matching libraries and try playing to their relative strengths. That might have been a more interesting exercise to attempt, and I might have another go later, but right now I'm also kind of tired of hearing this piece


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## NoamL (Dec 3, 2021)

I like the Cinebrass, CSB, and Synchron demos so far!

The ones that partially used Adventure Brass are pretty good as well.

This is a hard one so respect to everyone who threw their hat in the ring!

I think just to be brutally honest none of the demos are even getting really close to the original recording so what matters the most in these comparisons is if the samples have the right musicality and assertive, fanfare attitude, enough to overlook the sample linking problems (especially for the trumpets).

Cinebrass in particular has a lot of limitations from the performance/realism angle, but the sound is musical and authentic and just "sounds like Hollywood." If the point of a mockup is ultimately to convince a director that this will work out okay live, then I think Cinebrass is the best tool to use here.

if the goal is pure realism, like if you wanted this demo to just be the final music deliverable for an in-the-box score (which... man... that is ambitious for samples) then I just have to give it to @Dan 's Synchron demo. REALLY surprised me because I never liked any demos of Synchron Brass so far. Would love to learn more about how you're choosing & switching articulations.

Just wanted to point out that everyone should listen carefully to the original recording. Some mockups have the brass at fortissimo or above, which sounds impressive, but the original recording is just assertive playing, a forte or maybe even a little bit below at the beginning. It's not very fair to the realistic demos when they get blown out of the water because other demos are not matching the recording & just maxing out CC1. And same with some examples here that are "mastered" *18dB* louder than the original recording!!

Loud sounds good but the challenge is that sample linking & artic switching!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 3, 2021)

scherzo said:


> I'm still a Kontakt luddite, and probably will be for the foreseeable future. I would actually love to leave the Capsule platform behind, but I don't think Sine is quite ready for prime time yet - and, annoyingly, it's still lacking some features that I've grown to depend on (like CC control over mics etc). I'll check in on it again next year though
> 
> 
> I almost always use the individual players. It's just Trumpets 1 & 2 and Horns 2 & 4 in the first part, and the third trumpet and two remaining horns (and trombones and tuba of course) join in the second part. I only used the single articulation patches, all spread out across separate tracks - that way I can easily layer articulations with separate timing, velocity and controller data, which I think is often essential to getting the most out of this and other libraries. It can be quite labor intensive though.
> ...


Honestly, I wish I had chosen to be a Kontakt luddite for now instead of a new SINE adopter.

Very cool that you split the MIDI up across the individual players. Did you use the repetition 16ths articulation for the 32nd notes? The end of those seem crisper than what I was able to achieve in SINE with the ensemble patch. I am still unconvinced on the one track per articulation approach (given how well Cubase expression maps work), but I appreciate your stance 

Yeah, MSB I think got an unfair rep on this forum (largely due to 1 or 2 posts), but from what I've seen so far (and being a fan of MSS), I think it is one of the most powerful brass libraries out there and I personally like the tone - but it may need some thickening up / layering in parts.

I want to share Hollywood Brass OPUS and MSB renditions this weekend, but then I think mixing and matching libraries is the next step (and a great skill to learn). Luckily, I love this piece and haven't tired of it yet!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 3, 2021)

NoamL said:


> I like the Cinebrass, CSB, and Synchron demos so far!
> 
> The ones that partially used Adventure Brass are pretty good as well.
> 
> ...


Thank you for chiming in (and taking the time to listen)! Your tips and advice are most welcome (your thread a few years ago on CSS was absolutely invaluable https://vi-control.net/community/threads/css-elgar-magic.55684/#post-3988968).


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## racerx (Dec 3, 2021)

I just added more of everything in v2 of JXL. When I hear the fanfare I think of countless commercial breaks on NBC and to me, it's played a bit hot. That could just be my ears too.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 3, 2021)

racerx said:


> I just added more of everything in v2 of JXL. When I hear the fanfare I think of countless commercial breaks on NBC and to me, it's played a bit hot. That could just be my ears too.


Glad you're continuing to refine it! The ending note of the opening motif has a starkly different dynamic than the rest of the phrase - was that intentional?


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## racerx (Dec 3, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Glad you're continuing to refine it! The ending note of the opening motif has a starkly different dynamic than the rest of the phrase - was that intentional?


lol...after layering some additional instruments I did play with the note velocities of the last two notes of the trombone section. I was going by ear from what I remembered. It's very likely that I don't remember that part well enough.


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## dhmusic (Dec 3, 2021)

NoamL said:


> Just wanted to point out that everyone should listen carefully to the original recording.


I listened to about 15 seconds on my phone do you think that was enough


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## timbit2006 (Dec 4, 2021)

Rob said:


> Thank you ALittleNightMusic for the thread, fun and useful... here's a try with Wallander's Wivi:
> 
> 
> View attachment BrassTest-Wivi.mp3







I've been trying to figure out how to get WIVI for a while now, do you have any idea where it can be bought now if it can even be bought?


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## Rob (Dec 4, 2021)

I'm afraid it can't... @Wallander is a member here, so he may comment on this...


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## shawnsingh (Dec 4, 2021)

One of the most common problems that itches me is when release samples of sustain articulations overlap the next note, which is clearly not natural and ruins the enjoyment for me. I think this happens often when we try to do faster things with articulations that were scripted to work at slower speeds, like legato and sustain.

One suggestion I have is to seriously consider using "articulation substitutions", i.e. they might be the wrong articulation strictly according to the score, but they match the intended performance far better, or they help workaround limitations of the samples. 

Every library is different in this regard, so it's unavoidably some trial and error, but some examples would be:

Using staccato or short portato instead of a brief sustained note that occurs between breaths
Using staccato for the last note in a slurred group of notes, when that last note needs to be released quickly
Using sfz, fortepiano, or marcato instead of sustain when the performer would have a bouncy or accented character to the sound
Believe it it not, staccato might sometimes work in place of fast legato, for small 3-4 note runs, for trumpets and brass. In pops and jazz, I think brass players especially trumpets often articulate their fast legato in a way that actually kind of separates each note, and that's usually not the style of legato that is sampled. For just 3-4 fast notes, staccato can sometimes provide just the right illusion of pops/jazz style articulated fast legato.
I'm sure there's a lot of other examples depending on the library. 
Like Stevie suggested earlier, don't forget to experiment with drastic CC curves, too, as another way to shape more articulations from fewer samples.


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## Trash Panda (Dec 4, 2021)

The most challenging part I’m finding about this piece is getting that bright sound with a soft attack. Infinite can do that no problem, but it’s requiring some tricky layering to get the effect with traditional samples.


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## scherzo (Dec 4, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Very cool that you split the MIDI up across the individual players. Did you use the repetition 16ths articulation for the 32nd notes? The end of those seem crisper than what I was able to achieve in SINE with the ensemble patch. I am still unconvinced on the one track per articulation approach (given how well Cubase expression maps work), but I appreciate your stance


Yes, those are the Repetitions 16ths patches (set to x2 speed). The note that immediately follows is either a lone staccatissimo, or staccato (for the attack pop) layered with marcato short (for length). Those three articulations - repetitions, staccato, marcato - are all slightly overlapping and with different CC curves. I had to lower CC11 a bit on the staccato to better match the volume of the repetition, and since they're all on different tracks that's easy to do without also fading out the reverb tail of the preceding note. This is why I like separate tracks  not ideal from a housekeeping perspective exactly, but it makes solving problems like this easier. Although it's still not as smooth and connected as I would like. 

The impossible second part is a combination of marcatos and staccatos and playable runs. I couldn't really get the legato patches to work right at this tempo, so compromises had to be made. Still not really happy with it, and maybe there's a better solution.

I kinda wanna have another go at this later if I have time. This piece got under my skin.



ALittleNightMusic said:


> Yeah, MSB I think got an unfair rep on this forum (largely due to 1 or 2 posts), but from what I've seen so far (and being a fan of MSS), I think it is one of the most powerful brass libraries out there and I personally like the tone - but it may need some thickening up / layering in parts.


Would love to hear what you come up with with MSB, or if you have any tips on how to get a better sound or performance out of it. I will say though that I quite like the tone of the horns and tuba.

^^ also excellent observations and tips from Noam and Shawn above.


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## dhmusic (Dec 4, 2021)

scherzo said:


> I kinda wanna have another go at this later if I have time. This piece got under my skin.


Nice, I'll probably do the same. I'm gonna give the SINE version a shot and actually go for the reference this time.


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## Steve Hicks (Dec 4, 2021)

I know this is very slightly off topic but having had a go at 1984 I thought I'd try 1996. Thought people might like a listen to Synchron brass trying even more notes 

I'll move it to a diff thread if this is annoying
View attachment Summon the heroes .mp3


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 4, 2021)

Steve Hicks said:


> I know this is very slightly off topic but having had a go at 1984 I thought I'd try 1996. Thought people might like a listen to Synchron brass trying even more notes
> 
> I'll move it to a diff thread if this is annoying


Can you share the standard unedited MIDI file so other folks can have a go as well?


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## Steve Hicks (Dec 5, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Can you share the standard unedited MIDI file so other folks can have a go as well?


I played it in from the score, sorry.


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## RogiervG (Dec 5, 2021)

timbit2006 said:


> I've been trying to figure out how to get WIVI for a while now, do you have any idea where it can be bought now if it can even be bought?







__





| bestservice.com







www.bestservice.com




it's the band edition.. it has brass... not sure how good this one is, compared to the other wivi (that is not available anymore: the non "band" version)


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## duringtheafter (Dec 5, 2021)

This thread has been fascinating! I've caught up listening to all the demos over the past few days - curious to try my hand in a couple weeks when I have some days off.

I noticed the original posted mp3 was a different version than I'm used to. Attached is the "By Request" version which has a bit more definition and punch overall. Also posting the relevant score snippet for folks who feel that can help guide them.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 5, 2021)

duringtheafter said:


> This thread has been fascinating! I've caught up listening to all the demos over the past few days - curious to try my hand in a couple weeks when I have some days off.
> 
> I noticed the original posted mp3 was a different version than I'm used to. Attached is the "By Request" version which has a bit more definition and punch overall. Also posting the relevant score snippet for folks who feel that can help guide them.


Great to have another reference recording - thanks for sharing!


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## racerx (Dec 5, 2021)

duringtheafter said:


> This thread has been fascinating! I've caught up listening to all the demos over the past few days - curious to try my hand in a couple weeks when I have some days off.
> 
> I noticed the original posted mp3 was a different version than I'm used to. Attached is the "By Request" version which has a bit more definition and punch overall. Also posting the relevant score snippet for folks who feel that can help guide them.


This is how I remember the fanfare. Thanks for the post


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## Rob (Dec 5, 2021)

duringtheafter said:


> This thread has been fascinating! I've caught up listening to all the demos over the past few days - curious to try my hand in a couple weeks when I have some days off.
> 
> I noticed the original posted mp3 was a different version than I'm used to. Attached is the "By Request" version which has a bit more definition and punch overall. Also posting the relevant score snippet for folks who feel that can help guide them.


thanks for the score, much clearer!


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 5, 2021)

duringtheafter said:


> This thread has been fascinating! I've caught up listening to all the demos over the past few days - curious to try my hand in a couple weeks when I have some days off.
> 
> I noticed the original posted mp3 was a different version than I'm used to. Attached is the "By Request" version which has a bit more definition and punch overall. Also posting the relevant score snippet for folks who feel that can help guide them.


Thank you for sharing the score. This will help a lot!


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## timbit2006 (Dec 5, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Unfortunately it seems it's missing a lot of the features that make WIVI Physical modelling so great. I wonder if they offer resales on their licenses, maybe the WIVI stuff will be worth more used than the original price since it's now rare.
@Rob's demo is seriously impressive, that's on a similar level as Samplemodeling Brass.


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## Norrland Samples (Dec 7, 2021)

**Don't know if this is considered marketing or something. It's a free product after all, as well as our only product. (for now at least..) But please remove this if inappropriate!**

I was kind of hoping someone here would consider giving our Solo Trumpet a go for the trumpet parts, but since no one has done it so far, I did it myself.  Since the instrument is not a a2/a3 instrument, I doubled up the 1st part with the classic sample-transposing-trick, together with some track delay.. and some other stuff. The 2nd and, for a few notes, 3rd part are just normal instances of the patch.

Hope you like it! This really felt like a pretty tricky piece to program. A good exercise for sure!

/Viktor Lindholm
Norrland Samples


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## José Herring (Dec 7, 2021)

duringtheafter said:


> This thread has been fascinating! I've caught up listening to all the demos over the past few days - curious to try my hand in a couple weeks when I have some days off.
> 
> I noticed the original posted mp3 was a different version than I'm used to. Attached is the "By Request" version which has a bit more definition and punch overall. Also posting the relevant score snippet for folks who feel that can help guide them.


Thanks for the score. The phrasing makes total sense now.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 7, 2021)

Norrland Samples said:


> **Don't know if this is considered marketing or something. It's a free product after all, as well as our only product. (for now at least..) But please remove this if inappropriate!**
> 
> I was kind of hoping someone here would consider giving our Solo Trumpet a go for the trumpet parts, but since no one has done it so far, I did it myself.  Since the instrument is not a a2/a3 instrument, I doubled up the 1st part with the classic sample-transposing-trick, together with some track delay.. and some other stuff. The 2nd and, for a few notes, 3rd part are just normal instances of the patch.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing! Quite an agile trumpet!


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## Soundbed (Dec 8, 2021)

duringtheafter said:


> This thread has been fascinating! I've caught up listening to all the demos over the past few days - curious to try my hand in a couple weeks when I have some days off.
> 
> I noticed the original posted mp3 was a different version than I'm used to. Attached is the "By Request" version which has a bit more definition and punch overall. Also posting the relevant score snippet for folks who feel that can help guide them.


This reference sounds a bit more like my memory, thanks!



Norrland Samples said:


> **Don't know if this is considered marketing or something. It's a free product after all, as well as our only product. (for now at least..) But please remove this if inappropriate!**
> 
> I was kind of hoping someone here would consider giving our Solo Trumpet a go for the trumpet parts, but since no one has done it so far, I did it myself.  Since the instrument is not a a2/a3 instrument, I doubled up the 1st part with the classic sample-transposing-trick, together with some track delay.. and some other stuff. The 2nd and, for a few notes, 3rd part are just normal instances of the patch.
> 
> ...


It was the first trumpet I tried! I saw how much work it would take to finish though and haven’t posted yet. Sounds good! Especially for free!!


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## mgaewsj (Dec 8, 2021)

I gave this a try with Century Brass (first time I use this library - I am noob btw )


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 8, 2021)

mgaewsj said:


> I gave this a try with Century Brass (first time I use this library - I am noob btw )


Thanks for sharing! How are you liking Century Brass? How did you find the programming of it to be?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 8, 2021)

Surprised nobody has posted a version with Hollywood Brass (OPUS), so here's my take on it.

OPUS is a great sample player, but I do wish there was a way to lock round robins somehow (maybe there is?). The repetition samples were unusable for me (I think they sound really strange...like broken?), so I relied on staccatissimo double tongue, but not every round robin gave me the tightness I was looking for.


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## mgaewsj (Dec 8, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Thanks for sharing! How are you liking Century Brass? How did you find the programming of it to be?


I got it recently (with a super discounted opportunity btw) and this is the first time I use it, so I am not too familiar with it yet. This is probably not the easiest challenge to start with, at least for me  so I am sure some more expert hands could do much better.

In the example I posted above Century Brass sounds a bit thin to my ears, and the final chords also sound a bit synthy to me, but again it's probably my fault. I had to move repetitions (double tongue) slightly ahead to have them finish on time, and you can likely hear it. I had to do some layering, but this is true also for CineBrass that I have just tried now for comparison 

Perhaps I could try this with BBCSO Pro as well (I know, I know its limitations )


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## Jacob Fanto (Dec 9, 2021)

Woke up a little too early this morning, but saw this thread and wanted to give it a go. Like many, I struggled. I think my shorts in the first half are too punchy but I am fairly pleased with the second half (as accompanied w/ some perc). Anyways, this was a lot of fun!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 9, 2021)

Jacob Fanto said:


> Woke up a little too early this morning, but saw this thread and wanted to give it a go. Like many, I struggled. I think my shorts in the first half are too punchy but I am fairly pleased with the second half (as accompanied w/ some perc). Anyways, this was a lot of fun!


Which library did you use?


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## Jacob Fanto (Dec 9, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Which library did you use?


A mix of Cinesamples, AROOF, Cinematic Studio Brass, and Adventure Brass.


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## duringtheafter (Dec 10, 2021)

Hope it's not cheating, but I was excited by what I got the first 2 measures to sound like with INFINITE BRASS and wanted to post.
FYI I think the midi file has some wrong notes in it - I'll try to paste a version with all cc info stripped (and put into 4 Tpt, 4 Hn, 4 Tbn + 1 Tuba format).

All feedback welcome.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 10, 2021)

duringtheafter said:


> Hope it's not cheating, but I was excited by what I got the first 2 measures to sound like with INFINITE BRASS and wanted to post.
> FYI I think the midi file has some wrong notes in it - I'll try to paste a version with all cc info stripped (and put into 4 Tpt, 4 Hn, 4 Tbn + 1 Tuba format).
> 
> All feedback welcome.


Not cheating - looking forward to hearing the rest!

The MIDI file I posted is directly from the opening of the concert score. It isn't a transcription by ear. But I might've sightread something wrong!


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## Hendrixon (Dec 10, 2021)

duringtheafter said:


> Hope it's not cheating, but I was excited by what I got the first 2 measures to sound like with INFINITE BRASS and wanted to post.
> FYI I think the midi file has some wrong notes in it - I'll try to paste a version with all cc info stripped (and put into 4 Tpt, 4 Hn, 4 Tbn + 1 Tuba format).
> 
> All feedback welcome.


First time I heard anything from "infinite" that sounds good to me.


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## duringtheafter (Dec 10, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Not cheating - looking forward to hearing the rest!
> 
> The MIDI file I posted is directly from the opening of the concert score. It isn't a transcription by ear. But I might've sightread something wrong!


No worries! It seems in the lower horn part you accidentally entered C's instead of A's (in the first measure and the 3rd measure) - see pic.


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## ned3000 (Dec 10, 2021)

shawnsingh said:


> One suggestion I have is to seriously consider using "articulation substitutions", i.e. they might be the wrong articulation strictly according to the score, but they match the intended performance far better, or they help workaround limitations of the samples.


This ^^^^

Don't feel guilty about it!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 11, 2021)

duringtheafter said:


> No worries! It seems in the lower horn part you accidentally entered C's instead of A's (in the first measure and the 3rd measure) - see pic.


Well spotted!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 11, 2021)

Threw together a version using Modern Scoring Brass. Couple of nice things I noticed with this library - one, you get 4 individual horns, trumpets, and trombones, which is exactly what the concert score calls for. Coupled with auto-divisi, it is very easy to ensure each part is played by the correct player (and not just keep stacking sections per note like you have to do in most other libraries). Secondly, the stage presets are really nice for positioning - similar to how I would use SP1200. Then throw on a tail verb. My only wish was that you could make some of the shorts even snappier (you have the tighten knob, but I wanted to get it even tighter). Otherwise, very easy library to use.


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## clisma (Dec 11, 2021)

Funny this thread popped up... I'd been working on exactly this over the course of the year to try and get proper placement and handling of SM Brass. So here's that in its current version (based on the "by popular request" recording).
View attachment 10.SME-Sp2016 & IQ-Reverb.mp3


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## Bear Market (Dec 12, 2021)

I'm late to the party, but wanted to try this out with SSB. I'm not entirely satisfied with the result, but wanted to limit myself to SSB as an exercise (well, that's not entirely true... because I ended up using Iceni for the low brass).

View attachment SSB Olympic Fanfare Intro.mp3


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## ptram (Dec 13, 2021)

I'm reading the score, and wondering how to read the harmony. It's mostly made of two-notes chords, so there is always some ambiguity in which are the chords. My guess for the first two bars is:

G-- C-d7- d7-- e-d7- | d-- C-- F---- |

In case one wants to just-tune the notes, what should be done? Leave the topmost/melody note untouched, or consider the ghost fundamental and adapt all the notes?

Or, should a fanfare be better stay in equal tuning?

As you may guess, I know nothing about brass ensemble writing.

Paolo


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## ptram (Dec 14, 2021)

I tried with VSL Synchron Brass. To the original signal I added a bit of algo reverb (MIRacle), just that bit to create a more diffuse halo without covering the natural reverb.

Limiting is just a bit (less than -1dB, with occasional overpass on peaks). There is also some saturation, adding a little grain to the final sound.

Williams, Olympic Fanfare (VSL Synchron Brass)

And this is without any additional processing, only the original mics and algo reverb included in the original presets:

Williams, Olympic Fanfare (VSL Synchron Brass, Pure)

This one is with just the Decca Tree (center channel -3dB). No added reverb. Mics and host master volume at 0dB (softer than the other examples):

Williams, Olympic Fanfare (VSL Synchron Brass, Decca Tree only)

Paolo


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## JeeTee (Dec 14, 2021)

OK - this looks like fun! Those trumpet bits are HARD work though. Blimey.
All Hollywood Brass (Diamond).


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 14, 2021)

ptram said:


> I tried with VSL Synchron Brass. To the original signal I added a bit of algo reverb (MIRacle), just that bit to create a more diffuse halo without covering the natural reverb.
> 
> Limiting is just a bit (less than -1dB, with occasional overpass on peaks). There is also some saturation, adding a little grain to the final sound.
> 
> ...


I'm going to try my hand with Synchron Brass this weekend as well. How did you like using it?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 14, 2021)

JeeTee said:


> OK - this looks like fun! Those trumpet bits are HARD work though. Blimey.
> All Hollywood Brass (Diamond).


Nice to see somebody else take a crack with Hollywood Brass (I posted my OPUS version a few pages back).


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## ptram (Dec 14, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I'm going to try my hand with Synchron Brass this weekend as well. How did you like using it?


I'm finding them easy to use. They respond well. With the help of Timbre Adjust (not used in this test*, but used elsewhere) they have a wide dynamic range. The abundance of mics makes it easy to go from very close to very far from the listener position.

The sound can be soft, singing or brassy. Staccatos can be very strong. There are several shorts, to make a gradual shift between durations. I've been finding the sound I’m after for a wide-hall library.

Paolo

(*EDIT: I revised the piece, and made subtle use of the Timbre Adjust function).


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## matthieuL (Dec 15, 2021)

ptram said:


> I tried with VSL Synchron Brass. To the original signal I added a bit of algo reverb (MIRacle), just that bit to create a more diffuse halo without covering the natural reverb.
> 
> Limiting is just a bit (less than -1dB, with occasional overpass on peaks). There is also some saturation, adding a little grain to the final sound.
> 
> ...


Hello. 
Nice ! What settings did you use ? (a mixer preset or our own ? and how much MIRacle ?) Personnaly I don't manage to have a satisfying sound from Synchron Brass, I find it too dry and thin.


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 15, 2021)

Bear Market said:


> I'm late to the party, but wanted to try this out with SSB. I'm not entirely satisfied with the result, but wanted to limit myself to SSB as an exercise (well, that's not entirely true... because I ended up using Iceni for the low brass).
> 
> View attachment SSB Olympic Fanfare Intro.mp3


That's some heavy low brass in Iceni!


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## scherzo (Dec 15, 2021)

Very nice version by JeeTee, I thought. Makes me think I need to spend more time with Hollywood Brass. Maybe even upgrade to the new player after all.

...

I had another try at this segment, this time using the version posted by duringtheafter as reference. How does this sound? I think I've lost all perspective at this point. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5dexbdujmho6juf/VI-C%20Fanfare%20SB%20v2.wav?dl=0


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## ptram (Dec 15, 2021)

matthieuL said:


> Nice ! What settings did you use ? (a mixer preset or our own ? and how much MIRacle ?)


I've used bare-bone Surround to Stereo Distant presets. Duplicated instruments (like Horns 3 and 4) have been slightly modified in panning, level and EQ.

I use MIRacle so that it doesn't cover the natural reverb, but creates that sort of 'icing' on the mix. It's usually between -10-12dB, with Length and Density depending on the music.

My guess is that a Lexicon simulation (with early reflection turned down) would fit better some types of music. But I like the Bricasti-like transparent sound of MIRacle.



matthieuL said:


> Personnaly I don't manage to have a satisfying sound from Synchron Brass, I find it too dry and thin.


I'm surprised you find them 'dry'. The room is big, and can result in a very wet sound. Even the closest mics are never 'dry'. The same for being 'thin' – I find them round and fat. Curious how we hear things in such a different way!

Paolo


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## ScoringFilm (Dec 15, 2021)

ptram said:


> I'm reading the score, and wondering how to read the harmony. It's mostly made of two-notes chords, so there is always some ambiguity in which are the chords. My guess for the first two bars is:
> 
> G-- C-d7- d7-- e-d7- | d-- C-- F---- |
> 
> ...


This is implied harmony; the open nature of the chords is very much Americana style (Copland etc). Added 6,7,9ths work very well in brass fanfare writing, I guess they emphasize the natural overtones.

The higher brass parts will naturally sound brighter and louder due to the natural dynamic curve of the instruments.

Not sure that you need to re-tune anything.


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## Hendrixon (Dec 15, 2021)

ptram said:


> Curious how we hear things in such a different way!


It depends a LOT on the monitoring system.
I have several headphones around, Beyer, AKG, Sennheiser, some other good mid price.
They are not all created equal, actually there are huge differences


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## matthieuL (Dec 15, 2021)

ptram said:


> I'm surprised you find them 'dry'. The room is big, and can result in a very wet sound. Even the closest mics are never 'dry'. The same for being 'thin' – I find them round and fat. Curious how we hear things in such a different way!
> 
> Paolo


Thanks for your settings !
Yes, comparing Tree mic of Berlin Brass and Main Mic of Synchron Brass, one could say one is wet and the other dry. Much drier at least.
The thing worrying me is that the feeling of the room and the tail are often made by the additional reverb in the presets (mute the reverb on Surround to Stereo Distant, you'll see what I mean), not by the "raw" samples.

And concerning "thin", I correct : it's essentially for the trumpets (which moreover are not well balanced imo, they lack 6db (and the Horns too) comparing to Trombones and Tuba.


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## ptram (Dec 15, 2021)

ScoringFilm said:


> This is implied harmony; the open nature of the chords is very much Americana style (Copland etc) […]


Very informative, thank you! In addition, I was looking for sources for the Americana style (or set of styles), and the suggestion to start from Copland seems right. I admit I was starting to look at it from the less experimental works of Ives, and (sorry!) Vaughan Williams, just to go back a bit further to what look to me to be the source.



ScoringFilm said:


> Not sure that you need to re-tune anything.


Uh, I did it. I'll probably have to retune all the out-of-tune notes I did!

Paolo


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## liquidlino (Feb 18, 2022)

Hmm. Well, not happy with how this turned out, but regardless. I don't have a "proper" brass library yet, so this is a bit of a frankenstein using BHCT & Forzo Essentials (ensemble). Other than my terrible programming skills, the issue I had was that the trumpet (+ xylo!) range is very narrow, and couldn't fit the full range of the trumpet lines in, so I've improvised a bit. There's just not enough articulations for shorts to choose from for this in either library.

Anyway, apologies if this is utterly awful.

EDIT: Removed for now, I need to learn something new: Transposing instruments... why oh why is the orchestral world so arcane!!! I'm a guitarist / pianist - when I play a C a C comes out.... what is with these instruments that don't play what's written????!!!!


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## Marcus Millfield (Feb 18, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Hmm. Well, not happy with how this turned out, but regardless. I don't have a "proper" brass library yet, so this is a bit of a frankenstein using BHCT & Forzo Essentials (ensemble). Other than my terrible programming skills, the issue I had was that the trumpet (+ xylo!) range is very narrow, and couldn't fit the full range of the trumpet lines in, so I've improvised a bit. There's just not enough articulations for shorts to choose from for this in either library.
> 
> Anyway, apologies if this is utterly awful.
> 
> View attachment 70965



All that and your trumpets are not playing the right notes/aren't transposed correctly and aren't balanced. Still, it's a good exercise !


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## liquidlino (Feb 18, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> All that and your trumpets are not playing the right notes/aren't transposed correctly and aren't balanced. Still, it's a good exercise !


I thought it sounded weird! I was trying to mock it up from the score posted earlier in this thread... can you point me at something that will tell me what I'm supposed to be doing to transpose instruments to the right notes from a score? This whole transposing thing has me completely flummoxed! lol


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## Marcus Millfield (Feb 18, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> I thought it sounded weird! I was trying to mock it up from the score posted earlier in this thread... can you point me at something that will tell me what I'm supposed to be doing to transpose instruments to the right notes from a score? This whole transposing thing has me completely flummoxed! lol


If I were you, I'd begin with the midi file the OP posted, split them up per instrument en take it from there. It's a good base to start from and you can quickly see what went wrong with your attempt!


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## doctoremmet (Feb 18, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> I thought it sounded weird! I was trying to mock it up from the score posted earlier in this thread... can you point me at something that will tell me what I'm supposed to be doing to transpose instruments to the right notes from a score? This whole transposing thing has me completely flummoxed! lol


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## liquidlino (Feb 18, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> If I were you, I'd begin with the midi file the OP posted, split them up per instrument en take it from there. It's a good base to start from and you can quickly see what went wrong with your attempt!


Ok, thanks good tip! Done. I think I've understood this..., just looking at first notes played here:

1. F Horn on score shows a D and A. If I understand F Horn, that means it should sound 7 semitones lower (i.e. a C plays as an F below). However, in the midi I downloaded, it has G and D, which is 5 semi tones higher (which I suppose is the same as 7 lower, but an octave higher). So I've moved the horns to 5 semi higher.

2. C Trumpet on Score shows G and D being played. Midi downloaded has... G and D being played. Which I supposed makes sense, as C Trumpet is a.. concert pitch trumpet, so it plays the notes written on the score.

Playing now, it sounds much better! And I've rebalanced, as I had turned the horns down because they sounded awful, but now they sound good!

Sound better? EDIT: Nope, it didn't sound better. Basically, aside from a couple of errors on notes, the trumpet patch in BHCT seems not to be very good. It only has one octave of range, and half the long notes have terrible phasing in them, and the tone is pretty unpleasant.

I'm going to stop trying to jam a square peg in a round hole.


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## liquidlino (Feb 18, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


>


That's gold - saved! Thanks!


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## Trash Panda (Feb 18, 2022)

The notes are still the wrong pitch. Might be easier to start with the MIDI in the OP.


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## Marcus Millfield (Feb 18, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Sound better?
> 
> View attachment 70972
> 
> ...



Most noticeable is the top trumpet:
- the first note on the second bar sounds like a B, while the score has a C. First note on the third bar sounds like a C and should be a D. Something is off there and I think that's due to transposing error. Easily fixed: just raise the notes for that instrument in the first 4 measures 1 whole tone.
- then lower the top trumpet a whole octave in the first 4 measures. It sounds an octave too high.
- try and find out why it sounds like a laser versus a musical instrument. Maybe lowering an octave will help? Try lowering the velocity of the midi notes.

The second half of the piece seems to be transposed correctly, but the shorts are too short. Listen to the mp3 the OP posted and try to find an articulation that's better suited. Stacking 2 articulations can help: stacking a short note of a long articulation (like sutain) and a short note of a short articulation (like staccato) can help you here.

Furthermore: you're missing some dynamics, especially diminuendos.

I do like the sound of the low brass.


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## oceanic714 (Feb 18, 2022)

There are some amazing mockups in this thread! I particularly like the Hollywood Brass and Berlin Brass demos that a couple of users have posted.

Here's my take with Infinite Brass. Threw it together this morning before heading to work.


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## Stevie (Feb 18, 2022)

oceanic714 said:


> There are some amazing mockups in this thread! I particularly like the Hollywood Brass and Berlin Brass demos that a couple of users have posted.
> 
> Here's my take with Infinite Brass. Threw it together this morning before heading to work.



Very good one.

On a different note:
I haven't forgotten about my examples, I'm still working on them, when I get time.
In the meanwhile I also got Century Brass and will include it, too.


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## duringtheafter (Feb 18, 2022)

oceanic714 said:


> There are some amazing mockups in this thread! I particularly like the Hollywood Brass and Berlin Brass demos that a couple of users have posted.
> 
> Here's my take with Infinite Brass. Threw it together this morning before heading to work.



Nice! How did you get those really good long low brass notes? I'm having trouble getting the 'bones and tuba to cooperate and sound good in Infinite Brass in this selection. Any cc/velocity/mixing tips welcome for those long notes!


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## Trash Panda (Feb 18, 2022)

duringtheafter said:


> Nice! How did you get those really good long low brass notes? I'm having trouble getting the 'bones and tuba to cooperate and sound good in Infinite Brass in this selection. Any cc/velocity/mixing tips welcome for those long notes!


Try using sine waves in your CC1 data on the body of the sustained notes with playable vibrato on. It triggers just enough volume and pitch waver to get rid of the “too smooth” sustain. You’ll have to play around to find the right frequency and peak size but it’s a game changer once you dial it in. Even better effect if it’s different for each instrument in the ensemble.


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## oceanic714 (Feb 18, 2022)

duringtheafter said:


> Nice! How did you get those really good long low brass notes? I'm having trouble getting the 'bones and tuba to cooperate and sound good in Infinite Brass in this selection. Any cc/velocity/mixing tips welcome for those long notes!





Trash Panda said:


> Try using sine waves in your CC1 data on the body of the sustained notes with playable vibrato on. It triggers just enough volume and pitch waver to get rid of the “too smooth” sustain. You’ll have to play around to find the right frequency and peak size but it’s a game changer once you dial it in. Even better effect if it’s different for each instrument in the ensemble.


Trash Panda pretty much nailed it. I treat EVERY track as if it's a real performer with real character and human limitations. For the low brass, each sustain has an attack followed by a slight decay to emulate a brass musician running out of air. This is what my CC data looks like for those long notes. The only thing I don't have in this demo is vibrato, I try to save that for slower pieces.


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## ltmusic (Feb 18, 2022)

oceanic714 said:


> Trash Panda pretty much nailed it. I treat EVERY track as if it's a real performer with real character and human limitations. For the low brass, each sustain has an attack followed by a slight decay to emulate a brass musician running out of air. This is what my CC data looks like for those long notes. The only thing I don't have in this demo is vibrato, I try to save that for slower pieces.


It's impressive! Is it easier with IB comparing to conventional sample libraries?


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## shawnsingh (Feb 18, 2022)

ltmusic said:


> It's impressive! Is it easier with IB comparing to conventional sample libraries?


Well I know this question wasn't for me, but if I could jump in... "easier" has to be in context of "getting a good quality result". It doesn't matter if it's as easy as an old 90's arranger keyboard if it sounds like an old 90's arranger keyboard...  

With conventional keyswitching libraries, there's simply never enough variety in shorts durations and attack styles. Even as only a hobbyist, I can't count the number of times I've felt that short articulations were either too staccatissimo or too portato for a particular passage, and there was nothing in between with the right attack and release sound. Or how many times I've felt that accent and marcato articulations were sounded amazing, but just didn't have the correct balance between immediate attack and round attack for a specific part, making the performance sound quite obviously unnatural.

So while trying to get that higher level of expressiveness and natural sound, yes IB is quite easy. With just note velocity, note duration, and one or two CC's, it's possible to sculpt a large variety of attacks, and to develop the sustain tone however you want. There are certainly some character nuances and playing styles that IB doesn't have, but I feel that IB has prioritized very well about "what's really important" to keep a good sound - and the ability to sculpt attacks and sustains is one of those black-sheep important things which we have forgotten in the keyswitching world.


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## Trash Panda (Feb 18, 2022)

ltmusic said:


> It's impressive! Is it easier with IB comparing to conventional sample libraries?


In regards to getting a bright sound with rounded attacks, such as in this example, one might say it’s…infinitely…easier. I’ll see myself out.


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## ltmusic (Feb 19, 2022)

shawnsingh said:


> Well I know this question wasn't for me, but if I could jump in... "easier" has to be in context of "getting a good quality result". It doesn't matter if it's as easy as an old 90's arranger keyboard if it sounds like an old 90's arranger keyboard...
> 
> With conventional keyswitching libraries, there's simply never enough variety in shorts durations and attack styles. Even as only a hobbyist, I can't count the number of times I've felt that short articulations were either too staccatissimo or too portato for a particular passage, and there was nothing in between with the right attack and release sound. Or how many times I've felt that accent and marcato articulations were sounded amazing, but just didn't have the correct balance between immediate attack and round attack for a specific part, making the performance sound quite obviously unnatural.
> 
> So while trying to get that higher level of expressiveness and natural sound, yes IB is quite easy. With just note velocity, note duration, and one or two CC's, it's possible to sculpt a large variety of attacks, and to develop the sustain tone however you want. There are certainly some character nuances and playing styles that IB doesn't have, but I feel that IB has prioritized very well about "what's really important" to keep a good sound - and the ability to sculpt attacks and sustains is one of those black-sheep important things which we have forgotten in the keyswitching world.


Thanks for your detailed answer! 
I have Hollywood brass. Ideally I am searching for a library that I can perform live all parts without key switches ... Maybe I should try IB. 

Thanks again!


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## oceanic714 (Feb 19, 2022)

ltmusic said:


> It's impressive! Is it easier with IB comparing to conventional sample libraries?


I like to use an art analogy to compare Infinite Brass with other libraries.

Writing with Hollywood Brass (which is great) is like painting with stencils. Everything is pre-shaped, which is easier to use but limits the final product to only those baked-in articulations/note lengths/etc.

Writing with Infinite is like using a paint brush with a blank canvas. It takes more finesse, but the end product is truly limitless. Both are great in the hands of a capable programmer, but Infinite is far more versatile.


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## ryans (Feb 19, 2022)

I just spent the last 2 hours attempting this and it sounds like absolute shit.

This piece is exceptionally good at revealing how much samples suck.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Feb 19, 2022)

ryans said:


> I just spent the last 2 hours attempting this and it sounds like absolute shit.
> 
> This piece is exceptionally good at revealing how much samples suck.


Sort of the point of a “challenge”  Which libraries did you try with?


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## liquidlino (Feb 19, 2022)

ryans said:


> I just spent the last 2 hours attempting this and it sounds like absolute shit.
> 
> This piece is exceptionally good at revealing how much samples suck.


Lol. Exactly what happened with my attempt. It seems so simple on the face of it, it's deceptive. That plus my cack handedness at transcribing score into the DAW.


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## Marcus Millfield (Feb 22, 2022)

Off-topic a bit, but still: new Charles Cornell video about this piece.


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## jononotbono (Feb 22, 2022)

Such a great thread. Totally missed this one. WTF is Stevie's one?


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## Stevie (Feb 22, 2022)

I've been asking myself the exact same thing 🤣
I hope I can work on it further, tomorrow.


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## Marcus Millfield (Feb 22, 2022)

Stevie said:


> I've been asking myself the exact same thing 🤣
> I hope I can work on it further, tomorrow.


Still waiting for that masterpiece


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## ryans (Mar 3, 2022)

Had some free time this evening so I had a quick go at this again. This time using Angry Brass and Sample Modeling. Yet again turned out to be mostly trash, so I quit.. but here's the rough mix.


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## Rob (Mar 4, 2022)

ryans said:


> Had some free time this evening so I had a quick go at this again. This time using Angry Brass and Sample Modeling. Yet again turned out to be mostly trash, so I quit.. but here's the rough mix.


this one sounds pretty good to me...


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## ryans (Mar 4, 2022)

Rob said:


> this one sounds pretty good to me...


Well, this is an amazing compliment coming from you, thank you Rob. Maybe I'll keep working on this.


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## ImJim (Mar 5, 2022)

ryans said:


> I just spent the last 2 hours attempting this and it sounds like absolute shit.
> 
> This piece is exceptionally good at revealing how much samples suck.


It's probably not only the samples fault


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## bFooz (Mar 5, 2022)

Here is my try on this. All brass is Sample Modeling.

Brass only
View attachment Williams-OlympicFanfare_BrassOnly.mp3


Brass+Perc+Strings
View attachment Williams-OlympicFanfare_Full.mp3


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## Marcus Millfield (Mar 5, 2022)

I tried again too. I'm rubbish at mixing.

View attachment Olympic Fanfare v4.mp3


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## ryans (Mar 5, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> I tried again too. I'm rubbish at mixing.
> 
> View attachment Olympic Fanfare v4.mp3


Check your horn parts sounds like they got transposed?


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## Marcus Millfield (Mar 5, 2022)

ryans said:


> Check your horn parts sounds like they got transposed?


I don't think so, but I'll check anyway, thanks!

I do think I forgot my tempo map in this version. That what you get for building a new template 🤦🏻‍♂️


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## fakemaxwell (Mar 6, 2022)

I didn't see an Audio Modeling version yet, so figured I'd try my hand-


View attachment AudioModeling_OlympicFanfare.mp3


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## David Enos (Nov 26, 2022)

Jacob Fanto said:


> A mix of Cinesamples, AROOF, Cinematic Studio Brass, and Adventure Brass.


What is AROOF?


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## Marsen (Nov 26, 2022)

David Enos said:


> What is AROOF?


Abey Road One Orchestral Foundation


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## David Enos (Nov 26, 2022)

Marsen said:


> Abey Road One Orchestral Foundation


Ah, didn't know the acronym. I own it lol


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## David Enos (Nov 30, 2022)

Rob said:


> I'm afraid it can't... @Wallander is a member here, so he may comment on this...


Is this it? https://www.totmusicstudio.net/prod...estral-band-brass?_pos=1&_sid=9fe5830e8&_ss=r


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## SammyBrown (Dec 10, 2022)

My crack at it with century brass

The inconsistencies of articulations between instruments was particularly annoying here, but i think it came together pretty well

View attachment JW Olympics.mp3


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