# Sample Modeling - Reverb



## iaink (May 11, 2014)

Hello,

I've done this piece using the SM Trumpets and Horns. I'm wondering if I have gone too far with the ambience and reverb?

I'm using B2 for early reflections and also B2 as a send for the tail.

The intent was to have the brass sound further back.

[flash width=500 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F148608157&secret_url=false[/flash]

Opinions appreciated. Thanks,


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## PerryD (May 11, 2014)

Nice Work! The horns & trumpets could be warmed up a bit IMHO. Perhaps a little roll off of the high-mids with EQ?
-Perry-


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## iaink (May 11, 2014)

Thanks for the input, Perry. I was worried about that and I had been trying to selectively tame the high frequencies.


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## Mahlon (May 11, 2014)

Dangit, you guys stop writing such good music. You're making me nervous.


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## Ginharbringer (May 11, 2014)

The piece is nice. As for the SM brass, it sounds too muffled, for lack of a better word. The SM brass seems to have lost its beauty here, perhaps CC11 is being pushed too hard (for example, the first horn lick- transitions too hard; the trumpet lick near the beginning), which makes the brass loud and bright, and you are pushing them back in volume to compensate. Actually even in a real orchestra, the trumpets playing at that dynamic would overpower the strings.

Be careful what you cut. You seem to have cut most of the midrange freq from the brass, which leaves them sounding thin. I find that the brass lines in professionally done music are very even across the frequency spectrum. You might try layering those brass lines with some other samples that have more room ambiance, this will give you some warmth back.

In this style of writing, I think the actual sound and timbre of the instruments has to be beautiful for the music to be successful. I mean, the lines you have written are beautiful, but the timbre of the instruments playing them are not. SM instruments pushed back in the orchestra with a lot of reverb can be considered "natural", or "realistic", but it will be difficult to make them "beautiful" by themselves.


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## TGV (May 12, 2014)

The brass (opening horns, trumpets) doesn't sound muffled, it sounds phase-y. You might have overlaid two identical patches, or the early reflections come too early. Nice track, BTW! Very nice uplifting feel.


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## iaink (May 12, 2014)

Thanks for the input guys, much appreciated.

For reference, here is just the SM brass with no EQ and the reverb turned down about a third (both early and tail):

[flash width=500 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F149140775&secret_url=false[/flash]

The opening lines, CC11 for horns and trumpets ranges between 50 and 115. For orchestra, I would write them out at at least f, with the intent to be on top of everyone.

I was using an EQ which was bringing down some of the mid-range ~3 dB or so.

TGV, the large passages are 3 horns and 2 trumpets in unison (with the 3rd trumpet usually in harmony). Each is placed differently and I use slightly different CC data for each… but we should be able to do this with SM without phasing?

Thanks for again for the input. When I listen to this naked file, the original mix really starts to sound very shrill in comparison – especially the trumpets.

Cheers.


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## iaink (May 12, 2014)

Mahlon @ Sun May 11 said:


> Dangit, you guys stop writing such good music. You're making me nervous.


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## rayinstirling (May 12, 2014)

iaink @ Mon May 12 said:


> When I listen to this naked file, the original mix really starts to sound very shrill in comparison – especially the trumpets.
> 
> Cheers.



Good, now you can answer and address your own questions with your own remedy.
God knows how often I've gone through the same process of starting too hot and having no where to go except the brick wall.


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## Ginharbringer (May 12, 2014)

TGV @ Mon May 12 said:


> The brass (opening horns, trumpets) doesn't sound muffled, it sounds phase-y.



Yes, phase-y! that's it. I can't wait for the horns / trumpets update which will hopefully help with phasing. In the meantime, you can also transpose the instruments in kontakt a half step up and a half step down (adjusting the midi to compensate).. that _may_ help


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## Hannes_F (May 12, 2014)

Ian - very good work!

Regarding the trumpet tone I too think that you might have gone overboard with too high cc's. For a slight adjustion watching these videos of super orchestra players could perhaps be of help. Notice how deep and warm their tone is at times when listened to in isolation and close. Also Rod Franks explains a lot about blending and balance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BnIOaBsfrY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6usP-XNYTDo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcATpZzMA1Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwqUQJUWRfI


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## Mahlon (May 12, 2014)

Hannes, thanks for pointing these links out. Valuable resource that I didn't know about.

Mahlon


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## ryans (May 13, 2014)

iaink @ Mon May 12 said:


> For reference, here is just the SM brass with no EQ and the reverb turned down about a third (both early and tail):
> 
> [flash width=500 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F149140775&secret_url=false[/flash]



As others have mentioned.. I'm hearing a lot of phase cancellation going on.

Try altering the midi cc of the unison parts (more than you already have)... Detuning helps.

Using a different ER for each part is usually a good remedy. 

You can also try a high pass filter on doubling parts to minimize the proximity effect...

Really like the piece 

Ryan


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## iaink (May 14, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Mon May 12 said:


> Ian - very good work!
> 
> Regarding the trumpet tone I too think that you might have gone overboard with too high cc's. For a slight adjustion watching these videos of super orchestra players could perhaps be of help. Notice how deep and warm their tone is at times when listened to in isolation and close. Also Rod Franks explains a lot about blending and balance:
> 
> ...



Thanks Hannes - I'm not a brass player, so it's always helpful to see this sort of thing. The f or ff tone in the third video is what I'm after.

Cheers,


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