# Orchestral Woodwinds Panning (MIDI)



## Mundano (Jun 27, 2016)

Hello dear musicians and recording artists,

i have searched the forum for *specific* Woodwind's positioning in the mix, but i have found small to none information. Beside plugins like _Altiverb_, _Vienna MIR PRO_ or _Virtual Sound_ _Stage_ help, beside Virtual Instruments Libraries rooms and mic positioning, and beside the different sizes of the symphonic orchestra + the syles (music historic moments) and composers*, *my question is which standard numerical values are there for woodwinds mixing? *or how do you mix them guys/gals?

here some orchestral seating plans, but with variations, therefore is my question:

*...somehow typical...*





*...piccolos left side extended...*





*...bass clarinet far left and english horns far right added, piccolos to right side...*





*...bass clarinet center-right, contrabasoon far right, piccolos center...*





*** http://andrewhugill.com/manuals/seating.html


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## pkm (Jun 27, 2016)

Forget numbers. Reference a recording you like and use your ears.


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## JJP (Jun 27, 2016)

There are no specific numbers. The actual pan may depend on the size of the stage, mic position (close or mic'd out in the house), and a whole host of other factors.


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## Mundano (Jun 27, 2016)

there is a little hint at 20'15''


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## muk (Jun 28, 2016)

There are no standard values, as there are no exact seating positions in the orchestra. It very much depends on the size of the orchestra, the music, the conductors ideas, pragmatic reasons (the bassoons sat directly in front of the trumpets yesterday, so lets give them a break today...). If there are more string players, the woodwinds will be further back. The seating is variable, and you probably want to reflect that in your mixing.
The most common seating is flutes center left, oboes center right. Directly behind them clarinets center left, bassoons center right. Also, in real world situations the the woodwinds are seated together usually. That's important for intonation.
As for the piccolo sometimes being seated in the center, sometimes at the outside of the flute section: that depends on the part it has to play, and on taste. Most often the principal players are seated together. Sometimes they have to play together solistically, which is easier if they are seated together. So, going from left to right, a standard seating would be: flute 2, flute 1, oboe 1, oboe 2. Behind them clarinet 2, clarinet 1, bassoon 1, basoon 2. That way the principal players are all seated close together. Sometimes the piccolo and the bass clarinet play important roles in a woodwind choir, in which case they might be seated in the center. But the more standard placement is at the outside of their section. 

Long story short: no hard set rules. A good way to work is creating a standard template (or several for different orchestral sizes), and then adjusting from there for each individual piece you are working on.


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## Saxer (Jun 28, 2016)

Mostly the pan information disappears the more room information is added. In Spitfire libraries you can hear clear left/right panning in the close mics but the decca and ambient mics sound all more or less centered with a big stereo hall cloud around. So numeric values for panning are useless as they change with the room.
But 'recorded in position' ensemble libraries give a good example. Spitfire Albion or Symphobia are good role models. I often use them for orientation. Listening an comparing.


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## pmcrockett (Jun 29, 2016)

Saxer said:


> Mostly the pan information disappears the more room information is added. In Spitfire libraries you can hear clear left/right panning in the close mics but the decca and ambient mics sound all more or less centered with a big stereo hall cloud around. So numeric values for panning are useless as they change with the room.
> But 'recorded in position' ensemble libraries give a good example. Spitfire Albion or Symphobia are good role models. I often use them for orientation. Listening an comparing.


This is the same thing I encountered when building SPAT presets to imitate the EWQL Hollywood series. It was the first time I'd done any really focused comparisons of the libraries' individual mic positions, and I was astonished by just how much variance there was in the panning -- in some cases ranging from basically centered to almost hard-panned. That experience has helped me be a lot less uptight about the specifics of pan values.


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## Mundano (Jun 29, 2016)

from <http://www.audiorecording.me/symphony-orchestra-panning-and-reverb-settings.html>
(nobody has to agree with this, is only information and an article about it...)

*Symphony Orchestra Panning and Reverb Settings*


By Emerson Maningo on July 9, 2011

Categories: Music Mixing.
Tags: Classical music production techniques, Using reverb effects in mixing.

Most orchestra music are produced live where actual musicians are playing together and miked all the way to an audio mixer and recording equipment. These live recordings are already pre-adjusted and mixed by an audio mixer in the orchestra before it will be recorded. This is the traditional way of producing orchestra music and it can be expensive since you will be hiring an orchestra to perform the music.

One great alternative is to produce the orchestra music entirely using a music notation software such as Notion 3. Assuming you have great musical skills and you have a complete music sheet of the project, you can actually create a sound recording. Of course since everything is done using a software, you will be needing to assign a reverb and panning settings to the musical instruments in the mix.

This tutorial will help you assign a reverb and panning settings to your software-produced orchestra music. The primary objective is to produce a realistic symphony orchestra music production. To get started; look at the panning chart below:




panning settings for symphony orchestra

Refer to the panning chart, the center of the orchestra is panned at 0. This is the center of the stereo mix. This corresponds to 0 in your audio mixer panning setting. For example the instrument that is found in center is the viola. But viola instruments can span from -12.5 to +12.5 because there are so many violas in the actual orchestra.

Farther to the right:

Slightly off-center to the right:
a.) oboe= +12.5
b.) bassoon = +12.5 to +25
c.) trombone =+12.5
d.) vibraphone = +12.5

At +25:
1. tuba

At +37.5:
1.) cymbals

At +50 to +100:
1.) double basses

At +25 to +62.5:
1.) cellos

Farther to the left:

Slightly off-center to the left at -12.5:
a.) clarinet
b.) trumpet
c.) bass drum

French horn at -25
Harp at -37.5
Piano at -62.5

First Violins at -25 to -100
Second Violins at -25 to -75

If your audio mixer setting is not using the scale of 0 to 100, but in terms of 0 to 1. Then +50 means 0.5 or 30 means 0.3. In terms of percentage, -75 means -75%, +12.5 means +12.5%.

For the reverb settings, since they are all inside in the same concert hall, the same reverberation affects all instruments. However, instruments on the front are sound “drier” than those in the back. For example, since the first violins are in the front of the mix; they sound much “drier” than the second violins which are placed at the back. The second violins have much more reverb content than the first violin.

The trumpets, tuba, french horn, cymbals and trombone are placed way farther back and will have more reverb content. To assign reverb settings for different instruments. The following are suggested:
1.) For all instruments use a single reverb preset like concert hall.
2.) However assign a different dry to wet ratio for reverb for each instruments based on their location in the orchestra. Then for the dry to wet % ratio for reverb, you can look at the chart below:




orchestra reverb settings

The dry to wet ratio can be used to make instruments appear “in-front” or “at the back of the orchestra”. The instruments at the front sounds drier (80% dry and 20% wet) than at the back (20% dry and 80% wet). If you are mixing, the percentage can change so that it will sound perfectly for your mix. For example if you think 80% dry , 20% wet is too dry, you can start at a much lower like 60% dry 40% wet at the front and 10% dry 90% wet at the back. Then the rest will follow:

Level 1 (Front)= 60% dry, 40% wet
Level 2 = 47.5% dry, 52.5% wet
Level 3= 35% dry, 65% wet
Level 4 = 22.5% dry, 77.5% wet
Level 5 = 10% dry, 90% wet

Looking at the chart, the first violin can be assigned with 80% dry and 20% reverb while the second violins will have 65% dry and 35% reverb. Far in the back like trumpet and piano will have 35% dry and 65% reverb.

As a summary, a wise combination of panning and reverb can make your mix sounds like they are in recorded live in a real symphony orchestra.

_Content last updated on June 20, 2012_


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## JohnG (Jun 29, 2016)

dude -- no mixer mixes like this. If you have never done it before, I still wouldn't take this meter-head approach. This conceptually assumes there is a right answer -- there isn't.


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## Mundano (Jun 29, 2016)

from <http://tweakheadz.com/pan-control/>

*"Panning the Orchestra*

(...)
Note that the woodwinds, perhaps the most melodic of the orchestra, are centered. As you go to the right, the sound goes from soft to hard, from sweetness to bratty trumpets and tubby tubas. As you go left, it gets more delicate, with soft horns, piano or harp. In the back, you have your short and louds, like Piatti (cymbal) Snare, Bass Drum and Timpani. In the front, you have the long and softs, the strings. 

To pan your MIDI orchestra, 0 should be far left and 127 is far right. You rarely want to set any instrument to an extreme value. For example, Harp, might be set to 20, French Horn to 40, Flute to 60, Oboe to 70 and double basses to 110. The Front strings might be at 40 and the Celli at 89. Don't read these numbers as absolutes, they are just an estimate. Every piece of gear sounds a little different. While all synths have 128 theoretical pan values, many of these values do not do anything to the sound. Some only change the actual sonic position every 3, 7, 15 values, some even 31 values. So experiment, move things around "a little" and hopefully the sounds will fall into their pocket. "


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## Mundano (Jun 29, 2016)

JohnG said:


> dude -- no mixer mixes like this. If you have never done it before, I still wouldn't take this meter-head approach. This conceptually assumes there is a right answer -- there isn't.


yes, i agree with you, i'm only putting together information for the thread - maybe these are wrong, but i would like to read your approaches with woodwinds. I am mixing some track right now, with the positions of a traditional Symphonic Orchestra following my own experiences, but would be happy to hear other experiences too (want to learn). 
Cheers


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## Mundano (Jun 29, 2016)

from <http://www.mixonline.com/news/facilities/recording-brass-and-woodwinds/371949>

RICHARD KING
(...)
“For woodwinds with orchestra,” he continues, “I've done two systems. One is a stereo pair, because woodwinds are relatively easy to cover with a stereo pair and you can introduce that to your mains, and it all makes sense image-wise. And the bleed from the percussion behind the woodwinds is nice, as well. For instance, I like when I open up my woodwind mics to have the timpani dead-center behind the woodwinds, because it gives a nice stereo image of the timpani, but it's less diffuse than how the timpani is imaging in my main pickup, which is obviously much further away. Other times, if I'm mixing live, for instance to have more control, I'll actually mic each section, with a separate flute, oboe, clarinet and bassoon mic to get a quick balance. I use Schoeps MK4s on all the woodwinds. But if I'm doing a stereo pickup of the section overall, I like the B&K 4011, because it's a wider cardioid and it has a more even pickup of a larger group.”

I'm relying on the conductor to balance them overall. What we end up doing is fine-tuning the balance. We can't actually make things louder or softer necessarily, but we can focus things in terms of the clarity of the picture.
— _Richard King_

As for placement specifics for woodwinds, “You need some distance, obviously. On a clarinet, if you go for the bell, you don't get an even pickup of the instrument — some notes sound covered, others are too direct. I like to get a few inches closer to an oboe than a clarinet. Flute can be a little tricky. I find that if you're too far up over the top of the instrument, you get too much of the breathy sound and not enough of the real core of the sound. And bassoon, again, coming up over the instrument, you get too much reed and not enough of the fundamental, so I'm lower in my bassoon pickup than the other instruments; lower and from the side.”

- See more at: http://www.mixonline.com/news/facilities/recording-brass-and-woodwinds/371949#sthash.5ntAkSQv.dpuf


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jul 2, 2016)

Hi Mundano
I believe it does not make sense to collect theories about real recordings of woodwinds because they want help much for mixing orchestras played with samples. Also values of panner settings are useless or not more than a point for starting a mix. 

A better way:
Draw a virtual stage with all your instruments, select the effect which you want to use for creating the depths and do the rest with your ears and your monitors until the instrumets play at the right place on your virtual stage and with the corresponding (to the distance) volume. Use your "feeling" for all those decisions. 

Keep also in mind, that a mix not necessarily should copy the the reality. For example: It does not make sense to place the flutes behind the first violins in a mix because the violins will "cover" the sound of the flutes in a way - even if in the real orchestra the flutes are placed behind the violins... so if possible you could move the flut behind the cellos and the trombones behind the violins just because the frequency ranges are not occupated by front instruments... That's mixing as well, my dear.
In short: Collecting panner and other settings will not 100% lead to nice mixes. One way could be the one I mentioned above. 

Best
Beat


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## Ashermusic (Jul 2, 2016)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> Hi Mundano
> I believe it does not make sense to collect theories about real recordings of woodwinds because they want help much for mixing orchestras played with samples. Also values of panner settings are useless or not more than a point for starting a mix.
> 
> A better way:
> ...




Makes sense to me, Beat.


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## airflamesred (Jul 2, 2016)

Surely if you have 4 trombones you wouldn't pan them all to L12.5, well I wouldn't. Interesting info though, thanks.


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## Mundano (Jul 6, 2016)

Thanks you all so far for your input!!! <3 i'm working on it and of course the other factor is the density of instruments in the mix  more space (less instruments, upper voices) means possibilities of seating (panning) variations, less space and more density (upper and low voices) are giving me more mixed spectrum between instrumental families colours..  and narrow angle for panning woodwinds (around the center).


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