# Characteristics of the old Disney sound?



## Christoph18 (May 2, 2021)

I recently started listening to some old Disney soundtracks and I really enjoy the sound. I would like to understand the characteristics of it and what differentiates them for more recent soundtracks. An example of one I really enjoyed would be the Peter Pan soundtrack.



I'm talking about the music without lyrics as well as the songs.

If you know better examples of this kind of music, I would love to hear it. 

As far as it can tell there are some influences from jazz and from the romantic era. Though I studied a bit of both, I still feel like there are noticeable differences between them and your typical old Disney soundtrack. Do you know if there are any scores of this type of music available? I'm also interested in any book recommendation.

Thank you for reading this. I am looking forward to reading your replys.

PS: I tried to find an existing thread about this, but couldn't find one. Please don't be angry with me if I missed it. :D


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## mybadmemory (May 2, 2021)

I think @ChrisSiuMusic is our resident Disney music expert around here so perhaps check out his YouTube channel. Though he’s probably more into a slightly more modern Disney sound than this quite old one.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (May 2, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> I think @ChrisSiuMusic is our resident Disney music expert around here so perhaps check out his YouTube channel. Though he’s probably more into a slightly more modern Disney sound than this quite old one.


Appreciate the shoutout man :D


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## ChrisSiuMusic (May 2, 2021)

Christoph18 said:


> I recently started listening to some old Disney soundtracks and I really enjoy the sound. I would like to understand the characteristics of it and what differentiates them for more recent soundtracks. An example of one I really enjoyed would be the Peter Pan soundtrack.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is so beautiful. Honestly I think a lot of the classic sound comes down to a few things: the liberty of rubato, the jazz chords, and the blocked choral sound (where they sing the same words at the same rhythm but of course on different pitches). 

In terms of orchestration, the string sections are smaller here so you really hear the vibrato coming through, with the occasional brass for extra oomph and woodwinds for colour. But the string-based arrangement interacting with the vocal line is really what defines the classic Disney sound for me.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (May 2, 2021)

Just a couple of videos showing what I mean:


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## Christoph18 (May 2, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Just a couple of videos showing what I mean:



I have actually seen some of your videos. I really enjoy them. I'm currently half way through your Alan Menken video. :D It is different from the sound I tried to discribe above, but I value your analysis and videos very much. Lots of practical advice. Thank you very much for that!


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## Artemi (May 2, 2021)

ah, there is something about these jazzy choir harmonies


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## ChrisSiuMusic (May 2, 2021)

Christoph18 said:


> I have actually seen some of your videos. I really enjoy them. I'm currently half way through your Alan Menken video. :D It is different from the sound I tried to discribe above, but I value your analysis and videos very much. Lots of practical advice. Thank you very much for that!


Thank you for the kind words! Yes definitely different, as the Alan Menken sound came after this Peter Pan period. But hopefully my observations above made sense.


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## mybadmemory (May 2, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Appreciate the shoutout man :D


Well i appreciate your content so anytime! ☺️


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## gamma-ut (May 2, 2021)

I think a lot of the classic Disney sound revolves around the Tin-Pan Alley songwriting techniques that underpin the melodies and chord progressions, which then get a bunch of romantic orchestral embellishments in the final arrangements. The pastiche in Family Guy "It's a Wonderful Day for Pie" really underlines how the two were combined in my mind.


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## Dave Connor (May 2, 2021)

The sweet strings at :22 are Strauss (a huge influence on film music since it’s inception.) You can find that sort of divisi style and character in his, Also Sprach Zarathustra - immediately after the large opening section (used famously in the film 2001.)


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## Christoph18 (May 3, 2021)

Dave Connor said:


> The sweet strings at :22 are Strauss (a huge influence on film music since it’s inception.) You can find that sort of divisi style and character in his, Also Sprach Zarathustra - immediately after the large opening section (used famously in the film 2001.)


Thank you very much. I will definitely have a look at it!



gamma-ut said:


> I think a lot of the classic Disney sound revolves around the Tin-Pan Alley songwriting techniques that underpin the melodies and chord progressions, which then get a bunch of romantic orchestral embellishments in the final arrangements. The pastiche in Family Guy "It's a Wonderful Day for Pie" really underlines how the two were combined in my mind.


Ah yes. I know and like the Family Guy song. 
Thank you for your input. Could you send me a link or give me some other direction for the Tin-Pan Alley songwriting techniques? I tried to google it, but I have never heard of it and the results confuse me a bit.


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## gamma-ut (May 3, 2021)

Christoph18 said:


> Could you send me a link or give me some other direction for the Tin-Pan Alley songwriting techniques? I tried to google it, but I have never heard of it and the results confuse me a bit.


I was hoping to get away with it. Bizarrely, though it's an important element in the history of popular songwriting, it's pretty hard to find books and references that deal with the techniques directly (well, I couldn't find much). Most of the coverage is social or cultural.

The name refers to W28th St in New York (at least originally) but expanded out to cover the songwriting that dominated the US scene from the early 20th Century up to the mid/late-1950s, and particularly the stuff that turns up in musicals. Disney hired songwriters like Jerry Livingston, Frank Churchill and Leigh Harline among others.

In terms of technique, it's largely jazz influenced, though this gets watered down a lot by the time it gets to Disney, and there isn't exactly a handy guide.

However, as well as books and articles on Gershwin, some places to dig are around AABA or 32-bar form: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-two-bar_form

There are some common clichés. While searching around for stuff that might be linked to people like Livingston, I turned up this site that might be useful anyway and which highlights one technique: https://www.disneymusictheory.com/blog/category/composer-mack-david-and-al-hoffman-and-jerry-livingston

I hadn't come across the site before and a lot of it seems to be geared to the later Disney movies but it has some interesting points, not least the one about the merging melodic lines in Some Day My Prince Will Come and A Dream is a Wish.

When You Wish Upon A Star doesn't have the same merge but it has a similar down/up symmetry that mirrors the lyrics. However, the more important element of that one by Harline is the use of chromatic melodic or bass movement. This is trademark Tin Pan Alley stuff (as found in White Christmas, for example). The chromatic ascending or descending line leads to alternations between in-key major/minor chords and not-quite-in-key diminished, augmented and other extended chords (which you'll also see in Some Day). It's also a common trick for cartoon upstairs/downstairs moves. Long-story short: a lot of chromaticism but heavily disguised.

However, in the absence of an actual guide, the only realistic advice is to study some of the songs and music.


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## Christoph18 (May 4, 2021)

gamma-ut said:


> I was hoping to get away with it. Bizarrely, though it's an important element in the history of popular songwriting, it's pretty hard to find books and references that deal with the techniques directly (well, I couldn't find much). Most of the coverage is social or cultural.
> 
> The name refers to W28th St in New York (at least originally) but expanded out to cover the songwriting that dominated the US scene from the early 20th Century up to the mid/late-1950s, and particularly the stuff that turns up in musicals. Disney hired songwriters like Jerry Livingston, Frank Churchill and Leigh Harline among others.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much! Very helpful info. I will definitely take a closer look at the songs you mentioned.


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