# LASS: Adagio for Strings



## FireGS (Aug 1, 2009)

I'm sure you're all sick of my demos, but I'm trying to get the most of out LASS, and your help has been very useful. If you remember back, when Symphobia came out, I did this with Symphobia and VSL, and it wasn't bad. I just took that project file, and used LASS completely.

LASS and Altiverb 6

*A complete remake:
http://aixsyd.com/music/LASS_AdagioForStrings2.mp3*

~FireGS


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## synergy543 (Aug 1, 2009)

In your haste, it seems that you have reached a premature climax. In the score, it never even hits a forte until bar 46 - its mostly pp and p as it builds up to that point. Its not a multi-climatic piece. There is ONE climax on bar 50.

Of course this is a difficult piece. So why not take your time to play each line with expressive dynamics to show LASS in its best light? This is a piece that requires some time to build up.


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## FireGS (Aug 1, 2009)

Oh really? Snap, see, I dont even have a copy of the score.

s'good to know things like that.

Then again, if I didnt do that, people would tell me that I'm not riding the Mod wheel, or it sounds too synthy. GAH!


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 1, 2009)

I fear people will expect lib like LASS to do all the work for them. I don't mean to be negative but you may have to sweat a little for the results you're hoping for. You already have the desire and the lib, but you may have be a bit more patient before tackling the major works. Go for a simple piece, a few bars, try to get expression from just 2 notes. Each line has to be expressive. Don't be in such a hurry to sound like the London Symphony Orchestra. Looking forward to your next example.


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## synergy543 (Aug 1, 2009)

This is a torturous piece for samples. Although I believe it can be done but it would really take some time to make each line breath at the pp expression levels in the score. 1st mf is at bar 15! And then only briefly, where it backs to p again. Sorry 1st forte is bar 42, climax ff is at bar 50.


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## FireGS (Aug 1, 2009)

Anyone have a PDF they'd want to send my way? I want to get this right, but I'm doing it all off-hand. If youre going to compare it to a score, there's obviously no way I could get close without it.


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## Thonex (Aug 1, 2009)

What Guy said is pretty spot on for any library... including LASS. 

One thing I should make more mention of... if when you ride the MW to 100%... you are at _*fff*_. That's very loud and I think sometimes people my ride the MW up that high a little too liberally. Unless you are reaching some climactic moment, I'd keep the MW under 75%... as a guideline (there are no rules... just a guideline).

Start the at _*ppp*_ (MW near 10%) and slowly ebb and flow your way up. It's awesome to practice on a piece like this, but I'd say you'd need to listen to a real recording of it as you create the mock-up... this will force you to stay within the natural confines of the piece.

Also, use CC11 for added volume control... I have the CC1 and CC11 midi faders next to each other on my setup... so I can ride them together... although if you do that "literally" it will sound too "swelly" (BTW... "Swelly " is a highly technical term :lol: )

Nice job though.

Cheers,

AK


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## FireGS (Aug 1, 2009)

Well, that's one thing Ive noticed. LASS is very quiet. As in, even at 100% CC1, I have to turn the K3 output volume all the way up to even get acceptable levels. Is that because I'm not using CC11?


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## Thonex (Aug 1, 2009)

FireGS @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> Well, that's one thing Ive noticed. LASS is very quiet. As in, even at 100% CC1, I have to turn the K3 output volume all the way up to even get acceptable levels. Is that because I'm not using CC11?


No.. you shouldn't have to do that. Make sure CC7 is at 100% and CC11 too. The Master Vol knob on K3 should be 0.0 dB.

Keep up the good work.

Cheers,

Andrew K


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## synergy543 (Aug 1, 2009)

FireGS @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> Anyone have a PDF they'd want to send my way? I want to get this right, but I'm doing it all off-hand. If youre going to compare it to a score, there's obviously no way I could get close without it.



Sorry, I don't have the pdf. I purchased the printed score from:

http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/Ada ... 11/3170413


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## FireGS (Aug 1, 2009)

CC7, does that make the instrument volume 0db, or +12db as is the limit for each volume slide per instrument in K3?


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## FireGS (Aug 1, 2009)

synergy543 @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> FireGS @ Sat Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone have a PDF they'd want to send my way? I want to get this right, but I'm doing it all off-hand. If youre going to compare it to a score, there's obviously no way I could get close without it.
> ...



Ahh, okay. Found a copy just like that online. I'm going to completely redo this. Thankfully I didnt get too far, just for reasons like this. 

I'm going to delete my link until I upload a new version.

Besides the samples, how was the MIX? Reverb?


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## synergy543 (Aug 1, 2009)

To me, a mix is part of the orchestration and performance and is greatly affected by the way a piece is played. Aside from that, its just technical. When it sounds good, everything will fall in place and the mix should play itself. So I don't have anything to add regarding that.

If you have a link to share for the pdf, I'd love to get a copy as pdf is more convenient than hard copy.


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## FireGS (Aug 1, 2009)

Had to upload it to my server:

http://www.aixsyd.com/music/Samuel_Barber-Adagio_For_Strings.pdf (http://www.aixsyd.com/music/Samuel_Barb ... trings.pdf)

Just copy and paste into your browser.


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## synergy543 (Aug 1, 2009)

Bad link. I think the spaces are a problem, can you shorten the name?


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## FireGS (Aug 1, 2009)

Fixed.


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## synergy543 (Aug 1, 2009)

Thanks.


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## FireGS (Aug 1, 2009)

Okay, complete remake at the top. How is it now?


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 1, 2009)

If you're going to tackle one of the most difficult piece to program for any type of sampled strings be ready for criticisms.

Much better, more expressive, but still too choppy, some parts are way too static, you can't just leave a note hanging, it's got to have its own life even if it's sustaining for 2,4 or 8 beats. The portamentos are a bit sudden I find.


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## synergy543 (Aug 1, 2009)

FireGS @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> Okay, complete remake at the top. How is it now?


Hmmm.... I usually don't comment on mockups as I'm not putting mine up so it feels a bit awkward....its easy to criticize. And you're tackling something that's a bit beyond me at the moment too.

Well, I would interpret it a bit different. 
1) First, I wouldn't use those bends (they make me cringe). Or at least I'd be much more judicious = be more subtle. 
2) And somehow, I'd try to elicit a bit more expression from the phrasing even though I know that's a tall order at the given dynamic level - still, I think it can be done. Have you listened carefully to a real string performance of this piece and how they phrase it? Its very difficult to achieve with MIDI CC but I think you can learn a great deal studying real string phrases.
3) In order to do #2, I'd add an LP 1-pole filter to give an extra edge of dynamic control at the pp level. Maybe track it with CC1. This would also give it a slightly darker edge I think this piece needs.
4) Something about the legato still doesn't feel right to me - somehow a few sound too detached for my taste. I haven't quite figured out the legato with LASS although I wonder if your notes are played independently and offset a bit to enhance the variation? Are you using the divisi in combinations? It sounds more like you're using the full patches. Maybe by using the divisi combinations you could get smoother note transitions?
5) I'd add a bit more reverb than what you're using. Real strings in a hall wouldn't be that upfront - maybe a studio but not in a hall.

Well, those are a few ideas. Probably more than you want but I'm thinking about this problem for myself too. So FWIW, I hope its of help to you.

Greg


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## Mahlon (Aug 2, 2009)

FireGS @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> Well, that's one thing Ive noticed. LASS is very quiet. As in, even at 100% CC1, I have to turn the K3 output volume all the way up to even get acceptable levels. Is that because I'm not using CC11?



I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the purpose of having a bit lower volume is so when you combine 3 or 4 patches (Violins A, B, C, and/or ViolinsII B, etc.) you reach a very good sound level about -12 to -9 decibles. The patches individually do have a lower volume coming in at around -24 db on my machine with everything set to unity gain. But combine them into a full section and they're coming out just about right.

Am I wrong in thinking this? Is LASS designed this way?

Mahlon


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## Thonex (Aug 2, 2009)

Mahlon @ Sun Aug 02 said:


> FireGS @ Sat Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, that's one thing Ive noticed. LASS is very quiet. As in, even at 100% CC1, I have to turn the K3 output volume all the way up to even get acceptable levels. Is that because I'm not using CC11?
> ...



LASS was designed to be layered... yes. But volume is such a tricky thing. In the context of a solo violin, you'll want the violin to be louder than (say) if it was to be used as a first chair. So, bottom line.. we still have to use our ears.... DARN IT!! :mrgreen:


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 2, 2009)

And the good news is that the ear just gets better each day as long as you keep working at it. Just like a muscle. It is the ULTIMATE reference to good programing.


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## Hardy Heern (Aug 2, 2009)

As a fan of Barber's Adagio I must confess to being disappointed by this...although I suspect that a fair old effort was made to produce it....so well done on that front.

The string sound doesn't do it for me and the portamento just doesn't sound right, at all, to my ears and stick out where they should meld into the whole sound. I have proposed over the years, that the speed of moving in string slides, from one note to another, should be done using a letter 'S' ramp and not a 'Z' ramp as an 'S' is more like what happens in practice...is this the reason for the artificial result? 

Like others I also find the legato somewhat wanting but, maybe, this could be cured by slightly overlapping the notes or WHY. Would more volume changes throughout help realism?

As I say, I find the strings rather harsh at times....but I realise that this is very personal.....one man's strings is another man's strings..........

Just my opinion.

Cheers

Frank


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## Lunatique (Aug 8, 2009)

The fade-in in some parts sounded too abrupt, and the portamentos sounded a bit severe. This is not an easy piece to mockup though. I've heard two different versions done with VSL in the past that were quite good. I think one was by Sam Ferara and one was by Michael Hula.


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## FireGS (Aug 8, 2009)

<-- Sam Ferrara


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## Lunatique (Aug 8, 2009)

FireGS @ Sat Aug 08 said:


> <-- Sam Ferrara



HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA! OMIGOD PEED IN MY PANTS.

Well, I guess you'll have to outdo your previous effort with LASS then. :D


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## FireGS (Aug 8, 2009)

Made me giggle, too


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## Mahlon (Aug 9, 2009)

FireGS @ Sat Aug 08 said:


> <-- Sam Ferrara



That post was a great 'visual' in all respects -- cool when the internet works out visually in one's favor. Smileys are so often superfluous, but in this instance from old school QWERTY communication, through the name, to the moden smiley, all pointing to the visual.... nice....

Mahlon

....and now people say... what the Sam Hill is he talkin' about?


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