# Anyone working without Kontakt or Komplete? :-)



## 3DC (Jun 17, 2021)

Out of sheer newbie curiosity I wonder how many of you, if any at all, compose without NI stuff?
Is this even possible or normal? Its seems to me resistance is futile. Right? Should I join the NI Collective?


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## d.healey (Jun 17, 2021)

I use other pro and non-pro stuff (depends on what you mean by pro of course). I also record real musicians.


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## chillbot (Jun 17, 2021)

Falls under Chillbot's "Yeah But Why" rule. Can you get by without Kontakt? Sure you can, Yeah But Why. You can also get by without Omnisphere or learning piano or learning theory but why would you do that to yourself.


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## Sarah Mancuso (Jun 17, 2021)

Most developers of high-quality sample libraries use Kontakt as the engine powering their products. It's very hard to avoid without senselessly locking yourself out of most of the market.


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## AkashicBird (Jun 17, 2021)

Total amateur here, but I really think it's possible. Some good libraries are Kontakt Player ready (like Strezov), some reputable ones (Spitfire) don't even need Kontakt. Not even talking about synths, this one's easy.
I've always been tempted to invest in the full version of Kontakt but everytime I think about it I understand that I don't need it cause all my needs are covered by other developpers.
So yeah, unless proven wrong and there's a specific kind of library only the full version of Kontakt allows (and even then, it's relative to each individual), I'll stick to non Kontakt so far. But I understand that's it's a good package with Komplete if you're starting out and want a versatile package without having to look in different places.


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## el-bo (Jun 17, 2021)

3DC said:


> Out of sheer newbie curiosity I wonder how many of you, if any at all, compose without NI stuff?
> Is this even possible or normal? Its seems to me resistance is futile. Right? Should I join the NI Collective?


I am going to go with Chillbot's "Yeah But Why" rule.

If Kontakt cost $1000, I might understand the resistance. At that price, I wouldn't own it yet either. But it isn't. At the right time of year, it can be had for around $125, and you'll often find people getting rid of it cheaply after Komplete upgrade season. 

I know the Borg assimilation stuff is just innocent teasing, but is there perhaps some part of you that wants to be 'The boy that could'...I mean, What if you're right and we're wrong? 






Yeah, you can avoid it, and put together a solid palette without it, but inevitably you're going to want something that relies on it, at which point the added cost in the moment will just add to the pain. Besides, how else are you going to fill up hundred's of gigabytes of SSD space, with freebies you'll likely never use?


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## Polkasound (Jun 17, 2021)

3DC said:


> Out of sheer newbie curiosity I wonder how many of you, if any at all, compose without NI stuff?
> Is this even possible or normal? Its seems to me resistance is futile. Right? Should I join the NI Collective?


Are you considering Kontakt to be part of the NI Collective, or just NI libraries?

Regarding Komplete, it can be an excellent value to many musicians, especially those starting out, but I personally don't see it as a necessary tool. I estimate that 95% of the Kontakt libraries I use in my productions are third party (non-NI) libraries.

You absolutely can create music without Native Instruments libraries, but they do make some really nice ones. You could also create music without any Kontakt libraries at all, but that would be shutting a pretty massive door to a whole world of musical tools.

So, while NI libraries may not be essential to my productions, Kontakt most definitely is.


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## thorwald (Jun 17, 2021)

It's possible, unless you are blind or visually impaired, as there is currently no accessible 3rd party commercial standalone sample player. Kontakt also belongs in this category, except there's Komplete Kontrol, so it's the only half-accessible solution. But anyways...

If you work with live musicians, or Vienna/Spitfire/Orchestral Tools libraries are good enough for what you do, then yes, Kontakt can be absolutely avoided, though as per the previous posters, why would you? At least 90% of libraries use Kontakt.

You don't actually have to buy the NI Komplete stuff if what you want is Kontakt only. Native Instruments libraries are meant for a more generic use. That's not to say that they have bad stuff, because depending on what you do, their libraries can be pretty decent, but for example for an orchestral line the Symphony Series is something I would definitely skip and focus on third-party libraries instead.


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## Sarah Mancuso (Jun 17, 2021)

There's some nice stuff in Komplete, but honestly I don't use most of it. You can get the full version of Kontakt for $125 during sales once or twice a year (and many libraries run in the free Kontakt Player version), so it might be worth just investing in specific libraries you like instead of throwing down money on Komplete if you're not sure about it.


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## LordOfTheStrings (Jun 17, 2021)

3DC said:


> Be serious. I am a complete newbie among real pros.
> 
> I am just before my first major purchase. I have two paths: One is Spitfire Audio BBC SO PRO and the other is NI Komplete 13 UCE. There are other options but these two are most appealing to me.
> So it makes me wonder...get "assimilated" with so much goodies I could never go trough all of them in life time with K13 UCE or pick single PRO library instead. No Kontakt Player needed in this case.


Me too lol. I was planning on getting kontakt crossgrade, but I decided to get komplete 13. Think I would regret not doing that in the long run, if I feel like making electronic music again, comes with lots of great synths.
Also planning on getting a guitar again at some point, used to play a lot. So guitar rig will become useful.
DO IT BRO! YOU CAN DO IT
Disclaimer though, komplete doesn't include skills. I was a bit dissapointed about that


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 17, 2021)

I don't use Kontakt that much anymore actually. Cinematic Studio Series runs on it, so yeah. VSL and OT have their own stuff and that already covers a lot of ground.


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## LordOfTheStrings (Jun 17, 2021)

3DC said:


> Yep. That is my thinking too. I will probably go with BBC PRO for now and then latter this year for Kontakt on Black Friday sale.
> 
> Thanks for nudging me in the right direction guys.


I think kontakt sale is only during summer


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## doctoremmet (Jun 17, 2021)

3DC said:


> on Black Friday sale.


summersale is where it’s at - oh doubleposted- sorry hehe


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## el-bo (Jun 17, 2021)

3DC said:


> I have two paths: One is Spitfire Audio BBC SO PRO and the other is NI Komplete 13 UCE.


I don't really understand the dilemma. Owning BBCSOPRo won't quench your thirst for all the non-orchestral goodies that come with K13UCE. And while I am not someone willing to dismiss/slate NISS, it is a completely different proposition to Spitfire's offering.

Why not make a list of what really interests you in K13. If you are interested in the main products e.g Reaktor, Kontakt, Guitar Rig, the pianos, some of the synths, fx etc., then it might be easy to make the case for either sticking with 'Ultimate' or possibly only needing K13 'standard'. The money saved would make a substantial dent in the cost of BBCSO (Assuming sales prices), or in the other case, allow you to buy it completely. K13 'Standard', along with BBCSOPRO would be a fantastic place to start. You might then consider upgrading Komplete, next Summer.


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## Tralen (Jun 17, 2021)

I use Kontakt but not Komplete, what should I vote?


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## el-bo (Jun 18, 2021)

On KVR it's traditional to offer the option 'Fish' in one's poll, for all those who fall outside of the given parameters. Perhaps VI-C needs an equivalent.

I suggest '*N*'


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## GtrString (Jun 18, 2021)

I use about 75% real guitars, basses, vocals, amps, mics and analog gear, and 25% Vi's and plugins. Of those 25%, I estimate to use less than 5% NI instruments and plugins. Still Kontakt is in more than 80% of the productions. I would struggle without Kontakt, but Komplete isn't as essential. For me, that is. I blame the sales..


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## CATDAD (Jun 18, 2021)

So much stuff uses only the Kontakt Player that you could go far without the full version. But if you took the cheapest costs you can acquire Kontakt at and divide it amongst the full-Kontakt-required libraries it would be a drop in the bucket! 

The base version of Komplete is also fairly cheap for a wealth of "stopgap solutions" for when you need some random ethnic perc, or e-keys, a bass guitar line, a B3, or something for a one-off that doesn't call for the best library in the market. Software equivalent of having a nice box of toys to conveniently pull out when a cheap kalimba or tiny xylophone is just what you need!

Some people still choose FM8 as their primary FM synth, Super 8 actually sounds great, and Monark is still a good Moog emulation. Reaktor has incalculable value if you happen to be the kind of person to dig in to it. 

Their pianos are decent enough to use (I'm not a very skilled player so I can't really remark deeply on play-ability) and Noire actually sounds really good.

Other than that there is a stupidly huge amount of filler white-bread content that most people wont use, but what I listed above has been more than worth it.

It's not essential, but it's not useless either! The bigger versions I would say are a harder sell, with great value for people who will use the good stuff in it, and terrible value for people that wont.

...Don't pay more than 50% for it.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Jun 18, 2021)

Buying full Kontakt for $125 is the best and most logical first purchase for any musician looking to get into music software. While you can’t do Komplete upgrades during Black Friday, I think you can buy Komplete for $125 then, but I’m not sure about that. Anyway, you can for a few more days. 

As soon as you have it you have access to hundreds of free instruments, some of them superb.

There is actually a lot of very usable stuff to be found within Kontakt itself. Maybe not state-of-the-art, but usable in a pinch. This is particularly true if your only other purchase is a symphony orchestra. Very different stuff.

Unless it is your plan to lock yourself out forever of over 50% of the very best instruments on sale, someday you will own full Kontakt. Whether you own Komplete or any NI other instruments is optional. I love them and use them probably more than 99% of the people on this forum, but that’s just me. 

If by any chance you ever buy a version of Komplete, you can quickly sell your copy of Kontakt for $100, maybe even the full $125.

PS I find it funny that people think that using third party Kontakt Player instruments is a way of going without Native Instruments.


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## SteveC (Jun 18, 2021)

I bought K12 U for 159usd. Sometimes someone needs money. Search platforms like Knobcloud every day, sometimes there is a deal like this.


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## bill5 (Jun 18, 2021)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> Most developers of high-quality sample libraries use Kontakt as the engine powering their products.


uh, no. Unless you've decided that EastWest, VSL, Orchestral Tools (I could go on) don't have any high-quality sample libraries. And many of those that do support using the free version (the point being you don't need to spend money on Kontakt).




chillbot said:


> Falls under Chillbot's "Yeah But Why" rule. Can you get by without Kontakt? Sure you can, Yeah But Why.


Because Kontakt sucks?




thorwald said:


> At least 90% of libraries use Kontakt.


Your math needs work. 

PS this from someone who just bought Kontakt. The appeal isn't in the quality of the player itself - again IMO it sucks - but as others have said, the many, many often free or at least cheap VIs which require it.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Jun 18, 2021)

TigerTheFrog said:


> Buying full Kontakt for $125 is the best and most logical first purchase for any musician looking to get into music software. While you can’t do Komplete upgrades during Black Friday, I think you can buy Komplete for $125 then, but I’m not sure about that. Anyway, you can for a few more days.
> 
> As soon as you have it you have access to hundreds of free instruments, some of them superb.
> 
> There is actually a lot of very usable stuff to be found within Kontakt itself. Maybe not state-of-the-art, but usable in a pinch. This is particularly true if your only other purchase is a symphony orchestra. Very different stuff.


I recently did buy it for 125 bucks. But that price was from the crossgrade option because i own several libraries already that qualified + the 50% sale. Don’t know if those trick crossgrades (crossgrading from a free library) still work.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 18, 2021)

If you have almost any player library, I would do the upgrade to full Kontakt now, during the sale. Then wait for Christmas for 40% off BBCSO. Unless they do another sale before then. With full Kontakt, you have access to a lot of great (and not so great) free and low cost libraries. 

I did buy KU9 when I first started with orchestral libraries. At first, I hardly used any of it besides the pianos. But I've slowly been incorporating a lot more into my music. I sometimes wished then that I just got Kontakt only. 

And for Bill5, yes OT and Spitfire have their own players, but both their big orchestral libraries have yet to be ported over. I'm actually happy I have SSO and Berlin in Kontakt. I will likely get them both free when they do port them, but I will always have the option of using either version, as both new players still have some problems.


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## José Herring (Jun 18, 2021)

Kontkat is a no brainer. Komplete is almost a must have. The only reason I say "almost" is that I went without a Komplete package for 10 years to no ill effect but I'm glad I have it now. If all you had was Kontakt and Komplete and a good DAW you could make a lot of serious music. Even the old VSL included in the Kontakt library is still usable. I used some of those for years to good effect. The choir for pad like work is fairly good. The woodwinds decent enough and the harp still a classic after all these years. 

Of course you'll want to move up from those sounds but it's a good starting point. If I were starting out I'd get something like Kontakt+Komplete standard and Jaeger and be good for a while. There is so much in all of that.

Just my random thoughts.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Jun 18, 2021)

Currently under a self-imposed Kontakt ban in all of my sessions for three years now. Though, there are also other self-imposed limitations that are probably rare amongst film/media/DAW composers, such as my 75-instrument track per-session limit.


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## ryans (Jun 18, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Currently under a self-imposed Kontakt ban in all of my sessions for three years now. Though, there are also other self-imposed limitations that are probably rare amongst film/media/DAW composers, such as my 75-instrument track per-session limit.


Impressive.


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## bill5 (Jun 18, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Komplete is almost a must have.


Agree to disagree. If you have Kontakt, Komplete is a waste of money. 



> If all you had was Kontakt and Komplete and a good DAW you could make a lot of serious music. Even the old VSL included in the Kontakt library is still usable. I used some of those for years to good effect. The choir for pad like work is fairly good. The woodwinds decent enough


That may all be true, but some of us are not satisfied with "usable" or "fairly good" or "decent enough."


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## José Herring (Jun 18, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Agree to disagree. If you have Kontakt, Komplete is a waste of money.
> 
> 
> That may all be true, but some of us are not satisfied with "usable" or "fairly good" or "decent enough."


Unbunch those panties dude. Just my thoughts. 

The idea that Komplete is a waste of money if you have Kontakt shows a real lack of understanding of all that Komplete has to offer.

Komplete has a lot more to offer than just Kontakt. The synths are better than fairly good. They are great. Massive X, Reaktor, Monark (part of Reaktor), Form, Super8 ( a hidden gem), Absynth are top notch tools. 

You'd be surprised at how usable the samples can be. I used them for years along with EWHO to great effect.

Raum is an excellent effect reverb for creating soundscapes. I love it to death. Noir is a top notch piano that has now quickly become my go to for emotional, and light drama and just all around great sound. Instant production quality. Battery and Polyplex are great for programming drums. Driver is an excellent distortion filter. Guitar Rig 6 just up its game. Great for processing sythts, drums, what have you.

If budget is limited and I don't know if any composer starting out who has $20,000 to throw on samples and synths, he could do a lot worse and waste a lot of money on things that Komplete has covered really well. 

And, it includes Kontkat to boot. Add to that a decent all around high quality reasonably priced sample library and he's good to go until he starts pulling in some money to expand outward if he even needed to.


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## LordOfTheStrings (Jun 18, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Unbunch those panties dude. Just my thoughts.
> 
> The idea that Komplete is a waste of money if you have Kontakt shows a real lack of understanding of all that Komplete has to offer.
> 
> ...


I agree. For someone who doesn't have a lot, a DAW + Komplete (on sale) is a great starting point.


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## el-bo (Jun 19, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Unbunch those panties dude. Just my thoughts.
> 
> The idea that Komplete is a waste of money if you have Kontakt shows a real lack of understanding of all that Komplete has to offer.
> 
> ...


I think that calling it a no-brainier is more appropriate than must-have, for it is definitely a no-brainer.

I'd add Komtour, Rounds, Spark and Prism to the list of top-notch included synths. And for someone like bill5, who seems happy to trawl through all the freebies the Internet has to offer, the Reaktor User Library is a veritable treasure-trove


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## Minko (Jun 19, 2021)

Hi. I just wanted to add that there is no "normal" you decide and you learn along the way the tools you need and or like to use.

I do recommend getting the NI stuff when I have conversations with starters because there is so much in there for a good price. But there is wonderful free stuff out there that you can write complete albums with.


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## Chris Harper (Jun 19, 2021)

I too was surprised at how much of the Komplete stuff I actually use on a regular basis. If you get good at using EQ, compression, saturation/distortion, reverbs/delays, editing audio, etc., it’s amazing what you can do with even the most mediocre samples. Is it easier to just dial up a better library? Sure…usually. But I can make one sample sound pretty good faster than I can audition a dozen different libraries. It also depends on what you’re actually going to use. If you’re only writing orchestral, then you can get by just fine with one or two high quality libraries. <Audible gasp!> If you write a wide variety of music, it would be really expensive to get a top shelf library for every single instrument you will ever use. I’m not going to buy a world class accordion library or a bagpipe library for one song. Factory Library to the rescue! Depending on the DAW you use, you may have one there that works great, but I like to use Reaper most of the time. And there are a few really good modules in there too that I would probably purchase if they weren’t included. Personally, I wouldn’t bother with the UCE edition, though. That’s the beauty of having Kontakt. It opens up a ton of options instead of paying for UCE just to get the NI symphony stuff. That may be exactly what you want, but it’s far from your only choice. Instead of getting the UCE, you could even just get Komplete Standard or Ultimate, then still get BBC Core or Nucleus or VSL or whatever if you wanted.


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## el-bo (Jun 19, 2021)

Chris Harper said:


> If you get good at using EQ, compression, saturation/distortion, reverbs/delays, editing audio, etc., it’s amazing what you can do with even the most mediocre samples. Is it easier to just dial up a better library? Sure…usually. But I can make one sample sound pretty good faster than I can audition a dozen different libraries.


This!

I'm not a from-scratch sound-designer. Like you, I tend to bend already-existing sounds to my will, using effects. Even the blandest FM8 patch can become a 3D analogue-sounding masterpiece, courtesy of the right amounts of saturation, compression and filtering.


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## bill5 (Jun 19, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Unbunch those panties dude. Just my thoughts.


Kindly don't impose your dressing habits on me. I just expressed my thoughts as well. Someone disagreeing with you doesn't equal "bunched panties" FYI.




> The idea that Komplete is a waste of money if you have Kontakt shows a real lack of understanding of all that Komplete has to offer.


Wrong again. I'm well aware of it. It shows that I have an opinion of it which has no more or less inherent value than yours.



> Komplete has a lot more to offer than just Kontakt. The synths are better than fairly good. They are great.


This is also a matter of opinion. I do like Absynth, but not Massive, for example.

It does have a lot, but quantity doesn't equal quality. Personally I'd rather pick and choose elsewhere, but to each their own.



> You'd be surprised at how usable the samples can be. I used them for years along with EWHO to great effect.


Again I'm going for more than "usable." If you are happy with what you got out of them, great...again, to each their own.




> If budget is limited and I don't know if any composer starting out who has $20,000 to throw on samples and synths, he could do a lot worse and waste a lot of money on things that Komplete has covered really well.


I'm sure he could do worse. IMO he could also do better.



> a decent all around high quality reasonably priced sample library and he's good to go until he starts pulling in some money to expand outward if he even needed to.


I think it's telling that you keep using lukewarm adjectives like "decent" and "usable." If that's good enough for someone, more power to them.

But you may note many (most?) people don't who have Komplete don't stop there to say the least. That itself should be telling.

In fairness, I guess I should have qualified my answer more. It might not be a waste of money at all for someone who wants something "good enough" and it depends what you want it for etc. I'm just going for more.


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## Sarah Mancuso (Jun 19, 2021)

bill5 said:


> uh, no. Unless you've decided that EastWest, VSL, Orchestral Tools (I could go on) don't have any high-quality sample libraries. And many of those that do support using the free version (the point being you don't need to spend money on Kontakt).


I did say "most".

And Kontakt Player libraries are still using Kontakt as their engine. The OP's question was about using Kontakt _at all_.


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## Robo Rivard (Jun 19, 2021)

I've been using the full Kontakt along with high-quality libraries for a long time (no Komplete). But since a year or two, I've been adding a lot of VSL Synchron stuff, as well as SINE libraries from OT. I even fell for EW OPUS Diamond and EW Hollywood Choir last month.

Everything rolls like a charm with SSD, and I've never been happier.


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## LivingEdge Studios (Jun 20, 2021)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> The OP's question was about using Kontakt _at all_.


"Anyone working without Kontakt or Komplete? ", unless the OP changed it.

That would be me. I'm happy with my Win7 computer -- all windows updates disabled!, and Reaper.

Workflow is MIDI to keyboards, sound modules, and external/interal mixing along the way. VS-2480 for 56-bit mastering and back into Reaper for rendering.

I'm thinking about Dolby ATMOS for surround, but going to try using Motional Surround on the Integra-7. For the moment, I'm happy.

I don't know if my computer will handle DaVinci Resolve 17 for post-production, so I haven't used it.


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## thorwald (Jun 21, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Your math needs work.


Nope, it doesn't. "At least" is an estimate, feel free to up it if it makes you feel better ☺️ I think it is safe to assume that 10% of libraries don't use Kontakt. Vienna, Orchestral Tools's Shine Player, some Spitfire Audio libraries, 
Iamlamprey's Neat Player, Best Service's Player, Decent Sampler, Sforzando, etc.

But hey, it's good to know that I chose a better career than being a math expert, go music! 😀


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## bill5 (Jun 21, 2021)

thorwald said:


> I think it is safe to assume that 10% of libraries don't use Kontakt. Vienna, Orchestral Tools's Shine Player, some Spitfire Audio libraries,
> Iamlamprey's Neat Player, Best Service's Player, Decent Sampler, Sforzando, etc.


...and EastWest, and IK Miroslav...even if we stop there I'd say that's way more than 10%. But let me put it this way: what libraries DO require Kontakt? That'd be much closer to the 10% range-ish, esp if you further refine to the full paid version only.


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## thorwald (Jun 21, 2021)

bill5 said:


> ...and EastWest, and IK Miroslav...even if we stop there I'd say that's way more than 10%. But let me put it this way: what libraries DO require Kontakt? That'd be much closer to the 10% range-ish, esp if you further refine to the full paid version only.


What's a better question IMHO is whether there's a more popular sampler than Kontakt/Kontakt Player (since both of them are Kontakt). I think you will find that Kontakt covers way more than 10% still, especially if we look at what free libraries are released under (take Pianobook, Project SAM, Sonuscore, Sonicouture, etc as an example which provide free libraries). Don't get me wrong, dedicated players are also quite popular, especially the likes of Vienna, but they're nowhere near as popular as Kontakt. This is slowly changing for about a decade now, Kontakt's popularity is definitely diminishing.


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## bill5 (Jun 21, 2021)

thorwald said:


> What's a better question IMHO is whether there's a more popular sampler than Kontakt/Kontakt Player (since both of them are Kontakt). I think you will find that Kontakt covers way more than 10% still,


You keep moving the goalposts  Your initial statement was "At least 90% of libraries use Kontakt"...now you're saying "way more than 10%"....two very diff claims. Whatever, no big, I was just pointing out that Kontakt doesn't cover anywhere near 90% (or more) of all libraries. It is used by a lot of stuff though, which is why I bought it. I'll still be using a lot of stuff that doesn't use it too...


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## thorwald (Jun 21, 2021)

bill5 said:


> You keep moving the goalposts  Your initial statement was "At least 90% of libraries use Kontakt"...now you're saying "way more than 10%"....two very diff claims. Whatever, no big, I was just pointing out that Kontakt doesn't cover anywhere near 90% (or more) of all libraries. It is used by a lot of stuff though, which is why I bought it. I'll still be using a lot of stuff that doesn't use it too...


90% is way more than 10%, if my math is right ☺️

The reason why I initially said 90%, then 10% is because I compared the popularity of Kontakt to other non-Kontakt-based samplers. I still think that Kontakt is at least 90%, but I guess this is where we agree to disagree, which is absolutely fine of course. There are some quite incredible non-Kontakt libraries, in fact, the more we have, the better, to avoid being locked in, so I don't blame you for using them ☺️


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