# Has Working With Samples Ever Made You Look Silly?



## Rodney Money (Aug 22, 2015)

I've noticed that most sample companies use incorrect terms describing their articulations. Has there ever been a time where that use of "sample terminology" has embarrassed you in font of real (live is a better term) musicians recording your track?

I thought of this due to an experience during a recording session with one of my fellow composers as he was arguing with the conductor for 20 minutes on the term a2. This also came back into my mind after reading about a new brass library and then the developer saying something on the lines of these are probably not the common terms. So with this, it got me thinking is this a common issue or even an issue at all?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 22, 2015)

Rodney Money said:


> Has there ever been a time where that use of "sample terminology" has embarrassed you in font of _*real musicians*_?



He just called us fake musicians! I'm so offended that I'm headed to Facebook *right now*.


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## Rodney Money (Aug 22, 2015)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> He just called us fake musicians! I'm so offended that I'm headed to Facebook *right now*.


Lol. Nah, I meant in front of a live ensemble that was recording your tract.


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## Rodney Money (Aug 22, 2015)

I thought of this due to an experience during a recording session with one of my fellow composers as he was arguing with the conductor for 20 minutes on the term a2.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 22, 2015)

That's interesting, let's see if I would have gotten in that argument too: I'd write a2 to indicate a return to unison after a solo passage. Would that pass in the real world?


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## Rodney Money (Aug 22, 2015)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> That's interesting, let's see if I would have gotten in that argument too: I'd write a2 to indicate a return to unison after a solo passage. Would that pass in the real world?


That's what the conductor was saying while he was trying to say it was only 2 people.


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## chibear (Aug 22, 2015)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> That's interesting, let's see if I would have gotten in that argument too: I'd write a2 to indicate a return to unison after a solo passage. Would that pass in the real world?


Only if there are only 2 players on the part. If there are 4, then solo to a4 (like a horn section unison).....orrrrr just to cover your behind solo to tutti. Then the conductor can go back to waving his hands without being confused.


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## Rodney Money (Aug 22, 2015)

This also came back into my mind after reading about a new brass library and then the developer saying something on the lines of these are probably not the common terms. So with this, it got me thinking is this a common issue or even an issue at all?


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## Rodney Money (Aug 22, 2015)

chibear said:


> Only if there are only 2 players on the part. If there are 4, then solo to a4 (like a horn section unison).....orrrrr just to cover your behind solo to tutti. Then the conductor can go back to waving his hands without being confused.


If memory serves me correct, there were 3 trombones and 1 bass trombone. He wanted only 2 of the 3 tenors to play.


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## chibear (Aug 22, 2015)

Ya, in the case of brass, especially it's best to write out individual parts just to avoid situations like that.

As far as the terminologies used by developers, I'm a retired brass player and at the beginning of using samples had a devil of a time figuring out what they were talking about articulation-wise. The biggest one was legato which normally means a soft tongue to a brass player but more often than not means what a brass player would call 'slurred' in a sample library. Portato was a term I had never come across in almost 50 yrs of playing. Now I pretty much ignore the terms, play with the library, and email the developer if I can't produce what I want to hear :D


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## bryla (Aug 22, 2015)

In that case a2 doesn't specify whether it's 1 and 2 or 2 and 3 that plays the line. Therefore you mark I.II. or II.III. – not a2.


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## muk (Aug 23, 2015)

Using the term 'a 2' for sections of more than two players only leads to confusion. In such situations bryla's suggestion is better as it is clear cut.
"Has working with samples ever made you look silly?" Sure. Everytime I use that TEC breath controller. But in the way you suggested with 'sample terminology', no, luckily it hasn't.


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## bbunker (Aug 23, 2015)

Was 'a2' the right term to use? Probably not. But the composer doesn't look foolish, the conductor does. Stay in your lane and do your job, conductor-guy. It says 'a2,' so have the trombonists who want to play it raise their hands, pick two, and do your f'ing job.

What's there to argue? If I feel like writing "Bones go Boom Boom" or "a2" or "Mysteriously, like Allegro Purple" in my score, then I get to. And the conductor's job is to waggle his baton in such a way to make sure that they indeed go Boom Boom a2 Mysteriously with a purple allegro tinge.


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## Maestro1972 (Aug 23, 2015)

bbunker said:


> If I feel like writing "Bones go Boom Boom" or "a2" or "Mysteriously, like Allegro Purple" in my score, then I get to. And the conductor's job is to waggle his baton in such a way to make sure that they indeed go Boom Boom a2 Mysteriously with a purple allegro tinge.



This guy!  "Bones go Boom Boom....like Allegro Purple!" Love it!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 23, 2015)

Reminds me of those bizarre performance directions from Erik Satie - "like a nightingale with tootache", "open your head", "sheepishly" etc. ... or my personal favorite: "work it out yourself"!


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## Daryl (Aug 23, 2015)

bbunker said:


> Was 'a2' the right term to use? Probably not. But the composer doesn't look foolish, the conductor does. Stay in your lane and do your job, conductor-guy. It says 'a2,' so have the trombonists who want to play it raise their hands, pick two, and do your f'ing job.



That's a terrible idea. You never ask anyone in an orchestra if they'd like to play something. 



bbunker said:


> What's there to argue? If I feel like writing "Bones go Boom Boom" or "a2" or "Mysteriously, like Allegro Purple" in my score, then I get to. And the conductor's job is to waggle his baton in such a way to make sure that they indeed go Boom Boom a2 Mysteriously with a purple allegro tinge.


Obviously that would be the amateur way to do it. Composers who actually know what they are doing use the correct terminology. 

However, increasingly these days it is the conductors job to try to make sense of what the composer provides and it's not as simple as butting out. I have conducted plenty of sessions where I've had to make decisions about things that are really the composer's job. The art is knowing when to ask a question, making sure to get feedback and moving on quickly.

Look all jokes aside, in this example both were wrong. Nobody should argue about anything like this for 20 minutes. Or for 5 minutes. Or at all. What should have happened was that the conductor ask the composer how many trombones he wanted on this passage. Answer comes back "2". Tell the trombone section 1 & 2 play it, 1 & 3 play it or 2 & 3 play it, depending on circumstance. End of story.

D


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## Daryl (Aug 23, 2015)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Reminds me of those bizarre performance directions from Erik Satie - "like a nightingale with tootache", "open your head", "sheepishly" etc. ... or my personal favorite: "work it out yourself"!


I also like the ones from Percy Grainger. Although he was a nutter....

D


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## Daryl (Aug 23, 2015)

chibear said:


> Portato was a term I had never come across in almost 50 yrs of playing.


With horn players I've always asked for legato with a soft tonguing (so to speak). I only revert to using the term portato when I'm working with a non English speaking orchestra. With the rolled "r" and shoulder shrug, of course.

D


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 23, 2015)

Daryl said:


> Look all jokes aside, in this example both were wrong. Nobody should argue about anything like this for 20 minutes. Or for 5 minutes. Or at all. What should have happened was that the conductor ask the composer how many trombones he wanted on this passage. Answer comes back "2". Tell the trombone section 1 & 2 play it, 1 & 3 play it or 2 & 3 play it, depending on circumstance. End of story.
> 
> D



Bingo.


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## Rodney Money (Aug 23, 2015)

Daryl said:


> I also like the ones from Percy Grainger. Although he was a nutter....
> 
> D


I've always liked, "A little faster?" Lol.
Back when I was in college, my professors told me a story of when Grainger visited the university as the guest composer for the week. He would visit our downtown shops of Boone, North Carolina trying on hats and walking out the door with them. He had no idea he was supposed to buy them. It cost the school of music around $500, and the Dean was pissed.


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## Rodney Money (Aug 23, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Bingo.


I think it was the "War of the Egos" on that day. Even Bernstein had issues.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 23, 2015)

This would never happen on a Los Angeles session because the conductor and the players all understand that time is money.


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## Saxer (Aug 23, 2015)

discussion like that during a recording session happens with amateur orchestras only. if something is not clear at a professional session it takes a second to ask the composer/arranger. if he's not there the conductor decides what to to. done.


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## Michael K. Bain (Aug 23, 2015)

Has working with samples ever made me look silly? 
Oh, a few times!


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## Rodney Money (Aug 23, 2015)

Michael K. Bain said:


> Has working with samples ever made me look silly?
> Oh, a few times!


Love it! Lol.


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## bryla (Aug 23, 2015)

Rodney Money said:


> I think it was the "War of the Egos" on that day. Even Bernstein had issues.



What does the player say at 1:55??


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## Rodney Money (Aug 23, 2015)

bryla said:


> What does the player say at 1:55??


I was wondering the same thing.


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## Daryl (Aug 23, 2015)

Rodney Money said:


> I think it was the "War of the Egos" on that day. Even Bernstein had issues.



That session was pretty much a nightmare. The players were a bit pissed off because he really didn't have a clue how the piece was supposed to be played, so by the time this section happened everyone was fed up with the whole thing.

D


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## Rodney Money (Aug 23, 2015)

Daryl said:


> That session was pretty much a nightmare. The players were a bit pissed off because he really didn't have a clue how the piece was supposed to be played, so by the time this section happened everyone was fed up with the whole thing.
> 
> D


Where did you recieve this inside information from? Sounds interesting. Is there more to this short video clip, news on the Internet, or something else?


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## Daryl (Aug 24, 2015)

Rodney Money said:


> Where did you recieve this inside information from? Sounds interesting. Is there more to this short video clip, news on the Internet, or something else?


I used to rent a flat from the leader of the orchestra when I was a student, so I got quite a lot of inside information from the players. There was also a half hour (I think) programme on the BBC, of which this was part.

D


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## Rodney Money (Aug 24, 2015)

Daryl said:


> I used to rent a flat from the leader of the orchestra when I was a student, so I got quite a lot of inside information from the players. There was also a half hour (I think) programme on the BBC, of which this was part.
> 
> D


That is truly awesome, Daryl. It's funny who we meet in life and the connections we make.


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## Daryl (Aug 24, 2015)

Rodney Money said:


> It's funny who we meet in life and the connections we make.



Agreed, and certainly my biggest regret has been that often I didn't appreciate what I was getting. However, I also had a few embarrassing moments where I didn't recognise someone, when I really should have. Once I asked John Williams (not the composer) if he was any good at the guitar. 

D


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## sleepy hollow (Aug 25, 2015)

Daryl said:


> Once I asked John Williams (not the composer) if he was any good at the guitar.


We need to come up with a name for "happenings" like that. 

Maybe "sweet mistake" or so... (like in "honest mistake"). I thought that was sweet.


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