# Why are film scores mixes so dark?



## Pier (Oct 11, 2021)

I've found that many scores I listen to are pretty dark, as in not very bright. It seems generally there's not much going above 10khz.

I think it was @jononotbono who made the joke that to make something sound very expensive you only had to roll off the high frequencies.

Is there a reason for this?

Maybe to make space for effects and dialogue?

Maybe so that it sounds less harsh when played very loud at theaters?

Is it just an aesthetic trend?


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## Beat Kaufmann (Oct 11, 2021)

Pier said:


> I've found that many scores I listen to are pretty dark, as in not very bright. It seems generally there's not much going above 10khz.
> 
> I think it was @jononotbono who made the joke that to make something sound very expensive you only had to roll off the high frequencies.
> 
> ...


You could also say that a lot of mixes in the net are mixed too light. It is especially noticeable that many people mix the strings very (too?) brightly. These people would notice that if they compared their mixes more with real orchestral mixes. Derived from this, the statement that an expensive sound comes with a greater "roll of" in the high frequencies is also somewhat true - but with the remark that the "roll of" was not made with an EQ, but has naturally resulted that way.

It's just a bit difficult when we don't talk about a concrete example. But in general, for me, the explanations above could explain your observation. 

Best
Beat


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## Scoremixer (Oct 11, 2021)

I'm not sure it is a trend. 

Any examples of recent scores that stand out to you as being overly dark? 

On the contrary, having some 10k+ air is generally a desirable thing (of course hugely context-dependant), particularly for music for picture. It's the 1-4k midrange that the trickiest for balance with DX and unflattering horn speakers in cinemas. A nice bit of air helps extend the sound around that and get it through the x-curve and all the other stuff going on. 

Shawn Murphy's mixes for John Powell in recent years are a good example of that. Not a natural orchestral high end, but one that sits well with all the other racket going on.


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## Pier (Oct 11, 2021)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> You could also say that a lot of mixes in the net are mixed too light. It is especially noticeable that many people mix the strings very (too?) brightly.


Yeah, definitely. Not only for film/tv music, but everything. It's a rookie mistake to have the high and low end way too hot.



Beat Kaufmann said:


> Derived from this, the statement that an expensive sound comes with a greater "roll of" in the high frequencies is also somewhat true - but with the remark that the "roll of" was not made with an EQ, but has naturally resulted that way.


Good point.

Orchestral music (eg: Deutsche Grammophon stuff) tends to be darker than say pop music. Maybe film/tv music is just imitating this sound, even when many scores are produced with samples and synths.


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## SupremeFist (Oct 11, 2021)

Maybe the hyped highs of trailer music are miseducating our ears for the rest.


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## Pier (Oct 11, 2021)

Scoremixer said:


> I'm not sure it is a trend.
> 
> Any examples of recent scores that stand out to you as being overly dark?
> 
> ...


I've heard it in plenty of stuff, but I was listening to the Hunter Killer soundtrack composed by Trevor Morris which made me start this thread.

This is the first track:



The last part of the track has more high end, but it tends to be pretty dark.


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## Trash Panda (Oct 11, 2021)

Scoremixer said:


> I'm not sure it is a trend.
> 
> Any examples of recent scores that stand out to you as being overly dark?
> 
> ...


Interestingly enough, there seems to be a psychoacoustic phenomenon of some kind where audio with a lot of competing mid-range elements are present can clear up by aggressively boosting the 8k/10k/12k+ region. Really cool trick that Kevin Goetz shared in his Youtube video about mixing symphonic metal and made a HUGE difference to my ears when I tried it.


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## Pier (Oct 11, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Interestingly enough, there seems to be a psychoacoustic phenomenon of some kind where audio with a lot of competing mid-range elements are present can clear up by aggressively boosting the 8k/10k/12k+ region. Really cool trick that Kevin Goetz shared in his Youtube video about mixing symphonic metal and made a HUGE difference to my ears when I tried it.


It sounds like the boost would somehow mask the middle end.

Can you share the video?


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## Trash Panda (Oct 11, 2021)

Pier said:


> It sounds like the boost would somehow mask the middle end.
> 
> Can you share the video?


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## Nando Florestan (Oct 11, 2021)

First of all, above 10 kHz there's only one octave that you can hear, probably even less. You are talking about air -- the final octave of human hearing. It almost doesn't matter. If you meant 1 kHz, okay, now we are talking about 4 or 5 octaves of treble, that matters.

Historically speaking, music was always dark, because hyping the treble was not what it was about. You must be used to pop music (and some rock), that's where the treble went up, and there are reasons to like that, but you've got things reversed: there's no trend towards dark music, the trend is for bright music in the last 60 years -- unnaturally bright.

Just go to an acoustic concert, one without electronic stuff, and see how bright that doesn't get.

The loudness war is another force driving up the brightness to near-pink-noise levels. It's gotta stop, I tell you.

And viva Deutsche Grammophon.


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## Pier (Oct 11, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> First of all, above 10 kHz there's only one octave that you can hear, probably even less.


Are you talking about the fundamental harmonic here?

Because there are many acoustic instruments that have a ton of harmonics above 10Khz. Brass, cymbals, snares, etc.



Nando Florestan said:


> Just go to an acoustic concert, one without electronic stuff, and see how bright that doesn't get.


Yeah, but concert halls are in a way "eqing" the sound of the orchestra. If you try to record say a trumpet as dry as possible it will be very harsh.


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## jcrosby (Oct 11, 2021)

Pier said:


> Are you talking about the fundamental harmonic here?
> 
> Because there are many acoustic instruments that have a ton of harmonics above 10Khz. Brass, cymbals, snares, etc.


He's referring to frequency bands. It's where you get things like a 1/3 octave band graphic EQ.. Some analyzers also have an octave, or 1/3 octave view as an example...





__





Octave bands | APMR


How to compute octave or third-octave band values from narrow band frequency values.



apmr.matelys.com





This does a decent job of explaining it without having to get too heavily into the math.


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## Nando Florestan (Oct 11, 2021)

Yeah, the point about the 10 kHz number is that, although in absolute numbers it looks huge, there is only one octave between that and 20 kHz which is more or less the highest frequency a young human can hear. I am 45 and I cannot hear above 16kHz more or less, so I have already lost a fifth from that octave.

So the main point is, if you are talking about treble, it begins much lower than that -- at about 1 kHz. You gotta watch the numbers because they are on a logarithmic scale, their meaning is not linear.



Basically, if you cut all frequencies above 10 kHz and play some music, you'll hear some difference, but much less than you seem to think.

In order to evaluate the presence or absence of treble in music examples, you need to look at 1 kHz+. 10 kHz+ is way too restricted.


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## Scoremixer (Oct 12, 2021)

Pier said:


> I've heard it in plenty of stuff, but I was listening to the Hunter Killer soundtrack composed by Trevor Morris which made me start this thread.
> 
> This is the first track:
> 
> ...



That sounds like an aesthetic choice on the part of the composition and production - it's drones, dark synths, pulses, string orchestra comprised of cellos and basses. As a mix it (and other cues from the soundtrack) sounds perfectly spectrally balanced to me.


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## davidson (Oct 12, 2021)

I can't hear above ~12k, and I put full blame on watching the prodigy live once too often. Who cares about mixing for bats and dogs anyway.


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## AudioLoco (Oct 12, 2021)

One of the elements contributing to this might be the fact we are used to hearing 95% of modern music which has been mastered in a "modern" fashion:
Very bright, lots of "air" everywhere, super compressed, which brings out often even more hi frequency content.
Film music is simply - not mastered, so a lot of the processing that usually would happen on the final mix doesn't occur. 
Also it doesn't have to compete in percieved volume (and therefore also brightness) with a track playing right before and right after (like on the radio, or streaming services), so these brightening elements are not there in general.


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## KEM (Oct 12, 2021)

Dialogue

That’s it, don’t think there’s anything else to it


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## Dietz (Oct 12, 2021)

Pier said:


> Is there a reason for this?


Oh, that's simple. Scoring mixers are tasteful, experienced people who know their craft.


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## Kent (Oct 12, 2021)

__





Recording - Mixonline






www.prosoundnetwork.com


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## Pier (Oct 12, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> So the main point is, if you are talking about treble, it begins much lower than that -- at about 1 kHz. You gotta watch the numbers because they are on a logarithmic scale, their meaning is not linear.


Yes, I'm well aware of the non linearities of the human hearing.

I'm simply saying that I've found film music, generally speaking, to be mixed/mastered darker than other genres of music. I only used 10khz as an example, not arguing what is or isn't considered treble.

And just to make my position abundantly clear, I'm not saying this is a bad thing at all. I personally prefer darker mixes.

It really annoys me when a film or tv show is too bright. This rarely happens with US and UK productions but I've found it very common in productions from other countries. Like a lot of content from European countries on Netflix. When this happens, I get the impression the mixing engineer doesn't have a lot of experience with tv/film and is probably more used to mixing music. Not only with the overall tone of the sound, but also how unnatural the dialogue sounds compared to good productions.


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## mscp (Oct 12, 2021)

Having mixed materials for over 10 years, I can say that one of my primary reasons to shelve (not roll of) very high frequencies as well as very low frequencies has to do with the amount of energy I want to dedicate to certain bands at given moments in the project. Depending on the project (especially acoustic-only recordings), it is a waste to boost or flatten frequencies where there's little to almost nothing happening at certain points in the mix. Energy is limited.

Also, high frequencies are "overtaken" by the rest of the spectrum as you increase loudness, so it is very possible that you're listening to a very loud material thinking: "why does the mix sound so dark?".

Then, you have the standing waves paradox...

Ok...I'm derailing...

One simple exercise I recommend all mixers to do is to listen to specific frequencies in isolation to see how much material contribute to the overall mix and which don't. Get rid of the marginal ones.

Tbh, there are a lot of reasons which together would turn my comment into a book. :(


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## mscp (Oct 12, 2021)

Pier said:


> It really annoys me when a film or tv show is too bright. This rarely happens with US and UK productions but I've found it very common in productions from other countries. Like a lot of content from European countries on Netflix. When this happens, I get the impression the mixing engineer doesn't have a lot of experience with tv/film and is probably more used to mixing music. Not only with the overall tone of the sound, but also how unnatural the dialogue sounds compared to good productions.


It really depends. Sure, sometimes it IS the mixer's fault. hehe. But, most likely it was on purpose for a specific reason or "forced down the engineer's throat".

Which movie/tv show in particular did you find the mix to be overly bright? Feel free to share. It'd be nice to have a look at one to see if I can spot the reason. I like these exercises.


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## Pier (Oct 12, 2021)

mscp said:


> Also, high frequencies are "overtaken" by the rest of the spectrum as you increase loudness, so it is very possible that you're listening to a very loud material thinking: "why does the mix sound so dark?".


Yes, this makes a lot of sense.

For example, pop music is rarely heard at very loud volumes. And I mean albums, not live music which is obviously mixed at every venue.



mscp said:


> Tbh, there are a lot of reasons which together would turn my comment into a book. :(


Please go on


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## Pier (Oct 12, 2021)

mscp said:


> It really depends. Sure, sometimes it IS the mixer's fault. hehe. But, most likely it was on purpose for a specific reason or "forced down the engineer's throat".
> 
> Which movie/tv show in particular did you find the mix to be overly bright? Feel free to share. It'd be nice to have a look at one to see if I can spot the reason. I like these exercises.


The last one I remember was a show called Katla on Netflix. It's a production from Iceland.


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## mscp (Oct 12, 2021)

Pier said:


> Yes, this makes a lot of sense.
> 
> For example, pop music is rarely heard at very loud volumes. And I mean albums, not live music which is obviously mixed at every venue.



Many youngsters like to listen to super loud music. As a youngster, I always had to boost the high and low frequencies in my setup depending where I was in. Flat almost never sounded "right". Acoustics...

At home, my TV / home theatre is calibrated to my liking.

Final mixes are simply just references of how well it would sound in most environments, not all.

Dealing with acoustics, standing waves, etc... in venues is a skill in its own. Props to all live mixers out there.



Pier said:


> The last one I remember was a show called Katla on Netflix. It's a production from Iceland.


I'll have a look at it. Thanks!


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## GtrString (Oct 12, 2021)

Film scores are not meant to stand alone, they should be designed to enhance other elements of the production. This could partly explain the darkness, as there should not be competing frequencies with dialogue or other sound fx. So a dip in the high mids around 1.5-2.5khz (which can add clarity to dialogue), and perhaps some boosted lows for impact (which in turn naturally darkens the high end of a mix). Some of the high end may be rolled off as well, as this tends to draw a lot of attention in a mix, especially if there are strings or synths with a lot of reverb, and perhaps also partly because virtual instruments tends to sound fake in this frequency range as well. I think it's mainly to get the score to sit well in the mix with other elements of the audio-visual production.


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## babylonwaves (Oct 12, 2021)

Pier said:


> I'm simply saying that I've found film music, generally speaking, to be mixed/mastered darker than other genres of music.


There is a lot of music in a 2h film. Your ears get fatigue and that has a lot to do with the upper frequency range. I often feel fatigue when I listen to an entire album of pop music. this doesn’t happen so much with film music. It’s to combat that effect and of course masking.


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## KEM (Oct 12, 2021)

I think another reason why film scores are a bit darker is because the human ear naturally focus on higher sounds, even if they’re quieter, so it would make sense to roll off the highs so that the dialogue is what your ear focuses on and not the music


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## robgb (Oct 12, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> Yeah, the point about the 10 kHz number is that, although in absolute numbers it looks huge, there is only one octave between that and 20 kHz which is more or less the highest frequency a young human can hear. I am 45 and I cannot hear above 16kHz more or less, so I have already lost a fifth from that octave.
> 
> So the main point is, if you are talking about treble, it begins much lower than that -- at about 1 kHz. You gotta watch the numbers because they are on a logarithmic scale, their meaning is not linear.
> 
> ...



Further proof that my ears are shot. Especially the left one.


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## KerrySmith (Oct 12, 2021)

When I listen to the 70s-90s John Williams (and contemporaries) scores, they do sound a lot brighter and more focused to my ears, next to the majority of 21st-Century orchestral scores in my library. There are likely a lot of reasons that I could speculate on, but I don’t care to get into them, and I do agree with the OP that orchestral scores from the last 2 decades seem darker than scores from the decades preceding, and darker than “popular music” at large.


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## Pier (May 2, 2022)

Pier said:


> The last one I remember was a show called Katla on Netflix. It's a production from Iceland.


I saw the indie horror movie Possessor the other day and it was way too bright on my home theater.

Very interesting movie otherwise.

The soundtrack itself is not overly bright. Quite subtle actually.


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