# Logic and DP (and other DAW software)



## gsilbers (Nov 30, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Tue Nov 30 said:


> IMHO DP, Cubase, Sonar if you go PC, and Logic Pro are all fine choices with different strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> 2 points:
> 1. I think even its detractor's will agree that Logic Studio is the package that if you were to buy no third party stuff, comes the most complete with fx, software instruments, and loops to make good sounding stuff. So if you go with Logic, my advice is ti spend some time learning it BEFORE you start buying a lot of other stuff.
> ...



not to get sidetracked here or start a feud but what points do you see that logic outperforms DP? 

i use logic because i started doing electronic music (berklee used logic 6 for synthesis related classes)
and i always saw DP as having an advantage with the chunks and tempo/video sync stuff.


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## Fumbles (Nov 30, 2010)

*Re: Some questions for the experts here*

*Ian* and *wst3*, due to a recent 2 level cervical fusion surgery I had about 3 weeks ago, thanks to an injury I received on the set of "24" that knocked me out and also pushed two discs out the rear of my spine into my spinal cord........... :lol: .......I am currently sitting in the waiting room of my surgeon. I had the first CT Scan post surgery this morning...... it was pushed up because I developed some radical neck pain the other night, we want to make sure nothing came unglued.........other than me....... :mrgreen: 

So, no time to listen to the tracks right now. I'll peruse the new VI post *wst3* and carry on with your query* gsilbers*, I'll catch up with you guys tonight.

Really looking forward to hearing the GPO cues.

Thanks.


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## Ian Dorsch (Nov 30, 2010)

Oh man! Sorry to hear about the injury, and good luck with your appointment!


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## wst3 (Dec 1, 2010)

Good luck with a speedy recovery!


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## Ashermusic (Dec 1, 2010)

gsilbers @ Tue Nov 30 said:


> Ashermusic @ Tue Nov 30 said:
> 
> 
> > IMHO DP, Cubase, Sonar if you go PC, and Logic Pro are all fine choices with different strengths and weaknesses.
> ...



I can only answer this by what users tell me as I have never owned DP so I think it would be better if someone who used or uses DP and switched to Logic completely or partly answers this. 

What I have been told by switchers is that the reasons why they now prefer Logic are:
1. 64 bit.
2. Better stability.
3. Better CPU efficiency with software instruments.
4. Better included plugins and software instruments.
5. Better MIDI feel.
6. Better notation.
7. Apple makes the computers and the OS, so Logic has a long term advantage in that it also is made by Apple.

As I say, not vouching for any of this because I have never owned DP.


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## JohnG (Dec 1, 2010)

*Re: Some questions for the experts here*

Perhaps its your role as a Logic guy that leads you to perceive things the way you do Jay? 

I have yet to see / hear of a single thing that you can do in Logic that you can't do in DP. I am not talking about work flow, which differs; I'm talking about writing music and working with picture.

I think the biggest difference, by far, is 64 bit. New users seem to like the included samples and instruments as well, so as far as new adopters, that's bound to be a plus.

Typically, I find that those familiar with one or the other will at least initially see things on the less-familiar software as illogical and cumbersome. Perhaps that's because users get accustomed to the "illogical and cumbersome" aspects of the main axe and fail to notice them anymore.

The "owned by Apple" in my view is a red herring -- neither an advantage or disadvantage. It's good as long as Apple is interested in professional audio software, but that is increasingly far outside Apple's core consumer device / software business. So we'll see.


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## dcoscina (Dec 1, 2010)

Hi John. I think I'll throw my 2 cents in. As you guys know, I'm working on a film score at present. Very modest project, a lot of creative freedom. I have been going back and forth between DP7 and Logic 9 for various cues. I started working more with DP7 because I was liking its set up where video was concerned- like the click track options, chunks, V-Rack, etc. 

However, I found that it was crashing a whole lot over one cue this weekend and what should have taken me 3 hours took the whole damn day to finish because DP kept crashing. I like the program a lot but something that all of us need when we're working is STABILITY. I know John uses Bidule and slave computers which gets around this issue. I don't have that luxury at present so I need a single system that is stable. Logic 9 is more stable in my experience. And for some reason, it mixes better too. Not sure why. 

The other day, mostly because I was interested to see whether Logic could be a good enough platform for music that is not metronome or duple meter driven, I threw together that little action cue. It was an exercise to see if Logic could do it. No problems. In fact, to my surprise, I have received a lot of positive feedback from that little ditty. So I would say, based on my experience, Logic edges out DP in the areas that are most crucial to me- STABILITY and the 64 bit option that allows me to use all of my RAM without relying on Bidule or VE PRO (which I believe is sort of the culprit regarding crashes- once I de-coupled it from DP it behaved).

OT- I just downloaded PT9 from Avid and I have the same old shit problems. After running just a few VI tracks, Vienna Ensemble Pro, and a couple vocals, that stupid "change buffer" nonsense appeared. Mind you, I did only choose the upgrade file and not the complete install package. Maybe I will wipe my system and re-install it fresh. It's possible some garbage from PT8 is still lingering around. 

I have to get used to PT9 before I slam it though, but based on first impressions, it's not gonna take any main work away from Logic 9 anytime soon!! Logic rocks!


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## Ashermusic (Dec 1, 2010)

*Re: Some questions for the experts here*



JohnG @ Wed Dec 01 said:


> Perhaps its your role as a Logic guy that leads you to perceive things the way you do Jay?
> 
> I have yet to see / hear of a single thing that you can do in Logic that you can't do in DP. I am not talking about work flow, which differs; I'm talking about writing music and working with picture.
> 
> ...



John did you miss that I wrote, "*As I say, not vouching for any of this because I have never owned DP."*


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## dcoscina (Dec 1, 2010)

I think Sculpture is also amazing. I know there's always Omnisphere but I use both. The quality of it is amazingly detailed. 

I guess you could say I'm a little biased. My first real sequencer was Notator SL 3.1 on the Atari 540ST (Steinberg's 12 was technically the first but it sucked). I didn't use Logic in the PC years and switched to Mastertrack Pro/Encore but found it limiting in many ways. I should have stuck with Logic but for some reason didn't at that time. I know a concert composer friend of mine who STILL writes his scores on Logic 5 on the PC. It's a pretty heavy program. 

I'm not dissing DP. Over the past few weeks I really began enjoying it and seeing the value in its set-up. But, as mentioned, crashes will make me quickly lose faith in a tool. I also find myself more "musical" when using Logic. I think the pre-roll count off leading into a new section helps the composer continue their thought process better than just starting fresh on the new section. Unless you're doing Stravinsky like changes, it helps to hear the material leading up to the new section. 

I have to thank Jay and Nick for giving me some great info on shortcuts and general navigation that has improved my work flow dramatically....

sorry, now I'm on a tangent


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## Fumbles (Dec 3, 2010)

When you say you use PT to mix stuff with...... how does that work? Do you make up all the VI and sample library parts up in Logic, record them and then import the individual bounced tracks into a Pro Tools session and reassemble the whole thing? Does the entire session just import into PT?

I would love to know the process you use in a manner I can digest. I am thinking I will have to go this route in order to get higher VI counts. I even dropped for the Complete Production Toolkit, although I got a great crossgrade price on it. Still around $600 all said and done just to go to PT9 and the CPTK.

Anyway, any info would be great. Thanks.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 3, 2010)

> Sculpture sounds so bloody clean you could eat off of it



Yup. And I have to do some more thinking about what makes samples sound less clean than synths. One thing I've done with the EWI is record the live sound together with the MIDI. That adds breaths, finger noises, an other stuff. It would be interesting if you could add that to synths.


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## JohnG (Dec 3, 2010)

*Re: Some questions for the experts here*



Ashermusic @ 1st December 2010 said:


> John did you miss that I wrote, "*As I say, not vouching for any of this because I have never owned DP."*



No.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 3, 2010)

*Re: Some questions for the experts here*



JohnG @ Fri Dec 03 said:


> Ashermusic @ 1st December 2010 said:
> 
> 
> > John did you miss that I wrote, "*As I say, not vouching for any of this because I have never owned DP."*
> ...



Then why question what I wrote? I only reported what users told me and stressed that I did not know how much or little was accurate. 

I am not invested in people switching from DP or any other app to Logic and I do not initiate it, I only help those who have already decided to do so. For instance, Craig and Bruce Miller both had already bought Logic and started to use it before they ever asked me for help with it.

If someone asks for advice, I will tell them what I know about Logic's strengths and deficiencies and what I have been told are the strengths and deficiencies by users of another app.

I can't see why you would have a problem with any of that .


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## dadek (Dec 3, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Dec 03 said:


> Yup. And I have to do some more thinking about what makes samples sound less clean than synths. One thing I've done with the EWI is record the live sound together with the MIDI. That adds breaths, finger noises, an other stuff. It would be interesting if you could add that to synths.



I find a little amp/speaker modeling goes a long way to help this. I mostly use hardware for this but some judicious use of Speakerphone2 or some other modeler can help.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 3, 2010)

dadek, I've also found that running synths through a little keyboard amp I have helps.

I discovered that - in fact I posted about this - when I ran the analog synth in my EWI 3020m through the amp. Probably 15 years ago I tried the synth and it didn't grab me, so I just used it as a controller. But my taste has sure changed, because it sounds huge.


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## dcoscina (Dec 4, 2010)

Funny. I just started playing with Cubase 5 again this morning for the very reason of trying out those VST Expression again. I really like navigating around using them. However, I'm not digging trying to find SMPTE bar offset. 

Oh, one thing Logic puzzles me on is in 64bit mode, I cannot find PLAY at all. It doesn't see it unless it's in 32 bit mode. Wazzap with that????
Even the 32 bit bridge doesn't see PLAY. $*%($%*]


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## dcoscina (Dec 4, 2010)

If DP in fact goes 64 bit that could clear up some issues I have with it currently.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 4, 2010)

dcoscina @ Sat Dec 04 said:


> Funny. I just started playing with Cubase 5 again this morning for the very reason of trying out those VST Expression again. I really like navigating around using them. However, I'm not digging trying to find SMPTE bar offset.
> 
> Oh, one thing Logic puzzles me on is in 64bit mode, I cannot find PLAY at all. It doesn't see it unless it's in 32 bit mode. Wazzap with that????
> Even the 32 bit bridge doesn't see PLAY. $*%($%*]



1. How recent is your version of Play?

2. Did you open Logic in 32 bit so it could re-scan and find the 32 bit Play plugin?

3. If you open AU Manager, do you see it?

4. Are you looking in the group of plugins that are in the 32 bit folder?


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## fido94 (Dec 4, 2010)

dcoscina @ Sat Dec 04 said:


> Oh, one thing Logic puzzles me on is in 64bit mode, I cannot find PLAY at all. It doesn't see it unless it's in 32 bit mode. Wazzap with that????



weird. it works fine for me.


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## dcoscina (Dec 4, 2010)

fido94 @ Sat Dec 04 said:


> dcoscina @ Sat Dec 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, one thing Logic puzzles me on is in 64bit mode, I cannot find PLAY at all. It doesn't see it unless it's in 32 bit mode. Wazzap with that????
> ...



I do not see it in the AU plug folder but I will open up Logic in 32 bit mode first and re-scan it. I will try that Jay. Thanks for the help! 


To be honest, Cubase has some nice work flow to it but ultimately I'm a Logic dude. I like the VST expressions but I'm sure there's something around the corner in Logic for the equivalent.


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## dcoscina (Dec 4, 2010)

yeah that worked Jay. Thanks. Although PLAY is hitting my CPU hard on the first Core, even on playback. It's spiking quite a bit and it's the latest build. Probably smarter to use it as a stand-alone

Do you know whether PLAY accesses all of the system RAM when it's not hosted in Logic?


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## Ashermusic (Dec 4, 2010)

dcoscina @ Sat Dec 04 said:


> yeah that worked Jay. Thanks. Although PLAY is hitting my CPU hard on the first Core, even on playback. It's spiking quite a bit and it's the latest build. Probably smarter to use it as a stand-alone
> 
> Do you know whether PLAY accesses all of the system RAM when it's not hosted in Logic?



If it has its memory sever on, yes, up to 10 GB.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 4, 2010)

To underline what Jay is saying: as with several plug-ins, you have to open Logic in 32-bit mode to get Play to load the first time. After that it will show up in 64-bit mode.


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