# Would you score your 1st feature film for free?



## sstern (Dec 5, 2013)

Hey guys,

So, after scoring around 20 short films (for money and for free/student films) I got a feature film with no music budget. I struggled to get 'any' money out of it but no luck. Would you score it if you were in my shoes? What are cons and pros, in your opinion? Meanwhile, I could think of credit, experience, expanded network but also a lot of time spent out of work for money.


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## sluggo (Dec 5, 2013)

Yes, if you don't someone else will.
BUT…retain EVERYTHING.
You OWN publishing, writing, of course, and all rights to do ANYTHING with the music as you choose. 
All you do is simply give the film makers a license to use your music in their movie only.

They should pay any production costs. (Live musicians, studio etc.)

If the movie gets any kind of TV deal you will make some $ on royalties. Then you can tell them how much you made and they will consider paying to OWN the music next time. 

If they sell the movie and they say that the distributor NEEDS to own the music then 2 things 
1. (Bullshit.) They do not NEED to own it.
2. Have them pay to own it. Because they obviously figured out that the royalties will make them money. 

Have a nice day!


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## sstern (Dec 5, 2013)

Thanks for advices, sluggo ! Great stuff.


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## FriFlo (Dec 5, 2013)

Only, if it's a non profit student film. If they try to make money with it, it is unacceptable, that they don't even offer you some participation in the earnings of the film. that is what I would do as a producer, if I cannot pay. But just thinking you could get someone decent to do it for free is an insult to you! Don't do it! If you think you can get some other job as follow up!? You won't! Scoring a feature film is not done in 2 weeks! If done right, it is 2 to 3 months of non stop work. If you don't put in that much effort, it will not become a good advertiser for you. If you do ... How the hell can you spend at least 2 months on something exclusively, without earning money?
But actually, these kinds of posts make me angry! How in the world will producers ever learn to respect composers, if people like you even wonder about simple things like that!?


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## sstern (Dec 5, 2013)

FriFlo

I totally understand your point as I have an inside conflict myself. I remember Mr. Zimmer advice on one of the topics here that scoring anything is really good for a starting composer no matter what, even while not getting paid for that, as you are doing what you love and you gain experience. So as I understand, you don't agree with that. Interesting point.


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## JJP (Dec 5, 2013)

I'm with FriFlo on this one. They can at least cut you in on some small percentage of the earnings if it is a for-profit film. The problem is that if you do it for free you're sending the message to the producer that they can expect to get good music without paying for it. This is a bad precedent, and I've seen it undermine composers in the past.

I've had people argue, "But I can get someone to do it for free." My response is usually something like, "Of course you can. But you have to ask why that person is trying to work for free when anyone with real experience knows it costs at least $X to deliver what you're asking with any quality."


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## choc0thrax (Dec 5, 2013)

sstern @ Thu Dec 05 said:


> What are cons and pros, in your opinion? Meanwhile, I could think of credit, experience, expanded network but also a lot of time spent out of work for money.



I'd say do it. You're right, the pros are numerous: you'll get credit on likely a terrible film, the experience of being someone's slave, the expanded network with people who now view your work value as zero. 

The small con of making no money for a long period of time isn't so bad. Food and shelter are overrated.

Although, I am kidding. I think this depends on a few factors which include: Are you under 25? Does your family have oil money?

I'm not sure why the fact that it's a feature film is swaying your decision. Wouldn't scoring a short film for free make more sense? If someone came up and asked me to help them for free for 3 weeks, I don't think I'd say "sorry, only if it's for 3 months." If you're gonna let people do you in the butt, why choose the lube-free route?

If you've never scored a feature film I guess I can understand wanting to just for the experience.


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## Ed (Dec 5, 2013)

sstern @ Thu Dec 05 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So, after scoring around 20 short films (for money and for free/student films) I got a feature film with no music budget. I struggled to get 'any' money out of it but no luck. Would you score it if you were in my shoes? What are cons and pros, in your opinion? Meanwhile, I could think of credit, experience, expanded network but also a lot of time spent out of work for money.



I must have heard all the sides to this for years now. 

I have decided that it all DEPENDS. Which may not seem like it helps but it should.... It depends on the quality of the project. Is it some amazingly awesome creative project you always wanted to work on? Or is it some crappy low budget film made by school students for youtube? It depends on the "quality" of the producers, how nice are they, do they seem like they will go somewhere, whats their plans for the future? etc. It also depends if providing your time to it for free, or next to free, is going to put you on the streets! It also depends on where you are in your career which will mean in 5 years the answers to all this will probably be different to what they are now. 

As others said I would make sure you try and retain the rights to the music as a non-exclusive agreement with them if you did decide to, even if you don't plan on using it again for anything else, just out of principal. You can always tell them they can buy the exclusive rights in the future. Always try and get some money if you can, even if its just £100 or whatever, but as I say, it all depends. There are some films which are very much labours of love where pretty much everyone is working for free, donating their time and gear, so in that case if you like the project its not so bad. Its when others are being paid and they expect you to work for free where the eye rolling starts.

Working on something for free should not be taken lightly, but can be a very good business decision to do so depending on the context, or just a really worthwhile creative decision . I don't think it can be summed up always as black and white. especially if you've already scored 20 shorts for no money you really should look at the question in this light. 

*What is the benefit to me from a business perspective and from a creative perspective?* The answer to if you should do it for free will come from how you feel about that.


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## jleckie (Dec 5, 2013)

How about this. You tell them no, the next guy says no, the NEXT guy says no. 

Do you think that MAYBE - just maybe they will find money?

You betcha that when they rented their cameras or had someone do professional color timing that they paid for that. So why don't they pay for music? It's BECAUSE they get people to say YES all the time.


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## rgames (Dec 5, 2013)

The value of networking declines quickly when that network is introduced to you as the guy who works for free.

Working for free is what you do to have fun with people already in your network.

If anybody else is getting paid then you should get paid too. People in your network will make sure that's the case.

If others are getting paid and you're not, is that a network you want to get into? One that takes advantage of composers?

rgames


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## givemenoughrope (Dec 5, 2013)

I'm not saying you should ask them but what do you think would happen if you asked them for $100? Just as a hypothetical.


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## jaredcowing (Dec 5, 2013)

If you do it for free, at least make sure they see it as you doing them a favor, not the other way around. If they think they were helping you by letting you score this, then when they get a bigger budget for the next film they still won't offer to pay you. They'll find someone who charges more and think they've "upgraded" composers. If they see you as someone who did them a favor but would normally charge more, they might stick with you and pay more the next time.

You need to find out if cast & crew got paid. If they did, they have money but just think they can get free music- which they probably can.


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## midi_controller (Dec 5, 2013)

jaredcowing @ Thu Dec 05 said:


> You need to find out if cast & crew got paid. If they did, they have money but just think they can get free music- which they probably can.



That doesn't necessarily mean anything though. I've worked on projects where I was literally the only one getting paid for it. If the director and/or producers really want you to work on their film, they will find a way to pay you.

I wouldn't work for free on a feature because I need to eat. I wouldn't expect anyone to just give up 6 - 12 weeks of their lives like that, unless there were some other _really_ strong incentives. And if they have no music budget, what kind of quality is the rest of the film?


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## Arbee (Dec 6, 2013)

sluggo @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> Yes, if you don't someone else will.
> BUT…retain EVERYTHING.
> You OWN publishing, writing, of course, and all rights to do ANYTHING with the music as you choose.
> All you do is simply give the film makers a license to use your music in their movie only.
> ...


+1 on this. IMO becoming a shareholder and sharing in the risk and the reward, rather than a "for hire", is not such a bad thing if it helps get you going.

.


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## fiestared (Dec 6, 2013)

Hello,
I would say NEVER ! EACH time I did something for free, each time I had to regret it. You'll never get anything from people daring to ask a "free music", only this sentence in itself is enough (a musician, it's years, years, years of work, of sacrifice etc, plus all the gear, the area where to make Music, insurance, food, I could write a book about what you have to pay to only make one second of Music...) A long time ago a"friend" asked me to record for free a guitar part for him, because of the "no money bla bla bla", I did it, one day he got a deal and....(snares roll) because he tough he had to give me more money than for a normal musician, he didn't ask me and took an other guy... NEVER again... In the film business, they know they can have anything for free from musician, you don't have any idea how the people in the "image" consider people in the "sound" I have worked 6 years for "Avid Digidesign" so, I know very well... 
Take care of your talent, respect it.
F.red


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## Rctec (Dec 6, 2013)

I didn't read all the replies, so I'm sorry if I'm being redundant.

...If it's a real feature film, it is worth something. It's a thing, a product that has a worth. If they have no upfront money left, they should give you all the rights to the publishing income, plus gross boxoffice points. (If they ever get a big distribution deal, it'll become tricky to hang on to owning your music outright. It's one of the precedents studios don't want to break. They can't really own only part of a movie - which it would be, if someone else has the ownership to the music). You can always agree to cap it at a certain amount that you and they feel comfortable with. But - when I said "for the experience", I didn't include people who don't give you the possibility of at least earning something 'downstream' from your work, even if it's deferred into future payments.
But...It's a bit like lending a friend money. You have to be prepared to write it off, since most of those kind of projects will never actually make any money, see the light of day, etc...unless you think it's really good, an overlooked gem that you feel passionate about, all you'll get is the experience and fun of writing something to picture. If it's not a successful film -critically or box-office, you'll get zero mileage and exposure. But it might be an opportunity to write a great piece of music that someone else might hear and give you a proper job from. Stranger things have happened...

-H-


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## Martin K (Dec 6, 2013)

Hi

You seem to have been doing your share of (some free) scores with 20 shorts to get your started, so I would say no to this unless it's a non-profit film. Yeah somebody else will do it if you don't, but let them devalue themselves. In my opinion, you have enough experience under your belt to be worth more than nothing 

BUT, there's a lot of variables here to consider. It may be worth investing some time in this if you can get back-end royalties or build good relationships for the future.

Good luck anyway whatever you decide to do.

best,
Martin


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Dec 6, 2013)

Doing a short film for free is like what? 1-2 weeks (if that) of a bit of effort.

A bloody feature length for free??

No friggin way in hell would I do that!


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## dinerdog (Dec 6, 2013)

My first reaction would be no, but I agree with Sluggo and Hans in that it "depends". 

Depends on how much torture is involved (is the timeframe to long? will you be making revisions till your sick of it etc.) Is it a "feature" credit, but also (depending on your past deals for the small films) it's important to get the business and negotiating practice for projects that are$$$ poor. Get used to the "business" aspect, keeping (or splitting if necessary) the publishing, getting cue sheets done, submitted and tracked.

Of course if you like the film, so much the better. There's so much that can be learned, including how not to be abused. If you can't get writers and publishing in a deal memo, then it should be easier to walk. Also it "seems" that no two movie deals are ever quite the same, so...Good luck. : >


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## kclements (Dec 6, 2013)

It would take a lot to get me to agree to do it for free. It just devalues what you are doing - and what you are adding to the film. I'm not saying there aren't any circumstances where I would consider it, but they would be very few.

I think this from Hemmingway applies to us composers as well:

...where major publications expect writers to work for free in exchange for “exposure.” The result, unsurprisingly, is mediocre writing at best — not because good writing is motivated by money, but because nothing demotivates a writer more than feeling like her writing is vacant filler for pages meant not to delight or enrich the reader but to sell advertising.

http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2013/12/04/hemingway-on-not-writing-for-free/

cheers - 
kc


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## SamGarnerStudios (Dec 6, 2013)

For me personally, if the project was of great value, then I would, but if the project was of great value then they probably had a budget to make it great value, therefore they should have some kind of budget to pay you. Unless it's some groundbreaking artistic movie that is actually worth the time, which would be the exception. Not saying Paranormal activity is the greatest movie ever but wasn't it made with like a 5,000$ budget? I think it comes down to if something was actually worth your time, then they probably had the budget to make it good enough for it to be worth your time. And what is a feature technically? I know people at my college that do full length films, but that doesn't mean they're great.


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## sstern (Dec 9, 2013)

Thanks for the great info, guys! 

I'll speak to them asking for the whole publishing thing, points from potential distribution and non-exclusive license. Lets see how they respond and I'll base my decision on their answers..


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## Harzmusic (Dec 10, 2013)

I am currently in the process working on my first feature film. Do I do it for free? No, we agreed on a small three-digit symbolic fee, since the budget actually IS very small (I know that for sure, because it's an independent project led by students and I had insight in their finances) and the project itself is very ambitious. But if it turned out now, that they couldn't pay me due to adverse circumstances, I wouldn't bail out of the project or even take legal action. 
I know that they absolutely would be willing to pay me appropriately if they had the money, so it actually COULD lead to paid follow up work. 
Here in germany the legal situation is a little different, since there is legally no such thing as total buyout. You can't sell your right on royalties (even though there is a way to split them), but you can grant exclusive rights. I think nobody should ever do that for any low paid job...

Some questions I think about when I consider a low paid or free project and try to determine the "value" of the project (aside from the "is it a cool project" thing):

a) Are the people working on the project talented, providing quality work and ambitious to go for a career in the field themselves?
b) Do the people working on the project know, what your work is worth and that you wouldn't work for free if there was a bigger budget? Otherwise it's the well known "work for free, get more unpaid jobs". 
c) Does the project give you the chance to show your craft at your very best? If the music isn't very good, the project won't help you at all.
d) Are the people working on the project actually ambitious about the marketing and distribution of the film? I mean like, with really putting work into it? I've workend on films where the team made no effort whatsoever to bring the film into festivals and hardly even promoted it online. They just moved on to the next one. I feel like this isn't uncommon on independent projects, where no specific person is in charge of the marketing. But that kind of project doesn't get anyone anywhere. 
e) Can YOU afford working on the project?

I'm sure there could be more of this kind of questions but right now, I can't think of another one.


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## Rv5 (Dec 10, 2013)

If the film goes on to make money, you should get some.

A project I did recently, while mostly for fun, was also intended as a money maker. I didn't pay players, because I couldn't. So I explained the idea, the concept, and offered a contract that ensures they are paid if the project makes money. Everyone knows where they stand, and if money is made, everyone gets some, it's like an investment they can take or leave and they understand it is a risk - might not make money, but if it does, you'll get some, if money is made and not paid, you have a contract to stand by.

I find people respond really well to this - it means projects can happen without ripping anyone off.

You decide how much your music is worth by how much you sell it for.

Talk, be open, honest and make sure you're comfortable. Sorting out that you get money if the film makes some is reasonable and fair.


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## Ryan (Dec 10, 2013)

Yes, I did a lot for free. 

5-8 years later this guys/girls have also followed their dreams. Guess what? Most of them are directors or audio-engineers working in the TV, film business now.

Guess what? They keep calling the guy who did the stuff for free back then. Now I get paid so I could buy some bread, butter and milk. 

This have been, and still is my one ticket into the heaven of composing for film, TV and games. 

Best of luck.
Ryan


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