# To Mogami or not to Mogami?



## cc64 (May 24, 2014)

Hi,

just bought a 500 series Lachapell preamp and an 8 slot API Lunchbox. The lunchbox only has 2 DB25 interfaces for ins and outs. Wich brings my existential question...

The guys at the audio store are advising me to go for Mogami cables versus HOSA. I agree that HOSA is bad but is it justified to spend around 400$ for 2 DB25 to XLR cables?

Anything in between that would do a good job? Is the Mogami "thing" just hype?

Best,

Claude


----------



## wst3 (May 24, 2014)

There are tons of alternatives between Hosa and Mogami, and realistically there is nothing wrong with Hosa... at least the Hosa assemblies I've used in the past have been fine.

The biggest reason to use Mogami or Gotham or Canare is the ease of assembly. Yeah, turns out they really are easier to use! Which isn't exactly hype.

But if you aren't assembling them then that's not such a big deal.

Things to consider 

- for a low Z source feeding a high Z input capacitance isn't an issue unless it is silly high, and none of the commonly used cables have silly high capacitance.

- star quad cables can make a difference in high noise environments, but for short runs in reasonably quiet environments it probably isn't necessary.

- assembly is probably the most important factor. I prefer 'real' vs molded connectors, but there is some evidence that molded connectors can be more reliable. Just don't expect to repair them<G>.

If it were me I'd probably assemble my own, or buy something reasonably priced<G>.


----------



## JohnG (May 24, 2014)

I'm no engineer, and I scoffed for years at expensive cables like Mogami. Then I finally bought some and was surprised to hear an audible difference.


----------



## wst3 (May 25, 2014)

perhaps my post was too dismissive, or at least too brief (now there's a shocker!)

I did not mean to suggest that there are no audible differences between cables, and especially cable assemblies.

I would suggest that differences between cable assemblies are potentially more audible, really cheap connectors can cause problems right out of the box. Even worse, as they degrade slowly they can change the sound and you'll not notice because the change occurs so slowly.

Once you reach a certain point there are subtle differences, and we don't yet have reliable measurements to explain why, or even quantify them. Let me tell you how much that stinks!!

Here's the catch: the entire signal chain has to be up to the task in order for a good listener to hear the differences!

As with almost everything else related to music production, YMMV is the key. Remember that your ears are part of the signal chain...

When I was but a young pup I assumed that anything that was orders of magnitude more expensive than what I already owned was pure snake oil. Then a studio where I worked picked up a Neuman U-67.

Dang... I was wrong (hate it when that happens!) There was a really good reason to spend over $1K on a microphone. Who knew?

Lots of folks it turns out. All you need is an open mind, maybe a little inquisitiveness? Definitely a willingness to learn.

So I went on a rampage. This was the 1980s, and it was simple enough to borrow everything from microphones and monitors to cables from the local pro-audio store. And I did.

At first my experiments were a bust, because I was borrowing only one piece at a time. The GM at the store figured out what I was up to and loaned me an entire rig, and then we started substituting parts. It was a real eye opener.

And as I listened more I learned more, and my ears became more attuned to the subtle differences.

In most cases it was not that X sounded better than Y, but rather that X sounded different than Y, and I preferred X. In some cases I never could decide which one I preferred.

So let me qualify my previous answer, please...

There can be audible differences between two examples of any component in the studio, including cables, and even connectors.

That said, the first priority for cable assemblies must be construction. Are the parts (cable and connectors) of sufficient quality? Are they assembled well? Are there strain reliefs, cold solder joints, etc?

Once you weed out the poorly made assemblies then you have to listen, in your facility if at all possible.

And if you hear a difference you need to decide if the difference is one of Quality or quality. In other words, does X sound better than Y, or just different. And if you have a preference then you make that last decision - is it worth the difference in cost?

It's really no different than comparing two sample libraries... which one works best for you when you take into account all the factors, including cost?


----------



## cc64 (May 25, 2014)

Bill, John,

Thanks!

The guy at the audio store insisted on the better shielding that you get with mogami because of a wiring scheme that involves a fourth wire...I was quite interested in that notion because my studio is in a building right next to the CBC building which has huge broadcasting antennae on top. And a few of my colleagues have to shield their speakers to avoid hearing the news in their mix ; )

It's funny because i've been totally ITB for so long, at least 15 years, and when i finished my last MOW i told my writing partner "Man i'm tired of browsing through i.e. Omnisphere presets(no offense Eric P.). Wanna go back to plugging a mike into a good preamp and experiment with different live instruments and found objects...

Ends up being like home renovations you start out with a 2000$ budget and with all the "might as wells" it costs triple ; )

Nevertheless exciting.

Best,

Claude


----------



## JohnG (May 25, 2014)

wst3 @ 25th May 2014 said:


> Here's the catch: the entire signal chain has to be up to the task in order for a good listener to hear the differences!



You know -- my post was too brief too because I should have written what Bill wrote (see above) as well. I didn't realise about the cables until I had a major upgrade to speakers, amplifier, and D/A converter.

Then I tried Mogami cables and I could hear it.


----------



## Simplesly (May 26, 2014)

cc64 @ Sat May 24 said:


> Hi,
> 
> just bought a 500 series Lachapell preamp and an 8 slot API Lunchbox. The lunchbox only has 2 DB25 interfaces for ins and outs. Wich brings my existential question...
> 
> ...



Yes, they are better than hosa. Aside from the better shielding they have a superior build quality. Which means you won't be replacing them anytime soon. Good Dsub harnesses are expensive, but try to convince you pro audio dude to give you a break. They may not, because cables are one of the only places they can still make any profit (which is commission for them), but it's still worth a try. Hosa cables are for beginners who don't want to spend a lot of dough, or for when you need something "in a pinch..." 

Also look into ProCo or those Avid ones if they still make them (as long as the lachapelle is a tascam db25 pinout). If you're in LA there is a guy (or there was) named Chris Papasteohanou who builds really great snakes for what i always thought were reasonable prices.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 26, 2014)

My wonderful friend Lee Watkins was one of the top employees at Hosa. His boss, Sho Sato, gave me huge breaks on audio and MIDI cables, which I used to use by the box load. Out of about 100 cables, two broke over 10 years. They also had a lifetime guarantee.

They put out an expensive line of premium silver shielded cables that got good reviews from some top pros. They gave me a couple. I couldn't hear an iota of difference.


----------



## Simplesly (May 26, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon May 26 said:


> My wonderful friend Lee Watkins was one of the top employees at Hosa. His boss, Sho Sato, gave me huge breaks on audio and MIDI cables, which I used to use by the box load. Out of about 100 cables, two broke over 10 years. They also had a lifetime guarantee.
> 
> They put out an expensive line of premium silver shielded cables that got good reviews from some top pros. They gave me a couple. I couldn't hear an iota of difference.



I hear you Larry - audio differences between various brands of cables are fairly difficult to distinguish. Much harder than say, different mics for example. But, i challenge you to find one professional recording studio that's wired with primarily hosa cables. True, most studios build their own in-house, but there's a reason why they use mogami or canari quad bulk to do the job...


ps I own a bunch of hosa Zaolla silverline, and they are built to a MUCH higher standard than basic hosa and I love them. We did a blind shootout at Westlake with all of the sales, techs, and 2nd engineers (mogami vs Zaolla) and the there was a noticeable (although not huge) difference in clarity when we switched to the Zaolla. They are however, extremely expensive...


----------



## EastWest Lurker (May 26, 2014)

I don't believe that expensive cables make better sound. I DO believe that crappy ones degrade the sound.


----------



## wst3 (May 26, 2014)

Jay - being the talented writer that he is - summarized my diatribe nicely!

One HUGE warning - shielding does not provide a big benefit in most spaces! Yeah, I know, blasphemy - except that it isn't.

Here's the deal - electromagnetic noise can come from all parts of the spectrum. The most likely contributors are magnetic radiation down around 60 Hz, and electrical radiation which occurs much higher in the spectrum.

Shielding - at least the braids, foil, and wraps that we use - are ineffective at 60 Hz. The trick that prevents 60 Hz noise from entering the system is the cable twist. (more detail than you'd like - a ferrous conduit will prevent 60 Hz magnetic fields from entering, but that's a wee but of overkill.)

Now if you do have high electrical field noise you do need great shielding, and a properly balanced source, and a well designed differential input, and a little RF suppression wouldn't hurt the cause either.

Why do I rant on and on like this? Good question.

I don't know from whence the mis-information starts, but it bothers me a little when a sales person from an otherwise reputable vendor uses a little smoke and mirrors to sell a more expensive accessory (in this case the cables.)

One other comment on shielding - foil shields are really popular because they are easier to work with, and cheaper to manufacture. But they can introduce noise problems, so it's a good idea to avoid any cable made with a foil shield.

Now if Jay would be so kind as to condense this so people don't end up asleep at their screens...


----------



## Simplesly (May 27, 2014)

wst3 @ Mon May 26 said:


> Why do I rant on and on like this? Good question.
> 
> I don't know from whence the mis-information starts, but it bothers me a little when a sales person from an otherwise reputable vendor uses a little smoke and mirrors to sell a more expensive accessory (in this case the cables.)



A little clarification, I am not a salesperson, and have not been in that business for over five years. But selling the more expensive product is what salespeople are trained to do. You can't fault them for that. They have to eat, just like you and me, and thus they must meet their sales goals. Practically everything in audio is subjective. If you think that ART preamp sounds better than a $4000 Neve, you go for it. Believe it or not, most salespeople actually do care about their customers, and don't just see them as piggy banks. But if they offer their subjective advice, its still your responsibility to make an educated decision about the product you purchase. 

With regard to the cables, I don't think anyone in a pro setting would go for a cheap product that is more susceptible to RMI or EMI, even if it is only a minor concern. Any downtime is lost $$$.


----------



## Giant_Shadow (May 27, 2014)

You can really save $ by rolling your own cables. I bought 100 ft of Mogami and some good 1/4 and xlr ends from Monoprice (or parts express, redco, etc.). Pick up a good soldering iron, solder, desolder wick and your golden. There are instruction video's on google, monoprice and utube. And in the end you pick up a good skill as well. James


----------



## cc64 (May 27, 2014)

Hi guys,

went back to the Pro audio store. Started talking with another salesperson, whining about having to spend 500$ on 2X8 XLR snakes just to plug-in 1 mono pre-amp. Turns out that the new 8 slot API Lunchbox is recent enough that the guys didn't realize when they sold the box to me that there weren't individual XLR in/outs. 

Since i just need 2 slots for my LaChapell 583e, for the moment it's the only thing i own in the 500 series format, they told me to buy the classic 6 slot Lunchbox, which comes with a better internal PSU than the 8 channel which comes with an external wall-wartish PSU, the salesperson told me the PSU was an even more important part in the sound chain. An argument which i found compelling.

So, long story short, i changed the box for a 6-slot, bought 2 Mogami XLR cables for 40$ each. Obviously the DB25 snakes become interesting as soon as you start filling the lunchbox...

BTW the LaChapell sounds really, really good! My AKG C414 sounds 10 times better suddenly.

Best,

Claude


----------



## Giant_Shadow (May 27, 2014)

when the time comes for db25 snakes check out 
www.redco.com
They make great stuff at very fair prices.


----------



## Arksun (May 27, 2014)

I'm pretty happy using Van Damme cables, very similar technical specification to Mogami (apart from the AES/EBU where Mogami has tighter impedance tolerance on their platinum ones) but cheaper. Might be harder to find/more expensive to buy if you're based in North American though.


----------

