# Is There a Good String Quartet Library?



## _Adam_ (Jun 3, 2021)

Maybe I’m not looking in the right places but I can’t seem to find a good string quartet library anywhere.

Anyone know of a good one? Preferably Kontakt Player if it’s a Kontakt library. 

Thanks!


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## tcb (Jun 3, 2021)

CSSS?


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## Getsumen (Jun 3, 2021)

_Adam_ said:


> Maybe I’m not looking in the right places but I can’t seem to find a good string quartet library anywhere.
> 
> Anyone know of a good one? Preferably Kontakt Player if it’s a Kontakt library.
> 
> Thanks!


Quite a few solo string libs out there.

OT has Berlin First Chairs, as well as Amber (Not your standard quartet)

Cinesamples and Spitfire and 8dio and pretty much every other large dev also has their own collection 

Pretty much any big developer has solo strings


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## sinkd (Jun 3, 2021)

How about Spitfire Sacconi?


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## Trash Panda (Jun 3, 2021)

These are the ones I see come up the most often. For every fan, there’s an equal number of detractors or those who say use these as first chair only. It will probably come down to what style you are shooting for.

Cinematic Studio Solo Strings
Spitfire Solo Strings
Berlin Strings First Chairs
Amalgamation of Joshua Bell Violin, Blakus Cello, and take your pick of violas
SWAM Solo Strings


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## FireGS (Jun 3, 2021)

"Good"?

Short answer? No.

Longer answer? Noooooooooo.


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## Casiquire (Jun 3, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Quite a few solo string libs out there.
> 
> OT has Berlin First Chairs, as well as Amber (Not your standard quartet)
> 
> ...


But the question is about *good* ones. It's one of the most difficult sections of the orchestra to imitate. Strings are capable of so much and they not only react to one another, but we can clearly differentiate each player as listeners so we can obviously hear when that interaction is happening and when it isn't.


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## Getsumen (Jun 3, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> But the question is about *good* ones. It's one of the most difficult sections of the orchestra to imitate. Strings are capable of so much and they not only react to one another, but we can clearly differentiate each player as listeners so we can obviously hear when that interaction is happening and when it isn't.


Hmm I suppose so

You won't get better than these.

As a clarinet player (who doesn't know much on strings) I can frankly say that I really can't tell much of the difference between the samples and IRL (compared to other sections) so I guess I have a lower bar for what is considered "good"


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## ism (Jun 3, 2021)




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## prodigalson (Jun 3, 2021)

Spitfire's Sacconi is the best I've found for flexible, quartet writing. As others have mentioned, solo strings are impossible to sample in a way that accomplishes everything you would want. But after trying OT first chairs, Spitfire Solo Strings, CSSS, Cinestrings SOLO, Chris Hein solo strings, it's actually the Sacconi quartet that came out on top for it's somewhat unique combination of good tone, flexible legatos, great shorts, variety of articulations and more or less acceptable approach to vibrato control (IMO). Very underrated solo string library in my opinion


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## Futchibon (Jun 3, 2021)

Anyone tried Macabre solo strings? Cory was pretty impressed with it.


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## muziksculp (Jun 3, 2021)

I think the real challenge is more to do with trying to emulate the human performance, and expressive interaction between the quartet player as independent performers, if one can emulate this in MIDI, they are 90% going to sound good with any decent solo string library, the best Solo Strings Library alone won't perform any magical tricks to make a string quartet sound great. 

it's not the libraries, it's the composition, performance, and arrangement, it's a complex thing to accomplish in MIDI.


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## Talboot (Jun 3, 2021)

Best Service Emotional Violin, Viola and Cello


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## jbuhler (Jun 3, 2021)

FireGS said:


> "Good"?
> 
> Short answer? No.
> 
> Longer answer? Noooooooooo.


If you write for the sweet spots of the various libraries you can get credible results. If you try to mock up some standard quartet repertory you’ll likely be able to do some passages ok, but not anything like a full movement. One of the hardest elements is getting the four virtual instruments to sound cohesive, like they are listening to each other. 

So while I basically agree with the tenor of this assessment, I don’t think it’s entirely hopeless if you understand well the capabilities of the instruments and write to those.


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## jbuhler (Jun 3, 2021)

prodigalson said:


> Spitfire's Sacconi is the best I've found for flexible, quartet writing. As others have mentioned, solo strings are impossible to sample in a way that accomplishes everything you would want. But after trying OT first chairs, Spitfire Solo Strings, CSSS, Cinestrings SOLO, Chris Hein solo strings, it's actually the Sacconi quartet that came out on top for it's somewhat unique combination of good tone, flexible legatos, great shorts, variety of articulations and more or less acceptable approach to vibrato control (IMO). Very underrated solo string library in my opinion


I would like to hear more about the Sacconi. I’ve come close to purchasing it on several occasions but have not been able to find much on it aside from what’s on the SF site. What do you see as its principal advantages over things like SF Solo Strings, Berlin FC, or CSSS?


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## Futchibon (Jun 3, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> it's not the libraries, it's the composition, performance, and arrangement, it's a complex thing to accomplish in MIDI.


Interesting point. But surely the Joshua Bell Violin is an example where programming has set a product clearly apart from its competitors?

In the recent thread on 'what libraries make you go wow', JBV was head and shoulders above the competition. It was mentioned constantly, whereas no other solo string instrument was. This is all the more remarkable as solo strings are notoriously difficult to program.

I'm no technical expert, but it seems clear that JBV either has a much larger 'sweet spot' or more sweet spots than its competitors, including the other Embertone solo strings. So the natural question many people have asked Embertone is 'can you make a viola, cello and bass with similar programming'. And I think if they can it would really be something!


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## Sarah Mancuso (Jun 3, 2021)

This might sound weird but I've actually kinda started to prefer the other Embertone solo strings over the JBV. The JBV is more immediate for keyboard playing, for sure, and it's unmatched for super fast virtuosic parts, but it doesn't offer as much performance control as their Intimate Strings releases and tends to sound more abrupt and "stitched-together" when it comes to lyrical parts. I'm glad I have both.


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## Arbee (Jun 3, 2021)

My recommendations are VSL Solo Strings and Xsample.


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## prodigalson (Jun 3, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I would like to hear more about the Sacconi. I’ve come close to purchasing it on several occasions but have not been able to find much on it aside from what’s on the SF site. What do you see as its principal advantages over things like SF Solo Strings, Berlin FC, or CSSS?


Overall, it just sounds good. Not too harsh, minimal phasing, mostly great crossfades, controlled vibrato, nimble legato. its just clean and seems to handle most lines better than anything else I have for the most part. No solo string library is perfect but it doesn't suffer from the overwhelming vibrato of CSSS, boxy, harsh sound of 8DIO studio quartet, baked-in expression/vib and stridency of CineStrings Solo, roominess and inconsistency of OT First chairs etc etc. 

It has flautando, variety of shorts, spitfires playable legato patches, nice pizz, col legno and its sampled in a really nice sounding hall that isn't too roomy but also isn't boxy either. Stereo mixes in addition to 2 close mic options and stereo pair, a tree, ambient, outriggers. And one of the few libraries that also has ensemble versions of all the articulations (except legato) that is actually really useful as chamber sketching patches too. 

Just my 2 cents. No library is perfect, especially solo strings but for me it just does what I want in a wider range of contexts than anything else I have.


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## jbuhler (Jun 3, 2021)

prodigalson said:


> Overall, it just sounds good. Not too harsh, minimal phasing, mostly great crossfades, controlled vibrato, nimble legato. its just clean and seems to handle most lines better than anything else I have for the most part. No solo string library is perfect but it doesn't suffer from the overwhelming vibrato of CSSS, boxy, harsh sound of 8DIO studio quartet, baked-in expression/vib and stridency of CineStrings Solo, roominess and inconsistency of OT First chairs etc etc.
> 
> It has flautando, variety of shorts, spitfires playable legato patches, nice pizz, col legno and its sampled in a really nice sounding hall that isn't too roomy but also isn't boxy either. Stereo mixes in addition to 2 close mic options and stereo pair, a tree, ambient, outriggers. And one of the few libraries that also has ensemble versions of all the articulations (except legato) that is actually really useful as chamber sketching patches too.
> 
> Just my 2 cents. No library is perfect, especially solo strings but for me it just does what I want in a wider range of contexts than anything else I have.


Thanks! I think I missed the ensemble patch when I’ve looked at the the library in the past. I agree it would be great as a chamber sketch pad. 

It’s good to hear a user endorsement of the library. There’s just not a lot of commentary on Sacconi, and I’m not sure I’ve come across a user demo.


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## Futchibon (Jun 3, 2021)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> This might sound weird but I've actually kinda started to prefer the other Embertone solo strings over the JBV. The JBV is more immediate for keyboard playing, for sure, and it's unmatched for super fast virtuosic parts, but it doesn't offer as much performance control as their Intimate Strings releases and tends to sound more abrupt and "stitched-together" when it comes to lyrical parts. I'm glad I have both.


Sacrilege!  That's interesting, I don't own the Intimate Strings but do love Bohemian Violin for slower, emotional pieces and as ism pointed out, the Spitfire solo violin's 'arpeggio legato' is unmatched. 

I'm glad I have all 3, but only one makes me go 'wow'


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## ism (Jun 3, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> Interesting point. But surely the Joshua Bell Violin is an example where programming has set a product clearly apart from its competitors?



I love the JB, and it's certainly best in class. But part of it's popularity is that it's particular sweet spot happed to be a highly plonkably sweet spot - you plonk in a line almost like you're playing a piano, and it's amazing how good it sounds. And yet, this is also very limited sweet spot, expressively, in particularly that it gives you very virtually no ability to craft the dynamics arc of a note. 

Spitfire solo strings by contrast, sounds terrible if you try to plonk in a JB-sweet-spot-eque line, but it's a *lot* better that the JB for certain things (ie. in it's sweet spots), but the SsS sweet spots generally require some performance in dynamics and vibrato so they don't give you that kind of instant gratification of the JB. 

Also, the JB’s design isn't is necessarily good for quartets. It's recorded as a virtuosic solo instrument performed as a virtuosic solo instrument, and the samples largely bake in exactly the same progressive vibrato into every single not played, meaning you can't coordinate expressively with other members of the quartet (the "watching each other's elbows" string quartet effect).


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## el-bo (Jun 3, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Thanks! I think I missed the ensemble patch when I’ve looked at the the library in the past. I agree it would be great as a chamber sketch pad.
> 
> It’s good to hear a user endorsement of the library. There’s just not a lot of commentary on Sacconi, and I’m not sure I’ve come across a user demo.


This contains a little four-part ditty at the end, but it's also a fun little walkthrough. Great little channel 



Edited for bad spelling.


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## Al Maurice (Jun 3, 2021)

The question undoubtly comes down to the style of playing you are trying to imitate.

Some libraries are more responsive and more agile than others, many others to get that connected performance use patches in which literally respond to how you play in the line, but these tend to be taxing on the compute resources.

Some can get you that virtuoso feel, which probably is too much for a quartet, where each player although can play a kind of solo whilst still feeling like part of the whole line. Also most of these libraries were designed to act as first chairs for the ensemble libraries in the developers collections, leaving them not quite so suitable for quartet writing.

So the consensus here seems to be no not yet. It's more about crafting your lines with VIs, and experience in midi dexterity. Meaning what may work out for many, might not work out so well for you.


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## jbuhler (Jun 4, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> Sacrilege!  That's interesting, I don't own the Intimate Strings but do love Bohemian Violin for slower, emotional pieces and as ism pointed out, the Spitfire solo violin's 'arpeggio legato' is unmatched.
> 
> I'm glad I have all 3, but only one makes me go 'wow'


I struggle mightily with JBV. I love the tone, of course, but it rarely seems to want to go where I want it to go. And it’s going to do what it’s going to do. For similar reasons I prefer the first version of Bohemian violin to the later version(s). The first one responds the way I want whereas the new version is more detailed and supposedly presents more options, but I have a devil of a time getting it to play what I want.


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## Futchibon (Jun 4, 2021)

ism said:


> Also, the JB’s design isn't is necessarily good for quartets. It's recorded as a virtuosic solo instrument performed as a virtuosic solo instrument, and the samples largely bake in exactly the same progressive vibrato into every single not played, meaning you can't coordinate expressively with other members of the quartet (the "watching each other's elbows" string quartet effect).


Yeah I wouldn't want to try something like 'On the Nature of Daylight' with JBV although think the Bohemians would be a good fit. If only they'd release the viola...Any suggestions on the viola front? Chris Hein products sound like they do things differently to the Bohemian ones, and several people on here have praised the viola from Tableau Strings.


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## Futchibon (Jun 4, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I struggle mightily with JBV. I love the tone, of course, but it rarely seems to want to go where I want it to go. And it’s going to do what it’s going to do. For similar reasons I prefer the first version of Bohemian violin to the later version(s). The first one responds the way I want whereas the new version is more detailed and supposedly presents more options, but I have a devil of a time getting it to play what I want.


Interesting! Do you have the cello? I prefer the usability of the violin2 rather than cello1 but at this stage I'm more into improvising and going where the music - and instrument! - makes me; you seem to know just what you want so I can see why JB and BV2 would have issues. But for me they're a blessing. 

Any faith in the release of the Bohemian viola in the near future?


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## propianist (Jun 4, 2021)

I think Native Cremona Quartet is probably worth a look.

A classical string quartet is officially... Violin 1 + Violin 2 + Viola + Cello

Not to be confused with generic solo string... Violin + Viola + Cello + Double Bass.

The good thing about OT Berlin First Chairs is it includes five instruments, with 2 different violins and double bass so it covers all needs.


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## jbuhler (Jun 4, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> Interesting! Do you have the cello? I prefer the usability of the violin2 rather than cello1 but at this stage I'm more into improvising and going where the music - and instrument! - makes me; you seem to know just what you want so I can see why JB and BV2 would have issues. But for me they're a blessing.
> 
> Any faith in the release of the Bohemian viola in the near future?


Yes, I have the Bohemian cello as well, and I find it similar. Lovely tone, but I have to follow it where it wants to go. I should add with all these instruments that there is nothing wrong with the instruments seemingly having wills of their own and writing music to the sweet spots of the instruments. It’s just that that’s what i find I have to do, and it makes it hard to incorporate the instruments into chamber music, because the instruments act like they expect other instruments to follow them rather than listening and adjusting to other players.

One thing I very much appreciate about the SF Solo Strings is how well they take to shaping of lines. I find this especially with the first desk violin, which has been my favored violin for several years now. But it’s broadly true of the SF set, and one reason I like to work with the SF Solo Strings when writing chamber music (and one reason I have been tempted by the Sacconi). And I have quite enjoyed writing quartet music with the first desk violin as first violin, the violin from AltSS and progressive violin from Solo Strings sharing duties as second violin, and the viola and cello from the Solo Strings filling out the quartet. This combination has worked well for me in writing. It has a limited set of things it does well, but within those constraints I find it works well.

I also use XCSS along with the SF First Desk violin for a second quartet when I need extended techniques. And I have a few other quartets I can configure (Amber, the solo setting from 8Dio’s Intimate Strings) plus things like the BDT, the Arnold Evolutions, and the Westwood instruments for quartet textures. I’ve also acquired the Berlin FCs, but haven’t yet tried them as a quartet.

None of those combinations comes close to what a real quartet could do, of course, but that‘s broadly true of virtual instruments. Orchestral string libraries likewise only give a very limited account of what orchestral strings can do, and the same is true for brass, especially woodwinds, and even piano and percussion, which are the instruments probably furthest developed as VIs. Choir and solo voices are even more limited. In the scheme of virtual instruments, quartets are hard, but I think virtual quartets are less limited at this point than choirs or solo voices.


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## youngpokie (Jun 4, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> But the question is about *good* ones. It's one of the most difficult sections of the orchestra to imitate. Strings are capable of so much and they not only react to one another, but we can clearly differentiate each player as listeners so we can obviously hear when that interaction is happening and when it isn't.


Exactly.

First, players in a string quartet tune themselves differently than first chairs in an orchestra.

Second, a string quartet would need many more articulations (especially the detaches and shorts) - that never get sampled because they get totally smeared and blurred in orchestral sections and yet are totally exposed and vital in a quartet.

Third, a quartet needs at least "normal" and "progressive" vibrato levels, but ideally more depending on note intensity and length, which is a whole other can of worms. Non vibrato or poco vibrato playing in a classical/romantic idiom that defines the quartet often sound extremely jarring and unrefined.

And finally, a quartet is simultaneously 4 soloists playing individually expressive voices and also an ensemble that's very _controlled_ and blended. I don't think any single library really delivers against all these points.


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## ism (Jun 4, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> And finally, a quartet is simultaneously 4 soloists playing individually expressive voices and also an ensemble that's very _controlled_ and blended. I don't think any single library really delivers against all these points.


But the tiny moments where one or two existing libraries can, however briefly, pull off this illusion can be very exciting.


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## Casiquire (Jun 4, 2021)

ism said:


> But the tiny moments where one or two existing libraries can, however briefly, pull off this illusion can be very exciting.


You're so right! Weird enough I've had this feeling from LASS first chairs because they play in such an unusual manner, but they all do it so consistently that it gives you the vibe they're listening to one another


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## ism (Jun 4, 2021)

So exciting, in fact, as to be worth all the hours of wanting to slam your head in the door it generally takes to find such moments.


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## jbuhler (Jun 4, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> I don't think any single library really delivers against all these points.


If you want to get picky, I’d say this is generally true of sampled instruments as a class. And I’d say voices and choirs in general fare worse in this respect than do quartets (the range of things sampled voices and choirs can do compared to actual voices and choirs is more limited than the range of things sampled quartets can do compared to actual quartets). But sampled quartets can cover some ground, and if we are talking about writing with samples rather than using samples to replace a real quartet in a finished performance they are reasonably credible over considerably more ground. They still don’t come close to covering standard quartet techniques for writing but they are also not that limited for that task.


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## youngpokie (Jun 4, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> ...if we are talking about writing with samples rather than using samples to replace a real quartet in a finished performance they are reasonably credible over considerably more ground. They still don’t come close to covering standard quartet techniques for writing but they are also not that limited for that task.


I agree. In my case, Sacconi was the library that gave me that feeling @Casiquire and @ism describe. it sounds really "together" and the tone is sublime. I was listening to a lot of chamber music at the time and had a theme written and voiced for what I thought could be a quartet piece. Unfortunately, I couldn't get even 8 bars done - there's just not enough articulations. I also tried "writing for samples" but I don't know how to do that without getting repulsed by that "it's so fake" feeling...


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## ism (Jun 4, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> I agree. In my case, Sacconi was the library that gave me that feeling @Casiquire and @ism describe. it sounds really "together" and the tone is sublime. I was listening to a lot of chamber music at the time and had a theme written and voiced for what I thought could be a quartet piece. Unfortunately, I couldn't get even 8 bars done - there's just not enough articulations. I also tried "writing for samples" but I don't know how to do that without getting repulsed by that "it's so fake" feeling...


Would love to hear some examples of what you're doing with Sacconi


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## Fa (Jun 4, 2021)

_Adam_ said:


> Maybe I’m not looking in the right places but I can’t seem to find a good string quartet library anywhere.
> 
> Anyone know of a good one? Preferably Kontakt Player if it’s a Kontakt library.
> 
> Thanks!


SampleModeling Solo and ensemble strings, simply the best. Not just value for money, but really sound and real solo strings behaviour.


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## MtB1 (Jun 4, 2021)

Isn't it the same in real life? You have 4 absolutely superb musicians but they need not necessarily form a good quartet in terms of sound and performance. I guess it all depends, even more with samples.


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## sinkd (Jun 4, 2021)

ism said:


> Also, the JB’s design isn't is necessarily good for quartets. It's recorded as a virtuosic solo instrument performed as a virtuosic solo instrument, and the samples largely bake in exactly the same progressive vibrato into every single not played, meaning you can't coordinate expressively with other members of the quartet (the "watching each other's elbows" string quartet effect).


I was going to say that I love JB violin, but it would not be my go to for quartet writing. 

Also: "highly plonkable" = perfect. I will now start thinking of all my libraries and their relative level of "plonkability."


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## SteveC (Jun 4, 2021)

I have the Embertone ISS - I like them alone - but not in a quartet.


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## youngpokie (Jun 4, 2021)

ism said:


> Would love to hear some examples of what you're doing with Sacconi


@ism sure. So, here is that theme I had for the quartet and that I tried to mock up with Sacconi. 

Like I said before, I love the tone of the library. Also, the articulations that are available sound pretty good if played individually and in isolation. But:

- fake vibrato and looped "flat" sustains _really_ stand out when material is so exposed. Perhaps it's my admittedly mediocre mockup skills.

- missing articulations. There's a short cello scale run, which I'd love to be that fast detache bow that always sounds so striking - but it's not available so I had to use legato, totally different result. Another one I couldn't fake is a portato where chords move at 0:22. I wanted to use them a lot more, but had to give it up and stick to sustains. In fact, there is a lot of "simplification" going on just so it sounds at least acceptable, if this makes sense. 

It's this process of _always giving up_, bit by bit, on the original idea is what I think is the most frustrating part of my string quartet experience.


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## ism (Jun 4, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> @ism sure. So, here is that theme I had for the quartet and that I tried to mock up with Sacconi.
> 
> Like I said before, I love the tone of the library. Also, the articulations that are available sound pretty good if played individually and in isolation. But:
> 
> ...


Thanks - there's some really lovely bits in that. 

I'd really love to have Sacconi at some point.


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## Futchibon (Jun 4, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Choir and solo voices are even more limited. In the scheme of virtual instruments, quartets are hard, but I think virtual quartets are less limited at this point than choirs or solo voices.


I agree about solo voices, but have you tried Dominus? Really lovely to play, perhaps my favourite VST (although I'm partial to choirs). Insolidus by contrast is much trickier, although can yield lovely results.


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## jbuhler (Jun 4, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> I agree. In my case, Sacconi was the library that gave me that feeling @Casiquire and @ism describe. it sounds really "together" and the tone is sublime. I was listening to a lot of chamber music at the time and had a theme written and voiced for what I thought could be a quartet piece. Unfortunately, I couldn't get even 8 bars done - there's just not enough articulations. I also tried "writing for samples" but I don't know how to do that without getting repulsed by that "it's so fake" feeling...


I’ve had a different experience. Maybe that’s because when I started working on quartets with samples I had a project in mind that was a series of fragments that could first of all sound reasonably credible on sampled instruments but with the idea that it would eventually be played by a real quartet. I can’t say everything I tried worked—one little waltz I attempted never really sounded right however much I massaged it (it was also the only piece of the set that was an arrangement of a previous composed piece and so I didn't follow my usual method in the sense that it was a little ditty I had composed for chamber strings and then tried to adapt to the string quartet)—but enough of these pieces worked for me that I no longer feel quartet writing is beyond the capability of VIs and in many of the fragments I feel the quality is on par with what I get out of a sampled orchestra, which of course also has severe limitations.

I was writing straight to piano roll in the DAW—that is, I wasn’t writing to notation—with some playing in where that made sense, and my working procedures was to develop a short idea (2-4 measures) for the quartet that sounded credible to me with the samples. Once I had that idea in hand I would then work up a full fragment. These fragments were typically 30 seconds to three minutes in length, and had curtailed forms as befits the title of fragment. The advantage of the fragment as form for this project was that it did not require transitions and I could more or less lock in on figures that worked for the quartet.


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## jbuhler (Jun 4, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> I agree about solo voices, but have you tried Dominus? Really lovely to play, perhaps my favourite VST (although I'm partial to choirs). Insolidus by contrast is much trickier, although can yield lovely results.


Yes, I have Dominus Pro (and Insolidus for that matter). It is great, but it comes nowhere as close to the range of what a real choir can do as a sampled orchestra comes to what a real orchestra can. Orchestras are not especially close either if you get outside the sweet spots of samples, but I do feel our sampled orchestras have many more and much larger sweet spots than our choirs. There are just too many phonemes.


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## ism (Jun 4, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> The advantage of the fragment as form for this project was that it did not require transitions and I could more or less lock in on figures that worked for the quartet.



As a form, I find the Noodle can be quite effective vis-a-vis highly-sweetspot-targeted quartet writing.


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## jbuhler (Jun 4, 2021)

ism said:


> As a form, I find the Noodle can be quite effective vis-a-vis highly-sweetspot-targeted quartet writing.


Yup. The fragment as I'm using it here is more or less a noodle. Indeed, I'm not sure I could point to a formal difference, except, for me, noodles usually result from improvisation whereas fragments are more composed.


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## ism (Jun 4, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Yup. The fragment as I'm using it here is more or less a noodle. Indeed, I'm not sure I could point to a formal difference, except, for me, noodles usually result from improvisation whereas fragments are more composed.





And the key point is that the distinction between both noodle and fragment form vs full on Beetoveen-esque quartet form echoes Adorno's distinction between essay vs book form. The former lets you focus in on something without the implicit claims to comprehensiveness of the latter. 

Current solo strings sampleing technology, in this analogy, can let you write some elegant, insightful, suggestive essays. But I'd hold off on any attempts at a comprehensive history of the Roman Empire for the moment.


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## Futchibon (Jun 4, 2021)

Anyone used the SWAM solo strings? There's a review here where they have a violin and cello demo that sounds nice. 



They have 50% EDU discount so tempted to pick one up for $60. Any thoughts on which?


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## youngpokie (Jun 5, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> because when I started working on quartets with samples I had a project in mind that was a series of fragments that could first of all sound reasonably credible on sampled instruments


This different starting point makes perfect sense to me and possibly explains a few things. My approach is always to "pretend" I will have real players and then to use samples to "give voice" to how I hear it in my head. Of course this only leads to disappointment with most sample libraries, so your way is at the minimum less painful....


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## Futchibon (Jun 12, 2021)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> This might sound weird but I've actually kinda started to prefer the other Embertone solo strings over the JBV. The JBV is more immediate for keyboard playing, for sure, and it's unmatched for super fast virtuosic parts, but it doesn't offer as much performance control as their Intimate Strings releases and tends to sound more abrupt and "stitched-together" when it comes to lyrical parts. I'm glad I have both.


I've become really interested in the Viola after watching the walkthrough. The ipad control seems to really add expressiveness and take it to another level. How would you rate the 4 instruments?


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## Sarah Mancuso (Jun 12, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> I've become really interested in the Viola after watching the walkthrough. The ipad control seems to really add expressiveness and take it to another level. How would you rate the 4 instruments?


I'm not sure how I'd rate them all against each other, but the viola is my favorite!


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## Mega (Jun 12, 2021)

Neo Strings by Insanity Samples is pretty good. It comes w/ a violin, viola, cello, and bass and also an ensemble patch. It also has basic articulations along with extended articulations.


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## Karmand (Jun 12, 2021)

I got away with using Cinestrings SOLO's behind their Soloist Violin - I kinda liked em.


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## Futchibon (Jun 12, 2021)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> I'm not sure how I'd rate them all against each other, but the viola is my favorite!


Thanks, I'll have to get it now!


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## VSriHarsha (Jun 12, 2021)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> This might sound weird but I've actually kinda started to prefer the other Embertone solo strings over the JBV. The JBV is more immediate for keyboard playing, for sure, and it's unmatched for super fast virtuosic parts, but it doesn't offer as much performance control as their Intimate Strings releases and tends to sound more abrupt and "stitched-together" when it comes to lyrical parts. I'm glad I have both.


JBV is Joshua Bell Violin right?
I don’t know but I never like the sound. Oh wait! No, I think that’s their Friedlander. I think JBV must be good but their ISL is sounding beautiful, to me. Just recently downloaded.


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## audio1 (Jun 12, 2021)

No such thing as perfect anything. But, mixing and matching interments from various libraries is the best way to go. Why? Even if you can't match articulations perfectly, they all have thier own character due to the player and producer/developer. Another way to look at at is, there is no such thing as the perfect pizza that will suit all tastes. This is why we have many pizza joints all over. Same with sample devs, they all have a different vision of what they think is perfect, but it never is, so mixing and matching libraries allows for true inspiration and creativity. Also, why would you want to sound like everybody else using just one library. The reason some guys have these huge templates is for that reason, so they can mix and match easier. This is applies to any instrument, not just string quartets. And, if you do not have the huge cpu to handle these templates to do the same, just think about it a little more. Planning and thought will get you there. Big templates are really just a convenience to save on load times. Also could be viewed as lazy in many cases.


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## SteveC (Jun 12, 2021)

audio1 said:


> Another way to look at at is, there is no such thing as the perfect pizza that will suit all tastes. This is why we have many pizza joints all over.


I just want to say that in the original pizzerias, there are only two or three kinds of pizza to choose from.


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## Troels Folmann (Jun 13, 2021)




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## icecoolpool (Jun 13, 2021)

Another Sacconi Strings Quartet demo for your listening displeasure:


DISCLAIMER: This was just a quick cadence exercise I did a few years ago while going through Walter Piston´s Harmony textbook. Back then, I didn´t have any VIs (!) but a friend kindly let me use his computer. It is fair to assume that the programming is not particularly good and is not getting the best out of the library. Unfortunately, as I don´t own the library, I am not able to modify anything though I am able to still open the session (even though the DAW can´t find the instruments).

There was no eq, reverb, compression, or effects of any kind added to the production. It was interesting to note that I did, however, use violin 2 panned left in place of violin 1 and relegated violin 1 to violin 2. I also added some low-level background ambience sound.


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## SteveC (Jun 13, 2021)

I listened to all your suggestions, and good work and so on - but I think there is no way to simulate a string quartett. I think the string VIs aren't that good at the moment. Some passages seem to be possible for a more synthetic sound. Don't get me wrong, I like synthetic sound! - I think the problem is the phrasing - Impossible to simulate at the moment!


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## Syncopator (Sep 3, 2021)

It's interesting how few personal accounts there are of (a) NI's Cremona Quartet and (b) Samplemodeling Solo Strings.

Almost every other library has been reviewed here by someone who owns it. But almost no one has personal experience with the above—which is interesting, since they both claim to be ultra-realistic.

I've had the same experience as others: Most of the libraries fall short somewhere in the legato/vibrato/expression department. There's always a "sweet spot," but if you need something outside of that, good luck.

I wish there were more first-hand reviews of Cremona and Samplemodeling Solo Strings. Perhaps we've all been burned by our other purchases, making us wary of yet another disappointing solo-strings purchase. (At least that's where I am.) Yet, I'm totally willing to plunk down the money for a better experience with vibrato.

Is there no one here who's used Cremona or Samplemodeling?


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## Mega (Sep 3, 2021)

Neo Strings by InsanitySamples is excellent. It's on sale right nowbfor 99 GBP. You get a Cello, Double Bass, Violin, & Cello. It also comes with standard articulations as well as more avant-garde extended articulations. You can also blend some articulations using the mod wheel. Also, 4 mic positions and a lot of character.


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## Casiquire (Sep 3, 2021)

Syncopator said:


> It's interesting how few personal accounts there are of (a) NI's Cremona Quartet and (b) Samplemodeling Solo Strings.
> 
> Almost every other library has been reviewed here by someone who owns it. But almost no one has personal experience with the above—which is interesting, since they both claim to be ultra-realistic.
> 
> ...


They might not have been mentioned specifically in this thread, but they've definitely been discussed around other threads. I'll add Chris Hein to this discussion because it's halfway between Samplemodeling and traditional libraries. 

With all three, there are varying degrees of issues with tone. Cremona is probably the worst in terms of tone. It sounds harsh and metallic to my ears but i think others would have a better description of why they don't like the sound. With Hein, you can disable a lot of the modeling and get the pure sound of the recordings which fixes any issues with tone, but then you lose the benefit of modeling. With SM i think the tone is actually not bad lately. 

Tone is one of two issues though. The second issue is how the players interact. Live players are always adjusting to one another and work as one cohesive group. This is just not possible to replicate with libraries today. The amount of effort it would take to get it right... You'd probably have to literally play in a string quartet professionally in the first place to have the kind of understanding it would take. I think we're actually better off with libraries that are fully sampled since we at least get a little bit of that authentic played feel, even if we miss all those interactions between players


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## MaxOctane (Sep 3, 2021)

icecoolpool said:


> Another Sacconi Strings Quartet demo for your listening displeasure:


Based on disclaimer I thought it was gonna be crap, but this sounds rather nice. 

Now, it does consist of shorts with a few held notes. The long notes --especially in melody-- is where SQ libs fall apart. Pizz is usually perfectly sampled (for obvious reasons), and stacc is usually ok too.


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## pipirisnaki (Sep 3, 2021)

Rn i'm using as quartet virharmonic violin and celli (have to modify 2nd violin a little bit). Viola should be released this year.

Cheers!


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## AndyP (Sep 3, 2021)

Syncopator said:


> Is there no one here who's used Cremona or Samplemodeling?


I tend not to write for string quartets, more chamber, symphonic, cinematic styles.
Therefore I use solo strings more as first chairs, now and then violin or cello for melodies.

My favorites for melodies are samplemodeling solo strings, cinesamples solo strings and violin A and B from performance samples. Now and then also Simple Cello and Simple violin from fluffy which sound great but are hard to play.

I also like the VSL Solo Strings, but for my music they usually don't fit as well as the ones mentioned above. I can well imagine that these are passable for quartet writing.

I must mention that I have the Synchronized SE Solo Strings (including + versions), the full version offers much more round robins and control over vibrato etc..

Best playable are the samplemodeling strings, as long as you don't expect crisp spiccatos.


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## muziksculp (Sep 3, 2021)

I was listening to this demo track of the Synchronized Basset Horn by *Jay Bacal*. It's Mozart's Basset Horn quintet.

He uses the VSL Solo Vln1, Vln2, Vla, and Cello (I think the VI-Pro versions) to accompany the Basset Horn.

He has also included the midi file, and instrument presets for Cubase (Since I don't use Cubase, I couldn't test these presets), but if you are a Cubase user, you might want to see how he has set these solo strings. To my ears, they sound wonderful. They are available on the Synchronized Basset Horn product page, in the demo track additional resources.

I personally couldn't get this type of results using the VI versions of VSL Solo Strings, but I'm sure this is just a matter of experience with this library. I'm also guessing this can be achieved easily with the VSL Synchronized Solo Strings.

It would be helpful if a Cubase user can load these VSL VI Preset files, and run the midi demo. and give some feedback as to what the presets have in terms of processing, and the articulations used in the midi demo. (THANKS)

Here is the mp3 demo :

View attachment JB_Mozart_Bassethorn_Quintet.mp3


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## Fa (Sep 11, 2021)

As I told at the beginning... what about this one? 


> <iframe title="vimeo-player" src="" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

There's always UVI's IRCAM Solo Instruments, based on IRCAM's SOL database: https://www.uvi.net/ircam-solo-instruments-2.html


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## Alchemedia (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> There's always UVI's IRCAM Solo Instruments, based on IRCAM's SOL database: https://www.uvi.net/ircam-solo-instruments-2.html


I use it occasionally. The very definition of niche. Intended for avant-garde/experimental music. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who doesn't own Falcon or Osmose, which enables endless tweaking and MPE.


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## Fa (Feb 14, 2022)

I would take a look to this one...


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## LostintheBardo (May 4, 2022)

Any thoughts on Strezov Macabre Solo strings?


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## Reznov981 (May 4, 2022)

The 


ism said:


>


The famed chart makes a triumphant return.


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## Reznov981 (May 4, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> Thanks! I think I missed the ensemble patch when I’ve looked at the the library in the past. I agree it would be great as a chamber sketch pad.
> 
> It’s good to hear a user endorsement of the library. There’s just not a lot of commentary on Sacconi, and I’m not sure I’ve come across a user demo.


I feel the same way. On my wish list are the regular Spitfire Solo Strings and Xsample Contemporary Solo Strings (for the more avant-garde artics). I just don’t see Sacconi brought up a lot, but they sound pretty great from the endorsement here. Now I don’t know what to buy 😅


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## jbuhler (May 5, 2022)

Reznov981 said:


> I feel the same way. On my wish list are the regular Spitfire Solo Strings and Xsample Contemporary Solo Strings (for the more avant-garde artics). I just don’t see Sacconi brought up a lot, but they sound pretty great from the endorsement here. Now I don’t know what to buy 😅


I haven't yet pulled the trigger on Sacconi, and I continue to return to the SF Solo Strings. I prefer the first desk violin on my music to all my other violins, which include the Berlin First Chairs, Joshua Bell and the Virharmonic Violin. I don't think the SF first desk violin is an objectively better instrument, but it just seems to work on my music. I also have XCSS, which I also like quite a lot, but they don't have the same warmth in the sustains as the SF Solo Strings.


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## VanSou (May 5, 2022)

Like already many pointed out, old but still fantastic is the Sacconi Strings Quartet.


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## PrimeEagle (May 5, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> The second issue is how the players interact. Live players are always adjusting to one another and work as one cohesive group. This is just not possible to replicate with libraries today. The amount of effort it would take to get it right... You'd probably have to literally play in a string quartet professionally in the first place to have the kind of understanding it would take. I think we're actually better off with libraries that are fully sampled since we at least get a little bit of that authentic played feel, even if we miss all those interactions between players


Isn't this more an issue with performance, though, which would come down to MIDI programming skills? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean.


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## Casiquire (May 5, 2022)

PrimeEagle said:


> Isn't this more an issue with performance, though, which would come down to MIDI programming skills? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean.


Maybe technically yes, if the range of expression of the instrument is subtle enough. I just think it takes a level of programming that most people, definitely myself included with my average hobbyist skill set, wouldn't have the chops to pull off totally convincingly and the effort is huge even for people with great professional skill. Which tells me that sampling might yet have some innovation to go. Not because our current libraries are bad. Far from it, they're made with the same level of detail as the great orchestral libraries I love. But because quartets are a complex musical beast. Plus to make matters worse, our ears are totally used to hearing orchestral sections played separately and mixed together, but our ears have only ever heard live quartet performances which also tend to be virtuosic and detail oriented too.


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## ism (May 5, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Plus to make matters worse, our ears are totally used to hearing orchestral sections played separately and mixed together, but our ears have only ever heard live quartet performances which also tend to be virtuosic and detail oriented too


Interesting, I'd never thought about that dimension before.


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## Rob (May 5, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I was listening to this demo track of the Synchronized Basset Horn by *Jay Bacal*. It's Mozart's Basset Horn quintet.
> 
> He uses the VSL Solo Vln1, Vln2, Vla, and Cello (I think the VI-Pro versions) to accompany the Basset Horn.
> 
> ...


I've tried that, Muzik... sincerely I don't know how he could get such a good sounding demo with that midi. Tried to load the fxps but could not understand how. So I changed the expression completely and loaded Joshua Bell as first violin. The end result is a total failure to satisfy your request, but the experiment helped understand that Bacal must have used the JB al first violin, for my track sounded really similar...
listen, and forgive the clarinet track which is the se vsl clarinet, it's there as a placeholder:

View attachment Mozart Quintet JB+SynchroSS.mp3


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## Getsumen (May 5, 2022)

LostintheBardo said:


> Any thoughts on Strezov Macabre Solo strings?


I wouldn't expect it to work great in this setting. If I recall it's range is limited and it has one vibrato type. It's basically designed and limited only for slow emotional (and isn't it only legato?)


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## muziksculp (May 5, 2022)

Rob said:


> I've tried that, Muzik... sincerely I don't know how he could get such a good sounding demo with that midi. Tried to load the fxps but could not understand how. So I changed the expression completely and loaded Joshua Bell as first violin. The end result is a total failure to satisfy your request, but the experiment helped understand that Bacal must have used the JB al first violin, for my track sounded really similar...
> listen, and forgive the clarinet track which is the se vsl clarinet, it's there as a placeholder:
> 
> View attachment Mozart Quintet JB+SynchroSS.mp3


Hi @Rob ,

Thanks for the helpful, and interesting feedback.

I agree, the JB Violin sounds very good, as usual, and so much richer sounding than the VLS VI Violin. which is what makes your demo sound pretty good. Oh.. the VSL se Clarinet sounds very decent, no complaints. If J. Bacal didn't use the JB Violin, but rather used the VSL VI Violin, I wonder what he did to make it sound so good.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Trif (May 6, 2022)

I managed to open the presets in Ableton, and he definitely used the VSL VI violin.


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