# How to sound more “commercial”?



## gsilbers (Jan 28, 2022)

Applying to all genres, what would help in getting a more “commercial sound”?

What would be considered “commercial” you ask? Well…
That’s depends on you. 

Is it more “cheesy”?
is it using elements (like composition, orchestration, arranging and mixing) that are used a lot and easily consumed by audiences?

Do some composers / producers have a talent for a more commercial sound?

Are there simple tricks you use to help achieve a more liked or commercial sound?

What’s the edge of commercial sound vs more edgy/odd/artsy/orignal?

Just a broad stroke thread…


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## Rob Elliott (Jan 28, 2022)

This is something I have also thought about the last couple of years. I have experimented with lots of things but nothing comes close to my picking a nice upright last year and sticking in the studio (I have to update my studio pics) to sketch out new ideas/themes. Sometimes schedule makes me want to just head over to the desk/rig an 'get er done' - but sitting at the piano and fleshing the 'reason for being' just seems to have led me to more clients commenting on themes and vibe - most importantly, I notice the difference. Hope is helps. (The irony is if that step in the process is done with enough care - the project / cue will actually go faster.)


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## JohnG (Jan 28, 2022)

I think if you want to appeal to a wide audience, then -- just do it. We all can listen to what's popular and glean insight.

Particularly in my life as a trailer-music writer, I found that if I turned my mind specifically to appealing to a big audience, it worked a lot better than if I got caught up in esoterica.


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## Snarf (Jan 28, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> What would be considered “commercial” you ask? Well…
> That’s depends on you.


I think you should define it a bit more, else you'll get a lot of answers with different conceptions of 'commercial' in mind.


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## gsilbers (Jan 28, 2022)

Rob Elliott said:


> This is something I have also thought about the last couple of years. I have experimented with lots of things but nothing comes close to my picking a nice upright last year and sticking in the studio (I have to update my studio pics) to sketch out new ideas/themes. Sometimes schedule makes me want to just head over to the desk/rig an 'get er done' - but sitting at the piano and fleshing the 'reason for being' just seems to have led me to more clients commenting on themes and vibe - most importantly, I notice the difference. Hope is helps. (The irony is if that step in the process is done with enough care - the project / cue will actually go faster.)



cool


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## gsilbers (Jan 28, 2022)

JohnG said:


> I think if you want to appeal to a wide audience, then -- just do it. We all can listen to what's popular and glean insight.
> 
> Particularly in my life as a trailer-music writer, I found that if I turned my mind specifically to appealing to a big audience, it worked a lot better than if I got caught up in esoterica.



What would be the difference in trailer music for wider audience? The traditional “epic” trailer sound ?


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## bdr (Jan 28, 2022)

remove 50% of your brain.


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## Tralen (Jan 28, 2022)

bdr said:


> remove 50% of your brain.


I know this is a joke, but I think it is unfair to classify people that enjoy commercial music as stupid. They still have the other 50% of their brain, it is just that is not used for music.

It took me a while to understand it, being a musician, but it is worth to remember that most people have other professions and other interests, and I'm grateful for that.


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## sundrowned (Jan 28, 2022)

Add live recording.


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## Pincel (Jan 28, 2022)

bdr said:


> remove 50% of your brain.


You truly are Larry David!


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## JohnG (Jan 28, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> What would be the difference in trailer music for wider audience? The traditional “epic” trailer sound ?


I think the traditional trailer sound is dead, based on what I hear on trailers lately. I just listened to a bunch of them and that old "Carmina Burana" vibe seemed utterly absent...

...which is unfortunate, as I wrote a lot of that stuff!

That said, I do think there is a new vibe out there. In some cases, that's kinda-song, kinda-epic synth/percussion. But a lot of trailers are using either needle-drops or song-based material that's been rearranged.

That's what I think I'm hearing, anyway. There are some that follow some traditional elements, like "The Desperate Hour" and "Warrant" maybe, but the old 'big choir, big chords' thing seems over.





__





iTunes Movie Trailers






trailers.apple.com


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## chillbot (Jan 28, 2022)

I suppose everyone everyone has a different definition of commercial.

I tend to think of commercial music as a literal definition of the word commercial:
1. concerned with or engaged in commerce.
2. making or intended to make a profit.

The word "intent" was in my head even before looking up the definition because I think that's a big part of it.

That could mean:
1. any music written for a (paid) client where you are bound by the client's needs and guidelines.
2. any music written with the intent, or HOPE, of making money, i.e. library music or top-40 pop hits, whatever.

The opposite of commercial would be any music written with zero intention of making any money, only for the sake of writing music.

There is a grey area for sure. Film scores where they are hired on for $$ but still want to make the most artful music that they are allowed. Theater productions where, yes you want to get paid, but it's so difficult to do so that it's hardly the motivating factor.

It's almost though as to be commercial there is an added factor of the better you make the track the more $$ you make... as in a really good library track that gets used a ton or a really good pop song that becomes a hit around the world. In film/theater this is somewhat capped... a really good film might win you some awards and get you more work but you're not necessarily making more money from it.

None of this answers the question how to sound commercial. It's sort of like asking "how do you write film music?" Well, you write any music you want to, to film, and then you have film music. In order to sound commercial you write any music that you get paid for? I know that's not what you meant in your question. But you also said it was a broad stroke thread...

I'll tell you how to NOT sound commercial... make your tracks really really soft. Works every time.


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## JohnG (Jan 28, 2022)

chillbot said:


> The word "intent" was in my head even before looking up the definition because I think that's a big part of it.


I agree, chill. If you want to write a piece of music that's going to license 20x, you have to put on that hat before you start.


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## Ivan M. (Jan 28, 2022)

I would say simplicity, something that’s straightforward, doesn’t require effort and patience to listen to, somewhat in your face, fluid and simple melody, juicy harmony, strong and simple rhythm, subtlety only in the performance/expression of the line, no intellectual acrobatics in harmony/rhythm/form, mostly consonant, minimal dissonance, or just one big nice texture, no intro, straight to the point, single purpose, single emotion, straightforward and flashy, like a poster.


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## Ivan M. (Jan 28, 2022)

Tralen said:


> I know this is a joke, but I think it is unfair to classify people that enjoy commercial music as stupid. They still have the other 50% of their brain, it is just that is not used for music.
> 
> It took me a while to understand it, being a musician, but it is worth to remember that most people have other professions and other interests, and I'm grateful for that.


Probably nothing to do with intelligence but with development of taste. Still, even people with “developed” taste listen to some kind of popular music. Because over-engineered, intellectual music is boring and merely a show-off. Music needs to have a soul, and even classical music that’s popular has strong melodies and moves people. Intellect only has a supporting, engineering role.


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## Daniel James (Jan 28, 2022)

Easy:


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## kitekrazy (Jan 28, 2022)

Tralen said:


> I know this is a joke, but I think it is unfair to classify people that enjoy commercial music as stupid. They still have the other 50% of their brain, it is just that is not used for music.
> 
> It took me a while to understand it, being a musician, but it is worth to remember that most people have other professions and other interests, and I'm grateful for that.


 I envy those people. When you are trained in composition, pedagogy, and performance, music is kinda ruin for you.
These are also the same people who support all aspects of the music industry. These are also the same people who flip some cash at a DJ or wedding band to play something you find hideous.


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## gsilbers (Jan 28, 2022)

Tralen said:


> I know this is a joke, but I think it is unfair to classify people that enjoy commercial music as stupid. They still have the other 50% of their brain, it is just that is not used for music.
> 
> It took me a while to understand it, being a musician, but it is worth to remember that most people have other professions and other interests, and I'm grateful for that.



It could also be taken as not to overdo it. You might be able to know tons of scales and play like amazing but for producing you might have to take it down a notch. Sort of like those progressive rock or jazz where its seems its music for musicans.


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## gsilbers (Jan 28, 2022)

JohnG said:


> I think the traditional trailer sound is dead, based on what I hear on trailers lately. I just listened to a bunch of them and that old "Carmina Burana" vibe seemed utterly absent...
> 
> ...which is unfortunate, as I wrote a lot of that stuff!
> 
> ...


interesting. I did hear a bit of that style or somthing that sometimes it even sounds like the old propellerhead big beat from the 90s.. kinda modern spy...


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## gsilbers (Jan 28, 2022)

Ivan M. said:


> I would say simplicity, something that’s straightforward, doesn’t require effort and patience to listen to, somewhat in your face, fluid and simple melody, juicy harmony, strong and simple rhythm, subtlety only in the performance/expression of the line, no intellectual acrobatics in harmony/rhythm/form, mostly consonant, minimal dissonance, or just one big nice texture, no intro, straight to the point, single purpose, single emotion, straightforward and flashy, like a poster.


even thought it does sound apt and true... its still seems dificult to do.. or do it well at least


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## gsilbers (Jan 28, 2022)

chillbot said:


> I suppose everyone everyone has a different definition of commercial.
> 
> I tend to think of commercial music as a literal definition of the word commercial:
> 1. concerned with or engaged in commerce.
> ...


i think thats the perfect definition. i guess the follow up would be what would make poeple pay for your music. what would make a top 40 more $$ than another. or a library track be played more than another. 

Not sure if it happens to others but some track take forever and land nowhere and simple piano arp gets played everywhere.


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## chillbot (Jan 28, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> or a library track be played more than another.


Loudness, production, structure. Making a track easily editable is most definitely commercial.

You know what might be a key to very "commercial-sounding" tracks is repetition. In library music you take easily identifiable forms like AABA or ABAB. In pop you just repeat that refrain over and over and over ad nauseum to drill it into the grey matter.

Not that you wouldn't repeat a refrain in a non-commercial song that you wrote for nobody but yourself and shared with only your mom and your dog... but it wouldn't be nearly to the extent of current top-40 pop hits where every refrain is repeated 5-6 times almost verbatim with the same intonation, might as well have just been copy-and-pasted. There, that sounds commercial to me.


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## chillbot (Jan 28, 2022)

chillbot said:


> It's sort of like asking "how do you write film music?" Well, you write any music you want to, to film, and then you have film music.


I was trying to remember where I got this from and it just came to me. 

"The way to write American music is simple. All you have to do is be an American and then write any kind of music you wish."

-- Virgil Thomson, 1963


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## Henu (Jan 29, 2022)

From mastering point of view, the "commercial" sound usually consists of overhyped low (sub 70) and high (over 10k) end with tight compression, especially under 100 hz. The stereo image should be as wide as possible without phase problems. 

For extra polish, you can tame the 250-300 hz area with EQ more (and compress it also quite tight if wanted) and do a couple of surgical notches at 4-5k and 7k area. There's a lot of futile sizzle usually at those higher peaks and taming it down will make the highs less harsh without killing the brightness.


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## Saxer (Jan 29, 2022)

Beside the production side I think successful tracks can be described in a few sentences. Like: "One big fanfare with repeated notes and the tutti staccs around it." Or: "The eigth note pumping bass with the strange piano melody on top." So you need one or very few main elements that carries the whole track.

The commercial aspect (how much $$) is a separate thing. It's about making things fit into the zeitgeist and connections to distributers and labeling the music product and delivering in time and ideas about connecting music to other products and motivate people to support you and a lot more.
Most composers (me included) are really bad in that area. It needs a complete different mindset than sitting there and producing music. I personally find all this marketing stuff extremely boring. I'm just lucky enough to work together with other musicians who invite me to collaborate and care about that shit.

Beside that: I don't think copying styles that are commercially successful is the way to go. It's always like the secret romantic bay after been published in a travelers guidebook. There are a lot of niche markets out there. Do what you can do better than others.


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## José Herring (Jan 29, 2022)

I find that defining commercial aesthetically is misleading. HZ has enjoy commercial success so has John Williams and Eric Whitaker yet they couldn't be polar opposites as far as kinds of music they do. So..... I look elsewhere. 

As the Chillbot suggestion there is a professional production standard that seems to run universally. People can recognize a good recording vs a bad one one that sounds cheap over one that is well done. How one gets that point should be the focus on any commercial success really. While there are outliers, poorly produced music that gets noticed, the overwhelming majority whether you agree with the type of music or not, is well recorded and well mixed and intended for a particular audience or for a particular usage (film, tv, ect.)


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## SupremeFist (Jan 29, 2022)

Henu said:


> . There's a lot of futile sizzle usually at those higher peaks and taming it down will make the highs less harsh without killing the brightness.


Futile Sizzle is definitely my next band name.


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 29, 2022)

I found that simplicity was the most successful way to earn the fee. I did have formal training but in some respects, I didn't draw on a lot of it. However in hindsight, I realise that the training gave me fluidity, speed (I was fast), lots of immediate options under pressure and a broad spectrum of stylistic knowledge and know how that got me through every brief without not knowing what to do or how to do it.
Did I have an advantage over say non-readers? Well no, not really given the nature of media music and the business, but I got into the garden more often with a beer, even when I did have to work on several jobs a day....


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## bdr (Jan 29, 2022)

Tralen said:


> I know this is a joke, but I think it is unfair to classify people that enjoy commercial music as stupid. They still have the other 50% of their brain, it is just that is not used for music.
> 
> It took me a while to understand it, being a musician, but it is worth to remember that most people have other professions and other interests, and I'm grateful for that.


Of course my comment is facetious and done for a laugh, but also, not really. I often find myself double and triple thinking things because I really have no idea what the GP (‘general public’) like, or why. I love music that touches both my heart and my head. Jobim. Goldsmith. Ravel. Gene Puerling. Madison Cunningham!

I don’t necessarily think that people that enjoy commercial music are ‘stupid’, but there’s no doubt whatsoever that music appreciation is at a very low level compared to when I was listening to Top40 in the 70s and 80s. I really feel that popular music today, as a generalisation, is the equivalent of McDonalds. Mass produced, common denominator, lots of ear candy, no nutritional value and totally disposable and forgettable.


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 29, 2022)

Dunno @bdr, the charts may have given in to cynicism perhaps but there is plenty of indie music that is more adventurous than your average commercialism. Still I agree generally that the more limited the musical language, the more likely success although there are some caveats to that, especially concerning originality I feel.


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## GtrString (Jan 29, 2022)

I think commercial is about chasing the latest popular trend, or even better, the next one.

It would involve making music with a broad appeal, getting balanced mixes, simple and well defined harmonic and melodic approaches, without being boring, using tons of unique hooks (that will resonate with a lot of people).

But getting the interpretation right about what this means, is not easy at all, and probably more of a fluke or luck, than a calculated, rational strategy.

These things changes so fast, that you will always be behind the trend if you chase it, so going against the mainstream may give you better odds of tapping into something. But who knows, there just isn’t any formula..


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## chillbot (Jan 29, 2022)

GtrString said:


> I think commercial is about chasing the latest popular trend, or even better, the next one.


This is a good point. My definition is evolving:
1 - financial gain
2 - high production
3 - some element of repetition
4 - current/trendy


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## AudioLoco (Jan 29, 2022)

-Listen to a lot of popular/commercial tracks and copy almost scientifically recurring elements.
It can also *not* be just an anti-art, professional, pragmatic, practical, sell-out attitude, but become a really interesting challenge sometimes. 
Getting outside your own comfort zone to do something you don't normally.
Although I find that when artists who actually like those kind of things, listen to them daily, and truly believe in the music they are making it comes out more succesful then the ones trying to borrow.
Fresher, more "genre correct", then a "pro", technical operation.... More authentic.
Although - some things just won't fly with me, even for good money. 
Like for example heavy Autotuned vocals. Not on my watch. The world is already shitty enough as it is...

-Or.... dare, experiment and put in a spin that becomes commercial and let everyone follow.
(less probable)


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## gsilbers (Jan 29, 2022)

dunnoo... Sometimes the easiest sounding questions might the hardest ... or at least harder than it appears at first. Maybe this is one, maybe not.
But in the Ai world simpe questions like Whats life? and Whats intelligence? might appear as easy at first but then you can find tons of book that are more philosopphical aboutt hese topics and al related to robotics and Ai.

comercial music.. yes... its for profit. Yes, do what its the "norm" and popular cliches of the genre sort of speak... but have you ever wonder why some poeple just "have it"? Or if most composers are doing these norms and cliche to be commercial, other composers/producers are seem to be having more success than others? So many variables and a huge field in the world of music and sub genres.

The nut and bolts parts is of course interesting. Form, theory, cliches, productions etc. but also things seeing differences between poepe like Rick Rubin vs Rick beato. Or Marco beltrami vs brian tyler. etc. some have studied and practice and have a wealth of knowledge and know about how to make it sound commercial while others just seem to "have it" . maybe its luck, maybe its business related. Those two just are some examples.. either of them enjoy commercial success of course.. but just an example.. at other levels you see some soundcloud playlist of random composers and some are very good and seem to nail it while others.. are ok.. ish.
Some comments above didnt mention the composition/thoery/orch/prod etc.. so that was interesting to read.

Could it be that growing up some poepe just listen to the most commercial/easy listening genres while others grow up listneing to the odd/edgy stuff? So knowing what works just becomes natural And even crossing genres like in library music or filmscoring that "getting it" still follows? while others it becomes more of a thought process? And even seem that very young kids have "talent" while others a lot older still make it sound almost the same but had to hone it in for years to get there?

well.. that was a loooong shower thought i had.. not expecing a specifci answer that'll solve anything. just more depth into what is "good vs bad" music which its all subjective and "commercial" would mean getting money from it.. and since music in our society somehow needs to be "quantified" to determine success or not.. even though its all subjective.. money or "Commercial success" seems to be that quantifiable marker in small bubble that lives inside a larger part of a consumer market that we belong. Some in full, others as semi pro, while the pure hobbist can just enjoy themselves


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## ed buller (Jan 29, 2022)

Remember: Commercial's twin is Bland

best

ed


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## Henu (Jan 29, 2022)

(not to mention their bastard child "Forgettable")


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## JohnG (Jan 29, 2022)

Honestly that is rubbish. I don't think most successful commercial music is either bland or forgettable.

The whole point of it is that it's _not_ forgettable. It has 'something' that grabs people and they don't mind hearing it 100x. The most successful tracks are like that -- it's partly performance and mixing and all that, but it's also the music itself, whether that's some epic David Bowie track, "Can't Get No Satisfaction," or JW's "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" score.

How about Sherman & Sherman, who wrote some of the most unforgettable (sometimes one wishes perhaps not quite so unforgettable) music for many early Disney animation -- Mary Poppins, Winnie the Pooh. That also is a great commercial achievement.


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## Henu (Jan 29, 2022)

JohnG said:


> I don't think most successful commercial music is either bland or forgettable.


At least I wasn't talking about _succesful_. I'm talking about trying to copy what's hot right now, and trying to become succesful by copying the predecessor inch by inch. And that's usually not the recipe for interesting and fresh music or any form of art.


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## JohnG (Jan 29, 2022)

Henu said:


> At least I wasn't talking about _succesful_. I'm talking about trying to copy what's hot right now, and trying to become succesful by copying the predecessor inch by inch. And that's usually not the recipe for interesting and fresh music or any form of art.


I don't agree, Henu. In fact, I believe the opposite -- that most of the painting, music, architecture, poetry, and literature whose artistic content I admire arises not from some "artist in a cave" but in the collision between the world of commerce and the genius of the creator.

Whether the impetus behind the commission is a church official (Bach) or aristocracy (Beethoven) or a congregation (Duruflé) or an audience (maybe John Adams), it's the very few creators whose artistic abilities raises the almost-great to great.

That doesn't mean it always has to be esoteric or complicated. Sometimes it's startlingly simple, at least in some areas.


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## Henu (Jan 29, 2022)

You don't have to agree, but I'm not sure if I expressed myself right if that is how you understood it.

By no means I believe in "artist in a cave" superiority either. Besides, as a full-time inhouse composer it would basically shoot myself into my own leg. Of course I try my best to always to make music as good, unique and non-forgettable as possible. Even with the smallest and most annoying gig I feel it's a code of honor to do so as well as I humanly can.

Commercially (or by commission) done art isn't any worse than what the artist in his cave does, and in fact can many times be much more better due to commercially backed-up artists having the constantly evolving skills and tools to fulfill their vision better than a lone wolf in his basement using a broken acoustic guitar only whenever he feels like it.

I'm talking solely about trying desperately to copy what's hot at the moment by making bland and obvious ripoffs, hoping to get a small piece of the success the originator did. And that's bland, forgettable and embarassing for art. If you still disagree with this, then we just have to agree to disagree.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 29, 2022)

Tralen said:


> I know this is a joke, but I think it is unfair to classify people that enjoy commercial music as stupid. They still have the other 50% of their brain, it is just that is not used for music.
> 
> It took me a while to understand it, being a musician, but it is worth to remember that most people have other professions and other interests, and I'm grateful for that.


I was going to say that 50% seems high.

But seriously, what does "commercial" mean without any context?

I mean, we know that "commerce" means buying and selling (and we know that this thread is about getting as many people to do that in as short a time as possible), but that alone doesn't say much.

Another thing we know is that commercial does not necessarily mean derivative. On the contrary, the music that sells the most is unique more often than not.

So my answer is Not enough information to know the answers.


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## JohnG (Jan 29, 2022)

Henu said:


> I'm talking solely about trying desperately to copy what's hot at the moment by making bland and obvious ripoffs, hoping to get a small piece of the success the originator did.


Ok -- if you narrow it to that, naturally that makes sense. Thank you for writing back! John

I was responding to a different insinuation that I think some have fallen into, which is the idea that something that's massively popular is by its nature inevitably bland, trivial, lacking in innovation, or otherwise awful.

Some popular art/food/poetry/painting/music/literature is like that, of course, but then there's the "Harry Potter" series, that completely broke the mould for books for kids / teens / everyone. Same as when, 45 years ago or so, John Williams reminded everyone what a symphony orchestra can do in the hands of a master.


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## Tralen (Jan 29, 2022)

bdr said:


> Of course my comment is facetious and done for a laugh, but also, not really. I often find myself double and triple thinking things because I really have no idea what the GP (‘general public’) like, or why. I love music that touches both my heart and my head. Jobim. Goldsmith. Ravel. Gene Puerling. Madison Cunningham!
> 
> I don’t necessarily think that people that enjoy commercial music are ‘stupid’, but there’s no doubt whatsoever that music appreciation is at a very low level compared to when I was listening to Top40 in the 70s and 80s. I really feel that popular music today, as a generalisation, is the equivalent of McDonalds. Mass produced, common denominator, lots of ear candy, no nutritional value and totally disposable and forgettable.


That is true, but life in the 2020s is certainly not the same as life in the 70s and 80s.

People have other things competing for (or demanding) their attention now that didn't exist before.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Jan 29, 2022)

Anyone making commercial music as a way to accrue wealth clearly has only half a brain to begin with… there are a thousand other higher-earning jobs that require a fraction of the work.

I know people here do it, but there’s really nothing different between making braaam trailer music and setting up an onlyfans page. Neither takes talent nor intelligence…. But both could easily out earn authentic artists.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 29, 2022)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Anyone making commercial music as a way to accrue wealth clearly has only half a brain to begin with… there are a thousand other higher-earning jobs that require a fraction of the work.
> 
> I know people here do it, but there’s really nothing different between making braaam trailer music and setting up an onlyfans page. Neither takes talent nor intelligence…. But both could easily out earn authentic artists.


Plus "they" already have lots of people who can sound like everyone else.


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## Arbee (Jan 29, 2022)

JohnG said:


> I was responding to a different insinuation that I think some have fallen into, which is the idea that something that's massively popular is by its nature inevitably bland, trivial, lacking in innovation, or otherwise awful.


This topic seems to have been on endless loop/replay since I can remember, perhaps starting with George Benson "selling out" because he started making music that more people enjoyed, and countless others like him. Were "The Beatles + George Martin" or "Michael Jackson + Quincy Jones" mindless morons devoid of talent? I don't think so. There will always be elitist pseudo intellectuals pontificating on this topic, but simplistically to me "commercial" in the arts equates to "of mass appeal". Targeting mass appeal may be by design, but frequently it's purely by accident, hit and miss.

I've always found it odd to deride art that resonates with people. Sure, I get that some art is intended to be complex, deep and/or niche, but isn't effective communication the core goal?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 30, 2022)

Arbee said:


> This topic seems to have been on endless loop/replay since I can remember


Two different things: accessible and commercial.


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## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Jan 30, 2022)

I would say it is much more focused these days - in a broad sense of this word. More percussive, transitions are more obvious, climaxes are more "clamixy"; less elements forced to create a bigger impact and so on.


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## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Jan 30, 2022)

Arbee said:


> This topic seems to have been on endless loop/replay since I can remember, perhaps starting with George Benson "selling out" because he started making music that more people enjoyed, and countless others like him. Were "The Beatles + George Martin" or "Michael Jackson + Quincy Jones" mindless morons devoid of talent? I don't think so. There will always be elitist pseudo intellectuals pontificating on this topic, but simplistically to me "commercial" in the arts equates to "of mass appeal". Targeting mass appeal may be by design, but frequently it's purely by accident, hit and miss.
> 
> I've always found it odd to deride art that resonates with people. Sure, I get that some art is intended to be complex, deep and/or niche, but isn't effective communication the core goal?


While it's true that sometimes such critique comes from elitism, more often it is a critique of a very real problem - the problem when marketing comes before the material itself. Marketing can make popular something pathetically bad, so the popularity itself can't serve as a criteria.


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## Arbee (Jan 30, 2022)

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> While it's true that sometimes such critique comes from elitism, more often it is a critique of a very real problem - the problem when marketing comes before the material itself. Marketing can make popular something pathetically bad, so the popularity itself can't serve as a criteria.


Can't argue too much with this point. "Celebrity" or "Entertainment" value can of course make music (or any art) more popular than it otherwise deserves. But a popular song that becomes successful time and time again in different hands perhaps qualifies as "popular art with integrity"?


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## Fab (Jan 30, 2022)

chillbot said:


> Loudness, production, structure. Making a track easily editable is most definitely commercial.
> 
> You know what might be a key to very "commercial-sounding" tracks is repetition. In library music you take easily identifiable forms like AABA or ABAB. In pop you just repeat that refrain over and over and over ad nauseum to drill it into the grey matter.
> 
> Not that you wouldn't repeat a refrain in a non-commercial song that you wrote for nobody but yourself and shared with only your mom and your dog... but it wouldn't be nearly to the extent of current top-40 pop hits where every refrain is repeated 5-6 times almost verbatim with the same intonation, might as well have just been copy-and-pasted. There, that sounds commercial to me.


I think you are on to something with structure being important.


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## Mr Greg G (Jan 31, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> Applying to all genres, what would help in getting a more “commercial sound”?


Select a "commercial" track you like or you aim to sound like. Do a mockup/cover version and try to be as close to the original as possible. If you can't get to a similar result, ask other forum members what could be done to get closer to the original.

You will learn a lot about the recording/arrangement/mixing techniques of this track doing so.


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## Soundbed (Jan 31, 2022)

Great conversation.

Being commercially successful, to me, usually means a fair number of people love it, another bunch of people hate it, and a majority of people tolerate it.

This says almost nothing of the “quality” of the music.

Sometimes it’s raw and authentic; other times it’s polished and slick (some would say “overproduced”).

But often it's quite well done. That is, with a good deal of craft.

Sure, maybe it's a bit "simplistic" — or seemingly simple — but I think of it like watching the Olympics: when amazing things are done in a seemingly effortless way and hordes of people flock to witness it, probably "simple" isn't the best descriptor; it usually reflects years of work spent honing a craft and getting really, really good at making _it_ appear simple and effortless.

Over the years various trends have come and gone and many, many different types of sounds have survived the test of time with their audience ... they usually seem to reflect a genuine attempt to connect with large numbers of people.

From the intentional accidentals of Mozart to classic Disney tunes, the Beatles' melodies and chord changes to the Backstreet Boys' acapella harmonies — *if it connects with lots of people and makes some money then it's commercial in my book*, whether it fits my personal tastes at the time or not.



gsilbers said:


> Applying to all genres, what would help in getting a more “commercial sound”?
> 
> What would be considered “commercial” you ask? Well…
> That’s depends on you.
> ...


So, I would say one needs to intentionally try to connect with an audience of around ... let's say (arbitrarily) 10,000 consumers, knowing the effort will potentially alienate an even larger audience.

Because very few are universally accepted and praised. And if they are, they frequently pissed off some people along the way. They focused on connecting with their "target audience" and grew and nurtured that connection. This, by definition almost, often pushes other audiences off to the side.

If anyone gets to the point where they're able to connect nearly universally with global audiences of all ages, then they can tell us all how they did it.


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## Loïc D (Jan 31, 2022)

I’d put Autotune on every track and a brickwall limiter set on tinnitus preset, to begin with.
The rest is up to good marketing (nude pics on TikTok may help).


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