# Process for composing/arranging to avoid parallel 5ths and octaves



## mcdoma2000 (Jan 27, 2020)

I am a relatively uneducated (music theory and process, anyway) composer. I have recently been working on arranging a piece that gave only the melody and the expected chords. I have been working on it and working on it. I have Sibelius review it by noting parallel 5ths and octaves (because, while I often can hear it, I can't seem to identify the offending notes), and when I fix one, and two more popup. References to books, etc. and any personal habits and workflows would be appreciated. Thanks!


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## d.healey (Jan 27, 2020)

There is nothing inherently wrong with parallel 5ths or octaves. The context determines if they are appropriate and what to do if they are not. There is no single answer to your question other than start deleting notes you don't like and put in ones you do.

I highly recommend you check out the orchestration classes at scoreclub.net/ and Mike Verta's orchestration classes.


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## Paul Orsoni (Jan 27, 2020)

Hi mcdoma2000,

what you are talking about here is how to lead the several voices that elaborate your harmony. There are rules for that inculding avoiding parallel 5th and 8ves.

I guess that what you are arranging is the accompaniment of that melody. For that purpose you need to think your music like the superimposition of several melodies or voices. 

when you are writing a chord succession Cmaj then Gmaj for example you will have to check that every movement of every voice that composes your harmony doesn't create parallel 5th or 8ve with the other ones when the harmony changes.

The process is as simple as that, you have to be meticulous and, with practice, it becomes more and more automatic. 

Of course when you are changing a note it might create other 5th or 8ves elsewhere so you will often have to rewrite the other voices until everything is working.

*It might be helpfull to have some very simple tools if you begin in that manner:

1-always prefer the minimum of movement for your melodic lines (including no movement)

2-You can reach 5th or 8ves by direct movement (two voices moving higher or lower in the same direction) if the upper note moves by joint movement (the note just above or below it).

3-Chord inversion is often your best friend to avoid 5th and 8ves.


I must say that orchestration as nothing to do with your problem. It is a problem about polyphony or voicing if your prefer.

I hope it was helpfull ☔


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## JT (Jan 27, 2020)

As David Healy said above, there is nothing wrong with using 5ths and 8ves. It all depends on the style of music that you're working on. In some styles, yes they should be avoided. In other styles they are used freely without hesitation.

What type of music are you working on?


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## muk (Jan 27, 2020)

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Read up about and practice part writing. It will solve your current problem.


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## José Herring (Jan 27, 2020)

mcdoma2000 said:


> I am a relatively uneducated (music theory and process, anyway) composer. I have recently been working on arranging a piece that gave only the melody and the expected chords. I have been working on it and working on it. I have Sibelius review it by noting parallel 5ths and octaves (because, while I often can hear it, I can't seem to identify the offending notes), and when I fix one, and two more popup. References to books, etc. and any personal habits and workflows would be appreciated. Thanks!


Turn that feature off if you can.

The rule of 5ths and octaves is a rule that came about around the time that the major and minor third was declassified as a dissonant interval in church music. Prior to that in Medieval times all church music was sung in what was called Parallel Organum 4ths, 5ths and octaves because they were considered the only perfect intervals suitable for God's worship.

Okay in the age of enlightenment the 3rd was allowed and to distinguish the "new" music from the old church stuff a rule was devised outlawing consecutive (parallel) motion of 5ths and octaves (and even 4ths as the 5th inverted is a fourth). The reasoning was that those intervals in parallel especially in two part writing would stand in stark contrast to the new style of music. Like you'd be going along in 3rds then 5ths and octaves would jump out at you reminding people of the old days.

From that a whole set of rules of counterpoint crept up governing 2,3 and four part writing in Church music. So the question to ask yourself is are you writing 18th century chruch music. If the answer is yes, then follow the rules, if your answer is "no" then forget about it.

All that, it's a thing of the past. It really, really is. But, from counterpoint a few good general rules came up that apply today. Firstly, is the idea of good voice leading. Finding the smoothest way of going from one chord to another. The other is chord voicing. A way to vertically arrange tones in an efficient and sonically pleasing way and a few other good rules and guidelines. Another is to a greater or lesser degree 2,3, and 4 independent parts commonly arranged today as bass, melody or lead and accompaniment.

So counterpoint is a good study but only from the perspective of what is good and ignoring what I call the "thou shall nots" of counterpoint. i.e. Thou shall not place octaves and fifths consecutively you bad bad bad boy. That is intended as a joke but if you read Fux counterpoint that's basically his argument.

That being said, good part writing is far more important than paying attention to stultifying rules that only hinder creativity because some monk back in the 17th century decided to make some stupid rule governing the use of 5ths and octaves in music.

So practically speaking if the parts are good, strong melody, good bass lines and good middle parts and the parts progress in a smooth way (unless you want to shock for good effect buy having parts jump out which is valid) and the voicings are good then don't worry about parallel motion.

Here's an example. I wrote a little choir piece a while back that breaks every counterpoint rule known to man, but it still sounds decent enough, though I wasn't too happy with the performance.


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## anjwilson (Jan 27, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Turn that feature off if you can.
> 
> The rule of 5ths and octaves is a rule that came about around the time that the major and minor third was declassified as a dissonant interval in church music. Prior to that in Medieval times all church music was sung in what was called Parallel Organum 4ths, 5ths and octaves because they were considered the only perfect intervals suitable for God's worship.
> 
> ...




The first thing every theory teacher should teach students is that any "rules" about musical structure are just norms of one or more particular styles. Once you adopt this framework, you see that these norms are springboards for expressive meaning. 

For a composer today, the prohibition of parallel fifths and octaves is mostly useful as a way to strengthen the independence of voices. Obviously, sometimes you don't want that. Haydn was particularly good at playing with that springboard. 

(Can't endorse that history of theory summary, though... 300 years of Medieval polyphony begs to differ - Machaut, Perotin, Adam de la Halle.)


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## José Herring (Jan 27, 2020)

True. I actually used "Medieval" loosely to mean chant type music. But, in truth there were so many good composers from back then that I actually mostly prefer Machaut, Perotin and others personally.


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## mcdoma2000 (Jan 27, 2020)

Thank you all so much for the quick responses! Part of the reason for my question is that I am arranging this piece for a music major - who expects that there will be few if any parallel fifths or octaves, and the other part is that I can hear that the phrases sound weak. So I ran the script and it identified parallels in the weak spots.  I will just soldier on with my training and keep working it over. 

One difficulty I'm finding is that there are quite a few leaps of a fifth in the melody, so I've been struggling with the voice leading. It's clear that voice leading is an area I will have to continue to study, particularly in my own compositions and arrangements.

Thanks again! I appreciate your help!


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## José Herring (Jan 27, 2020)

mcdoma2000 said:


> Thank you all so much for the quick responses! Part of the reason for my question is that I am arranging this piece for a music major - who expects that there will be few if any parallel fifths or octaves, and the other part is that I can hear that the phrases sound weak. So I ran the script and it identified parallels in the weak spots.  I will just soldier on with my training and keep working it over.
> 
> One difficulty I'm finding is that there are quite a few leaps of a fifth in the melody, so I've been struggling with the voice leading. It's clear that voice leading is an area I will have to continue to study, particularly in my own compositions and arrangements.
> 
> Thanks again! I appreciate your help!


Always an interesting topic which leads to spirited debate and new ideas. Thanks for posting.


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 28, 2020)

josejherring said:


> The rule of 5ths and octaves is a rule that came about around the time that the major and minor third was declassified as a dissonant interval in church music.


Regardless of any historical context....

the problem in non-keyboard music with parallel/perfect 4ths or 5ths is intonation. If there are two flutes, moving in 3rds or 6ths will be far more in tune than 4ths or 5ths. 5ths work much better in low registers with bassoon, celli etc. With the fiddles, if a 1st violin part has divisi of a perfect 4th.... ouch. 

IMO, there are 2 worlds that this stuff lives in: music theory class and the real world. With the former. meh. It's good to learn of course, but in today's world there are so many styles/genre etc that it doesn't apply to a lot of music. The latter, real world intonation problems do apply.


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## mcdoma2000 (Feb 5, 2020)

Sears Poncho said:


> Regardless of any historical context....
> 
> the problem in non-keyboard music with parallel/perfect 4ths or 5ths is intonation. If there are two flutes, moving in 3rds or 6ths will be far more in tune than 4ths or 5ths. 5ths work much better in low registers with bassoon, celli etc. With the fiddles, if a 1st violin part has divisi of a perfect 4th.... ouch.
> 
> IMO, there are 2 worlds that this stuff lives in: music theory class and the real world. With the former. meh. It's good to learn of course, but in today's world there are so many styles/genre etc that it doesn't apply to a lot of music. The latter, real world intonation problems do apply.



Thanks for bringing this up! I will keep intonation in mind!


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## ChrisHarrison (Feb 6, 2020)

Octave between bass and tenor is fine. Lots of times that happens. LOTS. 

In general if you have paralell 5ths between tenor and alto or alto and soprano it'll sound kinda ancient. Best to learn your piano skills and inversions. 

There's also a free mozart class https://www.coursera.org/learn/classical-composition
Cover's this subject quite well


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## mcdoma2000 (Feb 7, 2020)

ChrisHarrison said:


> Octave between bass and tenor is fine. Lots of times that happens. LOTS.
> 
> In general if you have paralell 5ths between tenor and alto or alto and soprano it'll sound kinda ancient. Best to learn your piano skills and inversions.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the comment and the link!


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## ChrisHarrison (Feb 11, 2020)

Also, avoiding parallels 5ths is like an instant “classical music” sound from the classical or baroque eras. Or a nice choral or “pretty” type of voice leading. 

In most music from like 1800 to today, there is a shit ton of parallels 5ths and pretty much an acceptance of that sound in most cultures. 

For example: The power chord and the blues. That’s kinda the basis for a lot of stuff, Jazz, rock, funk, hip hop blah blah edm. Modern harmony loves parallelism. Take Debussy, or John Coltrane.


It really was the most basic original harmony people used in medieval music and lots of reinassance music as well. Ancient music used it a lot and people always kinda referenced it even up til today. Gregorian chant and Machaut and Hildegard von Bingen and people like that we’re masters of some early parallel 4ths and 5ths and octaves type chords.


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## willimek (Mar 14, 2022)

Here is another explanation for the ban on parallel fifths: https://www.academia.edu/73594631/Why_are_parallel_fifths_forbidden


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