# Cubase 12 official annoucement



## oepion (Nov 10, 2021)

It seems there will be no Cubase 11.5. Also, any Cubase 11 licence activated from today onward will qualify owners for a free upgrade to the corresponding 12 version when it comes out. The current Dongle licensing system will have been superseded by the time 12 is released, which should be in the 2nd quarter of 2022 or thereabout (Cubase will be the 2nd release next year, following Dorico in "early 2022"):









New in Cubase 12: Time to Embrace a New Era


Cubase 12 features significant new features and workflow enhancements which make composing, recording, and mixing music even more creatively rewarding.




www.steinberg.net


----------



## filipjonathan (Nov 10, 2021)

Really looking forward to it, even though I'm pretty happy with 11.


----------



## Vlzmusic (Nov 10, 2021)

Couldn't find any features description, what's new etc. Has anyone seen anything besides the licensing blah blah?


----------



## nikhollis (Nov 10, 2021)

Vlzmusic said:


> Couldn't find any features description, what's new etc. Has anyone seen anything besides the licensing blah blah?


From the Steinberg forum..

"For those of you who expected to get the full list of new features and improvements in Cubase 12 today, I kindly ask for some more patience. Of course, the next generation is not only about Steinberg Licensing. We have been working on new features, workflows, and performance improvements in many different areas in order to deliver a worthy update. But I’m not going to reveal too many details and spoil the release for you. You know us — we’ll try to keep it secret for a while longer."



> I hope upgrade prices for those customers who are not eligible for free upgrade offer and activated Cubase 11 Pro previously wil not be higher than now? (99EUR or 159EUR)


"The update from Cubase 11 to Cubase 12 will probably be EUR 99."


----------



## Vlzmusic (Nov 10, 2021)

nikhollis said:


> From the Steinberg forum..
> 
> "For those of you who expected to get the full list of new features and improvements in Cubase 12 today, I kindly ask for some more patience. Of course, the next generation is not only about Steinberg Licensing. We have been working on new features, workflows, and performance improvements in many different areas in order to deliver a worthy update. But I’m not going to reveal too many details and spoil the release for you. You know us — we’ll try to keep it secret for a while longer."
> 
> ...


Thanks, I've never been to that forum actually. Meanwhile the Cubase 12 page looks pretty solid as it is, with a picture of someone's back, suspiciously looking like Homay Schmitz from Spitfire... Is it a hint of an orchestral Cubase edition? 😄


----------



## Zedcars (Nov 10, 2021)

oepion said:


> Also, any Cubase 11 licence activated from today onward will qualify owners for a free upgrade to the corresponding 12 version when it comes out.


That's fantastic. I bought the update to v11 in July when there was 40% off. Only paid £51. But didn't activate it yet as was waiting for v11.5. Pretty neat that I can now get v12 if I activate today (at least, that's what I'm hoping).


----------



## RogiervG (Nov 10, 2021)

There might be a 11.5, but it's minor update so less fanfare needed. They mention specifically 12, because of the change in license activation system. (the dongles less system) and the impact.


----------



## YK47 (Nov 10, 2021)

Absolutely horrid!!! New licensing system is horrible... The dongles were the best things ever! Especially if you are working on many different systems. You pick up your dongles with you and you are free to work.









Steinberg Licensing: A New and Exciting Era Begins


The transition to Steinberg Licensing begins. Our products will use this new system when introducing new versions of our creative tools and instruments.




www.steinberg.net


----------



## RogiervG (Nov 10, 2021)

YK47 said:


> Absolutely horrid!!! New licensing system is horrible... The dongles were the best things ever! Especially if you are working on many different systems. You pick up your dongles with you and you are free to work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well you can soon generate "offline activations", on a computer that has internet access, that you can install on offline computers (those activations are usable for one year at a time). Not sure if the activation is roaming (install it for use, deinstall it once your done with that computer), or that each activation is tied to a computer ID (not roaming). So if you need more computers, you generate more offline activations.. 
That info is not known at this date.


----------



## YK47 (Nov 10, 2021)

All this was unneeded... just because some little kids hated the dongles as they could not get the product on "questionable" websites for free.
Then you have another tiny minority that moans about dongles. But most people who use them have absolutely no problem with them. I love them in fact.


----------



## Vlzmusic (Nov 10, 2021)

YK47 said:


> All this was unneeded... just because some little kids hated the dongles as they could not get the product on "questionable" websites for free.
> Then you have another tiny minority that moans about dongles. But most people who use them have absolutely no problem with them. I love them in fact.


You have a point, but I know I like Ilok better, and was hoping everyone would jump ship, like VSL. Having two dongles was a bit too much, don't you think.


----------



## RogiervG (Nov 10, 2021)

I too don't have a problem with the dongles, but online activation is a lot easier. No more messing with drivers (pace/elicencer), just log in on the application or manager app and done.
Some systems even allow to disable a device from the website of the vendor. 
Also if you loose the dongle, or it gets broken, you cannot use the product anymore, till you have a backup dongle and new license on it. (which can take some days: waiting for new dongle to be delivered, and for a new license)


----------



## Pablocrespo (Nov 10, 2021)

YK47 said:


> All this was unneeded... just because some little kids hated the dongles as they could not get the product on "questionable" websites for free.
> Then you have another tiny minority that moans about dongles. But most people who use them have absolutely no problem with them. I love them in fact.


I think, they did it because the licenser was cracked and needed a new protection


----------



## cedricm (Nov 10, 2021)

Please correct the title: "Cubase 12 Official Non-Announcement".


----------



## nikhollis (Nov 10, 2021)

YK47 said:


> All this was unneeded... just because some little kids hated the dongles as they could not get the product on "questionable" websites for free.
> Then you have another tiny minority that moans about dongles. But most people who use them have absolutely no problem with them. I love them in fact.


I have never had a problem with them, I was rather looking forward to the 11.5 update - as I do every year..., but there you go...... they'll do what they think is best, hopefully be worth the wait.


----------



## RogiervG (Nov 10, 2021)

cedricm said:


> Please correct the title: "Cubase 12 Official Non-Announcement".


"official non-accouncement"? what's that?
it's an official thing (cubase 12 in 2022) and as such an announcement of sorts.
Steinberg themselves wrote that on facebook, and other social media aswell.


----------



## pixel (Nov 10, 2021)

Pablocrespo said:


> I think, they did it because the licenser was cracked and needed a new protection


Years ago, there was an announcement from crackers who cracked older Cubase versions. They estimated the time needed to crack the new eLicenser to several years (continuous non-stop work). So, if somebody started from the time when last Cubase was cracked (about 20 years is my guess?), then cracker(s) sacrificed all that time to crack Cubase... Just to be informed a few months later that Cubase will have a new license system that will be cracked probably within a few hours* Epic fail. 

*I don't think that eLicenser/Cubase was ever cracked.


----------



## RogiervG (Nov 10, 2021)

pixel said:


> *I don't think that eLicenser/Cubase was ever cracked.


to my knowledge this is indeed the situation. No working cracks where made with the newer generation e-licensers. Earlier generations (Synchrosoft it was called back then) where however cracked.

I think the reason why they stop with the e-licenser system, is that it's too rigid, too maintenance heavy (a lot of legacy code i recon). And with the online world we have since years, it's old fashioned too. (at least have a dongle less option, which e-licenser cannot provide)


----------



## Germain B (Nov 10, 2021)

There are actually cracked version of Steinberg products including Cubase 11 Pro out there.

I never had an issue with the dongle and my computer is 99% of the time offline so I'm not really pleased with this new system...
But as they allow a 30 days offline activation it might just be fine.
I'm not sure but this upcoming 1 year offline activation might not be free, right ?



> [...] very soon we will provide the ability to check out a license for a period of one year.


----------



## jamwerks (Nov 10, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> to my knowledge this is indeed the situation. No working cracks where made with the newer generation e-licensers. Earlier generations (Synchrosoft it was called back then) where however cracked.
> 
> I think the reason why they stop with the e-licenser system, is that it's too rigid, too maintenance heavy (a lot of legacy code i recon). And with the online world we have since years, it's old fashioned too. (at least have a dongle less option, which e-licenser cannot provide)


I think we can all rest assured, that with the hundreds of millions of dollars at stake, their SF protection systems is in good hands, and undoubtedly work.


----------



## RogiervG (Nov 10, 2021)

Germain B said:


> There are actually cracked version of Steinberg products including Cubase 11 Pro out there.
> 
> I never had an issue with the dongle and my computer is 99% of the time offline so I'm not really pleased with this new system...
> But as they allow a 30 days offline activation it might just be fine.
> I'm not sure but this upcoming 1 year offline activation might not be free, right ?


I doubt that cracked version works, and doesn't crash within minutes.

as for the offline, well:
"We know that in some special circumstances, you might not be able to connect the computer on which you run your Steinberg software to the internet, and very soon we will provide the ability to check out a license for a period of one year. " - As per their news text.
Not sure how this works out, if it costs or not.. or that you are needing to confirm to a special agreement (additional), since a year is very long.


----------



## Germain B (Nov 10, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> I doubt that cracked version works, and doesn't crash within minutes.


Ah yes, that's another story.


----------



## SteveC (Nov 10, 2021)

YK47 said:


> All this was unneeded... just because some little kids hated the dongles as they could not get the product on "questionable" websites for free.
> Then you have another tiny minority that moans about dongles. But most people who use them have absolutely no problem with them. I love them in fact.


Thank you for calling me a child. But I have spent a lot of money on certain programs, so I expect a little more trust from the developers.


----------



## Laddy (Nov 10, 2021)

Hobbyist music production is such a huge market. This may not be representative, but for what its worth, none of the kids I talk with at school (I'm a teacher) are interested in Cubase. They all seem to gravitate towards FL studio.. I think dropping the dongle is necessary to have as much as a theoretical chance to recruit any of these new beat makers


----------



## cleverr1 (Nov 10, 2021)

So anyone using Cubase 12 has to login to Steinberg once a month or their software stops working. If Steinberg were to go bust we'd all lose our software for good. This could be a pre-cursor to them moving to a subscription service.

I see this as terrible news for the end users.


----------



## Michael Antrum (Nov 10, 2021)

cleverr1 said:


> So anyone using Cubase 12 has to login to Steinberg once a month or their software stops working. If Steinberg were to go bust we'd all lose our software for good. This could be a pre-cursor to them moving to a subscription service.
> 
> I see this as terrible news for the end users.


They are owned by Yamaha aren’t they ?


----------



## cleverr1 (Nov 10, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> They are owned by Yamaha aren’t they ?


Yes I understand so. So long as they remain part of Yamaha's strategy it should be secure, but that could change at any time.

However, I'm not comfortable with them creating a dependency on an online presence in perpetuity, or having to jump through the hoop that is monthly activation. I remember the utter chaos when they launched Cubase 11 and their licence servers couldn't cope leaving some users without a working Cubase until they fixed it. So it needs to be scaled to cope with the demand this time.

I just hope they implement it better than Roland Cloud. Their client constantly loses saved credentials here and pops up demanding them in the most irritating way I could imagine.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Nov 10, 2021)

cleverr1 said:


> So anyone using Cubase 12 has to login to Steinberg once a month or their software stops working. If Steinberg were to go bust we'd all lose our software for good. This could be a pre-cursor to them moving to a subscription service.
> 
> I see this as terrible news for the end users.


Is that how it's going to work? 

My issue with the dongle was they only offered 1. And there's no way i was gonna move it from one machine to an other and constantly fear i could brake that "1" dongle etc. So i moved on. Thinking i might come back thinking they might make it easier but it looks like they might actually make it worse. Why won't they move to Ilock like everybody else and offer 2 or 3 licence so people can rest easy. Anyway, we'll see.


----------



## KEM (Nov 10, 2021)

Just bought 11 since the grace period starts today, very excited!!


----------



## Michael Antrum (Nov 10, 2021)

Where does it say licences activated from today will get an upgrade to 12 ? Can’t see it on their announcement page ?


----------



## KEM (Nov 10, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> Where does it say licences activated from today will get an upgrade to 12 ? Can’t see it on their announcement page ?











New in Cubase 12: Time to Embrace a New Era


Cubase 12 features significant new features and workflow enhancements which make composing, recording, and mixing music even more creatively rewarding.




www.steinberg.net


----------



## Geocranium (Nov 10, 2021)

cleverr1 said:


> So anyone using Cubase 12 has to login to Steinberg once a month or their software stops working. If Steinberg were to go bust we'd all lose our software for good. This could be a pre-cursor to them moving to a subscription service.
> 
> I see this as terrible news for the end users.


They've stated in their FAQ that they don't ever intend on phasing out perpetual licenses, even if they do eventually introduce subscription-based plans.


----------



## RogiervG (Nov 10, 2021)

Laddy said:


> Hobbyist music production is such a huge market. This may not be representative, but for what its worth, none of the kids I talk with at school (I'm a teacher) are interested in Cubase. They all seem to gravitate towards FL studio.. I think dropping the dongle is necessary to have as much as a theoretical chance to recruit any of these new beat makers


Also a lot of mouth to mouth "advice" is in play  Children are very "motivated" in wanting things, because a famous beat maker uses it. (reference they want to be associated with)


----------



## Geocranium (Nov 10, 2021)

YK47 said:


> All this was unneeded... just because some little kids hated the dongles as they could not get the product on "questionable" websites for free.
> Then you have another tiny minority that moans about dongles. But most people who use them have absolutely no problem with them. I love them in fact.


I truly do not understand how anyone could _like _dongles. Why for the love of god would you want to carry around software licenses on a physical piece of hardware that can stop working or break or get lost or get stolen? It's introducing all of the risks of owning a physical object to a piece of software for absolutely no advantage. One of the biggest advantages of software is that it completely abolishes all of those risks, but dongles just bring them back.

Every single piece of functionality that a dongle provides can be done via software with _none _of the risks that physical objects have. There is basically zero reason for dongles to even exist at this point.


----------



## cleverr1 (Nov 10, 2021)

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Is that how it's going to work?
> 
> My issue with the dongle was they only offered 1. And there's no way i was gonna move it from one machine to an other and constantly fear i could brake that "1" dongle etc. So i moved on. Thinking i might come back thinking they might make it easier but it looks like they might actually make it worse. Why won't they move to Ilock like everybody else and offer 2 or 3 licence so people can rest easy. Anyway, we'll see.


There was outrage on KVR when VPS Avenger moved to CodeMeter requiring activation every 3 months where before the licence was perpetual, and this feels the same.

I get the concern over 1 dongle. I keep mine attached to a short USB extension cable so it's never exposed to being broken by a knock whether it's plugged into the main DAW or laptop. That's not to say it can't fail, but I've never had an eLicenser failure since they were introduced. There is a zero downtime service so I'm very comfortable with things just the way they are.

I also would much prefer a shift to iLok with a perpetual licence. Maybe it's a lack of confidence in its security?

Other vendors employ periodical on-line activation methods, but Steinberg never has so this is a big shift - in the wrong direction for end users IMHO.


----------



## pixel (Nov 10, 2021)

Laddy said:


> Hobbyist music production is such a huge market. This may not be representative, but for what its worth, none of the kids I talk with at school (I'm a teacher) are interested in Cubase. They all seem to gravitate towards FL studio.. I think dropping the dongle is necessary to have as much as a theoretical chance to recruit any of these new beat makers


It's not going to work. Except if they remake Cubase entirely with a very simplified interface. And even then, it can take years or decades before the younger generation will not look at Cubase as ProTools for very old composers  Steinberg would have to fight against thousands of replies from FL/Ableton tents when a newbie is asking what DAW to use to make mad beats 

Yes, following overall opinions from youngsters, Cubase is for old farts with dad-bods that are blocking access to computer keyboard


----------



## cleverr1 (Nov 10, 2021)

Geocranium said:


> I truly do not understand how anyone could _like _dongles. Why for the love of god would you want to carry around software licenses on a physical piece of hardware that can stop working or break or get lost or get stolen? It's introducing all of the risks of owning a physical object to a piece of software for absolutely no advantage. One of the biggest advantages of software is that it completely abolishes all of those risks, but dongles just bring them back.
> 
> Every single piece of functionality that a dongle provides can be done via software with _none _of the risks that physical objects have. There is basically zero reason for dongles to even exist at this point.


1) Beats the heck out of having to activate "your" software every 30 days here!
2) Zero Downtime avoids any risk of the reliance on a single piece of hardware. 
3) It simplifies migration to a new computer massively. Many softwares with a limited number of activations rely on hardware. Anyone who's had a software iLok or eLicenser on a failed hard drive would know all about this.


----------



## Geocranium (Nov 10, 2021)

cleverr1 said:


> 1) Beats the heck out of having to activate "your" software every 30 days here!
> 2) Zero Downtime avoids any risk of the reliance on a single piece of hardware.
> 3) It simplifies migration to a new computer massively. Many softwares with a limited number of activations rely on hardware. Anyone who's had a software iLok or eLicenser on a failed hard drive would know all about this.


Zero Downtime (at least for iLok) either requires a second backup dongle to work immediately, or you still have to wait for the RMA replacement to arrive before you can use it again. ALSO ZDT is an extra subscription based fee! 

You only have to "reactivate" the license as a process if you don't have an internet connection. If you do, the license is verified every time you open the software. I am 1000 times more likely to lose a small piece of hardware than I am to ever not have access to an internet connection. I don't even remember the last time I used a computer that didn't have regular internet access. 

Also your complaint about license reactivation isn't a pro for dongles, it's a complaint about bad software license implementation. Migrating your software licenses to a new device should be as simple as logging in to the new device with your account. You shouldn't have to deactivate old licenses, and they shouldn't be tied to hardware, because that once again introduces all of the problems a dongle has. Every complaint you've made about hard drive failure applies equally to the dongle. Software licensing should rely _entirely_ on software based solutions. Steam does a good software licensing implemention: download the Steam client software on your computer and then just log in to your account and bam, you now have access to all of your licensed software with no further limitation. Dongles are just completely unnecessary at this point. There is nothing a dongle does that couldn't be better implemented with software. They are a tool of the past.


----------



## Laddy (Nov 10, 2021)

pixel said:


> It's not going to work. Except if they remake Cubase entirely with a very simplified interface. And even then, it can take years or decades before the younger generation will not look at Cubase as ProTools for very old composers  Steinberg would have to fight against thousands of replies from FL/Ableton tents when a newbie is asking what DAW to use to make mad beats
> 
> Yes, following overall opinions from youngsters, Cubase is for old farts with dad-bods that are blocking access to computer keyboard


Sad but true!


----------



## YK47 (Nov 10, 2021)

Geocranium said:


> I truly do not understand how anyone could _like _dongles. Why for the love of god would you want to carry around software licenses on a physical piece of hardware that can stop working or break or get lost or get stolen? It's introducing all of the risks of owning a physical object to a piece of software for absolutely no advantage. One of the biggest advantages of software is that it completely abolishes all of those risks, but dongles just bring them back.
> 
> Every single piece of functionality that a dongle provides can be done via software with _none _of the risks that physical objects have. There is basically zero reason for dongles to even exist at this point.


Why? It is very simple. You do not have to authorise AND de-authorise your software to a machine you might be working on for the weekend, or during the week away from base, or wanting to jam at your friends', or at the rehearsal room and so on and on and on and on, or gig somewhere. When you offer professional products you are supposed to cover ALL professional needs. You visit the e-licenser ONCE a year to update your .5 or .0 license and that's it. For a WHOLE year you forget about it. Now you have to log on to authorise A MACHINE every now and then. Then what? You have to de-authorise? While I can just walk wherever I want with my dongle and my preference files etc and be able to work like I am at home without worrying about files left at the registry, without having to rely on INTERNET CONNECTION etc etc. We have no internet connection to a rehearsal space for example. What are we supposed to do... drop a license in there forever, or drag the old desktop machine back home with us? 

There is nothing better than a dongle. It is YOURS! You do not have to worry about forgetting your licenses anywhere. 

A professional company has to cover ALL professional needs. And carrying a dongle with you is not a biggie. It is no different than carrying your car or home keys. 

Dongles are great. I even put my PA and waves licenses on a usb stick and I could not care less if I have 3 usb ports taken by them (usb-key, ilok, e-licenser).


----------



## YK47 (Nov 10, 2021)

Laddy said:


> Hobbyist music production is such a huge market. This may not be representative, but for what its worth, none of the kids I talk with at school (I'm a teacher) are interested in Cubase. They all seem to gravitate towards FL studio.. I think dropping the dongle is necessary to have as much as a theoretical chance to recruit any of these new beat makers


Cubase is the best selling daw in Europe at least. That goes saying how many of the ableton/fl users are legit customers. Kids watch their first videos on youtube... You get my point.


----------



## José Herring (Nov 10, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> That's fantastic. I bought the update to v11 in July when there was 40% off. Only paid £51. But didn't activate it yet as was waiting for v11.5. Pretty neat that I can now get v12 if I activate today (at least, that's what I'm hoping).


Smart, Smart man.


----------



## Laddy (Nov 10, 2021)

YK47 said:


> Cubase is the best selling daw in Europe at least. ..


Really? That's interesting. Hope you are right. Cubase is my DAW of choice, and I hope they will stay relevant.


----------



## easyrider (Nov 10, 2021)

YK47 said:


> Cubase is the best selling daw in Europe at least.


Any links to backup this up?


----------



## cleverr1 (Nov 10, 2021)

Geocranium said:


> Zero Downtime (at least for iLok) either requires a second backup dongle to work immediately, or you still have to wait for the RMA replacement to arrive before you can use it again. ALSO ZDT is an extra subscription based fee!
> 
> You only have to "reactivate" the license as a process if you don't have an internet connection. If you do, the license is verified every time you open the software. I am 1000 times more likely to lose a small piece of hardware than I am to ever not have access to an internet connection. I don't even remember the last time I used a computer that didn't have regular internet access.
> 
> Also your complaint about license reactivation isn't a pro for dongles, it's a complaint about bad software license implementation. Migrating your software licenses to a new device should be as simple as logging in to the new device with your account. You shouldn't have to deactivate old licenses, and they shouldn't be tied to hardware, because that once again introduces all of the problems a dongle has. Every complaint you've made about hard drive failure applies equally to the dongle. Software licensing should rely _entirely_ on software based solutions. Steam does a good software licensing implemention: download the Steam client software on your computer and then just log in to your account and bam, you now have access to all of your licensed software with no further limitation. Dongles are just completely unnecessary at this point. There is nothing a dongle does that couldn't be better implemented with software. They are a tool of the past.


Unless I'm very much mistaken this isn't the current reality though is it? All I know is that currently and since the '90s a physical dongle has worked perfectly. No "complaint" or question here - just a statement of fact.
Good luck, but logging in once every 30 days or it all breaks isn't an acceptable option here.


----------



## easyrider (Nov 10, 2021)

cleverr1 said:


> Unless I'm very much mistaken this isn't the current reality though is it? All I know is that currently and since the '90s a physical dongle has worked perfectly. No "complaint" or question here - just a statement of fact.
> Good luck, but logging in once every 30 days or it all breaks isn't an acceptable option here.


And how many times has the e licencer server been down?
People buying Cubase and unable to use it for days….


----------



## Aitcpiano (Nov 10, 2021)

So what type of licensing are they moving too? I've never had any issues with Elicenser and I personally like dongles as it stops piracy. None of VSL products have been torrented because they used Elicenser and all the Cubase versions using Elicenser have not been cracked. Why are they moving away from it?


----------



## YK47 (Nov 10, 2021)

easyrider said:


> And how many times has the e licencer server been down?
> People buying Cubase and unable to use it for days….


Well if they all try to download a 60gb file at the same time (before c11 it was ok.. it was when they changed the download from one big file to almost 20 that it started causing troubles as each customer had 20 connections going on at the same time). Regardless... I would not be surprised if it was even done on purpose to excuse the "changes".


----------



## YK47 (Nov 10, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Any links to backup this up?


I worked for years in the MI retail.. and also you can see it on vendors' websites on sales ranks. FL has an offer at the moment and sells quite well this last week, especially after kids are worried that W11 is really telling the big daddy what is going on on their computer.


----------



## easyrider (Nov 10, 2021)

YK47 said:


> I worked for years in the MI retail.. and also you can see it on vendors' websites on sales ranks. FL has an offer at the moment and sells quite well this last week, especially after kids are worried that W11 is really telling the big daddy what is going on on their computer.


?


----------



## Geocranium (Nov 10, 2021)

YK47 said:


> Why? It is very simple. You do not have to authorise AND de-authorise your software to a machine you might be working on for the weekend, or during the week away from base, or wanting to jam at your friends', or at the rehearsal room and so on and on and on and on, or gig somewhere. When you offer professional products you are supposed to cover ALL professional needs. You visit the e-licenser ONCE a year to update your .5 or .0 license and that's it. For a WHOLE year you forget about it. Now you have to log on to authorise A MACHINE every now and then. Then what? You have to de-authorise? While I can just walk wherever I want with my dongle and my preference files etc and be able to work like I am at home without worrying about files left at the registry, without having to rely on INTERNET CONNECTION etc etc. We have no internet connection to a rehearsal space for example. What are we supposed to do... drop a license in there forever, or drag the old desktop machine back home with us?


A lot of people are getting hung up on bad software license implementation here. What I am proposing is exactly the same as having a dongle, just replace every single pro you listed the dongle having with "logging into an account." The only preference becomes whether or not you think it's easier to plug a USB stick in vs type a username and password. You do not have to deauthorize software licenses. You do not have to "register" machines. You literally just type in a username and password and it works _exactly_ the same way as plugging in a dongle.

The only time a dongle has an edge is if you have no internet connection, but I just cannot imagine doing work on a machine with no internet. Everything is connected to the internet nowadays. A rehearsal space with no internet is just bizarre to me, it feels like you're operating in ancient times. I guess in that case yes, a dongle would be better, but it's so niche a use case that it doesn't come anywhere near justifying the huge list of cons a dongle has.



> There is nothing better than a dongle. It is YOURS! You do not have to worry about forgetting your licenses anywhere.
> 
> A professional company has to cover ALL professional needs. And carrying a dongle with you is not a biggie. It is no different than carrying your car or home keys.


Haha what?? A dongle is the one case where you DO have the possibility of forgetting your licenses. Oops I left my dongle at home, looks like I'm SOL. It's great that you don't find it an inconvenience, but you cannot argue that carrying a physical object is more convenient than using a simple login credential to access something. 

Imagine I have to carry a USB stick with me if I want to use Photoshop. It'd be a nightmare having to track and keep safe the physical USB dongle just so I can use a piece of software. Instead, I just log in to my Adobe account on any computer I want and it works hassle free. Mine, a friend's, a work machine. They all just instantly work.


----------



## Geocranium (Nov 10, 2021)

cleverr1 said:


> Unless I'm very much mistaken this isn't the current reality though is it? All I know is that currently and since the '90s a physical dongle has worked perfectly. No "complaint" or question here - just a statement of fact.


It is the model that Steinberg is proposing for their new DRM as far as I know, so it's coming. I disagree that the dongle has worked perfectly. I've lost one in a move and had one break on me. Every time I have to move it from one area to the next I have to carefully remember where I put it so I don't lose it. From a design perspective it makes no sense. The beauty of software is that you can leave physical based annoyances like this behind, that's why I want to move on from dongles and embrace all change. This industry has moved so slow on these kinds of innovations; other software has been doing this so much better for _years._



> Good luck, but logging in once every 30 days or it all breaks isn't an acceptable option here.


Can you really not imagine a software based solution that doesn't have this problem? If you were tasked with designing a purely software based DRM to replace the dongle, are you really saying you couldn't come up with anything that surpasses the dongle's convenience and realiability?


----------



## YK47 (Nov 10, 2021)

Geocranium said:


> A lot of people are getting hung up on bad software license implementation here. What I am proposing is exactly the same as having a dongle, just replace every single pro you listed the dongle having with "logging into an account." The only preference becomes whether or not you think it's easier to plug a USB stick in vs type a username and password. You do not have to deauthorize software licenses. You do not have to "register" machines. You literally just type in a username and password and it works _exactly_ the same way as plugging in a dongle.
> 
> The only time a dongle has an edge is if you have no internet connection, but I just cannot imagine doing work on a machine with no internet. Everything is connected to the internet nowadays. A rehearsal space with no internet is just bizarre to me, it feels like you're operating in ancient times. I guess in that case yes, a dongle would be better, but it's so niche a use case that it doesn't come anywhere near justifying the huge list of cons a dongle has.
> 
> ...


First of all.. if you forget the dongle at home you can only blame yourself. If there is not any internet connection at some location or for 1000s of other reasons you prefer to stay offline on a certain machine (avoiding windows updates is a valid reason) then it is something beyond your absend mind that forgot to take a key with you.

Internet connection causes SPIKES on many machines... though I guess you could log in on your account and then turn the internet off but there is a catch even to that (still it is wasting your time compared to just plugging your dongle). 

If you log yourself into the machine... the machine is authorised for 30 days. You can only use two machines. So you would have to deauthorise one to work on a third one. Similar thing happens with Sylenth. 

They said they would give the opportunitiy to offline activate and it would last for a year... 

With the dongle you do not have to worry about such things. It works. Now.... imagine having to authorise PLUGINS on top of a DAW. It all adds up to waste your time really. I want to use an ilok plugin on someone else's system? Easy! I install the plugin and that's it. Do that with other forms of protection. And then having to dive into registry keys to remove possible license leftovers when you are done. 

Photoshop is not the same. And it is not a real time process with possible DPC latency issues.


----------



## YK47 (Nov 10, 2021)

Geocranium said:


> It is the model that Steinberg is proposing for their new DRM as far as I know, so it's coming. I disagree that the dongle has worked perfectly. I've lost one in a move and had one break on me. Every time I have to move it from one area to the next I have to carefully remember where I put it so I don't lose it. From a design perspective it makes no sense. The beauty of software is that you can leave physical based annoyances like this behind, that's why I want to move on from dongles and embrace all change. This industry has moved so slow on these kinds of innovations; other software has been doing this so much better for _years._
> 
> 
> Can you really not imagine a software based solution that doesn't have this problem? If you were tasked with designing a purely software based DRM to replace the dongle, are you really saying you couldn't come up with anything that surpasses the dongle's convenience and realiability?


Nothing surpasses the dongle's convenience and reliability no.


----------



## rgames (Nov 10, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> just log in on the application or manager app and done


Not quite. This is how it works with Waves:

1. Log in to license manager app on Computer A.
2. Wait five minutes for software update on Computer A.
3. Log back in to license manager app on Computer A.
4. Navigate to tab where you deactivate licenses.
5. Deactivate licenses.
6. Exit license manager app.
7. Log in to license manager app on Computer B.
8. Wait five minutes for software update on Computer B.
9. Log back in to license manager app on Computer B.
10. Navigate to tab where you activate licenses.
11. Activate licenses.
12. Exit license manager app.


Compare that to a dongle:

1. Unplug dongle from Computer A.
2. Plug dongle in to Computer B.


----------



## rgames (Nov 10, 2021)

Geocranium said:


> It's introducing all of the risks of owning a physical object to a piece of software for absolutely no advantage.


I know - nobody keeps track of physical objects any longer.

I mean, except for keys.

And cell phones, of course.

And IDs.

Oh yeah, and passports.

Well, and wallets of course.

And meds.

And and and...

A dongle is not an issue for any human being over the age of about 10.

rgames


----------



## Geocranium (Nov 10, 2021)

YK47 said:


> Nothing surpasses the dongle's convenience and reliability no.


We'll have to agree to disagree on this one then. I'm just glad companies are finally starting to move on.


----------



## Geocranium (Nov 10, 2021)

rgames said:


> I know - nobody keeps track of physical objects any longer.
> 
> I mean, except for keys.
> 
> ...


Jesus what a stupid response. The point is that a dongle doesn't HAVE to exist physically. It's taking something digital and stupidly bringing it into the physical world. If every item you listed could be replaced with a digital version stored on a digital keychain, I'd take that immediately. Actually everything except meds and the phone can be. I don't even carry my wallet on me anymore, because everything I carry in a wallet I have access to digitally on my phone now. My car turns on without a key, I can let myself in my house without a key. Physical keys can exist as a backup, but insisting that they exist as the primary means of accessing things is just beyond idiotic.

Do you want to carry around a keyring that has a dongle for every website you log into? How about every piece of software you use, just let me find my keyring so I can find my Windows dongle so I can plug in my Chrome dongle and log in with my VI Control dongle. You're over the age of 10 so it shouldn't be a problem to keep track of them!

I'm so glad people like you don't pioneer any kind of modern software. Enjoy plugging in your USB keys like it's a year that starts with a 1. You have entirely too much confidence for someone with absolutely zero understanding of software design.

I'm done with arguing this. I'm just glad that in the grand scheme I've won and the dongle is dead for Cubase.


----------



## composingkeys (Nov 10, 2021)

You also get two activations in the new licensing system which is plus. We'll see how complicated it is when it becomes available.


----------



## kitekrazy (Nov 10, 2021)

Vlzmusic said:


> You have a point, but I know I like Ilok better, and was hoping everyone would jump ship, like VSL. Having two dongles was a bit too much, don't you think.


I have 3. I still use the Reason Ignition Key for one system. I've kept Cubase on one and VSL on another. One system has 3 and not to mention an iLok.

I think Yamaha is ditching eLicenser since it really doesn't have a lot of clients.


----------



## kitekrazy (Nov 10, 2021)

Laddy said:


> Hobbyist music production is such a huge market. This may not be representative, but for what its worth, none of the kids I talk with at school (I'm a teacher) are interested in Cubase. They all seem to gravitate towards FL studio.. I think dropping the dongle is necessary to have as much as a theoretical chance to recruit any of these new beat makers


Lifetime updates, great community forum where developers participate, constantly updated, go far in a market.


----------



## kitekrazy (Nov 10, 2021)

YK47 said:


> Cubase is the best selling daw in Europe at least. That goes saying how many of the ableton/fl users are legit customers. Kids watch their first videos on youtube... You get my point.


People like to bash the beat maker kids. You can create something right away with FL and Live. Those apps are like the others that once below the surface they are as deep as any DAW out there. Free lifetime updates is what make FL Studio popular. Let's not forget Reaper also quite a following.


----------



## pistacchio (Nov 10, 2021)

YK47 said:


> Absolutely horrid!!! New licensing system is horrible... The dongles were the best things ever! Especially if you are working on many different systems. You pick up your dongles with you and you are free to work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OOOOOr… You remember your username, your password, and you are free to work, like literally any other software works.


----------



## pistacchio (Nov 10, 2021)

Non


YK47 said:


> Why? It is very simple. You do not have to authorise AND de-authorise your software to a machine you might be working on for the weekend, or during the week away from base, or wanting to jam at your friends', or at the rehearsal room and so on and on and on and on, or gig somewhere. When you offer professional products you are supposed to cover ALL professional needs. You visit the e-licenser ONCE a year to update your .5 or .0 license and that's it. For a WHOLE year you forget about it. Now you have to log on to authorise A MACHINE every now and then. Then what? You have to de-authorise? While I can just walk wherever I want with my dongle and my preference files etc and be able to work like I am at home without worrying about files left at the registry, without having to rely on INTERNET CONNECTION etc etc. We have no internet connection to a rehearsal space for example. What are we supposed to do... drop a license in there forever, or drag the old desktop machine back home with us?
> 
> There is nothing better than a dongle. It is YOURS! You do not have to worry about forgetting your licenses anywhere.
> 
> ...


I Hope you realize you’re talking from a 15-year old point of view.
Today, professionals in any field use professional software they access with a combination of username / password. Preferences are stored in the cloud. You more often than not have your super powerful laptops so it’s not you that go to a machine in a different place, but it’s your machine that goes with you. Your television, your fridge, your toaster are connected to the internet, let alone any computer. If a computer is not connected to the internet you can connect it via your phone.

It really seems to me that you whine for the sake of complaining. Now, if your day-to-day job is to go work for whatever reason everyday in a different computer (why?!) in a shielded cave (why?!), I hope you acknowledge that’s *your* problem since 99.99% of the user base just have a normal, powerful computer at home or in the studio, they make a coffee, sit at the computer, check their morning emails and log into Cubaee to start their working session.


----------



## gedlig (Nov 10, 2021)

Also some developers (Presonus) give you 5 licenses, that you can use on 5 different machines, and they don't require the occasional internet connection to validate anything. Activate, disable internet, done. Work on multiple machines? Sure, go ahead, only thing stopping you are the stupid developers who give you a license for a single machine. So saying some stupid piece of plastic is in some mentally deficient way superior to just logging in is I don't even know how to describe. If you like dongles, that's fine, it's your problem, but most people just want to use the products they bought without going through hoops, because some sensitive and insecure developers fear pirating by people, most of whom would've never bought it in the first place. With the dongle Steinberg prevented pirating the pro version... But elements is available with all the limitations removed... Wow I wonder how pirates can cope using only elements without any of its limitations


----------



## Laddy (Nov 10, 2021)

I hope the implemantation will be like Adobe, so that you can deactivate other machines FROM the machine you want to work on. That solution works really well, IMHO.

All in all, I'm happy with this, since it will be much easier to switch between one desktop and one laptop, which is all I need. The Usb-key is too fragile, I think, especially on a laptop.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Nov 10, 2021)

Why every month? Why not every 6 months? or 3 months at most. I might be willing to go along with this but it's annoying. And frankly, i don't think it's fair for developers to impose this annoyance on consumers. I don't need a dongle to use a software? THEY need it to protect THEIR software. And it's their responsibility to make that process as painless as possible for customers. We need to start looking at it this way and make ourselves heard. And Steinberg fanboys need to get on board and stop sucking that Steinberg dongle and fight for their interests. We need to make enough noise to force them to a compromise. Every month is too much and not necessary. And frankly, it's insulting. They pass their problem onto us remember?

edited: Seriously, it's OK to complain and fight for your interests. Espeacially when you're being treated unfairly.


----------



## Michael Antrum (Nov 10, 2021)

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Why every month? Why not every 6 months? or 3 months at most. I might be willing to go along with this but it's annoying. And frankly, i don't think it's fair for developers to impose this annoyance on consumers. I don't need a dongle to use a software? THEY need it to protect THEIR software. And it's their responsibility to make that process as painless as possible for customers. We need to start looking at it this way and make ourselves heard. And Steinberg fanboys need to get on board and stop sucking that Steinberg dongle and fight for their interests. We need to make enough noise to force them to a compromise. Every month is too much and not necessary. And frankly, it's insulting. They pass their problem onto us remember?
> 
> edited: Seriously, it's OK to complain and fight for your interests. Espeacially when you're being treated unfairly.


They are going to offer a year long activation too.

Their new plan sounds like a more flexible version of Adobe’s Creative Cloud. That seems to have worked fairly well…..


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Nov 10, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> They are going to offer a year long activation too.
> 
> Their new plan sounds like a more flexible version of Adobe’s Creative Cloud. That seems to have worked fairly well…..


A year is fair and that's what i had in mind actually. And at least 2 Pc.


----------



## RogiervG (Nov 11, 2021)

People, please do read the text fully @steinberg.net..
i've read many wrong claims/assumptions in this thread about their new system.
(also read their faq, a lot of additional information is there)


----------



## cleverr1 (Nov 11, 2021)

easyrider said:


> And how many times has the e licencer server been down?
> People buying Cubase and unable to use it for days….


I'd suggest that the eLicenser server issues are more a justification for not moving to monthly activations. The issues these caused were one offs only affected users when buying or upgrading. If the activation servers have the same level of reliability as those of the eLicenser then outages would become a regular occurrence.


----------



## cleverr1 (Nov 11, 2021)

Geocranium said:


> They've stated in their FAQ that they don't ever intend on phasing out perpetual licenses, even if they do eventually introduce subscription-based plans.


My concern is that they eventually position themselves with strategic subscription based products with older perpetual licences becoming legacy.


----------



## Al Maurice (Nov 11, 2021)

Most DAW makers now offer subscriptions but dressed up in different ways.

The update cycle for Steinberg gives at most two updates (usually over a two year cycle) on most of their products, a full release and minor release. After that you can keep using it if you wish, just no more updates. So what's the difference?


----------



## Crossroads (Nov 11, 2021)

Laddy said:


> Hobbyist music production is such a huge market. This may not be representative, but for what its worth, none of the kids I talk with at school (I'm a teacher) are interested in Cubase. They all seem to gravitate towards FL studio.. I think dropping the dongle is necessary to have as much as a theoretical chance to recruit any of these new beat makers



You all silently know EXACTLY why they gravitate towards FL Studio or Live😉

The thing that cannot be named...


----------



## Michael Antrum (Nov 11, 2021)

cleverr1 said:


> I'd suggest that the eLicenser server issues are more a justification for not moving to monthly activations. The issues these caused were one offs only affected users when buying or upgrading. If the activation servers have the same level of reliability as those of the eLicenser then outages would become a regular occurrence.


Remember, your software will auto renew the 30 day period every time it is run and there is an active internet connection. So unless you only run the software very infrequently, for most users the servers would have to be down for weeks at a time to cause any issues.



cleverr1 said:


> My concern is that they eventually position themselves with strategic subscription based products with older perpetual licences becoming legacy.


Well they have issued a statement that there will always be an option for a permanent licence in the statement. You may choose to disbelieve that, and the behaviour of some other companies would lend weight to your concerns.

But any company is capable of deceit, and that being the case, then you are no better off with any other software company as they could just as easily do something similar.

I, for one, will take Steinberg's announcement at face value, but I will cease to support any company that introduces a subscription only policy, or attempts to coerce people into a subscription service much as Izotope has done.

I moved to the Affinity suite after I'd dropped £ 2k on upgrades that Adobe told me I had to buy, or my software would become non-upgradable. Then within a year, despite previously announcing that permanent licences would always be available, they went subscription only and offered me £ 10 a month off for the first year.

I've never given Adobe a penny since and actively encourage others to look at the Affinity suite.


----------



## cleverr1 (Nov 11, 2021)

Geocranium said:


> It is the model that Steinberg is proposing for their new DRM as far as I know, so it's coming. I disagree that the dongle has worked perfectly. I've lost one in a move and had one break on me. Every time I have to move it from one area to the next I have to carefully remember where I put it so I don't lose it. From a design perspective it makes no sense. The beauty of software is that you can leave physical based annoyances like this behind, that's why I want to move on from dongles and embrace all change. This industry has moved so slow on these kinds of innovations; other software has been doing this so much better for _years._
> 
> 
> Can you really not imagine a software based solution that doesn't have this problem? If you were tasked with designing a purely software based DRM to replace the dongle, are you really saying you couldn't come up with anything that surpasses the dongle's convenience and realiability?


The issue is with changing perpetual licences for monthly activations.

Whatever you do if it's system based activation it'll be locked to some hardware that could fail whether it's e.g. a NIC or a hard drive.

The dongle makes it easily transportable across systems.


----------



## rollasoc (Nov 11, 2021)

My concern, is what happens to all the previous versions. Having started with Cubase over 20 years ago, I have a few very old songs, So still have SX3 and Cubase 6 / 7 on my machine for compatibility. 

So given (from another post) the current licensing server will be turned off in June. What happens to the old products, are they dead (in which case I have 7 months to render out the audio of all the old 32bit instruments) or are they migrated to the new system and will continue to work (which I doubt)


----------



## Al Maurice (Nov 11, 2021)

Steinberg have issued a FAQ that answers some of the questions raised above. Perhaps it might be worth checking that out if you haven't done so already:









New Steinberg Licensing FAQ


The introduction of Steinberg Licensing is a big change for our customers, as well as for us at Steinberg. Find here answers to some frequently asked questions.




www.steinberg.net


----------



## ShidoStrife (Nov 11, 2021)

I hate dongles. While I'm fine with using elicenser currently, I'd give up anything to abolish it. The fear of losing or breaking your dongle is just not worth the "conveniences" of a dongle. Quotation mark because it's not convenient at all for me who only uses one laptop.

I know some of you love it and swear by it and I had hoped steinberg kept both method alive. But it doesn't seem to be the case here. You just gotta adapt. Time is changing.


----------



## darkogav (Nov 11, 2021)

Al Maurice said:


> Most DAW makers now offer subscriptions but dressed up in different ways.
> 
> The update cycle for Steinberg gives at most two updates (usually over a two year cycle) on most of their products, a full release and minor release. After that you can keep using it if you wish, just no more updates. So what's the difference?


I agree with this. It seems Cubase 10.5 is EOL. Last patch was March 11, 2021.


----------



## d4vec4rter (Nov 11, 2021)

Only ever had one annoying issue with the dongle that was sorted out by a re-installation of the e-licensing software and I've been using Cubase for well over 10 years now. I think it's the right move though. Modern software licensing technology is pretty effective at combating piracy.

The only feature I really hope they make some dramatic improvement to is with the Expression Maps. Studio One's Sound Variations is wonderfully quick and easy compared to the clunky and complicated workflow in Cubase. Chord detection from audio would be nice too - another feature I'm always switching to Studio One for.


----------



## darkogav (Nov 11, 2021)

d4vec4rter said:


> Only ever had one annoying issue with the dongle that was sorted out by a re-installation of the e-licensing software and I've been using Cubase for well over 10 years now. I think it's the right move though. Modern software licensing technology is pretty effective at combating piracy.
> 
> The only feature I really hope they make some dramatic improvement to is with the Expression Maps. Studio One's Sound Variations is wonderfully quick and easy compared to the clunky and complicated workflow in Cubase. Chord detection from audio would be nice too - another feature I'm always switching to Studio One for.


I personally have no issues with the dongle. Has worked fine always. It basically just sits plugged into the back of the DAW. If i were more mobile and worked on a laptop, it would be a problem.


----------



## shapeshifter00 (Nov 11, 2021)

Unfortunately I upgraded to Cubase 11 less then two weeks ago.....sad


----------



## easyrider (Nov 11, 2021)

I’m on 10.5 will I get 12 if I wait for the summer 40% off sale?


----------



## Michael Antrum (Nov 11, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I’m on 10.5 will I get 12 if I wait for the summer 40% off sale?


Cubase 12 may well be released before the summer sale - so who knows what is in the stars ? Plus the summer sale on upgrades was likely based on the fact the the new version was coming out in a couple of months. Therefore the summer sale on upgrade may well be moved, or not occur at all.....

If you upgrade now to v 11 you will automatically get the upgrade to 12 when released - so I know what I would do.....


----------



## Germain B (Nov 11, 2021)

shapeshifter00 said:


> Unfortunately I upgraded to Cubase 11 less then two weeks ago.....sad


Maybe you can contact them. They have been quite flexible in the past with this kind of situation.


----------



## GNP (Nov 11, 2021)

kitekrazy said:


> People like to bash the beat maker kids. You can create something right away with FL and Live. Those apps are like the others that once below the surface they are as deep as any DAW out there. Free lifetime updates is what make FL Studio popular. Let's not forget Reaper also quite a following.


Adults often like to overprotect these kids too, and they think they're doing them a "favor".

If updates are the sole reason why you use any DAW, then perhaps making music shouldn't be a priority, lol


----------



## Michael Antrum (Nov 11, 2021)

GNP said:


> Adults often like to overprotect these kids too, and they think they're doing them a "favor".
> 
> If updates are the sole reason why you use any DAW, then perhaps making music shouldn't be a priority, lol


Yes, but it is also far too easy to become fixated on the tools, rather that what is produced with them.

I'm pretty sure that here at VI we are all guilty of this to some extent. I've heard some very good music produced in entry level programs like Garageband and Reaper.









That was a joke BTW. I don't have a death wish....


----------



## easyrider (Nov 11, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> Yes, but it is also far too easy to become fixated on the tools, rather that what is produced with them.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that here at VI we are all guilty of this to some extent. I've heard some very good music produced in entry level programs like Garageband and Reaper.
> 
> ...


Reaper is not entry Level….what ever gave you that idea?


----------



## Michael Antrum (Nov 11, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Reaper is not entry Level….what ever gave you that idea?


Read the last sentence......


----------



## easyrider (Nov 11, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> Read the last sentence......


Was gonna say….everyone knows that Cubase is for the kids and noobs…😂


----------



## kitekrazy (Nov 11, 2021)

ShidoStrife said:


> I hate dongles. While I'm fine with using elicenser currently, I'd give up anything to abolish it. The fear of losing or breaking your dongle is just not worth the "conveniences" of a dongle. Quotation mark because it's not convenient at all for me who only uses one laptop.
> 
> I know some of you love it and swear by it and I had hoped steinberg kept both method alive. But it doesn't seem to be the case here. You just gotta adapt. Time is changing.


People fail to realize dongles are also stolen. People who do performances don't step away from their systems. Those who travel with desktops put their dongles inside their systems.


----------



## kitekrazy (Nov 11, 2021)

GNP said:


> Adults often like to overprotect these kids too, and they think they're doing them a "favor".
> 
> *If updates are the sole reason why you use any DAW, then perhaps making music shouldn't be a priority, lol*


LOL! Updates = improvements, new features. Music makiing stops being a priority with faulty software.  (see Reason 12) . Upgrades are also updates. This wouldn't make any sense with all software.


----------



## Mr Greg G (Nov 11, 2021)

Crossroads said:


> The thing that cannot be named...


You mean Trap?


----------



## rollasoc (Nov 11, 2021)

Al Maurice said:


> Steinberg have issued a FAQ that answers some of the questions raised above. Perhaps it might be worth checking that out if you haven't done so already:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, so it looks like, I can just keep using my dongle for SX3 and Cubase 6 /7


----------



## Michael Antrum (Nov 11, 2021)

It's hilarious. For years everyone has been banging on about how they will never buy dongled software, and how dongles are the spawn of the devil.

Then Steinberg announce they are getting rid of the dongle, and everyone piles in on how dongles are far better....

You couldn't make it up.....


----------



## Zedcars (Nov 11, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> …everyone piles in on how dongles are far better....


A vocal minority.


----------



## nikhollis (Nov 11, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> It's hilarious. For years everyone has been banging on about how they will never buy dongled software, and how dongles are the spawn of the devil.
> 
> Then Steinberg announce they are getting rid of the dongle, and everyone piles in on how dongles are far better....
> 
> You couldn't make it up.....


The Steinberg Forum is a battlefield, toys thrown everywhere!!! I got no problem with the dongle......... we will see what happens, I think people are worried that if they don't upgrade to 12, it will all, in time, stop working....... or that it is turning into a subscription...... we will see.


----------



## Polkasound (Nov 11, 2021)

darkogav said:


> I personally have no issues with the dongle. Has worked fine always. It basically just sits plugged into the back of the DAW. If i were more mobile and worked on a laptop, it would be a problem.


Same here. In 2013, I built a DAW for my studio and plugged my eLicenser into a rear USB port where it remained in place for the next seven years. Out of sight, out of mind.

Last year, I built a second DAW to use at home, and that's when the dongle became a real headache. In fact, just yesterday I drove into the next city to visit my mom, and while I was there, was planning to fire up Cubase at my studio to check on a few projects. But I'd forgotten to bring the dongle.

For this reason alone, I welcome the ability to activate Cubase by logging in. It's a lot more convenient than making a 30-minute round trip. But if I were back to just one DAW, I'd prefer the dongle.



rollasoc said:


> My concern, is what happens to all the previous versions.


From what I read, you'll need to hang onto your dongle if you want to run your older versions of Cubase... even if you update to Cubase 12 using the new licensing system. No version of Cubase earlier than 12 will be compatible with the new system. Once the new licensing system begins, it will take Steinberg about two years to migrate all compatible licenses to it. Then the eLicenser system will be deprecated. When that happens, your dongle will still run your older versions of Cubase, but once the dongle or the software that runs it breaks, you're dead in the water.


----------



## YK47 (Nov 11, 2021)

kitekrazy said:


> People like to bash the beat maker kids. You can create something right away with FL and Live. Those apps are like the others that once below the surface they are as deep as any DAW out there. Free lifetime updates is what make FL Studio popular. Let's not forget Reaper also quite a following.


I did not bash kids or daws. I enjoy beat making too and I know how to use both FL and Live. But the fact is that they are the most cracked daws out there especially FL. FL is also cheaper than Cubase and Live. But the top seller is Cubase in Europe. Live is not even on the top 10-15 on DAW products (that includes different versions and updates upgrades) yet you see so many people using Live. Guess where the copies comes from.


----------



## YK47 (Nov 11, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> It's hilarious. For years everyone has been banging on about how they will never buy dongled software, and how dongles are the spawn of the devil.
> 
> Then Steinberg announce they are getting rid of the dongle, and everyone piles in on how dongles are far better....
> 
> You couldn't make it up.....


This is where people do not realise that.... NOT EVERYONE.. but a very tiny minority.. and from that minority the biggest part are the oddballs who use cracked software. 

It is not the first time that a 1-2% ruin it for the rest 98%. People who have no problem with the dongle will not go saying I LOVE THE DONGLE I LOVE THE DONGLE!!! While the 1% minority will cause a stir up every other day.


----------



## Trensharo (Nov 11, 2021)

YK47 said:


> All this was unneeded... just because some little kids hated the dongles as they could not get the product on "questionable" websites for free.
> Then you have another tiny minority that moans about dongles. But most people who use them have absolutely no problem with them. I love them in fact.


The dongle was only half the issue. Every time they had a big release people had their licenses held hostage by the bad servers whenever they tried to activate the upgrade, etc. The entire infrastructure behind the eLicense system was terrible, and needed to be scrapped.


----------



## YK47 (Nov 11, 2021)

pistacchio said:


> Non
> 
> I Hope you realize you’re talking from a 15-year old point of view.
> Today, professionals in any field use professional software they access with a combination of username / password. Preferences are stored in the cloud. You more often than not have your super powerful laptops so it’s not you that go to a machine in a different place, but it’s your machine that goes with you. Your television, your fridge, your toaster are connected to the internet, let alone any computer. If a computer is not connected to the internet you can connect it via your phone.
> ...


15 year olds hate the dongles.

The dongles are great not just for one piece of software but for a huge number of licenses. People also do not only work on their own system but on other studios, rehearsal spaces, doing gigs, recording gigs, doing work even on ships recording whale sounds for months on end without internet connection. 

Why should you need to log on to something when you do not need that now?


And the main issue that you fail to see now but you will in the future is about CONTROL!
Unless you love the you will own nothing and be happy  

You cannot compare photoshop with a DAW. A daw is a real time process and turning off any network adapters makes a system way more stable. Do not bother to tell me to get a better system or give me any other silly suggestions... My system and its slaves are on the top right now. And still it should always be offline. 

I guess you are another mac fetishist that has no idea about windows updates breaking stuff and changing settings etc etc.


----------



## YK47 (Nov 11, 2021)

Trensharo said:


> The dongle was only half the issue. Every time they had a big release people had their licenses held hostage by the bad servers whenever they tried to activate the upgrade, etc. The entire infrastructure behind the eLicense system was terrible, and needed to be scrapped.


This is not true. 
It only happened twice and I am not sure it did not happened on purpose in order to excuse the change to a dongle-less future. There was never a problem before.


----------



## Trensharo (Nov 11, 2021)

YK47 said:


> This is not true.
> It only happened twice and I am not sure it did not happened on purpose in order to excuse the change to a dongle-less future. There was never a problem before.


Happened more than twice. There were many isolated incidents outside of the major release date blackouts they've had. The infrastructure is completely lacking in robustness.

No, they didn't do it on purpose. They wouldn't sabotage their reputation just to make a licensing system change that is... fairly mundane. It's not an excuse, it's just an additional rationale that makes this change make sense.

The rollout is ... laughable. They're basically going to make the users pay for it. But it did need to be done.

The Steinberg dongles are also not built as well as e.g. iLok's USB-A dongles. I just broke one last week. The plastic casing broke, so I had to replace it for obvious reasons. $30 that I'd have never had to spend if this was another DAW.


----------



## YK47 (Nov 11, 2021)

What worries me the most at the moment... even more so than Steinberg's control freakery is what is happening at NI. We are getting the signs from many developers (Spitfire, OT, 8dio and others) who are making their own players. That worries me about the future of NI Kontakt and the business partnership that NI has started with izotope as their subscription is one of the worst options offered at the moment. (only updating the sub software but not the perpetual licenses etc).

A subscription for everything will exclude a lot of people in the future for making music at all on a daw, especially if all these control freaks start working together as a cartel with OS developers etc.

Surely there is a stagnation regarding many things one of them being music software, and they had a few good years the past years but they very well know that people will reach a point where they will.. "you know what I have all I need I do not need to buy anything else" much like many people feel like they have bought so many libraries and they do not buy as much lately.

Once the sub only models will be available, and together with OS developers and DAW developers they will start "breaking" stuff on purpose, or demand certain compatibility.. all that money that people have spent the last 15 years on music software will be a waste. No wonder so many people have started getting back into hardware the last 1.5 year.


So... yes.. Steinberg's choice stinks CONTROL to me. And I do not want to give more CONTROL over me to corporations. It is not just the dongle hassle free life I have been enjoying with the elicenser and ilok.


----------



## YK47 (Nov 11, 2021)

Trensharo said:


> No, they didn't do it on purpose. They wouldn't sabotage their reputation just to make a licensing system change that is... fairly mundane. It's not an excuse, it's just an additional rationale that makes this change make sense.


I am not sure you understand how cheeky german companies are in order to push things and how they try to present you something white as black or the opposite. They have a really bad reputation on corporation circles for such tricks. Not so much for the public who think they are getting better off even though they are not. Countless examples. We could go on about EU policies too on that one. 

IT IS NEVER FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!!! NO MATTER HOW HARD THEY TRY TO PRESENT IT THAT WAY! NEVER TO YOUR ADVANTAGE! They give you a tiny bit of a win to make you feel you get something but they take everything else from you.


----------



## kitekrazy (Nov 11, 2021)

I was anti dongle until there was free software to use iLok. It was sort of a promo. People forgot that Pace had ruined drives. That was around the turn of the century. I never liked eLicenser after using iLok. Pace has come a long way in 20 years.


----------



## YK47 (Nov 11, 2021)

kitekrazy said:


> I was anti dongle until there was free software to use iLok. It was sort of a promo. People forgot that Pace had ruined drives. That was around the turn of the century. I never liked eLicenser after using iLok. Pace has come a long way in 20 years.


I would have been very happy if Steinberg used iLok. They could implement a subscription with it if they wanted too.


----------



## kitekrazy (Nov 11, 2021)

YK47 said:


> What worries me the most at the moment... even more so that Steinberg's control freakery is what is happening at NI. We are getting the signs from many developers (Spitfire, OT, 8dio and others) who are making their own players. That worries me about the future of NI Kontakt and the business partnership that NI has started with izotope whos subscription is one of the worst options offered at the moment. (only updating the sub software but not the perpetual licenses etc).
> 
> A subscription for everything will exclude a lot of people in the future for making music at all on a daw, especially if all these control freaks start working together as a cartel with OS developers etc.
> 
> ...


My extreme backup is to bust out the closet of outdated computer hardware like my socket A Ahtlons and P4 running Windows 2000. I probably spent more time creating music back then.


----------



## Trensharo (Nov 11, 2021)

YK47 said:


> What worries me the most at the moment... even more so that Steinberg's control freakery is what is happening at NI. We are getting the signs from many developers (Spitfire, OT, 8dio and others) who are making their own players. That worries me about the future of NI Kontakt and the business partnership that NI has started with izotope whos subscription is one of the worst options offered at the moment. (only updating the sub software but not the perpetual licenses etc).


Companies moving to their own players is a good thing.

It means that there will be more room for alternatives [to Kontakt] to grow, as less people will see reason to default to it due to the popular 3rd party vendors all being on that platform.

This is great for Instruments like HALion and Falcon, for example.

iZotope does update their perpetual software. I just got updates for a number of iZotope applications - I only own perpetual licenses. If you mean new features... Well, most of the better new features would be held out for paid upgrades - in the lack of a subscription offering - which means that you're basically paying a subscription if you're upgrading year-over-year anyways.

I think it would be interesting to go back to older versions of iZotope software and see what they actually did in the updates to them. From what I remember of the past couple of versions, they aren't really veering off the status quo for the perpetual licenses. The subscriptions do nothing but allow those who subscribe to get - as completed - the features the rest of us would be paying upgrade fees to access via new package versions.


YK47 said:


> A subscription for everything will exclude a lot of people in the future for making music at all on a daw, especially if all these control freaks start working together as a cartel with OS developers etc.


I don't understand this, care to explain?

iZotope makes plug-ins and virtual instruments. None of those are integral to anyone making music on a DAW. There are more than enough alternatives.

Same with Native Instruments. Unless you're basically locked into their native libraries, there are alternatives, increasingly, as vendors move to their own players.

What locked people into Native Instruments was the fact that all the good Sample Libraries were on Kontakt, and Native Instruments made it so that the vendor either paid for Kontakt Player licensing, or you needed full Kontakt to access the Library (beyond Demo Mode).

The price of Kontakt was such that it made little sense for people to buy into Kontakt alone, if they also had holes in their tooling other components of Komplete could fill.


YK47 said:


> Surely there is a stagnation regarding many things one of them being music software, and they had a few good years the past years but they very well know that people will reach a point where they will.. "you know what I have all I need I do not need to buy anything else" much like many people feel like they have bought so many libraries and they do not buy as much lately.


We've already reached that point. Most software applications have issues adding features that attract new users, or upgrades beyond "mind as well stay up-to-date" because the developers have already added the kitchen sink into them.

Most DAWs have found a niche in which they comfortably sit, and the hunger for features that deviate outside that niche isn't as strong as we would think (even if we REALLY want those features).

Cubase is no exception. In fact, it's probably on par with Pro Tools when it comes to that, as it isn't necessarily a trending DAW AFAICT new producers entering the market (though better than something like Samplitude Pro X).


YK47 said:


> Once the sub only models will be available, and together with OS developers and DAW developers they will start "breaking" stuff on purpose, or demand certain compatibility.. all that money that people have spent the last 15 years on music software will be a waste. No wonder so many people have started getting back into hardware the last 1.5 year.


Steinberg is not going Sub. They've clearly stated this will not happen, months ago. They've gone on record with this.

Developers rarely, if ever, break things on purpose. Especially since you can often just roll back an update (or install an earlier version of the DAW) to undo the regression. More often than not, updates to the platforms upon which they operate break things, and that's kind of an issue with all perpetual software, since the "fixes" often come with "Compatible" version upgrades. This has always been an issue, TBH, even since the DAWs of DOS.

And it's hard to rally _against _Subs when PreSonus launches Sphere and the internet goes gaga over it, because the people who subs benefit the most (those who can afford a small monthly fee, but not multi-hundred dollar "at once" purchases) tend to be those who are highlighted - and who tend to dominate the social media where word spreads and influences others coming up/into the industry.

That being said, most companies who have introduced a Sub have actually kept the perpetual purchases in tact. Ideally, users should be paying for what's on offer at that time. As long as they fix bugs (iZotope), you can't really expect anything beyond that. A perpetual software license does not guarantee feature additions in the future, but you're free to choose not to buy based on a lack of them. Free market and all that.


YK47 said:


> So... yes.. Steinberg's choice stinks CONTROL to me. And I do not want to give more CONTROL over me to corporations. It is not just the dongle hassle free life I have been enjoying with the elicenser and ilok.


Steinberg isn't going to go back to paper Serial Numbers because that's just going to see Cubase take over the internet as the most popular DAW in the world...

Due to Piracy.

It will also overwhelm their support channels. They'll become the next WordPerfect.

Those days are over


----------



## Trensharo (Nov 11, 2021)

YK47 said:


> I am not sure you understand how cheeky german companies are in order to push things and how they try to present you something white as black or the opposite. They have a really bad reputation on corporation circles for such tricks. Not so much for the public who think they are getting better off even though they are not. Countless examples. We could go on about EU policies too on that one.
> 
> IT IS NEVER FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!!! NO MATTER HOW HARD THEY TRY TO PRESENT IT THAT WAY! NEVER TO YOUR ADVANTAGE! They give you a tiny bit of a win to make you feel you get something but they take everything else from you.


I know nothing about German Corporate Culture, and I generally try to avoid speaking about things in that way as it seems zenophobic.

Most businesses are in it for the profits, and will do what they need to do to secure that. I don't think it matters what country the company operates in. Human nature is fairly universal 

I do think there are differences in support culture, though. Non-Anglophone EUR companies tend to have more of a hands-off approach to support than American companies. If I had an issue that needed developer attention, I'd bet on the Cakewalk or MOTU developers to be on top of it over Steinberg, MAGIX every single time.

There are exceptions, of course (trends cannot exist without them), and really huge companies simply cannot offer that kind of support as it would cost too much and overwhelm them.


----------



## Nico5 (Nov 11, 2021)

YK47 said:


> I am not sure you understand how cheeky german companies are



only German companies?
all German companies?


----------



## Trensharo (Nov 11, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> only German companies?
> all German companies?


Yea, things get sketchy when one starts singling out specific nationalities, etc.


----------



## mixtur (Nov 11, 2021)

Trensharo said:


> Companies moving to their own players is a good thing.
> 
> It means that there will be more room for alternatives [to Kontakt] to grow, as less people will see reason to default to it due to the popular 3rd party vendors all being on that platform.
> 
> ...


What they said is that they might go sub (“other options”) but that they would not stop selling perpetual licenses.


----------



## Trensharo (Nov 11, 2021)

mixtur said:


> What they said is that they might go sub (“other options”) but that they would not stop selling perpetual licenses.


Any company would write this language into an announcement, in the internet age of "Look what you said 8 years ago!"

That's typical CYOA PR/Marketing Speech, but even if they rolled out a subscription tomorrow, I am not sure what the issue would be unless they axed Cubase Pro and only offered Artist, the way Reason axed Reason Suite and only offers Standard as a perpetual purchase.

It would be no different from what Avid does, currently.

What was written, back then:


> Please be reassured that whatever options for buying Steinberg software products may be offered in future, we have no plans to withdraw the option to buy and use our existing software products under a perpetual license, just as we always have.


Given Steinberg practically never rolls out mid-release feature updates, I'm not sure how this can matter to anyone who uses their products. They only ever roll out bug fixes. New features are only for the next version.


----------



## easyrider (Nov 11, 2021)

The Steinberg forum is something else!


----------



## Trensharo (Nov 11, 2021)

easyrider said:


> The Steinberg forum is something else!


I like that the forums there are relatively open, and Steinberg employees participate. The Dorico team really has it together there.

The community for Steinberg products are less generically defensive about the products. There seem to be a lot of points of view and Steinberg (or the community, generally speaking) don't dissuade anyone from voicing any of them.

That makes it a generally fun place for discussion.

Other product forums (e.g. REAPER, Cakewalk, Samplitude, etc.) are less open.

I find the older, more venerable products tend to have more open communities than the "newer" or less popular products.

It could also be a byproduct of the niches these DAWs have fallen into (Cubase/Nuendo, Pro Tools, etc.). This brings in a different type of user base compared to something like REAPER or FL Studio - generally speaking.


----------



## Zedcars (Nov 11, 2021)

YK47 said:


> I am not sure you understand how cheeky german companies are in order to push things and how they try to present you something white as black or the opposite. They have a really bad reputation on corporation circles for such tricks. Not so much for the public who think they are getting better off even though they are not. Countless examples. We could go on about EU policies too on that one.
> 
> IT IS NEVER FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!!! NO MATTER HOW HARD THEY TRY TO PRESENT IT THAT WAY! NEVER TO YOUR ADVANTAGE! They give you a tiny bit of a win to make you feel you get something but they take everything else from you.


I have visited their offices a few years ago. They are the nicest, friendliest, down to earth bunch of people you could ever meet. They showed me round the different teams, showed me round Hamburg and took me out for dinner. It was really nice.

The way you talk about them no way fits this company.


----------



## Geocranium (Nov 12, 2021)

YK47 said:


> For example I have two hdd on the same machine running cubase on both of them. With the dongle it is not a problem. I have my main rig for production that is offline, and another hard drive that I use for every day internte and entertainment.





> My system and its slaves are on the top right now. And still it should always be offline.


All your comments honestly have had me completely cracking up in laughter. Your setup is one of the most depraved things I've ever heard of, it's truly mindbending. I haven't been this entertained by a thread here for a long time. 

And as an aside, I'm also a Windows user. However, I've been using my system in a completely normal way and have never had any issues. I hope one day you can learn to interface with Windows and Cubase like most other users do, it's a very smooth and enjoyable experience. And it's about to get even better sans dongles.


----------



## AudioLoco (Nov 12, 2021)

I really don't like the fact I have to rely on the internet to be able... to be *authorized* to work.

I pay, I use whenever I want. I shouldn't need to rely on anything. That is how it should be.
Also because there it is my food bringer you are talking about. The DAW is the main thing that needs to work *always* regardless of problems with servers, bad connection and other unexpected variables. 

I would have prefered a move to iLok, where so many other software is on, and which is not going away any time soon. (So hey, guess what, I'm still carrying a little dongle with me, Steinberg could have just added their own little license there....)

I believe it is 100% a move to lure young laptop wielding new blood, that would never consider relying on a piece of plastic as it is not downloadable. I understand that. 
But that kind of customers are still going to want something simple and immediate like FL or Live and probably wouldn't be interested in the huge feature monster that is Cubase.

It would be awesome if they also gave us a possibility of using an iLok too, that would make both camps happy !


----------



## easyrider (Nov 12, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> I really don't like the fact I have to rely on the internet to be able... to be *authorized* to work.
> 
> I pay, I use whenever I want. I shouldn't need to rely on anything. That is how it should be.
> Also because there it is my food bringer you are talking about. The DAW is the main thing that needs to work *always* regardless of problems with servers, bad connection and other unexpected variables.
> ...


You only need to connect once in 365 days.


----------



## Consona (Nov 12, 2021)

Your DAW


A place to discuss everything related to Digital Audio Workstations! (Cubase, Logic, VEP, etc.)




vi-control.net


----------



## AudioLoco (Nov 12, 2021)

easyrider said:


> You only need to connect once in 365 days.


Yes I have read that. It is the alternative to connecting every 30 days, which is their preferred way. Who knows what problems may arise from having to do that. 
They could let us create a file on any USB key ourselves that we use as dongle if we want, that would be a smart move (as an alternative at least).


----------



## RogiervG (Nov 12, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> I pay, I use whenever I want. I shouldn't need to rely on anything. That is how it should be.


Well... not really.... Even with dongles you rely on something.. the dongle and the software that reads the dongle. (and your computer too).
So you are always relying on something, being it internet connectivity, software or hardware.


----------



## darkogav (Nov 12, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> to lure young laptop wielding new blood, that would never consider relying on a piece of plastic as it is not downloadable. I understand that.


I suspect that might be the case. But to be honest, people have been complaining about that dongle for ages. Its nice of Steinberg to finally address it. I have no issues either way. But it would totally suck if they go the sunscription route, as if the trend these days. I like the idea of buying something and just keep using it as long as I need and holding off upgrading until there is a good enough reason to do it.



> It would be awesome if they also gave us a possibility of using an iLok too, that would make both camps happy !


Many are against iLok too but I have so many iLok products that adding Cubase to it would make sense. I have no idea what is involved for a company to agree to use iLok for their products. Might be very convoluted.


----------



## darkogav (Nov 12, 2021)

easyrider said:


> You only need to connect once in 365 days.


I will believe it when I see it. Every piece of phone home software I use has very an iffy implemented phone home.


----------



## AudioLoco (Nov 12, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> Well... not really.... Even with dongles you rely on something.. the dongle and the software that reads the dongle. (and your computer too).
> So you are always relying on something, being it internet connectivity, software or hardware.


I don't understand this argument.
Even my computer relies on its own components like ventilation, and power supply, and the monitor, and mouse! The electricity grid too I have to rely on...

Also I really like the fact that my main studio computer can be off line most of the time (except when I install new software and updates) it gives me piece of mind.

Can I please choose to be offline Mr. Steinberg as long as I want to? (I understand the year long option will do just fine for me, if everything works that is - but still...)
Your product is a tool for me to make a living it is not some social networking thingy or a face swap app or something like that.


----------



## easyrider (Nov 12, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> I don't understand this argument.
> Even my computer relies on its own components like ventilation, and power supply, and the monitor, and mouse! The electricity grid too I have to rely on...
> 
> Also I really like the fact that my main studio computer can be off line most of the time (except when I install new software and updates) it gives me piece of mind.
> ...


I wanted to try Download and try the Big Bang orchestra from VSL….

I couldn’t as the E-licencer server was down for 3 days in Feb this year then again in March.





__





LMGTFY - Let Me Google That For You


For all those people who find it more convenient to bother you with their question rather than to Google it for themselves.




bfy.tw





The e-licencer is total junk…


----------



## Covent Garden (Nov 12, 2021)

YK47 said:


> I am not sure you understand how cheeky german companies are in order to push things and how they try to present you something white as black or the opposite. They have a really bad reputation on corporation circles for such tricks. Not so much for the public who think they are getting better off even though they are not. Countless examples. We could go on about EU policies too on that one.
> 
> IT IS NEVER FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!!! NO MATTER HOW HARD THEY TRY TO PRESENT IT THAT WAY! NEVER TO YOUR ADVANTAGE! They give you a tiny bit of a win to make you feel you get something but they take everything else from you.


Well, because I am an owner of a GERMAN Advertising Agency you should explain what you mean, honey ....

Which other companies do you mean? And why do you think, "how cheeky" they are? In reality, it is just you who wants to present something white as black and opposite, isn't it? And last but not least please give us some of those "countless examples" and explain WHY ...

And it's not because I am german, it is because of talking about something without knowing anything about it - that's just kidding, isn't it? It's just like the Corona debate - please beware of FACTS, FACTS and FACTS. No flame debate. And yes we can talk about Steinberg's strategy but please without racism ("... how cheeky GERMAN companies are). And as a german I do know our history very well and any kind of racism leads to a disaster. Or do you live in germany, so that you can really judge the behavior of german companies? I don't think so, so please be aware of those stupid comments. And what about cheeky companies like Apple or Google who cheeky try to determine rules? Because of they are U.S. companies? I don't think so. So PLEASE provide FACTS and don't talk like a populist. And please believe me, my comments would be the same if you have dissed any other nationality. This is a NO GO.

Just a very cheeky comment of a f**ing german guy ... or what do you think?


----------



## IFM (Nov 12, 2021)

The way I feel about it is this is a form of “free“ subscription. I understand they have gone on record saying they will not go to that model, but essentially if you don’t phone home once a month/year your software will stop working. Thats the same thing as a subscription with the only difference being you just have to handshake with their server vs paying a monthly fee on top of it. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## RogiervG (Nov 12, 2021)

guys and girls... please, debating has no function anymore. 
it's going to happen no matter what. And i read (in between the lines) a lot of fear for change and new things and doubt how it will work in practise. I say, no need for that. once you have it under your fingers for a while (aka: in actual use), you won't know any better (brain adjusts to changes quickly).


----------



## Geocranium (Nov 12, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> I don't understand this argument.
> Even my computer relies on its own components like ventilation, and power supply, and the monitor, and mouse! The electricity grid too I have to rely on...
> 
> Also I really like the fact that my main studio computer can be off line most of the time (except when I install new software and updates) it gives me piece of mind.
> ...


The point is that you're always going to be relying on _something _to store your licenses. With a dongle you're relying on the USB stick functioning. With software licensing you're relying on having an internet connection.

Software is superior because a computer connecting to the internet once every month/year/whatever is 1000 times more reliable than a USB stick. A USB stick can break, get lost, get stolen, and it takes up a hardware slot on your machine. An internet connection is just always there and can't break or get stolen. We live in the internet age, everything is connected to the internet. Refusing to connect your machines to the internet is just bizarre luddism IMO.


----------



## AudioLoco (Nov 12, 2021)

Geocranium said:


> Refusing to connect your machines to the internet is just bizarre luddism IMO.



I can't "refuse to connect to the internet" all the time because I need to download software, updates, samples.
But I do prefer to generally stay off line with my work computer, yes. 
Nothing bizarre about that, so many reasons for doing so....


----------



## Zedcars (Nov 12, 2021)

Geocranium said:


> Software is superior because a computer connecting to the internet once every month/year/whatever is 1000 times more reliable than a USB stick. A USB stick can break, get lost, get stolen, and it takes up a hardware slot on your machine. An internet connection is just always there and can't break or get stolen. We live in the internet age, everything is connected to the internet.


Hmmm, I’m in the “don’t care which method” camp. But this last point of yours just doesn’t hold up. Routers can break, the WiFi or Ethernet port of the computer can break. The server can go down. Plenty of reasons why an internet connection can be more flaky/unreliable than a USB stick in _some_ instances. The reverse may be true in other situations.

Also, what about people in remote areas? It’s not that cut and dried I’m afraid.

However, personally I’m not too bothered either way as it’s only a hobby for me. If I was earning money it may be a different story.


----------



## Nico5 (Nov 12, 2021)

Geocranium said:


> Refusing to connect your machines to the internet is just bizarre luddism IMO.


What, if it’s not refusal, but inability? e.g. what if your region or country gets cut off for months or years because of an accident, natural disaster or political ”firewall” or export restriction or outright war-like sabotage?


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Nov 12, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> What, if it’s not refusal, but inability? e.g. what if your region or country gets cut off for months or years because of an accident, natural disaster or political ”firewall” or export restriction or outright war-like sabotage?


And what if you get canceled...


----------



## mxbf (Nov 12, 2021)

Vlzmusic said:


> You have a point, but I know I like Ilok better, and was hoping everyone would jump ship, like VSL. Having two dongles was a bit too much, don't you think.


this i agree with. i just bought a usb port for my ilok/elicense dongles and i had completely forgotten that i had to buy two of these stupid things.

just use ilok you idiots.


----------



## cleverr1 (Nov 13, 2021)

Going slightly O.T. here, I spent today "reactivating" my laptop that I haven't used properly as a DAW in over a year due to covid. After hours of updates and then plugging in the USB SSDs that contain my main libraries (shared with the main DAW), the experiences gave very different results depending on the copy protections. (I'm assuming that the drives acquired different letters to those they had previously). So with EastWest (iLok), zero issue - just relocate the content and you're immediately back up and running. Spitfire Audio app told me I've used up all my resets so BBCSO is offline on the laptop until they do a reset of the resets limit for me - re the ticket I had to raise. Not an issue in context because they did this quickly before when I was first learning how to setup a USB SDD content drive for multiple systems, but had this been needed tomorrow, it'd be very different. However the empirical experience here today means I get a much warmer feeling from the major libraries that use dongles.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Nov 13, 2021)

cleverr1 said:


> Going slightly O.T. here, I spent today "reactivating" my laptop that I haven't used properly as a DAW in over a year due to covid. After hours of updates and then plugging in the USB SSDs that contain my main libraries (shared with the main DAW), the experiences gave very different results depending on the copy protections. (I'm assuming that the drives acquired different letters to those they had previously). So with EastWest (iLok), zero issue - just relocate the content and you're immediately back up and running. Spitfire Audio app told me I've used up all my resets so BBCSO is offline on the laptop until they do a reset of the resets limit for me - re the ticket I had to raise. Not an issue in context because they did this quickly before when I was first learning how to setup a USB SDD content drive for multiple systems, but had this been needed tomorrow, it'd be very different. However the empirical experience here today means I get a much warmer feeling from the major libraries that use dongles.


That's until you lose it or brake it. Unfortunately there are no perfect solutions. Don't get me wrong i like dongles for this reason as well but things can get messy if an accident happened. That one of the reasons i believe devellopers should alwasy offer at least 2 license(dongle). Benefits are if one brake you can use the other one. You can also have one dongle in the studio and one at home if you use 2 Pc. You also limite the risk a braking it or losing it during travel. That's what bugged me about Steinberg's dongle.


----------



## cleverr1 (Nov 14, 2021)

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> That's until you lose it or brake it. Unfortunately there are no perfect solutions. Don't get me wrong i like dongles for this reason as well but things can get messy if an accident happened. That one of the reasons i believe devellopers should alwasy offer at least 2 license(dongle). Benefits are if one brake you can use the other one. You can also have one dongle in the studio and one at home if you use 2 Pc. You also limite the risk a braking it or losing it during travel. That's what bugged me about Steinberg's dongle.


There's always zero downtime but whilst the process will get you working again it looks a bit clunky before you get a new perpetual activation code. I mitigate some the risks of losing or breaking dongles by using them on short USB extension cables and having a routine where they're kept in a go-pro case whilst travelling. I guess if you wanted more physical protection you could build them into a small project box along with a USB hub. Of course that won't prevent electronic failures. I also installed a large amount of content using IK Product Manager and Native Access which both work brilliantly and have perpetual licences.

I'm no advocate of dongles but I am of perpetual licencing over anything that has to regularly "phone home".


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Nov 14, 2021)

cleverr1 said:


> There's always zero downtime but whilst the process will get you working again it looks a bit clunky before you get a new perpetual activation code. I mitigate some the risks of losing or breaking dongles by using them on short USB extension cables and having a routine where they're kept in a go-pro case whilst travelling. I guess if you wanted more physical protection you could build them into a small project box along with a USB hub. Of course that won't prevent electronic failures. I also installed a large amount of content using IK Product Manager and Native Access which both work brilliantly and have perpetual licences.
> 
> I'm no advocate of dongles but I am of perpetual licencing over anything that has to regularly "phone home".


Yea the zero downtime looks clunky indeed. I've sued the short USB extension trick for years. Very effective. I just refused to move my dongle from 1 Pc to an other so i moved to Studio One that doesn't have this restriction. Glade Steinberg finally listened. I'm probably gonna get C11 with the grace period plus Fender bought Presonus so... I'm OK with 1 dongle. 2 is a wast of usb port but I'll leave with that i guess.


----------

