# Reaktor/MAX MSP - Building a modern Vector Synth



## Fahl (Aug 4, 2022)

Putting this out here as I've got this idea stuck in my head for the past few days. 

Been playing a lot with the Arturia Prophet VS and have really come to enjoy the Vector approach to blending waveforms, truly a cleaver idea to overcome certain limitations at the time but it's also got me thinking - why not extend the idea of vector mixing to a much more modern instrument?

Imagine something like the Waldorf Quantum/Iridium - 4 Oscillators freely assignable to Granular, Wavetable, Resonator, FM and or VA which is then mixed like the waveforms on the VS - Filter(s) - VCA - FX.

Even better if coupled with a MPE Controller where for example Y could control one of the Vectors axis and say Z could control the other.

I have nowhere near the knowledge needed to create this but if anyone else finds this intriguing perhaps this could be jointly pursued across the forum? Reaktor or MAX seems like the obvious starting points as there are numerous decent building blocks already available but again, there will need to be a lot of work to pull this together if it ever comes to fruition.

Am I crazy or would this be a good idea?


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## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

It is an awesome idea. Although I feel much of the “vector synthesis” concept is already plenty available in synths such as Falcon and Equator, that offer multiple oscillators to crossfade in and out, with XY pads or -even better- MPE. Maybe also check out Voltage Modular, who have an excellent set of modules for this purpose as well.

UVI’s Drone FX would be one example. And in Equator one could argue that many patches are in effect mere implementations of vector synthesis, since they revolve around various parts being crossfades in and out. This XY crossfading has become so ubiquitous, we don’t really call it vector synthesis anymore I guess?

That said, I would love for someone to build a brand new REAKTOR über version. Although I can’t imagine it hasn’t already been done in the past?


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## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

Oh, and what about CUBE? I do not really grasp this one… but “three dimensional” sounds like “XYZ” vectors to me?


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## Fahl (Aug 4, 2022)

You're probably right that it already exists in some form or another just not as explicitly stated and hence my ignorance :D

Really close to pulling the trigger on an Iridium due to the Live Granular engine and over all fantastic sound quality which after trying one in a store recently, I can't say that anything I've heard really compares so while the concept may be available, it might not be available at that level of quality. 

I actually thought about "3D" vectors and you could kind of create a "3D" Diamond (as Dave Smith called it on the VS) on the Iridium but it is a bit of a faff.

One OSC in Kernel. 4 Operators as wavetable. Use the built in envelopes in the Kernel engine or map their levels to the macros and use LFO's to crossfade between them. That's the 2D Diamond.

To create the "top and bottom peaks", think of it as 2 prisms joined at the bottom in terms of shape, you use the other 2 OSCs in which ever engine you desire and crossfade between them using an LFO, Envelope, Aftertouch etc.

You can create some awesome sounds with this but of course the 2D Vector is limited to what the Kernel mode can provide so no Granular and no Resonator and it's not nearly as intuitive as doing it on a dedicated piece of hardware/software. Perhaps one could create a template patch for this to make it easier and more accessible.


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## tressie5 (Aug 4, 2022)

I think it's a good idea. The closest I've seen are: 
OSS Enterprise - 4 oscillators exploring vector, additive, subtractive and wavetable synthesis.
Wiggle - 4 oscillators exploring waveshaping, phase distortion, FM and morphing.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

tressie5 said:


> OSS Enterprise - 4 oscillators exploring vector, additive, subtractive and wavetable synthesis.


Cool one. Available for free these days.


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## Pier (Aug 4, 2022)

Maybe I'm missing something but can't you accomplish that with basically any synth that offers some kind of modulation?

Like you could inversely change the volume of 2 oscillators using the modhweel in practically any synth.

In Zebra there are the XY pads which could allow you to "morph" between 4 oscillators or generators.

In Falcon or MSoundFactory you can have XY modulation on the custom GUI and modulate anything you want. Actually I think MSF allows you to morph between full presets of the A B C D slots.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

Pier said:


> Maybe I'm missing something but can't you accomplish that with basically any synth that offers some kind of modulation?


Yeah, pretty much


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## tressie5 (Aug 4, 2022)

MSF allows you to morph between completely different sound sources, and not just the parameters of oscillators, in a sequential or random pattern. There isn't a vector XY pad like you'd find in Vecto, Wavestate Native, or a couple of Kontakt instruments, so you can't exactly plot A->C->B->D or B->D->A->C, and so on, but for most intents and purposes, it works. It's convoluted per Melda's paradigm, but it works. Here's a screenshot for RatioMulti1 and a YT tutorial.


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## Nico5 (Aug 4, 2022)

tressie5 said:


> It's convoluted per Melda's paradigm, but it works.


"... with great power comes great convolution!"


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## Fahl (Aug 5, 2022)

Pier said:


> Maybe I'm missing something but can't you accomplish that with basically any synth that offers some kind of modulation?
> 
> Like you could inversely change the volume of 2 oscillators using the modhweel in practically any synth.
> 
> ...


Yes and no. 

Technically yes you can. But in practice it can be very much of a pain to set up the modulations so that the levels stay the same and it's usually not even close to as intuitive and/or it's not something that can be done per voice. Theoretically, you could set this up in any DAW with multiple plugins and midi CC mappings but it won't be per voice and it won't be nearly as intuitive as grabbing 4 waves on the VS and get started which I think is a huge part of it. Kind of like how you can patch anything with a modular system but somethings are just so much of a pain to do that you naturally won't go that route unless it's very intentional. 

Equator does look like the closest to this but for some reason Roli's website does not even load on my Mac so can't try that out at the moment.

Thanks for the suggestions though! Even if it's not something that ever comes into fruition, it's always interesting to discuss as it may open up for new ideas!


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## Pier (Aug 5, 2022)

Fahl said:


> But in practice it can be very much of a pain to set up the modulations so that the levels stay the same and it's usually not even close to as intuitive and/or it's not something that can be done per voice.


In Zebra you can set up accurate cross fading using custom mod curves in the mod mapper module. You can control the position of the "playhead" in that curve using the modwheel. And these are indeed per voice.






In Phase Plant there's a new modulation mapper which would also allow to create custom curves from the modhweel (or any modulator really).

I don't know how I'd do the custom curves in MSF since I've just started using it, but knowing how deep the Melda stuff goes I'm sure there must be a way 

Most modulations in synths are actually per voice (LFOs, Envs, etc). To get different "modhweel values" in every voice you can use sidechain modulation (one modulation controlling a second modulation) which is somewhat common. From the top of my head Zebra, MSF, Hive, Falcon, Phase Plant, Dune, and Omnisphere have it. I'm sure there are many more.

Edit:

BTW in Zebra and probably all wavetable synths, you can morph wavetables with a single parameter.


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## tressie5 (Aug 5, 2022)

Here's a Max For Live synth that allows you to morph between four different sound sources - oscillators, wavetables, FM and one shots. Too bad you need Ableton to use it. Maybe if it gets popular enough, like Reason's Europa, they'll create a version people can use outside Max For Live.












Hypermorph


Mix or mutate between four independent sound sources using a flexible morph matrix and a Push-ready modulation sequencer – Hypermorph offers a playful way to create rapidly changing or evolving sounds.




www.ableton.com


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## NuNativs (Aug 5, 2022)

Building synths from the ground up is a young mans game. I wasted many years thinking I could surpass what is available by developers with far more resources than one single dude. The amount of work if such a project is huge by order of magnitude. I'm not trying to burst your dream as I don't know you, but best of luck!


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## Fahl (Aug 6, 2022)

NuNative - Haha I hear you so no dreams busted and no offence taken :D I will probably never get around to doing this for real but it obviously spawned some great and intriguing suggestions!

As I get older, I'm more and more intrigued by complete instruments which are set up for a certain workflow and given my recent love for synths like Pigments and the Iridium/Quantum coupled with a quote I read from one of the creators of the VS which read along the lines that "it could start the sound with a hard pluck and then gradually decay into a soft clarinet" just got me thinking that this would be the natural evolution of this concept. Which obviously a lot of people thought about before me in some form or another which is no surprise as I'm no instrument designer.

I'll definitely give a couple of the options suggested here and again, if nothing else, this may have given me and some others here a few cool sound design ideas so if that's all that ever comes out of this, I think that's worthwhile as well! 

Cheers everyone for the enthusiastic responses!


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## Lindon (Aug 6, 2022)

tooting our own horn here:

HoriZEN uses an XY pad to cross-fade 4 sample based voices in its 7 voice architecture...

- next version will be even more flexible...






LOOK TO THE HORIZEN | TheSynthFactory


Look to the Horizen, our flagship new Synth/Rompler engine, that offers power & flexibility... Meet your new Synth




thesynthfactory.com


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## Fahl (Aug 6, 2022)

Please tote away! Looks very interesting!


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## Joe_D (Aug 6, 2022)

If you want to explore making your own conception of a vector synth, you could buy a Cherry Audio Voltage Modular starter bundle (I’d start with Core + Electro) and their Vector bundle:

https://store.cherryaudio.com/bundles/voltage-modular-core-electro-drums

https://store.cherryaudio.com/bundles/vector-bundle

If you know how to patch a modular synth, it would be pretty easy to configure most vector and control approaches that you could think of. And the bundle includes a polyphonic version of the main vector module, so you could patch up polyphonic synths once you have a basic architecture roughed out. 

Their stuff usually goes on sale around early fall iirc.


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## Joe_D (Aug 6, 2022)




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## tressie5 (Aug 6, 2022)

I guess because of the nature of Bitwig's routing architecture, you can route four completely different synths through their XY Pad and crossfade between them to your heart's content. It would be nice if plugin hosts like Bidule or Metaplugin had a programmable XY module to achieve this instead of having to buy a whole new DAW just for that.


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## tressie5 (Aug 8, 2022)

I demo'd the XY Pad in Bitwig to crossfade between four different instruments which I automated with two LFO's. Tricky setup but I got it to work. However, since vector synthesis is really just crossfading between four instruments, that could easily be done in Cubase or any with automation lanes, and it's a walk in the park compared to the convolutions you go through with Bitwig.


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## Fahl (Aug 11, 2022)

You can certainly set this up both in any daw and in hardware like the Planar in Eurorack, my interest lies more in having the ability pre voice like on the Vs but thank you all for your suggestions! Can't give Equator a try as Roli's website still won't load here for unknown reasons. Very weird.


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## tressie5 (Aug 15, 2022)

I was demo'ing Hyperion today. It has multiple synthesis (digital and analog oscillators, FM, wave sequencing, sample and soundfont player, etc) and a vector pad for crossfading between audio. That's the good news. The bad news is, like Bitwig, you use two LFO's to move that fakafka vector, but trying to move exactly how you want (perfect circle, for instance) is like pulling teeth. Still, its randomness could be a plus as this video illustrates.


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