# Library music and its impact on the industry



## syashdown (Jan 16, 2014)

Hi guys,

I wanted to hear people's thoughts on the impact of the huge volumes of library music that are entering the market nowadays.

As a composer that works only on commissions for bespoke music for film/tv my natural instinct is that it is a threat to the sort of work I do. Not only can producers can cut a bit off of the budget by using well produced library music (and thus making less jobs available to bespoke film score composers), they also see our work more and more as a commodity than an artform. As someone who entered the industry wanting to create art through a creative process of exploring and developing the unique sound of a film or series, this concerns me slightly. 

However, I'm not completely entrenched in my more reactive thoughts to the situation as I have not explored this idea thoroughly. I would be interested to hear others views on the matter.

Look forward to hearing your responses...


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## AC986 (Jan 16, 2014)

Of course it's a threat. Everything that spells change in anything that happens in the world is a threat. Hell, David Cameron is a fucking threat.

Would be more than concerned slightly. I would very concerned.

The artist Albrecht Durer could paint a hare. He was an artist. I can paint a hare and believe me when I tell you, I am NO artist.

Just because you write music for TV or films on a bespoke basis does not mean you are an artist. Of course, I am prepared to accept you are. I am prepared to also accept that you think you are and I believe that you are because you do.

People like Goldsmith, Herrmann and Williams are exceptional but based on todays model, are complete dinosaurs. These guys are artists. Who says todays producers want artists? They didn't really want artists 60 years ago, never mind today. They mostly want music with a beat. I watched a film the other night on BBC2 HD called Let Me In. I liked it but the music just slowed it down too much. It was well played and produced music, when it was music, but most of the time it was sound design. Everything today is sound design.


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## syashdown (Jan 16, 2014)

Thanks for the response Adrian. Just to clarify, I wouldn't call my self an artist as in a 'master of the art' ie. Goldsmith, Herrmann, Williams et al. I think an artist is a term for someone else to call me, if they think its warranted.

However, I am engaged in my work as a collaborative artistic endeavour with filmmakers, not just a gun for hire, music producing machine (although that is sometimes a role I serve). I came into the industry to work with fellow artists and directors in creating art, be it film, documentary, drama series, whatever really, as long it is imbued with some sort of artistic integrity.


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## AC986 (Jan 16, 2014)

The only difference between you and me is you go out and find films and tv to score on a pro active basis or vis versa in that they come to you. I don't and I don't necessarily feel in anyway I am pursuing an artistic or creative endeavour either. Anything I do that goes to TV is passive on my part. I hardly ever hear any of it.


Anyone who wants to compare the way the music business works or is going in TV/films; I think that makes for a good discussion. Anyone who wants to make out that they are somehow in an elite band of musicians then good luck with that because thats when the fun will begin.


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## Madrigal (Jan 16, 2014)

Our field of work is not the only one that's changing. This has been discussed over and over again, there is a decline in wages for the professionals of all art fields. Democratization of art has been the best and worst thing to happen to artists. 

No one can fight this change.We have to embrace it. 

We discuss and learn on this forum, we use amazing VIs, we can have clients everywhere around the world, etc. All positive aspects of change and technology. 

Now, it's our job as composers to provide value beyond library music. People will always be willing to pay for value and there will always be opportunities for custom work. 

It's a hard world out there, but it always has been, just different.


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## AC986 (Jan 16, 2014)

Madrigal @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> People will always be willing to pay for value and there will always be opportunities for custom work.



I'm not sure about that. SOME people will maybe in the future. There will always be custom work. But it's a numbers game and diminishing custom work with greater amounts of 'composers'.

You know what the biggest reason is that this is happening?


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## syashdown (Jan 16, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Anyone who wants to make out that they are somehow in an elite band of musicians then good luck with that because thats when the fun will begin.



Is that what you are suggesting I'm doing? If so, I think you are misreading me. I'm interested in peoples thoughts on what the impact is of library music is in the industry, I'm not looking for a definitive answer on the subject nor am I complaining or insinuating I am in an "elite band of musicians". I'm simply voicing my concerns of how it might effect someone who is engaged in the industry for the reasons that I am, as part of the discussion. 

If I am the one misreading you, apologies in advance.


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## syashdown (Jan 16, 2014)

Madrigal @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Our field of work is not the only one that's changing. This has been discussed over and over again, there is a decline in wages for the professionals of all art fields. Democratization of art has been the best and worst thing to happen to artists.
> 
> No one can fight this change.We have to embrace it.
> 
> ...



Yes, I agree with all of this. My thoughts, in terms of how to approach the situation, is that I just have to bring more and more to what I do, like you say, providing value beyond music simply as a commodity.


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## AC986 (Jan 16, 2014)

syashdown @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Is that what you are suggesting I'm doing? If so, I think you are misreading me. I'm interested in peoples thoughts on what the impact is of library music is in the industry, I'm not looking for a definitive answer on the subject nor am I complaining or insinuating I am in an "elite band of musicians". I'm simply voicing my concerns of how it might effect someone who is engaged in the industry for the reasons that I am as part of the discussion.
> 
> If I am the one misreading you, apologies in advance.



No. On another thread here there were insinuations that library music is somehow cheap and cheapens music. Obviously the guy is an artist and all library contributors are somehow dwellers of a musical leprosy colony. :lol:


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## Jdiggity1 (Jan 16, 2014)

Yes I do believe it is taking work away from independent composers, much more so than at the top end of productions though.
For instance, Tropfest Sydney (The world's largest short film festival) used to be a great way for composers to get small gigs, paid or not paid. But last year, all Tropfest entrants were *encouraged* to use library music, and were given discounts as an incentive.
So, what do I do about it??
I, for one, am now writing library music.


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## syashdown (Jan 16, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> syashdown @ Thu Jan 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Is that what you are suggesting I'm doing? If so, I think you are misreading me. I'm interested in peoples thoughts on what the impact is of library music is in the industry, I'm not looking for a definitive answer on the subject nor am I complaining or insinuating I am in an "elite band of musicians". I'm simply voicing my concerns of how it might effect someone who is engaged in the industry for the reasons that I am as part of the discussion.
> ...



Ah, ok. No my thoughts are that library music is actually getting rather good, hence the increase in usable material. I don't think it can match the value of a bespoke score that is written to picture with a thematic and instrumental connection to the context of the story. But many projects will now sacrifice that value for the reduction in costs as they have access to good sounding library tracks. Even if the director doesn't want to sacrifice it, normally the people in charge of the budget don't mind losing some of the subtleties of filmmaking to save a few pennies.


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## Stiltzkin (Jan 16, 2014)

God I do hate reading these threads, they are highly depressing haha...

Perhaps I'm a fool clinging on to an ideal, but I'll do everything I can not to go down the route of library music.

I think there are a lot of composers who are hired for their style - something similar to something hanz and many other composers have said; when you want something "like hanz zimmer" you don't go and hire someone else, you hire hanz zimmer - or you will ultimately be dissapointed.

Sure if you're just writing generic music that is intended to sound like your every day piece, then fair enough, but if you're writing to full feature films with motifs that have to develop to create emotional attachments then that really isn't something library music can do unless you started writing library music in packs to develop over the course of a film... But to do that would require knowledge of the film and how it developers which means you'd be hiring a composer anyway, so personally I'll stick to my guns and stay away from library music.

I don't think it's ruining anything though, I think it's just giving opportunities for filmmakers to create a more finished piece of work than previously - similar to samples vs the real deal, library music will always be "just good enough" rather than something specifically composed for the project.


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## passenger57 (Jan 16, 2014)

I guess I've been lucky... I have had constant scoring work for over 7 years, worked with several directors / producers and every one of them wanted an original score for their movie or tv show.


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## Stephen Rees (Jan 16, 2014)

Hi Simon,

I really would like to think that there is room in the world for both bespoke music and library music.

I am a full time composer, and pretty much 100% of my income is from library music.

For me, library music has been far more rewarding from an 'artistic' standpoint than bespoke writing. With library music, my briefs are very broad as are deadlines (mostly). I might just be asked to write a Fantasy album, which I can do in my own style, take my time to make each track as good as it can be. I am rarely asked to copy someone else's style, and if I am I decline.

With bespoke briefs, I'm often asked to rip off other people's work (right down to tempo maps, key changes etc), And I also might only be given a few hours to do it (or I get a brief on Friday night to be delivered Monday morning). I always decline these. I don't wish to be a human jukebox.

So for me, library music so far has been creatively rewarding and has given me a solid financial base with which to pick and choose just those bespoke writing projects that are of particular interest to me. I also like to think that my body of library work is like an advert for what I can do, so that film and programme makers might come to me for a bespoke project because they are particularly interested in my composing style.

As long as there are programme makers who value the extra dimension that a bespoke coherent score can bring to a project over cut and paste library music, I hope and think there will always be a market for it.


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## reddognoyz (Jan 16, 2014)

Scoring won't be replaced by library music. But laying a rug of library music under video happens quite a bit. 

I've been party to some pretty ridiculous post sessions, where a director trys to forece-edit library music to match the emotional shifts in the picture. Timing and musical structure be damned! Expectations rarely met that way.

Believe me, if my client could replace me(and scoring) with library music, they would.


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## Vlzmusic (Jan 16, 2014)

I had interesting experience editing and putting together an audiobook (hired by the author). It was conceived similar to a radio play, and had music all the way through.

The author insisted on using old album of her fellow musician, while I offered to score new material at no extra charge (engineering and editorial fee was generous).

So - by cutting and attaching this 10 years old album, which had no relation to the plot - I got to a point when all was neatly connected and emotionally charged. I felt almost ashamed for insisting on writing "specially for it" - cause it came out great.

I am not sure original score should always be better.


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## AC986 (Jan 16, 2014)

reddognoyz @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Scoring won't be replaced by library music. But laying a rug of library music under video happens quite a bit.
> 
> I've been party to some pretty ridiculous post sessions, where a director trys to forece-edit library music to match the emotional shifts in the picture. Timing and musical structure be damned! Expectations rarely met that way.
> 
> Believe me, if my client could replace me(and scoring) with library music, they would.



Thats a realistic post.

When people start going on about 'original' scores it makes me laugh. What is meant by original scores? Someone says I do original scores. I always want to say 'and was it?'
I am naturally genetically sceptical.

I don't hear many original scores today. That's not to say people don't try their absolute best when they are scoring. Of course they do or should. But this word original is a real conundrum to me.


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## Daryl (Jan 16, 2014)

Yes, library music is being used more and more. However, as there is much more content needed these days than ever before, I haven't seen any figures to say that there is much less custom scoring, in terms of the number of actual projects available. There are many more composers these days, and the ease of use of technology and sample libraries has opened the floodgates to composers who, a few years ago, would never have even got a foot in the door. This means that there is huge competition for any gig, and library is just one of those competitors.

As to whether or not this is bad news depends on your perspective. It is highly ironic that some of the people who complain about library music taking away their livelihood are rather silent when confronted with the fact that using sample libraries has all but destroyed the recording industry, for studios, engineers and musicians.

In the end I think balance will be found. Certain programmes, particularly dramas, will function best with custom scoring, others, such as reality TV and some documentaries will work better with library. Far fewer people will be able to earn livings as composers, but there will always be a living for people who have enough in the way of skills.

D


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## Madrigal (Jan 16, 2014)

Daryl @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> It is highly ironic that some of the people who complain about library music taking away their livelihood are rather silent when confronted with the fact that using sample libraries has all but destroyed the recording industry, for studios, engineers and musicians.
> 
> In the end I think balance will be found. Certain programmes, particularly dramas, will function best with custom scoring, others, such as reality TV and some documentaries will work better with library. Far fewer people will be able to earn livings as composers, but there will always be a living for people who have enough in the way of skills.
> 
> D



+1 
Very well put.


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## doctornine (Jan 16, 2014)

Stiltzkin @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Sure if you're just writing generic music that is intended to sound like your every day piece, then fair enough,



With all due respect if you think library is generic and everyday, you'd not get a lot of work writing it :wink:


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## germancomponist (Jan 16, 2014)

Daryl @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> In the end I think balance will be found. Certain programmes, particularly dramas, will function best with custom scoring, others, such as reality TV and some documentaries will work better with library. Far fewer people will be able to earn livings as composers, but there will always be a living for people who have enough in the way of skills.
> 
> D



I would say: "Others, such as reality TV and some documentaries will work *also* with library.


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## Daryl (Jan 16, 2014)

germancomponist @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Daryl @ Thu Jan 16 said:
> 
> 
> > In the end I think balance will be found. Certain programmes, particularly dramas, will function best with custom scoring, others, such as reality TV and some documentaries will work better with library. Far fewer people will be able to earn livings as composers, but there will always be a living for people who have enough in the way of skills.
> ...


Yes, except that sometimes schedules are so tight that custom will never be an option. For example if you are shooting and editing with a two day turnaround, there is no chance of anything but library music.

D


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## germancomponist (Jan 16, 2014)

Agreed!


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## Danielo (Jan 16, 2014)

This is an interesting thread:

I think everyone who is concerned about Library music changing the face of the business should consider what would happen if all those "Professional Amateurs" who compose for Libraries (I am talking here about people who do not make their living full-time from music and I am not making any comment on talent or artistry) decided to give away their stuff for free...

I know the "quality" card can be bandied about, but in a lot of cases FREE trumps everything else (these days).

I would be (am) more concerned about that...at least libraries (the legit ones at least) keep people paying for music...


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## Daryl (Jan 16, 2014)

Danielo @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> This is an interesting thread:
> 
> I think everyone who is concerned about Library music changing the face of the business should consider what would happen if all those "Professional Amateurs" who compose for Libraries (I am talking here about people who do not make their living full-time from music and I am not making any comment on talent or artistry) decided to give away their stuff for free...


That is already the case for some libraries that reply on broadcast Royalties, and have no licence fee (or just a tiny yearly subscription).


Danielo @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> I know the "quality" card can be bandied about, but in a lot of cases FREE trumps everything else (these days).


Unfortunately custom scoring doesn't really have an exclusive use on quality. In fact when you consider that some library music is recorded by the worlds greatest orchestras, there is no way that any TV custom scoring work can match that, unless it is top budget. Not all library composers are cr*p either, so the only trump card is the "custom" bit.

D


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## José Herring (Jan 16, 2014)

It's easier now than ever before for filmmakers to cut their film to music. It's just a matter of time before more start doing that.

So in the future they will have a choice as to use existing music or custom score after the fact.

I say be both. Create your own library and do custom scoring.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 16, 2014)

I have been steadily losing TV work to libraries in the last 4-5 years, increasing more every year. My producer friends tell me it's just a no-brainer, financially. Fortunately, I have been working on the same tv series for 3 seasons now, so I'm OK, but thanks to music libraries, I'm one gig away from having to make big changes in the kinds of work I go for (no more tv, strictly indies, much less $$$), and in my lifestyle.


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## AC986 (Jan 16, 2014)

Cutting to library music is easier than a few years ago. The tendency that I see is when putting out this kind of music it has fairly rigid timings. 30 secs/60 secs and so on.

The other issue that always gets overlooked is who says bespoke music is better than library music these days. I know custom scorers who write music way way way before they get a gig and just use that with a bit of editing. All custom score writers have made their own libraries. :wink:


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## Daryl (Jan 16, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> I have been steadily losing TV work to libraries in the last 4-5 years, increasing more every year. My producer friends tell me it's just a no-brainer, financially.


But what about quality or artistry? If your producer friends are only talking about money, it would suggest that they don't rate the score as being particularly important, and personally I wouldn't want that sort of gig. How do you read their comments?



Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Fortunately, I have been working on the same tv series for 3 seasons now, so I'm OK, but thanks to music libraries, I'm one gig away from having to make big changes in the kinds of work I go for (no more tv, strictly indies, much less $$$), and in my lifestyle.


You blame music libraries for the decline in your living standards, but you have no more right to work than a library music composer. In the end it is just work. Not yours. Not the library composer's. Just work, and you have to fight for it as much as anyone else in any other profession.

Obviously I have sympathy for people who are facing unwanted change in their lives, but equally I don't see that my standard of living is any less important than someone else in the profession.

D


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## José Herring (Jan 16, 2014)

It's not just standard of living. It's pretty well cheapening the value of music. I had the horrifying experience just recently where I gave somebody a quite reasonable quote for an orchestral score. Something that even 10 years ago would have been considered low balling. He freaked at the price and started researching libraries. At the same time he's spending twice that much on the sound mix. 

So now, in this filmmaker's mind, a good music score is only worth the $250 he got on special to access every album in this particular library. And this library had quite a few fully produced cues with orchestra.

So, in my mind it's a matter of racing to the bottom with libraries. And in a few years where every track can be had for $50 we'll all be complaining.

In a sense though we're kind of digging our own graves with library work. It won't be long before the market is so staturated that you'll have to slang it out for pennies. Wasn't it just recently that somebody posted a Hobbit trailer done with library music for which they got paid under a $1000?

The good thing with libraries though is that you can stay at home all day and just crack out music. Then if it gets picked up by a network all the better. But you're risking it all on the backend. No upfront so it puts the cost of production out of your pocket.


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## Daryl (Jan 16, 2014)

Jose, I see what you're saying, but I would ask one question; when you were talking about "an orchestral score" was it really an orchestral score, or was it a sample based score? If the former, I can't see that the budget would suddenly come down from from at least $50K to $250. If it was a sample score, then you have already cheapened music by not hiring the players, so have destroyed your own argument.

D


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## germancomponist (Jan 16, 2014)

Isn't it interesting to see how money dictates ALL!? 

I for my taste hate this! o=<


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## Waywyn (Jan 16, 2014)

syashdown @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I wanted to hear people's thoughts on the impact of the huge volumes of library music that are entering the market nowadays.
> 
> ...



Sorry, no offense though, but it is really funny reading that from someone using Wordpress and stock market website template 
Some designer and a website creator on this planet surely have a post about this "problem" somewhere on this planet on another forum!


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## syashdown (Jan 16, 2014)

Thanks for all the thoughts guys, its great to here all the different views on the subject. 

Stephen Rees - thats great that you find your library work rewarding. I can see what it is you enjoy about it, in the sense you are not tied to a picture and just get to write a track/s. I have been approached recently by a high-end production music company to write some tracks for an album and have been toying with the idea as I like the reference music (M83, Explosions in the Sky, stuff I quite enjoy writing on a personal level, but rarely need to do for film). This in fact is what got me thinking more seriously about the question of what impact library music has. Although I would like to add that what gives me creative satisfaction is less about writing good standalone music but writing music that is inspired and connected to film, its about the magic that happens when those two mediums meet and the exploration I go on in creating that film's musical language. So just writing library music wouldn't really cut it for me in the long term. 



Daryl @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Yes, library music is being used more and more. However, as there is much more content needed these days than ever before, I haven't seen any figures to say that there is much less custom scoring, in terms of the number of actual projects available.
> D



This is a good point, I have to be honest, I haven't seen any decline in my work myself, in fact its the opposite. I'm getting more and more offers all the time due to good work on projects and word of mouth etc. My views on the effect of library music is influenced more by other composers I know, hence my wanting to start this discussion and find out what you guys thought. 

I also agree that there will always be certain projects that need a bespoke score.


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## José Herring (Jan 16, 2014)

Also it's not a matter of quality but of over supply. When I started working nobody wanted to be a library compoer. People started out wanting to work in film and tv and ended up doing library work.

These days almost every younger new composer could give a damn about scoring for TV and film and just want to do library and trailer work. So there are thousands of composers cranking out new tracks every day.

I'm constantly reminded of the infinite monkey theorum when it comes to library work.


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## José Herring (Jan 16, 2014)

Daryl @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Jose, I see what you're saying, but I would ask one question; when you were talking about "an orchestral score" was it really an orchestral score, or was it a sample based score? If the former, I can't see that the budget would suddenly come down from from at least $50K to $250. If it was a sample score, then you have already cheapened music by not hiring the players, so have destroyed your own argument.
> 
> D



It was really an orchestral score recorded in Prague. I had him all convinced and then one day he called me all freaked out that he couldn't afford it blah, blah.... in other words he found a library he liked.


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## germancomponist (Jan 16, 2014)

Waywyn @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Sorry, no offense though, but it is really funny reading that from someone using Wordpress and stock market website template
> Some designer and a website creator on this planet surely have a post about this "problem" somewhere on this planet on another forum!





Right! A wide field! Yes, no?


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## Daryl (Jan 16, 2014)

josejherring @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Daryl @ Thu Jan 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Jose, I see what you're saying, but I would ask one question; when you were talking about "an orchestral score" was it really an orchestral score, or was it a sample based score? If the former, I can't see that the budget would suddenly come down from from at least $50K to $250. If it was a sample score, then you have already cheapened music by not hiring the players, so have destroyed your own argument.
> ...


But then again, recorded in Prague. Not the US.

Look, I'm not getting at anybody here, but there seem to be so many moans about library music, but nobody has any suggestions as to what a solution can be. I would say that something that is far more damaging is composers who are prepared to work stupid hours to make deadlines, and actually agree to scoring gigs when there really isn't enough time. This makes it very difficult for anyone who actually wants to have a life as well as a job.

Personally, the reason I've done so much library is that I can work 5 or 6 hours a day, 3-5 days a week, no evenings, no weekends and still make a fairly good living. I have friends who do scoring work, and none of them can match that.

D


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 16, 2014)

What I see is the music-scoring business' version of what is happening in all Western societies these days: a hollowing out of the middle-class, with a narrowing of the top class, and a significant increase in the working poor. Composers will either make millions or less than 30K. Composers making between 30 and 100K will cease to be. Is that a good thing? Maybe when you're 20-30. At 40-50, it might mean that in order to afford a home, you have to take on a second job. And so no full-time composing anymore, or give up the idea of growth in your way of life. But I'm a dinosaur, coming at this question from a different place than many here, I guess. There are things I take for granted.

But we're all going to be replaced by A.I. in 10 years anyways! o=?


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## José Herring (Jan 16, 2014)

Hardly anything is recorded in the US. The union is making certain that it doesn't happen here.

I'm not looking for solutions. I have too many other problems in my life to try and fix this problem. 

I'm just looking for a way to survive and do good music and make money.

I love scoring but if it all turns to people buying my library tracks I'd probably be just as happy.


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## syashdown (Jan 16, 2014)

Waywyn @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> syashdown @ Thu Jan 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi guys,
> ...



Well, a couple of things about that. 

A - There is a web designer currently working on the site, I got a template I liked and got the basics running so I could change the style and keep the site up without too much trouble. He will be developing and tweaking elements to my satisfaction over the next couple of months without causing too much interruption. 

B - I imagine there are web designers having this conversation and they are entitled to it as they probably do have concerns. Whats your point? 


Am I sensing a little defensiveness from some library composers on here? The point of the conversation isn't an attack on them if some are perceiving it that way. I'm simply explaining my concerns about the situation due to my relationship to scoring film and what it means to me.


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## germancomponist (Jan 16, 2014)

Daryl @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Personally, the reason I've done so much library is that I can work 5 or 6 hours a day, 3-5 days a week, no evenings, no weekends and still make a fairly good living. I have friends who do scoring work, and none of them can match that.
> 
> D



Reminds me to the time when I did many cover-versions of German music. I picked up a piece and re-produced it and then sold it. This was a cool time, but you now earn much less money as in the past, so I quit it.


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## Daryl (Jan 16, 2014)

syashdown @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Am I sensing a little defensiveness from some library composers on here? The point of the conversation isn't an attack on them if some are perceiving it that way. I'm simply explaining my concerns about the situation due to my relationship to scoring film and what it means to me.


I don't think it's defensiveness; more a desire to explain why, even though many on this forum think that all library is cr*p, some of us choose to do it.

D


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## Daryl (Jan 16, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> What I see is the music-scoring business' version of what is happening in all Western societies these days: a hollowing out of the middle-class, with a narrowing of the top class, and a significant increase in the working poor. Composers will either make millions or less than 30K. Composers making between 30 and 100K will cease to be. Is that a good thing? Maybe when you're 20-30. At 40-50, it might mean that in order to afford a home, you have to take on a second job. And so no full-time composing anymore, or give up the idea of growth in your way of life. But I'm a dinosaur, coming at this question from a different place than many here, I guess. There are things I take for granted.


Agreed, but none of these things happen in a vacuum. On the one hand people complain about lack of work and low fees, and then they go and buy a phone than has been assembled by some Chinese slave children. We all want things to be cheaper. we just don't like it when we are also replaced by something cheaper.



Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> But we're all going to be replaced by A.I. in 10 years anyways! o=?


And there it is.

D


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 16, 2014)

I don't think that many people here think that library music is shite. In fact that's the rub: it's getting really, really good.

And producers/directors are busy, busy, busy, so it's easier to use a library. And so the skill of scoring is passed on to the editor. The composers work in a vacuum, away from image, and the public couldn't care less, 'cause they're texting while watching, not listening, and the music's great anyways.


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## Stephen Rees (Jan 16, 2014)

syashdown @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Am I sensing a little defensiveness from some library composers on here? The point of the conversation isn't an attack on them if some are perceiving it that way. I'm simply explaining my concerns about the situation due to my relationship to scoring film and what it means to me.



Speaking only for myself, the only issue I take is with those people who think that all library music composers crank out crappy generic music to make a fast buck. Personally every piece of work I do is the very best I can do - library or otherwise - and since I have more time to write a library track, it is usually better musically and production wise than anything I can write to picture (assuming I have to record and mix it all myself).

I think that you have a similar ethic to that with your work, and I'd encourage you to take that gig and have a go. It'll probably be a lot of fun, and personally I don't think you are harming anyone or the industry in general in doing so.


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## AC986 (Jan 16, 2014)

Simon you asked the question. You started this thread. There is no defensiveness that I can see. Also, always remember when you put up music others can hear it. Music is just music and the fact that's it's written either specifically or generically has no bearing on being defensive about writing library music. 
Actually, on a personal basis I am guilty of looking down my noise at people that write to picture but that's because old music college types like me grew up in that environment. It's a character fault I must address sometime.

@Gunther. Don't you care about the money Gunther?


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## syashdown (Jan 16, 2014)

Daryl @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> syashdown @ Thu Jan 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Am I sensing a little defensiveness from some library composers on here? The point of the conversation isn't an attack on them if some are perceiving it that way. I'm simply explaining my concerns about the situation due to my relationship to scoring film and what it means to me.
> ...



Ok, yes, that makes sense. Just so everyone knows, the intention wasn't to have a conversation about how crap library music is, I think there's some great stuff out there. I was more thinking about the effect this increase in quality has on the industry and those that like to write bespoke for film. Because while I think a bespoke score adds more value in a lot of cases, the difference is getting harder to see from the producers/executives perspective.


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## Waywyn (Jan 16, 2014)

syashdown @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Waywyn @ Thu Jan 16 said:
> 
> 
> > syashdown @ Thu Jan 16 said:
> ...




A - there is a cutter who is currently working on the library music. He got the template (the library music) his boss likes and he is working on it, tweaking its elements to his satisfaction and so on!

B - my point is, that as you complain about lib music (which I for some sort understand) there are REAL webdesigners (not the guys filling up template library such as themeforest! 


I am for sure not trying to defend something because honestly I don't care anymore about these discussions. I honestly give a fuck about what most composers think about me or the field I am working in, because I am happy, I can feed my family and over the time I broadened my field to compose not just for one thing, but for almost everything out there, starting from CD productions over library/trailer music to video game music, tv ads etc. ... I also do session and vocal guitar stuff, not because I am an expert in all these, but I understand what people want!
... and if one music branch is crumbling down I am happy to have my feet into lots of others. If I stumble, I don't whine but get up, adjust my crown and keep on walking 

What I was basically trying to say with my previous post is, that people like you complain about library music but are okay to use library website templates. So my point wasn't defense or any kind of offense taken. My point was - and I try to explain it with your words - to explain my concerns about the situation due to the relationship of every other expertise!


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## José Herring (Jan 16, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> I don't think that many people here think that library music is shite. In fact that's the rub: it's getting really, really good.
> 
> And producers/directors are busy, busy, busy, so it's easier to use a library. And so the skill of scoring is passed on to the editor. The composers work in a vacuum, away from image, and the public couldn't care less, 'cause they're texting while watching, not listening, and the music's great anyways.



Texting while watching can get you killed!!


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## Daryl (Jan 16, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> I don't think that many people here think that library music is shite. In fact that's the rub: it's getting really, really good.


I think that many people actually don't realise it. In fact there has been good library music for a long time, particularly in the orchestral field, just the explosion of technology, and sample libraries in particular, have enabled many more people to throw their hats in the ring.

However, I can let you into a little secret, as far as library companies and UK usage are concerned. The big broadcasters are commissioning their own libraries, so in the future most in-house programs will be told to use the in-house tracks, which means not only will custom scoring be reduced, but so will general library usage well. How do you like them apples?

D


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## syashdown (Jan 16, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Simon you asked the question. You started this thread. There is no defensiveness that I can see. Also, always remember when you put up music others can hear it. Music is just music and the fact that's it's written either specifically or generically has no bearing on being defensive about writing library music.



I think I was picking up on what Daryl mentioned about some composers feeling like they are looked down upon for writing "crappy" library music.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 16, 2014)

Friends, please stop defending something that is not being attacked, but that is rather the one doing the attacking (metaphorically, of course). The issue, IMO, is that library music is really good, really handy, and a poison to those holding onto the past. But it's not personal!


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## AC986 (Jan 16, 2014)

syashdown @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> adriancook @ Thu Jan 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Simon you asked the question. You started this thread. There is no defensiveness that I can see. Also, always remember when you put up music others can hear it. Music is just music and the fact that's it's written either specifically or generically has no bearing on being defensive about writing library music.
> ...



Maybe so but nothing like as much score writers get looked down on these days. :wink:


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## Daryl (Jan 16, 2014)

syashdown @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Just so everyone knows, the intention wasn't to have a conversation about how crap library music is, I think there's some great stuff out there. I was more thinking about the effect this increase in quality has on the industry and those that like to write bespoke for film. Because while I think a bespoke score adds more value in a lot of cases, the difference is getting harder to see from the producers/executives perspective.



Traditionally, the custom score was the best way to get a good sounding score that works well with the picture. However, things are no longer so clear.

1) Can you write better music? This is not a given, as there are millions of library cues for a director to choose from, and those cues might have taken days to craft, rather than the rush that most custom scoring has to deal with.

2) Are your production values higher? This is also not a given, because whilst there is certainly a load of bad sounding rubbish out there, it is also possible to find well produced, recorded and mixed cues performed by orchestras like the LSO. Try matching that with your samples....

3) Custom works better with the picture. Well, it certainly should, if it's been written to order. This really is the trump card, but if you want to play it, you have to be sure that you are already neck and neck on the first two points, because if your music isn't as well written or produced as the library tracks it is in competition with, then budget won't even matter.

D


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## AC986 (Jan 16, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Friends, please stop defending something that is not being attacked, but that is rather the one doing the attacking (metaphorically, of course). The issue, IMO, is that library music is really good, really handy, and a poison to those holding onto the past. But it's not personal!



Absolutely and writing music in the first place is hard enough.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 16, 2014)

And then again, if tv gigs completely sour, there's always work on the [strike]indies[/strike] youtube, getting [strike]5000[/strike] 500 bucks for [strike]four[/strike] two week's work.


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## Daryl (Jan 16, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> And then again, if tv gigs completely sour, there's always work on the [strike]indies[/strike] youtube, getting [strike]5000[/strike] 500 bucks for [strike]four[/strike] two week's work.


Or getting a proper job.... :wink:


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## jeffc (Jan 16, 2014)

Interesting and obviously timely topic (although there's been talk of library being the end of the industry for as long as I can remember).

A few thoughts:

- I don't think the issue is with the quality of library music anymore. It's pretty amazing and as good as anything else. Years ago, some library stuff was very midi sounding and cheap, but now it's as good as anything 'custom' and if you listen to Extreme, Immediate, etc the production value is top notch. And that's without even talking about Hans' new Bleeding Fingers entry. I think that writing for library is just different - no less talent, just different. Scoring is an art of reacting to picture, not just making tracks. There's a different mentality there. No more or less, just different. Which is why I think library is great for certain things, not so much for others.

- I obviously think for some types of jobs, library is obviously taking work away. Always has and more these days. TV docs, reality, unscripted stuff obviously use a lot of it. However, I don't think it's all gloom and doom for guys who write to pic. The one obvious limitation of library, by it's very nature, is that it's a bunch of cues, but they're all unrelated. You might find the perfect piece of library for your film, but it doesn't have the tie in it's DNA to other cues in the film. Both sonically and melodically. That is where a custom score makes itself unique to a film (unless it's really ambient and generic). That is where I don't think library will ever take away. Even indie film, coming up with a unique concept for a score and writing 30-60 minutes of score that's all tied together would be hard to match with a library. Even if a library offered 'suites' of cues that are all thematically related, once it's used one time, it's been heard before. And regardless of budget level, I've never had a director or producer who didn't want a score that was 'original' to their film. And I use original as to somehow unique to their film. It takes a lot to get a film made - and even if there's no money, I don't think library will kill film scores ever.

- Another thought, and this is one that nobody seems to ever talk about. Thank god for that. But for every TV show - network or cable - that's got an original composer each week, they have a huge library of cues that they own from their shows. If a show is cancelled, the music is just sitting on a shelf and never used again. Think if someone decided to make these old tv scores available for use on new shows. This would kill both libraries and original composers at once. A very scary prospect. Thankfully, while everyone wants to save a buck, the people making most things want the best they can get for their project. If that mentally ever takes a turn, look out below for all of us....

J


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 16, 2014)

One thing's for sure: both young and old here can learn from each other, as the industry is changing, but there are past lessons which can be learned from. One of them, IMO, is to know what has been lost. Those of us with decades of experience can attest to that. For e.g., I got paid 30,000 for my first real feature film, using only samples and synths. Try getting that today early in your career, outside of Hollywood. BTW, I'm sure that it's still possible, just a lot rarer. I used to get visits by the director/producer, we would hang out, I would try things. The kind of things that you hear Hans talk about, the exchanges, chance ideas, stimulation from a different mind. That's not only gone due to communication advances, but library composers miss out on that as well, and might not even appreciate what it means to their own growth as artists.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 16, 2014)

To any here who mention indies as opportunities, I simply ask: where? which indies? All I know is that it's never, ever been as hard to make independent cinema as it is today. Don't take my word for it, just ask any director over 30.


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## syashdown (Jan 16, 2014)

Waywyn - Just need to clear this up with you. 

I'm not complaining about library music, I'm asking for opinions on the subject as I have concerns over the future of film composition in the manner that I enjoy it. Don't worry, I'm not a whiner and I'll "adjust my crown and keep on walking" whichever way it turns. Although in truth deep down I'm confident in keeping my work due to the satisfaction from my clients and the new opportunities that seem to be opening up for me (if you look at some of the previous posts you'll see me explain about my personal situation). However I also do work as an instrument sound designer, traditional sound designer and engineering recordings so there are plenty of options if necessary. 

Of course I can use a website template, the same way I think producers should have the right to use library music. When I have the budget to get a website designed from scratch then I will (currently the studio is having a big revamp), in the meantime this is what works for me.

Again, I'll state, I'm just talking about what it might mean for composers who enjoy working the way I'm working. That doesn't mean I'm complaining about the situation or taking a victim stance or attacking creators of library music.


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## AC986 (Jan 16, 2014)

Daryl @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Jan 16 said:
> 
> 
> > And then again, if tv gigs completely sour, there's always work on the [strike]indies[/strike] youtube, getting [strike]5000[/strike] 500 bucks for [strike]four[/strike] two week's work.
> ...



Fuck that!


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## syashdown (Jan 16, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> syashdown @ Thu Jan 16 said:
> 
> 
> > adriancook @ Thu Jan 16 said:
> ...



:wink:


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## givemenoughrope (Jan 16, 2014)

jeffc @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Think if someone decided to make these old tv scores available for use on new shows. This would kill both libraries and original composers at once. A very scary prospect. Thankfully, while everyone wants to save a buck, the people making most things want the best they can get for their project. If that mentally ever takes a turn, look out below for all of us....
> 
> J



But those cues are essentially library music. And stylistically older cues at that. Unless they edit to the music how could these 'libraries' encroach on original scoring that is current? I guess that is where the quality issue comes in.


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## syashdown (Jan 16, 2014)

jeffc @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Interesting and obviously timely topic (although there's been talk of library being the end of the industry for as long as I can remember).
> 
> A few thoughts:
> 
> ...



Agreed.


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## jeffc (Jan 16, 2014)

re: it's library music already. 


Well yes it is. But networks own that music, not the other libraries. It wouldn't be that hard for them to force producers to use music that they own, rather than outside libraries, thus them keeping the performances in house. Some networks already have built their own 'song' libraries that they highly encourage producers to consider. If that happens with score, look out....


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## syashdown (Jan 16, 2014)

jeffc @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> re: it's library music already.
> 
> 
> Well yes it is. But networks own that music, not the other libraries. It wouldn't be that hard for them to force producers to use music that they own, rather than outside libraries, thus them keeping the performances in house. Some networks already have built their own 'song' libraries that they highly encourage producers to consider. If that happens with score, look out....



So is it standard in US for the networks to own the music? Often in the UK you will only grant them a sync license, so they wouldn't be able to reuse the music for other projects. Although I am starting to see more contracts like this over here.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 16, 2014)

Particularly good post from jeffc.

Randoms....

1. Library music got good. 30 years ago it was generally terrible, a bit of a joke. Not any more.

2. For microbudget pictures (total budget in the low thousands - student pics and first time experimenters), the cheapest option will remain scoring for free. Licensing decent library music costs. For those starting out, it's still a viable option.

3. Many composers write exclusively library and (I'm told) do financially well out of it. Others do both commissions and library when quiet, which seems a good solution for some.

4. With my dubbing / music editor hat on (not drama), I still frequently turn to library rather than attempt to score my own stuff. Two reasons - one, time; two, for certain eras and genres that I couldn't pull off well (eg vintage pre-WW2 / bluegrass etc)

5. Still wearing that hat (again, non-drama), I sometimes write my own custom very short simple cues that need a specific feel (<10s) where it's quicker to load a multi or Nexus 2 patch than search through library. Library searching takes time, and it's sometimes the quickest option. It's barely "composing", and I sometimes feel guilty I'm doing jobbing library composers out of work. I'd imagine most competant editors / music editors could do this with the right tools.

6. Need to keep busting the myth that that Hobbit trailer was stock library music for £1k - go back to that thread...

7. For drama, library music is very rarely better than true scoring to picture, even if the production values of the latter are lower than the former. Good library music will give an instant production value hit, but editing to match a scene that will in all liklihood deviate from the music's own journey is tiresome at best and usually pretty disasterous (and boy I've tried in the past). Even if using stock sample libraries, if the composition itself is decent and the composer can tell a story, it'll serve picture better. Good producers and directors know this.

8. Hans Zimmer is exploring new ways of working which almost combine the role of music editing and composing I believe. A score like Inception was created from suites inspired by the film, not by being scored directly to picture. It feels to me a little like using library music specifically created for a picture, and it's an intriguing development.

9. As is so often the case, change and new technology creates risk, challenge and opportunity. I get how some people prefer working in one way rather than another (I like scoring to picture more than anything), but to survive composers might have to consider working differently, at least some of the time.


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## syashdown (Jan 16, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> I think that you have a similar ethic to that with your work, and I'd encourage you to take that gig and have a go. It'll probably be a lot of fun, and personally I don't think you are harming anyone or the industry in general in doing so.



Yeah, I might just dip my toe in and see how I enjoy it, maybe it'll bring a new dimension to my work life. Also its good to see these things from from both sides of the fence.


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## rgames (Jan 16, 2014)

The one thing missing from this discussion is the most important: the audience.

First off, we're not talking about major productions. There will always be room at the top for a few lucky folks to work on great films and TV shows. We're talking about the ranks below the top. And in those ranks, what percentage of audiences have ever disliked a movie because of the music? What percentage of audiences even notice the music?

Given your answer to those questions, if you were a director who was pressured to make money, what would you do?

Library music is meeting a demand. It's economics, and the barriers to entry are getting lower as technology improves. So you have a product that most people view as a commodity (if they view it at all) and it's getting easier to produce. You don't need a degree in economics to see where that train is headed.

Plus, and this is another important point: the product arises from work that a *lot* of people do for fun. If they can also make a few bucks at it, then why not? Library music has extremely low barriers to entry - you can work at your own pace, you can write what you want, and if you have a day job then you don't have to worry about making money from it. Add all of that up and you get a perfect recipe for driving value down to near zero.

So, yes, library music has an impact on the industry. I don't know if it's really having a negative impact on folks writing custom music but I bet it is. It certainly is creating opportunity for others who do it as a side job.

rgames


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 16, 2014)

Product =





Music = :D


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## givemenoughrope (Jan 16, 2014)

Try to imagine Breaking Bad or Mad Men with even the best, most meticulously edited library music. They would be about half as good. Yes, they rely heavily on source/songs. It's the original score that takes you into those worlds and also doesn't disrupt you once you're there.

I guess no one is actually arguing against that…but still, they are sort of the standard for tv drama of the last few years. It's hard to see it going that way at the very top…it's even hard to see how a library specifically tailored for the show could work except here and there.


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## germancomponist (Jan 16, 2014)

As I said: All is a money thing! 

Money money money.....! I hate money because money destroyed everything important and human!


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## Stephen Rees (Jan 16, 2014)

germancomponist @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> As I said: All is a money thing!
> 
> Money money money.....! I hate money because money destroyed everything important and human!



Well....perhaps. But have you ever tried to barter a piece of your music for a packet of Chocolate Hobnobs at the local supermarket?


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## impressions (Jan 16, 2014)

There is truth that we whore the music also by using VI. or by using templates on our noobish composer's websites.
when I started using samples I thought of it as a very cool way to make music i couldn't do before. and later as a good way of breaking in, later on hiring live players and not using that crap(yes i think samples are crap). or just another way to make a living as a musician. which is perhaps what makes everyone happy about their job.

and alex, regarding your point-I hate TV, hate bad food, chocolate, porn, etc and yet i sometime consume it, does that make it okay? 

do we all need to become monks to prove a point?
the world has become a model of our own laziness, or greed, what ever made those libraries of both samples and tracks possible.
and now there are consequences.

You can't ignore the burning out of composers salaries. I'm not saying stop writing library music. I don't make the call. you people do.
you provide them with the meat.
but I for one am "monk"ing out of this one.

adrian, you laugh because its artistically of me to that? I laugh also, we made this happen ourselves.
but in the end you can see the better music was written before us.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 16, 2014)

rgames @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> The one thing missing from this discussion is the most important: the audience.
> 
> First off, we're not talking about major productions. There will always be room at the top for a few lucky folks to work on great films and TV shows. We're talking about the ranks below the top. And in those ranks, what percentage of audiences have ever disliked a movie because of the music? What percentage of audiences even notice the music?
> 
> Given your answer to those questions, if you were a director who was pressured to make money, what would you do?



Good heavens Richard. that's an uncharacteristically poor argument.

How many people come out of the movie discussing the editing? How many notice the cuts in a TV show? What percentage of people have any comprehension of the part that editing plays? Less than 1? Can't be much more than 1, be honest.

Does that make the editor's job unimportant for the audience? Um.... no. The skill of the editor can transform a performance, can make a scene and story drag or sail by. Her slight of hand can make you see or hear things you haven't, her phenomenal power of suggestion can immerse. Yet, unless it is Moulin Rouge where something approaching 2% notice the editing in sophisticated college towns, all that goes completely over the head of over 99% of the audience.

By contrast, the composer has a real showy job. Maybe 3% "notice" the music in a West Hollywood 50 screen multiplex. But again, everyone will have been affected by it, subconsciously.

So given MY answer to your questions, I'd hope a director or producer would understand why they employ good production designers, editors, sound designers, composers, costume designers and cinematographers, because as William Goldman is fond of pointing out, all those jobs are often more important than the director's job itself.

Or in short - it's the wrong question for this thread.


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## AC986 (Jan 16, 2014)

Ariel I think you have to realise that this is not an artistic crusade for a lot of us. It's about money and if you can enjoy what you are doing at the same time then good. 

If your kitchen sink is faulty and you get quotes for repair from 5 different plumbers are you going to pay the highest quote because the other 4 are not as artistic. Who says and decides what is artistic and does the audience really know or care most of time when they hear music in the background. Even the musician doesn't know.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 16, 2014)

adriancook @ 16/1/2014 said:


> Ariel I think you have to realise that this is not an artistic crusade for a lot of us. It's about money and if you can enjoy what you are doing at the same time then good.



And I say if you don't enjoy what you're doing, change professions. Anyhow, being a composer is a calling, a yearning, an overwhelming desire, and a privilege.


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## impressions (Jan 16, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Who says and decides what is artistic and does the audience really know or care most of time when they hear music in the background. Even the musician doesn't know.



come on...anyone with basic artistic integrity will. I don't know to what kind of music you grew up listening, but did it feel like you're consuming chocolate or healthy food?

don't tell me you didn't watch a movie which wasn't action and actually got more of it? or listened to some music that inspired you? I don't think I need to outline the meaning of artistic integrity to you, unless you were raised in some cave where they feed you only bad music. i'm sure you weren't. 

The audience will know when someone is being truthful at him, some artists can sell themselves very well, and bullshit the audience better to make do with monthly payments. I dig that. everyone in the industry does it. but that's not the issue-it is the same with bad listening music. there are people who clone what they hear to sound like them and to sell more because of it, and there are people who try to make something new and fresh and different. isn't that what its all about? 

I can't put my finger on exactly how to put it, but if you'll listen to really good music and talk to some sincere beings, you will get a hint, for sure. and that's not cynical.

the fact that you can bullshit the audience, is less worse than the fact that you educate the audience that the bullshit is good, and feed him this diet of bad food-while knowing it.

Look, I have no solution for this. there is a demand, and maybe 10 people reading this, if they make a buck on selling tracks, they will never quit it because of some "artistic integrity". I have no idea what to do, but I know its bad. for you and me.


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## AC986 (Jan 16, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> adriancook @ 16/1/2014 said:
> 
> 
> > Ariel I think you have to realise that this is not an artistic crusade for a lot of us. It's about money and if you can enjoy what you are doing at the same time then good.
> ...



I met a jewel thief who thought exactly the same way about his chosen profession.


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## José Herring (Jan 16, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Ariel I think you have to realise that this is not an artistic crusade for a lot of us. It's about money and if you can enjoy what you are doing at the same time then good.
> /quote]
> 
> Far easier and better ways to make money if that's all you're into.


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## AC986 (Jan 16, 2014)

Ariel I have known and probably fall into this category myself, countless musicians who had convinced themselves that what they were producing was full of artistic merit and integrity. And that's what really counts right?


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## AC986 (Jan 16, 2014)

josejherring @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> adriancook @ Thu Jan 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Ariel I think you have to realise that this is not an artistic crusade for a lot of us. It's about money and if you can enjoy what you are doing at the same time then good.
> ...



Definitely.

Library music is a lot like stock photography. It's a numbers game.


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## impressions (Jan 16, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Ariel I have known and probably fall into this category myself, countless musicians who had convinced themselves that what they were producing was full of artistic merit and integrity. And that's what really counts right?



well I don't know why but I don't think you buy that yourself. the fact that you present it like this is evident of that.

of course there are artists who dwell in themselves like they were the next messiah, and glorify their existence as a "true artist!" just by making noise which is organized and consistent with current bullshit on the mainstream.
that doesn't say anything-just like you've said in that sentence. 
IMHO it doesn't stop there. there is a statement, there is self consciousness and there's the talent to be able to deliver it properly. like hendrix in woodstock. maybe. there are wanna be's and the ones that made the industry stand on its feet and bring hoards of people to listen and be inspired. 

Can't really spell that one. its tricky, maybe watch some frank zappa interviews.


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## markwind (Jan 16, 2014)

Ariel, how is this _any_ different, from the debates about musicians selling out? Ie. being involved in any commercialized business would be already selling your artistic integrity/sincerity/honesty to alot of people within a certain context. It's an incredibly old and recounted debate that has no victor, everyone defines these concepts different enough for the argument to be everlasting. 

Also, I think you underestimate the diversity with which people experience/categorize their movie-going/music-listening experience and the artists that create them, entirely based upon different wants for what people want to get out of it. Todays (audience) landscape is incredibly difficult to understand in a singular manner because of it's increased diversity, for every example you bring up that reinforces your point, another one can be found proving the opposite. Which does not mean that your take on this matter isn't true, I think it is, but it shouldn't be interpreted as THE defining characteristic of today's landscape, it is merely one characteristic of many.

If i am making sense .


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 16, 2014)

I haven't read this thread and therefore apologize in advance if anyone has made this point, but library music was *more* of a threat in the days when you had to hire a live ensemble to produce music.

In the '80s I lost more than one job because the producer figured he could get a much bigger sound from a library than from a guy with four players in a studio, and for less money (leaving out that someone who knows what he/she is doing can get a really big sound with four musicians, of course).


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## germancomponist (Jan 16, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> germancomponist @ Thu Jan 16 said:
> 
> 
> > As I said: All is a money thing!
> ...



Money slaves! This is the word I use nowadays. So poor!!!

Eventually humanity will overcome this idiotic system. o/~ o=< o-[][]-o


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## Greg (Jan 16, 2014)

Adapt or get squashed.


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## Musicologo (Jan 16, 2014)

As someone doing research on this area:



> But we're all going to be replaced by A.I. in 10 years anyways! dncgele




This is spot on.
Right now I push a button and my computer generates beautiful music. I can literally provide you a 100 minute piece in 100 seconds.

Give it some more years and instead of "fairly interesting midi music" you'll have "music that sounds exactly what you hear today in library music".

If you add a procedural/generative AI on top of that, you'll have something similar to some videogames today. Not only stock music to lay on background, but music that actually reacts to the picture.

On that day, producers will be buying software not hiring composers.

We are reaching the era of "fast-music", similar to "fast-food".

There will be ALWAYS a market and a space for gourmet music.
But the same classes that go to cheap restaurants and fast-food drive ins, will consume "fast-music".


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## impressions (Jan 17, 2014)

markwind @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Ariel, how is this _any_ different, from the debates about musicians selling out? Ie. being involved in any commercialized business would be already selling your artistic integrity/sincerity/honesty to alot of people within a certain context. It's an incredibly old and recounted debate that has no victor, everyone defines these concepts different enough for the argument to be everlasting.
> 
> Also, I think you underestimate the diversity with which people experience/categorize their movie-going/music-listening experience and the artists that create them, entirely based upon different wants for what people want to get out of it. Todays (audience) landscape is incredibly difficult to understand in a singular manner because of it's increased diversity, for every example you bring up that reinforces your point, another one can be found proving the opposite. Which does not mean that your take on this matter isn't true, I think it is, but it shouldn't be interpreted as THE defining characteristic of today's landscape, it is merely one characteristic of many.
> 
> If i am making sense .



As Adrian put it well, what does it matter? It's a job. It's like gourmet food. It's about selling. And with the right perspective it can even be called art. 
To tell you the truth I struggle with this question on every project I take. There is a question of validity. If you are in a commercial business that does not mean there is no honesty in it. If you're into making fun games, with fun music, you're doing a job, but even there there's room for depth and honesty. Like in everything in art. I think. 
Besides I don't think anyone can really write good music without being honest about .
But the discussion was if composers degrade the music? The answer is no. But are they selling themselves short? Not sure it's a definite yes. But it's not a no. 

If for some people AI is the way to go, so be it. I'm sure some clever scientist will crack The human mind eventualy and synthesize it. But will that make our world better? 
Isn't that a form of self destruction?
Evolution. No. We are the ones who are controlling the evolution and its direction.

In any case it doesn't matter what I say.


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## Daryl (Jan 17, 2014)

impressions @ Fri Jan 17 said:


> But the discussion was if composers degrade the music? The answer is no. But are they selling themselves short? Not sure it's a definite yes. But it's not a no.


In what way do you think that they are selling themselves short? Writing library music and writing to film are different skills.

D


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 17, 2014)

10. AI will have far less impact than confidently predicted by some. Do you remember that thread two or three years ago about that amazing software where you just hum a tune and the software could convincingly turn it into any fully scored genre? Hans Zimmer put his name to it? It was going to be the end of the composing profession? I've not heard of it once since. Like how the internet is going always fail in 6 months due to increased demand and yet it never does, AI will remain the technology that is always about to replace us all, but never does.


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## impressions (Jan 17, 2014)

Daryl I believe, and you can probably see it yourself, that there is a direct correlation between libraries usage and the degradation of composers salaries. 

Just the fact that producers use the libraries as a model for a soundtrack in their productions. 

Yes it's a business, so why ruin the profession?
Samples degraded the use of live players, and now less people will become players because of us. 
Composers wrote music for samples and for libraries. Not the producers, they only care about minimizing the budget and maximizing the profit.


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## AC986 (Jan 17, 2014)

impressions @ Fri Jan 17 said:


> Daryl I believe, and you can probably see it yourself, that there is a direct correlation between libraries usage and the degradation of composers salaries.



I must say I have never heard a library writer complain about bespoke score writers taking business away from them.

Incidentally, the famous theme to The Avengers was library music.


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## Daryl (Jan 17, 2014)

impressions @ Fri Jan 17 said:


> Daryl I believe, and you can probably see it yourself, that there is a direct correlation between libraries usage and the degradation of composers salaries.
> 
> Just the fact that producers use the libraries as a model for a soundtrack in their productions.
> 
> ...


Ah, but you are assuming that we all agree that bespoke music is the profession. I see it as one part. You may see your salary being degraded, but my income goes up every year. Are you saying that I should earn less so that you can earn more? What makes you think that I want to ruin my life by working stupid hours, never seeing my family and having no hobbies?

D


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## Daryl (Jan 17, 2014)

adriancook @ Fri Jan 17 said:


> impressions @ Fri Jan 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl I believe, and you can probably see it yourself, that there is a direct correlation between libraries usage and the degradation of composers salaries.
> ...


That's because we're realistic enough to realise that it's nobodies work until they are offered it.

D


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## AC986 (Jan 17, 2014)

Daryl @ Fri Jan 17 said:


> What makes you think that I want to ruin my life by working stupid hours, never seeing my family and having no hobbies?
> 
> D



Most laymen think when you tell them you do music for a living it's just really your hobby. You don't actually know or do anything outside of music. That's the way most people seem to see it. One bloke actually said to me once, how can you be a scratch golfer and be a musician? Was being serious. :roll:


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## Daryl (Jan 17, 2014)

adriancook @ Fri Jan 17 said:


> Daryl @ Fri Jan 17 said:
> 
> 
> > What makes you think that I want to ruin my life by working stupid hours, never seeing my family and having no hobbies?
> ...


Well for myself I need my hobbies and family time, or else my musical brain would never switch off. As it is I think it's always working in the background. I avoid my studio as much as possible, as I prefer to do all the thinking away from computers. However, I do understand that for other people this is not an option.

D


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## Stephen Rees (Jan 17, 2014)

Daryl @ Fri Jan 17 said:


> I avoid my studio as much as possible, as I prefer to do all the thinking away from computers.



I try and do this too. It makes me feel more a musician, and less a computer programmer


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## doctornine (Jan 17, 2014)

Greg @ Fri Jan 17 said:


> Adapt or get squashed.



Finally.... a post thats sensible with no whinging :twisted:


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## rgames (Jan 17, 2014)

impressions @ Fri Jan 17 said:


> Daryl I believe, and you can probably see it yourself, that there is a direct correlation between libraries usage and the degradation of composers salaries.


Well, global temperatures also have been going up over the past few decades, so if composers' wages are, in fact, falling, then there's a correlation there, as well. But I think it's a stretch to say they're related in a causal way... Correlation and causality are two differnt things.

Second, I'm willing to bet there are just as many composers these days making a good living as there ever were. However, I'm also willing to bet there are a *lot more* folks at the low end. So, yes, the average wage is falling, but I don't think it's because there are lower-paid people at the top (maybe at the top 10% but not at the top 1%). I think it's just because there are more lower-paid people at the bottom than ever before.

Of course, I have never seen any figures to back up that hunch. It's just a hunch. Maybe libraries have affected incomes a little bit but my guess is that it's not really all that much for folks at the upper end because those productions aren't using library music. There has been an explosion of new media outlets that want music for their productions and that's what I think has fed the growth of the library music market. And, as I said above, that market need can be met by people who can do it as a side job, mostly for fun and with no real need for the money, so it will drive down the amount of money spent in that market.

rgames


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## jeffc (Jan 17, 2014)

One other thought on this issue...

I think too many people are seeing this as a black and white situation.

There are many successful film composers that also have tracks in libraries. You would be shocked when you see the cue sheets on some of this stuff at some of the names that have library tracks. I mean, like top 10 guys, names you guys talk about around here all the time. 

People have to be smart and adapt. That might mean doing several different things. The industry is always going to change. And, like many in the record industry who cling to the past, it will move forward whether you like it or not. Indie film fees have been going down for sure, tv shows are relatively stable, studio films are all over the freaking place. But the guys who make a living do many things to make themselves relevant. Libraries are a good way to augment your income. And years later, the royalties on those placements will help you weather the slow times in other aspects of what you are doing. There is no shame in that. And if you think there is, you have really no idea how this game really works...

Jeff


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 17, 2014)

Some of us really like working to image, around the challenging obstacles made of dialogue, FX, etc + getting valuable insight from directors. There's nothing like the feeling of sculpting my score around complex emotions, evocative scenes. Writing for libraries cannot match that.


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## AC986 (Jan 17, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Jan 17 said:


> Some of us really like working to image, around the challenging obstacles made of dialogue, FX, etc + getting valuable insight from directors. There's nothing like the feeling of sculpting my score around complex emotions, evocative scenes. Writing for libraries cannot match that.



Yes it must be very interesting.


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## Daryl (Jan 17, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Jan 17 said:


> Some of us really like working to image, around the challenging obstacles made of dialogue, FX, etc + getting valuable insight from directors. There's nothing like the feeling of sculpting my score around complex emotions, evocative scenes. Writing for libraries cannot match that.


It's not supposed to match it. Its different. Just as writing concert music is different.

D


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 17, 2014)

syashdown @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I wanted to hear people's thoughts on the impact of the huge volumes of library music that are entering the market nowadays.
> 
> ...



For we Yanks - bespoke means custom.

I think it's worth noting that Bernard Herrmann made most of his money with the libraries he recorded for CBS. And Herrmann still scored films and did other work.

So I don't see this as either/or but both/and. I do library music now and it gives me the opportunity to go into different directions and not be hampered by extreme deadlines. If someone wants to hire/commission me - my bank account is available.


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## rgames (Jan 17, 2014)

Daryl @ Fri Jan 17 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Jan 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Some of us really like working to image, around the challenging obstacles made of dialogue, FX, etc + getting valuable insight from directors. There's nothing like the feeling of sculpting my score around complex emotions, evocative scenes. Writing for libraries cannot match that.
> ...


Right. A lot of library music isn't even intended specifically for libraries. A lot of it is just albums that people did and sent to a library in the hopes of generating some extra income. What the heck - no barriers to entry, nothing to lose. Might as well send it.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet that some of the highest per-minute fees paid for music in film/TV was *not* written to picture.

Writing to picture is fun. Working with a team is fun. But so is putting down your own musical ideas without having to subordinate yourself to someone else's vision.

As said elsewhere, it's not one or the other. You can enjoy both.

rgames


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## Cruciform (Jan 18, 2014)

doctornine @ Fri Jan 17 said:


> Greg @ Fri Jan 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Adapt or get squashed.
> ...



Yep, thread could have ended there. o-[][]-o


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## doctornine (Jan 18, 2014)

Yeah, but if it did I couldn't say :

As a library composer, I find it a threat to my career thats there's so damn many of these "proper" composers trying to muscle in on my work. I mean..... how dare they seek commissioned work when there's all this well produced library music out there for the taking.

Pot, kettle, etc etc etc


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 18, 2014)

First they came for the studio musicians, and I did nothing, because I'm not a studio musician.
Then they came for the composer to image, and I did nothing because I'm not a composer to image.
Then they came for me (library composer), and there's was no one left to fight them.
:wink:


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## Markus S (Jan 18, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> First they came for the studio musicians, and I did nothing, because I'm not a studio musician.
> Then they came for the composer to image, and I did nothing because I'm not a composer to image.
> Then they came for me (library composer), and there's was no one left to fight them.
> :wink:



LOL. Good one.

Someone wrote that music libraries are the future. But I think it's already there. If looked at the future pessimistically, certain sample libraries that I shall not name offer tools that allow non musicians to do the low level stuff often required in great quality by hitting some keys. Then I guess if you want to do music, you should create tools (libraries) for film producers they can use easily.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 18, 2014)

doctornine @ Fri Jan 17 said:


> Greg @ Fri Jan 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Adapt or get squashed.
> ...



Well actually quite a few of us attempted to explore this from different perspectives and nuances without any whinging, but the whinging always provokes a reaction. C'est la vie (he whinged).


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## doctornine (Jan 18, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> First they came for the studio musicians, and I did nothing, because I'm not a studio musician.
> Then they came for the composer to image, and I did nothing because I'm not a composer to image.
> Then they came for me (library composer), and there's was no one left to fight them.
> :wink:



I am put in mind of a point way back in the mists if the early 90's when I made an attempt to join the Musicians Union.

What do you play they asked.

Why, I use a computer and a sampler.

As you can imagine, the Union rep's response verged on nuclear detonation and needless to say I received a lengthy lecture about using samplers to take work away from union members who were "real" musicians :wink:


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 18, 2014)

Hey Ned, c'mon in, the water's fine! Good thing we let the boss spring for the new jacuzzi...


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## Cruciform (Jan 18, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> Hey Ned, c'mon in, the water's fine! Good thing we let the boss spring for the new jacuzzi...



Since we're going OT, the slowly boiling frog story is a myth.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 18, 2014)

The cartoon is OT? I don't want to derail this thread. I would delete, but since you quoted, I won't.

Anyhow, I'm repeating myself. I'll come back to check on this discussion when I'm looking for library work in a year or two. :lol:


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## Cruciform (Jan 18, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> I'll come back to check on this discussion when I'm looking for library work in a year or two. :lol:



We'll be here. But then again, we may have lost all our work to a 10 year old with a program that can create rules from existing cues and spit out new ones that are even better. :mrgreen:

Ps. Your cartoon isn't really OT. I couldn't think of the word I wanted - brain has turned to mush since becoming a parent.


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## AC986 (Jan 18, 2014)

Peter Alexander @ Fri Jan 17 said:


> I think it's worth noting that Bernard Herrmann made most of his money with the libraries he recorded for CBS. And Herrmann still scored films and did other work.
> 
> So I don't see this as either/or but both/and. I do library music now and it gives me the opportunity to go into different directions and not be hampered by extreme deadlines. If someone wants to hire/commission me - my bank account is available.



That's exactly right and you can find some of those library scores he did on Youtube. And so did Jerry Goldsmith.

What I at least, am sensing, maybe incorrectly so far here is an overriding view that somehow library is, will and has to be somehow inferior quality. Of course a lot of it is poor quality either as well written, well produced, and so on. That of course is another musicians subjective opinion. Certainly not, as Ron pointed out earlier as in 'what about the audience?' The inference from that is bespoke music for a tv/film is somehow not. That is total bollocks as everyone knows.

Audiences tend not to get either subjective or objective either way about quality or production standards. They either like or accept something like music in a program or film almost on a subliminal level. I do in fact. I don't sit there worrying too much about the music. I worry about the film.
Most of us deal in personal likes. Ask any layman if he/she thought the music was well produced and technically good writing and see what you get.

Sit next to your non musician wife or whatever on the sofa in the evening while any film is playing and suddenly halfway through spring the question on them 'what do you think of the music in this?' Huh? will be the general response.

Where they become really useful, more so than anything else, is they can tell you if they like what you're doing or not. That's more useful than any musician to musician because musicians that write music weigh in with a huge amount of baggage and mental scarring from past experience.


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## Daryl (Jan 18, 2014)

adriancook @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> What I at least, am sensing, maybe incorrectly so far here is an overriding view that somehow library is, will and has to be somehow inferior quality. Of course a lot of it is poor quality either as well written, well produced, and so on. That of course is another musicians subjective opinion. Certainly not, as Ron pointed out earlier as in 'what about the audience?' The inference from that is bespoke music for a tv/film is somehow not. That is total bollocks as everyone knows.


I think it's the opposite. Some people are finally waking up to the fact that library can be better written, better produced and performed and cheaper than anything that they can do themselves, and that their up-until-now cushy existence is under threat. I see it as a re-alignment. If the bespoke composer can't do a substantially better job, then the project should be library. If they can do a better job, then it shouldn't be library. So even if there are fewer custom gigs for some composers, the idea that they will disappear altogether is nonsense.

Of course some people will lose their living, but others will flourish. There is no right or wrong as to which group is more important. Whilst of course I sympathise with people who are having trouble finding work that they like, and are forced into to doing work that they don't really want to do, that is a fact of life.

D


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## AC986 (Jan 18, 2014)

Daryl @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> Whilst of course I sympathise with people who are having trouble finding work that they like, and are forced into to doing work that they don't really want to do, that is a fact of life.
> 
> D



It is a fact of life. And it's fact of life in many other professions. It is unfortunate as I myself have found out over the years.


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## Daryl (Jan 18, 2014)

doctornine @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> I am put in mind of a point way back in the mists if the early 90's when I made an attempt to join the Musicians Union.
> 
> What do you play they asked.
> 
> ...


Of course that happened. Unions are there to stick up for their members in order to increase membership and thereby increase their power and clout. As a computer and sample user, at best you could only be described as "management".

D


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 18, 2014)

Daryl @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> Some people are finally waking up to the fact that library can be better written, better produced and performed and cheaper than anything that they can do themselves, and that their up-until-now cushy existence is under threat. I see it as a re-alignment. If the bespoke composer can't do a substantially better job, then the project should be library. If they can do a better job, then it shouldn't be library. So even if there are fewer custom gigs for some composers, the idea that they will disappear altogether is nonsense.



I appreciate that I do appear to be entirely talking to myself in this thread (hey, why stop now), but here's what I wrote a couple of pages ago on this very subject:



Guy Rowland @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> 7. For drama, library music is very rarely better than true scoring to picture, even if the production values of the latter are lower than the former. Good library music will give an instant production value hit, but editing to match a scene that will in all likelihood deviate from the music's own journey is tiresome at best and usually pretty disastrous (and boy I've tried in the past). Even if using stock sample libraries, if the composition itself is decent and the composer can tell a story, it'll serve picture better. Good producers and directors know this.



Its the storytelling. It's much easier to tell a coherent written story if you're writing it from scratch than cutting and pasting other people's sentences together from all over the place, even if those sentences themselves are beautifully written. Same with music.

nb - this really only applies to drama, not doccos, reality TV etc.


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## Daryl (Jan 18, 2014)

Guy, I agree with that 100%, as long as the composer is good. If not, there is a limit to how far a few drones and stock loops can get you, before they start to destroy the quality of the project.

D


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## AC986 (Jan 18, 2014)

I agree 100% too with Guy on the drama. 

I watched a BBC drama fairly recently that must have cost. It was a remake of a well known Hitchcock film actually and the music was an awful drone all the way through. Well all the way through 20 minutes in my case until I switched it off. Most times though, the written to film/tv music to dramas works well because of the timings.

More and more you are seeing in the end credits music by [insert library company name here]


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 18, 2014)

Daryl @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> Guy, I agree with that 100%, as long as the composer is good. If not, there is a limit to how far a few drones and stock loops can get you, before they start to destroy the quality of the project.
> 
> D



Absolutely. In a sense, stock loops are kinda like library music in a way, with the same problems in use - can you smoothly integrate them into the whole?

What's interesting to me though is I'd take a score which has been written to picture using sample libraries (used well) than generic cues with a real orchestra. Pushes the moral problems elsewhere of course. [TANGENT] Wonder if anyone on principle uses only sample libraries where the musicians are on royalties, such as Spitfire and CineSamples?[/TANGENT]

There are, of course, films which tinker with these rules such as Inception (which, while written specifically by HZ, wasn't scored to picture) or The Social Network.


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## Synesthesia (Jan 18, 2014)

Daryl @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> doctornine @ Sat Jan 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I am put in mind of a point way back in the mists if the early 90's when I made an attempt to join the Musicians Union.
> ...



This is interesting.. Its something I haven't looked at properly for a long time now, but is there no welcome for composers from the MU these days?

What if your main 'instrument' is a pencil and manuscript, would the MU still send you away with a flea in your ear?


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## Daryl (Jan 18, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> This is interesting.. Its something I haven't looked at properly for a long time now, but is there no welcome for composers from the MU these days?
> 
> What if your main 'instrument' is a pencil and manuscript, would the MU still send you away with a flea in your ear?


TBH I think it depends on who you ask and what you want. I left the Union when the company I worked for went bust and because I was the Music Director, and conductor, I was considered management, so the Union didn't include me in the musician payments. Of course they had been happy to take my money for 15 years. :wink: 

Edit: Thinking about it, things could get rather complicated if there was a dispute between the composer and musicians, because the composer would be considered to be the employer.

D


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## syashdown (Jan 18, 2014)

Daryl @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> adriancook @ Sat Jan 18 said:
> 
> 
> > What I at least, am sensing, maybe incorrectly so far here is an overriding view that somehow library is, will and has to be somehow inferior quality. Of course a lot of it is poor quality either as well written, well produced, and so on. That of course is another musicians subjective opinion. Certainly not, as Ron pointed out earlier as in 'what about the audience?' The inference from that is bespoke music for a tv/film is somehow not. That is total bollocks as everyone knows.
> ...



I agree that from my perspective I have been saying that library music is good not bad. However I wouldn't say any perceived threat is because the music is better than mine, particularly given the fact that it is generic by nature in style and it's sync to picture. More that as the quality of library gets better, the distinction in value of a custom score becomes less clear to the executives - resulting in budgets being cut for bespoke scores. Now, as I've stated before, it's not impacted me directly thus far, in fact I've got more and more work coming in due to the fact that I am offering much more to the directors and producers. Not only are they really happy with the music, but also my contribution to helping them understand how the music can work with the film, providing ideas outside of the temp (which they like), acting professionally and with integrity in the creation of the score and just being generally good fun to collaborate with. Still many of the producers/directors I speak to say they are really having to battle with the execs to get bespoke scores and they're trying to squash budgets more and more as the value of music has been diminished to them by blanket licenses with companies like Audio Networks. Many of them will say that the library music in and of itself is good but it doesn't have the overall elegance of a sound world created purely for their film and they also keep hearing the same tracks everywhere. 

It seems that a number of people on here like to perceive the discussion of this situation as 'whinging' by spoilt composers worried about their jobs, unable to share the concern because they write library music and it doesn't effect their earnings. However I'm quite interested in what people's thoughts are on the impact to the industry (the films, the value of custom music, the understanding of scoring to picture as an artform, the relationship between director and composer) rather than whether someone such as myself needs to think about getting a new job. I'm not so concerned about my position, I have confidence in what I do, but a concern for scoring to picture asan artform and a loss of many of those opportunities for people like me who care about composing in this medium.


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## rgames (Jan 18, 2014)

syashdown @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> I'm quite interested in what people's thoughts are on the impact to the industry ... and a loss of many of those opportunities for people like me who care about composing in this medium.


The question of impact on the industry has been answered. And there's no loss of opportunity - there's more opportunity than ever.

It sounds like what you're really saying is that you wish more people liked what you like. Well, maybe they don't. Even though you and I might prefer an artistically crafted piece of music written specifically to a moving image, most people don't care, and they vote with their dollars.

Again, go back to the audience. Go generate the demand for what you like. Talking to composers, producers, directors, actors, etc. is of no use. Convince the audience, then the money will follow. Economics 101!

rgames


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## syashdown (Jan 18, 2014)

rgames @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> syashdown @ Sat Jan 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm quite interested in what people's thoughts are on the impact to the industry ... and a loss of many of those opportunities for people like me who care about composing in this medium.
> ...



Sure. I'm just responding to those that think that the notion of this conversation must imply complaining or whinging. 

Yes, that's a good point. I wonder if the the general public used to care about these things and now don't? Or they've never really cared and the executives are only just now cottoning on and realising they don't need to spend on this stuff because most people wont notice?


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 18, 2014)

rgames @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> Again, go back to the audience. Go generate the demand for what you like. Talking to composers, producers, directors, actors, etc. is of no use. Convince the audience, then the money will follow. Economics 101!



Richard - this is nonsense. The general audience aren't expected to deconstruct a movie or show. They never have, they never will. We don't ask them to vote for their favourite cinematographer or production designer. Or composer. I can't see any logic in your argument whatsoever.

We work to producers and directors. Its they we should turn to, not the audience.


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## AC986 (Jan 18, 2014)

I don't know when you have a memory of seeing your first film? I remember going to see films soon after the war and they were known as Saturday Morning Pictures. Did anyone worry about the music? They did if it was a musical.

Other than that, the audiences only subliminally, myself included, noticed how the level of action and pace was increased or decreased, or is this moment happy or sad and so on.

The only times when you really as an audience might notice anything out of the ordinary with film music is just that. Something that is suddenly out of the ordinary as in very original. It's rare that audiences talked about the music years ago. Ones that instantly spring to mind could be Ennio Moriconne's western scores or Herrmanns screaming scores. Goldsmith made an impact with Planet of the Apes and everyone remembers John Barry for just about everything.

What any of this has to do with library music I have no idea.


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## syashdown (Jan 18, 2014)

Guy - I suppose Richard's point applies more to TV than film? Even if the audience didn't aim to specifically deconstruct a major film or drama series, they would feel something wasn't quite right if the score had a selection of library music from various sources which could possibly contribute to bad box office/ratings. However for a large number of TV shows a selection of library music wouldn't feel wrong for the viewer and they wouldn't lose any ratings over it. So if execs discover that having a bespoke score is not a necessity for the program to work they will cut that expense. 

Another thought, as much as there is a proliferation in music there is a much larger number of directors and producers. So while being 'in' with the director used to mean something, they now have less say in the matter as their role is perceived as less important/ more easily replaceable.


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## Arbee (Jan 18, 2014)

Without wishing to drown the debate in analogies, isn't "library v custom-composed" similar in some ways to "preset v make you own sound" on a synth or processing plug in? You have an idea in mind and sometimes a preset just jumps out at you as a perfect fit, other times you have to do it yourself. I just see this as part of evolution, and the tools are available to everyone. So, in a skilled composer's hands the cream still rises to the top, the tools only raise the baseline.

For TV or film however, consistency of approach and sound really glues things together so it's unlikely you'll get library music to give you that. You see so many patchwork productions where they simply throw whatever they can find for that spot. Makes the whole thing very trashy IMO.

.


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## Daryl (Jan 18, 2014)

syashdown @ Sun Jan 19 said:


> Guy - I suppose Richard's point applies more to TV than film? Even if the audience didn't aim to specifically deconstruct a major film or drama series, they would feel something wasn't quite right if the score had a selection of library music from various sources which could possibly contribute to bad box office/ratings.


Many movies have a huge amount of licenced music, and that isn't a problem for an audience. The only real difference is where a particular cue needs to support drama, and it is not a one mood cue. For TV there are many 1 mood cues. These could work with library music equally well as a custom score.

However, I agree that it might be strange to hear a well known library cue on a feature, but as we have heard many cues that are ripped from other music, some of them a direct lift, it wouldn't be the first time. :wink: 

D


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## impressions (Jan 18, 2014)

Daryl @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> adriancook @ Sat Jan 18 said:
> 
> 
> > What I at least, am sensing, maybe incorrectly so far here is an overriding view that somehow library is, will and has to be somehow inferior quality. Of course a lot of it is poor quality either as well written, well produced, and so on. That of course is another musicians subjective opinion. Certainly not, as Ron pointed out earlier as in 'what about the audience?' The inference from that is bespoke music for a tv/film is somehow not. That is total bollocks as everyone knows.
> ...



you are missing the point, producer and audience don't care about custom music. they just want something that generically fits. and that's exactly how everything is sounds now. generic. because its cheaper. thats including the biggest productions, especially in hollywood series.

yes there will always composers who do costume, I still do and a lot more does still. 
but there is less caring about being unique or being loyal to the artistic side of the project. because its cheaper to use library, and it "kinda" fits. as I said very few are quintin tarntino, that can take songs and fit them artistically to the picture so well.

when have you heard a really good theme lately? that doesnt sound like the next one in its genre? john williams was responsible for "the time tunnel" for example. unique, perfect to the picture. who does that or cares these days?


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## Andrew Aversa (Jan 19, 2014)

This is a great topic.

However, I'm a bit surprised nobody has talked much about video games & video game music. It's highly relevant to this topic because in the game industry, library music is virtually never used. Source / custom licensed music sometimes, but for almost all games (from indie to AAA), you will hear original scores. Not to mention, the diversity in game soundtracks is pretty incredible. If you compare award-nominated scores in a single year, you'll hear a wide range from orchestral to electronic, rock, country, fusion, etc.

There is also enormous opportunity in this industry. To put it in perspective, U.S. box office revenues were $10.71 billion in 2012. The game industry clocked in at $14.8 billion that same year - and it's growing much faster. Not to mention games have a global audience compared with film/TV. China's box office revenues in 2012 were $3.6 billion, whereas they consumed nearly $10 billion in games. 

I agree that library music is proliferating rapidly throughout the TV industry (it's omnipresent on cable networks) and that DOES impact our rates. Perhaps the same will happen with film. But the game industry is a shining beacon of originality when it comes to the musical landscape. Not to mention, even Kickstarted indie games can frequently afford not just original music, but *live orchestra* as well, if not just session musicians at a bare minimum. Look to composers like Austin Wintory (grammy nominated!) as an example


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 19, 2014)

Andrew - great point. I've never gone down the video game route - I presume that because all the different elements have to flow seamlessly, library music just doesn't cut it? And of course its a perfect example of how some sectors of the industry constrict, others expand.

Simon - In terms of drama, I'm not sure I see too much of a difference between film and TV really. Both are incredibly broad of course in terms of how music is used. One good thing about this third golden era of TV is that the production values of top end TV are very high, and afaik pretty much all the notable big series are properly scored. I like to think that the trickle down effect applies - those aspiring to this level of quality will be aware of how those shows are put together. Wannabe Vince Gilligans will be looking for wannabe Dave Porters.


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## doctornine (Jan 19, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> This is interesting.. Its something I haven't looked at properly for a long time now, but is there no welcome for composers from the MU these days?
> 
> What if your main 'instrument' is a pencil and manuscript, would the MU still send you away with a flea in your ear?



Nah, now they just want your subscription fee.....


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## Daryl (Jan 19, 2014)

impressions @ Sun Jan 19 said:


> Daryl @ Sun Jan 19 said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's the opposite. Some people are finally waking up to the fact that library can be better written, better produced and performed and cheaper than anything that they can do themselves, and that their up-until-now cushy existence is under threat. I see it as a re-alignment. If the bespoke composer can't do a substantially better job, then the project should be library. If they can do a better job, then it shouldn't be library. So even if there are fewer custom gigs for some composers, the idea that they will disappear altogether is nonsense.
> ...


Surely if producers don't care about artistry, the film won't be very good? If that is the case, why would you want to score it?

BTW licensing in a song is not cheaper than getting someone to write a background music cue. :wink: 

D


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## AC986 (Jan 19, 2014)

If there's one thing I hate more than anything these days when I'm watching a film is having to hear the directors record collection. Scorcese comes to mind. Can't stand it.


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## syashdown (Jan 19, 2014)

zircon_st @ Sun Jan 19 said:


> This is a great topic.
> 
> However, I'm a bit surprised nobody has talked much about video games & video game music. It's highly relevant to this topic because in the game industry, library music is virtually never used. Source / custom licensed music sometimes, but for almost all games (from indie to AAA), you will hear original scores. Not to mention, the diversity in game soundtracks is pretty incredible. If you compare award-nominated scores in a single year, you'll hear a wide range from orchestral to electronic, rock, country, fusion, etc.
> 
> ...



Thanks for bringing that into the discussion. Yes, computer games are a really interesting area from this perspective. I've been watching a lot of working coming out of the games studios and have been very impressed - Austin Wintory's score for Journey was quite sublime. As the technology is evolving and allowing for increasingly immersive experiences custom scoring is becoming a necessity for many projects, particularly as the music needs to be responsive to the dynamics of the game. I would love to get involved in game scores and have had my eye on it for a while, however its not really my circle of contacts as I'm not a gamer myself. I love games and am really inspired by whats happening in the scene but I daren't own a console as I barely have enough time with work and family commitments as it is!  Its interesting that even kickstarted funded games are getting orchestral scores, thats just fantastic. Kickstarter is another thread in this conversation, this is another avenue for projects that might want bespoke scores as the projects tend to be labours of love rather than profit driven ventures.



Guy Rowland @ Sun Jan 19 said:


> Simon - In terms of drama, I'm not sure I see too much of a difference between film and TV really. Both are incredibly broad of course in terms of how music is used. One good thing about this third golden era of TV is that the production values of top end TV are very high, and afaik pretty much all the notable big series are properly scored. I like to think that the trickle down effect applies - those aspiring to this level of quality will be aware of how those shows are put together. Wannabe Vince Gilligans will be looking for wannabe Dave Porters.



Yes, I agree with you on the drama side of things, which I did say in my post...



syashdown @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> Guy - I suppose Richard's point applies more to TV than film? Even if the audience didn't aim to specifically deconstruct a major film or *drama series*, they would feel something wasn't quite right if the score had a selection of library music from various sources which could possibly contribute to bad box office/ratings.



...I still think what Richard was saying applies to a large percentage of tv shows that are ultimately profit driven ventures.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 19, 2014)

syashdown @ Sun Jan 19 said:


> syashdown @ Sat Jan 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy - I suppose Richard's point applies more to TV than film? Even if the audience didn't aim to specifically deconstruct a major film or *drama series*, they would feel something wasn't quite right if the score had a selection of library music from various sources which could possibly contribute to bad box office/ratings.
> ...



Yes - I don't think the wider audience would know it was because generic music was used, but just that in some way the whole didn't float their boat so much. 

Anyone know of any significant TV dramas that regularly use library? I can think of at least one that uses a little stockpile of their own regular themes rather than being scored, which was the Danish series The Killing. IMO the show suffered from it, but all round I found the direction, characters and production values pretty pedestrian next to the fellow Scandanavian series The Bridge (series 2 now showing in the UK - excellent). It was a shame in the case of The Killing, cos the main theme became quite iconic and was great, I wish Frans Bax had the opportunity to score originally for each show.

Minor tangent - does anyone know of Adam Curtis' documentaries (such as The Power of Nightmares or The Trap?). He's a very idiosyncratic filmmaker, and its quite the most bizarre use of music I've ever heard. At the start of the series it sounds like he choses between 6 and 8 different library tracks, all quite different from each other and fairly idiosyncratic. Then he uses them totally at random, loud in the mix, to the exclusion of everything else, with no regard as to what would conventionally be appropriate. He does the same thing to a lesser extent with stock archive footage. Together with his mesmeric and complex narration and fractured logic, the whole effect is like being brainwashed.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 19, 2014)

There is simply no doubt that while the high end composers will continue to thrive and those at the bottom will continue to be unable to make a living as a composer, the library onslaught is destroying the possibility of a career as a "middle class compose to picture" composer..

Not going to weigh in on good/bad as it is pointless because it is what it is, but that it is what is happening is to my mind indisputable.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 19, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jan 19 said:


> There is simply no doubt that while the high end composers will continue to thrive and those at the bottom will continue to be unable to make a living as a composer, the library onslaught is destroying the possibility of a career as a "middle class compose to picture" composer..
> 
> Not going to weigh in on good/bad as it is pointless because it is what it is, but that it is what is happening is to my mind indisputable.



That seems wildly OTT, Jay. Any evidence that this is happening on anything more than a sporadic scale? In fact, interested in hearing of ANY specific TV drama or feature of a moderate budget that uses exclusively library music and no composer (excluding features that mainly use commercial music by stylistic choice, Tarantino-style). Maybe there are a few I don't know about, but I'd be astonished if it represented an inevitable demise.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 19, 2014)

Not scientific and maybe US centric, but every composer in LA I talk to is losing jobs that in the past they might well have been hired for to the response of "We have decided to just go with library music."


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 19, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jan 19 said:


> Not scientific and maybe US centric, but every composer in LA I talk to is losing jobs that in the past they might well have been hired for to the response of "We have decided to just go with library music."



But is that drama? It's pretty common in other genres I agree. I'd love a few show / film names - or one - to gauge how it works.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 19, 2014)

I can't do that without possibly embarrassing people. Anyway, I am not emotionally invested in convincing anyone, just stating what I believe is common knowledge in LA.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 19, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jan 19 said:


> I can't do that without possibly embarrassing people. Anyway, I am not emotionally invested in convincing anyone, just stating what I believe is common knowledge in LA.



Really? I mean just the names of TV dramas or films that exclusively use library... not sure how that embarrasses anyone?

(BTW, I think I phrased my last badly... when I say drama, I mean TV drama, as opposed to documentary, reality TV, sitcom etc. So films of any genre, or TV drama).


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## AC986 (Jan 19, 2014)

BBC don't do a lot of drama these days. I don't see any evidence of terrestrial channels getting into much of that. The BBC used to do drama all the time but their money is tied up in their news channels.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 19, 2014)

adriancook @ Sun Jan 19 said:


> BBC don't do a lot of drama these days. I don't see any evidence of terrestrial channels getting into much of that. The BBC used to do drama all the time but their money is tied up in their news channels.



Oh Adrian, where do you get these figures? Can I guess?

In 2009/2010, the drama budget was £102.5m - http://www.nao.org.uk/report/the-bbcs-m ... ing-drama/

In 2013/2014 the BBC1 drama budget is increased by £20m, BBC2 was increased by £30m in 2012 - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvan ... casts.html

By contrast, the BBC News channel was £57m in 2012 - http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablo ... c-spending

Roughly double for drama, then. (apologies for being off topic - Adrian, perhaps a new thread on BBC budgets if you wish to discuss further?)


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## impressions (Jan 19, 2014)

Daryl @ Sun Jan 19 said:


> Surely if producers don't care about artistry, the film won't be very good? If that is the case, why would you want to score it?
> 
> BTW licensing in a song is not cheaper than getting someone to write a background music cue. :wink:
> 
> D



1. yes. but it will sell and spread its moderate use of music VS score to the rest of the world. most big budgeted hollywood movies use library music, CSI is using it for sure, and, almost anything by brukheimer? 

anyone writing for libraries are joining the evolution to stop score to picture. the directors are using cues just like in reality shows, where there is no time to write scores. they take the cues and use the accents to fit with the edit. the "film composer" will be reserved to indies with budgets/upper end, or composers that work like now, with no sustainable future, committing suicide for the sake of their career choice. 

there is no point arguing, because none of us can bring figures(later on I'm sure we will, after most middle-class composers will be gone).

BTW i'm working in the lower end of video games(browser and mobiles) and sound effects are mostly my work, there is always demand for custom sounds, but much less demand for music, because you just need to listen to random playlist and find the most fitting, pay about 0.01 of what you would pay for a medium composer.

there are much more games than before, everyday on linkedin there is 2-10 new startup game companies.
but the business model has definitely changed because of libraries. if you think its a matter of belief, you just didn't experience it yourself. especially guys that only work on libraries and haven't tried it themselves.


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## AC986 (Jan 19, 2014)

So Ariel what exactly do you want to happen?


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## impressions (Jan 19, 2014)

nothing. because nothing I say or do will make libraries be any fair to composers. since the ones calling the shots aren't the composers. its the producers/direcotrs/developers. the ones that are in competition with libraries will disappear, just like the animals are being extinct.

there is nothing, simply nothing we can do about it. unless composers won't work for libraries, ever. and pull back all their tracks.

but if that's a major income I can't ask them to give up their jobs. as with you and Daryl and jonathan. besides, you are probably good musicians.

so it will just eat itself up. I just want us to be aware of this, and not paint the truth in pretty colours like its for the better. 

we don't control anything. we are just slaves. that's how what is happening in this profession or with any evolution. it can't be stopped. if we had a more global vision we would act differently, much differently. and the result would be also.

nope, its too late already. alot of us, including me, wasn't aware of the impact of various factors on the market. like a fixed price? why accountants have standard pricing and freelance composer don't? I mean, he can have one-but no one else will follow this. we are just musicians trying to make a buck with our art. we can't think too much ahead, there is already enough things to worry about.


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## Daryl (Jan 19, 2014)

impressions @ Sun Jan 19 said:


> there is nothing, simply nothing we can do about it. unless composers won't work for libraries, ever. and pull back all their tracks.
> 
> but if that's a major income I can't ask them to give up their jobs. as with you and Daryl and jonathan. besides, you are probably good musicians.


You assume it's all about income. Have you considered that some people don't want to write background music to film?

D


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 19, 2014)

Daryl @ 19/1/2014 said:


> You assume it's all about income. Have you considered that some people don't want to write background music to film?
> 
> D



Well the OP was referring to the 'industry', and I would suppose he meant one in which music is bought to be used with image. And if the people you mention don't want to write background music to film, which is absolutely fine, I suppose that they still want the music to be eventually bought/rented for use with images, or else why even bring up composers who have no interest in the industry as examples in this particular thread?


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## AC986 (Jan 19, 2014)

Ariel send your tracks to music libraries and get them picked up. Then when you not writing specifically to film, in that downtime, you can do library work and build up a library track portfolio. It will keep you busy and it's good practise.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 19, 2014)

adriancook @ 19/1/2014 said:


> Ariel send your tracks to music libraries and get them picked up.



Questions:

- Is it as hard to get a successful library producer to listen to your tracks as it is when it comes to getting film/tv producers to lend your work an ear? Or do they have more time for such solicitations, seeing as, unlike film/tv producers, they 'only' have to produce more music libraries as opposed to overseeing a multi-disciplinary project?

- No upfront payment, I suppose?

- Are royalties split 50/50?

- Can you get/ask for a copy of the cue sheet when your work is used in scene/show?

- How do you build your career when no one sees your name on any of the credits? On a related note, I know that in some cases, royalty organizations use the visual credits on a show/film to look for their composers when they don't have a cue sheet. This will not be possible when the credit is: XYZZ Library


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## AC986 (Jan 19, 2014)

Daryl and Jonathan know a lot more than I do.

But what know is

#1 it's easy to get them to listen but it's hard to get onboard if they have the styles you send in covered. Some of the libraries are quite protective of their composers but are always looking for something they don't have.

#2 I don't and l believe there might be some that do.

#3 50/50 seems the norm.

#4 Yes

#5 Personally I don't worry about that.


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## kdm (Jan 19, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jan 19 said:


> Not scientific and maybe US centric, but every composer in LA I talk to is losing jobs that in the past they might well have been hired for to the response of "We have decided to just go with library music."



This isn't just in LA. I'm seeing national ad requests going for under $10k, before publisher splits. Major companies, major campaigns (one I'm pretty sure will be a Superbowl ad). These are ads that would have commanded $25-60k and a custom score contract a few years ago. Now they are cattle call placement requests going out to dozens of publishers and libraries for $10k or less. 

But I'm not sure that's the worst of it. First, it seems agencies and clients have figured out it's cheaper to send out calls for music to a bunch of libraries with pitch requests than to hire a composer up front. That's when an unfortunate circumstance becomes a trend that eventually becomes a standard. And second, I have a suspicion there are licensing companies skimming most of the licensing fees off the top and sending out cattle call requests to other libraries and publishers with the $10k teaser budgets. There are so many libraries and licensing companies now that there is only one way to compete - lower price. And these are semi-custom gigs - clients sending out video to score to. Not just clients looking for a quicker "grab a library track" solution. 

So, from my personal experience, and not speculation, library music is in fact having a very negative impact on the composing industry at large. I know some will argue that it only affects corporate and lower end markets, but that just is not the case in reality. I wish it were not true, but there's really no point in denying it anymore if we are to survive as a collective profession, excluding a few at the very top of the film market. 

An over-saturated mass-market sales approach will always be driven by price, and that's where libraries are. Even the top libraries will eventually have to cut their rates and start accepting lower license fees just to survive.

[edit]
Just wanted to add that this makes composing for a living that much harder. It might seem great that pretty much anyone can land a decent placement now, but that isn't a business model to build a career off of. It's playing the lottery on a daily basis hoping your number gets drawn often enough, or you land a big payday to pay the bills. Doesn't work. Too many library composers don't do this for their income, and think it's great to land this or that placement. Those that do make a living started years ago, when it was viable.

Building a career is about relationships, repeat clients, and building a reputation that keeps the work coming in. There was a time when that could work with libraries as well. Now libraries put all of the risk, expense, and losses in the composer's lap. It should never have been more than a way to earn extra income on existing material. Now it's replacing all of those paths to a more stable career with a non-existent career path.


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## rgames (Jan 19, 2014)

There are folks on this board with a lot more library experience than I have, but here's my take:



Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Jan 19 said:


> - Is it as hard to get a successful library producer to listen to your tracks as it is when it comes to getting film/tv producers to lend your work an ear?


Yes, unless you have tens of thousands of YouTube subscribers. Then they pay a lot more attention.



> - No upfront payment, I suppose?


Depends - I don't work with any of the high-end libraries but I have gotten $500 - $1000 for a typical 3 min track w/ all virtual instruments. I assume the higher you go, the better the up-front is. Mostly, though, there's no up-front - it's all back end.



> - Are royalties split 50/50?


Yes on royalties. License fee is usually 50/50 though 60/40 is common, too. Some libraries give you a fixed fee every time you get a placement (along with performance royalties, of course). There are many different models in use.



> - Can you get/ask for a copy of the cue sheet when your work is used in scene/show?


Probably, though I've never done it. I started using TuneSat this year to get a feel for how many placements are missed. (Haven't found any yet, waste of money so far...)



> - How do you build your career when no one sees your name on any of the credits?


Just like you do anywhere else - build a network of people who want your music.

Writing library music is not for someone who wants to write for picture. Writing library music can be just about anything else, though. Some guys write tracks that are in a style that's hot, particularly in the ad world. Some guys have bands or are solo acts who mainly tour and sell CD's but submit to libraries to see if they can get some extra cash from their music. Some guys just go into the studio and screw around for a few hours a day then send the fruits of their labors off to libraries when something decent emerges from the noodling.

A lot of my library tracks are arrangements for clarinet with strings/guitar/etc. How many directors/producers would I have to know in order to find the ones who need that? A lot - there's no way I could network enough to get those tracks out there for film/TV placements. By submitting them to libraries, though, my network increases exponentially and people pick them up. There's one of my arrangements coming up in the film "One Chance" by director David Frankel (The Devil Wears Prada). So, because of the growth of music libraries, I'm able to write the music I like and make money from it.

That's the point of library music: it can be whatever you want *except* writing specifically for picture (sometimes you get requests for picture-specific edits of a library track, but not often). Libraries are basically market makers. They collect the music from guys like me and handle the networking and distribution so we can just make music. No hard deadlines, no idiot directors to put up with, no producers to squeeze pennies from your budget. Pretty good gig, really!

The flip side of that, of course, is that because there's so much flexibility, a *lot* of people do it. There are basically no barriers to entry, so a lot of people enter.

rgames


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## AC986 (Jan 19, 2014)

A lot of it is album based to make it easier for buyers to find a choice of the same style. So you might be writing 12 plus tracks of the same style, so you need to be comfortable with that. Actually memo to self, why do I do this. Anyway.

I can no longer just send in anything. I get asked for a specific style/ genre and I have to adhere to that or it gets rejected. Then there is getting the timing, the obvious thing being segmented into 30/60secs and so on. And then you have to do your best on the sound and production which is obviously a given


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 19, 2014)

Thank you for that great reply, Richard. I will say, though, that in my nearly-20 years of working to image, I have rarely met an idiot director. They may be this or that, but they are usually pretty bright, very passionate and, maybe in my case at least, actually nice enough to become friends.

PS: I suppose this unfolding situation will finally push me to update my FAQ for writing for film and tv. I'm guessing it's going to be a lot shorter, and quite different. :?


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 20, 2014)

kdm @ Sun Jan 19 said:


> Just wanted to add that this makes composing for a living that much harder. It might seem great that pretty much anyone can land a decent placement now, but that isn't a business model to build a career off of. It's playing the lottery on a daily basis hoping your number gets drawn often enough, or you land a big payday to pay the bills. Doesn't work. Too many library composers don't do this for their income, and think it's great to land this or that placement. Those that do make a living started years ago, when it was viable.
> 
> Building a career is about relationships, repeat clients, and building a reputation that keeps the work coming in. There was a time when that could work with libraries as well. Now libraries put all of the risk, expense, and losses in the composer's lap. It should never have been more than a way to earn extra income on existing material. Now it's replacing all of those paths to a more stable career with a non-existent career path.



Totally agree about relationships etc. I see the library thing differently though (bearing in mind I've never written for library - this is just from conversation with those who do, successfully). I think the key is volume. If you have 1 library track, you're right - it's pot luck and you can't base a career on it. But the more you have, the more that changes. If you have 500 tracks Out There, things average out. Of course there will be some fluctuations, but I can well believe that a good library composer can earn a solid living from that alone if they work hard.

Yesterday I was filling in info from the dub for cue sheets for last minute changes. There's a few libraries I often go to first - KPM, Megatrax, Music House, Juice, Ded Good. And as I'm filling in the info, I sometimes notice the same names appearing again and again, even across different libraries - they seem to have a knack for producing tracks that just work. Emily Taylor, you owe me whoever and wherever you are...


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## AC986 (Jan 20, 2014)

I said it earlier. It's a numbers game. Same as stock photography.

Think about why tracks get 'borrowed' and put in their library sites by unscrupulous individuals. They are just bolstering up their numbers. The more you have, the more chance you have of your tracks getting used around the world. It's less of a cottage industry than it sounds today.
It's a very different game to writing specifically, BUT if I had to give out any advice to anyone wanting to have a go at library work, I would suggest doing it to films/tv/adverts/paintings/just about any image that is useful ( use YouTube and turn down the volume) and gives you ideas. After all, that is what is eventually going to happen to the music. It's also a good idea to listen to what is going on in the background when just sitting watching tv.
Film/tv score writers do this all the time either consciously or otherwise.


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## rJames (Jan 21, 2014)

Actually •••caution sarcasm ahead••• the real threat to the music industry is the impact of the connectivity that the internet provides so that composers from around the world can compete with the composers who live here in LA.

If there weren't so many composers from countries around the world where the cost of living isn't nearly as high as in LA competing for the same jobs in film and TV, we could charge a higher rate AND probably be in the running for many more jobs.

Can you imagine the impact even on musicians who are competing with orchestras that are recorded remotely from LA but are based in Prague or elsewhere around the world.

*The internet has ruined film music.* Why should we in LA have to lower our rates just so that we can compete with people who's cost of living is half of ours.

Its not fair. :cry:


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jan 21, 2014)

rgames, 

It works both ways. I do not get paid in dollars but all the equipment and sample libraries are sold in pounds or dollars in the west where people earn in this currency. 

Everything is super expensive and our income in countries like India are not comparable to LA or London. Still, we have to put down the money and be happy with less.

In the last two years alone, I could have saved a minimum of $20,000 had I not bought any new plug ins or software. 

Same goes with computers, I have to shell out $2000 extra for a computer that anyone in the west will get for less. And the same goes for peripheral prices at times. 

We do not have direct access to many things and have to import a lot of the stuff. 

Its getting easier and I can see India and China as big markets for companies, now that they are not doing well in Europe etc. So, it will get cheaper I think. 

When I went to a shop in London two years ago to pick up a Prophet-08, most of the branches did not have it in display. So, I could not try it. There was only one shop and when I asked them why they did not have more in stock or display - they said, I was the first one interested in the unit in a year. 

Whereas, in Mumbai at the moment there is a great surge or expensive studios being built and a lot of equipment being sold. People are going for all the expensive gear. 

But still, the big guys in LA and London are doing far bigger things. 


Tanuj.


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## impressions (Jan 22, 2014)

rJames @ Tue Jan 21 said:


> Actually •••caution sarcasm ahead••• the real threat to the music industry is the impact of the connectivity that the internet provides so that composers from around the world can compete with the composers who live here in LA.
> 
> If there weren't so many composers from countries around the world where the cost of living isn't nearly as high as in LA competing for the same jobs in film and TV, we could charge a higher rate AND probably be in the running for many more jobs.
> 
> ...



that sounds like they are shitty directors in LA who don't care about the music. I think serious industry people would prefer to work locally and actually talk in person with the guy. its much more professional, IMHO.
but I could be wrong.


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## doctornine (Jan 22, 2014)

adriancook @ Sun Jan 19 said:


> Daryl and Jonathan know a lot more than I do.
> 
> But what know is
> 
> ...




1. Depends on the library - though most still take unsolicited demos. Generally it's down to luck and timing - if you happen to send what they happen to be looking for and don't have anyone else tho do it, you're in with a shot...

2. Again, depends. One UK co I have worked with pay a recoupable production advance. So that comes from your royalties. I know others that pay a non recoupable fee. Then theres the "buy out" which seems a uniquely US idea - the library pays you a set fee for a track and you receive no mechanicals, only performance royalties. Seen this vary anywhere from $50 to $1000 plus per track.

3. There is no norm anymore. 50/50 is industry standard but I've seen deals that have been 70/30 and even 30/70. These days it's whatever you're prepared to accept and work with.
You also have to be aware there are several new business models around these days.... 

4. I've never bothered to ask - I get pretty detailed info in my PRS statements.

5. If you want to build a profile, Library isn't about that. As you say, if there is a credit on s show for library, it's usually along the lines : Music by YYZ Library.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 22, 2014)

New business model:
Composers' battle it out as to who is the most cost-effective.
Libraries fight one another as to which can offer the most bang for the buck.
Producers shave off their own salaries in order to reduce the overall budget.
Network owners collectively buy a nice island with their new profits.


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## AC986 (Jan 22, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Jan 22 said:


> New business model:
> Composers' battle it out as to who is the most cost-effective.



Not in a library they wouldn't because as explained, there tends to be no crossover.



Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Jan 22 said:


> Libraries fight one another as to which can offer the most bang for the buck.



Haven't personally heard of any evidence to support that.




Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Jan 22 said:


> Producers shave off their own salaries in order to reduce the overall budget.



A lot of producers don't get salaries.



Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Jan 22 said:


> Network owners collectively buy a nice island with their new profits.



No. That would be the guy that ran Microsoft. 


At the end of the day, you originally asked questions and you got answers from myself and others that took time to answer them. Now you're beginning to to sound irritated.


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## Daryl (Jan 22, 2014)

adriancook @ Wed Jan 22 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Jan 22 said:
> 
> 
> > New business model:
> ...


That is the case with Audio Network, which has a business model that has eliminated Mechanicals. None of the other libraries can compete on price.

D


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 22, 2014)

Adrian, I will ask my producer friends if they have seen their income decrease due to ever-diminishing budgets forced on them by believers in Austerity© (dividends at all cost), and then I will replace salary with the correct term.

And I was responding to the continued use of 'new business model', which to me is just another term for cost-cutting, getting editors to become composers, killing off quality($$$) work in exchange for an approximation of scoring, a game of YouTube hits and writing without critique.

I'm not irritated, I'm scared. :wink: Just because I'm a loudmouth here doesn't mean that my feelings aren't shared by a good number of us.


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## AC986 (Jan 22, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Jan 22 said:


> Adrian, I will ask my producer friends if they have seen their income decrease due to ever-diminishing budgets forced on them by believers in Austerity© (dividends at all cost), and then I will replace salary with the correct term.
> 
> And I was responding to the continued use of 'new business model', which to me is just another term for cost-cutting, getting editors to become composers, driving the music to become a dull paste that can be applied over anything.
> 
> I'm not irritated, I'm scared. :wink:



Daryl I didn't know that about Audio Network. Presumably this will be looked at by everyone else and reacted to accordingly.

Ned I don't see anything to be scared of. If you have confidence in your ability to produce music for producers/directors for years then I can't see how suddenly your ability has been diminished just like that.

You're going to come back and say it's nothing to do with your ability. I'm then going to come back with then if that is the case, it can't just be about that it must be something else. And on it goes. You could talk just about anything on the planet and how over time it's been affected by something else.

All anyone can do is to say how it is with library atm and that's about it. Everything changes all the time. People here say there are too many immigrants all the time and its effecting their chances of getting jobs. 

Welcome to the new global world.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 22, 2014)

adriancook @ 22/1/2014 said:


> Ned I don't see anything to be scared of. If you have confidence in your ability to produce music for producers/directors for years then I can't see how suddenly your ability has been diminished just like that.



Maybe it's because more and more directors (like the one I met yesterday) have said to me in the last 2 years a variation of, "Man, I sure wish I could hire you for this gig, you don't how much time we spend in the edit room trying to make library music fit, but we've decided to go with a library."


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## AC986 (Jan 22, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Jan 22 said:


> adriancook @ 22/1/2014 said:
> 
> 
> > Ned I don't see anything to be scared of. If you have confidence in your ability to produce music for producers/directors for years then I can't see how suddenly your ability has been diminished just like that.
> ...



Then do library music as well as going for gigs. It takes time to build up but you have plenty of time to do that. Just be flexible. Do both. Bend with the breeze.

Now I'm going to the dentist, which for some reason has become quite appealing after this library music thread. :lol:


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 22, 2014)

Bob Dylan:

"You don't have to be a weatherman to see which way the wind blows."


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## AC986 (Jan 22, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jan 22 said:


> Bob Dylan:
> 
> "You don't have to be a weatherman to see which way then wind blows."



I was watching him last night at the Newport Folk Festival. Great to see that again. Names to conjure with. Buffy Saint Marie! Mike Bloomfield.

Where does the time go.


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## doctornine (Jan 22, 2014)

Daryl @ Wed Jan 22 said:


> That is the case with Audio Network, which has a business model that has eliminated Mechanicals. None of the other libraries can compete on price.
> 
> D



And they are not alone in using that business model, just the most effective, so far.


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## impressions (Jan 22, 2014)

join the evolution or perish.

I rather sweep the floors.
because in any case the industry is going for a very bad artistic direction:


> cost-cutting, getting editors to become composers, killing off quality($$$) work in exchange for an approximation of scoring, a game of YouTube hits and writing without critique.


so I would not want to work for such a lazy and crooked goal.

very well put ned.

we are not old fashioned. we care about scoring to picture. about scoring in general for a purpose. you care about tossing it the sea and get payed for it. 
but we are going back to the same argument.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 22, 2014)

impressions @ Wed Jan 22 said:


> join the evolution or perish.
> 
> I rather sweep the floors.



it would probably pay better


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## Daryl (Jan 22, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jan 22 said:


> impressions @ Wed Jan 22 said:
> 
> 
> > join the evolution or perish.
> ...


I don't think you can earn £100K+ a year for sweeping floors. Maybe the LA Union is much stronger than the UK one.

D


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## impressions (Jan 22, 2014)

whatever makes your boat float.


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## rJames (Jan 22, 2014)

Spill on isle 5.


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