# DVZ released (finally) - demos up



## Frederick Russ (Sep 20, 2010)

Of interest for Sample Talk - Audio Impressions DVZ has finally been released. Here are the demos:

http://www.audioimpressions.com/demos/music


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## gsilbers (Sep 20, 2010)

oh. seems that hollywood string pushed them a little. 

see the price?

http://www.audioimpressions.com/store


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## RiffWraith (Sep 20, 2010)

Listened to 'Oblivion' and Saga. I gotta say, they sound really, really good. Better than other libs on the market? Maybe, maybe not. I think at this point, what is "better" is a relative question, and is more about who is doing the cue, as opposed to the actual lib itself.

I guess the question is: is DVZ really that much easier and quicker to use?

"The 70 DVZ Strings Kontakt 4.1 Player library ..." And it is priced rather competatively at $1,495.00. What happened to the $20,000 strings-only version with HDs? I guess they figured this was the bay to go.

Best of luck to them!


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## gsilbers (Sep 20, 2010)

and kontakt

How do I play this library?
70 DVZ Strings runs in the included Kontakt 4.1 Player, either as five VST plug-ins (one per section) within a specified VST host or in a Kontakt 4.1 Player standalone where you load the library’s 32 Kontakt NKMs using a provided multi file for one-click loading. You use DVZ’s graphical user interface on your sampler’s monitor to control everything rather than using individual Kontakt GUI’s. Use your favorite sequencer or go direct to a mixer/DAW.


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## gsilbers (Sep 20, 2010)

dexterflex @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> Hopefully they post some videos on how it works within kontakt. Let's hope it's not as hard like symphonic choirs and their word builder plugin. Especially when using logic.
> 
> Some questions
> 
> ...


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## gsilbers (Sep 20, 2010)

and some controversial info that might require its own thread!! 


It has taken us seven years of development and cost over $5 million to make this happen on just one computer.


and



if I use a faster i7 plus an SSD will that give me better results?
No. Please do not use an SSD (solid state drive). While you might think that its touted speed is an advantage, in fact if the samples stream too quickly the library will not sound as good. We have tested configurations with SSDs, and (even faster) with 10 to 16 GB RAM in which we loaded the entire library into RAM; this did not sound as good as using the recommended configuration wherein portions of the samples stream from RAM and then the rest streams from hard disk. In our tests, SSDs caused "crunchiness" and hung notes! You can expect the same lack-of-benefit with RAID drives (Redundant Arrays of Independent Disks). The 70 DVZ Strings User Guide instructs you on how to optimize Kontakt Player for use with the drive setup we recommend. Please follow these instructions for the best results.


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## Olias (Sep 20, 2010)

gsilbers @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> in fact if the samples stream too quickly the library will not sound as good. We have tested configurations with SSDs, and (even faster) with 10 to 16 GB RAM in which we loaded the entire library into RAM; this did not sound as good as using the recommended configuration wherein portions of the samples stream from RAM and then the rest streams from hard disk. In our tests, SSDs caused "crunchiness" and hung notes!



Uh... _riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight_.

I'm thinking I'll pick up a 2GHz P4 so it can stream the samples slower and sound _even better_.

EDIT: Well, okay... if they've written their script(s) in a way where it craps out when the samples are there too soon, then maybe...


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## José Herring (Sep 20, 2010)

Seems to me like they pulled something out that is pretty remarkable. Maybe not the most real thing out there but certainly has a lot of dexterity and dynamic flexibility.

And the price point is a lot better than it was 3 years ago.

hmmmmmmm.......


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## gsilbers (Sep 20, 2010)

sample logic libraries are the same. price per gig is difficult to judge. 


but more on point, it seems wierd that ita only 8 gigs... maybe you misinterpret something? 
because then the library could potentially be sold in 2 DVDs but its a whole box.


edit: 

you are right:
. Although the entire 70 DVZ Strings library occupies less than 8 Gigabytes of disk space, we suggest using a 160 GB or larger capacity drive for the samples spinning at 7,200 or preferably 10,000 rpm as this gives better performance than smaller drives. RAID arrays are of no great value in this application so we do not recommend them, and solid state drives (SSDs) should never be used for streaming our samples. To be clear, you can use an optional SSD for the main C: drive but not for the sample drive.

, if DVZ was the front end of hollywood strings.. now there is something we coudn't live w/o


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## gsilbers (Sep 20, 2010)

josejherring @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> Seems to me like they pulled something out that is pretty remarkable. Maybe not the most real thing out there but certainly has a lot of dexterity and dynamic flexibility.
> 
> And the price point is a lot better than it was 3 years ago.
> 
> hmmmmmmm.......



agree. 

the control is amazing! sample sounds are not as good as i remember from 2005 namm though.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 20, 2010)

dexterflex @ Tue Sep 21 said:


> Here is a quote from the technical page about DVZ
> 
> "Although the entire 70 DVZ Strings library occupies less than 8 Gigabytes of disk space"
> 
> Anyone else wondering why a library with a 1500 price tag is the same size as a modern library from the early 90's?


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## Jan16 (Sep 21, 2010)

From what I've read, before anyone is able to enjoy the benefits of the library, setting it up and getting it to work looks like quite a hassle! :shock:


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## EnTaroAdun (Sep 21, 2010)

gsilbers @ 2010-09-21 said:


> No. Please do not use an SSD (solid state drive). While you might think that its touted speed is an advantage, in fact if the samples stream too quickly the library will not sound as good. We have tested configurations with SSDs, and (even faster) with 10 to 16 GB RAM in which we loaded the entire library into RAM; this did not sound as good as using the recommended configuration wherein portions of the samples stream from RAM and then the rest streams from hard disk.


Sounds like an april hoax to me.
Makes absolutely no sense.


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## lulgje (Sep 21, 2010)

It looks like a very interesting product and an extremely big hats off to Audio Impressions for spending many years and lots of money developing this product.
I hope it works out for them.

However, just listening to the demos, to me it sound a bit fake and not realistic enough to be able to compete with LASS or Hollywood Strings. Maybe the playability and size is a big plus, but shouldn't it be after all that the 'sound' justifies the means?

Maybe it does have potential but the 'competition' is already out there (LASS + HS).

Anybody feels the same?
o/~


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## EnTaroAdun (Sep 21, 2010)

I think the sound is very nice and offers a new flavour.
But yes .. the demos sound a bit fake in some regards. I hope they'll release some more, which sound more realistic.


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## germancomponist (Sep 21, 2010)

lux @ Tue Sep 21 said:


> Interesting concept, and I applaude at the size. Finally someone is taking an opposite direction than the majority. Welcome on board Dvz.
> 
> "South By Southwest" shows potential to me. Still early to get the full sonic possibiilties, but that applies to every library ou there at the launch.
> 
> Luca



+1


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## Jan16 (Sep 21, 2010)

I love the concept, especially the fact that it's not a typical tedious cut-and-paste kind of sample library but rather one aimed at providing the composer with a maximum of real time control. 
In terms of realism I don't think it's the holy grail of sample libraries, but judging from the demos it sounds very good, very musical, and very expressive. 

What I don't understand is how the performance can be worse when you load all samples into RAM as opposed to streaming them from HD. 
Especially for a library with such a small footprint which requires a computer all for itself wouldn't it have been better to opt for loading all samples into RAM instead of streaming them from HD?

Anyway, I hope the library will be available in Europe soon.


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## Pedro Camacho (Sep 21, 2010)

Jan16 @ Tue Sep 21 said:


> In terms of realism I don't think it's the holy grail of sample libraries



Same thing here = deal breaker


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## Olias (Sep 21, 2010)

> Although the entire 70 DVZ Strings library occupies less than 8 Gigabytes of disk space, we suggest using a 160 GB or larger capacity drive for the samples spinning at 7,200 or preferably 10,000 rpm as this gives better performance than smaller drives. RAID arrays are of no great value in this application so we do not recommend them, and solid state drives (SSDs) should never be used for streaming our samples. To be clear, you can use an optional SSD for the main C: drive but not for the sample drive.



Man, what garbage. So in other words, "You need a fast drive, but not... you know... _too fast_."
~o)


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## Peter Alexander (Sep 21, 2010)

Olias @ Tue Sep 21 said:


> > Although the entire 70 DVZ Strings library occupies less than 8 Gigabytes of disk space, we suggest using a 160 GB or larger capacity drive for the samples spinning at 7,200 or preferably 10,000 rpm as this gives better performance than smaller drives. RAID arrays are of no great value in this application so we do not recommend them, and solid state drives (SSDs) should never be used for streaming our samples. To be clear, you can use an optional SSD for the main C: drive but not for the sample drive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Olias, I'm concerned you're being a little unfair here to Ai. What we ask is for a developer to test and give us realistic specs so we don't have to waste our time and money doing their beta testing. 

Well, Ai did just that. They tested three different types of drives, and in their testing experience, in order, ranked 10000RPM Drives, then 7200RPM drives, then SSDs.

You can put 70 DVZ Strings on the Hewlett Packard System below. Just swap out the Windows 7 Home for Windows 7 Professional so you can access up to 24GB of RAM.

(copy the whole link into a new browser).
http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/computer_can_series.do?storeName=computer_store&category=desktops&a1=Category&v1=High+performance&a2=Processor&v2=Intel&series_name=HPE380t_series&jumpid=in_R329_prodexp/hhoslp/psg/desktops/High_performance/HPE380t_series (http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopp ... 80t_series)

You can get a basic system for $1319. The case holds up to three drives. 

I'm grateful Ai was so thorough. No guesswork!

And no, I am NOT a dealer.


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## Peter Alexander (Sep 21, 2010)

Jan16 @ Tue Sep 21 said:


> From what I've read, before anyone is able to enjoy the benefits of the library, setting it up and getting it to work looks like quite a hassle! :shock:



That was several years ago. Here the library is in it's own Kontakt 4.1 player with support software. And it works within VEPro. 

I'm not seeing the hassle.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 21, 2010)

I call bullshit on SSD disapproval, too. If they got hung notes, perhaps, _just perhaps_ they should've programmed their core engine better!

ESPECIALLY the thing where they said that they loaded the whole library in RAM and that it didn't work as they expected it to?! Man, that's rubbish. When full samples are in RAM, you get the BEST performance and least latency, period. Everything else is bull.


I mean, HS practically demands SSDs for proper performance. This library is far away in terms of size, and it actually demands DFD rather than loading it all in RAM?! That is, my friends, insane and illogical. SSDs work just as normal hard drives, except their access tò   ç¯   ç¯‚   ç¯ƒ   ç¯„   ç¯…   ç¯†   ç¯‡   ç¯ˆ   ç¯‰   ç¯Š   ç¯‹   ç¯Œ   ç¯   ç¯Ž   ç¯   ç¯   ç¯‘   ç¯’   ç¯“   ç¯”   ç¯•   ç¯–   ç¯—   ç¯˜   ç¯™   ç¯š


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## EvilDragon (Sep 21, 2010)

The thing is that it's contrasting reality. SSDs have MUCH better performance than regular hard drives, no matter what the application. So I would assume it's their core program at fault for not playing nicely with them, not SSDs. And this is a bad thing.


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## Ed (Sep 21, 2010)

Firstly, wow they actually finished it. Secondly, wow Kontakt??? Thirdly, WOW talk about a price drop! Forthly, still aint going to win any awards for how great it sounds - I still think it sounds just as crappy to me as it always did we just get to listen properly now. Fifthly, sounds bloomin marvellous if you're a classically trained pianist or even a good keyboardist that works with live *musicians all the time* and cant be bothered to fiddle around with samples and just want it to come out sounding decent easily to show to the producers so you can record with the real stuff, just so long as its just a demo and not a final product...

I'm still amazed they spent 5 million and they couldnt make the samples sound as good as you would imagine a 5 million dollar premium library to sound. Sounds about as good as a $200 library to me. 

That is my total review of the situation.


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## clonewar (Sep 21, 2010)

EvilDragon @ Tue Sep 21 said:


> The thing is that it's contrasting reality. SSDs have MUCH better performance than regular hard drives, no matter what the application. So I would assume it's their core program at fault for not playing nicely with them, not SSDs. And this is a bad thing.



For sample playback, the core program is Kontakt. They do say that there is some synthesis going on, not sure whether that is done in Kontakt or in their DVZ front end software, but that could have something to do with the samples streaming 'too fast'. 

Obviously, I agree that SSDs are a great thing for streaming sample libraries.. but if they say that they've seen issues with DVZ and SSDs then I don't see what the big deal is. Anyone that buys DVZ is going to have it on a dedicated PC, they just won't have to spend extra on an SSD.


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## gsilbers (Sep 21, 2010)

maybe we are being a little too fast to pass judgement.

seems the demos are more into showing the out of the box sound and experience/control. 

try doing a 1 to 3 pass with vienna and see how it sounds??!! :| >8o 

although i agree on the sound not being up to the price, im still wondering if maybe future demos will show a better sound. 
maybe not. 

whats funny is the way "7 years in the making" sounds ... and 5 million bucks .


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## Animus (Sep 21, 2010)

[quote="gsilbers @ Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:43 pm"
whats funny is the way "7 years in the making" sounds ... and 5 million bucks . 
[/quote]

lol, I read it as "7 years of fucking wasting time trying to get it right and burning through 5 million bucks trying too...."


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## Waywyn (Sep 21, 2010)

In my opinion they still focus too much on "all played in one rush" and "just two dubs" stuff. I don't care how many dubs someone does but it finally has to sound good! You still hear two hands when moving from one part to the other. A hand is not a bow and you can hear that on most of the "no dub" demos. But still, the lib improved a lot! I am happy for Audio Impressions that they took the time and revamp the lib and go with the flow of time.


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## Udo (Sep 22, 2010)

The hardware specs are strange, possibly because they're fiddling with timing issues in the DVZ engine, to compensate for things they're doing in Kontact it wasn't designed for.

According to the specs, you may have to *DOWNGRADE your CPU* to run DVZ properly. They specifically say that *an i7 860 or 870 is preferable to an i7 950 and: "Other i7 CPUs may or may not work well; unfortunately we cannot comprehensively test and evaluate Intel's rapidly expanding range of i7 products". * 


I do like the concept of DVZ Strings and some of the demos sound interesting.


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## Jan16 (Sep 22, 2010)

Peter Alexander @ Tue Sep 21 said:


> Jan16 @ Tue Sep 21 said:
> 
> 
> > From what I've read, before anyone is able to enjoy the benefits of the library, setting it up and getting it to work looks like quite a hassle! :shock:
> ...



Maybe you want to look at the manual and read from section 3 and upward: that's anything but a smooth, quick installation in my book. 
An additional thought is that the more you are required to tweak and adjust, the bigger the chance that something does not work exactly the way it should, and that's usually the point where frustration sets in.

But. at least AI also acknowledges the fact that it takes quite a while to install the library as can be read in the FAQ on their website:

"How long will it take to install the library on my system?
There are two parts to this question. To simply take the DVD and install Kontakt 4.1 Player and the 70 DVZ Strings samples will take about 20 minutes. However, to completely install the software, as well as acquiring and installing third-party add-ons, registering everything, setting up the hardware (Ethernet and/or audio card connectivity), and to configure all the software will probably take from three to six hours. This estimate doesn't include any time to build the sampler computer, since you may purchase that as an off-the-shelf box or do-it-yourself starting with a case, mother board etc."


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 22, 2010)

Hmm, I think for various reasons there is a bit of a wave of anti-dvz going on here that is OTT. It seems like one helluvan achievement to me - Saga, real time, is absolutely remarkable to my ears. $200 library?!! Come on....

Maybe HS (or LASS) could do better with more time, but time=money. For the higher-end working composer with decent chops (not me!) I'd say it was an invaluable tool. I wish 'em all the best.... it's been a great 12 months for strings!

(ps - would be nice to hear some demos with a little less huge space in them some time)


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## Jan16 (Sep 22, 2010)

Having downloaded the .wav files I thought I was listening to polished demos. 
I was not aware that everything had been recorded real time.
That makes it all the more a great achievement indeed!


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## EvilDragon (Sep 22, 2010)

Udo @ 22.9.2010 said:


> The hardware specs are strange, possibly because they're fiddling with timing issues in the DVZ engine, to compensate for things they're doing in Kontact it wasn't designed for.



I bet this is most likely the case. I mean, fuck it guys if you can't make it work on EVERY high-end system! If the timing of your engine sucks so much that you have to use SLOWER components, then obviously your core progòb   çÕ¬b   çÕ­b   çÕ®b   çÕ¯b   çÕ°b   çÕ±b   çÕ²b   çÕ³b   çÕ´b   çÕµb   çÕ¶b   çÕ·b   çÕ¸b   çÕ¹b   çÕºb   çÕ»b   çÕ¼b   çÕ½b   çÕ¾b   çÕ¿b   çÕÀb   çÕÁb   çÕÂb   çÕÃb   çÕ


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## Ben H (Sep 22, 2010)

EDIT


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## Ashermusic (Sep 22, 2010)

EvilDragon @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> [
> I bet this is most likely the case. I mean, f#@k it guys if you can't make it work on EVERY high-end system! If the timing of your engine sucks so much that you have to use SLOWER components, then obviously your core program doesn't work quite well. FIX IT THEN. Don't tell people to essentially downgrade. That's ridiculous.



Yes, you're right, of course, who wants to hear "you cannot run this on ridiculously over-priced new drives that most people do not have, you will have to use much cheaper and bigger more common ones." :shock:


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## Ashermusic (Sep 22, 2010)

Waywyn @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> Jan16 @ Wed Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Having downloaded the .wav files I thought I was listening to polished demos.
> ...



Would not common sense dictate that if you can make it sound this good really quickly then with more time you can make it sound even better?

I m up to my ass in strings now with HS, KH CS II, LASS, and Sonivox and sadly I am not working on a series where I am up under hard deadlines, and I don't own a PC so at the moment this is not a product for me but it seems to be DVZ is delivering on what it promised so long ago and is a legitimate contender. I hope Chris decides also to go ahead and open the technology up to use with other libraries as well as he said he would eventually like to do because workflow wise it is revolutionary.


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## Mike Connelly (Sep 22, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> Yes, you're right, of course, who wants to hear "you cannot run this on ridiculously over-priced new drives that most people do not have, you will have to use much cheaper and bigger more common ones."



Did you miss the part where they recommend using faster _CPUs_? Particularly not ones like the i7 950 which is probably one of the most commonly used for building systems for sampling right now?

While it's nice to not _require_ high end gear, when they say that faster drives and CPU can cause problems, that's cause for concern that they may not have the technological side ironed out.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 22, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> Ashermusic @ Wed Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, you're right, of course, who wants to hear "you cannot run this on ridiculously over-priced new drives that most people do not have, you will have to use much cheaper and bigger more common ones."
> ...



Since most users will run this on a slave I still see, "you will get better results if you use a slower, less expensive machine for this" as more of a plus than a negative.

Hell, I wish I could buy a $500-$1000 PC and just run HS on it well.


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## Ed (Sep 22, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> Saga, real time, is absolutely remarkable to my ears. $200 library?!! Come on....



As a real time demo its great and that's the market who will be interested, but no matter how long people put into the demos it will still sound synthy and thin. You cant make a library sound much better that is being stretched, velocity layers faked, round robin faked, legato transitions faked sound that much better. I'm sure they made that tiny sample pool work really well, but lets face it you cant fake everything with programming with tiny samples. 

It was an absurd library back when it required its own supercomputer to run it and cost a bazzillion dollars, but now its a much more sensible price and it can be run in Kontakt like a normal library. Its power is in the control and the speed of working up a mockup. For someone that works with real orchestras and is a good keyboardist and isnt interested in using samples as a final product I can see this library working really well. What I find a shame is that they couldnt have also created some great sounding samples at the same time to use with the system. Chris Stone talked about the Synclavier and at the time the Synclavier samples sounded really really awesome, I just don't see that with this thing. I don't get how you can spend 5 million dollars on this and it come out *sounding *not much better than GPO or other sketchpad libraries, no matter how good their software is this still seems like a colossal waste of money to me. But regardless of that, they actually have a viable product now, I'm just not sure how many will really buy into it seeing as how the market for such a system is quite small. ie. Most people need samples to be used for the final product, which means they need it to sound good. As soon as you need to use different samples other than DVZ or you have to go back over it with other samples you're kind of missing the point of DVZ.


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## Animus (Sep 22, 2010)

Ed @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Wed Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Saga, real time, is absolutely remarkable to my ears. $200 library?!! Come on....
> ...



I think you are being a little too harsh.  Surely there are better "sounding" strings out there (HS for example) but the playability of this library is remarkable. The strings have a certain liveliness that others don't which I am sure might be due to those performance sliders such as time and pitch displacement of the individually recorded desks, not to mention all the other parameters. Honestly, if I wouldn't have already bought HS I would totally go for this and am convinced I could make fab sounding stuff with it. First thing I would do is only use the included Space for really short ER for locational cues and then use my own reverb techniques and tools. That's the one thing I don't like the sound of in the demos and is probably contributing most to the "synthy" sound you are hearing.


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## choc0thrax (Sep 22, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> Waywyn @ Wed Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Jan16 @ Wed Sep 22 said:
> ...



Common sense would probably remind me that it took them the better part of a decade just getting it to how it sounds now.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 22, 2010)

Ed... GPO?!!! Come on... see this does just sound like hyperbole to me which weakens your argument.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 22, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> Ashermusic @ Wed Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Waywyn @ Wed Sep 22 said:
> ...



Chocotrax talking about common sense is a little like Michael Moore talking about weight control. :twisted:


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## Ed (Sep 22, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> Ed... GPO?!!! Come on... see this does just sound like hyperbole to me which weakens your argument.



Yup GPO, these demos sounds marginally better than GPO but only because it has more control options but sounds just as thin and lifeless and cheap to me. 

As i say the power of the product seems to be in how fast you can create mockups and have (apparently) complete control over it. Just imagine that this was just a normal library though, like LASS or HS, people would say it sounds terrible and out of date. AI have advanced sample technology, they just didnt include good samples with it. Having a pathetically small sample pool is evidence enough that something went wrong. 5 million dollars and 7 years in the making? I did expect more and I think you should too. Think how much Thonex could do with 5 million dollars? The absolulte best rooms, the best engineers the best editors, the best programmers. etc.


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## Ed (Sep 22, 2010)

Animus @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> I think you are being a little too harsh.



I am aware I have been the most harsh in this thread :lol: 



> Surely there are better "sounding" strings out there (HS for example) but the playability of this library is remarkable.



That may be so. 



> The strings have a certain liveliness that others don't which I am sure might be due to those performance sliders such as time and pitch displacement of the individually recorded desks, not to mention all the other parameters.



Yet it still sounds bad. Some synth patches on my Korg Trition are quite playable but they sound terrible. Symphobia is great fun to play but has hardly any control over anything. This has lots of control and playability, but still sounds not much better than a cheap orchestral library to me. It DOES have a market and that market is not the hobbiests but rather the richest composers getting the biggest gigs, ironically. 



> That's the one thing I don't like the sound of in the demos and is probably contributing most to the "synthy" sound you are hearing.



That and the tiny sample pool I would have thought. I'm pretty certain its not just Space, I strongly doubt using a lexicon or something instead will suddenly make it sound like a first class library from this decade capable of competing with the likes of LASS and HS. If Space is THAT bad, surely even AI would have noticed already and given up on it. I knew something was probably going to go wrong when they had a gazillion instruments listed and yet had a tiny sample size, it would take something miraculous to pull out a good sounding library out of that.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 22, 2010)

Ed @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Wed Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed... GPO?!!! Come on... see this does just sound like hyperbole to me which weakens your argument.
> ...



Phhh.... I must be listening to different demos....


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## EvilDragon (Sep 22, 2010)

No, I think I can relate to Ed. DVZ doesn't sound anything THAT particular to me. Expressive, perhaps, yeah. Great sounding? Nope, not to my ears, sorry. I would also blame the small sample pool.

And I guess I'm being second most harsh person in this thread, calling their bullshit on disapproval of faster CPUs and SSDs. Because, gents, that IS, in fact, bullshit.


WIVI Strings, people. When they're done. WIVI Strings.


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## Ed (Sep 22, 2010)

EvilDragon @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> No, I think I can relate to Ed. DVZ doesn't sound anything THAT particular to me. Expressive, perhaps, yeah. Great sounding? Nope, not to my ears, sorry. I would also blame the small sample pool.



I agree, they are expressive. They sure have made those small crappy samples sound as good as its probably possible for them to sound. I just wish their system included good sounds and for the amount of money they spent on this it seems strange that they went into this project knowing they were going to be working with a tiny sample pool.


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## dcoscina (Sep 22, 2010)

Listened to the demos....um, well, let's put it this way: I'm not losing sleep over choosing Hollwood Strings, LASS and Cinematic Strings. Between the three, I've kinda got strings covered (and then some!) and I honestly didn't hear anything that those libs cannot do.

The South by Southwest is, in my opinion, not good at all. Too much release on the strings when they should be all very tight, short articulations. If he was going for a variant on Herrmann's masterpiece or Psycho, it fell short.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 22, 2010)

dcoscina @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> Listened to the demos....um, well, let's put it this way: I'm not losing sleep over choosing Hollwood Strings, LASS and Cinematic Strings. Between the three, I've kinda got strings covered (and then some!) and I honestly didn't hear anything that those libs cannot do.
> 
> The South by Southwest is, in my opinion, not good at all. Too much release on the strings when they should be all very tight, short articulations. If he was going for a variant on Herrmann's masterpiece or Psycho, it fell short.



Actually that was my least favourite demo also, the only time it really thought things sounded obviously fake. Thought most of the others were very good though.


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## Ed (Sep 22, 2010)

i find some of these endorsements strange:



> "“...as spine-tingling as the real thing, and frequently indistinguishable from it.”"



http://www.audioimpressions.com/endorsements/stephenbarton (http://www.audioimpressions.com/endorse ... phenbarton)

Come on! :roll: If he is so impressed with DVZ I wonder what he thinks about HS or LASS. 

For some reason reading some of these endorsements i'm reminded of the Double Rainbow guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAZH0DGHJ3c

Oh!!! Double DVZ violins all the way!!!


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## José Herring (Sep 22, 2010)

If you are using sampled strings as a final product then I wouldn't reach for DVZ. But it will open up the possibility of realizing more of the potential of a strings section as long as everybody knows that in the end the strings will be replaced by live players. In that regard it could be a useful tool. If I'm ever blessed again with the opportunity to write for real players I do honestly think that DVZ has the flexibility to realize more of the music that is capable of being handled by a live section, even if in the end it doesn't sound all that "real".


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## Mike Connelly (Sep 22, 2010)

Ed @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> Having a pathetically small sample pool is evidence enough that something went wrong.



If you don't like the sound, you don't like the sound. But I don't think it makes sense to obsess over size. Just look at SampleModeling, the trumpet is under 300 megs and it's arguably one of the most realistic sounding ones available to date.


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## Animus (Sep 22, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> Ed @ Wed Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Having a pathetically small sample pool is evidence enough that something went wrong.
> ...



It makes one wonder if they would have listed the size as a half terrabyte by mistake if there opinions would be any different.


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## germancomponist (Sep 22, 2010)

A short question: What demo on their website do you all like the most?


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## EnTaroAdun (Sep 22, 2010)

Omg omg omg ... comparing DVZ to GPO. 
Come on ...

Like I already said:
I think the tone is great. And I'm sure the demos are totally not showing the whole potential of this product. They sound rather fake .. but that's no surprise with this keyboard playing.

We have yet to see, if you can get the same realism as you can get with LASS/HS/CS/etc. I don't think we should judge too quickly.


The thing about RAM and SSD being too fast is still suspicious to me though.
This really sounds like a totally instabil and badly coded engine to me. It should totally not matter how fast your system is _as long as it's fast enough_.


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## Ed (Sep 22, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> Ed @ Wed Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Having a pathetically small sample pool is evidence enough that something went wrong.
> ...



300mb per instrument X 70 instruments is 21,000 so that's... 21gigs? How much is their strings? Didn't someone say 8 gigs? Assuming thats uncompressed, thats less than 120mb per instrument. And AI's woodwind library has 120 instruments! Anyone know what the sample pool size is for that one? Just how can you have a sample library that has THAT many instruments sampled and still do them justice? Just how much care and attention can you give it? You can't, that's why it will also suck, probably even more. If someone said they were coming out with a guitar library that had 100 sampled guitars in it, you would be right to assume it would be probably be crappy because no one has the time to program and sample that much detail into those guitars. 

Still, I hadn't forgot about SampleModeling. Sure its not impossible that AI couldn't have done something similarly fantastic, but I just remember thinking that they would have had to have done something really special with that audio pool, like SampleModeling, or we would get what we did get. Even though I was crossing my toes I didnt think it very likely they were going to go down the road of SampleModeling because SampleModeling takes months and months of work to make a single small group of instruments. Audio Impressions technique to me seemed to be like "_lets go record a few notes of a Stradivarius played by the LSO... ten minutes... next instrument.... go... next 1000 instrumentalists please!.._.". It would be something astonishing if they actually took that sample pool and were planning to do what SampleModeling did, which, unsurprisingly in my opinion, they didnt. How could they? They apparently wanted to sample every instrument imaginable. Just how much time and detail do you think they could really capture with that approach? And how much time and detail could they really devote to those instruments to make them anything like SampleModeling's libraries?
*
EDIT TO ADD:
*
Look at this:
http://www.audioimpressions.com/products/librariescomingsoon/20-keyboards (http://www.audioimpressions.com/product ... -keyboards)

Great example of my point. 

It lists stuff like a Moog Model 15 and a ARP 2600 synth. How on earth do you go about sampling stuff like that? You would have to do some deep sampling, you think that's going to happen? This stuff, if true to form, will be in a tiny sample pool so hardly any deep sampling will be done. Stuff like that will need to be sampled more than acoustic instruments in a way since a synth can sound like virtually anything, otherwise, whats the point? My prediction is something like the theramin would get a few sustains and maybe a tremolo. He also cant spend too long with that stuff because....

He has to sample *5 pianos*.... 5 pianos! And *3 harps! *I dont want 3 harps, how many people really need 3 harps? I want one deeply sampled harp with lots of velocity layers, round robins. But that aint gonna happen either since he has to move on as quickly as possible and be as light as he can on how much he does sample. And then we have Tack Piano and Toy Piano 1,2. Is that really necessary to record two toy pianos? Why not just one really good one?

Their approach is just wrong to me, I mean I get it, but it only works for quick score mockups where *if *you need those instruments you have them. But its never going to be an approach thats ever going to give you a great sounding sample library


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## Ed (Sep 22, 2010)

EnTaroAdun @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> Omg omg omg ... comparing DVZ to GPO.
> Come on ...



In regards sound, its not that different.

Its a very different question. There's several pro's to AI's approach, sadly none of them involve advancing the realism and detail of samples themselves. They all involve being realistic enough to make a quick mockup, that's about it, apparently. They advanced sampling software including their orchestrator system, which is a great idea and still useful, but it doesn't make their samples suck any less.



> Like I already said:
> I think the tone is great. And I'm sure the demos are totally not showing the whole potential of this product. They sound rather fake .. but that's no surprise with this keyboard playing.



Keep crossing those fingers...

I will remind everyone LASS has that Auto Arranger thingy and that demo "out of the box" in one pass sounds like god himself played it compared with any of those DVZ strings demos. Oh sure, its not as tweakable as AI I'm sure and AI probably has that orchestrator thing which prints the score for you perfectly or whatever, but which one really sounds better? 



> We have yet to see, if you can get the same realism as you can get with LASS/HS/CS/etc. I don't think we should judge too quickly.



You're hopeless optimistic against all the evidence I think. With a tiny sample pool and their apparent wish to sample everything under the sun I think they're more concerned with being able to boast a lot of instruments rather than how detailed those instruments were sampled.

If you are given 1 million dollars and a year to sample anything thats quite a lot, you can do a lot with that. But if you tried sampling hundreds of instruments you're still really not spending that much money or time per instrument compared to a ordinary library with a normal budget would and you can still churn out a few hundred mediocre "meh" libraries despite having a million dollars budget. See?


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## Hannes_F (Sep 22, 2010)

I am not even sure all violins and players are different. I doubt that every LSO member has a Stradivarius or a Guaneri.

It is much more probable that they recorded just one desk per voice and simulate umpteen different positions out of that. Which they mix then together with a lot of delays that they call microphone bleed simulation (which is a nice idea but seems to make that synthy reverb tail).

Good ideas ... but perhaps they should have consulted somebody like me in time (if I may say so) ... the outcome would have been better, seriously.


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## Peter Alexander (Sep 22, 2010)

EnTaroAdun @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> Omg omg omg ... comparing DVZ to GPO.
> Come on ...
> 
> Like I already said:
> I think the tone is great. And I'm sure the demos are totally not showing the whole potential of this product.



Very true. Unfortunately, only one of the demos is sequenced the way most of us work while the rest are live performances. Chris is obviously so skilled he can improvise on the spot Mozart, Vaughan Williams, etc. So the performances aren't the kinds of MIDI mockups we're used to listening to. 

The South By Southwest demo pushes the library by doing a lot of polyphonic writing across the entire string section. Typically, the fewer number of lines, the more realistic a string library will sound. That's why LASS's real divisi capability is so important because you can achieve a lot of polyphonic writing and vertical harmony stacks not possible to date with other libraries. 

Also, there is no suggestion in the literature about using slower CPUs. The recommended CPU is an i7 920. However, now that the prices have dropped, the i7 950 is the better value. Additionally, the i7900 series reads up to 24GB of RAM while the i7 800 series referenced in Ai's tech notes can handle up to 32GB of RAM. 

As far as specs are concerned, Ai licensed the Kontakt 4.1 player. So 70 DVZ Strings, as well as ANY OTHER library in a Kontakt 4.1 player, will have the same basic tech specs. 

On the PC, Kontakt 4.1 is backwards compatible to Windows XP - which means it runs on older systems, but Ai recommended system is an i7 920. Hardly a slow machine since the CPU is STILL in the line and so many have them.


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## germancomponist (Sep 23, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Thu Sep 23 said:


> I am not even sure all violins and players are different. I doubt that every LSO member has a Stradivarius or a Guaneri.
> 
> It is much more probable that they recorded just one desk per voice and simulate umpteen different positions out of that. Which they mix then together with a lot of delays that they call microphone bleed simulation (which is a nice idea but seems to make that synthy reverb tail).
> 
> Good ideas ... but perhaps they should have consulted somebody like me in time (if I may say so) ... the outcome would have been better, seriously.



Interesting point, Hannes.

I did an experiment and enhanced the mix from their demo "Saga". 

Take a listen: http://www.box.net/shared/680nd8nt7f

As one can hear, the sound jumps suddenly here and there (I think this is after switching...) and I too think that the synth-sound here and there only comes from the delay/reverb what is used on their demos. All in all my ears tell me that the sound is not bad at all. Maybe the IR`s are not recorded best or something else is not working best, but the tone / sound for itself is cool.

And as a side note, when I read: "Demonstrates the full range between legato and marcato. Saga was recorded in a single pass without stopping, and no overdubs. Composed and performed by Christopher L. Stone." I have to say: WOW, very cool, Chris!


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## Mike Connelly (Sep 23, 2010)

Ed @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> 300mb per instrument



Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that the 300 contains multiple trumpet instruments, cornet, flugel, and picc.



Peter Alexander @ Wed Sep 22 said:


> Also, there is no suggestion in the literature about using slower CPUs. The recommended CPU is an i7 920. However, now that the prices have dropped, the i7 950 is the better value. Additionally, the i7900 series reads up to 24GB of RAM while the i7 800 series referenced in Ai's tech notes can handle up to 32GB of RAM.



That's not what was quoted earlier in the thread, did they change the info on their website?


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## Jaap (Sep 23, 2010)

The demos are horrible in my opinion and chased me away. Quite synthy sounding, but above all the "Dont go in the attic" demo has some heavy distortion and peaking way too loud. Very amateur in my opinion.

I don't care if they spend 7 years and 5 million dollar to create it and I applaud to deliver "naked demos" but please make sure it's at least up to par.


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## Ed (Sep 23, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Thu Sep 23 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that the 300 contains multiple trumpet instruments, cornet, flugel, and picc.



I dont have it, someone else will have to confirm

The point is that SampleModeling takes months and months of painstaking work to create those *few *instruments, wheras AI have hundreds of instruments. With a sample pool that small the ONLY option is synthesis, and how can they really do any of them justice? And thats why their strings sounds suck and thats why their 120 woodwinds will suck and thats why their keyboards will suck. 5 pianos?? 3 harps?? Come on. :lol:


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## lux (Sep 23, 2010)

Worra sampled a gazillion pianos and they sound pretty good.

So the point is?


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## EnTaroAdun (Sep 23, 2010)

The instruments in a MotifXS for example are not that bad .. some are actually quite good. And this thing only has a few hundret MB.

I think with really good programing and a sampling/synth-hybrid-approach 8GB _can_ be more than enough for just a string library. If this is the case in this library .. we will see.
I just really don't think anybody should judge the whole product from some demos, which were put together in a few minutes probably (just to show the live-capabilities).



It's absolutely not a smart move from AI to start with those -and only those- demos however. And if there's clipping in some of them (can't hear that in the attic demo though), it's even somehow unprofessional (by the way .. some WIVI demos had heaviest clipping as well .. probably they fixed it already).


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## SvK (Sep 23, 2010)

Legato sounds crappy, short articulations sound better.

Is this true Legato?
Im also hearing that "vienna harshness" in the sounds.
Notice they never dared to play really High Violin Strings.

ill pass

SvK


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## Ed (Sep 23, 2010)

lux @ Thu Sep 23 said:


> Worra sampled a gazillion pianos and they sound pretty good.
> 
> So the point is?



And just how large were those pianos?

Why would AI suddenly sample deeply after having their entire massive 70 instrument string section library fit into 8gigs? Lets put this in perspective, over a decade ago we got GigaPiano with GigaSampler. This was a 1Gig sampled piano! I'd be surprised if AI even sampled a gigs worth for each piano. Think about it, even if it was only a Gigabyte per piano thats already 5gigs, only 3 gigs off their entire Strings library! 

The only way to get detailed and realistic samples is either deep sampling ala Tonehammer or synthesis like SampleModeling. SampleModeling takes months and months just to come up with a few instruments, so AI dont have time to do that with every single instrument (WW library = 120 instruments!!!) and its clear they arent the deep sampling types having such a small sample pool for their strings... and you can hear it.


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## lux (Sep 23, 2010)

I understand that you tend to equal size to quality as a given fact.
But its not always the case. For more than one reason.

1) Big sized libraries chromatic means that you recorded musicians' notes thousands and thousands times with multiple dynamics. Which means that the musicians have been strictly disciplined to being able to record such amount of stuff. Sometimes this goes against expressivity of the samples. In general i've heard both good and so-so results. But not always its a trademark of great musicality.

2) Big sized libraries means big sized editings. Sometimes samples need crafting, love and patience. I have no idea how one can be patient and detailed enough on one million samples. But maybe thats me.

In general i can say that i played 500 megs single patches and they sound like crap and 70/80 megs patches that just do sound great. Of course the opposite applies as well. The greatly acclaimed "pp" it looks it was not such a big deal in terms of megabytes.

In my own vision what counts is the design of a patch, something which needs to be done way before even thinking about recording something. 

Of course its just an approach which applies to me. But as a general rule i personally would never kill a library which is not in my hands just based on bytes

Luca


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## Ed (Sep 23, 2010)

lux @ Thu Sep 23 said:


> I understand that you tend to equal size to quality as a given fact.
> But its not always the case. For more than one reason.
> 
> 1) Big sized libraries chromatic means that you recorded musicians' notes thousands and thousands times with multiple dynamics. Which means that the musicians have been strictly disciplined to being able to record such amount of stuff. Sometimes this goes against expressivity of the samples. In general i've heard both good and so-so results. But not always its a trademark of great musicality.



So the solution is... record less?



> 2) Big sized libraries means big sized editings. Sometimes samples need crafting, love and patience. I have no idea how one can be patient and detailed enough on one million samples. But maybe thats me.



Smaller sized libraries mean you need even more editing and programming, or if you have something like Symphobia it sounds great but you have virtually no control. 



> In general i can say that i played 500 megs single patches and they sound like crap and 70/80 megs patches that just do sound great. Of course the opposite applies as well. The greatly acclaimed "pp" it looks it was not such a big deal in terms of megabytes.



Yes, for PP they went out and recorded specific articulations very well but if they had more time they could have captured more detail. Lets say they had $60,000 for that project, with that they need to see which instruments are worth spending time on and how much time. The more instruments they want to capture the less time they have with each = the sample wont be as good. 

AI are forced to fake velocity layers, fake round robins, stretch samples, fake legato all because they didnt record all of their instruments deeply enough to start with. I dont know if that was intentional or not. 

If someone said to you you can go out and record 120 instruments but the sample pool can only be 10 gigs, would you expect it to sound good? 



> Of course its just an approach which applies to me. But as a general rule i personally would never kill a library which is not in my hands just based on bytes



The point is that it isnt *just* how big it is its how many instruments that sample pool is for. Sample Modelling works because its synthesis, AI isn't doing that and even if they did all their instruments would require such a tremendous amount of work it wouldn't be viable, which is why their strings are still crappy. 

GigaPiano was 1gig, impressive at the time but not so impressive if that 1gig was spread over 100 instruments. 

Ed


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## lux (Sep 23, 2010)

I think youre climbing mirrors (not sure thats how you say it in english). And, still:

1) you dont have the lib in your hands
2) you are expressing definitive judgements based on size and a few demos

You know, maybe i'm just wrong, but i tend to have the thing in my hands before expressing a complete and definitive comment. 

Its just that i tend to feel stupid doin that kind of "it sucks"..."well this other demo reveals some aspects which previous ones did not".."well, I admit it sounds good". Maybe that will not be the case. But still i try to resist to my own verbal incontinence and an inner killer attitude we all have. It looks like you earn personal benefits from your behaviour, so maybe that works for you.

Keeping a killer judgement on hold and simply limiting the range to how the demos sound to you would be imo a smart move and a new fresh approach to commenting stuff in a "mature" forum.

Luca


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## germancomponist (Sep 23, 2010)

I can`t wait for the next demos! :mrgreen: 

Just listen to my re-mastering mixing-test http://www.box.net/shared/680nd8nt7f.

There are moments in the mix where this lib sounds cool..., yes, no? o/~

Edit: Let me explain what I did. These special audio settings are not set to let a mix sound fantastic..., oh no, these settings are only to analyze a mix. With this settings one can hear all the smallest nuances in a mix. I use this always when I get audio from someone esle and have to master it. o-[][]-o


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 23, 2010)

Ed, you don't like the library. We get it. Give others a chance to weigh in, please.


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## Ed (Sep 23, 2010)

o


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## germancomponist (Sep 23, 2010)

Ed, give them (DVZ) a chance! I remember the very hard discussions about other libs after their first posted demos..... .


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## gsilbers (Sep 23, 2010)

germancomponist @ Thu Sep 23 said:


> Ed, give them (DVZ) a chance! I remember the very hard discussions about other libs after their first posted demos..... .





Morphestra rings a bell


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## choc0thrax (Sep 23, 2010)

gsilbers @ Thu Sep 23 said:


> germancomponist @ Thu Sep 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed, give them (DVZ) a chance! I remember the very hard discussions about other libs after their first posted demos..... .
> ...



Isn't Morphestra still pretty lousy though? No offense to Sample Logic, they make some great stuff like that Cinematic Guitar library which is basically sounding like the best product to be released this year.


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## germancomponist (Sep 23, 2010)

Morpestra.... , oh no....,


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## Mike Connelly (Sep 23, 2010)

Have they said if the library is 24 bit or 16? And does it use the new Kontakt compressed format?

The faq says they recorded no slurs so it looks like the legato is simulated somehow.

It also says the library requires a dongle, and it's one I've never heard before, WIBU CodeMeter. I can see that being a huge dealbreaker for many users, especially Kontakt guys with libraries that are just online authorization.


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## germancomponist (Sep 23, 2010)

24 bit or 16 bit.... ., I always get a smile in my face when I read this.... .

You know that the dynamic range at sample libraries is defined by 127 velocity layers?


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## Ashermusic (Sep 23, 2010)

germancomponist @ Thu Sep 23 said:


> Morpestra.... , oh no....,



You guys are nuts, Morphestra sounds amazing.


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## germancomponist (Sep 23, 2010)

Jay, with: "Morphestra..., oh no...." I only meant that I don`t meant this library for the example about a first demo here at Vi- Control. I know how great this lib sounds!


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## Ashermusic (Sep 23, 2010)

germancomponist @ Thu Sep 23 said:


> Jay, with: "Morphestra..., oh no...." I only meant that I don`t meant this library for the example about a first demo here at Vi- Control. I know how great this lib sounds!



Ah, my misunderstanding then, G.


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## Mike Connelly (Sep 23, 2010)

germancomponist @ Thu Sep 23 said:


> 24 bit or 16 bit.... ., I always get a smile in my face when I read this.... .
> 
> You know that the dynamic range at sample libraries is defined by 127 velocity layers?



That's not true. You have 127 velocities at which you can play back the sample, but that's different from the dynamic range of the recordings.

That said, I'm fine with 16 bit samples as long as they were all originally recorded at 24 bit (I was asking just to get an idea of how big the library actually is) and normalized with the volumes set back to the proper level in programming. That way the piece you create with the samples is effectively more than 24 bit.


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## Ed (Sep 23, 2010)

o


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## Ashermusic (Sep 23, 2010)

Ed @ Thu Sep 23 said:


> Ashermusic @ Thu Sep 23 said:
> 
> 
> > germancomponist @ Thu Sep 23 said:
> ...



Probably so, but Morphestra really only uses Kirk's samples as jumping off point for some pretty extraordinary sound possibilities.


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## Ed (Sep 23, 2010)

o


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 23, 2010)

This is really going so far off topic. I would actually love to split this topic into two - one specifically about about DVZ and the rest somewhere else. But maybe rather than me do that, let's please try to stay on topic?


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## EnTaroAdun (Sep 23, 2010)

@Ed

You make a lot of assumptions, but you don't know, how DVZ is actually built. You don't know, what was recorded and what not, and you don't know what's modeled and what not.
So I wouldn't judge too quickly. After all, we all don't know anything about the technic behind it, and what we heard yet were some quick live-play demos.

And Sample Modeling does not use _real_ synthesis. I'd really rather call it "modeling".


I can totally understand the skepticism .. I am very skeptical about this library myself. But making definite statements on something whithout really knowing any facts, doesn't make sense to me.
So I think we should just wait for some more demos. Or maybe they'll even release something like a playable demo .. with just 8GB of content this wouldn't be a problem after all.


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## gsilbers (Sep 23, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Thu Sep 23 said:


> germancomponist @ Thu Sep 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Morpestra.... , oh no....,
> ...



indeed. 

i guess not many remember the compression failed mp3 demos SL uploaded on their 1st morphestra demos which left a big negative impression of the library for a while. 

not the same like dvz of course but the 1st impression matters imo. 
so demos that dont sound up there with the others libs and plus they state it cost sooo much and took soo long to have an 8 gig library is just seems bad planning overall.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 23, 2010)

gsilbers @ Thu Sep 23 said:


> Ashermusic @ Thu Sep 23 said:
> 
> 
> > germancomponist @ Thu Sep 23 said:
> ...



First impressions should only be that and no more, a first impression, whether it is a sample library or a person. They are ephemeral and thoughtful people should always be prepared to re-evaluate when more evidence is provided.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 23, 2010)

Changed my mind. What I wrote was true but unnecessary and unkind.


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## Jaap (Sep 24, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Fri Sep 24 said:


> gsilbers @ Thu Sep 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Thu Sep 23 said:
> ...



This is true to a certain point of course, but from a marketing perspective the first impression is crucial though. We live in a market that is extremely dynamic, even the sample library market (they are facing a lot of competitors on the string market).

It's good to give them another chance, but what I would like to add as constructive critism to AudioImpressions that if they spend a lot of years and a lot of money to develop it to not rush out their product marketing wise.

It's good to show naked demos as I told earlier as well, but please also make sure you show some polished demos showing the library in it's full capacity. What is even more bad is that they don't give the visitor who visits the site for the first time (like me) an idea that the demos are "live" demos.

Such a shame if the first impression is wrong after all this hard work and big creativity they have put into this product.


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## shakuman (Sep 24, 2010)

Strange why the sale for USA and Canada only!! ? :evil: What about UK ? really strange.

Shakuman.


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## Waywyn (Sep 24, 2010)

Jan16 @ Fri Sep 24 said:


> shakuman @ Fri Sep 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Strange why the sale for USA and Canada only!! ? :evil: What about UK ? really strange.
> ...




That's exactly what I am saying. For instance, I am not a composer who is playing keyboard/piano that well ... to be honest I suck!! ... and I think there are lots of others who are no virtuosos on their instrument.

In the end I don't care how fast something is done. I mean I know that time is money, but I am a passionate composer and I play as much detail to a track as it needs (but of course having an eye on the deadline and to make compromises).


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## Wunderhorn (Sep 24, 2010)

frankly, the remark that SSDs were not recommended made me cringe.

when i got LASS i got also a new SSD to run it from and honestly, that was the most effective hardware upgrade (improvement for amount of $) i ever did. hands down!

it reminded me of a comment in the vienna forums when a vienna tech person said that the vienna instrument has a certain buffer size that will not be able to take advantage of the speed advantages of an SSD. after not receiving an answer about this being changed in future versions i kept my hands off of any vienna purchase considerations. i don't know if that has changed with the new pro instrument that they just released, it would be interesting to know.


----------



## Ai_Alan (Sep 30, 2010)

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to clear up some of the questions and comments in regards to the system specs and SSD vs Hard Disk. 

70 DVZ Strings is the equivalent of running 32 separate libraries on a single computer. In addition, each library receives all MIDI note on commands at the same time plus hundreds of cc value changes all at the same time every few milliseconds. In terms of computer stress it is in no way the same as running 32 MIDI channels with different note on times and relatively few cc value changes at the same time. The key factor is all MIDI data at the same time. When stress testing 70 DVZ Strings we also made further and separate tests by loading 32 different libraries from various manufacturers into the same computer and applied the same test. Whether it was 70 DVZ Strings or a combination of other libraries we concluded that the most consistent and reliable computer configuration under these specific conditions is: The Intel i7 860 with 8 GIG of RAM, an SSD for the local drive and a 10,000 RPM disc drive for the samples. We verified these tests with professional DAW builders who also made the identical tests and came up with the same conclusion.

We do not claim that our recommended spec is the only computer configuration that could possibly work. These are the tests we all made; these are the results.

Alan,


----------



## shakuman (Oct 1, 2010)

Hi All.
I will receive my copy next week and I will let you know how it looks ? BTW I own the whole strings library in the market except HS which is not support the microtuning! o-[][]-o 

Shakuman.


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## Ai_Alan (Oct 1, 2010)

shakuman @ Fri Oct 01 said:


> Hi All.
> I will receive my copy next week and I will let you know how it looks ? BTW I own the whole strings library in the market except HS which is not support the microtuning! o-[][]-o
> 
> Shakuman.



Just so others are aware, 

70 DVZ Strings is ideal for anyone creating music that needs microtonal tuning and is the only professional String library that has microtonal tuning with dynamic on-the-fly microtonal scale adjustment. Everywhere from the Middle East through the Far East this is very important. It’s also useful for bluenotes in Jazz compositions.

Thank you.

Alan


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## Ai_Alan (Oct 2, 2010)

The 70 DVZ Strings only require 8 GB of RAM. Remember though that it is required to have a separate computer dedicated only for the 70 DVZ Strings. If you do, then 24 GB is more than enough.

Alan


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## gsilbers (Oct 2, 2010)

so the whole sample library is 8 gigs right? 
if its so then why so little. i know the software does amazing things with midi but not having so many samples in a library like this seems like it could compromise the sounds. i am just echoing what many have said in this forum about the sound quality of this library. 

i remember listeing to the old verison at namm in 05'. did u guys take away samples?


----------



## twinsinmind (Oct 3, 2010)

As soon as i hear an Alex Pfeffer demo, i will tell you if i like it or not.

i have one questions for myself: a library that is started 7 years ago gives me some questions:

1) 7 years ago when you start sampling : you had the technology in mind of 7 years 
ago.?? 
2) the concurention back then was.... euh 2004 East west gold ??

3) a 20.000 $ package ... became -1500 $ because...?

4) True legato, knowing that this is not sampled 6 months ago?

5) if i see the specs then what changed with the library i saw a demo of a few years 
ago?

6) 8gb: will this blow my HS 320gb away.?

7) mmm  Yea lets downgrade my pc :D can i use my 486????



oh and can i run it from my 16 GB usb stick???????


o/~ o/~ o/~ o/~ o/~ o/~ o/~ 

Sorry if i am questioning alot , but for that money you should get answer on all your questions .....


my main and biggest question is: while i run HS smooth on a I7 860
with a velociraptor drive.....

Why this 8gb library (even if its midi action which is basically the most simple data you can imagine) would need a dedicated pc?

So you really mean when i buy this : i am forced to buy a second pc

or will this run on my mainpc too??????


----------



## germancomponist (Oct 3, 2010)

@twinsinmind,

do you think that we all now think that you, .... after writing this post, are a hero?


----------



## choc0thrax (Oct 3, 2010)

germancomponist @ Sun Oct 03 said:


> @twinsinmind,
> 
> do you think that we all now think that you, .... after writing this post, are a hero?



I wouldn't have thought so but now that you mention it he could very well be. I don't see him in tights and a cape per say, but I think it's safe to say he's at least achieved the level of small town hero or the urban metropolis equivalent: "subway hero".


----------



## Ai_Alan (Oct 4, 2010)

gsilbers @ Sat Oct 02 said:


> so the whole sample library is 8 gigs right?
> if its so then why so little. i know the software does amazing things with midi but not having so many samples in a library like this seems like it could compromise the sounds. i am just echoing what many have said in this forum about the sound quality of this library.
> 
> i remember listeing to the old verison at namm in 05'. did u guys take away samples?



Hi gslibers,

You are correct, the 70 DVZ Strings is 8 GB and no samples were taken away. The reason for this is to cut down on the massive amount of space it would take to sample each and every articulation and keep the goal of working with the library in real time a reality. The DVZ Core audio engine acts almost like a synth with ADSR control. Having said that, it is NOT a synth.

To go into a bit more detail:

The first two seconds of any string sample determines the style of the articulation. With the exception of pizz, Bartok pizz and col legno, from two seconds on, all the samples have looped bowings when notes are sustained. 

Regardless of whether it is legato or marcato, what follows the first two seconds of any string sample are long tones that are precisely the same; the only difference between legato and marcato is the sound of the attack. Our patented real-time divisi technology, DVZt®, allows us to abstract the first two seconds of every possible bow articulation and marry them to all the long tones in common. DVZ compacts the Hard Disk footprint and eliminates the need for loading and unloading different articulations. 

Shrinking the Hard Disk footprint and gaining the benefit our single load scenario are just a bonus attribute of our underlying DVZ design philosophy. We took this approach to give you greater creative control. 70 DVZ Strings’ DVZ process provides instant, and – most importantly – continuously variable articulations that are optimized into five MIDI tracks instead of dozens.

This process does not compromise the sounds. It makes things much easier and faster for the composer to control what they want to hear and what they want DVZ to do. 

Thank you,

Alan


----------



## Ai_Alan (Oct 4, 2010)

Hi twinsinmind,

In answer to your following questions; 


*1) 7 years ago when you start sampling : you had the technology in mind of 7 years 
ago.?? *

I'm not sure what you mean here, but yes the vision and idea for DVZ started 7 years ago. Was the technology available 7 years ago like it is today? No. Everything has advanced immensely technology wise in 7 years. It would have taken 3-4 computers 7 years ago to do what one computer can do today. 

To go into a bit more detail of why it took 7 years;

70 DVZ Strings is the first release of our global project that took 7 years. This timeframe and our combined R&D costs include: Our patented SPACE and patented DVZ Core Engine, the recording and producing of our Strings. This timeframe and cost also includes our libraries in progress: Orchestral Winds, World Winds, Antique Winds, Orchestral Brass, Concert Band, Orchestral Percussion, Latin Percussion, World percussion, Drums kits, Acoustic and Electric Guitars, World String Instruments, Acoustic and Electronic keyboards and a 100 rank pipe organ. These additional libraries are currently in beta form and we will announce their release when we they are ready for sale.




*2) the concurention back then was.... euh 2004 East west gold ??*

Sorry, I'm not sure what the question is. 

*3) a 20.000 $ package ... became -1500 $ because...?*

Advancements in technology. 

The reason we launched now instead of two years ago is largely because Kontakt now runs in 64 bit mode so we are no longer constrained to the 2 gig limitation of a 32 bit OS. Add Intel’s release of their Core i7 processors and Microsoft’s improvements over Vista with Windows 7, and we have the advancements in sampler hardware and software technology that together have now allowed us to introduce 70 DVZ Strings on a single computer. Had we launched two years ago it would have necessitated using three 32-bit sampler computers and we felt this was unacceptable. The two years delay also gave us time to perfect our library.

Keep in mind too that the package before included the library and all the necessary computer hardware. With knowing how expensive top of the line computers were back then, plus needing the necessary audio interfaces to transfer the audio, etc. It's easy for a package like this to get expensive. 



4) True legato, knowing that this is not sampled 6 months ago?

Again, I'm not sure what your question is. 

5) if i see the specs then what changed with the library i saw a demo of a few years 
ago?

See my answer the question number 3. The only thing that changed with the library was advancements in technology to make things run more efficient. 

*6) 8gb: will this blow my HS 320gb away.?*

I only answer DVZ related questions. Sorry. 

*7) mmm  Yea lets downgrade my pc :D can i use my 486????*

No. 

*oh and can i run it from my 16 GB usb stick???????*

No. 

*my main and biggest question is: while i run HS smooth on a I7 860
with a velociraptor drive.....

Why this 8gb library (even if its midi action which is basically the most simple data you can imagine) would need a dedicated pc?

So you really mean when i buy this : i am forced to buy a second pc

or will this run on my mainpc too??????*

It does not have anything to do with the 8GB size. It has everything to do with having the ability to have access to every articulation, every instrument, and in real time. The midi that is going back and forward from the DVZ application to the Kontakt Players is anything but simple. 

70 DVZ Strings is the equivalent of running 32 separate libraries on a single computer. In addition, each library receives all MIDI note on commands at the same time plus hundreds of cc value changes all at the same time every few milliseconds. In terms of computer stress it is in no way the same as running 32 MIDI channels with different note on times and relatively few cc value changes at the same time. The key factor is *all MIDI data at the same time.* If you were to attempt to run all the 70 DVZ Strings on your main pc, with your DAW running, you would max it out. So in answer to your question, you cannot run it on your main PC. 

Thank you,

Alan


----------



## germancomponist (Oct 4, 2010)

Ai_Alan @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> ...The first two seconds of any string sample determines the style of the articulation. With the exception of pizz, Bartok pizz and col legno, from two seconds on, all the samples have looped bowings when notes are sustained.
> 
> Regardless of whether it is legato or marcato, what follows the first two seconds of any string sample are long tones that are precisely the same; the only difference between legato and marcato is the sound of the attack. ...



Very interesting, Alan.

This reminds me to the days in the 80`s when Roland came out with their LA-Synthese. And it was great. Very cool what you do!

More demos, please! o/~ 

Gunther


----------



## Ed (Oct 4, 2010)

Ai_Alan @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> * Acoustic and Electronic keyboard*s and a 100 rank pipe organ. These additional libraries are currently in beta form and we will announce their release when we they are ready for sale.



Can I ask for a rough idea of how many megs/gigs per piano you sampled?

Just trying to get an idea. We already have lots and LOTS of pianos now so to offer us 5 I wonder what sort of thing you will doing differently. This may sound negative (not a surprise if you've seen my previous comments) but if you sampled as little as you did with the strings I do wonder what use they will have.


----------



## twinsinmind (Oct 4, 2010)

No , dear friends nothing to do with heroisme

just my questions, 


Thank you very much Alan for the answers. I am seriously intrested to buy this

that is why i really am asking hard questions as it is not a cheap buy.

But i am think of buying a second pc to run this


----------



## lux (Oct 4, 2010)

Welcome Alan, good attitude and charme. That helps and its appreciated, at least here.

Quick question:

have you guys ever considered the option of selling a version of the lib which has premixed versions for typical ensembles, like 11 and 18 violin players and such? That would maybe represent a less flexible option but could be helpful to reduce resource demanding for users like me which tend to have a "typical" orchestral asset.

Would it feasable technically? Would it reduce the need for a dedicate computer?

Thanks
Luca


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 4, 2010)

@LUX 

I posted a series of questions for Alan that he answered at this thread:
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... 6&start=35

The string ensemble size is determined by clicking "desks" (aka music stands") on/off.

RE: A dedicated machine. Alan can correct my observation, but I asked the question in such a way that you could set up a dedicated 64-bit Kontakt system but run 70 DVZ Strings first, record tracks, then work with the remaining Kontakt/Vienna libraries in the system.

For a dedicated system, not much is needed. If not the i7-860, get an i7-920 or i7-950, small SSD drive for the C drive, and a 10000RPM drive for DVZ. If you're putting other libraries on the drive, make sure you get a motherboard capable of going up to 24GB, but ONLY 8GB is needed for DVZ.


----------



## lux (Oct 4, 2010)

Peter Alexander @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> @LUX
> 
> I posted a series of questions for Alan that he answered at this thread:
> http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... 6&start=35
> ...



Thanks Peter, but my question is different. I know size is determined activating desks, but, as i understand, this feature is probably the main reason why the library is so demanding in terms of cpu power. 

My question was if it would be possible to release a pre-mixed version with given ensemble sizes, where you loose the add/subtract players feature but you get all the other stuff, expecially the single patch performance thing.

Luca


----------



## Craig Sharmat (Oct 4, 2010)

you could create templates for this I would assume.


----------



## Ai_Alan (Oct 4, 2010)

lux @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> Welcome Alan, good attitude and charme. That helps and its appreciated, at least here.
> 
> Quick question:
> 
> ...



Hi Lux,

First, thank you for the warm welcome. If ever I am not answering your question directly, please let me know. 

In regards to your question lux;

We have no immediate plans to divide 70 DVZ Strings in half and sell it that way. The 70 DVZ Strings was designed to give composers and musicians complete fò#°   é¥#°   é¥#°   é¥#°   é¥#°   é¥#°   é¥ #°   é¥!#°   é¥"#°   é¥##°   é¥$#±   é¥%#±   é¥&#±   é¥'#±   é¥(#±   é¥)#±   é¥*#±   é¥+#±   é¥,#±   é¥-#±   é¥.#±   é¥/#±   é¥0#±   é¥1#±   é¥2#±   é¥3#±   é¥4#±   é¥5#±   é¥6#±   é¥7#±   é¥8#±   é¥9#±   é¥:#±   é¥;#±   é¥<#±   é¥=#±   é¥>#±   é¥?#±   é¥@#±   é¥A#±   é¥B#²   é¥C#²   é¥D#²   é¥E#²   é¥F#²   é¥G#²   é¥H#²   é¥I#²   é¥J#²   é¥K#²   é¥


----------



## Ai_Alan (Oct 6, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> Ai_Alan @ Mon Oct 04 said:
> 
> 
> > * Acoustic and Electronic keyboard*s and a 100 rank pipe organ. These additional libraries are currently in beta form and we will announce their release when we they are ready for sale.
> ...



Hi Ed,

Technical specs of the piano libraries will be released as it gets closer to launching. 

Thanks again,

Alan


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## Ai_Alan (Oct 7, 2010)

Peter Alexander @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> @LUX
> 
> I posted a series of questions for Alan that he answered at this thread:
> http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... 6&start=35
> ...



Hi Peter,

You are correct, but I would caution on the idea of running other libraries together with DVZ. Remember that running the 70 DVZ Strings is not one library, it is in fact 32 libraries playing all at once.

There are 32 desks, which means that we are using 32 MIDI channels within Kontakt Player. Every time you play a single note, and that note falls within the ranges of all five sections, you are actually playing 32 MIDI channels at the same time. 

So if you are running the 70 DVZ Strings library, plus other libraries, you may get poor results. 

Thanks again,

Alan


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## Ai_Alan (Oct 7, 2010)

Hi everyone, 

There seems to be some confusion going on that the 70 DVZ Strings CAN run on the same computer as your sequencer. This is of course false and has not been tested or approved by Audio Impressions. 

I would like to remind anyone who is interested in purchasing the 70 DVZ Strings to review the technical specs and setup on the Audio Impressions site: http://www.audioimpressions.com/how-it-works/setup/specs (http://www.audioimpressions.com/how-it- ... etup/specs) 

If you have any questions about a computer your considering using, it would be worth sending an email to Ai support first. 

Thank you all, 

Alan


----------



## Peter Alexander (Oct 7, 2010)

Ai_Alan @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Mon Oct 04 said:
> 
> 
> > @LUX
> ...



Hi Alan, I think you misread my observation. "... set up a dedicated 64-bit Kontakt system BUT run 70 DVZ Strings first, record tracks, CLOSE DOWN 70 DVZ Strings, THEN work with the remaining Kontakt/Vienna libraries in the system."

I didn't suggest running both simultaneously, nor did I suggest putting your sequencing program on it.

Just to clarify.

PA


----------



## Ai_Alan (Oct 8, 2010)

Peter Alexander @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> Ai_Alan @ Thu Oct 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Peter Alexander @ Mon Oct 04 said:
> ...



Ah, sorry about that Peter. Thank you for clarifying. 

The running DVZ on the same computer as your sequencer was not from you, I just wanted to clarify that issue as some were asking outside of the forum. 

Thanks again,

Alan


----------



## Ai_Alan (Oct 13, 2010)

Hi everyone,

Just to let you know that there is a promotion going on that if you buy 70 DVZ Strings by Oct 31st, you get AudioPort Universal ($129 value) FREE. Enter Coupon Code: CC-10.

Thanks again,

Alan


----------



## jamwerks (Oct 13, 2010)

[quote/]The first two seconds of any string sample determines the style of the articulation. With the exception of pizz, Bartok pizz and col legno, from two seconds on, all the samples have looped bowings when notes are sustained. [/quote]

Sound fascinating, and close to how the sound is produced. Reminds me a bit of the Sample-modeling approach thought it may not be that alike.

I can see how this technology would work well for winds and brass. Will those libraries also need dedicated computers? Do you have ETA's for them? o-[][]-o


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## Ai_Alan (Oct 13, 2010)

jamwerks @ Wed Oct 13 said:


> [quote/]The first two seconds of any string sample determines the style of the articulation. With the exception of pizz, Bartok pizz and col legno, from two seconds on, all the samples have looped bowings when notes are sustained.



Sound fascinating, and close to how the sound is produced. Reminds me a bit of the Sample-modeling approach thought it may not be that alike.

I can see how this technology would work well for winds and brass. Will those libraries also need dedicated computers? Do you have ETA's for them? o-[][]-o[/quote]

The DVZ technology really shines in the Brass and Woodwinds. The DVZ Brass and Woodwinds will run together on a separate computer from the 70 DVZ Strings. Look for it to be released early 2011. 

Thanks again,

Alan


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## Ai_Alan (Oct 19, 2010)

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to give you a few new updates. 

It has now supported by Audio Impressions that higher quality solid state drives (SSDs) with Vertex 2 speed are now useable for streaming our samples. 

We also have specified a "super" version of the sampler computer for exceptional performance and it will be capable of running the 70 DVZ Strings and one or even two additional libraries when we release them. We'll have more info shortly after we do more extensive tests.

You can view the system specs here;

http://www.audioimpressions.com/how-it-works/setup/specs (http://www.audioimpressions.com/how-it- ... etup/specs)

Thank you again everyone,

Alan


----------



## Peter Alexander (Oct 19, 2010)

Ai_Alan @ Tue Oct 19 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Just wanted to give you a few new updates.
> 
> ...



To clarify, you're saying that this super system will ultimately allow the customer to run 70 DVZ Strings plus DVZ brass or woodwinds on the same system?

Not libraries from other companies.


----------



## Ben H (Oct 19, 2010)

EDIT


----------



## Ai_Alan (Oct 20, 2010)

Peter Alexander @ Tue Oct 19 said:


> Ai_Alan @ Tue Oct 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi everyone,
> ...




Correct, 

The super system will allow the customer to run 70 DVZ Strings AND one or two of our other libraries. For example, the DVZ Brass and DVZ Winds. 

We have not tested our libraries running on the same system as other libraries, so we wouldn't recommend it at this point. 

Thank you,

Alan


----------



## Ai_Alan (Nov 4, 2010)

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to give you a quick update on things.

70 DVZ Strings now runs on a single quad-core computer - even a powerful laptop - using the lastest release of Vienna Ensemble Pro as the host.

This also means that you can now run 70 DVZ Strings in addition to other applications (Sequencer, Other Libraries, etc.) OR our Winds, Brass, and Percussion libraries (in development) on an i7 Series computer.

Using Vienna Ensemble Pro to host our library's Kontakt Player VST's makes it possible for us to take full advantage of the four (or more) cores such as the Intel Core 2 Quad.

Please see our website for the latest published specifications www.audioimpressions.com. 

Thanks everyone,

Alan


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## George Caplan (Nov 6, 2010)

i think this thing sounds good. i would take it especially as it seems to be aimed at players rather than programers although iwouldnt be that interested in the speed aspect. impressive.


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## Craig Sharmat (Nov 6, 2010)

Hi Alan,

Have you had a chance to run it on the latest Mac Pro?

The demo with Chris playing the entire orchestra at one time is astounding!

I think this is finally a real player in the market.


----------



## Ashermusic (Nov 6, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Sat Nov 06 said:


> just as there is complete nailed realism elsewhere.



A highly over-rated attribute in any library.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 6, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Sat Nov 06 said:


> for realism read - texture life and clarity. sometimes the staccs have got a bit of bow on wood. sometimes the strings sound like they have air and warmth together. without that 'realism' and life libraries are hard to make work. i don't think it is over-rated at all. otherwise i would never get past the warm strings patch on my old JV1080 orchestral board.



And I could play you a lot of cues where the strings from that board sounded warmer, more emotional, and more human than cues posted here with some of the more highly touted new libraries. 

How they are composed, orchestrated and mixed is far more a factor than how" real" it sounds.

I had a nice lunch yesterday with new forum member "David Story" and we were both talking about how frequently adding i.e an analog synth patch to a well sampled cello made it sound less like real celli but better to our ears. We also agreed that when composing with samples, often the aesthetic goal should not be "cello" but "cello-ish."

Bottom line, if one likes the way DVZ sounds, and I think I do, then how "real" it does or does not sound should be a small factor in one's purchasing decision. If it sounds "good" it is good.


----------



## José Herring (Nov 6, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sat Nov 06 said:


> stevenson-again @ Sat Nov 06 said:
> 
> 
> > for realism read - texture life and clarity. sometimes the staccs have got a bit of bow on wood. sometimes the strings sound like they have air and warmth together. without that 'realism' and life libraries are hard to make work. i don't think it is over-rated at all. otherwise i would never get past the warm strings patch on my old JV1080 orchestral board.
> ...



I agree. Often the things touted in libraries to make them "more realistic" often are things that most players try to get away from. Legato is one of them. I have a hard time with legato connections in libraries because of the fact that they seem to be so accentuated. In real life players generally tend to make less of the effect because they see it as a flaw (also most legatos in libraries tend to be at a fixed tempo). LASS on the other hand seems to have captured this in the most natural way I've heard so far.

As for mixing synth strings with samples, often the effect sounds better than pure samples. I just finished a film where the specific instruction by the director was, " I don't care if it sounds realistic, nobody would really know, I just want it to sound good". I took this and ran with it. The most expressive and dramatic cue in the film was done by mixing SISS with a synth string patch. Very expressive. That's what people want anyway.

My main beef is that none of these string libraries to my ears comes even close to sounding like a real string section. So, you're left with a balancing act. I err on the side of expressiveness. At first I erred on the side of sounding "real" but that was so limiting and you had to adjust your writing to fit the samples so much that I just had to abandon that idea almost completely. Then I started really listening to a lot of TV music using samples by well established composers like Jeff Beal and Micheal Levine and I found that none of their sampled work sounded that real to me, but oh man does it sound musical and good.

That's why DVZ imo has my interest. Aside from some perceived muddiness in the lower mids I like the expressiveness of the library. I find that it does capture a lot of the expressiveness of a live string section which is what I feel Chris was going for.

There are two things that make things artificial sounding imo. 1) being the sound quality of the strings and 2) having a set of dead samples that may sound real, but lacking in musicality. I've not heard many sampled works that were able to achieve both a realistic sound and a musically expressive sound. Not that I'd even want samples to achieve both. So given the choice I find that most producers and directors want their sampled score to sound musical. If you throw a little synth string in there to help achieve a more lyrical connection of notes then so be it. 

Craig Sharmat played for me a piece a few years back that only used the strings in Atmosphere ( which I think may be included in Omnisphere). It sounded wonderful to my ears. I doubt he'd post it here because people would say that the strings sounded synthetic. But to me the strings sounded "stringish" and the music was touching and expressive. Good enough for me.


----------



## noiseboyuk (Nov 6, 2010)

So much is in the ear of the beholder. That's an incredible demo of the whole orchestra playing, but I must admit more than any other DVZ demo the sustained strings sounded synthy to me. I get the point that this needn't matter so much... but what can I say? For me it did.

Some of the stuff I've heard from HS on the other hand - and LASS for that matter - does sound amazingly real and not at all synthy. I remember in the first video demo of HS there was a live patch - it sounded wonderfully expressive to my ears and pretty damn real.

I don't intend to do DVZ down btw, I'm extremely impressed with most of what I've heard, and that whole-orch demo is jaw-dropping! I'm just focusing on one aspect of that one demo.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 6, 2010)

josejherring @ Sat Nov 06 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sat Nov 06 said:
> 
> 
> > stevenson-again @ Sat Nov 06 said:
> ...



Brother Jose', thanking you for taking a pew


----------



## EnTaroAdun (Nov 6, 2010)

I still miss proper demos.


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## stevenson-again (Nov 6, 2010)

i think you guys are missing a bigger broader point.

given any single intention at realizing a piece of music in a certain way, how should it be realized. i too have actively chosen a synth string approach as opposed to a natural string approach because that is what was called for. it was an artistic decision, and a legitimate one. but i don't want to be limited in my creative decisions by libraries that do not satisfy because flaws in the character in the sound draw attention to themselves in way that is not natural and musical.

if the goal is to produce an orchestral score with samples, it should not be because you *can* produce an orchestral score samples, but because an orchestral score is called for. in which case you need samples that will help realize that and you have to look for what can give you the most flexibiltiy and the least amount of work. i have to say if you attempt something without the right tools you run the risk of making a mess of things.

putting it another way - when i talk about realism, i am talking about natural sounding musicality that helps realize what is you are trying to achieve. if something gets in the way of that, i think that is not good. you can of course achieve an excellent musical effect with strings that are obviously not real - it has its own character in itself - but it may be not what is called for. i think DVZ is aiming for a natural sounding string band sound - as natural as possible judging by the way it is constructed. therefore we want the effect to sound natural and musical in the live orchestral sense. that is not an overrated goal.


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## José Herring (Nov 6, 2010)

I think we're talking about the say things Rohan, just worded differently. Music is always so hard to talk about in words.



Jose


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## Ai_Alan (Dec 3, 2010)

Hi everyone, 

Just wanted to give you a few small updates.

If you are in the LA area, 70 DVZ Strings is now being demoed and available for anyone to try at: 

*West LA Music - Universal city.*
West LA Music
3501 Cahuenga Blvd. West
Los Angeles, CA 90068
Phone: (323) 845-1145

Also, Audio Impressions will be hosing a seminar at Annex Pro
in Vancouver for CGFC members
Saturday, December 11th, 2010 from 1pm to 3:30pm.

*ANNEX|PRO*
#220 - 49 Dunlevy Ave
Vancouver, BC V6A 3A3
Phone: (604) 682-6639

Thank you again everyone, 

Alan


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## Ai_Alan (Dec 10, 2010)

Hi everyone,

Just to give you all a quick update.

There is a 6-Minute tutorial video on the Audio Impressions home page called The DVZ Advantage: www.audioimpressions.com. This video gives a nice intro into what exactly DVZ is, how it works and why it's different from everything else. More tutorial videos are on the way.

Thanks again everyone,

Alan


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## Ed (Dec 10, 2010)

> There is a 6-Minute tutorial video on the Audio Impressions home page called The DVZ Advantage



...well... it does sound... "fast"... ~o)

I guess if you're an orchestrator and would rather use something that sounds more accurate than anything else available for scoring programs, this would be quite good. Otherwise... the compromise of speed vs sound quality is just too great for me to see any other use for it.

I'm still really confused at the logic of this thing. He says at the end the best thing is that you only have to use 4 tracks so its faster. Well for me the system he suggests, DVZ, is not faster at all. In fact its infinitely slower because no matter how long I spend on it, it will sound bad...

That's all I really hò  ¿   äTW  ¿   äUL  ¿   äU§  ¿   äVÊ  ¿   äWX  ¿   äYD  ¿   äY  ¿   ä[…  ¿   ä\  ¿


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## wesbender (Dec 10, 2010)

I like the full orchestra demo simply because I could see that as a very easy/enjoyable way to sketch out ideas. I couldn't ever see myself using any of those sounds for a final mock-up though.

And regarding the strings alone, I definitely agree with Ed - they just don't sound very good in direct comparison to some of the other libraries out there. Anyone who thinks they could approach the realism and overall quality of LASS or HS is absolutely crazy.

Anyway, like I said, I could see these used as efficient sketch tools, or even in a live rig for so many of the bands these days with orchestral parts. But for a traditional mock-up, the realism/overall quality is severely lacking.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 10, 2010)

Ed @ Fri Dec 10 said:


> Ashermusic @ Fri Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, it just bewilders me that when people listen to demos like this or Kirk Hunters they then will say it sounds "bad." I can totally understand "I prefer the sound of Library X, or Y, or Z" but "bad" ? Come on.
> ...



"Deal with it?" Like its important to my life? Puh-leeze.

My guess is Marten or TJ would not say "bad", probably "not to my taste."And yes if one cannot make any sampled strings sound good, it does make their opinion rather less valuable IMHO. I am not saying you cannot, I just don't remember off-hand an example where you did. So I wanted to hear what you were using in a way you liked as a frame of reference. 

I approached you in a non-agressive way. Too bad you could not find it in yourself to respond in kind.


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## Ed (Dec 10, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Fri Dec 10 said:


> And yes if one cannot make any sampled strings sound good, it does make their opinion rather less valuable IMHO. I am not saying you cannot, I just don't remember off-hand an example where you did. So I wanted to hear what you were using in a way you liked as a frame of reference.
> 
> I approached you in a non-agressive way. Too bad you could not find it in yourself to respond in kind.




You misread my response as aggressive, I guess its my fault for writing "deal with it", I didn't mean it that way. 

I could show you some music I've done I feel easily shows strings sounding much better than any of the strings in DVZ. Remember we've heard DVZ playing complex pieces and simple pieces and what it sounds like when its just playing off a keyboard. I know for a fact that other libs sound better. I know because I've used them, I know because I have heard and watched all their demos. I understand that DVZ does things those libraries don't do (with the possible exception of LASS) but that does not change the quality of the sounds. Replace my comments about AI and assume I wrote it about GPO, I really don't see much difference in sound quality. So while i could show you some music I feel you'll just pick at it and say that while it sounds better it can't do things DVZ can do, or I havent shown you some spectacular orchestration which shows its an unfair comparison or whatever. I don't see the point of going down that road, if you think DVZ Strings sounds good, thats great, but personally I'm very confused such a product can have such a poor sound quality. This latest demo has made that even more obvious to me.
*
EDIT:*

Actually screw it then... at the risk of being told my orchestration sucks or whatever by you here's some unfinished thing I did back* in 2007*, I used a custom strings library but it had very basic programming. The violin spiccs is only one dynamic and I only used violins and cellos in the whole thing. The other library I used was QLSO Silver cellos, since I didnt have any other fast cello sustains and some roland full strings for some of the sustains

http://www.edbradshawmusic.com/EB_Repetitions_Vr2.mp3 (www.edbradshawmusic.com/EB_Repetitions_Vr2.mp3)

I have gotten used to what I know will sound good or not over the years, Ive heard more than enough to know that DVZ strings does not sound good, especially these exposed demos. I do not have this reaction to LASS or HS demos done in the same way, so you cannot say that its just because its an out of the box demo. Sometimes im uncertain, like I am with LASS, how well I would work with it but othertimes i just know nothing would sound good.

I give libraries a break if they can show me at least one thing they are good at. VOXOS sucks at aggressive stuff, I can see that, but is worth it because of the amazing soft legato. In terms of sound, DVZ shows me nothing. All it does it provide an orchestrator a better more accurate sounding sample set to use. Thats it, as far as I'm concerned. Now sure that may be very useful but lets not pretend it sounds good. If you dress that sound up in a $100 product no one would be surprised, or be able to tell the difference. Miroslav, Advanced orchestra, Ive heard better things from both of these products. Even some GPO demos have impressed me more

... Now I really feel like Simon Ravn :lol:


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## Ashermusic (Dec 10, 2010)

Ed @ Fri Dec 10 said:


> Actually screw it then... at the risk of being told my orchestration sucks or whatever by you here's some unfinished thing I did back* in 2007*, I used a custom strings library but it had very basic programming. The violin spiccs is only one dynamic and I only used violins and cellos in the whole thing. The other library I used was QLSO Silver cellos, since I didnt have any other fast cello sustains and some roland full strings for some of the sustains
> 
> http://www.edbradshawmusic.com/EB_Repetitions_Vr2.mp3 (www.edbradshawmusic.com/EB_Repetitions_Vr2.mp3)
> 
> ...



Well you should know by know I never comment publicly about another composer's work here so there is no chance I would write something to knock your work just to discredit you. Thank you for posting your piece however as now I have a sense of what you like. 

I will only say that DVZ sounds nothing like GPO-like quality to me and I own Hollywood Strings, LASS, Kirk Hunter's Concert Strings II, Sonivox Orchestral Strings, and some VSL so I have a good frame of reference to compare it to.

But of course, it is subjective.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 10, 2010)

Hmm.... must admit I too wasn't impressed with the sound in this demo, and that's from someone who's thought criticisms of DVZ were way too harsh before. It's those basic sustains... they do sound dated, flat and synthy to me, yeah a little like GPO, though that may be stretching the point a little far.

The divisi functionality looks great, there's a lot to like. No-one seems to have real-world experience yet, so hard to compare with the resource-challenging HS in terms of ease of use for a broad setup.


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## Ai_Alan (Jan 10, 2011)

Hi everyone,

Just letting you know that there is a new video on the Audio Impression site called "How it comes together". This video shows all the components and software involved in running 70 DVZ Strings, including connections to your sequencer. It is a semi-technical overview to explain how everything works together.

You can visit the site here: www.audioimpressions.com 

Thanks everyone,

Alan


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## Ed (Jan 12, 2011)

"This is why it sounds like a real orchestra, because it works like a real orchestra" -Chris Stone.


:| No comment.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 12, 2011)

Ed @ Wed Jan 12 said:


> "This is why it sounds like a real orchestra, because it works like a real orchestra" -Chris Stone.
> 
> 
> :| No comment.



Ed, it may not make him right and you wrong but one thing I can tell you for a fact is that Chris has conducted a lot more orchestral sessions than you, so personally if I were you and found myself disagreeing with someone with that much experience, I would be asking myself "What am I maybe missing here that he knows?" rather than "why is he so wrong?"

Just sayin'


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## stonzthro (Jan 12, 2011)

It's not perfect, but there are some very rich sounding moments in the demo Chris played.

Certainly worth looking at more in depth.


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## Ed (Jan 13, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Wed Jan 12 said:


> Ed @ Wed Jan 12 said:
> 
> 
> > "This is why it sounds like a real orchestra, because it works like a real orchestra" -Chris Stone.
> ...



Maybe he has lost his mind, because it doesn't sound real. Just sayin'


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## gsilbers (Jan 13, 2011)

i have to agree with Ed that it doesn't sound good. .

now, it could just be that the company is just terrible at making demos that make DVZ sound good. 
i heard DVZ like 6 years ago at namm and remember it sounded great but the specs where tooooooo much. 
so i still have a reasonable doubt on the samples until i hear more user demos.


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## Ai_Alan (Jan 20, 2011)

Hi guys,

For those of you in the LA area, Audio Impressions is doing a clinic at West LA Music on January 27th from 7-9 PM. 

This is a great opportunity for those who have questions, on the fence about purchasing or just want to hear 70 DVZ Strings in person. 

Details of the clinic can be found here:

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa3 ... Clinic.jpg

You do need to RSVP for the clinic, which you can do here:

http://www.westlamusic.com/ai (www.westlamusic.com/ai)

Thank you everyone,

Alan


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## chimuelo (Jan 20, 2011)

A dear friend who has ears like a bat just returned from NAMM recently since he never leaves right away and couldn't stop talking about DVZ.
I am very intereseted now since I know this guy never repeats himself.

Guess the live demos are limited to the show and the LA area, so I guess I will wait until he buys it for his studio.
The guy doing the demo must have been really good, or the sounds are, or a combination of both.

Just thought I'd let you know this guy has owned and used samplers since the 70's and even leased an N.E.D. Synclavier 256 so he knows samples/physmod.
I am anxious to see what I missed at NAMM.


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## gsilbers (Jan 20, 2011)

chimuelo @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> A dear friend who has ears like a bat just returned from NAMM recently since he never leaves right away and couldn't stop talking about DVZ.
> I am very intereseted now since I know this guy never repeats himself.
> 
> Guess the live demos are limited to the show and the LA area, so I guess I will wait until he buys it for his studio.
> ...



which goes along with my thoery that the company must suck at demos. cause i heard it also at namm a long time ago and remember they where awesome but only be afforded by big time pros. 
now the demos come out and sound like an old synth. 
maybe the focus is so much on making it fast that looses the focus on quality. 
on the other hand,.. hollywood strings sound better in the demos than when i tried it. 
still good, but better in the demos.


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## Ed (Jan 20, 2011)

Could it be that NAMM isn't a great place to hear nuance and maybe now you can hear it on your own speakers without background noise, you notice what it really sounds like?


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## gsilbers (Jan 20, 2011)

Ed @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> Could it be that NAMM isn't a great place to hear nuance and maybe now you can hear it on your own speakers without background noise, you notice what it really sounds like?



maybe. just too many variables. the best solution imo would be to do a terapack sort of deal that way u can try it out for 15 days by just buying the hard drive. 
if u dont like it then u get a hard drive about at normal cost. if u do u buy dvz license only. 

cause it might be crappy sounding demos, could be crappy listening environment at namm. could be crappy marketing strategy of focusing on the "fastness" it. 

so ive been waiting for user demos but with all the comments that dvz sound bad , those demos could never happen.


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## Mike Connelly (Jan 20, 2011)

Has anyone here bought it?


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## Ai_Alan (Feb 1, 2011)

Hi everyone,

Just to let you know, you can now purchase 70 DVZ Strings WITH a custom computer PC. 

Audio Impressions now introduces AiDAW.

With AiDAW, there is no need to build your own PC and install 3rd party software, it's all included in your AiDAW and is tested before shipping. You will just need to connect it to your sequencer computer.

AiDAW is set up with enough memory to install upcoming Audio Impressions' libraries (Brass, Woodwinds, Percussion).

Your AiDAW includes the following:
HARDWARE:
- Case (2U rack with a fan-noise suppressing paint and heat sync rack ears)
- Silent fan
- Mouse and Keyboard
- OS: WIN7 Pro 64-bit
- CPU: Intel i7 870
- Gigabyte Motherboard
- 2 x internal SATA II Solid State drives (60 GB) 250 MB/sec
- Memory: 16 Gigabytes DDR3 RAM
- Video card (Nvidia 8400 GS)
- 270 watt power supply

SOFTWARE:
- 70 DVZ Strings
- Vienna Ensemble Pro (with Steinberg e-Licenser key)
- Music Lab's MIDI over LAN CP or Nerd's IP MIDI (depending on your sequencer)

Please visit http://www.audioimpressions.com/store for more information and price. 

Thank you all,

Alan


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