# 3 weeks of this kind of music



## Mads Skønberg (Aug 25, 2017)

Please listen and comment if you want to.

I have made this type of music in 3 weeks now.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Aug 25, 2017)

Hi Mads !

I think this track has a nice atmosphere. The main motif popping at 1:06 and 1:48 is simple and beautiful (simple is not a bad word).

In my humble opinion, the main thing you could try to improve is the horizontal writing. To put things simply, vertical writing is "just" chords following each other. Horizontal writing is the art of voice leading, the art of writing nice and musical individual lines for each instrument, that follow these chords without too much movement.

That's what I'm missing in your track with the strings. Even if the chords are nice, strings are sometimes confusing as there is no clear melodic line for each section.

Hope this was clear, and of course this is just my personal opinion ! I think this is great for 3 weeks, though


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## Mads Skønberg (Aug 25, 2017)

whitewasteland said:


> Hi Mads !
> 
> I think this track has a nice atmosphere. The main motif popping at 1:06 and 1:48 is simple and beautiful (simple is not a bad word).
> 
> ...



Thank you very much, both for your time and for your comment. This is really helpful for me. I also have a friend asking me to work more with the dynamics on the strings, and I agree very much with both him and you.

Thank you again


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## AdamAlake (Aug 27, 2017)

Mads Skønberg said:


> Please listen and comment if you want to.
> 
> I have made this type of music in 3 weeks now.




Lots of trouble there. I recommend you to watch Mike's videos:



And take his classes http://mikeverta.com .

You need to change your approach and learn a LOT - and that will not be achieved through taking some advice here and there.


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## Mads Skønberg (Aug 27, 2017)

Ok? And exactly What do you think is so bad?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 27, 2017)

Hi Mads,
I also took a listen to your piece and I guess you want to create some emotional melodic piece with some silky orchestration and vocals which I think that you set actually the mood right. But what takes me of pretty much here is the structure because in my humble opinion there is very less of a cohesion in your piece and I guess this was what Adam was talking about. You know, I don´t want to sound like a smartass but let me tell you:
We humans are highly pattern cognitive people which means that we react on a pattern which we recognize and we like patterns a lot because why: Yes, because it lets us connect to your idea and we can understand what you mean. So you should bare in mind that not only you understand your track (which you certainly do), but more that audience is able to follow your ideas. A pattern can:
1. be a rhythmic thing. Think of dance music for example. Why you connect to a beat? Because there is a pattern which repeats and sets the vibe.
2. Lets take a melody: Why you connect to it? Because in a melody is a pattern which means that the melody has a disctinct intervallic motion or scalewise motion, and the notes have a rhythm and the melody has elements which repeat, which helps to make a connection to the audience.

Both things are hard to follow in your piece. Sure you have rhythmic elements and melodies, but they are very loose and they often don´t outline a strong chord progression. This is another factor: Good melodies often outline important chord tones which are based on strong chord progressions. What I would recommend to you is to simplify. Just try first to write really short pieces, e.g. 30 - 60 seconds with 2 sections which. First motif and second one which somehow builds on the first one.


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## AdamAlake (Aug 27, 2017)

Mads Skønberg said:


> Ok? And exactly What do you think is so bad?



Basically no actual development throughout the piece, and when there is a semblance of some, it is random and cause clashing elements. You use that out of place cymbal riser instead of creating tension compositionally and orchestrationally. There is no contrast, you just keep adding more and more stuff that really serves no purpose and results in a homogenous blend of colors which do not necessarily fit together.

Music is a language and as such you need to be clear about what you want to say and make sure to introduce everything you plan on telling your listeners. In your piece, you are not being clear about what you want to say, you start off with a simple melodic pattern which is repeated way too many times to keep anyone interested, then you add a strange counter melody that does not complement the main motive, so now not only is the listener bored, they are also confused.

There is no real sense of pacing, you keep building something up and then it fades into nothing, you cannot set up something you do not plan on delivering.

Seriously, learn from Mike Verta and your pieces will start to make sense in no time.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 27, 2017)

But Mads again: What Adam and I mention here IS TOTAL Normal...believe me: Everybody goes through such process and one thing: we are still practising all exact that same things which Adam and I mentioned. I do that everyday. So just to bare in mind: Our little feedback is just constructive meaning in a good manner, and when you practise it you will get better by the time. I assure you that


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## Mads Skønberg (Aug 27, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> But Mads again: What Adam and I mention here IS TOTAL Normal...believe me: Everybody goes through such process and one thing: we are still practising all exact that same things which Adam and I mentioned. I do that everyday. So just to bare in mind: Our little feedback is just constructive meaning in a good manner, and when you practise it you will get better by the time. I assure you that



I think I will leave this forum. 

If everyone makes the same type of music, and everyone should do the same - who is bored then?

Thanks.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 27, 2017)

Mads Skønberg said:


> I think I will leave this forum.
> 
> If everyone makes the same type of music, and everyone should do the same - who is bored then?
> 
> Thanks.



I am not sure if I understand correctly. I wasn´t talking about that everybody has to do write in the same idiom or style of music. Please read what I have written. I was saying that it is _also important to make a connection to the audience_, isn´t it?


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## Mads Skønberg (Aug 27, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I am not sure if I understand correctly. I wasn´t talking about that everybody has to do write in the same idiom or style of music. Please read what I have written. I was saying that it is _also important to make a connection to the audience_, isn´t it?


Yes I agree!

But If everyone has to do AS this Mike says.. then all music will be the same right?


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## AdamAlake (Aug 27, 2017)

Mads Skønberg said:


> Yes I agree!
> 
> But If everyone has to do AS this Mike says.. then all music will be the same right?



No. This is about principles, not the actual "sound" of the composition. Did all the great composers such as John Williams, Igor Stravinsky, Gustav Holst etc, follow these principles? Yes. Does their music sound all the same? Hell no. You are very much encouraged to find your own sound, but you should make sure that people will want to listen to it.


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## AdamAlake (Aug 27, 2017)

Mads Skønberg said:


> I think I will leave this forum.
> 
> If everyone makes the same type of music, and everyone should do the same - who is bored then?
> 
> Thanks.


¨
Also, I would like you to explain this: if you do not want to hear critique, what was the reason for posting, collecting compliments?


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## Mads Skønberg (Aug 27, 2017)

AdamAlake said:


> ¨
> Also, I would like you to explain this: if you do not want to hear critique, what was the reason for posting, collecting compliments?


No, of course I want critique. But I think your post was negative, not constructive. Big differense there.


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## AdamAlake (Aug 27, 2017)

Mads Skønberg said:


> No, of course I want critique. But I think your post was negative, not constructive. Big differense there.



There is no difference there, feedback being negative does not exclude it from being constructive. If you disagree that the feedback was constructive, you are very welcome to justify that claim.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Aug 27, 2017)

Sorry @AdamAlake but I think your first posts were quite brutal indeed. The guy is just starting out, why being so harsh ? @AlexanderSchiborr gave a great and detailed explanation but you just played the Mike Verta card (with all due respect to Mike Verta !), and that felt very cold.


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## AdamAlake (Aug 27, 2017)

whitewasteland said:


> Sorry @AdamAlake but I think your first posts were quite brutal indeed. The guy is just starting out, why being so harsch ? @AlexanderSchiborr gave a great and detailed explanation but you just played the Mike Verta card (with all due respect to Mike Verta !), and that felt very cold.



I believe there is never a good reason to hold back on criticism, in fact, since Mads is just starting is a very good reason to be as honest as you can with feedback, due to the fact that changing your ways only gets more difficult later on. I also believe I was more detailed in my feedback than merely "pulling the Verta card". Nevertheless, what I said is what I think and absolutely noone is forced to take it as a fact.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Aug 27, 2017)

Yep, you gave a better explanation of your thoughts after, but the first one was more or less : "That sucked. Watch this. Take lessons. You have a lot to learn." Of course he has !

That being said, you may be right and maybe this kind of "brutal honesty" is what some people need. I know I wouldn't like that. But I'm french.


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## AdamAlake (Aug 27, 2017)

whitewasteland said:


> Yep, you gave a better explanation of your thoughts after, but the first one was more or less : "That sucked. Watch this. Take lessons. You have a lot to learn." Of course he has !
> 
> That being said, you may be right and maybe this kind of "brutal honesty" is what some people need. I know I wouldn't like that. But I'm french.



Fair enough. Although, my first post was along the lines of "Way to go, mate. Here is a resource you can use to learn what is wrong with your composition yourself and learn how to fix it.".

If it were not for feedback like this, I would not be even halfway where I am at now - so I try to do the same for others, as has been done for me.


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## Smikes77 (Aug 27, 2017)

If you translate "brutal honesty" into a teaching career, you would be fired. Every. Single.Time. I disagree that you have to be brutal for it to be constructive. For one, it`s not very inspirational, and can actually come across as bitter.

It`s more about putting the carrot in front of the donkey. I think some people could deliver their criticism with more effectiveness. And I disagree that you have to be as honest as you can just because he`s starting out, and there IS a good reason to hold back on criticism. Little by little is easier to digest.


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## AdamAlake (Aug 27, 2017)

Well I am not interested in having a teaching career, neither am I saying you have to be "brutal". Little by little might be easier to digest, yet who says it has to be easy to digest? When you put your thing out there and get discoured by the result, that is your own responsibility and nobody else's.

When a parent tells their kid their artwork is the worst thing ever - that is where problems begin. But this is hardly the case, we are all adults here (I hope).


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## Smikes77 (Aug 27, 2017)

AdamAlake said:


> Well I am not interested in having a teaching career, neither am I saying you have to be "brutal". Little by little might be easier to digest, yet who says it has to be easy to digest? When you put your thing out there and get discoured by the result, that is your own responsibility and nobody else's.
> 
> When a parent tells their kid their artwork is the worst thing ever - that is where problems begin. But this is hardly the case, we are all adults here (I hope).



Didn`t say you were interested in a teaching career, but you were trying to teach him to be better. He was quite clearly discouraged by your initial comments and perhaps you could have delivered it more effectively. Developing thick skin also takes time, and a beginner at an instrument (adult or otherwise), are not told they have so much to learn, or they probably wouldn`t pick it up again.


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## AdamAlake (Aug 27, 2017)

First off, I entered this thread with acknowledging that Mads is new to composition and pointing him towards an excellent resource for learning the gripes of it. He then asked me to describe what I deemed wrong with it, so I listed what I perceive to be the flaws in a purely informative manner with absolutely no interpersonal negativity.

If that seems heinous to someone, that is their problem. This is the internet and all it takes is to avert your gaze to ignore someone.

Developing a thick skin indeed takes time, but it is not in any way exclusive to music, it is a skill you work at from the beginning of your life, and as a dude who is amongst the younger members around here, I see no issues with assuming a decent amount of mental fortitude in others.

And of course, a beginner would often not be told they have much to learn, as it is fairly obvious.


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## CGR (Aug 27, 2017)

Mads Skønberg said:


> Please listen and comment if you want to.
> 
> I have made this type of music in 3 weeks now.



Hi Mads,
I have a similar approach with composing music and my graphic design work: Form a strong idea before I turn to the computer. In design work, that often means working with a pencil and sketch pad to quickly put down concepts or ideas (i.e, a logo design or layout for an ad). In music, an acoustic piano or keyboard with a piano sound, to again explore & consolidate a strong idea before jumping into a DAW and working with multi tracks/voices. This gives me a clearer direction to begin with, I waste less time, and more often than not, the result is a solid and cohesive piece of work. In graphic design terms, develop your line-work before you get out your coloured pencils


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## CGR (Aug 27, 2017)

As a follow up to my previous post, I can hear you have a talent for music Mads, and I'd encourage you to continue developing your ideas and expanding your skills. VI Control is a wonderful resource to listen and learn from some very talented musicians/composers, who are often very generous with their time and advice.


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## Johann F. (Aug 27, 2017)

Mads you have some strong melodic motifs going on here, I didn't find hard at all to lock on to your ideas. Theory can be a great analytical and organization tool which should be used after you already know how to write compelling music. And I think you have what it takes to write memorable and melodic driven music. 

I like Alexander's suggestion of writing short pieces focusing on things you need to improve. That's a great exercise. Transcribing is another invaluable tool. Pick a few cues you like and transcribe them as best you can on your own. Internalize what you learn and apply your new acquired skills on your next pieces.

And you know what's funny about the "brutal honesty" thing? Quite often the ones giving such harsh feedback are the ones who should listen to their own words. Especially over the internet, this place is plagued with people who can't do what they preach about. So don't take every single word you read here for granted.


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## Arbee (Aug 27, 2017)

The emotive power of brutal criticism is quite efficient imho (and I had plenty when I started out). It leads either to rapid improvement or to stagnating denial.


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## Ultraxenon (Aug 28, 2017)

For most people constructive feedback with positive laungauge works best. After just 3 weeks of composing its no need to be harsh, but rather constructive and motivating.
I agree with the resources was suggested for Mads, this is a very good way to learn together with Evenant courses and Daniel James's youtube videos. You have the melodies and the drive to make som really good compositions Mads! Keep going!


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## Smikes77 (Aug 28, 2017)

Arbee said:


> The emotive power of brutal criticism is quite efficient imho (and I had plenty when I started out). It leads either to rapid improvement or to stagnating denial.



Other factors come into play here.

1. The source and credibility of the brutal criticism. You can`t just assume it`s coming from an expert.
2. I have seen it seriously discourage talented people who are starting out before they have even had a chance to grow a even a little.
3. Some people have the ability to delivery the criticism with charm. Others do not.


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## Mads Skønberg (Aug 28, 2017)

I has been working as a teacher for driving before, and I know that critique has to be formed so it gives the receiver motivation to be better.

Enough said about critique. I am still working at the song:


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 28, 2017)

Mads Skønberg said:


> I has been working as a teacher for driving before, and I know that critique has to be formed so it gives the receiver motivation to be better.
> 
> Enough said about critique. I am still working at the song:



Would you like to have more feedback?


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## fritzmartinbass (Aug 28, 2017)

CGR said:


> As a follow up to my previous post, I can hear you have a talent for music Mads, and I'd encourage you to continue developing your ideas and expanding your skills. VI Control is a wonderful resource to listen and learn from some very talented musicians/composers, who are often very generous with their time and advice.



This is a beautiful post! Keep working Mads, until YOU are happy with your piece.


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## Mads Skønberg (Aug 28, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Would you like to have more feedback?


Of course Alexander. And especially from you. You have a friendly tone, and Good Feedback. Thanks!


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## Harry (Aug 28, 2017)

There's a a reason why this forum has such a reputation. People don't want to put their music out there. Nice one @AdamAlake, you must feel very proud.


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## gtrwll (Aug 28, 2017)

Reading the comments before listening, I half expected to hear something awful, you know, with no dynamics at all or something like that. But this was clearly not the case. 

Really like the atmosphere on the beginning, but when the male choir staccatos kicks in I think it kinda loses the rhythm of the track. Is it a sample library or a loop? It sounds a bit like the timing of the shouts is off, so I think you should double-check on those. The melodies could be stronger here and there, but that will come with time and experience.

3 weeks composing this kind of music? Keep on working man, you're off to a good start!


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## Mads Skønberg (Aug 28, 2017)

gtrwll said:


> Reading the comments before listening, I half expected to hear something awful, you know, with no dynamics at all or something like that. But this was clearly not the case.
> 
> Really like the atmosphere on the beginning, but when the male choir staccatos kicks in I think it kinda loses the rhythm of the track. Is it a sample library or a loop? It sounds a bit like the timing of the shouts is off, so I think you should double-check on those. The melodies could be stronger here and there, but that will come with time and experience.
> 
> 3 weeks composing this kind of music? Keep on working man, you're off to a good start!



Thanx! And I agree, there is something wrong with the choir (Mars). It is off timing. Have to fix


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## AdamAlake (Aug 28, 2017)

Harry said:


> There's a a reason why this forum has such a reputation. People don't want to put their music out there. Nice one @AdamAlake, you must feel very proud.



Define people. I see plenty of pieces being shared here every day.


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## Mads Skønberg (Aug 28, 2017)

AdamAlake said:


> Define people. I see plenty of pieces being shared here every day.


Maybe you should just take the hint now?


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## Mads Skønberg (Aug 29, 2017)

I consider my self finished with this song now, after about 15 hours working with it. Hope some of it is good


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## Smikes77 (Aug 29, 2017)

Well done Mads, there are some really nice moments in here. Reminds me of Gaelic music a lot at times, and the melody sounds really sincere.

The things would probably think about amending:
That initial cymbal I would probably opt for a softer sounding one (one that goes shhhhhhhhhhhh rather than Ratatat) and a little quieter, the rhythm when the male vocals came in threw me a bit. You could fix that by having the piano play that rhythm on first run through underneath the melody, then it wouldn`t be so much of a surprise, or have the male vocals chanting the same rhythm as the piano is now. The melody on first run through gets a little buried in the mix at times and I would like to hear it a little louder.

Thanks for posting!


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## rottoy (Aug 29, 2017)

Some put the emphasis into "brutal" rather than "honesty".


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## Mads Skønberg (Aug 29, 2017)

Smikes77 said:


> Well done Mads, there are some really nice moments in here. Reminds me of Gaelic music a lot at times, and the melody sounds really sincere.
> 
> The things would probably think about amending:
> That initial cymbal I would probably opt for a softer sounding one (one that goes shhhhhhhhhhhh rather than Ratatat) and a little quieter, the rhythm when the male vocals came in threw me a bit. You could fix that by having the piano play that rhythm on first run through underneath the melody, then it wouldn`t be so much of a surprise, or have the male vocals chanting the same rhythm as the piano is now. The melody on first run through gets a little buried in the mix at times and I would like to hear it a little louder.
> ...


Thanx for feedback. I will try to fix this. I am inspired by your feedback, so Maybe foolish to name the song Inside (final edition) It's never final edition in this game is it?


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Aug 29, 2017)

Well, you have Final, Final Final, then Final Final V2, and then Final Final V2 Def. 

Not at home at the moment, but will listen to your update when I have a chance !


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## Smikes77 (Aug 29, 2017)

Mads Skønberg said:


> Thanx for feedback. I will try to fix this. I am inspired by your feedback, so Maybe foolish to name the song Inside (final edition) It's never final edition in this game is it?



You are very welcome!

Ha! More often, it`s the "I can`t take this "!%& no more!" Edition. Like any film sequel, you could name it "Inside - Further Inside".


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Aug 29, 2017)

"Art is never finished, only abandoned".
- Leonardo Da Vinci


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## Mads Skønberg (Aug 29, 2017)

I tried to fix the cymbals @Smikes77 .


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 29, 2017)

Hey Mads..I will take a listen the other day, been a bit busy actually scoring for a tv commercial..


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## Smikes77 (Aug 29, 2017)

Mads Skønberg said:


> I tried to fix the cymbals @Smikes77 .




Hey Mads, that's much better! For the very first one, try for a longer and calmer cymbal swell as the melody is slow it might sound more appropriate, and turn it down in the mix. The only other thing I would suggest is to make sure the cymbal peaks line up with the correct beat of the bar you want them on. An easy way to do this is to export the cymbals as wavs and then line them up visually if its too tedious to do by ear. I think the second swell sounds a little early to me for example, perhaps the peak of the swell should line up with the string melody (first beat of the bar)?

Headed in the right direction...


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## Mads Skønberg (Aug 30, 2017)

I am in my 4th week of composing now.

Trying to make some epic filmmusic...



Constructive feedback needed! 

(And Yes I have been watching both Mike Verta and Daniel James videos the last week!)


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## Mads Skønberg (Aug 31, 2017)

I dont know if the link in the last post is working. Here is the link again.


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## markleake (Sep 1, 2017)

Hey Mads! Good to see you continuing to post tracks here. The Final v2 of the Inside sounded good. It was heartening to hear you improving it over time, and I think you did a very good job with it. There's still a bit of polishing to do (eg. the Male choir has still got some timing issues), but I think it's served its purpose for you. I'm pleased you also took Adam's advice (even if given a bit gruffly), it is good advice and there is a lot I've learnt from Mike and Daniel Jame's videos. I like how Mike sometimes introduces his own early tracks and critiques his own work. 

For Fractions, I think really the mixing of the track is what you could concentrate on (it's the mixing/layering where pretty much all hybrid or "Epic" tracks require the most effort). For example some of the cymbals are very loud - these should be an easy fix. At the 0:45 mark you have some lower brass which we can hardly hear, so the string ostinatos sound odd without the brass support. Bring that up a lot in volume to add some interest there and I think it would work better. Plus I think you could watch a bit the chords you are using for the different instruments... it sounds a bit like the string ostinatos are clashing sometimes with notes other instruments are playing, and so you could vary the ostinato to match the other instruments' chords/key they are playing in.

Otherwise, great stuff and well done for an Epic piece!


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## Mads Skønberg (Sep 2, 2017)

markleake said:


> Hey Mads! Good to see you continuing to post tracks here. The Final v2 of the Inside sounded good. It was heartening to hear you improving it over time, and I think you did a very good job with it. There's still a bit of polishing to do (eg. the Male choir has still got some timing issues), but I think it's served its purpose for you. I'm pleased you also took Adam's advice (even if given a bit gruffly), it is good advice and there is a lot I've learnt from Mike and Daniel Jame's videos. I like how Mike sometimes introduces his own early tracks and critiques his own work.
> 
> For Fractions, I think really the mixing of the track is what you could concentrate on (it's the mixing/layering where pretty much all hybrid or "Epic" tracks require the most effort). For example some of the cymbals are very loud - these should be an easy fix. At the 0:45 mark you have some lower brass which we can hardly hear, so the string ostinatos sound odd without the brass support. Bring that up a lot in volume to add some interest there and I think it would work better. Plus I think you could watch a bit the chords you are using for the different instruments... it sounds a bit like the string ostinatos are clashing sometimes with notes other instruments are playing, and so you could vary the ostinato to match the other instruments' chords/key they are playing in.
> 
> Otherwise, great stuff and well done for an Epic piece!



Thank you very much for your "review". I agree with your comments and will try to correct the things you mentioned.

By the way I would be pleased if you listen to my last track as well:


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