# RECORDING COMPLETED- Recording in a Cathedral -Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when



## quantum7 (Nov 21, 2012)

*Cathedral UPDATE starts on post #23*

I am hoping to get some advice from people who are experts at getting very good results recording solo violins. 

I recently used a friends local studio to record a violinist, but am not exceptionally happy with the results. To be fair, his studio DAW went down the previous day and he had to scramble to get everything in the studio wired back up which could be part of the reason why my room and ambient mics were nearly so low in volume that I had to boost 24db just to use them....but unfortunately that led to raising the noise levels, etc. 

Anyway, I would just like to show you ONLY the close mic which I believe is a TS1 (sorry I am not a mic guru by any measure).

Here is a few second clip of ONLY the close mic recording:
http://soundcloud.com/sean-dockery/loca ... -close-mic

Here is a few seconds of a close mic recording I had recorded a few years ago at a higher-end studio in L.A. I was hoping for something a little closer to this. Again, this is ONLY the close mic for comparison:
http://soundcloud.com/sean-dockery/la-s ... olin-close

Am I over-concerned about my local recording? Even with blending the other mics, I cannot seem to get a warm beefy sound that I got with the LA session recording form years ago.

Here is the quality I ultimately want once I introduce ambiance to the track. This is an example from a commercial violinist performing Bach:
http://soundcloud.com/sean-dockery/bach ... in-example

Thank you in advance for any advice I can get.


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## RiffWraith (Nov 21, 2012)

*Re: Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*



quantum7 @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> Here is a few second clip of ONLY the close mic recording:
> http://soundcloud.com/sean-dockery/



Which one? There are three on the page.


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## quantum7 (Nov 21, 2012)

Oops, link should be fixed now.


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## dannthr (Nov 21, 2012)

Hey, I'm not in a position to listen to your samples, but combining a ribbon mic with an large diaphragm condenser would give you the best of both worlds: detail and beef.


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## Rob (Nov 21, 2012)

*Re: Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*

from your first post, I was expecting something worse... it does sound good to my ears, with a bit of compression and a nice ambience I think you're pretty close...


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## RiffWraith (Nov 22, 2012)

*Re: Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*

It doesn't sound bad, but there is alot of room for improvement. I have no experience with the TS1, but I don't think it's the right mic for the job. Doesn't mean you can't get away with it, but I don't ever remember hearing any top engineer using this mic in a recording - at least not orchestral. Another thing you can try is two mics, if available. Put them in an x/y pattern, and make a stereo recording. You can always collapse the image down to be more mono later, but the recording now is completely mono, which is not the most pleasing thing. You did mention that you have room mics, tho - maybe adding those in would make a difference there.

From the sound of the recording, the biggest problem appears to be the room. Not sure how close the mic was, but sounds like it could have been a bit closer. And the room just does not sound like it is primed for recording. One of the keys to a good recording is high ceilings. Of course, the acoustics of the entire space are more important than just ceiling height, but generally, you are better off with a smaller room wall to wall and high ceilings, then a large room wall to wall and low ceilings. That doesn't mean you want a room that is 4x4 with a 20 ft ceiling, but you get the point. 

The other thing, of course, is the mic pre. What were you using? Sounds like a presonus something, or an M-box, or Mackie something or other. Good mic pres are not at all cheap, but they make a big difference. That, coupled with a different mic choice (see here: http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28570 for some examples), different mic positioning, and a good sounding room will make a big difference.

Cheers.


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## Daryl (Nov 22, 2012)

*Re: Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*

I think the most important thing to know is what sort of sound you want from your recording. Do you want it to sound as if it's recorded in a church, or hall, or do you want a kind of commercial/film fake sound. Whilst there is some truth in the view that if the room doesn't sound good, you should try to eliminate as much room sound from the recording as possible, there is a limit as to how close you can get for a String instrument. Get too close and all you hear is that hissy, edgy, er close sound, which is not very attractive. Get too far away, and you hear the boxy room sound, so there will be a quite a bit of trial and error to get the best recording.

Obviously mic choice and placement can help, but don't eliminate the player from the equation. Experienced solo session players know how to make the right sound, no matter the space they play in. Less experienced people need a space to react to. From my own playing I know how difficult it is to play when there is no aural feedback from the room.

D


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## wst3 (Nov 22, 2012)

I really hate to agree with anyone<G>, but Riff is right, at least with respect to shared recordings.

And even at that I think you have a pretty good recording.

So, first thing that leapt out to me is the room tone. There is a lot of it, and it is not terribly complimentary. Since this is the close microphone I'd either add gobos, or move it a little closer.

The second thing that I noticed is the dynamics. Something is missing, could simply be the 24 dB that you had to add, could be the microphone or preamplifier.

My first impression was that the microphone/preamplifier was fairly neutral, but without hearing the live instrument I can't really tell, and it could be sterile instead of neutral.

I think you can get pretty darned close to your target sound if the distant microphone recording is clean. It may be quite a bit of work though...

The other solution is to re-record, and I get the impression that's on your list.

If it is, consider the following:

1) get the close microphone really close, and add gobos as required to get as little room sound as possible.

2) for the room microphone(s) consider a stereo pattern if the room sounds nice. Use a single microphone if it isn't.

3) Use the 3:1 rule (which really applies to level, not distance, but distance is a good approximation!)

4) consider alternative microphones, and preamplifiers. Only you can tell for certain, since none of us are in the room. If rentals are available give them a try.

At the risk of violating common sense<G>, some suggestions, from my microphone locker (there are tons more good candidates!):

If I were recording a great sounding violin in a room that was OK to great, and I was looking for beefy & warm, I'd place either a TLM-193 or a KSM-32 six to eight inches from the violin, aimed roughly at the end of the fingerboard. Exact distance and aim will depend a LOT on the instrument. I've never been able to use the 'ear trick' for close microphones, so I just experiment.

For the room microphone I walk around until I find a spot that sounds great, usually I'll find a couple spots. That's my starting point.

I'd use a Royer SF-12 if the room sounds great, if the room is not so great I might go with C-451, and I'd keep it no further than two feet from the player.

For the close microphone I'd choose a microphone with character, in my case probably a Telefunken x76, maybe a Melcor (predecessor to API). For the room microphone I'd choose my most neutral preamplifier, in my case probably an older SPL Micman, especially if I were using the stereo ribbon microphone.

5) The most important lesson I ever learned is the microphone selection and placement can replace an entire rack of compressors and equalizers! Spend some time with experimenting, and get the recorded tone as close as possible to that which you hear in your head.

OK, that's probably more than you wanted, but I do love recording<G>... Happy Thanksgiving!


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## quantum7 (Nov 22, 2012)

Thank you all for such good advice and information. I will pass this along to the studio so we can be better prepared for the next session. 

To those in the USA, have a Happy Thanksgiving.


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## Markus S (Nov 23, 2012)

*Re: Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*

Your examples are very interesting, thank you for posting.

While your first sample sounds nice by itself, the top end of the sound does seem metallic and degraded compared to the LA session and the Bach example - it could be compression (mp3, ogg), but I see your posting the wave file. There is a nice and beautiful sizzle in the violin sound, that you somehow didn't capture.

So, how can this be?

There are some that say it is as hard to record a violin as it is to play it.

The degraded top end of the sound can come from any possible aspect of the recording process, except the instrument and player itself (even a bad instrument has a clean top end, even if it sounds harsh).

If you are using your recording in a sampled orchestra context, I wouldn't even bother about it - it still sounds very nice - , but if it's chamber music or (even worse) a solo piece, you could go on the hunt of the problem.

There are almost no informations on how you did record the violin, no distance, no preamp, no photo of the room, no sound card info, no processing information (if any), so it's really hard to comment on it. 

If I should make a wild guess, it's the room acoustic, that is not good and is degrading the sound. But it also could be the microphone, the pre amp. can you post more information on how you recorded it?

For any info on the many solutions of recording solo violin I would encourage you to visit a certain "slutz" forum.


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## quantum7 (Nov 23, 2012)

*Re: Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*



Markus S @ Fri Nov 23 said:


> Your examples are very interesting, thank you for posting.
> 
> While your first sample sounds nice by itself, the top end of the sound does seem metallic and degraded compared to the LA session and the Bach example - it could be compression (mp3, ogg), but I see your posting the wave file. There is a nice and beautiful sizzle in the violin sound, that you somehow didn't capture.
> 
> ...




Metallic- that is the word I've been trying to convey to my studio friend. It is for a New Age project and the violin will be sitting above synth and Kontakt sample libs. For the life of me I cannot get the top end to sound "natural" for a lack of a better word. By itself it sounds OK, but in a mix I cannot get it to sound as natural as my reference tracks.


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## Markus S (Nov 24, 2012)

*Re: Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*



quantum7 @ Fri Nov 23 said:


> Metallic- that is the word I've been trying to convey to my studio friend. It is for a New Age project and the violin will be sitting above synth and Kontakt sample libs. For the life of me I cannot get the top end to sound "natural" for a lack of a better word. By itself it sounds OK, but in a mix I cannot get it to sound as natural as my reference tracks.



Yes, I'm afraid there is no way to fix that afterwards, you have to get the sound right from start. Except maybe a low cut filter, usually if recorded right there is no need for an eq' or compression.

Maybe just this from what you posted the sound you are looking for is a transparent non colored sound of the violin. Other than that I think Bill's suggestions are the way to go.


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## quantum7 (Nov 29, 2012)

OK, after showing my studio friend the above comments he decided to make the following changes for our next session.....which I plan on having the violinist re-record everything:
_________________________________________
ProTools HD system instead of PTLE
Nuemann U87 as close mic
AKG 451 stereo pair as room mics - closer perhaps
Avalon 737sp tube mic processor for the U87 mic
Focusrite 427 preamp for the room mics
_________________________________________

sound good?


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## Beat Kaufmann (Nov 30, 2012)

*Re: Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*



> ...ProTools HD system instead of PTLE
> Nuemann U87 as close mic
> AKG 451 stereo pair as room mics - closer perhaps
> Avalon 737sp tube mic processor for the U87 mic
> Focusrite 427 preamp for the room mics...



Sounds good but...
In case of recording a violin you will get also very high frequencies. So microphones with small capsules are to prefere for such a task. I would exchange the U87 (even if it is a fantastic microphone) by a small capsule mic. For instance with a KM184, a DPA 4006, a Schoeps MK4...
An U87 is OK for voices, cellos etc.
But as always - it is a matter of taste. 

All the best
Beat


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## Graham Keitch (Nov 30, 2012)

*Re: Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*



Beat Kaufmann @ Fri Nov 30 said:


> > ...ProTools HD system instead of PTLE
> > Nuemann U87 as close mic
> > AKG 451 stereo pair as room mics - closer perhaps
> > Avalon 737sp tube mic processor for the U87 mic
> ...



This isn't intended to be a flippant comment but maybe the violin itself - the strings, bow, player etc has some part to play in this too? If the instrument sounds thin and metallic, so will the recording. I know we're not talking about libraries here but I think it's no coincidence that none of the American produced string libraries appeal too me and I think this must have something to do with the actual instruments and players themselves.

A while back, I heard the Birmingham Symphony perform live in probably the coldest acoustic environment possible - nearby Exeter Cathedral. Yet, even in the most aggressive, harsh passages, the violins still sounded woody and mellow in a way that isn't equalled in any of the current string libraries, except CS which isn't American. I can't help thinking the explanation may be more to do with the instrument and player than the recording parameters.

My mother-in-law owns a nice French (or is it Spanish?) violin which produces a glorious mellow tone, even in the hands of a complete novice. In the sample world Spitfire comes closest - but Adagio sounds synthetic by comparison. We're almost talking about two different types of instrument so whether it's samples, or as in this case real life, I think there's more to it than choice of studio or mics. My two pence!

Graham


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## germancomponist (Nov 30, 2012)

*Re: Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*



Graham Keitch @ Fri Nov 30 said:


> This isn't intended to be a flippant comment but maybe the violin itself - the strings, bow, player etc has some part to play in this too? If the instrument sounds thin and metallic, so will the recording. I know we're not talking about libraries here but I think it's no coincidence that none of the American produced string libraries appeal too me and I think this must have something to do with the actual instruments and players themselves.
> 
> A while back, I heard the Birmingham Symphony perform live in probably the coldest acoustic environment possible - nearby Exeter Cathedral. Yet, even in the most aggressive, harsh passages, the violins still sounded woody and mellow in a way that isn't equalled in any of the current string libraries, except CS which isn't American. I can't help thinking the explanation may be more to do with the instrument and player than the recording parameters.
> 
> ...



+1

There are in fact great differences. The same with all other instruments.


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## RiffWraith (Nov 30, 2012)

*Re: Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*



Graham Keitch @ Sat Dec 01 said:


> This isn't intended to be a flippant comment but maybe the violin itself - the strings, bow, player etc has some part to play in this too? If the instrument sounds thin and metallic, so will the recording. I know we're not talking about libraries here but I think it's no coincidence that none of the American produced string libraries appeal too me and I think this must have something to do with the actual instruments and players themselves.
> 
> A while back, I heard the Birmingham Symphony perform live in probably the coldest acoustic environment possible - nearby Exeter Cathedral. Yet, even in the most aggressive, harsh passages, the violins still sounded woody and mellow in a way that isn't equalled in any of the current string libraries, except CS which isn't American. I can't help thinking the explanation may be more to do with the instrument and player than the recording parameters.
> 
> ...



Interesting post. For sure, the violin itself - the strings, bow, player etc. plays a large role in the final product. But are you saying that Americans play differently than people in say, England and Europe?


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## germancomponist (Nov 30, 2012)

*Re: Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*



RiffWraith @ Fri Nov 30 said:


> But are you saying that Americans play differently than people in say, England and Europe?



Opss, I overread this. I do not think that there are differences.


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## Markus S (Dec 1, 2012)

*Re: Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*



Beat Kaufmann @ Fri Nov 30 said:


> Sounds good but...
> In case of recording a violin you will get also very high frequencies. So microphones with small capsules are to prefere for such a task. I would exchange the U87 (even if it is a fantastic microphone) by a small capsule mic. For instance with a KM184, a DPA 4006, a Schoeps MK4...



+1

I would disagree that the sound here comes from the instrument itself. No real instrument has a degraded high end. It might sound tight, hard or crisp, but not "harmonically reduced" in some way. I might add that you ant the violin on stereo (even narrow) and also that you might pass on the room mics unless you are recording in a great sounding large room.

Anyway, I can't help but notice that there is no information on the room acoustics. We are talking about a major aspect of the recording quality. With the best microphones, the most transparent pre-amp, you are not going to get good results, if the room is not right.

Are you aware what early reflections, flutter echos and room modes can do to sound? I have seem pictures of professional recording studios (small ones), it's crazy how few people actually seem to care about these things. You can get away with it, if you are close recording (or putting your recording on a sampled orchestra anyway), but a violin needs some space to unfold it's sound.

So, if you can either change location (go to a church, a nice "chamber room") - best solution - or post a picture of the room you are recording in, so we can have a look at the acoustics, to (hopefully) determine if the problem comes from there.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Dec 1, 2012)

*Re: Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*



> In case of recording a violin you will get also very high frequencies. So microphones with small capsules are to prefere for such a task. I would exchange the U87 (even if it is a fantastic microphone) by a small capsule mic. For instance with a KM184, a DPA 4006, a Schoeps MK4...



Hello again
In addition to my suggestion above: 
The theory "why using small diaphragm microphones for recording a violin".
Microphones with a large diaphragm do have a problem with high frequencies when they enter sideways into the mic. (Maybe not correct in English).
Please see the image below:






For less defaults the diaphragm should be 2-4 smaller than the wave length of the highest frequency you want to record. 
10kHz = 3,43cm
16kHz = 2,14cm
20kHz = 1,72cm 4 ~ 5mm) a large diaphragm gets up to 2,54cm diameter. 

Further: +1 for searching a good room. It should be a very high room so that you don't have any reflections back from the ceiling > a church?

OK that's it so far from me.
Best
Beat


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## quantum7 (Dec 11, 2012)

Thanks for the info. We have a very nice 100+ year old Catholic Cathedral in Boise that I'm contemplating trying to use. My wife used to sing with the choir there and the acoustics sound amazing.


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## diggler (Jan 2, 2013)

*Re: Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*

I know this post is a little old I want to ask a question. Are you sampling the violin in stereo with two mics?

If so you may need to phase align the two mics before they hit any other processing. This can make a big impact on the final sound cohesion.

In my experiments it really adds to the detail in the lower frequency range the mellow part and clarity to the higher frequencies.

If you are getting a metallic sound try using the close mic off axis instead of directly pointed at the instrument and the larger diaphragm on axis. Then use a phase alignment plugin to combine the two mono signals to one stereo track when you record.

Mic positioning alone can't 100% cure phasing, you have to adjust the two signals phase and time 100% correctly for stereo mic to work properly. There is a freeware plugin for this http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2011/02/ ... ment-tool/ and this one http://varietyofsound.wordpress.com/201 ... 0-out-now/ and payware from vox http://www.voxengo.com/product/pha979/ which I highly recommend. 

If record make sure the violin player can hear the record monitoring through closed back headphones. Then also have a db meter and timeline that he/she can see while playing. This helps achieve the right level and length of each dynamic layer.

Hope this helps get those solo violin samples in sync and sounding smoother.


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## quantum7 (Jan 2, 2013)

*UPDATE-* We will actually be recording in St. John's Cathedral in Boise now, so hopefully that will solve the space problem. my wife used to sing in the choir there and the space sounded fantastic. My project was going to have the violins in heavy reverb anyway, so the acoustics there should benefit me. 

Just got this message from my recording engineer, "We received a Royer 122 ribbon mic which is supposed to be excellent on strings. I also got a Rhodes NT-4 which I have used and has been a great room mic. Between those, a Neumann U87 and a couple AKG 451s we should be able to nail it this time".


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## dgburns (Jan 4, 2013)

*Re: Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*

Hey Quantum7-
I have fought with recording violin,and found that for me at least,the better option if close mic'ing has been an AEA R84.It flatters the top well,and depending on the proximity,can give a lot of body as well.I wish I had the phantom powered version because the output is low,so even up close,you need to have the mic pre up.The royer is good as well,I have one too,but it doesn't have the same smoothness in the top end(at least for me).I have never had good results personally with small diaphragm condensers,but the DPA's are certainly a viable option.
I'd prefer the royer to the c451(I am making a cat hissing sound).One final thought-screw the verb in the box and put up a few omni's further in the room.You won't be wanting for ambience in a church methinks.(unless you are comping the perf from many takes)

david


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## Per Lichtman (Jan 4, 2013)

@Quantum7

Here are the microphones I've enjoyed using when recording violin. You'll notice you're already using some of them.

- Neuman U87, TLM 103, 184D
- Royer 122V
- AEA R92

If you listen to the clipilator at ZenProAudio, there is a section on microphones where you can get a sense for the performance of the different ones on the same material.

http://www.zenproaudio.com/clipalator.aspx

The Avalon pre-amp you mentioned using is perfect for recording Neumann mics on that source material for new age. I've used it for that with great results.

Play to the strengths of each microphone.

- The small diaphragm microphones will give you a nice, detailed and rather neutral sound compared to the others.

- The U87 gets a lot of definition into the sound and add character to the attacks in the sound and body. I often find the balance of this mic in the mix helps control how much the sound blends in and stand out.

- I would suggest not using any high-pass/low-cut filters while recording. If you're using Izotope RX, the FORTI/SERTI combo for Vienna Suite or Adobe Audition for processing later on, they can do it much better. Only rely on that filtering on-site if you are having trouble getting enough level.

- The Royer 122 has a great sound. The 122V gets you even more level (which is why the artist I last recorded violin with bought one) but they both work well. Make sure you get as clea a signal to that as you can.

- Follow the advice others give about coherent phase, also check for ground-loops before recording.

- The Avalon 737 is a great channel strip so feel free to do a little (key word is "little") bit of EQing on the incoming signal, but you'll do a lot in post by working with mic balance so don't overdo it. Note that by engaging the compression circuit on the unit but turning the ratio all the way down, threshold all the way up (and basically all the things you can to keep it from doing anything) you will still get the benefit of warmth that component adds to the sound, even if you don't want any actual compression. I used that a lot on recordings to ensure flexibility in post.

- Before you start recording, really spend as much time as you can setting up the microphones in that space by listening to the mics as you place them to get the sweetest possible tone you can.

Good luck!


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## christianhowes (Jan 5, 2013)

*Re: Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*



> Before you start recording, really spend as much time as you can setting up the microphones in that space by listening to the mics as you place them to get the sweetest possible tone you can.



Agreed. If at all possible, listen in headphones while the engineer is moving the placement of the mic, also don't be afraid to move around the room and see how that changes the sound.

The signal chain you have looks like it will do the job, the key to getting a good sound will be mic placement and room placement.

Cheers!


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## quantum7 (Jan 21, 2013)

*LATEST UPDATE:* St. Johns's was a bust so now I am recording at the Cathedral of the Rockies in Boise, which actually sounds better for what I am doing (the Lord sure works in mysterious ways). The 2 close mics will be a Nueman U87 & a Royer 122. The 4 room mics will be AKG 451's & Rhode NT4's. The farthest room mics will be approximately 150 feet away up in the balcony. The mids about 30 feet away. Luckily we will have a temp violinist there earlier to check levels and find the best mic placements before our "star" violinist gets there. We are recording Wednesday & Thursday evening. Very excited!!!

Oh yeah, we are using a Presonus StudioLive 16.4.2 and will be recording at 24-bit & 48k.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 21, 2013)

quantum7 @ Mon Jan 21 said:


> The 2 close mics will be a Nueman U87 & a Royer 122.



If you plan on panning the two close mics during the mix, and making a close stereo image, you had better do some test recording with only those two mics, listen in good cans, and make sure you aren't hearing anything funky. Two different mics in a large, open, ambient space on the same source is ususally not ideal for a stereo image. If it's going to be mono close, and stereo far, and you pan both close mics center and just use a little of one to give the other some depth or character, then you might be ok. But check anyway.

Good luck!


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## quantum7 (Jan 21, 2013)

Thanks Riff. We are using the 2 close mics only so I can have 2 to choose from for different character or to blend....at least that is what we did last time. I will make sure and check with my engineer to see if we are on the same page.


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## Gusfmm (Jan 21, 2013)

Sean- I'm sure you thought about it, but just in case, you got to be real careful with the back side of that Royer in such large space.


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## Per Lichtman (Jan 21, 2013)

Best of luck with the session - good array of mics to work with.

Like Gusfmm said, keep an eye on how you fill that figure 8 pattern. I would also add to pay special attention to the distance between the mics and the closest walls (and especially corners).

Remember that the closer you get to walls, the less clear the bass becomes. Even though the bass may seem "stronger" close to the walls, it's pretty much universally a better idea to bring it up in post than to "enhance" it that way.

Anyway, don't worry too much and have fun. Sounds like it should be a good session and these are just tips to help you get the most out of it.


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## quantum7 (Jan 26, 2013)

*Re: UPDATE- Recording in a Cathedral -Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*

THE SESSION WENT TERRIFIC!!!  Man, it sounded soooo good in that Cathedral. 

Here are some photos of the session: 

http://s968.beta.photobucket.com/user/q ... %20Session

The violinist is Andrew Sords and my recording engineer is Jason Ringelstetter of the Tonic Room Recording Studio in Boise, Idaho. The Cathedral of the Rockies is also located in Boise. 

The recordings sound soooo much better to me than the original tracks we did in the studio months back. I will try and get some MP3's up in the next couple of days.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 26, 2013)

Good deal!

Hurry up with those mp3s....cant wait to hear it!


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## ozmorphasis (Jan 27, 2013)

*Re: Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*



RiffWraith @ Fri Nov 30 said:


> Interesting post. For sure, the violin itself - the strings, bow, player etc. plays a large role in the final product. But are you saying that Americans play differently than people in say, England and Europe?



Without a doubt. Some of the older stereotypes have faded quite a bit, but there are still important differences in aesthetics, tone, even micing techniques.


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## quantum7 (Jan 28, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Sat Jan 26 said:


> Good deal!
> 
> Hurry up with those mp3s....cant wait to hear it!



Ok, here is one track in wave format. It hasn't been altered one bit and the volumes are exactly how they were recorded- all 6 mics. I will do blending with the mics, but just wanted for you to hear it, "as is". 

http://soundcloud.com/quantum7/heavens- ... t-violin-1


I recorded 2 or 3 takes per track as to mix in my favorite passages. Very happy!


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## RiffWraith (Jan 28, 2013)

quantum7 @ Tue Jan 29 said:


> Ok, here is one track in wave format.
> 
> http://soundcloud.com/quantum7/heavens- ... t-violin-1



Actually that's mp3 format. 

This sounds really good! HUGE improvement over the first recording. which I just went back and had a listen to. Huge difference. My ears tell me most of that is the room. I just listened with a touch of PCM-91, and it sounds really, really good. I can imagine it sounding just a bit better in .wav format.

Good job!


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## mark812 (Jan 28, 2013)

*Re: UPDATE- Recording in a Cathedral -Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*



quantum7 @ Sat Jan 26 said:


> The recordings sound soooo much better to me than the original tracks we did in the studio months back. I will try and get some MP3's up in the next couple of days.



That's 'cause you recorded in Studio One, which sounds 2-4% better than Cubase and Logic. 

Just kidding..great job!


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## RiffWraith (Jan 28, 2013)

*Re: UPDATE- Recording in a Cathedral -Help with Solo Violin - getting a good result when recording*



mark812 @ Tue Jan 29 said:


> That's 'cause you recorded in Studio One, which sound 2-4% better than Cubase and Logic.



LOL


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## quantum7 (Jan 28, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Mon Jan 28 said:


> quantum7 @ Tue Jan 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, here is one track in wave format.
> ...



I'm glad that you concur. I don't think I can record anywhere else now.  My engineer told me that even though he would like to say that the mic changes helped, he too thought that most of it was the space. 

I guess Soundcloud converted it to MP3 because I uploaded it as a wave. I enjoyed using Studio One durring the session....which I only used sine my engineer thought that since we were using the StudioLive 16.4.2 we should try Studio One for the session.


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## quantum7 (Jan 28, 2013)

Thanks again to everyone who commented on this thread. Both me and my recording guy learned a lot pertaining to recording strings.


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## dannthr (Jan 28, 2013)

Great job!


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## quantum7 (Jan 30, 2013)

I haven't shared a track in quite a while, but since I'm trapped on the couch today with back-pain I figured what the heck. 

Here is a rough-draft unmixed version of a piece I am writing for the aforementioned upcoming CD. The song is titled Carmen pro Deus (Song for God). The violins are from this session, and Soundiron's Mercury provide the children's choirs. The solo cello is from Spitfire, but will be replaced with a real cello next month. back in the cathedral. I hope you enjoy it. 

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F77182150&secret_url=false[/flash]


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jan 31, 2013)

*Re: RECORDING COMPLETED- Recording in a Cathedral*

Hi
Very interesting to follow your curve of success. 
Nevertheless, I have a question: 
You recorded the violin in a church/cathedral obviously with six microphones.
I miss a bit the nice (stereo-) room dimension of the violin within the cathedral... so... 
Why do you use the violin now in mono within your mix?

Beat


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## quantum7 (Jan 31, 2013)

Hmmmm.....it's not in mono. I have each of the 2 violins with all 6 mic tracks, and the far LR mics properly panned. What I did do, though, was do a mix down of the 6 mics for each violin and then pan both violin mixes slightly left and right just to give them their own space. I then added a reverb.....which is large and could of clouded things. I will look over it again today just in case I made an error somewhere.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jan 31, 2013)

*Re: RECORDING COMPLETED- Recording in a Cathedral*



> Hmmmm.....it's not in mono. I have each of the 2 violins with all 6 mic tracks, and the far LR mics properly panned. What I did do, though, was do a mix down of the 6 mics for each violin and then pan both violin mixes slightly left and right just to give them their own space. I then added a reverb.....which is large and could of clouded things. I will look over it again today just in case I made an error somewhere.


Hello again
I don't want make you feel unsure about your mix. It is true that the violins are panned left and right - stereo so to say. 
Compare http://www.musik-produktion-createc.ch/downloads/som_2012_ex0.mp3 (my violin recording example) with yours. It seems that there is no really room with your violin(s). Please, don't understand me wrong, it shouldn't sound as roomy as "my" violin does but I really missed the room components already with your first violin upload - out of the cathedral. Then I thought that it was just one channel of six. 
When I listened yesterday to your violins I heard the same mono-close sound... 

About my example: 
The Orchestra was recorded with ORTF-Stereo Mics and the solo violin got one mic about 1.5m over its strings. 
So the sound you can listen to is a mix of room and direct signal. Unfortunately the violin player moved around a lot during his performance. This results in a bit a phasing sound some times.
The Violin was a Stradivari and the venue was a church - fully filled with noisy audience.

All the best
Beat


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## quantum7 (Jan 31, 2013)

*Re: RECORDING COMPLETED- Recording in a Cathedral*



Beat Kaufmann @ Thu Jan 31 said:


> > Hmmmm.....it's not in mono. I have each of the 2 violins with all 6 mic tracks, and the far LR mics properly panned. What I did do, though, was do a mix down of the 6 mics for each violin and then pan both violin mixes slightly left and right just to give them their own space. I then added a reverb.....which is large and could of clouded things. I will look over it again today just in case I made an error somewhere.
> 
> 
> Hello again
> ...



Holy crap, your violinist's skills are incredible!!!! o/~ I am in the middle of reworking the 6 mic mix and have also removed most of the reverb I put in there....which was too much I now realize. I will put up an updated mix hopefully tomorrow.


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## quantum7 (Feb 16, 2013)

I thought I would show more pieces from the project if anyone is interested. "For Andromeda" will be featured on my upcoming CD released this spring. 

It hasn't been mastered, and the mix still needs tweaking, but it's getting there. I had too many timing tweaks to do so I only used the close mics, but am happy with the sound.

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F79575046&secret_url=false[/flash]


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## ryans (Feb 17, 2013)

Sounds great!

Ryan


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## musophrenic (Apr 24, 2013)

Hey Sean, thought it time to resurrect the thread with a couple of questions 

So I've begun to work on an album project in a similar way to yours, only with a vocalist. We figured it best to record in a large church/hall space because the natural ambience would work really well with the type of stuff she's singing (and it responds exceptionally well to added convolution reverb :D). We just had a test session to figure out how exactly we'd go about it today, as it's my first time recording vocals in a non-studio space. I'm hooked - I wanna record everything in these spaces!

Did you and your sound guy record at 44.1, 48 or 96 kHz? I haven't done anything beyond 44.1 so far, and I'm wondering if maybe it would be beneficial to do so with this application?

I've only got access to three mics: an NT2A and two NT5s, so I'm making the most of what I've got, setting up the NT2A as a close mic and the NT5s as a stereo pair of far/room mics. I've experimented with placing the latter down the middle of the church and on either far corner ... and I don't know, but it sounds to me like the corner positions have a nicer sound, whereas I feel the centre position is probably more focused and reliable in a mix. I don't know if I'm imagining this (some kind of strange placebo effect), or if I'm really onto something. Having six mic sounds to work with, I'm guessing you'd be familiar with these aspects by now. Any thoughts on this from the experience?

Cheers!


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## quantum7 (Apr 24, 2013)

We recorded in *48k 32-bit*. I initially thought the corners might be good, but my sound guy wanted to avoid them. I will try and get a photo up here soon of the cathedral and the exact mic positions because I'm not sure if they show up well in the photos.


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## musophrenic (Apr 24, 2013)

quantum7 @ Thu Apr 25 said:


> We recorded in 48k 24-bit.



I'm guessing that means your DAW projects are also set at 48K? Or is that a completely irrelevant matter? All I know about setting projects to 48K is that I accidentally switched my interface to 48K, and my 44.1K audio files came out funny.


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## quantum7 (Apr 24, 2013)

The YELLOW is where the performer was with the 2 close mics (Royer 122 and Nuemann U87). The *RED* is where the 2 L&R mids were (AKG 451's). They were about 30 feet each away from the performer. The green is where the 2 (L&R) Rhode NT4's were located at around 100 feet away from the performer.

Hope this helps a little.


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## musophrenic (Apr 24, 2013)

quantum7 @ Thu Apr 25 said:


> The red is where the performer was with the 2 close mics (Royer and Nuemann). The yellow is where the 2 L&R mids were (AKG's). They were about 30 feet each away from the performer. The green is where the far stereo mics were located....I'm guessing around 100 feet away from the performer.



I'm gonna guess from your previous pics that you meant to say that your violinist was at the yellow and the mids were at the red, no?


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## quantum7 (Apr 24, 2013)

OOPS!!!!! Let me correct my post!  That would have been VERY painful for the performer if he was in _both_ the red circles. :shock:


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## quantum7 (Apr 24, 2013)

musophrenic @ Wed Apr 24 said:


> quantum7 @ Thu Apr 25 said:
> 
> 
> > We recorded in 48k 24-bit.
> ...



Another OOPS (I really need more sleep). I recorded at 48k 32-bit float.....which is what I always use for my projects within Cubase......so my recordings don't "sound funny".


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## Beat Kaufmann (Apr 25, 2013)

Hi Musophrenic


> I've only got access to three mics: an NT2A and two NT5s, so I'm making the most of what I've got, setting up the NT2A as a close mic and the NT5s as a stereo pair of far/room mics.


That's very OK. "The more microphones the better the result" isn't true in any case.
If you take the picture of quantum7 use the yellow point for the NT2 and the two red points for the NT5 mics. Don't forget to compensate the delay between the microphones. Clap your hands in front of the NT2 and measure the time until the clap arrives at NT5 1 and NT5 2. 
It's always a good idea to choose a better quality for working with than you use with the end result. If it is a CD (44,1kHz 16Bit) use 88,2 kHz, 24 Bit or 32 Bit for example.
In the upper case 48 kHz would be a bad solution because the quality is just a little bit a better one. Unfortunately you need to convert these 48kHz into 44,1kHz which will destroy this "little bit", because converters url=http://src.infinitewave.ca]produce faults[/url] with the process you probably have less quality than with just 44,1kHz all the time. So the best solution is to chose twice the sampling rate of the end product or more (best solution for converters)
Audio: for 44,1kHz >>> 88.2kHz or 176.4 
Film: for 48kHz >>> 96kHz or 192kHz
Most important is to choose 24Bit or even better 32 Bit Solution! 

Beat


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