# Unpopular opinion - Most of Hans Zimmer's memorable pieces are over a decade old



## oepion (Mar 31, 2022)

First of all, I want to clarify that I still think Hans Zimmer continues to produce amazing soundtracks and him getting an Oscar for Dune is entirely defensible.

With that said, I feel like HZ's recent work overall isn't as memorable or groundbreaking as what he did in the late 90s and beginning of the 00s. Maybe I was more impressionable as a kid who first got introduced to the world of movie soundtrack with The Rock. I was then carried away by the beauty of Gladiator and a few years later awestruck by his musical genius on Tears of the Sun - seamlessly blending orchestral music with African instruments, choirs and rhythmic elements.

Dune, Interstellar and Inception are tremendously good soundtracks, no doubts about that. "Time" is the most listened to song by HZ on Spotify with a count of almost 234M. And while extremely beautiful, it is just a very well layered and orchestrated four chord progression. In contrast, "Hummel Gets The Rockets" and "Rock House Jail" combined only get 1.5M despite a theme that is at least as memorable as that of Mission Impossible and has become a staple that everyone knows and has heard countless times.

Much lesser known, but IMHO just as equally if not more beautiful than "Time" is "Kopano Part III". Maybe I'm partial to Lebo M's singing, the beautiful Kora phrases and the "African choir sound" featured heavily along the orchestra. Special mention to "Cameroon Border Post" which really takes you on a journey with its buildup in intensity. I'm shocked that that soundtrack isn't even available on Spotify, it's a great loss for humanity!

One thing I have noticed is that most of the soundtracks I love are usually collaborations between HZ and others such as Harry-Gregson Williams & Nick Phoenix on The Rock, Steve Jablonsky on Tears of the Sun, Lisa Gerrard & Klaus Badelt on Gladiator (the latter also on The Thin Red Line and Pirates of the Caribbean). So maybe to me, it's the combination of all these composers' geniuses that make a difference.

All that to say, HZ is one of the most talented composers of our time - I just wished his older works were more listened to.

I must finish this post with a Youtube video of Kopano Part III for anyone who wishes to listen to my favourite HZ song and appreciate this underrated gem:



EDITED to add a direct link to a summary of the discussion I've written after taking into account all the different opinions: https://vi-control.net/community/th...ces-are-over-a-decade-old.123253/post-5076858

Thanks everyone who contributed constructively to this discussion.


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## KEM (Mar 31, 2022)

Hans always has and always will be amazing, but his magnum opus came out in 2008 with a little movie called The Dark Knight…


THAT is Hans Zimmer at his finest


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## oepion (Mar 31, 2022)

KEM said:


> Hans always has and always will be amazing, but his magnum opus came out in 2008 with a little movie called The Dark Knight…
> 
> 
> THAT is Hans Zimmer at his finest


Yes The Dark Knight is another masterpiece. If I'm not wrong that was also a collaboration with James Newton Howard so maybe it is indeed the combination of geniuses that make a difference.


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## DivingInSpace (Mar 31, 2022)

I honestly think it in general reflects the music of the time. The current trend is more "background" music than ever, and often i'd rather call it soundscapes or soundworlds than music. This doesn't mean that it isn't amazing, but it isn't as melodically catchy. Funny thing is, that i think we are starting to see melodically driven music more in series instead. I have been really impressed by the score to His Dark Material, Queens Gambit and The Dark Crystal Renicanse to name a few.


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 31, 2022)

oepion said:


> All that to say, HZ is one of the most talented composers of our time -



Wow, hold....erghh.... 

Hm..

OK, to put it this way:

I myself a huge admirer of music for movies, I adore Barry, I like Williams, Zimmer etc. But reading a statement like this in a professional musicians forum, is a bit of a stretch, not on a personal level, its not about Hans per se, but music as a whole. 
There is life outside of LA , as you know, with some hundreds of symphonic orchestras, thousands of smaller ensembles, a musical tradition 400 years in the making, with its set of common principles. 

P.S. My kid listening to Lion King in the background, while me writing this post, makes the scene especially funny 😁.


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## oepion (Mar 31, 2022)

DivingInSpace said:


> I honestly think it in general reflects the music of the time. The current trend is more "background" music than ever, and often i'd rather call it soundscapes or soundworlds than music. This doesn't mean that it isn't amazing, but it isn't as melodically catchy. Funny thing is, that i think we are starting to see melodically driven music more in series instead. I have been really impressed by the score to His Dark Material, Queens Gambit and The Dark Crystal Renicanse to name a few.


Very good point. I think you're right, the whole movie soundtrack scene seems to have moved away from overly rhythmically complex / melodically catchy compositions with tons of movements in the same song and headed more towards soundscapes and a more minimalistic approach. And come to think about it, this is not HZ-specific. I also prefer Harry Gregson-Williams older work such as Kingdom of Heaven or the Prince of Persia over what he's done in the last decade.

Even within the same theme, say sci-fi/space - comparing HZ's Interstellar, HGW's The Martian and Jeff Russo's Star Trek Discovery, it seems that the most melodically-driven (and therefore memorable) themes are found in Jeff Russo's work which is a series and not a movie.


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## oepion (Mar 31, 2022)

Vlzmusic said:


> There is life outside of LA , as you know, with some hundreds of symphonic orchestras, thousands of smaller ensembles, a musical tradition 400 years in the making, with its set of common principles.


I did say "one of the most" which would encompass hundreds of people. You must have assumed it is a small subset which would be a wrong assumption to make. There's extremely talented composers outside the orchestral and symphonic world too. I'm not diminishing anyone else's talent by claiming that HZ is one of the most talented composers of our time: he is, along with many others.


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## pinki (Mar 31, 2022)

Must be nice for Hans, who is a member here, to read your click bait title. Jeez.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Apr 1, 2022)

I think you're wrong on several accounts here. For example, Dunkirk is one of his recent works and it's also one of the best soundtracks he's ever written IMO. The way it reinforces the dark and grim atmosphere of the movie is fantastic. And if you're implying that HZ needs "other geniuses" in order to make memorable music, that's rude tbh.


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## NekujaK (Apr 1, 2022)

All I can say is, if I were a film director and had the budget, I wouldn't hesitate to hire HZ to score my next picture. I'd be lucky to have him.


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## oepion (Apr 1, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I think you're wrong on several accounts here. For example, Dunkirk is one of his recent works and it's also one of the best soundtracks he's ever written IMO. The way it reinforces the dark and grim atmosphere of the movie is fantastic. And if you're implying that HZ needs "other geniuses" in order to make memorable music, that's rude tbh.


It's a matter of personal taste but I don't think Dunkirk's OST is as memorable as some of his other works. To me it's not just whether it reinforces the movie, but also whether or not you can still remember and be able to replay the themes in your head when you're not watching the movie. But again, it's subjective.

Re: the collaboration with others - no it doesn't mean he needs them to make memorable music, just as the others don't need him to make memorable music either. It's a wrong interpretation of what I've written. All I said is that combining their approaches and complementing each other is potentially key in creating even more memorable music. No matter how good you are at what you do, sometimes having an external input helps you reach new heights together.


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## oepion (Apr 1, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> All I can say is, if I were a film director and had the budget, I wouldn't hesitate to hire HZ to score my next picture. I'd be lucky to have him.


I wouldn't hesitate either - I am not a film director and I don't have the budget, but I did pay hundreds of dollars to get VIP tickets and sit at the front row in his concert, that's how much I love what he does.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Apr 1, 2022)

oepion said:


> It's a matter of personal taste but I don't think Dunkirk's OST is as memorable as some of his other works. To me it's not just whether it reinforces the movie, but also whether or not you can still remember and be able to replay the themes in your head when you're not watching the movie. But again, it's subjective.


It's subjective, I agree. But in my book, themes don't matter, chord progressions don't matter and originality doesn't matter either (not talking about HZ here at all btw., I mean generally speaking). What matters is that the music you compose for any given scene in a movie helps the director reach his goal with that particular scene. Soundtracks are not standalone works.


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## jcrosby (Apr 1, 2022)

I personally prefer his more recent scores - Dark Knight/Inception era onward 
(with perhaps the exception of Gladiator)...

Different strokes for different folks.... As it goes...

The only score that actually matters is one that helps to underscore the drama in a meaningful way....


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## oepion (Apr 1, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> It's subjective, I agree. But in my book, themes don't matter, chord progressions don't matter and originality doesn't matter either (not talking about HZ here at all btw., I mean generally speaking). What matters is that the music you compose for any given scene in a movie helps the director reach his goal with that particular scene. Soundtracks are not standalone works.


Fair point - and I totally understand your perspective even if mine is different. I guess I have become too used to listening to soundtracks as standalone works and outside of the context they are originally made for. Meaning I like to be transported on a journey without necessarily relying on the accompanying visual imagery - and older HZ works seemed to do that quite well, though I agree that's not what movie composers are being hired for.


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## Sebastianmu (Apr 1, 2022)

Yeah, my mom prefers music from the seventies. 
That's when the real' great stuff happened.


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## Vik (Apr 1, 2022)

oepion said:


> I feel like HZ's recent work overall isn't as memorable or groundbreaking as what he did in…


Most works of most composers aren’t in the ‘groundbreaking’ category, but I’m not sure we help them - or ourselves - by pinpointing that. 

Here’s my favorite HZ piece.


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## NekujaK (Apr 1, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> What matters is that the music you compose for any given scene in a movie helps the director reach his goal with that particular scene. Soundtracks are not standalone works.


^^^^ This exactly. A film score exists to support a film. Period. If someone feels the need to evaluate or criticize film music, then do so within the context for which the music was intended; i.e., as part of a scene.


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## TomislavEP (Apr 1, 2022)

I won't try to get into the discussion of "music in the service of the film" even if this is the basic premise of film music. I'm only expressing my own feelings. If you ask me, Zimmer's finest works are those centered around synthesizers and other non-orchestral instruments. Not only do they reflect his background as a self-taught musician and composer (which is probably the main reason why I admire him), but they're also the most memorable ones in a musical sense. In my book, the music from "Rain Man" closely followed by "Thelma & Louise" remains his finest work to date. Soundtracks for later films like "True Romance", "Broken Arrow" and "Mission Impossible II" continue this tradition to a certain degree. Can't say I'm much of a fan of his later works centered around the orchestra, but one can't deny the fact that he always hits the mark in a film scoring sense, regardless of the particular film and its soundtrack.


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## I like music (Apr 1, 2022)

Couldn't get on board with a lot of Zimmer's stuff, but there are bits and pieces here that I do like. For the record, I'm not talking about "music in the service of the film" as a yardstick (which btw is also just as subjective a thing as whether it operates well outside the film or not).

All that said, Elephant Graveyard from the Lion King is just amazing:


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## wickedw (Apr 1, 2022)

In my opinion hz is actually doing the same as he has always done, which is to create the right score for the film. A movie like gladiator required a score like that, same goes for lion king, batman, pirates, inception, sherlock, dune, etc. (what a ridiculously impressive list of films)

Dunkirk absolutely required that score. I would even argue that the whole movie falls apart without it. Where hans truly shows his mastery, is that even with todays trend in film scoring, which is generally more sound design focused, he still manages to create very memorable material. And those scores can, just like the older ones, easily exist outside of the original intent. Which is proven by his series of live concerts.


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## oepion (Apr 1, 2022)

wickedw said:


> And those scores can, just like the older ones, easily exist outside of the original intent. Which is proven by his series of live concerts.


I did see him live just before the pandemic so not long ago. Most of the material was from his older scores though. Apart from the Inception medley, Interstellar medley and one that was taken from Man of Steel. Most of the others were taken from Pirates of the Caribbean, The Thin Red Line, The Lion King, Gladiator, The Dark Knight, Crimson Tide, Rain Man, The Da Vinci Code etc. Not to diminish the point you're making, but I still think the newer scores aren't as memorable, maybe because a lot of them are more "soundscapey" and not as melodically driven by strong themes as was pointed out in another post.


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## wickedw (Apr 1, 2022)

oepion said:


> I did see him live just before the pandemic so not long ago. Most of the material was from his older scores though. Apart from the Inception medley, Interstellar medley and one that was taken from Man of Steel. Most of the others were taken from Pirates of the Caribbean, The Thin Red Line, The Lion King, Gladiator, The Dark Knight, Crimson Tide, Rain Man, The Da Vinci Code etc. Not to diminish the point you're making, but I still think the newer scores aren't as memorable, maybe because a lot of them are more "soundscapey" and not as melodically driven by strong themes as was pointed out in another post.


You are the best judge of what you find memorable, imagine if we all liked the same things, how boring life would be!

In his recent tour the setlist is changed a bit and it features some material from dune, dunkirk, wonder woman, etc. Along side the old "classics" of-course


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## oepion (Apr 1, 2022)

wickedw said:


> Your are the best judge of what you find memorable, imagine if we all liked the same things, how boring life would be!
> 
> In his recent tour the setlist is changed a bit and it features some material from dune, dunkirk, wonder woman, etc. Along side the old "classics" of-course


I agree it's fairly subjective. Good to know the setlist changed, if he ever comes back my way I'll see him again. Forget that, I'll go see him even if he plays the exact same thing!


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## ThomasNL (Apr 1, 2022)

I think it is just nostalgia kicking in. It takes time for music to really settle in. After 10 years you will only remember the good stuff. In 10 years we will look back to scores like Dune way differently and also with much more nostalgic feelings.


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## babylonwaves (Apr 1, 2022)

oepion said:


> It's a matter of personal taste but I don't think Dunkirk's OST is as memorable as some of his other works. To me it's not just whether it reinforces the movie, but also whether or not you can still remember and be able to replay the themes in your head when you're not watching the movie. But again, it's subjective.



@oepion 
let's just say you like the older stuff more vs. the others prefer recent OSTs. Isn't that pretty normal and totally subjective? Why do you need to make a thread that makes it sound like the newer stuff is not memorable and even label your's an "unpopular opinion"? That's just click bate to me.


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## MartinH. (Apr 1, 2022)

oepion said:


> I must finish this post with a Youtube video of Kopano Part III for anyone who wishes to listen to my favourite HZ song and appreciate this underrated gem:


Leaves me totally cold, not least because I didn't like that movie probably. Most people need to love the movie to love the soundtrack. I dare say barely anyone would give a fuck today about even the Star Wars soundtracks if those movies were total trash (in a not even charming c-movie trash way). They'd maybe be an obscure underog tip in the composer community, but they wouldn't be part of the zeitgeist and culture of media like they became in our timeline. People have limited capacity for loving things, and there can only be a limited number of things that they love most (and put on their spotify playlists), and Inception clearly won against a lot of other movies and soundtracks.




oepion said:


> With that said, I feel like HZ's recent work overall isn't as memorable or groundbreaking as what he did in the late 90s and beginning of the 00s. Maybe I was more impressionable as a kid who first got introduced to the world of movie soundtrack with The Rock. I was then carried away by the beauty of Gladiator and a few years later awestruck by his musical genius on Tears of the Sun - seamlessly blending orchestral music with African instruments, choirs and rhythmic elements.


_Everyone _who already was watching movies in the 90's was less jaded back then than they are today. It's part of getting older. Also - on average - movies 30 years ago were objectively better and more memorable than they are today. Partly because an ever increasing number of things have been done before and no longer feel fresh, partly because capitalism/society decided the thing worth pumping most movie money into is formulaic superhero movies, and partly because an increasing number of movies look like they are made as filler content for streaming services and not primarily driven by a good script.


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## oepion (Apr 1, 2022)

babylonwaves said:


> @oepion
> let's just say you like the older stuff more vs. the others prefer recent OSTs. Isn't that pretty normal and totally subjective? Why do you need to make a thread that makes it sound like the newer stuff is not memorable and even label your's an "unpopular opinion"? That's just click bate to me.


I labeled it unpopular because if I'm going by Spotify's statistics, it is indeed unpopular. Then there is the context of HZ winning an Oscar for Dune (I do believe some of his older works for which he didn't receive an Oscar are even more Oscar-worthy). So I just thought I'd share my thoughts to see what people think, most likely with people who think differently than I do since my opinion is unpopular. Thankfully some of the replies I got have been very constructive - people pointing out how the nature of the composition has changed, those pointing out the context of a movie being different to standalone pieces, etc. It helped me understand the difference in opinions. Not sure why you are looking at this with so much negativity, it is not healthy.


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## oepion (Apr 1, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Leaves me totally cold, not least because I didn't like that movie probably. Most people need to love the movie to love the soundtrack. I dare say barely anyone would give a fuck today about even the Star Wars soundtracks if those movies were total trash (in a not even charming c-movie trash way). They'd maybe be an obscure underog tip in the composer community, but they wouldn't be part of the zeitgeist and culture of media like they became in our timeline. People have limited capacity for loving things, and there can only be a limited number of things that they love most (and put on their spotify playlists), and Inception clearly won against a lot of other movies and soundtracks.


Good points - I don't really remember what Tears of the Sun was about, I don't think I liked it either and never bothered watching it again. I did fall in love with the soundtrack, though I don't actually remember whether I had come across the soundtrack first and then wanted to watch the movie, or discovered the songs during the movie and kept listening to the soundtrack despite disliking the movie. Maybe I'm a bit of a special case but the experiences of hearing the music and watching the movie are completely disconnected to me. I totally understand what you described and I do think it's true as a general rule.


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## AudioLoco (Apr 1, 2022)

masterpiece inside and outside the movie


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## Sebastianmu (Apr 1, 2022)

It’s all about when in our lives we encounter certain things, really. 

Humans have a strong proclivity to idealize things they got to know and happened to like during their formative years.

It’s all downhill from there, and people just get more and more grouchy. ^^


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## Kent (Apr 1, 2022)

Y’all, this is just selection bias.






Selection bias - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org





And availability bias:






Availability heuristic - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org


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## babylonwaves (Apr 1, 2022)

oepion said:


> I labeled it unpopular because if I'm going by Spotify's statistics, it is indeed unpopular. Then there is the context of HZ winning an Oscar for Dune (I do believe some of his older works for which he didn't receive an Oscar are even more Oscar-worthy). So I just thought I'd share my thoughts to see what people think, most likely with people who think differently than I do since my opinion is unpopular. Thankfully some of the replies I got have been very constructive - people pointing out how the nature of the composition has changed, those pointing out the context of a movie being different to standalone pieces, etc. It helped me understand the difference in opinions. Not sure why you are looking at this with so much negativity, it is not healthy.


i'm not looking at the topic in a negative way, I just don't like how you approach it. there are great moments in both old and new music. in the end, I don't care much about this entire discussion. i don't think it'll improve anything.


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## AdamKmusic (Apr 1, 2022)

DivingInSpace said:


> I honestly think it in general reflects the music of the time. The current trend is more "background" music than ever, and often i'd rather call it soundscapes or soundworlds than music. This doesn't mean that it isn't amazing, but it isn't as melodically catchy. Funny thing is, that i think we are starting to see melodically driven music more in series instead. I have been really impressed by the score to His Dark Material, Queens Gambit and The Dark Crystal Renicanse to name a few.


You say that but which of Hans’ recent scores are purely background? They’re basically in the forefront of the film, more than the dialogue sometimes


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## davidson (Apr 1, 2022)

I'm sure Hans doesn't give two shits what we think on vi-control whilst he's out there on a world tour playing his music live to hundreds of thousands of happy fans.


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## oepion (Apr 1, 2022)

babylonwaves said:


> i'm not looking at the topic in a negative way, I just don't like how you approach it. there are great moments in both old and new music. in the end, I don't care much about this entire discussion. i don't think it'll improve anything.


You've clearly missed the point I was making, or maybe you skimmed through the thread without making an effort to read and understand. As you said you don't have to contribute, others have provided constructive inputs which are appreciated. No need trolling.


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## Daniel James (Apr 1, 2022)

I actually agree with you but I don't put it at all down in any way to Hans.

I feel like the Era from the 80's to the early 00's were the real sweet spot for Cinema. It was the clashing of the old way with the new. Technology had finally reached a point where people were experimental enough to create new approaches, textures tones and sounds but were still well engrained in the old 'musical' ways of composition with more focus on theme and melody. 

Similar happened in VFX where the technology reached a point where one could create brand new yet believable worlds but we were still engrained in a story plot driven narrative, not just wild CG spectacle (compare Matrix 1 to more modern styles of that genre)

As time goes on you can start to feel the 'film/music school' in the output. You can see things being done 'correctly' you can see the template esq techniques. You can feel the safety. 

Like you I love the work in the modern scores but also like you I feel a degree of identity is lost with the more modern approaches to score which tend to focus on more textural elements (not all scores obviously just the more general approach) 

So personally speaking I make sure to listen where the industry is moving and keep its general vibe in my arsenal but I think once we get to a point where synth/sound design texture loses its appeal as a focus, melody will see a resurgence. I am hoping for that. Again I think the 80-00s had the sweet spot, but we moved on before fully exploring what we could do.

-DJ


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## oepion (Apr 1, 2022)

@Daniel James thanks for sharing these thoughts, it does really explain why I feel this way. And yes it's not just HZ, there are a few other popular movie composers I feel the same way about re: their more recent works. I do get the nostalgia/bias aspects that others have mentioned but I can also think of a few bands whose recent albums I like much better than what they used to do when I first started listening to them so that theory couldn't explain everything.

That era was definitely greatly focused on themes and melodies, there wasn't much use of textures/drones or FX compared to now. Even some older soundtracks heavily featuring synthesizers still had strong themes played by the orchestra.

Not that one is necessarily better than the other, but it's a lot easier to remember recurring themes than it is remembering textures, drones and braams. It would explain why it's easier I can sing the theme from the Rock but wouldn't be able to tell you what that of Dunkirk is.


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## KEM (Apr 1, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> All I can say is, if I were a film director and had the budget, I wouldn't hesitate to hire HZ to score my next picture. I'd be lucky to have him.



He’d be my second choice, Ludwig Göransson will always be my top pick


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## Troels Folmann (Apr 1, 2022)

I think a common mistake for media composers is to think their music (and themes) are above the (media) that they are servicing. Themes sometimes remove me from the experience - whereas the pounding synth pulses in Dunkirk bring me into the movie. But our industry moves in waves of trends. Then it is choir. Then it is not choir. Then it is choir again. The same with themes.

In other words, an artistic industry in evolution and movement and I would take that any day over romantic stagnation. For example, I can't stand listening to "epic music" anymore. Sounds so dated and musically antiquated in my ears. Lord knows I have done my share.


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## robgb (Apr 1, 2022)

Troels Folmann said:


> In other words, an artistic industry in evolution and movement and I would take that any day over romantic stagnation. For example, I can't stand listening to "epic music" anymore. Sounds so dated and musically antiquated in my ears. Lord knows I have done my share.


I never really understood the appeal of epic music, but each to his own. But you're right, a score needs to serve the picture and isn't really meant to stand on its own. That so many do is a testament to the talent of the composer, but merely a side benefit. Composers like Goldsmith and Zimmer were/are innovators who look at the movie, see what it needs, and do what is necessary rather than servicing their own egos. Themes, no themes, if it works, it works and that's all that matters.


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## DivingInSpace (Apr 1, 2022)

AdamKmusic said:


> You say that but which of Hans’ recent scores are purely background? They’re basically in the forefront of the film, more than the dialogue sometimes


I think you are misunderstanding what i meant when I said background music. It is more about it being less about melody and more about textures and soundscapes than earlier. Less catchy melodicly which even though it might still be much in our faces, doesn't make us think as consciously about it.


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## Instrugramm (Apr 1, 2022)

oepion said:


> First of all, I want to clarify that I still think Hans Zimmer continues to produce amazing soundtracks and him getting an Oscar for Dune is entirely defensible.
> 
> With that said, I feel like HZ's recent work overall isn't as memorable or groundbreaking as what he did in the late 90s and beginning of the 00s. Maybe I was more impressionable as a kid who first got introduced to the world of movie soundtrack with The Rock. I was then carried away by the beauty of Gladiator and a few years later awestruck by his musical genius on Tears of the Sun - seamlessly blending orchestral music with African instruments, choirs and rhythmic elements.
> 
> ...



Your argument isn't wrong per se, I do however think that some pieces, such as "Black Gold" from the Wonder Woman 1984 ost, as well as the recent James Bond arrangements are exceptional by any standard. It's true that a lot of his cues "return" in later works and have a best of character but there are always exceptions where he keeps pushing out of his comfort zone within or without a cooperation.

I simply think that his trademarks are so well known that we have come somewhat accustomed to hearing them but I feel the same about Williams, doesn't change the fact that they are still the spearhead of the business and produce absolutely incredible music.


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## Dirtgrain (Apr 1, 2022)

Re: The title

Memorable as a characteristic of music is something that develops over time. Saying that this or that recent piece is not memorable doesn't seem right. I had no idea that "Love Shack" would be so memorable and so much a part of our culture, but here we are, and that god-awful song lingers.


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## Kent (Apr 1, 2022)

Dirtgrain said:


> Re: The title
> 
> Memorable as a characteristic of music is something that develops over time. Saying that this or that recent piece is not memorable doesn't seem right. I had no idea that "Love Shack" would be so memorable and so much a part of our culture, but here we are, and that god-awful song lingers.


Slander not the music of Athens, Georgia! 

Fun but of trivia: Rock Lobster, also by the B-52’s, was a primary reason for John Lennon to come out of domestic retirement and prepare for his comeback, tragically cut short as that was.


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## Kyle Preston (Apr 1, 2022)

_Rain Man_ or gtfo!


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## oepion (Apr 1, 2022)

OK so first of all - thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread, I've enjoyed being challenged and given a different perspective. It's become a really long thread and to wrap it up I thought I'd just provide a quick summary of what was said:

1) Soundtracks are meant to fit a movie and shouldn't be judged as standalone works - I do agree, and I have been guilty of listening to tons of soundtracks on Spotify without ever seeing the movies they were done for so my judgment is out of context

2) People are more likely to love a soundtrack if they loved the movie, and conversely they wouldn't find the soundtrack of a bad movie memorable - I also agree, though it may not apply to me personally as I mostly listen to soundtracks on Spotify and have no feelings about the movie themselves if I haven't seen them

3) Overly melodic soundtracks can actually distract from the movie rather than complement it - I agree, I actually find music from The Rock much more enjoyable to listen to as a standalone piece than when played contextually in the scenes I have just rewatched on Youtube

4) There's been a change in the way soundtracks are composed over the years with less emphasis on strong themes and more focus on textures and orchestral FX which could also explain why it feels like more recent soundtracks aren't *as* "memorable" - emphasis on the *as*, and again the definition of memorable is subjective, but I did mean it as soundtracks that you are able to remember and replay in your head any time

5) Nostalgia also plays a part, I'm not dismissing it entirely, but it doesn't explain why for instance I love Harry Gregson-Williams' Prince of Persia (which I just discovered last year) more than what he did on Spy Game (which was my initial introduction to his work and quite loved it since the early 00s) - Spy Game soundtrack is a lot more hybrid with heavy synth usage compared to the significantly more melodic Prince of Persia soundtrack

I still want to emphasise that more memorable doesn't necessarily mean better and as has been pointed out in this thread, some people prefer HZ's more recent works over what he's done in the past. I've said it in my initial post, I do believe HZ still produces amazing soundtracks, to me they just don't resonate or move me as much as the older ones and it's purely subjective, but I really think it has to do with the 4th point above - I am more moved by strong themes and melodies than big synth pulses, drones and textures.

I will finish this post by posting 4 different end credits song made by HZ that I feel really demonstrate the points that were made. I chose end credits because they are not related to the visual imagery and are a bit more "neutral" than songs meant to complement scenes. None of these movies are epic/hero type of stuff. Yet, I think everyone will agree that the older songs tend to be way more focused on themes and melodies than the most recent ones:

CRIMSON TIDE (1995):



THE ROCK (1996):



GLADIATOR (2000):



TEARS OF THE SUN (2003): (same as my original post, version with onscreen credits below)








Tears Of The Sun End Credits 2003







youtu.be






INTERSTELLAR (2014):



DUNKIRK (2017):



DUNE (2021):



If you take the time to listen to all the songs above, I think the change/evolution in style becomes very obvious. On a final note - this is not a contest and these observations apply to the music for media industry as a whole rather than HZ only.

Cheers!

EDITED to add Interstellar to the mix


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## KEM (Apr 1, 2022)

I love all eras of Zimmer, but my personal favorite will always be the Zimmer/Balfe era from Batman Begins to Dunkirk, pretty much everything they did together was iconic and changed the sound of film

Now it’s Ludwig’s industry


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## Dirtgrain (Apr 2, 2022)

Kent said:


> Slander not the music of Athens, Georgia!


No offense intended to Athens. I worked over 200 wedding receptions back in the day; that song was at so many of them.


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## AEF (Apr 3, 2022)

Better movies make more memorable themes. Nobody knows the X-Men Dark Phoenix theme bc nobody saw the movie; but its an AMAZING theme and Hans’ music is the best part of that film.


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## Mrmonkey (Apr 4, 2022)

Herald of the Change, First Step, Time, A Dark Knight, Dream is Collapsing, 2049, Journey to the Line, What are You Going to do When You are Not Saving the World, A Small Measure of Peace, Solomon, Variation 1… Could go on all day listing tracks that I will listen to till I stop listening entirely. The man has amazing music pouring out of him, doesn’t matter if it’s 30 years ago or tomorrow. For all the time I’ve spent absorbed in the films he has worked on and all the hours I’ve spent listening to the same music on headphones to forget about the world, feel some emotional release or just to get taken back to all those movies I don’t care if his next music is his best or his worst so long as it’s him doing his thing. In my eyes he earned the right to just do whatever fuck he wants and be happy. I definitely think the more melodic content of his earlier work may be simply due to the directors he worked with and maybe an early need to be demonstrate more musicality, but it’s not like there isn’t rich melody and emotion in more recent works.

If his next score is on a kazoo I’ll still end up listening to it because he makes great music and keeps having the drive to make more. What he did years ago is him, what he does now is him, it may ride the waves or dictate the flows of sound of the day, it may be more or less melodic but either way it’s going to be cool. I was more surprised by the sounds that came from Dune than I thought so I’m certain that whatever mad shit he is onto next will be just as surprising.


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## gsilbers (Apr 4, 2022)

Not sure if anyone mentioned it yet but hans does his tv documentaries that are very orchestral and very cool.

Now there is a new one about dinasours.


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## jcrosby (Apr 4, 2022)

Mrmonkey said:


> I definitely thing the more melodic content of his earlier work may be simply due to the directors he worked with and maybe an early need to be demonstrate more musicality, but it’s not like there isn’t rich melody and emotion in more recent works.
> 
> If his next score is on a kazoo I’ll still end up listening to it because he makes great music and keeps having the drive to make more. What he did years ago is him, what he does now is him, it may ride the waves or dictate the flows of sound of the day, it may be more or less melodic but either way it’s going to be cool. I was more surprised by the sounds that came from Dune than I thought so I’m certain that whatever mad shit he is onto next will be just as surprising.


Film scoring has had a massive stylistic shift in the past 25 years... The ornate orchestral score is the minority in terms of big budget films, outside of perhaps the fantasy genre. For the most part minimalism, heavy use of synths/sound designed instruments/hyrbids (for lack of a better phrase) are simply the bulk of the sound of the current big budget film score. That, and or use of popular music... The film score as a genre as changed. (Not to mention exists solely to serve the film)...

I also personally like it. Minimalist music that still manages to convey a sense of awe, magnitude and power, etc, is an art in its own right. IMO Saying something profound in as few words as possible requires just as much skill, and frankly requires far more restraint.

We're also talking about scifi. IMO synths are a wonderful language as they are non-musical technological components that have been engineered to create music. I also think the use of that incredibly recognizable percussion motif brilliantly conveys Dune's primal/tribal language.


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## TomislavEP (Apr 6, 2022)

Personally, I never cared about current trends, including when it comes to music, films, and film music. That being said, I absolutely prefer soundtracks that rely more on traditional compositional devices, especially recognizable melodies and themes, to anything primarily driven by sound design, textures, minimalism, drones, etc., however cutting edge and genre-defining this might be in the context of a typical modern movie. Not that I particularly love those bombastic "epic" orchestral arrangements either. But I will always give an edge to a well-rounded piece of music that can potentially function even outside the confines of the film itself. Many film pieces by my favorite composers, Vangelis and Morricone, can be listened to as such, and I believe that a wider audience often knows these works without necessarily having seen the films themselves. Furthermore, I honestly think that memorable film music can make a forgettable film unforgettable, but not vice versa.

As a composer whose path doesn't seem to lead toward being primarily a media composer, as a huge film buff, and a late 80's - early 90's child, I'm certainly very biased about all this. But I definitely prefer older movies and music to almost everything released in more recent years. I feel the same about the works by the great HZ.


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## ThomasNL (Jul 1, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> Not sure if anyone mentioned it yet but hans does his tv documentaries that are very orchestral and very cool.
> 
> Now there is a new one about dinasours.



To be fair, most of these projects are from bleeding fingers. Of course he probably does some very important talking and negotiating but they are far less HZ then his movie scores.

I think Hans' strong skill always has been finding a unique sound. And to be honest most of his older scores all sound the same. Especially Crimson Tides, Gladiator and Pirates. His last movies all have had a VERY different sound. From Badman to Dunkirk to Interstellar to Dune, all very different in my opinion.



> Better movies make more memorable themes. Nobody knows the X-Men Dark Phoenix theme bc nobody saw the movie; but its an AMAZING theme and Hans’ music is the best part of that film.


I agree. People keep forgetting the importance of recognition.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 1, 2022)

Hans has only grown as a composer since his early work. He’s also become more daring - when composers often grow less so historically, or settle into a predictable style. 

He’s easily the most diverse composer in film which separates him even from the great John Williams. His greatest similarity to JW is in psychological insight to picture and story telling. In that aspect, they are both peerless. 

On top of HZ’s protean gifts is the fact that one has no idea what he’s going to do next - including him if you listen to him talk about it. That’s a rare thing among artists who as I said, are prone to settle into a style - by choice or by demand - as is often the case in film via the temp track. Mr. Zimmer keeps choosing to go his own way it seems.


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## composer_nico.maximilian (Oct 17, 2022)

Not sure. When I was at HZ Live I couldn't hear a big difference in the style. They played Music from different stages of his career. And you can definitely tell that they all have things in common. Strong Ryhtms, lots of Low End, simple Riffs and great Melodies that connect these things. I think a big part of this is nostalgia. Hans Zimmer himself hasn't changed. His core elements are still the same. That goes for every music human.


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## robgb (Oct 17, 2022)

Why is this thread even necessary?


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## davidson (Oct 17, 2022)

robgb said:


> Why is this thread even necessary?


It probably gives Hans a little chuckle.


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## handz (Oct 17, 2022)

Of course, he started the era of "no themes and melodies" and this is why we didn't get anything really memorable from him since then (and I really love Dune - but it is not what I would call memorable)


NekujaK said:


> ^^^^ This exactly. A film score exists to support a film. Period. If someone feels the need to evaluate or criticize film music, then do so within the context for which the music was intended; i.e., as part of a scene.



I really don't like this opinion and I am surprised that someone comes with it on a composers forum. This way, directors can just use any generic music in most movies as music is often hardly heard exposed, still the ultimate goal of a good score is to support the action on screen but also to be a well crafted music on its own. This approach is way harder of course. If the music has its own oscar and I think it is (or since ever was ) one of the most important parts of the movie it deserves to be also judged on its own not just how it works in the movie.


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## NekujaK (Oct 17, 2022)

handz said:


> I really don't like this opinion and I am surprised that someone comes with it on a composers forum. This way, directors can just use any generic music in most movies as music is often hardly heard exposed, still the ultimate goal of a good score is to support the action on screen but also to be a well crafted music on its own. This approach is way harder of course. If the music has its own oscar and I think it is (or since ever was ) one of the most important parts of the movie it deserves to be also judged on its own not just how it works in the movie.


I've got to think that the Oscar for best score actually does consider how the music works within the context of a film, and not just as a standalone piece of music. After all, most Academy members are not musicians and wouldn't know the first thing about evaluating music on its own terms.

But of course, this is only relevant for those who believe the Oscars are actually a valid measure of objective quality, and not a commercially-driven enterprise designed to promote the film industry. I don't place a lot of weight on the Oscars. Naturally, I'd love to win one, but are they really picking the "Best" of anything? Can anyone, for that matter?

But I digress...

Folks can choose to evaluate film music however they want - with or without the film in mind. But I think it's always important to be aware that when the composer created the music, s/he did so under guidance from the director and possibly other creative stakeholders. Film composers work within very specific constraints, and the only goal of the music is to support the drama, action, and emotion of the film. So that's the most apprpriate context for evaluating the music.

I've heard it said by more than one filmmaker that if a movie has a bad score, it's the director's fault, never the composer's. Directors often shape the overall sound of a score through the placement of temp tracks (it happened in Star Wars even), the hiring of a particular composer, and through intensive exchange of ideas with the composer. The level of involvement from directors can vary from micromanaging the music in every scene to a mostly hands-off approach, but either way, the director is the one who must be satisfied at the end of the day. Film composers always work in the service of the director and the film - it's not about endulging their own creative whims.

Making movies is a highly collaborative endeavor, and all of the creative elements from lighting, acting, writing, wardrobe, set design, cinematogrphy, special effects, foley, and music must all cohesively meld together to create a great final product. The success of any of these individual elements is ultimately measured by how well they contribute to the overall experience of the movie. Brad Pitt is a great actor, but his hilariously brilliant portrayal of a "Pikey" in Snatch would be totally inappropriate in a film like Benjamin Button and would be considered a misfire. Not to mention the director's judgment would come into question, as well.

Context is everything.


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## handz (Oct 21, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> I've got to think that the Oscar for best score actually does consider how the music works within the context of a film, and not just as a standalone piece of music. After all, most Academy members are not musicians and wouldn't know the first thing about evaluating music on its own terms.
> 
> But of course, this is only relevant for those who believe the Oscars are actually a valid measure of objective quality, and not a commercially-driven enterprise designed to promote the film industry. I don't place a lot of weight on the Oscars. Naturally, I'd love to win one, but are they really picking the "Best" of anything? Can anyone, for that matter?
> 
> ...


Ehm, I didnt say they consider it only as a standalone but I hope you don't want to imply that the quality of the music itself doesn't have any impact on the judgment. Most of the JW movies which won the Oscar has memorable, now super famous melodies that became popular music on their own because of how well they work on their own and this makes them better than others, they work great in a movie and they are also great as standalone music. Actually they shine way more as standalone compositions sometimes as they are buried under he SFX and dialogues. There are many movies where music works perfectly as well but as standalone they are not enjoyable to listen to.

Please do not start the debate about if the Oscars are valid, this way we end up at the that nothing matters actually, as everything is subjective and well we can throw everything our society is built on out of the cliff as music and art are subjective and everyone has different taste... I do not care for Oscars maybe past 10 years but before ( when the music actually was really good in the most of major movies) they had some relevance.

" So that's the most apprpriate context for evaluating the music."
No this is not true, music can be good both in the movie and from the musical standpoint or just in the movie and weak as standalone thing. If you have to choose one, I think it always is better to select the one that is actually also good music, not just a backdrop. And in the past, judging from the fact that 99,999%of music that won had at least one super strong memorable theme, this was part of the decision, as people are attached to good melodies more than to just some "weaving of emotions" - naturally.

"Directors often shape the overall sound of a score through the placement of temp tracks (it happened in Star Wars even)"
this happened in SW yes, but I doubt it was common for most movies. Of course the director has final word but they usually trust the composer they choose to some extent. I spent quite a long time in the past listening rejected scores and scores that replaced them and watching all the fan videos adding the rejected music to the movie itself and well, directors dance in mysterious ways sometimes.
anyway, 

Music that works both in a movie and also as great music itself > >> music that only works in a movie
I would think this is a basic logic of things. Not that it matters now when the "trend" dictates music to be ll but listenable on its own.


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## Saxer (Oct 22, 2022)

The most memorable stuff is the music you heard often. 
Music you like is heard more often when it (and you) is older.
That may cause the feeling that older music is more memorable.


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## MartinH. (Oct 22, 2022)

Saxer said:


> The most memorable stuff is the music you heard often.
> Music you like is heard more often when it (and you) is older.
> That may cause the feeling that older music is more memorable.


Maybe I care so much more about game soundtracks than movie soundtracks because of that. I don't rewatch movies usually and a game - even one I didn't finish - often has me listening to the music for 20+ hours.


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