# My mortal attempt to imitate John Williams



## sIR dORT (Nov 24, 2020)

Emphasis on "mortal"  

In all seriousness, this was a great orchestration/writing exercise and I learned a lot through it. If you have any tips for orchestration/arrangment, please share. Hope you guys like it! 



DJM


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## fleita (Nov 24, 2020)

I am only learning orchestral music, and can't give any tips or advises. Your track sounds amazing in my Bose headsets.


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Nov 25, 2020)

Cool! I think it's you who need to give us advice on how to achieve such a realistic mockup. And the first thing you could do is tell us about the libraries that were involved and about your experience with them. These fast strings and woodwinds are particularly impressive. Well done!


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## G.Poncelet (Nov 25, 2020)

Excellent work !
Nothing to add, it just sounds very good 
I agree with @Vladimir Bulaev, I'd be happy if you could explain what is your workflow, what libraries you use, etc
It would benefit to a lot of people here.
Thanks for sharing !


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## jules (Nov 25, 2020)

Pretty awsome work ! The sound is a bit too wet for my taste but the writing is top notch !


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## N.Caffrey (Nov 25, 2020)

pretty cool ending!


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## sIR dORT (Nov 25, 2020)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> Cool! I think it's you who need to give us advice on how to achieve such a realistic mockup. And the first thing you could do is tell us about the libraries that were involved and about your experience with them. These fast strings and woodwinds are particularly impressive. Well done!





G.Poncelet said:


> Excellent work !
> Nothing to add, it just sounds very good
> I agree with @Vladimir Bulaev, I'd be happy if you could explain what is your workflow, what libraries you use, etc
> It would benefit to a lot of people here.
> Thanks for sharing !


I'll make it pretty easy for you, it was pretty much all HWO (everything gold, except strings which are diamond). Choirs are Fryeja and Olympus elements, and then I layered JXL trombones a3 to add some bite to the longs and provide some tighter shorts (HWB bones have very loose staccatos). 

As of right now my workflow is messy so there isn't a whole lot to share, but I will say that those quick strings and winds at the end are pre-recorded runs, and I timed them up to make sure they hit the top and bottom notes at the same time. The rest of the woodwind runs are pre-recorded ones as well. I also used the trumpets triple tongue patch in combination with the staccatisimo patch to create those quick lines. In general HWO has always been my main (and for the most part only) orchestral library, so I've learned a lot of little tricks that add realism.

Hope that helps!


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## jules (Nov 25, 2020)

sIR dORT said:


> those quick strings and winds at the end are pre-recorded runs


Thanks for these details. I suppose you're talking about cinestring runs and hollywoodwinds, here ?


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## AudioLoco (Nov 25, 2020)

Awesome!


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## Gingerbread (Nov 25, 2020)

I just had a peruse through your Soundcloud music. You're _really_ damn good!


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## NathanTiemeyer (Nov 25, 2020)

Great composition and production value here! Excellent work.  

I'm wondering what the percussion is that starts at 0:25? Sounds like a Timpani that's EQ'd with maybe a bass drum keeping the beat? 

My tip is keep creating, you're on a roll! lol


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## I like music (Nov 25, 2020)

But ... but ... HWO samples are more than 10 years old!!!

Don't they go mouldy or something?

Can we sticky this and tell people who say "looking to buy my first orchestral library" and ask them to at least trial HWO via composer cloud for a couple of months and see how they get on?

@sIR dORT - very nice composition. And nice use of these excellent samples.


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## José Herring (Nov 25, 2020)

sIR dORT said:


> Emphasis on "mortal"
> 
> In all seriousness, this was a great orchestration/writing exercise and I learned a lot through it. If you have any tips for orchestration/arrangment, please share. Hope you guys like it!
> 
> ...



That is insane! Insanely good!

Yeah you need to do a tips and tricks video.


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## sIR dORT (Nov 25, 2020)

jules said:


> Thanks for these details. I suppose you're talking about cinestring runs and hollywoodwinds, here ?


Nope, just the pre-recorded runs in HWO winds and strings. I use the wind runs a lot, but usually stay away from the string runs for a few reasons, but they worked well here. I forgot to mention that the harp I'm using is the SA one.


NathanTiemeyer said:


> Great composition and production value here! Excellent work.
> 
> I'm wondering what the percussion is that starts at 0:25? Sounds like a Timpani that's EQ'd with maybe a bass drum keeping the beat?
> 
> My tip is keep creating, you're on a roll! lol


Thanks! That is also an exception to HWO - it's some bass drum samples from G town church sampling project (https://archive.org/details/GTownChurchSamplingProject). No RR but it has enough samples to sound pretty decent, especially the bass drum ones.


hbjdk said:


> This sounds great! For me it is kinda unreal to hear this was made with "just" Hollywood Orchestra Gold (and some choirs + the JXL trombones as you mention). If a composer knows what he's doing, the things you can do with this 'old' library is freaking amazing.
> 
> One question: Are you satisfied with HWO Gold Percussion, or are you looking to supplement it with some other stuff?
> 
> Okay, two questions (!): Are you looking to supplement HWO Gold with something during the sales?


Very true. Although like I said, you need to learn how to use the library to get a good mockup out of it. But the library has so much potential if you know/learn how to find it. 

I've been pretty satisfied with HWP gold. I've augmented it with some 8dio stuff, G-town perc, and SAGA perc from Red Room audio, so it has some help, but I think it definitely holds its own. 

In terms of supplementing it, if SA's upcoming AR1 libs hold up to HWO (legato, shorts, # of articulations, etc), then yes, but only because I'm not great with reverbs but like wet samples more than dry ones. So being able to have a roomy sound baked into the samples (i.e. upcoming AR1 libs) might make me switch. I'm also looking for some chamber strings (or something close). HWS are fantastic but too big-sounding to treat as chamber strings, so they don't excel at a chamber/more detailed sound.


José Herring said:


> That is insane! Insanely good!
> 
> Yeah you need to do a tips and tricks video.


Thank you, glad you liked it! I've never made any sort of video and don't have any gear, but I'll see what I can do.


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## José Herring (Nov 25, 2020)

sIR dORT said:


> Thank you, glad you liked it! I've never made any sort of video and don't have any gear, but I'll see what I can do.



I'm no expert on that but I did do one using this https://obsproject.com/

You will need a way to route audio. There was a program but I can't find it. I'll keep looking.


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## José Herring (Nov 25, 2020)

Here it is:





__





VB-Audio VoiceMeeter Banana


VoiceMeeter Banana, the Advanced Virtual Audio Mixer by V.Burel




vb-audio.com


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## toddkreuz (Nov 25, 2020)

José Herring said:


> I'm no expert on that but I did do one using this https://obsproject.com/
> 
> You will need a way to route audio. There was a program but I can't find it. I'll keep looking.



Also remember though, many soundcards have a "Loopback" function which eliminates the need
for Voicemeeter. Check your soundcard manual before installing Voicemeeter.


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## Tombendix (Nov 30, 2020)

Epic David! Some lovely flourishes and details in there, which have all of the hallmarks of a great ear


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## tebling (Nov 30, 2020)

You know it's great when someone (me) wants to mock up your mockup. Bravo!


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## José Herring (Nov 30, 2020)

sIR dORT said:


> Emphasis on "mortal"
> 
> In all seriousness, this was a great orchestration/writing exercise and I learned a lot through it. If you have any tips for orchestration/arrangment, please share. Hope you guys like it!
> 
> ...



So how's it going on that tutorial? No pressure.


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## sIR dORT (Nov 30, 2020)

José Herring said:


> So how's it going on that tutorial? No pressure.


I'd like to do it soon, but I don't think I will be able to start working on it until around the 16th or so. I'm in my first semester at college and finals just started, so I don't have a lot of time on my hands at the moment  But again I'll get working on it as soon as I can!


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## sIR dORT (Nov 30, 2020)

@José Herring do you want the video to walk through my track and talk about some tips/tricks along the way or a video just about some tips/tricks I've learned/am learning?


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## José Herring (Nov 30, 2020)

sIR dORT said:


> @José Herring do you want the video to walk through my track and talk about some tips/tricks along the way or a video just about some tips/tricks I've learned/am learning?


Thanks for asking. I'm going to get personal but not in a negative way.

I perceived that you are young and that you are new to this. Us older dudes, me for example, got locked into a way of thinking about samples because the libraries we used were so limited that they could only do X,Y,Z well. I would Never Ever attempt to do a Williams style anything with samples beyond just a an experiment. 

But, then some younger dude who doesn't have those limitations in mind, sets out and does a bang up job on it. 

So basically I would compare the ideas I have vs. the ideas of somebody who isn't jaded has.

Personally tips and tricks videos are useless to me. What is useful is why you made the decisions you did and how the patches choices effected that decision or how the decision were influenced by the patch. Then breaking down the mockup section by section.


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## cloudbuster (Dec 3, 2020)

sIR dORT said:


> I'll make it pretty easy for you, it was pretty much all HWO (everything gold, except strings which are diamond). Choirs are Fryeja and Olympus elements, and then I layered JXL trombones a3 to add some bite to the longs and provide some tighter shorts (HWB bones have very loose staccatos).
> 
> As of right now my workflow is messy so there isn't a whole lot to share, but I will say that those quick strings and winds at the end are pre-recorded runs, and I timed them up to make sure they hit the top and bottom notes at the same time. The rest of the woodwind runs are pre-recorded ones as well. I also used the trumpets triple tongue patch in combination with the staccatisimo patch to create those quick lines. In general HWO has always been my main (and for the most part only) orchestral library, so I've learned a lot of little tricks that add realism.
> 
> Hope that helps!


Excellent work; makes me stick to my trusty 'old' Hollywood libraries even more ... at least for the more serious jobs, hehe ...


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## MauroPantin (Dec 3, 2020)

This mockup could probably destroy the entire black friday economy of this industry. Congrats!

I'm more interested to know if this was orchestrated and played directly within your DAW or if you worked this out on paper/notation first before reaching for the samples.


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## sIR dORT (Dec 3, 2020)

MauroPantin said:


> This mockup could probably destroy the entire black friday economy of this industry. Congrats!
> 
> I'm more interested to know if this was orchestrated and played directly within your DAW or if you worked this out on paper/notation first before reaching for the samples.


Hahaha thank you!

All done inside Cubase, no paper/notation beforehand. Probably should learn to do that at some point, but for me it is a far less enjoyable way to write.


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## toddkreuz (Dec 4, 2020)

sIR dORT said:


> Hahaha thank you!
> 
> All done inside Cubase, no paper/notation beforehand. Probably should learn to do that at some point, but for me it is a far less enjoyable way to write.


Have you studied music, or interval theory? Or is that just all instinct/ears? 
You're very talented either way, but if you did that with no music theory study, that
is damn impressive.


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## sIR dORT (Dec 4, 2020)

toddkreuz said:


> Have you studied music, or interval theory? Or is that just all instinct/ears?
> You're very talented either way, but if you did that with no music theory study, that
> is damn impressive.


Thank you, it's all instinct/ears. I've played piano and can read sheet music fairly well, so I have a backround in that sense, but besides that, just using my ear.


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## SteveK (Dec 30, 2020)

Really loved this thank you!


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## Joshua Day (Feb 24, 2021)

WOW @sIR dORT this is excellent!! John Williams is my inspiration as well and I have tried to emulate him a little bit with minimal success. Your composition reminds me of _Anakin vs Obi Wan_. 

I use the East West HWO Gold as well, and when I have done runs I have programmed them in using the playable runs patch. The one thing I don't like though is that the strings keyswitch patches are pretty useless, and you are forced to put all articulations on separate tracks in Studio One. I prefer keyswitching and fewer tracks. However, in my latest piece, I bit the bullet and just used a ton of tracks: 

It sounds as though your HWO pre-recorded runs give you the classic John Williams harmonic minor ups and downs, but maybe I just can't tell because they are so fast. I'd love a video tutorial on how you did this!


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## sIR dORT (Feb 25, 2021)

Joshua Day said:


> WOW @sIR dORT this is excellent!! John Williams is my inspiration as well and I have tried to emulate him a little bit with minimal success. Your composition reminds me of _Anakin vs Obi Wan_.
> 
> I use the East West HWO Gold as well, and when I have done runs I have programmed them in using the playable runs patch. The one thing I don't like though is that the strings keyswitch patches are pretty useless, and you are forced to put all articulations on separate tracks in Studio One. I prefer keyswitching and fewer tracks. However, in my latest piece, I bit the bullet and just used a ton of tracks:
> 
> It sounds as though your HWO pre-recorded runs give you the classic John Williams harmonic minor ups and downs, but maybe I just can't tell because they are so fast. I'd love a video tutorial on how you did this!



Thanks Josh! That piece definitely inspired this one quite a bit.

Your track here is great, I really liked it! I agree about the keyswitch patches in HWO, they aren't the best, but I actually prefer laying out each individual articulation in Cubase to using expression maps or keyswtiches just because they give me more control and the ability to combine articulations (this is the @Blakus strategy). But I think you can still get a good sound from keyswitches.

I know people around here sometimes hate the "it works well in the mix" idea, but with those runs, that's exactly what's happening, because if I remember correctly they're natural minor (with a bit of a sliding/portamento feel) not harmonic. I'm sorry to say I don't think I can do a video right now (I'm at school), but if you have any questions just pm me and I can flesh it out a bit.


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## Joshua Day (Feb 25, 2021)

Thanks for your input! Yeah, having the articulations on separate tracks does give you more control, but what a mess of chopped up tracks. So hard to find your way around after a while.


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