# BMI vs ASCAP



## Lawson. (May 24, 2015)

Which is better and why? I'm leaning towards ASCAP as you get a ton of member benefits and they have lots of workshops. Plus, it seems odd that your PRO would be owned by the people using your tracks (BMI) vs owned by the artists/publishers/composers (ASCAP).

Thanks!


----------



## jaeroe (May 24, 2015)

Not sure what you mean by BMI being owned by the people using your tracks. The big structural different between the two is that ASCAP (American Society of Composers and Publishers) are governed by a board that is made of its members. BMI (Broadcast Music, Inc.) is just a company. They have different criteria for determining how often something plays and how much they are going to pay out for such performances.

You might think by the structure of these organizations that ASCAP is for the everyman/woman and BMI is more of a corporate animal. But, that isn't completely true. ASCAP has had its fair share of controversies re the way board members are elected nowadays and the way some of those board members have skewed the payment system towards song writers and away from composers, at least for television. There have also been claims that ASCAP is better for live performance and BMI is really more broadcast oriented, but there are plenty of artists who make the bulk of their living from live performance who are members of BMI.

You'll find people who swear by each and people have have complaints about each. ASCAP does have some great programs. BMI has had a much better presence at various film and music festivals outside of Sundance, but that is starting to change. BMI used to have a great conducting workshop in LA - not sure if that is still going on anymore.

I'm a member as ASCAP. I have an issue with song writers getting paid more than composers for the same placement on tv, but both BMI and ASCAP are guilty of that skewed payment system. I've had a few issues, but they get resolved and my experience is that ASCAP has been great at taking care of things. I know people who are very happy with BMI as well and Doreen Ringer Ross is great.

In short - pick one and try it out. If you don't' like it you can change down the road. There are windows, but you can if you really want to.


----------



## charlieclouser (May 24, 2015)

I've been BMI since I started back in my songwriting and album production days, before I was doing any scoring at all. I believe I chose BMI on the advice of the guy who signed me to Warner-Chappell as a songwriter some 20+ years ago. I will say that they are very reachable, and yes, Doreen Ringer-Ross (who is the main point of contact for film and tv composers) is absolutely great. Completely dedicated to us, and it's not just a face she puts on from 9 to 5. She somehow manages to have a personal relationship with thousands of composers, music supervisors, and studio execs. 

The few times I have had questions about how things work, what exactly is in my BMI repertoire, or what the differences are in rates of pay between cable / network / film, she has either answered my questions directly or put me in touch with someone who can give me the answers that same day. My business manager has been able to do some pretty slick data-mining with them so that I can get detailed pie charts that show my royalty revenue by project and territory, without him needing to enter all that data manually - and that helps me prioritize what types of projects I want to take on based on their potential for royalty income.

So, yeah.... kind of a BMI fanboy here, but, in my experience they've been great to work with. And I second what jaeroe says about it seems that ASCAP is more tilted toward songwriters / recording artists / live performers and BMI seems more tilted towards composers doing stuff for broadcast. I don't know why I have that perception, but I've thought that for many years and I hear people echoing that thought frequently.


----------



## jaeroe (May 24, 2015)

My comment about ASCAP paying out more for songs than score applies to both ASCAP and BMI. At ASCAP it came about as a result of the board being stacked with song writers and then them changing the procedures by which people can get elected to the board. As far as I understand it, BMI just followed suit. Composers get screwed in that sense at both places.

Both BMI and ASCAP have huge names for both composers and songwriters. The things I mentioned about liver performance vs broadcast were just different things you hear people say. But, if you look the the membership of each, they both seem to have the same makeup of members. In other words - I don't think you can go wrong with either.

My P.R.O. income is from film and tv stuff - 'underscore' as it's classified by the P.R.O's. I'm happy with the money I have coming in from ASCAP and haven't seen anything to indicate to me that I'm getting a raw deal from them.


----------



## KEnK (May 25, 2015)

This has always been a big curiosity for me-
so I hope more people offer their 2¢.

But what the hell is the difference between a "songwriter" and a "composer"?
Other than lyrics, it seems entirely semantic to me.

I mean a songwriter composes-
a composer writes songs

What is that about?

k


----------



## rgames (May 25, 2015)

I joined ASCAP because I came from the concert music world and was familiar with ASCAP composers but really didn't know anything about BMI composers. As others have said, I have no idea if that's just an anecdote or a consequence of something fundamentally different between the two.

I will say, however, that ASCAP has screwed me on some royalties. Don't be fooled into thinking that they really care about you. They don't.

And yeah, the composer vs. songwriter deal is stupid but it was changed recently. I think there's still a discrepancy but not as much.

And ASCAP still has stupid deals where they basically give your music away for almost nothing and you can't opt out. That really pisses me off and I've never gotten a good explanation for why they allow it.

So, yeah, I'm not a big fan of ASCAP but I don't know that BMI is any better. The reasons for needing PROs are quickly fading - I'd be happy to see them go away so I don't have to put up with their BS.

I'd be much better off if I had control of my music.

rgames


----------



## windshore (May 25, 2015)

I would love to know someone who has been a composer for TV, esp cable, who splits the writer's share with a partner from the other PRO. I'm sure there are people who've compared rates for the same cues from both BMI and ASCAP.

I know the difference will vary, but there's got to be some real world experiences we could learn from..?


----------



## Lawson. (May 26, 2015)

Thanks for all of the responses! I must say none of this has helped me out that much as each person has a different preference. :lol:

I did some research and apparently John Powell, Henry Jackman, Jeff Rona, Michael Giacchino, TSFH, and even Hans use ASCAP. Probably will go with them as these guys seem to be doing pretty well using them.


----------



## pkm (May 26, 2015)

Lawson. @ Tue May 26 said:


> Thanks for all of the responses! I must say none of this has helped me out that much as each person has a different preference. :lol:
> 
> I did some research and apparently John Powell, Henry Jackman, Jeff Rona, Michael Giacchino, TSFH, and even Hans use ASCAP. Probably will go with them as these guys seem to be doing pretty well using them.



You'd be just as impressed with the BMI list.


----------



## Vin (May 26, 2015)

Lawson. @ 26/5/2015 said:


> Thanks for all of the responses! I must say none of this has helped me out that much as each person has a different preference. :lol:
> 
> I did some research and apparently John Powell, Henry Jackman, Jeff Rona, Michael Giacchino, TSFH, and even Hans use ASCAP. Probably will go with them as these guys seem to be doing pretty well using them.



But BMI has the greatest film composer of all time on their list. :mrgreen:


----------



## sluggo (May 26, 2015)

For every composer who says ASCAP or BMI is the best there are 12 who will say it's not. It mostly comes down to personal experiences you will have with either. Or both...because eventually you may own publishing companies and then you are basically doing business with both PROs.

So try to find one good overwhelming reason to be with one. Maybe a particular contact there is very friendly towards you. Maybe you work with someone who is dialed in well. 

Both PROs have a mountain of never-ending administration to handle and both deal with angry composers on the daily.


----------



## Lawson. (May 26, 2015)

@Paul and Vin

Well that's just lovely. :| :mrgreen:



sluggo @ Tue May 26 said:


> For every composer who says ASCAP or BMI is the best there are 12 who will say it's not. It mostly comes down to personal experiences you will have with either. Or both...because eventually you may own publishing companies and then you are basically doing business with both PROs.
> 
> So try to find one good overwhelming reason to be with one. Maybe a particular contact there is very friendly towards you. Maybe you work with someone who is dialed in well.
> 
> Both PROs have a mountain of never-ending administration to handle and both deal with angry composers on the daily.



I suppose at this rate it's just the one with more member benefits? Afaik ASCAP has almost double the benefits as BMI. I'll ask around a bit more in other places and see if I can find any major reason to join a certain one.


----------



## sluggo (May 26, 2015)

One thing...ASCAP has a user area on their website that allows you to see your cuesheets and other important data within which BMI does not have. I can't imagine how many more administration-related phone calls flood in to BMI compared to ASCAP when one can easily get answers via the ASCAP website. If I had no other reason...this would be a deciding factor for me.


----------



## MichaelL (May 26, 2015)

Lawson. @ Tue May 26 said:


> Thanks for all of the responses! I must say none of this has helped me out that much as each person has a different preference. :lol:
> 
> I did some research and apparently John Powell, Henry Jackman, Jeff Rona, Michael Giacchino, TSFH, and even Hans use ASCAP. Probably will go with them as these guys seem to be doing pretty well using them.



No offense, but why would that matter, unless you are writing film music, at their level?

If your interest is in TV backend, I've been a member of ASCAP and BMI. I switched to BMI after being with ASCAP for many years. 

I had a co-publisher / co-writer who was with BMI when I was still involved with ASCAP. We had the same number of cues (Theme Music + BKGRND ) in the same TV shows, same number of performances, cue sheets etc etc. The difference between ASCAP and BMI was that ASCAP failed to detect 60 to 75% of the performances. The other part was getting 5 times more from BMI. Needless to say I switched.

Remember that cue sheets only tell your PRO that your music was used. They still have to detect how often, when, where, and the number of performances etc. If they screw that up, you lose. 

That said...BMI has now changed its royalty calculation methods to include Nielsen Ratings data, and my royalties are half what they were, BUT still 2X what I was getting from ASCAP.

YMMV.

Michael


----------



## jaeroe (May 26, 2015)

KEnK @ Mon May 25 said:


> This has always been a big curiosity for me-
> so I hope more people offer their 2¢.
> 
> But what the hell is the difference between a "songwriter" and a "composer"?
> ...



The P.R.O.s (ASCAP, BMI, etc) pay out more money for a song (vocal with lyrics) playing in the exact same spot/function as an instrumental cue. They are paid the same by the networks, but they pay out up to 10 times more for a song as compared to a piece with no vocals/lyrics. The distinction for composer and song writer is made by the P.R.O.s, not the people writing music. It changes a little a few years ago, but it is still a huge discrepancy.


----------



## jaeroe (May 26, 2015)

MichaelL @ Tue May 26 said:


> Lawson. @ Tue May 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for all of the responses! I must say none of this has helped me out that much as each person has a different preference. :lol:
> ...



And that is the primary difference between the two. ASCAP 'surveys' broadcast and BMI as another method for crediting performances to members. You could argue that BMI is more accurate, but that doesn't mean that every person would always be paid more by BMI than by ASCAP. I've heard people make claims both ways.

It will be interesting to see how this all changes in the future - especially the ASCAP survey method.


----------



## Lawson. (May 26, 2015)

MichaelL @ Tue May 26 said:


> No offense, but why would that matter, unless you are writing film music, at their level?
> 
> If your interest is in TV backend, I've been a member of ASCAP and BMI. I switched to BMI after being with ASCAP for many years.
> 
> ...



I would think that people at their level would be using the best PRO out there, so why wouldn't I want to be in the same PRO?

My interest is film/video game/trailer house, not as much TV (but if I got a good opportunity for that I'd take it). The main reason I'm suddenly needing to join one is because I have the chance to be an in-house composer for a couple of video game library things and they require me to be represented by a PRO.

Wow, that's crazy. On the other hand, I've heard people say the opposite. Ahhhhhh I think I'm going to do a coin toss. LOL


----------



## jaeroe (May 26, 2015)

Lawson. @ Tue May 26 said:


> I would think that people at their level would be using the best PRO out there, so why wouldn't I want to be in the same PRO?
> 
> My interest is film/video game/trailer house, not as much TV (but if I got a good opportunity for that I'd take it). The main reason I'm suddenly needing to join one is because I have the chance to be an in-house composer for a couple of video game library things and they require me to be represented by a PRO.
> 
> Wow, that's crazy. On the other hand, I've heard people say the opposite. Ahhhhhh I think I'm going to do a coin toss. LOL



The truth is, you won't get the same treatment that the A list people get, no matter where you go.... until you're one of the A list.

Both BMI and ASCAP have a lot of the biggest names. You just have to pick one. If you're primarily doing library work for video games there probably won't be a lot of royalties for you going through a P.R.O. anyway.


----------



## jeffc (May 26, 2015)

jaeroe @ Tue May 26 said:


> KEnK @ Mon May 25 said:
> 
> 
> > This has always been a big curiosity for me-
> ...




That's actually not true anymore for Ascap. They stopped treating every song as a feature performance, which does pay about 5 times as much as a background. Now songs, unless they are actually featured (they have a whole criteria for this, on camera singing, etc) they are not paid as a feature anymore, which greatly diminished the payout for songwriters. It bumped up the value for background instrumental a little bit.

Also, that's untrue about the survey and Ascap as well. Meaning, in the past some cable was paid on a sample basis, they'd take random samples and if you showed up great, you got paid, but if you did not, you didn't get paid. But most of the larger cable networks and all broadcast TV are surveyed and every performance is paid. No samples. Just to clarify. 

You always hear one better than the other, some pay better cable than broadcast, etc. But I would, as someone else said, choose to go somewhere that you have a personal relationship. That's worth more than any difference in pay between the two. Because I think over time they probably balance out in the wash...


----------



## JohnG (May 26, 2015)

yes, it is hard, but my financially-focused friends all said BMI was better for the royalties I used to get, so I went there. I took the conducting workshop a while back and met some great people.

I've found them INCREDIBLE when there has been a problem collecting royalties; actually almost unbelievably helpful and effective.

BMI has a good roster too (Desplat, John Williams, Brian Tyler, Snuffy Walden, Mike Post, etc.), so I doubt that's the best way to decide. (Although if Mike Post hasn't figured out who pays the best, I'd be surprised).

It's all a wild guess anyway. In about 5 minutes the business model that prevailed for all these years is going to be nothing but a pleasant memory, so it's all up for grabs.


----------



## germancomponist (May 26, 2015)

Both earn/make/steel/find/pick up their money because you allow them to do it.... . :-D

Do they at first work for themselves or for you? :mrgreen: 

Money Money Money is so funny ... . o/~


----------



## rgames (May 26, 2015)

jeffc @ Tue May 26 said:


> most of the larger cable networks and all broadcast TV are surveyed and every performance is paid. No samples. Just to clarify.


The word "most" is the key there. There are still smaller cable channels where they don't capture everything. And even when you present them with the evidence, they don't care.

The NBA channel got a bunch of my music from some library last year and I never got a dime for it. I could never figure out where they got it but their production folks never disputed my claim. Granted, the performance royalties probably would have amounted to no more than a couple hundred dollars but still, it's the principle.

ASCAP's response was "Unfortuantely [sic], it does not appear that the programs in question have entered the sample survey."

So just remember that ASCAP is there to fight for you.

Except when they don't feel like it.

rgames


----------



## jeffc (May 26, 2015)

rgames @ Tue May 26 said:


> jeffc @ Tue May 26 said:
> 
> 
> > most of the larger cable networks and all broadcast TV are surveyed and every performance is paid. No samples. Just to clarify.
> ...




Totally agree with you on that. In my experience though, if the network is so small that it's only surveyed, then the $ per minute would be so tiny, that even if the performances showed up it wouldn't amount to anything substantial....


----------



## Brobdingnagian (May 26, 2015)

JohnG @ Tue May 26 said:


> In about 5 minutes the business model that prevailed for all these years is going to be nothing but a pleasant memory, so it's all up for grabs.



I think about this every single day... Working harder than ever to make the most of it now and prepare for the shift...


Quoting Jeffc "You always hear one better than the other, some pay better cable than broadcast, etc. But I would, as someone else said, choose to go somewhere that you have a personal relationship. That's worth more than any difference in pay between the two. Because I think over time they probably balance out in the wash..."

^ this

-B


----------

