# Behringer---Attack of the Clones



## José Herring (Jan 28, 2020)

Anybody partaking the in clone wars?

I'm seriously interested in a lot of their synths even the Moog Modular clone they have coming up. I've poured over every youtube vid I can find but the only one that I think sounds really decent is the Pro-one. Even what they posted of the Moog Modular clone, they are so excited about it but I just hear from the demos that they didn't get the filters right even though they seemed to have done a good job with the rest of it. But, if it doesn't have moog filters then it's not a Moog imo. And, I feel the same way about all of their clones, it comes close but then there's one thing that's just totally off either the filters, or lack of bass or something.

But, I'm thinking of diving in on at least the Pro-One. Anybody have any experience with these clones yet? I'm at the point in my life where I'm not settling any more. If it isn't pro sounding then I'm not getting it. Also, I'm old enough to remember when the name Behringer meant total crap. I've so blocked everything Behringer from my mind that it has taken me weeks to learn to even spell it. So that is weighing on me heavily as well. I can't count the amount of times I've gone to the music store to test out Deepmind12 only to leave just because I couldn't bring myself to purchase a Behringer product. Deepmind12 isn't half bad either. I mean it doesn't come close to Davesmith or the new Moog Polysynth but it does have a few really great qualities.

So seeing if anybody has gotten anything in the Behringer synth lineup. What are your opinions?

Any opinions welcomed.


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## mike_solar (Jan 28, 2020)

I've got a $5K+ eurorack system and the model-D is sitting right in the middle - and it's one of my go to's (probably since it's so easy having a full tweakable synth in the middle of all these modules). Sounds pretty incredible to me though. I've grown quite attached. If any of these fill a void in your setup and you like how they sound, you really can't go wrong.


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## gsilbers (Jan 28, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Anybody partaking the in clone wars?
> 
> I'm seriously interested in a lot of their synths even the Moog Modular clone they have coming up. I've poured over every youtube vid I can find but the only one that I think sounds really decent is the Pro-one. Even what they posted of the Moog Modular clone, they are so excited about it but I just hear from the demos that they didn't get the filters right even though they seemed to have done a good job with the rest of it. But, if it doesn't have moog filters then it's not a Moog imo. And, I feel the same way about all of their clones, it comes close but then there's one thing that's just totally off either the filters, or lack of bass or something.
> 
> ...




they are spot on. all of them. its crazy but seems like a simple business plan. hire the top end reverse engineers and make them in their humoucouls factory in china for peanuts. seriously , google their factory. i think its the size of all of Asheville (where moog has the factory) lol.

so all the hard work from moog and then once the patent is gone, here comes B to make the same but at $250. you can see the in different A/b videos with orignal of $3k vs the boog and its insane it can sound the same. same with the other ones. if you hear a different its because you are not doing blind tests. because i know youve been around a while and i know for sure, that you, just like me, see the beheringer brand as utter crap. and as cheap chinese knockoff... but that was like 10 years ago.
i recently got the u-phoria as a cheap stopgar solution and it rival my 10 yr old rme interface in preamps and converter quality. things have changed and behringer has gotten a nice little niche in the analog synth world.

but now it begs the question, why are anlog synths so expensive to beging with? behring is making $250 analog synths that sound like the original moog. or the deepmind like the roland. and that new crave synth? its a DFAM clone from moog.

turns out with so many years of reverse engineering the crap out of every musical thing out there B has been able to put china manufacturing on steroids.
so that deep mind sounds just like the real roland, the moog like the real old moog.
yea, its true and its very hard for me to admit since i hate that sort of copy cat thing. but they have made it affordable and it sounds good.

so now youll be able to get a real analog clone euro rack for a fraction of the cost. heck, youll be able to build yourself a euro rack wall like junkei xl for a fraction of the price. with $5k maybe. two sets of roland and moog 55 plus the other desktop clones that fit into eurorack module.
i think the trick will be to do like IKEA, you dont have everything IKEA, you try to get one or two expensive pieaces of furniture and then the other 12 are IKEA. (interior designer trick 


and also, dont think that dave smith is all that as well. check out the comparison videos with deepmind and rev2 and youll see. Behringer is making a oberheim now, so that will be a better comparison when it comes out.

but yeah.. hard to admit they finally got something right, even if its on the hard work of others.


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## gsilbers (Jan 28, 2020)

the issue with the deepming is the onboard patches. i got a few extra ones and it was better.


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## gsilbers (Jan 28, 2020)




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## gsilbers (Jan 28, 2020)




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## José Herring (Jan 28, 2020)

Yes both of you have hit on some real truths there. 

First, It's Behringer. Yeah, I'm biased against it. Just on name alone. I heard a some Klark Teknik stuff and thought it sounded good then I learned that it was made by Behringer and that tainted it for me. Can I get over that? Sure. But so much of this business is having confidence in the tools when all your own personal confidence has worn thin. So it will take a bit but I will get there. 

Second, yes I've been patiently building a Eurorack system and it's gone painfully expensive. I use it but still haven't gotten a full synth yet. After putting $1500 into it I realized that I need a new enclosure and power supply to house my second envelope and a slew limiter. So, I'm looking for a cheaper way out for sure. Along comes Behringer with the Boog and the Pro-one and now the Boog modular. Shit, why am I putting so much into getting modules that cost $150 to $600 each when I can get whole synths for $300? So, I'm rethinking it. Get the Boog or the pro-one then get the crazy eurorack devices that do wild things others can't do.

Thanks for your input.


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## gsilbers (Jan 28, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Yes both of you have hit on some real truths there.
> 
> First, It's Behringer. Yeah, I'm biased against it. Just on name alone. I heard a some Klark Teknik stuff and thought it sounded good then I learned that it was made by Behringer and that tainted it for me. Can I get over that? Sure. But so much of this business is having confidence in the tools when all your own personal confidence has worn thin. So it will take a bit but I will get there.
> 
> ...




the Neutron synth has a lot of cool cv ins and outs. 
and for what its worth... 

you can buy different covers and .. hmm.. cover the brand name









Behringer Neutron Custom Overlay Showcase - Gearspace.com


Long before production units of the Behringer Neutron desktop semi-modular synthesizer arrived in the hands of end-user musicians, there was a lot of talk of peoples reactions - positive and negative - to the choice of red for the color of the Neutron's f



www.gearslutz.com


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## haydn12 (Jan 28, 2020)

I have a Neutron synth and find it is an amazing sounding box for the money. I had a couple Moogs years ago and this thing is much more flexible than they were at a fraction of the cost. I'm planning on adding some of the Behringer Eurorack modules in the future to it.

Jim


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## mike_solar (Jan 29, 2020)

Those new eurorack modules look great as well ...and the upcoming 2600. I currently have a Prophet 6, Prophet 12, Juno 60 and some other vintage gear. I often wonder if I'd use the Model D more often if it was an authentic Moog as it's most certain to be a nicer user experience with keys, expansive layout, all that vibe, knobs, wood, etc. but I think it sounds amazing (and equal in quality to the other synths I mentioned, sonically - just more Moog-like). An added benefit: the Boog has helped me to get a bit more comfortable programming with the 3-oscillator section from Diva, among others.


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## givemenoughrope (Jan 29, 2020)

I'm not sure why a lot of these updated clones dont have CC control, software editors/vst ala DSI, etc. If they did I'd probably be helpless against them and buy them up. Obv some of them can't.


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## redlester (Jan 30, 2020)




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## mickeyl (Jan 30, 2020)

Behringer is carrying out a quite clever strategy. Some devices are pretty accurate clones, some are clones++ (devices that fix shortcomings of the originals and carefully go beyond), and some are pretty much just good inventions.

Although I don't own a Behringer device yet (and actually after working ITB for more than 10 years, I didn't want to, but I will anyways), I'm pretty confident that I can't resist a Behringer 2600 this summer.

The net effect is that they bring fresh blood into the scene, allowing more people to own synths and make music. From a consumer standpoint, I think they're doing great.


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## chimuelo (Jan 30, 2020)

Comparisons on MP3’s never reveals the true presence of old vintage beasts.
That aside only clones I’ve heard that nail the emulations are Kong’s ARP2600 and Behringer CAT, but I haven’t played the CAT yet.
But these clones aren’t much more expensive than soft synths so buying 5 or 6 of these and using your Mac or PC for streaming audio is great.

I’m seeing lots of rigs with hardware synths and hardware effects and VEPro running max poly.


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## José Herring (Jan 30, 2020)

Love the CAT. I'm going to be getting my first clone. Trying to decide between the k2, pro-one and cat. Any suggestions to get my feat wet? Which ones do you guys love?


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## José Herring (Jan 30, 2020)

I guess Cat isn't available yet. Makes my choice easier. K2 or Pro-One?


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## Wes Antczak (Jan 30, 2020)

mike_solar said:


> Those new eurorack modules look great as well ...and the upcoming 2600. I currently have a Prophet 6, Prophet 12, Juno 60 and some other vintage gear. I often wonder if I'd use the Model D more often if it was an authentic Moog as it's most certain to be a nicer user experience with keys, expansive layout, all that vibe, knobs, wood, etc. but I think it sounds amazing (and equal in quality to the other synths I mentioned, sonically - just more Moog-like). An added benefit: the Boog has helped me to get a bit more comfortable programming with the 3-oscillator section from Diva, among others.



In terms of the Moog... or rather Boog, the Poly D looks really nice.


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## C.R. Rivera (Jan 30, 2020)

Wes Antczak said:


> In terms of the Moog... or rather Boog, the Poly D looks really nice.


I wonder if Behringer will clone "Boog Powell"? Why if patent/trademark law allows it, is Behringer getting grief in some quarters? We know that it is not perfect replicas, or, the original products in most cases. Just curious.


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## chimuelo (Jan 30, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I guess Cat isn't available yet. Makes my choice easier. K2 or Pro-One?



Is the Pro One monophonic? If it isn’t I’d shop for a Polyphonic, not Paraphonic either, just a good buzzy Analog Polyphonic. Digital synths in the box can do so many better things than try to emulate discrete audio synths.

Just my opinion, but I like samples and digital soft Synths, an Analog Polyphonic, and a big fat mono synth.

I got to use a CAT and Voyetra once and the power and presence was incredible. I had a CS80, OBX, MiniMoog and the Moog Lab Series amp stack and thought they were fat, CS80 being the thinnest. But the Voyetra and CAT were so Fat I dare not put them into the Leslie cabinets.

Nothing ever came close to those until I played a Moog One.
But I’m over that blow your face off era, but would definitely want a CAT.
The SE-02 is really a full sounding mono too, but the CAT is going to be tough to beat on Bass and Lead.

MultiWaveform Oscillators are really as big as you can get with Bass or Lead synths.


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## mike_solar (Jan 30, 2020)

chimuelo said:


> Is the Pro One monophonic? If it isn’t I’d shop for a Polyphonic, not Paraphonic either, just a good buzzy Analog Polyphonic. Digital synths in the box can do so many better things than try to emulate discrete audio synths.
> 
> Just my opinion, but I like samples and digital soft Synths, an Analog Polyphonic, and a big fat mono synth.
> 
> ...



That's interesting to note as I was recently playing around with some pads on an Oberheim Matrix 6R. For comparison sake I managed to program a patch in Diva with the goal of emulating an OB-8 pad - the Diva patch had less artifacts but sounded much fatter, in my opinion.

I still think the biggest mono sound in my current setup is perhaps the Behringer Model D. Love the low end of the Juno 60 though - it's completely different so I have a couple of bases covered hardware-wise.

I look forward to playing around with more of the Behringer emulations at some point. Amazing stuff they are doing these days. Makes me not want to spend so much on synths in the future.


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## José Herring (Jan 30, 2020)

chimuelo said:


> Is the Pro One monophonic? If it isn’t I’d shop for a Polyphonic, not Paraphonic either, just a good buzzy Analog Polyphonic. Digital synths in the box can do so many better things than try to emulate discrete audio synths.
> 
> Just my opinion, but I like samples and digital soft Synths, an Analog Polyphonic, and a big fat mono synth.
> 
> ...


The Pro One is monophonic but like the K2 an other Behringer synths you can chain them up to 16 and get a polysynth going. Doubt I'll ever do that though so it will be monosynth all the way. I may get the Deepmind 12 to get an analog poly going but since my favorite poly synth is the digital Roland JD 800, I pretty much handle all my poly needs with softsynths since the JD800 was basically a softsynth in hardware box.

But, the raw and slap happy filters of the analog monosynths of the 70's and 80's is what I like. I've been for 3 years trying to figure out how I'm going to get some vintage stuff and during that time the clone army has been born. I'm cautiously optimistic.


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## EvilDragon (Jan 31, 2020)

givemenoughrope said:


> I'm not sure why a lot of these updated clones dont have CC control, software editors/vst ala DSI, etc. If they did I'd probably be helpless against them and buy them up. Obv some of them can't.



Because doing that would change the circuit, since you would have to scan every potentiometer digitally, use ADCs, which doese quantize the parameter range, etc. etc., ultimately it can affect sound, even if minutely. It's also additional R&D and then your Model D wouldn't cost $300.


I have a Neutron, it is absolutely great, *high quality build* (knobs don't wiggle, jacks are solid, everything oozes confidence), and loads of fun. Jose, I would suggest you to go with Pro One or Neutron if you want something slightly different. They didn't quite nail the MS-20 resonance behavior on K2. It's like 90% there, maybe.

I would also suggest to get a Poly-D once available. It's like Minimoog but this one can really tear up a wall because of the extra oscillator. It's a very interesting cross between Minimoog and Korg Mono/Poly.


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## José Herring (Jan 31, 2020)

Yes, I'm looking into the Neurton as well. It has a slew out which would basically complete my modular setup. I've run out of juice on my modular so my extra envelope for my filter is sitting there all lonely because there isn't enough power in my current setup to run the one more module. But with the Neutron I will get the slew that I need plus some addition LFO's that will free up my current LFO in my eurorack to use as the second envelope ( it's one of the mutable instruments mutli function modules). 

So, hmmm... I will definitely get both but which to get first. The great thing about this price point is you can't really make any mistakes.

I like the Poly D and will probably get it some year but I'd like to get the CAT and I'm looking forward to the other analog Poly synths they have come out since the Poly D isn't really polyphonic.


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## DerGeist (Jan 31, 2020)

mike_solar said:


> I've got a $5K+ eurorack system and the model-D is sitting right in the middle - and it's one of my go to's (probably since it's so easy having a full tweakable synth in the middle of all these modules). Sounds pretty incredible to me though. I've grown quite attached. If any of these fill a void in your setup and you like how they sound, you really can't go wrong.


I'm exactly the same. Big modular and the Model D more than holds its own.


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## whinecellar (Jan 31, 2020)

I spent some time A/B’ing the “Boog” model D against Moog’s Subsequent 37 - a piece I’ve wanted for a while. I was shocked to find the Boog was bigger, fatter and had a massive low end. 2 very different products obviously, but in terms of getting that notorious Moog flavor, it was a no brainer - let alone for a fraction of the price.


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## EvilDragon (Jan 31, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I like the Poly D and will probably get it some year but I'd like to get the CAT



Who knows when Cat will be released. Behringer likes to tease but getting things to market can take up to a year or more. They announced they were working on UB-Xa in Jan 2018 on GS, still nothing.


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## José Herring (Jan 31, 2020)

Yeah, I had written the boog off in favor of the Pro one but now I think I'll get all three starring with the Boog, then Neutron then Pro One. 

Amazing that I can get 3 synths and still be around the $1000 mark. Impressive.


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## EvilDragon (Jan 31, 2020)

I would suggest you to just take two of those for most variety (Model D and Neutron). Reason - both Neutron and Pro One have the same oscillators (based on CEM 3340), so you're not getting an awful lot of variety there. A different filter, yeah, but modulation-wise Neutron is a loooot better and more flexible. Cat SRM-II which they're cloning is also 3340 based, but it has SSM filter which is super-sweet. Shame they aren't cloning the first revision of Cat, which had discrete oscillators - it sounds ridiculously gnarly and great. Best sounding revision out of three. Well ok, SSM2040 in second revision (Cat SRM) is one helluva filter. Better than 2044 that is in SRM-II.


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## Wally Garten (Jan 31, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Because doing that would change the circuit, since you would have to scan every potentiometer digitally, use ADCs, which doese quantize the parameter range, etc. etc., ultimately it can affect sound, even if minutely. It's also additional R&D and then your Model D wouldn't cost $300.



This is all completely fair -- but it's also part of the reason I sold my Boog. Sounded great and fun to play, but there must be half a dozen really good software emulations of the Model D that also give you the flexibility of digital control/automation. All I ever did with the Boog was fool around, but when I wanted to get precise and do some recording, it was just easier to use software.

I'm not trying to start a hardware/software debate here -- I have a number of hardware synths that I consider irreplaceable because of their idiosyncratic architecture/workflow. The Model D just happens to be one that's particularly well-represented in software, so it's funny that that's the one Behringer chose to make their lead-off project. (On the other hand, it's cheap, and quite popular!)


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## EvilDragon (Jan 31, 2020)

Hardware Minimoog won't have issues with aliasing when you try pushing it too far (even though the likes of Monark and The Legend have minimized it - it's not totally perfect). But yes, I do agree with modern-day commodities like patch memory and multiple instances.


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## Greg (Jan 31, 2020)

No. I prefer to not line the pockets of a company that tried to sue my favorite synth maker of all time, Dave Smith. As well as 20 other forum users on gearslutz wrapped up in the case.


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## Vin (Jan 31, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> I have a Neutron, it is absolutely great, *high quality build* (knobs don't wiggle, jacks are solid, everything oozes confidence), and loads of fun. Jose, I would suggest you to go with Pro One or Neutron if you want something slightly different. They didn't quite nail the MS-20 resonance behavior on K2. It's like 90% there, maybe.



I agree with the above - K2 is the only clone that isn't spot on in my opinion. Their original design, Neutron is probably my favorite (mono)synth at the moment. It's a lot of fun and its low end is absolutely gargantuan. Works great with other modular too. This comment by sonicstate's Nick Batt says a lot.


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## haydn12 (Jan 31, 2020)

I have the Neutron which blows away the 2 Moog synths I had years ago in flexibility. I have quite a few soft synths but find being able to twist physical knobs makes sound design much easier and quicker. I find myself just playing with this little synth for long periods of time. I would definitely like to get the boog and some of the other modules coming out.

Jim


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## mickeyl (Feb 1, 2020)

I've been working ITB for more than a decade now. Being an admirer of the early Depeche Mode (1981-1985), I really want the Behringer 2600 to add something more playful to my sonic arsenal. While being there, I might also pick up the Neutron and some additional Eurorack modules. I just hope I'm not getting addicted to Eurorack when doing that…


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## EvilDragon (Feb 1, 2020)

mickeyl said:


> I just hope I'm not getting addicted to Eurorack when doing that…



They don't call it Eurocrack for no reason


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## lastmessiah (Feb 1, 2020)

I just wish Behringer's aesthetics weren't so naff. The DeepMind is pretty ugly. If I'm going to pay for something that is practically a novelty item, such as a hardware synth, I want it to look great.


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## gsilbers (Feb 1, 2020)

lastmessiah said:


> I just wish Behringer's aesthetics weren't so naff. The DeepMind is pretty ugly. If I'm going to pay for something that is practically a novelty item, such as a hardware synth, I want it to look great.



its a hit or miss.. i was ok with the desktop deepmind. thought it was cool. and price was very good for what it is. the neutron was odd. the boog and others seems very just like the orignal. the logo.. and name. i mean.. warm audio on the pro audio side got it a little better. maybe if behringer dropped the name and went with only klark tecknik or tc electronic or midas or helicon then maybe. its just the brand name that was decades worth of bad cheapness which is very hard to shrugg off no matter how real those clones sound.


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## chimuelo (Feb 2, 2020)

But Behringer brought great products like BCF/BCR2000 while their other stuff was for budget minded live performers.
We used a pair of modded ADA8000’s @ Black Lion Audio for drums, bass, guitar and vocals then dumped the 2,000 bucks saved into a better console.

Also Ulli B. saved most of these companies from going under. Harman did the same with companies losing money in the 90s during ADAT and the Digital revolution.

We use an M32 from Midas now that would have cost 20,000k not long ago.
I know these clone wars are killing sales of other synths, but it allows more people to buy gear that would be 1,000s more if it weren’t for Ulli B.

To stay afloat these days you better offer radical new ideas like Korg WaveState. Otherwise the clones might eat you up.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 2, 2020)

Wavestate is not a new radical idea. It's an old idea expanded in all possible ways.


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## Solarsentinel (Feb 2, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Wavestate is not a new radical idea. It's an old idea expanded in all possible ways.


Wavestate could be really great if only we can load your own samples into it.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 2, 2020)

It's already great with all the samples it already has.


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## José Herring (Feb 2, 2020)

Korg Wavestate sounded amazing. I was a big fan of the Wavestation. Just got dated with the fx. Wavestate is a whole new beast.


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## José Herring (Feb 2, 2020)

I went ahead and ordered Neutron. I've already looked into a company that makes overlays for it. I won't be able to look at that ugly face and that Behringer logo for long.

I'm going to try to find a company that just makes faceplates though. Not sure if replacing the entire front panel is possible but the overlays seem to look nice.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 3, 2020)

I have heinakroon's Podular overlay, it's awesome.


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## Wes Antczak (Feb 3, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> I have heinakroon's Podular overlay, it's awesome.



Looks great! It would be cool to have something similar for the Moog Mother. It looks like he is also working on overlays for the Deepmind 12.


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## José Herring (Feb 3, 2020)

Greg said:


> No. I prefer to not line the pockets of a company that tried to sue my favorite synth maker of all time, Dave Smith. As well as 20 other forum users on gearslutz wrapped up in the case.


This is of concern to me. I'm glad you mentioned it. There are sample manufactures that I refuse to buy from soley on the basis of how they've treated other companies and even customers. 

I don't know if on the hardware synth arena if I'm as concerned, but I did start looking into their China facility and their working conditions. Two things to note. Firstly the employees do seem well enough treated but bored stiff. Okay, not a big deal as it is factory work after all. The facility seemed clean though and the people didn't seem unhappy to be there.

What I did notice is that majority of the upper management tended to be of European decent while the workers are all Chinese. Makes sense of course as Uli is German and he opened up a factory in China. But, what I would like to see since the factory is in China is more actual Chinese people rising up the ranks and enjoying better higher paying jobs.

For some reason these things are important to me. So I followed Uli on Twitter to get into communication with him. I think it is up to us the consumer to demand that Behringer do the right things. Let's face it like it or not this chap has managed to build the largest music empire since Yamaha. I don't doubt for a minute that like Yamaha he will expand into other electronics and who knows were that will lead (electic cars, motorcycles, home electronics, ect...) He's laid the foundation for an empire. He has forced the hand of many hardware synth companies to follow suit.


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## C.R. Rivera (Feb 3, 2020)

josejherring wrote: "What I did notice is that majority of the upper management tended to be of European decent while the workers are all Chinese. Makes sense of course as Uli is German and he opened up a factory in China. But, what I would like to see since the factory is in China is more actual Chinese people rising up the ranks and enjoying better higher paying jobs."

I am curious as to how today Apple manages this issue, as Americans, supposedly, concerned about Chinese employee rights and sure love their Chinese made-iPhones, etc. etc. Were their any "suicide nets" reported at the Behringer factory as well, since you mentioned bored workers.


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## José Herring (Feb 3, 2020)

C.R. Rivera said:


> josejherring wrote: "What I did notice is that majority of the upper management tended to be of European decent while the workers are all Chinese. Makes sense of course as Uli is German and he opened up a factory in China. But, what I would like to see since the factory is in China is more actual Chinese people rising up the ranks and enjoying better higher paying jobs."
> 
> I am curious as to how today Apple manages this issue, as Americans, supposedly, concerned about Chinese employee rights and sure love their Chinese made-iPhones, etc. etc. Were their any "suicide nets" reported at the Behringer factory as well, since you mentioned bored workers.



It is hard for me to fully understand the intent of your post. So, I'll explain myself further.

I own no Apple products. Can't bring myself to it. Do love the products, but Apple just isn't my thing. Apple imo became the nightmare 1984 scenario that they depicted PC being in the their famous 1984 commercial. 

And, you don't know me at all. I have a concern for all people. Not just American people. I hate the idea that the world has divided itself up along ethnic, racial lines and hate even more that there is even the idea of countries. I'm no one worlder as that's even worse but the idea that I'm a citizen of planet earth and can't even board a fucking plane without proper government id or travel to a different country without the proper paperwork is horribly terrible in my eyes. Just think if our ancestors needed paper work to cross the Atlantic or if the nomadic tribes of Asia needed paperwork to leave China and become the natives of Northern, Central and Southern America. The planet is ours and all people on it are my people.

So yes, I care about the people in China. I hope that they are treated well by Westerners who's only claim to superiority is that they were lucky enough to be born into a better economic system. So as Uli gains more and more economic power then he has a greater responsibility to use that power ethically to the benefit of all involved.

Same with Apple.


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## C.R. Rivera (Feb 3, 2020)

josejherring said:


> It is hard for me to fully understand the intent of your post. So, I'll explain myself further.
> 
> I own no Apple products. Can't bring myself to it. Do love the products, but Apple just isn't my thing. Apple imo became the nightmare 1984 scenario that they depicted PC being in the their famous 1984 commercial.
> 
> ...



Actually, I was not talking ABOUT you, or DOWN to you, but rather, about YOUR observations, since you seem to have some experience with the China plants, either in person or via video, as you imply. I am in America, am an American, so my experience is American, not Chinese/Asian, not European, not African. However, in the US we have a cadre who demand/argue for such rights in the Chinese plants, but still purchase/admire Chinese-made products, due to either price point or design influence. So does Behringer treat them better than Apple? Worse than Apple? And if the latter, that would be more informative for the consumer.


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## José Herring (Feb 3, 2020)

C.R. Rivera said:


> Actually, I was not talking ABOUT you, or DOWN to you, but rather, about YOUR observations, since you seem to have some experience with the China plants, either in person or via video, as you imply. I am in America, am an American, so my experience is American, not Chinese/Asian, not European, not African. However, in the US we have a cadre who demand/argue for such rights in the Chinese plants, but still purchase/admire Chinese-made products, due to either price point or design influence. So does Behringer treat them better than Apple? Worse than Apple? And if the latter, that would be more informative for the consumer.


Just looked at a hundred pictures and their promo video. I am concerned. I don't want to support a company that's just going to exploit the people that do the real work. But, from what I've read and seen it looks like he's trying to do the right things. 

I'm actually going to invite him into this thread to see if we can get some involvement from him.


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## José Herring (Feb 4, 2020)

I'm actually excited with my Neutron purchase I get to finally finish my basic Eurorack synth setup and now I can start investing in the weird modules like Morphegene.


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## jeremiahpena (Feb 4, 2020)

I got a Neutron a few months ago as a future gateway to eurorack and it's great. I love how aggressive it feels, like it's a monster ready to devour you if you push it just slightly too far. And the Assign output can be set to aftertouch and it becomes very expressive when played with my Linnstrument.


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## gsilbers (Feb 4, 2020)

:emoji_musical_keyboard:


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## VinRice (Feb 4, 2020)

Few points:
1: The Apple factory = suicide story was exposed as bullshit from a faux journalist with an axe to grind. The suicide rate at the factory was/is the same as China as a whole - just happens to be a massive factory (800,000 employees?) - and of course isn't owned by Apple but Foxconn - and also makes everything for Dell and a dozen other computer companies. Apple's investment is in the thousands of specialised Japanese CNC robots that make MacBook and iPhone cases.
2: The welfare of Chinese workers should really be the responsibility of the Chinese state. Smacks a little of colonialism to suggest that we need to tell them how it should be done. 
3: The average workers pay in China has risen by 2600% in the past 20 years, The percentage of Chinese in poverty according to UN criteria is now less then in any European country, excluding Scandinavia and of course way below that of the US.
4: Behringer gear was always well made but used to sound rubbish and I hated it. Now most of it sounds really rather excellent and I like it.


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## José Herring (Feb 7, 2020)

Oh man! Neutron arrived today. Got it going. Man that beast is WILD AND CRAZY!!! I'm going to look forward to creating all sorts of mayhem with this thing. Thanks for the heads up on this!

I think now I'll hold off on the pro one and get the CAT when it comes out. All for the price of a couple of software upgrades. Exiting times!


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## EvilDragon (Feb 7, 2020)

Toldya


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## gsilbers (Oct 21, 2021)

once again.

behrigner ripped off another moog design. the dfam clone.


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## vitocorleone123 (May 14, 2022)

The latest UX-Xa video sound pretty bad. Is it the synth, the video, or the combo from Anderton's (who now have a financial arrangement with Music Tribe)? I would 10000% choose Synapse Audio Obsession over this IF the video is true to the sound.... which we don't know.


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## José Herring (May 14, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> The latest UX-Xa video sound pretty bad. Is it the synth, the video, or the combo from Anderton's (who now have a financial arrangement with Music Tribe)? I would 10000% choose Synapse Audio Obsession over this IF the video is true to the sound.... which we don't know.


I've since soured on Behringer due to behavior of the company that I can't get around. I now don't really care what they do and I'm looking to get rid of my Behringer Neutron if anybody wants it.


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## timbit2006 (May 14, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I've since soured on Behringer due to behavior of the company that I can't get around. I now don't really care what they do and I'm looking to get rid of my Behringer Neutron if anybody wants it.


what did they do since 2021?


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## liquidlino (May 14, 2022)

So


José Herring said:


> I've since soured on Behringer due to behavior of the company that I can't get around. I now don't really care what they do and I'm looking to get rid of my Behringer Neutron if anybody wants it.


Sold mine recently, not for ethical reasons, nor quality. I just didn't get on with no digital control plane. Was too tedious patching and unpatching etc. Sticking with falcon and pigments and voltage modular, saving up for a big boy digitally controlled synth down the track.


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## tressie5 (May 14, 2022)

Yes, I'd like to know, too, since I couldn't bring myself to support a company that mistreats their workers.


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## José Herring (May 14, 2022)

timbit2006 said:


> what did they do since 2021?





tressie5 said:


> Yes, I'd like to know, too, since I couldn't bring myself to support a company that mistreats their workers.


The whole Peter Kirn debacle. I just couldn't get it out of my head. I'm really sensitive to things like that and it tainted the gear for me. 
This guy sums it up.


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## José Herring (May 15, 2022)

3DC said:


> Can somebody please explain to me what Behringer did or does to deserve all this negative sentiments and comments?
> 
> I hope there is something more than cloning and price "problem". Its like picking up on HYUNDAI for copying MB S Class which made a copy of RR Phantom and both selling it for lower price. Exploitation? Nothing exclusive to Behringer company especially in communist China.
> 
> ...


Definitely missing the more problematic stuff. From outright legal bullying to blatant ethnic attack on Peter Kirn. Just not my kind of people and I thought I could turn a blind eye when I first heard of it, kind of the "nothing to do with me" but the Peter Kirn incident just sent me over the edge.

If you're in LA we can meet somewhere if you want a free hardware semi modular. The synth is actually pretty good. I enjoyed it but everytime I turned it on I just started to feel bad. Can't have gear that makes you feel bad.


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## vitocorleone123 (May 15, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Definitely missing the more problematic stuff. From outright legal bullying to blatant ethnic attack on Peter Kirn. Just not my kind of people and I thought I could turn a blind eye when I first heard of it, kind of the "nothing to do with me" but the Peter Kirn incident just sent me over the edge.
> 
> If you're in LA we can meet somewhere if you want a free hardware semi modular. The synth is actually pretty good. I enjoyed it but everytime I turned it on I just started to feel bad. Can't have gear that makes you feel bad.


Yes. It's not the gear, it's the company and CEO. I wish there was either another company churning out the decent gear that B does at similar prices, or that he'd retire and let someone less disgusting run the company. If B had class, this wouldn't really have happened to the extent it has, but, then, if he had class he'd probably be leading a company known more for making cool new things instead of clones.

And yes, cloning is part of the issue. Car makers don't clone - they copy and take inspiration, which is normal and expected. Cloning products and trying to name them the same, as if they're part of the same heritage and family and art and thereby not only leveraging someone else's hard work on creating the synth or gear, but also on their hard work to establish brand (or just trying to leverage out the brand so it can be used), or blatantly cloning products currently in production, isn't necessarily illegal, but that just adds to the disgust. B isn't the only company doing this in the world, but it's still distasteful. B, the person, just elevated it to outright disgust when you put all the pieces together.

It's important that people who feel disgust at B not let that color their view or interactions of people who purchase B products (unless they bought said products because they're fans of B the person). Not everyone knows, clearly, and not everyone can literally afford to care.

Anyway, I won't comment further on this aspect and will stick to the hardware.


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## rgames (May 15, 2022)

There's nothing inherently wrong with "cloning" as long as the originator of the idea is given time to extract value from his idea. Doing so provides significant value to society.

Take pharmaceuticals, for example: drug companies innovate to improve people's health and are given a monopoly on their products for some period of time. After that, they lose that monopoly and the generic manufacturers are allowed to "clone" the drugs, thereby adding competition, economies of scale and significantly reducing costs. That's a huge benefit to society. The trick is finding the balance between incentivizing innovation and reducing costs for consumers: if you provide no incentive to innovate, you'll get no innovation and there will be fewer products improving people's lives (this is one problem with socialism). If you go full unregulated market then you'll also have less impact on people's lives because the costs will remain out of reach for broader society (this is one of the problems with unregulated markets). The most benefit to society falls somewhere in between but, generally, closer to the unregulated market approach. So cloning is a good thing, as long as there is some incentive to create the thing that is eventually cloned.

Commercial aircraft are another good example. They're all pretty much clones. But that's the design that provides the best balance of cost and value, and by allowing it to proliferate across different aircraft manufacturers you provide value to society by reducing air travel costs.

Cell phones are another good example. The list goes on.

The synth clone market is more akin to aircraft than pharmaceuticals: the designs are extremely mature and haven't really changed much in recent years. If Sequential and Oberheim and whoever were producing really new and innovative products I don't think anyone would care about the synth clone market. But they're not. Witness the "new" Oberheim. Those designs are mature, so clone away!

rgames


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## vitocorleone123 (May 15, 2022)

rgames said:


> There's nothing inherently wrong with "cloning" as long as the originator of the idea is given time to extract value from his idea. Doing so provides significant value to society.
> 
> Take pharmaceuticals, for example: drug companies innovate to improve people's health and are given a monopoly on their products for some period of time. After that, they lose that monopoly and the generic manufacturers are allowed to "clone" the drugs, thereby adding competition, economies of scale and significantly reducing costs. That's a huge benefit to society. The trick is finding the balance between incentivizing innovation and reducing costs for consumers: if you provide no incentive to innovate, you'll get no innovation and there will be fewer products improving people's lives (this is one problem with socialism). If you go full unregulated market then you'll also have less impact on people's lives because the costs will remain out of reach for broader society (this is one of the problems with unregulated markets). The most benefit to society falls somewhere in between but, generally, closer to the unregulated market approach. So cloning is a good thing, as long as there is some incentive to create the thing that is eventually cloned.
> 
> ...


Again, it's how B does it as opposed to what they're doing. For me, anyway.

Also, Sequential does do innovative things (and Oberheim did and still may). They had to re-issue some synths in large part because of the clone market. At least on the part of Dave Smith, he very much made it clear over a long time he didn't intend or want to reissue the Prophet 5. B made it very, very clear how much they care about anything other than profit at all costs, and they'd gladly take all that hard work of others and put it out there as their own. I'm being repetitive, but, again, it's how B does it as opposed to what they're doing.


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## method1 (May 15, 2022)

You don't see aircraft manufacturers cloning a Boeing 747 and calling it a Boring 746 with the same colour scheme etc, that's part of the issue with Boringer.


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## rsg22 (May 15, 2022)

method1 said:


> You don't see aircraft manufacturers cloning a Boeing 747 and calling it a Boring 746 with the same colour scheme etc, that's part of the issue with Boringer.


I'm not defending Behringer (and don't own any of their gear) but I don't think this example holds up. The Boeing 747 is still being manufactured today (to the end of this year I believe), where Behringer is cloning machines that haven't been manufactured for 40-50 years in most cases. As far as I know what they're doing is legal.

Before reading up on their business practices I thought it was pretty cool they were giving musicians the opportunity to buy clones of historical synths, but that was before...

As far as the cloning issue - do we get upset when softsynth developers clone the same synths Behringer is cloning in hardware? Is there a difference (honest question)?


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## method1 (May 15, 2022)

I'll wait for Boeing to stop producing the 747 and then re-post next year.

As for the software synth thing, software developers still have to model, code & do the work themselves.
It would be more like developing a skin for Diva and then selling it as a whole new synth.
Boringer is just jacking an existing schematic & aesthetic. Legal doesn't mean ethical.


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## rsg22 (May 15, 2022)

method1 said:


> As for the software synth thing, software developers still have to model, code & do the work themselves.
> It would be more like developing a skin for Diva and then selling it as a whole new synth.
> Boringer is just jacking an existing schematic & aesthetic.


Behringer's looking at a schematic VS software developers physical modeling are just two different ways of reverse engineering the original right? As far as I know most of the original components from the Moog Model D aren't available today, so doesn't Behringer have to do the work of developing new components, taking on the cost of R&D, manufacturing, etc.? I'm out of my depth here and maybe I'm wrong...



method1 said:


> Legal doesn't mean ethical.


Of course - 100% agreed. And I don't disagree with the point you were trying to make - I don't own Behringer gear for a reason.

My original reply was only questioning the comparison of something illegal to something that is legal but arguably unethical.


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## method1 (May 15, 2022)

Back to my original point with the Boeing / Boring thing here - Boringer called it "Model D" - that's not something you see in many other industries, it's a direct attempt to hijack the legacy of the cloned object, as Mr Corleone pointed out earlier, regardless of whether they had to source some new components, this is trivial for a company of their size not to mention that a lot of that legwork had already been done by synth fans & technicians over the years. Not only have they pilfered original designs, but also the workarounds & substitutions developed in enthusiast forums. In the case of something like the OBXA, every important component is still available or has been reissued.


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## rgames (May 15, 2022)

method1 said:


> Not only have they pilfered original designs


Allowing people to copy/use someone else's designs is not unethical (see the pharmaceutical example above). It's common practice, perfectly legal and accepted as perfectly fine by everyone who deals with IP law. It's central to encouraging innovation while also benefiting consumers.

Using someone else's design is an essential element of engineering. Sometimes you copy it exactly and sell it exactly like it was because you found a new/cheaper/faster way to manufacture it. Sometimes some other innovation makes the older design more useful and you begin to re-make it, exactly as originally designed, as a result. There's nothing wrong with that - in fact, quite the contrary: this process provides tremendous value to society.

It's the same with music: you don't hold your copyright forever. You keep it for a while, make money off of it, then it's fair game for people to do with as they wish.

Thank goodness the Happy Birthday copyright finally expired. It was a pain sending off those royalty payments every year on my kids' birthdays.

rgames


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## method1 (May 15, 2022)

The generic of Viagra is not called Viagra. It does not come in the same packaging using a look-alike Pfizer logo.

Anyway it seems we're not at all on the same page, I'm talking about Oily Boringer's cynical business practices (oh we're helping the poor downtrodden musician) to justify doing whatever he wants which so far has included racial slurs, threatening DSI / Sequential with legal action, and promising but not delivering a charitable giveaway until he was called out by a prominent YouTuber.

This is obviously not the same thing as generic drugs, unless maybe the next Boringer release is going to be the UB-XANAX, then he'll be facing the kind of legal challenges a Tom Oberheim couldn't really muster.


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## Nico5 (May 15, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> And yes, cloning is part of the issue


and it seems rather widely done


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## José Herring (May 15, 2022)

I'm not concerned about the debate of cloning. I am concerned about outright bullying and ethnic slurs hurled at somebody that you happen to disagree with. We all have our lines in the sand and I can't and won't support a company that does that. Also, the picture of all their smug faces in their Chinese plant made me wish that the PLA would just run them out of the country.


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## method1 (May 15, 2022)

Boringer doesn't only clone out of production vintage synths, they're also knocking off currently in production ones like the DFAM, Mother32 & even the Arturia keystep


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## Nico5 (May 15, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I'm not concerned about the debate of cloning.


the thread title has me a little confused then ...



José Herring said:


> I am concerned about outright bullying ...


wholeheartedly agreed!



José Herring said:


> ... I can't and won't support a company that does that


Is it fair to assume you'll also refuse to drive a Tesla then? 

I'm not trying to belittle your sentiments, because I feel rather similar to you.

But I am somewhat skeptical of most purity arguments, because:

If I would be truly hard core consistent in refusing to purchase any products or services from very large conglomerate companies whose leaders (or some parts of the enterprise) do some reprehensible stuff, it might become rather difficult to live a pretty average (and somewhat affordable) life. I strongly suspect, that (almost?) everyone on this forum is buying and using some stuff made by child labor and/or otherwise pretty reprehensible working conditions. The fact that we're here means we're using some sort of computing device over the Internet, most of which are made with generous helpings of misbehavior by some parts of the supply chain. Whether it be a rare earth mining operation, an assembly line sweatshop and/or child labour.

So in reality, I find my enthusiasm to purchase from some companies reduced when they're associated with negative behavior), but with large conglomerates I find it difficult / impossible to be fully pure with my purchases. And I've also been embarrassed more than once in my life to have worked for a company or a boss with at least some questionable behavior. 

However, I'm in favor of calling out extreme misbehavior and for expressing one's sentiments with the help of one's wallet. -- It's just never fully pure.


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## José Herring (May 15, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> the thread title has me a little confused then ...


It's taken a few turns over the years. First, I was eager to take part in the clone wars. Then somehow it turned into a debate over cloning hardware which I could care or less about. Then, it resurfaced a few days ago and I wanted to express that I'm no longer interested in Behringer products no matter how good they are for the reason I stated. 


Nico5 said:


> wholeheartedly agreed!
> 
> 
> Is it fair to assume you'll also refuse to drive a Tesla then?


Trump lovin' Musk can kiss my ass. Drive a Tesla sure....purchase one....Nah.... (being sarcastic here. I know it came across as pretty harsh though)


Nico5 said:


> I'm not trying to belittle your sentiments, because I feel rather similar to you.
> 
> But I am somewhat skeptical of most purity arguments, because:
> 
> ...


I don't consider Der Musikstamm in China a faceless conglomerate. I consider Behringer that kid who had a great ideal, flooded the market for years with crap, made a ton of money manage to make some synths that I actually think are great... but underneath it all, he's a bit of a jackass. Big difference.


Nico5 said:


> However, I'm in favor of calling out extreme misbehavior and for expressing one's sentiments with the help of one's wallet. -- It's just never fully pure.


Yep! Plus in the long run I am always looking for excuses not to buy. 

The Peter Kirn incident is just the most visible one. If you look hard you'll find a pattern of bullying people that he disagrees with or outright just attacks with no provocation including people on forums. He has money and using it to crush and belittle people and to coerce their silence is just horrible. 


Truth is that if he truly had something that nobody else had that I really needed to improve my music, I'd swallow my sanctimonious attitude. But, he doesn't and I don't see that changing in the future.


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## tressie5 (May 15, 2022)

I believe in what @Nico5 said - in today's day and age, you can't always separate yourself from the ubiquitous reaches of conglomerates. I'm a vegan so obviously that means no meat, eggs or cheese on my plate. In my case, it also means no leather or animal byproducts and only cruelty-free items in my day to day uses. A few months hence, I thought I was successful in ridding myself of all things exploited, however, a few tidbits remain - my headphones and probably my bicycle seat. It sucks being poor, but I guess I'm in the market for those two necessities. I'm sure leather-free alternatives exist.


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## method1 (May 16, 2022)

Ah the old "those people would never have bought things anyway" pro-piracy argument.

Hey Roland & Korg did something bad, therefore Boringer is excused, another good argument!

Lucky for us poor downtrodden musicians that super sleuth Oily Boringer is on the case, exposing the evil megacorps!


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## sumskilz (May 16, 2022)

In pro audio, clones are quite common. Neve still makes a version of their iconic 1073, yet many clones exist with names that make this clear.

Some examples:

BAE 1073
IGS Audio NE573
Warm Audio WA73
Golden Age Project Pre-573 Premier
AML ez1073

All of which evoke the aesthetics of the Neve 1073 as well, some being visually very close.


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## method1 (May 16, 2022)

3DC said:


> Be aware that most companies have partner companies selling cheaper version of the original products like Fender and Squire or Medeli for Kurzweil and Yamaha. Part of Behringer business is licenced production of original products. It might look illegal but its really not.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with premium brands and their high priced products and services if they follow business rules or laws. Using the "brand" influence to secure "premium price" and literally steal money from me and you is.
> 
> ...


I'm pointing fingers, guess I'm a fox.

In case it's not clear to people, Oily's personal behaviour alongside 99% of the Boringer catalogue being based on clones is what makes the brand so objectionable to many, if you think that the existence of a BAE 1073 excuses all of that, happy shopping!


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## antret (May 16, 2022)

Hi! Honestly haven’t read every post past the 1st page or so….

I have the Deep Mind 12. I bought it new, on sale for like $499 or something crazy. I absolutely love that thing. It’s very heavy and sturdy, but corners had to be cut… bad screen (as in not pretty) , cheap feeling and wobbly knobs/faders, etc. 

Everyone that passes thru my house that plays on it absolutely loves it (young and old alike). I really do think having all those FX onboard really moves it up a few notches…. The architecture is pretty simple, so it’s great to have the FX handy to spice things up.

There are a lot of presets and I like a lot of them. You can learn some great programming tricks from them. If I wanted to expand my hardware synth collection I would grab a few more B synths. Really, really like that semi-modular one.


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## Gerbil (May 16, 2022)

I've worked with a few musicians I haven't cared for much as people, but they know how to light up a stage. Boss Behringer seems like a bit of a plonker but I'm not going to groan when I've got a K2 that's better built than a Korg MS20 mini and an Odyssey that's better kitted out (and built) than its Korg equivalent.

I've built up a little collection of their hardware this past year, including the CAT and Model D, and they are all excellent. If they were cheap like those naff mixers they used to make 15-odd years ago then I wouldn't bother.

At some point soon(ish), the company will release a Model 15 (based I'm guessing on the Moog Modular), an Oberhein two-voice SEM, a PPG, a Prophet, some tiny little synths like volcas but with single voices from a VS and a CS80...and goodness knows what else. No way I'm turning my nose up at some of those just because their Captain doesn't have manners.


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