# Con Sordino, what's your preference?



## TimCox (Apr 1, 2016)

Hey all, I'm composing a piece that's exclusively for sordino strings but I'm hitting a few bumps. Particularly, while I love HS and do think their sordino modeling is quite good, I still feel something is missing from them. I've looked into the Universal Sordino a bit and up until I got HOD I was considering the LASS LS.

Any thoughts? I'm looking for a bit more expression than I'm getting. I'm not against using a different string library if I need to.

-Tim


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## Jason_D (Apr 1, 2016)

Can you post an example of what you are looking for? Something like this?





There's no vibrato that I can see in LASS LS, something to consider. I love the sordino sound. There aren't a lot of libraries out there with it.

Recorded Sordino:

8Dio Agitato Grandiose Sordino
LASS LS
Spitfire Audio Libraries...all of them I believe
London Symphonic Strings (not sure)
Apassionata Strings 2
Cornucopia Strings

Simulated Sordino:

LASS Full
Berlin Strings
Hollywood Strings


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## Silence-is-Golden (Apr 2, 2016)

LASS LS is well suited for long notes and chordal writing. But obviously the articulations is legato only. So if you have a lot of different bowings in mind this will not do it.
LASS full also has a 'sordinoiser' but thats an emulation too.

VSL is developing dim strings II sordino at the moment and I believe only the violins have been released.


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## GdT (Apr 2, 2016)

VSL Strings full libraries, Orchestral Strings and Chamber Strings, both have a big selection of sordino articulations.


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## Jdiggity1 (Apr 2, 2016)

Don't forget little old Cornucopia Strings by Strezov Sampling: https://www.strezov-sampling.com/products/view/cornucopia strings.HTML

A smaller ensemble but with recorded con sordino.
The demo track "Mare Nubium" shows off the Con Sordino.


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## StrezovSampling (Apr 2, 2016)

Jdiggity1 said:


> Don't forget little old Cornucopia Strings by Strezov Sampling: https://www.strezov-sampling.com/products/view/cornucopia strings.HTML
> 
> A smaller ensemble but with recorded con sordino.
> The demo track "Mare Nubium" shows off the Con Sordino.



Thanks for mentioning Cornucopia. It was one of our first products and still people really like the idea of strings recorded raw and without tons of processing. We are currently developing an update to be released very soon.


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## Erik (Apr 2, 2016)

Tim, you could have a look http://eotte.blogspot.nl/2015/12/sordino-or-not.html (here) maybe.


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## Jdiggity1 (Apr 2, 2016)

StrezovSampling said:


> ... We are currently developing an update to be released very soon.


Oh goodie! Looking forward to it!


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## jeffc (Apr 2, 2016)

The Sordino patches in the original Symphobia are fantastic - they're ensemble stuff, but I've used them on a lot of films that were eventually replaced by the real thing and it's really hard to tell.


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## Saxer (Apr 2, 2016)

Rob made some fantastic Cornucopia muted string demos a while ago:
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/vintage-romantic-strings.44853/#post-3864099


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## Ashermusic (Apr 2, 2016)

Saxer said:


> Rob made some fantastic Cornucopia muted string demos a while ago:
> http://vi-control.net/community/threads/vintage-romantic-strings.44853/#post-3864099




Big deal, Rob makes _everything_ sound great 

But, yes, those sound good.


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## lux (Apr 3, 2016)

the old Sonic Implants small section sordinos were nice, still use them here and there. Dunno if they ever released an updated version though.


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## Chris Porter (Apr 3, 2016)

All of the strings in the original Adagio have recorded Sordino patches as well, and they are really wonderful. I just used them in a piece yesterday.


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## airwavemusic (Apr 3, 2016)

Also have a look at 8dios agitato sordinos. Probably what you're looking for...


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## markd (Apr 3, 2016)

Spitfire Loegria has beautiful sordinos, but it's also ensemble only.


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## organix (Apr 4, 2016)

In terms of tone and emotion, the 8Dio Agitato Sordinos are my favorite. They sound very smooth in lower and very dense in higher dynamics.


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## mickeyl (Apr 4, 2016)

Yep, Agitato Sordino is superb, albeit not so easy to use.


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## TimCox (Apr 4, 2016)

Man! Lots of great things to look at, thank you everyone!

Agitato is really calling to me but I'm having a change of heart on HS as well


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## byzantium (Jun 16, 2016)

Hi Tim,

I don't have HS, but I find the 8dio Agitato Sordino lovely if it's any help.

Did you go for something?

Paul.


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## Karma (Jun 16, 2016)

+1 for Loegria. Keep finding myself coming back to them!


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## muziksculp (Jun 16, 2016)

Hopefully *VSL Dimension Strings 2* will be released this year . Only the Violins are available at this time. 

(As ususal, VSL is taking their time trying to be perfectionists  )


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 16, 2016)

A few demos here from VSL muted violins:

https://vsl.co.at/community/posts/t...sing-updated-spiccato-articulation#post244120


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## byzantium (Jun 16, 2016)

Guy Bacos said:


> A few demos here from VSL muted violins:
> 
> https://vsl.co.at/community/posts/t...sing-updated-spiccato-articulation#post244120



Thanks Guy!


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## JohnG (Jun 16, 2016)

Spitfire includes also a mix that's 1/2 con sord. strings, 1/2 normal. Very nice.


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## Steve Steele (Jun 17, 2016)

LASS LS is beautiful They're dry but that's not a problem. They sound particularly beautiful with the mod wheel very low. That's the secret with LS. CC1 low. They do have vibrato but it's not non-vb to vb. It's just a mild vibrato. Also, there are no other articulations. As someone said above LS contains sustains only.

If you have a short MIDI file that doesn't need too much editing, and you want to hear it in LASS LS, send it to me and I'll render it for you.


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## prodigalson (Jun 17, 2016)

for sheer flexibility and expression, LASS LS hands down. As far as I know, there is no other sordino legato patch out there that is as expressive and smooth as LASS LS.

Im working on a project right now that uses only divisi sordino strings and I tried all my libraries, Sable CS Legatos, Berlin Strings CS Legatos even 8DIO Adagio sordino legatos but the legato transitions or vibrato amount on all of them just never worked for the material. Pull up LASS LS though, set them all to the 'Airy Sordinos' color profile and its just effortless and very sonically flexible.


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## Leeward (Jun 18, 2016)

markd said:


> Spitfire Loegria has beautiful sordinos, but it's also ensemble only.



They really are beautiful. I always sketch out phrases with this patch and, more often than not, I leave them as they are. Very nice silky tone.


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## Rob Elliott (Jun 18, 2016)

IMHO - the best sords recorded are Berlin's (their 'expansion' - can't remember what 'letter' it was.) They are creamy, buttery smooth - the mic options are to die for. I am liking the new Mural Ensembles ones as well (will pick those up on the next sale.)


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## muziksculp (Jun 18, 2016)

Rob Elliott said:


> IMHO - the best sords recorded are Berlin's (their 'expansion' - can't remember what 'letter' it was.) They are creamy, buttery smooth - the mic options are to die for. I am liking the new Mural Ensembles ones as well (will pick those up on the next sale.)



I'm guessing you are referring to Orch. Tools Strings Expansions, but ... I don't see any Sords included in Orch. Tools Strings Expansions, and no Sords in their main Berlin Strings Library either. Unless I missed them ?


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## lucor (Jun 18, 2016)

Berlin Strings only have simulated sordinos. But still I have to agree with Rob, especially the Sul Tasto patches from the expansions with the sordino simulation sound incredibly good!


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## Rob Elliott (Jun 18, 2016)

Sorry - away from the studio - but you are probably right - I think they are Sul Tastos (with and without their simulated Sords switch). Same is true with their longs from the main library that are 'soft' (pure butter) - especially the soft 'non-vibratos'. The other one is (special bows me thinks) is the Flag (harmonics) match these with the Sul Tastos - it's magic. VERY believable on MW xfading. I really like OT's legatos but I don't always just grab them first anymore - the longs are IMHO perfect are often accomplish the intent quite well.


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## tack (Jun 18, 2016)

Leeward said:


> They really are beautiful. I always sketch out phrases with this patch and, more often than not, I leave them as they are. Very nice silky tone.


Do you think Loegria's con sord provides something that can't be achieved with Sable (possibly layering with Mural or Albion ONE)?


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## Leeward (Jun 18, 2016)

Layering with Sable might give you interesting results. By itself the Con Sord in Loegria is quite a full rich sound. Mixing it carefully with Sable, you might be able to make it sound a little smaller. Haven't tried it myself but I'm interested.


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## zolhof (Jun 18, 2016)

@muziksculp 

Totally unrelated, but man, the Super Knob is so sexy!


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## muziksculp (Jun 18, 2016)

zolhof said:


> @muziksculp
> 
> Totally unrelated, but man, the Super Knob is so sexy!



Yes, it sure is  Especially when it is animated !





The *Yamaha Montage* sounds very sexy as well. I'm in the learning, and discovery phase, and so far, I'm very impressed with what the Montage can deliver.

I posted a topic about the Yamaha Montage on this forum, here is the link : 

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/anyone-here-getting-the-new-yamaha-montage.53242/

So, we don't have to disturb this topic. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## kurtvanzo (Aug 3, 2016)

mickeyl said:


> Yep, Agitato Sordino is superb, albeit not so easy to use.


These do sound great, why not easy to use?


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## mickeyl (Aug 3, 2016)

Two of my major griefs:

The legatos lack a "playable" patch (with several speeds triggered by playing speed and/or velocity) or a convincing speed automatic that works. I find I have to adjust a lot in the midi editor after recording to make it gap-free. 

The shorts exhibit some strange effects with release tails, where if you keep holding the note you hear the baked in reverb, but when you play shorter notes, there is no separate release sample but the baked in reverb gets cut off – which makes you have to add another reverb.


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## kurtvanzo (Aug 3, 2016)

mickeyl said:


> Two of my major griefs:
> 
> The legatos lack a "playable" patch (with several speeds triggered by playing speed and/or velocity) or a convincing speed automatic that works. I find I have to adjust a lot in the midi editor after recording to make it gap-free.
> 
> The shorts exhibit some strange effects with release tails, where if you keep holding the note you hear the baked in reverb, but when you play shorter notes, there is no separate release sample but the baked in reverb gets cut off – which makes you have to add another reverb.



Thanks for the inside scoop. I'm looking at picking up the Agitato Sordinos while there's a sale going on, but the legato speed might be a big issue. I have other great normal string choices already, just wanted to add Sordino recordings since my experiments with Symphobia 1 sordinos have not gone well (longs only with long, late legatos). May eventually go for Berlin but would rather find some real recordings to pair up with CSS and CS2. I've read a few people here have had problems with the Adagio programming, I wonder if Agitato is any better (since it was released later)?

Also, a solution for the shorts (assuming you have full kontakt) is to open the wrench icon, select groups and the edit all groups button, then add an adhsr mod to all groups, go to the bottom to set the release knob up so that the patch won't chop off the tails, then save the.nki with a custom name (so you don't overwrite the original). Then in theory (unless there is scripting that counter acts it) it should work without midi tweaking. Cheers.


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## Hat_Tricky (Aug 3, 2016)

I'm asssuming that Logeria sords are very close to Spitfire Chamber Strings sords? I absolutely LOVE con sordino and am trying to figure out a plan of attack (currently only own Albion ONE and Albion I legacy strings)

Was planning on getting Cinematic Studio Strings, and Spirfire Chamber Strings. Before that, I was almost ready to get Cinematic Strings2 and Albion Loegria. Before that, it was just LASS or Berlin - one or the other (have a budget for strings around 1k)


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## ModalRealist (Aug 3, 2016)

Hat_Tricky said:


> I'm asssuming that Logeria sords are very close to Spitfire Chamber Strings sords?



For anyone wondering what Loegria's CS sounds like:



From memory, I'm certain that was 100% Loegria's Hi and Low CS. (Forgive the mockup quality. It was the third thing I ever did.)


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## kurtvanzo (Aug 3, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> For anyone wondering what Loegria's CS sounds like:
> 
> 
> 
> From memory, I'm certain that was 100% Loegria's Hi and Low CS. (Forgive the mockup quality. It was the third thing I ever did.)




Thanks for this. I was just thinking this was my other option. I like the sound of 8Dio's,but if it's not very playable (needs a lot of midi tweaking) i may need to find something else. Did you use the close mics? It's a bit dryier than I expected, but it could be the soft playing just doesn't reflect in the hall as much.

Daniel James has a nice video on Loegria, goes through sordinos at 8 min.


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## ModalRealist (Aug 4, 2016)

kurtvanzo said:


> Did you use the close mics?



I'm pretty certain that I used the Tree mics. I remember "playing to" the ambience, rather than playing as if it was dry and letting the tails go everywhere. After all, musicians tend to break their notes a tad sooner in a wet environment than a dry one, for that exact reason. (At least in my experience - maybe people who work with top-notch pro instrumentalists find that to be otherwise.)


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## X-Bassist (Aug 7, 2016)

mickeyl said:


> Two of my major griefs:
> 
> The legatos lack a "playable" patch (with several speeds triggered by playing speed and/or velocity) or a convincing speed automatic that works. I find I have to adjust a lot in the midi editor after recording to make it gap-free.
> 
> The shorts exhibit some strange effects with release tails, where if you keep holding the note you hear the baked in reverb, but when you play shorter notes, there is no separate release sample but the baked in reverb gets cut off – which makes you have to add another reverb.



I took a look at the Agitato violins in their try pack and it seems they have custom ahdsr envelopes on different groups, so any extra envelopes added do nothing unfortunately.

These envelopes added ramp the sound in and have a set release, which I assume is to get a control over noise levels in the samples when playing many keys together. The samples sound great, but without user control over these envelopes they would indeed be difficult to program and make sound natural because the set cutoffs are so obvious. Even if you can program the note off to be later (to help the tails) you are stuck with an attack that sometime sounds good, and other times has clear ramp ins that stick out at times. Its nice to see they have legato speed and volume controls, but without adjustable attack and release I not sure these can work right.

Is this the same for the Sordinos and Adagio series?


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 22, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> A few demos here from VSL muted violins:
> 
> https://vsl.co.at/community/posts/t...sing-updated-spiccato-articulation#post244120



http://www.guybacos.com/audio/Ocean Sunset.mp3


the VSL Violins con Sordino are beautiful.

about to plunge for those in SE v.3.


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## Leon Portelance (Jul 22, 2018)

I have LASS Legato Sordino. It is a beautiful library.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 23, 2018)

Leon Portelance said:


> I have LASS Legato Sordino. It is a beautiful library.



They sound amazing as well.

Silly question,

Can you use LASS Legato Sordino without LASS 2.5 Full?


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## Leon Portelance (Jul 23, 2018)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> They sound amazing as well.
> 
> Silly question,
> 
> Can you use LASS Legato Sordino without LASS 2.5 Full?



I also have LASS 2.5: but Legato Sordino is a separate library which you can use without LASS 2.5.


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## LHall (Jul 23, 2018)

I love the LASS Sordinos. Here's an example


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 23, 2018)

Chris Porter said:


> All of the strings in the original Adagio have recorded Sordino patches as well, and they are really wonderful. I just used them in a piece yesterday.



As much as I regret buying the Adagio bundle, I admit the sords are really nice. Especially the dynamic bowing patches. If you just need a full ensemble, Adagietto isn't too bad for the price.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 23, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> As much as I regret buying the Adagio bundle, I admit the sords are really nice. Especially the dynamic bowing patches. If you just need a full ensemble, Adagietto isn't too bad for the price.



I'm growing more fond of Adagietto with each use.

Saving my pennies for VSL SE v.3 and SCS.


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## robgb (Jul 23, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> If you just need a full ensemble, Adagietto isn't too bad for the price.


More than a full ensemble. You get the individual sections as well. But the sordinos are limited to the sustains and dynamic bowings, and they sound gorgeous.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 23, 2018)

VSL Special Edition Volume 3

Appassionata strings

Staccato, détaché, sustained, sforzato
Legato, portamento (except basses)
Tremolo, pizzicato
Appassionata strings con sordino

Staccato, détaché, sustained, sforzato
Legato, portamento (except basses)
Tremolo, pizzicato
Solo strings con sordino

Staccato, détaché, sustained, sforzato
Legato, portamento
Tremolo, pizzicato
Chamber strings con sordino

Staccato, détaché, sustained, sforzato
Legato, portamento
Tremolo, pizzicato

*Included Instruments*
Appassionata violins (20 players) – normal & “con sordino”
Appassionata violas (14 players) – normal & “con sordino”
Appassionata cellos (12 players) – normal & “con sordino”
Appassionata double basses (10 players) – normal & “con sordino”

Solo violin – “con sordino”
Solo viola – “con sordino”
Solo cello – “con sordino”
Solo double bass – “con sordino”

Violin chamber ensemble (6 players) – “con sordino”
Viola chamber ensemble (4 players) – “con sordino”
Cello chamber ensemble (3 players) – “con sordino”
Double bass chamber ensemble (2 players) – “con sordino


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## robgb (Jul 23, 2018)

Here's a small taste of the Adagietto cellos sordino:

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/adagietto-cellos-sordino-001-mp3.14515/][/AUDIOPLUS]

And here's VSL's sordino (from Opus 1):

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/vsl-cellos-sordino-001-mp3.14516/][/AUDIOPLUS]

Albion One sordino strings:

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/albion-one-strings-sordino-mp3.14517/][/AUDIOPLUS]

Kirk Hunter Virtuoso Cellos (Sordino may have been simulated by me. I can't remember):

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/kirk-hunter-virtuoso-strings-sordino-simulated-by-me_-001-mp3.14518/][/AUDIOPLUS]

Cinematic Strings 2 Cellos Sordino (simulated by me):

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/cinematic-strings-2-cellos-sordino-simulated-by-me-mp3.14519/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 23, 2018)

robgb said:


> More than a full ensemble. You get the individual sections as well. But the sordinos are limited to the sustains and dynamic bowings, and they sound gorgeous.



Ah yes, you are correct. And they are great.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 23, 2018)

robgb said:


> Here's a small taste of the Adagietto cellos sordino:
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/adagietto-cellos-sordino-001-mp3.14515/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> ...



Fantastic.

Thanks.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 23, 2018)

robgb said:


> Here's a small taste of the Adagietto cellos sordino:
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/adagietto-cellos-sordino-001-mp3.14515/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> ...




i like Adagietto the best of these.

Which VSL? Appassionata, Orchestral, or Chamber? - obviously not Solo.


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## Vik (Jul 23, 2018)

Can't comment on VSL's sordinos, but the SSS/SCS con sords are my favourite (also layered). SSS's combined con sord/normale articulations are also great.

CSS, being fake con sord is also quite good. I'm very curious about LASS con sords as well (but I have kind of stopped buying string libraries):


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## robgb (Jul 23, 2018)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> Which VSL? Appassionata, Orchestral, or Chamber?


Orchestral, from Opus 1, a Kontakt library, from back before they created their own player.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 23, 2018)

robgb said:


> Orchestral, from Opus 1, a Kontakt library, from back before they created their own player.



interesting, i have the VSL Orch Sords, they sound a lot different than your clip.

granted, i am using MIRx.

if i wasn't in a right hand cast and prepping for a trip to LA, i'd post something.

when i get back.

i'm still sold on SE v. 3 and SCS.


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## robgb (Jul 23, 2018)

I really like the Adagietto, myself. But that's about it.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 23, 2018)

robgb said:


> I really like the Adagietto, myself. But that's about it.



I'm not up on all the 8Dio brouhaha, but i think their string offerings are very nice sounding.


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## robgb (Jul 23, 2018)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> I'm not up on all the 8Dio brouhaha, but i think their string offerings are very nice sounding.


Try layering them. You might like what you hear.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 23, 2018)

here's a sampke of the Adagietto - Dynamic Bowing Sord 1

Faure - Apres un Reve

Downloaded MIDI file, no alterations or performance CCs.

EA Nimbus FX bus.

Took liberty with the tempo.

i just had my hand reset today and a cast put on - heavily medicated, so probably anything sounds mindblowingly good right now.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 23, 2018)

WAY off topic,

just for grins, here's the same MIDI file with Chris Hein's Romantic Cello.

drag and dropped MIDI.


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## Saxer (Jul 23, 2018)

Nobody mentioned Century Strings here? They have a full articulation set.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 23, 2018)

Saxer said:


> Nobody mentioned Century Strings here? They have a full articulation set.




interested in this one, but at 204.9gb, it's a beast.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 23, 2018)

Faure - Chris Hein Romantic Cello con Sordino


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