# Orchestra Tools Berlin Orchestra -- Created with Berklee



## MaxOctane (Sep 9, 2021)

Starting a non-commercial thread.









Berlin Orchestra


A full symphony orchestra with meticulously sampled instruments, all in one place. Developed in collaboration with the world-renowned Berklee College of Music, Berlin Orchestra (by Berklee) gives you everything you need for serious orchestral composition and scoring. Construct individual parts...




www.orchestraltools.com





Thoughts? Versus Berlin Strings/WW/percussion? Versus BBCSO? Well-priced or too high?

I just noticed this on their page:



> Samples drawn from the acclaimed Orchestral Tools Berlin Series


----------



## Nuno (Sep 9, 2021)

I think this library will fit very nicely with Divisimate.


----------



## CT (Sep 9, 2021)

Like I said in the other thread the price seems pretty reasonable for what it is. After listening to demos though, I think I'd not be satisfied with the single mix which largely feels a little too proximal for my taste.


----------



## tritonely (Sep 9, 2021)

As a composer with not the ultimate computer specs, this is a library where I get regrets that I bought some other orchestral libraries the last months. I actually prefer that it's only a mix mic so I don't have to merge all these instruments myself as I shouldn't use multiple mics if I want to use a full orchestra with my computer. But still pricey, even with edu discount (509,40 + VAT). If it was around $300 where it has less soloists and only 3-4 dynamic layers and fewer round robins, it would be an instant buy for me. They already said the Berlin Inspire purchases will get you discounts, but after the intro period unfortunately. If that leads with the edu discount to $300-400 range, I will be very much tempted to refund earlier purchases to get this one.


----------



## Getsumen (Sep 9, 2021)

tritonely said:


> As a composer with not the ultimate computer specs, this is a library where I get regrets that I bought some other orchestral libraries the last months. I actually prefer that it's only a mix mic so I don't have to merge all these instruments myself as I shouldn't use multiple mics if I want to use a full orchestra with my computer. But still pricey, even with edu discount (509,40 + VAT). If it was around $300 where it has less soloists and only 3-4 dynamic layers and fewer round robins, it would be an instant buy for me. They already said the Berlin Inspire purchases will get you discounts, but after the intro period unfortunately. If that leads with the edu discount to $300-400 range, I will be very much tempted to refund earlier purchases to get this one.


I agree its a bit of a strange choice to include all 4 horns, woodwind variations, etc. for a more mid tier lib. They def coulda lowered price and cut out some solo instruments and I doubt many people would complain.


----------



## tcb (Sep 9, 2021)

Looks like BBCSO OT version


----------



## Germain B (Sep 9, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> I agree its a bit of a strange choice to include all 4 horns, woodwind variations, etc. for a more mid tier lib. They def coulda lowered price and cut out some solo instruments and I doubt many people would complain.


That's what makes them different. For some people, having every instrument is a big plus. And there's no other full ensemble that provides that (in my knowledge).


----------



## Zanshin (Sep 9, 2021)

Price in US dollars is ~$1000, same price as SSO standard or BBC Pro, seems a little high to me.

That said - even though I'm not personally interested, nice to have another 'complete' package on offer.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 9, 2021)

I honestly don’t understand the appeal of something like this. Definitely overpriced for only 1 mic mix (3 mics would have been perfect).

Then again, i think most of OT’s libs are overpriced.


----------



## davidson (Sep 9, 2021)

The single mic stops me using the inspire libraries 90% of the time so they just sit there gathering virtual dust. Lesson learned, i guess...


----------



## Michael Antrum (Sep 9, 2021)

Is it just me, or do you find it a bit weird that they go to all the trouble of creating this new re-pack of their flagship libraries, tie it all up with a deal with a name like Berklee, and yet completely fail to have sorted out the upgrade/cross-grade and side-grade options for their existing customers ?

Someone else mentioned there is no path to the new library for those who have the full BSO. Well that's a kick in the teeth, as I'm sure that there a more than a few people with the full libraries who would love to have a more compact version for laptop use.

Just seems a bit half-cocked to me. Your best customers are often your existing customers - as they are already invested in you.

Anyway, wish them best of luck with their new library.


----------



## Virtuoso (Sep 9, 2021)

I see they're still brazenly plugging the non-functional mic merge feature. Disgraceful.






For the record, this was my email exchange with OT back in July. Still zero progress since December last year on this issue. I wouldn't trust them with a penny. In any case, VSL's Synchron Player absolutely wipes the floor with Sine.



> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 9:54:55 CEST virtuoso wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> I would like to request a refund for Berlin Symphonic Strings. It was advertised as supporting Mic Merge, which has never worked. I bought the library on day one and seven months later there is still no fix, so I am tired of waiting and would just like a refund.





> On Jul 21, 2021, at 3:56 PM, OT Support <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> We have made great progress on this issue, it will most likely be fixed on the next SINE version.
> ...


I'm sure I don't need to point out that you will only become aware of the issue after you've downloaded the library, thereby revoking your right to a refund. How is this legal?

PS - just to pre-empt fanboys and apologists whining about how this has no relevance to the Berklee library, it's about whether you feel OT has handled this issue properly and whether you should invest a considerable amount of money with them. For me, that's a firm no.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 9, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> I honestly don’t understand the appeal of something like this. Definitely overpriced for only 1 mic mix (3 mics would have been perfect).
> 
> Then again, i think most of OT’s libs are overpriced.


I really like all in one orchestral type packages such as the BBCSO but it unfortunately does not appeal to me with only the 1 mic option and cut down articulations. I would have liked a few mic options and some other articulations like the leg runs to have been included in it.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 9, 2021)

Virtuoso said:


> I see they're still brazenly plugging the non-functional mic merge feature. Disgraceful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is one of the reasons I have started favouring VSL over other developers. 14 day returns and resales with no messing around and little risk.


----------



## Virtuoso (Sep 9, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> This is one of the reasons I have started favouring VSL over other developers. 14 day returns and resales with no messing around and little risk.


Yup - they stand by their product. No BS. Or BSS!


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 9, 2021)

Virtuoso said:


> Yup - they stand by their product. No BS. Or BSS!


Absolutely. Theirs just no BS. I just don't like paying out these large sums of money and then having zero options to even resale if I need too or if I come across issues with a library that were not apparent on purchase that make the library unsuitable for me. Your essentially just stuck with it.


----------



## Trash Panda (Sep 9, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Then again, i think most of OT’s libs are overpriced.


They are at least consistent with hilariously overpricing most of their products. One day the bean counters will win the war and force a price reduction to generate more sales.


----------



## rrichard63 (Sep 9, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> I agree its a bit of a strange choice to include all 4 horns, woodwind variations, etc. for a more mid tier lib. They def coulda lowered price and cut out some solo instruments and I doubt many people would complain.


If I understand correctly, the choice of instruments and sections was made to fit the requirements of Berklee's curriculum.


----------



## Getsumen (Sep 9, 2021)

rrichard63 said:


> If I understand correctly, the choice of instruments sections was made to fit the requirements of Berklee's curriculum.


That's true. I guess I should be asking Berklee the question lmao


Germain B said:


> That's what makes them different. For some people, having every instrument is a big plus. And there's no other full ensemble that provides that (in my knowledge).


Yes that's true, but like even 2-3 horns instead of 4, or something like that woulda been fine imo



Virtuoso said:


> I see they're still brazenly plugging the non-functional mic merge feature. Disgraceful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You do realize that's just the standard web template right though? They're not purposefully advertising mic merge for this lib because well.. this lib has one mic. Not much to merge.


----------



## Evans (Sep 9, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> You do realize that's just the standard web template right though?


While that's most definitely a reusable component and is goofily irrelevant to Berlin Orchestra, it's a shame that it still appears on the BSS page.


----------



## Getsumen (Sep 9, 2021)

Evans said:


> While that's most definitely a reusable component and is goofily irrelevant to Berlin Orchestra, it's a shame that it still appears on the BSS page.


Oh yeah that's something I don't like. I recall actually that OT said they were going to remove that part for the Berklee orch, so if that was an option all along they definitely could've done the same for BSS


----------



## MaxOctane (Sep 9, 2021)

Does this lib have anything at all to do with Berklee? I get the reason for co-branding, but usually there is *some* connection. HZ really did provide specs and a vision for his strings library. BBCSO really was recorded in BBC's hall. And so forth.

This really feels like OT is just slapping Berklee's name on this.


----------



## Marsen (Sep 9, 2021)

I don't think it's overpriced.
It may be too high priced for some, which then always have other good options like BBCO.

As an owner of Berlin main, i see myself a lot of times adding a close mic to the tree, which is, as i understood it, the combination of the stereo mix in Berlin Orchestra. 
Sometimes I add another Solo Woodwind underneath with one of the Inspire package. In a dense arrangement why not? If it's not exposed...but even if...It's really good.

It's always nice to have all the mic options, but on the other hand, you can write most of the stuff with this. Sometimes less is more.
Like Cinematic Studio Series, I guess at least 90% of the owners use the stereo mix.
With much more ressources in ram way beyond 128GB and cpu-power, this is no or minor issue to use all these mic options (speaking berlin kontakt) , and all single instead of ensemble Instruments. 
But as your knowledge/ gigs grows, you can upgrade. 
And sometimes, you just don't have the time to single out all Instruments. 
So, not only for students, I can see, this is a wonderful library. 

And why compare everything just by price?
You can't always compare these libraries just by price, mic-positions and GB download-size.
If you do love this library by sound and performance, and you are in the (luxury) situation to afford it, buy it!
If you don't, don't care, buy something different what makes you create your music . 🙂
Just saying, OT provides some really comprehensive stuff there.


----------



## Virtuoso (Sep 9, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> You do realize that's just the standard web template right though? They're not purposefully advertising mic merge for this lib because well.. this lib has one mic. Not much to merge.


Of course - I did mention that at the end of my post.

Just making sure that people know this is a company that doesn't stand by their product, makes false claims of functionality, knowingly releases products with obvious headline bugs that go unfixed for months (10 months and counting?! Seriously?). You're not going to read about this on OT's website, and you will have no recourse if you trust them with your money. You have every reason to be suspicious of a company that forces you to waive your consumer rights as part of the checkout process.

If you don't think that's a good way to run a business, vote with your wallet. Treat customers well and they will be loyal advocates. Screw people over and they get vocal.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 9, 2021)

One key difference between this and BBCSO is the level of sampling that you can upgrade to. This is similar to an overpriced Core, but i see the depth of sampling in the main libraries as a key advantage

For everyone in here propping VSL up as an example of how things should be done, need i remind everyone about the Synchron Strings debacle? The Cantabile update came after SS1 was near-universally hated upon release with legatos that were, to my ears, dead and near unusable. And what was VSL's reaction? Dead silence for a year. Or the controversial dongle policy. I understand that they claim to look at things on a case-by-case basis and that you might not be totally out of luck if the dongle is lost or broken, but we can't pretend that's somehow better than the "soon" we're getting from OT. And i say all this as a fan of their products and company, not as a way to disparage them. In fact i defended VSL for that exact policy at the time because i understand the nature of the industry. Same story here.

Also...you can still use the libraries without mic merge. It's not like you're getting libraries that are unusable. They're perfectly usable. Nobody's buying SINE libraries because they're just crazy about SINE, they're buying them for the sounds. And you get those sounds. Just like the VSL dongle policy, this is so overblown for a feature that so many people won't even use and that everyone already does just fine without, and that will get fixed in time anyway.

Last point on that...mic merging apparently works anyway. I've only read reports of it not working in one single library.

This is a waste of bytes.


----------



## Zanshin (Sep 9, 2021)

Is there talk of an upgrade path to the full libraries?


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 9, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Is there talk of an upgrade path to the full libraries?


Yes, there will apparently be some kind of discount


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 9, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Yes, there will apparently be some kind of discount


It'll probably be very expensive to upgrade to the full libraries though. Not like a BBCSO Core to Pro upgrade.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 9, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> It'll probably be very expensive to upgrade to the full libraries though. Not like a BBCSO Core to Pro upgrade.


Correct, and you get a ton more articulations. Everything's a balance 😊


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 9, 2021)

With some nice upgrade options such as options to add extra mics or extra articulations to sections then I'd buy into it but not as it is with a single mic, limited articulations and no real options to upgrade it beyond paying out a lot of money for the full berlin series.


----------



## Zanshin (Sep 9, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Yes, there will apparently be some kind of discount


That’s cool then. I still think the price is high, but if it gave you a stackable ~20% off the full library, that takes the edge off somewhat.

I wouldn’t buy this for half the intro price lol, it just isn’t for me, but again I think it is cool it exists.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 9, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Correct, and you get a ton more articulations. Everything's a balance 😊


Very true, it does come with a ton of articulations but at a high cost. I'd be happy with the new Berlin Orchestra with a few extra mics and maybe a few extra articulations such as portatos for strings and some string run legato but would not want to pay out for it with only 1 mic position and at this point I would not be looking to buy into the full on Berlin series as I already have many other options already and the full Berlin range is pretty expensive. 

I suppose I just really like the all in one orchestra in a box approach which is why I really like BBCSO and do like that the Berlin Orchestra comes with all the RR and dynamics of the full range it's just a shame that their has been cuts in other areas such as mics and some important articulations missed out.


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 9, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> .
> 
> Last point on that...mic merging apparently works anyway. I've only read reports of it not working in one single library.
> 
> This is a waste of bytes.


Yes, mic merge works for me on everything except BSS and the Organic Samples horn threw up an error when I mic merged it but the merge itself still worked.


----------



## FrozenIcicle (Sep 9, 2021)

In before the fanbois (muziksculp) reply with their bias praise.

I Think this product is necessary like HWO etc for new customers to buy but way overpriced for existing customers. Let’s see what their discount does but I’m sure it will be expensive af


----------



## Technostica (Sep 9, 2021)

MaxOctane said:


> Does this lib have anything at all to do with Berklee? I get the reason for co-branding, but usually there is *some* connection. HZ really did provide specs and a vision for his strings library. BBCSO really was recorded in BBC's hall. And so forth.
> 
> This really feels like OT is just slapping Berklee's name on this.


Berklee provided the nightingales that sung on the bird choir. 
They recorded some very hip articulations, nothing square.


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 9, 2021)

I purposefully skipped the Spitfire summer sale and have to admit feeling let down by this release. This seems like OT's equivalent of the BBCSO Core version but for $350 USD more even with the educational discount. Does anyone know if Berklee students get a deeper discount than the 40%?


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 9, 2021)

As a student with the current 40% VSL sale you could get Synchron Elite or Pro Strings, Synchron Brass, BBO Quasar and Phoenix for the same price as this new Berlin Orchestra. You'd just miss some woodwinds but would get full on detailed strings, brass and some nice percussion with Quasar and Phoenix.


----------



## szczaw (Sep 9, 2021)

I would get it, if I didn't already have three more or less complete orchestras. Compared to the full Berlin libraries, the price is reasonable. However, I’m not sure if those libraries are today worth thousands of $.


----------



## muziksculp (Sep 9, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> In before the fanbois (muziksculp) reply with their bias praise.




Bias Praise ? What are you talking about ? Bias Praise for who ? 

I have been a big critique of OT, i.e. BSS not fixed issues, and the super long wait for their Berlin Series to be ported to SINE, I have no interest in this new Berlin Orchestra Created with Berklee library.


----------



## MA-Simon (Sep 9, 2021)

Namebranding a library like this with no connection seems distastefull to me. 

Not to say that forbiding resale on a software product like this might illegal in germany. You are not getting samples, they are packed and recoded in a piece of copyprotected, closed software. It is software at that point. It's like those expensive schoolbooks you have to buy but won't be able to resale. It's seems mean spirited and weird.


----------



## Getsumen (Sep 9, 2021)

MA-Simon said:


> Namebranding a library like this with no connection seems distastefull to me.
> 
> Not to say that forbiding resale on a software product like this might illegal in germany. You are not getting samples, they are packed and recoded in a piece of copyprotected, closed software. It is software at that point. It's like those expensive schoolbooks you have to buy but won't be able to resale. It's seems mean spirited and weird.


I mean the connection is that Berklee is using this for their curriculum or whatever. They're just also happening to make it available for everyone. Does that "connection" lend much to the lib itself? Technically some person from Berklee was the one who chose the specs and such but in the end, no not really. You can't really say there's no connection though, it still was made and used for Berklee


----------



## MA-Simon (Sep 9, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> I mean the connection is that Berklee is using this for their curriculum or whatever. They're just also happening to make it available for everyone. Does that "connection" lend much to the lib itself? Technically some person from Berklee was the one who chose the specs and such but in the end, no not really. You can't really say there's no connection though, it still was made and used for Berklee


To me that is just misleading advertising. Nothing was recorded with berklee. 99% when a library uses a place like this it is recorded at that place. For an edu library they could have choosen any music college, but to my knowledge berklee is not in berlin, nor in germany. So it is chosen for name and money.


----------



## Loerpert (Sep 9, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> Is it just me, or do you find it a bit weird that they go to all the trouble of creating this new re-pack of their flagship libraries, tie it all up with a deal with a name like Berklee, and yet completely fail to have sorted out the upgrade/cross-grade and side-grade options for their existing customers ?
> 
> Someone else mentioned there is no path to the new library for those who have the full BSO. Well that's a kick in the teeth, as I'm sure that there a more than a few people with the full libraries who would love to have a more compact version for laptop use.
> 
> ...



I agree. We can praise Spitfire for giving us BBCSO pro owners the lower options for free, like it should.


----------



## korruptkey (Sep 9, 2021)

MA-Simon said:


> To me that is just misleading advertising. Nothing was recorded with berklee. 99% when a library uses a place like this it is recorded at that place. For an edu library they could have choosen any music college, but to my knowledge berklee is not in berlin, nor in germany. So it is chosen for name and money.


But they never claimed that it was recorded with Berklee. Literally, the second highlight item says "Samples drawn from the acclaimed Orchestral Tools Berlin Series". Yah, most of the time it's recorded in the place for what it's called... but it's still called "Berlin Orchestra".


----------



## Getsumen (Sep 9, 2021)

MA-Simon said:


> To me that is just misleading advertising. Nothing was recorded with berklee. 99% when a library uses a place like this it is recorded at that place. For an edu library they could have choosen any music college, but to my knowledge berklee is not in berlin, nor in germany. So it is chosen for name and money.


I would presume it was the other way around, I can't imagine OT just banging around going college to college asking them to use their libraries. 

I don't really see how some people thought it would be a Berklee recorded lib. Heck, I even posted way back in the initial start of the commercial announcements thread that I didn't think it would be a library at all since I felt like it would make so little sense for Berklee to make a lib with OT. Would there be any attractive factor in recording a new lib with Berklee? For me at least I don't see what benefit there would be.

The advertising seems pretty clear on that front. It's pretty obvious everywhere, from the site, the vid, the name, that it's a repackaged Berlin orch. Not an orch recorded in Berklee, by Berklee, etc.


Either way, I guess we have different definitions of "connections". I never saw the Berklee aspect of really being an important part of the advertisement since I don't really care if Berklee had any involvement. The connection of Berklee using it for their curriculum is good enough for me, because personally, I couldn't care less. I think they said somewhere though that they're gonna keep doing stuff with the partnership, so who knows, you might get your Berklee orch or something (I doubt it though).


----------



## Marlon Brown (Sep 9, 2021)

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think the demos sound good.


----------



## mybadmemory (Sep 9, 2021)

It feels like their response to BBCSO, targeting students and proper orchestration, rather than beginners or the fast working media crowd. But why do these packages never include any ensemble patches? That’s the one thing I’ve been missing with BBCSO. As much as I appreciate having all sections and soloists separate, some times you really just a strings shorts or brass longs patch to get going. Feels like the very basic ensemble patches could easily be combined from the same source material to save some time and ram once in a while.

The pricing seem to be right between BBCSO Core and Pro. And give you more instruments than core but no mics like pro. I’m sure it’s more deeply sampled in terms of dynamics and round robins. But seems to have fewer articulations overall. I guess if you really like the sound of Berlin this is a nice step above Inspire thats nowhere near as expensive as the full series. But in terms of price / performance it still looks like BBCSO Core at sale would be a much better deal for many, and approaching the price this package has, I think at least a few basic mics would have been nice?


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 9, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> It feels like their response to BBCSO, targeting students and proper orchestration, rather than beginners or the fast working media crowd. But why do these packages never include any ensemble patches? That’s the one thing I’ve been missing with BBCSO. As much as I appreciate having all sections and soloists separate, some times you really just a strings shorts or brass longs patch to get going. Feels like the very basic ensemble patches could easily be combined from the same source material to save some time and ram once in a while.
> 
> The pricing seem to be right between BBCSO Core and Pro. And give you more instruments than core but no mics like pro. I’m sure it’s more deeply sampled in terms of dynamics and round robins. But seems to have fewer articulations overall. I guess if you really like the sound of Berlin this is a nice step above Inspire thats nowhere near as expensive as the full series. But in terms of price / performance it still looks like BBCSO Core at sale would be a much better deal for many, and approaching the price this package has, I think at least a few basic mics would have been nice?


I agree, I think at its price range it should have included more mics than just a single mix. It's essentially at BBCSO Pro price point.


----------



## axb312 (Sep 10, 2021)

Everything from OT is generally overpriced imo.why should this be Different?


----------



## gedlig (Sep 10, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> The pricing seem to be right between BBCSO Core and Pro.


It isn't. The current intro period price shown and the full price are without VAT. The actual full price you'd pay is like BBC SO pro if not even more.
Yeah, the sample content (consistency, RR and dynamic layer count (also they have proper loud dynamics)) is better than in BBC SO, but with less instruments, articulations and only a single mix, that puts it in BBC SO core territory, but priced as pro.


----------



## MaxOctane (Sep 10, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> It feels like their response to BBCSO, targeting students and proper orchestration, rather than beginners or the fast working media crowd.


But BBCSO is equally useful for composition students, since it has proper solo and sections.

I don't mean to target your comment specifically, but I think people attach too much meaning into the "marketing" name of a library. I do understand that's precisely why companies do it, of course. 

I remember when Bernhard Herrmann Composer Toolkit was released, a lot people thought somehow that it was better (or only) for 1950's film music (!?). Here, OT is obviously piggybacking off the Berklee name to suggest this is somehow specifically aimed at students, but Berklee adds literally zero value to the library.

If a company *really *wants to target students, they need to release a sub-$100 library. Students have no money! That is their defining characteristic -- they're broke


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 10, 2021)

gedlig said:


> It isn't. The current intro period price shown and the full price are without VAT. The actual full price you'd pay is like BBC SO pro if not even more.
> Yeah, the sample content (consistency, RR and dynamic layer count (also they have proper loud dynamics)) is better than in BBC SO, but with less instruments, articulations and only a single mix, that puts it in BBC SO core territory, but priced as pro.


Technically it is priced in between Pro and Core since Berklee students are most likely based in the U.S. and I don’t think VAT applies to purchases if they are made from the U.S.

But I agree it feels like BBCSO Core more than Pro. That’s why I’m wondering if Berklee students get an even bigger discount than the OT 40%, otherwise what is the incentive for Berklee students to buy this over other libraries that offer more articulations and mic positions


----------



## Technostica (Sep 10, 2021)

pandamacion said:


> But I agree it feels like BBCSO Core more than Pro. That’s why I’m wondering if Berklee students get an even bigger discount than the OT 40%, otherwise what is the incentive for Berklee students to buy this over other libraries that offer more articulations and mic positions


They may be required to purchase it as a requisite for a course.


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 10, 2021)

MaxOctane said:


> Does this lib have anything at all to do with Berklee? I get the reason for co-branding, but usually there is *some* connection. HZ really did provide specs and a vision for his strings library. BBCSO really was recorded in BBC's hall. And so forth.
> 
> This really feels like OT is just slapping Berklee's name on this.


In the walkthrough video, Andreas Bjørck, an instructor at Berklee, says that he worked with OT to develop the library. I assume this means choosing what instruments and articulations to take from the full Berlin libraries and having some input on how the mix sounded. I think there was some connection.


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 10, 2021)

Technostica said:


> They may be required to purchase it as a requisite for a course.


I found a pdf listing the course requirements and the library is listed as one of many options along with Composer Cloud, VSL all-in-ones, or BBCSO Pro. I don’t think it’s required.


----------



## MaxOctane (Sep 10, 2021)

pandamacion said:


> In the walkthrough video, Andreas Bjørck, an instructor at Berklee, says that he worked with OT to develop the library. I assume this means choosing what instruments and articulations to take from the full Berlin libraries and having some input on how the mix sounded. I think there was some connection.


Yeah, I hear you, but the articulations are just.... sustains, legato, stacc, pizz, trem, etc. I don't think you need a Berklee master instructor to arrive at that list


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 10, 2021)

MaxOctane said:


> Yeah, I hear you, but the articulations are just.... sustains, legato, stacc, pizz, trem, etc. I don't think you need a Berklee master instructor to arrive at that list


I guess I can see it in the woodwinds and brass splitting the sections into individual instruments instead of instrument ensembles like in Nucleus. Though for the price, I feel you would expect both ensembles and individual instruments.

Do you own any of the Berlin series already? Do you feel the Berlin sound and sampling justifies the price if someone is just getting into the Berlin series?


----------



## MaxOctane (Sep 10, 2021)

pandamacion said:


> Do you own any of the Berlin series already? Do you feel the Berlin sound and sampling justifies the price if someone is just getting into the Berlin series?


That's a great question, and at the end of the day the most important one.

I have BWW (Kontakt) + BWW Soloists (SINE) + Special Bows I and II, and both Inspires. They are outstanding. I don't own BS but am looking forward to grabbing it on discount when they release SINE version. I do have a ton of other OT libs, btw, and am consistently pleased with them.

But $1000 still seems high for a limited lib, despite the great sound. Not cheap enough to be "cheap." 🤷


----------



## emilio_n (Sep 10, 2021)

They should offer in the package something really focus on education. Maybe some mini-course of composition or a guide to building the template. I think Spitfire also lose the opportunity with BBCSO when they created "The page" but really isn't put a lot of valuable content.

I don't think is an expensive library for a serious student, full orchestra libraries are much more expensive, but offer a very basic package for less price will be a good idea for students with no budget.


----------



## holywilly (Sep 10, 2021)

I think OT wants the students to upgrade from Berlin Orchestra to individual Berlin package with special discounted price in the future.

I remember back in the days VSL Special editions are required in Berklee (heard from a friend who is Berklee graduate), that was in early 2000 I believe and VSL special editions are quite expensive.


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 10, 2021)

pandamacion said:


> I found a pdf listing the course requirements and the library is listed as one of many options along with Composer Cloud, VSL all-in-ones, or BBCSO Pro. I don’t think it’s required.


It is required for all film scoring students at the physical Berklee college in Boston. The PDF you're referring to is for a Berklee Online course I teach, where I only list it as one of many recommended, but not required, options.


----------



## sinkd (Sep 10, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> That's true. I guess I should be asking Berklee the question lmao
> 
> Yes that's true, but like even 2-3 horns instead of 4, or something like that woulda been fine imo
> 
> ...


4 horns is standard symphonic orchestration. If the Berklee curriculum includes doing mockups of Brahms, for example, you would need 4 individual horns.


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 10, 2021)

pandamacion said:


> In the walkthrough video, Andreas Bjørck, an instructor at Berklee, says that he worked with OT to develop the library. I assume this means choosing what instruments and articulations to take from the full Berlin libraries and having some input on how the mix sounded. I think there was some connection.


Yes - all of this, but it also went a lot deeper than just that. The connection is a lot stronger than what some are asumming/suggesting here.


----------



## rrichard63 (Sep 10, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> But why do these packages never include any ensemble patches? That’s the one thing I’ve been missing with BBCSO. As much as I appreciate having all sections and soloists separate, some times you really just a strings shorts or brass longs patch to get going


Would OT's Layers serve this purpose?


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 10, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> But why do these packages never include any ensemble patches? That’s the one thing I’ve been missing with BBCSO. As much as I appreciate having all sections and soloists separate, some times you really just a strings shorts or brass longs patch to get going. Feels like the very basic ensemble patches could easily be combined from the same source material to save some time and ram once in a while.


You can do this very easily in SINE, and save it as a preset. Hendrik creates a string ensemble in his walkthrough that was part of the announcement video yesterday, and I made a low brass ensemble octave patch in my walkthrough video.


----------



## korruptkey (Sep 10, 2021)

I don't really understand why people have an issue with the Berklee connection here. I mean isn't Iconica with Steinberg the same deal? No one complained that they didn't record it with Steinberg, and the only connection was really that it ran in Steinberg's sampler. It still costs an arm and a leg. Though Iconica seems like a better deal for what you get. But I'm sure pricing for that was determined by Steinberg and not OT.

The main difference here is that OT didn't make this product exclusive to Berklee.

My only gripe is that full lib owners don't get this product for free... Or at a heavily discounted price... But the same could be said about Inspire. I have Berlin Strings and the round robin on shorts doesn't sound as good as the ones from inspire, its more than just reusing the same patches, they've made some improvements. They won't ever do that for full lib because it's not profitable.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 10, 2021)

I'm confused. You *do* get a 4 horns patch according to the list.


----------



## AEF (Sep 10, 2021)

Sounds like things were purposely stripped (layers, RR, legato scripting) to get the ram footprint down, and as a result it lacks any of the great sound from the libraries it is born out of.

BBCSO sound-wise is far far better than this.


----------



## JTB (Sep 10, 2021)

If it keeps OT in business, I'm all for it. As long as they are still around in 10 years to update Sine and CAPSULE when Microsoft decide to destroy my PC with an update, I'm cool with it.


----------



## chrisav (Sep 10, 2021)

AEF said:


> Sounds like things were purposely stripped (layers, RR, legato scripting) to get the ram footprint down, and as a result it lacks any of the great sound from the libraries it is born out of.
> 
> BBCSO sound-wise is far far better than this.


Did they not specifically say that they kept all dynamic layers and RRs from the full versions?


----------



## robgb (Sep 10, 2021)

Virtuoso said:


> How is this legal?


I don't believe there are any federal laws regarding refunds (in the US at least), but some states might have them. Check with your state. I don't know if a company located in another country is bound by that law, however. I doubt it.

That said, there's a website that consults with software developers on how best to run their business, and this is what he says regarding refunds. Unfortunately, very few sample library developers heed this advice:

"I encourage you to provide refunds on digital products. They not only help protect your customers, but they do have some often overlooked benefits for your business:


Having a fair and reasonable refund policy can help you stand out from your competitors that don’t offer refunds.
I’ll bet part of what drives you as a business owner is providing high-quality products to your customers while making a profit. Knowing that customers can, and will, request a refund for subpar products might be the extra motivation you need to crank through that latest new product or extra feature.
Providing customers with a hassle-free refund experience means the customer will walk away feeling good about your swift handling of the situation, and it will reflect positively on your business (there’s no better advertising than word-of-mouth advertising!). Because of a satisfactory outcome, they may return in the future if their needs change."


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 10, 2021)

AEF said:


> Sounds like things were purposely stripped (layers, RR, legato scripting) to get the ram footprint down, and as a result it lacks any of the great sound from the libraries it is born out of.
> 
> BBCSO sound-wise is far far better than this.


No dynamics or RRs were stripped. In fact, dynamics were ADDED for the brass. Apart from articulation choices, the sound is not inferior to the libraries they were born out of at all. It’s the same, or in many cases better, IMO - especially the brass, which has the new fff layer that was not in the original BB.


----------



## robgb (Sep 10, 2021)

MaxOctane said:


> Does this lib have anything at all to do with Berklee? I get the reason for co-branding, but usually there is *some* connection. HZ really did provide specs and a vision for his strings library. BBCSO really was recorded in BBC's hall. And so forth.
> 
> This really feels like OT is just slapping Berklee's name on this.


I believe Berklee worked with OT in order to provide their students will an all-around orchestral library.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 10, 2021)

AEF said:


> Sounds like things were purposely stripped (layers, RR, legato scripting) to get the ram footprint down, and as a result it lacks any of the great sound from the libraries it is born out of.
> 
> BBCSO sound-wise is far far better than this.


There are *more* dynamic layers in this release. It comes across as though you look for reasons to complain in OT threads whether those reasons are there or not


----------



## robgb (Sep 10, 2021)

Marlon Brown said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I don't think the demos sound good.


I thought the brass and woodwinds were nice. The strings sounded almost synthetic (yes, I said it!) however. But not in a displeasing way, in my opinion. I like their presence.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 10, 2021)

Andreas Bjorck said:


> No dynamics or RRs were stripped. In fact, dynamics were ADDED for the brass. Apart from articulation choices, the sound is not inferior to the libraries they were born out of at all. It’s the same, or in many cases better, IMO - especially the brass, which has the new fff layer that was not in the original BB.


But it does have stripped down legato options, and only a single mic mix.


----------



## dcoscina (Sep 10, 2021)

robgb said:


> I thought the brass and woodwinds were nice. The strings sounded almost synthetic (yes, I said it!) however. But not in a displeasing way, in my opinion. I like their presence.


Agreed. I like both libraries because they have different qualities (I own enough OT stuff, and I own BBCSO).


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 10, 2021)

robgb said:


> I thought the brass and woodwinds were nice. The strings sounded almost synthetic (yes, I said it!) however. But not in a displeasing way, in my opinion. I like their presence.


Strings seem to be the most cut down in terms of articulations, which is a shame. I think the woodwinds come with legato runs and some longer shorts which were cut from the strings.


----------



## Aldunate (Sep 10, 2021)

I know I've posted this many times.
But are they going to give support for Notation software?
I mean, it's literally a Library for Music students. I've looked at the software they make you buy to study at Berklee, and there's Sibelius.
I'm now using Dorico and VSL as Spitfire offer mappings to that software.


----------



## AEF (Sep 10, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> There are *more* dynamic layers in this release. It comes across as though you look for reasons to complain in OT threads whether those reasons are there or not


And you love to fluff for them. The white knight to their rescue.

It sounds pretty mediocre from the demos. OT just hasnt figured out how to do a decent legato yet.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 10, 2021)

AEF said:


> And you love to fluff for them. The white knight to their rescue.
> 
> It sounds pretty mediocre from the demos. OT just hasnt figured out how to do a decent legato yet.


I haven't said anything untrue. I've expressed my actual lived experiences with their products. You expressed something untrue in this thread and broke forum rules AND complained about an issue entirely unrelated to the topic of the thread in Commercial Announcements...more than once. Our behaviors are not analogous.


----------



## MaxOctane (Sep 10, 2021)

@AEF and @Casiquire, this is not a Commercial Announcements thread. I created this thread in Sample Talk for some more critical discussion.

I don't understand why these threads have to get even the slightest bit personal, though. I see nothing in this thread that's any sort of "unfair" bias. Just opinions, which is what we're here for.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

They seem to be more or less the same as OT's introductory Berlin Inspire libraries. Any differences between the two? In any case, there seems to be no new sample recordings.


----------



## MaxOctane (Sep 10, 2021)

RedDot said:


> They seem to be more or less the same as OT's introductory Berlin Inspire libraries. Any differences between the two? In any case, there seems to be no new sample recordings.


Inspire (which sounds great) has pre-orchestrated patches like High-String 8vas, Low-String 8vas, Flaut Str + Woods, Flute+Clarinet 8va, and so on. Not suitable for "proper" orchestration.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

I agree that it's more appopriate for scoring and (Berklee's) educational purposes. This said, in terms of available articulations and mics they seem at a quick glance to be in the same ball park.


----------



## mybadmemory (Sep 10, 2021)

RedDot said:


> They seem to be more or less the same as OT's introductory Berlin Inspire libraries. Any differences between the two? In any case, there seems to be no new sample recordings.


Quite different. Inspire is combined ensembles and a just a few select solo instruments, very basic articulations, and much less depth in sampling. This is all sections and soloists sampled individually, more articulations, and much deeper sampling.


----------



## Getsumen (Sep 10, 2021)

AEF said:


> Sounds like things were purposely stripped (layers, RR, legato scripting) to get the ram footprint down, and as a result it lacks any of the great sound from the libraries it is born out of.
> 
> BBCSO sound-wise is far far better than this.


No dynamic layers or RR's were stripped. It would make little sense for them to do that for RAM considering the whole point of SINE and capsule is that you can do it yourself.


----------



## TintoL (Sep 10, 2021)

I didn't expect this one at all. When I got the email in my phone while I was in the park, I was like... whaat... whennnn,.... when did they get this done...? I mean, Spitfire is obviously struggling to record Abbey road one....

Then I got it....

Man, this is such a "compress re-package". From the business point of view is brilliant. But, I do find is badly executed. 1 mic, taken from berlin series and with limited articulations, and call it a collaboration.... Obviously the marketing, to me, it's students. Just so you get a ready to go full mixed package.

But, how do this guys find $1000 usd ($1260 Cad) student accessible?

Love OT stuff. But, this mix mic repackaging things is just going too far. You guys are stretching too far your customers and market.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 10, 2021)

TintoL said:


> I didn't expect this one at all. When I got the email in my phone while I was in the park, I was like... whaat... whennnn,.... when did they get this done...? I mean, Spitfire is obviously struggling to record Abbey road one....
> 
> Then I got it....
> 
> ...


Yeah seems like the single mic is becoming a common thing everyone is mentioning. The single mic really limits the libraries use and the stripped back legatos and limited articulations in the strings make the library not that great a proposition at its price range with many better options available.


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 10, 2021)

TintoL said:


> I didn't expect this one at all. When I got the email in my phone while I was in the park, I was like... whaat... whennnn,.... when did they get this done...? I mean, Spitfire is obviously struggling to record Abbey road one....
> 
> Then I got it....
> 
> ...


You’re forgetting to factor in the educational discount. It’s more like $600 USD. But it does seem like there should be more mics. If you wait until BBCSO is on sale you can get Pro at the same price and Core (which Berlin Orchestra basically is) for $350 less.

It seems like it just comes down to whether you think the sound and sampling is worth an extra $350 as a student. Unless you can get the educational discount it doesn’t seem worth it.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 10, 2021)

pandamacion said:


> You’re forgetting to factor in the educational discount. It’s more like $600 USD. But it does seem like there should be more mics. If you wait until BBCSO is on sale you can get Pro at the same price and Core (which Berlin Orchestra basically is) for $350 less.
> 
> It seems like it just comes down to whether you think the sound and sampling is worth an extra $350 as a student. Unless you can get the educational discount it doesn’t seem worth it.


I think its pretty pricey even with the 40% student discount. Comes out at 611 Euro with the student discount.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

I find that the lack of other mics is the biggest sore thumb, and I don't understand why they did it in the first place.


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 10, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> I think its pretty pricey even with the 40% student discount. Comes out at 611 Euro with the student discount.


Are you in the EU? I imagine it’s worse if you have to include the VAT.

I just realized that Spitfire is running their Education Sale so BBCSO Pro is the same price as Berlin Orchestra right now.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 10, 2021)

pandamacion said:


> Are you in the EU? I imagine it’s worse if you have to include the VAT.
> 
> I just realized that Spitfire is running their Education Sale so BBCSO Pro is the same price as Berlin Orchestra right now.


I'm UK so get 20% added VAT on top. Makes it pretty expensive even with the OT 40% student discount.


----------



## Soundbed (Sep 10, 2021)

... came to learn about the library, skimmed several pages of negativity (both this and the commercial thread) ... phew


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 10, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> I'm UK so get 20% added VAT on top. Makes it pretty expensive even with the OT 40% student discount.


20%! That’s crazy. That’s an extra 100€. Do I have that right or am I doing the maths wrong? I added the “s” onto math for you.


----------



## Michael Antrum (Sep 10, 2021)

That's right. In the UK the library would cost you just a shade under 780 euros at the intro price (or approx £ 665.00)


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

In euros and with 20% VAT, the cost of the library with the educational discount would amount to: ~611€.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 10, 2021)

The library isn't for me either. I don't think we're the target audience. I think Berklee students are the target (captive) audience, so the balance is more about their benefit than ours. As a student i can see how extra mic options would not only be a distraction from learning orchestration but probably detrimental to understanding the balance of the orchestra too. It's not for us, so no wonder we're scratching our heads


----------



## richhickey (Sep 10, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> ... came to learn about the library, skimmed several pages of negativity (both this and the commercial thread) ... phew


Yeah. So many people want cheap, hastily produced, and largely disposable libraries from every release from every company. There are plenty of them already.

This library is for composition students. They don't need many mics (nor does this have "one mic", it has one mix), since they are just writing, not producing or getting director signoffs, and just need to hear what they wrote. They need all the instruments to learn orchestration. Check. They'd like to write at realistically varied dynamics. Check. They'd like it to sound good. Check. It would be nice if it was seamlessly situated in the same space as more expensive professional libraries if they want to go further. Many checks. I don't know of a single library that hits these marks better. I would have killed for something like this when I was a comp major at Berklee (before MIDI times .

As for the price, at anything less than $1k composition students are spending far less than any other Berklee performance major does _for every single instrument they play_. The whole OT Berlin Suite costs about the same as one nice guitar/average sax.

How do people expect these companies to stay in business? They can either frequently produce many cheap/small/abandoned things or less frequently produce more expensive complex/deep/supported things. I'm glad VSL/OT/Audiobro et al are still doing the latter.

I think they hit it out of the park with this and it's certainly cheap at the initial discounted price.

I do agree that, as a full Berlin Suite owner, I'd want this, at an extremely discounted price, since we've been waiting for years without an update and it would make a good writing tool (who knew?)


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

richhickey said:


> I do agree that, as a full Berlin Suite owner, I'd want this, at an extremely discounted price, since we've been waiting for years without an update and it would make a good writing tool (who knew?)


As a full Berlin Series owner, you don't need this library at all. You already own every single sound of Berlin Orchestra, and much much more.


----------



## RSK (Sep 10, 2021)

If I was just starting out, instead of a couple years in with significant investment in other libraries, this would jump near the top of a very short list.


----------



## PaulieDC (Sep 10, 2021)

As an online student I wondered what the Berklee connection was, then I saw the video. The head chair of orchestration set out to commission a library company to give the Orchestration students a full and complete library that has great selection of instruments (i.e. 3 different trumpets plus ensemble) with a great sound and excellent dynamic layers. That explains the new 40% EDU discount that OT started offering not that long ago. Like others said, Mic positions were passed over for sound quality, some decent articulations, instrument choice and dynamic layers. That explains it's price so given BBCSO Pro is $999, it not overpriced, especially for the Berlin sound. But this probably isn't a library for the seasoned pro to add to their arsenal. Great choice for students and those starting out. One thing the Berklee narrator said: "Designed to run on a laptop". Well. There it is.

So as the Irish cops used to say in NYC back in the day, "OK folks, the show's over, clear da corner, everybody keep it moving".


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

RSK said:


> If I was just starting out, instead of a couple years in with significant investment in other libraries, this would jump near the top of a very short list.


For anyone just starting out, I think that Spitfire Audio's BBCSO is a better choice.


----------



## RSK (Sep 10, 2021)

RedDot said:


> For anyone just starting out, I think that Spitfire Audio's BBCSO is a better choice.


BBCSO Pro would also be on that short list; they are similarly priced with Pro offering more mic selections. However, there is no accounting for taste and these two sound different. 

You also need to account for the different approaches in building sections. Spitfire gives you horn sections, they don't give you four individual horns. The library you would want in that situation depends on your preferred workflow.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 10, 2021)

RedDot said:


> For anyone just starting out, I think that Spitfire Audio's BBCSO is a better choice.


I agree, I also think that for anyone starting out BBCSO Pro is probably a better choice. I also think BBCSO Pro is much more than just a new starters library and is up their and in many ways better than some of the full on dedicated and more detailed libraries. its a great foundation and good basis to build on and you get all the flexibility of the mics, it's not redundant when you start adding some extra libraries and tools. I cant see that in this new Berlin Orchestra purely due to the none flexibility of no mic options and more limited articulations.


----------



## dcoscina (Sep 10, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> ... came to learn about the library, skimmed several pages of negativity (both this and the commercial thread) ... phew


sadly yeah.... funny how BBC is now lauded when once there was no end of bitching about it. I mean, I'm glad it's being embraced because there's a lot of quality there. 

This forum seems to always need a developer to vilify. I think there's some unknown wheel of misfortune that gets spun... who will it land on next month? Who can say?

Sigh....


----------



## Rudianos (Sep 10, 2021)

Can see this library helping fund the rest of the development and provide students a solid palette. All I hope is that they do that 50% off sale of the Berlin series again like last year. Wasn't ready last year - but now I am. If not. Ill wait.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 10, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> sadly yeah.... funny how BBC is now lauded when once there was no end of bitching about it. I mean, I'm glad it's being embraced because there's a lot of quality there.
> 
> This forum seems to always need a developer to vilify. I think there's some unknown wheel of misfortune that gets spun... who will it land on next month? Who can say?
> 
> Sigh....


BBCSO did have quite a few issues on its release and the initial string legatos I found rubbish. The legato update to strings really improved the library for me.


----------



## dcoscina (Sep 10, 2021)

RSK said:


> BBCSO Pro would also be on that short list; they are similarly priced with Pro offering more mic selections. However, there is no accounting for taste and these two sound different.
> 
> You also need to account for the different approaches in building sections. Spitfire gives you horn sections, they don't give you four individual horns. The library you would want in that situation depends on your preferred workflow.


yes. If one is writing mock ups in a DAW, BBC is great. If they are trying to compose in Dorico or Sibelius using the traditional sections/instruments from an orchestra, I can see Berklee being better suited to it. Really depends on what the end goal is. It's a good bet the Berklee students also have access to a real orchestra so their mock ups need to be comprised of a closer approximation of resources... but I don't know for sure. 

Do I want this library? Yes. I'd love it for Laptop composing. Do I wish it were cheaper? For me, selfishly yes. Do I understand why it's priced the way it is? Yes. As someone said earlier, these companies have tremendous overhead costs including recording, musicians, editing and salaried staff. Plus maintaining facilities. And heaven forbid, they are also trying to be profitable. This isn't the non-profit orchestral library.


----------



## dcoscina (Sep 10, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> BBCSO did have quite a few issues on its release and the initial string legatos I found rubbish. The legato update to strings really improved the library for me.


yes credit to Spitfire for aggressively providing updates. My initial review of the library was lukewarm as well. but it's really gotten better. I think it's worth affording OT the same latitude with their recent release too.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 10, 2021)

I'm not so sure. If I'm a college student i want to be able to quickly export my midi and throw it into the DAW and expect it to play back in time. I've read that BBCSO has inconsistent shorts. I do think the strings are utterly fantastic though in BBCSO. In the context of being a student though I'm not sure that's enough to sway me.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> This forum seems to always need a developer to vilify.


Every criticism I've seen on this thread is perfectly reasonable. No one vilified OT, everyone's expressing their judgement on a commercial product (as potential buyers.)


----------



## Aldunate (Sep 10, 2021)

I can't stress this enough. If you are a student of Music and using samples you are using notation software.
Arent these guys aware, after so much talking with Berklee, that they should implement mappings for notation software.


----------



## Getsumen (Sep 10, 2021)

Aldunate said:


> I can't stress this enough. If you are a student of Music and using samples you are using notation software.
> Arent these guys aware, after so much talking with Berklee, that they should implement mappings for notation software.


No idea how notation software works, but if they're anything like expression maps can't you just make those yourself pretty quickly? Every instrument group has identical articulations and mapping more or less. Should be like a 5 minute thing if the process is similar to mappings for DAWs

Besides I think the staffpad libs are probably the OT offering for notation stuff


----------



## richhickey (Sep 10, 2021)

RedDot said:


> As a full Berlin Series owner, you don't need this library at all. You already own every single sound of Berlin Orchestra, and much much more.


I have longstanding unfixed problems with Capsule, so no. I'm actually not going to use Berlin again until it's in Sine and getting active dev.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

In Dorico at least, expression maps are just XML files... It's not that hard to make your own.


----------



## Aldunate (Sep 10, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> No idea how notation software works, but if they're anything like expression maps can't you just make those yourself pretty quickly? Every instrument group has identical articulations and mapping more or less. Should be like a 5 minute thing if the process is similar to mappings for DAWs
> 
> Besides I think the staffpad libs are probably the OT offering for notation stuff


Don't you think for 800 euros they should provide official ones?
More so, if it's for School that relies on that software and even make you buy it.
Take a look at Berklee software requirements.
Also they are borderly illegal.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

richhickey said:


> I have longstanding unfixed problems with Capsule, so no. I'm actually not going to use Berlin again until it's in Sine and getting active dev.


I feel you, and I'm waiting for the SINE port of the Berlin Series too... But this isn't it.


----------



## MaxOctane (Sep 10, 2021)

RedDot said:


> Every criticism I've seen on this thread is perfectly reasonable. No one vilified OT, everyone's expressing their judgement on a commercial product (as potential buyers.)


Totally. I love OT, have given them thousands of dollars, and will hand over another pile of money when they release Berlin Strings on SINE. 

That said, I do find the "Berklee" thing weird. I mean, even in this thread people are talking like this library is somehow targeted and custom-made for a thousand students in one school in Boston. It's really not. That's just the power of co-branding and marketing seeping into people's brains. Like how people thought BHCT was somehow especially super-great for 1950s film scores (it's really not).

At any rate, I feel weird getting annoyed by this minor point. So I'll end it on a positive note:

_The low brass in the Walkthrough video was sooo tasty!_


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 10, 2021)

RedDot said:


> I find that the lack of other mics is the biggest sore thumb, and I don't understand why they did it in the first place.


Also seems counterintuitive from an academic standpoint. 

I have no idea what Berklee’s curriculum is, but if i was a student I’d definitely want to learn about different mic positions and what they do. 

Much like if I were a teacher, I’d want to teach my students those things as well. I mean, what better way (aside from the real deal) than to use a sample library for demonstrating the differences in mic placement?

This product doesn’t even go into that territory though. 

My best guess is that they just wanted a simplified library that’s easy on resources. Stripping the mics will definitely achieve that.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 10, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> It's not for us, so no wonder we're scratching our heads


I’d love for OT to include that in their commercial announcement thread.

“Dear VI-C members,

This library is not for you, but please buy it anyway.”


----------



## richhickey (Sep 10, 2021)

RedDot said:


> I feel you, and I'm waiting for the SINE port of the Berlin Series too... But this isn't it.


Surely it _is_, a subset of, it. And unlike BBCSO Core vs Pro, it is a better writing/laptop subset due to the complete set of instruments. And BBCSO Core as laptop/writing-subset for BBCSO Pro users is touted as a feature. Thus this is as interesting for full Berlin Series owners, for the same reasons.


----------



## richhickey (Sep 10, 2021)

Everyone understands BBCSO Core (one mic mix) and BBCSO Pro (many), and this will have the same relationship with Berlin Series Full, which is undoubtedly coming. So more mics and articulations will be available, for more money, same deal. The confusion is strictly down to the price. There's more content here than BBCSO Core, and the Full Berlin Series has way more content than BBCSO Pro. So both are at higher price points.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 10, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Also seems counterintuitive from an academic standpoint.
> 
> I have no idea what Berklee’s curriculum is, but if i was a student I’d definitely want to learn about different mic positions and what they do.
> 
> ...


Absolutely agree with this. The mixing side of things is covered in most university curriculum on both orchestration and music courses so it does seem counterintuitive to me as well.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

richhickey said:


> Surely it _is_, a subset of, it. And unlike BBCSO Core vs Pro, it is a better writing/laptop subset due to the complete set of instruments. And BBCSO Core as laptop/writing-subset for BBCSO Pro users is touted as a feature. Thus this is as interesting for full Berlin Series owners, for the same reasons.


I disagree, this library is derived from the Berlin Series but only for the express purposes of Berklee's (and other) undergraduate programs... I don't see it at all as the Berlin Series "Core" to a forthcoming Berlin Series "Pro" (for SINE.)


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 10, 2021)

RedDot said:


> I disagree, this library is derived from the Berlin Series but only for the express purposes of Berklee's (and other) undergraduate programs... I don't see it at all as the Berlin Series "Core" to a forthcoming Berlin Series "Pro" (for SINE.)


With the upgrade paths i think it's closer to a closed-ecosystem version of VSL's special edition bundles. Start with the essentials then get a discount off the full libraries.


----------



## TintoL (Sep 10, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> at its price range with many better options available.


Exactly the point. At this price, there's simply better options. Even with separated modules.



pandamacion said:


> You’re forgetting to factor in the educational discount.


Ahhhh, riiight. That is true. I did forget about that.

But, as other people commented here after my comment, also other developers have student discounts. And comparing apples with apples, it's still quite expensive for such a strip down version.

My point here is that we all as users, vote with our wallet. What I mean is that, if we buy this strip down versions at these prices, the market will simply re-adjust to give you THIS type of products at THIS prices.

Plus the fact we are talking about euros. In USD it translate to way more, and in CAD is insane.
I remember when spitfire was pricing their products in British pounds. That practically double the price of the products for Canadians. But they adjusted that and now is in USD which is a smart business move.

Anyways, sounds like I am bashing OT. I have their products, their top of the line and those are exactly that, Top of the line. But this is priced as top of the line, and honestly looks too striped down for such a price. Plus, there is no new material, is based on baking down other library mixes. Which brings the cost of the library production way down.


----------



## Toecutter (Sep 10, 2021)

From an educational standpoint, I think Berklee should have included at least one close microphone. I assume their curriculum includes advanced blending techniques, template balancing... I can see a student doing an internship and having no idea how to properly balance libraries if all they know is the default tree mic.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Sep 10, 2021)

I've seen a few comments re. how OT needs to recoup creation costs, which of course is totally fair, but keep in mind, this library is just a re-package of _existing_ samples (outside of the FFF layer for brass). There was some clean-up and editing needed, but they were doing that already for the SINE migration - in general, overhead costs should be very, very low. If anything, it is a bit disappointing that owners of the full libraries are not getting the SINE improvements / clean up first and instead, those upgrades are reserved (currently) for new users of a new product. Hopefully, the SINE versions of the full libraries are coming out ASAP.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> With the upgrade paths i think it's closer to a closed-ecosystem version of VSL's special edition bundles. Start with the essentials then get a discount off the full libraries.


Yeah, I've just read on their website their promise of "qualifying for special pricing" on the main Berlin Series libraries ... It could be worth it to anyone who doesn't already own Berlin Series for Kontakt (these will always have the option of cross-grading.)


----------



## RSK (Sep 10, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> If anything, it is a bit disappointing that owners of the full libraries are not getting the SINE improvements / clean up first and instead, those upgrades are reserved (currently) for new users of a new product. Hopefully, the SINE versions of the full libraries are coming out ASAP.


Actually, I would see this as an encouraging sign that the Sine versions of the Berlin library are imminent. This is a pared-down version of those, so of course it came out first.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 10, 2021)

RSK said:


> Actually, I would see this as an encouraging sign that the Sine versions of the Berlin library are imminent. This is a pared-down version of those, so of course it came out first.


I was really hoping that would be the case, and some comments in the Commercial forum indicated as much. It also made me wonder if they're trying to drop the whole orchestra in SINE all at once for some reason. It would explain the long wait and it kind of indicates that there might be a bigger picture that we don't know about just yet


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Sep 10, 2021)

RSK said:


> Actually, I would see this as an encouraging sign that the Sine versions of the Berlin library are imminent. This is a pared-down version of those, so of course it came out first.


OT has said they are coming very soon, so hope that means in the next couple of weeks (and not months).


----------



## Trash Panda (Sep 10, 2021)

For those who somehow think the price isn’t absurd for a repackaging of an older library with a few new samples recorded:
€659 Intro price = $778 USD
€859 regular price = $1k USD

Hollywood Orchestra Opus Gold = $695
Hollywood Orchestra Opus Diamond = $795

So for a similar/lower price you can get equal or more value for another repackaged product with a few face lifts. OT’s pricing is just as absurd as EW’s upgrade pricing.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 10, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> For those who somehow think the price isn’t absurd for a repackaging of an older library with a few new samples recorded:
> €659 Intro price = $778 USD
> €859 regular price = $1k USD
> 
> ...


Not a fair comparison. With OPUS you can score blockbuster soundtracks within seconds.


----------



## JF (Sep 10, 2021)

So are the new FFF Berlin Brass layers in this collection?


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 10, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> Absolutely agree with this. The mixing side of things is covered in most university curriculum on both orchestration and music courses so it does seem counterintuitive to me as well.


No one has said this is the only sample library film scoring students at Berklee use/will be using, or are taught. They also use libraries from Spitfire, Cinesamples - all with multiple mics. So don’t worry - the Berklee students will learn about mic positions! 


Toecutter said:


> From an educational standpoint, I think Berklee should have included at least one close microphone. I assume their curriculum includes advanced blending techniques, template balancing... I can see a student doing an internship and having no idea how to properly balance libraries if all they know is the default tree mic.


We have many, many other libraries at Berklee that we can use to teach the students about blending techniques and balancing and mixing with mic positions - including everyone’s favorite Spitfire libraries, Cinesamples, etc. 
This library plays a very important role as the students’ main library for their composing, and entryway into the world of orchestral samples.


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 10, 2021)

MaxOctane said:


> like this library is somehow targeted and custom-made for a thousand students in one school in Boston. It's really not.


But…it really is. I promise you!


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 10, 2021)

richhickey said:


> Yeah. So many people want cheap, hastily produced, and largely disposable libraries from every release from every company. There are plenty of them already.
> 
> This library is for composition students. They don't need many mics (nor does this have "one mic", it has one mix), since they are just writing, not producing or getting director signoffs, and just need to hear what they wrote. They need all the instruments to learn orchestration. Check. They'd like to write at realistically varied dynamics. Check. They'd like it to sound good. Check. It would be nice if it was seamlessly situated in the same space as more expensive professional libraries if they want to go further. Many checks. I don't know of a single library that hits these marks better. I would have killed for something like this when I was a comp major at Berklee (before MIDI times .
> 
> ...


You make an amazing amount of sense, and a lot of good points. Thank you.


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 10, 2021)

Aldunate said:


> Don't you think for 800 euros they should provide official ones?
> More so, if it's for School that relies on that software and even make you buy it.
> Take a look at Berklee software requirements.
> Also they are borderly illegal.


That’s not how the film- and game scoring students at Berklee will be using this library. Nor are they required to purchase Sibelius (not sure where you have that from). We don’t use notation software in this way. The Berklee students will be using this - like they use other orchestral sample libraries too - to produce orchestral sequences, in their DAW. 

Not quite sure what about any of this is illegal… 🤔


----------



## Laptoprabbit (Sep 10, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I've seen a few comments re. how OT needs to recoup creation costs, which of course is totally fair, but keep in mind, this library is just a re-package of _existing_ samples (outside of the FFF layer for brass). There was some clean-up and editing needed, but they were doing that already for the SINE migration - in general, overhead costs should be very, very low. If anything, it is a bit disappointing that owners of the full libraries are not getting the SINE improvements / clean up first and instead, those upgrades are reserved (currently) for new users of a new product. Hopefully, the SINE versions of the full libraries are coming out ASAP.


Agree. This is priced like new recordings, and if we accept this behavior without at least raising an eyebrow, it will be encouraged. Sure, Berklee students may derive additional value, but OT is hardly releasing to a market of only Berklee students.

I'm not sure why people get defensive when criticism is leveled at companies -- they are large entities that will survive without excuse-making on their behalf. Negativity for the sake of negativity is not constructive. But fair critique can only be positive for the sample lib industry, which is already anti-consumer in terms of return/trial policy.


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 10, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> But it does have stripped down legato options, and only a single mic mix.


Correct - for the strings for example, there is only one legato “type”. And a single mic mix. All of those things are available in the full Berlin libraries - which this is not.


----------



## holywilly (Sep 10, 2021)

Is the single mic mix the Tree mic from the Berlin series? Or it’s the combination of tree, close, surround?


----------



## Aldunate (Sep 10, 2021)

Andreas Bjorck said:


> That’s not how the film- and game scoring students at Berklee will be using this library. Nor are they required to purchase Sibelius (not sure where you have that from). We don’t use notation software in this way. The Berklee students will be using this - like they use other orchestral sample libraries too - to produce orchestral sequences, in their DAW.
> 
> Not quite sure what about any of this is illegal… 🤔











Core Software | Berklee


All incoming Berklee College of Music students will have a charge for the Core Software Package automatically added to their student account in their first semester. This software is crucial to success as a student at Berklee and as a professional embarking on a career in the music industry.




www.berklee.edu





I don't know what this means then.
It is illegal for _some_ schools to force their students to a brand, I can be way off in both cases.
Peace!


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 10, 2021)

Aldunate said:


> Core Software | Berklee
> 
> 
> All incoming Berklee College of Music students will have a charge for the Core Software Package automatically added to their student account in their first semester. This software is crucial to success as a student at Berklee and as a professional embarking on a career in the music industry.
> ...


There’s no Sibelius listed here, that I can see (Finale is though). And this page is also not applicable to all students or representative of what is required of students in specialized majors like the film and game scoring programs (which is where the connection with OT springs out of). 
it’s possible what you’re saying is the case for some schools, in some countries. Definitely not so here at Berklee, though. 
cheers!


----------



## Aldunate (Sep 10, 2021)

Andreas Bjorck said:


> There’s no Sibelius listed here, that I can see (Finale is though). And this page is also not applicable to all students or representative of what is required of students in specialized majors like the film and game scoring programs (which is where the connection with OT springs out of).
> it’s possible what you’re saying is the case for some schools, in some countries. Definitely not so here at Berklee, though.
> cheers!


Thanks for the clarification!
Here it is illegal almost everywhere to even ask for a specific brand of pencil.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

These are the technology requirements for the undergraduate Film Scoring program at Berklee, including the so-called Orchestral Tools Berklee Bundle (not other sampling libraries are mentioned): https://www.berklee.edu/sts/film-scoring


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 10, 2021)

RedDot said:


> These are the technology requirements for the undergraduate Film Scoring program at Berklee, including the so-called Orchestral Tools Berklee Bundle (not other sampling libraries are mentioned): https://www.berklee.edu/sts/film-scoring


These are the _required_ items film scoring students have to purchase. We have all the major libraries from Spitfire and Cinesamples and others in our labs and classrooms, available for students to work with 7 days a week, and used in our advanced sequencing courses.Trust me. We don’t require that the students purchase the entire catalog of libraries from all of these developers, because what kind of student could afford that?

The reason it’s referred to by that name is because the official name of the library could not be revealed until yesterday, when the library was released.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

Andreas Bjorck said:


> These are the _required_ items film scoring students have to purchase.


You've just confirmed what Aldunate was saying from the start, i.e. that students are force-fed commercial products from particular brands at Berklee. I don't understand why you denied it in the first place, it's clearly true.


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 10, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Is the single mic mix the Tree mic from the Berlin series? Or it’s the combination of tree, close, surround?


A mix of tree and close mics.


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 10, 2021)

RedDot said:


> You've just confirmed what Aldunate was saying from the start, i.e. that students are force-fed commercial products from particular brands at Berklee. I don't understand why you denied it in the first place, it's clearly true.


I don’t know where I’ve denied such a thing at all(?) I just said they’re not required to purchase *Sibelius*, which they aren’t (again - you just have to believe me, I wrote those technology requirements). And of course we’re requiring that students purchase certain software - how else could we ensure consistency and quality in their education and training (or negotiate attractive educational discounts)? We require that they purchase Cubase and Pro Tools, but we also teach them how to use other DAWs. They also get to use software and plugins and libraries from tons of other developers and brands, in addition to the things we require.
We also require that they have a laptop, and decent headphones to mix on - but they also get to record and mix their music using an Avid S6, or a $250k Neve 88RS and ATC mains. They get to do both. Not sure what’s weird or wrong about any of that, or how it’s different from requiring certain textbooks to be purchased…

Just out of curiosity, are you a Berklee student, by any chance?


----------



## Rudianos (Sep 10, 2021)

Aldunate said:


> Core Software | Berklee
> 
> 
> All incoming Berklee College of Music students will have a charge for the Core Software Package automatically added to their student account in their first semester. This software is crucial to success as a student at Berklee and as a professional embarking on a career in the music industry.
> ...


Berklee is a private organization. They can - in the process of making a contract with a student require such purchases. The student in the process of signing the contract weighs the pros and cons. And not being entitled to Berklee's education - can choose to opt out and go somewhere else, or no where at all. I've never heard of any law on the books preventing this - and if it were in a US jurisdiction could be challenged easily. So lay off of Berklee - they are being very clear and up front.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

Here's where you've explicitly denied it:



Andreas Bjorck said:


> it’s possible what you’re saying is the case for some schools, in some countries. Definitely not so here at Berklee, though.



I won't get into moral arguments for or against it, it seems pointless to me in this context.


----------



## axb312 (Sep 10, 2021)

@Andreas Bjorck . I hope you don't take the things we say on here to heart.

It's just that Spitfire seemingly had the right idea with BBCSO core being an affordable starter library with one mic mix, a good amount of articulations and sufficient dynamic layers and RRs. And it was recorded from the ground up. 

Whereas OT has been making bank on the Teldex stage and the costs of doing things in Germany for several years already, it feels unfair that they release their seemingly "starter" version of an "orchestra in a box" at such a high price. It seems like OT is staying relatively greedy, even in these difficult times. 

Also, the OT strings fast Legato were decently capable of fast passages if I recall correctly. Shame it was not included.

At 400 or so USD, this would have been great value for money, an allowed so many people to experience the great sounding stage at Teldex at their fingers.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 10, 2021)

Aldunate said:


> Core Software | Berklee
> 
> 
> All incoming Berklee College of Music students will have a charge for the Core Software Package automatically added to their student account in their first semester. This software is crucial to success as a student at Berklee and as a professional embarking on a career in the music industry.
> ...


Wait until you hear about America's textbook industry


----------



## Aldunate (Sep 10, 2021)

Rudianos said:


> Berklee is a private organization. They can - in the process of making a contract with a student require such purchases. The student in the process of signing the contract weighs the pros and cons. And not being entitled to Berklee's education - can choose to opt out and go somewhere else, or no where at all. I've never heard of any law on the books preventing this - and if it were in a US jurisdiction could be challenged easily. So lay off of Berklee - they are being very clear and up front.


They are upfront, never said that they weren't. 
I have seen laws preventing this though.


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 10, 2021)

RedDot said:


> Here's where you've explicitly denied it:
> 
> 
> 
> I won't get into moral arguments for or against it, it seems pointless to me in this conte


Oh, sorry - you misunderstood what I meant, or maybe I was unclear. I was referring to Aldonate's comment about it being illegal for schools to "force" students to purchase certain brands. And that is definitely not the case for Berklee - a private organization located in the US.

I have never denied that we require students to purchase certain software. That would be an incredibly strange thing for me to do, since I've been part of writing the requirements, that are publicly available for all students, and the whole world (and RedDot) to see.


----------



## Rudianos (Sep 10, 2021)

RedDot said:


> Here's where you've explicitly denied it:
> 
> 
> 
> I won't get into moral arguments for or against it, it seems pointless to me in this context.


thats not what he said ... "it’s possible what you’re saying is the case for some schools, in some countries. Definitely not so here at Berklee, though." and the immediate post he was replying to was
"It is illegal for _some_ schools to force their students to a brand, I can be way off in both cases.
Peace!"

Thus implying that there are no laws against such practices at Berklee. Certainly nothing indication your point Mr. Red Dot.


----------



## novaburst (Sep 10, 2021)

Virtuoso said:


> I see they're still brazenly plugging the non-functional mic merge feature. Disgraceful.


----------



## Rudianos (Sep 10, 2021)

Partnerships are a very good thing. While I am waiting for the full SINE release of Berlin everything ... It is nice to see musicians working together. The demos sound great. But I need my mics! If someone gets this on the forum please put up some non doctored demos.


----------



## Getsumen (Sep 10, 2021)

This thread has turned into a very strange discussion...


Henrik B. Jensen said:


> “Several pages of negativity” - I wonder if we’ve read the same two threads at all.


Still wondering? xD


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 10, 2021)

Andreas Bjorck said:


> Correct - for the strings for example, there is only one legato “type”. And a single mic mix. All of those things are available in the full Berlin libraries - which this is not.


And unfortunately for me that makes it a rather limited library, especially considering its price in comparison to other available options.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 10, 2021)

axb312 said:


> @Andreas Bjorck . I hope you don't take the things we say on here to heart.
> 
> It's just that Spitfire seemingly had the right idea with BBCSO core being an affordable starter library with one mic mix, a good amount of articulations and sufficient dynamic layers and RRs. And it was recorded from the ground up.
> 
> ...


it is unfortunate that the fast legato was not included, as well as a few mics.


----------



## Gene Pool (Sep 10, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Also seems counterintuitive from an academic standpoint.
> 
> I have no idea what Berklee’s curriculum is, but if i was a student I’d definitely want to learn about different mic positions and what they do.





Toecutter said:


> From an educational standpoint, I think Berklee should have included at least one close microphone. I assume their curriculum includes advanced blending techniques, template balancing... I can see a student doing an internship and having no idea how to properly balance libraries if all they know is the default tree mic.



Berklee has been teaching about multiple mic positions since at least as far back as they began offering their original Music Production and Engineering degree program decades ago, way before there were DAWs and samples and the like. They've got it covered very well—in-house, hands-on, with state-of-the-art audio facilities—and do note require this library for that purpose, as it is intended for a different one.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Wait until you hear about America's textbook industry


Wait until you hear about America's student loan industry.


----------



## Trash Panda (Sep 10, 2021)

RedDot said:


> Wait until you hear about America's student loan industry.


Wait until you hear about America’s debt collection industry.


----------



## robgb (Sep 10, 2021)

I prefer a single mic. But only if it's close and dry. Or at least dry.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

Andreas Bjorck said:


> Oh, sorry - you misunderstood what I meant, or maybe I was unclear. I was referring to Aldonate's comment about it being illegal for schools to "force" students to purchase certain brands. And that is definitely not the case for Berklee - a private organization located in the US.
> 
> I have never denied that we require students to purchase certain software. That would be an incredibly strange thing for me to do, since I've been part of writing the requirements, that are publicly available for all students, and the whole world (and RedDot) to see.


Thanks for clarifying this point for me: Berklee does indeed force it, but it's not illegal.


----------



## Gene Pool (Sep 10, 2021)

RedDot said:


> You've just confirmed what Aldunate was saying from the start, i.e. that students are force-fed commercial products from particular brands at Berklee.


As enrollment at Berklee is voluntary, no one is being "force-fed" anything. Unless, say, being required to purchase a certain edition of _The Rite of Spring_ for an orchestration class also counts as being "force-fed," or for that matter being required to take an orchestration class in the first place is likewise being "force-fed." Perhaps having to attend class, do recitals, and develop a portfolio is yet another burdensome indignity.

Berklee students are there to learn; not to bitch and whine like a bunch of entitled, presumptuous brats who talk out of their ass like it's going out of style and fall apart every time the Universe doesn't align with the precious desires of their heart; that's for internet forums.


----------



## Trash Panda (Sep 10, 2021)

Is the concept of universities requiring students to purchase specific resources (books, software, etc.) for the courses taken not normal outside of the U.S? Hell, professors LOVE to force their classes to buy their shitty textbooks/novels for their classes.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> As enrollment at Berklee is voluntary, no one is being "force-fed" anything. Unless, say, being required to purchase a certain edition of _The Rite of Spring_ for an orchestration class also counts as being "force-fed," or for that matter being required to take an orchestration class in the first place is likewise being "force-fed." Perhaps having to attend class, do recitals, and develop a portfolio is yet another burdensome indignity.
> 
> Berklee students are there to learn; not to bitch and whine like a bunch of entitled, presumptuous brats who talk out of their ass like it's going out of style and fall apart every time the Universe doesn't align with the precious desires of their heart; that's for internet forums.


They're forced to purchase commercial products of particular brands, as such they're indeed force-fed those products.


----------



## Rudianos (Sep 10, 2021)

RedDot said:


> They're forced to purchase commercial products of particular brands, as such they're indeed force-fed those products.


You cannot be forced and be somewhere voluntarily - those cannot exist in the same situation. You might be getting hooked into the potential bias of an instructor or institution. Quite unavoidable in human interaction.


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 10, 2021)

RedDot said:


> They're forced to purchase commercial products of particular brands, as such they're indeed force-fed those products.


Yes - and? I’m just trying to follow your thought process and/or the trip you’re on here. Just out of curiosity, what would the alternative look like? How would you teach students how to use, say, Pro Tools, without having them actually have Pro Tools? 
Also, you should ask some Berklee students whether they are angry and upset about being “force-fed” some of the most powerful software and plugins and sample libraries on the market for very affordable prices (look at the total bundle price on the page you copy/pasted earlier, and then look up the retail price of all those software items…).


----------



## MaxOctane (Sep 10, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Wait until you hear about America’s debt collection industry.


Wait until you hear about America


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

I was replying to:



Gene Pool said:


> As enrollment at Berklee is voluntary, no one is being "force-fed" anything.


----------



## MaxOctane (Sep 10, 2021)

It is probably a futile plea, but might I kindly ask that we drop the topic of whether Berklee imposes certain software or not? @Andreas Bjorck is a new member here, and while we are all here for vigorous discussion, topic such as this are distasteful when they are personal -- and Andreas was personally involved in this library. Let's welcome Andreas with positivity.

(I'm still sad we don't have the pleasure and honor of rctec's company here, after that fiasco a couple of years ago)

So can we change the subject - pretty please?


----------



## jcrosby (Sep 10, 2021)

This thread has devolved into conspiratorial silliness.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

MaxOctane said:


> It is probably a futile plea, but might I kindly ask that we drop the topic of whether Berklee imposes certain software or not? @Andreas Bjorck is a new member here, and while we are all here for vigorous discussion, topic such as this are distasteful when they are personal -- and Andreas was personally involved in this library. Let's welcome Andreas with positivity.
> 
> (I'm still sad we don't have the pleasure and honor of rctec's company here, after that fiasco a couple of years ago)
> 
> So can we change the subject - pretty please?


I agree. Like I said before, it's pointless to discuss it in this context.


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 10, 2021)

MaxOctane said:


> It is probably a futile plea, but might I kindly ask that we drop the topic of whether Berklee imposes certain software or not? @Andreas Bjorck is a new member here, and while we are all here for vigorous discussion, topic such as this are distasteful when they are personal -- and Andreas was personally involved in this library. I'd rather welcome Andreas with positivity.
> 
> (I'm still sad we don't have the pleasure and honor of rctec's company here, after that fiasco a couple of years ago)
> 
> So can we change the subject - pretty please?


Thank you, MaxOctane. I’m sorry for contributing to derailing your post. Unless someone is a student at Berklee, or prospective parent, or teaching there, it seems like an odd thing to be so concerned about.
And I’m not a new member - been here since the year the forum was started (came over from Northernsounds). Just created a new account with my full name, as it would be wrong for me to post anonymously here.
It’s been a few years since I had time to visit and post here. It might be a few years until I do again 😁😉


----------



## JTB (Sep 10, 2021)

Negativity in this thread is stemming from OT selling old samples at new prices.
Kinda says to me that the industry is stagnating and that we should probably not be looking to OT for any significant innovations any time soon.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

I think it stemmed from an unsolvable conflict between vested interests and criticisms. It wasn't all that bad.

Besides, I wouldn't bet on OT irreparably falling from grace just yet.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 10, 2021)

For me, the negativity stems from the fact that whenever someone has a valid complaint about this “new” release it’s counteracted with “This library was designed for students, not for you”, yet OT is advertising the hell out of it to EVERYONE on this forum.

If OT is going to promote this library to the general public, then the general public has every right to critique it.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 10, 2021)

JTB said:


> Negativity in this thread is stemming from OT selling old samples at new prices.
> Kinda says to me that the industry is stagnating and that we should probably not be looking to OT for any significant innovations any time soon.



To the contrary, OT is about to get a huge cash infusion and is very likely to have money to spend on innovation as a result


----------



## Getsumen (Sep 10, 2021)

JTB said:


> Negativity in this thread is stemming from OT selling old samples at new prices.
> Kinda says to me that the industry is stagnating and that we should probably not be looking to OT for any significant innovations any time soon.


OT has literally just put out a lib less than a month ago that I think many people found innovative or unique, and Talinn before that. But of course, that's all instantly negated by this library. Companies create duds all the time. That doesn't make the other stuff they make bad as well, or the company as a whole un-innovative.



Mike Fox said:


> For me, the negativity stems from the fact that whenever someone has a valid complaint about this “new” release it’s counteracted with “This library was designed for students, not for you”, yet OT is advertising the hell out of it to EVERYONE on this forum.
> 
> If OT is going to promote this library to the general public, then the general public has every right to critique it.


That's fine. I personally agree with many people that the lib is rather expensive for what it offers. Like them, this lib is not for me and I'm going to pass it up.

But people bringing in totally random critiques is so weird. Complaints over mic merging (over a lib without the feature), its "connection" with Berklee, the lib not including notation software mapping, which has somehow now become a debate over the legality of courses requiring materials. 

Like page 8 and beyond of this thread is just purely random, unrelated stuff to the lib.

Critiques that make sense I'm fine with. I don't really think we need 10 pages to discuss how the lib is too expensive for what it offers. (In some peoples opinions)


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> To the contrary, OT is about to get a huge cash infusion and is very likely to have money to spend on innovation as a result


Are there that many students in Berklee's undergraduate Film Scoring program? I'm not sure there's a huge demand among the wider public. We'll see.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 10, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Berklee has been teaching about multiple mic positions since at least as far back as they began offering their original Music Production and Engineering degree program decades ago, way before there were DAWs and samples and the like. They've got it covered very well—in-house, hands-on, with state-of-the-art audio facilities—and do note require this library for that purpose, as it is intended for a different one.


I’m sure they have, but my point still stands. If i were a student and was REQUIRED to purchase this library, I’d be pretty bothered that only one mic mix was included.

Students would get much more long term value from this library if multiple mics were included, and not just a library to full-fill a college course requisite.

And i thought books were expensive.


----------



## Aldunate (Sep 10, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> I’m sure they have, but my point still stands. If i were a student and was REQUIRED to purchase this library, I’d be pretty bothered that only one mic mix was included.
> 
> Students would get much more long term value from this library if multiple mics were included, and not just a library to full-fill a college course requisite.


I mean you should not be required to buy anything from anyone. That's the whole fucking point.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 10, 2021)

Aldunate said:


> I mean you should not be required to buy anything from anyone. That's the whole fucking point.


In the US, you’re not going to get very far in college if you don’t buy the required materials. It’s usually just text books though, but now they’re requiring specific sample libs?!

Just validates that colleges are nothing more than a business.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Just validates that colleges are nothing more than a business.


They're more than a business, they're a business predicated on rapacious lending. At Berklee, a kid from a household with an annual income below $30 000 has to pay annually (after aid) $43 518 on average.


----------



## Aldunate (Sep 10, 2021)

It's not going full Good Will Hunting to get your education without being forced to buy specific books.
That's the whole meaning of a bibliography, it's suggested reading.


----------



## yiph2 (Sep 10, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> In the US, you’re not going to get very far in college if you don’t buy the required materials. It’s usually just text books though, but now they’re requiring specific sample libs?!
> 
> Just validates that colleges are nothing more than a business.


The same thing applies to sample libraries... How can a teacher teach a whole class if everyone is using different quality sample libraries... Also from what I've seen their prices for the bundles is very reasonable - much much lower than retail


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 10, 2021)

yiph2 said:


> The same thing applies to sample libraries... How can a teacher teach a whole class if everyone is using different quality sample libraries... Also from what I've seen their prices for the bundles is very reasonable - much much lower than retail


So now a teacher can’t teach orchestration unless their students are all using the same sample lib? How the hell do you suppose they’ve been doing it this entire time?

Give me a fucking break.

There’s NOTHING this library does that everything else out there can’t already do.

Unlike a sample library, textbooks have very specific information that can only be found in specific books. It’s exactly why there’s new editions. And in fields that are constantly changing (fortunately, music is pretty consistent), the information changes with it, which is very unlike a sample library, especially if it’s a lib with just basic instruments and articulations (which this one is).

Justify it any way you want, but I’d seriously question a professor’s qualifications if they can’t teach unless all of their students are using the exact same sample library.

Fucking ridiculous.


----------



## yiph2 (Sep 10, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> So now a teacher can’t teach orchestration unless their students are all using the same sample lib? How the hell do you suppose they’ve been doing it this entire time?
> 
> Give me a fucking break.
> 
> ...


When did I say teaching orchestration????? Well you could teach orchestration using pencil and paper, but what's the point of that? Completely useless nowadays for film.
Have you tried taking a course with people using different software? I just have with students using both Logic and Reaper and it was a complete mess. And that was only 2 different software. Same goes for sample libraries. It's a huge waste of time teaching specific things to different students.

Anyways, previously, I'm pretty sure Berklee required VSL libraries, so this wasn't any different before...


----------



## korruptkey (Sep 10, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> For me, the negativity stems from the fact that whenever someone has a valid complaint about this “new” release it’s counteracted with “This library was designed for students, not for you”, yet OT is advertising the hell out of it to EVERYONE on this forum.
> 
> If OT is going to promote this library to the general public, then the general public has every right to critique it.





Mike Fox said:


> So now a teacher can’t teach orchestration unless their students are all using the same sample lib? How the hell do you suppose they’ve been doing it this entire time?
> 
> Give me a fucking break.
> 
> ...


It's ironic you think others are negative here.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 10, 2021)

yiph2 said:


> When did I say teaching orchestration????? Well you could teach orchestration using pencil and paper, but what's the point of that? Completely useless nowadays for film.
> Have you tried taking a course with people using different software? I just have with students using both Logic and Reaper and it was a complete mess. And that was only 2 different software. Same goes for sample libraries. It's a huge waste of time teaching specific things to different students


Theory, orchestration, whatever. Take your pick.

The point is that this library isn’t as complex or specific as something like a DAW. It’s nothing more than standard instruments with basic articulations that can be found in just about every other orchestral library out there, which is exactly why I don’t buy into your argument.

Trust me, If this was intricate software with specific functions and unique parameters, you’d find me agreeing with you.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 10, 2021)

korruptkey said:


> It's ironic you think others are negative here.


Care to elaborate? Not really sure what your point is here.


----------



## JTB (Sep 10, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> To the contrary, OT is about to get a huge cash infusion and is very likely to have money to spend on innovation as a result


The next Sine update and the time it takes to release it will be a telling indication of where this company is in regards to innovation.


----------



## korruptkey (Sep 11, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Care to elaborate? Not really sure what your point is here.


You really need to chill. Teachers have been asking students to use the same curriculum and tools for ages. Game dev institutions also have required their students to use the same tools and language for their course work. As others have pointed out VSL was the de facto for Berklee. So there's nothing new.

Using the same tool wastes less time. Think about this from the student's perspective, it'll be easier for the student to adopt the same tool as the curriculum. I really don't understand why you need to be upset over something that has been done for ages. You've focused entirely on the non technical parts of the courses like Orchestration and theory... but there are courses for mixing, mastering, sound engineering, etc where the same tooling and sounds is going to be important. The legato transitions on any patch is also something that doesn't exist with other tools. I'm sure Berklee have good reasons to go with OT and SINE. And I see this as a good thing... more testers, more feedback, and hopefully encourage OT to build more SINE functionality.

[Edit]
And to clarify, you said that the general public have every right to critique this product. So those who say "this library isn't for you" have every right to make that critique. And you've actually proved their point when you said, "_There’s NOTHING this library does that everything else out there can’t already do._" What does that mean? It's not for you, it's not for someone with more options. It's not for someone who likely already have an arsenal of libraries. While it might be okay for you to blow your money on a new library only to regret it, that's not an option for a Berklee student especially if it doesn't work well for their course. If I was just starting out, I'd probably be considering this. So again... it's not for you. It's only negativity to you because you don't like what others have to say. You're the one barking on someone else's tree for how you think courses should be taught. Just... chill.


----------



## Saxer (Sep 11, 2021)

I don't know any other "one package library" that offers all standard orchestral instruments listed like in a written score. They all have one or two solo instruments and a2 to a4 ensembles. Neither BBCSO nor VSL nor Iconica or anything else I know of offer that.

To learn orchestration I think this feature is essential. In a teaching/learning situation there are problems like:
"In your arrangement there's a muddy part somewhere in the midrange. Let's listen to the second horn together with the celli only while reading the score."
Or: "Try to play all trumpets in unison and split them into chords at the end of the phrase. What does the third trumpet has to play? How to avoid unintended jumps?"
Or: "How interesting is the viola part to play? Keep the player motivated! Lets listen...".
In that kind of learning situation there are no string short ensembles or monster brass patches allowed. Simply because there isn't a chair with a monster brass sitting in the orchestra.

Recording every instrumental part of a score is an essential experience too. As a writer you should know what you demand from the players.

It's a different task to get good music out of samples. Any library can do that. It's about understanding the orchestra.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> They're more than a business, they're a business predicated on rapacious lending. At Berklee, a kid from a household with an annual income below $30 000 has to pay annually (after aid) $43 518 on average.


You’re right. A sample lib around 1K is pocket change compared to the rest of the debt those poor bastards will rack up.

It’s been 10 years and I’m still paying on student loans. Gotta love it!


----------



## Kabuki (Sep 11, 2021)

Saxer said:


> I don't know any other "one package library" that offers all standard orchestral instruments listed like in a written score. They all have one or two solo instruments and a2 to a4 ensembles. Neither BBCSO nor VSL nor Iconica or anything else I know of offer that.


I do agree with you, but practically speaking its doable (except the horns). CSW has solos and a2. So you use the solos for the different lines (no phasing), a2 for the unison lines. BWW main has 3 of each, but this one only has 2. So you're not writing anything that CSW (or any solo+a2 library) can't pull off.
Same for CSB. Solo trumpets and bones for different lines. a2 for unison a2 lines. a2+solo for a3 lines.

The only problem would be the horns, which only Berlin Brass (and Dimension(?) not sure) has.
Being an educational institution I'm sure they'd want the 4 individual horns. Also its be nice to have it in one package with the percussion and harp.

It's just a little wistful I guess. Not every student in Beklee is swimming in money. For a little bit over that price tag, the CS series would be head over heels more useful to new composers for years to come. There are media composers who literally use only that to score all their work.

But education is education. And hyper elite schools like Berklee tend to be thorough and spare no expense. 
Good luck to Beklee and OT!


----------



## PaulieDC (Sep 11, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> I have no idea what Berklee’s curriculum is, but if i was a student I’d definitely want to learn about different mic positions and what they do.


I’m in my third semester at Berklee ( online but only three classes total ) currently for mixing and live sound, but I’ll be heading towards Orchestration classes, I think. Looking at the class structure, they really cover that across 4 classes in depth in both Score and DAW. Mic positions are not of importance at this stage, it’s all about the orchestra and music. Later classes and even post-graduate classes cover that type of detail but by then you are well set with your preferred libraries. The head of the department sought a library creator to fit early orchestration students and OT fit the bill. Thats what this library is for, those students. It’s cheaper than BBCSO Pro. Single mics but a fair amount of soloists. More instruments but less articulations, all in a 91GB package intended for laptops. it’s a niche product that fits exactly the audience intended. Wishing for more mics really doesn’t apply… but I tell ya, don’t listen to the demos, lol. You might want it, single mics and all. 😄

ps: us students get it for $600 btw, even me who paid for 3 measley online classes.


----------



## PaulieDC (Sep 11, 2021)

Aldunate said:


> Take a look at Berklee software requirements.
> Also they are borderly illegal.


Not understanding that one, all the classes I looked at require your DAW of choice, notation program of choice and a library. What’s borderline illegal?


----------



## jcrosby (Sep 11, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> So now a teacher can’t teach orchestration unless their students are all using the same sample lib? How the hell do you suppose they’ve been doing it this entire time?


VSL previously. There's always been basic requirements for majors. Apparently tough this makes OT the bad guys but a Cubase requirement (and previous VSL requirement) is totally not the same thing 

Minimum requirements per major









Technology for Majors and Minors | Berklee







www.berklee.edu


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 11, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> I’m in my third semester at Berklee ( online but only three classes total ) currently for mixing and live sound, but I’ll be heading towards Orchestration classes, I think. Looking at the class structure, they really cover that across 4 classes in depth in both Score and DAW. Mic positions are not of importance at this stage, it’s all about the orchestra and music. Later classes and even post-graduate classes cover that type of detail but by then you are well set with your preferred libraries. The head of the department sought a library creator to fit early orchestration students and OT fit the bill. Thats what this library is for, those students. It’s cheaper than BBCSO Pro. Single mics but a fair amount of soloists. More instruments but less articulations, all in a 91GB package intended for laptops. it’s a niche product that fits exactly the audience intended. Wishing for more mics really doesn’t apply… but I tell ya, don’t listen to the demos, lol. You might want it, single mics and all. 😄
> 
> ps: us students get it for $600 btw, even me who paid for 3 measley online classes.


It’s not cheaper than BBCSO Pro. With Spitfire’s educational discount right now or by waiting for their numerous sales throughout the year, BBCSO Pro is $600.


----------



## Martin S (Sep 11, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Berklee students are there to learn; not to bitch and whine like a bunch of entitled, presumptuous brats who talk out of their ass like it's going out of style and fall apart every time the Universe doesn't align with the precious desires of their heart; that's for internet forums.


So eloquently expressed 

I‘d might add:


----------



## holywilly (Sep 11, 2021)

I’ve noticed that the strings release from Berlin Orchestra is much shorter than the Berlin Strings, which I’m much preferred for strings library. I wish the upcoming Berlin Strings will have the same short release.


----------



## axb312 (Sep 11, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> As enrollment at Berklee is voluntary, no one is being "force-fed" anything. Unless, say, being required to purchase a certain edition of _The Rite of Spring_ for an orchestration class also counts as being "force-fed," or for that matter being required to take an orchestration class in the first place is likewise being "force-fed." Perhaps having to attend class, do recitals, and develop a portfolio is yet another burdensome indignity.
> 
> Berklee students are there to learn; not to bitch and whine like a bunch of entitled, presumptuous brats who talk out of their ass like it's going out of style and fall apart every time the Universe doesn't align with the precious desires of their heart; that's for internet forums.


This is a rather rude, immature and closed minded way of responding. Sad to see it here. Also sad to see the likes it got. Views are expressed about the product, not about other members of the forum.

Anyhow, I'm out of this convo for now, if anyone does get the lib and makes some music with it, post some examples perhaps...


----------



## RSK (Sep 11, 2021)

Saxer said:


> I don't know any other "one package library" that offers all standard orchestral instruments listed like in a written score. They all have one or two solo instruments and a2 to a4 ensembles. Neither BBCSO nor VSL nor Iconica or anything else I know of offer that.


VSL offers multiple individual instruments in their woodwinds and Dimension Brass product, but you are correct that those are a la carte and not all in one.


----------



## ansthenia (Sep 11, 2021)

€649 is pretty good I'll consider this option.

*Sees it is €778 after tax*

...nah I'll pass.

Tax sucks lol.

It does look like an excellent option for students, having all the bread and butter articulations, very reasonable download size and all the individual instruments. When studying and learning to write for real orchestra, having access to the winds and brass individually within their sections is a massive deal. I've been trying to study proper wind and brass orchestration, but you can barely apply what you've been learning when writing for samples where it's mostly ensemble patches or just a single solo patch, which using the same solo patch for each different instrument never sounds great.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 11, 2021)

RSK said:


> VSL offers multiple individual instruments in their woodwinds and Dimension Brass product, but you are correct that those are a la carte and not all in one.


Except for the low brass in Dimension 😉

The only actual competition on that front I'm aware of would be Chris Hein and Modern Scoring Brass


----------



## RSK (Sep 11, 2021)

pandamacion said:


> It’s not cheaper than BBCSO Pro. With Spitfire’s educational discount right now or by waiting for their numerous sales throughout the year, BBCSO Pro is $600.


Yes but you have to wait for their sales. Orchestral Tools' student discount is 40% all year long.


----------



## RSK (Sep 11, 2021)

ansthenia said:


> When studying and learning to write for real orchestra, having access to the winds and brass individually within their sections is a massive deal. I've been trying to study proper wind and brass orchestration, but you can barely apply what you've been learning when writing for samples where it's mostly ensemble patches or just a single solo patch, which using the same solo patch for each different instrument never sounds great.


This. 

When I started classes I was criticized for treating the brass and woodwind sections as monolithic. I thought all the trombones would play the same thing, the clarinets would play the same thing, etc. 
I've been working a lot since then on building chords in brass and woods, and the music is much richer for it. That's the main reason I bought Berlin Brass a while back, and why I still have VSL SE Dimension Brass on the laptop.

While it's true that you can use an a2 or a3 section for those passages where they play in unison, that just makes more work when you inevitably have to port everything over to Sibelius or Dorico. Dorico in particular has a concept of Players in the Setup page, which makes condensation of parts trivially easy if you keep it to multiple players.

The one main knock I have against Berlin Orch is that it doesn't have downloadable templates for Dorico and DAWs like the ones for BBCSO.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

RSK said:


> The one main knock I have against Berlin Orch is that it doesn't have downloadable templates for Dorico and DAWs like the ones for BBCSO.


Expression maps in both Cubase and Dorico are nothing but XML files... It takes some time to do it, but it's not that hard to learn how to write your own.

As a side note, for scoring there's always the much cheaper and quite clever alternative of Wallander Instruments' NotePerformer.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 11, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> VSL previously. There's always been basic requirements for majors. Apparently tough this makes OT the bad guys but a Cubase requirement (and previous VSL requirement) is totally not the same thing
> 
> Minimum requirements per major
> 
> ...


Don’t get it twisted. For the most part, I take zero issue with required materials. I went to school, and realize some things are just necessary.

But i do take issue with the notion that a professor can’t teach, unless their students are using a specific sample library (especially one as basic as this). Are their teaching abilities seriously that crippled, limited, and dependent?

I’m not saying this is the case (though i have had some pretty questionable professors), but when a VI member asks me how a teacher is supposed to teach unless all of their students are using a specific sample library (as basic as this one), I can’t help but scratch my head, and lose a little bit of hope for humanity.

Again, this isn’t a DAW or complicated software.


----------



## RSK (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> Expression maps in both Cubase and Dorico are nothing but XML files... It takes some time to do it, but it's not that hard to learn how to write your own.
> 
> As a side note, for scoring there's always the much cheaper and quite clever alternative of Wallander Instruments' NotePerformer.


OK then, I'll pay you $200 to create a working Dorico Expression Map for Berlin Orchestra and make it freely available to everyone on VI-Control. Up for it?


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

RSK said:


> OK then, I'll pay you $200 to create a working Dorico Expression Map for Berlin Orchestra and make it freely available to everyone on VI-Control. Up for it?


No, I would be losing money. I'll consider it if you buy me a Berlin Orchestra license and add an extra $500 for the work.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 11, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Don’t get it twisted. For the most part, I take zero issue with required materials. I went to school, and realize some things are just necessary.
> 
> But i do take issue with the notion that a professor can’t teach, unless their students are using a specific sample library (especially one as basic as this). Are their teaching abilities seriously that crippled, limited, and dependent?
> 
> ...


You don't see any benefit to all the students in an orchestration class using the same software with the same mic position with the same orchestral balance and with individual instruments?


----------



## RSK (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> No, I would be losing money. I'll consider it if you buy me a Berlin Orchestra license and add an extra $500 for the work.


But it's just an XML file....


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

RSK said:


> But it's just an XML file....


Yes, that's all it is.


----------



## holywilly (Sep 11, 2021)

So who is gonna buy Berlin Orchestra?


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> You don't see any benefit to all the students in an orchestration class using the same software with the same mic position with the same orchestral balance and with individual instruments?


Ideally, kids should have the possibility of building their orchestral mockups using libraries by all the major providers, as well as have access to a real live orchestra. And this should be all provided for free, especially given the bloated tuitions they already pay.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> Ideally, kids should have the possibility of building their orchestral mockups using libraries by all the major providers, as well as have access to a real live orchestra. And this should be all provided for free, especially given the bloated tuitions they already pay.


And that's exactly what they get. They have access to whatever libraries they need. But if a teacher assigns an orchestration assignment, the benefits of all the students having to complete it using the same set of tools are obvious


----------



## RSK (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> Ideally, kids should have the possibility of building their orchestral mockups using libraries by all the major providers, as well as have access to a real live orchestra. And this should be all provided for free, especially given the bloated tuitions they already pay.


I don't want to get into a debate about what school is better than another, but I'm in the Thinkspace program. We can use whatever library we like and we do indeed record with a live orchestra at the end of our studies.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 11, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> You don't see any benefit to all the students in an orchestration class using the same software with the same mic position with the same orchestral balance and with individual instruments?


Benefit or no benefit, no way in hell should it be the item that prevents a professor’s ability to teach.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 11, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Benefit or no benefit, no way in hell should it be the item that prevents a professor’s ability to teach.


Nobody said it is. But if it provides a benefit, great.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> And that's exactly what they get. They have access to whatever libraries they need. But if a teacher assigns an orchestration assignment, the benefit of all the students having to complete it using the same set of tools are obvious


What I said implies that there's no advantage of everyone learning to use the same software with the same mic positions, none at all.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 11, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Nobody said it is.


Hm…

“How can a teacher teach a whole class if everyone is using different quality sample libraries”

Post in thread 'Orchestra Tools Berlin Orchestra -- Created with Berklee'
https://vi-control.net/community/th...stra-created-with-berklee.114260/post-4911063


----------



## yiph2 (Sep 11, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Hm…
> 
> “How can a teacher teach a whole class if everyone is using different quality sample libraries”
> 
> ...


I did not say using different libraries "prevents a professor’s ability to teach" - as I've clarified in the next post, it is much more difficult and time consuming doing so with different software. Also have you heard about exaggeration? You're so focused on ONE short sentence of my response and you are ignoring the rest


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> What I said implies that there's no advantage of everyone learning to use the same software with the same mic positions, none at all.


I disagree


----------



## Toecutter (Sep 11, 2021)

Andreas Bjorck said:


> We have many, many other libraries at Berklee that we can use to teach the students about blending techniques and balancing and mixing with mic positions - including everyone’s favorite Spitfire libraries, Cinesamples, etc.
> This library plays a very important role as the students’ main library for their composing, and entryway into the world of orchestral samples.


That's cool, I knew Berklee used many other libs and thought you were ditching them to use BBO exclusively. Thanks for clearing this up! Good for students to still have access to everything else and upgrade to the full Berlin as they deem necessary


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I disagree


I know, and you're perfectly welcome to disagree.


----------



## Toecutter (Sep 11, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Berklee has been teaching about multiple mic positions since at least as far back as they began offering their original Music Production and Engineering degree program decades ago, way before there were DAWs and samples and the like. They've got it covered very well—in-house, hands-on, with state-of-the-art audio facilities—and do note require this library for that purpose, as it is intended for a different one.


I was talking about working with samples, orchestral mockups, template balancing, not OTB engineering techniques. I was under the impression that Berklee was going to use BBO exclusively from now on but @Andreas Bjorck cleared that one up!

It's all about the students and the students couldn't be in a better position than having access to a basic but very capable Berlin orchestra for cheap. And being able to upgrade for cheap too... good move Berklee.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 11, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> I was talking about working with samples, orchestral mockups, template balancing, not OTB engineering techniques. I was under the impression that Berklee was going to use BBO exclusively from now on but @Andreas Bjorck cleared that one up!
> 
> It's all about the students and the students couldn't be in a better position than having access to a basic but very capable Berlin orchestra for cheap. And being able to upgrade for cheap too... good move Berklee.


Not quite sure it will be a cheap upgrade to the full Berlin series though. Id also say the Berlin Orchestra is not particularly cheap for students considering a single mic.


----------



## Toecutter (Sep 11, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> Not quite sure it will be a cheap upgrade to the full Berlin series though.


For students, I'm sure it will!


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> Not quite sure it will be a cheap upgrade to the full Berlin series though. Id also say the Berlin Orchestra is not particularly cheap for students considering a single mic.


Perhaps it won't be cheap but they've promised that Berlin Ochestra owners would qualify for "special pricing" on the main Berlin Series libraries... It could be worth it for anyone who doesn't already own the Berlin Series for Kontakt (those who do can always count on being able to cross-grade.)


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 11, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> For students, I'm sure it will!


Will have to see. I suppose if it is quite a significant discount to upgrade to the full on Berlin series for students then I can see the purpose and use of the Berlin Orchestra, however, if its just the 40% off with a small little extra discount as own the Berlin Orchestra then I'd imagine it could still be very expensive considering the Berlin strings alone currently cost a student 604 Euros with a 40% discount.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> Perhaps it won't be cheap but they've promised that Berlin Ochestra owners would qualify for "special pricing" on the main Berlin Series libraries... It could be worth it for anyone who doesn't already own the Berlin Series for Kontakt (those who do can always count on being able to cross-grade.)


It might be worth it but it all depends on how much an upgrade price from Berlin Orchestra will be. I cant imagine that this will be a smaller upgrade cost considering Berlin Strings alone already costs the same as the whole of the Berlin Orchestra after a 40% discount. The upgrade costs will probably be more than the cost of the Berlin Orchestra.


----------



## yiph2 (Sep 11, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> Not quite sure it will be a cheap upgrade to the full Berlin series though. Id also say the Berlin Orchestra is not particularly cheap for students considering a single mic.


Again, Berklee students can get this for a huge discount - I'm sure Berklee students will be able to make good use of this


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 11, 2021)

yiph2 said:


> Again, Berklee students can get this for a huge discount - I'm sure Berklee students will be able to make good use of this


Maybe Berklee students will get a very big discount to the full on Berlin libraries, but then this is not just for Berklee students as they are selling it as a commercial product and in that sense in my view it currently does not really offer value for money.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

yiph2 said:


> Again, Berklee students can get this for a huge discount - I'm sure Berklee students will be able to make good use of this


Student discounts are standard practice for all providers, that really doesn't make OT's library cheaper than similar orchestral libraries by other providers. In my estimation, BBC SO would be a better choice (and in general, I much prefer OT's sound color to Spitfire Audio's.)


----------



## yiph2 (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> Student discounts are standard practice for all providers, that really doesn't make OT's library cheaper than similar orchestral libraries by other providers. In my estimation, BBC SO would be a better choice (and in general, I much prefer OT's sound color to Spitfire Audio's.)


Yes, but - students in Berklee get more than the 40% edu discount for this library


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 11, 2021)

yiph2 said:


> When did I say teaching orchestration????? Well you could teach orchestration using pencil and paper, but what's the point of that? Completely useless nowadays for film.
> Have you tried taking a course with people using different software? I just have with students using both Logic and Reaper and it was a complete mess. And that was only 2 different software. Same goes for sample libraries. It's a huge waste of time teaching specific things to different students.
> 
> Anyways, previously, I'm pretty sure Berklee required VSL libraries, so this wasn't any different before...


I concur completely. Every additional piece of software you allow your class to use is another piece of software you have to support. Pretty soon you are spending all your time on tech support… It’s hard enough with one piece of software on two platforms (MacOS and Windows). Folks seem to have little idea how any of this works at the scale needed to teach a class.


Mike Fox said:


> The point is that this library isn’t as complex or specific as something like a DAW. It’s nothing more than standard instruments with basic articulations that can be found in just about every other orchestral library out there, which is exactly why I don’t buy into your argument.


Take a class where a fifth of the students have this library, a fifth Opus, a fifth BBCSO, a fifth CSS/CSW/CSB and a fifth a VSL package. Each of these libraries has particular ways that are optimal for working with it. It takes time to learn any one of them well, especially if this is the student’s first real library. You can’t simply transfer midi from one library to another. So now rather than focusing on broad concepts you are instead spending your time detailing working procedures for individual libraries that is pertinent to only a fifth of the class.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

yiph2 said:


> Yes, but - students in Berklee get more than the 40% edu discount for this library


How so? On OT's own website, it says that the educational discount is 40%.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 11, 2021)

I just think as a commercial product OT would have sold a lot of these if they had just added a few mics and added a few extra articulations and not cut out all the legato options including fast legatos/ runs to make it a truly capable and more complete/flexible library.


----------



## Toecutter (Sep 11, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> Will have to see. I suppose if it is quite a significant discount to upgrade to the full on Berlin series for students then I can see the purpose and use of the Berlin Orchestra, however, if its just the 40% off with a small little extra discount as own the Berlin Orchestra then I'd imagine it could still be very expensive considering the Berlin strings alone currently cost a student 604 Euros with a 40% discount.


Film Scoring Major Bundle $970

$99 Cubase subscription
$1,199 Komplete Ultimate
$999 Izotope Production Suite
$766 Berlin Orchestra intro price

$3,063 total

That's a 68% discount, so yea upgrades will be very cheap for students! 
Regular customers that want a slim and portable Berlin orchestra will have to suck it up tho XD


----------



## yiph2 (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> How so? On OT's own website, it says that the educational discount is 40%.











Technology for Screen Scoring Students | Berklee


As an undergraduate Berklee student majoring in Screen Scoring, the required software listed below will be essential to your success.




www.berklee.edu


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 11, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> Film Scoring Major Bundle $970
> 
> $99 Cubase subscription
> $1,199 Komplete Ultimate
> ...


That's only for Berklee students though. Not any other students will get it at those prices.


----------



## JTB (Sep 11, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Take a class where a fifth of the students have this library, a fifth Opus, a fifth BBCSO, a fifth CSS/CSW/CSB and a fifth a VSL package. Each of these libraries has particular ways that are optimal for working with it. It takes time to learn any one of them well, especially if this is the student’s first real library. You can’t simply transfer midi from one library to another. So now rather than focusing on broad concepts you are instead spending your time detailing working procedures for individual libraries that is pertinent to only a fifth of the class.


I thought these classes were more to do with composition. So if one student was writing a 1st violins part with HS and the student sitting next to him was writing a clarinet part using BWW, how would that make the teachers job harder?.


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> Student discounts are standard practice for all providers, that really doesn't make OT's library cheaper than similar orchestral libraries by other providers. In my estimation, BBC SO would be a better choice (and in general, I much prefer OT's sound color to Spitfire Audio's.)


This would depend very much on what’s being taught. I can certainly see BBCSO being used successfully for a class or program. But it comes with a certain set of affordances that are different from those that Berlin Orchestra has. So if you want to learn how to write for a four player horn section, you will have certain issues to work around with BBCSO that you won’t have with Berlin Orchestra. Depending on how much a course planned to confront such issues could tip things decisively in favor of Berlin.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

yiph2 said:


> Technology for Screen Scoring Students | Berklee
> 
> 
> As an undergraduate Berklee student majoring in Screen Scoring, the required software listed below will be essential to your success.
> ...


Yeah, I've linked that page here earlier. It doesn't answer my question.


----------



## yiph2 (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> Yeah, I've linked that page here earlier. It doesn't answer my question.


You asked me how Berklee students can get this for less than 40%, and I showed you it??


----------



## Toecutter (Sep 11, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> That's only for Berklee students though. Not any other students will get it at those prices.


I thought we were talking about Berklee students using the BERKLEE Berlin Orchestra and upgrading later on for Berklee-only discounts. That's the whole point of this product, isn't it?


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 11, 2021)

JTB said:


> I thought these classes were more to do with composition. So if one student was writing a 1st violins part with HS and the student sitting next to him was writing a clarinet part using BWW, how would that make the teachers job harder?.


If they are spending any time on execution, it will matter quite a lot. And isn’t the whole point that the program believes students need to learn to work with VIs and working with VIs is part of the pedagogy?


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

yiph2 said:


> You asked me how Berklee students can get this for less than 40%, and I showed you it??


Not really, the issue being that of Berklee students' eligibility for the major bundle. Anyway, at least now I know your source.


----------



## yiph2 (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> Not really, the issue being that of Berklee students' eligibility for the major bundle. Anyway, at least now I know your source.


I'm pretty sure if you declare your major as film scoring you will need to buy this bundle


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

yiph2 said:


> I'm pretty sure if you declare your major as film scoring you will need to buy this bundle


From their page linked earlier: 



> To receive the film scoring major bundle, a signed Declaration of Major Form must be received at the Office of the Registrar before the start of the semester, and you must be taking Scoring Technology 1 (FS-203). Your account balance at the college must be cleared prior to getting your bundle.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 11, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I concur completely. Every additional piece of software you allow your class to use is another piece of software you have to support. Pretty soon you are spending all your time on tech support… It’s hard enough with one piece of software on two platforms (MacOS and Windows). Folks seem to have little idea how any of this works at the scale needed to teach a class.
> 
> Take a class where a fifth of the students have this library, a fifth Opus, a fifth BBCSO, a fifth CSS/CSW/CSB and a fifth a VSL package. Each of these libraries has particular ways that are optimal for working with it. It takes time to learn any one of them well, especially if this is the student’s first real library. You can’t simply transfer midi from one library to another. So now rather than focusing on broad concepts you are instead spending your time detailing working procedures for individual libraries that is pertinent to only a fifth of the class.


I have taken classes where students used their preferred tools. And in my personal experience, it wasn’t nearly as problematic as you’re describing it.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> I have taken classes where students used their preferred tools. And in my personal experience, it wasn’t nearly as problematic as you’re describing it.


And it's clearly better for students to learn all the best tools available. Besides, they should be the ones making their own informed choices, not be force-fed this or that product bundle due to their college's own vested interests (commercial and/or otherwhise.)


----------



## Chungus (Sep 11, 2021)

richhickey said:


> How do people expect these companies to stay in business? They can either frequently produce many cheap/small/abandoned things or less frequently produce more expensive complex/deep/supported things. I'm glad VSL/OT/Audiobro et al are still doing the latter.


OT _has_ released a couple of libraries in quick succession lately. Duplex, Miroire and this released in close proximity to each-other. Especially the last two. not necessarily a bad thing, but I for one am glad this isn't for me. Stops the disappointing from needing to pass it up. lol


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 11, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> I have taken classes where students used their preferred tools. And in my personal experience, it wasn’t nearly as problematic as you’re describing it.


It depends on the course content, it depends on the course size, and it depends on the students. And autodidacts of the sort that populate the forum aren’t the best sample for this. But there’s always friction that comes when students aren’t using the same materials. If I was teaching a course where programming VIs was a significant part of the course content I would definitely want the students starting from the same basic set of instruments. That allows you to focus in on principals rather than solving a bunch of technical issues related to the different libraries everyone was using. Then, too, since everyone in the class is using the same instruments it’s a quick way of also building a peer help network.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 11, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> I just think as a commercial product OT would have sold a lot of these if they had just added a few mics and added a few extra articulations and not cut out all the legato options including fast legatos/ runs to make it a truly capable and more complete/flexible library.


I agree with this


----------



## MartinH. (Sep 11, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I concur completely. Every additional piece of software you allow your class to use is another piece of software you have to support. Pretty soon you are spending all your time on tech support… It’s hard enough with one piece of software on two platforms (MacOS and Windows). Folks seem to have little idea how any of this works at the scale needed to teach a class.
> Take a class where a fifth of the students have this library, a fifth Opus, a fifth BBCSO, a fifth CSS/CSW/CSB and a fifth a VSL package. Each of these libraries has particular ways that are optimal for working with it. It takes time to learn any one of them well, especially if this is the student’s first real library.



I don't know Berklee at all, but where I studied (not composing but still creative stuff) you needed to have serious chops to even get accepted and on the first day they said "We won't teach you software, you can figure that out on your own."

I took a Cinema 4D focused 3D animation course and wanted to use different software. The conversation was along these lines:

Me: "Can I use Blender instead of Cinema 4D? I know it pretty well already and switching software now makes no sense for me personally."
Teacher: "I don't mind, but I won't be able to help you with technical questions."
Me: "Don't worry, you won't need to."

And it worked out fine.




jbuhler said:


> You can’t simply transfer midi from one library to another. So now rather than focusing on broad concepts you are instead spending your time detailing working procedures for individual libraries that is pertinent to only a fifth of the class.



I would argue everyone being responsible for the tech part themselves makes it even easier to focus on the broad concepts and spending zero time on tech support. When they all use the same mandatory library what's the excuse for not giving them tech support as well?
Especially when the mandatory library runs on a tech plattform that isn't mature yet, which Sine apparently isn't.

I get the argument of a unified library and sound making it easier to compare the quality of different orchestrations and having an objective baseline to judge against and discourage going down the sound tweaking rabbit hole, instead of refining orchestration. I can see lots of value in that for an orchestration course, so I do indeed see value in mandating the use of one specific library. Don't quite understand though why it has to be this new one instead of something cheaper that already exists, like BBCSO Core or... crazy thought, I know... the Kontakt factory library.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> It depends on the course content, it depends on the course size, and it depends on the students. And autodidacts of the sort that populate the forum aren’t the best sample for this.


There's no point in the enforced standardization of products for college undergraduates, when none applies to the Industry at large. Besides, there's hardly anyone from GenY and GenZ that went to college entirely empty-handed when it comes to Music software... Before formal education, everyone played with autodidacticism.


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> And it's clearly better for students to learn all the best tools available. Besides, they should be the ones making their own informed choices, not be force-fed this or that product bundle due to their college's own vested interests (commercial and/or otherwhise.)


Sure but not necessarily all at the same time. I would be most surprised if Berklee didn’t introduce its students to all of the major libraries in the course of their program of study. We’ve already been told they have work stations available that have these libraries loaded. 

I mean either you believe in the expertise of the faculty to guide students or you don’t. And if you don’t then music school isn’t for you. That’s certainly a valid life choice, and you can learn much from books, score study, and the experience of doing. It’s also valid to question the high cost of these programs given the relatively low placement rates of even the best regarded programs. But it’s not like a music degree is a required credential for work in the industry or anything. It is in that sense a completely voluntary credential. 

But none of that has much to do with the pedagogical reasons for requiring a set of libraries and software. In the context of the kind of program this is, it would be irresponsible not to require something like this since the faculty evidently believes that mastery of VIs and other music software is key to success in the field.


----------



## RogiervG (Sep 11, 2021)

people, shall we not continue to derail this thread, about the quality of teaching and such of Berklee?
Shall we focus on the topic: this library called Berlin Orchestra?? 

I mean i've gone trough quite a few pages (already more than 5), lots of posts with negative tones.. doing an offtopic "debate" (read: textual fighting) about Berklee and it's teaching method/pricing/student abilities...
It's getting very tiresome this way.. finding ontopic posts hidden away in all this offtopic debating.. If you want to deeply debate teaching tactics, pricing for students and what not, i would suggest you start a separate topic on the subject.

/rant (end of rant)


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 11, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Me: "Can I use Blender instead of Cinema 4D? I know it pretty well already and switching software now makes no sense for me personally."
> Teacher: "I don't mind, but I won't be able to help you with technical questions."
> Me: "Don't worry, you won't need to."


This conversation works for some students and some courses. But not all. And depending on the nature of the assignments and the kind of feedback a teacher wants to give or solicit from other students it might not fit the course objectives well. 



RedDot said:


> Besides, there's hardly anyone from GenY and GenZ that went to college entirely empty-handed when it comes to Music software... Before formal education, everyone played with autodidacticism


You’d be surprised at what students don’t know, even grad composition students taking a course in film scoring. Many don’t really know their way around a DAW at all, especially if they work primarily with acoustic music. Music students as a whole are even less adept at music software. Many have never used a notation program. So you are talking from your own experience and generalizing it to the student population as a whole. And most faculty aren’t actually in the position of being able to tell students they need to learn something required for the course or program on their own.


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 11, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> I just think as a commercial product OT would have sold a lot of these if they had just added a few mics and added a few extra articulations and not cut out all the legato options including fast legatos/ runs to make it a truly capable and more complete/flexible library.


I think the biggest mistake was seeing the library solely as a stepping stone to the full libraries rather than as a mobile composing library to the point that they seemed surprised that anyone with the full libraries would even be interested in this. I suppose they figure Inspire already occupies that slot. 

I think the conception of this compared to inspire is interesting to think about. If you look at how Inspire packages things I think you can see why that set of libraries would have been hard for Berklee to adopt, however useful it might be for sketching. The Berlin Orchestra seems better suited for the teaching task than the mixed patches of the Inspires. But arguably it also is better suited for a lot of composition, and one of the major drawbacks of the Berlin series has been its RAM requirements. This library is reportedly optimized for laptop use. So it might have offered a mobile solution for users of the Berlin series. But it seems rather too expensive for that, especially given that owners of the Berlin series already own these samples. I mean, really it seems like OT just didn’t think about this use case at all.


----------



## Gene Pool (Sep 11, 2021)

axb312 said:


> This is a rather rude, immature and closed minded way of responding. Sad to see it here. Also sad to see the likes it got. Views are expressed about the product, not about other members of the forum.


Hey genius, you're far too easily "saddened" (grow up) and imprecise in your discernment besides. If you'd have dialed back your eagerness to virtue signal and bothered to look at *the comment I was responding to*, you could have easily seen that he was *not expressing his views about the product*, but instead, his OCD + Off-topic-axe-to-grind asininity had led him to repeatedly bitch about imaginary "borderline-illegal force-feeding" and pedagogical decisions he has no clue about made by an institution he does not attend nor will ever be compelled to attend. My comment therefore was spot-on.


----------



## ism (Sep 11, 2021)

JTB said:


> Negativity in this thread is stemming from OT selling old samples at new prices.
> Kinda says to me that the industry is stagnating and that we should probably not be looking to OT for any significant innovations any time soon.



I'd argue that OT has been knocking it out the park in their investment and innovation of late - Tallinn, Miroire, and Tableau being my personal favourites of the last six months alone.

Sine, which is also growing on me, and and the consequent ability to buy instruments a la carte also count as solid, evolutionary innovations that I feel are beginning to benefit to many of ourselves here.

Add to this the free instruments Sine Factory, some of the recent sales that have brought OT libraries out of the elite boutique pricing world and onto my hard drive, and the ability to pick up a la carte only the bits of the Arks that I'm interested in (there's nothing like the bass flutes a3 in ark 2), the apparently ongoing "Orchestral Perspectives" series, and the bigger picture here is that OT has gone from an elite high end library that was probably never going to compete for my attention with Spitfire, to something that sits happily in my palette playing very nicely with SF and others. Henrick is right in that OT really is starting to offer a fabulously modular, and increasingly accessible, palette here. And entirely unrivalled, in my estimation, in its modularity and quality by anyone (other than Spitfire of course).

And this new library, although the samples are old, is a very welcome addition this this opening of the elite OT vaults to those of us who are probably never going to drop $5000 for the main collection. Especially if they make the individual instruments available a la carte.

Not for everyone of course. But even if it's not for you, I think it's still part of a very positive trend of OT becoming both more innovative and more accessible.


Even judged merely as an entry point, it's clearly not for everyone, but I think it sits in a very clear space between BBSSO and SSO (it's about halfway between the two in price, if much closer to BBC in size). Which I'd go for first if I were starting from scratch is hard to say.

I think if I was more in a Debussy mood, BBSCO is going to win easily.

In more of Wagner mood, I think OT wins easily.

Mahler ... this is where it get tough.

But for the kind of music that I *actually* write, SSO wins, but augmented with things like Tallinn & the OT special bows ... and maybe some of the OT / Berklee individual sections a la carte (if this happens).

I suppose it's "disappointing" that OT isn't suddenly selling the full $5000 library for under $1000. But honestly, I don't see how this release is anything but good.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 11, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> And most faculty aren’t actually in the position of being able to tell students they need to learn something required for the course or program on their own.


What do you mean?

90% of what I learned in college was from self study. That seems to be the case from most people I’ve spoken to about academia, whether it be former or current students.


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 11, 2021)

Thanks for the input @ism. I was hoping people would actually compare this to other all-in-ones and the instances where Berlin Orchestra might be better or worse; but somehow it ended up becoming a critique of Berklee the school, college requirements, and pedagogy. None of which is helpful to someone like myself who is considering this library.

Quick question: When you say SSO are you referring to Spitfire’s Studio or Symphony orchestra?


----------



## ism (Sep 11, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> What do you mean?
> 
> 90% of what I learned in college was from self study. That seems to be the case from most people I’ve spoken to about academia, whether it be former or current students.


I guess the question is would you have learned that 90% without the structure and context and guidance of the pedagogical environment. And also of how important that last 10% is.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Hey genius, you're far too easily "saddened" (grow up) and imprecise in your discernment besides. If you'd have dialed back your eagerness to virtue signal and bothered to look at *the comment I was responding to*, you could have easily seen that he was *not expressing his views about the product*, but instead, his OCD + Off-topic-axe-to-grind asininity had led him to repeatedly bitch about imaginary "borderline-illegal force-feeding" and pedagogical decisions he has no clue about made by an institution he does not attend nor will ever be compelled to attend. My comment therefore was spot-on.


You're denigrating someone for having said what everyone acknowledges to be true: students at Berklee are indeed forced to purchase commercial products of particular brands, i.e. they're force-fed those products. 

Take it easy on yourself.


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 11, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> people, shall we not continue to derail this thread, about the quality of teaching and such of Berklee?
> Shall we focus on the topic: this library called Berlin Orchestra??


In the interest of getting this thread back on topic, if anyone who is interested in the actual library itself wants to ask someone who has clocked hundreds of hours using the library some questions about how various instruments feel to play or the differences in sound and tone between the individual players in the ensembles (they're quite different!) or RAM footprint or whatever, I'd be happy to answer!


----------



## ism (Sep 11, 2021)

pandamacion said:


> Thanks for the input @ism. I was hoping people would actually compare this to other all-in-ones and the instances this might be better or worse; but somehow it ended up becoming a critique of Berklee the school, college requirements, and pedagogy. None of which is helpful to someone like myself who is considering this library.
> 
> Quick question: When you say SSO are you referring to Spitfire’s Studio or Symphony orchestra?


 
Symphonic … I have (and like) Spitfire Studio Strings, but its SSO that’s more directly comparable here.


----------



## ism (Sep 11, 2021)

Andreas Bjorck said:


> In the interest of getting this thread back on topic, if anyone who is interested in the actual library itself wants to ask someone who has clocked hundreds of hours using the library some questions about how various instruments feel to play or the differences in sound and tone between the individual players in the ensembles (they're quite different!) or RAM footprint or whatever, I'd be happy to answer!



How is it for Mahler? Also, how many dynamic layers do the strings have?


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

Andreas Bjorck said:


> In the interest of getting this thread back on topic, if anyone who is interested in the actual library itself wants to ask someone who has clocked hundreds of hours using the library some questions about how various instruments feel to play or the differences in sound and tone between the individual players in the ensembles (they're quite different!) or RAM footprint or whatever, I'd be happy to answer!


I have a question on what's in my view the biggest sore thumb of Berlin Orchestra: why the lack of other mics? I'd really like to know the product developers' rationale for it.


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> I have a question on what's in my view the biggest sore thumb of Berlin Orchestra: why the lack of other mics? I'd really like to know the product developers' rationale for it.


You would have to ask the product developer (I don't work for them) about that. But, my guess would be: that's what the full Berlin Series is for. This is not the full Berlin Series. Something has to be omitted to make it a smaller (RAM footprint) and more affordable library - right?

Anyway, the good news is that the full SINE versions of the Berlin series seem to be coming soon, as OT stated in another thread - and as having all the mic positions seems to be very important to you (it definitely would be to me too, as a professional composer), you can get them there.


----------



## axb312 (Sep 11, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Hey genius, you're far too easily "saddened" (grow up) and imprecise in your discernment besides. If you'd have dialed back your eagerness to virtue signal and bothered to look at *the comment I was responding to*, you could have easily seen that he was *not expressing his views about the product*, but instead, his OCD + Off-topic-axe-to-grind asininity had led him to repeatedly bitch about imaginary "borderline-illegal force-feeding" and pedagogical decisions he has no clue about made by an institution he does not attend nor will ever be compelled to attend. My comment therefore was spot-on.


Donno why all you're replies are so rude and self righteous. Could have just said - "Please read the post I was replying to". Instead you insist on attacking people personally. Something I've not seen Mike do yet. 

Anyhew, apologies for derailing the thread. You be you.


----------



## Gene Pool (Sep 11, 2021)

RSK said:


> I don't want to get into a debate about what school is better than another, but I'm in the Thinkspace program. We can use whatever library we like and we do indeed record with a live orchestra at the end of our studies.


LOL. Thinkspace is not a school. I've worked with grads from Berklee, Eastman, North Texas State, Juilliard, Curtis, USC, UCLA, and so on, but never one from Thinkspace.


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 11, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> What do you mean?
> 
> 90% of what I learned in college was from self study. That seems to be the case from most people I’ve spoken to about academia, whether it be former or current students.


I mean you are not going to have success as an instructor if you tell students it’s up to them to learn some bit of software required for the course without offering some support. That doesn’t mean that you have to teach them everything about it. But it means you can’t say this isn’t up to me to teach you. The only way you can do the latter is by declaring it a prerequisite, but ordinarily to do that there needs to be an institutional mechanism available for the student to clear the prerequisite. 

Learning things from self study, of course, that happens all the time, and is highly encouraged, but that’s a different situation. In first year music courses we can’t require that students turn something in using a notation program without giving guidance about how to use the software and offer help if they encounter difficulty.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 11, 2021)

ism said:


> I guess the question is would you have learned that 90% without the structure and context and guidance of the pedagogical environment. And also of how important that last 10% is.


Totally dependent upon the professor.

Some professors did absolutely nothing but regurgitate facts from a Powerpoint presentation they didn’t even create, and their exams were nothing more than multiple choice questions pulled from some pot. There was no structure, context, and guidance. It was appalling at best.

However, other professors were absolutely outstanding, and actually taught you how to critically think. Their exams were essay format, and required you to actually know and understand the material, but they did everything in their power to prepare you for it. They genuinely cared about their students, and wanted them to succeed. They made an invaluable difference in my life.

Unfortunately, MOST of my professors were of the former, and did their absolute best to either be as apathetic as possible, or deliberately try to fail the students, because the programs beyond the pre-requisite classes were so highly competitive and over saturated that weeding out students was the norm.

Either way, it was 90% self study, but with the really good professors, I felt far more comfortable with the material and felt like I had actually learned something worthwhile.


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 11, 2021)

Andreas Bjorck said:


> You would have to ask the product developer (I don't work for them) about that. But, my guess would be: that's what the full Berlin Series is for. This is not the full Berlin Series. Something has to be omitted to make it a smaller (RAM footprint) and more affordable library - right?
> 
> Anyway, the good news is that the full SINE versions of the Berlin series seem to be coming soon, as OT stated in another thread - and as having all the mic positions seems to be very important to you (it definitely would be to me too, as a professional composer), you can get them there.


I think the issue is that it’s clear this isn’t the full Berlin series since the amount of articulations is reduced, so it seems they could have included the mic positions and when you upgrade to the full Berlin Series you’re upgrading for the articulations not the mics.

I also thought Sine allowed you to download individual mics depending on whether you needed them or not which means you could only download the single mix (for RAM and space saving), but still have the other mics available to you.

Out of curiosity, how much input did you have on the sound of the single mix and what were you looking for?


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

Andreas Bjorck said:


> You would have to ask the product developer (I don't work for them) about that. But, my guess would be: that's what the full Berlin Series is for. This is not the full Berlin Series. Something has to be omitted to make it a smaller (RAM footprint) and more affordable library - right?
> 
> Anyway, the good news is that the full SINE versions of the Berlin series seem to be coming soon, as OT stated in another thread - and as having all the mic positions seems to be very important to you (it definitely would be to me too, as a professional composer), you can get them there.


It's been said here that you were personally involved with its development, so I figured that you might know the reasons behind OT's and/or Berklee's choice. This said, I agree that it serves more or less the same purpose (commercially) as their introductory Berlin Inspire series.


----------



## ism (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> I have a question on what's in my view the biggest sore thumb of Berlin Orchestra: why the lack of other mics? I'd really like to know the product developers' rationale for it.




It’s less that 20% of the price of the full library. Inspire cuts everything down to 2 dynamic layers and mushes things into ensembles (ie nearly all the strings are in octaves). This makes sense for a certain crowd looking for instant gratification (or there’s probably less tendential ways to say that if you like), but it really isn’t for me.

Conversely, while I appreciate the extreme high end of the full series, it’s not really worth an extra $4k to me to have 1st, 2nd *and* 3rd oboes (or whatever). Though I appreciate that for many it is, and OT is for sure where I would go if I did care about such things.

What I do care about is things like having the full dynamic range, and having separate cellos and violas. 

It’s not that more mics wouldn’t be nice, but for an 80% price reduction, this seems like a very nice sweet spot that certainly works for me better than either than Inspire or the full libraries.

Also, this seems like a very good mix. This is where Spitfire Studio Orchestra Core falls down - it’s tree mic only, unless you upgrade to pro. I can live with tree only for strings, but not for the winds. But like BBCSO core, BO has offered a very reasonable mix that - for the sake of saving $4000, I’m pretty sure I could live with.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 11, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> LOL. Thinkspace is not a school. I've worked with grads from Berklee, Eastman, North Texas State, Juilliard, Curtis, USC, UCLA, and so on, but never one from Thinkspace.


Id just like to add that Thinkspace Education is a very good music school, quote from their site "_ThinkSpace Education_ is an online school", They offer MA orchestration postgrad degrees, not only that but they have many extremely passionate and very good tutors there. You also do get a full orchestral recording session at the end of the masters orchestration courses which many other music schools and grad programs do not offer.


----------



## dcoscina (Sep 11, 2021)

ism said:


> How is it for Mahler? Also, how many dynamic layers do the strings have?


I checked with Gustav the other night during a seance. He said he approved.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

axb312 said:


> Donno why all you're replies are so rude and self righteous. Could have just said - "Please read the post I was replying to". Instead you insist on attacking people personally. Something I've not seen Mike do yet.
> 
> Anyhew, apologies for derailing the thread. You be you.


He's basicly just trolling this thread, shooting in all directions for no reason at all... Nothing new under the sun.


----------



## Gene Pool (Sep 11, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> Id just like to add that Thinkspace Education is a very good music school, quote from their site "_ThinkSpace Education_ is an online school", They offer MA orchestration postgrad degrees, not only that but they have many extremely passionate and very good tutors there. You also do get a full orchestral recording session at the end of the masters orchestration courses which many other music schools and grad programs do not offer.


Not even _halfway_ comparable to any of the institutions I mentioned. Facts are stubborn things and they don't care about our feelings. But if you want to get into the details (and believe me, _you don't_), start a thread in the miscellaneous topics sub-forum.


----------



## CT (Sep 11, 2021)

Excellent rule to remember on VI-Control is that people on both sides of an argument can look like jackasses at the same time, so don't count yourself safe when the other side starts to show its rabid hysteria!


----------



## ism (Sep 11, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Not even _halfway_ comparable to any of the institutions I mentioned. But if you want to get into the details (and believe me, _you don't_), start a thread in the miscellaneous topics sub-forum. Facts are stubborn, and they don't care about our feelings.


Well yes, Juliard and Berklee are undoubtedly top tier schools for people who can get there ... but I don't think that was really the point.


----------



## Gene Pool (Sep 11, 2021)

So, back on topic for the serious-minded people scattered randomly throughout this sill thread...

As to the prevailing atrocity the history books will record as the *Single Mic-mix Scandal of 2021*, there is pedagogical value in a mic-mix like the one in this particular library because it doesn't allow you to hide weak orchestration technique behind ambience. Whatever you do, it will be heard; the crutch is gone. Additionally, it allows for a more apples-to-apples *orchestration* comparison between each student's project (students learn from one another's successes and failures in _real_ music schools) since the single mic-mix removes variables that are superficial to the act of composing for *musicians*. (N.B., I said *musicians*, not samples.)


----------



## ism (Sep 11, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> So, back on topic for the serious-minded people scattered randomly throughout this sill thread...
> 
> As to the prevailing atrocity the history books will record as the *Single Mic-mix Scandal of 2021*, there is pedagogical value in a mic-mix like the one in this particular library because it doesn't allow you to hide weak orchestration technique behind ambience. Whatever you do, it will be heard; the crutch is gone. Additionally, it allows for a more apples-to-apples *orchestration* comparison between each student's project (students learn from one another's successes and failures in _real_ music schools) since the single mic-mix removes variables that are superficial to the act of composing for *musicians*. (N.B., I said *musicians*, not samples.)


Also, it's $4000 cheaper. Without loosing any dynamic layers. Or violas.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 11, 2021)

Can we unplug the thread and plug it back in and see if it works better


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Can we unplug the thread and plug it back in and see if it works better


I don't think so, the unsolvable conflict between vested interests and critcisms won't stop.


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> It's been said here that you were personally involved with its development, so I figured that you might know the reasons behind OT's and/or Berklee's choice. This said, I agree that it serves more or less the same purpose (commercially) as their introductory Berlin Inspire series.


Indeed I was. Not being an employee of OT, I can't comment on their business decisions re: what is in the library or not, of course, but I can give you my general view of it from the Berklee/education side of things. 
To me, as important as multiple mic positions are in teaching advanced mockup techniques, and mixing with sample libraries (especially when mixing libraries and live recordings/overdubs done in different sounding spaces), in the totality of what students need to learn about, and from, using a library like this, it's not at the top of the list. In other words, not a dealbreaker at all to not have that. 
Just to clarify, our students will be using the sample libraries at their disposal for a) their scoring projects (i.e. to do to the actual mockups of their music) and b) to practice more advanced sequencing techniques c) practice mixing techniques, and d) become familiar with the typical/expected features of professional sample libraries on the market - in that order of importance. Also, some students might take advanced electives for b) and c) - and for that they can the other libraries we have from Spitfire, Cinesamples, or the full Berlin series (most of these things students have access to around the clock) - while other students might just be focusing more on writing courses. In other words, the priority for a library like this - from an educational standpoint - is more on having a full set of instruments available, with the most important articulations, in a form where it can run on a not-brand-new Macbook Pro with only 16GB of RAM (this is crucial!), than having advanced features like multiple mics. And our feeling is that these points will largely be true for other comparable film-/video game scoring programs at other colleges and universities as well. 

And yes - I agree with you that the commercial purpose of a library like this is as an introductory/portable package, not as a replacement for or realistic alternative to the full series it's compiled from. I don't know much about business, but undercutting the flagship products in your catalog by making something much cheaper that is almost exactly the same as it doesn't seem like a great idea. 

Hope this all makes sense!


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 11, 2021)

ism said:


> Also, it's $4000 cheaper. Without loosing any dynamic layers. Or violas.


I asked for the violas to be left out, but no one would listen to me!


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Sep 11, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Can we unplug the thread and plug it back in and see if it works better


I had enough 4 pages ago and thus skipped those - checking in again now only to realize the thread’s moved nowhere since then.


----------



## Trash Panda (Sep 11, 2021)

Andreas Bjorck said:


> I asked for the violas to be left out, but no one would listen to me!


Poor big knuckled brutes never get respect.


----------



## ism (Sep 11, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I had enough 4 pages ago and thus skipped those - checking in again now only to realize the thread’s moved nowhere since then.


In fairness, there's been some useful posts amidst all the noise.


----------



## ism (Sep 11, 2021)

Andreas Bjorck said:


> I asked for the violas to be left out, but no one would listen to me!


I did not mean to set up the poor violaists for that one


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 11, 2021)

pandamacion said:


> Out of curiosity, how much input did you have on the sound of the single mix and what were you looking for?


A decent amount. Ultimately, the decisions re: something like this would obviously lie with OT, presumably in order to ensure the final result adheres to their within their aesthetic and design philosophy, and be consistent with the rest of their product line. 

What I personally hoped for (form the perspective of what would be most useful to our students on average, across a wide range of scoring situations) was something that had all the benefits of the "in situ" perspective and natural Teldex stage sound, without being locked into a sound that is too diffuse or "set back". In other words, a slightly more present or forward sound, that would make it easier for students to get a slightly more powerful/impactful sound in some situations, and also - crucially - make it easier to use some of these instruments in a smaller configuration, or a hybrid context, where the exact natural placement in the orchestra might not be as important (or helpful). 

I think the end result delivered on all my hopes here. I personally think the mic mix really shines on the brass and percussion in particular - both of which have a really powerful sound, with a good balance of the natural room sound and size you get from the tree and the impact and punch of the close mics.


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 11, 2021)

ism said:


> I did not mean to set up the poor violaists for that one


Haha. I couldn't resist. Some of my favorite people in the world are violists, though.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

Andreas Bjorck said:


> Indeed I was. Not being an employee of OT, I can't comment on their business decisions re: what is in the library or not, of course, but I can give you my general view of it from the Berklee/education side of things.
> To me, as important as multiple mic positions are in teaching advanced mockup techniques, and mixing with sample libraries (especially when mixing libraries and live recordings/overdubs done in different sounding spaces), in the totality of what students need to learn about, and from, using a library like this, it's not at the top of the list. In other words, not a dealbreaker at all to not have that.
> Just to clarify, our students will be using the sample libraries at their disposal for a) their scoring projects (i.e. to do to the actual mockups of their music) and b) to practice more advanced sequencing techniques c) practice mixing techniques, and d) become familiar with the typical/expected features of professional sample libraries on the market - in that order of importance. Also, some students might take advanced electives for b) and c) - and for that they can the other libraries we have from Spitfire, Cinesamples, or the full Berlin series (most of these things students have access to around the clock) - while other students might just be focusing more on writing courses. In other words, the priority for a library like this - from an educational standpoint - is more on having a full set of instruments available, with the most important articulations, in a form where it can run on a not-brand-new Macbook Pro with only 16GB of RAM (this is crucial!), than having advanced features like multiple mics. And our feeling is that these points will largely be true for other comparable film-/video game scoring programs at other colleges and universities as well.
> 
> ...


Makes perfect sense, and it's good to know that kids can work with other sample libraries in order to avoid and evade Berlin Orchestra's limitations.


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 11, 2021)

ism said:


> How is it for Mahler? Also, how many dynamic layers do the strings have?


I haven't done any Mahler mockups with it, just my own music (and I'm no Mahler!) - but do you mean, how does it do when going for a farily big/dense/lush sound in general? If so, I'd say very well. Especially the brass. I was suprised at how powerful the brass felt the first time I played them - no doubt in large part due to the added dynamic layer on some of the instruments, but also partly due to the mic mix. For anyone familiar with the (Kontakt) Berlin libraries, this has a bigger and more "forward" sound in general, out of the box, especially the brass and percussion.

The strings have 3-4 dynamic layers. 3 for all the solo strings, and up to 4 for the sections (I think the legato patches are all 3, while the shorts are 4). _(Edit: some of the bass patches might have 2 layers only, although I'm not in front of the library at the moment). _


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 11, 2021)

Andreas Bjorck said:


> Haha. I couldn't resist. Some of my favorite people in the world are violists, though.


And it's one of my favorite instruments in the orchestra!


RedDot said:


> I don't think so, the unsolvable conflict between vested interests and critcisms won't stop.


Speaking for myself, that's not what it's about. I'm more disappointed in the childishness of it all. Name calling, squabbling, unwillingness to actually read and listen and understand what others are saying


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 11, 2021)

Andreas Bjorck said:


> I haven't done any Mahler mockups with it, just my own music (and I'm no Mahler!) - but do you mean, how does it do when going for a farily big/dense/lush sound in general? If so, I'd say very well. Especially the brass. I was suprised at how powerful the brass felt the first time I played them - no doubt in large part due to the added dynamic layer on some of the instruments, but also partly due to the mic mix. For anyone familiar with the (Kontakt) Berlin libraries, this has a bigger and more "forward" sound in general, out of the box, especially the brass and percussion.
> 
> The strings have 3-4 dynamic layers. 3 for all the solo strings, and up to 4 for the sections (I think the legato patches are all 3, while the shorts are 4). _(Edit: some of the bass patches might have 2 layers only, although I'm not in front of the library at the moment). _


I really like that more forward sound. Is the mic setup consistent enough that you could say it's "tree at 0, close at -6" or something similar across the board or is there more going on than that?


----------



## MaxOctane (Sep 11, 2021)

Andreas Bjorck said:


> I asked for the violas to be left out, but no one would listen to me!


Dvorak would like a word with you


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> Makes perfect sense, and it's good to know that kids can work with other sample libraries in order to avoid and evade Berlin Orchestra's limitations.


Yup - choices! Also, since you clearly care about this issue (the moral side of it), I should mention that I personally don't require the use of *just *BO or any particular library in my courses. It's just a minimum requirement to ensure consistency, among other things. If a student of mine had BBCSO, just to name one COMPLETELY RANDOM example )), I would be happy to support that, and teach them those tools - and have done so many times. Also, I teach an orchestral mockup course for Berklee Online (as opposed to the physical Berklee undergraduate school in Boston), where there is no one required library, just a long list of suggestions and minimum requirements - with BO and BBCSO Pro/Core both among them, of course


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

MaxOctane said:


> Dvorak would like a word with you


And so would Toru Takemitsu, and Kaija Saariaho, and ...


----------



## Andreas Bjorck (Sep 11, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I really like that more forward sound. Is the mic setup consistent enough that you could say it's "tree at 0, close at -6" or something similar across the board or is there more going on than that?


Me too! It wasn't my hands on the faders in the end, so you would have to see if OT would be willing to comment in more detail on this, but I think there's more going on. I _*think *_it's probably more of a "this is the what makes each instrument/section sound great", while still retaining the sense of the natural "in situ" placement.


----------



## richhickey (Sep 11, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Can we unplug the thread and plug it back in and see if it works better


The problem with this thread is _everyone_ has a mic, and we need moar!


----------



## richhickey (Sep 11, 2021)

Andreas Bjorck said:


> undercutting the flagship products in your catalog by making something much cheaper that is almost exactly the same as it doesn't seem like a great idea.


Bingo.

Let the armchair product and curriculum development continue...


----------



## Pixelpoet1985 (Sep 11, 2021)

I also always loved the sound of the Berlin series, but haven't bought any of it, because of it's high price. I think this collection is a very great starting point for those who want to explore the Berlin series, and also to decide if to upgrade to the bigger libraries later. For the price you really have a lot of content.

I have no problem with just this single microphone mix, it sounds good. I also like the consistency across the board, even though I wished that at least the string ensembles had more articulations (portamento, fast legato).

Already posted in the official thread. I simply repeat and put some more questions:

Will there be another in-depth walkthrough of all instruments and articulations? (Even though one could watch the dedicated walkthroughs of the bigger libraries)
Do strings and brass have vibrato control, too? Is this a crossfade or a simple on/off switch?
And what vibrato style is this? Berlin Strings and Woodwinds have various options: non/progressive/romantic/strong vibrato.
What about muted strings? I think Berlin Strings had only a filter. Is this available here, too?
Do strings have portamento on the highest velocity?


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 11, 2021)

Page 16 is probably my favorite so far. Let's keep this energy haha


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I also always loved the sound of the Berlin series, but haven't bought any of it, because of it's high price. I think this collection is a very great starting point for those who want to explore the Berlin series, and also to decide if to upgrade to the bigger libraries later. For the price you really have a lot of content.
> 
> I have no problem with just this single microphone mix, it sounds good. I also like the consistency across the board, even though I wished that at least the string ensembles had more articulations (portamento, fast legato).
> 
> ...


In your particular case, it's probably worth it to get Berlin Orchestra. OT has promised to "qualify for special pricing" on the main Berlin Series libraries every owner of Berlin Orchestra.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985 (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> In your particular case, it's probably worth it to get Berlin Orchestra. OT has promised to "qualify for special pricing" on the main Berlin Series libraries every owner of Berlin Orchestra.


Yes, I know. At least I'm trying to resist somehow... Damnit. ;P


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 11, 2021)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I also always loved the sound of the Berlin series, but haven't bought any of it, because of it's high price. I think this collection is a very great starting point for those who want to explore the Berlin series, and also to decide if to upgrade to the bigger libraries later. For the price you really have a lot of content.
> 
> I have no problem with just this single microphone mix, it sounds good. I also like the consistency across the board, even though I wished that at least the string ensembles had more articulations (portamento, fast legato).
> 
> ...


Well i can answer some of these at least. The winds and brass in the main libraries (where appropriate) have vibrato and non vibrato which can be crossfaded. So if non vibrato was included, it would be one style with the option to crossfade.

I believe one of the trumpets has an exaggerated vibrato option as well, but i would never try to crossfade it. Either take it or leave it, it's that pronounced and intense. It's a special effect


----------



## MaxOctane (Sep 11, 2021)

So, @Andreas Bjorck, while you're here...

Do you ever find that the high quality of libs is a distraction for students? (Tone over composition)

And do you find students pick up the craft faster/better with software vs pencil and paper, or slower/worse? You can't just scribble in your intent in shorthand with notation software, e.g.


----------



## lettucehat (Sep 11, 2021)

Sorry if this was already discussed before the fighting, but to me the big news here is that the Berlin-to-Sine port is well on the way to being done, if not done already. I don't always watch news from developers I've barely bought from, but I don't remember even seeing confirmation that they were for sure porting everything over. Was this addressed at all during this product launch?


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 11, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> Sorry if this was already discussed before the fighting, but to me the big news here is that the Berlin-to-Sine port is well on the way to being done, if not done already. I don't always watch news from developers I've barely bought from, but I don't remember even seeing confirmation that they were for sure porting everything over. Was this addressed at all during this product launch?


It was hinted at in the Commercial thread. My hunch is that they want to release them all together, and maybe there's something a little extra planned.


----------



## jcrosby (Sep 11, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Don’t get it twisted. For the most part, I take zero issue with required materials. I went to school, and realize some things are just necessary.
> 
> But i do take issue with the notion that a professor can’t teach, unless their students are using a specific sample library (especially one as basic as this). Are their teaching abilities seriously that crippled, limited, and dependent?
> 
> ...


Like any course it's easier to measure each students progress if they're all working with the same tools. Students are also 100% allowed to use other libraries, it's not like they're forced (as some suggest) to only use this library. And the point about Cubase is that like other libraries, other DAWs than Cubase are equally as capable as a composition platform.. In both cases the same job can be done with different tools, but having the same tools makes the curriculum consistent, easier to convey concepts, and quicker to identify if/where certain students aren't grasping concepts.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> It was hinted at in the Commercial thread. My hunch is that they want to release them all together, and maybe there's something a little extra planned.


I wonder if they'll restructure the series with the new SINE offerings or will just port it as is. In any case, I'm really looking forward to it.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 11, 2021)

RedDot said:


> I wonder if they'll restructure the series with the new SINE offerings or will just port it as is. In any case, I'm really looking forward to it.


Right, it would make sense to consolidate some things at the very least.

Looking at you, timps


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 11, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Not even _halfway_ comparable to any of the institutions I mentioned. Facts are stubborn things and they don't care about our feelings. But if you want to get into the details (and believe me, _you don't_), start a thread in the miscellaneous topics sub-forum.


Id be interested to know why you feel it is not even halfway comparable to any of the institutions you mentioned and why it is not a music school. Not really interested in starting a whole thread on the topic.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 11, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> Like any course it's easier to measure each students progress if they're all working with the same tools. Students are also 100% allowed to use other libraries, it's not like they're forced (as some suggest) to only use this library. And the point about Cubase is that like other libraries, other DAWs than Cubase are equally as capable as a composition platform.. In both cases the same job can be done with different tools, but having the same tools makes the curriculum consistent and easy to identify if/where certain students aren't grasping concepts.


----------



## jcrosby (Sep 11, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


>


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 11, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> Id be interested to know why you feel it is not even halfway comparable to any of the institutions you mentioned and why it is not a music school. Not really interested in starting a whole thread on the topic.


My former physiology professor taught at Harvard for many years, and one day he asked the class, “Do you know what the difference is between you and Harvard students? Money.”.

The ironic thing about education is that you don’t always get what you pay for. “Real schools” are often overrated and are often ran by mediocre professors. Degrees also don’t mean as much as they used to. People are realizing this, and are turning to alternative methods (trade schools, accelerated programs, and online resources like Thinkspace), and it seems to be working quite well for them.

With the perpetual climb in conventional university tuition/fees, “real schools” are making less and less sense for a lot of people these days, especially if they’re going into something that doesn’t even require a degree.


----------



## JTB (Sep 11, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> If they are spending any time on execution, it will matter quite a lot. And isn’t the whole point that the program believes students need to learn to work with VIs and working with VIs is part of the pedagogy?


I would have thought it would help the teacher in regards to ear fatigue. Imagine going a round a classroom listening to 20+ compositions all created with the same library. MIDI editing is pretty standard across Vi's these days. If you are a teacher at Berklee teaching such a course I'm sure that being familiar with 5 different developers offerings would not be much of a stretch.


----------



## JTB (Sep 11, 2021)

Conspiracy theory alert!

What if Berklee approached OT with a proposition?. "If we make your product mandatory in our course which currently has 100 students enrolled, OT would then sell 100 copies for 650 euros a pop. Could we reach an arrangement where Berklee, how shall is say, benefit from such an arrangement?".

Same as with VSL and iLok.
VSL approach iLok and...


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 11, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> My former physiology professor taught at Harvard for many years, and one day he asked the class, “Do you know what the difference is between you and Harvard students? Money.”.
> 
> The ironic thing about education is that you don’t always get what you pay for. “Real schools” are often overrated and are often ran by mediocre professors. Degrees also don’t mean as much as they used to. People are realizing this, and are turning to alternative methods (trade schools, accelerated programs, and online resources like Thinkspace), and it seems to be working quite well for them.
> 
> With the perpetual climb in conventional university tuition/fees, “real schools” are making less and less sense for a lot of people these days, especially if they’re going into something that doesn’t even require a degree.


Great point. I'm not crazy about the elitism of prestigious universities holding all the keys either. In this industry a lot of the greats don't even have a formal education. If you learn useful skills from Thinkspace or heck even Google, that can go further than a fancy name with no talent behind it.

I might downplay the importance of the particular source of information, but i don't downplay the importance of that knowledge itself. I don't believe a person can claim to be truly invested in music and writing in their life and yet have no interest in learning any theory or foundational information.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 11, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> My former physiology professor taught at Harvard for many years, and one day he asked the class, “Do you know what the difference is between you and Harvard students? Money.”.
> 
> The ironic thing about education is that you don’t always get what you pay for. “Real schools” are often overrated and are often ran by mediocre professors. Degrees also don’t mean as much as they used to. People are realizing this, and are turning to alternative methods (trade schools, accelerated programs, and online resources like Thinkspace), and it seems to be working quite well for them.
> 
> With the perpetual climb in conventional university tuition/fees, “real schools” are making less and less sense for a lot of people these days, especially if they’re going into something that doesn’t even require a degree.


Harvard is a "hedge fund with a university attached to it" — the same goes for the other ivies: https://www.businessinsider.com/why-harvard-should-be-taxed-2015-9


----------



## MaxOctane (Sep 11, 2021)




----------



## jbuhler (Sep 11, 2021)

JTB said:


> I would have thought it would help the teacher in regards to ear fatigue. Imagine going a round a classroom listening to 20+ compositions all created with the same library. MIDI editing is pretty standard across Vi's these days. If you are a teacher at Berklee teaching such a course I'm sure that being familiar with 5 different developers offerings would not be much of a stretch.


And here I thought the consensus was you needed to program libraries according to the design of the library. I guess you would claim that all these cautions about not reusing midi when testing libraries against each other is poor advice. 

I mean, dude.


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 11, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> My former physiology professor taught at Harvard for many years, and one day he asked the class, “Do you know what the difference is between you and Harvard students? Money.”.
> 
> The ironic thing about education is that you don’t always get what you pay for. “Real schools” are often overrated and are often ran by mediocre professors. Degrees also don’t mean as much as they used to. People are realizing this, and are turning to alternative methods (trade schools, accelerated programs, and online resources like Thinkspace), and it seems to be working quite well for them.
> 
> With the perpetual climb in conventional university tuition/fees, “real schools” are making less and less sense for a lot of people these days, especially if they’re going into something that doesn’t even require a degree.


Sure, if you don’t need the knowledge or feel you can get it otherwise, you certainly don’t need a music credential to succeed in the industry. And if universities in general are providing credentials for the entry level to a set of middle class jobs that no longer exist, then going to college to improve one’s economic prospects makes considerably less sense. 

But none of that bears in the least on curricular decisions about software packages (or textbooks) by faculty at a school music.

If you are hostile to the idea of formal education you are you are going to be hostile to the mechanisms of formal education. And the great thing about the music industry is that it mostly doesn’t require formal certification so you are free to bypass completely that which you hate.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 11, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> But none of that bears in the least on curricular decisions about software packages (or textbooks) by faculty at a school music.


Never said it did.


jbuhler said:


> If you are hostile to the idea of formal education you are you are going to be hostile to the mechanisms of formal education. And the great thing about the music industry is that it mostly doesn’t require formal certification so you are free to bypass completely that which you hate.


I'm personally not against the idea of formal education (despite some of its obvious flaws), and being able to bypass that which you hate, especially when it comes to academics, is a beautiful thing. It's one reason i abandoned my original major, and switched to music instead.


----------



## holywilly (Sep 13, 2021)

Bought it, downloaded it and played it, wrote cues with it.

Every instrument is smooth and agile, the one mic mix is full of energy. The brass and percussion section is really the highlight of Berlin Orchestra. Every articulation just sound so precise in SINE player. The entire Berlin Orchestra blends very well with other libraries, especially VSL's Synchron series.


----------



## richhickey (Sep 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Bought it, downloaded it and played it, wrote cues with it.
> 
> Every instrument is smooth and agile, the one mic mix is full of energy. The brass and percussion section is really the highlight of Berlin Orchestra. Every articulation just sound so precise in SINE player. The entire Berlin Orchestra blends very well with other libraries, especially VSL's Synchron series.


Are you trying to ruin this thread with an actual experience report of the library? Sheesh, some people. 

Seriously, thanks!


----------



## axb312 (Sep 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Bought it, downloaded it and played it, wrote cues with it.
> 
> Every instrument is smooth and agile, the one mic mix is full of energy. The brass and percussion section is really the highlight of Berlin Orchestra. Every articulation just sound so precise in SINE player. The entire Berlin Orchestra blends very well with other libraries, especially VSL's Synchron series.


Post a demo or two pls, if you don't mind...


----------



## holywilly (Sep 13, 2021)

I don’t own any Berlin series libraries yet, so I cannot compare the differences. 

Sure, I’ll post something for the Horns a4 ensemble after I’m done with my cues, been pretty busy lately.


----------



## Kabuki (Sep 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I don’t own any Berlin series libraries yet, so I cannot compare the differences.
> 
> Sure, I’ll post something for the Horns a4 ensemble after I’m done with my cues, been pretty busy lately.


Can you also post a demo of the strings playing runs, or the closest you can get to a run?


----------



## holywilly (Sep 13, 2021)

Kabuki said:


> Can you also post a demo of the strings playing runs, or the closest you can get to a run?


Sure, I will do that.


----------



## holywilly (Sep 13, 2021)

I own some of orchestral package libraries like BBCSO Pro, all Abbey Road (foundation plus expansions), Symphonic Orchestra Professional, VSL (started with VI special editions, and now all Synchron series and Symphonic Cube), EastWest Hollywood Orchestra Diamond (no Opus). Now my workhorse libraries are VSL Synchron series. Always want to step into the realm of Berlin series, and I missed the 50% off sales…..damn!

Personally I like Berlin Orchestra as a comprehensive all in one orchestral library. Single mic position does sound very nice, the tree and close are very well balance, it’s not too wet and roomy. I don’t really have to worry about computer resources when using this library. 

In terms of legatos, it’s pretty agile across all instrument sections, I’m able to play fast without losing definition. However I’m so excited about the Berlin strings with different types of legato for more convincing sound. 

So far I only used strings section from Berlin Orchestra combining with VSL Synchron Elite Strings, they blend seamlessly, both shorts and longs.

The highlight of BO, to me are the strings, brass and percussions. I heard and read people saying Berlin Brass are lacking of the FF layer, it is included in the Brass section in BO (it states on the dynamic tab) and it sounds loud and brassy (all brass instruments). Percussions are punchy and detailed, yet not losing the lushness of the Teldex ambience.

I really recommend Berlin Orchestra to everyone who do not own any Berlin series, all articulations are consistent and sufficient enough to write professionally, also blends very will with other libraries.

Let me know what do you want to hear from BO, so far I have brass and strings run on my to-do list.


----------



## Evans (Sep 13, 2021)

I've got quite a few of their releases from the main Teldex stage (ten or so), but missed out on the Percussion sale. I feel like OT is teasing me, specifically, with this release.

I wish there was some downgrade/sidegrade pricing or individual patch purchasing available.


----------



## dcoscina (Sep 13, 2021)

Downloading now. Had a try with a few instruments. Winds: gorgeous. Never had the full BW before so this is a treat. Strings: great! Detailed and responsive. I also like that you can add legato slur volume in SINE- I wish Synchron Player would do that!!

Harp: excellent, just excellent. 
Waiting to try the Brass (should be great since I have BB) and Perc.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I own some of orchestral package libraries like BBCSO Pro, all Abbey Road (foundation plus expansions), Symphonic Orchestra Professional, VSL (started with VI special editions, and now all Synchron series and Symphonic Cube), EastWest Hollywood Orchestra Diamond (no Opus). Now my workhorse libraries are VSL Synchron series. Always want to step into the realm of Berlin series, and I missed the 50% off sales…..damn!
> 
> Personally I like Berlin Orchestra as a comprehensive all in one orchestral library. Single mic position does sound very nice, the tree and close are very well balance, it’s not too wet and roomy. I don’t really have to worry about computer resources when using this library.
> 
> ...


That does sound good and would quite like to see how BO copes with things such as runs as it does not come with strings runs legato. 

I still think that for me unfortunately a lack of any mic options and cut down legato options in strings mixed with the more expensive price puts me of buying it.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 13, 2021)

Also, If I had an idea of how much it may be to upgrade to the full berlin series libraries if I purchased BO now then that may have helped any potential purchase decision as I know I would not want to be without the mic options.


----------



## holywilly (Sep 13, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> Also, If I had an idea of how much it may be to upgrade to the full berlin series libraries if I purchased BO now then that may have helped any potential purchase decision as I know I would not want to be without the mic options.


Making our own mic mixes are always nice, I do that with all my multi mics libraries. BO on the other hand, it’s a preview library (at least to me) of upcoming Berlin series in SINE, single mic mix isn’t bad at all, great for mobile rig, and also great for layering.

I wish the upgrade discount is permanent, OT really makemy wallet weeps. 

Forgot to mention, harp and timpani are so damn good.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Making our own mic mixes are always nice, I do that with all my multi mics libraries. BO on the other hand, it’s a preview library (at least to me) of upcoming Berlin series in SINE, single mic mix isn’t bad at all, great for mobile rig, and also great for layering.
> 
> I wish the upgrade discount is permanent, OT really makemy wallet weeps.
> 
> Forgot to mention, harp and timpani are so damn good.


I just think its too expensive for me for that single mic option and cut down legatos. I would definitely end up wanting to upgrade to the full on libraries so I probably should stay away from it or it will all end up being very expensive.


----------



## holywilly (Sep 13, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> I just think its too expensive for me for that single mic option and cut down legatos. I would definitely end up wanting to upgrade to the full on libraries so I probably should stay away from it or it will all end up being very expensive.


Agree! BO is god damn expensive, probably the one of the most expensive libraries I ever acquired. But the legatos are pretty good tho. Orchestral Tools is the new Apple (tech company).


----------



## Oxytoxine (Sep 13, 2021)

How do you guys deal with the lack of different short articulations? If I read correctly, there are only piz and staccato. Is it possible to approximately "fake" staccatissmo by just playing the staccatos shortly in a halfway convincing way?
I do have nothing yet from the full berlin series and thus can not judge from myself, but am tempted by this berlin orchestra.

So generally, would you say that one can create passable works with the 6 available articulations, or is it really just a starters library and an upgrade to full berlin is mandatory for halfway advanced pieces?
I realize this is a somewhat dumb and highly subjective question, but many of you have way more experience than me, so your thoughts are of interest to me. 

(I also habe BBCSO pro as a "full orchestra", but as has been discussed to death: it's a ressource hog, I don't need all the mics, the consistency of the shorts for me is disastrous, and there are only very few dynamic layers, which especially on brass is very well audible)

So in a way I feel like I am stuck between two worlds: not advanced enough for a full e.g. Berlin or VSL series, but also spoilt by too many beautiful individual section libs, which make the omissions in starter packages all the more obvious, although they would probably be sufficient for my level


----------



## holywilly (Sep 13, 2021)

Oxytoxine said:


> How do you guys deal with the lack of different short articulations? If I read correctly, there are only piz and staccato. Is it possible to approximately "fake" staccatissmo by just playing the staccatos shortly in a halfway convincing way?
> I do have nothing yet from the full berlin series and thus can not judge from myself, but am tempted by this berlin orchestra.
> 
> So generally, would you say that one can create passable works with the 6 available articulations, or is it really just a starters library and an upgrade to full berlin is mandatory for halfway advanced pieces?
> ...


You’ll have staccato, spiccato and pizzicato for strings, staccato and staccato short for woodwinds and brass. All articulations and consistent across all section and are not disastrous.
I rarely use BBCSO Pro because of lack of consistency and the legato just pushing me away.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Agree! BO is god damn expensive, probably the one of the most expensive libraries I ever acquired. But the legatos are pretty good tho. Orchestral Tools is the new Apple (tech company).


 I mean it does look good I just would have wanted those extra mics and maybe the string legato runs for the price that it is at.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> You’ll have staccato, spiccato and pizzicato for strings, staccato and staccato short for woodwinds and brass. All articulations and consistent across all section and are not disastrous.
> I rarely use BBCSO Pro because of lack of consistency and the legato just pushing me away.


The new BBCSO legato update did improve the legatos quite a bit in BBCSO strings. The shorts in BBCSO can be frustrating though and I also find can be inconsistent, I just layer in CSS or SCS Pro for shorts when using BBCSO.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 13, 2021)

Oxytoxine said:


> How do you guys deal with the lack of different short articulations? If I read correctly, there are only piz and staccato. Is it possible to approximately "fake" staccatissmo by just playing the staccatos shortly in a halfway convincing way?
> I do have nothing yet from the full berlin series and thus can not judge from myself, but am tempted by this berlin orchestra.
> 
> So generally, would you say that one can create passable works with the 6 available articulations, or is it really just a starters library and an upgrade to full berlin is mandatory for halfway advanced pieces?
> ...


This is similar to how I feel in regards to not wanting to pay out for the full Berlin series which is very pricey but not wanting to take the compromises that BO offers at its price range, hence if it had a few mics and a few more articulations such as Leg runs and maybe portato shorts in strings then I would have purchased it.


----------



## Oxytoxine (Sep 13, 2021)

Thank you for your thoughts, appreciated!


----------



## ism (Sep 13, 2021)

Do the strings have multiple attack samples (which I think the main lib does)?


----------



## JTB (Sep 13, 2021)

It says 'Sustains'. So maybe that means multiple variations of sustain. But not entirely sure.
I was just comparing Horn 1 from the Berlin series and the Horn 1 from this library. IMO paying for this amount of articulations and 1 mic would be a waste of money.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 13, 2021)

JTB said:


> It says 'Sustains'. So maybe that means multiple variations of sustain. But not entirely sure.
> I was just comparing Horn 1 from the Berlin series and the Horn 1 from this library. IMO paying for this amount of articulations and 1 mic would be a waste of money.


Strings are even more limited/cut down from the full versions.


----------



## ism (Sep 13, 2021)

Ah yes, that makes sense - thanks.

It would be the Sustain Imm vs Sustain Soft that I would really miss. It's one of the things I love most about the special bows, first chairs, woodwind soloists, First chairs, Tallinn etc. It really makes an enormous difference to the sort of lines I like to write.

Still, if it saves $4000, maybe I could live with it. Hmm.


----------



## Paul Jelfs (Sep 13, 2021)

So are the ones that have bought this library happy with thier purchase ? 

What, if any , do you see as the weak points ? I notice they include Runs patches for the WW, but not for the Strings and Brass .

Could someone try some fast Brass Scale runs, and some sweeping Violin or Cello Arpeggios at speed to see how adaptable the legato is before it breaks down ? 

I am really tempted by the idea of this concise collection, all recorded in my favourite sound stage, with enough content to cover 90% of orchestral duties, without 100s of GBs of extra content that will not get used much for what I do. 

Waiting on someone to do a proper walkthrough .......


----------



## JTB (Sep 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Bought it, downloaded it and played it, wrote cues with it.
> 
> Every instrument is smooth and agile, the one mic mix is full of energy. The brass and percussion section is really the highlight of Berlin Orchestra. Every articulation just sound so precise in SINE player. The entire Berlin Orchestra blends very well with other libraries, especially VSL's Synchron series.


Wow! you must have been downloading it as it was premiering on YouTube. 
It takes me 4 days to decide whether or not I need another library, let alone set up multiple versions of Sine, set up the controllers how I like, write multiple expression maps, explore the instruments and all their articulations, experiment with blending with other libraries and writing cues with it.


----------



## axb312 (Sep 13, 2021)

Paul Jelfs said:


> So are the ones that have bought this library happy with thier purchase ?
> 
> What, if any , do you see as the weak points ? I notice they include Runs patches for the WW, but not for the Strings and Brass .
> 
> ...


What is the 10% missing for orchestral work in your opinion?


----------



## JTB (Sep 13, 2021)

Paul Jelfs said:


> So are the ones that have bought this library happy with thier purchase ?
> 
> What, if any , do you see as the weak points ? I notice they include Runs patches for the WW, but not for the Strings and Brass .
> 
> ...


90% of orchestral duties?. Not so sure about that. No soft sustains or portatos or repetitions or sul pont or col legno. Not to mention fast legato or fingered legato or ostinato. I would say more like 30%.


----------



## Paul Jelfs (Sep 13, 2021)

Well it is context dependent on what kind of work you do I guess - One person saying 30% one person saying it does more than 90% . 

C mon internet, lets ALL try really hard to agree on SOMETHING. 
At least we can all agree that the world is round. Ah sheesh....


----------



## Soundbed (Sep 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Bought it, downloaded it and played it, wrote cues with it.
> 
> Every instrument is smooth and agile, the one mic mix is full of energy. The brass and percussion section is really the highlight of Berlin Orchestra. Every articulation just sound so precise in SINE player. The entire Berlin Orchestra blends very well with other libraries, especially VSL's Synchron series.


omg finally! (well, I skipped several pages to find this)

I would be potentially interested in getting this ... looking forward to literally anything about the library the doesn't involve pricing, pedagogy, "it's not for me" complaints or "legality".


----------



## Paul Jelfs (Sep 13, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> omg finally! (well, I skipped several pages to find this)
> 
> I would be potentially interested in getting this ... looking forward to literally anything about the library the doesn't involve pricing, pedagogy, "it's not for me" complaints or "legality".


Nathan, from a purely selfish point of view, I would LOVE it if you did buy this library, and then, I dont know, say , happened to do a really good walkthrough like you have been known to do ?  

How is the Etsy controller? Loving mine


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Sep 13, 2021)

Paul Jelfs said:


> Nathan, from a purely selfish point of view, I would LOVE it if you did buy this library, and then, I dont know, say , happened to do a really good walkthrough like you have been known to do ?
> 
> How is the Etsy controller? Loving mine


I agree, he needs to take one for the team!


----------



## Soundbed (Sep 13, 2021)

Paul Jelfs said:


> How is the Etsy controller? Loving mine


I have the video review of the 8 fader Sparrow XL getting prepped, hopefully will get it finished this week. I might even get on camera!



Paul Jelfs said:


> Nathan, from a purely selfish point of view, I would LOVE it if you did buy this library, and then, I dont know, say , happened to do a really good walkthrough like you have been known to do ?


Thank you!
...Can't justify the price — it would be approx. $600 for me b/c I'm in the USA with a student discount currently — of the library ONLY to make a video review of it.



Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I agree, he needs to take one for the team!


rotfl!!



I'd certainly be up for an in depth video!

...although ... I usually come at things from the perspective of a "media composer" (I write cues for TV libraries obviously) and not a "student at Berklee". I graduated from an Arts High School in 1993 (music major) and college in '97 (music major) so my perspective for the target audience might be a little out of date.

That said personally I don't have any of the Berlin Series other than First Chairs and Special Bows.

But I've really come to love the sound of brass in Teldex and the expression of the woodwinds OT records in the Ark and Time series. AND BBCSO has not been a 'sound' I'm interested in, to date ... so I still don't plan on getting that. If I did a video (or more likely a series of videos) it would be along the lines of "what can / can't I get done with BO" as a media composer. I'm guessing it would take care of the majority of tasks!

hmm...


----------



## MaxOctane (Sep 13, 2021)

Paul Jelfs said:


> At least we can all agree that the world is round. Ah sheesh....


No. It's an oblate spheroid.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 13, 2021)

MaxOctane said:


> No. It's an oblate spheroid.


I think that falls under the umbrella of "round" and if you disagree it MUST mean there's something wrong with you as a person!


----------



## Zanshin (Sep 13, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I agree, he needs to take one for the team!


Just want to pile on. Soundbed should buy and review it (please).

Assuming the legato is good, shorts are consistent, and the mix is good and not too wet ...

I wonder if this and Berlin Character Strings (to fill the gaps in string arts) would be a good foundational set. 

I don't think it would ever be worth it to get this AND the full Berlin sections - at least not for me (I doubt the upgrade discount will be all that great, even when you buy pieces of a OT Sine library you only get like 60% towards the full lib).


----------



## Paul Jelfs (Sep 13, 2021)

Could also be a decent library for students on a laptop , less RAM etc.


----------



## Soundbed (Sep 13, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Just want to pile on. Soundbed should buy and review it (please).


🍻cheers thanks!


Paul Jelfs said:


> Could also be a decent library for students on a laptop , less RAM etc.


Yeah SINE performed quite well during my MBP M1 tests (16GB RAM) especially when I reduced the DFD Preload Buffer Sizes (in Options).


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> You’ll have staccato, spiccato and pizzicato for strings, staccato and staccato short for woodwinds and brass. All articulations and consistent across all section and are not disastrous.
> I rarely use BBCSO Pro because of lack of consistency and the legato just pushing me away.


Have you used BBCSO since the last major update? A lot of people here, myself included, are comparing Berlin Orchestra to BBCSO and it would be great is someone could do a comparison.


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 13, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> The new BBCSO legato update did improve the legatos quite a bit in BBCSO strings. The shorts in BBCSO can be frustrating though and I also find can be inconsistent, I just layer in CSS or SCS Pro for shorts when using BBCSO.


This was my concern. That even after the latest update BBCSO still had inconsistencies.

For me, this makes me lean toward Berlin Orchestra since I’m feeling like the extra $$$ mean less inconsistencies and more dynamic layers. I get the mic argument, but I don’t really mess with mics anyway as my PC is not powerful enough.


----------



## Paul Jelfs (Sep 13, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> 🍻cheers thanks!
> 
> Yeah SINE performed quite well during my MBP M1 tests (16GB RAM) especially when I reduced the DFD Preload Buffer Sizes (in Options).


How long until we see the Future of Sample Libraries on Ipad ? Its got an M1, there are RME audio interfaces that work for it. Plenty of ways to connect a Keyboard. I imagine that will take off with the next generation of composers ?


----------



## Paul Jelfs (Sep 13, 2021)

pandamacion said:


> This was my concern. That even after the latest update BBCSO still had inconsistencies.
> 
> For me, this makes me lean toward Berlin Orchestra since I’m feeling like the extra $$$ mean less inconsistencies and more dynamic layers. I get the mic argument, but I don’t really mess with mics anyway as my PC is not powerful enough.


I find that so MANY libraries, take care of the Spiccato's and Staccato's, but then the next best is usually a Portato , or a Detache, and I often find myself wanting something with the bite of the shorts, but with a slightly longer length. The marcato's are included in some libraries, but often as they are layered over long notes, often sound artificial. That is just me though, perhaps I am the only one that wants that type of patch.


----------



## szczaw (Sep 13, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Just want to pile on. Soundbed should buy and review it (please).


Set up a fund and chip in.


----------



## Zanshin (Sep 13, 2021)

szczaw said:


> Set up a fund and chip in.


NO you.


----------



## szczaw (Sep 13, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> NO you.


Did I make any requests ?


----------



## Zanshin (Sep 13, 2021)

szczaw said:


> Did I make any requests ?


Kindly fuck off and leave me alone


----------



## szczaw (Sep 13, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Kindly fuck off and leave me alone


What's stopping you from pressing that ignore button ?


----------



## Soundbed (Sep 13, 2021)

whoa, that took a turn...


----------



## Zanshin (Sep 13, 2021)

szczaw said:


> What's stopping you from pressing that ignore button ?


Aww and I asked you nicely too. The world is full of shitheads, not going to start ignoring them now.

Anyway, if Soundbed needs help buying libraries I'm sure he can ask himself. He's expressed interest, we are merely encouraging it because he covers things well, and is well respected.


----------



## Soundbed (Sep 13, 2021)

Paul Jelfs said:


> How long until we see the Future of Sample Libraries on Ipad ? Its got an M1, there are RME audio interfaces that work for it. Plenty of ways to connect a Keyboard. I imagine that will take off with the next generation of composers ?


I guess SINE and Kontakt and Spitfire and VSL could develop iOS sample players to be used in iOS DAWs? But that seems like a topic for different thread.


----------



## szczaw (Sep 13, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Aww and I asked you nicely too. The world is full of shitheads, not going to start ignoring them now.


You can count yourself one of them, since I responded calmly and factually and got a profanity back. Well done.


----------



## dcoscina (Sep 13, 2021)

Product Announcement Threads are often like car accidents... you don't feel right peering but morbid curiosity forces you to....


----------



## Zanshin (Sep 13, 2021)

szczaw said:


> You can count yourself one of them, since I responded calmly and factually and got a profanity back. Well done.


I might be.... words can be scary, I know.

Anyway, I'm sure you are a great person in real life - I'll back off, I'm sure this is all a misunderstanding


----------



## szczaw (Sep 13, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> I might be.... words can be scary, I know.
> 
> Anyway, I'm sure you are a great person in real life - I'll back off, I'm sure this is all a misunderstanding


No problem


----------



## RedDot (Sep 13, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I guess SINE and Kontakt and Spitfire and VSL could develop iOS sample players to be used in iOS DAWs? But that seems like a topic for different thread.


When it comes to iPads and iOS, I don't really care for sample players or DAWs. iPads are great as controllers with Mira and Max/MSP... Personal computers über alles!


----------



## Pixelpoet1985 (Sep 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I own some of orchestral package libraries like BBCSO Pro, all Abbey Road (foundation plus expansions), Symphonic Orchestra Professional, VSL (started with VI special editions, and now all Synchron series and Symphonic Cube), EastWest Hollywood Orchestra Diamond (no Opus). Now my workhorse libraries are VSL Synchron series. Always want to step into the realm of Berlin series, and I missed the 50% off sales…..damn!
> 
> Personally I like Berlin Orchestra as a comprehensive all in one orchestral library. Single mic position does sound very nice, the tree and close are very well balance, it’s not too wet and roomy. I don’t really have to worry about computer resources when using this library.
> 
> ...


Why? Doesn't really help with this thing called GAS. Damn... 

As you have the library now, could you please be so nice and answer my questions. Having posted them twice, but no answers yet.

Do strings and brass have vibrato control, too? Is this a crossfade or a simple on/off switch?
And what vibrato style is this? Berlin Strings and Woodwinds have various options: non/progressive/romantic/strong vibrato.
What about muted strings? I think Berlin Strings had only a filter. Is this available here, too?
Do strings have portamento on the highest velocity?


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 13, 2021)

pandamacion said:


> This was my concern. That even after the latest update BBCSO still had inconsistencies.
> 
> For me, this makes me lean toward Berlin Orchestra since I’m feeling like the extra $$$ mean less inconsistencies and more dynamic layers. I get the mic argument, but I don’t really mess with mics anyway as my PC is not powerful enough.


I think you would be better of getting BBCSO Core which would give you the options to update to Pro and get lots of mics at a later date and then also get something like CSS which would give you great consistency with the shorts and legatos or SCS in a sale. That would come to the same price as the BO.


----------



## dcoscina (Sep 13, 2021)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Why? Doesn't really help with this thing called GAS. Damn...
> 
> As you have the library now, could you please be so nice and answer my questions. Having posted them twice, but no answers yet.
> 
> ...


Brass, Winds and strings have vibrato assigned to CC4. It’s on or off. They default to off btw when you first load them up.


----------



## Dan (Sep 13, 2021)

I bought Berlin Orchestra on Friday and since then played around with it in my spare time – just writing whatever came into my mind and trying out different orchestrations etc. to see how things sound. This is the result so far. No ensemble patches were used for brass and woodwinds, only the different soloists.




Some observations:

- Everything seems well balanced and natural. In the example above, all tracks are always at the same volume level. No expression CC was used, just CC1 for dynamics.

- The sound is also very pleasant. The only thing I used here is a limiter on the whole project, so you get an impression of the sound right out of the box.

- The legatos are for the most part consistent with only minor bumps here and there. Woodwinds are the most agile since they have a dedicated faster legato that is triggered by playing speed.

- The string legatos work fine, but are sadly not perfect for really fast passages or runs. I think I will try combining legato with staccato patches to maybe get more agility that way for faster stuff... if only there was something like the performance legato from BBCSO...
The strings also could really use a portato or marcato patch. Just one little patch would greatly increase usability and flexibility. I wish they had included that.

- Articulations sound smooth and even. There are some differences between instruments – for example, Trombone 2 longs sound a lot brighter at top velocity than Trombone 1 longs. But articulations within one instrument work generally really well together. Short notes also seem to be very, very consistent. I noticed one short staccato sample in the Contrabassoon that kind of sticks out, but other than that everything was very accurate to my ear so far – also timing-wise at high speeds as you can hear in the piece.

So overall, I enjoy the sound a lot and the balance of the orchestra really adds to the fun of just trying things out. I only wish the strings had one or two extra patches to fill the gap between legato and staccato... or some kind of performance patch.


----------



## Dan (Sep 13, 2021)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Why? Doesn't really help with this thing called GAS. Damn...
> 
> As you have the library now, could you please be so nice and answer my questions. Having posted them twice, but no answers yet.
> 
> ...


I can at least answer two of those: 
- There are no muted strings
- The strings don't have portamento, only one type of legato.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 13, 2021)

Dan said:


> I bought Berlin Orchestra on Friday and since then played around with it in my spare time – just writing whatever came into my mind and trying out different orchestrations etc. to see how things sound. This is the result so far. No ensemble patches were used for brass and woodwinds, only the different soloists.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You have confirmed my exact thoughts and concerns about the library and the main reason I have not purchased it. The lack of a performance type legatos that includes the faster strings legato patch/runs legato and missed strings portato articulation is one of the main reasons I have not gone for it. It is a shame this was not included. Just listened to your piece and the overall sound does sound very good, great piece.


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 13, 2021)

@Dan That’s a great composition. Thank you for sharing. You bring up a great point about the strings.

If you had to choose between this and BBCSO, what would you go with?


----------



## holywilly (Sep 13, 2021)

I purchased Berlin Orchestra mainly to take advantage of special discount price toward the upcoming Berlin series in SINE. 

To answer some questions:
- there’s only one vibrato type in this collection.
- no crossfade between senza/con vibrato, just an on/off switch.
- no portamento.
- no other legato options, just slur for most instruments, fast runs included in woodwinds.

If people want to get the most of the orchestral libraries, wait for the modular Berlin series in SINE, or other libraries. 
Yes, Berlin Orchestra is god damn expensive with less contents comparing with BBCSO and VSL special edition. If you are sample-holic like me, or ultra busy composers who are always on duty and having great monthly income Berlin Orchestra is a good buy.


----------



## Dan (Sep 13, 2021)

pandamacion said:


> @Dan That’s a great composition. Thank you for sharing. You bring up a great point about the strings.
> 
> If you had to choose between this and BBCSO, what would you go with?



Here is a BBCSO version of the track, with the standard Mix 1 from BBCSO Core (but some instruments from the Pro version playing along).




My observations:

The BBCSO woodwinds can easily keep up with BO during the quiet start of the piece and sound even more convincing playing the run near the end. They also sound lovely during louder parts and blend very well with the strings.

The BBCSO brass however is somewhat uneven, with the trumpets very far away in the mix (especially the short samples seem to have a lot of reverb baked in) and with staccatissimos that are not very snappy. Trombones and horns also have some inconsistencies between articulations.

The BBCSO strings on the other hand are just great. They sound silky smooth and the faster legatos + the run near the end sound more convincing to my ears than the ones from BO...

It's really tough for me to choose one library over the other. Berlin Orchestra has a mix that sounds just right to me, with everything in place. BBCSO Core as an orchestra sounds somehow further apart, with the strings in the foreground and some of the brass more in the distance.
BBCSO of course has a lot more articulations than BO and really awesome performance patches (extended legatos) that are just a joy to play with, but BO offers multiple solo players per section which I personally like a lot.... sooo.. yeah. I don't know.

I think I will have to examine BO a bit closer and throw some more challenging stuff at it before I can make up my mind.


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 13, 2021)

Dan said:


> Here is a BBCSO version of the track, with the standard Mix 1 from BBCSO Core (but some instruments from the Pro version playing along).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow! Thank you so much! I imagine I’m not going to be the only one torn between which library to get and this is really helpful for comparing the two.


----------



## gedlig (Sep 13, 2021)

MaxOctane said:


> No. It's an oblate spheroid.


Actually it's a geoid 🤓


----------



## holywilly (Sep 14, 2021)

Dan said:


> I bought Berlin Orchestra on Friday and since then played around with it in my spare time – just writing whatever came into my mind and trying out different orchestrations etc. to see how things sound. This is the result so far. No ensemble patches were used for brass and woodwinds, only the different soloists.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your music really makes the library shine, and awesome writing too! I can't even write a note like that!


----------



## Go To 11 (Sep 14, 2021)

Dan said:


> I bought Berlin Orchestra on Friday and since then played around with it in my spare time – just writing whatever came into my mind and trying out different orchestrations etc. to see how things sound. This is the result so far. No ensemble patches were used for brass and woodwinds, only the different soloists.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is fantastic! So dynamic; you really know your stuff! A great showcase for all the instruments, and a wonderful room tone and sound overall. Thanks.


----------



## RogiervG (Sep 14, 2021)

Overall for this piece, BO sound better to my ears (brass really sounds great!), agile it has also a more awake/present sound (faster attack response, even in the legato's).

BBC SO is imho suited for the slower/gentler music (i bet BO can do that well too), not so much for agile stuff (from all the demos/songs ive heard), and yes the brass is still quite weak in higher dynamics (3rd dynamic layer so to speak) and fast string passages sound very fake/synthy to me.


----------



## Oxytoxine (Sep 14, 2021)

I just discovered that there is also Berlin Inspire 1 + 2, which seems to take a completely different approach for a "slimmed down" excerpt of the full berlin series (only 1 dynamic layer, mostly preorchestrated combinations etc.).

Now I wonder whether pairing berlin orchestra with the berlin inspires could be a nice entry point into the berlin ecosytem.

I assume that the mic mixes in both are different and will not match well, but maybe they do? 

And as a more general question for those that have the inspires: are they a "serious" tool, or really just an extremely slimmed down version that is only of use for sketching? 

I know, this thread is about the new Berlin Orchestra, but I assume that I am not the only one comparing these two packages and wondering which would be the smarter move, so I post it here.

Thanks in advance in case someone has experience with one or even better: both of them


----------



## CT (Sep 14, 2021)

Dan said:


> Here is a BBCSO version of the track, with the standard Mix 1 from BBCSO Core (but some instruments from the Pro version playing along).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for doing this comparison (do I hear something like Janáček in there?). Unsurprisingly I much prefer the sound of BBCSO, which has considerably greater depth of image, while Berlin feels rather flat, with everything somehow equally present. The transparency of the individual players in the brass, though, is very appealing in the Berlin example. I do wish more developers would adopt this (admittedly more difficult and expensive) method.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985 (Sep 14, 2021)

Michaelt said:


> Thanks for doing this comparison (do I hear something like Janáček in there?). Unsurprisingly I much prefer the sound of BBCSO, which has considerably greater depth of image, while Berlin feels rather flat, with everything somehow equally present. The transparency of the individual players in the brass, though, is very appealing in the Berlin example. I do wish more developers would adopt this (admittedly more difficult and expensive) method.


Actually it‘s not a “fair” comparison, because the BBCSO mix has the ambient mics added. Compared to just the tree + close of BO these make a huge difference.

I like both versions though, but prefer the detail and crispness of BO. Never really liked the brass in the BBCSO mix.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 14, 2021)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Actually it‘s not a “fair” comparison, because the BBCSO mix has the ambient mics added. Compared to just the tree + close of BO these make a huge difference.
> 
> I like both versions though, but prefer the detail and crispness of BO. Never really liked the brass in the BBCSO mix.


I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's unfair, but yes the chosen mics are worth mentioning. It's not an accurate picture of which *full libraries* sound better


----------



## daviddln (Sep 14, 2021)

Has anyone else noticed some tuning issues with Trombone 1? Especially for notes like Bb1 and Eb2 (Leg vib and Sus vib). Here is an example.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 14, 2021)

Dan said:


> Here is a BBCSO version of the track, with the standard Mix 1 from BBCSO Core (but some instruments from the Pro version playing along).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for these examples, they're extremely well done! I think on the one hand, Berlin sounds significantly more convincing in performance and expression, and the more detailed and upfront sound and beefier, more room-filling brass sort of outweigh the fact that BBCSO has a deeper depth of field and those incredible sounding strings. BBC really nailed the faster runs at the end though! That was the one point where BBC had a very clear advantage.

I don't think one can really be called way better than the other, so it comes down to price and which sound you connect with


----------



## Dan (Sep 15, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Thank you so much for these examples, they're extremely well done! I think on the one hand, Berlin sounds significantly more convincing in performance and expression, and the more detailed and upfront sound and beefier, more room-filling brass sort of outweigh the fact that BBCSO has a deeper depth of field and those incredible sounding strings. BBC really nailed the faster runs at the end though! That was the one point where BBC had a very clear advantage.
> 
> I don't think one can really be called way better than the other, so it comes down to price and which sound you connect with


I think it would be interesting to also try it the other way around to be completely fair... write something with BBCSO that plays to its strenghts and then redo it with Berlin Orchestra. 

Those short notes obviously are a sweet spot for Berlin Orchestra, I imagine there would be melodic lines or phrases where the extended legatos of BBCSO really shine compared to Berlin.


----------



## mybadmemory (Sep 15, 2021)

Wonderful comparison @Dan. As expected Berlin sounds more upfront and defined, and BBC more distanced and homogenous. It's obviously a matter of preference and taste. They both sound fantastic. As does you composition.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 15, 2021)

Dan said:


> I think it would be interesting to also try it the other way around to be completely fair... write something with BBCSO that plays to its strenghts and then redo it with Berlin Orchestra.
> 
> Those short notes obviously are a sweet spot for Berlin Orchestra, I imagine there would be melodic lines or phrases where the extended legatos of BBCSO really shine compared to Berlin.


I actually didn't like the sound of the legatos in BBC as much as BO in your example, with the exception of the faster runs.


----------



## holywilly (Sep 15, 2021)

BBCSO Strings’ legato have way too much vibrato, especially the violins I and first chair violin. It’s a pity that the vibrato slider is an on/off switch.  Where Berlin strings’ vibratos are just at the right amount, so does VSL.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 15, 2021)

Dan said:


> I think it would be interesting to also try it the other way around to be completely fair... write something with BBCSO that plays to its strenghts and then redo it with Berlin Orchestra.
> 
> Those short notes obviously are a sweet spot for Berlin Orchestra, I imagine there would be melodic lines or phrases where the extended legatos of BBCSO really shine compared to Berlin.


Your demo doesn't give much of an edge to BO... I actually prefer the BBCSO version in this case, although I usually prefer OT's (and VSL's) sound color to Spitfire Audio's. I think your demo served its purpose very well.


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 15, 2021)

East West just brought Hollywood Orchestra Opus down to $595, making it cheaper than Berlin Orchestra with the educational discount, and it seems there’s no more Gold or Diamond versions anymore. Interesting timing… very interesting…

To be honest, I feel bad for anyone who purchased Opus before now.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 15, 2021)

pandamacion said:


> East West just brought Hollywood Orchestra Opus down to $595, making it cheaper than Berlin Orchestra with the educational discount, and it seems there’s no more Gold or Diamond versions anymore. Interesting timing… very interesting…
> 
> To be honest, I feel bad for anyone who purchased Opus before now.


The plot thickens...


----------



## szczaw (Sep 15, 2021)

It's a confrontation, Berlin vs Hollywood.


----------



## Petrucci (Sep 15, 2021)

szczaw said:


> It's a confrontation, Berlin vs Hollywood.



Actually Opus Diamond at this price (500$) is really no brainer. More articulations and mics than BO, though BO has more instruments. I wonder whose player is more stable - Opus or Sine? Now that the upgrade price for EWHO to Opus went down to 295$ I might upgrade as well))


----------



## tzilla (Sep 20, 2021)

I haven't stopped learning since I bought a drum machine and a Yamaha DX7. Does that make me a student??


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 20, 2021)

Petrucci said:


> Actually Opus Diamond at this price (500$) is really no brainer. More articulations and mics than BO, though BO has more instruments. I wonder whose player is more stable - Opus or Sine? Now that the upgrade price for EWHO to Opus went down to 295$ I might upgrade as well))


The woodwinds alone are a good argument for Berlin, plus individual brass and instruments. It all depends what you're trying to do and what your preferences are. I'm glad there are so many good options


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 20, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> The woodwinds alone are a good argument for Berlin, plus individual brass and instruments. It all depends what you're trying to do and what your preferences are. I'm glad there are so many good options


Yes, we still can't come close to doing everything, but every year we can do a little bit more, and we can do that little bit more for a little less money.


----------



## Alexartist (Sep 21, 2021)

Dan said:


> Я только хотел бы, чтобы у струн был один или два дополнительных патча, чтобы заполнить пробел между легато и стаккато ... или какой-то патч для исполнения.


Exactly so! I bought. I tried it. Very good. But there are not enough legato types. And-exactly as you said. I confirm what was said))


----------



## korruptkey (Sep 22, 2021)

So I got the email for Berlin Inspire upgrade offer and they really only give you 1 day to take advantage of the intro + upgrade offer. While I do appreciate it (albeit, such a short time frame is likely a marketing strategy), it still seems strange to me that there isn't some sort of crossgrade offer for Berlin series owners. 

I gotta say... Hollywood OPUS offer is winning this round here.


----------



## jcrosby (Sep 22, 2021)

korruptkey said:


> So I got the email for Berlin Inspire upgrade offer and they really only give you 1 day to take advantage of the intro + upgrade offer. While I do appreciate it (albeit, such a short time frame is likely a marketing strategy), it still seems strange to me that there isn't some sort of crossgrade offer for Berlin series owners.
> 
> I gotta say... Hollywood OPUS offer is winning this round here.


There is, at least from what they've posted that sounds like it is the case... Normally it would be 200 off for BOI (same as the intro price.) But you can stack your discount with the intro offer until tomorrow for a total of 400 off, or use the BOI discount afterward without the intro discount added...
(At least if I understand their posts about pricing correctly...)

Last week they said they weren't doing the BOI discount until after intro pricing. So while it is a tight window for sure, it's a lot better than what they had originally said would happen...


----------



## korruptkey (Sep 22, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> There is, at least from what they've posted that sounds like it is the case... Normally it would be 200 off for BOI (same as the intro price.) But you can stack your discount with the intro offer until tomorrow for a total of 400 off, or use the BOI discount afterward without the intro discount added...
> (At least if I understand their posts about pricing correctly...)
> 
> Last week they said they weren't doing the BOI discount until after intro pricing. So while it is a tight window for sure, it's a lot better than what they had originally said would happen...


Yes, I do recall that they said something along the lines of BOI discount not happening until the 23rd because "discounts and intro offers don't play nice". I'm wondering if they are discovering the number of preorders have been low. It would only make sense to capture this market because without the combo pricing. I'd never consider this. With it... MAYBE. The short time frame likely will push many people like me over the edge.


----------



## jcrosby (Sep 23, 2021)

korruptkey said:


> Yes, I do recall that they said something along the lines of BOI discount not happening until the 23rd because "discounts and intro offers don't play nice". I'm wondering if they are discovering the number of preorders have been low. It would only make sense to capture this market because without the combo pricing. I'd never consider this. With it... MAYBE. The short time frame likely will push many people like me over the edge.


Considering the amount of students that have probably ordered this already I'd imagine they've sold a decent number of copies already. As far as why - it could be that a lot of disgruntled owners of various products emailed support... That's my guess at least...

And more often than not people in this thread seem to be ignoring what it means that this was made specifically for Berklee. OT simply do not need to sweat sales of this library. Having your software accepted as part of a curriculum is a software developer's best case scenario. Not only is it guaranteed revenue, it's revenue that comes in year over year... That means more investment to pay for future projects; and knock on wood, more streamlined development...

I cracked and bought it, not regrets at all.... Not only does it have incredible separation between instruments, a pre-balanced and well separated library's a timesaver for work... Don't get me wrong, I can balance and mix an orchestra perfectly fine, but little things like this add up to extra bits of time you can use to focus on something else, moving onto other cues, etc...

The demo that I found most useful was actually Don Bodin's review... He does a mock up of Beethoven's 5th. (The stabs in the beginning could be bolder for sure... But there are tons of ways to accomplish this with layering...)


----------



## korruptkey (Sep 23, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> Considering the amount of students that have probably ordered this already I'd imagine they've sold a decent number of copies already. As far as why - it could be that a lot of disgruntled owners of various products emailed support... That's my guess at least...
> 
> And more often than not people in this thread seem to be ignoring what it means that this was made specifically for Berklee. OT simply do not need to sweat sales of this library. Having your software accepted as part of a curriculum is a software developer's best case scenario. Not only is it guaranteed revenue, it's revenue that comes in year over year... That means more investment to pay for future projects; and knock on wood, more streamlined development...
> 
> ...



I meant outside of students market, they probably had low preorders. And since its a repackaged product, capturing that tiny bit more if preorders likely isn't hurting them. As I said earlier, I do hope that this is something they'll keep up to date since it is made for Berklee. Unlike their other products where updates are almost non existent or ridiculously slow.


----------



## Oxytoxine (Sep 23, 2021)

Tatatataaaaa - finally, a walkthrough of the instruments and sections has appeared:


----------



## Paul Jelfs (Sep 23, 2021)

Going to repeat it again, in the hope that O.T. see this - Please please add run patches to the strings! (And maybe portamento too!)


----------



## Alexartist (Sep 23, 2021)

Paul Jelfs said:


> Please please add run patches to the strings! (And maybe portamento too!)


I repeat: "Please please add run patches to the strings! (And maybe portamento too!)"


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Sep 23, 2021)

Can anyone play some of the contrabassoon and bass clarinet staccatos?

I wonder if they will give us more unreleased mics in BWW exp since that's what happened to the legacy instruments ported to revive


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 23, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> Considering the amount of students that have probably ordered this already I'd imagine they've sold a decent number of copies already. As far as why - it could be that a lot of disgruntled owners of various products emailed support... That's my guess at least...
> 
> And more often than not people in this thread seem to be ignoring what it means that this was made specifically for Berklee. OT simply do not need to sweat sales of this library. Having your software accepted as part of a curriculum is a software developer's best case scenario. Not only is it guaranteed revenue, it's revenue that comes in year over year... That means more investment to pay for future projects; and knock on wood, more streamlined development...
> 
> ...



That review actually convinced me that i made the right choice skipping it and going with the actual full libraries. There are moments where the string sustains almost sound like an accordion--something I've never heard in any demos, reviews, or walkthroughs of the full library. I think it's just not enough articulations and options for some of these instruments.


----------



## Cormast (Sep 23, 2021)

Dan said:


> I bought Berlin Orchestra on Friday and since then played around with it in my spare time – just writing whatever came into my mind and trying out different orchestrations etc. to see how things sound. This is the result so far. No ensemble patches were used for brass and woodwinds, only the different soloists.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fantastic composition !


----------



## Pixelpoet1985 (Sep 23, 2021)

Oxytoxine said:


> Tatatataaaaa - finally, a walkthrough of the instruments and sections has appeared:



Disappointing… Nearly the same as in Hendrik‘s walkthrough and also the same talking. I wanted to hear every instrument.


----------



## juliandoe (Sep 24, 2021)

Does anyone know if there will be available single instruments for purchase?


----------



## holywilly (Sep 24, 2021)

juliandoe said:


> Does anyone know if there will be available single instruments for purchase?


I’m afraid there’s no a La carte for Berlin orchestra. All instruments are available if you buy this collection.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Sep 24, 2021)

I've been checking my email religiously waiting for this to be added to my sine account

Free stuff can't come soon enough


----------



## juliandoe (Sep 24, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I’m afraid there’s no a La carte for Berlin orchestra. All instruments are available if you buy this collection.


That's sad. I really believe that the possibility to buy single instruments is what makes OT stands out. It's great for us because we can pick and choose whatever we want whenever we need it, or build a library buying one instrument at a time. It's great for them because single instruments are more expensive, create brand loyalty, and represent "leaders" for their collection.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Sep 24, 2021)

juliandoe said:


> That's sad. I really believe that the possibility to buy single instruments is what makes OT stands out. It's great for us because we can pick and choose whatever we want whenever we need it, or build a library buying one instrument at a time. It's great for them because single instruments are more expensive, create brand loyalty, and represent "leaders" for their collection.


There's still a chance it'll be available, iirc most of the time it's not until sales are over. 

I could be wrong, but that's what my memory says


----------



## Getsumen (Sep 24, 2021)

juliandoe said:


> That's sad. I really believe that the possibility to buy single instruments is what makes OT stands out. It's great for us because we can pick and choose whatever we want whenever we need it, or build a library buying one instrument at a time. It's great for them because single instruments are more expensive, create brand loyalty, and represent "leaders" for their collection.


Single instruments for the main Berlin Series will definitely be a thing though I believe


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 24, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Single instruments for the main Berlin Series will definitely be a thing though I believe


I can’t see how this is useful for the main Berlin series. I understand this for something like Phoenix where maybe you only need a couple of Chinese instruments and not the entire library, but not for the Berlin series. Does anyone really imagine themselves buying just the Violas from Strings or Horn 3 from Brass?

I think it is disappointing they aren’t selling the Berlin Orchestra instruments a la carte because they would probably be priced way more affordably than the individual Berlin series instruments will be due to the reduced articulations and single mix.


----------



## juliandoe (Sep 24, 2021)

pandamacion said:


> Does anyone really imagine themselves buying just the Violas from Strings or Horn 3 from Brass?


Yes, absolutely. One example can be a composer that in his template has some weak spots and wants to fill it with instruments from the berlin series. He doesn't need all the orchestra but only a few instruments. Another option can be a composer that can't afford the entire price in one solution but can plan to buy only a couple of instruments a month. Thirdly, a composer may need just a single instrument. How many sample libraries are made by just one instrument? the difference is that with OT you have good quality at a fair price when buying single instruments.


----------



## RogiervG (Sep 25, 2021)

Oxytoxine said:


> Tatatataaaaa - finally, a walkthrough of the instruments and sections has appeared:



the oboe sounds very thin, and just cold. (very cold (no emotion), while it can sound very warm (with emotion). ) Is this really from their berlin ww package? if so, i am stunned with the dead sound of it.
It is not good for soloist work, unlike their soloists offering, which does sound broader and warm.

Their trumpet legato showcased here is also weak sounding (rompler, odd attack, weird crossfade like almost). again not suitable for solo use. Or it needs a lot of cc adjustments, that cannot be done realtime, to make it sound convincing

Maybe they have shaved too much away from the orginal samples/patches, and made them worse sounding? I have no idea, since i do not have Berlin series to compare.

The strings are the best of the bunch, as for this showcase anyway.


----------



## Oxytoxine (Sep 25, 2021)

Generally agreed, but the single instruments seem way overpriced when compared with the full bundle and especially other options. Wouldn't such a composer that can't afford the whole price be way better off to buy a whole section from another vendor for the price of one Berlin instrument? I really can't imagine that this à la carte concept as it is will sell very well. Especially considering that Berlin seems to make way more sense when buying into the whole ecosystem / Teldex - in my opinion there are tons of better options for single instruments / sections. 

Concretely: I just got Berlin Orchestra, which together with the Inspires or even on it's own seems to make for a nice, although very basic and slimmed down whole orchestra. But frankly, the single instruments are so reduced and really nothing special - I would never buy them on their own, there are much more comprehensive and probably objectively "better" options out there for a similar or even cheaper price if the intention is to piece together your own orchestra from different vendors. 

Honestly I was even very disappointed at first when only playing with the single instruments - not only are there astounding quality control issues given OTs high end reputation (e.g. metallic clonks, background noises, strange dynamic jumps in some patches, some wonky transitions etc. - completely normal, is the case with almost any lib), but the instruments are also very basic. But other things seem to be really nice; I very much like how the whole orchestra gels / blends together, "instrument separation" is very nice, and the whole thing seems to be nicely balanced out of the box. Brass and some woods are lovely. Anyway, I just wanted to make the point that - for me (of course all of this is highly subjective) - this makes much more sense as a whole package. But of course this may be very different for another person


----------



## Oxytoxine (Sep 25, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> the oboe sounds very thin, and just cold. (very cold (no emotion), while it can sound very warm (with emotion). ) Is this really from their berlin ww package? if so, i am stunned with the dead sound of it.
> It is not good for soloist work, unlike their soloists offering, which does sound broader and warm.
> 
> Their trumpet legato showcased here is also weak sounding (rompler, odd attack, weird crossfade like almost). again not suitable for solo use. Or it needs a lot of cc adjustments, that cannot be done realtime, to make it sound convincing
> ...


I have only first impressions (a whole night with it), but I come to very similar conclusions. I have to say that this is - besides JXL - my first "bigger" OT product, and I was also wondering about the static, "cold" nature of many patches - attributes that people usually use for VSL. I can also second some very odd attack choices - e.g. the solo cello has a very strange volume jump which may work in 1 out of 100 phrases, but ruins the instrument for me, etc., and it does not seems possible to remedy it. 

Funnily, you like the strings the most - for me they are the biggest disappointment. Also surprising to me are some strange artifacts / noises in some patches. On the positive side, I like how things blend / come together while retaining much separation / clarity, at least when compared to my other whole orchestra (BBCSO Pro), which feels often somewhat muddy and not well "defined" to me. 

The Berlin series was too expensive for me when starting out and I was under the impression that this is the real high end stuff, so all in all at the moment I am still somewhat disappointed. But on the positive side: although it was a very expensive trial and error process I can now at least form my own opinion, and my appreciation for some of the other stuff I already have (way too much) has skyrocketed (now I don't have the feeling anymore that the grass is so much greener on the other side - that these expensive libs are somehow way superior and that I could write better music with them). 

My plan is to use Berlin Orchestra in conjunction with the Inspires as a backbone, to give a sonic imprint / fill the piece with Teldex hall, but fill in and / or substitute the rest with instruments that are more to my flavor and allow me to be more expressive. Preliminary testing shows for me that it seems to blend nicely with Abbey road one (which I got for the same purpose - problem is that this is even more backbone at the moment), so in a way it was not only wasted money.


----------



## RogiervG (Sep 25, 2021)

Oxytoxine said:


> Funnily, you like the strings the most - for me they are the biggest disappointment.



Well, my conclusion on the strings is purely based on the walkthrough/showcase. as he played it that is. 
Not sure how it works out, owning them ofcourse. They might be weaker than the demo suggests.
And the strings are not "wow" by any means, but of the sounds i've heard being played, they are the better ones.


As this is an official showcase, it should point out the good things about the sounds/instruments. 
But it shows more cons than pros to me.


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 25, 2021)

@Oxytoxine Thanks for the review. I’m trying to decide between BBCSO Core and Berlin (don’t need Pro since I don’t have the space for all the mic positions). It’s disappointing to hear that you’ve found inconsistencies in Berlin. I was wondering if the extra dynamic layers and the individual instruments made up for the difference in price. but it sounds like what some in this thread have said are correct about BBCSO Core being the better option.


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 25, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> the oboe sounds very thin, and just cold. (very cold (no emotion), while it can sound very warm (with emotion). ) Is this really from their berlin ww package? if so, i am stunned with the dead sound of it.
> It is not good for soloist work, unlike their soloists offering, which does sound broader and warm.
> 
> Their trumpet legato showcased here is also weak sounding (rompler, odd attack, weird crossfade like almost). again not suitable for solo use. Or it needs a lot of cc adjustments, that cannot be done realtime, to make it sound convincing
> ...


I don’t think they are meant to be true “solo” instruments considering that OT also has 2 Soloists libraries for woodwinds in addition to Berlin Woodwinds. I think in one of the other videos, they mentioned that the individual instruments are not meant to be solo instruments and are included so students can write more accurate divisi sections.


----------



## Oxytoxine (Sep 25, 2021)

pandamacion said:


> @Oxytoxine Thanks for the review. I’m trying to decide between BBCSO Core and Berlin (don’t need Pro since I don’t have the space for all the mic positions). It’s disappointing to hear that you’ve found inconsistencies in Berlin. I was wondering if the extra dynamic layers and the individual instruments made up for the difference in price. but it sounds like what some in this thread have said are correct about BBCSO Core being the better option.


Uh, that is a difficult choice you have there! Honestly, you will probably only know which one fits you better when you have them under your fingers, at least this is how it works for me. And I imagine that you also might come to the conclusion that you could actually use both, depending on what you would like to write 


Don’t let my comment regarding inconsistencies influence your decision too much - it’s "complaining on a high level", and also the same with BBC, only they affect different things. 

I assume you have already screened some threads about BBC - for example the timing of the short strings is very inconsistent, the brass lacks ff and especially the horn is really bad, etc. BUT: Will this affect you? For example the problem with the shorts only becomes noticeable when you write fast ostinatos / lines and need really tight timing, but for slow to moderate tempo pieces that use more the longer articulations - no problem! And the sound of the Spitfire shorts is to die for. The same for the brass - do you write epic trailer music and really need screaming ff horns? Then forget about BBC. But for more traditional, „mellower“ writing, the brass is beautiful (if you can live with the lack of dynamic layers). And indeed: Berlin has more dynamic layers than BBC, which sorely lacks in this department. The dynamic transitions are very audible (if one is used to this stuff - if you are rather new in this journey, chances are high that one that does not even notice such things), but again: depending on the desired style of music, this is not even noticeable and in a way might be even an advantage, because it restricts the „dynamic spectrum“ one can use and helps to bring the whole orchestra together in a cohesive manner. 

If you already have a clear picture of which kind of music you like to write, I would base my decision more on this. 

BBC was recorded in a big hall and in my opinion lends itself more to „traditional“ classical music. In no way small and chamber, but also not big and epic. But then: if you listen to some of the demos for BBC e.g. on the spitfire side: people knowing what they do can even write really bombastic themes with BBC, it's impressive!

Berlin seems to be an interesting middle ground, due to smaller section sizes (rather „intimate“ - not really chamber, but „smaller“ - sound, but can also be used for huge upfront orchestral stuff) and having less hall in the recordings. It has a more direct, upfront sound, which fits certain scenarios perfectly, but for other stuff something like BBC would be more adequate (especially since there are no mic options in Berlin Orchestra).

Both are superb products and will enable you to make fantastic music. 


Good luck!


----------



## Oxytoxine (Sep 25, 2021)

pandamacion said:


> I don’t think they are meant to be true “solo” instruments considering that OT also has 2 Soloists libraries for woodwinds in addition to Berlin Woodwinds. I think in one of the other videos, they mentioned that the individual instruments are not meant to be solo instruments and are included so students can write more accurate divisi sections.


I don't know from which main lib they took the woods in the Inspires, but they for sure sound different than those in Berlin Orchestra, which indeed seem not to be intended as real solo instruments (which is also the case for the solo strings and brass). Actually, I find the woods in the Inspires to be more "airy" and, from a purely sonical perspective, more lovely. But the ones in Berlin Orchestra have more dynamic layers.


----------



## RogiervG (Sep 25, 2021)

pandamacion said:


> I don’t think they are meant to be true “solo” instruments considering that OT also has 2 Soloists libraries for woodwinds in addition to Berlin Woodwinds. I think in one of the other videos, they mentioned that the individual instruments are not meant to be solo instruments and are included so students can write more accurate divisi sections.



I see..  
Make sense, indeed. (solo work : soloist libs)
However, i thought the berlin ww lib had better woods? (oboe e.g.) that could do solo work, albeit less detailed than the soloists version? or is the BOB version almost identically thin/cold?


----------



## Pixelpoet1985 (Sep 25, 2021)

Oxytoxine said:


> Concretely: I just got Berlin Orchestra, which together with the Inspires or even on it's own seems to make for a nice, although very basic and slimmed down whole orchestra. But frankly, the single instruments are so reduced and really nothing special - I would never buy them on their own, there are much more comprehensive and probably objectively "better" options out there for a similar or even cheaper price if the intention is to piece together your own orchestra from different vendors.
> 
> Honestly I was even very disappointed at first when only playing with the single instruments - not only are there astounding quality control issues given OTs high end reputation (e.g. metallic clonks, background noises, strange dynamic jumps in some patches, some wonky transitions etc. - completely normal, is the case with almost any lib), but the instruments are also very basic. But other things seem to be really nice; I very much like how the whole orchestra gels / blends together, "instrument separation" is very nice, and the whole thing seems to be nicely balanced out of the box. Brass and some woods are lovely. Anyway, I just wanted to make the point that - for me (of course all of this is highly subjective) - this makes much more sense as a whole package. But of course this may be very different for another person


Thanks for the review! I'm still deciding whether to get it with the student discount later. Maybe I will pull the trigger on the bigger libraries as soon as they are released in SINE.

I'm fine with the articulations in this collection. Comparing them to the bigger libraries I can't seem such a huge difference, to be honest. Together with the various attack types they primarily omitted the dynamics/swells as well as the repetitions/double tonguing patches. First Chairs are, surprisingly, quite comprehensive. If they only implemented a fast legato and a portamento for the strings...

I was quite shocked that Berlin (Symphonic) Strings doesn't have much more articulations to offer. Of course, you have a huge list of articulations, but it's merely variations (spiccatos, trems etc.). You need the "special bow" expansions for the other stuff – quite expensive. Would have been a great opportunity to merge the three, but the expansions are already ported to SINE and bundled with the first chairs. Doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## Bernard Duc (Sep 25, 2021)

Oxytoxine said:


> I have only first impressions (a whole night with it), but I come to very similar conclusions. I have to say that this is - besides JXL - my first "bigger" OT product, and I was also wondering about the static, "cold" nature of many patches - attributes that people usually use for VSL. I can also second some very odd attack choices - e.g. the solo cello has a very strange volume jump which may work in 1 out of 100 phrases, but ruins the instrument for me, etc., and it does not seems possible to remedy it.
> 
> Funnily, you like the strings the most - for me they are the biggest disappointment. Also surprising to me are some strange artifacts / noises in some patches. On the positive side, I like how things blend / come together while retaining much separation / clarity, at least when compared to my other whole orchestra (BBCSO Pro), which feels often somewhat muddy and not well "defined" to me.
> 
> ...


That's the way I used to feel with every "big" purchase I made when I was starting out (not saying you're starting out, I simply don't buy that many VI anymore): I would have high hopes and expectations at the beginning, often from listening to the demos and reading reviews, and I would imagine all the glorious music I would write with my new purchase. Then, when I would finally get to use it, I would usually be disappointed because I would hear all kind of inconsistencies and limitations. Finally, in the third phase, I would simply see the library for what it is: a combination of patches that have shine in some contexts but are limited in other contexts, and I would use it for its strength while looking to complement its weak points with my next purchase.... which would start a new cycle.


----------



## pandamacion (Sep 25, 2021)

Oxytoxine said:


> The dynamic transitions are very audible (if one is used to this stuff - if you are rather new in this journey, chances are high that one that does not even notice such things)


Are you referring to the BBCSO transitions or the Berlin’s, or perhaps both?

Anyway, thank you so much for such a comprehensive response. I’ll no doubt return to it as I continue to agonize over the decision.

You mentioned the poor horn patch in BBCSO. Didn’t they fix that in 1.2? I remember in the update demo video, the first instrument they played was the solo horn. They knew what the biggest flaw was. 

I don’t write trailer music, so no problem there with BBCSO. But so many of the BBCSO demos I’ve found are the slower, traditional sound you describe, and I’d like something that is capable of handling more traditional film style action music like Williams, Goldsmith, McCreary or Powell.

I did find a video from Jack McKenzie on YouTube doing a mockup of one of John Powell’s sction cues from Solo using mostly BBCSO and it sounded good, but he subbed out the brass for CineBrass, and getting BBCSO and CineBrass Pro/Core would bring the price above Berlin even with discounts.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 25, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> I see..
> Make sense, indeed. (solo work : soloist libs)
> However, i thought the berlin ww lib had better woods? (oboe e.g.) that could do solo work, albeit less detailed than the soloists version? or is the BOB version almost identically thin/cold?


The full library of Berlin Woodwinds sounds really beautiful and expressive. I'm not sure what was slimmed down for Berlin Orchestra


----------



## JTB (Sep 25, 2021)

Can't imagine trying to construct a realistic passage with one sustain patch. Those poor students have been handicapped from the get-go.


----------



## daviddln (Sep 25, 2021)

I have been playing with it for a week now and here is what I think. Percussion, Strings and Woodwinds are great but Brass are disappointing. They are poorly edited with a lot of tuning issues. The weird thing is that those issues don't appear in Berlin Brass. That's very frustrating.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 25, 2021)

daviddln said:


> I have been playing with it for a week now and here is what I think. Percussion, Strings and Woodwinds are great but Brass are disappointing. They are poorly edited with a lot of tuning issues. The weird thing is that those issues don't appear in Berlin Brass. That's very frustrating.


Now I'm starting to get worried about the future SINE ports of the Berlin Series.


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 25, 2021)

RedDot said:


> Now I'm starting to get worried about the future SINE ports of the Berlin Series.


The existing ports have been excellent, and for the versions I have in Kontakt I uniformly prefer the Sine versions for sound and scripting. I only have the woodwind soloists in Sine, and I find that a more difficult library to work with. For one thing they didn’t include the Teldex Reverb impulse like the Kontakt version has so it takes work to get the libraries to sit, and I haven’t yet found the right reverb set up where I like the sound. This is likely user error except I’m not having these issues with OT’s new saxes, which were recorded in the same room.


----------



## daviddln (Sep 25, 2021)

RedDot said:


> Now I'm starting to get worried about the future SINE ports of the Berlin Series.


Yes, me too.


----------



## Nimrod7 (Nov 20, 2021)

Did I read somewhere whoever owns the Berlin Collection, will get access to Berlin Orchestra?
That will be convenient for a lightweight laptop install if that's the case.


----------



## holywilly (Nov 20, 2021)

Folks, now my GAS for complete Berlin series is going strong. 

I have the Berlin Orchestra (with Berklee), BBCSO, and Synchron Orchestra (less the woodwinds which is not yet released), I just got Berlin Strings (SINE) and I have the urge to complete the Berlin series collection simply because I am able to create my own mix of instruments via multiple mic positions, and also addition articulations that are missing from Berlin Orchestra. 

Should I really go for it? Or save for something else?

Arhhhhh…..


----------



## chrisav (Nov 20, 2021)

Similar struggles here! I don't have any Berlin packs already, but I have all the Arks and wouldn't mind more detailed sections to blend with them, especially in the realms of strings and woodwinds...


----------



## Casiquire (Nov 20, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Folks, now my GAS for complete Berlin series is going strong.
> 
> I have the Berlin Orchestra (with Berklee), BBCSO, and Synchron Orchestra (less the woodwinds which is not yet released), I just got Berlin Strings (SINE) and I have the urge to complete the Berlin series collection simply because I am able to create my own mix of instruments via multiple mic positions, and also addition articulations that are missing from Berlin Orchestra.
> 
> ...


I'm a pretty big fan of them. It sounds like you have good libraries already but if you like the flavor of the Berklee one i don't see why you wouldn't want more control!


----------



## dannesand (Nov 20, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Folks, now my GAS for complete Berlin series is going strong.
> 
> I have the Berlin Orchestra (with Berklee), BBCSO, and Synchron Orchestra (less the woodwinds which is not yet released), I just got Berlin Strings (SINE) and I have the urge to complete the Berlin series collection simply because I am able to create my own mix of instruments via multiple mic positions, and also addition articulations that are missing from Berlin Orchestra.
> 
> ...


If you like Berlin Strings, I think having all 4 Main libraries is the way to go! I have them all since earlier, and I love the room sound and all the articulations they offer. My favorites are Berlin Strings and Berlin Percussion in particular.


----------



## Marsen (Nov 20, 2021)

Nimrod7 said:


> Did I read somewhere whoever owns the Berlin Collection, will get access to Berlin Orchestra?
> That will be convenient for a lightweight laptop install if that's the case.


Yep.
I don't know if it also counts for new purchases, but owning the collection already made be qualify fore getting BO.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Nov 20, 2021)

If buying the full bundle collection I'd definitely want the Berlin Orchestra for Laptop use but I'd also want a copy of the Kontakt versions.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 20, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Folks, now my GAS for complete Berlin series is going strong.
> 
> I have the Berlin Orchestra (with Berklee), BBCSO, and Synchron Orchestra (less the woodwinds which is not yet released), I just got Berlin Strings (SINE) and I have the urge to complete the Berlin series collection simply because I am able to create my own mix of instruments via multiple mic positions, and also addition articulations that are missing from Berlin Orchestra.
> 
> ...


Go for it


----------



## Michael Antrum (Nov 20, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Folks, now my GAS for complete Berlin series is going strong.
> 
> I have the Berlin Orchestra (with Berklee), BBCSO, and Synchron Orchestra (less the woodwinds which is not yet released), I just got Berlin Strings (SINE) and I have the urge to complete the Berlin series collection simply because I am able to create my own mix of instruments via multiple mic positions, and also addition articulations that are missing from Berlin Orchestra.
> 
> ...



Honestly not sure what you are missing with all those libraries you already have. As long as you don’t need the money for anything else, then sure, why not.

Just make sure these are not just going to end up sitting on your sample drive.


----------



## galactic orange (Nov 20, 2021)

Nimrod7 said:


> Did I read somewhere whoever owns the Berlin Collection, will get access to Berlin Orchestra?
> That will be convenient for a lightweight laptop install if that's the case.


Some Berlin Collection owners have said they received an email about December 6th. I have owned all the Berlin Mains for a while and registered them with SINE, however I got no such e-mail about receiving Berlin Orchestra for free.

Edit: I eventually got the e-mail, but it took so long that I wondered if I would miss out on getting Berlin Orchestra.


----------



## holywilly (Nov 20, 2021)

Thanks for all the inputs, the discount plus voucher for BO owner is hard to resist, I guess I’m going for it. Berlin strings just play so well to accompany with VSL’s Synchron, there’s no reason why not to get them!

I have a dedicated 2TB SSD for Orchestral Tools, SINE libraries since the release of JXL Brass.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 30, 2021)

Anyone venture into discovering OT Berlin Orch. Berklee (BOB) yet ? 

What are the overall impressions of this library, i.e. compared Berlin Main Library, and Orchestral Libraries from other developers ? Is the one mic option very restricting, or can you get a full sounding arrangement happening with just one Mic ? ..etc. 

I got it for free, but haven't had the time to discover it yet, so if anyone had spent some quality time with it, I'm very keen on knowing your thoughts about it.


----------



## RSK (Dec 30, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I got it for free, but haven't had the time to discover it yet, so if anyone had spent some quality time with it, I'm very keen on knowing your thoughts about it.


If you got it for free that means you have all four of the Berlin series. You'll find that BOB is basically the same material with fewer articulations.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 30, 2021)

RSK said:


> If you got it for free that means you have all four of the Berlin series. You'll find that BOB is basically the same material with fewer articulations.


Thanks. Yes, and only one mic option. 

Simplicity, is a good thing, less details to deal with, that's why I think this is a valuable library to have. Plus it's low on RAM footprint, and easy to work with.


----------



## RSK (Dec 30, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Thanks. Yes, and only one mic option.
> 
> Simplicity, is a good thing, less details to deal with, that's why I think this is a valuable library to have. Plus it's low on RAM footprint, and easy to work with.


No doubt, and I said earlier in this thread that BOB should be on a very short list for people just starting out or needing the most bang for the buck. 

But you have the complete Berlin series. Just sayin'.


----------



## PaulieDC (Dec 31, 2021)

RSK said:


> No doubt, and I said earlier in this thread that BOB should be on a very short list for people just starting out or needing the most bang for the buck.
> 
> But you have the complete Berlin series. Just sayin'.


There is a bonus to the free BOB if you own the Berlin Main, I got the Bass Clarinet and Contrabassoon I wanted without having to buy the Woodwinds Additional Instruments module. But I guess that's only a bonus to the six of us that actually like woodwinds. 🤣


----------



## Getsumen (Dec 31, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> There is a bonus to the free BOB if you own the Berlin Main, I got the Bass Clarinet and Contrabassoon I wanted without having to buy the Woodwinds Additional Instruments module. But I guess that's only a bonus to the six of us that actually like woodwinds. 🤣


Also get the solo strings and harp!


----------



## PaulieDC (Dec 31, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Also get the solo strings and harp!


Right!! 👍🏼


----------

