# Moving away from Ableton (or am I?)



## DerGeist (Apr 4, 2019)

Hi everyone, my name is DerGeist and I do orchestral scoring in Ableton Live. I recognize that it is a bit of an outlier in the orchestral world but I know it well and the bundled instruments and fx have served me well. Lately I have been a bit restless and have started to wonder if I'm missing out on something that would serve me better. 

I'm not unsatisfied with live but I never use the clip view or most of the more loop based features. I also find envelopes, editing, etc. a bit fiddly. Otherwise I'm a fan.

But, am I fan because I don't know that there is something that suits my needs better? I mostly play orchestral parts with a keyboard and record as midi. I don't compose in the piano roll but I will do a lot of midi editing as required.

Am I missing out? What am I missing out on? Am I just looking for an excuse to spend money? Help me VI control!


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## Manaberry (Apr 4, 2019)

I was using Ableton before, for my orchestral stuff (now I use it only for band purpose). 
I switched to Cubase Pro (feat. VEP) because of few things:

- Advanced midi edition
- Track versioning
- Remote controller editor
- Expression maps / Drum maps / Score editor
- Chords pads
- Video features
- VST3 (Ableton took so much time to make this happen)
- A more customizable UI
- Marker system

There is some other stuff I missed to write down but the overall is here. 
Obviously it was my needs. You have to find what's yours. 
I miss the renaming of automation lane from Ableton to be honest..


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## MillsMixx (Apr 4, 2019)

I'm not an EDM producer but I absolutely love Ableton I am one of the few people on this forum that uses it for composing. 

Most people here use Cubase and I upgraded to Cubase Pro a couple years ago and while I like it, I still seem to come back to Ableton for putting my song ideas together quickly and easily. The session view is an amazing way for me to get the ball rolling right away. I guess I just know it better and find I can work faster and get ideas together much easier. 

Unlike what other people have said about the piano roll differences I find it much easier to work with midi as well. That's just me of course and how I roll. I'm not one of these guys that has a huge template but sort of create it as I go and love all the features that it has to offer. 

It's a completely different approach to working and it took me a while to figure out but once I wrapped my brain around it I now love it and I'm excited about some of the new features that are coming out in the new Ableton 10 update.

Daniel James and some others on this forum started out using Ableton (still using it for sound design) and then switched to Cubase. He has a good video out about that if you search for it as it explains the differences and why.

For me Cubase Pro is harder to grasp than Ableton because it offers so many, many features! but that's just how my mind and workflow works. Like people have said it's whatever DAW works best for YOU to make you the most productive.

That being said I still try to try to spend an equal amount of time in both DAWs and continue to learn in Cubase, it just comes harder for me than Ableton. For me it's sort of like Photoshop, a beast of DAW that will do anything but there's quite a learning curve.


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## paulmatthew (Apr 4, 2019)

The biggest problem for me with Ableton it that the track headers cannot be on the left side of the screen and makes it clunky . They really need to add customizable options to the daw .


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## DerGeist (Apr 4, 2019)

MillsMixx said:


> I'm not an EDM producer but I absolutely love Ableton I am one of the few people on this forum that uses it for composing.
> 
> Most people here use Cubase and I upgraded to Cubase Pro a couple years ago and while I like it, I still seem to come back to Ableton for putting my song ideas together quickly and easily. The session view is an amazing way for me to get the ball rolling right away. I guess I just know it better and find I can work faster and get ideas together much easier.
> 
> ...



This has kind of my feeling as well. So far I have had no issues with Ableton and am not sure I would be faster or better using anything else. My only real gripe with Ableton is not being able to rename midi ins, the zoom in an out which never does what I want (i know this is a user issue), and a few other small issues. I wouldn't want to be without the midi clip multi edit from Live 10.

Part of me has always wanted to try digital performer but it looks like it might make my life harder rather than easier.

If you haven't tried it, the free (if you have Live suite) convolution reverb is as good or better than anything else I have tried.

https://www.ableton.com/en/packs/convolution-reverb/


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## InLight-Tone (Apr 4, 2019)

I have both Live and Cubase Pro 10 which I am pretty fluent in. Ableton has some strong advantages that many overlook.

-Racks!: The ability to layer instruments on a single track, which many of us do, instead of separate tracks is huge. Add to that the ability to use any number of midi, and/or audio processors, Live is really a modular synth/composition system in itself.

-Browser: The browser is far more speedy & functional than Cubases clunky MediaBay. Setup your own presets in folders like a big virtual template 

-Max4Live: Allows you to customize the program with your own features, midi edit routines, plugins or whatever you fancy. The sky's the limit including video as well.

-Session view and clips: The ability to access any clip or song section/scene in any order and combination helps immensely when sketching and the beginning development of a track. 

-Push 2: I consider the Push a MUST if using Live as it really allows the program to shine. It allows you to access EVERY midiFX, instrument, insert and send from a hardware unit and tweak and automate to your hearts content. Many hardware controllers exist for Cubase like CC121, but the amount of control over your sound is elementary compared to the deep diving you can do with Push. 

Push Sequencing: It also does step sequencing and drum sequencing well, far superior to Maschine and Cubases Beat designer. There are a million Max4Live devices for programming interesting drum sequences.


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## pottering (Apr 5, 2019)

Nicholas Britell got indicated for the Oscar 2 times and is a Live user.

https://www.fastcompany.com/9029656...cholas-britells-experimental-creative-process

Ludwig Göransson won the Oscar this year with Black Panther, here is an interview with him showing a track in Ableton Live (at 3:25)



Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross won the Oscar in 2010 with The Social Network, this NY Times interview states it was recorded entirely in Trent's home studio, in which the computer screen shows Ableton Live (at 2:48):



(It shows "electronic music" doesn't oppose "movie scoring".)

Jóhann Jóhannsson (RIP), Oscar-nominated 2 times

http://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2017/01/johann-johannsson-feature

Much like it happened in other music genres, Ableton Live went from being treated as a joke and having zero presence in movie scoring, to 2 of 5 composers nominated to the Oscar this year (including the winner) being Ableton Live users. Not saying this number will continue rising, but Live is demonstrably usable for movie or game scoring.

Maybe Live is not "ideal" for movie scoring, but it sure won't stop you from being a successful composer.


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## brenneisen (Apr 5, 2019)

pottering said:


> Ludwig Göransson



and DP



pottering said:


> Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross



and PT



pottering said:


> Jóhann Jóhannsson (RIP), Oscar-nominated 2 times



and Cubase


the point? Live is awesome as a secondary daw, has features that no other daw has; for media composers, though, it lacks important things (see @Manaberry's post but I'll add: macros, more zooming options, visibility agents, better mixer, better fx busses, better routing, VCA faders, surround, multiple midi lanes, 5,7,11tuplets)

now a pic of a lovely couple:


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## pottering (Apr 5, 2019)

brenneisen said:


> and DP
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't forget Nicholas Britell, 1 out of 5 Oscar nominees (if you want to dismiss Ludwig Göransson) is still pretty good for a DAW people openly treat as inferior in this forum.

But I don't accept the "secondary daw" characterization, that concept seems based completely on assumptions, none of the composers use terms like "secondary daw" nor talk about having such a hierarchy in their workflow.

Why even think in terms of "secondary" and "primary"?

Why did you even assume Live was not "equal" or even "primary" in their setups, assuming a hierarchy exists?

I mean, those links I posted are not marketing blurb interviews, those are interviews about other topics, where the composers mention or show Ableton Live completely unprompted.

And that list of composers above is not exhaustive, it was just the "easy names" I could google easily (from the Oscar nominees, a easy list of "successful composers").

There are other composers that use Live, people like Cliff Martinez and Alva Noto.


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## brenneisen (Apr 5, 2019)

pottering said:


> DAW people openly treat as inferior in this forum.



no one does that, keep your "haters" card in your pocket, please.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 5, 2019)

I'm a fan but as far as screen real estate it's small. The session view is great for testing out that new loop library. The annoying thing they put in 9 is the scanning of places. It reminds me of Gigastudio and also it takes up more drive space.
I don't really need to know what artists use a certain DAW to solve insecurity issues.

I have seen Mac users going more towards Logic for EDM as of late.

The only knock I have with Live is their Suite is a joke if you have previous versions of Suite. There's very little upgraded and I've had Suite since 8. I probably wont do the upgrade to Suite in the next version.


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## pottering (Apr 6, 2019)

brenneisen said:


> no one does that, keep your "haters" card in your pocket, please.



Really?

My perception was otherwise, but I could be wrong, of course.

I hope you are right.


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## krops (Apr 6, 2019)

kitekrazy said:


> The only knock I have with Live is their Suite is a joke if you have previous versions of Suite. There's very little upgraded and I've had Suite since 8. I probably wont do the upgrade to Suite in the next version.


Mind you, I haven't really given this much thought, but isn't the upgrade price from x Suite to x Suite reasonable enough? Is there considerable money to be saved by "down-upgrading" from, say, 9 Suite to 10 Standard?

Either way, it's easy to forget the potential added value of Max for Live. While I use 3rd party VSTs for most of my synth, sampler and processing needs, there are some instruments with a lot of potential in Suite (Tension, Collision, Operator; I find Operator a lot more intuitive than FM8).

I have a few gripes with Live's rudimentary MIDI editing (I really miss some shortcuts to split notes and align note start/end), but I would never want to start learning a new DAW when I know Live so well.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 6, 2019)

krops said:


> Mind you,* I haven't really given this much thought, but isn't the upgrade price from x Suite to x Suite reasonable enough?* Is there considerable money to be saved by "down-upgrading" from, say, 9 Suite to 10 Standard?
> 
> Either way, it's easy to forget the potential added value of Max for Live. While I use 3rd party VSTs for most of my synth, sampler and processing needs, there are some instruments with a lot of potential in Suite (Tension, Collision, Operator; I find Operator a lot more intuitive than FM8).
> 
> I have a few gripes with Live's rudimentary MIDI editing (I really miss some shortcuts to split notes and align note start/end), but I would never want to start learning a new DAW when I know Live so well.



Nope. Nothing really updated to justify that cost. 3rd party stuff is better. Max4Live is something you have to put some time in.


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## pottering (Apr 6, 2019)

Downgrading is a bad idea, mainly (but not only) because you will have trouble opening your past projects with 9 Suite content if you only have 10 Standard.

To me just the way Max For Live is much better integrated now in 10 was enough to justify the upgrade. Max For Live devices load just like VSTs now.

But Live 10 is really about loads of small improvements everywhere that people don't even notice consciously, not bullet-point list features (though it has those too, Echo and Wavetable are great)


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## kitekrazy (Apr 6, 2019)

pottering said:


> Downgrading is a bad idea, mainly (but not only) because you will have trouble opening your past projects with 9 Suite content if you only have 10 Standard.
> 
> To me just the way Max For Live is much better integrated now in 10 was enough to justify the upgrade. Max For Live devices load just like VSTs now.
> 
> But Live 10 is really about loads of small improvements everywhere that people don't even notice consciously, not bullet-point list features (though it has those too, Echo and Wavetable are great)



There is nothing I would miss. This has been discussed on Live's forum. You can access your Live 9 Suite in Live 10. I have Live 10 Suite and it will be my last Suite.


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## crd (Apr 6, 2019)

Is no one going to mention the number one flaw with using Ableton Live for scoring?? No time code/sync. That is kind of a deal breaker. I know there are work arounds with M4L devices but its crashy. I tried for months to make it work with Video Slave and it was literally hell on earth to get anything done. Also exporting MIDI was a pain. Ableton Live's work flow is still king for music non-synced to picture for me.

I can't imagine working without Cubase now that I've made the switch. However the day Reaper supports expression maps I will switch over to it as fast as possible.


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## Brian2112 (Apr 6, 2019)

I have developed a strange workflow. I boot up Ableton when I’m just screwing around on the piano. I use the capture midi thing if I accidentally play something cool. Then I move it to Studio One and rewire Ableton and screw around with the idea some more . Then if the idea is cool and getting to big, then it goes to Cubase 10 with VE Pro. 
Crazy I know.


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## Daniel James (Apr 6, 2019)

Hey,

I was a HUGE Ableton user (I worked on Metal Gear Solid V in Live) so its definitely possible.....it just doesn't make your life easy.

If you work primarily in musical sound design or hybrid music you will get a lot more from live but if you ever want to stray into orchestral mockups and 5.1 you are shit out of luck. It lacks even simple things like editing multiple midi clips at once (so if you have a section with 50 midi tracks stacked, you are gunna have to move those notes 50 fucking times xD)

If you want to score movies I really recommend trying something like Cubase, Logic, DP... something with great midi editing functions, score editors, dedicated mixing windows, 5.1 support etc. All of these things need workarounds in Ableton Live and you just have to ask yourself the question I did, is it worth the wasted time.

Cubase for me was the obvious choice because it was already up to a high standard in terms of the way I work with audio and it also had a function to create custom key commands, so I was able to change cubase commands to the ones I prefer from Ableton Live. It almost felt like Live sometimes xD

I see some people above pointing to all of the people who successfully use Live for movies, but from my own personal experience I wouldn't even want to anymore, I would waste so much time doing pointless shit that is just made easy for me in a DAW designed for writing music first and formost. If you look at ableton lives updates and new features, film composers are clearly not a focus.

So yeah you can stick to live if you want but trust me if you want to get into orchestral shit, the grass is most certainly greener on the otherside.... be that DP, Cubase, Logic. And just because someone has made it work doesn't mean it made their lives easy, just that they worked around its shortcomings and no doubt wasted a lot of time doing so. At least in my experience.

-DJ


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## pottering (Apr 7, 2019)

kitekrazy said:


> This has been discussed on Live's forum. You can access your Live 9 Suite in Live 10.



No offense but you better provide some proof of this statement (I'm considering "Live 10" in that quote as "Live 10 Standard"), at least the link to said discussion.

Somebody downgrading to Live 10 Standard from Live 9 Suite, having all their Live 9 Suite projects opening in "demo mode" (no saving or export), then having to upgrade to Live 10 Suite, will spend $69 extra or more that they didn't need to spend, plus unnecessary annoyances.



I did write myself in the first comment "*Maybe Live is not "ideal" for movie scoring*, but it sure won't stop you from being a successful composer."

Seems people are thinking I made claims of "superiority" or "use Live and you will be successful" by listing "famous" composers that use Live?

I thought the context was clear, mentioned by OP ("Live... ...an outlier in the orchestral world").

I just provided some evidence, with sources, that Live is not such an outlier anymore.


Also, DP is shown in the Göransson vid I posted myself, PT in the Reznor vid, not like I was trying to hide they use those other DAWs and portray them as "loyal Live fanbois" or whatever ("brenneisen" seems to imply I was trying to mischaracterize those composers).


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## ism (Apr 7, 2019)

Daniel James said:


> Hey,
> 
> I was a HUGE Ableton user (I worked on Metal Gear Solid V in Live) so its definitely possible.....it just doesn't make your life easy.
> 
> ...




Yes, and I’d add that it’s not just the work involved and the time saved, but functionality like ability to select and navigate multiple clips in Logic (for instance) let’s you visualize and think about what your composing in ways that I found very hard to get my head around in Live, much as I love it, and as much as I’d love Logic to have something comparable to the clip view.

live 10 offers improvements in midi workflow to be sure, which I hope will continue, but not nearly enough to go back yet.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 7, 2019)

pottering said:


> *No offense but you better provide some proof of this statement (I'm considering "Live 10" in that quote as "Live 10 Standard"), at least the link to said discussion.*
> 
> Somebody downgrading to Live 10 Standard from Live 9 Suite, having all their Live 9 Suite projects opening in "demo mode" (no saving or export), then having to upgrade to Live 10 Suite, will spend $69 extra or more that they didn't need to spend, plus unnecessary annoyances.
> 
> ...



You do come across as a fanboy. I'm not going to waste time providing any proof yada yada as I visit Live's forum everyday. If you had any previous version of Live Suite, there isn't really much added to justify $250 upgrade price. That goes back to when it was released. I'm not going to upgrade to Live 11 Suite. 
I do believe the orchestra sounds are from Sonivox which can be had for cheap. Kontakt>>>>Sampler. Don't need another wave table synth. Max4Live takes time to learn it. 
So if you wanna debate Live's Suite value or whatever this dog no longer hunts.


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## pottering (Apr 7, 2019)

I AM a Live fanboi, LOL


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## pottering (Apr 7, 2019)

I'm not trying to convince you to do anything, I want to know if it is really true if a user that has Live 9 Suite and Live 10 Standard can load Live 9 Suite projects into Live 10 Standard, without Live 10 Standard getting into demo mode.

I thought that was not possible.


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## Daniel James (Apr 7, 2019)

pottering said:


> I AM a Live fanboi, LOL



I used to be. Until I tried Cubase.

-DJ


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## krops (Apr 7, 2019)

I can't verify whether or not you can still access Suite 9 content in Standard 10, but I don't find the upgrade price deterring. I like the software, I don't mind supporting the developers, and I use Suite content all the time. What's the upgrade price for you from 9 Suite to 10 Standard, then, @pottering ? (I can't see any upgrade prices until Live 11, I guess  A currency conversion shows me I paid about $220 (however that's based on today's currency) for the Suite 9 to Suite 10 upgrade.

For the record: here's a version comparison:

https://www.ableton.com/en/live/compare-editions/

Isotonik have a Max for Live pack that expands Live's MIDI editing capabilities greatly, but personally, I find it a little cumbersome to use, and I'd much rather see a natively beefed-up improvement.


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## DerGeist (Apr 7, 2019)

paulmatthew said:


> The biggest problem for me with Ableton it that the track headers cannot be on the left side of the screen and makes it clunky . They really need to add customizable options to the daw .



Since I started on Ableton I'm so used to them being on the right I cant imagine them being anywhere else


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## DerGeist (Apr 7, 2019)

pottering said:


> Nicholas Britell got indicated for the Oscar 2 times and is a Live user.
> 
> https://www.fastcompany.com/9029656...cholas-britells-experimental-creative-process
> 
> ...




Great points. I think part of the "what ableton is good for" issue is related to how they market the product. When you watch their videos and read their press it is all focused on the clip view, loops, etc. This may be the source of the misconception that Live is not ideally suited for more traditional composition and tracking. I find Live is pretty good at through composed, non loop based, work. You would just never know it from the way they choose to present Live.

Off topic FWIW, I find it bizarre (and a bit annoying) that loop based clip work is somehow seen as modern and contemporary and through composed time based composition is somehow stogy and old fashioned. This isn't a judgment of the quality that comes out of either method but there is certainly value in both.


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## pottering (Apr 7, 2019)

Daniel James said:


> I used to be. Until I tried Cubase.
> 
> -DJ



I actually never saw you state that so directly, you always make such a big deal of being a "Live user" before starting praising Cubase.

In retrospect, I see you were careful to say you were "HUGE Ableton user", "user" not "fan".


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## ism (Apr 7, 2019)

I think it’s that with it excellent suport for clips, loops etc Live is great for the mental models at play when composing at this particular level of structure.

When composing orchestral music, I generally fine that I need build my mental models of what’s going on at slightly different levels of granularity. This is most obvious in selecting multiple track at the same time, so you can really see the vertical interaction of the harmonies, or how the melody wanders from the oboe to the clarinet to the cello.

Here I rely heavily on Logic’s midi functionality.

Then when moving up a level of granularity - at slightly larger levels granularity -repeating motifs, and working out the development of A - B - A structure, etc - here’s where I really miss Live.


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## paulmatthew (Apr 7, 2019)

DerGeist said:


> Since I started on Ableton I'm so used to them being on the right I cant imagine them being anywhere else


I know the feeling but when trying other DAWs it seems more natural and better laid out when it's on the left. There are a lot of things Ableton could change to improve the DAW . When the next update is released it will be better. There's some cool stuff added to the beta if you haven't tried it yet.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 7, 2019)

ism said:


> I think it’s that with it excellent suport for clips, loops etc Live is great for the mental models at play when composing at this particular level of structure.
> 
> *When composing orchestral music,* I generally fine that I need build my mental models of what’s going on at slightly different levels of granularity. This is most obvious in selecting multiple track at the same time, so you can really see the vertical interaction of the harmonies, or how the melody wanders from the oboe to the clarinet to the cello.
> 
> ...



It's hard for me to use a DAW known for pattern based music. Plus I need a staff view and a piano roll window .


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## JonSolo (Apr 7, 2019)

For the most part I cut my teeth in Cubase VST 32. When Reason came out I loved some of that style of workflow for certain things, and the fact that I could use ReWire was awesome. I have stayed with Cubase through the years, and have now moved to Nuendo.

When Ableton Live first hit, it was confusing to me. With later versions (after V7 specifically) I got into it a bit more. I ended up getting Push 2 eventually and recording an entire album with Live 9.5. As many have said, it does a lot of things really well. 

I still do a variety of music and styles and projects that call for all sorts of things. While I have other DAWs such as FL Studio, and, arguably, Maschine, I gravitate toward Cubase/Nuendo.

Ableton and Reason have fantastic elements and workflow aspects that Cubase would benefit from. But in the end they feel clunky as a whole and what started out as inspiration can quickly become a dumbed-down mess.


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## Daniel James (Apr 7, 2019)

pottering said:


> I actually never saw you state that so directly, you always make such a big deal of being a "Live user" before starting praising Cubase.
> 
> In retrospect, I see you were careful to say you were "HUGE Ableton user", "user" not "fan".



I think you are overthinking things mate. I was a total Live fanboy for the longest time. I knew it inside and out so it was always faster for me to write in live than to swap over. But I hit a 'speed ceiling' with it, and once I got the chance to learn Cubase, I did. And I am now just as fast, if not faster, than I was with Live but with the added bonus of more features I can take advantage of as a composer for films and games.

Its all a subjective thing in the end anyways, so don't take every negative stance about Live as an attack on you. I have been there before and trust me its a waste of time and effort. You can do great things with any DAW, but some are better at some things than others. That doesn't mean you are dumb or anything like that for sticking with it, just you have a different focus for your music. So don't let any of this get to you, everythings good.... we are writing music at the end of the day which has the sole purpose of bringing joy to peoples lives. Don't do what I did and start drawing battle lines and digging trenches. Its just not worth it.

Have fun man 

-DJ


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## ProfoundSilence (Apr 7, 2019)

I wish I could heart your post Daniel. 

Personally, I'm a Cubase user - but from time to time I like the look of logic(but hate macOS). Reaper is looking better and better to me, but it's intimidating. One day I'll try to learn reaper(maybe on a mobile rig?) because it's simply fascinating to me, but the moral of the story is to use the tool that gets the job done. 

It's not a "fan" thing - it's a user thing. The second Cubase doesn't do what I need it to do, I'll be moving onto the next one, which is *exactly* why I switched to Cubase in the first place. Daniel is simply stating he was a huge live user because it's an easy way of letting you know before hand - that the reason he doesn't use it is not a lack of skill or knowledge on how to use it.


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## Solarsentinel (Apr 8, 2019)

Daniel James said:


> I think you are overthinking things mate. I was a total Live fanboy for the longest time. I knew it inside and out so it was always faster for me to write in live than to swap over. But I hit a 'speed ceiling' with it, and once I got the chance to learn Cubase, I did. And I am now just as fast, if not faster, than I was with Live but with the added bonus of more features I can take advantage of as a composer for films and games.
> 
> Its all a subjective thing in the end anyways, so don't take every negative stance about Live as an attack on you. I have been there before and trust me its a waste of time and effort. You can do great things with any DAW, but some are better at some things than others. That doesn't mean you are dumb or anything like that for sticking with it, just you have a different focus for your music. So don't let any of this get to you, everythings good.... we are writing music at the end of the day which has the sole purpose of bringing joy to peoples lives. Don't do what I did and start drawing battle lines and digging trenches. Its just not worth it.
> 
> ...



Hi all!
I think DJ has right in a number of points but i 'll do some explanations. Yes ableton is not aimed at composers but more for electronic users. But you can do all the things you want with it like any other DAW. The fact is that any DAW have particulars features. And it feats or not with your needs. The all things is to know is where you have to make compromise.
For my case, i'm an Ableton user and i do film music and trailer music. but i'm not a professionnal. I'm hobbyist. I tried many time to use Cubase for example, because i saw professionnals like DJ, Jason Graves, Junkie XL, etc... use it, but i can't understand this software! For me Ableton is much more faster, i can materialize my ideas quickly and i can do what i want. And i understand this software, for me it is clear like water. I love also the simplicity of in board devices and the possibility of max for live. I love also the simplicity to connect hardware stuff and synchronize them with Live.
Then what? Yes it lacks midi feature, and some editing is very boring when you compare it to cubase or Logic. But for me who's not a professionnal, i have time for that! So i prefer loosing some time for editing, but i refuse to be "frustated" in loosing time for materialize ideas. This is my decision, and i like it lol!
That's why i understand totally DJ when he said "Cubase make my life easier". It suits him well for his professionnal purpose, that all, no need more argue.

[QUOTE="
Have fun man 

-DJ[/QUOTE]

Yes DJ you're right! Fun is to make music, not to fight each other on what DAW to use!
You're Great Man


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## Solarsentinel (Apr 8, 2019)

kitekrazy said:


> You do come across as a fanboy. I'm not going to waste time providing any proof yada yada as I visit Live's forum everyday. If you had any previous version of Live Suite, there isn't really much added to justify $250 upgrade price. That goes back to when it was released. I'm not going to upgrade to Live 11 Suite.
> I do believe the orchestra sounds are from Sonivox which can be had for cheap. Kontakt>>>>Sampler. Don't need another wave table synth. Max4Live takes time to learn it.
> So if you wanna debate Live's Suite value or whatever this dog no longer hunts.



Hi,
i don't want to angry the debate here, but i'm not agree with you.
I think the price of the upgrade is pretty fair when you saw the content. I will not enumerate all the things you ve got with Live 10, but just the Ableton wavetable synth justify the price in my opinion. Any other wavetable vst synth is sold between 100 - 200 $. Ok you probably already have Serum or other stuff and wavetable comes in little late, but here it is, and it do the job. 
Futhermore there are plently of new devices in this upgrade, and when i saw that an upgrade from cubase cost 100$ every year, and an upgrade of Ableton cost 250$ per 5 years, i don't think the price is overpricy.
It is not the top price policy, FL studio and Reaper are the best (lifetime free updates), but it's fair.
I'm not a fanboy, just my economical thoughts! 

Perhaps this is not the content that all Live users want to be, but it's another debate.
Cheers


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## Geoff Grace (Apr 8, 2019)

As MOTU has added a Clips feature in DP10, it might be a good option to look at for Live users who are considering changing DAWs:



Best,

Geoff


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## kitekrazy (Apr 8, 2019)

Solarsentinel said:


> Hi,
> i don't want to angry the debate here, but i'm not agree with you.
> I think the price of the upgrade is pretty fair when you saw the content. I will not enumerate all the things you ve got with Live 10, *but just the Ableton wavetable synth justify the price in my opinion*. Any other wavetable vst synth is sold between 100 - 200 $. Ok you probably already have Serum or other stuff and wavetable comes in little late, but here it is, and it do the job.
> Futhermore there are plently of new devices in this upgrade, and when i saw that an upgrade from cubase cost 100$ every year, *and an upgrade of Ableton cost 250$ per 5 years*, i don't think the price is overpricy.
> ...



LOL. I have 2 license of 8 Suite, 2 licenses of 9 Suite, 1 license of 10 Suite. I've already stated my decision. I pretty much have anything that is better than what is in the Suite. The length of time between versions is a lame argument because developers are not consistent i release dates. So let's say my Reason upgrade was $80 over 3 years. I even got Europa VST for free. I read that yada yada on Lives forum by using a timeline to justify the original $299 upgrade price for Suite. I got my upgrade via Sweetwater paying 2-3 years with no interest. 


There is a long thread in The Lounge about the Suite upgrade price. Most don't like it. One member stated no need for most of the stuff since it's covered by 3rd party. That's why I wont do the Suite anymore. It's also proprietary stuff. 

Live Suite for the 1st time user is $750. Maybe a Guitar Center employee could convince one to spend that kind of change on a DAW. Using your developer timeline if Live 11 is released in 2 years and an upgrade sale is $250 = $125 a year. So that person will fork out $1000. Almost smell likes Bitwig.

Fanboys and economic thoughts are not always logical. I don't need the Suite anymore unless the price is tempting. In my perfect world there would never be a Live Suite and you can buy those proprietary add ons.

BTW see DJ's post. Stop digging trenches.


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## DerGeist (Apr 8, 2019)

Solarsentinel said:


> Hi,
> i don't want to angry the debate here, but i'm not agree with you.
> I think the price of the upgrade is pretty fair when you saw the content. I will not enumerate all the things you ve got with Live 10, but just the Ableton wavetable synth justify the price in my opinion. Any other wavetable vst synth is sold between 100 - 200 $. Ok you probably already have Serum or other stuff and wavetable comes in little late, but here it is, and it do the job.
> Futhermore there are plently of new devices in this upgrade, and when i saw that an upgrade from cubase cost 100$ every year, and an upgrade of Ableton cost 250$ per 5 years, i don't think the price is overpricy.
> ...


I thought being able to rename inputs was worth the price of the upgrade, not to mention midi multi-edit.


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## Matt Riley (Apr 9, 2019)

Ableton was all used for orchestral stuff until a couple of years ago. I just became unwieldy with larges projects. Their development team is also incredibly slow to bring new features. I made the switch to Logic X and have never looked back. Logic is so much more flexible and fully featured. I still use Ableton for live performances though. Also sound design.


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## dgburns (Apr 9, 2019)

I kinda see Live as a good place to throw down some loops and ideas, maybe try a few rows of sounds and see if an idea comes from that.

Gone are the days of needing it to smooth out timing from recorded material when the others (LPX, Cubase, DP) didn't have flex timing tools.

Never could get used to the tracks list on the right hand side, lol

imho


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## cmillar (Apr 9, 2019)

I love Live for playing back audio files 'live' that I've composed/produced in another DAW (Motu DP).

Live is so rock solid when used live. 

For example: We had the computer and video power plug get pulled two minutes before a live 'on air' show by a bumbling technician under a table. We freaked....but rebooted the computer, and it came back in time for showtime...and all the files were still in place and ready to go!!....didn't have to re-load any files!

I haven't done much more in Ableton Live other than play back files using a Launchpad. 

I probably should look at it some more. I love the fact that newer versions don't require having to buy the latest/greatest computer and most recent Mac OSX....that alone make me want to really look at using Live some more for my work. 

I'm not a big-time or wanna-be Hollywood film type, and am gravitating to more and more live gig playing and gig creating these days, so Live would be great.


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## cmillar (Apr 9, 2019)

Questions for Live users:

- really...is there much difference in performance or anything between a Live PC/Windows system vs. a Live Mac system?
- I'm not talking about crazy hyper computers...just simple needs like for using a couple of software synths (ie: Kontakt, maybe a Play instance), a few audio files, and using an instance or two of Omnisphere. (I have no need for massive 'orchestral-ready' templates these days)
- what kind of I7's or I5's do you use for laptop use?

Thanks for any ideas!


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## pottering (Apr 9, 2019)

I only use PCs, but theoretically there isn't much difference if the CPU/RAM/etc. are equivalent.

For PC laptops there are "i7" that are "Ultrabook", they use less energy (battery) but are also slower. 

They are marked with a "U" after the number so a "i7-8550U" is less powerful than a "i5-8300H".

I think many complaints about a new PC "under-performing" are due to this.

So better get a laptop that is not "ultrabook" (or adjust your expectations when buying one).


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## Fredeke (Apr 9, 2019)

I make EDM, and this thread actually makes me want to try out Ableton.


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