# Windows 11...no thanks



## bill5 (Aug 18, 2021)

Like Windows 10 before it, I have no interest or intention of "upgrading" to this. I've read about it and it sounds more like Windows 10.1. A few UI changes, all of which don't appeal, and really just buys me nothing. Another bang-up marketing tool by MS for the "we gotta get it cuz it's newer" folks.

And it goes to 11! Spinal Tap would be so proud.


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## Rudianos (Aug 18, 2021)

I'm sure they have found new ways of violating users privacy for marketing and government eves. Windows for me is completely functional as is. Why change.


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## sostenuto (Aug 18, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Like Windows 10 before it, I have no interest or intention of "upgrading" to this. I've read about it and it sounds more like Windows 10.1. A few UI changes, all of which don't appeal, and really just buys me nothing. Another bang-up marketing tool by MS for the "we gotta get it cuz it's newer" folks.
> 
> And it goes to 11! Spinal Tap would be so proud.


Another brilliant, positive post ! WTF ?? Get a freaking Mac and try to get positive !


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## mscp (Aug 18, 2021)

Rudianos said:


> I'm sure they have found new ways of violating users privacy for marketing and government eves. Windows for me is completely functional as is. Why change.


Whoever thinks that he/she has privacy these days is just silly. The moment you turn your wi-fi on - it is over...I bet most people who are privacy advocates have an account on youtube, watch videos on Netflix, pay their movie tickets with a credit card, order food online, and use GPS navigation to get from A to B. If you've nothing to hide...why bother? 

Anyway,

I'll upgrade to W11 when the benefits to do so arise (security updates, speed/functionality...). Not interested in bells and whistles.


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## sostenuto (Aug 18, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> Whoever thinks that he/she has privacy these days is just silly. The moment you turn your wi-fi on - it is over...I bet most people who are privacy advocates have an account on youtube, watch videos on Netflix, pay their movie tickets with a credit card, order food online, and use GPS navigation to get from A to B. Ironic? Yes. Point is: if you've nothing to hide...why bother? If you do have something to hide, seek life as a hermit in some "Wayward Pines" -esque town. But then again...lol. #paranoia.
> 
> Anyway,
> 
> I'll upgrade to W11 when the benefits to do so arise (security updates, speed/functionality...). Not interested in bells and whistles.


Absolutely individual choice ! Personal choice is not fall so far behind that eventual Upgrade is truly painful. Perhaps have not missed single Upgrade since well before Win8. No notable issues, but also not commercial /professional user dealing with very different needs. 
Kudos to many Insider Preview talented users who have contributed immensely to decades of growth and improvement. 
Several fav iOS creators responsible for similar advancement.  Pluginguru come to mind. 
Always happy to take time to sort Win / iOS variants _ to enjoy steady progress.


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## mscp (Aug 18, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> Absolutely individual choice ! Personal choice is not fall so far behind that eventual Upgrade is truly painful. Perhaps have not missed single Upgrade since well before Win8. No notable issues, but also not commercial /professional user dealing with very different needs.
> Kudos to many Insider Preview talented users who have contributed immensely to decades of growth and improvement.
> Several fav iOS creators responsible for similar advancement. Pluginguru come to mind.
> Always happy to take time to sort Win / iOS variants _ to enjoy steady progress.


I know. The latter was just my personal opinion. I just don't like to upgrade to the latest version just so I can have the newest stuff around. But if it's really better, I'll be hoping in sooner than I think.

About the privacy though, factual.


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## sostenuto (Aug 18, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> I know. The latter was just my personal opinion. I just don't like to upgrade to the latest version just so I can have the newest stuff around. But if it's really better, I'll be hoping in sooner than I think.
> 
> About the privacy though, factual.


Actually ..... given weak OS chops, to sort key changes .... have had no issues, but very limited awareness of Win11 Pro benefits _ _for personal daily needs_. No real clue why MS proceeded down this path. Trying to trust underlying changes having benefits in future. 🤷🏻


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## mscp (Aug 18, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> Actually ..... given weak OS chops, to sort key changes .... have had no issues, but very limited awareness of Win11 Pro benefits _ _for personal daily needs_. No real clue why MS proceeded down this path. Trying to trust underlying changes having benefits in future. 🤷🏻


Yea. I do expect at least some tasty GUI refresh. If there's one thing I love about Macs is the GUI. Other than that, Windows is "perfect" (emphasis on quotation marks) in every sense.


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## wcreed51 (Aug 18, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> About the privacy though, factual.


And you think that's not true with Apple?


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## dylanmixer (Aug 18, 2021)

Ok.


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## mscp (Aug 18, 2021)

wcreed51 said:


> And you think that's not true with Apple?


In order for you to largely use the internet, you MUST compromise no matter what device you're using.


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## gsilbers (Aug 18, 2021)

I think it’s very cool. Obviously they copied a lot of the mac sort of user experience and making a lot more user friendly.
windows 10 has that issue that it has tons of different ways to do many different options of maybe doing the way you might find a little different than the hundred other ways another might maybe want to someday do with some type of endless options to do all the amazing things possible.
Yet, a simple class complaint audio driver that just works. Nope. Or maybe. Depends. Who knows but it’s most likely your fault for not getting the proper driver from some obscure site that’s clearly mention in page 345 of a 1200 page thread of a forums about programmers.

So with w11 I see a more streamline approach to being useful for the masses. Their main clients has always been the big corporation and office jobs. So this will be a big hit for them.

The one thing that seems the most obvious and doesn’t seem to be mentioned a lot is that it’s clearly that Microsoft wants to go back to smartphones and devices.

If they work it out with the small tablets and duo tablet thingy they have and you can get windows11 then with teams it’s basically an iPhone on steroids.

you just go to work or any desk, connect a keyboard and display and you have a pc. Take it around and it’s
A smarphone you can call and text and play games. 
most users will only get to a level of basic video editing for their podcast and photoshop. 

Plus windows 11 can also be a web based. Which is great to farm out small gigs.

anyways. I do see this going places. They’ve open to all types of apps and stores from many companies.

not sure exactly how they’ll make money but privacy seems to be the main one so far.


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## sostenuto (Aug 18, 2021)

Hmmm ..... Skimmed 'Teams' too lightly and will revisit. Never been much of a social media guy, and not likely to change. Texting was emotional move ? forward ?. 🤦🏻‍♂️


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## gsilbers (Aug 19, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> Hmmm ..... Skimmed 'Teams' too lightly and will revisit. Never been much of a social media guy, and not likely to change. Texting was emotional move ? forward ?. 🤦🏻‍♂️


I don't think Microsoft had a well rounded messaging or calling system previously that was cross platform and even work over cellular. I tried going into android phone but I found the lack of cross platform, free and simple texting and video chat, and calling to be off putting. At least in the US. With the iPhone was all in one solution. With android seems you need WhatsApp, plus a separate calling number, etc etc. 

Teams was regarded as a Slack and Zoom alternative but MS seems to have high hopes to be a the central device communication for work and social.


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## d.healey (Aug 19, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> I don't think Microsoft had a well rounded messaging or calling system previously that was cross platform and even work over cellular


Skype?


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## creativeforge (Aug 19, 2021)

Will that update be "forced" on Win10 users? Will there be a point where you won't have a choice but to update even if yo're not ready? I rather wait 6 months to a year before updating, so the kinks are ironed out. 

I'm still using Win7 on one of my computers and Win10 on the other. Usually bugs take time to be found and fixed.


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## mscp (Aug 19, 2021)

creativeforge said:


> Will that update be "forced" on Win10 users? Will there be a point where you won't have a choice but to update even if yo're not ready? I rather wait 6 months to a year before updating, so the kinks are ironed out.
> 
> I'm still using Win7 on one of my computers and Win10 on the other. Usually bugs take time to be found and fixed.



Customers are not really forced to update. I've seen people still using Win7 to this day. It really depends on your personal choice.

But if you're referring to security updates, etc...I think there's a 5 years window (no pun intended) -- I may be slightly wrong though.


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## KarlHeinz (Aug 19, 2021)

Glad none of my PC/Notebook even come near to the basic system requirements for win 11 to even work so nothing to worry about.......


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## easyrider (Aug 19, 2021)

creativeforge said:


> Will that update be "forced" on Win10 users? Will there be a point where you won't have a choice but to update even if yo're not ready? I rather wait 6 months to a year before updating, so the kinks are ironed out.
> 
> I'm still using Win7 on one of my computers and Win10 on the other. Usually bugs take time to be found and fixed.


Depending on your hardware…..you PC might not meet windows 11 specs.


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## easyrider (Aug 19, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Like Windows 10 before it, I have no interest or intention of "upgrading" to this. I've read about it and it sounds more like Windows 10.1. A few UI changes, all of which don't appeal, and really just buys me nothing. Another bang-up marketing tool by MS for the "we gotta get it cuz it's newer" folks.
> 
> And it goes to 11! Spinal Tap would be so proud.


You really have no idea what you are talking about lol….


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## creativeforge (Aug 19, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Depending on your hardware…..you PC might not meet windows 11 specs.


That is a new bit of information for me, thanks. I'll check it out or heck it out.


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## RSK (Aug 19, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Like Windows 10 before it, I have no interest or intention of "upgrading" to this. I've read about it and it sounds more like Windows 10.1. A few UI changes, all of which don't appeal, and really just buys me nothing. Another bang-up marketing tool by MS for the "we gotta get it cuz it's newer" folks.
> 
> And it goes to 11! Spinal Tap would be so proud.


Fusistance is retail. Your ass will be laminated.


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## easyrider (Aug 19, 2021)

creativeforge said:


> That is a new bit of information for me, thanks. I'll check it out or heck it out.


6th and 7th Gen Intel….not supported.


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## sostenuto (Aug 19, 2021)

easyrider said:


> 6th and 7th Gen Intel….not supported.


Yet ? Gonna be staggering number of WW users outa luck come Oct. Not surprised if this MS posture evolves /changes.


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## easyrider (Aug 19, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> Yet ? Gonna be staggering number of WW users outa luck come Oct. Not surprised if this MS posture evolves /changes.


Will wait and see….


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## mscp (Aug 19, 2021)

easyrider said:


> 6th and 7th Gen Intel….not supported.


Planned obsolesce. Happens in everything that is run by software...Apple loves to do that every 5 years or so. Microsoft finally caught up to it. 

I still use my VHS recorder to watch my Back To The Future tape. lol.


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## creativeforge (Aug 19, 2021)

easyrider said:


> 6th and 7th Gen Intel….not supported.


*Operating System*
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
*CPU*
Intel Core i7 @ 3.70GHz
Coffee Lake 14nm Technology
*RAM*
32.0GB Dual-Channel Unknown @ 1199MHz (15-15-15-35)
*Motherboard*
ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. PRIME Z370-A (LGA1151)
*Graphics*
HP 25xi ([email protected])
2047MB NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 (Gigabyte)
*Storage*
931GB TOSHIBA HDWD110 (SATA )
931GB SAMSUNG HD103SJ (SATA )
931GB SAMSUNG HD103SJ (SATA )
465GB Samsung SSD 850 EVO 500GB (SATA (SSD))
*Optical Drives*
HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GH24NSC0
*Audio*
Saffire Audio Pro24 DSP


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## AceAudioHQ (Aug 19, 2021)

creativeforge said:


> Will that update be "forced" on Win10 users?


Probably not, lots of Windows 10 users can’t even update to it since it has higher hardware requirements, like TPM 2.0


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## easyrider (Aug 19, 2021)

creativeforge said:


> *Operating System*
> Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
> *CPU*
> Intel Core i7 @ 3.70GHz
> ...


Coffee Lake 8th Gen supported.


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## bill5 (Aug 19, 2021)

AceAudioHQ said:


> Probably not, lots of Windows 10 users can’t even update to it since it has higher hardware requirements, like TPM 2.0


Absolutely not. Boy I bet that was hard for them to decide lol


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## bill5 (Aug 19, 2021)

easyrider said:


> You really have no idea what you are talking about lol….


Said the pot to the kettle.

What is it about Windows that prompts these pompous ass posts from you; does your mother work there or something?


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## d.healey (Aug 20, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> Apple loves to do that every 5 years or so. Microsoft finally caught up to it.


But in Apple's case they also make the hardware


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## TomislavEP (Aug 20, 2021)

Despite all its shortcomings, I mainly have positive experiences with W10. I'm using it on my studio rig and few other systems practically since inception and never had any deal-breaking issues, even though I'm a very demanding user. Of course, your own experiences may be significantly different. It all depends on a series of factors.

To be honest, I never saw W11 coming. I was hoping for a facelift and further improvements in the usability and privacy departments. The imposed system requirements for W11 are ridiculous and will (justifiably) drove users away from updating right from the start.

I was an early adopter of W10, but I probably won't rush with W11 although my DAW system should be qualified for an update.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 20, 2021)

Computer operating systems are one of the most boring topics ever. I don't care at all if it's Windows 1 or 5 or 11 or whatever. I don't know why people get so passionate about this stuff. A bunch of folders and files and stuff you click on. So yeah ... so they're updating Windows soon. That's fine I guess.


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## GtrString (Aug 20, 2021)

We have units of both Mac and Windows, all function well enough. Not too much reliable information on Win 11 yet, I think. You can speculate forever, but the proof is in the beans..


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## Ivan M. (Aug 20, 2021)

creativeforge said:


>


This, in general, is exactly how software is made: how requirements are communicated, UX defined and code written. Sad truth. I don't trust any software at all.


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## KarlHeinz (Aug 20, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Computer operating systems are one of the most boring topics ever. I don't care at all if it's Windows 1 or 5 or 11 or whatever. I don't know why people get so passionate about this stuff. A bunch of folders and files and stuff you click on. So yeah ... so they're updating Windows soon. That's fine I guess.


If you can afford to buy your hardware new every year, and take the actual "standard" of that year, no problem.

If you cant, as far as the infos are available now win 11 will exclude most of the PC and Notebooks running now (which includes stuff 2-3 years old and up to date at that time).

Then the following question: when wil the gap between "win 11 only" applications and hardware using win 10 simply cause win 11 wont work on it will keep you from using applications you want to use.

I already got an announcement for a software I use which is very "big player" orientated (simply cause it uses the big shops only for sale) that tells me that the new win 11 version will have lots of new stuff I had requested for years.....

So, very simple said, thats why it bothers me. And thats just the start I am afraid....I have no interest in the system itself but as all depends on it....


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## easyrider (Aug 20, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Said the pot to the kettle.
> 
> What is it about Windows that prompts these pompous ass posts from you; does your mother work there or something?


Let’s dissect your post…



> Like Windows 10 before it, I have no interest or intention of "upgrading" to this. I've read about it and it sounds more like Windows 10.1. A few UI changes, all of which don't appeal, and really just buys me nothing.


W11 requires TPM v 2.0….and W11 is a free upgrade for W10 users….W7 is no longer supported by microsoft and is using it leaves you open to malware and security problems…

If you think windows version are just UI changes then you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.



> Another bang-up marketing tool by MS for the "we gotta get it cuz it's newer" folks.And it goes to 11! Spinal Tap would be so proud.


All users running windows 10 get a free upgrade to windows 11 and people who are running older systems without TMP 2.0 support won’t be able to upgrade anyway….

So again your post is nonsense….

People spouting misinformation when running windows 7 or windows 8 systems grinds my gears….running a legacy OS is not big or clever….it’s what noobs do…..


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## kb123 (Aug 20, 2021)

i have the latest w11 beta running on a pc and i like it. There are still some bugs/annoyances in it but from a ui perspective, i think its an improvement.

The TPM 2 requirement is there so that windows becomes a more secure environment. Hackers have progressed a long way since the days of W7 and W10 and most security specialist recommend hardware security rather than relying on software. TPM 2 is the component that provides this. At some point vulnerable systems have to be left in the past


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## nspaas (Aug 20, 2021)

Loved W7, grudgingly moved to W10 when necessary. Smooth sailing ever since. 

I don't foresee moving to W11 until support is dropped (2025?), but I think by that time, judging by the outcry so far, the requirements for W11 will be loosened somewhat.


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## GNP (Aug 20, 2021)

I no longer bother about the UI of things anymore. As long as they work.


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## dylanmixer (Aug 20, 2021)

Just installed the Windows 11 beta on my main machine. I'll let y'all know how it goes.


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## mscp (Aug 20, 2021)

dylanmixer said:


> Just installed the Windows 11 beta on my main machine. I'll let y'all know how it goes.


beta? you're brave.


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## dylanmixer (Aug 20, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> beta? you're brave.


I've been running it on my laptop for the past month or so. Cubase and all. Haven't run in to any issues yet. If anything, some of the new stuff is incredibly useful like the snap functions. So it wasn't without a little experimentation first.

At the first sign of trouble I have a backup of Win 10 ready to go.


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## mscp (Aug 20, 2021)

dylanmixer said:


> I've been running it on my laptop for the past month or so. Cubase and all. Haven't run in to any issues yet. If anything, some of the new stuff is incredibly useful like the snap functions. So it wasn't without a little experimentation first.
> 
> At the first sign of trouble I have a backup of Win 10 ready to go.


I'd love to upgrade, but I'm the "I'll do it a year after it's been released" type of guy...both on Macs and PCs.


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## Trash Panda (Aug 20, 2021)

Seems throughout Microsoft’s history, it’s always best to upgrade every other OS life cycle. Can’t imagine that’s changed.


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## JohnG (Aug 20, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> I bet most people who are privacy advocates have an account on youtube, watch videos on Netflix, pay their movie tickets with a credit card, order food online, and use GPS navigation to get from A to B.


No way! I watch all my shows for free.

Of course, it can surprise the neighbours if they happen to turn around while watching the movie...


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## dylanmixer (Aug 20, 2021)

So far the only thing that is not functioning is my Sonarworks Reference software (the systemwide standalone app). The plugin still functions within Cubase so it is not a huge bother to me at the moment. 

Otherwise, system and Cubase feels snappy.


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## mscp (Aug 20, 2021)

dylanmixer said:


> So far the only thing that is not functioning is my Sonarworks Reference software (the systemwide standalone app). The plugin still functions within Cubase so it is not a huge bother to me at the moment.
> 
> Otherwise, system and Cubase feels snappy.


More than W10 was/is?


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## Pier (Aug 20, 2021)

Personally I'm happy to see Microsoft finally taking UI/UX more seriously.

Apple still has a huge advantage though with E2E control of software and hardware. I'm curious to know how will Microsoft, Nvidia, AMD, and Intel react to what Apple is doing.


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## thevisi0nary (Aug 20, 2021)

Just taking the piss here so don't take me too serious, but if you're gonna complain about something at least have it not be vague or something every OS is guilty of. Like someone else pointed out once you are connected to the internet, there is no privacy.

Whats definitely disappointing is seemingly no improvement on unification of the settings, there's multiple levels of settings in different places from everything ranging to display settings, audio settings, color calibration settings. It's all over the place and I don't see how that's been improved. 

What is supposedly improved is the core scheduler, which will benefit intel's hybrid architecture (and maybe more).


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## dylanmixer (Aug 23, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> More than W10 was/is?


So far about the same, if not better. I know that one of the things was that Win 11 will be a little more optimized, since they're removing a lot of ancient legacy code from the OS. 

For a beta, I'm actually pretty happy with it so far.


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## mscp (Aug 23, 2021)

dylanmixer said:


> So far about the same, if not better. I know that one of the things was that Win 11 will be a little more optimized, since they're removing a lot of ancient legacy code from the OS.
> 
> For a beta, I'm actually pretty happy with it so far.


Glad to know.


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## GeoMax (Jan 2, 2022)

I clean installed windows 11 on both my studio computers. Then, I decided to move some nvme drives around. Went to reinstall Windows 11 by booting from USB media and I got BOD. When I put the OS drive back in, all was fine. Turns out you have to "reset" TPM before you can reinstall. I was doing a reinstall to a larger boot drive, so I still had the original build.

My question, or fear, is what if my actual harddrive was corrupt and I couldnt "reset" TPM in Windows 11 OS? My CPU would be locked? I guess I didnt try resetting the system BIOS or pulling off the BIOS battery to clear it. Anyone know if that would solve it?

It was good to face some struggles earlier on, but it was a bit like having a locked iPad, iPhone, and Apple watch a deceased family member. Seems to me that wiping the device should be enough secure data and let me use the hardware. Whatever. I decided to roll my older machine back to Windows 10.

I really have not found anything I like better about Windows 11. It seems MS just messed around with GUI stuff and made things like networking and computer management tasks even more buried than before. As far as performance, I cant really tell all that much. However, I can run my DAW at 32 samples now, if I wanted too, without it popping like jiffy pop. So, maybe there are some performance benefits for real-time audio tasks.

As far as stability and things working, I have had no other issues. Only plugins that wont work yet are all my guitar amp/fx stuff from PositiveGrid. Everything else i own is up and running without issue.


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## sostenuto (Jan 2, 2022)

As though there are any substantive choices.


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## AlbertSmithers (Jan 2, 2022)

Rudianos said:


> Windows for me is completely functional as is. Why change.


Felt like this ever since they started deviating from Windows 7 tbh. Felt like Windows 7 was the pinnacle - all they had to do was work on optimizing processes and I would have been over the moon. That said, it sure is frustrating when you have to search deeply to find some of the control panel menus that were originally able to be found via the start menu.

To stay in business, they probably have to market to others who prefer a simplified UI, and who knows, maybe power users aren't the main target demographic.


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## PaulieDC (Jan 2, 2022)

Installed Win 11 in July on my laptop, first Beta, and eventually the real thing. Actually did the upgrade to test that, normally I do clean installs. Anyway, it took a few months for drivers and other stuff to catch up, especially NVidia and Adobe, but now Cubase 11 Pro runs just fine along with OT and Spitfire libraries. The UI is sleeker, with rounded corners and blah blah blah. But overall the UI changes are different but not necessarily more efficient. The Settings page is totally redesigned in a left-column-navigation with center rows... just need to get used to it. But there are two things that bug me: 1) I like to right click the TaskBar to get the popup to fire up Task Manager. Now it only works if you right-click the _Start Button_. Also, I like to right-click a file (like the beloved OT library.json file) and hit _Send To_ and dump it in Notepad. NOW they only offer a few choices on the popup and you have to click Show More Options, THEN _Send To_. NOT earth-shattering, just pointless.

Nonetheless, I'll eventually upgrade my main tower, for one reason only: *SECURITY*. I've known a couple Microsoft employees on the infrastructure team since 2007 and the new versions are rewritten to thwart the attacks that have been discovered during the lifetime of the previous version. XP Service Pack 2 was a total rewrite for that reason, as was Vista SP2 which nobody downloaded because we all jumped to Win 7, but they actually fixed all of the Vista navigation horrors, but too late, no one saw them or cared. And so on and so on... Win 11 has and will get the latest security focus when things pop up. BTW, that's why Win 10 was forced on everyone, it had ransomware and other security that 7 and 8.1 don't/can't/won't.

It's a frustration for software companies like Steinberg and others because the changes under the hood are often black-box, and to make things like Cubase 11-ready just takes insane testing and tweaks.

Was all that boring enough??


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## Rudianos (Jan 2, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> Installed Win 11 in July on my laptop, first Beta, and eventually the real thing. Actually did the upgrade to test that, normally I do clean installs. Anyway, it took a few months for drivers and other stuff to catch up, especially NVidia and Adobe, but now Cubase 11 Pro runs just fine along with OT and Spitfire libraries. The UI is sleeker, with rounded corners and blah blah blah. But overall the UI changes are different but not necessarily more efficient. The Settings page is totally redesigned in a left-column-navigation with center rows... just need to get used to it. But there are two things that bug me: 1) I like to right click the TaskBar to get the popup to fire up Task Manager. Now it only works if you right-click the _Start Button_. Also, I like to right-click a file (like the beloved OT library.json file) and hit _Send To_ and dump it in Notepad. NOW they only offer a few choices on the popup and you have to click Show More Options, THEN _Send To_. NOT earth-shattering, just pointless.
> 
> Nonetheless, I'll eventually upgrade my main tower, for one reason only: *SECURITY*. I've known a couple Microsoft employees on the infrastructure team since 2007 and the new versions are rewritten to thwart the attacks that have been discovered during the lifetime of the previous version. XP Service Pack 2 was a total rewrite for that reason, as was Vista SP2 which nobody downloaded because we all jumped to Win 7, but they actually fixed all of the Vista navigation horrors, but too late, no one saw them or cared. And so on and so on... Win 11 has and will get the latest security focus when things pop up. BTW, that's why Win 10 was forced on everyone, it had ransomware and other security that 7 and 8.1 don't/can't/won't.
> 
> ...


Not at all, an important perspective. Evidently its more than just UI tweaking. Saw it marketed on a commercial as the ultimate fast load. LOL. Security though, yeah makes sense. Too bad, the programs that fall into oblivion. Not keeping up or given a meaningful effective latitude in Windows.


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## wayne_rowley (Jan 3, 2022)

GeoMax said:


> My question, or fear, is what if my actual harddrive was corrupt and I couldnt "reset" TPM in Windows 11 OS? My CPU would be locked? I guess I didnt try resetting the system BIOS or pulling off the BIOS battery to clear it. Anyone know if that would solve it?


One of the advantages of PCs over Macs currently is the modularity and upgradability. This sounds like it negates that advantage. I.e. If your boot SSD fails, you normally buy/fit a new one and reinstall, but if the motherboard and CPU is locked to the old boot drive then your PC is basically a black box - you’d need to replace those components as well.

Not good, if that’s the case.

Wayne


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## TomislavEP (Jan 3, 2022)

Personally, I'm relieved that my current DAW is greenlighted for Windows 11 but only because I'm sure that I'll be using this system for years after the Windows 10 demise. However, I agree with most of the critics. The facelift is nice but there are no really substantial changes, at least not in the world of music production (at least for now). Also, the newly imposed system requirements will send many still perfectly usable systems out there in early retirement.

Although I was an early adopter of most Windows versions so far, I'm still delaying the update due to the fact that many music software titles and drivers that I use daily are not yet officially compliant, even though everything should work (at least in theory). Plus, the other two systems that I use in addition to my DAW don't meet the requirements.


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## fabian (Jan 3, 2022)

I'm back on Win 10 pro too..I don't like win 11 at all..


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## tomosane (Jan 3, 2022)

I'm a lifelong Windows user and I kept using both XP and Win7 until they reached EOL status... Always felt like upgrading (as opposed to doing a clean install) probably carries too much risk assuming your current OS is still supported and you're happy with the performance and functionality.

Currently I'm running a decent Win 10 ThinkPad from a couple years ago which I'm quite happy with, but I gotta say I'm really scared of what will happen with Windows and real-time audio in particular in the near future. I keep checking laptop reviews/benchmarks on notebookcheck.net and have noticed that almost all recent PC laptops, both high-end and mid-end models and across all major vendors, seem to suffer from DPC latency issues... If this continues with no apparent remedy in sight (I know Dell infamously had really bad latency issues on their XPS15 lineup, which they officially acknowledged but were unable to rectify for years), I'm not sure I'll be confident in dropping upwards of 2500€ on a new laptop down the line, if there is a nontrivial risk that it won't be appropriate for real-time audio.

Recently my boss promised to get me a maxed-out M1 Pro MBP for work, and if I can work with it comfortably I may have to consider switching to Macs for long-term use as well. I hope I won't have to do it, since getting married to the Apple ecosystem obviously carries its own risks, but all the same I'm currently not spending any money on plugins/instruments from developers who seem to be hesitant or unable to port their existing products to the M1 Macs.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Jan 3, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> Installed Win 11 in July on my laptop, first Beta, and eventually the real thing. Actually did the upgrade to test that, normally I do clean installs. Anyway, it took a few months for drivers and other stuff to catch up, especially NVidia and Adobe, but now Cubase 11 Pro runs just fine along with OT and Spitfire libraries. The UI is sleeker, with rounded corners and blah blah blah. But overall the UI changes are different but not necessarily more efficient. The Settings page is totally redesigned in a left-column-navigation with center rows... just need to get used to it. But there are two things that bug me: 1) I like to right click the TaskBar to get the popup to fire up Task Manager. Now it only works if you right-click the _Start Button_. Also, I like to right-click a file (like the beloved OT library.json file) and hit _Send To_ and dump it in Notepad. NOW they only offer a few choices on the popup and you have to click Show More Options, THEN _Send To_. NOT earth-shattering, just pointless.
> 
> Nonetheless, I'll eventually upgrade my main tower, for one reason only: *SECURITY*. I've known a couple Microsoft employees on the infrastructure team since 2007 and the new versions are rewritten to thwart the attacks that have been discovered during the lifetime of the previous version. XP Service Pack 2 was a total rewrite for that reason, as was Vista SP2 which nobody downloaded because we all jumped to Win 7, but they actually fixed all of the Vista navigation horrors, but too late, no one saw them or cared. And so on and so on... Win 11 has and will get the latest security focus when things pop up. BTW, that's why Win 10 was forced on everyone, it had ransomware and other security that 7 and 8.1 don't/can't/won't.
> 
> ...


As an IT Systems Admin, I would like the full PDF version. Complete with a thesis and detailed explanations of all your findings...

So NO, not long enough and CERTAINLY not boring


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## fabian (Jan 3, 2022)

tomosane said:


> I'm a lifelong Windows user and I kept using both XP and Win7 until they reached EOL status... Always felt like upgrading (as opposed to doing a clean install) probably carries too much risk assuming your current OS is still supported and you're happy with the performance and functionality.
> 
> Currently I'm running a decent Win 10 ThinkPad from a couple years ago which I'm quite happy with, but I gotta say I'm really scared of what will happen with Windows and real-time audio in particular in the near future. I keep checking laptop reviews/benchmarks on notebookcheck.net and have noticed that almost all recent PC laptops, both high-end and mid-end models and across all major vendors, seem to suffer from DPC latency issues... If this continues with no apparent remedy in sight (I know Dell infamously had really bad latency issues on their XPS15 lineup, which they officially acknowledged but were unable to rectify for years), I'm not sure I'll be confident in dropping upwards of 2500€ on a new laptop down the line, if there is a nontrivial risk that it won't be appropriate for real-time audio.
> 
> Recently my boss promised to get me a maxed-out M1 Pro MBP for work, and if I can work with it comfortably I may have to consider switching to Macs for long-term use as well. I hope I won't have to do it, since getting married to the Apple ecosystem obviously carries its own risks, but all the same I'm currently not spending any money on plugins/instruments from developers who seem to be hesitant or unable to port their existing products to the M1 Macs.


1 question..why a Laptop ? with 2500 $ you can make a MONSTER PC, with tons of RAM, 2 "NVME" hd's ,iNTEL 9. I own 2 macbooks pro, and my PC is "20 times" faster, I know..pc runs windows..but if you keep 1 pc for AUDIO production ONLY, no antivirus, no ineeded windows "services", no "videogames" video card, no file indexing, etc, your computer will run perfectly well..


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## CSS_SCC (Jan 3, 2022)

wayne_rowley said:


> One of the advantages of PCs over Macs currently is the modularity and upgradability. This sounds like it negates that advantage. I.e. If your boot SSD fails, you normally buy/fit a new one and reinstall, but if the motherboard and CPU is locked to the old boot drive then your PC is basically a black box - you’d need to replace those components as well.
> 
> Not good, if that’s the case.
> 
> Wayne


You can still install Windows on a different drive. Yes, it's more complicated if you have encrypted your drive on your own but, to quote from here: https://www.howtogeek.com/234826/how-to-enable-full-disk-encryption-on-windows-10/
"Many new PCs that ship with Windows 10 will automatically have “Device Encryption” enabled. This feature was first introduced in Windows 8.1, and there are specific hardware requirements for this. Not every PC will have this feature, but some will.
There’s another limitation, too—it only actually encrypts your drive if you sign into Windows with a Microsoft account. Your recovery key is then uploaded to Microsoft’s servers. This will help you recover your files if you ever can’t log into your PC."

So, in a certain sense, this complaint is really old news as Windows 8.1 was released in October 2013. Windows 10 was a free update from Windows 8 and Windows 11 is a free update from Windows 10.

I mean, as curiosity, during lockdown, I had installed Windows 7 on an old laptop with Intel Core i7 3630QM and was able to update to each and every version of Windows up to Windows 10 with the latest security updates no issues.

With regard to Windows 11 base requirements: TPM2.0 was released in 2014, Intel gen 8 CPU were released in October 2017, Ryzen Zen+ were released in April 2018, Windows 10 is still actively supported until October 2025. So, at that point your hardware will be at least 8 years old. I don't think I will be complaining about not being able to install the latest and greatest features.

As a side note, you can still install Windows 11 on older computers, it is just not recommended and the available software updates will be very limited. Furthermore, from time to time Microsoft has released critical security updates even for Windows 7, the latest being in September 2021.


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## wayne_rowley (Jan 3, 2022)

CSS_SCC said:


> You can still install Windows on a different drive.


Isn't that what @GeoMax tried to do but it wouldn't let him? 

It's not what you can do currently that bothers me. My work laptop died earlier in the year - it was a Dell. Of course the drive was protected with BitLocker. We were able to transplant the SSD into a different but identical (same model) laptop. Once we supplied the recovery key the machine was up and running.

It sounds like things are getting more strict though with Windows 11 and the new TPM technology - more like a Mac. I'm currently a Mac user, and I know my machine is a black box. Yes, I can upgrade the memory but due to the security protection if a motherboard component fails then it needs to be replaced as a system/box. That's not the case with PC - and one reason I am thinking of moving to PC for music. I like the idea of being able to easily upgrade, or replace a single failed component. 

But if TPM and Windows 11 are tying everything together so that you *can't do that* anymore then there is no benefit. I may have bought the components separately but once configured with TPM they are a single unit.

@GeoMax had to put his hold drive in to get it to boot and then reset TPM... doesn't bode well for getting a machine up and running if your boot drive fails, or motherboard fails... neither will work with an alternate bit of hardware because of TPM.

Unless I've misunderstood...?

Wayne


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## CSS_SCC (Jan 3, 2022)

OK, I might be a little bit on the technical side but every time I get a new system I just make a full back-up (that way if anything goes horribly wrong I can just go back to the "bloatware" version).
I then wipe everything and install it from scratch myself. I download the latest official install image from Microsoft, and install everything on my computer as needed. If I run into any issues, I have a few other computers where I can download things and look for solutions. But it has not been really the case outside activating TPM in the BIOS of my motherboard when I got to install Windows 11 as it's not called TPM2.0 in the BIOS but fTPM and I didn't realise at first that was the section.
I don't usually encrypt my drives on my desktops as if they have physical access, then, that's not really your issue. Windows 11 runs fine without encrypting your boot drive. And I have moved Windows boot drives between machines so many times without a hitch that I am amazed how pain free that was - including from Intel to AMD and vice-versa. Obviously, I don't recommend doing that on your work machine, but, in extremis, that's an option.
Coming from the era of CP/M and company, this is really amazing how much I can tinker with the settings and the system will still boot. 

Don't get me wrong, the list of niggles that I have with regards to Windows in general and, in particular, with Windows 11 is extremely long. It's just the fact that I can still fix it "my way" and that I can be up and running from a second boot drive that really keeps me on the platform. I have tried Mac - too many hardware limitations and the premium price of anything, I have tried Linux and too many of the software solutions that I need to work haven't been yet ported to Linux. Android, iOS - not yet ready for my usage - just try connecting a dozen external devices to your gadget.


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## GeoMax (Jan 3, 2022)

I have moved away from backing up OS and lean more toward a quick rebuild. OS and installed apps are the only thing on the boot drive. No data, nothing I cant afford to lose. About 4TB of sample libraries are on their own drives, and my projects drives are isolated as well. I back those up to external USB drives periodically.

I havent found any good references online to answer my dead OS drive scenario. It may be as simple as popping BIOS battery, but I would think that would be too easy. I am not going to test it, as I cant afford to brake my machine right now.

Another thing i could try was to "reset" TPM in Windows 11, and then go turn it off in the BIOS to see if I can still boot. If so, I would prefer that. I dont need the security for the CPU.


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## tomosane (Jan 3, 2022)

fabian said:


> 1 question..why a Laptop ? with 2500 $ you can make a MONSTER PC, with tons of RAM, 2 "NVME" hd's ,iNTEL 9. I own 2 macbooks pro, and my PC is "20 times" faster, I know..pc runs windows..but if you keep 1 pc for AUDIO production ONLY, no antivirus, no ineeded windows "services", no "videogames" video card, no file indexing, etc, your computer will run perfectly well..


Yes, this is of course very true and the possibility of assembling a tower (or smaller case these days!) with your own specs is a large part of why I stayed firmly on the PC camp so long. But these days I travel so much that I need the portability of a laptop for my main machine, which I suppose isn't a very rare use case after all. At least I personally know plenty of people who use a laptop as their audio workhorse.


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## antames (Jan 3, 2022)

Eventually we will all have to move to Windows 11 as Windows 10 will be EOL (end of life) in October 2025. This always happens with every new OS and then it ends up not being as bad as people imagined.


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## jblongz (Jan 4, 2022)

Mac user here liking Windows 11 on new build. Had win 10 Pro a few months prior. 11 brings a few Mac features that I appreciate like Multiple Workspaces (Desktops), App dock similar to MacOS, and dark mode. Otherwise everything else feels like Win 10.


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## Bluemount Score (Jan 4, 2022)

My new Laptop came with Windows 11. Sceptical at first, I like it, but wouldn't have mind sticking to 10 at all... the new GUI looks pretty, that's it.


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## quickbrownf0x (Jan 4, 2022)

I wonder how many of you have moved the Start Menu or whatever it's called now back to the left, because that's the first thing I did.


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## sostenuto (Jan 4, 2022)

Either OK here. Much frustrated with 'seeming' inability to have multi Taskbar rows, or drag key icons into presently full (Left Display _ of duals ) Taskbar. Kinda screwed now with all (3) Desktop PC(s) on 'limited' 11 Pro _ not qualified for latest Updates.


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## CSS_SCC (Jan 5, 2022)

With the new 12th generation of Intel CPUs, unfortunatelly you'll have no choice but to use Windows 11 (or Linux): https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/202...s-bring-up-to-14-cores-to-high-end-portables/
"These laptop chips use Intel's new hybrid processor architecture, which combines larger, faster performance cores with smaller, more efficient cores (P-cores and E-cores, respectively). How many P-cores and E-cores you get depends on the processor you're buying, and you'll need an operating system that supports Intel's "Thread Director" technology to get the most performance out of the chips. Windows 11 supports it now, Linux support is in the works, and Windows 10 doesn't have it and won't be getting it."


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## jblongz (Jan 5, 2022)

CSS_SCC said:


> "These laptop chips use Intel's new hybrid processor architecture, which combines larger, faster performance cores with smaller, more efficient cores (P-cores and E-cores, respectively)"


Wow, so they're following Apple's lead after all. Kind of weird of them, but I see how it becomes an issue with older systems. Guess I chose the right time for AMD.


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## GeoMax (Jan 6, 2022)

Well I was experimenting today and I turned off TPM on my Windows 11 machine!

I performed a "reset" in Windows 11 TPM.MSC, then booted into BIOS and disabled Trusted Security on the Motherboard.

I had to sign in with my Windows account and setup new PIN, etc, but I am now running Windows 11 without TPM enabled.

Update: Found this link for ramifications for turning off TPM:
https://nerdschalk.com/can-you-disable-tpm-and-secure-boot-after-installing-windows-11-what-happens/


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## easyrider (Jan 6, 2022)

CSS_SCC said:


> With the new 12th generation of Intel CPUs, unfortunatelly you'll have no choice but to use Windows 11 (or Linux): https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/202...s-bring-up-to-14-cores-to-high-end-portables/
> "These laptop chips use Intel's new hybrid processor architecture, which combines larger, faster performance cores with smaller, more efficient cores (P-cores and E-cores, respectively). How many P-cores and E-cores you get depends on the processor you're buying, and you'll need an operating system that supports Intel's "Thread Director" technology to get the most performance out of the chips. Windows 11 supports it now, Linux support is in the works, and Windows 10 doesn't have it and won't be getting it."


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## Quasar (Jan 6, 2022)

antames said:


> Eventually we will all have to move to Windows 11 as Windows 10 will be EOL (end of life) in October 2025. This always happens with every new OS and then it ends up not being as bad as people imagined.


This is true. If you go back far enough, you can find people loudly proclaiming that they're staying on Windows 98SE or ME, because XP is too bloated or too this or that... The cycles of criticism & rejection to acceptance & adoption have become utterly predictable.

That said, I have no plans to move my essentially offline workstation from 10 to 11 anytime soon or necessarily ever. Until a long overdue rebuild last year I was still on W7, which was fine also.


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