# New ELGAR thread



## creativeforge

Hi all, my apologies, please can you repost your comments and mockups here? All those who participated in the thread should also have a copy of the posts responses in their email inboxes from the beginning.

A member asked for his profile and posts to be removed. As a result, some threads were inadvertently removed. This is why we hesitate to perform this action. This was an honest mistake - moderators were not involved, only Andre (he's human too).

I own this one, so sorry all. Again, I humbly ask your forgiveness for this...

Andre

EDIT: New ELGAR thread here (thanks prodigal son!): 
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/elgar-test-take-2.50904/


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## Frederick Russ

This was indeed an honest mistake. Our sincere apologies to the community. Had we known the action would interfere with existing threads themselves, we would have approached it differently. Sorry.


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## chillbot

Dang that thread was getting good and an even better read. What happened to Orcel??


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## sleepy hollow

I assume it was Orcel who requested the removal of his profile and posts.


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## chillbot

If so that seems rather rash... and... is this really allowed? Like I could say, hey I'm mad at this place please erase everything I've ever posted? Just wondering. And if so seems like it might have been better to give the cat a couple days to cool off first.


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## sleepy hollow

Yes, too rash indeed.

Some kind of 'waiting period'...hmm... I wonder if _that _would be allowed. (I'm not saying it's a bad idea btw)


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## Udo

But there's of course the nightly backup of the site, so the thread will be restored soon (minus Orcel's posts, if required).


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## creativeforge

So let's go, who is going to get this going again?


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## Sebastianmu

I find that to be quite a sad incident.


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## creativeforge

Yes, it is a sad accident... I keep wondering if there is any chance that people will restart the conversation using their former posts? It would be even sadder to lose it all...


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## Jimmy Hellfire

Yes, sad it is. And so unnecessary. Just once again shows that it often takes only one of *those* people to run things down the drain.


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## sleepy hollow

prodigalson started a new thread:

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/elgar-test-take-2.50904/


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## Sebastianmu

creativeforge said:


> Yes, it is a sad accident...


I didn't mean the vanishing of the thread (which is sad, too, of course, but to a lesser degree); I think it's sad that someone felt the need to leave the forum because of what has been said in that thread.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Orcel left the forum. I was talking to him. Honestly after such thing I would prefer that as well. Suprised? I am not. Pretty dissapointed on some certain people here and ecspecially to the puppy dogs bowing down to everything what some certain stars postulate - just because they have their status on vic.


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## creativeforge

Hi Alexander, I don't really know all that happened. However my experience has been that people on forums like these work through a lot of stuff through conversations and dialogues, even when there are disagreements. I'm sorry he felt he needed to leave and erase any trace of his involvement, and I sure understand how this could seem the best thing for him at the time, to get some distance from the events, but that would be for him to assume of course. I personally always value dialogue and process.

As for the charges of calling other members puppy dogs, and demeaning the integrity of their motivations, that too is a personal opinion, which is fine to have. People are people, as imperfect as humans can be, I think people still have the right to have favorites and respect certain members or composers, but that doesn't mean they check their brains at the door. 

Peace,

Andre


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## AlexanderSchiborr

creativeforge said:


> Hi Alexander, I don't really know all that happened. However my experience has been that people on forums like these work through a lot of stuff through conversations and dialogues, even when there are disagreements. I'm sorry he felt he needed to leave and erase any trace of his involvement, and I sure understand how this could seem the best thing for him at the time, to get some distance from the events, but that would be for him to assume of course. I personally always value dialogue and process.
> 
> As for the charges of calling other members puppy dogs, and demeaning the integrity of their motivations, that too is a personal opinion, which is fine to have. People are people, as imperfect as humans can be, I think people still have the right to have favorites and respect certain members or composers, but that doesn't mean they check their brains at the door.
> 
> Peace,
> 
> Andre



Yes That is true what you say. I just felt that way so I said it. But I hope he will come back and gain energy out of something very negative because that would be the best thing: Not to get let you down.


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## Jerome Vonhogen

creativeforge said:


> Hi all, my apologies, please can you repost your comments and mockups here? All those who participated in the thread should also have a copy of the posts responses in their email inboxes from the beginning.
> 
> A member asked for his profile and posts to be removed. As a result, some threads were inadvertently removed. This is why we hesitate to perform this action. This was an honest mistake - moderators were not involved, only Andre (he's human too).
> 
> I own this one, so sorry all. Again, I humbly ask your forgiveness for this...
> 
> Andre
> 
> EDIT: New ELGAR thread here (thanks prodigal son!):
> http://vi-control.net/community/threads/elgar-test-take-2.50904/


 

I don't get it. The thread was a disgrace, so why would you want it back? 

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## blougui

The OP is a professional/active musician and was writing on VIC by his artist name. having had such rude and définitive comments on a public forum by a top player in the game is surely a thing one pro would like to avoid.


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## Sebastianmu

blougui said:


> The OP is a professional/active musician and was writing on VIC by his artist name. having had such rude and définitive comments on a public forum by a top player in the game is surely a thing one pro would like to avoid.


Let's take the time to listen to his 1st piano concerto!


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## Jimmy Hellfire

Well - not quite the diarrheic amoeba and musical idiot he's been called recently, isn't he.


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## creativeforge

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Yes That is true what you say. I just felt that way so I said it. But I hope he will come back and gain energy out of something very negative because that would be the best thing: Not to get let you down.



I couldn't agree more, Alexander, very wise words...


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## creativeforge

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> I don't get it. The thread was a disgrace, so why would you want it back? - Jerome Vonhögen



Seemingly there were valuable contributions, Jerome, and the thread wasn't censored: it disappeared altogether by mistake...


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## creativeforge

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Well - not quite the diarrheic amoeba and musical idiot he's been called recently, isn't he.



Wowzers...  that 2:09 and forward...


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## Resoded

I missed all the drama, so I looked to the pages in googles cach.

Wow. A very famous member and an infamous member tag team a composer and burn the guy to the ground. No wonder why some people are afraid of posting their music/mock ups on this forum.

I just hope the guy who posted the thread can keep his motivation and manages to take the criticism constructively. Did he delete his account?

The Elitist Pitch Fork Snob-Mob at their finest. VI-C's eloquent response to the youtube comments section.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Resoded said:


> I missed all the drama, so I looked to the pages in googles cach.
> 
> Wow. A very famous member and an infamous member tag team a composer and burn the guy to the ground. No wonder why some people are afraid of posting their music/mock ups on this forum.
> 
> I just hope the guy who posted the thread can keep his motivation and manages to take the criticism constructively. Did he delete his account?
> 
> The Elitist Pitch Fork Snob-Mob at their finest. VI-C's eloquent response to the youtube comments section.




AMEN...I couldn´t agree so much more.


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## Sebastianmu

Resoded said:


> I missed all the drama, so I looked to the pages in googles cach.
> 
> Wow. A very famous member and an infamous member tag team a composer and burn the guy to the ground. No wonder why some people are afraid of posting their music/mock ups on this forum.
> 
> I just hope the guy who posted the thread can keep his motivation and manages to take the criticism constructively. Did he delete his account?
> 
> The Elitist Pitch Fork Snob-Mob at their finest. VI-C's eloquent response to the youtube comments section.



I don't think now being rude into the other direction is helpful, either. The Elgar mock-ups were bad, and some of the criticism was fair. But I think it's obvious that no one in the world has a right to belittle Cyril Orcel's musicianship. Have you ever heard John Adams' mock ups of his own pieces? They are terrible! Does that make him a bad composer? Not at all! It's just two very different skill sets.


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## Markus S

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Orcel left the forum.



That is a pity.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Sebastianmu said:


> I don't think now being rude into the other direction is helpful, either. The Elgar mock-ups were bad, and some of the criticism was fair. But I think it's obvious that no one in the world has a right to belittle Cyril Orcel's musicianship. Have you ever heard John Adams' mock ups of his own pieces? They are terrible! Does that make him a bad composer? Not at all! It's just two very different skill sets.



I won´t call that rude but more the truth, and that is very unfortunate to face members here on Vic which are like that. Rude is what they said. Wanna have a short excerpt? "Take your stinky paws of the music" (wasn´t that repeat?!) Hans Zimmer: "diletantic etc. etc" "cheap sounding". There was much more...I saved a lot of that stuff what they said just to know how unprofessional they treated orcel here. And it was not only that. From reading through the comments I got the impression that they even had their fun with that "treatment". And that sais in my opinion a lot about their personality. I won´t ever ever ever consider to work for such individuals regardless how much money they would ever throw at me.


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## Resoded

Sebastianmu said:


> I don't think now being rude into the other direction is helpful, either.



Some valid points for sure. I'm going to leave the middle ground diplomacy for you and other debaters. This to me was not a middle ground occasion.


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## Sebastianmu

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I won´t call that rude but more the truth


One can say the truth in a rude way, which is what happened in the first Elgar thread. I certainly don't think I'd like to see it happen here again. It's all about the words! So, just relax, everyone, will you?


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## creativeforge

Thanks Resoded.

I was shocked at the *VERY FIRST *response the OP received. Good grief! You don't respond to a post that way, even less when you actually read and understand what the OP wrote, and his intentions, expressed humbly and in a vulnerable and trusting way. That has to be the meanest b.s. ever. To suggest that this feedback would have any redemptive quality, is, for me, a sin. Yes, the word "disgraceful" totally applies in this case.

*EDIT:* *[*To be fair, I reconsider my comment above as some suggested it was done in good sport as a kind of chuckle. It's "possible." If only he didn't double-down again and again...*]*

*MUSICIANS "HELPING" MUSICIANS, not crushing their spirit. 

The OP wasn't applying for a job, but opening up an exercise for all to contribute. His questions were clear.
*
The term *MENTORING *comes to mind, as an encouraged attitude from those who are our elders in the music world. Let's encourage one another to keep this a safe place where we can be ourselves without being personally insulted because we dare to show some flaws, which we already pointed out existed.

*EDIT: [*After reading the thread, there are some tough lessons to be learned in the business, but HZ's interventions were done in the spirit of the above - MENTORING. He seems to know how not to break, but to pull forward. Invaluable content was lost... I hope the OP will come back...*]*

This does not apply to many people, but if the first post you are burning to write in response to a request for feedback is to not only put down someone and crush them verbally publicly, but also offer no related work to illustrate problematic areas and suggest improvements, then that contribution is pretty useless and abusive, an exercise in futility. 

Try something different, maybe? In all things, we should strive to be kind and encouraging one another to strive for excellence with at least some empathy. After a few posts, it became clear that that thread was struggling to remain about the main thing. Good efforts on the part of many, though, but by that time, the deed was sadly done. We lost another respected member.

Beauty, not aesthetics, could save the world... 

My .02, peace all,

Andre


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## creativeforge

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> I don't get it. The thread was a disgrace, so why would you want it back? - Jerome Vonhögen


 Some members were looking for their conversations. Certainly not to bring back the denigrating remarks from one of the members. We are moving on, I believe...


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## Baron Greuner

That's a shame to hear Cyril is longer here. I hope he comes back because I like him and find his attitude very genuine. What do I mean by that? To me, he is lucky because he has this great verve for giving the music he likes a really good go. 
OK, I think it's fair to say that it fails a lot of the time. But that doesn't really matter. It's the wanting to have a go at something you love that appeals to me, regardless.
I can also see the other point of view from the other side of the coin. I really don't like apportionment of blame on something like this, because there really isn't any at all imo. Why? Because people can have just as much a genuine view about what they find good or bad in the same way that others like to give it a go, as previously mentioned.
There's an old axiom in music. You need to write a lot of crap to find things out. That can also mean making a lot of unwanted noise, until it all comes good and starts to take shape.

It's a bit like learning to play an instrument. At first you feel like you're a block of wood and nothing is happening. Time and practice is the key.


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## Jimmy Hellfire

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> From reading through the comments I got the impression that they even had their fun with that "treatment".



Definitely had that impression too. I made a few comments in which I expressed my amusement over the more colorful "contributions" - amusement, as in "laughing at the class-clown". In hindsight, it bothered me because after seeing the direction the thread was starting to take, I hoped that I didn't make the impression that I was actually applauding that narcissistic twaddle. That's definitely what some have been doing.

What irked me the most is that you have been very frank about the inappropriate remarks and name-calling, and in return have been confronted with inane princible debates. That whole "criticism is important for an artist to grow" nonsense, whereas you weren't having an issue with the musical criticism, but clearly with the disrespectful treating of forum members. It seemed to me that some were deliberately going out of their way to purposely miss that distinction.


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## Baron Greuner

Look you guys. I really think you need to get this 'they had some fun' stuff out of your systems here. And anyway, so what if they did? I had plenty of fun on that thread perhaps in a different way. Any time Gunther shows up, I always have fun! 

Criticism. Come on you guys grow a pair of bollocks! I mean really if you think just because its the written word that is somehow different to what is said in real life situations, you need to get out more. Real life consequences in say, a studio can be a lot harsher than that.
I've had 6 days of non stop critique on ONE track from my library, none of it particularly good and quite a lot of it fairly damning. You get used to it and it's all about getting things right. It's not personal. It's sounds harsh, but it's really for the benefit of the recipient.


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## germancomponist

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> From reading through the comments I got the impression that they even had their fun with that "treatment". And that sais in my opinion a lot about their personality. I won´t ever ever ever consider to work for such individuals regardless how much money they would ever throw at me.


How can you say this???
I do not know what life experiences you've done that take you on such an idea. But I can tell you: That's not true definitely!


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Baron Greuner said:


> Look you guys. I really think you need to get this 'they had some fun' stuff out of your systems here. And anyway, so what if they did? I had plenty of fun on that thread perhaps in a different way. Any time Gunther shows up, I always have fun!
> 
> Criticism. Come on you guys grow a pair of bollocks! I mean really if you think just because its the written word that is somehow different to what is said in real life situations, you need to get out more. Real life consequences in say, a studio can be a lot harsher than that.
> I've had 6 days of non stop critique on ONE track from my library, none of it particularly good and quite a lot of it fairly damning. You get used to it and it's all about getting things right. It's not personal. It's sounds harsh, but it's really for the benefit of the recipient.



I think you are not willing to make a difference between a critic OR beeing rude and impolite and being personal, do you? Next time I dump you mentally down the toilet, don´t be offended.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

germancomponist said:


> How can you say this???
> I do not know what life experiences you've done that take you on such an idea. But I can tell you: That's not true devinitiv!



Allright!


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## Sebastianmu

Baron Greuner said:


> To me, he is lucky because he has this great verve for giving the music he likes a really good go.
> OK, I think it's fair to say that it fails a lot of the time.


Uh, so you _didn't_ take the time to listen to his piano concerto?


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## Baron Greuner

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I think you are not willing to make a difference between a critic OR beeing rude and impolite and being personal, do you? Next time I dump you down the toilet, don´t be offended.



Alexander you are soft! I knew you were soft. 

I expected to be talking to a Teuton when I heard your piece of music and now I find a 'softy'. 

I don't need to defend anyone on that thread. Especially not Hans or Piet (whom I've known 'virtually' for years). OK?

You are talking about what in your opinion constitutes rude. I don't regard it as rude. Harsh? Yes. But not rude.

Honestly Alexander, you and Jimmy Hellfire are beginning to sound like Hillary Clinton.

Yes, I hope Cyril comes back and I'm sure he will. Why? Because _everyone_ want s him back I would bet.


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## Baron Greuner

Sebastianmu said:


> Uh, so you _didn't_ take the time to listen to his piano concerto?


No I'm sorry I didn't catch that. Wish I had.


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## Jimmy Hellfire

Baron Greuner said:


> Criticism. Come on you guys grow a pair of bollocks! I mean really if you think just because its the written word that is somehow different to what is said in real life situations, you need to get out more. Real life consequences in say, a studio can be a lot harsher than that.



It's interesting that you would equate "suffering fools" to "growing a pair". But I'm gonna let that be your personal problem.


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## creativeforge

Rude: "If I were you, I'd apologize for the entire thing. One almost hopes the Elgar Estate manages to find out where you live and comes to take your music computer away, cause this degree of musical mutilation is deeply offensive."


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## Baron Greuner

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> It's interesting that you would equate "suffering fools" to "growing a pair". But I'm gonna let that be your personal problem.


That's fine Jimmy. I can handle that.


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## Baron Greuner

creativeforge said:


> Rude: "If I were you, I'd apologize for the entire thing. One almost hopes the Elgar Estate manages to find out where you live and comes to take your music computer away, cause this degree of musical mutilation is deeply offensive."



I thought that was funny. But I can also understand your pov at the same time.


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## Sebastianmu

Baron Greuner said:


> No I'm sorry I didn't catch that. Wish I had.


Well, do it now. And then reconsider if anyone has a right of talking down to the person who wrote that piece of music.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Baron Greuner said:


> Alexander you are soft! I knew you were soft.
> 
> I expected to be talking to a Teuton when I heard your piece of music and now I find a 'softy'.
> 
> I don't need to defend anyone on that thread. Especially not Hans or Piet (whom I've known 'virtually' for years). OK?
> 
> You are talking about what in your opinion constitutes rude. I don't regard it as rude. Harsh? Yes. But not rude.
> 
> Honestly Alexander, you and Jimmy Hellfire are beginning to sound like Hillary Clinton.
> 
> Yes, I hope Cyril comes back and I'm sure he will. Why? Because _everyone_ want s him back I would bet.



Well then, that is an opinon. Thank you  Maybe I am then a softy when it comes to such "treatments". At least I like softcakes. *joking* Come one ..we are all composing people here, none of us is perfect so we are all in the same boat sitting so lets "paddle" together not against each other.


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## Baron Greuner

Yes I will listen to it Sebastian if someone would be so kind to provide a link.

Oh Look listen you lads! No one here is paddling against anyone. Fuck me, Cyril clicked the like button on some of things I said to him on that thread. I also clicked the like button on his posts and Hans, and Piet and Gunther and just about everyone else. It was fun and I can't make myself believe that Cyril has taken this so badly. It's music FFS. You have to get over it or you're going to have a tough time of it later on in life.

What is the problem here????


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## Sebastianmu




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## germancomponist

Sebastianmu said:


> Well, do it now. And then reconsider if anyone has a right of talking down to the person who wrote that piece of music.


I don't get it. His posted piece here was bad, very bad, and all comments/criticism were meant to this Piece and not to him personally.


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## Lassi Tani

Baron Greuner said:


> What is the problem here????



I don't understand some here don't get it. Maybe for some it's fun, but when repeat attacked him verbally, calling him orcelian fungus, take your dirty paws off music and an amoeba. HZ called the mockup artless, which is fine, but going to personal level as repeat did, shouldn't be tolerated.

Is it okay, if I start calling in the Member's Compositions someone anamoeba and who posted a mockup: Take your dirty paws off music? And that he's some kind of fungus who's spreading unprofessionality here in the forums?


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## Jimmy Hellfire

Baron Greuner said:


> Oh Look listen you lads! No one here is paddling against anyone. Fuck me, Cyril clicked the like button on some of things I said to him on that thread. I also clicked the like button on his posts and Hans, and Piet and Gunther and just about everyone else. It was fun and I can't make myself believe that Cyril has taken this so badly. It's music FFS. You have to get over it or you're going to have a tough time of it later on in life.
> 
> What is the problem here????



Judging from pictures, Cyril doesn't exactly look like a youngster; I don't think you'd have to be concerned about him being able to handle life.

Since apparently one can be nonchalant and chill about "them boys having fun", then why is it such a problem that others happen to choose to call out deplorable behavior when they see it? Don't fool yourself. It's not like we're being dramatic or all woefully stricken about the whole thing, like you seem to imagine. We're pointing out a grievance because we think it's right to do so. You see, contrary to the widespread colloquialism, growing some balls isn't all that much of a feat. It simply comes with the territory. Making them hard is a different thing.  Maybe it's also just a matter of having some standards.

Cyril seems to not have taken the mud-slinging well. I don't know why. But apparently it bothered him. I understand that because I see why it would. I'm not saying it would have affected me in the same way it might have affected him. Everyone takes things differently, in an individual way. Monkey business of the re-peatian quality bounces off of me, I can assure you of that. I'm not being the whinger here because I'm so offended. I'm being vocal out of solidarity for someone else. I'm not gonna sit there and go "grow some balls and relax duuuude" when someone's been obviously aggrieved. That's all - no more, but definitely also no less.


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## mc_deli

@creativeforge @Frederick Russ 
My opinion guys is that you should have moderated the personal attack in repeat's first post. It's fine to assassinate the work but not the author.
Generally I think there could be a bit more moderation on the forum - a bit more moving posts, a few more gentle reminders about "helping" etc.

The other point I have observed is that: it is the case when "he who shall not be named" posts, then there tends to be a roll of posts where members try and flame to illicit further response. There's not really anything you can do about this. It is kinda understandable. But I hope it doesn't put off "he" and other senior professionals from posting here.

But hey, I think you did the right thing in following O's wishes. Cheers to Elgar everybody!


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## Sebastianmu

germancomponist said:


> I don't get it. His posted piece here was bad, very bad, and all comments/criticism were meant to this Piece and not to him personally.


_Not to him personally?_ He was insulted, ridiculed and talked down to like a schoolboy, while, infact, he is an accomplished musician many here could have learned from a lot. Listening to his 1st Piano Concerto gives you an idea of the great loss the forum unnecessarily suffered because someone couldn't restrain himself. It's just _sad_!


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## Baron Greuner

Well there you go Sebastian. Cyril is 10 times a better musician than I'll ever be.

There's an old saying about Stevie Wonder. He stopped writing meaningful songs when he discovered synthesisers.

Maybe there's some truth in that. Why Cyril even needs to bother with mocking up Elgar when he can write piano concertos of his own is probably only known to him.

I've never really understood why people feel the need to mock up any of these classical pieces actually. It's the equivalent of painting by numbers. Why would anyone want to re -paint The Nightwatch, for example. Even if it turned out to brilliant, WTF is the point of it.

Reading some of your posts on this, I've got to say that while your intentions are admirable, it's a bit like I just wondered into a Salvation Army meeting by mistake.

Cyril does-not-need-to leave-here. No one wants that.


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## emid

I have been a silent reader all this time. Knowing that Orcel has left this forum due to the delusional grandeur of some (now disappeared) is quite embarrassing and is actually a plain insult and a failure of the motto of this forum. I hope he comes back and disregards others but takes Mr. Hans advise as a professional critique by an accomplished musician.


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## rocking.xmas.man

well actually the reasons he did this and anyone should are quite obvious. He wanted to try out which libraries could be used to achieve the sonic quality he was looking for. In my opinion the piece he used might not translate to the sound he was looking for too well, but anyways doing mockups of classical pieces are really great to learn about how these compositions work. And to train your playing and programming skills to make something that just sounds good. You're never to old/skilled/professional for these exercises.


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## Daryl

Baron Greuner said:


> I've never really understood why people feel the need to mock up any of these classical pieces actually. It's the equivalent of painting by numbers. Why would anyone want to re -paint The Nightwatch, for example. Even if it turned out to brilliant, WTF is the point of it.


For me the point is that there is an immediate A/B to be had with real recordings. For example one of the main criticisms I have of of sample based music is that the dynamics and articulations are often very crude, boring, obvious and repetitive. By mocking up an existing piece of orchestral music the mocker-up-er-er would immediately realise that they had to use far more subtlety to achieve an expressive piece of music, which may not be apparent with their own music, that relies on loud swooshes and brass farts, in order to cover up the lack of substance. This might then lead to a more thoughtful way of composing and an improvement in artistic quality.

D


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## re-peat

Baron Greuner said:


> Stevie Wonder (...) stopped writing meaningful songs when he discovered synthesisers.


Sure about that, Baron? Stevie Wonder’s most Wonderful decade — bookended by “Music Of My Mind” (1972) and the retrospective “Original Musiquarium” (1982) — is one long feast of stunning and classic songs, the vast majority of which has some of the most imaginative and creative synthesizer-work of the period.

_


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## Baron Greuner

rocking.xmas.man said:


> In my opinion the piece he used might not translate to the sound he was looking for too well, but anyways doing mockups of classical pieces are really great to learn about how these compositions work. And to train your playing and programming skills to make something that just sounds good. You're never to old/skilled/professional for these exercises.



Yes OK. That is partly why I put up Sospiri by Elgar and kind of steer Cyril into using larger string sections that might be easier to handle versus the very detailed smaller ones. There's really no hiding place when you go down the chamber size with sample libraries. I'm having the very same issue myself at this moment. You have to really work hard to get it to sound acceptable.

I will take a certain non-argumentative angle on your point about learning about compositions. When I was learning about compositions they weren't even computers, never mind sample libraries. I'm not completely sure that sample libraries are necessarily a great way to learn about compositions. Possibly? Playing them on the other hand……..


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## Baron Greuner

re-peat said:


> Sure about that, Baron? Stevie Wonder’s most Wonderful decade — bookended by “Music Of My Mind” (1972) and “Original Musiquarium” (1982) — is one long feast of stunning and classic songs, the vast majority of which has some of the most imaginative and creative synthesizer-work of the period.
> 
> _




Hahah! You've been selective with your quote there Piet. I said ' there's an old saying about……' first. And then 'maybe' _maybe_ there's some truth in that.


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## Baron Greuner

Daryl said:


> For me the point is that there is an immediate A/B to be had with real recordings. For example one of the main criticisms I have of of sample based music is that the dynamics and articulations are often very crude, boring, obvious and repetitive. By mocking up an existing piece of orchestral music the mocker-up-er-er would immediately realise that they had to use far more subtlety to achieve an expressive piece of music, which may not be apparent with their own music, that relies on loud swooshes and brass farts, in order to cover up the lack of substance. This might then lead to a more thoughtful way of composing and an improvement in artistic quality.
> 
> D



Yes good point. As you well know Daryl, samples are little snap shots in time and ridiculously difficult to get sounding great. As Cyril was finding. For my part, I'm a bit of a brass farter and will do anything to cover up my shortcomings. Farting is obligatory in my case.


----------



## Sebastianmu

Baron Greuner said:


> it's a bit like I just wondered into a Salvation Army meeting by mistake.


I don't think I get that. Was it "great loss"? Maybe I get it, then.


----------



## re-peat

Baron Greuner said:


> Hahah! You've been selective with your quote there Piet. I said ' there's an old saying about……' first. And then 'maybe' _maybe_ there's some truth in that.


OK. Just saying the old saying is wrong. Wronger than July.

_


----------



## Baron Greuner

Sebastianmu said:


> I don't think I get that. Was it "great loss"? Maybe I get it, then.



Sebastian, I think I've tried to be fairly balanced on the subject of Cyril, his musicianship, one side and the other side's attitudes. I don't think there's much more to add on that. Thanks.


----------



## Sebastianmu

Baron Greuner said:


> Sebastian, I think I've tried to be fairly balanced on the subject of Cyril, his musicianship, one side and the other side's attitudes. I don't think there's much more to add on that. Thanks.


Sure! (I was just curious what you meant with your remark.)


----------



## Michael K. Bain

creativeforge said:


> Rude: "If I were you, I'd apologize for the entire thing. One almost hopes the Elgar Estate manages to find out where you live and comes to take your music computer away, cause this degree of musical mutilation is deeply offensive."


I interpreted that remark as complete sarcasm.
Orcel apologized for a playing mistake that repeat thought wasn't a big deal at all, so he used sarcasm to convey those feelings. For example, if someone who is only 5 or 10 pounds overweight tells me "I am sooooo fat", I say things like "Oh yeah, you better watch out - you'll be needing two airline seats soon enough, and i hear they charge for the second one as well now". The danger of that kind of humor is that some people don't understand sarcasm and will take it seriously. 
At least, that was my interpretation of repeat's comment. Did he come back to thread later and prove my interpretation wrong?


----------



## rocking.xmas.man

yes for sure he did. You've probably not read much from him before. he is not the kind of guy that speaks in sarcasm very often (at least on the internet). I think he is expressing what he thinks quite honestly.


----------



## KEnK

I just listened to Cyril's Piano Concerto, all 3 movements.

Frankly, I can't see why anyone w/ that level of compositional ability
would give a rat's ass about what anyone thinks, famous or not.
Especially at a forum of so-called peers.

I've been at this for a very long time.
The music business is ugly. That is certain.
You will be chewed up, spit out, stolen from, and cast aside regularly,
no matter what level of success you achieve-
And there are many people right behind you, ready to volunteer for that privilege.
It has always been that way.

I say that not from a place of bitterness or cynicism,
but from an acceptance of hard cold reality.

Grow a pair? You'll need more than that.
You do this because you must,
not because it is "nice" or "fair".

and that's me helping my fellow musicians for today. 
sorry

k


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

KEnK said:


> I've been at this for a very long time.
> The music business is ugly. That is certain.
> You will be chewed up, spit out, stolen from, and cast aside regularly,
> no matter what level of success you achieve-
> And there are many people right behind you, ready to volunteer for that privilege.
> It has always been that way.



How was any of that a "music business" matter?


----------



## Alatar

KEnK said:


> I just listened to Cyril's Piano Concerto, all 3 movements.
> 
> Frankly, I can't see why anyone w/ that level of compositional ability
> would give a rat's ass about what anyone thinks, famous or not.
> Especially at a forum of so-called peers.
> 
> I've been at this for a very long time.
> The music business is ugly. That is certain.
> You will be chewed up, spit out, stolen from, and cast aside regularly,
> no matter what level of success you achieve-
> And there are many people right behind you, ready to volunteer for that privilege.
> It has always been that way.
> 
> I say that not from a place of bitterness or cynicism,
> but from an acceptance of hard cold reality.
> 
> Grow a pair? You'll need more than that.
> You do this because you must,
> not because it is "nice" or "fair".
> 
> and that's me helping my fellow musicians for today.
> sorry
> 
> k



The question is: what do we want to be?
Do we want to be a forum, where musicians *help* musicians? Or do we want to be a forum where musicians *bash* musicians?

At the moment it seems we are the latter, sadly enough.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

rocking.xmas.man said:


> yes for sure he did. You've probably not read much from him before. he is not the kind of guy that speaks in sarcasm very often (at least on the internet). I think he is expressing what he thinks quite honestly.


Well, that's a shame, then, because there's no need to be rude. Reminds me of the time I posted a song that I prefaced by saying was just a fun song, and someone responded with a hangman gif. It upset me at first, but now my friend (who was the "vocalist") and I laugh about it.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Alatar said:


> The question is: what do we want to be?
> Do we want to be a forum, where musicians *help* musicians? Or do we want to be a forum where musicians *bash* musicians?
> 
> At the moment it seems we are the latter, sadly enough.



It is not helpful to tell someone their work is good when it isn't. 

It is not helpful to sit by and watch a train wreck and not say anything about it.

For my part, I am thankful when experienced people step in and set things straight.

Some of you are too damn sensitive.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

marclawsonmusic said:


> It is not helpful to tell someone their work is good when it isn't.
> 
> It is not helpful to sit by and watch a train wreck and not say anything about it.
> 
> For my part, I am thankful when experienced people step in and set things straight.
> 
> Some of you are too damn sensitive.


There are ways to be critical of a piece and it be helpful rather than rude. That is a skill that people can learn. But some people aren't interested in putting forth the little effort it would require.


----------



## tiago

I read the original thread and, if I remember correctly, the thing that left Hans a bit angry was that Orcel, after being previously criticized, replied by asking which sample library to use to improve the original work. That's when things started to get a bit tough, because I think that Hans was a bit shocked by the fact that Orcel though that the problem was with the software that he used and not his own... He also (yet again, if I remember correctly) gave him some cool advices like: learn how to program well, take a lot of time with the details, don't blame the samples... I also understand Orcel's situation because he's a professional composer and he was using his real name here, so it was a bit hard for him to be associated with what happened with that thread (I heard his piano concert and it's clear to me that his compositional skills are very high). But one of the great things that I think that this forum has is the fact that really high-profile composers give feedback to less experienced composers. If this kind of stuff keeps happening, it will only result in Hans never posting here again and that would be really, really sad. The man is always busy (at least, I suppose he is...) and he takes the time to come in here and give some advices to the people that post in this forum, expecting nothing in return... yet some people are saying that he was "slamming" another composer just because he gave an honest opinion? I don't think that's very cool... Please note that I totally respect Orcel's option to leave the forum, it was his choice and he had the right to do so.


----------



## emid

If I remember correctly, it was not Hans but the very first disgusting post that ignited everything. Hans was not into bashing and mocking Orcel and I think Orcel knows that.


----------



## Lassi Tani

I appreciate it a lot, what Hans said. Yes he said some harsh words, but very helpful words. Difference between him and others is that Hans commented on the piece, but some others took it to personal level.

Of course all people here, Orcel too, wants honest feedback. But honest feedback shouldn't include insulting with names, fungus, amoeba, etc.


----------



## germancomponist

If this piece of music wasn't so bad programmed by the thread opener, then there never would have been such a discussion. This is fact! And so far as I remember all critic was meant exactly to this bad programming. What do you await when you post something like this in a forum like VI-Control?


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

germancomponist said:


> If this piece of music wasn't so bad programmed by the thread opener, then there never would have been such a discussion. This is fact! And so far as I remember all critic was meant exactly to this bad programming. What do you await when you post something like this in a forum like VI-Control?



Why you honestly say that? That is not true. It was not only meant to his bad programming. Please do me one favor and keep the facts otherwise you start to become a fool twisting things to your own liking. Some other members here including me saved the thread. Shall I go in detail back on some of the comments which were meant to hit him personally which were absolutely not related to his programming?! Come one..dude..really! I sworn myself to make a break this evening from commenting here but when I read something like that I get some serrious bloodpressure.


----------



## Lassi Tani

germancomponist said:


> If this piece of music wasn't so bad programmed by the thread opener, then there never would have been such a discussion. This is fact! And so far as I remember all critic was meant exactly to this bad programming. What do you await when you post something like this in a forum like VI-Control?



So now VI-Control is some kind of elitist forum? And it's alright to start insulting people, when they post bad programmed mockups?


----------



## Sebastianmu

I think Rctecs comments were not the problem. They were honest and somewhat 'direct', but not rude, and on the later pages actually really constructive. The name calling and demeaning comments were the problem.


----------



## germancomponist

sekkosiki said:


> So now VI-Control is some kind of elitist forum? And it's alright to start insulting people, when they post bad programmed mockups?


Who says this? Read my last posts here!
You know what, I for no longer am willing to listen to your/Alexander's e,t,c's weeping!


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

sekkosiki said:


> So now VI-Control is some kind of elitist forum? And it's alright to start insulting people, when they post bad programmed mockups?


I forgot that to mention. Thank you @sekkosiki


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

germancomponist said:


> Who says this? Read my last posts here!
> You know what, I for no longer am willing to listen to your/Alexander's e,t,c's weeping!


Dude, you wrote this:

"If this piece of music wasn't so bad programmed by the thread opener, then there never would have been such a discussion.".

So by any false intepretations. What do you honestly want to say now? That he should better post nothing to avoid other peoples bad behaviours? Is this serious??


----------



## Dean

Oh my god why dont you all just give it a break!,drop the one upmanship go have a drink,take a walk,write some music.
(Ever since Jay left and those 'long goodbye' threads this place has gone to hell in a hand basket!)


----------



## KEnK

The central issue here seems to be one of "brutal honesty" vs "polite encouragement".
Both have their place.
As a teacher, I for one have learned many ways of never saying "that's wrong",
but still remain able to correct errors and encourage my students.

What several people seem to be saying and objecting to strongly though,
is in fact a falsehood or an exaggeration of the facts.
This forum is not and has not been by nature a collection of negatively minded people
putting others down. Far from it.

There was only one person in the thread who perhaps went to far-
And that was just Repeat being Repeat.
Most long term members have grown quite used to his florid ramblings and
genuinely see him as the net positive he is.

This place would be far more bland w/o his input.
And in fact, his passionate reverence even as extreme as it can sometimes seem
is quite inspirational to many- even most.

There is no underlying trend of over the top negativity here.
Just one valued member speaking his unconventional mind.

k


----------



## creativeforge

There shold be some indication


tiago said:


> I read the original thread and, if I remember correctly, the thing that left Hans a bit angry was that Orcel, after being previously criticized, replied by asking which sample library to use to improve the original work. That's when things started to get a bit tough, because I think that Hans was a bit shocked by the fact that Orcel though that the problem was with the software that he used and not his own... He also (yet again, if I remember correctly) gave him some cool advices like: learn how to program well, take a lot of time with the details, don't blame the samples...



I felt Hans reply showed a clear intention to build up, encourage, push forward, I could picture him waving his arms and totally engaged like a teacher would with a student getting lost in an equation, or a master with a disciple. If I had been Orcel, I'd have engaged further. 

As far as the original reply to the OP, I can see how some have interpreted it as being sarcasm. Clearly the OP wasn't amused. When you see that, why not go back and clear up the misunderstanding so that the member understands you are treating him like an equal? It's not always so clear sorting out what is a personal attack from what is an elbow in the ribs (knocks the wind out of you but you can laugh about it).

Peace,

Andre


----------



## creativeforge

mc_deli said:


> @creativeforge @Frederick Russ
> My opinion guys is that you should have moderated the personal attack in repeat's first post. It's fine to assassinate the work but not the author.
> Generally I think there could be a bit more moderation on the forum - a bit more moving posts, a few more gentle reminders about "helping" etc.
> 
> The other point I have observed is that: it is the case when "he who shall not be named" posts, then there tends to be a roll of posts where members try and flame to illicit further response. There's not really anything you can do about this. It is kinda understandable. But I hope it doesn't put off "he" and other senior professionals from posting here.
> 
> But hey, I think you did the right thing in following O's wishes. Cheers to Elgar everybody!



I fully agree, mc_deli. There goes another lesson that will not be forgotten (HOPE)...


----------



## Jerome Vonhogen

I have a suggestion to make things right for everyone.

Why don't we all make a mockup of the wonderful Elgar piece, and then invite Cyril Orcel to come back to the forum to listen and comment on the posted tracks?


- Jerome Vonhögen

P.S. I'm a pen-and-paper old-school composer, so you guys have to provide the mockups. Besides, I came up with the idea, so now it's your turn. Good luck!


----------



## prodigalson

Just gonna leave this here...


----------



## creativeforge

prodigalson said:


> Just gonna leave this here...




And it is this vulnerability that I personally wanted to point to as being precious, and deserving of caring for.


----------



## Baron Greuner

prodigalson said:


> Just gonna leave this here...




Yeah that's very interesting. Have a good friend who is a proper composer compared to what I do. But if I sit next to him when he is going to play me something, he becomes completely intimidated and sort of freezes up. 
Never be intimidated! Any good player understands all of that and only a complete bore would make something out of it.

Real artists, that for example, can write piano concertos or large film scores, can be fragile and that should be understood.


----------



## Jerome Vonhogen

Baron Greuner said:


> Yeah that's very interesting. Have a good friend who is a proper composer compared to what I do. But if I sit next to him when he is going to play me something, he becomes completely intimidated and sort of freezes up.
> Never be intimidated! Any good player understands all of that and only a complete bore would make something out of it.
> 
> Real artists, that for example, can write piano concertos or large film scores, can be fragile and that should be understood.


 

It happened to some of best composer-pianists of all time, like Adolf von Henselt from Germany, who was born 4 years after the birth of Chopin and was one of Rachmaninoff's heroes.

Apart from being a celebrated composer, he was one of the most gifted pianists of the 19th century, but he had such stage fright that he had to stop performing. Fans would continue to listen to his playing secretly under his window or behind the door.

You should tell your friend he is in good company!

- Jerome Vonhögen


----------



## re-peat

Sebastianmu said:


> I think Rctecs comments were not the problem.


They never are, are they? How could they possibly?

And yet … despite the growing number of posters ‘remembering correctly’ (but in actual fact conveniently half-remembering or paraphrasing out of context, only to suit their sanctimonious indignation), the simple truth is that Mr. Zimmer agreed with nasty re-peat … let’s see … wait for it, I’m trying to remember it correctly, … ah … here it is: 100%.

But somehow this has now become, after much ‘collective remembering correctly’, that Mr. Zimmer has been “honest, somewhat direct, but actually really constructive” and acted with “a clear intention to build up and encourage” — a most creative interpretation of someone shouting “Stop!!”, if you ask me —, whereas the one whom Mr. Zimmer agreed fully with, is cast as a disgusting elitist, Rudeness Personified, and the sole vile destroyer of poor old Cyril.

The opportunistic and self-serving twisting-and-turning that V.I.’s spineless undergrowth is capable of, has long stopped to throw me, but I have to say, this blatantly transparent and sheepish manoeuvre to certainly not alienate Mr. Zimmer, whatever amount of cowardness, dishonesty and hypocrisy it takes, makes for a worryingly sorry sight.

And let’s talk about rudeness for a second, shall we? Has it ever occurred to anyone that I might find careless, ignorant and lazy musical activity, extremely rude? Because I do. Mock-ups as bad as all the ones posted hurt me almost physically and I find them deeply insulting, not just personally, but to every one who’s ever seriously and passionately dedicated him- or herself to music. And it’s not so much those bleeding mock-ups themselves that I have a problem with, it’s the attitude behind them — the not caring, the lazyness, the not bothering with being informed, the not striving to be good at something, the complacent and indifferent acceptance of whatever comes out of one’s speakers after quickly programming a few notes and loading up a few processors — which offends and upsets me so much. Honestly. It’s seeing a musician being prepared to settle for easy-won inferiority and even come out with it in public (adding arrogance to lack of pride) which I, as a fellow musician, find unacceptably rude. Of a rudeness and disrespectfulness in fact, which I could never match or have ever matched, not even in my most misbehaved moments.

All this to say that the blush of shame and remorse doesn’t mantle my cheek, and that I firmly stand by every single syllable I wrote. Someone *had* to write it, I feel. Is what any serious and self-respecting musician would agree with 100%.

_


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

re-peat said:


> The opportunistic and self-serving twisting-and-turning that V.I.’s spineless undergrowth is capable of, has long stopped to throw me, but I have to say, this blatantly transparent and sheepish manoeuvre to certainly not alienate Mr. Zimmer, whatever amount of cowardness, dishonesty and hypocrisy it takes, makes for a worryingly sorry sight.



Granted, on that we can agree.



> And let’s talk about rudeness for a second, shall we? Has it ever occurred to anyone that I might find careless, ignorant and lazy musical activity, extremely rude? Because I do.



A religious fundamentalist will find a mini skirt offensive. A militant vegan will find the thought of you sinking your tusks into a throbbing piece of medium rare highly offensive. The thing is that these types of people, not unlike yourself, should learn to get over themselves, and would make the world a better place as a result. It's great to have weird personal quirks and be an eccentric peacock. I get it. Don't be an ass to people though. That's a universal thing, not a question of perspective.


----------



## prodigalson

re-peat said:


> And let’s talk about rudeness for a second, shall we? Has it ever occurred to anyone that I might find careless, ignorant and lazy musical activity, extremely rude? Because I do. Mock-ups as bad as all the ones posted hurt me almost physically and I find them deeply insulting, not just personally, but to every one who’s ever seriously and passionately dedicated him- or herself to music. And it’s not so much those bleeding mock-ups themselves that I have a problem with, it’s the attitude behind them — the not caring, the lazyness, the not bothering with being informed, the not striving to be good at something, the complacent and indifferent acceptance of whatever comes out of one’s speakers after quickly programming a few notes and loading up a few processors — which offends and upsets me so much. Honestly. It’s seeing a musician being prepared to settle for easy-won inferiority and even come out with it in public (adding arrogance to lack of pride) which I, as a fellow musician, find unacceptably rude. Of a rudeness and disrespectfulness in fact, which I could never match or have ever matched, not even in my most misbehaved moments.



Hahaha. wow, Seriously?? bad mock-ups almost hurt you physically??? "personally insulting"??? 

Jesus...

...Excuse me, I'm just gonna go open my door and step outside and like grab a drink with a friend or something...


----------



## germancomponist

Side note: If Re-Peat would call me an asshole, I would have a smile in my face and would say:"Hey peat, you are an asshole too!" One minute later we would have a good red wine together.
Each person has his own character, and Peat's just the way he is. If you know him, then you also know that his comments always refer to the matter, even if he sometimes puts it differently. In any case, I'm not made of sugar and Peat has given to me very good suggestions whenever I asked him.
And Hans is always so helpfull too! I remember last year, or two years ago, when I sent him a piece I was working on, but felt I had listened to this melody maybe elswhere, I was unsure... . Ten minutes later he sent me a link to YouTube where I could listen to "my composition", a link to a very old song. 
He also sent me a smiley. Yeah, this is Hans, so very friendly all the time! Did I get it wrong? Oh no!
But o.k. I have to add that our German humor is different to the American language... .


----------



## Baron Greuner

Heheeheh. Thank you Dr Jimmy Freud.


----------



## dimtsak

sekkosiki said:


> Is it okay, if I start calling in the Member's Compositions someone anamoeba and who posted a mockup: Take your dirty paws off music? And that he's some kind of fungus who's spreading unprofessionality here in the forums?



Are there not rules here about this ?
It 's not good to see such a composer leaving the forum because of this behaviour.
If this is the reason he left.

Some people here (including me), couldn't even write the viola part of his concerto.


----------



## Jerome Vonhogen

re-peat said:


> the simple truth is that Mr. Zimmer agreed with nasty re-peat … let’s see … wait for it, I’m trying to remember it correctly, … ah … here it is: 100%.
> 
> But somehow this has now become, after much ‘collective remembering correctly’, that Mr. Zimmer has been “honest, somewhat direct, but actually really contructive” and acted with “a clear intention to build up and encourage” — a most creative interpretation of someone shouting “Stop!!”, if you ask me —, whereas the one whom Mr. Zimmer agreed fully with, is cast as a disgusting elitist, Rudeness Personified, and the sole vile destroyer of poor old Cyril.
> 
> The opportunistic and self-serving twisting-and-turning that V.I.’s spineless undergrowth is capable of, has long stopped to throw me, but I have to say, this blatantly transparent and sheepish manoeuvre to certainly not alienate Mr. Zimmer, whatever amount of cowardness, dishonesty and hypocrisy it takes, makes for a worryingly sorry sight.


 

Sorry, but there is only one Spongebob. You can still be Squidward, though...


----------



## rottoy

re-peat said:


> They never are, are they? How could they possibly?
> 
> And yet … despite the growing number of posters ‘remembering correctly’ (but in actual fact conveniently half-remembering or paraphrasing out of context, only to suit their sanctimonious indignation), the simple truth is that Mr. Zimmer agreed with nasty re-peat … let’s see … wait for it, I’m trying to remember it correctly, … ah … here it is: 100%.
> 
> But somehow this has now become, after much ‘collective remembering correctly’, that Mr. Zimmer has been “honest, somewhat direct, but actually really constructive” and acted with “a clear intention to build up and encourage” — a most creative interpretation of someone shouting “Stop!!”, if you ask me —, whereas the one whom Mr. Zimmer agreed fully with, is cast as a disgusting elitist, Rudeness Personified, and the sole vile destroyer of poor old Cyril.
> 
> The opportunistic and self-serving twisting-and-turning that V.I.’s spineless undergrowth is capable of, has long stopped to throw me, but I have to say, this blatantly transparent and sheepish manoeuvre to certainly not alienate Mr. Zimmer, whatever amount of cowardness, dishonesty and hypocrisy it takes, makes for a worryingly sorry sight.
> 
> And let’s talk about rudeness for a second, shall we? Has it ever occurred to anyone that I might find careless, ignorant and lazy musical activity, extremely rude? Because I do. Mock-ups as bad as all the ones posted hurt me almost physically and I find them deeply insulting, not just personally, but to every one who’s ever seriously and passionately dedicated him- or herself to music. And it’s not so much those bleeding mock-ups themselves that I have a problem with, it’s the attitude behind them — the not caring, the lazyness, the not bothering with being informed, the not striving to be good at something, the complacent and indifferent acceptance of whatever comes out of one’s speakers after quickly programming a few notes and loading up a few processors — which offends and upsets me so much. Honestly. It’s seeing a musician being prepared to settle for easy-won inferiority and even come out with it in public (adding arrogance to lack of pride) which I, as a fellow musician, find unacceptably rude. Of a rudeness and disrespectfulness in fact, which I could never match or have ever matched, not even in my most misbehaved moments.
> 
> All this to say that the blush of shame and remorse doesn’t mantle my cheek, and that I firmly stand by every single syllable I wrote. Someone *had* to write it, I feel. Is what any serious and self-respecting musician would agree with 100%.
> 
> _


The implied authority of all things considered good taste and hard work contained in this diatribe is flabbergasting. V.I Control is doing itself a disservice catering to personalities that mistake blunt honesty for wisdom and disregard for social conventions as an adorable quirk.


----------



## prodigalson

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> Sorry, but there is only one Spongebob. You can still be Squidward, though...


----------



## Baron Greuner

What we have here is you guys expecting individuals to conform to some sort mob rule. Trust me gents, that ain't happening. So the only conclusion that can be drawn is that you are venting.
Venting is great fun especially on a collective basis, but ultimately it won't go anywhere.
The very idea that somehow apportionment of blame based on someone leaving an internet forum smacks of some kind of mild hysteria.
This is in no way some sort of way of defending anyone, but an observation from a safe distance.

Whoa! That's the title of my next track.


----------



## Lassi Tani

As this is a thread at Member's Compositions, here's my remake of my mockup. Hopefully no one gets physically sick or insulted while listening to this. If you think I'm rude posting this, my apologies .


----------



## mpalenik

re-peat said:


> And let’s talk about rudeness for a second, shall we? Has it ever occurred to anyone that I might find careless, ignorant and lazy musical activity, extremely rude? Because I do. Mock-ups as bad as all the ones posted hurt me almost physically and I find them deeply insulting, not just personally, but to every one who’s ever seriously and passionately dedicated him- or herself to music. And it’s not so much those bleeding mock-ups themselves that I have a problem with, it’s the attitude behind them — the not caring, the lazyness, the not bothering with being informed, the not striving to be good at something, the complacent and indifferent acceptance of whatever comes out of one’s speakers after quickly programming a few notes and loading up a few processors — which offends and upsets me so much. Honestly. It’s seeing a musician being prepared to settle for easy-won inferiority and even come out with it in public (adding arrogance to lack of pride) which I, as a fellow musician, find unacceptably rude. Of a rudeness and disrespectfulness in fact, which I could never match or have ever matched, not even in my most misbehaved moments.
> 
> All this to say that the blush of shame and remorse doesn’t mantle my cheek, and that I firmly stand by every single syllable I wrote. Someone *had* to write it, I feel. Is what any serious and self-respecting musician would agree with 100%.
> 
> _



Oh, please. For almost seven years, as a graduate student, I had to teach physics to undergraduates. Some of them plainly didn't want to be taking it, some of them weren't interested but made a serious effort, and some of them really wanted to learn. The fact is, though, even the Freshman who were the most interested came in (and often left) with some laughable misconceptions and made mistakes that would often make me think "are you even trying?"

Now, it wasn't my job to make anyone want to be there, and it wasn't my job to pass a student who didn't put in the effort. But the fact is, for someone who knows nothing about a field where you're an expert, not only is it difficult to understand how and why a particular (seemingly obvious to you) approach should be taken, but your role as an expert can be somewhat intimidating. What to you might seem to be an inoffensive remark might actually cut someone deeper than you think.

So, you can blow up at someone, and take personal offense, because you think his attempt at solving a problem was careless at best, or you can try to understand why someone who doesn't know as much as you might approach a problem that way. You can understand that things that seem simple and obvious to you might be totally unknown to someone else. And it's not about "coddling" students, it's about asking yourself why you're responding the way you are.

Is it:
A) Because you think this is genuinely the best way to help people learn something and the clearest way to get your point across
or
B) Because you've become emotional and it will make you feel better if you take out your rage on someone else.

If you truly believe you're doing A), re-peat, I have to tell you, you're wrong. You may not believe me, but you're wrong. And this is coming from someone who has dealt with hundreds--probably even thousands--of students, from all different backgrounds.

There may be a few people who respond well to that kind of treatment, but most don't, and it drives away normal, sane people from the field and selects for people with mal-adjusted personalities. This is what has happened in academia. Since the 70s, sociopathy has become increasingly common among academics. Mental health issues are much higher among faculty than the general population. I have first hand seen and experienced the kind of disrespect and quite frankly--insanity that physics professors display when interacting with graduate students and other faculty. Is this really the kind of environment you want to foster? Do you really think it's beneficial to try to select for those types of people?


----------



## rottoy

mpalenik said:


> Oh, please. For almost seven years, as a graduate student, I had to teach physics to undergraduates. Some of them plainly didn't want to be taking it, some of them weren't interested but made a serious effort, and some of them really wanted to learn. The fact is, though, even the Freshman who were the most interested came in (and often left) with some laughable misconceptions and made mistakes that would often make me think "are you even trying?"
> 
> Now, it wasn't my job to make anyone want to be there, and it wasn't my job to pass a student who didn't put in the effort. But the fact is, for someone who knows nothing about a field where you're an expert, not only is it difficult to understand how and why a particular (seemingly obvious to you) approach should be taken, but your role as an expert can be somewhat intimidating. What to you might seem to be an inoffensive remark might actually cut someone deeper than you think.
> 
> So, you can blow up at someone, and take personal offense, because you think his attempt at solving a problem was careless at best, or you can try to understand why someone who doesn't know as much as you might approach a problem that way. You can understand that things that seem simple and obvious to you might be totally unknown to someone else. And it's not about "coddling" students, it's about asking yourself why you're responding the way you are.
> 
> Is it:
> A) Because you think this is genuinely the best way to help people learn something and the clearest way to get your point across
> or
> B) Because you've become emotional and it will make you feel better if you take out your rage on someone else.
> 
> If you truly believe you're doing A), re-peat, I have to tell you, you're wrong. You may not believe me, but you're wrong. And this is coming from someone who has dealt with hundreds--probably even thousands--of students, from all different backgrounds.
> 
> There may be a few people who respond well to that kind of treatment, but most don't, and it drives away normal, sane people from the field and selects for people with mal-adjusted personalities. This is what has happened in academia. Since the 70s, sociopathy has become increasingly common among academics. Mental health issues are much higher among faculty than the general population. I have first hand seen and experienced the kind of disrespect and quite frankly--insanity that physics professors display when interacting with graduate students and other faculty. Is this really the kind of environment you want to foster? Do you really think it's beneficial to try to select for those types of people?


This. +1000


----------



## KEnK

To those of you bemoaning Repeat's cantankerousness,
I suggest you do a search
and spend a few weeks reading his nearly 2000 posts.

You will learn a ton- that is certain.

Yeah, Peat can be a prick sometimes.
So what. 
Once again I say, "Grow a pair".

Repeat's brutal honesty is a breath of fresh air to many here.
Personally, I'd much rather see that than all the ass-kissing that can go on.

Get over it. 

k


----------



## rottoy

KEnK said:


> To those of you bemoaning Repeat's cantankerousness,
> I suggest you do a search
> and spend a few weeks reading his nearly 2000 posts.
> 
> You will learn a ton- that is certain.
> 
> Yeah, Peat can be a prick sometimes.
> So what.
> Once again I say, "Grow a pair".
> 
> Repeat's brutal honesty is a breath of fresh air to many here.
> Personally, I'd much rather see that than all the ass-kissing that can go on.
> 
> Get over it.
> 
> k


Why don't you stop contributing to the problem and grow a pair yourself?
Cojones doesn't constitute a disregard for other people's feelings.


----------



## KEnK

rottoy said:


> Why don't you stop contributing to the problem and grow a pair yourself?
> Cojones doesn't constitute a disregard for other people's feelings.


I am not contributing to "the problem",
I am trying to diffuse it, though that appears to be a genuinely Quixotic Task.
Truth is, if you post something on a public forum,
you get what you get.

Peat's being unnecessarily maligned here.
Though he certainly doesn't need anyone to come to his defense-
I feel a need to point out the absurdity of the cries to "Burn the Witch"

k


----------



## rottoy

KEnK said:


> I am not contributing to "the problem",
> I am trying to diffuse it, though that appears to be a genuinely Quixotic Task.
> Truth is, if you post something on a public forum,
> you get what you get.
> 
> Peat's being unnecessarily maligned here.
> Though he certainly doesn't need anyone to come to his defense-
> I feel a need to point out the absurdity of the cries to "Burn the Witch"
> 
> k


The utter refusal to recognize fatal flaws in re-peat's approach and conduct IS a problem.
Enabling such an approach on the basis of occasional helpful advice is not worth alienating users from ever frequenting this forum ever again.

It's quite simple, really.


----------



## bbunker

mpalenik said:


> Oh, please. For almost seven years, as a graduate student, I had to teach physics to undergraduates. Some of them plainly didn't want to be taking it, some of them weren't interested but made a serious effort, and some of them really wanted to learn. The fact is, though, even the Freshman who were the most interested came in (and often left) with some laughable misconceptions and made mistakes that would often make me think "are you even trying?"
> 
> Now, it wasn't my job to make anyone want to be there, and it wasn't my job to pass a student who didn't put in the effort. But the fact is, for someone who knows nothing about a field where you're an expert, not only is it difficult to understand how and why a particular (seemingly obvious to you) approach should be taken, but your role as an expert can be somewhat intimidating. What to you might seem to be an inoffensive remark might actually cut someone deeper than you think.
> 
> So, you can blow up at someone, and take personal offense, because you think his attempt at solving a problem was careless at best, or you can try to understand why someone who doesn't know as much as you might approach a problem that way. You can understand that things that seem simple and obvious to you might be totally unknown to someone else. And it's not about "coddling" students, it's about asking yourself why you're responding the way you are.
> 
> Is it:
> A) Because you think this is genuinely the best way to help people learn something and the clearest way to get your point across
> or
> B) Because you've become emotional and it will make you feel better if you take out your rage on someone else.
> 
> If you truly believe you're doing A), re-peat, I have to tell you, you're wrong. You may not believe me, but you're wrong. And this is coming from someone who has dealt with hundreds--probably even thousands--of students, from all different backgrounds.
> 
> There may be a few people who respond well to that kind of treatment, but most don't, and it drives away normal, sane people from the field and selects for people with mal-adjusted personalities. This is what has happened in academia. Since the 70s, sociopathy has become increasingly common among academics. Mental health issues are much higher among faculty than the general population. I have first hand seen and experienced the kind of disrespect and quite frankly--insanity that physics professors display when interacting with graduate students and other faculty. Is this really the kind of environment you want to foster? Do you really think it's beneficial to try to select for those types of people?



To play devil's advocate for a moment, while I was a graduate student, I was thrown out of a piano lesson for playing an F for the third time where it should have been an Eb. (Gradus ad Parnassum from Debussy's Children's Corner, if you want to laugh at me. The bit right before the section in Ab.) I'd just memorized it incorrectly, and in the ecstasy of the moment (it's chock full of ecstasy...go listen to it right this second if you don't know it!) I wouldn't read the page and made the same silly mistake. The third time, she closed the book and asked me to leave, because my concern for my own enjoyment of the work, and for getting 'into' the music had eclipsed my desire to treat the music with the attention to detail that it deserved. You can be damned sure that I played it perfectly the next time, and that lesson has had a lasting impact.

I also was told by our Early Music Director after one performance that I'd thought had gone rather well that my lute playing that night had been, and I quote: "quite atrocious." I sat aghast as he briefly ran through how I'd put trills in the place of mordents, and generally played whatever ornament I'd felt like instead of what the composer had asked for, just because I had felt like they worked. Basically he asked something along the lines of "If this master lutenist gives you all these directions on exactly and specifically what ornaments to play where, who do you think you are to throw that away?" You can bet that I had my upward turns and mordents in their proper places after that.

I guess what I'm saying is that 99% of the quantity of the lessons I've learned have been taught in a kind and gentle way without any feelings getting hurt. But some of the most important lessons have been dealt with an iron fist, and I remember those two moments of harsh criticism that really helped me, and forgotten the details of a lifetime of other lessons.

I don't mean to condone boorishness. I am not terribly taken aback my re-peat's sometime cantankerousness, because I know that at heart he's a fundamentalist about music - I believe that he sees the world of music in terms of some absolute truths, so that violations of his 'code' probably DO feel like a personal injury. In some ways I'm jealous, because I could never have been quite so blunt in my response to the first example - I found it to be quite poor indeed, and didn't write anything because I couldn't think of a nice way to say it.

I really don't know what I think about the situation - I hope that Mr. Orcel will see somehow that the suffering that he's felt is strictly limited to one piece of music which was not even his own, and that the community finds him to be a knowledgeable and skilled composer. I hope that re-peat continues speaking the truths that he feels so keenly. I also hope that he finds a way to present those truths a bit more kindly.

It is, as politicians would say, a nuanced situation.


----------



## germancomponist

rottoy said:


> The utter refusal to recognize fatal flaws in re-peat's approach and conduct IS a problem.
> Enabling such an approach on the basis of occasional helpful advice is not worth alienating users from ever frequenting this forum ever again.
> 
> It's quite simple, really.


Can you explain what you suggest clearly?


----------



## Carles

I did read some posts from that thread.
I think part of the gravity of this issue causing Cyril to leave it’s been of course Piet’s manners but also the possibly (IMO) very misunderstood comment from Hans, given his relevance in the industry.
Hans said something like “I cannot agree more with Piet” talking about the actual subject from Piet’s comment, not saying that he agreed his harsh manners but the subject, exactly the same as I do agree with Piet (subject) too. I agree with both about that something was missing in there as I was unable to hear not only any given character, but either any expression or dynamics.
That’s exactly what Hans effusively tried to communicate. Cyril can have really good writing skills (I think he has) but he has been not able to demonstrate that on the mockup thus Hans comment and –advices-, in any cases Hans is talking about “mockup-ing” skills and not bashing Cyril musicality or reputation, but just a well-meant advice.

Just to be clear, I do appreciate Piet, possibly much more than he could ever suspect, I just disagree the way he expresses himself sometimes, but hey, otherwise he wouldn't be Piet.

Saying “learn to program” is not a destructive comment here, is in this case just a need because if you don’t know how to communicate with your machine which is the only interface between your mind and the listener ears, then even if you have any expression to tell, you won’t be able to take that out.

I think Cyril should definitely back to the forum and share as well as learn as that's the magic of this place.

Both, Piet and Hans tried to clarify that is not about the libraries used but about expression, is about dynamics and agogics, is first of all about character and feeling, you need to do more than compiling sounds, you need to tell something, otherwise is like listening poetry told by a text-to-speech software, so they wanted to remark that expression comes first, and sound quality after, while the exercise was driving the readers to otherwise.
The exercise, from that point of view makes non sense as no any library can do that job for us and we’ll keep listening the same flat and lifeless example with different timbres yes, but always wrong and mechanical.
No library can do the job, –none- because each piece is unique and expression has to be tailored to it. Is not the library’s job but ours and only ours! and that comes first.

I think it’s also unfair to read that Hans had any elitist attitude here, not at all, he’s not here as Hans Zimmer Composer, he’s Rctec, one more user who enjoys talking about knobs and music, he shared opinion, tips and concerns too, even personal pictures here, although many people is always flashed by his success, Hans is just one of us here and he feels as such. I think Hans said what he had to say, no more and no less.

Look, about a couple months ago I had some correspondence with Hans as he was trying to help me out with something.
Parallel to that, some of you know that I’m trying to get into good Production Music libraries with no success, and at some point I felt hopeless, discouraged, exhaust, depressed and literally ill because of a lack of rest, and since the huge effort I’m doing seemed useless but also harming my health, I did firmly decide to uninstall everything and get out of MusicLand permanently (too addictive for me, otherwise I cannot stop working up to 3:30 AM every night). I told about my decision to three guys only, Hans one of them.
I told Hans about that never mind, I’ve much appreciated his help but I was quitting my musical activity anyway so no need to make him waste any of his little spare time on me anymore.
I couldn’t suspect that my message could hurt him, but it did, and he replied very strongly to it, almost like something personal, and I understood later why.
He really loves music, very deeply, and he saw a fellow musician leaving his so beloved MusicLand and falling into a dark pit, and urgently needed to take me out (writing to me in the middle of a recording session leaving his duties aside) and indeed he made me to react with his honest words and took me out the pit. He was -as energetic as necessary- and he successfully did save me out. (I’m currently giving one more push to my attempt). This guy was not Hans Zimmer Composer, not an elitist guy, it was Hans, that plain German guy from V.I.C. who made me back to life.
I’ll never forget that.

Regarding the actual thread, I’m really busy, but I’m trying to create and share an example (a simplistic Tchaikovsky midifile) trying to illustrate Piet and Hans point, a basic but interesting exercise using plain source sounds rather than hyper-realistic libraries to better expose what they meant. It can be a good starting point before begin to plug this or that libraries on this or that midifile.

Hopefully soon,

Carles


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

KEnK said:


> I feel a need to point out the absurdity of the cries to "Burn the Witch"



Couldn't it be that perhaps you're the one who's dramatizing a bit now? Pistol Piet is a live shooter obviously, and I'm sure he can handle the headwind. I wouldn't call it a "witch-hunt" just because there are some expectably disagreeing responses to his confidently provocative statements.

Guess it all comes down to growing balls vs. walking a mile in a man's shoes. But let's not forget: you can walk a mile in a man's shoes, but to get inside his head, you have to become really small and crawl up his nose!


----------



## rottoy

germancomponist said:


> Can you explain what you suggest clearly?


Personally I feel re-peat's brusque approach doesn't really constitute constructive feedback because of the very nature of it's delivery. You and a bunch of other people clearly don't see it that way and dismiss it as shenaningans with an ultimately redemptive character. 
To a point I agree with you, re-peat has made some great points in threads I've read in the past.

But I do think you need to take a step back at what went wrong when a member not only leaves the forum, but requests the deletion of their account and all of their posts.

In the wake of Cyril's departure, the dismissal of re-peat's behaviour with a mere "re-peat will always be re-peat" is really hard to argue for with a straight face.

*In My Opinion*


----------



## KEnK

rottoy said:


> The utter refusal to recognize fatal flaws in re-peat's approach and conduct IS a problem.


Fatal flaws? Are you kidding me?
People are being blown to bits all over the world right now,
and you use the word "fatal" to describe an internet snit?
Some perspective please


----------



## mpalenik

bbunker said:


> To play devil's advocate for a moment, while I was a graduate student, I was thrown out of a piano lesson for playing an F for the third time where it should have been an Eb. (Gradus ad Parnassum from Debussy's Children's Corner, if you want to laugh at me. The bit right before the section in Ab.) I'd just memorized it incorrectly, and in the ecstasy of the moment (it's chock full of ecstasy...go listen to it right this second if you don't know it!) I wouldn't read the page and made the same silly mistake. The third time, she closed the book and asked me to leave, because my concern for my own enjoyment of the work, and for getting 'into' the music had eclipsed my desire to treat the music with the attention to detail that it deserved. You can be damned sure that I played it perfectly the next time, and that lesson has had a lasting impact.


My old piano teacher thinks he did this to me as well, but he didn't--I remember the actual student it happened to. It was with a Beethoven Sonata, and he said something like "go home and come back when you have some respect for beethoven" 



> I also was told by our Early Music Director after one performance that I'd thought had gone rather well that my lute playing that night had been, and I quote: "quite atrocious."


Was that on the first night you played the lute, after becoming an accomplished pianist? If not, it's not exactly the same situation. It's actually more like coming to your first lute lesson and being told your playing was atrocious.



> I guess what I'm saying is that 99% of the quantity of the lessons I've learned have been taught in a kind and gentle way without any feelings getting hurt. But some of the most important lessons have been dealt with an iron fist, and I remember those two moments of harsh criticism that really helped me, and forgotten the details of a lifetime of other lessons.


I think you're missing a really important subtlety here, which is really not so subtle when you think about it. When someone asks a question because he's trying to learn about a new subject, that is not the correct time to smash him with an iron fist. And to defend antisocial, arrogant, and offensive behavior because sometimes a firm hand is needed is. . . well. . . misguided, at best.

I mean it's the difference between how I would respond when a student came to me and told me that I'm wrong and CHIP (the online homework system we used at my university) is wrong because he got a different answer, and when a student comes to me and says "I'm trying to figure out how to solve a problem. Here's how I started," even if he has a totally misguided approach (and even in the former case, I wouldn't use the kind of language that re-peat did, because it's still not helpful).


----------



## rottoy

KEnK said:


> Fatal flaws? Are you kidding me?
> People are being blown to bits all over the world right now,
> and you use the word "fatal" to describe an internet snit?
> Some perspective please


In the context of the forum and general social behaviour, I find it fatal.

And once again, you're being dismissive comparing the interactions on here to that of people being blown up because of the malicious misguided actions of other people. Grow up.

If we're going down that road, ultimately none of this matters and we're just on an endless nihilistic road towards the end of the universe. (In case you miss it, this is a joke.)


----------



## KEnK

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Couldn't it be that perhaps you're the one who's dramatizing a bit now? Pistol Piet is a live shooter obviously, and I'm sure he can handle the headwind. I wouldn't call it a "witch-hunt" just because there are some expectably disagreeing responses to his confidently provocative statements.


Actually I don't think so-
I watched Jay and Piet argue and insult each other for yards of type at a time.
But Piet's open hostility towards him is not what caused Jay to leave-
It was an EW related "Witch Hunt" that hounded him off the forum.
And that's what I see happening here-
Mob mentality.

I enjoy and treasure the kind of impassioned discourse that can happen
when people hold Art in such high regard that nothing else matters.
That's who Piet is.
A valuable resource

k


----------



## germancomponist

Carles said:


> I did read some posts from that thread.
> I think part of the gravity of this issue causing Cyril to leave it’s been of course Piet’s manners but also the possibly (IMO) very misunderstood comment from Hans, given his relevance in the industry.
> Hans said something like “I cannot agree more with Piet” talking about the actual subject from Piet’s comment, not saying that he agreed his harsh manners but the subject, exactly the same as I do agree with Piet (subject) too. I agree with both about that something was missing in there as I was unable to hear not only any given character, but either any expression or dynamics.
> That’s exactly what Hans effusively tried to communicate. Cyril can have really good writing skills (I think he has) but he has been not able to demonstrate that on the mockup thus Hans comment and –advices-, in any cases Hans is talking about “mockup-ing” skills and not bashing Cyril musicality or reputation, but just a well-meant advice.
> 
> Just to be clear, I do appreciate Piet, possibly much more than he could ever suspect, I just disagree the way he expresses himself sometimes, but hey, otherwise he wouldn't be Piet.
> 
> Saying “learn to program” is not a destructive comment here, is in this case just a need because if you don’t know how to communicate with your machine which is the only interface between your mind and the listener ears, then even if you have any expression to tell, you won’t be able to take that out.
> 
> I think Cyril should definitely back to the forum and share as well as learn as that's the magic of this place.
> 
> Both, Piet and Hans tried to clarify that is not about the libraries used but about expression, is about dynamics and agogics, is first of all about character and feeling, you need to do more than compiling sounds, you need to tell something, otherwise is like listening poetry told by a text-to-speech software, so they wanted to remark that expression comes first, and sound quality after, while the exercise was driving the readers to otherwise.
> The exercise, from that point of view makes non sense as no any library can do that job for us and we’ll keep listening the same flat and lifeless example with different timbres yes, but always wrong and mechanical.
> No library can do the job, –none- because each piece is unique and expression has to be tailored to it. Is not the library’s job but ours and only ours! and that comes first.
> 
> I think it’s also unfair to read that Hans had any elitist attitude here, not at all, he’s not here as Hans Zimmer Composer, he’s Rctec, one more user who enjoys talking about knobs and music, he shared opinion, tips and concerns too, even personal pictures here, although many people is always flashed by his success, Hans is just one of us here and he feels as such. I think Hans said what he had to say, no more and no less.
> 
> Look, about a couple months ago I had some correspondence with Hans as he was trying to help me out with something.
> Parallel to that, some of you know that I’m trying to get into good Production Music libraries with no success, and at some point I felt hopeless, discouraged, exhaust, depressed and literally ill because of a lack of rest, and since the huge effort I’m doing seemed useless but also harming my health, I did firmly decide to uninstall everything and get out of MusicLand permanently (too addictive for me, otherwise I cannot stop working up to 3:30 AM every night). I told about my decision to three guys only, Hans one of them.
> I told Hans about that never mind, I’ve much appreciated his help but I was quitting my musical activity anyway so no need to make him waste any of his little spare time on me anymore.
> I couldn’t suspect that my message could hurt him, but it did, and he replied very strongly to it, almost like something personal, and I understood later why.
> He really loves music, very deeply, and he saw a fellow musician leaving his so beloved MusicLand and falling into a dark pit, and urgently needed to take me out (writing to me in the middle of a recording session leaving his duties aside) and indeed he made me to react with his honest words and took me out the pit. He was -as energetic as necessary- and he successfully did save me out. (I’m currently giving one more push to my attempt). This guy was not Hans Zimmer Composer, not an elitist guy, it was Hans, that plain German guy from V.I.C. who made me back to life.
> I’ll never forget that.
> 
> Regarding the actual thread, I’m really busy, but I’m trying to create and share an example (a simplistic Tchaikovsky midifile) trying to illustrate Piet and Hans point, a basic but interesting exercise using plain source sounds rather than hyper-realistic libraries to better expose what they meant. It can be a good starting point before begin to plug this or that libraries on this or that midifile.
> 
> Hopefully soon,
> 
> Carles


Your words have moved me, Carles. Thank you!


----------



## KEnK

rottoy said:


> Grow up


I'm 58.
A little to late to "grow up".
But what is fatal is the intolerant mob mentality that you and others
are perpetrating here.
Yes- Piet insulted Orcel. 
And he takes his football and goes crying home.
Who needs to grow up? 

k


----------



## rottoy

KEnK said:


> I'm 58.
> A little to late to "grow up".
> But what is fatal is the intolerant mob mentality that you and others
> are perpetrating here.
> Yes- Piet insulted Orcel.
> And he takes his football and goes crying home.
> Who needs to grow up?
> 
> k


You obviously don't care since that's the only part of my text that you quoted.
I'm not discussing this any further with you as it's a waste of your and my time.

Happy Interneting!


----------



## mpalenik

KEnK said:


> Yes- Piet insulted Orcel.
> And he takes his football and goes crying home.
> Who needs to grow up?
> 
> k


Or perhaps, he had the fairly mature thought process, "I'm an accomplished, successful musician. I'm not being treated with respect or learning anything useful. This thread has gotten a bit out of hand. There's no reason for me to be here, so I'd like to quietly leave."


----------



## bbunker

mpalenik said:


> My old piano teacher thinks he did this to me as well, but he didn't--I remember the actual student it happened to.
> 
> 
> Was that on the first night you played the lute, after becoming an accomplished pianist? If not, it's not exactly the same situation. It's actually more like coming to your first lute lesson and being told your playing was atrocious.
> 
> 
> I think you're missing a really important subtlety here, which is really not so subtle when you think about it. When someone asks a question because he's trying to learn about a new subject, that is not the correct time to smash him with an iron fist. And to defend antisocial, arrogant, and offensive behavior because sometimes a firm hand is needed is. . . well. . . misguided, at best.



Just for the record, I am definitely, definitely not an 'accomplished' pianist. This is a terrible slander to the instrument. 

Actually, and by some slight degree of irony, it was actually the first time I was performing on lute with our early music ensemble. Perhaps not the first lesson, but still at a very early time in my 'lute playing career.' And also just for the record, I am definitely, definitely not an 'accomplished' lutenist. This is also a terrible slander to a noble instrument.

I think the trouble I have is that the end result is being used to judge the earlier behavior. Knowing re-peat's posts, and from them his personality, I don't think that he was in any way trying to be antisocial or arrogant. This may be profoundly short-sighted of me, and I do entertain that notion, but I imagine that re-peat (and Herr Zimmer as well, of course) made the comments that they did out of compassion of a sort. Something along the lines of 'friends don't let friends make bad music.'

You of course speak a great deal of truth, mpalenik. I just don't know where to draw the line. How far are we willing to go in defense of 'antisocial truth?' I think I draw my line in the sand further east, perhaps. The thread troubled me, definitely, but I wasn't offended by it. This may be my own failing.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

KEnK said:


> And that's what I see happening here-
> Mob mentality.



Ah jeez. Am I supposed to shed a pitiful little tear now? "Mob mentality"? Now ain't that cruel. Can't a person take a dump on a grown man any more without being chided?

More like a clear case of "what goes around, comes around". What was that - "grow a pair"?


----------



## KEnK

mpalenik said:


> Or perhaps, he had the fairly mature thought process, "I'm an accomplished, successful musician. I'm not being treated with respect or learning anything useful. This thread has gotten a bit out of hand. There's no reason for me to be here, so I'd like to quietly leave."


mpalenik

I think we can all say quite accurately that Orcel was treated w/ a great deal of respect
(until the initial Elgar thread)
Too much fuss is being made over one or two obviously absurd insults.

This thread, like most when they get past a 4th page is becoming 
more about banter than content.
I've said my piece.
I have nothing more to add.

k


----------



## tack

I can't think of anything else that could be said better than Carles' insightful, eloquent, heartfelt and genuine post. Thanks for taking the time, Carles.


----------



## Arbee

First, tough love (every rude, blunt, direct, insulting bit of it) certainly helped accelerate my learning curve early in my career. Tough love does that, even if we hate it and refuse to admit it. It speeds things up, be thankful for that.

Second, the paradox is that if people are using internet forums to reinforce their own sense of importance, authority and intellectual superiority, then threads like this just let them know how effective their judgemental tirades really are. There have been a number of "strong personalities" on this forum over the years who love to bring their competitiveness to every potential opportunity to critique and denigrate.

Third, we all have strengths and weakness, and it is tempting to throw rocks at people's weaknesses, especially if their strengths are threatening and infuriating.

My advice is to quietly take the tough love messages to heart, get really upset about them, let them force you to search your soul for improvement. But I fear spending post after post "judging those who dare to judge" just validates these folk and serves no other purpose.

Be secure in who you are, the messages that resonate will hurt and do their job, the rest will just wash off.


----------



## mpalenik

KEnK said:


> mpalenik
> 
> I think we can all say quite accurately that Orcel was treated w/ a great deal of respect
> (until the initial Elgar thread)
> Too much fuss is being made over one or two obviously absurd insults.



That could be, I don't keep track of this forum well enough to know. But I can say that I personally have spent a lot of time away from this forum not because of anything directed toward me, specifically, but because pretty often I find the general nature of discourse here pretty unhelpful. I guess that's about all I have to say, as well.


----------



## Dean

What the hell are you all still doing here? I told you to grab a drink or take a walk,..ahh screw it! D


----------



## rottoy

Dean said:


> What the hell are you all still doing here? I told you to grab a drink or take a walk,..ahh screw it! D


One does not simply leave V.I Control.. Oh wait, never mind.


----------



## Udo

KEnK said:


> I'm 58.
> A little to late to "grow up".
> .....
> k


I disagree.
I'm 71, but only recently got through puberty - I suppose you could call me a late developer .
(off topic, but an attempt to relax the tension here somewhat ).


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Since joining vi-control, I have learned more from re-peat than pretty much anyone else on this forum. His passion for music and _craft_ is inspiring to me.

This whole thing is being blown out of proportion... it was never about shaming someone over a bad mockup. There was some hubris and carelessness in the original thread that I think re-peat (and others) reacted to. I was flabbergasted myself, but only made a couple of comments.

Kudos to re-peat and Rctec for stopping 'the blind leading the blind'. We need more of that on this forum, not less.


----------



## rottoy

marclawsonmusic said:


> Kudos to re-peat and Rctec for stopping 'the blind leading the blind'. We need more of that on this forum, not less.


Yes, we need to continue celebrating a pathological lack of tact as we follow our shepherd Peat up the ivory tower.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

rottoy said:


> Yes, we need to continue celebrating a pathological lack of tact as we follow our shepherd Peat up the ivory tower.



I am sure his mockups sound better than yours. And I have never heard yours.


----------



## rottoy

marclawsonmusic said:


> I am sure his mockups sound better than yours. And I have never heard yours.


I'm quite sure most people do better mockups than me. What's your point?


----------



## marclawsonmusic

rottoy said:


> I'm quite sure most people do better mockups than me. What's your point?



The point is I joined this forum to learn something, not have people coddle me or make me feel good. I have my mom and girlfriend for that.

Re-peat has proven he knows what he is talking about. And Rctec, of course!

So, when those guys talk, I listen... If re-peat has an Ivory Tower to climb, hell yeah... I'm climbing!


----------



## rottoy

marclawsonmusic said:


> So, when those guys talk, I listen... If re-peat has an Ivory Tower to climb, hell yeah... I'm climbing!


So as long as we're coddling the keepers of all things holy and true in music, all is well?


----------



## marclawsonmusic

rottoy said:


> So as long as we're coddling the keepers of all things holy and true in music, all is well?



If you want to get butthurt and angry, that's fine by me. I will just continue to learn and soak up the knowledge, because there's a lot I need to learn! 

I just hope all the blowhards in this thread don't run off the truly knowledgeable people on this forum... Imagine a vi-control wasteland of Orcels and AlexanderSchiborrs and rottoys telling the rest of us what works. That would really suck in my opinion.

You guys can keep your feelings and tact-ful comments. I'll take re-peat and Rctec any day.


----------



## rottoy

marclawsonmusic said:


> If you want to get butthurt and angry, that's fine by me. I will just continue to learn and soak up the knowledge, because there's a lot I need to learn!
> 
> I just hope all the blowhards in this thread don't run off the truly knowledgeable people on this forum... Imagine a vi-control wasteland of Orcels and AlexanderSchiborrs and rottoys telling the rest of us what works. That would really suck in my opinion.
> 
> You guys can keep your feelings and tack-ful comments. I'll take re-peat and Rctec any day.


Who said I was angry? I'm disappointed.
And now YOU are apparently telling people what works and doesn't as Hans & Peat get the piedestal in favour of the people not savvy enough to grasp your gilded concept of "true knowledge".

Elgar's long maligned skeleton would rattle his bones with laughter at your comments.


----------



## KEnK

rottoy

I'm guessing you're a teen.
Is that correct?


----------



## rottoy

KEnK said:


> rottoy
> 
> I'm guessing you're a teen.
> Is that correct?


If that helps you sleep at night, buddy.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

rottoy said:


> Who said I was angry? I'm disappointed.
> And now YOU are apparently telling people what works and doesn't as Hans & Peat get the piedestal in favour of the people not savvy enough to grasp your gilded concept of "true knowledge".
> 
> Elgar's long maligned skeleton would rattle his bones with laughter at your comments.



Yes, Hans and Piet get the pedestal. Any day. Any time.

EDIT: In fact, I proactively search the forum for their comments. You should do the same!


----------



## KEnK

rottoy said:


> If that helps you sleep at night, buddy.


It demonstrates why you seem to only be saying, "Nyah nyah nyah."


thanks
k


----------



## rottoy

KEnK said:


> It demonstrates why you seem to only be saying "Nyah nyah nyah."
> 
> 
> thanks
> k


Now who's projecting?


----------



## rottoy

marclawsonmusic said:


> Yes, Hans and Piet get the pedestal. Any day. Any time.
> 
> EDIT: In fact, I proactively search the forum for their comments. You should do the same!


I do, actually. Fun fact, huh?
I'm sure they'll be flattered to be associated with your brand of intellectual elitism.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

rottoy said:


> I do, actually. Fun fact, huh?
> I'm sure they'll be flattered to be associated with your brand of intellectual elitism.



It's not intellectual elitism, really... I have just listened to (and admired) their works and wondered, 'how did they do that?!'

And these humans are _kind enough_ to share their experience with us. Shouldn't we be grateful for that? For my part, I am very grateful for every post that re-peat or Rctec has ever posted!

And I would make the dramatic assertion that these are decent guys who actually care about music! And they are knowledgeable about MIDI and mockups and care about the craft we all aspire to! 

So why are we fighting?!?!


----------



## rottoy

marclawsonmusic said:


> It's not intellectual elitism, really... I have just listened to (and admired) their works and wondered, 'how did they do that?!'
> 
> And these humans are _kind enough_ to share their experience with us. Shouldn't we be grateful for that? For my part, I am very grateful for every post that re-peat or Rctec has ever posted!
> 
> And I would make the dramatic assertion that these are decent guys who actually care about music! And they are knowledgeable about MIDI and mockups and care about the craft we all aspire to!
> 
> So why are we fighting?!?!


I'm not questioning whether they are decent, loving souls.
I'm pretty positive they are! 

I do however object to the notion that a brusque, insensitive approach 
(And I'm mostly talking Peat here, as Hans seem to exercise quite a bit more tact in his answers.)
is perfectly okay if the person in question just happens to have a considerable amount of knowledge embedded in the sentiment. It sort of nullifies the entire message, at least for me.

Of what use is a fountain of knowledge if the only means of communicating it are through detached ramblings with a disregard (even disdain) for the recipient? Again, Peat.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

rottoy said:


> It sort of nullifies the entire message, at least for me.



Well, that is your loss, then. I will soak up what I can!

I wish you the best,
Marc


----------



## zolhof

marclawsonmusic said:


> It's not intellectual elitism, really... I have just listened to (and admired) their works and wondered, 'how did they do that?!'



We all know and love rctec, but I never had the pleasure to listen to re-peat's music. I feel like I'm really missing something here. Any links?


----------



## Guffy

sekkosiki said:


> As this is a thread at Member's Compositions, here's my remake of my mockup. Hopefully no one gets physically sick or insulted while listening to this. If you think I'm rude posting this, my apologies .



Isnt that the purpose of the thread? 
A bunch of people arguing isn't that interesting and could be done by PM imo.
I also did a (shorter) test.

Warning: May make you sick.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

zolhof said:


> We all know and love rctec, but I never had the pleasure to listen to re-peat's music. I feel like I'm really missing something here. Any links?


No, he does not keep a YouTube channel and often his links expire shortly after they are posted... but it is great stuff when you get to hear it!


----------



## mc_deli

KEnK said:


> I've said my piece.
> I have nothing more to add.
> 
> k


The irony of the football well and truly taken home!
Well played

(My impression was that the member that departed did so because the thread and comments might have a negative career impact.
Though that is a risk when you post in your own name or on behalf of your business on a public forum. Certainly factor why I do not post using my real name.)


----------



## Dave Connor

I only saw the first few replies and too busy to have caught the rest. I will say that repeat is a very thoughtful, discerning musician who has always spoken his mind. I'm hardly surprised he piped up if he was affronted by what he considered an assault on his senses (whether it was on yours or not.) The greatest composers who ever lived launched incredibly nasty verbal assaults on… the greatest composers who ever lived. We're all fair game folks.

As for Mr. Zimmer - good heavens! He's been target number one in these parts for years. There's an awful post about the guy every six minutes it seems. Not only having his music hammered but being questioned constantly whether he even wrote it! The OP has written a quality piano concerto apparently. Which is worse, criticizing the music honestly or asking him who really wrote it? Things like wild, errant, tabloid-like speculation as to HZ's financial earnings have been posted here as well. As if that has anything to do with music at all! My point is that he has put up with a lot here for a long time and still chooses to remain very positive and helpful to any that ask. If you say that someone in his position should be careful about criticizing someone's music, first of all that's hypocritical and second, what do you think he's doing every time you or I post some pitiful piece of music here and he abstains from any criticism? Give him a break if once in a blue moon he comes clean and exercises his right as a forum member to protest bad music. And don't be surprised if repeat acts like himself and others are softer spoken. It makes the world go round and the world will keep turning for the OP fellow (who apparently had Elgar turning in his grave.)


----------



## re-peat

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Ah jeez. Am I supposed to shed a pitiful little tear now? "Mob mentality"?


‘Mob’ is actually a very accurate word to describe this particular segment of the V.I. congregation, Jimmy. I know, because I’ve had them after me on more occasions than I care to remember in the past 10 years.

A mob of little-boxes-on-the-hillside pseudo-musicians who are ex-tre-me-ly protective of the comfort of their shared mediocrity and insignificance, and who’ll demonize anyone who threatens or questions it, with all the self-righteous venom they got.

Like mercury particles, they cling together, not through individual strength or vision but through complete lack of it, and they are only friendly if they recognize you as one of their own, or … if you’re happen to be very successful and famous in which case they’ll happily loose whatever last trace of integrity they still have left if that means gaining favour.

They’ll only condemn rudeness — at least, *their* interpretation of the word — if they consider it directed at one of their own, but if aimed at what they perceive as a threat, they fully support the use of it and will enthusiastically join in, not hesitating to drop the mask of civility if it serves their purpose.

Typically, they’d rather talk about codes of conduct than about music. Because codes of conduct is all they know about, whereas music simply doesn’t mean enough to them to care much about it either way. And when confronted with someone who actually does care (and, as such, reminds them of their limitations), they’ll grab the first opportunity to label him or her a snob and an ivory tower elitist, or resort to childish ridicule.

This thread is, sadly, another perfect example of that. Eight pages of whining about someone breaking their precious codes of conduct — predictably, not a single intelligent word about music, and not even a hint of trying to understand, let alone appreciate, that music might mean a lot more to someone else than it does to them — and when all is said and done, and this entire episode is about to turn into another one of V.I.’s more colourful anecdotes, they all return to their little boxes, no doubt complimenting one another on once again having safe-guarded their side of the hill from those nasty people who are more committed to music than they ever can imagine is possible.

A mob, Jimmy. No more, no less. And a very pitiful one.

_


----------



## Vischebaste

re-peat said:


> A mob, Jimmy. No more, no less. And a very pitiful one.
> 
> _


----------



## muk

Adding my 2c, if I may. The way I have become to know re-peat (and I only know re-peat, not Piet, the man behind) through this forum is that he cares a lot about music, which leads to frequent very knowledgeable and helpful advise and discussion. But only where he feels passion and love for the music. Where he senses that somebody was lazy about a mock up (which, for him, seems to equal being lazy about the music behind it) he comes in with a holy wrath and furor, crushing not only the mockup but the also the persons integrity. Because he can not stand laziness on a subject he loves. Maybe I am wrong here - and Piet, please correct me if I am - but that's what I gathered from his posting through the time I have been frequenting this forum.

Now, in his passion for music he is very much a role model for me. I like to think about myself that I do love music, and care about it greatly, and still I do learn from re-peats passion and get occasional impetus from it. In that sense he's a good role model probably for many here, including me.
He is also a role model for me - a negative one - when it comes to expressing critique about the subject of passion. Crush a mock up to pieces, use all the abusive language you can come up with (or care to google). Cool, not a problem for me. But use it on the mockup, not the person behind. Saying about a mockup that an amoeba could have come up with that: not a problem at all. Saying that an amoeba _has_ come up with that: not cool, not necessary. And it only harms a right cause: telling somebody that something he has done was completely off, which is helpful and necessary. But it doesn't have any effect if you wrap it in personal abuse, because such a critique is much more difficult to accept and act upon. So, in the current debate, I think re-peat was completely right about the mockup, and I have no issue whatsoever with anything he wrote about it. But it seems that he was completely wrong about Cyril's musicality. Personally I hope re-peat will continue to contribute here with all his knowledge and passion about music, but I also wish he would learn to refrain from personal insults. Because in my opinion passion for music does not need nor justify abuse on a personal level. Abuse the work, abuse the mockup. That's my opinion.

Something else that crossed my mind waddling through all the discussion here. I often find that there is much talk about tools and mockups, and so little about actual music. Even on the member's composition forum comments usually center around technical things like: the cymbal at 0:17 is a bit loud, isn't it?, or the staccati in that passage are a little uneven. Which is valuable and important, but doesn't touch upon the actual composition. Very rarely do I see discussion about the substance behind, the music itself. Even Piet's furor, in the cases I have seen it, is provoked by lazy programming, not by the music itself. Never have I seen read him crushing a composition for laziness, only ever mockups.
So I guess that's my takeaway from these pages. Try to talk about the actual music more on here. It is difficult because it needs time and dedication to x-ray a piece of music, to thoroughly analyze it, to try and grasp it's substance, not only it's appearance. And it may be controversial, because it is not an exact science, but an act of interpretation, which only ever can be plausible (or not), but not demonstrably true. I'll try to come up with an example of what I mean.


----------



## Jerome Vonhogen

If this is all a matter of good intentions badly expressed, shouldn't we ask Cyril about his real intentions to leave the forum?

We all assume he left the forum because of the criticism in that infamous thread, but what do we really know about his intentions?

- Jerome Vonhögen


----------



## NoamL

muk said:


> Something else that crossed my mind waddling through all the discussion here. I often find that there is much talk about tools and mockups, and so little about actual music. Even on the member's composition forum comments usually center around technical things like: the cymbal at 0:17 is a bit loud, isn't it?, or the staccati in that passage are a little uneven. Which is valuable and important, but doesn't touch upon the actual composition. Very rarely do I see discussion about the substance behind, the music itself. Even Piet's furor, in the cases I have seen it, is provoked by lazy programming, not by the music itself. Never have I seen read him crushing a composition for laziness, only ever mockups.
> So I guess that's my takeaway from these pages. Try to talk about the actual music more on here. It is difficult because it needs time and dedication to x-ray a piece of music, to thoroughly analyze it, to try and grasp it's substance, not only it's appearance. And it may be controversial, because it is not an exact science, but an act of interpretation, which only ever can be plausible (or not), but not demonstrably true. I'll try to come up with an example of what I mean.



If you've seen any of Mike V's seminars, he does this when he reviews student work. Plays along on piano to understand the motifs and harmonies.

Only by getting a piece under your hands do you truly understand it.

Feedback on mockup stuff is great too, but for the most part it's stuff the composer himself/herself will realize 5 months later. They'll go through their files... "Oh, that piece!" and start listening to it and go "Oh man, that cymbal was way too loud..."


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> If this is all a matter of good intentions badly expressed, shouldn't we ask Cyril about his real intentions to leave the forum?
> 
> We all assume he left the forum because of the criticism in that infamous thread, but what do we really know about his intentions?
> 
> - Jerome Vonhögen


Hi Jerome,

From what I know by talking to him is that he left the forum because of what was said in that thread.


----------



## Baron Greuner

NoamL said:


> Just because the guy is bad at mockups - which everyone was once -



I still am. 

Incidentally, Paul Macartney can read music, but not necessarily to a great standard.


----------



## NoamL

Let me throw one more name on the _Not In The Canon_ list: Matthew Locke. Go listen right now!


----------



## Baron Greuner

Oooh. Paul Macartney, Willy Walton and now Matthew Locke.

What a treasure trove of names you are.


----------



## NoamL

Well, in a way he was the zeroth Beatle.


----------



## Jerome Vonhogen

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Hi Jerome,
> 
> From what I know by talking to him is that he left the forum because of what was said in that thread.


 


Thanks, Alexander. I thought it would be relevant to know if the events were causally related.

It doesn't answer the question though if he did this to protect his image and reputation, or that he left because he felt that the criticism was unfair.

I'm not drawing any conclusions here, I'm just asking questions.

- Jerome Vonhögen


----------



## Vischebaste

re-peat said:


> Like mercury particles, they cling together, not through individual strength or vision but through complete lack of it, and they are only friendly if they recognize you as one of their own, or … if you’re happen to be very successful and famous in which case they’ll happily loose whatever last trace of integrity they still have left if that means gaining favour.
> 
> They’ll only condemn rudeness — at least, *their* interpretation of the word — if they consider it directed at one of their own, but if aimed at what they perceive as a threat, they fully support the use of it and will enthusiastically join in, not hesitating to drop the mask of civility if it serves their purpose.
> 
> Typically, they’d rather talk about codes of conduct than about music. Because codes of conduct is all they know about, whereas music simply doesn’t mean enough to them to care much about it either way. And when confronted with someone who actually does care (and, as such, reminds them of their limitations), they’ll grab the first opportunity to label him or her a snob and an ivory tower elitist, or resort to childish ridicule.
> 
> _



Piet, I'm the kind of guy that feels passionately, _passionately_ about accurate use of analogies. To the point where it actually causes me _physical pain_ to see you torture that "mercury particle" analogy in the way you've done above. Where to begin with your painfully misguided attempt... For starters, do mercury particles cling together as a result of "complete lack of vision"? Are they prepared to sacrifice "whatever last trace of integrity they still have left if that means gaining favour"? "Condemning rudeness"? That's a laugh. How are they going to do that when they haven't got mouths? Through their body language? Have you any evidence that a mercury particle will "drop the mask of civility if it serves their purpose"? Where's the evidence, Piet? Show me the peer reviewed papers. I could continue, line by line, but I'll spare you the embarrassment.

This is the brutal truth, Piet: you're bloody hopeless at analogies. Someone's got to say it, and - given that no-one cares as much about well-constructed analogies as I do - I've appointed myself as the lone Speaker of Truth, _BLOWER OF MINDS, _to bring cold, hard reality crashing down upon you.

Hope this helps.


----------



## MrCambiata

It's just a matter of fact that you can't go through life without encountering unpleasant things, like criticism. I mean you can if you stay at home and don't contact other people. But like John Augustus Shedd once said, a ship in a harbor is safe but that's not what ships are made for. If you present your music/mock up in public, you can expect that some people will not like it. And there are different cases. Some will say a bad critic in a polite way, some in a nasty way (like in this case, I find), and some will only say bad things about you behind your back. You should be prepared for all cases, it's inevitable. If the critic speaks the truth, you should learn from it, regardless of the manner it was delivered.

A few years ago I moved to Germany (I was born in Israel) and during my music studies got a job teaching piano at a music school. I experienced disrespect from another teacher because of the fact that I hadn't studied pedagogy like he had. Some of his critic about me was right, but was expressed in a hateful manner, and some was just rude and mean (everything I say is not important etc.).It does stay under your skin to some extent but you move on and learn to appreciate the nice things that happen to you. It's just the human nature to give bad experiences more weight.

What I'm trying to say is, if the OP would know about the nice compliments he received for his piano concerto here, and give them the same weight as he did for the critic he received for his short mock up experiment, he would have probably not left the forum.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

muk said:


> Something else that crossed my mind waddling through all the discussion here. I often find that there is much talk about tools and mockups, and so little about actual music. Even on the member's composition forum comments usually center around technical things like: the cymbal at 0:17 is a bit loud, isn't it?, or the staccati in that passage are a little uneven. Which is valuable and important, but doesn't touch upon the actual composition. Very rarely do I see discussion about the substance behind, the music itself. Even Piet's furor, in the cases I have seen it, is provoked by lazy programming, not by the music itself. Never have I seen read him crushing a composition for laziness, only ever mockups.
> So I guess that's my takeaway from these pages. Try to talk about the actual music more on here. It is difficult because it needs time and dedication to x-ray a piece of music, to thoroughly analyze it, to try and grasp it's substance, not only it's appearance. And it may be controversial, because it is not an exact science, but an act of interpretation, which only ever can be plausible (or not), but not demonstrably true. I'll try to come up with an example of what I mean.


If I ever comment on a piece on these forums, it's going to be about the music. I don't know enough about the tech side to comment on that. And even if I did, it's the musicality that matters to me, not the tech. Actually, it's even more basic than the "musicality" for me: it's whether it sounds good to my ears. I don't know and don't give a flip whether someone's mock-up was done properly. Do I like it? Then I'll give kudos. If not, I move on.


----------



## Dean

Man,this circus just wont leave town!


----------



## sleepy hollow

Dean said:


> Man,this circus just wont leave town!


...and you regularly attend the show.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

re-peat said:


> ‘Mob’ is actually a very accurate word to describe this particular segment of the V.I. congregation, Jimmy. I know, because I’ve had them after me on more occasions than I care to remember in the past 10 years.
> 
> A mob of little-boxes-on-the-hillside pseudo-musicians who are ex-tre-me-ly protective of the comfort of their shared mediocrity and insignificance, and who’ll demonize anyone who threatens or questions it, with all the self-righteous venom they got.
> 
> Like mercury particles, they cling together, not through individual strength or vision but through complete lack of it, and they are only friendly if they recognize you as one of their own, or … if you’re happen to be very successful and famous in which case they’ll happily loose whatever last trace of integrity they still have left if that means gaining favour.
> 
> They’ll only condemn rudeness — at least, *their* interpretation of the word — if they consider it directed at one of their own, but if aimed at what they perceive as a threat, they fully support the use of it and will enthusiastically join in, not hesitating to drop the mask of civility if it serves their purpose.
> 
> Typically, they’d rather talk about codes of conduct than about music. Because codes of conduct is all they know about, whereas music simply doesn’t mean enough to them to care much about it either way. And when confronted with someone who actually does care (and, as such, reminds them of their limitations), they’ll grab the first opportunity to label him or her a snob and an ivory tower elitist, or resort to childish ridicule.
> 
> This thread is, sadly, another perfect example of that. Eight pages of whining about someone breaking their precious codes of conduct — predictably, not a single intelligent word about music, and not even a hint of trying to understand, let alone appreciate, that music might mean a lot more to someone else than it does to them — and when all is said and done, and this entire episode is about to turn into another one of V.I.’s more colourful anecdotes, they all return to their little boxes, no doubt complimenting one another on once again having safe-guarded their side of the hill from those nasty people who are more committed to music than they ever can imagine is possible.
> 
> A mob, Jimmy. No more, no less. And a very pitiful one.
> 
> _



Granted – perhaps there is truth to that. It happens when a thread has outlived its usefulness and is overstaying its welcome. Interestingly, but not surprisingly, it has been the case with the "other" thread just like it is here.

We've seen a mob gang up there as well – a snidely grinning bellicose bunch, agitated by an instigator that I'm sure you're fully aware you are, and starstruck and spurred by the presence of Mr. Hollywood Man, although that I'm sure was never his intention. It must be a quite a turn-off – I imagine he gets that a lot: the moment he shows up somewhere, a number of people suddenly start acting funny.

It's a shame that we collectively missed out to a potentially enriching thread that goes beyond the rampant vapid consumerism and petty technicalities of digital music production one is used to seeing. We got these 20 pages or something of bickering instead. You never got to the point where you could truly contribute in a way that's more valuable than calling someone an amoeba and a musical idiot. You had more important things to say and it never came to that.

You have re-peatedly pointed out how much music meant to you. But as much as this might be true, it seems that your enjoyment of monkey business and stepping on people's toes (and truth be told, I _do_ absolutely get that) is an impulse capable of even overriding your respect and love for the art.

Honesty this and "though love" that, whatever, there just needs to be a distinction between keeping it focused on the matter and not letting it out on the person. That's just how people are, I've come to realize over time. A little bit of testing the waters, some courtesy, a little bit of an advance in graciousness is just needed for them to get it together.

And now we have to wad through all this nonsense (perhaps alienate and drive off a user or two in the process …) just to sort out all the crap and be able to go back to square one and talk about music.

Why would this thread be anything about music now? The other one was, up to the point where it disappeared, already a mess. There were things that had to be said about that whole bourgeois tragedy, and reasonable voices have done so, on the first few pages here. I think it's good that you've been reprimanded a little bit, Piet. You went too far and somebody needed to tell you. I believe we're at the point where we can wrap it up now though.


----------



## Baron Greuner

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> We've seen a mob gang up there as well – a snidely grinning bellicose bunch, agitated by an instigator that I'm sure you're fully aware you are, and starstruck and spurred by the presence of Mr. Hollywood Man, although that I'm sure was never his intention. It must be a quite a turn-off – I imagine he gets that a lot: the moment he shows up somewhere, a number of people suddenly start acting funny.



OMG Daphne pass me the popcorn my darling!!

I do believe Jimmy is about to name names!


----------



## rottoy

re-peat said:


> ‘Mob’ is actually a very accurate word to describe this particular segment of the V.I. congregation, Jimmy. I know, because I’ve had them after me on more occasions than I care to remember in the past 10 years.
> 
> A mob of little-boxes-on-the-hillside pseudo-musicians who are ex-tre-me-ly protective of the comfort of their shared mediocrity and insignificance, and who’ll demonize anyone who threatens or questions it, with all the self-righteous venom they got.
> 
> Like mercury particles, they cling together, not through individual strength or vision but through complete lack of it, and they are only friendly if they recognize you as one of their own, or … if you’re happen to be very successful and famous in which case they’ll happily loose whatever last trace of integrity they still have left if that means gaining favour.
> 
> They’ll only condemn rudeness — at least, *their* interpretation of the word — if they consider it directed at one of their own, but if aimed at what they perceive as a threat, they fully support the use of it and will enthusiastically join in, not hesitating to drop the mask of civility if it serves their purpose.
> 
> Typically, they’d rather talk about codes of conduct than about music. Because codes of conduct is all they know about, whereas music simply doesn’t mean enough to them to care much about it either way. And when confronted with someone who actually does care (and, as such, reminds them of their limitations), they’ll grab the first opportunity to label him or her a snob and an ivory tower elitist, or resort to childish ridicule.
> 
> This thread is, sadly, another perfect example of that. Eight pages of whining about someone breaking their precious codes of conduct — predictably, not a single intelligent word about music, and not even a hint of trying to understand, let alone appreciate, that music might mean a lot more to someone else than it does to them — and when all is said and done, and this entire episode is about to turn into another one of V.I.’s more colourful anecdotes, they all return to their little boxes, no doubt complimenting one another on once again having safe-guarded their side of the hill from those nasty people who are more committed to music than they ever can imagine is possible.
> 
> A mob, Jimmy. No more, no less. And a very pitiful one.
> 
> _


Welcome to Piet's solipsistic world of musical wonder & tepid analogies.


----------



## prodigalson

You guys need to take a breath, step away from your computers and go be in the sun for a while. Just take a walk and be in the world where no one. gives. a shit. about. mock ups. 

Piet just obviously takes himself way too seriously and all you guys are doing is just giving him what he wants by either being a sycophant or an executioner. 

As the great jazz pianist Kenny Werner writes in his book "Effortless Mastery" the first step to mastering your instrument and freeing yourself to be truly creative is to realize that it doesn't fucking matter.

If someone puts a plastic bag over your head and the air slowly fades how many of you are gonna be thinking about fucking mockups??


----------



## rottoy

prodigalson said:


> If someone puts a plastic bag over your head and the air slowly fades how many of you are gonna be thinking about fucking mockups??


What's the point of these dramatic comparisons? Yes, you're right that nobody on here would ever think of MIDI mockups as they are drawing their last, laboured breaths on this Earth. But that doesn't mean MIDI mockups don't matter one wit, because they obviously do in the context of this FORUM.

Unless people are actively and LITERALLY choking each other in here with plastic bags, there really is no point using it to end your sentiment.


----------



## Jerome Vonhogen

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> We've seen a mob gang up there as well – a snidely grinning bellicose bunch, agitated by an instigator that I'm sure you're fully aware you are, and starstruck and spurred by the presence of Mr. Hollywood Man, although that I'm sure was never his intention. It must be a quite a turn-off – I imagine he gets that a lot: the moment he shows up somewhere, a number of people suddenly start acting funny.


 

It's called 'chimpanzee politics', and you can read all about it in the wonderful books by Frans de Waal. 

- Jerome Vonhögen


----------



## Baron Greuner

I used to like putting a plastic bag over my head almost daily, but stopped when supermarkets started charging for them.


----------



## prodigalson

It's just a metaphor my good man. One Kenny Werner uses in his book that resonated with me when I was a young music student in a competitive college taking himself too seriously.

Perspective, that's all. Take it or leave it. 

Seriously though, "Effortless Mastery" it's a great book.


----------



## Baron Greuner

prodigalson said:


> It's just a metaphor my good man.



I was being serious my dear fellow.


----------



## prodigalson

Haha sorry, I was actually responding to Rottoy. 

But don't mind me, carry on everyone!


----------



## re-peat

prodigalson said:


> As the great jazz pianist Kenny Werner writes in his book "Effortless Mastery" the first step (...) is to realize that it doesn't (...) matter.


You misread Werner, Prodigal. People like Werner only say “it doesn’t matter” after all the little and not so little things which DO matter have been thoroughly assimilated/conquered/mastered. If nothing really mattered, Werner certainly wouldn’t have turned out the musician, writer and teacher which he is. He knows it, but you don’t seem to.

The freedom of being able to say “it doesn’t matter” is a hard-won freedom, the result of years of commitment, study, failure, success, more failure and finally reaching a sort of plane where the freedom ‘to let go’ becomes an option, one of several. Any such freedom prematurely chosen, is not real freedom, it’s cowardness and/or the lazy man’s choice.

And yes, I take myself seriously. At least, the musician in me. (Who wouldn’t be what he is if I didn’t take him seriously.) That’s not the problem here. The problem is that I’m disposed to take everyone else here — fellow musicians, I assumed — serious too, well, I’d love to anyway, but that’s turned out to be of a naïveté which has resulted in more disappointment than anything else. If I admit to one mistake, that would be it: taking all of you too seriously.

Explain to me, please, why a musician, on a musicians' forum no less, has to almost be embarrassed for taking music seriously?

_


----------



## Dean

sleepy hollow said:


> ...and you regularly attend the show.



Not really.
I did'nt read a single post of the original thread,only posted yesterday suggesting everyone to take a break and move on.This forum is not the same place lately,..not sure why? D


----------



## rottoy

re-peat said:


> You misread Werner, Prodigal. People like Werner only say “it doesn’t matter” after all the little and not so little things which DO matter have been thoroughly assimilated/conquered/mastered. If nothing really mattered, Werner certainly wouldn’t have turned out the musician, writer and teacher which he is. He knows it, but you don’t seem to.
> 
> The freedom of being able to say “it doesn’t matter” is a hard-won freedom, the result of years of commitment, study, failure, success, more failure and finally reaching a sort of plane where the freedom ‘to let go’ becomes an option, one of several. Any such freedom prematurely chosen, is not real freedom, it’s cowardness and/or the lazy man’s choice.
> 
> And yes, I take myself seriously. At least, the musician in me. (Who wouldn’t be what he is if I didn’t take him seriously.) That’s not the problem here. The problem is that I’m disposed to take everyone else here — fellow musicians, I assumed — serious too, well, I’d love to anyway, but that’s turned out to be of a naïveté which has resulted in more disappointment than anything else. If I admit to one mistake, that would be it: taking all of you too seriously.
> 
> Explain to me, please, why a musician, on a musician’s forum no less, has to almost be embarrassed for taking music seriously?
> 
> _


Perhaps people should proactively issue an apology for inconveniencing you with their existence.


----------



## Yogi108

I deal with the inner critic vs. the artist everyday, both within myself and with my piano students... I'm pretty sure there are a few others on this forum who know what I am talking about... Hehehe...

Here's a link to an artist who collected his drawings from the age of two... 

http://www.technocrazed.com/an-arti...-artistic-skill-since-childhood-photo-gallery

The openness to explore your artistic medium is key... But so is your ability to deal with setbacks and criticism... I was not involved in the original posts... All I would say, the harder the critic towards others, in my experience, the harder the critic we are to our own selves... And... dare I say... that might be good... Everyone is different... Everyone is unique... 

Warm regards to all, 

Rod

PS: You may or may not like Marc Allante's drawings... but one thing is for sure... Over time, he evolved his process and came up with something that he was willing to put out there and share with the world. That takes time, commitment and guts. I'm still working on that process, but it's good to be able to share in that process with other musicians... including here on VI Control...


----------



## mpalenik

re-peat said:


> And yes, I take myself seriously. At least, the musician in me. (Who wouldn’t be what he is if I didn’t take him seriously.) That’s not the problem here. The problem is that I’m disposed to take everyone else here — fellow musicians, I assumed — serious too, well, I’d love to anyway, but that’s turned out to be of a naïveté which has resulted in more disappointment than anything else. If I admit to one mistake, that would be it: taking all of you too seriously.
> 
> Explain to me, please, why a musician, on a musicians' forum no less, has to almost be embarrassed for taking music seriously?



This is the part that I have a problem with, and the reason that I posted about physics, rather than music. I took 16 years of piano lessons, I go to the opera about 6 times/year, and I enjoy composing as a hobby, but I didn't care enough about music to study it in college. It's very possible that you care about music more than I do. I did care enough about physics, though, that I spent 11 years in college studying it and that I go to work every day to try to develop new methods and study new problems--that it consumes my thoughts when I'm not at work. That I spend time on nights and weekends working on ideas in my notebook and trying to get papers ready for publication, submitting talks for conferences, etc.

What irks me is that you seem to think you're the only one who understands what it means to be passionate about something. And furthermore that being passionate about something entitles you to be rude--or that if anyone else truly shared your kind of passion that he would go around spewing insults at people because that's the best way to make your point.

And I'm trying to tell you that I *understand* the feeling when it seems like someone is being so insufferable that it's offensive. But what you learn if you have to teach enough people and work with enough people--provided you're not truly just an arrogant jerk at heart--is that this really is *your* problem, not theirs. That most of the time, people really are willing to learn and to put in effort. Most importantly, no one is ever doing something "stupid" deliberately to offend you. Ever.

I really do get the feeling though. I can remember having a dream one time about screaming "shut the fuck up" at a student. . . but it's totally, totally unnecessary, and totally wrong. And I'm not sure why there are so many people here defending the "If you're not being mean, you're coddling people. The only way to teach is by insulting stupidity." In my actual experience, the opposite of that is true.

Although my field isn't physics education, it was something that interested me, and I went to weekly seminars during my last 2 years of grad school. What we think works and what really works are very often worlds apart. And even students that are successful with traditional methods, like lectures, and even though there are professors who spout things like "well, *I* learned this way, why should we change things to accommodate other people?", it turns out that EVERYBODY learns better with different methods. Even the students who were successful with traditional methods. The point? Just because something worked for you (e.g. someone harshly, unapologetically called you out for being stupid), doesn't mean that it's the best, or the correct way to teach.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Another thing that I also observed here is that senile stubbornness really is a thing. That's not to be disregarded.


----------



## KEnK

mpalenik said:


> And I'm not sure why there are so many people here defending the "If you're not being mean, you're coddling people. The only way to teach is by insulting stupidity."


mpalenik-

Yes, there are people defending the tough love approach.
Though I don't practice that in my own teaching,(and wouldn't)
I do see the value and merit of that approach.
I don't think anyone has been saying that's the only way.
Nor do I think anyone is defending the actual insults, 
as much as the hardened and oft expressed dislike of mediocrity.

To answer the above quote directly, I think that it's more about-
an ability or willingness to separate the wheat from the chaff,
rather than throwing out the baby w/ the bathwater.

Just wanna say I've enjoyed your posts in this thread.
You're a calm and reasoned voice in a storm.

thanks
k


----------



## Baron Greuner

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Another thing that I also observed here is that senile stubbornness really is a thing. That's not to be disregarded.



I find putting a plastic bag over other people's heads helps a lot with senility.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Baron Greuner said:


> I find putting a plastic bag over other people's heads helps a lot with senility.



Whose? I wouldn't want to do it wrong.


----------



## Vischebaste

re-peat said:


> Explain to me, please, why a musician, on a musicians' forum no less, has to almost be embarrassed for taking music seriously?
> _



Three things:

1) You don't have to be embarrassed about it, it's very commendable. However, you have a rather binary view as to how seriously music should be taken on this forum. It's rather unimaginative to expect everyone else to conform to your exact level of passion (in fact, I'm indulging your paradigm by even calling it a "level", it's not as measurable as you seem to imply). For some reason you regard anything less than the arbitrary Gold Standard - established and moderated by you - as "falling short", rather than "being different".

2) Actually, some fantastic music can be produced by not taking music seriously. A swathe of great punk bands would have laughed their arses off at your po-faced approach.

3) Ironically, Orcel didn't seem to lack any passion, or competence, for that matter, judging by his piano concerto. Has it occurred to you that his methodology might just be different to yours, rather than inferior?


----------



## mc_deli

Crazy not to lock this and move it to the off topic archive.


----------



## prodigalson

re-peat said:


> You misread Werner, Prodigal. People like Werner only say “it doesn’t matter” after all the little and not so little things which DO matter have been thoroughly assimilated/conquered/mastered. If nothing really mattered, Werner certainly wouldn’t have turned out the musician, writer and teacher which he is. He knows it, but you don’t seem to.



Actually Piet, it is you who have a much narrower understanding of what Kenny was talking about. His pursuit of effortlessness isn't just limited to the moment when we get up on stage and perform or sit down to compose (although that is ONE important goal of his approach). He advises a complete abandonment of ego, a freedom from all unnecessary worries as it relates to ALL aspects of the study of music from the act of learning to the act of doing, including practicing. For example, he speaks of "surrendering the need to accomplish anything when practicing." and "Imposing fewer conditions on your practicing disarms the ego and brings you into the moment."

He continues, _"In the course of working with music students of all ages, from the amateur to the professional, I have found many sincere but ego-ridden musicians. As I was, they are defeated by selfcenteredness, and lack vision and purpose. And, most important, they don’t know what music is, who they are, and what they are really doing here...music often gets identified with the rules instead of with *”freedom” *and *”fun.”*...It seems as if in order to be good you have to play good. Musicians who fall into this trap generally don’t enjoy life. Every day brings anxiety. YOUR OBSESSIVE NEED TO SOUND GOOD! When you don’t try as hard to be good, you play better."
_
And a major tenet of his teaching in this pursuit is gaining *PERSPECTIVE* on what is really important in life and really understanding why we're even doing this in the first place. He writes, _"Some people walk around wearing the badge proudly: ”My whole life is music. I’m not a human being, I’m a musician. It isn’t not necessary for me to interact with the ’squares,’ I just care about playing” and so on. But, you have to discover a reason for living that is more important than playing! You need a sense of self that is stable, durable and not attached to your last solo." 
_
He continues in a section appropriately titled: *'*_*It’s Only Music!'*,

"Here is a very simple test to prove that music is not that important: Go to the kitchen and get a plastic bag. Place it over your head, tying the opening snugly around your neck so that no air can get through. Now, let’s count to one hundred. By the count of twenty, let me ask you: how important is music? Are there any ”burning issues”? Is Charlie Parker important? By the count of 35, would you be debating whether or not bebop was the real music? By 54, no doubt you would be contemplating whether music should swing, or whether free jazz really is where it’s at. At 73, the question would burn in your consciousness; ”Is Cecil Taylor for real?” I think you get the point. The only thing that’s really important is your next breath. We lose sight of reality very easily because of the little dictator in our heads: the mind. Our mind is always feeding us messages: ”I must sound good;” ”This is the right music, that is the wrong music;” ”This is valid jazz, that is politically correct jazz”

"In the overall scheme of things, your level of proficiency is not important. Remember that you can benefit from realizing this, because if you decide it’s not so important, YOU MIGHT PLAY A LOT BETTER!"
_
And finally, in a quote that is truly what I meant in my previous post,_ "_*The truth is that every breath is a gift, *_*and playing music is optional. *_*For the people in Somalia, food, not bebop, is important. For the people of Bosnia, it’s peace. The absence of pain is important. Food, shelter, clean air, clean water, clothes to wear: these are more important than musical concerns, if not music itself. Music is not the cake. It’s the icing on the cake. It is one of the enjoyments provided for us on this planet, in this life.
*
_"How can we retain the bliss of freedom as we approach our instrument? We must let go of all desires and focus on* love."*_

He speaks of "freedom", "Joy", "fun" and "love". Very little of which we've seen from you these recent days.


----------



## germancomponist

_In his play, Hamlet (1602),Shakespeare said, “Nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”_
Friends, have a good red wine together!


----------



## rottoy

mc_deli said:


> Crazy not to lock this and move it to the off topic archive.


I'd rather they'd leave it here. 
An interesting insight into the workings of 
some members here, warts and all.


----------



## Jerome Vonhogen

Sebastianmu said:


> Let's take the time to listen to his 1st piano concerto!






Shouldn't we just end this thread?
Cyril Orcel has left the forum, and this thread probably won't make him reconsider that decision.

It's typical that most of the posts in this thread are about the members who criticized him, while only a few talk about Orcel's music.

Anyway, I like his piano concerto and would have asked him a couple of things about his score. Too bad that's not gonna happen anymore. I hope he will have a great career and lots of success anyway. I just hope he won't regret his decision.

- Jerome Vonhögen


----------



## germancomponist

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> I was able to save these screenshots from the video of the premiere of Cyril Orcel's Piano Concerto, right before Cyril canceled his YouTube account and removed all his videos because of the interruptions during the concert.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 4951
> 
> 
> View attachment 4952
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poor Cyril!
> 
> - Jerome Vonhögen


Kindergarten .... .
I suggest to move this thread to "off topics"!


----------



## KEnK

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> I was able to save these screenshots from the video of the premiere of Cyril Orcel's Piano Concerto, right before Cyril canceled his YouTube account and removed all his videos because of the interruptions during the concert.


???
WTF!


----------



## sleepy hollow

Dean said:


> This forum is not the same place lately,..not sure why?


Yeah well, can't really disagree with what you said. Whatever made me register in this forum, it sure wasn't people fighting over Star Wars music, Star Wars films, and...uhm... countless other topics.
One can only hope that these kinda fights won't be a permanent thing.


----------



## re-peat

prodigalson said:


> Kenny Werner: "The only thing that’s really important is your next breath."


You’re right, Prodigal, it is me who misunderstood Kenny Werner, and not you. I assumed he was a wiser man, that’s all. And how I wish you hadn’t make me read this. Before, I had some mild appreciation for Werner, the jazz pianist, but after reading all this drivel, that appreciation will now always be spoiled by thinking askance of the man.

But you buy all that pseudo-profound self-improvement twaddle which he’s selling, I take it?

I can’t, I’m sorry. To argument that music is not important because when suffering starvation or facing immediate death, music is likely not going to be on one’s mind, strikes me as the sort infantile reasoning which people usually leave behind them by the age of 7. And _“To the people in Somalia, food, not bebop is important.”_ Another jewel of revelatory insight, isn’t it? Give the man the Nobel Prize.

If the only thing that really matters in a human life is “the next breath” and Kenny’s is the word to abide by, the entire world might just as well opt for a complete stand-still right now, wouldn’t you say? Absolutely nothing to be done, loved, written, built, treasured, imagined, created or consummated anymore, because none of it matters anyway. Millions of people roaming about the planet, kennyly detached from all that they might have felt passionate about, abandoning all commitment to whatever it was that gave their lives sense, meaning, direction and fullfilment, because … none of it amounts to anything anyway, Kenny says. Let’s all revel in our own and each other’s bland mediocrity, let’s stop striving to be the best we can be, and why not abolish education too while we’re at it, because knowledge doesn’t matter anyway the moment the certainty of our next breath is no longer a certainty. And above all, let’s stigmatize all those who are not prepared to live by Kenny’s Word as self-centered, conceited ego-maniacs.

But …

… in Kenny’s world, no prospect of another “Kind Of Blue” or “A Love Supreme”, is there? No, sir. Simply tons and tons of average, facile and instantly forgettable dreck the only defining characteristic of which is that is has been excreted with the freedom to be average, facile and instantly forgettable.

And if you and Kenny equate that with joy, fun and love, I can't but feel sorry for the two of you.

_


----------



## rayinstirling

Sad, I've just wasted half an hour of my life reading through this reposted thread.
No wonder I seldom look in here now.

No one should post anything online if unwilling to accept critisism whether constructive or not.
Take it or leave.
The real stirrers are those criticising the critics.


----------



## fiestared

Hi,
After reading this thread, I've got the feeling most of you, forget something important, this forum is in "English/American English", and for some people it takes a real effort to follow and understand the subtleties. Perhaps it was the case for Cyril Orcel, so maybe some of you could have been more "indulgent" with him. When you(fluent in English) write some "slang, or jargon" it could be misunderstood by non fluent people. When I read some threads sometimes they go in "slang" and I'm completely lost in your turn of phrase, it could explain the fiasco of this "Elgar thread" Anyway it's my 2 cents.
F.red


----------



## MrCambiata

rayinstirling said:


> The real stirrers are those criticising the critics.



This critic presents an interesting paradox.


----------



## Baron Greuner

fiestared said:


> Hi,
> After reading this thread, I've got the feeling most of you, forget something important, this forum is in "English/American English", and for some people it takes a real effort to follow and understand the subtleties. Perhaps it was the case for Cyril Orcel, so maybe some of you could have been more "indulgent" with him. When you(fluent in English) write some "slang, or jargon" it could be misunderstood by non fluent people. When I read some threads sometimes they go in "slang" and I'm completely lost in your turn of phrase, it could explain the fiasco of this "Elgar thread" Anyway it's my 2 cents.
> F.red



Well state your problem or request and I will endeavour to explain in non slang English with no ambiguity whatsoever.


----------



## FriFlo

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> Shouldn't we just end this thread?
> Cyril Orcel has left the forum, and this thread probably won't make him reconsider that decision.
> 
> It's typical that most of the posts in this thread are about the members who criticized him, while only a few talk about Orcel's music.
> 
> Anyway, I like his piano concerto and would have asked him a couple of things about his score. Too bad that's not gonna happen anymore. I hope he will have a great career and lots of success anyway. I just hope he won't regret his decision.
> 
> - Jerome Vonhögen


Well, I actually don't like his piano concert ... And I think Orcel really does have poor ears when it comes to the midi mockup. But at the same time, I think Piet didn't HAVE to put his choice of words as he has. But then again, Orcel seems to be a very proud a sensitive fellow. I actually think, he should not have left the forum because of it. Piet has always made those kind of blunt comments and if you know him (forum-wise), you don't take that personally. I found out that he (Piet) is just very good at what he does! So, I would not be so sad, if he would criticize something I wrote! I am rather sad, that he never even commented on any work I have posted here!  You see, I am trying to learn from him! On the other forum (which I am not allowed to name, I guess?) he shares a lot of thoughts about sample libraries in this very blunt way and it really helps to understand certain things, even if I must say, I do not always agree, just most of the time.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Orcel too sensitive? I don't know, I think I'm beginning to realize that he actually might not be sensitive enough. What a dense and obtuse bozo. Walks away and doesn't even realize he's been gentled and graced. Such ignorance while others wouldn't wash the side of the face anymore which Pistol Piet chose to spit on


----------



## creativeforge

re-peat said:


> They never are, are they? How could they possibly?
> 
> And yet … despite the growing number of posters ‘remembering correctly’ (but in actual fact conveniently half-remembering or paraphrasing out of context, only to suit their sanctimonious indignation), the simple truth is that Mr. Zimmer agreed with nasty re-peat … let’s see … wait for it, I’m trying to remember it correctly, … ah … here it is: 100%.
> 
> But somehow this has now become, after much ‘collective remembering correctly’, that Mr. Zimmer has been “honest, somewhat direct, but actually really constructive” and acted with “a clear intention to build up and encourage” — a most creative interpretation of someone shouting “Stop!!”, if you ask me —, whereas the one whom Mr. Zimmer agreed fully with, is cast as a disgusting elitist, Rudeness Personified, and the sole vile destroyer of poor old Cyril.
> 
> All this to say that the blush of shame and remorse doesn’t mantle my cheek, and that I firmly stand by every single syllable I wrote. Someone *had* to write it, I feel. Is what any serious and self-respecting musician would agree with 100%.
> 
> _



*Wow, the levels of gratuitous insults you throw at people have NOTHING to do with music. Nothing.*

I have been the recipient of your so-called self-congratulatory "insightful criticisms" and I had never - *EVER* - read anything so vile, verbally assaulting, violent and foul in my entire life - and from a total stranger no less. Nothing constructive, only drunken insults, and worse. Just because you didn't appreciate the colours of the new site. Others shared similar thoughts, and didn't need to denigrate me or stomp on my humanity in front of everyone. 

So please, to compare your inane putrefied comments to Hans', or even suggest they were criticisms, is the epitome of narcissism. 

*CORRECTION: *Hans may have agreed with your complaint about the treatment of the piece, etc., but I doubt very much that he agreed 100% with the treatment of Cyril, the ongoing insults, without any provocation or justification. For you to start beating your chest with this is just another one of those memorable moments for me. There is a difference between a severe feedback and flying-off-the-handle insults. 

There is NO need for your personal attacks. NONE. Stop for a second, try to learn something. That's what many people have been trying to convey to you. Others, well, they are their own reward. 

This isn't a season of Survivor. For many people, music is their passion, their life. And if you have something to teach someone, you don't need to pulverize them first. I hope this isn't how you were treated yourself, because it's really bad. REALLY. BAD.

There, someone had to say it. 

Good night,

Andre


----------



## rayinstirling

creativeforge said:


> *Wow, the levels of gratuitous insults you throw at people have NOTHING to do with music. Nothing.*
> 
> I have been the recipient of your so-called self-congratulatory "insightful criticisms" and I had never - *EVER* - read anything so vile, verbally assaulting, violent and foul in my entire life - and from a total stranger no less. Nothing constructive, only drunken insults, and worse. Just because you didn't appreciate the colours of the new site. Others shared similar thoughts, and didn't need to denigrate me or stomp on my humanity in front of everyone.
> 
> So please, to compare your inane putrefied comments to Hans', or even suggest they were criticisms, is the epitome of narcissism.
> 
> *CORRECTION: *Hans may have agreed with your complaint about the treatment of the piece, etc., but I doubt very much that he agreed 100% with the treatment of Cyril, the ongoing insults, without any provocation or justification. For you to start beating your chest with this is just another one of those memorable moments for me. There is a difference between a severe feedback and flying-off-the-handle insults.
> 
> There is NO need for your personal attacks. NONE. Stop for a second, try to learn something. That's what many people have been trying to convey to you. Others, well, they are their own reward.
> 
> This isn't a season of Survivor. For many people, music is their passion, their life. And if you have something to teach someone, you don't need to pulverize them first. I hope this isn't how you were treated yourself, because it's really bad. REALLY. BAD.
> 
> There, someone had to say it.
> 
> Good night,
> 
> Andre


If, and thinking back over the years I've been around this forum, the main issue causing such indignation and arguments here is: not the critisism but the way in which it has been worded. Hell mend us all.


----------



## creativeforge

rayinstirling said:


> If, and thinking back over the years I've been around this forum, the main issue causing such indignation and arguments here is: not the critisism but the way in which it has been worded. Hell mend us all.



Don't words matter? Still, it's not about the words chosen, but about the target and purpose of the words. When you post something asking for feedback and it results in personal attacks instead of talking about the music, then yes, I think there is a failure to communicate, and it seems many people still need to process this...


----------



## rayinstirling

creativeforge said:


> Don't words matter? Still, it's not about the words chosen, but about the target and purpose of the words. When you post something asking for feedback and it results in personal attacks instead of talking about the music, then yes, I think there is a failure to communicate, and it seems many people still need to process this...


No they don't! If they don't like it, they can simply ignore it. Stop being the policeman looking after others sensitivities. If we can't stand the heat we can simply stay off the net.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

@Andre, actually now that you mention it ... I remember that. I recall reading that diatribe and I thinking: wow, where did that come from. People like that actually exist? It all makes sense now, of course.

Just shows that the whole "I'm so passionate about music" thing is BS from a mere pathological narcissist. And as it goes, those people will find there sycopants here and there, as well as applauders from the peanut gallery.


----------



## Baron Greuner

re-peat said:


> … in Kenny’s world, no prospect of another “Kind Of Blue” is there?
> 
> _



I had to just re-order the CD. Someone very kindly stole my copy from the car. They left the car, but stole Kind of Blue. Go figure.


----------



## Baron Greuner

Maybe it was because it's a VW and didn't want an issue with the forthcoming legal action.


----------



## Morodiene

I read a bit of the original thread cached and most of this thread. I'm new to this forum, but not to forums in general. On other forums, there are moderators who step in when things like this happen before it gets too far. Sometimes people get banned, despite having knowledge of the subject matter. Sometimes the ban is temporary until they cool off. I think this should have been handled by the moderators sooner to keep things civil.

I had a teacher who couldn't teach his way out of a paper bag (a great teacher must be able to empathize) and yet he was extremely knowledgable. So, I learned from him what I could learn, and then ended things. I would have preferred to support him in his efforts and refer new students to him, but in all good conscience I couldn't tolerate more of that abuse nor put someone else through it. Anyways, he would post on forums and say all sorts of inflammatory language, and you'd have to sift through that to get at the knowledge underneath.

Is it _necessary_ to offer critiques in this way? I certainly think one can state criticisms while respecting the person being criticized - especially when they are humble as Orcel appeared to be and not pretentious. While I couldn't hear the mock-up he did, even if it was horrendous, I don't think he wanted it to be that way. And honestly, some people aren't talented at really hearing things. I can hear a singer and know exactly what's wrong with their technique right away because I've trained my ears in that way for many years. But I'm pretty bad at mixing, because I haven't done much of it yet. So I personally give some latitude to a beginner, because we've all been there to some degree or another. Just because someone is less talented than you doesn't mean they don't want to get better.

Is it _helpful_ to learn in an abusive setting? I personally don't agree with putting up barriers to students or anyone wanting to learn. The subject is usually hard enough on its own, no need to pile on and expect them to just accept it.


----------



## re-peat

creativeforge said:


> (...) only drunken insults, (...) the epitome of narcissism, (...) your inane putrefied comments, (...)


See that, *Jimmy*? The anti-rudeness brigade at its best. The flagbearers of decency, civility and respect at their most well-behaved.
The fine upstanding fellow members who condemn 'personal insults' and consider themselves qualified to teach the rest of us about good manners, in full fettle.

Remarkable lot, aren't they?
(By the way, if you're asking where the diatribes — if that is _le mot juste_ anyway — come from: people pretentious and shameless enough to exhibit their incompetence in public, that's where.)

And *André*, forgive me, but it was a little more than just "the colours" which I didn't like. I think you'll find it was just about _everything_ and it was all described with a precision and a detail which I highly doubt _an inane drunkard_ would be capable of. (By the way, I happen to be http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/PDRMediaPlayerArt/ (a graphic designer) as well. I only mention this to indicate that my misgivings about V.I.'s facelift weren't the ludicrous, unfounded ramblings you'd have liked them to be, but actually come from a place of some experience and, if I may say so myself, 2 decades of rather successful professional activity.) But let's not go there again, shall we? We have enough of your twistings-of-the-truth and drama-queen fabrications on our hands as it is already.

Nor is this discussion helped in any way if you now also start to assume to know what Mr. Zimmer did or didn't think. A little presumptuous there, aren't we? Let's maybe stick to what was actually written. If, for example, you have any proof to submit which shows that the 100% wasn't really actually the full 100%, why not come out with it? Save us all from a lot of tedious posts and, in your case, embarrassement.

_


----------



## Baron Greuner

NoamL said:


> Well, in a way he was the zeroth Beatle.



Whoa! I only just caught this one.

Zeroth!!!!!

Even Jerome doesn't use words like that. I had to look it up.


----------



## rottoy

re-peat said:


> See that, *Jimmy*? The anti-rudeness brigade at its best. The flagbearers of decency, civility and respect at their most well-behaved.
> The fine upstanding fellow members who condemn 'personal insults' and consider themselves qualified to teach the rest of us about good manners, in full fettle.
> 
> Remarkable lot, aren't they?
> (By the way, if you're asking where the diatribes — if that is _le mot juste_ anyway — come from: people pretentious and shameless enough to exhibit their incompetence in public, that's where.)
> 
> And *André*, forgive me, but it was a little more than just "the colours" which I didn't like. I think you'll find it was just about _everything_ and it was all described with a precision and a detail which I highly doubt _an inane drunkard_ would be capable of. (By the way, I happen to be http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/PDRMediaPlayerArt/ (a graphic designer) as well. I only mention this to indicate that my misgivings about V.I.'s facelift weren't the ludicrous, unfounded ramblings you'd have liked them to be, but actually come from a place of some experience and, if I may say so myself, 2 decades of rather successful professional activity.) But let's not go there again, shall we? We have enough of your twistings-of-the-truth and drama-queen fabrications on our hands as it is already.
> 
> Nor is this discussion helped in any way if you now also start to assume to know what Mr. Zimmer did or didn't think. A little presumptuous there, aren't we? Let's maybe stick to what was actually written. If, for example, you have any proof to submit which shows that the 100% wasn't really actually the full 100%, why not come out with it? Save us all from a lot of tedious posts and, in your case, embarrassement.
> 
> _


Do us all a favour and save your self-absorbed expertise for your designated therapist.


----------



## AlexandreSafi

This place needs me! 

There's this (The Method):


& there's this (The Philosophy):



Debate?


----------



## Michael K. Bain

I don't understand how anyone can defend the use of personal insults and name-calling when critiquing music.

Some folks say "if you can't stand criticism, you shouldn't post your music". While that may be true, it is still not an explanation as to why it is okay to insult people.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Imagine what happens when Piet goes to a restaurant and something's not to his liking. Oh boy.  But hey, he probably happens to be an experienced and accomplished chef as well, among other things.

In Vino Dementia!


----------



## prodigalson

re-peat said:


> But you buy all that pseudo-profound self-improvement twaddle which he’s selling, I take it?



Well, actually I have the emotional and mental capacity to understand the nuances and subtleties of what this master musicians point truly was as it relates to the pursuit of music. Unlike you, I don't live in a black and white, all or nothing world and I understand that having the perspective to say that music doesn't matter on one hand doesn't eliminate passion, dedication and love on the other. Understanding that music doesn't matter is not the same as not CARING about music, it is a way to free yourself to enjoy and love the pursuit of music again and, in turn, write your masterpiece. The irony here is that if you had truly read the book and it's clear you haven't (though arrogant enough to tell me I didn't understand it) you would see that the goal of his writing is actually to help musicians IMPROVE at their instruments and art form not to try to tell them that it's OK to be mediocre or not to try to create anything. The concept is a tad more nuanced than that. And it works.

I studied with a great piano teacher in NYC, Madeline Bruser, who taught a very similar concept (and herself wrote a best selling book called The Art of Practicing.) It is no exaggeration that I improved faster than I ever had before by being kind to myself and finding the joy in music through effortless practicing. Through her and Kenny Werner's concepts I was able to conquer Rachmaninovs 2nd and others in a way I never had.

For the record, I never said that mediocrity is OK or that noone should try to create anything either. I was simply trying bring some levity and perspective to a very toxic affair by suggesting everyone just relax and go enjoy life for a while, you included.

It is only perspective, Piet. Nothing more, nothing less. This perspective helps me love music. It helps me to be a better musician and a better human being. It allows me to be compassionate, kind, generous and a truly happy person...

...maybe you should try it some time.


----------



## Jerome Vonhogen

Baron Greuner said:


> NoamL said: "_Matthew Locke (...) in a way he was the zeroth Beatle."_
> 
> Zeroth!!!!!
> 
> Even Jerome doesn't use words like that. I had to look it up.


 

No, but I guess I could try... How about:

I'd rather be the 'zeroth' Beatle than the 'odd' one out. 

- Jerome Vonhögen


----------



## re-peat

prodigalson said:


> (...) I was simply trying bring some levity and perspective to a very toxic affair by suggesting everyone just relax and go enjoy life for a while, you included. It is only perspective, Piet. Nothing more, nothing less. This perspective helps me love music. It helps me to be a better musician and a better human being.(...)


Good for you, Prodigal. And I mean that sincerely. Good to hear that you’re able to distill some very postive things out of that line of thinking, and it’s certainly not my place to question their validity for you personally, but to me, those kind of philosophies don’t appeal at all.

By the way, I’m enjoying life to the fullest these days. But thanks for the consideration!

_


----------



## JohnG

I agree with the implication of Alexandre Safi's post of the "good job" video from Whiplash. Two of the most insidious, corrosive words possible, although "good boy" is pretty bad too.

When I saw Whiplash I kept thinking that the "mean teacher" did nothing -- zero -- that isn't common in football coaches in the USA. While not advocating / approving / condoning / encouraging, I think it's fair to say that performance and winning are all that matters in that arena to most. And by "most," I'm including spectators, alumni, students, and others who maybe ought to know better. Everyone knows today about the concussions, and yet football seems to be as popular as ever. Winning in particular.

In some situations, performance and winning are the ONLY things. In others, being kind dominates. This disagreement seems to swing on which arena we're in on v.i. control -- performance is the _sine qua non_, or being friendly and encouraging dominate. While I can imagine that some will argue, "you can say it more nicely," and I didn't ever see the original posts so I can't be sure, I'd say some things don't get through if they are buffered and padded. 

It's also true that one man's unforgivable insult is another's commonplace; where I grew up, the following sentence constitutes a heated disagreement: "Well, I'm not sure I see it quite the same way."

I have friends who hear my works in progress. Some crush me, some say "good job." I value the ones who rip it up a lot more than "good job." Those people, while well meaning, don't help.

Is this a peculiar USA disease? Focus on winning, I mean. I don't think so. I believe people are alarmingly attracted to audacity, energy, and success, even when it takes the most horrific forms. The 20th century supplies plenty of examples, and there are plenty more today if you look around.

So, was the response "too mean?" I don't know because I never read it, but I'd rather someone passionate and knowledgeable took the time to set me straight than just "made nice."


----------



## rottoy

re-peat said:


> By the way, I’m enjoying life to the fullest these days. But thanks for the consideration!
> _


It must be exhilarating to be so bereft of social competence.

I found you a substitute for actual human contact 
that I'm sure you will find MORE than adequate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror


----------



## creativeforge

rayinstirling said:


> Sad, I've just wasted half an hour of my life reading through this reposted thread.
> No wonder I seldom look in here now.
> 
> No one should post anything online if unwilling to accept critisism whether constructive or not.
> Take it or leave.
> The real stirrers are those criticising the critics.



There are good reasons why people are criticising one (1) so-called 'criticizer.' And it has nothing to do with music. The sad part is that many want to give him a pass "because he knows so much." I wish people who truly like him wouldn't give up on him but have the courage to speak the truth in love. 

_"Men profess to be lovers of music, but for the most part they give no evidence in their opinions and lives that they have heard it."_ - Henry David Thoreau

Happy day,

Andre


----------



## prodigalson

re-peat said:


> Good for you, Prodigal. And I mean that sincerely. Good to hear that you’re able to distill some very postive things out of that line of thinking, and it’s certainly not my place to question their validity for you personally, but to me, those kind of philosophies don’t appeal at all.
> 
> _



Horses for courses my good man!


----------



## Baron Greuner

JohnG said:


> So, was the response "too mean?" I don't know because I never read it, but I'd rather someone passionate and knowledgeable took the time to set me straight than just "made nice."



You mean the original response on the original thread John?

I think words like 'mean' are way too subjective. Do I think it was harsh - yes. Then again I said something innocuous to Cyril, like put it down to tired wrists or some such thing. This was an attempt to balance out any harsher issues Cyril might have felt based on the overall timbre of the conversation, realising that his English might not allow for certain nuances that Piet and Hans have learned through consistent English speaking.
Unfortunately that didn't seem to help although Cyril acknowledged it through the infamous 'like' button we have here. But alas, Cyril capitulated. Unnecessarily imo. 

When I was learning to play at around age 10, the music teacher wrapped your knuckles with a ruler after around 6 months of practice. Another exercise that came later was to read a book out loud placed on the music stand, as you played a piece from memory at the same time. Was this mean? Not in any way and I still regard old Mr Stone as the best music teacher anyone could wish for.

What I cannot understand, is the constant attacks on members here, for what is merely a point of view taken on a mock up. The language was harsh, yes.
But then again, so is getting smacked on the knuckles constantly when your 10 years old. It's nothing.


----------



## rottoy

creativeforge said:


> There are good reasons why people are criticising one (1) so-called 'criticizer.' And it has nothing to do with music. The sad part is that many want to give him a pass "because he knows so much." I wish people who truly like him wouldn't give up on him but have the courage to speak the truth in love.
> 
> _"Men profess to be lovers of music, but for the most part they give no evidence in their opinions and lives that they have heard it."_ - Henry David Thoreau
> 
> Happy day,
> 
> Andre


Yes, it would be refreshing to get this thread back on track.
But it is far too tempting to resign civility and resort to mudslinging as Piet continues pushing buttons.


----------



## Alatar

JohnG said:


> So, was the response "too mean?" I don't know because I never read it, but I'd rather someone passionate and knowledgeable took the time to set me straight than just "made nice."



Well: Re-Peat said that Orcels music was "vulgar". He called him an "amoeba" and said he does produce "offensive diarrea".


----------



## creativeforge

re-peat said:


> See that, *Jimmy*? The anti-rudeness brigade at its best. The flagbearers of decency, civility and respect at their most well-behaved.
> The fine upstanding fellow members who condemn 'personal insults' and consider themselves qualified to teach the rest of us about good manners, in full fettle.
> 
> Remarkable lot, aren't they?
> (By the way, if you're asking where the diatribes — if that is _le mot juste_ anyway — come from: people pretentious and shameless enough to exhibit their incompetence in public, that's where.)
> 
> And *André*, forgive me, but it was a little more than just "the colours" which I didn't like. I think you'll find it was just about _everything_ and it was all described with a precision and a detail which I highly doubt _an inane drunkard_ would be capable of. (By the way, I happen to be http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/PDRMediaPlayerArt/ (a graphic designer) as well. I only mention this to indicate that my misgivings about V.I.'s facelift weren't the ludicrous, unfounded ramblings you'd have liked them to be, but actually come from a place of some experience and, if I may say so myself, 2 decades of rather successful professional activity.) But let's not go there again, shall we? We have enough of your twistings-of-the-truth and drama-queen fabrications on our hands as it is already.
> 
> Nor is this discussion helped in any way if you now also start to assume to know what Mr. Zimmer did or didn't think. A little presumptuous there, aren't we? Let's maybe stick to what was actually written. If, for example, you have any proof to submit which shows that the 100% wasn't really actually the full 100%, why not come out with it? Save us all from a lot of tedious posts and, in your case, embarrassement.
> 
> _



Again missing the point, Piet. I wonder if truly you can't see, or if it is intentional. Denial is a powerful thing.

I can totally appreciate your talent, but this was never about talent, Piet, was it? It never "just" about talent. Or being "right." Maybe it's about how you use your talent as an excuse.

Many modifications were made to the forum look and feel, based on a few members who offered comments and requests. You're the only one however who crossed the line of decency with totally uncalled-for dehumanizing personal attacks.

Trying to impose your artistic direction? Fail. I even wrote you privately a couple times, to invite you, and a couple other "professional designers" to contribute, but there too: fail. Total silence. Throw a stink bomb and watch people react? Hmmm...

But my employer is happy - I'm happy. I was able to articulate his vision into a new incarnation - not so bad for an old guy with no education or formal training, who had to reboot his whole life twice, and really getting no hands-on help from anyone to convert VIC from a deprecated platform to this one.

I love music, I love creative design. I also love to help people move forward and be encouraged to pursue their passion, not based on my technical knowledge - which is quite limited - but based on some things I've learned from life.

What is success? When you don't have the blessing of being really really really good at something (professional success), maybe you focus on doing your very best, trying to surpass your limitations, all the while focusing on being a decent person. 

Happy trails,

Andre

p.s. I said I doubt Hans agreed 100% with the nasty verbiage you used with Cyril. I still doubt it.


----------



## creativeforge

rottoy said:


> Yes, it would be refreshing to get this thread back on track.
> But it is far too tempting to resign civility and resort to mudslinging as Piet continues pushing buttons.



Check: http://vi-control.net/community/threads/elgar-test-take-2.50904/


----------



## rottoy

creativeforge said:


> Check: http://vi-control.net/community/threads/elgar-test-take-2.50904/


Cheers!


----------



## Morodiene

JohnG said:


> I agree with the implication of Alexandre Safi's post of the "good job" video from Whiplash. Two of the most insidious, corrosive words possible, although "good boy" is pretty bad too.
> 
> When I saw Whiplash I kept thinking that the "mean teacher" did nothing -- zero -- that isn't common in football coaches in the USA. While not advocating / approving / condoning / encouraging, I think it's fair to say that performance and winning are all that matters in that arena to most. And by "most," I'm including spectators, alumni, students, and others who maybe ought to know better. Everyone knows today about the concussions, and yet football seems to be as popular as ever. Winning in particular.
> 
> In some situations, performance and winning are the ONLY things. In others, being kind dominates. This disagreement seems to swing on which arena we're in on v.i. control -- performance is the _sine qua non_, or being friendly and encouraging dominate. While I can imagine that some will argue, "you can say it more nicely," and I didn't ever see the original posts so I can't be sure, I'd say some things don't get through if they are buffered and padded.
> 
> It's also true that one man's unforgivable insult is another's commonplace; where I grew up, the following sentence constitutes a heated disagreement: "Well, I'm not sure I see it quite the same way."
> 
> I have friends who hear my works in progress. Some crush me, some say "good job." I value the ones who rip it up a lot more than "good job." Those people, while well meaning, don't help.
> 
> Is this a peculiar USA disease? Focus on winning, I mean. I don't think so. I believe people are alarmingly attracted to audacity, energy, and success, even when it takes the most horrific forms. The 20th century supplies plenty of examples, and there are plenty more today if you look around.
> 
> So, was the response "too mean?" I don't know because I never read it, but I'd rather someone passionate and knowledgeable took the time to set me straight than just "made nice."



But see, I'm not advocating simply saying "good job." One can critique in such as way that is respectful to the person. You can totally bash a person's work, and do so without bashing the person without name-calling and things that don't bring anything to the table but the basher's ego.

Being a football coach talking to a player is very different from a creative process like music, so the comparison doesn't really apply here, IMO. I always speak plainly to my students. They get praise when they've done something to earn it, and just showing up isn't enough for that. But they always know that whatever I tell them is the truth. If I started hurling ad hominem attacks at them along with elements of factual information, I don't see how that tactic is a good idea. What are they to believe? What are they to trust? And what would be my motive for doing so?


----------



## AlexandreSafi

*☯*

Personally I believe in the hard obvious art of balance, mastering the opposites, no more no less, it requires no shortcuts of energy, logic and (self-)communication unfortunately, but it's usually the wisest...

In the end, it's about one thing: Persuasion
As Goethe said, neither side should wish for the other to change, it's probably too big, each of us too (rightfully) individual, in this world or any time of social progress for that...
You have somehow to find a way to be as kind as witty...
As authoritarian, as empathetic..
To Mix Pleasure with Pain...
Not to suffer fools gladly, by each opposing "sideview" I mean, is the surest way towards accomplishing just that...
I also don't believe in the word "good" nor "bad", yes I've used them on many occasions, but the 1st one feels complacent or restrained to me, the 2nd one feels self-defeating or discouraging to me as well because of our (I believe) optimistic nature, I'm much more interested in saying and going by "not great enough", there it feels both scary & inspiring, both +/- enough so that one feels halfway and catch up through a fight against dualism and do something about it, but it will most easily feel that way to someone who's had a life which built him/her to care that way...
Here, if you want get through the maze of unpredictable diversity, you gotta value strategy to a such high standard that eventually nobody can blame/love you for being one thing +/- more than the other -/+...

It's Seduction, Persuasion, Influence, ultimately for good...
Then add some charm and you can even insult anyone without offending them, but you have to charm them first...

But still, dualism by itself, the cause of conflicts so endless it is a disease for the mind...
It's a lost philosophical & psychological hard-earned craft that "balance" is...
A Fact of existence...
And I'm only discovering it now, as I'm finishing typing...


*☯*

-A.-


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Alexandre, Piet should definitely have less of what he's drinking, and have more of what you're smoking.


----------



## AlexandreSafi

How dare you?! 
-A.-


----------



## re-peat

Baron Greuner said:


> Do I think it was harsh - yes.


Harsh? Sure it was. Mr. Zimmer and myself used a few words I suppose no one likes to hear his or her work described with, and I’ll admit I went a touch further when commenting on the type of musician that doesn’t fit within my frame of what I feel and hope any self-respecting musician would and should aspire to. Wrong? Arrogant? Pretentious? Presumptuous? Possibly. But … _evil_? Certainly not.

See, contrary to what’s been an ongoing and entirely faulty and unjust suggestion in this thread (see Alatar’s post above for the latest manifestion of this dishonesty), I only addressed Cyril directly once, in that first post of mine (quoted in full by André, some pages ago). All my other, apparently unpleasant, comments referred to a breed of musician — of which Cyril, at least in his capacity as a mock-up-er of Elgar, was, sadly, a very representative exponent — and to the sort of musical activity which I abhor: the negligent, lazy, uninformed and complacent kind, devoid of any pride and devoid of any desire to deliver good work.

But Cyril, the composer, was never under scrutiny or discussion, so now suggesting that I called *his* music ‘vulgar’ is a blatant lie. Never called him an amoeba either, for the record. Another lie. I referred to ANYONE, messing so thoughtlessly and unmusically with the work of a great composer (like Elgar), as ‘musical amoebas’. A totally accurate description, I still think.

To tamper with the work of a great composer — a musician who has used his talent and his craft to reach levels of musical power and beauty, in ways we all can learn from for the rest of our lives —, in that half-arsed, gratuitous, totally ignorant, uncreative and unbelievably careless way as was displayed in those mock-ups posted (not just Cyril's) … I’m sorry, but I find that unacceptable. I really, really do. And I honestly believe that any self-respecting community of musicians and/or people who love music, should have risen as one and have said: “Sorry, but this just won’t do. This is simply too bad. Come back when your work shows at least the determination to do something good with the music you’re mocking up.”

As it turned out, there were only two who rose. (And a few more who nodded in approval of what we said.)

But, let’s be honest, all of this has long stopped to be about music, hasn’t it? If it ever was about music to begin with for most here. (Of course, it wasn’t.) This is simply yet another sick exhibition of V.I. self-righteous lynching mob at its most fascist, using every low, cheap and dishonest trick they can think of to make it appear as if I were Satan himself.

- - - -

André,

I am sorry, but I’m afraid I remain of the opinion that you did a bad job with the redesign of V.I. (for all the reasons extensively explained in my post on the matter.) And talent (I’m using the word as a kind of pars pro toto for things like: understanding what the challenge/task requires, a clear definition of one’s goals, flair for typography, lay-out, an eye for visual composition and detail, etc …) does, I’m afraid, enter very much into it. Truly sorry, but I can only see it as I see it.
But never mind. If the majority is happy with the results, so be it. Like I said, let’s draw a line under all of that. Even though I personally preferred it the way it was before, V.I. is still a great forum and a good place to be.

Oh, and the reason I never replied to your invitiation — an intiative which I honestly appreciate — is probably because my comments on your work got me instantly banned.

I noticed I still have a few other unreplied-to messages in my in-box, dating from that same period. Talking about the PM-system: is that ever going to get some additional seeing-to, if I may ask? Because my message-boxes are, frankly, in complete ruins, and only contain small bits of the rather large collection they amounted to before the v2 update. (And that is a bit of a pity as I lost quite a number of, to me valuable, communications.) Thanks in advance for anything that’s possible to improve the current situation.

_


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## rottoy

re-peat said:


> This is simply yet another sick exhibition of V.I. self-righteous lynching mob at its most fascist, using every low, cheap and dishonest trick they can think of to make it appear as if I were Satan himself.
> _


I think you're doing just fine embarrassing yourself without help
from the "V.I. self-righteous lynching mob".


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## Rodney Money

My popcorn is delicious.


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## germancomponist

Try again, looking at the world from a different perspective!


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## ysnyvz

germancomponist said:


> Try again, looking at the world from a different perspective!


From perspective of physics, there are only 2 real pieces. So they are both wrong like both sides of this discussion


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## mpalenik

ysnyvz said:


> From perspective of physics, there are only 2 real pieces. So they are both wrong like both sides of this discussion



Eh? The lines form a manifold with a rank 10 h1 homology class, if I'm counting right.


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## ysnyvz

mpalenik said:


> Eh? The lines form a manifold with a rank 10 h1 homology class, if I'm counting right.


When you look carefully, you'll see the ones at hard left and right are like wood pieces:





So the lines in middle don't form a piece. Point of caricature is that only audience is looking from right perspective and when you're not looking from right perspective, your argument is invalid no matter how much you yell.


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## Jerome Vonhogen

germancomponist said:


> (...) looking at the world from a different perspective!


 

I get the feeling that this could finally bring some peace to our VI-community ... 

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## creativeforge

re-peat said:


> André,
> 
> I am sorry, but I’m afraid I remain of the opinion that you did a bad job with the redesign of V.I. (for all the reasons extensively explained in my post on the matter.) And talent (I’m using the word as a kind of pars pro toto for things like: understanding what the challenge/task requires, a clear definition of one’s goals, flair for typography, lay-out, an eye for visual composition and detail, etc …) does, I’m afraid, enter very much into it. Truly sorry, but I can only see it as I see it.
> But never mind. If the majority is happy with the results, so be it. Like I said, let’s draw a line under all of that. Even though I personally preferred it the way it was before, V.I. is still a great forum and a good place to be.
> 
> Oh, and the reason I never replied to your invitiation — an intiative which I honestly appreciate — is probably because my comments on your work got me instantly banned.
> 
> I noticed I still have a few other unreplied-to messages in my in-box, dating from that same period. Talking about the PM-system: is that ever going to get some additional seeing-to, if I may ask? Because my message-boxes are, frankly, in complete ruins, and only contain small bits of the rather large collection they amounted to before the v2 update. (And that is a bit of a pity as I lost quite a number of, to me valuable, communications.) Thanks in advance for anything that’s possible to improve the current situation.
> _



Piet,
-> line ----------------------------- <-​
I am going to be moving this to the OT section now. The line has been drawn for me, but whenever I become aware that the same kind of thing is done to someone else, and that the members doing the verbal attacks keep pushing through the threads, oblivious to the damage done to others because they tunnel vision on "I'm right," I get triggered.

At one time, I did respond to the constructive criticisms this way:

_"I share your conviction that the site could be so much more, if the right people with the right expertise and talent could contribute.

Let's bring the site to an even better format, break it free from the limitations of my own inadequacies. 

However, one of the key thing for me is to be able to work as a team, in collaboration. I would gladly consider such a collaborative effort. There is so much I don't know still, and could learn from professionals of the trade. And to know that Frederick would be even happier with the results, seeing members and developers loving to use it every day and share it? That is the goal, right?" _​
But there was no follow-through, so I kept going and working from suggestions to downsize the bombastic first release, without losing the uniqueness and a sense of cohesion. Everything was basically Frederick's final decision, and my interpretation of what needed to be done to dial down the interface.

I'm aware that professional teams follow a specific methodology. It must make their lives and work so much simpler. I'm more of a hands-on guy. I paid out of pocket for professional services here and there, but the results were really not satisfactory - there was no "life" in the design, addons didn't work as advertised, themes were iffy for modifications, etc.

There were consultations and brainstorming between myself and Frederick and one other person, who ended up doing strictly conversion and server stuff at the very beginning. There were some guidelines to follow, but creative freedom was also given to me explore and create something new, different, but reflecting Frederick's vision, while trying to tame a totally new software which most people don't dare asking too much from.

I'll still be making custom websites from time to time. And I'll still welcome constructive criticisms. Maybe you can learn to get to the point and not turn them into personal attacks. I don't think people need to be rudely told they don't measure up to someone else's vision of perfection, but they certainly need to be helped and encouraged to reach for that elusive perfection. Being able to analyse a piece of music with an extraordinary accuracy must be awesome. Finding others with whom you can talk shop at an elevated level of workmanship must also be awesome. 

But when we act and talk as if we are tone deaf to the soul of others, there is no greatness in that. And I have been guilty of this too, I'm sure, but it's something I try not to leave uncorrected.

-> line ----------------------------- <-​
As for the PMs before the conversion to 2.0, many are mis-ordered on the new architecture, and there was no budget to pay for a specialist to retrieve them safely in order without breaking anything. They may appear differently now, each reply may show as a new conversation item. It would be a matter of reconstituting them on your end. All new PMs should work properly, though.

Regards,

Andre


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## Nick Batzdorf

Ladies and Gentlemen, we now have eight reports to moderators about this thread.

Could you please moderate yourselves from here on out? None of us really wants to censor the forum.

There's no particular rule against brawling, but it's distasteful. Attacking other members is against the rules, and that line is getting crossed.

Decorum!


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## Nick Batzdorf

And calling Piet names is over that line.

By the way, I loved Whiplash.

There was a Q&A with the director and actors after the screening we went to. Someone asked J.K. Simmons what attracted him to the character.

Without missing a beat, he said, "Why, his looks, of course."


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## Sebastianmu

re-peat said:


> See, contrary to what’s been an ongoing and entirely faulty and unjust suggestion in this thread (see Alatar’s post above for the latest manifestion of this dishonesty), I only addressed Cyril directly once, in that first post of mine.
> _


What about "Orcelian Fungus", Piet? Is it an entirely faulty and unjust suggestion that this phrase was addressing Cyril in a somewhat direct way? For me, it was definitely the sad pinnacle of your efforts of finding the most demeaning expressions to make clear you didn't appreciate the mock up.


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## Nick Batzdorf

It truly doesn't matter.

It truly doesn't matter.

It truly doesn't matter.


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## Sebastianmu

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It truly doesn't matter.
> 
> It truly doesn't matter.
> 
> It truly doesn't matter.


Sorry, Nick, I wrote it before I saw your posts.


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## sleepy hollow

Sebastianmu said:


> I wrote it before I saw your posts


Hipster!


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## creativeforge

Nick Batzdorf said:


> And calling Piet names is over that line.



EDIT: Of course, name-calling should be frowned upon with anyone.


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## Jimmy Hellfire

Nick Batzdorf said:


> And calling Piet names is over that line.



My, God forbid!


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## chimuelo

As a working performer of 40 years who survived the sling and arrows of several Classical Jury's, got smoked by Headliners or Pianists sitting in on my gear and kicking my ass like Ray Kennedy Monty Alexander or Taz DiGrigorrio.
I've learned criticism is vital and regardless of the direction that leads, the fact you are criticized means you've been accepted.
Whether or not you can survive is totally up to you.
If Orcel has the right stuff he'll be back.
If he allows this to interfere with his mental well being he'll thank VIC years down the road for saving him from decades of brutal rejection which btw, I truly enjoy.
When folks stop talking you obviously weren't worth the time of day.


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## creativeforge

Apples and oranges, chimuelo...


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## chimuelo

Is that like Tomaytos or Tomahtos?


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## creativeforge

It could be:
"If I understand you correctly you're saying this. If so, my reply would be such and such. If not, could you maybe explain?"


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## chimuelo

I've heard the slogan for years never fully grasping the true meaning.

I use tomayto and tomahto to emphasize how a certain food group has multiple pronunciations.

So I am confused. If I hand someone an orange and tell them to eat this Apple, then they eat this Apple I call an orange that it must be acceptable since both are different but of the same food group....


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## creativeforge

A forum is generally 100% made of flawed people who don't have the right stuff for a number of reasons and in a number of situations, but we still grow and evolve. Handling criticism was never the question in this instance. It's a heart thing...

I believe we are the sum of our parts...


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## chimuelo

So Apples and Oranges means the handling of criticism and spirited criticism are both fruits but having different flavors.
Glad I learned something.
Downloading 200GBs of samples leaves me with spare time.
I actually read the entire thread.
What a waste of time.
I compare it to having sex for the wrong reason making my dick angry at me.
So learning more slang properly was rewarding.


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## creativeforge

Some people hear a drum... 
Others hear the drum player...
Others hear when the drummer is out of sync...
Others hear if anything on the drum is out of tune.


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## Hannes_F

Coming back from vacation ... I want to go there again 
Can anybody teach me how I can read 'that other thread' in 'the cache'?


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## emid

Hannes_F said:


> Can anybody teach me how I can read 'that other thread' in 'the cache'?



http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...st-elgar-too.50808/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ar-too.50808/page-2+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ar-too.50808/page-3+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ar-too.50808/page-4+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ar-too.50808/page-5+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Welcome back


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## KEnK

chimuelo said:


> I actually read the entire thread.
> What a waste of time.


Chim-
If only you had chimed in on page 7 or so,
then maybe the thread would've sensibly ended much sooner than now.

my 2 cents (or is it sense?)
k


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## Hannes_F

Thanks emid. Reading that thread too and listening to the mockups is necessary to understand this one imo.


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## KEnK

Hey- I just re-read the original thread too (even though I saw it the first time)
To me reading it again demonstrates the level of over-reaction.
Uh oh! What'd I say!!??
Now we'll have to start the whole thing all over again

k


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## emid

Hannes_F said:


> Thanks emid. Reading that thread too and listening to the mockups is necessary to understand this one imo.



No problem, I was first reluctant to post the links Hannes thinking it will unnecessarily flare things up. Now making it clear that it is to make an informed decision only. Links are easy to search in google anyway...


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## creativeforge

Thank God for "thinking people..."


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## rottoy

So which piece shall be tackled next for a mockup?


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## NYC Composer

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Another thing that I also observed here is that senile stubbornness really is a thing. That's not to be disregarded.


::::raises hand and lowers it, looking around uncertainly:::


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## NYC Composer

rayinstirling said:


> No they don't! If they don't like it, they can simply ignore it. Stop being the policeman looking after others sensitivities. If we can't stand the heat we can simply stay off the net.



Hey Ray-what if I can take the heat just fine but don't particularly like it or find it to be necessary to accomplish a goal? Can I comment on that? (I like to check with you on matters of proper carriage and comportment.)


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## creativeforge

rayinstirling said:


> No they don't! If they don't like it, they can simply ignore it. Stop being the policeman looking after others sensitivities. If we can't stand the heat we can simply stay off the net.



I hate chaos, and confusion, I hate ugliness and defilement. This is a social place where I happen to hang out from time to time. I like it. Most of the times. And I care when one of my fellow members gets run over for absolutely no reason, and I have to clean up his things after the fact.

"The heat" is about the courage to be vulnerable, the strength to admit we may be wrong, the humility to change and treat others like we want to be treated.

If words didn't matter, music wouldn't matter either.

Peace


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## Sebastianmu

“Everything has been said already, but not yet _by_ everyone.”


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## Baron Greuner

NYC Composer said:


> ::::raises hand and lowers it, looking around uncertainly:::



(in my very best southern drawl)
Jimmy really is a firecrakcer ain't he? Jimmy you lay off that firewater there boy! That there's firewater that is!


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## rottoy

We should do mockups of re-peat's work next, if anyone can find it in the ancient, decrepit Tibetan library where the 78's are stored. Anyone want to volunteer for an expedition?

I'll bring crackers, cheese and wine.


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## Morodiene

I heard something on the radio yesterday that I feel pertains directly to this and all artistic pursuits. It states that we learn more from positive reinforcement/encouragement than from discouragement. I know that when I taught Kindermusik, it was imperative that we tell students _what_ to do vs. _what not_ to do. If you tell Jimmy to "stop running," well then he may be confused and thinking that jogging slowly may be OK. Telling him to "use his walking feet" is very clear, direct, and will elicit a better response. Then when he does as you say, congratulating him on following directions will pretty much ensure that he will desire to do that behavior again. This radio show wasn't talking in terms of children necessarily, but as adults as well.

Essentially, by telling a person what to do (the solution) rather than focusing what's wrong about it (the problem), more will be learned by the other person.

Now, of course, if certain persons are not interesting in teaching, that's different. There is not a shortage of critics in the world. Some people grew up with that in their lives and that's all they know how to relate. Much of it comes from their own fears of being inadequate. I'll leave that for the individual to decide their motives and reasons for speaking in that way.


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## creativeforge

Morodiene said:


> Some people grew up with that in their lives and that's all they know how to relate. Much of it comes from their own fears of being inadequate. I'll leave that for the individual to decide their motives and reasons for speaking in that way.



+1


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## rottoy

creativeforge said:


> You could simply become a member of this other forum (where he is moderator) (edited by poster)
> 
> Obviously the man knows how to behave and keep the thing about the thing and be candid (here, his own work is in play), and he can be well articulated and coherent. I just don't get why he feels the urge to flame people so viciously here, on VIC. It feels disingenuous to me. And for this, I don't think he should be taken seriously in those instances, unless he corrects his trajectory, that is...
> 
> WHY THIS CONVERSATION IS IMPORTANT (imho)
> 
> Because of how many members have been hurt and left VIC because of clashes with him.
> 
> Because of how it hijacks the otherwise positive energies that have made VIC a "sought after" forum.
> 
> Because we can help pull back the personal attacks as a community, and redirect the tone of such conversations when we see it derail into chaos and become hurtful for people.
> 
> Because there is no music without musicians, so to care about music we also should make it about the musicians, and be civil as best we can. And we can.


I agree with your sentiments.
I wasn't merely being sardonic in my latest post, I was genuinely curious about the man's work.
Will look into that thread, thanks!


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## Jimmy Hellfire

Morodiene said:


> If you tell Jimmy to "stop running,"



Don't tell me what to do!


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## Morodiene

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Don't tell me what to do!


Hah, see? Negative doesn't work well


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## Jimmy Hellfire

creativeforge said:


> this other forum (*where he is moderator*)



My reaction after reading this:


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## NYC Composer

...or you could look up old threads and find some seriously interesting, incredibly well produced music.

As another moderator on "this other forum" (something I have not mentioned here and would never have mentioned had you not brought it up) I'd like to say this-though Piet and I disagree (sometimes to an extreme) on matters of style and forceful language, I consider him my friend, and I have great admiration for his abilities and the value he brings to music discussions, as do quite a few others.

I think it's probably time to drop this, don't you? Righteous indignation expressed over and over can start to look like its own form of bullying after a while. Perhaps it's a tad unseemly to endlessly "repeat" (sorry) the same points, regardless of their merits. Accusing someone of immoderate behavior-yes. Well.

All of that said, carry on as you like.


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## creativeforge

NYC Composer said:


> ...or you could look up old threads and find some seriously interesting, incredibly well produced music. All of that said, carry on as you like.



I guess I'm holding my breath for him to apologize. Or anyone defending his great musical intelligence, to encourage him to show also some heart, help him out. I've noticed how he just lets loose here on VIC a few times a year, with perfect strangers. And then moves on, seemingly unphased by the damage he does to these people. I have no hatred for him, only compassion, and pity that he doesn't have friends who care enough to publicly (or privately) stand up to him when he gets in that space. At least, I haven't seen any fruit of that happening.


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## NYC Composer

I believe I've been here substantially longer than you, though I might be wrong. I had many public discussions about the, in my opinion, unnecessary force with which he expressed himself at times.

But none of that speaks to my point. If you keep railing about this, you are exerting an unnecessary amount of force yourself. Do you have the unshakeable belief that you can move planets by sheer force of will and indefatigable posting? Sometimes it's better to accept people as they are, deplore their mannerisms publicly perhaps, but then let it go. I think this is one of those times, but that's the last I'll say about it.


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## Baron Greuner

I have so few Belgian friends. I had a friend at school just like Piet. And naturally I was the one that always got into trouble. You have to watch these guys because they're crafty.


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## rottoy

Baron Greuner said:


> I have so few Belgian friends. I had a friend at school just like Piet. And naturally I was the one that always got into trouble. You have to watch these guys because they're crafty.


So Piet is Dr. Evil's father?


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## creativeforge

NYC Composer said:


> I believe I've been here substantially longer than you, though I might be wrong. I had many public discussions about the, in my opinion, unnecessary force with which he expressed himself at times.
> 
> But none of that speaks to my point. If you keep railing about this, you are exerting an unnecessary amount of force yourself. Do you have the unshakeable belief that you can move planets by sheer force of will and indefatigable posting? Sometimes it's better to accept people as they are, deplore their mannerisms publicly perhaps, but then let it go. I think this is one of those times, but that's the last I'll say about it.



Fair enough, I didn't see it that way, but you have a good point... 

Thanks,

Andre


----------

