# Lyrical legato strings comparison



## muk (Oct 30, 2017)

Hello everyone

After posting an arrangement of a Schubert song that I had made, @Erik asked me if I would be willing to share the midi files so that we could compare renderings with several string libraries. After giving it some thought, here they are. I can only contribute two libraries myself, Cinematic Studio Strings, and VSL Dimension Strings. If anybody would like to add others that would be awesome.

Here is the arrangement of Schubert's 'Litanei auf das Fest Allerseelen' D 343 with *Cinematic Studio Strings*:
https://app.box.com/s/dopdfshfg79stoc6c7eh89cws6e4wo4z

And here are the *Dimension Strings*:
https://app.box.com/s/0z0easxx0e75udyafmv79ptpn5v3wov4


I'd be especially interested to hear how Berlin Strings, LASS, and Spitfire Symphonic Strings and Chamber Strings would sound with this music.

If you'd like to discuss the arrangement rather than the libraries, head over to this thread:
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/schubert-lied-arrangement-for-strings.65873/

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Links for those who would like to add their own versions

Midi files (I removed the cc1 data and keyswitches as they will vary for every library):
https://app.box.com/s/r95wjx0un9o488dzb3sfh3ttt6j983x7

Score:
https://app.box.com/s/n87o7e65vg8575029hnv85f03n2r8cgu

Audio file of the harp, if you don't want to use your own:
https://app.box.com/s/ovf2d4yna5n6f83hgjysia7knof4tayx


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## Rob (Oct 30, 2017)

thanks Muk, I'm gonna do an Appassionata version and a Chamber str. too... I think I need to adjust note positions and add some cc11, if you don't mind...

both your versions are lovely, very different in tone... CSS is my favorite, because of the amount of expression it contains. But the dimension strings one has very clear voice leading, and it's warm even if the vibrato is less present. Nice job!


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## Erik (Oct 30, 2017)

I'll do Spitfire Chamber Strings, VSL Orchestra, and perhaps get LASS out of dust layers. Thanks Muk, for offering this work!


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## Sid Francis (Oct 31, 2017)

Thank you all for your work , this is/will be very helpfull. And with the first comparison possible I see why I love the Cinematic Studio Strings so much  Nice piece too to compare


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## muk (Oct 31, 2017)

Thank you guys, looking forward to hearing your versions. Rob, please do change/adjust/add as much as you like to make it sound the way you want. You can work from the score alone and completely ignore the midi file if that is easier. 

CSS sounds romantic and lush. Suits the piece very well in my opinion. Dimension Strings are a little less romantic, but very transparent and clear. I too prefer CSS for this piece, but DS hold up better than I thought they would. And I think their special qualities shine through. They might not be the perfect match for the piece here, but where clarity of voice leading and a transparent, classical sound is wanted they are a great choice.


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## Saxer (Oct 31, 2017)

Which DAW tempo did you use in your song?

*Edit*
The midi file doesn't really work here without problems... lots of pedal data in there (which seems to confuse some libaries - I get clack sounds on note starts here... not the regular note start in SM-strings) and when I try to convert pedal into note length (a function in Logic) there are lots of same note overlaps which results in muting the second note (NOTE ON - NOTE ON - NOTE OFF - NOTE OFF dilemma). Also the 16th-note figures sound 'swinging", probably a reaction to CSS's legato delays. But that it's a general problem of transfering midi data to other sound sources.
To much obstackles for me now as I have some deadlines waiting... and I was really hoping to do some serious procrastination... damn! Better luck next time


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## muk (Oct 31, 2017)

Saxer said:


> To much obstackles for me now as I have some deadlines waiting... and I was really hoping to do some serious procrastination...



Dang, too bad. You are absolutely right, I completely forgot about the CSS legato lag. That's compensated for in the midi file which is really annoying when working with another library. I've uploaded a new midi file (the one from my DS project). The timing should be right now, and no pedal data either. I hope this one works better.


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## muziksculp (Oct 31, 2017)

Hi muk,

Thanks for posting the VSL Dim-Strings version.

imho. The CSS version suits this piece better than the VSL Dim-Strings version. The CSS version has that Romantic Strings Character, smooth, and silky warm. The VSL Dim-Strings sound very nice as well, but have a bit of an edge to them, making them better for classical feel, and less for the Romantic sound. I think VSL Appassionata Strings will be another good choice for this piece. 

You did a great job with both Libraries.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## muk (Oct 31, 2017)

Thanks @muziksculp I completely agree with your assessment of CSS and DS.


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## Chris Hein (Oct 31, 2017)

I did a version with a beta version of my upcoming CH-String Ensemble.



In a second version I added a solo string for each track to give it a bit more character:


There is no true legato at all in the ensembles. Its not programmed yet.

The MIDI file is really a bit weird. The timing and length is a bit weak.
I edited only a few notes, deleted the sustain pedal and adjusted the velocities.
Its almost done with a single articulation "Dynamic Expression" which has a nice progressive volume and vibrato change.

Chris Hein


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## Saxer (Oct 31, 2017)

Hey Chris, that's a beautiful ensemble sound!


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## muk (Oct 31, 2017)

Thanks for that sneak peak Chris! I concur with Saxer, that is a rather lovely ensemble sound. Very interesting to hear.

The timing issues in the midi-file are fixed. It was because of CSS's legato lag. I've uploaded a new midi-file and updated the link.


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## muziksculp (Oct 31, 2017)

Ooooh I didn't expect a Chris Hein String Ensemble Library coming our way !

Sounds very good, and that's without true legato, I'm guessing it will sound even better with the Legato's once they are already programmed into the library. The demo with the Solo added is a bit more expressive. 

Looking forward to the *Chris Hein String Ensemble* Library. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## chapbot (Oct 31, 2017)

Chris Hein said:


> I did a version with a beta version of my upcoming CH-String Ensemble.
> Chris Hein



Upcoming string ensemble!!!!!!!!!!!! What!!!!!!!!!!!!! When!!!!!!!!????


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## Rob (Nov 1, 2017)

muk said:


> CSS sounds romantic and lush. Suits the piece very well in my opinion.



Agreed, and it's not just the lushness... every sample has a beginning, a middle and an end, it has musical intention, a meaning. Something that in vsl isn't necessarily true, at least in the libraries I have...


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## Lassi Tani (Nov 1, 2017)

Didn't expect to hear Chris Hein Strings Ensemble, that's marvelous news, and they sound lovely!!

The piece would need a bit more work though, e.g. the melody line sounds sometimes a bit disconnected, but that comes probably from the original midi file, which on the other hand works well for CSS.

@muk I'm hearing odd note endings in the CSS at 0:19-0:20, which I don't see in the score. Is that intended?


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## Erik (Nov 1, 2017)

Herewith my first contributions, only the first 16 measures, I guess it would be enough for a comparison. I changed (sorry Muk!) a few details (octave transposition up of the first harp notes, these were sooooooo low) and the first two viola notes down, because they interfered too much with the melody for me). Also tempo mapping has been customized.

Anyway, here we go.

http://www.erikotte.nl/temp/SchubertLitanei_VSLOrchestraStrings.mp3 (VSL Orchestra strings)
http://www.erikotte.nl/temp/SchubertLitanei_SCS.mp3 (Spitfire Chamber Strings)
Spitfire Chamber Strings (_doubled_ with the 'transposition trick')
http://www.erikotte.nl/temp/SchubertLitanei_SCS+VSL.mp3 (and why not: (for fun reasons): VSL and SCS layered)
The harp is from Orchestral Tools.

While working on these tracks I thought, that the title of this thread better could have been _Lyrical legato strings comparison in intimate pieces. _Maybe things will be quite different in forte passages.

Please enjoy!


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## muk (Nov 1, 2017)

sekkosiki said:


> @muk I'm hearing odd note endings in the CSS at 0:19-0:20, which I don't see in the score. Is that intended?



Frankly I didn't notice it until you mentioned it. So no, not inteded.

Thanks a ton Erik! Very interesting. The Chamber Strings' tone doesn't quite fit the piece I must say. It's much better when doubled with the transposition trick. Not really the best piece for a chamber setting I guess. VSL's sound is actually better than I would have thought. Probably not my first choice overall, but I wouldn't despair where I told I had to work with them for the piece. I like VSL with SCS on top as well.


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## Rob (Nov 1, 2017)

here's a vsl Appassionata version...

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/schubert-appass-mp3.10174/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## muk (Nov 1, 2017)

Rob said:


> here's a vsl Appassionata version...



Whoa, nice. The basses are sometimes too pronounced for my taste, but overall that is a very nice ensemble sound.


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## muziksculp (Nov 1, 2017)

My favorite is the CSS version. Next is VSL Appssionata version, then Dim-Strings.

The chamber strings versions are fine, but not the most suitable for this type of music. 

Thanks for all the music posts.


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## Arbee (Nov 1, 2017)

If I can find some time I'll have a crack with 8dio Adagietto, I suspect its beautiful tone might suit this well if I can control it adequately.....


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## Erik (Nov 2, 2017)

http://www.erikotte.nl/temp/SchubertLitanei_VSL+SoaringS.mp3 (Herewith VSL Orchestra Strings layered with Soaring Strings) (weren't they meant for this?).


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## Rob (Nov 2, 2017)

Erik said:


> http://www.erikotte.nl/temp/SchubertLitanei_VSL+SoaringS.mp3 (Herewith VSL Orchestra Strings layered with Soaring Strings) (weren't they meant for this?).


beautiful sound... the portamentos are a bit too pronounced though for me... I usually draw a little dip at the beginning of the landing note to compensate for that.


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## SoNowWhat? (Nov 2, 2017)

This is brilliant. Thank you all.


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## Erik (Nov 2, 2017)

And, as promised, http://www.erikotte.nl/temp/SchubertLitanei_LASSB.mp3 (LASS) (ABC, not the first chairs). Tamed with the LASS Timbral Impulses.

Anybody here who could do a version with Berlin Strings?



Rob said:


> beautiful sound... the portamentos are a bit too pronounced though for me... I usually draw a little dip at the beginning of the landing note to compensate for that.


Thanks for mentioning Rob!


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## Saxer (Nov 2, 2017)

I only made the first six bars... but it's ok for sound listening.

There are three versions.

First is Samplemodeling only (5 1st, 4 2nd, 3 Vla, 3 Vlc)
Second is the same Samplemodeling set doubled with Spitfire Chamber Strings.
Third is the same doubled with Dimension Strings (also 5 1st, 4 2nd, 3 Vla, 3 Vlc)
Basses in all examples are Dimension Strings (4 basses).

The third set is my to go string section at the moment. Works fine as addition to pop songs and in orchestral environment.

Everything dry, no reverb.


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## Rob (Nov 2, 2017)

fantastic job saxer, modeled strings really let you hear the musician behind the instruments... very musical and enjoyable


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## muk (Nov 2, 2017)

Very nice, the new examples. VSL and Soaring Strings works well. LASS is very nice too, if a bit bright for my taste.

@Saxer this setup is very cool. The immediacy of the performance is incredible - this sounds truly performed, not just mocked up. The sound reminds me of a live studio session. Very classy. Though I can't help but wonder how these would sound with just a bit of reverb added.


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## INCIRIOS (Nov 2, 2017)

Quick sketch using Light and Sound Chamber Strings update, just a small bit of tempo mapping and cc1 added.


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## ctsai89 (Nov 2, 2017)

Chris Hein said:


> I did a version with a beta version of my upcoming CH-String Ensemble.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wwwwwwww..WOWOWOWOW!!!! And legato's not even there YET.

my head was facing where synchron was but CH string ensemble just turned my head.


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## JeeTee (Nov 2, 2017)

OK, here's one that hasn't been mentioned yet...

http://guytheaker.com/SchubertMix.wav (Hollywood Strings &amp; Harp)


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## Lawson. (Nov 2, 2017)

Chris Hein said:


> I did a version with a beta version of my upcoming CH-String Ensemble.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Holy cow, Chris, that sounded awesome! I am seriously impressed. 

EDIT: Just heard Saxer's version, and that _also_ sounds amazing.


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## Saxer (Nov 3, 2017)

muk said:


> @Saxer Though I can't help but wonder how these would sound with just a bit of reverb added.


Here is a wet version:


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## OleJoergensen (Nov 3, 2017)

Light and Sound said:


> Quick sketch using Light and Sound Chamber Strings update, just a small bit of tempo mapping and cc1 added.



Sounds lovely.


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## Erik (Nov 3, 2017)

@Saxer: *very *well done! I enjoyed your versions very much, for me the DS with the SM is overwhelming. Never thought that SM strings could be of importance as layering instrument.

I have two questions however about the SWAM instruments (as user of these strings myself):

Have you done anything to avoid phasing issues with all parts duplicated? Or wasn't there any phasing at all from the start?
Did you customize every isolated track or did you just copy the 'master midi track' up to 5 separate tracks?


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## Saxer (Nov 3, 2017)

Erik said:


> Have you done anything to avoid phasing issues with all parts duplicated? Or wasn't there any phasing at all from the start?
> Did you customize every isolated track or did you just copy the 'master midi track' up to 5 separate tracks?


It started as a test for using SWAM strings as a first chair. But I had lot of phasing between the first and second violin when playing in unison. So I set a slighly different tuning (Micortuning randomly +/- 0 to 40 per note on each instrument) and different vibrato random and vibrato rate levels. It worked fine and I so added more instances. A Few SWAMs got a bit of delay (wet only audio Fx inserts). I also used different sound variations (SWAM main page Instrument selection).

I have everything in VEPro on a slave PC. 1st violins(A) in one instance with 5xSWAM + 1Kontakt(SCS) and another 1st violins(B) instance for Dimension Strings. Two tracks in the DAW so it's possible to write divisi. But mostly I just copy Midi from A to B. So I have nine string tracks in Logic. I don't want to get mad with gazillions of tracks.
Best side effect: this tracks work for short notes too! Just play short notes on the keyboard! I wouldn't use them for longer spicc/stacc passages but for mixed articulations it's really: "you get what you play for".


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## Erik (Nov 3, 2017)

Thanks, Saxer!


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## Paul T McGraw (Nov 3, 2017)

Erik said:


> Herewith my first contributions, only the first 16 measures, I guess it would be enough for a comparison. I changed (sorry Muk!) a few details (octave transposition up of the first harp notes, these were sooooooo low) and the first two viola notes down, because they interfered too much with the melody for me). Also tempo mapping has been customized.
> 
> Anyway, here we go.
> 
> ...



The VSL and SCS layered is very good. It sounds very realistic to me. A lovely and multidimensional sound.


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## Paul T McGraw (Nov 3, 2017)

Rob said:


> here's a vsl Appassionata version...
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/schubert-appass-mp3.10174/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Fantastic performance. Very lovely and emotional.


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## shomynik (Nov 3, 2017)

Beautifull thread!


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## Paul T McGraw (Nov 3, 2017)

No one can try Berlin Strings? It will be fun to try this with the new Synchron Strings when they arrive.


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## s_bettinzana (Nov 3, 2017)

Chris Hein said:


> I did a version with a beta version of my upcoming CH-String Ensemble.


What a nice surprise! I am definitely interested in this.


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## muk (Nov 3, 2017)

Light and Sound said:


> Quick sketch using Light and Sound Chamber Strings update, just a small bit of tempo mapping and cc1 added.




Lovely, so serene. These Chamber Strings are just great. And they are very affordable too.

Hollywood Strings - marvellous. Great job on the mockup @JeeTee ! When the celli join Vl 1 for the melody that's so beautiful.



Saxer said:


> Here is a wet version:




Fantastic! Oddly the timbre of Sample Modeling alone bothers me a bit with the reverb. It didn't at all in the dry version, and it doesn't in the two layered versions. And the performance is just fantastic.


I second Paul's wish. A version with Berlin Strings would be fantastic. And yes, looking forward to a version with Synchron Strings as well.


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## shomynik (Nov 3, 2017)

Here's a quick one with Berlin Strings. Tree, Close (less) and AB (just a little) mikes used, with some Seventh Heaven (Sunset Chamber) verb added. Although, I really love those CSS. Muk, are those sordino?


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## muk (Nov 3, 2017)

Thanks a lot for Berlin Strings @shomynik! This sounds great, one of my favourite versions. It has a classical touch. Very nice ensemble sound.

No sordinos shomynik, and if I remember correctly no eq either.


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## Rob (Nov 3, 2017)

another good combination, 8dio adagio/anthology with just a touch of swam quartet to help connections...

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/schubert-8dio-mp3.10203/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Saxer (Nov 3, 2017)

Lots of great sounding versions! Land of strings and honey for string sample nerds like me


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## shomynik (Nov 3, 2017)

Saxer said:


> Lots of great sounding versions! Land of strings and honey for string sample nerds like me


indeed...we all freaked out about the new one


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## muziksculp (Nov 3, 2017)

Rob said:


> another good combination, 8dio adagio/anthology with just a touch of swam quartet to help connections...
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/schubert-8dio-mp3.10203/][/AUDIOPLUS]



This is an interesting combination, and it sounds great !

Thanks for sharing.

Q. You used the SWAM Quartet to help connections, could you elaborate by what that means ?

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Rob (Nov 3, 2017)

muziksculp said:


> This is an interesting combination, and it sounds great !
> 
> Thanks for sharing.
> 
> ...



I'll try with a drawing (with fingers on ipad so bear with me  )
The solo line helps reconnect the original threads... does it make sense?


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## muziksculp (Nov 3, 2017)

Rob said:


> I'll try with a drawing (with fingers on ipad so bear with me  )
> The solo line helps reconnect the original threads... does it make sense?



Thanks for the cool drawing and explanation 

Was the connectivity, or smooth transitions improvement via Solo Strings something you needed to do because of the 8dio Anthology Strings, or is this something you find helpful to do with any ensemble string library ? i.e. if you used CSS would you still need to add the SWAM instruments ?

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## markleake (Nov 3, 2017)

Light and Sound said:


> Quick sketch using Light and Sound Chamber Strings update, just a small bit of tempo mapping and cc1 added.



This sounds beautiful. Of the two chamber strings examples, this one takes the cake in my opinion. You guys need more credit for this library methinks.


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## Rob (Nov 4, 2017)

muziksculp said:


> Thanks for the cool drawing and explanation
> 
> Was the connectivity, or smooth transitions improvement via Solo Strings something you needed to do because of the 8dio Anthology Strings, or is this something you find helpful to do with any ensemble string library ? i.e. if you used CSS would you still need to add the SWAM instruments ?
> 
> ...


I think that's a limitation of every sampled ensembles... let's say we have 5 violins going from c to g. While in a real recording each instrument goes from c to g, with samples there's no way to have v1-c connect to v1-g, v2-c connect to v2-g ....... v5-c to v5-g... there will always be some kind of interruption when changing notes. I must say though that css seem to manage better than others in this regard...


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## muziksculp (Nov 4, 2017)

Rob said:


> I think that's a limitation of every sampled ensembles... let's say we have 5 violins going from c to g. While in a real recording each instrument goes from c to g, with samples there's no way to have v1-c connect to v1-g, v2-c connect to v2-g ....... v5-c to v5-g... there will always be some kind of interruption when changing notes. I must say though that css seem to manage better than others in this regard...



Hi Rob,

Thank you very much for your helpful feedback. I see what you mean, that's an important details, and it's these types of details that we virtual instruments / library users need to deal with in our craft, basically the details matter. 

I always learn something new here. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## muk (Nov 4, 2017)

Rob said:


> While in a real recording each instrument goes from c to g, with samples there's no way to have v1-c connect to v1-g, v2-c connect to v2-g ....... v5-c to v5-g...



But isn't that what legato articulations do? They sample the ensemble going from c to g, with every member of the ensemble playing that exact sequence of notes. I'm not sure how legato is implemented in sample libraries, but I would expect that you hear a fraction of the first note (the c in this case), the actual legato transition (=every player going from c to g), and a fraction of the second note (g here). After that the second note might be truncated and crossfade into whatever articulation you have set next. But the truncation would not be on the legato transition itself, but shortly before, and shortly after. That would mean that you hear every player connect from c to g.
I'm not sure if I fully understand what you are saying Rob. In any case I think this particular problem would not apply to Dimension Strings where every player was miced individually.


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## Rob (Nov 4, 2017)

muk said:


> But isn't that what legato articulations do? They sample the ensemble going from c to g, with every member of the ensemble playing that exact sequence of notes. I'm not sure how legato is implemented in sample libraries, but I would expect that you hear a fraction of the first note (the c in this case), the actual legato transition (=every player going from c to g), and a fraction of the second note (g here). After that the second note might be truncated and crossfade into whatever articulation you have set next. But the truncation would not be on the legato transition itself, but shortly before, and shortly after. That would mean that you hear every player connect from c to g.
> I'm not sure if I fully understand what you are saying Rob. In any case I think this particular problem would not apply to Dimension Strings where every player was miced individually.


Yes that’s what I‘m saying, somewhere the truncation, as you call it, has to occur. Either before, in the middle or after the connection


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## Rudankort (Nov 4, 2017)

Same track with Kirk Hunter Virtuoso Ensembles.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/schubert-litanei-kirk-hunter-virtuoso-ensembles-mp3.10209/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## muk (Nov 5, 2017)

Thank you for the Kirk Hunter example Rudankort. Another good sounding version. For my taste the sound of these strings is a bit dull, especially the violins, but that could be down to my own taste.


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## fabrizio (Nov 5, 2017)

I attempted a rendition with a very old set of samples, just for curiosity. These are the strings in Cakewalk Dimension Pro . 

Muk, congratulations for the arrangement. It is beautiful indeed. It got stuck into my head and won't go away. It actually shines in most of the renditions shared... good thing that music comes before the instruments, real or virtual.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/schubert_litanei-mp3.10226/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## muk (Nov 6, 2017)

Thanks for your compliments fabrizio! Never heard of Cakewalk Dimension Pro, nor its included samples. It has quite an interesting low-fi-feel to it. The tuning variations are a bit dominant for my taste, but for effect it is an interesting option (or maybe for layering quiet low under almost too perfect strings).


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## wpc982 (Nov 7, 2017)

I'm enjoying working with this a little; whether I'll have a rendition to post, don't yet know. Two observations jump out, and they're not exactly about the arrangment, rather about what the midi file implies about the sound. 1) very very many of the note-to-note lines overlap as if written for a legato instrument, even when the arrangement does not use a slur: so to get what the midi implies, real players would have to be facing giant (and impossible) slurs over long passages 2) the open G in the second violin, several times in the beginning, can be managed using samples but with real players that note might stick out quite unintentionally. 

More later ...


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