# Need Composers



## Vivian.breton (Jun 7, 2010)

Hey guys this is my first post, so I'm a bit of a noob.

I'm doing a music degree and I have to submit a research based assignment.
For it I have decided to test whether people can tell the difference between real orchestras and synthesized ones.

Does anyone know where I can find a recording of various orchestral instruments just playing one note, and then a virtual instrument playing the same note? 

Also if you guys have any of their pieces that you think people wont be able to tell it was written with sample libraries then please send them to me.

Thank you so much for your time.


----------



## Ed (Jun 7, 2010)

Vivian.breton @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> Does anyone know where I can find a recording of various orchestral instruments just playing one note, and then a virtual instrument playing the same note?



Wouldn't that be the same thing?


----------



## Mike Connelly (Jun 7, 2010)

Agreed - with a single note, a recording and a sample are the same thing. Generally where things sound fake is when multiple notes are phrased together, it's how the notes connect, or repeated notes where you can hear that it is a repeated recording.

I would think at the very least you'd need phrases of solo instruments.


----------



## Vivian.breton (Jun 7, 2010)

Yeah that's a good point. Do you know where I can find a phrase that has been copied with a virtual instrument??


----------



## Reegs (Jun 7, 2010)

A while back Dan Kury did a mockup of Dvorak's New World Symphony with Garritan Personal Orchestra. He got the timbre to match the recording very well and there's an MP3 which shifts between GPO and the real orchestra (not sure of the recording source).

It appears that it is no longer available online, though if you contact Dan (DPDan) you may be able to get a copy of it. Here's a link to the discussion thread: http://northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34603

Another good source for mocked up pieces with orchestra comparisons would be the demos section of the Vienna Symphonic Library. Jay Bacal and Guy Bacos have done some truly impressive mockups of works by well-known (and recorded) composers.

http://vsl.co.at/en/67/245/255.vsl

Not exactly what you're looking for, I guess, but it should be easy to chop up the MP3s to get certain phrases.


----------



## José Herring (Jun 7, 2010)

Reegs @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> A while back Dan Kury did a mockup of Dvorak's New World Symphony with Garritan Personal Orchestra. He got the timbre to match the recording very well and there's an MP3 which shifts between GPO and the real orchestra (not sure of the recording source).



Ah yes. Fond memories. The thread that got me banned for life at NS. :lol: 

But in all fairness to Dvorak, they tampered with the recording to match GPO and not the other way around.


----------



## Jason (Jun 7, 2010)

Hi Vivian,

I don't know where you can find instrument phrases copied by virtual instruments, but if you are at a music school, you might be surrounded by performance students who play a variety of instruments, and composition students who may have access to contemporary sound libraries. Why not ask them to let you record a some of their performances? That way, you can control the complexity of the phrases you use and the instrumentation. You could compare the realism of a single sampled interval with a phrase of ten notes, for example. Remember that the realism of one particular sample library may be different from another, and that one composer may do a better job of creating a realistic performance with a sample library than another depending on their skill and familiarity with the samples used.

Before I composed professionally, I did a master`s degree in music psychology. Although my lab was in the psychology department, I spent a lot of time over at the university`s music school, getting help from the students and professors. One of my projects required me to re-arrange a Mozart piano sonata so that there was a version ending on every major key, and each version had to sound like Mozart ~o) . I sure needed help from the composition profs for that one!

I hope this helps- sounds like a good study and I`d be interested to hear the results! 

Best,
- Jason


----------



## nikolas (Jun 7, 2010)

Why not do it yourself, or pay a tiny fee to have someone do it? I'm guessing that the uni could allocate a small sum of money for research purposes...

Just write a few phrases and then have someone do them with VIs!


----------



## José Herring (Jun 7, 2010)

I think the most interesting research would be to compare and contrast a few well known pieces that have been mocked up with samples. There's plenty of examples on the VSL site and a few with East West. 

best,

Jose


----------



## Hannes_F (Jun 7, 2010)

This is an interesting topic of course.

But, excuse me if I say this, for somebody that plans to do a scientific research you are remarkeably uninformed about the topic. As somebody that has done research for more than a decade I must tell you that the first requisite in order to do a proper study would be to have more background or else you could produce grossly misleading results that then could be quoted over and over. So what you do is really a responsible task.

The first topic you need to care about is how to set up a proper double blind test. You probably know that already, but that is the easy part.

The second part is how to set up the test and the questions. If I look at what you wrote above I shudder a little because if you had not found this forum you would probably have set up a test with one note real recordings vs. one note samples and - voila - received the result that recordings and samples are not distinguisheable nowadays. Although the best mockup artists here would probably tell you the opposite.

So ... the result of this test is highly dependent on what you play to people, and what you ask them. Keep in mind that samples are real recordings, and many of them are recorded by world class engineers, world class musicians in a world class room. Chances are high that a single note performed by your local student orchestra on a Zoom H4 sounds less good than the one or the other single note sample. So in order to do a proper test you need to have live material that is on par (note that we are here using the term 'live' for any recordings that are played on real instruments by musicians, that may include studio recordings and live recordings).

Then ... what do you want to ask people? Whether they can hear a difference? Should they describe the difference if any? How long is the part that you plan to play for them? How good is the real performance and the quality of the recording? Are they listening on headphones, on a TV or on stereo speakers (headphones and high end speakers not necessarily being the best options)? All these factors will have an impact on the result.

BTW one of the best tests that I can think of in regards to the difference between real recordings and sampled music would be this:

Expose persons to music (mockup music and real recordings chosen statistically) and film them. Measure the time when they show signs of distraction, like moving on the chair, looking around, asking questions etc.. Let an independent committee decide when they think the person is not concentrated on the music any more based on the film only, sound switched off, and this committee should also not know whether the actual music played is live or samples. I think the result would show then whether or not live recordings yield longer concentration spans than samples, and this test would include unconcious reactions that are difficult to describe and interesting when doing tests with persons that are no musicians themselves. This would then have a certain relevance to the music production industry.

Cheers
Hannes


----------



## Hannes_F (Jun 7, 2010)

Hannes_F said:


> BTW one of the best tests that I can think of in regards to the difference between real recordings and sampled music would be this:
> 
> Expose persons to music (mockup music and real recordings chosen statistically) and film them. Measure the time when they show signs of distraction, like moving on the chair, looking around, asking questions etc..



Here is an idea to make this test easier: Give the persons a remote control with one knob that lets them switch to the next track. Record how long they are listening per track ... easy.

Have two sets of CDs where the music is in the same order but for every music that is real on one CD the same track is sampled on the other CD, and vice versa. Do a double blind test in the sense that the person that hands out the CD to the test persons and explains them what to do does not know which CD is which (ideally this staff person would not even know that the test is about samples etc.).

Don't ask suggestive questions like "does that sound realistic" or "does that sound fake". As many here can tell you realistic and impressive are not necessarily the same. It would be best just to inform the test persons very generally, in the sense "this is a test about a music product" or the like.


----------



## Ed (Jun 7, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> Hmmm now where was that demo of GPO doing Jurassic Park....



Is this it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgFYABm3by0


----------



## midphase (Jun 7, 2010)

That's mean!


----------



## Ed (Jun 7, 2010)

midphase @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> That's mean!



I know but its fun


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 7, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> choc0thrax @ Mon Jun 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm now where was that demo of GPO doing Jurassic Park....
> ...



That wasn't necessary.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 7, 2010)

What is not clear to me is what is the point of this experiment? Some mockups or passages absolutely do sound like a real orchestra, and yes a lot of people are fooled by it, but how is that important in this assignment? What do you want to prove?

Not criticizing, just want to understand.


----------



## Vivian.breton (Jun 8, 2010)

Haha, fair play to Ed's comment that was a good dig at me. But seriously thanks for all your help guys. This study was just meant for my degree, I was never going to publish it outside my university. I have spoken to my professor and he is keen to see how this experiment turns out so thank you for all your suggestions.


----------



## handz (Jun 8, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> choc0thrax @ Mon Jun 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm now where was that demo of GPO doing Jurassic Park....
> ...



This is GPO? So maybe it isnt so bad after all...


----------

