# Is film music just another job?



## eph221 (Apr 9, 2019)

I don't even like films so this is hard for me to answer. I think computer games are a ridiculous waste of time. Is the reason it's now so popular because it pays better than writing music for art's sake? Is that the reason it's so popular in academia (because it pays?) Sorry to be so cynical, but I don't see why musicians are flocking to these idioms. What are the reasons in order of importance?


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## D Halgren (Apr 9, 2019)

What do you like for entertainment?


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## JT (Apr 9, 2019)

Music can be a job, a hobby, a dream, a passion, any number of things. IMO whatever direction you take is in no way inferior or superior to someone else. If you're in it as a business, you try to make decisions that will make your business successful. If you're in it for a personal expression of art, you make decisions that will fulfill your dream. They're all good.

I agree with you about videogames, and find many films trite. But I often enjoy film music on its own. Listening to the music first before seeing the film.


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## Harzmusic (Apr 9, 2019)

eph221 said:


> What are the reasons in order of importance?


I don't think most successful media composers really despise the very medium they work for. Either they honestly care enough about the experience of the audience, or they have to lie and pretend to do so in order to get the job. Even then they still mainly have to work on something they do not see any value in.
I am sure there are professional composers with that viewpoint, but that just sounds like a recipe for misery to me.

I personally like films, tv shows and video games a lot, even though I don't find much time for them - escpecially for games. I honestly don't understand how someone can have enough time on their hands to really play the games that are being put out there. But I envy these people a bit, because I like the experience and enjoy the consumer side of things.
I actually wouldn't want to write concert music all day - it is fascinating once in a while, but I'd probably soon miss the form, collaboration and narrative of visual media.

Of course film and game music are "just" a job. But who says that you have to hate your job?


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## Christof (Apr 9, 2019)

Every job is just another job.
A plumber, Wall Street banker, Pizza delivery service, President of the US, advocate or film composer.
All those serve a special purpose (except Trump.)


A plumber makes you happy because your bathroom remains dry.
A Wall Street banker makes you happy because your share allows you to afford your dream holidays.
A pizza delivery service makes you happy because you can watch Netflix during dinner.
The president of the US won't make you happy.
An advocate will make you happy because he sends a letter to you client who is not willing to pay you.
A film composer makes you happy because he supports your emotions while watching Out Of Africa.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 9, 2019)

For me, it’s a dream come true, not a job at all. Proof?: If I became a multi-millionaire, I would still write for film and tv.


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## VinRice (Apr 9, 2019)

What a very odd question.


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## José Herring (Apr 9, 2019)

Long hours, mostly low pay until you hit pay dirt and when you do hit pay dirt your wife leaves you because you never have time for her. 

Best job anybody could hope for.


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## eph221 (Apr 9, 2019)

JT said:


> Music can be a job, a hobby, a dream, a passion, any number of things. IMO whatever direction you take is in no way inferior or superior to someone else. If you're in it as a business, you try to make decisions that will make your business successful. If you're in it for a personal expression of art, you make decisions that will fulfill your dream. They're all good.
> 
> I agree with you about videogames, and find many films trite. But I often enjoy film music on its own. Listening to the music first before seeing the film.





Hello,

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I completely agree with your attitude. In Portland we have a huge assortment of amazing musicians amateur as well as professional. In some cases I prefer hearing the amateur because they're more likely to take risks with the music. But... Please don't move here!


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## D Halgren (Apr 9, 2019)

eph221 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to respond. I completely agree with your attitude. In Portland we have a huge assortment of amazing musicians amateur as well as professional. In some cases I prefer hearing the amateur because they're more likely to take risks with the music. But... Please don't move here!


We have some great film makers here as well, but I guess you're not in to that


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## eph221 (Apr 9, 2019)

Yes I know. Some great composers tootoo womyn composers which is fantastic. Unfortunately for me I think writing film music isnt in the cards.


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## VinRice (Apr 9, 2019)

Tattooed Women Composers! Awesome.


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## InLight-Tone (Apr 9, 2019)

No it's not a job, it's a gift to work with vibration for $$$ or not:

"According to the thinkers of the East, there are five different intoxications: of beauty, youth and strength; then the intoxication of wealth; the third is power, command, the power of ruling; and there is the fourth intoxication, which is the intoxication of learning, of knowledge. But all these four intoxications fade away just like stars before the sun in the presence of the intoxication of music. The reason is that it touches that deepest part of man’s being. Music reaches farther than any other impression from the external world can reach. And the beauty of music is that it is both the source of creation and the means of absorbing it. In other words, by music was the world created, and by music it is withdrawn again into the source which has created it."
Hazrat Inayat Khan (1882-1927) Founder of the Sufi Order in the West

Music Therapy: Nursing the Music of the Soul..."The forms of snowflakes and faces of flowers may take on their shape because they are responding to some sound in nature. Likewise, it is possible that crystals, plants, and human beings may be, in some way, music that has taken on visible form."

"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music".
-Aldous Huxley


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## dgburns (Apr 9, 2019)

Unless you’re a staff writer, it ain’t like any job I ever had.

It’s more of like being onboard a crazy train with no one steering, but everyone thinks they should.


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 9, 2019)

josejherring said:


> Long hours, mostly low pay until you hit pay dirt and when you do hit pay dirt your wife leaves you because you never have time for her.
> 
> Best job anybody could hope for.



Best of both worlds indeed!


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## KallumS (Apr 10, 2019)

I love film and video games, I wouldn't want to work in those industries if I didn't.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 10, 2019)

You could try making it in the elevator music business or write for Dubai conference hotel bathrooms if games and film are too lowbrow and ridiculous for you.


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 10, 2019)

Urrgh.
That music should be created "for art" and placed on a pedestal for others to appreciate...is an opinion I had when I was fourteen years old.


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 10, 2019)

poetd said:


> That's an odd view.
> Can't music be both art and commodity?


Of course. But sometimes there's a tendency for the community to differentiate between the two and the belief that creating for "art" is the more noble pursuit.

Media composers aren't hacks who would rather be writing concert music or highbrow concept albums.


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## mikeh-375 (Apr 10, 2019)

Alex Fraser said:


> Media composers aren't hacks who would rather be writing concert music or highbrow concept albums.



Well there's at least one exception Alex...
@Christof ...now that was a score that took 'just another job' into the realm of timeless, moving classic....not your average 9-5 outcome.


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## Morning Coffee (Apr 10, 2019)

Whether it is a artistic or commercial endeavour, I generally admire anyone who can make a sustainable living wage from music composition or it's supporting industries (without seeking government grants or spouting their politics of course.) I think it is better than digging trenches or working on a factory floor doing menial duties (but I admire those basket of deplorables too, probably more).


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 10, 2019)

When you find a career you genuinely love, you'll never work again.


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## eph221 (Apr 10, 2019)

Alex Fraser said:


> Urrgh.
> That music should be created "for art" and placed on a pedestal for others to appreciate...is an opinion I had when I was fourteen years old.




I thought we had stomped out feelings of inferiority. Lots of work still left to do.


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## robgb (Apr 10, 2019)

eph221 said:


> I don't even like films so this is hard for me to answer.


How is that even possible?


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## Daniel (Apr 10, 2019)

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> For me, it’s a dream come true, not a job at all. Proof?: If I became a multi-millionaire, I would still write for film and tv.


This.


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## TheNorseman (Apr 10, 2019)

eph221 said:


> I don't even like films so this is hard for me to answer. I think computer games are a ridiculous waste of time. Is the reason it's now so popular because it pays better than writing music for art's sake? Is that the reason it's so popular in academia (because it pays?) Sorry to be so cynical, but I don't see why musicians are flocking to these idioms. What are the reasons in order of importance?



Just curious, do you think gaming is a waste of time or making music for games is a waste of time? The reason I'm asking is because some of the music I admire most comes from old school games. When I was growing up I was playing in metal bands but got into orchestration because of the Final Fantasy series and things like that. I admire those pieces more than anything I have heard in film.

And just full disclosure, I'm not in the music industry and really have no idea how any of it works.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 10, 2019)

robgb said:


> How is that even possible?


I'd rather read the book than watch the film generally. My husband loves movies, I usually watch anything but.


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## eph221 (Apr 10, 2019)

There have been alot of misreadings of the OP caused by various straw arguments. I asked for reasons in order of importance. Now coming from a *basket of creatives* (diveregent thinking being a great asset) I wasn't expecting much different, but can you please just list in order of importance? I know all of you are extremely busy and I am grateful.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 10, 2019)

With all due respect, I think you're asking a strange question. I'd say most of us are doing it as a job (either full time, or even casual) because we love it. Although I don't compose for film as my primary career, I would jump at a full-time opportunity if it ever became available in my lifetime. I can't think of any other career I would would choose if I had the choice. I get a total charge out of scoring a film (or live theatre) and find it very satisfying.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 10, 2019)

I'm not a composer (yet), and I don't watch movies much or play games. But I totally get the fun of scoring to film or game. Trying to match in music what you are seeing on the screen is a creative challenge. I think film would be more interesting to score to because it moves forward all the time. Games, from the little I've played (or more usually, watched others play) can be a problem because you have to deal with the repetitiveness of gameplay. Hearing the same music over and over as you repeat a task, especially as you get more frustrated, can make you want to turn the music off. Writing for that would be a big challenge.


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## WindcryMusic (Apr 10, 2019)

eph221 said:


> I don't even like films so this is hard for me to answer. I think computer games are a ridiculous waste of time. Is the reason it's now so popular because it pays better than writing music for art's sake? Is that the reason it's so popular in academia (because it pays?) Sorry to be so cynical, but I don't see why musicians are flocking to these idioms. What are the reasons in order of importance?



I agree with others in this thread that this is a strange question, but I'll try to answer what you are asking. But I can only answer for myself, not for why "musicians" (plural) are doing so; I'd guess that the number of discrete answers would approximately equal the number of musicians responding. But as for me:

1) The kind of music I enjoy writing most is (IMO) better suited for film and/or video than for just about any other purpose.
2) It's a challenge, and when I create a cue that is successful in conveying the emotion of a scene I get enormous satisfaction from that.
3) I enjoy quality dramatic movies and television almost as much as I enjoy music, and I tend to agree with something that I once read that said "films are the preeminent artistic medium of the last century", even though music is still #1 for me in my personal spectrum of entertainment. A great film or television moment, coupled with the perfect music, can affect me like nothing else can, including music on its own. So your suggestion that writing music "for art's sake" is something distinct from writing film music is not an axiom I can regard as valid.

One thing that is not anywhere near my list of reasons is what you've suggested about money being the motivating factor. I certainly haven't made much money doing this to date, but that doesn't mean I am going to stop trying. And if in the end I never make much money doing this, I'll still be glad to have done what I could (although making some decent money at it would obviously be preferable).

I also enjoy computer games, but to date I haven't been inclined to try to write any music for them because I feel that the modular nature of such compositions might not be as appealing to my compositional sensibilities as is the linear storytelling of film. But then again, never say never ...


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## GtrString (Apr 10, 2019)

Dont know, Ive never had a job.


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## visiblenoise (Apr 10, 2019)

I have yet to make money through music, but I think I would love to have this as a job! I don't share the same opinion of film and video games, so even when the job was at its roughest, I think I would take solace in the fact that I could actually appreciate the work I was paid to do. I've never had that luxury, so anything consumer-facing would be a step up, but it can only be better if it was music-related.

Anyway, it's not like film/game composers are forced to write sappy pop music... at worst, the score comes out inoffensive.


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## mscp (Apr 11, 2019)

eph221 said:


> I don't even like films so this is hard for me to answer. I think computer games are a ridiculous waste of time. Is the reason it's now so popular because it pays better than writing music for art's sake? Is that the reason it's so popular in academia (because it pays?) Sorry to be so cynical, but I don't see why musicians are flocking to these idioms. What are the reasons in order of importance?



I'm not sure I understand your post.

A lot of people dislike Justin Bieber, but he's one of the most popular kiddos in music. Why? The question should be - why not? I don't like his style, but it really doesn't matter because I'm not alone in this world. I'm honestly happy for him because it proves that - regardless whether I dislike someone to the core or absolutely love him/her, there's always a place for an artist in this world. Those who don't think something is not artistic because they don't like it should learn a tad more about humanities. 

The way people end up working on something is relative to their "fate". Some love it; some do it for the money ... just like in ANY other job. 

I don't know where you get the "flocking to..." idea, but I don't see it this way. Perhaps these people who are "flocking" simply want a change? Perhaps they want to be the next Hans Zimmer just like someone wants to become a computer scientist because Steve Jobs/Bill Gates inspired him? Too many reasons arise.

I may be wrong, but the way you wrote it seems like you're somehow angry at the fact something is popular just because you absolutely hate it.


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## Leon Willett (Apr 11, 2019)

More importantly: is 2019 the year that oboes make a comeback?


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## bryla (Apr 11, 2019)

Leon Willett said:


> More importantly: is 2019 the year that oboes make a comeback?


No way. Oboes had their chance in 2017 but missed it. I wouldn't bet on their comeback for another 15-20 years.


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## Dave Connor (Apr 11, 2019)

Stravinsky would be an interesting study on this subject. He had real financial concerns (as do we all) even though he was a composition giant. His friend Artur Rubinstein advised him to concertize (perform) to bolster his earnings. Stravinsky followed that advice and it was a real answer for him. Even so Stravinsky was never able to bring himself to score film as much as he loved the medium. It seems there was some sort of a conflict with the high standards of his art that ultimately prevented it (as well as his unrealistic demands for time in writing a score and his stiff financial demands which people seemed willing to pay.)

I imagine there are as many scenarios as there are composers as to how they support themselves with their gifts. Ives used his insurance company to support himself and was brilliant in the field and an uncompromising artist. If the question is, _Do many people end up doing something that is a compromise of their original artistic goals, _I don’t think there is any question that countless people have by necessity found themselves in a job _related_ to their art that they don’t love or may even dislike.


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## dgburns (Apr 11, 2019)

Dave Connor said:


> Stravinsky would be an interesting study on this subject. He had real financial concerns (as do we all) even though he was a composition giant. His friend Artur Rubinstein advised him to concertize (perform) to bolster his earnings. Stravinsky followed that advice and it was a real answer for him. Even so Stravinsky was never able to bring himself to score film as much as he loved the medium. It seems there was some sort of a conflict with the high standards of his art that ultimately prevented it (as well as his unrealistic demands for time in writing a score and his stiff financial demands which people seemed willing to pay.)
> 
> I imagine there are as many scenarios as there are composers as to how they support themselves with their gifts. Ives used his insurance company to support himself and was brilliant in the field and an uncompromising artist. If the question is, _Do many people end up doing something that is a compromise of their original artistic goals, _I don’t think there is any question that countless people have by necessity found themselves in a job _related_ to their art that they don’t love or may even dislike.



Hey Dave- what a great post. We tend to forget the circumstances of the past- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

Until now, I've made a living writing music, I can certainly sympathize with his struggles, especially with wanting more freedom with time/creative vision/budget. Every project I ever did felt like a compromise of one kind or another. It could be that success finds those that are willing to surrender to the greater good in that regard- certainly not something you see written on any composer slogan or website. (mr.director, yes I'll write music for you till the cows come home and you have what you need)

Writing for media requires you to work with others. Naturally it forces their musicology on you. We don't talk about that often in a positive light around here. A strange by-product of needing to work meant tackling projects that required creating music in a genre/style I wasn't familiar with, and the surprising emotion of falling in love with genres I either despised or felt neutral or ambivalent towards as a passive listener. It also forces you to learn how other people go about creating music- I am in a perpetual state of wonder at just how vastly different were all are, how we create, and the scope that is 'music' to the music listening consumer out there.

Writing for tv/film is a service. It's not about losing yourself or selling out, but rather using your skills to help others get where they are trying to go. The joy should come from feeling helpful and purposeful. 

It's not for everyone. But maybe that's a good thing.


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## Dave Connor (Apr 11, 2019)

dgburns said:


> Writing for tv/film is a service. It's not about losing yourself or selling out, but rather using your skills to help others get where they are trying to go. The joy should come from feeling helpful and purposeful.


dg, an extremely valid point: the benefits of finding yourself in situations and relationships that enhance your life enormously even though the artistic merits may not be ideal. Certainly writing and orchestrating for film has been that for me, though there have been opportunities to compose exactly as I would like even on a commercial film. Not to mention finding yourself conducting 75 world class players at Warner Bros., which would be difficult to make happen even if you were a successful pure composer.

So yes, I agree. The tangential aspects of earning a living _somehow_ can have very pleasant aspects and opportunities one may have not sought initially. As you mentioned, _collaboration_ is certainly high on the list of those of value.


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## NoamL (Apr 11, 2019)

Agreed with @dgburns . Music is just one part of a giant team trying to help the director & producers achieve their vision. Film music is anything but "music for art's sake."

Also there is constantly cross pollination between the "art music" world and the film world. I have a copy of the original _The Matrix_ score where Don Davis makes a note to the orchestrator about how the score is imitating medieval isorhythms in one section and the 20thcentury techniques of Lutoslawski in the next. There is plenty of room for creativity when there's a strong understanding between the director and composer. Just think about the Joker's music in _The Dark Knight_ and how there wasn't really any precedent for scoring movies like that in 2008.

Very often it seems like this forum thinks composing is about knowing music when it's much more about knowing film.

The joy of scoring comes from when you have a marriage of film & music where the music clearly elevates what is happening on screen (more emotion, more meaning, more excitement) and the film is also making the music feel like something more.

That alchemical relationship is impossible to predict. Personally I will throw ideas against the screen and suddenly one will work. But I have also worked for composers who seemed to know EXACTLY what will work. I helped one composer on a children's TV show where there were a lot of guest actors. And because the TV show wasn't the biggest thing in the world, some of the actors were slumming it, phoning it in, and others weren't very capable to begin with. But the composer always had an ability to take a scene that felt cringey and stupid and elevate it to make it feel like real storytelling.

Another thing people underestimate from what I read here is that it's far more about tempo & harmony than melody. Even John Williams has said that timing the scene is one of the most important parts of his work. Finding the exact right tempo has nothing to do with music theory and everything to do with feeling out the film.

All of this is to say that I don't think most film composers are "Frustrated Concert Composers." The very best film composers, the ones who are really in demand to score 5+ films every year, are in demand for skills that don't have much to do with writing complete standalone pieces of music.


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## Christof (Apr 12, 2019)

What I love the most about scoring to picture is the process of creation.
It's like painting on a white wall.


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## Daryl (Apr 12, 2019)

NoamL said:


> All of this is to say that I don't think most film composers are "Frustrated Concert Composers." The very best film composers, the ones who are really in demand to score 5+ films every year, are in demand for skills that don't have much to do with writing complete standalone pieces of music.



This is a very important point. Composer (as in for concert works), and film composer are not the same thing. In fact theoretically one can write a good film "score" using only sound design. It all depends on what the film requires. I think of it as a Venn diagram. You have a set of film composers, a set of composers, and there is a large intersection.

In terms of whether or not it's "just another job", the answer is that it is a job, but it is a very different job to most others. You have to be able to take your musician hat on and off to suit the picture. What works best for picture may, at times, be bereft of any traditional musicality. In theses cases the bigger picture, so to speak, is crucial to keep in mind. However, at other times, the picture may need the music to take the lead, and here you put your composer hat firmly on.

I think one of the problems for aspiring composers is to be equally satisfied with a score that serves the picture, but does nothing for them musically, as they are with a score where they can really flex their composer chops. This is the part of the job that makes it a "job" in my view.


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## StevenOBrien (Apr 12, 2019)

I've come to realize over the years that different styles/disciplines of music are fundamentally more similar than they are different.

When I was younger, I used to listen to Mozart, metal, avant-garde music, film music, and think "Wow, these are so incredibly alien to each other". Now I listen and I hear that they're all fundamentally the same, just with different rules and varying levels of quality. The style isn't really what matters. The style is the language, not the content.

So... I enjoy writing music. I go for what pays the best, and I don't really care, as long as I get to write music.


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