# Ed Sheeran settles Lawsuit.



## novaburst (Apr 11, 2017)

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/music/ed-sheeran-settles-lawsuit-over-copied-hit-song-photograph/ar-BBzFZz9?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartandhp

It does happen be careful the law does recognize phrase and notes and chords if done in a particular way the law will back the composer who believes he or her composition has been copied

I think this should be a lesson to all in the music industry to be more original and come up with new and fresh ideas.


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## zacnelson (Apr 11, 2017)

This is good to see. It's a shame these lawsuits don't occur more often.


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## novaburst (Apr 11, 2017)

Yes like in many cases well known members here, have had there tracks ripped off from SoundCloud and sold to audio sites for down load, and nothing ever happens to those who ripped it off


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## zacnelson (Apr 11, 2017)

Yep it's happened to me recently, I had a song on a popular TV show and within hours it was for sale on numerous illegal websites and on various YouTube videos getting thousands of views


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 11, 2017)

So whoever used this progression in a commercial song first, could sue all these people...?


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## rvb (Apr 11, 2017)

zacnelson said:


> This is good to see. It's a shame these lawsuits don't occur more often.


I have to disagree, especially in Pop music, where everything is copied and similar to each other anyway. The chord progressions from Ed Sheeran aren't particularly 'Bach' orientated or 'John Coltrane' complicated. And since there are pretty much three different progressions in all pop music it just seems like the one with more money would always win. Ah well. Haha, that was my rant of the day!


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## zacnelson (Apr 11, 2017)

It's NOT just about the chord progression in this particular Ed Sheeran case, moreover I don't see anybody claiming anywhere that it was the chord progression which Sheeran stole.


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## rvb (Apr 11, 2017)

zacnelson said:


> It's NOT just about the chord progression in this particular Ed Sheeran case, moreover I don't see anybody claiming anywhere that it was the chord progression which Sheeran stole.


Ah okay yeah true, I should've read the link first! I was merely looking at the chord progression post before me in all honesty. My apologies.


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 11, 2017)

My post was meant as a joke. 

Although it does also raise a point of where you draw the line...?


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## novaburst (Apr 11, 2017)

I i think that it is very clear when it is a rip off,

Especially when there is a very popular song what normally happens is the one doing the rip offten sees them self as the ones that should be taking all the credit.

The funny thing is to rip some one off takes some good talent and skill, and you wonder why they just did not do there own thing in the first place.

There are two party's involved at the beginning, the original composer, and the rip off composer, there are some very tell tell signs and give aways that the original composer will hear and will be able to explain in a court of law and to specialist at the time, a bit like a defective.


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## Luke W (Apr 11, 2017)

I worked for a "forensic musicologist" for several years. He was an expert brought in to testify about copyright infringement in court cases like this. I transcribed temp tracks and the resulting compositions so they could be compared and checked for infringement (ad companies for TV commercials often have the music checked for infringement before they air). The "4 chords of pop music" falls into the safe zone of "stock genre chord progressions" that are not considered infringement.

Most of the time, infringement involved a combination of elements. A similar chord progression and melody combined with similar groove and instrumentation. Case in point from my own experience: a Chevy ad used Outkast's Hey Ya as the temp music, and the composer copied the drum groove, tempo and instrumentation (lots of perc and horns). But no single element was identical: the drum groove popped in the same places but was not note-for-note. Same with the horns - not the same figures, but they used similar rhythms and laid in the track just like the Outkast horns. The musicologist told them not to use the track, that it was too close based on the combination of elements I just described. They pushed back, pointing out none of the horn licks or guitar riffs were identical.

They ran the commercial exactly one time. A phone call was made to Chevy. The ad never ran again.


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## Kejero (Apr 11, 2017)

Copyright is like patents: it was invented to allow the original inventor to make money off their invention for a long enough period to recover their investments. In that sense I'm strongly in favor of the concept and I find it hard to argue against it. At the same time, taking existing works and ideas is what allows the world, technology and art to grow. _Everything_ that _everybody_ does today, borrows from the work of our ancestors. Copyright lawsuits have sadly become a business on its own, so whether copyright cases are a good or a bad thing can really only be judged case-by-case. In this case, it doesn't sound like either of those songs took a lot of effort to make, so I don't give a shit.


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## ghostnote (Apr 11, 2017)

Take a listen and decide for yourself:


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## novaburst (Apr 11, 2017)

Composers invest quite a bit of time in there musical creation, a lot of hard work, days months, or even years can spent on your compersition, your invention.

Unfortunately there are other composers that don't give a rat's tail how long you spent they will just rip it off and say thanks very much.

It's just the same some one taking your car purse, mobile phone they really do believe it belongs to them and have no remorse or sadness they have just stolen your property.

Hopefully it's these types of people that get found out.


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## ZenFaced (Apr 11, 2017)

This is not first time Sheeran was accused of this, right? Didn't he come under heat for doing this with another song he recorded?


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## AdamAlake (Apr 11, 2017)

Eh, this is pretty ridiculous considering the fact that for every segment of music you will ever write, you can find a piece of music that has already used it.


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 11, 2017)

novaburst said:


> I think this should be a lesson to all in the music industry to be more original and come up with new and fresh ideas.



I disagree.

While I do respect copyright laws, I think many of these lawsuits are just ways for lawyers to make easy money. The plaintiffs get some quick cash, the defendants want to be done with the whole thing, and the lawyers move on to the next case to make more easy money.

Originality has very little to do with how the lawyers see these things. They are paid to basically shake people down from being inspired by other people's music. So no matter how original we try to be, we will always draw inspiration from something else.


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## mc_deli (Apr 11, 2017)

The Coldplay Satriani one is quite something. Note for note melody and tempo. Dismissed, presumably for a seven figure sum.


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## novaburst (Apr 11, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> Originality has very little to do with how the lawyers see these things. They are paid to basically shake people down from being inspired by other people's music. So no matter how original we try to be, we will always draw inspiration from something else.



I guess we can talk like this becuase most of us are just looking from the outside and never experienced copyright theft.

So just say anything we feel but generally when it happens to us and it hurts us, then we start to change our school of thought.

Music inspires everyone generally, even those who don't compose.

Some compersitions Inspire so much you will get many challenging them selves to see if they can do the exact same thing and i must say i have heard some very inspirational mock ups 

When you're inspired to copy a compersition or part of a compersition and then perade to the world........It's me, i did it, it's my creativity, i should get all the credit and with all the credit all the money too.

When your inspired to do such a thing then you need to wander was it insperation or was it self gratitude.

This copy theft is not only in the music world, it's in mobile phones, building, cars, paintings.

Any type of inspiration should course you to excel in your own creation, or strive to get better at what you do,


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## ZenFaced (Apr 11, 2017)

My biggest fear is that I end up writing something I think is cool and it ends up sounding strikingly similar to someone else's work either by coincidence or because I heard at some point in the past and the melody/pattern was just engrained in my subconscious and I repeated it thinking it was my own. I'm sure it happens to all of us sooner or later.


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## novaburst (Apr 12, 2017)

I have heard recording that sound similar, in the sense that they chose a common chord progression, but it was also clear niether copied the other in one sense they sounded similar in another sense they were worlds apart, 

It's when a composer takes some ones matiaral and sits down with it analysis it then goes away and uses it for there own and they try to cover up some parts or try to make some parts different but it stands out like a soar thumb, becuase they captured all the essence and mood of the song and it's that that gave them away.


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## dannymc (Apr 12, 2017)

this is why i've always had a problem with that method of analyzing some else's sound and breaking it down to try copy it. i know its probably a good way to learn and i know lots of people perfect writing mock ups of other peoples material before they write their own stuff but my fear would be that would end up sending my own potential creativity in the wrong direction doing that. instead i just compose in a way that sounds good to me but inevitably subconsciously i'm being influenced by other peoples work, i just don't do it consciously. 

Danny


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 12, 2017)

It does spur creativity though. We wouldn't have modern dubstep if there weren't a thousand bedroom producer kids trying to copy Noisia baselines around 10-15 years ago...


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## zacnelson (Apr 12, 2017)

I'd be quite happy to live in a world without dubstep


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## macmac (Apr 12, 2017)

I think we never can be sure that what we write is not close to something else, because there is no possible way to hear every single composition in the world. On the other hand, I've heard famous songs that were very similar but didn't result in a lawsuit (that I know of, anyway).

Chord progressions had been exempt in copyright claims, are they not now? What concerns me in this rise of lawsuits, is the jury... who likely doesn't even know what the term chord progression means. So a jury, listening to a song with the same chord progressions or rhythm, trying to understand what an expert's testimony even means, would likely say that it's the same song since progressions/rhythms are an obvious part of a work. So if rhythm is now also suspect, then what DO we write! Latin rhythms as an example, hip hop, etc., they are always similar and to a jury may sound identical.

Add to the issue the widespread usage of prefab loops, drum grooves, sample libraries, presets, etc...a jury would see it as identical because those actually are. So because those are sold to masses of people who buy and use them, does a lawyer take that into account?

Which brings me to another question...do you have E&O insurance and/or LLC?


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## novaburst (Apr 12, 2017)

macmac said:


> I think we never can be sure that what we write is not close to something else, because there is no possible way to hear every single composition in the world.



Yes that is correct, i am quite certain we have sounded like someone we have not met before, i mean look at me i sound just like John Williams and I have never met him...Ok that's a joke but what i am saying i am sure you have seen some one that looks similar to someone else, i have been told that and may you have been told the same .

I think it would be in this sense that our music will sound alike.


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## ghostnote (Apr 12, 2017)

These kind of things will always pop up, not because of similarities, but because of the crazy money behind it.

To break this down:
Led Zeppelin/Taurus - No plagiarism
Coldplay/Satriani - obvious plagiarism, altough probably not intentional
Pharrel and Thicke/Marvin Gaye - Contoversial, because it's not directly plagiarism. The big problem here was that Thicke admitted on camera that it was influenced by Gaye. Opportunity and greed did the rest.

I'm sure there will be more of those "blurred lines" cases coming in future.


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## macmac (Apr 12, 2017)

Sheeran made the same mistake with Thinking Out Loud by going into a Let's Get it On medley in live performance, captured of course on YT.


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## novaburst (Apr 12, 2017)

ghostnote said:


> Pharrel and Thicke/Marvin Gaye - Contoversial, because it's not directly plagiarism.



I remember this one and became very personal becuase the family of Mr Gay got well involved.

I think they would done better to write to the family and say we want to do one of your son's song, they probably would have said yes


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## ghostnote (Apr 12, 2017)

novaburst said:


> I think they would done better to write to the family and say we want to do one of your son's song, they probably would have said yes


Nope, I can't see why. It wasn't a direct rip off. One's even in Major the other in Minor. It's all about the cowbell. Watch the interviews with the family members.


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## novaburst (Apr 12, 2017)

ghostnote said:


> It wasn't a direct rip off. One's even in Major the other in Minor.



Well spotted on the major minor, the family got heaverly involved, i mean it's not like they need the cash, and it was there boy that past on,

Some one heard something that seemed to belong to there son, it really does not seem like one of those sue becuase we can cases. 

That seemed like do the you dare rip my boy off.


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## ZenFaced (Apr 12, 2017)

macmac said:


> Sheeran made the same mistake with Thinking Out Loud by going into a Let's Get it On medley in live performance, captured of course on YT.



That's the other song I was thinking of


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## Calazzus (Apr 12, 2017)

ghostnote said:


> Take a listen and decide for yourself:



Meh, doesn't sound law suit worthy IMHO.


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## mwarsell (Apr 13, 2017)

The Fugees' "Ready or Not" vs Enya's "Boedicia" got me outraged when I found out.


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## GdT (Apr 13, 2017)

I heard a great piece of music on the radio; the Sabre Dance by Aram Khachaturian. Wow; what a brilliant exciting piece!



Now I recently had a gift from the Far East of a bird whistle (that means Asia for us Brits here in UK, not NY for you Californians). It is a little bamboo pipe about 5” / 12cm long with a little sliding stop (bit like a miniature Swanny whistle). And I have been having some conversations with the birds out the back.

So I thought I would have a go at playing what I remember of the tune of the Sabre Dance on my bird whistle (not something you would really like to hear). “Verging on the ridiculous” you might suggest. (Didn’t Shakespeare say that?) How can a tiny whistle sound remotely like all that heavy brass and drums? Well after a good old time piping away; I thought…. “That sounds familiar”. Yes it reminds me of another piece of music which is possibly my all-time favourite piece of amusing joke music. Now I am not in any way suggesting any kind of plagiarism or copyright infringement there. Now the piece of music I have in mind is something that some folks like me absolutely adore and others just can’t stand – “The Most Annoying Thing in the World”. So, I won’t name it here, lighten up, and here is a video link:



A very odd coincidence?


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## Kejero (Apr 13, 2017)

@GdT I don't get it? 

Btw, Axel F is originally the theme song from Beverly Hills Cop. I honestly can't hear any similarities between Sabre Dance and Axel F (either version).


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## zacnelson (Apr 13, 2017)

I can't hear the similarity either


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## novaburst (Apr 13, 2017)

No comment


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## reddognoyz (Apr 13, 2017)

I was involved in a lawsuit for ripping of the Bonanza Theme because the visual was a burning map reveal, just like the beginning of Bonanza. 
The music bore no resemblance whatsoever to the Bonanza theme, it was in fact a blatant and intentional rip off of the Rawhide theme for Nick-at-Night. Nick pulled the promo, and nothing more became of it. A couple months later they put it back in rotation.


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## robgb (Apr 14, 2017)

They sound similar but not the same. Thing is, you could throw a rock and hit twenty other songs that sound similar. Maybe a hundred. In this case I'd say it's a coincidence, not a rip off and I'm sure Sheeran merely settled to get it over with. Especially in light of the Marvin Gaye verdict, which was completely and utterly ridiculous.


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## jamwerks (Apr 14, 2017)

They don't sound the same mainly because imo they're mixed differently and the lead vox... well... his voice sounds different.

But seem like a clear case of copy to me. Pretty clear why mister copycat paid out. Even with 3 chords and tonal melodies, we could go on for a thousand years, and original stuff will still be and sound original. The possibilities are in the trillions. When there's a doubt about copy, it's usually copy.

That said there's still a lot of artistry in those who take something of yours, add their own sauce, and make something great. They should maybe do co-autorship or arrangement deals from the onset.


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## Ashermusic (Apr 14, 2017)

jamwerks said:


> When there's a doubt about copy, it's usually copy.




Sorry, but I have been in the business for over 45 years and that does not gel with my experience.


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## NoamL (Apr 15, 2017)

We should have a forum game, *Spot The Temp*

Start with an easy one.... (55:24)


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## Rctec (Apr 15, 2017)

You guys seem to forget something: most artists are insured against these sort of claims. Which makes it easy for someone to see a way of making some easy cash.
Someone tried to sue me for copyright infringement recently, and everyone told me to just let the insurance company settle it, which they would have done. 
But I couldn't stand the idea of someone getting away with a groundless and - quite frankly - personally hurtful claim.
The first thing that happens seems to be that every paper writes about it, and in a way the damage is done. No one seems to care if it turns out to be dismissed or just spurious nonsense or - that people know that in most cases, the insurance company will pay up to make it go away.
To fight the accusation is very, very time-consuming, disruptive and costly. Not just for me, but the people that worked for me and have to give long dispositions, etc.
Obviously, I won the case. But it's still not something you want to go through - or, for that matter, ever put anyone else through. So be very careful about how you view these cases...
An old saying is: "where there's a hit, there is a writ".


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## AdamAlake (Apr 15, 2017)

NoamL said:


> We should have a forum game, *Spot The Temp*
> 
> Start with an easy one.... (55:24)




Sounds like a generic ostinato trailer sequence to me, what did you have in mind?


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## Kejero (Apr 16, 2017)

AdamAlake said:


> Sounds like a generic ostinato trailer sequence to me, what did you have in mind?


I admit, I feel it... gravitates to something I've heard before


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## Kejero (Apr 16, 2017)

Rctec said:


> most artists are insured against these sort of claims.


That's unsettling. (No pun intended.)


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## AdamAlake (Apr 16, 2017)

Rctec said:


> You guys seem to forget something: most artists are insured against these sort of claims. Which makes it easy for someone to see a way of making some easy cash.
> Someone tried to sue me for copyright infringement recently, and everyone told me to just let the insurance company settle it, which they would have done.
> But I couldn't stand the idea of someone getting away with a groundless and - quite frankly - personally hurtful claim.
> The first thing that happens seems to be that every paper writes about it, and in a way the damage is done. No one seems to care if it turns out to be dismissed or just spurious nonsense or - that people know that in most cases, the insurance company will pay up to make it go away.
> ...



Which piece was it, if you do not mind me asking?


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## Leon Willett (Apr 16, 2017)

terminator? I dunno


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## Anders Bru (Apr 16, 2017)

NoamL said:


> We should have a forum game, *Spot The Temp*
> 
> Start with an easy one.... (55:24)



Sounds a lot like Johann Johannsson's score for Sicario


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## Smikes77 (Apr 16, 2017)

Anders Bru said:


> Sounds a lot like Johann Johannsson's score for Sicario




Wow. Well spotted!


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## novaburst (Apr 16, 2017)

Rctec said:


> I won the case. But it's still not something you want to go through - or, for that matter, ever put anyone else through. So be very careful about how you view these cases...
> An old saying is: "where there's a hit, there is a writ".



Sad to hear you went through that, but I also feel we cant be dismissive about musicians genuinely being ripped off,
It does happen, but there is a sense of its ok, its all art. and courts and lawyers should stay out of it.


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## novaburst (Apr 16, 2017)

Smikes77 said:


> Wow. Well spotted!



agreed it sounds the same.



Anders Bru said:


> Sounds a lot like Johann Johannsson's score for Sicario





Smikes77 said:


> Wow. Well spotted!


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## NoamL (Apr 16, 2017)

That's the one


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## AdamAlake (Apr 16, 2017)

Going through the comparison of the Sheeran song again, this is such a bullshit case. First, it is just the chorus, and the chord progression and the rhythmic and intervalic figures are just so generic in the realm of pop - combined with the huge time difference between the songs, you have to wonder just how many pretty much identical phrases have been made in that time. This is a total case of someone being jealous of someone getting more attention.


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## NoamL (Apr 16, 2017)

BTW (it goes without saying but I should have said it anyway) I'm confident that in 99% of such cases it's the director refusing to let go of a temp. 

Temping really does make the composer's job harder. Usually because temping harms the edit. Check this out -

(2:34-5:00)


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## AdamAlake (Apr 16, 2017)

Anders Bru said:


> Sounds a lot like Johann Johannsson's score for Sicario





NoamL said:


> BTW (it goes without saying but I should have said it anyway) I'm confident that in 99% of such cases it's the director refusing to let go of a temp.
> 
> Temping really does make the composer's job harder. Usually because temping harms the edit. Check this out -
> 
> (2:34-5:00)




Otherwise good video, but the Antman comparison was just awful. The tone off the movie and the personality of the character did not call for any dramatic emotion in that scene - did we believe the emotion of crushing failure? No, because he did not give a damn and hand no reason to at that point of his character development.


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## Flaneurette (Apr 19, 2017)

ZenFaced said:


> My biggest fear is that I end up writing something I think is cool and it ends up sounding strikingly similar to someone else's work either by coincidence or because I heard at some point in the past and the melody/pattern was just engrained in my subconscious and I repeated it thinking it was my own. I'm sure it happens to all of us sooner or later.



Happened to me today on Youtube. Some crook company decided to claim 9 copyright claims on something I wrote... which was 100% original.

Right now I have 3 businesses (wolves) breathing down my neck claiming my work:

1. Claimant: CD Baby
2. Claimant: Kontor New Media Music. On behalf of: Party Dope
3. Claimant: NaxosofAmerica. On behalf of: Delos

It's getting annoying indeed... I think I will take everything down and host everything myself on my own website. These record companies are getting greedy with their automated scans. They just let a program scan all video's and if there is the slightest inkling of a coincidence, like 4 notes, they strike it and redirect your work to their iTunes or something similar and monetize it. Then I have to dispute it, take time to file a counter claim and if they persist they can take my channel down. And they get away with it, because Youtube doesn't care about the some lonely nobody composer. It is disheartening to have someone else claim copyright on something I wrote. This copyright thing has destroyed music. And it continues to do so.

I think I won't release my music anymore. And keep it all to myself. I wrote it for myself in the first place. Why share these intimate musing of my soul, only to have a bunch of crooks steamroll over it and steal it. I'm done with it.


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## NoamL (Jan 22, 2018)

Anders Bru said:


> Sounds a lot like Johann Johannsson's score for Sicario




And now it's made it into Trailer music! This track is pretty kickass though so it's all good


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## Prockamanisc (Jan 22, 2018)

If you slowed down both of those songs (especially the original), it sounds like Radiohead:


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## Fab (Jan 23, 2018)

NoamL said:


> And now it's made it into Trailer music! This track is pretty kickass though so it's all good



ha, yeah the 'bendy note' seems to have made an appearance in many things since Sicario....but the example you posted is it's own thing, definitely.


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## brett (Jan 23, 2018)

Rctec said:


> You guys seem to forget something: most artists are insured against these sort of claims.
> ".



@Rctec what type of insurance is it? Personal indemnity? I recognize it may be called different names in different parts of the world


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