# Miserable Performance on 7700 machine....



## woodslanding (Jan 17, 2018)

I've been running my setup on my 5775c at about 35% cpu. I'm hosting 15 vsts in a mixer configuration. I just bought a 7700k processor on sale for black friday. Well, finally got everything installed, and cpu percentage is off the charts! I'm running 70% before I even load up a vst in a channel! And I am getting huge dropouts running one instance of iris standalone at 128 block size.

Does anyone know when the new intel exploit fixes were put in windows? I'm wondering if that is the issue. I downloaded a fresh win10 iso just after christmas before I'd heard about the exploit, and I'm wondering if the fix is in it (I haven't updated it since installing) It is version 1709,build number 16299.192.

Could a bad mobo give these results? It's a GIGABYTE Z270M-DH3 UD 1151 MATX. I would not expect cpu to run high, just to have clicks at low cpu levels.... I'll try updating the bios and see if it helps. Too bad, I liked this mobo. It has a couple of old-style pci slots, which I'd like.


----------



## EvilDragon (Jan 17, 2018)

Might not be the CPU. Did you disable all power saving options, checked DPC latency?

Something doesn't sound right here. Exploit fixes were added on Jan 3rd update, but they didn't influence CPU usage in a DAW project over here, at all...


----------



## chimuelo (Jan 17, 2018)

Motherboards rarely come with updates.
At the rate of Intel chipsets manufacturers have zero time to mature products.
I built a 7700k for my son and it works fine. ASRock Z270.
Try the latest BIOS. Boot it from USB.

Those 5775C CPUs w/ disabled GFX and a discrete Card are great Audio CPUs.
Mine is a spare, but I check it out monthly when I clone drives and it’s 1ghz slower than my 4790k CPUs but gets the same work done.


----------



## Sami (Jan 17, 2018)

This stinks to heaven like a driver issue, not a CPU issue. You sure the Babyface is alright?


----------



## woodslanding (Jan 17, 2018)

Just downloaded the new drivers for the babyface. I would expect a driver issue to cause spikes at low cpu, not merely high cpu.... I'll have a look at latency. I've got min and max power at 100% in power options, but that's all the stuff I've done so far. Good to know that this iso is prob. pre-exploit. I'll update bios, and check latency for spikes.

It's actually likely my host (usine) computes cpu such that latency is figured in, now that I think about it. CPU is computed as a percentage of block size required to compute the audio. So yeah, maybe a bad driver.

Good to know this is not expected, at least.....


----------



## woodslanding (Jan 17, 2018)

found the culprit... an old scsi adaptor pci card I put in and subsequently forgot about. Much happier now, although running a little higher cpu than the 5775c.

Interestingly, latency mon had nothing to say about it--showed max 175us latency. Not great, but usable at 128 samples I guess.

Thanks for the suggestions!!


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Jan 17, 2018)

woodslanding said:


> found the culprit... an old scsi adaptor pci card I put in and subsequently forgot about. Much happier now, although running a little higher cpu than the 5775c.
> 
> Interestingly, latency mon had nothing to say about it--showed max 175us latency. Not great, but usable at 128 samples I guess.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions!!


I recently had a similar experience where after just updating Windows (following a couple of days of changing some hardware) my computer was suddenly unusable due to spikes. It turned out that the sata connector on my blu ray drive was broken and so some of the pins weren't connecting and the storage controller was freaking out. In my case Latencymon was showing the spikes.


----------



## woodslanding (Feb 1, 2018)

actually cpu is still running much higher than the 5775c. 35-40% vs. 55-60%. Removing the card took it out of the 'complete unusability' category, though....

I've updated all the drivers, installed park control, set min processor to 100%. Nothing is spiking at all, it's just consistently high cpu on all cores.

I have the same settings in my host (# of cores, blocksize etc) as on the other machine, same plugins same host, m2 drives on both.... using babyfaces for audio.... really perplexed. I know the 5775 is a particularly good cpu for audio, but I wouldn't expect this. the 7700k actually benchmarks higher, although I realize that's a fairly low correlation to audio performance.

I'll keep digging, maybe I'll find something. I'll run through the audio performance checklists again, and make sure I didn't miss anything.


----------



## chimuelo (Feb 17, 2018)

Here’s a quote from a certified reviewer @ AnandTech about the i7 5775C.

“At this stage in history, memory bandwidths to the CPU were around 20 GB/s, compared to discrete graphics that were pushing 250GB/s. The memory bandwidth issue was not unnoticed by Intel, and so with Broadwell they introduced the 'Crystalwell' line of Broadwell processors: these featured the largest implementation of Intel's latest graphics design, paired with embedded DRAM silicon in the package. This 'eDRAM', up to 128MB of it, was a victim cache, allowing the processor to re-use data (like textures) that had been fetched from memory and already used at a rate of 50 GB/s (bi-directional). The ability to hold data relevant to graphics rendering closer to the processor, at a faster bandwidth than main memory, paired with Intel's best integrated graphics design, heralded a new halo product in the category. This eDRAM processor line also gave speed ups for other memory bandwidth limited tasks that reused data, as stated when we reviewed it. The big downside to this was price: adding a new bit of silicon to the package, by some accounts, was fairly cheap: but Intel sold them at a high premium, aimed at one specific customer with a fruit logo. Some parts were also made available to end-users, very briefly before being removed from sale, and it was quoted in other press that OEMs did not like the price.”

From the article on new AMD Ryzen 2 w/ GFX.
Looks like a great inexpensive cool live performance solution.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12425/marrying-vega-and-zen-the-amd-ryzen-5-2400g-review

We should do a review describing the benefits of using discrete GFX Card so the 128MBs Of Cache store Audio data.
Noticed it mentions Apple buying lots of Crystal Well CPUs.
Wonder where they are? Probably custom laptops due to low TDP.


----------



## woodslanding (Mar 1, 2018)

well, I'm not even using a graphics card in that machine! That's one upgrade I could do. I'd have to buy the ASROCK ITX mobo with the m.2 card on the back. Then I'd be able to put a video card in the pcie slot....

I may just sell the new machine, and build another one around a 5775 (if you can actually find one....)


----------



## woodslanding (Nov 11, 2018)

Revisiting this....

I bought an 8700K, but I haven't put it together. I read a comparison, at userBenchmark, and the difference between it and the 7700k was disheartening. I found a few more optimisations, but the 7700 is still really miserable. I get clicks any time I open or close a window, at 128 samples, running 20 or so tracks in reaper. VSTs and regular audio. A lot of fx, but still.... It can't run my live rig at all. 

Will the extra two cores help much, if I'm actually looking at a lower per-core speed? Anyone have experience with both of these?

5775c's are worth more now than 3 years ago, as are the motherboards that support them(!)


----------



## woodslanding (Nov 11, 2018)

okay looking here:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12526/the-asus-z370i-gaming-motherboard-review/6

Every board shown has dpc latency figures _*5x *_what my old z97 mobo has !!! seriously??


----------



## Pictus (Nov 12, 2018)

Try https://bandzoogle.com/blog/20-ways-to-optimize-your-windows-10-pc-for-music-production


----------



## woodslanding (Nov 12, 2018)

check!


----------



## Pictus (Nov 12, 2018)

More:
https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
https://forums.mydigitallife.net/threads/set-base-priority-idle-cpu-lowest-io-low-paging.74482/


----------



## Damarus (Nov 12, 2018)

Double check Firmware and drivers for your motherboard manufacturers website. Motherboard's don't ship with the newest firmware. Even if the 5775 was a better processor for whatever reason, it should not be that dramatic of a difference in performance.


----------



## woodslanding (Nov 12, 2018)

all right, that was complicated, had to login to even see the forum post:

https://forums.mydigitallife.net/threads/set-base-priority-idle-cpu-lowest-io-low-paging.74482/

I don't know what they are talking about at all. Can you explain further? Seems like it creates a context menu.... when would I select it, and what does it do?

There seems to be a lot of confusion/disagreement in the thread, but at least they understand what they are confused/disagreeing _about_ 

thanks,
-e


----------



## Pictus (Nov 12, 2018)

https://help.onapp.com/hc/en-us/articles/222047988-How-does-CPU-priority-work
"Imagine a PC like a grocery store with only two checkouts(CPU cores).
In the afternoon there are not so many customers(DAW/FireFox), so when
someone needs to go to checkout(CPU cores), there is always one available.
Later in the night a queue starts to form and customers have to wait, but
some of them push to the front of the queue(ones with higher priority),
whilst all other (lower priority) have to wait patiently for the line ahead to clear."

Also interesting https://bitsum.com/how-probalance-works/

Process Hacker
Can use Process Hacker to change the DAW "Priority"


----------



## woodslanding (Nov 12, 2018)

Wow thanks, that is super helpful! I'll try both of these, and see if either helps.

It sounds like cpuBalance only works on background processes.... how does that work with reaper? does it run its audio in background threads? I suppose it would.

Also in the forum above, folks were suggesting that putting i/o priority too high was counter productive. Where did you set yours? 

I noticed reaper itself has a priority setting in preferences. How do these interact?

I did disable the onboard audio drivers, as I never use the onboard audio, and that did bring dpc latency down a bit.... I suppose I could disable the ethernet also, as I don't use it. I'll try that.


----------



## woodslanding (Nov 12, 2018)

so I am re-reading the thread, and what's more confusing to me is the issue 'paging', which sounds like it is addressed with that script. I assume that is how often the program itself pulls things on or off disk. I never run out of RAM with the size of my current projects (could happen someday of course) so would that be a non-issue for me? Or is there a different meaning here?

Also, it sounds like that script only reduces priority. So would you look for _other_ processes to lower the priority of?

It also sounds like process hacker has to be running every time you want to run a program with a different priority, is that right, and that's part of the reason for the script?

edit: re-reading again.... so you can change the priority of apps from within the registry.... but I'm assuming that would not work for a portable install?


----------



## Pictus (Nov 12, 2018)

woodslanding said:


> Wow thanks, that is super helpful! I'll try both of these, and see if either helps.



I am glad to help.


> It sounds like cpuBalance only works on background processes.... how does that work with reaper? does it run its audio in background threads? I suppose it would.



I do not use cpuBalance.


> Also in the forum above, folks were suggesting that putting i/o priority too high was counter productive. Where did you set yours?



Above normal.


> I noticed reaper itself has a priority setting in preferences. How do these interact?


I do not know.


woodslanding said:


> so I am re-reading the thread, and what's more confusing to me is the issue 'paging', which sounds like it is addressed with that script. I assume that is how often the program itself pulls things on or off disk. I never run out of RAM with the size of my current projects (could happen someday of course) so would that be a non-issue for me? Or is there a different meaning here?



I guess is a non-issue.


> Also, it sounds like that script only reduces priority. So would you look for _other_ processes to lower the priority of?



Any superfluous extra stuff you may have installed...


> It also sounds like process hacker has to be running every time you want to run a program with a different priority, is that right, and that's part of the reason for the script?



Not for Priority, just use the option to SAVE(it is there bellow the Priority options).


> edit: re-reading again.... so you can change the priority of apps from within the registry.... but I'm assuming that would not work for a portable install?



I guess not.


----------



## rgames (Nov 12, 2018)

In my experience, adjusting CPU priority can help (a bit) but is almost always unnecessary in a stock system. Likewise with almost every other Windows tweak. If you've installed Windows 100% stock (did you?) then you shouldn't have to mess with anything unless you have some rogue piece of hardware and/or a bad driver.

I'd say start over with a 100% stock Windows installation and see if the problem persists. If so then it's almost always a driver and/or hardware problem. Video cards and network cards are the most common culprits (do you have some odd video card setup, like dual cards?). Registry tweaks, processor scheduling, etc. rarely have a meaningful effect in a stock system.

There is a long history of tweaking Windows - that's why people continue to do it. But those tweaks haven't been necessary in about 10 years and, in my experience, nowadays the tweaks almost always cause more problems than they resolve.

But here's another way to think about it - you say CPU usage went up - why is that an issue? What can you no longer do that you could do on the old machine? It sounds to me like old projects still run just fine, but at higher CPU usage. The old system ran your projects and the new system runs your projects, so why is CPU usage an issue? What can you not do on the new machine?

Yes, I think your machine can run "better". But it sounds like it's already "good enough".

rgames


----------



## woodslanding (Nov 12, 2018)

no, the higher cpu numbers manifest as clicks and pops in audio when running at low latency. In fact when I start to load up my setup to where it's pushing my old machine, (a click or pop now and again) the new one gets so garbaged you can no longer even recognise the original sounds....

That said, I need to re-check with the onboard audio disabled. That's brought myhighest reported latency down about 30%, and that might make a difference. That's one thing that is not on the typical 'tweak' list.



Pictus said:


> Not for Priority, just use the option to SAVE(it is there bellow the Priority options).


oh cool, thanks. That makes half my questions irrelevant


----------



## chimuelo (Nov 12, 2018)

My 5775C has less than 100 hours on it.
It’s my spare for now.
The most audio friendly low watt CPU I’ve ever had.

I got the 8086k delided just for lower temps.
Supermicro Q370 board which runs cool too.
Can’t wait to get time to try that out.

I’m just milking all the H97s first since they are so damn stable for 1U builds.

Good luck.
Lots of good advice here.


----------

