# Trumpet transposition



## Rafael (Oct 9, 2014)

Hello everybody. Sorry if I am wrong posting this here. I would greatly appreciate help with a problem I have when trying to enter notes in a trumpet in F track. The score is writen in Eb, but the trumpet stave have neither flats nor sharps. Since the score has three flats and my DAW doesn't allow me to assing a particular key signature to a track I need to transpose the notes of that track to Eb...As you can infere by what I write I am not much skilled with harmony or music theory :oops: , yet I hope what I write makes sense...So my question is: how to transpose those notes to fit the score in Eb? I am attaching a pic. The trumpet stave is the fourth from above...Hearty greetings from Spain and thanks in advance, guys... o=<


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## Rob (Oct 9, 2014)

where's the trumpet staff? The second and third staves seem to be the french horns... anyway, you should transpose the track down a perfect fifth. When an instrument in F plays a "C" they actually play a concert "F"
It is typical of the french horns not to put key signatures in the staff

EDIT sorry Rafael, I have now seen that you say trumpet is fourth staff... I would transpose up a perfect fourth then, 5 semitones.


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## Rafael (Oct 9, 2014)

Thanks Rob, you hit the nail on the head, second and third staves are french horns, and the fourth one I am assuming is for trumpets since the score says at the start "Trombe" (italian for trumpets?) for that stave...Horns don't have flats either so should I lower both, horns and trumpets, down a perfect fifth to fit the key signature of the score in Eb?...Thanks again..


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## Rob (Oct 9, 2014)

Rafael @ 9th October 2014 said:


> Thanks Rob, you hit the nail on the head, second and third staves are french horns, and the fourth one I am assuming is for trumpets since the score says at the start "Trombe" (italian for trumpets?) for that stave...Horns don't have flats either so should I lower both, horns and trumpets, down a perfect fifth to fit the key signature of the score in Eb?...Thanks again..



Horns go down a fifth, and trumpets up a fourth... I assume this because otherwise their part sounds too low...
and yes, "trombe" is the italian for trumpets


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## Rafael (Oct 9, 2014)

Fantastic..... o-[][]-o Thaaaaanks, Rob.....! o=?


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## clarkus (Oct 9, 2014)

Um, I may be reading this too quickly, or missing something, but the advice is incorrect, presuming you are trying to prepare parts for a real tpt. or horn player.

You want to take your concert C part, and transpose up a whole step to make a part for Bb tpt. (there is also a C tpt. which is non-transposing, but it's less common).

French horn, the notes should be transposed up a fifth (not down a fifth)

Any orchestration book will confirm this.


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## chibear (Oct 9, 2014)

(From a horn player)



> French horn, the notes should be transposed up a fifth (not down a fifth)



Just so there is no misunderstanding if you play middle C on the piano you would notate it as the G above middle C in the horn part. OR if you are dealing with professionals or university music majors, at the top of the part put "in C alto" and as long as there is not lots of chromatic technical stuff, it's a piece of cake. Horn players are expected to be able to transpose on sight and "C alto" transposition occurs often during the Classical period especially the middle Haydn symphonies and I think in one of the early Mozart Symphonies.

Not so sure about the trumpet parts as there are 2 types of F trumpet, one made by Shilke & co (usually as an add-on to the G) today is like a bridge between piccolo trumpet and regular trumpet, a small light instrument, and another seen around the end of 19th and early 20th century which was meant to play low and was large. 

If you can wake up Trumpoz he'd have a definitive answer concerning the transpositions.


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 9, 2014)

clarkus @ Thu Oct 09 said:


> Um, I may be reading this too quickly, or missing something, but the advice is incorrect, presuming you are trying to prepare parts for a real tpt. or horn player.
> 
> You want to take your concert C part, and transpose up a whole step to make a part for Bb tpt. (there is also a C tpt. which is non-transposing, but it's less common).
> 
> ...



1. In concert key, transpose F horns up a perfect fifth. 

2. In a study score, transpose F horns DOWN a perfect fifth to get concert pitch

3. In a study score, to stay consistent with the F horns and English horn, bring the pitch of the F trumpet down a perfect 5th THEN up an octave. This pitch can then be played by the C trumpet. If you want it played by the Bb trumpet, take it up a step.


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## murrthecat (Oct 10, 2014)

Hi everyone,

I would say that these are the 19th-early 20th century low F trumpets, as in the beginning of Mahler Urlicht (Symphony II, IV mov.), in the score notated a fourth below the resulting pitch.

http://imslp.eu/download.php?file=files/imglnks/euimg/1/19/IMSLP21507-PMLP49406-Mahler_-_Symphony_No._2_-_IV._Urlicht__orch._score_.pdf (http://imslp.eu/download.php?file=files ... score_.pdf)

Regards,
Alessandro


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## trumpoz (Oct 10, 2014)

Thanks for dropping me in this one Chibear :-P

Given the instrument was marked tromba - it probably refers to the low F trumpet mentioned above. I assume this will be performed live? A lot of Orchestral players tend to gravitate towards a trumpet in C for various reasons. 

Peter Alexander has it correct when he says:
"3. In a study score, to stay consistent with the F horns and English horn, bring the pitch of the F trumpet down a perfect 5th THEN up an octave. This pitch can then be played by the C trumpet. If you want it played by the Bb trumpet, take it up a step."


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## Rob (Oct 10, 2014)

clarkus @ 9th October 2014 said:


> Um, I may be reading this too quickly, or missing something, but the advice is incorrect, presuming you are trying to prepare parts for a real tpt. or horn player.
> 
> You want to take your concert C part, and transpose up a whole step to make a part for Bb tpt. (there is also a C tpt. which is non-transposing, but it's less common).
> 
> ...



yeah you're reading too quick or missed something... the op has transposed parts for horns and f trumpets and wants to play the correct notes in the daw. so horns down a fifth, trumpets up a fourth


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## Rob (Oct 10, 2014)

trumpoz @ 10th October 2014 said:


> "3. In a study score, to stay consistent with the F horns and English horn, bring the pitch of the F trumpet down a perfect 5th THEN up an octave. ...



in which way is this different from going up a perfect 4th as I suggested? :D


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## bryla (Oct 10, 2014)

Additionally: horns and trumpets (and timpani) are traditionally notated without key signatures. It doesn't mean that they are reading in C major. If the concert key is Eb, an F trumpet and horns will be reading in Bb - with accidentals.


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## clarkus (Oct 10, 2014)

One thing I like about this Forum is that though I'm turning into an old dog, I still learn new tricks. 

Though I teach music, I have never personally wrangled with this thing called the "F trumpet, " which I gather is an historical phenomenon (Mahler, et al). Gardner Read, who wrote a veritable bible on music notation (it's hear by me) doesn't mention it in his writeup on tpt's.He confirms the wisdom that key sig's are not employed for horns & tot's, though also points out that this tradition is ignored in some music published for school bands. 

Now we get to the nitty-gritty. In "older scores (up to the turn of the century at least)" - I am quoting Read, page 356 - "a change to bass clef for the horn necessitated a change in normal transposition. Instead of sounding a fifth lower than written, the horn reversed its transposition in the bass clef so that the sounding pitch was a fourth higher than written."

Gads. Look what I didn't know.

I have to admit, I have no clue why the tradition of writing in another clef should effect transposition convention. Does anyone know? Bass clarinet used to be notated in bass clef. It was written up a whole step. Now it's written up a ninth in treble clef, but the effective transposition is the same. 

Now, for my edification, could someone (Rob?) tell me what goes on with the study scores you are referencing. I have some study scores, and they are typically just small versions of the score. The implication here seems to be that the rules for transposition of inst's are different in study scores. Are they? Really? Or are you talking about the historical changes in practice that Read is talking about? i.e. by "study scores" you mean music from the 18th - 19th century.


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## brunodegazio (Oct 10, 2014)

clarkus @ Fri Oct 10 said:


> I have to admit, I have no clue why the tradition of writing in another clef should effect transposition convention. Does anyone know? Bass clarinet used to be notated in bass clef. It was written up a whole step. Now it's written up a ninth in treble clef, but the effective transposition is the same.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## wst3 (Oct 10, 2014)

F Trumpets are (were?)also used used as a replacement for French Horns in marching bands. I played one that used a horn type mouth piece and another that used a trumpet mouth piece. That was a long time ago!


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 12, 2014)

Rob @ Fri Oct 10 said:


> trumpoz @ 10th October 2014 said:
> 
> 
> > "3. In a study score, to stay consistent with the F horns and English horn, bring the pitch of the F trumpet down a perfect 5th THEN up an octave. ...
> ...



Only in the thinking process. To each his own.


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## Daryl (Oct 12, 2014)

Rob @ Fri Oct 10 said:


> trumpoz @ 10th October 2014 said:
> 
> 
> > "3. In a study score, to stay consistent with the F horns and English horn, bring the pitch of the F trumpet down a perfect 5th THEN up an octave. ...
> ...


This is the way that I think it when I'm conducting Elgar's music.

There are a few things one has to be careful of with transpositions, but mostly the issues are obvious when they arise.

BTW the Bass Clef French Horn thing is a well known conductor baiting question. "Maestro, at letter C is it old notation or new notation?". Designed to weed out the conductors who doesn't really know their stuff. :wink: 

D


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## chibear (Oct 12, 2014)

> BTW the Bass Clef French Horn thing is a well known conductor baiting question. "Maestro, at letter C is it old notation or new notation?". Designed to weed out the conductors who doesn't really know their stuff. Wink



shhhhhhh!! you'll spoil all the fun :lol:


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## Daryl (Oct 12, 2014)

chibear @ Sun Oct 12 said:


> > BTW the Bass Clef French Horn thing is a well known conductor baiting question. "Maestro, at letter C is it old notation or new notation?". Designed to weed out the conductors who doesn't really know their stuff. Wink
> 
> 
> 
> shhhhhhh!! you'll spoil all the fun :lol:


Not all the fun. I haven't talked about the Bb Horns in Beethoven. :wink: 

D


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