# Books/Tutorials for MIDI orchestration without notation



## HarmonyCore (Mar 23, 2020)

I am looking for theory books or tutorials about midi orchestration that explains counterpoint, counter melodies, voice leading, and other important stuff using only the piano chart and a DAW. No notation. I can't read music and I don't have the time to learn the cleffs. I want to hone my skills theoretically as well. I know all the fundamentals of music theory (chords, scales, modes, inversions).


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## JJP (Mar 23, 2020)

Good luck with that. That's like saying "I want to learn the fundamentals of grammar, style, and punctuation, but only by listening to audiobooks."

The biggest problem is that orchestration requires you to see and understand multiple instruments with all their dynamics and articulations simultaneously. You can't do that effectively on a piano roll.

The reason we use notation is because it is efficient at conveying the necessary information.


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## agarner32 (Mar 23, 2020)

I 


HarmonyCore said:


> I am looking for theory books or tutorials about midi orchestration that explains counterpoint, counter melodies, voice leading, and other important stuff using only the piano chart and a DAW. No notation.


I seriously doubt you’ll find much without notation. I’m curious why you don’t have time to learn basic musicianship. You mention clefs, but you would need to learn a lot more than just clefs. I think you don’t know what you don’t know. When I hear people make these sorts of comments my first thought is they are just lazy or don’t really have a real interest and I don’t mean that in a disrespectful way. I have no idea what your goals are. Perhaps you’re just looking for some quick little tips.

I think some of these expensive online courses claim you can learn orchestration without reading, but I haven’t seen them. Perhaps they are good. Some can do amazing things just using their ears. I get some pretty talented college students in my first semester theory/comp classes and they can write some interesting stuff, but they take my classes to get formal training because they are truly interested in taking their skills to another level.

Anyway, to answer your question, there are a few tutorials out there and here is one. Spitfire Audio often has tutorials that don’t involve notation. I think Project Sam has some videos too. Good luck.









A Guide to Producing an Epic Orchestral Track


Although I'm not a huge fan of epic productions, they are definitely the thing that producers/directors/game developers search for nowadays. Now, as a whole, epic orchestral tracks can be heard on...




music.tutsplus.com


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## d.healey (Mar 24, 2020)

You can learn the basics of notation in a weekend.


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## ed buller (Mar 24, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> I am looking for theory books or tutorials about midi orchestration that explains counterpoint, counter melodies, voice leading, and other important stuff using only the piano chart and a DAW. No notation. I can't read music and I don't have the time to learn the cleffs. I want to hone my skills theoretically as well. I know all the fundamentals of music theory (chords, scales, modes, inversions).



sorry..........there are NO shortcuts...roll up your sleeves and enjoy yourself. Learn form example by the masters !........there are loads of masters...steal their shit and make it your own...that's what they did. If you have an I phone get this: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/swyftnote-play-along-with-music-flash-cards/id1058445648

every day for a month or so and you will be reading in no time. As to music theory I am curious how you managed the fundamentals without being able to read. Perhaps you missed something. 

Best

ed


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## yiph2 (Mar 24, 2020)

literally impossible...
here is a video that uses notation, but also has a piano keyboard thing at the bottom

don't know how much that will help


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 24, 2020)

Ok everyone, thx for taking the time to answer. Great answers. Looks like no other way around this. I learned the mentioned fundamentals on the piano directly by visualizing them on keys rather than on lines, spaces, and ledgers. I've always thought that notation is crucial only academically for those who is in actual orchestra playing in real time or sightreading. So, I thought to myself that I could do the same with advanced theory is to visualise it directly on the keys. After all, what's written in the paper is translated into an instrument. I just want to see that translation directly.


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## ed buller (Mar 24, 2020)

yeah..that's why it's tricky. Basically you are dealing with a very complex language . To write film music and the like you'll need to draw from a 100 year plus reservoir of harmonic syntax. None of that shit is presented in any way other than notation.....soz...but there you are !.......and even then your going to have to dig through a ton if it and select the bit's that interest you ! 

all the best

e


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## Ashermusic (Mar 24, 2020)

Learning notation is, as others said, not difficult and understanding it will open all kinds of musical doors for you.

What better tim than now, when you probably have some free time?


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## PaulBrimstone (Mar 24, 2020)

d.healey said:


> You can learn the basics of notation in a weekend.


Or even one day. Give it a try, OP!


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## Leandro Gardini (Mar 24, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> I am looking for theory books or tutorials about midi orchestration that explains counterpoint, counter melodies, voice leading, and other important stuff using only the piano chart and a DAW. No notation. I can't read music and I don't have the time to learn the cleffs. I want to hone my skills theoretically as well. I know all the fundamentals of music theory (chords, scales, modes, inversions).


You certainly have time to learn reading but you don't want to. Believe it or not, you are taking for granted the most important part to hone your skills.
There's also a misconception happening here. Midi orchestration, as far as I know, is related to techniques to produce expressive mockups. There's no such thing as orchestrating on midi or orchestrating on notation. The same principles apply to both. On the other hand, counterpoint, vl, harmony etc... are part of the composition which is easier learned through score reading.
I hope it helps!


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## Vik (Mar 24, 2020)

You'll get the basics of notation is relatively short time, but what matters is how fast you'll get to a satisfying sight reading speed.

How difficult it is to learn notation (not only learn and understand it, but to be able to sight read fast enough to not give up/become exhausted after working for an hour) varies from person to person. Also: there are several 'tricks' to use when learning notation; methods that speed up the process of reaching a decent level of sigh reading skills/speed. So don't give up if you start to learn notation and find it less easy than you thought it would be, because most likely, a notation system developed today from the ground up would have been more logic that the existing system.

A few tips: 

• Get used to identifying pitch not only by identifying it's 'absolute value' (based on position), but get used to, as soon as possible, to identifying pitch based each note's distance to the closest note.

• Don't assume that it's all logical. Notation is a graphical alphabet which only has 7 characters (ABCDEFG), but there are several As, several Bs etc, which of course means extra work. But if you look at one of the 'characters': 5 empty lines with a black note on top of the lowermost line, that graphical symbol means "E" if it's in treble clef, but it means "G" if it is in bass clef. That's a bad UI right there, because it's almost like telling a kid that the symbol we knows "E" is an E if it's placed on the uppermost line on a page, but it's "G" if it's shown in the line below. I know I'm exaggerating, but this *is* confusing for many beginners.

• Don't try to learn notation by looking at a Strawinsky score, or even at one of your favourite pop songs. If you aren't at all familiar with notation (which most people aren't), consider your self a kid in this context, and start with really simple stuff.

• Only work with piano clef - in order to get used to seeing the upper E mentioned as an E and the G I mentioned as a G, even if it looks almost the same. You'll get used to it, but it will take some time. Don't start with reading only treble clef stuff.

• Print out (in piano clef) one note at a time, with a letter next to it explaining what note it is, and place these small 'mini lessons' close to where you spend most of your time (where you eat breakfast, next to your bed, next to your computer screen etc). Then you'll slowly learn some notes, one at a time, without really trying.

• It's often easier to remember two things than one thing. If you think of the note system as a building, and find something to associated the lines with, things become easier. You could eg. think of the lower most line as the 'ground', that note is a G and ground start with G. Or that the line between the two dots in the F clef (bass clef) is the F line (the line in the center of the G (treble) clef is the G line. 

• Think of the notes as ABCDEFG, not CDEFGABC or the (German etc) CDEFGAHC.

• Since the music alphabet ends with G, remember that the first notes above any G are ABC (etc).


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## youngpokie (Mar 24, 2020)

There is a method to speed-learn sight reading of pitch notation and some claim it takes between 15 minutes to an hour per clef to learn. The steps are (bass clef and left hand training as example):

1. Put a sticker (e.g. strip of red post it) on the middle c on a keyboard

2. Put 5 stickers (e.g. strips of green) on keyboard keys that correspond to notes falling on staff lines in bass clef. Like this:






3. Configure this online Sight Reading App like this:






4. Follow the online trainer. You only play notes that falls on a staff line (i.e. marked with a sticker on a keyboard) and skip for now the notes in between.






5. Some useful tips:

- As first training step, mentally and visually memorize the note that's on the middle staff line (first note in the screenshot above and the middle of the clef stickers) and use it as a compass for notes above and below. Some people use a separate color sticker to mark it

- Concentrate first on the notes that fall on the staff lines (skip the rest) for first practice run

- Add the notes that are between the staff lines when you're feel you're ready

=====
This is very fast and very simple, all it does is train visual-muscle coordination and rapid memorization. The method for treble clef (right hand) is exactly the same.

You decide when you're ready to move to extra staff lines and accidentals and you do that using the configure button and changing the lower and upper pitch limits.

Once you're good in each hand separately you combine them, and boom - you have full range of chords at your disposal.

Hope it helps!


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## NoamL (Mar 24, 2020)

Just think of learning notation as your first step to learning everything else.


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## PaulBrimstone (Mar 24, 2020)

@HarmonyCore This might help, and I believe it’s at a big discount at the moment:








Music Theory for DAW Musicians Tutorial & Online Course - Music Theory 109 Training Video By macProVideo.com


Learning music theory is an excellent way to grow as a producer and musician. This course, by music teacher Joshua Carney, reveals how to apply music theory con




www.macprovideo.com


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 24, 2020)

Vik said:


> You'll get the basics of notation is relatively short time, but what matters is how fast you'll get to a satisfying sight reading speed.
> 
> How difficult it is to learn notation (not only learn and understand it, but to be able to sight read fast enough to not give up/become exhausted after working for an hour) varies from person to person. Also: there are several 'tricks' to use when learning notation; methods that speed up the process of reaching a decent level of sigh reading skills/speed. So don't give up if you start to learn notation and find it less easy than you thought it would be, because most likely, a notation system developed today from the ground up would have been more logic that the existing system.
> 
> ...



Appreciate your explanation, sir.
Respect !!! and Peace !!!


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 24, 2020)

PaulBrimstone said:


> @HarmonyCore This might help, and I believe it’s at a big discount at the moment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks but I don't think I am going to buy any other course after I became a subscribed member in Groove3. Tons of videos out there.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 24, 2020)

youngpokie said:


> There is a method to speed-learn sight reading of pitch notation and some claim it takes between 15 minutes to an hour per clef to learn. The steps are (bass clef and left hand training as example):
> 
> 1. Put a sticker (e.g. strip of red post it) on the middle c on a keyboard
> 
> ...



Amazing staff game app !!
It really helps.

thx


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## robgb (Mar 24, 2020)

JJP said:


> Good luck with that. That's like saying "I want to learn the fundamentals of grammar, style, and punctuation, but only by listening to audiobooks."


Well, not quite. Audiobooks wouldn't exist without something written down, but music can easily exist without ever writing a note. And you can certainly use your ears to understand orchestration. In fact, that's exactly what my high school music teacher had us do on a regular basis, because she knew we didn't read music. Learning to listen and separate the various instruments was a pretty miraculous moment for me.

You can certainly learn how the various instruments contrast and compliment each other without ever having to read a note of music. Would reading music be a benefit? Sure, for some. For others it might be a hindrance. It's why I always tells young writers that they have to find their own way into the work, because everyone learns differently.

The late Peter Alexander's website has a series on orchestrating by ear. He called it Visual Orchestration:






Visual Orchestration Courses







www.alexanderpublishing.com


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## youngpokie (Mar 24, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Amazing staff game app !!
> It really helps.
> 
> thx



awesome! As you get the hang of it, try not to look at your hands while you train, just the notation. That’s muscle memory on steroids, you will be amazed with your results.


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## JJP (Mar 24, 2020)

robgb said:


> Well, not quite. Audiobooks wouldn't exist without something written down, but music can easily exist without ever writing a note. And you can certainly use your ears to understand orchestration. In fact, that's exactly what my high school music teacher had us do on a regular basis, because she knew we didn't read music. Learning to listen and separate the various instruments was a pretty miraculous moment for me.
> 
> You can certainly learn how the various instruments contrast and compliment each other without ever having to read a note of music.



As someone who has been doing this for years and who often helps people who did learn what they could without notation, it's just not the same. Part of the misunderstanding is the idea that orchestration is basically learning "how the various instruments contrast and compliment each other". If that were the case, then notation wouldn't really be necessary. In reality there is so much more to it.

Sure, you may be able learn counterpoint, orchestration, whatever without notation. But it's a bit like trying to record audiobooks without a written draft. Yeah you can do it, but nobody who knows better would ever want to or advise someone else to work that way.


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## robgb (Mar 25, 2020)

JJP said:


> Sure, you may be able learn counterpoint, orchestration, whatever without notation. But it's a bit like trying to record audiobooks without a written draft. Yeah you can do it, but nobody who knows better would ever want to or advise someone else to work that way.


My point is that not one size shoe fits all. And anyone who assumes their way is the only way is being a bit narrow-minded.


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## mikrokosmiko (Mar 25, 2020)

Counterpoint flourished when we developed a written musical language, indeed. I think that you could learn a lot about it without knowing how to read, though. It would be an interesting challenge. I also think it would need much more time than learning how to read first and proceeding from that point.


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## mikeh-375 (Mar 25, 2020)

robgb said:


> My point is that not one size shoe fits all. And anyone who assumes their way is the only way is being a bit narrow-minded.



rob, I hope you don't think it narrow minded to say that to write for orchestra well, really well, there _is_ only one way and that is harmony, counterpoint and a long time studying scores, getting to know instruments in order to exploit them individually and in combination, developing an inner ear, developing musical imagination, etc. etc. It's a long, long list and it's a long, long time studying - no-one can get around that and anyone wanting it needs to committed.

Having said that, you do have a point in that there are other ways to go about it, but no other way will get you to competence and excellence. I personally believe a similar approach applies to midistration too, but accept it's not completely necessary because it's not real and anything can go....even a purist like me ignored conventions when the clock was ticking...


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## robgb (Mar 25, 2020)

mikeh-375 said:


> rob, I hope you don't think it narrow minded to say that to write for orchestra well, really well, there _is_ only one way and that is harmony, counterpoint and a long time studying scores, getting to know instruments in order to exploit them individually and in combination, developing an inner ear, developing musical imagination, etc. etc. It's a long, long list and it's a long, long time studying - no-one can get around that and anyone wanting it needs to committed.


This is absolutely essential, but there is more than one way to study a score. That may not seem possible to some of you, but we're all individuals with different brains, different abilities, and different ways of learning. So, no, there _isn't_ only one way.



mikeh-375 said:


> Having said that, you do have a point in that there are other ways to go about it, but no other way will get you to competence and excellence.


The second half of this statement is not only wrong but has the odor of elitism. I'm sure that wasn't what you intended, however. There is definitely more than one way to achieve competence and excellence and this is proven every day in many different fields, including music.


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## robgb (Mar 25, 2020)

Also, notation is merely a form of communication. Its purpose is to allow you to communicate to other musicians the music you have inside your head. But it isn't required to create that music. And it isn't required to understand harmony, counterpoint, et al. Some people simply use their ears. Now, if they want to communicate to an orchestra, then yes, notation is essential. But we have amazing tools nowadays that allow us to do that without being experts. Also the notion of amanuensis is not a new one, and there are people who make a living at it.


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## d.healey (Mar 25, 2020)

robgb said:


> But we have amazing tools nowadays that allow us to do that without being experts.


Isn't it interesting that people consider a DAW less complicated than a sheet of paper with some lines and dots...


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## robgb (Mar 25, 2020)

d.healey said:


> Isn't it interesting that people consider a DAW less complicated than a sheet of paper with some lines and dots...


True.


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## robgb (Mar 25, 2020)

mikrokosmiko said:


> Counterpoint flourished when we developed a written musical language, indeed.


I had no idea what counterpoint was until someone pointed it out in my music. It was nice to put a name to it, but not necessary for me, personally, to do what I was compelled to do.

Anyway, I've hijacked this thread enough. Check into Visual Orchestration. It looks as if it may be of help.


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## CT (Mar 25, 2020)

robgb said:


> I had no idea what counterpoint was until someone pointed it out in my music. It was nice to put a name to it, but not necessary for me, personally, to do what I was compelled to do.



Don't you think you could do what you're compelled to do more compellingly, though, if you knew what you were doing?


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 25, 2020)

robgb said:


> Well, not quite. Audiobooks wouldn't exist without something written down, but music can easily exist without ever writing a note. And you can certainly use your ears to understand orchestration. In fact, that's exactly what my high school music teacher had us do on a regular basis, because she knew we didn't read music. Learning to listen and separate the various instruments was a pretty miraculous moment for me.
> 
> You can certainly learn how the various instruments contrast and compliment each other without ever having to read a note of music. Would reading music be a benefit? Sure, for some. For others it might be a hindrance. It's why I always tells young writers that they have to find their own way into the work, because everyone learns differently.
> 
> ...



Yes, that's what I always do. However, strings (Violin I/II, Violas, Cellos) is very tricky to arrange and orchestrate by ear. They need techniques such as Divisi, counter melodies, counter points, (and others but I still don't know what they are yet, lol) to sound full and rich. In the mean time, I am applying open voicings for strings chords using inversions and I am satisfied with the results. I keep trying to create dissonances and resolve them to consonances to keep the track interesting. I use lots of sus4 and resolve them to major. Sounds very good to my ears. 

But aside from the above, I am hungry to read and learn more about the process to add more colors. Sometimes I get this feeling of something is missing. I just want to be good at it because I love it.

Luckily, I know some notation basics since the '90s and high school. So I decided to refresh my memory and start learning only what I need from notations. My goal is never to sightread. My goal is to know how to transcribe the notation in some education books to learn more about the stuff that I need. Now, I am busy listening to counter melodies and counter points in youtube . I have no clue what they are and do.


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## robgb (Mar 25, 2020)

miket said:


> Don't you think you could do what you're compelled to do more compellingly, though, if you knew what you were doing?


Not in the least. In fact, discovering that what I was doing was called counterpoint made me feel a bit self-conscious. Now that I knew it had a name I also wondered if it also had a "rule" attached to it and whether or not I was violating that rule. And this, in turn, made my process feel less organic.

Then I finally told myself not to worry about such things and simply go with what sounded good to my ears as I've done all my life.

I'm not saying this is the way that others should work. I'm only saying it's what works for ME. You may feel that what I do is neither competent nor excellent, but that's your burden to bear, not mine.


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## CT (Mar 25, 2020)

I don't know a thing about what you do, just a suggestion. Good luck with your music!


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## robgb (Mar 25, 2020)

miket said:


> I don't know a thing about what you do, just a suggestion. Good luck with your music!


No worries. I was speaking about the universal "you." Not you personally.


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## Pincel (Mar 25, 2020)

There's good advice in this thread either way, but my 2 cents are that in the end it really doesn't hurt to be able to at least understand written notation at a basic, functional level.

I taught myself how to read/write notation in my late teen years, and to this day I'm not a good reader by any means, but I can't tell you how invaluable that skill has been over the years in my quest for knowledge and understanding of orchestration/composition.

I don't really know that much, but I've had some opportunities to write for live orchestra and ensembles, and the ability to reference with scores from works that I like for techniques and colors in orchestration, especially when I'm in doubt if some combination/balance might work or not, is pretty invaluable.
And of course, one always makes a lot mistakes due to lack of experience, but I feel that referencing scores is very important in the journey of an aspiring composer.

Sure, you don't really NEED it, I 100% agree with that, especially if your music will never leave your DAW so to speak, but if you find the time and will to learn notation, it will possibly do great things for your music.


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## mikrokosmiko (Mar 25, 2020)

robgb said:


> I had no idea what counterpoint was until someone pointed it out in my music. It was nice to put a name to it, but not necessary for me, personally, to do what I was compelled to do.
> 
> Anyway, I've hijacked this thread enough. Check into Visual Orchestration. It looks as if it may be of help.



I'm ok with that. I did not know that I was playing parallel fifths in my high school band until I attended the harmony class at the conservatoire. In my case, that knowledge triggered a greater interest in what I was doing and ultimately making more interesting music. I think that this is not a "put a name on it" thing, but finding the best tools for what you want to do. 

Yeah, I just sucked at the guitar, but that's another story


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 25, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Ok everyone, thx for taking the time to answer. Great answers. Looks like no other way around this. I learned the mentioned fundamentals on the piano directly by visualizing them on keys rather than on lines, spaces, and ledgers. I've always thought that notation is crucial only academically for those who is in actual orchestra playing in real time or sightreading. So, I thought to myself that I could do the same with advanced theory is to visualise it directly on the keys. After all, what's written in the paper is translated into an instrument. I just want to see that translation directly.



It certainly could be theoretically possible to learn orchestration and advanced theory without using notation but I would consider that the REALLY REALLY hard way to do it. Well, orchestration could probably be learned easily enough without looking at any staves, but I digress. 

As others have said, you can learn music notation in a weekend. You might not be able to sightread just yet. Music notation as we currently use it is not perfect, but its the time-honored language that has been used for centuries. Literally everything you are ever going to read of any substance on these topics will use that language. Anyone who has studied music long enough to be come adept at these topics...uses that language. It is still, to this day, the best known way to communicate your musical ideas to other musicians for performance.


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## robgb (Mar 25, 2020)

mikrokosmiko said:


> In my case, that knowledge triggered a greater interest in what I was doing and ultimately making more interesting music.


I think that's great. Whatever works. That's the important thing.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 25, 2020)

d.healey said:


> Isn't it interesting that people consider a DAW less complicated than a sheet of paper with some lines and dots...



Not to me.
I see DAW a lot easier than notation.


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## d.healey (Mar 25, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Not to me.
> I see DAW a lot easier than notation.


The DAW as a whole or the piano roll vs staff?

The main advantage I see to the piano roll is that it can show an absolute timeline - this is obviously possible with score writers too but not so easy with hand written notation.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 25, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> It certainly could be theoretically possible to learn orchestration and advanced theory without using notation but I would consider that the REALLY REALLY hard way to do it. Well, orchestration could probably be learned easily enough without looking at any staves, but I digress.
> 
> As others have said, you can learn music notation in a weekend. You might not be able to sightread just yet. Music notation as we currently use it is not perfect, but its the time-honored language that has been used for centuries. Literally everything you are ever going to read of any substance on these topics will use that language. Anyone who has studied music long enough to be come adept at these topics...uses that language. It is still, to this day, the best known way to communicate your musical ideas to other musicians for performance.



You can learn it in a weekend but you still can't use it perfectly after that weekend. Knowing what notes on lines, spaces, and ledgers is easy but practicing it takes time. You will still be slow interpreting it and I really don't have the time for that. However, I decided to try learning it again and see if it will work for me or not. My head just refuses to learn it. LOL


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 25, 2020)

d.healey said:


> The DAW as a whole or the piano roll vs staff?
> 
> The main advantage I see to the piano roll is that it can show an absolute timeline - this is obviously possible with score writers too but not so easy with hand written notation.



For me, the DAW as a whole because this is what I am currently caring about. I am not planning to be a concert pianist or something so the entire sightreading stuff isn't important. What's important to me now is to produce decent computer orchestral music for the media. I don't call myself a musician or a composer (I am trying to be a composer) but I am very good at using the computers and technology. The only challenge that is facing me now is to find a way to learn how to compose orchestral pieces without notations. Some said imposssible, others said you can do that but it will be very difficult. Honestly, seeing the theory directly on the keys is way much easier than the notation. Like I said, this is how I learned theory fundamentals by directly visualizing them on keys. Maybe this method is hard for sightreaders but it's easy for me. So, the bottom line, what is easy for you can be hard for me and the vice versa.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 25, 2020)

well hopefully you are a musical genius and it won't matter, you'll figure it out. But you won't find much information in that format.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 25, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> well hopefully you are a musical genius and it won't better, you'll figure it out. But you won't find much information in that format.



It's called "Talent", not genius. Music isn't mathematics.


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## d.healey (Mar 25, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Music isn't mathematics.


It's binary maths


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 25, 2020)

who says "genius" is reserved only for math?


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## jcrosby (Mar 25, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> You can learn it in a weekend but you still can't use it perfectly after that weekend. Knowing what notes on lines, spaces, and ledgers is easy but practicing it takes time. You will still be slow interpreting it and I really don't have the time for that. However, I decided to try learning it again and see if it will work for me or not. My head just refuses to learn it. LOL


Let me give you a different perspective. Sight reading has always been a bitch for me because I'm dyslexic. (Which ironically is fairly common among musicians.) No two people with dyslexia interpret language the same, and no tow dyslexic brains behave the same. Some are brilliant at math, others aren't. Some have incredible spatialization logic, others don't. (Personally I think our understanding of it is still in its infancy... E.g. why does it occur in tandem with ADHD 1/3 of the time, and why does the brain react almost identically in both disorders, but completely different regions of the brain?.... ((Angular Gyrus vs Prefrontal Cortex)).

Just as I've always had difficulty reading text, my brain does the same thing when trying to read music, it gets overloaded and I can only decipher note information or timing separately, as soon as I try and decipher both at the same time my brain goes to tilt. And not for lack of trying... I studied classical guitar and jazz guitar as a teenager and sight reading was always the bitch for me... It turned out that there was an upside to having a difficult time sight reading, I tested into the highest bracket for auditory comprehension. (And failed miserably for written comprehension.) Turns out _my ears were my eyes_ in many ways...

Hone your ear. While many successful composers sight read, many don't... Sharpen those listening skills by deciphering a favorite piece of music. Even if you can't figure out every nuance get as close as you can. Over time you get better at it and will be able to decipher more complex pieces, and eventually be able to hear harmony.

Would I love to be fluent in sight reading? Sure as shit I would!!! This would allow me immediate access to a deeper understanding of more complex concepts that take more time to figure out by ear. But I've managed to make a career from it so no sense getting hung up on it now...

Definitely continue having a crack at sight reading practice, as assuming you don't have dyslexia it may just be a matter of rolling up your sleeves... That said, other tools are to learn a bunch of standard chord progressions and understand why certain resolutions always work. The notion that you can't learn theory without notation is bullshit, I've done it my whole life... Either way sharpen that ear. Even if you did get to a point of sight reading your ear makes the final call when writing... The most interesting classical pieces happened when the composer broke the rules of tradition...

Final note - if sight reading were universally mandatory to be a great musician then why do we have guitar tablature, chord charts, etc... ?? These are shorthand ways to learn a song or riff on an idea without having to read notation. Notation comes with the rule of play what you see, a chord chart comes with the implication to play what you feel...


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 25, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> who says "genius" is reserved only for math?



Me


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## Dave Connor (Mar 25, 2020)

.


HarmonyCore said:


> I am looking for theory books or tutorials about midi orchestration that explains counterpoint, counter melodies, voice leading, and other important stuff using only the piano chart and a DAW. No notation. I can't read music and I don't have the time to learn the cleffs. I want to hone my skills theoretically as well. I know all the fundamentals of music theory (chords, scales, modes, inversions).


I think JJP has it right. It’s a bit like trying to learn how to read without written words. Notation is the written language of music. Children of course learn how to talk as toddlers but soon enough they are learning how to _read and write _which requires they understand the symbols used to describe what they have only previously understood _aurally._

Paul McCartney may have written music for the ages but the minute a french horn player needs to play a tune he hummed into a tape recorder, someone needs to place the appropriate symbols in the exact order. In fact, numerous agreed upon conventions of music notation will have to present if not all. Yes, Paul could hum the tune to the horn player but that inefficiency will prove prohibitive upon the adding of even one more musical part let alone 80 pieces.

A glorious exception would be Brian Wilson going around a room of 15 players and singing everyone their separate part. But, if you’re not one of the acknowledged geniuses of Popular Music history you’re probably better off learning your staffs et. al., and doing it like the rest of us.

Edit: Some people can do wonders in writing in midi only. The issue here however is _learning counterpoint _etc. That’s completely different from some talented guy with a gift doing a contrapuntal texture well in midi. An innate gift is one thing; learning something that is not innate is completely different.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 25, 2020)

d.healey said:


> It's binary maths



Zeros and Ones


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 25, 2020)

Hey I can't sight read worth crap either, especially for someone that has been reading music for almost 50 years. Makes no difference, its still the language of choice for discussing music theory.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 25, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> .
> 
> I think JJP has it right. It’s a bit like trying to learn how to read without written words. Notation is the written language of music. Children of course learn how to talk as toddlers but soon enough they are learning how to _read and write _which requires they understand the symbols used to describe what they have only previously understood _aurally._
> 
> ...



Guys, you keep telling me stories about the greats and I can't be compared to them. I am not them and they are not me. I am not going to walk into a room of 15 players, or deal with large orchestra anytime soon. I am just sitting behind my HP Omen trying to make good music. Sightreaders, with all due respect to them, are attacking me in this thread just because I asked a simple question. See the first response I got right after I asked the question. If I can't ask questions and seek help in forums, where else should I go?


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 25, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> Hey I can't sight read worth crap either, especially for someone that has been reading music for almost 50 years. Makes no difference, its still the language of choice for discussing music theory.



I understand that but that actually didn't answer my question. Most people talk in general how fantastic notation is, it's the language, it's the titan of music, bla bla. All these answers are technically worthless to me. 

But thx anyways for taking the time to answer, I appreciate that indeed.


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## robgb (Mar 25, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> Paul McCartney may have written music for the ages but the minute a french horn player needs to play a tune he hummed into a tape recorder, someone needs to place the appropriate symbols in the exact order.


Exactly why I called it a means of communication. But McCartney didn't need those symbols to create the horn player's part.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 25, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Let me give you a different perspective. Sight reading has always been a bitch for me because I'm dyslexic. (Which ironically is fairly common among musicians.) No two people with dyslexia interpret language the same, and no tow dyslexic brains behave the same. Some are brilliant at math, others aren't. Some have incredible spatialization logic, others don't. (Personally I think our understanding of it is still in its infancy... E.g. why does it occur in tandem with ADHD 1/3 of the time, and why does the brain react almost identically in both disorders, but completely different regions of the brain?.... ((Angular Gyrus vs Prefrontal Cortex - _The Angular Gyrus In Developmental Dyslexia_)).
> 
> Just as I've always had difficulty reading text, my brain does the same thing when trying to read music, it gets overloaded and I can only decipher note information or timing separately, as soon as I try and decipher both at the same time my brain goes to tilt. And not for lack of trying... I studied classical guitar and jazz guitar as a teenager and sight reading was always the bitch for me... I managed to scoop up the music award for my school nonethelss as it turned out that there was an upside to having a difficult time sight reading, I tested into the highest bracket for auditory comprehension. (And failed miserably for written comprehension. Turns out _my ears were my eyes_ in many ways...)
> 
> ...



Very well said .....


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## bryla (Mar 25, 2020)

The problems I see with learning counterpoint, voice leading and orchestration through piano roll or MIDI are:

- The piano roll / MIDI doesn't differentiate between sharps and flats. Those are a huge deal in learning the DNA of harmony first and foremost which leads into voice leading and counterpoint.

- The staff shows exactly for each instrument how it sits in its register – that's what all the clefs and transpositions are for. In the piano roll two melodies an octave apart will show just as two melodies an octave apart, but on the score you can clearly see that if the bottom is in the flutes lowest register and top is on trumpet in it's high register you clearly won't hear the flute whereas if the top is on high flute and bottom is oboe they will both sit in their high register.

Then comes all the ways articulations and phrasings are marked which can not be replicated in MIDI.

It's not only wanting to learn to read but without words it's like wanting to learn to read English but without words and also have all the teaching be in Chinese.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 25, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> I understand that but that actually didn't answer my question. Most people talk in general how fantastic notation is, it's the language, it's the titan of music, bla bla. All these answers are technically worthless to me.
> 
> But thx anyways for taking the time to answer, I appreciate that indeed.



if you want to have a deep discussion about the merits of music notation, I'm quite sure that musicologists will come out of the wood work here to explain that.

One thing that comes to mind right off the bat, your keyboard visualization has absolutely zero representation of time. It only represents a single slice of time in the moment. Looking down at a keyboard and visualizing certain intervals or scale/chord patterns is barely different then looking at one vertical position on a stave. You can learn to do that seriously in a weekend. If you truly spent some hours of the weekend, you will have it dialed, that is nothing special.

Secondly, staff notation also removes from the visualization, performance nuances which are not needed to represent the musical idea, leaving that instead for the performer to interpret. A DAW pianoroll has exactly the performance nuances desired. Having those extra timing differences adds to clutter and confusion, distracting from the fundamental musical theory being discussed.

Likewise if you wanted to discuss PERFORMANCE of music, then perhaps a DAW pianoroll would in fact be quite appropriate to display the nitty gritty exacting details of a performance.

Also when you look at a pianoroll, the concept of "accidentals" is not really there. When you use staff notation you can have key signatures and accidentals and these things actually mean things from a theoretical perspective, so you can understand the music just by looking at the way the key and accidentals are being used...where with a DAW pianroll you have to figure those things out on your own.

etc etc.. I'm sure others may contribute to that, but this will then turn in a big long notation vs no-notation argument thread...I"m not sure that is what you really intended. You want to learn more theory and you're asking for resources where you can learn without notation. What we're trying to tell you is, there isn't much if any. If you want to learn deeper theory...learn more notation.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 25, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> if you want to have a deep discussion about the merits of music notation, I'm quite sure that musicologists will come out of the wood work here to explain that.
> 
> One thing that comes to mind right off the bat, your keyboard visualization has absolutely zero representation of time. It only represents a single slice of time in the moment. Looking down at a keyboard and visualizing certain intervals or scale/chord patterns is barely different then looking at one vertical position on a stave. You can learn to do that seriously in a weekend. If you truly spent some hours of the weekend, you will have to dialed, that is nothing special.
> 
> ...



Well, I am currently playing this notation game app that one of the users here posted to me. It's fun. I guess the only way for me to learn notations is through GAMES. Otherwise, I will shoot myself twice at the center of my head.


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## jcrosby (Mar 25, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Very well said .....


Thanks


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 25, 2020)

Its not really that important, in my opinion to be able to ""speed read" it, or sight read. If you can't actually read as fast as needed to play it in real time while reading it for the first time, that doesn't matter. Like I said, I still can't for the vast majority of stuff I am interested in playing. I've always had a mental block, I think its a left brain, right brain thing. 

But if you can at least read it and get your fingers to the keyboard, albeit slower then real time, but still, you can read it and play it, if one chord at a time..fine. for now, if one finger at a time...fine. baby steps


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## jcrosby (Mar 25, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Guys, you keep telling me stories about the greats and I can't be compared to them. I am not them and they are not me. I am not going to walk into a room of 15 players, or deal with large orchestra anytime soon. I am just sitting behind my HP Omen trying to make good music. Sightreaders, with all due respect to them, are attacking me in this thread just because I asked a simple question. See the first response I got right after I asked the question. If I can't ask questions and seek help in forums, where else should I go?


Don't sweat it. This is the kind of thread where you're going to attract a lot of cognitive dissonance. Someone posted this channel earlier, it's pretty useful. You can in fact grasp many of the concepts without having to read notation if you have a strong ear.









Music Matters


Learn music theory, aural tests, music composition, sight reading, piano and more! Prepare and practice for music exams and diplomas with Music Matters. Musi...




www.youtube.com


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 25, 2020)

Sight singing and all that is also important eventually.. but mainly I feel those things just improve efficiency. You can study theory all day long and learn a ton, using all the traditional theory books with just an elementary ability to read music.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 25, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Don't sweat it. This is the kind of thread where you're going to attract a lot of cognitive dissonance. Someone posted this channel earlier, it's pretty great. You can in fact grasp many of the concepts without having to read notation if you have a strong ear.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hehe ...True !!!!!!!!!!!! 

EDIT: thx for the link


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## babylonwaves (Mar 25, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Well, I am currently playing this notation game app that one of the users here posted to me. It's fun. I guess the only way for me to learn notations is through GAMES. Otherwise, I will shoot myself twice at the center of my head.


you know, play it. you're totally right. just to make a comparison to languages, and there's a lot of old fashion teaching as well. and 10 years ago there was Rosetta Stone and now there is things like DuoLingo and both work great (better than some traditional stuff). from my point of view you do not necessarily need to read score fluently, the only problem is that there is a lot of literature which relies on you being able to read it in order to follow.


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## Dave Connor (Mar 25, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Guys, you keep telling me stories about the greats and I can't be compared to them. I am not them and they are not me. I am not going to walk into a room of 15 players, or deal with large orchestra anytime soon. I am just sitting behind my HP Omen trying to make good music. Sightreaders, with all due respect to them, are attacking me in this thread just because I asked a simple question. See the first response I got right after I asked the question. If I can't ask questions and seek help in forums, where else should I go?


Well I mentioned toddlers as well so I’m guessing you fall somewhere in between them and geniuses : ) 

Your question (or quest) is how to avoid the symbols deemed necessary historically and conventionally to - in a facile manner - employ both the simple and complex modes of expression found in music. Once you name something as complex as _counterpoint _however, you have tipped the scales as to the minimal requirements (in issues such as full comprehension of clefs) so as to make the answer to your question obvious. By virtue of the fact that it would be far more difficult to learn/employ such _without learning clefs etc., _than it would be with_ learning them._

To be sure there is a middle way. But you obviated any such thing by the completeness of your list of music-comprehension goals. 

Hey, my responses are not intended to be at all dismissive or with any critical subtext. Just answering honestly and sincerely trying to be helpful.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 25, 2020)

I really thank you all. Taking the time to answer means a lot more to me than getting the exact answer I need.

Cheers


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## Dave Connor (Mar 25, 2020)

robgb said:


> Exactly why I called it a means of communication. But McCartney didn't need those symbols to create the horn player's part.


Right, but his question wasn’t about communicating simple ideas (assuming his humming capabilities are up to snuff) but rather _learning counterpoint without understanding the clefs - _and so forth. Very few folks with even a cursory knowledge of that particular art and science are going to sign on to the feasibility of a proposal such as that.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 25, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> Right, but his question wasn’t about communicating simple ideas (assuming his humming capabilities are up to snuff) but rather _learning counterpoint without understanding the clefs - _and so forth. Very few folks with even a cursory knowledge of that particular art and science are going to sign on to the feasibility to a proposal such as that.



Exactly. I am the ultimate Beatles fan but what McCartney was attempting to create in their/his pop rock songs was not what he attempted in his oratorio, where he had to enlist someone who knew all that music theory.


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## d.healey (Mar 25, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Zeros and Ones


The western music system is wonderful for software developers because it is based on mathmatical principles.

Each note has a frequency, there are 12 notes in a scale (12 is a very divisible number), note lengths are multiples of 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, etc.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 25, 2020)

d.healey said:


> The western music system is wonderful for software developers because it is based on mathmatical principles.
> 
> Each note has a frequency, there are 12 notes in a scale (12 is a very divisible number), note lengths are multiples of 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, etc.



I see lots of developers who play classical pieces. And one I knew personally left the entire software development career just to be sit behind a DAW like me. LOL


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## JJP (Mar 25, 2020)

You may not know it, but you are getting feedback in this thread from some professional orchestrators and composers who actually work in Hollywood making film and TV music, some for major studio projects. From what I see, these people are the ones who are politely saying that learning notation is a crucial skill for advancing your abilities.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 25, 2020)

JJP said:


> You may not know it, but you are getting feedback in this thread from some professional orchestrators and composers who actually work in Hollywood making film and TV music, some for major studio projects. From what I see, these people are the ones who are politely saying that learning notation is a crucial skill for advancing your abilities.



Please look up and you will find that I am also politely thanked everyone. No, I didn't know that Hollywood composers are here. No one told me that before. Even if that is the case, I am also being polite. No need to direct me of what is right or wrong.


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## JJP (Mar 25, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Please look up and you will find that I am also politely thanked everyone. No, I didn't know that Hollywood composers are here. No one told me that before. Even if that is the case, I am also being polite. No need to direct me of what is right or wrong.



Hey there, not saying you are impolite or trying to direct you. Just wanted you to be aware that some very experienced people are taking time to share their experience in this thread. That's part of what makes this forum such a gem.


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## JohnG (Mar 25, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> the only way for me to learn notations is through GAMES. Otherwise, I will shoot myself twice at the center of my head.



Twice -- hmm -- maybe you might miss the first time? You have a small head, possibly?

I know it's kind of boring but, it's also kind of worth it.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 25, 2020)

JJP said:


> Hey there, not saying you are impolite or trying to direct you. Just wanted you to be aware that some very experienced people are taking time to share their experience in this thread. That's part of what makes this forum such a gem.



And I thanked them, come on man. It wasn't related to my question, completely off topic, and wasn't necessary. Because VI control is such a gem, let's keep it that way. It's just like saying "Donal Tram is coming, so keep it together, organize your shirt, and tighten your tie".


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 25, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Twice -- hmm -- maybe you might miss the first time? You have a small head, possibly?
> 
> I know it's kind of boring but, it's also kind of worth it.



I missed the first time once I got the hang of the EGBDF - FACE but the second one went right to the center of my skull when I knew that I have to memorize GBDFA - ACEG ...


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## JJP (Mar 25, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> And I thanked them, come on man. It wasn't related to my question, completely off topic, and wasn't necessary. Because VI control is such a gem, let's keep it that way.



Okay then, I'll see myself out.


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## chillbot (Mar 25, 2020)

Everything you need is here:

https://discord.gg/0vF7cfyHaTDLf8YB


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## Living Fossil (Mar 25, 2020)

A basic point of view:

The history of so called "classical music" is also the "history of music that uses tempered systems" (which in this thread is off topic) and it's also the "history of notated music".

There are lots of musical cultures that rely on different kinds of notation (just look at a traditional tibetan "score" that doesn't focus on exact pitches but on fluent pitch movements) or even of no notation.
- Rock music and also traditional folk music are great examples for these.
I do even tend to say that the _lack of notation _added a lot of several developments.
E.g. in folk music of the alps (and lots of different ones) or rock music you sometimes find a kind of polytonality when e.g. the bass player plays a minor third in a major chord. Etc.
Or in music based on sampled stuff you sometimes find interesting approaches that created styles.
Take e.g. those sampled Minor7/9/11 chords in DrumNBass or Chillout tracks.
Often you find harmonic progressions you maybe wouldn't find with a more traditional approach.
Something like Em7/9 - D#m7/9 - Em7/9 - Bbm7/9 etc.
The way you work modifies what you do.

Now, notated music was necessary to develop this enormous complex thing called "tonality".
It relies on so many aspects that you just can categorize and make conscious. You can create systems that bear in themselves intelligence.
Also, the formal complexity that you find in fugues or symphonic pieces also are based on the system of making sketches and reflect the whole thing. (Just look at Beethoven's sketches)
Now lets add a thought to this:
You will sometimes encounter the argument:
"I don't want to follow rules".
Now, here's the thing:
They are rules as long as you undergo training.
Afterwards, they are only containers full of aquired wisdom and experience.
They are algorithms that work in a way like:
If you are here after been there you could take this direction, but keep in mind what that other voice does.
No serious composer follows rules when they are contrary to their intentions.
But you may find yourself in situations where something sounds a bit off.
And often you will see there are "rules" that try to prevent similar constellations.


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## mikeh-375 (Mar 25, 2020)

robgb said:


> ..............The second half of this statement is not only wrong but has the odor of elitism. I'm sure that wasn't what you intended, however. There is definitely more than one way to achieve competence and excellence and this is proven every day in many different fields, including music.



Rob, I should have precisely defined excellence in the way I used it. That is, a mastery of composition and instrumentation that melds on the page as one cogent synergy producing works such as the great masters have. It's not a form of elitism to state what is required of one to acquire such excellence of course, it is simply the way it is. Getting as close as one is able to this standard can be attained by anyone with a talent, but not via a DAW and samples.

Other than that, I'm all for different approaches and some of my favourite music is written by non-readers (to be clear, I _do not_ mean that pejoratively). There is no elitist whiff on my part, but realistically speaking, a non-reader cannot expect to be, shall we say, as masterful in these matters as anyone who has taken the path to learning and self-discovery that Ravel, Stravinsky, Elgar, Britten, Tchaikovsky, Korsakoff et al did.


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## Alexandre (Mar 25, 2020)

This thread is really useful and inspiring thanks to all participating in it...such a wealth of unpretentious pro composers in this thread! thanks to ot too for his out of the box approach. yes vi c is a real gem no doubt about it!!


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## Dave Connor (Mar 26, 2020)

I can see what is leading to certain contentions which aren’t really necessary. The culprit is a common one: a lack of agreement on terminology. _Counterpoint _by definition historically, is quite an involved and exacting science. That is to say, you wouldn’t be allowed into a college course unless at a very minimum you were able to read the clefs at some level of proficiency (which is distinct from being a proficient sight-reader in performance.) The same as a course in story-writing would require basic English or a Pre-Med student required to study biology.

The point being that writing in _contrary motion _or _counter melodies _or even _multiple melodic lines _would be considered a few of the techniques found in C_ounterpoint _while leaving out countless others and not even beginning to address the monumental consideration of _Form. _Consider someone understanding a few aspects of the cardiovascular system but nothing at all about the skeletal structure.

While one person may understand and practice a few of the techniques of Co_unterpoint, _another may think that person doesn’t really have a working knowledge of the subject as a whole. Obviously one can write very effective contrapuntal textures such as Brian Wilson, Lennon and McCartney and countless others in film and elsewhere. The context here however is, _Learning Counterpoint _(read: The vast subject of the pinnacle of the art of composition in Western Art Music as practiced by J.S. Bach) _without understanding the musical clef. _A very tall order and understandably dismissed by a large number of studied musicians.

Neither side of the argument is really wrong. One side knows full well that one can write a counter melody or even multi-voice texture not just intuitively - but with real genius - having never stepped inside a music classroom in their lives. The other side thinks: how are you even going to begin to understand a Bach two-part invention let alone a five voice fugue if you can’t identify a single note... in either clef? Write for orchestra? You’ve just added several more clefs you must understand.

Indeed the reason _understanding_ _the rules _is so consistently insisted upon as a requirement for those who wish to write for the orchestra is not just because it has long been the home of the music of _schooled composers (_who employed a myriad of learned compositional techniques) but also because they must understand what it is the players themselves understand - so that they may transmit to them the information they require to perform the music. To say nothing of the fact that an orchestra is chock full of former students and current teachers who have a thorough understanding of music fundamentals (often including composition) at a very high level.

As in most discussions it may be helpful to say, _It depends on what you mean by ______. _In one instance in this discussion, it is - what does the OP and everyone else mean by _counterpoint?_


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## mikeh-375 (Mar 26, 2020)

I watched a classic last night, 'Where Eagles dare'. If anyone wants a good example of counterpoint in film, listen to the opening credit music by Ron Goodwin...fugal principles abound from about 1'20" in.
The film is a few years old, but boy that music still packs a punch imv.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 26, 2020)

Alexandre said:


> This thread is really useful and inspiring thanks to all participating in it...such a wealth of unpretentious pro composers in this thread! thanks to ot too for his out of the box approach. yes vi c is a real gem no doubt about it!!



Alex, I agree with that indeed. That's why getting answers (even if not the desired ones) from wonderful composers here means he/she did read my question carefully, dedicated a slice of his/her time to answer, and did answer as thorough as they could. Personally, I learned a lot from this thread. Not only that !! I actually re-read the entire thread and wrote down points in my notebook. In my opinion, video tutorials, books, online classes, ...etc. are not complete without these types of forums. This is where real composers collaborate and benefit each other as well as beginners. I am not ashamed of myself of being a beginner. This is the way that everybody else know that I am a beginner and start to deal with me based on that and give me information tailored only for my level. Heck !!! I even know that when I reach an advanced level I will still need to re-visit some basic fundamentals.

Peaceeeeeeee !!!!!!


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## SupremeFist (Mar 27, 2020)

Counterpoint is the discrete motion of two or more voices to produce a melodically and harmonically satisfying effect. 

There you go, you've learned counterpoint! If you want to know anything more you'll have to learn musical notation.


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## Rob (Mar 30, 2020)

robgb said:


> Also, notation is merely a form of communication. Its purpose is to allow you to communicate to other musicians the music you have inside your head. But it isn't required to create that music. And it isn't required to understand harmony, counterpoint, et al. Some people simply use their ears. Now, if they want to communicate to an orchestra, then yes, notation is essential. But we have amazing tools nowadays that allow us to do that without being experts. Also the notion of amanuensis is not a new one, and there are people who make a living at it.


I disagree that notation is a mere form of communicating the ideas you have in your head. To a certain extent, notation is where those ideas are born... it's the cause, and music is the effect... at least, it's the language that allows the brain to form the ideas.


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## JohnG (Mar 30, 2020)

I agree with @Rob to some extent. For one thing, it's a thousand times faster if you can read notation to inspect scores of others and discern how they created this or that effect. That alone is a good enough reason for me.

And also, if you want to have an ace orchestra listen to you, and you don't know notation -- they won't.


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## ism (Mar 30, 2020)

I guess instead of learning notation, you could just reinvent counterpoint. You’re unlikely to get as far as Bach, but there are principles of counterpoint that, knowing what what you’re looking for feels like, you could reinvent.

Would probably take several hundred years to completely reinvent it, but you can re-invent some of the basics yourself.


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## Fry777 (Apr 1, 2020)

You could be interested by Michael Hewitt's series of books "... for the computer musicans" which you can find on https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1598635034/ (Amazon), among other places.
I believe he has books covering Theory, Harmony, and also Composition in the same series.

Have a look at the preview on the product page, you'll see he explains concepts with notation along with its piano roll equivalence, like this (I believe this is from the Harmony book) :







In the long term, after you become comfortable with the core concepts it would then be beneficial to transition to reading notation to continue your learning process through more advanced books (Adler, etc) or scores.


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## SupremeFist (Apr 1, 2020)

Fry777 said:


> You could be interested by Michael Hewitt's series of books "... for the computer musicans" which you can find on https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1598635034/ (Amazon), among other places.
> I beleive he has books covering Theory, Harmony, and also Composition in the same series.
> 
> Have a look at the preview on the product page, you'll see he explains concepts with notation along with its piano roll equivalence, like this (I believe this is from the Harmony book) :
> ...


Perhaps I'm biased because I learned notation long before I saw a sequencer, but to me this image is a perfect illustration of why piano roll is a terrible format for conveying harmonic content. And that's not so surprising when you consider it was originally invented to be machine-readable, not human-readable.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 1, 2020)

Fry777 said:


> You could be interested by Michael Hewitt's series of books "... for the computer musicans" which you can find on https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1598635034/ (Amazon), among other places.
> I beleive he has books covering Theory, Harmony, and also Composition in the same series.
> 
> Have a look at the preview on the product page, you'll see he explains concepts with notation along with its piano roll equivalence, like this (I believe this is from the Harmony book) :
> ...



Thank you, Sir.


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## robgb (Oct 1, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Exactly. I am the ultimate Beatles fan but what McCartney was attempting to create in their/his pop rock songs was not what he attempted in his oratorio, where he had to enlist someone who knew all that music theory.


If you actually study McCartney's songs (the stuff The Beatles did later, when George Martin had far less control), you'll see that he understands music theory quite well, even though he can't read music. I would imagine he learned much of it through listening and osmosis. I checked his orchestral works and saw no credits for an orchestrator (maybe the conductor?), but even if he had one (and I assume he must have) that wouldn't make him any different from a multitude of composers.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 1, 2020)

robgb said:


> If you actually study McCartney's songs (the stuff The Beatles did later, when George Martin had far less control), you'll see that he understands music theory quite well, even though he can't read music. I would imagine he learned much of it through listening and osmosis. I checked his orchestral works and saw no credits for an orchestrator (maybe the conductor?), but even if he had one (and I assume he must have) that wouldn't make him any different from a multitude of composers.



Yes, the conductor was the orchestrator. Paul understands _some_ theory, but Ravel he isn't.


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## Selfinflicted (Oct 2, 2020)

Music notation is actually fairly simple and straight forward to learn. It is musical literacy. Once learned, it opens you up to a whole ton of things - both in learning and writing music. You will be much faster in the end.

you don't have to be an amazing sight reader, but without being able to read to some degree learning orchestration and counterpoint will be extremely difficult.

learning to read music -
the simplest thing to consider if you're thinking about the piano (which is great for learning theory, because you can see everything laid out in front of you) is just turn the staff sideways in your head (clock-wise 90 degrees). middle C in the middle, treble cleff to the right, bass cleff to the left. It is then as it is laid out on the piano. this really helps in thinking about intervals, which are the building blocks of music.

another way to quickly help with learning to read is copying (writing out) things in music notation. So, look at a piece of printed music and copy the notes out. write out what the notes are in letter names if you need to, and then write them out as you see them in notation (now knowing what the notes are). Next step you can then transpose between cleffs (put something in treble cleff down an octave or two, etc into bass cleff, or bass cleff to treble go up).

there are whole systems of learning music that have developed over the centuries. Why reinvent the wheel. Don't be afraid of being musically literate. You'll be able to absorb and create music much faster.

when you're reading becomes decent do a little solfege everyday and you'll eventually be able to hear in your head what you see on paper and write out what you hear (in your head or from a recording). That is actually the greatest aid in learning and creating music. A good ear. Learning notation is a great way to handle the large amounts of information that music can be.


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## Selfinflicted (Oct 2, 2020)

robgb said:


> If you actually study McCartney's songs (the stuff The Beatles did later, when George Martin had far less control), you'll see that he understands music theory quite well, even though he can't read music. I would imagine he learned much of it through listening and osmosis. I checked his orchestral works and saw no credits for an orchestrator (maybe the conductor?), but even if he had one (and I assume he must have) that wouldn't make him any different from a multitude of composers.



People love to cite examples like Paul McCartney. He is clearly a musical genius. He has done what he has done IN SPITE of not being able to read and write music well. Pretty amazing, but the exception, not the rule.

Don't forget about the plethora of amazing musicians who could or can read and write music. All of the great 'classical' masters could obviously read and write music. And there are far more pop and rock musicians that can and don't talk about it. Learning to read and write music certainly will not get in the way and really doesn't take a huge amount of time each day. It just takes consistent practice and some patience.

I don't know why someone would want to limit themselves and not learn to read music. You don't have to be an amazing sight reader, but being able to understand basic things about a piece of music from looking at it is a huge help in understanding music. Anyone can listen to a piece of music, but understand it? Know how it works?

Back to McCartney - people like that end up coming up with a system of music on their own - a way of understanding music. He clearly had a much deeper understanding of the in's and out's of music than Lennon did (that's not saying anything about their individual taste in music - completely different conversation, as are lyrics). But, why go and re-invent the wheel in it's entirety? Unless you have a real optical/neurological issue like dyslexia or something, why not learn to read music to some level? Some people think learning to read (or learning theory) is going to straight jacket them. Why? How? It's just a resource like watching a youtube video, but in many ways much deeper. At the end of the day we all have to come to our own understandings of music (an on going process) - but, knowing how to read music greatly increases our ability to assimilate musical information, especially at a deeper level. Everybody listens, but not everybody reads.


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## Selfinflicted (Oct 2, 2020)

If you want to put it in the context of present-day film composers - take Hans Zimmer. People love to cite him as an example of someone who doesn't read/write music notation. Obviously, great, iconic composer. He says he can't really read music very well - doesn't write notation, etc. But, look at all the people who've come through his place? How many of those very successful composers read music? The great vast majority. A good many of them are extremely well trained. McCartney and Zimmer have had greatly talented people around them who can read and write music.

And then look at style. Someone like John Williams is fantastic at writing a really memorable melody and some really intricate, but effective music. Zimmer's music is sonically amazing - just top notch. But, would you say he writes the most memorable melodies? Does his music play out in a way like John Williams', or even John Powell's (ala How To Train Your Dragon)? Or is it more minimalistic - more based on specific ideas simpler ideas. Think Batman (which sounds to me like a deconstructed version of the Elfman theme). I'm not bashing it - that's stuff's great. I'm just saying it's different and it's much harder to go that Williams route if you can't read/notate music.

Yes, Zimmer can compose more involved music, ala the begining of Man of Steel when they're on Krypton - some of his best work. But, generally, I think that is not his forte. Sound and production are every bit as important or more than the notes themselves.

(what are the first things you hear in your head when you think of WIlliams - maybe the theme for Star Wars, or Indiana Jones. What's the first thing you hear in your head thinking of Zimmer? BRRAAHHHHHMMMM! Or the chugging away and slow swells of Batman (again, same chords as Elfman's)? The chugging and organ noodles of Interstellar? Gladiator (that honestly sounds like a cadential exercise from theory 101 class).

At the end of the day, it comes down to what type of music you want to write or be able to write (especially if you want to do it with greater ease). Study, learn, get experience doing that. reading music only helps - doesn't hurt.

If you want to learn orchestration and counter point - learn to read music at least some. simple as that. Even theory gets a lot easier to learn if you can read at least some.


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