# Spitfire dropping Kontakt for HZ Strings



## Daniel James (Feb 28, 2018)

Hey All,

I am sure you all saw the new announcement of the Spitfire HZ Strings, which sounded amazing. What some missed however is that it is hosted in its own new non Kontakt (from what I can tell) Engine.

We have seen companies do this before (EW PLAY is a great example) and we all know how that story goes xD

What do you guys think?

I love the sound of the library so I am absolutly willing to give it a shot. But as I mentioned in other threads, ditching an engine such as Kontakt which has had so much development, over so much time will be a risk.

Thoughts!

-DJ

p.s Nice one Spitfire. It really does sound good!

https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/artists/hans-zimmer/hans-zimmer-strings/

Also I totally feel a 5 hour overview coming on xD


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## ThomasNL (Feb 28, 2018)

It feels like they are very confident with this new engine, so i got my hopes up. oh and someone said on another topic that in a q&a they said:
*Does this mean you are no longer releasing libraries in Kontakt?*
No. We will still be making Kontakt libraries.

Looking forward to your overview


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## John Busby (Feb 28, 2018)

i'm totally down for developers branching out with their own creativity and having the liberty to do so with any advancements in technology.
if this somehow enhances the way Spitfire or any other devs can script, code, produce libraries then great.
i just hope that SF does their due diligence to roll out a stable, tried and tested platform that they have the man power to support and to further its development


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## Mornats (Feb 28, 2018)

It'll be interesting to find out what the bespoke engine gives that Kontakt doesn't. There has to be a lot of pros to outweigh the development costs.


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## jamwerks (Feb 28, 2018)

This should protect their libraries in a way that Kontakt wasn't doing. Being as big as they are, it's only natural that they have their own sampler...


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## Zhao Shen (Feb 28, 2018)

Not sure if it's good or bad, but I'm leaning toward good. Spitfire is a pretty consistent company. They either made this move because they don't want to keep paying NI for all of eternity, or because they aren't comfortable with being married to a platform where someone else controls the development cycle. Hope it's the latter - being a company with such a focus on orchestral sampling, I could see SA doing great stuff if they started developing more niche engine functionality.


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## zolhof (Feb 28, 2018)

HZ Strings in a nutshell: 344 players, 184GB, proprietary player, $599 (intro offer)





Judging by the demos, not only the tone is gorgeous, the library looks really playable.

I'm always thrilled to see developers giving us easier tools to work with, imho it's all about the creative flow and fast results. If I can spend more time writing music instead of tweaking a library, I think we're on the right path.

Kontakt is a solid platform, but we could all see this one coming from a mile away haha If the new player does what's supposed to do and it's well optimized, I'm all up for it.

It could also be a big middle finger to pirates.


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## Daniel James (Feb 28, 2018)

zolhof said:


> HZ Strings in a nutshell: 344 players, 184GB, proprietary player, $599 (intro offer)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Watching the CPU meter on Pauls video has me a little worried. CPU spikes of 30% with just one instrument playing. I don't have the engine yet so I cant tell if thats just the engines interpretation of the data or if loading 3 HZ engine patches will kill my session.

Also it doesn't look like you can start playing until its fully loaded into RAM (I think they edit out that load time a bit in Pauls)

-DJ


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## zvenx (Feb 28, 2018)

I am sure I have read that HZ wasn't fond of the sound of the Kontakt engine. 
Rsp


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 28, 2018)

I'd prefer more companies developing their dedicated software. I don't particularly like Kontakt. Particularly with SF libraries, Kontakt drives me nuts. 
At the same time, seeing what VSL is able to do with their stuff because they have their own awesome player - I think it's the way to go for further advancements in sampling.


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## jamwerks (Feb 28, 2018)

Does this new sampler have a name?

Wonder if it's a "child" of HZ's personal sampler that's been around for several years?


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## ThomasNL (Feb 28, 2018)

This is a comment of Sam Fuller on the GCN facebook page:


> I had the pleasure of testing/workshopping this interface in the development stage.
> 
> Not much to say except it works as good as it looks. Super clean, really easy to use/programme. It is an easy change over for any existing Spitfire user
> 
> ...


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## Geoff Grace (Feb 28, 2018)

Spitfire has already shown its willingness to migrate away from Kontakt when partnering with others. (Think Phobos.)

Considering they've reiterated that they will still be making Kontakt libraries, today's announcement seems to be more of a foray rather than a momentous shift.

Best,

Geoff


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## khollister (Feb 28, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Watching the CPU meter on Pauls video has me a little worried. CPU spikes of 30% with just one instrument playing. I don't have the engine yet so I cant tell if thats just the engines interpretation of the data or if loading 3 HZ engine patches will kill my session.
> 
> Also it doesn't look like you can start playing until its fully loaded into RAM (I think they edit out that load time a bit in Pauls)
> 
> -DJ


I get indicated CPU spikes in Logic (or Cubase) of more than that with a single record-armed Spitfire performance legato (SSS or SCS), so assuming it was a legato that doesn't seem too bad. I need to watch the video myself.

UPDATE: Hmmm - I sort of share Daniel's concern now. Watched the video and also tried a SSS perf legato and watched the CPU indicator in Kontakt - averaged about 3-5%. Of course that is one mic and I have no idea what Paul was actually playing.

I'm sure we will get to ground truth soon enough - I seriously doubt I'm purchasing this anyway since I'm gravitating to smaller ensembles (and the price). It will be interesting if they use this for the choir lib.


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## Daniel James (Feb 28, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> Spitfire has already shown its willingness to migrate away from Kontakt when partnering with others. (Think Phobos.)
> 
> Considering they've reiterated that they will still be making Kontakt libraries, today's announcement seems to be more of a foray rather than a momentous shift.
> 
> ...



True but this is their first orchestral deviation. I feel like it *might* become more standard for them, when this sells the bucket loads of copies.



ThomasNL said:


> The reason for migrating away from kontakt I believe is that kontakt is very restricting for sample companies.
> Creating their own programme means they can mould it to whatever they want how ever they want with no limits



I can't see anything major in the engine Kontakt can't do. It has MOD, expression, Reverb and release.....I can't even tell if it has keyswitches???

Also I can't tell, but it doesn't seem like we can use this multi-timbrally which is the way I tend to work.

-DJ


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## jamwerks (Feb 28, 2018)

The only reason for them to continue putting out Kontakt libraries would be to fulfill any contracts they signed with NI.

This explains why we haven't seen some expected updates (stereo mixes for SSS, Playable patches for SCS, SWW, SSB, etc). All those updates will probably be on their new player...


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## Mornats (Feb 28, 2018)

Something to consider, and particularly with this 180GB library, is that a move away from Kontakt is a move away from NCW lossless compression. Unless of course Spitfire have developed their own compression or are using another type of compression.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 28, 2018)

zvenx said:


> I am sure I have read that HZ wasn't fond of the sound of the Kontakt engine.
> Rsp



Has nothing to do with that. Why would they then do HZ Perc on Kontakt?


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## procreative (Feb 28, 2018)

Pros:
1. They can control piracy better, and as the first product it will probably stand a good chance.

2. They can more easily lock out scripts/under the hood stuff, protecting their IP.

Cons:
1. High development cost both monetary and resources (potentially).

From an end users perspective, what if they realise this route becomes untenable? Then you are left with samples that potentially have a shelf life once OS updates render the player unuseable.

My Pros:
1. Sounds good
2. Intro price is good
3. Flexible Player Size/Mic setup

My Cons:
1. Going to be CPU/Ram hungry
2. Almost too much choices (personal experience based on owning first HZP release)
3. Not enough "new" articulations
4. 60 Players per section starts to become like hearing sections with a chorus/detune effect applied (felt the same about 8W/Majestica).

Its tempting at that intro, but I am spoiled for strings already, no, yes, no, yes.......


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## Living Fossil (Feb 28, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> We have seen companies do this before (EW PLAY is a great example) and we all know how that story goes xD
> 
> What do you guys think?



We will see.
While i don't like the PLAY engine, i still think that VSL's approach with the Vienna instruments is better than the solutions within Kontakt.


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## Daniel James (Feb 28, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> We will see.
> While i don't like the PLAY engine, i still think that VSL's approach with the Vienna instruments is better than the solutions within Kontakt.



But VSL has been developing their engine for years. Its always a risk moving away from something with so much development time invested already.

-DJ


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## zolhof (Feb 28, 2018)

Mornats said:


> Something to consider, and particularly with this 180GB library, is that a move away from Kontakt is a move away from NCW lossless compression. Unless of course Spitfire have developed their own compression or are using another type of compression.



Straight from the manual:

* 195804 samples
* 424.11GB uncompressed
* 183.27GB required space

Compared to something similar in size like HZ Piano, I think it's on par with ncw.


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## zvenx (Feb 28, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Has nothing to do with that. Why would they then do HZ Perc on Kontakt?


Maybe it wasn't ready yet? Rsp


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## Daniel James (Feb 28, 2018)

zolhof said:


> Straight from the manual:
> 
> * 195804 samples
> * 424.11GB uncompressed
> ...



Heh large sample counts like that always worry me. You know there has to be some form of automation in their editing. It would take years to edit each one individually to make it perfect xD

Also thats a big fucking download right there.

-DJ


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## Symfoniq (Feb 28, 2018)

I have no problem with companies ditching Kontakt. There's a lot to dislike about Kontakt, IMO, and nothing keeps me wedded to it except that everyone uses it.

While some people are quick to point to the disaster that was early versions of PLAY, Vienna Instruments Player is a great example of an in-house player done right.


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## Alex Fraser (Feb 28, 2018)

So what's the general VIC consensus? Are Spitfire going to leave Kontakt for good over the next few years?
With labs sporting the same player..?


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## ryanstrong (Feb 28, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Also I can't tell, but it doesn't seem like we can use this multi-timbrally which is the way I tend to work.


This would be my concern as well.


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## Living Fossil (Feb 28, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> But VSL has been developing their engine for years. Its always a risk moving away from something with so much development time invested already.



Yes, but while VSL developped their engine, they still supported other formats (Giga, EXS24) and released for these.
Maybe Spitfire did the same over the last years (it would explain why there was no time to fix some minor bugs  )


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## procreative (Feb 28, 2018)

Well before Kontakt was Gigastudio, so replacing an industry standard can be done. But in such a mature market its a big undertaking. 

Plus there are many variables such as potentially lack of ability for Multis, CPU usage, compatability with DAWs, VEP etc.

I mean Ive got stuff that runs on VSL, UVI, Engine, Play, but for me Kontakt has been the least tetchy overall.


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## NoamL (Feb 28, 2018)

khollister said:


> I seriously doubt I'm purchasing this anyway since I'm gravitating to smaller ensembles (and the price).



That is where I am at too @khollister . This is an interesting project and clearly very well sampled. But it's not a sound that really grabs me. Sounds like being lost at sea and makes me a little anxious. I miss the definition... this library is like the big big big brother to Scary Strings and Evo Strings. The tremolo harmonics and the gallery cellos are really great and unique but I probably won't buy the lib just for them.


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## Daniel James (Feb 28, 2018)

Symfoniq said:


> I have no problem with companies ditching Kontakt. There's a lot to dislike about Kontakt, IMO, and nothing keeps me wedded to it except that everyone uses it.
> 
> While some people are quick to point to the disaster that was early versions of PLAY, Vienna Instruments Player is a great example of an in-house player done right.



As I mentioned above VSL have been developing their own engines for years. Creating your own from scratch in this competitive market is a risk. Its probably why they are doing it with the HZ library and not a standard Spitfire release. The HZ tag alone is going to shift units so it will mitigate the risk somewhat. For their sake I hope its flawless, because while the HZ Strings lib is going to sell regardless of a good/bad new engine. If the engine is lacking over its Kontakt counterparts you will have a lot of people disappointed to have an awesome sounding library that they can't use as much as they want due to the engine (an experience I had with Hollywood Strings back in the day)

-DJ


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## simmo75 (Feb 28, 2018)

As someone who owns and is hugely disappointed with there previous attempt at straying away from Kontakt, I will not be buying into this. It sounds beautiful and looks lovely but my Phobos experience and lack of product updates and interest from Spitfire makes me skeptical. 
Hopefully they’ll prove me wrong but I’m definitely going to hold back for a fair few months at this price.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 28, 2018)

Neither PLAY nor VSL's engines were flawless at initial release...


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## Daniel James (Feb 28, 2018)

simmo75 said:


> As someone who owns and is hugely disappointed with there previous attempt at straying away from Kontakt, I will not be buying into this. It sounds beautiful and looks lovely but my Phobos experience and lack of product updates and interest from Spitfire makes me skeptical.
> Hopefully they’ll prove me wrong but I’m definitely going to hold back for a fair few months at this price.



Yeah I have read a few threads about Spitfires slow updates, however to be totally fair I can imagine this library will be their flagship for a bit so they will be trying to make it work asap for a few months at least.

-DJ


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## thevanman (Feb 28, 2018)

do we really need this library? their string libraries seem to focus on articulations which are more gimmicky than bread and butter type stuff...


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## MPortmann (Feb 28, 2018)

Hope the new engine is better than Phobos. That has been buggy for me where I won't use it anymore as it's not dependable


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## muziksculp (Feb 28, 2018)

zvenx said:


> I am sure I have read that HZ wasn't fond of the sound of the Kontakt engine.
> Rsp



I don't like it either.


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## zeng (Feb 28, 2018)

In that league; I think 8dio's 8W has more options like ARCs...and legatos seem sounding similar?


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## muziksculp (Feb 28, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Has nothing to do with that. Why would they then do HZ Perc on Kontakt?



Because Percussion is not as critical as Strings when we it comes to timbre, textures, sustained sounds, ..etc.


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## jononotbono (Feb 28, 2018)

Just watching the walkthrough now. Loving the sound of this so much. The player's GUI looks great and who knows what the player will be like until it's released. The sheer creative options with this (to me) are fantastic especially the panning options and everything playing back in Waves etc. Haven't been this excited for a library for a while!


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## windshore (Feb 28, 2018)

MPortmann said:


> Hope the new engine is better than Phobos. That has been buggy for me where I won't use it anymore as it's not dependable


This is my concern as well. Phobos has lots of potential but it's not realized - even yet. It's clunky - especially the organization and access to presets. I would bet that anyone buying this lib will have a good 6 - 12 months of frustrations even if it mainly works well....


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## ryanstrong (Feb 28, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> As I mentioned above VSL have been developing their own engines for years.



Do we know how long Spitfire has been in development with this engine?


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## Daniel James (Feb 28, 2018)

ryanstrong said:


> Do we know how long Spitfire has been in development with this engine?



Probably not as long as VSL, Kontakt or even PLAY XD

-DJ


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## NoamL (Feb 28, 2018)

The size worries me as much / more than the engine. It is twice the size of Berlin Brass and larger than HZPerc. Big libraries lead to underutilization. I calculated at one point that you would need about 150 GB to fully load a template of Berlin Brass (not even with all microphones, just a selection). Only the true professionals with enormous rigs have that capability. That lowers the size of the market of course.

Someone mentioned this being a "child" of "HZ's Sampler." That seems possible but unlikely because that sampler was created from scratch to work only in Windows.

Moving to a new sampler is interesting. I'm all for it. It helps them fight pirates which means better products for us. Only problem is there WILL be bugs. It's all a matter of how fast they can go from "PLAY v1" to "PLAY v6."


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## MPortmann (Feb 28, 2018)

windshore said:


> This is my concern as well. Phobos has lots of potential but it's not realized - even yet. It's clunky - especially the organization and access to presets. I would bet that anyone buying this lib will have a good 6 - 12 months of frustrations even if it mainly works well....



That's hard GUI to get around visually and ergonomically. We have so much continous learning w every new library and plugin that comes out, it's nice to have a common host where your eyes and mind know where to go to get the sound and tweaking you need. But let's see it before any judgment. There's a high bar w everyone here on these threads!


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## reutunes (Feb 28, 2018)

Can someone do me a quick roundup on what involvement Hans Zimmer actually had with the development of this library? I'm struggling to find that info.


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## Greg (Feb 28, 2018)

Huuuuge risk, but I am super excited that they're going for it!


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## Daniel James (Feb 28, 2018)

MPortmann said:


> That's hard GUI to get around visually and ergonomically. We have so much continous learning w every new library and plugin that comes out, it's nice to have a common host where your eyes and mind know where to go to get the sound and tweaking you need. But let's see it before any judgment. There's a high bar w everyone here on these threads!



When they are asking for $800 of course the bar of expectation is high haha

-DJ


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## Puzzlefactory (Feb 28, 2018)

My main concern is load times (as I don’t use an ssd for my libraries). Kontakt is super quick (once batch resave is used), Play is painfully slow.


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## Garry (Feb 28, 2018)

reutunes said:


> Can someone do me a quick roundup on what involvement Hans Zimmer actually had with the development of this library? I'm struggling to find that info.



Yes, I missed the opening: did they say why he wasn’t there? Seemed very strange that he put his name to it, and wasn’t there at the launch. Not even via video link. When they thanked him at the end, to a black and white photo of him, the detachment was palpable. Similarly, very old footage (?) of them discussing sample libraries, at a very generic level, was similarly detached. Particularly when in the clip, he was making the point that sample libraries shouldn’t be realistic, they should produce somehthing you couldn’t naturally achieve... and then they release a 344 piece sampled orchestra, with the explicit objective of achieving the sound of a large string orchestra!

I’m a fan of the Spitfire marketing: even though I was disappointed it was the HZ Strings they released, I totally enjoyed the hype they generated, and genuinely looked forward to their announcement event. But aligning it so much with HZ, when the product itself seems to be inconsistent, I think was a marketing mistake.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Feb 28, 2018)

reutunes said:


> Can someone do me a quick roundup on what involvement Hans Zimmer actually had with the development of this library? I'm struggling to find that info.



What a question.his name of course.


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## catsass (Feb 28, 2018)

The manual answers a number of questions:
http://spitfire-www-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/manuals/HansZimmerStrings_UserManual.pdf


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## Wunderhorn (Feb 28, 2018)

I am not a big fan of the Kontakt engine either - but here is my important point why I have been favoring Kontakt-based libraries throughout the last years. It makes my workflow easier. setting up the template, setting up articulations and switching between them... It all follows a certain pattern. VSL is another nicer engine but every time I start using it I have to re-familiarize myself with it. Same with PLAY or Best Service Engine.

At the end of the day I want to make music and not fiddle around the peculiarities of different engines. When all is Kontakt I have less to think about and - let's face it - making music, especially with full orchestra and then some, is a complex enough process by itself, I'd rather keep it more simple, even if I end up missing out on a few few cutting edge features for the time being. Before these features are instrumental in me being able to create significantly better music, they have to be... well, really significantly better. I don't see this here (yet).

That said, I have enough geek in me to be interested. And love temptations that new features provide. But I also learned about the necessity to balance it out with production workflow. In the end you want to get from A to B. Sometimes that does not happen most effectively in the fanciest of cars. Anyway, I still applaud the courage of Spitfire to try out something new. Without that there would never be real innovation.


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## storyteller (Feb 28, 2018)

I like it. Kinda like LCO on steroids meets the out of this world vision of HZ, all done at AIR. I’m down with that.

Just a thought on the engine... after going crazy for a week trying to make 8dio’s Century Strings load efficiently (which I eventually did by editing the NKIs to load single mic positions only), I have to think the move to a proprietary sampler is because this just would not work at all in Kontakt without faster advancement by NI. Look at the number of mic positions and sample count. Century Strings has a a similar amount of samples and it struggles in the “all in one” style patch. 8dio has a job listing for an audio engine developer too... so they must be thinking the same thing.

Kind of a world of extremes. As long as it all helps the end users, I’m all for it. Such great times!


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## khollister (Feb 28, 2018)

catsass said:


> The manual answers a number of questions:
> http://spitfire-www-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/manuals/HansZimmerStrings_UserManual.pdf



Seems pretty clear this is NOT multi-timbral


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## Quasar (Feb 28, 2018)

The new engine doesn't appear to support offline activation, so I'm not enthusiastic about it unless either I'm wrong or the online requirement were to change. Whatever. I'm not in the market for a mammoth $600 string library anyway...


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## MarcelM (Feb 28, 2018)

maybe they are also dropping kontakt because of an upcoming subscription system? way easier to do instead of using kontakt and asking NI for permission (and also pay for it).

also if i were spitfire id have done the same instead of paying thousand and thousands of money to NI.


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## joebaggan (Feb 28, 2018)

VSL is proof that you can create a great playback/editing engine without Kontakt. Maybe VSL should get in the business of hosting other sample libs.


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## n9n9n9 (Feb 28, 2018)

I sure like using Kontakt to tweak the Spitfire libraries that I own. I re-pitch things, I hack in what I need to make them work with an MPE controller, change envelopes, etc. I do enough of that, actually, that I would be disinclined to buy a plugin based library.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 28, 2018)

If they work with a new engine they might also be more able to offer a subscribtion model at some point if they care to do so... like EastWest. If they have a similar licensing system.


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## Lassi Tani (Feb 28, 2018)

For your big, epic scores, gigantic number of string players in AIR hall.. hmm, not for me. I'm not fond of too flushed, silky sounds.

It doesn't seem to be much different to what's already out in market. E.g. many of the quiet patches are quite similar to what Tundra has. Sometimes the 60 player patches sound just like Albion 1 synths. Also there are not many articulations, and just one legato patch (no legato for e.g. sul tasto), but I guess that's what this library is. It's about interesting sounds, which just don't make me very excited yet.

After listening to the demos, I have some mixed thoughts. The library worked better for Christian's and Homay's demos (slow style), but I don't know what to say about Andy's demo, in my opinion the library definitely didn't shine in that demo (agile playing style) .

Oh well my wallet thanks me!


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## The Darris (Feb 28, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> We have seen companies do this before (EW PLAY is a great example) and we all know how that story goes xD



I think immediately buying into the idea that using their own engine is a gamble is a little early. Firstly, this engine isn't designed for 3rd party development that we know of. Aside from their LABS use of it, is this engine going to be used for future developments? Possibly but I doubt they are all in on that since the user base hasn't provided feedback. Just based on that live stream and what I know of the development of their first standalone plugin, Phobos, it seems like they took the proper steps in developing a proprietary piece of software designed for this type of application. Not to hate on Phobos but it came with a lot of headaches, especially for Win 7 users. One could say it was a little "convoluted."

I agree that the sound is very nice. Having heard some of HZ's String patches from back in the day, especially his Muted Strings which were recorded in Air, there is that quality to this library (really heard in Andy B's Demo). It actually sounds like a recording and by that, I mean you can feel the room versus just hearing it which I think that comes down to the mixing and recording techniques by and large. 




procreative said:


> 3. Not enough "new" articulations
> 4. 60 Players per section starts to become like hearing sections with a chorus/detune effect applied (felt the same about 8W/Majestica).



I agree with some of your opinions here but honestly the argument of "new" articulations doesn't seem fitting. It seems to have a nice balance of stylized and normal articulations to do the bulk of large scale string section writing. I could have said "epic" but that term pretty much has no definition anymore. I'm glad that this library sounds dynamic though. I was getting exhausted of the loudest FFF or softest pppppppppp libraries. 

Given the different placement positions and sections sizes, I feel like this won't be a huge issue with it sounding like a "chorus" or a detuned effect. But, I can see that happening to a lot of people who aren't adept at mixing and placement so if they are just stacking the full room section patches on top of each other, then yes. That could be a potential problem. 

Overall, I think the biggest thing going for this library is the sound quality, the modular room positioning for each section and that it's a very specific concept which helps keep the focus on a few things to be done really well versus a lot of things are can end up just being mediocre at best. 

-C


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## Leo (Feb 28, 2018)

According to Paul walkthrough it sound fine, but all articulation in this library are so typical for spitfire (albion V, LSO, masse, swarm...) I can not get rid of feeling there is real NEW impulse there, only megalomania with 344 players, 26 MIC, new own (risk) engine. Downsize for me is also space 188GB on ssd disc. (I knew I would live with 3MIC and 25GB..)
And what has actually HZ with this library? I think not so much, only "revolutionary" sitting (panning) and numbers of players.
The company is probably very rich, and therefore resigned on smarter solution. 
But sad fate the former star 8dio is a warning.

What I really like is GUI design, and wish for SP that all kontakt lib. have this clear design ideally in a readable size in 4K monitor.


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## Daniel James (Feb 28, 2018)

The Darris said:


> I think immediately buying into the idea that using their own engine is a gamble is a little early



I'm just basing this off of my experiences with other engines, but yes PLAY mostly. And Its just simple logic to me, Kontakt has been in development for longer than Spitfire has been a thing. It stands to reason that it would over this amount of development time, have more features for the end user. I was reading the manual and I can't see anything they are doing that one couldn't do in Kontakt. So the only reason I can see for doing it would be to not have to pay the licence fee to NI. 

As I mentioned in the other thread, I believe Spitfire now has investors and once you get to that point you start having a fiduciary duty to maximize profits for your shareholders. Thats like buisness 101. One of the first things that tend to go, is paying licence fees to other companies. So I don't see the decision to use a custom engine for this library as a one off, I see it as the start of their transition to a custom engine. 

Spitfire however has the benefit of seeing how other developers doing it wrong in the past, so I don't see a sudden shift to a new engine like we did with PLAY. I can see them trying a transitional approach, perhaps releasing on Kontakt and on the Spitfire Engine at the same time with new releases so that you have the option. Then slowly stopping releasing on Kontakt, then stopping updating Kontakt based. The only problem there is if they do end up releasing both Kontakt and Spitfire Engine at the same time, will they cost the same? Because if Kontakt has more features (built in effects and good background loading, multi timbral etc) I wouldn't pay the same for a less feature full version. If it was cheaper than the Kontakt however, maybe I would consider it....but that would still be based on how good/bad the engin actually is.

As others have mentioned I can also see this shift to a custom player being the start of a move towards a subscription based service. In issues liek this its best to think of Spitfire as a business not as the two guys. A business would much rather have a steady income over months than a projected income upon a new release. Its why you see companies like Adobe and Avid moving in that direction. I imagine this has been a topic they have been going into for a while and this engine definitely looks like its heading there.

I really hope its good XD

-DJ


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 28, 2018)

muziksculp said:


> Because Percussion is not as critical as Strings when we it comes to timbre, textures, sustained sounds, ..etc.



Wrong.


----------



## kgdrum (Feb 28, 2018)

I might be offbase with this but I wonder if the new Labs will be using their new proprietary player,not Kontakt.
I'm thinking Spitfire might be using the Labs to test porting legacy libraries away from Kontakt into the new Spitfire player?
Myself I'm ambivalent about the release of HZ Strings,I don't see a practical use for a string section of this kind of sound & size for my needs. 
The 1st generation of a new platform genuinely scares me,I dropped EW with the transition to Play. 
I'm not eager to trash,reinstall and purchase upgrades of legacy libraries if it comes to this.
I'm a huge Spitfire fan and have a ton of their libraries.
Todays developments and news has left me feeling like this is a new chapter with Spitfire I'm not looking forward to.......... ;-(


----------



## Anders Bru (Feb 28, 2018)

Garry said:


> (...) Similarly, very old footage (?) of them discussing sample libraries, at a very generic level, was similarly detached. Particularly when in the clip, he was making the point that sample libraries shouldn’t be realistic, (...)



Semi off-topic, but does anyone have a link to the roundtable-video shown in the announcement? Can't seem to find it (maybe it's not released yet?).


----------



## zolhof (Feb 28, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Heh large sample counts like that always worry me. You know there has to be some form of automation in their editing. It would take years to edit each one individually to make it perfect xD
> 
> Also thats a big fucking download right there.
> 
> -DJ



haha yes, it's one giant beast! 

I just finished watching the videos and I feel I own enough variants of this sound already. Still interested in the ridiculous amount of mic options, it's crazy how often that one particular sound you need is already there, perhaps hiding in a different mic position, instead of eqs and delays. A great contender for this year's thermonuclear Christmas.  


ps. @SpitfireSupport there's a weird release at 5:04 in Paul's walkthrough for your bugsmashers team to investigate.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 28, 2018)

Heroix said:


> maybe they are also dropping kontakt because of an upcoming subscription system?



Also nope, they're not dropping Kontakt. Says so in FAQ. And NI didn't announce subscription for Kontakt Player or any product in the Komplete range, so that's a bit far-fetched to assume.


----------



## rottoy (Feb 28, 2018)

It's interesting how this release is met with accolades, while 8Dios 66 Basses is met with ridicule.
The Zimmer name has the Midas touch.


----------



## muziksculp (Feb 28, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Wrong.



I know you are a Kontakt fan. But, it's not the best sounding sampler engine. I know you will disagree. But that's my position/opinion.


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## Daniel James (Feb 28, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Also nope, they're not dropping Kontakt. Says so in FAQ. And NI didn't announce subscription for Kontakt Player or any product in the Komplete range, so that's a bit far-fetched to assume.



We will see wont we. If HZ Strings is a huge success and they keep all the sales for the company without having to pay licence fees, it will be hard to justify using 3rd party engines, to shareholders, going forward.

Also I think they were talking about making their own engine so they could go subscription based. Not using Kontakt to go subscription based.

-DJ


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## muziksculp (Feb 28, 2018)

rottoy said:


> It's interesting how this release is met with accolades, while 8Dios 66 Basses is met with ridicule.
> The Zimmer name has the Midas touch.



Good point.


----------



## Kaufmanmoon (Feb 28, 2018)

I was sat in the room and pretty much everyone missed that exact point Daniel. I feel the free Gin might have have had something to do with it.

The proof will be in the pudding cpu wise once a few people get their hands on it.

Hats off to Spitfire and Air Studios, they really did look after everyone.


----------



## Karma (Feb 28, 2018)

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when it comes to CPU.


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## jonathanprice (Feb 28, 2018)

Looks like I'll have to upgrade from Windows 7....


----------



## Daniel James (Feb 28, 2018)

Karma said:


> I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when it comes to CPU.



From the video, this is using one patch...






Hard to see but it looked spikey. Thats at 33%, which goes down to like 2% when not in use, which suggests that it takes the 33% CPU (In this example) just to play back the samples.

In fairness this isnt with every patch but it is happening in some patches, in some places (usually with more notes as one would expect) it seems to use around 10%-20% for most things but I have seen some of the peaks go into the 40%+ CPU range. Which in a big project will bring in all the clicks and pops we were all mad at PLAY for having when they first released.

Its possible they havn't optimised the sample streaming part perfectly yet...but thats an advantage you have with something like Kontakt which has had that part down for a while

We wont know for sure till we get it in our hands, but I'm a little worried there.

-DJ


----------



## quantum7 (Feb 28, 2018)

I certainly can't blame Spitfire for getting out of the easily cracked Kontakt, but that said, I'm nervous about their new sample player engine. I spent over $2k on PLAY libraries years ago and finally gave up using them completely due to the years of frustration with PLAY's engine. My dream would have been for Kontakt to have released an iLok version actually. oh well!

Anyway, now for what I hope will be a positive with SF having their own sample engine. I really am hoping that SF will let us now download and demo for a few days any libraries that are released under their new sample engine. Maybe even a subscription service option. Imagine being able to try out an expensive library for a few days before buying it. That would be awesome in my book!


----------



## khollister (Feb 28, 2018)

Karma said:


> I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when it comes to CPU.


Hope so - the CPU display during Paul’s walkthrough video seemed a bit high


----------



## Maxime Luft (Feb 28, 2018)

zvenx said:


> I am sure I have read that HZ wasn't fond of the sound of the Kontakt engine.
> Rsp





EvilDragon said:


> Has nothing to do with that. Why would they then do HZ Perc on Kontakt?



haha please show me that one clip or article where Hans says "Actually, I don't like the sound of Kontakt"

Next time you could attach this music to your message and I won't ask any questions but beLIEve what you say


----------



## quantum7 (Feb 28, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Neither PLAY nor VSL's engines were flawless at initial release...


 I used for PLAY and VSL's engine from the very start, and I have to say that VSL waaaay ahead of PLAY.


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 28, 2018)

muziksculp said:


> I know you are a Kontakt fan. But, it's not the best sounding sampler engine. I know you will disagree. But that's my position/opinion.



There's nothing to do with it. I did comparisons between Kontakt, Falcon and Halion, their default interpolation is IDENTICAL. When setting them all up so that gain staging is the same from the loaded sample to the output and nulling them, they all null.

What's different sounding are the effects, and perhaps the way modulation is calculated. This is what WILL impart difference in sound - no argument about that! But as far as raw sample playback is concerned, there are no real world perceptible differences at least between these three that I tested. Also, interpolation methods are all well known and studied, if a sampler has higher quality interpolation, it's usually either a Hermite curve, polynomial or sinc interpolation...

This is not about having an opinion. This is about pure math. And testing things properly.


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 28, 2018)

quantum7 said:


> I used for PLAY and VSL's engine from the very start, and I have to say that VSL waaaay ahead of PLAY.



VSL had several years of head start when PLAY was fresh...


----------



## muziksculp (Feb 28, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> There's nothing to do with it. I did comparisons between Kontakt, Falcon and Halion, their default interpolation is IDENTICAL. When setting them all up so that gain staging is the same from the loaded sample to the output and nulling them, they all null.
> 
> What's different sounding are the effects, and perhaps the way modulation is calculated. This is what WILL impart difference in sound - no argument about that! But as far as raw sample playback is concerned, there are no real world perceptible differences at least between these three that I tested. Also, interpolation methods are all well known and studied, if a sampler has higher quality interpolation, it's usually either a Hermite curve, polynomial or sinc interpolation...
> 
> This is not about having an opinion. This is about pure math.



Even Pure Math has its limits.


----------



## kimarnesen (Feb 28, 2018)

sekkosiki said:


> For your big, epic scores, gigantic number of string players in AIR hall.. hmm, not for me. I'm not fond of too flushed, silky sounds.
> 
> It doesn't seem to be much different to what's already out in market. E.g. many of the quiet patches are quite similar to what Tundra has. Sometimes the 60 player patches sound just like Albion 1 synths. Also there are not many articulations, and just one legato patch (no legato for e.g. sul tasto), but I guess that's what this library is. It's about interesting sounds, which just don't make me very excited yet.
> 
> ...



I agree. Rarely do I listen to epic orchestral music thinking this isn't big enough. There's some mindblowing stuff with a normal symphony orchestra too! And I can make a lush sound layering Albion One with SCS as an example.


----------



## Maxime Luft (Feb 28, 2018)

muziksculp said:


> Even Pure Math has its limits.


yeah it's called placebo


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 28, 2018)

Maxime Luft said:


> yeah it's called placebo



Yep!

Math is the only truth in this world.


----------



## SchnookyPants (Feb 28, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Yep!
> 
> Math is the only truth in this world.


_mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm-mmmmmmmmmmm...._ That's good pi.


----------



## josephspirits (Feb 28, 2018)

quantum7 said:


> I certainly can't blame Spitfire for getting out of the easily cracked Kontakt, but that said, I'm nervous about their new sample player engine. I spent over $2k on PLAY libraries years ago and finally gave up using them completely due to the years of frustration with PLAY's engine. My dream would have been for Kontakt to have released an iLok version actually. oh well!
> 
> Anyway, now for what I hope will be a positive with SF having their own sample engine. I really am hoping that SF will let us now download and demo for a few days any libraries that are released under their new sample engine. Maybe even a subscription service option. Imagine being able to try out an expensive library for a few days before buying it. That would be awesome in my book!



I agree. It would be great to try out the libraries, and maybe removing Kontakt from the equation will help make demoing in that way possible at some point down the road. I also think that introducing the new plugin through the free Labs is a smart move, that way we can all get used to it while they work out the kinks.


----------



## Alex Fraser (Feb 28, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Also I think they were talking about making their own engine so they could go subscription based. Not using Kontakt to go subscription based.


So the "S" word was actually mentioned by Spitfire today?!?


----------



## David Chappell (Feb 28, 2018)

muziksculp said:


> Even Pure Math has its limits.


I don't know if it was intentional, but that's a pretty solid maths pun !


----------



## Daniel James (Feb 28, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> So the "S" word was actually mentioned by Spitfire today?!?


Sorry I was talking about the person commenting, not Spitfire themselves.

-DJ


----------



## jononotbono (Feb 28, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> So the "S" word was actually mentioned by Spitfire today?!?



No.


----------



## FriFlo (Feb 28, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Yep!
> 
> Math is the only truth in this world.








Wait a second ...


----------



## Alex Fraser (Feb 28, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Sorry I was talking about the person commenting, not Spitfire themselves.





jononotbono said:


> No.


Good. Because even though I'm not a fan of subscriptions, I'd have to have it. And then my brain would explode with the sudden availability of 50 orchestras and my family would never see me again.


----------



## cyoder (Feb 28, 2018)

rottoy said:


> It's interesting how this release is met with accolades, while 8Dios 66 Basses is met with ridicule.
> The Zimmer name has the Midas touch.


Heh, that crossed my mind as well.


----------



## procreative (Feb 28, 2018)

quantum7 said:


> Imagine being able to try out an expensive library for a few days before buying it. That would be awesome in my book!



Call me a cynic, but I doubt many developers would jump on this. I can think of quite a few libraries I would not have bought after trying them for a few days, how many developers would stand fully behind their releases?

Overall some intriguing features, but most articulations are the same core ones in SSS and SCS. I reckon this is going to be a bit of a behemoth to run unless like HZ you have a slave farm (the computer kind and not an army of studio assistants on zero hours contracts)...


----------



## kimarnesen (Feb 28, 2018)

After listening to the demos I would describe it as a really lush string pad for $599. In the more quicker passages in Blaney's demo it became very synthy.


----------



## Tekkera (Feb 28, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Wrong.


Differing opinions? Can't have that nonsense around here! My opinion is better than your opinion!


----------



## Audio Birdi (Feb 28, 2018)

zvenx said:


> I am sure I have read that HZ wasn't fond of the sound of the Kontakt engine.
> Rsp


This was the article explaining how RCP's SAM engine was made . Still a good read even now! Mark Wherry has developed a lot of useful software!
http://cdm.link/2012/10/interview-m...musical-instruments-hans-zimmer-collaborator/


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## jononotbono (Feb 28, 2018)

rottoy said:


> It's interesting how this release is met with accolades, while 8Dios 66 Basses is met with ridicule.
> The Zimmer name has the Midas touch.



Trying to understand why anyone would ridicule 8Dio making a Sample Library with 66 Basses? Creating new and exciting things to become playable musical instruments should be celebrated. Sure, using 66 Basses is a ridiculous number in the context of a Symphonic Orchestra but who gives a shit about anything like that when this context is writing music with whatever you want.


----------



## Tekkera (Feb 28, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> Trying to understand why anyone would ridicule 8Dio making a Sample Library with 66 Basses? Creating new and exciting things to become playable musical instruments should be celebrated. Sure, using 66 Basses is a ridiculous number in the context of a Symphonic Orchestra but who gives a shit about anything like that when this context is writing music with whatever you want.


Because 8dio shills their products way too hard. I remember there was some thread where a new account made a post about the 66 Basses as it had just come out. And also a similar reddit account posting at similar times shilling on a couple subs about the 66 Basses as well.

These weren't posts for like paid advertising forums, they were in a couple music related subs, and sample talk. Not even in the advertising section. Someone masquerading as a reuglar user even though it was clear it was someone internally.

I'm probably witch hunting, but that is just not right.


----------



## Daniel James (Feb 28, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> Good. Because even though I'm not a fan of subscriptions, I'd have to have it. And then my brain would explode with the sudden availability of 50 orchestras and my family would never see me again.



I wouldn't mind access to the full Spitfire archive for a monthly fee like Play. But the engine would have to be a 'PLAY v6' not a 'PLAY v1' for it to be worth while.

-DJ


----------



## NoamL (Feb 28, 2018)

The reason 66 basses is a ridiculous number (just IMO) is because they literally fill a 60 or 70 foot stage from left to right with 3 or 4 rows just because of sheer physical size. You can't have a close mic on 66 basses.


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## enyawg (Feb 28, 2018)

Regarding the imminent HZS library release with it’s enormous 195,804 samples, it appears they contain many similar articulations as the core ones in SSS and SCS or like various Albion’s and EVO’s arts.

Did SA really record all these new samples in Air Studios recently for HZS or is there a chance some could be re-hashed/ processed/ blended samples from current SA libraries that we already may own?

We would’t really know would we?... it’s just a thought as some of you guys have mentioned similarities.


----------



## jamwerks (Feb 28, 2018)

enyawg said:


> Regarding the imminent HZS library release with it’s enormous 195,804 samples, it appears they contain many similar articulations as the core ones in SSS and SCS or like various Albion’s and EVO’s arts.
> 
> Did SA really record all these new samples in Air Studios recently for HZS or is there a chance some could be re-hashed/ processed/ blended samples from current SA libraries that we already may own?
> 
> We would’t really know would we?... it’s just a thought as some of you guys have mentioned similarities.


More conspiracy theories...


----------



## enyawg (Feb 28, 2018)

Not at all, I’m probably one of their biggest clients, but they do have a lot of samples to access in their “Lolly shop” & as DJ said, “... thats a big fucking download right there.“



jamwerks said:


> More conspiracy theories...


----------



## jononotbono (Feb 28, 2018)

Tekkera said:


> Because 8dio shills their products way too hard. I remember there was some thread where a new account made a post about the 66 Basses as it had just come out. And also a similar reddit account posting at similar times shilling on a couple subs about the 66 Basses as well.
> 
> These weren't posts for like paid advertising forums, they were in a couple music related subs, and sample talk. Not even in the advertising section. Someone masquerading as a reuglar user even though it was clear it was someone internally.
> 
> I'm probably witch hunting, but that is just not right.



I'm talking about the actual products, what creativity they will bring to the table, how they sound. 8Dio shouldn't be ridiculed for wanting to create something different. Regardless of whether people like or dislike the sound of it. And, I couldn't care less about "shilling" and what not. It has nothing to do with anything (in this conversation). 

I do wonder if the new sampler is based off HZ's SAM in anyway? Someone spill some gossip...


----------



## jononotbono (Feb 28, 2018)

enyawg said:


> Not at all, I’m probably one of their biggest clients, but they do have a lot of samples to access in their “Lolly shop” & as DJ said, “... thats a big fucking download right there.“



I wear tin foil hats when I wait for my Spitfire libraries to download. The HZ Piano is a big download. Haha!


----------



## Tekkera (Feb 28, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> I'm talking about the actual products, what creativity they will bring to the table, how they sound. 8Dio shouldn't be ridiculed for wanting to create something different. Regardless of whether people like or dislike the sound of it. And, I couldn't care less about "shilling" and what not. It has nothing to do with anything (in this conversation).
> 
> I do wonder if the new sampler is based off HZ's SAM in anyway? Someone spill some gossip...


Some of their stuff looks great, like their pianos and new brass. But none of the other stuff grabs my interest because unfortunately I can't really get something just to expand my palette as I'm not made of money


----------



## jononotbono (Feb 28, 2018)

Tekkera said:


> Some of their stuff looks great, like their pianos and new brass. But none of the other stuff grabs my interest because unfortunately I can't really get something just to expand my palette as I'm not made of money



Man that's fair enough. Neither am I.


----------



## procreative (Feb 28, 2018)

One thing that this library wont really do is give you the reality of a 60 piece section playing vigorous rhythmic passages, unless they happen to be playing to a click track in perfect time.

OT kind of addressed this in MA3, but to me what makes a big section sound big are those slight timing delays playing fast lines where the notes get a bit blurry... darr a da darr a da darr (kind of).

So with static arts like some of those here it runs the risk of sounding like a strings synth patch as the unison effect so thick and neat its like quad tracking a vocal where the vocalist has perfect pitch and timing and it starts to almost phase.

I am sure on lead lines having 60 players could sound nice, but I wonder in reality how much it adds vs doubling say Violins 1+2 with Horns?


----------



## VinRice (Feb 28, 2018)

enyawg said:


> Regarding the imminent HZS library release with it’s enormous 195,804 samples, it appears they contain many similar articulations as the core ones in SSS and SCS or like various Albion’s and EVO’s arts.
> 
> Did SA really record all these new samples in Air Studios recently for HZS or is there a chance some could be re-hashed/ processed/ blended samples from current SA libraries that we already may own?
> 
> We would’t really know would we?... it’s just a thought as some of you guys have mentioned similarities.



Don't be daft...


----------



## Raphioli (Feb 28, 2018)

I have the same concerns as Daniel James.
I've watched the walkthrough and while I really liked how the legato cellos sound, but CPU usage concerns me.
(on a positive side, they showed us the GUI while playing live, which means they're sort of transparent on the efficiency(?) side of things)
I can see a HZ Brass maybe being released in the future, which makes me wonder if we're going back to the "multiple slave PC" days.

One thing they could do is, release a bespoke player version of the SSO series for free to existing users and let us test the new player before we make our purchases. Then users can just load up their existing project using the new player and do a comparison to see if the performance is around the same or not. If the results are positive, then the negativity with their bespoke player will just go away.



Daniel James said:


> But the engine would have to be a 'PLAY v6' not a 'PLAY v1' for it to be worth while.


I strongly agree with this. I don't want to make the same mistake I made with Play.
But if the performance is the same or superior to Kontakt, I actually don't mind trying out a new player.
And even look forward to bespoke player versions of their existing libraries.
I do love learning new things. (only if theres a benefit performance wise of course)


----------



## VinRice (Feb 28, 2018)

Things I learned:

a) I know nothing - he announcement of the library and new player was a complete surprise, I did wonder why the LCO played a Zimmer 'tune' at the intro - I sniggered, sorry.
b) Christian is definitely back on the beer. I would have loved to have stayed but London was looking like Saskatoon in January and I just got a train before they shut the route down
c) The library sounds amaze-balls. The Cello Shorts through the PA system nearly knocked me over
d) The free Labs are also in the new engine
e) It's not the same people as did the Phobos engine (yay)
f) Air Lyndhurst is a very nice studio (nice cafe)
g) Don't stand next to a Horn section 
h) The balcony at Air is unbelievably reverberant with a huge resonance at 200-300Hz
i) Canapé do not make a meal, no matter how many of the tiny little things you eat
j) Hans had a lot of input. They were shipping SSD's to him over in LA. Even asked for recalls at one point
k) Spitfire have nice staff


----------



## VinRice (Feb 28, 2018)

and...
l) 1% of Spitfire Gross Profit to charity.


----------



## VinRice (Feb 28, 2018)

m) Multitimbral no, keyswitches yes


----------



## WindcryMusic (Feb 28, 2018)

rottoy said:


> It's interesting how this release is met with accolades, while 8Dios 66 Basses is met with ridicule.
> The Zimmer name has the Midas touch.



I'm a fan of HZ, and I very much like HZPP along with the array of Spitfire libraries I already own, but actually when I saw this announcement, after rolling my eyes a bit at the 8dio 66 Basses library, my first thought about the section sizes was "et tu, Spitfire?" But I had decided not to get involved in this discussion until now, because the fact that this doesn't seem to be something that would benefit me doesn't mean someone else might not.

I also share the concerns about the proprietary engine, although that has a lot to do with my computer having limitations that I depend upon Kontakt-specific features to work around (MT, sample purging). I suspect HZS might well kill my DAW deader than dead, so it is just as well that I also can't justify it financially or in terms of my musical requirements.

Lately it has started to feel like all of these companies are leaving behind my segment of the market in so many ways (proprietary engines, astronomical computer requirements, subscription plans, iLoks, etc). Thank goodness I'm quite happy with the libraries and plugins I already have, because I'm starting to think I'll be relying upon them for many years to come.


----------



## gsilbers (Feb 28, 2018)

play and others like g player where made a long time ago and had a lot of kinks, specially w that 32 bit to 64 bit transition . i think newer coding tricks and apps could prolly do some nice playback/streamlines plabacks. maybe using JUCE or something. even kontakt had issues back in the day. and hans has been doing his own custom software since 2004 that i can remember, and somewhere along that time he mentioned he didnt like kontakt, but i think it was one of those 32 bit days. so im guessing one of his teckies who scipted his oldsampler software made it somewhere techy and made this? or knew of a company that could easily make it and pay attention to the streaming issues that plague play and others a while ago. 

then again, having to load separate instances for each patch is a little cumbersome. but ill wait till users with different rigs can comment about playback. im guessing there will be updates soon as well.


----------



## Daniel James (Feb 28, 2018)

VinRice said:


> m) Multitimbral no, keyswitches yes



Yeah I caught the Keyswitches in the manual, forgot to update my post on that. Have you found anything yet that couldn't have been done in Kontakt?

Also do we know who developed the actual engine? I know they are promoting the guys who did the UI design but they seem to be talking about the graphic design and layout, not the actual coding underneath. I assumed it would be the same as the Phobos team. In which case I hope they apply what they learned.

-DJ


----------



## givemenoughrope (Feb 28, 2018)

gsilbers said:


> even kontakt had issues back in the day. and hans has been doing his own custom software since 2004 that i can remember, and somewhere along that time he mentioned he didnt like kontakt, but i think it was one of those 32 bit days.


I think he didn't like Kontakt bc of the actual sound of it. I remember him (or someone) writing how much better EWQLSO sounded in PLAY than in Kontakt. When I got the PLAY version of that library I a/b'ed and couldn't believe it...I guess there was limiting going on with the re-release....but I always noticed things playing back louder and clearer in EXS than Kontakt also. I dont really think about it anymore. I bet NI is bummed about this though. The biggest sample library developer makes something called "Hans Zimmer Strings" with all the bells and whistles and they DON'T use Kontakt. Ha..


----------



## Daniel James (Feb 28, 2018)

gsilbers said:


> then again, having to load separate instances for each patch is a little cumbersome



This was one of my first thoughts too. No doubt multitimbral support can be added, but if it isnt there at launch thats a negative compared to Kontakt. I get the feeling there will be a few things here or there we take for granted that we will be like "oh fuck it doesnt do that?" like when Phobos couldnt 'Next' through presets. Things you wouldnt even think about!

-DJ


----------



## muziksculp (Feb 28, 2018)

Kontakt 5 was released August 2nd, 2011. 

https://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/native-instruments-announces-kontakt-5-485525

Yes, 2011 

It's 2018. and we are still using using Kontat 5 , well.. with some increments now.. 5.7.3 

Kontakt 6 would be interesting if they ever release it. But, even from a development perspective, NI has been super slow with moving a major step forward with Kontakt.


----------



## rlw (Feb 28, 2018)

muziksculp said:


> I know you are a Kontakt fan. But, it's not the best sounding sampler engine. I know you will disagree. But that's my position/opinion.


I agree with you muziksculp, I listen to the walk through carefully a number of times, and I believe the new engine gives a sound with far more depth than I have ever heard from kontakt. Also, HZ has had a team of in house developers for years that built his own tools and sampler mods. Its quite possible that Spitfire drew from HZ's experience in the development of their new sound engine. While I know its risky, I am going to jump on this new library, and yes, BT Phobos still has issues that need to be resolved. I am not using it as I had liked, but some of the sounds in the HZ Strings walk through really drew me in. I just hope that I don't need some of the out board gear they showed in that video to get that quality of sound.


----------



## aaronventure (Feb 28, 2018)

rlw said:


> I listen to the walk through carefully a number of times, and I believe the new engine gives a sound with far more depth than I have ever heard from kontakt.



While playing samples in Kontakt in your own DAW, you're listening to 24bit WAV in 48KHz, and while watching YouTube you're listening to (at best) compressed 192kbps MP3, probably even worse. Also, ED posted above that there are no sonic differences between Kontakt and other players.

Come on, dude...


----------



## star.keys (Feb 28, 2018)

If a developer is ambitious and decides to develop their own sample player, rather than relying upon 3rd party plater with little flexibility and control, that's absolutely fine (and it is their decision).

Personally I'd like put money on a product after is proven by good number of end users.


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## rlw (Feb 28, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Yep!
> 
> Math is the only truth in this world.



While I have great respect for your opinion, we also go to great lengths to recreate specific analog components in our search for those special "imperfections" that bring the Xfactor back into our perfect math sound.


----------



## NoamL (Feb 28, 2018)

muziksculp said:


> Kontakt 5 was released August 2nd, 2011.
> 
> https://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/native-instruments-announces-kontakt-5-485525
> 
> ...



What IS the next step?


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## Daniel James (Feb 28, 2018)

star.keys said:


> If a developer is ambitious and decides to develop their own sample player, rather than relying upon 3rd party plater with little flexibility and control, that's absolutely fine (and it is their decision).
> 
> Personally I'd like put money on a product after is proven by good number of end users.



I don't think anyone is really faulting them for trying. More leaning towards the expectation it wont have as many features as you would with a Kontakt version (like Kontakt build in FX and background loading etc) but its still going to be a full price release.

It costs more than most of the competition in the same field, and *if* the engine doesnt run as well as Kontakt you are essentially paying more for a worse experience.

To me its risky as fuck. Again not faulting them, they are a business and they need to make money where they can and taking risks is part of that. Just concerned is all.

If the engine has more features, is more stable, streams audio better and is in general a better user experience then obviously we will all be on board. But its a tall order and it already appears we dont get multi timbral support.

-DJ


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## NoamL (Feb 28, 2018)

rlw said:


> While I have great respect for your opinion, we also go to great lengths to recreate specific analog components in our search for those special "imperfections" that bring the Xfactor back into our perfect math sound.



You're right. But what I think he was saying is that digital music _is_ numbers. If two pieces of audio are the same set of numbers (which they are if they null each other) then they necessarily will create the same sound. Only placebo effect can convince us otherwise.

I don't guess that SF is going to a new sampler for technological reasons, I think they are doing it to fight piracy (good for users), stop paying license fees to NI (good for users), and eventually possibly create a subscription system or always-online DRM (not good).


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## Daniel James (Feb 28, 2018)

Also while we are down here in the thread I want to remind people that voicing my concerns doesn't mean I hate Spitfire, or Hans or anything in-between. I want them to succeed.

But I think if we can articulate clearly what we as consumers want from an engine and they see that (even begrudgingly) they may one day include it. Which makes things better for everyone. They have a more solid product, we have a better experience. Everyone wins.

We don't have to form camps, or start fighting. Not that its happened yet, but I have been in enough SF threads to know how things can go xD

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Feb 28, 2018)

NoamL said:


> You're right. But what I think he was saying is that digital music _is_ numbers. If two pieces of audio are the same set of numbers (which they are if they null each other) then they necessarily will create the same sound. Only placebo effect can convince us otherwise.
> 
> I don't guess that SF is going to a new sampler for technological reasons, I think they are doing it to fight piracy (good for users), stop paying license fees to NI (good for users), and eventually possibly create a subscription system or always-online DRM (not good).



What is the security? Is it dongle based? because if not, once some dastardly pirate gets around the DRM it will mean Spitfire will have to join the never ending cycle of patching its own security.

-DJ


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## InLight-Tone (Feb 28, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> This was one of my first thoughts too. No doubt multitimbral support can be added, but if it isnt there at launch thats a negative compared to Kontakt. I get the feeling there will be a few things here or there we take for granted that we will be like "oh fuck it doesnt do that?" like when Phobos couldnt 'Next' through presets. Things you wouldnt even think about!
> 
> -DJ


Separate instrument tracks is where it's at DJ, far more simple in terms of setup and outputs. 1 instrument per track and no additional routing and finagling. Multi-timbral is a relic of the past midi limitations and a reflection of how hardware midi boxes worked. Why have multiple tracks when you can have one? I know it's probably a workflow issue for you and hey who am I to argue as your success speaks for itself. Multi-timbral on bro!


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## Kent (Feb 28, 2018)

muziksculp said:


> Kontakt 5 was released August 2nd, 2011.
> 
> https://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/native-instruments-announces-kontakt-5-485525
> 
> ...



Aren’t we still on MIDI 1.0? I’m not sure if version numbers truly matter...


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## muziksculp (Feb 28, 2018)

NoamL said:


> What IS the next step?



Ask Native Instruments.


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## muziksculp (Feb 28, 2018)

kmaster said:


> Aren’t we still on MIDI 1.0? I’m not sure if version numbers truly matter...



That's a very vague comparison. Plus....MIDI is not an application, imho. it's not a valid comparison.


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## MPortmann (Feb 28, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> When they are asking for $800 of course the bar of expectation is high haha
> 
> -DJ


True that. 60 vlns, 60 cellos, 24 basses sounds worthy of the $$$ and


Daniel James said:


> When they are asking for $800 of course the bar of expectation is high haha
> 
> -DJ



True that. If this sounds even close to HZ private strings libraries, should be worthy of $800!


Daniel James said:


> When they are asking for $800 of course the bar of expectation is high haha
> 
> -DJ



I'd think I'd almost pay that price alone for the 60 celli back of the bow Col Legno Trattos


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## zvenx (Feb 28, 2018)

Maxime Luft said:


> haha please show me that one clip or article where Hans says "Actually, I don't like the sound of Kontakt"
> 
> Next time you could attach this music to your message and I won't ask any questions but beLIEve what you say





Its been a few years. but I will look for it. I think he also had comments on Logic's sound too ...... he is often on here maybe he will see and comment.

This is not the one I was thinking about but this is one of his comments:

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/play-4-this-month-or-not-in-fact.27078/page-11#post-3647088


and maybe related to this topic on the whole:
https://vi-control.net/community/th...performer-patch-structure.36035/#post-3760286

rsp


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## AllanH (Feb 28, 2018)

I can understand why Spitfire doesn't want to bet their business on Native Instruments. NI just took a large venture investment 6 months ago (~ 60M US), so who knows what the future holds for NI and Kontakt. If you have the skills and funds to create your own engine, and have hopes to grow the business, that only makes sense.


----------



## erica-grace (Feb 28, 2018)

zvenx said:


> Its been a few years. but I will look for it. I think he also had comments on Logic's sound too ...... he is often on here maybe he will see and comment.



That's just marketing. He got paid to say that.

Look at what else he says:

_Part of why I like Cubase is that I don’t sound like everybody else._

Right. Because nobody else uses Cubase, so nobody else is going to sound like him.


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## zvenx (Feb 28, 2018)

erica-grace said:


> That's just marketing. He got paid to say that.
> 
> Look at what else he says:
> 
> ...




you only part quoted him.

"Part of why I like Cubase is that I don’t sound like everybody else. I mean we never use library sounds. You don’t really want to hear a sound you have in your 160-million-dollar movie in somebody else’s movie in the theater next door so everything we use is made from scratch"

I think he was referring to Logic's library sounds.

Anyway the Logic thing, which yes I brought up in passing, is not part of the debate here, sorry for that.
rsp


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## novaburst (Feb 28, 2018)

Big Developer, Big move, Big library BIg walkthrough coming up @Daniel James , some Big names behind this and i guess a Big future,

Think it's always nice to have a mixture and different flavours in this world this is very healthy to the sample world.

I also think this will bring SF more status and prestige.

Inspires other to do better.

One thing we have not determined is is there going to be a dongle involved as this will be the only way to do this really.

Got to have multi timbral and start working on very low power consumption, VSL has this down like no other but this is a must.

Love what HZ is doing very committed to the sample world and offering us some great products this guy a true developer,
Understands what this world need,

My thoughts i how this does well.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 28, 2018)

InLight-Tone said:


> Why have multiple tracks when you can have one?



It's a trade off between RAM and CPU. Multitimbral instances use less RAM because for each additional instance of a plugin it takes additional RAM just for existence of it, before you load a single sample. Also in individual instances you cannot share samples if it happens that some patches share references to same samples.

OTOH having a single instance per sound means that DAW can likely spread them over cores nore easily. However Kontakt also has its own multiprocessing that is employed PER VOICE, rather than per instrument...


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## Saxer (Feb 28, 2018)

Speculation:

Isn't it possible the new sample player contains code or concept or at least knowledge from the sampler engine they use at Remote Control? That's obviously a reliable running engine...
The HZ strings sound like a "nice to have" library for Hans himself too (including his special balcony positioning). I know they build their own libraries but having a 300+ orchestra for sampling isn't a project you realize spontaneously over a weekend. It's easier done as a collaboration with a secure rate of return when published. So I think that library should at least be Remote compatible.


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## muziksculp (Feb 28, 2018)

Does the new Spitfire Audio Sample Player have a name ?


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## zeng (Feb 28, 2018)

We are also talking about 8dio's 66 Basses in this topic but what about 8dio's 8W vs HZS? I have 8W and played legato patch now. It sounds very similar with HZS legato in the demo?


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## mac (Mar 1, 2018)

Might be a stupid question, but will this be NKS compatible? I don't see a reason for it not to be tbh. I need my beloved NKS lights...


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## babylonwaves (Mar 1, 2018)

rlw said:


> I agree with you muziksculp, I listen to the walk through carefully a number of times, and I believe the new engine gives a sound with far more depth than I have ever heard from kontakt.


how can you hear that without hearing the same samples played back from a different engine (such as kontakt) for comparison? just think a little about what you just wrote


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## meradium (Mar 1, 2018)

Guys, just wondering... Can we really be sure it is not a Kontakt-engine with nice shiny clothing on? The overemphasis on GUI makes me wonder whether there is actually any real difference except maybe that is was the only way to get around Kontakt current GUI limitations... 

Kontakt badly needs an overhaul when it comes to usability. Setting up a new template with lots of Kontakt instances is a nightmare - just wen through it again.

For starters:

Why do DAWs or VEP have to save the whole patches (x100 MBs) with the project files rather than just the setup description which can be loaded when needed?
Why is there no option to load all tracks purged (except for the main configuration)?
Why can't I purge all instruments on demand (i.e. via MIDI signal)
Why does the GUI consume so much RAM (bitmaps) while it is most often only needed during initial setup - load it when required, get rid of it when not?
Why do I have to run a "Batch resave" to get best performance if the software could in theory rely on the relative paths from the initial instrument file...
...


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## JanR (Mar 1, 2018)

I just hope that this is the first step for Spitfire to be able to have a subscription model in the future.

I bet their Upcoming Choir library and all new libraries will be on their new engine, and old libraries will be gradually ported.


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## meradium (Mar 1, 2018)

Oh please, no subscription model (or if so only for those who want!)

Just look at the Adobe disaster. It forced me to switch all my design software to other vendors...



JanR said:


> I just hope that this is the first step for Spitfire to be able to have a subscription model in the future.
> 
> I bet their Upcoming Choir library and all new libraries will be on their new engine, and old libraries will be gradually ported.


----------



## fiestared (Mar 1, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> I don't think anyone is really faulting them for trying. More leaning towards the expectation it wont have as many features as you would with a Kontakt version (like Kontakt build in FX and background loading etc) but its still going to be a full price release.
> 
> It costs more than most of the competition in the same field, and *if* the engine doesnt run as well as Kontakt you are essentially paying more for a worse experience.
> 
> ...



Why did I buy my house ? same reasons for Spitfire Audio they're "the Masters of their Domain" 


----Edited with new link---


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## JanR (Mar 1, 2018)

meradium said:


> Oh please, no subscription model (or if so only for those who want!)



Yeah I’d love to have both options too, which would be the smart move. I’m not a subscription kind of guy, I like to buy everything, but in case of Spitfire I’d make an exception, since they release so many awesome libraries at a rate my bank account cannot keep up with XD


----------



## fiestared (Mar 1, 2018)

fiestared said:


> Why did I buy my house ? same reasons for Spitfire Audio they're "the Masters of their Domain"
> 
> 
> ----Edited with new link---



Bravo Spitfire Audio, I BET on this HZ Strings, and I'll buy it ASAP, this is the FUTUR...


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## Lionel Schmitt (Mar 1, 2018)

meradium said:


> Oh please, no subscription model (or if so only for those who want!)
> 
> Just look at the Adobe disaster. It forced me to switch all my design software to other vendors...


Of course it should only for those who want - see EastWest or Slate. I don't hope they would consider removing normal buy possibility... that would also cost them buyers I'd say.


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## Vischebaste (Mar 1, 2018)

muziksculp said:


> Does the new Spitfire Audio Sample Player have a name ?



Yes, "Uncle David".


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## JanR (Mar 1, 2018)

muziksculp said:


> Does the new Spitfire Audio Sample Player have a name ?


They should call it “Browning Mkll” after the machine guns fitted on the Spitfire planes


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## Anders Wall (Mar 1, 2018)

VinRice said:


> f) Air Lyndhurst is a very nice studio (nice cafe)


Jupp, had the cafe been bad no one would have recorded there 
It's all about the coffee and cookies.
/Anders

PS It's funny because it's true.


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## blougui (Mar 1, 2018)

enyawg said:


> Regarding the imminent HZS library release with it’s enormous 195,804 samples, it appears they contain many similar articulations as the core ones in SSS and SCS or like various Albion’s and EVO’s arts.
> 
> Did SA really record all these new samples in Air Studios recently for HZS or is there a chance some could be re-hashed/ processed/ blended samples from current SA libraries that we already may own?
> 
> We would’t really know would we?... it’s just a thought as some of you guys have mentioned similarities.


It’s been answered in the relevant thread. No « tape recording » has been used in HZ strings, as the difference of regular Air/Spitfire offerings, to begin with.
I cannot see any reason they’ld lie about it - too risky. And it doesn’t sound samey - I own SSS, SCS... 
Sharing some arts in common ? Well, it’s a string library and second, why not re-recording the ones that stood out in SSS and people+composers at SA liked and used ?


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 1, 2018)

JanR said:


> Yeah I’d love to have both options too, which would be the smart move. I’m not a subscription kind of guy, I like to buy everything, but in case of Spitfire I’d make an exception, since they release so many awesome libraries at a rate my bank account cannot keep up with XD


Can't see Spitfire going with a subscription model just yet.

But I wouldn't listen to me: Only last week I posted a detailed diatribe on why Spitfire would never make their own player. Back in the day, I also argued that "MP3 will never take off."
So from this point onwards, best take everything I say with a grain of salt.


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## AdamAlake (Mar 1, 2018)

With Spitfire's 400 kbps download speed, 500 GB must be a treat.


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## prodigalson (Mar 1, 2018)

AdamAlake said:


> With Spitfire's 400 kbps download speed, 500 GB must be a treat.



Thats ridiculous. i've downloaded several libraries from them at much much faster speeds than that. So many variables can affect download speeds that I don't think it's fair to blame spitfire.


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## Brian Nowak (Mar 1, 2018)

On one hand, I want to believe a large successful company like Spitfire wouldn't make this move unless they were prepared, had a great stable engine, and had tested it to insure it worked smoothly.

On the other hand, the law of the land these days seems to be releasing libraries littered with oddities and problems (missing samples, bird sounds, coughs, squeaks, GUI problems, GUI functionality problems, etc) - so I'm interested to see what happens.

I realize a HUGE amount of work goes into these things and everybody is trying to stay ahead of the funding/cashflow/income game. But any more it's like "Hey save a couple hundred bucks and get in early, my friends... oh by the way it's not actually finished LOOOOOL".


----------



## aelwyn (Mar 1, 2018)

mac said:


> Might be a stupid question, but will this be NKS compatible? I don't see a reason for it not to be tbh. I need my beloved NKS lights...



Don't quote me, but my guess is it will *not *be NKS compatible. The NKS standard is owned by Native Instruments, so it's probably specific to Kontakt. Plus, the HZS manual has no mention of NKS.

That's slightly disappointing, but this library was a hard pass for me anyway.


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## VinRice (Mar 1, 2018)

rottoy said:


> It's interesting how this release is met with accolades, while 8Dios 66 Basses is met with ridicule.
> The Zimmer name has the Midas touch.



Except 66 Basses IS ridiculous, which I presume is why there are 24 in HZS...


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## ghandizilla (Mar 1, 2018)

I wonder if functionalities such as "speed-switching" or "close and spot mics stereo width control" also exist in Kontakt. Speed-switching may carry great potentiality for custom performance patches, doesn't it? It isn't morph stacking either. Just curious.


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## mac (Mar 1, 2018)

aelwyn said:


> Don't quote me, but my guess is it will *not *be NKS compatible. The NKS standard is owned by Native Instruments, so it's probably specific to Kontakt. Plus, the HZS manual has no mention of NKS.
> 
> That's slightly disappointing, but this library was a hard pass for me anyway.



Any synth can be NKS compatible as far as I know - Arturia and some U-he synths are, for example.


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## nas (Mar 1, 2018)

Personally I find having to learn another UI/Player is a bit of a hassle, and frankly I have yet to see another player that is significantly better than Kontakt. Like it or not, the vast majority of (_my)_ libraries are in Kontakt so I've gotten it into my workflow. I want technology to get out of my way and having to learn new UI's without a significant advantage is just an added burden.

As always YMMV.


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## catsass (Mar 1, 2018)

muziksculp said:


> Does the new Spitfire Audio Sample Player have a name ?


Taktkon


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## quantum7 (Mar 1, 2018)

Yikes! I didn’t realize that it was $600. Man, I’m going to have to read many rave reviews before taking the plunge on a new sample engine (the strings themselves sound nice though). Like I previously mentioned, I spent over $2k on Play libraries that I stopped using years ago due to to Play causing me such frustration. This is also why I will hope against hope that SF eventually has a demo that they will let us try first.


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## Mornats (Mar 1, 2018)

I think putting the new Labs content into the new engine is a great move. This will get their new engine in front of a great many users and that should help iron out any niggles that are always found after a product is released (regardless of the amount of testing you do). That's quite a savvy move in my opinion.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 1, 2018)

I am on record repeatedly saying that the more thriving engines the better. Not a knock on Kontakt, but Gigastudio should have taught us all what can happen when only 1 engine is widely used. 

So kudos to them for doing this. It makes me MORE likely to get it, not less.


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## blougui (Mar 1, 2018)

You've got a very valid point here, Jay. Not that I've ever had the chance to use Gigastudio. But yes, one main actor is risky. Thing is, will the player be customizable ? Like Falcon for the UVI player 
The more the better - we all regret Play not going the Play PRO road...


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## Daniel James (Mar 1, 2018)

JanR said:


> They should call it “Browning Mkll” after the machine guns fitted on the Spitfire planes



I think the less references to the war the better tbh.

-DJ


----------



## blougui (Mar 1, 2018)

quantum7 said:


> Yikes! I didn’t realize that it was $600. Man, I’m going to have to read many rave reviews before taking the plunge on a new sample engine (the strings themselves sound nice though). Like I previously mentioned, I spent over $2k on Play libraries that I stopped using years ago due to to Play causing me such frustration. This is also why I will hope against hope that SF eventually has a demo that they will let us try first.


Sean, you have enough strings, with all these wonderful :emoji_musical_keyboard: you recently collected 
Or, say, I grab HZS and swap it for your Modal 008 at some point ?


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## Daniel James (Mar 1, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> I am on record repeatedly saying that the more thriving engines the better. Not a knock on Kontakt, but Gigastudio should have taught us all what can happen when only 1 engine is widely used.
> 
> So kudos to them for doing this. It makes me MORE likely to get it, not less.



I am all down for new engines. But a bespoke engine isn't really a threat to Kontakt, its just a lost partner...of which they still have *many*. For NI to feel like they need to improve more would be if developers were migrating to a competitor like UVI Falcon. 

If the engine is solid I am down to use it. Just erring on the side of caution.

-DJ


----------



## Michael Antrum (Mar 1, 2018)

Frankly, NI need a bit of a kick in the pants - they seem to have become complacent.

The ridiculous situation where you have to re-download all your NI libraries again if you have to re-install your software or move to a new computer has been known for months and nothing has been done.

I recently moved to a new windows laptop, and the installer can't even install products on Windows 10 by itself, and had to do them one by one manually. 

Simple workflow stuff like being able to group collections of libraries to make the library window manageable can't be that much of a programming mega job.

Some of their latest updates seem to have made things more awkward rather than better.

I am happy to see Spitfire's new engine - and trialing it through labs instruments is an inspired idea. I wish them all the best with it.


----------



## AlexRuger (Mar 1, 2018)

mikeybabes said:


> Frankly, NI need a bit of a kick in the pants - they seem to have become complacent.
> 
> The ridiculous situation where you have to re-download all your NI libraries again if you have to re-install your software or move to a new computer has been known for months and nothing has been done.
> 
> ...



I agree. NI has done nothing but piss me off more and more over the past couple years. Kontakt is an absolute pain in the ass to develop sample libraries in -- its workflow is some of the clunkiest, least thought out I've ever seen in any music software, and that's saying something -- and being able to group libraries like you say should take a mediocre programmer a couple days at most, assuming their code base isn't a jumble of spaghetti. 

I'm very happy to see such a prominent library developer challenge them, even if it's just symbolic.


----------



## jamwerks (Mar 1, 2018)

It's always possible that this non-name sampler will be so good that they will eventually license it to other devs


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## thesteelydane (Mar 1, 2018)

mikeybabes said:


> Frankly, NI need a bit of a kick in the pants - they seem to have become complacent.
> 
> The ridiculous situation where you have to re-download all your NI libraries again if you have to re-install your software or move to a new computer has been known for months and nothing has been done.
> 
> ...



I did the same recently, and found there is a fix for that by temporarily downgrading to Kontakt 5.6.6, adding all your NI libraries, upgrade back up to the newest Kontakt, open Native Access and it automatically authorizes all your NI libraries. A pain in the ass, and it shouldn’t be necessary but it only takes 10 minutes and that’s a lot better than having to re-download everything. I’m on a Mac though.

Now about the new SF engine, I don’t think its a bad thing to give Kontakt some competition, but the one thing Kontakt has going for it is years and years of refinement and bug fixes, and a scripting language that lets devs do amazing things - and at the end of the day, isn’t that what we all want: Effeciency, stability, capability and Kontakt has all that. I’m slightly worried, but will withhold judgement til we see how it works. 

One essential feature that I cant find anything in manual about is the ability to purge samples, and load the ones you need in on the fly. I do hope they will add this, for those of us on resource challenged systems, that’s a pretty essential thing.


----------



## JohnG (Mar 1, 2018)

It's a risk to buy a new player, I guess, but I assume part of the motivation is sound and part may be security. Kontakt libraries have hacked versions all over the internet. 

I haven't seen PLAY libraries hacked and they have a proprietary player. Some people complained about PLAY but I've had just as many problems with Kontakt as PLAY over the years. Our job is difficult; it's not the tools that hold me back.

Already have so many string libraries it seems crazy to buy another one, but whatever.


----------



## benmrx (Mar 1, 2018)

I don't know...., for me, one the main benefits of Kontakt is that it is so widely used. IMO, standards are a good thing. In my eyes, it's similar to the use of Pro Tools for audio post. One of the biggest things that makes PT so great for post, is that it's what nearly everyone uses. That in itself is a feature you simply can't implement from a developers stance. And it's a feature that's arguably the most important. 

I'm personally not looking forward to a day when all these developers have their own playback engines. The idea of making sure that your Spitfire player, OT player, Sonokinetic player, Project Sam player, etc. are all up to date, and all working well with each other seems to just add more variables. The fact that (they're currently) all under the Kontakt umbrella makes it more streamlined, and universal. Unless there were some truly groundbreaking new features, then it's a different story. 

I'm in the camp of thinking that this is a pretty ballsy move by Spitfire. I can't imagine it was cheap to go the route of a bespoke player, and I can't imagine them crawling back to Kontakt (for this new HZS library) if things don't go smoothly. I can only speak for myself, but I would absolutely wait until this has been out in the wild and truly field tested before even thinking about making a purchase.


----------



## Michael Antrum (Mar 1, 2018)

thesteelydane said:


> I did the same recently, and found there is a fix for that by temporarily downgrading to Kontakt 5.6.6, adding all your NI libraries, upgrade back up to the newest Kontakt, open Native Access and it automatically authorizes all your NI libraries. A pain in the ass, and it shouldn’t be necessary but it only takes 10 minutes and that’s a lot better than having to re-download everything. I’m on a Mac though.



That doesn't work with newer libraries (such as the NI Symphony Series) as they require 5.7 or just crash the program. (I'm on a Mac too).


----------



## Daniel James (Mar 1, 2018)

JohnG said:


> It's a risk to buy a new player, I guess, but I assume part of the motivation is sound and part may be security. Kontakt libraries have hacked versions all over the internet.
> 
> I haven't seen PLAY libraries hacked and they have a proprietary player. Some people complained about PLAY but I've had just as many problems with Kontakt as PLAY over the years. Our job is difficult; it's not the tools that hold me back.
> 
> Already have so many string libraries it seems crazy to buy another one, but whatever.



Heh I forgot because my dongles are always in....isnt PLAY a dongle protected engine? They seem to be the only thing that pirates struggle to hack. VST's however seem to be a matter of weeks or days in most cases unfortunately.

-DJ


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## ironbut (Mar 1, 2018)

If this is a ground up sampler (and not just an existing one with some lipstick) I would guess that it's something that Spitfire (or someone they contracted) has been working on for a while. 
Maybe the difficulties of the scope of HZ Strings made the introduction a no brainer?
I do wonder why there wasn't more fanfare about it at the Event?

I started out using the VSL engine and now I never use those libraries. Like someone else in this thread mentioned, it's so deep that I have to take time to remember how to use it.
Is it a sampler or a DAW? Probably the ultimate rabbit hole for a sample library developer!
Anyway, I'm glad to see Spitfire doing this and I hope they keep it simple.
It's a natural business decision IMHO and a great luxury for a company to be able to experiment this way.
I believe it's up to us to help guide them in further refinement of the interface (which is a great luxury they seem to have afforded us).


----------



## Daniel James (Mar 1, 2018)

ironbut said:


> I believe it's up to us to help guide them in further refinement of the interface (which is a great luxury they seem to have afforded us).



Exactly this. Thats why we debate it openly like this. Hopefully they take the concerns on board and end up making a better end product. Everyone wins 

-DJ


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## EvilDragon (Mar 1, 2018)

meradium said:


> Why do DAWs or VEP have to save the whole patches (x100 MBs) with the project files rather than just the setup description which can be loaded when needed?



Because this is absolutely not a good idea and not how pretty much any plugin works. They all store their current state chunk in your DAW project. This is the safest way to contain the data so that it doesn't depend on changing drive paths, drives going bad, etc etc etc. Also, let's assume that NKI file changes, in an update or something. Let's say that developer wasn't particularly thoughtful when doing that update, so script variables don't have the same order, and automation parameters don't have the same order as well. ALL your projects linking to this NKI would be messed up then!

This is why NKIs are all stored as plugin state chunk in DAW project file. It's simply the way things are done and a good programming practice (TM).



meradium said:


> Why is there no option to load all tracks purged (except for the main configuration)?



Agreed there. It was available in K3 then was just removed.



meradium said:


> Why can't I purge all instruments on demand (i.e. via MIDI signal)



Because MIDI data can be sent at unknown rates and doing disk access directly on MIDI events is not a good idea, and not a good programming practice. This is why for DFD to work you need to have initial chunks of samples loaded into RAM, since it's the fastest way to access that data (short of CPU cache). Also if you notice, on u-he plugins for example, you CAN change presets via MIDI program change messages, but you need to put them in MIDI Programs folder so that they are preloaded into RAM when instantiating, i.e. Zebra. See the common pattern here? 



meradium said:


> Why does the GUI consume so much RAM (bitmaps) while it is most often only needed during initial setup - load it when required, get rid of it when not?



Because it's bitmaps. Again loading when required and getting rid of it when not would make the Kontakt GUI very slow to respond when you hide/show a Kontakt instance in your DAW. Also GUI is actually not the part which consumes the most RAM in an instrument! Depending on size of the instrument, number of groups and zones in it, number of modulators and effects used, and max polyphony, this can sometimes take more RAM than samples that are loaded itself (good example: OT and Output libraries).

Agreed with you on batch resave. There's a one byte difference in NKC files between PC and Mac and this triggers recreating NKC files on first load of the NKI, which makes the initial load a bit slower.


Does this answer all your questions?  There are all very good programming reasons why things are as they are.


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## storyteller (Mar 1, 2018)

Even if it just lights a fire under NI to grind out the updates that take so long, that's a good thing! Plus, I have to say that the HZ UI does look sleek indeed.


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## mouse (Mar 1, 2018)

I wonder is the Native Instruments announcement about lower fees and an "ecosystem" because of the Spitfire new player? I wonder are they both linked... Spitfire dropped Ni because of high fees and Ni changed their fee structure because they need to make up the massive amount Spitfire were paying them. Seems likely interesting timing for the both to happen at the same time


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## tehreal (Mar 1, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> [...] isnt PLAY a dongle protected engine? [...]



Nope.


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## JohnG (Mar 1, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> isnt PLAY a dongle protected engine? They seem to be the only thing that pirates struggle to hack. VST's however seem to be a matter of weeks or days in most cases unfortunately.



The PLAY libraries are dongle-protected, though I am not sure PLAY itself is; either way I agree with you Daniel that it is shameful how quickly libraries are hacked.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 1, 2018)

mouse said:


> I wonder is the Native Instruments announcement about lower fees and an "ecosystem" because of the Spitfire new player? I wonder are they both linked... Spitfire dropped Ni because of high fees and Ni changed their fee structure because they need to make up the massive amount Spitfire were paying them. Seems likely interesting timing for the both to happen at the same time



Nope.

Also Spitfire didn't drop NI, they will continue making libraries for Kontakt for some more time. Also Spitfire gets enough profit that NI fees aren't a problem for them.


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## Michael Antrum (Mar 1, 2018)

tehreal said:


> Nope.



Play 6 is dongle protected.


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## gsilbers (Mar 1, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> This was one of my first thoughts too. No doubt multitimbral support can be added, but if it isnt there at launch thats a negative compared to Kontakt. I get the feeling there will be a few things here or there we take for granted that we will be like "oh fuck it doesnt do that?" like when Phobos couldnt 'Next' through presets. Things you wouldnt even think about!
> 
> -DJ



ooooohhh the step sequencer/arp that was on their kontakt instruments. i love using that, so much fun. 
yep , another thing. oh well. hopefully itll be added... classic zimmer spiccs!


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## gsilbers (Mar 1, 2018)

another thing to take account is that its 2018. maybe for many it woudnt resonate but remeber the 32 to 64 bit transition.? thats where one of the flaws with play and kontakt happened. other players had issues with proper streaming that woudlnt suck. a lot of the pre conceptions we have about sample players comes from that era. play issues, g player issues, giga issues, etc. etc. thats over a decade ago. We judge tings now based on those past issues and still some issues with play (circa 2005? i believe). I think nowadays it wouldnt be such a hassle to make some nice playback engines that did many of kontakt fucntions or most samplers and still have it be very efficient. its just that sample players is not a very huge market in the software world when you compare industries for a lot of competition so we have been used to kontakt. and we like it and move on.


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## mouse (Mar 1, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Nope.
> 
> Also Spitfire didn't drop NI, they will continue making libraries for Kontakt for some more time. Also Spitfire gets enough profit that NI fees aren't a problem for them.



Stop it with your sense God damn it. We love a good conspiracy theory here!


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## Blakus (Mar 1, 2018)

I'm totally speculating here, but creating a new engine is a *massive* feat. If I were Paul/Christian, I wouldn't be able to shut up about it, I would be talking about its features, its design, its current shortcomings, their plans for its future, the things that make it different etc. However, there's been not a word, apart from focusing on the bitmap files that some company created for the GUI

Again, total speculation, but this would point to one of two things for me.
1. This engine has huge flaws. (Let's not draw attention to it)
2. This engine is not something they created. (Rebadged from somewhere else).

TBH I am cheering Spitfire (and any other devs) on if they are willing to have a stab at creating a new engine. Native Instruments have become so complacent with Kontakt, new legitimate options might be exactly what the market needs to breathe life into it. I'm not sure if this new Spitfire offering is the answer, (and I wish they'd let us have the choice of a kontakt option for HZ Strings), but good on them all the same.


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## jamwerks (Mar 1, 2018)

Yes making their own engin must have been a massive undertaking. Hope the gui is as customisable as their Kontakt gui. Very strange they aren't speaking about it (or given it a name).


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## Ryan (Mar 1, 2018)

Blakus said:


> I'm totally speculating here, but creating a new engine is a *massive* feat. If I were Paul/Christian, I wouldn't be able to shut up about it, I would be talking about its features, its design, its current shortcomings, their plans for its future, the things that make it different etc. However, there's been not a word, apart from focusing on the bitmap files that some company created for the GUI
> 
> Again, total speculation, but this would point to one of two things for me.
> 1. This engine has huge flaws. (Let's not draw attention to it)
> ...



Exactly what I've been thinking. Maybe they have licensed some of the coding used in HZ own sampler?


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## EvilDragon (Mar 1, 2018)

Ryan said:


> Maybe they have licensed some of the coding used in HZ own sampler?



I highly doubt it.


----------



## RiffWraith (Mar 1, 2018)

Kudos to SFA for taking a leap here, and relying on themselves to deliver a product - as opposed to having to rely on someone else. even tho that someone else is stable, and been around for a long time.

I wonder.... and this is purely speculation.... if this is another opportunity for revenue: licensing of the player to other devs. Will be some time, I would imagine, before that happens. But it very well may....

Cheers.


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## synthpunk (Mar 1, 2018)

They may have gotten some tips or guidance from Media Ventures (Mark).

They did mention a firm or technology related to the new engine I thought in the live video. So perhaps they licensed it or hired a firm to design the new engine or interface.

A bit busy right now to check all the pages, Whats the consensus on the new Labs and upcoming Choir being in the new engine ?


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 1, 2018)

synthpunk said:


> They may have gotten some tips or guidance from Media Ventures (Mark).
> 
> They did mention a firm or technology related to the new engine I thought in the live video. So perhaps they licensed it or hired a firm to design the new engine or interface.
> 
> A bit busy right now to check all the pages, Whats the consensus on the new Labs and upcoming Choir being in the new engine ?


Labs is the new engine I believe. Strong money on the choir too.


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## benmrx (Mar 1, 2018)

RiffWraith said:


> I wonder.... and this is purely speculation.... if this is another opportunity for revenue: licensing of the player to other devs. Will be some time, I would imagine, before that happens. But it very well may....
> 
> Cheers.



Possible..., but for that to happen, they're going to need some MAJOR firepower in terms of commercial marketing, GUI customization, scripting customization, etc. I mean...., it's hard to tell because they haven't revealed much in terms of the player, but why would a developer choose this engine over Kontakt...., which already has HUGE market appeal, known stability, people know how to use it, trust it, it's incredibly customizable, etc. If you take a close look at OT's 'Capsule' engine for Kontakt, it's truly amazing what can be done. I.E., allowing the 2D XFade option, using legato transitions for any 'long' articulation, etc. Granted the 'capsule' engine is fairly CPU intensive, but it offers a ton of creative options (more than any other developer IMO), while retaining a pretty streamlined GUI.


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## synthpunk (Mar 1, 2018)

Same guy that developed Phobos I wonder ?


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## jamwerks (Mar 1, 2018)

Asaik every time a programmer talks about Kontakt here, they don't have many nice things to say. It apparently has many shortcomings that maybe SF can overcome in their own.

And if NI can't deliver K6 (7 years and counting) and allow devs to protect their work against copiers and theft, then others will move on also.


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## NoamL (Mar 1, 2018)

Maybe they didn't put the engine front and center because they knew people would immediately think of PLAY. As this thread has demonstrated. If it's a better situation than PLAY, the only thing that can make people really believe that is word of mouth from real users.


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## gpax (Mar 1, 2018)

ThomasNL said:


> It feels like they are very confident with this new engine, so i got my hopes up. oh and someone said on another topic that in a q&a they said:
> *Does this mean you are no longer releasing libraries in Kontakt?*
> No. We will still be making Kontakt libraries.
> 
> Looking forward to your overview


Sorry I redundantly posted this a bit ago (now deleted). But I think it's a point of clarification that is apt to some of the discussion, as it does not yet necessarily presage a commitment to a new engine. Not yet, anyway.


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## BradHoyt (Mar 1, 2018)

JohnG said:


> It's a risk to buy a new player, I guess, but I assume part of the motivation is sound and part may be security. Kontakt libraries have hacked versions all over the internet.
> 
> I haven't seen PLAY libraries hacked and they have a proprietary player. Some people complained about PLAY but I've had just as many problems with Kontakt as PLAY over the years. Our job is difficult; it's not the tools that hold me back.
> 
> Already have so many string libraries it seems crazy to buy another one, but whatever.


Hi JohnG,

I'm an infrequent visitor here, and I was initially thinking the same thing. "Another string library..... " The thing is, after listening to the video walk-through, I can see how they are filling in the gap they have in their product line. HZ Strings gives you these very cool sounding and totally unique articulations that you can only get with a massive section which means there's really no overlap between HZ Strings and their other string libraries. What causes most to pause I think, is that in order to truly know and appreciate the sound of HZ Strings, you kinda have to be a connoisseur....

It reminds of wine tasters, or better yet, my friends who are into acoustic guitars. The slightest difference in the sound of an instrument is an awe inspiring revelation.  Right now, I feel like I'm in that boat a little with string libraries, and more specifically, Spitfire's libraries. I can listen to 60 violins playing the 'Long Col Legno Tratto' articulation in HZ strings all day long.


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## BradHoyt (Mar 1, 2018)

Ryan said:


> Exactly what I've been thinking. Maybe they have licensed some of the coding used in HZ own sampler?


Why not just infer to the best explanation which is - they worked on this project for over 6 years (as Christian said) and during this process, they created a player with the help of design and user experience agency UsTwo. No need to become a conspiracy theorist.


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## quantum7 (Mar 1, 2018)

blougui said:


> Sean, you have enough strings, with all these wonderful :emoji_musical_keyboard: you recently collected
> Or, say, I grab HZS and swap it for your Modal 008 at some point ?



Ha! Tempting....but I'll keep my 008.


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## quantum7 (Mar 1, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> I am on record repeatedly saying that the more thriving engines the better. Not a knock on Kontakt, but Gigastudio should have taught us all what can happen when only 1 engine is widely used.
> 
> So kudos to them for doing this. It makes me MORE likely to get it, not less.



As someone who was miserable when Gigastudio went down, I totally agree with you.


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## constaneum (Mar 1, 2018)

of coz it'll take up years to mature in terms of engine. Play has gotten much better but the latest Play 6 takes up a lot of RAM per plugin. The VST plugin itself already takes 2GB excluding loading of instruments. At least that's what's shown on my DAW on the memory used indicator. 

Likewise, not sure how this new engine will take up. Resource friendly or not? We really dont know. By far, Kontakt is the best in terms of handling memory usage. 

p/s: I think in future all SF products will be switched over to its new engine?


----------



## tehreal (Mar 1, 2018)

mikeybabes said:


> Play 6 is dongle protected.



Sorry I thought he meant physical.


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## Raphioli (Mar 1, 2018)

First of all, I really like what I'm hearing in the demos and the videos.

I like how the gallery mics sound. Legatos really caught my attention too. I like the multiple placements of each section, which already is giving me ideas I want to test out (it wouldn’t be an ordinary way of using a string section of an orchestra, and I'm not sure if it'll even work).

And the number of mics....I know I'm having fun with the amount of mics in HZPercPro, so imaging that with strings....oh my...

But like some other people are saying, I have concerns. Its not about the sound, but about the new player.




NoamL said:


> Maybe they didn't put the engine front and center because they knew people would immediately think of PLAY. As this thread has demonstrated. If it's a better situation than PLAY, the only thing that can make people really believe that is word of mouth from real users.



Thats exactly why they should address these concerns. If their sampler runs efficiently as Kontakt, they should advertise that. Or people will start assuming things like the below.




Blakus said:


> I'm totally speculating here, but creating a new engine is a *massive* feat. If I were Paul/Christian, I wouldn't be able to shut up about it, I would be talking about its features, its design, its current shortcomings, their plans for its future, the things that make it different etc. However, there's been not a word, apart from focusing on the bitmap files that some company created for the GUI
> 
> Again, total speculation, but this would point to one of two things for me.
> 1. This engine has huge flaws. (Let's not draw attention to it)
> 2. This engine is not something they created. (Rebadged from somewhere else).



I have similar worries to what Blakus wrote. I'm concerned about how it would run on my PC.

It would be disappointing to see such a good sounding library end up sitting in my hard drive, just because I find out the sampler is inefficient (power hungry) and it would cause pops and clicks when I use it in my template, *after* I've spent my money on it.



constaneum said:


> of coz it'll take up years to mature in terms of engine



I wouldn’t want to wait letting it sit in my hard drive, until the player gets optimized…


But the good news (?) is, I found the following post made by Spitfire Support.



SpitfireSupport said:


> Great idea but this will take a bit of time to get together a proper response for you



Which was a response to,



Puzzlefactory said:


> Would still like to know how the plugin runs?
> 
> 
> For me it’s a bit of deal breaker as Kontakt is low on cpu and ram, and has fast load speeds.




So I hope Spitfire can address the concerns about the new sampler some people may have before its release. Because if I had to rely on user reviews, the promo price sale will probably be over by then...

For example, I'm interested how efficient the engine would perform when each section plays an individual relatively fast melodic line/counter melodies *all together using the legato patches*. Because with simple sustained pad chords which sometimes changes pitches won't really reveal how far the engine can be pushed before it reaches its limits, IMHO.

I hope that all my worries end up being meaningless and it turns out to be as efficient as, or, even better than Kontakt. Thats what I’m really hoping for.


Apologies for the wall-of-text.


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## germancomponist (Mar 1, 2018)

Kontakt Sampler is a very good tool. Also very good to use as a synth.
But yeah, nothing is set in stone in the digital world!


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## Saxer (Mar 1, 2018)

The synth engine of Kontakt is something an orchestral library player doesn't need. The VSL player is much more efficient than Kontakt with less CPU usage and faster opening GUI. It doesn't have to carry tons of step sequencers, filters, chorusses and bitmaps. Same with the Amplesound plugins for their guitars and basses. They work without problems. SWAM player too. Izotope Iris. Toontracks and FXpansion's drum plugins. Logics EXS. So I'm not afraid of a spitfire player. Maybe a few bugs here and there at the beginning. But that is also part of every big Kontakt library. Will be sorted out faster when library and host sampler come from the same house.


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## muziksculp (Mar 1, 2018)

Hopefully Spitfire Audio will give us more insight into their new Sample Player's features, (in detail), and maybe give it a name, maybe they can't decide on one yet, so we are here to help if that is needed 

I would also like to see an ADSR Envelope to be able to tweak if there is a need to adjust a certain parameter of the Amp Envelope to taste, a velocity curve response parameter is another one, since not all our keyboards behave the same way, as far as their velocity curves, maybe a low-cut filter, coarse/fine tuning, ..etc. so.. mostly basic editing parameters we are used to tweaking in sample based players.


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## robgb (Mar 1, 2018)

I would hope that using their own engine would afford them the opportunity to offer timed demo versions so that we can try before we buy.


----------



## Symfoniq (Mar 1, 2018)

robgb said:


> I would hope that using their own engine would afford them the opportunity to offer timed demo versions so that we can try before we buy.



I think it's a first step toward Spitfire offering subscriptions, and not waiting on Native Instruments to get the technology in place, nor wanting to give Native Instruments a cut.


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## constaneum (Mar 1, 2018)

with own engine, they don't have to pay like what they've paid for NI kontakt player libraries. So i'm guessing future products would be slightly cheaper?


----------



## rlw (Mar 1, 2018)

I am curious if their new engine was more about functionality which supported their sound design versus marketing strategy.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 1, 2018)

Does mean that everything of Spitfire will be ported over to this?


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## IdealSequenceG (Mar 1, 2018)

In order to use the recorded sound source close to 100%, it is necessary to visually confirm the mapped part of each sound source.

Even if the capacity of the library is large, if each source does not use the allocated part properly, it feels a sense of being midish.

That's why I rarely use other sampler than Kontakt.

So I hope to see the mapped source.


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 1, 2018)

Saxer said:


> The synth engine of Kontakt is something an orchestral library player doesn't need. The VSL player is much more efficient than Kontakt with less CPU usage and faster opening GUI. It doesn't have to carry tons of step sequencers, filters, chorusses and bitmaps. Same with the Amplesound plugins for their guitars and basses. They work without problems. SWAM player too. Izotope Iris. Toontracks and FXpansion's drum plugins. Logics EXS. So I'm not afraid of a spitfire player. Maybe a few bugs here and there at the beginning. But that is also part of every big Kontakt library. Will be sorted out faster when library and host sampler come from the same house.



Play engine didn’t work out too well though...


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## TGV (Mar 2, 2018)

Saxer said:


> The synth engine of Kontakt is something an orchestral library player doesn't need. The VSL player is much more efficient than Kontakt with less CPU usage and faster opening GUI. It doesn't have to carry tons of step sequencers, filters, chorusses and bitmaps.


But a sample library does need some of the synth elements: to sculpt the samples, you'll need a bit of an envelope and a filter, and for Spitfire's "Time Machine" patches, you need some resynthesis, and you're going to need EQ and one or two reverbs, and a mixer, and etc.

And having those capabilities doesn't cost a thing. It's just a bit of code that lives somewhere on your hard disk. Kontakt wouldn't be a millisecond faster if you chucked out all the effects or filter options.


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## Saxer (Mar 2, 2018)

I'd say it depends on the library what's needed. No question Kontakt is a great sampler but it's not the only one in the world for all needs. 

At my system (I'm on Mac) opening the Kontakt GUI takes about three seconds. Each time. Switching from one Kontakt to the next... three seconds. In Logic there's a mode where you can open a plugin window and the content changes following the selected track. Great feature as long as I don't use Kontakt because each new track selection takes 3 seconds for Kontakt's GUI to follow. Jumping through tracks per key command goes tap-tap-tap-tap...oh, Kontakt track....wait...wait...wait-tap! Maybe a special AU problem but I'm not unhappy working with other plugins.


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## Rctec (Mar 2, 2018)

erica-grace said:


> That's just marketing. He got paid to say that.
> 
> Look at what else he says:
> 
> ...


You are miss-quoting me. And I’ve never been paid by Steinberg for any marketing. So please be careful with your facts...
Hz


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## muziksculp (Mar 2, 2018)

A bit Off the HZS topic... but kind of related.

Why do you think it is taking NI so long to release Kontakt 6 (given that Kontakt 5 was released back in Aug. 2011) ? Any Speculations/Guesses on this ?


----------



## Ryan (Mar 2, 2018)

BradHoyt said:


> Why not just infer to the best explanation which is - they worked on this project for over 6 years (as Christian said) and during this process, they created a player with the help of design and user experience agency UsTwo. No need to become a conspiracy theorist.


yeahyeah!


----------



## wickedw (Mar 2, 2018)

Rctec said:


> You are miss-quoting me. And I’ve never been paid by Steinberg for any marketing. So please be careful with your facts...
> Hz



I'm sure someone else already posted a more complete answer but this is what Hans really was talking about in regards of the sound quality of cubase:

_"Part of why I like Cubase is that I don’t sound like everybody else. I mean we never use library sounds. You don’t really want to hear a sound you have in your 160-million-dollar movie in somebody else’s movie in the theater next door so everything we use is made from scratch. And so it’s very important to me that the quality of the software ensures that what ever work I put into it, it isn’t going to get colored."_

found the source here: https://www.steinberg.net/en/community/stories/hans_zimmer.html


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## wickedw (Mar 2, 2018)

Back on topic of spitfire "dropping" kontakt:

It's always a risk for a company to try out something new. I can see the benefits of developing an inhouse sampling engine. It could be a purely financial choice but I doubt it. When creating your own software you have the ability to truly tailor it to your vision, both in user experience but even more importantly in function.

Yes a lot of what it does kontakt can probably also do. But they might be able to tailor it so that it's more efficient than kontakt for the stuff they're doing, they might like the sound better than kontakt (even if that's a personal preference in some cases). The scary thing is ofcourse version 1. Let's face facts, nobody gets software right the first time around, it will need iterations, it will need bugfixes. But if they are committed to the product and see it as the future of all future spitfire products then I actually believe that it will be better in the long run.


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## germancomponist (Mar 2, 2018)

Saxer said:


> "The synth engine of Kontakt is something an orchestral library player doesn't need" ... .


Really?
And when you start a little bit sound design with an orchestra sample here and there ....? But sure, then you can use other things, of course.


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## quantum7 (Mar 2, 2018)

wickedw said:


> I'm sure someone else already posted a more complete answer but this is what Hans really was talking about in regards of the sound quality of cubase:
> 
> _"Part of why I like Cubase is that I don’t sound like everybody else. I mean we never use library sounds. You don’t really want to hear a sound you have in your 160-million-dollar movie in somebody else’s movie in the theater next door so everything we use is made from scratch. And so it’s very important to me that the quality of the software ensures that what ever work I put into it, it isn’t going to get colored."_
> 
> found the source here: https://www.steinberg.net/en/community/stories/hans_zimmer.html


 


Rctec said:


> You are miss-quoting me. And I’ve never been paid by Steinberg for any marketing. So please be careful with your facts...
> Hz



I never understood why some people seem to get upset when others are passionate about the tools that they use to complete their work. I myself couldn’t write much of the music that I’m proud of without those tools that I’m pationate about, so why wouldn’t I and others want to promote them? 

Hey Mr Z, have you had much time using the new Spitfire sample engine with the HZ Strings yet?


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## Saxer (Mar 2, 2018)

germancomponist said:


> Really?
> And when you start a little bit sound design with an orchestra sample here and there ....? But sure, then you can use other things, of course.


I never missed that in the VSL player. But I missed some features of the VSL player in Kontakt. At least when I do orchestral stuff. For other things I wouldn't choose VSL. Or I'd export the parts I want to mangle and choose the toys of my choice. Kontakt has become a kind of ecosystem inside the DAW while I see at least the whole DAW as the ecosystem I'm working in. And even that is a very narrow way to look at music production.


----------



## EvilDragon (Mar 2, 2018)

Saxer said:


> The synth engine of Kontakt is something an orchestral library player doesn't need. The VSL player is much more efficient than Kontakt with less CPU usage and faster opening GUI. It doesn't have to carry tons of step sequencers, filters, chorusses and bitmaps.



Well you're wrong there. Kontakt doesn't "carry" tons of step sequencers or choruses or whatnot, *if they are not loaded in the patch in the first place. *Of course bitmaps are used for the GUI, same is true for VSL player as well...


You cannot compare Kontakt and VSL apples to apples because VSL is closed down to 3rd parties. I am not convinced it would be more efficient for the same things that Kontakt is doing.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 2, 2018)

constaneum said:


> with own engine, they don't have to pay like what they've paid for NI kontakt player libraries. So i'm guessing future products would be slightly cheaper?



Well, not necessarily. They are now in full control of the price, so it can actually even go higher, since they don't have to pay the NI fee (which they already likely had an excellent deal on, considering how many of them they did with NI, and how many they'll continue to do, at least this year...)


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## Lionel Schmitt (Mar 2, 2018)

muziksculp said:


> Does the new Spitfire Audio Sample Player have a name ?


Maybe F*CKBOX PRO?


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## Saxer (Mar 2, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Well you're wrong there. Kontakt doesn't "carry" tons of step sequencers or choruses or whatnot, *if they are not loaded in the patch in the first place. *Of course bitmaps are used for the GUI, same is true for VSL player as well...


Ok, than I'm probably thinking wrong. Thanks for clarification. But why is Kontakt the slowest opening GUI of all the plugins I use?


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## EvilDragon (Mar 2, 2018)

It pretty much depends on the amount of graphics used in a particular library, and amount of patches you load in a single Kontakt instance (and of course, the number of groups and zones and effects and modulators loaded in an instrument as I've already explained, so sound designey things like Output's stuff WILL take longer to load - have you ever seen what is happening in those patches internally? They're really pushing Kontakt). Spitfire libraries always opened very fast for me, they aren't really graphically intensive (and not really using lots of fx or modulation anyways, so pretty lean and efficient all over. Stark difference when compared to Orchestral Tools!)...


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## wickedw (Mar 2, 2018)

quantum7 said:


> I never understood why some people seem to get upset when others are passionate about the tools that they use to complete their work. I myself couldn’t write much of the music that I’m proud of without those tools that I’m pationate about, so why wouldn’t I and others want to promote them?
> 
> Hey Mr Z, have you had much time using the new Spitfire sample engine with the HZ Strings yet?



I totally agree. And what are we doing when we're just taking a sentence out of context just because one composer likes a daw that you might not? We're thankfully not in politics so we don't have to enter their style of petty squabbles either.


----------



## mc_deli (Mar 2, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> I am all down for new engines. But a bespoke engine isn't really a threat to Kontakt, its just a lost partner...of which they still have *many*. For NI to feel like they need to improve more would be if developers were migrating to a competitor like UVI Falcon.
> 
> If the engine is solid I am down to use it. Just erring on the side of caution.
> 
> -DJ


My 2 cents (baht)

Investors
SaaS
Behind the Cloud
The goal is to be the industry standard platform
Kontakt is the (unchallenged) incumbent
I would be more surprised if there were not a challenge
Take a look at e.g. AWS marketplace. How mature/defendable is the NI ecosystem? Not so many 3rd parties sold, no built in shop in Kontakt...
Small market... But where else is there for the most profitable sample lib company to go...?

Don't @ me. I'm at the beach


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## Wallander (Mar 2, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> It's a trade off between RAM and CPU. Multitimbral instances use less RAM because for each additional instance of a plugin it takes additional RAM just for existence of it, before you load a single sample. Also in individual instances you cannot share samples if it happens that some patches share references to same samples.
> 
> OTOH having a single instance per sound means that DAW can likely spread them over cores nore easily. However Kontakt also has its own multiprocessing that is employed PER VOICE, rather than per instrument...


I know nothing about Kontakt development, but I just wanted to chime in and mention that on a C++ level you can absolutely share sample memory between plug-in instances. All instances reside in the same memory space. 

If properly programmed, one instance per instrument doesn't necessarily use more or less RAM or CPU than a multitimbral plug-in. The instances can simply be seen as multiple endpoints to the same software. 

What you _cannot_ do is share effects processing. Because the instances may be processed in different threads with different timing and latency. I do multitimbral instruments only because I have built-in reverberation, and running one reverb per instrument wouldn't be an option.

With that said I perfectly agree that it's a tradeoff, because Kontakt is very efficient. If you migrate to your own sample player, which you create from scratch, and you intend to stream hundreds of gigabytes from disk, you're almost bound to take a step back in terms of efficiency. At least in the short term. 

Although I can't find the post now, I think I remember reading you mentioning that the default (realtime) interpolation mode in Kontakt is linear. Hmm... really?


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## novaburst (Mar 2, 2018)

sekkosiki said:


> For your big, epic scores, gigantic number of string players in AIR hall.. hmm, not for me. I'm not fond of too flushed, silky sounds.



I think what made HZ so big in the film and music industry was doing things that other composers did not do.

In a word.....he broke away from the norm and traditional attitude that some had towards film compersition and with it was born a new life of music that no one herd before.

While there is the creative composers that will say finally some one is looking out for us with this huge string library, but may not make a lot of sense to the mondaine or traditional composer.

So now if we want to do some thing outrageous and big and creative we now have the tools to do it with in this library.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 2, 2018)

novaburst said:


> I think what made HZ so big in the film and music industry was doing things that other composers did not do.
> 
> In a word.....he broke away from the norm and traditional attitude that some had towards film compersition and with it was born a new life of music that no one herd before.



Agreed, There is some irony in that he blazed his own trail and unintentionally spawned a generation of composers trying to sound like him without his talent and intellect. But I guess that has always been the case, just not as obviously.


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## bigcat1969 (Mar 2, 2018)

The irony (or something) is that now almost everyone wants to sound like Zimmer to the point we have a VST trying to basically let you shortcut his 'sound' with scripting and mediocre samples while he is known for constantly experimenting and reinventing himself. Which is why he works well for Spitfire who are into inventing as well. Hence the new engine. So how that came around...

Lol what Ashermusic said!


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## Karma (Mar 2, 2018)

bigcat1969 said:


> The irony (or something) is that now almost everyone wants to sound like Zimmer to the point we have a VST trying to basically let you shortcut his 'sound' with scripting and mediocre samples while he is known for constantly experimenting and reinventing himself. Which is why he works well for Spitfire who are into inventing as well. Hence the new engine. So how that came around...
> 
> Lol what Ashermusic said!


It's actually very very versatile... sure you can do the big Zimmer stuff but it can also be soft and incredibly beautiful as displayed in CH's demo.

EDIT: And yes this is my honest genuine opinion


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## procreative (Mar 2, 2018)

The bigger irony is that these HZ titles emulate one style in a long line of HZ stuff, many of the emulators (not the sampler!) mimic the Dark Knight type stuff most and some of HZ's recent stuff [mostly] falls outside of the "typical" HZ stuff these Spitfire titles are alluding to.

Its tempting but in the end the factors against for me are:

1. Shear disc storage size
2. Need almost for a dedicated rig to fully exploit
3. Almost too many choices
4. The unknown of that Sample Player
5. Not enough esoteric articulations [for me]

But kudos for Spitfire attempting such an insane orchestra size, makes 8W seem positively skinny.


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## VinRice (Mar 2, 2018)

The Spitfire player being used in the demos was version 0.4.4 so I imagine there will be tweaks and optimisations before the end of March. At the moment for instance, there is no option to use UACC KS which would be a shame since it's working well with Logic. I would also like to see at least Attack and Release controls.


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## John Busby (Mar 2, 2018)

Rctec said:


> You are miss-quoting me. And I’ve never been paid by Steinberg for any marketing. So please be careful with your facts...
> Hz


Amen! And you can tag this user as having nothing good and constructive to say... ever (at least on this forum)


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## khollister (Mar 2, 2018)

VinRice said:


> The Spitfire player being used in the demos was version 0.4.4 so I imagine there will be tweaks and optimisations before the end of March. At the moment for instance, there is no option to use UACC KS which would be a shame since it's working well with Logic. I would also like to see at least Attack and Release controls.



I actually had a conversation on chat with Spitfire yesterday and specifically asked about articulation switching. Jack told me that it ships with a prebuilt KS map, but you can do UACC, UACC-KS, MIDI channel or speed as long as you build your own mappings. A brief look at the manual though did not immediately indicate that UACC-KS (single KS key with the articulation ID mapped to velocity) was doable.


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## EvanArnett (Mar 2, 2018)

From the Spitfire HZ Strings FAQ: 

*"DOES THIS MEAN YOU ARE NO LONGER RELEASING LIBRARIES IN KONTAKT?*
No. We will still be making Kontakt libraries."

It seems like a lot of effort to make a sampler just for one product, but they seem to have already done just that for Phobos. 

As end-users, there is a lot of info we don't get. I think it's entirely possible there may have been a private conversation between Spitfire/"Team Zimmer" that went something like: "Previous HZ libraries are all over the piracy sites. If we are going to move forward with the project, we need to prevent this so people actually buy the product."

Someone in this thread mentioned Play being "a failure", but we have no idea what has happened to EW's sales numbers since its release. I doubt even they can know for sure how much more they make due to Play not being hacked.

As a composer, I love the flexibility and openness of Kontakt, and I always hope we can get the best possible product for our money, but as a Kontakt developer who has seen our products quickly leaked to pirate sites, I can also understand from a business perspective why they might do something like this.


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## AlexRuger (Mar 2, 2018)

benmrx said:


> I don't know...., for me, one the main benefits of Kontakt is that it is so widely used. IMO, standards are a good thing. In my eyes, it's similar to the use of Pro Tools for audio post. One of the biggest things that makes PT so great for post, is that it's what nearly everyone uses. That in itself is a feature you simply can't implement from a developers stance. And it's a feature that's arguably the most important.



I totally agree, but unfortunately in a capitalist system, we're doomed to go round and round the cycle of standards and competition. In my eyes, the only system that truly makes sense is that _platforms _and _protocols _always be open (open source and/or open licensing, etc), a la MIDI or Linux, but those two are miracles in an otherwise very sad story.


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## bigcat1969 (Mar 2, 2018)

I was referring to another piece of software from another company that is pretty much an HZ arpeggio maker posing as an orchestra in my earlier comment. Love em, hate me or just can't afford em, noone can accuse Spitfire of mediocre samples.


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## VinRice (Mar 2, 2018)

AlexRuger said:


> I totally agree, but unfortunately in a capitalist system, we're doomed to go round and round the cycle of standards and competition. In my eyes, the only system that truly makes sense is that _platforms _and _protocols _always be open (open source and/or open licensing, etc), a la MIDI or Linux, but those two are miracles in an otherwise very sad story.



The two are not mutually exclusive - and neither would exist without the other... Community and competition are BOTH required.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 2, 2018)

Wallander said:


> I know nothing about Kontakt development, but I just wanted to chime in and mention that on a C++ level you can absolutely share sample memory between plug-in instances.



Oh I do know that. But I wonder if NI had good reasons not to do it - any performance penalties when this is done, perhaps?



Wallander said:


> All instances reside in the same memory space.



AFAIK (and correct me if I'm wrong, please), this is only true if the plugins are hosted natively within the DAW's own process. If they are bit-bridged (in order to do plugin firewalling, like for example what Reaper and Bitwig offer), then this is no longer true.



Wallander said:


> If properly programmed, one instance per instrument doesn't necessarily use more or less RAM or CPU than a multitimbral plug-in. The instances can simply be seen as multiple endpoints to the same software.



Possibly. But there's some housekeeping that each Kontakt instance seems to require (be it for the quickload or the database or both, I dunno, there's also some preallocation done for certain things, etc.) - the first one you load will take the most RAM (I think around 100-130 MB, don't recall for sure now), and others are less, at 60-80 MB. So this implies that they do share SOME things between instances (GUI assets seem like a likely candidate, at the very least).



Wallander said:


> Although I can't find the post now, I think I remember reading you mentioning that the default (realtime) interpolation mode in Kontakt is linear. Hmm... really?



Yes, really. Because it's the most efficient, CPU-wise. There is a global option to always do offline renders with "perfect" interpolation setting, though - so that is a good thing.

However some instruments do exploit other interpolation modes, depending on their needs. I think the other two interpolation methods are two levels of sinc interpolation, but I did not verify this... "Perfect" setting is really CPU heavy, especially when pitching the sample over one octave...


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## novaburst (Mar 2, 2018)

bigcat1969 said:


> The irony (or something) is that now almost everyone wants to sound like Zimmer to the point we have a VST trying to basically let you shortcut his 'sound' with scripting and mediocre samples while he is known for constantly experimenting and reinventing himself.



All i see is someone sharing his ideas and experience, experiments with others isn't this how it is ment to be.

We all start out copying someone else until we find our own sound, this is not a strange or bad thing to do at first.

So i guess there was a lot of epic stuff out there sounding alot like HZ, but now there is a lot of epic stuff out there that has its own identity and sounds nothing like HZ.


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 2, 2018)

Mediocre samples...?


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## bigcat1969 (Mar 2, 2018)

All I intended to say is what Ashermusic said much better.

And I meant 'The Orchestra' not anything from Spitfire / Zimmer.


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## Wallander (Mar 2, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Oh I do know that. But I wonder if NI had good reasons not to do it - any performance penalties when this is done, perhaps?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To not share samples between instances is merely a software design decision. In the case Kontakt this is probably not a priority. Which to me is perfectly understandable, as you "normally" wouldn't have the same samples loaded on multiple channels.

And you're absolutely right about bit-bridging. In this case the plug-ins are typically run in separate processes, and won't share memory. Unless the host uses a common process for the different instances of the plug-in, which could be a good idea if you ask me. 

I'd also be inclined to think Kontakt shares many assets such as bitmaps. Memory which isn't shared, for obvious reasons, is data that is unique for the channel or the voice. You can have lots of parameters, envelopes, filters and other settings per voice. If you reserve hundreds of voices per channel this will quickly add up to tens of megabytes.

The biggest issue IMO with linear interpolation, when doing orchestral sounds, isn't that it adds artefacts (which is usually what they look for in interpolation shootouts). But it's rather that the sound becomes duller. Linear interpolation works as a lowpass filter at one quarter of the sample rate (e.g. 11025 Hz at 44.1 kHz). So you're losing the highest frequencies and some of the airiness of the sound. It's very easily noticeable in an A/B test with, for example, a 44.1 kHz string section that's played back at 48 kHz.

Sinc or perfect interpolation is overkill with samples that are designed to have lots of overtones, but you need some higher mode of interpolation, e.g. cubic, to get around this issue. It's possible that hermite will work (I haven't tried myself).

It's quite easy to grasp why this happens with linear. Linear interpolation averages two sample _values_ next to each other. So if you've sampled the highest possible frequency sine wave for that sample rate (wave looks like 1, -1, 1, -1, 1, -1...) averaging two neighbouring sample values gives you zero.

If linear interpolation is the default setting in Kontakt, I'm perfectly sure Hans would hear this, and have every right to object. I would much rather drop a few microphone positions than use linear interpolation. And with a product like this, you want it to sound the same when playing notes on the keyboard as you do in bouncing. You can't even be sure that offline bouncing in the sequencer is what's used for producing the final mix.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 2, 2018)

Wallander said:


> Unless the host uses a common process for the different instances of the plug-in, which could be a good idea if you ask me.



Ah, actually Reaper can do that - either create a process per plugin, or a single process for all bridged/firewalled plugins. The first option is the utmost in safety, as it only crashes one plugin's process if a plugin crashes, instead of taking down all other plugins running in the same outside process.



Wallander said:


> If linear interpolation is the default setting in Kontakt, I'm perfectly sure Hans would hear this, and have every right to object.



That is only true if there's ANY sort of zone stretching happening... If the library was sampled fully chromatically, interpolation wouldn't come into play at all (and of course if you run your DAW project at the same sample rate at which the samples are recorded). In any case, it is quite easy to change the interpolation quality if the instrument is not locked for editing:







This is from Albion I. So there IS some zone stretching going on (AFAIK Spitfire mostly samples things in semitone steps), but it is possible to increase resampling quality so you get the same sound when working and when rendering. And since this is not a huge amount of zone stretching, CPU hit from using higher interpolation quality would not be too terrible.


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## Raphioli (Mar 3, 2018)

I'm not a programmer but read the above posts out of curiosity. 
I felt like my brain cells were melting while reading through it because I'm not familiar with what was being mentioned, but still a very interesting read. (like, the linear interpolation thing affecting sound quality etc.)


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## EvilDragon (Mar 3, 2018)

Any sort of interpolation will affect the sound to a lesser or higher extent. The only "proper" way to change the pitch of a sample would be to physically read it at slower or higher sample rate, and for each voice to have its own digital-to-analog converter. This is how some vintage samplers worked (i.e. E-MU Emulator I or II) and results were pretty characteristic.

Of course, such schemes are not possible when dealing with hundreds of voices played back simultaneously on a single device which works in a single sample rate, hence interpolation enters the arena.


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## Wallander (Mar 3, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Ah, actually Reaper can do that - either create a process per plugin, or a single process for all bridged/firewalled plugins. The first option is the utmost in safety, as it only crashes one plugin's process if a plugin crashes, instead of taking down all other plugins running in the same outside process.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Reaper is usually well thought out. 

But I still think linear is too unpredictable for a string library software release that’s focused on production quality. If there’s any form of pitch shifting (even if just a single cent) or you work at a different sample rate than the sample’s, you immediately lose a lot of high end. And it will not be apparent to the average user.

I should mention that most basic interpolation schemes, such as cubic or hermite, have fixed CPU use. Shifting an octave adds no CPU penalty compared to shifting a semitone. It’s only a question of looking at the 4-5 closest sample values rather than just 2 sample values (linear) to more accurately preserve the curvature of the signal.

Ideally, Kontakt should know when a sample is played back in its original form and skip interpolation altogether to preserve CPU.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 3, 2018)

Wallander said:


> Ideally, Kontakt should know when a sample is played back in its original form and skip interpolation altogether to preserve CPU.



Yes, that it does.



Wallander said:


> But I still think linear is too unpredictable for a string library software release that’s focused on production quality. If there’s any form of pitch shifting (even if just a single cent) or you work at a different sample rate than the sample’s, you immediately lose a lot of high end. And it will not be apparent to the average user.



Or won't be apparent to almost anyone at all, since everyone seems happy using Spitfire libraries and are raving about the sound. Well, great majority of people, at least  Most of us don't hear anything above 16k (or even less!) anyways past certain age, it's just the nature of things...


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## NoamL (Mar 3, 2018)

@EvilDragon suppose I have a plugin that senses the user's CC1 value and sends some different CC1 value to Kontakt.

for example I have the two instructions

when User_CC1 = 1, send Kontakt_CC1 = 64
when User_CC1 = 127, send Kontakt_CC1 = 127

In between I am using a linear interpolation which rounds to an integer. So it's like a velocity remapping, but for CC.

Will this screw up the quality of Kontakt's interpolation (between samples)?


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## EvilDragon (Mar 3, 2018)

No, that's a completely different thing. You're remapping CC values, not doing anything to the samples themselves.


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## NoamL (Mar 3, 2018)

I see, good to know. Thanks. How does Kontakt actually calculate the 127 different ways to playback based on the user's CC1 - is it like 127 stored entries of "Playback Sample A at 99% and Sample B at 1%" for CC1=1, then for CC1=2 "Playback Sample A at 95% and Sample B at 5%" etc?


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## EvilDragon (Mar 3, 2018)

There's a CC to dB curve used internally (probably exponential, since dBs are logarithmic, in order for volume control by CC to appear "linear" to our ears), the rest depends on how the developer created the crossfade curves using Kontakt's modulation shapers.


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## Wallander (Mar 3, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> No, that's a completely different thing. You're remapping CC values, not doing anything to the samples themselves.


My bad. I was using the term "sample" when describing single values from the sample. Although technically a single value from a recorded sound is known as "a sample", I realise how confusing this must be. I've edited my post.


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## NoamL (Mar 3, 2018)

Sorry @Wallander, he was responding to me with a different question! You didn't make any mistake.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 3, 2018)

You didn't say anything wrong, Arne. But yes, the term "sample" has multiple meanings and it can get confusing to people.


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## alextone (Mar 3, 2018)

Unless i've missed something, there's no mention of the spitfire engine working in native linux 64bit. 

Am i wrong here?


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## EvilDragon (Mar 3, 2018)

You're not wrong.


----------



## Ben E (Mar 3, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Yep!
> 
> Math is the only truth in this world.



Actually, math *and* “Math is the only truth in this world” are the only TWO truths in this world.

Wait: Math *and* "Math is the only truth in this world" *and* "Math and ‘Math is the only truth in this world’ are the only two truths in this world'' are the only THREE truths in this world.

Wait…


----------



## EvilDragon (Mar 3, 2018)

Endless loop, haha. Limit to infinity. :D


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## Zoot_Rollo (Mar 3, 2018)

Ben E said:


> Actually, math *and* “Math is the only truth in this world” are the only TWO truths in this world.
> 
> Wait: Math *and* "Math is the only truth in this world" *and* "Math and ‘Math is the only truth in this world’ are the only two truths in this world'' are the only THREE truths in this world.
> 
> Wait…



"... and your father smelt of elderberries."


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## NameOfBand (Mar 3, 2018)

muziksculp said:


> Because Percussion is not as critical as Strings when we it comes to timbre, textures, sustained sounds, ..etc.


Please, I beg you. Show me proof of where you in a blind test can tell the difference of samples played through Kontakt vs any other sample player.


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## Mike Greene (Mar 3, 2018)

Wallander said:


> If linear interpolation is the default setting in Kontakt, I'm perfectly sure Hans would hear this, and have every right to object.





EvilDragon said:


> That is only true if there's ANY sort of zone stretching happening... If the library was sampled fully chromatically, interpolation wouldn't come into play at all ...


But if the individual zones in Kontakt have tuning adjustments, then I think interpolation still comes into play, whether the zone is stretched or not.

I can't speak for Spitfire, but in my own libraries, we fine-tune almost all zones. I can't say that I notice any problems with that, but it does make me wonder if I should do all the tuning adjustments outside of Kontakt, then import samples with no fine-tuning necessary.

... as if I'm really gonna go back and do all that ...


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## RiffWraith (Mar 3, 2018)

Sometime back, and for some time, and before Hans joined this forum, Jay was saying that Hans had said that Logic did not sound as good as Cubase. When Hans joined, he said that he never said that.

_Show me proof of where you in a blind test can tell the difference of samples played through Kontakt vs any other sample player._

Nobody - and I mean *nobody* - is going to be able to hear a diff between samples played back through Kontakt, and those same samples played through another sample player. Even if the two results do not null - which would mean that the two players do not play back the samples identically, and that therefore there is a diff - that diff would be so small, it would be inaudible to even the best engineer in a premium listening environment. Anyone is free to try and prove me wrong here.

Maybe Hans can chime in here..... maybe Hans did actually say that he doesn't like the way Kontakt sounds/plays back samples. But why would we all assume that he was saying that he doesn't like the sound in it's basic and raw form? Maybe what he actually said is that he doesn't like the way Kontakt processes audio when zones are time stretched.... maybe he said he doesn't like the sound of the EQs and other fx and processing. Maybe someone simply misunderstood what he said, and/or misinterpreted what he said.

BTW: other than the Cubase marketing page - which doesn't count for anything anyway - does anyone actually have proof that Hans actually said anything? Link? Interview? YT vid? Something?

Cheers.


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## chrisr (Mar 3, 2018)

Thanks Arne and EvilDragon... love being a fly on the wall for such threads!


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## DavidY (Mar 3, 2018)

constaneum said:


> with own engine, they don't have to pay like what they've paid for NI kontakt player libraries. So i'm guessing future products would be slightly cheaper?


I've no idea of the figures, but I imagine that developing and testing a new engine requires considerable investment which would take some time to recoup. And there will be some ongoing costs of support and enhancement which will be higher at first. I'm guessing it will take a few future products using it before they even reach break-even on the engine development.


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## novaburst (Mar 3, 2018)

RiffWraith said:


> _Show me proof of where you in a blind test can tell the difference of samples played through Kontakt vs any other sample player._



Its kind of easy to throw that question in the air because not many are going to bother to show this.

I am a little surprised that you being a developer pushes this aside like it does not exist.

There certainly are engineers that can tell sound deference between players and DAWs esp at certain loudness and low and high frequency's they can tell behaviour difference enough to course them to use other options.

It may not make a difference in this world or your world, but in there world the difference is big, and I think they who claim it know and understand what there talking about but can be tiresome to show especially when the one listening is saying no no no I cant here the difference.


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## muziksculp (Mar 3, 2018)

NameOfBand said:


> Please, I beg you. Show me proof of where you in a blind test can tell the difference of samples played through Kontakt vs any other sample player.



I think one way this can be demonstrated would be if Spitfire Audio was to port one of their String Libraries to their new Sample Player, and we then conducted an A/B test of the same library patches using the two versions (Kontakt vs SA Player).


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## muziksculp (Mar 3, 2018)

Hi,

I posted a question on the commercial forum thread of SA-HZ Strings, but got no replies. So, I will post it here to see if anyone is interested in posting an answer/feedback.

Q. If you heard the three demos posted by Spitfire Audio of HZ Strings, (without knowing any of of the library details/info. in advance ) would you have guessed the number of string players playing in the demo tracks, i.e. 150+, or 200+ , or .... string players ?

Your answer would be very interesting.

Thanks
Muziksculp


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## paoling (Mar 3, 2018)

About dropping Kontakt for a player, the main advantage is to be able implement new things, because believe me there are things that we need since YEARS and Kontakt still don't give us. Just last year we had floating point numbers! Whoa, thank you NI, we are out of 1970 now. Almost. Now if you can give us a way to read what the outputs of the groups / voices are, we'd be immensely grateful.


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## muziksculp (Mar 3, 2018)

I think SA said they will still use Kontakt, but I wonder why they would still stick to Kontakt, if they have their own Sample Player, that they can customize, add more features as needed, ..etc., and not pay any license fees to NI ?


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## mouse (Mar 3, 2018)

muziksculp said:


> I think SA said they will still use Kontakt, but I wonder why they would still stick to Kontakt, if they have their own Sample Player, that they can customize, add more features as needed, ..etc., and not pay any license fees to NI ?



Probably some things Kontakt can do that their player can't do yet. Maybe most of the staff are only trained up on scripting for Kontakt for now and will take a while to train them all up. Maybe Kontakt is just easier to develop for right now. Maybe their player is in beta and they want to test it on the labs stuff first before doing any other libraries on it...


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## RiffWraith (Mar 3, 2018)

novaburst said:


> Its kind of easy to throw that question in the air because not many are going to bother to show this.



This is true.



novaburst said:


> I am a little surprised that you being a developer pushes this aside like it does not exist.



It does not exist.

The fact that I have developed a few sample libs means nothing. It neither makes me wrong, nor right.



novaburst said:


> There certainly are engineers that can tell sound deference between players and DAWs esp at certain loudness and low and high frequency's they can tell behaviour difference enough to course them to use other options.



I really do not want to get into a debate as to what is what; these convos tend to turn into a pissing match with nothing gained. But what I can tell you is that there are plenty of people out there - name brand, highly respected and sought after engineers - who say things that are false. Not all of them - some. We can speculate as to why, but that might be an exercise in futility. And just b/c a name brand, highly respected and sought after engineer says A sounds different than B, does not actually mean that A sounds different than B. I understand that we tend to hold these people in high regard, but they are not god-like figures who are not flawed. They are in fact flawed, same as me, you, and the rest of us. And sure, their opinions are generally worth more than most, but don't just assume that every time a famous, award-winning sound person says something, that it is true.

Final thought: if you import a .wav file into your DAW, and also import that file into Kontakt, and play them back simul., and they null, what does that tell us?


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## Wallander (Mar 3, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> But if the individual zones in Kontakt have tuning adjustments, then I think interpolation still comes into play, whether the zone is stretched or not.
> 
> I can't speak for Spitfire, but in my own libraries, we fine-tune almost all zones. I can't say that I notice any problems with that, but it does make me wonder if I should do all the tuning adjustments outside of Kontakt, then import samples with no fine-tuning necessary.
> 
> ... as if I'm really gonna go back and do all that ...


You should just raise the interpolation mode a notch.  As long as the CPU use doesn't become a problem.

There’s also the case where the user runs the host at 96 kHz. Then all samples will be stretched, because 96k is not an even multiple of 44.1k. 

Just to be clear, I think Kontakt is a great sampler. And as EvilDragon demonstrated, they offer a number of interpolation modes for sample library producers to choose from. I simply don't see linear interpolation as a reliable choice of _setting_ if you aim for the highest possible audio quality. If Spitfire go through the effort of recording 60 cello players to analog tape with uncountable mic positions in a world-class venue, I'm sure their standards are very high.

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread. I'm not going to keep this going. But just to make an audible example, here's a sawtooth wave where I switch back and forth between linear interpolation (the worst-case scenario of it) once per second. I'd say the difference is quite noticeable.

http://wallanderinstruments.com/sawtooth_linear_interpolation.wav (wallanderinstruments.com/sawtooth_linear_interpolation.wav)


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## novaburst (Mar 3, 2018)

RiffWraith said:


> I really do not want to get into a debate as to what is what



not a debate just saying the views do not matter much in this world, compared to a sound engineer we are death,

that sort of stuff comes with a lot of experience we just make music that's all, so hold your horses.


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## jamwerks (Mar 3, 2018)

Not sure all this doesn't matter. To a lot of us I think it's very important!


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## blougui (Mar 3, 2018)

@ wallander : SA or Rctec specified they didn’t use tape
in their HZS recording.


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## germancomponist (Mar 3, 2018)

I could get in here now, especially since I still remember very well what Hans and Eric Persing have said on this subject (both experimented and are well known for their outstanding good ears ...), but I hold myself back, find the discussion interesting.
What do u think is the reason, why so many sound gurus swear on Magix Sequoia?


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## muziksculp (Mar 3, 2018)

germancomponist said:


> I could get in here now, especially since I still remember very well what Hans and Eric Persing have said on this subject (both experimented and are well known for their outstanding good ears ...), but I hold myself back, find the discussion interesting.
> What do u think is the reason, why so many sound gurus swear on Magix Sequoia?



Good Point. It's all math... isn't it ? or lots of Placebo ?


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## novaburst (Mar 3, 2018)

The ears can hear much more than what the meter is reading, the meter displays are a guide set to keep us in check, and often makes us lazy.

but there are many frequency's that the ear can hear but it does not register on the electronic meter.


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## germancomponist (Mar 3, 2018)

muziksculp said:


> Good Point. It's all math... isn't it ? or lots of Placebo ?


Another theme, but for me, the placebo is the most important thing in our life! You can get what you want, if you believe ....!


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## muziksculp (Mar 3, 2018)

germancomponist said:


> Another theme, but for me, the placebo is the most important thing in our life! You can get what you want, if you believe ....!



Yes, I feel the placebo effect daily, and it does make me feel good.  Life without Placebo is dull.


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## germancomponist (Mar 3, 2018)

muziksculp said:


> Yes, I feel the placebo effect daily, and it does make me feel good.  Life without Placebo is dull.


https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/...s-mind-by-joseph-murphy-phd-dd/9780735204553/


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## germancomponist (Mar 3, 2018)

Huh ...., let us go back to the topic


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## EvilDragon (Mar 3, 2018)

germancomponist said:


> What do u think is the reason, why so many sound gurus swear on Magix Sequoia?



Perhaps because of some distinctive (if faint, but still there) aliasing artifacts of its interpolation algorithm, surely? 






Bottom is the highest quality resampler out there for $0. Squeaky clean


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## jamwerks (Mar 3, 2018)

Interesting, so what is being showed there exactly?


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## EvilDragon (Mar 3, 2018)

Amount of aliasing artifacts. The darker the background is, the cleaner the signal is. Ideally the background is 100% black and you only see the sine sweep going up, no mirrors anywhere. While quite low in volume in Sequoia example (see color legend, artifacts seem to sit from -90 dB to lower, but notice the top end of the sweep is not fully accurate), these things can add up. Not so with SoX.

More comparisons at http://src.infinitewave.ca/


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 4, 2018)

Spitfire Labs is probably a way of doing a beta test. 

As they’re free, lots of people will be downloading them and then reporting any bugs they find in the engine.


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## thereus (Mar 4, 2018)

So the one thing we have definitely learned is that Spitfire has not discussed its business/technical strategy for the new player and nobody can make a completely satisfying guess. Has anyone actually asked them?


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## NameOfBand (Mar 4, 2018)

muziksculp said:


> I think one way this can be demonstrated would be if Spitfire Audio was to port one of their String Libraries to their new Sample Player, and we then conducted an A/B test of the same library patches using the two versions (Kontakt vs SA Player).


But since that scenario has not yet happened, how can you make the statement that Kontakt has a bad sound engine? Based on what, exactly?


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## thereus (Mar 4, 2018)

This is the anti-hype. They have announced this thing. Nobody can see it or review it and lots of questions remain unanswered. Rather than, or perhaps alongside, creating excitement and pre-orders SA has generated lots of bonkers speculation and mindless gossip. Personally, I can’t understand why anyone would prepay for an unreleased sample library but that’s just me. I don’t really need a book of their photos.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 4, 2018)

RiffWraith said:


> Sometime back, and for some time, and before Hans joined this forum, Jay was saying that Hans had said that Logic did not sound as good as Cubase. When Hans joined, he said that he never said that.
> 
> Cheers.



No, Hans did not dispute that statement. What he _did_ dispute was my reporting that he said Play sounded better than Kontakt, which was my honest memory of our very brief conversation. But he denied it and of course I take him at his word.

All I can say is that a very famous person who has ears like a bat says that he can hear differences between files that null and that he will be publishing a White paper on why that is so. 

I don't know. I think I can hear differences in the same samples played through the EXS24 and Kontakt, and I prefer the EXS24. But it could be psychoacoustics.

Who cares? Use what you like, don't what you don't.


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 4, 2018)

Sounds like expectation bias to me.

It’s just a reincarnated “which daw sounds better” argument...


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## novaburst (Mar 4, 2018)

thereus said:


> Personally, I can’t understand why anyone would prepay for an unreleased sample library but that’s just me. I don’t really need a book of their photos.



Normally the product would be at a great offer (cheaper) costs, so at least that is one advantage.

If the Developer has a good record on product quantity why not go for the offering before it's released.


thereus said:


> They have announced this thing. Nobody can see it or review it and lots of questions remain unanswered. Rather than, or perhaps alongside, creating excitement and pre-orders SA



There are some nice walkthroughs explaining quite a bit on the library, plus lots of read ups.

To create excitement is part of the game it helps sales.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Mar 4, 2018)

Haha I would love to do a blind test with people who think there is a difference between how daws sound like...  if you use the same audio interface/soundcard, same sounds and plugins and everything else being equal.


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## Garry (Mar 4, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> Haha I would love to do a blind test with people who think there is a difference between how daws sound like...  if you use the same audio interface, same sounds and plugins and everything else being equal.



Agree completely, but I do have a related question on this though: I was really surprised to hear that there is a very noticeable difference between my 2 midi keyboards (Komplete Kontrol s88 and StudioLogic 990-XP). Both plugged into the same computer, using the same instance of the same libraries on the same midi channel (and yes, same DAW  ) The SL sounds brighter, noticeably so (yes, I've AB'ed them, and can pick them out). I didn't expect this - I assumed they were not colouring the sound in any way, just sending midi notes. It's perfectly possible I'm deceiving myself here (my AB'ing was not extensive!). But am I wrong: do dumb midi keyboards like this colour the sound? If so, can I manipulate this? Sorry if this is a very ignorant question - it may be, but my ignorance doesn't allow me to know!


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## thereus (Mar 4, 2018)

They have already said that the pre-release price will continue as an introductory price for some time after release so why not keep your money until you have all the info?

My point is that this thread demonstrates that it is not only excitement that they have created on this occasion but confusion also.



novaburst said:


> Normally the product would be at a great offer (cheaper) costs, so at least that is one advantage.
> 
> If the Developer has a good record on product quantity why not go for the offering before it's released.
> 
> ...


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## D Halgren (Mar 4, 2018)

Garry said:


> Agree completely, but I do have a related question on this though: I was really surprised to hear that there is a very noticeable difference between my 2 midi keyboards (Komplete Kontrol s88 and StudioLogic 990-XP). Both plugged into the same computer, using the same instance of the same libraries on the same midi channel (and yes, same DAW  ) The SL sounds brighter, noticeably so (yes, I've AB'ed them, and can pick them out). I didn't expect this - I assumed they were not colouring the sound in any way, just sending midi notes. It's perfectly possible I'm deceiving myself here (my AB'ing was not extensive!). But am I wrong: do dumb midi keyboards like this colour the sound? If so, can I manipulate this? Sorry if this is a very ignorant question - it may be, but my ignorance doesn't allow me to know!


Could be a velocity thing.


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## jtnyc (Mar 4, 2018)

Garry said:


> Agree completely, but I do have a related question on this though: I was really surprised to hear that there is a very noticeable difference between my 2 midi keyboards (Komplete Kontrol s88 and StudioLogic 990-XP). Both plugged into the same computer, using the same instance of the same libraries on the same midi channel (and yes, same DAW  ) The SL sounds brighter, noticeably so (yes, I've AB'ed them, and can pick them out). I didn't expect this - I assumed they were not colouring the sound in any way, just sending midi notes. It's perfectly possible I'm deceiving myself here (my AB'ing was not extensive!). But am I wrong: do dumb midi keyboards like this colour the sound? If so, can I manipulate this? Sorry if this is a very ignorant question - it may be, but my ignorance doesn't allow me to know!



Being that they are midi controllers, there is no audio passing through them, therefore they cannot color the sound. As already mentioned, you might be hearing a brighter sound because one is more sensitive than the other and is triggering higher velocities. Even tho you think your triggering the same velocities, you might not be. Test it out. Record the same passage from both controllers, then check the velocities.


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## germancomponist (Mar 4, 2018)

There must be a good reason why they do their own player. Yes, no?
Maybe, as it is very often, it is a money thing, but maybe there is much more....? I am sure they will tell us more about this in the future.


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## Garry (Mar 4, 2018)

jtnyc said:


> Being that they are midi controllers, there is no audio passing through them, therefore they cannot color the sound. As already mentioned, you might be hearing a brighter sound because one is more sensitive than the other and is triggering higher velocities. Even tho you think your triggering the same velocities, you might not be. Test it out. Record the same passage from both controllers, then check the velocities.



Ah, I see, interesting - that would explain it. In fact, I prefer to use the SL, because I find it more responsive, whereas the s88 is stiffer, so harder to play quickly, so that's almost certainly reflected in the velocities. Thanks, that's very helpful, and I hope wasn't too dumb a question!


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## jtnyc (Mar 4, 2018)

Garry said:


> Ah, I see, interesting - that would explain it. In fact, I prefer to use the SL, because I find it more responsive, whereas the s88 is stiffer, so harder to play quickly, so that's almost certainly reflected in the velocities. Thanks, that's very helpful, and I hope wasn't too dumb a question!



Not at all -)


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## jamwerks (Mar 4, 2018)

germancomponist said:


> There must be a good reason why they do their own player.


I bet maybe the monthly $100k checks to NI have something to do with it!


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## novaburst (Mar 4, 2018)

Garry said:


> I was really surprised to hear that there is a very noticeable difference between my 2 midi keyboards



You could be experiencing dirty contacts under your keys when this happens the sharpness goes from the sound and it becomes dull, this is very noticeable when using piano.

Also contacts ware and tear, to maintain them you need to open your controller to get access and clean with alcohol cleaner.


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## Garry (Mar 4, 2018)

novaburst said:


> You could be experiencing dirty contacts under your keys when this happens the sharpness goes from the sound and it becomes dull, this is very noticeable when using piano.
> 
> Also contacts ware and tear, to maintain them you need to open your controller to get access and clean with alcohol cleaner.


Thanks, I didn't know that, but this doesn't sound like what I'm experiencing. Also, I don't trust myself enough to start opening up keyboards: before I know it, I've got a bunch of left over screws, for which I've no idea where they go, and 2 dead keyboards. My issue isn't big enough to risk that! If anything, it's more of a feature than a bug: when I want to play softer, the s88 tone, even if it's only because of the difference in velocity, can be useful. So, I'll stick with my current setup, dirty as it may be!


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## PaulBrimstone (Mar 4, 2018)

Garry said:


> Thanks, I didn't know that, but this doesn't sound like what I'm experiencing. Also, I don't trust myself enough to start opening up keyboards: before I know it, I've got a bunch of left over screws, for which I've no idea where they go, and 2 dead keyboards. My issue isn't big enough to risk that! If anything, it's more of a feature than a bug: when I want to play softer, the s88 tone, even if it's only because of the difference in velocity, can be useful. So, I'll stick with my current setup, dirty as it may be!


Remember, you can usually/often adjust the velocity curve of an instrument, then save it. Pound to a penny velocity is your problem.


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## Garry (Mar 4, 2018)

PaulBrimstone said:


> Remember, you can usually/often adjust the velocity curve of an instrument, then save it. Pound to a penny velocity is your problem.


Yes, I'm sure that's right, though I had no idea before. I'm not sure I'd know how to adjust the velocity curve for my individual keyboards, but that said, I'm inclined to keep it anyway, rather than adjust it out.


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## PaulBrimstone (Mar 4, 2018)

Garry said:


> Yes, I'm sure that's right, though I had no idea before. I'm not sure I'd know how to adjust the velocity curve for my individual keyboards, but that said, I'm inclined to keep it anyway, rather than adjust it out.


Yes, but you can also adjust the curve in, say, a Kontakt instrument, such as a piano, without having to fiddle with the controller itself.


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## Garry (Mar 4, 2018)

PaulBrimstone said:


> Yes, but you can also adjust the curve in, say, a Kontakt instrument, such as a piano, without having to fiddle with the controller itself.



Ah yes, I didn't think of that, it's a good point - thanks.


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## VinRice (Mar 4, 2018)

germancomponist said:


> There must be a good reason why they do their own player. Yes, no?
> Maybe, as it is very often, it is a money thing, but maybe there is much more....? I am sure they will tell us more about this in the future.



It's business 101 for any ambitious growing company to take greater control of their destiny by reducing their reliance on third parties. There will be numerous advantages down the road. This is appropriate for companies whose primary mission is creative. Where money is the driving force the tendency is towards modularity and outsourcing. 

The result is that companies that don't make money the central objective tend to be more successful. Making money the primary motivator eventually leads to over-standardisation and a race to the bottom in a commodity market. Taking core competencies in-house protects a company's uniqueness.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 4, 2018)

jamwerks said:


> I bet maybe the monthly $100k checks to NI have something to do with it!



This is not how licensing Kontakt Player works.


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## muziksculp (Mar 4, 2018)

I would be interested in hearing directly from Spitfire Audio, the reason they decided to go with their own Sample Player for HZ-Strings, and their LABs. Everything else imho. is pure speculation, and guess work as to why they did so.

I have my guesses too, but that's what they are, guesses.

Maybe they will spill the beans one of these days, and let us know why they moved away from Kontakt for HZ-Strings, and LABs ? I'm very interested in knowing the reason/s for the switch. Unless they have a good reason for not letting us know the facts/reasons of their decision, then that's their right if they choose not to inform us why they switched from Kontakt.


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## novaburst (Mar 4, 2018)

Garry said:


> don't trust myself enough to start opening up keyboards:



Haha it's not recommended, i did it to one of my main controllers and it kind of stayed dismantled for a few weeks until i found the time to put it together again, then it was .....I'm sure this cable went here and is it this way round, but after a good clean worked like new.



Garry said:


> doesn't sound like what I'm experiencing.



Well if its tone, i dont believe it's key contacts.


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## desert (Mar 5, 2018)

If they’re doing agile, and I’m 100% sure they are based on Christian’s comment, then this new plugin they’ve built would be the minimal they need to release to the public. Then they will iterate it base on our feedback, etc.

Don’t expect it to have all the features day one, but expect 2 week intervals for new features to be added in after release.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 5, 2018)

It is done per product, you buy a certain number of serials from NI so they can be used with Kontakt Player. Once you're out of serials, you can either renew with a new batch or not, it's your choice as a developer. It's not a monthly recurring fee.


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## jamwerks (Mar 5, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> It's not a monthly recurring fee.


My post was more tongue in cheek than really knowing the procedures. And more about estimating (imo) a yearly amount that SF ends up paying.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Mar 9, 2018)

2 new demos! Both really great IMO, especially "Traitors Motive" - even though that's propably my epic-trailer-heart responding and most of you will prefer "The Survivor", which I think is amazing as well.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 9, 2018)

Epic Trailer and heart do not belong in the same sentence


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## Lionel Schmitt (Mar 9, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> Epic Trailer and heart do not belong in the same sentence


Mind showing me a dictionary reference for how the often used term Epic Trailer Heart is written? Or did I kinda make it up and shall thus have authority over how it is spelled...?

Ashermusic
What a word is that again? 
Could've at least written AsherMusic.
+ A smiley doesn't finish a sentence. A "." however does that marvellously.


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## robgb (Mar 9, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> There is some irony in that he blazed his own trail and unintentionally spawned a generation of composers trying to sound like him without his talent and intellect.


Well, in all truthfulness, he trained many of them.


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## robgb (Mar 9, 2018)

novaburst said:


> There certainly are engineers that can tell sound deference between players and DAWs esp at certain loudness and low and high frequency's they can tell behaviour difference enough to course them to use other options.


Oh my God. Are will still having this ridiculous argument? It's 2018 for godsakes.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 9, 2018)

robgb said:


> Well, in all truthfulness, he trained many of them.



Hmmm, no, the ones he trained are pretty good. The ones here who he did not,....not so much.


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## novaburst (Mar 9, 2018)

robgb said:


> Oh my God. Are will still having this ridiculous argument? It's 2018 for godsakes.



2018 that just means it's taken another meaning, don't tell me you have changed your favourite breakfast because we have moved on in time, I love my porridge.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 9, 2018)

Guys, I am just having fun taking the mickey out of people. There are clearly some talented people doing epic trailers.


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## pderbidge (Mar 9, 2018)

jamwerks said:


> I bet maybe the monthly $100k checks to NI have something to do with it!


LOL, there may be truth to that but I'm hoping it's more about expanding the capabilities of their instruments beyond what Kontakt can do. After all, having a platform like Kontakt to get help get their products out there is what helped put them on the map. Don't bite the hand that feeds right?


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## JohnG (Mar 9, 2018)

I would guess a primary motivation would be avoiding piracy, given that so many Kontakt libraries are pirated. In fact, I'd hypothesise that piracy is possibly the top of the list, though of course it could be something to do with the sound.

Either way, I don't mind. I just write music with whatever I can get my hands on!

[edit: sorry -- I am repeating myself]


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2018)

If it's not a dongle it's not complicated to circumvent usually. Eventually Spitfire's player will get cracked too, just a matter of time. Especially since they're pretty popular - that also plays a factor in how fast something gets cracked or not. Just watch.


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## procreative (Mar 10, 2018)

So the trick is to release a sample library nobody wants, it will never get pirated... time to finish my "squeezing the last drop of ketchup out of the bottle" sample library then.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Mar 10, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> If it's not a dongle it's not complicated to circumvent usually. Eventually Spitfire's player will get cracked too, just a matter of time. Especially since they're pretty popular - that also plays a factor in how fast something gets cracked or not. Just watch.


As far as I know EW's Play hasn't been cracked yet. Maybe they should take some inspiration from their protection system.


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## Guido Negraszus (Mar 10, 2018)

Will this work on Win 7? On their website it states Win8/10 minimum requirement. Strange if true.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> As far as I know EW's Play hasn't been cracked yet. Maybe they should take some inspiration from their protection system.



Well, it's iLok plus custom protection on top. iLok itself is a pretty hard nut to crack, as the dongle would need to be emulated. Spitfire's system doesn't use a dongle, so it's a much easier target from the get go.


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 10, 2018)

I would imagine it’s more likely to be money rather than piracy. 

The amount of libraries that Spitfire has is phenomenal, so the amount of money getting kicked up to NI will be equally so.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Mar 10, 2018)

Guido Negraszus said:


> Will this work on Win 7? On their website it states Win8/10 minimum requirement. Strange if true.


If yes, maybe Windows is... sponso... ah - not sure if I should start a conspiracy theory like that.


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## procreative (Mar 10, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Well, it's iLok plus custom protection on top. iLok itself is a pretty hard nut to crack, as the dongle would need to be emulated. Spitfire's system doesn't use a dongle, so it's a much easier target from the get go.



But in the last few years many devs including East West work with the Machine license, doing away with the dongle. So there must be more to why it works than just the dongle?


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2018)

Actually machine iLok licenses were cracked for some products (i.e. Slate, McDSP and quite a few others). EW is still safe because they add their own stuff on top of iLok compression (i.e. Blowfish encryption on samples, among other things).


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## robgb (Mar 10, 2018)

Who uses pirated sample libraries and why? You can't release the music commercially for fear of getting sued so what's the point if stealing?


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## Saxer (Mar 10, 2018)

robgb said:


> Who uses pirated sample libraries and why? You can't release the music commercially for fear of getting sued so what's the point if stealing?


You can't release it? Because it's forbidden? Forbidden like stealing or cracking software? 

I don't think a lot of 'users' of cracked software are publishing in a professional way. Most of them are collectors or hobbyists.


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## robgb (Mar 10, 2018)

Saxer said:


> You can't release it? Because it's forbidden? Forbidden like stealing or cracking software?


Sure you can release it and risk getting sued...


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2018)

Well, first somebody would have to figure out that released piece of music used pirated software. And that's not as easy as you think.


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## bigcat1969 (Mar 10, 2018)

Everything that can be cracked ends up on pirated websites / torrents. It is a badge of 'honor' to put something up, anything. Also some derive income from stuff downloaded off certain hosts. I'm not sure it is even intended to be used. Many people are hobbyists who just want new stuff to play with for a while or are horders.

The bigger the company and the instrument of course the bigger the 'honor', so I'm sure this will be worked on quite hard as it would be huge to be the one to put it up. But even my stuff ends up there which tells you they will post anything, lets face it that isn't high end stuff. It is the same with most anything digital from movies to software.

I've been having fun with digital pinball recently and in addition to the stuff I bought on steam, I found out about something called Visual Pinball which is free and supposed to have great physics. It does and it also uses dubious ROMs to emulate commercial pinball machines. Off it went to the recycle bin and then delete. Lets face it pinball software is probably even more niche than music making software.


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 10, 2018)

I'm not sure if pirated software is a "lost sale" as such - unlikely the pirate was going to buy it in the first place.
So it's a home grown player created to save money (no kontakt) or for technical reasons. Possibly both.


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## robgb (Mar 10, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Well, first somebody would have to figure out that released piece of music used pirated software. And that's not as easy as you think.


I suppose that's true. And I guess that even if they could figure it out, they'd also have to prove it. And how exactly would they do that without seizing the project files?


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## gsilbers (Mar 10, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> I'm not sure if pirated software is a "lost sale" as such - unlikely the pirate was going to buy it in the first place.
> So it's a home grown player created to save money (no kontakt) or for technical reasons. Possibly both.



i disagree would be too strong of a word... i think just that there is a grey scale in piracy. ive met poeple that probably could afford it but since its easier to download the cracked version. so its a mix bag of ease of crackedness vs price vs how famous it is etc. And those poeple might buy complete or some plugins but others would be pirated. 

but kontakt and its libraries have been easily cracked almost since the start. i think those hackers have like a template or something so every release gets cracked like the next day after its release. same with ilok.


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## robgb (Mar 10, 2018)

I could actually see people downloading the cracked version because they want to demo the library before they shell out big bucks to buy it. I really wish there was a way for developers to offer a time-limited demo like many software developers do. Apparently impossible with Kontakt, but it seems as if it would be a relatively easy thing to add.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2018)

robgb said:


> I suppose that's true. And I guess that even if they could figure it out, they'd also have to prove it. And how exactly would they do that without seizing the project files?



Exactly. Even project files wouldn't help. They'd need access to the whole computer - so a warrant for that would be necessary.



gsilbers said:


> i think those hackers have like a template or something so every release gets cracked like the next day after its release.



For Kontakt, it's not like that at all. It's Kontakt that gets cracked, not the libraries. Bypassing the Kontakt Player protection within Kontakt makes all libraries functional without a serial number entered.


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## merlinhimself (Mar 31, 2018)

Anyone else having an issue with keyswitches working/ automating parameters like mic levels?


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## kitekrazy (Apr 1, 2018)

robgb said:


> I could actually see people downloading the cracked version because they want to demo the library before they shell out big bucks to buy it. *I really wish there was a way for developers to offer a time-limited demo like many software developers do.* Apparently impossible with Kontakt, but it seems as if it would be a relatively easy thing to add.



Kirk Hunter did this Spotlight Solo Strings.


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## robgb (Apr 1, 2018)

kitekrazy said:


> Kirk Hunter did this Spotlight Solo Strings.


Well, if it's possible, then more should be doing it.


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## Pontus Rufelt (Apr 2, 2018)

I have to say, with the performance of the new player so far, I really wish they’d stuck with Kontakt. Never had any issues with Spitfire libraries until HZStrings. And it’s frustrating because it’s quickly become my favorite spitfire library, I want to use it!

3-4 mics loaded across violins, celli, basses and violas, playing a pad like gesture and it starts straining the Cubase ASIO - this on quite a capable PC. I don’t doubt that Spitfire will work to resolve the issues or help me figure out what could be wrong on my end. But I can’t help but wonder if this would have even happened had they stuck with Kontakt. Definitely feel very burnt as a customer to have a professional plugin, not labeled as a beta, perform this badly when sinking a significant amount of money into it.


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## JohnG (Apr 2, 2018)

Pontus Rufelt said:


> 3-4 mics loaded across violins, celli, basses and violas



I usually stick with two mic positions, which works with a 512 buffer (unchanged from my normal template).


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## muziksculp (Apr 2, 2018)

Hi,

It would be interesting to hear from HZ-Strings users who are really happy with it, and think it is a great, and useful library to have. (i.e. what are the main articulations you are really fond of in HZ-Strings ? and how do these articulations compare to other libraries you have ?, ..etc. ) 

Also given that there are no much variations of shorts in HZ-Strings, what other String Libraries would you layer with it to make up for this limitation ? and do you feel you need to layer other string libraries for more definition, or are the smaller section size options good enough to get more of the definition when needed ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## Pontus Rufelt (Apr 2, 2018)

JohnG said:


> I usually stick with two mic positions, which works with a 512 buffer (unchanged from my normal template).



I don't think it's unreasonable to want to run more than 2 mics though, especially when wanting to really experiment and sculpt the HZ Strings. I've consistently run more mics than that across a lot of other Spitfire libraries without issues.


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## LinusW (Apr 2, 2018)

robgb said:


> I really wish there was a way for developers to offer a time-limited demo like many software developers do.


The PR stunt Spitfire did with Orchestral Swarm, giving away the Sparse Whisper patch, is what got me buying the library. This small patch was maybe only 20-40 MB in size and limited in comparison to the full Hi Strings patch... but being able to play it myself... got me - more than any SoundCloud demo.


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## KEM (Apr 2, 2018)

Personally I'm glad they moved away from Kontakt, I never really liked it. And their new sampler looks so good, and I'm big into aesthetics, once the kinks are worked out I think it'll be a really great system.


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## Headlands (Apr 2, 2018)

I'm not a fan of Kontakt - never have been. It's too fiddly and click-heavy for my taste, and the small size of it is very limiting for companies (and me) to have to deal with. I hate the Spitfire interface on Kontakt, personally. I am in full support of companies like Spitfire developing their own players as long as they're well-designed of course. PLAY is a great example of what can go wrong, though they did (finally) get some things right and I don't mind using it anymore as much as I used to. The HZ interface looks pretty decent to me and isn't a microscopic tiny box like their usual Kontakt interfaces (again, limited by Kontakt's teeny size), but it sounds like performance might not be up to par yet -- I'm sure (hope) they'll address that.


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## dgmusic (Apr 4, 2018)

Pontus Rufelt said:


> I have to say, with the performance of the new player so far, I really wish they’d stuck with Kontakt. Never had any issues with Spitfire libraries until HZStrings. And it’s frustrating because it’s quickly become my favorite spitfire library, I want to use it!
> 
> 3-4 mics loaded across violins, celli, basses and violas, playing a pad like gesture and it starts straining the Cubase ASIO - this on quite a capable PC. I don’t doubt that Spitfire will work to resolve the issues or help me figure out what could be wrong on my end. But I can’t help but wonder if this would have even happened had they stuck with Kontakt. Definitely feel very burnt as a customer to have a professional plugin, not labeled as a beta, perform this badly when sinking a significant amount of money into it.



I just tried out the library last night and have experienced the exact same problem. Although my experience might have been even worse because there was what I'm assuming to be a CPU spike at one point from using 4 patches at the same time; it nearly blew my speakers up as a wall of sound. No other libraries (being used at the same time and routed to diff busses in VEPro) messed up and caused CPU spikes. In fact if I checked the CPU when it was 'spiking' it wasn't actually spiking... the library was saying it was.

The engine is a broken mess IMO. It's a real shame because the sounds themselves sounds amazing.

PS: This is my first post on VI control (hello folks!). I'm a bit more of a lurker but I wanted to get into this discussion because I do find this to be quite a frustrating situation.


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## Pontus Rufelt (Apr 5, 2018)

dgmusic said:


> I just tried out the library last night and have experienced the exact same problem. Although my experience might have been even worse because there was what I'm assuming to be a CPU spike at one point from using 4 patches at the same time; it nearly blew my speakers up as a wall of sound. No other libraries (being used at the same time and routed to diff busses in VEPro) messed up and caused CPU spikes. In fact if I checked the CPU when it was 'spiking' it wasn't actually spiking... the library was saying it was.
> 
> The engine is a broken mess IMO. It's a real shame because the sounds themselves sounds amazing.
> 
> PS: This is my first post on VI control (hello folks!). I'm a bit more of a lurker but I wanted to get into this discussion because I do find this to be quite a frustrating situation.



Yeah there really appears to be some incredibly severe issues on the Windows side. @Paul Thomson @SpitfireSupport can you give us an update on the Windows performance situation? I’ve barely been able to use the library for a week now, which definitely is getting frustrating when having spent quite a bit of money. I assume that Spitfire will abide by European consumer laws and give refunds if they are unable to address the issue too.

Remarkable that such severe issues slipped through to a release version.


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