# Real vs Hyper-real for your productions?



## Synesthesia (Sep 26, 2008)

I find myself constantly going quite far away from a very traditional sound when producing my compositions (which are mostly hybrid, not straight orchestral) and am interested to know how you guys n gals approach this issue.

For example, theres the 'real' approach where you try to get as close as possible to a real orchestra sound (as we hear in TJs work, and Mike Verta's mockup that was discussed here recently).

But while I like my actual instruments to sound as real as possible, I like to frame them in a 'hyper-real' context, more dynamic, maybe more SSL type high end etc, sometimes going for a very Neve console sound with independent left and right compression, and so on.

I'd be interested to hear some other folks thoughts on this - obviously its very personal and theres no right or wrong, but is this a part of the composition stage or part of the production stage for you?

I love reading about mixing and creating excitement through mixes - I've got Dye's MILAR and the Mixing With You Brain book, and so on. 

Any thoughts?

cheers!

Paul


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## Jack Weaver (Nov 4, 2008)

+1 for hyper-realism. 

There's no sense in completely tying to emulate an orchestra. Besides you do realize how many edits and effects there are in classical records these days.

The public has been educated by professional pop recording techniques for decades now. They tend to accept whatever comes out over their speakers as having some sort of validity. Think back to Sgt. Pepper. Rock bands did not sound like that in the bars across America then. 

Think of all the effects & synths in cinema music. Some movies are more sound design oriented than compositional. Sound itself defines and frames the artistic direction - not merely notes from an orchestra. 

I like this trend.


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## Niah (Nov 4, 2008)

Hello Synesthesia,

I'm not really sure I am getting this "hyper-real" concept you are talking about. I mean I've read your post a few times but somehow I don't see how what you are saying is any different than what TJ is doing for instance.

To me the orchestra on film scores is always enchanced by whatever methods of recording that make it sound more spectacular than just playing live and still remaining a very acoustic and natural sound so to me with samples it is just the same, sometimes you need to go overboard with your methods to make it sound as real as possible. Most likely TJ does some extreme things to his mixes as well but I can only guess.

Since I'm curious about this could you post a demo or a piece of music demonstrating what you are describing?

thanks


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## midphase (Nov 4, 2008)

I'm a big proponent of giving samples their own sound and let them be what they want to be. I find the quest for the ultimate realism to be futile and self-harming. It's odd to me that those who seek to most closely emulate the real orchestra are those who also seek to ultimately be given the budget to work with real orchestras, yet their quest for realism out of samples pushes them away from their goal and not towards it.

I guess count me in the hyper-real column...whatever that means!


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## Hannes_F (Nov 5, 2008)

It may sound funny but I am all for hyper-real live playing 

Cause real is really not the same as real. Does that make any sense?


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## Niah (Nov 5, 2008)

Ashermusic @ Wed Nov 05 said:


> Well, you guys all know how I feel about this after all my rants about the utter folly of thinking you can ever make the samples sound truly real.



oh it's you again, I'm already scared of continuing this discussion... :mrgreen: 

there's one thing I agree with Asher though is that the Mike Verta's mockup didn't impress me, it was good but I don't know it's not au pair with some of the best things I've heard in this forum over the years .

to me sound is an illusion and just because you don't have an orchestra doesn't mean you can't make a piece that sounds just like an orchestra, and the same applies to many other things.
reverb is just one example
hence the term sounding real, sounding like...something
All I care about is when your brain doesn't notice the difference anymore

Funny thing though is that composers seem to be more easily fooled judging from some of things I have read on these forums, maybe we just want to believe more than others? ~o) :lol: 

There's some serious underestimation about the average listener which have spent all their lifes listening to some of the best recorded music ever, everything they hear is a comparison to that.
sometimes everything we hear is just a comparison to the best mockup we have heard so far...

But I guess what I am trying to say is that an orchestral piece done with orchestral samples that doesn't sound at least close to what an orchestra would sound playing that is just a step between me and the music and I just can't "see" it, it's just like trying to imagine things which aren't really there or the artist's intent. Especially because most of the music posted here doesn't come with instructions :twisted: 

Thing is that most of orchestral commercial libraries speak sample the minute you hit the key, and that's what most people use it. Symphobia on the other day is a different beast, you can actually feel something when you hit a sustan there. No secrets here folks just a good concept and some fine recordings. I won't argue about symphobia's lack or performance capabilities but part of the illusion is not showing the library's faults, writing for samples that's what they say. Some people on the other hand have other opinions about symphobia and we will just have to agree to disagree on that. I mean if you don't think the recordings on symphobia sound real, than your concept of sounding real is not my concept of sounding real....

Another thing which I find it very interesting in the sample world is that a few years ago producing Jazz with samples was almost mission impossible. Now we have BBB and samplemodeling and I don't know about you guys but the stuff I hear with these toys makes me forget about everything and simply enjoy the music and that's what's all about.

So very good times for the jazzheads producing music in their DAW's and not a very good time for orchestral folks...hope that changes soon.


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## lee (Nov 5, 2008)

I try to make music that has the feel of an orchestra in some sense, not to sound like an authentic orchestra.

And that´s what I think is the strength of orchestral samples.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 5, 2008)

Niah @ Wed Nov 05 said:


> Ashermusic @ Wed Nov 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, you guys all know how I feel about this after all my rants about the utter folly of thinking you can ever make the samples sound truly real.
> ...



WHOA, I made no comment specifically about Mike's mockup or anyone else's on this forum for that matter. I don't do that.


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## Daryl (Nov 5, 2008)

Sometimes one has to make the mock-up sound as real as possible, because of the temp score. In movies this may not be so much the case, but in advertising you would mostly starve if you adopted the "writing to the samples approach", unless the writing to the samples happened to coincide with what the temp score sounded like.

D


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## Leon Willett (Nov 5, 2008)

Realism! I love the sound of the orchestra! It makes me SHAKE MAH BOOTY.


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## Leon Willett (Nov 5, 2008)

Ashermusic @ Tue Nov 04 said:


> Well, you guys all know how I feel about this after all my rants about the utter folly of thinking you can ever make the samples sound truly real.


I try to make my stuff sound completely real! I love doing that it's great fun. What do you think? http://www.leonwillett.com/music/ (www.leonwillett.com/music/)


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## artsoundz (Nov 6, 2008)

Leon Willett @ Thu Nov 06 said:


> Ashermusic @ Tue Nov 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, you guys all know how I feel about this after all my rants about the utter folly of thinking you can ever make the samples sound truly real.
> ...



Leon, I think this sounds very realistic and more than decent writing. Seven Wonders sounds very good. I've skimmed some of the other music and it all are very well done. Bookmarked...

Sounds like you've spent a few hours figuring it all out. : )

Hope you can stick around here and pass on some tips. For example- what libraries do you use?


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## schatzus (Nov 6, 2008)

Leon,
VERY realistic and excellent writing too. +1 on artsoundz comments as well.
What libraries are you blending? You can't be getting all of that from one...or are you?


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## Christian Marcussen (Nov 6, 2008)

French Horn is WIVI.


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## Leon Willett (Nov 7, 2008)

Hey! My favourite stuff that I use is: 

- SAM Brass
- SAM True Strike
- Vienna Woodwinds
- Miroslav oboe
- bits and bobs from EWQLSO but not much
- a big mixture of strings from many libs (VSL, EW, miro + some custom samples) all held together with sips

I highly recommend SIPS!!! I use it on everything and it's fantastic.


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## Christian Marcussen (Nov 7, 2008)

Leon Willett @ Fri Nov 07 said:


> Hey! My favourite stuff that I use is:
> 
> - SAM Brass
> - SAM True Strike
> ...



Really? I would have sworn the horn was WIVI


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## synthetic (Nov 7, 2008)

I can't imagine doing something to make my mockup less real, though I'll work all night to make it more real.


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## synthetic (Nov 7, 2008)

Great stuff, Leon. So what is that horn in Seven Wonders?


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## Leo Badinella (Nov 7, 2008)

Leon Willett @ Thu Nov 06 said:


> Ashermusic @ Tue Nov 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, you guys all know how I feel about this after all my rants about the utter folly of thinking you can ever make the samples sound truly real.
> ...



Sounds great!

I enjoyed the Lost Eden Mothership Combat track very much.

What is SIPS?


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## Ashermusic (Nov 7, 2008)

synthetic @ Fri Nov 07 said:


> I can't imagine doing something to make my mockup less real, though I'll work all night to make it more real.



I will work all night (if I have to) to make it sound better and I won't give a fiddler's fart as to whether the improvements make it sound more or less real if it sounds better to my ears.


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## Niah (Nov 7, 2008)

Ashermusic @ Fri Nov 07 said:


> synthetic @ Fri Nov 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I can't imagine doing something to make my mockup less real, though I'll work all night to make it more real.
> ...



So basically if I understood you correctly you are in agreement with everyone else here you just choose to use another word.

In the end to me better is real and real is better.

keepin' it reeeel baby 

WORD ! :mrgreen: 


Anyway what's this hyper-real thing? Can someone please explain?


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## Synesthesia (Nov 7, 2008)

Some really interesting posts!

Just to clarify what I meant by 'Hyper real'.

I mean to deliberately exaggerate for the purposes of style or taste beyond what might be considered 'real' sounding.

For example, some might find using independent compressors on the left and right mix buss channels bizarre in an orchestral context. I find it thrilling in some contexts!

Basically its a no rules approach. Its taking the smoke and mirrors of straight classical recording to the degree that is common in most commercial music production, and in fact deliberately stealing ideas from that arena and using them in orchestral mockups (or hybrid mockups).

I'm interested to know how we fall either side of the fence - or even if there is a fence - as to how many use commercial production tricks on their orchestral material and how many prefer to go for a 'real' sound.

(I don't mean also that in hyper real the instruments sound any less like they were played by musicians, necessarily.)

Keep the thoughts coming!

Cheers,

Paul


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## synthetic (Nov 7, 2008)

It sounds like you're comparing film scoring techniques with classical recording techniques. I wouldn't call that real versus hyper-real, I'd call it classical versus Hollywood. (Zimmerian Hollywood, not Williams' Hollywood)


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## lee (Nov 8, 2008)

Leo Badinella @ Fri Nov 07 said:


> Leon Willett @ Thu Nov 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Tue Nov 04 said:
> ...



It´s great, it´s free and you can read about it and download it here:
http://nilsliberg.se/ksp/scripts/sips/sips.htm

Quoting Nils Liberg: "With this family of scripts you can make realistic glides, connected legato playing, and human-like vibrato.

Having many parameters, excellent coding and a well thought design, this suite will soon become the new stardard in midi sequencing."

The one you should thank is Robert Villwock. aka our Big Bob.


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## lux (Nov 8, 2008)

a reply to the OP question simply doesnt exist.

This argument will be debated over and over for ages just because all of us guys start from different listening experiences, tastes and objectives.

I have an idea of tastes of some of the guys who posted here and i'm not surprised to see that they speak accordingly to that. I do it every time too.

Orchestral works sounds have radically changed lot of times during the history of recordings and soundtracks, and i would not be surprised by some people finding "fake" a string section with less than a zillion players, just because jtheyre used to that, they love that too. At the same time i'm not surprised by me, that i'm a sucker of more "classical soundtrack" sound, that find those large appassionataish ensembles sounding more or less like a Roland Juno.

I believe that considering where we come from would help this and other discussions, instead of simply comparing examples that in most cases sound however good, just you need to listen them from a different perspective than your own

Luca


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## Ashermusic (Nov 8, 2008)

Niah @ Fri Nov 07 said:


> Ashermusic @ Fri Nov 07 said:
> 
> 
> > synthetic @ Fri Nov 07 said:
> ...



No "real" does NOT mean the same thing as better.

Here is just one example: If you double some good cello samples with a warm analog synth patch it will not sound more "real" but it very well may sound better.


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## Leon Willett (Nov 8, 2008)

Hey! The french horn in seven wonders is SAM solo horn.


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## Christian Marcussen (Nov 8, 2008)

Leon Willett @ Sat Nov 08 said:


> Hey! The french horn in seven wonders is SAM solo horn.



Sounds very nice


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## Niah (Nov 8, 2008)

lux @ Sat Nov 08 said:


> a reply to the OP question simply doesnt exist.
> 
> This argument will be debated over and over for ages just because all of us guys start from different listening experiences, tastes and objectives.
> 
> ...



Very good post Luca,

I think that's extremely important to understand each person's view.

Me personally I can't say I really have a stated preference, although there's obviously things I like and others I don't.

In every decade of film you pretty much have films which are more traditional and call for traditional scores and the so called "hip" movie which call for a hip score. It's not that black of white or course and I am mainly talking about commercial mainstream cinema.

These hip scores are basically the incorporation of musical elements from the popular music at the time. 

In the 60's everything was jazzy with doses of psychelia, exotic instrumentation like sitars and sometimes weird analog electronica.

In the 70's, with such genres like blaxploitation, the big band jazzy scores progressed to funky, soul and most of the times with alof of Disco in it.

In the 80's it was when synths ruled, not only where synths very present in these hip scores but also some scores were completely made with synths.

I love all of these past scores btw.

So I have to laugh a little when I hear people complaining about zimmer and Co for these hybrid scores that are killing traditional classic recorded orchestra. It has always been like this, and I don't think we can say that there's not alot diversity in the film world.

Nevertheless I am not too crazy with some of the more recent works from zimmer and Co in the these hip scores, not because they sound modern but quite the opposite. To me one of these guys fault is mixing with the orchestra some really cheezy outdated 80's sounds. Not in a simbiotic way, but playing at the same time as the orchestra....meaning - Real french horns + Synth french horns, creating this really pile of mud. Although I must say I like the new batman scores.

But to me guys like John Powell, Christophe Beck, Cliff Martinez and Clint Mansell and the ones who are really doing modern scores.

And since I haven't mentioned any of the so to speak traditional score, one that is very recent and comes to mind is King Kong. To me the orchestra in King Kong just sounds fantastic, so loud, bombastic, beautiful, intimate, fat, you name it.

Another one is of course muder in the first degree, strings never sounded this good.

As for your comment of the appasionatas I see where you are getting at, but I am not sure if I agree entirely with it.

To me the appasionatas sound better than the previous VSL strings simply because the string section is much larger. Larger sections seem to translate better into samples, for a very good reason you can't hear the details on a larger section. 

Sampled solo strings, chamber strings, or smaller section strings have still a long way to go in my opinion. Right now as they are I find them almost impossible to use in my music as they are nowhere near the representation of the expressivity and passion that these strings transmit by real players.

And especially devs have not dedicated themselfs into producing something that has a more classical sound. 

Only with a technology like Audio Impressions I see these things possible not with our current libraries. And so far AI hasn't proven that it can be used in a final mix due to its sound.


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## Niah (Nov 8, 2008)

Ashermusic @ Sat Nov 08 said:


> Niah @ Fri Nov 07 said:
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> 
> > Ashermusic @ Fri Nov 07 said:
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But does it sound less real?

I am not sure if I understand were you are getting at.

It think it's impossible to make a cello patch sound more real, either he sounds real right away or not.

The only thing I can think of is EQ, reverb and mastering and still that can only get you so far.

I think symphobia has some synth bass in some patches, we can discuss that they sound better with them, more body, more phatness, more power, more presence, but I am not sure that they sound less or more real. Especially when these synth elements are working in the background, and they are part of the character of the sound.


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## jc5 (Nov 9, 2008)

Leon, very impressive work!  
I hope you don't mind my asking - but what settings did you apply to the SAM horn to get such a beautifully smooth sound? I've tried applying sips to that instrument, but have given up as the resonances and overtones of the samples seem to react badly to the pitch shift, producing a terribly synthy sound that ruins it.. its quite peculiar really.. I haven't experienced anything like it with any other sample set.. :? 

Regarding the OT: The majority of mockups I do are to give an idea of what the piece sounds like before live performance, thus it pays to go for 'real'. One of the keys to creating the impression of 'real' is expressivity - nothing screams fake like static sound. Its also surprising how important balance of dynamics between the instruments (and within each instrument) is - a 'correctly' balanced mockup using inferior samples can sound far better (and more real) than a poorly blanced, jumpy rendition using the best of the best.

But then again these are the problems inherent to samples that have been with us from the begining.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 9, 2008)

Niah @ Sat Nov 08 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sat Nov 08 said:
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> 
> > Niah @ Fri Nov 07 said:
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Yes, it sounds less "real" to someone who knows what the real thing sounds like (I am not saying you do not) but it also frequently sounds better to my ears. And certainly some cello samples sound more real than others, although different listeners will disagree about which sounds more real. And NONE OF THEM sound real next to the real thing. 

More real simply does not necessarily equal better.


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## Synesthesia (Nov 10, 2008)

Its a bit tricky to explain...

I also kind of disagree that Chamber groups are impossible to sample.

I am attaching a cue from Discovery Project Earth that I wrote, which kind of represents what I mean - the balance is all fairly odd, but I like the sound of the mix. In fact, the chamber strings on this are pretty much un-effected although they sit in a neve buss with independent left and right dynamics. This is a mild version of what I am talking about, but it certainly doesn't sound 'real' as such.

Bear in mind this is designed to go under a lot of dialog!

Cheers,

Paul

Turning Pages.mp3


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## alphonse (Dec 3, 2008)

Leon Willett @ Thu Nov 06 said:


> I try to make my stuff sound completely real! I love doing that it's great fun. What do you think? http://www.leonwillett.com/music/ (www.leonwillett.com/music/)



Woua !!!!! Leon >8o 
Set apart the high level of realism , I adore your music, your orchestrations are fantastic. 
" The Seven Wonders of Eridian" Great Sensibility !
I 'm a big fan. o-[][]-o


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## Pando (Dec 3, 2008)

alphonse @ Wed Dec 03 said:


> Leon Willett @ Thu Nov 06 said:
> 
> 
> > I try to make my stuff sound completely real! I love doing that it's great fun. What do you think? http://www.leonwillett.com/music/ (www.leonwillett.com/music/)
> ...



Leon -- your music sounds awesome. I am hearing attention to detail, achieved with samples, that I haven't encountered very often. Your orchestra sounds balanced properly, tone and volume, and this is something you have spent quite some time perfecting, and it shows. I really like your Dreamfall score, especially the live orchestra version!!! Stunning melody. Is there a higher-quality audio available for that?

SIPS is certainly an awesome tool. I can also hear that low-pass filter, combined with volume control, is very effective with horns 

Oh, and a very nice homage with the harmonic progression to TJ's Flight to Rivendale in the Seven Wonders piece!


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