# JXL's Godzilla vs King Kong



## dcoscina

First, I have to say I've been a lifelong fan of Godzilla going back to my childhood in the '70s. I love Akira Ifukube's portentous theme and ingenious way of relating the size of these leviathans in music terms. I've never loved North American interpretations of Godzilla however. They always seem to miss the boat as it were. The 2014 Godzilla was a snoozefest and I didn't care for Desplat's score, even though it was cleverly done. I was hopeful for Kong of the Monsters but that was even worse. McCreary's score also seemed to just be Ifukube on steroids. It didn't really bring anything new to the table. 

Enter 2021- new director- new composer. Godzilla v Kong. Watched it this morning on iTunes. Suitably impressed. One, the pacing of the film is SOLID. Great combination of fast cuts but also deliberate dolly shots and static imagery. Two, the director GETS that these huge creatures don't move as fast as previous movies would suggest they can. From our perspective, they would be moving in slow motion and for the most part, GvK obeys the laws of physics. Thankfully. Three- JXL's score. I am not a rabid fan of Tom's music to be honest. I think it works in the films he's scored and for me, that's fine. But he really delivered a unique, exciting, and ORIGINAL score here. Yes, he has his own portentous Godzilla theme (which reminds me of a Zemlinsky song cycle, and ya know why? I'm bloody fine with that!). But he also has some wonderful synth textures and I even heard a moment with some clever low wind writing. I enjoyed it and found it really elevated the story, especially the dramatic moments between Kong and the little girl. One moment in particular actually floored me- not an action set piece, but a dramatic moment. You will know what I'm talking about if or when you see it. It takes place on the ship, in the rain at night. That's all I will say. 

Any complaints? Well, some of the score sounds like it was done on samples, not real musicians, and I wished some of the orchestral moments were more organic sounding. But I do like his harmonic language and musicality, regardless of the vehicle with which it is delivered. I enjoy the use of synths and it provided a nice element that worked within the narrative. I will be listening to the score on Spotify shortly to re-visit these cues that I enjoyed. 


On an unrelated note, Tom's dog recently passed. As a dog owner, my heart goes out to him. :(


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## Markrs

dcoscina said:


> First, I have to say I've been a lifelong fan of Godzilla going back to my childhood in the '70s. I love Akira Ifukube's portentous theme and ingenious way of relating the size of these leviathans in music terms. I've never loved North American interpretations of Godzilla however. They always seem to miss the boat as it were. The 2014 Godzilla was a snoozefest and I didn't care for Desplat's score, even though it was cleverly done. I was hopeful for Kong of the Monsters but that was even worse. McCreary's score also seemed to just be Ifukube on steroids. It didn't really bring anything new to the table.
> 
> Enter 2021- new director- new composer. Godzilla v Kong. Watched it this morning on iTunes. Suitably impressed. One, the pacing of the film is SOLID. Great combination of fast cuts but also deliberate dolly shots and static imagery. Two, the director GETS that these huge creatures don't move as fast as previous movies would suggest they can. From our perspective, they would be moving in slow motion and for the most part, GvK obeys the laws of physics. Thankfully. Three- JXL's score. I am not a rabid fan of Tom's music to be honest. I think it works in the films he's scored and for me, that's fine. But he really delivered a unique, exciting, and ORIGINAL score here. Yes, he has his own portentous Godzilla theme (which reminds me of a Zemlinsky song cycle, and ya know why? I'm bloody fine with that!). But he also has some wonderful synth textures and I even heard a moment with some clever low wind writing. I enjoyed it and found it really elevated the story, especially the dramatic moments between Kong and the little girl. One moment in particular actually floored me- not an action set piece, but a dramatic moment. You will know what I'm talking about if or when you see it. It takes place on the ship, in the rain at night. That's all I will say.
> 
> Any complaints? Well, some of the score sounds like it was done on samples, not real musicians, and I wished some of the orchestral moments were more organic sounding. But I do like his harmonic language and musicality, regardless of the vehicle with which it is delivered. I enjoy the use of synths and it provided a nice element that worked within the narrative. I will be listening to the score on Spotify shortly to re-visit these cues that I enjoyed.
> 
> 
> On an unrelated note, Tom's dog recently passed. As a dog owner, my heart goes out to him. :(


Not lovely Enzo


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## dcoscina

Markrs said:


> Not lovely Enzo


yes, unfortunately. 😭


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## Markrs

dcoscina said:


> yes, unfortunately. 😭


😭


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## dcoscina

Markrs said:


> 😭


I know- this image kills me... it's my worst fear... my dog Theo is 9. I love him more than life itself.. 

sorry, I guess this thread took a dramatic u-turn. 

But back to the score- some of the quieter moments with the ethnic winds really work well, especially for the Kong material. While I love the bombast of the Godzilla theme, the resonating part of the score is the Kong stuff.


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## José Herring

dcoscina said:


> First, I have to say I've been a lifelong fan of Godzilla going back to my childhood in the '70s. I love Akira Ifukube's portentous theme and ingenious way of relating the size of these leviathans in music terms. I've never loved North American interpretations of Godzilla however. They always seem to miss the boat as it were. The 2014 Godzilla was a snoozefest and I didn't care for Desplat's score, even though it was cleverly done. I was hopeful for Kong of the Monsters but that was even worse. McCreary's score also seemed to just be Ifukube on steroids. It didn't really bring anything new to the table.
> 
> Enter 2021- new director- new composer. Godzilla v Kong. Watched it this morning on iTunes. Suitably impressed. One, the pacing of the film is SOLID. Great combination of fast cuts but also deliberate dolly shots and static imagery. Two, the director GETS that these huge creatures don't move as fast as previous movies would suggest they can. From our perspective, they would be moving in slow motion and for the most part, GvK obeys the laws of physics. Thankfully. Three- JXL's score. I am not a rabid fan of Tom's music to be honest. I think it works in the films he's scored and for me, that's fine. But he really delivered a unique, exciting, and ORIGINAL score here. Yes, he has his own portentous Godzilla theme (which reminds me of a Zemlinsky song cycle, and ya know why? I'm bloody fine with that!). But he also has some wonderful synth textures and I even heard a moment with some clever low wind writing. I enjoyed it and found it really elevated the story, especially the dramatic moments between Kong and the little girl. One moment in particular actually floored me- not an action set piece, but a dramatic moment. You will know what I'm talking about if or when you see it. It takes place on the ship, in the rain at night. That's all I will say.
> 
> Any complaints? Well, some of the score sounds like it was done on samples, not real musicians, and I wished some of the orchestral moments were more organic sounding. But I do like his harmonic language and musicality, regardless of the vehicle with which it is delivered. I enjoy the use of synths and it provided a nice element that worked within the narrative. I will be listening to the score on Spotify shortly to re-visit these cues that I enjoyed.
> 
> 
> On an unrelated note, Tom's dog recently passed. As a dog owner, my heart goes out to him. :(


I'm looking forward to seeing this in theaters now that our King and Lord Gavin Newsome has so graciously allowed us to enter a movie theater again. (I'm just joking but not really, fed up with the restrictions).

I've grown to really like JXL's work. As with anything new it takes a little getting use to but once I heard his scores a few times then I started to dig his approach to scoring. 

But, I'm encouraged by the fact that he really is breaking new ground in film and there's a new major voice that is unique and distinct. And, he shares a lot of what he does on Youtube. Between him and Zimmer and friend Clay Duncan my production chops went from nothing to at least I can stand to listen to my solo productions now. It's only taken me 10 years to learn how to program synths and samplers correctly


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## dcoscina

José Herring said:


> I'm looking forward to seeing this in theaters now that our King and Lord Gavin Newsome has so graciously allowed us to enter a movie theater again. (I'm just joking but not really, fed up with the restrictions).
> 
> I've grown to really like JXL's work. As with anything new it takes a little getting use to but once I heard his scores a few times then I started to dig his approach to scoring.
> 
> But, I'm encouraged by the fact that he really is breaking new ground in film and there's a new major voice that is unique and distinct. And, he shares a lot of what he does on Youtube. Between him and Zimmer and friend Clay Duncan my production chops went from nothing to at least I can stand to listen to my solo productions now. It's only taken me 10 years to learn how to program synths and samplers correctly


I think sometimes film score fans are too distracted by the delivery and don't listen to the actual musical content. Between Justice League and GvK, I've gotten a lot more respect for JXL's harmonic sensibilities. His scoring choices have never been questionable for me- he's always provided very suitable underscoring. As more of an orchestral purist, I will admit that I prefer my orchestral music not layered with synths or at least for there to be a distinct organic element to it like Goldsmith and Goldenthal were often able to produce. but I also admit that's on me and my own personal bias. Nothing about his ability.


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## jonathanparham

José Herring said:


> I've grown to really like JXL's work. As with anything new it takes a little getting use to but once I heard his scores a few times then I started to dig his approach to scoring.
> 
> But, I'm encouraged by the fact that he really is breaking new ground in film and there's a new major voice that is unique and distinct. And, he shares a lot of what he does on Youtube. Between him and Zimmer and friend Clay Duncan my production chops went from nothing to at least I can stand to listen to my solo productions now. It's only taken me 10 years to learn how to program synths and samplers correctly


Don't come to my town. I'm cool, but a lot folks are pissed at the mayor and governor. lol

Back on topic. I first noticed Junkie XL during Mad Max. I left the theater wondering who the composer was. The music and well-developed sound design by the recordists blended so well. Don't feel I always get that balance of sound effect and score. I listen to his "We aren't things"cue when I go to bed.

@dcoscina similar to you, I'd watch Godzilla on the gym floor of my elementary school on Fridays. I guess Godzilla is becoming another long-running franchise. I occasionally will listen to the Desplat score, additionally I like the choral stuff of McCreary's version, and look forward to hearing Junkie XL take on the franchise


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## AlexRuger

A short tribute to Enzo...

Enzo was truly an amazing dog. A nice big gentle pal but always had the energy of a puppy trying to shine through even in his old age.

Here's me and him taking a break from printing stems at like 3am and getting in some cuddle time a few years back...






I feel horrible for Tom. Losing a dog is always tough, and he really loved that dog a ton.

Pour one out for Enzo boy tonight!


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## Markrs




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## dcoscina

AlexRuger said:


> A short tribute to Enzo...
> 
> Enzo was truly an amazing dog. Here's me and him taking a break from printing stems at like 3am and getting in some cuddle time a few years back...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I feel horrible for Tom. Losing a dog is always tough, and he really loved that dog a ton.
> 
> Pour one out for Enzo boy tonight!


:(


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## Richard Wilkinson

I used to think JXL was a bit of a 'whole film as trailer music' composer - crash bang wallop and not much going on musically, but the more I listen, the more I appreciate what he's doing. Especially with the latest couple of scores and the work he's done (for free) to break down the process and methodology. Seems like such a lovely chap too - he's genuinely excited to show people what he's doing musically and why he makes certain choices. Looking forward to hearing what he does next.


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## Toecutter

It's the typical JXL insipid score. His writing is very limited, every film is the same loud and dull stuff, with a pinch of his electronic background that is also very uninspiring. Made the original Desplat Godzilla sound like Beethoven and I never thought I'd miss a Desplat score this much XD Seems like a cool dude but after Justice League and GvK I'm officially done with anything related to Tom. Brain damage, no thank you.


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## sourcefor

Yeah real bummer about Enzo, RIP buddy and JXL seems like a real cool guy taking all that time to explain his cues, real cool! I wouldn’t mind working with him at all!


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## ProfoundSilence

Toecutter said:


> It's the typical JXL insipid score. His writing is very limited, every film is the same loud and dull stuff, with a pinch of his electronic background that is also very uninspiring. Made the original Desplat Godzilla sound like fucking Beethoven and I never thought I'd miss a Desplat score this much XD Seems like a cool dude but after Justice League and GvK I'm officially done with anything related to Tom. Ear rape, no thank you.


I think it's a giant mistake to dismiss anyone even moderately successful musically. Everyone has slightly different experiences and influences - If you think you can't learn something that you can apply to your own work from someone like tom then you're doing yourself a disservice.

Beethoven made one of the most Iconic motifs with 2 different notes.






If anything - the greats like williams tend to make the absolute simplest melodic ideas into something incredible - something both followable and digestible - but also interesting. Tom tends to fill the sound field with more sound design/larger sections than orchestrators typically would, but his music follows the same rules - 1-2 things at a time, clear ideas.


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## GNP

I say Tom's Godzilla score is definitely way better than his Justice League's. But then again, 2 very different projects, very hard to compare.


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## GNP

It's funny because I've given up on the whole HZ Hollywood big drums thing. But as a working composer, I still find I can learn alot from the way Tom mixes such a formula. Just in case further down the road, I'm hired to do something similiar, as boring as I myself find it. Still have to keep up to pay the bills!


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## LudovicVDP

With his "Studio Time" only, the man already deserves a huge respect from me.
It's so nice he takes the time to make those videos and share his process with us (and for free!).
So... I'm a big fan of the man.

And sad new about the dog indeed...


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## SvenE

Toecutter said:


> It's the typical JXL insipid score. His writing is very limited, every film is the same loud and dull stuff, with a pinch of his electronic background that is also very uninspiring. Made the original Desplat Godzilla sound like fucking Beethoven and I never thought I'd miss a Desplat score this much XD Seems like a cool dude but after Justice League and GvK I'm officially done with anything related to Tom. Ear rape, no thank you.


Troll


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## fourier

Toecutter said:


> It's the typical JXL insipid score. His writing is very limited, every film is the same loud and dull stuff, with a pinch of his electronic background that is also very uninspiring. Made the original Desplat Godzilla sound like fucking Beethoven and I never thought I'd miss a Desplat score this much XD Seems like a cool dude but after Justice League and GvK I'm officially done with anything related to Tom. Ear rape, no thank you.


I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion. I draw a lot of inspiration from Tom sharing and walking through his scores. As for theme's, my daughter was humming the new the Batman theme without having seen the movie - she just overheard it when I played Tom's walkthrough once a few days back. I'd say that's a decent sign.


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## Toecutter

SvenE said:


> Troll


I guess you are a fan of KvG and JL! XD It's alright, we can still talk about our different tastes without resorting to personal insults come on


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## Toecutter

fourier said:


> I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion. I draw a lot of inspiration from Tom sharing and walking through his scores. As for theme's, my daughter was humming the new the Batman theme without having seen the movie - she just overheard it when I played Tom's walkthrough once a few days back. I'd say that's a decent sign.


Yes, I respect that but the fact he has a youtube channel does not change the fact that I dislike most of his music. Fury Road is the one exception I can think of right now, since it was his big break after 300 Rise of an Empire, it sounded to me like he put more heart into it. Fury Road suits Tom's over-the-top and over-processed brutal rhythmic banging, despite still being very simplistic,which serves the film perfectly.

But when I think superhero and monster films, I expect Justice League and Godzilla to have strong thematic material, instead of the mindless testosterone injection in form of music. To me it sounds like a 2 hour trailer music or those "epic powerful music" compilations all over youtube, where you can't distinguish one track from the other, like fast food for the ears.

We came from this


to this


Please show the Krypton theme to your daughter 

I think Ludwig Göransson got the perfect balance of modern and classic. Can't praise that guy enough for not taking the easy way out (BANG BANG BRAAAAMS BANG BANG BANG HYYYYYPE BAAAAG BOOOOM BADAAAAASS) and instead treating each project as an actual blank canvas for new exciting music.

I'll edit my original post and remove the strong language, that was unnecessary and I apologize, I had just watched GvK and was very distressed by the music XD


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## MarkusS

I still can't believe they gave King Kong a hipster beard..


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## Bernard Duc

Toecutter said:


> I guess you are a fan of KvG and JL! XD It's alright, we can still talk about our different tastes without resorting to personal insults come on


Well, the way you "criticized" Tom's music was very much personal insults... while calling that kind of broad "criticism", especially if given without any kind of explanation, a troll, is actually quite objective. 

Personally there are some musics that resonate more and some less with me, but in any case I will never criticise publicly a score because I know the absolutely insane work, pressure, and struggles there is in scoring a feature film.


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## FireGS

Bernard Duc said:


> in any case I will never criticise publicly a score because I know the absolutely insane work, pressure, and struggles there is in scoring a feature film



Amount of work in =/= greatness of work out. It's absolutely fair to criticize work. If its never criticized, the artist tends to have no reason to improve. "Everything I do is gold" mentality.


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## Toecutter

Bernard Duc said:


> Well, the way you "criticized" Tom's music was very much personal insults... while calling that kind of broad "criticism", especially if given without any kind of explanation, a troll, is actually quite objective.


I specifically criticized his music and writing, not the person which I don't know him on a personal level and even said he seemed like a nice guy. You may disagree with my opinion about his music or how I put it but that's just it, my opinion about Tom's music, not Tom the person. Please don't turn this thread into another silly drama thread.



Bernard Duc said:


> I will never criticise publicly a score because I know the absolutely insane work, pressure, and struggles there is in scoring a feature film.


It's perfectly fine to dislike something and criticize it. Film music is no exception, comes with the territory, I'm sure everyone involved is mature enough and can take it. And no you won't burn any bridges, quite the contrary, every serious composer I know values honesty. Saves a lot of money!


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## ProfoundSilence

Toecutter said:


> I specifically criticized his music and writing, not the person which I don't know him on a personal level and even said he seemed like a nice guy. You may disagree with my opinion about his music or how I put it but that's just it, my opinion about Tom's music, not Tom the person. Please don't turn this thread into another silly drama thread.
> 
> 
> It's perfectly fine to dislike something and criticize it. Film music is no exception, comes with the territory, I'm sure everyone involved is mature enough and can take it. And no you won't burn any bridges, quite the contrary, every serious composer I know values honesty. Saves a lot of money!



There's more than one factor involving the criticism of film music though

1.) Tom is not hired because he's avantegarde he's hired because she's safe

2.) This genre specifically doesn't want thought provoking complicated music - it wants simple music that enforces the action without getting in its way or distracting.

3.) What Tom wants is not important, it's what the direct wants... Toms job is to please the director, so he gets his cue okayed. 

Plenty of composers talk about this, and at the end of the day, they sign the check and get you the next gig. The hard part is pleasing directors and using the bit of freedom you're left with to make art within those boundaries.


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## AdamKmusic

Going to watch it tonight but from what I've heard & the Godzilla/Kong theme studio time videos I think he's done a really great job. Although I love Bear McCreary's score for G:KOM, like was obsessed with it!


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## Toecutter

ProfoundSilence said:


> There's more than one factor involving the criticism of film music though
> 
> 1.) Tom is not hired because he's avantegarde he's hired because she's safe
> 
> 3.) What Tom wants is not important, it's what the direct wants... Toms job is to please the director, so he gets his cue okayed.


Fair enough, the one hiring dictates the direction of the music, I can't argue with that! One could also argue that it's a typical case of typecasting the composer and Tom has some hidden chops that he can't flex? I watched most of his movies after Mad Max and they all sound basically the same to me, not much depth to it. His production skills are off the charts when it comes to electronic music, but writing for an orchestra, like him actually writing the music? I'll stick to my initial opinion. The scooby doo movie had some great cues but despite the Junkie credits they were written by somebody else. I'm sure you can tell the difference



Not saying he should be exiled from Hollywood for not being the next Jerry Goldsmith, and by all means I hope he keeps getting hired if that's what executives, directors and the general public want these days. But that won't change my opinion about the music lol



ProfoundSilence said:


> 2.) This genre specifically doesn't want thought provoking complicated music - it wants simple music that enforces the action without getting in its way or distracting.



Sorry nope, I will never agree with that. If you don't know the work of John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, Basil Poledouris, Michael Kamen, Don Davis, Max Steiner, Trevor Jones, John Powell, Howard Shore, Alan Silvestri (to name a few) for this very specific superhero or action genre, i highly recommend you to check them out!!


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## dcoscina

Toecutter said:


> Yes, I respect that but the fact he has a youtube channel does not change the fact that I dislike most of his music. Fury Road is the one exception I can think of right now, since it was his big break after 300 Rise of an Empire, it sounded to me like he put more heart into it. Fury Road suits Tom's over-the-top and over-processed brutal rhythmic banging, despite still being very simplistic,which serves the film perfectly.
> 
> But when I think superhero and monster films, I expect Justice League and Godzilla to have strong thematic material, instead of the mindless testosterone injection in form of music. To me it sounds like a 2 hour trailer music or those "epic powerful music" compilations all over youtube, where you can't distinguish one track from the other, like fast food for the ears.
> 
> We came from this
> 
> 
> to this
> 
> 
> Please show the Krypton theme to your daughter
> 
> I think Ludwig Göransson got the perfect balance of modern and classic. Can't praise that guy enough for not taking the easy way out (BANG BANG BRAAAAMS BANG BANG BANG HYYYYYPE BAAAAG BOOOOM BADAAAAASS) and instead treating each project as an actual blank canvas for new exciting music.
> 
> I'll edit my original post and remove the strong language, that was unnecessary and I apologize, I had just watched GvK and was very distressed by the music XD



Superman by Williams is on par with any of the great works to come out of the 20th century as far as I'm concerned. It's one of the most brilliant scores to ever come out of Hollywood. The level of detail, development, and overall dramatic architecture is just unreal. No one writing today can match it. Plain and simple. not for complexity and sophistication. But it is likely Hollywood won't allow someone to even approach this kind of music anymore too. 

but I'm biased as it's my #1 score of all time. Probably always will be.



This scene kills me every time and I've probably watched it a thousand times... more actually.


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## Bernard Duc

FireGS said:


> Amount of work in =/= greatness of work out. It's absolutely fair to criticize work. If its never criticized, the artist tends to have no reason to improve. "Everything I do is gold" mentality.


Of course it's fair to criticize but saying " Typical JXL insipid score. His writing is very limited" is not fair criticism, but a blanket statement with no basis. Especially since Toecutter himself admitted he liked Scooby-Doo, but he decided that since he liked the music and didn't like Tom, someone else must have written the score for him.


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## I like music

dcoscina said:


> Superman by Williams is on par with any of the great works to come out of the 20th century as far as I'm concerned. It's one of the most brilliant scores to ever come out of Hollywood. The level of detail, development, and overall dramatic architecture is just unreal. No one writing today can match it. Plain and simple. not for complexity and sophistication. But it is likely Hollywood won't allow someone to even approach this kind of music anymore too.
> 
> but I'm biased as it's my #1 score of all time. Probably always will be.
> 
> 
> 
> This scene kills me every time and I've probably watched it a thousand times... more actually.



Leaving Home is killer. It lives perfectly within the film, and works away from the film too. When they used it at the Oscars, was a wonderful performance.


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## AdamKmusic

Just finished watching it, I really enjoyed the film! Not too much pointless human story but some very convenient moments!

regards to the score again I really enjoyed what I heard in context but to be honest I felt it was very heavy on Godzilla’s theme, I can’t even remember how Kongs went or recall hearing much of it really as every fight was mainly just Godzilla’s.


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## Toecutter

Bernard Duc said:


> Of course it's fair to criticize but saying " Typical JXL insipid score. His writing is very limited" is not fair criticism, but a blanket statement with no basis. Especially since Toecutter himself admitted he liked Scooby-Doo, but he decided that since he liked the music and didn't like Tom, someone else must have written the score for him.


I'm not assuming anything, the composer shared the cue and footage of the recording sessions on his personal page, publicly. Not really sure what you are trying to accomplish here. It's no secret that Tom has a team of collaborators, despite the single screen credit, didn't you say you know how these things work?


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## dcoscina

I like music said:


> Leaving Home is killer. It lives perfectly within the film, and works away from the film too. When they used it at the Oscars, was a wonderful performance.


So ironic. Superman lost to Midnight Express (1978) for Best Score. but was used decades later in the ceremony to commemorate those who passed on. Aside from a few Moroder enthusiasts, or disco sentimentalists, who still listens to that Oscar-winning score?


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## ProfoundSilence

Toecutter said:


> I'm not assuming anything, the composer shared the cue and footage of the recording sessions on his personal page, publicly. Not really sure what you are trying to accomplish here. It's no secret that Tom has a team of collaborators, despite the single screen credit, didn't you say you know how these things work?


Are you doing that thing where you mock headshot or have you just ironically become him?

I don't really care, but it a humorous parallel to draw. 

I stand by my statement that the music that is undoubtedly toms is still worth learning from(and gets him gigs, not his assistant's work).


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## RonOrchComp

ProfoundSilence said:


> 1.) Tom is not hired because he's avantegarde he's hired because she's safe


Has Tom transitioned?


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## ProfoundSilence

RonOrchComp said:


> Has Tom transitioned?


Typo, my sincerest apologies


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## Patrick de Caumette

Bernard Duc said:


> Of course it's fair to criticize but saying " Typical JXL insipid score. His writing is very limited" is not fair criticism, but a blanket statement with no basis. Especially since Toecutter himself admitted he liked Scooby-Doo, but he decided that since he liked the music and didn't like Tom, someone else must have written the score for him.


Actually, he is correct.
A number of cues were written by his assistants...


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## Bernard Duc

Patrick de Caumette said:


> Actually, he is correct.
> A number of cues were written by his assistants...


Yes, which is the case on many, if not most films. But that's not the same as saying he didn't compose the music.


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## Patrick de Caumette

I think that JXL's biggest strength is that he has a great feel for what a scene needs at any given moment.
Like Toecutter, i think that his thematic skills are not on the same level as his production skills.
But for big actions films, his approach works well.
Huge difference between the original Justice League and the re-cut, thanks in part to his score.


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## dcoscina

Bernard Duc said:


> Yes, which is the case on many, if not most films. But that's not the same as saying he didn't compose the music.


I kinda miss the days when we had a single composer as the author of a score- I know that even Goldsmith and Williams had a bit of help on blockbuster scores but there weren't leagues of people...

EDIT- before everyone jumps on me about how timelines are much worse and all that, remember that in the 70s, there was no MIDI, no DAWs, no means to write faster. It was all pencil, manuscript and a piano. Yes, they often had longer deadlines but they also had less resources to assist them meet to time lines.


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## Patrick de Caumette

dcoscina said:


> I kinda miss the days when we had a single composer as the author of a score- I know that even Goldsmith and Williams had a bit of help on blockbuster scores but there weren't leagues of people...
> 
> EDIT- before everyone jumps on me about how timelines are much worse and all that, remember that in the 70s, there was no MIDI, no DAWs, no means to write faster. It was all pencil, manuscript and a piano. Yes, they often had longer deadlines but they also had less resources to assist them meet to time lines.


Nowadays A list composers are corporations of their own.
Back then, composers were part of the movie studios.

But on a technical level, the quality expectations of a score are much higher than they used to be.
And composers feel like they cannot turn down any project, and so the need for assistants.


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## jbuhler

dcoscina said:


> I kinda miss the days when we had a single composer as the author of a score- I know that even Goldsmith and Williams had a bit of help on blockbuster scores but there weren't leagues of people...
> 
> EDIT- before everyone jumps on me about how timelines are much worse and all that, remember that in the 70s, there was no MIDI, no DAWs, no means to write faster. It was all pencil, manuscript and a piano. Yes, they often had longer deadlines but they also had less resources to assist them meet to time lines.


There was plenty of uncredited composing going on in the studio era too. As well as replacement of composer written cues with items in the studios’ libraries. Neumeyer and Platte’s study of Rebecca documents it for that film. 



There were I think at least four other composers that wrote cues for the film. All evidence suggests this process was normal during the studio era. 

Stagecoach won an Academy Award with multiple credited composers and more composers than that contributed to the score. (It’s also an excellent score even though it didn’t have one composer in charge.)


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## Patrick de Caumette

jbuhler said:


> There was plenty of uncredited composing going on in the studio era too. As well as replacement of composer written cues with items in the studios’ libraries. Neumeyer and Platte’s study of Rebecca documents it for that film.
> 
> 
> 
> There were I think at least four other composers that wrote cues for the film. All evidence suggests this process was normal during the studio era.
> 
> Stagecoach won an Academy Award with multiple credited composers and more composers than that contributed to the score. (It’s also an excellent score even though it didn’t have one composer in charge.)



It makes sense, since a pool of composers belonged to a studio, and only the end result mattered.


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## jbuhler

Patrick de Caumette said:


> It makes sense, since a pool of composers belonged to a studio, and only the end result mattered.


Except Rebecca was a Selznick property so all his composers were hired freelance. In the case of Waxman, Selznick rented him out from MGM, but all the uncredited composers had freelance contracts. Some were doing orchestrations in addition to additional music. At least one cue used music from an earlier Selznick film. Waxman used a number cues he had written for the MGM library as well, and there are contracts for the use of all of that music as well. 

The contracts for all of this are available for consultation at the Harry Ransom Center, where Selznick’s papers are housed.


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## Samy Cheboub

Toecutter said:


> It's the typical JXL insipid score. His writing is very limited, every film is the same loud and dull stuff, with a pinch of his electronic background that is also very uninspiring (...) The scooby doo movie had some great cues but despite the Junkie credits they were written by somebody else. I'm sure you can tell the difference







We should all love each other and stop hate speech (especially those motivated by jealousy).


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## Bernard Duc

dcoscina said:


> I kinda miss the days when we had a single composer as the author of a score- I know that even Goldsmith and Williams had a bit of help on blockbuster scores but there weren't leagues of people...
> 
> EDIT- before everyone jumps on me about how timelines are much worse and all that, remember that in the 70s, there was no MIDI, no DAWs, no means to write faster. It was all pencil, manuscript and a piano. Yes, they often had longer deadlines but they also had less resources to assist them meet to time lines.


You realize that no MIDI and computers mean it's actually much easier to write music quickly? On one side they didn't have to produce mockups for every single new version of the music (and by professional I mean that they are good enough to end up in the film), and on the other side film edits were much more often locked because while nowadays they keep making changes daily because they can just open the project on the computer and make changes. 

But as someone said above, film music has always been a team sport.


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## dcoscina

Samy Cheboub said:


> We should all love each other and stop hate speech (especially those motivated by jealousy).


While I agree we should be more respectful I don't love that old strawman chestnut that people criticize because they are jealous. Maybe they just dislike this kind of music, especially if they were weened on orchestral music composed by Stravinsky, Bartok, Beethoven, Bach, Prokofiev, Mahler, etc etc etc . It's fair to assume that might be the leading motivator.


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## dcoscina

Bernard Duc said:


> You realize that no MIDI and computers mean it's actually much easier to write music quickly? On one side they didn't have to produce mockups for every single new version of the music (and by professional I mean that they are good enough to end up in the film), and on the other side film edits were much more often locked because while nowadays they keep making changes daily because they can just open the project on the computer and make changes.
> 
> But as someone said above, film music has always been a team sport.


are you saying this because you know this for a fact? or are you speculating? Did you work in the industry back in the '70s and 80s?


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## MarkusS

Tom‘s name sure appeared in many big Hollywood films lately and the style is hugely dominated by fff brass and epic percussions. But I find that in the scores there are always some subtle elements that make them stand above the average epic score (the chromatic element in the Godzilla theme, the smashing sound of the percussion, an interesting string line).

If anything, it tells us what the market wants now, not necessarily what the composer or even the director wants, it’s what (is assumed) the audience is expecting to hear in such a movie and the producers will stick to it. Why take risks on such a huge budget production?

The music aims to make sure everyone gets it and relies heavily on established formulas. Probably John Williams at the time of the first Star Wars film was much more free, as they never could have expected the film would become such a hit.

It’s the same with the movie itself btw. I mean Godzilla and King Kong are not exactly new. Not exactly a risky and innovative idea. Again Star Wars was new and they took a risk at the time producing it. Now that it is a safe value, how many sequels and side stories have we seen in the same style?

Maybe at the moment the market is not open for new ideas and concepts and will rather rely on safe and established brands. So the music is simply following that same logic.

PS George Lucas is definitely a genius for coming up with the Star Wars saga and even more so for turning it into a film. I wonder if in today’s market he would still get a chance to develop his ideas or if he’d get rejected in favour of established brands from 40-50 years ago.


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## Samy Cheboub

dcoscina said:


> While I agree we should be more respectful I don't love that old strawman chestnut that people criticize because they are jealous.


Oh I agree. I was ironic.


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## Gene Pool

Bernard Duc said:


> You realize that no MIDI and computers mean it's actually much easier to write music quickly? On one side they didn't have to produce mockups for every single new version of the music (and by professional I mean that they are good enough to end up in the film), and on the other side film edits were much more often locked because while nowadays they keep making changes daily because they can just open the project on the computer and make changes.
> 
> But as someone said above, film music has always been a team sport.


You realize that no MIDI and computers means that composers had to eff around with stop watches, click track books, math, click spools, moviolas, play reductions of their cues on the piano for the director, plus which produce *competently orchestrated* sketch scores, and sometimes even produce some or all of the full score themselves, and no ComposerHelper™ software or samples.


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## dcoscina

Gene Pool said:


> You realize that no MIDI and computers means that composers had to eff around with stop watches, click track books, math, click spools, moviolas, play reductions of their cues on the piano for the director, plus which produce *competently orchestrated* sketch scores, and sometimes even produce some or all of the full score themselves, and no ComposerHelper™ software or samples.


Thank you for saying this. I was gonna but figured “whatever”... I’m too old and tired to try to convince people of anything...


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## Ned Bouhalassa

Markus, you’re thinking of Lucas when it comes to Star Wars.


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## Doppler75

MarkusS said:


> Tom‘s name sure appeared in many big Hollywood films lately and the style is hugely dominated by fff brass and epic percussions. But I find that in the scores there are always some subtle elements that make them stand above the average epic score (the chromatic element in the Godzilla theme, the smashing sound of the percussion, an interesting string line).
> 
> If anything, it tells us what the market wants now, not necessarily what the composer or even the director wants, it’s what (is assumed) the audience is expecting to hear in such a movie and the producers will stick to it. Why take risks on such a huge budget production?
> 
> The music aims to make sure everyone gets it and relies heavily on established formulas. Probably John Williams at the time of the first Star Wars film was much more free, as they never could have expected the film would become such a hit.
> 
> It’s the same with the movie itself btw. I mean Godzilla and King Kong are not exactly new. Not exactly a risky and innovative idea. Again Star Wars was new and they took a risk at the time producing it. Now that it is a safe value, how many sequels and side stories have we seen in the same style?
> 
> Maybe at the moment the market is not open for new ideas and concepts and will rather rely on safe and established brands. So the music is simply following that same logic.
> 
> PS Steven Spielberg is definitely a genius for coming up with the Star Wars saga and even more so for turning it into a film. I wonder if in today’s market he would still get a chance to develop his ideas or if he’d get rejected in favour of established brands from 40-50 years ago.


Marcus, of course you mean George Lucas, not Steven Spielberg.

Also, Star Wars was heavily temped before Mr. Williams had even started the project in earnest. Here is one example which although obvious, Mr. Williams did amazing things with:


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## ProfoundSilence

dcoscina said:


> While I agree we should be more respectful I don't love that old strawman chestnut that people criticize because they are jealous. Maybe they just dislike this kind of music, especially if they were weened on orchestral music composed by Stravinsky, Bartok, Beethoven, Bach, Prokofiev, Mahler, etc etc etc . It's fair to assume that might be the leading motivator.


You are missing out on the entire backstory that makes it funny, Samy is being ironic


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## Samy Cheboub

Toecutter's reasoning in this thread is 100% correct. You can't expect a composer with limited skills to be able to create complex/well-orchestrated pieces, great thematic material and developement.
Limited composers have to use "tricks" : deafening noises, repetitive pattern etc. to try to compensate their limitations. It's like screaming the same words again and again to hide the fact that you can't articulate meaningful sentences.
All this is just common sense, calling a spade a spade. Nothing to do with hate or jealousy.

It's such a shame that Toecutter applies this simple reasoning selectively.


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## ProfoundSilence

Samy Cheboub said:


> Toecutter's reasoning in this thread is 100% correct. You can't expect a composer with limited skills to be able to create complex/well-orchestrated pieces, great thematic material and developement.
> Limited composers have to use "tricks" : deafening noises, repetitive pattern etc. to try to compensate their limitations. It's like screaming the same words again and again to hide the fact that you can't articulate meaningful sentences.
> All this is just common sense, calling a spade a spade. Nothing to do with hate or jealousy.
> 
> It's such a shame that Toecutter applies this simple reasoning selectively.


To be fair in 2021 there is nothing more relatable to the average inhabitant of earth than just yelling at the top of your lungs unintelligibley. 

I keep a pillow to scream into just to get through daily interaction these days

On a serious note, I think the simplicity is also respectable. Folk music is a great showcase of the beauty in simplicity.. often times just a pedal tone or drone with an a.b.a melody over it.


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## Fizzlewig

Watched Godzilla vs Kong last night. Yep, as usual the typical big impact ensemble cues were all there. But I felt the score really lacked (in my opinion) an emotional charged theme between the girl and Kong. I just didn’t find what I heard connected me in a way that moved me. I remember watching Joker (can’t remember who the composer was) but wow, it grabbed me and moved me all the way through the film. I know the two films are a thousand miles apart etc.


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## MarkusS

Well, in defence of the score, what type of music goes with a giant ape beating up a giant lizard?

[SPOILERALERT]I mean, the story is basically so here is King Kong and here is Godzilla, now they fight, oh wait they are both good guys, so now they fight together against a mechanical monster.

To me some of the true heroes of the film are the visual effects artists, their work is so impressive.

Also the sound design was really a blast to listen to.


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## Samy Cheboub

MarkusS said:


> Well, in defence of the score, what type of music goes with a giant ape beating up a giant lizard?


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## AdamKmusic

MarkusS said:


> Well, in defence of the score, what type of music goes with a giant ape beating up a giant lizard?
> 
> I mean, the story is basically so here is King Kong and here is Godzilla, now they fight, oh wait they are both good guys, so now they fight together against a mechanical monster.
> 
> To me some of the true heroes of the film are the visual effects artists, their work is so impressive.
> 
> Also the sound design was really a blast to listen to.


That’s a bit spoilery for anyone who might not’ve seen the film yet 😂


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## MarkusS

AdamKmusic said:


> That’s a bit spoilery for anyone who might not’ve seen the film yet 😂


Yes, sorry but it was also 100% predictable.😂


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## Kony

AdamKmusic said:


> That’s a bit spoilery for anyone who might not’ve seen the film yet 😂


I had this Don Cheadle reaction when I read the spoiler - "D'dude!"


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## Fizzlewig

Interestingly Tom mixed and mastered the score, according to the credits. You got to give credit to the guy, he does take the bull by it’s horns!


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## Macrawn

Taking some of those old movies and making them something new usually fails, I think mostly because people can't buy into it anymore. 

I thought this movie was pretty good though. It was serious but didn't take itself seriously at the same time which helped. It brought back the right memories from creature double feature.

I thought the score fit too. 

I can't explain why I liked this and I liked the score but I hated the new Wonder Woman movie despite liking the first Wonder Women. The idea of King Kong vs. Godzilla is kinda a stupid idea but it worked for me this time. They navigated it well and made an entertaining movie. The Stranger Thing stuff was kinda dumb but it kinda worked too in the context of a movie that didn't take itself massively seriously. Thumbs up.


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## Bernard Duc

dcoscina said:


> are you saying this because you know this for a fact? or are you speculating? Did you work in the industry back in the '70s and 80s?


As a fact, nowadays if I work on a film I have to do all the mockups for every version, or I might be doing them for other composers. But I can also write with paper and pencil and I can go several times faster this way. I mean, it's quite obvious, in one case you have all the extra steps of creating a very good performance, while in the other case you hear everything in the head and the only limit to speed is how fast you can write (and have good ideas coming of course). If I handwrite nowadays I'm always working on concert music, which takes me much longer, but I remember in college when we had recording session and I didn't need to bring a mockup, I would do fully orchestrated paper sketches because of how much faster it was.


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## dcoscina

Bernard Duc said:


> As a fact, nowadays if I work on a film I have to do all the mockups for every version, or I might be doing them for other composers. But I can also write with paper and pencil and I can go several times faster this way. I mean, it's quite obvious, in one case you have all the extra steps of creating a very good performance, while in the other case you hear everything in the head and the only limit to speed is how fast you can write (and have good ideas coming of course). If I handwrite nowadays I'm always working on concert music, which takes me much longer, but I remember in college when we had recording session and I didn't need to bring a mockup, I would do fully orchestrated paper sketches because of how much faster it was.


Like Gene Pool said, you have perhaps a bit of a limited perspective of what conditions were like then. I worked in the late 80s/90s and couldn't afford SMPTE converters and all that. So there was a lot of math to be done. Lots of spotting sessions, just as many alternates and revisions, and there were even mock-ups albeit, horrible sounding... and because samples weren't anywhere near what real instruments sounded like, a lot of changes at the recording session (being good on the fly was a mandate, not a nice add-on skill). 

The challenges today are different than back then. I'm not saying anyone working today has it easy. There are different factors that create these challenges. I think the current system renders it impossible to write like the masters, even if one has the skill/talent because of it. So please do not misinterpret my post- I'm not invalidating your perspective, but rather asking that you don't invalidate ones from folks who actually worked when things were quite a bit different. It has never been an easy gig...


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## Bernard Duc

Gene Pool said:


> You realize that no MIDI and computers means that composers had to eff around with stop watches, click track books, math, click spools, moviolas, play reductions of their cues on the piano for the director, plus which produce *competently orchestrated* sketch scores, and sometimes even produce some or all of the full score themselves, and no ComposerHelper™ software or samples.


I do realize, and that's why they were getting help from other people as well. The timing part is indeed easier nowadays (though I don't think it makes that much of a difference in the overall process), but to create a competently orchestrated sketch score is soooo much faster than creating a professional mockup. I never said easier, just faster, and I say that from experience. 

Films used to be much closer to "locked picture" when the composer started working, while nowadays composers often have to keep recomforming until the last day. 

And no, composers never had to produce the full score themselves, they had copyist for that, just like nowadays (this part is waaay faster with computers, but is not the composer's job).

Anyway, composers at the time already worked with teams, and in many cases there was non-credited additional music by other composers. My point is that composers nowadays don't have it easier than back in the times, the challenges are simply different.


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## Bernard Duc

dcoscina said:


> It has never been an easy gig...


I agree, that was my main point. It was hard back then, it is hard now, even if for other reasons. I would think that the early days of mockup and digital editing in the 90s were probably the worst. I was mostly referring at the decades before that and at bigger productions (since it's kind of the discussion in this thread) where a music editor or an assistant could help with timings.


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## dcoscina

Bernard Duc said:


> I agree, that was my main point. It was hard back then, it is hard now, even if for other reasons. I would think that the early days of mockup and digital editing in the 90s were probably the worst. I was mostly referring at the decades before that and at bigger productions (since it's kind of the discussion in this thread) where a music editor or an assistant could help with timings.


With the greats like Goldsmith and Williams, they had a terrific shorthand with their orchestrators like Herb Spencer and Arthur Morton.. They had worked so closely for so long, they were creative partners. I'm not so sure about the aspect of locked prints though. I didn't work in the 70s (I was a kid then) but perhaps some other folks here might have more first-hand knowledge of that. I know that it was still a rarity to have a lock print even in the 90s (which enabled Goldenthal to replace George Fenton's score for Interview with the Vampire in 10 days, and totally sick with the flu from his accounts).


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## dgburns

Do you get super sized, extra large popcorn when you go see a flick like this? You know, the popcorn that got mutated in a lab experiment gone horribly wrong and now has super powers and pops to the size of baseballs?

Wonder if there is a coupon for that at the cinemas?

Oh look, theres a giant Ape beating up on a giant Lizard, pass me more of that mutant popcorn ?



( humour people, sarcasm alert )


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## Bernard Duc

dcoscina said:


> With the greats like Goldsmith and Williams, they had a terrific shorthand with their orchestrators like Herb Spencer and Arthur Morton.. They had worked so closely for so long, they were creative partners. I'm not so sure about the aspect of locked prints though. I didn't work in the 70s (I was a kid then) but perhaps some other folks here might have more first-hand knowledge of that. I know that it was still a rarity to have a lock print even in the 90s (which enabled Goldenthal to replace George Fenton's score for Interview with the Vampire in 10 days, and totally sick with the flu from his accounts).


To be completely honest it's something I've always been taught, and something that makes sense to me (computers make it much easier to keep editing and to test different options), but I have no stats and obviously no personal experience. 

As for JW's sketches, you probably saw them before, I have a bunch on my computer, but it's pretty much like reading the scores except it's condensed on eight staves.


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## Consona

Toecutter said:


> I think Ludwig Göransson got the perfect balance of modern and classic. Can't praise that guy enough for not taking the easy way out (BANG BANG BRAAAAMS BANG BANG BANG HYYYYYPE BAAAAG BOOOOM BADAAAAASS)


You did not hear Tenet, did you?..


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## Patrick de Caumette

Watched it last night too.
I thought that it was awful (the movie)
But then, with such a premise, what should one expect?
King Kong-size waste of money...


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## Bernard Duc

Gene Pool said:


> I'm not trying to hurt your feelings or anything, but you're really not my authority for matters related to how things used to be and how things were and were not done in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's.
> 
> I think you might be very surprised to learn how much you don't know about what did and did not happen in the scoring and arranging profession over the course of that 50-year period.
> 
> I'll leave it at that since there's no way for me to go forward without doing what might sound like to some as "name dropping" of a few now-deceased "old timers" and the thought of it makes me cringe.
> 
> Moreover, I lack any desire to have things get all internet-y, so let's dial back on the unnecessary splainin' and call it a day.


We can all name-drop, but your right, it tends to not lead the conversation anywhere. I wasn't there and I don't claim to be anyone's authority. The closest thing I know is what I learnt from older and infinitely more experienced than me colleagues, what I read in books, and what I learnt in school. But none of that really matters. My point is that the job is not easier nowadays than it was back then, when the turnover time for scores was already often extremely short and it was already usually a team effort. Most composers nowadays are lacking the skill to work like thirty years ago, but the opposite would also have been true to a large extent.


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## dcoscina

This is a timely video


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## Uiroo

Bernard Duc said:


> We can all name-drop, but your right, it tends to not lead the conversation anywhere. I wasn't there and I don't claim to be anyone's authority. The closest thing I know is what I learnt from older and infinitely more experienced than me colleagues, what I read in books, and what I learnt in school. But none of that really matters. My point is that the job is not easier nowadays than it was back then, when the turnover time for scores was already often extremely short and it was already usually a team effort. Most composers nowadays are lacking the skill to work like thirty years ago, but the opposite would also have been true to a large extent.


As things get easier and faster through technology, expectations grow as a consequence of that.
At least, thats what it looks like to me. If anything I would say the span of time a composer is busy on a project has increased, since edits are often happening right until release. 

I'd also think that getting a cue approved was a different beast when the director didn't really hear the music until the recording session and didn't ask you to do 15 versions of the same cue?


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## Karl Feuerstake

Toecutter said:


> I specifically criticized his music and writing, not the person which I don't know him on a personal level and even said he seemed like a nice guy. You may disagree with my opinion about his music or how I put it but that's just it, my opinion about Tom's music, not Tom the person. Please don't turn this thread into another silly drama thread.
> 
> 
> It's perfectly fine to dislike something and criticize it. Film music is no exception, comes with the territory, I'm sure everyone involved is mature enough and can take it. And no you won't burn any bridges, quite the contrary, every serious composer I know values honesty. Saves a lot of money!


I think by this point, TH has a certain sound for action movies that is just recognizeable and huge. That you don't like it is fine, but it goes without saying that when someone hires TH on a film like this it's because they want that sound, and they expect it to be delivered. He's good at what he does and people want him to do more. 

Most of the composers you listed above are still alive and working. Why weren't they brought on board?


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## Consona

Man, I don't get why some people say the movie was crap.

It was one of the best blockbusters in recent memory. It had way better screenplay than I ever expected. I liked all the human storylines (the Bobby Millie Brown team was so funny, in a real funny way, not stupid cringy marvel one-liners way, and the little girl with Kong story was so heart melting) and I liked how nicely they intertwined them.
The fights were incredible! You could feel the weight and awesomeness of those creatures and all the action was so creative and well designed. The camera work, the CGI, loved it. The film was well paced even thought it could have been longer, it flew by really fast. (I heard there was a longer, and story-wise rather different!, version but WB wanted the movie to be shorter and more streamlined... eh, I hate when WB meddle with the filmmakers so much. I'd love to see the original version for sure.)

As for the score, I think JXL's getting better, he definitely tries to step up his composing.
I know this is a sci-fi film, but I don't link Godzilla or Kong with that many synths. Dunno, I have a kinda old-school mindset regarding this. I feel like synths should be in the background, more as effects than instruments, and the orchestra more upfront when you score Kong or Godzilla. That Tasman Sea fight was such a synth-fest.  I'd also change the drums sound. All the JXL's stuff starts to sound like Mad Max. I liked when he used timpani or a bass drum instead of the typical drum ensemble barrage.
I still think Desplat's theme was a great new Godzilla theme and don't know why the franchise has disregarded it.

I think GvK and Godzilla 2014 are easily the best films in the american franchise. Hope we can get more monsterverse films from Adam Wingard or Gareth Edwards.




ProfoundSilence said:


> I think it's a giant mistake to dismiss anyone even moderately successful musically. Everyone has slightly different experiences and influences - If you think you can't learn something that you can apply to your own work from someone like tom then you're doing yourself a disservice.
> 
> Beethoven made one of the most Iconic motifs with 2 different notes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If anything - the greats like williams tend to make the absolute simplest melodic ideas into something incredible - something both followable and digestible - but also interesting. Tom tends to fill the sound field with more sound design/larger sections than orchestrators typically would, but his music follows the same rules - 1-2 things at a time, clear ideas.


Yea, Williams and Beethoven used simple ideas, but they were able to build up such compositions out of them we can only dream of.
So I don't think this analogy works well...


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## dcoscina

Patrick de Caumette said:


> Watched it last night too.
> I thought that it was awful (the movie)
> But then, with such a premise, what should one expect?
> King Kong-size waste of money...


yeah, I have different feelings about it now that it's sunk in. Like its predecessors, I watched it once and have no desire to watch it again. Whereas I can re-watch Gojira or War of the Gargantuas or DaiMajin repeatedly. For whatever reason, westerners just don't get kaiju... they just don't...


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