# Legato is overrated (POLL ADDED!)



## Mike Fox (Oct 23, 2020)

GO!


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## Trash Panda (Oct 23, 2020)

Phantom Menace was the best Star Wars.


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## Michel Simons (Oct 23, 2020)

True.


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## CT (Oct 23, 2020)

It's important. But, I'm not sure it warrants being the gold standard, and I do wonder if that special premium status has led it to become overused in places where it might not even be the most musically appropriate choice.


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## Everratic (Oct 23, 2020)

I totally agree and thought about making such a thread over the past couple days. When I listen to the Abbey demos, I don’t mind the lack of legato at all. I would still like to have the option, of course. 

I notice that some people prioritize legato over tone and articulations when choosing their sample libraries, and I feel that they’re missing out on many tools that can liven their music.


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## Mackieguy (Oct 23, 2020)

I do like legatos that have a smooth short slur between notes. I think that makes a difference in realism and facilitates a better “flow” to a phrase IMHO. Not critical but definitely nice to have. I hope they add that piece.

The big seller for Spitfire Abbey Road One is the ambience. I can’t wait to mock up the Star Wars Theme and see what happens!

BTW, I’d be okay with leaving portamentos on the cutting room floor though. 😆


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## Raphioli (Oct 23, 2020)

Me personally, its a must. 
Without it, depending on the type of music you're writing, it just loses life.
But I guess it depends on what kind of music you're writing.
And also can understand legato/portamento being low on priority if you're fortunate enough to get majority of your stuff recorded live.

(I hope Spitfire would develop an Abbey Road strings library with legato because I liked the sound of the strings)


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## Sean J (Oct 23, 2020)




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## Land of Missing Parts (Oct 23, 2020)

You can send all those legato instruments you don't want to me.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 23, 2020)

They are valuable when they work in a passage, and the wrong choice when they don’t. The mistake is that presumption that with flowing line they will.


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## Virtuoso (Oct 23, 2020)

Gelato is overrated


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## shawnsingh (Oct 23, 2020)

Done without legato - a few places legato would have been nice but those problem spots really don't matter 10-ish years later. The flutes I used pre-sampled octave runs. 

I've also had a more recent example with Berlin Strings where I sketched using soft-attack sustains, and I never bothered to convert most of it to legato. Actually I am fairly certain it would sound *worse* with legato, because legato would have a note transition that is a bit too accurate for a slow swelling rubato sound - overlapping slow-attack notes actually better that way for that piece, sounds more schmaltzy like individual players transitioned notes inaccurately in an authentic way.

On the other hand - these are things that were "composed for the samples". The same tricks won't work as easily with ww or brass, especially not solo exposed. I think good legato is quite essential for a million common tropes, and I'd be disappointed to be forced to avoid those tropes just to keep a decent virtual sound.


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## Bluemount Score (Oct 24, 2020)

Also depends on the instrument. For e.g. my first violins, or a lyrical solo woodwinds or horn melody, Legato is an absolut MUST.
For low brass or double basses I often don't need it. So it is a matter of orchestration.

Also I don't own any Snare legato library.


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## Batrawi (Oct 24, 2020)

Spiccato is overrated, I also play it with the sustains patch....


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## CT (Oct 24, 2020)

Batrawi said:


> Spiccato is overrated, I also play it with the sustains patch....



Yeah same with tremolo. I just play really fast.


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## José Herring (Oct 24, 2020)

Overused rather than overrated.


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## Batrawi (Oct 24, 2020)

Mike T said:


> Yeah same with tremolo. I just play really fast.


Yeah, Sustains is the king of all articulations. Even if I need to play pizzicato, I just pull my keyboard key up instead of pressing it down


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## mybadmemory (Oct 24, 2020)

Isn’t saying legato is overrated the same as saying longs or shorts are overrated? Or flute is overrated. Or 120 bpm is overrated? 

If the music you write don’t use it, you obviously don’t need it. It just depends on the song, and how it’s written. 

For slow pad-like pieces without much melody, sure. And for fast adventurous stuff with the majority being staccato/spiccato, ok!

But if the song is using melodic lines as the hero element, I’d say a good legato is what makes it sound real to 98% of people, no?


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## FinGael (Oct 24, 2020)

A good legato is underrated.


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## RogiervG (Oct 24, 2020)

i like hamburgers


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## ReleaseCandidate (Oct 24, 2020)

Raphioli said:


> I hope Spitfire would develop an Abbey Road strings library with legato


That would bé the ground shattering collaborational epitome of overrated.


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## FinGael (Oct 24, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Isn’t saying legato is overrated the same as saying longs or shorts are overrated? Or flute is overrated. Or 120 bpm is overrated?



120 bpm is definitely overrated. I prefer 119 and 121.


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## filipjonathan (Oct 24, 2020)

You can't "overuse" legato?! It's how you play any two notes without a pause in between. You actually COULDN'T play two connected notes WITHOUT legato in the real world. So if we're talking about realism in sample libraries, of course legato is a must.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 24, 2020)

Legato is very important for legato lines.

It's not important for parts which are not legato.


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## novaburst (Oct 24, 2020)

i think it plays the biggest part of a library esp strings as people want purchase the library if the legato is bad.

So legato becomes the library's strongest selling point,


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## Arbee (Oct 24, 2020)

If you've ever produced sound with a bow or a blow, I struggle to understand how legato isn't important. Fundamental part of the repertoire, no?


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## jcrosby (Oct 24, 2020)

Round Robins are stupid.


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## Michel Simons (Oct 24, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Round Robins are stupid.



Just like their cousins, dynamic layers.


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## MartinH. (Oct 24, 2020)

Overrated, maybe. But I'd still miss them if they aren't there. If I had to pick though between legato, variable lengths of shorts, more than 2 dynamic layers, best in class tone, and mic positions, I'd pick the different lengths of shorts. I love those in Metropolis Ark 1 and I can't imagine ever being truely happy with a library that doesn't have these.


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## Living Fossil (Oct 24, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Round Robins are stupid.



Just because Robin Hood became obese at an older age you're not supposed to offend him.


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## FinGael (Oct 24, 2020)

Philosophical Stems of VI-C. Available now. Hardcover and paperback.


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## FinGael (Oct 24, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> Just because Robin Hood became obese at an older age you're not supposed to offend him.



One does not want to wake Mike Position from his sleep by mocking the poor old Robin. Things would be all over the place.


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## Mark Kouznetsov (Oct 24, 2020)

How to debate with someone who's whole argument is "Go!"?
*The Earth is flat, GO!*


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## GtrString (Oct 24, 2020)

Legatos are good for programming and editing, but not required for performance, imo. I like to play in the composition, and then edit articulations. But I would like legatos as an option when editing.


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## Mark Kouznetsov (Oct 24, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Legato is very important for legato lines.
> 
> It's not important for parts which are not legato.


Mind: *BLOWN*


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## constaneum (Oct 24, 2020)

i have to agree. lyrical lines you need legato. other than that, i think it's pretty ok to do away with legato


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## el-bo (Oct 24, 2020)

If I hired a vocalist who turned out to be unable to sing legato I'd be pretty upset. Same goes for a violinist.


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## Rex282 (Oct 24, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> GO!


Her cat go


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## ysnyvz (Oct 24, 2020)

Next thread idea for you: Samples are overrated. Don't you have pencil and paper?

Since spitfire is going back to 10 years ago but this time it's a different room, you can have same old discussion again.


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## FinGael (Oct 24, 2020)

ysnyvz said:


> Next thread idea for you: Samples are overrated. Don't you have pencil and paper?
> 
> Since spitfire is going back to 10 years ago but this time it's a different room, you can have same old discussion again.



"Available now: Erich Wolfgang Korngold Toolkit Core. Includes (only) a pencil and a paper".


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## easyrider (Oct 24, 2020)

Orchestral sample libraries are overrated....


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## FinGael (Oct 24, 2020)

easyrider said:


> Orchestral sample libraries are overrated....



True. I prefer my personal orchestra of dwarves.


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## Living Fossil (Oct 24, 2020)




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## Michael Stibor (Oct 24, 2020)

_Legato is overrated_. One of the topics at Spitfire’s recent development meetings.

Incidentally, other topics included _“Can’t we just flautando everything?”_ And _“Mic options: should we included 20 or is 16 enough?” _


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## StefVR (Oct 24, 2020)

I think the reason it’s talked about so much is not because it’s overrated but so difficult to get right. Most other articulations are kind of solved with respect to sampling methods.


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## ridgero (Oct 24, 2020)

It's overrated to the point when it's back again.


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## mojamusic (Oct 24, 2020)

I think all strings should be recorded with Bartok Pitz. All other articulations are gratuitous


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## Casiquire (Oct 24, 2020)

Virtuoso said:


> Gelato is overrated


Ok now i need to put my foot down


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## JohnG (Oct 24, 2020)

Live performers add just the right amount of legato. Even the best sampled legato can be more trouble than it's worth and it often sounds unnatural in the end anyway.

I use it; can easily live without it -- in sample-ville.


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## Tatu (Oct 24, 2020)

I'd say slurred legato (strings) is overrated and demand for a hell of a bow change legato is underrated.


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## ptram (Oct 24, 2020)

Do you see any slur, here? Yet, people have called it a masterwork for ages!

Bach's Excerpt

Paolo


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## Mike Fox (Oct 24, 2020)

easyrider said:


> Orchestral sample libraries are overrated....


This.


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## nolotrippen (Oct 24, 2020)

FinGael said:


> 120 bpm is definitely overrated. I prefer 119 and 121.


So you're kind of on the fence?


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## Mark Kouznetsov (Oct 24, 2020)

Loving all the debates, very important!
Keep 'em coming!
Oh, and also, this thread is overrated. 
*Go!*


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## Tim_Wells (Oct 24, 2020)

RogiervG said:


> i like hamburgers


A good turkey burger is underrated


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## VSriHarsha (Oct 24, 2020)

Tim_Wells said:


> A good turkey burger is underrated


I understand that but I do think Legato IS overrated, in terms of sampling but not in actuality. Your curiosity & your anxiety is one’s business.


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## Johnny (Oct 24, 2020)

mojamusic said:


> I think all strings should be recorded with Bartok Pitz. All other articulations are gratuitous


I think Bartok Pizz Legato is the only solution for next gen libraries.


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## VSriHarsha (Oct 24, 2020)

Johnny said:


> I think Bartok Pizz Legato is the only solution for next gen libraries.


Why is that?


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## MGdepp (Oct 24, 2020)

Virtuoso said:


> Gelato is overrated


It is not in the US, because of the crap they sell you as „icecream“!


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## Johnny (Oct 24, 2020)

And for my real response: yes, it is overrated. I remember thinking that I couldn't finish any of my compositions with just Symphobia 1, and I "had" to buy Symphobia 2 (for the legato) in order to achieve the melodies that I wanted to realize... And after spending $1399.99 on Symphobia 2, I delivered the music using only Symphobia 1...  Long story short, the melody sounded better without legato... Because it's all in how you write the parts, not what the transitional crossfades and recorded, Frankenstein'd legato transitions you used... End of the day, no "non" music people (muggles) care or even hear/notice what portamento slur was used in your strings... And as composers, we are most times writing music mainly to support the narrative/underscore/film trailers or licensing to sell music, that will most likely be listened to by people who are usually non-music person(s) in the end... And my Grandma (though long deceased), while living, she had never called me out once by telling me that my EWSO didn't sound realistic enough, because the legato script created by engaging the legato button within the PLAY engine, just didn't sound realistic enough for today's standards of hyper-realistic, deep sampled legato transitions... True story! Although, I think my Grandmother passed away long before EWSO was even released... But if still around? She definitely would have loved the EW Hollywood series more


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## jaketanner (Oct 24, 2020)

I have noticed an actual SOUND/TONE difference in some libraries (SFA especially) between a legato sample and a sustain patch...often times I prefer the sustain tone, but end up using the legato anyway. A library like Con Moto, I don't really notice any tone difference. Otherwise I use legato when needed, and don't when not. What's overrated is portamento if overused.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 24, 2020)

Johnny said:


> Because it's all in how you write the parts, not what the transitional crossfades and recorded, Frankenstein'd legato transitions you used



This.


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## jbuhler (Oct 24, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> I have noticed an actual SOUND/TONE difference in some libraries (SFA especially) between a legato sample and a sustain patch...often times I prefer the sustain tone, but end up using the legato anyway. A library like Con Moto, I don't really notice any tone difference. Otherwise I use legato when needed, and don't when not. What's overrated is portamento if overused.


Yes, i find this too. The legato patches sound different than the sustain patches in SCS. I don’t know if the sustains of the legatos are different samples though or have been processed differently.

Portamento is very useful, and some styles require it, but the length and amount of it is quite context dependent and so it’s often hit or miss with samples.


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## jaketanner (Oct 24, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> es, i find this too. The legato patches sound different than the sustain patches in SCS. I don’t know if the sustains of the legatos are different samples though or have been processed differently.


Exactly the library I was referring to.. LOL


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## jbuhler (Oct 24, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> Exactly the library I was referring to.. LOL


Yes, I was confirming your assessment. I guess that wasn’t obvious.


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## jaketanner (Oct 24, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> Yes, I was confirming your assessment. I guess that wasn’t obvious.


I didn't mention SCS...so that's why I was surprised...could have been a number of other SF libraries  I think Studio Strings also has this issue...sustains sound fuller than legato.


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## Chungus (Oct 24, 2020)

Violins are over-rated. String melodies should only be written for violas and celli.


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## Greg (Oct 24, 2020)

Sample library legato for sure because they record / program the glissandos too fast. Real magical legato is when its slow and emotional imo


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## ysnyvz (Oct 24, 2020)

I guess sample libraries changed definition of legato. It doesn't mean long notes. It just means connected. It's just opposite of staccato which means detached. In real world you can play 32nd, 64th,128th notes as legato. In sample world you instantly load a staccato/spiccato patch for those phrases, because you know legato patch won't sound as good. Using a legato patch doesn't make your music emotional, your composition does.


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## dylanmixer (Oct 24, 2020)

I forget what video it was, but I remember Guy Michelmore talking about this exact thing and how he thinks it's silly watching so many people argue over which library has the best legato.


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## borisb2 (Oct 24, 2020)

Virtuoso said:


> Gelato is overrated



Somebody mentioned gelato?


to be fair that would sound different without good legato-samples .. so as already mentioned it comes down to what kind of music one wants to write


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## jbuhler (Oct 24, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> I didn't mention SCS...so that's why I was surprised...could have been a number of other SF libraries  I think Studio Strings also has this issue...sustains sound fuller than legato.


Well, we’ve talked so much about the relative merits and demerits of SCS, and it’s a library where I notice this a lot, so I guess when you said SF I just assumed that’s what you were referring to!


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Oct 24, 2020)

I was surprised to find a difference in tone between sustains and legatos also (in Hollywood Strings).

I always thought sustain and legato sounded the same, but no.


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## ptram (Oct 24, 2020)

Virtuoso said:


> Gelato is overrated



Hey! Don't joke with sacred things!


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## Hendrixon (Oct 24, 2020)

Agree, legato IS overrated...




















...unless its done by Alex Wallbank or Jasper Blunk.


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## Hendrixon (Oct 24, 2020)

Btw, Alex Wallbank just tweeted this:

"After careful market research it seems legato is overrated. no wonder CSS is not selling well. effective immediately we're removing legato from CSS and obviously increasing the price to reflect that change"


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## Kevperry777 (Oct 24, 2020)

Tim_Wells said:


> A good turkey burger is underrated



My killer turkey burger recipe:

1 lb turkey
3 tbs Worcestershire sauce
1/3 cup oats
3 tbs olive oil
1/2 tsp salt
1/2 tsp pepper
1/2 tsp garlic powder
1/2 onion powder

1/3 pound patties

400 degree grill
5 minutes then flip
4 minutes then done.


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## Mike Fox (Oct 24, 2020)

SCS is definitely one of those string libs where I much prefer the sustains tone over the legato tone. The flautandos are also outstanding, and are pretty much unparallelled, imo.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 24, 2020)

My official opinion: legato is a great feature, but there are quite a few instruments without it that still kick arse.

Example: the flute in the original EWQLSO.


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## Kony (Oct 24, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> The legato patches sound different than the sustain patches in SCS.


Same with the euphonium in Loegria.


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## synergy543 (Oct 24, 2020)

Big Bob just rolled over...you guys are killing him.


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## Vovique (Oct 24, 2020)

Virtuoso said:


> Gelato is overrated
> [/QUOTE
> 
> 
> ...


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## Michael Stibor (Oct 24, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> SCS is definitely one of those string libs where I much prefer the sustains tone over the legato tone. The flautandos are also outstanding, and are pretty much unparallelled, imo.


Ah, so that’s why you think it’s overrated. You’re using the wrong company for legatos. Spitfire has that flautando thing down pat. Legatos, not so much.


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## Loïc D (Oct 25, 2020)

Moi, j’aime les gâteaux.


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## Vik (Oct 25, 2020)

Michael Stibor said:


> Spitfire has that flautando thing down pat. Legatos, not so much.


Spitfire knows how to make convincing legato transitions, and there are good examples of that both in SCS and SSS – the only two SF libraries I have (except some evo libraries). I've heard good legato transitions in other SF libraries as well, but in some of their demos and walkthroughs, I've also heard legato transitions that aren't convincing at all. Making sure that all legato transitions are good (between all relevant notes, in all the dynamic levels, and all vibrato levels) must take a lot of time, and that's probably the reason that good legato transitions sometimes are missing in some of their (and others') string libraries.


Greg said:


> Sample library legato for sure because they record / program the glissandos too fast. Real magical legato is when its slow and emotional imo


The problem with both slow and fast transitions between two pitches is that they will sound wrong when you don't need them. Additionally, there are a few examples in otherwise good libraries where a glide between two notes isn't only too slow, it's also too loud.


ysnyvz said:


> It doesn't mean long notes. It just means connected.


Yes, and staccato doesn't mean short either, it means that the notes are detached/separated from each other.

Hopefully, there will be a much better UI for note transitions in future string libraries, which allows us more control of not only transition speed and loudness, but also of what kind of transition/glide we want between the notes.







Virtuoso said:


> Gelato is overrated


That's true for Mikado as well


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## gyprock (Oct 25, 2020)

My wife snores mainly staccato and pizzicato. I wish she could add legato.


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## Vik (Oct 25, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> I have noticed an actual SOUND/TONE difference in some libraries (SFA especially) between a legato sample and a sustain patch...often times I prefer the sustain tone, but end up using the legato anyway


True, and I'm glad there is a difference in tone between the two. In a legato patch, which ideally has smooth transitions between two samples, each of the samples has to be a lot more equal to each other than in long non-legato notes, otherwise the transitions could easily sound rather bumpy. There's room for for more movement and variation in, say, four seconds long notes that aren't meant to be transitioned into another sample – and the transition could start anywhere in that 4 second long timeline. There's also difference between the note attacks in various versions of the same samples – IIRR; Mural had slower attacks than SSS; which were very handy sometimes, but which made them less useful for faster playing.


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## Mike Fox (Oct 25, 2020)

Michael Stibor said:


> Ah, so that’s why you think it’s overrated. You’re using the wrong company for legatos. Spitfire has that flautando thing down pat. Legatos, not so much.


That isn't why.


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## ScarletJerry (Oct 25, 2020)

Trust me, when you are talking about music, many things are overrated, but they rarely end in ‘o’ unless you are taking about disco.

Scarlet Jerry


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## Casiquire (Oct 25, 2020)

Chungus said:


> Violins are over-rated. String melodies should only be written for violas and celli.


Honestly though i don't totally disagree



Vik said:


> The problem with both slow and fast transitions between two pitches is that they will sound wrong when you don't need them.


One more point for LASS! The legato speed knob is fantastic


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## Paul Cardon (Oct 25, 2020)

borisb2 said:


> Somebody mentioned gelato?
> 
> 
> to be fair that would sound different without good legato-samples .. so as already mentioned it comes down to what kind of music one wants to write



UGH, I hate CSS for having such a perfect legato for stuff like this but in such a strange room. Works amazingly for this as a unified studio sound, but so weird to mix Trackdown's mid-heavy dense sound with most other libraries, especially the bigger spaces.


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## Kony (Oct 25, 2020)

Casiquire said:


> One more point for LASS! The legato speed knob is fantastic


Love the legato in LASS - it's such a versatile and under-rated library IMO.


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## Pianolando (Oct 25, 2020)

With strings and woodwinds:

Things I have use for 90% of the time:
-Legato
- 1-2really good sounding mic positions.
-Multiple dynamic layers.

Things I have use for 9% of the time:
-Tremolo

Things I have use for 1% of the time:
-Shorts
-Round robins

Things I never have use for:
- 3 or more esoteric mic positions that phase and always sound worse than my reverb


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## Fredeke (Oct 26, 2020)

gyprock said:


> My wife snores mainly staccato and pizzicato. I wish she could add legato.


Cats purr in legato. I know few other animals that can do that.


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## borisb2 (Oct 26, 2020)

Casiquire said:


> One more point for LASS! The legato speed knob is fantastic


Wait, legato speed knob in LASS? Did I miss that? .. do you mean the legato-tweak page?

EDIT: sorry, guess you meant CC #83? For a moment I thought there is a knob somewhere in the UI which I missed


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## Casiquire (Oct 26, 2020)

borisb2 said:


> Wait, legato speed knob in LASS? Did I miss that? .. do you mean the legato-tweak page?
> 
> EDIT: sorry, guess you meant CC #83? For a moment I thought there is a knob somewhere in the UI which I missed


Right, it's not in the UI. But it allows me to fit the port and gliss transitions into any context


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## Beans (Oct 26, 2020)

What is the current rating, and what would you say is appropriate?


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## Fry777 (Dec 9, 2020)

*VI-C* : "Legato is overrated"



*John Williams* : wants to "legato-ify" the trumpets


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## Eptesicus (Dec 9, 2020)

I disagree to a certain extent. How developers get notes that should be connected to sound connected is one of the most important things to get right in terms of realism and expression. If there is one immediate tell that something is mocked up with samples, it is dodgy legato/connections between notes.

In fact, we have gazillions of well recorded unconnected notes now.

I really dig all the developers attempting new techniques to take things further (like performance samples and their active bow/repetition sampling techniques etc)

Perhaps "legato" is not the be all and end all, but the pursuit of making all these unconnected wav files of notes sound like a connected performance is important. I think legato just gets talked about a lot, because it is one of the biggest and most obvious ways to tell if something is sampled.


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## GNP (Dec 9, 2020)

Eptesicus said:


> I disagree to a certain extent. How developers get notes that should be connected to sound connected is one of the most important things to get right in terms of realism and expression. If there is one immediate tell that something is mocked up with samples, it is dodgy legato/connections between notes.
> 
> In fact, we have gazillions of well recorded unconnected notes now.
> 
> ...



True. For me, if I'm in a hurry, I'd rather use a normal long expressivo than a legato patch, and just overlap the end parts of one note to the start parts of the next one. That usually ends up sounding nicer than a dodgy legato patch itself.......


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## Symfoniq (Dec 9, 2020)

Once Spitfire gets good at legato, it will no longer be overrated, but rather the most important thing ever.

Until then, though, yeah, nobody really needs legato.

In the meantime, can I offer you 128 microphone positions?


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## Vardaro (Dec 9, 2020)

There is practicing musicians' legato, and there is VI legato!

Violinists call "legato" several notes under one bow stroke, where the fingers plop and hop audibly; when the hand has to move along the string, we try to _hide _the slithering transitions most of the time. Our "détaché" is simply rebowed strokes on each note, and can be relatively smooth.

I cannot speak for wind players..

Legato is _not _synonimous with Portamento, though they can co-habit! Portamento should be used no more than twice a week..


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## philtsai (Dec 9, 2020)

Final Fantasy 13 is the best FF game.


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## Johnny (Dec 9, 2020)

philtsai said:


> Final Fantasy 13 is the best FF game.


+ one on that! (Soundtrack too!)


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## spacepluk (Dec 9, 2020)

philtsai said:


> Final Fantasy 13 is the best FF game.



But it can’t compare to FFF games


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## Petrucci (Dec 9, 2020)

Johnny said:


> + one on that! (Soundtrack too!)


But FF XII Soundtrack is much better as well as the game lol)) (no humour here though)


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## Beans (Dec 9, 2020)

I'll reach for a legato patch (when I otherwise don't necessarily need one) when a release overstays its welcome on a sustain patch. That's what I struggled with a bit on AROOF when I was giving it a browse.


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## Johnny (Dec 10, 2020)

Petrucci said:


> But FF XII Soundtrack is much better as well as the game lol)) (no humour here though)


Very good yes, props to the pianist that had to perform these on the piano collections, they killed it!


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## Mike Fox (Dec 10, 2020)

philtsai said:


> Final Fantasy 13 is the best FF game.


This was my real intent for creating this thread.


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## Trash Panda (Dec 10, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> This was my real intent for creating this thread.


To prompt wildly unpopular and possibly trollish opinions?


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## Tremendouz (Dec 10, 2020)

The only people who say legato is overrated are those who got tricked by the marketing tactics and cool demo tracks to buy yet another ensemble library without legato. Bonus points if it doesn't have violins, violas etc. but instead "high strings" and "low strings" and it tries to present that as a plus instead of a limiting factor.

I'm only 45.3% joking here!


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## mojamusic (Dec 10, 2020)

shawnsingh said:


> Done without legato - a few places legato would have been nice but those problem spots really don't matter 10-ish years later. The flutes I used pre-sampled octave runs.
> 
> I've also had a more recent example with Berlin Strings where I sketched using soft-attack sustains, and I never bothered to convert most of it to legato. Actually I am fairly certain it would sound *worse* with legato, because legato would have a note transition that is a bit too accurate for a slow swelling rubato sound - overlapping slow-attack notes actually better that way for that piece, sounds more schmaltzy like individual players transitioned notes inaccurately in an authentic way.
> 
> On the other hand - these are things that were "composed for the samples". The same tricks won't work as easily with ww or brass, especially not solo exposed. I think good legato is quite essential for a million common tropes, and I'd be disappointed to be forced to avoid those tropes just to keep a decent virtual sound.




Beautiful arrangement. One thing though... it would benefit from some legato string articulations


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## mojamusic (Dec 10, 2020)

Overrated or over-emphasized. I might agree. However, "Legato" samples (articulations) are tools meant to add certain realism with sampled instruments. It's a tool.

So the question is "does it add realism" or not? Can anyone post side-by- side of the same line played by a"real" violin verses a non-legato sample then a legato sample?


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## RSK (Dec 10, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> SCS is definitely one of those string libs where I much prefer the sustains tone over the legato tone. The flautandos are also outstanding, and are pretty much unparallelled, imo.


Flautando is the only artic that matters. Just ask Christian.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 10, 2020)

mojamusic said:


> Overrated or over-emphasized. I might agree. However, "Legato" samples (articulations) are tools meant to add certain realism with sampled instruments. It's a tool.
> 
> So the question is "does it add realism" or not? Can anyone post side-by- side of the same line played by a"real" violin verses a non-legato sample then a legato sample?




It depends on the _specific_ line. and the _specific_ library There is no "legato will always sound better" or "sustain will always sound better."

People want to codify the uncodifiable. You use your ears and make your choice and for heaven's sake, don't let it be undermined by what a bunch of people on a forum say.


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## dgburns (Dec 10, 2020)

Actually..... legaaaato is pretty useful when it’s well implemented.

I’m looking at you Lass, EWHW brass ( especially those french horns), Sample modelling


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## Vardaro (Dec 10, 2020)

Can I add that when classical string players deliberately slow down their finger-lifts and finger-falls under a long bow stroke, there is a sort off fuzz between the notes, but _not_ a portamento.
Likewise, when the hand shifts along the string, we _usuall_y half lift the finger to avoid hearing the portamento.
Permitted slides are often into the new note, starting halfway up (the Gypsy, or Heifetz slide),
or, sliding just out of the first note and "popping" onto the next witgh a new finger (the Classical slide).
The latter seems absent from all (?) string VI's. Folks don't listen closely enough to the originals....


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## Virtual Virgin (Dec 10, 2020)

If you have yet to notice the difference between legato and non-legato passages in music...


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## MGdepp (Dec 10, 2020)

Trash Panda said:


> Phantom Menace was the best Star Wars.


Nope! Attack of the close was ... by far!!!


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## robgb (Dec 10, 2020)

A good legato is gold. But I look at the attention it gets as more of a marketing tool for library developers. Personally, I find myself rarely using legato, but when I need it, it's nice to have the gold.


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## Wally Garten (Dec 10, 2020)

Virtuoso said:


> Gelato is overrated



True facts.


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## robgb (Dec 10, 2020)

Virtuoso said:


> Gelato is overrated


Clearly you've never had Salted Caramel gelato.


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## ptram (Dec 10, 2020)

_"His rebus cognitis Caesar Labienum cum cohortibus sex subsidio laborantibus mittit…"_

What would have done, Julius Caesar, without his _legato_?

Paolo


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## thereus (Dec 11, 2020)

Too many synth players in here who've never played an actual orchestral instrument.


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## TomaeusD (Dec 11, 2020)

thereus said:


> Too many synth players in here who've never played an actual orchestral instrument.







__





Orchestral enhancement - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org







Spoiler



*Synthesizers*
Synthesizers are used in many musical theatre productions, either to create new, modern synthesizer tones, or to simulate orchestral instruments with sampled or synthesized tones. The most common solution used has been to place one or more synthesizer players in the orchestra, each covering multiple parts.

Although the use of synthesizer performers to substitute for orchestral instruments is a more flexible approach than using prerecorded music (in that the synthesizer players can follow the tempo of the conductor), high-quality synthesizers and samples must be used to obtain a fairly convincing tone. With an inexpensive synthesizer, the orchestral instrument sounds are often thin-sounding and artificial.



...I swear I didn't edit this.


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## thereus (Dec 11, 2020)

TomaeusD said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## thereus (Dec 11, 2020)

Still misses the point that the difference between a note triggered on a percussion instrument like a synth and a note played by a wind, brass or string instrumentalist is that the synthesized note is more or less completely determined before it is sounded whereas the note played by the orchestral instruments is defined moment to moment throughout it's duration using the interpretative skill of the musician and is infinitely variable in ways that samples can never capture. As a result of this, the player of the latter does not think in notes at all but in the subtle meaning of each phrase and how it fits into its musical environment. A synth or a sampler does not let you do that on the fly. That is why virtual instruments can only ever make mock-ups instead of performances.

TLDR: Sampled legato? That barely scratches the surface...


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## spacepluk (Dec 11, 2020)

That might be true for really simple synthesizers but it’s not for most of the popular ones. You can definitely get expressive performances out of synths with the appropriate controllers but they are their own thing.


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## thereus (Dec 11, 2020)

spacepluk said:


> That might be true for really simple synthesizers but it’s not for most of the popular ones. You can definitely get expressive performances out of synths with the appropriate controllers but they are their own thing.



...but how many variables can you control at once in real time, moment by moment, all at the same time? A cellist, for instance has scores of them...


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## KallumS (Dec 11, 2020)




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## spacepluk (Dec 11, 2020)

It can be quite a few especially if you use mpe and some extras like a breath controller or an expression pedal. It’s obviously less than actual physical tactile control over a string but it’s way more than a predetermined one-shot.


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## Pianolando (Dec 11, 2020)

And more importantly: afterward you can edit the MIDI and program many parameters to change at any given time. Very few VIs are able to produce their best and most realistic sound when played live, rather they need hours of “massaging” a take to sound perfect.


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## dpasdernick (Dec 11, 2020)

Who’s Legato and why are we picking on him?


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## shawnsingh (Dec 11, 2020)

dpasdernick said:


> Who’s Legato and why are we picking on him?



Hangs out with misfits Pizzicato and Col Legno, but wishes he could be more like popular kids like Flautando


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## Symfoniq (Dec 11, 2020)

dpasdernick said:


> Who’s Legato and why are we picking on him?



I thought Pizzicato was the guy we picked on?


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## Trash Panda (Dec 11, 2020)

dpasdernick said:


> Who’s Legato and why are we picking on him?


Anime villain who hangs out with Midvalley the Hornfreak.


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## chibear (Dec 11, 2020)

Vardaro said:


> There is practicing musicians' legato, and there is VI legato!
> 
> Violinists call "legato" several notes under one bow stroke, where the fingers plop and hop audibly; when the hand has to move along the string, we try to _hide _the slithering transitions most of the time. Our "détaché" is simply rebowed strokes on each note, and can be relatively smooth.
> 
> I cannot speak for wind players..



I can speak for brass players 
When brass players are asked for legato, they will automatically play a slur that is slightly broken by a soft tongue. If you want a VI "legato" you would write the notes slurred. Remember it's MIDI that "borrowed" terms from traditional music and reused them for the purpose of MIDI, Thus the confusion. To further complicate matters, the silky smooth legato that is often written may under certain circumstances be impossible to duplicate on real instruments. All it takes is a tight valve to add a bump that would be considered no longer "legato". Also volume level and register will effect the possibility.

Just before I retired I played a session for a (obviously MIDI) composer who ranted and raved that he wanted "more legato". When I suggested to my section to try slurring the passage, he jumped in and said "No, I don't want slurs, I want More Legato". Before the next take I quietly passed it down to the section to slur the passage and he loved it. If you're going to work with live musicians, maybe learn their terms.

To the OP, a good legato can enhance a library, a bad one destroy it. I very often turn legato on and off in a passage to achieve the effect I'm after. Sometimes it's more trouble than it's worth. Sometimes it's worth every penny just to get that smooth interval I'm looking for.


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## Mike Fox (Dec 11, 2020)

thereus said:


> Too many synth players in here who've never played an actual orchestral instrument.


Well, this is V(irtual) I(nstrument) Control.


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## Mike Fox (Dec 11, 2020)

shawnsingh said:


> Hangs out with misfits Pizzicato and Col Legno, but wishes he could be more like popular kids like Flautando


Flautando is just a hipster.


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## anjwilson (Dec 11, 2020)

Vardaro said:


> sliding just out of the first note and "popping" onto the next witgh a new finger (the Classical slide).
> The latter seems absent from all (?) string VI's. Folks don't listen closely enough to the originals....


Yes, so many VI portamenti that almost sound like glissandi. Drives me nuts.


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## Babe (Dec 12, 2020)

Vardaro said:


> Can I add that when classical string players deliberately slow down their finger-lifts and finger-falls under a long bow stroke, there is a sort off fuzz between the notes, but _not_ a portamento.
> Likewise, when the hand shifts along the string, we _usuall_y half lift the finger to avoid hearing the portamento.
> Permitted slides are often into the new note, starting halfway up (the Gypsy, or Heifetz slide),
> or, sliding just out of the first note and "popping" onto the next witgh a new finger (the Classical slide).
> The latter seems absent from all (?) string VI's. Folks don't listen closely enough to the originals....



You mention Heifetz. Why back when, I didn't like listening to Heifetz, too much portamento I thought. Give me Menuhin any day. Since the old days, Pearlman is the one.


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## Babe (Dec 12, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> Flautando is just a hipster.


Legato is one smooth character with the women. Sometimes, flautando strings along. Women hate staccatos and pizzicatos, especially Bartok pizz.


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## Alex Niedt (Dec 12, 2020)

The way notes travel from one to the next in melodic content cannot possibly be rated highly enough. Style of music obviously factors into this a lot, but in styles where it really matters, it matters more than just about anything else. Imagine an operatic voice that couldn't fluidly connect two notes... 😆


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 12, 2020)

Rating is overrated.


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## ScarletJerry (Dec 13, 2020)

Sine and sawtooth waves are overrated.


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## KEM (Dec 13, 2020)

Honestly I agree, every sample library company makes their legatos a big selling point and I just don't really care, unless I'm trying to write really whimsical, fast moving lines (which is basically never because it's not my style) regular longs do everything I need them. Of course it's better to have good legatos than bad ones, but I don't really ever use them to begin with.


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## Virtual Virgin (Dec 13, 2020)

KEM said:


> Honestly I agree, every sample library company makes their legatos a big selling point and I just don't really care, unless I'm trying to write really whimsical, fast moving lines (which is basically never because it's not my style) regular longs do everything I need them. Of course it's better to have good legatos than bad ones, but I don't really ever use them to begin with.



I would suggest talking to someone who actually plays an orchestral instrument.


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## KEM (Dec 13, 2020)

Virtual Virgin said:


> I would suggest talking to someone who actually plays an orchestral instrument.



I do, I’m just saying that in the context of sample libraries it doesn’t mean much to me.


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## MDMullins (Dec 14, 2020)

Legato is essential to realistic orchestral music. I'm currently orchestrating a piece for a church service with a small 9-piece ensemble. It's important to mock it up to see how it's going to be when we get it on its feet. There is no way to get realistic solo, legato string lines without a true legato in the library. BBCSO is fantastic, by the way, now that I've grocked it.


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## Akarin (Dec 14, 2020)

This thread is fantastic. I love it and have absolutely nothing to add to it.


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## FinGael (Dec 14, 2020)

Akarin said:


> This thread is fantastic. I love it and have absolutely nothing to add to it.


You just did.


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## Petrucci (Dec 14, 2020)

I think that good legatos always bring more flavour to the arrangement whether it's ensembles or solos. I adore Hollywood Strings for those legatos.


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## rocking.xmas.man (Dec 15, 2020)

what legato is in question?
the musical term legato or the technical term true legato which is just a way of delivering sample-connecting samples - no matter if that is portamento, slur or detache


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## Wally Garten (Dec 15, 2020)

You guys, a dirty little secret. Even some of the supposedly "high end" libraries don't have a working true legato. Example: a while back I purchased Spitfire Ricotti Mallets. Great tone, nice selection of instruments -- and _no legato samples_. There's an _audible pause_ between notes. I mean, you learn how to work around it, but....


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## Virtual Virgin (Dec 15, 2020)

Wally Garten said:


> You guys, a dirty little secret. Even some of the supposedly "high end" libraries don't have a working true legato. Example: a while back I purchased Spitfire Ricotti Mallets. Great tone, nice selection of instruments -- and _no legato samples_. There's an _audible pause_ between notes. I mean, you learn how to work around it, but....



You apparently do not know how legato playing is achieved on different instruments.


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## Wally Garten (Dec 15, 2020)

Virtual Virgin said:


> You apparently do not know how legato playing is achieved on different instruments.



You apparently don't know what jokes are.


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## FinGael (Dec 15, 2020)

This thread has inspired me to develop a yoga pose (asana) called Leg(s)-at-O. Heck, I don't even normally do yoga.


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## Kent (Dec 15, 2020)

I think he was a great composer


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## Virtual Virgin (Dec 15, 2020)

Wally Garten said:


> You apparently don't know what jokes are.


Given the ambient temperature in here it seemed par for the course.


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## Wally Garten (Dec 15, 2020)

Virtual Virgin said:


> Given the ambient temperature in here it seemed par for the course.



Fair enough!


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## AndyP (Dec 15, 2020)

No music without Gelato!


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## Vardaro (Dec 23, 2020)

I answered "What's Legato?" : as I keep saying, it is _not_ the same as audible portamento..

"Slur" shouldn't mean "slurp".


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