# How to promote original orchestral-style music?



## MarcusMaximus (Jul 6, 2018)

I write music which is neither mainstream nor for any media, i.e. standalone music for release in its own right. I make a living from something else so I can afford to write whatever I want rather than having to fit in with any particular programme. This is my preference though of course I have total respect for those who work more directly in the industry and write for film, TV etc. I have written a bit for theatre though. 

Having said that, I need to find ways to get my music out into the world more effectively. I have recently released an EP of an orchestral suite which is up on Bandcamp, Amazon, Spotify etc. etc. At the moment it is sitting there doing nothing so I wonder what would help in terms of marketing etc.? I am not much of a business person and more interested in the creative side of things but I know it is important to work on promotion otherwise nobody knows you exist! I'm not looking for 'success' as such but I do want to get the music heard and hopefully enjoyed by some people. I have done some research and know about finding a niche audience etc. but I've honestly no idea how to go about doing that effectively, nor any of the other promotional tasks.

There are some resources and info out there but I've yet to come across anything that is geared more towards orchestral music, though the stuff I write mixes that with other sounds and instruments as well. Kind of a mix of modern classical, jazz, prog rock (sorry!) and electronic. I'm a guitarist so of course that features as well.

So would anyone have any suggestions or pointers to good resources that could help me to learn more about this side of things? Like I imagine a lot of composers feel I tend to be shy of getting out into the marketplace but I know it has to be done..

Thanks!


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## Parsifal666 (Jul 6, 2018)

MarcusMaximus said:


> There are some resources and info out there but I've yet to come across anything that is geared more towards orchestral music, though the stuff I write mixes that with other sounds and instruments as well. Kind of a mix of modern classical, jazz, prog rock (sorry!) and electronic. I'm a guitarist so of course that features as well.
> 
> So would anyone have any suggestions or pointers to good resources that could help me to learn more about this side of things? Like I imagine a lot of composers feel I tend to be shy of getting out into the marketplace but I know it has to be done..
> 
> Thanks!



My advice would be to continue studying and writing as much as possible, and perhaps hire someone in the future to deal with it. There's an astonishingly massive amount of music out there (most of it from fair to mediocre), and I will be completely forthright with you: without representation or a super lucky break (the latter was my own good fortune) what you will put out will largely be ignored. No matter how good it is. I'm dead serious.

If you really want to get your music out there and aren't primarily concerned with writing for yourself (btw, the latter has absolutely nothing wrong with it, glorified hobbies are fun and don't hurt anybody) then you need representation. Check deep into some agencies.

It just depends, if you really believe in what you're doing; that it's worth forking extra cash over because you care about others' opinions, then an agent can be a huge help.

Early on I went through all the social media outlets and I had a depressingly small listenership...even though my colleagues told me I was writing very well. I worked at least as hard getting the music out there as I did making it. The rewards were minimal. Then my lucky break came along, and I wish that kind of thing on everyone here.


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## Dear Villain (Jul 6, 2018)

I'm in the exact same boat...same style music...everything. You'll hear things like "build a community", "offer a service to others, such as providing educational youtube videos, etc." This is all sound advice, but if you start going down that rabbit hole, you'll spend far more time actually doing everything but creating music. This is the catch 22 of it all. You want your music heard, and you don't even need to rely on it for money, but when you start trying to carve out that niche and grow an audience, you'll realize quickly that you spend way too much time making videos, reading about the latest buzzwords/keywords, metadata, trending topics, etc. etc. etc. And after you try all that, there's a good chance you won't have a bigger audience, because the original product (your music) is as you said, not mainstream. 

I have another business where I can sell product in my sleep without so much as any marketing, because there's a special niche demand for it and people find me. Then, I can go bonkers trying to sell/promote my music, and never do I get more than a few comments and/or subscribes. It may not seem fair, but in this age of endless content and talented people everywhere, you really have to have a whole lot of perseverance, timing, luck, know-how, contacts, etc.

Eventually, you'll learn to cherish those few that actually dig your stuff, even if you never break out and reach the masses. At least that's how I try to frame it 

Cheers!
Dave


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## Parsifal666 (Jul 6, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> in this age of endless content and talented people everywhere]
> Dave



I agree so much with your post, Dave. Except this. This is an age of endless content provided by people who couldn't write past a 16 bar loop if you paid them, and couldn't spell modulation. Today anybody can scoop some drones and synth presets and call themselves composers.

Yours was a very kind to say, but most music today really does sound the same, my friend. Everybody's copying each other. And these fair-to-mediocres overwhelm the people whom write expressive (aka not especially popular) music. You either go the Pop route (and hella good luck with that without knowing somebody or having a killer agent) or just do it because you love it.

The latter truly is far more fulfilling, especially for those whom value personal expression above all. It's also a great way to not make any money.


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## J-M (Jul 6, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I agree so much with your post, Dave. Except this. This is an age of endless content provided by people who couldn't write past an 16 bar loop if you paid them, and couldn't spell modulation. Today anybody can scoop some drones and synth presets and call themselves composers.



Reminds me of this guy I know who takes loops from Serum, mashes them together and calls the end results songs (which end up sounding terrible). Gathers nice amounts of channel views on Youtube...


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## MarcusMaximus (Jul 6, 2018)

Many thanks for your replies guys. Very late at night here so I will respond properly tomorrow.


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## Parsifal666 (Jul 6, 2018)

MrLinssi said:


> Reminds me of this guy I know who takes loops from Serum, mashes them together and calls the end results songs (which end up sounding terrible). Gathers nice amounts of channel views on Youtube...



This happens so much. :(

It could be argued that when _anyone_ can be a composer through such soul-sucking means, then what exactly does composer _mean_?

When I think composer I think JS Bach, Beethoven, Mahler, Schoenberg (shoot, throw folks like Jerry Goldsmith in there).

A excess of 16 bar loops that don't even attempt to break out of the key they're in, whether drone or dance, a synth preset layered with others plus a preset drum machine...that could be arguably the most distinctive music of this decade, perhaps even this century. Distinctive in the lowest-of-the-low common denominator MacMusic ethos.


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## Dear Villain (Jul 6, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> This happens so much. :(
> 
> It could be argued that when _anyone_ can be a composer through such soul-sucking means, then what exactly does composer _mean_?
> 
> ...



Be careful, Parsifal...there are those on this forum that will jump in and start calling you a musical snob (I know, some "strongly opinionated" guy did that to me when expressing similar sentiments)

All the best,
Dave


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## Parsifal666 (Jul 6, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> Be careful, Parsifal...there are those on this forum that will jump in and start calling you a musical snob (I know, some "strongly opinionated" guy did that to me when expressing similar sentiments)
> 
> All the best,
> Dave



I'm too old and learned to care, my friend.


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## novicecomposer (Jul 6, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> Then my lucky break came along



Can you elaborate on how it came along and what it was if that's something you can talk more about?


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## Parsifal666 (Jul 6, 2018)

novicecomposer said:


> Can you elaborate on how it came along and what it was if that's something you can talk more about?



I started out in Rock/Metal and (back in the Stone Age) I stumbled upon a record dealer in Germany who knew and (after listening to a couple of tune) was willing to help put me in touch with a couple of old and pretty well known names in the goofily misnomered "neoclassical rock/metal" genre (btw it's all Pop, folks).

Again, this is back when the Internet was much younger, the more "elite" musicians were so much harder to get in touch with...it's hard to describe to young people. Our having made those contacts changed the whole scheme for me; suddenly I was able to pay one or two big bills a month with my music, and other folks in different musical realms were paying attention (well, more than before, which was none lol!). These days though I'm down to just-barely-paying rent with it (I have a part time job to fill in the spaces), music still adds significantly to my income.

No one has more gratitude for this luck than I do, it changed everything. And again, I wish something even better would happen to everyone here, so you'd all see your dreams come true.


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## CGR (Jul 6, 2018)

MrLinssi said:


> Reminds me of this guy I know who takes loops from Serum, mashes them together and calls the end results songs (which end up sounding terrible). Gathers nice amounts of channel views on Youtube...


Hmmm . . . yes, bad taste is rife around the world


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## Desire Inspires (Jul 6, 2018)

MarcusMaximus said:


> I write music which is neither mainstream nor for any media, i.e. standalone music for release in its own right.



If that is the case, simply make a Soundcloud page and allow your music to be downloaded for free.

There are 7 billion people in the world. Somebosy will like your music and listen to it. You will not get rich, famous, or even appreciated. But you need to release it anyway.

Someone will love it and listen to it a lot. So just put out there and don't aim to get any praise or recognition from it. Many composers got "famous" after they died.


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## Desire Inspires (Jul 6, 2018)

MrLinssi said:


> Reminds me of this guy I know who takes loops from Serum, mashes them together and calls the end results songs (which end up sounding terrible). Gathers nice amounts of channel views on Youtube...



That sounds like something that I should start doing.


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## novicecomposer (Jul 6, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> Our having made those contacts changed the whole scheme for me; suddenly I was able to pay one or two big bills


I don't think that was sheer luck. You should have musical talent and your music should be good otherwise you won't still take off even when the luck finally hits you.

It reminds me of a story of Harry Gregson-Williams who struggled to pay his bills until he met Hans Zimmer and started working on film music with the help of him.


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## MarcusMaximus (Jul 7, 2018)

Many thanks again folks for your input. I'll pick up on some points though it's all helpful. Apologies for the long post but once I get started..

Parsifal, a lot to ponder there. I have already put a lot of time into studying the craft, though of course the learning never stops. I don't have a lot of time or energy to put into the promotion side of things so perhaps I could consider getting someone else to do that. Where to find a suitable agency or whatever is the thing though. I agree with what you say about how much music is out there and the minimal likelihood of getting noticed etc. I do think there is a lot of mediocre and worse stuff as you say but I also think there genuinely are a lot of talented people too, many copying each other and trying to fit in with current styles yes but I see no shortage of real talent amongst the vast ocean of creatives the internet has given a place to/for. Like you I started out way before all that happened but unlike you, I have yet to get that lucky break! It's great that that happened for you and thank you for wishing it on others and for explaining it here.

Dave, good to hear from such a like-minded musician. Your description of the process of trying to find and target that niche audience fits with my own experience when I did promote a CD I released some years ago. I gave it everything and despite getting some good reviews, radio plays and various other features the results were minimal in terms of real exposure and sales. This also fits with what you describe Parsifal before your break came along. I could certainly put some creative thought into linking the music with my other profession and doing a blog or videos etc. etc. but the truth is I already have limited time to write and play music, especially given the paid work I also have to do. And the selling methods that most people recommend such as email and social media campaigns etc. frankly turn my blood cold. Perhaps that's a generational thing but my old-school mindset doesn't really want to go there at all if I can avoid it.. Plus I'm not convinced the returns would be worth all that time and work. There are just so many people doing the same things and it's all become kinda transparent these days. I _hate _it when I get those obviously hard-selling emails with the same promises and bonuses etc. etc.

Now I'm sounding like a snob. Not that you do Parsifal, not in the least. I really get where you're coming from in fact.

I did do some gigs with the material on the CD, which is definitely a way to go in the 'real world' but the stuff I'm writing these days doesn't really lend itself to performance - well it does but only if I could hire or convince an orchestra to play it! Fat chance. I am considering approaching a dance company with my suite though as I think it would lend itself well to movement (with the recording played in the background) but that's another story.

Desire Inspires, yes once again I agree with you in principle, also with what you've said about this in another similar thread (hope it's ok to refer to that). However I think there's a balance to be struck between just putting it out there and letting people find it which I have already done and trying to build an active campaign. There is simply so much music out there that people who might be interested and like it have almost no chance of finding little old me amongst the millions of others offering broadly similar material. So I feel it is not enough to release it and just sit back - something has to be done to draw some interest. This isn't about ego, fame etc. but somehow completing the natural circle where art is created primarily as an act of expression but also to communicate something of the soul to others. At least that's how I see it but I'm something of a romantic! As you say Dave, cherishing those that actually dig the stuff but for that to happen at all it seems important to at least let those that might dig it know it exists!

So I'm looking for some sort of relationship with those people, that famous "niche audience", who might like what I am writing enough to give it their time. Not being 'mainstream' and not meaning this in any way apart from the fact of it, my music probably needs to be listened to intentionally in order to appreciate it because it may not have as much initial appeal as a lot of stuff out there. So a casual listener who vaguely likes orchestral stuff might well pass it by in preference for some more obvious 'epic-trailer' type stuff that hits them straight away. On the other hand I do believe that there is an audience out there who could well respond positively once they get to know it. The mastering engineer I used for the suite paid me a great compliment by saying that he had enjoyed working on it and that he listened to it full blast at the end of his working day. That delighted me more than getting 2000 meaningless momentary likes on a YouTube channel. I think..


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## midi-et-quart (Jul 7, 2018)

Hi Marcus, I advise you to contact the "EpicMusicWorld" channel on Youtube, which doesn't only feature epic bombastic kind of music. Lots of tracks there are also pretty ambient, melodious or lyrical. 

The owner of the channel is quite responsive on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EpicMusicWorld2

I think that with more than 800 000 subscribers it's worth a try...


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## MarcusMaximus (Jul 7, 2018)

I would say that there are still plenty of talented (not necessarily 'great') composers around but they get lost in a sea of averageness and normative musical styles and expectations that allow very little room for individuality or difference. People want more of the quick hit, the immediate impact, the recognisable and the familiar. Even in chart music when I was growing up there was much more novelty and experimentation than I hear today where everything sounds more or less the same across a few tried, tested and accepted genres. It's part of the great dumbing down that's happening everywhere it seems where most people don't seem to want to work at or reflect on things, they want immediate results and gratification. I could go on about this more but I'll refrain. Anyway, as a result some composers as well as other artists probably get lazy and reach for the formula rather than work for or even trust the unique or original because the formula seems to be what sells. Probably a lot of people who don't develop their full potential as a result.

So the independent musician has on the one hand a much easier job because he or she can get his/her music out there without going through any third party, or even without going to the trouble of producing a CD. On the other hand we have a much harder job because everyone and his dog is doing just that so the good as well as the great tends to get buried under the masses of average. Hard to find the needle because the haystack is so damn big.

Thanks midi-et-quart I will check out that link.


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## yhomas (Jul 7, 2018)

MarcusMaximus said:


> I write music which is neither mainstream nor for any media, i.e. standalone music for release in its own right. I make a living from something else so I can afford to write whatever I want rather than having to fit in with any particular programme. This is my preference though of course I have total respect for those who work more directly in the industry and write for film, TV etc. I have written a bit for theatre though.
> 
> Having said that, I need to find ways to get my music out into the world more effectively. I have recently released an EP of an orchestral suite which is up on Bandcamp, Amazon, Spotify etc. etc. At the moment it is sitting there doing nothing so I wonder what would help in terms of marketing etc.? I am not much of a business person and more interested in the creative side of things but I know it is important to work on promotion otherwise nobody knows you exist! I'm not looking for 'success' as such but I do want to get the music heard and hopefully enjoyed by some people. I have done some research and know about finding a niche audience etc. but I've honestly no idea how to go about doing that effectively, nor any of the other promotional tasks.
> 
> ...



The low hanging fruit is put a link to your music in your profile, and posts such as this, and probably 10+ people from this thread will see it.


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## MarcusMaximus (Jul 7, 2018)

yhomas said:


> The low hanging fruit is put a link to your music in your profile, and posts such as this, and probably 10+ people from this thread will see it.



Yes but I'm not so sure I want to try and promote or even expose my music _here. _That's way too scary! All you critical composers and industry pros.. 

Actually I think I did have a link to my Soundcloud up until recently. Fair point though. Will re-consider.


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## J-M (Jul 8, 2018)

MarcusMaximus said:


> Yes but I'm not so sure I want to try and promote or even expose my music _here. _That's way too scary! All you critical composers and industry pros..
> 
> Actually I think I did have a link to my Soundcloud up until recently. Fair point though. Will re-consider.



Do it. I post my tracks here and have links in my signature...and I'm honestly not that good with a virtual orchestra, but I improve everyday. You can get really good feedback (because this place is filled with actual pros!) here if you specifically ask for it, as this is probably the biggest forum about orchestral samples. For example, I used to be pretty active on Ultimate Guitar, but rarely post my music there because it's all about...,well, guitar. :D


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## jhughes (Jul 8, 2018)

I wished I could be more positive about this but the reality is trying to do the same moves as everyone else likely winds you up in the same boat. A soundcloud, youtube, whatever page with a handful of views and a couple of likes.

There are people doing this for a living, putting up a lot of stuff, working incredibly hard that basically can't find their audience either. In some cases depending on your niche there isn't much of an audience to begin with. 

All the hours promoting and marketing is hours away from writing/studying and if you aren't careful you can find yourself worn out from it.
Like recommended, getting someone else to do the business stuff for you is not a bad idea if you can afford it.

I have friends that it changed for in the blink of an eye, after getting nowhere for years. They went from putting up stuff, no one noticing it to BOOM, thousands of subscribers and followers. Right Topic, Right Material, etc. No explanation really. I almost feel if followers/subscribers is goal a person is better off running a music output experiment under aliases and trying a variety of things. LOL

You MIGHT be just as well off doing it the old fashioned way. Making connections locally, putting on small concerts of your material (whatever it takes to get a performance), getting to know musicians/other composers/etc. If you can write for orchestra you could write for smaller ensembles that have a higher chance at live performances. At some point the interweb is no longer all it's cracked up to be, sure you can reach A LOT of people...but visibility doesn't mean connection, especially when people are getting it from everywhere. 

These are just thoughts from a pro musician that sees an oversaturated market with no barrier to entry and the results of that. 

Good luck!


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## MarcusMaximus (Jul 8, 2018)

MrLinssi said:


> Do it. I post my tracks here and have links in my signature...and I'm honestly not that good with a virtual orchestra, but I improve everyday. You can get really good feedback (because this place is filled with actual pros!) here if you specifically ask for it, as this is probably the biggest forum about orchestral samples.. :D



That makes sense of course if you actually want feedback! Which may sound defensive but once something is completed, including being professionally mastered at some expense, for me I've gone beyond that point. Whatever about deliberately submitting it for review or whatever, just putting it up with an open invitation for 'comments and feedback' could have a detrimental rather than helpful effect. People can be quick to criticise and not always constructively (I mean generally, not just here). Which is fine if you're in the process of creating something and want some guidance or if you're a beginner looking for help but when something is finished, I'm not so sure. Especially when it takes an _obscene_ amount of time to do, which it still does for me. I'm working on that!  

Here is a link expressing a similar sentiment, although in a very different context:

https://aristake.com/post/submithub-review

It's long and not entirely relevant but at one point he says:

"For a fully mixed and mastered song being released next month, we aren’t going to ‘*add some synth*’ or ‘only have one singer.’ It’s done. I know my art is done. It’s ready. If you don’t dig it, fine. No problem. But to have the audacity to tell me what to change about my art. Nah."

A little aggressively put but hopefully you get his point. All art is subjective which makes it very hard and not always helpful to judge it.

Rilke's Letters to a Young Poet also come to mind. For example:

“There is nothing that manages to influence a work of art less than critical words. They always result in more or less unfortunate misunderstandings. Things are not as easily understood nor as expressible as people usually would like us to believe. Most happenings are beyond expression; they exist where a word has never intruded.”

Anyway, I'd be be interested to hear what others think about this. Meanwhile I'll put a link in my profile.



jhughes said:


> I wished I could be more positive about this but the reality is trying to do the same moves as everyone else likely winds you up in the same boat. A soundcloud, youtube, whatever page with a handful of views and a couple of likes.



A somewhat pessimistic but no doubt true picture reflecting what others have said. Again, finding someone good (and affordable!) to do the business stuff could be difficult I imagine. There are courses and so on that claim to offer training on the whole promotion thing, one of which was recommended to me, but I wonder if they don't just lead to the same end result you describe?



jhughes said:


> You MIGHT be just as well off doing it the old fashioned way. Making connections locally, putting on small concerts of your material (whatever it takes to get a performance).



Sure I could do all that though where I live it's a very small and competitive market. Some excellent stuff going on here but very hard to break in if you're an unknown. Still, that reflects the idea I mentioned earlier about putting it on in conjunction with some dance/movement, an idea I am actively looking into.



jhughes said:


> These are just thoughts from a pro musician that sees an oversaturated market with no barrier to entry and the results of that.
> 
> Good luck!



Thanks and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. A salutary reminder that unless I'm doing it primarily for the love of it, there really isn't much point.


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## fish_hoof (Jul 8, 2018)

MarcusMaximus said:


> Yes but I'm not so sure I want to try and promote or even expose my music _here. _That's way too scary! All you critical composers and industry pros..
> 
> Actually I think I did have a link to my Soundcloud up until recently. Fair point though. Will re-consider.



I know the feeling all to well. I do feel it's important to get critical feedback in order to keep growing and knock out any bad habits you might not hear. Take golf for example, plenty of people can watch videos and learn themselves... but to have that critical industry pro or teacher watch you and give you critical feedback and tell you what they see is an issue, you might not reach your full potential... or at least take the longer road to get there. Just my two cents. This also comes from someone who has had incredibly hard feedback given to me by industry profesionals over the years... but, it has and continues to make me better. My hope is that it will make you better and better too  

On a side note, it was mentioned before but I can't state it enough... write for the love and joy of writing. Keep working the muscles to get better and whatever happens will happen. I know it may sound like stupid advice... but I truly believe that if you work hard at your craft, people just inherently will notice. Will you be the next John Williams? I don't know... but I do know if a person keeps trying to BE the next John Williams level of success (which I don't think you have stated, I'm just talking), they will be chasing an empty cup of fulfillment forever. I don't know Hans Zimmer, but I'm guessing he didn't set out to be HANS ZIMMER, I think he first and foremost just wrote music for the joy and love of it and consistently worked to be better and better. The rest is history... or could be totally wrong. 

Ok I'm done... I needed a quick outlet to distracting me from two boys constantly fighting


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 9, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> My advice would be to continue studying and writing as much as possible, and perhaps hire someone in the future to deal with it. There's an astonishingly massive amount of music out there (most of it from fair to mediocre), and I will be completely forthright with you: without representation or a super lucky break (the latter was my own good fortune) what you will put out will largely be ignored. No matter how good it is. I'm dead serious.



Couldn't agree more. Marcus, at very least, just put your stuff out there (Soundcloud, Pond5, Getty, YouTube, etc) and the rest is luck. You just never know who might be looking for the exact sound you have...it's all about being in the right place at the right time.


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## MarcusMaximus (Jul 9, 2018)

Hope you got to calm your boys down a bit fish_hoof! 

Yes of course feedback is important but I think it depends on what stage you are at in your development and also what stage a particular project is at. Once a piece is finished and mastered as I said before, I don't think that's the best time to look for feedback in any general sense.

I spent 4 years taking weekly composition/orchestration lessons from an amazing composer, an industry pro himself, and although he was very supportive and encouraging, he was also _merciless_ in his critical feedback. I used to present my 'homework' to him and at times it was pretty excruciating what he would say. So I am no stranger to the benefits of constructive critical feedback! I learned a ton from that whole process and am very appreciative of it and of him. In my other work I have to give a lot of feedback to students I work with and it certainly is a huge part of their development. However giving feedback constructively is an art in and of itself and not everyone is sensitive or careful enough imo.

When I finished with the lessons it felt so good to be back to myself and my own, hopefully now more informed, preferences again but also having to be my own critic can definitely be a challenge. Have I slipped into bad habits that I'm unaware of? Probably. Have I internalised all his great teaching to the point where I always make the best choices in terms of orchestration etc? Probably not. Do I still have loads more to learn? Definitely! However surely there comes a point when we need to stop looking outside ourselves for evaluation of our work and learn to trust our own judgement, our own ears? To be more choosy about when, where and from whom we seek feedback? This might also be an age thing. I am at the point in my life now where I reckon it's about as good as it's going to get so my priority is to get on with it and to produce as much music as my time will allow. And to keep studying scores, revising lesson notes etc. etc.

I totally agree with you about writing for the joy and the love of it. Focusing on improving and developing rather than succeeding and then letting what happens as a result of that unfold as it will. However I still think that needs a little help along the way so as not to get buried under the mass of music already out there. Which comes back to the subject of this thread. Hopefully there is a middle way between doing nothing about promotion and trying to do too much. Quite what that middle way consists of I am still trying to work out.

Thanks for your thoughtful input.

Mark


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## MarcusMaximus (Jul 9, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Couldn't agree more. Marcus, at very least, just put your stuff out there (Soundcloud, Pond5, Getty, YouTube, etc) and the rest is luck. You just never know who might be looking for the exact sound you have...it's all about being in the right place at the right time.



Thanks Jeremy. Wise words. I'll check out Pond5 and Getty as I haven't come across them before. I definitely need to research this a bit more, i.e. where are the resources that we can use for exposure.


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## Wally Garten (Jul 9, 2018)

MarcusMaximus said:


> Yes but I'm not so sure I want to try and promote or even expose my music _here. _That's way too scary! All you critical composers and industry pros..



FWIW, I haven't put my music up here yet, either, but every time I've checked out a thread in the Members' Compositions section, I've seen nothing but encouragement, constructive feedback, and grace. Really a very attractive feature of this forum.


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## Desire Inspires (Jul 9, 2018)

MarcusMaximus said:


> Yes but I'm not so sure I want to try and promote or even expose my music _here. _




It's already out there.....


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## MarcusMaximus (Jul 10, 2018)

Wally Garten said:


> FWIW, I haven't put my music up here yet, either, but every time I've checked out a thread in the Members' Compositions section, I've seen nothing but encouragement, constructive feedback, and grace. Really a very attractive feature of this forum.



Yes no doubt you are right. I have also seen some pretty tough comments in the past when people have asked for feedback or when something hasn't been deemed to be up to scratch somehow but perhaps it's mostly my cautious nature coming through here.



Desire Inspires said:


> It's already out there.....



It is indeed...


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## MarcusMaximus (Jul 11, 2018)

I've been researching the self-promotion avenue and there are several courses out there which promise to up-skill you on this. I'm not sure how realistic their claims are but most of these programmes are A: quite expensive and B: clearly extremely time consuming. I'm not sure I have the time to put into it all and as some people have said, you can end up putting all your energy into that and not into writing, studying etc.

It has been mentioned that it might be a good idea to get someone else to handle the business/promotion side of things on my behalf. So I am wondering if anyone could recommend or suggest any agencies that do that? I've googled it obviously but it would be great to get some pointers from folks here. I should mention that I'm not really interested in going the sync licensing or library route. Thanks.


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## Mark Stothard (Jul 11, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> If that is the case, simply make a Soundcloud page and allow your music to be downloaded for free.
> 
> There are 7 billion people in the world. Somebosy will like your music and listen to it. You will not get rich, famous, or even appreciated. But you need to release it anyway.
> 
> Someone will love it and listen to it a lot. So just put out there and don't aim to get any praise or recognition from it. Many composers got "famous" after they died.



This is true at least for me. 

After a few years of frustration and not getting much interest in my music, I created a soundcloud page and just uploaded music without any marketing. I won’t be rich or famous and that doesn’t matter anymore, as what keeps me happy is having a couple of people return daily to listen to certain tracks over and over again. This keeps me making music.


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## MatFluor (Jul 11, 2018)

Some 2 cents from my side. Only relaying what I saw others do, and tips others gave me years ago and weeks ago.

Now, there is a vast sea of musicians - from talented to untalented ones, from earning a lot to earning nothing. The goal of writing what you love and do nothing else is an artists dream. But in history, you very, very seldom have seen that happening - most artists had somebody who supported them financially so they could do what they want, in exchange for other things like portraits, being leader of the orchestra etc.

Now - as much as I dislike these keyword-ridden titles, they are there for a reason. People look for music and search for it, so you have to make it find-able. The possibility of somebody searching "semi-experimental chamber music with serialist influence" is very slim - but "emotional orchestral" will be searched far more. It seems like you almost have to be a marketing whore. The channels to promote your music are there, the only difference is how you promote it. What I've been given as advise is to build a community. Nurture your first few fans, put out content regularly, every day, second day, every week on Tuesday - just regularly. Keep them informed, make polls, get to know them, and let them know you.
That's how it worked some time back in a band setting - before me and my former band played with stratovarius, we played locally, friends we know came to our concerts, they brought friends, they liked it, next time these friends-of-friends brought their friends etc. Throuhg CD release party, autograph hour, hanging out with the fans after the concert and stuff like that we made ourselves "tangible" and "human", but still with a small "rockstar" flair. But that's how we managed to sell 450 CDs on our release party. Did anyone know outside of our valley who we were? Nope. Until a friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend brought a concert organisator with him, who organized a gig with Stratovarius and others and wanted to have us there because he liked our music.

So - the best place to promote your music is where you already have your music. Share links, create a forum for your fans, invite them to facebook groups, discord chats or wherever you can communicate with yours. What in a way was good back then is still true today - I talked with a fulltime musician woman in a small metal subgenre. She makes nice music, nothing spectacularly new or experimental, but she amassed fans through social media, cared about them, created a culture with her music, a community where she interacted with them directly, regularly. Now her income is large enough to carry her and her family. Even if she doesn't release a track every week now, she daily checks in with the fans, gives updates on progress of a new CD or videoclip, asks for opinions, creates discussions and all in all creates a nice place for like-minded people to hang out.

That said, getting the initial first die-hard fans is tough, friends, family, good use of keywords and SEO, maybe an internet marketing specialist can help you there. Produce quality content regularly, communicate and watch your fanbase grow - even with a microniche. Do it, own it, expand it. It's work, no doubt - but that's the way I have seen it happening in a controlled manner. Then you have a lot of people who have luck on their side as well. But I personally prefer calculated luck rather than pure luck


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 11, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> before me and my former band played with stratovarius



Nice! My power metal band (Destiny Calling) supported a portion of two tours for Stratovarius in western Canada, had a blast hanging with Jorg Michael and Jens Johansson....also got to open for Sonata Arctica. We barely sold any CD's in North America (we were Canadian), nearly all of our sales were in Scandinavia and Asia. Back then it was a whole different ballgame with marketing, Facebook wasn't even online yet.


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## MarcusMaximus (Jul 11, 2018)

Mark Stothard said:


> After a few years of frustration and not getting much interest in my music, I created a soundcloud page and just uploaded music without any marketing. I won’t be rich or famous and that doesn’t matter anymore, as what keeps me happy is having a couple of people return daily to listen to certain tracks over and over again. This keeps me making music.


I really commend this attitude and am glad to hear that it has worked out this way and that you're satisfied with it. I'm certainly not interested in being rich and famous either (wouldn't say no though!) but I would like a little more exposure/response. The thing is as I've said before the stuff I tend to write is perhaps less immediately appealing than some people's music so it probably needs to find its 'niche audience' a little more than some as well. I may not be able to just put it up and have people return repeatedly to listen in quite the same way as you describe. This is another reason why I'm not interested in pursuing the library music route. I'm just not prepared to adapt what I write to that market. I have that luxury because I don't need to earn money from music but it wouldn't interest me anyway, no reflection on those that do it as I imagine it must take some skill to do it well.

Thanks MatFluor for your 2 cents. I get what you're saying but there are a couple of issues for me. One is I write really slowly, partly because I only have a few hours a day for it and also because the way I've learned to do it is thorough but lengthy, i.e. idea - short score - full score - mockup/recording. So it takes me an embarrassing amount of time to complete each project - there's no way I'm going to be putting up new content at anything like the rate you suggest is necessary. Also the whole process you describe must take an enormous amount of time to do, time I don't really have unless I more or less stop writing as I also work quite hard at my paid work!

However I have been considering doing a course which is run by someone who fits your description actually - I wonder if it's the same person? Yeah, she seems to have made a real success of it but what puts me off is all the time it must take to keep stoking that machine over and over til it starts to run itself. She has youth on her side as well, something which I no longer have. Anyway I'm certainly open to what you are saying, maybe I can find a way to do a little of all that marketing-whore stuff just to nudge things along but without getting too caught up in it? I dunno, will have to think about it.

Many thanks guys for all the great input so far.


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## MarcusMaximus (Jun 27, 2019)

Coming back to this almost a year later! At this stage I have done a lot of background work to set things up but I find I neither have the skills nor the inclination to dive into the actual promotion process itself, i.e. tracking down that elusive micro-niche, targeting them, doing the social media thing, email campaigns etc. etc. The bottom line is I really want to be putting my time into writing new music instead..

A couple of people suggested hiring someone else to do the promotion on my behalf. Does anyone know where I could find someone like that? Preferably not a full-on 'Promoter' who would no doubt cost a fortune but someone more moderately priced. Even if they weren't an expert at this but just had the time and the interest to take it on, which I don't.

Btw, just to add I'm not trying to do this on a grand scale (some chance!) but just want to find a way to get some sort of 'audience', complete the circle a bit more, have what I create listened to more, reach people who might dig what I do some more.. Even on a small scale.


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## Desire Inspires (Jun 27, 2019)

MarcusMaximus said:


> Coming back to this almost a year later! At this stage I have done a lot of background work to set things up but I find I neither have the skills nor the inclination to dive into the actual promotion process itself, i.e. tracking down that elusive micro-niche, targeting them, doing the social media thing, email campaigns etc. etc. The bottom line is I really want to be putting my time into writing new music instead..
> 
> A couple of people suggested hiring someone else to do the promotion on my behalf. Does anyone know where I could find someone like that? Preferably not a full-on 'Promoter' who would no doubt cost a fortune but someone more moderately priced. Even if they weren't an expert at this but just had the time and the interest to take it on, which I don't.
> 
> Btw, just to add I'm not trying to do this on a grand scale (some chance!) but just want to find a way to get some sort of 'audience', complete the circle a bit more, have what I create listened to more, reach people who might dig what I do some more.. Even on a small scale.



I guess I don’t understand what the problem is. 

You don’t want to put in the time to promote your music. You don’t have the money to promote your music. So what do you expect to change?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 27, 2019)

Desire has good points. Internet and social media marketing aren't rocket science, and there are tons of Youtube videos that show how it's done, you just need to commit some time every day to learn the process and to begin marketing yourself. For starters, build yourself a decent website and promote the hell out of it on social media; this is very inexpensive these days. My site, including hosting, costs under $100 per year....and a monkey can build one (even I can!).


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## MarcusMaximus (Jun 27, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> I guess I don’t understand what the problem is.
> 
> You don’t want to put in the time to promote your music. You don’t have the money to promote your music. So what do you expect to change?



Hold on now - that's a little harsh! I never said I don't have the money to promote it, just that I can't afford to pay a full-on professional promoter a high fee to do so. I am perfectly willing to pay someone within reason however, perhaps someone like a web designer who might have more savvy with this kind of thing.

Believe me Wolfie2112, I've looked at videos, read and researched loads about it all but in truth I am loathe to do that 'promoting the hell out of it' that I know is necessary if you want any sort of exposure. I have an aversion to most social media so I would really rather pay someone else to do it. Within reason as I say. I don't see why that's necessarily a dead-end attitude that invites no change.

Maybe what is confusing is that I'd just read this thread before adding the last paragraph in my post and found it quite inspiring: https://vi-control.net/community/th...y-doing-music-as-hobby-part-time-again.82403/

So I am reminded that although music is more than a hobby to me, I do have another source of income so I don't need to put huge pressure on myself to promote in the career-building sense of that word. I do want to find a way to reach people who might like what I do enough to listen to it, maybe download it, maybe even buy it. And yes, perhaps it would make more sense to knuckle down and do that myself but if there is someone out there who offers it as a service I'd be very interested to hear about them.


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## Desire Inspires (Jun 27, 2019)

MarcusMaximus said:


> Hold on now - that's a little harsh! I never said I don't have the money to promote it, just that I can't afford to pay a full-on professional promoter a high fee to do so. I am perfectly willing to pay someone within reason however, perhaps someone like a web designer who might have more savvy with this kind of thing.



So you want more exposure? Do you have any videos of you playing live? You could build a YouTube channel and use that as a promotion vehicle. Also if you own a studio, you could take photos of your equipment and create an Instagram profile. 

Believe me, there are many shy people who use social media as a way to find other like-minded people to interact with. If you can post here, you can absolutely do social media. Not all of it is lunatics screaming at each other. There are very cool people sharing cool things.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 27, 2019)

I'm not certain, but I don't think you can hire someone to promote your music the way you intend (unless you have a huge budget). If you were a business, that would be more tangible. I would first start with an official website, and send the link to every single contact you have. It's expensive to hire a web designer, I highly recommend checking out do-it-yourself sites such as Wix and GoDaddy. I bet you can by the domain Markduberry.com for around $20.


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## MarcusMaximus (Jun 27, 2019)

I love that - not all lunatics screaming at each other! 

It's not that I'm particularly shy, it's just I have no interest in SM. Probably a generational thing. I've been involved in various forums over the years so I'm no stranger to interacting like this but that's different, plus I don't do it very often. As several people have said before in this thread, active promotion can take up loads of time and my time is quite limited due to work commitments.

I already have a YouTube channel (with one video on it!), a website created in Wix though at the moment just the free version (I used to own that very domain name with an older website but it's no longer available, plus I closed down the old site years ago), a Bandcamp page, Soundcloud, Facebook and a CDBaby page. I'm with Distrokid so my stuff is on Spotify, Amazon etc. etc. That's all the infrastructure I need, the missing piece is drawing attention to it all.

You could be right Jeremy that I might not be able to find someone to fit my budget. When I mentioned a web designer I meant that some of them do promotion as well afaik. I'm happy and capable enough to build my own site as I've done a few times over the years. The DIY stuff is excellent these days, certainly for something 'simple but effective'.


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## sherief83 (Jun 27, 2019)

I genuinely always appreciate threads like this to just acknowledge the existence of people who put so much time and work in their craft and then get zero in return.

and tragically continue under the false hood that improving and evolving the art it self will ultimately pay off or bring them the audience they are looking for but end up no where for years and years and then live feeling like a failure all their lives and not wanting to share that very thought with anyone.

Be careful, this can be a dangerous road unless you do what I feel is the best thing for it.

just don't give a shit.

To me, i've observed (I exclude my self from this because thats where I lack and fail at) that because so many of us are out there, your talent won't be enough, you must include your self, doing websites, social media is good, but really, you need to put your self out there. people do want to see faces attached to the music, they want to see personalities and they want your help to make them see something they've never seen before.

Help them with what you've got, its not about you, its about your audience, help them find something they can enjoy and you can't hold back, put it all out, put your self out, and most importantly, Do not linger on times where you will see your self work so hard to put something out and you get zero anything. this will hurt so bad and will make you give up easy, the game is to not give up on moments like this.

Be warned, things could stretch to years like that and you live everyday questioning your existence and get fatigued in the end and then spend a long time knowing you are a failure.

don't give into it, that is the whole idea, to just not give into it, because it is true, until something HITS and then you're amazing.


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## brandowalk (Jun 27, 2019)

MM - interesting post and I find myself in a similar situation. I've recently got my webpage going and just started the sm thing. If you time-box the sm thing (ie. an hour a day? 30 min?) that might help get over the hurdle. The reality is that to get an audience, you have to consistently build your brand and promote somehow on the internet. As you probably know, there are "smarter" (and likely quicker) ways of using sm to get more views and there is plenty of this advice on the internet. Nothing comes w/o work. (or overnight).. time mgmt is key to working on the biz side vs creative side. Hopefully you will find a good balance to get traction and continue to enjoy your craft. I wish you the best of luck!


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 27, 2019)

All great points! Personally, I have found over the years that it’s about 10% writing music, and 90% “pounding the pavement” until you get that next gig. @sherief83 nailed it....eventually you get a hit, and the personal satisfaction is worth the effort in spades.


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## purple (Jun 27, 2019)

MarcusMaximus said:


> Yes but I'm not so sure I want to try and promote or even expose my music _here. _That's way too scary! All you critical composers and industry pros..
> 
> Actually I think I did have a link to my Soundcloud up until recently. Fair point though. Will re-consider.


If there is one thing I have learned from months on this page watching and participating in discussions about music, the industry, sample libraries, and mixing, I can confidently tell you that almost nobody here has any clue what they are talking about when it comes to music. Post it. Get some new listeners. Ignore the idiots.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 28, 2019)

purple said:


> Post it. Get some new listeners. Ignore the idiots.



Which is exactly what he has been doing. We are trying to offer advice on how one can market themselves to get more recognition as an artist.


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## D Halgren (Jun 28, 2019)

purple said:


> If there is one thing I have learned from months on this page watching and participating in discussions about music, the industry, sample libraries, and mixing, I can confidently tell you that almost nobody here has any clue what they are talking about when it comes to music. Post it. Get some new listeners. Ignore the idiots.


Wow


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## MarcusMaximus (Jun 28, 2019)

Sorry for late post - time zones and work commitments!

Thank you sherief83 for your thoughtful post. I agree with your advice to not give a shit! And to a large extent I don't, meaning I just write what I want. But then I'm not composing for any media. However I certainly don't feel like a failure - that's not it at all. I believe that 'success' is in the eye of the beholder and that for one person that might mean scoring a hit movie or selling loads of albums whereas for another it might mean crafting and honing a piece of music til it's just right no matter what the response is from outside. I'm happy enough to work away at what I do without being seen as 'amazing' (except by me of course!) but obviously I would like _some_ more exposure and recognition, as wolfie2112 put it so succinctly.

What you say brandowalk makes a lot of sense, especially about the time management/time-boxing thing. That sounds manageable and more tolerable than diving right in to a full-on campaign or whatever, like some of the promotion-strategy sales people advocate. I don't want to do 90% pavement-pounding but then I'm not looking for the next gig, just some sort of even minimal listenership. I'm probably coming around to accepting something like a reverse of that balance, i.e. a small amount of time spent on promotional activities vs. creativity. Even a trickle each day has got to be better than nothing..

Wow indeed purple! That's a bit heavy, although I take your point about just posting it and, well.. not paying too much attention to what people think or how they respond. However I have to disagree that people here generally have no clue about music. In my experience there are many discerning and experienced folk who really do know what they are talking about and who generously offer their perspectives and guidance on a regular basis. Pretty much all of what has been posted in this thread feels really helpful to me and I am very grateful for it. In fact I am feeling a lot more encouraged to go ahead and find a way to adopt some tolerable and 'smart' marketing practices that can fit in with my schedule. It doesn't have to be all or nothing and I'm less inclined to look for someone else to do it for me.

So that's worth a lot in my book.


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## ptram (Jun 28, 2019)

Art music has never enjoyed a lot of audience. Machault wrote for his church, disconnected from the internet, Monteverdi for his small court, Bach for the town ceremonies, Telemann and Haydn for a palace's chamber, and Mozart died in misery. Contemporary composers must be good at politics, because their only hope is to become composers in residence at some state-funded festival.

Don't let be fooled by the tales of the huge crowds at the funerals of Beethoven, Wagner and Verdi, because the first one had become the official composer of the restored Ancien Régime, and the two others were in the then flourishing showbiz.

Be happy of being able to compose good music, and have twenty five people liking it.

Paolo


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## Parsifal666 (Jun 28, 2019)

I write what I feel, and I know what I'm writing represents as closely as possible my inner workings.

That's it. What other people think about it means nothing, and I'll tell anyone whom starts off a sentence with "do you want my opinion?" with "I don't care, so you know where to put it".

Now, if I'm getting _*paid*_.....


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## MarcusMaximus (Jun 28, 2019)

I absolutely agree with what you are both saying. 1000%

Now, where am I going to find those 25 people who will like my music? That's some micro-niche!


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## purple (Jun 28, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Which is exactly what he has been doing. We are trying to offer advice on how one can market themselves to get more recognition as an artist.


That was just a direct response to the post I quoted. My advice for sort of getting it more seriously out there would be to try getting some of it recorded and then try to sell it to schools and universities. They are often the ones more willing to try new things because they are not as concerned with selling tickets on name recognition as major orchestras are.


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## MarcusMaximus (Jun 28, 2019)

Ok what you said makes more sense in the context of the quote. Not sure I’d want to approach schools or universities although I do have proper scores for most pieces but I can see that it could be a viable option alright. Worth considering in terms of possible performance for sure.


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## Seycara (Jul 1, 2019)

I believe I can provide some advice here based on what I did:

1. Make covers of popular songs in orchestral format (preferably ones you like yourself)
2. Make them as good as you can and as many as you can to garner more listeners in the process
3. Once you have a decent listener base, start posting original stuff and your audience will like it

For example, here is a cover I did some years back that was fortunate enough to become popular:


It has a very large amount of views and as a result attracted many listeners to my channel; from here I uploaded some originals e.g. :



Now, obviously it doesn't have _as _many views, but ~20k is still by my standards, quite successful for an all original composition.

That's all I can say and I hope that my experience can help you get your music out there. Best of luck.


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## Rodney Money (Jul 1, 2019)

Can I ask, “Who is your audience? Who are you looking to purchase your music and do what with it?” Then I may be able to give some advice.


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## Greg (Jul 1, 2019)

Heres a reality check.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=john+adams+become+ocean


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## MarcusMaximus (Jul 2, 2019)

That's lovely work Seycara - thank you for posting. I see what you are getting at but the amount of time it would take me to do that would be unfeasible. I just about have enough time to write and produce my own music and that's at a snail's pace because of work commitments and being pretty slow at this stuff anyway! 

The question about who my audience is is a really good one. I've tried to define my 'micro-niche' but I find it hard to pin down. Broadly speaking, I would like to reach people who will enjoy listening to the music for its own sake, i.e. not attached to any other medium, although I have made a video to go with one piece which I think works quite well so it could be quite visually evocative. It would probably appeal more to a slightly older audience as it's less 'mainstream' or immediately accessible as I've said before here. I like to think it's fairly laid back and atmospheric. What would buyers do with it? Just listen man, the old-fashioned way! 

This is what I say on my website if it helps to clarify at all:

"Mark’s goal is to continue to compose cross-genre music for orchestra, guitars and electronics. His main influences include modern classical, orchestral soundtrack, electroacoustic ambient, progressive rock and jazz rock music."

Does that answer your question at all Rodney?


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## MarcusMaximus (Jul 2, 2019)

Greg said:


> Heres a reality check.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=john+adams+become+ocean



I love his music.. Maybe I'm being a bit thick here but could you clarify what the reality is we're supposed to be checking?!


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## paularthur (Jul 2, 2019)

Seycara said:


> I believe I can provide some advice here based on what I did:
> 
> 1. Make covers of popular songs in orchestral format (preferably ones you like yourself)
> 2. Make them as good as you can and as many as you can to garner more listeners in the process
> ...




I love your page!


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## Rodney Money (Jul 2, 2019)

MarcusMaximus said:


> That's lovely work Seycara - thank you for posting. I see what you are getting at but the amount of time it would take me to do that would be unfeasible. I just about have enough time to write and produce my own music and that's at a snail's pace because of work commitments and being pretty slow at this stuff anyway!
> 
> The question about who my audience is is a really good one. I've tried to define my 'micro-niche' but I find it hard to pin down. Broadly speaking, I would like to reach people who will enjoy listening to the music for its own sake, i.e. not attached to any other medium, although I have made a video to go with one piece which I think works quite well so it could be quite visually evocative. It would probably appeal more to a slightly older audience as it's less 'mainstream' or immediately accessible as I've said before here. I like to think it's fairly laid back and atmospheric. What would buyers do with it? Just listen man, the old-fashioned way!
> 
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to answer my question! So, you are looking to produce your own orchestral pieces with mostly samples and guitar, then get people to purchase the music for listening? I just want to be clear. Are you looking for performers to purchase your sheet music to perform your works also?


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## MarcusMaximus (Jul 2, 2019)

Yes that's right, and thank you for asking the question in the first place! I have the sheet music, or the scores at least from which I could generate the parts if necessary, and would love to have the music performed. However I wouldn't expect anyone to buy it - heck I'd be thrilled to think that any orchestra would consider performing it, highly unlikely I imagine, so I'd happily give it to them for free!  

I should add that although of course I'd like to actually sell the music, that's not the priority. I'd be happy to get more listeners even if that meant not actually making (much) money from it.


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## Greg (Jul 2, 2019)

MarcusMaximus said:


> I love his music.. Maybe I'm being a bit thick here but could you clarify what the reality is we're supposed to be checking?!



That album won a Pulitzer Prize and it still struggles to find an audience on Youtube. Certain styles of music only have so big of an audience, even if its the most beautiful and inspired work ever made in the genre. 

There's not much more you can do for Youtube other than try to add more keywords to your videos and social media. For an example video title: Avant-garde Orchestral Music - Solitude by Mark Duberry

That way the listener has some clue about what they're about to click on. It also will give it a better chance to be suggested after videos with similar titles & tags, as well as pop up in search engines. Keywords are what makes the internet go round and you have to master them to be able to promote anything online.


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## MarcusMaximus (Jul 2, 2019)

Excellent advice thanks. Yes, I've been slow to adapt the whole keyword thing - well the whole social media thing in general of course! Though I am getting there, doing a couple of courses and so on to get the wheels rolling. I actually really like that video title you suggested. I've always thought of Avant-garde as more 'out there' than I tend to write but it does have a nice ring to it. I understand though, the idea is to get something familiar sounding even if it's only an approximation and to use it to create a context, or to fit in with an existing context.

Thanks for explaining re. Adams. Makes sense and is a reality check for sure. What hope is there really for the rest of us?!


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## asherpope (Jul 2, 2019)

Greg said:


> Heres a reality check.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=john+adams+become+ocean


I'd never heard of him til your post...mesmerising stuff


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## MarcusMaximus (Jul 4, 2019)

MarcusMaximus said:


> ... However I wouldn't expect anyone to buy it - heck I'd be thrilled to think that any orchestra would consider performing it, highly unlikely I imagine, so I'd happily give it to them for free!
> 
> I should add that although of course I'd like to actually sell the music, that's not the priority. I'd be happy to get more listeners even if that meant not actually making (much) money from it.



Before this goes cold I just wanted to qualify what I said there as it might make it sound like I'm not serious about my music, or that I'm a beginner or something like that. I tend to under-sell myself generally and this was perhaps a small example of that. So just for the record..

I would describe myself as a 'serious amateur' to quote my old composition teacher, in the original meaning of that word as someone who does something 'for the love of it' rather than to make money, as opposed to anything derogatory. I am fortunate enough to have a means of earning a decent living that leaves me quite a lot of time to pursue music. I've actually been composing for about 40 years in one way or another! I've taken several courses in jazz and composition/arranging as well as a 4-year stint of weekly lessons with a professional composer. I trained initially as a classical guitarist and performed around Dublin where I lived at the time. I've also played in several bands through the years, among them a Steely Dan tribute. When I lived in London and got involved in the jazz scene there a couple of my pieces were performed by a big band and a jazz orchestra so I'm not entirely new to that process. I have released a few CD's over the years and I have also written music and done sound design for theatre. A couple of those shows were on in major theatres here in Dublin and also toured Ireland and one went on in a New York festival where it was nominated for an award.

Not much of a 'career' perhaps by the standards of some people here but not nothing either! These days I just want to write what I feel like writing, with no other agenda. I'm too old to pound any pavements and anyway I'm less interested in writing for media, plus I don't depend on music for my livelihood so I am free to please myself. On the other hand, of course I'd love to sell more of my music or have an orchestra perform it - my intention is always to do this on as serious a level as I can given the limitations of time as well as my preference for music with a fairly niche-audience. Orchestral/Atmospheric Prog-Rock anyone?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 4, 2019)

I'd say you've had a really good go at it! Your story sounds quite common, and I love that you are still fuelled by that passion to continue with music in some form. I'd say just keeping plugging away, spend an allotted time each day promoting (even like half an hour or something), and keep the momentum going. You just never know....your music might be in the right place at the right time, which will lead to bigger and better opportunities. You are definitely talented, and have achieved a lot more than many can even dream.


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## MarcusMaximus (Jul 4, 2019)

Thank you very much for your kind and affirming words Jeremy. I really do appreciate it. Yes, the passion for music is as strong as ever - I've even started up a new alt/prog rock band recently! And your advice as always is really wise and practical. Yes I think that is the way to go and thanks to your and others' encouragement here I have taken some concrete steps towards doing just that, i.e. putting some time each day into learning about and implementing active self-promotion.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 4, 2019)

MarcusMaximus said:


> I've even started up a new alt/prog rock band recently!



NICE! I love that stuff. One of my top favourite bands of all time is RUSH. I had the pleasure of meeting Geddy Lee at the opening of his bass exhibit recently, at the National Music Centre here in Calgary.


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## MarcusMaximus (Jul 4, 2019)

You know I've never really listened to them believe it or not. Way back when I was really into all that it was the British scene I was mostly enthralled with. Must correct that and check out their stuff.

Actually the bass player from the Steely Dan tribute is a huge fan and formed a Rush tribute a few years after we disbanded! They play here quite often and are very good by all accounts.


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