# Deciding what instruments to write with



## Dan Mott (Jun 2, 2012)

How on earth do you decide on what instruments you want to right with? There are so many great instruments out there and obviously you cannot include them all in your music.

There's so many choices. You could write with Piano/Strings/Brass/Woodwinds/Ethnic instruments and electronic instruments and EVEN just anything laying around the house that can be manipulated in really cool ways.

I'd just like to know what goes through the minds of some of you guys. I mean, you guys don't just go into a project and just write with whatever is there... right? You must have some sort of plan on what instruments you want to use, but are you just chosing your favorite instruments, or you do have a general purpose on why you have chosen those particular instruments for your piece?

I watch documentaries on artists and they say what they recorded before writing a song, or during the song, but sometimes it's hard to tell if they just record instruments they might use and experiment with them, or know exactly what they hear in their head and just go record it. haha. I'm probably over complicating things but I just cannot decide what I want to write with. I mean there's alot of recording experiments you can do. I had an idea of recording my garage door and making some interesting percussive pattern, while having that manipulated in alchemy, ect. Why would I do that though? I don't have a purpose but I only know it would be very cool to try, but I should have a plan on why I'm doing it..... ~o) 

Anyway. If you guys have anything to discuss, just do so ahhaha.


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## KEnK (Jun 2, 2012)

How do you decide what you want for dinner?
or what to wear? 

You just decide and go with it.

Actually, in my case I tend to think stylistically or structurally first.
Meaning if I was going to write a generic epic trailer piece I know what the instrument
selection is.

Lately I've been doing a series of "retro" pieces.
I start w/ a vague plan, like a script w/ a plot and characters,
then those roles fill themselves.

More specifically, you could say I have a 70's rock template,
an Esquivel/Mancini template, one for old school synth funk,
and I've tried a James Bondish combo of Orchestral + Funk Type band.
(To that I may add harpsichord or hammered dulcimer)

Each "template" has a "starting cast" of characters that are later augmented or swapped out as need be. 

The trick for me is know what the piece is before I go near my sequencer.
Otherwise I waste a lot of time dicking around with what ifs.

Sometimes I'll write something to try out a specific patch, or combo of patches.
In this case, the instrument is the 1st decision.

k


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 2, 2012)

You listen to a piece you would like to write in the style of and you ask yourself, "What are the most important elements of this piece?"

And then you must have the Courage to Create.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Courage-Create-Rollo-May/dp/0393311066 (http://www.amazon.com/The-Courage-Creat ... 0393311066)


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## RiffWraith (Jun 2, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Sat Jun 02 said:


> How on earth do you decide on what instruments you want to right with?



Alot of that has to do with the feeling and emotion you are trying to convey. If you are composing a piece to someone stepping out on to their porch, who sees someone walking towards them after that person was thought to be dead, and you want to convey relief, happiness, and overall joy, you wouldn't write your main theme there with low tuba doubled with bass trombone playing_ *fff*_. You would use some high violins, or maybe flutes. Which one you ask? There is no right or wrong answer there; they both can do the job well. And I gurantee you, have 10 composers score that scene, and some would choose the strings, and some would choose the flutes. And some might choose something else.



Dan-Jay @ Sat Jun 02 said:


> There's so many choices.



And that's the great thing about writing for an orchestra.


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## germancomponist (Jun 2, 2012)

It depends.

The bigger your knowledge is, what you can tell for feelings best with what instrument, the easier it is to find the right instruments.  But, not always that easy.... . 

Sometimes I experiment hours only to find out, that my first selection of an instrument, to tell this or that..., was the best.

o/~


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## RyBen (Jun 2, 2012)

Well firstly, I'd start studying the different instruments in-depth.

Rimsky Korsakov's guide is pretty good. I couldn't let go of it once I started reading it. Nail down the ranges of each instrument and know the specialties of each one in terms of technique...

Like obviously woodwinds have high agility and they can jump octaves with ease.. Oboe is great for staccato while Clarinet may be better with legato.
The Bassoon is probably the most agile bass instrument aside from the Cello..
It's difficult to engage chromatic passages on string instruments and it also sound very undefined.
Obviously you won't use strings to do a horn riff in fanfare..
though there's nothing "wrong" with it, but a brass instrument is preferred in that case.
2 horns = 1 trumpet, or something like that..
The list goes on. Allot of it, you already know aurally, just not consciously.

Other than that, there's just little things you notice (as far as orchestration/doubling) if you study music for large ensembles. There's really only 2 bass instruments that matter: Double Bass and Tuba, maybe Contrabassoon if you want some extra thickness too. I often double those without hesitation for a quick powerful bass line. Maybe I'll single them out depending on the context.

Once you learn those things, you'll hardly ask yourself what to use, you'll already know. Just think about the function of the passage you're writing. Which instrument would best be suited for it? Consider what's already playing in that space of time. If it's a melody you're writing, a woodwind instrument may not be heard over a bunch of brass, unless you combine their numbers. That may be OK if the woodwinds are high enough to pierce through the rest.

Lastly, you should EXPERIMENT. I know that others don't always condone "learning from samples," but it's probably all you've got. It won't be 100% accurate compared to the real life sound, but it'll give you the "effect" of those instrumental combinations.


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## Ed (Jun 2, 2012)

Depends on the project. If Im trying to write big trailer music, I have a bunch of set sounds I like to use, certain synths like Omni or perc like Epic Frame Drums or something. More generally its orchestra, percussion, synth, FX, hybrid perc, maybe some loops etc. Within that context, whatever works. I mean I probably wont use a Banjo sample, unless Im feeling crazy enough that I think I can process it to sound super cool but not much like a banjo anymore...

But what if its a light hearted thing, well maybe I'll use Ukulele , piano, glock, some clap sounds, harp. Maybe piano, pizz strings.. etc.

If there's no set thing Im trying to write for, which I havent done for a long time, just jam away on a sound, construct a beat, synth line or whatever and just start going through other sounds and jamming away until you find something that works with whatever you did, then keep going. I mean really its the same as my normal approach its just there's no rules this time. I do find it best to have some kind of idea where you want it to go, even if its just a feeling you want to have while listening to it. 

Dunno if that helps..


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## germancomponist (Jun 2, 2012)

Ed @ Sat Jun 02 said:


> Depends on the project. If Im trying to write big trailer music, I have a bunch of set sounds I like to use, certain synths like Omni or perc like Epic Frame Drums or something. More generally its orchestra, percussion, synth, FX, hybrid perc, maybe some loops etc. Within that context, whatever works. I mean I probably wont use a Banjo sample, unless Im feeling crazy enough that I think I can process it to sound super cool but not much like a banjo anymore...



Especially when it comes to trailers: Try to use *not* the same instruments and phrases what 99% of trailer music composers are using! Try to compose a trailer without that choirs..... ! (for example)

o=<


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## Ed (Jun 2, 2012)

germancomponist @ Sat Jun 02 said:


> Try to compose a trailer without that choirs..... ! (for example)
> 
> o=<



You have to do what is asked of you Gunther  Besides, there's always no choir versions. There's plenty of trailer music without choir, especially when you take that into account. But it is there if the editors want it.


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## germancomponist (Jun 2, 2012)

Ed @ Sat Jun 02 said:


> But it is there if the editors want it.



Unfortunately, these editors have no guts and more into the bone. They are all anxious and prefer to rely on what worked well yesterday. They copy all...., and at the end all trailers sound nearly the same. 

(Huh, I don`t want to start another fight, Alex! So please, be relaxed!)


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## Arbee (Jun 2, 2012)

I feel your pain. In the modern environment this is such a challenge, because everything is available in a VI world from orchestral to choir to rhythm sections and great synth sounds. To make matters worse, the knowledge to excel in any area is freely available thanks to the Internet. I'm struggling with this a lot as I attempt to find my "voice" again after years away from music. My background first time around doesn't help as I covered just about every type of music there is to make a living. It's easy to lose your creative identity and "authenticity" along the way. I'm much more protective of that this time around.

Back to the question, it depends on how I start. If I know up front how the end product should sound in terms of intimate v epic, genre etc then it's easier. In addition, if I have melodic content already in mind then this generally "fits" certain instruments/styles better than others. If not, I quite often just fire up Omni and get inspired - one of my favourite "inspired moments" recently uses just the Omni mandolin and Soundiron Riq Drum :shock: 

Apologies for the rambling but this crosses over several deeper questions like "why am I doing this?" and "who am I in terms of my life experiences, personality and musical knowledge?".


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## Arbee (Jun 2, 2012)

germancomponist @ Sun Jun 03 said:


> It depends.
> 
> The bigger your knowledge is, what you can tell for feelings best with what instrument, the easier it is to find the right instruments.  But, not always that easy.... .



+1. One of my favourite quotes that relates to this is from Abraham Maslow - "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument

..


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## rJames (Jun 2, 2012)

germancomponist @ Sat Jun 02 said:


> Especially when it comes to trailers: Try to use *not* the same instruments and phrases what 99% of trailer music composers are using! Try to compose a trailer without that choirs..... ! (for example)
> 
> o=<


Gunther, I think u know what ur talking about! Don't spend your time chasing the past. Invent the future.


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## Dan Mott (Jun 2, 2012)

Hello guys

I really appreciated all the info. Thanks alot.

I Think maybe I just don't know what to write. I don't want to write epic trailers, nor orchestral music, although they seem easier to understand for me. It's funny because for an epic trailer track, it would be much easier to decide what I want, infact! I can already think of what I'd use right now. Same goes with orchestral. Maybe because I've heard alot of those tracks. For a pop song I'd know what I'd use aswell, considering I have written quite a few full pop tracks in the past. 

The thing is, I don't want to write any of that. I want to write something though! It's taken me quite along time to figure out what it is. I think I am musical, but sometimes I question it because I don't know what type of music I want to right, but I know something is there that I need to get out.

I don't want to write traditionally. I don't want to try a be different, but if I start writing anything traditional, I get bored and just through it away. My mind says "oh, you are writing an orchestral song now. Now you are writing a pop dance song. Now you are writing trailer type music" So then I lose interest because I want something entirely fresh I guess. I think this has alot to do with that I just don't enjoy listening to music much anymore, apart from my favorite tracks. My friends show me tracks I always never like anything. Even you guys could throw songs at me all day and 100% I won't go back to it to listen again because I really liked it. Nothing really captures my emotions. I don't know why that is really.

Maybe I should study classical music.... Hmm.

Thanks for the info again.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 2, 2012)

rJames @ Sun Jun 03 said:


> Gunther, I think u know what ur talking about! Don't spend your time chasing the past. Invent the future.



NOOOOOO!!!!!! If Gunther invents the future (for all of us that is), we will have a world without choirs!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!


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## rJames (Jun 2, 2012)

Hey dan-jay,
I have a couple of other thoughts about this.

One is that Scott Smalley said, in the session of his orchestration that I took a few years ago, that when your client is asking for a knock off of another cue, he is most likely looking for a similar orchestration.

Sure, there's a lot more to it than that but choosing instruments and how the parts fit together...how they are orchestrated is what style is all about.

And to START making money in music, u have to copy popular styles. Some composers or musicians start with their own style, but I think that is the exception and not the rule.

I assume this is why a genre standout star gets to score movies without going to USC.

Choosing the instrument is crucial. That's why so many of us have gravitated to the orchestra. We know what the instruments are supposed to do. That's why there is way too much trailer music that sounds the same.

R u gonna compete with Immediate, audio machine, 2 steps in the area where they have expertise and client base for years?

So, if u r independently wealthy, then u can try new stuff. Just do it! I mean it has to be in the realm of what is being listened to or your chances get even longer than millions to one that u will make money.

If u need to make money like the other 99% of us do ( see how I got that political commentary in there?) u r gonna have to find a prospective client and get them to pay u for your work.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Sat Jun 02 said:


> Hello guys
> 
> I really appreciated all the info. Thanks alot.
> 
> ...



Dan-Jay, did we not have this discussion a year ago when I was trying (unsuccessfully) to goad you into writing _something_, _anything_ instead of offering advice to people about what _they_ should be doing?

You should do yourself a favor and read that book I posted the link to earlier in this thread IMHO.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Courage-Create-Rollo-May/dp/0393311066 (http://www.amazon.com/The-Courage-Creat ... 0393311066)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 3, 2012)

The irony is that this is a new "problem" introduced by the digital revolution (as people have said in so many words).

Before modern sampling became good enough to replace live instruments, you simply decided on an ensemble at the beginning of a project and wrote for it. And you had to write around the limitations, for example very high notes don't sound good (in most contexts) if you have a small string section, and most TV scores take that into account. Similarly, unison solos between instruments at the opposite ends of a studio - when they didn't have headphones - could be a problem.

And so on.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 3, 2012)

> And to START making money in music, u have to copy popular styles. Some composers or musicians start with their own style, but I think that is the exception and not the rule.



Probably, and you certainly want the skill to be able to do that. But I think that's going to change. "They" already have lots of people who can sound like everyone else - more so than ever, now that everyone has the same toys and loops. So I think your best chance is if you have something to say!

And the best musicians have always been unique anyway.


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## Dave Connor (Jun 3, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Sat Jun 02 said:


> So then I lose interest because I want something entirely fresh I guess.



Then you must sit down at the piano or whatever your preferred compositional mode is and _discover_ something fresh. Once you have the basic idea or even the complete framework, then you must ask yourself how to best present the material: what ensemble, what instrumentation. You can do this as an exercise to develop a technique and not sweat too much over the music itself or you can sweat bullets and try to get every aspect (from musical idea to orchestration) absolutely perfect. Either one of these approaches would be a very healthy undertaking.

Your situation is not unique but the plight of any originally thinking composer.


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## Ed (Jun 3, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Sat Jun 02 said:


> I don't want to write epic trailers, nor orchestral music, although they seem easier to understand for me.



Well thats wasnt really my point, if you look at the last bit of my post I am simply saying you need a direction. ANY direction, even if thats just a feeling. Happiness, sadness, hopefulness. Maybe you want to make something that has a really cool bass line, whatever it is doesnt matter. When I started writing music FOR things I got much better at it because I had a purpose. I think its because when you get ideas you'll be in a better position to RECOGNISE when an idea really works and when it doesnt. When you have practically an infinite number of possibilities recognising what is a good idea is half the battle. 




> I think this has alot to do with that I just don't enjoy listening to music much anymore, apart from my favorite tracks.



Well to be honest thats a big problem, you need to be inspired by music. For me thats film and how music is used in film. If you want something "fresher" get away from the mainstream, listen to some more stuff with an open mind from all over the world. The different kinds of music you have heard shapes your own musical ideas. There are no truly fresh (ie. original) ideas, just minor evolution of something that came before it or a blend of more than one idea. It might sound fresh because you dont know the influences. 

You could just be going through a phase, but I think the main thing you need to do is get this passion back for music. When you do, make sure you give yourself a direction, a purpose, when you start making music again. I think you'll find its much easier when you do that.


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## Hannes_F (Jun 3, 2012)

My pet peeves shortcut: Piano in front of a strings bed. Easy to do, seems to work always ... yawn.


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## rgames (Jun 3, 2012)

Regarding which instrument to write with - I use only one: the piano.

In my opinion, and ignoring music where the vocal is the primary focus (as in most pop music) and music that is mostly sound design, the really good music transcends any particular instrumentation. A good piece of music performed by a full orchestra still sounds good when performed in a reduction for string quartet, or vice versa. That same music will also sound good when performed in a reduction for piano or guitar.

So which instruments to write with? Doesn't really matter if your focus is the music.

rgames


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2012)

After all is said and done, wanting to be a composer is an understandably attractive idea, but a composer is someone who, good or bad, _composes_ something.

While every composer can have fallow periods, if a person has not written music with any degree of consistent output, they maybe have to consider that while they like the idea of being a composer, they are not actually a composer.


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## germancomponist (Jun 3, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Jun 03 said:


> > And to START making money in music, u have to copy popular styles. Some composers or musicians start with their own style, but I think that is the exception and not the rule.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



+1


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## Ed (Jun 3, 2012)

rJames @ Sat Jun 02 said:


> And to START making money in music, u have to copy popular styles. Some composers or musicians start with their own style, but I think that is the exception and not the rule.


To add to other replies on this, I think its entirely possible to make money without copying everyone elses style. It does make it easier to make money if you can do it, but so long as you're good and your style is still good it may just take a longer to be successful but I really believe you can do it.


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## Dan Mott (Jun 3, 2012)

Thanks guys.

Starting out at the piano seems like a good idea. I don't really do that often. It's hard to decide because when you've chosen your instruments, that's what your music will sound like, so I'm fussy with instrument choice. It seems traditional instruments don't entirely cut it for me. Sure strings are great, but I want some new instrument to accampany that. It's hard creating new sounds that for sure 

I want to do alot of stuff electronically. It's alot easier imagining what instruments you want because you can already hear a piano in your head or strings, but I guess you need more of an imagination for the electronic side because I can't imagine any sound in my had electronically. Since I have been studying alot in that area, I feel I'm becoming more of a programmer instead of writing and I don't want to be programming more than writing. This Synthesis thing has made me dismiss writing all together. 

I think maybe going a couple of weeks without touching my music computer would be good, since I'm on it all day, everyday. Then maybe I might be able to decide exactly what I want alot easier.


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## Niah (Jun 4, 2012)

On style:

http://youtu.be/36ZJxrPJN9o?t=6m47s


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## XcesSound (Jun 4, 2012)

Study, Listen and Study more. Learn what the instruments can do and can't do well, it's colour, range, how the tessitura affect its timbre etc etc. If you enjoy score reading, do to imslp and look at the masters of classical music and how they used different instruments to its potential and listen to the recording. Getting the "sound and colour" of the instrument in your head is crucial and way more effective than picking what sounds good on samples.


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## MikeH (Jun 4, 2012)

The sad thing is, when you say, "It seems traditional instruments don't entirely cut it for me", I'm sure you mean, "*sampled* traditional instruments. There are enormous things you could do with a live string section that you probably haven't even begun to scratch the surface of. 

But if you're never going to work with live musicians, then what I said probably doesn't apply and you'll have to focus more on electronic music to feel like you have more options. 

I've never heard a composer say that traditional instruments 'don't cut it' for them. There are fantastic composers who have been composing amazing music for decades and STILL are studying and learning new things about traditional instruments. But maybe you're not wanting to be an orchestral composer, which (again) means that what I just said might not apply to you.

I don't think this issue is about instruments...I think it's about composing. And sometime or another you just have to abandon thinking so much about it and just do, do, do


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## KEnK (Jun 4, 2012)

rgames @ Sun Jun 03 said:


> Regarding which instrument to write with - I use only one: the piano.
> 
> In my opinion, and ignoring music where the vocal is the primary focus (as in most pop music) and music that is mostly sound design, the really good music transcends any particular instrumentation. A good piece of music performed by a full orchestra still sounds good when performed in a reduction for string quartet, or vice versa. That same music will also sound good when performed in a reduction for piano or guitar.
> 
> ...


That's the best advise in this thread.

The Greats didn't have computers.
It was all piano and extrapolated w/ imagination.

Dan-Jay~

Write a _series of solo piano pieces_.
This will get your energy/process moving and you won't be distracted by knobs.

It will bring you to another place compositionally.

An exercise in _doing_ is in order here.
k


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## re-peat (Jun 4, 2012)

KEnK @ Mon Jun 04 said:


> That's the best advise in this thread.(...)
> Dan-Jay,
> 
> Write a _series of solo piano pieces_.
> ...


I thought it was pretty bad advice actually. 
It’s the sort of advice that assumes that music has to be a certain type of thing (something rooted in well-established practice and expressed in well-established sound) and, even worse, it assumes that Dan can only find satisfaction as a composer (and our approval) if he operates within that well-established territory.

(I also believe, by the way, that the idea which says that only music which can survive the piano- or guitar-reduction can be great music, is total and utter nonsense. Stuffy, old-fashioned, narrow-minded and unimaginative nonsense.)

Furthemore, we don’t know Dan’s abilities at the piano, and if these abilities aren’t on a level that allows him to express whatever he has in him to express, advising him to write piano pieces in order to get out of the quicksand of aimless frustration which he finds himself at the moment, is a terrible, possibly desastrous idea. It’ll only increase the frustration and self-doubt even more.

Dan, my advice: don’t try to be original, don’t look for ‘fresh’, simply follow your instincts and, above all, be brutally honest with yourself. If these instincts lead you to work with oscillators and filters, then that's where your place is. And if they lead towards a piano or whatever, than that is where you ought to be. You'll know. Only you can tell. None of us can, and certainly not the greats-without-computers.

The thing is: if you’re truly good and you've found your voice (again: without any self-deceit), you’re automatically fresh and original as well. Good, heh? Because there’s always more originality (and certainly more lasting and share-worthy value) in quality than there is in being merely fresh and original.

_


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 4, 2012)

re-peat @ Mon Jun 04 said:


> KEnK @ Mon Jun 04 said:
> 
> 
> > That's the best advise in this thread.(...)
> ...



i agree with all this EXCEPT. "be brutally honest wwith yourself.

When you are having trouble getting started writing, be GENTLE with yourself and turn off the judge in your head that says "this is good" or "this sucks." If you are to be a composer, you need to compose, bad or good, traditional or non-traditional. original or derivative, it doesn't matter.

STOP TALKING TO PEOPLE ON FORUMS AND JUST WRITE SOMETHING!!!!


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## KEnK (Jun 4, 2012)

re-peat @ Mon Jun 04 said:


> KEnK @ Mon Jun 04 said:
> 
> 
> > That's the best advise in this thread.(...)
> ...


Peat- I generally agree w/ what you say, (sagely advise and all)
but in this case you're usual wisdom is off the mark.

Not necessarily your basic premise, (though that too is debatable) 
but more as it relates to Dan-Jay in this thread.

I've been communicating w/ DanJay for a few years 
and am familiar w/ his process.

The answer here is about focus.
Writing the music first.
Selecting the instrument later.

It's that simple.
Piano is a great choice for this _particular way_ of writing.

IMO, this method would be most helpful to Dan, 
_as an exercise at this time for this particular problem._

Over-philosophizing the Nature of Musical Evolution is not gonna help the guy.

Saying "Put you toys away and _write for the piano_", might.

As I said- In Dan's case, it's about _Doing_.
it's about follow through.

Esoteric conceptualization isn't going to help.

k


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## rgames (Jun 4, 2012)

re-peat @ Mon Jun 04 said:


> (I also believe, by the way, that the idea which says that only music which can survive the piano- or guitar-reduction can be great music, is total and utter nonsense. Stuffy, old-fashioned, narrow-minded and unimaginative nonsense.)


What are some examples of what you consider great music that can't be written as reductions?


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## KEnK (Jun 4, 2012)

Hi Richard-

Music by Harry Partch or Morton Subotnik
wouldn't translate well to a piano reduction.

Classical Indian music or Gamelan are other examples.
Cuban percussion music, Hendrix's "3rd Stone from the Sun"- lots of stuff really.

There's plenty of amazing music outside of the realm of traditional western thought.

(But I'm pretty sure that's not the kind of music the op is about)

Ken


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## re-peat (Jun 5, 2012)

rgames @ Tue Jun 05 said:


> What are some examples of what you consider great music that can't be written as reductions?


Where to begin? The list is endless really. Let’s see … off the top of my head ... Squarepusher’s “Feed Me Weird Things”, Jerry Goldsmith’s “Planet Of The Apes”, Eric Dolphy’s “Out To Lunch”, Kruder & Dorfmeister’s “K&D Sessions”, Frank Zappa’s “Läther” (or most any of his albums), John Coltrane “Live At The Village Vanguard”, Charles Mingus’ “The Great 1964 Paris Concert”, Anton Webern’s Bagatelles, T-Bone Walker’s “Stormy Monday”, Schoenberg's Klangfarbenmelodie-work such as "Five Pieces For Orchestra", Aphex Twin’s “Windowlicker”, Rory Gallagher “Live In Europe’, lots of John Zorn’s work, Jimi Hendrix’s “Electric Ladyland”, Ravel’s “Bolero”, Captain Beefheart’s “Trout Mask Replica”, Varèse’s “Ionisation” or “Poème Electronique”, large sections of Jon Brion’s “Eternal Sunshine” and “Punch Drunk Love” scores, The Allman Brothers “At The Fillmore East”, bits of Thomas Newman’s “The Salton Sea”, Miles Davis’ “Filles De Klimanjaro”, George Crumb's "Black Angels", Thelonious Monk’s “Brilliant Corners”, Bowie’s Berlin trilogy, Terry Bozzio’s “Chamber Works”, Stravinsky’s “Movements for Piano And Orchestra”, … I really could go on and on an on.

Sure, bits of some of these works can be condensed into a few staves, I guess, but you never can capture the essence and beauty of any of this music into written, let alone reduced parts.

----

K,

You appear to know a lot more about Dan’s particular situation and the hurdles he finds himself faced with, then I do, so there’s every chance you’re totally right about all of this.
Having said that, and based on what he himself said earlier on (his obvious fascination with and curiosity for electronic sounds, to be more specific), I still think that a doctor’s order of piano pieces is a potentially risky affair. A few sessions with NI Reaktor could just as well be a lot more beneficial, it seems to me. I can’t tell for sure of course, but it just might.
The thing is: if Dan isn’t a pianoplayer-type of composer (not every composer is, and I don’t really recall any music of Dan which might be an indication that he is that type of composer), if his musicality is better expressed in other ways, it seems to me that forcing him to write pianomusic, especially at a time when the focus and the self-confidence run a little low, might well have an adverse effect.
I mean, there’s still so much to explore musically, so much territory left barely visited. Especially if you have computer and some good software and a fascination for electronic music. Why make a man (or a woman) write pianopieces when he (or she) could be doing plenty of other, and far more enjoyable and interesting stuff? Why limit the options? Why narrow the road? Why clip the wings?

Anyway, like I said, I don’t really know Dan. Maybe a narrow road is exactly what he needs. All I know is that, if he has enough talent, discipline and commitment, he’ll get out of this. Sure of it.

I once got out of a creative rut (nothing as serious as what Dan seems to be going through, but there was a distinct feeling of boredom and fatigue nonetheless) by simply cleaning up and re-organizing the HD on which my sample libraries reside. Removing a couple I had no immediate use for, and re-installing a few I wanted to revisit. Something as trivial as that, and I was up and running again. Seriously. Amazing thing, the human mind, isn’t it?

_


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## Dan Mott (Jun 5, 2012)

Hey guys.

Great info here. I keep coming back.

I'm in the worst rut ever, creatively. I'm definitely sure of that. Don't know what to write, nor what road to take musically, NOR how to express what I want, but I'll keep trying.

Your support is nice. Thanks!


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## Darthmorphling (Jun 5, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Tue Jun 05 said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> Great info here. I keep coming back.
> 
> ...



I am a harsh critic of my own work and nothing seems to be good enough in my mind. This has caused me to never follow through with ideas that sometimes really are pretty interesting.

One of my favorite authors, James Rollins, uses a post-it on his monitor that says, " I am allowed to write crap today," when he feels writer's block coming on. Sometimes you can polish a turd.


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## rgames (Jun 5, 2012)

re-peat @ Tue Jun 05 said:


> Where to begin? The list is endless really. Let’s see … off the top of my head ... Squarepusher’s “Feed Me Weird Things”, Jerry Goldsmith’s “Planet Of The Apes”, Eric Dolphy’s “Out To Lunch”, Kruder & Dorfmeister’s “K&D Sessions”, Frank Zappa’s “Läther” (or most any of his albums), John Coltrane “Live At The Village Vanguard”, Charles Mingus’ “The Great 1964 Paris Concert”, Anton Webern’s Bagatelles, T-Bone Walker’s “Stormy Monday”, Schoenberg's Klangfarbenmelodie-work such as "Five Pieces For Orchestra", Aphex Twin’s “Windowlicker”, Rory Gallagher “Live In Europe’, lots of John Zorn’s work, Jimi Hendrix’s “Electric Ladyland”, Ravel’s “Bolero”, Captain Beefheart’s “Trout Mask Replica”, Varèse’s “Ionisation” or “Poème Electronique”, large sections of Jon Brion’s “Eternal Sunshine” and “Punch Drunk Love” scores, The Allman Brothers “At The Fillmore East”, bits of Thomas Newman’s “The Salton Sea”, Miles Davis’ “Filles De Klimanjaro”, George Crumb's "Black Angels", Thelonious Monk’s “Brilliant Corners”, Bowie’s Berlin trilogy, Terry Bozzio’s “Chamber Works”, Stravinsky’s “Movements for Piano And Orchestra”, … I really could go on and on an on.
> 
> Sure, bits of some of these works can be condensed into a few staves, I guess, but you never can capture the essence and beauty of any of this music into written, let alone reduced parts.



Except the pieces that are essentially sound design (which I omitted from the generalization) I don't see why these can't be written as reductions.

Sure, they sound different. But the musical ideas are unchanged.

rgames


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## KEnK (Jun 6, 2012)

re-peat @ Tue Jun 05 said:


> The thing is: if Dan isn’t a pianoplayer-type of composer (not every composer is, and I don’t really recall any music of Dan which might be an indication that he is that type of composer), if his musicality is better expressed in other ways, it seems to me that forcing him to write pianomusic, especially at a time when the focus and the self-confidence run a little low, might well have an adverse effect.
> I mean, there’s still so much to explore musically, so much territory left barely visited. Especially if you have computer and some good software and a fascination for electronic music. Why make a man (or a woman) write pianopieces when he (or she) could be doing plenty of other, and far more enjoyable and interesting stuff? Why limit the options? Why narrow the road? Why clip the wings?
> 
> Anyway, like I said, I don’t really know Dan. Maybe a narrow road is exactly what he needs.


Hi Peat-

What I liked about Richard's statement was this;
_So which instruments to write with? Doesn't really matter if your focus is the music._ 

Still think it's the best advice _to Dan_ on this thread.

Dan's current dilemma is routed in something many of us encounter now.
We can be overwhelmed by the amount of choices made available by the technology.
Further, I imagine he may very well be stuck in "Loop Mode",
cycling through a few bars, unable to decide if a certain knob sounds better a few degrees this way or that. 
Or doing the same w/ an endless parade of presets.

I'm old school, love the technology but am not bound by it.
I sit at a piano and hear cellos, bassoons, brass, flutes, saxes.
I can stretch my imagination a bit and even hear micro tones,
though this is obviously more on a mental plane that at the piano.
To me the Piano suggests everything, 
though I admit this is based on my association with it as a kind of "chalk board".

My prescription to Dan is based on the idea of using the imagination to write,
rather than relying on the tools. 
I'm not saying this should be the only way to write.
But by making decisions before you use the tools, 
you don't tend to get stuck in the quest for the perfect this or that.

So Dan- Try this and see if it's helpful.
Write 3 short piano pieces- 
Start w/ the structure or style first.
example - 1. Do an imitation of a Satie Gymnopedie
2. Base one on the minimalist ideas of Steve Reich or Philip Glass.
3. You can write the 3rd knowing it will be a trailer type piece.

USE ONLY A PIANO TONE FOR THE COMPOSITION PROCESS.
(ok, it doesn't have to be "piano" but it should "one patch",
I just personally think a piano sound is extremely flexible for this exercise)

Then, once the piece is finished- orchestrate, (or synthesize) 
Listen to your melody or bass line and decide on what voice it should be.
COMMIT to your desicion. 
If your 1st instinct was for Solo Violin, Bass Clarinet and Tuba,
QUICKLY, call up those patches and bounce it.
Just a basic sus patch. 
Don't finesse the voices at this time, (You can do that later)
better to do another version with different instruments.

Purposefully get into some "Speed Orchestrating" here.
The idea is to listen to your choices later-

If you do it this way, you could end up w/ to many versions of a piece,
rather than too many choices for a part.

k


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## Dan Mott (Jun 7, 2012)

Interesting! KEnK

Never though of that approach either.

Some of what you said made me realize my bad habbits. When ever I write a string line, I always start trying to make it perfect with CC automation, instead of continueing on. Whenever I write with piano I pay attention too much to fixing the samples rather than continueing. Whenever I'm trying to make a patch (mostly for something new keys wise) I spend too much time doing that and I end up not writing anything.

Infact, the best stuff I ever come up with and the best thing that inspires me is infact playing a real piano. I don't have one though, but my friend has a lovely Grand in his house and whenever I play it I just feel the music alot better, aswell as I am away from the computer. Though I cannot go over to his house and play it all the time obviously. Hmm..

Anyway, that exercise sounds great. I'll see what I come up with when I'm in music mode again.


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## JPQ (May 12, 2013)

i simply gets fiilings this thing is correct now. but i dont yet wrote movies or games or anything for other people needs.


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## Sasje (May 12, 2013)

Sometimes, it seems, one instrument invites another instrument. I rarely do the picking. Might sound a bit wooly, but when I'm stuck I ask the instrument: who is going to be your new friend? ...I get the answer and introduce the instruments to each other. Usually it works out great, and they play together. Sometimes they fight, and then I have to intervene. So don't listen to them all the time! :wink:


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## impressions (May 12, 2013)

rgames @ Tue Jun 05 said:


> Sure, bits of some of these works can be condensed into a few staves, I guess, but you never can capture the essence and beauty of any of this music into written, let alone reduced parts.
> 
> Except the pieces that are essentially sound design (which I omitted from the generalization) I don't see why these can't be written as reductions.
> 
> ...


small chime in,
take most songs from songwriting genre, when reduced to just a melody without any lyrics, and leave just 1 accompaniment(guitar/piano) only, pretty much sounds ridiculous. there are songs that are so powerful with the lyrics but their melody is like 10 thousands times re-re. just boring and stupid to listen as a piece of music.
the essence of the music is in the lyrics mostly or more correctly the connection between the melody and lyrics.
if we're talking pure musical ideas, you could also say that the beauty of the music is in the instrumentation and the different counter-parts connection with the harmony/melody, not just the melody/harmony basic thing. it doesn't have to be the basis of the theme/song/composition.

(p.s.
brilliant corners sounds amazing with just harmony/melody IMHO, don't know what you meant?)


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## Peter Alexander (May 14, 2013)

The source of your question arises from counterpoint where you have four registers for voices (Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Bass - you can look these up) and five for the orchestra (sub bass, low, medium, high and very high - see Spectrotone Chart).

After you've written your melody and harmonized it, the first question, a writer's question, is, "What are you trying to say?" Or, "What do you want to say?"

Not musically but with paper and pencil write down the answer to the above question.

The next question is, "What register best expresses what you're trying to say?" Don't guess! Instead play the melody in each register. Where does it "sit well" for you? 

Then look at your instrumental choices to see which instruments are in that range. 

Then play the instruments in that range and see how it sits with you. It may not be an immediate decision. You may have to think about it a bit and try a few different things to find what comes closes to expressing what you're trying to say.


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