# Mac Pro 5.1 in 2017?



## wayne_rowley (Jun 17, 2017)

Hi all!

I am considering upgrade options for my 2011 MacBook Pro. It has served me well, but I am starting to reach the limits of the machine. I would prefer to stay with a Mac as I like Logic, but I am looking into PC options as well.

Budget is a consideration and I am a hobbyist. I run Logic Pro X with Komplete and some additional orchestral libraries. I want some expansion capabilities in regards to memory, storage and some more CPU power.

Am I foolish to consider a refurbished 2010 Mac Pro 5.1 in 2017? Macbank seem to supply them for good prices with a warranty. It would work out cheaper than a new PC and much cheaper than a new Mac.

I have some additional questions:

- Which CPU? The prices for 3.06Ghz X5675s are good, it how would this compare with the 3.33 or 3.46?

- 6 core or 12 core?

- How noisey are the towers?

- I've heard about some issues with PCI cards and Sierra. Is there a problem with these?

- Am I going to be limited in single core CPU power for some software?

- What would be the likely lifespan of such a machine, already 7 years old? My MacBook Pro is 6 years old now. I would ideally like to get at least 3-4 years of useful life out of any new computer, ideally more.

Many thanks,
Wayne


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 17, 2017)

I just bought one. 6 core 3.4ghz, 64gig ram. It was refurbished to allow the latest os to be installed and cost me £1500.

I'm starting to think that I should have gone 12 core as my first project I've started with it is already pushing it (had to increase the buffer size a couple of times already). The 12 core would have cost me around £2000.

As far as noise is concerned, it's not too bad. Hardly notice it most of the time (although these days I tend to work mostly with headphones as my music making is confined to the early hours of the morning).

Lifespan is hard to say. Obviously Apple will stop supporting it but it'll be while after until developers stop supporting the old operating system. Even then you'll still be able to use it, just won't be able to upgrade the software. I don't think that's such a big deal TBH.

For me it was a no brainier. Can't afford (or don't want to pay) for a new Mac and i really don't get on with windows and like using Logic. The old 2010 machines are still pretty powerful even by today's standards.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Jun 17, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> I just bought one. 6 core 3.4ghz, 64gig ram. It was refurbished to allow the latest os to be installed and cost me £1500.
> 
> I'm starting to think that I should have gone 12 core as my first project I've started with it is already pushing it (had to increase the buffer size a couple of times already). The 12 core would have cost me around £2000.
> 
> ...


I run a:

12-Core 2012 Mac Pro 2x2.4GHz CPUs
Sierra 10.12.5
64GB RAM
Sapphire AMD 7950 for Mac 3GB GPU
CalDigit FASTA-6U3Pro Dual SATA Port, USB3, eSATA
SSD for macOS 250GB
Documents, Media, Samples and Heavy Samples HDD (4 drives)
Samples and Heavy Samples SSD (2 SSDs)
1TB External LaCie Drive 7200rpm

Focusrite Saffire Pro 24

And my system flies. I have used it for an ESX Server for VMware Labs as well. And right now I am even using it as a Virtual VMware lab where i have virtual ESXi Hosts. So it is a powerhouse.

With VE PRO it becomes a powerful Master system for my Windows 10 Slave!!

So yes, the machine I bought in 2014 for £1,900, is still a beast.
I can still double the RAM and put up-to 3.46GHz CPUs in there.
And better GPUs, more PCI-e storage and even a PCI-E SSD with a PCI-E card


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 17, 2017)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> I run a:
> 
> 12-Core 2010 Mac Pro 2x2.4GHz CPUs
> Sierra 10.12.5
> ...




Yeah I'm thinking of getting a 1tb ssd for my pci slot to use with HWO. Will set me back £500 so I'm still at the thinking stage right now.


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## wayne_rowley (Jun 17, 2017)

Thanks for the replies. The systems I am looking at are:

- 3.06Ghz 6 core, 32GB RAM, 256GB SSD + 2TB HD, ATI 5770 1GB, USB3 card: £995
- 3.33Ghz 6 core, 32GB RAM, 256GB SSD + 2TB HD, ATI 5770 1GB, USB3 card: £1,150
- 3.46Ghz 6 core, 64GB RAM, 480GB SSD + 2TB HD, ATI 5770 1GB, USB3 card: £1,540

I'm wondering if the 3.46Ghz is worth the +£500 from the 3.06Ghz...


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## wayne_rowley (Jun 17, 2017)

There are also some 8 core 2008 models going for around £600. They are less appealing as the single core speed is less than my current laptop.


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## Prockamanisc (Jun 17, 2017)

You could take that money and build a slave, bit by bit, over the next year or so. Then I would save up and just wait until the new modular Mac Pros come out next year.

You'll buy an old computer and limp along for 2 years until you buy another one, then another. It's better to take all that money and just buy one that really rocks and use it for 5-10 years until it's really outdated.


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 17, 2017)

wayne_rowley said:


> Thanks for the replies. The systems I am looking at are:
> 
> - 3.06Ghz 6 core, 32GB RAM, 256GB SSD + 2TB HD, ATI 5770 1GB, USB3 card: £995
> - 3.33Ghz 6 core, 32GB RAM, 256GB SSD + 2TB HD, ATI 5770 1GB, USB3 card: £1,150
> ...




Ha, that last one is the exact one I bought. Macbankpro right...?


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 17, 2017)

Prockamanisc said:


> You could take that money and build a slave, bit by bit, over the next year or so. Then I would save up and just wait until the new modular Mac Pros come out next year.
> 
> You'll buy an old computer and limp along for 2 years until you buy another one, then another. It's better to take all that money and just buy one that really rocks and use it for 5-10 years until it's really outdated.




I would like to think a 6 core Mac Pro with 64 gig ram will do more than "limp along for 2 years"...


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## wayne_rowley (Jun 17, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Ha, that last one is the exact one I bought. Macbankpro right...?



Yes...  It looks like quite a good deal and the 1 year warranty is appealing. Were you happy with the product/service?


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 17, 2017)

Only had it a week, but yeah seems to be pretty good. A lot of bang for your buck for sure.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Jun 17, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Yeah I'm thinking of getting a 1tb ssd for my pci slot to use with HWO. Will set me back £500 so I'm still at the thinking stage right now.


HAHAHA

I do like the thinking stage  Where you can dream about system specs you cannot own 
Just don't use your Credit Card at that stage 

I have my HWO on my PC, with a 500GB SSD (Strings HS, HH Harp, HSS HW Solo Strings), 2x120GB RAID (Brass HB), and 250GB SSD (Percussion HOP and Woodwinds HWW)

My PC Slave is all my EastWest

Mac Pro is Kontakt (NI Komplete 10U, 8DIO, Cinesamples, Heavyocity, Output) , Spectrasonics, U-he, Waves, FXpansion etc


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 17, 2017)

The UK prices appear to be about 2x US.



> Am I foolish to consider a refurbished 2010 Mac Pro 5.1 in 2017?



If so, you're in highly dubious company: moi.

I don't know how large the sessions you're running are, but my main one is about 150 tracks - and many of those are large keyswitch instruments. The 12-core 3.46 does just fine with that (not that I have them all going at once, of course).



> - 6 core or 12 core?



If you can afford the 12-core, it's worth it.



> - How noisy are the towers?



That depends on how many spinning hard drives you have going. The machines are not noisy until they start getting hot and the fan starts blazing (there are monitors inside the case to regulate it).

My machines are on the other side of a wall, so I wouldn't necessarily notice that happening, but I've never seen it going on when I open the trap door to get at the computers.



> - I've heard about some issues with PCI cards and Sierra. Is there a problem with these?



What problems? What PCI cards?



> - Am I going to be limited in single core CPU power for some software?



Logic makes good use of hyperthreading, so its CPU meter displays 24 cores (if you have a 12-core machine) - meaning it supports 24 processing threads. I still don't understand how it allocates processing very well, but you can get single-core spikes... unless you select a No Output track at the same time as the one you're working on.

Or unless you host all your instruments in Vienna Ensemble Pro.

Bottom line, the more MHz, the better.



> - What would be the likely lifespan of such a machine, already 7 years old?



You never know, but I have a 20-year-old PowerMac 9600 in use as an editor/librarian. I don't worry about the 5,1 blowing up - if for no other reason than that you can find used replacement parts and pop them in. There's no shortage of motherboards on eBay, for example, selling in the $150 range.


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## synthpunk (Jun 17, 2017)

Just keep the inside as clean as possible and you should be good for a while.



Puzzlefactory said:


> Only had it a week, but yeah seems to be pretty good. A lot of bang for your buck for sure.


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 18, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Just keep the inside as clean as possible and you should be good for a while.



How do you go about that? Do literally op n it up and get in there with a vacuum cleaner?


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## Michael Antrum (Jun 18, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Yeah I'm thinking of getting a 1tb ssd for my pci slot to use with HWO. Will set me back £500 so I'm still at the thinking stage right now.



No it won't. All you need is a 1tb SSd £ 270'ish and either of one of these:



http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/322494996069?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/322494996069?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&amp;ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT)

They are both around £ 30. Job done for £ 300.

(I have both in my 4,1 - flashed to a 5,1)

Best, Mike

Edit: Funnily enough I got these and VE PRo primarily for HWO Diamond too. I have owned my 2009 Mac pro since it was new and used to use it for business purposes. I put 64gb in it (£ 160 from eBay dealer), a couple of SSD cards and it's now a musical VST powerhouse of throbbing awesomeness. As I'm a Yorkshireman, that fact that it was a bloody cheap way of doing it was a bonus too !


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## Michael Antrum (Jun 18, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> How do you go about that? Do literally op n it up and get in there with a vacuum cleaner?



Just use a can of compressed air and blow the dust out on a regular basis


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## synthpunk (Jun 18, 2017)

yep, your best price on canned air will be on a pack of four at Costco or Sams club. A Paint brush can also come in handy.

Do it outside so you do not recycle the dust in your room. When you spray the fans, gently insert a pen into the blades this will prevent the bearings from getting messed up.

Or look on your local Craigslist for a used air compressor or get one of these.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01BI4UQK0/ref=mp_s_a_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1497790278&sr=8-4&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=computer+air+duster&dpPl=1&dpID=41oVo6kY56L&ref=plSrch

They will pay for themselves quite quickly rather than canned air every few months.

The cheese graters pop open quite easily, take a look inside and marvel at the mind of Steve. (although I do understand the G5 was the last one he designed).



mikeybabes said:


> Just use a can of compressed air and blow the dust out on a regular basis


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 18, 2017)

I too am a Yorkshireman by birth, so that must be it. (Halifax.)


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 19, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> No it won't. All you need is a 1tb SSd £ 270'ish and either of one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Sorry for hyjacking the thread, but would this be compatible with 2010 Mac Pro?

http://uk.crucial.com/gbr/en/ct1050...-_-uk&ef_id=WUex8gAAAfUq0vre:20170619111355:s


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## Morning Coffee (Jun 19, 2017)

Personally I think those old, silver cheese grater Mac Pros' are selling at ridiculous prices (any Mac is too expensive really!). I was lucky enough to buy a Mac Pro 3,1 cheaply, but the ram for it was expensive and I don't think I can upgrade to OS X Sierra.

If you do buy the 2010 Mac Pro, I would suggest using the newer M.2 type SSD's and an appropriate M.2 type PCIe adapter, rather than a standard 2.5 inch SSD for your sample libraries. I think that is the best way to get good read and write speeds on an older machine, and also to extend it's life by a few more years, but the quickest M.2 SSD's are expensive.


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## MarcelM (Jun 19, 2017)

Morning Coffee said:


> Personally I think those old, silver cheese grater Mac Pros' are selling at ridiculous prices (any Mac is too expensive really!). I was lucky enough to buy a Mac Pro 3,1 cheaply, but the ram for it was expensive and I don't think I can upgrade to OS X Sierra.
> 
> If you do buy the 2010 Mac Pro, I would suggest using the newer M.2 type SSD's and an appropriate M.2 type PCIe adapter, rather than a standard 2.5 inch SSD for your sample libraries. I think that is the best way to get good read and write speeds on an older machine, and also to extend it's life by a few more years, but the quickest M.2 SSD's are expensive.



actually you can install sierra on a 3.1.

http://dosdude1.com/sierrapatch.html


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## Morning Coffee (Jun 19, 2017)

Heroix said:


> actually you can install sierra on a 3.1.
> 
> http://dosdude1.com/sierrapatch.html



Lovely, I'll keep that in mind if I need to upgrade in future. Thanks for the link!


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## Michael Antrum (Jun 19, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Sorry for hyjacking the thread, but would this be compatible with 2010 Mac Pro?
> 
> http://uk.crucial.com/gbr/en/ct1050...-_-uk&ef_id=WUex8gAAAfUq0vre:20170619111355:s



It's just an SSD with a SATA interface - so yes it absolutely should work. Remember, you are covered by distance selling regulations if you order it online, so if it isn't suitable for any reason at all you can return it - but I would be frankly amazed if it didn't. ( I have a 1tb crucial SSD in my Mac Pro ).


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 19, 2017)

wayne_rowley said:


> Hi all!
> 
> I am considering upgrade options for my 2011 MacBook Pro. It has served me well, but I am starting to reach the limits of the machine. I would prefer to stay with a Mac as I like Logic, but I am looking into PC options as well.



What are the specs of the MacBook (Ram, internal drive, etc)? If it's 16GB Ram, you could build a robust PC (for less than the cost of that 2010 Mac P ro) and use it as a slave. Maybe it's just me, but I cringe when I see people shelling out for old technology. That Mac Pro is already 7 years old, no USB3, no Thunderbolt, and is only SATA II. By the time you mess around with adding PCI cards and SSD's you could probably nab a new (or newer) MacBook Pro or iMac.


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 19, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> It's just an SSD with a SATA interface - so yes it absolutely should work. Remember, you are covered by distance selling regulations if you order it online, so if it isn't suitable for any reason at all you can return it - but I would be frankly amazed if it didn't. ( I have a 1tb crucial SSD in my Mac Pro ).




The reason I ask is that Apple have been a bit weird with their firmware updates. I tried installing a second hard drive in my old Mac mini (that was advertised as compatible) and it wouldn't recognise it. Took it to an computer repair shop and they told me that apple have made changes so that a lot of third party drives are no longer compatible. 

Maybe Mac Pros are different as I know the minis have same insides as the laptops so maybe apple were just restricting what could be done with those machines rather than the desktops...? I don't know.


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## Michael Antrum (Jun 19, 2017)

Sounds a bit odd to me - I always thought that SATA 3 is SATA 3.

But I'm 99.9% that it will work. When I get home tonight I'll tell you what Crucial SSD it is that I have.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 20, 2017)

> Personally I think those old, silver cheese grater Mac Pros' are selling at ridiculous prices



They are, unless you find one on ebay for a reasonable price - in which case they're a very good deal. For example:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-46-12-core-Mac-Pro-64GB-Radeon-HD-7870-2GB-2TB-USB-3-0-/263041962808?hash=item3d3e85d338:g:uIYAAOSwvjdZRKMB


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## topaz (Aug 13, 2017)

I have just been in the same dilemma, I want to give my daughter my Mac mini i7 2.6 and was almost ready to get a custom built PC from scan.

But the price began to get out of control, I then started thinking about having
to convert all my drives to ntfs and where to put all my data while that happened.

So in the end I took the plunge and ordered a 2010 Mac Pro 3.06 12 core with 256GB SSD and 32GB ram and usb3 card from Macbank.

Let's see how that goes


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## wayne_rowley (Aug 14, 2017)

topaz said:


> I have just been in the same dilemma, I want to give my daughter my Mac mini i7 2.6 and was almost ready to get a custom built PC from scan.
> 
> But the price began to get out of control, I then started thinking about having
> to convert all my drives to ntfs and where to put all my data while that happened.
> ...



I'd be interested to learn how you get on. For the moment I have upped the RAM in my 2011 MBP to 16GB in the hope I can eek a little more life out of it, with the idea of going for either a 32GB MBP (if they bring out such a beast) or perhaps a re-furbished 6-core trash can.

Wayne


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## Musicam (Aug 14, 2017)

Imac = Humidity. The screen after three years appears with white spots. I had two imacs and the same. I refuse to buy the new imac, more expensive for one soldered computer.


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## Publius (Aug 14, 2017)

Morning Coffee said:


> Personally I think those old, silver cheese grater Mac Pros' are selling at ridiculous prices (any Mac is too expensive really!)....



I recently sold my 2010 and 2012 I think they went for about $7-800 maxed out with ram and upgraded cpu. I started at over $1000 and dropped the price weekly till they sold. I noticed others asking upwards of $1,500 for the same or less. Moral of the story: There are prices people are asking and prices people are paying. Don't let some folks asking unrealistically high prices shape your opinion of what an item is actually selling for.

On another note: I have some apple cinema monitors from a few years back. They are sort of air breathing devices as air is blown past the monitor screen to cool it. It has a removable glass screen for cleaning but there is a screen behind the 'underscreen' that cannot be cleaned. I bought the monitors from a smoker/incense burner and they had a bit of clouding from inhaling that smoke that could not be cleaned off.

If the imac does this, something to keep in mind.

Personally comfortable building/modifying windows type pcs since the 386 was released, so I like the idea of a separate desktop and monitor--so if one part breaks I can just fix or replace that. I moved my daw off mac earlier this year and I only regret buying apple only software like logic which could not be moved to a windows pc.

I think the cheese grater is a great computer in general. I did notice a post somewhere where dude's cheese grater would not boot, and it was maybe a motherboard or power supply issue. Well, that's the concern--no way to replace the power supply or mobo on one of those wonderfully and artistically over-engineered cheese graters without cannibalizing another one--to my knowledge.


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## Symfoniq (Aug 15, 2017)

The cheese grater Mac Pros were fantastic. If Apple still made them, I might still be a Mac user.


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## Publius (Aug 15, 2017)

Symfoniq said:


> The cheese grater Mac Pros were fantastic. If Apple still made them, I might still be a Mac user.


Agreed. Apple has created uncertainty about the future of their workstation-class computers and I resolved that uncertainty by going to pc. As I said, I build my own, and I have a psychological barrier that I will never spend more than $1,500 for a new computer, and normally I spend about $1,100. So, a trash can or whatever Cook-promised mythical phoenix rises from this neglected product line at some unspecified (but soon  ) future date will likely be thousands more than I want to spend anyway.

A used 2010 or 2012 mac pro is sort of hardware competitive even right now to a new pc based build of equivalent horsepower, but as I said, when it breaks, not a great end game.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2017)

My psychological barrier is $2500 or at a stretch $3000, since that's how I've been trained over the past 30 years.



> when it breaks, not a great end game.



Well, that's with any computer that's out of warranty.

But if it breaks, not when, you can go on eBay and replace the part. For example:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...+5.TRS1&_nkw=mac+pro+5,1+motherboard&_sacat=0

It isn't a given that it's going to break anytime soon, however. Among the machines in my garage are a Mac Plus from 1986, and a IIcx and IIci from I think 1989 that still fire up.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2017)

I should add that I just took a relative's dead 2-year-old MacBook Pro to Les Mannus (L.A. area Mac repair guru). He's going to charge about $700 to replace the corroded motherboard, presumably from a spill. Les' is the right price; the Apple Store wanted $1800.

Point being, the end game with a new machine is even worse. Yes that's a laptop, not a desktop, but the current desktops aren't built to be serviced either!


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## synthpunk (Aug 15, 2017)

Not me, I don't miss having a $100 electric bill 



Symfoniq said:


> The cheese grater Mac Pros were fantastic. If Apple still made them, I might still be a Mac user.


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## Publius (Aug 15, 2017)

Fair enough. I may have over-estimated the difficulties of getting replacement parts for a 5.1 mac pro. For a pc, I am much more familiar with replacing parts. The power supply, video card and disks are replaceable with generic parts. If the mobo goes, for me generally its an excuse to upgrade.  Just this year, though, I had a lot invested in my xeon cpu and replaced a failed mobo. I am talking about mid tower systems here. Laptops--I bricked one when trying to upgrade the ram, so in general I don't feel I can mess with the innards.

I didn't feel my 5,1 drew a lot of power--or enough to worry about the cost anyway. I put in sleep mode when I wasn't using it--it stayed on for months at a time. It wasn't noisy either--that surprised me.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 15, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I should add that I just took a relative's dead 2-year-old MacBook Pro to Les Mannus (L.A. area Mac repair guru). He's going to charge about $700 to replace the corroded motherboard, presumably from a spill. Les' is the right price; the Apple Store wanted $1800.
> 
> Point being, the end game with a new machine is even worse. Yes that's a laptop, not a desktop, but the current desktops aren't built to be serviced either!



Another reason to get this.....

https://www.apple.com/support/products/mac.html


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## synthpunk (Aug 15, 2017)

Isn't there a way to get longer than three years as well I thought I read here someplace?




Wolfie2112 said:


> Another reason to get this.....
> 
> https://www.apple.com/support/products/mac.html


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Not me, I don't miss having a $100 electric bill



Man. I wish our electric bills were only $100!

And our house is small.

***
Wolfie, have you read my numerous posts about this, i.e. are you winding me up?

Well, I'll assume that not everyone hangs on every one of my words and respond: AppleCare and every extended warranty is a rip-off.

In this case the AppleCare would have paid off. But the bet would have been $379 that the machine is going to break exactly between the second and third year you own it *and* that it's going to cost a meaningful amount more than the insurance. It does happen, but the odds are very low. And you'd only have saved $321.

Over time and spanning multiple products, you'll come out way ahead if you refuse every extended warranty even if you do get hit with an expensive repair. I never have, by the way, and I'm 61 years old.

The golden rule of insurance is only cover what you can't afford to pay. Your house, your car, liability, sure. But insurance companies make money because they know the odds are in their favor.


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## synthpunk (Aug 15, 2017)

I think the power usage issue is real and I'm not a personally a real tree hugger although I do care and love our environment. But we did see quite a reduction in power compared to our old G5 and cheese graters when we went with the Vader helmet Mac pro's. I think someone measured the difference was said it was three to one difference. So if you take $25 a month compared to $75 a month to run your Mac Pro x a year that's a $600 Savings in power consumption.

Sleep is an interesting idea though I thought I've always been told over the years not to put the max into sleep as it can cause other issues with hard drive power cycles wear, Etc any thoughts on that ?

If there is a noise issue that can easily be fixed by placing the unit in another room, closet, or isolation box.



Publius said:


> Fair enough. I may have over-estimated the difficulties of getting replacement parts for a 5.1 mac pro. For a pc, I am much more familiar with replacing parts. The power supply, video card and disks are replaceable with generic parts. If the mobo goes, for me generally its an excuse to upgrade.  Just this year, though, I had a lot invested in my xeon cpu and replaced a failed mobo. I am talking about mid tower systems here. Laptops--I bricked one when trying to upgrade the ram, so in general I don't feel I can mess with the innards.
> 
> I didn't feel my 5,1 drew a lot of power--or enough to worry about the cost anyway. I put in sleep mode when I wasn't using it--it stayed on for months at a time. It wasn't noisy either--that surprised me.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2017)

The power issue is very real, and it's a good argument for the new machines. But it's not going to be the difference between $25 and $75/month.

I'd have to look up how much we'd save, but this is interesting:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201796


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## synthpunk (Aug 15, 2017)

HA! Yeah your rates and Cali are a little bit higher than Floriga I believe. Actually our average monthly bill is about 125 to $130 a month, so I fibbed a little bit : ) but in all honesty it was higher when we had a cheese grater around.

AppleCare is a bit like insurance when you don't have it something always happens it seems  but also remember you're lucky to have a local Tech who has great rates a lot of other people around the world do not have that luxury if something happens.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> Man. I wish our electric bills were only $100!
> 
> And our house is small.
> 
> ...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2017)

Actually this is interesting.

I just looked up our power bill, and LADWP charges us a little under $.18 per kW/hr.

Let's see if my decimal places are right.

The Al Mac Pro uses 100W. Let's say it's on 12 hours a day, or 360 hours a month.

So it uses 36kWh a month.

That's $6.48 a month, and the black Mac Pro uses 40% of that, or $2.60.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 15, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Man. I wish our electric bills were only $100!
> 
> And our house is small.
> 
> ...



I'm not trying to wind anyone up. I just feel Apple Care is a no-brainer when you're already shelling out thousands for a new (or refurbished) Mac. It's a small price to pay; if you already paid $4k+ for the machine, another $350 isn't going to break the bank....but a new motherboard certainly will. That also includes unlimited phone support, and services at an Apple Store...they recently backed up my whole system and did a clean install of Sierra. That's just Me though, it's not for everyone. I like the piece of mind, especially when traveling. I can be just about anywhere in the world with the MacBook and I'm covered (only has to be an authorized Apple shop). I mean, on a $10K+ Mac Pro, is it worth the gamble??

I even buy the warranty on a new TV. At BestBuy, even if there's a pin-sized black pixel, I'm covered. I've had two 60" screens replaced this way, no questions asked (and the warranty only cost me $150 for a $2000 TV, 4 years coverage).

Anyways, that's just me.


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## Symfoniq (Aug 15, 2017)

Publius said:


> I didn't feel my 5,1 drew a lot of power--or enough to worry about the cost anyway. I put in sleep mode when I wasn't using it--it stayed on for months at a time. It wasn't noisy either--that surprised me.



Neither of the two generations I owned had an appreciable impact on my power bill, either, though electricity is admittedly very cheap where I live.

In any case, current Xeons are more efficient, and there's no reason a modern cheese grater Mac Pro would use inordinate amounts of power.


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## babylonwaves (Aug 15, 2017)

let's put it another way: an update from 5.1 -> 6.1, replacing a 30" cinema display with a modern LED based one and using LED instead of halogen lights cut my power bill in half.

power consumption MP 6.1 (quad): idle 43W, CPU Max 205W
power consumption MP 5.1 (quad 2010): idle 125W, CPU Max 218W

and since a sequencer is mostly idle, unless you never edit stuff and you always playback under full load you can see that the power consumption is easily cut in half.

i'm comparing those two because they have a similar performance. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201796

and by far, the dirtiest pig in the house was the cinema display with constant 150W consumption.


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## synthpunk (Aug 15, 2017)

I wish I could get my Cinemas out of me equation but unfortunately the newer monitors in most cases hurt my eyes too much after viewing them for just a little bit of time. Great tip though.




babylonwaves said:


> let's put it another way: an update from 5.1 -> 6.1, replacing a 30" cinema display with a modern LED based one and using LED instead of halogen lights cut my power bill in half.
> 
> power consumption MP 6.1 (quad): idle 43W, CPU Max 205W
> power consumption MP 5.1 (quad 2010): idle 125W, CPU Max 218W
> ...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2017)

You're right, the Al Mac Pro is 125W or even 145W. I figured 100W.

So my figures are off. But it's all an estimate anyway, and it's going to be much less than 12 hours a day if you put your computer to sleep when you're not sitting in front of it.

Power conservation is certainly important, but economically it doesn't make a huge amount of difference. Putting LED bulbs in all your lamps will make a much bigger difference, because it adds up.


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## jononotbono (Aug 15, 2017)

Well I had a word with myself regarding the Mac Pro 5,1 and decided to treat it to 96gb of brand new RAM. I will get to the bottom of my computer problems


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## Publius (Aug 15, 2017)

babylonwaves said:


> ....and by far, the dirtiest pig in the house was the cinema display with constant 150W consumption.



I have a couple of old cinemas and they are power hogs. I can feel the heat coming off the screen of that thing. Fortunately my wife uses the other one for work, so its not on that much. Just for fun, I put the power meter on it and it draws 80 watts--more or less the same as my xeon.


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## babylonwaves (Aug 15, 2017)

Publius said:


> I have a couple of old cinemas and they are power hogs. I can feel the heat coming off the screen of that thing. Fortunately my wife uses the other one for work, so its not on that much. Just for fun, I put the power meter on it and it draws 80 watts--more or less the same as my xeon.


the power meter on my 5.1 + 30" cinema display showed 700W in average. with the 6.1 and a samsung LED screen of a similar size it shows a little over 200W. I don't know why the difference is so big but my suspicion is that the 32GB RAM I had in my 5.1 was "dirty" as well. i mean, the RAM had a head sink ... and the old graphic card didn't help either i suppose.


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## Publius (Aug 16, 2017)

babylonwaves said:


> the power meter on my 5.1 + 30" cinema display showed 700W in average. with the 6.1 and a samsung LED screen of a similar size it shows a little over 200W. I don't know why the difference is so big but my suspicion is that the 32GB RAM I had in my 5.1 was "dirty" as well. i mean, the RAM had a head sink ... and the old graphic card didn't help either i suppose.



I see A1082 cinema display is 23 inch rated at 90 watts--probably the one I have. The 30 inch model rated at 150 watts--according to a wiki page. I don't know what my 5,1 power draw was as I don't have it anymore. I had a 1,1 CMP and its ram did have large heat sinks on it. 700 watts is a lot of power for a computer setup, that's for sure.

My thought is that when I see one of those graphics cards with an elaborate fan/heat sink assembly, its going to draw a lot of power.


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## synthpunk (Aug 16, 2017)

Did you guys ever see the insides of the old SJ designed final G5 tower? Wasn't there a liquid cooling unit in there along with fans numbering in the teen's?

I do understand why you guys like your 5.1 Towers though. Looking inside and seeing the flexibility and connectors inside is nice to have. These days it's all hubs and adapters which is not something I think SJ would really care for.



Publius said:


> I see A1082 cinema display is 23 inch rated at 90 watts--probably the one I have. The 30 inch model rated at 150 watts--according to a wiki page. I don't know what my 5,1 power draw was as I don't have it anymore. I had a 1,1 CMP and its ram did have large heat sinks on it. 700 watts is a lot of power for a computer setup, that's for sure.
> 
> My thought is that when I see one of those graphics cards with an elaborate fan/heat sink assembly, its going to draw a lot of power.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 16, 2017)

According to this, the 30" Cinema Display maxes out at 150W. I actually keep mine all the way dim, so it's undoubtedly less.

http://www.andovercg.com/datasheets/apple-cinema-display-specs.pdf

I don't know whether more modern LCD monitors are more efficient.

How many watts is your power amp, by the way?


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## jononotbono (Aug 17, 2017)

Today is a happy day for my 5,1


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## Tatu (Aug 17, 2017)

I miss mac and logic pro x :(


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Aug 17, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Today is a happy day for my 5,1


I sure hope so :/


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## Kaufmanmoon (Oct 9, 2017)

Rather than starting a new thread I’d ask here.
A 3.0ghz 10 core trashcan (10 core) 
Has anyone come across one before? It’s on sale from a legit company but wanted to know if anyone has one ?


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## wayne_rowley (Oct 9, 2017)

Kaufmanmoon said:


> Rather than starting a new thread I’d ask here.
> A 3.0ghz 10 core trashcan (10 core)
> Has anyone come across one before? It’s on sale from a legit company but wanted to know if anyone has one ?



As far as I know the Vader Mac pros come in 4, 6, 8 or 12 core... not 10 core, so it sounds as if this one has been modded.


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## wayne_rowley (Oct 9, 2017)

Still undecided. I put an extra 8gb of RAM in my MBP, but still thinking of a Mac Pro 5,1. What makes me question is cost for the age of the machine, single core performance, size and noise levels. Also thinking of a Vader model but they are also expensive and not expandable. Quieter though, I think.

Ahah! Indecisiveness...

It seems the choice between old and new Mac is between slow single core/fast multi core vs. fast single core/slow-ish (no faster) multi core. Not to mention the need for dongles with the new stuff.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 9, 2017)

Well, the pace has slowed since the beginning of the digital revolution, but one rule still holds: replace what you have only when you need the new one, because something better will come out right after it.

The value of piece of equipment used to plummet precisely while you were carrying it in from your car, before opening the box. It's not quite that bad anymore, but you get the point.


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## synthpunk (Oct 9, 2017)

most likely started life at a 4 core then was user or dealer upgraded to a 10 core Intel processor. As someone else posted above there is no 10 core factory option that I know of. Do your due diligence.



Kaufmanmoon said:


> Rather than starting a new thread I’d ask here.
> A 3.0ghz 10 core trashcan (10 core)
> Has anyone come across one before? It’s on sale from a legit company but wanted to know if anyone has one ?


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## Kaufmanmoon (Oct 9, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> most likely started life at a 4 core then was user or dealer upgraded to a 10 core Intel processor. As someone else posted above there is no 10 core factory option that I know of. Do your due diligence.


Thanks, that's my concern.
Yep, like I said I know the company and there's a few 10 cores about online. I'd rather grab an 8 core. I shall play the waiting game


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Oct 10, 2017)

wayne_rowley said:


> Still undecided. I put an extra 8gb of RAM in my MBP, but still thinking of a Mac Pro 5,1. What makes me question is cost for the age of the machine, single core performance, size and noise levels. Also thinking of a Vader model but they are also expensive and not expandable. Quieter though, I think.
> 
> Ahah! Indecisiveness...
> 
> It seems the choice between old and new Mac is between slow single core/fast multi core vs. fast single core/slow-ish (no faster) multi core. Not to mention the need for dongles with the new stuff.


From my own tests and reports from others, I would say if you are going to be running Cubase Pro (9 at least not sure about earlier versions), do not go with macOS. I found on two completely different systems running both Windows 8.1 and 10 that Cubase Pro was more efficient on resources and processing than on macOS on either machine.

One was my Mac Pro 5,1 running Windows with BOOTCAMP and the other was my i7 Custom PC, built for performance and macOS compatibility running macOS Sierra with Clover bootloader and of course Windows 8.1 and 10 on the system also

Both rigs run on SSDs
Using a Saffire Pro 24 connected to a fully plug'n'play LSI FireWire 800 PCI-e Card on both OSs

On Windows I was able to run at much lower buffers also


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 10, 2017)

The problem is that you have to work on Windows.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Oct 10, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The problem is that you have to work on Windows.


As a user of both OSs and someone who works in IT for a career, yes I agree this is an issue.

That is one of a number of reasons I stayed with Logic Pro X.
Windows is fine for slaves, but the amount of time it takes to setup for audio production is just too much wasted time to configure everything


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## lpuser (Oct 10, 2017)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> Windows is fine for slaves, but the amount of time it takes to setup for audio production is just too much wasted time to configure everything



Not only that, forced upgrades make Windows 10 probably the worst operating system ever. The amount of issues we (and our clients) have with Windows 10 is overwhelming and I hate to even run it even in my virtual machine.
Fortunately, there was a ruling in Germany that will (hopefully) force Microsoft to stop tampering with the systems we are using - until this happens, there is absolutely no way I will ever go back to Windows for music production. In hindsight, I have to thank Apple for buying Emagic back in the days


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## ThePrioryStudio (Nov 4, 2017)

Late to the party... 

I own a 12 core 2.93Ghz, 48Gb RAM (Soon to upgrade to 64Gb) 250Gb SSD for boot, OSX Sierra, 3 x 2TB Seagate barracuda SATA drives in RAID 0 giving me 6TB for my samples. Audio comes from a PCIe Lynx audio AES16e card 

It's a relatively quiet machine, no excess fan noise although the PSU has just started to whistle. My machines are in a machine room so it's not so much an issue. 

Logic X runs very well with about 300 tracks, VEP 6 runs on the same machine and I have about 17 instances which I connect and disconnect when required. I do have a 2008 MP 8 core which also runs VEP but that machine is far noisier than the 12 core. The 5,1 MP is a great machine and I'd buy another 1 tomorrow if I could.


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## wayne_rowley (Nov 6, 2017)

What is single core performance like? That’s the remaining question and concern I have. From benchmarks a 3.46 will have similar single core speed to my MacBook 2011, perhaps a tad faster.

I sometimes find single core speed to be a bottleneck now, and buying a Mac Pro with similar performance makes me wonder if I will regret the purchase after a year or so, even with faster multi core and greater expand-ability.


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## synthpunk (Nov 6, 2017)

Plenty of Cheese graters still working wonderfully in the field.

Just keep in mind a few things. No Thunderbolt, at some point OSX and Logic updates will stop running, and your power bill


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Nov 7, 2017)

lpuser said:


> Not only that, forced upgrades make Windows 10 probably the worst operating system ever. The amount of issues we (and our clients) have with Windows 10 is overwhelming and I hate to even run it even in my virtual machine.
> Fortunately, there was a ruling in Germany that will (hopefully) force Microsoft to stop tampering with the systems we are using - until this happens, there is absolutely no way I will ever go back to Windows for music production. In hindsight, I have to thank Apple for buying Emagic back in the days


Yes we are not looking forward to moving the current (1709) Creators update version of Windows 10 whent eh time comes where I work either :/

Plenty of GPOs and changes to make ugh


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 7, 2017)

wayne_rowley said:


> What is single core performance like?



I think the question is what's causing a single core in your machine to spike, rather than what the benchmarks are (which I don't know). My guess is that it wouldn't do that if you had more cores to distribute the load.

The only spiking issue I've had is a known one related to Logic's Live mode. There's a workaround, and computer horsepower isn't really the answer.

In any case, I can't imagine anyone having buyer's remorse over a 12 x 3.xx due to any lack of power, because it has a silly amount of it. If you do regret it, it'll be because something better comes out - in which case you sell it and buy the next one.


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## lpuser (Nov 10, 2017)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> Yes we are not looking forward to moving the current (1709) Creators update version of Windows 10 whent eh time comes where I work either :/



Unfortunately MS does not ask you IF you want Creators Update or not. I have talked to many administrators and they all said that despite trying everything, still Creators Update is applied at one time.

Today, I was in the middle of working with W10, writing emails etc. while the OS suddenly shut down, applying this particular update. Of course, all my work was gone and the whole process kept me from working for roundabout 1.5 hours. This is so absolutely outraging that MS can really count them happy to not have their headquarter where I live.

Windows 10 is - by a very long stretch - the most annoying operating system available today, and I am saying this as somebody who has been using MS OS versions since MS-DOS 1.0. Thank Apple for macOS, seriously.


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## wayne_rowley (Nov 11, 2017)

Yes. Apple's updates may still break things but at least you get the choice if/when to install.

The sad thing with Apple is that the 8 year old Mac Pro seems like the best option for music/daws, at least for me:

- Macbook/Macbook Air: not powerful enough for serious use
- Mac Mini: Slow, old tech, less powerful than my current system
- iMac: I already have a screen thanks
- MacBook Pro 2015: A bit faster than my current one, but the same RAM limitations, gets noisy when pushed
- MacBook Pro 2016/17: As above, but requires dongles and has a poor/flakey keyboard design
- Mac Pro 2013: Expensive for old tech. Needs dongles and external devices. Seems to have GPU issues by design. On the plus side, quiet
- Mac Pro 2010: Expandable, but old and may not be supported for much longer. Not very efficient, relatively slow single core speed. But arguably the best option...

I can see why so many Apple users are looking to the PC.


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## mc_deli (Nov 11, 2017)

wayne_rowley said:


> Yes. Apple's updates may still break things but at least you get the choice if/when to install.
> 
> The sad thing with Apple is that the 8 year old Mac Pro seems like the best option for music/daws, at least for me:
> 
> ...


Good summary there. I agree with everything but the conclusion. The 2013 MP will last well beyond the 2010-12 MP, it is the Mac to beat, and someone just posted that they upgraded from 6 to 12 cores for under 600 bucks. If I had the 3-4k spare right now for a main machine I would push the boat out for a dustbin. For a slave though... maybe a bargain 2010-12 edges it


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## wayne_rowley (Nov 11, 2017)

Yes the Vader helmet Mac Pro would be my first choice, but the number of people reporting GPU issues or failures seems to point to an issue. My 2011 MacBook Pro has a similar problem. I’ve been lucky so far...


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## Sovereign (Nov 11, 2017)

wayne_rowley said:


> Yes the Vader helmet Mac Pro would be my first choice, but the number of people reporting GPU issues or failures seems to point to an issue. My 2011 MacBook Pro has a similar problem. I’ve been lucky so far...


I've had my 'trashcan' since 2014, upgraded some months ago to a 3,3 Ghz 8-core Xeon. Fortunately no problems yet. I've read about GPU issues but it seems mostly users with D700 suffer?


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## GdT (Nov 17, 2017)

Anyone seen the spec on Apple shop for the new iMac Pro?
It looks to be more powerful that the Mac Pro in some features. (More storage, more memory, more processors)


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## wayne_rowley (Nov 17, 2017)

Certainly more powerful... and starting at £5K!! Couldn't justify it, not as a hobbyist.

Besides, I already have a screen. I struggle with the Apple screens as they are so glossy and reflective.


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## wayne_rowley (Nov 17, 2017)

Sovereign said:


> I've had my 'trashcan' since 2014, upgraded some months ago to a 3,3 Ghz 8-core Xeon. Fortunately no problems yet. I've read about GPU issues but it seems mostly users with D700 suffer?



The reports I've seen cover all versions (D300, 500 & 700). What I don't know is how endemic this is across users. 

My Macbook Pro is the 2011 version with the dodgy graphics card.. and its still going strong with no signs of issues.


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