# When did symphonic instrument sounds become realistic?



## dsblais

Hello. When I last looked seriously at using a sequencer to aid composing it was about twenty years ago and the tinny strings, feeble brass, and cheesy piano seemed barely good enough to emulate a string machine or TR-909 from a generation before. Perhaps I simply wasn't using the right libraries and tools then, but it appears that there are now an abundance of beautifully sampled, genuinely high-definition virtual instruments covering some of the most notoriously difficult instruments like violins and even choral sections replete with various articulations and tools.

I'm thrilled that this is the case, but very curious when it became feasible to make realistic mockups and even productions with these tools -- particularly for those without a HZ budget. Thank you so much for any detail you can share.


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## fretti

Define realistic, but probably since around 2011 with the release of the Cine-series (and others). Since then many great libraries were released all pushing the boundaries making it more and more affordable and achievable to write something on a PC that comes as close to realism as with samples possible (imo).


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## ism

Wasn't VSL the first to properly sample legatos?


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## Rob

Polkasound said:


> dsblais, is your last sentence missing a few words? It looks like you're asking a question, but I can't tell what the question is.


if you substitute "because" with "becomes" the sentence makes sense


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## dsblais

Polkasound said:


> dsblais, is your last sentence missing a few words? It looks like you're asking a question, but I can't tell what the question is.


Sorry, I meant "_became_ feasible".


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## dsblais

fretti said:


> Define realistic, but probably since around 2011 with the release of the Cine-series (and others). Since then many great libraries were released all pushing the boundaries making it more and more affordable and achievable to write something on a PC that comes as close to realism as with samples possible (imo).



Thank you -- so quite recently, in fact! As for realism, let's say a simple legato passage with a solo cello or violin that is indistinguishable from a live recording to the untrained ear. Ensemble stuff appears to be a little easier to simulate.


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## dsblais

ism said:


> Wasn't VSL the first to properly sample legatos?


Their website lists 2002 as the date of their first production release, but "the MIDI utility 'Performance Tool', that – for the very first time in sampling technology – allowed users to play real legatos and convincing note repetitions in real-time" apparently came later. Do you happen to know when? Thanks.


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## Jeremy Spencer

I would say EW/Quantum Leap when they released Orchestral Gold (now called Symphonic Orchestra) ten or so years ago.


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## dsblais

Wolfie2112 said:


> I would say EW/Quantum Leap when they released Orchestral Gold (now called Symphonic Orchestra) ten or so years ago.


Thank you. Would it be fair to say that EW and VSL were the two that really popularized the high-quality, high-definition sampled virtual instruments?


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## pmcrockett

dsblais said:


> Thank you. Would it be fair to say that EW and VSL were the two that really popularized the high-quality, high-definition sampled virtual instruments?


I think that's accurate. Back around 2007 when I started getting into samples, the question wasn't _what orchestral libraries should I get, and should I go all-in-one or piece together an orchestra from multiple companies?_ but simply _do I go with EWQL or VSL?_


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## dsblais

pmcrockett said:


> I think that's accurate. Back around 2007 when I started getting into samples, the question wasn't _what orchestral libraries should I get, and should I go all-in-one or piece together an orchestra from multiple companies?_ but simply _do I go with EWQL or VSL?_



Thank you so much! That helps clear up what happened and when.


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## RiffWraith

One can easily make the argument that the correct answer to this is 1997, with Peter Siedlaczek's five CD‑ROM sample set, "The Advanced Orchestra"

One can also make the argument that the correct answer to this is 2003, with VSL's orchestral release.

Then again, it all depends on one's definition of feasible, realistic, playable, etc.

Cheers.


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## ism

dsblais said:


> Their website lists 2002 as the date of their first production release, but "the MIDI utility 'Performance Tool', that – for the very first time in sampling technology – allowed users to play real legatos and convincing note repetitions in real-time" apparently came later. Do you happen to know when? Thanks.



Not sure, but as early maybe 2006? Kontakt 2 started to include cut down versions of the older versions of VSL instruments (still in the Kontakt factory library). And even these limited versions were capable of some very convincing mock ups, at least within a certain range. 

But as to when it all changed - I think there's a lot of milestones you could draw. If early VSL was an epochal shift that changed the way I thought about what was possible in writing with samples, I think it was maybe Spitfire woodwinds was another such moment that forever changed my understanding of what it was possible to do with samples. 

And the Joshua Bell violin represented for me the moment that writing for solo strings with samples became musically interesting - a complete revelation. I don't think we've quite entered the golden age of solo sting libraries yet, but indications are that we're close. 

Another golden age we've entered, probably only in the last couple of years comes from the sheer breadth (and artistic vision) of sampling has changed what it means to write for sample libraries - emblematically Albion V and perhaps four or five libraries since have, yet again, radically changed the way I think about writing with samples - in that no amount of HWS or VSL or SSO - no matter how brilliantly these cover your basic orchestra - would let you access certain realms of orchestral texture until someone actually went off into this remote corners of the orchestral pallet and sampled it (VSL, LCO, OACE).

But with that caveat if I had to pick a single moment that inaugurated the modern era of orchestral sampling, it would be the moment VSL got that legato to work on their cellos. 

There may actually have been tears in my eyes the first time the VSL Vc legato, having bought Kontakt 2 only vaguely aware that there was it included some orchestral patches, and certainly not expecting them to sound remotely like actual real instruments. I'd ben playing with samples for years, but this was something wholly new.

So in this sense, I think that "before VSL figure out how to do legato" and "after VSL figured out how to do legato" do genuinely qualify as entirely different epochs of human history. 


Of course, there are surely very many ways to narrate the history of sample library innovation in terms of epochal shifts - curious as to how others perceive it.

(And I can't wait for the "after [someone, not sure who] figured out how to really do solo strings" epoch to arrive - not sure it's going to be another 5 years, or later this week, but its in sight )


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## dsblais

ism said:


> Not sure, but as early maybe 2006? Kontakt 2 started to include cut down versions of the older versions of VSL instruments (still in the Kontakt factory library). And even these limited versions were capable of some very convincing mock ups, at least within a certain range.
> 
> But as to when it all changed - I think there's a lot of milestones you could draw. If early VSL was an epochal shift that changed the way I thought about what was possible in writing with samples, I think it was maybe Spitfire woodwinds was another such moment that forever changed my understanding of what it was possible to do with samples.
> 
> And the Joshua Bell violin represented for me the moment that writing for solo strings with samples became musically interesting - a complete revelation. I don't think we've quite entered the golden age of solo sting libraries yet, but indications are that we're close.
> 
> Another golden age we've entered, probably only in the last couple of years comes from the sheer breadth (and artistic vision) of sampling has changed what it means to write for sample libraries - emblematically Albion V and perhaps four or five libraries since have, yet again, radically changed the way I think about writing with samples - in that no amount of HWS or VSL or SSO - no matter how brilliantly these cover your basic orchestra - would let you access certain realms of orchestral texture until someone actually went off into this remote corners of the orchestral pallet and sampled it (VSL, LCO, OACE).
> 
> But with that caveat if I had to pick a single moment that inaugurated the modern era of orchestral sampling, it would be the moment VSL got that legato to work on their cellos.
> 
> There may actually have been tears in my eyes the first time the VSL Vc legato, having bought Kontakt 2 only vaguely aware that there was it included some orchestral patches, and certainly not expecting them to sound remotely like actual real instruments. I'd ben playing with samples for years, but this was something wholly new.
> 
> So in this sense, I think that "before VSL figure out how to do legato" and "after VSL figured out how to do legato" do genuinely qualify as entirely different epochs of human history.
> 
> 
> Of course, there are surely very many ways to narrate the history of sample library innovation in terms of epochal shifts - curious as to how others perceive it.
> 
> (And I can't wait for the "after [someone, not sure who] figured out how to really do solo strings" epoch to arrive - not sure it's going to be another 5 years, or later this week, but its in sight )



Thank you for your fantastically detailed and helpful post. I’m frankly astonished at the progress that has been made while I’ve been at work in other domains. It’s like a kid going from PacMan to whatever the latest 3D, VR game. It’s sudden future shock — in a wonderful way.

There’s a way all the amateur tools have limited what skilled composers and musicians have been able to do for so long and now, like with a DSLR for under a grand, they can finally express their vision without [nearly as much] technical constraint. It won’t make anyone a Mozart, but it certainly gives the unknown Mozarts out there a chance to... be a Sound Cloud artist with 50 plays.  And a few of those might even make it big.

Thanks again!


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## Dear Villain

dsblais said:


> It won’t make anyone a Mozart, but it certainly gives the unknown Mozarts out there a chance to... be a Sound Cloud artist with 50 plays.  And a few of those might even make it big.



This is hitting too close to home. Now, go visit my Soundcloud, please


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## WhiteNoiz

Maybe this helps:
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/how-did-orchestral-sampling-start-out.54771/

(Let's say pre-2003 you still had a mix of MIDI, sample CDs [Siedlaczek, BigFish, Spectrasonics, EastWest, Sonic Implants], hardware and computer software [Garritan, early cubase, logic, gigastudio... > 2003-2005+ VSL, EastWest Symphonic [multi mics], Garritan, Kirk Hunter, NI Kontakt, as examples - EW and VSL made their own samplers, probable around 2006+] Haven't really totally figured that out myself, haha; I generally look at it more from the gaming side if anything) You can add to it the release of EastWest Hollywood Strings around 2010 (you can probably put a landmark here), their Brass in 2011 (and so on). Spitfire as far as I recall was privately sampling since 2007 and then came out with Albion around 2011 and has been openly commercial ever since (I think). 8Dio, Cinesamples, NI... Then there is Orchestral Tools. You can say SF and OT picked up where EW left off. Now VSL getting in that approach with Synchron and breaking their tradition (of dry libs). Don't remember who else it could be, but it has been a rather steady evolution. All these built on the previous ones with more articulations/techniques, more sophisticated programming and more depth (more mics, wider breadth of articulations, amount of dynamics, etc.). And in all that you have all the "indie" devs (Cinematic Studio, Chris Hein, Tarilonte, Musical Sampling, Impact Soundworks, Embertone, Performance Samples and a slew of others [too many to name and/or remember], filling in with some different approaches or more specialised tools.

Generally, I'd say (somewhat arbitrarily) it's pre-2002, 2003-2006 and 2010+ (building on and expanding previous stuff, along with many new devs/companies/approaches coming in). This is more like history, but it can help you trace when you personally think the "indistinguishable realism" started (which is kinda subjective). But, yeah, now, more than ever, it's probably the most about if you can actually compose and mix/produce and use the tools, than the tools holding you back (which was always true, just maybe the variety and fidelity wasn't there to fully realise a lot of things; which still has its own magic). Which I think is why I feel at some point and for some time we've been having the usability/workability and ease of use and specific uses coming in/up more and more than the actual super size or super depth of libraries (I don't think it's either or, but I've noticed it).

But overall, I guess it's pretty great and there are a lot of choices nowadays. And you still have the choice to use older approaches if you so desire, mix and match and so on.

Has anyone actually written all of this down in greater detail in a book or something? Will have to look. It's certainly an interesting topic.

http://web.archive.org/web/20050516203108/http://vi-control.net:80/MacSamplingArticle.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20050517051755/https://www.vi-control.net/MacSamplingII.html 


Ok, I'll stop now. I guess I got a bit too excited.


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## Loïc D

WhiteNoiz said:


> Generally, I'd say (somewhat arbitrarily) it's pre-2002, 2003-2006 and 2010+


You nailed it ! 
I remember a big smile on my face when I first uploaded PZ Advanced Orchestra CD in my hardware sampler in early 2000s. A collection of 5 CDs in very limited RAM : you had to make drastic choices. Legato was a just a dream back then.

I switched to software with Kontakt 2, and kinda struggled with it (I think the hard drive streaming function was added later). My hardware sampler became deprecated at once (I still have a Yamaha A5000, if someone's interested, cobwebs included).

Then I bought QL orchestra Silver, then Gold (then the choir library which featured one of the first word builder app).
I liked the great range of sounds, and cursed at all the inconsistencies that made this library quite hard to use. The first versions of Play engine were laggy & buggy.
But it was a giant leap forward from sample CDs.
VSL was THE reference back then but it was too expensive for me.

Then I stopped writing music for a long time (I was playing in bands) and jumped back onboard with Kontakt 4 stock library then Albion I just to realize how much progress was made lately.
I'm glad I live in a golden age with quality solutions from both big & indie companies together with great spirit of competition & collaboration (this forum is here to testify).

That said, it's not only libraries : the plugins went the same way.


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## dsblais

WhiteNoiz said:


> Maybe this helps:
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/how-did-orchestral-sampling-start-out.54771/
> 
> (Let's say pre-2003 you still had a mix of MIDI, sample CDs [Siedlaczek, BigFish, Spectrasonics, EastWest, Sonic Implants], hardware and computer software [Garritan, early cubase, logic, gigastudio... > 2003-2005+ VSL, EastWest Symphonic [multi mics], Garritan, Kirk Hunter, NI Kontakt, as examples - EW and VSL made their own samplers, probable around 2006+] Haven't really totally figured that out myself, haha; I generally look at it more from the gaming side if anything) You can add to it the release of EastWest Hollywood Strings around 2010 (you can probably put a landmark here), their Brass in 2011 (and so on). Spitfire as far as I recall was privately sampling since 2007 and then came out with Albion around 2011 and has been openly commercial ever since (I think). 8Dio, Cinesamples, NI... Then there is Orchestral Tools. You can say SF and OT picked up where EW left off. Now VSL getting in that approach with Synchron and breaking their tradition (of dry libs). Don't remember who else it could be, but it has been a rather steady evolution. All these built on the previous ones with more articulations/techniques, more sophisticated programming and more depth (more mics, wider breadth of articulations, amount of dynamics, etc.). And in all that you have all the "indie" devs (Cinematic Studio, Chris Hein, Tarilonte, Musical Sampling, Impact Soundworks, Embertone, Performance Samples and a slew of others [too many to name and/or remember], filling in with some different approaches or more specialised tools.
> 
> Generally, I'd say (somewhat arbitrarily) it's pre-2002, 2003-2006 and 2010+ (building on and expanding previous stuff, along with many new devs/companies/approaches coming in). This is more like history, but it can help you trace when you personally think the "indistinguishable realism" started (which is kinda subjective). But, yeah, now, more than ever, it's probably the most about if you can actually compose and mix/produce and use the tools, than the tools holding you back (which was always true, just maybe the variety and fidelity wasn't there to fully realise a lot of things; which still has its own magic). Which I think is why I feel at some point and for some time we've been having the usability/workability and ease of use and specific uses coming in/up more and more than the actual super size or super depth of libraries (I don't think it's either or, but I've noticed it).
> 
> But overall, I guess it's pretty great and there are a lot of choices nowadays. And you still have the choice to use older approaches if you so desire, mix and match and so on.
> 
> Has anyone actually written all of this down in greater detail in a book or something? Will have to look. It's certainly an interesting topic.
> 
> http://web.archive.org/web/20050516203108/http://vi-control.net:80/MacSamplingArticle.html
> http://web.archive.org/web/20050517051755/https://www.vi-control.net/MacSamplingII.html
> 
> 
> Ok, I'll stop now. I guess I got a bit too excited.



Thank you, WhiteNoiz. That's super helpful and the archive.org links were fun to get the zeitgeist of the time!


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## DaddyO

Edirol Orchestral? Where does that fit in? I had it but at the time I had no idea what to do with it.


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## uditprakash

I think VSL is the first seamless orchestral library. I still know many composers who use VSL in their productions.


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## Ned Bouhalassa

2031, with Symphobia VIII.


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## StephenForsyth

Nobody's posted mojo madness yet? i'm impressed.


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## Jdiggity1

StephenForsyth said:


> Nobody's posted mojo madness yet? i'm impressed.


It's just not VI-Control without mojo madness


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## Robo Rivard

I would say May 1987.
Helloween's "Keeper of the seven keys part 1 and 2".
After that, everything is a fraud.


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## Dietz

This is a little proof-of-concept put together by VSL's founder Herb Tucmandl in 2001, mixed by Yours Truly in the same year. 

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/viennasymphoniclibray-jstraussbluedanubewaltz-openingtheme_-p-2001-mp3.13864/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## dsblais

Robo Rivard said:


> I would say May 1987.
> Helloween's "Keeper of the seven keys part 1 and 2".
> After that, everything is a fraud.



 Loved those songs.


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## dsblais

Dietz said:


> This is a little proof-of-concept put together by VSL's founder Herb Tucmandl in 2001, mixed by Yours Truly in the same year.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/viennasymphoniclibray-jstraussbluedanubewaltz-openingtheme_-p-2001-mp3.13864/][/AUDIOPLUS]



That's really amazing!


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## Dietz

dsblais said:


> That's really amazing!


Thanks! Actually I was surprised myself how gracefully this little snippet aged.


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## PaulBrimstone

When? I guess it was the Stringularity.


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## dabeat11

I'm totally researching/writing about this for my PhD dissertation. Advanced Orchestra was definitely a precursor, but as far as I can tell from running through trade magazines from the late 90s to early 00s, VSL and EWQLSO were totally game-changing. They established a set of norms for recording/sampling, visual representation in the DAW, and marketing that is still for the most part in place. Native Instruments was in the mix too (EWQLSO initially released for the now-defunct Kompakt sampler), but I think the main priority for NI has always been synthesis. That may seem counter-intuitive given the success of Kontakt, but Kontakt made its name by hosting third-party libraries, and even today NI's proprietary sample content for Kontakt is a bit anemic compared to many of the third-party libraries it hosts.

This question is obviously super subjective though. I think everybody agrees that the quality of production you can get "in the box" has definitely improved, but there are a lot of factors that go into that on the production side (how well people can use their tools) and on the perception side (how accustomed listeners' ears are to the subtleties of orchestral sounds).


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## Erick - BVA

DaddyO said:


> Edirol Orchestral? Where does that fit in? I had it but at the time I had no idea what to do with it.


That's a very interesting question. While a lot of the patches aren't that realistic, they still sound really good. Back when I first started writing music on the PC, I used some of the string patches on a piece. No other virtual instrument could quite get the same, silky sound. It was synthetic sounding, but in a very warm, pleasing sort of way --like it was a real strings section with it's edges and imperfections smoothed out or something. Really nice tone. Just not realistic.


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## Pianolando

My 2c:
Pianos when Synthogy released Ivory 1
Orchestral sections and solo winds/brass when EW released Hollywood orchestra.
Solo strings just recently.


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## dsblais

dabeat11 said:


> I'm totally researching/writing about this for my PhD dissertation. Advanced Orchestra was definitely a precursor, but as far as I can tell from running through trade magazines from the late 90s to early 00s, VSL and EWQLSO were totally game-changing. They established a set of norms for recording/sampling, visual representation in the DAW, and marketing that is still for the most part in place. Native Instruments was in the mix too (EWQLSO initially released for the now-defunct Kompakt sampler), but I think the main priority for NI has always been synthesis. That may seem counter-intuitive given the success of Kontakt, but Kontakt made its name by hosting third-party libraries, and even today NI's proprietary sample content for Kontakt is a bit anemic compared to many of the third-party libraries it hosts.
> 
> This question is obviously super subjective though. I think everybody agrees that the quality of production you can get "in the box" has definitely improved, but there are a lot of factors that go into that on the production side (how well people can use their tools) and on the perception side (how accustomed listeners' ears are to the subtleties of orchestral sounds).



That's very helpful! Thank you and good luck on your dissertation (perhaps you could share it here when you're done; it sounds fascinating)! Your final comments seem very relevant to me, especially in this time of retrowave analog synths, etc. I simply mean a realistic reproduction that can, at least now and then, cross the uncanny valley.


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## ptram

While VSL did change things by letting us make a real jump in quality and realism, I wouldn't dismiss the importance of Peter Siedlaczek's Advanced Orchestra (and a bit later, of Miroslav Vitous' answer – already, at that time, an opposition between dry samples and samples with recorded ambience…). This library was really a great advancement in realism. You can still hear how good it was in the demos (and I will be so kind to spare you my pieces composed at the time with the library).

Also, I wouldn't dismiss Garritan's effort to create a good quality orchestra at a reasonable price. While it was not at the same level as VSL, this library was good enough to let many of us compose while listening to the sound of a real orchestra.

Paolo


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## robgb

Go back and listen to Jeremy Soule's mockups in the very early 2000's. Amazing realism was possible back then. And he was using Garritan Orchestral Strings on Gigasampler. It all comes down to talent, I'm afraid.


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## Kardon

I think it was Winter NAMM in 1999 when I first heard Miroslav Vitous strings, on I believe the original Gigasampler, and I was blown away. The demo was a slow emotive piece and sounded like nothing I had ever heard before. My Kurzweil strings were never used again .


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