# Pitchshifting with formant adjustment



## lee (Jun 7, 2008)

What are peoples experience with the different pitchshift algorithms out there?

I´m trying to compare these three: (seem to fit my budget)

-Waves Ultrapitch

-Cubase Studio 4 pitchshifting, mpx3 (upgrade from SL3)

-Reapers Reapitch, Elastiqe Pro V2


Will use it mostly on voices.

/Johnny


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## Daryl (Jun 7, 2008)

lee @ Sat Jun 07 said:


> What are peoples experience with the different pitchshift algorithms out there?
> 
> I´m trying to compare these three: (seem to fit my budget)
> 
> ...


Just get Melodyne.

D


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## lee (Jun 7, 2008)

Daryl @ Sat Jun 07 said:


> Just get Melodyne.
> 
> D



Aint there any cheaper (yet HQ) option than Melodyne? And it seems more advanced than I really need.

/Johnny


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## Daryl (Jun 7, 2008)

lee @ Sat Jun 07 said:


> Daryl @ Sat Jun 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Just get Melodyne.
> ...


Do you want cheap or good?

D


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## Thonex (Jun 7, 2008)

Daryl @ Sat Jun 07 said:


> lee @ Sat Jun 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Sat Jun 07 said:
> ...



Get Melodyne.

There are various packages ranging $199 (I believe) to the full blown unlimited tracks fr $650-ish

http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?i ... L%2525253D

Download a fully functioning demo (but it won't save).

T


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## lee (Jun 7, 2008)

Hehe, yeah I know. Quality costs. It´s just that I`m not after the pitch correction of separate notes, I want to use pitch shift as a tool of sound design. Change character of voices in my audio drama, and create sfx. Melodyne seems to have a much widers spectrum of usage, which may not be a bad thing, but maybe not something I wanna pay for, since I cant see myself in need of it,

I wonder how the pitch shift (dirac) is quality wise in Sound forge 9. I´m using freeware audio editors right now, so if I could save up to buy an audio editor, maybe the pitch shift in SF9 would be sufficient?

Edit: It seems Reapers reapitch can use Elastique2, Elastique 1, Dirac and Soundtouch-algorithms. And it´s alot cheaper than Soundforge.

/Johnny


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## KingIdiot (Jun 7, 2008)

for what you're trying to do

Melodyne is a great piece of software.

but...

Better yet would be to look into TC Helicon boxes

I use my voice prism for exactly what you're looking for and get great results, and this sucker is old. I want a new one, someone want ot donate to my gear fund? I promise to use it to make some cool sample manipulation and share


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## lee (Jun 8, 2008)

I guess hardware maybestill got some advantage over software when it comes to pitchshifting (at least realtime). Like eventide monsters.

But using software is so practical. (Read "I`m a lazy software guy") It´s gone so far, I´m selling my Akai S3000XL. 

/Johnny


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## Dietz (Jun 9, 2008)

lee @ Sat Jun 07 said:


> [...] It´s just that I`m not after the pitch correction of separate notes, I want to use pitch shift as a tool of sound design. Change character of voices in my audio drama, and create sfx. Melodyne seems to have a much widers spectrum of usage, which may not be a bad thing, but maybe not something I wanna pay for, since I cant see myself in need of it [...]



For parameters like pitch, formants and tempo, there are general offsets available in Melodyne, too, so you wouldn't have to work on a note-by-note-basis.




lee @ Sat Jun 07 said:


> [...] I wonder how the pitch shift (dirac) is quality wise in Sound forge 9. I´m using freeware audio editors right now, so if I could save up to buy an audio editor, maybe the pitch shift in SF9 would be sufficient?
> 
> Edit: It seems Reapers reapitch can use Elastique2, Elastique 1, Dirac and Soundtouch-algorithms. And it´s alot cheaper than Soundforge.
> 
> /Johnny



The most professional solution for that would be Prosoniq's "Time Factory":

-> http://www.prosoniq.com/main/timefactory-2-mac/

The Windows-version is lacking a bit behind, though:

-> http://www.prosoniq.com/main/timefactory-2-windows/

HTH,


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## lee (Jun 10, 2008)

Always nice to see Dietz here! 

There´s something I dont quite understand about all these solutions.

Prosoniqs Time Factory (399 Euro!!) uses mpex3 and dirac (maybe other algos too). But Cubase 4 uses mpex 3 too. And dirac seems to be the same in Wavelab6 and Soundforge 9.

Have the quys at prosoniq implemented the algos in some clever way that isnt possible in the other apps?

Praiseworthy alternatives for me seem to be:

Upgrading to Cubase Studio 4: 98 Euro
Melodyne Uno: 169 Euro
Melodyne Plugin: 299 Euro

What do you think, Dietz? (And others)

Btw, I tried the Elastique Pro V2 algos in ReaPitch and I wasnt too impressed.

/Johnny


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## KingIdiot (Jun 10, 2008)

Heres the thing. You are looking or voice manipulation to create new and interesting effects for audio dramas and the like.

To be honest, you should be looking at getting your hands on multiple pitch shifting options. They all do things slightly differentyl and allow for different effects. You should probably ook into other options of "weird" effects like that old plug in "warp" for "Alien" type effects.

You should also look at recording techniques, and voice manipulation on the acting side of things. Sometimes the plugin/effect isnt enough and you have to consider what it is doin to the voice, and then act/manipulate your voice in the real world to compensate. For instance, a VERY simplistic, example: Speak slower, so that when you pitch shift a voice upwards without time compensation it has the correct timing/inflection.

As for editors. If you do not have a good editor, you need one regardess of pitch shifting algorithm. Personally I prefer Wavelab, as it has options I like, and I'm used to it now. The "montage" structure may prove usefull to you as well.

As far as sut concerning pitch shifting., and if you are REALLY REALLY stuck on plug ins (wchih you need to look beyond IMO), Go with Melodyne. It will allow fr easy tweaking and "nifty" solutions. You can create formant and pitch shifts that curve into other formants and shifts creating wholly unique sounds.

The downside being, that you are completely limited t Melodynes algorithms and way of doing things. Which ultimately become limiting after you use it for a while for "creating new stuff", its the same way with ANY software. No matter how big the feature set, if you use it all the time for making "new" things, you'll find that you want more.


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## lee (Jun 10, 2008)

> You should also look at recording techniques, and voice manipulation on the acting side of things. Sometimes the plugin/effect isnt enough and you have to consider what it is doin to the voice, and then act/manipulate your voice in the real world to compensate. For instance, a VERY simplistic, example: Speak slower, so that when you pitch shift a voice upwards without time compensation it has the correct timing/inflection.



Very true. Good advice.



> As for editors. If you do not have a good editor, you need one regardess of pitch shifting algorithm. Personally I prefer Wavelab, as it has options I like, and I'm used to it now. The "montage" structure may prove usefull to you as well.



I know there are probably many soundforge vs wavelab ws etc -discussions on the web, but would you like to share what options you like most about Wavelab compared to others?

(I can crossgrade my Cubase SL3 to Wavelab 6. It will still be a little bit more expensive than Soundforge 9 though.)

Have you used the pitchshifting algos in WL successfully? Feel free to share you experiences.



> As far as sut concerning pitch shifting., and if you are REALLY REALLY stuck on plug ins (wchih you need to look beyond IMO), Go with Melodyne. It will allow fr easy tweaking and "nifty" solutions. You can create formant and pitch shifts that curve into other formants and shifts creating wholly unique sounds.
> 
> The downside being, that you are completely limited t Melodynes algorithms and way of doing things. Which ultimately become limiting after you use it for a while for "creating new stuff", its the same way with ANY software. No matter how big the feature set, if you use it all the time for making "new" things, you'll find that you want more.



Yes I know. But I AM using different ways already: Kontakt 2, freeware audio editors, Cubase SL3, freeware plugins.. 

Sorry for not quoting the "correct" way, I got sick of trying to get it right. :D 

/Johnny


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## JohnnyMarks (Jun 10, 2008)

KingIdiot @ Sat Jun 07 said:


> for what you're trying to do
> 
> Melodyne is a great piece of software.
> 
> ...


Hey King Idiot:

I'd be interested in any further thoughts you have on the TC hardware (for transposing instrument samples). Is that their "Hybrid" algorithm you're referring to? I was about to do a bunch of working using DIRAC but now you've got me thinking...

Bob Katz seems to favor TC hardware pitch shifting also, saying it beats anything in software. As I recall though he was referring to the pitch shifting in the System 6000...don't know if that's the same technology as in the Helcon boxes.


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## Dietz (Jun 12, 2008)

lee @ Tue Jun 10 said:


> Always nice to see Dietz here!
> 
> There´s something I dont quite understand about all these solutions.
> 
> ...



As a self-confessing fan of Nuendo, I have to admit that I always found the sound of its MPEX-processings less convincing than the ones I did with TimeFactory. But I have no profound information about its actual implementation, sorry.

Other than that - the decision you have to make is much between versatility vs. quality, it seems 

Best,


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## lee (Jun 12, 2008)

Dietz @ Thu Jun 12 said:


> As a self-confessing fan of Nuendo, I have to admit that I always found the sound of its MPEX-processings less convincing than the ones I did with TimeFactory. But I have no profound information about its actual implementation, sorry.
> 
> Other than that - the decision you have to make is much between versatility vs. quality, it seems
> 
> Best,



Yes, versatility vs. quality.. Spot on. What would you choose, Dietz? (Isnt it always nice trying to make others make hard decisions for you?)

Thanx for the quick replies and pm!

Ps. Looks like Adobe Audition 3 uses Radius time stretching from iZotope. http://www.kvraudio.com/news/7759.html

/Johnny


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## Frederick Russ (Jun 12, 2008)

For the value and pristine sound quality, seriously consider going Melodyne. If money is an issue, get the plug-in version.


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## lee (Jun 12, 2008)

I´ve been thinking exactly that, Mr Russ! Can you confirm what Dietz has written to me about the plugin version. (Havent been able to find the info on their homepage):

"I'm possibly wrong, but AFAIK there are only offsets for formants and pitch, not for tempo."

/Johnny


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## Dietz (Jun 14, 2008)

@ Johnny:

Like I wrote in my PM to you, the plug-in version _can't_ have dedicated, over-all tempo-offset, as the tempo is of course controlled by the host application.

... which doesn't mean that you can't change the timing and/or position of _individual_ notes within the plug-in.

*****

"Cheap - fast - good: choose any two!"


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## lee (Jun 14, 2008)

Actually I think you´re both right and wrong! 

You dont have a dedicated tempo-offset in the plugin, but if you change the tempo in the host, the content processed by the plug will be stretched.

Quoting from the celemony forum:



> ashira wrote:
> So simple standard timestretch of the entire part/sample isnt possible with the plugin?
> 
> Sure it is. Transfer your audio to Melodyne plugin first. Then increase or decrease your host's tempo, Melodyne will follow.
> ...



It sure would be nice to have a dedicated melodyne algo for stretching/shifting full mixed material, but if I upgrade to Cubase Studio 4 and buy the melodyne plugin, I´ll have mpx3 for such tasks (probably not as good but anyway) and it´ll be alot cheaper the the melodyne studio.

Thanx for you taking time and sharing your knowledge, Dietz!

/Johnny


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## Dietz (Jun 16, 2008)

lee @ Sat Jun 14 said:


> [...]
> 
> 
> > ashira wrote:
> ...


... that's exactly what I'm trying to tell


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## lee (Jun 18, 2008)

Now I tried a different method. When I "lowered" the formants a bit together with the downpitching I got better results for simple global pitchshifting.

If Dietz or anyone with insight reads this, would you please give some advice regarding formants/pitch?

/Johnny, talking to himself


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## KingIdiot (Jun 18, 2008)

well

With voices in general, if you shift slightly, you wat to keep the formants the same (usually). This is why Melodyne defaults to having the Formant remain static when you pitch shift. What I mean by this is, being that formants are independent of pitchin Melodyne, when you shift a note, the formant "adjustment bar" stays "center" to the note, which mens it hasnt shifted.

Melodynes algorithms are optimized for natural results, but when you start shifting an octave lower without shifting the formant... well its gonna sound weird, because its trying very hard to keep the formant static. Here you need to start introducing some formant shift with the pitch shift. You dont have to go down to an octave formant shift, but it tends to still work.

Remember this is STILL JUST pitch shifting, albeit with some features like formant adjustment. It IS NOT vocal modeling/remodeling. That takes a bit more to do, and requires more focused algorithms/effects. Which I just havent seen done well in anything but hardware.

ALSO, and this is key, make sure you are in melodic mode, and make sure the pitch detection at the MDD level is correct. With spoken word, Melodyne may get a bit funky if there are dramatic inflections on some words. These can make melodyne think that its at static pitch, when in actuality there are very quick shifts of up to an octave. If you dont make sure these are correct at the MDD level, then there tend to be artifacts

You'll have to work within the limitations of the software. That said, I find Melodyne to have some of the most flexibility out there. Being able to manipulate formants independantly, AND use transition curves to "blend" into different formant shifts makes for some really nice results.

For most adjustments (especially musical ones) this generally works fine, but when you start cutting up specific words and doing major tonal and character adjustments it requires more fiddling, but can do things other pitchers cant.

Oh and by the way, I find a combinations of Hardware AND software to be the best. Running Melodynes output to hardware and making adjustments at both levels, while it sounds insane, is the best + most flexibility 've had.

*It takes time* to learn, and alot of us dont have the time to get into it.

there are simpler pitchers out there, and some geared towards what you're looking for I'm sure. (turn your voice into someone else...etc). Melodyne allows for lot of flexibility, but, in turn, also alot of complexity.


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## lee (Jun 19, 2008)

KingIdiot @ Wed Jun 18 said:


> well
> 
> With voices in general, if you shift slightly, you wat to keep the formants the same (usually). This is why Melodyne defaults to having the Formant remain static when you pitch shift. What I mean by this is, being that formants are independent of pitchin Melodyne, when you shift a note, the formant "adjustment bar" stays "center" to the note, which mens it hasnt shifted.
> 
> ...



Thank you. Yes, melodyne seems like a complex monster. And that is what I kind of was sceptical to in the beginning, but I guess it may be able to get better results than many other tools if one is ready to fiddle and let it take time.

However! Are there any other pitchers that are geared toward what I´m looking for that you know of? I think Antares has some modeling tool, and also the tc helicon that I thought was only for Powercore has a native version.

Hm.. hm...


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## KingIdiot (Jun 19, 2008)

As far as I know the Voice Modeler from TCHelicon is Still Powercore only. unless it was just recently announced.

It is however a powerful tool from what I've heard and seen. I love the Helicon stuf in my Voice Prism, and thats what I'd use for drastic vocal character changes.

I don't know the VoiceModeler from real world experience tho, so I cant tell you how well it works in application.

I remember Anteres had a voice modeler bundle a few years ago, and I hated it, but now t seems they've updated it again, it might be better

http://antarestech.com

They've also semed to have made a realtime "Easy to use" version, its not a plug in tho.

http://antaresvox.com/news.html


thats all Ive got  Good luck


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## Bruce Richardson (Jun 19, 2008)

This all seems a bit overthought. Probably easy for me to say, because I have lots of hardware and software pitch-shifting options here.

But, ultimately, nothing is magic. I use, in no particular order, the Waves options in Mercury, a lovely old Korg DVP-1 I found in a pawn shop, a Digitecth Studio 400, and various other solutions. I have two bankers boxes full of stompboxes, and I love hooking those things up and messing with them. Hell, I'd even forgotten I had a mint Phase 90...people are paying bucks for those things now, haha.

If you're working with a freeware basic audio program, you might do well to upgrade that as the primary expenditure. Watch Craig's List for hardware sell-offs. It's amazing what you find there (tonight, I found a Midi Solutions M8 for about 1/3 price, that I needed for a gig).

I really like Vegas for these kinds of tasks, even though it's not a dedicated tool. If I want to fuck things up, I just stretch them all over as many timeline tracks as I need, and plugin effects as needed.

I saw at least two Digitech "Vocalist" effects of various vintages on Craigslist just tonight (Dallas). Lots of options if you just start scouring for them.


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