# Very fast tempo mockups!!!



## Leandro Gardini (Sep 29, 2004)

I recently was asked to compose for an adventure scene...getting some ideas from film and classical scores I wrote some ideas on the paper and than begun to sequence them...for an adventure scene I first thought something very fast , like sixteenth-notes playing at 145-155 bpm for the arrangement , but when I begun to sequence the score I noticed that my QLSO was sounding fake on these very fast passages...I tried many times to re-program (mainly the attacks of) the samples and I could get a much better result , and after some days I could get close to what I wanted , but it wasn?t something that really pleased me , so , after this happening I realized that my sample library could not do what I had just composed...my question is...
...have someone had the same experience???Have you composed something in very fast tempos???If so please show me???


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 29, 2004)

Doing Americas most Wanted, i am constantly in fast tempos. QLSO is great with accents but fast lines are problematic. Notice all the spiccato patches listed for the update. SI and VSL handle the fast stuff very well. If you can go on ichat i can upload to you a series of uptempo pieces.

This one is still on the slow side but is the only one up on my site presently...I think it's about 150 bpm....i have action cues up to 180. I also have cues where there are 16th note runs at these tempos and I believe they are effective.

http://www.scoredog.tv/Race%20to%20the%20End%201.mp3


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 29, 2004)

Well Craig - you already know what I'm going to say since I heard this previously - excellent job, great piece, exciting composition!

Leo, here is a demo mockup piece I did using VSL in a Paganinni style mockup - fast 16th notes:

http://www.sanctusangelis.com/mymusic/16thNotes.mp3


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## Leandro Gardini (Sep 30, 2004)

Craig,

the woodwind run on 11 sec. and the harp gliss. were some features I tryed to mockup , I found them very realistic on your music...witch one are they???VSL I guess...

Frederick,

I have to say the same thing to you...could you show me some woodwind runs playing two octaves???

Maybe it?s time to think about VSL products :roll: ?!?!


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## lux (Sep 30, 2004)

hey Leo,

dont' know if it can be useful, but i've noticed that many problems coming from EWQL sasmples are due to that too bright and harsh character expecially on strings and woods. Sometimes I find very useful to radically reduce those frequencies to achieve a more realistic sound.

I'm sure you already done it, but if not, try to place a reduction with a large q on about 8k on violins. starting from 2-3 k less, relisten to see if you have some improvements on the mix and eventually increase the reduction.

Sometimes it works. I have to say, although, that I own only silver edition, but think that samplepools are the same.

Luca


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## Leandro Gardini (Sep 30, 2004)

Luca,

I?ve never tried it...actually what I always work is on the envelopes...I never mix , EQ or whatever these things , but I will try your suggestion...
...I don?t like the way Nick program the legatos , he always tend to program the samples with a too fast attack...if you listen to a real players you can see that they never play legatos with those fast attacks like QLSO...than when we try to change the envelopes , the original samples are already so modified that there isn?t much you can do...
...it?s why I think even the Qlegato won?t work for fast tempos!!!

Craig,

could you upload you musics to my yahoo briefcase???


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 30, 2004)

Well the problem with programming fast glisses is they can't work well, as the attacks on the samples are too uniformed.

I used some custom samples for the flute runs but have no fear, there are answers available. VSL flute runs are good and they are fast ,200 bpm, but that's not real fast. I actually think for the glisses you are looking for they need to be faster, and you want flute and piccalo runs, to thicken the run. There is one available in Orchestral Colors which is over used on TV production. It is good but identifiable and the rest of the library is alot of pre done phrases, something I don't hear in your mockups. The other current solution I;m aware of is AO, which has a lot of cool phrases for this stuff but a lot of useless instruments. You can buy sections though. I use their winds a lot for animation as i like the preset phrases for that stuff. Maybe Donnie has fast glisses in his libs.

QLSO on the update has adressed the run issue. Hopefully the tempos are fast enough. Just so you know...an octave run can be retriggered an octave up to make a 2 octave run.

One other simple solution is hire a flute/piccalo player for an hour or 2 and you should be able to get what you need. Remember to record both instruments.

Harps...QLSO has a few runs in their coming update, but I doubt it can touch the pure detail which translates into usefulness of the VSL harp. Harp flourishes are in every key in 3 tempos besides all of techniques available. The VSL harp is an outstanding harp library bordering on mind boggling.

Hope this helps


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 30, 2004)

Leo - do you have QLSO Platinum? You might try doing the fast runs using close mics only and adding a little ambience to taste. When those fast scale runs with the hall mics on begin to cascade one on top of the other things start sounding a little synthy. I think QLSO is a great library but technically work arounds need to be addressed - especially when increasing the tempo substantially. 

VSL works great alongside QLSO. I few composers I really respect use this combo very effectively, adding a little Altiverb or Waves IR to the VSL stuff to kind of match the ambience. Regarding VSL/QLSO - what one doesn't have the other seems to. The VSL woodwinds in particular are really excellent in my opinion, especially using the legato feature on flute and the harp is fat and very warm sounding.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 30, 2004)

Cool job to both of you!

Frederick, the spot that is usually the most noticable and reveals the sampled string runs is when the string line goes quickly to high register. 
It might be that the suggestion of an EQ dip in the hi mids/highs works in that case?
or maybe the doubling with a solo violin such as the Kirk Hunter one?


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 30, 2004)

Exactly Patrick - the high violin stuff is the most difficult to keep from screaming "I'm a sample! Here me roar!" I don't have the KH Solo Violin - the gypsy one is intriguing (I believe it may have been what Craig used in that excellent "Le Jazz" cue). 

Thanks for the hints on resolving EQ - as always, great ears Patrick!


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## Patrick de Caumette (Oct 1, 2004)

Thanks Frederick,
the KHSS solo gypsy violin is amazing, so full of life!
I love it


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 1, 2004)

Ok - you sold me - sample lust wins again lol


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## Leandro Gardini (Oct 1, 2004)

Craig , I received you musics...yes , there?s many thing there I tryed to mockup on QLSO and could not get a good result...thnaks for sending them , there?s some really convincing passages!!!

I?ve just find out a way to simulate some very realistic runs with woodwind...I?ve made some samples to show you guys , if someone host the files I can post them here...the?re very small MP3!!!


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## Craig Sharmat (Oct 1, 2004)

email them back to me...i'll host later

going biking in a few minutes

Craig


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## Leandro Gardini (Oct 2, 2004)

Thnak you again Craig...
...Here are some very fast scales played with woodwind...I found them convincing but some other people don?t...anyway , I think they would work great when in background...what do you think???
http://www.scoredog.tv/Leo%27s%20glisses/Audio%2001_3-17.mp3 (http://www.scoredog.tv/Leo%27s%20glisse ... 1_3-17.mp3)

http://www.scoredog.tv/Leo%27s%20glisses/Audio%2002_3.mp3 (http://www.scoredog.tv/Leo%27s%20glisse ... 2002_3.mp3)

http://www.scoredog.tv/Leo%27s%20glisses/Audio%2003_04.mp3 (http://www.scoredog.tv/Leo%27s%20glisse ... 003_04.mp3)

http://www.scoredog.tv/Leo%27s%20glisses/Audio%2004_05.mp3 (http://www.scoredog.tv/Leo%27s%20glisse ... 004_05.mp3)

http://www.scoredog.tv/Leo%27s%20glisses/Audio%2005_02.mp3 (http://www.scoredog.tv/Leo%27s%20glisse ... 005_02.mp3)

http://www.scoredog.tv/Leo%27s%20glisses/Audio%2006_11.mp3 (http://www.scoredog.tv/Leo%27s%20glisse ... 006_11.mp3)

http://www.scoredog.tv/Leo%27s%20glisses/Audio%2007_05.mp3 (http://www.scoredog.tv/Leo%27s%20glisse ... 007_05.mp3)


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## lux (Oct 2, 2004)

hmmm, I'm not a great expert of that, but here's how it how they sounds to me:

1) good, the best sounding imho
2) less good (something with very hard attack on lower octave)
3),4) and 5) not good to me (thats not your issue Leo, that ewql oboe sounds really unnatural to me, and think theres not much you can do about it)
6) and 7) good

hope this helps

Luca


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 2, 2004)

Stick with #1 Leo - to my ears it sounds the best.


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## Craig Sharmat (Oct 2, 2004)

This is a repeat of what I sent to Leo,

No 7 kind of worked for me but was drenched in reverb. All others suffered from having the attacks of each note sounding the same. Just my opinion. 

I think within a few months none of this will matter much as there most likely will be more options available. Again Orchestral Colors and AO have runs.

give me a momnet ...I'll post an AO combo


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 2, 2004)

Hmm - I thought that was the sound of the far mics in QLSO - if that is the case it may be simply a mixing issue where more of the close and stage mics may need to be brought more upfront?


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## Craig Sharmat (Oct 2, 2004)

Here is AO...flute in 3 octaves...something i'd never do...and piccalo in 2 octaves combined

http://www.scoredog.tv/gliss.mp3


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## Leandro Gardini (Oct 2, 2004)

Thnak you all for the input!!!


...the first and the second that I presented were made with the AO playing major scale...they?re the same but the second one is two flutes playing in octaves...the problem on the second AO one is something related to the orchestration because the flute playing fast scale does not sound good on the range I chose...it would sound better if it was an flute and an oboe or clarinet on the lower scale...
...all the rest were made with QLSO playing cromatic scale...the last one is the far position...
...I tryed to blend these and some other files all together and I got a very interesting/realistic result...try it yourself!!!
Craig , as you suggested I looked for the runs of AO and the still very useful today , but the problem is that sometimes I need some certain runs like cromatic , major , minor and exoctic scales begining in an note and ending in other note the AO and all the other libraries don?t have , and there?s also the tempo issue...I really liked to see that I finally was able to "contruct " my own runs...they still don?t souding perfect but they?re working when in background...I haven?t checked the Orchestral Colours yet , I?l see!!!


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## Craig Sharmat (Oct 2, 2004)

If you find the AO runs limiting, than orchestral colors will most likely be more limiting.

When something goes by as a really fast gliss, sometimes the inbetween notes are not that important. you can also manipulate relative majors into minors and modes etc....to add versatility.

also you could time condense the AO runs to match tempo up to a point.


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