# The ostrasizing of EastWest, I am taking the pulse on that one.



## Valérie_D (Dec 10, 2014)

Hello,

So over the past few years, I heard a LOT of bad things about eastwest but often, I seemed to receive the heartfelt comments without the source or any valuable explanation, just a generic ''I hate play'', or ''EastWest, no.''.

Even amongts my friends composers in Montréal, just an overral and generic no.

I just listened to their demos and I thought they sounded just fine, they are less pricey than most companies and I know they do amazing sales around the boxing day.

Can anyone chime in and tell me if you use their librarys, what are your general impressions of them, can you compose trailers and Professional music with their libraries?

I am looking for opinions not based on ''Yeah no one uses them'' :D 

I might get myself their orchestral series soon.

Thank you!


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## Valérie_D (Dec 10, 2014)

*I would use this Library with VE Pro and I have Kontakt 5.


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## Walid F. (Dec 10, 2014)

That's a load of bull, that no one uses them. They have amazing samples, superbly engineered by Nick Phoenix and others of that same caliber. 

It's that many people are experiencing issues with their engine, Play, and that they haven't developed for Kontakt instead. Also, people are unhappy with how they treat them in terms of support.

But overall, East West deliver amazing samples that many top composers and producers use. Don't fall into what other people say, listen for yourself and try it out and make up your own mind. I think EWQL does great job, but I too don't like that they persist with their engine like this, but so far I haven't had many issues with it. Cheap, professional and really powerful samples from their Hollywood series and other. 

Try it out for yourself!

W.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 10, 2014)

There's nothing wrong with East West's libraries, in fact many are terrific. I think the bad smell comes from people having felt ripped-off when libraries they paid handsomely for went for much less not long (enough) after. Also, there were heavy-handed tactics in their forum, along with a general sense that, for a while, the ship had been docked, upgrades to Play were slow in coming. Finally, their library output has significantly lessened over the past few years, so they seem behind the dynamic Spitfire, 8Dio, etc.

J'espère que cela t'aide un peu. :wink:


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## shapeshifter00 (Dec 10, 2014)

I only have Hollywood Strings Silver and Hollywood Brass Silver, but I'm gonna upgrade to Gold one day. I love the sound and it is exactly how I want it to be, I have no issues with play and I believe that a lot of the bugs in the past is now fixed and often the negative you still hear comes from those that had a bad experience in the past and replaced it with something else. You should however have an SSD disc to put the libraries on to avoid problems, PCs today are stronger and I think you will do fine. Right now I can upgrade to Gold version for 150$ and it is a no-brainer deal, sadly I will not be able to afford it now right before christmas. I also use Albion but I don't like the fact that it is not as flexible when I can't separate the instruments and I dont want everything to be played in unison all the time, so for me HWS and HWB would be my main library to use with albion for layering and replace the low strings.

I have no experience with their support and I rarely need any assistance with most the information needed available by trying a simple google search so unless there are issues with the download missing files and not your PC struggling, I guess the support will be fine, plus Jay Asher is here on the forum and can probably help out for some things. In my opinion I think you can't go wrong with the gold version at least.


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## dgburns (Dec 10, 2014)

I use Play,and a few East West libs.I ended up dedicating a pc slave to use exclusively to load the play libs.I sometimes use them on the main mac pro,but very seldom.I write for film/tv,mostly tv,no stock library work.in my setup,I have three pc slaves,and they are all win8.1 feeding to a mac by VEPro.They are on everyday all day long.Once in a while,I might get a crash in VEP if I change metaframes often,so now I just "delete all projects" first and then load any new metaframes without a hitch.
On my systems,play is a bit heavier on resources,and on my pc slave,i have 64 gig ram and run play on ssd's only.I can het some glitches once in a while,but nothing that causes concern,and nothing I don't also get from some Konakt stuff loaded on similar pc's.Once the play sounds are loaded,they are pretty bulletproof for me,and at times I am pounding the crap out of the voices.Incidentally,I try to reduce the voice allocation from the 64 down to something smaller to avoid too much strain.Some libs like orch perc do not need so many voices and I think it helps overall stability.
The play libs ,to my ears,are a bit more eq'd and ready to go without as much needed to get clarity,but that might be just my personal taste here.
It is important to make sure the libs are properly installed.Once so,and well setup,they will give you tons of usable service,imvho.You do need to take the time to understand the in and outs of how the software works,what to avoid and how to optimize for your needs.
my two cents


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## lucianogiacomozzi (Dec 10, 2014)

I use and run a few of their libraries; Symphonic Orchestra Gold, Hollywood Brass Gold, Hollywood Strings Silver, Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds Silver and Gypsy, all of those are absolutely fantastic, they run well. 

SO still lives up to being one of THE best and most complete orchestral sample libraries out there even with it's lack of legato articulations, I still use it for techniques such as Bartok pizzicato and battuto col legno when I don't have another library that gets the job done and the woodwinds and percussion, I still use regularly. 

Hollywood Brass is another great library, even with just the Main mics in Gold, it's pretty dry. The legato is excellent, the horns are very good for trailer music. They have a great selection of effects in Gold and Diamond for most of the instruments. They have a very powerful tone which is very much suited for trailer music. One of my favourite patches is the trumpet mariachi, it's a little sustain patch with lots of vibrato, and the trombone jazz patches are great.

Hollywood Strings, I only have the Silver version, it is absolutely lovely in it's tone, it's great. It really is worth it, looking to get the upgrade to Gold, but I've heard many scare stories about the power needed to run that! The legato is pretty awesome on these and the string shorts have bite!

Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds is good, the weakest of the Hollywood bunch, imo, but still pretty strong. I've only got silver but it still finds it's way into my compositions. Legato on these is weaker and some of the patches sound too synthy to my ears but they do have some gems in there. I like the effects. 

Gypsy, well, the solo violin in this library... My God. It is absolutely amazing. It also has a trombone, nice selection of guitars percussion, stomps and a cimbalom, very useful! Less for trailer music, I'd say unless you want a solo violin soaring over the top and a bit of ethnic flare from the cimbalom. 

I'm still on PLAY 3, I haven't ventured to 4 yet as I'm completely happy with 3. It runs well on my old, old quad-core Mac Pro, OS X 10.6.8 with 20GB RAM and it all works on my 2009 Mac Mini, 4GB RAM, same OS. I hope this helps somewhat!


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## SDCP (Dec 10, 2014)

I had major problems with Play a few years ago. I contacted the company and instead of solving the problem, they blamed my system and said it was my fault. It was not. I was getting random, loud noise blasts from Play when I loaded an instrument. To the point that I was afraid that my monitors were going to be damaged.

Then, on one of their forums, I mentioned this problem, and one of their programmers went on a heated rant about how no one should be criticizing the company or their products.

So I just stopped buying EastWest after that. They may have improved since then, but that experience left me sour on the company.


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## gsilbers (Dec 10, 2014)

The EW libraries don't sound bad at all. they are good. 

the issue is with the custom player they have. 

it used to be a LOT ... like a LOT worst and people complained. 

They came up with a somewhat good update but it didn't have background loading of samples. 

then they added background loading of samples. 

the issue is that it was too little too late and a lot of people are spooked by PLAY. 

this happens to any product which has a bad start. 

with that said, I have HS and HB and piano. 

in PC it works fine but mac it keeps crashing it. 

the other issue is that no matter what it is , EW customer support makes it seem it is always YOUR fault. 

the other issue is that PLAY is very inefficient compared to other players like kontakt. same size patches will occupay more ram space in play than in kontakt. 

you can see videos from Daniel james about this. 

Plus you NEED to have a very expensive computer to run play efficiently?! like wtf if kontakt and other players don't have those issues. 

there's rumors that even the in house composers use EW libraries in kontakt due to how bad play is. 

with that said, the sound of their libraries is amazing. 

my own personal feeling is that they are like used car salesman with their "always discounted prices" and 70% off and "great sales" 
which are just cheap marketing techniques I find tripe and misleading. but, then again nothing wrong with that in a free market.


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## davidgary73 (Dec 10, 2014)

@Valérie_D

I have my reservation too about EastWest after hearing unpleasant feedback from many users. 

Well, i went by faith and took a dive and purchase Hollywood Brass Gold and Hollywood Strings Gold with the BOGOF offer. So far all is working well running with Play 4 and loading time with SSD is fast.

Like:

1) It sounds good  
2) Works fine with my current 12 core Mac Pro and host in VEP 5. 

Dislike:

1) Play engine is so DATED 
2) Can't purge samples like how Kontakt does
3) Some patches have fixed CC and you can't change or modify them e.g. CC11 to CC1
4) Can't custom your own instruments with keyswitch
5) Some patch still have issues and hang notes
6) The run patch sounds weird

That said, i may not be buying anymore libs from EW. 

I would do much better spending my money on Kontakt Libs with lots of flexibility and customization with Kontakt.


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## Valérie_D (Dec 10, 2014)

Thanks everyone! I have a mac pro 8core with 32 gigs of ram, I would be glad to run Eastwest Libraries in Kontakt.

Anyone knows how?

Oui Ned, ça aide beaucoup!


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## R.Cato (Dec 10, 2014)

Honestly, I have been very disappointed with Play over the years I have used it. 

BUT

Since the last update I haven't encountered any bug, problem , crash. Atm it's rock solid at least on my Win7 64 bit PC. Does it take a bit more RAM than other libraries? Yes. But that's mainly due to the huge amount of samples Play has to stream.

Their libraries sound amazing and offer tons of options. If you like their sound and have a decent machine buy their stuff, nothing to be afraid of.

Regarding their support: I always got an answer in time. Unfortunately often it didn't helped me solving my issue, because most of my issues were bugs they fixed with play updates later.

Saleswise, it is as it is. They're just trying to generate as much revenue as they can with their stuff. Sample developement is still a business and that's their way to roll. The same goes for 8dio, cinesamples. Spitfire....they just have different approaches. None of them does it because they want to heal the world...


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## Michael K. Bain (Dec 10, 2014)

If you are considering the Symphonic Orchestra, just remember that unless you buy Platinum, the samples are very wet, and in my experience don't mix well with other libraries.


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## JohnG (Dec 10, 2014)

Hello,

East West has been a great investment for me, and I am a fan.

The biggest investment one makes in any library is time -- setting up and adjusting a template is a never-ending process. Therefore, getting the sound you want, based on demos, walk-throughs and other users' projects is the best way to go. For me, East West libraries have been 100% worth the time and yielded great results. Luckily, there are many good tools available to us today, and I admire a lot of developers, but I think East West is excellent.

While nothing is the same as a live orchestra, for many years I've used a mostly-East West sound on national television projects, video games, dozens of trailers for major films, and scoring independent feature films. Some of the films have been released theatrically, and they sounded awesome through the large sound systems. In some cases, I've been fortunate to have a full orchestra and choir; sometimes though, East West has shouldered most of the load.

I have bought a lot of EW libraries over the years, paying full price for libraries on their original release that, today, cost less than 10% of what I paid. Also, I have received some free products from East West, just so you know.

Technical

Over many years, I have had a few hiccoughs with PLAY but, like many here, I have had problems with other engines at times as well. Today, I run PLAY constantly, on an older Mac (2008) and on a number of aging PCs with no problems at all. My computers' operating systems range from Vista to Windows 7. The Mac runs Mavericks. Some of my PLAY software is updated to the latest version but, frankly, a good bit of it is not. It all works fine so I haven't updated everything.

One library, Hollywood Strings, generated a lot (maybe the majority?) of frustration with East West. In some cases, it was clear that users mistakenly tried to run its most demanding patches on average computers and they experienced problems. The great thing about Hollywood Strings, however, is that even the simplest patches sound absolutely beautiful -- I do have a strong computer for strings, but I use some of the "light" patches and they sound excellent. Besides, computers have gotten much, much more powerful since HS' release.

Like many, I run (almost) all my samples and v.i.s through VE Pro because it spreads the load out on the cores well and helps with mixing; I recommend VE Pro whether one is using Kontakt, Spectrasonics, PLAY, Zebra, NI plugins, or whatever. It is fantastic software. I also use SSDs for almost all my samples (not just EW -- every library manufacturer).

I would be very happy to correspond with anyone who has questions about EW libraries. Feel free to PM me or email.

[note: I have received free products from East West]


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## JohnG (Dec 10, 2014)

Valérie_D @ 10th December 2014 said:


> I would be glad to run Eastwest Libraries in Kontakt.



Malhereusment, c'est pas possible.


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## bbunker (Dec 10, 2014)

Valerie,

The Hollywood series is stunning overall. The brass are as good as anything out there. The strings have stunning control and lyricism; probably not the best bang-for-CPU/RAM buck, but a great-sounding library. In Perc, the Hollywood Perc, or Stormdrum, these are awesome and constantly used. The HW winds might be a bit weak comparatively, but they definitely aren't bad. 

And to echo JohnG's point - just basic, simple banks of the simplest patches sound great. EW almost shoots themselves in the foot by giving so much material - I think the feeling is that every single patch needs to be loaded in to get "the most" from a library. I'd suggest that getting "the most" from something has to be wrapped around the actual product that comes out of it, not by the template you have that no one sees.

If I remember right, I actually bought HOW Silver first; I found it a great complement to the VSL winds, and thought "if this is as bad as the Hollywood Series is, I want the rest," and bought the Strings and Brass the next day. And upgraded to Gold the next week. That basically sums it up pretty easily right there!


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Dec 10, 2014)

I own Hollywood Strings and Brass, and besides a really lovely sound, they have what a lot of the competing libraries lack: More layers for low dynamics. Of course much of the OMG EPIX FTW crowd only care about the loudest layer, but for quieter expressive writing they are beautiful.

Personally I've never had real problems with PLAY, but as my template has grown to use almost all of my RAM, I'm finding it hard to squeeze any more PLAY stuff in there - even though I want to. 

If I could wish for only one thing in a PLAY update, it would be Kontakt style purging.


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## TGV (Dec 10, 2014)

I have a love/hate relationship with them. As others point out: the samples are great, the Play engine is ... so-so on a mac. It has gotten better, but there was a time when it messed up my work so much that I deleted EWQL Symphonic Choir from my SSD and replaced it with Voices Of Prague, which turned out to work much smoother.

At the same time, I'm a sucker for good offers, so I did get HB & HWW Gold recently. It sounds wonderful, but still has some problems: I do hear noisy ticks and clicks sometimes, and it pops up this "low on memory" warning when in fact there is more than 5GB available in file cache (which will be given by the OS to an application that requests memory).

So: roses have thorns.


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## khollister (Dec 10, 2014)

I think the selection of comments here have been pretty accurate and even handed. The angst about EWQL over the past few years has been mostly about the evolution of the PLAY engine and the strong (and sometimes eccentric) personalities of the company principals and their customer relation skills. To suggest that the libraries are not similar in sonic quality to other major product lines or not "ready for professional use" is completely unfounded in my opinion.

While PLAY does not have all of the customization opportunities of Kontakt and is not as efficient with respect to memory usage, the recent versions are certainly useable and with todays computers and availability of SSD's, I fail to understand the problem. Could it be better? - sure. But don't let PLAY vs Kontakt dissuade you from the great bargains that many of the EWQL libraries now represent.

I own a lot of the "usual suspect" libraries from Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Audiobro, Cinesamples, etc. and I just bought the entire Hollywood Orchestra bundle + Stormdrum 3. 

Don't confuse the sometimes public display of the company's dirty laundry with the sound or musicality of the products.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 10, 2014)

khollister @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> I think the selection of comments here have been pretty accurate and even handed. The angst about EWQL over the past few years has been mostly about the evolution of the PLAY engine and the strong (and sometimes eccentric) personalities of the company principals and their customer relation skills. To suggest that the libraries are not similar in sonic quality to other major product lines or not "ready for professional use" is completely unfounded in my opinion.
> 
> While PLAY does not have all of the customization opportunities of Kontakt and is not as efficient with respect to memory usage, the recent versions are certainly useable and with todays computers and availability of SSD's, I fail to understand the problem. Could it be better? - sure. But don't let PLAY vs Kontakt dissuade you from the great bargains that many of the EWQL libraries now represent.
> 
> ...



Well stated, Keith.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Dec 10, 2014)

I have HWS and HWB brass and both are excellent. I run them on a Win7 slave using VEP, and it is rock solid. No different than any of my Kontakt libraries. If you like the sound, I don't think you can go wrong.

I also have Berlin Strings and Dimension Strings and Sample Modelling Brass. HWS are my "big orchestra" template, and they are not in any way a "second class library".

HWB brass definitely does a more aggressive/epic sound than the SM Brass. The Low Brass patch is great. 

I don't think you can go wrong. HWB Gold is a particularly good value because you get all articulations. With HWS you may want the Diamond version if you write divisi. If you don't need the divisi samples, then the Gold HWS is a again, a great value.


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## wst3 (Dec 10, 2014)

I believe that as with most things in life, the people who have complaints tend to speak more often than the people who are satisfied. So the public view is skewed against EastWest.

That said, except for Jay, my experiences with EastWest support have been underwhelming. To the point that I'm just not willing to gamble right now, in spite of the fact that I think their Hollywood series sound lovely, and represent a great value.

I suspect (and I'm not a marketing guru) that they'd get a lot more traction if they'd offer some kind of demo license for Play, and this seems to be the root of many concerns.

I tried Play the first time they offered a demo, several years ago, and it beat the snot out of my computer. Sounded good, but ate most of my resources. OK... that computer was a bit behind the curve.

I tried Play again last year when they had the GhostWriter contest. This time around it was a lot better in terms of resource use, and I was able to figure out my way around it. Sadly I wasn't impressed with the library, so that was that.

Very recently I built a new machine, and it screams! If there had been an evaluation copy of Play I would have absolutely tested it, and if it had worked I think I'd have taken advantage of one or more of their recent sales.

Alas I emailed them asking about some form of evaluation license and the reply was less than heart-warming. Not the rudest reply I've ever received, but I got he message, they didn't really want my business.

Now perhaps they treat customers better than prospects? I don't know, and I'd find that a wee bit unusual.

My suggestion to you... ignore the bad press, contact them yourself with any questions you have and judge them on that. Their libraries sound great, and while PLAY is not as sophisticated as Kontakt, it does play the libraries, and sometimes that helps (less to tinker with!)

I'll also volunteer Jay Asher as a resource. He is knowledgeable and very patient. He does work as their public face, but I still trust him, and his advice.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 10, 2014)

Bill it isn't that "they didn't really want my business."
It is more that they have a business model that has been successful for over 25 years and are admittedly less willing to bend it than some other developers.

Thanks for the kind words btw.


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## KEnK (Dec 10, 2014)

a former Play user here

used to do a lot of midi stuff in the 90s.
stopped to focus on 'real music' until about 2008
picked up SO, Gol and Stormdrum-(as a restarter set)
i did a lot of research, expected it to be glitchy-
but for my budget it was the best bang for the buck.
it was very glitchy
i didn't realize how bad it was until i gradually started using Kontakt libs

when i tried to update from P2 to P3 it was a complete meltdown
nearly 2 weeks of tech support and i was exactly at the same place-
which is to say nowhere
wrote a note to the forum admin who put me in touch w/
someone else who knew what was going on-
problem solved in about 2 more days

i was happy about the 2nd degree of tech support-
but after that i just stopped thinking of Play as an option
like many i just pretended i didn't own it.

yes the EW sounds are good- but so are other libs that run in Kontakt
Kontakt is superior in every way, so many more options
I won't ever consider Play again-
Wasted far too much time w/ it already

the other reason that EW has a bad rep (imo)
they had a habit of banning people and censoring posts on their forum.
I used to frequent the place.
It got to a point where only glowing fanboy posts were allowed.
If you had a complaint or issue, you had to be very careful w/ your wording.
or poof...

I've heard that things have improved regarding Play and possibly
the censorship issues- but
I've had enough for one lifetime

i try not to get into Play dissing fests-
but you asked :wink: 
k

ps- perhaps my personal experience w/ EW and Play
is long enough ago to be irrelevant. 
the technology has continued to evolve- 
but those are my experiences and why i'm not interested
also i'll echo the "blaming the users system" thing that was mentioned-
I always felt they were exaggerating the sys req at the time.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 10, 2014)

KEnK @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> Kontakt is superior in every way, so many more options



I believe that is an opinion that does not hold up in the light of day, and I say this as a guy who uses a lot of Kontakt stuff AND is a beta tester for it.

The Kontakt browser is a hot mess and many of us testers have complained to N.I. about it for years with no substantial improvement. The Library tab only displays libraries that work with the Kontkat player. Creating the multi-output default is so convoluted that people have paid me to set it up for them.

if you move your library to another drive with every single instrument from that library that loads in your template you have to redirect it and then re-save it, unlike Play where you simple guide it to the new location or the EXS24 which once you redirect one instrument finds them all.

Is Kontakt far more full-featured than Play? Absolutely. Does it give the use more control? Absolutely. Does the engine intrinsically sound better? Not IMHO. Does the fact that Kontakt allows so much GUI customization sometimes lead to the issue Keith mentioned that he got tired of dealing with so many different GUIS and work flows that he ordered the Hollywood Series, because it is more consistent and therefore allowed him to concentrate more on the music? You betcha.

Superior in _some_ ways, maybe even _many_ ways? Fine. But in _every_ way? Nossiree.


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## BenBotkin (Dec 10, 2014)

I have used HS Diamond since it first came out in 2010, and it has been, and remained, my go-to string library (for most things). I recently picked up HB Gold for $250 and have been using it about equally with Cinebrass Core, which I've had since it came out and love. For some things I like it way more, even though I just got it and am still learning it's strengths.

The price-drop complaint seems weak to me. I paid $1300-ish for HS (or whatever diamond cost upon release) and the usage I've gotten out of it is worth WAY more than $700-800 I could have saved it I waited until this year to buy it.

PLAY has been a little dodgy over the years, but at this point, aside from one predicable export issue I have a simple work-around for, it is entirely stable for me at this point on Win7 in Cubase 7.5. Granted, I have 64GB of ram and mutiple SSDs, but the extra ram load is worth it to me. (At this point, SSDs should really be a part of your music workstation anyway.) 

HS and HB are, in my opinion, A-class libraries available for B-class prices. If HS and HB were available in Kontakt for the same price, they would probably be considered the biggest no-brainer steals in our small pocket of the music industry. Some still consider them that, despite PLAY.


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## BenBotkin (Dec 10, 2014)

Oh, and one year ago I was based on a no-SSD, 8GB ram system, but I used the "lite" patches from HS and got basically equivalent results. So the ram load issue is really only an issue if you keeps tons of "powerful" patches loaded in your template.


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## KEnK (Dec 10, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> KEnK @ Wed Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Kontakt is superior in every way, so many more options
> ...


 :mrgreen: :lol: :wink: 
very funny Jay
you're a good guy

we'll let your statement sink or swim on it's own merits ~o) 

k


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## HardyP (Dec 10, 2014)

Hi Valerie,

I think most of the mentioned points are valid also from my perspective. I started with the old Symphonic Orhcestra, which is a bit outdated now (without true legato, eg), but there are tons of great music using that (https://soundcloud.com/darrylodonovan/q ... al-scherzo).
Later I tried out the HS+HB, starting with the Silver versions: small investment, not very burdening for your system, eg. And what shall I say: I LOVE the sound!!
So in my opinion, take advantage of the actual sale going on (BOGO + reduction) - it´s amazingly cheap then, means even if you end using just a couple of patches, you won´t regret it. And if it turns out fine: Go on with upgrades to Gold/Diamond or get yourself a CCC3!
Play is quite stable, but what I also do not like is the lack of custom CC or keyswitching.

Regards, Hardy


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## madbulk (Dec 10, 2014)

khollister @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> I think the selection of comments here have been pretty accurate and even handed. The angst about EWQL over the past few years has been mostly about the evolution of the PLAY engine and the strong (and sometimes eccentric) personalities of the company principals and their customer relation skills. To suggest that the libraries are not similar in sonic quality to other major product lines or not "ready for professional use" is completely unfounded in my opinion.
> 
> While PLAY does not have all of the customization opportunities of Kontakt and is not as efficient with respect to memory usage, the recent versions are certainly useable and with todays computers and availability of SSD's, I fail to understand the problem. Could it be better? - sure. But don't let PLAY vs Kontakt dissuade you from the great bargains that many of the EWQL libraries now represent.
> 
> ...



Yup. That's essentially it.


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## gpax (Dec 10, 2014)

Since you are taking a pulse, my EKG with East West - over the course of fourteen years - would show wild fluctuations in cardiac response. Sometimes erratic, sometimes at rest, and sometimes indicating a heart attack; There has even been a flat-line reading or two along the way. More recently, the pulse has been very good with EW for me, both in terms of updates to software, and the support itself. 

Tainted love? Yes. (The 1981 version.)

In terms of what this says about overall health, doctors would advise on two fronts: One is to make a complete lifestyle change and avoid that which could damage the heart. Others might recommend strategies to better manage those things you continue to live with.

But quite frankly, Jay Asher is responsible for saving my relationship with East West, and restoring it to a more healthy place. Also, their customer support (Jennifer) has always been wonderful, even in the midst of more turbulent times.

In reality, I just don’t use PLAY that much anymore - not because of any disdain, but because of the paradigm shifts that have been occurring elsewhere in recent years. I actually kind of feel sad about the current state of anemia, and find myself looking to see if they have one more breakthrough product and/or innovation to unleash. 

I hope they do. 

G


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## AC986 (Dec 10, 2014)

If East West stuff is so good, how come I don't own any of it? :shock:


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## José Herring (Dec 10, 2014)

I can tell you my history with EW. 

Years ago, I decided to take the sample orchestra more seriously. I spent a good month listening to every sample orchestra at the time. I decided on EWQLSO Gold because it fit my budget and sounded great to me. I for some reason even preferred the sound over platinum, which at the time was $5000 and required 5 computers to run.

I had a hard time with Gold in the beginning and I found Northern Sounds and started trying to get help. Nick P. was on the forum and helped me quite a bit so that I could run it successfully.

Not long after that Nick P. was arguing with me over something on the off topic section of the forum. He was abrasive, passionate, it didn't bother me one bit, but I guess others hate that somebody else has an opinion. He's since stopped participating in forum chatter which is a shame really.

Then I had a hard time with my first Play library, and that's when things got a little ugly. But, again, for some reason it didn't bother me. 

I later hopped on HS and realized that it took special hardware to run. People were complaining for a year about this, but I gave EW the benefit of the doubt and asked for the specs of the system that they tested Play on. I realized that I had a similar system and Play has always run fine for me on my system since Play 3. Better than fine actually. I then also got HB and no problems.

I've helped others to build similar systems and they're having no problems either. At least with Play.

In the end, those on Mac hated the Hollywood Series on Play, and those with decent spec'd PC's haven't a problem. 

All the animosity for EW comes from either Mac users or people that have low spec'd PC's. If you have a decent PC to run the Hollywood Series, you'll seriously have no problems.

So it is what it is. If you want a trouble free Hollywood Series, you'll need a decent PC to get the most out of it. Unless you can afford the latest Mac Pro, which I think can run the libraries well enough if you have enough ram.

People hate that. They want something that they can plug into their existing setup without a hitch. So they bash Play, EW and anything related. Truth is, there are plenty of other libraries that run on Kontakt. So, there's no need to bash. If you want to use the Hollywood Series it's going to come with some requirements that can be costly. If you don't want to pay the cost, then get something else.


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## gpax (Dec 10, 2014)

@Valérie_D
I should add that I'm responding to the title of your thread, not so much the specifics in your post.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 10, 2014)

What Jose' said.

Hereis an experiment for you. Subtract the cost of the Hollywood Series, even Diamond, from a comparable package with as many mics and articulations and see how close that puts you towards the cost of a decent slave PC with 2 SSDS.

You might be surprised.


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## Mystic (Dec 10, 2014)

I own most of the EW libraries and I find they are incredible quality. I even don't mind Play. It's much more stable now than it has ever been.

My problem with EW has always been the lack of customer support and the sense of arrogance I get from the company. A few times in the past I've had technical issues that needed dealt with including sending hardware to them to then be shipped back to me and they sat on it for several weeks constantly making excuses when I could actually get a hold of them. I also don't believe anyone there looks at emails because I had to contact the admin on the forum to get an answer a week after I sent an email to support.

So yes, great products but they need to step up their game with the support.


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## Valérie_D (Dec 10, 2014)

This is what I find a bit tricky :
On my mac pro, (8cores, 32gigs ram) I have SATA port too, excuses my complete ignorance of SSD drives here but, is there an ssd compatible with sata?

The fact that play works better on pc, even though my mac is overeall a great computer, is what bugs me a little.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 10, 2014)

Mystic @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> I own most of the EW libraries and I find they are incredible quality. I even don't mind Play. It's much more stable now than it has ever been.
> 
> My problem with EW has always been the lack of customer support and the sense of arrogance I get from the company. A few times in the past I've had technical issues that needed dealt with including sending hardware to them to then be shipped back to me and they sat on it for several weeks constantly making excuses when I could actually get a hold of them. I also don't believe anyone there looks at emails because I had to contact the admin on the forum to get an answer a week after I sent an email to support.
> 
> So yes, great products but they need to step up their game with the support.



I will be the first to admit that Doug and Nick are not warm and fuzzy and they are not going to come on a forum, as some competitors do (and I am NOT criticizing them for this) and say, "Oh thank you for your suggestions, they are so helpful to us, we love you so much."

And though I think most here who have had personal dealings with me in person, over the phone or Skype will say that I actually AM warm, I know that my typed responses do not convey that at times. Also, though I mostly control it, I do sometimes get angry at statements I deem unfair or inaccurate and in typical East Coast Jewish fashion, can be verbally aggressive.

But I DO care about getting the people the help they need and the people I send the issues on to also do, very much care and are very responsive.


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## Valérie_D (Dec 10, 2014)

Hey Jay, Yes thank you so much for your help, I am really tempted to have a pc built but pc has never been my forte so if anyone has the answers to the 2 following questions, they are most welcome :

1. What pc (with ssd drives) do you recommand? (any thread or link appreciated)

2. How do you set it up as a slave on your macpro and does everything runs smoothly and efficiently with Ve pro?
I Wonder if it becomes slower since it is on a slave and via an ethernet cable.

This would really solve my quest for a sustainable system


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## José Herring (Dec 10, 2014)

Valérie_D @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> This is what I find a bit tricky :
> On my mac pro, (8cores, 32gigs ram) I have SATA port too, excuses my complete ignorance of SSD drives here but, is there an ssd compatible with sata?
> 
> The fact that play works better on pc, even though my mac is overeall a great computer, is what bugs me a little.



It's hard to find these days SSD that are Sata 2. Also, even with Sata 2 the Hollywood series will have problems. 

On a PC it's a different matter. 

I'm not sure that it should bother you though. I use Cubase. Up until recently, Cubase worked better on PC than on Mac. So, when I decided to switch to Cubase from DP, I built a PC. It would never occur to me to blame Steinberg for the fact that Cubase didn't run well on my existing Mac. I just switched. :lol:

That's why I have hard time understanding the viewpoint that if HS and HB works better on PC then people get upset that they can't use it well enough on their mac. Just build a PC for it, or use another library. Actually, Berlin strings is very good sounding and is similar to HS in programming, though the section sizes are smaller it sounds great. Also, though not talked about as much, Cinestrings is a great all around library from what I've heard. The demos sound great to me.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 10, 2014)

Valérie_D @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> Hey Jay, Yes thank you so much for your help, I am really tempted to have a pc built but pc has never been my forte so if anyone has the answers to the 2 following questions, they are most welcome :
> 
> 1. What pc (with ssd drives) do you recommand? (any thread or link appreciated)
> 
> ...



There are a number of discussions here with PC build recommendations. Order the parts from the internet at the best prices and take them to your local computer store to assemble.

It works brilliantly with VE Pro connected to the Mac simply with an ethernet cable, no slow down at all.


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## José Herring (Dec 10, 2014)

Valérie_D @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> Hey Jay, Yes thank you so much for your help, I am really tempted to have a pc built but pc has never been my forte so if anyone has the answers to the 2 following questions, they are most welcome :
> 
> 1. What pc (with ssd drives) do you recommand? (any thread or link appreciated)
> 
> ...



A PC with an I7 chip, with at least 32gigs of ram. Any recent PC will have Sata 3. If you wait a year the new chips will have an even faster SATA 16g. 

VEPro practically sets itself up. Just instal, put it on your network and it will be ready. They have a free demo that you can use to get practice. But, I burnt through the demo time just trying to figure it out at first. But Vienna was kind enough to grant me one more demo license before I bought it.

If you get a PC and VEPro, I and many others can help you to set it up.

If you can afford it, I would look at Vision DAW for a decent VEPro slave. They'll also set it up for you. 

If you feel adventurous and want to save money, I can help you build your own PC and set it. The benefit of that is that you know at the end of the processes everything about your machine.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 10, 2014)

Jose' did that for me. He is terrific at it and a great guy that I am proud to call a friend.


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## Valérie_D (Dec 10, 2014)

@ Josejherring : thank you,that's very generous of you, I will probably contact you when the time comes, I'll check out Vision Daw at the moment.


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## Valérie_D (Dec 10, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> Jose' did that for me. He is terrific at it and a great guy that I am proud to call a friend.



Yippy! Support and help from nice people, the world is making sense!


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## Rv5 (Dec 10, 2014)

Hmmmm, I've said my fair share of things on this topic. The sonic quality of the samples are incredible, the vision of Nick P and Thomas B result in something pretty special. This draws people down the tunnel of Play issues and customer support issues and it can all become a bit of a battle. Personally, I wish I hadn't purchased the Hollywood series. I lost so much time working around Play, investing in a PC, re-setting up templates, trying Play 3 then 4 just to find continued problems. Support was bizzare, I lost passion and inspiration where I found it with other libraries and haven't looked back. A couple of schools and universities I'm involved in decided against EastWest based on these issues. Thomas B creates some of the most wonderful music and according to a recent facebook post runs custom and commercial Kontakt libraries, I always recommend Kontakt too.


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## José Herring (Dec 10, 2014)

Rv5 @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> Hmmmm, I've said my fair share of things on this topic. The sonic quality of the samples are incredible, the vision of Nick P and Thomas B result in something pretty special. This draws people down the tunnel of Play issues and customer support issues and it can all become a bit of a battle. Personally, I wish I hadn't purchased the Hollywood series. I lost so much time working around Play, investing in a PC, re-setting up templates, trying Play 3 then 4 just to find continued problems. Support was bizzare, I lost passion and inspiration where I found it with other libraries and haven't looked back. A couple of schools and universities I'm involved in decided against EastWest based on these issues. Thomas B creates some of the most wonderful music and according to a recent facebook post runs custom and commercial Kontakt libraries, I always recommend Kontakt too.



What problems are you having? What PC did you get? A lot of problems can be resolved.

Thomas B, can afford his custom library. It cost him $300,000 I think I heard. If you can do it, then great. If not, it might be worth just explaining your problem and then finding a solution.


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## chimuelo (Dec 10, 2014)

Val you will love the sound of EW instruments.
Jay and Jose have given great advice too.

Read up on the Samsung XP941 and ASRock Z97 Extreme 6 motherboard combo.
PLAY benefits from having such speed.
Plus the energy/wattage needed for my rig runs off of a silent 260Watt PSU.
It's as fast and green as they come.

For Kontakt 5 only this isn't really necessary, but with EW HS, HW, and HB these M.2 devices w/ 32GBs of RAM and a fast 4.6 Haswell will smoke any SATA III rig as it waits for patches to load, or edits.

Almost 3 times as fast as my OCZ/Samsung SSDs.

http://www.thessdreview.com/our-reviews ... sata-ssds/


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## dpasdernick (Dec 10, 2014)

I love East West. Great products - cool dudes - great prices...

and kudos to Jay for being their punching bag at times... that takes guts.


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## Pingu (Dec 10, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> KEnK @ Wed Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > if you move your library to another drive with every single instrument from that library that loads in your template you have to redirect it and then re-save it, unlike Play where you simple guide it to the new location or the EXS24 which once you redirect one instrument finds them all.



Jay, this bit isn't strictly true. If Kontakt instruments are saved with relative file paths, then there's no issue at all with moving them. Simply move the entire folder containing everything and, so long as the instruments and samples stay at the same level relative to each other, the instruments will simply continue to work. 

If they've been saved with absolute paths, then the instruments will stop working, but you can simply perform a batch resave. Point Kontakt at the top level of a folder containing a library, choose the batch resave option; it'll let you know when it finds some missing samples, you point it at the folder containing the samples, then Kontakt finds everything, resaves all the patches at once, and everything's fine again.

I don't know Play - perhaps it's even easier - but your description of Kontakt makes it sound a little clumsier than it really is.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 10, 2014)

Pingu @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > KEnK @ Wed Dec 10 said:
> ...



I will check that out, but even what you just described is less than ideal, no?


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## HardyP (Dec 10, 2014)

Valérie_D @ 2014-12-10 said:


> This is what I find a bit tricky :
> On my mac pro, (8cores, 32gigs ram) I have SATA port too, excuses my complete ignorance of SSD drives here but, is there an ssd compatible with sata?
> The fact that play works better on pc, even though my mac is overeall a great computer, is what bugs me a little.


Even if that may be true - before building a new PC, I would again recommend to try it out maybe with a silver or gold version… since you have a good amount of RAM, you should easily be able to run a nice couple of patches at once.
Ok, the loading times are not very convenient without SSD; but be assured, even with SATA2 a SSD helps a lot! I had used them in my oldish MBP from 2009, and it was a big step forward.


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## Lawson. (Dec 10, 2014)

I have multiple EW libraries, and I've never had a problem with them. Hollywood Strings/Brass are the best libraries of their kind on the market.


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## Pingu (Dec 10, 2014)

On the original topic, my experience with East West are a long, long time ago, but determined the fact that I haven't dealt with them since. 

I got the Giga version of VOTA, and the Kontakt versions of EWQLSC and RA. All of them contained some serious bugs - for instance the Alto range of QLSC was seriously truncated. At first EW wouldn't acknowledge the issues - people who suggested there were some got thrown off the forum, no matter how politely they did it. Eventually there were promises that issues would be fixed, but this never materialised. Instead EW moved to their own platform, and the promise became one that the Play version would solve the issues. Which basically meant they were telling us we could pay again, and we'd have a working product.

I even considered moving to Play, but initial reports were that it was a massive resource hog, and was very, very unstable, so I decided to wait. And I've just never found the right time to dip my toe back in the water.

I don't find them the most evil people in the world, nor even the least warm and fuzzy. But if they were producing a physical product they would have been out of business a long time ago, since law would obligate them to take back faulty products. The whole 'move on and keep charging people till the product works' approach only works because of the peculiarities / vagueness of software laws.

Having said that, the raw samples invariably sound awesome, and after 14 years I would still be considering the Complete Composer Bundle if I saw a post that said all of PLAY's issues of 'playing nice' with VEPro and Kontakt were sorted.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 10, 2014)

Pingu @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> Having said that, the raw samples invariably sound awesome, and after 14 years I would still be considering the Complete Composer Bundle if I saw a post that said all of PLAY's issues of 'playing nice' with VEPro and Kontakt were sorted.



They are IF:
You do not load Kontakt v-frmaes before the Play v-frames with the Kontakt memory server on.

Oh, and BTW, the latest version of Kontakt just crashed a Logic Pro X project here


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## Rv5 (Dec 10, 2014)

josejherring @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> What problems are you having? What PC did you get? A lot of problems can be resolved.



Hi Jose, bit strapped for time at the mo to go over them, they were plentiful. My post history will point to lists of them, others have echoed some here. The PC resolved some of them, but not all. Yes, some problems were indeed resolved, however the persistent need to resolve problems being the biggest of them all.

Custome library expensive yes. Kontakt recommended for commercial libraries.


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## Rv5 (Dec 10, 2014)

Pingu @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> ...if they were producing a physical product they would have been out of business a long time ago, since law would obligate them to take back faulty products. The whole 'move on and keep charging people till the product works' approach only works because of the peculiarities / vagueness of software laws.



Agree a lot with this!


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## José Herring (Dec 10, 2014)

Rv5 @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> josejherring @ Wed Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > What problems are you having? What PC did you get? A lot of problems can be resolved.
> ...



I'll check your history see if I can be of some assistance. Shame that you're not using it. They are some good libraries when you can get them to work.


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## Rv5 (Dec 10, 2014)

Thank you for the offer of help! Yes they're incredible sounding libraries ! But the 'if you can get them to work' and the journey it took me down unfortunately left a bitter taste, and now settled with other things.


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## Pingu (Dec 10, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> Pingu @ Wed Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Having said that, the raw samples invariably sound awesome, and after 14 years I would still be considering the Complete Composer Bundle if I saw a post that said all of PLAY's issues of 'playing nice' with VEPro and Kontakt were sorted.
> ...



Thanks Jay - I may just have to give in and try it. And I didn't mean to imply that Play was the culprit in the whole mess. I'm well aware that Kontakt doesn't like playing nice with lots of things - but, for me, Kontakt got there first, and the bulk of my library revolves around it.


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## José Herring (Dec 10, 2014)

Rv5 @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> Thank you for the offer of help! Yes they're incredible sounding libraries ! But the 'if you can get them to work' and the journey it took me down unfortunately left a bitter taste, and now settled with other things.



I've only seen a few of your post, but it seems like you're having trouble with the powerful system patches and the bow change legato patches.


Just a side note, the powerful system patches are the worst patches in HS. I avoid them like the plague. I've had better luck with the stacc, slur Lt 6 patches and the marc sus patches. Or just standard sus patches.

Also, I've started to build my own patches with HS.

But I could be way off as I haven't looked at all your post yet.

But, just spending a day a going through all the patches and finding the ones that work, was time well spent for me.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 10, 2014)

josejherring @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> Rv5 @ Wed Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you for the offer of help! Yes they're incredible sounding libraries ! But the 'if you can get them to work' and the journey it took me down unfortunately left a bitter taste, and now settled with other things.
> ...



Totally disagree, I love the powerful system patches, although not the bow change ones.

But thumbs up to the idea of going through the patches and finding the ones that work for you.


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## José Herring (Dec 10, 2014)

Don't you find that the powerful system patches are too unpredictable? With the look ahead programming and variable legato samples, it puts every note in a different place. I just found them a bear to work with in real life. Would love to find out how/if you overcame these obstacles. I just finally had to shelve the patches. Though the cello ones are very nice for sure.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 10, 2014)

josejherring @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> Don't you find that the powerful system patches are too unpredictable? With the look ahead programming and variable legato samples, it puts every note in a different place. I just found them a bear to work with in real life. Would love to find out how/if you overcame these obstacles. I just finally had to shelve the patches. Though the cello ones are very nice for sure.



I just play and edit until I get a performance I am happy with.


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## José Herring (Dec 10, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> josejherring @ Wed Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Don't you find that the powerful system patches are too unpredictable? With the look ahead programming and variable legato samples, it puts every note in a different place. I just found them a bear to work with in real life. Would love to find out how/if you overcame these obstacles. I just finally had to shelve the patches. Though the cello ones are very nice for sure.
> ...



That's the difference between you and me. I just want to play and get it over with :D


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## milesito (Dec 10, 2014)

Pingu @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > KEnK @ Wed Dec 10 said:
> ...



I just did this 2 days ago. it is easier/smarter/faster on Play 4. I did move my kontakt folder, and I needed to re activate each of my libraries etc... etc...it wasn't difficult for kontakt however. It just took 3 times as long (or maybe more)...but it was not complicated.


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## chibear (Dec 10, 2014)

> I just listened to their demos and I thought they sounded just fine,



The best judge has just spoken  If you want to delve into it further have a listen to the postings on the Music Cafe in their forums. 

Aside from a few small bugs I have found Play rock solid, both bridging the 64 bit version into my old 32 bit DAW via jBridge and now directly into my 64 bit DAW. I cannot say the same for Kontakt on either account.

It is true that I seem to be drifting away from EWQL in certain areas, but that is more a reflection of my personal taste and workflow rather than a commentary on the quality of their libraries.


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## kitekrazy (Dec 10, 2014)

They seem to work hard at trying to get more people to use their libraries. I have HOS Brass, Strings, WW, Gold Choir all for less than $500. While I'm a big fan of Kontakt, the EW bargains are really great for someone without Kontakt and wanting quality orchestra sounds. 
My only aggravation is there is no HO Percussion Silver. It's my missing piece. 

Right now is a great time to get EW libraries. There's BOGO and $100 off, 70% off bundles.

Sure there's a lot of criticism on this forum but other forums I participate it's mostly positive.


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## WorshipMaestro (Dec 10, 2014)

Valérie_D @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> Thanks everyone! I have a mac pro 8core with 32 gigs of ram, I would be glad to run Eastwest Libraries in Kontakt.
> 
> Anyone knows how?



The EastWest Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra Library ran in Kontakt before they moved to their own Play engine. I'm pretty sure that library is not longer available for sale.

As far as EW libraries in general I used SO for many years and was always pleased with the results. I've moved away from it though for one particular reason that I'm surprised hasn't yet been mentioned in this thread:

*iLok!*

I have very similar systems between work and my home studio and it is very common for me to bring work home. What a pain to have to remember to bring that darned dongle whenever I move between systems. With Kontakt I don't have that issue.

I think Vienna Ensemble came up with a brilliant idea when they offered 3 licenses with the purchase of each VEP. Sure you have to purchase additional elicensors, but I can leave them plugged in to all the computers, both masters and slave, that I use and never have a "dang it" moment when I've moved to a different system. This is one of the things that discourages me from using EW stuff unless I just can't get it elsewhere. It was an important factor in my recent purchase of several Cinesamples libraries. It is also a big reason I avoid Pro Tools unless absolutely necessary.

(And this thread reminds me it's time to change my signature!)


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## Matt Hawken (Dec 10, 2014)

I'm not ashamed to say that I own nearly 100% East West libraries because they're cheap and I'm broke. But they're world-class samples and will do anything I ask them to. East West have allowed me to indulge my greatest passion, music-making, while saving for my family and paying my mortgage. And for that, I'm indebted to them.

Jay is also very personable as the human face of East West. He once took the time to reach out to me personally and it made my month!

Everyone should own EWQLSO - I use it on every track I do somehow. It's just nice to know that I've always got a waterphone, or some bowed crotales or crazy string ambiences to hand. I'm actually working on a fun side project at the moment that is almost entirely built in EWQLSO Gold - I'll post it in the Member's Compositions area once it's done.

[Note: I have not received free East West products. But I would very much like to. How does one get on that particular train? Butter Jay up even more?  ]


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## markwind (Dec 11, 2014)

I'm a big fan of EW.. I've been adding HS Diamond and HB Diamond to my libraries.. and I couldn't be more happier about them.

The programming is superb, as are the samples. 

4th generation I7 here btw, with 32GB of Crucial memory - which might be upgraded to 64 within a few months


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## StatKsn (Dec 11, 2014)

josejherring @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> Don't you find that the powerful system patches are too unpredictable? With the look ahead programming and variable legato samples, it puts every note in a different place. I just found them a bear to work with in real life. Would love to find out how/if you overcame these obstacles. I just finally had to shelve the patches. Though the cello ones are very nice for sure.



I too often get some troubles with legato (both "powerful" and LT ones) patches in HS - unpredictable results when I freeze/render the track. Just for a tip, make sure that your DAW notifies to Play that it is in rendering mode. Some DAWs don't by default.


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## Jackles (Dec 11, 2014)

I own a lot of EW products, and I'm very happy with it. I guess I started to use PLAY after the storm, because I never had any problem with it (au contraire).

I should add that I'm a PC user. It must be one of the main reason people are complaining about PLAY (after all, they are asking for better specs for MAC).
I'm using SSD for a couple a months. I think it's the most important thing if you want to take full advantage of the Hollywood Series libraries (and RAM if you want to load it all..).

One thing I would have "against" EW though, is their communication method about already released products, especially on their own forum.

Here's a very good (up to date) exemple :
http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... hp?t=49781

It's not doing justice to the quality of their products.


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## R.Cato (Dec 11, 2014)

Jackles @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> Here's a very good (up to date) exemple :
> http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... hp?t=49781
> 
> It's not doing justice to the quality of their products.



Sorry Jackles, maybe it's because I am German, but I can't find anything wrong within the thread you just posted. admin just wrote a simple no, answering a simple yes/no question by a customer. What's wrong with that?


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## SDCP (Dec 11, 2014)

R.Cato @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> Jackles @ Thu Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a very good (up to date) exemple :
> ...



Yes, it is because you are German. To a German, this is efficient and logical (I work with a lot of Germans). To an American, we need more information. We would expect the answer to include WHY the feature is not included. Something like "Yeas, we thought about including it, but then decided that the price could be reduced if we left that feature out." Or something like that. Alles klar?


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 11, 2014)

Not ALL Americans. When the answer is "no", I am OK with a simple "no."


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## alextone (Dec 11, 2014)

Play/EW, like Kontakt, has no native linux version, so i can't add anything to the OP's quest for perspective. However Kontakt, up until version 5.3.1, would work in Wine/Linux. Play is inhibited with iLok as far as i know, so until this changes, any discussion or perspective is limited to Win and Mac users.

Alex.


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## Vlzmusic (Dec 11, 2014)

SDCP @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> R.Cato @ Thu Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Jackles @ Thu Dec 11 said:
> ...



Well, as an Ukranian/Jew with Soviet upbringing, I`d rather not to ask at all, and figure out the answer myself.


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## Michael K. Bain (Dec 11, 2014)

SDCP @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> R.Cato @ Thu Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Jackles @ Thu Dec 11 said:
> ...


I agree with you. When someone asks a question like that about a product, the word "no"without any explanation makes it seem like the company rep didn't really want to be involved, that he said as little as possible in order to fulfill obligation.

The impression it gives is "The feature doesn't exist, and I don't really care that you want it".

And this is coming from someone who's never had a problem with EW support.

I do wish they'd let me sell my libraries that I no longer use, but they're not alone when they don't allow that.


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## R.Cato (Dec 11, 2014)

Many sample devs don't even care about answering such a question *and* telling people why they did not include feature xyz and no one bats an eye, East West replies with a simple no answering the question of a customer and everyone loses their minds... 

I love the internet. 0oD


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## Vovique (Dec 11, 2014)

I own the entire Silver line (EWQLSO, HS, HW, HB), Silk and Stormdrums 1-2. I love them all. Never had any problems with Play on Mac. The only recent minor inconvenience from East West side is the Authorisation app - hasn't been working for me this year, but a support mail always solved that in a day or two. And small quirks like that are completely overshadowed by the excellent, highest quality value you get for so little money. So RA, Gypsy, Spaces, SD3 are all planned for the future.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 11, 2014)

R.Cato @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> Many sample devs don't even care about answering such a question *and* telling people why they did not include feature xyz and no one bats an eye, East West replies with a simple no answering the question of a customer and everyone loses their minds...
> 
> I love the internet. 0oD




:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Jackles (Dec 11, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> Not ALL Americans. When the answer is "no", I am OK with a simple "no."



That's my point ! You are working for EW aren't you  ?

As a customer that purchased libraries of real existing instruments, if I take the time to create a thread to ask a question about a key feature missing from that library, I do expect a little bit more than a simple no. 
And I'm french, the most blunt people world wide...

I don't have anything against short answers, but in that particular case, it obviously deserved a little bit more. And in another context, you might think that too.

I dare anyone to ask why the harp is missing from the Hollywood Orchestra bundle. You'll see what I'm talking about


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## Michael K. Bain (Dec 11, 2014)

R.Cato @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> Many sample devs don't even care about answering such a question *and* telling people why they did not include feature xyz and no one bats an eye, East West replies with a simple no answering the question of a customer and everyone loses their minds...
> 
> I love the internet. 0oD



When I worked customer service, I took pride in my work and provided the customer every help I could. In fact, I went above and beyond what the customer asked for. It was my way of showing them that my company was committed to its clients.

Are companies always able to give customers everything they want? Of course not, but all requests and issues should be treated with respect and concern.


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## creativeforge (Dec 11, 2014)

As a musician, and graphic designer, I value explanations (even minimal), as they often contain clues that could help me continue finding solutions. Nothing worst than spending hours trying to get something working in the midst of a project, suspending work to find a solution, and getting replies that are short (in my opinion, "no" isn't a customer support answer to give, really) and don't include directions, suggestions, links, etc. 

Best way to turn someone away is to leave them out in the cold. That "no" reply was ridiculous. Even after shooting from the hip like this, at least the agent should have come back and discuss with the clients interested, showing it was a slip of ethics. Obviously the client is in real need of the feature, and wanted to see if there would be something coming. Otherwise, he is effectively forcing the client to look for a solution OUTSIDE of EW. Not very good either...

I understand that many working in support have to type miles of responses every day, so maybe they could gather a bunch of preset answers for situations requiring further development? 

EW were my first librairies (Composer's Complete Collection HD), which I purchased after months of A/B'ing what was out there in 2010. Since then the market has literally exploded with magnificent offerings. The big shock came when I realize that I could never sell the libraries to someone else. Now that I know more what I need, and considering what else there is out there, I would not jump for a such a huge bundle. 

But I enjoy the quality of most of the instruments I've used, very realistic and so many variations, I will never mine the depth of this bundle... Many use EW for bread and butter work and are doing very well. 

My .02!

Regards, and peace to all,

Andre


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 11, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> R.Cato @ Thu Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Many sample devs don't even care about answering such a question *and* telling people why they did not include feature xyz and no one bats an eye, East West replies with a simple no answering the question of a customer and everyone loses their minds...
> ...



As do I. In fact, several people here will tell you that they answered their phone and to their surprise it was me calling to help them

But Admin on the forum is a "floating position" and sometimes it is people who are really busy. Doug asked me if I wanted to take it on, and I demurred 

In this case my guess is that whoever Admin was in this instance, he wanted to answer but did not have time for a more detailed explanation. So it is not necessarily disrespect, just time.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 11, 2014)

josejherring @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> Not long after that Nick P. was arguing with me over something on the off topic section of the forum. He was abrasive, passionate, it didn't bother me one bit, but I guess others hate that somebody else has an opinion. He's since stopped participating in forum chatter which is a shame really.
> 
> Then I had a hard time with my first Play library, and that's when things got a little ugly. But, again, for some reason it didn't bother me.
> 
> ...



First of all, Nick is not totally gone- he pops up every once in a while to defend a product in an abrasive, passionate way. :wink: Personally I prefer non abrasive exchanges as I like my lovely skin to remain smooth and soft sans abrasions. I moisturize a lot.

I go way back with EW products, to Kontakt and Kompact days. Those libraries worked fine, but when Play came out, the first iteration that worked was, I believe, 1.2.5. Before that, Play was literally a nightmare. That was the time frame during which many people got cheesed off at EW, because they insisted "it works fine here." and would never just own up to the fact that it didn't work for a LOT of people. Also the minimum system specs were simply wrong. No one could run their stuff on anything close. EWQLSC was a nightmare for a LONG time- using it in realtime was virtually impossible. Yet, back at EW, there was a culture of always blaming the end user and never admitting the product could be flawed or far more demanding than the system specs suggested- especially on Mac. Add the silly forum banning stuff-the genesis of people's unhappiness with the company is not hard to find.

All that said, I own at least a dozen EW products and happily use them without much trouble. Play has improved greatly, though it's still curious that it hasn't become more full featured. The quality of the sampling is and has always been exceptional. Jay has helped smooth the customer interface, and the prices are so reasonable that competition has had to keep pace, a win-win for the industry. To the OP, I think there's great value in EW's line. The Silver and Gold products DO work on Mac, but SSDs and VEP are vital and a slave is highly recommended. I'm running an early 2008 Mac Pro and a 4 core Mini slave with two SSDs, just FYI. Cheers.


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## José Herring (Dec 11, 2014)

The EW forum is an abysmal place that I haven't visited in years. Imo, they should just take it down. It's obvious that they don't care to really maintain it properly and are heavy handed in the moderation.

On the other hand, the chances that I've had to speak to their customer support over the phone the ladies and gents, usually a lady, have been patient and kind and a joy to converse with. 

So I suspect many people complaining about "customer service" are really talking about, being disrespected on the forum.

I too had a nightmare with EWQLSC early on when working at a friend's studio. It was obvious that the Kontakt version didn't play nice with Protools at the time. The word builder thingy just didn't work properly. But, the customer service person hung in there with me for 2 hours trying many things to sort it out before we totally gave up. And, she stayed patiently with me long after my friend became irate and started cursing at her. 

It's not an easy job dealing with thousands of pissed off barely sane musicians


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## NYC Composer (Dec 11, 2014)

So your friend became abrasive and passionate? :wink:


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## JC_ (Dec 11, 2014)

I've been using EWQL products for a long time and I've always had great respect for their sounds and company. There are a lot of diva/dick customers out there so I can't really blame them for taking a tougher approach with those people. On the other hand, that thread linked above is pretty comical and I would expect to see a bit more explanation to go with the simple "No".

Anyways, I use a PC and haven't really ever had problems with Play. A pc slave is probably worth the investment, if you don't have one already. If I had no libraries and was starting over from scratch, I would get HS and HB without a second thought.


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## Stephen Rees (Dec 11, 2014)

Ah. How I miss the days of Komplete Klarity Koncerning the Klearly Konfusing Kompakt, Intakt and Kontakt Klassifikation.


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## José Herring (Dec 11, 2014)

Ha! Yeah for some unknown reason he hated Nick and Doug with a "passion" that was incomprehensible to me. Jeez, it's not like you're married to them, who cares what they're like personally.

Yet his personal feelings didn't stop him from dropping close to 20 grand on EW products. Go figure.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 11, 2014)

Jay wrote:



> I will be the first to admit that Doug and Nick are not warm and fuzzy



However, they're not at all the same person!

And I have to say that some of EastWest's instruments are the best in the history of the world. Is there a better marimba than the one in EWQLSO, or a better classical guitar than the one in Gypsy, for example?


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## creativeforge (Dec 11, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> In this case my guess is that whoever Admin was in this instance, he wanted to answer but did not have time for a more detailed explanation. So it is not necessarily disrespect, just time.



For sure, that's what makes the most sense. However, he should have said so, in my opinion, then he probably would have been asked for suggestions, links, etc. and maybe he just didn't want to be bothered. There's so much we can say, we don't know what was happening to him at the time. Only speculations... 

It still remains a good example of what not to do, and it can help measure how it affects users who actually sustain your products. So I'd be careful to not just shrug it off, but even more, maybe you, or someone else with a similar record of reaching out, could visit the thread and make sure there is more content brought to the client to help him. There's always room for second and third and fourth and fifth chances... 

Regards,

Andre


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## Stephen Rees (Dec 11, 2014)

I still think EWQLSO is one of the best sounding libraries there is.


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## creativeforge (Dec 11, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> I still think EWQLSO is one of the best sounding libraries there is.



Very solid! That's not in dispute... (y) I hope they feel the love here, something we all need... o/~ o/~ o/~


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## Michael K. Bain (Dec 11, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> As do I. In fact, several people here will tell you that they answered their phone and to their surprise it was me calling to help them



I have no doubt that you're good at customer service. But I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about that one word negative response by someone else.



EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> But Admin on the forum is a "floating position" and sometimes it is people who are really busy. Doug asked me if I wanted to take it on, and I demurred
> 
> In this case my guess is that whoever Admin was in this instance, he wanted to answer but did not have time for a more detailed explanation. So it is not necessarily disrespect, just time.



There's always a little bit of time for something like that. He didn't have to write a novel as a response, but he could have and should have written more than just "no".

So while he may not have intended it as "disrespect", it sure comes off that way to customers. And that can't be good for your company.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 11, 2014)

If it was one of the higher ups, and I suspect it was, that is just who they are and I doubt that will change. 

But either way, people who are looking for a slight will always find one.


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## rayinstirling (Dec 11, 2014)

Where would music be without "bleeding hearts?" o/~ :lol:


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## germancomponist (Dec 11, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> I still think EWQLSO is one of the best sounding libraries there is.



+1

I use it very very often also nowadays... .


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## dcoscina (Dec 11, 2014)

I like and use all of the Hollywood series and even some EWQLSO too. They have terrific deals and their support staff in my experience are terrific.


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## creativeforge (Dec 11, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> If it was one of the higher ups, and I suspect it was, that is just who they are and I doubt that will change.
> 
> But either way, people who are looking for a slight will always find one.



Hmmmm... you were doing fine until you said this... turning the shame card won't work in your favor. This wasn't "looking for a slight" - for validation, maybe?

The users on that thread were actually very polite and didn't say anything disparaging. They are genuinely engaged in the need to find solutions for products they use and love. 

Anyways, it's now going in circles, but just hoping something was said that brought some positive feedback... Being the "higher ups" (if that's the case) would be an excuse and not a good reason for dropping the conversation. Like I said, anyone from EW can take this thread over and smooth things up. 

Back to work!


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## Michael K. Bain (Dec 11, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> If it was one of the higher ups, and I suspect it was, that is just who they are and I doubt that will change.



And that doesn't exactly improve perceptions of the company's reputation.



EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> But either way, people who are looking for a slight will always find one.


It's not "looking for a slight" to expect something more than one word answers from customer service reps.


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## givemenoughrope (Dec 11, 2014)

I wouldn't bother with anything from EW except their percussion (SD2 and 3, SO Perc, Hollywood Perc sounds good) and possibly Spaces. Maybe HB if you need 'Epic' brass (barf...)

Their sounds have a good reputation bc they sound great. Their company has a bad rep bc they are jerks (not including ew lurker of course) Their software had a bad rep bc it didn't work although it seems stable enough now. I'd opt for a Kontakt library if I were on the fence. Plenty of options out there now and developers who actually try to deliver on their promises.


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## José Herring (Dec 11, 2014)

Entitled to your opinion of course, but one slight correction. HB is orchestral brass rather than "epic" which is an over used term devoid of any meaning these days. If by "epic" you mean big sounding, then yes, HB can deliver that, but mostly it delivers a pretty convincing American orchestral sound. But, I've even pressed the low bones into a pretty convincing big band sound as well.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 11, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > If it was one of the higher ups, and I suspect it was, that is just who they are and I doubt that will change.
> ...



Not directed at anyone, just a general observation.


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## givemenoughrope (Dec 11, 2014)

I don't own it. Only going by demos so... That is a big distinction though, you're right. 

Both HB and HS sound great and nail what they're going for to my ears (again don't own either) but I'm just into a smaller sound. There's a brass quintet that practices around the corner from me every Saturday...I always hear them when i'm hiking around. Hard to shake the sound of the real thing in a room, warts and all.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 11, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > If it was one of the higher ups, and I suspect it was, that is just who they are and I doubt that will change.
> ...



I agree. If Jay had stopped at "I doubt that will change" i would have agreed with him too-some things won't and there 's little point in wishing they would.

Terse responses may not be disrespectful, but they're certainly questionable from a perceptual standpoint. People don't necessarily have to be looking for a slight, but they can end up experiencing one anyway.


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 11, 2014)

One thing to be very aware of before you buy East West products is that they have what I call 'Zero Resale Value' 
Unless their policy has recently changed you can spend thousands on their products to find that you don't actually own them, and are forbidden to sell them second hand later, and find out that you have spent all that money just to buy a non transferable licence!

Everybody needs to be aware of this fact!!!!


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## NYC Composer (Dec 11, 2014)

guitarman1960 @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> One thing to be very aware of before you buy East West products is that they have what I call 'Zero Resale Value'
> Unless their policy has recently changed you can spend thousands on their products to find that you don't actually own them, and are forbidden to sell them second hand later, and find out that you have spent all that money just to buy a non transferable licence!
> 
> Everybody needs to be aware of this fact!!!!



... which is the policy for almost all music software. Anyone who doesn't know that, should.


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## José Herring (Dec 11, 2014)

givemenoughrope @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> I don't own it. Only going by demos so... That is a big distinction though, you're right.
> 
> Both HB and HS sound great and nail what they're going for to my ears (again don't own either) but I'm just into a smaller sound. There's a brass quintet that practices around the corner from me every Saturday...I always hear them when i'm hiking around. Hard to shake the sound of the real thing in a room, warts and all.



HB not so great on the brass quintet sound. I tried to get it once with little desirable effect.

Funny when CB came out, I asked the same question. Can it do brass quintet? The answer I got was, that's easy, will have a demo up soon. That was 2 years ago I think. Nothing but crickets. :lol: 

Sable brass. Looks like that might be the way to go for subtler stuff.

HB and HS demos sound that way because of the composers they hired to do the demos. Almost all of trailerish library composers, which I haven't any problem with, but limits the perception of the libraries. I've been able to get a lot more than that limited sound set from both libraries. HS can do soft and quiet really, really well. HB can't do soft and quite, but is very dynamic, just doesn't have a good really soft layer. Except the horns, which I think are the best around soft to loud.

Anyway back on topic. Yeah! Down with EW customer service. When Nick, Doug and I turn in for the night I always say they sound be a little nicer. Show their more feminine side :lol:


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 11, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Thu Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > One thing to be very aware of before you buy East West products is that they have what I call 'Zero Resale Value'
> ...



You only have to look at the Classified Ads on this forum to see that isn't true and that many other developers allow resale and transfer of licences!


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## givemenoughrope (Dec 11, 2014)

Let's be straight:

When you buy from many other (smaller) developers you are really entering into a relationship. You are both ironing out bugs to a degree and figuring out workflows, improvements. You want to use the stuff to make music/make money/etc. and they want to have a great product/make money. I sat down with AK/LASSBro at NAMM and he showed me some great things about his library and how he works. It helped a great deal. He also has a forum kinda like this one. 

When EW released something and there were issues they always made it seem like it was the fault of the user. I'm not into that. Neither are most other people. I still use their sounds even though both of those guys personally insulted me when I asked about some PLAY issues. 

So whatever...They made their own rep. Good and bad.


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## José Herring (Dec 11, 2014)

They're a lot different in person. When they did go to NAMM. Nick spent a lot of time showing me different products and how they worked and answered all of my questions. Doug, though a little more distant was really friendly as well.

So that always left an impression on me I guess. I've met them personally and never once were either of them disrespectful.

Though I've gotten slammed around on the forums over the years by both of them, I've also done my fair share of slamming especially when I got my first Play product.

Ak is just one of a kind, smart, funny all around good guy. If I was a girl, I'd marry him.


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## givemenoughrope (Dec 11, 2014)

Yea, AK is a bit of a genius I think. He taught me more in two minutes with LASS 1 and Nuendo...all while the din of NAMM raged on. 

NP told me to s**k a donkey's c**k on this very forum. Well, I was already dealing with PLAY, so.... Probably not entirely different.


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## wst3 (Dec 11, 2014)

what a thread!

But actually, it helped me articulate my thought better I think...

EW libraries sound great.
Play is better than it was, but still a variable
And the company itself is not quite as customer friendly as others.

The first point should matter to everyone. The second and third points might matter, they might not, and that's probably where the decision making process really hinges.

For me, I am comfortable with Kontakt, and within my budget I can find libraries that will do the things I want to do. 

So FOR ME, the sound quality is not so much better than the competition to make it worth adding a variable. You may feel differently.

As for the company, I've purchased libraries from several developers. Some are more warm and fuzzy than others. My interactions with Jay are always a pleasure, so I would not let the corporate personality sway me. Again, you may feel differently.

One person's logic... nothing more.


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## givemenoughrope (Dec 11, 2014)

josejherring @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> Sable brass. Looks like that might be the way to go for subtler stuff.



I'm thinking that. 

And maybe I'll get those geezers around the corner into a chapel and see what works.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 11, 2014)

josejherring @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> Ak is just one of a kind, smart, funny all around good guy. If I was a girl, I'd marry him.


But . . . but . . . I thought _I _was the one you'd marry if you were a girl. My dreams . . . shattered.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 11, 2014)

Rick Nelson : "but it's all right now, I learned my lesson well, you see you can't please everyone so you've got to please yourself."


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 11, 2014)

Here's one of several reviews I did on HS.
http://www.professionalorchestration.co ... ld-part-1/

What has not been said here is that HS is a genuine professional orchestration library in that it not only gives you the bowings needed for you to be a virtual concertmaster for your work, but it also has alternates so that you're not trying to make one size fit all. 

This is a very powerful library. The design concept behind it is that all the audio effects were done ahead of time for you. All you have to do is add reverb. If you want to EQ and so on, up to you. But it's designed so you don't have to.


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## Michael K. Bain (Dec 11, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> Rick Nelson : "but it's all right now, I learned my lesson well, you see you can't please everyone so you've got to please yourself."



Mahatma Ghandi:
“A customer is the most important visitor on our premises. He is not dependent on us. We are dependent on him. He is not an interruption in our work. He is the purpose of it. He is not an outsider in our business. He is part of it. We are not doing him a favor by serving him. He is doing us a favor by giving us an opportunity to do so.”


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 11, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Rick Nelson : "but it's all right now, I learned my lesson well, you see you can't please everyone so you've got to please yourself."
> ...



Rick sold a LOT more records than Gandhi and take a look at a picture of both of them: who would YOU buy a used car from? 

And joking side, this is the one from the immortal Bard I try to, and admittedly sometimes fail to, live by:
_
This above all: to thine ownself be true, And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man._


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 11, 2014)

Also, let me acknowledge how impressed I am by the overall tone of this thread, whatever preferences are stated. This is very different from a couple of years ago and makes me feel a lot better about this forum than I was feeling some time ago.


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## Valérie_D (Dec 11, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> Also, let me acknowledge how impressed I am by the overall tone of this thread, whatever preferences are stated. This is very different from a couple of years ago and makes me feel a lot better about this forum than I was feeling some time ago.



Wow..even though I said 3 words in the whole thread, I'm glad I started it, and yes, passionate and enthusiastic discussions are most welcome, this is great :D


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## José Herring (Dec 11, 2014)

Mike Greene @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> josejherring @ Thu Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Ak is just one of a kind, smart, funny all around good guy. If I was a girl, I'd marry him.
> ...



It's a toss up really. I can be swayed either way, errrrr....if I was girl that is.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 11, 2014)

You are really saying 'warm and fuzzy'? I learn something new about your language every day


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## José Herring (Dec 11, 2014)

Like a kitten or a gerbil, "warm and fuzzy" As a matter of fact, when I think furry kittens, I immediately think of Nick P.


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## JohnG (Dec 11, 2014)

Mike Greene @ 11th December 2014 said:


> josejherring @ Thu Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Ak is just one of a kind, smart, funny all around good guy. If I was a girl, I'd marry him.
> ...



I think what Mike is trying to say is the "woman trapped in a man's body" thing.

Unless I miss my guess.


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## Diffusor (Dec 11, 2014)

EastWest and Play have a well heralded infamy for often very good reasons.

1) PLAY has historically been awful in performance and stability and EW is slow to fix those problems. I tried to use PLAY for several years and bought several libs including Hollywood Strings. I gave up and just got sick of dealing with it. It's absolute fact, Kontakt performance blows PLAY out of the water. No contest. I haven't tried any recent updates but maybe they have closed that gap, but I could care less anymore. With Kontakt I can load up Berlin Strings, all five strings section adaptive legatos with all 6 mic perspectives and play them all simultaneously off one SSD on one i7 computer without a glitch. I was lucky if I could get one legato string patch with only one mic active to play back consistently glitch-free in PLAY HS.

2) EW would often play the blame game and user error thing if you mentioned problems, and would deny they exist. "Works perfect here." Lo and behold that problem you mentioned would be quietly fixed sometime later on.

3) PLAY is very limited with little customization possible. You pretty much have to work the way they want you to work and the particular way they set up the patches. PLAY pro has been vaporware for years now.

4) Overboard censorship on their official forums. Posts and members would be deleted and/or banned if you posted "critical" things on their forums.

5) If you buy their libraries right away upon release expect to pay a premium. But within a year or less they will start to be heavily discounted and bundled. I bought HS for about 1200 when released. I think I saw it for $300 awhile back.

6) iLok dongled library/software that can't be resold. I am sitting on about 3 grand worth of PLAY libs I don't use anymore (hardly even got to use them at all actually) but can't sell.

7) The drama and inner turmoil of Nick and Doug suing each other didn't do them any wonders in the PR department and instill any confidence in the integrity and future of the company.

8) Last but not least. The infamous shilling episodes on their own forums and over at Gearslutz. They were busted three times in the space of about a week over at Gearslutz. And one of those busted got caught shilling at the Soundsonline forum too. Luckily I guess since they bought banners at Gearslutz EW didn't get a ban. From those events is when Jay Asher was nominated to be the public liaison.

These are some of the things I've seen people complain about EW over the years. They do however have some well-produced libraries sonic wise. But very much not worth the hassle from my experience though.


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## Michael K. Bain (Dec 11, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> Rick sold a LOT more records than Gandhi and take a look at a picture of both of them: who would YOU buy a used car from?


Rick may have sold more records, but did Elvis ever shoot a TV screen when Ghandi was on TV?


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## kitekrazy (Dec 11, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> Michael K. Bain @ Thu Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 11 said:
> ...



I got a great laugh out of that one.


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## creativeforge (Dec 11, 2014)

I don't believe in antagonizing anyone, but such amazing prowess to not give in to say "We're really sorry, or we know we should be for the way we seem, to many, to deflect blame, for so many years, about so many issues. we're trying to learn from our mistakes and appreciate the frank and polite feedback." 

"We acknowledge that just because we put out great products doesn't mean we're perfect. Admittedly, on that particular thread (vibraphone motor), we missed it. we apologize for it and will swiftly engage the user to talk shop with him/her. Thank you for pointing it to us."

And suddenly the forum would be abuzz with the gracious response to an obvious misstep, which was strangely constantly minimized, until users started recounting their own stories, which didn't help EW one bit, au contraire. 

At this point, it is getting pretty juvenile, in my opinion, to continue throwing one liners stamped with shame, or deflecting again with clever jokes. I, for one, expect a bit more from a megaton company in the field. We're trying to help you guys out by giving feedback, and support our fellow users by pleading for them to get better copy than "no." After all, you guys wax very eloquent when you market your products...

And we're not talking about privileged rapport with Jay or Nick. I'm sure they can't be tight with every customer, and blessed are those who get that royal treatment, it's great. 

Gandhi wins - every time... 

As far as this thread goes: taking pulse -> check. I've learned a few helpful things too!

'Night all!

Andre


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## creativeforge (Dec 11, 2014)

Valerie, in the long run, I'd consider building on Kontakt rather than PLAY. I own 7 EW librairies and - other than the Piano Gold - they don't come out often. Without slamming any of the quality, I personally regret the investment. Even the Word Builder disappointed me greatly. 

I am not a professional composer, though, so my comment has more to do with being able to find unique and more affordable single libraries to build my own palette. Kontakt allows me much more choice and versatility. 

Have you checked Spitfire Audio: http://www.spitfireaudio.com/

8dio: http://8dio.com/

There are many outstanding developers today, and I like the diversity, certainly each has their own strength and weaknesses so take your time to listen to demos like you're doing.

BTW, I was listening to your work (very unique, French emotional vibe to it, love it!) and wanted to also point you to Simon Stockhausen's samples : http://www.patchpool.de/index.html

Voila! Bonne chance! 

Andre 
(I'm from your parts, but left Montreal in 1996)


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## JohnG (Dec 11, 2014)

Diffusor @ 11th December 2014 said:


> 1) PLAY has historically been awful in performance and stability and EW is slow to fix those problems.



My experience is completely different Diffusor. PLAY has worked fine for me on both Mac and PC. You state that PLAY has been "awful" as though it is some proven, general fact. You and others may have had problems and for that I am sorry, but it's worked great here and others on this thread have said the same thing.

I've had worse problems, in fact, with other well-known software than with PLAY. It's always worked out or I revert to the last working version until an update rolls out.


[note: I have received free products from East West]


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 11, 2014)

[quote="creativeforge @ Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm"
And we're not talking about privileged rapport with Jay or Nick. I'm sure they can't be tight with every customer, and blessed are those who get that royal treatment, it's great. 

[/quote]

There is no "privileged rapport with Jay" that leads to getting a "royal treatment " from me when it comes to doing my job. If people reach our to me with an issue, they can be sure I will do my best to get them the help they need.


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## PeterKorcek (Dec 11, 2014)

EW libraries were first I bought, and now I have nearly everything from them - usually bought their CCC bundles, Hollywood things gold first, but I liked them so much that I upgraded to Diamond. I like the overall sound (if youre using them together), in the beginning there were some issues with Play engine, but right now there is none (using 4.20v I think).

I had some technical issues as well - iLok licenses not showing up - fixed over the night after my email to the support, Play issues resolved, Jay has been helpful a lot when I tried to determine my workflow with Play, VEP5 and Logic. 

From what others said, I might have been just luckier, but overall I am happy with the sound, libraries, engine, etc. At the same time I believe some people here might have had frustrating experience with the engine, etc, but that happens with other companies as well I guess


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## creativeforge (Dec 11, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> [quote="creativeforge @ Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm"
> And we're not talking about privileged rapport with Jay or Nick. I'm sure they can't be tight with every customer, and blessed are those who get that royal treatment, it's great.



There is no "privileged rapport with Jay" that leads to getting a "royal treatment " from me when it comes to doing my job. If people reach our to me with an issue, they can be sure I will do my best to get them the help they need.[/quote]

Glad to know you're around...


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## NYC Composer (Dec 12, 2014)

Diffusor @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> EastWest and Play have a well heralded infamy for often very good reasons.
> 
> 1) PLAY has historically been awful in performance and stability and EW is slow to fix those problems. I tried to use PLAY for several years and bought several libs including Hollywood Strings. I gave up and just got sick of dealing with it. It's absolute fact, Kontakt performance blows PLAY out of the water. No contest. I haven't tried any recent updates but maybe they have closed that gap, but I could care less anymore. With Kontakt I can load up Berlin Strings, all five strings section adaptive legatos with all 6 mic perspectives and play them all simultaneously off one SSD on one i7 computer without a glitch. I was lucky if I could get one legato string patch with only one mic active to play back consistently glitch-free in PLAY HS.
> 
> ...



i agree with your points except #5, #6 and (un-numbered)#8- 

#5- so? You paid the price for what you wanted- was there an inherent guarantee of a fixed price for some period of time?

6. That's just the way most music software is, and you chose to buy the stuff, so?? Are you saying you didn't know the deal? 

8. I am no friend of Jay Asher, but your "inside disclosure" opinions don't need to appear here affecting anyone's liveliehood unlesss you have incontravertible proof that some sort of inside game went on, and even if so- who cares?? It's years after the fact-I guess you can grumble forever on a free and unfettered forum, but ultimately fewer and fewer people care.


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 12, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> 6. That's just the way most music software is, and you chose to buy the stuff, so?? Are you saying you didn't know the deal?



It is not up to the consumer to find out beforehand that the EULA forbids resale. It should be clearly stated before and at the point of purchase that this is the case.

Many many other music software manufacturers do allow resale and licence transfers as can be seen by looking at the classified ads on this forum.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 12, 2014)

guitarman1960 @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > 6. That's just the way most music software is, and you chose to buy the stuff, so?? Are you saying you didn't know the deal?
> ...



I have never looked at the classified sub forum, yet for almost 20 years I've understood the licenses for products I've bought.


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 12, 2014)

Regarding the issue of resale. In a 2012 ruling the European Court deemed that regardless of any EULA, when a consumer buys a software product they are legally entitled to resell the software.

I will be looking into this further!


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## G.R. Baumann (Dec 12, 2014)

guitarman1960 @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Regarding the issue of resale. In a 2012 ruling the European Court deemed that regardless of any EULA, when a consumer buys a software product they are legally entitled to resell the software.
> 
> I will be looking into this further!



If you search the forum, you find multiple threads. I had "the pleasure" to research this myself some time ago.

I can tell you that so far the Oracle ruling is not relevant per se for soundlibraries.

I too would prefer if I am allowed to resell data that I no longer use, hence I am thinking twice before I purchase from a manufacturer that excludes this right. It is a marriage with no divorce option.


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## StatKsn (Dec 12, 2014)

I think that dongled (iLok'd) products should be at least refundable, if not resalable, especially if it is a digital download product since you can easily "brick" the license... or does iLok charge a fee for that? Just IMHO.


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 12, 2014)

Thanks, I will look into the Oracle ruling further. I think it is worth pursuing this through the European Court.


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## Daryl (Dec 12, 2014)

guitarman1960 @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Regarding the issue of resale. In a 2012 ruling the European Court deemed that regardless of any EULA, when a consumer buys a software product they are legally entitled to resell the software.
> 
> I will be looking into this further!


As a sample library includes audio recordings, they are unaffected by this ruling. It would only take effect for instruments that are 100% modelled.

D


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## Beermaster (Dec 12, 2014)

the 'issues' I have with EWQL team are from partly a technical standpoint 'PLAY issues' but mainly from a moral, social and ethical direction. My story goes back a few decades and was not bad to begin with:

Back in the late 90's software samplers didn't really exist so media composers like myself relied on racks of hardware samplers with dedicated SCZI storage networks to transport samples into RAM on the machines - Sample library developers like Spectrasonics, EastWest. Quantum Leap were making libraries for these machines - Quantum Leap 'Brass' was a game changer back in 98 - still has some useful stuff, as was percussive Adventures 1 ! brilliant products and absolute go-to sound sets for a lot of my work at that time.

VSL brought out the first version of the Vienna Symphonic Library which was a GIGA format package that changed the game again and for a couple of years this was one of the only 'serious' products fro pro composers but within a short time the first incarnation of EWQLSO came out for Kontakt 1 - the mic positions thing was a brilliant idea and one I embraced - Set up two dedicated Carillon PC computers as Kontakt 1 and bought the library for £2,800 ($5,000 +) The sound was brilliant and SO stable it was unreal. The trouble started just under two weeks later. EW dropped the price of the library to just $1,000 meaning I'd paid more than £2,000 over the odds……..in under two weeks ! - I know there are many that would say that prices of items go up and down etc but the issue I had is that in buying a sample library the cost of the purchase is the license fee to have permission to use the sounds, it's not a physical cost of the discs. Take a look at most of the serious competition in the sample market out there, prices may drop a bit but an 80% drop makes those who bought the product at the full price feel like mugs. (thats why companies like Spectrasonics, VSL, Project SAM, keep the value of their products in a certain range and don't deviate that much over time - which in turn earns the respect of customers past and present and keeps 'value' to the products) 


I posted on their forum explaining my situation and what they could do for me as customer, Doug's reply was that all these guys that bought the library at the full price from the time of launch had made lots of money from using it on their projects so it didn't matter and it was time to lower the price . . . . . .. ? I explained that I'd only had the library for under two weeks . . . . was then told to stop causing trouble or I'd be banned ! ! ? They didn't bother to be nice, to see what a complete rip off this had been. They could have easily resolved this situation by offering a deal on other products or a couple of freebies . . . but no. It's one thing to feel like you've been screwed, it's quite another to have it rubbed in your face.

Eventually after complaining to the London based retailer through whom I purchased the library I was sent a couple of other products gratis which they took the hit on (agreeing that the price drop was strange)

From that moment on till present day EWQL have this strange attitude to customer loyalty. The people that pay the highest price for their libraries when they're released receive no rewards in return. The new products come out priced often in the thousands then a year of two later crash out to a quarter of that price - which is heralded as 'great for customers' . . . . . no, great for new customers, not great for those that paid the full price. It doesn't take much to think and care about the core customers who pay the high prices (and make it all possible) by giving them some rewards or deals… but no, that doesn't happen. It reeks of greed and disregard for people. ( compare this to VSL which before this time had a deal for people who wanted to step up and pay the full price for the symphonic CUBE which would then allow them to receive all future products for free. . .. thus making the early investment in the program a good reciprocal arrangement … money comes in, customers rewarded for their investment )

The next big issue was their decision to dump Kontakt and go it alone with their own playback sample engine. I think this had less to do with the limitations of what the Kontakt engine could offer but more to do with making more money on products by not having to pay NI for the license for Kontakt use. This is where things started to get buggy. The libraries sounded superb but the glitches, crashes and poor performances that dogged PLAY when used in conjunction of templates continued for many years and quite a few versions. (and for reference my two studios incorporated four different variants on the last mac pros from quad cores to 12 cores, SSDs, full RAMs etc and all work flat out with templates for day to day scoring work ) - So many times I've had to route out why the systems were having problems running and almost without fail, by cutting the PLAY instances or dropping out PLAY altogether the templates worked smoothly 

Putting it all together, the reasons I actively avoid EWQL: Customer Care, Business model, reliability. 

Shame, as the sounds are great.


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## TGV (Dec 12, 2014)

Daryl @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> As a sample library includes audio recordings, they are unaffected by this ruling. It would only take effect for instruments that are 100% modelled.


Not to be pedantic, but it is either
a) a sound recording, in which case you should be able to sell it as you can sell any cd, or
b) data, since there is no way to play the recordings outside the package in which you bought it; but since the software doesn't produce sound without the data, the data can be deemed essential to the working of the software, so that reselling seems in line with the judgement.

@guitarman1960:
IMO, it is however not worth pursuing. The costs of litigation are way higher than the potential second hand value of your sample libraries. While it may feel unfair that you can't resell a product, consider it one of the reasons why it's so cheap. Arguing for a refund within 14 days would be more reasonable, according to me.


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## jcrosby (Dec 12, 2014)

I have a ton of EW libraries.

The pros:

The sound is fantastic. Everything mixes without effort and very little processing is needed to wind up with a solid mix. Truly some of the nicest sounding libraries I've used.

The cons:

Play is incredibly less efficient on CPU than kontakt.
I can get about 1/3 as many instruments in a template before I start having performance issues comparatively. (Mind you I'm on a 12 core machine, so I have plenty of processing power and tons of RAM.) 

Load times are SLLLOOOOW. They have apparently gotten better over the years, but it still takes about 3-4 times that of loading an equivalent konatkt patch does. (Mind you I have about 1200 MB/sec drive speed with my Play drives and I'm blown away how long it takes to load a template. LASS is only coming from a standard SATA 3 drive and loads faster.

You cannot customize your patches the way you can in Kontakt. E.g. custom keyswitch patch building, re-assigning and changing CCs. 

You cannot access and build your own custom patches from the libraries samples. Ghostwriter is a great example. I'd love to be able to create my own patches from the raw samples but you can't…

And as others have pointed out, I cannot stand the fact that you cannot license transfer. 

Play in my opinion (and it's only an opinion…) is poorly coded and not nearly as efficient as it should be. IMO it should perform equal to its competitor and EW seem to move at a snail's pace when it comes to making Play more efficient loading samples and utilizing CPU.

As an example of performance comparison: I can load LASS's full legato glissando portamento ARC patch. (16 channels of Divisi with legato and portamento, and weighs in a 2+ GB.) It loads in less time than a smaller Play patch does. The LASS patch, which is just as demanding on CPU plays fine at a buffer of 512. Stacking together an equivalent Hollywood Strings patch in play will load dramatically slower and causes dropouts once I start playing faster passages… it simply just doesn't perform as smoothly as it competitor. Which is a shame, as I've dropped a small fortune on these libraries.

So, it's really a choice of whether great sound is worth the trade off of mediocre performance. I personally have mixed feelings. Again, the sound is amazing. the performance? Not so much...


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 12, 2014)

I think it is a principle of consumer rights that is well worth persuing. Not for any financial compensation on my part but as a matter of principle.

I am consulting with legal experts in the Uk in the hope of bringing this to the attention of the European Court.


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## Michael K. Bain (Dec 12, 2014)

creativeforge @ Thu Dec 11 said:


> I don't believe in antagonizing anyone, but such amazing prowess to not give in to say "We're really sorry, or we know we should be for the way we seem, to many, to deflect blame, for so many years, about so many issues. we're trying to learn from our mistakes and appreciate the frank and polite feedback."
> 
> "We acknowledge that just because we put out great products doesn't mean we're perfect. Admittedly, on that particular thread (vibraphone motor), we missed it. we apologize for it and will swiftly engage the user to talk shop with him/her. Thank you for pointing it to us."
> 
> ...



Well said, Andre. Well said! By the way, did you ever get the link I sent?


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## Diffusor (Dec 12, 2014)

JohnG @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Diffusor @ 11th December 2014 said:
> 
> 
> > 1) PLAY has historically been awful in performance and stability and EW is slow to fix those problems.
> ...




So can you load and simultaneously play back all sections of Hollywood Strings with the big legato patches with all the mics on off one disk without glitches? I can do it with the adaptive legato patches of Berlin Strings and Kontakt, could never do it with PLAY and HS.


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## Daryl (Dec 12, 2014)

TGV @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Daryl @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > As a sample library includes audio recordings, they are unaffected by this ruling. It would only take effect for instruments that are 100% modelled.
> ...


Not the case here. You have a licence to use the recordings for a specific purpose, in the same way as we, as composers, give a licence to use our recordings for specific purposes. If what you say is true, then someone would be able to licence one of your recordings for a TV show and then use it on any other TV show, throughout the world, without paying you any extra.

D


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

Diffusor @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> JohnG @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Diffusor @ 11th December 2014 said:
> ...



Diffusor, nobody I know, including Nick Phoenix, uses all the HS mic positions simultaneously. There is no real sonic advantage to doing so. I use 2 however with no problem, even on my Mac. If you really want me to, I can run a test on my slave pc and see how many I can load and run but is that going to make any differences in your opinions?


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## Pingu (Dec 12, 2014)

Beermaster @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> compare this to VSL which before this time had a deal for people who wanted to step up and pay the full price for the symphonic CUBE which would then allow them to receive all future products for free. . .. thus making the early investment in the program a good reciprocal arrangement … money comes in, customers rewarded for their investment



I don't remember this offer - and I was following VSL intently when it was born. I do remember the promise that no customer would ever pay twice for the same samples, which turned out to be hooey. There was a partial rescinding of the offer when they introduced VI, and everyone had to upgrade from Giga versions of their libraries to Vienna versions. This was understandable, since there were new development costs, though the price was steep, and felt rather like we were buying the samples again. But then the upgrade paths were withdrawn, and customers who'd had the Giga libraries simply had to full price pay again. Vienna made all kinds of claims that the upgrade routes were simply becoming too complex, which was clearly a bunch of crap, since the introduction of individual instruments and special editions has since made it possible to take 1000s of routes to full ownership. 

Compare that with EW. After 15 years there is still an upgrade route from Kontakt to Play versions of RA and EWQLSC.

Whilst I don't particularly like EW, let's be clear that most developers upset people in some way, usually whilst trying to keep as many people as possible happy, and the reasons they give will always sound like baloney to those who have fallen foul.


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## creativeforge (Dec 12, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Well said, Andre. Well said! By the way, did you ever get the link I sent?



Thanks Michael, and for the link, can you forward it to my email at creativeforge at gmail dot com? Thanks man!


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## Diffusor (Dec 12, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Diffusor @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest and Play have a well heralded infamy for often very good reasons.
> ...



8 and ) does an emoticon. Sorry.

5. Yeah I get it. Just most other sample developers don't ever usually have such drastic bargain bin discounts as EW. In fact a lot of them discount on presales or introductory offer which goes up, then maybe occasionally has modest sales.

6. Most dongled software and sounds are transferable in my experience. But of course, yes I am aware and now will not buy anymore EW products ever.

8. Sorry, that's just a pet peeve of mine. Shilling is the worse. If you don't mind developers creating dummy accounts playing up their wares and flaming those that have a problem that's cool. THere's no inside disclosure thing about it. It was a very public affair and I think all of it it still available to read over at GS. It was actually a quite comical and farcical affair the way it went down, very entertaining to say the least. 

Ultimately like you say I don't care anymore about any of this but I was just responding to the OP's question why EW have gotten such a bad rep and just posted some of the things of why.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 12, 2014)

OP Valerie- glad you asked? :wink:


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## Michael K. Bain (Dec 12, 2014)

creativeforge @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Michael K. Bain @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Well said, Andre. Well said! By the way, did you ever get the link I sent?
> ...



On its way!


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## Diffusor (Dec 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Diffusor @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > JohnG @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> ...



That's cool. I was just using that as illustration of the performance differences between Kontakt and PLAY. The adaptive legato patches of HS and BS are similar concepts and both have multiple mic positions. This is not opinion. I know from experience in the past you can't load up all sections and all mics of HS and play them back at the same time off one SSD without massive glitches. PLAY just wasnt capable of that kind of throughput like Kontakt. If this has changed of course I would change my opinion. I would happy to see if you could just load up one mic position of each string section adaptive legatos and play back all off one disk.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

Once again, beside the point if there is no compelling reason to do so. Their are 5 mic positions to give people choices. That does not mean anyone intended people to use all 5 simultaneously.

Also, and I know I have posted this before, I was told it was less of a Play issue than the way HS uses tons of small audio files rather than fewer monoliths that make it so much more demanding than patches form other libraries, but I cannot verify that. 

At the end of the day, all that matters to me as a user is can I get a sound that I really like, have all the articulations I need and will my rig handle it?


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## Valérie_D (Dec 12, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> OP Valerie- glad you asked? :wink:



I sure am o[]) 

@ creativeforge : Thanks for the link and the kind words!


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 12, 2014)

Daryl @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> TGV @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> ...



A software musical instrument is not the same as a musical recording. The software and the audio files are one product which is a software instrument. Software is re-sellable under European Law.

Also if I choose to resell any of my Led Zep CD's, do Led Zep or their record company receive any money, NO!

A company which uses legal loopholes to ride roughshod over consumers rights to their own advantage says a lot about their ethics.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

So guitarman, what about the other EW competitors who also do not allow the re-sale? I don't see you criticizing them.


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## Diffusor (Dec 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Once again, beside the point if there is no compelling reason to do so. Their are 5 mic positions to give people choices. That does not mean anyone intended people to use all 5 simultaneously.
> 
> Also, and I know I have posted this before, I was told it was less of a Play issue than the way HS uses tons of small audio files rather than fewer monoliths that make it so much more demanding than patches form other libraries, but I cannot verify that.
> 
> At the end of the day, all that matters to me as a user is can I get a sound that I really like, have all the articulations I need and will my rig handle it?



I know you won't and can't admit Kontakt is more efficient than PLAY so we will just leave it at that.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

Actually I suspect Kontakt is perhaps more efficient than Play, at least on the Mac, but the EXS24 is more efficient than either of them.


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 12, 2014)

As this thread was about East West, that is where I posted. 
The same of course applies to any company using these unfair terms and conditions.

I bought products from East West before I was aware that resale was not allowed.
I have never since, nor will ever in future purchase any products from any company that doesn't allow resale.


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## bbunker (Dec 12, 2014)

And lo - this thread hath done as every EW thread before.

I guess to sum up,

If you're the kind of person who really, really hates knowing that someone else may have gotten a better deal than you, don't buy EW.

If you're the kind of person who is more concerned about being able to load or use every single microphone position or every patch, regardless of any actual usage, then don't buy EW.

If you go buy work tools only if you can sell them at some point, don't buy EW.

If you can't get your head around what many perceive as being arrogant or just-plain-jerky behaviour by a library's creator or developer, don't buy EW.

If you harbor a latent feeling that developing your own sample library player is on its own a display of grotesque hubris, then don't buy EW.

If you find yourself regularly comparing libraries that routinely go for $1100 and $200, then don't buy EW. 

That about does it. In the words of Larry, aren't you glad you asked???


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

guitarman1960 @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> As this thread was about East West, that is where I posted.
> The same of course applies to any company using these unfair terms and conditions.
> 
> I bought products from East West before I was aware that resale was not allowed.
> I have never since, nor will ever in future purchase any products from any company that doesn't allow resale.



So to be clear: you will also never buy products from Audiobro, Spitfire, or Cinesamples as well as EW?


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## Diffusor (Dec 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> So guitarman, what about the other EW competitors who also do not allow the re-sale? I don't see you criticizing them.



Most "competitors" that use a dongle you can afaik. I can understand and forgive unprotected libs like from 8Dio or Spitfire but there's really no compelling reason for why you can't sell dongled things. Imagine if Korg said people couldn't resale the Kronos because it has sampled recordings, there would be quite the outcry and people would probably be hesitant to buy one. Dongled PLAY rompler software is essentially the same concept as a hardware rompler keyboard. The dongle makes the computer software hardware essentially.


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## alextone (Dec 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Once again, beside the point if there is no compelling reason to do so. Their are 5 mic positions to give people choices. That does not mean anyone intended people to use all 5 simultaneously.
> 
> Also, and I know I have posted this before, I was told it was less of a Play issue than the way HS uses tons of small audio files rather than fewer monoliths that make it so much more demanding than patches form other libraries, but I cannot verify that.
> 
> At the end of the day, all that matters to me as a user is can I get a sound that I really like, have all the articulations I need and will my rig handle it?



On this particular point,

Having 5 mic positions running for Spitfire Mural Strings V1 works well here. (Single VST Kontakt instance for all Strings running in Reaper/Wine/Linux 64bit. The studio box is an i7 8 core and has 64GB of RAM.)

I certainly think the Spitfire team intend that users are likely to use all 5 mic positions when desired, as a composite "complete" spacial environment. So it's not unusual anymore, imho, and the reverse may be true. Libs that can't do this are perhaps now seen as behind the times, or a little dated?

My 2 Euros worth,

Alex.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 12, 2014)

@Valérie:

I have to say I'm very ambivalent about EW-Play.
On my Mac the performance is rather poor, specially when compared to other libraries.
[Platinum orchester doesn't work properly, timing issues all the time, but 1.) lot of other users don't have that problem and 2.) the other EW-Libraries work at least.]
So for me the EW-libraries are rather "special guests" in my sessions, while libraries as VSL or LASS are the main actors.
But i also have to say that i would probably buy other products from EW when they would be offered as samples for Kontakt (or even EXS24).

What not really alters my opinion is the fact that the choirs with wordbuilder are buggy for years, and that's known, but nobody cares.

Probably it would be best for you to try out the performance on your computer. Since it's iLok-ed, you could maybe manage this with a friend who has the library.
Either everything is fine or not. If not, you shouldn't expect too much.
I have my issues for years and the ideas of the support were rather poor. (what's simply due to the fact that the software obviously isn't really well programmed).


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## Daryl (Dec 12, 2014)

guitarman1960 @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> A software musical instrument is not the same as a musical recording. The software and the audio files are one product which is a software instrument.


I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the lack of re-sale one way or another, but an instrument that uses recordings is not software. By all means consult a lawyer, but this has been discussed many times, and audio copyright is covered by different laws to software.

D


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

alextone @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Once again, beside the point
> ...



This "composite complete spacial environment" idea is not my understanding of how engineers think about mics for orchestral instruments, nor have I ever heard one speak in those terms. Most that I have worked with use some mic that is more disperse like a Decca tree, to capture the room and one more close to add detail.

But if that is how the fine folks at Spitfire intend their library to be used, I have no issue with it. But for HS, I have never heard a sampled string sound I prefer to what HS sounds like with 2 mic positions, but that is of course a subjective judgement people can make for themselves. And when I would want to alter the sound I more likely would layer with another library than add another mic position.

Again, just my approach.


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 12, 2014)

Jay, just to be fair here, I think East West products do sound amazing, and they would be on my list to purchase if not for the no resale thing.
Just saying :D


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

guitarman1960 @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Jay, just to be fair here, I think East West products do sound amazing, and they would be on my list to purchase if not for the no resale thing.
> Just saying :D



I hear you and I could glibly say "well if I owned the company, I would allow it" but I do not have the experience or the knowledge that Doug has to assess that decision, which as I say, was also reached by some other pretty darned good developers.


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## JohnG (Dec 12, 2014)

Diffusor @ 12th December 2014 said:


> I know from experience in the past you can't load up all sections and all mics of HS and play them back at the same time off one SSD without massive glitches. PLAY just wasnt capable of that kind of throughput like Kontakt. If this has changed of course I would change my opinion. I would happy to see if you could just load up one mic position of each string section adaptive legatos and play back all off one disk.



I bought EW from the beginning because of the sound, not its efficiency, which honestly I don't even think about when trying to coax music out of computers. When EWQLSO first arrived, Nick recommended eight PCs to run the full library. While I started off with one slave, I liked it so much that eventually I bought six computer slaves, which was expensive and a bit complicated, but I did it anyway because I liked what I was hearing so much better than the alternatives.

Luckily, one doesn't need multiple computers to run HS, though I do recommend a PC slave. If you want to use HS and find it too demanding on your disk or CPU, consider trying the "light" programs. They load faster (naturally) and in many musical settings are indistinguishable sonically from the "large system" / biggest patches. Jose Herring has written that he prefers the light patches anyway, and I use them too. They use vastly fewer voices.

I don't think PLAY can play back as many voices as Kontakt. However, some HS users have attributed something to PLAY -- the playback engine -- that actually is instead an attribute of HS' most demanding programs -- a ton of voices streaming simultaneously.

I think it works like this:

1. Each mic position _on the most demanding_ HS patches (not at all the same with other EW libraries -- this is particular to HS) triggers 13 voices...

2. ...BUT, at any one time, you hear only a small number of the voices, depending on where cc1 and cc11 are set. The idea is to allow changes in timbre and vibrato that are very smooth and musical as you move those controllers while holding a note.

3. So, if one uses, say, two mic positions, each note generates 26 voices. If one plays a fast line, far more voices can be generated because of the release tails.

It is for this reason that many mistake a fault of PLAY, when actually it's a decision by Nick and Thomas to try creating what they think is the best sound for HS. Hollywood Brass or SD2/3, by contrast, are far less demanding. Also, those lite HS patches sound quite good...

I think in the HS walk-throughs Nick usually uses two mic positions, but I haven't watched one in a while so I could be mistaken. If you don't love the sound of the most demanding patches, or are using a lot of percussion and synths that tend to mask some of the subtleties anyway, or you want to play many mic positions, then consider using a lighter HS patch.

We work in a competitive market, so I hire players, study scores, and get the best-sounding samples I can. When I get a chance at a job, they are referencing, usually, major scores by top composers. Your competitors' work for a given project will have been created with sometimes racks of computers, FX, live recordings -- all of it. Drawing a line on how many computers or SSDs I'm going to buy or "that's enough FX" or "no more libraries for me," seems self-defeating. I don't have any idea what the resale policy is for the libraries I buy.

I love the sound of EW (and the sounds of a lot of other gifted, dedicated developers) so I find a way to make it work to get the sound I like.

[note: I have received free products from East West]


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## vasio (Dec 12, 2014)

when ew hollywood strings first came out, the demos sounded flat out amazing. still do. the conclusion after around a month to six weeks later was that it was the best string library on earth trapped in the worst possible sampler.

i have nothing against ew. i get that they want to keep their libraries safe from piracy. 

personally, native instruments' silence on how easily kontakt's security protocols can be circumvented is deafening. i honestly think the solution is to add a dongle for native instruments kontakt. i'm no fan of dongles. but its working for uad, working for waves and steven slate. 

i'd love to see ew libraries in kontakt. but in a new secured dongle based kontakt. best of both worlds and would make ew a major player again. love ew hate play. nuff said.


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## alextone (Dec 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> alextone @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> ...



Certainly, each to his or her own, and i stress here, i'm only presenting my perspective of the SP mindset, based on their interactions with customers. (And based on that, i'm now one of them)

However, as someone who has had to layer libs for a millenia, i quite like the simple option of simply dialling up another mic position, instead of hacking through another blending session.

Can i respectfully suggest you take the time to watch/listen to the SP YT channel? And maybe make a modest purchase, and experience the ease of use for yourself?

My point is, i'm a working composing hack, so just one type of user. If the lib manufacturers make a product that makes my life easier, i'll have a look (And Spitfire certainly does that, imho). If that product, paid for with my hard earned Euros, doesn't perform up to stated spec, and their response is less than "sorry about that, we're trying to fix this, so you get what you actually paid for, and here's where we are at the moment....", then i might be a little perturbed.

Testing a product for sale to the public in an ideal test environment in the company studio seems ok at the time. But we all know that's not always the end result out there in the big wide world. (And as someone who had to manage an unruly herd of dedicated gigastudio boxes for a number of years, with the adrenalin rush and terrifying uncertainty of "can i load one more instrument before it crashes and burns?" I know this from experience)

There seems to be a get out of purgatory card associated with software products. I'm sure we've all had examples of the delight of purchasing software related products, the near elvish experience of unwrapping the package, and ever so carefully loading this wonderous marvel on our machines, only to discover the heart wrenching despair of a...."bug".

It's at this point, in the midst of the Customer's Hadian gloom that companies can make or break the relationship.

In other words, it's not always the user's fault. 

Alex.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

It would be inappropriate of me to publicly comment on a competitor's libraries other than to say I have some (limited) experience with them.


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## alextone (Dec 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> It would be inappropriate of me to publicly comment on a competitor's libraries other than to say I have some (limited) experience with them.



Of course, i wouldn't expect you to make some sort of official response.

I was addressing the half human/*half musician* Jay......

Alex.


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## StatKsn (Dec 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> It would be inappropriate of me to publicly comment on a competitor's libraries other than to say I have some (limited) experience with them.


Are you sure? You have always been saying that you are not an EW employee, and that you have a freedom to talk about anything you want, including EW products and other developer's. I won't doubt it. IMO it's not very inappropriate because everyone here understands where you are coming from.

I personally share the view that there may be not much use for 3 or more mic positions in HS. I don't remember myself using other than just Main/Close, or Main+Amb/Vintage or Close+Mid, and the result is satisfactory enough to my ears. I believe that is how HS was designed.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

StatKsn @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > It would be inappropriate of me to publicly comment on a competitor's libraries other than to say I have some (limited) experience with them.
> ...



I have never said I am not an EW employee, I AM a (part-time) EW employee. In the beginning I did in fact sometimes discuss other competitive products here and a couple of developers complained to Frederick, threatened to stop advertising, and I got banned for a couple of weeks., 

So now, I only discuss products that are not directly competitive with EW products, and I only review them after I clear it with Doug first.


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## Synesthesia (Dec 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> In the beginning I did in fact sometimes discuss other competitive products here and a couple of developers complained to Frederick, threatened to stop advertising, and I got banned for a couple of weeks.,




Just for the record that wasn't us!

:D


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > In the beginning I did in fact sometimes discuss other competitive products here and a couple of developers complained to Frederick, threatened to stop advertising, and I got banned for a couple of weeks.,
> ...



I know, I don't think you guys were even in existence then.


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## mk282 (Dec 12, 2014)

vasio @ 12.12.2014 said:


> personally, native instruments' silence on how easily kontakt's security protocols can be circumvented is deafening. i honestly think the solution is to add a dongle for native instruments kontakt. i'm no fan of dongles. but its working for uad, working for waves and steven slate.
> 
> i'd love to see ew libraries in kontakt. but in a new secured dongle based kontakt. best of both worlds and would make ew a major player again. love ew hate play. nuff said.



NI are not a fan of dongles, Kontakt won't ever have a dongle.


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## adriaantaylor (Dec 12, 2014)

YES love the EW libraries but they are the fracking stingiest jerks with their additional licenses pricing and such.. Sheesh. Had to buy the damn thing 2 extra times for almost full price. Sadly just missed the discount LOL.. figures.

Thats my only complaint. No issues with play myself. 





WorshipMaestro @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> Valérie_D @ Wed Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks everyone! I have a mac pro 8core with 32 gigs of ram, I would be glad to run Eastwest Libraries in Kontakt.
> ...


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## Valérie_D (Dec 12, 2014)

Hey since everybody is here, could I know if the ''lite'' EW patches are only found on the silver libraries or if it's on the gold as well as the diamond libraries? Are these better for mac?

I was also wondering, besides EW and OT which require SSD harddrive, does anybody have an idea if any other developpers require SSD (external) drive to run their libraries?

I was lurking at SpitFire, Embertone, I bought OE but it is not installed yet, Sonokinetic, etc

Of course SSD is always better but if anyone runs libraries on good old internal hard drives, please share, many thanks!


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## José Herring (Dec 12, 2014)

I run all libraries other than HS and HB on 7200 drives with no problems. On rare occasion Cinematic Strings will have an issue, but I have to be putting a ton of notes through it before that happens.

Though Kontakt based libraries will perform better on SSD, it's not a necessity. Play makes running HS and HB on SSD practically a necessity. They say it's because of the amount of samples, but I'm not so sure that's the cause. I suspect it's because there's some sort of real time decryption going on that effects the performance of Play libraries, or an inefficient scripting engine that gets more noticeable as the libraries get larger. But that is pure speculation on my part.


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## StatKsn (Dec 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> In the beginning I did in fact sometimes discuss other competitive products here and a couple of developers complained to Frederick, threatened to stop advertising, and I got banned for a couple of weeks., .


Ouch. I'm very sorry to hear that. That (you are not going in-depth about competitive products anymore) makes sense, then.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 12, 2014)

Valérie_D @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Hey since everybody is here, could I know if the ''lite'' EW patches are only found on the silver libraries or if it's on the gold as well as the diamond libraries? Are these better for mac?
> 
> I was also wondering, besides EW and OT which require SSD harddrive, does anybody have an idea if any other developpers require SSD (external) drive to run their libraries?
> 
> ...



I may have missed it- did you list your system specs? It really depends on how dense your orchestrations are, how many voices you're streaming at any one time, how demanding your processing is (reverbs and spatializers and stuff). Slave computers are helpful obviously, a lot of RAM, some libraries are more COU dependent because of scripting, etc etc.

Edit- to more directly answer your questions, I run some libraries on my Mac Pro 2008 with internal SATA drives, but the SSD's on my slave Mini run the bulk of my template. The Silver HS and HB run fine on SSD's, and I'm just starting to use Gold. Most of Gold is just extra articulations, so it should run fine.


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## jcrosby (Dec 12, 2014)

josejherring @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Play makes running HS and HB on SSD practically a necessity. They say it's because of the amount of samples, but I'm not so sure that's the cause. I suspect it's because there's some sort of real time decryption going on that effects the performance of Play libraries, or an inefficient scripting engine that gets more noticeable as the libraries get larger. But that is pure speculation on my part.



That seems to be the case. 
You can see the number of simultaneous voices in use in both Kontakt and Play. Kontakt will stream maaaany more voices simultaneously before giving you grief than Play will.

So I stick to my original comment; the sound is gorgeous, the coding of Play is dreadful and long overdue for an overhaul.


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## Valérie_D (Dec 12, 2014)

@ NYC composer : Hi, I have a mac pro late 2009 with 2 quadcore 2,66 Ghz processors and 32 gigs of ram.


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## prodigalson (Dec 12, 2014)

I'm running mainly Spitfire BML, EW Hollywood Series and CineSamples Cinesymphony
Of those the only product I have that I would say you'd be much happier running off an SSD (with the exception of the Hollywood Series) is CineStrings. Other than that, everything I own runs fine off 7200 rpm HDDs.

Obviously running everything off an SSD would be better. 

Something weird I've noticed in HOW, is that some similar legato patches load much slower on some instruments than others. For ex, my Clarinet leg slur loads way faster than Flute legato. Even off an SSD. 

Anyone have any thoughts on what the most optimal settings within Play are for streaming from an SSD?


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## kitekrazy (Dec 12, 2014)

mk282 @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> vasio @ 12.12.2014 said:
> 
> 
> > personally, native instruments' silence on how easily kontakt's security protocols can be circumvented is deafening. i honestly think the solution is to add a dongle for native instruments kontakt. i'm no fan of dongles. but its working for uad, working for waves and steven slate.
> ...



More vendors are making it an option to use a dongle. Dongles seem to be popular here. 

Outside of this forum EW is a major player. People looking for a starter orchestra, EWQL Silver or Gold is recommended. It's ready to play out of the box and makes an impression on newbies.


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## kitekrazy (Dec 12, 2014)

Valérie_D @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> *Hey since everybody is here, could I know if the ''lite'' EW patches are only found on the silver libraries or if it's on the gold as well as the diamond libraries?*



I would like to know this myself. I upgraded to HOS gold because it was a great deal. I bought it so they can be used when I upgrade a system or two in the future.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

I am pretty certain that there are lite patches s in Gold and absolutely in Diamond.


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## milesito (Dec 12, 2014)

Yep, I got the lite patches in gold.


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## Daniel James (Dec 12, 2014)

Little late on this one but in my experience there is nothing particularly wrong with EastWest as a company...bar the occasional outburst from the developer telling people to take the software and shove it up their ass or the more common support/community employees who tend to treat any genuine criticisms with hostility or even make out the customer is clearly in the wrong (when the problem is posted multiple times from multiple people)

The EastWest samples are of very high quality, they have sounded great from as far back as I remember (I vaguely remember my jaw hitting the flaw at an Alex Pfeffer demo back in the EWQL SO days). The main problem people have is with the PLAY engine which is VERY hit and miss. You will find some people who run it fine on a single machine and others who cant even get it stable on the most powerful of rigs. Another issue some take is that they set the recommended specs on their site alot lower than they later tell you in forum posts you actually need. (I wonder how many times people here have told you that to actually use it you will most likely need SSD's or a slave machine)

Then of course you have the slooooow load times. Unless you are running a VEPro (or equivalent) template, which has all your samples loaded all the time, every time you load a project you will spend more time waiting for one lite patch to load than every other Kontakt patch combined. Its painful when you want to jump between cues and you are sitting there waiting for that fucking blue bar to fill up after you just watched 10 black Kontakt boxes open and finish in a split second.

So then of course once you get the samples loaded you have to actually stream them...now some libraries ie Hollywood Strings are worse offenders than others...but PLAY is a serious resource hog, I have had entire orchestral projects running fine with Kontakt, but the second I load in a single PLAY patch...boom slowdowns, drop outs and clicks.

So yeah the company in generally ok, samples sound great, PLAY still useless for many. I reccomend getting a cheap library from them to test the waters for a bit, check your load times, check how they work when you have a full project on the go, then decide if it works well enough for you. Don't jump in head first for the more expensive ones only to be told its your fault it doesnt work XD

-DJ


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## germancomponist (Dec 12, 2014)

East West ever said that you need the best computer , SSD drives e.t.c. to run their libs. 
They never did a secret, never ever! 

They always knew that their library/ies needs the greatest power of a computer, but they never made a secret of it!

I know so many people who are happy, using all the great EW libs!


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## jcrosby (Dec 12, 2014)

Another thing I should mention is some of the legato patches are broken. The legato slur patch in HW Brass does this obnoxious thing where the attacks of each note are dramatically louder than the slurs so you get this odd enveloping sound once you start programming fast runs. All of the HW legato slur scripts are generally inconsistent.

Unless they fess up and fix these issues I won't recommend them with any real enthusiasm... (Which will be……………. never… :roll: )


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## Daniel James (Dec 12, 2014)

germancomponist @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> East West ever said that you need the best computer , SSD drives e.t.c. to run their libs.
> They never did a secret, never ever!
> 
> They always knew that their library/ies needs the greatest power of a computer, but they never made a secret of it!
> ...



Hollywood Strings:

MAC Minimum:

Intel Core 2 Duo Processor 2.1GHz or higher
4GB RAM
Mac OS X 10.5 or later
7200 RPM or faster (non energy saving) hard drive for sample streaming
310GB free hard drive space / iLok Security Key (not supplied)

MAC RECOMMENDED SYSTEM

Mac Pro Quad-Core Intel Xeon 2.66GHz or higher
8GB RAM or more
7200 RPM or faster (non energy saving) hard drive for sample streaming
310GB free hard drive space / iLok Security Key (not supplied)

I have a 2.8ghz 8 Core Mac Pro with 22 gigs of RAM. And it runs like ass on my machine. Their Optimal system specs should be their recommended or minimum TBH. It seems like the specs are set low so that people with lesser machines get suckered into buying the libraries. Then later when they run like shit, EW and its forum employees will just go on the forums saying...."Yeah you should probably use it with an SSD and Slave machine" ....if that what you recommend to get it working right... make that the fucking recommended settings!

-DJ


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## RiffWraith (Dec 12, 2014)

jcrosby @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> The legato slur patch in HW Brass does this obnoxious thing where the attacks of each note are dramatically louder than the slurs so you get this odd enveloping sound once you start programming fast runs.



So turn down the legato volume. :idea: :D


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

I guess my comment about how fair and measured this thread is was premature.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 12, 2014)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc5WcCnyLcs&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc5WcCn ... e=youtu.be)

That's forearm smashes in Play (Quantum Leap Pianos) looped. I didn't capture the audio - got lazy - but you'll have to trust me that it's working fine without glitching.

2008 8 x 2.8GHz, 24GB RAM, Logic X. 256 sample buffer, streaming off a garden variety 7200 RPM hard drive.

In VE Pro it looks like this (Logic's processing meters):


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## José Herring (Dec 12, 2014)

jcrosby @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Another thing I should mention is some of the legato patches are broken. The legato slur patch in HW Brass does this obnoxious thing where the attacks of each note are dramatically louder than the slurs so you get this odd enveloping sound once you start programming fast runs. All of the HW legato slur scripts are generally inconsistent.
> 
> Unless they fess up and fix these issues I won't recommend them with any real enthusiasm... (Which will be……………. never… :roll: )



It's comments like this that make me face palm. 

As riff says. Just turn down the sustain or turn up the transition, or if you're using the stacc slur patches turn down the stacc part.


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## Craig Sharmat (Dec 12, 2014)

Daniel we are going to request that you cool your jets in bad mouthing EW, your take rehashing this constantly is tiring. Jay has been given a timeout for similar behavior in the past and we don't like the incessant rehashing of similar complaints. We have to hold everyone to the same standards or lack thereof.


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## jcrosby (Dec 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> I guess my comment about how fair and measured this thread is was premature.



I can't think of another sample company that takes nearly this much flack publicly, it's obviously not a coincidence. Especially when you see the same gripes coming up for 4+ years.

As someone said in another thread, criticism is ultimately there to help the manufacturer make improvements. Maybe it wears an ugly face at times, but it's ultimately to improve the user experience…

If EW chooses to deflect honest criticism, instead of welcome it and use it to improve their line, that's their choice. And when when users take to the forum and the criticism is deflected by laying the blame on the shoulders of the user after publishing clearly under spec'd requirements, well …. that's what you see here isn't it… 

Even people showing their frustration have said the libraries sound phenomenal. Shouldn't that tell you guys something already? Clearly the quality of samples aren't the source of frustration, Play's bugs are.


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## Casiquire (Dec 12, 2014)

I'm a bit late to the game too, but my problem with EW is also not with the samples. Anyone saying the samples sound bad is basically trolling or speaking with their emotions instead of their ears. But I do get the impression that they care very little for customer concerns, and while Jay is amazing and I love him I think he's one step too far removed from the "face" of the company to change that perception. They also stop updating products after a while even if there are still little bus here and there--basically they don't feel like a "living library". Just my opinion, I'd rather not start any drama by digging up history again and going into detail about why I feel that way. For the record, Play has been solid on my system since version 2! Also I think you'll find their Hollywood series has been carefully programed for the most part and I doubt you'd regret making that purchase.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

jcrosby @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > I guess my comment about how fair and measured this thread is was premature.
> ...



Go back through the entire thread though and count the number of people who are saying this stuff vs e.g "Play is not as full featured as Kontakt but it is fine on my system."


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## pkm (Dec 12, 2014)

I consistently run large Kontakt patches with no problems. Forearm-smashing pedal-down pianos, multiple big legato string patches, but open up a Gypsy accordion or cimbalom and I get clickety clickety click.

I have nothing against EastWest as a company (although I often don't agree with their approach to programming...and that solo violin...), but for me, there are plenty of other options available that just plain work. I like simple, and for me, Kontakt is simple and PLAY is not.

PLAY works great for some people, and I envy them because I do really like the sound of many EW libraries, but I have simply decided not to concern myself with PLAY anymore and haven't missed it.


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## davidgary73 (Dec 12, 2014)

@Jay

I'm still facing issues like hang notes n need to reset the Play engine. This happens too often. Any work around to prevent this? 

And occasionally loud noise burnt. Not cool at all


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

Well as _everybody_ knows I have a _magical_ 2012 iMac that EW had Apple custom build for me so I can trick you all.....Oh wait a minute, it isn't that, it is just that they gave me secret code to implement at midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil that nobody else has 

Here are 5 of the most demanding patches of HS, the Marc Legato Slur & Portamento patches from the Powerful System folder running in Logic Pro X at a buffer of 128 streaming from an SSD with no pops and clicks.


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## Diffusor (Dec 12, 2014)

Daniel James @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Little late on this one but in my experience there is nothing particularly wrong with EastWest as a company...bar the occasional outburst from the developer telling people to take the software and shove it up their ass or the more common support/community employees who tend to treat any genuine criticisms with hostility or even make out the customer is clearly in the wrong (when the problem is posted multiple times from multiple people)
> 
> The EastWest samples are of very high quality, they have sounded great from as far back as I remember (I vaguely remember my jaw hitting the flaw at an Alex Pfeffer demo back in the EWQL SO days). The main problem people have is with the PLAY engine which is VERY hit and miss. You will find some people who run it fine on a single machine and others who cant even get it stable on the most powerful of rigs. Another issue some take is that they set the recommended specs on their site alot lower than they later tell you in forum posts you actually need. (I wonder how many times people here have told you that to actually use it you will most likely need SSD's or a slave machine)
> 
> ...



Very diplomatic way of saying the obvious.  I really don't get the naysayers of the naysayers here. As soon as you admit there is problem the sooner you can rectify the problem. It's not scandalous to say a large section of people have traditionally had issues with PLAY. A quick Google can see a vast array of dissatisfaction with PLAY. Stuff like Kontakt and Vienna Instruments are universally loved. The only contention is that is EW willing to fix this issues or just won't or can't fix them and resort to obfuscation to quell any discent. If I ran a company and I had such obvious discontent I would instantly go about appeasing and satisfying those customers, or at least try an be sympathetic. But then again this might just go back to the the company's arrogance.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

davidgary73 @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> @Jay
> 
> I'm still facing issues like hang notes n need to reset the Play engine. This happens too often. Any work around to prevent this?
> 
> And occasionally loud noise burnt. Not cool at all



I would need specifics about your system. That is not true here on my iMac or my PC.


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## Diffusor (Dec 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Well as _everybody_ knows I have a _magical_ 2012 iMac that EW had Apple custom build for me so I can trick you all.....Oh wait a minute, it isn't that, it is just that they gave me secret code to implement at midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil that nobody else has
> 
> Here are 5 of the most demanding patches of HS, the Marc Legato Slur & Portamento patches from the Powerful System folder running in Logic Pro X at a buffer of 128 streaming from an SSD with no pops and clicks.



Good job. Now how many mics? Can you play back all mics? Now of course you wouldn't do this in reality as you say with HS but we are talking about comparative performance and the economy difference between PLAY and something like Kontakt.


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## jcrosby (Dec 12, 2014)

Well considering I'm running it in VEP on a 12 core with 64GB of RAM spread out over a boatload of SSDs, and have tried every performance tweak under the sun, I can only speak from my experience. Sounds absolutely fantastic, performs poorly next to any other sample library I use. 

Again, criticism like this is there to ultimately help the manufacturer to improve the user experience. I don't think anyone on here complaining is taking out their holiday frustrations, it's real stuff that some users such as myself experience, even on a seriously well spec'd machine. 

Asking me to count the threads? Sorry man, I've got better things to do with my night.


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## davidgary73 (Dec 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> davidgary73 @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > @Jay
> ...



Mac Pro (2012) 2x2.4Ghz 6-core Intel Xeon, 28Gb ram, running sample in SSD. Is running in 7200 drive


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

And once agin if you look at the most negative posts, the majority are by about 3-4 people who do so repeatedly, which gives the impression that there are more negative views than there are.

Diffusor, I will make you an offer. I believe you said you still own some Play libraries. Let's do a Skype session and I will spend an hour with you with the latest version of Play and see what happens.

I only will demand one thing of you: if I help you get it running smoothly, you come back here and say so.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

Diffusor @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Well as _everybody_ knows I have a _magical_ 2012 iMac that EW had Apple custom build for me so I can trick you all.....Oh wait a minute, it isn't that, it is just that they gave me secret code to implement at midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil that nobody else has
> ...


 

But it is not a contest between Play and Kpntakt. This is not a wrestling match. If you love the sound of Hollywood Strings more than any other, and you factor in the completeness of it and the cost, then you need Play. If you are happier with other libraries or at least as happy with their sound, completeness, and cost, then by all means, do us all a favor and just use those.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

[quote="jcrosby @ Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:39 pm"

Asking me to count the threads? Sorry man, I've got better things to do with my night.[/quote]

Like writing multiple posts like this?


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## Diffusor (Dec 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> And once agin if you look at the most negative posts, the majority are by about 3-4 people who do so repeatedly, which gives the impression that there are more negative views than there are.
> 
> Diffusor, I will make you an offer. I believe you said you still own some Play libraries. Let's do a Skype session and I will spend an hour with you with the latest version of Play and see what happens.
> 
> I only will demand one thing of you: if I help you get it running smoothly, you come back here and say so.



BS. Yeah there are repeat customers but just in this thread there have been numerous random people admitting PLAY is not that efficient compared to other samplers.


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## Diffusor (Dec 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Diffusor @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> ...



You are totally missing the point. I am talking about PLAY performance and efficiency. I already told you I can play back all mics on all section of Berlin Strings off one SSD, on a non-dedicated machine in fact. Berlin Strings has adaptive legato just like HS so I think it's a fair comparison and delta on performance differences. Regardless, I liked running two mics of HS, usually the the close mics and one of the wetter mics, and PLAY was hardly capable of running one mic without the occasional glitch..


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

Diffusor @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Diffusor @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> ...



I edited my post just before yours.

And here it is with 2 mics. Mind you, I can do more on my slave PC and I can do more on my Mac if I raise the buffer to 256.


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## pkm (Dec 12, 2014)

I believe you, Jay. And I also believe those who say PLAY doesn't work well for them. It's great that it works well for you, and it's unfortunately not great that it doesn't work well for other people.


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## Diffusor (Dec 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Diffusor @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> ...



Does it play back without odd glitches though? My cpu/asio usage would be low but the playback would have unexplainable glitches. I've seen numerous reports of "glitches" with the EW pianos too.

To be fair I haven't used PLAY since version 3 so maybe i will try the latest builds and see how they fair.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

pkm @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> I believe you, Jay. And I also believe those who say PLAY doesn't work well for them. It's great that it works well for you, and it's unfortunately not great that it doesn't work well for other people.



I don't deny that. But computers are not artistic, nor are OS, They are machines and if one machine can do something another seemingly equal cannot there ALWAYS is a scientific reason.

It can be:
1. Some software does not play nice with other software.
2. It is not set up in a way that works optimally.
3. It seems equal on the surface but when you find out the details it is not.

Here is what I can tell you SHOULD be true for EVERYONE:

1. If you have a powerful Mac with SSDs, you should be able to run a fair amount of HS, as I can,

2. If you have a powerful PC with SSDs, you should be able to run even more of HS, as I can.

3.If you have a powerful Mac or PC for your DAW and a slave that is a powerful Mac or even better a PC with SSDs, you should be able to run a lot of HS, as I can. A lot!

If you cannot, something is wrong on your system. NOT saying it is your fault. NOT saying your system is bad .I AM saying it should not be the case, because I have no magic powers and it is not true for me and these are just _machines_, and machines are capable of what the machines are capable of.

it is science, not art.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 12, 2014)

Diffusor @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > And once agin if you look at the most negative posts, the majority are by about 3-4 people who do so repeatedly, which gives the impression that there are more negative views than there are.
> ...



I am guessing you will not take me up on my offer? Why am I not surprised. And BTW, I also admitted that Play is not as efficient as Kontakt. i also said i don't care, as long as I can run what I need to run. Hell if efficiency was the sole measure, I would still be using all EXS24 as it blows Kontakt away in that regard.

OK, I guess I am done. If people read the first four pages of this tread, before the usual Play bashers jumped in, I think you get a fair cross section of the pros and cons. And as always, those who live in Los Angeles are welcome to come here and try things for themselves. I will show them whaI an run on my Mac and what I need a slave PC to run.

No tricks, no gimmicks, just it is what it is.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 12, 2014)

I think we can stretch this thread another couple of pages. o[])


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## Jason_D (Dec 12, 2014)

For hanging notes, here is what I do.

In Cubase, go to File > Key Commands under the 'MIDI' folder look for 'Reset'. Assign this a key command and every time there are hanging notes, hit the key command.


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## prodigalson (Dec 12, 2014)

> I think we can stretch this thread another couple of pages. munch



What a shock it is that a thread titled "The ostracizing of EW, taking the pulse on that one." would lead to this :wink: 

Honestly..I'm kinda surprised it took this long!


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## José Herring (Dec 12, 2014)

The pulse has morphed into beating the chest with a sledge hammer.

Bet some of us are wishing for the one word answers now. Sounds Online forum not lookin' too bad atm. At least they keep their answers to the point!


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## NYC Composer (Dec 12, 2014)

josejherring @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> The pulse has morphed into beating the chest with a sledge hammer.
> 
> Bet some of us are wishing for the one word answers now. Sounds Online forum not lookin' too bad atm. At least they keep their answers to the point!



True! :wink:


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## Hannes_F (Dec 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> Diffusor @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> ...



Fair offer, lame response imho. I know I would take that offer if needed.


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## marclawsonmusic (Dec 12, 2014)

I have used EW products since about 5 years now, starting with EWQLSO.

I had great experience running EWQLSO on a Mac, but my understanding is that Play performs better on a PC (I believe even Nick P said this before). So, I run the newer Play libraries on a PC (in VEPro). 

I still have the occasional crash and sometimes get hung notes too, but it is not prohibiting my work. I can get done what I need to get done. The libraries sound phenomenal and 'play' very well... at least under my fingers.

YMMV of course.


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## Daniel James (Dec 13, 2014)

Craig Sharmat @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Daniel we are going to request that you cool your jets in bad mouthing EW, your take rehashing this constantly is tiring. Jay has been given a timeout for similar behavior in the past and we don't like the incessant rehashing of similar complaints. We have to hold everyone to the same standards or lack thereof.



So in my defense here Craig. This thread is _specifically_ asking why East West gets such a bad rep. I'd like to think that my post was totally balanced and fair in answering the question, I both offered an answer supported both by facts and actual experience.

If this forum is to truly be an open discussion, one cant be threatening those who are expressing a genuine negative opinion with timeouts etc on a subject while at the same time allowing a paid employees to make post after post saying why said company and its products are the best things ever....and anyone who says different is either wrong or just bashing for the sake of it. 

Nothing I said in my post was bashing or rehashing for the sake of it. I directly answered a question, with examples. Just because i have shared the same opinion in similar themed threads doesn't make the complaints any less true and if I am to be timed out or banned for continuing to share it in RELEVANT threads then all you are doing is attempting to silence the legitimate negative opinion of the discussion which doesn't sound to open to me.

Oh and to the original poster: the fact that I even had to make a response like this to the forum moderators, defending my right to hold a legitimate negative view and not have it censored is ANOTHER reason why EastWest get a bad rep. You can search this forum alone for examples of people complaining they were banned or censored for saying anything remotely negative about them. (on the soundsonline forum)

-DJ


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## Craig Sharmat (Dec 13, 2014)

Daniel it is not about the content, you are entitled to your observation, it is the constant rehashing that you do here on this particular subject. You might decide to take Jay up on his offer, though he runs Logic, and after you hash it out with him and make a deal that either the suggested settings are misleading or maybe you get it to work better.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 13, 2014)

Daniel James @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> Craig Sharmat @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Daniel we are going to request that you cool your jets in bad mouthing EW, your take rehashing this constantly is tiring. Jay has been given a timeout for similar behavior in the past and we don't like the incessant rehashing of similar complaints. We have to hold everyone to the same standards or lack thereof.
> ...



+1. IMO DJ's post in no way required a warning. Over-censorship is a very touchy area, and it's to VI-C's credit that it only rarely has issues. The problem, Craig, is that Daniel's reply was entirely on topic. You can't try to censor someone for holding a consistent view on a subject which has been raised. It's pretty silly. I'd no more want or expect to see Daniel warned than Jay for defending EW. Daniel's post was not rude, answered the question, mentioned many positives too and spoke of his experiences. The OP - the very title - asks why EW have the reputation they have - you expect people with experience not to answer here just because they've answered a similar question before?

These threads always go the same way. Lots of people have had bad very experiences, and lots have had great experiences - the rest is inevitable.

FWIW, Play 4.1.8 was running great for me in VE Pro (and background loading really helped), but there was a problem for many of us with Cubase 7, which had clicks and pops even at rest. Cubase 8 is looking more stable though. Mac users have had a lot rougher time of it than PC in recent years it seems to me, but that may be better now, not quite sure (it's hard to keep track). Would love the ability to purge all samples and load on the fly.

I think Daniel's advice to dip your toe in the water, Valierie, is a good one, especially if you're a PC user - just see how you get on with it.


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## Daniel James (Dec 13, 2014)

Craig Sharmat @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> Daniel it is not about the content, you are entitled to your observation, it is the constant rehashing that you do here on this particular subject. You might decide to take Jay up on his offer, though he runs Logic, and after you hash it out with him and make a deal that either the suggested settings are misleading or maybe you get it to work better.



Thats exactly the point Craig. If my post is directly answering the point of the thread its not rehashing, its contributing to the discussion. 

I shall not be taking time out of my day to spend with Jay, unless he has a magic way to make the libraries load and stream at a useable rate without the use of an SSD or Slave machine (which are not required by minimum or recommended specs)...which was the main crux of my whole post. Why do EW have a bad rep? because their libraries run like ass for alot of people and when they mention that they meet the requirements, its somehow the customers fault.

And just again on the whole banning scenario here Craig, if you are willing to ban me for repeatedly making the negative argument against EW when it is relevant, then you must also have the same plan for those who argue equally hard and consistently in the positive. Not to do so is a serious bias in terms of open discussion. 

I already know Jay takes personal issue with me and considers me a "rank amateur" to put it in his own words. So I can't shake the feeling my singling out has a certain personal feel to it. If thats the case maybe those who have personal issue should just send me a PM where they can call me names again and leave this discussion legitimately open and unbiased, even from moderation.

-DJ


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 13, 2014)

Daryl @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Regarding the issue of resale. In a 2012 ruling the European Court deemed that regardless of any EULA, when a consumer buys a software product they are legally entitled to resell the software.
> ...



The ruling by the European Court means that games and game licences are re-sellable even if the EULA forbids resale.
Games have software programming and audio files that are triggered by the user, so how can this not apply to virtual instruments/sample libraries ?


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## sin(x) (Dec 13, 2014)

As someone who won't shut up when one of my pet peeves comes up either, I have to chime in and say that nothing about DJ's posts in this thread strikes me as even remotely deserving a ban threat. If this is meant to be a redundancy-free knowledge base, make it a wiki instead of a forum. People are discussing their opinions, and that goes either both ways or none.


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## AC986 (Dec 13, 2014)

OK Valerie you've read all of this.

This is why I don't have and EW products at all. Not a single one. When I hear the sound of EW through composed material it sounds good. But the seemingly inherent problem for Mac owners always comes up and I have kept away purely on the principle of accepting that there is an issue.

I don't think anyone here is saying you shouldn't go out and get EW sample libraries at all. There is just a certain consensus (that may well be a vast minority) that just allows a certain leaway for some to shy away from potential time saving issues.
It's not about the sound. It's about time.


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## Valérie_D (Dec 13, 2014)

sin(x) @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> As someone who won't shut up when one of my pet peeves comes up either, I have to chime in and say that nothing about DJ's posts in this thread strikes me as even remotely deserving a ban threat. If this is meant to be a redundancy-free knowledge base, make it a wiki instead of a forum. People are discussing their opinions, and that goes either both ways or none.



If anyone's to blame, I did feed it after midnight :D


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## sin(x) (Dec 13, 2014)

Valérie_D @ 2014-12-13 said:


> If anyone's to blame, I did feed it after midnight :D



BAN HER! :mrgreen:


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## Rv5 (Dec 13, 2014)

guitarman1960 @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> Daryl @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > guitarman1960 @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> ...



It had to go through the court proceedings for this to be decided and suspect it will need the same for vi/sample libraries. Someone would have to take a developer to court and have it ruled in their favour. It's a very expensive, lengthy process. If by the end of it though, it was ruled in the consumer's 'favour', then all developers would have to allow their software to be resold (after a ruling challenge probably). Some clever laywer could probably make a good argument for the software/sample integration. Some other clever laywer has probably made a good argument for samples not being software but short musical recordings. The 'one and the same' thing would be an interesting legal battle, if you're into that stuff....

Regarding the "Ostrasizing of EastWest" from the OP, it comes from different angles and for different reasons such as these:

EastWest are savvy on that law stuff, they sued Nick Phoenix: http://www.entlawdigest.com/2012/07/20/1650.htm https://twitter.com/c418/status/251204790279880704 and more on it here: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-c ... t-n-t.html

And also customer issues with Play, customer support, issues with the system specs, behaviour on the forum etc as listed above. That's enough customers to create somewhat of a furore regarding EastWest on forums.

Inconsistent and temperamental (badly programmed) software is suggested when people say it works great for them as it doesn't work for others.

DJ I feel for ya - as I said before I've had my fair share to say about this often repeating myself, but on the basis I thought it fair to inform others of events unfolded so they had a full picture before making their decision - I think this is fair context, given the OP asking about it.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 13, 2014)

I will only say that I was given a two week time out (or month, I don't remember) from the mods for re-hashing the same arguments multiple times, so rightly or wrongly, the mods are attempting to be consistent.

It probably did me some good. I seem to have to keep relearning that you rarely convince anyone the third time you write something that you did not the first two times.


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## AC986 (Dec 13, 2014)

Rv5 @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Sat Dec 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> ...



It's known as _setting a precedent._


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 13, 2014)

Rv5 @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Sat Dec 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> ...



I think that after that previous ruling you would stand a very good chance in court of getting a ruling in favour of the consumer. After all there is no reason that audio files cannot be re-sold, otherwise you couldn't resell music cd's. When you buy the product you are buying the software and the audio files and the licence to use them.
I believe so strongly in consumer rights that I'm going to look into this in a major way.


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## AC986 (Dec 13, 2014)

guitarman1960 @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> I believe so strongly in consumer rights that I'm going to look into this in a major way.



I think that's admirable and I totally agree. 

But I would also suggest this could be a _Bleak House_ moment and the temptation is to maybe let this particular area of consumer issues go.


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## dgburns (Dec 13, 2014)

Valérie_D @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> Hey Jay, Yes thank you so much for your help, I am really tempted to have a pc built but pc has never been my forte so if anyone has the answers to the 2 following questions, they are most welcome :
> 
> 1. What pc (with ssd drives) do you recommand? (any thread or link appreciated)
> 
> ...



I built a 2011 mobo with a lowly 4core intel with sata 3 ssd etc etc.Nothing special other than 64 gig of ram running win8.1 on a machine that was well under 2k,more like 1500 or so.you can go for a 1155 mobo with a 4core and 32 gig ram.The ssd's on sata 3 are important.Obviously run in VEPro to your main daw.
The thing to remember about all this rehashing and ad infinitum play bashing is that it would not exist if it weren't for the sounds.The East West libs have a good sound to them,and comparing them to others libs,I find BASED ON THE SOUND ONLY,that I use them when they get me the result I need/want.If they didn't,I'd have moved on a long time ago.I suspect the same is true for others.
I had no experience building pc's coming from a mac lineage,but have now built three from scratch with no issues at all.I mean none.If I can do it,you most certainly can as well.And I imagine if you run into a snag,many fine people here would help out,providing you are willing to get in there and learn what you need to ....

Play took some time to set up as I like.I spent a fair bit of time,likely due to the nature of the menus to get the project frames as I want.I just think any software deserves it's fair degree of time in on our part if one seeks to maximize it's potential.Once you have the projects set up,you can save channel sets,projects,and even metaframes ,so you have a large degree of flexibility,without ever having to menu dive again and change the entire setup rather quickly.

anyway,good luck


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## RiffWraith (Dec 13, 2014)

guitarman1960 @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> ....there is no reason that audio files cannot be re-sold, otherwise you couldn't resell music cd's. When you buy the product you are buying the software and the audio files and the licence to use them.



Exactly why the argument against resale of libs is a good one, and why the CD is different. 

When you buy a lib you are - as you stated - buying a licence to use the audio content. When you buy an audio CD, you are NOT buying a licence to use the audio content. In fact, you are specifically disallowed from doing so. Hence why the two are completely different.

Cheers.


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 13, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Sat Dec 13 said:
> 
> 
> > ....there is no reason that audio files cannot be re-sold, otherwise you couldn't resell music cd's. When you buy the product you are buying the software and the audio files and the licence to use them.
> ...



I do not get your point really. When you buy a Sample Library/Virtual Instrument you are not only buying a licence, you are buying the software and the audio files too. The three items make one product. The European Court has already ruled that software and licences can be resold, and everyone knows audio files can be resold. There is no real difference between a game that has software and custom created audio files that are triggered by the user, and music software that has custom created audio files triggered by the user. Aside from this there is the fact that it is blatantly obviously unfair to forbid someone the right to sell something they have purchased when they no longer require it, just to force everyone to buy new from the original manufacturer. The secondhand market in music gear enlarges the overall revenue pool of money spent. If you can recoup some of your investment when you want to upgrade or buy other gear then more money is entering the pool than otherwise. The only arguement in favour of no resale is greed by the original manufacturer.
Imagine if you could only buy Ford cars new from Ford or Strats new from Fender? Somehow trying to argue a special case for software instruments/sample libraries is totally wrong, they are a product like any other.


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## RiffWraith (Dec 13, 2014)

guitarman1960 @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> When you buy a Sample Library/Virtual Instrument you are not only buying a licence, you are buying the software and the audio files too.



No, you are not.

I wish not to get into yet another discussion about this, I was just trying make the point that when you buy a sample lib license, you are buying the right to USE the content. When you buy an audio CD, you are NOT buying the right to use the content. That's why the resale of an audio CD differs from that of a sample lib.

Cheers.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 13, 2014)

Maybe this is a separate topic?


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 13, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Sat Dec 13 said:
> 
> 
> > When you buy a Sample Library/Virtual Instrument you are not only buying a licence, you are buying the software and the audio files too.
> ...



You are NOT only buying a licence, you are buying the whole product which consists of the the software, the audio files and the licence.

Just because audio files are part of the product does not make them a special case that can't be resold. You buy the product for the purpose of making music. You buy a game for the purpose of entertainment. Both have software, graphics files and audio files and some games have a licence also. You cannot possibly say that its ok for game players to resell their products and licences but not ok for musicians!


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 13, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> Maybe this is a separate topic?



Hi Jay, yes, will start a separate thread tomorrow, this is not only about East West, I understand that.

Cheers :D


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## sin(x) (Dec 13, 2014)

guitarman1960 @ 2014-12-13 said:


> You cannot possibly say that its ok for game players to resell their products and licences but not ok for musicians!



I don't think your comparison works. The difference is that the samples stay a part of the composer's commercial offering after he sold them. If you license your music to a film producer and he uses it in his film, should he be allowed to then sell it off to the next producer when the film is done and released? Would it change things if you sent him your music on a CD?

As much as I tend to err on the side of consumer rights, I have to say that the “it's a non-transferrable license, not a tangible product” declaration doesn't sound all that far-fetched to me, legally speaking. Personally, I'm willing to accept it *on the condition* that the developer makes provisions to let me re-download the product anytime in exchange, or at least doesn't make a fuss about sending out free replacement media if mine somehow get damaged.

What strikes me as borderline illegal is having me to shell out extra cash to insure my dongles against damage or loss – you can't argue that I'm just buying a license and then artificially tie my ability to harness that license to the physical integrity of a flimsy piece of plastic that's entirely my liability if it breaks. That's having your cake and eating it too.


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## KEnK (Dec 13, 2014)

Craig Sharmat @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Daniel we are going to request that you cool your jets in bad mouthing EW, your take rehashing this constantly is tiring. Jay has been given a timeout for similar behavior in the past and we don't like the incessant rehashing of similar complaints. We have to hold everyone to the same standards or lack thereof.


craig-

i'm feeling a need to chime in here in support of DJ and against censorship in general-
as others have stated, DJ's post was neither antagonistic nor redundant 
and in fact he acknowledges the sounds are great- 
he just stated what many here have said.

It's a fair and honest q to the op.
If you censor DJ's post than you should censor the entire thread,
because nothing he said was any worse than the rest of it.

It's been said here that "some dev's" have threatened lawsuits against this forum in the past. 
Of course I've never known any more than that-
but you're reaction to DJ's post is so unnecessary that i now think it was likely EW that threatened these lawsuits. 
It is in their m.o. after all.

see what censorship gets you?
it never works

k


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 13, 2014)

I am the only person from EW dealing with this thread and I have no authority or inclination to threaten lawsuits.


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 13, 2014)

sin(x) @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> guitarman1960 @ 2014-12-13 said:
> 
> 
> > You cannot possibly say that its ok for game players to resell their products and licences but not ok for musicians!
> ...



I can see what you are trying to say, but still don't think that holds water. You buy the product for the purpose of making music with it. When you sell a piece of music to a film company or Ad Agency you are selling a piece of music you created not the component parts that went into the making of it. You are not buying a product which can only be used to create one piece of music that can only be sold once. If I buy a Custom Shop Strat and use it's sound on a commercial soundtrack, I can sell the Strat afterwards and do whatever I please. You are attempting to assume that there is something sacred about using a sample library for the purpose which it is manufactured, marketed as, sold as, and purchased for, i.e. a musical instrument. Software companies have taken advantage of loads of legal grey areas for too long because outdated legislation to protect consumers rights has taken a long time to catch up. It is now, at least in Europe starting to catch up. The European Court is soon to be looking at resale of E-books and other digital downloads. Eventually laws will change.
The European Court uses the right of 'first purchase' in which the original manufacturers right to sell the product is transfered to the first purchaser regardless of any EULA.


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## sin(x) (Dec 13, 2014)

guitarman1960 @ 2014-12-13 said:


> You buy the product for the purpose of making music with it. When you sell a piece of music to a film company or Ad Agency you are selling a piece of music you created not the component parts that went into the making of it.



From the point of view of our clients, our music is a component part in whatever _they're_ making, just like samples are a component part of what we're making.

I agree it can be construed either way, and I won't shed a tear in case courts end up favoring yours; I just think that the comparison with consumer products like games or music CDs is fallacious.


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## kitekrazy (Dec 13, 2014)

milesito @ Fri Dec 12 said:


> Yep, I got the lite patches in gold.



Do they say "lite" just like on a "lite" beer?


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 13, 2014)

kitekrazy @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> milesito @ Fri Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Yep, I got the lite patches in gold.
> ...



No you will see LT.


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## kurtvanzo (Dec 13, 2014)

Thank you VI for hosting this thread, so good! Jay, cinesamples has a class you can take where you learn to say things like "thanks for the comment, I'll let our developers know". That's all it takes, really. I own 300 instruments at this point and like EW sound but don't own one because of threads like this. If Doug and Nick from East West want to make real money, instead of dropping their prices Suggest to them that they hire a programmer from Cinesamples (it's not that expensive nowadays) to port EW sound into kontakt, pay the blasted fee, and then figure out how they will spend the boatloads of money that will pour in (yes, probably even from Daniel James). All this would stop and you will have saved the company. Now a good reply would be "thanks for the suggestion, I bring it up with them when I can". To which I reply "your welcome". Gee, things are changing at EW already.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 13, 2014)

kurtvanzo @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> Thank you VI for hosting this thread, so good! Jay, cinesamples has a class you can take where you learn to say things like "thanks for the comment, I'll let our developers know". That's all it takes, really. I own 300 instruments at this point and like EW sound but don't own one because of threads like this. If Doug and Nick from East West want to make real money, instead of dropping their prices Suggest to them that they hire a programmer from Cinesamples (it's not that expensive nowadays) to port EW sound into kontakt, pay the blasted fee, and then figure out how they will spend the boatloads of money that will pour in (yes, probably even from Daniel James). All this would stop and you will have saved the company. Now a good reply would be "thanks for the suggestion, I bring it up with them when I can". To which I reply "your welcome". Gee, things are changing at EW already.



Thanks for the comment . I will pass that on to Doug. (See, I'm a quick study

Look, IMHO talk is cheap. Reps and developers can come here and do that with you, sincerely or not.

I PROVE my commitment to you guys and to my job daily by working diligently to get your issues to the right people when you email them to me; by running tests to see if I can reproduce the issues myself; sometimes by surprising those of you in the US by calling you on the phone and trying to help; sometimes by setting up Skype time to help, as I am doing at 9:00 AM tomorrow morning with someone here.

Many of the people I have helped have been nice enough to come here and report that I did just that.

Actions speak louder than words. I work on your behalf with EW practically every day and I am sorry if some don't like that I am never disingenuous with you all. When I think you have made a good point or a good suggestion, I will happily say so and pass it on. When I think you have not, I will say so. I will not say a customer is right when I don't think they are and I work for a boss who does not expect me to. I simply cannot. That is who I am.


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## kurtvanzo (Dec 13, 2014)

Thanks Jay  Let him know some companies charge an extra fee when selling the instrument to cover the Kontakt costs, which is fine. Even if the Kontakt version was $50-$100 more, it would sell like gangbusters. Perhaps try one library first (can I suggest HS since it has the most difficulty in play and because it's the one I love , then if sales don't boon he can stop- but I think we all know it would blow up! All the best to you Jay, and thanks again.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 13, 2014)

kurtvanzo @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> Thanks Jay  Let him know some companies charge an extra fee when selling the instrument to cover the Kontakt costs, which is fine. Even if the Kontakt version was $50-$100 more, it would sell like gangbusters. Perhaps try one library first (can I suggest HS since it has the most difficulty in play and because it's the one I love , then if sales don't boon he can stop- but I think we all know it would blow up! All the best to you Jay, and thanks again.



You are quite welcome. (See my previous posts edit.)


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## kurtvanzo (Dec 13, 2014)

Got your edit late, apologies. For when EW is looking for new ideas for income then...

Doug could also make cash off of old, disgruntled users by offering a decent upgrade path to Kontakt. Let's say $100 for the first instrument and $50 for each additional (plus a bonus discount for updating a bundle). Some people who bought and don't use the libraries would be sending new cash to EW- that otherwise goes elsewhere- and be once again happy with the product- a Win-Win! I know it's hard for people to change positions, so thanks Jay for giving it a shot. Cheers.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 13, 2014)

kurtvanzo @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> Doug could also make cash off of old, disgruntled users by offering a decent upgrade path to Kontakt. Let's say $100 for the first instrument and $50 for each additional (plus a bonus discount for updating a bundle). Some people who bought and don't use the libraries would be sending new cash to EW- that otherwise goes elsewhere- and be once again happy with the product- a Win-Win! I know it's hard for people to change positions, so thanks Jay for giving it a shot. Cheers.



Thanks for your suggestions but EW is not going to go back to Kontakt. Simply is not going to happen.

Best,
Jay


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## kurtvanzo (Dec 13, 2014)

Sorry to hear that. Sounds like bad blood- bummer. Thanks for being honest and all the best in your work to keep people up and running.


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## jcrosby (Dec 13, 2014)

adriancook @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> It's not about the sound. It's about time.



Amen to that. o-[][]-o When working on TV or library cues time IS money.


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## marclawsonmusic (Dec 13, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> I PROVE my commitment to you guys and to my job daily by working diligently to get your issues to the right people when you email them to me; by running tests to see if I can reproduce the issues myself; sometimes by surprising those of you in the US by calling you on the phone and trying to help; sometimes by setting up Skype time to help, as I am doing at 9:00 AM tomorrow morning with someone here.
> 
> Many of the people I have helped have been nice enough to come here and report that I did just that.


I agree and thank you for what you do, Jay.


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## David Gosnell (Dec 13, 2014)

Sorry for the topic hijack...

But if any of you chaps who experience no problems with the Hollywood libraries have encountered sync issues (audio not aligning with the midi that was programmed, not delay, but random - on the beat, late, later, miss two, early etc.) and worked out a solution I'd love to hear it. I'm another who loved the demos and purchased strings and brass at full price but found they never make it to the final mix.

To be more constructive 'on topic' - I have experienced issues with Play which I've shared with users who have 'no problems' via midi files and they find they then experience the same issues. So in addition to the comments Jay made about system set up ( although I disagree that errors mean your system set up is 'wrong'. Having an incompatible plug-in isn't a mistake, you just need to choose which to stop using, which probably depends on whether you can find a compatible alternative - sadly I've never gone through the one-by-one test process to find out, as there has always been an acceptable Kontakt based alternative in my library and deadlines to hit) would also suggest trial demos are always a good idea dependent on the way you write ( not just for EW ). You can't judge any library before you see how it responds to what YOU ask of it.

Similarly, choosing a library based on demos is always a big risk. Firstly, the demo may deliberately avoid tasks where the library shows weakness and secondly you have no idea of the time, resources, tools and possibly even live instruments / private libraries that have been used to make everything sound wallet emptyingly perfect.

EW isn't a library that has worked out for me, but that is no reason to believe it won't work for you - but I would suggest the only way to know for sure is through trial and hopefully no error, so maybe don't jump in with the $1,000 purchase straight off.

Do they still do the Terradrive with the trial licences?


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## José Herring (Dec 13, 2014)

David, i would need to know yout setup,


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## David Gosnell (Dec 13, 2014)

josejherring @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> David, i would need to know yout setup,



If you're offering to help me out, I'd be very grateful - but if you're willing it would be best to take it off-line to avoid derailing this topic (if there is a solution, I'd be happy to report it back - it would be like getting two free libraries  ).

As a bass line for relevance to the topic I am referring to a DAW PC running Cubase 7.5 2.66 i7 24g RAM on Sata II SSD and a Slave PC via VEP 3.2 i7 64g RAM on Sata III (tried both, same result). The lower the latency, the less erratic the behaviour - however, the lower the latency the worse all my other tools run - so Play ends up as the one replaced by a Kontakt based alternative.

I would also echo the previous comment - time is often more crucial than sound. On the plus side, Play has become pretty stable these days, and probably now crashes less often than Kontakt (though that may not be fair as my template runs many more Kontakt instances). With VEP, loading times are also less of an issue - because I seldom unload during a project.


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## José Herring (Dec 13, 2014)

Pm me. I should be able to help


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## kitekrazy (Dec 13, 2014)

Well I got a killer string library for $250. I may not be able to run it full bore but I'm not one making money doing this. So I'm happy. 
I know people complain they pay a lot of money and the price drops. The game market is the same way. 
At one time most sample libraries were beyond the budget of the hobbyists. I remember the affordable libraries where Sonic Implant soundfonts that sounded horrible or sifting thru websites that had free soundfonts. My first real library was GOS Lite. 
Most sample developers have made an effort to break into the hobbyist market. It seems like a win situation for someone.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 13, 2014)

Yay, I knew we could keep it going!

Btw, yes please, no censorship. I agree that DJ has beat this into the ground a bit, but his answer is germane to the topic.

It's sort of odd for a company to have a paid representative answering all perceived unfairnesses. Most companies have bowed out of that game. Honestly, I think that's one of the drivers of these longish conversations.

A while back Guy ran a poll and there was a long discussion about whether posts in the Commercial sub forum should be carefully moderated for the benefit of advertisers. I thought that they should not be, but after some thought, I decided personally not to ever post negatively in a commercial thread. However, I truly think SampleTalk has to remain unfettered except in extreme cases- unless we want to also have positive, possibly fawning comments also heavily moderated.


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## germancomponist (Dec 13, 2014)

I too think that Daniel's post here is absolutely o.k.!


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## Casiquire (Dec 14, 2014)

+1 on Daniel's post being completely relevant to the topic. Also +1 for Jay tending to stay on-topic as well. Heavy-handed censorship will undoubtedly hurt this forum. It's no secret that I'm a big Audiobro fan. Why should I be worried that if someone posts a thread about string libraries I might get reprimanded for recommending LASS? When you ask a question here, you want to hear answers from people who feel passionate either one way or the other. Now if there was a thread about how great Sable is and I barged in there and said "LOL LASS is way better, derp" then that's a different story.

In any case I don't think the last two to three pages of this thread are actually still relevant to the original question anyway. To the OP, take the first post from each member in this thread and ignore the rest, and also ignore the moderator's unnecessary post, and you'll get a pretty good representation of peoples' feelings about EW. Some love them, some hate them.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 14, 2014)

Casiquire @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> +1 on Daniel's post being completely relevant to the topic. Also +1 for Jay tending to stay on-topic as well. Heavy-handed censorship will undoubtedly hurt this forum. It's no secret that I'm a big Audiobro fan. Why should I be worried that if someone posts a thread about string libraries I might get reprimanded for recommending LASS? When you ask a question here, you want to hear answers from people who feel passionate either one way or the other. Now if there was a thread about how great Sable is and I barged in there and said "LOL LASS is way better, derp" then that's a different story.
> 
> In any case I don't think the last two to three pages of this thread are actually still relevant to the original question anyway. To the OP, take the first post from each member in this thread and ignore the rest, and also ignore the moderator's unnecessary post, and you'll get a pretty good representation of peoples' feelings about EW. Some love them, some hate them.



Apologies, but I think it's less simple than that.

1. No one "loves" the interface. Play is not lovable. At its best, it's functional. At worst, not as efficient as many would like it to be, and much less flexible than Kontakt which, like it or don't, is the main sampler interface to much of the VI world.

2. Many people (myself included) love the sounds. We live with Play for that and one other reason:

3. The price of EW's libraries is generally very reasonable.

4. EW is not an interactive company as some are-in other words, if you are expecting a living, breathing library with new patches, added articulations, timely updates and fixes etc, EW is not for you. It's not how they roll. The product is generally WYSIWYG.

So, it's a puzzle. Yes, people love 'em and hate 'em, but with good reason. As I said earlier, I own many EW products and I get a lot out of them, but it's not a free lunch. Caveat emptor.


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## Craig Sharmat (Dec 14, 2014)

Casiquire @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> +1 on Daniel's post being completely relevant to the topic. Also +1 for Jay tending to stay on-topic as well. Heavy-handed censorship will undoubtedly hurt this forum. It's no secret that I'm a big Audiobro fan. Why should I be worried that if someone posts a thread about string libraries I might get reprimanded for recommending LASS? When you ask a question here, you want to hear answers from people who feel passionate either one way or the other. Now if there was a thread about how great Sable is and I barged in there and said "LOL LASS is way better, derp" then that's a different story.
> 
> In any case I don't think the last two to three pages of this thread are actually still relevant to the original question anyway. To the OP, take the first post from each member in this thread and ignore the rest, and also ignore the moderator's unnecessary post, and you'll get a pretty good representation of peoples' feelings about EW. Some love them, some hate them.



2 reasons
1.Daniel has posted negatively many many times on this.
2.He is a developer so general policy is developers have other motivations.

Now I am fairly sure in this case Daniel has no other business motivations as he has not developed a competing product but that was a policy we felt was most generally fair.


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## Daniel James (Dec 14, 2014)

Craig Sharmat @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> Casiquire @ Sun Dec 14 said:
> 
> 
> > +1 on Daniel's post being completely relevant to the topic. Also +1 for Jay tending to stay on-topic as well. Heavy-handed censorship will undoubtedly hurt this forum. It's no secret that I'm a big Audiobro fan. Why should I be worried that if someone posts a thread about string libraries I might get reprimanded for recommending LASS? When you ask a question here, you want to hear answers from people who feel passionate either one way or the other. Now if there was a thread about how great Sable is and I barged in there and said "LOL LASS is way better, derp" then that's a different story.
> ...



1. But surely its relevant in this thread? Not allowing someone to repeat a view on something, regardless of negativity, when relevant is tantamount to censorship...again meaning only the positive view gets clean air which is totally unfair to the person asking the question and goes against everything that an open discussion should be.

2. I have publicly held this view since long before I was a developer as I am sure you are aware. But again its relevant to the point. Had I gone into a commercial EW announcement or a totally unrelated topic then sure I can see the irritation but I honestly don't understand why a constant negative view is threatened with a ban and the paid employees positive views are absolutely fine. We have both stated and repeated our views, equally aggressively and consistently. If this is truly a fair and open discussion then both should be challenged for moderation equally.....not just the ones that paint a company that pays to advertise here in a justifiably bad light even when its completely relevant and directly answers the question asked. 

-DJ


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## TheUnfinished (Dec 14, 2014)

Is this in the forum rules?

Not wishing to sound facetious, but as someone who has become a developer as well as a composer (and there are a few now within the forum), are there rules about what we can and cannot say on VI?

Personally, I don't think I've ever seen one developer attack another in a calculated manner on here. Perhaps I'm being naive, or there are things you can see in the back-end of the site that suggest otherwise.

Also... and I know this is my personal bete noir... but threats of bans over non-insulting neagtive comments at a time when we've recently seen some fairly bigoted posts seems at best daft and at worst unpleasant.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 14, 2014)

All I can tell you D.J. is that when I made a rather benign comment bout another developer's product, I was banned for a period of time. 

So they are trying to be consistent.


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## rJames (Dec 14, 2014)

REgarding "the ostracizing of EastWest,"

EastWest makes great products, maybe the best. BUT... to the question.

They made a decision to make their own playback engine which is what derailed them, if you can say that there is an "ostracizing of EastWest."

Kontakt, as a playback engine, is a great product and had a major head start because of ingenious programmers. I think it can't be denied that it is the preeminent playback engine.

Play had a lot of problems in the beginning and was not nearly as efficient. Maybe especially on the Mac platform.

Me and a ton of other composers/VI users just stopped buying EW products because they were so inefficient.

I never went back. My template is mostly Kontakt based. I know it, I love it and so many developers create great products for it.

I still use a few products that are Play based; I have Silk and Stormdrum to name a couple.

So, my opinion is that EW ostracized themselves. Great products, no doubt.

Ron


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## Daniel James (Dec 14, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> All I can tell you D.J. is that when I made a rather benign comment bout another developer's product, I was banned for a period of time.
> 
> So they are trying to be consistent.



Well I can't speak to what you were banned for but was the post directly relevant to the original topic? was it a direct competitor to EastWest's library? 

To be honest you are representing one of the biggest sample library developers in the world, who competes DIRECTLY with other developers who post here. You can't treat our "benign comments bout another developer's products" as equal. If I say string library X is bad its not the same as if East West who also sell string libraries says the same thing. Notice since becoming a developer I have never once commented on nor reviewed a sound design sample library. 

-DJ


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 14, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> Also... and I know this is my personal bete noir... but threats of bans over non-insulting neagtive comments at a time when we've recently seen some fairly bigoted posts seems at best daft and at worst unpleasant.



Mine too.

There's been no support of Craig's warning in this thread (except a possible inference from Jay), and what seems like a great many in support of DJ's right to have made that perfectly reasonable and 100% on topic post.

If the developer thing is really an issue (something that was never mentioned in Craig's original warning of the subsequent post), it should be clarified and uniformly applied. All the warning has really done has infact further derailed the thread, proving once again that threats of bans are almost always counterproductive. IMO the exceptions should be for racism, homophobia, sexism etc and gross personal insults.

Well, on the bright side, Valerie - if you're still here - I think you probably have a pretty good handle now on the tortured history of this subject...


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 14, 2014)

Daniel James @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun Dec 14 said:
> 
> 
> > All I can tell you D.J. is that when I made a rather benign comment bout another developer's product, I was banned for a period of time.
> ...



That is not my call to make, but the mods. I was told that a developer commenting on another developer's products negatively is a no-no either way.


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## Stephen Rees (Dec 14, 2014)

Not taking sides, but the VI forum rules are set out here....

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3

Clause 7 may be the relevant one and is probably the one Craig is concerned about.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 14, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> Not taking sides, but the VI forum rules are set out here....
> 
> http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3
> 
> Clause 7 may be the relevant one and is probably the one Craig is concerned about.



If that is applicable for developers commenting on other developers in fields they do not cover, then that makes sense - but (again) this wasn't anything Craig mentioned in his original warning, and hence the widespread support for Daniel.


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## khollister (Dec 14, 2014)

While I believe the issue of whether Daniel's comments about EW violate the forum's terms of use is the business of the management, I will say I found the personal comment about Jay (regardless of whether it is true or not) in Daniel's second post alarming. I believe there is considerable latitude for disagreement about products & technique, but taking the argument personal is a very dangerous precedent. Fortunately, everyone else left that alone but if there was going to be a time-out, that would be the reason in my mind. But that's not my call either.

What I personally find disappointing about most of these EW threads isn't the enumeration of pro's and con's or even the personal opinions based on facts, but the tendency for some to take every opportunity to rail against EW in some sort of apparent vendetta. The fact that some of these rants are based on experiences several years old put them into the category of revenge rather than useful feedback to potential EW customers.

I am not advocating censorship, but these type of threads do reduce the signal-to-noise ratio for those just looking for information or assistance rather than a venue for retribution in the form of trying to deny EW as many future customers as possible.

I would feel exactly the same regardless of which company or product was under discussion. While it may be satisfying for a few participants as a form of catharsis, it offers no utility to the forum at large and frankly doesn't come across as very professional. It's like the UAD threads over on Gearslutz - they all degenerate into tantrums as well about why UA won't go native. They aren't, so get over it - screaming about it on the internet won't make one bit of difference.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 14, 2014)

I am not speaking as a moderator here, just expressing my personal opinion:

Daniel James, most of us have seen your video review of Hollywood strings and how it did not work. It was a disaster.

However the OP is asking asking about the usability of East West products from the viewpoint of today. Therefore I feel anybody (not just you) commenting on that question should bury the old stories and ask himself whether he or she has an opinion that is currently valid. 

IMO that should include: Current midrange computer setup, newest software version, and in case of problems the EW support or Jay Asher should have had the chance to rule out avoidable conflicts etc.. Once that is done in a fair way and there are still problems then it would be fair to inform newbies about it. But in the case somebody should have stopped using a software product years ago and still harps on and on that leaves a taste of hurt expectations and revenge but is not an accurate advice about the reality of today.

The above applies to everybody. However there is something more.

EW have not been the nicest guys on the planet. It is highly probably that any developers working in the scene, even if their products are not in direct competition, have had their behind the doors experiences with them. Your posts, Daniel, have a certain vibe about them that, even if not expressed explicitly, speaks quite clearly. However if the original question is about the actual state of their products then nothing else should be relevant.

Again, that is my personal opinion.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 14, 2014)

Censorship would be shutting down the thread. That's not at all what happens here.


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## José Herring (Dec 14, 2014)

Anything that stops DJ from endless post about how HS doesn't work on his 2008 macpro, is censorship I can live with


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## KEnK (Dec 14, 2014)

If you re-read Valerie's original q-
people's individual experience's w/ the company over time are a relevant answer.

The past behavior of any company or product is relevant to anyone considering
purchasing that product.

This is something I consider when I buy anything.
It's simply being an informed consumer.

Do I trust Toyota now as much as I did 15 years ago?
No. 
Did they fix the brake's and airbags?
Sure-
But that is irrelevant to how much confidence I've lost in that particular company.

EW worked very hard to build the ship they're sailing on.
There are relevant valid reasons for all the disparaging commentary many wish would just go away.

k


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## nadeama (Dec 14, 2014)

Hi all,

I've been away from the forum and from making music for a few years now, and I choose this thread for my comeback post. I like to do things in style. :mrgreen: 

I've read a few times now that Play is more efficient on PC than on the Mac. Is that mainly due to the lack of SATA 3 on older Macs? If so, I guess this could help (assuming you have an available PCIe slot):

http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/SSD/PCIe/OWC/Mercury_Accelsior/RAID

Or is there something inherently inefficient with Mac OS X?


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## Casiquire (Dec 14, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sun 14 Dec said:


> Apologies, but I think it's less simple than that.



It is EXACTLY as simple as that. "Take the first post from each member...." Everyone answers the OP's question in their first post and then comes back to argue some more in additional posts.

As for the comment that, from a developer's standpoint, there might be some other motives at play, I suppose that's fair so perhaps sending a private message about it would avoid potential damage to the forum's image. When I think of Daniel James, I don't think "DEVELOPER" I think "Daniel". Though I suppose you have reasons for doing things the way you do ;o)


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## Fleer (Dec 14, 2014)

nadeama @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've been away from the forum and from making music for a few years now, and I choose this thread for my comeback post. I like to do things in style. :mrgreen:
> 
> I've read a few times now that Play is more efficient on PC than on the Mac.



Stylish. Stylish 
As for the Mac-PC-divergence, would like to know too. What makes EW instruments more efficient on PC?


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## CathodeRay (Dec 14, 2014)

I bought Complete Composers Collection two years ago as a total newbie (vi's not MIDI). I've been very happy with the sounds and Play is not a deal breaker to me. It never crashes, except sometimes while loading. Sometimes the Master reverb doesn't work as expected on the slave instruments. I mentioned this in Play 2. It still happens in Play 4. Loading times have drastically increased in Play 4 despite the background loading "feature," which is not really a feature as you cannot really do anything until it's all done anyway. 

Ambiance cannot be eliminated in the short articulations like staccato, and this has become a problem in mixes. But I only have the stage mic, not the close mic. So I would have to upgrade to get the other mics. Or maybe try VSL. Or Hollywood samples. I don't know. Loading times with Play 4 are 15+ minutes as it is. Again, not a deal breaker, but an irritant.

But EW tech support rubs me the wrong way, and it's unfortunate. I worked in customer service for many years and I tip my hat to good service whenever I get it. But my issues with EW have been D-level, sometimes F-Level! Response times of a month or sometimes NEVER, are unacceptable. 

I may try Hollywood Strings, maybe LASS and maybe VSL. We'll see.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 14, 2014)

Casiquire @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun 14 Dec said:
> 
> 
> > Apologies, but I think it's less simple than that.
> ...



We'll agree to disagree....or at least, I'll agree to disagree with you  The part I disagreed with as to simplicity in your post was "some love 'em, some hate 'em." There are reasons, and I tried to articulate them more cogently.


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## Nick Phoenix (Dec 14, 2014)

For the heavy ORC stuff you need a PC with SSD. PLAY runs great on a good PC. Better than Kontakt IMO, but more memory hungry, so a trade off. I don't make EW policy and have no excuses for anything that has happened over the years. Nor was I in agreement of many policies. But after all of it, one fact does remain. Play libraries are still Not cracked. That means that PLAY libraries are probably outselling everything else.

I respect all the opinions here and I believe in Karma. But I will say this, Daniel James is a God.

In



His




own








Mind


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## NYC Composer (Dec 14, 2014)

Nick Phoenix @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> For the heavy ORC stuff you need a PC with SSD. PLAY runs great on a good PC. Better than Kontakt IMO, but more memory hungry, so a trade off. I don't make EW policy and have no excuses for anything that has happened over the years. Nor was I in agreement of many policies. But after all of it, one fact does remain. Play libraries are still Not cracked. That means that PLAY libraries are probably outselling everything else.
> 
> I respect all the opinions here and I believe in Karma. But I will say this, Daniel James is a God.
> 
> ...




Classy.


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## Fleer (Dec 14, 2014)

CathodeRay @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> I worked in customer service for many years and I tip my hat to good service whenever I get it. But my issues with EW have been D-level, sometimes F-Level! Response times of a month or sometimes NEVER, are unacceptable.



Strange, Ray, I recently had a completely opposite experience (and posted about it in a separate thread). EW customer service was absolutely great. And prompt. Not even a day between query and solution. Repeatedly. Maybe they got better since your experience a few years ago? I'm a very happy EW customer and their service now is as good as their instruments IMO. Clearly when something's good it deserves to be told.


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## StatKsn (Dec 14, 2014)

nadeama @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've been away from the forum and from making music for a few years now, and I choose this thread for my comeback post. I like to do things in style. :mrgreen:
> 
> ...



I'm not very experienced with Play OSX, but from a few reports I read the problem is mostly coming from software, not hardware. Sometimes it's related to a real-time antivirus running, sometimes it's DAW setup that for some reason conflicting with Play engine, sometimes it's just not working (pops/clicks or irregularly long loading time). Overall it is a mystery.

Couple things I'm aware of, which maybe related to their problem, are:

1. Play is buffer size sensitive, can generate artifacts when the buffer size is uneven with the host
2. Its multiprocessor support is a bit questionable or it doesn't really support multiprocessors, which causes false spikes in the internal CPU meter, therefore killing voices erroneously.
3. Some hosts (Vienna Ensemble?) may conflict with it under certain conditions

Also I can't attest in a scientific way that Play is better (in what terms?) than Kontakt, if not worse, since the latter is inherently much lighter on disk access as Kontakt nowadays employs .ncw lossless encoding. Plus Kontakt has true background loading. KSP can cause slowdowns, though.


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## Fleer (Dec 14, 2014)

Anybody ever tried Play with Bitwig on Mac?


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## CathodeRay (Dec 14, 2014)

Fleer @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> CathodeRay @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I worked in customer service for many years and I tip my hat to good service whenever I get it. But my issues with EW have been D-level, sometimes F-Level! Response times of a month or sometimes NEVER, are unacceptable.
> ...



How nice for you. Please post the link to the wonderful service you received.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 14, 2014)

Well if someone files a support ticket and they get no response in a reasonable amount of time, they certainly should email it to me to try to get help. That is the part of my job that I like best.


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## CathodeRay (Dec 14, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> Well if someone files a support ticket and they get no response in a reasonable amount of time, they certainly should email it to me to try to get help. That is the part of my job that I like best.



Jay, do you realize how foolish you sound? Why don't you and EW get your customer service act together so that it won't be necessary for you to throw sand in the eyes of your customers to fool them into thinking that they are getting customer service?


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 14, 2014)

There are a lot of people here who can vouch for the fact that when response was slow, I was able to expedite it. If saying that I am proud of my role in that and that I enjoy it that makes me look foolish in your eyes I will just have to live with it somehow.


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## jcrosby (Dec 14, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> Nick Phoenix @ Sun Dec 14 said:
> 
> 
> > For the heavy ORC stuff you need a PC with SSD. PLAY runs great on a good PC. Better than Kontakt IMO, but more memory hungry, so a trade off. I don't make EW policy and have no excuses for anything that has happened over the years. Nor was I in agreement of many policies. But after all of it, one fact does remain. Play libraries are still Not cracked. That means that PLAY libraries are probably outselling everything else.
> ...



SERIOULSY. That's the kind of PR that sells itself


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## David Gosnell (Dec 15, 2014)

I always find it fascinating that the inevitable slide of EW threads into the off-topic personal insult playground successfully avoids the discussion of the real-world performance of the products. Can never quite decide whether the internet just prefers opinions to facts, or that Patrick Jane is skilfully misdirecting the suggestible...


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## Daniel James (Dec 15, 2014)

Ffs I make an honest assessment of my experience with a fucking sample library and it comes down to name calling. Its pathetic, really. Notice the speed of the mods when I say something about EW, then the lack therof when its an attack personally on me. 

@ josejherring, my Mac Pro runs more than great with everything else other than PLAY. My set up more than surpasses what is required on the specs so was it really necessary to chime in with that? Other than to add to the slight ganging up here just because I shared my experience with a sample library.

And no Nick I don't think I am god, or anything close to it. I, unlike a few here, like to hold an open and unbiased view on everything....I mean if you read my original post here I said what I both LIKED and disliked.....lets not forget I also have really positive opinions on other things you guys have done...as much as to do a glowing video overview but those all seem to be forgotten when I hold a negative view. 

I used to love VI and its open and usually fair discussions but these days it seems like people are 'putting a line in the sand', 'choosing sides' and if you are on the opposite side you are ganged up on until only the positive voice remains. Have some fucking objectivity. I honestly dont mind if you hold a different view or experience but dont start acting like I insulted your first born or something. Grow up and stop taking personal offense to things that aren't about you as a person.

-DJ


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## jcrosby (Dec 15, 2014)

*Kontakt and Play's CPU comparison under OSX.* These screenshots are from within the past week. It's not meant to be antagonistic, it's based solely on system reports, nothing more… 

Each VEP was setup up in the same fashion. For the results below here's what I'm running on:

*12 Core Mac Pro, 64 GB RAM, OSX 10.8.5 Mountain Lion. *

Play is spread across 2 SSD's - one is a PCIe OWC accelsior E2. I've benchmarked it averaging around 780 MB/sec read time. The second is a 1TB Crucial M550 (on a PCIe SSD adapter allowing for SATA III performance) with 475 MB/sec Read time. Between the two drives I have Play spread across that gives me a rough* average of 1.25 Gigabytes of date read per second.* (I.E. I have been meticulous in choosing peripherals for this machine that work around the pre-2014 Mac Pro SATA II issue.) 

My Kontakt library is spread out between 2 SSDs, 1 SATA III and 1 SATA II, no RAID. 

All "claims" by EW that OSX's read issues are due to (Aluminum tower Mac Pros) having only SATA 2 slots are not relevant to these stats as I'm reading data beyond a GB per sec when using Play.

Here are my results:

This is *approximately 100 Play instruments weighing in between 5 and 5.5 GB of RAM* spread over 2 instanced of Vinenna Ensemble Pro. Vienna ensemble Pro is Idling, i.e. no MIDI is being received. You can see *Activity monitor shows 587 % CPU use and 288 threads* (which is astronomical to put it very, very politely.) *VEP's CPU meter shows an idle between 45 and 55%* - just sitting there by itself routed to Logic, receiving no MIDI.







*This is approximately 225 Konatkt instruments weighing in at roughly 29-30 GB. CPU idle in Activity monitor shows 125 %, 187 threads. VEP's CPU meter shows an idle between 10 and 14%.* Once again just sitting there connected to, but not receiving MIDI from Logic.






*Play is actually using less midi ports and channels, and each use the same amount of audio outs. No preferences were changed in either scenario, I just loaded pre-existing VIFrames. As a result Play is technically given a dramatic advantage on all fronts; RAM, instrument count, MIDI channel count…

Both VIFrames are set up the same way, 2 instances of VEP with a max of 8 Midi ports

So the end result is this - 5 to 6 times the memory in Kontakt ; 2.25 times as many instruments (and midi channels) = 100 less threads and 4 to 5 times less CPU use idling with Kontakt. In use the difference is even more dramatic. Kontakt performing smoothly, Play struggling.

Finally, load times are still 10 + minutes with Play; approximately 5 minutes with Kontakt, at 5-6 times the data. (Once again Play is given the advantage because there are only 2 of the 12 Kontakt libraries located on the 780 MB/sec PCIe SSD. All other Kontakt libraries read at either 475 MB/sec, or SATA II speeds. Kontakt should take 35 to 45 minutes by that standard if data reading is the only thing in question here. (And to be clear, I was using equally aggressive patches in Konatkt, legatos, portamentos, etc.)*

This aint a grudge, it's just a raw system report ...

The proof is in the pudding fellas… Play is drastically inefficient next to Kontakt. And with Kontakt being the only viable competitor with such libraries, there really is no other comparison to make. 

The claims of user error feel perhaps a little insulting (once again, keeping it polite  ) when the hard data shows that Play is simply inefficient, even when given a dramatic advantage. 

The reality is whether it's Play's code, EW's sample encryption, or whatever the source; something is stealing CPU resources at a ridiculous rate with Play compared to kontakt. At least on the Mac (although I personally suspect similar benchmarks on PC would still show a fairly large difference between the two formats.)

There's no logical reasons for Kontakt to do roughly 3 times the work with 4 to 5 times efficiency other than the software itself. 

And if the OS is allegedly the source of issues, than how come Konatkt is equally as efficient across both platforms? It simply does not make sense fellas...

For EW: You guys wouldn't need to put out fires like this online if you just shelled out the money and hire a developer who can re-write Play's code, encryption, fix the bugs, or whatever it is that is causing a very easy to illustrate bottleneck. Tons of top tier companies publicly list the 3rd party companies they bring onboard to like softube, brainworx etc to crack these kinds of riddles for obviously smart reasons. Some guys are more brilliant writing code than others. NI has managed to crack the riddle of OSX and Windows. Maybe it's time you guys did as well. 

I commend Jay's effort for going out of his way with some people here, it's pretty great. But it still does not address the real issue, Play has inherent performance bugs that a quick search on here, as well as this thread illustrate this time and again...

And regarding Nick's comment about Play's security… So Play hasn't been cracked. That's great, for you guys!!! For the user? 100 percent irrelevant and comes across as bolstering. It serves nothing to fix performance issues.

And for the record, this is no grudge match for me, I've only been using Play for a little over a month. But I'm not particularly happy with it if it isn't already obvious… 

And DJ's right. I've watched his review on Spaces and it was nothing short of complimentary. That does not sound like a grudge IMO...


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## Nick Phoenix (Dec 15, 2014)

I was just having some fun. Not that it isn't true I know it is. But you can say the same thing about me. Group hug？


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## StatKsn (Dec 15, 2014)

Thanks so much *jcrosby* for the best VI mythbusting read of the year and your "geekiness" 8) e.g. no intangible unscientific words like "it does (not) work here" (which unfortunately is prevalent in this forum).

Why is Play in Mac eats so much CPU when it's idling, by the way? Scripts running in background, silently processing a big empty buffer, or else...?

Edit: Okay, I fired up 30 empty Play 4 instances in FL Studio x64 and the CPU meter skyrocketed to 20-23% @ 3930k. 30 empty Kontakt 5 instances shown roughly 10-12% CPU usage. So regardless of platform, Play apparently has "idling issue".


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## Daniel James (Dec 15, 2014)

Nick Phoenix @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> I was just having some fun. Not that it isn't true I know it is. But you can say the same thing about me. Group hug？



If that was aimed at me then totally, I am all for things being cool with everyone! Hugs all round.

-DJ


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## NYC Composer (Dec 15, 2014)

Daniel James @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Ffs I make an honest assessment of my experience with a [email protected]#king sample library and it comes down to name calling. Its pathetic, really. Notice the speed of the mods when I say something about EW, then the lack therof when its an attack personally on me.
> 
> @ josejherring, my Mac Pro runs more than great with everything else other than PLAY. My set up more than surpasses what is required on the specs so was it really necessary to chime in with that? Other than to add to the slight ganging up here just because I shared my experience with a sample library.
> 
> ...



This has been an open discussion. Fair is in the eye of the beholder. You got a lot of support in this thread, including from me- why take the negative aggrieved tone about the forum? Suggestion-address the comments you find objectionable and try to take the high road when it comes to generalizations.


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## jcrosby (Dec 15, 2014)

Thanks @StatKsn. I just want the damned thing to work!  Honestly? I'd love to see someone become an alternative to NI. Diversity is a great thing. But it won't be happening without a little humility and admitting there are some bugs that need to be squashed on their part. 

I stayed away from Play for years because of threads like this, and now that I jumped in the Play pool I see the complaints are legit… even on a pretty damn serious machine.

As with many others on here, despite my frustration with Play I think Spaces is a home run… it isn't all frustration...


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## José Herring (Dec 15, 2014)

That's the point and why these discussions are so irritating. It's long been established that Play is more efficient on PC. It's also been established that Play is less efficient than Kontakt. 

So what's the point? 

Those of us that have taken the "high road" have moved beyond this and have realized, OK, if you want to use HS you have to do certain things with your setup to make it work right. That's just the way it is. If you're unwilling to do these things then use something else.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 15, 2014)

josejherring @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> That's the point and why these discussions are so irritating. It's long been established that Play is more efficient on PC. It's also been established that Play is less efficient than Kontakt.
> 
> So what's the point?
> 
> Those of us that have taken the "high road" have moved beyond this and have realized, OK, if you want to use HS you have to do certain things with your setup to make it work right. That's just the way it is. If you're unwilling to do these things then use something else.



The point is the OP asked for opinions.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 15, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > That's the point and why these discussions are so irritating. It's long been established that Play is more efficient on PC. It's also been established that Play is less efficient than Kontakt.
> ...



And also that on the soundsonline site the listed specs do not reflect the wisdom of the crowd here. People only tend to find out about it when they go running to forums when they get into trouble, and hence the whole resentment thing. All the while the official website that sells you HS Diamond says this



> MAC RECOMMENDED SYSTEM
> Mac Pro Quad-Core Intel Xeon 2.66GHz or higher
> 8GB RAM or more
> 7200 RPM or faster (non energy saving) hard drive for sample streaming
> 310GB free hard drive space / iLok Security Key (not supplied)



Threads like these will continue to exist. I know this subject has come up before (so why bother mentioning it again, eh?) and it's been brought to Doug's attention, and he's happy with that wording so that presumably is that. Mac folks will buy in all good faith with 7,200 drives thinking their system more than meets the minimum reqs and in fact is their reccommended setup. Ok, it's not "optimal" but that suggests faster loading etc, not the basic ability to stream without clicks.

Those of us old lags here forget that not everyone hangs on every post on this forum. Valerie asked the question in her op in all good faith, and I'd bet she's already a lot more clued up than many newcomers to the world of VIs.


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## David Gosnell (Dec 15, 2014)

Although I can understand a conflict of interest between allowing open debate and the desire to generate advertising revenue (or demo writing / free product gigs), shouldn't independent forums be a place where customers can hold vendors feet to the fire in the hope their products will continue to improve?

If the products don't improve, does that mean customers should give up and stop banging on about it? How many campaigns for equality legislation only succeeded after years of what sometimes seemed fruitless voices in the wilderness? Maybe it is healthy to see ongoing 'old chestnuts' as a sign that users care and want the products to improve rather than that dismissing their views on the grounds that they derive some kind of perverse pleasure from criticising vendors who appear to choose not to listen?

In censorship terms, I think the only areas for supervision should be off-topic (yeah I know, this post is off topic  ) and personal abuse. So long as everyone discloses conflicts of interest (including moderators) they should be allowed to put whatever points they wish - if they are talking bollocks then there will be plenty of people here to put the alternative case.

If Vendors don't like criticism from other vendors - then a forum has to choose which side they are on, otherwise you get into Sound On Sound territory, where a reliance on advertising revenue determines that product reviews become meaningless and uninformative fawning.


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## jcrosby (Dec 15, 2014)

josejherring @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> That's the point and why these discussions are so irritating. It's long been established that Play is more efficient on PC. It's also been established that Play is less efficient than Kontakt.
> 
> So what's the point?
> 
> Those of us that have taken the "high road" have moved beyond this and have realized, OK, if you want to use HS you have to do certain things with your setup to make it work right. That's just the way it is. If you're unwilling to do these things then use something else.



The point is my opinion of it isn't stellar, which is ultimately the core of this thread; why is there consistent ostracization... 

I thought I'd illustrate said opinion by analyzing what my system says vs just emotionally saying I love it or hate it. 

Personally I don't consider paying a premium price and accepting poor performance at a difference ratio approaching 20 to 1 as the high road. That's fine if you do but I typically see that as accepting complacency. As a composer we aren't content accepting complacency in our craft. IMO, and it's opinion only, accepting it with the tools (that don't come cheap) is no different.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 15, 2014)

jcrosby @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > That's the point and why these discussions are so irritating. It's long been established that Play is more efficient on PC. It's also been established that Play is less efficient than Kontakt.
> ...



I'll argue with one point (hell, it seems obvious I'd argue with a rock :wink: )-my final price on HS Gold (Silver plus upgrade) was around $250. It's power-demanding, but I use the light patches and still think they sound great. I'd have to say I think that's pretty darn cheap. That's the draw for a lot of folks.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 15, 2014)

jcrosby @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> *Kontakt and Play's CPU comparison under OSX.*



Thanks jcrosby. _That _was a classy post, backed with up to date evidence. Everybody can weight the pros and cons (hardware costs vs. software/library costs) on that base for himself or herself.

As for the censoring talk, I don't get it. Nothing was edited or deleted in this thread as far as I know. Every note about possible problems was given in public.


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## woodsdenis (Dec 15, 2014)

Over moderation of a benign post just inflames the situation and only serves to polarise. Why not pm him and make that point, rather than publicly.

A similar thread about the perception of a different sample dev caused the same reaction by simply mentioning a popular EDM genre. 

If mods have a problem close the thread , not try to silence legitimate views with threats of banning, that just makes matters worse. Wether EW agree or not there is a lot of negative comment about them on the net, and not all from one source. I have a couple of their libraries for PT Structure and they were fine for the time.

I don't have an opinion about Play on a Mac because I haven't used it but let's be honest it's rep isn't stellar, who are we kidding here. Check out the stats on previous page, or are they all made up ? Are EW really saying none of this is justified and the work of DJ and some kind of conspiracy of developers to undermine them?


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## Daniel James (Dec 15, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> jcrosby @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> ...



Yup, much more acceptable at the lower price. I picked up Hollywood Brass Gold when it got to the cheap price. I only ever use it if I need something specific that I like in the tone of HB like the solo fHorn. But because o the reasons I have stated previously I have to freeze or bounce down the part. Like I said in my first post on this topic, I totally recommend getting one of the cheaper end libs and seeing how much and well PLAY integrates with your system. If its fine then get the more expensive ones. 

-DJ


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## Hannes_F (Dec 15, 2014)

David Gosnell @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Although I can understand a conflict of interest between allowing open debate and the desire to generate advertising revenue



So you are indicating that we moderators are in this thread because of the many ads that EW does in this forum? Or the enormous amount of libraries they donated for the fundraiser?

Pleeze ... count again. Zero, nada, nothing. Please think before you post such suggestions.



woodsdenis said:


> Over moderation of a benign post just inflames the situation and only servers to polarise. Why not pm him and make that point, rather than publicly.



We are testing now and then what works and what not. But one thing is for sure: We'll get flak in any case, no matter what we do. Even the slightest suggestions, given in the ever politest way, joking, applying to common sense or whatever, whether open or private, regularly lead to replies that say a combination of four things: "But I am right and X is (or you are) wrong", "Why do you go after me and not after the other one?", "You go after me because you are corrupt and have been bought by X", "I'll cancel my membership". There have been very few notable exceptions from, but not many. Then after a while those strong feelings calm down and some of the persons even come to a certain insight.

The funny thing is, that if there are two parties that we try to calm down then each accuses us for being biased towards the other one. o[])

So as I say, we get this sort of reaction anyways, no matter whom we adress and why and how. The ability for self critisism is a rare breed. Instead a storm in the teapot all the time, and lots of self justification.

BTW I would love to test the gearslutz version some time because there threads are sailing quite smoothly, and without backtalking, go figure. _Then _we could talk about over moderation. But the other moderators won't let me


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## G.R. Baumann (Dec 15, 2014)

Mr. Phoenix,

it is absolutely not acceptable to publicly dish out ad hominem attacks and then cover them up with 'Oh, I was just having a bit of fun'.

I give a flying Bull about the history and details of all those EW related turmoils, however it appears that this is going through some form of 'cyclical regeneration' ever so often.

@ Daniel,

Beware of group hugs as they are likely a major cause for distributing nasty bugs. :wink: fwiw. I value your mostly no nonsense opinions that you offered on many products, calling a spade a spade might be best to describe the attitude.

@Valerie,

Personally, I stay clear of sample library engines with a reputation of being unpredictable and slooooow in loading. If you feel that this particular library is giving you so many benefits to your current creation process, then I would echo Daniel's advice and test the waters first. 

Who know's, asking doesn't hurt, perhaps the gents over at EW are willing to offer you a test period for a select set of their products that are on your radar. If it works out for you, fine, if the stuff is clogging your system and workflow, you can uninstall everything and return it.


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## Daniel James (Dec 15, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> David Gosnell @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Although I can understand a conflict of interest between allowing open debate and the desire to generate advertising revenue
> ...



I understand you are in the shittiest position when this stuff comes up, and I agree the bickering does happen alot here. There are plenty of mine which probably could have gone the gearslutz route. Although the issue is that my first two posts which were directly answering the original question were threatened with a time out. The way it went was:

Person A says library works because.....

Person B says library DOESNT work because.....

Lets threaten to time out person B.

Thats how it went. I didn't say anything that wasn't relevant to the question being asked and thats how it felt a bit like censorship. 

-DJ


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## woodsdenis (Dec 15, 2014)

@Hannes, I agree with you , damned if you do, damned if you don't , and it's a fluid process ultimately. May I suggest that before a single mod threatens a time out publicly that it should at least be discussed with others. It was undoubtably heavy handed.

The Nick Phoenix "joke" was pretty pathetic too, far more offensive than talking about slow loading in Play. IMHO of course.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 15, 2014)

@ Daniel, I am speaking from a personal point of view now, although I have some EW Hollywood silver libraries I never dared to upgrade to gold or diamond, and particularly because of your video then and the opinion you expressed in this forum several times. So you see your opinion has quite some impact and there certainly is responsibility connected to it.

When searching up these posts I see that you were running an 8core MacPro with 8Gigs of RAM then (figure from 2012). Is this still your system now if I may ask? How current is your information?


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## David Gosnell (Dec 15, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> David Gosnell @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Although I can understand a conflict of interest between allowing open debate and the desire to generate advertising revenue
> ...



I don't recollect referring to EW specifically - my comments related to the subject of censorship. My point was that just as vendors have conflicts of interest so do members and so do moderators ( in some cases). My point is that declaration of conflict of interest should be a forum rule. If anyone who is in receipt of free exposure, free product or actual cash from vendors participates in a relevant thread they should declare their interest just as vendors or their employees should.

My point about advertising was, that should a vendor threaten to withdraw their sponsorship because they don't like what is being posted ( and I seem to recollect that in this thread is was confirmed that the example quoted was not EW, as it was Jay's comments that were targeted) then VI-C has a conflict of interest that would need to be carefully considered.

I didn't suggest this thread has been overly moderated due to a reliance on EW advertising revenue, I seem to remember Jay at one point stating that EW sees VI-C as a promotional opportunity for start-ups, and irrelevant to EW commercially, I did suggest that full disclosure of conflict of interest was a better option than gagging vendors, and that issuing warnings about repetition was simply a symptom of a vendor's unwillingness to listen.

Anyhoo, I'll promise to think about what I post if you promise to read it properly before you throw me back a dismissive and patronising facepalm. Does that seem fair?


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## Daniel James (Dec 15, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> @ Daniel, I am speaking from a personal point of view now, although I have some EW Hollywood silver libraries I never dared to upgrade to gold or diamond, and particularly because of your video then and the opinion you expressed in this forum several times. So you see your opinion has quite some impact and there certainly is responsibility connected to it.
> 
> When searching up these posts I see that you were running an 8core MacPro with 8Gigs of RAM then (figure from 2012). Is this still your system now if I may ask? How current is your information?



I am on an 8 core with 22 gigs of RAM now. It still runs the same. Except now it has background loading which is the only real difference from my video. Although you still have t owait for it to fully load before using and if you swap projects you have to wait for it to load before the project opens (in Ableton Live at least)

-DJ


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## Hannes_F (Dec 15, 2014)

David Gosnell @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> I don't recollect referring to EW specifically - my comments related to the subject of censorship. My point was that just as vendors have conflicts of interest so do members and so do moderators ( in some cases). My point is that declaration of conflict of interest should be a forum rule. If anyone who is in receipt of free exposure, free product or actual cash from vendors participates in a relevant thread they should declare their interest just as vendors or their employees should.



David ... yes to that. As a matter of fact we are having stock puppet members in this forum, and this is a problem indeed. That is one point why we are a bit nervous about some users and some posts, maybe too nervous sometimes.



> My point about advertising was, that should a vendor threaten to withdraw their sponsorship because they don't like what is being posted ( and I seem to recollect that in this thread is was confirmed that the example quoted was not EW, as it was Jay's comments that were targeted) then VI-C has a conflict of interest that would need to be carefully considered.



That has happened, and more than once. As far as I am knowing all could be settled without cutting the freedom of speech of any members. None of these cases has to do with the current thread (except perhaps that EW is not advertising in this forum since ages, as you all know, but that is accepted as a given fact).



> Anyhoo, I'll promise to think about what I post if you promise to read it properly before you throw me back a dismissive and patronising facepalm. Does that seem fair?



Speechless :shock:


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## David Gosnell (Dec 15, 2014)

I liked the 2nd response better ... :D


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## FriFlo (Dec 15, 2014)

And the war goes on ... I will not even attempt to add any facts, because anything has been said - both against EW and in defense of EW.
I only have a serious question towards EW: Do you really think this is all worth it? Are people really that narrow minded and buy your stuff just for the reason they get stuff really cheap, when it is 1 - 2 years old? I stopped buying after EWSO play version. From the quality of the demos I would have bought the whole Hollywood series for the full price, if ...
... I would'n have known, I will get the whole orchestra for less than the initial price of HS ON SALE! 2 years later ... it happended again.
... you wouldn't have deleted my first and last post on the EW forum, that was just a question.
... I would see any commitment to make the Play engine anywhere close to VSL or Kontakt (VSL is a fair comparison, as this is only a very small team - 2 programmers, I believe).
Drop your crazy sales, put some work and money into the software to make it top notch and either drop your forum or make it worth the name (forum romanum - the meaning of the word shouts democracy!). And I will be more than happy to buy some of your (otherwise) great libraries. I am sure there are many people like me ... think about it! You can only gain on the long run!


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## Hannes_F (Dec 15, 2014)

Daniel James @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> I am on an 8 core with 22 gigs of RAM now. It still runs the same. Except now it has background loading which is the only real difference from my video. Although you still have t owait for it to fully load before using and if you swap projects you have to wait for it to load before the project opens (in Ableton Live at least)-DJ



And is is equipped with an SSD?


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## StatKsn (Dec 15, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> BTW I would love to test the gearslutz version some time because there threads are sailing quite smoothly, and without backtalking, go figure. _Then _we could talk about over moderation. But the other moderators won't let me



FWIW there was essentially a GS version of this thread (albeit smaller) a few months ago, where a user questioned about how stable Play is on Mac, started off nicely, some angry former customers chimed in, and EW Lurker tried a bit too hard to defend Play, then the thread went crazy (can I say de-va-ju?). But that was un-moderated. ~o) 

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/logic-p ... -work.html


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## Craig Sharmat (Dec 15, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Daniel James @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I am on an 8 core with 22 gigs of RAM now. It still runs the same. Except now it has background loading which is the only real difference from my video. Although you still have t owait for it to fully load before using and if you swap projects you have to wait for it to load before the project opens (in Ableton Live at least)-DJ
> ...



even it was equipped with an SSD I am not sure what he would need to take advantage of that SSD drives speed on that machine.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 15, 2014)

@StatKsn, interesting. But as much as I would like to add a bickering paragraph being added to the forum rules it won't happen anyways because freedom of speech is holy, so everybody bicker right away. o=<


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## Hannes_F (Dec 15, 2014)

Craig Sharmat @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> even it was equipped with an SSD I am not sure what he would need to take advantage of that SSD drives speed on that machine.



... which brings me to an idea: Could those that succeded define something like 'VI-Control user minimum specs' both for Mac and PC in order to run EW Hollywood Gold resp. Diamond smoothly? That would be productive, no?

Honestly, I am clueless what and 8-core means in Mac world. On a PC that could be a very wide range.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 15, 2014)

I am going to make what I hope will be one last post in this thread that I think is entirely fair.

For those like the OP who are coming to Play, specifically HS Diamond and Gold which are the most demanding , fresh with little or no interest in the whole litany of what happened to who when, regardless of what the system specs say and how they are interpreted to translate, yadda yadda, based on my experience:

1. If you have a recent reasonably powerful PC you will be able to run 1 mic position of almost all the patches from a 7200 drive. If from an SSD, you will be be to run multiple mic positions and the powerful system patches.

2. If you have a recent reasonably powerful Mac you will be able to run 1 mic position of almost all the patches from a 7200 drive. If from an SSD, you will be be to run multiple mic positions and the powerful system patches. but you will run out of RAM more quickly because the same patches take more RAM under OSX than Windows. I don't know why but they do.

3. If you have a recent reasonably powerful Mac or PC with recent reasonably powerful PC slave with SSDs, you will be be to run what you want without giving it much thought at all, once you have set it up to work efficiently with your DAW and especially with VE Pro.

And on either platformP)lay 4 is now stable. So you can easily evaluate your rig and make your decisions based on that.

If like me, you conclude that the Hollywood Series at its current price point is great sounding and the most complete and most affordable at this point in time, then you may decide it is worth the system resources. If you think that other libraries that demand less are equally good sounding and complete and while more expensive you would rather spend the money on the libraries than the resources, I can totally respect that conclusion. 

But I love my rig and my libraries and I am totally happy with my workflow. PM me if you have further questions because there really is no point in my debating "shoulds" here further.


----------



## WhiteNoiz (Dec 15, 2014)

Here's a good (fairly recent) comparison video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtBxZaUB8p8



Hannes_F @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> (except perhaps that EW is not advertising in this forum since ages, as you all know, but that is accepted as a given fact).



http://postimg.org/image/mpnpijzln/full/

>8o 



 Doug Rogers @ 12-04-2007 said:


> However, we fully expect our users to be working 64-bit, or 32-bit with unlimited ram access, in the immediate future, so the need for multiple computers will not be necessary unless you want a massive enterprise scale system.



http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... ostcount=9

Certainly ahead of their time. ~o)  

Partial joking aside, I think they had changed their recommended specs recently but I don't remember what was changed (I think they added an SSD recommendation in their recommended system specs or something but I'm not sure).


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Dec 15, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> David Gosnell @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Although I can understand a conflict of interest between allowing open debate and the desire to generate advertising revenue
> ...



Actually Hannes EW does pay for ads here.


----------



## Hannes_F (Dec 15, 2014)

WhiteNoiz @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> http://postimg.org/image/mpnpijzln/full/
> 
> >8o



Good find, especially for a first time poster. I stand corrected, sorry. I remember they pulled out but obviously they returned. Welcome to the forum, WhiteNoiz.



EastWest Lurker said:


> 1. If you have a recent reasonably powerful PC ...
> 2. If you have a recent reasonably powerful Mac ...
> 3. If you have a recent reasonably powerful Mac or PC ...



Thanks Jay but it would be good to know what that means. As I can see on this website even "8-core MacPro" or "12-core MacPro" can mean a lot of things:

http://browser.primatelabs.com/mac-benchmarks

My suggestion would be that successful users download some benchmark program, for example this
http://browser.primatelabs.com/
and tell others what their computer performance is, both for single and tutti cores. That way one could at least roughly estimate where the own computer stands and what would be needed instead.

Jay, what would be your benchmark values if I may ask?


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Dec 15, 2014)

Hannes, I think we all know what these are. My 2012 iMac i7 is a recent reasonably powerful Mac.

I think it is fair to say that anything made before 2010 is not "recent."


----------



## AC986 (Dec 15, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> I am going to make what I hope will be one last post in this thread that I think is entirely fair.
> 
> For those like the OP who are coming to Play,




Hahaha! You old salesman you!!!


----------



## José Herring (Dec 15, 2014)

Daniel James @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > jcrosby @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> ...



That I understand. The stated specs on SOL are deliberately misleading for the mac.


----------



## Daniel James (Dec 15, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Hannes, I think we all know what these are. My 2012 iMac i7 is a recent reasonably powerful Mac.
> 
> I think it is fair to say that anything made before 2010 is not "recent."



I remember this argument when the first negative comments on PLAY rolled in..."Pfft your machine is just old" yet here we are years later and my 08 Mac Pro works great for everything......but PLAY. Considering when I got HS I was well within the recommended specs (and still am if you read them) then I don't think the onus should be on me to buy a new machine for a few grand, get SSDs for a few hundred into a few grand, and then get VEPro for a few hundred to make one piece of software even useable for my job as a working composer, when the competition still to this day works incredibly.

If you were the only company out there who made a sampler that ran large sample libraries then maybe you might fool the odd person here or there that its their fault the software runs so poorly. But when you have more than one competitor that has proven over and over again for the past few years that you can work flawlessly even on a machine like mine, with sample libraries that are every bit as complex and large...then I am afraid the argument that I should get a better machine holds zero water with me. 

-DJ


----------



## KEnK (Dec 15, 2014)

josejherring @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> The stated specs on SOL are deliberately misleading for the mac.


And this is sooo much the roost cause of all the frustration
I don't know what the sys req are now, 
but I felt it was understated years ago
(on Mac specs)


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Dec 15, 2014)

Daniel James @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Hannes, I think we all know what these are. My 2012 iMac i7 is a recent reasonably powerful Mac.
> ...



But ALL libraries, Play or Kontakt, run FAR better from SSDs and benefit from more powerful machines.. And most "working composers" expect to periodically spend money to upgrade their machines to newer more powerful models.

I help a lot of "working composers" in LA with Logic Pro and not even a single one of them is running anything close to as low powered a rig as yours, not even those who don't run any Play stuff.


----------



## José Herring (Dec 15, 2014)

I think it's important to remember that. Nobody means to come down on DJ specifically, 

If you want to use the Hollywood Series, which runs perfectly well and even better than Kontakt if you set it up on the right equipment, then you'll need to change your setup. If you're not willing to do that, then don't use it.

We can go on all day and all night for years about "what should be" and neglect what is.


----------



## Hannes_F (Dec 15, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Hannes, I think we all know what these are.



Jay, you may, I might not. Especially with overclocking it is a game that is not really dependent on the built year. I wonder whether we could become a bit more precise and quantitative, it would at least help me.



> My 2012 iMac i7 is a recent reasonably powerful Mac. I think it is fair to say that anything made before 2010 is not "recent."



OK, if I take the table mentioned above and set Daniel's 8-core computer to 100 % then a 2012 i7 Mac can be between 155 % and 200 % of that performance for a single core, depending on the model. The multi-core performance should however be just the same or slightly above, if your 2012 model is a 4 core (I need to check that again but have to leave the house).

Could it be that VEPro is the great game changer because it distributes the load between the cores?


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Dec 15, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Hannes, I think we all know what these are.
> ...



Yes, but understand that my iMac also uses faster RAM than his machine; has SATA III not just SATA II; and a myriad of other more robust stuff. It is not just about CPU.


----------



## StatKsn (Dec 15, 2014)

jcrosby @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> I'd love to see someone become an alternative to NI. Diversity is a great thing. But it won't be happening without a little humility and admitting there are some bugs that need to be squashed on their part.



I already wrote this in the other thread, but NI has been very clever in how they provide support; let people openly discuss, even rant about their software in the official forums. As a result, it is fairly easy to find out how to troubleshoot Kontakt/Reaktor/whatever, since NI forums became the vast knowledge base itself, made by users voluntarily. Adobe also employs similar open approach. What they have in common is that while the software is far from perfect/glitch-free, you can find the way to troubleshoot (they also won't give up and say something like "your rig is not pro enough", obviously).

EW's official forum is, nonetheless, always under heavy moderation (I started to write about Play's technical aspects because my post suggesting a troubleshoot for QL Spaces never even got approved) and their support forums can't be seen without logging in, which effectively make it invisible from search engines. In fact, I had a few problems with Play (even installing Play libraries right off the bat) but I had to tackle most of Play problem on my own - because there is no good knowledge base, only random posts in KVR/GS/VI or even VSL forums or Reaper forums.

After all, I can't help but think Play as a software/service has been suffering from a major fundamental issue, not "fixed this bug" or "I will help you" stuff, because there always be newcomers with different specs and without clue. To borrow EW Lurker's word, VI control is only a small dot in the VI world, so if there is 3 people having a problem with Play here, there must be 30 people having a problem with Play there.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Dec 15, 2014)

BTW, I think that I need to add the following points:

1. It’s not true you can’t use PLAY while background loading is taking place, EW fixed that issue many revisions ago.

2. EW hasn't been the market leader for as long as it has with more awards than all other developers combined for no reason - AND - we have over 7,800 user demos in our Music Cafe ‘only made with our instruments’ and another over 200 at our websites. How on earth did these all get made if nothing works?

3. It does say on the website:
IMPORTANT: Some of the largest patches (in the "Powerful System" folders) can take up to 1GB of RAM to load per mic position, and are intended for systems that meet the optimal specs. "Light" versions of these patches are included for slower systems. Optimal specs may also be required to load multiple mic positions.

Does any Kontakt library have a 1 GB patch?


----------



## Daniel James (Dec 15, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Daniel James @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> ...



Well I am glad your friends have better machines than me, thanks for the heads up there. It doesn't change the fact that my machine runs every other piece of audio software flawlessly with PLAY as the ONLY exception. 

The only reason one would need to upgrade is if the technology gets in the way of the work. And as I say with everything else working flawlessly, super fast except for PLAY suggests to me that the problem is with the software and not my machine. Its been the same from when I got it at release when my computer was every bit as strong and withing the requirements.

Also whats with all the "working composers" in quotations? Its as if you are suggesting I am not or that I shouldn't consider myself one because my machine is old? Jeeze its always tough to talk to Jay without getting that condescending attitude all the time.

-DJ


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Dec 15, 2014)

I say "working composer" in parentheses because I don't follow your career so I cannot vouch for the truth or the lack of truth in that statement. If you say it is so, I will take you at your word but as I say, most working composers I know here in LA, even the parsimonious ones, routinely put money back into upgrading their rigs. If nothing else, they need the tax write offs.

Oh, and btw, I don't believe for a nanosecond that in a very large template every single new Kontakt instrument, runs "flawlessly" on that machine from an HD because some clients of mine have needed my help devising strategies to make it all work on more powerful machines than yours.


----------



## LoungeLizard96 (Dec 15, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Does any Kontakt library have a 1 GB patch?



Berlin strings does I think
I heard some of their patches run up to 3 or 4 gig.


----------



## StatKsn (Dec 15, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> 2. EW hasn't been the market leader for as long as it has with more awards than all other developers combined for no reason - AND - we have over 7,800 user demos in our Music Cafe ‘only made with our instruments’ and another over 200 at our websites. How on earth did these all get made if nothing works?



I understand your frustration, but this is a very trite statement failed to convince people so many times in the internet, and most importantly, adds nothing but aggravation to the discussion. No other professional software developers I know resort to a statement like this. They know they don't need to, their software speaks for itself.

Edit: 8Dio Agitato Grandiose Violins Legato Ensemble is 1.10GB with all mics loaded. CineStrings can go up to 3.7GB according to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgRpTKuYS0E
Edit2: Cinematic Strings 2 Full Ensemble patch is 2.14GB with just single mic. It loads S-L-O-W-L-Y from 7200 HDD though.


----------



## NYC Composer (Dec 15, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> I am going to make what I hope will be one last post in this thread that I think is entirely fair.



10 Lurker posts later....

This is the point where I wonder if EW has instructed their employee to keep the pot boiling in the view that any publicity, positive or negative, is good publicity. Why else would their paid representative be constantly posting to clear up misconceptions when there are none? I have a 2008 Mac Pro with SATA 2 drives. The Hollywood Series has it for a snack, you can barely run anything on it. The stated minimum specs are absolutely bs. I moved on and bought a Mac Mini slave with SSDs, and I'm able to run enough Hollywood stuff to satisfy me. Daniel, on the other hand, was cheesed off by the misleading minimum specs. The salient point there: *EW SHOULD CHANGE THEM!* anyone who's tried to use the Hollywood Series with the stated minimum specs has said the same thing- they're baloney. The thing about this particular point is that it's the one point NO ONE disagrees with- except Doug Rogers. I find that completely inexplicable and an awful and misleading business practice.

I'm going to bring this up again though. With all due respect to Jay who's a long time forum member and has been quite helpful to people needing EW service, if we had a paid defender from every dev in every thread on SampleTalk, the crossfire would get pretty bizarre. It already is in this thread. I think it would have died pages ago if not for the numerous "setting the record straight" responses.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Dec 15, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I am going to make what I hope will be one last post in this thread that I think is entirely fair.



Man proposes, God disposes


----------



## Mike Greene (Dec 15, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> . . . most working composers I know herein LA, even the parsimonious ones, routinely put money back into upgrading their rigs. If nothing else, they need the tax write offs.


I don't want to get dragged into this, but I'm running 2008 and 2009 Mac Pros (three PT HD rigs in my multi-room studio) here and I know a lot of other working composers who do also. For me, the upgrade to newer Macs would only have marginal improvement, but would come at a considerable time (even more so than financial) expense, so I'm staying pat for the time being.

Also, no one "needs" a tax write off. That's just something we tell our wives to justify buying that vintage Strat, but it's not really true. No matter what tax bracket you're in, you'll save more money by _not_ buying something than by buying it.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Dec 15, 2014)

Mike Greene @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > . . . most working composers I know herein LA, even the parsimonious ones, routinely put money back into upgrading their rigs. If nothing else, they need the tax write offs.
> ...



Really? One of your fellow mods told me last year that he was upgrading because his accountant told him that "he needed to spend some money on gear."

And PT HD is a different beast than a native rig because it has its own processing power. Apples and oranges.


----------



## dedersen (Dec 15, 2014)

Mike Greene @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Also, no one "needs" a tax write off. No matter what tax bracket you're in, you'll save more money by _not_ buying something than by buying it.


Even us scandinavians are not seeing > 100% tax rates...yet.


----------



## Fleer (Dec 15, 2014)

CathodeRay @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Fleer @ Sun Dec 14 said:
> 
> 
> > CathodeRay @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> ...



I don't get this. What's with the sarcasm, 'cause this isn't irony anymore?
My personal experience is that I love EW`s instruments, their sounds, CCC pricing, and -also- their customer service. Theirs was the best customer service I experienced in these last years with any company. So I can only state from my personal experience that EW's actual customer service is indeed very good, up there with Applied Acoustics.
They promptly responded to every question I had and solved all my queries.
Maybe they were not that good in the past, but now they're really great.
And I just sent them an email. You could try that too, albeit ironical.


----------



## Guy Rowland (Dec 15, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I am going to make what I hope will be one last post in this thread that I think is entirely fair.
> ...



That's gotta be post of the month, surely?


----------



## Nick Phoenix (Dec 15, 2014)

I don't work for East West. I am an independent contractor and pretty much just writing music these days. 

The issue is here is PLAY on the Mac. I use PLAY on the Mac and its fine, but not the Hollywood Series. Some of the big EWQL libraries are really resource hungry and that in combination with the fact that the Mac does not manage memory well makes it a bad combo. AND Play is just not as good on a Mac as it is on a PC. Thats my opinion. I feel that way because I use a huge template with over 500 instruments and need every computer to run near the max. Anyone who works like this will run into issues on a Mac with PLAY. The other people (which is the majority) who run these instruments in a more conservative manner, might say PLAY is just fine on a Mac. These days it works well on a Mac with light usage. Once again that is how most people use these things. 

I use Logic and Apple has no clue about big templates. When I told them I had 550 tracks and was experiencing some issues in Logic, they laughed, "You have too many tracks!" they told me. I am guessing thats why EW doesn't address this issue on the MAC in a different way as far as specs go. They don't want to scare away the other 95%. But I don't know and after 2 years of butting heads with the lead programmer, I was satisfied he had done everything in his power to optimize PLAY. I haven't discussed PLAY with Doug in years.

Back to the copy protection issue. Successful copy protection is the Holy Grail. EW has it and it has no affect on PLAY performance. It is the only reason the Hollywood Series and SD3 got made at all. 

As far as the DJ comment goes, He's made himself a public figure like I have. Kind of role reversal. The almost former sample developer comes back for revenge on former customer turned developer/video critic. He handled it well.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 15, 2014)

Mike is right as usual. That argument about needing a new machine or you don't achieve "working composer" status is just silly. We've been through this many times: the tail-chasing days when computers were 2-year investments are over.

But my main comment is this:

S H U T * U P! G I V E * I T * A * R E S T!!!!

Jose said it 18 pages ago. Play is less efficient on Macs than Kontakt.

So if you need to run more than one mic position of Hollywood Strings along with your other stuff, buy a freaking Windows monster.

And it's now established that EW is full of rotten bastards who hate their customers and censor their forum and lie about their products. Daniel James has been persecuted and free speech has been ruined.

Now stop making me click on this thread.

Oy!


----------



## gsilbers (Dec 15, 2014)

Mike Greene @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > . . . most working composers I know herein LA, even the parsimonious ones, routinely put money back into upgrading their rigs. If nothing else, they need the tax write offs.
> ...



interesting idea about what to tell the wife. I better use that before the end of the year!
=o


----------



## alextone (Dec 15, 2014)

Nick Phoenix @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> I don't work for East West. I am an independent contractor and pretty much just writing music these days.
> 
> The issue is here is PLAY on the Mac. I use PLAY on the Mac and its fine, but not the Hollywood Series. Some of the big EWQL libraries are really resource hungry and that in combination with the fact that the Mac does not manage memory well makes it a bad combo. AND Play is just not as good on a Mac as it is on a PC. Thats my opinion. I feel that way because I use a huge template with over 500 instruments and need every computer to run near the max. Anyone who works like this will run into issues on a Mac with PLAY. The other people (which is the majority) who run these instruments in a more conservative manner, might say PLAY is just fine on a Mac. These days it works well on a Mac with light usage. Once again that is how most people use these things.
> 
> ...



550 tracks?

Lightweight.

:mrgreen:


----------



## The Darris (Dec 15, 2014)

Mike Greene @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Also, no one "needs" a tax write off. That's just something we tell our wives to justify buying that vintage Strat, but it's not really true. No matter what tax bracket you're in, you'll save more money by _not_ buying something than by buying it.



My wife is an accountant so I can't use that argument. :(


----------



## LoungeLizard96 (Dec 15, 2014)

gsilbers @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Mike Greene @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> ...



o-[][]-o


----------



## LoungeLizard96 (Dec 15, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Mike is right as usual. That argument about needing a new machine or you don't achieve "working composer" status is just silly. We've been through this many times: the tail-chasing days when computers were 2-year investments are over.
> 
> But my main comment is this:
> 
> ...



I echo this sentiment..

Although, I don't know about them all being bitter bastards. Never dealt with them.


----------



## Valérie_D (Dec 15, 2014)

What. Have. I. Done. -0_0-


----------



## Stephen Rees (Dec 15, 2014)

Now you know now Frankenstein ('It's pronounced Frunkensteen') felt....


----------



## alextone (Dec 15, 2014)

Valérie_D @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> What. Have. I. Done. -0_0-



Hehe, nothing.

After a hard day at the coalface writing testosterone fuelled blockbuster themes, the chaps are letting off some steam.

Alex.


----------



## Mike Greene (Dec 15, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Mike is right as usual. That argument about needing a new machine or you don't achieve "working composer" status is just silly. We've been through this many times: the tail-chasing days when computers were 2-year investments are over.
> 
> But my main comment is this:
> 
> ...


Nick is right. (Except for the part about Mike being right. That's just crazy talk.)

So I guess all that remains to be resolved is that since this is entirely her fault, do we ban Valérie, or just suspend her?


----------



## José Herring (Dec 15, 2014)

Mike Greene @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike is right as usual. That argument about needing a new machine or you don't achieve "working composer" status is just silly. We've been through this many times: the tail-chasing days when computers were 2-year investments are over.
> ...



Teach Valérie a lesson. She broke the rules.

1st RULE: You do not talk about EW.
2nd RULE: You DO NOT talk about EW.
3rd RULE: If someone says "stop" or goes limp, taps out the thread is over.
4th RULE: Only two guys to a fight.
5th RULE: One fight at a time.
6th RULE: No shirts, no shoes.
7th RULE: Fights will go on as long as they have to.
8th RULE: If this is your first night at VI, you HAVE to fight.


----------



## AC986 (Dec 15, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> S H U T * U P! G I V E * I T * A * R E S T!!!!
> 
> Oy!



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAhAHA


----------



## alextone (Dec 15, 2014)

Mike Greene @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike is right as usual. That argument about needing a new machine or you don't achieve "working composer" status is just silly. We've been through this many times: the tail-chasing days when computers were 2-year investments are over.
> ...



house arrest for a day, with an 8 hour playlist of justin beiber tunes. 
And country and western.

She'll never do it again.....


----------



## tokatila (Dec 15, 2014)

Valérie_D @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> What. Have. I. Done. -0_0-


----------



## nadeama (Dec 15, 2014)

alextone @ 15/12/2014 said:


> house arrest for a day, with an 8 hour playlist of justin beiber tunes.
> And country and western.
> 
> She'll never do it again.....



That's cruel and unusual punishment.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Dec 15, 2014)

Worse, sentence her to listen to "Epic" trailer style music


----------



## alextone (Dec 15, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> Worse, sentence her to listen to "Epic" trailer style music



You're definitely more evil than I am.......


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Dec 15, 2014)

alextone @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Worse, sentence her to listen to "Epic" trailer style music
> ...



Maxwell Smart: And loving it!


----------



## germancomponist (Dec 15, 2014)

Huh...., what is going on here...?

Friends, behave and think about christmastime! 

o-[][]-o


----------



## JonFairhurst (Dec 15, 2014)

Now that we've sung "Kumbaya" (possibly in C and F# simultaneously), I have a technical question about PLAY on the Mac...

What is the nature of the limitation? Is it mu-u-u-ch slower loading? Does it have capacity for far fewer instruments? Or is it that the latency is longer (or is there stuttering) with small templates or single instruments?

The reason I ask is that I have a 2010 MacBook Pro with SSD (4GB today, expandable to 8GB) that I want to use for very limited live playing. I would only need to load an instrument or two plus keyswitches/modwheel/pedal control. The output can be dry. If I get greedy, I might load enough instruments for a small number of songs (4?) to allow faster transitions.

The bottom line is that I wonder if the Mac performance issue only hits power users (*orchestral composers) or if the limitations are more fundamental that that.


----------



## jtnyc (Dec 15, 2014)

I purchased EWQLSO Gold, Stormdrum and RA 6 or 7 years ago. My setup was well within the recommended specs. IT WAS A NIGHTMARE!!! Constant crashes, clicking and popping, cpu overloads…. just didn't work. After a couple of tech support phone calls and no improvement, I was told it must be something to do was my setup. They refused to take any responsibility and I was left with several hundred dollars of libraries I couldn't use. I then went on the sounds online forum and started to ask if others were having similar problems. Others chimed in with issues and a discussion began. I shared my experience that I had with tech support and voiced my frustration about spending all that money and not being able to use the product, even though EW stated on the product page that it would run on my system. Well, that got be banned from the forum and then I received a rather insulting and quite frankly very immature PM from one of the owners angrily chastising me and defending the ban. It was bizarre to say the least. Between that and the absence of any tech support whatsoever, I vowed to never spend a single dime with EW again. After that happened I never made a single post of brought it up in a thread until now, but seeing that EW is still blaming peoples within spec systems for issue ridden software is unbelievable. 

Now that was a long time ago and since Play 4 those old libraries run pretty good, but I hear that their newer libraries are bigger and hungry for resources, so I wouldn't go near them as I don't run slave computers or Vpro. I also wouldn't go near them because of the way I was treated. These kind of experiences resonate and ultimately effect public opinion by word of mouth. EW has always tried to control negative feedback on their forum with warnings and bans, which in turn only got them more negative feedback. Kinda funny really. Because of my experience with EW I always say proceed with caution.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 15, 2014)

I am sorry to hear that and if I can help, let me know.


----------



## Fleer (Dec 15, 2014)

jtnyc, you're talking about six or seven years ago. When was your last direct experience with EW?


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## José Herring (Dec 15, 2014)

7 years ago wasn't EWQLSO and all libraries on Kontakt? You really shouldn't have had any problems whatsoever. I ran all those libraries on a P4 and an even weaker AMD 6400+ and they worked fine. you really can't hold that against them.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 15, 2014)

JonFairhurst @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Now that we've sung "Kumbaya" (possibly in C and F# simultaneously), I have a technical question about PLAY on the Mac...
> 
> What is the nature of the limitation? Is it mu-u-u-ch slower loading? Does it have capacity for far fewer instruments? Or is it that the latency is longer (or is there stuttering) with small templates or single instruments?
> 
> ...



Use the lighter patches of Silver or Gold from the Hollywood series and you'll be fine for a few instruments, though you might want to bump up to 8 gig (which would help a lot of things anyway). The earlier libraries would be even less problematic.


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## jtnyc (Dec 15, 2014)

josejherring @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> 7 years ago wasn't EWQLSO and all libraries on Kontakt? You really shouldn't have had any problems whatsoever. I ran all those libraries on a P4 and an even weaker AMD 6400+ and they worked fine. you really can't hold that against them.



It was Play for sure. An early version. Why shouldn't I hold it against them? They sold me something they claimed would work on the system I had, and it didn't. They also banned me and personally criticized me for sharing my frustration and experience about their tech support. I don't see how time would changes any of that. 

As I said, Play 4 runs those old libraries fine now, but for at least 2 years after I bought them I couldn't use them without major issues. My experience is not a one off. It's why this thread and many other are started in the first place.


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## jtnyc (Dec 15, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> I am sorry to hear that and if I can help, let me know.



Thanks Jay, as I said, they are running ok in Play 4, but thanks for the offer.


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## José Herring (Dec 15, 2014)

jtnyc @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > 7 years ago wasn't EWQLSO and all libraries on Kontakt? You really shouldn't have had any problems whatsoever. I ran all those libraries on a P4 and an even weaker AMD 6400+ and they worked fine. you really can't hold that against them.
> ...



My mistake. Yes I had the same problem. Treated in a similar way. But, I never thought of holding it against them. I just cursed them out and moved on to get HS and HB and SD2 and VOP when they came out. :lol: I guess I have a hard time holding on to grudges.


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## jcrosby (Dec 15, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> BTW, I think that I need to add the following points:
> 
> 1. It’s not true you can’t use PLAY while background loading is taking place, EW fixed that issue many revisions ago.
> 
> ...



1: Not entirely true, depending on the patch loading or patches in project you often get pops and crackles when trying to play while loading in background. IMO I wouldn't call that resolved.

3: MANY - Cinestrings, LASS, Adagio Strings, Adagietto, Mural Strings, Cinematic Strings. Cinmatic Strings alone weighs in at about 2 gigs using only one mic position. With multi mics you're over a gig for just one section.


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## jtnyc (Dec 15, 2014)

Fleer @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> jtnyc, you're talking about six or seven years ago. When was your last direct experience with EW?



If you had an experience like the one I described, would you go back for more? I wouldn't and didn't. There too many great options out there to chance it. Why bother.

Also, if someone deceives or insults you and never takes responsibility for it, why would you trust them in the future? 1 year or 6, I don't see the difference. Time does not automatically excuse that kind of behavior. Maybe they are better at customer service now. Maybe their Hollywood libraries would run on a computer that just makes the minimum requirements. I see people claiming otherwise pretty regularly and that combined with my experience leaves suspect of EW


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## jcrosby (Dec 15, 2014)

alextone @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> 550 tracks?
> 
> Lightweight.
> 
> :mrgreen:



Lulz :lol: I'm over 700 with mine and PLay is the only bottle neck


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## jtnyc (Dec 15, 2014)

josejherring @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> jtnyc @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> ...



It's not a grudge. It's a matter of trust and giving my business to developers that treat me with honesty and respect.


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## jcrosby (Dec 15, 2014)

Valérie_D @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> What. Have. I. Done. -0_0-


I believe it's referred to as kicking a hornets nest. :shock:


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 15, 2014)

jcrosby @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, I think that I need to add the following points:
> ...



But you're comparing one section with multi mics to 1 patch with 1 mic? Unless I am misunderstanding.

I am running out to my Logic Pro X user group meeting that I run, but tomorrow morning I will be posting some very interesting results from 2 people, one of our mods and one of EW's developers on older Mac Pros like Daniel's. I think some people will be surprised.


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## LoungeLizard96 (Dec 15, 2014)

jtnyc @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > jtnyc @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> ...




My college tutor had issues with East West support.

I don't buy from companies that can't communicate properly with their customers, they don't deserve my money.

To be honest, this to me is a bigger issue than the whole Play thing.


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## StatKsn (Dec 15, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> But you're comparing one section with multi mics to 1 patch with 1 mic? Unless I am misunderstanding.


CineStrings has a patch where it's at least 0.9GB loaded DFD per mic per articulation and Berlin Strings legato patches are at least 1GB per mic each. IMHO this comparison is not entirely valid since the memory load can vary depending on pre-load buffer settings (Kontakt) and engine level (Play).


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## jcrosby (Dec 16, 2014)

StatKsn @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> CineStrings has a patch where it's at least 0.9GB loaded DFD per mic per articulation and Berlin Strings legato patches are at least 1GB per mic each. IMHO this comparison is not entirely valid since the memory load can vary depending on pre-load buffer settings (Kontakt) and engine level (Play).



It's also not valid for the reason that a single Mic articulation of Play is still much less stable than a multi-mic articulation of Kontakt requiring more RAM.

Why they believe they're above saying _"we are aware of Play's performance issues and we will be addressing this in future updates"_ is beyond me. 
It works for the entire rest of the industry. 8)


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## ysnyvz (Dec 16, 2014)

jcrosby @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> 3: MANY - Cinestrings, LASS, Adagio Strings, Adagietto, Mural Strings, Cinematic Strings. Cinmatic Strings alone weighs in at about 2 gigs using only one mic position. With multi mics you're over a gig for just one section.


also they are all using ncw compressıon which saves a lot of ram and cpu.
another thing what kontakt shows is not actual ram usage.
open kontakt in standalone and load a patch. then open windows task manager. you will see it's always bigger.


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## TheUnfinished (Dec 16, 2014)

Surely, all it really boils down to is that East West behaved like dicks for several years and, unfortunately for them, people haven't forgotten?


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## FriFlo (Dec 16, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> Surely, all it really boils down to is that East West behaved like dicks for several years and, unfortunately for them, people haven't forgotten?


Exactly! A long term business is all about investing in long term relation ships with customers. And who would honestly try to say EW did a good job at that? Sure, there may be a few people defending them (although often quite a few one-time posters). But over all the negativity towards EW is overwhelmingly bigger than towards anyone else. They must really be stubborn to not see that ... Guys! It is not a big conspiracy against you! You rightfully earned your reputation! Admit it, and react accordingly and your reputation can be restored. Even, if it will certainly take some time, it will be worth it on the long run.


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## AC986 (Dec 16, 2014)

The way I see it, just as an example library, EW Strings (or whatever) would have to be awesome in comparison against all the others that have come up in recent times.

I mean they would have to be awesome! Because why would anyone want to be bothered, especially on a Mac having the obvious Play issues? And why would would anyone in this day and age given the power of a single computer, want to be bothered getting a slave computer just to run a library that _probably isn't_ that awesome in comparison to say Cinesamples or Mural?

This is what I can't understand unless I'm missing something.


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## woodsdenis (Dec 16, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> Surely, all it really boils down to is that East West behaved like dicks for several years and, unfortunately for them, people haven't forgotten?



After 12 pages we have a winner, question answered.


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## AC986 (Dec 16, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> Surely, all it really boils down to is that East West behaved like dicks for several years and, unfortunately for them, people haven't forgotten?



Doesn't this violate Clause 7?



:mrgreen:


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

I have a request to make from all of you, respectfully. This thread is 12 pages long, so those of you who are vehemently anti-EW an/or Play have certainly had ample opportunity to again make your feelings known to those who are considering purhasing e.g. Hollywood Strings.

So I ask that you leave the thread to dicussion among those who are still open to the possibility of what can be expected on different systems. As I no longer have a systen close to the ‘recommended system” to test I reached out to our esteemed colleague and moderatior Nick Batzdorf to test something for me, as he DOES have an older Mac Pro that is consistent wuth the reommended system specs that some of you still use.

I wrote to him: “Here is my spin on what any serious composer would minimally need from HS to acomplish a composition, not large, just what most of us consider basic:

1. Leg Slur LT 6 NI
2. Sus KS C0-F#0 Ni
3. Spic Marc MOD 
4. Pizz 3 RRx4
5. 1 Playavble Rubns patch of your choosing. The basses don’t have one, though.

So for all the sections, 19 patches, all 1 mic position, none from the Powerful System folder.

If a composer can run that with the recommended system IMHO they can write probably 85% of what they will ever write and they can do so with any Mac that that meets the “recommended system”, like yours and Daniel’s, then I would love to be able to state that on the forum.”

I am happy to report that he loaded those in VE Pro connceted to Logic Pro and he says that he can run it without stability issues or pops and clicks just fine from a 7200 drive. Tiody he will try adding a second mic position and see what happens.

I also expressed my great concern over this issue to Doug about this and he sent it to one of the EW developers who also has a system similar to Nick and Daniel’s. 

Here is what he wrote to Doug :
“I will make a session to these specs and give them a try on my Mac Pro. It is a somewhat older 8 Core with 19GB of RAM, streaming off an internal 7200rpm drive, still running an older Mac OS 10.7.5 I'll let you know how it runs, and email you the session too, once it is made.”

And then: “I made a test session in Logic 8, and it plays well on my system.
I also tested it on an older quad-core Mac Pro we had in the studio, with 12GB of RAM using Logic 9. This session still played ok, but you could tell it was taxing the CPU more. This is with 5 multi instances of PLAY loaded, each with 5 instruments loaded, just like Jay Asher said in his email. Mine has more even, 25 instead of 20, since I have both 1st and 2nd Violins.”

Therfore, I conclude the “recommended system” specs are NOT “bs” thpugh clearly not as powerfu as I personally want. Where legitimate disagreement may come is my statement that with those patches you can compose most of what you ever want to compose but all I can say to that is that I listen to the music a lot of you post here and for the music you have posted it is certainly true IMHO.

So if you already own HS, or other EW libraires, and have a “recommend system” type computer, I think it might be worth your time to try the latest version of Play and see how it goes. If it does not go well, email me for help.

Thank you in advance for extending to me that courtesy I requested.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

Oh and btw, of course I meant or it to be 24 patches, 5 articulations each for Vln 1, Vln 2, Vla, Cellos and 4 for Basses. 

I was a little stressed out when I wrote it.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 16, 2014)

... and this is HS Diamond, right Jay?


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> ... and this is HS Diamond, right Jay?



Actually I think Nick has Gold but i will ask him.


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## GdT (Dec 16, 2014)

I come late to this thread and really don’t have time to read all the pages!

Did you mean ….
*ostracize*
 verb (used with object), ostracized, ostracizing.
1.	to exclude, by general consent, from society, friendship, conversation,privileges, etc.: His friends ostracized him after his father's arrest.
2. to banish (a person) from his or her native country; expatriate.
3. (in ancient Greece) to banish (a citizen) temporarily by popular vote.

Personally I wouldn’t have used that word (maybe you spell it different over there in the USA). Maybe I would say something like: shun, ignore, forget, cut out, stop-ship, no more business with.

Me? Personally I have 40 years IT experience and I bought several EW products. Like another post here I don’t make a habit of going onto forums complaining about EW. The EW software never worked properly on my Mac Pro. So I stopped using them. I wasted a long time trying to setup an orchestral template using EW and gave up. I regret every penny spent with EW.

In my humble opinion the PLAY software and especially the user interface is amateurish; as is the technical support. I found the EW support very unhelpful.
I made a polite suggestion for a minor improvement to the PLAY user interface which was studiously ignored. So now I ignore them. Now another sample library producer, which produces quality software, was very helpful when I made a small polite suggestion to improve it – the change was implemented in the next update.

The EW orchestral instruments have some nice sounding baked in reverb, which may help it sound good out of the box. But when it comes to mixing and combining them with others, and putting them into a different reverb space, that is a negative. 

The fact that EW has to pay someone to go on public forums to “defend” their “reputation” says it all.

In my long experience of software I notice companies come and go. The quality software lives on and …..


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## WhiteNoiz (Dec 16, 2014)

adriancook @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> The way I see it, just as an example library, EW Strings (or whatever) would have to be awesome in comparison against all the others that have come up in recent times.
> 
> I mean they would have to be awesome! Because why would anyone want to be bothered, especially on a Mac having the obvious Play issues? And why would would anyone in this day and age given the power of a single computer, want to be bothered getting a slave computer just to run a library that _probably isn't_ that awesome in comparison to say Cinesamples or Mural?
> 
> This is what I can't understand unless I'm missing something.



Well, if you like it and you can run it, why not? (As long as you can run it) You may very well be willing to do what it takes for the particular sound (even if the playback system is inefficient [but workable] - I won't say that it IS unusable for everyone).

As for the "why":
*1.* "Hollywood sound" (duh...) [Good quality, glossy, processed sound/samples]
*2.* History/Industry presence and size (I think they've pioneered the sampling world in a way or another)
*3.* Price [Whether you feel that's good or bad, I think it draws in a lot of peeps; but not necessarily professionals only and you do have to spend the difference in hardware depending on usage]
*4.* Demos [Post-Zimmer Certified (TM)]

To expand on point 3 - and I'm expressing a personal POV here - it's a combination of elements. For me, the demos were a major driving force. I'd spend hours listening to them (around the time I got into the whole "epic"/big orchestra sound thing) and thinking it sounded awesome. It was inspiring. In that, I think TJB and NP are and have been a major selling point (and big influence!). They've gone kinda hand-in-hand with how music's been evolving (and adding their own thing). When I looked more in-depth and read that they barely use them themselves or don't use them at all, it kinda broke the illusion. (I still quite like the sound though and there's some great thinking process behind the libs' design)

For me, its's been like TSFH = EW. (For good or bad)

*TLDR*: They're a part of the post-Zimmer era sound (That's used as a blanket term, I don't mean to degrade anyone)

*5.* They have a bit of everything and you can get a full, unified palette of sounds. (Combine with 3)

It's because of those that I think they're a bit full of themselves and channeling a "we know better" attitude. And that's not necessarily bad. There are many reasons to be. It also means they're passionate about what they do. And they're (were) certainly looking ahead.

Now, I think everyone here said the sounds are awesome. And I don't think anyone is conspiring against EW like some kind of poor, jealous pariah that's trying to bring them down because they're awesome. These technical issues are (were) very real. PLAY 2 was a nightmare. Totally unusable. Now it's much better but still buggy.


I don't see how anyone who invested in their libraries was looking to use it as justification to criticize them (or didn't have anything better or more productive to do). Let's be serious. It's not unfounded. And I'm pretty sure that anyone looking for support or making suggestions was not trying to throw mud-slaps but is genuinely interested in getting a properly working product and see it evolve. If it's falling on deaf ears (and even more, when you've paid for it and you're not just being considerate) it's only natural that you'll go mad. So, the never-ending cycle keeps repeating itself.

Thus, I think it would be way more productive to be humble and at least pretend to listen to feedback (even if you don't want it) and go to great lengths to help the users. Even if you think the product is godlike, it's not just for yourself. It needs to satisfy the user, too (and bring in more money due to loyalty and quality and not hype and impressions). [This applies to all devs]

Either that or say that if you don't have 15 slaves and SSDs and have a 100,000$ studio, we don't want your money. If you don't want the "noobs" why reach out to them for business? Might as well sell the libs for 15k or warn anyone to not come anywhere near if they don't have at least 6k worth of hardware or something. (But then you'd really expect a godlike product) Ok, that's kinda extreme but you get the idea.

And if I may suggest some things:
- Create something like .ncw
- Allow script (parameter) customizations
- Global purge options
- Make the support forum public and allow people to ask about expected usage for their specs and stuff and engage
- Create a more detailed FAQ that explains usage scenarios and machine builds (Maybe have a video). It might drive some people away but in exchange there should be more informed, appreciative and happy customers. Even noob ones or those with weaker machines will get a better idea for the intended/expected usage if they're more informed. (I'm assuming this could disrupt the business model though)
- I'm not a programmer but something tells me that the engine can be improved and optimized more

Sorry if I'm blabbering (and probably being naive and unknowledgeable) but I wanted to paint a full and fair picture and be honest (which may not necessarily apply to anyone else and is not necessarily 100% correct).



EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> Worse, sentence her to listen to "Epic" trailer style music



That sounds like a pleasurable torture. =o :oops:



EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> discussion among those who are still open to the possibility of what can be expected on different systems.



That's a good step! (But you're referring to a whole machine running just HS, right?)

(Did anyone watch the comparison video I posted previously...? Anyway, I'm out)


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## Valérie_D (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Worse, sentence her to listen to "Epic" trailer style music



Now that's just......that's just sick.


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## MichaelL (Dec 16, 2014)

woodsdenis @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> TheUnfinished @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Surely, all it really boils down to is that East West behaved like dicks for several years and, unfortunately for them, people haven't forgotten?
> ...




And... as judges in US courts often say when passing sentence..."without remorse, regret or apologies."

But, I believe that its worth separating the product from the corporate persona. You don't have to take them to dinner, or even like them. Their products are generally good.

I've gone back and forth over getting HS and HOW, especially with the current BOGO offers.
I've been able to run Play 4 on my MAC slave, which a 2006 Mac PRO using VEPRO, without any huge issues. But....I do render all of my tracks. So, I'm not really taxing the system at any given time. 

On my last cue, I used EWQLSO woods, only the close mics with VSS and and Altiverb loaded with one of Numerical Sound's Hollywood IR's. It sounded very good, but the time it took to get that sound bordered on prohibitive. 

All of which has me considering HOW. The HOW gold price point, especially with the BOGO offer, is very attractive compared to what other developers have on the table. But, if I need to get purchase PC slave to run it, that would be a deterrent.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 16, 2014)

Jay - just a casual observer here as a Windows guy, but Nick required VE pro to get the required result did he not? I may have understood wrong. I know in my Win7 experience, VE pro handles Play much better than Cubase 7 at any rate. It's a useful solution for those with older Macs, but shouldn't VE pro be on the specs too if that's the case? I'm not quite ready to blame everyone else's recommended spec systems just yet.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> Jay - just a casual observer here as a Windows guy, but Nick required VE pro to get the required result did he not? I may have understood wrong. I know in my Win7 experience, VE pro handles Play much better than Cubase 7 at any rate. It's a useful solution for those with older Macs, but shouldn't VE pro be on the specs too if that's the case? I'm not quite ready to blame everyone else's recommended spec systems just yet.


see 

Yes but the EW guy tested it directly in Logic Pro 8.

And Nick B doesn't in fact have Diamond.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 16, 2014)

Right - would be interested to hear someone non-partisan try the same test with Diamond and no VE pro though, since that's the scenario listed for those specs.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> Right - would be interested to hear someone non-partisan try the same test with Diamond and no VE pro though, since that's the scenario listed for those specs.




I will ask Nick to do it directly in Logic Pro.


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## SDCP (Dec 16, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> Surely, all it really boils down to is that East West behaved like dicks for several years and, unfortunately for them, people haven't forgotten?



Totally agree with that. I didn't forget, and have not bought any of their products since.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

SDCP @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> TheUnfinished @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Surely, all it really boils down to is that East West behaved like dicks for several years and, unfortunately for them, people haven't forgotten?
> ...



So you choose not to honor my respectful and reasonable request 12 pages in? I will let others decide for themselves how that reflects on you.


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## jtnyc (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> SDCP @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > TheUnfinished @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> ...



Respectfully Jay, the title of the thread refers to "taking the pulse" on peoples feelings toward EW, and that's exactly what the poster did, and now your putting him down and saying it reflects badly on him just because you have decided the thread should change direction. This is not fair at all, especially coming from an EW associate.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

I think any reasonable person would conclude that after twelve pages it was a reasonable request. Since there is nothing new to add the only motivation is malice and malice reflects well on no one in my opinion,.


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## sin(x) (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ 2014-12-16 said:


> SDCP @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > TheUnfinished @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> ...



Gee, thanks! May I next decide for myself how your trademark I'm-not-calling-you-stupid-except-I-totally-am spiel reflects on you? Take a page out of Nick's book and call someone an asshat if you think they're being an asshat. The amorphous mckinseyesque doublespeak makes my head hurt.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

I don't name call, not my style.


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## StatKsn (Dec 16, 2014)

Thank you for the report, EW Lurker. I have a few suggestions about this.

First off, this report has many fuzzy notions like "plays ok" "run just fine" (they are probably playing different midis too) which are really undesirable when it comes to benchmarking the computer software/hardware. This doesn't 100% negate the usefulness of your test report, but it is difficult to derive what is truly different between my rig and their rig. jcrosby's benchmarking was a really good "computeristic" one, he focused on entirely quantifiable parameters and was crystal clear on his math to offset potential differences in test environments. Having clearly defined parameters is especially important when the sample size is extremely small like this test. People can't properly add their individual result if there are unknown parameters.

How annoyingly nerdy I am! But that is how you find out what the true bottleneck is.

Second, I believe people like DJ are having irregularly bad performances with Play (like having pops/clicks with much simpler patches) and it is presumably unrelated to their hardware setup. Of course the problem is we don't know why is it happening.

Final suggestion is that if EW could give away a single powerful patch with just one mic (range limited) for benchmarking purpose, there would be much less grumbling about HS not working well on their rigs by those who jumped in to demanding libraries like HS. That would solve almost every problem about this.



EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> So you choose not to honor my respectful and reasonable request 12 pages in? I will let others decide for themselves how that reflects on you.


Also this is exactly kind of what has been building up so much hate. Can't you just hold it? Before hitting the button, always cool down and think twice if that is what you really need to say. It is painfully clear that you are very stressed out because there are so many easy typos in your post.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

Actually they did that for those who competed in the Ghostwriter competition. That is also a demanding library and I am told that there were very few reported issues. 

I will pass the suggestion on.


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## jtnyc (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> I think any reasonable person would conclude that after twelve pages it was a reasonable request. Since there is nothing new to add the only motivation is malice and malice reflects well on no one in my opinion,.



So the way you set this up is - anyone who doesn't do as you ask is an unreasonable person and is motivated by malice. Statements like that show your bias and remind me of my experience on the Soundsonline forum. These comments are on topic. Respectfully, if you want to change the topic, I suggest you start another thread.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

What's the point? The same people will come into that thread, as they always do, and write the same stuff.

And yes, I honestly believe that any objective person has to conclude after 12 pages not complying with the request is unreasonable.

Since the negatives have all been said, multiple times now, I am trying to turn it into a constructive examination of the specs viability. I think it sad that a few people are determined not to let me do so. And if so, can there be any other motivation other than malice?


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

BTW, my main computer is a 2012 iMac i7 with 32 GB. While it is a nice machine, can well agree it is not a beast, probably just average these days?

If so, please some of you in the LA area, make a time to come over and try running stuff both from an HD and an SSD and see what you see, bring your MIDI files or Logic projects if you like, and report back. That would have to be helpful to some people I think.


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## jtnyc (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> What's the point? The same people will come into that thread, as they always do, and write the same stuff.
> 
> And yes, I honestly believe that any objective person has to conclude after 12 pages not complying with the request is unreasonable.
> 
> Since the negatives have all been said, multiple times now, I am trying to turn it into a constructive examination of the specs viability. I think it sad that a few people are determined not to let me do so. And if so, can there be any other motivation other than malice?



Who are you to decide the direction of a thread and label anyone who doesn't comply with you unreasonable? No one is trying to stop you from doing anything. No one has requested you stop saying this or that. You are the one trying to stop people from expressing their opinions. You might think it's repetitive or maybe not relevant, but who are you to decide? Maybe the op wants as many opinions as possible. Your logic is flawed and again shows your bias.


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## David Gosnell (Dec 16, 2014)

If we're on the road to some kind of comparison on different systems, there has to be some kind of control for the test. If I play Thomas Newman type emo stuff on QL Pianos, all works fine - if I play a Chopin Etude it starts to sound like the recording engineer is frying chips in the background.

If anyone can volunteer a midi file with named patches which is known to fail in one way or another on their system to see if anyone gets flawless playback to give us a basis to analyse differences in systems that might help those of us with dust gathering EW products we love the sound of getting them into use - that would be really cool.

I reiterate, the majority of us 'usual suspects' - including DJ for sure - would love to use EW products on a professional basis if someone supplies us with a Play-related silver bullet; hell, I'd even come on here and leap to Jay's defence once in a while if I could use QL Pianos, HWS and HWB with confidence before a fast approaching deadline


----------



## Valérie_D (Dec 16, 2014)

I'm all for objectivity, as well as letting everybody express themselves.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

jtnyc @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > What's the point? The same people will come into that thread, as they always do, and write the same stuff.
> ...



Who am I? A forum member just like you, and just like you I have the right to make judgements on the reasonableness of someone's behavior. I did not surrender my right to do so when I took a part time job with EW.

Once again, your argument would have far more validity after 2 pages than after 12. Just my opinion, of course.


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## sin(x) (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ 2014-12-16 said:


> I don't name call, not my style.



I know. Name calling tends to make you accountable for what you say, while bank shots like “just a general observation, people who're looking for a slight will always find one” or “I'm not saying you're not a working composer, I'm just saying all the working composers _I_ know don't use 5-year old computers” or “I'm not saying you're unreasonable, I'm just pointing out the fact that I've made a reasonable request and you're choosing to ignore it” have at least a fleeting chance to make people who don't see through the rhetoric _think_ of the other party as asshats, while leaving you with ample semantical wiggle room to retreat in case someone calls you out on it.

I wasn't joking when I said that I wish you'd call someone an asshat instead of hiding behind that kind of impalpable corporate rhetoric. Heck, I'll volunteer as the recipient! It'll feel great, you'll see.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

David Gosnell @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> If we're on the road to some kind of comparison on different systems, there has to be some kind of control for the test. If I play Thomas Newman type emo stuff on QL Pianos, all works fine - if I play a Chopin Etude it starts to sound like the recording engineer is frying chips in the background.
> 
> If anyone can volunteer a midi file with named patches which is known to fail in one way or another on their system to see if anyone gets flawless playback to give us a basis to analyse differences in systems that might help those of us with dust gathering EW products we love the sound of getting them into use - that would be really cool.
> 
> I reiterate, the majority of us 'usual suspects' - including DJ for sure - would love to use EW products on a professional basis if someone supplies us with a Play-related silver bullet; hell, I'd even come on here and leap to Jay's defence once in a while if I could use QL Pianos, HWS and HWB with confidence before a fast approaching deadline



Well Jose' offered to help you with that and he knows PCs really well. I could only help you if it was a PC slave.

But if oyu have a MIDI file of that Chopin etude I will be happy to try it out with QL Pianos on both my Mac and PC slave.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

sin(x) @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ 2014-12-16 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't name call, not my style.
> ...



Once again, not acceptable in my personal code of conduct. It isn't hiding in my view, it just is a promise I made to myself long ago in how I engage with those I disagree with. I never want to write something that I would not say to a person's face if he was 6'5" and 250 lbs, and there are a lot of folks on the internet who would be in physical jeopardy if they said to some big person's face some things that they blithely write.


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## StatKsn (Dec 16, 2014)

Passive aggressive bank shots will nonetheless face the same fate, but thanks for the nice chuckle :wink:


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## AC986 (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> sin(x) @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > I never want to write something that I would not say to a person's face if he was 6'5" and 250 lbs, and there are a lot of folks on the internet who would be in physical jeopardy if they said to some big person's face some things that they blithely write.



Jay if he was 6' 5" you'd be saying it to his navel. 

Let's try and not fantasise about our height now.






:mrgreen:


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## jtnyc (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> jtnyc @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> ...



1 - I don't believe as a forum member you or I get to decide what can or can't be discussed and labeling people negatively for not conforming to your requests is no different than name calling.

2 - But I didn't see the post until there were several pages already written. So according to you, I should have not put forth my opinion because others already put forth similar opinions? The op is looking for a community consensus. That requires opinions. Yes, you've heard them for years and are probably tired of it, but she hasn't and is looking to make an educated decision. Please don't criticize me for chiming in at what you and only you consider to be late or repetitiously.


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## David Gosnell (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> Well Jose' offered to help you with that and he knows PCs really well. I could only help you if it was a PC slave.
> 
> But if oyu have a MIDI file of that Chopin etude I will be happy to try it out with QL Pianos on both my Mac and PC slave.



I too am hoping Jose will be able to help me, my point was that if we have learned anything from the litany of EW threads it is likely that experiences are based not just on PC specs but also on what you ask the instruments to do. I don't have a specific midi of a Chopin étude per se, I guess I was suggesting non-pianists will probably have no issues because they aren't asking QL Pianos to work very hard. Equally slow moving strings played pad style don't stretch HWS like contrapuntal divisi writing, HWB staccatos might not have obvious sync problems unless you are layering or working to a sync track etc.

I was attempting to suggest a trial of a patch list on different systems unless you ask them to do the same thing. One persons perfect can be another person's unusable depending on what they expect the product to be capable of delivering.

(If you are looking for a section of my post to cherry pick, I would recommend the bit about pianists vs. non pianists, that's bound to tangent the thread away from the idea of a control based comparative system test :wink: )


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## MichaelL (Dec 16, 2014)

Jay....I hope that they pay you A LOT!

You stand on the front lines like a trooper.


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## FriFlo (Dec 16, 2014)

Valérie_D @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> I'm all for objectivity, as well as letting everybody express themselves.


And finally, the question of the day ... are you gonna go East-West, Valerie? :mrgreen:


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## MichaelL (Dec 16, 2014)

FriFlo @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> Valérie_D @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm all for objectivity, as well as letting everybody express themselves.
> ...




And one other thing, Valerie, now that you've been initiated....DO NOT ask any questions like "which is better, traditional film music or hybrid film music?" :lol:


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## Mike Greene (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> SDCP @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > TheUnfinished @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> ...


Oy. Hello fire. Here comes Jay with some more gasoline for you.


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## Valérie_D (Dec 16, 2014)

Well my mac is in the shop getting internal ssd drives and I bought Gypsy for starters :D 

I might buy a slave pc in the current of the year.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 16, 2014)

> Right - would be interested to hear someone non-partisan try the same test with Diamond and no VE pro though, since that's the scenario listed for those specs.



Just to be clear, I'm totally nonpartisan (not in politics, but here). The only reason I'm loading stuff into Play to see how well it works is that I'm interested in knowing how well it works.

Will report on the rest of my 'sperimenting.


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## TheUnfinished (Dec 16, 2014)

If we truly want objectivity on this thread, perhaps a representative of the company being discussed attempting to police what is being said might just fall short of calls for objectivity? Just a teensy bit?


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## Mystic (Dec 16, 2014)

I think everyone needs to take a step back and chill out.

This thread is the exact reason why forums need to be moderated; not to silence, but to help keep the peace and not let the forum turn into a fiery flame fest. This has been 13 pages now of a lot of bitter personal insults and it's gotten way out of hand. I get it, some of you don't like East West and that is fine; I posted my concerns about them as well early on but to drag it out 13 pages long of just bickering at each other is pretty unacceptable by any standards and way past the point of constructive criticism.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> If we truly want objectivity on this thread, perhaps a representative of the company being discussed attempting to police what is being said might just fall short of calls for objectivity? Just a teensy bit?



Which is why I asked Nick to do the test. He is neither pro EW or anti-EW.

But let's face it, I am kidding myself. It doesn't matter what he reports, or if I have 39 other guys report it, the same people will come in and make the same charges.

I honestly think it is a shame that you guys simply won't let me turn this into something constructive because ultimately, YOU are the losers. EW is a very successful company and will continue to be. I will continue to work for them and get paid and if at some point I no longer do, between my current work, royalties, and social security payments I am fine financially.. I am fortunate to have been able to afford a really good rig and can run what I want. Most of the clients who hire me to help them with Logic Pro and VE Pro, whether they use Play or not, will continue to hire me, pay me, and treat me with more respect than I get here, at least publicly, so that is all fine.

I really tried to do something here that not only helped EW but potentially helped many of you who bought EW libraries and say they cannot run them well. But if some of you insist, as Keith commented, on amping up the signal to noise ratio to where I can't, then I just have to accept that and move on.


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## David Gosnell (Dec 16, 2014)

Mystic @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> I think everyone needs to take a step back and chill out.
> 
> This thread is the exact reason why forums need to be moderated; not to silence, but to help keep the peace and not let the forum turn into a fiery flame fest. This has been 13 pages now of a lot of bitter personal insults and it's gotten way out of hand. I get it, some of you don't like East West and that is fine; I posted my concerns about them as well early on but to drag it out 13 pages long of just bickering at each other is pretty unacceptable by any standards and way past the point of constructive criticism.



True that EW threads always go this route, and I think this is one of the more good natured ones!, but I think you're being a little unfair to dismiss all of the last dozen pages as bickering - there is a core of constructiveness here and folk who are trying to move things in a meaningful direction.

Having said that, an EW thread without sweeping generalisations just wouldn't feel right, would it? :wink:


----------



## KEnK (Dec 16, 2014)

Mystic @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> I think everyone needs to take a step back and chill out.
> 
> This thread is the exact reason why forums need to be moderated; not to silence, but to help keep the peace and not let the forum turn into a fiery flame fest. This has been 13 pages now of a lot of bitter personal insults and it's gotten way out of hand...


Almost every thread here falls into semantic banter by the 3rd page


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 16, 2014)

Mystic @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> I think everyone needs to take a step back and chill out.
> 
> This thread is the exact reason why forums need to be moderated; not to silence, but to help keep the peace and not let the forum turn into a fiery flame fest. This has been 13 pages now of a lot of bitter personal insults and it's gotten way out of hand. I get it, some of you don't like East West and that is fine; I posted my concerns about them as well early on but to drag it out 13 pages long of just bickering at each other is pretty unacceptable by any standards and way past the point of constructive criticism.



Well, ya know. The past 13 pages have answered the OP more comprehensively than most. It's been almost consistently on-topic.

Jay does have a bit of a blind spot that can't see when condescension and not so thinly-veiled barbs can be every bit as offensive as outright attacks (and I'm sure he'd agree we can all form our own opinions on that), but that's not say that I'm not keen to hear how a non-VE pro test goes on an older rig. That EW have behaved abysmally in the past is pretty clear - I'm rather keen to see if Larry is right and their specs are still effectively false advertising, or if Jay is right and they're spot on.


----------



## olajideparis (Dec 16, 2014)

On a more constructive note, I'm rebuilding my PC with an Asus Sabertooth X79 mobo which I hope will make it more stable. It has been mentioned that a computer ought to be setup in a specific manner so as to accommodate the Hollywood Series more easily. If anybody has any suggestions for how I can help my system towards that end I would really appreciate it. Full Specs are: 4930k, Asus Sabertooth X79, Corsair Vengeance 32GB, Samsung Evo Pro SSD OS, Samsung EVO Samples.

Thanks

O.P.


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## jcrosby (Dec 16, 2014)

WhiteNoiz @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> (Did anyone watch the comparison video I posted previously...? Anyway, I'm out)



I did, and for anyone who missed it it's below. Richard Ames discusses his setup and does a voice count between Vienna Instruments, Kontakt and Play… 35:28 to 50:00 (47:24 is where he discusses Play.) 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtBxZaUB8p8


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## jcrosby (Dec 16, 2014)

MichaelL @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> All of which has me considering HOW. The HOW gold price point, especially with the BOGO offer, is very attractive compared to what other developers have on the table. But, if I need to get purchase PC slave to run it, that would be a deterrent.



I bought the orchestral series recently and I personally wouldn't recommend it unless you plan on upgrading the 2006 Mac Pro. It's substantially more demanding than EWSO and you can quadruple those crippling load times… It's not a library that you can add hock without frustration and lots of waiting.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

jcrosby @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> MichaelL @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > All of which has me considering HOW. The HOW gold price point, especially with the BOGO offer, is very attractive compared to what other developers have on the table. But, if I need to get purchase PC slave to run it, that would be a deterrent.
> ...



I also would not recommend Gold for a 2006 Mac Pro. Silver though, you probably wold be OK with.


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## jcrosby (Dec 16, 2014)

Scratch that last post


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 16, 2014)

Okay, so I ran the test inside Logic X rather than VE Pro. Let's see if I remember to mention all the details.

- Mac Pro 2008 8x2.8GHz, 24MB RAM, OS X 10.9.5, streaming off a standard 7200 RPM hard drive (most likely whatever Fry's had on sale when I bought it a few years ago).

- 5 instances of Play accessed from separate tracks in Logic, each instance loaded with five articulations, playing peaks of about 35 stereo voices, usually hovering around 20.

- One internal reverb turned on in each instance of Play.

- After running Memory Clean, 10GB of RAM left (with two mic positions loaded; I think it was 14.5 with one mic position).

- A reasonably dense sequence that has everyone fiddling at the same time in places.

Result:

With one mic position loaded, no issues whatsoever at a 256 sample buffer. As long as I play it back with an audio track selected, the processor load is about 15% on four cores and about 60% on one.

But to play back two mic positions (Main + adding the Close one) I had to go to a 512 sample buffer. Then it ran fine. At 256 it wasn't happy.

***
I do have the big Diamond version, I think. It's the first one that came out, in a box with a red curtain.

But really how many articulations you have loaded shouldn't really make a lot of difference, since you're not playing them all at once. They just use more memory.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

jcrosby @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> So you choose not to honor my respectful and reasonable request 12 pages in? I will let others decide for themselves how that reflects on you.



I will. I'd actually love for you to prove me wrong. I'd just like to make use of these libs without performance issues. Again, no one's complaining about the sound.

And I do still stand by the fact that Play needs some work. Load times are still crippling coming from a PCIe drive drive with 780 MB/sec read time.[/quote]

It depends on the library. HS? Sure .But if you load a patch from Silk or Stormdrum 2 or 3 the load times are not bad, even from a 7200 HD.


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## jcrosby (Dec 16, 2014)

David Gosnell @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> I reiterate, the majority of us 'usual suspects' - including DJ for sure - would love to use EW products on a professional basis if someone supplies us with a Play-related silver bullet; hell, I'd even come on here and leap to Jay's defence once in a while if I could use QL Pianos, HWS and HWB with confidence before a fast approaching deadline



Amen to that o-[][]-o All any of are asking is for EW to finally attempt to address making Play more efficient. It's really simple Jay.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

jcrosby @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> )



Amen to that o-[][]-o All any of are asking is for EW to finally attempt to address making Play more efficient. It's really simple Jay.[/quote]

Do you _really_ think they do not? Why wouldn't they? (And one of them used to code for Kontakt.)


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## jtnyc (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> TheUnfinished @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > If we truly want objectivity on this thread, perhaps a representative of the company being discussed attempting to police what is being said might just fall short of calls for objectivity? Just a teensy bit?
> ...



The Unfinished did not mention anything about your tests being bias or otherwise. You're changing the subject. He clearly was referring to you policing the thread and nothing else. And BTW, no one is trying to stop you from doing anything. You keep going on about how no one will let you… Go for it. If it helps people that's a good thing and your nice to do it, but you can't police peoples opinions because you deem them overstated or no longer relevant, especially when they address the op's post. Also you are the only one objecting to the negative comments and you work for EW. That says something. 

Here is quote from the op -"I'm all for objectivity, as well as letting everybody express themselves."


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

jtnyc @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > TheUnfinished @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> ...



I understand all that. I am only asking each participant to ask himself before yet another negative post,"Am I adding anything that was not already well stated?"

Is that really asking so much of people and somehow infringing on their freedom? I think not.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 16, 2014)

Thanks Nick - doesn't sound too bad at all, perhaps you'd hope for a bit more if that classifies as a "recommended" system rather than a minimum.

Olajide - no real specific hardware thoughts - those specs look fine if your EVO firmware is flashed, but what DAW are you using / do you use VE Pro? I had no luck at all with Play 4 and Cubase 7, but VE Pro hosted very nicely. Cubase 8 more promising.


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## HardyP (Dec 16, 2014)

jcrosby @ 2014-12-16 said:


> I did, and for anyone who missed it it's below. Richard Ames discusses his setup and does a voice count ….


Me too, and I think its also exactly what Jay is asking for - fact based evidence.
I like this video also, because Richard does not seem to be biased towards one dev or the other - he even stated that "…all of the libraries are perfectly sufficient for any type of orchestral mockup…".
But Jay, I think the only thing MOST of the (neutral, non-bashing) people around would be, that EW at least _confirms_, that PLAY is not as efficient on both platforms, as Kontakt. Hey, it´s no shame - as Doug himself said in the kvr interview, they were a sample company, not a software company (but trying to become one).
However NI, they started the other way around…

My bottom line: In this thread alone we have two proven situations, where PLAY is even idling tremendously more than VI and Kontakt. So
1. It is proven fact, that Play is not as efficient as other Sample-Players
2. That does NOT mean, that you cannot work with Play - since it is also proven fact, that you can do professional and successful music with it

I would suggest to differentiate between these 2 issues. 
And I would like to bet, as soon as EW confirms (1), more users are willing to support (2) (and spreading the word about it).

Edit: sorry, bcs of my longish post I missed some others, so doubling the one or another argument


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## MichaelL (Dec 16, 2014)

jcrosby @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> MichaelL @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > All of which has me considering HOW. The HOW gold price point, especially with the BOGO offer, is very attractive compared to what other developers have on the table. But, if I need to get purchase PC slave to run it, that would be a deterrent.
> ...




Thanks Justin! Richard's video was very telling.


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## jcrosby (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> jcrosby @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > So you choose not to honor my respectful and reasonable request 12 pages in? I will let others decide for themselves how that reflects on you.
> ...



It depends on the library. HS? Sure .But if you load a patch from Silk or Stormdrum 2 or 3 the load times are not bad, even from a 7200 HD.[/quote]

Agreed on SD-2, RA and EWSO aren't too painful. But Hwd series is still rough. I'll post up a time lapsed video screen capture of the template I have loaded in VEP when I have a moment.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

HardyP @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> jcrosby @ 2014-12-16 said:
> 
> 
> > I did, and for anyone who missed it it's below. Richard Ames discusses his setup and does a voice count ….
> ...



RE: #1 Well, I don't know if EW as a company will state it flat out but personally I will stipulate to Play not being as efficient as Kontakt. Not sure that is true of Engine, UVI, etc. Not saying it isn't, just not having really tested that. and Nick Phoenix already did earlier in the thread. The gap is less on the PC than the Mac from what I have seen.

And re: #2, Yes that has been my main point all along. Not that Play is as good as or better than Kontakt. Just that as you stated, "you can do professional and successful music with it. "


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## jtnyc (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> jtnyc @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> ...



If I read one bad review about a product I don't give it too much cred, but if I see many, I think twice. Sharing the experience that I had with EW was and is relevant to the op. You don't have to like it, and you have to right to criticize it, but as you can see, people will call you on it because you are the only one complaining about it and you work for EW.


Asking is fine, but chastising the first person who doesn't comply is another.


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## MichaelL (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> jcrosby @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > MichaelL @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> ...



Thanks Jay. My main MAC is a 2010 12 core. I'm probably making it a slave soon, and using the 2006 as a door stop.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

MichaelL @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > jcrosby @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> ...



Now Michael were you to make the 2010 12 core the slave with an SSD hooked up to the 2006 for the DAW, then Gold becomes _very_ realistic as a choice. But of course with the 2006 as your DAW your OS and DAW version choices become much more limited.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

jtnyc @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > jtnyc @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> ...



Agreed but how many times? Does it not at some point just become piling on? Doing so the first time is not the same thing as doing so ten times. 

And I reserve the right to chastise people who I think deserve chastising, just as I respect their right to chastise me.


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## HardyP (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ 2014-12-16 said:


> The gap is less on the PC than the Mac from what I have seen.


Jay, even higher than what we´ve seen in the video (being a PC setup)…? >8o 
Thats bad… VERY bad. Honestly, until today, I was biased towards EW, but…


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## vasio (Dec 16, 2014)

i love hollywood strings. ive got nothing personal against ew.

i'm staying with my original assessment: in my opinion, hollywood strings is to me one of the world's best sample libraries .... trapped in a sample player that is at best finicky and at worse so cpu hungry that it takes the joy out of using it. 

i wish it can be retooled for a better sample player. that is not personal or a personal attack. the crux of the problems plaguing EW (in my opinion) is PLAY. when HS works it is PHENOMENAL. its disheartening because in the effort to prevent piracy hence Play, its created a bigger problem: a huge divide with those who would probably be loyal customers.

there is no doubt that the production of EW sample libraries is second to none. 

Play is the problem. 

native instruments is stoney silent on how easily kontakt can be hacked. its what started this whole thing imo.


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## Mystic (Dec 16, 2014)

I would like to see more money thrown at Play to make it better. Just like in gaming, if your engine suffers, the game will also suffer. Going back to Kontakt I don't really see as a viable option at this point or anytime in the near future so they may as well try to turn Play into an amazing plugin before pumping out a bunch of new libraries.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

HardyP @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ 2014-12-16 said:
> 
> 
> > The gap is less on the PC than the Mac from what I have seen.
> ...



Hardy, I haven't watched it so I don't know. My approach is very pragmatic: I run what I can run on my system and if something isn't working to my satisfaction I either change my system or I don't use it.

Back when I had a 2006 Mac, I would not have run the Hollywood Series. Then I added a slave PC and I was happier and ran HS. By then HB came out and now I was not longer as happy. So I upgraded my main machine to a Mac Mini and I was happier. Then HOW came out and now I was no longer as happy. So I upgraded the Mini to an iMac and I was happier yet. Then HOP came out and now I as no longer as happy. So I upgraded my PC to one with more RAM and now I am even happier than I have ever been.

So yes, I threw money that I would have spent on competing libraries at the problem and the side benefit was that since I do not only use EW stuff., EVERYTHING ran better.

So my goal to help people now has nothing to do with how Play stacks up against Kontakt. For EW libraries you are going to have to use Play. That is a given. 

So if you like the sounds, the completeness, and the pricing you simply have to find out how much Play you can successfully run on your given rig and if it works for you, it works for you. If it doesn't, then you either upgrade or you look at the Play libraries and say, "It isn't for me."

No problem with that choice if that is the choice people make but I made the choices I would probably have made even if i did not work for EW. And lots of folks have, while others have not.

All fine.


----------



## olajideparis (Dec 16, 2014)

Hey Guy, 

I'm on Cubase 7.5.3, Play 4, VEP 5. When you say EVO "flashed" do you just mean the lastest version of the firmware?


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## jtnyc (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> jtnyc @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> ...



Well Great. I'm not interested in piling on, just fair play (no pun intended).


----------



## SDCP (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> SDCP @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > TheUnfinished @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> ...



You have a gift for the obvious. I'll save the forum some time and tell everyone exactly how that reflects on me. I'm a non-conformist who does not listen to someone handing me a dictate. I wasn't addressing you, I was addressing a comment by The Unfinished. And this is exactly the attitude that put me off of EW to begin with. If they don't agree with you, they tell you that it's YOUR fault.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 16, 2014)

olajideparis @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> Hey Guy,
> 
> I'm on Cubase 7.5.3, Play 4, VEP 5. When you say EVO "flashed" do you just mean the lastest version of the firmware?



Yes, exactly.

I think some people ran Play 4 ok on C7.x, but it always glitched for me even on idle. C8 might have side-stepped the whole issue though.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

SDCP @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > SDCP @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> ...



It doesn't matter, when you post in a forum you are addressing everyone by definition. And I gave up on "nobody can tell me what I can and cannot do" after I turned 17, but then, admittedly I m not a non-conformist and actually like boundaries and limits as long as they are consistent.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> olajideparis @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Guy,
> ...



Guy, I would like to know more about this and also if it is true on both platforms.

Jose' is a Cubase guy so I wonder why C7 was different for him than for you with Play.

Oy, so many variables on our rigs.


----------



## Guy Rowland (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> Guy, I would like to know more about this and also if it is true on both platforms.
> 
> Jose' is a Cubase guy so I wonder why C7 was different for him than for you with Play.
> 
> Oy, so many variables on our rigs.



Yes, I don't think it affected every Cubase 7 user, but as per our PM discussion it was certainly a known issue to EW. My specs are in the sig, let me know if you need any other details. Lots of variables for sure.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy, I would like to know more about this and also if it is true on both platforms.
> ...



But what is different in Cubase 8 that you think may have changed things?


----------



## jcrosby (Dec 16, 2014)

vasio @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> i love hollywood strings. ive got nothing personal against ew.
> 
> i'm staying with my original assessment: in my opinion, hollywood strings is to me one of the world's best sample libraries .... trapped in a sample player that is at best finicky and at worse so cpu hungry that it takes the joy out of using it.



Man if I could only be this eloquent. Extremely well put and the crux of this thread. o-[][]-o


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## olajideparis (Dec 16, 2014)

The main thing Steinberg did in the newest release is to focus on things under the hood rather than adding lots of new features, so efficiency especially for larger projects is among one of the improvements listed in Cubase 8.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

olajideparis @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> The main thing Steinberg did in the newest release is to focus on things under the hood rather than adding lots of new features, so efficiency especially for larger projects is among one of the improvements listed in Cubase 8.


i 

If someone in LA has Cubase 8 and any of the Hollywood Series, I would appreciate an invite to your studio.


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## JohnG (Dec 16, 2014)

jcrosby @ 16th December 2014 said:


> vasio @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > i love hollywood strings. ive got nothing personal against ew.
> ...



Pardon me, but it is hardly "the crux of this thread." Plenty of people in this thread, including me, have posted that they've been using HS with no problems.

[note: I have received free products from East West]


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## HardyP (Dec 16, 2014)

olajideparis @ 2014-12-16 said:


> The main thing Steinberg did in the newest release is to focus on things under the hood rather than adding lots of new features, so efficiency especially for larger projects is among one of the improvements listed in Cubase 8.


…which would be a great move for Play, too. (since I did not yet write anything to Santa Claus this year - maybe I have one wish free for this X-Mas ...)


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 16, 2014)

olajideparis @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> The main thing Steinberg did in the newest release is to focus on things under the hood rather than adding lots of new features, so efficiency especially for larger projects is among one of the improvements listed in Cubase 8.



Indeed, I think some pretty fundamental changes were made to the audio engine, even aside from asioguard. Also there have been a lot of changes to the graphics / UI - that might not seem so relevant, but I've recently become aware that graphics issues can have an unintended impact on audio issues (this from the man who has to have a DVD in the drive to get a decent asio performance from his rig!).

I know there's a graphics glitch with Play and C8, and it's not unique to Play either. C8 is a great release, but certainly looking forward to 8.0.1.


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## alextone (Dec 16, 2014)

It's a shame that there's no linux version of play (no ilok in linux), or indeed kontakt (Only runs in Wine/Linux). 

We alien/human hybrids in linux have the opportunity to provide extensive feedback in crash logs, terminal output, chroot environments, and many other tools of examination that are frequently used to provide devs with data that is extremely useful in tracking down bugs, testing algorithms, and so on.

Were i to run a native linux version of play, for example, and there were problems, i'd put it through the mill, in co-operation with the devs, and provide as much log and data feedback as i could, with the shared goal of improving the software. Tools like Valgrind and gdb provide valuable insights into what's actually going on.

Are there no tools in win and mac, where the user can do the same? As this thread is predominately about EW, how willing would the company be to accept this data from the users, toward a mutually beneficial end result?

Maybe there's another way to look at this, to the benefit of all?

Alex.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 16, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> I do have the big Diamond version, I think. It's the first one that came out, in a box with a red curtain.
> 
> But really how many articulations you have loaded shouldn't really make a lot of difference, since you're not playing them all at once. They just use more memory.



Nick, isn't Diamond 24 bit and Gold 16 bit? I can't find the info on the website but something rings in memory.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > I do have the big Diamond version, I think. It's the first one that came out, in a box with a red curtain.
> ...



I am not Nick , but yes that is correct.


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## José Herring (Dec 16, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy, I would like to know more about this and also if it is true on both platforms.
> ...



José hated C7 so stayed on C6.5. José also didn't find anything appealing about Play 4 so he's still on Play 3.

I think that José should just keep his trap shut because he's always believed that if it ain't broke don't go upgrading. :mrgreen: 

Though José fell in love with C8pro and when he gets it, I'm sure he'll have plenty to complain about, the smug bastard.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 16, 2014)

24 bit vs 16 bit ... Ah ok, then a Diamond test would be interesting indeed.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 16, 2014)

That's what I did - the Diamond test.


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## jtnyc (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> SDCP @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> ...



And you continue to belittle people with statements like that. 

Who's boundaries and limits? Yours? Too funny.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 16, 2014)

@ Nick
OK thanks, now I got it. I somehow thought you used Gold for the test and had Diamond in the drawer. My fault.


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## Diffusor (Dec 16, 2014)

josejherring @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> That's the point and why these discussions are so irritating. It's long been established that Play is more efficient on PC. It's also been established that Play is less efficient than Kontakt.
> 
> So what's the point?
> 
> Those of us that have taken the "high road" have moved beyond this and have realized, OK, if you want to use HS you have to do certain things with your setup to make it work right. That's just the way it is. If you're unwilling to do these things then use something else.



The point is hired spinmasters like Jay keep denying and trying to squelch the obvious observations pretty much everyone makes, rather than EW just admitting there is a problem and just go about getting it fixed. I see that Doug in another thread has announced they hired some "top-notch" programmers to finally finish Play Pro. That's a good step. That's a lot better than hiring 80k a year in LA programmers, the benefits of which we have all seen.


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## Diffusor (Dec 16, 2014)

LoungeLizard96 @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Does any Kontakt library have a 1 GB patch?
> ...



Indeed. This is the point I was getting at early. BS is just as demanding as HS with its powerful system patches. I had the 1st Violins legato patch of BS loaded early this evening at a 18k buffer and 1.93 gbs was loaded in Kontakt. and it runs flawlessly with all 6 mic perspectives loaded.


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## Diffusor (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> I am sorry to hear that and if I can help, let me know.



Still the same 3 to 4 discontent people you keep harping about?


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## NYC Composer (Dec 16, 2014)

I had skipped this fascinating dust-up for a few days, then came back to find page 15!! 
I am...speechless. So I'll type. :wink: 

I just had the most alarming thought..it went like this..

"OMG, during the half hour I wasted reading this, I could have loaded my template and written some music!!"

Off I go.


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## Diffusor (Dec 16, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> I had skipped this fascinating dust-up for a few days, then came back to find page 15!!
> I am...speechless. So I'll type. :wink:
> 
> I just had the most alarming thought..it went like this..
> ...



If it was a template with PLAY then no you couldn't, unless of course you are a real slow reader..


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## NYC Composer (Dec 16, 2014)

Diffusor @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > I had skipped this fascinating dust-up for a few days, then came back to find page 15!!
> ...



"I think I'm out, but they PULL me back in..."

It IS a template with a fair amount of Play-1st and 2nd violins, violas, cellos and basses with 5 artics each, French horns with a few arts, Trombones with five arts, solo bone with 4, trumpets with three arts, solo trumpet with 3 arts, then all the Sample Modeling orch horns and a bunch of dribs and drabs. Loads in about two minutes from a Samsung SSD and a Crucial SSD. Now shhh... :wink:


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## StatKsn (Dec 16, 2014)

I wrote this a few pages ago in light of jcrosby's benchmarking, but Play's CPU usage is twice as much as Kontakt (or, many other VSTs) even when it's idling with no patch loaded - 30 empty Play 4 x64 instances uses up to 20-23% @ 3930k in contrast to only 10-12% with 30 empty Kontakt 5 x64 instances. I think this should be investigated from EW's side.


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## jcrosby (Dec 16, 2014)

Diffusor @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > I had skipped this fascinating dust-up for a few days, then came back to find page 15!!
> ...



*Since Jay's a fan of hard proof: * 

I just did a screen capture of Play Loading 135 instruments and reporting about 15.5 Gigs between VEP and PLay Memory Server in Activity monitor.

All but 3 patches were loaded from an OWC Acelsior E2 PCIe drive which has 2.5 times the read speed as my Kontakt SSD (on a standard SATA II bus.)

*Total loading time? 50:47 >8o *

And to boot, it took about 3-4 minutes to UNLOAD ~o) 

I'm doing a screen capture of a Kontakt VEP MFrame that weighs in around 30 Gigs and roughly 240 instruments next.

I'll post a link to the video once I get it online… most likely tomorrow sometime…
There will screen captures of drive benchmarks just so the good folks at EW can rest assured there's no hocus locus going on on my end :wink:


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## StatKsn (Dec 16, 2014)

Shouldn't we start the Play benchmark thread? This thread is getting too long and too much fire.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

jcrosby @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> Diffusor @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> ...



It depends on how you set it up. My 31.8 GB Hollywood series VE Pro PC template with 31 v-frames, each with 1 instance of Play with an average of six articulations, about half with 2 mic positions, the rest 1, and it just loaded from my two SSDs in* 5:06[/b]. It takes 49 seconds to exit the m-frame. It shows idlleing CP usage of 3 %. See pic.*


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## José Herring (Dec 16, 2014)

jcrosby @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> Diffusor @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> ...



Is this Mac or PC? 

I use a similar amount of HS and HB and my template takes about 5 minutes to load. Which if you're attention challenged and impatient like me, that's excruciatingly long.

If you're using a Mac though, it's long been established that Play doesn't work that great on a Mac. So you're beating a dead horse already. If you're using a PC, then, wow, you've got some serious problems with your setup.


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## StatKsn (Dec 16, 2014)

I believe jcrosby is using Mac (he attached Mac screenshot in the page 9). OTOH EW Lurker's result above is PC.


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## FriFlo (Dec 17, 2014)

JohnG @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> jcrosby @ 16th December 2014 said:
> 
> 
> > vasio @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> ...


Are you kidding? You read through this thread and honestly think there are a lot of people in defense of them? I can only see Jay's posts all over the place (doesn't count, as he's an employee), yours (you got free products, well ...), then there are some people with something like 1 - 10 posts on this forum (hmmm...?) and lastly, some people say, the samples sound good, but it's so unfortunate, they are in play ... That against a majority of bad opinions about the company in general, probably even counting Jays ridiculous amount of posts ... Where is your objectivity? aren't you a moderator of this forum? Well ... Probably a lost cause with you ... I just can't leave such a strange note unanswered.


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## José Herring (Dec 17, 2014)

I've been using HS with no problems.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 17, 2014)

FriFlo @ Wed Dec 17 said:


> Are you kidding? You read through this thread and honestly think there are a lot of people in defense of them? I can only see Jay's posts all over the place (doesn't count, as he's an employee), yours (you got free products, well ...), then there are some people with something like 1 - 10 posts on this forum (hmmm...?) and lastly, some people say, the samples sound good, but it's so unfortunate, they are in play ... That against a majority of bad opinions about the company in general, probably even counting Jays ridiculous amount of posts ... Where is your objectivity? aren't you a moderator of this forum? Well ... Probably a lost cause with you ... I just can't leave such a strange note unanswered.



Ahem.

It's not quite how I've read this thread. No-one can claim to be objective of course, and I no more so than anyone else, so maybe it is I who have it wrong. FWIW, here's how I'd summarise the past 15 pages.

1. Historically, plenty of people have had bad experiences with EW as a company, and Play as an engine. Some have shrugged that off, others have no desire to do so.

2. The specs quoted to run the Hollywood series (especially Strings) are questionable, especially for mac users - the jury is still out.

3. Most people think Play has improved over time. Some still strongly dislike it, others have systems and / or workflows that make them perfectly happy with it.

4. Most people think sonically EW is good stuff.

5. As an EW rep, Jay remains a divisive figure.

There are plenty here on the forums who very much like EW's products. Nobody can tell them that they don't really - honestly, they do. From reading around, if you threw even HS diamond into a highly specced dedicated PC via VE Pro, you'll likely have few or no performance issues. Whether or not you want to invest a lot of money into that hardware and that particular workflow is a major question, but some do so (and probably do run other libraries off it too, maybe even Hollywood ones).

For me, I've gone back and forth. I've found Play exasperating (in the early days to the point of violence - I still remember the euphoria of 1.2.5). As mentioned here, even recently in C7 it's caused me grief. Along with many, I wish they'd just throw Play out the window and sign over to Kontakt, which we're repeatedly told will never happen (despite my little poll showing overwhelmingly that ex customers would return if they did so). Since it's seemingly with us until the end of time, I wish it had sample purge with seamless loading on the fly, but background loading on startup has helped and I resent it less than I used to. It runs very nicely for me in VE Pro. I don't care at all for the corporate attitude or the soundsonline forum, and I can perfectly understand those whose fingers got burned or chopped clean off not wanting to go back.

Does all that leave me for or against? Only you can decide, fellow forum-member. FWIW, I feel in the middle really. Most products aren't worth the hassle relative to alternatives in my case, but I'm pretty well stocked for libraries and doing moderately well in my health battles with GAS. But I do have a few older libs (SO percussion still rocks) and also Hollywood Brass Gold. And if HBG f it's on offer you'd be hard pressed to find a better bargain in all Sampledom (well ok, alongside VSL basic woods SE). Oh, and it's not especially taxing on resources.


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## StatKsn (Dec 17, 2014)

I think, at this point, EW Lurker's sloppy internet behavior is way more problematic for EW than anything else. Especially when he can't stop getting off-topic, then tries too hard to control the topic, which only derails even further, and having so much freudian slips like calling EW's own very customers a loser. It's something I haven't seen past the BBS/newsgroup era. Um, serisouly though, all the typo-loaded replies are telling me that he might want to take a forum break before his heart breaks. Good for him this forum is not Twitter, where people being infinitely more brutal for corporate reps o-[][]-o

(I know you are passing suggestions to the leads, helping people solve their problems. It's good. Just relax and let go)


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## TheUnfinished (Dec 17, 2014)

In an effort to show that I'm not just hear to grind my axe...

Would it not be an idea, Jay, to put together a video, showing everyone the components of the rig you use your many East West libraries on? Go through the tech specs, show how you have your templates/projects set up, show the performance of it?

That way, you could come into these threads and link to it, rather than fire fighting every comment that comes in. With a bit of luck, the comments afterwards would be focused on the content of your video and not much else.

Maybe even, East West might put the video on their own YouTube channel and people would be able to go to it directly, before harrassing you for answers!

Worth consideration?


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## jcrosby (Dec 17, 2014)

josejherring @ Wed Dec 17 said:


> jcrosby @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > If you're using a Mac though, it's long been established that Play doesn't work that great on a Mac. So you're beating a dead horse already. If you're using a PC, then, wow, you've got some serious problems with your setup.



Mac. The only way this template is playable is with the engine set to high and the buffer size set to 512 samples, which is ridiculous. Anything other than that and half way into an arrangement it's unplayable. The picture I posted with CPU at 587.5% was with lower settings… Us Mac fellas did indeed get a raw deal… 

And fine, it's been established it runs like crap on Mac. That's fantastic. How does that change the issue that it shouldn't be sold without explicit notation that a PC is strongly recommended. 

The real point here is this.. if it doesn't work properly on Mac don't sell it as Mac compatible, or fix it. 

When every other piece of software performs equally to its PC counterpart, there's only one culprit, the code needs work not my machine. Smart companies Like Cakewalk or MOTU know their limits and don't step into the water until the software is ready….


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 17, 2014)

At the risk of annoying everyone on the forum yet again, this is another area apart from no right to sell second hand, where software customers get a much worse deal than hardware customers.

Any hardware product has to be 'fit for purpose' i.e. do the job including all the features and functions it was advertised and sold as doing, and all these functions need to be working when you first buy it. If not you can get a refund.

No doubt I'll get panned for pointing this out, but whatever! :D


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## FriFlo (Dec 17, 2014)

Guy: I don't disagree. There are some people having a good opinion about EW, especially sonically. There are even some people saying, they have not had any problems with play. But I think it is hard to deny, that no other developer manages to gather such a huge amount of shit storm threads due to play, their pricing policies and their forum. Have you ever seen a thread, with so many people chiming in with negativity? Ever heard more people saying, they will never ever buy a product from them? I didn't and if you did, please point me to it.


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## AC986 (Dec 17, 2014)

I'm waiting for my dog to die so I can shoot myself.

Olive Kitteridge


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## Stephen Rees (Dec 17, 2014)

"How often misused words generate misleading thoughts" - Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)

A quote from the VI Forum home page.


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## semo (Dec 17, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Wed Dec 17 said:


> In an effort to show that I'm not just hear to grind my axe...
> 
> Would it not be an idea, Jay, to put together a video, showing everyone the components of the rig you use your many East West libraries on? Go through the tech specs, show how you have your templates/projects set up, show the performance of it?
> 
> ...



+1 That would be much better than the chorus of "It works for me...". It just adds fire to frustration for those who couldn't make it work--and these are people who've spent their money on EW already!


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## blougui (Dec 17, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Wed Dec 17 said:


> In an effort to show that I'm not just *hear* to grind my axe...



Nice  Beware not to cut your ears with this well grinded tool !


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 17, 2014)

jcrosby @ Wed Dec 17 said:


> josejherring @ Wed Dec 17 said:
> 
> 
> > jcrosby @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> ...



Can you either zip and email me you Mac template or list what is in it and how it is set up so I can try it on my iMac?

And remind me again of your machine's specifics and host please.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 17, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Wed Dec 17 said:


> In an effort to show that I'm not just hear to grind my axe...
> 
> Would it not be an idea, Jay, to put together a video, showing everyone the components of the rig you use your many East West libraries on? Go through the tech specs, show how you have your templates/projects set up, show the performance of it?
> 
> ...



I am not a video guy, Matt, but I have listed my specs and explained how I have set it up, added screenshots , tons of times before. I use VE Pro which does a better job with Play than any DAW, and does a better job with Kontakt than any DAW, and does a better job with Omnisphere than any DAW, etc.

Maybe I could make a PDF explaining the basics but as VE Pro is not an EastWest product it cannot be official.

And not, I am not saying that you cannot run Play directly in a host, of course you can, but the results with VE Pro will be better. And again the same is true of Kpontakt, which is why I get hired by composers to set up VE Pro not only for Play but also Kontakt and sometimes only Kontakt.


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## Mike Connelly (Dec 17, 2014)

530 posts in this thread so far.

If PLAY ran on mac as well as it ran on PC, there probably wouldn't even be discussions like this.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 17, 2014)

I too would like to chime in and reiterate many things that have been said before in this thread, only more emphatically and with the belief that my post is going to be the one that resolves everything because I understand what nobody else does and by the way here is some more useless banter.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 17, 2014)

Olive Kitteridge was really good, eh Adrian? We watched the final episode last night.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 17, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Dec 17 said:


> Olive Kitteridge was really good, eh Adrian? We watched the final episode last night.



I just finished the book and it is even better.


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## AC986 (Dec 17, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Dec 17 said:


> Olive Kitteridge was really good, eh Adrian? We watched the final episode last night.



Yes but I have issues with certain things as you can well imagine Nick. Hehe.


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## GdT (Dec 18, 2014)

Is there any feature of VI Forum whereby I can filter out posts from a certain contributor?
Then I might be able to see some unbiased contributions and not have to plod through a load of .....


----------



## José Herring (Dec 18, 2014)

GdT @ Thu Dec 18 said:


> Is there any feature of VI Forum whereby I can filter out posts from a certain contributor?
> Then I might be able to see some unbiased contributions and not have to plod through a load of .....



Just skip over all post by that José Herring guy. You know he's full of it.


----------



## David Gosnell (Dec 18, 2014)

GdT @ Thu Dec 18 said:


> Is there any feature of VI Forum whereby I can filter out posts from a certain contributor?
> Then I might be able to see some unbiased contributions and not have to plod through a load of .....



This is a thread asking for people's opinions about East West products. What exactly were you expecting to be plodding through? :wink:


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## AC986 (Dec 18, 2014)

The views on this thread are closely tracking the Nikkei index.

I'm betting this can break the 20 K barrier.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 18, 2014)

This is the song that never ends
Yes it goes on and on my friend
Some people started singing it
Not knowing what it was
But people kept singing it just because

This is the song that never ends
Yes it goes on and on my friend
Some people started singing it
Not knowing what it was
But people kept singing it just because

This is the song that never ends
Yes it goes on and on my friend
Some people started singing it
Not knowing what it was
But people kept singing it just because

This is the song that never ends
Yes it goes on and on my friend
Some people started singing it
Not knowing what it was
But people kept singing it just because

This is the song that never ends
Yes it goes on and on my friend
Some people started singing it
Not knowing what it was
But people kept singing it just because

This is the song that never ends
Yes it goes on and on my friend
Some people started singing it
Not knowing what it was
But people kept singing it just because


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 18, 2014)

This is the song that never ends
Yes it goes on and on my friend
Some people started singing it
Not knowing what it was
But people kept singing it just because

This is the song that never ends
Yes it goes on and on my friend
Some people started singing it
Not knowing what it was
But people kept singing it just because

This is the song that never ends
Yes it goes on and on my friend
Some people started singing it
Not knowing what it was
But people kept singing it just because

This is the song that never ends
Yes it goes on and on my friend
Some people started singing it
Not knowing what it was
But people kept singing it just because

This is the song that never ends
Yes it goes on and on my friend
Some people started singing it
Not knowing what it was
But people kept singing it just because

This is the song that never ends
Yes it goes on and on my friend
Some people started singing it
Not knowing what it was
But people kept singing it just because


----------



## NYC Composer (Dec 18, 2014)

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
How hard is it for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven?
Why does one park in a driveway and drive on a parkway?
How many times can Nick post The Song that Never Ends?


(Oh, and...how many pages can a V.I. thread go on until it becomes a novel?)


----------

