# Source for orchestral score reductions



## shomynik (Jul 26, 2018)

A fast search hasn't brought much...

Does anyone have a good source for those? I'm interested in everything, paid or free, classical and film?

Full scores are of course important for orchestration study, but they are just too large for me when I just want to comprehend harmonic and contrapuntal progressions, to study, well... music.


----------



## fretti (Jul 26, 2018)

This:
https://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page
was mentioned in an orchestration course I am taking; you really have to dig and search for "useful" things, but they should have at least all big names in classical music


----------



## aaronventure (Jul 26, 2018)

shomynik said:


> Full scores are of course important for orchestration study, but they are just too large for me when I just want to comprehend harmonic and contrapuntal progressions, to study, well... music.



I used to think the same as you. Later on, I realized that composition and orchestration are actually the same thing and if you're listening to orchestral music, you should transcribe/study it as such for maximum effect. I noticed the insane improvement the moment I started doing that.

Because different instruments have different sounds and expressions, and the piano reduction you come up with/find is not what the original composer had first envisioned, and probably not even close to what their first noodlings on the piano looked like when they were composing the piece.

Sure, you'll go through the scores faster, (I was doing my own piano reductions), but that doesn't necessarily mean you'll absorb nearly as much.

An orchestral piece wasn't written for piano (solely). These middle chords in that part over there can't be brass, the composer wrote "Strings"! Brass and strings are two completely different colors! So you shouldn't disregard it all and bring it down to the piano, and look at it like that.

Study it like it's written. The idea is to be able to internalize the entire orchestra and have the whole process be internal (I mean, it sort of always is, but to be able to internally compose and completely orchestrate a piece requires practice).

I'm sorry that this post of mine instead took to telling you what I think you should do. Even though it's obvious, I'll nevertheless say that these are just my opinions. I do, however, stand by everything that I've said and I've written this not just for you, but for anyone else who reads this and is on the fence. If this makes you at least wonder about, if not realize what the potential for learning in full score transcription/study is, then it'll be worth it for me. Because you can learn so, _so_ much more than from simple piano reductions that were _not_ done by the original composer.

Now to actually provide you with an answer, you can look into *piano songbooks on Hal Leonard or Sheet Music Plus*. And I'll just say again that it's very unlikely these were done by the original composer (can't help myself, sorry!).


----------



## bryla (Jul 26, 2018)

This doesn't answer your question but is far more valuable:

The study lies in doing the work yourself. You don't absorb anything by looking at the end result of what someone has done. Nothing! You need to do the hard work and have all your own personal 'eureka' moments. These are the moments you learn from. Even if that means spending one hour on reducing a single bar to a three stave system of melody/harmony for example.

If you feel like The Planets is too overwhelming (much of the time it's 30 staves I guess) or The Rite Of Spring too complicated (none of the notes on the first page alone are sounding pitches, I think) start with Mozart. A couple of staves for woodwinds (only clarinets if any are transposing) - maybe some brass and timpani - and a handful of staves for strings. You'll quickly get to recognize the roles of melody, harmony, countermelody, bass in small scores like that and strengthening this skill makes you ready to tackle bigger scores. But you need to reduce them yourself.

If you simply want to know 'what is the melody and the chords' then play with it on the piano!

I mean put it on (maybe loop a section – I use Transcribe! for this) and try to play the melody along with it. Find the key center and try to figure out the chords to it. Not to be able to play the whole orchestral arrangement but with whatever your keyboard skills might be playing the melody in the right hand and chords in the left and having it done precise enough so that your friends would recognize which tune you play.

Do this not only with orchestral music but with simple pop tunes! I started doing this with Britney Spears songs in the late 90's and it took me a couple of years to learn not to hear the fifth as the root for example. This along with simple sight singing exercises has meant that now I can transcribe music simply by ear alone (well tonal music anyway).

Do any of this 10 minutes every day. Every. Day.


----------



## shomynik (Jul 26, 2018)

Maan, you guys are so right! Thx for the replies, btw!

I'm a classical pianist (16 years of classical study...then teaching piano to kids for 7 years) and I'm doing video game music for past 6 years. I haven't done much of the orchestral transcriptions but I did a LOT of blues/jazz/rnr/pop at time when I was playing music for living, so transcribing is not a problem for me. 

But I kind of wished to be able to easily have all the lines of the orchestral piece under my fingers, it would be much more natural for me as i find the tall score sheet a bit hard to pick all up...as you imagine, i'm too used to two-bar sheets 

But I TOTALLY dig what you guys are saying, a million reasons why one SHOULD PRECISELY go harder route. And I imagine, after a while, it becomes a second nature...just as me with two-bar score 

Thank you!


----------



## Farkle (Jul 26, 2018)

shomynik said:


> Maan, you guys are so right! Thx for the replies, btw!
> 
> I'm a classical pianist (16 years of classical study...then teaching piano to kids for 7 years) and I'm doing video game music for past 6 years. I haven't done much of the orchestral transcriptions but I did a LOT of blues/jazz/rnr/pop at time when I was playing music for living, so transcribing is not a problem for me.
> 
> ...



To double up on what Bryla says... yes, transcribe, reduce yourself. That is the act of assimilating what a composer did (reading the score), and "creating it" yourself (copying it down). There's an apocryphal story that Wagner learned to orchestrate by copying every note down from all 9 of Beethoven's Symphonies. And, Wagner is definitely considered an orchestral powerhouse.

If you want to see an example of how I transcribe, here's one of my Farkle Fridays where I "pull back the curtain" and transcribe a chunk of the "Tales of a Jedi Knight" cue from Star Wars. 



Mike


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Jul 26, 2018)

shomynik said:


> Maan, you guys are so right! Thx for the replies, btw!
> 
> I'm a classical pianist (16 years of classical study...then teaching piano to kids for 7 years) and I'm doing video game music for past 6 years. I haven't done much of the orchestral transcriptions but I did a LOT of blues/jazz/rnr/pop at time when I was playing music for living, so transcribing is not a problem for me.
> 
> ...



Your first opening comment and this one are such contradicting to put it mild... Its baffling me on a personal level.. However you got some good advice here and hopefully it motivates you.


----------



## shomynik (Jul 26, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Your first opening comment and this one are such contradicting to put it mild... Its baffling me on a personal level.. However you got some good advice here and hopefully it motivates you.



Hey Alexander! 

I'm not sure what's contradicting to you? As I mentioned, I haven't done much orchestral transcribing, and every time I open the orchestral sheet it's overwhelming to me as I am very used to easily real-time read and play sheets ...although piano ones.

In my first post I considered a shortcut for faster orch score study by directly playing, and some of the more experienced guys has just straightened me up, for which I'm incredibly great full (this forum, maan...). I am not a novice and I realized right away what are they talking about...that's all. 

Maybe I'm not getting where you are coming from, though...


----------



## shomynik (Jul 26, 2018)

Ok... I now realized that I'm using term "transcription" wrong.

So, the only transcriptions (as in writing sheets) I have ever done are those in my studies, and other music (jazz, blues, pop) I was always learning by listening, picking it up by ear and playing it... that includes orchestral, classical and film music, or any other... But for me that's kind of the same as it's very easy to write it down once one get it...if one knows notation of course.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Jul 26, 2018)

shomynik said:


> Hey Alexander!
> 
> I'm not sure what's contradicting to you? As I mentioned, I haven't done much orchestral transcribing, and every time I open the orchestral sheet it's overwhelming to me as I am very used to easily real-time read and play sheets ...although piano ones.
> 
> ...



That was contradicting and a bit baffling to me:
"I'm a classical pianist (16 years of classical study...then teaching piano to kids for 7 years) and I'm doing video game music for past 6 years. I haven't done much of the orchestral transcriptions but I did a LOT of blues/jazz/rnr/pop at time when I was playing music for living, so transcribing is not a problem for me. "

versus your second part of your first post:

"Full scores are of course important for orchestration study, but they are just too large for me when I just want to comprehend harmonic and contrapuntal progressions, to study, well... music."

That was very contradicting for me to read and so I was baffled how someone can talk of himself to be a pianist and have 16 years of classical study plus teaching kids for 7 years, and doing video game music for 6 years but not able to comprehend orchestral scores and their harmonic progressions? I have not done that things (16 years, + teaching for 7 years) but can comprehend at least a decent of amount of scores, so I was wondering what kind of way you went 16 years to ask things like that? What is then classical study for 16 years in your case? But maybe you are referring to jazz/blues/ rock stuff then that make more sense ? (still not to me because a lot of things in blues, big band, jazz has commonalities with orchestral music)


----------



## Parsifal666 (Jul 26, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> That was contradicting and a bit baffling to me:
> "I'm a classical pianist (16 years of classical study...then teaching piano to kids for 7 years) and I'm doing video game music for past 6 years. I haven't done much of the orchestral transcriptions but I did a LOT of blues/jazz/rnr/pop at time when I was playing music for living, so transcribing is not a problem for me. "
> 
> versus your second part of your first post:
> ...



I agree, that went over my head too.


----------



## shomynik (Jul 26, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> That was contradicting and a bit baffling to me:
> "I'm a classical pianist (16 years of classical study...then teaching piano to kids for 7 years) and I'm doing video game music for past 6 years. I haven't done much of the orchestral transcriptions but I did a LOT of blues/jazz/rnr/pop at time when I was playing music for living, so transcribing is not a problem for me. "
> 
> versus your second part of your first post:
> ...



Hm, but where have I said that I'm not able to comprehend orchestral score Alexander? You misunderstood me, English is not my native language, maybe I wasn't clear... and sorry for baffling you on personal level 



AlexanderSchiborr said:


> What is then classical study for 16 years in your case? But maybe you are referring to jazz/blues/ rock stuff?



Those 16 years were full classical studies, starting at age 8. I hold a bachelor in classical studies as a pianist - I realize that that can mean different things around the world, but knowing you're in Germany, it's exactly the same thing. And to be more precise - foe example, for my final exam I played Rach 2, concert for piano and orchestra. I was good  Now? After ten years? I'm crap man haha... and jazz/blues was just one of the things I was very interested in as well.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Jul 26, 2018)

shomynik said:


> Hm, but where have I said that I'm not able to comprehend orchestral score Alexander? You misunderstood me, I just wanted to English is not my native language, maybe I wasn't clear... and sorry for baffling you on personal level
> 
> 
> 
> Those 16 years were full classical studies, starting at age 8. I hold a bachelor in classical studies as a pianist - I realize that that can mean different things around the world, but knowing you're in Germany, it's exactly the same thing. And to be more precise - foe example, for my final exam I played Rach 2, concert for piano and orchestra. I was good  Now? After ten years? I'm crap man haha... and jazz/blues was just one of the things I was very interested in as well.



English is neither my native language too, it seems we both need a communicator from Star Trek, right? .Again to quote you:

"Full scores are of course important for orchestration study, but they are just *too large for me when I just want to comprehend harmonic and contrapuntal progressions*, to study, well... music."

My interpretation of you saying that was that it seems *you can´t understand orchestral scores but mentioning you had 16 years of classical study baffled me to read then*. It seems I understood it wrong, so whats your point then trying to explain or to know? You can understand orchestral scores, but they are too large so that you can´t comprehend their harmonic / contrapunctual frame? Hmm, okay, I don´t get that. So where is the problem? You should be able to sight-read. You performed Rach 2? Wow, thanks for letting me know that you were even good. Congratulations.!

PS: I know my name!  Whats yours?


----------



## shomynik (Jul 26, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> English is neither my native language too, it seems we both need a communicator from Star Trek, right?.Again to quote you:
> 
> "Full scores are of course important for orchestration study, but they are just *too large for me when I just want to comprehend harmonic and contrapuntal progressions*, to study, well... music."
> 
> ...



Ouch man...I didn't mean to praise my self or anything, just wanted to explain where I'm coming from...sheeesh

My ability to play piano worth so little to me right now... anybody can do it, it just happened to me that I was doing it a long time, that's all, nothing to praise about...

*too large = too tall page*... as in - I often have to scroll so to pick all the notes playing at the same time, and one can't play with two hands and scroll at the same time.

Milos


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Jul 26, 2018)

shomynik said:


> Ouch man...I didn't mean to praise my self or anything, just wanted to explain where I'm coming from...sheeesh
> 
> My ability to play piano worth so little to me right now... anybody can do it, it just happened to me that I was doing it a long time, that's all, nothing to praise about...
> 
> ...



Ah but that is a bit different now, so you have problems with that. I can understand that quite well now . Well, a common approach I do is that I look what elements are what. There is often a mainline, supporting chords , bass. Why not highlighting those things with colors then (colorful markers are my choice )? I do that here and there just to keep on track. Just different colors: one for the melody and main line + all doublers, one for chords / harmonic outliners, one for the bass stuff. That could help. Also you could look at reduced versions of the scores or create your own smaller versions based on my approach with the colors.


----------



## Saxer (Jul 26, 2018)

Look at this page... great score reductions here to follow with the music.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk_jzTmW2Fmfnm70c2kZHpQ


----------



## shomynik (Jul 26, 2018)

Saxer said:


> Look at this page... great score reductions here to follow with the music.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk_jzTmW2Fmfnm70c2kZHpQ



Thanks Saxer. That channel is precisely where I got the idea for the score reductions


----------



## aaronventure (Jul 27, 2018)

shomynik said:


> I often have to scroll so to pick all the notes playing at the same time, and one can't play with two hands and scroll at the same time.



Get a monitor that can rotate and turn it by 90 degrees. I have a 25" Dell, and it's fantastic. Score reading, engraving in Sibelius and coding is much easier. Also MIDI editing, since CC lanes would take up my entire horizontal screen


----------



## shomynik (Jul 27, 2018)

aaronventure said:


> Get a monitor that can rotate and turn it by 90 degrees. I have a 25" Dell, and it's fantastic. Score reading, engraving in Sibelius and coding is much easier. Also MIDI editing, since CC lanes would take up my entire horizontal screen



Absolutely! Maan, I'm so looking forward to 4k monitor for multiple reasons, but cc lanes are a HUGE one!  ...as well as score reading


----------



## dawelsch (Jan 5, 2019)

Transcribing scores yourself is obviously valuable, but it’s also important to see examples, if only for learning the mechanics. For a HUGE collection, with recordings, I suggest The Norton Scores.


----------

