# Are premium plugins…underrated?



## musiccorner (Aug 24, 2021)

Hello friends!

Before you call me crazy, let me explain.

Back when I started, 12 years ago, after about 2 years just using stock and free plugins, the first plugin that i bought (Waves R-Vox) just blew my mind!

As an exercise, I could get closer with two compressors, a little bit of saturation and EQ, but having that “sounds like a record” with just one knob felt like cheating.

Today I see the “stock plugins only” and “plugins are overrated” trend all over the internet.

I get the intention and that is good: stop the GAS and work on your skills first, but maybe we’ve gone too far on depreciating premium plugins?

Yes! You can make an great job with the tools you already have. Just need to learn them and practice!

But, after that, to “get there” faster having access to the tools that have their fingerprints all over music hits that we listen to is not awesome?

Considering the price of analog gear, I think premium plugins are part of the democratization of mixing.

They’re not the enemy.

“One good engineer with stock plugins will get better results than the bad engineer with premium plugins.”

That’s true, but on the other side, one good engineer with the tools that he knows and loves will mix 3x faster and with more inspiration.

That doesn’t lead to a better mix?

And, on top of that, here’s the bad news: one bad engineer with premium plugins will sound better than a bad engineer with stock plugins.

Practice and knowledge are the biggest difference makers in this game.

But the tools also make their difference.

Are premium plugins not getting the love they deserve?

What do you think?


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## José Herring (Aug 24, 2021)

The quick answer to your question is "No". 

I once knew a french horn player and she was good, but not stellar. She had the idea to switch her mouthpiece and went on to win a major competition. She was good all along really and her equipment was holding her back. 

On the other hand if I picked up a french horn, I could have the best of everything equipment wise I'd still suck. 

On the other hand, I was or still am a very good clarinetist and saxophone player. I could make any decent Yamaha student clarinet sound good. I wouldn't want to. I can make a Buffet (top of the line) clarinet or Bachun sound much better. But, give that to an amateur and he couldn't usually make anything sound good. 

I've found for mixing it goes hand in hand. I've spent a lot of time learning to mix and master and use plugins. There's a lot of difference between Plugin Alliance and my stock plugins. A lot. I still use stock but in a supporting roll. On the major busses and the master buss I use the good stuff. 

Now prices vary and that's something else to consider. My Valhalla verb costing $50 and my R2 and R4 verbs I got on sale for around $19 are some of the best reverbs out there. But... I'm still getting Pro-R from Fabfilter. Much more expensive but it has somethings I think I'll need so I'm going to get that to.

The last factor is what your sound and heart and mind gravitate to. After all it is music. People love Bricasti and I went for a somewhat more expensive Bricasti replacement called Seventh Heaven. It's fucking great reverb. I see why people like it. I hate the shit. I don't know why I bought it. I don't like Bricasti. Much prefer Lexicon and TC Electronics. I'm wise enough to know that it's just me. Bricasti and Seventh Heaven are fanstic reverbs. They just ain't for me. 

I would suggest doing what I did. I just got a subscription to Plugin Alliance to "try before I buy" by comparing lots of plugins. The great ones stand out as stellar. You'll need choices. Not every tool works for every situation. So it's good to have a variety. But be warned. I was going to try before I buy certain plugins and I ended up liking so many that I'll never give them up. I'll have to be on the yearly wagon for a few years to use the voucher to get the things I want. I'm plotting and planning as we speak to figure out a way to get out of the subscription but it isn't going to happen soon.


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## musiccorner (Aug 24, 2021)

José Herring said:


> The quick answer to your question is "No".
> 
> I once knew a french horn player and she was good, but not stellar. She had the idea to switch her mouthpiece and went on to win a major competition. She was good all along really and her equipment was holding her back.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your addition.

By your arguments I got the impression that we’ve said similar things, but in different ways.

I wasn’t talking about “expensive” plug-ins, but premium, paid plugins (opposite to stock or free ones).

The taste, of course, plays a big role here (I love my Seventh Heaven Pro and don’t quite like the Lexicon vibe! 😅).


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## José Herring (Aug 24, 2021)

musiccorner said:


> Thank you for your addition.
> 
> By your arguments I got the impression that we’ve said similar things, but in different ways.
> 
> ...


The Premium paid plugins are only worth it if they are on deep deep sale


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## G_Erland (Aug 24, 2021)

I feel like one of my many audio-rabbit holes has been the «if the song is great, you can play, record and mix it on a vacuum cleaner» - message. Im interested in the question - i have no insight into code, so its weird to me that plugins sound different, because im thinking the math describing the physics should be the same…as far as a delay or a ratio or harmonics or whatever. But as far as cost…well it has to cost something…and the worth of a plugin to you is, as you say, a product of many factors. Plugin sales has me puzzled often as to how the discounts off list prices can be so huge. Eh…did i go off topic?


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## José Herring (Aug 24, 2021)

As far as bricasti. It's funny. I'm using 7th Heaven as my main reverb right now. I just can't say I'm fond of it. But it works. That's another thing. If it works, I'll put my personal feelings aside. 

I did an orchetral date and the engineer came in with this radiator looking contraption. I'm like ummmm..... What they hell is that? It was a digital Roland reverb from 1970's. I'm thinking dude that bullshit has got to go. Gimme my Lexi! But, I decided to give it a chance. Wasn't my favorite but it worked and he could use it well and the mix though I hated it at the time, I now consider the best mix of orchestra I have.


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## musiccorner (Aug 24, 2021)

G_Erland said:


> I feel like one of my many audio-rabbit holes has been the «if the song is great, you can play, record and mix it on a vacuum cleaner» - message. Im interested in the question - i have no insight into code, so its weird to me that plugins sound different, because im thinking the math describing the physics should be the same…as far as a delay or a ratio or harmonics or whatever. But as far as cost…well it has to cost something…and the worth of a plugin to you is, as you say, a product of many factors. Plugin sales has me puzzled often as to how the discounts off list prices can be so huge. Eh…did i go off topic?


Great point!


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## Crowe (Aug 24, 2021)

musiccorner said:


> And, on top of that, here’s the bad news: one bad engineer with premium plugins will sound better than a bad engineer with stock plugins.



I don't think this is true. At all.

If you don't know what you're doing, ozone can utterly screw up your mix. Any mishandled compressor, EQ or limiter can. A bad engineer is a bad engineer. Perhaps there are some fringe cases such as Gulfoss or something but I'm pretty sure even that one isn't immune to Bad Handling.

At that point, it doesn't matter whether you're using stock plugins or not. You might even make a case that more complicated plugins provide more freedom to induce chaos.

Anyway, the point is moot, because premium plugins are not underrated at all. I use everything that is Free and Awesome (tm) and yet still use quite a few premium plugins and have a pretty extensive wishlist.

I just really don't see the point of buying Fabfilter EQs at the moment, when Cubase's Equalizer is fantastic.

EDIT: There's an interesting thought to be had about the value of 'free', anyway. I wanted to write that 'nobody with half an ounce of sense would, for example, believe decent audio-restoration software comes in the free variety'.

And then I remembered that I got Ozone RX8 basic for free on pluginboutique and it served me wonderfully for ages.

Funny that. The expanded version is still on my wishlist, but its perceived increase in functionality and potential sound does not weight up to the cost of upgrading when there's other things that have priority. Do I underestimate the 'more premium' version? I think not. I just don't need it at the moment.


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## dzilizzi (Aug 24, 2021)

Well, also, 12 years ago, stock plugins kind of sucked. The stock stuff today is much better than it used to be. 

But there is also the fact that sometimes the premium plugins just make it easier to get a better sound, which, when you are learning, does encourage you to keep learning. (less early frustration) It is, however, better in the long run to improve your ears. If that makes sense.


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## musiccorner (Aug 24, 2021)

José Herring said:


> As far as bricasti. It's funny. I'm using 7th Heaven as my main reverb right now. I just can't say I'm fond of it. But it works. That's another thing. If it works, I'll put my personal feelings aside.
> 
> I did an orchetral date and the engineer came in with this radiator looking contraption. I'm like ummmm..... What they hell is that? It was a digital Roland reverb from 1970's. I'm thinking dude that bullshit has got to go. Gimme my Lexi! But, I decided to give it a chance. Wasn't my favorite but it worked and he could use it well and the mix though I hated it at the time, I now consider the best mix of orchestra I have.


Many thing can make great mixes, right? 

To be fair, I don’t hate Lexicon (who could?), but I just use them when I’m looking for that classic vibe or to be my “being there” verb.

What I love about SHP is the ability of being putting you on a space and, at the same time, getting out of the way.

The short ambiences, specially, OMG, I don’t know how they do it! And there’s no phasing at all!


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## musiccorner (Aug 24, 2021)

Crowe said:


> I don't think this is true. At all.
> 
> If you don't know what you're doing, ozone can utterly screw up your mix. Any mishandled compressor, EQ or limiter can. A bad engineer is a bad engineer. Perhaps there are some fringe cases such as Gulfoss or something but I'm pretty sure even that one isn't immune to Bad Handling.
> 
> ...


I didn’t said it would sound good. But I do think that it would sound better than someone on the same level, without the same tools.

When I was teaching guitar, my student, who has a very simple guitar with just the amp verb, played my American Fender Strato, thru my big set of pedals.

He sounded better instantly. Without any improvement, skillwise.


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## musiccorner (Aug 24, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Well, also, 12 years ago, stock plugins kind of sucked. The stock stuff today is much better than it used to be.
> 
> But there is also the fact that sometimes the premium plugins just make it easier to get a better sound, which, when you are learning, does encourage you to keep learning. (less early frustration) It is, however, better in the long run to improve your ears. If that makes sense.


There’s a good point!


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## Crowe (Aug 24, 2021)

musiccorner said:


> I didn’t said it would sound good. But I do think that it would sound better than someone on the same level, without the same tools.
> 
> When I was teaching guitar, my student, who has a very simple guitar with just the amp verb, played my American Fender Strato, thru my big set of pedals.
> 
> He sounded better instantly. Without any improvement, skillwise.



I actually think that's a pretty fringe example. Here you have a carefully selected and set-up selection of tools that someone with much more experience configured. If this student had bought and set up all of this themselves, it wouldn't have sounded anywhere near as good.

EDIT: I'd also like to mention that back when I had no idea what I'm doing, I routinely purchased gear that was actually way worse than what I'd gotten for cheaper or even free prior. Just because the digitech looked snazzy and cool didn't mean anything good came out of it.


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## musiccorner (Aug 24, 2021)

Crowe said:


> I actually think that's a pretty fringe example. Here you have a carefully selected and set-up selection of tools that someone with much more experience configured. If this student had bought and set up all of this themselves, it wouldn't have sounded anywhere near as good.


That’s fair!

But in digital equipments you have presets that “kind of” do that.

Using an better exemple:

Two beginners on the exact same level are mixing vocals.

One with stock eq, Comp, delay, etc.

The other with “magic boxes” like Waves CLA vocals or something like that.

Who do you think will get the better result?


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## Crowe (Aug 24, 2021)

musiccorner said:


> That’s fair!
> 
> But in digital equipments you have presets that “kind of” do that.
> 
> ...



With no instructions and no prior knowledge?

Personally, speaking from experience, whichever tool does not sound awful and has *the least controls*.
I am only just now really figuring out how to use compression and have been defaulting to Cubase's Vintage Compressor, which only has two big dials and 2 relevant buttons. I've been getting much better results with that than, for example, the Royal Compressor I bought which I've only been able to get to sound really good the last few days.

_Edit: On that same note, NI Transient Shaper is *Awesome*. Only three dials! You have to try really hard to mess it up._

Also Waves CLA vocals looks relatively complicated XD. I wouldn't have wanted to use that when I was just starting out. Is it some sort of multi effect? Shouldn't a beginner use something that does one thing at a time?

I guess things change a bit when there's some prior knowledge or 'feel' involved. While I've really been struggling with the idea of Compression I got EQ almost instantly.

Now, I'll also _kinda_ pick your side here and say getting the Kilohearts 'subscription' was one of my best decisions, as the tools in there are super simple and sound really great. But then again I also don't think those are _underrated _as such.

I also have no experience with the likes of Fabfilter or other really expensive Effect gear. Maybe they are magic tools that instantly make your music sound better. I honestly doubt it, but I've seen and heard stranger things.

*aaaaaanyway*. My point isn't that free plugins are better than premium plugins. I just don't think that anyone really undervalues premium plugins except maybe folks who are just starting out.

Also I'm being stubborn. I'm pretty good at that.


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## mscp (Aug 24, 2021)

musiccorner said:


> Hello friends!
> 
> Before you call me crazy, let me explain.
> 
> ...


Here's my take. If you can't hear the difference, whatever premium plugin you get won't matter. Stock plugins are not bad...they're just generic. I used to love looking at people making weird faces because they were using Pro Tools' stock EQ...but then again, they were pupils. Some of them laugh at these early engineering class stories when reminiscing over them. 

Reason: in order to get the most out of a premium plugin, you really need to dial things in a particular way for it to sound the way you want, unless it's one of those "press or dial something and boom" plugins (e.g: Clariphonic --- love it!)

I hear a lot of people using plugins like Decapitator in a very distasteful manner. But once in the hands of some specific people (masters who are also in this forum but will remain anonymous), the processed material just shines.

My ideal mix is to make everything sound right without ANY process. Then, enhance it with them.


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## musiccorner (Aug 24, 2021)

Crowe said:


> With no instructions and no prior knowledge?
> 
> Personally, speaking from experience, whichever tool does not sound awful and has *the least controls*.
> I am only just now really figuring out how to use compression and have been defaulting to Cubase's Vintage Compressor, which only has two big dials and 2 relevant buttons. I've been getting much better results with that than, for example, the Royal Compressor I bought which I've only been able to get to sound really good the last few days.
> ...


You made great points, man! I love it!


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## musiccorner (Aug 24, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> Here's my take. If you can't hear the difference, whatever premium plugin you get won't matter. Stock plugins are not bad...they're just generic. I used to love looking at people making weird faces because they were using Pro Tools' stock EQ...but then again, they were pupils. Some of them laugh at these early engineering class stories when reminiscing over them.
> 
> Reason: in order to get the most out of a premium plugin, you really need to dial things in a particular way for it to sound the way you want, unless it's one of those "press or dial something and boom" plugins (e.g: Clariphonic --- love it!)
> 
> ...


Agreed!


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## Dietz (Aug 24, 2021)

musiccorner said:


> Two beginners on the exact same level are mixing vocals.
> 
> One with stock eq, Comp, delay, etc.
> 
> ...


The one who uses the "magic black boxes" will get the feeling of being "close enough" quickly. S/he will maybe reach 80% of the 110% needed for a valid mix, but s/he will never improve. The other who uses the basic tools will need longer to reach the same 80%, but having understood the craft and how to interact with the sound, s/he will easily outperform those who took the shortcut in the end.


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## musiccorner (Aug 24, 2021)

Dietz said:


> The one who uses the "magic black boxes" will get the feeling of being "close enough" quickly. S/he will maybe reach 80% of the 110% needed for a valid mix, but s/he will never improve. The other who uses the basic tools will need longer to reach the same 80%, but having understood the craft and how to interact with the sound, s/he will easily outperform those who took the shortcut in the end.


No doubt about it, but after practice, they will no longer be at the same level, agree?

As i mentioned, i´m with you 100%: knowleadge and practice are the most important things, but i think that it doesn´t mean that the tools don´t make any difference.

This weird example that i gave is just to show that.


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## Tim_Wells (Aug 24, 2021)

Premium plugins are important to some and that is cool. I have limited time and prefer to focus on the quality of the music, composition, and recording. As long as things are mixed and EQ'd nicely I'm very happy. High-end channel strip and compressor don't do much for me, so they're not a priority.


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## NekujaK (Aug 24, 2021)

Tools constantly evolve and improve, and one of the most significant effects of this evolution is lowering the barrier of entry for less skilled individuals. That doesn't mean the old tools were bad, they just required a certain level of specialized skill to use properly.

Pitch correction plugins make it possible for no-talent singers like me to record vocals that are somewhat listenable. But back in the day, there was no technology to hide behind - you had to be a good singer, or else you didn't have a singing career.

People used to play tennis with wooden rackets until aluminum and carbon fiber came along. This new equipment lowered the barrier of entry for less skilled players, by being more forgiving and enabling weaker players to hit with more power.

I could go on with dozens more examples... the point is, ever since the beginning of time, the purpose of tools has always been to make our lives easier and enable us to accomplish more and better things more quickly. Simple tools like the fulcrum and the wheel are hard to improve on, and will always be with us, but we are also increasingly surrounded by highly sophisticated tools that have high-level skill and knowledge built in, so that the less skilled among us can achieve great results with minimum effort or experience.

Someday, as distasteful as this may sound, it's possible that mixing and mastering engineers will be a thing of the past. DAWs will be capable of automatically mixing and mastering our tracks for us. We're actually much closer to that reality than we realize.

Of course, the really great engineers will never be replaced because what they do goes far beyond the technical aspects of mixing and crosses over into actual art. But for 95% of music produced by us humans, our self-mixing DAWs and plugins will be sufficient enough.


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## MartinH. (Aug 24, 2021)

musiccorner said:


> And, on top of that, here’s the bad news: one bad engineer with premium plugins will sound better than a bad engineer with stock plugins.



No matter if good or bad, or mostly premium or stock, the engineer that uses more instances of OTT will sound better!!!!111 
And that thing is neither premium nor stock (in most DAWs):
https://xferrecords.com/freeware
Sorry, could not resist making that joke!


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## dzilizzi (Aug 24, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> No matter if good or bad, or mostly premium or stock, the engineer that uses more instances of OTT will sound better!!!!111
> And that thing is neither premium nor stock (in most DAWs):
> https://xferrecords.com/freeware
> Sorry, could not resist making that joke!


But it is Free!


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## antames (Aug 24, 2021)

I'd say it's important if you're making premium music. Otherwise, the general public won't hear the difference between a stock plugin and an expensive plugin.


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## AudioLoco (Aug 26, 2021)

I agree. Premium plugins are worth their price 100%. 
Stock/free plugins can get you up to a decent point if you know what you are doing, but the extra quality is defo there in those paid ones. 
Just like in the analog world, a Neve mixer is better then a Mackie mixer, nothing has changed.
Many of the proponents of "paid overrated" simply don't have the ear, and the experience to notice the difference. It sounds a bit harsh, but it is the truth. The process many of these users go through is that they expect a silver bullet "universal betterizer" and when they realize there is not such a thing that works in every case they experience buying remorse and develop an "anti".
Then obviously there are the exeptions, the stock/free plugin that sounds amazing or the many paid for duds, but as a general rule of thumb you get better results for your investment.


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## dzilizzi (Aug 26, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> I agree. Premium plugins are worth their price 100%.
> Stock/free plugins can get you up to a decent point if you know what you are doing, but the extra quality is defo there in those paid ones.
> Just like in the analog world, a Neve mixer is better then a Mackie mixer, nothing has changed.
> Many of the proponents of "paid overrated" simply don't have the ear, and the experience to notice the difference. It sounds a bit harsh, but it is the truth. The process many of these users go through is that they expect a silver bullet "universal betterizer" and when they realize there is not such a thing that works in every case they experience buying remorse and develop an "anti".
> Then obviously there are the exeptions, the stock/free plugin that sounds amazing or the many paid for duds, but as a general rule of thumb you get better results for your investment.


I keep looking for those "betterizers" but haven't really found one yet.


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## SupremeFist (Aug 26, 2021)

PA stuff is really great, and it's gradually edging out most (but not all) of my Waves stuff. But I think it's also ok to prefer any "premium" plugin over stock just if you like the UX better (so you will be able to use it more efficiently).


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## musiccorner (Aug 26, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> I agree. Premium plugins are worth their price 100%.
> Stock/free plugins can get you up to a decent point if you know what you are doing, but the extra quality is defo there in those paid ones.
> Just like in the analog world, a Neve mixer is better then a Mackie mixer, nothing has changed.
> Many of the proponents of "paid overrated" simply don't have the ear, and the experience to notice the difference. It sounds a bit harsh, but it is the truth. The process many of these users go through is that they expect a silver bullet "universal betterizer" and when they realize there is not such a thing that works in every case they experience buying remorse and develop an "anti".
> Then obviously there are the exeptions, the stock/free plugin that sounds amazing or the many paid for duds, but as a general rule of thumb you get better results for your investment.


Great points.

There´s also that "individual track" mentality, right?

Maybe the premium plugins (with someone who knows how to use them) will give you only that extra 10% on processing a track.

Now, add that 10% to every other channel that you´ll use them and maybe, just maybe, the difference its not so small.

Surely regular people wouldn´t notest it. But make no mistake about it, they would *feel* it!

Almost all music they hear have that plugins / hardware fingerprint all over them. Just watch some Mix With the Masters / Pure Mix / Produce Like a Pro tutorials and you will see.

Of course, people don´t know or care if you use an Neve 1073 + LA2A + 1176 on vocals, but trust me, they will probably like that combo anyways.

There´s an musical memory on all people, regardless of being audio pros or not.

All this tools helps with that connection and emotion.

The devil is in the details.


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## Tralen (Aug 26, 2021)

musiccorner said:


> There´s an musical memory on all people, regardless of being audio pros or not.
> 
> All this tools helps with that connection and emotion.


If we only gravitate towards that memory, and produce to satisfy the expectations people already have, what would be the point of new plugins? In fact, what would be the point of creativity?

I see this quest for "quality" the same way I see the quest for "realism". Yes there is a floor that you must achieve and maintain, but most of the room should be there for your expression.


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## musiccorner (Aug 26, 2021)

Tralen said:


> If we only gravitate towards that memory, and produce to satisfy the expectations people already have, what would be the point of new plugins? In fact, what would be the point of creativity?
> 
> I see this quest for "quality" the same way I see the quest for "realism". Yes there is a floor that you must achieve and maintain, but most of the room should be there for your expression.


That´s a great point. I think the path for adaptation is hybrid: the classic with the new.

But what i meant is more than that, the new tools must be* better*, you know? Even tho that is somewhat subjective, it implies that it will react more musically and do something that this classics can´t (or do it faster / easily).

I really doubt that if any DAW came with, for example, all UAD´s plugins, they would still be chosing the DAW EQ or Compressor over UAD´s Pultecs, Distressors and so on.

This shows that the logic behing "only stock plugins" is more for saving (and developing) than for quality.

Its difficult to use agressively an stock DAW compressor without hearing the pumping and artifacts.

Its difficult to use agressively an stock digital EQ without hearing the harshness.

The Bricasti took over the place Lexicon has as main reverb on many big studios because it was an real improvement for them, you know?

Can we say the same about stock plugins?

The Mixbus TV did an great post about it. I put it attached.


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## robgb (Aug 26, 2021)

Well, when you see side by side comparisons between a cheap eq from Hornet and an expensive EQ from Fab Filter and you realize that the difference is "almost" negligible, I'm guessing those premium plugins are vastly overrated.


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## musiccorner (Aug 26, 2021)

robgb said:


> Well, when you see side by side comparisons between a cheap eq from Hornet and an expensive EQ from Fab Filter and you realize that the difference is "almost" negligible, I'm guessing those premium plugins are vastly overrated.


Hornet plugins aren´t stock plugins. Even cheap, they´re on the premium side (at least for what i meant). I have lots of cheap plugins and love some of them (the MJUC for example).

But even looking on both, they´re pretty different. To point a few differences:

Hornet: 12 bands, saturation, no linear phase.

Pro-Q: 24 bands, no saturation, linear phase and others.

If you match curves, using the same phase mode, they will probably sound similar, but they can do so much more than "matching curves". Why not use it to its full potential when needed?

Not to talk about the GUIs, and that makes difference too because we work on screens, not with real buttons.

The point here is that they´re different, not that one is better than other.

And, if every plugin is different, they make difference, for better or worse.


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## JohnG (Aug 26, 2021)

I think expensive stuff -- reverb, plugins, microphones -- contributes substantially more when recording and mixing acoustic instruments and real vocals, by contrast with samples. (By "acoustic" I am not excluding electric guitar)

I do use them for samples too. Years ago I bought a bunch of UAD stuff HZ recommended and use them constantly. I find that they really help me to shine up my sample demos so I can get approved, so I can, in turn, get my hands on an orchestra. Would hate to do without the Massive Passive, just for starters.

If you're just mixing samples, IDK if it's worth it or not. Perhaps it depends a bit on whether you're in this for the money or because you like messing around with sounds and notes.

For sure, people make terrible music with a lot of expensive gear, and good music with a lot of much less expensive gear. 

Those who reflexively reject anything expensive are mistaken, at least in some arenas -- my Selmer saxophone sounds 100x better than the one I used for 20 years before I got it, for example.


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## dzilizzi (Aug 26, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> PA stuff is really great, and it's gradually edging out most (but not all) of my Waves stuff. But I think it's also ok to prefer any "premium" plugin over stock just if you like the UX better (so you will be able to use it more efficiently).


I remember when the Waves stuff was premium plugins. They were still cheaper than the McDSP stuff though.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 26, 2021)

Some of my premiumest of premium plugins are still Waves.


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## Quasar (Aug 26, 2021)

Even though I don't play golf, I think of plugins like golf clubs. If I got cheap clubs from the discount store and played against Tiger Woods and his uber-expensive custom clubs, he would trounce me. If we traded clubs so that I had the good ones, he would still trounce me. It would make no difference.

The good clubs would undoubtedly make his score a little bit better on _some _golf courses, which wouldn't matter in most contexts, since Woods would be recognized as a great golfer whenever he played regardless. But it might also be the critical difference between winning and losing the British Open.

IMHO good plugins can be important, but only when embedded in a context of other factors in which usually dormant and meaningless differences can be brought to bear.

I have heard much music that I dislike, some that I like and some that truly moves me. But I have never listened to a piece of music and thought: "That would have been great if only they had used a more transparent EQ to notch the harshness at 2000k." But then again, as much as I like music, I have never been an audiophile. For audiophiles it might be different.


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## musiccorner (Aug 26, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Some of my premiumest of premium plugins are still Waves.


I don´t get rid of my old trusty R-Vox, even for $100000.


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## SupremeFist (Aug 26, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Some of my premiumest of premium plugins are still Waves.


Me too! Still love the Puigchild and Abbey Road TG Mastering Chain and Schoeps Omnichannel, all of which I think are significantly better than stock Logic plugins, plus Bass Rider for when I'm pretending to play bass...


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## doctoremmet (Aug 26, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> plus Bass Rider for when I'm pretending to play bass...


Damn. One I do not have. Insta-buy. I hope that it will go on sale some day


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## SupremeFist (Aug 26, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Damn. One I do not have. Insta-buy. I hope that it will go on sale some day


You can but hope!


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## Tralen (Aug 26, 2021)

musiccorner said:


> That´s a great point. I think the path for adaptation is hybrid: the classic with the new.
> 
> But what i meant is more than that, the new tools must be* better*, you know? Even tho that is somewhat subjective, it implies that it will react more musically and do something that this classics can´t (or do it faster / easily).
> 
> ...


Well, first, I don't agree that there is this dichotomy between "premium" and "non-premium" plugins. There is a continuous spectrum of quality and cost, like everything else, and I believe any engineer will use tools from multiple points in this spectrum, according to their needs and artistic intent.

Now, the difficulty you describe tells much more about the engineer than the plugins. I would certainly have difficulty with UAD plugins, because I never used them. I would be VERY confident in using Reaper's native plugins, however, aggressively or otherwise, and even more using MY selection of "premium" plugins that I own and know.

In essence, the line you draw isn't at all clear.


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## José Herring (Aug 26, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> PA stuff is really great, and it's gradually edging out most (but not all) of my Waves stuff. But I think it's also ok to prefer any "premium" plugin over stock just if you like the UX better (so you will be able to use it more efficiently).





doctoremmet said:


> Some of my premiumest of premium plugins are still Waves.


What are some other Waves you can't do without?


----------



## musiccorner (Aug 26, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Well, first, I don't agree that there is this dichotomy between "premium" and "non-premium" plugins. There is a continuous spectrum of quality and cost, like everything else, and I believe any engineer will use tools from multiple points in this spectrum, according to their needs and artistic intent.
> 
> Now, the difficulty you describe tells much more about the engineer than the plugins. I would certainly have difficulty with UAD plugins, because I never used them. I would be VERY confident in using Reaper's native plugins, however, aggressively or otherwise, and even more using MY selection of "premium" plugins that I own and know.
> 
> In essence, the line you draw isn't at all clear.


Maybe my thread title is misleading, but on the thread text i explain that i´m calling "premium", the paid ones, opposite to the stock ones.

And yes, of course, you will use what works for you.

To make a clear example of my case:

My number 1 digital parametric EQ is FF Pro-Q 3.

My favourite vocal compressor (by far) is R-Vox, that you can easily find for $29 on Waves constant sales. And i have a lot of compressors more expensive than that.

My favourite stereo enhancer are the free A1 Stereo Tool and Ozone Imager. I´ve compared them to the much loved Leapwig´s StageOne and DrMs, by Matthew Lane. The free ones are more on my taste.

My favourite VU meter is Studio One´s stock Vu meter.

You see? I use expensive, cheap, free, but none of these choices are about price, but about taste.

The argument that i´m really questioning, basically, is the believe that someone is just fool for buying things that the DAW offer for free, because they make no difference at all.


----------



## Tralen (Aug 26, 2021)

musiccorner said:


> The argument that i´m really questioning, basically, is the believe that someone is just fool for buying things that the DAW offer for free, because they make no difference at all.


Oh yes, I agree with you entirely.

To name just one problem with that belief: which DAW? The quality of stock plugins varies from DAW to DAW and that alone invalidates that blank assessment.


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## musiccorner (Aug 26, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Oh yes, I agree with you entirely.
> 
> To name just one problem with that belief: which DAW? The quality of stock plugins varies from DAW to DAW and that alone invalidates that blank assessment.


Now I’m settle with S1 on my home studio, but used others (Pro Tools, Cubase, Logic, Ableton Live and a little bit of Reaper - I worked on many different studios 😅).

That’s true!

Loved the compressor and chroma verb on Logic.

Loved “The Glue” and the Sampler on Live.

Loved the clipper on Reaper.

Loved the Channel Strip on Cubase.

And loved the Sansamp, Lofi and D-Verb (for dirty rooms) on Pro Tools.

EDIT: and love the Redlight Distortion, VU Meter and Console Shaper on Studio One.


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## onnomusic (Aug 26, 2021)

FWIW, the glue in ableton is done by cytomic, who does the "premium" paid glue as well. so there you go.


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## musiccorner (Aug 26, 2021)

onnomusic said:


> FWIW, the glue in ableton is done by cytomic, who does the "premium" paid glue as well. so there you go.


And the clipper in Reaper is made by Stillwell audio, who does the premium paid clipper as well. 😉


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## Daniel James (Aug 26, 2021)

José Herring said:


> On the other hand if I picked up a french horn, I could have the best of everything equipment wise I'd still suck.


That's not how you play french horn. 

-DJ


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## LamaRose (Aug 26, 2021)

The higher ANYTHING costs, it absolutely must be better. 

The irony here, for most younger folks, is that this used to be TRUE.


----------



## rgames (Aug 26, 2021)

Just remember:

Different is science.

Better is religion.


----------



## Nico5 (Aug 26, 2021)

LamaRose said:


> The higher ANYTHING costs, it absolutely must be better.
> 
> The irony here, for most younger folks, is that this used to be TRUE.


Not sure, if that is demonstrably true — snake oil has been sold for a lot longer than any of us have been on the planet.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 27, 2021)

José Herring said:


> What are some other Waves you can't do without?


TG12345. CLA Mixhub. H-Delay.


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## AudioLoco (Aug 27, 2021)

ClaBassClaBass
ClaBassClaBass


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## SupremeFist (Aug 27, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> ClaBassClaBass
> ClaBassClaBass


Yes that one is great too, just been using it along with Bass Rider to try to make my bass playing sound better.  (Oddly I'm not such a fan of Cla guitars, maybe because I know better how to dial in a good sound in the first place.)


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## musiccorner (Aug 27, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> TG12345. CLA Mixhub. H-Delay.


You´re the 3rd person i see mentioning TG12345 this week.

Must check that out!


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## doctoremmet (Aug 27, 2021)

musiccorner said:


> You´re the 3rd person i see mentioning TG12345 this week.
> 
> Must check that out!


I always feel like I’m Alan Parsons behind the Abbey Road EMI desk, mixing DSOTM  whenever I use it.


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## AudioLoco (Aug 27, 2021)

musiccorner said:


> You´re the 3rd person i see mentioning TG12345 this week.
> 
> Must check that out!


TG12345

(4th person, now you defenitely gotta check it  )


----------



## AudioLoco (Aug 27, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Yes that one is great too, just been using it along with Bass Rider to try to make my bass playing sound better.  (Oddly I'm not such a fan of Cla guitars, maybe because I know better how to dial in a good sound in the first place.)


CLA guitars and the other CLAs (excluding the very awesome CLA76!) aren't nothing to write home about IMHO. 
CLABass is just instant, works every time...


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## el-bo (Aug 27, 2021)

musiccorner said:


> Surely regular people wouldn´t notest it


I think you'd be surprised that under blind-test conditions it's not just regular people who can't detect the differences 

Edited to clarify: Differences might be easily discerned, but it's in the identification of the various brands or emulations that things might become unclear


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## Dietz (Aug 27, 2021)

José Herring said:


> What are some other Waves you can't do without?


L3-LL Multi, RVox, RDeesser, Sibilance, S1, L1, C1, C4, F6, Doubler, HEQ, Pusher, Center, LoAir, CLA 76, Abbey Road ADT, API 550B, and their API 2500 when there's no real one or an UAD. All the 360-Series, especially UM.

... and I'm pretty sure that I forgot to mention one or the other.

EDIT: Ahhh, of course I did: X-Crackle and TransX-Wide. Secret weapons for smooth vocals.


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## Trash Panda (Aug 27, 2021)

musiccorner said:


> The argument that i´m really questioning, basically, is the believe that someone is just fool for buying things that the DAW offer for free, because they make no difference at all.


I think people who say this are just falling into the typical black and white sides of a debate on the internet, when the truth really lies within the grey area in the middle.

Whether premium plugins are "worth it" or not I think falls into these considerations.

Sound/Character/Color: Do I like the sonic impact this plugin has on a track/bus/mix more than what I can achieve with stock plugins? Most DAW plugins are very neutral in the effect they impart, by design, so if you're looking to add a specific character or coloration to the sound that stock plugins don't provide, the premium plugin may be worth it depending on the answers to these other questions.
Workflow/Efficiency/Features: Can I get the same sound I would arrive at with stock plugins faster or easier? Does this plugin make my workflow more or less efficient? Does it offer features I cannot easily replicate, if at all, with stock plugins? If the answer is no to these, am I willing to accept the tradeoff if I like the sound more than stock plugins?
Cost: Can I really afford this plugin? Is it priced at a level in line with my own perceived value for what it does? Easy one to answer here.
I ran through a similar exercise when deciding to take the dive into the Fabfilter ecosystem with Pro Q3 after resisting forever.

Sound/Character/Color: It's neutral in this regard, so there is not a benefit over stock or cheaper options.
Workflow/Efficiency/Features: Hoo boy. This is where the value lies. Easy workflow, a crazy amount of features (and I actually find myself using many of them), more capability of extreme filtering values if it's ever needed, very fast results. Super low on CPU usage too.
Cost: Ugh. Yes, but ugh!


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## musiccorner (Aug 27, 2021)

el-bo said:


> I think you'd be surprised that under blind-test conditions it's not just regular people who can't detect the differences
> 
> Edited to clarify: Differences might be easily discerned, but it's in the identification of the various brands or emulations that things might become unclear


Yes! That´s a case-by-case situation.

There are some plugins that i really would identify the sonic differences 100 times thru blindtest.

I can say that confidently because i actually do that, specially demoing plugins (with the help of ABAssist, by NUGEN Audio).

Sure, some are very similar or i just can´t pick the difference on a blind test, but other things also matters to me: easy of use, CPU usage, GUI, sale price, money to buy it, licensing system (ilok, nor-ilok), etc.


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## AudioLoco (Aug 27, 2021)

One more now not so secret weapon:

Waves MV2 on percussion/drums is godly


----------



## doctoremmet (Aug 27, 2021)

Oh. And there’s @charlieclouser who uses L3 a lot. He has posted a couple of excellent and really valuable insights into his mixing process.


----------



## doctoremmet (Aug 27, 2021)

This thread is gold:






Spiral score album incoming...


Hey kids, some shameless self-promotion incoming. Ever wonder what I do with my 7-stem, 768-instance, all-EXS24 template? Well now you can hear the results. The album of my score for the ninth (!) movie in the SAW horror franchise is available for pre-order on Apple Music, and will hit all...




vi-control.net


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## re-peat (Aug 27, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> PA stuff is really great



Lots of same-sounding stuff too, though. During PA’s recent sale period, I demoed as much stuff as I could give my full attention, and while I won’t say that if you’ve heard one Brainworx-designed channel strip you’ve heard them all, that very thought came with increasing frequency to my mind while I gave these plugins a trial spin. Lots of it sounds to me as if they do a few tweaks to their tried-and-tested core set of algorithms, dress it up in a new GUI, add or remove parameters as befits the model, and declare it a new accurate emulation of some fancy piece of desirable hardware. I have that with Analog Obsession too: no matter what brand or gear it’s supposed to emulate, it all sounds the same to me. For free, in the case of Analog Obsession, which is nice, but still. (I deleted all AO’s from my HD last month. Had no use for them whatsoever.)

That said, I ended up buying three PA plugins which I do like (and which I use avidly ever since the purchase): UnfilteredAudio’s BassMint (excellent), Elysia’s Phil’s Cascade (my favourite, and highly recommended, but it takes time to learn how to work with it) and the BlackBox (in my opinion not the sensation many sources told me it is, but it’s definitely useful). I was on the verge of buying the Bettermaker EQ as well, but decided to go with the CraveEQ instead. And je suis very happy with that decision.

Another plugin that’s now sold through PA but which I bought many years ago from the actual developer, is the Dynamic Spectrum Mapper, still one of the most useful plugins in the entire PA collection, in my opinion.

Waves .. I don’t know. I have lots, but I don’t use lots. Less and less even. Especially anything of theirs that has ‘Abbey Road’ in its name has been something of a disappointment. I have the AR Chamber, the AR Plates, the AR Saturator, the AR Vinyl and the REDD’s, and I can’t remember the last time I actually used any of these. What I do like from Waves are, and don’t laugh, their BassFingers (really strong, full, fat bass sound), the two electric pianos (not very accurate-sounding but a joy to play nonetheless) and the Scheps Omni Channel. Although, if the latter would stop working after I submit this post, I wouldn’t really care. But it’s a good plugin, sure.

I also use the NewFangled Audio Elevate Suite much less than I guess I should. Probably me though. Really powerful stuff, undoubtedly, but I just don’t click with it.

Next to the likes already mentioned, my current favourites are a couple of old Sonnox plugins (old but ageing-proof, I find), some of the Goodhertz tools (very impressed with their latest: Tupe), one or two from Soundtoys (Little Plate and EchoBoy especially) and a few Softube ones.

The old MetricHalo ChannelStrip made a welcome come-back too in my active plugin list (really remarkable how good that plugin still sounds and how versatile it is), as did Zynaptiq’s fine Intensity (which, for some incomprehensible reason, I neglected for too long).

I also find much use for the Kush and Sly-Fy plugins (two brands, same developer). The Pulsar MU is another one I often reach for. And I love the Pulsar Echorec: one of the very few that’s on everything I do.

Another developer whom, in my view, you can’t go wrong with, is DMG Audio. Truly outstanding software, all of it. And there’s always a couple of UAD plugins as well that find their way into my mixes. Although much less frequently than they used to.

And finally: Acustica Audio. Just as with PA, I tested most of their Aqua range (and some Nebula plugins too) in recent months and got increasingly bored with or non-plussed by what I heard (or, more accurately: didn’t hear), but I did end up buying one plugin: the quite unique DiamondTrans. Difficult to say what it is — it’s a weird combination of dynamic EQ, multiband transient shaping and multiband expanding — so, in case you feel your toolbox is perhaps lacking in the creative dynamic processing department, do check it out. Very powerful tool.

_


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## SupremeFist (Aug 27, 2021)

re-peat said:


> while I won’t say that if you’ve heard one Brainworx-designed channel strip you’ve heard them all, that very thought came with increasing frequency to my mind while I gave these plugins a trial spin.


That's maybe fair enough but I've been really enjoying using the SSL G in some applications: just instantiating it in default settings across all tracks seems to add a certain 3Dness to the mix that is quite addictive. 

Agree too that the Black Box and Phil's Cascade are very nice...


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## el-bo (Aug 27, 2021)

musiccorner said:


> There are some plugins that i really would identify the sonic differences 100 times thru blindtest.


...out of 1000 tests? 



musiccorner said:


> but other things also matters to me: easy of use, CPU usage, GUI, sale price, money to buy it, licensing system (ilok, nor-ilok), etc.


But this is a separate argument altogether. Workflow preference on it's own is a valid justification for upgrading, even if the sound isn't really much (or any) better.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 27, 2021)

re-peat said:


> What I do like from Waves are, and don’t laugh, their BassFingers (really strong, full, fat bass sound), the two electric pianos (not very accurate-sounding but a joy to play nonetheless) and the Scheps Omni Channel.


You won’t hear me laugh. Those instruments are very good. Accuracy is overrated - I have my real mk II for that. The clavinet is good as well.

So Piet, I take it we won’t be jotting down your name on the TG12345 adoration society member list any time soon then?


----------



## Trash Panda (Aug 27, 2021)

@doctoremmet how close would you say the E channel of Decapitator comes to emulating the coloration of TG1234? Apples and handgrenades?


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## musiccorner (Aug 27, 2021)

el-bo said:


> ...out of 1000 tests?


Put my Seventh Heaven Professional against my other reverb plugins and i´ll recognize the decay drunk, in the middle of a David Guetta show and with Dua Lipa whispering at my ear, all at the same time.


----------



## doctoremmet (Aug 27, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> E channel of Decapitator


I have never even been close to either one… so no clue


----------



## musiccorner (Aug 27, 2021)

re-peat said:


> What I do like from Waves are, and don’t laugh, their BassFingers (really strong, full, fat bass sound), the two electric pianos (not very accurate-sounding but a joy to play nonetheless) and the Scheps Omni Channel.


Love the EPs aswell.


----------



## re-peat (Aug 27, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> So Piet, I take it we won’t be jotting down your name on the TG12345 adoration society member list any time soon then?


Well, maybe. I just downloaded the demo and I'm right in the middle of something nobody is waiting for, so the perfect time to do some thorough TG12345 testing. I'll let you know.

_


----------



## AudioLoco (Aug 27, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Lots of same-sounding stuff too, though. During PA’s recent sale period, I demoed as much stuff as I could give my full attention, and while I won’t say that if you’ve heard one Brainworx-designed channel strip you’ve heard them all, that very thought came with increasing frequency to my mind while I gave these plugins a trial spin. Lots of it sounds to me as if they do a few tweaks to their tried-and-tested core set of algorithms, dress it up in a new GUI, add or remove parameters as befits the model, and declare it a new accurate emulation of some fancy piece of desirable hardware. I have that with Analog Obsession too: no matter what brand or gear it’s supposed to emulate, it all sounds the same to me. For free, in the case of Analog Obsession, which is nice, but still. (I deleted all AO’s from my HD last month. Had no use for them whatsoever.)
> 
> That said, I ended up buying three PA plugins which I do like (and which I use avidly ever since the purchase): UnfilteredAudio’s BassMint (excellent), Elysia’s Phil’s Cascade (my favourite, and highly recommended, but it takes time to learn how to work with it) and the BlackBox (in my opinion not the sensation many sources told me it is, but it’s definitely useful). I was on the verge of buying the Bettermaker EQ as well, but decided to go with the CraveEQ instead. And je suis very happy with that decision.
> 
> ...


Every time I see "Abbey Road" on a plugin I stupidly press the buy button... (the Beatles maniac in me takes total control over my rational thinking in those cases)
Unfortunately I have to agree with you, every single Waves AR plugin excluding the aformentioned TG12345 and the tone of the EQ on the REDD ones, has been a let down for me. 
I recently got the RS124 as I adore my HW one, and none of the magic is translated well enough to the plugin....

Acustica Audio I purchased the most revered ones, and I really don't like the latency of the operation between left and right channels and generally, and the sound is, IN MY OPINION, overrated by the online army of adoring fans... Nothing much better then other algo plugins I use.

Anyhow the point for the thread is in my opinion: 
It's not great just because it's paid for, an active evaluation and usage is really required to gauge what each plugin can do for you and is it worth the investment for what you get.


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## el-bo (Aug 27, 2021)

musiccorner said:


> Put my Seventh Heaven Professional against my other reverb plugins and i´ll recognize the decay drunk, in the middle of a David Guetta show and with Dua Lipa whispering at my ear, all at the same time.


Keep getting drunk at very loud concerts and you'll eventually not be able to tell SHP from the reverb that came packaged with 'BABYA LOGIC' 

But more seriously, the kind of test I'm talking about would require you to distinguish between 7 or 8 Pultec emulations, ranking them from 'free, DAW-included, up to UAD etc.

Anyway, I'm still not so sure about your reverb claims:


----------



## GNP (Aug 27, 2021)

OP:

You sound like an amateur who only desires premium plugins by pretending to "counter-bait" the "if you know what you're doing, stock plugins work just as well" wisdom.

So, I ask you the same thing again.

Do you know what you're doing?


----------



## musiccorner (Aug 27, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Keep getting drunk at very loud concerts and you'll eventually not be able to tell SHP from the reverb that came packaged with 'BABYA LOGIC'
> 
> But more seriously, the kind of test I'm talking about would require you to distinguish between 7 or 8 Pultec emulations, ranking them from 'free, DAW-included, up to UAD etc.
> 
> Anyway, I'm still not so sure about your reverb claims:



I love Christian and Spitfire Audio, but i find this video more for creative purposes than comparision.

One of the best ways to compare the qualities of an reverb, IMO, is with transient heavy material.

With an short, very sharp transient, you can hear the actual quality of the decay (one of the main aspects that defines an good verb).

Not coincidently, that´s the main way to capture some of the most famous IR´s on the planet.

Besides that, there´s level matching, density, the specific algorithm / room they´re trying to emulate, equal decays, filters, pre-delays, changing very quickly from one to another, and so on.

I think this video is not meant to be an actual test / comparision on that regard.


----------



## Dietz (Aug 27, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> Unfortunately I have to agree with you, every single Waves AR plugin excluding the aformentioned TG12345 and the tone of the EQ on the REDD ones, has been a let down for me.


Why would ADT be a "let-down"?


----------



## re-peat (Aug 27, 2021)

Turns out that, sadly, I can't test the TG12345. It's a Waves v12 'Metal' plugin and those are incompatible with my older Mac. (The most recent Waves version I can run is v11 and there is no v11 version of the TG12345.) Installing and validating the v12's is no problem, but when loaded, they display a black space where the GUI should be, so: quite unusable. Pity.

_


----------



## AudioLoco (Aug 27, 2021)

Dietz said:


> Why would ADT be a "let-down"?


I wanted to like it with all my heart, believe me, just didn't happen. 
It is gathering virtual dust somewhere on my hard disc...

It is theoretically doing what it was supposed to do, but I'm not crazy about the results, every time I give it another chance it lets me down. 
Having said that, taste is surely personal...


----------



## Trash Panda (Aug 27, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I have never even been close to either one… so no clue


I meant does the E channel of Decapitator plugin impart the same flavor of coloration as TG12345 plugin.


----------



## Dietz (Aug 27, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> It is theoretically doing what it was supposed to do, but I'm not crazy about the results, every time I give it another chance it lets me down.
> Having said that, taste is surely personal...


It surely is.  ... I don't know any alternatives that use the host's delay compensation as cleverly as ADT to achieve the effect of doubled signals _before_ the actual input.


----------



## re-peat (Aug 27, 2021)

Here’s a little video — well, I say 'little', but it’s 12 minutes long — *demonstrating the Goodhertz Tupe*. After having used it intensively this past week, I’m now pretty confident that with this single plugin, I can cover the entire mock-analog, pseudo-vintage territory of most anything sold by PluginAlliance, Waves, Acustica or whichever specialized developer you can think of, and you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. And that would still be only 20% of what Tupe is capable of: this thing can go _much_ further than simply dwelling in the land of sonic nostalgia.

The area on the left side of the plugin is where the tube/tape saturation and compression are set (and while all very good, there’s not really anything truly unique about any of this), but it’s (the combination with) that phenomenally powerful EQ and Emphasis area on the right side of the GUI, that makes this plugin such an incredibly versatile, powerful and creative tool.

(I've improvised my way through these twelve minutes, fiddling with the parameters, and there are no edits, so it tends to be a bit boring at times, but you do get a fairly good look, I think, at how this plugin works, what it's capable of and what it sounds like.)

_


----------



## JamieLang (Aug 27, 2021)

I think they're underunderstood. 

I also think all DAWs' built in DSP sets are NOT equal.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 27, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> I meant does the E channel of Decapitator plugin impart the same flavor of coloration as TG12345 plugin.


I know. Of those three plugins I have only ever worked with TG12345, so I’m the wrong person to ask… sorry!


----------



## CT (Aug 27, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Turns out that, sadly, I can't test the TG12345. It's a Waves v12 'Metal' plugin and those are incompatible with my older Mac. (The most recent Waves version I can run is v11 and there is no v11 version of the TG12345.) Installing and validating the v12's is no problem, but when loaded, they display a black space where the GUI should be, so: quite unusable. Pity.
> 
> _


I had this problem recently as well. If you're eager enough to try the TG12345, you should be able to install V11 via Waves Central if you click on the All Products option and use the "View" tab to select V11 only. It worked for me but this was with a plugin I owned. Unsure if it applies to demo versions.


----------



## robgb (Aug 27, 2021)

musiccorner said:


> Hornet plugins aren´t stock plugins. Even cheap, they´re on the premium side (at least for what i meant).


Ahh. So you're saying that all non-stock plugins are premium then? I guess I didn't understand. The point I was trying to make is that some premium plugins are OVERRATED, considering what they cost vs. inexpensive plugins that can do much the same.


----------



## José Herring (Aug 27, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Here’s a little video — well, I say 'little', but it’s 12 minutes long — *demonstrating the Goodhertz Tupe*. After having used it intensively this past week, I’m now pretty confident that with this single plugin, I can cover the entire mock-analog, pseudo-vintage territory of most anything sold by PluginAlliance, Waves, Acustica or whichever specialized developer you can think of, and you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. And that would still be only 20% of what Tupe is capable of: this thing can go _much_ further than simply dwelling in the land of sonic nostalgia.
> 
> The area on the left side of the plugin is where the tube/tape saturation and compression are set (and while all very good, there’s not really anything truly unique about any of this), but it’s (the combination with) that phenomenally powerful EQ and Emphasis area on the right side of the GUI, that makes this plugin such an incredibly versatile, powerful and creative tool.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I've been looking for something exactly like this for a while. Nice find!

As far as PA, I just got a subscription to kind of "try before you buy" and I ended up really liking the Amek EQ and also the Amek 9099 channel strip. And as you mentioned the Unfiltered Audio stuff is really nice. Also, a big fan of the SPL stuff but it's a matter of taste on that. Some people don't like it which is fine but the SPL Iron smooths out a lot of the synth stuff.

Mostly though I use PA for drastic sound design because you can push them to an extreme and they still sound rather cool. I tend to use other stuff for mixing like Fab Filter because it stays out of the way whilst doing its job.


----------



## SupremeFist (Aug 28, 2021)

Maybe also worth pointing out that some third-party plugins can be really good learning tools if you are paying attention. Eg in the time I've been using Voxengo's TEOTE I've found it wants to do less and less to my mixes, which I interpret as my having become better at mixing (or at least at approaching the curve it expects).


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## AudioLoco (Aug 28, 2021)

Also, in addition to the "paid for"/"premium" vs Stock/free plugins debate there is an important old vs new plugins.
Old ones are often underrated in favor of the new shiny releases.
But some 10-20 y/o plugins still pack a punch and are not to be underestimated like the many Waves examples (L1/L3/RBass/RComp etc etc), some IK ones (the 670 is still my favorite Fairchild emu), Sountoys Decapitator and Echoboy etc.
I often expected 150% increase in quality from newer tech/algos let's say emulating the same hardware piece, but I often got disappointed by the newer releases...


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## musiccorner (Aug 28, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Maybe also worth pointing out that some third-party plugins can be really good learning tools if you are paying attention. Eg in the time I've been using Voxengo's TEOTE I've found it wants to do less and less to my mixes, which I interpret as my having become better at mixing (or at least at approaching the curve it expects).


Great point!

Another thing that third-party plug-ins can help is to develop your taste!

I’ve heard lots of famous engineers talking about spring verbs and it’s many uses.

Using my stock spring reverb or the one that is on my amp never pleased me.

“Well…maybe I just don’t like spring verbs and that’s ok.” - I though.

Then i got PSP’s Spring Box for sale ($19 I guess) and decide to give it a go.

Now I have spring verbs on my template and found out that I love using them! 😅


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## jaketanner (Aug 28, 2021)

José Herring said:


> As far as bricasti. It's funny. I'm using 7th Heaven as my main reverb right now. I just can't say I'm fond of it. But it works. That's another thing. If it works, I'll put my personal feelings aside.
> 
> I did an orchetral date and the engineer came in with this radiator looking contraption. I'm like ummmm..... What they hell is that? It was a digital Roland reverb from 1970's. I'm thinking dude that bullshit has got to go. Gimme my Lexi! But, I decided to give it a chance. Wasn't my favorite but it worked and he could use it well and the mix though I hated it at the time, I now consider the best mix of orchestra I have.


I had a Roland RSP 550 Reverb unit...Put it aside for at least a decade...sold it to a friend of mine and decided to hook it up in his system. Man, what I ran a signal through that, you can instantly hear that it made a huge difference. Roland, Lexicon, TC..etc...hardware reverbs, with their converters (good of bad), just sounded better anyway. My current favorite, and I have a LOT of reverbs, is the CR Pro also by liquidsonics. It sounds fantastic on orchestral VIs. I also have 7HPro and compared to the Reverberate, sounds a bit thinner...but nothing a tape plugin can't solve.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 28, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Lots of same-sounding stuff too, though. During PA’s recent sale period, I demoed as much stuff as I could give my full attention, and while I won’t say that if you’ve heard one Brainworx-designed channel strip you’ve heard them all, that very thought came with increasing frequency to my mind while I gave these plugins a trial spin. Lots of it sounds to me as if they do a few tweaks to their tried-and-tested core set of algorithms, dress it up in a new GUI, add or remove parameters as befits the model, and declare it a new accurate emulation of some fancy piece of desirable hardware.


Same experience I've had with PA. They're not "premium plugins" IMO - I don't think they're much better than most stock plugins now. Using some of the UAD ones, especially the newer ones, it's like a night and day difference (not sure who PA has coding theirs, but UA employs some real DSP legends if you poke around LinkedIn and it really shows in the quality).

+1 on Sonnox and Softube as well. And FabFilter for their UIs.


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## musiccorner (Aug 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Same experience I've had with PA. They're not "premium plugins" IMO - I don't think they're much better than most stock plugins now. Using some of the UAD ones, especially the newer ones, it's like a night and day difference (not sure who PA has coding theirs, but UA employs some real DSP legends if you poke around LinkedIn and it really shows in the quality).
> 
> +1 on Sonnox and Softube as well. And FabFilter for their UIs.


For me, the relationship with PA is trial and error. Some i really like (Maag EQ4, Shadow Hills Class A, Townhouse buss compressor...) and some i really don´t.

About the quality of PA´s coding, i couldn´t really tell (don´t have the expertise  ), but i know some UAD´s plugins are made by (and some in conjuction with) brainworx.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> UA employs some real DSP legends if you poke around LinkedIn and it really shows in the quality


One of which is Brainworx


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## doctoremmet (Aug 28, 2021)

I have to say that Unfiltered Audio definitely develop premium sounding effects plugins. Most of their stuff does something I could never achieve with any other plugin.


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## José Herring (Aug 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Same experience I've had with PA. They're not "premium plugins" IMO - I don't think they're much better than most stock plugins now. Using some of the UAD ones, especially the newer ones, it's like a night and day difference (not sure who PA has coding theirs, but UA employs some real DSP legends if you poke around LinkedIn and it really shows in the quality).
> 
> +1 on Sonnox and Softube as well. And FabFilter for their UIs.


Uggg....brainworx has given license to UAD to use their plugins. Your statements make no sense what so ever.

PA and UAD are on the same level and in some cases they use the exact same plugins. UAD are using brainworx plugins then even according to your logic PA must be good.

Is there a lot of duplication in PA's stuff sure, but there is some stellar plugins as well.

The only thing PA lacks is a good reverb. UAD has them beat. But everything else is top notch.


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## AudioLoco (Aug 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Same experience I've had with PA. They're not "premium plugins" IMO - I don't think they're much better than most stock plugins now.


Not all of theme are great, but the ones that are, are truly special and beat any stock plugin out there

Townhouse is one of the best SSL style comps out there
Black box is really amazingballs
Maag EQs are just amazing
Bx_digital is a stereo swiss knife
SSL J is one of the reasons Micheal Brauer sold all his gear
VSM 3... sweet
Bx_ synth? That thing is great...
Nvelope is very nice
The new Amek , Phil's Cascade and the 50 series are loved by many

Having said that it's not all great:
Muse EQ and BAx Eq are totally useless, and the amps don't sound convincing to me for example...


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## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 28, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> One of which is Brainworx


Lol not those.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 28, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Uggg....brainworx has given license to UAD to use their plugins. Your statements make no sense what so ever.
> 
> PA and UAD are on the same level and in some cases they use the exact same plugins. UAD are using brainworx plugins then even according to your logic PA must be good.
> 
> ...


You know UAD makes in-house plugins right? So my statement makes perfect sense. The in-house plugins of UAD are far superior than the Brianworx ones and the other PA ones.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 28, 2021)

musiccorner said:


> For me, the relationship with PA is trial and error. Some i really like (Maag EQ4, Shadow Hills Class A, Townhouse buss compressor...) and some i really don´t.
> 
> About the quality of PA´s coding, i couldn´t really tell (don´t have the expertise  ), but i know some UAD´s plugins are made by (and some in conjuction with) brainworx.


I was speaking of UAD in-house plugins, which are most definitely NOT coded by Brainworx (and are much better than those).


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## SupremeFist (Aug 28, 2021)

At any rate I think we can all agree that if our music sucks it's not because we choose to use PA or Waves vs UAD or Fabfilter or Beardy Shoreditch Boutique Plugins?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 28, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> Not all of theme are great, but the ones that are, are truly special and beat any stock plugin out there
> 
> Townhouse is one of the best SSL style comps out there
> Black box is really amazingballs
> ...


I've tried / or own many of those and I just never reach for them or thought they were particularly special. But in all things, use your own ears and decide for yourself.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 28, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> At any rate I think we can all agree that if our music sucks it's not because we choose to use PA or Waves vs UAD or Fabfilter or Beardy Shoreditch Boutique Plugins?


Of course - it's simply because we didn't use the right sample library


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## doctoremmet (Aug 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Lol not those.


Ah I see. Those are… bad? Asking for a friend.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 28, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Ah I see. Those are… bad? Asking for a friend.


Tell your friend to use their ears and decide for themselves. Most of these plugins nowadays have free demos. Very easy to compare.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Tell your friend to use their ears and decide for themselves. Most of these plugins nowadays have free demos. Very easy to compare.


Well. He told me he liked some of the UAD ones produced by Brainworx, but some person on a forum pointed at him an laughed and said those were in fact not good


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## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 28, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Well. He told me he liked some of the UAD ones produced by Brainworx, but some person on a forum pointed at him an laughed and said those were in fact not good


Well my ears have compared them and there is a very clear quality difference between them and the in-house UAD developed ones. It's not remotely close.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Well my ears have compared them and there is a very clear quality difference between them and the in-house UAD developed ones. It's not remotely close.


So my friend… should he trust his own ears then -per your advice- or are your ears objectively better? Asking for myself this time


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## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 28, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> So my friend… should he trust his own ears then -per your advice- or are your ears objectively better? Asking for myself this time


You seem to have an issue with opinions. I provided mine. Deal with it.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 28, 2021)

Lol ok


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## musiccorner (Aug 28, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> At any rate I think we can all agree that if our music sucks it's not because we choose to use PA or Waves vs UAD or Fabfilter or Beardy Shoreditch Boutique Plugins?


Looks like you haven´t heard about the Hanszimmerizer...


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## AudioLoco (Aug 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I've tried / or own many of those and I just never reach for them or thought they were particularly special. But in all things, use your own ears and decide for yourself.


De gustibus non disputandum est. 
If you don't like any of these then I believe we simply have very different tastes in plugins processors....


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## Trash Panda (Aug 28, 2021)

What amp sims are y’all using and in what kind of application? Brainworx Diezel VH4 and Orange Rockerverb III are fantastic.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 28, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> What amp sims are y’all using and in what kind of application? Brainworx Diezel VH4 and Orange Rockerverb III are fantastic.


Kemper


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## Trash Panda (Aug 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Kemper


I meant what PA amps.


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## easyrider (Aug 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> You know UAD makes in-house plugins right? So my statement makes perfect sense. The in-house plugins of UAD are far superior than the Brianworx ones and the other PA ones.


I guess you havent read the Gearspace blind test thread against the UAD 33609 and Ik multimedia Precision compressor…..

😂

Sunken cost syndrome again with UAD worship….🤢


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## easyrider (Aug 28, 2021)

The sunk cost effect is *the general tendency for people to continue an endeavor, or continue consuming or pursuing an option, if they've invested time or money or some resource in it*,”

UAD plugins are far superior is the biggest load of BS on the internet…..it’s only the people who have invested 1000s of dollars defending the Out of date DSP dongle disguise….

You only have to pop over to the UAD forums to see the odd behaviour of these UAD evangelists 😂


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## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 28, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I guess you havent read the Gearspace blind test thread against the UAD 33609 and Ik multimedia Precision compressor…..
> 
> 😂
> 
> Sunken cost syndrome again with UAD worship….🤢


Lol you seem bitter. How is it sunk cost if you use the plugins day in and day out? Plugins that continue to work for years, sometimes over a decade, without issue? Plugins that continue to be used by people who actually mix for a living and don't have many concerns about cost of tools or sunk costs?

Let me guess - you've never actually used your ears to compare? Do you even own UAD? The uninformed hate always comes from people that seem to be jealous at others' ability to afford the things they cannot...


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## José Herring (Aug 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Lol you seem bitter. How is it sunk cost if you use the plugins day in and day out? Plugins that continue to work for years, sometimes over a decade, without issue? Plugins that continue to be used by people who actually mix for a living and don't have many concerns about cost of tools or sunk costs?


I know I'd be wasting my time by pointing out that many "pro" mixers use PA, UAD, Waves, Fab Filter and just about everything else including stock plugins, because nothing will disabuse you of the fact that UAD must be superior in every regard. In all aspects. I'm mean I'm sure that the UAD version of the SPL transient designer is absolutely better sounding that the PA version because why else would anybody charge more for it?

I mean have you even tried the Brainworx 9099 or the Amek EQ200?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 28, 2021)

José Herring said:


> I know I'd be wasting my time by pointing out that many "pro" mixers use PA, UAD, Waves, Fab Filter and just about everything else including stock plugins, because nothing will disabuse you of the fact that UAD must be superior in every regard. In all aspects. I'm mean I'm sure that the UAD version of the SPL transient designer is absolutely better sounding that the PA version because why else would anybody charge more for it?
> 
> I mean have you even tried the Brainworx 9099 or the Amek EQ200?


Lol - so you’ve just supported my point that pro mixers use UAD not because of some sunk cost syndrome but because it works for them. Similar to other plugins. Where did I say that UAD was superior to ALL others in ALL aspects? Keep your words out of mouth. Did I say you shouldn’t use plugins if your ears tell you they’re great or you like their workflow? I own a number of UAD plugins but I would never buy ones that have native versions as it is the same exact code (and I do have the SPL transient designer native version - though prefer Sonnox). Plenty of UAD ones I demoed and decided not to buy. Just like I’ve demoed many Brainworx ones and decided I preferred others. Overall, I’ve found the quality of UAD-developed plugins to be excellent. With Brainworx, not so much.


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## José Herring (Aug 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Lol - so you’ve just supported my point that pro mixers use UAD not because of some sunk cost syndrome but because it works for them. Similar to other plugins. Where did I say that UAD was superior to ALL others in ALL aspects? Keep your words out of mouth. Did I say you shouldn’t use plugins if your ears tell you they’re great or you like their workflow? I own a number of UAD plugins but I would never buy ones that have native versions as it is the same exact code (and I do have the SPL transient designer native version - though prefer Sonnox). Plenty of UAD ones I demoed and decided not to buy. Just like I’ve demoed many Brainworx ones and decided I preferred others. Overall, I’ve found the quality of UAD-developed plugins to be excellent. With Brainworx, not so much.


Yeah, but did you try the 9099 and the Amek EQ 200? 

Try that and tell me those sound terrible. 

They are very good and represent the next wave of Brainworx plugins. And they sound every bit as good as any UAD I've ever tried. 

If as far as you got was the Lindel plugins then I can understand your point. I didn't dig them either but the Amek 200 and the 9099 changed my mind completely. 

But I'm curious about the Sonnox. Wrote them of a long time ago. I'll take another look. Thanks for the reminder.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 28, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Yeah, but did you try the 9099 and the Amek EQ 200?
> 
> Try that and tell me those sound terrible.
> 
> ...


I haven’t tried those but I’ll check them out - thanks. Sonnox are great, reliable - but clean.


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## musiccorner (Aug 29, 2021)

José Herring said:


> But I'm curious about the Sonnox. Wrote them of a long time ago. I'll take another look. Thanks for the reminder.


Sonnox is indeed very good.

Was about to buy it and then I tested Spiff.

For me, that’s the best and more versatile Transient Designer to date.

If you haven’t, check that out too. Maybe you’ll like it!


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## easyrider (Aug 29, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Lol you seem bitter. How is it sunk cost if you use the plugins day in and day out? Plugins that continue to work for years, sometimes over a decade, without issue? Plugins that continue to be used by people who actually mix for a living and don't have many concerns about cost of tools or sunk costs?


I’m not bitter it’s a plugin who cares….what’s interesting is when people are tested and you take the UAD logo away people don’t have a clue which one is the UAD and in that thread the IK multimedia plugin won….

Now if you have sunk 1000s into the UAD platform..the majority wouldn’t admit an IK multimedia plugin costing peanuts is actually better…they will convince themselves that the UAD one is far superior…it also amazes me that people defend the DSP claims that it allows more plugins to be used….The DSP chips are ancient and although maybe relevant on an old PC with a dual core….a modern day pc with 16 cores 32 threads it’s a non issue…

The DSP is a dongle….that’s it….an Apollo Solo is an overpriced dongle to run overpriced plugs…



ALittleNightMusic said:


> Let me guess - you've never actually used your ears to compare? Do you even own UAD?


Of course I have…I have friends with UAD tunnel vision glow….and the plugs are nothing special…I’m not saying they are bad but they are certainly not superior to other developers….it’s code at the end of the day tied to an antiquated dongle system…



ALittleNightMusic said:


> The uninformed hate always comes from people that seem to be jealous at others' ability to afford the things they cannot...


That old chestnut….nothing in the comeback other than you can’t afford it….well I can afford it….just like I can afford my £30,000 guitar collection….so wind your neck in….


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## easyrider (Aug 29, 2021)

From an UAD user who by the looks of it has had an epiphany moment…

”As a longtime user of UAD, they're not something I would invest into at this point.

I love their plugins, I still use them on every mix, but I think competitors finally caught up with the quality, and offloading the processing to hardware isn't as beneficial as it once was. If they aren't working in native versions already, they are in big trouble, as buying "octo-core" DSP chips for $2k that are less powerful than a smartphone hasn't been appealing for the past several years.

In the end, they are great plugins and a good company in general, but they haven't been worth the price of entry for a couple of years now “


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## Wirebird (Aug 29, 2021)

One would perhaps not think that in a plugin-world of nearly endless possibilities regarding creativity, quality and budget, people would still argue, bicker and sling mud. But yeah, Apes R Us. Ooh ooh ooh ooh ah, is my professional contribution to this debate. Mind you, I’ve been a producer and audio engineer for some 30 years, using both hardware and plugins throughout their development. Ooh ooh ooh ooh ah is the final word on the topic, trust me 🙂


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## easyrider (Aug 29, 2021)

Wirebird said:


> One would perhaps not think that in a plugin-world of nearly endless possibilities regarding creativity, quality and budget, people would still argue, bicker and sling mud. But yeah, Apes R Us. Ooh ooh ooh ooh ah, is my professional contribution to this debate. Mind you, I’ve been a producer and audio engineer for some 30 years, using both hardware and plugins throughout their development. Ooh ooh ooh ooh ah is the final word on the topic, trust me 🙂


The Elitism of UAD disciples grinds my gears….


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## Wirebird (Aug 29, 2021)

easyrider said:


> The Elitism of UAD disciples grinds my gears….


Don’t sweat it. This elitism is in this context just an incredibly misplaced impulse to attract possible mating partners.

I used to use UAD plugins. They’re great. Now I use Arturia’s FX collection. They’re great. I’ve worked with a lot of Waves plugins too. They’re great. And hundreds of plugins from various others, free as well as commercial, as well as stock. They’re great. I’ve used tons of hardware too. It’s great. 
Among the many thousands of plugins available today, anyone, rich or poor, can find something that when properly used will sound great. End of story. Now go be creative, y’all.


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## audio1 (Aug 29, 2021)

All commercial samples and sample libraries, I tend to use plugins as "deconstruction" tools, to bring them back to some sort of reality because developers usually go way too far with processing the source signal, thinking their providing a head start. For instance's, I'd rather have any orchestral library or instrument delivered completely flat, minus any eq or dynamics on the source. This would allow me to work faster, creating better, more natural sound mixes due to having more control over sonics instead of being stuck with a developers idea of a "mastered" one size fits all set of samples for use in anyones work, regardless of context, which they have no idea about. For instance, Abbey Road drums, EZ Drums. They sound great by themselves, but once you start mixing in other instruments they need to be stripped down to flat because you're stuck with their idea of how the drums might sound in your music they have never heard. Its a one size fits all guess on thier end, which means you need to mangle them further with more plugins. If delivered flat, it would be more fun allowing for more sonic options. Same with orchestral libraries. With that, plugins are here to stay for obvious reasons, but I wish developers would offer "flat" non-processed versions of all their samples. If they all did this, many would be shocked at how much better things would sound and would also allow people to learn how to even more creative, mix better from scratch, without the sonic restrictions developers apply to their products because of said "one size fits all" processing.


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## Dietz (Aug 29, 2021)

audio1 said:


> I wish developers would offer "flat" non-processed versions of all their samples.


VSL does*). You would be astonished to hear what people are actually asking for, though. 

_*) ... except corrective EQing and/or denoising of individual samples to make them "fit in"._


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## SupremeFist (Aug 29, 2021)

Wirebird said:


> just an incredibly misplaced impulse to attract possible mating partners.


This explains so much dumb stuff that men do.


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## audio1 (Aug 29, 2021)

Dietz said:


> _*) ... except corrective EQing and/or denoising of individual samples to make them "fit in"._


I guess thats why I love big bang series, plus I just prefer the sound of the VSL rooms.

Curious, can you explain what "_corrective EQing and/or denoising" is done without exposing any VSL "tricks of the trade" or special methods and processing? Of course if you don't feel comfortable answering I completely understand._


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## Dietz (Aug 29, 2021)

audio1 said:


> I guess thats why I love big bang series, plus I just prefer the sound of the VSL rooms.
> 
> Curious, can you explain what "_corrective EQing and/or denoising" is done without exposing any VSL "tricks of the trade" or special methods and processing? Of course if you don't feel comfortable answering I completely understand._


Going into details would make this thread going OT quickly, but it's less fancy than you might think (while still being extremely time-consuming): Getting rid of (say) LF rumble, exposed ambiance noises, single squeaks or obviously unwanted harmonics from the instrument ... you name it. Tools like unobtrusive EQs, RX Advanced (or similar in-house applications) ... actually just proper audio engineering, on a large (or actually quite molecular) scale.


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## Mike Greene (Aug 29, 2021)

Note that if you write in your post that you're putting people on your ignore list, then I will probably delete that post. (I deleted 3 just now.)

I hate the Ignore button, for reasons that should be obvious. (This is a forum, not a social media fans page.) Even more, I hate the passive-aggressive _"Welcome to my ignore list"_ statements that it enables. If you're going to post aggressively, then you need to accept that there may be blowback. Announcing that you choose to ignore people who disagree with you does not make for a healthy forum.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Aug 30, 2021)

In my early years, working in a Camerastore, a customer asked me: „Now, what’s finally better, Canon or Nikon (the high-end models).

I replied that it’s a matter of taste. He got really angry about that and told me
that it’s NEVER about Taste, only a matter of quality.

Then I said that it depends on if he prefers more plasticity, which Nikon Cams obviously did, or a more harmonically overall image as Canons did.

Does the like to have that controls there, or elsewhere. That style of sharpness, or that kind of bouquet.

I tried to tell him that there is no absolute ideal, because someone prefers
this over that. Sometimes even only because of individual physical conditions (in this case button layout, weight…etc.)

He didn’t get the idea and left, still thinking there has to be made a choice from somebody else than him.

I still think like this, but now with Audio Stuff, is that wrong somehow?


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## darkinners (Aug 30, 2021)

First I think stock plug-ins has came a long way, They are really competent now, I myself has a lot of commercial premium plugins that either sound better, has better features, enable me work faster, downright unique features that you won’t find in other alternative never mind stock plugins.
Still, that doesn’t take away that many stock plugins came with the DAW now are vastly capable. You can absolutely make professional sounding record with them given the person use them know what they are doing, the source materials and the tune itself are great.


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## el-bo (Aug 30, 2021)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> I still think like this, but now with Audio Stuff, is that wrong somehow?


I don't think it's wrong. I doubt there are many real clangers anymore, so the differences are likely to be more about features, workflow and/or even just (not) liking a particular GUI.


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## AudioLoco (Aug 30, 2021)

All this debate would be over if Steinberg (they have the worst stock ones probably - I never use them, while I hear some Logic and other users sometimes enjoy their stock processors) and other DAW companies would just pay something to license and include a great channel strip, a bus compressor, a limiter, a reverb and a delay from a third party company BUILT IN (well mostly a channel strip). Something like like Harrison did. I don't understand what is preventing Yamaha from doing that or aquiring a little very good plugin manufacturer. 
It would be a great selling point. 
That is what on a reverse situation UA are trying to do with Luna.
They could also include it as an extra, slightly more expensive version to be able to afford it: 
"Cubase Consolle TM", "Solid State Logic-Logic" or something like that....


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## Dietz (Aug 30, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> Steinberg (they have the worst stock ones probably


Visually ungarnished maybe, but some of them are actually really, really good (... have been like that for years, in some cases) and quite efficient on top of it: ModMachine, QuadraFuzz 2, Supervision, Surround Multi-Tap, Multiband Imager, even the channel-strip's Enveloper and Vintage Compressor are great.


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## TomislavEP (Aug 30, 2021)

I firmly believe that it is possible to accomplish most tasks with the stock plugins or those made by "mainstream" developers such as Native Instruments and IZotope (at least from my own experience). I agree though that boutique plugins are a more affordable and easily obtainable alternative to certain hardware that would be simply out of reach for most of us due to its price, scarcity, or other reasons. However, in my book, they're still quite a luxury in most cases.


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## AudioLoco (Aug 30, 2021)

Dietz said:


> Visually ungarnished maybe, but some of them are actually really, really good (... have been like that for years, in some cases) and quite efficient on top of it: ModMachine, QuadraFuzz 2, Supervision, Surround Multi-Tap, Multiband Imager, even the channel-strip's Enveloper and Vintage Compressor are great.


You are right...  Actually I do use QuadraFuzz here and there, it's not bad at all.... Also the gate plugin works pretty well...
Will also check out (again) the others you mentioned. 

The channel strip and dynamics are definitely rather abysmal though.


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## Tim_Wells (Aug 30, 2021)

I'm not saying there's no difference, but I also think we hear what we want to hear. 

I watched a YT video this morning using the stock plugins in Cubase. The guy's an expert and the mix sounded incredible. I honestly can't imagine premium plugins making any meaningful difference.


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## audio1 (Aug 30, 2021)

I use to pay $500 a plugin. Yes, they use to cost that much. Had a whole bunch. Have a bunch more now because thier so cheap. I Don't even use a 50% of what I own, but some are "nice to have" colors for special sonic occasions.

Otherwise...

My recommendation:

There is no magic in a bottle, so don't buy any 3rd party plugins unless you're really confident in your mixing skills. Use stock and the bottomless pit of free stuff.


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