# Help me choose, or I will die



## ImJim (Apr 11, 2021)

I'm going crazy. Hours and hours of comparisons.

All these libs have great sweet spots, but to me none of them seem to stand out from the other. I just want a romantic & versatile solo string quartet.

I don't know what to choose.

Now you guys decide.

I'll pull the trigger on the winner of the poll.

Good luck guys.


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## cqd (Apr 11, 2021)

Cremona quartet..


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## Trash Panda (Apr 11, 2021)

Audio Modeling SWAM Strings or Sample Modeling Solos & Ensembles.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 11, 2021)

Xsample Contemporary Solo Strings


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## jbuhler (Apr 11, 2021)

This indecision is the nature of the beast, I'm afraid, and it can't be solved without knowing what you want. So the first thing is which of the demos did you like best, keeping in mind that the library likely won't have sweet spots outside of what is demoed. It's generally true that you can't trust that an instrument will do anything beyond what's demonstrated, but that is especially true for solo strings.

I can that I have very much liked the Spitfire Solo Strings, and that they have worked for me both as spot soloists within the orchestra and for the kind of string quartet miniatures I've been writing over the past year or so. My go-to quartet right now is the first chair SSoS violin for first violin, a combination of the progressive violin from SSoS and the AltSS violin for second violin, and then the viola and cello from SSoS. I just got the first chair Berlin instruments and will audition the violins from that set for the second violin.

But I've also had success with the XSample solo strings for some kinds of material, and indeed OT's Amber quartet and soloists from 8Dio's Intimate Studio Strings for other kinds of material. I imagine the solo strings from 8dio's Adagio also have an excellent, if very limited, sweet spot, although you might have to deal with the medical bills of slamming your head against the wall to find it.

Edit to change incorrect library name.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 11, 2021)

All of them?


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## jbuhler (Apr 11, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> All of them?


This is the only sensible answer.


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## Robert_G (Apr 11, 2021)

Emotional series from Best Service is as versatile as they get.


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## ImJim (Apr 11, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> This indecision is the nature of the beast, I'm afraid, and it can't be solved without knowing what you want. So the first thing is which of the demos did you like best, keeping in mind that the library likely won't have sweet spots outside of what is demoed. It's generally true that you can't trust that an instrument will do anything beyond what's demonstrated, but that is especially true for solo strings.
> 
> I can that I have very much liked the Spitfire Solo Strings, and that they have worked for me both as spot soloists within the orchestra and for the kind of string quartet miniatures I've been writing over the past year or so. My go-to quartet right now is the first chair SSoS violin for first violin, a combination of the progressive violin from SSoS and the AltSS violin for second violin, and then the viola and cello from SSoS. I just got the first chair Berlin instruments and will audition the violins from that set for the second violin.
> 
> But I've also had success with the XSample solo strings for some kinds of material, and indeed OT's Amber quartet and soloists from 8Dio's Intimate Solo Strings for other kinds of material. I imagine the solo strings from 8dio's Adagio also have an excellent, if very limited, sweet spot, although you might have to deal with the medical bills of slamming your head against the wall to find it.


Thank you for the detailed answer.

Well, judging by the demos, I think CSSS has the edge both in tone & realism.

I'm thinking about this demo in particular: 

I found the overall tone very pleasing and the playing very smooth. Almost real. I should have mentioned that I'm looking for a somewhat warm & vintage sound, although most of the retro feel will come with mixing and processing.

Spitfire has a nice, rich, and full tone, as always (as an owner of SSS and SStS I can't deny it). But judging from the Paul Thompson walkthrough on YT, I'm not sure the legato really competes with CSSS (?). Legato scripting is probably my number one priority next to tone & room sound. I'm planning on doing soaring legato lines 90% of the time, so...

EDIT: the demo I linked also uses CSS, true. But Alex's demo is already a fantastic example by itself:


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## ImJim (Apr 11, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> This is the only sensible answer.


I was excepting that. I should have added this option in the poll, obviously.


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## jbuhler (Apr 11, 2021)

ImJim said:


> Thank you for the detailed answer.
> 
> Well, judging by the demos, I think CSSS has the edge both in tone & realism.
> 
> ...



I don't have CSSS and so can't comment on how it works in practice, but I say if that's the sound that speaks to you that you should trust yourself on it. Our guts are usually much better guides on these kinds of decisions than our conscious thinking.


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## ImJim (Apr 11, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> Emotional series from Best Service is as versatile as they get.


How would you rate the tone and WaRmTh ?


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## ImJim (Apr 11, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Audio Modeling SWAM Strings or Sample Modeling Solos & Ensembles.


Can't see myself spending hours trying to get SWAM to sound good by itself without tons of processing. Although I truly love Ensemble & Solo Strings, they also need a lot of processing to sound natural "out of the box".


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## Gingerbread (Apr 11, 2021)

Have you seen this? Varied examples comparing CSSS with CineStrings Solo, starting at 17:52


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## YuyaoSG (Apr 11, 2021)

Only children make choices, adults will want them all (Joking).

I will choose Cinematic Studio Solo Strings.


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## Marsen (Apr 11, 2021)

No, i won't. 

Can we please stop with these childish, annoying clickbait titles?
Help me or I die *cause of a sample purchase?

Thanks, and have a nice day.


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## ImJim (Apr 11, 2021)

Marsen said:


> No, i won't.
> 
> Can we please stop with these childish, annoying clickbait titles?
> Help me or I die *cause of a sample purchase?
> ...


Then don't waste your time posting here and go your way. Cheers!


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## ImJim (Apr 11, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Xsample Contemporary Solo Strings


Never heard about this one, will look it up!


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## ImJim (Apr 11, 2021)

Gingerbread said:


> Have you seen this? Varied examples comparing CSSS with CineStrings Solo, starting at 17:52



Yes, I watched this literally 10 minutes ago  Does CineStrings Solo have portamento ?


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## Crowe (Apr 11, 2021)

Oh man. Don't spend money based on on a poll.

Personally, I'm partial to the Embertone Solo Strings. It took me multiple weeks of reading, watching videos and listening to demos to make my choice. 'Hours and hours' of comparisons seems kinda normal when making such an important choice.

I suggest choosing two, compare them into oblivion and choose a winner. Then do it again with two other libraries. And again. Pit the winners against each other.

Think about which other libraries you have or want. If you mainly use drier libraries, get drier solo strings. If you use Spitfire Symphonic or Chamber Strings, maybe getting the Spitfire solo strings is sensible.

Considering all the different opinions you're going to get, I'm afraid you gon' die.


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## Stringtree (Apr 11, 2021)

Oh my gosh, somebody is going to die over this. I just wanted to make sure this wasn't really the case. 

The violin is JB Violin. I've filled in those other spaces with other Embertone offerings. Tina Guo Cello sounds heavenly, but I don't have it. 

I have some 8Dio Studio Strings that get close, but there's no real way I'm mocking up a serious string quartet. To my ears, most of the libraries lack the human breathing and humanity of the real thing. 

Spitfire Alternative Solo Strings fills a spot the others don't. Or VSL. This is such a hard question, and it's related to how the instruments are used. 

@ImJim pointed to some fantastic stuff, and the material is largely dependent on the skill and thoughtfulness of the composer and orchestrator. 

I wish there were a four-banger that would do Schubert, Beethoven, Britten, Ravel, but I haven't found it. The language of unfretted strings is too vast and nuanced.


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## ImJim (Apr 11, 2021)

Shiirai said:


> Oh man. Don't spend money based on on a poll.
> 
> Personally, I'm partial to the Embertone Solo Strings. It took me multiple weeks of reading, watching videos and listening to demos to make my choice. 'Hours and hours' of comparisons seems kinda normal when making such an important choice.
> 
> ...


Haha. I know, but I'm literally on the fence of buying either CSSS or Spitfire (and even maybe CineStrings Solo) that I'm almost ready to pull the trigger on the best overall library based on users feedback.

I love reading in depth posts and following arguments between actual longtime users who had the opportunity to compare all those libs, rather than being tricked by a few over-processed demos on SoundCloud.


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## ImJim (Apr 11, 2021)

Stringtree said:


> Oh my gosh, somebody is going to die over this. I just wanted to make sure this wasn't really the case.
> 
> The violin is JB Violin. I've filled in those other spaces with other Embertone offerings. Tina Guo Cello sounds heavenly, but I don't have it.
> 
> ...


I will die, literally. I NEED a solid string quartet for a major client. Deadline is shorter than expected. And I'm not ready at all.
For now my top 3 remains CSSS, Spitfire and CineStrings.

CSSS cons: frustrating inbuilt delay - no control over vibrato.

Spitfire: legato & overall scripting doesn't sound that impressive compared to CSSS.

CineStrings: colder sound, no portamento.

I'll end up drawing lots on these, I'm sure.


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## cqd (Apr 11, 2021)

Cremona beat's CSSS for me anyway..was considering picking up cinestrings solo as it was on sale but listening to the two of them decided against it..


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## Robert_G (Apr 11, 2021)

ImJim said:


> Haha. I know, but I'm literally on the fence of buying either CSSS or Spitfire (and even maybe CineStrings Solo)


I'm not sure if you understand the differences between all these libraries.
You asked for versatile. I have CSSS and I can tell you that the only thing it is good for is a first chair for CSS....although it makes a fantastic first chair, but it is not in any way versatile. 

If you are looking for a real solo strings library with all the articulations that can do the fringe techniques, you will be very disappointed with libraries like CSSS.

Emotional Violin, Cello, and Viola have somewhere around 200 articulations between the 3 of them and the Emotional Violin also comes with an 'Intimate' Violin that can easily be configured to work as a 2nd Violin.

Other options are Tina Guo Cello and Joshua Bell Violin. These also have a wide arrangement of articulations.
8Dio is an option too with their new solo strings, but I'm not a huge fan....but they do have the versatility that you are looking for.

My suggestion is to go to Best Service and watch a few walkthroughs and listen to the demos. There isn't a more complete Solo Strings package out there than Emotional Violin, Viola, and Cello.


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## Robert_G (Apr 11, 2021)

ImJim said:


> I will die, literally. I NEED a solid string quartet for a major client. Deadline is shorter than expected. And I'm not ready at all.
> For now my top 3 remains CSSS, Spitfire and CineStrings.
> 
> CSSS cons: frustrating inbuilt delay - no control over vibrato.
> ...



Also another note, that Cinestrings Solo is also very limited in articulations....not to mention it's a very old library and badly needs replacement or updating.

Spitfire Solo Strings is more versatile then the other 2 you are interested in, but keep in mind that it is recorded at AIR studios so good luck mixing it with other libraries that aren't from Spitfire Symphony Orchestra.


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## AMBi (Apr 11, 2021)

CSSS and Berlin probably sound best in the context of a quartet.

8dio Deep Solos have the best sustains and especially beautiful built in arcs and crescendos.

Cinesamples Solos sound good for soloist stuff (from what I can tell from the demos) but can sound a little flat at times.

Spitfire Solos and the Emotional series are pretty well rounded but the legato transitions can be pretty noticeable

Solo string libraries tend to have their own very specific strength and might leave you disappointed outside of that strength so deciding which strength best suits your music style is something a poll can't really decide sadly 😅


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## jbuhler (Apr 11, 2021)

The problem with most solo strings libraries is that they are designed to be soloists, and so they often don’t play well with others. That is, like soloists they expect the ensemble to conform to them rather than working as part of an ensemble. So first chairs often work better for quartets and other chamber music. Except then you quickly hit the limitations of the available articulations. 

Then too it depends on what you need these to do. Some will be adequate for writing—and for writing I think having a sound you like is paramount, more important than the number of articulations (though it’s nice to have at least one library for each instrument with an extensive articulation kit). But I’m not sure any of these libraries will get you to deliverable quality as a quartet. You’ll need to rerecord them or write something where the VI character is what you are after. I’ve been happy with the miniatures I’ve produced, and the sound is fine for demonstration purposes i think. But I’m certain they would sound much better played by a quartet.


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## Baronvonheadless (Apr 11, 2021)

The Chris Hein Cello plus Joshua Bell violin is an unbeatable combination for me. Fuck the viola!


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## John Longley (Apr 11, 2021)

Chris Hein Complete


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## Scalms (Apr 11, 2021)

Another vote for Emotional series. Tone is beautiful, with the room having a wonderful quality. A million articulations as mentioned above.

CSSS (which I own) has robotic sounding vibrato, sounds fakey to me over time.

Vibrato variation across the note is what is important to me when it comes to solo strings, if it's static it just doesn't sound quite right.

I have Berlin Exp and they are my second choice, quite natural sounding vibrato and beautiful tone, legato is a little iffy but workable


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## Arbee (Apr 11, 2021)

If you had time on your side and don't want to buy a new solo strings library every time the next job reveals its shortcomings, I suggest VSL Solo Strings or Xsample and learn them well.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Apr 11, 2021)

ImJim said:


> CSSS cons: frustrating inbuilt delay


The delay is optional, actually. You can just use patches with 125ms delay instead, and they'll be comparable with the delay you get from other strings on the market. (And the legato transition lengths will likewise be shorter, like other strings.)


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## Thundercat (Apr 11, 2021)

YuyaoSG said:


> Only children make choices, adults will want them all (Joking).
> 
> I will choose Cinematic Studio Solo Strings.


Everyone likes to have choices; no one likes to make decisions!


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## Bman70 (Apr 11, 2021)

I must be missing something. It doesn't matter what libraries I buy, my music still sounds basically the same. I guess I haven't reached that level where buying the right library makes me sound like Hans Zimmer.


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## Thundercat (Apr 11, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> I'm not sure if you understand the differences between all these libraries.
> You asked for versatile. I have CSSS and I can tell you that the only thing it is good for is a first chair for CSS....although it makes a fantastic first chair, but it is not in any way versatile.
> 
> If you are looking for a real solo strings library with all the articulations that can do the fringe techniques, you will be very disappointed with libraries like CSSS.
> ...


But you have to like the sound! I personally cannot get on with the Emotional Series. I think the playability and "life like" performance aspects are great, but quite often the sound devolves into being "synthy" and fake sounding to my ears.

But in the context of a larger ensemble I don't think it's an issue. However the OP is asking for solo strings, so...


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## Baronvonheadless (Apr 11, 2021)

Thundercat said:


> Everyone likes to have choices; no one likes to make decisions!


Freedom of choice! Is what you got! Freedom from choice! Is what you want!


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## doctoremmet (Apr 11, 2021)

Have you chosen yet? Would hate to see a life go to waste over a bunch of samples.


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## Thorgod10 (Apr 12, 2021)

Hello, string player by occupation here. Despite my "new" nature on these forums I have played, own, or extensively listened to every string library that there is to own.

What you need is to buy a special two that cover what each other can not, and that would be..
*drum roll*

Swam v3, and Sample Modeling strings.

Yes, that is correct.
Sampling can never properly emulate the modulating characteristics of a soloistic performance, so you will need to resort to modeling.
These two VST's together will cover every genre, every playstyle, every nuance you could possibly ever need from base level performance.
Sample Modeling For dramatique, classical, crisp melodic passages.
SWAM for anime, video gamey, close and gritty string intimacy.

I know much about these libraries and have used them a ton, and am down to answer any questions about them if you have any.


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## reutunes (Apr 12, 2021)

Chris Hein.

Also, change the distasteful clickbait title.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 12, 2021)

reutunes said:


> Chris Hein.
> 
> Also, change the distasteful clickbait title.


I’d like to +1 Chris Hein and add that one to my initial Xsample answer. The concept of note heads alone makes it worthwile getting CH.


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## col (Apr 12, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> The Chris Hein Cello plus Joshua Bell violin is an unbeatable combination for me



I second the motion . & csss


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## Crowe (Apr 12, 2021)

Don't change the title, I like it.

It's obviously tongue-in-cheek.

@OP: The answer is still Embertone Intimate Solo Strings, btw.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 12, 2021)

Allow me to also +1 the Embertone range. It is in my top three


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## jsnleo (Apr 12, 2021)

I recently wrote a song and needed a solo cello. I only had CSSS but just couldn’t use it because of the prominent vibrato. I wanted to get Berlin First Chairs but had seen a few bad reviews, though the new walkthrough video sounded good to me. Tone-wise, it might be my favorite. I think I’ll grab it anyways. I always wanted to get Spitfire Solo Strings but in comparison it didn’t sound as good as Berlin FC. Didn’t consider Bohemian because it uses iLok. Tina Guo sounded pretty good but passed it because of the range. I bought Emotional Cello and thought it sounded good but I only spent a little time with it, I think I’ll get the rest as well. Still thinking of getting Embertone, because I already have JB, but I think they all sounded a little bright? 8Dio sounded a little bit harsh and scratchy.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 12, 2021)

jsnleo said:


> I recently wrote a song and needed a solo cello. I only had CSSS but just couldn’t use it because of the prominent vibrato. I wanted to get Berlin First Chairs but had seen a few bad reviews, though the new walkthrough video sounded good to me. Tone-wise, it might be my favorite. I think I’ll grab it anyways. I always wanted to get Spitfire Solo Strings but in comparison it didn’t sound as good as Berlin FC. Didn’t consider Bohemian because it uses iLok. Tina Guo sounded pretty good but passed it because of the range. I bought Emotional Cello and thought it sounded good but I only spent a little time with it, I think I’ll get the rest as well. Still thinking of getting Embertone, because I already have JB, but I think they all sounded a little bright? 8Dio sounded a little bit harsh and scratchy.


Have you tried the free Pocket Blakus? It is actually good. 
(Also: Chris Hein and Xsample have excellent celli)


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## DANIELE (Apr 12, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Audio Modeling SWAM Strings or Sample Modeling Solos & Ensembles.


I second that and I add Infinite Strings.


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## jsnleo (Apr 12, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Have you tried the free Pocket Blakus? It is actually good.
> (Also: Chris Hein and Xsample have excellent celli)


Yes I did and I remember reading your posts, but the range is also a little bit too limited for what I wrote.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 12, 2021)

jsnleo said:


> Yes I did and I remember reading your posts, but the range is also a little bit too limited for what I wrote.


Gotcha. It's all about horses for coarses and sweet spots, innit?


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## ImJim (Apr 12, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> I'm not sure if you understand the differences between all these libraries.
> You asked for versatile. I have CSSS and I can tell you that the only thing it is good for is a first chair for CSS....although it makes a fantastic first chair, but it is not in any way versatile.
> 
> If you are looking for a real solo strings library with all the articulations that can do the fringe techniques, you will be very disappointed with libraries like CSSS.
> ...


I've been unclear when I said versatile... I meant I was going for a sound that can easily blend with other libraries (as I own Berlin, SSS and MSS).

I bet 80% of my work will consist of big soaring legato lines, that's why I want perfect legato transitions & portamento. Basic articulations will be enough, I'm not looking for a 200 articulation lib that's not capable of basic realistic legato.

At the end of the day, what I would need is rather a "first chairs" type of setup.


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## ImJim (Apr 12, 2021)

Thorgod10 said:


> I know much about these libraries and have used them a ton, and am down to answer any questions about them if you have any.


Wow, it's great to have you here then! A few days ago I wrote an entire post about how Sample Modeling Solo & ensemble strings sounded insane due to its flexibility and agility, and I asked why so few people actually took the time to explore this lib. Maybe you could read it and give me your opinion, since you're a real SM user?

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/no-library-comes-close-to-this.107040/


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## ImJim (Apr 12, 2021)

jsnleo said:


> I recently wrote a song and needed a solo cello. I only had CSSS but just couldn’t use it because of the prominent vibrato. I wanted to get Berlin First Chairs but had seen a few bad reviews, though the new walkthrough video sounded good to me. Tone-wise, it might be my favorite. I think I’ll grab it anyways. I always wanted to get Spitfire Solo Strings but in comparison it didn’t sound as good as Berlin FC. Didn’t consider Bohemian because it uses iLok. Tina Guo sounded pretty good but passed it because of the range. I bought Emotional Cello and thought it sounded good but I only spent a little time with it, I think I’ll get the rest as well. Still thinking of getting Embertone, because I already have JB, but I think they all sounded a little bright? 8Dio sounded a little bit harsh and scratchy.


Berlin sounds so good and natural.

CSSS overuse of vibrato scares me a bit.

Embertone is great! But, it's a very particular tone that I think will be a challenge for blending in with other libs or a full orchestra.

8Dio's quality & scripting varies a lot between products, it's so annoying.


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## ImJim (Apr 12, 2021)

reutunes said:


> Chris Hein.
> 
> Also, change the distasteful clickbait title.


Please show a bit of compassion for the life of a fellow VI user.


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## ImJim (Apr 12, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Have you chosen yet? Would hate to see a life go to waste over a bunch of samples.


I'm getting closer. Eliminated CineSamples. And even as an owner of all CineBrass and CineWinds stuff, which are wonderful, I admit this company is just not there yet with string programming.

I'm still torn between Berlin First Chairs (Exp. D), Spitfire Solo Strings & CSSS. 

Yup, CSSS is still in the list even if its constant vibrato turns me off, because I will write romantic / soaring / 60s music type of stuff, so maybe vibrato will be justified here.

Berlin & Spitfire are my Top 2 I think.


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## Thorgod10 (Apr 12, 2021)

ImJim said:


> Wow, it's great to have you here then! A few days ago I wrote an entire post about how Sample Modeling Solo & ensemble strings sounded insane due to its flexibility and agility, and I asked why so few people actually took the time to explore this lib. Maybe you could read it and give me your opinion, since you're a real SM user?
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/no-library-comes-close-to-this.107040/


I'll actually do you a solid and post some extremely simple demos, and go into it a little bit.

See, with the world of sampling and VSTS, every one is made for a specific purpose.
When you are going ahead and writing your virtual violin, WHY not just hire a actual violin player?
To save money, time, and to have the piece sound exactly your way.

This is where, almost immediately, every single string violin library sounds short, because you have to write for them, or hope what's in your brain sounds good on its samples.

With modeled strings, you are only imposing a SMALL amount of synthiness, for infinite expression.
If such a small amount of synth would ever bother a client, then at that point, they can surely afford a violinist to play your piece. There's literally no going around it.

To further elaborate my point, with absolutely no effort at all, no CC manipulation, here is me playing Mendelsohn Violin Concerto in E Minor, just by watching my velocity and slapping M7 on it.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 12, 2021)

ImJim said:


> I'm getting closer. Eliminated CineSamples. And even as an owner of all CineBrass and CineWinds stuff, which are wonderful, I admit this company is just not there yet with string programming.
> 
> I'm still torn between Berlin First Chairs (Exp. D), Spitfire Solo Strings & CSSS.
> 
> ...


Solid choices. Spitfire Solo Strings is the only Spitfire library I own, apart from some $29 Originals and SA stuff.


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## jaketanner (Apr 12, 2021)

ImJim said:


> I'm going crazy. Hours and hours of comparisons.
> 
> All these libs have great sweet spots, but to me none of them seem to stand out from the other. I just want a romantic & versatile solo string quartet.
> 
> ...


Very bad idea. What works for others might not work for you. Buying libraries based off polls (unless it really doesn't matter to you) is not a good idea. There are differences between these libraries that can make or break it for you.

SF solo strings is much more geared towards classical and I hate the vibrato, but you do get 3 different violin sounds to choose from also. 

CSSS has a delay that might drive you nuts, and also might be too much "expression" for many things. The overall sound is good, but aside from using them to add some detail to CSS, I never used them as solo strings.

Cinesamples has ONLY bow change legato and might not work for all passages, but I LOVE the portamento and the expressive nature of the violin. Limited in articulations compared to the others. 

Don't have Berlin, but that is also a bit on the classical side.

I have MANY 8DIO strings...don't like any of them, but that is my preference, not necessarily that they are bad. I don't care for their legato really (I don't have Century though)...but if the sound speaks to you, that might work.

Most solo string libraries are great as first chairs to their ensemble counterparts...this is how I use them. If I want dedicated solo strings, I buy libraries that are meant to be that way...like JB violin, or Emotion Cello...etc etc.

If you want a nice quartet...Berlin first chairs is great, and VSL also has excellent libraries. But for true solo work (like if you had a guest soloist), you would be better off getting dedicated libraries.


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## jsnleo (Apr 12, 2021)

ImJim said:


> Berlin sounds so good and natural.
> 
> CSSS overuse of vibrato scares me a bit.
> 
> ...


Yeah I really like the Berlin FC and because I have Berlin Strings I think I should get it.

I think CSSS only sounds good with CSS, otherwise it always sounds too much. I tried so many times using CSSS cello or violin with a piano, harp and I always replaced it with something else.


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## ImJim (Apr 12, 2021)

jsnleo said:


> Yeah I really like the Berlin FC and because I have Berlin Strings I think I should get it.
> 
> I think CSSS only sounds good with CSS, otherwise it always sounds too much. I tried so many times using CSSS cello or violin with a piano, harp and I always replaced it with something else.


Leaning towards Berlin First chairs more & more. Makes sense because I already own Berlin Strings main library and use it all the time.

Rewatched the whole Berlin First chairs 2.0 videos on YouTube, very pristine sound.

Now that's a fight between Berlin & Spitfire. Maybe one day I'll end up buying the two. Makes sense too cause I own Spitfire Symphonic Strings & Studio Strings.

And, as the wise men of this forum always say: "You never have enough string libraries."


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## jsnleo (Apr 12, 2021)

ImJim said:


> Leaning towards Berlin First chairs more & more. Makes sense because I already own Berlin Strings main library and use it all the time.
> 
> Rewatched the whole Berlin First chairs 2.0 videos on YouTube, very pristine sound.
> 
> ...


I almost pulled the trigger on Spitfire but then I watched this one.



I believe I've seen some posts about not liking the sound. I always thought it sounded good but I think Berlin FC just sounded better in this video.


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## FinGael (Apr 12, 2021)

Every one of us is going to die. Choosing the right solo string library is a much more difficult task.


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Apr 12, 2021)

jsnleo said:


> I almost pulled the trigger on Spitfire but then I watched this one.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe I've seen some posts about not liking the sound. I always thought it sounded good but I think Berlin FC just sounded better in this video.



Note that for CSSS it uses the classic legato patch! For such a composition, it is better to use only the advanced mode with a slow legato transition that will give more convincing performance.


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Apr 12, 2021)

ImJim said:


> Spitfire has a nice, rich, and full tone, as always (as an owner of SSS and SStS I can't deny it). But judging from the Paul Thompson walkthrough on YT, I'm not sure the legato really competes with CSSS (?). Legato scripting is probably my number one priority next to tone & room sound. I'm planning on doing soaring legato lines 90% of the time, so...


You're right. In my works, I also use legato lines in 80-90% of cases. My music is mostly romantic and lyrical in nature. CSSS has an incredibly realistic legato. When I try something else like Spitfire or OT don't give me that and I go back to CSSS. Personally, for my style of music, this is my favorite instrument. It has much of the romanticism that was captured by the musicians. They are expressive and sing very well on all dynamic ranges. Also without vibrato, they have a true legato, which unfortunately CSS does not have. For me, the choice is obvious, it's CSSS! And for you? What kind of music do you write, or are you going to write?


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## jbuhler (Apr 12, 2021)

jsnleo said:


> I recently wrote a song and needed a solo cello. I only had CSSS but just couldn’t use it because of the prominent vibrato. I wanted to get Berlin First Chairs but had seen a few bad reviews, though the new walkthrough video sounded good to me. Tone-wise, it might be my favorite. I think I’ll grab it anyways. I always wanted to get Spitfire Solo Strings but in comparison it didn’t sound as good as Berlin FC. Didn’t consider Bohemian because it uses iLok. Tina Guo sounded pretty good but passed it because of the range. I bought Emotional Cello and thought it sounded good but I only spent a little time with it, I think I’ll get the rest as well. Still thinking of getting Embertone, because I already have JB, but I think they all sounded a little bright? 8Dio sounded a little bit harsh and scratchy.


I have both SSoS and Berlin First Chairs. The Berlin, like CSS, is really designed as first chairs and as such has a more limited set of articulations and nothing like the total performance patches of the SF virtuoso violin and cello.


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## SupremeFist (Apr 12, 2021)

I mainly write slow, lyrical lines, but the CSSS vib is too much for me. Also realised Cinesamples isn't for me because the legato is only bow-change. Currently weighing up Chris Hein vs xsample — which do you prefer @doctoremmet ?


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## doctoremmet (Apr 12, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> I mainly write slow, lyrical lines, but the CSSS vib is too much for me. Also realised Cinesamples isn't for me because the legato is only bow-change. Currently weighing up Chris Hein vs xsample — which do you prefer @doctoremmet ?


Not the answer you want; but both have their strenghts... Hein offers a lot of variation in tone (14 instruments in the bundle) and more articulations... Hans Josef somehow always manages to impress me the most with instruments that have a certain sound I apparently like the best. So for ME Xsample wins. I have to say though that Embertone may take the crown here. ISS + JB is a set of samples I would not want to miss.... so yeah. I think you may want to check the Xsample website in a week or so, there may or may not be a mid april sale


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## jbuhler (Apr 12, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> I mainly write slow, lyrical lines, but the CSSS vib is too much for me. Also realised Cinesamples isn't for me because the legato is only bow-change. Currently weighing up Chris Hein vs xsample — which do you prefer @doctoremmet ?


I think Xsample Solo Strings struggle with lyricism, and the virtues of these libraries lies in the short notes and large number of extended techniques. As far as I’m aware the legato is programmed. It’s remarkably good and allows you to dial in portamento at pretty much any rate you want, but i think anyone concerned with the difference between bow change and fingered legato will be disappointed. xsample instruments also have fairly steep learning curves.


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## SupremeFist (Apr 12, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Not the answer you want; but both have their strenghts... Hein offers a lot of variation in tone (14 instruments in the bundle) and more articulations... Hans Josef somehow always manages to impress me the most with instruments that have a certain sound I apparently like the best. So for ME Xsample wins. I have to say though that Embertone may take the crown here. ISS + JB is a set of samples I would not want to miss.... so yeah. I think you may want to check the Xsample website in a week or so, there may or may not be a mid april sale


Ha! JB doesn't work for me in this context (as discussed in another thread), but maybe I should take a closer look at ISS...


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## SupremeFist (Apr 12, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I think Xsample Solo Strings struggle with lyricism, and the virtues of these libraries lies in the short notes and large number of extended techniques.


OK that is good to know. I have Neo strings which have an excellent range of extended techniques already but not all the instruments work as I'd wish for my kind of legato lines, so with xsample I might end up duplicating stuff...


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## ism (Apr 12, 2021)

ImJim said:


> CSSS cons: frustrating inbuilt delay


The thing here is the frustrating inbuilt delay is actually how real string instruments work. This is also CSSS' single deviation from laser focus on optimization for plonkability. The upside is that it makes you think, at least a little bit, about crafting strings lines idiomatically. Rather than pandering entirely to piano players. 

Which is perhaps the hardest, most frustrating - and most interesting and exciting thing about learning to write for solo strings with samples.

CSSS is great at what it's great at precisely because of this plonkabilty. It has a beautiful progressive vibrato baked right into it. And this is a beautiful arc, but not one you have much control over. Deviate from the musicality of this arc and ... things go badly.

If you're looking for credible idiomatic string writing, then one approach is to pick a library that bakes the performance in (CSSS, Bohemian, Tina Guo, etc) and ruthlessly restrict your writing to very precisely colouring within the lines of that idiom. You can get very nice sound + some plonkability in this. Provided of course that what you need to write fits within these predetermined lines.

Or you can go to the modelled/ programmable end of the spectrum - (SWAM, Chris Hein etc). In which case the frustration of the CSSS delay will pale in comparison of the effort of programming the idiomatic. Also, the modelling techiques imo give you this expressivity only at significant cost to the sound. (Note that CH, though virtuosic in expressiveness, are recorded bone dry, and I think in mono)


Emotional Violin/Cello/Viola are somewhere in the middle (though also very, very dry). You don't get great control over dynamics or vibrato, but you have a *lot* of idiomatic performances available. Crafting lines with EV and all the key switches is fun, and an education in idiomatic violin performance in itself. "Idiomatic lego" is how I think of it. But I think that all the crossfading and whatever else it requires comes at a cost to the sonority. Or at least in requiring it to be recorded bone dry. Which is ok for a virtuosic soloist, but I'm not sure how it would translate to an quartet.

Spitfire Solo Strings hits another sweet spot, which I think of as "as much expressiveness as possible with damaging the sonority" (aka the spitfire policy of "No samples were harmed in the programming of this library"). I personally love the expressivity that this yields. And you have enough control to create ensembles with that chamber intimacy of "the players watching each other elbows" which you'll never get with the Joshua Bell or Bohemian. Also, the real spatiality that you get from the wet recording in AIR let them sit together distinguishably embodied in a real space also gives an intimacy that you'll never simulate on a dry library.

This the refusal to sacrifice sonority comes at a cost to expressiveness. Attempt to mock up a Beethoven quartet with SsS at your own peril. Sacconi, which I don't have, is probably better for more classical quarters.

Many of the same comments for the OT first chairs, which I've only just started playing with. The dynamics, and especially the (almost non-existent) vibrato control aren't remotely as good as SsS. But it has it's own sweet spots, and they're also amazing good, completely unique. In particular the ability to craft arcs using long and short portatos, some lovely & pristinely classical harshness on attacks, and the soft dynamics of the cello is to die for. The wet, in situ recording is another big plus in my book (similar to CSSS and SsS). Absence of vibrato control is a major limitation for quartet writing, and attempting to mock up a Beethoven quartet is (I predict) going to leave you wanting to slam your head in a door as much as with Spitfire Solo Strings. But there are sweet spots for quartet writing here also, I feel, even if I'm not completely sure what they are yet.

Anyway, if the frustration of the delay in CSSS is a deal breaker for working with sampled solo strings ... I don't think your going to enjoy working with any sampled solo strings, ever. Seriously, might as well just go ahead and jump straight to slamming your head in a door without all the expense and inconvenience of messing around with sample libraries that will inevitably drive you to this eventually anyway.

I'd also seriously look into hiring real musicians (seriously - ping someone like Nicolaj , I think he still does this sort of recording @thesteelydane )


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## jbuhler (Apr 12, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> OK that is good to know. I have Neo strings which have an excellent range of extended techniques already but not all the instruments work as I'd wish for my kind of legato lines, so with xsample I might end up duplicating stuff...


Do take a look at the articulation list for the xsample instruments. It is very extensive. But if you are looking for legato instruments, I don’t think this the library. The learning curve is steep though, so it’s more than possible that my inability to get the library to sing is user error.


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## SupremeFist (Apr 12, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Do take a look at the articulation list for the xsample instruments. It is very extensive. But if you are looking for legato instruments, I don’t think this the library. The learning curve is steep though, so it’s more than possible that my inability to get the library to sing is user error.


It shouldn't be that hard, should it? But yeah all I really want is singing legato lines with convincing control over dynamics within notes. *bangs head against keyboard*


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## doctoremmet (Apr 12, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> It shouldn't be that hard, should it? But yeah all I really want is singing legato lines with convincing control over dynamics within notes. *bangs head against keyboard*


Spitfire or Virharmonic would be my safest bet for that... but don’t mind me. Instead read everything @ism has to say on the matter...

Edit: I do agree Xsample may not be my first choice but it isn’t completely non-lyrical either. Chris Hein isn’t half bad for that type of stuff either though.


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## jbuhler (Apr 12, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> It shouldn't be that hard, should it? But yeah all I really want is singing legato lines with convincing control over dynamics. *bangs head against keyboard*


I want convincing control over vibrato for solo strings as well, for reasons @ism mentions. The difficulty with both dynamics and vibrato are those crossfades for solo instruments, since it is so easy to hear the crossfades as the entrance of a second instrument. Some sort of modeling will almost certainly be needed to pull it off. But I dislike the tone of modeled instruments and of phase aligned sampled instruments that are currently available. So the tradeoffs are always significant.


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## ism (Apr 12, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> It shouldn't be that hard, should it?


Glass half full version - solo strings are *immensely* complex phenomenon from the underlying physics to the luthier-ing to the decades it takes to learn the technique, to the fact that not even everyone who can learn the technique can master the delicacy of artistic expression that goes into ever gesture and idiom of playing even a single note, to the centuries of genius accumulated in the repertoire and the collective knowledge of idiom.

So it's like the dog playing chess. If you think about it, the mind benignly amazing thing isn't that sampling solo strings sometimes makes you want to slam your head in a door, it's that sometime they don't.


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## SupremeFist (Apr 12, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Spitfire or Virharmonic would be my safest bet for that... but don’t mind me. Instead read everything @ism has to say on the matter...


Trust me, I have/do!


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## jbuhler (Apr 12, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Spitfire or Virharmonic would be my safest bet for that... but don’t mind me. Instead read everything @ism has to say on the matter...
> 
> Edit: I do agree Xsample may not be my first choice but it isn’t completely non-lyrical either. Chris Hein isn’t half bad for that type of stuff either though.


Yes, I agree, and it is lyrical enough for writing. But I remember a couple of instances of working insanely hard to get the first violin to sing a passage, finally trying the SF first desk violin and immediately improving the whole thing by a wide margin and with little effort.


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## SupremeFist (Apr 12, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> But I dislike the tone of modeled instruments and of phase aligned sampled instruments that are currently available. So the tradeoffs are always significant.


Yeah modelling isn't there yet. But in terms of the phase-aligned ones the tone of Chris Hein to me sounds significantly better than the tone of eg Cremona...


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## RogiervG (Apr 12, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Audio Modeling SWAM Strings or Sample Modeling Solos & Ensembles.


Second that  endless options, all playing techniques present and completely configurable (and dry too).


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## dzilizzi (Apr 12, 2021)

See, this is where I think if you could make the different strings libraries sound similar enough, you could switch between libraries to get what you need, phrase by phrase. I am making a template and I really wonder if this is possible. Maybe some EQ matching? I know there are professionals that know how to make different libraries sound like they are in the same space. But I think this might be a step farther than this is possible? 


And in a mix? It might not matter if there is a mix of libraries. Just a thought. I am unfortunately, not good enough yet (and don't have the time) to figure this out.


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## Robert_G (Apr 12, 2021)

ism said:


> Emotional Violin/Cello/Viola are somewhere in the middle (though also very, very dry). *You don't get great control over dynamics or vibrato, but you have a *lot* of idiomatic performances available. Crafting lines with EV and all the key switches is fun, and an education in idiomatic violin performance in itself.* "Idiomatic lego" is how I think of it. But I think that all the crossfading and whatever else it requires comes at a cost to the sonority. Or at least in requiring it to be recorded bone dry. Which is ok for a virtuosic soloist, but I'm not sure how it would translate to an quartet.


This is why I find them to be overall the most useful solo strings libraries out there.
There is an articulation for everything you could possibly need and it's all recorded as it is supposed to be. All the life in these instruments you hear is real because it was recorded to be that way....and yet you can still make arrangements that sound like your own out of them.

As for those who think they sound synthy, I'm not sure how recordings of real string instruments sound synthy. That's a good trick if you can do it.

ism, where do you find issues in crossfading? I find crossfading to be gentle in these libraries and pretty straightforward. I don't hear obvious phasing issues or 'jumps' in the timber at all. Then again, I find that it sounds better to shut off the default verb and add my own.


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## wwwm (Apr 12, 2021)

XSample AIL is my go-to, and I've heard the new Contemporary Solo Strings is even better.


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## thesteelydane (Apr 12, 2021)

ism said:


> I'd also seriously look into hiring real musicians (seriously - ping someone like Nicolaj , I think he still does this sort of recording @thesteelydane )


Thanks for the mention, but I have closed my string recordings business. I'm not actually playing much these days, focused on building a career as a composer, and if I do open it back up it will only be for viola recordings.


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## musicalweather (Apr 12, 2021)

Wow, this has blown up into quite the thread. Haven't read it all, but I'll just say +1 for the Emotional series. It works very well, especially if you have articulation management. Here's a string quartet excerpt I mocked up using Emotional Violin, JB Violin, Fischer Viola and Emotional Cello. Don't have the Emotional Viola yet but intend to get it.


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## ism (Apr 12, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> This is why I find them to be overall the most useful solo strings libraries out there.
> There is an articulation for everything you could possibly need and it's all recorded as it is supposed to be.


It sounds like in the Emotion series you've found your spiritual solo string home  Which is cool, I look forward to hearing more of your compositions with it.

But if they have an articulation for everything that you'd ever want, they really don't have every articulation for everything *I'd* ever want. I mean, it's awesome the expressive space the that "idiomatic lego" opens up, and there's no other sampled library that overlaps this expressive space. But it's still a pretty tiny expressive space in the grand scheme of things.

And as ever, in achieving the expressiveness in the dimensions it does, you loose expressiveness in others. Most of the articulations are recorded at a single dynamic layer, for instance. Which is a deal breaker for various types of musicality.



Robert_G said:


> As for those who think they sound synthy, I'm not sure how recordings of real string instruments sound synthy. That's a good trick if you can do it.


I'm not sure anyone's ever said it sounds synthy, exactly. But it's recorded so utterly bone dry, that it can sound very ... flat. 

There's no sense of spatiality, no intimacy of feeling your in the same space of the performer. And you just don't have this spatial information captured in the samples in the way you have in the SF or OT tree mics. 

In that the human mind is capable of extraordinarily interpretation of spatialization information encoded in stereo sound streams, imo, there's simply no way to simulate it with reverb. This is particular acute in the case of a quartet, the interacting of spatiality in of the different instruments can really add to this intimate of spatial embodiment. 

For something as dry as the EV, you have to add your own early reflections, and panning. And this can sound very, very nice - but is very stylized. This an totally work - wspecially if you have a soloist that needs to stand out rather than integrate into an ensemble, in which case sometimes I don't mind the dryness. 

But it can also be very flat - maybe even synthy, at least in some sense - compared to a wet recording in a real space. 

But also - real strings played un-idiomatically can easily sound synthy. Spitfire Solo Strings, even though I think the capture an sublimely beautiful sonority, unequaled anywhere, I can easily make them sound static synthy, and in general utterly horrible by any number of techniques in un-idiomatic plonking. 




Robert_G said:


> ism, where do you find issues in crossfading? I find crossfading to be gentle in these libraries and pretty straightforward. I don't hear obvious phasing issues or 'jumps' in the timber at all. Then again, I find that it sounds better to shut off the default verb and add my own.




Well, part of the nature of the "idiomatic lego" in the EV design is that there's lots and lots of crossfading (very possibly this is why it had to recorded dry). And it's not always going to work, nor should you expect every possible keyswitch from one particular articultion to another to work at every point in every kind of idiomatic phrase. The is a library to be embraced for its performability, and not plonkability. And it's a fun library to craft idiomatic performances on, and a horribly library to plonk away at expecting idiomatic performance to fall into your lap. (Performability + performance = happens ; Performability + plonking = misery)

That said, in general, I think the crossfade is really well done. 

My issue in the crossfade patches is more that a) most of the articulations are recorded at a single dynamic layer anyway, and b) I just don't really love the cross fade patches. Not because they phasey. I just don't think they're a particular focus of the library. And they don't compare remotely to the kind of dynamics that SsS, for instance, is capable of.

But this really isn't a criticism of the library, just a consequence of the design choices that deliver one set of (amazing) sweet spots, at the expense of others.


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## Baronvonheadless (Apr 12, 2021)

A little example no-one asked for haha! But here is the Joshua Bell Violin mixed with the Chris Hein Cello. This is an absolute improvisation, not written, and just performed live with no editing so it may be a little sloppy...but I was feeling wild. Just experimenting with the Pizz, and short sustain with Chris Hein and the JB keyswitches to show off how they compliment each other, support and blend with each other, and each have their own 'BITE'.

Now as first chair, kinda chordal stuff, this isn't the best example, but I think for a quartet vibe these two really really sound good together and you can make some very nice old school sounding stuff...

I'm still new in the library game/composition but I really favor these two sounds. 

Cheers


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## RM 13 (Apr 12, 2021)

CSSS all the way. The tone is unmatched. The only thing that needs a bit tweaking is the legato speed but other than that, CSSS is the best there is right now. *Optional* If you can throw JB Violin on top of that it's pure magic.


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## Polkasound (Apr 12, 2021)

ImJim said:


> Please show a bit of compassion for the life of a fellow VI user.


Please heed the advice of members like reutunes who have been here 8+ years longer than you.

Yes, it's a clever title, but how is anyone supposed to know what your thread is about without opening it? Is your goal to entice _everyone_ to open your thread whether or not they may be interested in string libraries?

If you're benefiting from the help you're receiving here on VI-Control, please consider returning the favor by changing the thread title to something a bit more revealing, like:
Help me choose from among these solo string libraries, or I will die​Thank you.


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## Michael Antrum (Apr 12, 2021)

If you like the tone, and I do, then the VSL Synchronized Solo Strings offers a high level of control and there is a 14 day refund policy if you don't like them if you buy direct from VSL.

You can also get them back to dry samples if you wish to add your own reverb.

In the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, they can be very good indeed......


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## Baronvonheadless (Apr 12, 2021)

Or you could change the title to “Help me choose how I will die” so we can get weird!


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## ImJim (Apr 12, 2021)

jsnleo said:


> I almost pulled the trigger on Spitfire but then I watched this one.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe I've seen some posts about not liking the sound. I always thought it sounded good but I think Berlin FC just sounded better in this video.



Saw the exact same video the other day. Berlin sounded so organic and "warm" compared to others, even CSSS. That bottom end was amazing to listen to. Unique.


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## ism (Apr 12, 2021)

jsnleo said:


> I almost pulled the trigger on Spitfire but then I watched this one.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe I've seen some posts about not liking the sound. I always thought it sounded good but I think Berlin FC just sounded better in this video.



Note that the “spitfire solo string” in this are the 10 year old, long since end of lifed “spitfire solo strings” and have nothing to do with the current “spitfire solo strings”


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## ImJim (Apr 12, 2021)

ism said:


> The thing here is the frustrating inbuilt delay is actually how real string instruments work. This is also CSSS' single deviation from laser focus on optimization for plonkability. The upside is that it makes you think, at least a little bit, about crafting strings lines idiomatically. Rather than pandering entirely to piano players.
> 
> Which is perhaps the hardest, most frustrating - and most interesting and exciting thing about learning to write for solo strings with samples.
> 
> ...


One of the best replies I've had to read. Thanks a lot! Of course inbuilt delay is a sinequanone condition for strings, I never said or thought otherwise. CSS / CSSS uses this delay the most, and it's no surprise they still have the best legato even after all those years.

I'm simply trying to find a good balance between solid programming and confort (playability), which is obviously a very hard task. Berlin gives me this confort even though it's not the absolute best library for legato (I still love their portamentos, way more expressive than CSS). It still offers me that agility and expressiveness for soaring lines, and the tone is sooo nice out of the box.

Since you have OT Berlin FC, do you confirm there's a dedicated vibrato control? Is it a on & off switch type of control or a crossfade?

How would you rate Spitfire legato V.S Berlin FC? The comparison video mentioned above didn't really convince me of the "spatiality" of Spitfire. While Berlin really kicked ass.

Thanks again


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## BradHoyt (Apr 12, 2021)

If you don't like the vibrato control in CSSS, here's what I think you should get:

Spitfire Solo Strings (the current one, not to be confused with the ancient 10 year old version that's no longer sold) - An all around great solo string library - and with the impressive vibrato control you might be looking for. (They have a vibrato slider that transitions really well)

PLUS:

Embertone JB Violin + VirHarmonic's Bohemian Cello (and consider purchasing the violin and upcoming viola) - I recommend these in addition to the main string library because you will not find expressive solo strings like these in an all encompassing solo string library.

...and that's it.

PLUS: (lol)

Get Ben Osterhouse's stuff along with Westwood's Untamed series later. Their stuff does things and sounds like no other libraries out there, and they're reasonably priced.

Hope this helps.


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## ImJim (Apr 12, 2021)

ism said:


> Note that the “spitfire solo string” in this are the 10 year old, long since end of lifed “spitfire solo strings” and have nothing to do with the current “spitfire solo strings”


OMG. That explains it then. The sound seemed so thin and baldy separated. Now I'm even more torn between Berlin FC and Spitfire.


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## jbuhler (Apr 12, 2021)

ImJim said:


> Since you have OT Berlin FS, do you confirm there's a dedicated vibrato control? Is it a on & off switch type of control or a crossfade?
> 
> How would you rate Spitfire legato V.S Berlin FS? The comparison video mentioned above didn't really convince me of the "spatiality" of Spitfire. While Berlin really kicked ass.
> 
> Thanks again


I haven’t been able to find the vibrato control yet on Berlin FCs. It’s not visible in the usual place these kinds of options usually are in Sine. But I’m still learning the instruments and I haven’t checked the manual. I’m just going from my knowledge of other Sine libraries. 

I prefer the first desk SF violin to both of these violins—the SF first desk especially sweet in its top octave—but the Berlin FCs sound very good, and I can easily imagine someone else preferring them to the SF.


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## ism (Apr 12, 2021)

ImJim said:


> One of the best replies I've had to read. Thanks a lot! Of course inbuilt delay is a sinequanone condition for strings, I never said or thought otherwise. CSS / CSSS uses this delay the most, and it's no surprise they still have the best legato even after all those years.
> 
> I'm simply trying to find a good balance between solid programming and confort (playability), which is obviously a very hard task. Berlin gives me this confort even though it's not the absolute best library for legato (I still love their portamentos, way more expressive than CSS). It still offers me that agility and expressiveness for soaring lines, and the tone is sooo nice out of the box.
> 
> ...



So I love solo strings libraries, and I love both Spitfire and Berlin, and I love string quartets ... but neither of these libraries are really designed for for quartet writing. There’s great quartet-like musicality to be found in each if you’re extremely carefull about colouring within the lines of the sweet spots, but it’s very limited. 

I don’t think berlin has any control over vibrato all, except that you have 4 different arcs (2 long & 2 short) to choose from performed differently, so there’s a little bit of variation to be had. (Note that I don't think the above comparison uses the arcs or much of anything else in crafting phrasing. The (current) spitfire solo strings has vibrato control, but it’s on/off (unless you craft the phrase in dynamics also). This can be great, and is essential for the string quartet “watching each others elbows” effect. But it’s never going to match the smoothness of a slow langorous progressive vibratos. 

My go to example for how to craft the arcs is this noodle:



Haven’t played with Berlin enough yet to offer a noodle that crafts phraseings in it yet.

In any event, in the way comparison videos like the above typically tend to approach comparisons, they’re unlikely to attempt to craft the phrasing and make use of the performability of SF or Berlin. So libraries like CSSS tends to win by merit of mere plonkabiliy and baked in progressive vibrato. Such is the youtube economy we live in. 


I don’t know which is better Berlin or SF for quartets. Both are winners in tone, both have some fabulous performability, both will make you want to slam you head in a door if you idea of strings quartets is like, you know, Beethoven. Neither are remotely up to mocking up Beethoven. And “which is best?’ is a bit of a “how long is a piece of string?” question in the first place.




ImJim said:


> OMG. That explains it then. The sound seemed so thin and baldy separated. Now I'm even more torn between Berlin FC and Spitfire.


It’s actually one of the earliest SF libraries. The hadn’t even figured out how to get multiple mics to work with legato at the time. 

Still, it has Caroline Dale on cello. And so with the extremely narrow sweet spot of Caroline Dale playing mf only, molto vibrato only, tree mic only, there’s a gorgeous sweet spot that I’m still quite glad to have.


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## ism (Apr 12, 2021)

ImJim said:


> I'm simply trying to find a good balance between solid programming and confort (playability)



Yeah, well “balance” is often a noble goal. And then there are time when it risks amounting to falling between stools and dying a horrible death. 

As there have been mental health implications implicit in this this thread fr0m the start (like a lot of solo strings threads actually), maybe worth sharing this again:


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## ImJim (Apr 12, 2021)

ism said:


> So I love solo strings libraries, and I love both Spitfire and Berlin, and I love string quartets ... but neither of these libraries are really designed for for quartet writing. There’s great quartet-like musicality to be found in each if you’re extremely carefull about colouring within the lines of the sweet spots, but it’s very limited.
> 
> I don’t think berlin has any control over vibrato all, except that you have 4 different arcs (2 long & 2 short) to choose from performed differently, so there’s a little bit of variation to be had. (Note that I don't think the above comparison uses the arcs or much of anything else in crafting phrasing. The (current) spitfire solo strings has vibrato control, but it’s on/off (unless you craft the phrase in dynamics also). This can be great, and is essential for the string quartet “watching each others elbows” effect. But it’s never going to match the smoothness of a slow langorous progressive vibratos.
> 
> ...



Thanks again man! Apart from the vibrato question mark, the fact that Berlin FC only has one type of "slurred" legato (besides portamento) makes me wonder if this lib can handle fast passages as well as Spifire. Could it also make the performance sound a bit sterile and repetitive, compared to an instrument that could alternate between bowed, fingered, etc...?

To be honest, I don't think I'm really going for a "true" quartet sound in the long run. I mostly write huge orchestral stuff, and would rather need a First Chairs type of setup & sound for future work.


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## ism (Apr 12, 2021)

ImJim said:


> Thanks again man! Apart from the vibrato question mark, the fact that Berlin FC only has one type of "slurred" legato (besides portamento) makes me wonder if this lib can handle fast passages as well as Spifire. Could it also make the performance sound a bit sterile and repetitive, compared to an instrument that could alternate between bowed, fingered, etc...?
> 
> To be honest, I don't think I'm really going for a "true" quartet sound in the long run. I mostly write huge orchestral stuff, and would rather need a First Chairs type of setup & sound for future work.


These are good questions ... haven’t played with Berlin enough yet to say, though my impression in that it’s pretty good at fast lines.

Joshua bell of course is extraordinary at fast lines, probably the most pristine fiery fast legato there is. But the SF virtuosic violin (and the cello) also has cool ‘arpegio legato’:


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## jsnleo (Apr 12, 2021)

ism said:


> Note that the “spitfire solo string” in this are the 10 year old, long since end of lifed “spitfire solo strings” and have nothing to do with the current “spitfire solo strings”


Oh thanks. Are they completely new recordings or a mixture of both?


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## ism (Apr 12, 2021)

jsnleo said:


> Oh thanks. Are they completely new recordings or a mixture of both?


Completely new. It’s a step of several generations of technology from the previous library.


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## jsnleo (Apr 12, 2021)

ism said:


> Completely new. It’s a step of several generations of technology from the previous library.


Thank you. I wondered why it sounded so different to the walkthrough video, that explains it. What’s your go-to for string quartet btw, or favorite ones?


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## SupremeFist (Apr 15, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I think Xsample Solo Strings struggle with lyricism, and the virtues of these libraries lies in the short notes and large number of extended techniques. As far as I’m aware the legato is programmed. It’s remarkably good and allows you to dial in portamento at pretty much any rate you want, but i think anyone concerned with the difference between bow change and fingered legato will be disappointed. xsample instruments also have fairly steep learning curves.


The xsample modular violin here (I think it's the same as in their previous solo strings package) sounds pretty good to me. Would you say it's better at lines like this demo than the one in contemporary? 





__





xsample_violin







xsample.de


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## doctoremmet (Apr 15, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> The xsample modular violin here (I think it's the same as in their previous solo strings package) sounds pretty good to me. Would you say it's better at lines like this demo than the one in contemporary?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have both and I would say they are both pretty well equipped to do lines like yours


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## jbuhler (Apr 15, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> The xsample modular violin here (I think it's the same as in their previous solo strings package) sounds pretty good to me. Would you say it's better at lines like this demo than the one in contemporary?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd say it's similar, but it's hard to say from the audio file itself, because of the shaping that's going on. But the tone lacks sweetness to my ear, and it's even more pronounced when it's placed in the context of an accompaniment.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 15, 2021)

Indeed, sweet is not the first adjective that springs to mind when I were to qualify their tone


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## SupremeFist (Apr 15, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I'd say it's similar, but it's hard to say from the audio file itself, because of the shaping that's going on. But the tone lacks sweetness to my ear, and it's even more pronounced when it's placed in the context of an accompaniment.


OK, thanks for listening!


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## SupremeFist (Apr 15, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Indeed, sweet is not the first adjective that springs to mind when I were to qualify their tone


Yeah, but I kind of like lyrical and harsh?


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## SupremeFist (Apr 15, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I have both and I would say they are both pretty well equipped to do lines like yours


OK thanks Doc! (Where is that sale already?)


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## doctoremmet (Apr 15, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Yeah, but I kind of like lyrical and harsh?


They do harsh well - in a good “intended” way. But they also work as “normal” solo strings and small ensembles with a slightly edgy and modern chamber sound.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 15, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> OK thanks Doc! (Where is that sale already?)


I have it on good authority there is going to be a mid april one... so I get your question


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## SupremeFist (Apr 15, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I have it on good authority there is going to be a mid april one... so I get your question


It literally is mid-April today!!!


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## ImJim (Apr 15, 2021)

Hey guys, quick update. Finally went for Spitfire Solo Strings. Found CSSS sonically dull and boring (like CSS), and Berlin FC not romantic enough, and lacking basic controls & articulations.

Spitfire has a fuller and more "wooden" sound, thus warmer and almost more vintage, which is what I'm looking for. The virtuoso violin sounds great so far, too bad there's no solo bass but the Cello sounds magical. 

Didn't even go though all articulations, but this library looks promising!


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## Fa (Apr 15, 2021)

ImJim said:


> I'm going crazy. Hours and hours of comparisons.
> 
> All these libs have great sweet spots, but to me none of them seem to stand out from the other. I just want a romantic & versatile solo string quartet.
> 
> ...


For solo strings in my very humble opinion nothing is more flexible and realistic of *Samplemodeling Solo Strings. * 

Some sample libraries may have some nice shorts or some good sustain, but as soon as you start building a phrase, the magics are lost and just frustration and disappointment start... you are forced to write for the samples, instead of using the samples for your ideas, and still final result will be questionable.

*Samplemodeling* are the only instruments providing you with almost the same features and playability of the phisical-modeling products, but keeping the real sound of real Strings solo samples, because they are sample libraries VI and not synth.


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## ism (Apr 15, 2021)

ImJim said:


> Hey guys, quick update. Finally went for Spitfire Solo Strings. Found CSSS sonically dull and boring (like CSS), and Berlin FC not romantic enough, and lacking basic controls & articulations.
> 
> Spitfire has a fuller and more "wooden" sound, thus warmer and almost more vintage, which is what I'm looking for. The virtuoso violin sounds great so far, too bad there's no solo bass but the Cello sounds magical.
> 
> Didn't even go though all articulations, but this library looks promising!



Don’t remember if I’ve posted a link to this thread ... key thing about SsS is to get your head around the vibrato. Have fun! 






Spitfire Solo Strings: How I learned to stop worrying and love vibrato


So the short version here, is that after a lot of experimenting, and via a "performance vibrato" script that I've developed, I think I've finally managed to get my head around the vibrato in Spitfire solo strings. And found a way to make it much more playable 'out-of-the-box'. Here's my first...




vi-control.net


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## Fa (Apr 15, 2021)

ImJim said:


> Hey guys, quick update. Finally went for Spitfire Solo Strings. Found CSSS sonically dull and boring (like CSS), and Berlin FC not romantic enough, and lacking basic controls & articulations.
> 
> Spitfire has a fuller and more "wooden" sound, thus warmer and almost more vintage, which is what I'm looking for. The virtuoso violin sounds great so far, too bad there's no solo bass but the Cello sounds magical.
> 
> Didn't even go though all articulations, but this library looks promising!


Very nice sound (one of my favorite), very low playability and flexibility on the other side.

I hope you didn't spend too much... and keep money for better in case you will realize that you need something more...


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## SupremeFist (Apr 15, 2021)

ism said:


> Don’t remember if I’ve posted a link to this thread ... key thing about SsS is to get your head around the vibrato. Have fun!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those sound really really nice, but way too ambient for what I want to use them for. Do you know if there's a demo/walkthrough somewhere that shows only the close mics with no added verb?


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## ImJim (Apr 15, 2021)

Thanks


Fa said:


> For solo strings in my very humble opinion nothing is more flexible and realistic of *Samplemodeling Solo Strings. *
> 
> Some sample libraries may have some nice shorts or some good sustain, but as soon as you start building a phrase, the magics are lost and just frustration and disappointment start... you are forced to write for the samples, instead of using the samples for your ideas, and still final result will be questionable.
> 
> *Samplemodeling* are the only instruments providing you with almost the same features and playability of the phisical-modeling products, but keeping the real sound of real Strings solo samples, because they are sample libraries VI and not synth.


Hey Fa, thanks for chiming in. In fact I'm a fan of your work with SM and even posted a whole thread ranting about the fact you weren't receiving enough recognition from users. It was also a true declaration of love for SM Solo & Ensemble Strings. I'll surely buy this lib as soon as I can afford it, and its incredible agility and versatility are not matched by any other lib I'm aware of.


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## jbuhler (Apr 15, 2021)

Fa said:


> Very nice sound, very low playability and flexibility on the other side.
> 
> I hope you didn't spend too much... and keep money for better in case you will realize that you need something more...


I find SF Solo Strings very flexible and very programmable, but they are not very playable out of the box, even the total performance patch, and they are not at all plonkable. @ism has a Logic script that makes them much more playable. The vibrato, though on or off, is more controllable then initially seems to be the case, because you can turn it on and off to model progressive vibrato and in the context it works much better than it should. 

Yes, it's in the nature of solo string libraries to need something more. I think I now have something like a dozen solo violins and I use them all.


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## SupremeFist (Apr 15, 2021)

Fa said:


> For solo strings in my very humble opinion nothing is more flexible and realistic of *Samplemodeling Solo Strings. *
> 
> Some sample libraries may have some nice shorts or some good sustain, but as soon as you start building a phrase, the magics are lost and just frustration and disappointment start... you are forced to write for the samples, instead of using the samples for your ideas, and still final result will be questionable.
> 
> *Samplemodeling* are the only instruments providing you with almost the same features and playability of the phisical-modeling products, but keeping the real sound of real Strings solo samples, because they are sample libraries VI and not synth.


As with pianos, I'm sure modelling is the future, but we are not there yet with the sound. (I think the strings are further behind than the pianos.) But of course it depends on one's priorities.


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## Marsen (Apr 15, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Those sound really really nice, but way too ambient for what I want to use them for. Do you know if there's a demo/walkthrough somewhere that shows only the close mics with no added verb?


Close mics on their own, doesn't sound good.


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## Fa (Apr 15, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> As with pianos, I'm sure modelling is the future, but we are not there yet with the sound. (I think the strings are further behind than the pianos.) But of course it depends on one's priorities.


Frequent misunderstanding: you are referring to Audiomodeling not to Samplemodeling.

They are different companies with totally different technologies, and different products with radically different sound.

What you say is perfectly in line with the physical-modeling of companies like Pianoteq or Audiomodeling.

Samplemodeling is instead using AI scripting for managing in real time sample library articulation, and a proprietary tecnology to enable perfect merge and perfect cross-fading of samples and articulations. Nothing to do with "modeling" as synthesis technic.


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## SupremeFist (Apr 15, 2021)

Fa said:


> Frequent misunderstanding: you are referring to Audiomodeling not to Samplemodeling.
> 
> They are different companies with totally different technologies, and different products with radically different sound.
> 
> ...


Sure, I don't think Samplemodeling sounds right either. 💁‍♀️


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## ism (Apr 15, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Those sound really really nice, but way too ambient for what I want to use them for. Do you know if there's a demo/walkthrough somewhere that shows only the close mics with no added verb?


I don’t. But this is a wet library. close mics are there to add detail to the tree, and sound kind of uncanny and wrong on their own.

Note, however, in all of my noodles, I’m additionally adding lots of long tail Valhalla Room cathedral reverb. To me, it’s the best of all worlds - the detail of the close, the spatiality of the tree, and the size of the Cathedral (with the early reflections turned off so as not to muddy the spatiality of the tree or blur the detail of the close).

I would’t call this an ‘ambient’ mix, myself, incidentally. To me it’s got lots of clarity of detail and spatial embodiment. Ambient, in my use of the word, would be what you’d get if you removed the close mic details, cranked up the tree (it’s as low as you can go to keep the spatialization without being muddy), or kept the early reflections in the external reverb.

Anyway, my point is : a mix built around the close mic to simulate dryness is probably going to sound terrible. I would never go below ~45% tree, otherwise you'd be better with Chris Hein or some such.


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## SupremeFist (Apr 15, 2021)

ism said:


> I don’t. But this is a wet library. close mics are there to add detail to the tree, and sound kind of uncanny and wrong on their own.
> 
> Note, however, in all of my noodles, I’m additionally adding lots of long tail Valhalla Room cathedral reverb. To me, it’s the best of all worlds - the detail of the close, the spatiality of the tree, and the size of the Cathedral (with the early reflections turned off so as not to muddy the spatiality of the tree or blur the detail of the close).
> 
> ...


Haha yes OK it's not "ambient" in that sense. Thanks for the explanation!


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## Fa (Apr 15, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I find SF Solo Strings very flexible and very programmable, but they are not very playable out of the box, even the total performance patch, and they are not at all plonkable. @ism has a Logic script that makes them much more playable. The vibrato, though on or off, is more controllable then initially seems to be the case, because you can turn it on and off to model progressive vibrato and in the context it works much better than it should.
> 
> Yes, it's in the nature of solo string libraries to need something more. I think I now have something like a dozen solo violins and I use them all.


I somehow agree, and then I want to be more specific:
- sound is simply lovable, was 1 of the best in class for long time and still is. Articulation set is nice and easy to manage.

But...

- Pitch bend inhibited, vibrato in and out, pretty wet recording even in close mic... this is what I call "low flexibility" to ambience, phrasing and style.


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## SupremeFist (Apr 15, 2021)

If Spitfire is currently sitting on an upcoming "Ólafur Arnalds Solo Strings" recorded in Abbey Road 2 and just reading this thread and laughing, I wish they would give us a sign.


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## Fa (Apr 15, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Sure, I don't think Samplemodeling sounds right either. 💁‍♀️


Just curious to know if you own it or you based your opinion on demos.

(I ask because I discussed the topic with the producers, being often demos focusing on the exclusive and hyper-realistic phrasing the VI can do, instead of the sound, and probably this is definitely misleading. The amount of supporters is dramatically increasing in the user base instead, because once you start playing it, you love it and you discover that you can make your own sound, whatever it is).


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## jbuhler (Apr 15, 2021)

Fa said:


> I somehow agree, and then I want to be more specific:
> - sound is simply lovable, was 1 of the best in class for long time and still is. Articulation set is nice and easy to manage.
> 
> But...
> ...


Pitch bend has to be inhibited in a wet library unless you want to bend the room. Which can be an interesting effect and as such I wish it was easier to do. But it's not realistic. Yes, you are dealing with a wet library and that has consequences. But dry libraries have their own inflexibilities, and I can't ever get them to sound the way I like. That's likely partially user error, but it's also partially in the nature of the kind of information that dry signals lack.

In terms of phrasing I find the SF instruments very flexible, more so then those with high plonkability. And as for vibrato, there are only compromises, no good solutions, when it comes to solo strings...


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## SupremeFist (Apr 15, 2021)

Fa said:


> Just curious to know if you own it or you based your opinion on demos.
> 
> (I ask because I discussed the topic with the producers, being often demos focusing on the exclusive and hyper-realistic phrasing the VI can do, instead of the sound, and probably this is definitely misleading. The amount of supporters and is dramatically increasing in the user base instead, because once you start playing it, you love it and you discover that you can make your own sound, whatever it is).


Just demos.


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## Fa (Apr 15, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Just demos.


Got it thank you. 
This is something to improve, they know, and I hope the upcoming update will be the perfect occasion to fix it.


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## SupremeFist (Apr 15, 2021)

Fa said:


> Got it thank you.
> This is something to improve, they know, and I hope the upcoming update will be the perfect occasion to fix it.


I look forward to listening!


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## ism (Apr 15, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Haha yes OK it's not "ambient" in that sense. Thanks for the explanation!


Yes, forgive the pedantry


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## Marsen (Apr 15, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Haha yes OK it's not "ambient" in that sense. Thanks for the explanation!


As ism said, it's a wet library and the close mics are more for definition in combi with the tree.
But it's a great library. I would surely buy it again.

I also have 8Dio Adagio 2.0, and the close mics in some short articulations sounding gorgeous You could use them for Intimate String Sound, but!
Not all articulations are that good. It's a hit and miss.


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## Fa (Apr 15, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Pitch bend has to be inhibited in a wet library unless you want to bend the room. Which can be an interesting effect and as such I wish it was easier to do. But it's not realistic. Yes, you are dealing with a wet library and that has consequences. But dry libraries have their own inflexibilities, and I can't ever get them to sound the way I like. That's likely partially user error, but it's also partially in the nature of the kind of information that dry signals lack.
> 
> In terms of phrasing I find the SF instruments very flexible, more so then those with high plonkability. And as for vibrato, there are only compromises, no good solutions, when it comes to solo strings...


Obviously you can't bend the room, as you can't modulate a recorded vibrato.
Definitely a matter of opinions and personal preference, but one point is pretty objective: 
you perfectly described 2 limitations (pitch bend and vibrato out of control) that should suggest you are missing 2 of the most important components of a solo strings phrase. If you don't think so, well no problem, we just have different parameters in prioritisation of the musical elements.

I didn't say the SF solos are bad. They just share common limitations of traditional libraries... believe me, once you played one of the new VI, you will never step back to traditional solo libs again. Technology is fast evolving, and sooner or later all the producers will move to the new virtual-instrument concept.


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## ism (Apr 15, 2021)

Fa said:


> Obviously you can't bend the room, as you can't modulate a recorded vibrato.



Note quite true - SsS lets you:

- via time machine, modulate the speed of the recorded vibrato. This is of course limited, but very convincing for intensifying the vibrato at the end of a phrase.

- approximate a progressive vibrato first by crossfading from non-vib to vib as you craft your phrase, but also in a (crossfading) crescendo arc, but also, you effectively modulate the vibrato when you crossfade between the layers - hight dynamics have more intense vibrato.

- starting you phrase with the recorded progressive vibrato articulation. Like CSSS, or OT FC. you obviously can’t control the timing of the progressive vibrato in the arc, but when you throw it in occasionally , and combine it with the above (rather than repeat exactly the same phrasing in every single not), it can really contribute to the overall expressiveness.

Obviously, this isn’t going to compare to simulated vibrato - even the Embertone simulated vibrato lets you control vibrato smoothly in 4 dimension. But for a certain type of musicality - if you’re able to carefully colour in between the lines of the sweet spots, vis crafting your arcs by modulating in some sense the recoded vibrato in your performance in vib/non-vib, dynamics, time machine & the progressive articulation - it sounds great. Very “emotionally realistic”

There’s of course a lot that it can’t do. But this is the price of preserving the sonority of the samples. And not just the sonority, the spatiality, in that modeling techniques typically require dry recording.


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## Fa (Apr 16, 2021)

ism said:


> Note quite true - SsS lets you:
> 
> - via time machine, modulate the speed of the recorded vibrato. This is of course limited, but very convincing for intensifying the vibrato at the end of a phrase.
> 
> ...


Yes I know, but still I can't get the point of "technology preference":

- we start discussing that wet recording of real expression is preferred because it's "the real thing" it has "pure samples" it provides "real spatialization" etc.

- Then we admit and get excited by warping the samples with any possible digital trick (time stretch, cross fading, volume manipulation etc.) that obviously totally deprivate the reverb and the samples of the original nature, and we mix the result with other different wet samples, and cover them into additional reverb to make them fuse...

That sounds as a contradiction to me, and the evidence that it's really a matter of personal opinions and preferences (hopefully not instinctive bias).

Final result is the objective measure.
In my opinion whatever works well and sound well is welcome: with a wet and expressive sample you get a perfect sound, but always the same. If you accept to start manipulating it, then Samplemodeling technology is actually a patented and proprietary top technology for real time samples manipulation, protecting the pristine sound, doing something similar to what you listed, and a lot more.

Yes it's dry. Due to the fact I use Altiverb and MIR, I would say thanks God it is.


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## ImJim (Apr 16, 2021)

ism said:


> Note quite true - SsS lets you:
> 
> - via time machine, modulate the speed of the recorded vibrato. This is of course limited, but very convincing for intensifying the vibrato at the end of a phrase.
> 
> ...


Great to know! I still have a ton to explore with this lib, just started using it yesterday. Do you perhaps own Spitfire Symphonic Strings? If yes, do you know if Solo Strings blend well with Symphonic Strings? Are they MIDI-consistent?


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## ism (Apr 16, 2021)

Fa said:


> Yes I know, but still I can't get the point of "technology preference":
> 
> - we start discussing that wet recording of real expression is preferred because it's "the real thing" it has "pure samples" it provides "real spatialization" etc.
> 
> ...



There's more going on here that just "personal preference" or "technology preference"

Starting from the idea that I'd describe the SF approach as "as much expressiveness as possible without damaging the sonority", the point about the array of techniques I describe above that let you add expressiveness in the vibrato - but precisely in a way that works without damaging the sonority.

The time stretching, for instance, is limited to intensifying the vibrato's speed a little bit, and used sparingly, it really does achieves this without any significant damage to the sonority. (Of course, it wouldn't work to modulate the intensity or other dimension of vibrato expressiveness).

Similarly, the (non-phase aligned) crossfades endemically cause a a bit of bumpiness, so again referencing this noodle:





.. if you listen to it with your cognitive hat, you can hear that it's obviously samples. The bumpiness in the crossfade easily gives it away. At least intellectually. And some people report that, aesthetically, this kills it for them.

And sure, you can get mock ups that are more realistic in the cognitive dimension of smoothness of expressinon through phase alignment or other modelling techniques.

But at the same time, the sheer sonority of this noodle demonstrates what I fell is a level of "emotion realism", that trumps the cognitive. I can listen to this "as music" all day.

At least, when I listen to it not as a sound engineer, but "as music", my brain, apparently, is perfectly happy to ignore this bumpiness entirely. And I can really just immerse myself aesthetically in this sonority in a way that (sadly) I just can't with, say VSL or Emotion Cello.


Part of this is the musicality of the composition. If this were a Mozart concerto Spitfire Solo Strings would be *terrible*. The musicality of this kind of composition resides just too fundamentally in the pristine smoothness of the expressiveness. But the musicality I'm actively looking for in the above instead reaches for a beautiful, "fragile materiality" (quoting @jbuhler), and I can really *feel* like I'm really experiencing a really fabulous sounding musical performance, sharing the same, embodied, space of the performer.

With other libraries it might be much harder to *cognitively* determine if I'm listening to a real performance vs samples. But there's an emotional quality of the sheer sonority and nuance of the performance that I simply don't find reproducible with modelling techniques.

And ultimately, when I'm writing with samples, "Emotional realism" is all I care about.


So yes, partly this is about personal preference. But I also think that that we can go deeper than that in understanding what's going on here. For one thing, the musicality. If we're listening for one type of musicality and insensitive to another, this is obviously going to colour our understanding of the sweet spots of a library.


But beyond musicality, there's such a huge difference of polarizing opinions on solo strings, that I think it's also quite plausible that there's a genuinely perceptual dimension involved in our differing preferences.

Sampled instruments are always playing a delicate game to maintain some illusion of "reality" (with an understanding that "emotional" and "cognitive" reality need some texture in their distinction). When I listen to VSL solo strings, one minute it's pristine and delicate and gorgeous ... and then next it completely falls off a cliff into synthyness and the whole illusion comes crashing down forever.

But music is always about perceptual delicacy - witness the perceptual dimension to how multiple countrapuntal lines are separated by the perceptual capacities of our minds into multiple streams. But then if the counterpoint is a bit sloppy for a couple of bars, the distinct perceptual streams might similarly catastrophically collapse into a single stream of harmonic mush. But there's going to be a *lot* of contextual factors involved what pushes it over the edge into collapse for one person vs another.

And note that this is a very specifically human perceptual capacity - dolphins for instance, would apparently experience Bach very differently.

So whether by nature or nurture, there's no reasons all of our brains need to experience solo string libraries in the same ways.

(More on this thread:

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/best-solo-cello.82018/post-4386657 )


Anyway, at the end of the day, there's a great richness of musicalities and perceptual stances, that it really just does go to show that you can never have too many solo string libraries.


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## jbuhler (Apr 16, 2021)

ImJim said:


> Great to know! I still have a ton to explore with this lib, just started using it yesterday. Do you perhaps own Spitfire Symphonic Strings? If yes, do you know if Solo Strings blend well with Symphonic Strings? Are they MIDI-consistent?


SF Solo Strings work well as first desk players for both SSS and SCS. (And SSS and SCS work together this way for the most part too.) I use the first desk violinist for violin 1 and the progressive violin for violin 2, though the latter lacks legato. I also use the regular cello legato rather than the total performance version. In general, you can just reuse the same midi, though articulations are not completely consistent between these libraries. Where they are consistent (legato for legato, spiccato for spiccato, staccato for staccato, etc.), the midi tends to translate very well in terms of modwheel and velocity, and they all use the same UACC coding so if you set the keyswitching up that way, the midi will translate reasonably well so long as the libraries have the same articulation.

There are some differences in how the vibrato is handled among the libraries since each has a somewhat different take on vibrato. It's not usually a problem though in the context of section playing. For balance I find I will make some trims with CC11 on the solo instruments to push it forward on top of the section and pull it back into the section.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 16, 2021)

I love the the title of this thread! 🤣


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## Mr Sakitumi (Apr 16, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> I love the the title of this thread! 🤣


Between ‘Saw VI’ and ‘Saw VII’....there was ‘Saw VI-Control’
“Help me choose, or I will die” 🃏


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## Mike Fox (Apr 16, 2021)

Mr Sakitumi said:


> Between ‘Saw VI’ and ‘Saw VII’....there was ‘Saw VI-Control’
> “Help me choose, or I will die” 🃏


Bahahahahaha!!!!!!!


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## Mr Sakitumi (Apr 16, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Bahahahahaha!!!!!!!


Jigsaw wants his quartet 🎻 composition by the end of the film!


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## Trash Panda (Apr 16, 2021)

Mr Sakitumi said:


> Between ‘Saw VI’ and ‘Saw VII’....there was ‘Saw VI-Control’
> “Help me choose, or I will die” 🃏


Saw VI-C was some of the finest work done by @charlieclouser or anyone else for that matter.


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