# Common instruments you "forget" using...



## Christian Marcussen (Feb 16, 2007)

It just occured to me how little I use Trumpets. I guess it's because Trumpets generally dont sound as good sampled as say Epic Horns. I mostly use them for quick "rat, tat, tat" kind of blast in an action peice or for clusters. 

Really stupid I know, but my instinct is to go for the Horns everytime.

How about you? Are there instruments you know you ought be using far more than you do?


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## DeOlivier (Feb 16, 2007)

I had the same problems with trumpet samples, but then I started to use solo trumpet samples instead (or layering them) and that sounded more realistic for some kinds of lines.

But there are still other instruments I often "forget":

- Oboes often appear as solo instruments in my work, but I often leave them out in ensemble stuff because they tend to stick ou too much...

- My no. 1 problem child at the moment are the trombones. Every time I want to use them, I try french horns instead and they seem to sound better. I use them for low blasts, together with bass trombones and tuba mostly. Would be pretty boring for real players... In addition, good writing for trombones seems to be harder than for other brass instruments, and so I often go the easy way and just leave them out... I hope this changes when I have finished Peter's Professional Orchestration class.

- Tuba.

- The additional instuments of the large Romantic orchestra: cor anglais, bass clarinet, contrabassoon, bass trombone and so on.

- I seldom use the concert bass drum in the percussion section.

- I should use more woodwinds in general, and especially the woodwind ensemble together. It has a beautiful, distinctive sound, which is often missing in recent soundtracks.


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## Scott Cairns (Feb 16, 2007)

All the woodwinds probably. I use flutes to double violins and clarinets to double viola's on occasion, but I know I still dont give them enough air time.

Problem is, Im almost always called on to write action/battle music, I know there's plenty that can be written for the winds, but sometimes I long for easy sonorous passages of music to let an oboe stretch out...

Anyway, enough of my problems. o/~


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## DeOlivier (Feb 16, 2007)

You're right, Scott, I heard trombonists play pretty agile parts, too. There seems to be a problem with certain intervals, though (when the player has to change positions quickly, especially from the 1st to the 7th position). I have a friend who is a very good trombone player, and I hope I can discuss this topic with him soon.


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## Waywyn (Feb 16, 2007)

English horn is very seldom here.

I remember a time when I didn't even had it in my template :lol:


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 16, 2007)

Excellent and inspiring Subject, Christian!! Thanks. :wink:


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## Waywyn (Feb 16, 2007)

Actually James brought me to that.

I know a thousand people did it before, but double Celli with Metal Powerchords. Yummy !!!

You don't even need to hear the guitars, but the effect is cool. The Celli sound really crunchy then.


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 16, 2007)

DeOlivier @ Fri Feb 16 said:


> - Tuba.
> 
> - The additional instuments of the large Romantic orchestra: cor anglais, bass clarinet, contrabassoon, bass trombone and so on.
> 
> ...



Hey DeOliver,

Bass Drum rolls coupled with timpani rolls definitely is essential for more intense orchestration. To me, Tuba is an essential part of the brass section. Add it with soft p French Horns for a warmer rich sound much like you would add Double Basses occasionally to lend warmth and bottom end to the rest of the string section. Bassoon is so underestimated - it has a lyrical quality like English Horn but is darker. 

Great topic!


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## david robinson (Feb 16, 2007)

Hi Frederick, 
i love the bottom end orch inst's, and try to get different sets of overtones by combining them.

i find there's a lack of fundamental in most, probably a good idea for the concert hall, but for recordings.......?
no wonder soundtrack guys use synths to reinforce the fundamental.

anyway, i just love violas with cor anglais, bassoon, any double reed actually.

in fact that they are never quite "in tune" is the best part.


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## david robinson (Feb 16, 2007)

Hi Christian, treasure your trmps and bones.
i've done sessions with real "pro players" and would have, in the end, preferred to use samples.


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## RiffWraith (Feb 20, 2007)

Ditto here on the English Horn. I don't forget to use it; I simply can't find any place to put it. Poor little horn.... :(


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## Scott Cairns (Feb 20, 2007)

Actually, I like the "quack" of the E. Horn down low - its also useful for doubling strings and creates a different colour.


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## rJames (Feb 20, 2007)

Scott, you and IU are thinking exactly the same...except for totally opposite.

I was doing some horror stuff a couple of months back and got all my woodwinds in their highest register to make them squeak. It was terrible...in a good way.


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## Scott Cairns (Feb 20, 2007)

I know what you mean. Playing instruments out of their natural range can be great for special fx (IMHO too)


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## kape (Feb 20, 2007)

david robinson @ Fri Feb 16 said:


> DeOlivier.
> 
> your oboes "stick out too much"?
> 
> ...



Well, oboes aren´t smooth.I´d like to cite from Ebenezer Prout´s "The Orchestra-orchestral techniques and combinations"(available in reprint from Dover): _"If chords __of a smooth and homogeneous quality of tone are desired from the wood, it is in most cases better to omit the oboes from the combination_." and "_It was doubtless for this reason that Mozart, when he added clarinets to the score of his great symphony in G minor, rewrote the original oboe parts, and in nearly all the passages for wind alone replaced them by the clarinets."_


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## Scott Cairns (Feb 20, 2007)

I agree with that. I think Oboe's sound distinct at any part of their register, whereas flutes, clarinets and bassoons really blend until they climb into their respective strong ranges.


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## david robinson (Feb 21, 2007)

scott and kape:
re: oboes.
never had a problem blending doubles with single reeds at all.
i try not to be influenced too much by orchestration texts, no matter what the pedigree.
or musical history, for that matter.


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## david robinson (Feb 21, 2007)

PS: chords? what are chords?

i abandoned such concepts in my early twenties.

if i write, what you might call a "C Major triad" with a G in the low voice (6/4),to me it's simply "a series of stacked vibrations that sound pleasant to my ear".

i only trust my ear, and my good judgement, when it comes to art.


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## Necromancer (Apr 2, 2007)

For some reason, I never can use saxophone when I'm writing a serious orchestral piece...I only remember to use it when I have a swing piece to do, and I set it on 16th-note swing.


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## Mark Belbin (Apr 3, 2007)

The poor harpist is bored to tears in almost all of my stuff. When not bored, they are busy trying to figure out how to pedal what this lunatic wrote. Sometimes you just gotta be glad it's samples and not players!

Speaking of awesome combos: 

Melody in 2nd violins, roughly C5-C6. doubled by 1sts and octave higher. Add french horn (or several) on the same tune, in whatever part of the high half of it's range is most comfortable (the higher the better). If you can squeeze out a really high one, you can get away with a second horn (or bone
) an octave below that. Now accompany with a sweeping strings/winds combo, and reserve at least two high winds (fl/picc?) for a repeat where they join the big mess of instruments already playing the tune. 

Belbin


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## paoling (Apr 7, 2007)

Just coming back at the original Christian topic... Don' t you think that this is a limitation of our way of composing that' s really too much based on the quality of the samples?

I think we should all be able to "avoid" the need to listen at good sounds when we compose; maybe our final digital render will be less realistic, but as a "composition" it will be really free about the limitation of the samples we have...

I say this because it' s also a problem of me; sometime I limit my creations for a series of reasons that nothing have to do with music, like the limits of Ram, the strange tuning of some instruments (like the oboe in EWQLSO that doesn' t convince me), the unplayiability of some articulations on the keyboard... And so on...


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## mirrodin (Jul 28, 2007)

I'm teaching myself as I go along doing my music production but in general I tend to hug onto string elements such as Cello and Violins because between those I can cover just about any octave I tend to write in. Outside of these two I might use trumpets sparingly to add accents to melody or a trombone to act as a transitional element, outside of that I don't stray too far from strings mostly because I can't hear (imagine) the lines for any respective instruments yet. I'm more for maintaining realism in terms what can be done and to do that I need the fundamentals of orchestration like shortest interval and instrument range at my fingertips... which I don't have yet. Any suggestions on expanding my horizons?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 29, 2007)

I keep forgetting the violins. They're so small...


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## Hannes_F (Jul 30, 2007)

david robinson @ Wed Feb 21 said:


> PS: chords? what are chords?
> 
> i abandoned such concepts in my early twenties.



+ 1000 o-[][]-o


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## Dave Connor (Jul 31, 2007)

You guys should listen to the Main Title to a film called Night Wing. Henry Mancini did the score and used Baritone Horns (they sound like a breed of Fr Horn.) He did this beautiful parallel minor 11 thing them and Harp and Native American flute or recorder or something. I met him once and immediatly asked him about it whereupon he informed me that the horns where done in two passes: the second pass the players tuned slightly up from the first. The biggest, fattest, most beautiful thing I ever heard (like a synth with occilators slightly out of tune.)

There's a guy who knew his instruments and how to use them.

I see this belongs in the "uncommon instrument" thread.


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## mirrodin (Jul 31, 2007)

Why would you never do that for a sampled mockup? The pieces you write before never implemented a soloist? Just curious. I've found that the solo violins sound quite good when I was working on a few different pieces of mine.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 31, 2007)

I have always just caught it on TV now and then. There may have been a soundtrack but I couldn't say.


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