# How to tactfully ask if I will be getting paid?



## RiffWraith (Nov 1, 2008)

I scored a couple of student films a bit over a year ago. One of the directors passed my name along to a fellow filmamker, who is doing a film of his own. He is not a student, not a pro. As far as I can tell, he did one film while a student, another short, and that's it. He is not on IMDB.

He contacted me the other day, and wanted to know if I would be interested in scoring his new film. Of course, I immediately replied, "sure I would be." Ok, details are coming soon; he starts shooting this month. 

So, I don't really know anything yet - I don't know the length, the budget (if there is one) if anyone else involved is getting paid. If he were a student, I would not bother asking if there was any pay involved, but not knowing much of anything here, I am inclined to ask.

What's the best, most tactful way, to ask him? Somehow things like:

"Are you paying me?"
"Is anyone else on the project getting paid?"

- just do not cut it. The best thing I can think of here is, "is there a music budget?"

Any other ideas on how to approach him?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Hal (Nov 1, 2008)

You will start by asking him first some info about the project u obviously know nothing about,this is the more important.
Scoring a court metrage wont be like scoring a 100 min Drama.
like what movie it is?
what kind?
when should u expect to receive videos?
then u go slow with the questions if u feel embarresed or anything if he doesnt talk to u about the money yet

then start asking about the recording/musicians number and budget.

And here u go ur actually making the deal..
i think u will manage from there 

NO I woudnt go for the Are you Paying me question ?


----------



## artsoundz (Nov 1, 2008)

I disagree. The first thing I would have asked is what the music budget is.


----------



## JohnG (Nov 1, 2008)

ask how it's going, what the schedule is, and how to get in touch with the producer so you can talk to him or her about the budget.

It's no big deal.


----------



## Craig Sharmat (Nov 1, 2008)

If they fire you for asking then you probably don't want to be involved with them anyway.

Ask for 2 million dollars.


----------



## RiffWraith (Nov 1, 2008)

JohnG @ Sun Nov 02 said:


> ask how it's going, what the schedule is, and how to get in touch with the producer so you can talk to him or her about the budget.
> 
> It's no big deal.



Producer - ha.



Craig Sharmat @ Sun Nov 02 said:


> If they fire you for asking then you probably don't want to be involved with them anyway.
> 
> Ask for 2 million dollars.



LOL - and work my way down from there? o/~


----------



## artsoundz (Nov 1, 2008)

I'll do it for 1.5 million. 

But I'll need a bowl full of M&m"s w/ the green ones removed or I walk.


----------



## schatzus (Nov 1, 2008)

If it is a paying job of ANY kind, there should be a more than a word-of-mouth, verbal contract. Write it down and get it signed BEFORE you write a single note.
Just my policy...


----------



## Dave Connor (Nov 1, 2008)

artsoundz @ Sat Nov 01 said:


> The first thing I would have asked is what the music budget is.



Exactly, or "Is there a music budget?" This de-personalizes things and is merely a professional inquiry as to the nature of the project. Once you get that information you can make the call on your involvement or not. If the director has the slightest chance of going on to any success than if possible, do it - whatever the money is. You can literally make millions in the future if you attach to a director who is going places.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 1, 2008)

Or you could ratchet it up a notch: "What's the music budget?" That isn't pushy or unreasonable.

In my struggling composer days I always insisted upon getting paid *something* even it was $100. The relationship is much better when money is involved; the amount has far less of an effect than just the fact that it's professional.


----------



## midphase (Nov 1, 2008)

""Are you paying me?" 
"Is anyone else on the project getting paid?" 

- just do not cut it. The best thing I can think of here is, "is there a music budget?" "

I think all three of these questions presume that you're not getting paid.

You really need to presume that you are getting paid, and as far as anyone else getting paid or not...that should be neither your business nor your concern (unless you're being asked to work for free...in which case it's a legitimate issue).


----------



## Thonex (Nov 2, 2008)

midphase @ Sat Nov 01 said:


> ""Are you paying me?"
> "Is anyone else on the project getting paid?"
> 
> - just do not cut it. The best thing I can think of here is, "is there a music budget?" "
> ...



"What's the music budget?"

That's what I ask.


----------



## lux (Nov 2, 2008)

Craig Sharmat @ Sat Nov 01 said:


> If they fire you for asking then you probably don't want to be involved with them anyway.
> 
> Ask for 2 million dollars.



 

interestic topic tho, english formulas for politely asking something work related. I think it should be extended to other cases


----------



## Conor (Nov 2, 2008)

I have also become a big fan of "What's your music budget?"

If there is a budget, you're off to a good start by approaching it from the most professional angle. As in, OBVIOUSLY I'm getting paid for my totally awesome work. Now let's talk details.

If there's no budget, it at least puts you in a position of strength. As in, sure I'll work for free in this case (assuming you will?), but you'd better realize I'M the one doing YOU a favor.

*soapbox*
Man, I get so ticked by directors who treat musicians like the musician's career is the charity case, and not their budgetless film.
*/soapbox*

Anyway, yeah, just ask what the budget is as if you expect there to be one.


----------



## kid-surf (Nov 2, 2008)

Ditto Kays...


It's psychology...

The three questions are 'leading'. They are also, desperate. They essentially express: "do you feel like paying me...because you don't have to if you don't feel like it". What egotistical, noob director will turn around and say "why, yes, I'd love to pay you because you DESERVE to be paid, same as this moron beside me who's taping wires to the ground, or that dude over yonder who brought us these stale bagels we're munching". There is a very good chance this new director still believes he's doing everyone involved a HUGE favor by allowing them to work on his precious film. Don't forget that YOU are doing HIM a favor. After all, HE gets all the credit if the film does anything. At which point, he can blow you off if he so choses. He's the one who'll get the deal, not you. So, please, make him pay you...something.


----------



## kid-surf (Nov 2, 2008)

> *soapbox*
> Man, I get so ticked by directors who treat musicians like the musician's career is the charity case, and not their budgetless film.
> */soapbox*



Soapbox away. It needs to be said far more than it is...


----------



## artsoundz (Nov 2, 2008)

any more room on that soap box? I find it most interesting that one would feel the need for tact. It certainly isn't even the ballpark of a polite vs,impolite issue. It's just biz.

But nothing Jeff said says that the director expects it for free.But it does sound like there is probably no money.

you could alwayscall him and say "if you are on tight budget, a sample based score can be cheaper than live musicians or we add a couple live players etc". 


The he says_ "uhhh... there isnt any money...but I can offer a free copy of the..........hello?........hello?"


----------



## lux (Nov 2, 2008)

artsoundz @ Sun Nov 02 said:


> The he says_ "uhhh... there isnt any money...but I can offer a free copy of the..........hello?........hello?"



:mrgreen:


----------



## Daryl (Nov 2, 2008)

"What's the Music budget?"

Nothing else needs to be said.

D


----------



## Will Loconto (Nov 2, 2008)

midphase @ Sun Nov 02 said:


> You really need to presume that you are getting paid, and as far as anyone else getting paid or not...that should be neither your business nor your concern (unless you're being asked to work for free...in which case it's a legitimate issue).



I agree. Always start out presuming you are going to get paid. Realistically, the director should be the uncomfortable one if he's asking for free music, not you when you're expecting to be compensated for work.


----------



## Christian Marcussen (Nov 2, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Nov 01 said:


> Or you could ratchet it up a notch: *"What's the music budget?"* That isn't pushy or unreasonable.



That's what I would say.


----------



## Colin O'Malley (Nov 2, 2008)

Maybe something subtle like "how much are you not gonna pay me?"

Colin


----------



## Dave Connor (Nov 2, 2008)

Colin O'Malley @ Sun Nov 02 said:


> Maybe something subtle like "how much are you not gonna pay me?"
> 
> Colin



Right or "How bad is the money?"


----------



## John DeBorde (Nov 2, 2008)

double ditto on presuming that you will be paid.

That way, if there is no money and you choose to do it for free, you can act like you will be doing him a big favor - which you would be! And I second Nick's suggestion to try and get even $100 if you can.

And by all means don't hand over the rights to your music unless you are paid handsomely for them.

:mrgreen: 

-john


----------



## RiffWraith (Nov 2, 2008)

midphase @ Sun Nov 02 said:


> ""Are you paying me?"
> "Is anyone else on the project getting paid?"
> 
> - just do not cut it. The best thing I can think of here is, "is there a music budget?" "
> ...



I was saying that the first two q's, of course, are NOT ones that should be asked. But you think q #3 - "is there a music budget?" _also_ presumes I am not getting paid?


----------



## Dave Connor (Nov 2, 2008)

kid-surf @ Sun Nov 02 said:


> Just know that many, many folks out there/here have no ethics. They will smile in your face so long as they feel they can ride you like a donkey. They look at the composer as a stepping-stone.


Unfortunately true. I scored an instructional video about cancer survivors hosted by a very well known actor (himself a survivor.) Did it for free with the promise that if the director did a film I would score it. How happy could I have been when he won an Oscar for a documentary? Never heard a word about the production at any time along the way.

Even so, one always hopes to be a John Williams to some Steven Spielberg out there. Meeting young or upcoming directors can make or break a career.


----------



## RiffWraith (Nov 2, 2008)

Will Loconto @ Mon Nov 03 said:


> I would say "is there a music budget?" is a different question than "what is the music budget?"



Ok, that clears alot up - thanks.

Ok, - "what is the music budget?" it is.

Any final objections? :D


----------



## artsoundz (Nov 2, 2008)

Nope but if you get the 2 million, set some aside for your consultants.


----------



## RiffWraith (Nov 2, 2008)

artsoundz @ Mon Nov 03 said:


> Nope but if you get the 2 million, set some aside for your consultants.



Are you kidding, even if I get 1.5 mil I am buying you all a beer! o-[][]-o +

Hmmm - just found out something interesting. He has a full-length 90 min. feature in the works that he is seeking funding for. Hmmmm.....


----------



## artsoundz (Nov 2, 2008)

well, there you go. Maybe it will all work out. 

You're going to have to keep us updated on this one.


----------



## RiffWraith (Nov 2, 2008)

Will do!


----------



## midphase (Nov 2, 2008)

"Hmmm - just found out something interesting. He has a full-length 90 min. feature in the works that he is seeking funding for. Hmmmm....."

Ok...let me clear something up....EVERYONE has a feature that they're seeking funding for! I have a feature I'm seeking funding for, and I get the feeling Kid Surf does too.

Don't let the director talk you into doing him this "favor" so that he'll hook you up with the feature film when he gets funding...because that might never happen (or it might come with strings attached that cut you out).

Seriously...deal with the here and now. If he likes your work, he'll call you back for the feature when the time comes. Right now just worry about the short that's on the table and whether or not you want to get paid for it or not.


----------



## dkristian (Nov 3, 2008)

Some questions to ask:

*What made you consider me?*

From the client's answer to this question, you'll get a sense of how valuable you are to the project.

*What is your deadline?*

Here you'll find out how long you have to score te film, but more importantly (for me anyways), you'll find out if they will have time to catch a bad case of "revisionitis" and re-edit the film and make you rework things ad nauseam. Projects with unclear deadlines have a tendency to go on forever, reducing your salary to peanuts, and preventing you to take on new work.

*What is your music budget?*

After having answered the first two questions, they will have less of a tendency to try and get you on the cheap, knowing there is more of a chance you will turn them down if the amount is unreasonable.


----------



## TheoKrueger (Nov 3, 2008)

I'd ask something like:

What's the length of the movie?
What is it about? 
What style is the movie?
How much do you pay for 60 minutes of music in that exact genre/type?
Please make me an offer for the music budget including all the studio/hiring and professional expenses. Thank you very much.

My name.


----------



## Markus S (Nov 3, 2008)

Why not turn it around : Some can-you-provide-me-more-information-and-I-will prepare-an-offer-type-of-thing?

Then, depending on the information and your standard rate, you make them an offer you are comfortable with, and if possible, that is also interesting for the client.

But the question is "if I *will* get payed", like, "will I get payed at all or not". But, concluding from your post, you suppose that you are payed anyway something, right?


----------



## Thonex (Nov 3, 2008)

John DeBorde @ Sun Nov 02 said:


> And I second Nick's suggestion to try and get even $100 if you can.



I respectfully disagree with this statement.

I'll tell you why.

Every once in a while I do some pro-bono work (to keep me honest and to help someone out). Or sometimes someone will ask me to help them with a PSA and they only have a few hundred dollars. Instead of taking a few hundred bucks (that really doesn't compensate me in any equitable way) I tell them... "you have a tight budget, and it doesn't really compensate me for my services, but I'd be more than happy to help you out and do you a favor on this one... for free."

This does several things. 

1) You are not lowering your rates to a couple hundred bucks for a gig... instead, you're doing them a favor... and they'll remember that for a LONG time... I guarantee it. 

2) It reduces the likelihood of micro managing.. because you're doing them a favor.

3) If it's a project you believe in (and these are the only cases I do these types of things) then you feel good about yourself for helping someone out.

Bottom line is that almost every time I have done someone a "favor" like this, it has come back to me with more business... by word of mouth... or they come back with a gig with a real budget etc.

So, IMO, you gain a lot more for turning down the $100 and doing it for free than you get for taking it.

Also... what are you gonna do with a hundred bucks?? :D 

Your millage may vary.

T


----------



## John DeBorde (Nov 3, 2008)

I hear you Thonex, and I made this recommendation based on the fact that Riffwraith seems to be just starting out with the paying gigs, in which case I think it's good practice to negotiate and receive compensation for gigs, even if it's just a nominal sum. 

I recently agreed to do something pro-bono, and it never occurred to me to try and get $100, as that seemed even more insulting to me than doing someone a favor as you mention. And I'd like to point out that for every favor that returns good will, there's one producer that goes off in search of the next free lunch, so it's important to try and sniff these out I think before agreeing to the favor. If I had a nickel for every time I heard "if you do this for me, I'll make it up to you on the next gig" - especially when I first started out, I'd, well.... let 's just say I could buy myself lunch. ( a nickels' just not what it used to be). I even had one producer that I like start to say that to me, and then stop and laugh at himself when he realized how trite it sounded.

That said, this business is definitely built on relationships, so you have to forge them by whatever means you can.

and $100 will at least buy you a good dinner with the wife, so...what the hay? (you betcha!  )

Asking for money is hard for some people to do, especially when they are first starting out, so I think it's a good thing to practice (just like your instrument) even if it's for peanuts.

anyway, just my 2¢

john


----------



## Thonex (Nov 3, 2008)

John DeBorde @ Mon Nov 03 said:


> I hear you Thonex, and I made this recommendation based on the fact that Riffwraith seems to be just starting out with the paying gigs, in which case I think it's good practice to negotiate and receive compensation for gigs, even if it's just a nominal sum.



Agreed if you're just starting out.

You gotta start somewhere. :D


----------



## RiffWraith (Nov 3, 2008)

Some good thoughts here - thanks for the time, gents.

I think I will stick to the "what is the music budget" q, and if he says "there is none, I was expecting a freebie here", I say, "ok, then I am expecting first crack at your full length feature when you are properly funded." Or something like that.

Cheers.


----------



## Christian Marcussen (Nov 3, 2008)

RiffWraith @ Mon Nov 03 said:


> Some good thoughts here - thanks for the time, gents.
> 
> I think I will stick to the "what is the music budget" q, and if he says "there is none, I was expecting a freebie here", I say, "ok, then I am expecting first crack at your full length feature when you are properly funded." Or something like that.
> 
> Cheers.



Keep in mind though - that while he may agree to that and mean it... when he gets funding he's likely to not have the power to decide who scores the film. But It's better than nothing I guess


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 3, 2008)

Actually I respectfully agree with you, Prof. Thonex. It definitely depends on the situation.

I've done pro bono work too, but I was thinking about the types of projects I did in the early 80s that were less than a step above student films. In those cases the point was to create a professional relationship; there was little danger of anyone thinking $100 was my usual fee.

But you're right - there are many circumstances in which that would be really stupid.


----------



## Dave Connor (Nov 3, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Nov 03 said:


> Actually I respectfully agree with you, Prof. Thonex. It definitely depends on the situation.



I agree here too. It's really a call you have to make almost on a gut level. I've endured ill treatment up front only to find myself eventually working with the best musicians in LA with big orchestras. Credits are very important and their own type of currency. You can score a film for free and come away with a calling card (the film) and demo reel (the music.) Even so it bothers me the way producers have kept encroaching on composers money and there's no excuse for that.


----------



## kid-surf (Nov 5, 2008)

Ditto what you guys have said, so I'll add something else...


This talk of fees/quotes reminds me of the benefit of having "peeps" (agent / manager / lawyer -- any or all). The primary benefit to us, in this scenario, is in not having to be the bad guy. I was reminded just today to never mention money, even casually. It's the agent/manager/lawyer's job to ask for too much, the company/individual in question knows this, expects it as a normal function of making any deal. Allows the artist to let 'them' work it out...we aren't put in the position of offending someone over simply asking for a "reasonable" fee.

Interesting how that works. The artist asks for a reasonable fee and people are taken aback, yet when the agent asks for 'more than' (or a raise) it's considered business as usual...no one is offended.

Strange business...


----------



## kid-surf (Nov 5, 2008)

Oh...And I just 'passed' on an idea brought to me by someone who just sold something for high 6 figures. Feels very strange where _I'm_ the one passing on a legit dude. Hopefully I'm making the right choices. Trying to choose those gigs that are of the highest quality, over paydays.

Thinking long range...I don't wish to find myself trapped. It's a tough call.


----------



## poseur (Nov 6, 2008)

kid-surf @ Wed Nov 05 said:


> Oh...And I just 'passed' on an idea brought to me by someone who just sold something for high 6 figures. Feels very strange where _I'm_ the one passing on a legit dude. Hopefully I'm making the right choices. Trying to choose those gigs that are of the highest quality, over paydays.
> 
> Thinking long range...I don't wish to find myself trapped. It's a tough call.


we got some small birds-of-a-feather stuff goin' on, kid;
i also passed a on a biggie, recently.....
..... it looked like it was gonna be a freakin' nightmare,
with a very high potential for extremely unmusical
micro-management of the score;
i had to let it go.
happens, sometimes!
moving on, now.....
8) 
d


----------



## kid-surf (Nov 6, 2008)

I'll always flock to your POV, I enjoy and relate to it.

So let's see, an artist does their best work micro-managed, um......when?

I don't get the lack of trust issue, it's so very insulting. Why hire a guy if you don't trust them to deliver? That is the core message of micro-management, IMO. Hard to imagine they don't decipher it as a lose-lose scenario. A good director knows that he'll get crap performances out of actors if he's all over them...same with a composer. Not going to get their unfiltered greatness - Not going to arrive at magic. If it's the producer who's dong this, the director should fight on behalf of the principal players. Do we want this film to be great, or not?

These are principal players. Guys (or girls/chicks/women) who are GREAT at what they do...let them do it, I say. Otherwise...do it yourself, and good luck! 

I have no doubt you'll find something more fulfilling, you do great work! 8)


----------



## poseur (Nov 7, 2008)

kid-surf @ Thu Nov 06 said:


> I'll always flock to your POV, I enjoy and relate to it.


dude; dude.



kid-surf @ Thu Nov 06 said:


> So let's see, an artist does their best work micro-managed, um......when?


rarely, but sometimes..... against the odds,
though certain personal pressures brought-to-bear on
the creative composer can (accidentally, or in reaction)
certainly lead to "interesting" results..... i think.



kid-surf @ Thu Nov 06 said:


> Why hire a guy if you don't trust them to deliver? That is the core message of micro-management, IMO. Hard to imagine they don't decipher it as a lose-lose scenario. A good director knows that he'll get crap performances out of actors if he's all over them...same with a composer.


often, the core-concept that "goes missing" is that
provision of score, while collaborative for sure,
is, indeed, of a _creative_ focus:
there are only 2 stages of "writing" on any picture;
we are the second (and, critically) last stage.....
seems to me, anyways.....



kid-surf @ Thu Nov 06 said:


> I have no doubt you'll find something more fulfilling, you do great work! 8)


thanks for the support, kid!
i'm fine with passing on that project, really;
this (music in general) is a strange _business_,
but my head is down,
& i continue keeping me gypsy nose-to-the-grindstone!
and..... i am working, as well --- just on one less (coulda been cool) project.

d


----------



## Pzy-Clone (Nov 12, 2008)

Theres some truth to the old saying "act like a million bucks..." ...i dunno, make it clear that you either do it for money or not, in the very beginning.

Dont let it come to a point where you think you MIGHT get paid, ...and they are being vague on the budget and details, or even start changing the facts as you go along.

Go with what are specific details, not eventualities...everyone has a million plans and good intentions.

And if its too good to be true, its not true.

IMO its perfectly legit to work for nothing if its interesting in some way, but make that clear from the start so you can plan you time accordingly.

Its not rude to ask "can i please be informed of the music budget" ?
Maybe they assumed you would be doing for for free, but atleast then you will know,\ and will be able to make a decision in the matter.

...its your job, or you want it to be, so value your time, and others will too. Hopefully 

Good luck.


----------

