# Pirates in sampling?



## Spices (Apr 14, 2021)

Now there is a evident risk that I´m getting paranoid sound wise – but is there anyone out there getting the creeping feeling that we are entering a new era of sampling piracy? 

I´m always looking for new sounds and do enjoy it a lot. But I can´t help thinking that some of the new shiny libraries may be tricky combinations of sounds, once created by others. Do you get the same feeling? Repackaging old digital material is a growing threat to a great industry, so I do hope that I´m wrong, but the suspicion keep growing when listening to some hybrid and effect oriented libraries popping up lately.

So am I paranoid, or are we getting screwed?

Spices


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## doctoremmet (Apr 14, 2021)

I can’t say that I recognize this. I am mainly listening to the major league vendors’ offerings (VSL, SA, 8dio etc) and the talented avant-garde of boutique indie vendors (Bunker, Westwood, Osterhouse, Waverunner, Karoryfer, Xsample etc) and I can assure you they all put in a LOT of effort, energy, blood, sweat and tears. And passion. And there’s no piracy in sight.

So maybe you’re referring to other types of sample packages that aren’t on my radar. 

TL;DR: erm.... no?


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## d.healey (Apr 14, 2021)

Spices said:


> So am I paranoid, or are we getting screwed?


Both


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## doctoremmet (Apr 14, 2021)

Expand


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## Jdiggity1 (Apr 14, 2021)

They stay relatively unknown, but they're out there for sure. Saw another one just recently that raises all the red flags.
Every so often we get a new thread started here asking about the legitimacy of a developer/product, and often they are in fact a bit dodgy.
We do our best to keep them _off _doctoremmet's radar (and everyone else's)

EDIT: To clarify, I'm not referring to the repackaging of libraries by legitimate developers. I'm talking about new 'developers' selling suspiciously familiar products, repackaged.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 14, 2021)

Jdiggity1 said:


> We do our best to keep them _off _doctoremmet's radar


Much to my relief, so thanks. To clarify: I have no doubt there’s piracy, so maybe my reaction was a bit unwarranted or at least pointless. Sorry ‘bout that! I didn’t mean to downplay the issue.


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## ashX (Apr 14, 2021)

Tbh I think the majority of those 'trap and hiphop drum kits' are just recycled/stolen somewhere sounds.
But if we speak about big companies that produce orchestral sample libraries, they will not risk their reputation doing stuff like that.


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## Simon Schrenk (Apr 14, 2021)

Some companies do use their existing sample material to create new libraries, but that's not piracy since they own the complete material. When they come up with new exciting libraries with the same material, that's fine by me!


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## khollister (Apr 14, 2021)

The term "piracy" usually is connected with end-users. "Plagiarism" would be a term more associated with what I believe the OP is referring to. That said, I also suspect this is much more related to practices in the business of selling samples (i.e. wav files or loops) than sample libraries in the way we usually think of them (content for Kontakt, EXS, etc). Frankly, I'm not sure what purpose the discussion serves without specific examples of vendors to avoid. Given the somewhat dodgy legal status of early sampling anyway (pulling loops from commercial records), this isn't exactly shocking news to me.


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## Kent (Apr 14, 2021)

I really need to start reading these titles better; I was about to recommend reading https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/scoring-pirates-caribbean-iii 

...which deals a lot with sampling in _Pirates_.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 14, 2021)

Damn, I came into this thread hoping for a sample library based around scoring Pirate themes.


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## rrichard63 (Apr 14, 2021)

khollister said:


> I also suspect this is much more related to practices in the business of selling samples (i.e. wav files or loops) than sample libraries in the way we usually think of them (content for Kontakt, EXS, etc).


I agree. I have come across several sellers of ripped-off loops (often very obviously so), but only one that sell provable rip-offs of virtual instruments. (There's also Muze, aka Sonex aka Qataz, but no one is sure whether or not their samples are stolen.) Many of the loop libraries contain old material that is out of print from the original publishers, so the current sellers might think what they're doing is okay.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 14, 2021)

rrichard63 said:


> I agree. I have come across several sellers of ripped-off loops (often very obviously so), but only one that sell provable rip-offs of virtual instruments. (There's also Muze, aka Sonex aka Qataz, but no one is sure whether or not their samples are stolen.) Many of the loop libraries contain old material that is out of print from the original publishers, so the current sellers might think what they're doing is okay.


These are the ones I've heard about. Kind of a re-sampled samples?

But you also can sell loops you've made with sample libraries as long as they aren't bare samples. I know that is the way a number of people here make their living. But I'm not sure that those loops can be put in a virtual instrument player that would let you combine the loops without breaking the EULA.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 14, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Damn, I came into this thread hoping for a sample library based around scoring Pirate themes.


Which is more useful than another piracy thread. Thinking that sounds are stolen one doesn't realize there are royalty free agreements. When you buy sample packs often they will tell you what is used. I know of only one developer that is no longer around that used the built in Kontakt orchestra sounds to sell them off as Refills. If someone pushes an orchestra library for $20 most likely it's not legit and often the flaw is quality.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 14, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> I know from one developer that their libraries sounds had been redistributed under Ghosthack free packs, and they were illegitimate in doing so. They were very unhappy and had approach Ghosthack about it. I'm not sure on the outcome though.
> 
> As for repackaging. Sometimes it does occur, but we've seen good practice from dev's which do make this known and discount it for price due to this, or given for free. E.g Jaeger / Nucleus, Albion 1 / Epic Strings. I'd imagine if it was the exact same sample repackaged people would possibly hear it.


Ghosthack replied on this forum about it. It was gossip since no evidence was presented in the accusations. They are a popular developer that if the accusations were true someone would go after them.


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## rrichard63 (Apr 14, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> These are the ones I've heard about. Kind of a re-sampled samples?


If you're referring specifically to Muze (and their other names), that's what some commenters thought they are doing. It doesn't strike me as legitimate. But I think there's probably a gray area.

On the one hand, it is clearly legitimate to make a virtual instrument by recording the output of hardware synthesizers (UVI, Soundiron, Synth Magic, Hollow Sun, Puremagnetik and a host of others). That's no different from sampling a physical violin or a piano. On the other hand, it feels wrong to re-sample a virtual instrument (whether made from acoustic or electronic sources) and sell the result as a (separate) virtual instrument. But what about sampling the output of a software synthesizer and selling the result as a (separate) virtual instrument? That feels wrong to me, too, but on what grounds exactly?



dzilizzi said:


> But you also can sell loops you've made with sample libraries as long as they aren't bare samples. I know that is the way a number of people here make their living. But I'm not sure that those loops can be put in a virtual instrument player that would let you combine the loops without breaking the EULA.


This is quite different. In EDM and urban genres, many (probably most) loop collections are made using synths and VIs. I was referring to something else -- sellers on eBay who will send you the entire Sonic Foundry catalog of Acid loop collections or all 62 titles in the Univers Son Soundscan series (to cite two examples) for $30 or so.


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## d.healey (Apr 14, 2021)

rrichard63 said:


> But what about sampling the output of a software synthesizer and selling the result as a (separate) virtual instrument? That feels wrong to me, too, but on what grounds exactly?


Seems pointless to me, why not just use the original synth.


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## Daniel James (Apr 14, 2021)

One of the worst scenarios happened recently to one of the bigger developers. This dev tends to 'outsource' the library work then put their label and touch on it at the end. Turned out one of the people they outsourced a library to, made their content with sounds stolen from a direct competitor (thinking it was actually ok to do so). That library swiftly disappeared 😂...although I think it came back in some form, there are definitely people who bought it before it was pulled and are either now using illegal samples they think they own or were hopefully refunded. 

But also we are reaching a sort of singularity, where there are only so many versions of a braaam one can make before the differences between them begin to lessen. So they will inevitably start to sound alike. What comes next will hopefully be an explosion of exploration into the ideas of the past that were never taken to their fullest extent. But for now the race to close the gap on braaam and single piano tone variations bundles along 😂

I still use braams but nowadays mostly as a mid or background element to give some spice. The days of those types of sounds being a solo'd sound effect have to be numbered. Again the sounds themselves still have a huge place but as a feature, I feel things shifting soon.

-DJ


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## rrichard63 (Apr 14, 2021)

d.healey said:


> Seems pointless to me, why not just use the original synth.


Most of the copies we are talking about are dirt cheap. In fact, price is usually the first clue that something might be amiss.


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## ashX (Apr 14, 2021)

Daniel James said:


> One of the worst scenarios happened recently to one of the bigger developers. This dev tends to 'outsource' the library work then put their label and touch on it at the end. Turned out one of the people they outsourced a library to, made their content with sounds stolen from a direct competitor (thinking it was actually ok to do so). That library swiftly disappeared 😂...although I think it came back in some form, there are definitely people who bought it before it was pulled and are either now using illegal samples they think they own or were hopefully refunded.
> 
> But also we are reaching a sort of singularity, where there are only so many versions of a braaam one can make before the differences between them begin to lessen. So they will inevitably start to sound alike. What comes next will hopefully be an explosion of exploration into the ideas of the past that were never taken to their fullest extent. But for now the race to close the gap on braaam and single piano tone variations bundles along 😂
> 
> ...


Audio Imperia? I think they removed their library Decimator from their site. Or maybe it's not them you are talking about.
They came to my mind because they have some libraries made by someone else/outsourced.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Apr 14, 2021)

ashX said:


> Audio Imperia? I think they removed their library Decimator from their site. Or maybe it's not them you are talking about.
> They came to my mind because they have some libraries made by someone else/outsourced.


They removed it a long time ago because of Cerberus, meant as new better version of Decimator (but all new recordings)
It was on sale for a very long time so it was neither "swiftly removed" nor "recently".


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## Ghosthack (May 18, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> I know from one developer that their libraries sounds had been redistributed under Ghosthack free packs, and they were illegitimate in doing so. They were very unhappy and had approach Ghosthack about it. I'm not sure on the outcome though.
> 
> As for repackaging. Sometimes it does occur, but we've seen good practice from dev's which do make this known and discount it for price due to this, or given for free. E.g Jaeger / Nucleus, Albion 1 / Epic Strings. I'd imagine if it was the exact same sample repackaged people would possibly hear it.


Please don't spread false rumors without any evidence, thanks 

Who is this "one developer"?


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## Peter Satera (May 18, 2021)

Ghosthack said:


> Please don't spread false rumors without any evidence, thanks
> 
> Who is this "one developer"?


I have since removed the post, you may wish to remove the quote too. I retract any statement I have made.


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## lettucehat (May 18, 2021)

Ok so we can get back to speculating on the removed library? I would have guessed Decimator as well, but that’s old at this point. Any other guesses?


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## robgb (May 18, 2021)

I'm always curious about stuff like this. There was a developer selling incredibly cheap sample libraries a couple years back and I had to wonder how they could do it. Many here said the developer wasn't legit, but how do you prove that. And what is the responsibility of the consumer? If he or she believes they're buying something legit (the site, as I recall, was professionally done), what are the legal consequences? Someone who doesn't regularly deal with sample developers would never know the difference between legit and "iffy."


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## Mike Fox (May 18, 2021)

When someone uses “bigger developers” and “tends to outsource” in the same sentence, 8Dio immediately comes to mind.


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## jcrosby (May 18, 2021)

ashX said:


> Audio Imperia? I think they removed their library Decimator from their site. Or maybe it's not them you are talking about.
> They came to my mind because they have some libraries made by someone else/outsourced.


No, AI have a number of products that were non Kontakt-player versions. These were replaced with Kontakt player libraries.

*Trailer Guitars II* used to be a non-player library, now it is one.
*Jaeger Hangar 4: Merethe Soltvedt* was non-player, now it is.
*Jaeger* was originally a non-player library. (At least AFAIK. I didn't buy v1 of Jaeger but I did buy v1 of _Hangar 4_. From what I recall though Jaeger's initial release was non-player.)
*Legacy* is 4 original non-player libraries - *Scenes from the Multiverse*, *Terraform*, and a couple others. These weren't player libraries originally, now they are:






Legacy (Cinematic SFX Collection for Kontakt Player)


Assimilating some of Audio Imperia’s most popular science-fiction and superhero sound effects products in one package, Legacy beams up sci-fi composition tools like Event Horizon, Dark Dimensions and Terraform with the superhero composer Scenes From The Multiverse. Legacy is a collection of the...




www.audioimperia.com





I'm assuming they've done this for a few reasons. My 1st guess would be to make piracy more difficult as there's absolutely no copy protection whatsoever for non-player libraries. My 2nd guess is that they decided the promotions would be beneficial in growing their brand. Just guesses though...

As far as _*outsourced*_: The only libraries I'm aware of that you might be referring to are Photosynthesis. These were originally created by a well established KSP developer (Exotic States). I don't know the whole back story but my guess is they had an agreement to sell the collection as a distributor of sorts.

Either way the developer was allowed to sell Photosynthesis through his own site at the same time and he was totally transparent about the whole thing... He sold the library to AI last fall and a player version is coming. He also still maintains a free download of the sample engine which might as well be Kontakt's missing link for people who want to manipulate samples in Kontakt.

See the link here for clarification...
https://www.exoticstates.com/

I really like AI as a developer, they'v had some of the best support I've dealt with in the Kontkat universe. They've always been transparent, and unlike a lot of sample devs they maintain a pretty consistent presence here. They listen to feedback, answer questions, etc... Please consider updating your original reply so people don't get the wrong idea, it would be respectful to them...


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## gst98 (May 18, 2021)

Yep 8Dio do a lot of outsourcing


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## gst98 (May 18, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> They've always been transparent, and unlike a lot of sample devs they maintain a pretty consistent presence here. They listen to feedback, answer questions, etc... Please consider updating your original reply so people don't get the wrong idea, it would be respectful to them...



I don’t remember them being very forthcoming about the re-use of samples across multiple libraries. They are very happy to re sell the same sample unless you actively ask for a cross grade discount. I mean, where in the Aeria marketing does it say it’s an expanse on Jaeger strings?

Otherwise, yes they are very active and responsive on here - it would be nice if others devs were like this. And I wish I could buy decimate still.


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## jcrosby (May 18, 2021)

gst98 said:


> I don’t remember them being very forthcoming about the re-use of samples across multiple libraries. They are very happy to re sell the same sample unless you actively ask for a cross grade discount. I mean, where in the Aeria marketing does it say it’s an expanse on Jaeger strings?
> 
> Otherwise, yes they are very active and responsive on here - it would be nice if others devs were like this. And I wish I could buy decimate still.


I've gotten free upgrades to Trailer Guitars II and Hangar 4. I may have had to email them, I honestly don't remember. I do remember it was painless though as there was at least one email exchange where I did have to reach out and they got back to me within a day with a player upgrade.

Areia has a bunch of articulations that Jaeger doesn't have. It's an extended version. (I happen to own both and I have absolutely no hangups about it...) It isn't any different from Spitfire releasing "pro" and non "pro" versions, EW selling Gold and Diamond, then hoping they sell you an upgrade. Or MA2 more or less being an extension of MA1 and vice versa... This also isn't any different from SF removing v1 versions of products and re-releasing them as upgrades with new versions. HZP for example was HZ01. HZ01 had one version only, HZP had pro and non-pro versions.

SF are way more notorious for this than any other developer I can think of. The original albion's were re-skinned and the old ones pulled down.. Then there's products like Mural that don't exist anymore. Not only have they had multiple Kontakt iterations and killed old products, they've also moved the bulk of exisiting libraries to their own sample player. Angular Strings for example was EVO Grid 01. (FYI I generally like SF. However they do tend to leave products abandoned which I'm not crazy about...)

You need to be smart and ask in some instances, but it's rare that a developer doesn't straighten it out for you... (At least IME..) My main point is that AI are hardly unique in this, and many of the bigger sample developers all have their own quirks.. It's pretty much standard for Kontakt, and if anything it's become more complicated/confusing as some developers have moved away from Kontakt.


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## gst98 (May 18, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> It isn't any different from Spitfire releasing "pro" and non "pro" versions, EW selling Gold and Diamond, then hoping they sell you an upgrade. This also isn't any different from SF removing v1 versions of products and re-releasing them as upgrades. HZP for example was HZ01. HZ01 had one version only, HZP had pro and non-pro versions. The original albion's were re-skinned and the old ones pulled down.. Then there's products like Mural...
> 
> SF are way more notorious for this than any other developer I can think of. Not only have they had multiple Kontakt iterations and killed old products, they've also moved the bulk of exisiting libraries to their own sample player. Angular Strings for example was EVO Grid 01. (FYI I generally like SF. However they do tend to leave products abandoned which I'm not crazy about...)
> 
> You need to be smart and ask in some instances, but it's rare that a developer doesn't straighten it out for you... (At least IME..) My main point is that AI are hardly unique in this. It's pretty much standard for Kontakt, and if anything it's become more complicated/confusing as some developers have moved away from Kontakt.


You're getting at two different things there. Most of which is re-releasing a product - which is absolutely fine. SF is a really bad example to pick because, despite my gripes with them, they are very honest with this. Their system automatically recognises that you've already bought something and registers you as a new user of the re-released product. SF never charge for these so I fail to see the relevance. I am unaware of SF releasing a product under a different name with a different subset of samples and charging for it.

But that isn't what AI has done. They recorded an orchestra, packaged it one way as Jaeger, stripped it down and added a couple of other bits and made Nucleus. Then added some more articulations and made Areia. Expect, at the time they never volunteered this information. Now on their website, they say it is derived from the same sample pool, but they never used to. If you look back at the original Areia VI control announcement there is no mention of this. As you say, AI is very good at answering questions, and they answer almost everyone in the thread _except_ the guy who asked if they are re-using samples.

This is much more in line with what OT did with Berlin Inspire, not SF. You even said it yourself, SF has a standard and Pro version. It's very obvious those are related products because they share the same name. Thankfully AI now clarifies this on the product page, because it is not obvious that Areia = Jaeger Strings Pro.

Be smart? really? So if someone doesn't know this you're happy for them to repurchase the same samples over and over again? You only need to read the comments from Cory's video to see many users never knew this. To my knowledge, SF has never done this, and it definitely wasn't up to the users to post videos and diagrams to inform other users of overlap.


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## darkogav (May 18, 2021)

gst98 said:


> Yep 8Dio do a lot of outsourcing


Why is that a bad thing? Just wondering.


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## Mike Fox (May 18, 2021)

darkogav said:


> Why is that a bad thing? Just wondering.


The biggest downside to outsourcing, imo, is the lack of consistency. 

When you have multiple developers designing your libraries, there’s going to be inconsistencies in regards to the room they were recorded in, the quality of the samples themselves, and also the playability/programming.

The NI Symphony Series is a prime example of this.


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## jcrosby (May 18, 2021)

gst98 said:


> Be smart? really? So if someone doesn't know this you're happy for them to repurchase the same samples over and over again?


Oh good lord. Obviously not. That was specifically in response to emailing about crossgrades and upgrading from a v1 product. As far as Jaeger vs Areia and Nucleus I own all 3, and have no gripes or regrets about it. All I can speak from is my perception of AI as a developer. But if you think I get a kick out of people feeling cheated well then I don't know what to say other than this is encapsulates everything I hate about this forum at times. A misunderstanding turns into an insinuation. I may not be the best at articulating myself but implying I find enjoyment out of people feeling disappointed?

And... clearly it's time to put VIC away for the day.


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## gst98 (May 19, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> Oh good lord. Obviously not. That was specifically in response to emailing about crossgrades and upgrading from a v1 product. As far as Jaeger vs Areia and Nucleus I own all 3, and have no gripes or regrets about it. All I can speak from is my perception of AI as a developer. But if you think I get a kick out of people feeling cheated well then I don't know what to say other than this is encapsulates everything I hate about this forum at times. A misunderstanding turns into an insinuation. I may not be the best at articulating myself but implying I find enjoyment out of people feeling disappointed?
> 
> And... clearly it's time to put VIC away for the day.


Come on though, if you write something in reply to me how am I supposed to know if you meant it or not? Hardly misunderstanding. I never said you got a kick out of it

Personally, I don't think it is on the consumer to have to work out and go asking for crossgrades, especially if that information is carefully obfuscated.


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## gst98 (May 19, 2021)

darkogav said:


> Why is that a bad thing? Just wondering.


It isn't necessarily. 8Dio outsourced a lot of their hybrid stuff. Audio Ollie just had Jon Aschalew do some synth stuff for them, and AI used well-known trailer designers such as Generdyn to make them some samples. 

In these cases, they've outsourced to people with more experience which is good. The downside is consistency, but that doesn't matter so much that you're hybrid samples blend with your orchestral stuff.

Where consistency does matter is with something like the NI symphony series where the quality is all over the place.


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## Voider (May 19, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> My 1st guess would be to make piracy more difficult as there's absolutely no copy protection whatsoever for non-player libraries


There is no copy protection with Kontakt as well. Nobody's gonna stop you from rendering everything out you want, the way you want.


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## mussnig (May 19, 2021)

Voider said:


> There is no copy protection with Kontakt as well. Nobody's gonna stop you from rendering everything out you want, the way you want.



I think the products themselves were meant here. If you have a library for Kontakt Full, you could easily just give your hardrive to someone else and they could also use it (as long as they have Kontakt Full). However, a Kontakt Player library needs to be registered with your account if you want to use it (but as far as I know, they still get pirated - so the protection can't be that good).


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## Voider (May 19, 2021)

mussnig said:


> I think the products themselves were meant here.


I've never seen someone selling a whole product from another company under false name, this thread is about stealing *samples *and then reselling them in a new product.

So Kontakt or not won't help, because you can easily record/render out any single note and sound in any library, hell, you could even make 10 variations of each if they give you sound shaping tools within the software.



mussnig said:


> However, a Kontakt Player library needs to be registered with your account if you want to use it (but as far as I know, they still get pirated - so the protection can't be that good).


That won't help since if I would pirate some samples of library X and sell them under any name in my product Y there is no way to track those samples back to my account name. And even if that would be the case, false identity and a throw-away email are quickly set up.

There's no real way to protect this stuff in the audio world, some companies claim their samples would be watermarked but I don't think so, don't know how that should work.

My soundsets have been pirated hundreds of times all around the world, the only thing one can do is find the links and send takedown inquiries to the filehosters. If however the pirates use some pirate-friendly anonymous website service hoster, whose business model is shady and aims at this kind of clients, you'll most likely not see any cooperation by them.

We had that case with a company who has their office registered in the middle of iceland. The website who used their "services" was hidden behind tons of rerouted servers and standpoints, it was really hard to track their original location down.


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## mussnig (May 19, 2021)

Voider said:


> I've never seen someone selling a whole product from another company under false name, this thread is about stealing *samples *and then reselling them in a new product.
> 
> So Kontakt or not won't help, because you can easily record/render out any single note and sound in any library, hell, you could even make 10 variations of each if they give you sound shaping tools within the software.
> 
> ...



Yes, I am aware of that. But I think @jcrosby was just generally speaking about reasons why someone would move their libraries from Kontakt Full to the Player.


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## babylonwaves (May 19, 2021)

mussnig said:


> But I think @jcrosby was just generally speaking about reasons why someone would move their libraries from Kontakt Full to the Player.


don't forget: many users don't have a full version of kontakt. it's not all about CP-


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## doctoremmet (May 19, 2021)

I gather most people who have no issue using pirated content will have easy access to a pirated version of Kontakt


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## mussnig (May 19, 2021)

babylonwaves said:


> don't forget. many users don't have a full version of kontakt. it's not all about CP-



Yes, of course. But if you read the whole discussion, you will see that I was referring to @jcrosby's statement about copy protection being a difference between Kontakt Full and Kontakt Player.


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## Voider (May 19, 2021)

mussnig said:


> you will see that I was referring to @jcrosby's statement about copy protection being a difference between Kontakt Full and Kontakt Player.


Yeah but there is none. Rendering out samples works exactly the same no matter if a library is made for Kontakt Full or the player.


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## maxchristensenaudio (May 19, 2021)

Best thing you can do if you ever find a sample library or pack that sounds suspiciously like a different one you know, then tell the developer.
Developers spend hours and hours listening to the same samples and they will most likely recognize them if they hear it, even if it's processed a bit.
So that developer could then file a lawsuit I imagine.


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## maxchristensenaudio (May 19, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> But you also can sell loops you've made with sample libraries as long as they aren't bare samples. I know that is the way a number of people here make their living. But I'm not sure that those loops can be put in a virtual instrument player that would let you combine the loops without breaking the EULA.


I doubt that very much. You can make music with sample libraries and then sell that music or license it, but I'm sure many EULAs will also say that you may NOT sell loops or other short form of audio (ie not a full piece of music)


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## mussnig (May 19, 2021)

Voider said:


> Yeah but there is none. Rendering out samples works exactly the same no matter if a library is made for Kontakt Full or the player.



Again, I'm pretty sure this was a very general statement about why someone would want to move to Kontakt Player. This had nothing to do with the topic of this thread (which concerns a different form of pirating - maybe that's where the confision comes from).

It's of course obvious that you can render out sounds from any library, although there are even ways to use some watermarking within samples (although I'm not aware of any dev using this - would be interesting to know).


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## Voider (May 19, 2021)

maxchristensenaudio said:


> I doubt that very much. You can make music with sample libraries and then sell that music or license it, but I'm sure many EULAs will also say that you may NOT sell loops or other short form of audio (ie not a full piece of music)


Exactly, unless it aren't Synthesizer sounds one created from scratch it isn't allowed to sample material from 3rd party products to create your own sample library from it.



mussnig said:


> It's of course obvious that you can render out sounds from any library, although there are even ways to use some watermarking within samples (although I'm not aware of any dev using this - would be interesting to know).


I believe that Heavyocity claimed that in their EULA but I don't believe it. To me it's like those "_Camera surveillance_" signs to scare off potential thieves when there isn't even a camera. 

The watermark would need to be fully inaudible being baked into the samples, individually generated for each single customer. Besides that I don't even know how this should be possible, this would probably be gone anyway as soon as you render that sample out or even alter it a bit.


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## mussnig (May 19, 2021)

Voider said:


> Exactly, unless it aren't Synthesizer sounds one created from scratch it isn't allowed to sample material from 3rd party products to create your own sample library from it.
> 
> 
> I believe that Heavyocity claimed that in their EULA but I don't believe it. To me it's like those "_Camera surveillance_" signs to scare off potential thieves when there isn't even a camera.
> ...



Some devs claim that they watermark (some of the) files, which seems pretty easy. So not the sounds themselves.

Obviously, watermarking the samples is far more tricky. I've once read about this (maybe there was a link somewhere on this forum) that there are ways to make watermarks within audio files which are basically inaudible to the human ear and which are more or less stable to some forms of sound processing. But I don't remember the details and I dont think it's straightforward to implement. If I remember correctly, the site where I was reading about this was selling this watermarking technique as a service ...


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## VSriHarsha (May 19, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> These are the ones I've heard about. Kind of a re-sampled samples?
> 
> But you also can sell loops you've made with sample libraries as long as they aren't bare samples. I know that is the way a number of people here make their living. But I'm not sure that those loops can be put in a virtual instrument player that would let you combine the loops without breaking the EULA.


Selling loops like that is legal?
Wow! I didn’t know that people combine loops but I think it’ll loose the authenticity, right?
On the other hand, I think every developer got their own T & C but I was never a fan of buying loops coz I thought people they make their own loops & use it in their own music. That should be fine, right?
I mean if you make a loop outta library & use it in your music, can you sell the music on the digital stores? That shouldn’t be a problem right?

Damn! Muze is not new it’s been existing with those 2 names. Thanks a lot to know.


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## VSriHarsha (May 19, 2021)

Wow! This is getting so good lol I think making a movie about it will be so damn good.

How about “The Developer” or should be “The Pirate” ? Lol!

Well, this might get pretty controversial so I wouldn’t direct it but yea, I’ll score.
Ronnie always interested in materials like these. How about Salvatore Totino handling the Cinematography?
Avy Kaufman will be casting. I think he’ll make it PG 13 so the young teens will know the deep, dark, dirty secrets in the world of Sample Library lol!


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## VSriHarsha (May 19, 2021)

mussnig said:


> Some devs claim that they watermark (some of the) files, which seems pretty easy. So not the sounds themselves.
> 
> Obviously, watermarking the samples is far more tricky. I've once read about this (maybe there was a link somewhere on this forum) that there are ways to make watermarks within audio files which are basically inaudible to the human ear and which are more or less stable to some forms of sound processing. But I don't remember the details and I dont think it's straightforward to implement. If I remember correctly, the site where I was reading about this was selling this watermarking technique as a service ...


Watermarking the files is not enough? Watermarking the sounds as in watermarking every note that’s been sampled? I think in that way, by the end of sampling the whole damn library, he can get sober enough to what not? Lol!


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## VSriHarsha (May 19, 2021)

But I think developers are wise & I am sure they know how to tackle things & they should.


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## bbrylow (May 19, 2021)

gst98 said:


> I don’t remember them being very forthcoming about the re-use of samples across multiple libraries. They are very happy to re sell the same sample unless you actively ask for a cross grade discount. I mean, where in the Aeria marketing does it say it’s an expanse on Jaeger strings?
> 
> Otherwise, yes they are very active and responsive on here - it would be nice if others devs were like this. And I wish I could buy decimate still.


Aeria is an entirely new library of recordings. It is not a recycling of any of the string library samples from Jaeger.


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## mussnig (May 19, 2021)

bbrylow said:


> Aeria is an entirely new library of recordings. It is not a recycling of any of the string library samples from Jaeger.



Audioimperia confirmed that indeed there is an overlap. See this post in thread 'Audio Imperia NI Sale' https://vi-control.net/community/threads/audio-imperia-ni-sale.97371/post-4629638


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## gst98 (May 19, 2021)

bbrylow said:


> Aeria is an entirely new library of recordings. It is not a recycling of any of the string library samples from Jaeger.


Yes, that is what they wanted you to think.

They sort of say it here now - but not explicitly. It's very open to interpretation hence why many are confused, and they certainly didn't say anything when it launched.


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## Drundfunk (May 19, 2021)

Can we please stay on track and find out the developer and the library Daniel mentioned (why even be so cryptic about it. I mean, shouldn't we know in case we bought this library? xD)


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## Land of Missing Parts (May 19, 2021)

gst98 said:


> To my knowledge, SF has never done this, and it definitely wasn't up to the users to post videos and diagrams to inform other users of overlap.


Excellent points! I'm guess SF re-uses samples in stuff like Aperture and maybe (speculating here) EDNA Earth, but transformed them enough that it's totally fair. And probably there's some re-use in the LABS (like EWC pad freebie). But I'm all about these potential re-use examples (if they even are that), and am not aware of anyone being bothered.


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## mussnig (May 19, 2021)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Excellent points! I'm guess SF re-uses samples in stuff like Aperture and maybe (speculating here) EDNA Earth, but transformed them enough that it's totally fair. And probably there's some re-use in the LABS (like EWC pad freebie). But I'm all about these potential re-use examples (if they even are that), and am not aware of anyone being bothered.



Yes, but Aperture (Strings and Orchestra) was a freebie (although you had to spend money first to get it). I think for similar reasons it's not possible to buy Masse on it's own (although there are of course other reasons as well, e.g., making it more attractive to buy SSO).


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## gst98 (May 19, 2021)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Excellent points! I'm guess SF re-uses samples in stuff like Aperture and maybe (speculating here) EDNA Earth, but transformed them enough that it's totally fair. And probably there's some re-use in the LABS (like EWC pad freebie). But I'm all about these potential re-use examples (if they even are that), and am not aware of anyone being bothered.


Yes, and in the walkthrough, they say how they are blending between chamber to symphonic.


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## dzilizzi (May 19, 2021)

maxchristensenaudio said:


> I doubt that very much. You can make music with sample libraries and then sell that music or license it, but I'm sure many EULAs will also say that you may NOT sell loops or other short form of audio (ie not a full piece of music)


They aren't bare samples. Is a 20 second piece of music any different from a 20 minute piece of music legally? And if you play it in a loop, isn't it a loop product?


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## maxchristensenaudio (May 20, 2021)

This is Native Instruments EULA (a part of it, at least)

"The provided samples, instruments and presets can be used for commercial or non-commercial music and audio productions without the prior permission from Native Instruments under the terms of this Sound License Agreement. The usage of this Product (in particular samples, instruments and presets) for the creation of a sound library or as a sound library for any kind of synthesizer, virtual instrument, sample library, sample-based product or other musical instrument is strictly prohibited. Individual samples, sound sets or audio loops may not be distributed (commercially or otherwise) standalone. Furthermore these samples, sound sets or audio *may not be repackaged in whole or in part* as audio samples, sound libraries or sound effects."

If you are making small 20s loops for selling to producers and composers, primarily using sample libraries, then that is a repackaging in my eyes. 
In general, if you are selling audio as samples or loops then you shouldnt use ANY sample libraries.
If you are making MUSIC for licensing, selling, streaming, etc etc then you can do whatever you want.

That is my opinion at least


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## maxchristensenaudio (May 20, 2021)

VSriHarsha said:


> Selling loops like that is legal?
> Wow! I didn’t know that people combine loops but I think it’ll loose the authenticity, right?
> On the other hand, I think every developer got their own T & C but I was never a fan of buying loops coz I thought people they make their own loops & use it in their own music. That should be fine, right?
> I mean if you make a loop outta library & use it in your music, can you sell the music on the digital stores? That shouldn’t be a problem right?
> ...


No it's not!! Don't jump to conclusions after reading one guys comment on the internet :D 
Do your own reserach


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## dzilizzi (May 20, 2021)

maxchristensenaudio said:


> This is Native Instruments EULA (a part of it, at least)
> 
> "The provided samples, instruments and presets can be used for commercial or non-commercial music and audio productions without the prior permission from Native Instruments under the terms of this Sound License Agreement. The usage of this Product (in particular samples, instruments and presets) for the creation of a sound library or as a sound library for any kind of synthesizer, virtual instrument, sample library, sample-based product or other musical instrument is strictly prohibited. Individual samples, sound sets or audio loops may not be distributed (commercially or otherwise) standalone. Furthermore these samples, sound sets or audio *may not be repackaged in whole or in part* as audio samples, sound libraries or sound effects."
> 
> ...


You can't use single samples or single phrases as loops if that is how they come out of the VI. When I say loops, I'm thinking produced music made up of multiple samples arranged musically. This is where things can be a problem. Because there are products - such as Heavyocity's NOVO, that are made up of loops. So you make a 20 bar piece of music, for want of a better term, using a layered combination of these loops in a chord progression, add some percussion and FX, and you have a sellable piece of "music" that can be looped. Right?

If I can't do this, then why am I buying these libraries? I think the language in the terms is a little too broad. If you use a VI violin to write a solo piece that is all your own melody that maybe includes an open chromatic run, at what point are you violating the terms of agreement?

The lawyers make these things very broad, because even though they would probably never go after me for my piece, the option is there. I mean, I am watching someone like Guy Michelmore create a piece of music on YouTube using exposed notes. Or someone doing a walkthrough. I could download these videos, create an instrument from the single notes and put it out. Now, of course, I am breaking the EULA. But - I never bought the product. I just stole it from the video. Do they go after Guy as well? He technically made it possible for me to make my instrument. But if they go after Guy, it will make it less likely others will make videos showing how useful their products are, leading to less sales. They lose out on free advertising by stopping this. 

Of course the likelihood of anyone actually buying my crappy sounding instrument is probably minimal, so they probably wouldn't bother with me anyway.


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## zeddsdeadbaby (May 20, 2021)

gst98 said:


> Yes, that is what they wanted you to think.
> 
> They sort of say it here now - but not explicitly. It's very open to interpretation hence why many are confused, and they certainly didn't say anything when it launched.


I knew it! I always thought audio imperia was a scam!!! What a bunch of bs!!!


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## maxchristensenaudio (May 21, 2021)

@dzilizzi if anyone makes a library or instrument by ripping of audio from a video on youtube, then yes they should absolutely not be allowed to sell that product! Just because it's a public video does not mean anyone can do with the audio what they want.

Again: make music with libraries all you want but dont sell loops, samples, music making building blocks, whatever if you didn't make them with your original material. 
You are not just selling music at that point but a sound as well, but you had no hands in making that sound.

UNLESS you go to great lengths to manipulate and alter those sounds!
Then it's the same legal issue as with DJs.
Someone who just plays a record and after 3 minutes crossfades to a different record is NOT a Dj and should NOT be allowed to use that music if they didn't pay a license.
If a DJ, producer etc mangles up a sound beyond recognition then at that point it almost has nothing to do with the original material anymore.


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## ashX (May 21, 2021)

maxchristensenaudio said:


> @dzilizzi if anyone makes a library or instrument by ripping of audio from a video on youtube, then yes they should absolutely not be allowed to sell that product! Just because it's a public video does not mean anyone can do with the audio what they want.
> 
> Again: make music with libraries all you want but dont sell loops, samples, music making building blocks, whatever if you didn't make them with your original material.
> You are not just selling music at that point but a sound as well, but you had no hands in making that sound.
> ...


You can sell loops as long it is your own melody. The majority of loops on splice are made of VIs and sample libraries. Can't imagine how many times I heard keyscape piano loops on splice. You can't sell loops if they are produced by developers. But if you change them/mangle them till its not obvious, then I don't see any problem selling it (if you are not a big company)


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## Coke (May 21, 2021)

Most of those "sample labels" sold via distributor XYZ are one-man-shows, mostly kids.

They don't even own any hardware synths/drum machines but a lot of [illegally] downloaded sample packs from other "sample producers".

Then they go through all the packs and compile "new" packs with the best of those samples. This turns in a cycle since years. Everybody rips from everybody. In the past (90s) they need to own records to sample from, now they just collect samples from other sample "producers".

All those packs always come with "hundreds of carefully crafted drums from famous drum machines recorded via analogue equipment" bla bla bla

I mean just read this carefully (from the website of a sample producer): *"The creator [deleted] spend a long time creating and collecting only the best sounds for this huge samplepack."*

Ah... collecting  But from which sources?!?  "Personal collection"? 

So if you really hand-craft new sounds from scratch you are THE IDIOT in this game because your pack will be soon on all illegal warez sites and the "sample producers" don't even need to buy your pack to "collect" their sounds from 

I stopped buying sample packs because most of them are garbage and contain many uncleared samples (if you are a little bit familiar in the dance genre you immediately recognize them).

Also 95% of the creators are from all over the world, staying' anonymous and don't even have a name or contact address on their website. So if you got problems with a released song and "their" (stolen) samples then you are lost...


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## VSriHarsha (May 21, 2021)

Speaking of piracy, look who’s back! It’s Muze !

AudioPluginDeals is offering some Dionysus ? Pianos by Muze, for Kontakt & for free.
It’s mentioned that it has C. Bechstein Piano. I just don’t understand.

Won’t they ask Muze about how it was sampled or some other thing?


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## jcrosby (May 21, 2021)

Voider said:


> There is no copy protection with Kontakt as well. Nobody's gonna stop you from rendering everything out you want, the way you want.


Someone pirating software is not going to solo and export 40,000+ samples from something like a string library. How does that person then go about isolating the individual samples that make up a legato patch, like the sustained samples vs transitions? Not to mention that one of kontakt's own features makes it far more effortless than this if the library isn't a player library. My point is that a library locked to NA at least has _some_ level of CP vs a non-player library:

A non-player library can be ripped simply by re-saving the patch and ticking export audio. Anyone who's used kontakt to make custom sample patches knows this as it allows you to create your own instruments that have a discrete sample pool that can be moved to a secondary machine. Non-player libraries can also be compressed to ncw to save disk space if the library shipped with uncompressed wavs. Before big drives were dirt cheap this gave Kontakt some added appeal.

Player libraries however do not allow this, the samples are locked to the kontakt engine. So there is some level of security that comes with a patch locked to NA vs one that isn't. That said you're specifically referring to converting something to audio which wasn't my point at all.


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## dzilizzi (May 21, 2021)

maxchristensenaudio said:


> @dzilizzi if anyone makes a library or instrument by ripping of audio from a video on youtube, then yes they should absolutely not be allowed to sell that product! Just because it's a public video does not mean anyone can do with the audio what they want.
> 
> Again: make music with libraries all you want but dont sell loops, samples, music making building blocks, whatever if you didn't make them with your original material.
> You are not just selling music at that point but a sound as well, but you had no hands in making that sound.
> ...


I'm going to quit discussing this with you. I think you are totally misunderstanding everything I say. Otherwise, I hope all your music is made with real instruments.


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## Voider (May 22, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> Someone pirating software is not going to solo and export 40,000+ samples from something like a string library. How does that person then go about isolating the individual samples that make up a legato patch, like the sustained samples vs transitions?


Who said that you copy the product 1:1 with every single note being rendered out? It's about stealing samples and creating a product from it. I could take any string library and create a product with 100+ loops in a month, varying from normal melodic and harmonic phrases up to motifs, special effects and post processed stuff in various keys and BPMs. Heavyocity is the living proof that musicians love that stuff.

And just for the casual pirate who is just an user and not a creator, Kontakt still doesn't grant any protection in full version. All the big sample libraries from major companies are out there pirated in the web, ready to be downloaded and usable.


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## jcrosby (May 22, 2021)

Voider said:


> Who said that you copy the product 1:1 with every single note being rendered out? It's about stealing samples and creating a product from it. I could take any string library and create a product with 100+ loops in a month, varying from normal melodic and harmonic phrases up to motifs, special effects and post processed stuff in various keys and BPMs. Heavyocity is the living proof that musicians love that stuff.
> 
> And just for the casual pirate who is just an user and not a creator, Kontakt still doesn't grant any protection in full version. All the big sample libraries from major companies are out there pirated in the web, ready to be downloaded and usable.


Sure that's possible for sure. But those rules apply to most software instruments, not just Kontakt. Some software synths don't permit you to sell audio files of presets, but I'd be surprised if places like Loopmasters aren't already filled with tons of loop packs that contain exactly that...

And, as someone else said already, that's really an issue of plagiarism. Piracy AFAIC has a specific definition, distributing a 1:1 copy of commercial software or free against the developers will, and which typically survives based on a demand from people who never intended to pay for the product in the 1st place. While it's similar to plagiarism, in piracy no one typically claims the pirated software is their own 'work', instead it's well documented that it's cracked or stolen. So basically I don't disagree at all, but I personally consider your scenario as plagiarism since you specifically mention hypothetically 'creating a product' from it...

That isn't what I was getting at in my post though, my reply was just in response to someone who was wondering why AI removed some of their old non-player libraries. Since These were replaced by player libraries my hunch was that perhaps it's related to copy protection. But reading Marc's (from BW's) reply I think he's probably closer to the reasoning behind my original point... Player libraries don't require Kontakt full which immediately means they can appeal to a broader range of customers who can use Kontakt player without having to buy Kontakt full.


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## Voider (May 23, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> And, as someone else said already, that's really an issue of plagiarism. Piracy AFAIC has a specific definition, distributing a 1:1 copy of commercial software or free against the developers will


That's exactly what is happening out there, like I said every major companies products are cracked avaiable on the web on several huge illegal audio platforms, Kontakt didn't prevent them from doing that. Even Kontakt comes cracked with it.



jcrosby said:


> Player libraries don't require Kontakt full which immediately means they can appeal to a broader range of customers who can use Kontakt player without having to buy Kontakt full.


Yes, this is the main reason,
on the other hand a developer has to pay more to release a Kontakt Player product than a Full Kontakt product because NI charges more for the license, which makes it harder for smaller companies with fewer budget to offer Player versions.


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## jcrosby (May 23, 2021)

Voider said:


> That's exactly what is happening out there, like I said every major companies products are cracked avaiable on the web on several huge illegal audio platforms, Kontakt didn't prevent them from doing that. Even Kontakt comes cracked with it.
> 
> 
> Yes, this is the main reason,
> on the other hand a developer has to pay more to release a Kontakt Player product than a Full Kontakt product because NI charges more for the license, which makes it harder for smaller companies with fewer budget to offer Player versions.


Of definitely. Software has been cracked for as long as the web has been around. That was me offering a possible explanation as to why AI in particular may have chosen to move some libraries to Player, but as I mentioned I think Marc was probably more accurate. I think it's about a wider market...

And for sure, NI charges incredibly high prices for encrypting a developer's library. East West left Kontakt behind years ago as a result of the cost, and it is a shame that it excludes smaller developers. OOTH I'd imagine it increases sales if a developer finds the right product. AI have grown pretty substantially since starting to offer player libraries, so it would seem that while expensive it's paid off for them...


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## Mike Greene (May 23, 2021)

It's a misconception that all software is cracked. Certainly a lot is, but not all. Maybe not even most, especially iLok protected apps.

Even sample libraries, which merely require uploading as opposed to actual "cracking," are often not available on torrent sites. My last three releases (Screaming Trumpet, Hip Hop Creator, and Sunset Strings) aren't pirated, for instance. (Knock on wood.) And for our other products, like RealiDrums, it's amusing to see people complain on the sites that only version 1.0 is uploaded, which has few of the features of V2.3. Granted, Realitone isn't Spitfire or OT, but when I started digging into this a while back, I was pleasantly surprised that a large percentage of their products weren't uploaded, either.

It's also worth noting that NI doesn't charge that much anymore. It was very expensive when EW was with them, which was a major incentive for them to develop their own player, but they've lowered their prices a lot since then. It's now $1k to encode a library, then somewhere between 1.5% and 9% of list price per license, depending on quantity and list price. (The pricing is here.) Rates for my libraries are usually between 2% and 3%, so for me, the bigger drawback is the hassle of all the NKS requirements, rather than the expense.


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## Voider (May 24, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> It's a misconception that all software is cracked. Certainly a lot is, but not all. Maybe not even most, especially iLok protected apps.


iLok protected apps exist on those sites like everything else, they're no exception. The only thing that determines whether you'll find a plugin or not is if there is enough interest by the community (_often they do requests with votes_) or by the ones who crack them.



Mike Greene said:


> Even sample libraries, which merely require uploading as opposed to actual "cracking," are often not available on torrent sites.


Torrent hasn't been relevant anymore since around 2010 for the "professionals" in this kind of business, because it doesn't make you money. They use filehosters so they can run ads between the links, offer affiliate links for filehoster memberships and even offer premium / VIP areas on their websites to get something out of it, the times of just releasing a cracked plugin for fun on torrent are long gone.


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## Mike Greene (May 24, 2021)

Voider said:


> iLok protected apps exist on those sites like everything else, they're no exception. The only thing that determines whether you'll find a plugin or not is if there is enough interest by the community (_often they do requests with votes_) or by the ones who crack them.


You do love to argue...

There are _some_ iLok apps that are usable under _some_ conditions, but it's definitely not open season on iLok. East West's Orchestra (the PLAY version) has 937 votes on a popular torrent site, yet it doesn't seem to have been filled. So ... how many more votes does a product need? Shouldn't all PLAY libraries be available to all now?

Now, it may be possible that I'm not looking in the _right_ places. (Although I doubt that. This is my business, so I know the usual sites pretty well, and I even pay for memberships to some of the private ones.) But if there is some super duper secret place out there, where you can really get all the iLok plugins you'd ever want for free (besides the partial hack 4 years ago that's Windows only, and only covers some plugins, and for which Google searches mostly give pages of people asking for advice because they can't get it to work), then that super duper secret place is so hard to find that it's irrelevant.



Voider said:


> Torrent hasn't been relevant anymore since around 2010 for the "professionals" in this kind of business, because it doesn't make you money. They use filehosters so they can run ads between the links, offer affiliate links for filehoster memberships and even offer premium / VIP areas on their websites to get something out of it, the times of just releasing a cracked plugin for fun on torrent are long gone.


~sigh~ The tedium ... the tedium ...

"Torrent" is a universally used term. Like "tape." When someone has something "on tape," there's a general understanding that they don't literally mean a VHS tape, and nobody wants to hear annoying corrections that _"Tape hasn't been relevant for decades!"_

Regarding the business model you describe, that has no relevance to whether something gets hacked. The person who cracks a plugin, or uploads a pirated copy, isn't the one making money. (For obvious reasons.) The motivating factor is a sad need to feel important. To bask in the glory of all the _"Thanks TeamDouche!"_ responses. Fortunately (for developers), it's ultimately not a very satisfying reward (the _"Thanks!"_ posts end pretty quickly), so these teams (or whatever term you're about to tediously correct me with) don't stay in the game long.


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## Tralen (May 24, 2021)

Voider said:


> Torrent hasn't been relevant anymore since around 2010 for the "professionals" in this kind of business, because it doesn't make you money. They use filehosters so they can run ads between the links, offer affiliate links for filehoster memberships and even offer premium / VIP areas on their websites to get something out of it, the times of just releasing a cracked plugin for fun on torrent are long gone.


Well, private trackers are still very relevant, in conjunction with filehosting.


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## ashX (May 24, 2021)

I remember pirates got access to Damage2 earlier than real customers just because it was uploaded on NI servers or something. I noticed Kontakt player libraries get cracked quicker than others tho because of that.
But I dont think it's a big problem for such companies. They should focus on customers who can pay money and work with them. Pirates are not their audience, they are people with no money and no intention to buy.


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## robgb (Jul 26, 2021)

VSriHarsha said:


> Speaking of piracy, look who’s back! It’s Muze !


Is Muze a pirate site? I just had a look at their website and it looks pretty legit. How can you tell?


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## Jdiggity1 (Jul 26, 2021)

robgb said:


> Is Muze a pirate site? I just had a look at their website and it looks pretty legit. How can you tell?


It is hard to know with 100% certainty, but I personally suspect they are, yes.
They don't provide enough information to earn my confidence in their company or product.
I remember when they kind of showed up out of nowhere (with a fill-in-the-blanks web template almost identical to other dodgy sites that have shown up in the past) and yet straight away had a sizable catalog of instruments, many of which involved what would normally be large-scale orchestral sampling sessions such as string ensembles, solo strings, woodwinds, brass, *16* different pianos, etc. And yet there were often zero details given about how or where they were recorded, and no audio demos.
I think the site has been fleshed out a little more now than when I first saw it (maybe since AudioPluginDeals adopted them into their shop - a very questionable move) but it is fluffed up with stock imagery and copy-paste text chunks, sometimes without making much sense. There is nothing "real" or original we can glean from the marketing. The scope of products indicate an enormous investment has been made into the production of these libraries, but the front-end has very little to show of that.
None of the libraries have a unique articulation to indicate it might be original.
Large 60-piece string ensemble recorded with the finest orchestral musicians.... for $19? Not to mention every other product being abnormally underpriced for what they claim to be.

Whichever way _I_ look at it.... I'm either seeing a well-dressed scam, or a legit company repackaging their old scraps and rebranding them.


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## VSriHarsha (Jul 26, 2021)

robgb said:


> Is Muze a pirate site? I just had a look at their website and it looks pretty legit. How can you tell?


It is. Have you heard of the Sonex Audio? They just renamed it. What @Jdiggity1 said is absolutely right.


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## bill5 (Jul 27, 2021)

Voider said:


> Torrent hasn't been relevant anymore since around 2010 for the "professionals" in this kind of business, because it doesn't make you money.


I can't speak to "professionals" (whatever that means), but as a rehabilitated pirate (and someone who recently checked out of curiosity) I can attest that at a lot of stuff is easily available via torrent sites yet.


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## Voider (Jul 27, 2021)

bill5 said:


> I can't speak to "professionals" (whatever that means), but as a rehabilitated pirate (and someone who recently checked out of curiosity) I can attest that at a lot of stuff is easily available via torrent sites yet.


Yeah my quote isn't to be taken literally, of course Torrent is still used, but from my experience, very, very minor in comparison to filehosters and I was referring specifically to people who make money out of that.

I do sell different digital products that I've created over the past years and I have tools to actually find out where my products are distributed / offered illegally. 19 out of 20 links on sites I find are filehosters, 1 of 20 is torrent. That's the ratio between both that I've experienced.

And most recently more often they make those filehoster files only avaiable for people who have a premium account at that filehoster, so if someone buys into one month through one of their links, they make money. There's even a pirate site that offers their own VIP section which is only accessible for premium members who pay to be a member on that pirate site, and only after that, they can find filehoster links which - in this case - can't be found publicly via google.


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## bill5 (Jul 27, 2021)

oy. It amazes me that stuff even exists.


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## Coke (Jul 28, 2021)

Just an example:









HQ DRUMS: Future Rave


<div>'HQ Drums: Future Rave' is a brand new series which brings high quality samples for Future Rave & Big Room genres. It is a comprehensive production tool to help you get into the genres or give you an extra edge in the field. This collection brings you painstakingly designed, punchy and...




vandalism-sounds.com





"This collection brings you painstakingly designed, punchy and unique drums."

Ok no "piracy" but the snares for example are mostly 909 ones. The snares could also be from an old Vengeance pack 10 years ago. NOTHING "new" here. But the genre "Future Rave" is trendy and so they release some "special designed" drums for it.

It's just recycling of the already recycled stuff. That's why i don't buy sample packs anymore.


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## Braveheart (Aug 5, 2021)

Muze products are now also in Pluginboutique:






Buy Muze VST Plugins, Muze Instruments and Effects, Download Online,


Buy Muze VST Plugins, Muze Instruments and Effects, Download Online, Muze Free Demo Plugins from Pluginboutique.com




www.pluginboutique.com


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