# Composing on a Laptop - Internal Soundcard or External Audio Interface?



## Scamper (Jan 27, 2022)

I'm interested in getting a mobile setup for composition and music production, but am not yet sure how it's best done.
What I'm curious about is the soundcard and ASIO drivers for laptops.
How do you guys do it?

Are the internal soundcards resonably usable in quality and latency with ASIO4ALL?
Do you always use an external audio interface that you have to lug around?

I'll probably get a Windows laptop like a Dell XPS, but MacBooks seem to be great for audio production. Can you get away with the internal soundcard on a Mac, but not on a Windows laptop?


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## jcrosby (Jan 27, 2022)

Scamper said:


> I'm interested in getting a mobile setup for composition and music production, but am not yet sure how it's best done.
> What I'm curious about is the soundcard and ASIO drivers for laptops.
> How do you guys do it?
> 
> ...


I use the internal sound on my macbook all the time. (I've also used MB's as portable machines for 15 years). The level is a bit quiet compared to a proper interface if I wanted to patch it into my monitor controller, but that's about it. The level isn't necessarily an issue either, for headphones it's totally fine, especially now that the M1 Max/Pro can do high impedance... 

Can't speak on Windows laptops (but imagine they're fine), on a MB the drivers are solid and latency can go pretty low.

Short version is I've never had an issue using the internal audio on mine (and previous ones). If you're recording then obviously that's another story, but for playback it's fine...


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## rgames (Jan 27, 2022)

I use the internal sound on my Dell laptop all the time and it's perfectly fine. I don't use ASIO4All, just the generic ASIO driver, and it runs at 20 ms. That's on the high side but it's perfectly workable.

I haven't looked at Mac vs. PC for laptops in the last few years but the big difference a few years ago was internal storage. I have 6 GB internal in my Dell and you couldn't do that in a Mac back when I got my current Dell, you had to carry external drives (which defeats the purpose of a portable setup for audio use...).

rgames


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## khollister (Jan 28, 2022)

On my M1Max 16" MBP. the internal audio is about 2ms worse output latency (5.8ms vs 3.7ms @ 48k, 128 buffer) compared to my Apollo's (X8 or Solo). The output level with my Oppo PM-3's doesn't seem a lot hotter than with my older MBP's. I was going to try my Sennheiser HD-650's before posting this but can't seem to locate a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter (have plenty of 1/8 to 1/4 of course). Amazon is fixing that so I'll see how the big Sennheisers do and report back.

The Oppo PM-3s are fantastic closed back planar headphones, but Oppo bailed on all consumer audio/video production a few years ago and they are no longer available.


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## rrichard63 (Jan 28, 2022)

I think the answer depends a lot on speakers versus headphones. If you are willing to lug powered speakers around with you, you are less likely to want an audio interface. If you use headphones, you are more likely to want an interface. The audio outputs on laptops aren't really designed for anything more than earbuds.

A bus-powered interface for decent headphones can be as small and light as (just one example) this one:






IK Multimedia - iRig Pro I/O


Universal ultra-compact audio/MIDI interface for iPhone, iPad, Android and Mac/PC




www.ikmultimedia.com





The answer also depends on your desire for audio fidelity. Aside from the power and impedance requirements of headphones, the most important benefit of an external interface is moving the digital-to-audio conversion away from all of the interference bouncing around inside your laptop; the converter chip itself isn't necessarily a lot better. Unless you are recording live, I think audio quality is more important than latency.


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## chillbot (Jan 28, 2022)

These answers both confuse and surprise me so I must be way out of touch (I am). Every time I have tried to use onboard audio on any laptop has been a disaster. Glad to hear that this situation is improving. However you can get a Scarlett 2i2 for $150 USD or so which is not very much in comparison to the price of a laptop and will give you solid everything including latency and dropouts and clicks/pops.. not sure why you'd skimp on the most important part (in my opinion) of a DAW.


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## khollister (Jan 28, 2022)

chillbot said:


> These answers both confuse and surprise me so I must be way out of touch (I am). Every time I have tried to use onboard audio on any laptop has been a disaster. Glad to hear that this situation is improving. However you can get a Scarlett 2i2 for $150 USD or so which is not very much in comparison to the price of a laptop and will give you solid everything including latency and dropouts and clicks/pops.. not sure why you'd skimp on the most important part (in my opinion) of a DAW.


The attraction of internal audio for mobile use isn't the cost savings but clutter reduction


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## chillbot (Jan 28, 2022)

khollister said:


> The attraction of internal audio for mobile use isn't the cost savings but clutter reduction


Yeah I dunno I've taken my little focusrite all over the world and worked on planes, in the back of cabs, etc. Bus-powered and all. But like I said my attempts at using onboard audio have always been a no-go.


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## widescreen (Jan 28, 2022)

I attach a Native Instruments Traktor Audio 2 on my 13" mobile studio. That has some advantages over the internal card AND holds the cable mess very small as it's just the size of a pack of cigarettes and only needs one USB cable (but you CAN attach a power supply to get more amp power). It has no inputs, but I do not need that on the road.
It makes me able to fully use ASIO and the power for headphones is fair enough for my DT-880 Pro (250 ohm) in most situations.
If I don't like to use headphones I direct-attach a Canton Musicbox XS which is a good compromise between sound quality and portability. Works also good as Bluetooth speaker without the interface, when I only like to listen to music.






Native Instruments







www.native-instruments.com












musicbox XS


Mit der neuen Canton musicbox S + XS gibt es tragbaren Spitzenklang gleich in zwei Größen. Dabei ist die musicbox XS die kompakte und…




www.canton.de


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## khollister (Jan 28, 2022)

Just received the 1/4 -> 1/8 adapters. My HD-650's are plenty loud and then some(with the MBP volume all the way up) - huge difference from previous laptops. Sounds really good


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## dzilizzi (Jan 28, 2022)

Generally, it depends on your DAW and PC vs Mac. Core audio on Mac doesn't normally need an interface even with ProTools, which is an extremely fussy DAW in my experience. PC on the other hand, has crappy audio drivers and ASIO4ALL works only okay. I have an old mbox micro that plugs into a USB port and only takes headphones but is perfect for travel. That is what I use. 

I haven't really tried it with my newest laptop. it has enough CPU and RAM that might make up for no audio interface. I got it right before COVID hit and work travel ground to a halt. I need to pull it out now we are starting to travel again.


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## rgames (Jan 28, 2022)

chillbot said:


> Yeah I dunno I've taken my little focusrite all over the world and worked on planes, in the back of cabs, etc. Bus-powered and all. But like I said my attempts at using onboard audio have always been a no-go.


No-go from what standpoint? Sound quality? Yeah, a dedicated interface is better but it's fine for composing in a hotel. But in a plane or cab I'm guessing the audio interface is a minor factor in determining the quality of your listening environment 

rgames


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## Scamper (Jan 28, 2022)

Very useful to hear all your experiences.



jcrosby said:


> Short version is I've never had an issue using the internal audio on mine (and previous ones). If you're recording then obviously that's another story, but for playback it's fine...


If we're talking about recording MIDI, then yes. That's what I'm planning to do.
I'm not THAT fussy about latency thought and could also get by with 25ms for each input and output latency.



rgames said:


> I use the internal sound on my Dell laptop all the time and it's perfectly fine. I don't use ASIO4All, just the generic ASIO driver, and it runs at 20 ms. That's on the high side but it's perfectly workable.


Great to also hear about a Windows laptop running just fine with onboard audio, even if MacBooks seem to be the more solid option. 20ms sounds just fine, too.



rrichard63 said:


> A bus-powered interface for decent headphones can be as small and light as (just one example) this one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good points. I'll definitely use headphones and if the power and sounds quality isn't good enough, this interface seems just great, seeing how tiny it is.
In general, I'm also thinking when going mobile, I'd rather not lug around a typical audio interface like my Komplete Audio 6 or the Scarlet 2i2, even if they are relatively small. No issue with the iRig Pro though.



widescreen said:


> I attach a Native Instruments Traktor Audio 2 on my 13" mobile studio. That has some advantages over the internal card AND holds the cable mess very small as it's just the size of a pack of cigarettes and only needs one USB cable (but you CAN attach a power supply to get more amp power). It has no inputs, but I do not need that on the road.


Also great recommendations. It looks like the Traktor Audio 2 is hard to find though, since it's not officially available anymore.


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## chillbot (Jan 28, 2022)

rgames said:


> No-go from what standpoint?


No-go as in constant audio dropouts.


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## rrichard63 (Jan 28, 2022)

Scamper said:


> It looks like the Traktor Audio 2 is hard to find though, since it's not officially available anymore.


It's still listed on the NI website:






Native Instruments







www.native-instruments.com





I recommended the iRig Pro I/O instead because I was afraid the DJ-specific features of the Traktor Audio might just get in the way and thought the microphone input might prove useful even though you say you don't need it.


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## Saxer (Jan 28, 2022)

I think it mainly depends where you want to work. In a train it's good enough with a headphone directly connected. Everything else would ad hassle and suck battery power.
If you go on composing vacation in a nice cabin or hotel with table and some space use whatever works best... interface, controller, speaker...


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## Henu (Jan 29, 2022)

rgames said:


> I use the internal sound on my Dell laptop all the time and it's perfectly fine. I don't use ASIO4All, just the generic ASIO driver, and it runs at 20 ms. That's on the high side but it's perfectly workable.


Same here, except for that my laptop is Asus. I didn't have high hopes when I tried it out for fun... but was completely blown away with a 15 ms latency just using the generic driver.


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## mybadmemory (Jan 29, 2022)

On a Mac you can definitely get away without an interface. I don’t even use one for my desktop Mac anymore.


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## Al Maurice (Jan 29, 2022)

I found that on a PC, something like Steinberg's low latency driver works quite well when you don't wnat to use your audio interface.


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## Scamper (Jan 29, 2022)

rrichard63 said:


> It's still listed on the NI website:


It is listed there, but I don't see any way to buy it - same on other shops. The output for speakers seems useful to have, but the mic input on the iRig Pro could come in handy as well.



Saxer said:


> I think it mainly depends where you want to work. In a train it's good enough with a headphone directly connected. Everything else would ad hassle and suck battery power.
> If you go on composing vacation in a nice cabin or hotel with table and some space use whatever works best... interface, controller, speaker...


Right, makes sense that way. For me, it will be a mixture of the train and hotel situation. In any case, I will be using a small MIDI controller, that I still have to choose. I'm fine with just headphones though.



Henu said:


> Same here, except for that my laptop is Asus. I didn't have high hopes when I tried it out for fun... but was completely blown away with a 15 ms latency just using the generic driver.


That's real good. About the same latency I use on my main system, even though with high buffer rate.



Al Maurice said:


> I found that on a PC, something like Steinberg's low latency driver works quite well when you don't wnat to use your audio interface.


Great to hear. Since I'm using Cubase, I'll have that available to try anyways.


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## Emanuel Fróes (Mar 27, 2022)

i


Scamper said:


> I'm interested in getting a mobile setup for composition and music production, but am not yet sure how it's best done.
> What I'm curious about is the soundcard and ASIO drivers for laptops.
> How do you guys do it?
> 
> ...


Since you are going from zero, I would research if you need apps made exclusively for PC or if you want to use them on mac. Otherwise i would go to MAc and Logic Pro at any cost. WIth a good used iphone/ipad and a good used Mac you can already have the feeling of competence from start on... I can´t discriminate PC´s totally, but i guess PC´s require that the user knows all about computer parts and does his own work as a nerd. But i don´t have time for this, and the first impressions are my criteria in this issue, unless money start to call for an urgent alternative.

Imagine that "one day" you have all the money to buy a super computer, and now you know it will be very probably a MAC, so it is better to start with the Mac environment, no? Cubase there is also on MAc as a possibility , but Logic Pro is never on PC (sofar I know)

Meanwhile, do not understimate the power of paper, network with musicians, and good caligraphy 




www.emanuelmagalhaesfroes.com


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## aeliron (Mar 27, 2022)

rrichard63 said:


> I think the answer depends a lot on speakers versus headphones. If you are willing to lug powered speakers around with you, you are less likely to want an audio interface. If you use headphones, you are more likely to want an interface. The audio outputs on laptops aren't really designed for anything more than earbuds.
> 
> A bus-powered interface for decent headphones can be as small and light as (just one example) this one:
> 
> ...


Note, though, that the MacBooks can drive high impedance headphones. Maybe even more than an audio interface, depending which one.


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## colony nofi (Mar 27, 2022)

New 16MBP is the first laptop I've been comfy with using headphones without an interface - when needed. I know a couple name composers who have been doing it since even 2018... I would have tried but my 2018 MBP came with something broken INSIDE the headphone port, and apple couldn't fix it fast enough, and I never got round to getting it sorted... so I couldn't try.

It works remarkably well. Yes to planes (hey, I even use noise cancellation on planes... wouldn't MIX that way, but its great for sketching ideas). Yes to trains and even in a hotel room when unpacking gear is just that little bit much. I travel with RME baby-faces (except when needing to work on dante projectes) and I still prefer it. I use AKG 271 (I know!) a lot, but more recently OLLO open backs. For a while I carried Audeze LCD-X's, but they took up too much luggage space - and now I only would take them if i needed to do critical mixing. I also often bring 8110's (had them for years and trashed them but they're still going strong) and more recently Neumann KH80's when on the road. Small enough / not too heavy - super great for composing / basic mix decisions. 

Another option are some of the hifi USB-C headphone DACS. I normally shy away from hifi gear as its often priced much higher than what I need - and I don't need stuff to look "cool" - but there's a couple adaptors running round the place for not too many Benjamins which really do an incredible job of driving cans.


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## marius_dm (Mar 28, 2022)

In my experience, you can get away without an interface on a Mac laptop but not on Windows laptops. Again, just my experience.


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## hlecedre (Mar 28, 2022)

Desktop and external D/A converter all the way. Exception is only if traveling or performing live will I use my laptop rig. But I always (studio and live performing) use an external D/A converter.

Also, this all depends on you and your goals. Are you a hobbyist? Or a professional in music? If you're just a hobbyist then a laptop with 32GB of RAM and a $100-$500 D/A converter would be fine. However, if you're a pro, then you probably wouldn't be happy with less than something such as a Lynx D/A converter paired up with a 12 core Xeon server with 192 GB of RAM and 3 or more monitors.

Personally, I wouldn't rely on any internal D/A converters. Being an electrical engineer myself, I know that D/A converters are not designed nor made equally...especially built in ones. And, especially when using a great pair of headphones, you can noticeably hear the difference between a great external D/A converter and a built in D/A. I believe the issue with some regarding this matter is they haven't really ever A/B'd this comparison to provide real life input on this.


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## Trash Panda (Mar 28, 2022)

rgames said:


> I use the internal sound on my Dell laptop all the time and it's perfectly fine. I don't use ASIO4All, just the generic ASIO driver, and it runs at 20 ms. That's on the high side but it's perfectly workable.


Do you mean the generic sound driver, like Windows Audio/WASAPI or is there a generic ASIO driver for laptops running RealTek audio chips?


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