# Your thoughts on the recent Refugee situation



## G.R. Baumann (Sep 16, 2015)

My thoughts:

Between the Late Antiquity and the Italian Renaissance was the period of the "dark ages" and the downfall of the roman empire. It was also the period of the great migration in the early middle ages. - Of course, historians still are in dispute when what age really started and so on, personally I am not interested in that. The above timeline is known and somewhat valid. Whether EMA lasted until 1000 or 1050 makes no difference to me. -

I think it is a good idea to refresh our knowledge about the great migrations, how they occured, and what they triggered.

I am of the opinion that we could describe our current period as neo-feudalism, with the emergence of a the oligarchic financial structures and the enforced decline of democracy in the western world it has a lot of feudalistic flavours already.

Today we have around 60 million people on the move globally. (I am not sure whether internally displaced people are counted there as well)

I imagine the number of refugees significantly higher if/when ecological catastrophes strikes.

What I observed in the last few weeks happening in Europe is rather disturbing. Then again, I am not astonished by the reactions of the establishment in Europe, not in the least. It is rather ridiculous, and might just be another milestone on the complete failure of the European idea. Time will tell.

In the county of NRW in Germany (North Rhine Westfalia) 90% of the refugees that arrive are not screened for infectious diseases on arrival. However, they are from high risk countries where tuberculosis and others major diseases are of concern.

Personally I can only shake my head in disbelief at this.

Politicos in Brussels are bickering and staring at spreadsheets with cost numbers. Utterly disgusting.


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## Baron Greuner (Sep 16, 2015)

Angela Merkel would be my thought. Period.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 16, 2015)

Any even remotely workable way to deal with this human crisis would have to start with a united human race, which, sadly, we do not have.


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## FriFlo (Sep 16, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Any even remotely workable way to deal with this human crisis would have to start with a united human race, which, sadly, we do not have.


Yes, but - as you said - we unfortunately don't have it. For starters, it would be a great idea to make the UN to an organisation it should be. Instead it is another puppet of the oligarchs in this world, the 0.1% (rather even less) of the worlds population controling all of our fate. 
On the other hand, every human being tends to be rather centered on his or her own motives. You always find great numbers of people applauding on great ideas, like currently the "German Welcome Culture". There might even be a lot of people in those rich nations, that have a feeling of emptiness and helplesness. Those people commit time in helping some refugees unpaid and/or spending money in welfare. Don't get me wrong, that is a good thing, even though it will not change the world alone!
But once it comes to organising global solutions to all of the crises we face, they either don't understand or are not willing to sacrifice some of their so called priviliges. One little example: Everybody should know by now, that (at least in big cities) the car is NOT the way of travel for the future. I will not mention the reasons for that fact, as they should be pretty obvious by now. 
Yet, when you try to take measures to reduce the number of cars in any German city, you would immediately face a shit storm from so many people, that as a politician you might as well resign from office! Kopenhagen, to my knowledge, ist the only major city in the world, where the people have understood that and made the bicycle and public transportation the main way of traveling. And you cannot simply excuse that with big companies (oil, cars) blocking attempts like that with lobbyism! Kopenhagen prooves, it is possible! So, it is the people themselves, that are to brain-whashed, ignorant and self-centered to allow this kind of major change.


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## chimuelo (Sep 16, 2015)

United Human Race........thats awesome Larry.
Great name for a band.
As good as the Well Hungarians.

On a more serious note I am glad to see Germanys act of kindness.
Needs more vetting though.
We are always reminded about our evil white ancestors that killed every Indian they saw.
True. But it was the disease they carried from Europe that did the majority of deaths.
Same with evil ancestors of Central and South Americans where entire civilizations vanished.

Germans always rise for a challenge. We need to see them lead the way before more of those Huns kicking children stsrt getting cheered on.

At the end of the day the man causing this is still in power because the West failed to stand by its principals.
You must go all the way. Picking and choosing which piece of shit you will remove must mean all of them or none.


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## chimuelo (Sep 16, 2015)

I would love to live in a bicycle city.
I have a Cogburn off road bike with huge tires.
No bike paths here. People will run you over.
But my legs are like tree trunks from riding in the creeks and hills here.


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## FriFlo (Sep 16, 2015)

chimuelo said:


> I would love to live in a bicycle city.
> I have a Cogburn off road bike with huge tires.
> No bike paths here. People will run you over.
> But my legs are like tree trunks from riding in the creeks and hills here.


Yeah, the US are probably the worst example for alternative transportation there is! In the US you are pretty much unable to attend anything without a car, unless you live in one of the few cities with a decent subway system. Even more work to be done, than in Europe ... But all of this will not matter, unless the majority of the population understands the mess we are up against! Anyway, I didn't want to go OT ... just should be an example, why I think we deserve all that mess! Back to refugees ...


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## G.R. Baumann (Sep 16, 2015)

http://www.unhcr.org.uk/about-us/key-facts-and-figures.html


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## chimuelo (Sep 16, 2015)

I hate to sound like a Miss Universe contestant, but I really wanted to see world peace, thought Obama was the man, actually he was, the Libya stint showed even our President has to answer to the real rulers.
But he has drawn down our armed forces, and sadly I have to agree with the bad cops that his kindness and sincerity was mistaken for weakness.
His policies sadly have led to this unintentionally, as well as an unprepared Europe Union.

My heart goes out to Merkel for trying her best to accommodate these refugees.
It's these kind of immigrants that can make a nation strong through their sheer gratitude.
I don't think ISIS smuggled thousands in.
If they did, let the women stone them to death during half time at Soccer games.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 16, 2015)

chimuelo said:


> Germans always rise for a challenge. We need to see them lead the way before more of those Huns kicking children stsrt getting cheered on.



Really ? 

Sorry I know I shouldn't go anywhere near these subjects on this or any internet forum.

Oh! and my pet hate and probably one of the few I have in my life is tarring everyone in any state just because of the regime running that state.


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## gbar (Sep 16, 2015)

I think, unfortunately, there will be more and more of this sort of thing due to climate change, and it tends to bring out the worst in people rather than be best in people more often than not.

"policy makers and others have previously suggested that the drought played a role in the Syrian unrest, and the researchers addressed this as well, saying the drought “had a catalytic effect.” They cited studies that showed that the *extreme dryness, combined with other factors, including misguided agricultural and water-use policies of the Syrian government, caused crop failures that led to the migration of as many as 1.5 million people from rural to urban areas. This in turn added to social stresses that eventually resulted in the uprising against President Bashar al-Assad in March 2011.*

What began as civil war has since escalated into a multifaceted conflict, with at least 200,000 deaths. The United Nations estimates that half of the country’s 22 million people have been affected, with more than six million having been internally displaced".

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/03/s...to-drought-caused-by-climate-change.html?_r=0


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## G.R. Baumann (Sep 16, 2015)

What I find utterly ridiculous is the methodology they use to distrubute refugees between the counties in Germany. It is called the Königssteinerschlüssel and essentially is based on contracts dating back to - hold on to your butts - 1949!! You heard that right! It goes back to the days of the original german constitution.

It was about balancing financing between the various counties - which never really worked! - and is also used to calculate how many refuguees each county has to take on board.

Basically, it is all about tax income and registered citizens per county, and as a result North Rhine Westfalia has to put up with roughly 21.3% of all refugees, whereby Sachsen-Anhalt will take only 2.9% on board.

Yeah well, here just two additional facts:

NRW has 34.084 km², with round about 18 million people
Sachsen-Anhalt 20.446 km², with round about 2.3 million people.

Such and other relevant facts are not being taking into account at all.

It is the same sort of management that would be used for the distribution of refugees across Europe if all goes according to EU commission, but they do face strong resistance.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 16, 2015)

I know Merkel is getting a lot of pushback from all sides, but let me say this: I think in general, Germany has been heroic in its efforts so far. I hope the rest of Europe AND the rest of the world steps up, especially my own country.


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## G.R. Baumann (Sep 16, 2015)

Look, I know it may be hard to digest, but what is happening here in reality is rather sanctimonious! This is more a PR stunt of the establishment than anything else, and they use the attention to paint a certain picture. It is politics, and as nasty as usual.

Until now, Politicos did what? What they always do, procrastinate!

It is the many thousands of volunteers that are on the ground helping out, not the establishment, quite the contrary. The resources are stretched to the limit and this will not work much longer. The picture of the Do-Gooders applauding Refugees at the train stations on arrival is a PR stunt. Period.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 16, 2015)

Then change my assertion to "the German people who are out there volunteering." 

I know that limits have probably already been reached, and the world needs to step up.


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## Daryl (Sep 17, 2015)

There are so many facets to this problem that I don't know where to start. I certainly don't have an answer for Syria.

However, one of the big problems is that the EU border countries that are supposed to deal with Asylum seekers and refugees are all very poor. They have no chance in fulfilling their obligations under the Dublin Agreement. The other EU countries should be helping financially so that they can build proper refugee centres where the applications can be looked at in a timely manner whilst the people concerned are not living in appalling conditions.

The other question is the use of water cannon and tear gas and riot police. Whilst the UN makes noises about how shocking it all is, there are two further questions to consider:

The people are not fleeing. They have fled. In the case of the Hungarian border they are already in a safe country. Serbia. In fact some Serbians have been quite upset that they didn't want to stay in their country.
Forcibly breaking into a foreign country that has gone to the trouble of erecting a fence is never a good idea. It is all very well being horrified by the pictures of kids with tears streaming down their faces, but every country in the world has the right to protect it's border. There are points that the migrants can go to be registered for asylum consideration. They just choose not to use them.
So the big issue is what is the EU going to do to help both the migrants/refugees and the border countries? Currently the answer is precious little.

D


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## Daryl (Sep 17, 2015)

G.R. Baumann said:


> It is the many thousands of volunteers that are on the ground helping out, not the establishment, quite the contrary. The resources are stretched to the limit and this will not work much longer. The picture of the Do-Gooders applauding Refugees at the train stations on arrival is a PR stunt. Period.


Exactly. Imagine the resources available to the border countries who are all very poor. Pretty much zero.

D


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## G.R. Baumann (Sep 17, 2015)

Vultures already circle capitalist skies! Politicos!

Millions of german workers already trapped in precarious contracts working for peanuts, fulltime! Modern wage slavery!

The German Rural District Association representing all 295 dictricts demanded refugees to be excluded from the law on minimum wage per hour of Euro 8.50 for a limited time!

This represents the true mindset of the political class, working on behalf of vested capitalist interests. Citizens turned into voting fodder and human capital.

Further, the refugees coming to Germany will put considerable pressure on the rental property market that is ridiculously stretched, way over the limits. For a very basic appartment in one of the bigger cities, people cue up in lines of 50-100 to have a look at the place and leave their details with the agent.

Many thanks to the political establishment for stopping every investment in social housing since years, and on top selling all state owned properties to hedgefonds and investment hyenas. German Annington just made IPO!

Mama Merkel, yeah right! ROFLMAO ....Cluster-B ...I say no more!


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## NYC Composer (Sep 17, 2015)

G.R. my friend-I agree with many things you say, though I don't have any deep knowledge of Germany's politics or its oligarchic ruling class-we have enough of that in America to keep me busy forever.

That said, very few of us can do much on the macro level unless we start at a very young age and are intractable about achieving our goals. You often appear to be sounding the alarm- the sky is falling, yes? What shall we do to keep it from crushing the world? As far as I can see, most of what is able to be done by citizens of the world is small, direct humanitarian actions. It seems to me that the course of politics and world destiny (unless there is a major head chopping) will usually go on as it has.


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## chimuelo (Sep 17, 2015)

gbar said:


> I think, unfortunately, there will be more and more of this sort of thing due to climate change, and it tends to bring out the worst in people rather than be best in people more often than not.
> 
> "policy makers and others have previously suggested that the drought played a role in the Syrian unrest, and the researchers addressed this as well, saying the drought “had a catalytic effect.” They cited studies that showed that the *extreme dryness, combined with other factors, including misguided agricultural and water-use policies of the Syrian government, caused crop failures that led to the migration of as many as 1.5 million people from rural to urban areas. This in turn added to social stresses that eventually resulted in the uprising against President Bashar al-Assad in March 2011.*
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/03/s...to-drought-caused-by-climate-change.html?_r=0



Wonder how much money it cost to get that published...

Are women being turned into sex slaves because it's a little warmer than usual in the Euphrates Valley?
Why are Libyans and Egyptians fleeing in droves to Europe via Italy....suddenly decided that Sand is not conducive for Crops..?

Climate Change is the new cop out to replace ineffective leadership, and stupid interventionalist policies.
We invaded Libya without the peoples approval, Congress had no say, which basically means they are mad because they couldn't make extra money saying No.
But we watched European Tankers offloading Light Crude in the water, insured by the Swiss, while the State Department took as many weapons as they could find, sent them to Turkey gave these guns to Syrians.
WTF do you think is going to happen...?

Having said that, the same nations had to know a refugee crisis was coming. Jordan and Lebanon couldn't house and feed anymore.
The Middle East has been at war with itself for centuries. Regulating that warfare didn't work, so we split.

3 Religions all claiming their God is right vrs. Western Governments who have no faith other than themselves and their bull shit paranoia are causing this crap.
We should be grateful Merkel is helping France Britain and the USA clean up their fucking mess.

But I sympathize with the German people and do not blame them for taking a stance they do.
In the USA we import poverty and while it bothers us we too have to watch money and resources earned be redistributed as the redistributors profit from the crisis.

Global Warming my ass...


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## G.R. Baumann (Sep 17, 2015)

The chief of the German Federal Office for Migration and Refugees, Manfred Schmidt, resigned. ...For personal reasons of course.... go figure!


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## gbar (Sep 17, 2015)

chimuelo said:


> Wonder how much money it cost to get that published...
> 
> 
> Global Warming my ass...



What I don't hear in your rebuttal are facts. Facts. There was a long drought (still ongoing) in Syria. Fact, between 1 and 1.5 million people migrated to cities between 2006 and 2011, and that set the stage for civil unrest as the dispossessed farming families strained the system that was in place.

You can find other examples in history of previous climatic changes or mass migrations leading to civil unrest, and that's troubling because the trend of warming is baked-in to a large extent. Even if we stopped using fossil fuels completely today (something we cannot do without economies collapsing and people starving), it's going to get generally warmer, and sea levels will rise, and more and more people will be forced to migrate, and these migrations, historically, lead to social upheaval and do not bring out the best in folks.

If it strains a system to the point of civil war, then you see the horrors that can accompany the collapse of a civil society (and it doesn't help when your neighbors all support competing factions). But this all began with the collapse of the agricultural system in Syria, and then spiralled out from there.

And keep in mind, the entire region is facing stresses related to water right now. You have a growing population, and a climate that is worsening, and strained aquifers. It's not a recipe for utopia.

And it's not just there. Many of our aquifers in the US are strained (we've been taking more out faster than they are replenished for a long time now. Not just California and the Southwest either. The Midwest will face serious trouble by the end of the century at the rate things are going).

What we are doing isn't working and is not sustainable. There is such a thing as carrying-capacity for any closed system and given set of technological constraints. It is what it is.


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## chimuelo (Sep 17, 2015)

Sure. The poor people Assad pushes out into uninhabitable areas tried to make the desert bloom. They lack modern agricultural technology. Drought proof crops work great. 

Climate change has displaced civilizations for 1000s of years.
And will continue to do so. All of the UN chit chat about higher energy costs to alter the Eaths temperature is a false narrative.

If we were to step in as a nation and help these poor people with infrastructure and technology solutions they would be better off than redistributing the wealth in the form of weapons.

I stated opinion and facts. No need for me to parrot your facts which really belong to the seekers of truth and justice at the NYTimes.

Since they helped sway Americans into war in Iraq with their "facts" about WMDs I have little use for their filtered reports.

But yes I agree climate change is a part of history. To not prepare for it is a sign of neglect or ignorance.

Peace


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## gbar (Sep 17, 2015)

Meh, I have little respect left for the NYT, but you can find many academic papers by people who were actively studying the overlapping factors leading to social conflict in Syria. While it's easy to point to political movements, there has not been much printed in the media about a drought that is in its 9th year and the collapse of the water supply forcing migration of people, and the collapse of the agricultural sector there that really precipitated inevitable conflict.

And sure we could point to civil authorities and their lack of preparedness to deal with a rapidly worsening situation (e.g. the Asad regime), competing factions, etc, but we should probably look at our own house too if we are going to be pointing fingers, and we face challenges related to water supply ourselves that we either deal with to the best of our ability, or we wait for the subsequent displacement and collapse.

I really think water supply is under appreciated, and we treat it like a more-or-less infinite supply despite evidence to the contrary.
A lot of what we take for granted that is needed to support civil societies with large populations requires a stable supply of clean water.


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## gbar (Sep 17, 2015)

PS. Found this googling aquifers:

Today, Saudi Arabia’s agriculture is collapsing. It’s almost out of water. And the underlying cause doesn’t bode well for farmers in places like California’s Central Valley, where desert lands also are irrigated with groundwater that is increasingly in short supply.

Beginning in the late 1970s, Saudi landowners were given free rein to pump the aquifers so that they could transform the desert into irrigated fields. Saudi Arabia soon became one of the world’s premier wheat exporters.

By the 1990s, farmers were pumping an average of 5 trillion gallons a year. At that rate, it would take just 25 years to completely drain Lake Erie.

The Saudi government’s policy largely enriched the ruling elite and resulted in a near total depletion of its precious aquifers, Elhadj wrote.

“A combination of money and water could make even a desert bloom, until either the money or the water runs out,” Elhadj said. For Saudi Arabia, it was the water.

Now the water is nearly gone. Most of that underground water came from ancient aquifers that are deeply buried and don’t naturally refill for tens of thousands of years.

In the historic town of Tayma, which was built atop a desert oasis mentioned several times in the Old Testament, researchers in 2011 found “most wells exsiccated.” That’s academic speak for “bone dry.” The once-verdant Tayma oasis that had sustained human life for millennia – archaeologists have found stone tablets there dating back 2,500 years – was drained in one generation.


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## chimuelo (Sep 17, 2015)

Totally agree. 
I lived during a drought in Nevada that still goes on. 12 years but luckily Nevada has the most recent examples of modern infrastructure.
We as a community had 2 years to rock our yards and conserve our resources or rationing was the last choice. The people adapted.

Which brings me to another gripe about infrastructure.
Years ago I was in Osaka during Monsoon season and many parts of Asia and Japan were having terrible floods. Not so in Osaka or Tokyo.
They capture overflow and store it underground. Release billions of gallons over a period of time. Lasts them until the next Monsoon.
In the USA the Operating Engineers and Laborers have been pushing for national pipelines to pump water from flood seasons to wherever it's needed.
Total cost was projected at 320 billion.
We have spent 12 TR since 2009. Yet while the various wars on coal and air/water go on this project would have been pumping water to California.

When wealthy Alarmists and investors in the war on coal get rich we could have been using the trillions of gallons flowing down the Missouri Ohio and Mississippi as we speak.

So when Global Warming alarmists give another speech about imminent death if we don't change earths temperature I pay no attention to these blathering.
With the trillions they redistribute amongst themselves and friends. Desalination plants and pipelines would be in place now.

Water is the future if droughts become more severe.
Insane to think humans will die of thirst when 2/3s of the earth surface is water.

The UN is worthless. These elite douche bags don't deserve the sweat off of my balls.
They have watched Africans die now Arabs.
Before long it might be us.
Maybe N.Korea and Iran will be on the human rights council and hook us up.


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## OleJoergensen (Sep 17, 2015)

SilentBob said:


> Well, I'm german, and it's very disturbing whats going on in my country. Thousands of thousands of thousands of people arrive, many of them not registered, nobody knows who they are, how many IS-Warriors are amongst them, the camps are overloaded, school gyms are reserved for the refugees, apartments of german people are terminated to make place for refugees, politicians are thinking about confiscating homeownership, around the camps there are a lot of problems with criminality, drugs, prostitution (everybody knows this, but ..pssst....don't tell) and so on. Christian refugees are suppressed or attacked by the Muslim refugees, between the different groups of refugees escalate ethnic, religious or social conflicts, police is in constant use. Only a minority of the refugees is able to join a regular work, the rest will get social welfare services.
> The politicians have totally lost the control over the situation. They break the rules and laws they give themselves. Everyone who dares to critisize the policy of unbridled influx or is questioning how the future of the country will be is reviled as a racist or Nazi. The media have lost all of their control function and only spread propaganda.
> 
> And there are millions on their way to Europe.
> ...


Thank you for your bravery to share this not uplifting but informative knowledge.
It just supports the great worries I have concerning millions of refuges coming to Europe.
Its a terrible situation especially for the refuges. Its obvious the leaders of Europe has been sleeping. 
Im from Denmark. We are not, yet, facing the great problems as Germany. The Danish people are divided in 2 major groups, one who think we should wellcome refuges and one who think not.
The most has already been said here, I just want to say thank you for sharing your experience.


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