# Live shows that aren't Live, T-Dream and others - not talking just some backing tracks.



## IFM (Mar 14, 2015)

Now I am somewhat guilty of this myself as I play live shows but have no choice but to use backing tracks and perform over the top live with as much as I can. If the situation allows I try to bring in more players.

Now I love synths as much as orchestral sim so one of my favorites is Tangerine Dream. I've seen them live a couple times and sadly unless someone continues the name without Edgar I won't ever again have that opportunity. 

Anyways I've been watching some recent concerts on Youtube and it clearly sounds and seems that there isn't a single note being played live other than the percussionist and guitarist. Some of the keyboards don't even look powered up and the laptops just have the desktop showing. 

I'm figuring there is a master computer off stage that is playing the tracks and sending time code to the video players and lighting desks. Maybe there is some live synth stuff happening there but it all sounds so much like the original records and obviously quantized that I have a hard time believing much of any of it was live. :( 

I've also searched for anything talking about their live stage setup as of late with no luck. Last info I can find is from the era I saw them when they were still using Atari. 

Sadly this is true in many pop concerts where everything is prerecorded and synced...you are there just to watch them dance and put on a light show. The only time the vocal is live is when they talk in-between tunes. 

Anyways just had to get that off my chest.

Cheers!

Chris


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## Daryl (Mar 14, 2015)

I have three thoughts on this:

1) With a live show, you are getting a live show. That is the thing with the primary focus. It is all about visuals. Not the music. It is the same as the argument for using recorded music for ballet, rather than hiring an orchestra. People have come to see the spectacle, and listening is a lesser part, as they could easily do that at home, and for a much lower cost.

2) A lot of commercial music cant be performed live to the same standard as a recorded performance. If it doesn't sound the same as the recording that they are used to, some people find that difficult to enjoy. This is exacerbated by the fact that many band members, particularly vocalists, don't have the skills to perform live to a high enough standard.

3) This is a more general point for commercial music, but often it isn't designed to be performed live. Anyone who has gone to a concert of film music, particularly orchestral music, will have noticed that there are comparatively few modern scores that sound any good, when compared with the more traditional ones. This is primarily because modern scores are designed to be recorded, not performed. I think that there is a large element of this in the pop world, so it's not surprising that there is a lot of miming going on.

D


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## IFM (Mar 14, 2015)

I both agree and disagree with the first point Daryl. The live show should always be about the music and visuals second but most concert goers don't feel that way. 
Many of my shoes are tiny and it is has to be more about the music at that point.


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## Leo Badinella (Mar 14, 2015)

I think that unless they are being forced to do playback (as in some TV shows and in those ocations when there just aren't enough instrumentalists), if they are choosing to do playback even when they could actually be performing then they just have low standards.


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## Daryl (Mar 14, 2015)

Dragonwind @ Sat Mar 14 said:


> I both agree and disagree with the first point Daryl. The live show should always be about the music and visuals second but most concert goers don't feel that way.
> Many of my shoes are tiny and it is has to be more about the music at that point.


I also disagree with the first point, but had to make it, because I know that I'm in the minority. :wink: 

D


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## chimuelo (Mar 16, 2015)

You can progress financially using backing tracks, but your chops, playing while listening to others will stagnate.

The choice is simple, I often go from automated rooms to full on live with pre productions.
My value comes from controlling the vocal effects, special lighting cues and soundeffects during an otherwise totally live performance.

Years ago this was a highly sought after skill set, now no big deal unless you're a seasoned performer, choregrapher who wants such freedoms instead of the usual step, step kick turn, BOOV_BOOV___BUBBA_BOOV_BOOV__.

Much more fun listening to others while playing and being creative.
But cash trumps pleasure for most folks.
I am in hog heaven right now with a kick butt groove machine (humans) that are locked really well.
Eventually this will end and who knows what's next.
Automated or not, I never know what I am doing 6 months from now.

That's the Juice for me.
Constant struggle while learning from others.

Can't buy that anywhere....


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## NYC Composer (Mar 17, 2015)

chimuelo @ Mon Mar 16 said:


> You can progress financially using backing tracks, but your chops, playing while listening to others will stagnate.
> 
> The choice is simple, I often go from automated rooms to full on live with pre productions.
> My value comes from controlling the vocal effects, special lighting cues and soundeffects during an otherwise totally live performance.
> ...



Rock on, Chimmy. Keep it real. =o


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## chimuelo (Mar 18, 2015)

:mrgreen: 
Yeah, I keep it real with fake instruments, best of both worlds.....!!


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## Mystic (Mar 18, 2015)

Lighting designer here.

The base answer is that it really depends. Depends on the artist and also depends on the genre quite a bit.

In rock/country/instrument based music, you obviously have many more live instruments than you have ProTools tracks but many bands do background vocals, synths, orchestration, intros, outros, etc. running prerecorded. Usually everything these days, at least for large concert performance, is running on click tracks both for the benefit of performers, prerecorded tracks and cues.

Pop is a whole other beast. It use to be that most of the music was all run from a server and there were little to no instruments on stage and at one point, most of the artists were using prerecorded vocal tracks. You were going for the show aspect rather than the music aspect. We've been seeing a change in that the past few years where we are seeing many more pop performances being actually performed musically by musicians on stage. The one thing that still stands is a good majority of the shows still use prerecorded vocal tracks. This is one of the reasons I gained a lot of respect for Lady Gaga because her vocal performance is not prerecorded apart from backing vocals.


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## snowleopard (Mar 18, 2015)

Sticking to the OP. Having seen Tangerine Dream a few times I understand what you are saying. But let's take a time machine back to 1975 or so. Back then, Froese, Franke and Baumann basically improvised nearly every concert they gave up to that point. There were some general agreement on structure, key they might play in, but that's about it. They also had, for the time, decent lighting shows, playing in front of backdrops that sometimes showed visuals. The only music they did not play with their own hands, was what Chris Franke could coax out of 16 step sequencers, which were very hand's on. 

Fast forward to TD in the 80's and you had something more akin to your style of playing. I had the fortune to see the Froese-Franke-Schmoelling and Froese-Franke-Haslinger lineups, and while it seemed as though some of it was sequenced, I was impressed by how much they were definitely playing with their hands, viewing from good vantage points. 

By the time you got to the Jermoe Froese years (the nadir IMO), it did indeed seem that it was more and more just pre-recorded shows, with little playing over it. Which definitely got the ire of many fans. I will cut Edgar a lot of slack though, he was obviously aging, a couple years ago he fell and broke his wrist and jaw, and kept performing (however you define that) nearly up until his passing. 

But TD isn't the only band called out for this. Some of Jarre's shows seemed very programmed (though some seemed very hands on, like his 3D show), and there's a somewhat viral video on YouTube of Kraftwerk showing one of the members surfing the Apple site while the music was playing. 

I personally think it would be very refreshing to see someone go back to the early days of TD and create semi-improvised, abstract music, with a minimal production of lights and such (anyone want to start a band?!) But who's going to pay to see that? Very few people I imagine, especially in today's world.


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## Mystic (Mar 18, 2015)

There are bands like Springsteen that do improv very well.


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## chimuelo (Mar 18, 2015)

You'd be surprised Snow.
Been gigging like crazy in Austin, STL and Nashville and are nothing like the stereotype of RedNeck States we so often hear about.
There's so much variety and talent/competition it's just refreshing. 
As a matter of fact Austin Texas smokes every other city or country I ever worked in.
The people who come to see productions, jams, dances, etc. are the finest, well educated (musically speaking) I have seen in years.

You can do anything you want to do if you have the stamina to famine before the feast.
It takes a single club date to go from un-booked to busy.


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## dpasdernick (Mar 18, 2015)

Daryl @ Sat Mar 14 said:


> I have three thoughts on this:
> 
> 1) With a live show, you are getting a live show. That is the thing with the primary focus. It is all about visuals. Not the music. It is the same as the argument for using recorded music for ballet, rather than hiring an orchestra. People have come to see the spectacle, and listening is a lesser part, as they could easily do that at home, and for a much lower cost.
> 
> ...




I remember seeing bands like Alice Cooper and Van Halen back in the day. David Lee Roth sang every third word, mostly flat, and Alice didn't sound much better but... it was live. Raw. Real. AND... they put on an amazing show. To use the excuse that Beyonce or Brittany don't really sing live because they're too busy flopping around on stage, to me, is a cop out. Sing and dance... or don't dance as much and just sing. I don't care if you're a little off key at times. But to prance around to a prerecorded set list that is streaming off a Mac is, again for me, sacrilegious.

Ever watch the "Hell Freezes Over" video by the Eagles? Now that is real craftsmanship by professional singers and musicians. 5 part harmony in real time? Yup they can do it without autotune and without backing tracks. 

Now I must get back to quantizing my drum tracks...


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## IFM (Mar 18, 2015)

snowleopard @ Wed Mar 18 said:


> I personally think it would be very refreshing to see someone go back to the early days of TD and create semi-improvised, abstract music, with a minimal production of lights and such (anyone want to start a band?!) But who's going to pay to see that? Very few people I imagine, especially in today's world.



I can't tell you how much is love to do that. 

I've seen Kitaro a number of times and his shows are all live. My personal goal as I re-enter the world of music I'm best known in is to get some shows together with a lot of live performers. 

Chris


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## NYC Composer (Mar 18, 2015)

dpasdernick @ Wed Mar 18 said:


> Daryl @ Sat Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> > I have three thoughts on this:
> ...



I heard their live album was mixed for 6 months. Hmmm.


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## JonFairhurst (Mar 19, 2015)

dpasdernick @ Wed Mar 18 said:


> I remember seeing bands like Alice Cooper and Van Halen back in the day.



My first big concert ever was Alice Cooper's Billion Dollar Babies tour at the Forum in LA. The band was tight, the spectacle turned up to "11", and if he sang flat, I didn't notice. It was live Rock 'n Roll, baby!

Years later, he played a festival at Anaheim Stadium. Rather than "the band", he was backed by hired guns. At one point, Alice ran over to the guitarist, put his face near the 12th fret and screamed "D-chord, D-chord" into the mic. Yeah, it was technically live, but it was just a money hustle. It didn't just lack magic. It was a bit sad. Then again, it showed that Alice wasn't just a singer/performer. He knew the music. And he was frustrated that he hired a guy who didn't play guitar as well as he did.

Regarding Van Halen, before they had made it, they played a backyard party in my neighborhood. By far, the best Zeppelin covers I had ever heard from an amateur band.


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## dpasdernick (Mar 19, 2015)

JonFairhurst @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> dpasdernick @ Wed Mar 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I remember seeing bands like Alice Cooper and Van Halen back in the day.
> ...



Jon,

That must have been magic watching Van Halen at that time. Years and years ago I was playing in a pub in Lloydminster Alberta in a cover band. There was a poster on the wall. Live from Hollywood California for 2 nights only Motely Crue. A day or so later I was playing 8 days a week with my purple hair and plastic yellow pants and I look to my left and walking in the door is Motely Crue sizing up the room. Coolest looking dudes I had ever seen. I spent the next two days hanging out with them, playing space invaders with Tommy Lee, having breakfast with Vince Neil and talking to Nikki Sixx about how he made his stiletto boots smoke. I remember watching them play Looks that Kill, Knock 'em Dead Kid and thinking these guys are going to be huge. The crowd hated them. They wanted to hear Bob Seger and ZZ top. The next week I dyed my hair black and started buying hair spray buy the gallons. A year later Motley was playing the Pacific Coliseum and I was pumping gas... What do the guys in Spinal Tap say "there's a fine line between stupid and genius"...


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## snowleopard (Mar 20, 2015)

That's a great story Dpasdernick! 



dpasdernick @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> I remember watching them play Looks that Kill, Knock 'em Dead Kid and thinking these guys are going to be huge. The crowd hated them. They wanted to hear Bob Seger and ZZ top.


I believe it was the New York Dolls who in the early 70's David Johansen said they were five guys who looked like Liza Minilli, playing fast, distorted blues in tiny clubs. Then they got a bigger gig, their big chance. Just before the show a friend gave them a flag of the old Soviet Union and they hung it up on stage (height of the cold war!), people were expecting something like Deep Purple or BTO. The band got about two songs in and people were in shock. It wasn't long before the audience was loudly booing and even throwing garbage at them.

_-)


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## JonFairhurst (Mar 20, 2015)

Great post, dpasdernick!

Van Halen wasn't really magic at the time. It was early days, and they were just a garage band playing covers, but they were a very good garage band. Frankly, I barely got a glimpse of them. It was in the quarter-acre-lot suburbs, and the space between fence, house, and garage was packed with guys holding beers. At 10pm the cops broke it up, as usual, for sound limits.

Probably the most magical experience I had was seeing Frampton live a few weeks before he released his huge live album. He was an opening act for Lynyrd Skynyrd. We knew Humble Pie, but weren't familiar with Frampton at all. He made Skynyrd look like a bunch of drunks (which they clearly were!) A few months later, you could walk through a college campus and hear every song on the album playing from a line of dorm room windows. I wasn't surprised. Though we had never heard the songs before, they had us transfixed from beginning to end. It's rare that music is so accessible yet compelling. Of course, today the album is kind of cliche, but having never before heard a guitar ask, "Do you feel like we do?", it was a real ear opener at the time.

Probably the most interesting behind the scenes musician that I know is James Williamson, guitarist for Iggy and the Stooges as of the Raw Power album. I knew James from various international standards meetings. You'd never know that he was a proto-punk rocker and Rock 'n Roll Hall of Famer. He and the band launched a reunion, it did well, and he dropped out of the technical standards gig. Last I saw him, he was amazed at how many new fans were in their teens and '20s. Hopefully, he's still happy and performing...


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## JonFairhurst (Mar 25, 2015)

Hey Chimuelo,

I'm in Nashville on business? You playing here tonight? Any particular band/place you recommend for rock/blues/jazz?

Last night, our group toured the Gibson Custom Shop and then went to the Bourbon Street Blues Club in Printer's Alley. Whitey Johnson's blues band was fantastic with a special nod to Guitarist Colin Linden.

The music scene here in Nashville is on a whole nother level.


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## chimuelo (Mar 25, 2015)

No Jon.
We've had much better support by Media and Radio in STL. So that's where we are until the cancelled gigs from 2 & 3/ 2015 get re booked.

Check out Printers Alley, and I find the guided tour of Music Row rather cheezy, but it's worth looking at once. Printers Alley is beautifully sleezy though and all styles are alive and well. 
Every Guitarist you see down here, regardless of style and gender can scream though, so Music Row might work too.

What did you think of the live groups at the Airport...?
There's an incredible chap on the Grand Piano, and the Bar with live performers has solo and duo acts day and night, pretty impressive for an Airport.

They have some great TSA stories too, as hundreds of people there have cased instruments and drive the Feds nuts.... /\~O 

How long you here..?
I come back Monday mid afternoon, would love to show you the specialty stores.
The best vintage gear collections now that West Hollywood and Bizzarre Guitar in Reno have gone bye bye.


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## JonFairhurst (Mar 27, 2015)

Thanks Chim! I'm back in the Pacific Northwest where I will now detox from the Nashville deep-fried cuisine.

The first night was amazing with the Gibson Custom Shop tour and hosted event at the Bourbon Street Blues and Boogie Bar on Printers Alley. Lee Roy Parnell was the Gibson ambassador (or whatever title they give) performer. I mentioned Whitey Johnson and Colin Linden and should also mention sax player Dana Robbins, who has played with Zappa and Aretha. 

The next night, they held a hosted event at the Country Music Hall of Fame museum. The band was very restrained to allow conversation and the musicians were clearly far stronger than they allowed themselves to be for that type of gig. (The mandolin player was especially good.) I then kicked around some honky tonks on Music Row. Good stuff all around.

I noticed that every taxi is a minivan in that town. Makes sense. A double bass doesn't fit in a Prius.

The airport was a bit disappointing. I went to a bar and grille before boarding, but the player was just a strummer doing covers with a twangy voice. C'mon man, I knew every chord he banged on back when I was eight years old. 

I hope to go back with more leisure time and less work/meetings. It's quite the city!

Frankly, more cities should find a music focus and brand themselves around it. Line up a bunch of bars with stages (and no cover charges) and the musicians and audiences will come. Tell the tourists about it and fill the hotels and restaurants. I know there are zones for commercial, industrial, and residential, but how about adding a "musical" zone?


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