# Slave Building ...



## clarkus (Sep 20, 2014)

I was corresponding with both John G and jose Herring on this Forum, And they suggested Chimuelo as someone who is "way into" this kind of custom-building. Hail to the chief.

Looking for an alternative (if there is one) to 1100. per 16 gig computer via MacMini. Meaning if I want 32 gigs I'm dropping 2600. or so for two machines with SSD's. Which is, um, a lot. I would hope for LESS money I could get more computing power & RAM. The hitch is I want the portability of the Minis. I'm imagining something like a MacMini on steroids. A fanless, portable Hackintosh. As I need to set up camp away from home sometimes & still compose.

Jose writes: "It's a bit of a tricky build and will take time to sort it all out ... I wouldn't recommend the 1155 chipset just yet. I will try to see if I can configure a system in a bit for the 2011 chipset. Mostly out of curiosity."

Anybody got something like this. Is it possible? 

Chimuelo, feel free to message me again.

Obviously the new Mac Cylinder would be a good alternative, but with an entry-level model @ near 3000. it's beyond me.


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## clarkus (Sep 20, 2014)

*Re: Calling Chimuelo: Slave Building ...*

New message from Jose: "1155 chipset limits you to a certain chip and the motherboards are limited to 4 slots. Benefits are that they are cheaper. Down side is that you can only squeeze 32 gigs on them. 

The 2011 chipset has 8 slots on a single cpu mother board and 16 slots on a dual cpu motherboard. The upside is that you can get 64 or 128 gigs on them respectively and the down side is they cost a lot more. But not as much more if you limit yourself toe the single cpu variety. 

Yes you can get a what's called a mini itx case. But, for some reason, I've never found those appealing. Maybe because I saw somebody using one and it was freezing up like crazy. I'm sure they are a lot better now as this was about 8 years ago. But, it's kept a lasting impression on me that I can't shake."


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 20, 2014)

*Re: Calling Chimuelo: Slave Building ...*

Hi Clarkus,

For what it's worth, I built a 32GB slave PC w/ a i-4770 processor (pretty damn fast) for around $1200. I bought the Asus PC from Best Buy w/ 16GB and added another 16GB and a 500GB SSD from crucial.com.

Caveats:

1) It's not a Mac.
2) I know how to troubleshoot and support PC's due to my day job.
3) It is not a custom-DAW-production-ready-tank-with-24/7-techsupport like some of the guys on here use. If you need that, you really need to look at VisionDAW or another outfit like that.

But it works for me... at least for the past 9 months or so. Boot PC, load VEPro, and get to work.

The problem with Apple's hardware cycle is that the prices never change. Those Mac Minis have not been updated since mid/late 2012 and that is a long time in technology terms. I can't imagine paying Apple retail price (already on the high side) for a machine that is 2+ years old. It's like paying 2014 retail price for a 2012 car.

If you MUST have Mac, you might want to consider the new iMac as an alternative. The processor is very fast, you can easily go to 32GB and you can even hook it up as a 2nd monitor to your MacBook.

I dunno... buying a Mac Mini just seems like a bad use of cash to me. If I had $2600, I could build quite a beefy PC (with 64GB, maybe even 128GB)... and still use Logic to drive [/list]the whole thing.

Just one person's perspective...
Marc


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## clarkus (Sep 20, 2014)

*Re: Calling Chimuelo: Slave Building ...*

I didn't know until today there there was a "Mini-PC." Though it's great that several people are now floating the idea of building a machine to my specs, I wonder what I am losing by buying off-the-shelf, like the Asus you mention.

Downsides? For example how is the heat dissipation, or lack of it. Wondering about longevity. Wondering about connectivity of SSD's

Pretty exciting. A 24 gig MacMini? Yeah, baby.


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## José Herring (Sep 20, 2014)

Plus and minus.

Mac definitely has the advantage in the small form factor personal computer. They've built their entire macmini to tested specs where as if you build a minipc you'll be mixing and matching pieces that are made by multiple manufactures all of which I've never been confident of on the mini PC side.

Plus of building your own machine is that at least for large form factors or even rackmount units, since there are millions upon millions of PC users for that market the competition for manufactures to come up with killer parts is fierce. Because God forbid some gamer blows his mobo, the entire internet world will know about it that same day.

Long story short. The only reason to build a PC is that you can get a better machine for cheaper than any mac. For mac mini prices I could build a killer PC desktop that will run circles around it. For MacPro prices I could build 2 machines that will perform better.

But, though I didn't say in my answering your PMs, I wouldn't really consider getting a miniPc off the shelf or even building one. The industry as a whole pays so little attention to mini form factors that the parts just might not be good enough. But that would be my opinion.


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## clarkus (Sep 20, 2014)

*Re: Calling Chimuelo: Slave Building ...*

This guidance is all appreciated very much. Jose (on & off the Forum). You may have to take it outside with Marclawson.


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## José Herring (Sep 20, 2014)

I don't disagree with anything Marclawson is saying. We all have different perspectives.


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## clarkus (Sep 20, 2014)

*Re: Calling Chimuelo: Slave Building ...*

"3) It is not a custom-DAW-production-ready-tank-with-24/7-techsupport like some of the guys on here use. If you need that, you really need to look at VisionDAW or another outfit like that."

Marc, this is quite valuable. I don't have your skill-set. Can you tell me how often you have issues that need sorting out when working this way? Others on this Forum have lad me to believe once a slave is set up with VE Pro it's pretty trouble-free.


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 21, 2014)

*Re: Calling Chimuelo: Slave Building ...*

Hey clarkus, most of the issues I had were related to getting the computer set up. Once it was running, it has worked without trouble. However, some Mac users are not comfortable with a PC, so if (when) it has problems... what will you do? Where (or who) is your Genius Bar? If you are not comfortable with that question, you probably don't want a PC.

That said, sample hosting is a fairly simple task for a PC (or any computer, really). The machine runs one program - VEPro - and does a lot of disk I/O and network streaming. Your main points of failure in this setup are the hard drives and the network adapter. Heat has not been an issue for me - I have mostly seen heat issues with gaming or video-intensive setups that do a lot of graphics processing.

Also, for what it's worth, I would not get a smaller form factor PC (mini-PC). I had one once - it crashed alot due to overheating and I could not install standard upgrades in it (I had to buy the "slim" versions). There is also literally no room inside the machine to install additional drives.

Best of luck,
Marc


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## FriFlo (Sep 21, 2014)

If you want portability, you might consider a 19'' rack case with 2-4 units and build one or two of them into a rack with handles. This way you could get a way more powerful machine than a Mac mini and, while it will not be as small and light weight, it will still be comfortable to carry and very expandable and customizable.
I like my Mac mini! As my office and media PC at home ....


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## clarkus (Sep 21, 2014)

I usually move quicker than this after gathering data: I hate procrastination. But I have to admit this is a tough decision. 

1) I need a machine more suited to use of big sample libraries & my DAW (Logic X)

2) I am not conversant with PC's. I'm a longtime Mac User. I don't code. I've never built or serviced computer hardware. Trying to balance this with the better deal that a PC slave or Hackintosh would provide (compared with the state-of-the art Mac cylinder, I'd spend half as much).

3) I have some need for portability, though there's wiggle room there. When I'm away from the Bay Area (as I will be this winter) I can ship or take an extra piece of luggage.

The decision-point is not just cost, but avoiding complexity. This is hard for me to gauge & so am reaching out to the community, here.

Some say I am inviting in trouble. Others say "Once it's set up, you'll be fine." Chris Darris, who I've gotten to know on & off this forum, has offered to make me a checklist to take care of the necessary steps involved once I marry my computer to a slave using VE Pro. At the same time, he sees the issues & recognizes a Mac solution will make my life easier in some ways.

Here is a place in Davis that is making custom builds matching the specs of newer Mac machines.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/syd/4666493623.html

Here's his price comparison.

Custom Mac Pro 3.7GHz 4-core /w 16GBs RAM: $1725
Custom Mac Pro 3.5GHz 6-core /w 32GBs RAM: $2499
Apple Mac Pro 3.7GHz 4-core /w 16GBs RAM: $3,348
Apple Mac Pro 3.5GHz 6-core /w 32GBs RAM: $4,248

It's tempting.

The "safe" alternative (as far as avoiding issues I may have trouble solving) is to buy a MacMini, maxxed out. Cost analysis: 1100. & then a SSD for 200. more. But I am then within spitting distance (as far as expense) of the 16 gig machine that these folks sell that is upgradable. If I buy aNOther Mac Mini to get to 32 gigs, I've spent a 1000. more than for the Custom Mac Pro listed above, and for a slower machine.

And there's my dilemma, in full. Not just "how little can I spend to get a good result," but "How much grief am I inviting into my life."


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## José Herring (Sep 21, 2014)

Here's Chimuelo's build

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... =rackmount


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## FriFlo (Sep 21, 2014)

OMG, what is it you mac users are afraid of? If you say, you are not a programmer: do you really believe you need to be, to build a PC? If you are not willing to spend any time learning something dead simple as building a PC, ok! Maybe you should just buy whatever Apple has to offer and probably pay a lot more bug for the bang. If you are willing to take some time and want better customization, the PC is for you! 
I use both apple and windows machines and there really is no wizardry behind building a decent audio PC! If it is a slave PC and you only want to run VEpro on it there really is not a single reason to run it on Mac OS X!!! The damn program is written for windows, primarily! You won't even notice running a PC for this task, apart from a slightly different looking desktop!
Sorry to be rude, but it needed to be said! Personally, I think 2014 the Mac Pro is a complete waste of money for audio and I have left it since I changed to Cubase. If you don't need logic for convenience,there hardly is any reason to stay on Mac! It is just some barrier in some peoples head, who think, nothing will be working once you take the windows route! Guys, this is what Apple wants to make you believe, but it is complete BS!


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## clarkus (Sep 21, 2014)

Actually, for this purpose, I'm quite open to the possibility of using a PC. That's why I am opening this up for discussion & thanks for your input. 

Contextualizing your remarks, it sounds like I would need to "learn to build a PC" to work effectively with a PC used for audio purposes. I can see how that would be the case both when something goes south (as can happen on any system) and when I need to update.

While I get where you're coming from, I have friends like you who live comfortably in both worlds ( PC and Mac ) & are quite astute about computer hardware who are telling me to go into this with my eyes wide open, meaning that if I migrate to a PC, or slave a PC to my Mac I can be spending a lot of time puzzling out problems. It's not me making this case: it's them. None of us composer guys like to have things interrupting us for too long when we're trying to get work done. 

So I'm still soliciting opinions / finding out what experience people have had when they went to a more complex setup.


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## José Herring (Sep 21, 2014)

clarkus @ Sun Sep 21 said:


> While I get where you're coming from, I have friends like you who live comfortably in both worlds ( PC and Mac ) & are quite astute about computer hardware who are telling me to go into this with my eyes wide open, meaning that if I migrate to a PC, or slave a PC to my Mac I can be spending a lot of time puzzling out problems. It's not me making this case: it's them. None of us composer guys like to have things interrupting us for too long when we're trying to get work done.
> .



I'd be careful about this advice. It's totally not true. The only trick with newer PC for audio is that you have to be careful about the hardware you pick and careful how you setup the software initially. 

But two of the biggest composer's in Hollywood who hit it hard on major motion pictures everyday rely on PC. If it was problematic they wouldn't do it.

I've run one build for 5 years every day hard straight and I've had only one time when the computer fail to boot. It took me about 1 day to fix it.

My other machine I've run hard everyday for about 3 years now and it's rock solid. It's only problem is that I also use it for internet and so things creep in from the outside from time to time that I need to deal with. 

The key is that if you use your machine strictly for music. It will be a set and forget. Never update it unless you have to, never put it on the internet except to authorize programs, never game on it, ect.. and it will be fine.

So in your case. Set it up for VEPro, and that's it. You'll be fine. I've helped people do this and nobody has come back to me to complain. Except for 1 person, because he didn't like the fan noise. :mrgreen:


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## clarkus (Sep 21, 2014)

I hear you, Jose. Thanks. I'm getting closer to a decision on this. RE: buying a PC, I have Chris Darris in my corner, could help me over rough spots / future need for updates / general education.

Just to clarify, it's clear fine & successful composers use & rely on PC's every day. I was not saying that they necessarily fail more often or have more bugs (especially if you keep them off the internet). My low-level agony around this whole decision has been about me coming from the Mac world, being not particularly computer-literate & trying to grasp what kind of learning curve I have coming up. It has to do with my incompetence, not what does or can work. And this is what my computer pals (including Chris) are alerting me to, is that I'll have a few things to learn & get familiar with. They aren't saying "PC's are bad." Well, except when they are. But I don't have a dog in that fight. 

Thanks for your perspective / guidance / advice! Appreciate your reassurance.


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## rgames (Sep 21, 2014)

There's definitely no need to fret over building a PC. If you can make a sandwich, you can build a PC. There are only two things you need to do:

1. Use name-brand components (plenty of good advice on this forum and elsewhere)
2. Install a clean copy of Windows.

If you do that, you'll be fine. There is no magic. There are no Gurus. It is, literally, like making a sandwich: it's obvious what goes where and the result is a function of the choice of ingredients, not the assembly process.

With a PC you *can* spend endless hours tweaking all sorts of things but there's no reason to do so. Just run everything stock and you'll get 99.9% of the meaningful performance that the tweakers get. 10 years ago it was more like 95% so it was worth a bit of tweaking to get that last 5%. But any recent-vintage machine (last 5-7 years) requires no tweaks. At least I've never seen anyone demonstrate a practical advantage to tweaking. I made a video several months ago where I demonstrated meaningful performance for a master+slave setup for VEPro and I've gotten a bunch of e-mails asking what tweaks I make to get such good performance. They're always surprised when I say "None."

Pick good components and install a clean copy of Windows. That's all there is to it. No special knowledge required. If you want to build your confidence, practice by making sandwiches :D

rgames


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## clarkus (Sep 21, 2014)

Thanks, rgames.

Here's a possibly bone-headed question: with it possible now to run a single machine that can handle 64 gigs, why are you running a slave at all?


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## rgames (Sep 21, 2014)

clarkus @ Sun Sep 21 said:


> Thanks, rgames.
> 
> Here's a possibly bone-headed question: with it possible now to run a single machine that can handle 64 gigs, why are you running a slave at all?


Because any single machine has a limit for number of voices that is basically independent of RAM or processor power. If you need more than that minimum, you need multiple machines. My i5 2500k and i7 4930k both give about 1500 voices with Kontakt and VSL libraries at 128 buffer. I also had an i7-920 that did the same. There's a huge difference in processor power across those three machines and they all stream about the same number of voices. That tells you that processor power doesn't matter for streaming samples.

Furthermore, just because you can load 64 GB of samples into RAM doesn't mean you can actually use them all. It all comes down to how many voices you need at the same time. That limit is basically independent of processor speed or amount of RAM, so if you you need more than that minimum then you need more than one machine. If not, you don't. It all comes down to how dense your orchestrations are and/or how many mic positions you use for each instrument.

rgames


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## clarkus (Sep 21, 2014)

"My i5 2500k and i7 4930k both give about 1500 voices..."

That's (roughly) 750 voices per machine.

Does "voice" as you are using the term translate to instances of a given Kontakt instrument? Sorry for my ignorance.

And how big is your template?


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## rgames (Sep 21, 2014)

clarkus @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> "My i5 2500k and i7 4930k both give about 1500 voices..."
> 
> That's (roughly) 750 voices per machine.
> 
> ...


Each machine can do 1500, so 3000 total.

A "voice" is a single audio stream, so one dynamic layer in stereo requires two voices. If you have three stereo dynamic layers set up for crossfading then that's 3x2 = 6 voices. Now throw multiple mic positions on there and it multiplies again. Now throw a fast run where you have multiple notes fading in/out with legato transitions and it multiplies even more. If you write dense orchestrations and fast runs then it's pretty easy to get up to thousands of voices and there's no single machine that can do that (not that I've seen, anyway). If you don't write dense orchestrations or fast runs then you will have significantly lower voice requirements and one machine may be sufficient. Again, though, it's not a function of RAM or processor power - it's a function of required voice count.

Here's more info than you want about my template: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dtBxZaUB8p8

That video shows three machines - I've since downsized to two but it's the same template.

rgames


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## clarkus (Sep 22, 2014)

Terrific. I'm halfway through your video. I've got a question. You mention early on the reasons that multiple machines connecting via ethernet seem the best answer, given the equipment available now. And those reasons include minimizing latency. 

Has anything happened to change your mind? Any of the recent PC or Mac machines with faster processors & additional memory?


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 22, 2014)

rgames @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> There's definitely no need to fret over building a PC. If you can make a sandwich, you can build a PC. There are only two things you need to do:
> 
> 1. Use name-brand components (plenty of good advice on this forum and elsewhere)
> 2. Install a clean copy of Windows.
> ...



I agree. I finally took the plunge of self-building on the last, and it was a breeze. Some of us have memories of old PCs that haunt them - dip switches, thick ribbon cables, cramped cases, impossibly fiddly CPU mounts and fans and a whole world of hell. I was delighted to discover that what Richard says is correct, it's so, so, so much easier now. Just do your homework in what bits you buy - and VI Control is terrific for having knowledgeable people check over your shopping list.

Moreover, it was far quicker as well. My previous build by a supposed audio specialist company was a disaster - wrong components put in the wrong place, faulty components, components installed upside down, wires off and a terrible Windows install that somehow managed to occupy 180gb of a 240gb system drive (yes, just for the OS). I'm now mystified as to how they managed to achieve all of this, seeing how easy it is to DIY. From ordering, it was 4-5 weeks til I had a working PC from SolidHawk. When I built it myself, it was 4-5 days (that's from clicking "order" to having set up all the DAW software) and worked first time. The physical build can't have taken more than a day.

As to the issue of number of voices, again I agree with Richard (I think - I still don't know how you reliably measure or test number of voices). It's hard to predict exactly what your demands are, I've found. I run a single machine and the whole orch inc LASS FC, A, B and C gets no issues, while 2 mic positions on Spitfire can cause problems. In the case of Sable though, I tend to run single stereo mic mixes, not the CTAO patches, so it's not a real world problem for me and I'm delighted to not have to bother with a slave.


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## olajideparis (Sep 22, 2014)

FriFlo @ Sun Sep 21 said:


> OMG, what is it you mac users are afraid of? If you say, you are not a programmer: do you really believe you need to be, to build a PC? If you are not willing to spend any time learning something dead simple as building a PC, ok! Maybe you should just buy whatever Apple has to offer and probably pay a lot more bug for the bang. If you are willing to take some time and want better customization, the PC is for you!
> I use both apple and windows machines and there really is no wizardry behind building a decent audio PC! If it is a slave PC and you only want to run VEpro on it there really is not a single reason to run it on Mac OS X!!! The damn program is written for windows, primarily! You won't even notice running a PC for this task, apart from a slightly different looking desktop!
> Sorry to be rude, but it needed to be said! Personally, I think 2014 the Mac Pro is a complete waste of money for audio and I have left it since I changed to Cubase. If you don't need logic for convenience,there hardly is any reason to stay on Mac! It is just some barrier in some peoples head, who think, nothing will be working once you take the windows route! Guys, this is what Apple wants to make you believe, but it is complete BS!



Well I will tell you what mac people are afraid of; last year after using macs exclusively throughout my career I finally decided to take a leap of faith and build my own super powered PC. I researched the parts for months and had the spec checked and double checked by two friends who are composers and have built their own PCs, one of whom is a tech support professional. On the first go of building it, it didn't work at all...as I am living away from home (the USA) I was unable to RMA my ASUS motherboard from here as it was prohibitively expensive to send it back, finally RMA'd it when I visited home earlier this year and they sent it back. Finally in April (about 7 months since I initially purchased this thing mind you), with the assistance of my tech support/composer friend I got it working. Well kind of...it was crashing all over the place. I probably spent 40 to 60 hours on team viewer with my friend over a period of over a month trying to solve it and my friend (who does this for a living) could not get to the bottom of things. Eventually I decided to reinstall to rule out a hardware problem....well that did not work either. So nearly a year after purchasing this cutting edge machine it is still not working properly. 

I do not regret my decision to go PC at all but if I had it all to do again I would have paid the extra thousand dollars or so for a tested and professionally built system from ADK. I can tell you that if I were to add up all the time I ever spent installing and configuring all of the macs I have owned over the course of the last ten years it would not have added up to half the time I spent on this machine. Given I understand part of this was simply bad luck, but my point is that there are really so many variables when it comes to OEM machines and if you are a professional who relies on their computer to get their work done you would do well to have a machine built properly. In my experience the cash savings is not worth the trade off in loss of productivity. That being said, once you get around to using Windows the PC experience is absolutely fine and in most measurable ways PCs are superior to macs in terms of performance, particularly when it comes to audio so embrace the learning curve and invest wisely and you'll do fine.

Good luck!


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## chimuelo (Sep 22, 2014)

Actually the chimuelo build above is now a spare, works great, 
I just turned it into a spare after years of stable live use.
The new build is much faster.

ASRock Z97 Extreme 6
i7 4770K / 32gb 
Samsung XP941 512gb samples
Plextor M6e 256gb OS+Apps
Supermicro 14" x D 260watt PSU

Kontakt 5
VB3 + Melda Rotary
Pianoteq 5

10-15% of each core
50% capacity on storage devices
40% of RAM
Just a lean bad ass Kontakt machine.
Have all instruments and patches loaded
simple MIDI matrix used in real time to control weverything.

Built a similar box for PLAY/Kontakt/VSL using the Extreme 11/a ASRock 
This box will host PLAY/VSL as easily since it has the same storage devices and CPU.

1.2GBps seq. read / 102k Random IOps XP941
740MBps read / 84k Random IOps M6e

32C case temp
39C CPU temp w/ Dynatron 1U HSF

Tempurature, speed, low energy and portability were the concerns.

The DAW is the 1U chassis with the Blue LAN cable hanging down.



how to screen capture


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 22, 2014)

Olajide - we've had polar opposite experiences! I had all my grief from the supposedly professional builders, DIY was a cinch. You were pretty unlucky I think.

I bought all my components from Amazon, partly because RMAing from them is always fast and painless (fortunately I didn't need to return anything on this build). From memory, I think I assembled all the main components, then booted into BIOS to check everything thus far was OK. Had it not been, I wouldn't have proceeded to a Windows install. This isn't a foolproof system by any means, but I think it helps to do it in stages and buy from places where it's easy to get replacements.


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## olajideparis (Sep 22, 2014)

Yeah I think I just needed to get my computer baptized or something. I may be open to building again on my own if I had the time to do it while in the states so I can properly test and RMA things but the biggest complication was being abroad and having no means of sending my mobo back for service. Had I been back home I probably would have had this sorted in a couple of months. Who was the DAW builder you dealt with?


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## clarkus (Sep 22, 2014)

I am glad to hear your story, olajideparis, and sorry to hear about your loss (of hours).
In a sense I started this thread to hear from people for whom things have not gone swimmingly. Maybe I can do this for myself in a way that avoids a lot of grief.

In case you're coming in late & don't have the morning to get through this whole thread, I am looking at these comp's that are built by a fellow in Davis with some track record (though, truth to tell, I don't know anyone with his build). They are "Iconic Workstations." Feel free to weigh in. The claim is that I would be buying a machine with the specs of a new, top-of-the-line Mac Pro for much less. 

I would be slaving it from my MacBook Pro.

Unless I buy the bigger version, put in more memory & use it as a standalone. I was very happy to hear just now that Guy is getting good results with a single computer. I am watching rgames video on slaving (linked above) & he expresses skepticism you can get the necessary performance without it.

Here is the place in Davis that is making custom builds matching the specs of newer Mac machines. 

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/syd/4666493623.html 

Here's his price comparison. 

Custom Mac Pro 3.7GHz 4-core /w 16GBs RAM: $1725 
Custom Mac Pro 3.5GHz 6-core /w 32GBs RAM: $2499 
Apple Mac Pro 3.7GHz 4-core /w 16GBs RAM: $3,348 
Apple Mac Pro 3.5GHz 6-core /w 32GBs RAM: $4,248


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## JohnG (Sep 22, 2014)

Hi clarkus,

I agree about PCs -- use 5, they last a long time, components are very inexpensive now.

If I were building a unit I would just use one of chimuelo's builds, BUT...

...if you want someone reputable to build it AND you want a warranty (which a Craigslist guy won't usually be able to offer), check out these guys:

http://www.visiondaw.com/productcart/pc/index.asp

They have built PCs for a lot of Famous Composers,* and they streamline the OS, which is very important (they have streamlined all my PCs). They have off-the-shelf designs, including portables, and you can customize them.

It's working when you receive it, made specifically for audio, and you get a warranty -- you don't get that if you build it yourself.

*from their website:
Danny Elfman, James Newton-Howard, David and Randy Newman, Harry Gregson-Williams (and a lot more)


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## rgames (Sep 22, 2014)

Using a service like VisionDAW is not a bad idea. However, I've never done so. I've had conversations with a lot of specialty DAW manufacturers and have never gotten a good answer on what value they provide. I've gotten responses that include references to non-musical benchmarks but I'm not buying the machine to run benchmarks, I'm buying the machine to produce music. So if you want to show me the value of paying for your knowledge then you need to display it in the context of producing music.

As I said, stock Windows runs as well as anything else that I've seen. No special tweaking is required. Furthermore, electronics components die quickly when they do, so the standard return policy for the parts will cover any hardware issues.

The advantage is that they save you 90 minutes or or so to put the pieces together and install Windows. So the price-value comparison is in those 90 minutes - how much is 90 minutes worth to you?

Again, I'm sure the specialty DAW manufacturers make fine machines. However, they're just using the same parts you can buy yourself. I have a staff of people who manage computers for my folks in my day job and we buy the equivalent of specialty DAW machines because it's worth it on that scale. For an individual composer with no computer support staff, though, I'm not so sure. In truth it doesn't matter - you're not buying computers all the time so the cost impact is pretty minimal.

You can pay someone to make your sandwiches, too, but if you use the same ingredients then yours will taste the same. The question is whether it's worth the money to have someone else make your sandwiches - the end product is the same.

rgames


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## rgames (Sep 22, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> As to the issue of number of voices, again I agree with Richard (I think - I still don't know how you reliably measure or test number of voices). It's hard to predict exactly what your demands are, I've found. I run a single machine and the whole orch inc LASS FC, A, B and C gets no issues, while 2 mic positions on Spitfire can cause problems. In the case of Sable though, I tend to run single stereo mic mixes, not the CTAO patches, so it's not a real world problem for me and I'm delighted to not have to bother with a slave.


The scripting plays a role as well. I get a lot more voices in LASS than Cinebrass. The Kontakt engine is very efficient but, as with any scripting endeavor, the end result is a function of the efficiency of the script. LASS and VSL are the upper limits that I've seen.

All the sample playback engines give you a voice count readout - you just play back a passage and watch the number of voices. It's not exact but you can get close enough to capture the differences.

rgames


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 22, 2014)

olajideparis @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> Who was the DAW builder you dealt with?



A UK company called Solid Hawk.

Richard - interesting, thanks. Makes sense that scripting plays a part. I also wonder if the shorter tails help too - both LASS and VSL are relatively dry compared to most other libs, which means there might be less floating stuff in the background.


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## JohnG (Sep 22, 2014)

rgames @ 22nd September 2014 said:


> As I said, stock Windows runs as well as anything else that I've seen. No special tweaking is required.



Hi Richard,

I agree with 99% of your approach but on this one I have to differ. I got noticeably better performance after VisionDAW's tweaking the OS in Windows 7 and Windows Crap -- I mean Vista.

Much less in the way of CPU use in idle, resulted in more overhead when playing back a lot of samples.


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## FriFlo (Sep 22, 2014)

Olajide, yes of course! Something CAN go wrong building a PC. I have had a power mac G5, a Mac book pro, a Mac Pro 2008 and currently a Mac mini (not as a DAW). I have also had two custom built PCs from a German DAW builder with good reputation. Having had all those machines I went back to building my own windows machines up to specs I found here or elsewhere.
I have had problems with both custom built PCs, and Apple PCs. I could always find out by myself what the problem was. If I wouldn't, I'd have to pay somebody. Bringing the Mac to Apple would always have been the most expensive solution. So, I don't really get what is the advantage of a Mac in an emergency scenario? They can have problems as well! Neither is apple amazingly fast in repairing your PC ...


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## JohnG (Sep 22, 2014)

I've never had a single problem with a Mac. Although I prefer PCs for slaves, that's partly because:

1. I have plenty of room,

2. Jose Herring helped me build the first one (thanks!)

3. It's kind of fun and when you have a lot of them it's good to be able to know how to swap out components.

Tip of the day: Don't neglect a good case. Parts must stay cool or they burn out more quickly.


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## rgames (Sep 22, 2014)

JohnG @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> I agree with 99% of your approach but on this one I have to differ. I got noticeably better performance after VisionDAW's tweaking the OS in Windows 7 and Windows Crap -- I mean Vista.
> 
> Much less in the way of CPU use in idle, resulted in more overhead when playing back a lot of samples.


I'll have to trust but verify on that one 

How much is "noticeable", and compared to what? If you're comparing to a Dell or HP machine where there's NOT a clean Windows install then I would agree. But on a clean Windows install with decent components, I haven't seen anyone show that tweaking makes a difference on anything except synthetic benchmarks.

Of course, the fact that I haven't seen it doesn't mean that tweaks don't help. But it is odd that I've been looking for years with no success...!

rgames


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## JohnG (Sep 22, 2014)

@Richard -- I don't try to science it quite as much as you do, but the idle CPU went from well over 30% to quite a bit less than 10%. More important, sequences that had pops before, don't now.

I understand the skepticism, though. Sometimes people imagine improvement when there isn't anything.

Mostly they turned off a lot of crap that one doesn't need, like tablet access, on a slave. It was about 30 items, I'd say, overall, in all kinds of places in the computer.


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## clarkus (Sep 22, 2014)

Thanks, guys, for words of wisdom re: warranties & other matters.

On the matter of OS for slaves, Chris Harris writes:

"A lot of Pros use MAC OS for their DAW and Windows for their slaves. It just comes down to preference and performance. With the Mac OS, however, you will have the memory server with Kontakt. This is not available on Windows-based systems."

Not wanting to get into a debate about Mac vs. PC, if we can avoid that. Just trying to understand what you gain with the Windows OS in your slave that you don't with the Mac OS (or vice-versa).

A L S O ... anyone want to weigh in on using a single machine? i.e. have we finally arrived at a place where this a perfectly fine strategy?

I gather latency has been an issue & that using a few slaves will take care of that. But machines have been getting faster with more cores & more available ram in a single machine: A few people here are using a single machine with success, I gather.

I'll be buying something robust soon. Life would be simpler if I could max it out, add a few SSD's & be done. With the Mac OS on that machine I could get on with my work (on a single machine) without the learning curve of VE Pro.

I understand some people really want to see me take on a new skill; this would put hair on my chest, eradicate cowardice, timidity etc. etc. but honestly I just want to hemorrhage some money and get back to work. 

Retract that: my more serious question: rgames & others have recognized there's a fine result can be achieved slaving together 2 PC's that are (relatively) inexpensive to the computer one is controlling them from. If I can get a single computer for the cost of those 3 that's fast & with a lot of ram, am I still going to be hurting in some way? Such as latency?


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## JohnG (Sep 22, 2014)

clarkus maybe you should contact the guys at 8dio? At least one of the people there is a big fan of a single machine.

It's a fair question.

Obviously, it's up to them whether they will have / take the time to answer this kind of inquiry, but it would be a great resource if they would.


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## José Herring (Sep 22, 2014)

clarkus @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> "A lot of Pros use MAC OS for their DAW and Windows for their slaves. It just comes down to preference and performance. With the Mac OS, however, you will have the memory server with Kontakt. This is not available on Windows-based systems."



Be careful who you up a get your information from. 

The reason why windows based systems don't have memory server is because it never needed it.

When Kontakt went 64bit, Windows had a working true 64bit OS but OSX was not fully 64bit. OSX was and very well still may be based on top of a 32bit kernel. Windows since XP64 has a true 64 bit system on a 64 bit kernel.

So, memory server was added to Mac systems because Kontakt 64 bit couldn't access the extended memory capabilities without a workaround, whick became Kontakt memory server.

Since Windows had fully 64bit OS then it never needed the memory server to access the additional ram.

As far as one machine goes. It pretty much can be done, depending on what you want to put into it. But, I wouldn't attempt to do it on Mac unless you can fork over 10g for the latest mac pro and all the amenities. On PC you can probably do it for about 1/2 that price, maybe a little more.

edit: I just did a brief check and it looks like at 10.7 OSX now does have a 64bit kernel.


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## José Herring (Sep 22, 2014)

I just wanted to add that I pretty much run one system with the second computer as kind of a spill over when the first one gets full.

On my main machine I "only" have 24gigs and I'm able to run HS Gold, HB Gold, EWQLSO Gold, Sonic Implant strings (special articulations only) a Smattering of older VSL Woodwinds, EZ Drummer, Alchemy, and a bunch of other VST synths.

All without problems and it takes up about 19gigs total. On my slave I use only for Cinematic strings 2 because I can't get it to fit on my main machine.

So if I had double the ram I could easily do almost everything I needed and probably even upgrade to Diamond strings.

Next machine I make will probably be an all in one machine with 64gigs or 128 gigs of ram, money permitting. I've always just wanted to do everything on one machine. Makes my music making so much more fun.


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## chimuelo (Sep 22, 2014)

You can do everything on a single machine since M.2 Ultra PCI-e 4x connectors on the ASRock came out. Those guys didn't even know they made a custom DAW motherboard, but they did.
The ASRock Extreme 11/a I built for the production I was in loaded PLAY/VSL and Kontakt fine and never had issues.

If I were going to design an Orchestral single machine I would check out their X99s until a version using the M.2 PCI-e 4x connector was on it.
That gives you Quad RAM and the seq. read and random IOps needed.
Knowing that company I bet they showed one at IDF a few weeks ago.


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## clarkus (Sep 22, 2014)

You guys are a goldmine. Thanks. I'm going to watch the rest of rgames video & see if I can dispel my ignorance a bit.

& I can lob an e-mail to 8dio & see what they're using over there. Why not?

It's a more than usually interesting topic, the slave topic: we seem to be @ a point where one's nearly able to use a single machine. That's what I'm getting here. & some are making it work. 

rgames in his video acknowledges we are "nearly there, but not quite" with latency still best dispelled vis several machines & it being (for him) more cost-effective & he mentions, too, if one machine goes down you are not utterly out of business. 

But his video was done a few years ago. Aside from the built-in redundancy (and that benefit is not going away) I am very interested to reach a conclusion on this part of the puzzle given what's now available.

chimuelo ... what's the cost of a machine like the one you're describing? Just trying to get a ballpark, as I have no idea.


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## chimuelo (Sep 22, 2014)

The Extreme 6 build was 1450 including the Chassis. 
I have used a full pop Window Pro 7 from a previous build so that might add another 175 USD.
And Kontakt's voice count is off of the hook.
Using 8 Instances of LASS and 2 x Prominy Metal / Orange Tree Rosewood Grand and 2 x Strawberry ( old ELO Score ), I was getting just under 3.000 voices.
I never need that many but it was a way to calibrate the Samsung XP941 read and random IOps.

I use ASIO Duplexxed @ 1.2 msec., Standalone @ .07 msec. / 64 samples / 48k
120k buffers for RAM is my sweet spot.
The fact that I can run so many instances of LASS tells me how efficient Kontakt 5 is, and how well IRQ's work for 1150/Z97s.

ASRock is the only motherboard that can run the Samsung XP941 @ rated specs. 
Everyone else has already released their builds for CES and 2015, all of them use PCI-e 2x connectors, so that pretty much narrows the field.

Good Luck let me know is ASROck and Samsung is used, I have the right guy in Australia as long as the supply lasts. And Newegg is the go 2 guys for the ASRock stuff.


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## clarkus (Sep 22, 2014)

Will pm you ... thanks.


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 28, 2014)

Something to consider if you're leaning towards the Mac Mini...

http://www.macrumors.com/2014/09/25/mac-mini-october-update/

This thing is long overdue for an update.


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## JW (Sep 28, 2014)

@chimuelo

Thanks for the info on the ASRock motherboards. Any thoughts on the Asus x99 motherboards? I want to incorporate m.2 x4 on my next build and need to decide on the motherboard. Specifically looking at the Asus x99-e ws, Asus Rampage V Extreme, and also the ASRock X99X Killer...any thoughts on these? thanks in advance.

JW


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## samphony (Sep 28, 2014)

Hey C.

What case are you using for that build?



chimuelo @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> Actually the chimuelo build above is now a spare, works great,
> I just turned it into a spare after years of stable live use.
> The new build is much faster.
> 
> ...


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## clarkus (Sep 28, 2014)

This is the chimuelo shopping list for a machine with 64 - 128 gig capacity. In answer to the question about chassis, it's not included in the cost of the machine & I am soliciting suggestions, with quiet being one criterion & portability another (can a fellow have both? Dunno.)

I will post scenario B in a moment, which is chimuelo's shopping list for a 32 gig machine (max), coming in @ 950. for the parts, sans chassis.

Large Capacity Build

Supermicro X9SRA 
Intel Core i7-4820K Ivy Bridge-E 
Antec GX GX 700 
Antec EarthWatts Green EA-380D PSU 

G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) 
240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) 
Desktop Memory Model F3-1600C9D-16GXM x 4 

SanDisk Ultra II SDSSDHII-240G-G25 2.5" 240GB 
SanDisk Ultra II SDSSDHII-480G-G25 2.5" 480GB 
_____________________________________________________ 
1640 USD for a 64GB Supermicro Workstation 

(can) always upgrade to 128GB later but DDR3 will be expensive by then 
as DDR4 will be on the shelves. Which is why if you want 64GBs, 
Get one now, and get one designed for 512GB, like this server board.


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## clarkus (Sep 28, 2014)

32 gig Build

Supermicro C7Z97-OCE 

Intel i7 4770 

Crucial DDR3-1600 BLS2K8G3D1609ES2LX0 x 2 
32GBs RAM Total 

SanDisk Ultra II 240GB OS+Apps 
SanDisk Ultra II 480GB Samples 

Antec GX 700 
Antec EA-380D 
_____________________________________________ 

Total 950 USD @ newegg.com 

This is based on cost, speed, reliable RAM, low energy/low heat. 
You could add GFX card, but I don't use them. 
I find the Intel GPU HD4500 to be a great 2D/3D solution and it takes away no resources from the CPU. It only needs 256GB of RAM allocated if even that, but with 32GBs' what's it going to hurt running Max. allowance. 

Supermicro boards are designed for high RAM counts. 
This particular unit even allows overclocking which would greatly speed up Omnisphere's lengthy loads. 
The SanDisk Ultra IIs are a great price per GB, and the random IOPs is very nice and should do anything you need. 

* * *

More suggestions I've received: NCW / Kontakt-based instruments make the smaller build listed above practical. For Spitfire fans & the like, not so much.

from chimuelo:

"Kontakts' way of converting samples to a lossless/compressed format. 
Really excellent results when developers did this before marketing their instruments. 
LASS, Orange Tree and many developers already do this. Your RAM requirements and load times dwindle to 40-45% less RAM instantly, making multiple instances of Kontakt and Instrument Banks a walk in the park."

Would like to thank chimuelo for hugely useful correspondence & free research which he did & hope he doesn't mind that I'm sharing all this.


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## milesito (Sep 28, 2014)

Seems like nobody in general is proposing a dual processor haswell system or a system with much more than 32gb of ram for a slave system. Is there any particular reason why? Most of what I have read is an i7 with 32gb of ram..


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## clarkus (Sep 28, 2014)

Read two posts back. 

There are two builds listed, one a machine with 64 - 128 gig capacity.

Could be used as a slave or as a standalone machine.

As could the other smaller build, for that matter. Just depends on your needs & budget.


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## clarkus (Sep 28, 2014)

Does anyone have an opinion about the internal drive?

A builder I am talking to has these options:

500 GB SATA III SD Boot Drive

or the 1 TB version (for considerably more)

Trying to figure if I keep my audio libraries on external SSD drives, if there's any reason the boot drive needs to be so roomy as 1 TB.


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## chimuelo (Sep 28, 2014)

1TB if you have a box office hits maybe.

The only thing I see useful for external drives are projects which could be large Hybrid drives where you get huge storage and no excessive write penalties.
Seagate Hybrids are very cheap, fast and large. They also make great boot drives since the most used data is usually under 8GBs, and their designs start with 4-8GBs of NAND Flash which operate at SSD speeds and latency.

The mechanical part is plenty fast for storage only and since you will most likely do lots of saves for safety and temporary storage, the writes are excessive, making mechanical a wise choice.

Opinion only but I used Seagate Momentus for years, and all of my spares have them as OS+Apps+storage and they work well.

Please, stay seated.


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## clarkus (Sep 28, 2014)

Hey - thanks for your perspective, chimuela. To make sure I understand --

... in building a computer, you would prefer that drive or drives all be internal?

You don't see a need or advantage in SSD's?

With the latter opinion especially, it's not the answer I expected. Be curious to hear from other people building out there & if they have opted for mechanical drive or drives.


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## clarkus (Sep 29, 2014)

rgames writes, in a parallel thread:

"I have found that SSD's greatly increase polyphony"


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 29, 2014)

clarkus @ Mon Sep 29 said:


> rgames writes, in a parallel thread:
> 
> "I have found that SSD's greatly increase polyphony"



And I concur.


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## chimuelo (Sep 29, 2014)

Triple the rate actually and I was using 10k Raptors.

I used OCZ SSDs, Vertex 4's for years before I turned them into spares.
Seems like the less writes one does the longer they last.

If my M.2s last that long it would be nice. They are somewhat unprotected though as they appear as the guts from 2.5" devices.

6 months and counting.


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## clarkus (Sep 29, 2014)

Triple the rate of what?

I don't (yet) use a SSD, but there's a claim that there are quicker load times. And "more polyphony."

Please don't think I'm picking an argument. Just trying to ease out what people are experiencing.


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## chimuelo (Sep 29, 2014)

Not at all chief.
Was using SCSI Seagate Cheetahs @15k years ago and couldn't afford to upgrade as I lost my ass on those, so I waited for Western Digital to leave SCSI behind and go for SATA. 
Using 10k Raptors I noticed I had the same polyphony as the Cheetahs for thousands less.
So I kept using Raptors from the 360G, to the 740G to the 1500 models and by then was using Kontakt as Giga died. (R.I.P.)

When I went to SSDs on Kontakt I noticed triple the polyphony.
Some say it's a combination of access time + MBps.
The only tools we have are the voice counts in the Instruments themselves, so who knows why they triple, but the polyphony leaps.

M.2 SSDs are probably 4 times the amount of mechanical drives, but that's an estimation.
But to not use SSDs means you probably only record a track at a time and bounce a lot.
Nobody says SSDs have to be used.

For live real time work though I might be able to play 1 or 2 instruments in real time with a Raptor, but I consistently need 8 zones with splits and layers so I have had great success with SSDs and especially the newer M.2s.

I know that 775MBps and 100k Random IOps is my sweet spot for a big template and no bouncing to audio.
I get 1.2GBps and 108k Random IOps, anything more than that is probably diminishing returns.

My old Raptor was 88MBps, and SSDs were 6 times faster, so this is typical as one would think 6 times more polyphony, but usually half of the boasted synthetic benchmarks equals real time with stuff we use.


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## clarkus (Sep 29, 2014)

Okay. Cool. I misunderstood.

Thx!


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