# Film Composers Need to Learn about SALES (Getting a Filmscoring gig)



## gsilbers (Sep 2, 2020)

I saw this random video which ill post below and thought this is one of the most underrated topics composers are commenting and looking for in learning about filmscoring.

SALES
SALES
SALES


Yes, SALES is important. i started working in Hollywood about 18 years ago doing audio post did also music and also distribution.
Started with some low level 20th century fox tv shows and later did plenty of fox/disney/warner/etc work.
It started with a small company and i was employee #8.
Fast forward many years later and that same studio won an emmy for westorld, does all the amazon post and deals with "mastering" for fox/disney, warner etc. and grew to about 200 employees from editors, mixers, directors, music etc. And does production for several shows as well. Imagine Tecnicolor or Deluxe... but better. All within the span of 15 years... due to SALES.

I went on to work at fox dealing with post for their shows and dealt with top companies and prodcutions to the small one shop trailer music guy and everything in between. And quit about a week before disney bought fox to focus on music and pulseseetter-sounds... and mainly not having to commute in LA. (its really that bad!).

The one thing that impressed me most in post production was SALES.
And in this context... filmscoring is part of post production. We tend to think over wise, and live in our bubbles.

But Every small or big studio or even artists had these "Sales" poeple. And some even have several of these characters.

At the begining I was plenty busy dealing with sound design and mixing to take notice but i kept seeing these people. and asked them what they did and
didnt seem like much. "deal with the client" or "bring jobs in".

Well, years later i become frieds with sales poeple and understood more. What they did, how, why etc.

Then I remmeber that one time i met hans zimmer.

and notice something peculiar about him that didnt understand at the time... he is a GREAT salesmen.


So the world of post production is filled with SALES poeple, yet in the filmscoring world there might be a few videos here and there or not that many comments about this specific thing that is SALES.
And obviously .. a ton of post about how to find work or how much to charge.

I actually have a BS in business management... yet no SALES clases.
and have a Synthesis degree from Berklee.. and yet no SALES there either.

I took it on myself to learn this. Asking sales poeple more specific questions. LEarning from other sources outside entertainment and reading up on anything that made sense in this topic.

SALES is basically HALF of the job of a film composer. And maybe about 80% of a new film composer.

I think im going to use this thread to just post articles and videos about SALES. As a general topic. And fill it like an archive about this topic to help composers out.

I might write a snippet of why I think each specific video might be usefull and how it relates to sales. but not really a debate to see if sales is or is not important or why composer care or dont. or if anyone disagrees. Its been 20 years dealing in the industry and IT IS something very inportant and every facet of hollywood deals with this in one way or another. Inside or outside of Hollywood doesnt matter either. it works anywhere.
But i think, just as me, many wont comprehend the inmense importance about this topic or see more depth to it than leanring just a few things or seeing it as just a stereotypical used car salesmen thing. So Just as learning music theory, mixing etc, Sales is something that takes time to learn and master and its always evolving. Some might have a natural inclination though.
Ill try to write some examples of why Sales is important or how it matters to filmscoring and try to bridge that gap i think its missing in the filmscoring world.


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## gsilbers (Sep 2, 2020)

1) The Email and Sales. 

The email side might be more important in the pandemic days but still anytime is important.


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## gsilbers (Sep 2, 2020)

2) Business Networking

His voice is a little annoying i know. but think about hans zimmer and all what he has done while you watch his actions. (or what youve seen about hans and his connections and random business);


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## gsilbers (Sep 2, 2020)

3) Raw selling

I know i know. sorry, Sales is filled with a specifci type of "guy" but its the same across the board. even if you are a shy female film composer, this stuff works.

Think not only about selling your score for a project.. but think about selling YOURSELF as a reliable worker that can be entrusted with an expensive score. OMG, Hans is the king of this. 



And its true about filmmakers stressing so much about that initial impression. I had to deal with the producer of Bones tv show and they changed something in the opening title sequence between season 5 and 6... it was so minor not even 8 different QC'ers notice. yet, a huge issue with this a-hole. oh yeah.. that guy was an ass. But he cared about that tiny thing due to impression of selling a new season to the audicne and network.


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## gsilbers (Sep 2, 2020)

4) Sales for Introverts

As a counterpoint to the high strung in your face sales.

This is more for me  Im shy but many of the sales people ive met where low key nice poeple.
And even not sales poeple but low key poeple who always got the gig. Like the recording engineer for no doubt, beasty boys and others which i met while assisting KC porter. Quiet guy buy always gave the improession of being very good and profesional. Said the right things and so on that can be seen in this video.


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## gsilbers (Sep 2, 2020)

5) Types of Sales people

Think of yourself as a salesman looking for a scoring gig and the type of sales person you are




There is plenty of these articules 
https://www.callboxinc.com/telemarketing/there-are-4-types-of-salespeople-which-one-are-you/
and variations about the type of sales.


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## gsilbers (Sep 2, 2020)

6) Basics about selling



Imagine being at a video game conference or indie film awards or showings and meeting new film makers.

Number 4 is the tehcnique Hans zimmer uses btw. And a great way to learn how much to charge along with #6. for example: finding out movies budget you can ask about the camera they shot it in, or the story and how many locations. Locations is a keyword for "money" lol.


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## brek (Sep 2, 2020)

Thought this was going to be a cheeky post about knowing about sales as in "discounts" on sample libraries. Great topic, though.

Working on an in-house production team, I got to see first hand how the amount of work took a nose-dive when the master salesperson left the company. Then, they wanted us to do the sales ourselves - which is a totally reasonable thing to do. As part of that effort they brought in a best-selling author and sales guru to coach us and we were given a personality test. I scored at the extreme far end of the spectrum on introversion.

In a spiel to the company this guru talked about how most people fall towards the middle of the spectrum - so it's OK to be _a little _introverted he says. So I asked about being on the far end of the spectrum - to which he bluntly replied that it would be a waste of my time and the company's time to have an extreme introvert involved in sales. On the one hand, I breathed a sigh of relief. On the the other hand - absolute panic. 

Hoping for more useful advice in the video about introverts you posted!


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## gsilbers (Sep 2, 2020)

7) Building Rapport

Youve probably seen these guys around social media or the news. but their info applies filmscoring and post for sure. ive seen it myself with several sales poeple for audio post at different events

And its related to point #4 and hans zimmer. He wasnt selling me anything, he wasnt talking filmscores or tech stuff.. he was just interested in my german jewish last name and spanish first name. sparking a more commonality rapport instead of "what do you do" or anything about the indistry. at a personal level. He listened and asked a question about me personally. a random guy who he didnt know. 
ITs a very small yet powerful detail in this sales world that escapes soo many people.


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## gsilbers (Sep 2, 2020)

8) How to be likable

There is plenty of these that borderline seem like some self help topic but in reality its an amazing technique for sales and getting a new gig

Metting new filmmakers at events or around town or even online you have short time so these sort of basic stuff work because there are all types of poeple.
I have a buddy who is the head of amazon post... who really didnt like talking about his job which i have soooo many questions... but asking about his daughters or the lakers and he lights up and rambles.
On the flipside, i also have a buddy who is the creator of phenas and ferb and producer for family guy.. and its the oposite, he ONLY wants to talk about his work. like a lot.
This is something i notice sales people do when talking to someone. be very fast in knowing this stuff and listen carefully and apply these small technques. Which are basically more of a common sense sometimes.
But ive seen sales people just ask or try to talk shop with the head of amazon post and its painfully obvious he wants out of there. while with the other friend the sales poeple or people trying to pull the "lets be interested in their life" are met with a short response and pivot to his job, cuz he knows thats what up 













8 Ways To Get People To Like You Immediately


New research shows that we make two very important judgements every time we meet someone new. Be ready for them so that you can make a strong first impression.




www.forbes.com






https://www.tenfold.com/sales-performance/tips-likeable-salespeople/








Top Sales Resources: Free Articles, Videos & Tips


Top sales resources to help you build lasting relationships with customers. Learn about tools which put the customer right at the heart of the deal.




www.salesforce.com






Ill have plenty of these because a lot of posts in VI and FB groups just say its about "networking" but thats it. like magicallty showing up at a networking even guarantees getting a movie.


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## gsilbers (Sep 2, 2020)

HEre is for networking events like awards shows, film festivals, conventions like NAB (you HAVE to check out NAB as a networking event) , Q&A for indie films etc 









Selling Strategies – 5 Proven Networking Techniques


Selling Strategies – 5 Proven Networking Techniques




www.webstrategiesinc.com


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## Christopher Rocky (Sep 2, 2020)

@gsilbers Thank you so much for these resources and the reminder, you are a top bloke to share this insight! wow that company you worked for sounds like an awesome break to have in the industry. 

I used to run a small business in manufacturing, long story, but I was required to do a lot of everything in the business, dealing with customers and debtors etc...

The single most important thing I found from that experience is Relationship, I think sometimes just focusing on the sale of something can be a bit dehumanizing, and in the end can burn relationships too.
I am assuming that this is actually what you mean when you say SALE though, that its not just about 'selling' yourself but also the relationship, along with the other resources about charisma and networking too. Thanks for sharing the clips I'm going to make a playlist and go through them. 

@brek I would not be suprised if 9/10 composers are on the introverted end of the scale!!!


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## Markus Kohlprath (Sep 3, 2020)

Christopher Rocky said:


> @gsilbers
> 
> @brek I would not be suprised if 9/10 composers are on the introverted end of the scale!!!


My guess is 9,9 out of 10.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 3, 2020)

The composers I have met who sell themselves well, tempted to name drop but I won’t, all have one skill in common. When they are talking to you they make you feel that the only thing in the world that matters to them is hearing what YOU will say next.

Less effective people, like me, are too interested in what THEY, are going to say next.


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## gsilbers (Sep 3, 2020)

9) how to network in Hollywood - video editor edition 

The same things apply to film composers









“Empire” Editor Has 7 Steps to Network Successfully in Hollywood


The editor for shows such as "Empire" and "Glee" shares wise advice on how to successfully network in Hollywood--even when you don't know anyone.




blog.frame.io


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## GtrString (Sep 3, 2020)

Great thread! I’ve always struggled with understanding sales. What is it other than two parties agree to make a transaction?

I understand branding and communication, in fact I majored in it at uni, but the trickery, seduction and mythic of sales is still gibberish to me. I can’t for the life of it, get a grasp of wtf people are doing to make that sale. Im still inclined to believe it doesnt exist.


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## GNP (Sep 3, 2020)

Guess the rule is, no matter what, never talk shop, but talk about other things. And don't try to slip in abit of shop after you've succeeded at talking about other things - people want to get to know you as a person, and not as a salesperson.

Then walk away, wondering if you've "made the sale", like a goddamned fool, and nobody's probably gonna get back to you at all anyway.


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## gsilbers (Sep 11, 2020)

HEre is a class that seems cool. 









How To Get Scoring Gigs


Learn How To Get More Work Than You Ever Imagined Possible




scoring.academy


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## gsilbers (Sep 11, 2020)

And how to promote yourself


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## Rory (Sep 11, 2020)

George Gershwin started out as a song plugger selling sheet music. He got some pretty good contacts from that gig 

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_plugger


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## gsilbers (Sep 11, 2020)

GtrString said:


> Great thread! I’ve always struggled with understanding sales. What is it other than two parties agree to make a transaction?
> 
> I understand branding and communication, in fact I majored in it at uni, but the trickery, seduction and mythic of sales is still gibberish to me. I can’t for the life of it, get a grasp of wtf people are doing to make that sale. Im still inclined to believe it doesnt exist.




sales for me got me by surprise and was like today years old when i learned about it besides the generic things i learned at business school.

as an example to ilustrate how hardcore it is.

at fotokem which is a leading post studio that does like every tv show.. the sales people there need to get a new project in the door every month or two. and it cannot be the same one like the simpsons next season, which is a show they do. if a sales person doesnt get a new show in 3 months they are out the door.

I think they use a custom service called studiosystems which is like imdb pro but on steroids to find out new projects and have to call, text, meet etc which any new shows that might be forming and are in production or maybe think of being shot. go out to baseball games and lunches almost every day.
So they have to call or meet poeple every day eevry hour. kinda like how bojack horseman is but more sales related. meet and greets. students at uscla or usc count as those would be the future of post.

A lot of sales poepl are not trained. the ex-head of mpaa was the head of sales at the studio i worked at that was able to bring tv shows like westworld that won an emmy. and all the amazon tv shows.
the guy passed awat recently, but he was very cool. its bascially being a friend on demand.
the charisma helps but ive seen more low brow sales people also.
but at the end, it was his connections thorugh mpaa and good vibe that helped him get more sales.


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## JohnG (Sep 11, 2020)

this thread gets the Most Needed Award, for all of us. I think probably everyone on here (except You Know Who) needs to watch all these videos.

I certainly will. As soon as I stop hiding under my desk...


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## GtrString (Sep 11, 2020)

I take it that Im right that sales is not really sales, but the art of creating relationships that imply reciprocity of some kind? Like the ability to create interest and desire in the AIDA model? A sort of seduction, as Dan Ariely has written about..

«Great brands avoid selling products—they know it's far more effective to seduce people through emotion, engagement, and experience than to push products on them.»









To Win Customers, Stop Selling And Start Seducing


If you want to win over customers, stop selling and start seducing them instead. This was the underlying message of a talk I heard recently by behavioral economics professor and bestselling author Dan Ariely. Ariely has mounds of data to prove that people have irrational tendencies. His studies...




www.forbes.com





Most musicians are great at getting the attention, some are good at the intrest and desire part, but its the action, getting people to act, buy, accept, value, pay more for, sign, ask for ect. your music, that is the tricky part. Seems like the process before action is all important.

The mechanism of push/ pull has always been interesting, if you lean forward toward others, they have to lean back (you achieve a push), but if you lean back, they have to lean forward (you can achieve a pull). Its harder to achieve the pull, but maybe if you have a quality relation it is easier. The push most often push people completely away, which is why »sales» have gotten a bad reputation. Still why so many use this?


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## Allen Constantine (Sep 11, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> HEre is a class that seems cool.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing it, man! 

Did you try this one? Seems interesting although I don't really know what it's offering as it doesn't have a detailed description?!?

Maybe I need to reach out to Evan about it.


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