# Increasing the "Oomph" Of Instruments



## erodred (Jun 16, 2020)

Hello all,

I am using Nucleus as my first library to compose with. And the one thing I notice is how loud the violins can get when compared with the trumpets. And I deduced that it is because it is of the number of players (and probably mic positioning when recording if they are set in place in an orchestra seating), 16 violins vs 2 trumpets.

The software I am using is Cubase. And I tried to max out the volumes of the trumpets to overcome the string players and make it much louder. And I am realizing I have two approaches with this in Cubase. I can select the recorded midi region and copy and paste and overlap them. Another method is to duplicate the track after I have made my recording and that should also give me some more control over them.

Which method do you all typically do, or am I doing this completely wrong entirely?




Thanks!

Edit:
Since I changed up my setup, I confused new people to the thread. The question still stands.

My DAW is now Logic due to the acquisition of a mac mini. I didn't mention it before in this first post but I always was using VEP 7. 

Apologies for confusing people earlier. 

😢


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## jbuhler (Jun 16, 2020)

Assuming you are already using CC1, CC11, and velocity to control the dynamics:

Use a gain function in Cubase to turn up the trumpets (or down the violins).
Use the volume slider in Kontakt to turn up the trumpets (or down the violins)
Use the master volume in Kontakt to turn up the Trumpets (or down the violins)

I would recommend finding some music that you have the score to and a recording you want to emulate the balance of and mock up a few short representative passages using that to get the balances of the library in the right ballpark.


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## erodred (Jun 17, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> Assuming you are already using CC1, CC11, and velocity to control the dynamics:
> 
> Use a gain function in Cubase to turn up the trumpets (or down the violins).
> Use the volume slider in Kontakt to turn up the trumpets (or down the violins)
> ...



Thank you. I will play around with the volumes some more. I am mostly using headphones to not disturb my fiancé when playing so I felt the impact of how loud the i instruments were. I will play with the volumes in Kontakt to see if it works out better. My mixer in Cubase seems to control the Kontakt volume (and I am using NI Komplete A49)


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## jbuhler (Jun 17, 2020)

You can control the volumes in various ways. That’s the point. The volume on the main mixer in the DAW is only one of those points and not the best for setting and balancing the basic volumes. 

Besides the mixing slider, Cubase likely has a gain or volume tool that works as an insert in the mixing channel. I don’t use Cubase but all of my DAWs have this. That’s one point you can use. 

The master volume of the Kontakt instance is another point you can control the volume. 

The volume slider in the Kontakt instrument is another point you can control the volume. This is often linked to CC7.

CC11 (expression) is another point that many instruments allow you to control the volume. 

CC1 (modwheel) is often assigned to dynamics, and this crossfades through different dynamic layers. Although dynamic layers also affect volume, these layers are produced with different samples so you’ll get a timbral change as well. 

But the main thing is learning how the library needs to be set up to properly balance its instruments against one another. The best way to do that is to practice on some music where you have reference recordings.


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## erodred (Jun 17, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> You can control the volumes in various ways. That’s the point. The volume on the main mixer in the DAW is only one of those points and not the best for setting and balancing the basic volumes.
> 
> Besides the mixing slider, Cubase likely has a gain or volume tool that works as an insert in the mixing channel. I don’t use Cubase but all of my DAWs have this. That’s one point you can use.
> 
> ...



Thanks!


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## JohnG (Jun 20, 2020)

hi @erodred 

You might find this useful. There's one paragraph on setting your listening volume; that might seem elementary, but getting it right is surprisingly important.






Spitfire Audio — Academy


The Academy brings together the most popular educational videos from the Spitfire Audio family – masterclasses that have amassed almost 10 million views. It is also where you’ll find brand new education videos appearing regularly.



www.spitfireaudio.com





Welcome to the forum.

Kind regards,

John


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## José Herring (Jun 20, 2020)

erodred said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I am using Nucleus as my first library to compose with. And the one thing I notice is how loud the violins can get when compared with the trumpets. And I deduced that it is because it is of the number of players (and probably mic positioning when recording if they are set in place in an orchestra seating), 16 violins vs 2 trumpets.
> 
> ...


This only happens when the natural balance of the orchestra has been tampered with. Even 16 violins playing as loud as they can, can be drown out by one trumpet playing double forte. The trumpet is loud and a section of them area even louder.

So one of two things happened in the creation of this library: a) they recorded the violins hotter than the trumpets or b) after recording they boosted the levels or normalized the levels of the violins. 

Now you may want this. I just did a contemporary hybrid rock hip hop orchestral cue and I need those stacc strings louder than the low brass. So I just raised the volume. But... if you're doing a balanced orchestration then it tends to be a problem. In the hybrid piece the strings were kind of isolated and I made them up front so that I can bring in the Tbones and Horns FF and the main string rhythm could still be heard. But, if I were doing a piece that was more traditional orchestration, I would have just used strings in their natural dynamic range and not worried too much if the brass takes them over or put strings at forte or double forte and placed brass at mf. 

At mezzo-forte you can balance the whole orchestra. Above that, and things get way out of balance as you'll approach the max loudness of some instruments while brass will have a lot more headroom, for lack of a better word.


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## erodred (Jun 20, 2020)

JohnG said:


> hi @erodred
> 
> You might find this useful. There's one paragraph on setting your listening volume; that might seem elementary, but getting it right is surprisingly important.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that. I will give it a read.


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## erodred (Jun 20, 2020)

josejherring said:


> This only happens when the natural balance of the orchestra has been tampered with. Even 16 violins playing as loud as they can, can be drown out by one trumpet playing double forte. The trumpet is loud and a section of them area even louder.
> 
> So one of two things happened in the creation of this library: a) they recorded the violins hotter than the trumpets or b) after recording they boosted the levels or normalized the levels of the violins.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I need to learn about how to play those intstruments with those dynamics. I know I can edit the range. But still hard to say if my velocity is pushing me into the forte end of things.


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## erodred (Jun 20, 2020)

From my limited testing, I learned I can just play with the CC 7 and CC 11 for volume and expression to get the sort of differing volumes that I want. Playing it as is seems to not do so well otherwise. CC1 for modulation also helps if I make the trumpets go high and the violins go softer. I dont know if it is based on how I set upthe VEP and Cubase template.

I just have instances for all the instrument sections and an instance of kontakt for all instruments and midi channels for their own articulations. So midi port 1 ch 1-5 covers my 5 violion articulations of legato, sustain, spaccato, pizz, tremolo. And I do this for all the instruments. But their outputs are all still 1/2. I learned recently that instead of tracks I probably should have used outputs. That way the instruments each go to their own channel instead. Maybe I am overthinking or getting myself lost in the woods. So far it seems exciting, but with me presently moving I have to hold myself together before I can spend my hours digging into the library.


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## José Herring (Jun 20, 2020)

erodred said:


> From my limited testing, I learned I can just play with the CC 7 and CC 11 for volume and expression to get the sort of differing volumes that I want. Playing it as is seems to not do so well otherwise. CC1 for modulation also helps if I make the trumpets go high and the violins go softer. I dont know if it is based on how I set upthe VEP and Cubase template.
> 
> I just have instances for all the instrument sections and an instance of kontakt for all instruments and midi channels for their own articulations. So midi port 1 ch 1-5 covers my 5 violion articulations of legato, sustain, spaccato, pizz, tremolo. And I do this for all the instruments. But their outputs are all still 1/2. I learned recently that instead of tracks I probably should have used outputs. That way the instruments each go to their own channel instead. Maybe I am overthinking or getting myself lost in the woods. So far it seems exciting, but with me presently moving I have to hold myself together before I can spend my hours digging into the library.


You're on the right track. 

One of the things I did that helped was that I listened to La Mer with the score and looking at the volume meter in my DAW. That piece has every standard orchestral instrument in just about every possible combination. So I learned where things were at relative to the dynamic markings and where that fell on the volume meter. I use that as a base but in truth in modern times you really can't stick to that. The softs are way too soft to be broadcast on film TV and radio. But when mixing and do stick to that then I'll master it to get things broadcast ready.


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## suburst (Jun 21, 2020)

if the harmonics of violins are overpowering the brass etc, then you should add some more harmonics to the brass, and maybe lower or use an eq to cut some of the nasty aggressive frequencies of violinsyou can try using fabfilter saturn and use the high mid band, etc etc, another great one is voxengo OVC 128


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## Markus Kohlprath (Jun 21, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> Besides the mixing slider, Cubase likely has a gain or volume tool that works as an insert in the mixing channel. I don’t use Cubase but all of my DAWs have this. That’s one point you can use.


No need for an insert in cubase. Cubase even has a dedicated Pre Channel on every Audio and group track where you can set gain, phase and locut/hicut. Very handy and used all the time by myself.


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## erodred (Jul 6, 2020)

Hello all again,

So I managed to finish unpacking from a move and went to work on trying to solve my trumpet issue. 

Again using the Nucleus instrument and playing around with some of the settings, violins still seem to very easily get large in volume with modulation and adjusting the main volume with cc7. I do notice cc7 when it changes from 0 to 127 in Cubase, it changes from -inf to +0.0 in VEP Kontakt. 

But trumpets, (in this case the patch consists of 3 trumpets) I seem to have to push the mixer to +6 dB to get it comparable. 

It makes it tough when I am learning to play in a piece and have to reach for my speakers in panic to lower the volume because I had to crank it for the trumpets. And then hearing it over all. I went into the controller lanes in Cubase and drew in flat line at max for the trumpets just to see if I can get some strength in it. But to no luck. Meanwhile the strings just get powerful so easily.

Is it the library itself or am I missing a setting?


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## Fredeke (Jul 7, 2020)

Short practical answer:

An orchestra has less trumpets than strings because trumpets are louder. You didn't get that because the library doesn't reproduce the real level of instruments. But have you tried simply decreasing the strings' level, or increasing the trumpets' level, to recreate the natural balance of the orchestra? It should not be more complicated than that.

And now for some theoretical windbaggery :

The reason one section sounds louder than another is probably they were all recorded at the maximum possible level (to get full advantage of all 16 or 24 bits), regardless of how many players or how loud the actual acoustic sound was in the studio. And since different tones can produce very different levels (both physically and physiologically) for a same peak-to-peak amplitude (which is what the recording engineer maximized), the lack of balance you hear is normal.

Now, I don't know the library you're talking about, so I may be wrong on this particular one. But as a general rule, libraries do not come pre-mixed for you. You should not expect your sections to sound balanced when setting all tracks to the same level.


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## erodred (Jul 7, 2020)

Fredeke said:


> Short practical answer:
> 
> An orchestra has less trumpets than strings because trumpets are louder. You didn't get that because the library doesn't reproduce the real level of instruments. But have you tried simply decreasing the strings' level, or increasing the trumpets' level, to recreate the natural balance of the orchestra? It should not be more complicated than that.
> 
> ...



Thank you for that answer! 

The library is Nucleus. I will assume it is the recording and that I just need to move some sliders/faders around to get the volume of the sound I want. Perhaps the strings were also recorded closer to the mics. 

Just trying to narrow down and see if I am messing up a setting or anything.


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## erodred (Aug 23, 2020)

Hello. I am back again. Trying to solve the mysteries of composing.

So I have the volume adjusted so that my violins sound at a nice level for my ears. But the trumpets were low so I had to crank that up to +6 dB to get it at a good level for playing in my notes. The next challenge was woodwinds. To get the 2 flutes at a good level to hear, I had to get it up to +12dB. This is all done in Kontakt. I am wondering if its worth playing with mixer levels in VEP as well. 

Am I just having hearing problems and I cant hear the right decibels or something (just turned 30.... yay!) or is it really just in how the instruments were recorded?

Thanks again! Really need help to get my going on something.


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## JohnG (Aug 23, 2020)

Either you're mixing Library A (recorded very softly) with Library B (recorded really loudly) or something is way off somewhere.

It's fine to use heterogeneous libraries, naturally, but +6 on trumpets??? to be loud enough for violins????

Maybe post screen shots of your mixer and VE Pro levels?


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## tc9000 (Aug 24, 2020)

Maybe this video will help:



... I have to re-watch this every month or so 🙃


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## erodred (Aug 24, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Either you're mixing Library A (recorded very softly) with Library B (recorded really loudly) or something is way off somewhere.
> 
> It's fine to use heterogeneous libraries, naturally, but +6 on trumpets??? to be loud enough for violins????
> 
> Maybe post screen shots of your mixer and VE Pro levels?


















Logic side has sliders all at zero.

It is connected as AU3 muti output. Each instrument gets an output with their own set of articulations. 
The strings are all at +0 dB and I can hear them fine when playing them. But I have to meddle with the trumpets and winds a bit. And I am beginning to think I should for the percussion. I dont know why at neutral levels for everything the strings seem so strong. This library is Nucleus if it is not obvious.

I have Hollywood Gold as well and from my testing I dont have to adjust any volume levels drastically or even at all to even hear the instruments playing. And no modwheel either to push it higher. 

Ive played wiht modulation and expressoin and occassionally just draw things at the ceiling just to hear it, but it seems i need that +6 for Brass and +12 for Winds. I will check out the video that tc9000 linked. Thanks!


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## JohnG (Aug 24, 2020)

When I have a problem like this, I start by turning down the loudest things. If everything is pushed to +12 in any section, most likely the best starting point is to lower everything by 8-10 dB right off. Maybe even minus 12?

I don't have Nucleus so I can't help with that. Maybe another user who has it?

Also, remember to get that sound pressure monitor so you can set your monitoring to some consistent level. Whether it's 70 or 85 dB or whatever, that is the first step. Use pink noise.

Best of luck, and for goodness sakes, have fun!

Kind regards,

John


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## erodred (Aug 24, 2020)

JohnG said:


> When I have a problem like this, I start by turning down the loudest things. If everything is pushed to +12 in any section, most likely the best starting point is to lower everything by 8-10 dB right off. Maybe even minus 12?
> 
> I don't have Nucleus so I can't help with that. Maybe another user who has it?
> 
> ...



In my experience, the sound meter would not even detect much for the other orchestral instruments. If everything is at 0 dB I find i cant hear them at all through speakers or headphones until I start increasing volume in Kontakt.


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## JohnG (Aug 24, 2020)

erodred said:


> In my experience, the sound meter would not even detect much for the other orchestral instruments. If everything is at 0 dB I find i cant hear them at all through speakers or headphones until I start increasing volume in Kontakt.



Get some pink noise and play it back with your faders at zero, adjusting your amplifier settings until it's as loud as your maximum monitoring. That shouldn't be too loud, but loud enough so you say to yourself, "that's loud." Like music for an action scene or the Landing Of The Mother Ship. 

Most DAWs include pink noise (at least white noise) under "utilities" or something -- use the DAW's help function to find it). 

Once you set your overall volume, you have a good starting point. If you have a sound pressure monitor, so much the better.

Unless you have done all that you'll be struggling. It doesn't really take too long.


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## erodred (Aug 24, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Get some pink noise and play it back with your faders at zero, adjusting your amplifier settings until it's as loud as your maximum monitoring. That shouldn't be too loud, but loud enough so you say to yourself, "that's loud." Like music for an action scene or the Landing Of The Mother Ship.
> 
> Most DAWs include pink noise (at least white noise) under "utilities" or something -- use the DAW's help function to find it).
> 
> ...



Oh I see, okay I will do that. And then I will just adjust my monitor and UR12 volume levels as well to get the maximum with it?

Thanks for this. Will see if Logic has this built-in. I do have cubase 10 pro as well and debating if I should attempt to use that on Mac or not.

EDIT: https://support.apple.com/kb/PH27652?locale=en_US&viewlocale=en_US

Found that one quickly. Or i can use a youtube pink noise video.


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## Kent (Aug 24, 2020)

I highly recommend reading through this thread for context, but here's a comment of mine regarding setting up proper monitoring:





__





What exactly is your mixing & mastering workflow in order to deliver a good sounding mix?


Learning from Mastering engineers is great for ear training, as they're making tiny changes (that often make a huge difference) that you really have to learn how to hear. This has been one of the hardest things for me. It really is the little changes. My instructor at the Studio Production...




vi-control.net





Do NOT make any mix or template decisions until you know you can trust what you're hearing!


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## JohnG (Aug 24, 2020)

erodred said:


> Or i can use a youtube pink noise video.



I would never, ever use a Youtube video to do this. Use one of your DAWs. You're going to play music through the DAW, not a browser / your computer's built-in audio.

Hopefully you have a professional interface?

With Youtube, you don't know how loud it really is to start with. Even if the posting person is knowledgeable and conscientious, there's no telling what your browser and computer and Youtube's crazy sound squasher might do to the signal.


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## erodred (Aug 24, 2020)

JohnG said:


> I would never, ever use a Youtube video to do this. Use one of your DAWs. You're going to play music through the DAW, not a browser / your computer's built-in audio.
> 
> Hopefully you have a professional interface?
> 
> With Youtube, you don't know how loud it really is to start with. Even if the posting person is knowledgeable and conscientious, there's no telling what your browser and computer and Youtube's crazy sound squasher might do to the signal.



I have a steinberg UR12, with some Mackie studio monitors and AKG semi-open studio headphones. That is my budget so far for anything.

Edit: If interested:
My keyboard is Komplete Kontrol A49
Mac Mini master - i7, 64gb
old gaming PC turned into a slave (it was going to be my main but wanted a Mac for other reasons)
i7 6700k, 64gb memory, and all samples are on a 1TB SSD.


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## labornvain (Aug 24, 2020)

Something is wrong here, and it isn't Nucleus.

I've had nucleus for a while now and I've never noticed a problem with it. So I decided to do a little test and loaded up the "3 trumpets" patch and the "16 violins" patch simultaneously.

As I figured, the trumpets almost drown out the violins, as one would expect, and the gain staging on each patch is almost perfect. They're both showing up around around -18db.

I did this test by creating two instrument tracks, each with a single instance of Kontact, and each with only one patch loaded into Kontact. Each patch was set to default "modern mix" mode.

I did not alter any thing.

So in tems of the trumpets and strings, unless you have a different version of Nucleus, your issue lies elsewhere.

Now, as for the "2 Flutes" patch, it is gain staged extremely low. Reminds me of some Spitfire libraries. But as has already been pointed out, the fix is extremely easy with all the different places you can adjust levels.

Just one thing, though. On a VI, if you plan on usin CC7 or Kontakt's master volume, or even your DAW's fader for the channel, don't use it for automation. Many libraries have their own reverb send/return thing built in, so if you "ride the fader" so to speak, you are also riding the Reverb Return for that patch. Which sounds stupid and unrealistic. This applies to any patch with reverb really. 

So if yoou need changing dynamics, use CC11. 

As for instruments gain staged poorly, the best fixthat is by clicking on the wrench, scroll down to InsertFX, open it, click on the little plus sign in the AddFX box, and in the Utilities submenu, select "Gainer." Crank it up! Resave your patch as needed.


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## erodred (Aug 24, 2020)

labornvain said:


> Something is wrong here, and it isn't Nucleus.
> 
> I've had nucleus for a while now and I've never noticed a problem with it. So I decided to do a little test and loaded up the "3 trumpets" patch and the "16 violins" patch simultaneously.
> 
> ...



So what could my problem be?


Without touching Mod and having zero +dB on kontakt sliders, VEP faders, Logic Faders, the strings are just significantly louder when I press a key. and the trumpets just dont sound so loud. And the flutes I dont hear at all.

Is it my speakers? Or is this a pure software situation?


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## Kent (Aug 24, 2020)

erodred said:


> So what could my problem be?
> 
> 
> Without touching Mod and having zero +dB on kontakt sliders, VEP faders, Logic Faders, the strings are just significantly louder when I press a key. and the trumpets just dont sound so loud. And the flutes I dont hear at all.
> ...


Did you read the thing I linked to at GS?


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## erodred (Aug 24, 2020)

kmaster said:


> Did you read the thing I linked to at GS?



Haha the S word for GS is somthing that can not get through work filters. So will check that one at lunch on my phone later.


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## labornvain (Aug 24, 2020)

erodred said:


> So what could my problem be?
> 
> 
> Without touching Mod and having zero +dB on kontakt sliders, VEP faders, Logic Faders, the strings are just significantly louder when I press a key. and the trumpets just dont sound so loud. And the flutes I dont hear at all.
> ...


So wait. We're in logic now? Cuz your first post said you use Cubase. Then vep made an appearance. And now logic.

The whole procedure of troubleshooting is to strip everything down to its most basic level, like my little test did, and then work your way out from there. You seem to be doing the opposite, making everything more complex as you go.

Good luck


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## erodred (Aug 24, 2020)

labornvain said:


> So wait. We're in logic now? Cuz your first post said you use Cubase. Then vep made an appearance. And now logic.
> 
> The whole procedure of troubleshooting is to strip everything down to its most basic level, like my little test did, and then work your way out from there. You seem to be doing the opposite, making everything more complex as you go.
> 
> Good luck



Haha yeah I was on windows with Cubase, but then got a mac mini and decided to use logic. Sorry for the confusion. I thought I did mention I was using VEP before as well?

If those interested want, I will just load an instance of Kontakt on my slave, and then put all the instruments in and see if it works. Then I could possibly start figuring if its when it gets entered into VEP that my volumes go out of wack.


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## erodred (Aug 24, 2020)

labornvain said:


> Something is wrong here, and it isn't Nucleus.
> 
> I've had nucleus for a while now and I've never noticed a problem with it. So I decided to do a little test and loaded up the "3 trumpets" patch and the "16 violins" patch simultaneously.
> 
> ...




I ran a test on my slave machine running Kontakt as Standalone. You are correct that the trumpets are actually very strong.

So now something seems to have been messed up when it gets put into VEP and then loaded onto Logic.

So I went to a new untitled instance of VEP and I loaded the 16 violins sustain, the 3 trumpets sustain and the 2 flutes sustain and..... they didnt need any added gain. So something happened when I set up my template to kill my trumpets long ago.

So I need to figure out how to send this person a cookie in the mail.

I also need to figure out what setting would have caused my gain to get killed like that in the VEP pro template....

EDIT: But I also found that I had this stupid mistake on my end. Thanks to giving me the idea of comparing a stand alone Kontakt.






The flutes had it at like -20 something cant remember. Trumpets were at -17. Strings were at 0. If this isnt the issue then I dont know what is haha. But I changed this for both trumpets and Strings and I got my desired Oomph.

Thanks everyone for the help. I still need to do some gain staging of course. I now have some confidence in moving forward with my sketching as a noob


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