# Orchestrating Woodwinds in action cue?



## fustrun (Aug 1, 2018)

Hey guys!

I was wondering if you use all of the orchestral instruments when creating action/trailer/aggressive cues?
Do you use Clarinets, oboes, flutes and ect.. , i have only found use for bassoons mostly doubling up what the brass does, what are your thoughts about this?
If you do then what are your orchestration/layering techniques? or do you just leave it empty.

- Nir


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## VgsA (Aug 1, 2018)

I'd say it's totally up to the composer's preference. I'm sorry I couldn't find anything better on my SoundCloud for a chase scene, plus this was just a sketch, but I was intending to add way more woodwind presence:



I think the runs are specially effective, but you can also draw figures with other instruments not only with the purpose of doubling, but also adding more content instead of giving the role to a synth. Also, the nature of the track will allow one thing or another. In my example, I would have totally added mid-low clusters here and there, but that works for this specific track which is oriented towards a more horror-ish scene, I don't think it would work on a car chase. Then again, maybe I would try it and like it.

But, in my personal oppinion, woodwinds are often forgotten in nowadays' action music. Not to mention trailer.


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## Leandro Gardini (Aug 1, 2018)

I use the entire woodwind section all the time. Even though they are not clearly heard sometimes they are playing.
Th woodwind section have much more value than what the modern kind of filmic soundtrack asks.
Here is an example. Even in the brassy parts they are playing FF.


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## JJP (Aug 1, 2018)

fustrun said:


> Do you use Clarinets, oboes, flutes and ect.. , i have only found use for bassoons mostly doubling up what the brass does, what are your thoughts about this?



Woodwinds don't get you much if you're simply doubling full brass sections at the same pitch. Loud brass covers them up. They work better doubling individual brass instruments to change the texture or doing something different from what the brass is doing.

Bassoon can work because it adds a bit of an edge to the lower brass sound, though again if it's loud the results are diminished. Contrabassoon can be effective because it can add a lower octave. Likewise, the piccolo and flute can add another octave above the brass.

Consult some orchestration books and check some classical scores to see how the woodwinds shine on their own and in conjunction with other sections.

Woodwinds are often neglected by sample-based composers because they don't behave like strings a brass which are more homogenous in tone. The timbre of woodwinds varies based on how they are combined and doubled, so it takes a bit of study to get them to work well.


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## MartinH. (Aug 1, 2018)

I'm trying to transcribe/make a mockup of this track: 




I can't hear if or where any woodwinds are playing at all. Can someone help me with this and point to a timecode in the track where they are playing, or recommend bandpass frequencies to use while "hunting" for woodwinds? Or are there just none?


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## Lassi Tani (Aug 1, 2018)

I do use quite a lot, but in many modern action cues, woodwinds are neglected, which is a pity. Woodwinds can bring a lot to an action cue, when they're played to their strengths.

Here's how JW used woodwinds in TIE Fighter Attack:



High woodwinds (piccolos, flutes, oboes, clarinets) with horns and trumpets (very effective)
Low woodwinds (bassoons, contrabassoon) with trombones and tuba
Creating motion with runs
Creating textures
Here he's using high woodwinds with a xylophone and a piano to create a rhythmic pattern:



As JJP said, you could get an orchestration book, such as Adler's The Study of Orchestration.


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## Piano Pete (Aug 1, 2018)

My answer: it depends on the project, and it really is affected by what you have decided should be the musical vocabulary used throughout the project. If something doesnt need them, I wouldnt add them just for the sake of having them in there.


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## Syneast (Aug 1, 2018)

I mostly just let them double my high and low strings to create a sort of magical sheen on top and a low growl in the bass. I fell in with using them like that after hearing this section from the new Tron soundtrack (@ 2.07):



I always tend to use a full ensemble patch for that. I have no idea how to actually arrange something for individual woodwinds aside from letting them play within their range (flute/clarinet/oboe for melody and bassoon/contrabassoon for bass). I have also used them for low/mid chords when I need something quieter than brass.

Just woodwinds alone tend to have a sweet, magical or whimsical tone when they are not doubled with anything, which makes them less useful for action. Action cues that feature a lot of woodwinds tend to have a sort of retro/cartoonish feel.


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## Wally Garten (Aug 1, 2018)

IMO, bass clarinet, bassoon, and contrabassoon can be really great solo instruments for that uneasy feeling underlying a quiet moment before it all goes to hell. I also think both upper and lower wind staccatos can do great work as a propulsive element for a chase scene. There is a slight tendency for these uses to sound old-fashioned, and indeed the only thing I have on Soundcloud at the moment that shows these ideas off is deliberately intended to sound like vintage Hollywood, not the modern post-Zimmer hybrid vibe at all. Still, you can get an idea of what I'm talking about. (Roughly 4:02 for the bassoon in solo, and 5:51 for staccato flutes.)


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## fustrun (Aug 6, 2018)

Thank you guys for the references, i was thinking more like in two steps from hell and hybrid scores .. that is where i have really had my curiosity stricken.


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## NoamL (Aug 6, 2018)

hi @fustrun

Woodwinds are not used much or at all in modern music unfortunately. Even 2SFH largely use strings + brass as you can see in these references:





Although they do use winds on some more conservative tracks.

To understand why woodwinds are being used less (instead of kvetching about it, although I do think it's sad) it's important to ask why does anyone write for woodwinds anyway?

In the traditional orchestra, woodwinds can't play forever like the strings, and they don't have a huge dramatic dynamic range like the brass. So why are they even there? Because each woodwind sounds unique. They are a reserve of variety & color which can be deployed skillfully to make music sound ever-changing and compelling. 

Not only does each of the 9 main woodwind instruments sound different, but most of them have their ranges split up into three or four "Registers" that each sound remarkably different.

If you take out the woodwinds the orchestra basically has 5 reserves of color: high strings, low strings, horns, trumpets and low brass. Sure there are nuances within each group, each string of each stringed instrument sounds slightly different etc., but these distinctions of color & tone are nothing compared to even the difference between an oboe and an English horn!

There are so many passages in classical symphonies where the exact same melody is played first by an oboe then a clarinet, or by a flute than an English horn, and just the change of instrument creates an emotional nuance.

Also using woodwinds in unexpected ways was, for the classical masters, a way of creating sounds nobody had ever heard before. Stravinsky was a master of this. Which hints at why woodwinds are not being used anymore!

So why are winds being used less? Because of synthesizers. The demands on each score to sound different, and to have a "sonic fingerprint" matching its film, are greater than ever before. And synths can create a far greater variety of timbral color than the orchestral winds. Ultimately what makes a score like "Man Of Steel" instantly distinguishable from "Dunkirk" is a collection of custom sounds - much more than the compositional material, I'd argue. Modular synths can create almost any sound you can think of. Synthesizers aren't subbing out the role of strings & brass, but they can take on the same job description as the winds.

So therefore, winds _do _still have a place but it's in scoring where you're mostly _not_ using synthesizers. The post-2000 scores of John Williams and Alan Silvestri are excellent examples of using winds and not sounding dated or cheesy.

You asked about scoring woodwinds during action/aggressive music. In this role, they're used as an additional rhythmic-element to the strings and brass:



in this style of writing JW generally orchestrates the winds in large unisons and octaves so that they can stand up to the brass and strings. Color becomes less important (remember, you lose uniqueness of color when you combine all the winds together).

Also when orchestrating the winds in tutti passages, the winds tend to get forced "up and down." The clarinets, flutes and oboes go up above the staff so they can be heard above the trumpets which are generally playing in the upper-middle of the treble staff (In concert pitch!). The bassoons and contras go down to their bass register where they double the cellos and basses in bass lines. Of course if you write winds like this _all_ the time it gets boring.

What makes JW's writing so masterful is that he turns on a dime, between "tutti winds" with their runs and accents, solo melodic winds adding variety and color, textural winds (trills & flutters), and every other use you can think of. This is a great cue to follow all of that. Just pick one woodwind section (flutes, oboe family, clarinets, or bassoons) and follow it through the piece and look at all the different things they do:


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## TimCox (Aug 6, 2018)

Much of my action work delegates the woodwinds to coloring other lines or supporting chords. Keep in mind that just because your woodwinds aren't "audible" per se, they're still serving some kind of function. A fun usage for the high/med winds (flutes down to clarinets) is doubling the harp to bring it out a little. Especially clarinets, they tend to blend with harps very well.


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## Zee (Aug 6, 2018)

Check out Austin Wintory's score for The Banner Saga Series he only used Winds and Brass with soloists and vocals 
Ones that do stand out to me from the first game


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