# Why would you post on a composition review thread? Or why not?



## Guy Bacos (Oct 7, 2010)

Following the comments of Mike and jsaras on this thread:

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... o=1#239815

I thought it would be more appropriate and interesting to have its own thread.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 7, 2010)

There are several reasons why I do not.

1. Many here are more concerned with certain things than I am. I would not for instance be interested in reading the the kind of comment that is like "nice piece, but at bar 44 on the 3rd quarter note it sounds synthy so you need to use a different sample or automate the filter" kind of comment.

2. There are people whose comments I would respect but more whose I would not and there is no way to get one without the other.

3. There are fanboys of certain libraries who will not comment appreciatively of your piece if you like ones they do not. (not you, Guy. Although you are a VSL guy, you do not do that I know.)

4. Like every other community real or virtual if you are outspoken you make friends and enemies and you cannot necessarily know when a comment is made that is not colored by the commenter's like/dislike of you.

5. I know what I am doing and I have been doing this a long time and so I rarely feel the need of advice but on the occasions I do, I can send it to people I respect, some of whom may be here, and ask them for comments privately.

But there is certainly a need for places for people to do this and this place is as good as any for that if one wants that, as there are some really talented, knowledgeable and fair minded people here. But for me, I choose not to post or comment on others publicly, only privately.


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## Ian Dorsch (Oct 7, 2010)

I really enjoy listening to other peoples' stuff and offering praise and (hopefully) constructive comments, but I most frequently check VI Control during quiet moments at my day job, and Soundcloud and similar services are blocked by the office firewall, so I usually have to make a special effort to go back and listen later. Needless to say, it doesn't happen as frequently as I would like. 

I am personally very appreciative of feedback I've received from my few posts in the Member Composition forum, and I hope to be able return the favor as much as possible. Plus, it's always nice to be inspired by some of the really top notch pieces that pop up from time to time (Guy, you are responsible for a few of those ).


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## Hannes_F (Oct 7, 2010)

I enjoy reading, listening and posting here because it kills the time when bouncing or opening a project or whyever my computers have me wait.

But that is not the only reason, the other is that some of the finest musicians in the world meet here. I mean this literally, here are those that have dedicated their life to bring out the best of what they have inside, and do whatever it takes technically to realize it. I feel really honored to be a part of this community.

That being said I wished there were more discussion about musical issues. I mean the point from where it is not so interesting any more which library was used or whether something of it was real, yada yada. There comes a point where we should talk about form, phrasing, content. It would be nice to have more of that.

The other thing that I notice is a certain form of negativity and frustration that can easily spread from one to the next. Politial debates seem to amplify this, and from the point where things get too personal it can have a negative impact on the individual, too. It would be good if we could manage to concentrate more on musical discussions ... right here, in this sub-forum. If we ever want to find somebody that can understand our particular concerns as composers, no matter how aspriring or accomplished ... they are right here.

The art of placing a musical critique however ... is a difficult one. Not everybody is open for it, and not everbody is daring to say what he thinks therefore. A lifelong problem among artists ...


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## Mike Greene (Oct 7, 2010)

The Composition Review section seems like a great resource to me. Obviously, as Jay said, some of the comments need to be taken with a grain of salt, but I happen to think the _"nice piece, but at bar 44 on the 3rd quarter note it sounds synthy so you need to use a different sample or automate the filter"_ comments are pretty useful. We can all take or leave any advice given, so it's all good to me. It's not like these are *clients* leaving feedback.

Regarding stats, I wouldn't read too much into the 200 comments but only 3 response thing. Most people, including me, aren't going to leave comments in most posts. It's not an indication of whether they like a person or his piece.


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## dcoscina (Oct 7, 2010)

I don't post much here to be honest. I mainly post on icompositions.com because I get feedback good or bad and it's constructive. The tenor of that place is very much constructive not destructive. Here, and sorry to generalize, there's an air of elitism and I'm mostly intimidated to post something, especially if it's in the mid-development stage and not finished stage. 

I find it kind of ironic because whenever I jump on someone like Zimmer or whomever, I get branded as elitist but, as far as I know, I have never slagged someone's own piece who posted. I try to start with the good points, the things I like about the piece and then point out things that I personally didn't like. Like so many people say on this forum, a lot of this is personal subjective taste. This is the linchpin of argumentation against the qualitative aspects of a John Williams compared to a Hans Zimmer but seems to be painfully ignored when someone from this forum posts their own piece. 

A few people seem to be safe from the "hit squad" but I could count them on one hand. I recall the lambasting that DP Dan got when someone linked his GPO version of Gerwhin's Rhapsody rather than complimenting him on the long hours it must have taken to program that piece into DP. 

Now, I will say that whenever I have a technical question, there are a lot of really awesome knowledgeable people that I respect and have learned from here. There's also more than a few guys whose music taste is amazing and their music chops clearly deep and amazing. So that's why I value this forum. But I still maintain that it's not the first place I want to post my stuff by and large. Sorry!


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## dcoscina (Oct 7, 2010)

Good post Frederick. I will say that, regardless of the technical ability of the composer or listener, every person reacts on an emotional level to music. I think the great straw-man argument for some is that they charge the "trained" or "academic" listeners as over-intellectual or elitist when in fact they simply have the vernacular to pinpoint those aspects of a piece of music that they like or dislike. I know many composers (friends and colleagues) and no one ever says that they liked or disliked a piece on a cerebral level. Music is an emotional vehicle and that's how it impacts the listener. Whether the listener has a vast music knowledge and vocabulary or not is not relevant to his or her enjoyment of a piece.

There are some mock-ups on this forum that aren't 100% realistic but the musicianship and impact of the piece makes me not care about its sonic realism. I also hear sonically astonishing pieces that fail to do anything except impress me on a superficial level. And sometimes we're treated to both but I wouldn't say as much as I'd like.


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## mverta (Oct 7, 2010)

You know, it could be nothing - there could be next to nothing to take from the amount of replies/posts to a given work.

...but what if there is? Personally, I like to err on the side of caution and acknowledge that some things I post get a lot of feedback instantly, and some things get virtually none. I don't want to turn my back on the fact that that may represent something truthful about the work itself - a "general impact" vibe, which may be skewed low because of the nature of the forum. I certainly don't think the actual numbers mean much, but perhaps the ratios do... who knows?


_Mike


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 7, 2010)

Please consider too that Googlebot has been invited to our forum which could account on some of the views as well. On a general note though, many folks including myself are generally impressed with your work Mike along with many other talented composers - yet not everyone is as verbal as others especially on public forums. Time is also an issue especially with working composers who briefly visit the forum for a few minutes, check something out and then back to work - nothing personal really.


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## wst3 (Oct 7, 2010)

a newcomer's perspective...

I listen to many (most) of the pieces posted in the review forum.

I can't recall posting any responses, mostly because I have not really had anything to add. This might be an error in judgment on my part... perhaps I should at least post that I enjoyed it, or didn't... but the danger there is that if I didn't, well then I feel like I owe some sort of explanation, and usually, well, I don't have anything material to add.

I "grew up" recording live players or purely electronic compositions (experiments?). I always thought it would be cool to mock-up my own work, and it gets' better and better all the time. I am somewhat comfortable commenting on recordings of live players, but I am always aware of the age old joke:

Q: How many (guitar player/lighting designers/composers/etc) does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Seven, one to do the work and six to say "I'd have done it differently"

So there you go... and especially here, there are many ways to do something, and some will appear to be more effective to others, but agreement between all parties will be rare!

Fact is, I learn a TON about mock-ups by listening to other people's efforts. One of these days I will post some things I am working on as well. Not sure how I'll handle the response<G>, but it's part of the growing experience!

I think it's a cool venue. I've learned to discern when there may be a bias with respect to a specific composer or library or even genre, and that's all part of the game too.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 7, 2010)

Well, I always had a soft spot for the ones who thought their music wasn't appreciated, especially when their music is of high quality. And this is not related to Mike, could be for anyone.

Personally, I will praise any work I find of my liking (unless I miss it), no matter what library they are using, whether I like or not the person. I think when it's deserved it's nice to get a pat on the back once in a while, and I don't believe the people who say they are indifferent to that. Not everybody likes each other on the forum, different personalities, temperament, styles etc. but I think when it comes to music, we should ALL leave our egos at the door. And this relates to some of the points Jay made early on.

I know there are some people who will NEVER post anything on my threads presenting some music, (while regularly posting on others), or say anything nice, and that's their way of expressing themselves towards me. I think this is the sad thing about forums, but you're not going to be able to change that.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 7, 2010)

mverta @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> You know, it could be nothing - there could be next to nothing to take from the amount of replies/posts to a given work.
> 
> ...but what if there is? Personally, I like to err on the side of caution and acknowledge that some things I post get a lot of feedback instantly, and some things get virtually none. I don't want to turn my back on the fact that that may represent something truthful about the work itself - a "general impact" vibe, which may be skewed low because of the nature of the forum. I certainly don't think the actual numbers mean much, but perhaps the ratios do... who knows?
> 
> ...



Mike, I do not mean this in anyway to be challenging, I am just curious.

I understand why many here would want this feedback but you are a working pro. If you think it sounds good and your clients like what you are turning in, why would you possibly care what people here have to say about it? And if you are unsure, why would you not simply send it to a handful of trusted friends?


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## José Herring (Oct 7, 2010)

I use to try and comment on everything. Then, I lost all confidence in myself. Started to feel that what I said didn't really matter anyway.

So, I hope that nobody takes it personally that I never comment or rarely listen anymore.

Also, I would notice that works that I thought were just ok would get pages of "nice job" comments. And, works that I thought showed at least a thinking feeling human being behind it, would get about 2 or 3 comments. So I began to feel that too many composers on VI didn't share my same values. 

I also feel that other composers bring too much of their own biases to the table, me included. Making any comment less than objective or helpful.


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## mverta (Oct 7, 2010)

@Ashermusic: To answer your question, you're right that I don't "need" feedback here to do my job. I trust myself on my own to produce work that my clients like, and do just fine, which is why I don't post WIPs on projects I'm actually working on, just sketches or finals.

However, working all the time doesn't mean the work is actually any good. You know perfectly well there are people out there with far more successful careers than you and I have who suck complete ass. So you can't believe your own press sometimes. It doesn't necessarily mean much, just to be working.

So I post to cultivate humility, stay connected, measure trends, test the waters - all sorts of reasons. I post here, on a composers forum with mostly musicians, and I post on my Facebook page, which has almost no musicians. I learn a lot from the contrasts; if musicians and non-musicians alike are all inspired to comment on a piece, it's probably a pretty good one.

In the end, I don't "do" anything directly with the feedback; I just let it in. My style has never been called "cutting edge," for example, it's usually called - when kind - "vintage"; a late 70's/80's thing. But that feedback isn't compelling me to change what I do, it's just good to know. Temet Nosce.

So in the end, it's not about validation or necessity, it's about staying connected, never being afraid to re-visit or come to new truths about my work and how it affects people of all types. That's "all."


_Mike


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## George Caplan (Oct 7, 2010)

josejherring @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> I use to try and comment on everything. Then, I lost all confidence in myself. Started to feel that what I said didn't really matter anyway.



im sure it does. i listen to quite a bit here having discovered what you can do with all this stuff. i like to comment because after all these people should get encouragement. i just like to comment on ones i like. that doesn't mean every other one is somehow less. its just taste.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 7, 2010)

mverta @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> @Ashermusic: To answer your question, you're right that I don't "need" feedback here to do my job. I trust myself on my own to produce work that my clients like, and do just fine, which is why I don't post WIPs on projects I'm actually working on, just sketches or finals.
> 
> However, working all the time doesn't mean the work is actually any good. You know perfectly well there are people out there with far more successful careers than you and I have who suck complete ass. So you can't believe your own press sometimes. It doesn't necessarily mean much, just to be working.
> 
> ...



Fair enough. I really only write what I am hired to write or am trying to GET hired to write. You are a much younger man than me so perhaps the fact that we are at different life stages accounts for some difference in our approach.


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## synergy543 (Oct 7, 2010)

I think some see comment postings and viewing numbers as sort of sign of approval for their work which they shouldn't. Some of the greatest pieces (IMO) have received the least number of comments. Sometimes I might comment on a piece I don't care for much simply to discuss some other aspect of the piece. And other times I might not comment on a great piece that I'm in awe of because I could only add applause (should we all applaud in a thread?) and I'm sure the presenter knows that its a great piece.

One of the reasons people make music is to share with others. As we work with machines and samples, rather than players and instruments, we don't get that human feedback that we as humans desire, and that traditional musicians get whether in an orchestra or in a commercial studio. So the forum is a way for composers to present their work and get a sense of peer approval and a little element of human feedback. However, the forum has many flaws (despite Fredrick's great efforts) as you're as likely to get comments from a troll as you are from a serious listener. And how do you distinguish between the two? The internet lacks so many sensory cues such as facial expressions, tone of voice, appearance of the commentator, and there is no way of knowing who the persons in anonymous disguise actually are? Are they someone with experience or an obnoxious little kid?

I think one thing that would elevate the meaningfulness of comments on the forum is if the posters were required to either give their names or make contact information available. Or in some way be held accountable for their comments by allowing their identity to be revealed upon request. I know that some famous people don't wish to advertise their presence, although without any accountability for everyone, the forum often allows people to comment carelessly and often allows some of the worst elements of human nature to come out of the woodwork. This would not happen quite so easily if we were all in a room together sharing and discussing. The fact that some people are not within punching distance of others fists seems to give them license to dump careless comments on a forum thread as if it were a public latrine. This isn't something we have to live with if we don't want to. Demanding accountability would make forum comments both more thoughtful and meaningful.

Greg


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## RiffWraith (Oct 7, 2010)

In the other thread said:


> @dcoscina -
> 
> As of this writing, he has 2.5% of the people viewing his thread responding.
> 
> My thread has 14,600+ views and only 187 replies, which is approx. 1%.



What I find funny is as of this writing, 4.6% of the people viewing this thread are responding. (18/388).

Why is it that threads like this do so much better than composition threads? o/~


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## choc0thrax (Oct 7, 2010)

Composition threads hardly get replies because the music is almost never good. There are a few exceptions like poseur or whoever that dude was that wrote that "writingtheletter" cue. I think a lot of people are sticking to the mantra of "If you've got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all". Personally, I rarely comment on bad compositions just because I'm too lazy. I could've told that dude that just posted the LOTR fellowship theme(potentially in the wrong area of the forum) that his orchestra sounded like a drunk videogame but it takes too much effort, especially if you're not automatically signed in when visiting VI which is 100% of the time.


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## dannthr (Oct 7, 2010)

Damn, my posts go largely ignored, it must be 'cause I suck.

I should be clearer when I post stuff: I want folks to tear me a new one! :D

I am of the mind-set that all criticism can be constructive assuming the critic is well-intentioned and the receiver is creative and open to the criticisms application.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 7, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> Composition threads hardly get replies because the music is almost never good. There are a few exceptions like poseur or whoever that dude was that wrote that "writingtheletter" cue. I think a lot of people are sticking to the mantra of "If you've got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all". Personally, I rarely comment on bad compositions just because I'm too lazy. I could've told that dude that just posted the LOTR fellowship theme(potentially in the wrong area of the forum) that his orchestra sounded like a drunk videogame but it takes too much effort, especially if you're not automatically signed in when visiting VI which is 100% of the time.



Actually, there are quite a number of people here who have posted some quite nice work in the time I have been here. Sometimes I PM them and tell them so.

Is it also possible that you do not comment because you are aware that you have never demonstrated to any of us that YOU actually know how to do anything that sounds good? If so, I applaud that.


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## choc0thrax (Oct 7, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> Is it also possible that you do not comment because you are aware that you have never demonstrated to any of us that YOU actually know how to do anything that sounds good? If so, I applaud that.



That would never stop me from commenting. It's definitely because I'm lazy.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 7, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> Ashermusic @ Thu Oct 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Is it also possible that you do not comment because you are aware that you have never demonstrated to any of us that YOU actually know how to do anything that sounds good? If so, I applaud that.
> ...



See and here I was trying to give you some credit for a change


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## lux (Oct 7, 2010)

i think jsaras's comment has some truth we all should consider.

In general i think this board is getting worse as the "professionalist" wind which dominates here almost kicked in the arse every artistical, emotive and "generally cultural" consideration, leaving space for verbose dissertations about "i played with xxxx orchestra and I CAN tell this sounds like crap" or the longest annoying list of what "clients" (what is a client? are we supposed to base a community forum on what "clients" say or ask?) really want for Christmas. I mean, this is not a musicians syndacate forum, where work related issues are the main topic, i still think this is a community where composres, performers, music lovers can have a good exchange about what they think (and mostly feel) about things

Sometimes i hear a few members approaching to music with a nice (and personal!) artistical angle. But its so rare. Most of times the unseemly lack of humilty almost scares me. I suppose it scares as well many composers which would never consider posting a word here to avoid having to argue with everyone on everytning just for the sake of it. This last category probably include most composers which have a busy agenda. 

Luca


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 7, 2010)

synergy543 @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> I think one thing that would elevate the meaningfulness of comments on the forum is if the posters were required to either give their names or make contact information available. Or in some way be held accountable for their comments by allowing their identity to be revealed upon request.
> Greg



To what point this is feasible, I don't know, but I like the idea, people like Narval would certainly restrain themselves on many occasions. 

If people were to post the same way as if they were standing in front of the person, the forum would be so much more interesting. And of course this doesn't apply to just this forum but the internet in general.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 7, 2010)

lux @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> i think jsaras's comment has some truth we all should consider.
> 
> In general i think this board is getting worse as the "professionalist" wind which dominates here almost kicked in the arse every artistical, emotive and "generally cultural" consideration, leaving space for verbose dissertations about "i played with xxxx orchestra and I CAN tell this sounds like crap" or the longest annoying list of what "clients" (what is a client? are we supposed to base a community forum on what "clients" say or ask?) really want for Christmas. I mean, this is not a musicians syndacate forum, where work related issues are the main topic, i still think this is a community where composres, performers, music lovers can have a good exchange about what they think (and mostly feel) about things
> 
> ...



You make some good points Luca. 

It is just so damn hard to get decent paying composing work nowadays that pleasing clients so that they will hire you again has become even more important than in the past. And perhaps

sadly I am never really thinking in terms of artistry when I am writing anymore. That said, I can only say that I believe when I write for a project, whatever the budget and whatever the constraints it is hard-wired into me to create the best music I can that also works with the picture.

Because I am almost always writing to picture, I am especially reluctant to criticize the work of others who are not but are just trying to create some artistic, good sounding music because it is so subjective. So that is another reason I do not comment publicly on others posted music.

What I do steadfastly maintain and will continue to is that if one has no track record or has not even posted works that show compositional skill, it behooves that person to be very careful about making negative public comments on the work of others.


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## germancomponist (Oct 7, 2010)

I am one of the people who listen very often and comment very often.

When I listen to a piece I ask to myself:

1. How is the composition, do I like it or not?
2. How is it arranged, do I like it or not?
3. How good or not so good is it sounding, do I like it or not (the mix)?
And so on.... .

If I like a piece of the above reasons, why should I not tell it to the composer?
If someone has done something well I mention this very much.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 7, 2010)

germancomponist @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> I am one of the people who listen very often and comment very often.
> 
> When I listen to a piece I ask to myself:
> 
> ...



Why not simply PM him and tell him so then?

Not challenging you, just asking.


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## dcoscina (Oct 7, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> synergy543 @ Thu Oct 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I think one thing that would elevate the meaningfulness of comments on the forum is if the posters were required to either give their names or make contact information available. Or in some way be held accountable for their comments by allowing their identity to be revealed upon request.
> ...



Oh I could not agree more. I think the relative safety of the internet has bred or at least cultivated a new generation of passive-aggresives, or at least they have found the best environment to be bullies. You would not believe the vitriol that is spouted on places like YouTube (probably the worst that the internet stands for). If someone is having a bad day, there's nothing stopping them from savaging a person's personal opinion or worse, a creation of theirs to elevate their own self esteem. I'm sure there's been plenty of sociological studies on the effect of the internet.

I'm not going to say I haven't ever tread into this territory before because I certainly have but usually I get all wound up about higher ideals in music and film (aka my rants about Zimmer usually) and leave it at there. If Hans Zimmer were a regular forum member I most probably would curtail my spicy critiques in favour of more civilized articulations on what I find wanting. 

I would never consciously wish to hurt someone's feelings over something they poured time and energy into, whether it was here or on another forum. To that end, I know I will try to comment more and find constructive, articulate ways of voicing opinions that are more critical based. o-[][]-o


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## germancomponist (Oct 7, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> Why not simply PM him and tell him so then?
> 
> Not challenging you, just asking.



Jay,

I know that praise is doing very well. Why not praise someone publicly? I never have had a problem with doing this. o-[][]-o


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 7, 2010)

dcoscina @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Thu Oct 07 said:
> 
> 
> > synergy543 @ Thu Oct 07 said:
> ...




I bet you would take any member here, call them up and I bet you'd have a nice conversation with them. But once you're on the internet and forums, you are a different person.


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## germancomponist (Oct 7, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Fri Oct 08 said:


> I bet you would take any member here, call them up and have a nice conversation with them. But once you're on the internet and forums, you are a different person.



Not always........ . :roll: o/~


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## Hannes_F (Oct 7, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> Why not simply PM him and tell him so then?
> 
> Not challenging you, just asking.



Suggestion: Because a posting is also a commitment to an opinion? And if everybody just PMed we would have the big silence here.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 7, 2010)

germancomponist @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Fri Oct 08 said:
> 
> 
> > I bet you would take any member here, call them up and have a nice conversation with them. But once you're on the internet and forums, you are a different person.
> ...



Your right Gunther. Ok 95% of the time.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 7, 2010)

germancomponist @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> Ashermusic @ Thu Oct 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Why not simply PM him and tell him so then?
> ...



Here's why: 5 member compositions pop up and you single one out for praise. The other 4 assume you did not like theirs. So you have made 1 person feel good and 4 feel bad. 

It is just human nature.


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## synergy543 (Oct 7, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> germancomponist @ Thu Oct 07 said:
> 
> 
> > If I like a piece of the above reasons, why should I not tell it to the composer?
> ...


Jay, for someone who does not express his opinions publicly on a a forum, you have some quite strong and colorful opinions. :wink: (which I enjoy...most of the time)

Its a forum after all. The purpose is for people to exchange opinions and have a discussion. As long as we do so politely, commenting on compositions or techniques can be really interesting and fun. Its the hurtful comments that are harmful and unnecessary and scare people away. Despite my posting count, I post much less frequently as I don't have time for contentious arguments...only for interesting discussions.

0oD Hey, where'd the motto go Fred? Composers helping composers? 0oD 
Seems we have a new agenda! - ..."To help each other improve ability so we can find work." (good idea!). Totally rad dude! =o

[schild=1 fontcolor=FF0000 shadowcolor=C0C0C0 shieldshadow=1]Got Samples....Will work for more samples[/schild]


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## Ashermusic (Oct 7, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> And if everybody just PMed we would have the big silence here.



Maybe that would be an improvement? :lol:


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## synergy543 (Oct 7, 2010)

Shhh....Jay don't express your opinions!


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## Ashermusic (Oct 7, 2010)

synergy543 @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> Ashermusic @ Thu Oct 07 said:
> 
> 
> > germancomponist @ Thu Oct 07 said:
> ...



I never said I do not express my opinions. Clearly I do, sometimes too often and not as diplomatically as I should, I know.

But not on people's actual work. For me, that is off limits.


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## germancomponist (Oct 7, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Fri Oct 08 said:


> germancomponist @ Thu Oct 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Thu Oct 07 said:
> ...



True,

but: Do you or I like all the music what is playing on the radio charts? 
I think we both like 99% not, but it seems that there are people who like it. So what? 0oD


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 7, 2010)

Jay, I assume you would be honest and articulate in your comments towards people's compositions, right? Then by removing yourself you are letting the ones who play fanboy win. I find that a bit sad for the forum and the hard working composers posting their music.


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## synergy543 (Oct 7, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> I never said I do not express my opinions. Clearly I do, sometimes too often and not as diplomatically as I should, I know.
> 
> But not on people's actual work. For me, that is off limits.


Why? Because you might hurt their feelings? 

You might also have something helpful to add too. 

And you might simply hurt their feeling about something else you express an opinion on (btw, that was a rather big slap with a wet trout to Choco earlier - I'm sure he's chomping down pizza in consumption therapy to combat his hurtful feelings. Even Choco has feelings ya know...he's our regular "Far Side Guy", the forum would be much less colorful without him).


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## germancomponist (Oct 7, 2010)

+1 for Choco! :-D


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## Ashermusic (Oct 7, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> Jay, I assume you would be honest and articulate in your comments towards people's compositions, right? Then by removing yourself you are letting the ones who play fanboy win. I find that a bit sad for the forum and the hard working composers posting their music.



OK, I am going to make a lot of people here laugh with this comment but frankly I feel humble about how much my opinion on anyone's music is worth or even should be worth as it is so subjective. I am much more comfortable commenting on things that I believe I have an empirical basis for.

Anyone who specifically wants my comments is free to PM and ask me to tell them what I think and I will do so, but gently, because for the same reason I would not tell a parent they had an ugly kid, this is one area where I am actually sensitive to people's feelings.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 7, 2010)

I will do better Jay. I will come to your house.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 7, 2010)

synergy543 @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> And you might simply hurt their feeling about something else you express an opinion on (btw, that was a rather big slap with a wet trout to Choco earlier - I'm sure he's chomping down pizza in consumption therapy to combat his hurtful feelings. Even Choco has feelings ya know...he's our regular "Far Side Guy", the forum would be much less colorful without him).



He does? :lol: I see him more as a Court Jester than Gary Larson. By and large I could live without his ....err... contributions but what the hell, sorry if I hurt your feelings Choco. (Somehow I doubt it.)


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## dcoscina (Oct 7, 2010)

I would honestly love feedback from Jay, Thomas J, Guy B., Frederick, pretty much anyone working at this and getting paid for a living. I appreciate it when people give me feedback on a piece, good or bad. I especially like the comments where someone pinpoints something. To me, it says they took the time not only to listen but to offer their thoughts. 

I know this is not possible for every piece and I would think that more people would post "in progress" stuff if they got feedback rather than just finished works (wherein most people wouldn't necessarily be in the right frame of mind for constructive comments as the piece is done). 

Hey, don't get me wrong- I love this forum. I'm constantly surprised and impressed by the level of musicality of guys like David Robinson, or John G or Jose, Re-Peat, etc, etc. There are a lot of skilled and knowledgeable musicians here and it's great to get their input. I also love some of the debates too. I think healthy debate is good. I will say it would be nice to engage in more theoretical aesthetic conversations without the pragmatism entering into the equation every single time but that is a personal wish and it's a small one at that.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 7, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> I will do better Jay. I will come to your house.



You would be most welcome Guy.

Just leave the VSL stuff at home :twisted:


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## choc0thrax (Oct 7, 2010)

Don't worry about me. Years of Jay's abuse has given me a thick skin...and herpes strangely.

I won't be leaving the forum anytime soon. It's actually Jay and Germancomponist who sort of keep me around. 

I'm leaving for Winnipeg in a few days for 2 months so if I vanish just assume I was stabbed to death for venturing outside after sundown(it's kind of dangerous there).


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## synergy543 (Oct 7, 2010)

Choco, you crack me up!
[cue begins....Departure of the Gladiators...]


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## germancomponist (Oct 7, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Fri Oct 08 said:


> I won't be leaving the forum anytime soon. It's actually Jay and Germancomponist who sort of keep me around.



You are welcome, Choco! o=< o-[][]-o o/~


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## JJP (Oct 7, 2010)

I like this forum and I enjoy helping people and the general spirit of shared knowledge. However, I don't like to comment on members' music for a few reasons...

1. I generally am more interested in musical issues than the quality of samples or someone's sequencing ability. Musical issues are abstract and usually require a lot of explanation, and that can be difficult in a forum. Verbose postings are time consuming to type and read. This is my biggest issue.

2. Musical issues are often subjective. What I may like or dislike about a piece may be completely contradictory to someone else's opinion or the goals of the creator. In a vacuum of context like a forum, I find it difficult to give useful feedback on subjective points. I'd like to know that my comments are helpful and not just a waste of someone's time and possibly a blow to their confidence.

3. Does anybody care what I think? When I do creative work, I generally believe that it's not up to me to decide whether it's great or not. I'm confident that it's good - that's my job - but how it will be received is anyone's guess. I'm not sure anyone should care what I think.

4. I generally don't know people on this forum personally. It's hard to know what type of feedback to give. I don't want to talk over someone's head. Worse, I don't want to be insulting because I'm underestimating someone's knowledge. I'd hate to do anything that would stir acrimony on this wonderful forum.


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## autopilot (Oct 7, 2010)

meh - sometimes people want real feedback. sometimes they just want to be told it's great. I can never work it out in real life, let alone the passive / aggressive way that a forum post can go. 

And - mostly the last thing I want to do is listen to music and then articualte what I think about it. Plus - like others have said - my opinion is just that. Sometimes I think I'm qualified to comment , sometimes I don't.


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## JohnG (Oct 7, 2010)

Well guys, the section is titled, "Member's Composition Review," and a review can serve a valuable function. 

Inevitably, sometimes comments are superficial, petty, generated by some weird resentment or just -- dumb. Sometimes, as reviewers, we listen to a piece and it doesn't strike us, or we think it's dreck and not worth discussing, or it's kind of fine the way it is but we don't have anything to add that is likely to improve anyone's life. So very often we might not have much to say.

But plenty of times, one can hear a composer reaching for something and not quite attaining it, and then comments can be enormously helpful. In my own career, "sounds great, keep it up" has been the LEAST helpful. By contrast, telling me to take the brass up a minor third so it's brighter and more penetrating, or add an octave, or just "don't hold back" can be useful. 

One well-known composer told me, "the stuff you sent sounds kind of like a lot of people; I'd hire you as an orchestrator but I don't hear YOU in the music you sent me. Kind of boring." 

That's helpful.

Natürlich, when we do comment, it's very subjective. What else do we have? Our taste. Our opinions. We can praise or condemn something because we don't like something -- maybe, for us, it's too stuffy, too trendy, too feeble an imitation, too old hat, too derivative. Maybe the person who posted it needs to hear that, though perhaps gently.

At other times, it's a matter of craft, viz, "I can hear you are trying to be big and epic here and there are a few things you could do to get closer to what I think you are aiming for." That's helpful too.

I think this thread in some areas is too philosophical -- Jay, it almost astonishes me that someone who's earned the right to give an opinion (which you have) and who is not shy about acting as a scolding schoolmaster on a number of other fronts should shrink from saying what you think about music. I'm sure it would be courteous -- JJP, same deal. You obviously know a heck of a lot; I'd love to hear it and I'm willing to bet others would benefit from it.

Courtesy is always welcome, but honest opinions for composers are elusive. I think this can be a great place to get one.


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## autopilot (Oct 7, 2010)

yeah - I don't disagree - but for me - not publicly, and not in perpetuity


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## nikolas (Oct 7, 2010)

On the rather opposite end of Jay's first message.

1. I post because I make friends this way! :D

2. I take quite a lot. I post quite a lot (or used to, anyways), and I'm sure I learned TONS!

3. I have the rather simple capacity to ignore silly comments, or insults and stick to the useful ones (with the few exceptions like posts from mf for example... heh).

I actually try to seperate the mockup from the orchestration and that from the actual music/composition. I treat them at a different level. And I happen to consider that a mockup IS a performance. This usually takes place when JBacal posts a new demo! I don't mind the samples, I never did. In fact I confused live strings with sampled ones in a thread very recently (ok, it was through laptop speakers, but I'm inexcusable in that sense): I didn't care! I was about the music and the composition. When I do decide to offer my feedback (whic his not too often due to lack of time sadly), I try my best to make it a worthy one. Attempt to 'teach' the OP in a Socratian way: By asking...

And to bug the shit out of everyone, every once in a while I go on presenting a contemporary classical piece, which is rather difficult to chew on! And it gets around 1% of posting (and if you take out my own posts, it goes down to less than 1%). I was VERY tempted to PM David when he said that about Piotrs thread: "My thread has 8 responses with more than 600 views! boohoohoo...". Then I thought that he did post and that I don't mind really.

In other instances the sheer beauty of the music posted is enough to give me a reason to click "post" and go "Great work! Lovely music!". I don't make a habit out of making people feel bad, Jay: It's THEIR fault and not mine, if they decide to feel bad if me (or Gunther) don't say something very nice in a post...


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 7, 2010)

I'm constantly staggered at how good most of the music is, actually - I don't hang around there nearly enough (often I'm on the iphone so can't hear the music). Broadly the feedback seems to work well - I get that most people won't comment, and of those that do the vast majority are constructive. Since the forum is called VI Control, I think the technical comments re samples etc are not only useful, they're essential... it's how this place defines itself... making great music, virtually. Of course comments re the music itself are equally valuable.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 9, 2010)

rabiang @ 8/10/2010 said:


> Also, i am completely astonished by the lack of decency in this forum.



Pot calling the kettle black?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 9, 2010)

I don't comment much because I don't take the time. There's always a bunch of stuff for me to read first, and by the time I'm done, I have to move on to other websites. I think it might be easier if there was an mp3 soundcloud-like floating player, where latest posted members' music would be playing, and you could drop a comment on the fly, without having to leave the thread you're reading or post you're writing.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 9, 2010)

rabiang @ Fri Oct 08 said:


> Also, i am completely astonished by the lack of decency in this forum. So called icons of the industry are allowed to basically mock and harass members without consequence. it doesnt attract more activity, from me or others.



This comment is a little vague for me. Without naming names, it would of helped getting more details. 


"Icons" seem like a big word. From my experience on this forum and mainly in life, in general, the more professional composers and musicians have always given encouraging and intelligent comments about my compositions. They are not the only ones of course, but I don't recall anything bad about any of their feedback.

What I do find very annoying is the guy who has very little experience while you have a lifetime of experience, and he's talking to you as if you are a novice. You find a lot of these on the internet and forums.


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## rgames (Oct 9, 2010)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Oct 09 said:


> I don't comment much because I don't take the time. There's always a bunch of stuff for me to read first, and by the time I'm done, I have to move on to other websites. I think it might be easier if there was an mp3 soundcloud-like floating player, where latest posted members' music would be playing, and you could drop a comment on the fly, without having to leave the thread you're reading or post you're writing.


Hmmm... that's a pretty good idea.

Seems like VI-Control would be able to put together something like that. Like you said, a soundcloud-type interface somewhere on the page with a list of recently uploaded tracks. I guess we could somehow link it to our own soundcloud pages - maybe there's a VI Control page on soundcloud where we can go and add those links, then they show up on these pages.

I like it! Get on it guys!

rgames


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## Ashermusic (Oct 9, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Sat Oct 09 said:


> What I do find very annoying is the guy who has very little experience while you have a lifetime of experience, and he's talking to you as if you are a novice. You find a lot of these on the internet and forums.



A big +1.


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## germancomponist (Oct 9, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sat Oct 09 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Sat Oct 09 said:
> 
> 
> > What I do find very annoying is the guy who has very little experience while you have a lifetime of experience, and he's talking to you as if you are a novice. You find a lot of these on the internet and forums.
> ...



A big +2! o-[][]-o

When I think about what I have seen recently in a German forum ... . I thought this would be a serious forum, but you never stop learning.


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## hbuus (Oct 9, 2010)

What I find annoying is the fact that VI Control has so many experienced people who unfortunately refuses to share their knowledge - or so it seems, since these people hardly ever comment on any members composition review. And when they do comment, they comment on an already superb piece of music by saying something like "Well done".

I'm not saying newcomers shouldn't practice - hell, everybody knows it's necessary to practice regardless of whatever help you may or may not be getting via members composition review. But sometimes, getting a little assistance with your mix can help you a great deal, making you a better musician and thus enabling you to make better music next time.

I know there are many pros around here who have limited time though, which can explain some of this I'm writing about here. But judging from the amount of posts some experienced people make on other subjects, they do indeed have a fair amount of free time on their hands. Time, which could partly be used to help others in here getting better.

Best,
Henrik


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 9, 2010)

The only thing I'll say about that last post is when people wanting to improve themselves and may be struggling with something, they have everything to loose by having an attitude with someone more experienced. I've seen that a little too often here, and personally, I do give now and then some advice, more on PM or emails, but the moment the guy starts having an attitude (even though I'm not perfect myself) I shut the door.


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## JJP (Oct 9, 2010)

hbuus @ Sat Oct 09 said:


> What I find annoying is the fact that VI Control has so many experienced people who unfortunately refuses to share their knowledge... they do indeed have a fair amount of free time on their hands. Time, which could partly be used to help others in here getting better.


Displaying annoyance towards people with more experience simply because they won't comply with your demands for time and advice portrays hubris. Hubris often discourages potential mentors.


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 9, 2010)

VI is also great for networking and here is where you can not only network and find connections but also get honest private evaluations of your work via PM. Its amazing what can be accomplished by simply reaching out to some of the talent here. Most I've contacted have been courteous and more than a few have been really helpful. 

I think its important to realize that one doesn't always have all the answers. To me, its this particular mindset that somehow opens the door to knowledge galore. If you need help, ask. If you want to network and get information that way, one way is via PMs. They're basically there as both an opportunity to learn and a way to grow your own networking base - aside from occasionally making some close life-long friends.


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## rabiang (Oct 9, 2010)

some examples of recent indecency:

bacal gets ridiculed.

Mike C gets harrassed by NickP

I get attacked personally by JohnG

(i have settled this recently w John. and agreed to start on scratch again).

please dont come telling me you cant see whats going on.

you are great musicians, start getting some decency.

attacking the person that points out these things is double idiotic. claiming he is a novice can be easliy refuted, but why would i care?

ignoring harassment when you see it is close to the same as doing it yourself, ethically speaking. grow up guys, and learn from the academic. Seperate subject and person, thats the first rule. if you cant do that you will fail. not as a composer, but as a human being.


acceptable tools in communication are:

arguments, irony, logic, humor, frankness, and classification of actions

inacceptable are:

personal attacks, mistaking the argument for the person, classifing the person (not the action), using rhetorical means to discredit the person, using factors like age, experience etc to discredit the person.

these are principles that can be used if one wants progress of knowledge.

i also make mistakes when i try to follow this. but at least i try.


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## nikolas (Oct 9, 2010)

rabiang @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> some examples of recent indecency:
> 
> bacal gets ridiculed.
> 
> ...


Can you link me/us to these examples, since I wasn't aware of any of these?



> (i have settled this recently w John. and agreed to start on scratch again).
> 
> please dont come telling me you cant see whats going on.
> 
> you are great musicians, start getting some decency.


Just note the fact that you're offering a multiple peronal attacks (people getting some decency). I'm personally a little annoyed with your post and the idea that you come telling people to grow up, that we/they refuse to see what's going on and to get some decency.



> ignoring harassment when you see it is close to the same as doing it yourself, ethically speaking. grow up guys, and learn from the academic. Seperate subject and person, thats the first rule. if you cant do that you will fail. not as a composer, but as a human being.


"Grow up", "fail", etc... Is it because you are able to seperate subject and person right now? 



Guy said:


> What I do find very annoying is the guy who has very little experience while you have a lifetime of experience, and he's talking to you as if you are a novice. You find a lot of these on the internet and forums.


And how would one know that really? I mean when one comes into the forums and for a little while, as a newbie, does one know about JBacal, or you, or JohnG, or poseur? I actually didn't know Mike Verta, until he posted here. Yes I didn't go running to him being rude or whatever, and yes I do have some experience in the media world and plenty in the music world, but it remains that I was clueless to who Mike was!


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 9, 2010)

JohnG @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> But plenty of times, one can hear a composer reaching for something and not quite attaining it, and then comments can be enormously helpful. In my own career, "sounds great, keep it up" has been the LEAST helpful. By contrast, telling me to take the brass up a minor third so it's brighter and more penetrating, or add an octave, or just "don't hold back" can be useful.
> 
> One well-known composer told me, "the stuff you sent sounds kind of like a lot of people; I'd hire you as an orchestrator but I don't hear YOU in the music you sent me. Kind of boring."
> 
> That's helpful.



Very true. I've noticed a few times that people want answers that will help them on the spot.

Well, 1st of all, as Frederick said, there isn't always an answer, 2nd, hoping to get a an answer that will right away transform your piece is also not realistic.

Sometimes you just have to work harder, dig deeper and come back with a new version. 

The more experienced people here giving advice have absolutely no obligaò'   êtò'   êtó'   êtô'   êtõ'   êtö'   êt÷'   êtø'   êtù'   êtú'   êtû'   êtü'   êtý'   êtþ'   êtÿ'   êu '   êu'   êu'   êu'   êu'   êu'   êu'   êu'   êu'   êu	'   êu
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## Ashermusic (Oct 9, 2010)

rabiang @ Sat Oct 09 said:


> inacceptable are:
> 
> using factors like age, experience etc to discredit the person.



I will not use those to discredit a person as a human being but I very well may to discredit their opinion because whether you like it or not, the opinion of a young inexperienced person just does not have the same value as the opinion of an older more experienced person and the only people who will argue that point are generally those too young and inexperienced to understand that simple truth.


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## nikolas (Oct 9, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> nikolas @ Sun Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy said:
> ...


More than fair enough, but the way you worded this in the original post, it seemed to me that you were talking about novices offering feedback to pros (so the other way around).

In the end, if you're asking for feedback, you should expect anything: You've opened yourself to any critic, and any comment really!


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## mverta (Oct 9, 2010)

Not only should you expect it, you should welcome it - all of it - and learn to deal with it - all of it. These are critical life and profession skills, where you don't get to choose the way others behave; merely how you deal with it.



_Mike


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## Mr. Anxiety (Oct 10, 2010)

Mike,

Amen!

Mr. A.


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## hbuus (Oct 10, 2010)

Guy Bacos, JJP and everyone else:

Please excuse me for making such a negative post earlier in this thread.
Of course experienced people are under no obligation to assist others; when they do, you should just be humble and happy.

For the record this is exactly what I am myself, which was displayed in a recent thread under members composition review.
Whenever someone makes a suggestion to me, I do not feel obliged to follow their advice in the sense that now my piece MUST be changed that way. Instead I'm driven by curiosity to take their advice and see where it leads. How will my piece sound if I change it the way that is being suggested? That's how it works for me. But also there is an element of courtesy in it. Here's a fellow who have spent time listening and making a comment. Why should I then not take the time to experiment with what he/she is saying?

Anyway, I realize I was being overly negative and actually also unfair in that earlier post - unfair in the sense that I've noticed several times that you, Guy, and others with experience have made helpful comments in the members comp. review section. I can only hope you will continue doing so, even after reading once in a while a silly and mega-negative post here!

Best,
Henrik


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## Rob (Oct 10, 2010)

to me, the usefulness of a comment lies in the comment itself, not the person posting. I will always prefer a good, meaningful comment from a newcomer than an unnecessary one from a veteran... plus I never really know who I'm talking to in a forum, so I have to depend on the meaning of the comment more than the name behind it... I'm 53, so I have the right to express myself :D


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## lux (Oct 10, 2010)

Rob @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> to me, the usefulness of a comment lies in the comment itself, not the person posting. I will always prefer a good, meaningful comment from a newcomer than an unnecessary one from a veteran...



I agree with that.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 10, 2010)

Depends what you want. If you're looking for feedback but only in a kumbaya frame of mind, that's a different story, and nothing wrong with that and you will get some helpful advice once in a while. But if you really want to improve yourself no matter what, you have to be totally tolerant to other people's character, especially the ones that could be helpful to you, even if you think they're idiots.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 10, 2010)

This whole thread has convinced me that my policy of not commenting on other's work publicly, only privately if they ask me to do so is the correct one, for me.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 10, 2010)

Just also to clarify one thing, so there's no confusion with anything I said. I'm not discounting the importance of being polite and encouraging in your comments, but sometimes this happens and sometimes it doesn't, never-the-less, the comment could be more helpful to you on the long run than the: "Wow! I love it!

I regular get feedback from Greg, (Synergy543) via emails, and sometimes he comes down relatively hard on me, not only it doesn't bother me one bit (except on the spot for a few min) but I am extremely thankful because I could see that everything he has said is true. I fix it up and feel much better about my piece after that. And of course he praises the piece as well, just want to clarify that.

Of course there are always a few people who likes to give advice just for the sake of it and haven't got a clue what they're talking about or just for what ever reasons.... It's up to you to evaluate the validity of their comments. But also accept any consequences.


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## rabiang (Oct 10, 2010)

nikolas @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> rabiang @ Sun Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > some examples of recent indecency:
> ...




references to the threads you asked about:

-the bacal thread was full of disgraceful comments for many pages, then the members started modding themselves and removing insulting responses.

- the harrassing reply to mike c was written by nick phoenix in one of the threads about play. i cant find it, so maybe it has been removed. I am sure mike remembers it if you ask him.

- john's attack on me was in this thread: http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17750


you guys asked for names and concrete stories, you got it. 10 min after my last reply i was unable to access vi control unless on a vpn, and even then my account was locked for me. i am still unable to access vi control without vpn.

there is a big difference between asking people to grow decency and harassing one person at a personal and emotional level for several paragraphs. i hope u guys see that. either way, i should be just a lurker here, fits me best. i cant change how u run the forum, its just sad to see some people being given the freedom to abuse others because of business relations or whatever.

edit as of 6.22AM asia time 11.oct 2010: i can now access vicontrol without a vpn.


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## JohnG (Oct 10, 2010)

Dear Rabiang,

You have not been banned. You should get an email shortly with details about something to do with an automatic block of a server (or something like that).

Disagreeing with someone's assertions is not the same as a personal attack. I ask that you stop repeating this accusation which I've now read two or three times, and which, at the risk of appearing over-sensitive, IS rather tending toward the personal.

Intensity is very cool -- it's part of what we do. No problem. Let's move on, please. I, for one, would appreciate more perspective from producers like you on the forum and look forward to hearing from you.


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## nikolas (Oct 10, 2010)

I've already e-mailed and PMed Rabiang about his problems with posting. I'm hoping that his problems will be resolved shortly. If we think that he's assuming he got banned, his last post makes sense, otherwise he should calm down to cool off...


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## synergy543 (Oct 10, 2010)

When commenting on someone's piece I find it helpful to also consider whether what I say is appropriate for a public forum, or whether its even appropriate to say at all. I think this is an important distinction that is overlooked too often. With no consequences, there is nothing stopping some people from relentlessly and coldly slamming others.

A few years back Peter Alexander ran an Orchestration Class here and each person was required to use their real name. The etiquette in that sub forum was extremely friendly and members really did help other members. The exchanges in that sub forum were a stark contrast to the main forums. I think one of the biggest differences is that it was a privilege to be invited into the class and it was heavily moderated with some rules of conduct outlined by Peter. The resulting exchanges were very focused, friendly and interesting. I miss this type of focused and courteous forum exchange and wish there were more opportunities to have a similar type of dialog.

Maybe some moderated sub forums might be an options?


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## Ashermusic (Oct 10, 2010)

synergy543 @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> When commenting on someone's piece I find it helpful to also consider whether what I say is appropriate for a public forum, or whether its even appropriate to say at all. I think this is an important distinction that is overlooked too often. With no consequences, there is nothing stopping some people from relentlessly and coldly slamming others.
> 
> A few years back Peter Alexander ran an Orchestration Class here and each person was required to use their real name. The etiquette in that sub forum was extremely friendly and members really did help other members. The exchanges in that sub forum were a stark contrast to the main forums. I think one of the biggest differences is that it was a privilege to be invited into the class and it was heavily moderated with some rules of conduct outlined by Peter. The resulting exchanges were very focused, friendly and interesting. I miss this type of focused and courteous forum exchange and wish there were more opportunities to have a similar type of dialog.
> 
> Maybe some moderated sub forums might be an options?



I would love a "just for pros"moderated sub- forum where everyone's identity is disclosed. My hunch is that indeed it would require little to no moderation.


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## bryla (Oct 10, 2010)

Jay that would require someone to judge and define, what a professional is, and who that is. Of course someone that works everyday getting paid composing, orchestrating, sequencing, mixing and so on, but what if someone has had a decline in work the last two years and need to get a part time job on the side? Is he not professional then? Am I a professional? I earn my living as a gigging musician and compose on the side? I know it's a completely different topic. 

Anyway regarding demos: I find it weird that many try to atract (fake?) attention to compositions just by adding some fancy library name in the topic title in parentheses. Obviously not talking about Guy, Bacal and others affiliated with companies


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 10, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> rabiang @ Sat Oct 09 said:
> 
> 
> > inacceptable are:
> ...



Value? Truth? 
Come on now...there is the slight matter of relativity to consider, and personally i value the honest opinion of some young inexperienced person over that of an aging has-been that uses every possible oportunity to beat down on anything or anyone that threatens his position. ( In general terms...not saying you are any of those things in this context).

Its kinda sad when people mix in personal agendas when offering critisism and advice, wheter you like it or not you will be surpassed .... so why not be positive and encouraging towards young inexperienced people insteading of pointing out the obiovus? 

I think Rob said it best, take critisism for what it is, the experienced and wise old man should be able to differentiate and take to heart what is valid or not without discrediting anyone at all anyway, no?


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## wesbender (Oct 10, 2010)

bryla @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> Anyway regarding demos: I find it weird that many try to atract (fake?) attention to compositions just by adding some fancy library name in the topic title in parentheses.



I don't see anything wrong with this.

I think it's a good way of helping other people find user demos for certain products they may be interested in.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 10, 2010)

Just keep in mind, you're not going to make anyone's education on this board. Best to deal with reality....


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## synergy543 (Oct 10, 2010)

bryla @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> Jay that would require someone to judge and define, what a professional is, and who that is. Of course someone that works everyday getting paid composing, orchestrating, sequencing, mixing and so on, but what if someone has had a decline in work the last two years and need to get a part time job on the side? Is he not professional then? Am I a professional? I earn my living as a gigging musician and compose on the side? I know it's a completely different topic.
> 
> Anyway regarding demos: I find it weird that many try to atract (fake?) attention to compositions just by adding some fancy library name in the topic title in parentheses.



An alternative to "judging" and "profiling" would be to create sub forums that you could join by invite or request. The moderator would then have the right to "excuse" you from the forum if he deemed your conduct inappropriate. Of course the moderators would have to exercise "good judgement" (his own definition - each forum might be a bit different like classrooms and teachers are different) and might request that you moderate your conduct before booting you. However, knowing that there was structured forum that required a certain politeness in order to participate might be useful. Surely if you're interested in the topic, you'll think carefully about what you post and most likely it will be useful and constructive comments from both you and others.

Of course there's always the main forum for free speech and telling everyone what you "really think". WTF? ROTF LMBFAO, Kewl OK? But doesn't it make sense to have corner discussions that could be limited to more specific topics and moderated (so members stay on topic). For example, I don't see to many flame wars in the EIS forum. That's a nice example of sub topic forums we might be able to have.

Just an idea....

Greg


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## Rob (Oct 10, 2010)

bryla @ 10th October 2010 said:


> ...
> 
> Anyway regarding demos: I find it weird that many try to atract (fake?) attention to compositions just by adding some fancy library name in the topic title in parentheses. Obviously not talking about Guy, Bacal and others affiliated with companies



Why do I suddenly have the feeling that no one is who he used to be anymore? I feel the need to walk away from here for a while...


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## Ashermusic (Oct 10, 2010)

bryla @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> Jay that would require someone to judge and define, what a professional is, and who that is. Of course someone that works everyday getting paid composing, orchestrating, sequencing, mixing and so on, but what if someone has had a decline in work the last two years and need to get a part time job on the side? Is he not professional then? Am I a professional? I earn my living as a gigging musician and compose on the side? I know it's a completely different topic.



I don't advocate being rigid about it. If someone simply clicks an "I agree" button to a statement that they make a substantial part of their living working professionally as a composer, producer, arranger, etc. and a link to a website or My Space page so that all can see who they are and what they do that would be fine with me. 

And yes, certainly you are a pro. What I want to differentiate are those who make a living creating music and hobbyists/music students.

This is NOT a knock on them or meant to be disrespectful to them as people, just a recognition that how you see things can change dramatically when it is your bread and butter as opposed to something you do only because you are interested in it or aspiring to it.


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## bryla (Oct 10, 2010)

Thanks for clarifying! Certainly sounds like a great idea - I just misunderstood it a bit


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## José Herring (Oct 10, 2010)

rabiang @ Sat Oct 09 said:


> some examples of recent indecency:
> 
> bacal gets ridiculed.
> 
> ...



Regarding this I think sometimes things get taken harshly when no real harsh intent was intended.

I know John G. and read through the posts above and knowing him, if those post had been directed towards me, I wouldn't have at all thought that he was being rude or disrespectful. Rather that he was trying to make an emphatic post.

As far as the JBacal thread a while back, there are some things that annoy me to death. One of them is trying to "mock up" a piece that was obviously intended for real players where the idea of samples never even crossed the composers mind. It's me personally. I have a hard time with it. If Jay knew me personally, he would have known that I'm generally a pretty decent person and that if I lost my cool he would just think that Jose lost his cool and is being a jackass and not have even taken offense. If I knew him personally I would have voiced my objection with far more tact. 

I actually feel horribly bad about all that. But, the situation was exacerbated by others joining in and taking sides.

Disagreements are going to happen. When they do, I think that the courteous thing to do would be to let the posters who are in a heated battle resolve it on their own without comments from the peanut gallery. From what I've noticed 99% of the time the two posters going at it resolve their difference amicably.

best,

Jose


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## Ashermusic (Oct 10, 2010)

Pzy-Clone @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > rabiang @ Sat Oct 09 said:
> ...



Value? Truth? 
Come on now...there is the slight matter of relativity to consider, and personally i value the honest opinion of some young inexperienced person over that of an aging has-been that uses every possible oportunity to beat down on anything or anyone that threatens his position. ( In general terms...not saying you are any of those things in this context).

/quote]

First of all, I am NOT a "has been" I am an "almost was" dammit! 

Seriously, Frederick and other mods, this is why I would love a "pros only" sub-forum. The idea that the opinion of "some young inexperienced person" had as much or more validity that an older more- experienced one would have been considered laughable by earlier generations of musicians like the ones I came up admiring. In those days they would say something like, "Sit down kid,. Watch me, shut up, listen and learn" and that is exactly what I did and it was of great benefit to me so that later on I could make independent choices about what to accept and what to reject from what they taught me. The general lack of respect for the role of experience (and training) in every field has lead to a dumbing down of craft. EVERYONE is now a expert whose opinion must be taken seriously.

Anyway, I doubt this sub-forum will happen. I was just agreeing with synergy 543 that a moderated sub-forum would be a good thing and suggesting some parameters for it.


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## lux (Oct 10, 2010)

disserting about whoìs entitled and who's not entitled to talk has nothing to do with the problems involved with this board.

Probably the obsessive approach Jay has to the matter is not just coming out of his personal beliefs. I think he's trying to find a solution (not the right one from my point of view) to something which of course is evident. 

That this place has lost part of its attractivity due to an increasing amount of unheducated and rude comments. 

My impression is that old members are just givin away this place without much love, which means also feeling entitled to post harshly without provocation, and to cover most of their post with pseudo-cynic comments about how the industry works. Which is per-se a fake attitude as most of the composers here are very sensitive about their work, are very very sensitive about their own future and they probably approach their musical life in a more artistical fashion than what they leave us to believe.

Its just that on this board is being considered cool replying like assholes, both when it comes to reviews, new products, announcements, simple jokes or whatever comes.

if all the replies carried just a bit of sensibility and politeness as an homage to this place and its history probably this entire conversation would not exist. And most likely nobody would care about who's entitled or not to talk

Luca


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## synergy543 (Oct 10, 2010)

Luca, while I agree that sensibility and politeness are key, it only takes one fly to spoil the entire pot of soup. Well, others can drink it, but I'll pass.

btw, what is the gray button between "quote" and "√ report" that says "vote to ban user"? Does it actually work? 
And what does the "√ report" button do? 
Seems like there are already some elements in place to keep abusers in check?
How about a "delete this user for the rest of the "day", "week", "month" button?

And what are the stars? How come people such as Guy Bacos or Mike Verta only have one or two stars and I have a lot? 
Obviously its better to have less stars, so how do I get rid of mine? :roll:


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 10, 2010)

Do those stars mean anything? I only have one star. Does this mean I'm a looser? lol


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## bryla (Oct 10, 2010)

The stars, I think, are given on how nicely you keep your sample library boxes in alphabetical order on your bookshelf.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 10, 2010)

I seem to recall it was how much money you have. Lux is loaded!


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## tmhuud (Oct 10, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> I would love a "just for pros"moderated sub- forum where everyone's identity is disclosed. My hunch is that indeed it would require little to no moderation.


Me thinks you have a good hunch there Jay. o-[][]-o


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## Ashermusic (Oct 10, 2010)

lux @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> disserting about whoìs entitled and who's not entitled to talk has nothing to do with the problems involved with this board.
> 
> Probably the obsessive approach Jay has to the matter is not just coming out of his personal beliefs. I think he's trying to find a solution (not the right one from my point of view) to something which of course is evident.
> 
> ...



I mostly agree with you Luca but you have had one member here who said that he abhors "polite discussions" and clearly there are those here who are provocateurs. Some may view me as one of those but I believe that with the exception of a few instances when I was not at my best, I generally lash out in defense of someone whose work or library is being attacked unfairly in my view, or when a principle I hold dear is being attacked. But I am hardly obsessive about it. As soon as I leave here I do not give it a second's thought.

And anyone can "talk" but if their opinion is harsh and judgemental and yet based on no evident solid foundation, is it really wrong of me, Guy, or anyone else to point that out? In a moderated"pros only" sub-forum it would be less of an issue.


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 10, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> Pzy-Clone @ Sun Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Sun Oct 10 said:
> ...



Can you realy not determine for yourself what is valid or not without suggesting that one should mute the voices that do not meet your very subjective criteria of "value"?


Seems like a very insecure and weak position to me: most likely the experience of the poster will reveal itself without naming names, and it is mine or anyone elses prerogative to say what they please without having to run it by some older statesman`s board of approval, i take great pride in the freedom to make a fool out of myself on any forum u know 

Personally i am a "pro" musician...meaning that it has been my main source of income since the age of 17 or so.
Does that make my comments more valid to you?
Even the silly ones?

Seems like the idea of offering advice is secondary most of the time, above all make sure people know their place huh?

I dont reckognize the problem to begin with, can someone please specify what it is, exactly? 
Are the neighbourhood kids being rude again, not respecting the elders?
yeah...i guess no one saw that one coming 

"EVERYONE is now a expert whose opinion must be taken seriously."

Errr...no.


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## lux (Oct 10, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> I mostly agree with you Luca but you have had one member here who said that he abhors "polite discussions" and clearly there are those here who are provocateurs. Some may view me as one of those but I believe that with the exception of a few instances when I was not at my best, I generally lash out in defense of someone whose work or library is being attacked unfairly in my view, or when a principle I hold dear is being attacked. But I am hardly obsessive about it. As soon as I leave here I do not give it a second's thought.
> 
> And anyone can "talk" but if their opinion is harsh and judgemental and yet based on no evident solid foundation, is it really wrong of me, Guy, or anyone else to point that out? In a moderated"pros only" sub-forum it would be less of an issue.



in all honesty Jay a pros-only forum is probably the worst idea i've heard in a long while. Say that you want a private subforum and i could see your need. But a pros forum doesnt make any sense. 

As said, the good-ol'-composer cafè is something different from vicontrol. This place's importance is expecially due to the fact people grow up reading and meeting other people. Newbies meet professionals and professionals get ideas out of newbies. Dont forget this very last aspect Jay as i bet half professional here earned a few bucks from ideas coming out of very young and talented members. That would make even more unfair a subforum like the one youre suggesting.

Half the members here were amateurs when they joined. Some of them had a career thanks to things learned here. We all owe something to this and other places.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 10, 2010)

lux @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I mostly agree with you Luca but you have had one member here who said that he abhors "polite discussions" and clearly there are those here who are provocateurs. Some may view me as one of those but I believe that with the exception of a few instances when I was not at my best, I generally lash out in defense of someone whose work or library is being attacked unfairly in my view, or when a principle I hold dear is being attacked. But I am hardly obsessive about it. As soon as I leave here I do not give it a second's thought.
> ...



I don't see why a "good-ol'-composer cafè" WITHIN VI-Control should threaten anyone unless you are convinced the pros here would flock to it and ignore the rest.

And if they would do so, does that not perhaps say something about the present functioning of the forum as it is?

Anyway, if others and especially Frederick do not think it is a good idea, it will not happen and I accept that and will continue to try to sort the wheat from the chaff 

It is not a burning issue in my life either way.


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## synergy543 (Oct 10, 2010)

bryla @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> The stars, I think, are given on how nicely you keep your sample library boxes in alphabetical order on your bookshelf.


Oh...of course, that's it!


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## bryla (Oct 10, 2010)

See Greg, you don't get 5 stars for actually having the boxes in correct order, but being the one that takes a picture of it 

really: that's admirable order you got!


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 10, 2010)

What would be interesting is if anybody could band someone but only in YOUR thread.

So if Greg starts a thread and Dick Head started abusing, Greg would have the right to band him on his thread.


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## germancomponist (Oct 10, 2010)

Oh, isn`t this what the most newspapers are doing?


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 10, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> What would be interesting is if anybody could band someone but only in YOUR thread.
> 
> So if Greg starts a thread and Dick Head started abusing, Greg would have the right to band him on his thread.



nah...not sure about that, but what would make sense is a thumbs up\down\approval rating system, like found frequently on other forums?


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## JohnG (Oct 10, 2010)

I am with Jay to this extent; I believe that I've read more careless, overly-general attacks posted by less experienced composers than by those who have developed enough expertise to be making a living at it. This is not of course because money confers good taste or contrition (what an idea!), but because, over decades, using virtual instruments and working with all the issues one faces in getting projects to completion ingrains a bit of perspective that, in general, buffers one's views.

But I wouldn't favour a pros-only forum. 

I like the fact that new participants ask "why" a lot more often and in more areas than some of the more experienced people do. I like the energy from those who persist and who are genuinely interested in finding answers and improving themselves and their craft. I enjoy hearing new music -- all of that.

As objectionable as I (obviously) find indiscriminate condemnations of other composers or the companies that make our tools for us, I wouldn't trade those for a forum in which I think most people would agree with each other.

Some time ago, I naively suggested on Soundsonline that more people use their own names -- real names -- when posting. It provoked an Elizabethan shower of abuse, much of it from pseudonym-posters, which I thought kind of proved my point. Predictably, the proposal generated little traction.


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## germancomponist (Oct 10, 2010)

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## germancomponist (Oct 10, 2010)

JohnG @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Some time ago, I naively suggested on Soundsonline that more people use their own names -- real names -- when posting. It provoked an Elizabethan shower of abuse, much of it from pseudonym-posters, which I thought kind of proved my point. Predictably, the proposal generated little traction.



A very good suggestion!

Only real names, this would be the best solution! o-[][]-o o=<


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 10, 2010)

Except, it could happen that some high profile people may want to chime in but without giving away their real identity. There could could an exception clause....


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## germancomponist (Oct 10, 2010)

Yeah, I know what you mean, Guy, and I know some high profile people who are in forums with their ghost names... .


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## synergy543 (Oct 10, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> What would be interesting is if anybody could band someone but only in YOUR thread.
> 
> So if Greg starts a thread and Dick Head started abusing, Greg would have the right to band him on his thread.



Makes sense for each OP to moderate his own thread. Wouldn't this help get the original point across the best? Its like you're on the podium and you moderate the the class. If you want to boot Dick Head out, then he's gone from your thread and the discussion continues.

Of course, then Dick Head will then go and create his own thread titled "Greg is a Dick Head"....So where does that leave us?

Sometimes its just really obvious who the jerks are, so if enough people clicked on that little gray button, what happens?

Go ahead, test it on me and lets see what happens...Everyone click that gray button.

And if ya don't hear from me again, someone ask Fred to bring me back OK? ~o)


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## synergy543 (Oct 10, 2010)

Guys, I think I have issues....


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 10, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> germancomponist @ Sun Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Pzy-Clone @ Mon Oct 11 said:
> ...



ooh for that you get - 10 Guy!

yeah ok...but the idea of banning people you disagree with does not sound right to me anyway. What purpose would that serve? 

Also ...i dont see why anyones real name matters, im not about to change my opinion or stance based on who im speaking to and his level of acheivement?
Thats the real fake thing to do and it is present here in abundance, i say everyone MUST be anonymous, and run every comment by Chockos board of sarcastic approval before getting posted.


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## rabiang (Oct 10, 2010)

JohnG @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Dear Rabiang,
> 
> You have not been banned. You should get an email shortly with details about something to do with an automatic block of a server (or something like that).
> 
> ...



Whatever happened with my IP/account, its a pretty weird coincidence in time, and that it should only affect vi-control. however, i do agree with you, its time to move on. its just hard not to give examples when ppl compare you to kettles and pots etc. i most certainly also felt that this forum needed a basic introduction to good principles of discussion.

ok, i really need to go make some music now, dont have time for all this.

EDIT: just to be clear, vi control is now working for me without a vpn.


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## synergy543 (Oct 10, 2010)

Pzy-Clone @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> yeah ok...but the idea of banning people you disagree with does not sound right to me anyway. What purpose would that serve?


Well if you look at a thread like your virtual living room...and you want to select whom you allow to stay in your house, then it makes sense. If one guest starts to become rude, you might just want to ask him to leave. It seems like it could serve a useful purpose for continuing the discusssion in your virtual living room with your guests.



Pzy-Clone @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> Also ...i dont see why anyones real name matters...


Well, "if" you were a famous bassist in a famous rock group, I could see why you might want to remain anonymous and keep the girls away...but what's your point? :wink: 

OK, so I let you stay in my thread under the name Pzy-Clone....kewl with me, as long as you behave....no wild rock star antics. But if you show up drunk and start destroying my thread....should that be your "god given right?" Or should I have the right to throw you out? 

Its not like you died or anything....

You could go to another thread and life goes on....


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 10, 2010)

synergy543 @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> Of course, then Dick Head will then go and create his own thread titled "Greg is a Dick Head"....So where does that leave us?



LOL 

But the idea is not to find a good solution anyway, there aren't any. So you have to look for the least lousiest. This one isn't too lousy, I find. Couldn't the forum do a trial period?


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 10, 2010)

> Well, if you were a famous bassist in a famous rock group, I could see why you might want to keep the girls away.
> 
> But what's your point? :wink:
> 
> ...



oh thats crazy talk, are you suggesting i play the bass? !!! ?

Well personally i keep my door open and enjoy having an open and welcoming house, but thats just me. I rarely shut the door on anyone, and most certaintly dont approve of having one slammed in my face.

But then again i can see why some of our senior citiziens would like to keep theirs firmly bolted and locked at all times nowdays, sure. 

But i dont like these suggested ideas of restriction towards what we can say here.
...Before you know it we cannot print charicatures of Jay Asher without having hordes of wild composers roaming the streets in rabid fury. :roll:


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 10, 2010)

Not only it's not a big deal being banned, but the author of the thread could let you back in anytime. Maybe a little apology through pm.


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 10, 2010)

synergy543 @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> And if moderation is on a thread-by-thread basis. Then being banned is not such a big deal. You always get a second chance. But if you continue to be rude, you continue to be banned.
> 
> No censorship, just consequences. And no life-time bans like NS.




How can you control the criteria for banning?

So we should just all start our own private lounges where we ban at will i suppose? You must hold the forum members in higher regard than i , becouse i dont see how this will create anything but private gentlemen`s clubs where everyone can do nothing but pat eachothers backs untill their hands bleed or risk being left out in the cold open space of "the inexperienced youth". 
oh the horror!!!

Also consequences will occour wheter one accepts them or not, in any event.
This IS real life mister, and i would not want to ban anyone...there was somone being banned not so long ago, and i disagreed with thò'Ä   ê­Â'Ä   ê­Ã'Ä   ê­Ä'Ä   ê­Å'Ä   ê­Æ'Ä   ê­Ç'Ä   ê­È'Ä   ê­É'Ä   ê­Ê'Ä   ê­ÿ'Ä   ê® 'Ä   ê®'Ä   ê®'Ä   ê®'Ä   ê®'Ä   ê®'Ä   ê®'Ä   ê®'Ä   ê®'Ä   ê®	'Ä   ê®
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## Guy Bacos (Oct 10, 2010)

Frederick Russ @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Sun Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Not only it's not a big deal being banned, but the author of the thread could let you back in anytime. Maybe a little apology through pm.
> ...



That was my next stage, wondering how feasible this was. Seems it's possible. As we've seen in the past, just one single person could regularly drive many people up the walls, and time after time. I doubt very much that this would be a habit but on extreme cases it would sure make a big difference on the thread.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 10, 2010)

Pzy-Clone @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> If you seriously think using someones lack of impulse control as the anchorpoint for online discussion ( or any discussion) is a good idea i think you need to revalue a few things.
> Going back to the topic matter, giving critique or not....you think there`s ANY form of critique that justifies bashing someone to a bloody pulp??
> 
> Everyone is not something online mister Asher, you just need to upgrade your smartassfilter and block out the static , suggesting that people should censor themselves and make room for substantiality in the world is perhaps asking a bit to much, and im afriad it would become a very very silent place .



You are no doubt correct in your assessment but nonetheless I am going to continue to suggest that people should ask themselves if what they are about to post improves on the silence. 

Is there a from of critique "that justifies bashing someone to a bloody pulp?" No, but when you grow up on the streets of Boston as I did you learn pretty quickly that if you want to survive intact you need to know who you can fuck with and who you cannot. Here on the internet people don't worry about that and I do not think this is entirely a good thing frankly.


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## Animus (Oct 10, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> Pzy-Clone @ Sun Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Sun Oct 10 said:
> ...



Sounds rather elitist to me. Who would get to decide who is "pro" and who is inexperienced exactly, and what "kind" of experience are we to quantify and qualify?? And are you sure you would be invited?


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 10, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Pzy-Clone @ Sun Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > If you seriously think using someones lack of impulse control as the anchorpoint for online discussion ( or any discussion) is a good idea i think you need to revalue a few things.
> ...



yes , all of which i can agree with to some extent. 
What im saying is that lets keep thing in perspective...im sure none of those "mean streets of Boston gangfights" you were cought up in were the result of passionate sample library debate? 

In any event, the way i see it is that if someone cant take the heat here, they are in for a rude awakening when they put themselves out there for sale in the "real world".

In this regard i think the level of scrutiny and critique here offers a good micro-cosmic training ground for what goes on in the world of music : Once you put yourself out there...there is realy no way of "banning" dissenting voices and unfair harsh comments, this is very much the real world as it is, people will say what they feel like regardless of their "validity" and experience, the same applies very much so to music critics that supposedly have some of the former. 

How can you deal with it? Being aggressive is certaintly one option, altho you can realy only do your best and stand your ground imo, dont see why banning and such on this or other forums serves any form of purpose beyond giving a false sense of security and politeness that you wont find elsewhere, not even on the streets of Boston i suspect.


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## Animus (Oct 10, 2010)

Pzy-Clone @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon Oct 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Pzy-Clone @ Sun Oct 10 said:
> ...




+1 This place would turn into a vsl Silent Stage, with everyone talking to themselves.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 10, 2010)

quote]

Sounds rather elitist to me. Who would get to decide who is "pro" and who is inexperienced exactly, and what "kind" of experience are we to quantify and qualify?? And are you sure you would be invited?[/quote]

Oh yeah, the elitist thing. It is not a dirty word to me.

You know what? I started to make a list of what I have done in response but I am not going to do that. Anyone who visits my website can decide for themselves if I am a pro.


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## rabiang (Oct 10, 2010)

the point is: communcation and progress is in principle degraded once one looks at external factors first.

its perfectly acceptable to explain a persons opinion or argument with a person's age or whatever. but using a person's age or experience to discredit the argument is detrimental to pretty much all persuit of knowledge. it might be a good filter for you in your daily life, but thats it.


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## synergy543 (Oct 10, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> ...Anyway, I doubt this sub-forum will happen. I was just agreeing with synergy 543 that a moderated sub-forum would be a good thing and suggesting some parameters for it.


Just to clarify, Jay and I are talking about completely different ideas. I am not suggesting exclusivity or censorship, I'm suggesting courteous conduct and respect towards each other.

Jay, I don't understand the focus and importance on being a "pro". I've learned things by watching little kids love what they're doing more than pros. And this forum was built by the participation of many young forum members - some who have gone on to become "pros".

Why define criteria? Why not simply request reasonable courteous conduct? If a pro acts like an idiot, is it OK for him to disrupt a discussion simply because he's "pro"? Does a drunk David Hasselhoff trying to revive his music career qualify because he's a "pro", but 16 yr old Jasper Blunk (winner of the CS Contest) doesn't because he's too young? Or Evan Gamble can no longer participate because he's 'just a student' at Julliard and hasn't yet gone "pro"?

Why not keep the forum 'as is', without censorship. But simply require reasonably courteous conduct - and only "warn" members (ask them to take a break from the thread) when their conduct becomes hurtful, malicious, egregiously disruptive, or their intent is clearly harmful (towards somebody else) and not constructive. And then, only resort to banning them from a single thread if they do not wish to be co-operative. This would be the least invasive type of censorship. All members can participate constructively if they wish regardless of their gender, age, or pro status. And there would be no possibility of extended censorship abuse as happened on NS.

And this wouldn't stop Jay creating a "Hollywood-Only Pro - Level Users" thread too. Not working in Hollywood, I can respect that, and not join in with my 2 cents in that particular thread. We all respect each other within the boundaries of courteous exchange.

I really can see no "downside" to very light moderation "simply" requesting courtesy and respect.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 10, 2010)

synergy543 @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > ...Anyway, I doubt this sub-forum will happen. I was just agreeing with synergy 543 that a moderated sub-forum would be a good thing and suggesting some parameters for it.
> ...



1. The ONLY censorship I have suggested is self -censorship. I am not in favor of banning from the forum or even a thread except in the case of racist or anti-semetic remarks, which happened here only once that I can remember. So please do not misrepresent my position.

2. When someone suggested a sub-forum I posited the idea that a pros only sub-forum might be a good thing. Clearly, it is not resonating, so fine. I am not that emotionally invested in it.

3. Being a "pro" is only important if you deem it to be important. It is important to me because as a young man, competent professional composers and musicians were the people I looked up to, my heroes, and wI have worked hard to become that.

4. If you believe that someone who is very experienced is just as likely to learn just as much from a young inexperienced person than another experienced one or an even more experienced one, you are free to believe that. I simply do not because my experience has led me to believe otherwise. And reading the comments that I regularly read here on people's compositions has not altered that belief. 

5. You wrote: "I have learned things by watching little kids love what they're doing more than pros." 
Not about composition, theory, harmony, counterpoint, etc. you haven't, because if you had you would be one lousy composer and musician. And since this is a composition review thread, it was my understanding we are discussing that and not any larger life lessons you may feel you learn from children.

It is a shame it is out of print but I wish many of you could get a hold of Henry Mancini's book "Did They Mention the Music?" Then you would understand better where I 'm coming from. Clearly attitudes have changed since he wrote the book however but IMHO not for the better.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 10, 2010)

+1 to Synergy above.


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## synergy543 (Oct 10, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> 1. The ONLY censorship I have suggested is self -censorship. I am not in favor of banning from the forum or even a thread except in the case of racist or anti-semetic remarks, which happened here only once that I can remember. So please do not misrepresent my position.


My apologies, I've made changes to reflect only my opinions.



Ashermusic @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> 4. If you believe that someone who is very experienced is just as likely to learn just as much from a young inexperienced person than another experienced one or an even more experienced one, you are free to believe that. I simply do not because my experience has led me to believe otherwise. And reading the comments that I read here on people's compositions has not altered that belief.


I think many members here are younger than me. And yes, I think I can learn from them. I'm not such an old arrogant dog yet, to think I'm above learning from someone who has more skill or knowledge than me just because they are younger. This old dog might still be able to learn a trick or two...I hope.

And... 

6. You're fighting the wrong guy. We're really on the same side...I think (read my revision carefully). And choose the battles you want to fight. Do you really disagree with what I say to the point of burying the points in argument? We could end up being the choir bickering amongst itself while the hooligans laugh their big fat asses off on the steps outside.


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## bryla (Oct 10, 2010)

Pzy-Clone @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> How can you control the criteria for banning?
> 
> So we should just all start our own private lounges where we ban at will i suppose? You must hold the forum members in higher regard than i , becouse i dont see how this will create anything but private gentlemen`s clubs where everyone can do nothing but pat eachothers backs untill their hands bleed or risk being left out in the cold open space of "the inexperienced youth".
> oh the horror!!!


so they don't improve.

Isn't the whole idea that you have a link to your webiste and your real name stated along with e-mail as your signature. People can see who you are and where you're coming from and when they are fed up with you, they can e-mail you and take it from there.

Then again this would eliminate the great minds we have here that for one reason or another (understable) wish to be anonymous.


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## Hannes_F (Oct 11, 2010)

synergy543 @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Guys, I think I have issues....



HAHAHA ..... I tried that once, too. Very funny.


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## lux (Oct 11, 2010)

synergy543 @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > ...Anyway, I doubt this sub-forum will happen. I was just agreeing with synergy 543 that a moderated sub-forum would be a good thing and suggesting some parameters for it.
> ...



I second that. You stole almost entirely what i was about to write... :mrgreen: 

One thing to consider also is that we could change the rules allowing moderators to be a bit more effective, in the sense of being able to keep things straight on topic, which is something hasnt been done here, but works fine on Kvraudio from a long time. And Kvraudio has waaaay a more tough userbase than here. But thats also because most of the moderators are people which rarely post anymore here, so probably they cant keep an eye on it nor theyre really interested to probably. So maybe new acquirements as moderators could be a nice idea too.


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 11, 2010)

bryla @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Pzy-Clone @ Mon Oct 11 said:
> 
> 
> > How can you control the criteria for banning?
> ...



Im not sure what part of my post you are replying to, but certaintly there can be more variations to why and how a person whishes to communicate and respond on a forum, not everyone has the need to use every available means to force his entire work history upon everyone at any given time.

I dont see why i should be so available and why everyone must see who i am, if they have any slight interest in mine or someone elses personal data, im sure a few seconds of google could eliviate those needs.

Personally i prefer to remain rather vague, becouse i have spendt a great deal of my life being accsessible to others on all kinds of levels and in my experience, and much reflected in the opinions of people like Mr Asher, the way someone responds and interacts with you completely changes when there is a factor of reckognisability involved, in the eventuality that that would be the case.
Which most likely it wouldnt be anyway.

But mostly it is just not interesting in the context of this forum, perhaps it creates some level of insecurity for some people that enjoy the scenster games and politics of the music biz and endless rants of namedropping ?


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 11, 2010)

I don't understand what is the fear of being able to ban. This is just like real life, when someone steps out of line or become extremely unpleasant in a group conversation, people walk away from this person, and often the person knows the consequences the next time he's with these people. But on the internet, these same potentially trouble makers know they have unlimited powers in that regard and will take advantage of it, and more often because they can't do that in real life. There needs to some sort of action taken when we get these abusive behaviors, even though it may be small, but you certainly don't want to encourage that, and by doing nothing that's what we are doing. For every one trouble maker you will get a dozen people not happy, and he knows it and doesn't give a shit, because he lives for this, and again, it's because he's hiding behind his monitor he is such a wise guy. Personally, I can't stand people who get away with this. It's not as if this is the perfect solution, but if it's between A and B, I will choose a solution where I will be able to avoid some of the past extreme annoyances such as by this one fellow on the forum.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 11, 2010)

I welcome comments by non-pros. They have a POV that is quite different from pros (whose opinion I also value, for different reasons). I'm not so sure that a Pro section would be very active, since professionals 'tend' to be very busy.

BTW, about those stars: look at the Joined date and count the years to 2010.


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 11, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> I don't understand what is the fear of being able to ban. This is just like real life, when someone steps out of line or become extremely unpleasant in a group conversation, people walk away from this person, and often the person knows the consequences the next time he's with these people. But on the internet, these same potentially trouble makers know they have unlimited powers in that regard and will take advantage of it, and more often because they can't do that in real life. There needs to some sort of action taken when we get these abusive behaviors, even though it may be small, but you certainly don't want to encourage that, and by doing nothing that's what we are doing. For every one trouble maker you will get a dozen people not happy, and he knows it and doesn't give a [email protected]#t, because he lives for this, and again, it's because he's hiding behind his monitor he is such a wise guy. Personally, I can't stand people who get away with this. It's not as if this is the perfect solution, but if it's between A and B, I will choose a solution where I will be able to avoid some of the past extreme annoyances such as by this one fellow on the forum.



Dont you see how that could create an enviroment where people might be afraid to speak their minds and share their critique , especially towards the more "established" posters...? 

Which is perhaps what some would want offcourse, but much like "real life" as everyone keeps stating...there is no ban button for annoying people, you deal with them or walk away from the confrontation alltogether.

The real harassement is dealt with by moderators anyway, its not as if people get away with murder in here as it is now?

And offcourse what constitutes a troublemaker in your eyes might be an interesting and fruitfull conversation for others, a private ban system would leave open the room for so much whimsical subjectivity that it would stifle the raw and rewarding nature of a forum like this imo.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 11, 2010)

Pzy-Clone @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> And offcourse what constitutes a troublemaker in your eyes might be an interesting and fruitfull conversation for others, a private ban system would leave open the room for so much whimsical subjectivity that it would stifle the raw and rewarding nature of a forum like this imo.



Let's be practical here though. I would of loved to see how you would of handled Narval. And in your shows, do you enjoy trouble makers? It is your show and you like to have the right to say, this person is abusing his rights and running my show. Right? Well this happens sometimes when someone will post a work he has worked very hard on, and Dick Head is just waiting for the opportunity to maliciously come down on your piece. This is a very, very, small minority of the people I'm talking about, but it does happen from time to time. I understand you don't want to hurt anybody's feelings with the banning issue, but when the person knows he is deliberately making trouble despite other members constantly telling him to cool down, you are not hurting his feelings. And what about your own feelings and frustrations and all the years you put to study while some clown is enjoying his liberty of saying ANYTHING he wants?


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## Ashermusic (Oct 11, 2010)

[quote="synergy543 @ Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:51 pm".[/quote]
I think many members here are younger than me. And yes, I think I can learn from them. I'm not such an old arrogant dog yet, to think I'm above learning from someone who has more skill or knowledge than me just because they are younger. This old dog might still be able to learn a trick or two...I hope.

And... 

6. You're fighting the wrong guy. We're really on the same side...I think (read my revision carefully). And choose the battles you want to fight. Do you really disagree with what I say to the point of burying the points in argument? We could end up being the choir bickering amongst itself while the hooligans laugh their big fat asses off on the steps outside.[/quote]

I certainly think it is possible to learn from younger people too. But I know that the way I thought about musical things when I was 21 and fresh out of the Conservatory playing clubs in Boston was not really valid and I only learned that from experience. And while in my mind I thought I knew it all, as most young people do, what I was smart enough to recognize because my Dad (a drummer) was wise enough to teach it to me, was that the best way to improve was to be around those who actually do what you aspire to do and listen more to their ideas, recommendations, and opinions, and give fewer of your own. This attitude however is I realize quite old fashioned.

And I am not looking to" fight" with anyone. My approach here is to state my opinion as clearly as possible and without rancor. If however, I am defending someone whose work has been attacked nastily or unfairly or if I receive an impolite or disrespectful response, I will probably respond in kind. It is not a coincidence that the discussion between you and me has remained polite.


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 11, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Pzy-Clone @ Mon Oct 11 said:
> 
> 
> > And offcourse what constitutes a troublemaker in your eyes might be an interesting and fruitfull conversation for others, a private ban system would leave open the room for so much whimsical subjectivity that it would stifle the raw and rewarding nature of a forum like this imo.
> ...



Well in the case you mention i would have ignored him completely, i dont recall the specifics of the thread but was there something so completely over the top that it constituted excluding him? Perhaps you feel so, but thats precisely my case..a thread here does not "belong" to the author as such , its not realy "your" show..is it?

In any event ,we ARE the troublemakers at our shows u know 

Well sure, anyone can say whatever they want, within certain limits offcourse.
I dont see that as problematic, and in the event that it goes too far there are moderators. Works for me, but offcourse everyone has different needs and tolorance levels, i get that as well.

You might feel that something is said with malicious intent, im not sure thats always so obvious for everyone else all the time.


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## Hannes_F (Oct 11, 2010)

After following this thread for a while I think that it all boils down to one conclusion: We will not find any better composer friends than here in your life. Let us make the best of it.

There might be exceptions for those that live in Hollywood or London or find a similar community in another forum. But by and large I think it is true for the most.

I know I have hurt some people here too, but it is not good. Because they will be still around in ten or twenty years and me too, probably. The troublemakers come and go.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 11, 2010)

Pzy-clone, I could understand you angle, but from my end and many other people with whom I've spoken about this through pm, I'm far from being alone with these frustrations, so it is not an isolated thing. You almost make it sound is if I'm paranoid


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## Hannes_F (Oct 11, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Pzy-clone, I could understand you angle, but from my end and many other people with whom I've spoken about this through pm, I'm far from being alone with these frustrations, so it is not an isolated thing. You almost make it sound is if I'm paranoid



Guy you are certainly not paranoid.

But what I do not really understand was one situation where I took some action in a discussion between you and Narval and tried to moderate. In that thread you expressed emphatically that you did not appreciate any third person to take action, and for a while after that I got flak from both of you haha :mrgreen: 

So ... there was somebody of the community caring about the situation but you did not want it and settle it all alone. Now you want more moderation. This seems a little contradictory, no?

All written in the best intensions, so please don't flak again =o


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 11, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Pzy-clone, I could understand you angle, but from my end and many other people with whom I've spoken about this through pm, I'm far from being alone with these frustrations, so it is not an isolated thing. You almost make it sound is if I'm paranoid



Absolutely not paranoid, but from following your threads on occasion, perhaps a bit thin-skinned , yes.

Nothing wrong with that, i just dont agree with excluding uncomfortable opinions for the sake of "politeness".

If somone has the urge to rip apart my music or posts i would much rather hear it upfront and take it under consideration, thats the potential "danger" of making your music public and will prevail even if one chooses to not listen, and if anything you will just create more bad blood and add fuel to the fire by banning them?

But in any event, its not such a big deal..im sure most can adapt in any event, it just would reduce some of the potency of this place, but offcourse if the majority of posters are uncomfortable with the current situation then that would be a good cause for stricter moderation, sure. 
I respect that.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 11, 2010)

It's not necessarily thin skin, even though I am  But it's tiresome after a while.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 11, 2010)

Anyway, things are fine at the moment, so I'm not complaining the way it currently is, but if a situation were to repeat itself as we had one not too long ago, and a bunch of people including the mods knows what and who I'm talking about, I would be extremely disappointed if there would be as much tolerance.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 11, 2010)

I really don't know what your problem is or what you ate this morning re-peat, but maybe you should do your homework before posting lies after lies. I beg you to read all of my demo threads, and and you'll see that at least 90% of the time when someone has given some advice, I tell them they are right and will fix this, (with the ONLY exception of Narval). *THIS* is why I post my music here, and I do enjoy the compliments. Do you have a problem with that? 

When you go after someone, you could be quite venomous, and I think you should also learn a thing or two about how you criticize others. Seems I'm not the only one who could work on himself....


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## Ashermusic (Oct 11, 2010)

OK, maybe banning is not such a bad idea 

Guy, unfortunately too many people make no distinction between liberty and license. Welcome to the "my character has been assassinated by re-peat" club of which I am a charter member.


And Psy-Clone, this is what I am talking about. If re-peat were to say to me in person what he just wrote to Guy, unless he is 6'4 and 240 lbs, I guarantee you I would punch him.


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## synergy543 (Oct 11, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> I certainly think it is possible to learn from younger people too. But I know that the way I thought about musical things when I was 21 and fresh out of the Conservatory playing clubs in Boston was not really valid and I only learned that from experience. And while in my mind I thought I knew it all, as most young people do, what I was smart enough to recognize because my Dad (a drummer) was wise enough to teach it to me, was that the best way to improve was to be around those who actually do what you aspire to do and listen more to their ideas, recommendations, and opinions, and give fewer of your own. This attitude however is I realize quite old fashioned.


Your comment is quite interesting to me Jay because in one sense I agree with you and have the deepest respect for those before me who've worked hard to pay their dues and to my elder mentors who kindly spent a great deal of time sharing their knowledge with me. However as I see it, there is also sort of a paradigm shift going on. We're now so dependent upon computer technology for our work and many of the most adept and skilled users are not my elders, but the younger TJs, Mike Vertas, Guy Bacos's and others. So I now find myself looking to the younger generation as leading the way in the directions that I'm interested in. Yet, when it comes to composition, mostly I spend time studying the dead masters more than the live ones. So for me, there's a schism between respect for the young and the old and I find age to be much less a factor.

Things have changed. Beethoven didn't not have to worry about his piano technology or whether it was compatible with 64-bit OS, or whether his snazzy Q6600 was really considered a power machine or not, or whether he really needs to invest in the next gen Xeon Turbo 96-core with Quad SSDs to play his latest string quartet.

Sometimes life feels like one step forward and two steps back.


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## Craig Sharmat (Oct 11, 2010)

it is well documented that one of man's main characteristics is to feel important. The vast majority of us want this. when we type we want our words read and when we compose music we want it heard and liked. There is little difference in the end result. A healthy dose of ego is not a bad thing but an unchecked ego is. I have not read all of Guy's posts but I know he often admits problems in his own pieces. Maybe there is an ego issue i am unaware of but unless he is hurting others with his approach there is no reason to attack him.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 11, 2010)

Your comment is quite interesting to me Jay because in one sense I agree with you and have the deepest respect for those before me who've worked hard to pay their dues and to my elder mentors who kindly spent a great deal of time sharing their knowledge with me. However as I see it, there is also sort of a paradigm shift going on. We're now so dependent upon computer technology for our work and many of the most adept and skilled users are not my elders, but the younger TJs, Mike Vertas, Guy Bacos's and others. So I now find myself looking to the younger generation as leading the way in the directions that I'm interested in. .
[/quote]

OK, but here for me is the salient point: Despite the fact that they are younger, Mike Verta, Guy Bacos, T.J. Bergenson, etc. all have a record of professional accomplishment and/or demonstrated their considerable skills repeatedly. So if I were to post a composition, of course, I would take their comments very seriously. 

And all of them conduct themselves in a highly professional and courteous manner.


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## synergy543 (Oct 11, 2010)

Wow, that'll teach me to start posting before I read to the end of a thread...

I agree very much with what Craig says "A healthy dose of ego is not a bad thing but an unchecked ego is".

Re-peat, how could you possibly make such a judgmental character assassination against anyone based simply on their forum posts here? Isn't that a bit presumptuous?

Guy has kindly allowed me into his inner-circle of friendship and shared a deeper aspect of his private life and thoughts than what you can simply ascertain by reading his posts here. I don't feel its appropriate for me to summarize all I know about Guy's life on a public forum although your accusation of him being driven by ego couldn't be further from the mark. He puts dedication, hard work, and perfection into what he does far beyond what you could possibly know. It is not ego, but natural human pride that he feels towards his own work when he is done. And why would you belittle him for that or deny him that little bit of pleasure after so many grueling hours of work?

Repeat, I understand you are a very passionate person and once you lock-in on something, you tend to focus intensely and not let go. However, please don't confuse your mis-guided psycho-analytic attack with the passion that you should direct towards your music. For no matter how brilliant your music, no rational society (or forum) would tolerate your behavior if you start attacking and harming others.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 11, 2010)

Good lord.

I think re-peat may have one - ONE - valid point. To ignore stupid, hurtful or ignorant comments is in many ways the best policy. Admittedly, this is easier said than done.

Of course, by my own logic, I shouldn't even be posting this...


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## Hannes_F (Oct 11, 2010)

Well our personal ego seems to be the cryptonite for almost any of us, it is in our human nature that we struggle with it, some more, some less, but nobody is free from it. For any greatness in art in resonance with our inner self that ego needs to be refined and become unpersonal almost entirely.

Whew ... this sounds declamatory but that is my deepest conviction. Hmm ... yet I know I am far from it ...


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## Ashermusic (Oct 11, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Good lord.
> 
> I think re-peat may have one - ONE - valid point. To ignore stupid, hurtful or ignorant comments is in many ways the best policy. Admittedly, this is easier said than done.
> 
> Of course, by my own logic, I shouldn't even be posting this...



Respectfully, I am going to disagree. Bad behavior should be called out. Several times when I am perceived to have done something wrong and it has been pointed out to me, I have given it thought and when appropriate I have apologized and tried to not do it again. While I do not always succeed, I want to be held accountable.

But I do not believe it is in re-peat's character to do so, so all we can do (and should IMHO) is condemn the behavior with no expectation that it will change.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 11, 2010)

re-peat @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> and then PM some of these people asking them to please post a reply in Your Threads? (Surely, I’m not the only one that you’ve approached with these pathetic requests?). To me, that is little short of pathological and it’s also the reason, by the way, why I will never comment on any of Your Pieces ever again.
> 
> 
> _






From time to time I may let some friends know that I have posted a new piece, since they don't regularly visit the forum, and am very interested in what they think. But I email friends not more than 10-15 times a year. Please step up if there is a gang I do this with. Anyway, This included re-peat a few times I had asked him because I respected his criticisms, good or bad, I thought he would take this as a compliment, apparently not. I don't appreciate his attempt to twist this in a way to make me look bad to others.

Repeat, You have all the right in the world for free speech as you delicately put it, but seems your definition of "free speech" is posting things with lies or assuming what ever you want...


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## nikolas (Oct 11, 2010)

I really can't think of a valid reason for Repeat's personal attack. And his post, clearly constitutes a personal attack to Guy! :(

I'm rather dissapointed I sorry to say from this whole thread... :-/


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## José Herring (Oct 11, 2010)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> While I think that some good things were said in this thread, Re-Peat's attack on Guy was outrageous, underserved, rude, and rotten.


Agreed. Totally mean spirited.


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## madbulk (Oct 11, 2010)

I'm repeating myself but oh, nothing beats visiting a thread, jumping to the end, remembering that it started out so innocently with "why post critiques of compositions?" and now it's gone six pages and currently ends with "Outrageous and Rotten." and "Yeah, so what are you gonna do, Ned?"
Man, this rocks.

edit: (jumps happily back to page three or so where he left off a few days back.)


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## poseur (Oct 11, 2010)

i often listen to what folks have been posting, w/o offering any comment at all;
i wanna know what people are writing & presenting,
in hopes that i'll enjoy it, learn something from it, etc,
and to have some miniature musical context for who-we-are, here on VI-c.

i do post if i really like a piece, its intent, sound, etc,
to offer support.

i post, once in a while, if i have some criticism that i think may be of value,
but that's a really rarified moment.....
..... unless i am asked for my opinion, and specifically/personally so,
which is also rare.

d


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 11, 2010)

Back to the thread now.


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## BeefSteakJonesIII (Oct 11, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> OK, but here for me is the salient point: Despite the fact that they are younger, Mike Verta, Guy Bacos, T.J. Bergenson, etc. all have a record of professional accomplishment and/or demonstrated their considerable skills repeatedly. So if I were to post a composition, of course, I would take their comments very seriously.
> 
> And all of them conduct themselves in a highly professional and courteous manner.



Really? Here are some comments from one of the names mentioned above which were posted on a file sharing website.
I'm curious to know if you think this is the conduct of somebody highly professional and courteous.
To give a clue and help narrow it down, it wasn't Guy or TJ.

_"It's almost a good impression of the Silvestri it's ripped off from! Too bad Silvestri's dead (apparently); he would've been a good call for this movie, inasmuch as anything decent in the music is literally from his score. By the way - the bit at 1:13 is as comical as anything Peter Schickele ever did. For those of you who want to know what it sounds like when a composer has absolutely nothing to say and can't sustain development for more than 5 seconds, this is an ideal example. When he mercifully tires of repeating the same bar over and over, he concludes the "statement" with Silvestri's original motif, note-for-note, off the page. That's how modern "composers" write now.
Hey film music fans: don't look now, but the Fourth Horseman rode by a while ago.

I wouldn't mind the lack of originality if Debney's music was music. Horner is a thief, but he can also write music if he feels like it, in stark contrast. This offering is offensively poor.
Actually, at this point I don't care if you remake a car bolt-for-bolt, so long as iò)[   ë)[   ë)\   ë	)\   ë
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)`   ë)`   ë)`   ë )`   ë)`   ë)`   ë)`   ë)`   ë)`   ë)`   ë)`   ë)`   ë)`   ë)`   ë)`   ë)`   ë)`   ë)`   ë)`   ë)`   ë)`   ë)`   ë )`   ë!)`   ë")`   ë#)`   ë$)`   ë%)`   ë&)`   ë')`   ë()`_


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## wqaxsz (Oct 11, 2010)

Hi,

I post if i like a lot a composition. 
Giving advice why would i ? I think with a little bit of time, distance
and better monitoring the composer can figure out the bad things on his own (technical issues, ringing, phasing issues, tuning...)
the rest for me is just music, artistical choice and i leave it to that.

Off topic:
i am really disappointed. wow ! some posts were removed.
This site for me is getting worse and worse.
Some people since their arrival have made it a fight forum
with a regressive global mentality.
"Strangely" a lot of threads end up badly and nobody seem to notice. 
I understand nobody's music is famous (and can be associated with their names)
so obviously people are in the hanging, the need even angry or frustrated. 
That's why the "Member composition review" is important.

I think some people are too tight-minded, in need of a directed approval 
and can't handle the truth:
there is no control and yes the other can be sooo different
and is not necessarily going to like you or react like you want him to.
But most of all it doesn't matter. Life is no Love club.

Learn not to care and laugh, i try and you know what it works. 

Regards.

TneruaL


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 11, 2010)

BSJ3 - I suppose using the name re-re-peat would have been a little obvious....


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## Ashermusic (Oct 11, 2010)

BeefSteakJonesIII @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon Oct 11 said:
> 
> 
> > OK, but here for me is the salient point: Despite the fact that they are younger, Mike Verta, Guy Bacos, T.J. Bergenson, etc. all have a record of professional accomplishment and/or demonstrated their considerable skills repeatedly. So if I were to post a composition, of course, I would take their comments very seriously.
> ...



Really? Here are some comments from one of the names mentioned above which were posted on a file sharing website.
I'm curious to know if you think this is the conduct of somebody highly professional and courteous.
To give a clue and help narrow it down, it wasn't Guy or TJ.

_"It's almost a good impression of the Silvestri it's ripped off from! Too bad Silvestri's dead (apparently); he would've been a good call for this movie, inasmuch as anything decent in the music is literally from his score. By the way - the bit at 1:13 is as comical as anything Peter Schickele ever did. For those of you who want to know what it sounds like when a composer has absolutely nothing to say and can't sustain development for more than 5 seconds, this is an ideal example. When he mercifully tires of repeating the same bar overò)h   ë)h   ë)h   ë‘)h   ë’)h   ë“)h   ë”)i   ë•)i   ë–)i   ë—)i   ë˜)i   ë™)i   ëš)i   ë›)i   ëœ)i   ë)i   ëž)i   ëŸ)i   ë )i   ë¡)i   ë¢)i   ë£)i   ë¤)i   ë¥)i   ë¦)i   ë§)i   ë¨)i   ë©)i   ëª)i   ë«)i   ë¬)j   ë­)j   ë®)j   ë¯)j   ë°)j   ë±)j   ë²)j   ë³)j   ë´)j   ëµ)j   ë¶)j   ë·)j   ë¸)j   ë¹)j   ëº)j   ë»)j   ë¼)j   ë½)j   ë¾)j   ë¿)j   ëÀ)j   ëÁ)j   ëÂ)j   ëÃ)j   ëÄ)j   ëÅ)j   ëÆ)j   ëÇ)j   ëÈ)j   ëÉ)j   ëÊ)j   ëË)j   ëÌ)j   ëÍ)j   ëÎ)j   ëÏ)j   ëÐ)j   ëÑ)j   ëÒ)j   ëÓ)j   ëÔ)j   ëÕ)j   ëÖ)j   ë×)j   ëØ)j   ëÙ)j   ëÚ)j   ëÛ)j   ëÜ)j   ëÝ)j   ëÞ)j   ëß)j   ëà)j   ëá)j   ëâ)j   ëã)j   ëä)j   ëå)j   ëæ)j   ëç)j   ëè)j   ëé)j   ëê)j   ëë)j   ëì)j   ëí)j   ëî)j   ëï)j   ëð)j   ëñ)j   ëò)j   ëó)j   ëô)j   ëõ)j   ëö)j   ë÷)j   ëø)j   ëù)j   ëú)j   ëû)j   ëü)j   ëý)j   ëþ              ò)j   ë )j   ë)j   ë)j   ë)j   ë)j   ë)j   ë)j   ë)j   ë)j   ë	)j   ë
)j   ë)j   ë)j   ë )j   ë)j   ë)j   ë)j   ë)j   ë)j   ë)j   ë)j   ë)j   ë)j   ë)j   ë)j   ë)j   ë)k   ë)k   ë)k   ë)k   ë)k   ë)k   ë )k   ë!)k   ë")k   ë#)k   ë$)k   ë%)k   ë&)k   ë')k   ë()k   ë))k   ë*)k   ë+)k   ë,)k   ë-)k   ë.)k   ë/)k   ë0)k   ë1)k   ë2)k   ë3)k   ë4)k   ë5)k   ë6)k   ë7)k   ë8)k   ë9)k   ë:)k   ë;)k   ë<)k   ë=)k   ë>)k   ë?)k   ë@)k   ëA)k   ëB)k   ëC)k   ëD)k   ëE)k   ëF)k   ëG)k   ëH)l   ëI)l   ëJ)l   ëK)l   ëL)l   ëM)l   ëN)l   ëO)l   ëP)l   ëQ)l   ëR)l   ëS)l   ëT)l   ëU)l   ëV)l   ëW)l   ëX)l   ëY)l   ëZ)m   ë[)m   ë\)m   ë])m   ë^)m   ë_)m   ë`)m   ëa)m   ëb)m   ëc)m   ëd)m   ëe)m   ëf)m   ëg)m   ëh)m   ëi)m   ëj)m   ëk)m   ël)m   ëm)m   ën)m   ëo              ò)m   ëq)m   ër)m   ës)m   ët)m   ëu)m   ëv)m   ëw)m   ëx)m   ëy)m   ëz)m   ë{)m   ë|)m   ë})m   ë~)m   ë)m   ë€)m   ë)m   ë‚)m   ëƒ)m   ë„)m   ë…)m   ë†)m   ë‡)m   ëˆ)m   ë‰)m   ëŠ)m   ë‹)m   ëŒ)m   ë)m   ëŽ)m   ë)m   ë)m   ë‘)m   ë’)m   ë“)m   ë”)m   ë•)m   ë–)m   ë—)m   ë˜)m   ë™)m   ëš)m   ë›)m   ëœ)m   ë)m   ëž)m   ëŸ)m   ë )m   ë¡)m   ë¢)m   ë£)m   ë¤)m   ë¥)m   ë¦)m   ë§)m   ë¨)m   ë©)m   ëª)m   ë«)m   ë¬)m   ë­)m   ë®)m   ë¯)m   ë°)m   ë±)m   ë²)m   ë³)m   ë´)m   ëµ)m   ë¶)m   ë·)m   ë¸)m   ë¹)m   ëº)m   ë»)m   ë¼)m   ë½)m   ë¾)m   ë¿)m   ëÀ)m   ëÁ)m   ëÂ)m   ëÃ)m   ëÄ)m   ëÅ)m   ëÆ)m   ëÇ)m   ëÈ)m   ëÉ)m   ëÊ)m   ëË)m   ëÌ)m   ëÍ)m   ëÎ)m   ëÏ)m   ëÐ)m   ëÑ)m   ëÒ)m   ëÓ)m   ëÔ)m   ëÕ)m   ëÖ)m   ë×)m   ëØ)m   ëÙ)m   ëÚ)m   ëK)m   ëL)n   ëÛ)n   ëÜ)n   ëÝ)n   ëÞ              ò)n   ëà)n   ëá)n   ëâ)n   ëã)n   ëä)n   ëå)n   ëæ)o   ëç)o   ëè)o   ëé)o   ëê)o   ëë)o   ëì)o   ëí)o   ëî)o   ëï)o   ëð)o   ëñ)o   ëò)o   ëó)o   ëô)o   ëõ)o   ëö)o   ë÷)o   ëø)o   ëù)o   ëú)o   ëû)o   ëü)o   ëý)o   ëþ)o   ëÿ)o   ë )o   ë)o   ë)o   ë)o   ë)o   ë)o   ë)o   ë)o   ë)o   ë	)o   ë
)o   ë)o   ë)o   ë )o   ë)o   ë)o   ë)o   ë)o   ë)o   ë)o   ë)o   ë)o   ë)o   ë_


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## nikolas (Oct 11, 2010)

wqaxsz: So... a teacher is useless then? A tutor is useless then? The members recording forum is useless then? If I'm reading correctly what you said.

On the off topic section of your post: The forum is what YOU make it to be. You and every other member here. The staff is doing everything possible to keep it civil, but at the same time reserve the spirit for which VI was born! (BTW, long live VI!)


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## hbuus (Oct 12, 2010)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> While I think that some good things were said in this thread, Re-Peat's attack on Guy was outrageous, underserved, rude, and rotten.



I didn't get a chance to read re-peat's post. Was it removed by a moderator?
I do believe in letting things be the way they were posted for all to see.
If anything, an outrageous and rude attack, to borrow your words, Ned, will usually only fall back on the poster. So why remove the post?

Best,
Henrik


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## P.T. (Oct 12, 2010)

Some people thought it would be helpful to civility if people were required to give their real names and other info.

I wonder why.
Will they go beat up these people for their behavior?
Will they try to ruin their lives?

There are many, many very uncivil people in the world.

I do not let them into my home and I do not associate with them.

These people come on forums and do the equivalent of taking a big smelly dump in the middle of our clubhouse and then proceed to fling it about the room.

Then, they are allowed to come back and do it some more.

These people need to be ostracized. Not humored. Not tolerated.
They are destructive to the society of decent people.

When they come back, they should be completely ignored.
They do not exist.
Reign in your egos and refrain from engaging them.

Or more simply. Do not feed the trolls.

One forum that I visit has a feature where you can mute people. Their posts don't show up.
I will mute half the people on a forum if I have to to keep their filth out of my head.
Some people call it my weakness. I don't care.

I know it is a fairly big responsibility to ban people and moderators don't like to do it too easily, which is good, but then, by not banning people they run the risk of allowing the forum to be ruined.

When enough bad behavior infests a forum, decent people leave.
Is that what we want?


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## germancomponist (Oct 12, 2010)

In a short sentence: Better we let it be as it is.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 12, 2010)

Dear Beefsteak,

a) you really should post something like that using your real name. Otherwise, it looks like you're missing some cojones, and just stirring a wasp's nest for fun; b) I don't know how others feel, but I couldn't give a rat's ass what someone said on another forum, in the men's bathroom, behind the 7-11, etc.


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## lux (Oct 12, 2010)

who deleted re-peat's post?

really, this thing is getting silly and deleting posts is even more silly. I'll ask Frederick to give things a look as i think things are getting out of control. 

I think this thread can be locked as nothing useful is coming out. 

There are dozens of other forums out there and they all work fine with the classic rules. The "ban dissenting guys from my thread" thing is silly enough as much as having subforums related to how cool and professional (annual income?) one is sounds like a nightmare idea.

Lets calm down, vicontrol works as every other parallel forum works out there. nothing less, nothing more.

If not enough control is given here maybe we just need more moderators.


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## nikolas (Oct 12, 2010)

The move of Repeat's posts to the mod area was a mass decision from the vi mods and admins! How are things getting out of control? And anyways is vi somehow on trial or something here? I don't get it...

It's really weird because vi is populated by grown ups mainly, mature people, professionals, who shouldn't be acting like that. And yet here we are...

lux, you think that not moving Repeat's posts but locking the thread would be a better idea? Cause I don't and I do think that there are things to learn in this thread.

(EDITED my post slightly to be more clear)


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 12, 2010)

I agree Luca. Thread locked.

By the way, the posts were not deleted - they were split off from public view by myself to allow the thread to continue in public. My mistake - I'm human. The posts remain in the moderation room away from public view because of the nature of the viciousness of the personal attack against one of our members. Sorry.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 12, 2010)

Piet singled out and attacked a member in a particularly mean fashion. He had been warned and temporarily banned 8 months for similar behaviour towards others. The two offending posts were deleted, but archived. If you've been here long enough, you know that this kind of thing has happened before, but it's very rare.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 12, 2010)

Also, it would really great if some of the veterans here (I'm talking 4 stars or more) could step in and support useful Mod actions - it's not like you don't know us and our general hands-off policy.


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