# Help with Sketching/Organizing



## billval3 (Sep 29, 2009)

I really struggle with how to organize my musical ideas. I can read and write music. That's not the problem. And I can come up with melodies, harmonies, rhythmic accompaniments, etc.

Where I get stuck is at the stage of shaping a piece of music inside of a sequencer. I'm a little better at it when I work in a notation program, but I don't want to have to rely on writing everything out first.

Can you guys share some thoughts on how you organize your ideas? How do you go about sketching something (whether to picture or not)? What do you include? How do you handle transitional material? Do you organize some things on paper first? If so, how and what?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## mf (Sep 30, 2009)

In my humble opinion, you should, by trial and error, find a workflow that makes you feel so comfortable that you simply forget about it, and then focus on the music rather than on methods and techniques. If sketching the piece on the paper helps you keep an eye on the whole, then that's what works for you, so don't renounce it. Think of the sequencer as of a scroll of paper, a physical piano roll on a pianola. If you think will help, you can insert markers at page turns so that it matches what you have on paper.


----------



## gsilbers (Sep 30, 2009)

billval3 @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> how to organize it all from within the sequencer. I think it's the limitation of working on a screen. You can't see all of the music all at once. I'm thinking I need to figure out a method of sketching first on paper so I can see the whole picture and work from there.
> 
> .




can u expand on the above? 

i dont understand how u dont see alll the music at once?

but to jump ahead... 

do you have a template with all the instruments or sections of an orchestra already loaded?


as for structure.. from a comp class... 
write out structures u going to follow
ABA
ABACBA
ABCDCBA
ABABAC
etc


----------



## billval3 (Oct 1, 2009)

gsilbers @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> billval3 @ Wed Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> > how to organize it all from within the sequencer. I think it's the limitation of working on a screen. You can't see all of the music all at once. I'm thinking I need to figure out a method of sketching first on paper so I can see the whole picture and work from there.
> ...



Yes, I have a template set up. And yes, I have tried writing out the structure like that. It's helpful.

I think the main problem is that I've been getting overwhelmed by trying to fill in details without seeing the overall "lay of the land" first.

Maybe it would help if I ask a more specific question. For those of you that do some type of sketch first:

1. How many lines do you do?
2. What do you purposely leave out?


----------



## Johnny22 (Oct 1, 2009)

Perhaps you could start first with just the melodie, just sequence your chords (harmony) with an String ensemble patch for the time being.

Concentrate on your melodie instrument, that should be fairly easy to do, after that you could write out your chords like in a score, violins soprano voice etc.

Chunking makes life easier, hope this helps a bit!


----------



## billval3 (Oct 5, 2009)

I think I realized what part of the problem is yesterday: samples.

I get too easily distracted by the sound of the samples as opposed to doing the writing. In Sibelius (for example), this isn't so much a problem because I don't EXPECT the samples to sound good. I can just write and worry about making it sound "real" later.


----------



## Hannes_F (Oct 5, 2009)

billval3 @ Mon Oct 05 said:


> I think I realized what part of the problem is yesterday: samples.
> 
> I get too easily distracted by the sound of the samples as opposed to doing the writing. In Sibelius (for example), this isn't so much a problem because I don't EXPECT the samples to sound good. I can just write and worry about making it sound "real" later.



That is why I often just use piano or vibraphone samples until the main idea is captured.


----------



## billval3 (Oct 5, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Mon Oct 05 said:


> billval3 @ Mon Oct 05 said:
> 
> 
> > I think I realized what part of the problem is yesterday: samples.
> ...



Yes, I know that people do that. I guess what I've wondered is what people include in that kind of a sketch. Obviously, the melody is going to be there, but what else? Do you sketch harmonies the way you plan to actually voice them? Or do you just put in block chords to begin with. Do you write out rhythmic accompaniments?

I know these are general questions...maybe it's different every time. I'm just curious how different people approach this.


----------



## TheoKrueger (Oct 5, 2009)

I don't know if this is helpful or not, but here are some videos i did recently that focus on writing with the piano roll:

http://www.youtube.com/theodorkruegermusic

And here is the video that seems to be the favorite: http://www.youtube.com/theodorkruegermusic#play/uploads/5/4w3e15IcoCY (http://www.youtube.com/theodorkruegermu ... w3e15IcoCY)

I think that the piano roll is a great tool because you can actually see how the composition is progressing visually. Its also easy to experiment with notes and progressions by simply selecting a chord and moving it up and down, copy pasting, changing notes and using the scrub tool to see how it sounds in realtime.

Leaving your imagination open for the next chord and knowing the progression options by heart and ear is a key. Listening to Bach and studying his midis can help you learn how many different ways of changing chords and moving through various scales by shifting various notes can help a melody keep evolving where it seems to be stuck. He also has a magical way imho of creating musical colours that just attract the ear even with a simple harpsichord sound.

I also believe that writing with a basic sound is very helpful instead of trying to go for the orchestration straight away because it helps you hear the piece in a more pure way. The equal volume of all the piano notes also helps. Then you can always divide the voices to other instruments. But sometimes a sound is meant for a piece and then its best to write with that sound.

Personally I mostly write the melody first and then put the bass and chords, but i work the other way around also where the rythm is equally or more important than the melody. 

A nice trick is to also keep a constant chord (Lets say A minor) and then move the bass around to different notes to get a different sounding chord. You could play A minor with an A bass, and then play A minor with a F# bass, then go to Gmajor, then Gmajor with a E for bass. It changes the colour of the chords and makes it sound more elaborate as well.

Hope this helps somehow... I might have strayed a bit from the original question.

I think all ways of writing lead to something and perhaps knowing more ways rather than trying to narrow down your options will help the inspiration flowing more at times of a "wròG÷   ²l\G÷   ²


----------



## Frederick Russ (Oct 5, 2009)

Hannes_F said:


> That is why I often just use piano or vibraphone samples until the main idea is captured.





billval3 said:


> I get too easily distracted by the sound of the samples as opposed to doing the writing. In Sibelius (for example), this isn't so much a problem because I don't EXPECT the samples to sound good. I can just write and worry about making it sound "real" later.



These particular work flows are the very best approaches in my opinion - especially in light of growing sequencer templates. With just piano or another instrument of your choice, develop a clear idea - simple and clearly stated of what you want. Same goes for getting solid ideas in Sibelius with no worries about how it sounds at that stage. These then become the blueprint for your arrangement, either simple or complex.


----------



## billval3 (Oct 6, 2009)

Thanks so much for your responses, guys! Somehow I missed these yesterday. I sent you a PM, Leon. And Theo, I'm at work now, but will check out those links when I get home!


----------



## gsilbers (Oct 6, 2009)

So to take it a step further , 

What happens to me is that I think I have a great melody and sketch from piano or guitar
but then when I go to the sequencer it doesn't sound liked I was thinking.
Any tips on that?


----------



## careyford (Oct 6, 2009)

Bill: A lot of my process depends on the piece I'm composing. Frequently, I'll do a very quick sketch on paper then go to the sequencer. I like how this works a lot. The sketch is usually simple, 2 to 4 staves with instrumentation written in where I know what I want. 

If I'm composing directly into the sequencer, I like to use the Marker function to group sections. I find it also helpful to name regions with something more meaningful than the instrument name. For instance, "A Theme Partial" or "Root Movement with Embellishment". This makes it easy for me to identify what's happening and how it interacts. 

gsilbers: If something composed on paper or at the piano, doesn't sound right, the culprit for me is often that the sequencing is flat or stiff and needs more variation in tempo. Sometimes it also needs a little Altiverb. I have a Samplicity patch saved as channel strip so that I can add it in a couple clicks whenever I'm ready. Often helps to just change a sample or two.

Hope this is helpful.
Richard


----------



## billval3 (Oct 6, 2009)

[quote:d781fb7c98="careyford @ Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:14 am"]If I'm composing directly into the sequencer, I like to use the Marker function to group sections. I find it also helpful to name regions with something more meaningful than the instrument name. For instance, "A TheòH”   ²’±H”   ²’²H”   ²’³H”   ²’´H”   ²’µH”   ²’¶H”   ²’·H”   ²’¸H”   ²’¹H”   ²’ºH”   ²’»H”   ²’¼H”   ²’½H”   ²’¾H”   ²’¿H”   ²’ÀH”   ²’ÁH”   ²’ÂH”   ²’ÃH”   ²’ÄH”   ²’ÅH”   ²’ÆH”   ²’ÇH”   ²’ÈH”   ²’ÉH”   ²’ÊH”   ²’ËH”   ²’ÌH”   ²’ÍH”   ²’ÎH”   ²’ÏH”   ²’ÐH”   ²’ÑH”   ²’ÒH”   ²’ÓH”   ²’ÔH”   ²’ÕH”   ²’ÖH”   ²’×H”   ²’ØH”   ²’ÙH”   ²’ÚH”   ²’ÛH”


----------



## careyford (Oct 6, 2009)

Glad to help! 

I also watched Theo's YouTube videos. It jumped out at me that he had multiple instruments selected in piano roll so that he could see the notes of all the parts without having to switch views. He made good use of scrubbing sections to see if he liked what he had too. If you are composing on the fly this would be a big help. I'm going to try it out tomorrow on some rewrites I need to get through.

Best,
Richard


----------



## billval3 (Oct 6, 2009)

Theo, what I've seen so far is pretty amazing! What's really cool is that I also use Sonar, so everything looks familiar. Your speed blows my mind, though! 

A couple things I've picked up already:

1. Using the scrub tool on midi. For whatever reason, I hadn't thought of that.
2. Copying batches of notes by holding down Ctrl.

I take it that you input the notes with the "Snap to Grid" function on? Do you run into problems with things sounding too mechanical that way?

I'm looking forward to watching some more soon.


----------

