# To be PRO or not to be



## palu (Apr 22, 2015)

After doing some commercial music from time to time I thinking about slowly shifting my main job from video editing to making music. I’m thinking mostly about doing music for games - I’ve did some in the past and it was fun.

I’m considering becoming a member of a PRO (I’m from Europe/Poland and we have ZAiKS here). Does it have any impact on music-for-games work? Is it better NOT to be a member of a PRO or is it not important at all?

And if you are a member of a PRO - what kind of royalties (if any) you get for this kind of work?


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## RiffWraith (Apr 22, 2015)

I can't speak for PROs in other countries, but if they are anything like ASCAP/BMI here, there is no reason not to join.

Games in general do not generate performance royalty income - when was the last time a game was aired on TV or on the radio? But you should register anyway, on the off-chance that a piece of music you write for the game gets used in a broadcast medium.

I am not understanding tho - you have been doing commercial music, but are not a member of your PRO?

Cheers.


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## Daryl (Apr 22, 2015)

RiffWraith @ Wed Apr 22 said:


> Games in general do not generate performance royalty income - when was the last time a game was aired on TV or on the radio? But you should register anyway, on the off-chance that a piece of music you write for the game gets used in a broadcast medium.


Riff, do you know what happens when games are Broadcast on Youtube? Thee are people making millions by playing games and having their YouTube channel subscribers watch them play, so in that case would Broadcast Royalties be paid?

D


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## palu (Apr 22, 2015)

RiffWraith @ Wed Apr 22 said:


> I am not understanding tho - you have been doing commercial music, but are not a member of your PRO?



I was getting paid just for writing the music - there were only two tracks that were broadcasted on tv. And I treated it more like a hobby.

I didn't think at the time that it was worth to register in PRO. I'm getting royalties for my editing work and I'm not getting much money. And the PRO here in Poland is rather unfriendly and really bureaucratic .


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## palu (Apr 22, 2015)

Daryl @ Wed Apr 22 said:


> Riff, do you know what happens when games are Broadcast on Youtube? Thee are people making millions by playing games and having their YouTube channel subscribers watch them play, so in that case would Broadcast Royalties be paid?



Don't know about royalties, but you can try to monetize on the ads on such channels via AdRev and similiar content id services.


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## RiffWraith (Apr 22, 2015)

Daryl @ Wed Apr 22 said:


> RiffWraith @ Wed Apr 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Games in general do not generate performance royalty income - when was the last time a game was aired on TV or on the radio? But you should register anyway, on the off-chance that a piece of music you write for the game gets used in a broadcast medium.
> ...



You know - that's a good Q. It all depends on whether or not game music on yt is included in the surveys of the particular PRO you belong to. That of course, you would have to find out from them directly.

Cheers.


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## rgames (Apr 22, 2015)

As said above, for a US PRO, there's no good reason to *not* join unless you're concerned that some client prohibits you from being a member.

I've encountered those types a couple times (both music libraries) but upon further discussion it became clear that the owner/publisher was ignorant about what rights copyright owners have to license their music. So, from the library's standpoint, there was no real reason to require someone to not be a member of a PRO but the library thought there was.

However, as with most things in life, perception is reality and there are folks who won't work with you if you're a member of a PRO.

rgames


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## MichaelL (Apr 22, 2015)

RiffWraith @ Wed Apr 22 said:


> Daryl @ Wed Apr 22 said:
> 
> 
> > RiffWraith @ Wed Apr 22 said:
> ...




Perhaps this interview answers some of these questions. 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=408548302651366


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## RiffWraith (Apr 23, 2015)

MichaelL @ Thu Apr 23 said:


> Perhaps this interview answers some of these questions.
> https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=408548302651366



Well, that taught me absolutely nothing! :lol: Thanks for the link, tho 

Just called ASCAP. They DO survey game music on yt. As long as the work is registered (up to the pub. to do that, be it you or someone else), then you will receive performance royalties.

Of course, I cant speak for PROs in other countries... you would have to check with them.

Cheers.


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## MichaelL (Apr 23, 2015)

RiffWraith @ Thu Apr 23 said:


> Well, that taught me absolutely nothing! :lol: Thanks for the link, tho
> 
> .



I'll have to watch it again, but I think he said that he assigned all of the royalties from the music in question "Silver...???" to his girlfriend, and she said that enabled her to buy a house, so she could do her music, or something along those lines. I got the impression that it was a lot of money....not your average box of chocolates.

At any rate, it was a cue use in a game


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## Carles (Apr 23, 2015)

palu @ Thu Apr 23 said:


> ...And the PRO here in Poland is rather unfriendly and really bureaucratic .



Palu, you don't need to pick your PRO in base to the country that holds your nationality. You can in fact be member of more than one PRO.

Some months ago I was in similar situation and I wish that the Spanish was unfriendly and bureaucratic "only", because in Spain is even worst. Seems that some SGAE people steal your money and SGAE is in court for that reason. Apparently they collect your royalties and put the money in someone's pocket shamelessly.

Not really inspiring I have to say... so I'm member of PRS (Spanish, living in New Zealand, member of a British PRO).

Carles


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## RiffWraith (Apr 23, 2015)

MichaelL @ Fri Apr 24 said:


> I'll have to watch it again, but I think he said that he assigned all of the royalties from the music in question "Silver...???" to his girlfriend, and she said that enabled her to buy a house, so she could do her music, or something along those lines. I got the impression that it was a lot of money....not your average box of chocolates.



Right - he assigned "all of the royalties plus all of the profits" (whatever that means) to her, and that has now enabled her to focus entirely on music (apparently she is a composer as well). No house involved :lol:

I don't know.... of course you are right - this is not your average box of chocolates (note to self... must get chocolate!), but how much are we talking here? I guess that all depends on what the other "profits" are.. up-front sync fee, perhaps?. If you look at the yt "SS" views, there are many millions.... say it's 10 mil. He doesn't own the publishing; Killer Tracks hired him to do that track, so that's theirs. I assume he has all the writer's... how much money in writer's perf. royalties would 10mil yt views generate?


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## Daryl (Apr 24, 2015)

RiffWraith @ Fri Apr 24 said:


> ... how much money in writer's perf. royalties would 10mil yt views generate?


About £10, I would imagine. :lol: 

D


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## doctornine (Apr 24, 2015)

Daryl @ Fri Apr 24 said:


> RiffWraith @ Fri Apr 24 said:
> 
> 
> > ... how much money in writer's perf. royalties would 10mil yt views generate?
> ...



and sadly thats a generous estimate.


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## pixel (Apr 24, 2015)

Simply: don't. You can register in any PRO in UE. I'm Polish origin. Probably you heard the same stories about Zaiks that I have heard and you know why Zaiks is not good "company" to go with. 
I released a lot of music without them. 



> Is it better NOT to be a member of a PRO or is it not important at all


It depends, working with small companies, small success it's simple to control by yourself.



> And if you are a member of a PRO - what kind of royalties (if any) you get for this kind of work?


With zaiks? To be honest: none. For all my polish friends (bands managers, label managers etc) co-op with zaiks is like nightmare. No royalities. Hard to get anything even with tunes played in commercial radio stations. Zaiks is a joke. Avoid them. 
Check in UK, Germany (I heard that BEMA is also hard to work with but I can't tell it from my experience)

Pozdrawiam, Mirek


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## MR F (Apr 24, 2015)

@pixel: +1000 Don't join zaiks. I'm from Poland and I personally went for BMI (US). Whatever you do, zaiks is the worst possible way. Especially if you want to work with music libraries abroad and hoping to get placements there.


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## palu (Apr 25, 2015)

Thanks for all the info especially about ZAiKS (Dzięki!  ). It's a surprise for me that I can be a member of a non-polish PRO. I have to think this all again from the beginning it seems.

What if I have music that is broadcasted in polish tv (which I have) and I am a member of a non-polish PRO? (sorry - I'm new at this)

And what made you Carles to choose PRS and MR F to choose BMI? If you want to share it of course .


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## MR F (Apr 26, 2015)

For me it was simple. Most of my clients are from US and given ZAIKS reputation, there was no point for me to stick with Polish PRO. People from BMI have been very helpful with tax forms, documents etc. Night and day when you compare them with zaiks.


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## palu (May 8, 2015)

I will go with PRS - I'm in the middle of applying now. Time will tell if it's a good decision, but I'm sure it's better than choosing ZAiKS.


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## JohnG (May 8, 2015)

rgames @ 22nd April 2015 said:


> there are folks who won't work with you if you're a member of a PRO.
> 
> rgames



I have never met anyone who had a problem with BMI or ASCAP. I never heard of that. Sheesh.


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## MichaelL (May 8, 2015)

JohnG @ Fri May 08 said:


> rgames @ 22nd April 2015 said:
> 
> 
> > there are folks who won't work with you if you're a member of a PRO.
> ...



http://audiojungle.net, and many others at the lower end of the spectrum.


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## palu (May 9, 2015)

Yup - it's common on microstocks. They want to sell the music that is 100% royalty-free. And there are PROs (like the mentioned ZAiKS in Poland) that make you register all your music with them with no exceptions.

Another example are companies selling music for business use like background music in a shop or a barber .


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