# Negotiating compensation for low/no budget projects



## Kejero (Dec 20, 2010)

Started this topic at the EastWest forums as well, but I figured it would be interesting to get as many thoughts as possible, so here I go.

When you just start out as a composer for media, most gigs you'll get will tend to be low budget (or even no-budget...). In this thread I'd like to collect any suggestions for negotiating compensation and avoiding having to work for nothing but the mere bullshit "exposure" and "having your name in the credits" that penniless producers and directors will often proudly offer you.

To start off, I think it's a good idea to get permission to use artwork from the project if you decide to release a soundtrack on your own afterwards. Even if you don't have such plans at the moment that you negotiate the deal, it might be a good idea to ask for this anyway. If anything, you should at the very least be allowed to use artwork/stills on your website.

Obviously, as far as rights go: try to keep all of them. A low/no budget shouldn't get the producer more than a license to use your work. Never do "work for hire" if you're not getting paid (much). Definitely get 100% writer's share, and go for 100% publishing rights as well, so you might at least get some decent royalties and you're allowed to exploit the music in other ways (like releasing a soundtrack).

Another suggestion, courtesy of Deane Ogden over at www.scorecastonline.com, is to talk about what the producer might be able to do for you. He might for instance be able to get you a discount on a piece of gear you've been dying to get.

There's a good chance that your low budget producer/director isn't doing movies/games/... for a living: they might have a full time job which could create an opportunity to offer you something in return -- even if it hasn't got anything directly to do with "being a composer".

Any other thoughts?


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## wst3 (Dec 20, 2010)

Kejero @ Mon Dec 20 said:


> Started this topic at the EastWest forums as well, but I figured it would be interesting to get as many thoughts as possible, so here I go.


And thanks for doing this - it's an issue for almost all creative types, and the answers are not as clear as one would think they should be!



Kejero said:


> To start off, I think it's a good idea to get permission to use artwork from the project


I think that's a huge point, and it extends far beyond the artwork. When I first started doing production work I did a lot of singer/songwriter demos. It never dawned on me that a singer/songwriter might not want every possible avenue of exposure, so I did not explicitly ask permission to include their work on my demo reel. When I'd ask after the fact I was turned down 100% of the time. So I added that as a clause to my contract, and a couple of prospects asked that it be stricken, but mostly people agreed. But I still wasn't clear enough, they wanted me to include the entire song, so I had to revise the contract again to specify that I might include only part of a song. At which point I also added a clause that stated I was not obligated to include anything<G>!

Lesson leaned - ask permission first!



Kejero said:


> Obviously, as far as rights go: try to keep all of them<snip>


Absolutely! Never ever give up your rights. If you can, try to license your work instead of performing "works for hire" - you may get some push-back, but since it is low budget you have some leverage.



Kejero said:


> Another suggestion, courtesy of Deane Ogden over at www.scorecastonline.com, is to talk about what the producer might be able to do for you. He might for instance be able to get you a discount on a piece of gear you've been dying to get.


I agree, but be careful - there are people out there that will promise you the world, but either can't, or won't deliver. I'll spare the group my tale of woe, but in this case my lesson learned was to make sure that whatever is being bartered is real.



Kejero said:


> There's a good chance that your low budget producer/director isn't doing movies/games/... for a living: they might have a full time job which could create an opportunity to offer you something in return -- even if it hasn't got anything directly to do with "being a composer".


See above... my tale of woe involves exactly this sort of trade arrangement. It seemed like a good idea at the time<G>... but it was a complete loss, and I won't work with those people again.



Kejero said:


> Any other thoughts?


First - do not be afraid to say no... your time is worth something! If the deal is not attractive to you walk away. You may be surprised at how often walking away turns a low or no budget deal into something that is reasonable.

Second - most people place a value on something based on what they pay for it. Sad, but true, if you work for nothing, or close to that, you will be labeled as the person that works cheap or for free, and that is a darned difficult label to get rid of!

Third - do not shy away from speculative projects, but be aware of all the details. I've worked on spec projects that benefited me in ways I never imagined, even though I didn't 'win' - I met folks, and I learned stuff. BUT, sometimes the agency running the 'contest' has a hidden agenda, so be watchful.

Last - pretty much any entertainment related field is difficult to break into, there is an element of luck as well as an element of talent or skill. You need to be in the right place, at the right time, with the chops to deliver... that can be tricky, and the only way it happens is to get some exposure - and the folks that spend money on the creative arts know this!

Happy hunting!


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## impressions (Dec 27, 2010)

if music is 50% of the film(seriously we all know that it makes up for a lot of bad acting and directing) how come directors or producers invest so much money on the other stuff, which most probably cost a small fortune, but save so little for the composer-if any?
regarding the topic, i say drive a hard bargain, know your worth, and you might be surprised. there is always some other composer who is willing to do it free but you have to be good enough to worth spending that money which i guess everyone in the production cares so little about, from my short experience.
while negotiating the contract i'm always afraid he'll run off, so i have to be nice even though i'm pissed off.


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## midphase (Dec 27, 2010)

There is always little to no money left for music mostly because there are no standards to plug into the budget at the outset....so everyone just tosses in there some bs amount that they know has no meaning...and when things get tight during production, one of the first places that they "borrow" from is the music budget.

In order to get good at negotiating...you have to come to grips with one simple but important rule: be ready to walk away.

If you can't do that, you can't negotiate...simple as that.


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