# New M1 Pro and M1 Max MacBooks!



## gsilbers

Well, im sold. Finally 64gb of ram. 

But...


$3499 for 64gb ram and 10 core. 1tb ssd. 

If it can beat a mac pro/equivalent intel/amd for that price and its that small i guess its totally worth it.


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## davidson

Meh, i wanted an upgraded m1 mini.


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## BassClef

davidson said:


> Meh, i wanted an upgraded m1 mini.


Me too... but might go for a loaded MacBook Pro and a docking station!


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## thesteelydane

gsilbers said:


> Well, im sold. Finally 64gb of ram.
> 
> But...
> 
> 
> $3499 for 64gb ram and 10 core. 1tb ssd.
> 
> If it can beat a mac pro/equivalent intel/amd for that price and its that small i guess its totally worth it.


It’s a lot of money, and I want to see some real world tests of large templates first, but if it’s as good as I think, it will probably last you at least 4 years, and then it’s less than $1000/year for that much portable power. At least that’s how my mind has already begun justifying it…


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## gsilbers

thesteelydane said:


> It’s a lot of money, and I want to see some real world tests of large templates first, but if it’s as good as I think, it will probably last you at least 4 years, and then it’s less than $1000/year for that much portable power. At least that’s how my mind has already begun justifying it…



yeah, true. and big template i guess its also depends on who is doing it. Some are using more than 128gb of ram. 

and apple has been doing the monthly installments for a while, so about $200 a month or so for a while might justify it. 

I have the m1 macook air and its crazy good. the issue of course, its all the apps and plugins that still dont work very well yet. and its only 16gb

but impressive specs for sure. based on some of the graphics they mentioned, they seem to be very fast. obvously they just say simialr PC but dont go into which pc etc. just like a generic standard.


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## gsilbers

davidson said:


> Meh, i wanted an upgraded m1 mini.



I wonder why they skipped it. it was part of the rumors. maybe theyll leave it for later with the mac cube or whatever they said was the rumor of a smaller desktop.

seems apples is spreading these video events to not throw too much stuff at once.


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## thesteelydane

gsilbers said:


> yeah, true. and big template i guess its also depends on who is doing it. Some are using more than 128gb of ram.
> 
> and apple has been doing the monthly installments for a while, so about $200 a month or so for a while might justify it.
> 
> I have the m1 macook air and its crazy good. the issue of course, its all the apps and plugins that still dont work very well yet. and its only 16gb
> 
> but impressive specs for sure. based on some of the graphics they mentioned, they seem to be very fast. obvously they just say simialr PC but dont go into which pc etc. just like a generic standard.


I suspect we will be able to lower kontakt’s preload buffer to 6kb on these machines without it breaking a sweat, so that will help a lot too. Pure speculation at this point of course. For me, I’d like to pair it with a 64GB mini for the ultimate in portable power.


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## tsk

Was hoping for a new Mac Mini as well.

Three Thunderbolt 4 ports on the new macbook pro models, is that right? Plus one HMDI. Now I have to get an adapter to plug in my USB 3 devices. Like my interface.


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## charlieclouser

Ordered the most bricked-out one they have. 16" M1max, 64gb, 8tb. Says delivery is Nov 5-10. 

Big bucks, yes, but this will be only the third laptop I've bought in 20 years. Core2duo 17", then my current 2012 matte-screen pre-retina i7, and finally M1max! 9 years of use on this one and still going strong, so I figure I'm getting my money's worth out of these machines.

And with an 8tb internal drive I can actually do meaningful music work on it with no external drives, and that will let me really evaluate Apple Silicon, Rosetta, Monterey, etc., and let me make a more educated decision about whether to splash for the final round of Intel Mac Pro or wait another year for an Apple Silicon pro machine.

Not sorry to say goodbye to Intel laptops - yes, my current one is old but it is an i7 and even some webpages make the fans kick on. We'll see if M1max changes this....


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## tsk

Also, I would have liked details on the new headphone jack supporting high impedance headphones. What does this actually mean?


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## handz

Wake me up when m1MAX iMAC will be available...

No, seriously THIS is finally it these m1 were a nice start but this is when things are getting serious, for music this is overkill, but for people who also do 3D and other super hungry stuff, I am excited!


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## handz

gsilbers said:


> Well, im sold. Finally 64gb of ram.
> 
> But...
> 
> 
> $3499 for 64gb ram and 10 core. 1tb ssd.
> 
> If it can beat a mac pro/equivalent intel/amd for that price and its that small i guess its totally worth it.


that is horrible of course, but apple and extra anything always was insanity, can RAM be updated or it is solded there in factory?


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## rnb_2

The lowest price you can get 64GB is $3299 for the 14", $3499 for 16".


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## gsilbers

thesteelydane said:


> I suspect we will be able to lower kontakt’s preload buffer to 6kb on these machines without it breaking a sweat, so that will help a lot too. Pure speculation at this point of course. For me, I’d like to pair it with a 64GB mini for the ultimate in portable power.



yeah thall be interesting. i confess i did have some issues with that on the macbook air. but also its loading all of them so maybe i was too close to the ram cieling. exited to see how the 64gb ram will perform


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## JyTy

charlieclouser said:


> Ordered the most bricked-out one they have. 16" M1max, 64gb, 8tb. Says delivery is Nov 5-10.
> 
> Big bucks, yes, but this will be only the third laptop I've bought in 20 years. Core2duo 17", then my current 2012 matte-screen pre-retina i7, and finally M1max! 9 years of use on this one and still going strong, so I figure I'm getting my money's worth out of these machines.
> 
> And with an 8tb internal drive I can actually do meaningful music work on it with no external drives, and that will let me really evaluate Apple Silicon, Rosetta, Monterey, etc., and let me make a more educated decision about whether to splash for the final round of Intel Mac Pro or wait another year for an Apple Silicon pro machine.
> 
> Not sorry to say goodbye to Intel laptops - yes, my current one is old but it is an i7 and even some webpages make the fans kick on. We'll see if M1max changes this....


Same on my end! My last macbook pro lasted for 10years of heavy abuse - and still running!! Repaid itself hundreds of times over and more… Worth every penny! I’m just going with a Pro an 32gb of RAM, no need for all that GPU and my RAM hungry stuff will stay on slave build… but looking forward to try their M1, only been hearing amazing things about it from everyone I know.


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## gsilbers

charlieclouser said:


> Ordered the most bricked-out one they have. 16" M1max, 64gb, 8tb. Says delivery is Nov 5-10.
> 
> Big bucks, yes, but this will be only the third laptop I've bought in 20 years. Core2duo 17", then my current 2012 matte-screen pre-retina i7, and finally M1max! 9 years of use on this one and still going strong, so I figure I'm getting my money's worth out of these machines.
> 
> And with an 8tb internal drive I can actually do meaningful music work on it with no external drives, and that will let me really evaluate Apple Silicon, Rosetta, Monterey, etc., and let me make a more educated decision about whether to splash for the final round of Intel Mac Pro or wait another year for an Apple Silicon pro machine.
> 
> Not sorry to say goodbye to Intel laptops - yes, my current one is old but it is an i7 and even some webpages make the fans kick on. We'll see if M1max changes this....



itll be interesting the two energy efficient cores. i returned a i9 macbook intel cuz its fan was crazy loud just doing basic stuff. and even though these will be better, i still wonder once you hit it with bigger projects if the fan will eventually reach those levels.


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## handz

charlieclouser said:


> Ordered the most bricked-out one they have. 16" M1max, 64gb, 8tb. Says delivery is Nov 5-10.
> 
> Big bucks, yes, but this will be only the third laptop I've bought in 20 years. Core2duo 17", then my current 2012 matte-screen pre-retina i7, and finally M1max! 9 years of use on this one and still going strong, so I figure I'm getting my money's worth out of these machines.
> 
> And with an 8tb internal drive I can actually do meaningful music work on it with no external drives, and that will let me really evaluate Apple Silicon, Rosetta, Monterey, etc., and let me make a more educated decision about whether to splash for the final round of Intel Mac Pro or wait another year for an Apple Silicon pro machine.
> 
> Not sorry to say goodbye to Intel laptops - yes, my current one is old but it is an i7 and even some webpages make the fans kick on. We'll see if M1max changes this....


oh wow, that 8tb - OH WOW! Of course, external drives suck, so its good idea to put there larger you can (if it cant be changed at home) but I really do not get why so many people are into laptops - its always a compromise, and do you really carry 6000 machines around? I think iMAC will be way better machine for less money.


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## gsilbers

handz said:


> Wake me up when m1MAX iMAC will be available...
> 
> No, seriously THIS is finally it these m1 were a nice start but this is when things are getting serious, for music this is overkill, but for people who also do 3D and other super hungry stuff, I am excited!



yep, i saw all those gpu cores and i was like... how about much less of those... and a lot more ram


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## gsilbers

rnb_2 said:


> The lowest price you can get 64GB is $3299 for the 14", $3499 for 16".



ah good. its about the same as older macbooks an intel i9 pricing i think. heck, i think i spent more an i9 macbook w 64gb ram. 

it might be that the issue is that next year, itll be m2x with 128gb of ram and i HAVE to get that right ? lol. and so on every year.


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## Dewdman42

now we're getting somewhere. I could definitely live with 64gb. I don't need or want a laptop so I'll keep waiting for now...but the tech is well on its way...2022 should be interesting for us.

Now we just need Apple to build a more sophisticated audio interface directly into the consolidated CPU architecture for unheard of low latency and we will all be in heaven.


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## handz

3DC said:


> Still not true 4096 × 2160 pipeline for 3D rendering and animation. I am guessing you would need at least 128 Core M1Max for this. But at least now it seems possible - hopefully for reasonable price.


I think that the m1max will be interesting. 


Anyway, Apple, why the hell you cant have one consumer and one Pro chip... :-I


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## Cinebient

If I would make a living from music I also would order the 16.2" right now. I would be one of the few missing the TouchBar, especially for music performance related things but the rest looks impressive.
Good that its just a wet dream for me and my little M1 MacBook does so far everything I need (I have the 16GB RAM version). 
But once I would like to step up my game I think Apple silicon is the way for me. Intel and AMD looks not so great anymore.


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## samphony

charlieclouser said:


> Ordered the most bricked-out one they have. 16" M1max, 64gb, 8tb. Says delivery is Nov 5-10.
> 
> Big bucks, yes, but this will be only the third laptop I've bought in 20 years. Core2duo 17", then my current 2012 matte-screen pre-retina i7, and finally M1max! 9 years of use on this one and still going strong, so I figure I'm getting my money's worth out of these machines.
> 
> And with an 8tb internal drive I can actually do meaningful music work on it with no external drives, and that will let me really evaluate Apple Silicon, Rosetta, Monterey, etc., and let me make a more educated decision about whether to splash for the final round of Intel Mac Pro or wait another year for an Apple Silicon pro machine.
> 
> Not sorry to say goodbye to Intel laptops - yes, my current one is old but it is an i7 and even some webpages make the fans kick on. We'll see if M1max changes this....



Ordered 2.


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## StefVR

Was hoping for a mini but can’t wait ordered the 16 inch 64gb 4tb. 16 inch probably has better cooling that was my reasoning.


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## David Kudell

While I’d love an Apple Silicon Mac Pro with like 512GB of RAM, I just built a VEPro rig and love having all my samples loaded. So the ideal would be to have an Apple Silicon system like these MacBook Pros, and then an Intel Xeon based PC or Mac Pro with tons of RAM just running VEPro.


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## mscp

handz said:


> Anyway, Apple, why the hell you cant have one consumer and one Pro chip... :-I



They don't know exactly who is going to buy what. They will probably trim the edges once they figure it all out. By then, they will put up a show to say: "We have made your life easier by giving you less options to purchase from." 

Their new Max 64gb ram laptops do look appealing for mobile work though. It's something. I'll wait for the performance reviews.


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## handz

Cinebient said:


> If I would make a living from music I also would order the 16.2" right now. I would be one of the few missing the TouchBar, especially for music performance related things but the rest looks impressive.
> Good that its just a wet dream for me and my little M1 MacBook does so far everything I need (I have the 16GB RAM version).
> But once I would like to step up my game I think Apple silicon is the way for me. Intel and AMD looks not so great anymore.


I think that for music any of these new macs is bit overkill, only problem here is the ram but I hope developers finally utilize samplers for fast SSDs systems rather than relying on the RAM


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## handz

Everyone is talking about new m1 chips, 64GB of ram... but nobody talks about HDMI connector, can you believe it? There is an HDMI connector on a laptop! What a time to be alive.


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## Michael Antrum

Watched the announcement and this was my immediate reaction.....






The return of MagSafe and those lovely ports is so, so welcome.

I'm wondering if there are going to be issues about the number of cores like we've seen with threadripper.

I'm going to hold on until the first few units get delivered (apple has form) and I'm not sure about 14" vs 16" as I do like my portability.......so I'll want to see them next to each other but this is like every nit has been picked.....


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## Justin L. Franks

64 GB of RAM with the 400 GB/s of memory bandwidth, and the 7,400 MB/s SSD should be quite sufficient for almost all of us.


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## charlieclouser

handz said:


> oh wow, that 8tb - OH WOW! Of course, external drives suck, so its good idea to put there larger you can (if it cant be changed at home) but I really do not get why so many people are into laptops - its always a compromise, and do you really carry 6000 machines around? I think iMAC will be way better machine for less money.


In the last nine years, my current i7 MacBook Pro has only left my house twice - but both times I needed to load up an entire movie's worth of cues in Logic, and not just stems, but the whole MIDI + EXS24 based sessions, with video.

Even this old 2012 i7 with 512 ssd and 8gb RAM did it with no problem. But because the internal SSD is only 512gb, if I didn't want to use external drives I had to export just the portions of my EXS library that were needed by the projects - fortunately, you can save a Logic project with "Include EXS Samples and Instruments" so that was no problem (another reason EXS / Sampler just kills Kontakt...).

But with the 8tb internal drive on the new M1max machine I can have all of my EXS library and all of my raw WAV files, plus my entire score library of mixes, with room to spare. So now if I go somewhere I can just grab-n-go and I can get some real work done if needed. If I need to bring Kontakt stuff I'll get a 32tb 4m2 or something like that, or just put the "best of" selection on the internal drive.

Amazing times we live in.


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## jbuhler

handz said:


> Everyone is talking about new m1 chips, 64GB of ram... but nobody talks about HDMI connector, can you believe it? There is an HDMI connector on a laptop! What a time to be alive.


There is an earlier model macbook pro from 2013 that had hdmi.


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## rnb_2

gsilbers said:


> ah good. its about the same as older macbooks an intel i9 pricing i think. heck, i think i spent more an i9 macbook w 64gb ram.
> 
> it might be that the issue is that next year, itll be m2x with 128gb of ram and i HAVE to get that right ? lol. and so on every year.


Lowest price for 32GB is $2399, but you lose two performance cores and two GPU cores. Still, that's probably going to benchmark somewhere around the 10-core or 14-core iMac Pro, with MUCH better single core performance.


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## Justin L. Franks

jbuhler said:


> There is an earlier model macbook pro from 2013 that had hdmi.


Yup, it also had an SD card slot, which the new Macbooks also have. And MagSafe too.

No FaceID with that giant notch is a letdown though.


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## handz

jbuhler said:


> There is an earlier model macbook pro from 2013 that had hdmi.


That was sarcasm, only apple can pull out such a thing as an exciting feature in 2021. Of course that every budget laptop has HDMI, as it is absolutely necessary thing for usability.


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## NoamL

rnb_2 said:


> The lowest price you can get 64GB is $3299 for the 14", $3499 for 16".


seems like if you absolutely must have 64Gb with an apple machine, the Mac Minis are still more affordable? OWC is quoting a 64gb, 3.6Ghz quad core machine at $819.

heck, you could buy a 3.5Ghz 6 core, 64gb traschan mac for just under $2k.

is there something I'm missing here? Don't those machines have enough performance to run a full 64gb template?


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## BassClef

OK... 8TB internal SSD... adds over 2 grand. How much would an 8TB external NVMe drive setup cost?


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## gsilbers

NoamL said:


> seems like if you absolutely must have 64Gb with an apple machine, the Mac Minis are still more affordable? OWC is quoting a 64gb, 3.6Ghz quad core machine at $819.
> 
> heck, you could buy a 3.5Ghz 6 core, 64gb traschan mac for just under $2k.
> 
> is there something I'm missing here? Don't those machines have enough performance to run a full 64gb template?




Well, for those of is who where around the powerpc transition days know that intel macs days are numbered, no matter what apple says. Monterrey even has features not for intel macs. 

So yes, the mac mini is great but i dont see it lasting more than two years before logic, or AU, or monterrey.5 or someting starts handicapping those mac intels. I mean, there abolutyl no reason for the new logic pro coudnt work on my old mac pro and ommit the 32bit plugins. but nope... you need big sur. and with big sure you need X mac and above and therefore apple plays this zig zag spec where it pisses the right amount of poeple that will complain vs buy new. clever. 

Im actually thinking of a 128gb trashcan w mojave cuz i still have the virus TI. 
so my numbered days are even sorter. 

but yeah, the mac mini is a very good deal. until maybe the new mac mini comes around next month along w a mac cube for a lower price and same chip. since no display is needed then it might be lower priced.


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## gsilbers

BassClef said:


> OK... 8TB internal SSD... adds over 2 grand. How much would an 8TB external NVMe drive setup cost?


one external 8tb ssd is about $1033 and the enclusore like 100-200.


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## Virtuoso

charlieclouser said:


> Amazing times we live in.


I ordered the same spec as yours but wimped out at 2TB of storage. 

Incredible that this _laptop_ will probably be faster than my 2019 Mac Pro, which cost about $20k more! And it has a great (almost 4k) screen with 120Hz refresh and built-in ProRes encode/decode too - I paid $2k just for the Afterburner card!


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## gsilbers

handz said:


> That was sarcasm, only apple can pull out such a thing as an exciting feature in 2021. Of course that every budget laptop has HDMI, as it is absolutely necessary thing for usability.



maybe its the jon ive departure from apple that let other designers say.. hey... hdmi and sd cards are staying for a while and the one usbc port sometimes cannot handle all those adapters. 
and maybe poeple dont like that touch bar thingy.


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## Virtuoso

BassClef said:


> OK... 8TB internal SSD... adds over 2 grand. How much would an 8TB external NVMe drive setup cost?


Bear in mind the Apple one is 7.3GB/s, which puts it in the PCIe 4 Samsung 980 Pro territory, rather than the much cheaper PCIe 3 ones which only do 3.5GB/s. Samsung don't make drives that large, but the Sabrent Rocket 4 Plus is $870 for 4TB.

I'm not sure whether they are using 1x 8TB SSD or 2x 4TB SSDs in a RAID, which is the config on the 2019 Mac Pros.


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## Stephen Limbaugh

Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro updated on the new MacBook Pro with M1 Pro; M1 Max


Final Cut Pro delivers huge advances in 8K video performance; Logic Pro features a complete set of tools for creating music in spatial audio.



www.apple.com





Anyone able to update Logic Pro to 10.7 yet?


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## gsilbers

Virtuoso said:


> I ordered the same spec as yours but wimped out at 2TB of storage.
> 
> Incredible that this _laptop_ will probably be faster than my 2019 Mac Pro, which cost about $20k more! And it has a great (almost 4k) screen with 120Hz refresh and built-in ProRes encode/decode too - I paid $2k just for the Afterburner card!



itll be great if you let us know once you get it. my guess its the multi core performance will be about the same or better but single core much faster.


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## Justin L. Franks

Virtuoso said:


> I ordered the same spec as yours but wimped out at 2TB of storage.
> 
> Incredible that this _laptop_ will probably be faster than my 2019 Mac Pro, which cost about $20k more! And it has a great (almost 4k) screen with 120Hz refresh and built-in ProRes encode/decode too - I paid $2k just for the Afterburner card!


Apple is claiming on the M1 Max you can edit 30 streams of ProRes 4K or 7 streams of ProRes 8K.


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## StefVR

gsilbers said:


> one external 8tb ssd is about $1033 and the enclusore like 100-200.


Surely not even close 7.2 gb/s Transfer speed. This price is for a slow sata.


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## Virtuoso

Justin L. Franks said:


> Apple is claiming on the M1 Max you can edit 30 streams of ProRes 4K or 7 streams of ProRes 8K.


Yes - it sounds very positive, but I note they didn't mention ProRes RAW.


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## mscp

gsilbers said:


> maybe its the jon ive departure from apple that let other designers say.. hey... hdmi and sd cards are staying for a while and the one usbc port sometimes cannot handle all those adapters.
> and maybe poeple dont like that touch bar thingy.


Decrease in profits. "let's do the bare minimum to maximize profits and put a smile in the investor's face..."

sales drop.

Investors: "Wait, what have just happened?"

Company: "I know just the thing to do...revive the old classics we deliberately took away to bring back the jolly and well, mo' profits! We'll just work on some snazzy presentation, and it'll all sort itself out...you'll see."

Investors: "ooooh."

lol.

The tale of the big, public company that once had a real visionary (and his team) who actually did something.


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## Alex Fraser

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro updated on the new MacBook Pro with M1 Pro; M1 Max
> 
> 
> Final Cut Pro delivers huge advances in 8K video performance; Logic Pro features a complete set of tools for creating music in spatial audio.
> 
> 
> 
> www.apple.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone able to update Logic Pro to 10.7 yet?


Update hasn’t appeared for me yet.


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## NoamL

gsilbers said:


> Well, for those of is who where around the powerpc transition days know that intel macs days are numbered, no matter what apple says. Monterrey even has features not for intel macs.
> 
> So yes, the mac mini is great but i dont see it lasting more than two years before logic, or AU, or monterrey.5 or someting starts handicapping those mac intels. I mean, there abolutyl no reason for the new logic pro coudnt work on my old mac pro and ommit the 32bit plugins. but nope... you need big sur. and with big sure you need X mac and above and therefore apple plays this zig zag spec where it pisses the right amount of poeple that will complain vs buy new. clever.
> 
> Im actually thinking of a 128gb trashcan w mojave cuz i still have the virus TI.
> so my numbered days are even sorter.
> 
> but yeah, the mac mini is a very good deal. until maybe the new mac mini comes around next month along w a mac cube for a lower price and same chip. since no display is needed then it might be lower priced.


good points. Maybe I'll wait for an iMac or Mac Mini with the new tech.


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## MarcusD

No Mac mini Max? 😩 Damn... Those new Mac Pros sure look 💪 buff.


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## khollister

Virtuoso said:


> I ordered the same spec as yours but wimped out at 2TB of storage.
> 
> Incredible that this _laptop_ will probably be faster than my 2019 Mac Pro, which cost about $20k more! And it has a great (almost 4k) screen with 120Hz refresh and built-in ProRes encode/decode too - I paid $2k just for the Afterburner card!


And I caught a passing comment in the presentation that the M1Max rendered ProRes _faster than a 28 core MP with the Afterburner card_!

I expect these will bench somewhere north of 11,000 on the multi-core Geekbench, which will put them just behind or on par with the 12 core 7.1 MP with the 18 core iMP and 16, 24 & 28 core MP's out in front by a good margin. And of course the single core speed is way faster than any current Mac - probably in the ballpark of an i9-11900K. I almost ordered one to play with but decided it wasn't enough faster than my 10 core iMP and then I have to buy a monitor. My M1 13" MBP is really perfect for how I use a laptop (composing is a casual thing there) - much cheaper, less weight, less power, etc. and plenty of HP for my use case.

The GFX capabilities of these things is scary - now I understand the "scaled down Mac Pro" rumors. They aren't going to need the MPX modules (and the PCIe slots/power they use) for discrete graphics/afterburner cards.

Personally looking forward to spending a shit load of cash on a big iMac or Mac Pro next year to replace the iMP


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## gsilbers

StefVR said:


> Surely not even close 7.2 gb/s Transfer speed. This price is for a slow sata.



Im new to these upgrades but im talking about this one



so much faster than sata ssd but not 7gbs? 

still good, right? for external audio/sample drive in the music world of course.


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## gsilbers

NoamL said:


> good points. Maybe I'll wait for an iMac or Mac Mini with the new tech.



Although the used market keeps strong with older macs. slowly they are coming down but no where near other used market stuff.


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## davidson

The single core speed on the pro and max is the same as the standard m1, yes?


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## Alex Fraser

NoamL said:


> good points. Maybe I'll wait for an iMac or Mac Mini with the new tech.


At this point, I think half the forum is waiting for the first “serious” AS minis to arrive.


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## StefVR

gsilbers said:


> Im new to these upgrades but im talking about this one
> 
> 
> 
> so much faster than sata ssd but not 7gbs?
> 
> still good, right? for external audio/sample drive in the music world of course.



Agree actually better than I expected for the price. Still not comparable with the one built but not bad at all for the price.


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## handz

gsilbers said:


> one external 8tb ssd is about $1033 and the enclusore like 100-200.


Which makes the apples offer not so bad surprisingly, as their RAM usually was 5x more expensive


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## mscp

Virtuoso said:


> Incredible that this _laptop_ will probably be faster than my 2019 Mac Pro


Bold statement. Do a comparison review once you receive it. I have a Mac Pro 2019 here waiting to find a new home if that's the case.


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## Michael Antrum

gsilbers said:


> Although the used market keeps strong with older macs. slowly they are coming down but no where near other used market stuff.


There's a guy on a UK based forum that moves a lot of kit, and he's having real trouble selling a fully loaded MacBook Pro 16" intel 64gb/4Tb less than a year old for £2K !


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## apollinaire

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro updated on the new MacBook Pro with M1 Pro; M1 Max
> 
> 
> Final Cut Pro delivers huge advances in 8K video performance; Logic Pro features a complete set of tools for creating music in spatial audio.
> 
> 
> 
> www.apple.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone able to update Logic Pro to 10.7 yet?


Sure...I'd love to! Except, I'm on Catalina...lol


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## danwool

BassClef said:


> Me too... but might go for a loaded MacBook Pro and a docking station!


My first thought too. I have an immediate need (not just _want_) for more than my 2009 cMP (5,1 12-core). I'll wait a bit to see if the rumor sites float a new timeline for M1Pro/Max MacMinis, but if it's not soonish, a M1Max MBP on a docking station might be the way to go. I'd pay a price for unneeded functionality, but it would certainly trounce my cMP (right?)


----------



## khollister

davidson said:


> The single core speed on the pro and max is the same as the standard m1, yes?


I presume so based on the claim that the M1Pro/MAX is "up to 70%" faster than M1. It's possible they might clock them down a bit under load for power management reasons, but it's doubtful given the 2 large low speed fans in there.

I think when the base number rolls (M2) we will see either IPC improvements due to new cores or at least faster clocks.


----------



## sourcefor

Does it come with Big Sur or Monterey? If it's the latter I will wait until I update my whole system to Monterey which will be next year..I just updated to Big Sur! But these machines look great!


----------



## rnb_2

sourcefor said:


> Does it come with Big Sur or Monterey? If it's the latter I will wait until I update my whole system to Monterey which will be next year..I just updated to Big Sur! But these machines look great!


These will come with Monterey - final release is on Monday, and it will come pre-installed on anything released after that.


----------



## Utkarsh

tsk said:


> Also, I would have liked details on the new headphone jack supporting high impedance headphones. What does this actually mean?


+1


----------



## KEM

Wish they would’ve announced a new Mac Mini, this technology is so promising but the MacBook’s are so expensive and I don’t want to buy another one, the Mini will really be the perfect machine


----------



## Tronam

KEM said:


> Wish they would’ve announced a new Mac Mini, this technology is so promising but the MacBook’s are so expensive and I don’t want to buy another one, the Mini will really be the perfect machine


Agreed, but considering the current situation with manufacturing and supply constraints, I don't know how many new computers they could announce at once and still have enough chips and components to go around. Many of today's pre-orders are already spilling into December and even the 5 month old 24" iMac is still 3-4 weeks backordered. Since there's already an M1 Mac mini, I suspect they'll wait until whenever the 27" iMac is updated to release a new one. Maybe next spring or summer at WWDC.


----------



## KEM

Tronam said:


> Agreed, but considering the current situation with manufacturing and supply constraints, I don't know how many new computers they could announce at once and still have enough chips and components to go around. Many of today's pre-orders are already spilling into December and even the 5 month old 24" iMac is still 3-4 weeks backordered. Since there's already an M1 Mac mini, I suspect they'll wait until whenever the 27" iMac is updated to release a new one. Maybe next spring or summer at WWDC.



Yeah I’m expecting an update early to mid next year, I can understand not wanting to completely redo their entire lineup, that’s not something Apple ever does, but man that was definitely a letdown


----------



## Michael Antrum

Logic Pro 10.7 update just dropped ....


----------



## BassClef

danwool said:


> My first thought too. I have an immediate need (not just _want_) for more than my 2009 cMP (5,1 12-core). I'll wait a bit to see if the rumor sites float a new timeline for M1Pro/Max MacMinis, but if it's not soonish, a M1Max MBP on a docking station might be the way to go. I'd pay a price for unneeded functionality, but it would certainly trounce my cMP (right?)


And... instead of waiting on a new "Maybe Mini" the MacBookPro would give me an additional screen for my workflow!


----------



## charlieclouser

Michael Antrum said:


> Logic Pro 10.7 update just dropped ....


• The count-in now uses the time signature of the bar where recording will start in cases where there is a time signature change at that bar.

• The Track Inspector now offers separate MIDI input and output port settings.

NICE.


----------



## marius_dm

Let's just hope the M1max doesn't spin the fans any more than the M1 does. Power is nice. Typing on a hot, noisy hair dryer is not.


----------



## Sheridan

charlieclouser said:


> • The count-in now uses the time signature of the bar where recording will start in cases where there is a time signature change at that bar.
> 
> • The Track Inspector now offers separate MIDI input and output port settings.
> 
> NICE.


And these two now put Logic on par with Cubase’s Drum Editor:


It is now possible to convert MIDI regions to Step Sequencer Pattern regions.
Row labels in Step Sequencer can now be custom named.


----------



## Anders Wall

thesteelydane said:


> It’s a lot of money, and I want to see some real world tests of large templates first, but if it’s as good as I think, it will probably last you at least 4 years, and then it’s less than $1000/year for that much portable power. At least that’s how my mind has already begun justifying it…


The other week I did a recording with my* 2013* MacBookPro.
32 Channels of audio, realtime effects (well there were some reverbs in the returns) 64samples buffer.
Not a singel hick-up.

Just saying...

/Anders


----------



## David Kudell

Damn impressive geek bench score. Faster than the 12 core Mac Pro! And that doesn’t take into account the advantages of the faster memory and the 64GB unified GPU memory.









First Geekbench Score Surfaces for MacBook Pro M1 Max With 2x Faster Multi-Core Performance Compared to M1


Just after Apple's event introducing the new MacBook Pro models with M1 Pro and M1 Max chips, the first benchmark for the high-end M1 Max chip...




www.macrumors.com


----------



## Anders Wall

charlieclouser said:


> Ordered the most bricked-out one they have. 16" M1max, 64gb, 8tb. Says delivery is Nov 5-10.
> 
> Big bucks, yes, but this will be only the third laptop I've bought in 20 years. Core2duo 17", then my current 2012 matte-screen pre-retina i7, and finally M1max! 9 years of use on this one and still going strong, so I figure I'm getting my money's worth out of these machines.
> 
> And with an 8tb internal drive I can actually do meaningful music work on it with no external drives, and that will let me really evaluate Apple Silicon, Rosetta, Monterey, etc., and let me make a more educated decision about whether to splash for the final round of Intel Mac Pro or wait another year for an Apple Silicon pro machine.
> 
> Not sorry to say goodbye to Intel laptops - yes, my current one is old but it is an i7 and even some webpages make the fans kick on. We'll see if M1max changes this....


As soon as Avid gets video into ProTools on the M1 I'm selling my last kidney to get a similar setup as yours. I've got a M1 Air and its one of the best investments I've made. Paid itself within weeks (used money for that one, no bodyparts...).
I'm counting on that the above laptop will replace two of my current computers freeing up one system for Dolby Atmos renderer.
Well, that's the plan anyway 
/Anders


----------



## hoxclab

Well I'm disappointed there is no Mac Mini but my wallet isn't!!!


----------



## handz

Virtuoso said:


> I ordered the same spec as yours but wimped out at 2TB of storage.
> 
> Incredible that this _laptop_ will probably be faster than my 2019 Mac Pro, which cost about $20k more! And it has a great (almost 4k) screen with 120Hz refresh and built-in ProRes encode/decode too - I paid $2k just for the Afterburner card!


I was just thinking about all you poor souls who spent insane money on. Mac pro. Ooof.


----------



## handz

mscp said:


> Bold statement. Do a comparison review once you receive it. I have a Mac Pro 2019 here waiting to find a new home if that's the case.


I have no doubt it will be faster even than the 50k mac pro. Mac pro is never a good idea unless you really need it for some reason (and for music you definitely dont)


----------



## mscp

handz said:


> I have no doubt it will be faster even than the 50k mac pro.


I highly doubt it. They're not dumb. If they drop something that will trash their super expensive computer (especially 2 years down the line), ...you get the rest. They're businessmen (without Steve Jobs). My 'bet' is that it will better than the 8-core one (cheapest). It's all about dollars and cents, and controlling market share...

They've already bought E-Magic's Logic to hook some people up...and effectively they did. Some people refuse to go to Cubase or any other app because they're so used to Logic, that's not feasible to switch. Clever move.

Now they're doing it to their cpus...they need more time to do it perfectly. They can't atrociously release something that will smoke their top of the line computer just because they can...They will wait at least 5 years to plan that out. (Planned obsolesce 101).

They're smart. I hope Intel/AMD step up to keep the beauty of 'pushing things forward' alive. We all marginally benefit from it anyway.



handz said:


> Mac pro is never a good idea unless you really need it for some reason (and for music you definitely dont)


Based on that logic alone, any modern PC/Mac is already overkill for most composers with a large-size template, for as long as their machines have enough ram.


----------



## handz

khollister said:


> And I caught a passing comment in the presentation that the M1Max rendered ProRes _faster than a 28 core MP with the Afterburner card_!
> 
> I expect these will bench somewhere north of 11,000 on the multi-core Geekbench, which will put them just behind or on par with the 12 core 7.1 MP with the 18 core iMP and 16, 24 & 28 core MP's out in front by a good margin. And of course the single core speed is way faster than any current Mac - probably in the ballpark of an i9-11900K. I almost ordered one to play with but decided it wasn't enough faster than my 10 core iMP and then I have to buy a monitor. My M1 13" MBP is really perfect for how I use a laptop (composing is a casual thing there) - much cheaper, less weight, less power, etc. and plenty of HP for my use case.
> 
> The GFX capabilities of these things is scary - now I understand the "scaled down Mac Pro" rumors. They aren't going to need the MPX modules (and the PCIe slots/power they use) for discrete graphics/afterburner cards.
> 
> Personally looking forward to spending a shit load of cash on a big iMac or Mac Pro next year to replace the iMP


iMacs with M1Max will be best thing apple ever made. Mac pro will be again overkill which 99% users never will need and then new imac totally smash it.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

just bought top of the range macbook, so expensive


----------



## Gingerbread

Looking ahead, I wonder if the M1 pro or max chips will make it into the new iPads next year?


----------



## handz

mscp said:


> I highly doubt it. They're smarter than that. If they drop something that will trash their super expensive computer (especially 2 years down the line), ...you get the rest. My 'bet' is that it will better than the 8-core one (cheapest) in practice.


Let’s see. They are definitely not so smart to not release imac that is half the price than imac pro and way faster. Then they release m1 laptops faster than practically everything they have except the 10x more expensive machine. For super low price. If they don’t care about something it is about their consumers who bought something expensive 1-2 years ago. The previous mac pro generation was in offer years after it was practically useless.


----------



## StefVR

mscp said:


> I highly doubt it. They're not dumb. If they drop something that will trash their super expensive computer (especially 2 years down the line), ...you get the rest. They're businessmen (without Steve Jobs). My 'bet' is that it will better than the 8-core one (cheapest). It's all about dollars and cents, and controlling market share...
> 
> They've already bought E-Magic's Logic to hook some people up...and effectively they did. Some people refuse to go to Cubase or any other app because they're so used to Logic, that's not feasible to switch. Clever move.
> 
> Now they're doing it to their cpus...they need more time to do it perfectly. They can't atrociously release something that will smoke their top of the line computer just because they can...They will wait at least 5 years to plan that out. (Planned obsolesce 101).
> 
> They're smart. I hope Intel/AMD step up to keep the beauty of 'pushing things forward' alive. We all marginally benefit from it anyway.
> 
> 
> Based on that logic alone, any modern PC/Mac is already overkill for most composers with a large-size template, for as long as their machines have enough ram.


I differ from this opinion. The 50k Mac is very niche it’s a fraction of what Apple makes with laptops. If they can grab huge market share from Intel they will do at any cost.


----------



## gsilbers

charlieclouser said:


> • The count-in now uses the time signature of the bar where recording will start in cases where there is a time signature change at that bar.
> 
> • The Track Inspector now offers separate MIDI input and output port settings.
> 
> NICE.


Anything better on the surround side workflow you liked or still the same?
(Except it’s atmos)


----------



## Justin L. Franks

Gingerbread said:


> Looking ahead, I wonder if the M1 pro or max chips will make it into the new iPads next year?


Not going to happen in that form factor. It will get the M2 whenever that comes out. The battery in the iPad is too small for any meaningful battery life on the Pro/Max.


----------



## rnb_2

Justin L. Franks said:


> Not going to happen in that form factor. It will get the M2 whenever that comes out. The battery in the iPad is too small for any meaningful battery life on the Pro/Max.


Not to mention the cooling and packaging needs - they're both really big packages.


----------



## Virtuoso

handz said:


> I was just thinking about all you poor souls who spent insane money on. Mac pro. Ooof.


I can't deny it hurts a little! I skipped the trash can and went all-in on the 2019 Mac Pro thinking it would probably last 6 years or so, but if the laptops are anything to go by, the 2022/3 Mac Pro will be in a different league! 

Then again, I've had two very solid years out of it and you can't get a laptop with 384GB of RAM and 48TB of onboard storage!


----------



## charlieclouser

gsilbers said:


> Anything better on the surround side workflow you liked or still the same?
> (Except it’s atmos)


It doesn't look like they've changed anything that I complain about, which is purely related to outputting multiple stems in surround. My complaints are really only an issue for people using a separate rig as a stem layback recorder, so i'm not surprised that Apple isn't rushing to solve that one, preferring to have Logic be an end-to-end solution. 

I tried bussing my stems to empty record tracks in the same Logic project, but that is a super-clunky way to work for me. So much smoother to just output to 64 channels of MADI and capture it externally. Then I get a whole-project overview in ProTools and can see how overlapping cues will sound, and I have plenty of tracks to store rough mixes, alts, etc. I'll still keep working that way if I can.

But on my latest project, which will be mixed in Atmos, the dubbing mixers said, "Screw the surround stuff on your end, it's easier for us if you just give us a bunch of stereo stems." Which is way easier for me too, so..... 7x stereo stems + stereo mix it is.

But I won't know for sure until I see v10.7 installed on my new M1max laptop when it comes next month.


----------



## river angler

gsilbers said:


> Well, im sold. Finally 64gb of ram.
> 
> But...
> 
> 
> $3499 for 64gb ram and 10 core. 1tb ssd.
> 
> If it can beat a mac pro/equivalent intel/amd for that price and its that small i guess its totally worth it.


Absolutely absurdly overpriced these new MacBooks! I'm still doing pro work on the same mid 2012 I bought new thats still way more versatile than any MBP Apple have released since ! Perfectly fast enough and visually sound. Who really needs all that swanky spec?... OK yes! I agree on the extra RAM even though I never have a problem getting round the rare occasion when "computer too slow" warning signs appear on mine! But from a musicians/composers perspective what else does one really pay out for here?...!


----------



## gsilbers

StefVR said:


> I differ from this opinion. The 50k Mac is very niche it’s a fraction of what Apple makes with laptops. If they can grab huge market share from Intel they will do at any cost.


I see it more of an investment Apple is making into Hollywood’s back end.
Many studios use these very high end PCs from video editing, animation, file distribution, qc, file post workflows etc.

Disney and Netflix use pro res files as their main file and distribution files to broadcasters around the world.
And they require to be done on macs or pay a license.

So Apple doesnt seem want to compete with i7 of gamers and skips to higher end Hollywood so you’ll see micheal bay w a mac pro editing transformers 8 or whatever and more people want to buy macs in general.
They probably demand every tv show to be edited on macs or have apple product showing in every so often etc.
Plus all the file based systems that use custom software so they get developers license fees as well.

Basically creating tons of synergy for their other products.
So sure, they don’t make as much profit as iPhones of course, but Hollywood back end sure helps cement distribution channels, marketing, info on opportunities and data on customers etc

Still, in the stock info it shows iPhones make more than doble the All profits so either Mac Pro or MacBook. It doesn’t compare to iPhones sales.

Now… as long as they don’t retire Mojave too


----------



## Technostica

marius_dm said:


> Let's just hope the M1max doesn't spin the fans any more than the M1 does. Power is nice. Typing on a hot, noisy hair dryer is not.


It is a much bigger chip fabricated on the same process node, so when you push it hard it will consume much more power than the M1. 
Noise will also depend on the cooling system, but it will likely be noisier, but how noisy is a guess. 

The good news is that for DAW usage, it isn't going to stress the GPU heavily, so the real world wattage shouldn't be too bad. 
For video work it may well get noisier.


----------



## artomatic

Got the MacBook Pro 16-inch /1TB /32 unified memory. 
Glad I waited a year... But won't be glad when another powerful iteration is released some time in the near future!


----------



## handz

river angler said:


> Absolutely absurdly overpriced these new MacBooks! I'm still doing pro work on the same mid 2012 I bought new thats still way more versatile than any MBP Apple have released since !


Mmm. Nope. This is practically workstation in a laptop. Price is very good for an apple product. I really don’t know what you are doing on 2012 mac as my 2015 pro is definitely not what I would like to use for any serious work now. Even youtube in chrome makes it go lava hot


----------



## seclusion3

Im in for a Mini Max, 2TB, 64 Ram, same I/O with a 43" screen


----------



## river angler

handz said:


> Mmm. Nope. This is practically workstation in a laptop. Price is very good for an apple product. I really don’t know what you are doing on 2012 mac as my 2015 pro is definitely not what I would like to use for any serious work now. Even youtube in chrome makes it go lava hot


Well... what can I say!?... it works for me doing up to 70/80 live instrument track mockups no problem. I use Logic freeze/render if needs be. The main reason I've stuck with it is because it simply works within my studio setup and remains compatible up to Catalina which I haven't needed to upgrade to- happy on Logic 10.48 for example. I have all the software I need which runs without any hiccups whatsoever- full Chris Hein orchestra/OT Inspire Series/Waves/CineSamples etc - its always been a case of "if it aint broke why fix it?!" I also love the fact that it houses two internal SSDs that hold the OS and all my libraries respectively. Hence I only have to hang my scratch drive off one of the USB3 ports. I even run a video feed to other rooms off the thunderbolt port and remote second keyboard off the spare USB!...It's an i7 chip set which is ample fast enough for all tasks like offline bouncing uploading downloading etc.. I just don't need anything else!


----------



## Soundhound

charlieclouser said:


> Ordered the most bricked-out one they have. 16" M1max, 64gb, 8tb. Says delivery is Nov 5-10.
> 
> Big bucks, yes, but this will be only the third laptop I've bought in 20 years. Core2duo 17", then my current 2012 matte-screen pre-retina i7, and finally M1max! 9 years of use on this one and still going strong, so I figure I'm getting my money's worth out of these machines.
> 
> And with an 8tb internal drive I can actually do meaningful music work on it with no external drives, and that will let me really evaluate Apple Silicon, Rosetta, Monterey, etc., and let me make a more educated decision about whether to splash for the final round of Intel Mac Pro or wait another year for an Apple Silicon pro machine.
> 
> Not sorry to say goodbye to Intel laptops - yes, my current one is old but it is an i7 and even some webpages make the fans kick on. We'll see if M1max changes this....


----------



## Soundhound

Charlie will this be your main machine, or second banana to your desktop?


----------



## Technostica

The Max version is very large for a laptop chip and contains more transistors than Nvidia's biggest data centre GPU chip, which you'll find in cards costing 10k+.
So the next big performance boost for laptops, will very likely be when they move from a 5nm to 3nm process node.
Before then, the size and power limits will curtail performance growth.

TSMC have seemingly just announced a delay before the 3nm node hits production, so it seems as if 2023 will be the earliest before products ship.
That may have a knock on effect of delaying the release of the Mac Pro replacement.
As judging by the size of what is still only an 8 high performance core SoC, a version with enough cores for a workstation, may need the 3nm node to keep size and power in check.


----------



## colony nofi

Technostica said:


> The Max version is very large for a laptop chip and contains more transistors than Nvidia's biggest data centre GPU chip, which you'll find in cards costing 10k+.
> So the next big performance boost for laptops, will very likely be when they move from a 5nm to 3nm process node.
> Before then, the size and power limits will curtail performance growth.
> 
> TSMC have seemingly just announced a delay before the 3nm node hits production, so it seems as if 2023 will be the earliest before products ship.
> That may have a knock on effect of delaying the release of the Mac Pro replacement.
> As judging by the size of what is still only an 8 high performance core SoC, a version with enough cores for a workstation, may need the 3nm node to keep size and power in check.


apple mac pro with "m" chip has not been delayed. The chips / machines are already in test / its not waiting on new process nodes being "not ready". Apple are controlling things for the "m" series chips more than we have ever seen before, and it works well for *them*


----------



## colony nofi

Justin L. Franks said:


> Not going to happen in that form factor. It will get the M2 whenever that comes out. The battery in the iPad is too small for any meaningful battery life on the Pro/Max.


This. There is also market segmentation in play.
M1 (or M2, M3) etc are the bottom end chips.
M1 Pro are second tier
M1 Max are third tier
And then there are the new chips for the mac pros. 
I've also heard two very different approaches for new larger imac - but nothing that hasn't been shouted about on the myriad rumour sites.


----------



## colony nofi

Tronam said:


> Agreed, but considering the current situation with manufacturing and supply constraints, I don't know how many new computers they could announce at once and still have enough chips and components to go around. Many of today's pre-orders are already spilling into December and even the 5 month old 24" iMac is still 3-4 weeks backordered. Since there's already an M1 Mac mini, I suspect they'll wait until whenever the 27" iMac is updated to release a new one. Maybe next spring or summer at WWDC.



As much as the rumor sites were pushing the idea of a hotted up m1X mini, this wasn't expected by any industry folk I've spoken to. 
There are enough pieces of evidence (as opposed to rumour sites) that imply that there is a machine coming that sits between the current mini and a new m based desktop pro. It may be a new mini like format, or still another format (say more a old cube size or similar). It seems it is highly unlikely that there will be both a hot mini AND a mid tier pro (with potential internal expandibility) AND a new pro. 

The new mac pro based on m series chips is likely to be in a different form factor to the intel mac pro.

And there is VERY likely another intel pro still coming in the same chassis we have now.


----------



## Technostica

colony nofi said:


> apple mac pro with "m" chip has not been delayed. The chips / machines are already in test / its not waiting on new process nodes being "not ready". Apple are controlling things for the "m" series chips more than we have ever seen before, and it works well for *them*


Are you referring to the full fat version or the alleged cut down one? 
It makes sense that they would not wait for 3nm with the first iteration. 
New nodes can easily be delayed which is not so important for a second generation product. 
Worth considering waiting for the 2nd generation, although historically that's probably too long for most, unless the Pro starts getting more love.


----------



## colony nofi

Technostica said:


> Are you referring to the full fat version or the alleged cut down one?
> It makes sense that they would not wait for 3nm with the first iteration.
> New nodes can easily be delayed which is not so important for a second generation product.
> Worth considering waiting for the 2nd generation, although historically that's probably too long for most, unless the Pro starts getting more love.


Full fat version. 
And second gen M is not guaranteed on 3nm node either. There's been test fabs of another m1 "like" chip done on 5nm. But that really isn't evidence for much given the huge number of tests that apple do!


----------



## Vik

gsilbers said:


> Im new to these upgrades but im talking about this one


Half the speed then.



handz said:


> They are definitely not so smart to not release imac that is half the price than imac pro and way faster.


Half the price of the Mac Pro, you mean? The current Mac Pro could be discontinued in a year from now, but we don't know what Apple will do. They've had a policy for some time where they deliberately don't produce the Macs they know lots of people want (in order to sell Mac Pros and high end iMacs) – like a Mac between the iMac Mini and Mac Pro (a mini tower) or a Mini with the same specs as the fastest iMacs iMac Pros, and unfortunately they'll probably continue not making Minis with top specced iMac specs or iMacs with Mac Pro specs. They also stopped producing the Mac Pros. 

They could have released a mini with M 1 Pro / M1 Max now, if they wanted but that would cause a lot of us getting what we want for a lower price. OTOH, they know that we know what they can do and probably will do at some point, and they can't keep the 2019 Mac Pro production running forever anyway. And there has been a rumour about a AS based mini tower for quite a while.

Plus, the high end Mac Pros are already outperformed by last years M1 Macs, aren't they (single core performance)? 


David Kudell said:


> Damn impressive geek bench score. Faster than the 12 core Mac Pro! And that doesn’t take into account the advantages of the faster memory and the 64GB unified GPU memory.


Yeah, Geekbench scores improve with larger drives and more RAM, so these numbers will probably look better on Macs with more RAM/storage.

Since newest Macs seem to have Geekbench performance similar to the $7000 Mac Pro for less than half the price, it probably won't take more than a year before new Macs outperforms the best Intel Mac Pros.


----------



## charlieclouser

Soundhound said:


> Charlie will this be your main machine, or second banana to your desktop?


Oh this will be just for browsing Reddit and posting on vi-control! (j/k)

Seriously though, I don't really do any serious music work on a laptop - but that's mainly because my current 2012 i7 doesn't have enough internal storage to have all my libraries at hand, I don't want to bring a sack full of T2 SSDs and hubs, plus I hate using a trackpad for Logic. But with the new M1max machine I can at least have a reasonable facsimile of my studio setup in portable form, and if I do happen to take an extended holiday I won't be carefully toting a ten-year-old machine around the globe, afraid that it will die at any moment. I can just plug headphones into the new machine and have my full EXS / Sampler and WAV loops libraries on-board, along with all of mixes and the full Logic projects for all of the SAW movies, so if I want to do serious work in the middle of nowhere, I can just buy a 4k tv for a few hundred bucks and leave it behind at the AirBnb when I go home.

My 2012 machine is still going strong, never had an issue, but I have beaten on it for hours a day for nine years, and I kind of wonder if and when the battery or SSD will go bad. I'll keep the old girl around just to run my old (non-subscription) version of SketchUp and other seldom-used legacy apps, but the new M1max will be my only non-desktop computer.

It's been so long since I bought a new laptop but I'm glad I waited.

Once I get the new machine and see what the workflow is like with Logic v10.7, spatial audio, Monterey, Apple Silicon, etc. I will re-evaluate whether or not I want to do a last-minute panic-buy of a 2019 Intel Mac Pro 28-core (just to keep ReWire working for a few more years) or whether I'll just cruise along with my 2013 Mac Pro cylinder until Apple Silicon Mac Pros come out. 

I kind of doubt that ReWire with Logic and Ableton Live can be made to work on Apple Silicon, but if anyone has made that work, chime in?


----------



## jbuhler

river angler said:


> Well... what can I say!?... it works for me doing up to 70/80 live instrument track mockups no problem. I use Logic freeze/render if needs be. The main reason I've stuck with it is because it simply works within my studio setup and remains compatible up to Catalina which I haven't needed to upgrade to- happy on Logic 10.48 for example. I have all the software I need which runs without any hiccups whatsoever- full Chris Hein orchestra/OT Inspire Series/Waves/CineSamples etc - its always been a case of "if it aint broke why fix it?!" I also love the fact that it houses two internal SSDs that hold the OS and all my libraries respectively. Hence I only have to hang my scratch drive off one of the USB3 ports. I even run a video feed to other rooms off the thunderbolt port and remote second keyboard off the spare USB!...It's an i7 chip set which is ample fast enough for all tasks like offline bouncing uploading downloading etc.. I just don't need anything else!


Those 2012 i7 MacBook Pros are really good. I have one myself still in daily service and aside from memory it holds up well compared to my top end consumer i7 quad iMac from 2015. But it’s blown away by my 2020 iMac i9. And 16GB is a severe limitation for many music production set ups.


----------



## colony nofi

Hm.
Just looking at costs of these machines.
The fully spec'd out version is around $8.5k AUD with business discount / 9.1k without.

Its a really interesting proposition.

Since 2013 I've been travelling with a trashcan. And a huge amount of peripherals. 

There's no reason to think this machine wont soundly beat that machine - in all ways except the 128GB of ram. How often do I use it? I don't know. I *did* run out of ram using 64GB back in 2015, which is why I got the larger kit from OWC.

8TB internal (bloody fast) SSD - nice. I now run a single 8TB external drive for samples, with about 6.5TB used. I recently culled a tonne of libraries - and they just live on some SSD's in a blackmagic box that I only connect in the studio. But this could potentially be big enough to load up with "current projects" (leaving all my other projects on the work server to be sync'd as needed) as well as 98% of all my sample needs.

CPU. Will be interesting to see what its actually like for Nuendo + Spat Revolution. Nothing in it seems to indicate it won't be a beast.

Graphics. Well, for now I'll still need a thunderbolt to HDMI blackmagic unit in order to use the full screen video out of nuendo. Actually - i don't *know* this... I've not tried to use internal displays for video since nuendo got a new video engine. Maybe it doesn't show a menu bar anymore? 

GPU - not needed for me. Its going to lie dormant, reminding me every now and then of how much I paid for something I don't use.

Audio out. Maybe the internal audio is good enough to use on the road with headphones, and if I want to connect to the monitors I can keep my babyface in the luggage. 75% of places I'm going to these days have dante networks I can jump into anyway - which kinda means I might not need to travel with the babyface.

Keyboard? Well I usually travel with an M32, and am lucky to have full size keyboards in NY and London to use. They're all usb A though - boo. There'll still be that mess. One wonders if the newest version of bluetooth has good enough timing to run keyboards / midi without it feeling like crap - and hopefully enable eliminating that wire. Will mean more battery powered stuff though...

I'll keep using a caldigit TS3 in the studio... maybe just maybe I can hide the laptop in clamshell mode in the studio and use it as a main machine. I mean - other than RAM, will I see *ANY* occasion where it won't do what I need? I cant wait to get one to test.


----------



## Tronam

They specifically mentioned the 3.5mm jack supporting high impedance headphones. The current M1 MacBook Pro actually drives my DT-990s without any difficulty at all, so I'll be curious to hear how they've improved the output. With my M32 I just use a USB-B to USB-C cable with it, so no adapters required.


----------



## colony nofi

Tronam said:


> They specifically mentioned the 3.5mm jack supporting high impedance headphones. The current M1 MacBook Pro actually drives my DT-990s without any difficulty at all, so I'll be curious to hear how they've improved the output. With my M32 I just use a USB-B to USB-C cable with it, so no adapters required.


Oh yeah - I have no issue with using a usb b to c cable - I'd just like MANY fewer cables.
I grossly oversimplified my setup. I have about 10kg of cables and connections that travel with my portable rig. Anything to bring this down is a bonus!
And I have not tested performance of the inbuilt audio in years. My current 2018 MBP had something inside the jack which is stopping headphones being connected - which I discovered the day after buying it but by that time I was half way across the globe, and there just hasn't been time to fix it (short of confirming I couldn't get whatever it was out with a pretty solid magnet!). Ha. One of these days.

(This 2018 has been the worst mbp I've ever owned... screen has orange/purple haze all round the edges that changes everday, it gets extremely hot, loud, keyboard is getting flaky... the old 2011 and 2015's I had were TONNES better made. I'm hoping they've turned a corner with the new ones...)

Oh yes - and I saw the good news around high impedance cans. I use Oppo (pretty easy to drive) and Audeze LCD X (much harder). So I'll be keen to try that out sometime too!


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Just thinking...8TB hard drive. Are we now in a space where it's fine to run (say) 5-6 TB of samples direct from the _internal_ drive on this M1 beast? Or is that still as bad an idea as its ever been?

If so, the packing list for a truly portable orchestra is getting nicely compact:

• Macbook Pro
• Headphones
• Audio interface

And a keyboard (optional). No need for external drives. 

Are we there yet?


----------



## colony nofi

PhilipJohnston said:


> Just thinking...8TB hard drive. Are we now in a space where it's fine to run (say) 5-6 TB of samples direct from the _internal_ drive on this M1 beast? Or is that still as bad an idea as its ever been?
> 
> If so, the packing list for a truly portable orchestra is getting nicely compact:
> 
> • Macbook Pro
> • Headphones
> • Audio interface
> 
> And a keyboard (optional). No need for external drives.
> 
> Are we there yet?


Its been totally cool to run samples from the internal SSD for ages! I have 4TB on my 2018 and use 3TB for samples at various times. It runs better than ANY external drive.

There's no reason on today's NVME drives to worry about OS and Samples being on the same drive. 

(Your sampler wont go anywhere NEAR saturating the I/O buss for the drive. Truth be told, it wont on a bog standard SATA3 SSD either, but thats another story. cough cough legacy code in kontakt cough cough


----------



## colony nofi

PhilipJohnston said:


> Just thinking...8TB hard drive. Are we now in a space where it's fine to run (say) 5-6 TB of samples direct from the _internal_ drive on this M1 beast? Or is that still as bad an idea as its ever been?
> 
> If so, the packing list for a truly portable orchestra is getting nicely compact:
> 
> • Macbook Pro
> • Headphones
> • Audio interface
> 
> And a keyboard (optional). No need for external drives.
> 
> Are we there yet?


I know two pretty well known composers who just plug headphones staight into their mac book pro's now. And spitfire's CH I think talks about not using his babyface anymore on the road / just using internal sound card (even using airpods!) but that could just be my bad memory.

I'm running a babyface in the field (or just dante virtual soundcard!).

I'm REALLY keen to look at using the internal sound card too as another great option.

For me, it will be MBP, elicenser (soon to be replaced - HORRAY!), M32, Headphones. I also have a cool 3D printed case for a 8TB rocket SSD that runs over TB3 (its just PCI3 speeds) that can hang off the back of my monitor for times I need more space, but I'd REALLY love to figure out if I can run within 8TB internally. For me, its just a matter of total space, not if the internal drive is up to the challenge from a technical speed point of view. That question is long answered.


----------



## Soundhound

charlieclouser said:


> Oh this will be just for browsing Reddit and posting on vi-control! (j/k)
> 
> Seriously though, I don't really do any serious music work on a laptop - but that's mainly because my current 2012 i7 doesn't have enough internal storage to have all my libraries at hand, I don't want to bring a sack full of T2 SSDs and hubs, plus I hate using a trackpad for Logic. But with the new M1max machine I can at least have a reasonable facsimile of my studio setup in portable form, and if I do happen to take an extended holiday I won't be carefully toting a ten-year-old machine around the globe, afraid that it will die at any moment. I can just plug headphones into the new machine and have my full EXS / Sampler and WAV loops libraries on-board, along with all of mixes and the full Logic projects for all of the SAW movies, so if I want to do serious work in the middle of nowhere, I can just buy a 4k tv for a few hundred bucks and leave it behind at the AirBnb when I go home.
> 
> My 2012 machine is still going strong, never had an issue, but I have beaten on it for hours a day for nine years, and I kind of wonder if and when the battery or SSD will go bad. I'll keep the old girl around just to run my old (non-subscription) version of SketchUp and other seldom-used legacy apps, but the new M1max will be my only non-desktop computer.
> 
> It's been so long since I bought a new laptop but I'm glad I waited.
> 
> Once I get the new machine and see what the workflow is like with Logic v10.7, spatial audio, Monterey, Apple Silicon, etc. I will re-evaluate whether or not I want to do a last-minute panic-buy of a 2019 Intel Mac Pro 28-core (just to keep ReWire working for a few more years) or whether I'll just cruise along with my 2013 Mac Pro cylinder until Apple Silicon Mac Pros come out.
> 
> I kind of doubt that ReWire with Logic and Ableton Live can be made to work on Apple Silicon, but if anyone has made that work, chime in?





charlieclouser said:


> Oh this will be just for browsing Reddit and posting on vi-control! (j/k)
> 
> Seriously though, I don't really do any serious music work on a laptop - but that's mainly because my current 2012 i7 doesn't have enough internal storage to have all my libraries at hand, I don't want to bring a sack full of T2 SSDs and hubs, plus I hate using a trackpad for Logic. But with the new M1max machine I can at least have a reasonable facsimile of my studio setup in portable form, and if I do happen to take an extended holiday I won't be carefully toting a ten-year-old machine around the globe, afraid that it will die at any moment. I can just plug headphones into the new machine and have my full EXS / Sampler and WAV loops libraries on-board, along with all of mixes and the full Logic projects for all of the SAW movies, so if I want to do serious work in the middle of nowhere, I can just buy a 4k tv for a few hundred bucks and leave it behind at the AirBnb when I go home.
> 
> My 2012 machine is still going strong, never had an issue, but I have beaten on it for hours a day for nine years, and I kind of wonder if and when the battery or SSD will go bad. I'll keep the old girl around just to run my old (non-subscription) version of SketchUp and other seldom-used legacy apps, but the new M1max will be my only non-desktop computer.
> 
> It's been so long since I bought a new laptop but I'm glad I waited.
> 
> Once I get the new machine and see what the workflow is like with Logic v10.7, spatial audio, Monterey, Apple Silicon, etc. I will re-evaluate whether or not I want to do a last-minute panic-buy of a 2019 Intel Mac Pro 28-core (just to keep ReWire working for a few more years) or whether I'll just cruise along with my 2013 Mac Pro cylinder until Apple Silicon Mac Pros come out.
> 
> I kind of doubt that ReWire with Logic and Ableton Live can be made to work on Apple Silicon, but if anyone has made that work, chime in?


Aha, thabks makes sense… I’ve got a 2012 i7 macbook pro also. the volvo of laptops, will have to drive it off a bridge someday because it won’t die. Is your 2013 trash can running out of headroom at all these days, with maybe newer cpu hungry plugs/or cpu voracious libraries?


----------



## Virtuoso

PhilipJohnston said:


> Just thinking...8TB hard drive. Are we now in a space where it's fine to run (say) 5-6 TB of samples direct from the _internal_ drive on this M1 beast? Or is that still as bad an idea as its ever been?


That advice is a hangover from old mechanical hard drives, where a seek head would move over a spinning disk to access data at physical locations on the rotating magnetic platters, kind of like moving a needle on a vinyl LP to find a specific track. This causes logjam latency issues when you need to read thousands of tiny sample files scattered across the drive virtually simultaneously - it's really a worst case scenario for HDDs.

SSDs, even older SATA ones, totally changed the game here. Data no longer has a physical location in the old sense and latency/access/seek times are much much lower (>100x).


----------



## charlieclouser

Soundhound said:


> Aha, thabks makes sense… I’ve got a 2012 i7 macbook pro also. the volvo of laptops, will have to drive it off a bridge someday because it won’t die. Is your 2013 trash can running out of headroom at all these days, with maybe newer cpu hungry plugs/or cpu voracious libraries?


My 2013 cylinder is cruising along excellently. Once in a while some Kontakt libraries can make it hit the ceiling on Logic's notorious "last core", but mine is a 12-core which has the slow base clock speed of 2.7 I think. Plus I rarely use Kontakt, and if I have those issues I just run VEPro locally. Can't remember the last time I had to do that honestly.

When I get the new laptop I will see how it goes with software compatibility and do some Logic testing, and if I can manage to get ReWire to work with Logic v10.7 and Ableton Live v10 or v11 (which will have to run in Rosetta mode) - or if I can figure out a better workflow for manipulating audio the way I do in Ableton, then I will wait for the Apple Silicon Pro and hope it comes in a year or two.

My cylinder has been great, and I'm quite happy with it. The main reason I would upgrade to the current Mac Pro would be to get PCIe cards to host m.2 SSDs, but by the time the Apple Silicon Pro comes out I bet Apple will have something for local storage that destroys the speeds of third-party SSD blades on a fourth-party card. The internal drive on the new laptops supposedly gets 7,000 mb/sec which is way beyond anything else, so I'm looking forward to whatever they put in the next pro desktop! Honestly based on quoted specs and early Geekbench results for the M1max, it's probably fine for anything I would throw at it, but I definitely want a desktop form factor for studio work.


----------



## charlieclouser

PhilipJohnston said:


> Just thinking...8TB hard drive. Are we now in a space where it's fine to run (say) 5-6 TB of samples direct from the _internal_ drive on this M1 beast? Or is that still as bad an idea as its ever been?


I have a 2013 Mac Pro cylinder 6-core with 1tb internal drive that I use only as a ProTools stem recorder, and I don't even bother using an external drive. MacOS, apps, and audio recorded to the Documents folder. With PThd Native I can record 64 tracks at 24/48 while playing back 192 tracks and the disc usage meter just flickers the lowest couple of bars. And that drive gets around 980 mb/sec on speed test.

So, yeah, with these new Apple Silicon machines, no problem at all to just use the boot drive for MacOS, samples, audio, and projects.... just let everything get installed in the default locations and get rollin'. They quote the internal storage on the M1max at 7,000 mb/sec - that's going to blow away any external storage - *fourteen times *the speed of a SATA SSD in a MultiDock!

Crazy.


----------



## jcrosby

PhilipJohnston said:


> Just thinking...8TB hard drive. Are we now in a space where it's fine to run (say) 5-6 TB of samples direct from the _internal_ drive on this M1 beast? Or is that still as bad an idea as its ever been?
> 
> If so, the packing list for a truly portable orchestra is getting nicely compact:
> 
> • Macbook Pro
> • Headphones
> • Audio interface
> 
> And a keyboard (optional). No need for external drives.
> 
> Are we there yet?


I have an 8TB in my i9 MBP. I hit the CPU limit waaay before I'd ever hit any theoretical disk IO limit. I'm running the usual suspects... Full hybrid templates... OT, SF, Heavyocity, Audio Imperia, Omnisphere, etc. Basically the internal disks provide more than enough speed... 


EDIT: Jinx! Charlie beat me to it!


----------



## M_Helder

Apple came out swinging this year. Wow. Those chips are phenomenal.

The price is a consideration still, but when you put everything into perspective it turns out to be a really good value! Just looking at the comparison shots with a somewhat equivalent Mac Pro: Macbook Pro is almost x3 the value.😮

P.S. excuse the Russian, but you get the idea.


----------



## khollister

I'm so weak - just ordered a maxed out 16"! Delivery before Thanksgiving. Based on a couple Geekbench scores posted already, it looks like my prediction of 11,000 was low. I have seen one at 11,800 and another at 12,000+, which handily beats my current iMac Pro as well as a 12 core 2019 MP. While some future 20 core Mac Pro Lite is addicting, this will allow me to run one rig instead of 2 with all of my VSL Synchron libs on the internal SSD.

I'm also a photographer and I can use the laptop screen for critical work without worrying about running out to buy a large monitor with photo-quality color (I may eventually end up with an 32 XDR next year anyway). I can pick up some inexpensive 32" 4k monitor to just use in the music rig in the near term.

Some massive CPU/RAM improvement over my iMP is attractive, but that's not here yet and frankly, I rarely tap out the iMac Pro except for single core CPU during recording (problem solved with the M1). I'll likely keep my 13 MBP due to size and weight for surfing the internet on the couch and such. I can recover a couple grand on selling the iMP too.

If I change my mind after some early reports, I can always cancel the order or return if I'm underwhelmed. 

It's only money


----------



## davidson

khollister said:


> It's only money


What's this 'money' thing you speak of?


----------



## hayvel

So far the discussion here is mainly about the high specced systems. To me, the base 14" M1 Pro with the 32gb ram Upgrade (6+2 CPU, 32gb ram, 512gb ssd) and external sample drive might be the potential sweet spot. It actually seems like a capable and reasonable DAW system and a significat step up from a comparable Macbook Air M1, considering all the other benefits you get (connectivity, audio output, screen etc.). I mean, it's hard to resist beefing up the specs when configuring a macbook on the apple website, you get FOMO easily. But in a real context, I wonder if the base model with a bit more ram might be plenty already.

I am really looking forward to the first complete benchmarks that also cover the odd in between CPU.


----------



## Alex Fraser

hayvel said:


> So far the discussion here is mainly about the high specced systems. To me, the base 14" M1 Pro with the 32gb ram Upgrade (6+2 CPU, 32gb ram, 512gb ssd) and external sample drive might be the potential sweet spot. It actually seems like a capable and reasonable DAW system and a significat step up from a comparable Macbook Air M1, considering all the other benefits you get (connectivity, audio output, screen etc.). I mean, it's hard to resist beefing up the specs when configuring a macbook on the apple website, you get FOMO easily. But in a real context, I wonder if the base model with a bit more ram might be plenty already.
> 
> I am really looking forward to the first complete benchmarks that also cover the odd in between CPU.


My thoughts too. I don't think one has to hit "add to cart" on all the upgrade options to get a system that's going to be very capable. But then I note that's it's "only" a £200 bump to upgrade to the "Max" and so around we go... 😂

As an aside, it's easy to imagine that we're already looking at the CPU lineup for any "pro" mini and the bigger iMac. Only real question mark left may be the Mac Pro?


----------



## khollister

Alex Fraser said:


> My thoughts too. I don't think one has to hit "add to cart" on all the upgrade options to get a system that's going to be very capable.
> 
> But then I note that's it's "only" a £200 bump to upgrade to the "Max" and so around we go... 😂


The MAX/RAM upgrades are far more reasonable than I feared/expected. The real cost driver is the SSD upgrade, but when taken in the context that we are talking about PCIe 4 Samsung 980 Pro level of performance, that doesn't seem too insane either.

A completely loaded 16" is US$6000 before sales tax or Applecare. While a hell of a lot of money for a laptop in traditional thinking, it's a pretty fair price given the screen & performance levels. We are basically talking about a 12 core Mac Pro with Afterburner card and small XDR display in a portable package for less money. Frankly, I wouldn't have been too surprised if all this wasn't $1000-2000 more expensive given it's Apple.

As I recall, the last gen Intel 16" MBP was about the same price when maxed out and this thing should murder it in performance, lack of heat and battery life.


----------



## davidson

hayvel said:


> So far the discussion here is mainly about the high specced systems. To me, the base 14" M1 Pro with the 32gb ram Upgrade (6+2 CPU, 32gb ram, 512gb ssd) and external sample drive might be the potential sweet spot. It actually seems like a capable and reasonable DAW system and a significat step up from a comparable Macbook Air M1, considering all the other benefits you get (connectivity, audio output, screen etc.). I mean, it's hard to resist beefing up the specs when configuring a macbook on the apple website, you get FOMO easily. But in a real context, I wonder if the base model with a bit more ram might be plenty already.
> 
> I am really looking forward to the first complete benchmarks that also cover the odd in between CPU.


When you consider that macbook would cost £2,300, and I bought a refurb M1 mini with the same specs apart from half the ram for £750 from apple a couple of months ago, it's pretty hard for me to justify the upgrade price.

I feel like BIP is going to be my best friend for the next 12 months. What are the rest of the mini desperately-waiting-for-more-ram crowd going to do?


----------



## khollister

Given Apple's previous positioning of the Mini, I'm not expecting a M1MAX version. They might do a M1Pro version or they may just proceed to a 2 tier Mac Pro solution (MP Lite and Heavy). I fully expect crazy core count GPU's in the MP's and no need for MPX slots. They may leave a couple PCIe 4 slots in, but I expect a much smaller chassis. 

There will likely be a higher spec Mini, but I wouldn't hold my breath on it being a headless, "batteryless" MBP Max.


----------



## SupremeFist

So... are we just not going to talk about The Notch?


----------



## el-bo

M_Helder said:


> The price is a consideration still, but when you put everything into perspective it turns out to be a really good value!


For some perspective: When I bought my first Macbook Pro back in 2007, it cost £1800. It had a 15" low-res (by today's standards) screen, a 2.33 Core2Duo processor, some small-ish capacity spinning HD and 3gigs of RAM (expandable to 3gigs). Putting aside inflation, this is what that kinda money gets us now:







Once you add in teh fact that Macbooks have always worked very well without Audio interfaces, and the fact that Logic Pro users have been getting free upgrades for nearly 8 years off the back of an initial 200-quid investment, and Apple's laptops start to look decidedly 'Budget!'


----------



## el-bo

SupremeFist said:


> So... are we just not going to talk about The Notch?


Notch???

Nothing to see here...




Nothing! Nothing...Nothing...Tra la la!


----------



## khollister

SupremeFist said:


> So... are we just not going to talk about The Notch?


From what I understand from the presentation, the new screens are essentially the same size/aspect ratio (16:10) below the notch. The display real estate on either side of the notch is essentially what was top bezel on the old displays. It appears that full screen apps will be "sub-notch" with no decrease in display area. It also appears that the menu bar will wrap around the notch and possible will still be visible even in full screen mode (yea!). The only downside I see is in apps that have a ton of menu items as well as you having a bunch of menubar widgets (thinking iStat widgets). Among other reasons (modest cost difference, bigger battery, potentially less fan action under heavy load due to more volume), it is a reason I went for 16" instead of 14".

I would have preferred no notch, but I think we are getting some "free" display area in return. They made a point of explaining all that in the presentation - it is obviously expected to be a touchy subject by Apple.


----------



## hayvel

davidson said:


> When you consider that macbook would cost £2,300, and I bought a refurb M1 mini with the same specs apart from half the ram for £750 from apple a couple of months ago, it's pretty hard for me to justify the upgrade price.
> 
> I feel like BIP is going to be my best friend for the next 12 months. What are the rest of the mini desperately-waiting-for-more-ram crowd going to do?


I get your point, and it's perfectly reasonable from a certain perspective. If you already have all the peripherals and mobility is no thing for you, the mac mini is a great option. Now, for me, a stationary pc is no option, I need to be flexible with where I work. The Macbook includes trackpad, keyboard, a screen, a battery, that all add up to a higher price and do not need to be bought seperately. That sort of compensates for a higher pricetag/power.

Regarding performance, the M1 Pro 8 core has 6 performance cores vs. 4 in the M1, which means potentially almost 50% more 'performance power'... yeah, I know, its a simplified estimation, but you get the point. This can bring a noticable difference.


----------



## khollister

hayvel said:


> Regarding performance, the M1 Pro 8 core has 6 performance cores vs. 4 in the M1, which means potentially almost 50% more 'performance power'... yeah, I know, its a simplified estimation, but you get the point. This can bring a noticable difference.


Part of the reason the 10 core M1Pro/Max isn't 2X the performance of the M1 is the Icestorm efficiency cores. The M1 has 4 vs 2 in the Pro/Max. From my testing with my M1 13" with Logic, they do make a difference. Enabling the efficiency cores does result in more tracks.


----------



## AndyP

This is the MacBook I was hoping for. However, I'm still not clear which apps and plugins will work with the devices and which won't.
If I can't use half of my libraries and plugins anymore it's pointless for me to buy such a MacBook.


----------



## davidson

hayvel said:


> I get your point, and it's perfectly reasonable from a certain perspective. If you already have all the peripherals and mobility is no thing for you, the mac mini is a great option. Now, for me, a stationary pc is no option, I need to be flexible with where I work. The Macbook includes trackpad, keyboard, a screen, a battery, that all add up to a higher price and do not need to be bought seperately. That sort of compensates for a higher pricetag/power.
> 
> Regarding performance, the M1 Pro 8 core has 6 performance cores vs. 4 in the M1, which means potentially almost 50% more 'performance power'... yeah, I know, its a simplified estimation, but you get the point. This can bring a noticable difference.


Oh, i didn't realise the pro swapped out two efficiency for two performance, that's a little better. Still, it'll be somewhere ~9,500 on geekbench which is only 20% or so better than the standard m1, so....

If you need a laptop with 32gb+ ram though, its a no-brainer


----------



## khollister

AndyP said:


> This is the MacBook I was hoping for. However, I'm still not clear which apps and plugins will work with the devices and which won't.
> If I can't use half of my libraries and plugins anymore it's pointless for me to buy such a MacBook.


Aside from a couple free Softube plugins I don't use and some of the NI FX plugins (all GUI issues), I have yet to run across anything that doesn't work just fine, whether native or under Rosetta. Eventide just released native version of their plugins (iLok) so the rest of the iLok suspects should follow. I use UAD, Soundtoys, Relab, Liquidsonics, VSL, Spectrasonics, U-he, Kontakt, EW Opus with no issues. The Spitfire player stuff is a mixed bag - some is already native, some have betas that are cranky to install.


----------



## AndyP

khollister said:


> Aside from a couple free Softube plugins I don't use and some of the NI FX plugins (all GUI issues), I have yet to run across anything that doesn't work just fine, whether native or under Rosetta. Eventide just released native version of their plugins (iLok) so the rest of the iLok suspects should follow. I use UAD, Soundtoys, Relab, Liquidsonics, VSL, Spectrasonics, U-he, Kontakt, EW Opus with no issues. The Spitfire player stuff is a mixed bag - some is already native, some have betas that are cranky to install.


That sounds promising. Thanks for the info!


----------



## stodesign12

I love the CPUs, ports coming back, RAM, battery life and the general design of the laptop... but the notch is just not elegant, and I can't stand that they are trying so hard to make it look cool. 
It isn't "free new space" for the menu bar above the standard aspect ratio (what an awful excuse), this is simply a bigger screen with a different aspect ratio and a portion of it hidden under the notch. 
And what is even worse, the solution for full screen apps seems to be to eliminate ALL the horizontal space next to the notch, it's just ridiculous. 
Anyway, after this rant I shoud say that I really love this new model lol.


----------



## sourcefor

khollister said:


> Aside from a couple free Softube plugins I don't use and some of the NI FX plugins (all GUI issues), I have yet to run across anything that doesn't work just fine, whether native or under Rosetta. Eventide just released native version of their plugins (iLok) so the rest of the iLok suspects should follow. I use UAD, Soundtoys, Relab, Liquidsonics, VSL, Spectrasonics, U-he, Kontakt, EW Opus with no issues. The Spitfire player stuff is a mixed bag - some is already native, some have betas that are cranky to install.


Keep in mind this computer comes with OS Monterrey, so how many devs are up to speed on this? Slate just sent an email stating not to update! That’s the only thing stopping me from getting this machine!


----------



## SupremeFist

Yeah they could also have an irregularly shaped bit sticking out the side and tell me it was free extra screen space and I'd still think it was fugly. 

What I find intriguing is that the massive notch seems designed to be big enough for a Face ID array and yet there isn't one in there, just a single webcam. Maybe they couldn't source the parts in time and released it like that anyway, planning to put Face ID in the next update as an "upgrade".

Don't get me wrong though, these machines seem awesome otherwise. Not currently in the market for one as my i7 Mini is fine for another few years but I like where the mac is going.


----------



## hayvel

khollister said:


> Part of the reason the 10 core M1Pro/Max isn't 2X the performance of the M1 is the Icestorm efficiency cores. The M1 has 4 vs 2 in the Pro/Max. From my testing with my M1 13" with Logic, they do make a difference. Enabling the efficiency cores does result in more tracks.


You have a very good point there, that makes perfect sense. I don't know what I was thinking. So yeah, we are probably rather looking at something between 20 to 30% in performance increase, maybe. Looking forward to the first real world test results when the new models have shipped.


----------



## khollister

sourcefor said:


> Keep in mind this computer comes with OS Monterrey, so how many devs are up to speed on this? Slate just sent an email stating not to update! That’s the only thing stopping me from getting this machine!


Fair point, but given that anyone ordering today isn't getting a machine for at least 4-6 weeks, I wouldn't hit the panic button just yet. I do know the UAD stuff seems to work OK with the Monterey betas except for a driver bug that was fixed in a subsequent beta version. 

I am encouraged by the recent speed of many developers releasing AS native versions. I think folks are realizing that telling people not to buy new Macs that blow away the Intel ones isa questionable business tactic. I was rather surprised by Waves and Eventide recently releasing native versions of everything.


----------



## Al Maurice

I'd be interested to see how the new Macs perform under stress.

Intel i7 processors are notorious for ramping down performance rapidly on machines that cannot properly ventilate the heat build up.

Also these M1s seem to be optimised towards graphics and 3D, so I wonder what will happen once all the DAWs and plugins are properly supported whether we see any increased benefits against the equivalent Intel chips aimed at the same market segment.


----------



## wayne_rowley

Really excited about the potential of these chips and machines, and glad they now support a decent amount of RAM.

I'm waiting though, firstly:

- To see real-world reports of these used in the DAW context. A lot of companies are still catching up with hardware and software support. I want all my kit to be natively supported before I switch to AS. Also wait to see what glitches or hardware issues might be revealed when they come out.

- I don't want a laptop. I'll wait to see whatever it is Apple launch to replace the Intel Mac Mini.

Until then I'm going to stick with my 6 core Mini - probably for another 6-9 months at least.

Wayne


----------



## mat1

It's a shame 5k monitors never really took off. I'd love to move away from the 5k iMac onto a tricked out M1Max.


----------



## pixelcrave

SupremeFist said:


> So... are we just not going to talk about The Notch?





stodesign12 said:


> I love the CPUs, ports coming back, RAM, battery life and the general design of the laptop... but the notch is just not elegant, and I can't stand that they are trying so hard to make it look cool.
> It isn't "free new space" for the menu bar above the standard aspect ratio (what an awful excuse), this is simply a bigger screen with a different aspect ratio and a portion of it hidden under the notch.
> And what is even worse, the solution for full screen apps seems to be to eliminate ALL the horizontal space next to the notch, it's just ridiculous.
> Anyway, after this rant I shoud say that I really love this new model lol.


Like it or not, it's still a top notch machine (sorry, can't resist).


----------



## Tronam

pixelcrave said:


> Like it or not, it's still a top notch machine (sorry, can't resist).


Rule #1: Never apologize for your puns.


----------



## Technostica

khollister said:


> Part of the reason the 10 core M1Pro/Max isn't 2X the performance of the M1 is the Icestorm efficiency cores. The M1 has 4 vs 2 in the Pro/Max. From my testing with my M1 13" with Logic, they do make a difference. Enabling the efficiency cores does result in more tracks.


I had forgotten that and it partly helps to explain why they quoted up to 70% CPU performance gain.

So they've gone from 4/4 to 2/8.
So if a small core equals half a big core and we ignore other differences for now, we are seeing a jump from 6 to 9.
So that's 50%, then you add in other gains, probably mainly from the massive increase in memory bandwidth and 70% makes sense.
The cut down 8 core version seems a poor choice for DAW users though.


----------



## rnb_2

wayne_rowley said:


> Really excited about the potential of these chips and machines, and glad they now support a decent amount of RAM.
> 
> I'm waiting though, firstly:
> 
> - To see real-world reports of these used in the DAW context. A lot of companies are still catching up with hardware and software support. I want all my kit to be natively supported before I switch to AS. Also wait to see what glitches or hardware issues might be revealed when they come out.
> 
> - I don't want a laptop. I'll wait to see whatever it is Apple launch to replace the Intel Mac Mini.
> 
> Until then I'm going to stick with my 6 core Mini - probably for another 6-9 months at least.
> 
> Wayne


Yeah, I have to admit that I was a bit disappointed when the event got close to wrapping up and it became clear that there wasn't going to be a Mac mini announcement. Do I need one? No. But this is the shoe that had been threatening to drop for almost a year, so I couldn't help but ponder,"Could I switch to a laptop and replace both my M1 MacBook Air and M1 Mac mini?" In the end, it just seems silly to spend that much on a laptop that is going to end up being used in clamshell mode 99% of the time. The Air has plenty of performance for my occasional mobile needs, and works well as a second computer otherwise.

I still wanted some new shiny, though.


----------



## RSK

handz said:


> I think that the m1max will be interesting.
> 
> 
> Anyway, Apple, why the hell you cant have one consumer and one Pro chip... :-I


Because Steve died ten years ago.


----------



## RSK

Al Maurice said:


> I'd be interested to see how the new Macs perform under stress.
> 
> Intel i7 processors are notorious for ramping down performance rapidly on machines that cannot properly ventilate the heat build up.


There's very little similarity between Intel and Apple design philosophy, so I'm not sure how valid a comparison this is.....


----------



## Nimrod7

mat1 said:


> It's a shame 5k monitors never really took off. I'd love to move away from the 5k iMac onto a tricked out M1Max.


I love the screen of the iMac, best value for money ever. 
I think the only comparable monitor is that old LG Ultrafine 5K, or the lg-34WK95U-W if you love ultrawide. 
I have an XDR display which is beyond outstanding for visual work, but the cost is very hard to be justified for music production.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

tsk said:


> Also, I would have liked details on the new headphone jack supporting high impedance headphones. What does this actually mean?


I don't know whether anyone's answered this, but some older headphones - such as my ancient AKG K240Ms - are 600Ω rather than the <50Ω impedance of something like Apple Earbuds.

Higher impedance = more resistance = needs must more power.

Having said that, my hunch is that the $550 Apple headphones want it.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro updated on the new MacBook Pro with M1 Pro; M1 Max
> 
> 
> Final Cut Pro delivers huge advances in 8K video performance; Logic Pro features a complete set of tools for creating music in spatial audio.
> 
> 
> 
> www.apple.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone able to update Logic Pro to 10.7 yet?


I can't update to the previous ones, but that's what's making me think it's finally time to update my 2009 machine.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

gsilbers said:


> I see it more of an investment Apple is making into Hollywood’s back end.


Proctologists to the stars?


----------



## khollister

rnb_2 said:


> Yeah, I have to admit that I was a bit disappointed when the event got close to wrapping up and it became clear that there wasn't going to be a Mac mini announcement. Do I need one? No. But this is the shoe that had been threatening to drop for almost a year, so I couldn't help but ponder,"Could I switch to a laptop and replace both my M1 MacBook Air and M1 Mac mini?" In the end, it just seems silly to spend that much on a laptop that is going to end up being used in clamshell mode 99% of the time. The Air has plenty of performance for my occasional mobile needs, and works well as a second computer otherwise.
> 
> I still wanted some new shiny, though.


Yeah, I went through that internal dialog as well. My situation is that I spend quite a bit of time in the summers away from home and need/want a fairly complete system. The biggest issue for me isn't that the M1 doesn't have enough grunt but that I have to configure and maintain/synchronize 2 different systems. The huge internal SSD on the 16" will mean minimal external drives and extra RAM sure doesn't hurt (the 16 on the M1 is pretty confining). Another advantage is I really don't have room for a 2nd conventional monitor, but the laptop screen becomes a mixer window while the DAW is on the big monitor. I also can get $2500 for my iMP. 

The iMac Pro just feels so sluggish compared to the M1, I was getting impatient waiting (the real reason).


----------



## SuperD

Hey ya'll. I'm looking at buying one of the new machines... I'm curious how much internal storage is necessary. All my libraries are already on external SSDs, so in an aim to cut costs, I'm guessing one could get away with a 1TB SSD for the new M1 MBPs. Thoughts? Concerns?


----------



## BassClef

Twin monitor advice please, for a hobbyist composing in Logic.

OK... Like many here, I was hoping for a "Mac Mini Pro" to replace my 7 year old 27" iMac, and was planning to get a pretty good "photo editing" monitor to go with it. Now I am considering the MacBook Pro and a 27" or 30" 4-K monitor. I do not currently have a laptop. I do not actually need one, but I'd like some advice on how much two monitors would help my hobbyist composing in Logic. (MacBook Pro and 27-30 inch 4-K monitor) I do not compose to film.


----------



## BassClef

SuperD said:


> Hey ya'll. I'm looking at buying one of the new machines... I'm curious how much internal storage is necessary. All my libraries are already on external SSDs, so in an aim to cut costs, I'm guessing one could get away with a 1TB SSD for the new M1 MBPs. Thoughts? Concern Similar here. I'm currently on a 7 year old iMac with only 256GB internal.


I'm on a 7 yr old iMac with only 256GB internal SSD. I only use the internal for Mac OS and applications. Everything else is in the cloud and on external SATA SSDs via USB 3.0. If I were to stick to that plan with a new machine, 1TB would be plenty. I may do that with a new MacBook Pro and keep all of my external drives as is, but gradually upgrade them to external NVMe drives running inside a Thunderbolt 4 enclosure.


----------



## khollister

BassClef said:


> Twin monitor advice please, for a hobbyist composing in Logic.
> 
> OK... Like many here, I was hoping for a "Mac Mini Pro" to replace my 7 year old 27" iMac, and was planning to get a pretty good "photo editing" monitor to go with it. Now I am considering the MacBook Pro and a 27" or 30" 4-K monitor. I do not currently have a laptop. I do not actually need one, but I'd like some advice on how much two monitors would help my hobbyist composing in Logic. (MacBook Pro and 27-30 inch 4-K monitor) I do not compose to film.


The conventional use of a 2nd monitor in a DAW is either to host a separate mixer window to maximize track space in the main window, or to park a VI or plugin window to not obscure the DAW window. Personally my choice is to separate the mixer view from the rest of the DAW.


----------



## Fox

I've been wating an effing year for these laptops to drop, hanging on to my puttering 2015 15" MBP, so I'm ecstatic with the new MBP offerings. (I was so afraid they would max out at 32MB ram.) 

At first, I ordered the 16" with 64MB ram and a 1TB SSD, but then realized I should just bite the bullet and go for the 8TB SSD (thanks to this damn thread!!), so I cancelled my first order and splurged! I'm very excited. We will see how this machine performs in the wild, but for me, a portable rig that has this much power is exactly what I've been waiting for. And I've been saving to spend the dough, so even if it is too much money, all I can say, is "ef it, I'm in!"


----------



## Nico5

BassClef said:


> Now I am considering the MacBook Pro and a 27" or 30" 4-K monitor.


If you want to maximize *legible *screen space I would recommend at least 40" for a 4K monitor. At that size each pixel is about the same size as on your 7 year old 27" iMac screen. 

Another consideration to save a bit of money is to get a 43" 4K TV (with at least 60Hz refresh rate). I'm having a very pleasant experience with a 40" Samsung TV (it even has Airplay capability). 

At that size you can run software in regular native size and things are still legible (assuming the TV is on a reasonably normal sized desk). 

However, that size at relatively close distance necessitates moving one's head to look at different parts of the screen. Some people hate that, but I actually prefer it, since every little bit of movement while sitting in front of a screen is a good thing and it also gives me the feeling more like sitting in front of a wall of hardware in an old fashioned hardware studio. 🤓 Side note: In front of a large physical mixer you even have to move from side to side to reach all of the controls.

Also: I have to turn my TV on and off manually, since my video card doesn't send the on/off signal over HDMI. Not sure, if the new MacBook Pro's HDMI sends that signal.


----------



## emilio_n

Nico5 said:


> If you want to maximize *legible *screen space I would recommend at least 40" for a 4K monitor. At that size each pixel is about the same size as on your 7 year old 27" iMac screen.
> 
> Another consideration to save a bit of money is to get a 43" 4K TV (with at least 60Hz refresh rate). I'm having a very pleasant experience with a 40" Samsung TV (it even has Airplay capability).
> 
> At that size you can run software in regular native size and things are still legible (assuming the TV is on a reasonably normal sized desk).
> 
> However, that size at relatively close distance necessitates moving one's head to look at different parts of the screen. Some people hate that, but I actually prefer it, since every little bit of movement while sitting in front of a screen is a good thing and it also gives me the feeling more like sitting in front of a wall of hardware in an old fashioned hardware studio. 🤓 Side note: In front of a large physical mixer you even have to move from side to side to reach all of the controls.
> 
> Also: I have to turn my TV on and off manually, since my video card doesn't send the on/off signal over HDMI. Not sure, if the new MacBook Pro's HDMI sends that signal.


Ufff 43" on my desk will be huge!
Any other recommendation around 30"?


----------



## Nico5

Yes it's large. But I've never bothered with a smaller at 4K monitor, so can't recommend anything.

But a very good music making friend of mine originally bought a 32" 4K monitor about a couple of years ago (I think it was an LG monitor). While the monitor was very nice, he found the pixels just too small at native 4K resolution.

So last week he replaced it with a 43" Samsung TV. And now he's fully happy with his monitor setup.

But I don't mean to talk you into something you don't want - so follow your own heart.


----------



## rnb_2

Nico5 said:


> Yes it's large. But I've never bothered with a smaller at 4K monitor, so can't recommend anything.
> 
> But a very good music making friend of mine originally bought a 32" 4K monitor about a couple of years ago (I think it was an LG monitor). While the monitor was very nice, he found the pixels just too small at native 4K resolution.
> 
> So last week he replaced it with a 43" Samsung TV. And now he's fully happy with his monitor setup.
> 
> But I don't mean to talk you into something you don't want - so follow your own heart.


I assume you're running Windows? Very few Mac users would run a 4k screen at 4k - most would run a scaled resolution of some kind, either a simulated 1920x1080 (what Apple would call true Retina) but twice as sharp, or maybe a step or two up from that. Personally, I prefer to run anything in the 24-27" range at the equivalent of 2560x1440 - either native on a 2k display, or scaled on a 4k (thus simulating a Retina 5k display, just not quite as sharp).


----------



## emilio_n

Nico5 said:


> Yes it's large. But I've never bothered with a smaller at 4K monitor, so can't recommend anything.
> 
> But a very good music making friend of mine originally bought a 32" 4K monitor about a couple of years ago (I think it was an LG monitor). While the monitor was very nice, he found the pixels just too small at native 4K resolution.
> 
> So last week he replaced it with a 43" Samsung TV. And now he's fully happy with his monitor setup.
> 
> But I don't mean to talk you into something you don't want - so follow your own heart.


No, no. I think is good advice, I was using iMacs for the last 10 years so I am a little bit lost about the screen monitor world. I am thinking if worth it to get a new MBP Max or just wait until iMac or Mac Mini arrives. 

I was waiting a couple of years, so maybe I can wait a few months more.


----------



## charlieclouser

emilio_n said:


> Ufff 43" on my desk will be huge!
> Any other recommendation around 30"?


I use a Samsung UJ590 32" 4k display. (Three of them actually)









32" UJ590 UHD Monitor Monitors - LU32J590UQNXZA | Samsung US


Discover the latest features and innovations available in the 32 inches UJ590 UHD Monitor . Find the perfect Monitors for you!




www.samsung.com





It was less than $400 at the local Best Buy and they had dozens on the shelf.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-uj59-series-u32j590uqn-32-led-4k-uhd-freesync-monitor-displayport-hdmi-dark-gray-blue/6293716.p?skuId=6293716
The only drag is that the stand is fixed at one height. But it has VESA mounting holes so I just slapped it on an Ergotron arm I had laying around.

32" at full 4k resolution is fine by me, because I don't have a ton of stuff on my desk between me and the monitor, so the monitor is about at arm's length from my eyes. If you need to mount it further away then, yes, it will be in squinty-vision mode unless you scale it to a lower resolution for bigger pixels.

I tried a 43" 4k display, but it was just too huge (physically) for the same number of pixels as the 32". If I had a mixer or big control surface that pushed it further away it would be good, but as it was I had to keep swiveling my head around instead of just moving my eyes, which I did not like. Plus I need three monitors and three 43" would be like a video wall - just too much.


----------



## Nico5

rnb_2 said:


> I assume you're running Windows? Very few Mac users would run a 4k screen at 4k - most would run a scaled resolution of some kind, either a simulated 1920x1080 (what Apple would call true Retina) but twice as sharp, or maybe a step or two up from that. Personally, I prefer to run anything in the 24-27" range at the equivalent of 2560x1440 - either native on a 2k display, or scaled on a 4k (thus simulating a Retina 5k display, just not quite as sharp).


I can't speak for a majority of Mac (or Windows or Linux users), although I run all 3 operating systems on a daily basis.

I only know that my own preference is to max out how many tracks, channels, plugins etc I can see at at the same time. or how many ssh terminal sessions to various linux servers. Or how many browser windows or spreadsheet windows or whatever. -- And 4k in non-retina fashion gets me there at the most affordable price. And thus I need a minimum pixel size to make things legible at those native (non-retina) resolutions.

As you're saying, other people have different priorities indeed (majority or not is not even that important). 



emilio_n said:


> No, no. I think is good advice, I was using iMacs for the last 10 years so I am a little bit lost about the screen monitor world. I am thinking if worth it to get a new MBP Max or just wait until iMac or Mac Mini arrives.
> 
> I was waiting a couple of years, so maybe I can wait a few months more.


Haha - yes, the M1 Max is an outstanding architecture and I'm now seriously pining for an upgrade to my 2012 MacBook Pro i7 2.7 GHz Quadcore connected to a 27" Cinema Display. But the price is (unsurprisingly) hefty, so I may also wait a little longer unless my current setup breaks.


----------



## rnb_2

khollister said:


> Yeah, I went through that internal dialog as well. My situation is that I spend quite a bit of time in the summers away from home and need/want a fairly complete system. The biggest issue for me isn't that the M1 doesn't have enough grunt but that I have to configure and maintain/synchronize 2 different systems. The huge internal SSD on the 16" will mean minimal external drives and extra RAM sure doesn't hurt (the 16 on the M1 is pretty confining). Another advantage is I really don't have room for a 2nd conventional monitor, but the laptop screen becomes a mixer window while the DAW is on the big monitor. I also can get $2500 for my iMP.
> 
> The iMac Pro just feels so sluggish compared to the M1, I was getting impatient waiting (the real reason).


Yeah, that whole "keeping things in sync" dance is real. I've gotten fairly good at managing it, but it still takes time and attention that could go elsewhere. Still, I can't quite see spending ~$3k on a laptop that is almost never used as a laptop - I figure I'd be spending at least $1k for a miniLED screen that I'd almost never see. My use case is just two rooms in my house - upstairs in a small office if I want to concentrate during the day, downstairs at night when my wife is in bed.

Still tempting, though.


----------



## rnb_2

Nico5 said:


> I can't speak for a majority of Mac (or Windows or Linux users), although I run all 3 operating systems on a daily basis.
> 
> I only know that my own preference is to max out how many tracks, channels, plugins etc I can see at at the same time. or how many ssh terminal sessions to various linux servers. Or how many browser windows or spreadsheet windows or whatever. -- And 4k in non-retina fashion gets me there at the most affordable price. And thus I need a minimum pixel size to make things legible at those native (non-retina) resolutions.
> 
> As you're saying, other people have different priorities indeed (majority or not is not even that important).


If that works best for you, cool - didn't mean to imply otherwise.


----------



## Manaberry

charlieclouser said:


> I use a Samsung UJ590 32" 4k display. (Three of them actually)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 32" UJ590 UHD Monitor Monitors - LU32J590UQNXZA | Samsung US
> 
> 
> Discover the latest features and innovations available in the 32 inches UJ590 UHD Monitor . Find the perfect Monitors for you!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.samsung.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was less than $400 at the local Best Buy and they had dozens on the shelf.
> 
> https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-uj59-series-u32j590uqn-32-led-4k-uhd-freesync-monitor-displayport-hdmi-dark-gray-blue/6293716.p?skuId=6293716
> The only drag is that the stand is fixed at one height. But it has VESA mounting holes so I just slapped it on an Ergotron arm I had laying around.
> 
> 32" at full 4k resolution is fine by me, because I don't have a ton of stuff on my desk between me and the monitor, so the monitor is about at arm's length from my eyes. If you need to mount it further away then, yes, it will be in squinty-vision mode unless you scale it to a lower resolution for bigger pixels.
> 
> I tried a 43" 4k display, but it was just too huge (physically) for the same number of pixels as the 32". If I had a mixer or big control surface that pushed it further away it would be good, but as it was I had to keep swiveling my head around instead of just moving my eyes, which I did not like. Plus I need three monitors and three 43" would be like a video wall - just too much.


Do you use the default resolution or is it scaled? I have the same monitor and I like seeing a lot of things. I wish to get a bigger one such as a 43" while keeping the "default for display" option. But just like you, I have no way to get a 43" further away from me...


----------



## Nico5

rnb_2 said:


> Yeah, that whole "keeping things in sync" dance is real. I've gotten fairly good at managing it, but it still takes time and attention that could go elsewhere. Still, I can't quite see spending ~$3k on a laptop that is almost never used as a laptop - I figure I'd be spending at least $1k for a miniLED screen that I'd almost never see. My use case is just two rooms in my house - upstairs in a small office if I want to concentrate during the day, downstairs at night when my wife is in bed.
> 
> Still tempting, though.


Your point about highly integrated products effectively being a waste of money for many use cases is really valid. 

With the new M1 Pro and Max there's also this very high end graphics capability you have to get, even if you just want the additional RAM. This is super useful for those music makers who have taken to making YouTube videos, but for those that work just in sound, that super graphics capability will probably not be fully used.


----------



## Paulogic

As probably a lot of users, a Mini with this power would be nice. My 2020 Intel Mini with 32 GB
would finally replace my maxed out 27", 2015 iMac and the new Mini would be nice as a DAW and
VI machine.
A powerfull mini with a separate 27" or bigger screen is as good as an iMac for standard office use
I guess, including Parallels for some virtual W10, Linux and others OS.


----------



## charlieclouser

Manaberry said:


> Do you use the default resolution or is it scaled? I have the same monitor and I like seeing a lot of things. I wish to get a bigger one such as a 43" while keeping the "default for display" option. But just like you, I have no way to get a 43" further away from me...


I use it at the native, full-4k resolution. It's close to me though, exactly at arm's length from my normal seating position. 

Yes, things are tiny, but I like it that way. I use some settings in System Preferences > Accessibility to let me hold control and spin the scroll wheel on my trackball to temporarily zoom in, which works great. I use these settings on all my computers:


----------



## Manaberry

charlieclouser said:


> I use it at the native, full-4k resolution. It's close to me though, exactly at arm's length from my normal seating position.
> 
> Yes, things are tiny, but I like it that way. I use some settings in System Preferences > Accessibility to let me hold control and spin the scroll wheel on my trackball to temporarily zoom in, which works great. I use these settings on all my computers:


Gotta use the zoom thing. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Al Maurice

4K is great for video work or photo retouching/editing.

Although the UI in terms of scalability for different features in many DAWS remains a hit or a miss.

Even with the added optimisations small type is just that -- small and often illegible. So are much of the handles in CC lanes. If it's small for you on a hires display, well think what will happen at 4K.

Like others currently two screens of 2K is the sweet spot for me. Colour media work maybe 4K.


----------



## mat1

charlieclouser said:


> I use it at the native, full-4k resolution. It's close to me though, exactly at arm's length from my normal seating position.



Is the text sharp? MacBooks and iMacs are always very crisp.


----------



## SupremeFist

charlieclouser said:


> I use some settings in System Preferences > Accessibility to let me hold control and spin the scroll wheel on my trackball to temporarily zoom in, which works great. I use these settings on all my computers:


I have it set up this way too, very useful and quick to zoom in to tiny Kontakt guis while enjoying all the space of 4k in arrange and piano roll.


----------



## colony nofi

SupremeFist said:


> I have it set up this way too, very useful and quick to zoom in to tiny Kontakt guis while enjoying all the space of 4k in arrange and piano roll.


i'm using now 5k2k screens (both 34 and 40inch) on two workstations which work an absolute treat for DAWs. Our others are all on 4k screens (mostly 43inch) and one on a 49" 5k x 1440 monitor, which is awesome from an ergonomic perspective for a presentation studio since it leaves vertical height for C speaker and large TV above that, but I personally REALLY miss the extra vertical resolution when using that machine.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

I'm having buyers regret. Not sure if I should swap my 16inch 64gb 4tb for 14inch 64gb 4tb. Nothing is different other than the battery life... and a lot of AUD$


----------



## MarcusD

FrozenIcicle said:


> I'm having buyers regret. Not sure if I should swap my 16inch 64gb 4tb for 14inch 64gb 4tb. Nothing is different other than the battery life... and a lot of AUD$


If it was me I'd go with the smaller one and get the extra RAM. Can always use a cheap monitor or TV for more screen real-estate. Depends how you like to work though.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

MarcusD said:


> If it was me I'd go with the smaller one and get the extra RAM. Can always use a cheap monitor or TV for more screen real-estate. Depends how you like to work though.


It's true I'd be connecting it the majority of the time. Both would be 64gb


----------



## StefVR

Ther has never been a better time to upgrade


FrozenIcicle said:


> I'm having buyers regret. Not sure if I should swap my 16inch 64gb 4tb for 14inch 64gb 4tb. Nothing is different other than the battery life... and a lot of AUD$


I would say depends on your use case. If you use your laptop for travel a lot 14 inch is much more portable however the 16 inch probably will stay more silent under heavy load due to its room for more cooling. Benchmarks will show soon if that’s the case but it’s likely.


----------



## Pier

gsilbers said:


> I wonder why they skipped it. it was part of the rumors. maybe theyll leave it for later with the mac cube or whatever they said was the rumor of a smaller desktop.


I'm guessing here:

1) Apple wants to push users that need more than 16GB to go for the newer MBPs

2) They are instead working on a new Mini and waiting to release that with the M1 Pro/Max

Maybe both?


----------



## gsilbers

Pier said:


> I'm guessing here:
> 
> 1) Apple wants to push users that need more than 16GB to go for the newer MBPs
> 
> 2) They are instead working on a new Mini and waiting to release that with the M1 Pro/Max
> 
> Maybe both?


Seeing it from apples point of view, it might be they want to slowly introduce each chip and that way see the reactions, issues and the way it works w Monterrey.

And also, the main purpose of the m series is to not over heat and be small so MacBooks seem a good fit. 

And also split those events more evenly. Next we know it’s imac and mini and maybe cube. 
So mini would make more sense in that bunch I think. 

And next would be the Mac Pro w probably a m2 or something.


----------



## David Kudell

Does anyone know if the Apple silicon architecture could eventually allow for having traditional RAM sticks in addition to the integrated On chip RAM? For an eventual Apple silicon Mac Pro, this would allow for adding the Ram we need for sample libraries, ie up to 1.5TB in the current 2019 Intel Mac Pro. In my mind it would work kind of like the hybrid drives that combined a ssd and a spinning hard drive, but for RAM.


----------



## Pier

gsilbers said:


> And next would be the Mac Pro w probably a m2 or something.


Apple is following this plan with the M1 architecture:


----------



## tmhuud

Looking forward to the M5. (This…unit…must survive) 









M-5 computer


For the mirror universe counterpart, see M-5 computer (mirror). "This unit must survive." —M-5, 2268[src] The M-5 Multitronic Unit was an advanced computer that was made in the mid 23rd century. The machine made use of advanced multitronic computer technology and was more sophisticated than a...




memory-beta.fandom.com


----------



## David Kudell

Pier said:


> Apple is following this plan with the M1 architecture:


Um yeah, I’ll take a 4C please!


----------



## tmhuud

M1 thru M4 apparently were not entirely successful: “The *M-5 multitronic unit*, or the *M-5 computer*, was an advanced multitronic computer system and prototype created by Doctor Richard Daystrom during the mid-23rd century. It utilized very sophisticated https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Tools_and_technology (technology), probably similar to the Human neural network, and much more sophisticated than the duotronic computer commonly in use at the time. According to Dr. Daystrom, the computer could think and reason like a Human. He had used his own memory engrams as a model for the computer. Models M-1 through M-4 were not entirely successful.”


----------



## gamma-ut

David Kudell said:


> Does anyone know if the Apple silicon architecture could eventually allow for having traditional RAM sticks in addition to the integrated On chip RAM? For an eventual Apple silicon Mac Pro, this would allow for adding the Ram we need for sample libraries, ie up to 1.5TB in the current 2019 Intel Mac Pro. In my mind it would work kind of like the hybrid drives that combined a ssd and a spinning hard drive, but for RAM.


The unfortunate reality is that integrating processor and memory in the same package makes more sense from a performance and power point of view. One option might be to do what's happening in servers now where there's a slower 'persistent' memory that's halfway between DRAM and flash. That would make it easier to have a slightly smaller in-package memory with potentially hundreds of gigabytes that's accessed like regular DRAM to support things like big templates.

But that's not going to happen anytime soon if it ever happens for desktops (I think that option has now gone for laptops as far as Apple is concerned).


----------



## RoyBatty

Nico5 said:


> But a very good music making friend of mine originally bought a 32" 4K monitor about a couple of years ago (I think it was an LG monitor). While the monitor was very nice, he found the pixels just too small at native 4K resolution.


I run my 32” 4K screen at 150% resolution at a couple theft way max, and it is a good size. Equivelant to a 1440 screen real estate.


----------



## wayne_rowley

David Kudell said:


> Does anyone know if the Apple silicon architecture could eventually allow for having traditional RAM sticks in addition to the integrated On chip RAM? For an eventual Apple silicon Mac Pro, this would allow for adding the Ram we need for sample libraries, ie up to 1.5TB in the current 2019 Intel Mac Pro. In my mind it would work kind of like the hybrid drives that combined a ssd and a spinning hard drive, but for RAM.


It's entirely up to Apple. Technically it is possible, but they may not wish to do it for many reasons.

If they do, I suspect it will be on an AS Pro desktop only.

Wayne


----------



## gsilbers

Pier said:


> Apple is following this plan with the M1 architecture:



They might of run into name problems 
M1 súper pro Max.
M1 pro mega Max


----------



## emilio_n

The first rumours about the new iMac sounds promising...








Reliable display analyst says Apple to release 27-inch iMac in early 2022 featuring 120Hz ProMotion mini-LED screen


Following the impressive debuts of the 14-inch and 16-inch MacBook Pro, we are now waiting for Apple to finish the transition from Intel -> ARM CPUs. Remaining Intel Macs include the 27-inch iMac, the higher-end Mac mini and the Mac Pro. As we’ve seen with the new laptops, switching to Apple...




9to5mac.com





I think I will wait a little bit more.


----------



## mat1

David Kudell said:


> Does anyone know if the Apple silicon architecture could eventually allow for having traditional RAM sticks in addition to the integrated On chip RAM? For an eventual Apple silicon Mac Pro, this would allow for adding the Ram we need for sample libraries, ie up to 1.5TB in the current 2019 Intel Mac Pro. In my mind it would work kind of like the hybrid drives that combined a ssd and a spinning hard drive, but for RAM.


I’m not sure if any composers really put the M1 through it’s paces regarding sample libraries. I imagine software will need to be rewritten once we’re all on M1s.


----------



## davidson

emilio_n said:


> The first rumours about the new iMac sounds promising...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reliable display analyst says Apple to release 27-inch iMac in early 2022 featuring 120Hz ProMotion mini-LED screen
> 
> 
> Following the impressive debuts of the 14-inch and 16-inch MacBook Pro, we are now waiting for Apple to finish the transition from Intel -> ARM CPUs. Remaining Intel Macs include the 27-inch iMac, the higher-end Mac mini and the Mac Pro. As we’ve seen with the new laptops, switching to Apple...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9to5mac.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I will wait a little bit more.


As did all the rumours about the mac mini pro


----------



## tabulius

I hope everyone who preordered M1 Pros or Maxes will post some test results here. Curious to see how they handle virtual instruments. I'm still waiting for the next-gen Mac Minis.


----------



## David Kudell

gamma-ut said:


> The unfortunate reality is that integrating processor and memory in the same package makes more sense from a performance and power point of view. One option might be to do what's happening in servers now where there's a slower 'persistent' memory that's halfway between DRAM and flash. That would make it easier to have a slightly smaller in-package memory with potentially hundreds of gigabytes that's accessed like regular DRAM to support things like big templates.
> 
> But that's not going to happen anytime soon if it ever happens for desktops (I think that option has now gone for laptops as far as Apple is concerned).


Even if it did happen, honestly, I'm really loving the VEPro workflow of having my samples loaded constantly. Working on films in a one-cue-per-project workflow, it just saves a ton of time not having to reload samples for every cue, especially when it comes to crunch time and you need to print stems and do MIDI prep for orchestration and you're opening a ton of projects.

So a cheap PC loaded with RAM as a VEPro system makes sense alongside one of these new Apple Silicon Macs to run my DAW, synths, and FX plugins.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

This guy! Oy.









Upgrade Fever: Apple’s New MacBook Pro Laptops – Desktop Replacements for Musicians?


The machines just announced support up to 64GB of RAM, removing the biggest obstacle for musicians afflicting the first-generation Apple Silicon Macs Apple is now almost halfway through their announced 2-year transition from using Intel processors to their own M-series ones in Macintosh...




synthandsoftware.com


----------



## Alex Fraser

Nick Batzdorf said:


> This guy! Oy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Upgrade Fever: Apple’s New MacBook Pro Laptops – Desktop Replacements for Musicians?
> 
> 
> The machines just announced support up to 64GB of RAM, removing the biggest obstacle for musicians afflicting the first-generation Apple Silicon Macs Apple is now almost halfway through their announced 2-year transition from using Intel processors to their own M-series ones in Macintosh...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> synthandsoftware.com


He has a point though.

The biggest question mark left is the cooling, both in turns of potential throttling and..well…not sounding like a hoover.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Alex Fraser said:


> He has a point though?
> 
> The biggest question mark left is the cooling, both in turns of potential throttling and..well…not sounding lien a hoover.




I just saw this a couple of minutes ago:









New MacBook Pros Include Improved Thermal System That Apple Says You'll Rarely Need Thanks to Apple Silicon


The new 14-inch and 16-inch MacBook Pros include entirely new designs and a new chassis, and one improvement of the newer chassis compared to its...




www.macrumors.com





Who knows!

I'm most curious about the "studio-grade" mics. Obviously they're not going to replace real studio-grade recording chains, but they might have some real musical applications.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I just saw this a couple of minutes ago:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New MacBook Pros Include Improved Thermal System That Apple Says You'll Rarely Need Thanks to Apple Silicon
> 
> 
> The new 14-inch and 16-inch MacBook Pros include entirely new designs and a new chassis, and one improvement of the newer chassis compared to its...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macrumors.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who knows!
> 
> I'm most curious about the "studio-grade" mics. Obviously they're not going to replace real studio-grade recording chains, but they might have some real musical applications.


I’d hope so.🤞
A badly coded web page causes the fan on my 2019 MbP to whir into life. 

How many of us have been on the Apple site today, speccing up a fantasy system? <raises hand>


----------



## rnb_2

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I just saw this a couple of minutes ago:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New MacBook Pros Include Improved Thermal System That Apple Says You'll Rarely Need Thanks to Apple Silicon
> 
> 
> The new 14-inch and 16-inch MacBook Pros include entirely new designs and a new chassis, and one improvement of the newer chassis compared to its...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macrumors.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who knows!
> 
> I'm most curious about the "studio-grade" mics. Obviously they're not going to replace real studio-grade recording chains, but they might have some real musical applications.


This is certainly one of the benefits of all that integration - fewer components leads to a smaller logic board, which leads to more space for cooling and/or battery. It's hard to look at the cooling system in the new MacBook Pros and not think of the very similar system in the iMac Pro: dual low-RPM fans, the way the air is routed through the system, etc.


----------



## rnb_2

Nico5 said:


> Your point about highly integrated products effectively being a waste of money for many use cases is really valid.
> 
> With the new M1 Pro and Max there's also this very high end graphics capability you have to get, even if you just want the additional RAM. This is super useful for those music makers who have taken to making YouTube videos, but for those that work just in sound, that super graphics capability will probably not be fully used.


Good point, though the integration also means that those unavoidable extra charges aren't that big, in absolute terms. If you need 64GB, the difference between the "full" M1 Pro and the 24-core GPU M1 Max is only $200 ($300 vs the 14-core GPU version of the Pro). So, while the cost to upgrade RAM from 32GB to 64GB is surprisingly small (it's the same upcharge as going from 16 to 32), there is a somewhat-hidden $200-300 extra to upgrade to the M1 Max to make the RAM available. 

For music, I think there are two sweet spots, depending on how much RAM you need: the 10-core CPU/14-core GPU M1 Pro config, or the 10-core CPU/24-core GPU M1 Max. The savings aren't huge vs. the top end configurations - $100 on the Pro, $200 on the Max - but that can still be put toward more storage or RAM. The M1 Max does have other benefits - primarily memory bandwidth - but we'll need to see some fairly granular benchmarks to know whether the increased price is worthwhile. For my photo and video work, upgrading to the 24-core Max but keeping the RAM at 32GB is probably justified, but quite possibly not for strictly music work.

If you want the full 10-core CPU but don't need the GPU, the difference in cost between a 32GB setup and 64GB setup is $700, which honestly seems pretty reasonable to me as a percentage of the full price of the machine.


----------



## hayvel

I wonder what the higher internal bandwidth of the pro/max means for the use of ram, especially regarding sample streaming. As I understand, the M1 already gets alot more out of 16 gb than x86 systems due to the fast interconnection of the internal components? Is this related?


----------



## Nico5

David Kudell said:


> Does anyone know if the Apple silicon architecture could eventually allow for having traditional RAM sticks in addition to the integrated On chip RAM? For an eventual Apple silicon Mac Pro, this would allow for adding the Ram we need for sample libraries, ie up to 1.5TB in the current 2019 Intel Mac Pro. In my mind it would work kind of like the hybrid drives that combined a ssd and a spinning hard drive, but for RAM.


I wonder if increasingly fast NVMe SSDs coupled with USB/Thunderbolt 4 wouldn't be fast enough for the sample library use case with some programming improvements by the makers of such sample players. i.e. the old "stream-from-disk" approach - except optimized for modern SSD and bus speeds rather than old spinning rust. If that's the case, it could reduce the need for RAM by quite a bit.


----------



## charlieclouser

mat1 said:


> Is the text sharp? MacBooks and iMacs are always very crisp.


Crisp enough for me, but I don't have any recent MacBooks to compare it to - until my m1max machine arrives next month anyway.

It does have a semi-matte screen, which lessens the crispness a bit. But I prefer matte screens as there's a lot of natural light and reflections in my room.


----------



## rnb_2

I'd also like to note that, contrary to what many of us were fearing, the RAM upgrade price on these is, for Apple, downright reasonable. The fear was that, with no expansion options combined with the whole "unified memory" angle, upgrading the RAM would be exorbitantly expensive, but it's actually completely in line with something like the 27" iMac: $400 to go from 16GB to 32, and another $400 to go from 32 to 64. While there is a mandatory GPU upgrade to factor into the latter, it's not crazy expensive, and the total is nothing like the $1000+ figures that might have been dancing around in our heads before the announcement.


----------



## davidson

rnb_2 said:


> I'd also like to note that, contrary to what many of us were fearing, the RAM upgrade price on these is, for Apple, downright reasonable. The fear was that, with no expansion options combined with the whole "unified memory" angle, upgrading the RAM would be exorbitantly expensive, but it's actually completely in line with something like the 27" iMac: $400 to go from 16GB to 32, and another $400 to go from 32 to 64. While there is a mandatory GPU upgrade to factor into the latter, it's not crazy expensive, and the total is nothing like the $1000+ figures that might have been dancing around in our heads before the announcement.


£800 on ram alone to upgrade from 16 to 64gb. That's exactly the $1,000 figure I'd been having nightmares about!


----------



## rnb_2

davidson said:


> £800 on ram alone to upgrade from 16 to 64gb. That's exactly the $1,000 figure I'd been having nightmares about!


Sorry, but the vagaries of Apple's currency conversion were beyond the scope of my fears. The UK has always suffered in this area, unfortunately.


----------



## marius_dm

So, I'm getting less trade-in money for my brand new M1 16GB MacBook Pro 13'' 1TB than I got for my noisy MBP 15" i7 2.6Ghz 16GB RAM 512GB SSD.

Offer higher trade-in value to "help" people adopt their new platform, then get your money back on the next upgrade cycle.

Well played Apple... well played...

EDIT: I do realize that they work with third party companies for the trade-ins. But I also think they capitalize on how well-received the first iteration was by adopting these new prices. Good for them I guess.


----------



## Nimrod7

I also brought a Pro Max, 64GB, 2TB but not for music, mostly for video editing / composting / post production.

I was hopping for Apple to release something with M1 that can be connected to the XDR Display and another 4K. This one fits well.

However I am worried about fan noise, I didn't had great experience in the past with MacBook, and the throttling was horrendous. 

Reviews will be available way before mine arrives, but anyhow if I notice any noise under stress I am going to return it and get the next iMac or Pro.

Shame that will be operated as a desktop, and I won't enjoy that lovely display.


----------



## rnb_2

marius_dm said:


> So, I'm getting less trade-in money for my brand new M1 16GB MacBook Pro 13'' 1TB than I got for my noisy MBP 15" i7 2.6Ghz 16GB RAM 512GB SSD.
> 
> Offer higher trade-in value to "help" people adopt their new platform, then get your money back on the next upgrade cycle.
> 
> Well played Apple... well played...
> 
> EDIT: I do realize that they work with third party companies for the trade-ins. But I also think they capitalize on how well-received the first iteration was by adopting these new prices. Good for them I guess.


I think this is just a function of the higher retail price of your 15" - that was probably a ~$2600 config when new, while the M1 is about $1900. That said, trade-in prices on the M1s are not great - I'd get about 60% of the new price of my M1 mini back in trade, and less than half of the new cost of my M1 MacBook Air.


----------



## Technostica

Given how power efficient the platform is, you are going to get a lot more performance for the same noise level than with an Intel platform. 
One issue may be that the power density is high due to the fabrication node used, which may make cooling more difficult. 
That depends to a degree on the layout of the SoC. 
It has to be a big improvement over Intel though.


----------



## samphony

As Charlie i went full on with the 16“ 64GB 8TB SSD and am looking forward going back to a hybrid workspace. Meaning starting cues and ideas or even full tracks at home under the shower 😂 and once in the studio connecting one thunderbolt cable and be connected with 4 screens + mac mini vep machines and pt stem system if needed. 

Crazy times we are living in.


----------



## Nico5

Nimrod7 said:


> mostly for video editing / *composting */ post production.


I would like to take this opportunity to commend you for being so environmentally responsible that you're composting your videos rather than just to trash them.


----------



## Pier

M1 Max Geekbench *CPU* scores:





__





MacBookPro18,2 - Geekbench Browser


Benchmark results for a MacBookPro18,2 with an Apple M1 Max processor.



browser.geekbench.com





Single core: 1783
Multi core: 12693

Single core performance is comparable to the best in the whole CPU market:







Multicore performance is comparable to a freaking AMD Threadripper:








But let's not forget this is a *laptop* chip!

This thing is a beast.


----------



## Technostica

As I deduced based on Apple's figures, that's in between the 8 and 12 core Ryzen 9 5000 series desktop chips. 
They will consume around 125w when pushed and lack integrated graphics. 
They cost between £350 - £450. 
Not bad for a laptop chip.


----------



## marius_dm

Pier said:


> M1 Max Geekbench *CPU* scores:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MacBookPro18,2 - Geekbench Browser
> 
> 
> Benchmark results for a MacBookPro18,2 with an Apple M1 Max processor.
> 
> 
> 
> browser.geekbench.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Single core: 1783
> Multi core: 12693
> 
> Single core performance is comparable to the best in the whole CPU market:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Multicore performance is comparable to a freaking AMD Threadripper:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But let's not forget this is a *laptop* chip!
> 
> This thing is a beast.


Seems like single core performance is pretty much the same as the 13” M1 MBP.


----------



## Pier

There are still no proper *GPU* benchmarks, but here's an OpenCL benchmark comparing the M1 Max vs a desktop RTX3090 (the most powerful desktop GPU at the moment).





__





MacBookPro18,2 vs Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-7C84 - Geekbench Browser






browser.geekbench.com





The 3090 is only 29% faster than the M1 in terms of RAW performance.

In terms of perf per watt obviously the M1 destroys the 3090.

Super impressive for a laptop GPU.

Edit:

NO NO NO.

The M1 is only 29% of the 3090!


----------



## khollister

Pier said:


> There are still no proper *GPU* benchmarks, but here's an OpenCL benchmark comparing the M1 Max vs a desktop RTX3090 (the most powerful desktop GPU at the moment).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MacBookPro18,2 vs Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-7C84 - Geekbench Browser
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> browser.geekbench.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 3090 is only 29% faster than the M1 in terms of RAW performance.
> 
> In terms of perf per watt obviously the M1 destroys the 3090.
> 
> Super impressive for a laptop GPU.


I think you are reading that wrong - the M1 is 29% of the RTX. About 60k for the M1 vs 200k for the RTX


----------



## rnb_2

marius_dm said:


> Seems like single core performance is pretty much the same as the 13” M1 MBP.


I expect that the cores are very similar, and probably running at similar, if not identical, clock speeds. M2, based on the work for the A15, will see a clock boost and optimizations to give a likely 10-20% boost per core.

Since they still seem committed to their 2-year rollout, we'll see the bigger iMac (either with a larger screen, or a 27" miniLED display) and the replacement for the high end Mac mini in the Spring of 2022 (both running M1 Pro/Max), and Mac Pro around this time next year, running 20-40 performance cores and 64-128 GPU cores, but still based on M1. It will be interesting to see if we're looking at a roughly 18-month cadence on the M series, putting the M2 Pro and Max in line for a Spring/Summer 2023 release (maybe for WWDC '23?).


----------



## Pier

khollister said:


> I think you are reading that wrong - the M1 is 29% of the RTX. About 60k for the M1 vs 200k for the RTX


LOL you're right.

I'm a dumbass.


----------



## rnb_2

Pier said:


> LOL you're right.
> 
> I'm a dumbass.


Don't be too hard on yourself - the way they labeled it as "Difference" was not as clear as it should have been.


----------



## Nimrod7

Nico5 said:


> I would like to take this opportunity to commend you for being so environmentally responsible that you're composting your videos rather than just to trash them.


I can now proudly claim in my CV that I am a composter!


----------



## tmhuud

Nimrod7 said:


> I can now proudly claim in my CV that I am a composter!


What is that? A guy who delivers compost or an imposter composer?

Are you two stages or one?





__





Robot or human?






www.walmart.com


----------



## RSK

Alex Fraser said:


> He has a point though.
> 
> The biggest question mark left is the cooling, both in turns of potential throttling and..well…not sounding like a hoover.


It's the biggest reason I'm holding off for now.


----------



## benwiggy

Alex Fraser said:


> He has a point though.
> 
> The biggest question mark left is the cooling, both in turns of potential throttling and..well…not sounding like a hoover.


I don't think there's going to be any danger there. The whole problem with Intel, from Apple's point of view, was the excessive heat, and the first batch of M1s showed how well these things perform. The new chassis (chassises?) are bigger than the 13" MBP, and they made a feature of increased air circulation in the presentation.

(Ironically, it was the PPC chip's excessive heat output that led Apple to move to Intel.)


----------



## khollister

RSK said:


> It's the biggest reason I'm holding off for now.


It's also about the only reason I may cancel/return my 16" order too. I think we can be hopeful and realistic about this:

1) There is no doubt the fans will run (and likely be at least slightly audible) with prolonged loads that include the GPU cores being slammed - basic physics. However, if the power management is decent, typical music usage will not get to that scenario due to the GPU cores loafing along.

2) Apple is acutely aware of the expectations set by the M1's given the emphasis on the design of the cooling. While I believe the fans will run in most high power scenarios, I also expect they may not be very audible unless you are bit mining or trying to use the laptop as a render node. Even in that scenario, I expect the noise level to be quite a bit less than the Intel laptops.

3) Apple has a lot of experience with the "big and slow" cooling approach from the iMac Pro and 7.1 Mac Pros. 

4) In all of my Logic and Cubase stress testing with my iMP, I don't recall ever seeing the actual CPU loading (via iStat or Activity Monitor, not the DAW CPU meter) being above 70-75% across all cores when the DAW falls over. When you inevitably read about thermal throttling and/or fan noise with these from the Youtube usual suspects (with video workloads), don't assume that will translate to our experience with DAW workflow.

The other interesting tidbit I saw on a YT channel was that the 16" Max is a couple ounces heavier than the Pro. The 14" Max is listed as exactly the same weight as the Pro, all according to Apple's specs. That leads one to wonder if Apple took advantage of the increased volume to tweak the cooling on the Max. It is also puzzling to me why they would even bother with 2 cooling configurations to begin with. There will likely be teardowns that make all this clear before my order is even shipped.

I would shocked if these laptops weren't an order of magnitude or 2 better than the Intel versions from a noise/heat perspective. I would be equally shocked if they were completely passive (no fans running at all) and at ambient temp during typical DAW workflows like the M1's often are.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Completely anecdotal, but my 2019 MbB doesn’t get too toasty during prolonged periods of high load. It’s sudden increases in CPU demand that cause the fans to spin up, almost in “anticipation” of a quick rise in temps.

This fooled me a little when it was new. First thing I did was to open some previous projects to test noise levels on playback, and was fairly pleased. 

Then I started to actually work..

(Weirdly, when using the latest version of Logic, the fans seem quieter. I know Apple have done some performance ops on DMD which I use frequently…) 🤷


----------



## hayvel

I am undecided, what upgrade to the base model would you say is least important for a DAW focused rig (doing a variety of styles including orchestral), or what is an absolute must have?
- going from 8 to 10 cores
- going from 512gb to 1tb ssd (using an external sample drive in any case)
- upgrading to 32gb ram

I would love to get all of them, but the M1 pro 14" base model is already a huge investment for me, so I think I will have to cut corners somewhere. On the other hand, I would like this to last for the next 5 years, so...


----------



## khollister

hayvel said:


> I am undecided, what upgrade to the base model would you say is least important for a DAW focused rig (doing a variety of styles including orchestral), or what is an absolute must have?
> - going from 8 to 10 cores
> - going from 512gb to 1tb ssd (using an external sample drive in any case)
> - upgrading to 32gb ram
> 
> I would love to get all of them, but the M1 pro 14" base model is already a huge investment for me, so I think I will have to cut corners somewhere. On the other hand, I would like this to last for the next 5 years, so...


I think the 32GB is the primary upgrade, probably followed by the CPU then the SSD. Whether 512 is enough depends on your usage. Unless you keep your home directory pretty slimmed down, it might get tight considering you don't want to run it at 90% capacity due to write wear leveling.


----------



## Technostica

The extra CPU cores should offer about 30% more performance. 
The base version is roughly equivalent to the current 8 core AMD desktop chip, which is enough for many. 
If buying for long term usage, I would find it very tempting to upgrade the CPU to 10 cores.


----------



## Eloy




----------



## SuperD

I think the sweet spot for smaller budget, music-focused work is the 16" 10-core, 32GB, 1TB. I'm about ready to order and replace my trusty old maxed-out mid-2014 MBP... but am tempted to hold on just a little bit longer for the 2022 Q1 iMac.


----------



## rnb_2

khollister said:


> I think the 32GB is the primary upgrade, probably followed by the CPU then the SSD. Whether 512 is enough depends on your usage. Unless you keep your home directory pretty slimmed down, it might get tight considering you don't want to run it at 90% capacity due to write wear leveling.


This would be the order I'd look at things, as well. 

1) The RAM can't be changed after purchase and is the primary reason to look at M1 Pro vs M1
2) The CPU can't be changed after purchase, and that 8-core chip is only going to give you ~35% boost over M1 - welcome, but not huge
3) Especially in this market, you're going to be looking at external storage unless you're prepared to spend a lot on internal storage (I couldn't think of it below 4TB, and I don't have any of the truly huge VIs). I have 512GB internal in both my M1 mini and M1 Air, and I've managed to stay around 100GB free on both without doing anything crazy.

So, I would look at the middle M1 Pro (with the 14 GPU cores), bump the RAM to 32GB, and then upgrade the SSD if the budget allows.


----------



## hayvel

Thank you for the advice guys, sounds perfectly reasonable.


----------



## marius_dm

I’ll probably stay with the 13” M1 MBP for what I do, but I am tempted by the 14'' M1Max 24core GPU, 32GB, 1TB one at ~$3k


----------



## rnb_2

marius_dm said:


> I’ll probably stay with the 13” M1 MBP for what I do, but I am tempted by the 14'' M1Max 24core GPU, 32GB, 1TB one at ~$3k


If I was buying today, that would likely be my choice, as well. Still hoping to hold out for whatever desktop gets the M1 Pro/Max early next year.


----------



## Pier

According to MacRumors the 16 MBP with the M1 Max will feature a high power mode, for intensive sustained tasks (eg: video encoding, rendering, etc).









New 16-Inch MacBook Pro With M1 Max to Feature High Power Mode for Intensive Workloads


The new 16-inch MacBook Pro with the M1 Max Apple Silicon chip will feature a new High Power Mode for intensive, sustained workloads, according to...




www.macrumors.com


----------



## rnb_2

I'm sure there are some who would like to have known this before ordering...


----------



## Nico5

rnb_2 said:


> I'm sure there are some who would like to have known this before ordering...


Maybe that's why some people wait for a little while with their orders until more information and real world experience is more widely available.


----------



## khollister

Pier said:


> According to MacRumors the 16 MBP with the M1 Max will feature a high power mode, for intensive sustained tasks (eg: video encoding, rendering, etc).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New 16-Inch MacBook Pro With M1 Max to Feature High Power Mode for Intensive Workloads
> 
> 
> The new 16-inch MacBook Pro with the M1 Max Apple Silicon chip will feature a new High Power Mode for intensive, sustained workloads, according to...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macrumors.com


This confirms a few things to me:

1) The cooling capacity on the 16 is greater than the 14

2) There will be some throttling eventually for extreme use cases

3) They are probably going to be pretty quiet in normal use and Apple is sensitive to the noise issue


----------



## Loïc D

I’m utterly interested in these machines but I’ll wait for reviews first and probably buy one in Dec or Jan, not sure which model yet.

Manwhile I’ll just train with iCloth.


----------



## RSK

khollister said:


> While I believe the fans will run in most high power scenarios, I also expect they may not be very audible unless you are bit mining or trying to use the laptop as a render node.


Why in God's name would anyone try bit mining with a laptop instead of one of those purpose-built units with a crazy amount of GPUs crammed in it?


----------



## Nico5

Maybe I've missed it, but has anyone shared their experience around how an M1 based Mac fares with *modeled *instruments (i.e. not sample based)?

And in light of the order of magnitute increased GPU capability of the M1 Pro and Max, I can't help but wonder, if the GPU's can be utilized by modeling music software. And if that might be interesting to such modeled instrument and fx software makers.

GPU's being really baked into the Apple Silicon architecture- at least theoretically - provides a more reliable target platform for Apple software developers. So I wonder, will some digital signal processing currently being done in CPU potentially be moved to the GPU? Or is some of it there already?

At the very least, the increased GPU power in the new Macs would seem to encourage the trend towards all kinds of visual magic in audio software.


----------



## Technostica

Nico5 said:


> Maybe I've missed it, but has anyone shared their experience around how an M1 based Mac fares with *modeled *instruments (i.e. not sample based)?
> 
> And in light of the order of magnitute increased GPU capability of the M1 Pro and Max, I can't help but wonder, if the GPU's can be utilized by modeling music software. And if that might be interesting to such modeled instrument and fx software makers.
> 
> GPU's being really baked into the Apple Silicon architecture- at least theoretically - provides a more reliable target platform for Apple software developers. So I wonder, will some digital signal processing currently being done in CPU potentially be moved to the GPU? Or is some of it there already?


The issue with GPUs is that under the hood they consist of thousands of basic cores. 
Great for highly parallel workloads, but not sure how useful they are for audio. 
I wonder what can be done with the neural engine?


----------



## ism

Nico5 said:


> And in light of the order of magnitute increased GPU capability of the M1 Pro and Max, I can't help but wonder, if the GPU's can be utilized by modeling music software. And if that might be interesting to such modeled instrument and fx software makers.


Even more interesting, I would think, would be if the neuromophic cores might have application in music. As I understand it, they they do massively parallel amounts of (mostly) linear algebra. Which sounds, in principle at least, like it might be useful in, maybe, Fourier analysis, additive synthesis, or some such.


----------



## Nico5

additional info trickling out: 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2021/10/21/apple-macbook-pro-fast-charger-sd-card-slow/


----------



## khollister

Nico5 said:


> additional info trickling out:
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2021/10/21/apple-macbook-pro-fast-charger-sd-card-slow/


i think the charger info is wrong - I have seen on several YT channels that the 96W charger is the fast charger for the 14” (smaller battery). The larger 100WH battery in the 16 needs the bigger charger, which is included.

The HDMI and SD info is old news. The Forbes article is pretty snarky.


----------



## Nico5

khollister said:


> The HDMI and SD info is old news


did I miss it in this thread? If yes, I'm very sorry.


----------



## rnb_2

khollister said:


> i think the charger info is wrong - I have seen on several YT channels that the 96W charger is the fast charger for the 14” (smaller battery). The larger 100WH battery in the 16 needs the bigger charger, which is included.
> 
> The HDMI and SD info is old news. The Forbes article is pretty snarky.


That's the "Forbes Contributor Network" for you - they're bloggers who are paid by Forbes based on traffic, so they have a tendency to be click-baity.

He's definitely wrong about the "no fast charging unless you buy the biggest charger" - only the base 8-core Pro 14-inch has the charger that doesn't support fast charging, and you can upgrade to the better charger for $20 (which makes me think that they are charging a nominal fee to those who want the faster charger more than the smaller charger).

The HDMI port is disappointing, but here's the thing about the "scandal" of having a UHS-II card reader: there are basically *no* UHS-III SD cards. I haven't found one at either of the biggest photo/video dealers in NYC, and there isn't an SD card that has read speeds over 300MB/s (just shy of the 312MB/s maximum transfer speed in the UHS-II spec). I saw the headlines today about UHS-III and checked my fast SD cards, and they're all UHS-II.

*EDIT*: other sources say that the card reader on the MacBook Pro will only support up to 250MB/s, so a bit short of the maximum for the UHS-II spec.

I don't know how I'm going to deal with this avalanche of Bad News about the MacBook Pros!


----------



## Tronam

My M1 MBP hasn’t ever throttled and I’ve only heard the fans spin up twice over the past 10 months, both after 20 minutes or so of playing World of Warcraft. I have yet to see apps like DAWs which don’t stress the GPU cores get the fans to spin up, at least not audibly, so I seriously doubt loud fan noise or thermal throttling will be an issue with these new systems. These are 5nm SoCs, not 14nm Intel processors paired with discrete GPUs consuming 2-3x the power.


----------



## Nico5

rnb_2 said:


> That's the "Forbes Contributor Network" for you


I only bumped into the article via the Apple News app on iOS.

So it would seem a case of an Apple curated app serving low quality articles about Apple.


----------



## rnb_2

Right Hand: Hey, Left Hand! What are you doing?

Left Hand: None of your business!


----------



## SvenE

I have to wait another 8 weeks before the 16" MBP Max will become available in my market (Thailand). The good thing is that I can wait for first real-life tests before I will configure the order. 8 weeks is a long time to wait knowing that this machine now finally exists.... So far I am looking at the 16" MPB M1 Max 64GB, 4TB SSD.


----------



## Tronam

SvenE said:


> I have to wait another 8 weeks before the 16" MBP Max will become available in my market (Thailand). The good thing is that I can wait for first real-life tests before I will configure the order. 8 weeks is a long time to wait knowing that this machine now finally exists.... So far I am looking at the 16" MPB M1 Max 64GB, 4TB SSD.


I'm in a similar situation and must wait until January. That should allow plenty of time to get enough real-world feedback from other users about them. I was leaning toward the 64GB configuration too, but if the memory bandwidth and SSDs are as fast as they say that might be overkill for my needs. I am very curious to see all the various stress testing people will put them through over the next few weeks. The only problem tends to be the heavy video editing bias, so music production representation is a bit more limited.


----------



## Crystaudio

Hi all, checking out the 16" models and I see the difference in upgrade in cores are mainly between a 16 core GPU and 32 core GPU. The CPU is the same across all models at 10 cores CPU. All also sport 16 neural cores. Does the amount of GPUs affect music production (I am using Logic Pro X)? Cause if they are not contributing to plugins/loading vsts/realtime playback of vsts, we should just look at the CPU and the neural cores right?

Lastly, how much free space should be left on an SSD for the health of the disk? I work with mainly pop productions but also started to do some film/trailer stuff. So for ease, I would like to probably keep 2-3 synths, drums, two complete orchestra vsts on the ssd in the macbook pro without having to carry an additional ssd around. I also wish to work without freezing or bouncing tracks so just pure streaming from vsts. I'll be calculating the space I need but probably could use your expert advice on the space required for the SSD not to be too worn out with use or required for buffering etc.

Little more info: 2TB would just about squeeze all of these in but it would be tight like probably 100gb left after squeezing it in. I use about just 3.45tb for all my available ones and kinda have held off buying others due to considerations of space but probably should after advice. Would it be better keeping to 1tb and just unload all projects and vsts to another and just maybe make do with stock instruments on the go? It is very true that any major trailer composition I do is back in the home office with speakers and an audio device, however I have had to bounce rough mixes for clients to practice or as a guide. Would love to hear from those doing trailer music work esp.

So the qns:
1) Would the 10 core 24 GPU m1max be the best choice for a 16" macbookpro. (was considering waiting but I would still need a machine on the go for recording.)

2) How much free space would be required for good SSD health (frequent saving, copy of projects).

3) Thoughts of just the convenience of having everything on the macbook pro 16" vs having multiple SSDs. (is this worth the price difference - money which could otherwise mean another full orchestra/full drum kits etc)

These are quite a bit but could really use the thoughts you pros have! This is gonna be a big investment but necessary for sanity for work. My current one is spluttering and just blanking out from time to time and is causing me a little stress and frustration.


----------



## khollister

Nico5 said:


> did I miss it in this thread? If yes, I'm very sorry.


No, no - it was posted on MacRumors earlier (which is where the guy at Forbes got it I'm sure). You're good


----------



## khollister

Crystaudio said:


> 1) Would the 10 core 24 GPU m1max be the best choice for a 16" macbookpro. (was considering waiting but I would still need a machine on the go for recording.)
> 
> 2) How much free space would be required for good SSD health (frequent saving, copy of projects).
> 
> 3) Thoughts of just the convenience of having everything on the macbook pro 16" vs having multiple SSDs. (is this worth the price difference - money which could otherwise mean another full orchestra/full drum kits etc)
> 
> These are quite a bit but could really use the thoughts you pros have! This is gonna be a big investment but necessary for sanity for work. My current one is spluttering and just blanking out from time to time and is causing me a little stress and frustration.


1) If you want a Max to be able to go to 64GB, then yes, that is the cheapest way to get there. However the cost delta is minimal and it is not at all clear the lesser number of GPU cores is a power issue since, I believe, Apple uses clock gating to effectively turn off stuff not being used. 

2) 20% is the usual rule of thumb, but I can't quote a definitive study at the moment. 

3) If you are actually going mobile, having as much as possible inboard is great. The other thing to be aware of is while the upgrade costs for the internal SSD are large, it actually isn't a completely unreasonable price considering the performance of the new drives. If you duplicated this with PCIe 4 MLC blades in a PC or Mac Pro, you would be looking at pretty big numbers too. If you are looking to park things on there that can leverage the speed (e.g. video) it's not a bad deal. Most sample libraries won't benefit hugely due to player limitations (VSL Synchron players seem to take advantage of speed). 

Related to (3) is the fact that the M1 machines had less than stellar USB 3.2 performance (TB was fine). It will be interesting to see if that has been addressed in the new ones.


----------



## khollister

Tronam said:


> I'm in a similar situation and must wait until January. That should allow plenty of time to get enough real-world feedback from other users about them. I was leaning toward the 64GB configuration too, but if the memory bandwidth and SSDs are as fast as they say that might be overkill for my needs. I am very curious to see all the various stress testing people will put them through over the next few weeks. The only problem tends to be the heavy video editing bias, so music production representation is a bit more limited.


I would be very careful about this whole "32GB is the new 64GB" thing. Yes, swapping is less of a boat anchor due to the internal SSD speed among other things, but it's still swapping and really piling write cycles on the SSD which will eventually affect the life of those SSD's. This has been debated in depth here and other places with the general concensus that there is nothing magical about Apple Silicon and RAM use.

My personal advice is to go for 64GB if you have a workflow that uses large numbers of tracks with sample based VI's and you don't want to freeze/bounce.

Be aware of the audience on sites/forums that recommend 16-32GB for music. Most of those communities (like Gearspace) are pop/dance/hip-hop composers/producers that do not rely on high track count of sampled orchestral instruments like most here at VI-control.


----------



## mat1

khollister said:


> Yes, swapping is less of a boat anchor due to the internal SSD speed among other things, but it's still swapping and really piling write cycles on the SSD which will eventually affect the life of those SSD's.


Is there any actual evidence that those write cycles are killing SSDs within their normal working life? From what I've read this ended up being a non-issue once people did the calculations


----------



## khollister

mat1 said:


> Is there any actual evidence that those write cycles are killing SSDs within their normal working life? From what I've read this ended up being a non-issue once people did the calculations


There is a huge thread over on MacRumors somewhere with folks posting bytes written reported by MacOS and comparing that to the typical specs for similar SSD's. As I recall there were folks with huge write volumes (many times the SSD size) in only a couple months.

I quit following it since it didn't apply to me (I wasn't trying to use a 64GB workflow on a 16GB machine and my bytes written were low as a result).


----------



## hayvel

I thought that the high internal data transfer speeds allow for a much lower ram footprint in sample playback, because a bigger part of a sample can be streamed directly from 'disc', allowing for a smaller part being held in the ram? Or is this not the case in real world scenarios? That would increase how many instruments you can effectively use with x amount of ram. 

Of course, more ram is always good... 🙃


----------



## RSK

khollister said:


> There is a huge thread over on MacRumors somewhere with folks posting bytes written reported by MacOS and comparing that to the typical specs for similar SSD's. As I recall there were folks with huge write volumes (many times the SSD size) in only a couple months.


No disrespect, but that isn't what he asked. Write volumes will unboudtedly be larger on a system with less RAM, but what he wanted to know is if there is any empirical evidence that this is a bad thing.


----------



## khollister

RSK said:


> No disrespect, but that isn't what he asked. Write volumes will unboudtedly be larger on a system with less RAM, but what he wanted to know is if there is any empirical evidence that this is a bad thing.


no disrespect either, but how do you expect empirical evidence (as in "my SSD is dead") on a platform that is only a year old? What we are probably talking about is a useful lifespan of 2-3 years vs 10-15. The typical manufacturer specs are pretty clear for similar SSD's, so a projection based on short term patterns isn't unreasonable from an engineering standpoint. I'm not aware of anyone actually doing destructive test-to-failure evaluations.


----------



## RSK

hayvel said:


> I thought that the high internal data transfer speeds allow for a much lower ram footprint in sample playback, because a bigger part of a sample can be streamed directly from 'disc', allowing for a smaller part being held in the ram? Or is this not the case in real world scenarios? That would increase how many instruments you can effectively use with x amount of ram.
> 
> Of course, more ram is always good... 🙃


I can tell you from experience that having the RAM and SSD on the same chip as the processors provides a huge performance boost, and that the performance of my M1 MacBook Air easily exceeds both the previous generation MacBook Air and a Mac Mini with 64G of RAM. The real question is whether all the write cycles involved will slowly kill your SSD. I have read a study that would seem to indicate that it does, but unfortunately that was with a different kind of SSD than the Mac uses.

In the absense of empirical data on the subject, khollister is correct to advise caution.


----------



## Loïc D

khollister said:


> There is a huge thread over on MacRumors somewhere with folks posting bytes written reported by MacOS and comparing that to the typical specs for similar SSD's. As I recall there were folks with huge write volumes (many times the SSD size) in only a couple months.


IIRC, it was acknowledged by Apple and was only a bug in the write volume calculations which was fixed.
Sorry, I don’t have the source.


----------



## RSK

khollister said:


> no disrespect either, but how do you expect empirical evidence (as in "my SSD is dead") on a platform that is only a year old? What we are probably talking about is a useful lifespan of 2-3 years vs 10-15. The typical manufacturer specs are pretty clear for similar SSD's, so a projection based on short term patterns isn't unreasonable from an engineering standpoint. I'm not aware of anyone actually doing destructive test-to-failure evaluations.


I wouldn't expect a laptop to have a useful lifespan of 10-15 years.


----------



## khollister

hayvel said:


> I thought that the high internal data transfer speeds allow for a much lower ram footprint in sample playback, because a bigger part of a sample can be streamed directly from 'disc', allowing for a smaller part being held in the ram? Or is this not the case in real world scenarios? That would increase how many instruments you can effectively use with x amount of ram.
> 
> Of course, more ram is always good... 🙃


That is certainly true, but I think we have been there for a while with SSD's. The problem with "how much RAM do I need?" questions is everyone's workflow is very different. I know from personal experience that 16GB goes pretty quick on my M1, even with preload cranked down. As far as 32 vs 64, that is a lot harder. What I do know is an awful lot of folks here view 64GB as a starting point based on their workflows. Sure the new M1Pro and Max have state of the art SSD's, but given the performance of sample players in general (I'm looking at you Kontakt), it's not clear how much that adds to the equation here.

Frankly, most of us have huge sample libraries and everything doesn't even fit on the 8TB internal option. The cost of going from 32 to 64 is $600 (both the RAM and the required upgrade to the minimum Max SOC). My opinion is that $600 as insurance against something that can't be "fixed" later on what is likely going to be a $3500+ machine anyway is a smart move. YMMV

As an example, I went to the 8TB option because I wanted to have all my VSL Synchron libraries (pianos and orchestral) and EW OPUS internal, so the RAM cost was not a major cost driver.


----------



## khollister

Loïc D said:


> IIRC, it was acknowledged by Apple and was only a bug in the write volume calculations which was fixed.
> Sorry, I don’t have the source.


Really? Cool - I guess I need to revisit this, even though it isn't applicable to me personally


----------



## hayvel

RSK said:


> I can tell you from experience that having the RAM and SSD on the same chip as the processors provides a huge performance boost, and that the performance of my M1 MacBook Air easily exceeds both the previous generation MacBook Air and a Mac Mini with 64G of RAM. The real question is whether all the write cycles involved will slowly kill your SSD. I have read a study that would seem to indicate that it does, but unfortunately that was with a different kind of SSD than the Mac uses.
> 
> In the absense of empirical data on the subject, khollister is correct to advise caution.


That is reassuring, thank you for sharing your experience. 

I was however not trying to discuss memory swap, but simply streaming from SSD and having only very small parts of the samples in the actual ram, so not using the ssd for ram/write duties.


----------



## khollister

Found this: 

The answer is slightly fuzzy - seems to be an edge case for most. However, if you routinely drive the memory pressure metric into the red by loading 32GB of samples into 16GB of RAM, bad things will probably happed sooner than if that was an occasional thing.


----------



## khollister

hayvel said:


> That is reassuring, thank you for sharing your experience.
> 
> I was however not trying to discuss memory swap, but simply streaming from SSD and having only very small parts of the samples in the actual ram, so not using the ssd for ram/write duties.


I have lost the thread links, but there were a few people here tha did quite a bit of testing with M1 minis and concluded the 16GB limit was unworkable for them, in spite of the machine performing way better than should be expected.

Of course, that doesn't answer the 32 vs 64 question, and we frankly won't have an answer rooted in actual experience until some folks who ordered a 32GB Pro/Max weigh in here.


----------



## RSK

hayvel said:


> That is reassuring, thank you for sharing your experience.
> 
> I was however not trying to discuss memory swap, but simply streaming from SSD and having only very small parts of the samples in the actual ram, so not using the ssd for ram/write duties.


The only question regarding SSDs has to do with the possible damage of constant writing, not reading. If you set the buffers as low as possible on Kontakt and mostly stream from the SSD you should be fine (assuming the amount of the buffers doesn't exceed the RAM).


----------



## RSK

khollister said:


> Of course, that doesn't answer the 32 vs 64 question, and we frankly won't have an answer rooted in actual experience until some folks who ordered a 32GB Pro/Max weigh in here.


Like you, I plan to avoid the issue altogether and get 64G. The 16G M1 has exceeded expectations, but when spending $4000 on a new machine, why risk it?

This will also allow the consolidation of the MacBook and Mac Mini into a single, mobile platform.


----------



## khollister

RSK said:


> Like you, I plan to avoid the issue altogether and get 64G. The 16G M1 has exceeded expectations, but when spending $4000 on a new machine, why risk it?
> 
> This will also allow the consolidation of the MacBook and Mac Mini into a single, mobile platform.


Yup - my justification of this (rather than waiting on a "super Mini or Mac Pro Lite) was replacing my iMac Pro and 13" M1 for photography and music. I plan to keep my 13 M1 for couch surfing and travel where mobility is key and I don't need the music kit

Keeping 2 machines sync'ed and updated is a real pain in the ass.


----------



## Sovereign

I caved, ordered the 14" Max version with 64GB and a 2TB drive. Delivery still three to four weeks away so should the reviews disappoint I could always cancel. Bit disappointing to read the 16" has a high performance option.


----------



## mat1

khollister said:


> I have lost the thread links, but there were a few people here tha did quite a bit of testing with M1 minis and concluded the 16GB limit was unworkable for them, in spite of the machine performing way better than should be expected.



The last thread I saw wasn't totally clear on what the limitations were. The SSDs this time around are twice the speed of older Macs so that should have an impact when using the lowest pre-loads.


----------



## Van

So with this new M1 (or M1 Max), do you think we’re at the point where storing libraries you’re currently using on a large project can be stored on the internal drive is going to be faster than say, usb Samsung T5’s (where all my libraries are at the moment), or is it still going to better/faster to keep them off the internal drive? Is it all speculation at this point or do we have a good idea yet?


----------



## mat1

Van said:


> So with this new M1 (or M1 Max), do you think we’re at the point where storing libraries you’re currently using on a large project can be stored on the internal drive is going to be faster than say, usb Samsung T5’s (where all my libraries are at the moment), or is it still going to better/faster to keep them off the internal drive? Is it all speculation at this point or do we have a good idea yet?


It's been that way for a while now (vs T5's). The new M1 SSDs are 10 times faster than the T5 on paper. 

Whether or not any of that translates to higher performance is another question. The tests are going to be very interesting when these land.


----------



## Van

mat1 said:


> It's been that way for a while now (vs T5's). The new M1 SSDs are 10 times faster than the T5 on paper.
> 
> Whether or not any of that translates to higher performance is another question. The tests are going to be very interesting when these land.


Thanks for the response - so you’ve got your sample libraries on your internal drive and not having any issues? Are you running decent sized templates? I’ve got mostly Spitfire and tend to use a lot of mics. I know getting those libraries off my 2014 2.8 with an arguably ‘fast' SSD and 16gb ram made a real difference. Would be great to know if we’re passed having to run external drives now. . .


----------



## Van

Interesting - ’16” _might_ have better cooling and maybe don’t immediately trust the benchmark scores.'


----------



## rnb_2

Van said:


> Interesting - ’16” _might_ have better cooling and maybe don’t immediately trust the benchmark scores.'



The 16" M1 Max probably does have something different in the cooling system, most likely to serve the special "High Power" mode. This would account for the 16" Max models being slightly heavier than the Pro models.


----------



## Pier

rnb_2 said:


> I'm sure there are some who would like to have known this before ordering...


True, but I don't think it's very relevant for music/audio.

Audio workloads are more sustained than bursts and rarely reach 100% of CPU which seems to be what this high power mode is targeted at.


----------



## rnb_2

Pier said:


> True, but I don't think it's very relevant for music/audio.
> 
> Audio workloads are more sustained than bursts and rarely reach 100% of CPU which seems to be what this high power mode is targeted at.


Oh, I didn't mean people *here* (unless they also do video and/or 3D work).


----------



## khollister

Van said:


> Interesting - ’16” _might_ have better cooling and maybe don’t immediately trust the benchmark scores.'



As far as the CPU scores, he seems to discount the extra 2 icestorm cores the M1 has (4+4 vs 8+2). That is likely part (not all) of the "missing" 30%.

I also am suspect of the charger capacity as the reason for Performance Mode not being in the 14" Max. 

The other thing to keep in mind if you are a video editor is the dedicated codec and ProRes engines in the Pro & Max. When it comes to rendering or importing ProRes, these things will probably smoke almost anything else.


----------



## rnb_2

khollister said:


> As far as the CPU scores, he seems to discount the extra 2 icestorm cores the M1 has (4+4 vs 8+2). That is likely part (not all) of the "missing" 30%.
> 
> I also am suspect of the charger capacity as the reason for Performance Mode not being in the 14" Max.
> 
> The other thing to keep in mind if you are a video editor is the dedicated codec and ProRes engines in the Pro & Max. When it comes to rendering or importing ProRes, these things will probably smoke almost anything else.


I haven't watched the video, but I'd be surprised if the lack of Performance Mode in the 14" was due to anything but cooling issues.

For ProRes workflows, these are going to be THE machines to have, even over a Mac Pro with an Afterburner.


----------



## mat1

Van said:


> Thanks for the response - so you’ve got your sample libraries on your internal drive and not having any issues? Are you running decent sized templates?


I don’t run a big template but I haven’t had an issue running everything internally. 

My new MBP will have everything on the internal. I think that is the way to go (budget permitting) with these new drives.


----------



## mat1

Pier said:


> Audio workloads are more sustained than bursts and rarely reach 100% of CPU which seems to be what this high power mode is targeted at.


Could be useful for offline processes maybe? Bouncing stems etc?


----------



## Pier

mat1 said:


> Could be useful for offline processes maybe? Bouncing stems etc?


Yeah, but realistically how much of your time is spent on that? 0.1%?

Rendering can be a real bottleneck for people doing video, 3d, motion graphics, etc.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

khollister said:


> 2) 20% is the usual rule of thumb, but I can't quote a definitive study at the moment.


I personally wouldn't spend $2400 for an 8TB drive (technically an additional 7.5TB) and then feel compelled to leave 1.6TB free!

This is just speculation, nothing to take as a fact, but you certainly want to leave some free space on a system drive to allow things to get written to it. But maybe 50GB should be enough, not 32 times that.


----------



## robgb

SupremeFist said:


> So... are we just not going to talk about The Notch?


I'm seriously not sure why anyone gives a shit about it.


----------



## khollister

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I personally wouldn't spend $2400 for an 8TB drive (technically an additional 7.5TB) and then feel compelled to leave 1.6TB free!
> 
> This is just speculation, nothing to take as a fact, but you certainly want to leave some free space on a system drive to allow things to get written to it. But maybe 50GB should be enough, not 32 times that.


I think 50GB might be a bit sporty, but you do have a point because a lot of that 8TB is going to be sample libraries with minimal write activity. I would probably be comfortable with 750GB - 1TB. I wonder what the Applecare policy is about SSD write cycle failure?


----------



## Nimrod7

The $2400 for 8TB is quite reasonable.

4 x Evo Pro = $1404 + $500 for a Raid Card = $1904.

And I bet the above can't fit on a laptop.


----------



## Soundhound

What kind of SSDs are in there? will there be aftermarket solutions to put in a third party drive? 8tb m.2 drives are $1400 or so, regular old 2.5 sata are about $800


----------



## Technostica

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I personally wouldn't spend $2400 for an 8TB drive (technically an additional 7.5TB) and then feel compelled to leave 1.6TB free!
> 
> This is just speculation, nothing to take as a fact, but you certainly want to leave some free space on a system drive to allow things to get written to it. But maybe 50GB should be enough, not 32 times that.


Yeah, you don't need to leave a fixed percentage of the drive free. 
The bigger the drive, the smaller the percentage you need to keep free. 
The larger the drive, the more endurance it has, so the longer it will take to reach its endurance limit. 
This assumes the same write level regardless of size.


----------



## khollister

Nimrod7 said:


> The $2400 for 8TB is quite reasonable.
> 
> 4 x Evo Pro = $1404 + $500 for a Raid Card = $1904.
> 
> And I bet the above can't fit on a laptop.


Actually, the 980 Pro is probably a better match - $1600 for 4 x 2TB


----------



## colony nofi

Soundhound said:


> What kind of SSDs are in there? will there be aftermarket solutions to put in a third party drive? 8tb m.2 drives are $1400 or so, regular old 2.5 sata are about $800


Unless I'm mistaken, there are still no 8Tb PCIE gen 4 drives out there... only a few months ago there was only 2 different 8TB models fullstop. These were gen 3 (I have one) and have significantly less performance than these mac drives.

The closest performance you can get with off the shelf stuff is 4 x samsung 980's but you are dealing with multiple drives then as they only come in 2TB max capacities.

The 980's are definitely incredible drives. And the internal drives by apple are equal (and possibly in write speeds) exceed these. Although they will need to be benchmarked across different block sizes to really see how they stack up. A single spec like "up to 8000MB/s" really doesn't mean a tonne on its own.


----------



## charlieclouser

Soundhound said:


> What kind of SSDs are in there? will there be aftermarket solutions to put in a third party drive? 8tb m.2 drives are $1400 or so, regular old 2.5 sata are about $800


There isn't a discrete SSD drive module inside the new MacBooks, so it can't be replaced or upgraded after purchase. 

There will not be any third-party or aftermarket way to change the capacity of the internal SSD. Speciry the one you want right off the bat, cause there ain't no upgrade path.

8tb FTW!

7,000 mb/sec is the quoted speed. Far faster than any m.2 blade, and *fourteen* (!!!) times faster than the SATA SSDs I'm using now....


----------



## Tronam

khollister said:


> Yup - my justification of this (rather than waiting on a "super Mini or Mac Pro Lite) was replacing my iMac Pro and 13" M1 for photography and music. I plan to keep my 13 M1 for couch surfing and travel where mobility is key and I don't need the music kit
> 
> Keeping 2 machines sync'ed and updated is a real pain in the ass.


It wasn’t until this past year with my iMac and Macbook that I fully understood how annoying it is trying to keep all my plugins, presets, channel strip settings, apps, settings and licenses updated and sync’d between them, not to mention backups. And the annoyance gets amplified using multiple DAWs. I'll be consolidating down to one "work" system as well.


----------



## CShorte

No one seems to be talking about the ‘elephant in the room’. Intel proccesss not ready for Apple Silicon.
what are your plans for AS based on having many, many Intel programs that have not been converted?

and, for those coming from a Intel based masculine, how do you plan to Load all of the apps and data that you will need onto the new machine? This is a great thread, full of information, thank you.


----------



## Technostica

charlieclouser said:


> 7,000 mb/sec is the quoted speed. Far faster than any m.2 blade, and *fourteen* (!!!) times faster than the SATA SSDs I'm using now....


PCs have been supporting PCIe 4.0 since 2019.
The first gen SSDs were up to about 5GB/s, but the subsequent gens jumped to up to 7.5GB/s.
PCIe 5.0 hits the desktop next month, with SSDs due next year pushing up to 15GB/s.

The initial drives were power hungry, so waiting to adopt is good as the tech matures and gets more efficient.
Clearly that is an issue in laptops where PCIe 4.0 adoption has lagged.
As the bandwidth gets higher, the need for improved latency can increase.
Apple are innovating so much at the hardware architecture level, that I wouldn't be surprised if they have excellent latency with the new storage also.
There will be tech sites doing deep dives on the finer points of the storage performance, which will give a good idea of what to expect in real world usage.


----------



## Pier

CShorte said:


> No one seems to be talking about the ‘elephant in the room’. Intel proccesss not ready for Apple Silicon.
> what are your plans for AS based on having many, many Intel programs that have not been converted?


That's what Rosetta 2 is for. It translates x86 instructions to ARM.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Technostica said:


> Yeah, you don't need to leave a fixed percentage of the drive free.
> The bigger the drive, the smaller the percentage you need to keep free.
> The larger the drive, the more endurance it has, so the longer it will take to reach its endurance limit.
> This assumes the same write level regardless of size.


And endurance is measured in years, right?

Nothing lasts forever. I buy stuff to use!


----------



## stonzthro

charlieclouser said:


> Ordered the most bricked-out one they have. 16" M1max, 64gb, 8tb. Says delivery is Nov 5-10.
> 
> Big bucks, yes, but this will be only the third laptop I've bought in 20 years. Core2duo 17", then my current 2012 matte-screen pre-retina i7, and finally M1max! 9 years of use on this one and still going strong, so I figure I'm getting my money's worth out of these machines.
> 
> And with an 8tb internal drive I can actually do meaningful music work on it with no external drives, and that will let me really evaluate Apple Silicon, Rosetta, Monterey, etc., and let me make a more educated decision about whether to splash for the final round of Intel Mac Pro or wait another year for an Apple Silicon pro machine.
> 
> Not sorry to say goodbye to Intel laptops - yes, my current one is old but it is an i7 and even some webpages make the fans kick on. We'll see if M1max changes this....


I'd really like to hear your feedback once you try it out - thinking the same thing here.


----------



## Audio Birdi

Patiently waiting for the potential M1 Max Mac Mini / whatever they do for a Mac Pro / Mac Pro Mini next.

Looking forward to seeing all real-world benchmarks of these new laptops though! On Windows at the moment but would love to switch it to a potential Mac Mini with just as much power as a Ryzen 3900 / 5800x potentially .

Had a MacBook Pro 17" 2010 model for a good 10 years which I'd recently sold. So seeing what happens before switching back to Mac at home, using macOS at work though currently.


----------



## Technostica

Nick Batzdorf said:


> And endurance is measured in years, right?


More like petabytes in some cases, which for many here will translate to decades.


----------



## Soundhound

colony nofi said:


> Unless I'm mistaken, there are still no 8Tb PCIE gen 4 drives out there... only a few months ago there was only 2 different 8TB models fullstop. These were gen 3 (I have one) and have significantly less performance than these mac drives.
> 
> The closest performance you can get with off the shelf stuff is 4 x samsung 980's but you are dealing with multiple drives then as they only come in 2TB max capacities.
> 
> The 980's are definitely incredible drives. And the internal drives by apple are equal (and possibly in write speeds) exceed these. Although they will need to be benchmarked across different block sizes to really see how they stack up. A single spec like "up to 8000MB/s" really doesn't mean a tonne on its own.


Ah, I was barking up the wrong trees, as per usual. doh!


----------



## Technostica

There are 8TB drives available, but they are classed as Enterprise drives so use the U.2 format. 
I used to use a PCIe 3.0 U.2 drive with an adapter and suspect you can do the same with these. 
You are looking at around 7GB/s and $1500. 
Obviously these are desktop drives.


----------



## samphony

CShorte said:


> No one seems to be talking about the ‘elephant in the room’. Intel proccesss not ready for Apple Silicon.
> what are your plans for AS based on having many, many Intel programs that have not been converted?
> 
> and, for those coming from a Intel based masculine, how do you plan to Load all of the apps and data that you will need onto the new machine? This is a great thread, full of information, thank you.



From my experience around January i hooked up my trashcan mac pro to the m1 mini and used migration assistant. Then the mini booted after migration and I didn’t noticed the difference except the mini had macOS 11.1 and is much faster as my old 12 core mac pro 2013. 

So no elephant in the room only cheetahs 🐆


----------



## ridgero

Okay, I am guilty.... Ordered my a MBP 16, M1 Max 10/24 Cores, 64 GB, 1 TB SSD


----------



## Nimrod7

ridgero said:


> Okay, I am guilty.... Ordered my a MBP 16, M1 Max 10/24 Cores, 64 GB, 1 TB SSD


Congrats! 

What's the estimated delivery? Mine is near 25 of November and ordered 3-4 days ago
Trying to compare with other countries...


----------



## Tronam

ridgero said:


> Okay, I am guilty.... Ordered my a MBP 16, M1 Max 10/24 Cores, 64 GB, 1 TB SSD


That's probably the one I'll go for myself, despite the irrational temptation to justify getting the 32 core GPU for some mental gymnastic reason that makes no logical sense.


----------



## ridgero

Nimrod7 said:


> Congrats!
> 
> What's the estimated delivery? Mine is near 25 of November and ordered 3-4 days ago
> Trying to compare with other countries...


Between 30. November - 7. December (Switzerland)

Congratz too, I am sure it will be an awesome machine :D


----------



## ridgero

Tronam said:


> That's probably the one I'll go for myself, despite the irrational temptation to justify getting the 32 core GPU for some mental gymnastic reason that makes no logical sense.


I bought the M1 Max because of the 64 GB of RAM. I won't use the 24 core GPU that much (a bit 4k video editing in Final Cut)


----------



## Tronam

ridgero said:


> I bought the M1 Max because of the 64 GB of RAM. I won't use the 24 core GPU that much (a bit 4k video editing in Final Cut)


Even the 24c configuration is 3x the GPU compute of last year's M1, so I don't know what the heck I need the extra cores for. I'm not so delusional to think AAA gaming is going to suddenly explode on the Mac. Maybe if I suddenly found a secret passion for Blender or Cinema4D. 😂


----------



## rnb_2

While I haven't done any 3D work recently, I've had a ZBrush license since the late 90s (because of their insane "never charge for updates" policy - I literally paid $150 for a package that has been updated massively over more than 2 decades and now costs $895, and have never paid to update), and I often fantasize that I might one day go back to it, combined with Blender (which just announced that they've made up with Apple).

I know that my photo software (mostly Lightroom Classic), Final Cut Pro, and Davinci Resolve should all make some use of the extra GPU cores on the Max, so I'd lean that way even if I didn't go beyond 32GB of RAM.


----------



## CShorte

samphony said:


> From my experience around January i hooked up my trashcan mac pro to the m1 mini and used migration assistant. Then the mini booted after migration and I didn’t noticed the difference except the mini had macOS 11.1 and is much faster as my old 12 core mac pro 2013.
> 
> So no elephant in the room only cheetahs 🐆


Thanks


----------



## Nimrod7

Many of the plugins are GPU intensive, like Avenger, renders everything with OpenGL at 60fps.
At Macs with integrated GPUs connected to 4K monitors, it suffers, and often the audio also is getting impacted from the performance bottlenecks.

An expensive GPU probably wont make a difference, but a humble discreet GPU can help in Audio Applications. I was intending never to get a Mac, with integrated graphics again, that's the reason I replaced the Mac Mini in the first place.


----------



## Pier

Nimrod7 said:


> Many of the plugins are GPU intensive, like Avenger, renders everything with OpenGL at 60fps.
> At Macs with integrated GPUs connected to 4K monitors, it suffers, and often the audio also is getting impacted from the performance bottlenecks.
> 
> An expensive GPU probably wont make a difference, but a humble discreet GPU can help in Audio Applications. I was intending never to get a Mac, with integrated graphics again, that's the reason I replaced the Mac Mini in the first place.


Yeah, almost everything uses the GPU these days.

Not only audio software, but the OS, browsers, plugins, etc. I don't have proof to back this up, but my hunch is that macOS uses a lot more GPU for rendering the system GUI than Windows does.

There is plenty of software that actually uses web tech to render its UI (Electron, Chrome Embedded Framework, etc), which in turn uses the GPU. KiloHearts uses Skia to render all its plugins, which is the rendering engine used by Chrome and developed by Google.

AFAIK, JUCE also uses OpenGL and Metal for rendering and it's used everywhere in the audio world.

The last Intel Mini was infamous for not being able to properly run Logic with a hiDPI monitor because the integrated GPU was crap.


----------



## khollister

Pier said:


> Yeah, almost everything uses the GPU these days.
> 
> Not only audio software, but the OS, browsers, plugins, etc. I don't have proof to back this up, but my hunch is that macOS uses a lot more GPU for rendering the system GUI than Windows does.
> 
> There is plenty of software that actually uses web tech to render its UI (Electron, Chrome Embedded Framework, etc), which in turn uses the GPU. KiloHearts uses Skia to render all its plugins, which is the rendering engine used by Chrome and developed by Google.
> 
> AFAIK, JUCE also uses OpenGL and Metal for rendering and it's used everywhere in the audio world.
> 
> The last Intel Mini was infamous for not being able to properly run Logic with a hiDPI monitor because the integrated GPU was crap.


I don't think we'll have the problem now with the Apple Silicon stuff


----------



## chrisboy

> and often the audio also is getting impacted from the performance bottlenecks.


If the plugin has a reasonable code quality, the GPU performance will never affect the audio output (both things are calculated on different threads with different prioritiy settings so an audio interrupt will always be executed before any graphics workload). There are a few side effects that might cause stability issues (like increased GPU load driving the CPU into thermal throttling), but these new chips from Apple seem to be lightyears ahead of Intel when it comes to thermals...


----------



## gamma-ut

Nimrod7 said:


> Many of the plugins are GPU intensive, like Avenger, renders everything with OpenGL at 60fps.
> At Macs with integrated GPUs connected to 4K monitors, it suffers, and often the audio also is getting impacted from the performance bottlenecks.
> 
> An expensive GPU probably wont make a difference, but a humble discreet GPU can help in Audio Applications. I was intending never to get a Mac, with integrated graphics again, that's the reason I replaced the Mac Mini in the first place.


If Avenger is chewing up too much GPU, there is a setting tucked away that will rein it in a bit - go to the Sys tab in the middle of the plugin and down the bottom there's a setting called FPS Mode, with three values - Eco, Mid, and Hammer That Fan (jk about the last one).

I agree that some plugins have got a bit too carried with the animation update rate. ExpressiveE's Noisy is perhaps the most bizarre as it seems to update at some insane rate judging by the CPU consumption when it's window is open but it's often just moving three or four controls (this seems to be exacerbated by some changes Apple made to rendering that unless plugin writers are really careful means the entire window gets redrawn each time). Krotos Concept is another one that eats processor time when the window's open.

I often have Turbo Boost Switcher running when using these as it stops the fan starting up and only has a minor effect on overall real-time DAW performance (though for rendering, re-enabling Turbo Boost makes sense).


----------



## river angler

jbuhler said:


> Those 2012 i7 MacBook Pros are really good. I have one myself still in daily service and aside from memory it holds up well compared to my top end consumer i7 quad iMac from 2015. But it’s blown away by my 2020 iMac i9. And 16GB is a severe limitation for many music production set ups.


Appreciate your considered comment to my post!... you say the 2020 iMac i9 blows it away but the iMac is a desktop machine not a laptop!


----------



## jbuhler

river angler said:


> Appreciate your considered comment to my post!... you say the 2020 iMac i9 blows it away but the iMac is a desktop machine not a laptop!


Indeed and I also didn’t say my 2015 i7 iMac blew it away! The 2020 i9 is objectively better across the board but the 2015 i7 iMac was better mostly because of the additional memory (64 GB instead of 26. The i9 has 128GB so there’s no comparison).

I still use the 2012 MBP daily and rarely experience any issue with running the normal productivity software such as word processors, spreadsheets, presentation software, web browsers, pdf readers, etc. it runs the latest version of zoom with all the image filters and such. It transcodes video at a decent speed. Almost a decade old, it remains a more than serviceable machine. And it has taken a pounding over the next years too.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

ridgero said:


> Okay, I am guilty.... Ordered my a MBP 16, M1 Max 10/24 Cores, 64 GB, 1 TB SSD


only 1tb wow


----------



## danwool

FrozenIcicle said:


> only 1tb wow


That's plenty for the OS and apps isn't it? The integrated storage is sooo expensive compared to external. Apart from convenience, what are the advantages of more onboard storage?


----------



## hayvel

danwool said:


> That's plenty for the OS and apps isn't it? The integrated storage is sooo expensive compared to external. Apart from convenience, what are the advantages of more onboard storage?


I think external solutions give you slower read/write rates and from what I read, heat (and potential throttling) is also a problematic factor with fast external drives. On the other hand, we don't know yet how the internal memory of the new macs performs over longer periods of time and if the additional speed is actually relevant in real world DAW use.

I will certainly go external simply for cost considerations like you do. But if I could afford it easily, I would take the internal storage of course.


----------



## river angler

jbuhler said:


> Indeed and I also didn’t say my 2015 i7 iMac blew it away! The 2020 i9 is objectively better across the board but the 2015 i7 iMac was better mostly because of the additional memory (64 GB instead of 26. The i9 has 128GB so there’s no comparison).
> 
> I still use the 2012 MBP daily and rarely experience any issue with running the normal productivity software such as word processors, spreadsheets, presentation software, web browsers, pdf readers, etc. it runs the latest version of zoom with all the image filters and such. It transcodes video at a decent speed. Almost a decade old, it remains a more than serviceable machine. And it has taken a pounding over the next years too.


I actually went from the latest G5 at the time to the 2012 MBP. I was fed up with the bulk and non portability of a machine that wasn't giving me any comparable increase in efficiency. Indeed the i7 chip was new on the block back then and no doubt the modern equivalent is a fair bit faster however how fast does one really need?! As I said I run huge orchestral mockups on my 2012 no problem even before needing to freeze any tracks. Yes having more RAM is always useful but it's the fact that one is forced to add hubs and hang ones peripheral SSDs off the modern laptop plus the huge price tag that continues to put me off upgrading to a new laptop based system!

I seem to be a pro composer very much in the minority here being satisfied with 16gig of RAM and the speed of the i7 chip set! The only thing that might force me to change would be new facilities only available on Big Sir (I haven't even bothered moving to Catalina!) that I really felt were going to transform my composer/production workflow in the studio. However the mere lack of being able to add extra internal drives in the modern MBP for me defeats the object of having a laptop!


----------



## el-bo

Love Dave2D for always keeping it low-key and real:


----------



## Pier

hayvel said:


> I think external solutions give you slower read/write rates and from what I read, heat (and potential throttling) is also a problematic factor with fast external drives. On the other hand, we don't know yet how the internal memory of the new macs performs over longer periods of time and if the additional speed is actually relevant in real world DAW use.
> 
> I will certainly go external simply for cost considerations like you do. But if I could afford it easily, I would take the internal storage of course.


Honestly, I think the biggest selling point of internal vs external is simply convenience.

Theoretically, TB3 gives you up to 40Gbps of bandwidth which is 5GBps. I think the fastest M2 SSD goes up to something like 7GBps for sequential read speeds. So yeah, in theory an external drive can be slower, but unless you're reading huge files you're probably not going to notice it. It really depends on what type of external storage/enclosure you're using.

Intel Macs do get hotter when using TB ports. I've experienced this on all my TB equipped Intel Macs. From TB1 to TB3. On average, the CPU gets +10ºC when connecting anything to the TB port. Has anyone noticed this on M1 Macs too?


----------



## Technostica

TB3 and TB4 both encapsulate PCIe 3.0, so no benefit in using a PCIe 4.0 SSD.
40Gbs is the gross bandwidth, so you have to deduct the encoding overhead and look at what TBx reserves for other protocols.
In practice, I think ~3GBs is roughly the maximum you will get and 3.5GBs is the maximum for PCIe 3.0 anyway.

As for Apple's internal SSD, as well as hitting ~7GBs, it could also have better latency than using an external SSD.
Will have to wait to see reviews for that info.
You also need to look at real world figures, including sustained workloads to get a sense of how important this is, which will also depend on your workflow.
SSDs can't be judged by a single metric, in terms of deducing real world performance.


----------



## Technostica

Here’s a technical look at the SoC.








Apple's M1 Pro, M1 Max SoCs Investigated: New Performance and Efficiency Heights







www.anandtech.com





Based on that, the higher memory bandwidth of the Max version, probably won’t lead to a significant or possibly any advantage in pure CPU performance.
So for audio work where only the cores are stressed, the upgrade seems unnecessary for this generation.


----------



## danwool

Technostica said:


> Here’s a technical look at the SoC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apple's M1 Pro, M1 Max SoCs Investigated: New Performance and Efficiency Heights
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.anandtech.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Based on that, the higher memory bandwidth of the Max version, probably won’t lead to a significant or possibly any advantage in pure CPU performance.
> So for audio work where only the cores are stressed, the upgrade seems unnecessary for this generation.


I believe this, but only the Max allows 64gb RAM, which seems like the minimum for pro work.


----------



## Vik

"There were several media-related demo projects that Apple included to show the performance of the system, including some Logic Pro projects, X Code, Cinema 4D, and Affinity Photo among others.

I played around with them all, opening one after the other until they were all running. The M1 Max didn’t break a sweat as I played around with them, tabbing between video editing at 4K with Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro composing over 1000 tracks, Cinema 4D rendering scenes, Affinity Photo editing some beautiful HDR images, and X Code doing whatever X Code does.

At one point I started playing back all of the above apps that could playback all at one time and the system handled it pretty well. Vidoe playback got a bit choppy here and there, but that’s way more than you’d ever ask it to do. *Audio was fine*. Part of this capability is because of the super-fast SSD."
From https://www.provideocoalition.com/review-16-inch-apple-macbook-pro-m1-max-for-video-editors-part-1/

Disk speed test from a YouTube review:


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

rnb_2 said:


> I know that my photo software (mostly Lightroom Classic), Final Cut Pro, and Davinci Resolve should all make some use of the extra GPU cores on the Max, so I'd lean that way even if I didn't go beyond 32GB of RAM.


I'll be interested to hear how DaVinci Resolve does with it.

Also Gigapixel AI, the one program that causes my Mac's fans to roar.


----------



## rnb_2

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I'll be interested to hear how DaVinci Resolve does with it.
> 
> Also Gigapixel AI, the one program that causes my Mac's fans to roar.


That's one of the Topaz plugins I don't have, but they've admitted it's going to be some time before they have Apple Silicon native versions out, so it will be interesting to see how that whole suite behaves on M1 Pro/Max.


----------



## khollister

rnb_2 said:


> That's one of the Topaz plugins I don't have, but they've admitted it's going to be some time before they have Apple Silicon native versions out, so it will be interesting to see how that whole suite behaves on M1 Pro/Max.


I have a number of older Topaz licenses, but don't use them anymore. My toolkit is pretty much Capture 1, Affinity Photo, Nik ColorFX, SilverFX & HDRFX, Luminar and On1 - all of which are native already. Luminar and On1 are used for creative effects and utilities, not for RAW processing. The native version of Capture 1 flies even on the M1. I can't imagine what happens on teh M1Max.

I shoot Fuji and C1 nails the raw development for Fuji files. Gave up on Adobe for anything a couple years ago.


----------



## ridgero

FrozenIcicle said:


> only 1tb wow


Yeah, I cant have both, its simply too expensive. I rather choose RAM. 4k is already very expensive 😅


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

khollister said:


> I have a number of older Topaz licenses, but don't use them anymore. My toolkit is pretty much Capture 1, Affinity Photo, Nik ColorFX, SilverFX & HDRFX, Luminar and On1 - all of which are native already.


Affinity Photo is really great. It doesn't strain my 5,1 12-core, though - at least not with anything I've asked it to do.

Gigapixel AI is amazing.

This is zoomed way, way in (obviously Gigapixel-processed version on the right). What I do starts with photographs, but you wouldn't know that 95% of the time, so this is an edge-case application:


----------



## rnb_2

khollister said:


> I have a number of older Topaz licenses, but don't use them anymore. My toolkit is pretty much Capture 1, Affinity Photo, Nik ColorFX, SilverFX & HDRFX, Luminar and On1 - all of which are native already. Luminar and On1 are used for creative effects and utilities, not for RAW processing. The native version of Capture 1 flies even on the M1. I can't imagine what happens on teh M1Max.
> 
> I shoot Fuji and C1 nails the raw development for Fuji files. Gave up on Adobe for anything a couple years ago.


I've heard that Adobe doesn't handle Fuji's colors as well as Capture 1. I've had Capture 1 licenses off and on for many years (currently have a limited one from my Sony RX10 IV), but I know my way around Lightroom very well, it gets me what I want from my Olympus and Sony cameras, and getting Photoshop as well for $10/month — less if you find an annual package on sale, which I've done a few times — is below my pain threshold, given that my website is included in the deal.

Topaz Sharpen and Denoise were the New Hotness a few months ago, so I grabbed them. DxO occasionally does things to tick me off (like emailing every day to encourage upgrades before a certain date, then running a better sale literally three weeks later), but I've kept current with PhotoLab for the things it does better than anything else (really bad noise, pre-Topaz AI) and perspective correction. Still undecided about updating this year, but will wait for their BF sale, regardless.

Most of my important things are M1 native now, save some plugins that are still in the previous Photoshop format. Since I'm on Adobe's pre-release testing program (I don't think I'm prohibited from saying that, only talking about the software), I can keep one copy of Photoshop running native and the other running in Rosetta.

Most of my computer "upgrades" over the last few years have been incremental (thanks to Intel), and some were even downgrades in performance for upsides in other areas (like the last time I tried to switch to a laptop as my main computer, in late 2016 - didn't stick, at least in part because that generation of Intel chips was awful). My last big upgrade, from a mid-2017 3GHz i5 21.5" Retina iMac to a 2018 i7 Mac mini with a Vega 56 eGPU, came with a big increase in complexity and noise (both from the mini and the eGPU), and some new headaches (like having to remember to disconnect the eGPU before doing system updates). Going from that to an M1 mini was a decent (though not huge) CPU upgrade, but a substantial GPU downgrade (though not really noticeable in day-to-day use). So, M1 Pro/Max is my first opportunity to do a BIG upgrade with no substantial gotchas (he said, knocking on wood) in a very long time.

My big dilemma at this point remains the laptop question. I have not, historically, been a heavy laptop user, and it's difficult for me to look at a laptop that is likely to be in clamshell mode the vast majority of the time as anything but a waste of money (especially with a Mini-LED, ProMotion screen). On the other hand, 18+ months of running two computers and keeping things in sync has demonstrated the extra cognitive overhead (not to mention time) involved, and getting a laptop with enough storage to eliminate that whole "do everything twice" scheme (4TB would do the trick, but be pricey; 2TB would eliminate one currently-essential external from the mix) has its attractions. A theoretical 2-4TB M1 Pro/Max mini might give the same option, but I would still need a laptop for travel, leaving me with an M1 MacBook Air that sits in a bag at least 99% of the time. The same applies to any future M1 Pro/Max iMac, with the further caveat of being more strongly tied to a single desk.

So, I continue to ponder. I want to believe that dropping a lot on one of these laptops would set me up for a few years - the performance of a 10c/32c/32GB/2TB Max would be far above my bright-line performance needs. But this little voice in my head keeps asking if that's the only consideration that might sway me two years down the line. Would an iMac with a Mini-LED screen and ProMotion persuade me that having one good computer (the M1 Air) and one great computer (said iMac) would make the two-computer dance worthwhile? My current BenQ display is very nice, but it's still 4k scaling to look like 5k, and while it has excellent color, it's still just a nice 60Hz LED display with mediocre brightness (and thus mediocre HDR).

So, in the long run, which means more to me: a portable solution that eliminates the drudgery of installing everything twice and keeping two computers in sync, but connected to my (fine, really) current displays for most of its use, or an iMac with a world-class display and probably even better performance, but that only replaces one of my two current computers and is tied to one of my two workspaces? Or a (theoretical) M1 Pro/Max Mac mini that splits the difference (and suddenly seems like the least attractive option)?


----------



## Nimrod7

Justine just testing the Macbook, 
8K Raw footage, with temporal noise reduction in DaVinci Resolve playing real time... 😳


----------



## hayvel

Pier said:


> Honestly, I think the biggest selling point of internal vs external is simply convenience.
> 
> Theoretically, TB3 gives you up to 40Gbps of bandwidth which is 5GBps. I think the fastest M2 SSD goes up to something like 7GBps for sequential read speeds. So yeah, in theory an external drive can be slower, but unless you're reading huge files you're probably not going to notice it. It really depends on what type of external storage/enclosure you're using.
> 
> Intel Macs do get hotter when using TB ports. I've experienced this on all my TB equipped Intel Macs. From TB1 to TB3. On average, the CPU gets +10ºC when connecting anything to the TB port. Has anyone noticed this on M1 Macs too?


Yes, I would not argue over that, but danwool asked what the advantages of internal vs. external storage was, besides convenience, and I just wanted to answer that question.


----------



## Vik

Pier said:


> Theoretically, TB3 gives you up to 40Gbps of bandwidth which is 5GBps. I think the fastest M2 SSD goes up to something like 7GBps for sequential read speeds. So yeah, in theory an external drive can be slower, but unless you're reading huge files you're probably not going to notice it.


The VI-makers of course know that current and soon-to-come read/write speeds (due to the PCI5 specs) – and RAM speed (due to the DDR5 specs) and external storage (since TB follows the PCI specs, will exceed anything we've seen before. Libraries like Spiftfire Abbey Road modular and PS Pacific probably plan for the speed we'll soon will be able to see, so many libraries will contain more dynamic (etc) layers. VI-instruments will therefore contain a lot of huge files (all arcs, legatos and sustains), that we'll want to crossfade between. Some of the VSL instruments have lots of dynamic layers already. It will probably be more common to offer, say, 5-6 attacks and release options for each of these layers.

When I buy a new Mac, I want it to last more than just a few years, and therefore it's IMO wise (for me) to not just buy something which will be fine for the first year or two, or maybe three. This serves both as an argument pro and con saving samples to external drives: pro, because internal drives probably have better performance than external drives, and con because having the samples stored externally means that it will be easier to use the same libraries on several current computers og needed, and it will also be easier to move over to a new computer.

The best solution is probably to have at least 2 (but ideally 4 or more) internal terabytes, and store whatever's left on external drives.


----------



## samphony

I’m glad I went with the full on internals but seeing the first non music related reviews I’m close to changing my order from 16” to 14”. But then the 16” gives so much screen real estate…


----------



## Pier

samphony said:


> But then the 16” gives so much screen real estate…


And more battery life, and a high power mode.


----------



## Vik

samphony said:


> I’m glad I went with the full on internals but seeing the first non music related reviews I’m close to changing my order from 16” to 14”. But then the 16” gives so much screen real estate…


What are the other differences? Better battery life on the 16", and... speed charging/more powerful power supply?


----------



## Vik

Pier said:


> high power mode


I saw a YouTube clip which demonstrated that the high power mode didn't make a lot of difference. But that may vary, I guess, based on what you're working on.


----------



## Pier

Vik said:


> I asp a YT clip which demonstrated that the high power mode didn't make a lot of difference. But that may vary, I guess, based on what you're working on.


I haven't seen any benchmarks but IMO it won't make much of a difference for audio applications.

It could be significant for intensive sustained processes like video encoding, 3d rendering, etc.


----------



## Technostica

Vik said:


> The VI-makers of course know that current and soon-to-come read/write speeds (due to the PCI5 specs) – and RAM speed (due to the DDR5 specs) and external storage (since TB follows the PCI specs), will exceed anything we've seen before.


TB4 only supports PCIe 3, but I think they have increased the minimum bandwidth available to those PCIe lanes since TB3, so there may be a performance increase. 

No idea if there will be a TB5 which supports a newer iteration of PCIe. 
That partly depends on the practicality of the cabling required to support it.


----------



## Vik

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I'll be interested to hear how DaVinci Resolve does with it.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Vik said:


> The best solution is probably to have at least 2 (but ideally 4 or more) internal terabytes, and store whatever's left on external drives


That storage is so expensive!


----------



## khollister

Vik said:


> I saw a YouTube clip which demonstrated that the high power mode didn't make a lot of difference. But that may vary, I guess, based on what you're working on.


That particular test was rendering video. I suspect the dedicated media chips in the M1 Max did a lot of the heavy lifting, so allowing the CPU/GPU to run hotter didn't move the needle much. He did say it got a lot hotter to the touch, so something was happening. My guess is that something like bouncing out stems might show a bit more advantage to Hi Perf mode.


----------



## Vik

Sure, Nick, the price difference between 2 and 4 tb is $600. But if you'll buy an external m.2 drive with the same specs, what's the price?


----------



## Technostica

khollister said:


> That particular test was rendering video. I suspect the dedicated media chips in the M1 Max did a lot of the heavy lifting, so allowing the CPU/GPU to run hotter didn't move the needle much. He did say it got a lot hotter to the touch, so something was happening. My guess is that something like bouncing out stems might show a bit more advantage to Hi Perf mode.


The review I linked above shows it pulling 120W at the wall socket if you stress both the CPU and GPU. 
Hardly a surprise given the adapter they bundle with it. 
If just stressing the CPU, it should be nearer 40 to 50W at worst. 
That's excellent given the performance.


----------



## Technostica

Vik said:


> Sure, Nick, the price difference between 2 and 4 tb is $600. But if you'll buy an external m.2 drive with the same specs, what's the price?


There isn't one as there are no external interfaces that supports more than about 3GBs.
If you look at fast PCIe 4 internal drives, the difference between two and four GB is roughly £350 - £450; Apple charge £600.


----------



## colony nofi

Technostica said:


> TB4 only supports PCIe 3, but I think they have increased the minimum bandwidth available to those PCIe lanes since TB3, so there may be a performance increase.
> 
> No idea if there will be a TB5 which supports a newer iteration of PCIe.
> That partly depends on the practicality of the cabling required to support it.


Its most definitely already in development...


----------



## colony nofi

Just scanned the Anandtech deep dive. Linked earlier in this thread.
There's some really interesting knowledge nuggets in the piece. And some pretty amazing statements...



> The chips here aren’t only able to outclass any competitor laptop design, but also competes against the best desktop systems out there, you’d have to bring out server-class hardware to get ahead of the M1 Max – it’s just generally absurd.











Apple's M1 Pro, M1 Max SoCs Investigated: New Performance and Efficiency Heights







www.anandtech.com





This bodes really well for those of us who need to use workstations in the field. (I can retire the trashcan mac pro that I carry around with me when travelling!) I'm hopeful of this being a superb little workstation-in-a-laptop, and I'm more than happy to work within the 64GB ram envelope given the implied performance of the rest of the laptop. Our internal M1 testing was incredibly encouraging. It will be a good 2 months before we can do our own M1 vs M1Max tests for nuendo, but I must say I'm really looking forward to doing them!

I think everyone here at VI-Control who relies on macs for their audio/music work will be much relieved in seeing what the M1Max can do. It bodes well for an imac based on the same silicon (almost assured it will happen) as well as future more professional level machines (which *WILL* be once again geared to vfx pro's, but may well have use cases for those here who want to make use of massive amounts of RAM.


----------



## StefVR

Oh its even great for die hard Windows users as this pits a ton of pressure on Intel and AMD.


----------



## tmhuud

I think the lappys are on the right track… but, only 64gb ram. I couldn’t live with that as a stand-alone. 

Still, we really ARE into an interesting new era.


----------



## Virtuoso

Yay! Mine just shipped.


----------



## Nimrod7

Wooooo!! 
Fan noise comparison! 

Seriously, I feel for the first time ever, a MacBook exceeds my expectation as a production workstation.
I feel we went 10 years in the future.


----------



## benwiggy

Got mine! Once I've spent all morning installing and updating everything, I'll let you know how I get on.


----------



## tmhuud

Nimrod7 said:


> Wooooo!!
> Fan noise comparison!
> 
> Seriously, I feel for the first time ever, a MacBook exceeds my expectation as a production workstation.
> I feel we went 10 years in the future.



Or. Maybe. We’ve finally caught up to where we should be.


----------



## davidson

Nimrod7 said:


> Wooooo!!
> Fan noise comparison!
> 
> Seriously, I feel for the first time ever, a MacBook exceeds my expectation as a production workstation.
> I feel we went 10 years in the future.



I found it interesting that the m1 max was still 10% less powerful than the 2020 intel imac, I thought the 10 core m1 would destroy it.


----------



## khollister

davidson said:


> I found it interesting that the m1 max was still 10% less powerful than the 2020 intel imac, I thought the 10 core m1 would destroy it.


It does in Geekbench. This is the problem with synthetic benchmarks.


----------



## el-bo

Nimrod7 said:


> I feel we went 10 years in the future.


Yup! I've not a chance in hell of getting near one of these things financially-speaking. However, I'm extremely excited about the progress. Besides, in a few years I might be able to grab one of these on the 2nd-hand market and it still be eons ahead of what I'm currently using 

Good times!


----------



## Technostica

davidson said:


> I found it interesting that the m1 max was still 10% less powerful than the 2020 intel imac, I thought the 10 core m1 would destroy it.


Overall it does beat it. 
But there are usually high and low points in most architectures depending on the workload. 
Integer v floating point is one base differentiation. 

Also keep in mind that this is a mobile chip, so the clock speeds are much lower than for the x86 desktop chips to keep power consumption down. 
I find it amazing enough as it is really.


----------



## Billy Shears

I'm debating between going for 16" 64GB M1 Max 4TB or 1TB. I feel as though if I get 2TB, I will still need to carry my external drive with me, so that's not good. But also, since 4TB is so damn expensive, at +1000$, I just might be better off getting this external SSD for 700$ alongside 1TB internal drive 
I would appreciate you guys chiming in with your opinions. Thanks!


----------



## Van

Billy Shears said:


> I'm debating between going for 16" 64GB M1 Max 4TB or 1TB. I feel as though if I get 2TB, I will still need to carry my external drive with me, so that's not good. But also, since 4TB is so damn expensive, at +1000$, I just might be better off getting this external SSD for 700$ alongside 1TB internal drive
> I would appreciate you guys chiming in with your opinions. Thanks!



I have my eye on 64gb and 4tb.
I’m always right against the limit at 1tb on both my computers so that’d mean 2tb. But, if I go for this thing (it’s ordered for delivery in December but waiting for reviews by media composers), I’d want to get libraries ON the internal drive as it looks like it can finally probably handle that (I could be wrong?) in which case, 2tb won’t cut it. 8tb is ludicrous pricy but 4tb seems to be the sweet spot for future-proofing while not selling an organ.


----------



## Technostica

Van said:


> I have my eye on 64gb and 4tb.
> I’m always right against the limit at 1tb on both my computers so that’d mean 2tb. But, if I go for this thing (it’s ordered for delivery in December but waiting for reviews by media composers), I’d want to get libraries ON the internal drive as it looks like it can finally probably handle that (I could be wrong?) in which case, 2tb won’t cut it. 8tb is ludicrous pricy but 4tb seems to be the sweet spot for future-proofing while not selling my children.


The 4TB option is reasonable value, but the 8TB is not.


----------



## gsilbers

Billy Shears said:


> I'm debating between going for 16" 64GB M1 Max 4TB or 1TB. I feel as though if I get 2TB, I will still need to carry my external drive with me, so that's not good. But also, since 4TB is so damn expensive, at +1000$, I just might be better off getting this external SSD for 700$ alongside 1TB internal drive
> I would appreciate you guys chiming in with your opinions. Thanks!




This is what i do w my m1 macbook air.


----------



## hayvel

gsilbers said:


> This is what i do w my m1 macbook air.



This seems smart, in a way, but I am hesitant. I mean 1. there is alot of extra weight on those hinges that are only built to hold the display and 2. fast tb drives can produce significant heat. 

I really fear this could damage the mechanics of the lid or even the display. Who would want this to happen to her/his new macbook pro for a few grand....


----------



## gsilbers

hayvel said:


> This seems smart, in a way, but I am hesitant. I mean 1. there is alot of extra weight on those hinges that are only built to hold the display and 2. fast tb drives can produce significant heat.
> 
> I really fear this could damage the mechanics of the lid or even the display. Who would want this to happen to her/his new macbook pro for a few grand....



I only have a small ssd case and a small usb hub. These are glues/velcro on a plastic case covering the macbook. 
Ive been using this since the macbook air m1 came out. 
and for about 6 years on my older macbook. 
Never an issue.


----------



## Vik

Technostica said:


> There isn't one as there are no external interface that supports more than about 3GBs.


That's it: if you want read speeds at around 5000 mb/second, which would be brilliant with large sample libraries, a large internal drive is your only option right now. Apple charges 600 for something which could have been costing 400, and maybe those extra 200 is worth it – if one can afford it.

Of course prices will go down – in the early days of hard disc recording, 500 mb (!) drives were sold for circa $7000. But recording studios and others who charge around $100/hour won't be bothered by paying equal to two hours income (on top of the lowest possible price) in order to have 5000 mb/sec (read speed) instead if 2800 mb/sec.


----------



## Van

hayvel said:


> This seems smart, in a way, but I am hesitant. I mean 1. there is alot of extra weight on those hinges that are only built to hold the display and 2. fast tb drives can produce significant heat.
> 
> I really fear this could damage the mechanics of the lid or even the display. Who would want this to happen to her/his new macbook pro for a few grand....


I’ve seen this solution before and was planning on doing it myself. I don't worry about the hinges but the heat of the drives didn’t even occur to me. Maybe raising them up with some thick foam or something. . .


----------



## hayvel

gsilbers said:


> I only have a small ssd case and a small usb hub. These are glues/velcro on a plastic case covering the macbook.
> Ive been using this since the macbook air m1 came out.
> and for about 6 years on my older macbook.
> Never an issue.


Good to know, thank you for sharing yor experience.


----------



## Billy Shears

Damn, you guys are going to persuade me to go for the 4TB lol. Am I really in the minority who would get just 1TB for apps, current sessions and maybe most important samples, and use external for other stuff?


----------



## Van

Billy Shears said:


> Damn, you guys are going to persuade me to go for the 4TB lol. Am I really in the minority who would get just 1TB for apps, current sessions and maybe most important samples, and use external for other stuff?


I think that’s a great way to go and you can save money for stuff you might actually want/need. I’m just excited by the potential prospect that I _MIGHT_ be able to grab my laptop and work in a coffee shop or on a plane with all my libraries, a bunch of mics on a decent-sized template stored on the main drive, and no external drives! No clue if this is realistic yet but I sure can’t do it with a 2014 2.8 with 16gb ram. As it is now I’ve got two Samsung T5’s (3tb between them) hanging off my computer wherever I go. 
Of course I could be dreaming and I’m looking forward to some composers here on VI to set the record straight on what’s really possible!


----------



## Sovereign

Meh, I cancelled my 1TB purchase and bought the 2TB. Now having qualms about this choice for not going with the 4TB option. Also doubting choosing the 14". Great, just great.


----------



## rnb_2

Sovereign said:


> Meh, I cancelled my 1TB purchase and bought the 2TB. Now having qualms about this choice for not going with the 4TB option. Also doubting choosing the 14". Great, just great.


Why are you doubting going with the 14"? As long as you can work with that screen size, I don't think there's anything compelling in the 16" for composers.


----------



## khollister

rnb_2 said:


> Why are you doubting going with the 14"? As long as you can work with that screen size, I don't think there's anything compelling in the 16" for composers.


Agreed - I doubt the high performance mode is going to be very relevant to our workflows.


----------



## khollister

Van said:


> I think that’s a great way to go and you can save money for stuff you might actually want/need. I’m just excited by the potential prospect that I _MIGHT_ be able to grab my laptop and work in a coffee shop or on a plane with all my libraries, a bunch of mics on a decent-sized template stored on the main drive, and no external drives! No clue if this is realistic yet but I sure can’t do it with a 2014 2.8 with 16gb ram. As it is now I’ve got two Samsung T5’s (3tb between them) hanging off my computer wherever I go.
> Of course I could be dreaming and I’m looking forward to some composers here on VI to set the record straight on what’s really possible!


I think the chances are pretty much 100% that streaming everything off one of these internal drives will be fine. The only question is the trade off between costand the size needed for your particular template/go-to libraries.

i (and several others here) splashed for the 8TB, but even that won’t hold everything I own. The idea is to the primary libraries that are in current active use.


----------



## danwool

tmhuud said:


> I think the lappys are on the right track… but, only 64gb ram. I couldn’t live with that as a stand-alone.
> 
> Still, we really ARE into an interesting new era.


Are you taking into consideration the conjecture that unintegrated RAM metrics don't apply to M1's integrated RAM, or do you not concur? ...or do your needs exceed even the rosy assessments of M1's RAM performance


----------



## Van

khollister said:


> I think the chances are pretty much 100% that streaming everything off one of these internal drives will be fine. The only question is the trade off between costand the size needed for your particular template/go-to libraries.
> 
> i (and several others here) splashed for the 8TB, but even that won’t hold everything I own. The idea is to the primary libraries that are in current active use.


That’s great to hear and I’m sure hoping it’s the case. 
As for the template size, the biggest orchestral template I’ve used to far with all the mics I wanted put it in the 50gb of ram (give or take) arena for which my 64gb trash can was more than enough. I have 2.5tb of samples but even when I eventually get more, I can load the libraries I’m using for a project on the main drive if I really want. 
I’ve got a month and a half before it ships so there’s plenty of time to see what’s what with this thing.


----------



## Sovereign

rnb_2 said:


> Why are you doubting going with the 14"? As long as you can work with that screen size, I don't think there's anything compelling in the 16" for composers.


Well that's the issue I guess, the 16" does have a bit more screen size and having worked on a 13" macbook pro from 2014 before I know firsthand that the size of the desktop can be a bit limiting. But then again, I do use plenty of external screens for normal use, and I guess I also like the option of of taking what is in fact a workstation to bed (lol). That 16" is a heavy beast though.


----------



## jcrosby

khollister said:


> I think the chances are pretty much 100% that streaming everything off one of these internal drives will be fine. The only question is the trade off between costand the size needed for your particular template/go-to libraries.
> 
> i (and several others here) splashed for the 8TB, but even that won’t hold everything I own. The idea is to the primary libraries that are in current active use.


I stream everything off of a 2020 i9 macbook with 8TB and I hit CPU limits well before I'd ever hit any kind of _theoretical_ disk IO limit. I've also mixed a number of 100+ track sessions, (some still with various kontakt instances added in post)... Again, no issues at all... All from the internal disk.

I have 3-3.5 TB of samples on the internal. 
My sessions tend to run between 80-100 instruments playing in real time.
A typical arrangement for me is a very dense theatrical trailer track. Basically a lot going on in any given track...

TLDR: Even the 2020 MBP internal disks are fast enough to handle an entire project.


----------



## rnb_2

khollister said:


> Agreed - I doubt the high performance mode is going to be very relevant to our workflows.


Though this does bring up another interesting point with these machines: the cost difference between configurations is not as dramatic as we've come to expect. Once you equalize for the binned processors offered at the low end on the 14", the cost difference between 14" and 16" is only $200, so if you're fine with the extra size and weight, there's no reason not to do it.

This carries over across all configurations of both sizes. The real "base price" for a 10c/16c/16GB/1TB MacBook Pro is $2499. Want a 16" screen? Add $200. Want 32GB of RAM? Add $400. Want more GPU cores? Add $200. Want ALL the GPU cores? Add another $200. Want 64GB of RAM? Once you've paid for an M1 Max, just add $400. Most upgrades are fairly incremental in cost compared to the real base price, so unless you know that you don't need more than 512GB/1TB of storage and 16GB of RAM (and if you don't, you'd probably be better off with an M1, honestly), it's going to be pretty easy to talk yourself into buying more (Apple knows this, of course).

For example, say I decide that I really only "need" a 14" 10c/16c M1 Pro and 32GB of RAM, but really want to get that 4TB SSD. That's going to run $3899, but then you realize that you can get the full M1 Max experience for just over 10% more ($400)....


----------



## Vik

rnb_2 said:


> The real "base price" for a 10c/16c/16GB/1TB MacBook Pro is $2499. Want a 16" screen? Add $200. Want 32GB of RAM? Add $400. Want more GPU cores? Add $200. Want ALL the GPU cores? Add another $200. Want 64GB of RAM? Once you've paid for an M1 Max, just add $400. M


This makes sense, and it's often better to have a small computer with enough power/RAM/storage than one with a larger screen one won't be looking at most of the time anyway. Whether someone buys a 16" or 14", many will use an external, larger monitor and a standalone, wireless extended keyboard with this Mac most of the time anyway, and use the MBP 'as is' only when travelling, in which case small size and low weight often is a plus.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Vik said:


>


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Vik said:


> Sure, Nick, the price difference between 2 and 4 tb is $600. But if you'll buy an external m.2 drive with the same specs, what's the price?


No idea, but I'm not accusing them of ripping people off, I'm saying it's a f of a lot of money.

Also, I was thinking about the 8TB option when I wrote that - $2400. The basic computer is $2000.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

tmhuud said:


> Or. Maybe. We’ve finally caught up to where we should be.


Victory is fleeting.


----------



## RSK

Van said:


> I’ve seen this solution before and was planning on doing it myself. I don't worry about the hinges but the heat of the drives didn’t even occur to me. Maybe raising them up with some thick foam or something. . .


You'd be attaching the drive to an aluminum heatsink, which would spread the heat over a greater surface area and air-cool.


----------



## khollister

rnb_2 said:


> Though this does bring up another interesting point with these machines: the cost difference between configurations is not as dramatic as we've come to expect. Once you equalize for the binned processors offered at the low end on the 14", the cost difference between 14" and 16" is only $200, so if you're fine with the extra size and weight, there's no reason not to do it.
> 
> This carries over across all configurations of both sizes. The real "base price" for a 10c/16c/16GB/1TB MacBook Pro is $2499. Want a 16" screen? Add $200. Want 32GB of RAM? Add $400. Want more GPU cores? Add $200. Want ALL the GPU cores? Add another $200. Want 64GB of RAM? Once you've paid for an M1 Max, just add $400. Most upgrades are fairly incremental in cost compared to the real base price, so unless you know that you don't need more than 512GB/1TB of storage and 16GB of RAM (and if you don't, you'd probably be better off with an M1, honestly), it's going to be pretty easy to talk yourself into buying more (Apple knows this, of course).
> 
> For example, say I decide that I really only "need" a 14" 10c/16c M1 Pro and 32GB of RAM, but really want to get that 4TB SSD. That's going to run $3899, but then you realize that you can get the full M1 Max experience for just over 10% more ($400)....


Which is why I just full monty on a Max. The deltas for not getting something you may not need isn't enough to prevent second guessing your decision forever


----------



## khollister

danwool said:


> Are you taking into consideration the conjecture that unintegrated RAM metrics don't apply to M1's integrated RAM, or do you not concur? ...or do your needs exceed even the rosy assessments of M1's RAM performance


The integrated/shared RAM doesn't magically mean an application uses less RAM. If (and a big if) the M1's need less RAM than an Intel Mac, it's due to one or a combination of the following:

1) The ARM architecture may use less RAM to execute an application compiled from the same source code. While possible technically, I have not seen anything that really comes close to proving this one way or the other.

2) The preload size on sample libraries is reduced, either manually or automatically if the sample player detects a faster SSD (VSL Synchron player comes to mind).

3) Page outs (swapping) to disk are less noticeable due to the processor, SSD and bus performance.

The integrated memory advantage is almost all for the GPU. 

Most of our RAM footprint is samples. 16GB of loaded samples is still 16GB regardless of CPU architecture. The only thing that influences that is reducing the preload size due to having PCIe 4.0 level SSD speeds.


----------



## danwool

khollister said:


> The integrated/shared RAM doesn't magically mean an application uses less RAM. If (and a big if) the M1's need less RAM than an Intel Mac, it's due to one or a combination of the following:
> 
> 1) The ARM architecture may use less RAM to execute an application compiled from the same source code. While possible technically, I have not seen anything that really comes close to proving this one way or the other.
> 
> 2) The preload size on sample libraries is reduced, either manually or automatically if the sample player detects a faster SSD (VSL Synchron player comes to mind).
> 
> 3) Page outs (swapping) to disk are less noticeable due to the processor, SSD and bus performance.
> 
> The integrated memory advantage is almost all for the GPU.
> 
> Most of our RAM footprint is samples. 16GB of loaded samples is still 16GB regardless of CPU architecture. The only thing that influences that is reducing the preload size due to having PCIe 4.0 level SSD speeds.


Thanks. This might be the most thorough explanation I've seen on this yet. _"Most of our RAM footprint is samples" _is the key here - a basic point that can get lost in the discussions. ...and to be clear, the M1Max MBP can *not* do PCIe 4.0 level speeds, correct?


----------



## khollister

danwool said:


> Thanks. This might be the most thorough explanation I've seen on this yet. _"Most of our RAM footprint is samples" _is the key here - a basic point that can get lost in the discussions. ...and to be clear, the M1Max MBP can *not* do PCIe 4.0 level speeds, correct?


No, the new MBP’s have SSDs that run at PCIe 4 speeds (7+ GBs). The M1 is slower


----------



## danwool

khollister said:


> No, the new MBP’s have SSDs that run at PCIe 4 speeds (7+ GBs). The M1 is slower


Oh! Thanks again. A point in favor of more onboard storage I guess.


----------



## Technostica

danwool said:


> Thanks. This might be the most thorough explanation I've seen on this yet. _"Most of our RAM footprint is samples" _is the key here - a basic point that can get lost in the discussions. ...and to be clear, the M1Max MBP can *not* do PCIe 4.0 level speeds, correct?


The storage speeds quoted are in the area of high end M.2 PCIe 4.0 drives.
I wouldn't expect anything else as Apple are only playing catch up with mainstream Windows PCs. 
Intel release a new platform next month which supports PCIe 5.0.
Drives with up to 15GBs are due next year. 
Drive performance is one of the few areas where Apple are still lagging.


----------



## Vik

I'm convinced that PCIe 4 drives will improve working with large sample libraries a lot, and that doesn't change even if the first PCIe 5 controllers were announced some months ago.









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Even faster SSDs based on PCIe 5.0 are expected to arrive next year


As more platforms supporting PCI Express 5.0 arrive, so will speedier SSDs.




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----------



## Nick Batzdorf

khollister said:


> It does in Geekbench. This is the problem with synthetic benchmarks.


Yes! And that applies at least as much to audio equipment specs!

How many times has someone asked about an audio interface's latency without even considering its sound - let alone basic things like the number of ins and outs it has?

Having said that, the video someone linked in this thread (I think it's this one) showing the new machines playing back monster video streams without hesitating is impressive.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Vik said:


> I'm convinced that PCIe 4 drives will improve working with large sample libraries a lot



I'm skeptical, just because I haven't even seen SATA 3 drives on a half-speed SATA 2 bus be a bottleneck.

But I do suspect it'll make a difference for video editing, more of which is in my future (actually present).


----------



## mussnig

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I'm skeptical, just because I haven't even seen SATA 3 drives on a half-speed SATA 2 bus be a bottleneck.
> 
> But I do suspect it'll make a difference for video editing, more of which is in my future (actually present).


I think so too. I have a couple of external SSDs. Some are maxed out at roughly 500 MB/s, some are able to provide twice as much speed. However, with very small file sizes, all of them are slow compared to copying large files (which is to be expected).

So with sample libraries it now really depends. Some libraries mostly store samples in large files and they will really load noticeably faster on my faster drives. But with most of my libraries I don't really see any differences.

And since large sample libraries were mentioned: sadly also the newer Spitfire libraries which come in their own player don't really load faster on my faster drives - and they are usually RAM hungry without an option to purge. Everytime I activate a new mic position I need to wait a bit for it to load ... I should mention though that I'm on Win and I've heard that they work better on Mac.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

mussnig said:


> Some libraries mostly store samples in large files and they will really load noticeably faster on my faster drives.


That's interesting. You'd think the large files are bundles of smaller ones.


----------



## mussnig

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That's interesting. You'd think the large files are bundles of smaller ones.


Well they might be. But from a filesystem point of view it's just one big file and apparently that matters.


----------



## Technostica

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That's interesting. You'd think the large files are bundles of smaller ones.


They will have to be really.
A simple WAV file has a basic header of 44 bytes with the rest being the audio data.
It’s easy to use a proprietary format that could for example, keep all the audio data for a particular articulation in a contiguous block within the file.
So you only need a single disk access and then you are reading sequentially.
That reduces the latency considerably and gives a higher throughput.
Random I/O really slows things down, even on SSDs.


----------



## colony nofi

Vik said:


> I'm convinced that PCIe 4 drives will improve working with large sample libraries a lot, and that doesn't change even if the first PCIe 5 controllers were announced some months ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Upcoming Hardware Launches 2023 (Updated Dec 2022)
> 
> 
> This article serves as a continuously updated summary of currently known leaks and official announcements regarding upcoming hardware releases in 2023 and beyond. We cover and keep track of developments for Intel Meteor Lake, AMD Zen 4 X3D, NVIDIA's new GeForce 40 GPUs, DDR6 and GDDR7 memory...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.techpowerup.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even faster SSDs based on PCIe 5.0 are expected to arrive next year
> 
> 
> As more platforms supporting PCI Express 5.0 arrive, so will speedier SSDs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pcgamer.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A key building block for the first PCIe 5.0 SSDs just got announced
> 
> 
> Marvell makes big data smoother with double the performance of PCIe 4.0 SSD controllers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pcgamer.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KIOXIA CD7 Series PCIe 5.0 SSDs Belt Out 14 GBps Sequential Transfers
> 
> 
> Presenting at the China Flash-Market Summit, KIOXIA unveiled its plans to leverage PCI-Express 5.0 to double SSD performance over the current generation. In typical 4-lane U.2 and M.2 connections, PCI-Express Gen 5 enables an interface bandwidth of 16 GB/s per direction (comparable to...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.techpowerup.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phison is Enabling Custom PCIe Gen 5 SSDs to Ship in 2022, New E26-series Processor
> 
> 
> Phison Electronics Corp., a global leader in NAND flash controller integrated circuits and storage solutions, today announced its technology development of PCIe Gen 5 customizable SSD solutions for Enterprise and Client SSDs. Phison customers from Hyperscale Cloud Data Centers to PC Gaming...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.techpowerup.com


Well, we've done a tonne of tests, and that doesn't ring true I'm afraid.
Kontakt on its own is EXTREMELY slow at reading off drives. In kontakt, we have seen nothing like the delta of improvement of drive speeds when comparing SATA III SSD to even PCIE gen 3 SSD.

For example : on a SATA 3 SSD with 550MB/s (max possible speed) drive, Kontakt reads around 120-150MB/s (with some occasional bursts). It is using legacy code that opens and closes files constantly rather than grabbing larger chunks in one go.

On a 2800MB/s pcie 3 8TB M.2 SSD (Sabrent Rocket) the absolute fastest read speed I saw kontakt do was 380MB/s. We've tested both internally on a beefy PC and using a thunderbolt 3 external solution for our macs.

Also remember, the "speedtest" numbers are only ONE measure of a drive. The size of the chunks being read and written have a HUGE impact on performace - the speedtest numbers really are not relevant to us sample based composers.

Now - I have not tested the new MBP's and won't be able to for a good 2 months looking at the studio workfload thats on now. Am sure there'll be tonnes of others that get to it before us.

Anyway - this is to take absolutely NOTHING away from the new macs, which look awesome.

And I'm sure in some workflows (and maybe most) there will be some improvement given the drive speed. But its nothing even close to the delta seen in other software.


----------



## colony nofi

mussnig said:


> So with sample libraries it now really depends. Some libraries mostly store samples in large files and they will really load noticeably faster on my faster drives. But with most of my libraries I don't really see any differences.


unfortunately, kontakt does not work that way. It is constantly opening and closing the same file...


----------



## colony nofi

Vik said:


> even if the first PCIe 5 controllers were announced some months ago.


I just got off the phone to a resident tech who helps us out, and he's busy compiling loads of info given the alder lake - er - prerelease thats kinda happening as we speak.
Yes its PCI Gen 5 (only 2 years after gen 4) BUT the Gen 5 lanes - at least on release - are all for graphics, and the storage sub-systems are remaining on PCI Gen 4.

EDIT : Confirmed from others
- all alderlake boards will have 4 lanes of PCI Gen 4 for m.2 storage
- chipset in total has 12 PCI Gen 4 lanes and 16 PCI Gen 3
- less SATA III support (kinda expected)

Kinda out on a tangent, but boy - is cpu/pc tech finally moving again FAST after kinda stagnating during the mid 2010's... possibly because (a) AMD finally became competitive again, and then Apple burst onto the scene raining on intels parade. Love to see intel firing a bunch of new shots!


----------



## Technostica

colony nofi said:


> Yes its PCI Gen 5 (only 2 years after gen 4) BUT the Gen 5 lanes - at least on release - are all for graphics, and the storage sub-systems are remaining on PCI Gen 4.


Usually you can split the 16 lanes that go to the main slots, which would give you for example 8x, 4x & 4x.
So that would give you the ability to run two PCIe 5.0 x4 SSDs using adapters.
Not sure if the Z690 platform supports this feature?
Even if it does, you might well need to buy high end boards as implementing PCIe 5.0 will be expensive.

I just checked and some of the $500 boards offer at least two version 5.0 slots, which you could split 8x & 8x.
They also have a PCIe 4.0 x16, so you could possibly put a GPU in that and leave both the version 5.0 slots free for drives.
Not that you need a GPU as these have integrated.
All this is going to be expensive, so you need to make sure you really benefit from it.
Alongside this you can also run three PCIe 4.0 drives simultaneously at full speed.
So in total when using adapters, you should be able to run 5 drives at full speed.
That’s in the region of 35 to 50GBs, depending on if you are using any version 5.0 drives.


----------



## colony nofi

Technostica said:


> Usually you can split the 16 lanes that go to the main slots, which would give you for example 8x, 4x & 4x.
> So that would give you the ability to run two PCIe 5.0 x4 SSDs using adapters.
> Not sure if the Z690 platform supports this feature?
> Even if it does, you might well need to buy high end boards as implementing PCIe 5.0 will be expensive.
> 
> I just checked and some of the $500 boards offer at least two version 5.0 slots, which you could split 8x & 8x.
> They also have a PCIe 4.0 x16, so you could possibly put a GPU in that and leave both the version 5.0 slots free for drives.
> Not that you need a GPU as these have integrated.
> All this is going to be expensive, so you need to make sure you really benefit from it.
> Alongside this you can also run three PCIe 4.0 drives simultaneously at full speed.
> So in total when using adapters, you should be able to run 5 drives at full speed.
> That’s in the region of 35 to 50GBs, depending on if you are using any version 5.0 drives.


I like your style. Go grab yourself a couple of these








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I really do look forward to PCI Gen5 storage. But it doesn't excite me for sample libs.


----------



## mussnig

colony nofi said:


> unfortunately, kontakt does not work that way. It is constantly opening and closing the same file...


You are of course right. However, some Kontakt libraries will still load faster on say an NVME compared to an SATA III SSD (but still far away from the max. theoretic speed of the drive). One example would be Strezov's Wotan (and I think also Freyja).


----------



## colony nofi

mussnig said:


> You are of course right. However, some Kontakt libraries will still load faster on say an NVME compared to an SATA III SSD (but still far away from the max. theoretic speed of the drive). One example would be Strezov's Wotan (and I think also Freyja).


I might add Wotan to a test. It will be interesting to compare.

We use our own internally developed sample libs for testing - but they are rudimentary / not designed for best sound but instead for stressing the system. Some are pretty damn big - we deliberately have a few different style libs (number of round robins / length of notes / different number of samples per octave etc) to enable different tests of performance! Some take up huge amounts of Ram, others only small amounts. Benchmarking is HARD.


----------



## StefVR




----------



## Vik

@colony nofi Did you perform these tests with Logic in native M1 mode and with Kontakt in Rosetta mode?


----------



## FrozenIcicle

Need more logic comparisons with 14 inch vs 16inch.

Someone talk me out of changing my order from 16in 64gb 4tb to 14in 64 8tb

Since the 21hr quoted battery life is misleading and more like 14hrs, why should i stick with it


----------



## FrozenIcicle

colony nofi said:


> I might add Wotan to a test. It will be interesting to compare.
> 
> We use our own internally developed sample libs for testing - but they are rudimentary / not designed for best sound but instead for stressing the system. Some are pretty damn big - we deliberately have a few different style libs (number of round robins / length of notes / different number of samples per octave etc) to enable different tests of performance! Some take up huge amounts of Ram, others only small amounts. Benchmarking is HARD.


What is your job lol


----------



## khollister

FrozenIcicle said:


> Need more logic comparisons with 14 inch vs 16inch.
> 
> Someone talk me out of changing my order from 16in 64gb 4tb to 14in 64 8tb
> 
> Since the 21hr quoted battery life is misleading and more like 14hrs, why should i stick with it



Because the battery on the 14 is worse than the 16, regardless of how you benchmark it. 100Wh vs 70Wh, same internals assuming equivalent configs. The only thing drawing more power on the 16 is the display


----------



## khollister

StefVR said:


>



Interesting that someone over Gearspace said they got 185 tracks with a 16 Max on the same benchmark. I have seen quite a bit of variability in results with different Macs with this in spite of everyone claiming to follow the instructions.


----------



## benwiggy

Here's my quick review:

I bought the 'middle' 16" shop model, which is 16b RAM, 10-core CPU, 16-core GPU, 1Tb storage.

It's a beautiful machine. The screen is the clearest display I've ever seen. Noticeably more so than 'normal' retina. The sound is incredible. TouchID, as a means to enter your passwords, is really nice.

However, just with a few 'serious' samples in Dorico I was pushing 12 of the 16 Gb, with significant compression and some swap. (Swap, of course, is not the demon that some fear it to be.) There was no noticeable performance effect: and I dare say you could push it to the RAM limits and beyond without any problems. 

So I have sent it back and ordered a 32Gb one, just to 'future-proof' it.

Very few of the players are Native yet, which means running the host software like Logic in Rosetta.

One useful tip: if you need more storage, you can always use SD cards like mini-disks, as they now come in quite large sizes, e.g. 256 Gb.

The battery life is insane: I was downloading and installing stuff for an hour, and it was still showing 97%, with the promise of 12 more hours.Also, I couldn't get the fans to make any noise.


----------



## rnb_2

benwiggy said:


> Very few of the players are Native yet, which means running the host software like Logic in Rosetta.


Just a quick note that you don't have to run Logic in Rosetta to use Intel AUs - the OS has a compatibility service that bridges between an Apple Silicon host and Intel Audio Units. I believe this service works with 3rd party DAWs, as well, but need to do a bit more digging. The recent Universal release of Studio One presents a long list of AU plugins that disappear if you run it in Rosetta, but I haven't had time to investigate further yet. I did note that some AUs did not work properly in Studio One in Native mode on my M1s (weirdness in SampleTank 4 was what clued me in that something was up).


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

colony nofi said:


> Well, we've done a tonne of tests, and that doesn't ring true I'm afraid.
> Kontakt on its own is EXTREMELY slow at reading off drives. In kontakt, we have seen nothing like the delta of improvement of drive speeds when comparing SATA III SSD to even PCIE gen 3 SSD.
> 
> For example : on a SATA 3 SSD with 550MB/s (max possible speed) drive, Kontakt reads around 120-150MB/s (with some occasional bursts). It is using legacy code that opens and closes files constantly rather than grabbing larger chunks in one go.
> 
> On a 2800MB/s pcie 3 8TB M.2 SSD (Sabrent Rocket) the absolute fastest read speed I saw kontakt do was 380MB/s. We've tested both internally on a beefy PC and using a thunderbolt 3 external solution for our macs.
> 
> Also remember, the "speedtest" numbers are only ONE measure of a drive. The size of the chunks being read and written have a HUGE impact on performace - the speedtest numbers really are not relevant to us sample based composers.
> 
> Now - I have not tested the new MBP's and won't be able to for a good 2 months looking at the studio workfload thats on now. Am sure there'll be tonnes of others that get to it before us.
> 
> Anyway - this is to take absolutely NOTHING away from the new macs, which look awesome.
> 
> And I'm sure in some workflows (and maybe most) there will be some improvement given the drive speed. But its nothing even close to the delta seen in other software.


Great post, that explains a lot! Thanks.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

khollister said:


> Because the battery on the 14 is worse than the 16, regardless of how you benchmark it. 100Wh vs 70Wh, same internals assuming equivalent configs. The only thing drawing more power on the 16 is the display


To me the main argument for the 16" over the 14" is... simply that it has a bigger display!

This is not even pretending to be a pithy post, just one stating the bleedin' obvious:

If you're going to use a laptop as a main studio machine, a desktop replacement - as most people here would be doing, I think - then you may as well have the extra screen estate. That's true even if you hook up a big external monitor and use the laptop as an auxiliary.

On the other hand, if you're going to use it often as a mobile system, then the extra size and pound of weight are a factor.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

14": 3.5 pounds (1.6 kg)
16": 4.7 pounds (2.1 kg)

The 11" MacBook Air I travel with (not a studio machine): 2.4 pounds.


----------



## Technostica

The 14 incher is so light considering the performance it has.


----------



## Nimrod7

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The 11" MacBook Air I travel with (not a studio machine): 2.4 pounds.


I love Airs, for their size and weight they are stunning machines.
The only laptop that can fit properly on an airliner tray and you can still work!
Try that with those fancy 14" and 16" inches!

This summer when I was out of the studio was handling 25 BBCSO instances just fine.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Technostica said:


> The 14 incher is so light considering the performance it has.


And considering how heavy laptops were before the MacBook Air - an under-appreciated product that had a big influence on laptops that have come out since then.

I remember the first time I held one very clearly, and it was pretty astonishing. (It was Marten Sprujt's, at Musikmesse in 2006 or 7.)


----------



## Michael Antrum

I went to the local Apple Store on the way home, as I felt the only way to choose between the two sizes was go and see them on the flesh.

The screens are beautiful, but for me, I really wish they did a 15" version, as I thought the 16" is a bit too much of a lump for me to want to carry it about, whereas the 14" was nice and compact, but I felt I'd prefer a little more screen.

I kind of felt the 16" might get left at home a bit more..... I'll have to think about it, but the 16" looks absolutely massive when put next to the 14".

One thing that made me pause was that the new models didn't have the 'hewn from solid stone' feel that the older MBP's had. In fact the top of the machine (other side of the screen) felt like the aluminium was very thin, and gave me the impression it would mark easily......

Unless my accountant tells me I need to spend some cash before the year end, I've pretty much decided I'm not going to buy one. I'm going to wait for the desktop versions instead and see what those will be capable of.

(I'm waiting by the phone in case my accountant decides to call me, though....)


----------



## Technostica

Nick Batzdorf said:


> And considering how heavy laptops were before the MacBook Air - an under-appreciated product that had a big influence on laptops that have come out since then.
> 
> I remember the first time I held one very clearly, and it was pretty astonishing. (It was Marten Sprujt's, at Musikmesse in 2006 or 7.)


Yeah, Intel responded with their Ultrabook marketing strategy which did lead to some better lightweight Windows laptops. 
Then Apple almost took it to the point where there were zero ports, so when the initial battery charge expired you had to discard it.  
Good to seem them backtracking on that policy.


----------



## Tronam

rnb_2 said:


> Just a quick note that you don't have to run Logic in Rosetta to use Intel AUs - the OS has a compatibility service that bridges between an Apple Silicon host and Intel Audio Units. I believe this service works with 3rd party DAWs, as well, but need to do a bit more digging. The recent Universal release of Studio One presents a long list of AU plugins that disappear if you run it in Rosetta, but I haven't had time to investigate further yet. I did note that some AUs did not work properly in Studio One in Native mode on my M1s (weirdness in SampleTank 4 was what clued me in that something was up).


In my experience so far the AU bridge is both less performant and less reliable. Running Logic itself under Rosetta is still the most dependable and compatible way to go until all of your plugins can be run natively.


----------



## jcrosby

khollister said:


> Interesting that someone over Gearspace said they got 185 tracks with a 16 Max on the same benchmark. I have seen quite a bit of variability in results with different Macs with this in spite of everyone claiming to follow the instructions.


Crazy impressive (assuming they followed the test properly). Even the 175 number beats my 9900k hackintosh, and matches the numbers I've seen for the 9900ks. 185 is a good 10 tracks more...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Technostica said:


> Yeah, Intel responded with their Ultrabook marketing strategy which did lead to some better lightweight Windows laptops.
> Then Apple almost took it to the point where there were zero ports, so when the initial battery charge expired you had to discard it.
> Good to seem them backtracking on that policy.


Actually, you can have the battery replaced on an Air. Last time I checked it wasn't outrageous - $85 or so.

But mine is an early 2014, and its battery is still fine.


----------



## rnb_2

Nick Batzdorf said:


> And considering how heavy laptops were before the MacBook Air - an under-appreciated product that had a big influence on laptops that have come out since then.
> 
> I remember the first time I held one very clearly, and it was pretty astonishing. (It was Marten Sprujt's, at Musikmesse in 2006 or 7.)


It would have to have been a bit later - Steve pulled the first Air out of the envelope in January 2008.

That initial version was a truly terrible computer in many ways - prone to overheating, and very slow unless you went for the very expensive 64GB SSD - but it pointed the way forward, and the 2010 version (which stuck around, getting cheaper and cheaper, until 2018) defined the following decade of mainstream laptop design.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

rnb_2 said:


> It would have to have been a bit later - Steve pulled the first Air out of the envelope in January 2008.
> 
> That initial version was a truly terrible computer in many ways - prone to overheating, and very slow unless you went for the very expensive 64GB SSD - but it pointed the way forward, and the 2010 version (which stuck around, getting cheaper and cheaper, until 2018) defined the following decade of mainstream laptop design.


Ah, then it was probably 2008.

In any case, my reaction was just to the weight. I had no idea the machine had problems!

Meanwhile, my 11" one has to be the best Mac ever. It's perfect for general computer things. The size of an iPad, very good keyboard, regular USB ports, and (the one with 8GB of RAM) plenty of computer for its intended application.


----------



## rnb_2

Tronam said:


> In my experience so far the AU bridge is both less performant and less reliable. Running Logic itself under Rosetta is still the most dependable and compatible way to go until all of your plugins can be run natively.


I honestly haven't had any issues with the bridge in Logic, but my experience is neither vast nor strenuous. The bridge does seem to be less reliable with some plugins (like the aforementioned SampleTank 4, and others) in Studio One.


----------



## Technostica

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Actually, you can have the battery replaced on an Air. Last time I checked it wasn't outrageous - $85 or so.
> 
> But mine is an early 2014, and its battery is still fine.


I was referring to the almost port free and fanless Mac Book.
I was joking in implying that it had no power connector, so once the initial factory charge was used, you had to discard it.


----------



## rnb_2

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Ah, then it was probably 2008.
> 
> In any case, my reaction was just to the weight. I had no idea the machine had problems!
> 
> Meanwhile, my 11" one has to be the best Mac ever. It's perfect for general computer things. The size of an iPad, very good keyboard, regular USB ports, and (the one with 8GB of RAM) plenty of computer for its intended application.


Yeah, that 11" was fantastic. I got one in 2010 for travel, when I still had my 2006 Mac Pro (dual 2-core 2GHz Xeons, baby!) - the Air was significantly more portable.


----------



## rnb_2

Technostica said:


> I was referring to the almost port free and fanless Mac Book.


I'm surprised they haven't revisited the MacBook with Apple Silicon - everybody expected it to be the first release with Apple's own processor, but I think the M1 ended up being too powerful. It wouldn't have looked good for the rest of the line to release a single, ultra-portable laptop that was in many ways faster than every other computer you make.

The MacBook was almost a replay of the original MacBook Air - heavily compromised to meet weight and size goals - but never really got revised to correct the initial problems. Unfortunately, some of those problems (butterfly keyboard, lack of ports) then migrated to the rest of the laptop line, compromising everything for half a decade.


----------



## Vik

colony nofi said:


> Kontakt on its own is EXTREMELY slow at reading off drives. In kontakt, we have seen nothing like the delta of improvement of drive speeds when comparing SATA III SSD to even PCIE gen 3 SSD.
> 
> For example : on a SATA 3 SSD with 550MB/s (max possible speed) drive, Kontakt reads around 120-150MB/s (with some occasional bursts). It is using legacy code that opens and closes files constantly rather than grabbing larger chunks in one go.


I'm still very curious about these tests, even if a test project based on the main 'brain' (Kontakt) most likely only is operating in Rosettas emulated universe – and therefore may not show much of these Macs' real capacity.

Regarding being able to read at max. 150 mb/second: In an imagined scenario; a VI-based project with 50 tracks, that's 150 times 50= 7500 mb/second _(if I get this right) – _which is brilliant. Intel Macs can read at a lot less than that, around 2400/mb second. The M1 Max should be able to double that. But the real question, I guess, is: Will any of the tests done with Kontakt done today tells us much about how these rigs can perform, since Kontakt is written in 'legacy code'? Kontakt simply isn't design to read at M1 Max speeds, and isn't optimised for Apple Silicon at all.

EDIT: Apples sampler is optimised for Apple Silicon, so a test comparing how that sampler perform on an Apple Silicon Mac vs. on an Intel Mac could maybe give us a hint about how Kontakt or it's successor will behave after having been ported to native M1 code, right?


----------



## rnb_2

Vik said:


> I'm still very curious about these tests, even if a test project based on the main 'brain' (Kontakt) most likely only is operating in Rosettas emulated universe – and therefore may not show much of these Macs' real capacity.


It's important to remember that Rosetta 2 is, unlike the original Rosetta from 2006, not emulation, but (mostly) translation. On first run, most code is translated from x64 to arm64 and kept in a hidden cache (there is a bit of JIT stuff going on, but I haven't dug into exactly how much or when it's used). There are certainly optimizations that can be done in creating an arm64 or Universal version of an app or plugin that will yield better performance over translated code, but we're not talking orders of magnitude in the vast majority of cases.


----------



## Vik

rnb_2 said:


> It's important to remember that Rosetta 2 is, unlike the original Rosetta from 2006, not emulation, but (mostly) translation. On first run, most code is translated from x64 to arm64 and kept in a hidden cache (there is a bit of JIT stuff going on, but I haven't dug into exactly how much or when it's used). There are certainly optimizations that can be done in creating an x64 or Universal version of an app or plugin that will yield better performance over translated code, but we're not talking orders of magnitude in the vast majority of cases.


Nevertheless. and of course, since it's a year since M1 chips were released and major apps like Cubase Kontakt, Dorico still aren't available for Apple Silicon, a proper 'translation' on app takes a long time to implement properly. I suspect that whatever Rosetta can do, there will me a major difference between using Kontakt in Rosetta vs. using Kontakt written/optimised for A – or a follow-up product to Kontak (which has M1 native code). At any rate, Kontakt being able to read samples from disk at max. 150 mb/sec. on systems that can read 5000 mb/sec. isn't where this will end.


----------



## colony nofi

Vik said:


> @colony nofi Did you perform these tests with Logic in native M1 mode and with Kontakt in Rosetta mode?


No. All our studios are nuendo based. So we are still in Rosetta for our M1's!
We have also benchmarked loads on various intel macs and the occasional PC for special purpose projects.


----------



## colony nofi

Vik said:


> Nevertheless. and of course, since it's a year since M1 chips were released and major apps like Cubase Kontakt, Dorico still aren't available for Apple Silicon, a proper 'translation' on app takes a long time to implement properly. I suspect that whatever Rosetta can do, there will me a major difference between using Kontakt in Rosetta vs. using Kontakt written/optimised for A – or a follow-up product to Kontak (which has M1 native code). At any rate, Kontakt being able to read samples from disk at max. 150 mb/sec. on systems that can read 5000 mb/sec. isn't where this will end.


Don't be so surprised. The legacy code inside kontakt is VERY old... and there's 100000's of lines (millions) of code. The chats I've had with NI indicate they were not interested in re-writing. This was from 12 months ago - a lot can change in that time.

(And remember - SSD's have been around for donkeys years, and the code to read files in kontakt really is geared towards SPINNING rust. STILL.)

Its only edge case users who care. NI know this, and have their own set of priorities when it comes to what they are developing / putting resources into.


----------



## colony nofi

Vik said:


> I'm still very curious about these tests, even if a test project based on the main 'brain' (Kontakt) most likely only is operating in Rosettas emulated universe – and therefore may not show much of these Macs' real capacity.
> 
> Regarding being able to read at max. 150 mb/second: In an imagined scenario; a VI-based project with 50 tracks, that's 150 times 50= 7500 mb/second _(if I get this right) – _which is brilliant. Intel Macs can read at a lot less than that, around 2400/mb second. The M1 Max should be able to double that. But the real question, I guess, is: Will any of the tests done with Kontakt done today tells us much about how these rigs can perform, since Kontakt is written in 'legacy code'? Kontakt simply isn't design to read at M1 Max speeds, and isn't optimised for Apple Silicon at all.
> 
> EDIT: Apples sampler is optimised for Apple Silicon, so a test comparing how that sampler perform on an Apple Silicon Mac vs. on an Intel Mac could maybe give us a hint about how Kontakt or it's successor will behave after having been ported to native M1 code, right?


Vik - I only did my tests after seeing the amazing writeup by @Tak looking into all this.

I'm afraid you've got the wrong end of the stick - but thats likely because I glossed over a bunch of things.

All the testing was done when loading samples at the point when you load a project. It doesn't do them concurrently. The figures we got were the ACTUAL speeds reported while the nuendo projects were loading. The 150MB/s is the total speed. Not times 50.

As I mentioned in the other reply, we have not tested rosetta though I doubt things will improve much.

I don't think kontakt is going to be re-written just for apple silicon. From my understanding, they're just going to do the minimum in order to be able to recompile for M1. I'd love this to be wrong....


----------



## Vik

colony nofi said:


> we are still in Rosetta for our M1's





colony nofi said:


> we have not tested rosetta


I'm confused. Rosetta is working in the background to let you you use apps based on code written for Intel Macs. Neither Nuendo (or Cubase, or Dorico) or Kontakt have been released in native M1 code, so it's IMO unlikely that a combination if any of these apps result in great performance on an M1 (including M1 Pro and M1 Max) Mac.

According to Apple:
"Rosetta is meant to ease the transition to Apple silicon, giving you time to create a universal binary for your app. *It is not a substitute for creating a native version of your app*."

Also:

"If an executable contains only Intel instructions, macOS automatically launches Rosetta and begins the translation process. When translation finishes, the system launches the translated executable in place of the original. However, the translation process takes time, so users might perceive that translated apps launch or *run more slowly at times*".

I wouldn't even consider an Apple Silicon Mac for apps which "NI indicate they were not interested in re-writing" (Kontakt) and which Apple also warn about will 'run more slowly at times'. Handling gigabytes/terabytes of data (samples) in real time isn't compatible with statements like that.

I understand that your tests haven't been made with the Macs that this thread is about – they are made with last years M1 Mac – but still: Since there are no signs of a native version of Nuendo one year after Apple Silicon Macs have been announced, Nuendo + Kontakt + Apple Silicon seems like a very bad idea.


----------



## mussnig

The MacBook Pro 14 and M1 Pro outscore the AMD Ryzen 5 5600U and Intel Core i7-1165G7 when running Geekbench in a Windows 11 VM


It turns out that the MacBook Pro 14 and M1 Pro maintain excellent performance when running Windows 11 in a virtual machine, too. In fact, Apple's new SoC outscores some of the best AMD and Intel laptop processors on the market, despite their advantage of running Windows 11 natively.




www.notebookcheck.net


----------



## khollister

Logic benchmark scores from Music-Prod:











Logic Pro M1 (Pro & Max) Benchmarks - Music-Prod.com


Here is the Logic Pro X Benchmark project file to use. Just download it, run it and see how many tracks you can get to play.




music-prod.com





He is using the TNM benchmark from Gearspace. 16 M1 Max - 185, latest 27 iMac i9 - 136, 16 core current Mac Pro - 265

Although the instruction on the website show “Automatic” for the number of threads, that doesn’t use the efficiency cores in the M1’s. In the video he is correctly selecting the max cores (10 in the case of the Pro/Max). These results seem to track the Geekbench multi core scores fairly well


----------



## Al Maurice

I've never found the meters in DAWs to reflect actual performance.

Anyway according to this test, FL studio seems to perform better on the M1 under these tests.

Ableton it doesn't make much difference which processor you use.

And Logic is almost on par, just slightly edging it on the M1. So perhaps Apple have optimised it for them now.

Any way this is one test for a simple arrangement pop style, and I'm not sure how it will reflect usage for lots of orchestral tracks. Also this is the PRO version, is it the original version released when the M1s were launched for laptops or the newly released one with additional cores?


----------



## PhilA

After reading and watching lots of reviews I’ve decided to sell my 2017 15” i7 (16gb ram 256ssd) MacBook Pro and get the 14” 10 core with 32gb ram and 2tb ssd.
Thankfully I work at a University so can take advantage of Apple Education pricing which saved me just over £400 and with what I should get for the old MacBook Pro the price is acceptable for my amateur pockets 👍🏻
Got to wait a month but that’s cool. I don’t like to rush into purchases like this.


----------



## colony nofi

Vik said:


> I'm confused. Rosetta is working in the background to let you you use apps based on code written for Intel Macs. Neither Nuendo (or Cubase, or Dorico) or Kontakt have been released in native M1 code, so it's IMO unlikely that a combination if any of these apps result in great performance on an M1 (including M1 Pro and M1 Max) Mac.
> 
> According to Apple:
> "Rosetta is meant to ease the transition to Apple silicon, giving you time to create a universal binary for your app. *It is not a substitute for creating a native version of your app*."
> 
> Also:
> 
> "If an executable contains only Intel instructions, macOS automatically launches Rosetta and begins the translation process. When translation finishes, the system launches the translated executable in place of the original. However, the translation process takes time, so users might perceive that translated apps launch or *run more slowly at times*".
> 
> I wouldn't even consider an Apple Silicon Mac for apps which "NI indicate they were not interested in re-writing" (Kontakt) and which Apple also warn about will 'run more slowly at times'. Handling gigabytes/terabytes of data (samples) in real time isn't compatible with statements like that.
> 
> I understand that your tests haven't been made with the Macs that this thread is about – they are made with last years M1 Mac – but still: Since there are no signs of a native version of Nuendo one year after Apple Silicon Macs have been announced, Nuendo + Kontakt + Apple Silicon seems like a very bad idea.


Apologies. I made a booboo typing / thinking too fast. Have edited my post above yours. (Wish there was strikethrough on this forum software....)

I was trying to express that we have *not* tested drive throughput for non-rosetta (ie, native m1) situations. Since kontakt is rosetta, it is kinda a mute point anyway at this stage - at least for our studios.

Anyway. 

My take on the situation for companies such as Steinberg, NI and the like who have absolutely MASSIVE code bases. 

They're not going to re-write. I mean, no one (ish) is. (Exaggeration, but its the spirit of the idea I'm expressing). Not even small devs. 

They are simply going to modify the code to allow it to compile for apple native. This is what most devs are doing in all fields, and it is showing awesome results - people are getting native M1 apps relatively simply compared to some of the fear-mongering that was going around in dev circles early on when we found out about the transition. 

But it also means that for companies like NI, they are unlikely to go in and specifically target segments of code like the file handling and change it for M1. They don't need to. And pieces of code like this don't exist in a single place within the 100000's of lines (possibly millions) but all over the place. 
Indeed, there may not even be a dev on the team who was around when the original methods were written. The man-hours to try and unpick it all and write something new (that still works with the rest of the code) would be astronomical and I doubt worth the cost. I doubt we will see improvements in this side of things unless kontakt undergoes a complete rebuilt, and I've never heard anything from anyone in NI to suggest that is even on the drawing board at this stage.

Meaning.

I personally doubt that even once we get a native version of cubase/nuendo + kontakt (or just kontakt, inside logic) that there will be significant performance increases for disk read and write actions within kontakt. If there is, hats off to NI. But I'm certainly not holding my breath.

To your final point - why is (Rosetta based) Nuendo + Kontakt + Apple Silicon a bad idea? We are running it with zero problems in a surround edit suite for daily sound post use with zero problems and with performance that is only just under our trash-can mac pros. Great for that job. And AFAICT the only thing holding them back for good composition work is RAM, and the new MAX based chips give us 64GB to at least try. I'm at least 2 months off testing that - but I don't see why it wont work great and be ok. Using Rosetta (2) is no where near as problematic as the experience was using Rosetta 1 in the PPC to intel transition. 

Its def ok for prime time.


----------



## Tronam

Good news, iLok native support is right around the corner. Took them long enough. Tons of devs have had native builds of their plugins ready to go even as far back as January, but have been stuck in a holding pattern waiting for iLok to update their protection tools:








iLok To Provide Full Native Apple Silicon Support Soon | Production Expert


Ever since Apple Silicon was announced the team at PACE have been working to get iLok to work natively on Apple Silicon computers. We have an exclusive update.




www.pro-tools-expert.com


----------



## colony nofi

Tronam said:


> Good news, iLok native support is right around the corner. Took them long enough. Tons of devs have had native builds of their plugins ready to go even as far back as January, but have been stuck in a holding pattern waiting for iLok to update their protection tools:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iLok To Provide Full Native Apple Silicon Support Soon | Production Expert
> 
> 
> Ever since Apple Silicon was announced the team at PACE have been working to get iLok to work natively on Apple Silicon computers. We have an exclusive update.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pro-tools-expert.com


* SPECULATION! * I'd also imagine the SB move away from elicenser tech to something new maybe one of the reasons they are dragging their feet on providing native M1 support. Has anyone seen any new announcements about what tech they are going with? I haven't seen much - though I haven't really asked around much either. Given elicenser is being deprecated, I CANNOT see SB releasing native M1 code until they have their new solution ready. How could they if elicenser is not longer being developed?


----------



## khollister

colony nofi said:


> * SPECULATION! * I'd also imagine the SB move away from elicenser tech to something new maybe one of the reasons they are dragging their feet on providing native M1 support. Has anyone seen any new announcements about what tech they are going with? I haven't seen much - though I haven't really asked around much either. Given elicenser is being deprecated, I CANNOT see SB releasing native M1 code until they have their new solution ready. How could they if elicenser is not longer being developed?


VSL, who is moving to iLok, has stated their AS native versions will happen after they complete the move to iLok. Liquidsonics has publicly stated they have everything ported over but are waiting on Pace to release the final native API's they need.

Unless Steinberg has decided to use some other challenge-response solution, I can't imagine them not using iLok (the cloud and/or machine install options would satisfy their "no dongle" promise).


----------



## Vik

colony nofi said:


> Wish there was strikethrough on this forum software....)


me too, because then I wouldn't have to type this code to achieve it:









> My take on the situation for companies such as Steinberg, NI and the like who have absolutely MASSIVE code bases. They're not going to re-write. I mean, no one (ish) is. (Exaggeration, but its the spirit of the idea I'm expressing). Not even small devs.




Whether they are rewriting the code or modifying it to allow to compile for Apple native may not be that important if the results are awesome in both cases?




> I doubt we will see improvements in this side of things unless kontakt undergoes a complete rebuilt, and I've never heard anything from anyone in NI to suggest that is even on the drawing board at this stage.


I have no idea, and dislike the secrecy around it. But for many of us, Kontakt is the central station for what we do, and if NI doesn't make a new app which can import Kontakt presets, or they make a native version of Kontakt without significant read/write improvement, most people on this forum will have a problem, unless all libraries will be ported over to something else. Apple has the finances and brainpower it takes to create a sampler that can read Kontakt presets and which offers great read/write speeds. Apple also likes to surprise, and if there won't be a usable Kontakt version for Apple Silicon soon, and Apple creates something useful, that would solve the problem.

"To your final point - why is (Rosetta based) Nuendo + Kontakt + Apple Silicon a bad idea?"

According to you, the read/write performance is far from what users will expect on Apple Silicon on the M1. And as you just wrote: the RAM thing is holding things back for 'good composition work', and you earlier wrote, about M1, that "Kontakt on its own is EXTREMELY slow at reading off drives". We don't expect something as good/bad as we have today when buying into new technology, we want something much better, something which easily can handle stuff we may have problems with today, like more dynamic layers, more vibrato layers, trouble free layering of multiple Kontakt instances one the same track and so on.

I'm trying to interpret what you wrote about 'holding back' for good compositional work, 'extremely slow', 'def OK for prime time' and so on, and guess the confusing part is that this is both about M1 and the newer chips at the same time. We agree that there's a RAM 'thing', but bottom line is that we (at least I) don't know how Kontakt deals with large sample libraries on a M1 Pro or Max computer. I created a poll about M1 track count (with orch. libraries) a while ago, and the results were confusing...





...and so far, I haven't seen anyone sharing anything about VI track counts on the newest Macs. Anyone, please?

If NI doesn't do anything with Kontakt to achieve great read performance, we'll have to move over to libraries that at some point will be ready for Apple Silicon, wait for Apple Sampler to be able to read Kontakt presets*, or stay with Intel stay with Intel for now (edited!).

*This would mean having to deal with copyright issues and is therefore unlikely.


----------



## khollister

Vik said:


> If NI doesn't do anything with Kontakt to achieve great read performance, we'll have to move over to libraries that at some point will be ready for Apple Silicon, wait for Apple Sampler to be able to read Kontakt presets*, or stay with Intel.
> 
> *This would mean having to deal with copyright issues and is therefore unlikely.


Uh, sticking with Intel (or even moving to Windows) doesn't solve any of this. I can guarantee if NI doesn't rearchitect Kontakt, and I seriously doubt they will any time soon, there will be little to no difference in read/write speeds on any platform/OS.

There are plenty of good reasons to move to AS for Mac based composers without getting tied in knots about Kontakt taking advantage of the SSD speeds.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Whilst I have a lot of money tied up ion Kontakt libraries, I am using Synchron Player more and more these days.

NI haven't even brought in a straightforward way of organising libraries in the left panel. They must be hemmed in at all sides by ancient code.....


----------



## chrisboy

> Apple also likes to surprise, and if there won't be a usable Kontakt version for Apple Silicon soon, and Apple creates something useful, that would solve the problem.


I would guess Apple could not care less about making a ARM compatible replacement for KONTAKT - why should they even bother about it as it's clearly NI's problem.


----------



## Vik

chrisboy said:


> I would guess Apple could not care less about making a ARM compatible replacement for KONTAKT - why should they even bother about it as it's clearly NI's problem.


Some people assume that NI won't do it. In that case, an Apple stund like that would contribute to more pro users migrating (sooner) to Apple Silicon Macs. But it's problematic, of course – NI wouldn't allow anyone to create a product which allowed users to copy protected libraries and use them freely in Logic.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Do I care whether PACE updates the iLok to run natively on M1 Macs?

Serious question!

Okay, maybe it's a little bit rhetorical, but iLoks don't eat computer resources as far as I know.


----------



## Nimrod7

chrisboy said:


> I would guess Apple could not care less about making a ARM compatible replacement for KONTAKT - why should they even bother about it as it's clearly NI's problem.


There are cases that Apple is helping companies to move their codebases.
I can think RedShift & Octane (3D Renderers) that presented in the Apple event were having help from apple engineers, as well as Blender. But those are challenging cases, related to Metal (which don't have a huge community around it), and the desire from Apple to please graphics professionals and move away from OpenGL / NVidia.

If NI have just old code, I guess they will not care.


----------



## jcrosby

chrisboy said:


> I would guess Apple could not care less about making a ARM compatible replacement for KONTAKT - why should they even bother about it as it's clearly NI's problem.


Not to mention - Why would Apple bother paying whatever license fee were necessary to NI just to satisfy a minority of their users?

Unlike Kontakt being an edge case for Apple, macos is not an edge case for NI... So what incentive would NI have to give Apple any legal wiggle room to disrupt them out of the macos market?

The idea that Apple would somehow save the day is unrealistic.


----------



## khollister

Interesting comparison between 14 and 16 MBP as far as cooling and fan noise by Max Tech. The 16 definitely has an advantage in terms of thermal capacity


----------



## Tronam

I'm not expecting Native-Instruments to rewrite Kontakt just because of Apple Silicon, but it's one of multiple rising pressure points on NI to modernize it for the future of computing which extends beyond just faster SSD storage solutions and scalable interfaces, but also different processor architectures and leveraging GPU compute. They can't just rest on their laurels forever. Many developers are already making their own bespoke sampler engines to bypass Kontakt completely.


----------



## GtrString

I just got an iPad with the M1 processor this Halloween, and it’s a beast! I run an spec’ed out 2019 Mac Mini, and will start saving for a new silicon Mac next time. Im sure the devs will get to updating, Apple silicon is not going away, and the Apple crowd is pretty big, so Im sure they want to cater for us.


----------



## David Kudell

Latest iMac Pro rumors:








'iMac Pro' Coming in 2022 With M1 Pro/Max Chips, 27-Inch Mini-LED Display, MacBook Pro Ports and More


The next-generation iMac that's in the works could be called the "iMac Pro," according to leaker Dylandkt. The device will feature the...




www.macrumors.com


----------



## emilio_n

David Kudell said:


> Latest iMac Pro rumors:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'iMac Pro' Coming in 2022 With M1 Pro/Max Chips, 27-Inch Mini-LED Display, MacBook Pro Ports and More
> 
> 
> The next-generation iMac that's in the works could be called the "iMac Pro," according to leaker Dylandkt. The device will feature the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macrumors.com


This will be my option. Still need to wait maybe 6-8 months more but now that the MacBook Pro has close to 2 months waiting list, I think will be worth waiting for the iMac Pro. Will be a looong wait!


----------



## Nimrod7

emilio_n said:


> has close to 2 months waiting list,


Some standard configurations (mostly the mid-low tiers), are available for pick-up in apple stores around the world. However availability is very limited.


----------



## emilio_n

Nimrod7 said:


> Some standard configurations (mostly the mid-low tiers), are available for pick-up in apple stores around the world. However availability is very limited.



Yes... Yesterday I went to one Apple store here in Hong Kong and they have available the base models for both 14" Pro and 16" Max but I am looking for 64Gb of RAM. Now I am running an old iMac with 32Mb more or less smooth for not very demanding templates, so the idea is to move to something better that I can use for the next 4-5 years.

Thanks for the info in any case!


----------



## FrozenIcicle

khollister said:


> Interesting comparison between 14 and 16 MBP as far as cooling and fan noise by Max Tech. The 16 definitely has an advantage in terms of thermal capacity



no one really doing max comparisons sigh


----------



## Tronam

After much waffling and deliberation I finally put in my 16" order. Ship times are still 4-5 weeks, but hopefully they can fulfill them a little sooner before the holidays. I still think the 14" is a more ideal form factor for a laptop, but with displays this impressive I had to go larger. Considering how rarely the fan even turned on with my M1 MBP, I’m expecting a quiet powerhouse which should be able replace my iMac as well. I look forward to stress testing the M1 Max and seeing how large of a template it can handle.


----------



## kenose

David Kudell said:


> Latest iMac Pro rumors:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'iMac Pro' Coming in 2022 With M1 Pro/Max Chips, 27-Inch Mini-LED Display, MacBook Pro Ports and More
> 
> 
> The next-generation iMac that's in the works could be called the "iMac Pro," according to leaker Dylandkt. The device will feature the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macrumors.com



I really hope these (and the mac mini refresh…) support a full 128gb of RAM. The new MBPs are so tempting but I’m trying to hold out for the desktop models…


----------



## Al Maurice

Most of the top end desktop models seem to still be with Intel, as they're fully expandable still, which is important for the target market who use these for rendering.

ARM has always been a high performant, low energy consuming processor. But as I found in the late 80's and 90's when they were last on the desktop, they only scale so far, then the likes of Intel take over and captured the market place. 

For a film production my dad benchmarked all the available machines at the time, and the Acorn computer out performed them all as it could push 32 bits natively and could handly fast transformations which was needed for one scene in the script. The others were stuck at 16bit. But ARM's memory management could only handle so much RAM, then it couldn't scale any further. And it seems this is where we find ourselves once again. Hopefully Apple can address this soon, without resorting to one super large chip!


----------



## colony nofi

Vik said:


> me too, because then I wouldn't have to type this code to achieve it:


I'l try remember. Thanks.


Vik said:


> Whether they are rewriting the code or modifying it to allow to compile for Apple native may not be that important if the results are awesome in both cases?


In regards to read performance by konakt, I don't see any reason to think we will see any large performance difference between an m1 native version vs what we see at the moment running rosetta 2. There's no technical reason to see large differences unless there were complete re-writes to those parts of the code which are involved with reading samples. And to do that as far as I'm aware is an enormous project for which last time I heard there was no definite roadmap. I'm not privy to the machinations of NI and their decisions, but they're very savvy operators. Whatever they decide to do will be done with one eye on innovation, another on market share, and another on their market perception. They know their market very well - and we vi-controllers are just one part of it.


Vik said:


> I have no idea, and dislike the secrecy around it.


Ah - as much as I don't like it, I understand it. 


Vik said:


> But for many of us, Kontakt is the central station for what we do, and if NI doesn't make a new app which can import Kontakt presets, or they make a native version of Kontakt without significant read/write improvement, most people on this forum will have a problem,


Why is that? While I appreciate the want for better performance, its not overly impacting many of us for day to day use. Its not ideal that its not better - but is it a problem? Most people don't know what the true speeds of reading samples is - and the only impact is that it takes a little longer to open a project than it would if the feature were more efficient. I don't know anyone who is impacted by the read speed while playing back a session. 

So my take is - would it be nice if the konakt engine was more efficient in loading a patch? For sure. I'd welcome it with open arms. I'd jump at it. I don't use VEP anymore like so many here - but if you choose to go that route it bypasses the issue of slow loading since most will only do it once a day.

And thats about the end of it. The situation is identical on intel pcs, intel macs, and it will be on m1.



Vik said:


> unless all libraries will be ported over to something else. Apple has the finances and brainpower it takes to create a sampler that can read Kontakt presets and which offers great read/write speeds. Apple also likes to surprise, and if there won't be a usable Kontakt version for Apple Silicon soon, and Apple creates something useful, that would solve the problem.


That seems a little over the top no? I might misunderstand? The way I see it (and have tested) there is a VERY usable version of kontakt already on apple silicon by using rosetta2. They'll have a native version soon enough, and it will be usable like any other version. It doesn't work as fast as it might.



Vik said:


> "To your final point - why is (Rosetta based) Nuendo + Kontakt + Apple Silicon a bad idea?"
> 
> According to you, the read/write performance is far from what users will expect on Apple Silicon on the M1.


I don't know that people expect the full performance delta? People here have been using NVME drives over standard SATA III SSD's for years already - with their performance delta, yet see only small gains between the two on PC and mac platforms with kontakt. There's some frustration, but I've never seen an expectation that it will be any different. So why that expectation by most users with M1 macs?



Vik said:


> And as you just wrote: the RAM thing is holding things back for 'good composition work', and you earlier wrote, about M1, that "Kontakt on its own is EXTREMELY slow at reading off drives".


All relative right? Yes, its slow compared to what it potentially could be, but it doesn't stop it from being an extremely useful piece of software. 
Ram? I think I've written here a fair amount that while I've had occasion to need more than 64GB ram (even up to 256 on a particular project), and there ARE some composers I know who use even more than that... most people will get on just fine with 64GB, and those that don't will need to wait for other machines by mac if they want to stay on the mac platform (or get an intel mac pro, which I still specify for some jobs even today). I think any reference I made to ram as above was in reference to the m1 mini / original m1 computers, which were restricted to 16GB (and even then, that can be useful for some projects)
We are darting around a bunch of different topics here.



Vik said:


> We don't expect something as good/bad as we have today when buying into new technology, we want something much better, something which easily can handle stuff we may have problems with today, like more dynamic layers, more vibrato layers, trouble free layering of multiple Kontakt instances one the same track and so on.


And I don't believe any of those are impacted by the slow loading. Its just slow loading.



Vik said:


> I'm trying to interpret what you wrote about 'holding back' for good compositional work,


Thats in regards to 16GB ram, and for many composers, its not enough.


Vik said:


> 'extremely slow',


Thats relative to what it could be, not what its like to use (especially once you've loaded a session)


Vik said:


> 'def OK for prime time'


It is


Vik said:


> and so on, and guess the confusing part is that this is both about M1 and the newer chips at the same time.


Indeed. Hope I've made things a little clearer.


Vik said:


> We agree that there's a RAM 'thing', but bottom line is that we (at least I) don't know how Kontakt deals with large sample libraries on a M1 Pro or Max computer.


I look forward to testing that - but I don't imagine it will be much different to another mac with 64GB of ram. When we get an M1 Max and I get enough time I will run it through our internal benchmarks. I'm excited personally. I do enough work in the field where I carry a mac pro cylinder to be excited to be able to potenitally transfer most of that work to a mbp. My current 2018 can't handle what I personally need. 



Vik said:


> I created a poll about M1 track count (with orch. libraries) a while ago, and the results were confusing...


Yeah - they are. I agree. Our own testing would be meaningless in this poll as well - but I can 100% say that the m1 mini works exactly as I might expect. The M1 with 16GB is a very capable machine, but if you need more than 16GB of ram on another mac, then you'll need more on an m based machine, so the m1 mini won't work for you.



Vik said:


> If NI doesn't do anything with Kontakt to achieve great read performance, we'll have to move over to libraries that at some point will be ready for Apple Silicon, wait for Apple Sampler to be able to read Kontakt presets*, or stay with Intel.


That's your opinion. I don't share it in any way. 

I'm not sure I've been particularly helpful, but I hope I have in some way.


----------



## Technostica

Al Maurice said:


> Most of the top end desktop models seem to still be with Intel, as they're fully expandable still, which is important for the target market who use these for rendering.
> 
> ARM has always been a high performant, low energy consuming processor. But as I found in the late 80's and 90's when they were last on the desktop, they only scale so far, then the likes of Intel take over and captured the market place.
> 
> For a film production my dad benchmarked all the available machines at the time, and the Acorn computer out performed them all as it could push 32 bits natively and could handly fast transformations which was needed for one scene in the script. The others were stuck at 16bit. But ARM's memory management could only handle so much RAM, then it couldn't scale any further. And it seems this is where we find ourselves once again. Hopefully Apple can address this soon, without resorting to one super large chip!


There is no inherent limit with ARM beyond the RAM module sizes and practical space considerations. 
There are ARM servers supporting 4TB per socket already and that will increase once DDR5 is supported. 

Curious to see what Apple does with the Mac Pro though.


----------



## colony nofi

Technostica said:


> There is no inherent limit with ARM beyond the RAM module sizes and practical space considerations.
> There are ARM servers supporting 4TB per socket already and that will increase once DDR5 is supported.
> 
> Curious to see what Apple does with the Mac Pro though.


Yes yes!
And I’m incredibly curious as to the direction they take. I don’t see them leaving the vfx community behind… and they are one of the few places where TB scale memory is needed in the creative arts. Indeed, the last Mac Pro was tested prior to it being public - inside a vfx house… that kind of relationship doesn’t disappear on a whim. 

(I often would be taken back by the vitriol over the base 2019 Mac Pro price… they’re bloody amazing machines. Unlikely value for money for composers aside from a few, but for others they were incredible. It takes quite the pc to support 1.5TB of ram, and have the graphics setup / pcie setup that it has. Similar Dell and HP machines were more expensive as at launch date. The apples are a little long in the tooth now, but I know of companies still purchasing them, so they must make a good business case in certain circumstances still. Indeed I spec’d one last week for a uni immersive sound lab… it came out on top of our cost/benefit matrix… though in that case a HP was very close and came down to what the students / creatives would prefer to use OS wise.


----------



## Vik

colony nofi said:


> would it be nice if the konakt engine was more efficient in loading a patch? For sure. I'd welcome it with open arms. I'd jump at it.


I'd jump at it as well, and since an M1 Max costs more than $7000 here with the specs I ideally want to go for, I'm simply looking at the pros ans cons, with one particular thing in mind: I'd keep this Mac for some years, and will use it for libraries that are more memory hungry than those I use now.
Since we'd both jump at more efficient patch loading (which is important for a lot of things, for instance for how fast one can freeze/unfreeze tracks), I'm both curious about what a current high-end MBP will give us for use with large Kontakt libraries.


colony nofi said:


> I can 100% say that the m1 mini works exactly as I might expect


In the only test I've witnessed in real life, the M1 Mini had severe problems playing back more than 4-6 Kontakt tracks with orchestral sounds. That test was limited, eg. by the M1s lack of memory, so I'm not drawing any conclusions – but there are still fresh claims about the Apple Silicon Macs being able to get away with less RAM than their Intel counterparts. I haven't seen any documentation of that, so I assume it's wrong. 32 gb will be 32 gb, which = bottleneck for orch. libraries.

For the records, I'm very happy that Apple is moving over to ARM, I'm just trying to find out what to realistically expect. This thread/your info is therefore very useful, eg. due to what you have written about extremely slow (but expected) read performance, so thanks of sharing that. Maybe it doesn't matter much, but it's still good to know what to not expect.



colony nofi said:


> That's your opinion. I don't share it in any way.


I changed "stay with Intel' to 'stay with Intel for now', because thats what I meant. 

For orchestral work with many multi layers instruments, 20+ instruments, loads of mic positions, layering of instruments with multiple mic positions and multiple dynamic and vibrato layers etc, memory is crucial. When freezing/unfreezing tracks/opening projects, copying between projects (I don't know how Nuendo works, but if you keep two projects open at the same time, things get very syrup-y) load times for such projects are also important.

I can't stay with my current 2010-Mac, the 2.66 processor isn't powerful enough to let me do what I need to do without clicks, pops, voice stealing and so on. And – even if working with only string libraries, there's a huge difference between 32 and 64 gb RAM. Since I need something which is fully usable now, and not early next year, an i7 iMac will most likely be my replacement for the current 12-core, even if there are many pros with ARM. Since the M1 Mini we tried had problems with playing back 5-6 tracks, maybe the new Pro/Max versions can play back twice – or four times – that, but I can't gamble on spending a lot of money on something and find that a better or less pricey product (eg. a much faster Mini) will be launched before I can use my current VI-instruments, or find that there are fewer good reasons to go ARM right now than I thought. 

Once iLok, the eLicenser, feedback from existing users about Kontakt performance in the new Macs is available, it will be easier to make a decision – not about _if_ want an M1 Mac, but about _when_ I'll want it. No drama, it's mainly about when to wait and when to move forward. 



colony nofi said:


> They'll have a native version soon enough, and it will be usable like any other version. It doesn't work as fast as it might.


If it will be 'usable like any other version', what do you and others consider being the main reason to switch to Apple silicon right now for projects like those I described above? 

And what will be the main benefits of a native Kontakt version over using Kontakt in Rosetta2? There must be some benefits, otherwise NI wouldn't have been working on a native version.


----------



## Sheridan

Vik said:


> I'd jump at it as well, and since an M1 Max costs more than $7000 here with the specs I ideally want to go for, I'm simply looking at the pros ans cons, with one particular thing in mind: I'd keep this Mac for some years, and will use it for libraries that are more memory hungry than those I use now.
> Since we'd both jump at more efficient patch loading (which is important for a lot of things, for instance for how fast one can freeze/unfreeze tracks), I'm both curious about what a current high-end MBP will give us for use with large Kontakt libraries.
> 
> In the only test I've witnessed in real life, the M1 Mini had severe problems playing back more than 4-6 Kontakt tracks with orchestral sounds. That test was limited, eg. by the M1s lack of memory, so I'm not drawing any conclusions – but there are still fresh claims about the Apple Silicon Macs being able to get away with less RAM than their Intel counterparts. I haven't seen any documentation of that, so I assume it's wrong. 32 gb will be 32 gb, which = bottleneck for orch. libraries.
> 
> For the records, I'm very happy that Apple is moving over to ARM, I'm just trying to find out what to realistically expect. This thread/your info is therefore very useful, eg. due to what you have written about extremely slow (but expected) read performance, so thanks of sharing that. Maybe it doesn't matter much, but it's still good to know what to not expect.
> 
> 
> I changed "stay with Intel' to 'stay with Intel for now', because thats what I meant.
> 
> For orchestral work with many multi layers instruments, 20+ instruments, loads of mic positions, layering of instruments with multiple mic positions and multiple dynamic and vibrato layers etc, memory is crucial. When freezing/unfreezing tracks/opening projects, copying between projects (I don't know how Nuendo works, but if you keep two projects open at the same time, things get very syrup-y) load times for such projects are also important.
> 
> I can't stay with my current 2010-Mac, the 2.66 processor isn't powerful enough to let me do what I need to do without clicks, pops, voice stealing and so on, and even if working with only string libraries, there's a huge difference between 32 and 64 gb RAM. Since I need something which is fully usable now, and not early next year, an i7 iMac will most likely be my replacement for the current 12-core, even if there are many pros with the ARM chips. Since the M1 Mini had problems with playing back 5-6 tracks, maybe the M1X can play back twice – or four times – that, but I can't gamble on spending a lot of money on something and find that a better or less pricey product (eg. a much faster Mini) will be launched before I can use my current VI-instruments, or that there are fewer good reasons to go ARM right now than I thought. Once iLok, the eLicenser, feedback from existing users about Kontakt performance in the new Macs, it will be easier to make a decision – not about if want an M1 Mac more than an Intel iMac, but about when I'll want that. No drama, it's mainly about when to wait and when to move forward.
> 
> 
> If it will be 'usable like any other version', what do you and others consider being the main reason to switch to Apple silicon right now for projects like those I described above – and what will be the main benefits of a native Kontakt version over using Kontakt in Rosetta2?


Well, I received my 14-inch M1 Max (64 GB RAM, 4 TB SSD) this week and started setting up my templates in both Logic and Cubase. Hundreds of Kontakts, Omnisphere, Sine, Fabfilter instances and it all works fine under Monterey and Rosetta 2. I run all my libraries from the fast internal SSD.

I haven't written anything taxing yet, but it is definitely snappier than my previous i9 16-inch. Once we get native versions of Kontakt and Cubase then the performance difference should be much more noticeable. The main benefit right now is how silent this thing is. Power draw is lower, e.g. Cubase idling was around 30 W compared to 15 W now (although it can still go up to 60-80 W) but the fans haven't kicked in. That used to drive me crazy with the i9.

Really happy with this upgrade


----------



## benwiggy

Vik said:


> In the only test I've witnessed in real life, the M1 Mini had severe problems playing back more than 4-6 Kontakt tracks with orchestral sounds. That test was limited, eg. by the M1s lack of memory, so I'm not drawing any conclusions – but there are still fresh claims about the Apple Silicon Macs being able to get away with less RAM than their Intel counterparts. I haven't seen any documentation of that, so I assume it's wrong. 32 gb will be 32 gb, which = bottleneck for orch. libraries.


I bought the 16" MBP with 16 Gb of RAM. Playing back 12 tracks in Dorico (SINE Player, Miroire library), each of which was around 0.5 Gb of samples, gave me this:







Steinberg's VST Engine was using an expected 6 Gb of RAM, plus the Dorico app was on c. 1 Gb. And obviously I had a bunch of other stuff open at the time. But let's be generous and say that my audio processes were approaching 8 Gb: half the RAM. And clearly there's another 6 Gb in use, bringing us up to nearly 14 Gb.

Memory compression wasn't quite in the red, but it was 'significant' -- though the CPU has hardware to do the compression/uncompression, so I don't think there's a performance penalty for high levels of compression. There's a bit of swap, but that's only a problem when it has to load it back in (and the disk speed is around 6 Gbps!) Don't forget that MacOS tries to use as much RAM as it can.

There was no stuttering or performance issues, and I could switch between Dorico and other apps instantly while playing back.

So it's quite possible that the M1 can perform high levels of memory compression and disk caching 'invisibly' -- and this may be where the "extra memory magic" comes from.

Despite all this, I did send it back to the shop, and have ordered a 32 Gb RAM model. Mostly, just to 'future proof' the laptop (given the price!) and make sure that RAM isn't going to be an issue; but also because otherwise I would have spent my life staring at memory graphs.

Apples and Oranges, perhaps, but my Intel Mac Mini with 32 Gb RAM can handle the same piece (and loads of other apps open) with much lower memory pressure. Interestingly, the amount of compressed memory and swap is not that different.


----------



## Al Maurice

Windows does this too, lots of the modern OS's preallocate memory in advance to help the programs run optimally. It's almost as though they treat the memory as one mega ram disk. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Windows eventually releases what it's not using. This got me confused me at first until it was explained to me by someone at desktop support. I find it's probably best to benchmark your software and see what the programs are actually using, with the performance and allocation tools instead.


----------



## Bakhtin

Check this out - its not really about audio but very interesting nonetheless:


----------



## hayvel

Bakhtin said:


> Check this out - its not really about audio but very interesting nonetheless:



Crazy how efficient swapping is. I wonder if the ssd can actually fully substitute for ram at the speed it delivers. I mean, is it even necessary to have more than 16gb in the vi composing usecase....


----------



## danwool

Sheridan said:


> Well, I received my 14-inch M1 Max (64 GB RAM, 4 TB SSD) this week and started setting up my templates in both Logic and Cubase. Hundreds of Kontakts, Omnisphere, Sine, Fabfilter instances and it all works fine under Monterey and Rosetta 2. I run all my libraries from the fast internal SSD.
> 
> I haven't written anything taxing yet, but it is definitely snappier than my previous i9 16-inch. Once we get native versions of Kontakt and Cubase then the performance difference should be much more noticeable. The main benefit right now is how silent this thing is. Power draw is lower, e.g. Cubase idling was around 30 W compared to 15 W now (although it can still go up to 60-80 W) but the fans haven't kicked in. That used to drive me crazy with the i9.
> 
> Really happy with this upgrade


Congrats! It was about GD time someone in this thread actually received one of these things!  I'm considering this same config, so any further reports are appreciated. At this point I'm more concerned about Monterey compatibility than I am with AS's - AS and Rosetta 2 have been around long enough that (almost) everything I need _was_ working.

Glad you're happy. Keep reports coming if you have time. ...hopefully they'll be joined with a lot more soon.


----------



## tsk

So the only way to use most of Native Instruments stuff on a new Macbook Pro is through Rosetta?

Does this mean that we still can't take advantage of the new processor natively yet?

That's very disappointing if so.


----------



## rnb_2

tsk said:


> So the only way to use most of Native Instruments stuff on a new Macbook Pro is through Rosetta?
> 
> Does this mean that we still can't take advantage of the new processor natively yet?
> 
> That's very disappointing if so.


All code running on the Apple Silicon Macs is native - some of it is just translated from x64 to arm64 on first run, and so is not as optimized as it could be if done by hand. Rosetta 2 is very different from Rosetta, which emulated PPC code on Intel, and was quite slow (but still usable for something like MS Word/Excel).

The Adobe apps ran fine before the Universal versions were released earlier this year, and were completely usable - they were slightly faster on M1 than the same app running on a 2018 i7 Mac mini. Once the Universal versions were released, they got a bit faster, but not dramatically so - I don't have the exact figures, but I believe it was less than 20% for most things; a nice bump for most things, but not night-and-day different.


----------



## tsk

rnb_2 said:


> All code running on the Apple Silicon Macs is native - some of it is just translated from x64 to arm64 on first run, and so is not as optimized as it could be if done by hand. Rosetta 2 is very different from Rosetta, which emulated PPC code on Intel, and was quite slow (but still usable for something like MS Word/Excel).
> 
> The Adobe apps ran fine before the Universal versions were released earlier this year, and were completely usable - they were slightly faster on M1 than the same app running on a 2018 i7 Mac mini. Once the Universal versions were released, they got a bit faster, but not dramatically so - I don't have the exact figures, but I believe it was less than 20% for most things; a nice bump for most things, but not night-and-day different.


I see what you're saying, but personally if I'm going to spend $3k plus on a new machine I would want to take full advantage of its performance. Rosetta 2 means installing something else on the machine and not getting full performance. I'm not saying it's any one company's particular fault, it's just frustrating is all.

Hopefully before too long music applications and plugins will be supported without Rosetta 2 on the M1 chips.


----------



## Nimrod7

tsk said:


> Rosetta 2 means installing something else on the machine and not getting full performance. I'm not saying it's any one company's particular fault, it's just frustrating is all.


It's a different architecture, and it requires a lot of effort from developers to translate what's in existence already. 
Some software will not made it to native, if their codebases are old, or the revenue is low and not worth the time. 

If you have a machine that can survive for the next 2 years, stick with it, and move to Apple Silicon later.


----------



## Tronam

tsk said:


> I see what you're saying, but personally if I'm going to spend $3k plus on a new machine I would want to take full advantage of its performance. Rosetta 2 means installing something else on the machine and not getting full performance. I'm not saying it's any one company's particular fault, it's just frustrating is all.
> 
> Hopefully before too long music applications and plugins will be supported without Rosetta 2 on the M1 chips.


It's totally understandable to want to wait out a transition like this since it's still incomplete and many devs have not yet finished optimizing their plugins. There are just a lot of misconceptions about Rosetta 2 and how it works. When an Intel app is first launched R2 will translate and convert it over to a brand new binary. This is why the very first launch takes a little longer than usual. From that point forward the program will run natively. In general the performance is very impressive, often better than how it used to run on earlier Intel Macs, and in some cases the "official" native version may not yield that much better results. Often the devs can eek out better performance though by hand optimizing them. Over the past year it has almost felt like my computer was getting progressively faster as the programs kept improving.


----------



## khollister

danwool said:


> Congrats! It was about GD time someone in this thread actually received one of these things!  I'm considering this same config, so any further reports are appreciated. At this point I'm more concerned about Monterey compatibility than I am with AS's - AS and Rosetta 2 have been around long enough that (almost) everything I need _was_ working.
> 
> Glad you're happy. Keep reports coming if you have time. ...hopefully they'll be joined with a lot more soon.


The only Monterey issues I have read about are the black plugin GUI's with VSL and some XLN stuff. VSL is on it, Ben posted a day or two ago they think they found the problem, so I imagine a fix is a matter of days/weeks, not months.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Bakhtin said:


> Check this out - its not really about audio but very interesting nonetheless:



What does it say?

Video is great, but 20 minutes of some guy explaining RAM isn't on my agenda.


----------



## Technostica

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What does it say?
> 
> Video is great, but 20 minutes of some guy explaining RAM isn't on my agenda.


Tell me about it.
So much easier and quicker having a webpage where you can jump to the salient data.
But that's what the kids like!


----------



## jcrosby

Tronam said:


> Often the devs can eek out better performance though by hand optimizing them.


And this circles back to the point made by colony nofi... It all rests on the shoulders of NI pouring through millions of lines of code.

Given that basic functionality - quickload has been slow/broken for close to a decade - people have been complaining about text size and GUI resizability for years, etc... I just don't see NI making any major effort to optimize Kontakt's performance anytime soon regardless of OS, CPU architecture, etc.

If it runs noticeably better than on all intel macs that's plenty alright with me...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Technostica said:


> Tell me about it.
> So much easier and quicker having a webpage where you can jump to the salient data.
> But that's what the kids like!



Video can be great, but I went to first grade and learned to read.

And in this case it seems like the relevant information would be one sentence.


----------



## benwiggy

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What does it say?
> 
> Video is great, but 20 minutes of some guy explaining RAM isn't on my agenda.


It basically demonstrates taxing both the 16 and 32 Gb machines with a variety of tasks: loading up several pages in Safari and Chrome, images in LightRoom and Photoshop, a project in Logic, and even some 4K video in Final Cut Pro, all at once. Then, while videos and Logic are playing, he processes images in Lightroom and exports the final video from FCP.

The 16 Gb model's performance was almost identical, usually around 1 or 2 seconds slower, (around 1% of total time). 'Visually', performance was identical, with no stuttering, delay, or noticeable re-loading. Swap usage and memory compression levels were obviously much higher.

It's extremely impressive, though I can't help but think that some tasks would still benefit from more RAM. And of all the tasks, audio samples is likely to be one of them.

I think it was Wallace Simpson who said "you can never be too thin or have too much RAM". 

As for NI and the whole code conversion thing: it's just like 2006 and the switch to Intel, all over again. Some companies ignored Apple's warnings that they were going to change architectures; they ignored Apple's warnings about which APIs they should be using, and which ones were deprecated. And then, after several years of warnings, Apple pulled the plug on Rosetta, and some companies found themselves with software that didn't work.
Users blamed Apple for 'suddenly' breaking their software, which is why, in the run-up to removing 32-bit, Apple warned the users with "this software needs to be updated" alerts.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

benwiggy said:


> It basically demonstrates taxing both the 16 and 32 Gb machines with a variety of tasks: loading up several pages in Safari and Chrome, images in LightRoom and Photoshop, a project in Logic, and even some 4K video in Final Cut Pro, all at once. Then, while videos and Logic are playing, he processes images in Lightroom and exports the final video from FCP.
> 
> The 16 Gb model's performance was almost identical, usually around 1 or 2 seconds slower, (around 1% of total time). 'Visually', performance was identical, with no stuttering, delay, or noticeable re-loading. Swap usage and memory compression levels were obviously much higher.


Thanks Ben.

Well, if you're not maxing out your RAM then you wouldn't expect it to make any difference.

He should try loading 13GB of sample libraries and then run the test on a 16GB machine. I suspect he won't like it when the machine goes to virtual memory because it runs out of memory! That'll be a much shorter video. 

But the CPU performance sounds pretty impressive.


----------



## rnb_2

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Thanks Ben.
> 
> Well, if you're not maxing out your RAM then you wouldn't expect it to make any difference.
> 
> He should try loading 13GB of sample libraries and then run the test on a 16GB machine. I suspect he won't like it when the machine goes to virtual memory because it runs out of memory! That'll be a much shorter video.
> 
> But the CPU performance sounds pretty impressive.


No, that's the thing - he is more than maxing out the RAM (swap was almost equal to actual RAM on the 16GB machine at times), but the performance was still almost equal for most tasks. I still wouldn't recommend going with the 16GB machine for the vast majority of VI-C users, but it was interesting to see how little effect RAM had on his benchmarks.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

rnb_2 said:


> No, that's the thing - he is more than maxing out the RAM (swap was almost equal to actual RAM on the 16GB machine at times), but the performance was still almost equal for most tasks. I still wouldn't recommend going with the 16GB machine for the vast majority of VI-C users, but it was interesting to see how little effect RAM had on his benchmarks.


Oh!

But was he loading, say, 40GB of samples?


----------



## rnb_2

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Oh!
> 
> But was he loading, say, 40GB of samples?


No - he's not a composer. He did run as much heavy stuff as he could think of at the same time, though - Lightroom Classic + Photoshop + Final Cut Pro + multiple tabs in Chrome + multiple tabs in Safari + Xcode, with benchmarks for a Lightroom export, a couple Final Cut exports, and an Xcode build under memory stress.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

rnb_2 said:


> No - he's not a composer. He did run as much heavy stuff as he could think of at the same time, though - Lightroom Classic + Photoshop + Final Cut Pro + multiple tabs in Chrome + multiple tabs in Safari + Xcode, with benchmarks for a Lightroom export, a couple Final Cut exports, and an Xcode build under memory stress.


Impressive... but it still seems unlikely that 16GB is going to do the job if you're loading more than about 13GB of samples.

I'd love to be wrong, of course!


----------



## benwiggy

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Well, if you're not maxing out your RAM then you wouldn't expect it to make any difference.
> 
> He should try loading 13GB of sample libraries and then run the test on a 16GB machine. I suspect he won't like it when the machine goes to virtual memory because it runs out of memory! That'll be a much shorter video.


Both machines were using all their RAM -- and then some. The point is: the machine that was swapping and compressing twice as hard was, essentially, performing exactly the same.

Modern memory management is not like filling a jug with water. The relationship between physical RAM and virtual addressing is very complex. Even a Mac with 128 Gb RAM will still use swap.

Combine that with RAM that is much faster than previous, with many more channels -- and an SSD that is faster than DDR2 800 RAM was!!! -- and the limitation of having small RAM is negligible.

I suspect where you will see a need for RAM is with large video tasks, given that the GPU and CPU use the same memory. So 8K video while driving 4 external displays, etc.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

benwiggy said:


> Both machines were using all their RAM -- and then some. The point is: the machine that was swapping and compressing twice as hard was, essentially, performing exactly the same.
> 
> Modern memory management is not like filling a jug with water. The relationship between physical RAM and virtual addressing is very complex. Even a Mac with 128 Gb RAM will still use swap.
> 
> Combine that with RAM that is much faster than previous, with many more channels -- and an SSD that is faster than DDR2 800 RAM was!!! -- and the limitation of having small RAM is negligible.
> 
> I suspect where you will see a need for RAM is with large video tasks, given that the GPU and CPU use the same memory. So 8K video while driving 4 external displays, etc.


I didn't know the drives are that fast, but I still need to see a machine with 16B of RAM handle a large sample template before I'll believe it.


----------



## Vik

colony nofi said:


> The figures we got were the ACTUAL speeds reported while the nuendo projects were loading. The 150MB/s is the total speed. Not times 50.


So if you have 50 tracks with orchestral stuff (sometimes one single instrument needs 4-5 gb) and the total read speed is 50, each of these 50 Kontakt tracks can read only (150/50 =) 3 _megabytes_/second?

I can't remember if you mentioned and value for the Kontakt buffer setting, btw – the factory default is optimised for old type spinning drives: did you experiment with this parameter in case it would have any affect on Kontakt's total read performance when loading?


----------



## Tronam

jcrosby said:


> And this circles back to the point made by colony nofi... It all rests on the shoulders of NI pouring through millions of lines of code.
> 
> Given that basic functionality - quickload has been slow/broken for close to a decade - people have been complaining about text size and GUI resizability for years, etc... I just don't see NI making any major effort to optimize Kontakt's performance anytime soon regardless of OS, CPU architecture, etc.
> 
> If it runs noticeably better than on all intel macs that's plenty alright with me...


Ultimately I don’t think NI has a choice; adapt or die. Technology keeps marching forward whether they like it or not and there has always been some transitional pain along the way. This isn’t their first time either: PPC > Intel, 32-bit to 64-bit, single > multicore processors, HD to SSD etc… They may wait until Kontakt 7, but I do think it’ll happen eventually, long before Apple abandons Rosetta 2 in 4-5 years; we’re barely 1 year in. Also Apple won’t be the only ARM64 computing platform forever, especially in mobile. The performance/watt advantage is so dramatic that it’ll be impossible for Microsoft and PC vendors to ignore.


----------



## Virtuoso

The Eagle has landed! 

The 16" is a hair thicker than the old Late 2013 15" MacBook Pro but otherwise proportions are very close. Now to load it up!


----------



## Soundhound

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Impressive... but it still seems unlikely that 16GB is going to do the job if you're loading more than about 13GB of samples.
> 
> I'd love to be wrong, of course!


And to jump ahead, once we see whether the memory management/swap etc let’s us get more out of ram, i wonder if it will hold true for using external ssds or only see real improvement when libraries are loaded on the internal.


----------



## Tronam

I’m not sure if it has already been linked in this thread, but there aren’t that many YouTube videos demonstrating M1 potential with orchestral libraries:



It gets particularly interesting about halfway through after adjusting the Kontakt preload buffer size. This was from several months ago before the M1 Pro/Max were announced using an external SSD and with 16GB of RAM. Surprising results despite utilizing a hefty amount of swap memory.


----------



## jcrosby

Soundhound said:


> And to jump ahead, once we see whether the memory management/swap etc let’s us get more out of ram, i wonder if it will hold true for using external ssds or only see real improvement when libraries are loaded on the internal.


Swap almost certainly happens exclusively on the internal. Swapping to an external would be too slow and seems a bit prehistoric.


----------



## Technostica

jcrosby said:


> Swap almost certainly happens exclusively on the internal. Swapping to an external would be to slow.


The swap file isn't tied to only swapping data that is loaded from an internal drive.
So regardless of where the data was initially loaded from, the data would be swapped to the internal drive.
Unless it's possible to change the location of the swap file, which is the case with most O/Ss.
Not that you'd want to do that here, as an external drive will be slower.

Note: I'm not clear on exactly what question was being asked, so I answered the one you didn't.


----------



## Sovereign

Just been spending a couple of hours or so testing my Macbook (M1 Max and 64 Gb). Am noticing some peculiarities though. The performance meter in Logic seems rather active on many if not all cores, even when doing nothing. On my Intel Mac pro I see such activity on one core thread only. Also, I had to set the processing threads to 10 rather than have it set to automatic. On automatic I would get quite a few dropouts and seemingly higher CPU usage. In one specific template of mine during playback, my old 8 core Mac Pro trashcan shows the threads all staying below 25% whereas the same template on the M1 Max has the CPU threads going between 25 and 50% on playback.


----------



## danwool

Technostica said:


> The swap file isn't tied to only swapping data that is loaded from an internal drive.
> So regardless of where the data was initially loaded from, the data would be swapped to the internal drive.
> Unless it's possible to change the location of the swap file, which is the case with most O/Ss.
> Not that you'd want to do that here, as an external drive will be slower.
> 
> Note: I'm not clear on exactly what question was being asked, so I answered the one you didn't.


I'm out of my depth here, but this seems to imply that a fast external drive would be as, or nearly as viable as integrated-storage for sample libraries. ...Or am I projecting? I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to avoid the exorbitant integrated-storage tax that comes with the new MBPs. 

But also, doesn't the idea of having all one's OS, project and library eggs in one integrated basket seem ill advised, or is that an outdated position?


----------



## Vik

Tronam said:


> It gets particularly interesting about halfway through after adjusting the Kontakt preload buffer size.


The guy who made that chip is a member here, and at least in some of his experiments, he achieved a lot of tracks by purging all the unused samples. I believe he did it in this example, but could be wrong (@Soundbed ?).


Sovereign said:


> The performance meter in Logic seems rather active on many if not all cores, even when doing nothing. On my Intel Mac pro I see such activity on one core thread only. Also, I had to set the processing threads to 10 rather than have it set to automatic. On automatic I would get quite a few dropouts and seemingly higher CPU usage. In one specific template of mine during playback, my old 8 core Mac Pro trashcan shows the threads all staying below 25% whereas the same template on the M1 Max has the CPU threads going between 25 and 50% on playback.


I hope you report this to Apple?


Feedback - Logic Pro – Apple


----------



## Sheridan

Sovereign said:


> Just been spending a couple of hours or so testing my Macbook (M1 Max and 64 Gb). Am noticing some peculiarities though. The performance meter in Logic seems rather active on many if not all cores, even when doing nothing. On my Intel Mac pro I see such activity on one core thread only. Also, I had to set the processing threads to 10 rather than have it set to automatic. On automatic I would get quite a few dropouts and seemingly higher CPU usage. In one specific template of mine during playback, my old 8 core Mac Pro trashcan shows the threads all staying below 25% whereas the same template on the M1 Max has the CPU threads going between 25 and 50% on playback.


Yes, I am noticing the same behavior in Logic on my M1 Max when one or more tracks are record armed. When I click on an empty audio track the processor load disappears. It's like the dreaded one-core issue in Logic, only amplified somehow. Hopefully nothing a software update cannot fix.

EDIT: same issue reported here
https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=160442&sid=2ed45b7d4a473fbbf38f74bff4669e05


----------



## colony nofi

Vik said:


> So if you have 50 tracks with orchestral stuff (sometimes one single instrument needs 4-5 gb) and the total read speed is 50, each of these 50 Kontakt tracks can read only (150/50 =) 3 _megabytes_/second?
> 
> I can't remember if you mentioned and value for the Kontakt buffer setting, btw – the factory default is optimised for old type spinning drives: did you experiment with this parameter in case it would have any affect on Kontakt's total read performance when loading?


No. When you are loading a project, kontakt only loads one patch at a time. This is the speed we could measure accurately, and where the problem is. 

There is too much going on to accurately measure the speeds used WHILE a project is playing back. (Realtime disk performance).
Worth noting that amount the drive is used during playback is probably less than you might think. One voice is only 144kB/s maximum needed (once any preload cache is used) SSD's are absolutely perfect for sample streaming (At least compared to spinning rust) We have never done a test to see the maximum throughput during playback, as I don't think I've ever seen a project within our studios which saturates even a SATA III SSD bus. Some guys get to those dizzying heights, and thats when separating libs to different drives / SATA busses / pcie lanes etc might make sense. That is the absolute minority of people on this forum.

And of course kontakt can read multiple voices at the same time, but this is a completely different scenario / different situation than what we've been referring to (which is load speeds).

If we think about the new drive in the M1 then theoretically we could have 50000+ voices playing back before the drive bandwidth is used up. (This is assuming kontakt can cope - I have no idea?? Its an interesting test...I've built some pretty wacky ones before using custom kontakt libs... I'm thinking CPU might fall over first! I don't have the time or inclination to try right now - and we are still at least a month away from receiving our M1Max machine to test)


----------



## colony nofi

Vik said:


> So if you have 50 tracks with orchestral stuff (sometimes one single instrument needs 4-5 gb) and the total read speed is 50, each of these 50 Kontakt tracks can read only (150/50 =) 3 _megabytes_/second?
> 
> I can't remember if you mentioned and value for the Kontakt buffer setting, btw – the factory default is optimised for old type spinning drives: did you experiment with this parameter in case it would have any affect on Kontakt's total read performance when loading?


Buffer settings in this instance relate to how much of a sample library is preloaded into RAM before you press play. We fine tune this to death! . Indeed, it is one thing that can significantly speed up project loading - just significantly reduce the preload amount. With fast internal drives, the realtime playback takes care of the rest.

I think maybe things have been confused in this thread.

All the speeds I've been talking about are the drive speeds at the moment a patch is loaded. I'm afraid that it is extremely difficult to figure out what konakt is doing in regards to reading samples during playback, as it kinda is a completely different proecess. Even if it uses similar open/close file techniques (which are by their nature slow) it probably matters much less than on opening / loading a new patch. To read in a voice from drive to the sample playback engine in realtime requires 144kB/s at 24bit per voice per channel. Kontakt has a nice buffer (mentioned above - often set to 16kB for fast drives) which makes sure that playback can continue even if there's some sort of holdup with a particular read. 

I don't know if kontakt loads in large amounts of a long sample at once, or opens/closes many times. I imagine it grabs larger chunks of required samples as it plays back, and leaves a decent amount in memory after the initial read. But unlike the initial load, this all happens in a somewhat parallel way. I have not looked into how a single instance of konakt divvies up its reads, but for sure when playing back with many kontakt instances, each is able to request its own data at the same time as another instance, effectively parallelising the throughput, and allowing tonnes more than just the data for a single sample lib to be read at once. 

I suspect you've been worried about this / thinking about this, where as whenever people talk about the speed of konakt reading in samples, they are talking about the speed at load. IF thats the case I apologise for any conclusion.

I also imagine that if someone has a week or two to spare, they could devise a very interesting test to try and see (a) how fast drives serve data to konakt in a parallel setup, and if CPU grinds to a halt prior to saturating the read speeds of different drives. There's a lot more to what kontakt does than just reading files, so for every new instance we would open, there's more CPU to take care of. Depending on the library, this CPU usage may well add up quickly. Indeed, this is why we developed our own internal tests, which include different custom libs which stress CPU in different ways.


----------



## Tronam

Sovereign said:


> Just been spending a couple of hours or so testing my Macbook (M1 Max and 64 Gb). Am noticing some peculiarities though. The performance meter in Logic seems rather active on many if not all cores, even when doing nothing. On my Intel Mac pro I see such activity on one core thread only. Also, I had to set the processing threads to 10 rather than have it set to automatic. On automatic I would get quite a few dropouts and seemingly higher CPU usage. In one specific template of mine during playback, my old 8 core Mac Pro trashcan shows the threads all staying below 25% whereas the same template on the M1 Max has the CPU threads going between 25 and 50% on playback.


Out of curiosity is Logic itself running under Rosetta or is this using the AU bridge?


----------



## Sovereign

Sheridan said:


> Yes, I am noticing the same behavior in Logic on my M1 Max when one or more tracks are record armed. When I click on an empty audio track the processor load disappears. It's like the dreaded one-core issue in Logic, only amplified somehow. Hopefully nothing a software update cannot fix.
> 
> EDIT: same issue reported here
> https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=160442&sid=2ed45b7d4a473fbbf38f74bff4669e05


Try having a certain number of tracks on playback in logic, then switch to Safari and load up a couple of pages/tabs with some graphical content. Start scrolling up and down in these pages while Logic is playing back. Or keep switching from safari to the mail app, for example. There will be sudden and plenty of dropouts, and the thread meter in logic will jump up on all cores. Seriously strange, not at all what you'd expect from a machine which supposedly has multicore performance comparable to the 2019 12-core Mac Pro. Almost as if the machine can’t balance the load properly.


----------



## Sovereign

Tronam said:


> Out of curiosity is Logic itself running under Rosetta or is this using the AU bridge?


Logic itself is not running under Rosetta.


----------



## Tronam

Sovereign said:


> Logic itself is not running under Rosetta.


It's been the best way to run Logic until all owned plugins are native. Since they don't have to be individually bridged, projects load faster and more reliably with better performance and compatibility. That's been my experience anyway over this past year. Perhaps the AU bridge has since been improved and I'm just unaware of it. I'll definitely test it again extensively when my 16" arrives.


----------



## Sovereign

Tronam said:


> It's been the best way to run Logic until all owned plugins are native. Since they don't have to be individually bridged, projects load faster and more reliably with better performance and compatibility. That's been my experience anyway over this past year. Perhaps the AU bridge has since been improved and I'm just unaware of it. I'll definitely test it again extensively when my 16" arrives.


Will definitely try Rosetta mode tomorrow. Seventh heaven and some other plugins are refusing to run also.


----------



## Tronam

Sovereign said:


> Will definitely try Rosetta mode tomorrow. Seventh heaven and some other plugins are refusing to run also.


Seventh Heaven will start to work again along with various other iLok plugins I've had random issues with. Thankfully the iLok wall should be coming down soon as PACE have announced native M1 support for their protection tools supposedly rolling out over the next month.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Tronam said:


> Seventh Heaven will start to work again along with various other iLok plugins I've had random issues with. Thankfully the iLok wall should be coming down soon as PACE have announced native M1 support for their protection tools supposedly rolling out over the next month.


What is it about the iLok that causes problems on M1s?

I thought software scanned the dongle when it launched, and then that was it until next launch?


----------



## Van

Sovereign said:


> Will definitely try Rosetta mode tomorrow. Seventh heaven and some other plugins are refusing to run also.


Very interested in your experience as you've got the 64gb version I have on order for mid-december.


----------



## Vik

colony nofi said:


> if someone has a week or two to spare, they could devise a very interesting test


Thanks for your detailed response, CN! 

Here's what I would do if I had a M1 Max Mac a couple of hours, because this kind of test would be more relevant than for me than the kind of tests you wrote about. 

– Record 10-20 seconds of ...anything, like eg. a G major scale played legato, with a library like Berlin Strings, or other multi-layer/multi-vibrato presets – with violin 1, starting from the lowermost G. 

– Add two layers of automation: vibrato and dynamics control.

– Use three mic positions.

Then, copy that track in various ways which uses different samples than I used in track one: eg by transposing it, use violin 2 instead, or use different articulations, use a different library and so on.

I would keep doing that until I had 40 tracks, loop all the regions and monitor the disk and performance meters.



That's all, except that I'd play the same project on my Intel Mac and compare. That comparison would pretty much tell what I need to know abut about how the new Macs compare with Intel Macs, because it would be based on the same libraries I'll want to use when I start using Apple Silicon Macs, and the same kind of tracks.


----------



## colony nofi

Vik said:


> Thanks for your detailed response, CN!
> 
> Here's what I would do if I had a M1 Max Mac a couple of hours, because this kind of test would be more relevant than for me than the kind of tests you wrote about.
> 
> – Record 10-20 seconds of ...anything, like eg. a G major scale played legato, with a library like Berlin Strings, or other multi-layer/multi-vibrato presets – with violin 1, starting from the lowermost G.
> 
> – Add two layers of automation: vibrato and dynamics control.
> 
> – Use three mic positions.
> 
> Then, copy that track in various ways which uses different samples than I used in track one: eg by transposing it, use violin 2 instead, or use different articulations, use a different library and so on.
> 
> I would keep doing that until I had 40 tracks, loop all the regions and monitor the disk and performance meters.
> 
> 
> 
> That's all, except that I'd play the same project on my Intel Mac and compare. That comparison would pretty much tell what I need to know abut about how the new Macs compare with Intel Macs, because it would be based on the same libraries I'll want to use when I start using Apple Silicon Macs, and the same kind of tracks.


I think something like that can be arranged in our lab once we get our machine.
It might also make a good comparison to the M1 mini too.
I'll stick in in our project documentation and see what happens.
I think our M1Max is due 1st week of December....


----------



## Sovereign

Tronam said:


> Seventh Heaven will start to work again along with various other iLok plugins I've had random issues with. Thankfully the iLok wall should be coming down soon as PACE have announced native M1 support for their protection tools supposedly rolling out over the next month.


Did some more testing, this time with Rosetta. Does seem to improve performance and eliminate some of the hiccups and issues I mentioned before. Will need to do more testing. I however still cannot get 7thH to run at all, not sure what I am doing wrong.


----------



## Benjamin Duk

If I currently have 64GB ram in my AMD system. Would getting an M1 Max, with 32GB be enough or will I need 64GB especially if I want to limit SSD swapping? I think the Mac's ram system works differently than PC based systems.


----------



## khollister

Sovereign said:


> Just been spending a couple of hours or so testing my Macbook (M1 Max and 64 Gb). Am noticing some peculiarities though. The performance meter in Logic seems rather active on many if not all cores, even when doing nothing. On my Intel Mac pro I see such activity on one core thread only. Also, I had to set the processing threads to 10 rather than have it set to automatic. On automatic I would get quite a few dropouts and seemingly higher CPU usage. In one specific template of mine during playback, my old 8 core Mac Pro trashcan shows the threads all staying below 25% whereas the same template on the M1 Max has the CPU threads going between 25 and 50% on playback.


Automatic on the M1's only uses the performance cores - you have to manually set it to use all the cores (10 in your case).


----------



## khollister

Sovereign said:


> Try having a certain number of tracks on playback in logic, then switch to Safari and load up a couple of pages/tabs with some graphical content. Start scrolling up and down in these pages while Logic is playing back. Or keep switching from safari to the mail app, for example. There will be sudden and plenty of dropouts, and the thread meter in logic will jump up on all cores. Seriously strange, not at all what you'd expect from a machine which supposedly has multicore performance comparable to the 2019 12-core Mac Pro. Almost as if the machine can’t balance the load properly.


I'm not sure that this specific observation is unusual. I just tried something like this on my M1 running Logic 10.7 on Big Sur. Scrolling around in Safari while a bunch of tracks are playing does result in a modest apparent increase in the CPU meters in Logic. Running Mail and Safari in general reduces the number of tracks that are playable on any Mac I have tried it on.

My M1 Max will be here in 2-3 weeks so it will be interesting to see what I get.


----------



## khollister

Sovereign said:


> Will definitely try Rosetta mode tomorrow. Seventh heaven and some other plugins are refusing to run also.


Seventh Heaven certainly works fine here with M1/Logic native and Big Sur. May be a Monterey glitch.


----------



## khollister

Sovereign said:


> Did some more testing, this time with Rosetta. Does seem to improve performance and eliminate some of the hiccups and issues I mentioned before. Will need to do more testing. I however still cannot get 7thH to run at all, not sure what I am doing wrong.


What happens - does it crash Logic, just not start, etc? Do you have other iLok plugins working? Anything else from Liquidsonics? Might reach out to them about it.


----------



## rnb_2

khollister said:


> I'm not sure that this specific observation is unusual. I just tried something like this on my M1 running Logic 10.7 on Big Sur. Scrolling around in Safari while a bunch of tracks are playing does result in a modest apparent increase in the CPU meters in Logic. Running Mail and Safari in general reduces the number of tracks that are playable on any Mac I have tried it on.
> 
> My M1 Max will be here in 2-3 weeks so it will be interesting to see what I get.


Also, probably best to keep in mind all of the Spotlight background tasks that fire off on a new Mac for the first day or so. Not saying that is having an effect, but it's certainly not unheard-of.


----------



## Alex Fraser

rnb_2 said:


> Also, probably best to keep in mind all of the Spotlight background tasks that fire off on a new Mac for the first day or so. Not saying that is having an effect, but it's certainly not unheard-of.


This spotlighting effect was enough to keep my brand new 2019 MpB in hoover mode for several hours after unboxing. Not the best start and had me frantically scouring Google to see if I'd received a duffer.


----------



## khollister

rnb_2 said:


> Also, probably best to keep in mind all of the Spotlight background tasks that fire off on a new Mac for the first day or so. Not saying that is having an effect, but it's certainly not unheard-of.





Alex Fraser said:


> This spotlighting effect was enough to keep my brand new 2019 MpB in hoover mode for several hours after unboxing. Not the best start and had me frantically scouring Google to see if I'd received a duffer.


Good point, I had forgotten about that. Note to self, "don't try any benchmarking the first day"


----------



## Sovereign

khollister said:


> What happens - does it crash Logic, just not start, etc? Do you have other iLok plugins working? Anything else from Liquidsonics? Might reach out to them about it.


It just hangs on verifying the plugin at the Logic title screen. VSR S24 from Rehab, also an iLok plugin, does work however. Still need to do more testing. Also running tests now with Studio One. No Spotlight activity, I've had this laptop running since Thursday.


----------



## Virtuoso

Sovereign said:


> VSR S24 from Rehab,


Now _that's_ reverb addiction!


----------



## khollister

A really good overall review of the M1 Max laptop (and it's not a video!), including some application benchmarks against an M1 and an overclocked 5950X (4.5GHz all core pulling 200W) including Izotope RX. Amazingly, the M1 Max beat the 5950X on Spectral De-Noise in spite of RX running under Rosetta. The 5950X killed the Apple on Mouth De-Click though. There is some speculation on poorly translated AVX code being involved.

https://www.userlandia.com/home/2021/10/the-2021-macbook-pro-review


----------



## StefVR

I would be more interested to compare the new macbook to ryzen z5950x and intel alder lake once we got a daw like cubase running on native apple silicon.

Of coirse this mac book runs circles around the old macbook pros but thats only partly because its so good but also because the old intel mobile chips were so bad.

For me os wise mac os works much etter with really nice resplution scaling and driver compability.

However the new z690 chipsets has its own tricks in the sleeve. The z690 hero board for example comes with an addin card which allows to run 4 pci gen 4 m2 ssds and 1 gen 3 m2 ssd at the same time (Including the board slots) So I could put 4 times 4 tb firecuda 530 with 7000 mb sec so a total of 16 tb for under 4k usd. While the mac book is limited to 8 tb

same goes for memory while ddr5 is scarce on launch i can put at least 128 gb compared to 64 gb max inn the macbook pro.

I think if portability is a must the mac book pro faces no real competition but on desktop the pocture is not that clear.

Single core speed seems vastly improved so the new intel should be great for low latency virtual 8nstruments performing while having decent amounts of cores for bigger orchestral templates.


----------



## samphony

Sovereign said:


> It just hangs on verifying the plugin at the Logic title screen. VSR S24 from Rehab, also an iLok plugin, does work however. Still need to do more testing. Also running tests now with Studio One. No Spotlight activity, I've had this laptop running since Thursday.



Can you boot into recovery mode and lower the security setting? Restart then try again?






About Startup Security Utility on a Mac with the Apple T2 Security Chip


Use Startup Security Utility to make sure that your Mac always starts up from your designated startup disk, and always from a legitimate, trusted operating system.



support.apple.com


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Hey, could someone please humor me: do iLoks not work on ARM Macs?

If not, why TF not?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

You know, I'm balking at using a laptop as a desktop replacement - even though the days of desktop machines being necessary as main studio machines are numbered (with low numbers).

The reason is simply ergonomics. Well, that plus not wanting to waste the beautiful screen, speakers, and "studio grade" mics by putting it in clamshell mode.

These machines want to sit directly in front of you. That's where my 32" monitor sits, and it's going to be my main one.

The 32" floats about 6" above my sliding desktop on an arm on a desk like this. Making a fixed shelf for the laptop to float over the desktop is no problem, but the main monitor is going to be too high and I don't want to get a sore neck.

Will have to think more about this...


----------



## Tronam

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Hey, could someone please humor me: do iLoks not work on ARM Macs?
> 
> If not, why TF not?


All of my iLok protected plugins have been working fine for me over this past year as long as my DAW is in Rosetta mode. The only times I've encountered unpredictable loading errors or performance issues is when many of them are being loaded at once into the AU bridge. This happens when an M1 native DAW loads an X86 AU plugin. We're getting close to PACE's official M1 release though within the next month or so. Once that's out, all those devs can finally start releasing their native updates.


----------



## jcrosby

samphony said:


> Can you boot into recovery mode and lower the security setting? Restart then try again?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About Startup Security Utility on a Mac with the Apple T2 Security Chip
> 
> 
> Use Startup Security Utility to make sure that your Mac always starts up from your designated startup disk, and always from a legitimate, trusted operating system.
> 
> 
> 
> support.apple.com


Startup Security is specifically for boot security only, and doesn't affect runtime software compatibility at all. The only option is to disable gatekeeper, see if any security checks are bypassed that allow it to pass; however there are no guarantees that Logic, and/or macos won't 86 the plugin again once Gatekeeper has been re-enabled. 

You basically have to try it and see if it works unless the developer can confirm otherwise...


----------



## samphony

jcrosby said:


> Startup Security is specifically for boot security only, and doesn't affect runtime software compatibility at all. The only option is to disable gatekeeper, see if any security checks are bypassed that allow it to pass; however there are no guarantees that Logic, and/or macos won't 86 the plugin again once Gatekeeper has been re-enabled.
> 
> You basically have to try it and see if it works unless the developer can confirm otherwise...



Sorry to say that but in my case it helped a lot to cure weird behaviors like crashes or hangs. Especially regarding that new platform.


----------



## tmhuud

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You know, I'm balking at using a laptop as a desktop replacement - even though the days of desktop machines being necessary as main studio machines are numbered (with low numbers).
> 
> The reason is simply ergonomics. Well, that plus not wanting to waste the beautiful screen, speakers, and "studio grade" mics by putting it in clamshell mode.
> 
> These machines want to sit directly in front of you. That's where my 32" monitor sits, and it's going to be my main one.
> 
> The 32" floats about 6" above my sliding desktop on an arm on a desk like this. Making a fixed shelf for the laptop to float over the desktop is no problem, but the main monitor is going to be too high and I don't want to get a sore neck.
> 
> Will have to think more about this...


I know, kinda makes you have to think how to work differently now….


----------



## benwiggy

Benjamin Duk said:


> If I currently have 64GB ram in my AMD system. Would getting an M1 Max, with 32GB be enough or will I need 64GB especially if I want to limit SSD swapping? I think the Mac's ram system works differently than PC based systems.


There is a video earlier in this thread of a 16Gb MBP vs a 32Gb MBP, performing the same RAM-stressing tasks. There was essentially no difference in performance, even when the 16Gb model was swapping hard. 

The SSD is faster than DDR2 RAM! Ultimately, as long as the entire machine is faster enough to cue up the data and render the audio, then it doesn't matter whether it's all in RAM or not. 

There was a time when some computers weren't fast enough to decode mp3 on-the-fly, while they were playing it. Now that's a trivial task.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Tronam said:


> All of my iLok protected plugins have been working fine for me over this past year as long as my DAW is in Rosetta mode. The only times I've encountered unpredictable loading errors or performance issues is when many of them are being loaded at once into the AU bridge. This happens when an M1 native DAW loads an X86 AU plugin. We're getting close to PACE's official M1 release though within the next month or so. Once that's out, all those devs can finally start releasing their native updates.


Thanks.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

tmhuud said:


> I know, kinda makes you have to think how to work differently now….


----------



## scoringdreams

The new MBPs look and sound great so far, just a small observation though, do correct me if I am wrong:

I had been looking into the new MBPs and one small thing to note is the types of chargers they use. If I am not mistaken, the 16" versions have to use a 140W charger, while the 14" versions use a 96W charger. And looking at the third-party chargers out there, a 100W charger with additional available ports to charge other accessories would do the job well with a 14" MBP, but a 140W version would be harder to come by.


----------



## Sheridan

Ok guys, time for some benchmarks ...

I did a similar test as the "Trevor Morris" performance test where he sees how many Kontakt instances he can fill up Cubase with before the performance meter hits the red. Each instance is loaded with a spiccato patch playing a busy pattern. He checks the peak number of Kontakt voices and multiplies this with the number of instances.

In Trevor's case his new 16 core Mac Pro reaches 13 500 simultaneous Kontakt voices before hitting the red.

On my M1 Max MacBook Pro, with both Cubase and Kontakt in Rosetta 2, I managed 27 tracks with each instance at 380 voices peak, which gives 10 260 Kontakt voices in total.

The same test in Logic in Native mode and Kontakt in Rosetta 2 came out at 35 tracks with 380 voices, or 13 300 Kontakt voices in total.

Conclusions:

In Logic the M1 MacBook Pro managed essentially the same number of voices as Trevor's 16 core Mac Pro, even with Kontakt in Rosetta 2.

For Cubase the performance compared to Logic was somewhat lower. Whether that is due to Cubase running in Rosetta 2 or a general performance difference in MacOS between the two DAWs remains to be seen.

Now, hurry up Steinberg and Native Instruments and give us Native versions of your software!


----------



## rnb_2

scoringdreams said:


> The new MBPs look and sound great so far, just a small observation though, do correct me if I am wrong:
> 
> I had been looking into the new MBPs and one small thing to note is the types of chargers they use. If I am not mistaken, the 16" versions have to use a 140W charger, while the 14" versions use a 96W charger. And looking at the third-party chargers out there, a 100W charger with additional available ports to charge other accessories would do the job well with a 14" MBP, but a 140W version would be harder to come by.


Lower wattage chargers will still work with the 16", but will charge more slowly (you might see a gradual decrease in battery if you use it while plugged in, depending on the wattage of the charger, but it will charge if not in use). Given the battery life of the M1 Macs, this is probably not as big an issue as it might have been in the past - an Intel machine could drain a battery in 2-3 hours if you hammered it while unplugged, leaving you with no good options if you didn't have a high-wattage charger available, but M1s will last quite a bit longer on battery.


----------



## Soundbed

Vik said:


> The guy who made that chip is a member here, and at least in some of his experiments, he achieved a lot of tracks by purging all the unused samples. I believe he did it in this example, but could be wrong (@Soundbed ?).


Yes I talked through all my steps to "prep" the session for the higher track count toward the beginning of the video. And yes purging unused samples was one of the things and even lowering the voice count (for what it's worth) shown around 4:55 in that video.


----------



## Soundbed

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You know, I'm balking at using a laptop as a desktop replacement - even though the days of desktop machines being necessary as main studio machines are numbered (with low numbers).
> 
> The reason is simply ergonomics. Well, that plus not wanting to waste the beautiful screen, speakers, and "studio grade" mics by putting it in clamshell mode.
> 
> These machines want to sit directly in front of you. That's where my 32" monitor sits, and it's going to be my main one.
> 
> The 32" floats about 6" above my sliding desktop on an arm on a desk like this. Making a fixed shelf for the laptop to float over the desktop is no problem, but the main monitor is going to be too high and I don't want to get a sore neck.
> 
> Will have to think more about this...


My main setup is to have the lid of the laptop closed.
From closest to furthest it's small keyboard (more ergonomic for my writ to not have the number keypad), little midi controller, laptop (closed), monitor 1, then monitor 2 on top with speakers at the sides (upside down with tweeters at ear level).


----------



## Soundbed

benwiggy said:


> The SSD is faster than DDR2 RAM


Not sure what exactly you're trying to say here.

My understanding so far is:

... even if you had an SSD with read speeds faster on paper than your RAM (or "RAM") speeds, they work differently and are not equivalent in practice.

Swap files / page files are not as efficient as "RAM" at quickly exchanging data, as far as I understand. It has some to do with the the swap file / page file technology itself. Even "slow RAM" is going to be more efficient at RAM types of tasks than a "fast swap file".

Someone can correct me if I'm mistaken, but I've yet to see anyone anywhere demonstrate a "fast swap file" doing what we expect for samples and audio anywhere near as fast as "slower RAM" on a modern system sold in the last 5 years. On paper speeds might be approaching each other but the underlying design of swap files / page files is not the design of "RAM" so they don't perform equivalently in practice.

Sorry I cannot explain in more depth but that is about the limit of my knowledge / research on the topic so far. Someone can correct me if there's edge cases where I'm (hopefully only partially) mis-stating things or oversimplifying.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Soundbed said:


> My main setup is to have the lid of the laptop closed.
> From closest to furthest it's small keyboard (more ergonomic for my writ to not have the number keypad), little midi controller, laptop (closed), monitor 1, then monitor 2 on top with speakers at the sides (upside down with tweeters at ear level).


That's what I mean by clamshell mode. Nothing wrong with it, but to repeat myself: if you're spending $4K on a computer with a super-nice screen, speakers, etc. then you - I anyway - want it open, directly in front of me.

Otherwise it's wasting a fair amount of money in addition to being disruptive to my ergonomic setup.

There are rumors of new iMacs with similar specs. They wouldn't have been ideal for me in the past, because I have my noisy machines on the other side of a wall and I was using an expensive Apple Cinema Display.

But there aren't any spinning drives and constant fans anymore, and my monitor was 15% of what the Cinema Display cost (not even adjusted for inflation!), so that wouldn't matter.


----------



## rnb_2

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That's what I mean by clamshell mode. Nothing wrong with it, but to repeat myself: if you're spending $4K on a computer with a super-nice screen, speakers, etc. then you - I anyway - want it open, directly in front of me.
> 
> Otherwise it's wasting a fair amount of money in addition to being disruptive to my ergonomic setup.
> 
> There are rumors of new iMacs with similar specs. They wouldn't have been ideal for me in the past, because I have my noisy machines on the other side of a wall and I was using an expensive Apple Cinema Display.
> 
> But there aren't any spinning drives and constant fans anymore, and my monitor was 15% of what the Cinema Display cost (not even adjusted for inflation!), so that wouldn't matter.


Yeah, this remains the primary impediment to my wanting to replace my current two computer setup (M1 Mac mini and M1 MacBook Air) with a single M1 Pro/Max MacBook Pro. If I bought the fancy laptop with a 4TB drive, it would allow me to keep my Lightroom library and recent photos (currently on a 1TB external SSD) and my sample libraries (currently on a 2TB external SSD) on the internal drive, and allow me to just migrate the laptop between my work areas (each of which has its own midi controllers, display, keyboard, and pointing devices). But the notion of paying for a very fancy and, by all accounts, beautiful display on the laptop that essentially never gets used remains a sticking point for me.

The possibility of an equally-impressive display on the new big iMac - rumored to be a 27" mini-LED with ProMotion - might be enough to move me away from the Mac mini as my main computer. I've had 27" iMacs in the past, but there was a period where it was difficult to place that screen at the proper distance for my changing eyesight, so I moved to the 21.5" iMac for a while, then to a Mac mini as my eyes stabilized and I could deal with a 27" screen at the proper distance again. If the 27" is similar to the 24" iMac in design, all the better.


----------



## khollister

scoringdreams said:


> The new MBPs look and sound great so far, just a small observation though, do correct me if I am wrong:
> 
> I had been looking into the new MBPs and one small thing to note is the types of chargers they use. If I am not mistaken, the 16" versions have to use a 140W charger, while the 14" versions use a 96W charger. And looking at the third-party chargers out there, a 100W charger with additional available ports to charge other accessories would do the job well with a 14" MBP, but a 140W version would be harder to come by.


The 16 comes with the larger charger to provide the "half battery in 30 minutes" fast charging. The 16 has a 40% larger battery than the 14 (and gets better battery life as a result), so a larger charger is required to fast charge it. I believe from data I have seen that a 100W charger will power the 16 at full CPU & GPU load and will charge it under normal load.


----------



## khollister

Sheridan said:


> Ok guys, time for some benchmarks ...
> 
> I did a similar test as the "Trevor Morris" performance test where he sees how many Kontakt instances he can fill up Cubase with before the performance meter hits the red. Each instance is loaded with a spiccato patch playing a busy pattern. He checks the peak number of Kontakt voices and multiplies this with the number of instances.
> 
> In Trevor's case his new 16 core Mac Pro reaches 13 500 simultaneous Kontakt voices before hitting the red.
> 
> On my M1 Max MacBook Pro, with both Cubase and Kontakt in Rosetta 2, I managed 27 tracks with each instance at 380 voices peak, which gives 10 260 Kontakt voices in total.
> 
> The same test in Logic in Native mode and Kontakt in Rosetta 2 came out at 35 tracks with 380 voices, or 13 300 Kontakt voices in total.
> 
> Conclusions:
> 
> In Logic the M1 MacBook Pro managed essentially the same number of voices as Trevor's 16 core Mac Pro, even with Kontakt in Rosetta 2.
> 
> For Cubase the performance compared to Logic was somewhat lower. Whether that is due to Cubase running in Rosetta 2 or a general performance difference in MacOS between the two DAWs remains to be seen.
> 
> Now, hurry up Steinberg and Native Instruments and give us Native versions of your software!


Good news all around - thanks for the update. My observation doing something similar on my now departed 10 core iMac Pro indicated that the performance of Cubase 11 vs Logic 10.6 wasn't all that different as far as how many tracks I could play until overload. However, Cubase consumed more CPU at lower track counts per Activity Monitor than LPX, and that difference became less obvious once you saturated the DAW. I have tried Cubase in Rosetta vs LPX natively on my M1, and can confirm that Cubase performs noticeably worse in Rosetta, so I think that explains the hit.

Frankly, I'm surprised the Max comes that close to the 16 core nMP, particularly with Kontakt in Rosetta.


----------



## Sovereign

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That's what I mean by clamshell mode. Nothing wrong with it, but to repeat myself: if you're spending $4K on a computer with a super-nice screen, speakers, etc. then you - I anyway - want it open, directly in front of me.
> 
> Otherwise it's wasting a fair amount of money in addition to being disruptive to my ergonomic setup.


You make a good point for the screen, the speakers less so since I guess everyone here has better ones on their desk. I had planned to use my MacBook Pro in clamshell mode too, but the screen is just too nice not to use it. So I set it up below my regular ultra-wide monitor, since it's the 14" Macbook version it manages to just fit beneath it.


----------



## Vik

Nick Batzdorf said:


> if you're spending $4K on a computer with a super-nice screen, speakers, etc. then you - I anyway - want it open, directly in front of me


For a person who occasionally need a portable computer, but very often need a computer at home or for work, it's IMO a good idea to use a laptop – and use it in an as comfortable way as possible when _not_ travelling. 

And for me, that would be to connect the laptop to a much larger screen and to use an extended, wireless keyboard. I used a laptop not only as my main, but as my sole computer for a while, and most of the time, it wasn't even in the same room as me when I used it. I ran a recording studio at that time, and while the laptop was in the neighbouring room, I was sitting in front of a large sceen and a good keyboard right in front of me. When i wanted to bring it with me, I just disconnected the cables.


----------



## Vik

Sheridan said:


> On my M1 Max MacBook Pro, with both Cubase and Kontakt in Rosetta 2, I managed 27 tracks with each instance at 380 voices peak, which gives 10 260 Kontakt voices in total.
> 
> The same test in Logic in Native mode and Kontakt in Rosetta 2 came out at 35 tracks with 380 voices, or 13 300 Kontakt voices in total.


27 tracks with 380 voices is circa 14 voices per track (as opposed to 14 note polyphony), and 35 tracks with 380 voices is circa 11 voices per track – right?

In the little M1/Intel comparison I was involved in, we didn't count voices – we used monophonic or duephonic tracks. We had the same tracks, the same library/CSS, (we used identical projects) and the Logic buffer buffer settings were identical – but the M1 had only 16 gb RAM IIRR. Maybe the Kontakt preload buffer was different. The M1 had trouble playing more than a handful of tracks back reliably – so 27 tracks/35 tracks on the M1 Mac is good news. Do you remember the polyphony of these tracks? And – which library/preset did you use?

It would be really interesting to see a test similar to what you did with a modern pr orchestral library (with dynamic automation, vibrato crossfade, legato transitions etc), and with a fixed number of notes – eg one note pr. track, since most orchestral instruments are monophonic anyway. Using 2 or 3 three mic positions would also be relevant for those of us who often does that. Have any of you performed such tests?


----------



## CShorte

khollister said:


> Good news all around - thanks for the update. My observation doing something similar on my now departed 10 core iMac Pro indicated that the performance of Cubase 11 vs Logic 10.6 wasn't all that different as far as how many tracks I could play until overload. However, Cubase consumed more CPU at lower track counts per Activity Monitor than LPX, and that difference became less obvious once you saturated the DAW. I have tried Cubase in Rosetta vs LPX natively on my M1, and can confirm that Cubase performs noticeably worse in Rosetta, so I think that explains the hit.
> 
> Frankly, I'm surprised the Max comes that close to the 16 core nMP, particularly with Kontakt in Rosetta.


I am surprised at the level of performance as well. I had/have been looking at the nMP 16 core Intel as my next system. When you consider the performance of the MB Pro/Max, it is not hard to imagine two of those cores in one box with 128 GB of RAM easily out performing the nMP Intel multi core systems! It is my understanding that the combination of multiple SOC/ARM boards is how they are used in massive data centers throughout Europe. And, it maybe the plan that Apple will use to outperform multicore expensive Intel processors!


----------



## scoringdreams

rnb_2 said:


> Lower wattage chargers will still work with the 16", but will charge more slowly (you might see a gradual decrease in battery if you use it while plugged in, depending on the wattage of the charger, but it will charge if not in use). Given the battery life of the M1 Macs, this is probably not as big an issue as it might have been in the past - an Intel machine could drain a battery in 2-3 hours if you hammered it while unplugged, leaving you with no good options if you didn't have a high-wattage charger available, but M1s will last quite a bit longer on battery.





khollister said:


> The 16 comes with the larger charger to provide the "half battery in 30 minutes" fast charging. The 16 has a 40% larger battery than the 14 (and gets better battery life as a result), so a larger charger is required to fast charge it. I believe from data I have seen that a 100W charger will power the 16 at full CPU & GPU load and will charge it under normal load.


Now this tempts me to get a 16" M1 model instead of the 14". Coming from a 2017 MBP 15", it pains me to see the battery drain so quickly. Looking forward to see how the 16" fares with a 100W charger.


----------



## SvenE

Good general review by MKBHD (although not Audio/Music related).


----------



## Loïc D

I’d like to see composer real life benchmark test results :
- M1Pro vs M1Max
- RAM 32Gb vs 64Gb

Seems like the best value-for-money configuration is M1Pro / 32Gb /whatever storage you can afford.


----------



## khollister

Loïc D said:


> I’d like to see composer real life benchmark test results :
> - M1Pro vs M1Max
> - RAM 32Gb vs 64Gb
> 
> Seems like the best value-for-money configuration is M1Pro / 32Gb /whatever storage you can afford.


I don't think the Max is going to offer anything over the Pro for a composer except the ability to go to 64GB.


----------



## Al Maurice

It would be interesting to see if there is real world difference, that's why I've created another thread so a comparison can be made, please post here if you would like to follow up on the challenge:






M1 Pro vs Max -- how much memory do I need for Apple Silicon?


M1 Pro vs Max -- is there any conceivable difference in real world applications? I thought it would be interesting if we could share our experience in terms of ... Apple Silicon now uses unified memory, also many of the machines have higher bandwidth (200-400GB/s). With the efficiency cores...




vi-control.net


----------



## mat1

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That's what I mean by clamshell mode. Nothing wrong with it, but to repeat myself: if you're spending $4K on a computer with a super-nice screen, speakers, etc. then you - I anyway - want it open, directly in front of me.
> 
> Otherwise it's wasting a fair amount of money in addition to being disruptive to my ergonomic setup.


I look at it as a $1000 portability tax which will hopefully get rid of the annoyance of keeping multiple licenses and files in sync. The screen may or may not be placed off to the side but will mainly be for travel use.


----------



## Vik

Al Maurice said:


> It would be interesting to see if there is real world difference, that's why I've created another thread so a comparison can be made, please post here if you would like to follow up on the challenge:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M1 Pro vs Max -- how much memory do I need for Apple Silicon?
> 
> 
> M1 Pro vs Max -- is there any conceivable difference in real world applications? I thought it would be interesting if we could share our experience in terms of ... Apple Silicon now uses unified memory, also many of the machines have higher bandwidth (200-400GB/s). With the efficiency cores...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


Thanks for starting that thread, Al Maurice! One year after the initial M1 release, there's only the Mac Pro that hasn't been released based on Apple Silicon, and to my surprise there isn't (read:I haven't found) one single thread documenting that Apple Silicon Macs works well with professional orchestral libraries without workarounds (like eg. purging a lot of samples in order to get great results). We had no reason to expect that from the initial 16 gb M1 Macs, and I don't know what we can expect from the Max and Pro versions – but I hope we'll see some real VI-related benchmarks soon, based on 32 and 64 GB Macs.


----------



## Sovereign

Something else which has surprised me in a good way at this time, is the power draw. Even with my regular stuff running and doing some regular playing and composing I've yet to see the power draw of the Macbook exceed 45 watts or so. Usually it sits around 35-43. And I'm measuring the TB3 hub which powers the laptop, with my audio interface and external drive pulling power from it too. Really nice. Fan also has not come on yet even once.


----------



## Nachivnik

This has been a very informative discussion. Though I still cannot decide whether I want to consolidate machines. There is a good case for a basic MacBook Air for home/office work (or - gasp! - continuing to use the old pre-retina 2012 MacBook Pro I currently use) remaining separate from the desktop music production machine. This means awaiting an appropriate desktop machine (large iMac or Mac mini) to replace my current iMac. Waiting is not a bad idea as well, due to AS-native versions of all of my software remaining a work in progress. Furthermore, I am not yet bumping up against any limits with my current system. Waiting to purchase a desktop M1 Pro or M1 Max machine also means I do not need to have all of my storage in the box. I can just plug in the external storage I already have. Consolidating machines is a more revolutionary approach. It would allow me to take my music machine with me anywhere - currently only an imagined need or want. I would first try using a MacBook screen without an external monitor, but I think I would ultimately miss having a large screen. I do not love plugging/unplugging all of the time, either. I like to set it up and leave it, because I am lazy. Maintaining separate machines is less exciting, but probably more practical. But it means waiting, at a time where there is a shiny new.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Vik said:


> For a person who occasionally need a portable computer, but very often need a computer at home or for work, it's IMO a good idea to use a laptop – and use it in an as comfortable way as possible when _not_ travelling.
> 
> And for me, that would be to connect the laptop to a much larger screen and to use an extended, wireless keyboard. I used a laptop not only as my main, but as my sole computer for a while, and most of the time, it wasn't even in the same room as me when I used it. I ran a recording studio at that time, and while the laptop was in the neighbouring room, I was sitting in front of a large sceen and a good keyboard right in front of me. When i wanted to bring it with me, I just disconnected the cables.


Absolutely, just having everything on a laptop is perfect for a lot of people.

For me it's not out of the question, just not ideal.

The reality is that one of these laptops wouldn't even be a *laptop* replacement for my 11" MacBook Air!


----------



## khollister

Sovereign said:


> Something else which has surprised me in a good way at this time, is the power draw. Even with my regular stuff running and doing some regular playing and composing I've yet to see the power draw of the Macbook exceed 45 watts or so. Usually it sits around 35-43. And I'm measuring the TB3 hub which powers the laptop, with my audio interface and external drive pulling power from it too. Really nice. Fan also has not come on yet even once.


Not surprised - I think I recall from the Apple presentation that the CPU pulls about 30W max. The GPU is double that. I travel with a CalDigit Element TB4 hub which is 60W. I expect it will be enough to run the MBP and even charge it at a low rate during use.


----------



## Ivan M.

What does max bring over pro for us composers? Does the double memory bandwidth of the max give any noticeable advantage with synths, modeled instruments and convolution reverbs? 
Max seems to be geared at video (extra encoder core) and 3D (more GPU cores). But that 2x memory bandwidth is so tempting...


----------



## PJMorgan

Been following this & a few other threads on gearspace & of course like many of you watching a lot of YouTube videos. Just so I could get a good idea of what to go for. I'm actually thinking of going for the 8 core 14" with 32gb & 1tb ssd.

My reasoning is that right now I run a deactivated tracks cubase template & don't use many different mic positions. So my projects usually end up using between 15 to 25gb ram. Also depending on what your doing with it, the 10 core cpu only offers between a 10 to 20% boost over the 8. I'm also basing my decision on how well even the standard m1 seems to be praised for its power efficiency & how much it could handle. Also in theory there should be less heat, power consumption & fan noise. Gotta think of the environment & all too you know........ & the wallet 😉.

Currently on a pc with an 8700k & 48gb of ram that's been serving me well & still is but I have been looking for a laptop, add a bit more portability to my setup & I do prefer macos to windows. Anyone else out there considering the 8 core version?


----------



## Soundhound

Thinking about a Max 10/32 core... w/64 gigs of RAM and a 2tb internal. Idea is I'd get a some 4tb SSDs (or 2 8tb ssds) and have my whole setup with me while traveling, an astonishing idea. It'll be in clamshell most of the time, but maybe I'd write more when traveling with this. I've only done the occasional job while traveling and it involved a 2012 MBP, 2012 mac mini, a bunch of drives.. It was all really underpowered and a pain in the ass. The idea of having everything with just a macbook and a couple of drives sounds great. 

I'm just hoping using the external SSDs rather than the internal for all my libraries won't impact things, I'm just not feeling the idea of forking over $2k for the 8tb internal...


----------



## RSK

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That's what I mean by clamshell mode. Nothing wrong with it, but to repeat myself: if you're spending $4K on a computer with a super-nice screen, speakers, etc. then you - I anyway - want it open, directly in front of me.


You do, and there's nothing wrong with that. 

For me, having a laptop this powerful is all about not having to have two computers anymore. Having that kind of muscle when I'm on the go is great, and I'll deal with a small screen. When I'm at home in the studio, why in the world would I watch a 16" screen and listen on laptop speakers when I have a 43" monitor, a 65" TV, and main monitors with subwoofers?


----------



## Virtuoso

Not audio related, but I've been hammering my M1 Max with Handbrake tests (v1.4.2), transcoding ProRes to h264/h265. There is zero fan noise with all cores running flat out, but my 16 core Mac Pro is doing the same transcodes almost 3x faster (124fps vs 42fps). Using video toolbox (GPU encode) levels the playing field, but at the expense of massively increased file sizes and lower quality.

Happy to run some audio benchmarks if anyone has any suggestions?


----------



## anderslink

Sheridan said:


> Ok guys, time for some benchmarks ...
> 
> I did a similar test as the "Trevor Morris" performance test where he sees how many Kontakt instances he can fill up Cubase with before the performance meter hits the red. Each instance is loaded with a spiccato patch playing a busy pattern. He checks the peak number of Kontakt voices and multiplies this with the number of instances.
> 
> In Trevor's case his new 16 core Mac Pro reaches 13 500 simultaneous Kontakt voices before hitting the red.
> 
> On my M1 Max MacBook Pro, with both Cubase and Kontakt in Rosetta 2, I managed 27 tracks with each instance at 380 voices peak, which gives 10 260 Kontakt voices in total.
> 
> The same test in Logic in Native mode and Kontakt in Rosetta 2 came out at 35 tracks with 380 voices, or 13 300 Kontakt voices in total.
> 
> Conclusions:
> 
> In Logic the M1 MacBook Pro managed essentially the same number of voices as Trevor's 16 core Mac Pro, even with Kontakt in Rosetta 2.
> 
> For Cubase the performance compared to Logic was somewhat lower. Whether that is due to Cubase running in Rosetta 2 or a general performance difference in MacOS between the two DAWs remains to be seen.
> 
> Now, hurry up Steinberg and Native Instruments and give us Native versions of your software!


This is fantastic news for Logic users. Can you give an estimate on how big of a template you can run on the new machine then? What kind of templates were Trevor or other people able to run on a 16 core Mac Pro? It would be helpful to know how many instances of a more intensive patch you can run. Something like a performance patch from Embertone or Spitfire.


----------



## RSK

Nachivnik said:


> Furthermore, I am not yet bumping up against any limits with my current system.


This is the single best reason to not upgrade.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

RSK said:


> You do, and there's nothing wrong with that.
> 
> For me, having a laptop this powerful is all about not having to have two computers anymore. Having that kind of muscle when I'm on the go is great, and I'll deal with a small screen. When I'm at home in the studio, why in the world would I watch a 16" screen and listen on laptop speakers when I have a 43" monitor, a 65" TV, and main monitors with subwoofers?



That's the thing - we're not all the same person.

It definitely woudln't be my main monitor, but I would want to be able to use the laptop monitor in addition to my regular ones - less for music than for other things that would benefit from the color calibration, etc. Mostly that means more accurate previews of the modern art images I make.

Having that power on the road... well, so far I personally have never had occasion to use it (although I might if I had one of these machines). But for people who do, these machines are fantastic, no question.

The applications I use my laptop for when I bring it with me are all basic - email, web, writing, etc. - so the 11" MacBook Air is perfect just because it's so small. I also bring it into the living room for fitness classes over Zoom, and I'd hate to have to unplug my main machine for that every time.

Having said all that, I may end up ordering one of these machines anyway.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Virtuoso said:


> Not audio related, but I've been hammering my M1 Max with Handbrake tests (v1.4.2), transcoding ProRes to h264/h265. There is zero fan noise with all cores running flat out, but my 16 core Mac Pro is doing the same transcodes almost 3x faster (124fps vs 42fps). Using video toolbox (GPU encode) levels the playing field, but at the expense of massively increased file sizes and lower quality.
> 
> Happy to run some audio benchmarks if anyone has any suggestions?


Do you have enough RAM?

Also, which 16-core Mac Pro?


----------



## Virtuoso

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Do you have enough RAM?
> 
> Also, which 16-core Mac Pro?


64GB on the M1 Max and 384GB on the 2019 Mac Pro. The ProRes file I was testing is only 6GB though so RAM's not a factor.


----------



## khollister

Virtuoso said:


> Not audio related, but I've been hammering my M1 Max with Handbrake tests (v1.4.2), transcoding ProRes to h264/h265. There is zero fan noise with all cores running flat out, but my 16 core Mac Pro is doing the same transcodes almost 3x faster (124fps vs 42fps). Using video toolbox (GPU encode) levels the playing field, but at the expense of massively increased file sizes and lower quality.
> 
> Happy to run some audio benchmarks if anyone has any suggestions?


Interesting the 16c nMP was that much faster. I noticed on the Handbrake site that they added HW encoding support for Intel QuickSync, but no mention of support for the HW encoders/decoders in the Pro/Max. I also wonder if the Intel version has extensive AVX support, and the ARM version isn't really optimized. 

I expect the nMP to be faster on a lot of stuff, but this doesn't align with transcoding tests I have seen with FCP, Resolve or Premiere.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Virtuoso said:


> 64GB on the M1 Max and 384GB on the 2019 Mac Pro. The ProRes file I was testing is only 6GB though so RAM's not a factor.


Ah. Well, the 2019 Mac Pro had better do something better!


----------



## Soundbed

Soundhound said:


> I'm just hoping using the external SSDs rather than the internal for all my libraries won't impact things, I'm just not feeling the idea of forking over $2k for the 8tb internal...


External drives don’t impact anything for me, other than remembering to eject them before unplugging.


----------



## Soundbed

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That's what I mean by clamshell mode. Nothing wrong with it, but to repeat myself: if you're spending $4K on a computer with a super-nice screen, speakers, etc. then you - I anyway - want it open, directly in front of me.



Yeah that makes sense. 

I had it on a stand, screen open, in front of me for a while. It was nice to have the fingerprint thingy available to authorize things. But my other monitors are only 1080p. I moved the MBP to the side and enjoyed three monitors for a while. But ultimately there was some cognitive strain / fatigue happening switching between 1080 and the nice MBP screen. It was so much nicer I was always sort of refocusing on it. If your other monitors match the MBP screen better it would probably work great, esp if you can situate it just right and move the mouse between screens easily. 

We all need to figure out what works best for us. 

For me the screen gets plenty of use outside the studio — around the house, on trips, in meetings etc. I don’t take full advantage of it but that’s okay with me at this point.


----------



## hayvel

PJMorgan said:


> Been following this & a few other threads on gearspace & of course like many of you watching a lot of YouTube videos. Just so I could get a good idea of what to go for. I'm actually thinking of going for the 8 core 14" with 32gb & 1tb ssd.
> 
> My reasoning is that right now I run a deactivated tracks cubase template & don't use many different mic positions. So my projects usually end up using between 15 to 25gb ram. Also depending on what your doing with it, the 10 core cpu only offers between a 10 to 20% boost over the 8. I'm also basing my decision on how well even the standard m1 seems to be praised for its power efficiency & how much it could handle. Also in theory there should be less heat, power consumption & fan noise. Gotta think of the environment & all too you know........ & the wallet 😉.
> 
> Currently on a pc with an 8700k & 48gb of ram that's been serving me well & still is but I have been looking for a laptop, add a bit more portability to my setup & I do prefer macos to windows. Anyone else out there considering the 8 core version?


Hey there, yes I do consider the 8 core M1 pro. It is quite powerful (much more than my current cpu), but I am still undecided. For sample based VIs, this should be fine, but if you consider using more physical modeling instruments, synthesizers or effects in the future, compose for games and/or require surround sound, the extra headroom of the 10 core cpu (and 16 core gpu) might be very handy. Going with more cpu power over the jump from 512gb to 1tb ssd volume could make a better package in some cases. On the other hand, it seems the 1tb ssd is significantly faster in write speeds (which could affect swap performance? I don't know... ). 

Well... sorry for being no help. :-D . Just sharing my thoughts here while waiting for more real world reports.


----------



## gordinho

Seems like the extra GPU in the Max comes with a significant energy tax so you're always going to get less battery life. This is relevant if one anticipates to not have the laptop plugged all the time.

The Max is really geared for video creators am I have yet to see a clear cut need for 64gb memory on these machines. Video ram speed is irrelevant except for GPU tasks.


----------



## PJMorgan

hayvel said:


> Well... sorry for being no help. :-D . Just sharing my thoughts here while waiting for more real world reports.


Haha! No I'm still very undecided myself. My latest thinking is just getting an m1 macbook air with 16gb for now for portability & wait to see what the new mini will offer. I was thinking it might be good to have a backup system just in case. I've actually been focused on a more hybrid/ modern style lately & got back into Ableton Live, which I'm loving. committing a lot more to audio, chopping clips & sound design which Live is great for.


----------



## rnb_2

PJMorgan said:


> Haha! No I'm still very undecided myself. My latest thinking is just getting an m1 macbook air with 16gb for now for portability & wait to see what the new mini will offer. I was thinking it might be good to have a backup system just in case. I've actually been focused on a more hybrid/ modern style lately & got back into Ableton Live, which I'm loving. committing a lot more to audio, chopping clips & sound design which Live is great for.


The M1 Air is a straight-up fabulous computer. Much as I'm tempted by the 14" MacBook Pro, the Air really suits my mobile needs better, and an M1 Pro (possibly Max) mini or big iMac would probably suit me better than a really expensive laptop. Fingers crossed for announcements around March/April.


----------



## PJMorgan

rnb_2 said:


> The M1 Air is a straight-up fabulous computer. Much as I'm tempted by the 14" MacBook Pro, the Air really suits my mobile needs better, and an M1 Pro (possibly Max) mini or big iMac would probably suit me better than a really expensive laptop. Fingers crossed for announcements around March/April.


Yeah I've heard nothing but good things about the M1 Air. I'm just hoping the 32gb m1 pro mini isn't wildly expensive, the 32gb i5 mini starts at £1699 here & the i7 starts at £1899. Just maybe gonna wait for now & get a refurb air. I could stick with a PC air combo but I'm not the biggest fan of windows, much prefer macos & linux. Although I'm liking win 11 a bit better than 10, it's definitely easier on the eye.


----------



## Pier

Memory leaks are crippling my M1 MacBook Pro–and I'm not alone


With the release of Monterey and the new MacBook Pro, reports are swirling about users experiencing issues with memory leaks.




www.macworld.com


----------



## rnb_2

Pier said:


> Memory leaks are crippling my M1 MacBook Pro–and I'm not alone
> 
> 
> With the release of Monterey and the new MacBook Pro, reports are swirling about users experiencing issues with memory leaks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macworld.com


This one is weird - I've heard about it from several sources, but have actually never had it happen on either of my M1s. I don't use the system Mail app, which seems to be one of the common culprits, but it's still odd that I've never once seen that message in basically a year of use.


----------



## danwool

Pier said:


> Memory leaks are crippling my M1 MacBook Pro–and I'm not alone
> 
> 
> With the release of Monterey and the new MacBook Pro, reports are swirling about users experiencing issues with memory leaks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macworld.com


Good to know! But per the last sentence of the article, it sound alike a fix is possible _("...stay up to date with the latest version of Big Sur or Monterey, as a fix will hopefully arrive soon.") _Until then there's a few workarounds at least. ...another reason I'm not unhappy that the shipping estimate on my new MBP is so long.


----------



## samphony

To put it in perspective. For some use cases it does make sense to have a mac pro with lots of RAM. But on the other hand for mobility use cases the new MacBook Pro is a wonderful achievement. 

As soon as the first Apple Silicon Mac Pro drops I’ll get one for the studio. Until then I’m happy with the maxed out MacBook Pro and Mac minis VEP rack for traveling.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

samphony said:


> To put it in perspective. For some use cases it does make sense to have a mac pro with lots of RAM. But on the other hand for mobility use cases the new MacBook Pro is a wonderful achievement.
> 
> As soon as the first Apple Silicon Mac Pro drops I’ll get one for the studio. Until then I’m happy with the maxed out MacBook Pro and Mac minis VEP rack for traveling.


If you need more than 64GB, yes, but in general I'd say that these machines are the end of the conventional wisdom that desktops will always have more power. Or that they're necessary.

It was always just a matter of time, and it's probably only a matter of time before smartphones connected to full-size monitors and keyboards are enough computer. Maybe, anyway.


----------



## samphony

Nick Batzdorf said:


> If you need more than 64GB, yes, but in general I'd say that these machines are the end of the conventional wisdom that desktops will always have more power. Or that they're necessary.
> 
> It was always just a matter of time, and it's probably only a matter of time before smartphones connected to full-size monitors and keyboards are enough computer. Maybe, anyway.


Totally agree. I mean i tried for many years to work with a single PowerBook since the Pismo days. But gave up after my last 17“ and went straight to the Power PC g5 and then all cheese crater mac pro iterations and stopped with the vader toilet and am now back in notebook-land with the m1max 16”/64gb/8tb. I successfully used the m1 mac mini as transition kit in real world projects both feature film and production music. 

I nearly lost my belief into the mac eco system but since Apple Silicon I feel the same excitement since the dawn of SSDs. It’s such a fantastic world we live in.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

samphony said:


> It’s such a fantastic world we live in


Fun stuff, i'nit.


----------



## Soundhound

samphony said:


> Totally agree. I mean i tried for many years to work with a single PowerBook since the Pismo days. But gave up after my last 17“ and went straight to the Power PC g5 and then all cheese crater mac pro iterations and stopped with the vader toilet and am now back in notebook-land with the m1max 16”/64gb/8tb. I successfully used the m1 mac mini as transition kit in real world projects both feature film and production music.
> 
> I nearly lost my belief into the mac eco system but since Apple Silicon I feel the same excitement since the dawn of SSDs. It’s such a fantastic world we live in.


Wondering what led you to get the 8tb internal? i’m tempted since it would allow me to keep a lot of the libraries i use regularly right there on the interal, but thinking an external 8tb ssd(s) would do the same thing in my case.


----------



## khollister

I also went full Monty (still waiting on mine) primarily for portability, 2-3X the performance of a TB external, and about the same cost as a 8TB external (Glyph Atom Pro @ $2300). I didn’t want a desktop full of 2TB T7’s


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

khollister said:


> I also went full Monty (still waiting on mine) primarily for portability, 2-3X the performance of a TB external, and about the same cost as a 8TB external (Glyph Atom Pro @ $2300). I didn’t want a desktop full of 2TB T7’s


And Glyph is a VAR, meaning they're not cheap drives.


----------



## colony nofi

Nick Batzdorf said:


> And Glyph is a VAR, meaning they're not cheap drives.


!!! 
They're still brilliant though... I've been schlepping around a couple of their 4TB TB drives for three or so years and they've never skipped a beat. I feel ok throwing them in a back-pack, where as I use kid gloves on my sabrent thunderbolt external enclosure - just isn't built as well.

I'm thinking of the new MBP for my personal use - but am holding off since I can test one we are getting in at the studios. Having 8TB inside will negate plugging just another thing in when using in the field. I'm tempted to try the internal sound card as well. Once elicenser goes away for SB, its theoretically possible the only thing I'll need to plug in is a keyboard / controllers.


----------



## Nimrod7

rnb_2 said:


> Yeah, this remains the primary impediment to my wanting to replace my current two computer setup (M1 Mac mini and M1 MacBook Air) with a single M1 Pro/Max MacBook Pro. If I bought the fancy laptop with a 4TB drive, it would allow me to keep my Lightroom library and recent photos (currently on a 1TB external SSD) and my sample libraries (currently on a 2TB external SSD) on the internal drive, and allow me to just migrate the laptop between my work areas (each of which has its own midi controllers, display, keyboard, and pointing devices).


Just an idea on the photography side that might suit your workflow. 

For photography, I have a Synology NAS, connected through 10GbE. The lightroom library is local (Lightroom sucks on this aspect), but all the photos are accessed via NAS, while at the studio at very high speed. 

When I am away and I need to access photos, the NAS is accessible externally, so I can fetch photos if I need to.

The good part of it, it's that the photos are always backed up through the NAS Raid.


----------



## rnb_2

Nimrod7 said:


> Just an idea on the photography side that might suit your workflow.
> 
> For photography, I have a Synology NAS, connected through 10GbE. The lightroom library is local (Lightroom sucks on this aspect), but all the photos are accessed via NAS, while at the studio at very high speed.
> 
> When I am away and I need to access photos, the NAS is accessible externally, so I can fetch photos if I need to.
> 
> The good part of it, it's that the photos are always backed up through the NAS Raid.


Thanks! I'm actually doing something a bit similar: the external drive has my catalogs and the last couple years of photos on it, with everything else on a combination of RAID4/5 drives connected to my home server (plus local backups that are created at each import and every night, plus off-site drives). Everything that isn't on the external has a smart preview in the relevant catalog, so I can see and edit everything (which I almost never do with older work), regardless of whether I'm actually connected to the data.

The nice thing with the external, which is usually attached to my M1 Mac mini, is that when I do travel, I can just grab the drive and pack it. My M1 MacBook Air knows to look for my Lightroom catalogs on that drive, so it's pretty seamless in that respect.


----------



## cedricm

benwiggy said:


> There is a video earlier in this thread of a 16Gb MBP vs a 32Gb MBP, performing the same RAM-stressing tasks. There was essentially no difference in performance, even when the 16Gb model was swapping hard.
> 
> The SSD is faster than DDR2 RAM! Ultimately, as long as the entire machine is faster enough to cue up the data and render the audio, then it doesn't matter whether it's all in RAM or not.
> 
> There was a time when some computers weren't fast enough to decode mp3 on-the-fly, while they were playing it. Now that's a trivial task.


Transferring data at full speed from the ssd is taxing the cpu, consuming energy and heating.
Thus, it's probably still preferable to keep as many things as possible in ram, especially on a laptop .


----------



## samphony

Soundhound said:


> Wondering what led you to get the 8tb internal? i’m tempted since it would allow me to keep a lot of the libraries i use regularly right there on the interal, but thinking an external 8tb ssd(s) would do the same thing in my case.


Just to keep things simple. The only reason I’ve decided to get the maxed out MacBook Pro is for portability reasons as I plan to work abroad for a couple of months during winter. Also having everything i need on this crazy fast internal drive was just the right decision. I will also backup to 2 8tb Samsung QVO drives. Additionally an external uperfect 4k screen will serve as second screen and one maxed out intel mac mini as Pro Tools stem recorder/ vep additional server (if needed)


----------



## Tronam

I’ll be very curious to see if templates that traditionally need 128GB of RAM to run properly on x86 platforms will end up choking on 64GB of unified memory. It’s such a different architecture with unusually high memory bandwidth and SSD speeds. I suppose we won’t truly know the actual potential until NI releases M1 optimized Kontakt. Devs can see huge gains even just optimizing for Rosetta, it fully native is still a long ways off. Hopefully it won’t be too much longer.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Tronam said:


> I’ll be very curious to see if templates that traditionally need 128GB of RAM to run properly on x86 platforms will end up choking on 64GB of unified memory. It’s such a different architecture with unusually high memory bandwidth and SSD speeds. I suppose we won’t truly know the actual potential until NI releases M1 optimized Kontakt. Devs can see huge gains even just optimizing for Rosetta, it fully native is still a long ways off. Hopefully it won’t be too much longer.


I can't imagine that they wouldn't choke - but of course I'd love to be wrong.

If RAM didn't matter, why not just use storage for everything?


----------



## danwool

Tronam said:


> I’ll be very curious to see if templates that traditionally need 128GB of RAM to run properly on x86 platforms will end up choking on 64GB of unified memory. It’s such a different architecture with unusually high memory bandwidth and SSD speeds. I suppose we won’t truly know the actual potential until NI releases M1 optimized Kontakt. Devs can see huge gains even just optimizing for Rosetta, it fully native is still a long ways off. Hopefully it won’t be too much longer.


Yes. The results of a simple real-world test would be useful for those of us who glaze over when trying to decipher technical benchmarks.


----------



## topijokinen

Dont know if this has been discussed here already since its a long thread. But Im considering buying the new M1 Max MB Pro with 64 Gb Ram. I have 2 Samsung T5 SSD’s with 1 Tb of space each. Im considering should I buy the new MBPro with enough space to hold all my sample libraries or continue using my old T5’s. The integrated SSD of new MBPro is much faster to my understanding, but is also pricy. How much of a difference would faster inner SSD make in terms of performace etc? I currently have 2019 MBpro with only 16 gb of ram so even with my old T5’s it would be a heck of an improvement. What do you think?


----------



## Vik

Tronam said:


> I’ll be very curious to see if templates that traditionally need 128GB of RAM to run properly on x86 platforms will end up choking on 64GB of unified memory. It’s such a different architecture with unusually high memory bandwidth and SSD speeds. I suppose we won’t truly know the actual potential until NI releases M1 optimized Kontakt. Devs can see huge gains even just optimizing for Rosetta, it fully native is still a long ways off. Hopefully it won’t be too much longer.


If a 64 gb MBP Max will be able to (before the new Kontakt version is out) run projects as well as a 64 gb Intel Mac, that's also very good news. If it does, more people will start ordering the 64gb now (as opposed to when NI releases an AS-native versions of Kontakt. 

@samphony and everybody else with a 64gb Max: please don't hesitate if you'll perform any kind of benchmarking or comparisons with Kontakt running on Intel Macs!


----------



## danwool

topijokinen said:


> Dont know if this has been discussed here already since its a long thread. But Im considering buying the new M1 Max MB Pro with 64 Gb Ram. I have 2 Samsung T5 SSD’s with 1 Tb of space each. Im considering should I buy the new MBPro with enough space to hold all my sample libraries or continue using my old T5’s. The integrated SSD of new MBPro is much faster to my understanding, but is also pricy. How much of a difference would faster inner SSD make in terms of performace etc? I currently have 2019 MBpro with only 16 gb of ram so even with my old T5’s it would be a heck of an improvement. What do you think?


This has indeed been discussed at length a few times in this massive thread - a separate specific thread on this wouldn't be a bad idea IMO.

I'll say that my own research has led me to believe that the internal storage options are just too much $, and that I'll be fine with 1tb of integrated storage. The up-to 40Gb/s per Thunderbolt buss/port should exceed my external storage speed needs for a long while.


----------



## Soundhound

danwool said:


> Yes. The results of a simple real-world test would be useful for those of us who glaze over when trying to decipher technical benchmarks.


Yes please! Anyone who does this will get a free round of drinks from me if we’re ever in the same city. Or state. 😊


----------



## Al Maurice

topijokinen said:


> Dont know if this has been discussed here already since its a long thread. But Im considering buying the new M1 Max MB Pro with 64 Gb Ram. I have 2 Samsung T5 SSD’s with 1 Tb of space each. Im considering should I buy the new MBPro with enough space to hold all my sample libraries or continue using my old T5’s. The integrated SSD of new MBPro is much faster to my understanding, but is also pricy. How much of a difference would faster inner SSD make in terms of performace etc? I currently have 2019 MBpro with only 16 gb of ram so even with my old T5’s it would be a heck of an improvement. What do you think?


Hi -- I've already created a thread to discuss such issues not general as per this thread, please see:





M1 Pro vs Max -- how much memory do I need for Apple Silicon?


M1 Pro vs Max -- is there any conceivable difference in real world applications? I thought it would be interesting if we could share our experience in terms of ... Apple Silicon now uses unified memory, also many of the machines have higher bandwidth (200-400GB/s). With the efficiency cores...




vi-control.net


----------



## Fox

topijokinen said:


> Dont know if this has been discussed here already since its a long thread. But Im considering buying the new M1 Max MB Pro with 64 Gb Ram. I have 2 Samsung T5 SSD’s with 1 Tb of space each. Im considering should I buy the new MBPro with enough space to hold all my sample libraries or continue using my old T5’s. The integrated SSD of new MBPro is much faster to my understanding, but is also pricy. How much of a difference would faster inner SSD make in terms of performace etc? I currently have 2019 MBpro with only 16 gb of ram so even with my old T5’s it would be a heck of an improvement. What do you think?


Part of the answer will (of course) depend on how much space you need. If it's only 2TB then to me it's a no brainer, and worth the extra cost (even if the larger internal SSD is more expense than external ones). Why? Part of it is performance, but part of it...again for me...is that I have lived with a 15" MacBook Pro (mid-2015) for 5+ years now, and I hung first 1, and now 2, external SSD's on the laptop's case (by velcro), and I'm so ready to not bother with that sh&t anymore!

So I went for the full 8TB SSD (because I've decided to future proof). That said, this also feels like quite a luxury, and I know that I could get by just fine with external SSDs. The speed would be just fine (with T5's or most any SSD). But I've decided to make my life a little more convenient. Perhaps I'm being extravagant, or perhaps I'll be just that extra bit more creative (because of the convenience). Whatever, I don't care, I'm going for it!


----------



## khollister

A few things to consider before dismissing a larger internal SSD:

The USB 3.1 performance of the TB4 ports on the M1 Macs is sub par. USB 3.1 Gen 1/2 runs about 60-70% of what you would expect on an Intel Mac. I have seen a video that tested the new Pro and Max versions with the same result. TB speeds are fine
USB devices can’t be daisy chained, so you may be using most/all of the USB 3.1 ports on a dock
bus-powered TB drives are more expensive and also cannot be daisy chained.


----------



## RSK

Soundhound said:


> Yes please! Anyone who does this will get a free round of drinks from me if we’re ever in the same city. Or state. 😊


My experience has been that if you do a real world test and it doesn't fit someone else's narrative, you can expect to have your results, your motive, and your character questioned.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

RSK said:


> My experience has been that if you do a real world test and it doesn't fit someone else's narrative, you can expect to have your results, your motive, and your character questioned.


And rightly so! The nerve of you!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

khollister said:


> A few things to consider before dismissing a larger internal SSD:
> 
> The USB 3.1 performance of the TB4 ports on the M1 Macs is sub par. USB 3.1 Gen 1/2 runs about 60-70% of what you would expect on an Intel Mac. I have seen a video that tested the new Pro and Max versions with the same result. TB speeds are fine
> USB devices can’t be daisy chained, so you may be using most/all of the USB 3.1 ports on a dock
> bus-powered TB drives are more expensive and also cannot be daisy chained.



What about a Thunderbolt -> NVME enclosure with an 8TB drive in it?


----------



## Soundhound

RSK said:


> My experience has been that if you do a real world test and it doesn't fit someone else's narrative, you can expect to have your results, your motive, and your character questioned.


I hereby promise to do none of the above, and all drinks are brand of choice.


----------



## Pier

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What about a Thunderbolt -> NVME enclosure with an 8TB drive in it?


It will work, but I still haven't seen any enclosure that delivers all the 40Gbps available.

This one delivers up to 2800MBps (aprox 23Gbps). I imagine that's when using a RAID because the footnotes say "maximum single drive performance is 817 MB/s Reads and 711MB/s Writes".






OWC Express 4M2 SSD Enclosure - Thunderbolt 3


Four easy-to-access NVMe M.2 SSD slots customizable for any workflow with up to 32TB of capacity and up to 2800MB/s performance. Includes a 1 year warranty.




eshop.macsales.com





Here's a review:









Review: OWC's Express 4M2 Thunderbolt 3 enclosure accommodates four M.2 SSDs [Video]


The OWC Express 4M2 is a Thunderbolt 3 enclosure that can accommodate up to four M.2 NVMe SSDs simultaneously for up to 8TB of storage. It features a compact design and dual Thunderbolt 3 ports for daisy chain setups along with DisplayPort for connecting to an external display. OWC says that...




9to5mac.com













Don't get me wrong, 2800MBps is great, but these are rookie numbers compared to internal NVMe drives.

These are the SSDs on the M1Max/Pro MBPs:


----------



## khollister

Pier said:


> It will work, but I still haven't seen any enclosure that delivers all the 40Gbps available.
> 
> This one delivers up to 2800MBps (aprox 23Gbps). I imagine that's when using a RAID because the footnotes say "maximum single drive performance is 817 MB/s Reads and 711MB/s Writes".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OWC Express 4M2 SSD Enclosure - Thunderbolt 3
> 
> 
> Four easy-to-access NVMe M.2 SSD slots customizable for any workflow with up to 32TB of capacity and up to 2800MB/s performance. Includes a 1 year warranty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eshop.macsales.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a review:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Review: OWC's Express 4M2 Thunderbolt 3 enclosure accommodates four M.2 SSDs [Video]
> 
> 
> The OWC Express 4M2 is a Thunderbolt 3 enclosure that can accommodate up to four M.2 NVMe SSDs simultaneously for up to 8TB of storage. It features a compact design and dual Thunderbolt 3 ports for daisy chain setups along with DisplayPort for connecting to an external display. OWC says that...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9to5mac.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't get me wrong, 2800MBps is great, but these are rookie numbers compared to internal NVMe drives.
> 
> These are the SSDs on the M1Max/Pro MBPs:


As mentioned a few times on various threads here, 2.8 GBs is the max you are going to see from TB3/4 due to overhead and reserved bandwidth for DisplayPort streams. It is impossible to come anywhere close to matching the performance of the internal drive with an external TB solution. Whether it actually matters for sample streaming is another question.


----------



## khollister

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What about a Thunderbolt -> NVME enclosure with an 8TB drive in it?


I looked at that option. My conclusion was either

a) purchase an integrated 8TB solution with max TB performance, e.g. the Glyph ATOM Pro which is not really cheaper (but is slower)

b) a DIY approach with a single QLC 8TB blade (about $1100-1200) and a TB NVMe enclosure. The problem there is a combination of sustained TB performance (either due to design or marginal heat dissipation leading to throttling), build quality (cheap shit that wouldn't survive a drop onto the floor) or both.

You are still left with another external thing to drag around that doesn't remotely match the performance of the internal solution even setting cost aside.

We are paying a premium for mobility anyway, I just don't see going scrooge over the drive thing and ending up with something you can't ever fix later


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

khollister said:


> We are paying a premium for mobility anyway, I just don't see going scrooge over the drive thing and ending up with something you can't ever fix later



Got it. Thanks.

*sigh* Storage is always the money sinkhole, isn't it. It's been that way since my first hard drive ($600 for a 30MB CMS) and shows no sign of changing.

Now it looks like the six SSDs I've accumulated will go the same way, regardless of my next computer.


----------



## khollister

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Got it. Thanks.
> 
> *sigh* Storage is always the money sinkhole, isn't it. It's been that way since my first hard drive ($600 for a 30MB CMS) and shows no sign of changing.
> 
> Now it looks like the six SSDs I've accumulated will go the same way, regardless of my next computer.


Actually, I think just about everything is a sinkhole :( I have a TB box with 4 2TB 860 EVO SSD's in it that I won't use with the new MBP except as archive storage for libraries I don't use day to day and therefore don't need to carry with me. I just see it as the price of progress - who would have thought it was possible to carry around a complete VSL orchestra in a laptop that outperforms our best Mac desktops of a few years ago (and on battery no less)?


----------



## danwool

khollister said:


> We are paying a premium for mobility anyway, I just don't see going scrooge over the drive thing and ending up with something you can't ever fix later


Along these lines, does the idea of having all one's storage on a single non-replaceable drive bother anyone?


----------



## khollister

danwool said:


> Along these lines, does the idea of having all one's storage on a single non-replaceable drive bother anyone?


Considering the fact that the M1 Macs are NOT bootable from an external drive if the internal SSD is not functional, the incremental risk seems minor. If the SSD fails, you are sending the laptop in for repair regardless of whether you have your samples on an external drive or not.

I would hope you have backups and/or a secondary copy to use with a backup computer of some sort.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

khollister said:


> Actually, I think just about everything is a sinkhole :(


True, although thankfully it's not like it was for the first 2-1/2 decades of the digital revolution, when everything you bought was superseded between the time you carried the box in from the car and the time you unpacked it. 

And the capabilities were very real, for example a multitimbral keyboard was like having several more than a single one (never mind that we did have tape sync).

But storage is the one thing that keeps getting completely outdated. I really do have six SATA 3 SSDs!


----------



## danwool

khollister said:


> Considering the fact that the M1 Macs are NOT bootable from an external drive if the internal SSD is not functional, the incremental risk seems minor. If the SSD fails, you are sending the laptop in for repair regardless of whether you have your samples on an external drive or not.
> 
> I would hope you have backups and/or a secondary copy to use with a backup computer of some sort.


Well, that's some new and useful info! The internet disagrees somewhat that M1 Macs can't be booted from external drives, but at the very least that operation is not as straightforward as it has been in the past.


----------



## rnb_2

danwool said:


> Well, that's some new and useful info! The internet disagrees somewhat that M1 Macs can't be booted from external drives, but at the very least that operation is not as straightforward as it has been in the past.


The Apple Silicon Macs essentially need the internal drive to authorize the boot process, regardless of whether you're actually booting from the drive.


----------



## nightjar

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What about a Thunderbolt -> NVME enclosure with an 8TB drive in it?


If it's slim & sleek for portability with a MBP... likely gonna get quite toasty.

I just shut my eyes and ordered mine with 4TB after stalling & stalling....


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

nightjar said:


> If it's slim & sleek for portability with a MBP... likely gonna get quite toasty.
> 
> I just shut my eyes and ordered mine with 4TB after stalling & stalling....


An SSD is going to get toasty?

I'm certainly not saying you're wrong, because I don't know anything about this.

But I do read a lot of stuff about computers getting hot - when Apple does test their stuff before selling it to millions of people! It's not the user's responsibility to worry about that.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

rnb_2 said:


> The Apple Silicon Macs essentially need the internal drive to authorize the boot process, regardless of whether you're actually booting from the drive.


Just to be clear - I just asked a friend who works for Apple (not in this department), and he just linked me this.

I misread what khollister wrote the first time as one not being able to boot from an external drive period.


----------



## nightjar

Nick Batzdorf said:


> An SSD is going to get toasty?
> 
> I'm certainly not saying you're wrong, because I don't know anything about this.
> 
> But I do read a lot of stuff about computers getting hot - when Apple does test their stuff before selling it to millions of people! It's not the user's responsibility to worry about that.


Not the internal SSD in new M1 MBP.... someone was considering an external 8TB SSD....

My experience with any external, fast TB SSD is that they get HOT if put in a slim portable enclosure.

But if in a larger enclosure with a good fan... should be fine.


----------



## Soundhound

Nick Batzdorf said:


> True, although thankfully it's not like it was for the first 2-1/2 decades of the digital revolution, when everything you bought was superseded between the time you carried the box in from the car and the time you unpacked it.
> 
> And the capabilities were very real, for example a multitimbral keyboard was like having several more than a single one (never mind that we did have tape sync).
> 
> But storage is the one thing that keeps getting completely outdated. I really do have six SATA 3 SSDs!


I have, er... like 15 of them. Did I get light years behind somehow? I have them mostly in Blackmagic docks, for streaming kontakt libraries etc. etc. On my ancient iMac I get speeds of about 300-380 mbps for these drives. These new speeds of 2800, 5800 etc... do they/will they make a difference for sample library streaming? Or is my prehistoric setup with speeds of 350 or so still how people are doing it these days?


----------



## khollister

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Just to be clear - I just asked a friend who works for Apple (not in this department), and he just linked me this.
> 
> I misread what khollister wrote the first time as one not being able to boot from an external drive period.


Here's all the nitty gritty on this from Mike Bombich






Beyond Bootable Backups: Adapting recovery strategies for an evolving platform | Carbon Copy Cloner | Bombich Software







bombich.com


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

khollister said:


> Here's all the nitty gritty on this from Mike Bombich


Thanks.


----------



## JamieLang

Nick Batzdorf said:


> An SSD is going to get toasty?


My Samsung nvme needed heatsinks...so, yes.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

JamieLang said:


> My Samsung nvme needed heatsinks...so, yes.


Did it not come with them?


----------



## JamieLang

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Did it not come with them?


No. I ordered them along with them for the build--knowing the PREVIOUS gen would get hot enough to throttle themselves (and I believe did so in most Apple designs)--to be fair, they did NOT seem to actually throttle...but, they were well into the temps that the previous gen HAD internally throttled...so, heatsinks brought them from 85-95c to 40-50c. 

And FWIW--I ordered two sizes...one with a TON more surface area...but the bigger one didn't do a more effective job. They both reduced it to about the same temp range in the stress test. 

I think SATA drives don't get that hot because the chips ARE being bottlenecked by the bus...they're sitting twiddling their thumbs...and the were cooler than the spinning HDDs they replaced.

#geeknotes


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

JamieLang said:


> No. I ordered them along with them for the build


"The Build" - was this a Mac or a PC?

(I"m actually asking, not trying to harass you!  )


----------



## JamieLang

It was originally intended to be both...but, Win10 caused me no problems while the whole Hackintosh turned out to be a PIA...so...I suppose it will remain Windows. In fact, I intentionally made sure TPM is off so it can just "stay" Win10...maybe for it's lifetime.

Sorry--I know this is an M1 thread...but, physics principles of silicon should remain the same. If anything, the M1s, I think are PCIe v4 storage...so...they will be even LESS limited by the bus (than my v3), at least over time as the storage chips themselves get faster.


----------



## danwool

khollister said:


> Here's all the nitty gritty on this from Mike Bombich
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beyond Bootable Backups: Adapting recovery strategies for an evolving platform | Carbon Copy Cloner | Bombich Software
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bombich.com


Perhaps because it impacts CCC's relevance, the article does leave some italicized wiggle-room for future external-only bootability saying only that "In _theory_ it means that Apple Silicon Macs cannot boot at all if the internal storage fails".

I'm not going to make storage decisions that rely on this outside chance, but you can bet it's in more than one third-party company's interest to make it happen eventually. 2nd party too - me! Since my storage needs exceed 8tb by quite a bit (VI libraries, sound effects, video) I'm still inclined to keep costs down (by $2200! a lot for me) by limiting the integrated storage. ...opposing viewpoints welcome!


----------



## rnb_2

danwool said:


> Perhaps because it impacts CCC's relevance, the article does leave some italicized wiggle-room for future external-only bootability saying only that "In _theory_ it means that Apple Silicon Macs cannot boot at all if the internal storage fails".
> 
> I'm not going to make storage decisions that rely on this outside chance, but you can bet it's in more than one third-party company's interest to make it happen eventually. 2nd party too - me! Since my storage needs exceed 8tb by quite a bit (VI libraries, sound effects, video) I'm still inclined to keep costs down (by $2200! a lot for me) by limiting the integrated storage. ...opposing viewpoints welcome!


Realistically, the higher storage tiers only make sense if it's going to measurably improve the utility of the purchase for you. I could fit everything I need onto 4TB (if I decided to get a MacBook Pro, which I have so far resisted); others here can do it with 8TB. If having more than 1-2TB internally isn't going to get you any closer to just grabbing the laptop and taking it wherever you feel like working without compromising on the tools you have with you, it's better to save the money.


----------



## khollister

danwool said:


> Perhaps because it impacts CCC's relevance, the article does leave some italicized wiggle-room for future external-only bootability saying only that "In _theory_ it means that Apple Silicon Macs cannot boot at all if the internal storage fails".


And the very next sentence states he confirmed this with Apple themselves, so I don't think there is much wiggle room. And earlier in the paper he said Apple made it clear they intend to deprecate the ability to copy a working system to another drive at some point in time, so external boot is not something that should be planned on indefinitely.

Apple is usually pretty good at telegraphing where they are going on stuff like this, but developers and users insist on focusing on what works today and then act indignant when Apple actually gets around to doing what they told you they would do. Mike Bombich is well connected at Apple and when he basically says to transition from bootable clones as a disaster recovery strategy, I tend to listen.

Apple also made it very clear from the beginning of the Apple Silicon transition that Rosettta 2 was a transition solution, not a permanent one, but I'm sure there will be developers and their users crying foul when Apple pulls Rosetta eventually and they were too lazy to build native versions.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

JamieLang said:


> It was originally intended to be both...but, Win10 caused me no problems while the whole Hackintosh turned out to be a PIA...so...I suppose it will remain Windows. In fact, I intentionally made sure TPM is off so it can just "stay" Win10...maybe for it's lifetime.
> 
> Sorry--I know this is an M1 thread...but, physics principles of silicon should remain the same. If anything, the M1s, I think are PCIe v4 storage...so...they will be even LESS limited by the bus (than my v3), at least over time as the storage chips themselves get faster.


Well, one difference is that Apple has $2 trillion to engineer their stuff so there's enough cooling for it! 

On the other hand, I had one of the liquid-cooled G5s that had issues with their cooling system leaking, so they're certainly not infallible.


----------



## Soundhound

Pulled the trigger. All in except for the ssd: 16" MacBook Pro Max, 10/32core, 64 gigs ram, 2tb ssd.

Won't show up till January sometime, so plenty of time to get a giant screen, an 8tb ssd for schlepping around (same will be used while in desktop/command center mode so no futzing when traveling). And plenty of time for regretting, second guessing all of it.


----------



## CShorte

This may be of interest to some …










“Volume Hash Mismatch” Error in MacOS Monterey


Some macOS Monterey users are encountering a peculiar “Volume Hash Mismatch” error message, informing them that a hash mismatch was detected and to reinstall macOS on the volume. The fu…




osxdaily.com


----------



## danwool

Soundhound said:


> …And plenty of time for regretting, second guessing all of it.


For better or worse you can cancel until just before it ships I believe.


----------



## Soundhound

danwool said:


> For better or worse you can cancel until just before it ships I believe.


Yes i think that’s right! I’m trying to do the vulcan mind meld on myself though, so i won’t be thinking about that too much over the holidays…


----------



## rnb_2

Soundhound said:


> Yes i think that’s right! I’m trying to do the vulcan mind meld on myself though, so i won’t be thinking about that too much over the holidays…


Don't be surprised if they beat their estimated ship date - they tend to under-promise/over-deliver on that, though the current supply chain issues may have some effect.


----------



## Tronam

danwool said:


> Along these lines, does the idea of having all one's storage on a single non-replaceable drive bother anyone?


That's what AppleCare is for. 😉 


Soundhound said:


> Pulled the trigger. All in except for the ssd: 16" MacBook Pro Max, 10/32core, 64 gigs ram, 2tb ssd.
> 
> Won't show up till January sometime, so plenty of time to get a giant screen, an 8tb ssd for schlepping around (same will be used while in desktop/command center mode so no futzing when traveling). And plenty of time for regretting, second guessing all of it.


I'm in the months waiting club as well. I haven't cancelled my order yet, but I've gotten close a few times waffling around the M1 Pro vs M1 Max dilemma. 😊


----------



## Nate Johnson

alright. waffling between 14" m1pro 32gb vs m1max 64gb. I ditched my 2020 iMac - a 64gb imac machine. Naturally, my instinct is to continue with 64gb, but I'm not sure if I actually *need* that much ram. It's so hard to say; I work a thousand different ways, some VI intensive, some not. I've also produced some of my best vi based work with only 8gb of ram, so...you know. There's also the the superficial pressure of the m1pro's seemingly shipping a lot faster than the m1max's. 

hmmmm


----------



## samphony

rnb_2 said:


> Don't be surprised if they beat their estimated ship date - they tend to under-promise/over-deliver on that, though the current supply chain issues may have some effect.



True! The day I’ve ordered mine it stated to be delivered between November 20 and 30 but I just received an email that’ll arrive on November 16th.


----------



## samphony

Nate Johnson said:


> alright. waffling between 14" m1pro 32gb vs m1max 64gb. I ditched my 2020 iMac - a 64gb imac machine. Naturally, my instinct is to continue with 64gb, but I'm not sure if I actually *need* that much ram. It's so hard to say; I work a thousand different ways, some VI intensive, some not. I've also produced some of my best vi based work with only 8gb of ram, so...you know. There's also the the superficial pressure of the m1pro's seemingly shipping a lot faster than the m1max's.
> 
> hmmmm


As my opinion doesn’t count I’ll drop it here anyways. I would vote for M1Max 64gb.


----------



## Soundhound

And…. let the second guessing begin! Only now digesting the discussion here regarding nvme drives/portability/heat etc. I was thinking of getting a sata3 8tb drive for about $670 to go with the mbp max i just ordered, but now see (finally!) that nvme drives seem to be what people are using these days for streaming samples? Is that right? Is the huge difference in speed between sata3 and nvme taken advantage of by current setups (including the new m1 pro/mac stuff) with logic/kontakt etc etc? i tend to use a lot of VIs in what i do… Is buying into any more sata 3 drives at this point sinking money into outdated technology?


----------



## danwool

Since 64gb is barely enough RAM for me the M1Max was the only option when I ordered last week. My waffling involves storage.



Soundhound said:


> And…. let the second guessing begin! Only now digesting the discussion here regarding nvme drives/portability/heat etc. I was thinking of getting a sata3 8tb drive for about $670 to go with the mbp max i just ordered, but now see (finally!) that nvme drives seem to be what people are using these days for streaming samples? Is that right? Is the huge difference in speed between sata3 and nvme taken advantage of by current setups (including the new m1 pro/mac stuff) with logic/kontakt etc etc? i tend to use a lot of VIs in what i do… Is buying into any more sata 3 drives at this point sinking money into outdated technology?


As has been discussed extensively here, the internal storage speeds on M1s far exceed NVME on (traditional) sata3 or even Thunderbolt 4. *But* since the speeds of the external options far exceeds what's on my existing rig (eSATA3) I've opted for only 1TB of storage on my new MBP - hence my waffling on whether to cancel and wait until I can afford more integrated storage, or settle for what will only work (extremely well) for the short term.


----------



## Soundhound

danwool said:


> Since 64gb is barely enough RAM for me the M1Max was the only option when I ordered last week. My waffling involves storage.
> 
> 
> As has been discussed extensively here, the internal storage speeds on M1s far exceed NVME on (traditional) sata3 or even Thunderbolt 4. *But* since the speeds of the external options far exceeds what's on my existing rig (eSATA3) I've opted for only 1TB of storage on my new MBP - hence my waffling on whether to cancel and wait until I can afford more integrated storage, or settle for what will only work (extremely well) for the short term.


It's more than a little scary how I can miss much of what's being discussed. As Jeremy Irons/Claus Von Bulow said..."you have no idea".  

If Kontakt etc. actually takes advantage of these nvme speeds I'm tempted to suck it up and go for the 8tb internal instead of the 2tb internal, since the point of getting the MacBook Pro Max instead of waiting for the Mini/whatever is to make my whole setup truly portable. 8tb nvme external drives are $1200 or so (as opposed to $670 for an 8tb sata3) and there's the issue of heat in a non-cooled portable nvme enclosure....


----------



## danwool

Soundhound said:


> It's more than a little scary how I can miss much of what's being discussed. As Jeremy Irons/Claus Von Bulow said..."you have no idea".
> 
> If Kontakt etc. actually takes advantage of these nvme speeds I'm tempted to suck it up and go for the 8tb internal instead of the 2tb internal, since the point of getting the MacBook Pro Max instead of waiting for the Mini/whatever is to make my whole setup truly portable. 8tb nvme external drives are $1200 or so (as opposed to $670 for an 8tb sata3) and there's the issue of heat in a non-cooled portable nvme enclosure....


I think you just talked yourself into 8tb internal. The cost diff between that and your 8tb nvme scheme wouldn’t be very much.


----------



## samphony

Soundhound said:


> It's more than a little scary how I can miss much of what's being discussed. As Jeremy Irons/Claus Von Bulow said..."you have no idea".
> 
> If Kontakt etc. actually takes advantage of these nvme speeds I'm tempted to suck it up and go for the 8tb internal instead of the 2tb internal, since the point of getting the MacBook Pro Max instead of waiting for the Mini/whatever is to make my whole setup truly portable. 8tb nvme external drives are $1200 or so (as opposed to $670 for an 8tb sata3) and there's the issue of heat in a non-cooled portable nvme enclosure....


Ok let me be the bearer of the bad news. You’ll have to take 8tb of internal ssd space. If you can afford it.


----------



## danwool

Tronam said:


> That's what AppleCare is for. 😉


Sure. But I feel like I’d have more options if things went wrong if my OS, projects and libraries weren’t all onboard. I could get a loaner, use my old cMP etc. With everything internal I would be dead in the water until the machine comes back.


----------



## Soundhound

samphony said:


> Ok let me be the bearer of the bad news. You’ll have to take 8tb of internal ssd space. If you can afford it.


Ouch. Life is so hard!  So there is a real and substantial difference in performance when streaming samples in Kontakt from an nvme drive vs data 3? Kontakt does take advantage of that?


----------



## danwool

Soundhound said:


> Ouch. Life is so hard!  So there is a real and substantial difference in performance when streaming samples in Kontakt from an nvme drive vs data 3? Kontakt does take advantage of that?


I think you’re only looking at a couple hundred dollar difference… If you’re thinking about your 8 TB NVME option above


----------



## Soundhound

danwool said:


> I think you’re only looking at a couple hundred dollar difference… If you’re thinking about your 8 TB NVME option above


For sure, doesn't make sense to do the nvme 8tb external if that's the choice... But I think now I'm trying to choose between the 8tb internal and a sata3 8tb ssd... question is whether streaming sample libraries from one or the other in Kontakt (or other software) these days makes a real difference in performance. I'm reading up on it and sounds like it some cases yes in others no. In some scenarios the nvme can be much faster, for example—loading a project (yay, yes please!) but for playback it may not be much of a difference... In a word, arg...


----------



## cedricm

Sheridan said:


> Ok guys, time for some benchmarks ...
> 
> I did a similar test as the "Trevor Morris" performance test where he sees how many Kontakt instances he can fill up Cubase with before the performance meter hits the red. Each instance is loaded with a spiccato patch playing a busy pattern. He checks the peak number of Kontakt voices and multiplies this with the number of instances.
> 
> In Trevor's case his new 16 core Mac Pro reaches 13 500 simultaneous Kontakt voices before hitting the red.
> 
> On my M1 Max MacBook Pro, with both Cubase and Kontakt in Rosetta 2, I managed 27 tracks with each instance at 380 voices peak, which gives 10 260 Kontakt voices in total.
> 
> The same test in Logic in Native mode and Kontakt in Rosetta 2 came out at 35 tracks with 380 voices, or 13 300 Kontakt voices in total.
> 
> Conclusions:
> 
> In Logic the M1 MacBook Pro managed essentially the same number of voices as Trevor's 16 core Mac Pro, even with Kontakt in Rosetta 2.
> 
> For Cubase the performance compared to Logic was somewhat lower. Whether that is due to Cubase running in Rosetta 2 or a general performance difference in MacOS between the two DAWs remains to be seen.
> 
> Now, hurry up Steinberg and Native Instruments and give us Native versions of your software!


Any benchmarks or real-life experiences on hours-long work sessions?


----------



## rnb_2

If you want better performance out of Kontakt, you're going to be disappointed with what the internal gets you. If you can afford the 8TB internal and like the convenience of having everything internal and not carrying an external around all the time, plus a little bit of a performance bump for some things, you'll be happier.


----------



## rnb_2

danwool said:


> Sure. But I feel like I’d have more options if things went wrong if my OS, projects and libraries weren’t all onboard. I could get a loaner, use my old cMP etc. With everything internal I would be dead in the water until the machine comes back.


If you're making good backups, that backup drive would play the same role.


----------



## Soundhound

rnb_2 said:


> If you want better performance out of Kontakt, you're going to be disappointed with what the internal gets you. If you can afford the 8TB internal and like the convenience of having everything internal and not carrying an external around all the time, plus a little bit of a performance bump for some things, you'll be happier.


_This_ is what I pay hard earned money to hear at this joint. 

@samphony, thoughts? Kontakt is a LOT of what I use, as well as streaming software like Toontrack, AmpleSound etc. I use lots of other things as well, Omnispere, Trilian, Pigments, u-he synths, but I'm thinking since those are cpu eaters for the most part (Spectrasonics stuff does a bunch of streaming too I'm sure) the new M1 beast cpus will be doing the lions share of the heavy lifting there...


----------



## khollister

Soundhound said:


> _This_ is what I pay hard earned money to hear at this joint.
> 
> @samphony, thoughts? Kontakt is a LOT of what I use, as well as streaming software like Toontrack, AmpleSound etc. I use lots of other things as well, Omnispere, Trilian, Pigments, u-he synths, but I'm thinking since those are cpu eaters for the most part (Spectrasonics stuff does a bunch of streaming too I'm sure) the new M1 beast cpus will be doing the lions share of the heavy lifting there...


I recall a few years ago (likely the transition to the iMac Pro) moving the Spectrasonics STEAM folder to the internal SSD. I was disappointed that the Keyscape piano didn't load noticeably faster. The things I have seen substantial load time reductions on with internal NVMe SSD's versus external TB connected SATA SSD's are:

Garritan CFX Piano Full
VSL Synchron pianos

The VSL Synchron Piano and Synchron Player plugins do appear to see and adapt to the increased speed but I have no streaming tests to validate the actual improvement. 

I agree with Rick that while the internal SSD is great for being truly mobile with large sample content, faster memory swapping, video editing performance and probably performance with the VSL Synchron stuff, Kontakt could care less. I'm not sure about OPUS, SINE or the Spitfire player


----------



## jcrosby

danwool said:


> Sure. But I feel like I’d have more options if things went wrong if my OS, projects and libraries weren’t all onboard. I could get a loaner, use my old cMP etc. With everything internal I would be dead in the water until the machine comes back.


You might think about a better backup strategy. If either of my machines went down today I'd have backups of everything. Not only do I clone everything regularly, I have a discrete backup drive for all samples and projects.




Soundhound said:


> (Spectrasonics stuff does a bunch of streaming too I'm sure)


It does. Some of the factory patches are a over a 1.5 gigs (Barkcello, or similar IIRC), and you have control over the streaming performance:









Streaming - Omnisphere 2 - 2.8


The first column contains controls for the streaming function in Omnisphere. Streaming permits samples to reside largely on disk. In this way you can use large...




support.spectrasonics.net


----------



## newbreednet

khollister said:


> I'm not sure about OPUS


The most I've seen OPUS report pulling in from my NVMe is 1.1Gb/s
(the drive itself is capable of 3.5Gb/s though)

My point being that "rated speed" is great and all, but limited by the software's ability to use it!


----------



## ridgero

Nate Johnson said:


> alright. waffling between 14" m1pro 32gb vs m1max 64gb. I ditched my 2020 iMac - a 64gb imac machine. Naturally, my instinct is to continue with 64gb, but I'm not sure if I actually *need* that much ram. It's so hard to say; I work a thousand different ways, some VI intensive, some not. I've also produced some of my best vi based work with only 8gb of ram, so...you know. There's also the the superficial pressure of the m1pro's seemingly shipping a lot faster than the m1max's.
> 
> hmmmm


I didn't hesitate and went for the 64 GB. This will be the first MacBook that will be an absolute beast for several years. It will be my workstation for home and on the go.


----------



## samphony

Soundhound said:


> _This_ is what I pay hard earned money to hear at this joint.
> 
> @samphony, thoughts? Kontakt is a LOT of what I use, as well as streaming software like Toontrack, AmpleSound etc. I use lots of other things as well, Omnispere, Trilian, Pigments, u-he synths, but I'm thinking since those are cpu eaters for the most part (Spectrasonics stuff does a bunch of streaming too I'm sure) the new M1 beast cpus will be doing the lions share of the heavy lifting there...



If you don’t mind working with an attached ssd and kontakt is your only sample player you use then go with 1tb - 2tb internal + 4-8tb sata3 ssd. 

But if you want convenience, future proofing your system, want to use sine and other more optimized players i would use nvme. 

Anyhow in the studio i also use black magic multi docks with thunderbolt 2 and sata3 ssds and everything works flawlessly. For my current situation 8tb is just a convenience factor.


----------



## davidson

Interesting comparison video. 

Tldr: Not much of a difference CPU wise as the original M1 is/was a complete beast.


----------



## Vik

ridgero said:


> This will be the first MacBook that will be an absolute beast for several years.





samphony said:


> if you want convenience, future proofing your system, want to use sine and other more optimized players i would use nvme.


Most of us don't know what the situation will be in 2-3 years from now, but with Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, VSL and EastWest having their own players, Kontakt will Native Instruments may have to optimise Kontakt for large libraries, optimise it properly for Apple Silicon etc, or see that Kontakt as a platform will lose terrain. Kontakt apparently/currently only reads 150 megabytes/sec, and advanced libraries with more dynamic layers etc are in the coming. Therefore it isn't, IMHO, wise – if one can afford it –to invest in new Macs or outboard gear that aren't ready for the changes we'll see soon see in this market.


Core i7-12700HCore i7-11800HRyzen 7 5800HApple M1 MaxApple M1 ProApple M1General specifications6P, 8E, 2.70 ~ 4.60 GHz, ?MB8P, 2.30 ~ 4.60 GHz, 24MB16P, 3.20 ~ 4.40 GHz, 20MB8P, 2E, up to 3.22 GHz6P, 2E, up to 3.22 GHz4P, 4E, up to 3.20 GHzSingle-Core | Integer115713311247163416181597Single-Core | Float141315561617192419031896Single-Core | Crypto327637843546282128632783Single-Core | Score134015211473178017661746Multi-Core | Integer10929823180811137087487013Multi-Core | Float122518873923914017111048624Multi-Core | Crypto718662725075223061713910137Multi-Core | Score11138832683051271198747653

Things have just started to get faster, and with DDR5 and PCI5, things will look different in only 1-2 years from now.










Intel's Core i7-12700H Benchmarked Against Apple's M1 Max


Not so fast?




www.tomshardware.com


----------



## ridgero

Vik said:


> Most of us don't know what the situation will be in 2-3 years from now, but with Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, VSL and EastWest having their own players, Kontakt will Native Instruments may have to optimise Kontakt for large libraries, optimise it properly for Apple Silicon etc, or see that Kontakt as a platform will lose terrain. Kontakt apparently/currently only reads 150 megabytes/sec, and advanced libraries with more dynamic layers etc are in the coming, so IMO it isn't wise, if one can afford it, investing in new Macs or outboard gear that isn't ready for the changes we'll see in the market makes sense.
> 
> 
> Core i7-12700HCore i7-11800HRyzen 7 5800HApple M1 MaxApple M1 ProApple M1General specifications6P, 8E, 2.70 ~ 4.60 GHz, ?MB8P, 2.30 ~ 4.60 GHz, 24MB16P, 3.20 ~ 4.40 GHz, 20MB8P, 2E, up to 3.22 GHz6P, 2E, up to 3.22 GHz4P, 4E, up to 3.20 GHzSingle-Core | Integer115713311247163416181597Single-Core | Float141315561617192419031896Single-Core | Crypto327637843546282128632783Single-Core | Score134015211473178017661746Multi-Core | Integer10929823180811137087487013Multi-Core | Float122518873923914017111048624Multi-Core | Crypto718662725075223061713910137Multi-Core | Score11138832683051271198747653
> 
> Things have just started to get faster, and with DDR5 and PCI5, things will look different in only 1-2 years from now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intel's Core i7-12700H Benchmarked Against Apple's M1 Max
> 
> 
> Not so fast?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tomshardware.com



Vs. Power Consumption / Battery Life


----------



## samphony

Vik said:


> Most of us don't know what the situation will be in 2-3 years from now,


It for sure won’t go slower 😉


----------



## danwool

jcrosby said:


> You might think about a better backup strategy. If either of my machines went down today I'd have backups of everything. Not only do I clone everything regularly, I have a discrete backup drive for all samples and projects.


Same here plus Backblaze, but to what would I restore backups to while my M1 Mac is in the shop? With projects, libraries and video on externals there'd be no restoring (which can be time consuming itself) - just plug them into any Mac and go. Even limping on a lesser machine, such as my current cMP, temporarily might be better than thumb twiddling. My work is exclusively on deadlines. so these considerations are important. I'm not *just* trying to avoid the extra $2200 for 8tb....i don't think.


----------



## Soundhound

samphony/vik/khollister el al: thanks for the discussion about speeds/future proofing, really helpful. i could make my entire setup truly portable with 2 external 8tb ssds, but i think i might throw away $670 on a single 8tb sata3 external and see how long it lasts me.

if i went for the 8tb internal and an nvme 8tb is would be another 3k or something and i’m already a little sticker shocked with the mbp max. If things change much over the next couple of years then i can throw good money after mostly good/a little bad… it’s all doable, no budgets being stretched or anything, all good, i just hate spending money (while secretly loving it)


----------



## jcrosby

danwool said:


> My work is exclusively on deadlines. so these considerations are important. I'm not *just* trying to avoid the extra $2200 for 8tb....i don't think.


Same here, I write for exclusive libraries with firm deadlines... I have the 8TB, it doesn't concern me at all that everything is in the same place, but that's because I've always preferred not to work from externals, especially after NI changed how Kontakt deals with missing content if a drive is not plugged in... (The new Kontakt behavior:_ "The state of some instances of Kontakt cannot be recalled correctly, please open any instance of Kontakt to resolve the problem."_)

FYI you can make separate volumes on the internal so you're not stuck having to clone one giant volume. That said the drive is pricy so if the cost doesn't bring enough perceivable benefit for your current workflow that makes sense...


----------



## khollister

danwool said:


> Same here plus Backblaze, but to what would I restore backups to while my M1 Mac is in the shop? With projects, libraries and video on externals there'd be no restoring (which can be time consuming itself) - just plug them into any Mac and go.


That assumes the external drives aren’t the failure. And you still need to have backups. Unless you have a complete backup system, there will be downtime.


----------



## samphony

Soundhound said:


> samphony/vik/khollister el al: thanks for the discussion about speeds/future proofing, really helpful. i could make my entire setup truly portable with 2 external 8tb ssds, but i think i might throw away $670 on a single 8tb sata3 external and see how long it lasts me.
> 
> if i went for the 8tb internal and an nvme 8tb is would be another 3k or something and i’m already a little sticker shocked with the mbp max. If things change much over the next couple of years then i can throw good money after mostly good/a little bad… it’s all doable, no budgets being stretched or anything, all good, i just hate spending money (while secretly loving it)



Just go with sata 3 then. It’ll work totally fine!


----------



## Soundbed

khollister said:


> USB devices can’t be daisy chained, so you may be using most/all of the USB 3.1 ports on a dock


Right, and I’m fine with hubs / docks since I already have so many dongles and other USB connections. 

I’m not the target market for an 8TB internal drive this year. I’d be fine with 1TB internal and external NVME (for video and audio) and SATA for audio for a while longer.

At 24bit/48k SATA 3 can pull plenty of audio tracks for me. The loading speed in Kontakt is not noticeably different between SATA and NVME.

Opus and SINE might be able to take advantage of the faster drive speeds but I still primarily use Kontakt.

That said, I don’t plant to ever buy SATA again. I’m only posting to say that I don’t see a need to have everything internal, for me. 

NVME externals are fine for me for now snd much much cheaper than the Apple internal drive. A little more hassle but a fine trade off for cost / value. For me.


----------



## danwool

khollister said:


> That assumes the external drives aren’t the failure. And you still need to have backups. Unless you have a complete backup system, there will be downtime.


Yes, several hours if an external drive fails. Restoring to a new external drive can be a PIA, but doesn't take me out of commission. I'm guessing that a repair like this could not be done at the Genius Bar. It seems like a week'd be the minimum downtime if any one of the integrated components fail.


----------



## Eloy




----------



## Nick Batzdorf

^ When video is the wrong format (and the rest of the problems follow from that). I made it through a total of about :30 in random places before wanting to throw shoes at my computer screen.


----------



## danwool

Eloy said:


>



Spoiler: Logic is one of the few apps mentioned that performs better on the MP ...by 25%. Still impressive.


----------



## Nimrod7

Nick Batzdorf said:


> ^ When video is the wrong format (and the rest of the problems follow from that). I made it through a total of about :30 in random places before wanting to throw shoes at my computer screen.


Meaning? sorry genuine question.


----------



## Vik

danwool said:


> Spoiler: Logic is one of the few apps mentioned that performs better on the MP ...by 25%. Still impressive.


True, but unfortunately this video – like all others I have seen – doesn't test anything related to orchestral VIs.


----------



## danwool

Vik said:


> True, but unfortunately this video – like all others I have seen – doesn't test anything related to orchestral VIs.


Not yet for M1 Max Macs, but a few on the old fashioned M1 Macs. ...here's one


----------



## Vik

danwool said:


> Not yet for M1 Max Macs, but there's few on the old fashioned M1 Macs. ...here's one


Thanks, I've seen some of those, but due to the RAM limit (and need to purge samples) they aren't relevant for what I (and many of us) need them for.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Nimrod7 said:


> Meaning? sorry genuine question.


Meaning it's annoying AF to have some guy in your face prattling on and on in real time, when it would take literally seconds to skim it in writing! It's such a waste of time.

Video is a great format when showing you something is better than describing it. This is not one of those situations.


----------



## rnb_2

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Meaning it's annoying AF to have some guy in your face prattling on and on in real time, when it would take literally seconds to skim it in writing! It's such a waste of time.
> 
> Video is a great format when showing you something is better than describing it. This is not one of those situations.


 So many 20 minute videos that could have been 5-minutes-to-read articles.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

rnb_2 said:


> So many 20 minute videos that could have been 5-minutes-to-read articles.


And usually much less than five minutes!


----------



## jcrosby

danwool said:


> Yes, several hours if an external drive fails. Restoring to a new external drive can be a PIA, but doesn't take me out of commission. I'm guessing that a repair like this could not be done at the Genius Bar. It seems like a week'd be the minimum downtime if any one of the integrated components fail.


No, most repairs now are done at various large scale repair facilities Apple have in different areas. The one time I had a logic board failure I was told it would be shipped to Texas, and it took at least 2 weeks before I got it back... (Mind you I'm in the states... Not sure how they deal with the same issue abroad).


----------



## Justin L. Franks

jcrosby said:


> No, most repairs now are done at various large scale repair facilities Apple have in different areas. The one time I had a logic board failure I was told it would be shipped to Texas, and it took at least 2 weeks before I got it back... (Mind you I'm in the states... Not sure how they deal with the same issue abroad).


When my 2019 iMac needed a new logic board last summer, the repair was done at a local Apple store. I just had to wait an extra two days so they could order the logic board since it was a BTO. Maybe things have changed since then, or it is only laptops that aren't done locally. Which doesn't really make much sense, because it's easier to swap out a logic board on a MBP than an iMac.


----------



## jcrosby

Justin L. Franks said:


> When my 2019 iMac needed a new logic board last summer, the repair was done at a local Apple store. I just had to wait an extra two days so they could order the logic board since it was a BTO. Maybe things have changed since then, or it is only laptops that aren't done locally. Which doesn't really make much sense, because it's easier to swap out a logic board on a MBP than an iMac.


My board failure was around 2014 so I guess Apple's changed the process... That said I have a friend that works at an ASP and when I asked him about keyboard replacement for my 16 inch MBP (in case it develops issues) he said the same thing, and said that most of their repairs are shipped out of state... Both were MBP's so while it might be odd, it does seem like Apple might have a different protocol for MB's... Not sure, other than what I went through and what I've been told...

And, it could just also be that MB's have a much higher rate fo failure, (which has been my experience at least.)... Every MB I've owned short of one eventually developed something fatal. One had board failure, the other two had GPU/Display failure. If that were somehow true then it could be that it's easier to locally stock parts for machines less prone to failure.


----------



## Nimrod7

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Meaning it's annoying AF to have some guy in your face prattling on and on in real time, when it would take literally seconds to skim it in writing! It's so annoying.


I feel that there is value in visual examples such as scrubbing a timeline or cinebench rendering live side by side. Describing some situations it might not capture the full potential.

However youtubers these days:

1 min to introduce themselves (in every video)
2 mins to talk about like and subscribe, and how important it is (even before seeing the video!)
3 mins to talk about their sponsor. 
3 mins to recap the previous video (like we are totally incapable of clicking the video to watch).

Then they might get into the meat,

I respect that they put effort into it and they need sponsorships and support but there are better (and faster) ways to handle it.


----------



## gzapper

jcrosby said:


> My board failure was around 2014 so I guess Apple's changed the process... That said I have a friend that works at an ASP and when I asked him about keyboard replacement for my 16 inch MBP (in case it develops issues) he said the same thing, and said that most of their repairs are shipped out of state... Both were MBP's so while it might be odd, it does seem like Apple might have a different protocol for MB's... Not sure, other than what I went through and what I've been told...
> 
> And, it could just also be that MB's have a much higher rate fo failure, (which has been my experience at least.)... Every MB I've owned short of one eventually developed something fatal. One had board failure, the other two had GPU/Display failure. If that were somehow true then it could be that it's easier to locally stock parts for machines less prone to failure.


I bought into those 2011 macbook pros with the GPU failure and recall. One died so I bought a backup and then it died. The interesting part of this story is that my main one had 2 motherboard replacements then died a third time, this time in 2016. I have a friend who worked with Apple and he told me that there is an unofficial hardware replacement policy if you have the same hardware failure 3 times. So I called Apple, was very polite, they noticed I owned lots of products and then had me mail in my dead 2011 macbook pro and mailed me back a replacement 2017 macbook pro that I'm typing this on. 

Generally their machines are built to last more than other laptops, but they had some bad designs. This one is on its second keyboard and it will need a third soon. Which might mean another call, though I have an M1 pro on order.....


----------



## khollister

gzapper said:


> I bought into those 2011 macbook pros with the GPU failure and recall. One died so I bought a backup and then it died. The interesting part of this story is that my main one had 2 motherboard replacements then died a third time, this time in 2016. I have a friend who worked with Apple and he told me that there is an unofficial hardware replacement policy if you have the same hardware failure 3 times. So I called Apple, was very polite, they noticed I owned lots of products and then had me mail in my dead 2011 macbook pro and mailed me back a replacement 2017 macbook pro that I'm typing this on.
> 
> Generally their machines are built to last more than other laptops, but they had some bad designs. This one is on its second keyboard and it will need a third soon. Which might mean another call, though I have an M1 pro on order.....


barring a few notable design/vendor cockups (PowerMac liquid cooling, Nvidia laptop GPU's dying, Trashcan GPU reliability, butterfly keyboard issues), my Macs over the last 20 years have been remarkably reliable and trouble free HW wise. And in defense of the Trashcans, the GPU issues didn't surface until several years in, and are not 100%.

My wife did have the display die on an original gen MacBook Air but none of my MBP's ever gave me any trouble.


----------



## Nimrod7

gzapper said:


> I have a friend who worked with Apple and he told me that there is an unofficial hardware replacement policy


I kind of have the same feeling. I had a 3rd Gen IPad pro fully loaded which is quite expensive, got it in Nov 2018, out of warranty, no apple care or anything.

Charge failed three months ago, so I send it to Apple, and expecting a massive quote.
They send a replacement back 2 days later, no charges apart from shipping. No questions asked!


----------



## RSK

I've


khollister said:


> barring a few notable design/vendor cockups (PowerMac liquid cooling, Nvidia laptop GPU's dying, Trashcan GPU reliability, butterfly keyboard issues), my Macs over the last 20 years have been remarkably reliable and trouble free HW wise. And in defense of the Trashcans, the GPU issues didn't surface until several years in, and are not 100%.
> 
> My wife did have the display die on an original gen MacBook Air but none of my MBP's ever gave me any trouble.


I've owned Mac laptops since 1995. Can't recall a problem with any of them, except for the one I dropped on the floor at Starbucks. They are incredibly reliable machines.


----------



## Pier

RSK said:


> I've owned Mac laptops since 1995. Can't recall a problem with any of them, except for the one I dropped on the floor at Starbucks. They are incredibly reliable machines.


Then you've been very lucky.

I've been buying Mac laptops for 15 years and had tons of issues.

The best MBP I've ever owned was the 2007 Intel Core 2 Duo model. It lasted for 9 years with no issues other than a battery change.

A MacBook Air died on me in 2013, 3 years after buying it. It was sitting on a desk and one day it simply didn't turn on. Apple Mexico wanted to replace most of the machine to fix it, so it wasn't worth it.

My MBP 2011 died 2.5 years after buying it. It was the infamous Randeongate GPU issue. It took Apple 2 years to finally admit it was a design problem and start a repair program at which point it was useless.

Then a MBP 2014 lost its airport card. I ended up replacing it myself because again Apple wanted to change the whole logic board.

Just last month, my wife's Macbook Air lost its keyboard and trackpad. It's a model from 2017 with very light use. Again, Apple Mexico wanted to replace everything except the display and that cost as much as buying a new machine. We're trying to get it fixed somewhere else.

Don't get me started on the keyboard issues of the butterfly models...


----------



## el-bo

rnb_2 said:


> So many 20 minute videos that could have been 5-minutes-to-read articles.


It could've been a 5-minute video


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Nimrod7 said:


> I feel that there is value in visual examples such as scrubbing a timeline or cinebench rendering live side by side. Describing some situations it might not capture the full potential.
> 
> However youtubers these days:
> 
> 1 min to introduce themselves (in every video)
> 2 mins to talk about like and subscribe, and how important it is (even before seeing the video!)
> 3 mins to talk about their sponsor.
> 3 mins to recap the previous video (like we are totally incapable of clicking the video to watch).
> 
> Then they might get into the meat,
> 
> I respect that they put effort into it and they need sponsorships and support but there are better (and faster) ways to handle it.


You're saying the same thing I am, only you're a nicer person and have much more patience.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

el-bo said:


> It could've been a 5-minute video


Or a 25-second read.


----------



## RSK

Pier said:


> Don't get me started on the keyboard issues of the butterfly models...


I agree with this. I haven't owned one, but my workplace issued one to me and the keyboard drives me bonkers. It hasn't failed or accumulated "gunk" under the keys, but it just feels weird.


----------



## rnb_2

RSK said:


> I agree with this. I haven't owned one, but my workplace issued one to me and the keyboard drives me bonkers. It hasn't failed or accumulated "gunk" under the keys, but it just feels weird.


That keyboard was one of the worst mistakes Apple has made in recent memory - they're fortunate that it didn't completely kill their laptop business - and it was all in the pursuit of ever-thinner laptops that pro users never asked for. We all owe Casey Johnston a debt of gratitude for never letting up on the issue in the non-tech press.

On a different, but related, subject, I'm surprised they haven't found a way to bring back the glowing logo on the laptops. It was such a powerful brand statement that marketing is still using old photos of rooms full of people using laptops where you can easily identify every MacBook (and there were usually a lot of them).


----------



## khollister

rnb_2 said:


> That keyboard was one of the worst mistakes Apple has made in recent memory, and they're fortunate that it didn't completely kill their laptop business, and it was all in the pursuit of ever-thinner laptops that pro users never asked for. We all owe Casey Johnston a debt of gratitude for never letting up on the issue in the non-tech press.
> 
> On a different, but related, subject, I'm surprised they haven't found a way to bring back the glowing logo on the laptops. It was such a powerful brand statement that marketing is still using old photos of rooms full of people using laptops where you can easily identify every MacBook (and there were usually a lot of them).


I think a cool update would be to leave the black apple but surround it with a thin light ring to give a kind of "total eclipse" effect.


----------



## Pier

rnb_2 said:


> On a different, but related, subject, I'm surprised they haven't found a way to bring back the glowing logo on the laptops.


The Apple logo was lit with the backlight of the LCD display. I imagine Apple had been preparing the terrain for the current LED arrays (or even micro LED at some point) that wouldn't be able to do that.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

My 16 64 4tb laptop arrived in the mail, I’ve been transferring all my files across and downloding samples that never had a chance to because of space (sine free).

I’m left with 2.7tb. Do you guys think this is enough to last 5 years? I’m still wondering if I should return and upgrade to 8tb


----------



## Van

FrozenIcicle said:


> My 16 64 4tb laptop arrived in the mail, I’ve been transferring all my files across and downloding samples that never had a chance to because of space (sine free).
> 
> I’m left with 2.7tb. Do you guys think this is enough to last 5 years? I’m still wondering if I should return and upgrade to 8tb


I’m _VERY_ interested in your experience as I’ve got the same spec machine on order! (Mid-December) What are your libraries? Are you going to run them from the internal drive or external SSDs? (I presume internal since you say your transferring all your files?) I have about 2tb of samples and was planning on just leaving them on the external T5’s but if a large template runs well on the internal drive. . .ugh. . .I’ll have the same dilemma. But man, it’s another TWELVE-HUNDRED BUCKS to go from 4tb to 8tb!

Anyway, very interested in your experience with this! Please keep us (me) updated! Thanks in advance.


----------



## khollister

I’m kinda both amazed and jealous of folks with only 1 or 2 TB of samples - hell I have over 2.5TB of just VSL stuff. I have the 8TB version inbound and I’m busy sorting what the A list stuff is that makes on the internal and what gets put on a 2TB thunderbolt SSD I have as an optional “bench”. And then I have other stuff that won’t ever be mobile because I just don’t use it anymore (or never did to begin with). I really need to see if there is anything I can sell.


----------



## rnb_2

FrozenIcicle said:


> My 16 64 4tb laptop arrived in the mail, I’ve been transferring all my files across and downloding samples that never had a chance to because of space (sine free).
> 
> I’m left with 2.7tb. Do you guys think this is enough to last 5 years? I’m still wondering if I should return and upgrade to 8tb


You have ⅔ of your drive free - you should be able to manage that for a good long while, and if space does start to get tight, you'll have options at that point (move lesser-used libraries to cold storage, move some to an external, etc). I don't think it's worth the extra $1k under your circumstances, unless you really wouldn't miss the money.


----------



## Van

khollister said:


> I’m kinda both amazed and jealous of folks with only 1 or 2 TB of samples - hell I have over 2.5TB of just VSL stuff. I have the 8TB version inbound and I’m busy sorting what the A list stuff is that makes on the internal and what gets put on a 2TB thunderbolt SSD I have as an optional “bench”. And then I have other stuff that won’t ever be mobile because I just don’t use it anymore (or never did to begin with). I really need to see if there is anything I can sell.


Lol it cost me a small fortune and a lot of holiday Spitfire sales and student/faculty discounts to get to 'only' 2tb of samples!


----------



## cedricm

FrozenIcicle said:


> My 16 64 4tb laptop arrived in the mail, I’ve been transferring all my files across and downloding samples that never had a chance to because of space (sine free).
> 
> I’m left with 2.7tb. Do you guys think this is enough to last 5 years? I’m still wondering if I should return and upgrade to 8tb


Is the SSD soldered on? Isn't it possible to exchange it yourself?


----------



## gzapper

Pier said:


> Just last month, my wife's Macbook Air lost its keyboard and trackpad. It's a model from 2017 with very light use. Again, Apple Mexico wanted to replace everything except the display and that cost as much as buying a new machine. We're trying to get it fixed somewhere else.
> 
> Don't get me started on the keyboard issues of the butterfly models...


Those keyboards were a disaster, but when the trackpad and keyboard go its usually because the battery goes first and starts expanding.


----------



## rnb_2

cedricm said:


> Is the SSD soldered on? Isn't it possible to exchange it yourself?


The storage is not user-upgradeable - this has been the case with Mac SSD storage for a few years.


----------



## el-bo

This might be of interest to those who're investing in these new laptops. I've no affiliation, nor am I endorsing it. It's just a video from a channel I subscribe to. Looks pretty cool, if one has a need for that much i/o:



Currently on early-bird:


----------



## Markrs

@DID CHOI has done a Kontakt test with the M1 MAX
Factor in with the below test he was also screen recording as well


----------



## jcrosby

On my 8 core i9 MBP I'm able to reproduce essentially the same exact performance. So far I've created 173 SF instances (using the same melody even), same method of discrete patches. It's dead stable between 85 & 90% with all 173 tracks playing... I tried his settings, I also tried my usual ones - 256, medium buffer, playback and live tracks - both run dead stable between 85 & 90%.... The scale is basically 1:1 and expect to see my i9 MBP fall over around 200-220. We'll see...

This has either got to be the cost of Rosetta, or (as I've read in some threads), people have seen a noticeable lift in performance when they manually set Logic to 10 cores. Apparently the 2 efficientcy cores don't get turned on with automatic, or something like that. Again though that's all 2nd hand info as I obviously don't have an m1...

I also won't be surprised if we see performance improve over the next couple months. Just like the 2018 6 core shipped with thermal issues Apple wound up having to issue a patch for, I wouldn't be surprised if there's something Apple screwed up before shoving these out the door for shipping... That, or Rosetta really does come with a much bigger cost than I expected...


----------



## Vik

Markrs said:


> @DID CHOI has done a Kontakt test with the M1 MAX
> Factor in with the below test he was also screen recording as well


I still look forward to see someone doing something which reminds of either a real orchestral project (with automation, legato etc – and more than one pitch pr track), or a real benchmark comparison*. I also wonder why nobody has done that. It would be so easy to make such a test and write a few lines about it here.

*And no purging/no 1024 buffer.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

Van said:


> I’m _VERY_ interested in your experience as I’ve got the same spec machine on order! (Mid-December) What are your libraries? Are you going to run them from the internal drive or external SSDs? (I presume internal since you say your transferring all your files?) I have about 2tb of samples and was planning on just leaving them on the external T5’s but if a large template runs well on the internal drive. . .ugh. . .I’ll have the same dilemma. But man, it’s another TWELVE-HUNDRED BUCKS to go from 4tb to 8tb!
> 
> Anyway, very interested in your experience with this! Please keep us (me) updated! Thanks in advance.


Thank you for the replies and yes my plan B is to purchase a 1TB SSD and offload my non template samples into that. 

I think i'm fine as my template samples only use ~600gb
CSS
CSB
BB
Embertone 1945 D Piano
Vista
Caspian
Angry Brass
Freya
Wotan
Damage 2
Keep Forest
Insession Audio

As you can see I'm good with my GAS and only buy what I need and should learn before moving on.

Also if you're curious, I calculated a wish list with sizes in gb just to make sure future me still has space and I think we're good! I actually think the culprit was 1TB of PLAY libraries (that I can easily put on external ssd)
Wishlist sizes

Virtual InstrumentSizeBerlin Orchestra91.4Metropolis Ark 1160Metropolis Ark 2110Metropolis Ark 3115Metropolis Ark 498Phoenix Orchestra94.8TomH Holkenborg690Abbey Road: Foundations69.6Abbey Road: Strings69.6Abbey Road: Brass69.6Abbey Road: WW69.6CSW105CSSS41.7Tokyo Scoring Strings90


----------



## FrozenIcicle

I'm still transferring my files into new computer and logic is missing a few plugins...could this be the reason why I'm experiencing 100% on idle playback cause it's trying to search for missing plugins?? wtf


----------



## Loïc D

Could be also ongoing Rosetta translation for plugins…


----------



## khollister

FrozenIcicle said:


> Thank you for the replies and yes my plan B is to purchase a 1TB SSD and offload my non template samples into that.
> 
> I think i'm fine as my template samples only use ~600gb
> CSS
> CSB
> BB
> Embertone 1945 D Piano
> Vista
> Caspian
> Angry Brass
> Freya
> Wotan
> Damage 2
> Keep Forest
> Insession Audio
> 
> As you can see I'm good with my GAS and only buy what I need and should learn before moving on.
> 
> Also if you're curious, I calculated a wish list with sizes in gb just to make sure future me still has space and I think we're good! I actually think the culprit was 1TB of PLAY libraries (that I can easily put on external ssd)
> Wishlist sizes
> 
> Virtual InstrumentSizeBerlin Orchestra91.4Metropolis Ark 1160Metropolis Ark 2110Metropolis Ark 3115Metropolis Ark 498Phoenix Orchestra94.8TomH Holkenborg690Abbey Road: Foundations69.6Abbey Road: Strings69.6Abbey Road: Brass69.6Abbey Road: WW69.6CSW105CSSS41.7Tokyo Scoring Strings90


Not to be a wet blanket, but if by Abbey Road Ww, Brass & Strings you mean the rumored modular library stuff, I think you have way underestimated the sizes. I would expect a full ARO modular orchestra to come in closer to 1 TB based on BBCSO Pro and SSO


----------



## Van

Markrs said:


> @DID CHOI has done a Kontakt test with the M1 MAX
> Factor in with the below test he was also screen recording as well



I have to think Rosetta is hamstringing the CPU? Other processor tasks on native apps (Final Cut, etc.) are just blazingingly fast. I can’t imagine that once we get some updates things won't significantly free up.


----------



## gordinho

Anyone running the original m1 with sample libraries that is upgrading? Getting tempted by the refurbished m1 mini while waiting for next ones next year.. have you all reached their limits easily?


----------



## audio1

Back in the day my "travel" rig was an Apple G3 powerbook and headphones. No key - typed in the notes. Don't remember the ram specs but it couldn't have been more than 8GB. 

I did not use am external hard drive. All esx and akia 1000 sounds {converted} and logic software synths worked great up to about 16 to 18 instances with a a quicktime movie running in Logic.

The point is, this is when software devs were actually optimizing thier software for "low spec". As soon as processors and ram started get bigger and cheaper its my view developers stopped "optimizing".

I often wonder, if product devs didn't blow off low spec optimization, where would be be now?

Seems with the M1 chip, apple is trying to make things work better with less reliance on ram etc, on purpose.


----------



## Nimrod7

Delivery day was tomorrow, but apple just delayed my order until 6 December.
Anyone had similar experience?


----------



## rnb_2

Nimrod7 said:


> Delivery day was tomorrow, but apple just delayed my order until 6 December.
> Anyone had similar experience?


There was a group of orders that got delayed a few weeks back by some sort of issue with UPS, but I haven't seen anything since then. This is the opposite of what has typically been happening (delivery before original date), which I'm sure doesn't make you feel any better. Sorry you're on the wrong end of this.


----------



## Nimrod7

rnb_2 said:


> There was a group of orders that got delayed a few weeks back by some sort of issue with UPS, but I haven't seen anything since then. This is the opposite of what has typically been happening (delivery before original date), which I'm sure doesn't make you feel any better. Sorry you're on the wrong end of this.


Thanks,
Yep, same experience here, they ship before the target date. My case was not shipped at all, so I am not sure if its the same issue with UPS, except if they couldn't collect or something. 

No probs with the delay, might suit since I am pretty busy, I was just wondering if other people got the same issue.


----------



## Nimrod7

found an article here, in case anyone is interested, no much info in it, but seems to be a widespread issue with certain configurations:









Apple delaying new MacBook Pro pre-orders, no warning devices wouldn't arrive today | AppleInsider


Some customers who custom-ordered one of Apple's new MacBook Pros and were promised October 26 delivery are instead waking up to find emails from the company inexplicably stating that their Mac won't actually arrive till December.




appleinsider.com


----------



## FrozenIcicle

khollister said:


> Not to be a wet blanket, but if by Abbey Road Ww, Brass & Strings you mean the rumored modular library stuff, I think you have way underestimated the sizes. I would expect a full ARO modular orchestra to come in closer to 1 TB based on BBCSO Pro and SSO


Yes, i was trying to guess how much just the string orchestra would be. 1tb would be huge :(


----------



## RSK

gordinho said:


> Anyone running the original m1 with sample libraries that is upgrading? Getting tempted by the refurbished m1 mini while waiting for next ones next year.. have you all reached their limits easily?


I'm struggling with this question because I really want to get a Max with 64G RAM and 4TB SSD, but I haven't hit the wall with the M1 MacBook Air I currently have.

Edit: It should be noted that I now use templates with all tracks disabled until needed. The preload buffer for Kontakt has also been lowered to its minimum because with SSDs this fast, why wouldn't you? As a result, a 60-80 track session plays easily on a MacBook Air.


----------



## Soundhound

Here’s a mix guy (i think?) testing cpu load on 2021 mbp (pro not max) vs 2017 imac pro 8 core. spoiler: it gets about double the performance. pretty great! not about VIs etc, jist cpu.


----------



## Fox

Nimrod7 said:


> Delivery day was tomorrow, but apple just delayed my order until 6 December.
> Anyone had similar experience?


It sort of happened to me: My order was originally scheduled for Nov. 18-26. Now it has moved to being shipped, and Apple says it will arrive on Nov. 29. UPS initially said it would get here sooner, on Nov. 23, but now is saying "The delivery date will be provided as soon as possible." We will see how it all shakes out.


----------



## Nimrod7

Fox said:


> UPS initially said it would get here sooner, on Nov. 23,


🤞


----------



## danwool

Fox said:


> It sort of happened to me: My order was originally scheduled for Nov. 18-26. Now it has moved to being shipped, and Apple says it will arrive on Nov. 29. UPS initially said it would get here sooner, on Nov. 23, but now is saying "The delivery date will be provided as soon as possible." We will see how it all shakes out.


I'm curious at what point do the charges hit your card? Just before it ships?


----------



## Fox

danwool said:


> I'm curious at what point do the charges hit your card? Just before it ships?


For my case, the charges hit my card just as my purchase hit the "preparing to ship" stage. Things sat at that stage for 5-6 days before actual shipment.


----------



## jcrosby

Markrs said:


> @DID CHOI has done a Kontakt test with the M1 MAX
> Factor in with the below test he was also screen recording as well



So I duplicated this guys test using my 8-core i9 MBP. I even used the same little melody, and copied their settings, (and tried mine as well... 256 buffer, medium buffer size, 'playback and live tracks' selected)

I had to substitute Ark 1 for Berlin Winds, but I think it's safe to say that the CPU draw should be the same because they're both housed in Capsule, and he's using discrete articulations instead of multis...

*RESULTS:*

I'm able to playback all 220 tracks on my i9 MBP using either settings. (He was only able to get around 200-205 IIRC). Not a single hiccup with all 220 tracks playing back. I can also leave it looped with no dropouts. I still have a bit of headroom as well, while everything is running between 90 & 95%, there isn't a single core spiking so I should be able to squeeze even more tracks out. guessing I should be able to land near 240 tracks.

Interestingly my memory usage isn't any worse... Memory pressure is way down at the bottom in light green, no swap... I know BWW uses more RAM but I landed at Logic showing 46-ish GB of memory in use with all 220 tracks playing back. I've personally been skeptical about assumptions that _64 GB on M1 = 128 GB on intel_, my test seems to confirm that. Macos is already super efficient at compressing data in use, even on intel... Not to mention that the memory is shared with the GPU.



I really hope this guy's results are some kind of _user error_. As I mentioned in my previous thread I've seen people say Logic will choke if they don't manually switch Logic's multithreading to use all 10 cores instead of the default automatic. A few have stated that leaving it set to automatic excludes the efficiency cores....

Hoping that someone can duplicate this guys test with an m1 Pro/Max and see if this really is the cost of Rosetta, or if what people have said is true about manually enabling all cores in Logic (not leaving it set to 'Automatic').



*EDIT: I believe leaving Logic's multithreading set to Automatic is the problem. *

Looking at the guy in this video's CPU meter when they show it, the meter seems to be shy a few cores. Knock on wood this is what's actually going on and their playback numbers should actually be higher..

Or, knock on wood, Rosetta was doing some of its 1st-run translation behind the scenes? (Still not completely sure how that actually works)...


----------



## Nimrod7

danwool said:


> I'm curious at what point do the charges hit your card? Just before it ships?


Just checked also, the amount is reserved on the card since the day I put the order in, so the balance is down, but it will not show up until is preparing to ship.


----------



## Nimrod7

jcrosby said:


> *EDIT: I believe leaving Logic's multithreading set to Automatic is the problem. *


Not specifically for Kontakt, but this analysis of Logic Multithreading with M1's is worth a watch:


----------



## khollister

jcrosby said:


> So I duplicated this guys test using my 8-core i9 MBP. I even used the same little melody, and copied their settings, (and tried mine as well... 256 buffer, medium buffer size, 'playback and live tracks' selected)
> 
> I had to substitute Ark 1 for Berlin Winds, but I think it's safe to say that the CPU draw should be the same because they're both housed in Capsule, and he's using discrete articulations instead of multis...
> 
> *RESULTS:*
> 
> I'm able to playback all 220 tracks on my i9 MBP using either settings. (He was only able to get around 200-205 IIRC). Not a single hiccup with all 220 tracks playing back. I can also leave it looped with no dropouts. I still have a bit of headroom as well, while everything is running between 90 & 95%, there isn't a single core spiking so I should be able to squeeze even more tracks out. guessing I should be able to land near 240 tracks.
> 
> Interestingly my memory usage isn't any worse... Memory pressure is way down at the bottom in light green, no swap... I know BWW uses more RAM but I landed at Logic showing 46-ish GB of memory in use with all 220 tracks playing back. I've personally been skeptical about assumptions that _64 GB on M1 = 128 GB on intel_, my test seems to confirm that. Macos is already super efficient at compressing data in use, even on intel... Not to mention that the memory is shared with the GPU.
> 
> 
> 
> I really hope this guy's results are some kind of _user error_. As I mentioned in my previous thread I've seen people say Logic will choke if they don't manually switch Logic's multithreading to use all 10 cores instead of the default automatic. A few have stated that leaving it set to automatic excludes the efficiency cores....
> 
> Hoping that someone can duplicate this guys test with an m1 Pro/Max and see if this really is the cost of Rosetta, or if what people have said is true about manually enabling all cores in Logic (not leaving it set to 'Automatic').
> 
> 
> 
> *EDIT: I believe leaving Logic's multithreading set to Automatic is the problem. *
> 
> Looking at the guy in this video's CPU meter when they show it, the meter seems to be shy a few cores. Knock on wood this is what's actually going on and their playback numbers should actually be higher..
> 
> Or, knock on wood, Rosetta was doing some of its 1st-run translation behind the scenes? (Still not completely sure how that actually works)...


Something sounds off here (haven't watched all the video yet) and by more than a couple efficiency cores. I had done some comparisons between my 10 core iMac Pro (sold after ordering my 16 M1 Max) and my 13 M1 MBP using Kontakt instances of Lunaris with multiple voices per instance. As I recall, the performance of the little M1 was about what I expected given the difference in Geekbench scores with a small Kontakt Rosetta tax. My M1 Max should arrive next week, but I do not own anything from OT to try this. @jcrosby - if you want to PM me a midi file or even a Logic project file with something we own in common, I'll be glad to try it later next week since I no longer own an Intel Mac.

A few things we might have in common that run in Kontakt:

Spitfire Albions (all)
Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra (SSS, SSB, SSWW)
Luftrum Lunaris
Luftrum Bioscape
NI K13U (don't have orch stuff installed though)
SCS
Soniccouture Geosonics II


----------



## jcrosby

khollister said:


> Something sounds off here (haven't watched all the video yet) and by more than a couple efficiency cores. I had done some comparisons between my 10 core iMac Pro (sold after ordering my 16 M1 Max) and my 13 M1 MBP using Kontakt instances of Lunaris with multiple voices per instance. As I recall, the performance of the little M1 was about what I expected given the difference in Geekbench scores with a small Kontakt Rosetta tax. My M1 Max should arrive next week, but I do not own anything from OT to try this. @jcrosby - if you want to PM me a midi file or even a Logic project file with something we own in common, I'll be glad to try it later next week since I no longer own an Intel Mac.
> 
> A few things we might have in common that run in Kontakt:
> 
> Spitfire Albions (all)
> Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra (SSS, SSB, SSWW)
> Luftrum Lunaris
> Luftrum Bioscape
> NI K13U (don't have orch stuff installed though)
> SCS
> Soniccouture Geosonics II


I don't have SF Symphonic Orchestra but I do have Spitfire Studio (not Pro) let me know if that works... If not I think the best apples to apples comparison would be to use the same libraries...

I have 3 of the Albions, I could easily fill up 250 tracks across all libraries... Just keep in mind that my sample locations aren't the same as yours so you'll probably get stuck with Kontakt spitting out the new missing samples dialog... ('_The state of some Kontakt instances cannot be recalled correctly'_)...

Finally in the Live 11 beta most users find they actually get more CPU headroom with a lower buffer. I'm guessing it's a Live issue, but this is something I've seen reported many times so it's worth investigating how the buffer affects active instrument tracks...

..................

BTW, as for my final results in the current version of the test project I topped out at *241* tracks. The last 21 track were Areia, which has K6's reverb on by default (and is also more taxing than K5's reverb). Obviously that's not apples to apples... But still impressed just how well my intel MBP holds its own...


----------



## jcrosby

Nimrod7 said:


> Not specifically for Kontakt, but this analysis of Logic Multithreading with M1's is worth a watch:



Good to know, looks like it is true that you need to manually enable cores... Hopefully we'll see significantly higher instrument counts once people test Logic with some extra cores turned on...


----------



## Nate Johnson

RSK said:


> I'm struggling with this question because I really want to get a Max with 64G RAM and 4TB SSD, but I haven't hit the wall with the M1 MacBook Air I currently have.
> 
> Edit: It should be noted that I now use templates with all tracks disabled until needed. The preload buffer for Kontakt has also been lowered to its minimum because with SSDs this fast, why wouldn't you? As a result, a 60-80 track session plays easily on a MacBook Air.


Wow, I guess I didn’t realize the M1 Air could pull off that many tracks. What specs is that one exactly?

And of course, I gotta ask - why even consider an M1 Max (or anything else for that matter) if you haven’t had the M1 Air slow you down?


----------



## PJMorgan

So I finally pulled the trigger on a new macbook & which one did I go for........... I went for the M1 MB Air.

I did say in a previous post I was considering holding out for a possible m1 pro mini but still wanted something for portability so I waited until a refurb m1 air popped up with 16gb ram & at least a 512 ssd. Thankfully it came with Big sur, so I don't have to worry about some of the monterey headaches I've been hearing about. I know there are definite advantages to having a powerful portable system but what if for some reason it goes down or worse still it's stolen, then your stuck with nothing. So rather than spend a tonne of cash on a new 2021 macbook pro plus a new mini when it ever shows up, I decided to go for a cheaper option. For now my 8700k, 48gb ram PC is handling everything I can throw at it.



RSK said:


> I'm struggling with this question because I really want to get a Max with 64G RAM and 4TB SSD, but I haven't hit the wall with the M1 MacBook Air I currently have.
> 
> Edit: It should be noted that I now use templates with all tracks disabled until needed. The preload buffer for Kontakt has also been lowered to its minimum because with SSDs this fast, why wouldn't you? As a result, a 60-80 track session plays easily on a MacBook Air.


This sounds promising, I run a disabled cubase template too with projects that usually range between 20 to 50 instrument tracks. Although I never really intended to run large projects on the air, I'll definitely give it a go when I get a chance.



Nate Johnson said:


> Wow, I guess I didn’t realize the M1 Air could pull off that many tracks. What specs is that one exactly?
> 
> And of course, I gotta ask - why even consider an M1 Max (or anything else for that matter) if you haven’t had the M1 Air slow you down?


Even though the m1 macs seem to be pretty capable machines, when it comes to ram it's better having a bit more than you need to be on the safe side. Which is why I'd definitely go for at least the 32gb m1 pro mbp for a main machine, I currently have 48gb in my PC & my projects use between 20-30gb ram. Who knows, this 16gb air might do the trick going by what RSK is saying. I'll hopefully report back soon when I get finished working on a few Ableton Live projects & fire up cubase for some serious kontakt laden sound making.

The only thing I don't like so far about the m1 air is there's still a big dependency on rosetta 2. I initially tried to set up using as little intel apps/plugins as possible but you have apps like the stream deck app, ik plugins, kontakt & a few other apps that I kind of depend on that don't have an arm version yet. Even some of the AS native apps/plugins depend on rosetta for the installer.


----------



## PJMorgan

I just tested a Project on my m1 air (16gb), I was working on with my PC in Cubase 11. I had to disable 4 intances of LASS & bump the buffer up to 1024 & let it play through for a few seconds to get smooth playback. Now the crazy thing is according to istat cubase is using 27.3gb ram & swap is at 1.5gb. I think things would be a lot better if kontakt & cubase were AS native. I still haven't got all the plugins installed used in this projects & would imagine if they were playback wouldn't be great at all but this is still a pretty great result for the wee m1 air.

I also tested a scene in Ableton Live 11.1 beta AS native version with 14 instances of kontakt running various cinebrass core, Damage 2, LASS & it played back just fine. Live was using 7gb of ram & no swap.

I would imagine 32gb on the new MB pro's would be more than enough for a lot of composers out there.


----------



## khollister

jcrosby said:


> So I duplicated this guys test using my 8-core i9 MBP. I even used the same little melody, and copied their settings, (and tried mine as well... 256 buffer, medium buffer size, 'playback and live tracks' selected)
> 
> I had to substitute Ark 1 for Berlin Winds, but I think it's safe to say that the CPU draw should be the same because they're both housed in Capsule, and he's using discrete articulations instead of multis...
> 
> *RESULTS:*
> 
> I'm able to playback all 220 tracks on my i9 MBP using either settings. (He was only able to get around 200-205 IIRC). Not a single hiccup with all 220 tracks playing back. I can also leave it looped with no dropouts. I still have a bit of headroom as well, while everything is running between 90 & 95%, there isn't a single core spiking so I should be able to squeeze even more tracks out. guessing I should be able to land near 240 tracks.
> 
> Interestingly my memory usage isn't any worse... Memory pressure is way down at the bottom in light green, no swap... I know BWW uses more RAM but I landed at Logic showing 46-ish GB of memory in use with all 220 tracks playing back. I've personally been skeptical about assumptions that _64 GB on M1 = 128 GB on intel_, my test seems to confirm that. Macos is already super efficient at compressing data in use, even on intel... Not to mention that the memory is shared with the GPU.
> 
> 
> 
> I really hope this guy's results are some kind of _user error_. As I mentioned in my previous thread I've seen people say Logic will choke if they don't manually switch Logic's multithreading to use all 10 cores instead of the default automatic. A few have stated that leaving it set to automatic excludes the efficiency cores....
> 
> Hoping that someone can duplicate this guys test with an m1 Pro/Max and see if this really is the cost of Rosetta, or if what people have said is true about manually enabling all cores in Logic (not leaving it set to 'Automatic').
> 
> 
> 
> *EDIT: I believe leaving Logic's multithreading set to Automatic is the problem. *
> 
> Looking at the guy in this video's CPU meter when they show it, the meter seems to be shy a few cores. Knock on wood this is what's actually going on and their playback numbers should actually be higher..
> 
> Or, knock on wood, Rosetta was doing some of its 1st-run translation behind the scenes? (Still not completely sure how that actually works)...


So I finally suffered through the video. This is a lot more complicated than I assumed. He is instantiating every articulation in SCS (not sure if this included the performance legatos which are CPU hogs) as well as some of the BWW articulations. Furthermore, he had the threads in Logic on Automatic which do not use the 2 efficiency cores. He also doesn't understand how Logic works given his explanation about the 1024 buffer. He has the process buffer on Medium instead of Large and Playback Only. In my experience, Playback Only often is worse than Playback & Live (in spite of the theory). He also was running some screen capture and said he did not disable Google Drive.

He also seemed to think that using an audio interface was helping, although from his audio preferences screen he appears to be using a class compliant device as the I/O was set to System, not a device specific driver.

Without knowing specifically which SCS and BWW articulations were used (and mic signals), I'm dubious about "duplicating" his test, even setting aside the substitution of Ark for BWW. I also though you said you didn't have any of the SSO libs, which would include SCS which is a major part of this test.


----------



## jcrosby

khollister said:


> So I finally suffered through the video. This is a lot more complicated than I assumed. He is instantiating every articulation in SCS (not sure if this included the performance legatos which are CPU hogs) as well as some of the BWW articulations. Furthermore, he had the threads in Logic on Automatic which do not use the 2 efficiency cores. He also doesn't understand how Logic works given his explanation about the 1024 buffer. He has the process buffer on Medium instead of Large and Playback Only. In my experience, Playback Only often is worse than Playback & Live (in spite of the theory). He also was running some screen capture and said he did not disable Google Drive.
> 
> He also seemed to think that using an audio interface was helping, although from his audio preferences screen he appears to be using a class compliant device as the I/O was set to System, not a device specific driver.
> 
> Without knowing specifically which SCS and BWW articulations were used (and mic signals), I'm dubious about "duplicating" his test, even setting aside the substitution of Ark for BWW. I also though you said you didn't have any of the SSO libs, which would include SCS which is a major part of this test.


Right, which is why I said that I'd have to send you an identical project in order to do an apples to apples comparison.... I'd be willing to put together a project that has the same libraries you have and see how your numbers compare to mine. 

And indeed... There were a bunch of red flags in the video, the most obvious being them leaving the efficiency cores off. And their settings were fishy which is why I had mentioned trying my settings and theirs as a comparison... As expected playback and live tracks yields more tracks, etc.

As far as SF libraries... I have SF Studio Strings, not SO. If I mentioned SSS that was me referring to Studio Strings since they both can be abbreviated the same way 

If your still up for an apples to apples comparison - I'd build the project using the same libraries we both have, the determine the number of tracks I can play before I get system overload messages. I would then tack on some additional patches from mutual libraries to see how much further you can take your machine...

I think anyone with an intel mac that's still on the fence would like to have an idea of how M1 Max compares to what would be a roughly comparable intel machine... So if you're still up for an apples to apples comparison once you receive the new machine just give me a shout...


----------



## khollister

jcrosby said:


> Right, which is why I said that I'd have to send you an identical project in order to do an apples to apples comparison.... I'd be willing to put together a project that has the same libraries you have and see how your numbers compare to mine.
> 
> And indeed... There were a bunch of red flags in the video, the most obvious being them leaving the efficiency cores off. And their settings were fishy which is why I had mentioned trying my settings and theirs as a comparison... As expected playback and live tracks yields more tracks, etc.
> 
> As far as SF libraries... I have SF Studio Strings, not SO. If I mentioned SSS that was me referring to Studio Strings since they both can be abbreviated the same way
> 
> If your still up for an apples to apples comparison - I'd build the project using the same libraries we both have, the determine the number of tracks I can play before I get system overload messages. I would then tack on some additional patches from mutual libraries to see how much further you can take your machine...
> 
> I think anyone with an intel mac that's still on the fence would like to have an idea of how M1 Max compares to what would be a roughly comparable intel machine... So if you're still up for an apples to apples comparison once you receive the new machine just give me a shout...


I’m game. New machine should arrive Tue so I’ll be ready for some testing after Thanksgiving. Use what ever Albions you want and I’ll fix up the paths on my end. I’ll PM you when I’m ready next week.


----------



## jcrosby

khollister said:


> I’m game. New machine should arrive Tue so I’ll be ready for some testing after Thanksgiving. Use what ever Albions you want and I’ll fix up the paths on my end. I’ll PM you when I’m ready next week.


Sounds great! Have an fantastic thanksgiving in the meantime...


----------



## khollister

I received my 16" M1 Max with 64GB and 8TB SSD today. Everything checks out (screen is gorgeous BTW and, yes, it is big and heavy) and I decided to do a bare metal reinstall of everything (except for MacOS) instead of a migration from the M1 MacBook Pro.

My god is this boring  Have the UAD stuff rocking, SoundID (Sonarworks) working, Logic installed and I'm slogging through plugin and library installs.


----------



## Fox

I also got my 16" M1 Max with 64GB and 8TB SSD today. I'm headed out for the Thanksgiving week, so I'm installing a bunch of stuff tonight before I board the plane tomorrow. It'll be a while, though, before I really have a chance to test things.


----------



## Michael Antrum

khollister said:


> I received my 16" M1 Max with 64GB and 8TB SSD today. Everything checks out (screen is gorgeous BTW and, yes, it is big and heavy) and I decided to do a bare metal reinstall of everything (except for MacOS) instead of a migration from the M1 MacBook Pro.
> 
> My god is this boring  Have the UAD stuff rocking, SoundID (Sonarworks) working, Logic installed and I'm slogging through plugin and library installs.


My heart bleeds……..😁


----------



## colony nofi

Fox said:


> I also got my 16" M1 Max with 64GB and 8TB SSD today. I'm headed out for the Thanksgiving week, so I'm installing a bunch of stuff tonight before I board the plane tomorrow. It'll be a while, though, before I really have a chance to test things.


This is the spirit!
One of everything please.
(i look forward to hearing how your tests go....one could get rid of a tonne of external drives with that - possibly not even need one for general duties on the road aside from backup!)


----------



## khollister

Still a long ways from having everything installed and configured, but I did install Kontakt, Diva, Repo and Omnisphere/Keyscape/Trillian. I have some quick & dirty benchmark tests I did with my iMac Pro and M1 which I ran a couple of for comparison. The Kontakt test used instances of Luftrum Lunaris playing 5 voice block chords with the Atmospheric Refractions snapshot. 128 buffer (doesn't matter since I select an empty audio track for playback), Large process buffer, all 10 cores. Shut down Safari, Mail etc but left background stuff on.

On the 10 core iMac Pro - 38 tracks (it's a fairly CPU intensive patch)
On the M1 - I forget, but it was significantly less - something like 24-26 if I recall
On the M1 Max - 49 tracks. Based on multicore Geekbench, I would expect about 53-54 tracks, so the Rosetta "Kontakt tax" is about 8-10%. This is similar to what I recall from the M1 testing

On the Diva + Repro test, the M1 Max is clearly doing a lot better than the old iMac, but I didn't go until failure on the 16 MBP yet.

Only Monterey issue I have run into so far is the ACB Roland Cloud analog synths (Jup 8, Juno 60, Juno 106) crater the CPU and are unplayable. I had no such problem on Big Sur. The DCB stuff (D-50, JD-800, XV-5080 etc) seem fine.


----------



## gordinho

khollister said:


> Still a long ways from having everything installed and configured, but I did install Kontakt, Diva, Repo and Omnisphere/Keyscape/Trillian. I have some quick & dirty benchmark tests I did with my iMac Pro and M1 which I ran a couple of for comparison. The Kontakt test used instances of Luftrum Lunaris playing 5 voice block chords with the Atmospheric Refractions snapshot. 128 buffer (doesn't matter since I select an empty audio track for playback), Large process buffer, all 10 cores. Shut down Safari, Mail etc but left background stuff on.
> 
> On the 10 core iMac Pro - 38 tracks (it's a fairly CPU intensive patch)
> On the M1 - I forget, but it was significantly less - something like 24-26 if I recall
> On the M1 Max - 49 tracks. Based on multicore Geekbench, I would expect about 53-54 tracks, so the Rosetta "Kontakt tax" is about 8-10%. This is similar to what I recall from the M1 testing
> 
> On the Diva + Repro test, the M1 Max is clearly doing a lot better than the old iMac, but I didn't go until failure on the 16 MBP yet.
> 
> Only Monterey issue I have run into so far is the ACB Roland Cloud analog synths (Jup 8, Juno 60, Juno 106) crater the CPU and are unplayable. I had no such problem on Big Sur. The DCB stuff (D-50, JD-800, XV-5080 etc) seem fine.


How does the previous m1 do on the diva/repro test compared to the max?


----------



## khollister

gordinho said:


> How does the previous m1 do on the diva/repro test compared to the max?


I need to go back and run it again. As I recall I had 12 Diva instances (several voices each) and 6 Repro instances (several voices) on the iMac. As I recall, the M1 did something like 6 Diva and 4 Repro (not certain). I got 14 Divas and 8 Repros on the Max and still wasn't topped out yet. I'll go back and rerun the test project on the M1 and M1 Max along with relevant info later.

Currently busy copying a few TB of sample libraries over and the MBP is warm to the touch for the first time - fans are still at 0 RPM  I need to decipher the sensors in iStatistica, but nothing was over 41C


----------



## PeterKorcek

*How big is the problem of streaming all the samples from 1 disk (although it's 4-8 TB of storage) ?* 

I understand that everything is one place and you don't have to carry anything around, but I like the idea of having the samples spread on different NVME M.2 drives in PCIe slots (quicker when streaming different libraries, if 1 drive goes bad, not all samples are lost, etc). What is your opinion about this?


----------



## khollister

khollister said:


> I need to go back and run it again. As I recall I had 12 Diva instances (several voices each) and 6 Repro instances (several voices) on the iMac. As I recall, the M1 did something like 6 Diva and 4 Repro (not certain). I got 14 Divas and 8 Repros on the Max and still wasn't topped out yet. I'll go back and rerun the test project on the M1 and M1 Max along with relevant info later.
> 
> Currently busy copying a few TB of sample libraries over and the MBP is warm to the touch for the first time - fans are still at 0 RPM  I need to decipher the sensors in iStatistica, but nothing was over 41C


OK - turns out I had different settings on different instances of Diva and Repro (quality mode and multi-threading, which the native version doesn't like). So while I am less certain of my iMac Pro baseline, I went in and fixed everything up to:

Diva: quality=Great, MC OFF
Repro: MC OFF, HQ OFF

The MIDI (same on all tracks) is a block chord progression of about 5-6 voices per instance.

Apollo X8, UAD 9.15 drivers/SW, 128 buffer (selected blank audio track for playback, so _mach nichts_), process buffer Large, Playback & Live. No other plugins in the project, 48K, 64 bit internal precision.

And the results:

M1 13" MacBook Pro: *14 tracks of Diva, 6 tracks of Repro 5*
M1 Max 16" MacBook Pro: *24 tracks of Diva, 11 tracks of Repro*

Roughly 75% average increase for the M1 Max vs M1, which is pretty damn close to the multicore Geekbench score delta.

In both cases, no other apps were running other than a couple small background things up in the menubar I didn't feel like killing off.

This simply confirms what I have discovered every time I attempt any sort of testing in Logic - the multicore Geekbench 5 scores are fairly indicative of what's going to happen in Logic, at least.

@jcrosby and I are planning a more intensive Kontakt-only test project to compare against his i9 MBP later this week. Based on my quick & dirty Lunaris testing, I expect the results will roughly follow the Geekbench scores minus a small Rosetta tax for Kontakt on the M1.

BTW, Diva and Repro are AS native as are the UAD drivers (and almost all the plugins although they weren't used here). Only the Console app is Intel only at this point (which was not running during these tests).


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

PeterKorcek said:


> *How big is the problem of streaming all the samples from 1 disk (although it's 4-8 TB of storage) ?*
> 
> I understand that everything is one place and you don't have to carry anything around, but I like the idea of having the samples spread on different NVME M.2 drives in PCIe slots (quicker when streaming different libraries, if 1 drive goes bad, not all samples are lost, etc). What is your opinion about this?



Who among us can resist a bad analogy?

This seems a little like putting your toothbrush in one bag and your toothpaste in another in case one doesn't make it to the luggage carousel. 

To me the only issue is that you don't want your internal drive to fail on M1 Macs (I think there's a link earlier in this thread that explains it).


----------



## khollister

PeterKorcek said:


> *How big is the problem of streaming all the samples from 1 disk (although it's 4-8 TB of storage) ?*
> 
> I understand that everything is one place and you don't have to carry anything around, but I like the idea of having the samples spread on different NVME M.2 drives in PCIe slots (quicker when streaming different libraries, if 1 drive goes bad, not all samples are lost, etc). What is your opinion about this?


I don't expect any problem whatsoever performance wise (or I wouldn't have sprung for the Big Boy internal drive) given the crazy fast speeds it delivers. I get the theoretical advantage of multiple drives, but I end up being CPU or RAM limited, not disk throughput, even with sample players that can actually take advantage of faster SSD's - VSL Synchron, OPUS, etc. I have been playing with turning the preload buffers in everything way down and still never see the disk meter in Logic barely register. I certainly never was disk limited running 4 SATA SSD's over a single TB connection (max aggregate bandwidth of 2.8GBs or 4 x 700 MBs), so a single drive at over twice that speed is not likely to be a real-world concern. 

And as I and others have said before, we are not advocating buying one of these laptops as a desktop substitute unless your workflow requires some mobile operation. In that case multiple PCIe NVMe drives is not an option since your are ultimately limited by the available bandwidth over TB3/4. 

I have discussed the failure points already here. While using multiple drives provides some partial availability improvements, the MBTF is actually worse because you are relying on 4 devices not one. There is no guarantee the one that fails only has non-essential libraries on it. If your internal SSD dies on a M1 Mac, you are dead in the water regardless of how many backups of your sample libs you have with you - Apple Silicon Macs cannot be booted from an external drive _*if the internal SSD is non-operational*_. You can carry this availability/disaster recovery paranoia to crazy lengths - are you going to carry a spare laptop as well as all of your media?

When I'm on the road, I hate having a table/desk full of shit just to do anything. While I take an Apollo Solo, TB4 hub, MIDI CC faders, etc, it's nice just to plug a small MIDI keyboard (Arturia Keystep in my case) in along with my Oppo PM-5 headphones directly into the Mac and go to town. 

If you need a rolling Pelican case, you're doing it wrong


----------



## jcrosby

khollister said:


> OK - turns out I had different settings on different instances of Diva and Repro (quality mode and multi-threading, which the native version doesn't like). So while I am less certain of my iMac Pro baseline, I went in and fixed everything up to:
> 
> Diva: quality=Great, MC OFF
> Repro: MC OFF, HQ OFF
> 
> The MIDI (same on all tracks) is a block chord progression of about 5-6 voices per instance.
> 
> Apollo X8, UAD 9.15 drivers/SW, 128 buffer (selected blank audio track for playback, so _mach nichts_), process buffer Large, Playback & Live. No other plugins in the project, 48K, 64 bit internal precision.
> 
> And the results:
> 
> M1 13" MacBook Pro: *14 tracks of Diva, 6 tracks of Repro 5*
> M1 Max 16" MacBook Pro: *24 tracks of Diva, 11 tracks of Repro*
> 
> Roughly 75% average increase for the M1 Max vs M1, which is pretty damn close to the multicore Geekbench score delta.
> 
> In both cases, no other apps were running other than a couple small background things up in the menubar I didn't feel like killing off.
> 
> This simply confirms what I have discovered every time I attempt any sort of testing in Logic - the multicore Geekbench 5 scores are fairly indicative of what's going to happen in Logic, at least.
> 
> @jcrosby and I are planning a more intensive Kontakt-only test project to compare against his i9 MBP later this week. Based on my quick & dirty Lunaris testing, I expect the results will roughly follow the Geekbench scores minus a small Rosetta tax for Kontakt on the M1.
> 
> BTW, Diva and Repro are AS native as are the UAD drivers (and almost all the plugins although they weren't used here). Only the Console app is Intel only at this point (which was not running during these tests).


Looking promising so far... Sounds great, I'll put together a project with a ton of single instance Albion patches. Most likely Friday/Saturday depending on how involved the holiday gets.


----------



## Nimrod7

khollister said:


> And the results:
> 
> M1 13" MacBook Pro: *14 tracks of Diva, 6 tracks of Repro 5*
> M1 Max 16" MacBook Pro: *24 tracks of Diva, 11 tracks of Repro*


Wow, interesting results, thanks for the effort running a test!

It's funny, because I participated in the OneSynth competition from KVR back in 2011(?), and I was able to run 24 tracks of Diva, at least 10 of them at the same time (some of them playing chords), on a 2006 Mac Pro 4 core!
There is a video from the time here.

Considering the CPU technology advancements 16 years later, I was expecting to see probably 100 Diva instances!

However I believe HQ mode was not existing then. Diva was on beta, but on the other hand it was not optimized fully also.


----------



## khollister

Nimrod7 said:


> Wow, interesting results, thanks for the effort running a test!
> 
> It's funny, because I participated in the OneSynth completion from KVR back in 2011(?), and I was able to run 24 tracks of Diva, at least 10 of them at the same time (some of them playing chords), on a 2006 Mac Pro 4 core!
> There is a video from the time here.
> 
> Considering the CPU technology advancements 16 years later, I was expecting to see probably 100 Diva instances!
> 
> However I believe HQ mode was not existing then. Diva was on beta, but on the other hand it was not optimized fully also.


All 24 tracks were playing simultaneously with identical chords, so we are talking something like 120+ Diva voices plus another 50-60 voices on Repro. And the patches selected have long release tails, so the voice buildup is not insignificant.

I realize the absolute track count doesn't sound impressive, but this is a completely artificial project using these synths in a way you would never do in real life.


----------



## el-bo

khollister said:


> Still a long ways from having everything installed and configured.



Just a little tip (Not sure it's common knowledge): When installing plugins, always keep at least one of the previously-installed installer windows open. That ay, you won't need to type your password in for every install


----------



## Morodiene

I'm looking to use credit cards points to upgrade my 2014 Macbook Pro (i7, 16GB Ram, 250GB SSD), which still runs very well, it just can't do production when I'm traveling or recording out of the home. I have enough to get the M1 Max 16" 32GB 1TB, so I can run a comparison, but I can tell you right now it does not take much for things to get overloaded on my current system, even with freezing tracks. Apple says 5-7 weeks to ship, so it will be a while. In the meantime, I'd really love to get some comparisons between a 16gb m1 and a 32 gb m1 running orch templates - all the comps I've seen are for video.


----------



## ridgero

Morodiene said:


> I'm looking to use credit cards points to upgrade my 2014 Macbook Pro (i7, 16GB Ram, 250GB SSD), which still runs very well, it just can't do production when I'm traveling or recording out of the home. I have enough to get the M1 Max 16" 32GB 1TB, so I can run a comparison, but I can tell you right now it does not take much for things to get overloaded on my current system, even with freezing tracks. Apple says 5-7 weeks to ship, so it will be a while. In the meantime, I'd really love to get some comparisons between a 16gb m1 and a 32 gb m1 running orch templates - all the comps I've seen are for video.


Getting mine in 2 weeks! 🥰


----------



## rnb_2

Morodiene said:


> I'm looking to use credit cards points to upgrade my 2014 Macbook Pro (i7, 16GB Ram, 250GB SSD), which still runs very well, it just can't do production when I'm traveling or recording out of the home. I have enough to get the M1 Max 16" 32GB 1TB, so I can run a comparison, but I can tell you right now it does not take much for things to get overloaded on my current system, even with freezing tracks. Apple says 5-7 weeks to ship, so it will be a while. In the meantime, I'd really love to get some comparisons between a 16gb m1 and a 32 gb m1 running orch templates - all the comps I've seen are for video.


Keep an eye out for @khollister and @jcrosby ’s upcoming tests. Also, you can probably save some money by going with the M1Pro instead of the Max - the latter is probably only worth it for composers if you need 64GB of RAM, as the extra GPU cores and memory bandwidth are really hard to utilize unless you’re doing high-end video work. You can use the savings toward more storage instead: upgrading from 1TB to 2TB costs the same as upgrading from the Pro to the Max.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Morodiene said:


> 16gb m1 and a 32 gb m1 running orch templates


I have yet to see proof (and doubt any is forthcoming) that M1, M2...M50 is a substitute for memory when you're streaming samples.


----------



## audio1

This video offers some insights:


----------



## khollister

audio1 said:


> This video offers some insights:



There are a lot of procedural mistakes (and lack of technical knowledge about how Logic and MacOS works) in this. Nothing to see here - move along


----------



## khollister

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I have yet to see proof (and doubt any is forthcoming) that M1, M2...M50 is a substitute for memory when you're streaming samples.


Obviously I lean towards your opinion since I bought a 64GB machine. However, the internal I/O speed does alter the calculus somewhat but I am still of the opinion that you can't fit 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag. I used a 16GB M1 MBP this summer and while it was an impressive machine, it requires a very different way of working. The YT videos showing no difference in performance with Final Cut or Resolve vs RAM is NOT the same as an audio application with dozens (or hundreds) of real-time threads playing. More than a few folks here experimented with 16GB M1's over the past year and 16GB only takes you so far. Unless you are doing EDM or other mostly synth-based productions, start at 32GB and seriously consider 64, especially if you are template based.


----------



## holywilly

Is it a good idea to partition 8TB of MacBook Pro’s internal drive for sample streaming? Like 1TB for system and 7 TB for samples 

I might order a max out MacBook Pro 16 inch when it’s available in my country.


----------



## audio1

khollister said:


> There are a lot of procedural mistakes (and lack of technical knowledge about how Logic and MacOS works) in this. Nothing to see here - move along


well, we bought 3 of these units maxed out. I'm guessing I'll make a few "procedural" mistakes running vi instances and other tests. probably won't post any results to avoid upsetting anyone.


----------



## clisma

audio1 said:


> well, we bought 3 of these units maxed out. I'm guessing I'll make a few "procedural" mistakes running vi instances and other tests. probably won't post any results to avoid upsetting anyone.


To be fair, the guy in the video was playing back the session with the Stack header selected and in Record armed mode. That means all of the tracks within the stack are armed and live, technically on one core unless I'm mistaken. Not sure why anyone would want/need to do that. Who would be so heartless to torture their Mac in this fashion? Heathen.

I kid. Sorta.


----------



## rnb_2

holywilly said:


> Is it a good idea to partition 8TB of MacBook Pro’s internal drive for sample streaming? Like 1TB for system and 7 TB for samples
> 
> I might order a max out MacBook Pro 16 inch when it’s available in my country.


You can do this for your own organizational reasons, but with the way that SSDs work, partitioning has no real effect on how the system runs. With the most recent versions of macOS, the OS is actually its own read-only volume, completely separate from user data, no matter what you do.

On top of that, the APFS file system doesn't have to "partition" in the same way that older formats did - though you can do it that way, there's no real reason to. With APFS, multiple volumes can share space - you don't have to give one 1TB and another 7TB, you can have two volumes that use up to 8TB total, with no hard limits on either (though you can define both a "reserved" starting size for a volume and a maximum size, if you like).


----------



## holywilly

rnb_2 said:


> You can do this for your own organizational reasons, but with the way that SSDs work, partitioning has no real effect on how the system runs. With the most recent versions of macOS, the OS is actually its own read-only volume, completely separate from user data, no matter what you do.
> 
> On top of that, the APFS file system doesn't have to "partition" in the same way that older formats did - though you can do it that way, there's no real reason to. With APFS, multiple volumes can share space - you don't have to give one 1TB and another 7TB, you can have two volumes that use up to 8TB total, with no hard limits on either (though you can define both a "reserved" starting size for a volume and a maximum size, if you like).


Thanks for your help. The reason I'm planning for doing partition is to have everything on one laptop instead of carrying all the external gadgets around. I think I'll just throw everything in the 8TB for mobile purpose.


----------



## rnb_2

holywilly said:


> Thanks for your help. The reason I'm planning for doing partition is to have everything on one laptop instead of carrying all the external gadgets around. I think I'll just throw everything in the 8TB for mobile purpose.


I understand. However, you don't have to partition the drive - you can just put everything in your user folder, or you can create a folder for all of your samples, or you can create a separate volume for all of your samples. The computer won't really care, so whatever works for your organization needs will be fine.


----------



## Soundbed

khollister said:


> multiple PCIe NVMe drives is not an option since your are ultimately limited by the available bandwidth over TB3/4.


What does this mean? Multiple nvme drives are possible with TB3. I use two every day. I don’t understand what limitation you’re talking about, sorry.


----------



## holywilly

rnb_2 said:


> I understand. However, you don't have to partition the drive - you can just put everything in your user folder, or you can create a folder for all of your samples, or you can create a separate volume for all of your samples. The computer won't really care, so whatever works for your organization needs will be fine.


Awesome! That's all I need to know. Thanks.


----------



## khollister

clisma said:


> To be fair, the guy in the video was playing back the session with the Stack header selected and in Record armed mode. That means all of the tracks within the stack are armed and live, technically on one core unless I'm mistaken. Not sure why anyone would want/need to do that. Who would be so heartless to torture their Mac in this fashion? Heathen.
> 
> I kid. Sorta.


That's a great example of where stuff like this goes off the rails. It makes it very difficult for folks to compare results. In general I see a lot of videos where the people are completely oblivious to how Logic's double buffer engine works and they do things that have huge impacts on performance. I always create a single empty audio track and select that before hitting Play. That way all of the other tracks are playing back at the Process Buffer size, not the low buffer set for record armed tracks.


----------



## khollister

Soundbed said:


> What does this mean? Multiple nvme drives are possible with TB3. I use two every day. I don’t understand what limitation you’re talking about, sorry.


The "problem" is that a single TB3/4 bus (each TB port/connector on the new MBP's has a dedicated bus/controller) is limited to about 2800 MBs for data - the rest is reserved for video and overhead. So while you can daisy chain multiple NVMe drives, everyone has to share the 2800 MBs if all are being accessed simultaneously.

So connecting multiple NVMe drives that each have a 2500-3500 MBs capability is all going to get squeezed through a single 2800 MBs pipe.

It's just a "heads up" that you don't get 5GBs (= 40Gbs for TB3) from disks on a single TB bus. In real life sample streaming performance, it may not make any difference (it certainly doesn't for Kontakt).


----------



## Vik

khollister said:


> It's just a "heads up" that you don't get 5GBs (= 40Gbs for TB3) from disks on a single TB bus. In real life sample streaming performance, it may not make any difference (it certainly doesn't for Kontakt).


Still, people may rely on more than one TB bus – and also spread samples between external drives and an internal drive if needed. According to earlier posts on this forum, Kontakt will read a max of only 150 (!) megabytes/second anyway – but even if that would be correct, in real life, VI users may want to read samples from both Kontakt, Play, Opus, Sine, the Spitfire player and Synchron players from the same drive, simultaneously. 

Apparently, Sine can read 1gb/second already, and we don't know what the next generation of Kontakt will read at. I know nothing about the limits in the Synchron player, the SF player and so on (anyone?), but with up to 6 different sample players and up to, say, three different drives, we'll be able to benefit from a lot more bandwidth than Kontakts current, low specs.

Not only are there drives with read speeds around 7,5 gigabytes/second already, but there's a lot of focus on read speeds both within AMD and Intel, PCI5 is already happening and PCI 6 is on its way. Apple is so far only at M1 (with some variations), of course there will be M2, M2 and so on – so it still makes sense to buy drives that will benefit from the upcoming Mac generations, unless one wants to switch to new drives often. But for most of us, most of the time, being able to read at 2800 mb/sec should be quite satisfying.


----------



## khollister

Vik said:


> Still, people may rely on more than one TB bus – and also spread samples between external drives and an internal drive if needed. According to earlier posts on this forum, Kontakt will read a max of only 150 (!) megabytes/second anyway – but even if that would be correct, in real life, VI users may want to read samples from both Kontakt, Play, Opus, Sine, the Spitfire player and Synchron players from the same drive, simultaneously.
> 
> Apparently, Sine can read 1gb/second already, and we don't know what the next generation of Kontakt will read at. I know nothing about the limits in the Synchron player, the SF player and so on (anyone?), but with up to 6 different sample players and up to, say, three different drives, we'll be able to benefit from a lot more bandwidth than Kontakts current, low specs.
> 
> Not only are there drives with read speeds around 7,5 gigabytes/second already, but there's a lot of focus on read speeds both within AMD and Intel, PCI5 is already happening and PCI 6 is on its way. Apple is so far only at M1 (with some variations), of course there will be M2, M2 and so on – so it still makes sense to buy drives that will benefit from the upcoming Mac generations, unless one wants to switch to new drives often. But for most of us, most of the time, being able to read at 2800 mb/sec should be quite satisfying.


I don't disagree in practical terms. This got started based on discussions about using external TB drives rather than spring for the larger internal SSD. I was pointing out that you technically could not duplicate the performance of the internal drive via TB (as opposed to using actual PCIe cards/drives in a Mac Pro or desktop PC). Whether that makes any difference for audio is certainly debatable - we know the answer with Kontakt.


----------



## Vik

khollister said:


> I was pointing out that you technically could not duplicate the performance of the internal drive via TB (as opposed to using actual PCIe cards/drives in a Mac Pro or desktop PC). Whether that makes any difference for audio is certainly debatable - we know the answer with Kontakt.


...and it's not even relevant to look only at Thunderbolt limitations and transfer speeds. Memory matters as well, and while the fastest Intel iMacs are based on DDR4, DDR5 is twice as fast and DDR6 is supposedly twice as fast (four times as fast as DDR4), and DDR7 is already being discussed. Then there's memory latency/bandwidth and all that.









Preliminary DDR7 specs put the next-gen RAM's top speed at 5 times that of standard DDR5


The bleeding edge of DRAM technology is now officially known as DDR5, rated for twice the data-transfer rates of its predecessor DDR4. However, its own next generation, DDR6, is now slated to launch with double these new speeds - or less than half those of DDR7 again. Both upcoming upgrades are...




www.notebookcheck.net





Computer/transfer/memory speed is generally a diminishing problem. NCB/M (newly composed bars/month) is what matters .


----------



## Soundbed

khollister said:


> The "problem" is that a single TB3/4 bus (each TB port/connector on the new MBP's has a dedicated bus/controller) is limited to about 2800 MBs for data - the rest is reserved for video and overhead. So while you can daisy chain multiple NVMe drives, everyone has to share the 2800 MBs if all are being accessed simultaneously.
> 
> So connecting multiple NVMe drives that each have a 2500-3500 MBs capability is all going to get squeezed through a single 2800 MBs pipe.
> 
> It's just a "heads up" that you don't get 5GBs (= 40Gbs for TB3) from disks on a single TB bus. In real life sample streaming performance, it may not make any difference (it certainly doesn't for Kontakt).


Thanks for explaining in detail. 

Do you think Apple will “fix” this with a firmware update? (Possibly firmware from Intel?)


----------



## gordinho

I just have to ask... is there a religious anti track freeze belief I am unaware of? I remember freezing a lot of tracks as being part of the process 20 years ago to work with the hardware at the time.


----------



## Soundbed

gordinho said:


> I just have to ask... is there a religious anti track freeze belief I am unaware of? I remember freezing a lot of tracks as being part of the process 20 years ago to work with the hardware at the time.


Yes and no.

Some people have a hard time with that workflow but not everyone, of course.

One of the most compelling cases for keeping it all in MIDI / Instruments is film composers who might be frequently asked for revisions especially if they need to respond to different "cuts" of the film coming in. In these cases, it is a hassle to unfreeze all (relevant) tracks, make the edit, and re-freeze. I did some tests on my M1 (the first one, which I've now returned to Apple) and it's not blazing fast to unfreeze and refreeze. It "feels" super slow with lots of tracks to freeze or unfreeze.

I think the rule of thumb is to test the machine for the most challenging workflow. And then the less intensive workflows will also (most likely) work.

The "issue" for the most demanding users is that people who test 500 reverbs aren't exercising a real-world workflow.

However I think there's a balance to be struck when you're trying to get the most out of a machine. For instance, I think (personally) purging RAM from Kontakt is perfectly fine (as a workflow).

Limiting the max number of voices in Kontakt is time consuming, and I'm not sure of the actual increase in instruments you get from it but it might contribute.

Increasing your DAW's buffer size to 1024 is going to potentially get rid of some audio "glitches" or clicks but some people hate hate hate that tradeoff ... so there's definitely some tradeoffs that more people can get on board with, but others that have fewer adopters.

Freezing audio (while writing) is sort of a polarizing topic.

Some people actually love freezing to audio because it helps them commit to decisions and move forward on a piece.

Other people — like trailer composers — frequently incorporate a lot of audio in their work all along the way (risers, downers, booms, sfx) and as many as half of their tracks might be audio from the beginning.

So it really varies from person to person.

In other words YES some peoples' religion precludes them from freezing audio. For. Sure. /sarcasm


----------



## khollister

Soundbed said:


> Thanks for explaining in detail.
> 
> Do you think Apple will “fix” this with a firmware update? (Possibly firmware from Intel?)


It's not something to be fixed, it's just how the thunderbolt standard is defined. There may well be future thunderbolt standards by Intel that increase the total bandwidth (thunderbolt 5?), but Apple/Intel aren't going to fiddle with the existing standards IMHO (nor should they).

From a practical standpoint as far as streaming samples goes, all this may well be inconsequential.


----------



## Vik

Thunderbolt 5 may offer 80 gbps USB-C ports, and this won't stop. Plus, it's beneficial for Intel's and Apple's economy (and for the whole computer industry) that we can't buy what we want to buy today – most likely they'll fade in all the good stuff gradually.








Intel leak reveals Thunderbolt 5 could offer 80Gbps USB-C ports


Twice as fast as Thunderbolt 4.




www.theverge.com


----------



## Soundbed

khollister said:


> It's not something to be fixed, it's just how the thunderbolt standard is defined. There may well be future thunderbolt standards by Intel that increase the total bandwidth (thunderbolt 5?), but Apple/Intel aren't going to fiddle with the existing standards IMHO (nor should they).
> 
> From a practical standpoint as far as streaming samples goes, all this may well be inconsequential.


Ok, got it. I was trying to research (before coffee) and got lost in some articles with people who had horrible streaming speeds. _They_ were looking for firmware updates. But, their speeds were much slower than your numbers.

For my NVMe drives I am limited by my NVMe enclosure speeds right now, and perfectly happy with around 900MB/s as measured by Blackmagic Disk Speed Test.

My main internal dialog goes; it's faster than SATA (for my 1080p video work and maybe SINE or some of the others like Spitfire and VSL Players) and doesn't need to be as fast as the internal drive, for what I do currently.

~

Idea ...

It might be interesting though to see if a single drive at ... say 450MB/s was not able to deliver samples in time to 40 instances of Kontakt (each pulling at "only" 500MB/s or so). I don't know exactly how to conduct such a test myself; measuring the speed at which multiple Kontakts are trying to read samples from a single disk to find out if the bottleneck is indeed Kontakt or "the drive" (in quotes to imply everything that goes into pulling data off the drive).

Obviously we could compare/contrast a much faster drive but to do so scientifically would be cumbersome, to have everything else exactly the same and run an A/B comparison with all the same data first pulling from one slow drive, and then all instances of Kontakt on the exact same machine all get re-linked to the same samples and same patches on a different drive. Sounds like a huge PIA to do such a test (without introducing handfuls of other variables).


----------



## Soundbed

Vik said:


> Thunderbolt 5 may offer 80 gbps USB-C ports, and this won't stop. Plus, it's beneficial for Intel's and Apple's economy (and for the whole computer industry) that we can't buy what we want to buy today – most likely they'll fade in all the good stuff gradually.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intel leak reveals Thunderbolt 5 could offer 80Gbps USB-C ports
> 
> 
> Twice as fast as Thunderbolt 4.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theverge.com


I don't like planning for next week. Nevermind planning for Thunderbolt 5.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

gordinho said:


> I just have to ask... is there a religious anti track freeze belief I am unaware of? I remember freezing a lot of tracks as being part of the process 20 years ago to work with the hardware at the time.


For me there is. Well, it's not religious in the sense that I have faith that everyone else has to agree with me because it's sacred, but to me it's always been an interim kludge from the days when you could only load a couple of GB of samples.

And nowadays it's not necessary anyway (he says, looking at his 12-year-old computer).


----------



## Morodiene

rnb_2 said:


> Keep an eye out for @khollister and @jcrosby ’s upcoming tests. Also, you can probably save some money by going with the M1Pro instead of the Max - the latter is probably only worth it for composers if you need 64GB of RAM, as the extra GPU cores and memory bandwidth are really hard to utilize unless you’re doing high-end video work. You can use the savings toward more storage instead: upgrading from 1TB to 2TB costs the same as upgrading from the Pro to the Max.


Thanks for the info! With my credit card points that I'm using to "buy" this, I do not have the option for get 32GB with the M1 pro, thus why I need to go with the Max, but I don't want to use more points to get to 64GB. I have two external SSD cards, so I think 1TB will be sufficient as well. But anyways, I agree with what you say, I'm limited in my choices, that's all.


----------



## rnb_2

Morodiene said:


> Thanks for the info! With my credit card points that I'm using to "buy" this, I do not have the option for get 32GB with the M1 pro, thus why I need to go with the Max, but I don't want to use more points to get to 64GB. I have two external SSD cards, so I think 1TB will be sufficient as well. But anyways, I agree with what you say, I'm limited in my choices, that's all.


Ah - so you have to get a standard config to use your points. Got it. Unfortunate, but I can't argue with a (for all intents and purposes) "free" laptop.


----------



## jcrosby

i9 8 Core MBP vs M1 Max MBP Kontakt instance comparison to come shortly...

@khollister the project is more or less ready to go. You'll get a PM from me shortly with a link to the Logic file...


----------



## khollister

jcrosby said:


> i9 8 Core MBP vs M1 Max MBP Kontakt instance comparison to come shortly...
> 
> @khollister the project is more or less ready to go. You'll get a PM from me shortly with a link to the Logic file...


I'm on it


----------



## khollister

So I have been testing various scenarios out all morning, including the Kontakt (Albions) project @jcrosby sent me. So far some puzzling/frustrating results as well as some surprising (as in good) ones.

This is going to require a lot more explanation but the results so far...

@jcrosby said he got 276 tracks on his last gen i9 MBP. As it turns out, there are a few dozen silent tracks because the MIDI is in the wrong octave to trigger the specific patch used, but the best I could do was 285 and I'm having trouble repeating that. The puzzling thing is how Logic is reacting. When I get an overload message and I stop playback, all of the logic threads stay at 100% even though the actual cores in Activity Monitor are at an idle state. Even when I got to 285, the actual cores were not heavily loaded.

I then decided to try Omnisphere (native ARM). I picked a string-like patch kind of at random (Agape Warmth, which has a long release leading to voice buildup), played in the monophonic MIDI line used for the Albion test and got to about 250 tracks. This time, the logic threads were at 100% and the actual cores in the OS were at 90-95% (no fan noise BTW). I no longer have my iMac Pro, so I don't have an Intel comparison for this or anything else I tried today. Interesting that this used about 40GB of RAM, same as the Kontakt Albion project.

I then tried BBCSO, ARO and Originals Epic Strings. Same MIDI pattern. I managed about 340 tracks in Originals before audible drop-outs (no overload message and threads in LPX were not maxed out yet).Both the beta native BBCSO and native ARO behaved very oddly. The indicated CPU load both in LPX and MacOS was low, but I got dropouts at track counts of only 80-100 even though the indicated load in LPX was less than 50%. I need to reach out to Spitfire on this as something was very fishy with their player.

Then I tried what I personally care about the most because it is what I use the most lately - VSL Synchron Player (still via Rosetta). I used the same monophonic MIDI with all 5 string parts playing legato. I used the default room mix preset (3 mic channels) with the internal reverb off. I got 200 tracks with LPX behaving pretty well. I could go right to indicated 100% with no dropouts and the cores in Activity Monitor were pretty proportional - although not loaded as much as with Omni. The really good news - only 13GB of RAM with the default preload settings. I have observed some CPU spiking initially with Synchron Player under Rosetta compared to my iMac, so I was expecting a lot worse results here. I expect improvement once VSL goes native.

Clearly, NI has some problems on their hands with Kontakt and Rosetta at least. It is interesting when I use Kontakt instruments with a lot of scripting, effects & modulation and poly voices (more CPU per instance, fewer instances) the M1 Max exceeded the performance of the Intel machine by a good margin. Clearly with large numbers of simple instances, Kontakt under Rosetta falls apart.

One thing I might try is to redo a subset of Crosby;s project with Kontakt multis to reduce the instance count.

Just getting started ...


----------



## Morodiene

khollister said:


> So I have been testing various scenarios out all morning, including the Kontakt (Albions) project @jcrosby sent me. So far some puzzling/frustrating results as well as some surprising (as in good) ones.
> 
> This is going to require a lot more explanation but the results so far...
> 
> @jcrosby said he got 276 tracks on his last gen i9 MBP. As it turns out, there are a few dozen silent tracks because the MIDI is in the wrong octave to trigger the specific patch used, but the best I could do was 285 and I'm having trouble repeating that. The puzzling thing is how Logic is reacting. When I get an overload message and I stop playback, all of the logic threads stay at 100% even though the actual cores in Activity Monitor are at an idle state. Even when I got to 285, the actual cores were not heavily loaded.
> 
> I then decided to try Omnisphere (native ARM). I picked a string-like patch kind of at random (Agape Warmth, which has a long release leading to voice buildup), played in the monophonic MIDI line used for the Albion test and got to about 250 tracks. This time, the logic threads were at 100% and the actual cores in the OS were at 90-95% (no fan noise BTW). I no longer have my iMac Pro, so I don't have an Intel comparison for this or anything else I tried today. Interesting that this used about 40GB of RAM, same as the Kontakt Albion project.
> 
> I then tried BBCSO, ARO and Originals Epic Strings. Same MIDI pattern. I managed about 340 tracks in Originals before audible drop-outs (no overload message and threads in LPX were not maxed out yet).Both the beta native BBCSO and native ARO behaved very oddly. The indicated CPU load both in LPX and MacOS was low, but I got dropouts at track counts of only 80-100 even though the indicated load in LPX was less than 50%. I need to reach out to Spitfire on this as something was very fishy with their player.
> 
> Then I tried what I personally care about the most because it is what I use the most lately - VSL Synchron Player (still via Rosetta). I used the same monophonic MIDI with all 5 string parts playing legato. I used the default room mix preset (3 mic channels) with the internal reverb off. I got 200 tracks with LPX behaving pretty well. I could go right to indicated 100% with no dropouts and the cores in Activity Monitor were pretty proportional - although not loaded as much as with Omni. The really good news - only 13GB of RAM with the default preload settings. I have observed some CPU spiking initially with Synchron Player under Rosetta compared to my iMac, so I was expecting a lot worse results here. I expect improvement once VSL goes native.
> 
> Clearly, NI has some problems on their hands with Kontakt and Rosetta at least. It is interesting when I use Kontakt instruments with a lot of scripting, effects & modulation and poly voices (more CPU per instance, fewer instances) the M1 Max exceeded the performance of the Intel machine by a good margin. Clearly with large numbers of simple instances, Kontakt under Rosetta falls apart.
> 
> One thing I might try is to redo a subset of Crosby;s project with Kontakt multis to reduce the instance count.
> 
> Just getting started ...


What were you comparing with the M1 Max MBP? I tried to scroll back to see what other machine, but didn't see it.


----------



## Pier

@khollister could you do this quick test?

Open up Diva's preset HS Amped Forces. Write 1 note 1 bar long. Loop the bar. Duplicate the track until you get crackles.

How many tracks do you get?

In my Ryzen 3700X I got about 32 tracks with 256 @ 48Khz.


----------



## Vik

I think they are comparing an Intel i9 8 Core MacBook Pro with an M1 MacBook Pro Max, Morodiene, but it would be nice with as much details as possible. Maybe we collectively could come up with a project that to some degree emulates RL track situations. Info about 200 tracks playing the same melody (without knowing anything about memory, buffer size etc) isn't something we'll see in a real life situations... and even if they were split across 5 instruments, that's still a project where 40 tracks are playing the same thing - times five. It's a good start, but maybe not 'benchmarky' enough – and maybe quite far from how real life tracks would behave (with different stuff on each track, some vibrato and modulation automation and so on).

My earlier experience with home made benchmark comparisons is that duplicating a track many times doesn't tell us much that's related to how we actually work, so I'm working on making a test project where...

- no _tracks_ are duplicated, but a modified original region is duplicated which ensures that it contains different notes and samples than the others
– there's some automation on each track
– each track either use a different mic setting than the previous one, or a different articulation (con sordino instead of instead of 'normale', for instance)
– all tracks use the same amount if automation
– all tracks are checked so they only contain notes that actually will be played back
– each track contain a mix of long notes (legato), short notes and some rests

I could share this Logic project here when it's ready, but I guess there are others out there who may have such projects already, or different ideas about what kind of test project that's most useful

On the old and very non-scientific M1 poll about track counts, here, 'Less than 10'' was the poll option that got the most votes, so at first sight 200 looks brilliant, but again – something more similar to real life projects would be very useful.

@khollister: if you have time: what do the meters look like if you disable all but the 5 original Synchron Strings tracks (V1, V1, Va, Vc and Cb)?


----------



## Morodiene

Vik said:


> I think they are comparing an Intel i9 8 Core MacBook Pro with an M1 MacBook Pro Max, Morodiene, but it would be nice with as much details as possible. Maybe we collectively could come up with a project that to some degree emulates RL track situations. Info about 200 tracks playing the same melody (without knowing anything about memory, buffer size etc) isn't something we'll see in a real life situations... and even if they were split across 5 instruments, that's still a project where 40 tracks are playing the same thing - times five. It's a good start, but maybe not 'benchmarky' enough – and maybe quite far from how real life tracks would behave (with different stuff on each track, some vibrato and modulation automation and so on).
> 
> My earlier experience with home made benchmark comparisons is that duplicating a track many times doesn't tell us much that's related to how we actually work, so I'm working on making a test project where...
> 
> - no _tracks_ are duplicated, but a modified original region is duplicated which ensures that it contains different notes and samples than the others
> – there's some automation on each track
> – each track either use a different mic setting than the previous one, or a different articulation (con sordino instead of instead of 'normale', for instance)
> – all tracks use the same amount if automation
> – all tracks are checked so they only contain notes that actually will be played back
> – each track contain a mix of long notes (legato), short notes and some rests
> 
> I could share this Logic project here when it's ready, but I guess there are others out there who may have such projects already, or different ideas about what kind of test project that's most useful
> 
> On the old and very non-scientific M1 poll about track counts, here, 'Less than 10'' was the poll option that got the most votes, so at first sight 200 looks brilliant, but again – something more similar to real life projects would be very useful.
> 
> @khollister: if you have time: what do the meters look like if you disable all but the 5 original Synchron Strings tracks (V1, V1, Va, Vc and Cb)?


Thanks! I will be ordering my M1 Max soon, so whenever that arrives I'll have a comparison with my 2014 i7 MBP 16 GB (which can barely run anything tbh). I'm really excited to upgrade!


----------



## khollister

Morodiene said:


> What were you comparing with the M1 Max MBP? I tried to scroll back to see what other machine, but didn't see it.


I no longer have an Intel Mac. Crosby has a 2020 8 core i9 MacBook Pro and got 274 tracks on the Kontakt/Albion project he built. I just now have gotten to 310 and may still have a few more tracks to go.


----------



## khollister

Pier said:


> @khollister could you do this quick test?
> 
> Open up Diva's preset HS Amped Forces. Write 1 note 1 bar long. Loop the bar. Duplicate the track until you get crackles.
> 
> How many tracks do you get?
> 
> In my Ryzen 3700X I got about 32 tracks with 256 @ 48Khz.


Sure - it will be later today, but that's easy to throw together. Any particular quality setting? I will not use Multicore because per Uhrs from u-he, MC doesn't have the expected results on ARM.


----------



## khollister

Vik said:


> I think they are comparing an Intel i9 8 Core MacBook Pro with an M1 MacBook Pro Max, Morodiene, but it would be nice with as much details as possible. Maybe we collectively could come up with a project that to some degree emulates RL track situations. Info about 200 tracks playing the same melody (without knowing anything about memory, buffer size etc) isn't something we'll see in a real life situations... and even if they were split across 5 instruments, that's still a project where 40 tracks are playing the same thing - times five. It's a good start, but maybe not 'benchmarky' enough – and maybe quite far from how real life tracks would behave (with different stuff on each track, some vibrato and modulation automation and so on).
> 
> My earlier experience with home made benchmark comparisons is that duplicating a track many times doesn't tell us much that's related to how we actually work, so I'm working on making a test project where...
> 
> - no _tracks_ are duplicated, but a modified original region is duplicated which ensures that it contains different notes and samples than the others
> – there's some automation on each track
> – each track either use a different mic setting than the previous one, or a different articulation (con sordino instead of instead of 'normale', for instance)
> – all tracks use the same amount if automation
> – all tracks are checked so they only contain notes that actually will be played back
> – each track contain a mix of long notes (legato), short notes and some rests
> 
> I could share this Logic project here when it's ready, but I guess there are others out there who may have such projects already, or different ideas about what kind of test project that's most useful
> 
> On the old and very non-scientific M1 poll about track counts, here, 'Less than 10'' was the poll option that got the most votes, so at first sight 200 looks brilliant, but again – something more similar to real life projects would be very useful.
> 
> @khollister: if you have time: what do the meters look like if you disable all but the 5 original Synchron Strings tracks (V1, V1, Va, Vc and Cb)?


Sure - as soon as I get down trying hit the limit on Justin's test project, I'll load up the Synchron project and grab a photo with my phone


----------



## khollister

Vik said:


> @khollister: if you have time: what do the meters look like if you disable all but the 5 original Synchron Strings tracks (V1, V1, Va, Vc and Cb)?


----------



## Vik

Thanks, kholister, it looks as if each of the active cores in Logic uses roughly 15% of that thread. If 15% equal 5 tracks, maybe you'd get around 30-35 unique and similar tracks in total then, if one thread was reserved for real time stuff? That's not bad, considering that the Synchron Player AFAIK still isn't Apple Silicon native?


----------



## khollister

Pier said:


> @khollister could you do this quick test?
> 
> Open up Diva's preset HS Amped Forces. Write 1 note 1 bar long. Loop the bar. Duplicate the track until you get crackles.
> 
> How many tracks do you get?
> 
> In my Ryzen 3700X I got about 32 tracks with 256 @ 48Khz.


71 tracks, 48K, Quality=Divine, MC=off


----------



## anderslink

Pier said:


> @khollister could you do this quick test?
> 
> Open up Diva's preset HS Amped Forces. Write 1 note 1 bar long. Loop the bar. Duplicate the track until you get crackles.
> 
> How many tracks do you get?
> 
> In my Ryzen 3700X I got about 32 tracks with 256 @ 48Khz.


I got 73 tracks with latest Diva version. Multicore off quality: Great. My specs are M1 Max w 64 gb of ram, 1tb ssd.

One thing I found odd was that compared to my old 4 core i7 macbook 2016 the new m1 max only loaded 2x the presets total for a certain Diva patch, otherwise same settings. I would think it would be at least 3x. In general I have found a range of 2-5x the performance compared to i7 2016 mbp 16 ram. For example Keyscape will literally run 5x the number of tracks.

Kontakt is pretty frustrating because it takes forever to load with rosetta, to the point where if I have a 100+ project it will take more than 5 minutes to load. I guess that's normal? Except for it seems to just be converting one instance at a time. With one project I got up to 367 tracks versus only 91 on my old computer but that project would never open again. It was fine if I waited for it to convert each instance of kontakt for like 5 minutes every time I duplicated tracks, but then it would never load again.


----------



## khollister

Vik said:


> Thanks, kholister, it looks as if each of the active cores in Logic uses roughly 15% of that thread. If 15% equal 5 tracks, maybe you'd get around 30-35 unique and similar tracks in total then, if one thread was reserved for real time stuff? That's not bad, considering that the Synchron Player AFAIK still isn't Apple Silicon native?


Not sure I'm following your logic. Having all tracks play the same MIDI may be more of a worst case scenario since the observed thread load in LPX seems a bit "spike" with note starts. Having a more realistic distribution of notes may average out the load a bit giving better results. Of course a bunch of 1/16 or 1/32 note runs will make things worse probably.

As far as the instruments being the same, I don't think I follow why that matters. I'm pretty sure these players don't combine threads of separate instances into a shared instance. Granted different instruments and articulations have different CPU hits, but that's why I chose legato as kind of a worse case.


----------



## khollister

anderslink said:


> I got 73 tracks with latest Diva version. Multicore off quality: Great. My specs are M1 Max w 64 gb of ram, 1tb ssd.
> 
> One thing I found odd was that compared to my old 4 core i7 macbook 2016 the new m1 max only loaded 2x the presets total for a certain Diva patch, otherwise same settings. I would think it would be at least 3x. In general I have found a range of 2-5x the performance compared to i7 2016 mbp 16 ram. For example Keyscape will literally run 5x the number of tracks.
> 
> Kontakt is pretty frustrating because it takes forever to load with rosetta, to the point where if I have a 100+ project it will take more than 5 minutes to load. I guess that's normal? Except for it seems to just be converting one instance at a time. With one project I got up to 367 tracks versus only 91 on my old computer but that project would never open again. It was fine if I waited for it to convert each instance of kontakt for like 5 minutes every time I duplicated tracks, but then it would never load again.


I noticed on my M1 earlier this year that Diva, and to some degree Repro, didn't scale to Apple Silicon quite like I expected either, compared to the Spectrasonics stuff. Although there isn't much difference between Great and Divine on the M1 where it was more significant on Intel.


----------



## Vik

khollister said:


> Having all tracks play the same MIDI may be more of a worst case scenario since the observed thread load in LPX seems a bit "spike" with note starts.


Yes, but with 30-35 tracks using different samples, it doesn't really matter if the MIDI is the same or not, right? If you double a normale V1 with a con sordin0 V1, these tracks 'don't know' that – and it's irrelevant – the other tracks are playing the same melody.



khollister said:


> Of course a bunch of 1/16 or 1/32 note runs will make things worse probably.



Sure, so such test racks should ideally be a mix of various real life situations, including an occasional fast run.



khollister said:


> As far as the instruments being the same, I don't think I follow why that matters. I'm pretty sure these players don't combine threads of separate instances into a shared instance. Granted different instruments and articulations have different CPU hits, but that's why I chose legato as kind of a worse case.


In my experience, having a V1 playing the same thing on several identical V1 tracks taxes the system a lot less than if I copy the region and play it back with another instrument?

You could say that legato could be a worst case scenario, especially if the tracks are emulating real life projects, with CC1 automation, vibrato changes and so on. Plus, one wouldn't have, say, 33 tracks with legato strings playing similar stuff at the same time...


----------



## khollister

I don't have any quantitative tests from my iMac, but I'm pretty impressed with the CPU efficiency on the new ARM Pigments version too. I could come pretty close to killing a core playing in a track on the iMac - not even close on the M1


----------



## anderslink

khollister said:


> I noticed on my M1 earlier this year that Diva, and to some degree Repro, didn't scale to Apple Silicon quite like I expected either, compared to the Spectrasonics stuff. Although there isn't much difference between Great and Divine on the M1 where it was more significant on Intel.


The i7 2016 mbp, 16gb ram just loaded 19 tracks of the above scenario (HS Amped Forces 1 bar, 256 buffer, 48khz, great quality, mc off) compared to 73 tracks w m1 max. So it is HUGELY dependent on the type of preset used. So anywhere from 2 - 3.8 x the performance for me so far with Diva. The new m1 max does not turn the fans on even running Diva like this for minutes at a time. The 2016 fans come on almost immediately.

Roughly 3x the performance to the 2016 mbp overall seems like a fair estimate based on many tests I've done.

We should run a test with a variety of presets it seems.


----------



## Vik

khollister said:


> I don't have any quantitative tests from my iMac, but I'm pretty impressed with the CPU efficiency on the new ARM Pigments version too. I could come pretty close to killing a core playing in a track on the iMac - not even close on the M1


If we would make a test project based on one of these librabies that (according to polls here) a lot of users own – like CSS, or maybe SF BBC (which I don't have), we could still make comparisons. It would actually be interesting to see how eg. CSS performance came out compared with BBC or other libraries as well.


----------



## node01

Morodiene said:


> Thanks! I will be ordering my M1 Max soon, so whenever that arrives I'll have a comparison with my 2014 i7 MBP 16 GB (which can barely run anything tbh). I'm really excited to upgrade!


Which M1 Max model/specs will you be ordering? What sort of libraries will you be running with it?


----------



## anderslink

Just did a combo of 7 Diva patches and new m1 max runs 2.6 more tracks compared to i7 2016 mbp.
I really think expecting like 4-5 x the performance is totally unrealistic at this point for most things except for stuff where ram was clearly the bottleneck. And even still Kontakt is absolutely not up the the standards of Keyscape in terms of the performance even though you'd think more ram would really help. The translation through rosetta seems to make Kontakt unusable with more than 100 instances because I can't load a project that well.


----------



## khollister

anderslink said:


> The i7 2016 mbp, 16gb ram just loaded 19 tracks of the above scenario (HS Amped Forces 1 bar, 256 buffer, 48khz, great quality, mc off) compared to 73 tracks w m1 max. So it is HUGELY dependent on the type of preset used. So anywhere from 2 - 3.8 x the performance for me so far with Diva. The new m1 max does not turn the fans on even running Diva like this for minutes at a time. The 2016 fans come on almost immediately.
> 
> Roughly 3x the performance to the 2016 mbp overall seems like a fair estimate based on many tests I've done.
> 
> We should run a test with a variety of presets it seems.


To be honest, unlike Kontakt, Synchron Player, OPUS or Spitfire Player, it's not like I'm going to be using more than a few Diva tracks if that. 70+ tracks of Diva is impressive, but it doesn't have any real world significance to me. 

It's like me saying I can do 250 Omni tracks


----------



## khollister

anderslink said:


> Just did a combo of 7 Diva patches and new m1 max runs 2.6 more tracks compared to i7 2016 mbp.
> I really think expecting like 4-5 x the performance is totally unrealistic at this point for most things except for stuff where ram was clearly the bottleneck. And even still Kontakt is absolutely not up the the standards of Keyscape in terms of the performance even though you'd think more ram would really help. The translation through rosetta seems to make Kontakt unusable with more than 100 instances because I can't load a project that well.


I think I'm beginning to understand why NI still hasn't delivered an ARM version of Kontakt. I bet there is some seriously old code in there with a bunch of tweaks over the years that doesn't translate for shit.


----------



## tsk

anderslink said:


> Just did a combo of 7 Diva patches and new m1 max runs 2.6 more tracks compared to i7 2016 mbp.
> I really think expecting like 4-5 x the performance is totally unrealistic at this point for most things except for stuff where ram was clearly the bottleneck. And even still Kontakt is absolutely not up the the standards of Keyscape in terms of the performance even though you'd think more ram would really help. The translation through rosetta seems to make Kontakt unusable with more than 100 instances because I can't load a project that well.





khollister said:


> So I have been testing various scenarios out all morning, including the Kontakt (Albions) project @jcrosby sent me. So far some puzzling/frustrating results as well as some surprising (as in good) ones.
> 
> This is going to require a lot more explanation but the results so far...
> 
> @jcrosby said he got 276 tracks on his last gen i9 MBP. As it turns out, there are a few dozen silent tracks because the MIDI is in the wrong octave to trigger the specific patch used, but the best I could do was 285 and I'm having trouble repeating that. The puzzling thing is how Logic is reacting. When I get an overload message and I stop playback, all of the logic threads stay at 100% even though the actual cores in Activity Monitor are at an idle state. Even when I got to 285, the actual cores were not heavily loaded.
> 
> I then decided to try Omnisphere (native ARM). I picked a string-like patch kind of at random (Agape Warmth, which has a long release leading to voice buildup), played in the monophonic MIDI line used for the Albion test and got to about 250 tracks. This time, the logic threads were at 100% and the actual cores in the OS were at 90-95% (no fan noise BTW). I no longer have my iMac Pro, so I don't have an Intel comparison for this or anything else I tried today. Interesting that this used about 40GB of RAM, same as the Kontakt Albion project.
> 
> I then tried BBCSO, ARO and Originals Epic Strings. Same MIDI pattern. I managed about 340 tracks in Originals before audible drop-outs (no overload message and threads in LPX were not maxed out yet).Both the beta native BBCSO and native ARO behaved very oddly. The indicated CPU load both in LPX and MacOS was low, but I got dropouts at track counts of only 80-100 even though the indicated load in LPX was less than 50%. I need to reach out to Spitfire on this as something was very fishy with their player.
> 
> Then I tried what I personally care about the most because it is what I use the most lately - VSL Synchron Player (still via Rosetta). I used the same monophonic MIDI with all 5 string parts playing legato. I used the default room mix preset (3 mic channels) with the internal reverb off. I got 200 tracks with LPX behaving pretty well. I could go right to indicated 100% with no dropouts and the cores in Activity Monitor were pretty proportional - although not loaded as much as with Omni. The really good news - only 13GB of RAM with the default preload settings. I have observed some CPU spiking initially with Synchron Player under Rosetta compared to my iMac, so I was expecting a lot worse results here. I expect improvement once VSL goes native.
> 
> Clearly, NI has some problems on their hands with Kontakt and Rosetta at least. It is interesting when I use Kontakt instruments with a lot of scripting, effects & modulation and poly voices (more CPU per instance, fewer instances) the M1 Max exceeded the performance of the Intel machine by a good margin. Clearly with large numbers of simple instances, Kontakt under Rosetta falls apart.
> 
> One thing I might try is to redo a subset of Crosby;s project with Kontakt multis to reduce the instance count.
> 
> Just getting started ...



So Rosetta on an M1 chip isn't so magical after all, for Kontakt at least.

I just felt like I knew this would be the case. I didn't see how Rosetta 2 could perfectly translate the code over without Native Instruments needing to redo it specially for M1.

I'm really not at all convinced by the usefulness of M1 at this current time. The advice I got before was to wait and see how things go, if possible, and I wish I could but my system is coming to the end of its life. So now I'm really not sure what to do. With all these plugins I have through Kontakt and other AUs, it seems like I'm going to end up running into problems. I mean if I'm going to spend $4k on a new system it would be nice if I knew it was going to work with everything that currently works, just faster! Is that so much to ask?!


----------



## Pier

khollister said:


> 71 tracks, 48K, Quality=Divine, MC=off


Thanks! That's quite a beast!


----------



## Nachivnik

tsk said:


> So Rosetta on an M1 chip isn't so magical after all, for Kontakt at least.
> 
> I just felt like I knew this would be the case. I didn't see how Rosetta 2 could perfectly translate the code over without Native Instruments needing to redo it specially for M1.
> 
> I'm really not at all convinced by the usefulness of M1 at this current time. The advice I got before was to wait and see how things go, if possible, and I wish I could but my system is coming to the end of its life. So now I'm really not sure what to do. With all these plugins I have through Kontakt and other AUs, it seems like I'm going to end up running into problems. I mean if I'm going to spend $4k on a new system it would be nice if I knew it was going to work with everything that currently works, just faster! Is that so much to ask?!


You can pick up a used 2019 16” Intel MacBook Pro for much less than a new M1Pro/Max. I am tempted, but the fan noise and heat concern me. It might, however, be a way to get through 2 or 3 more years.


----------



## Morodiene

node01 said:


> Which M1 Max model/specs will you be ordering? What sort of libraries will you be running with it?


I'm looking at 32GB 1TB. I do mainly orch stuff, so I use CSS, FS2, HWB, HWW, and HWP, and for choirs Dominus, Ark, or Symphonic Choirs (for words). Not sure how many tracks that is, but they are pretty dense, so I think it would be a good test.


----------



## samphony

holywilly said:


> Thanks for your help. The reason I'm planning for doing partition is to have everything on one laptop instead of carrying all the external gadgets around. I think I'll just throw everything in the 8TB for mobile purpose.


You don’t partition anymore with apfs you just add „volumes „ via disk utility. You can add and delete volumes anytime.


----------



## tsk

samphony said:


> You don’t partition anymore with apfs you just add „volumes „ via disk utility. You can add and delete volumes anytime.


Does this make the hard drive less likely to fail? I'm just wondering if I should do this in general since I think if my Mac drive fails, there's no other way to boot it AFAIK.


----------



## khollister

So the final track count for the Kontakt Albion ONE/Solstice test project @jcrosby put together is *344 vs 274 for his 2020 16 i9 MBP.* Given his MBP has a Geekbench multicore score roughly 1/2 my M1 Max, this is not too impressive even with Rosetta in the mix. For what it's worth I also tried running Logic in Rosetta mode but that was worse. At 344 tracks, which had 9 threads at 100% in Logic, Activity Monitor showed all 10 cores at about 80-85%. Remember that Logic reserves the last thread for record-armed live tracks.

This test project used identical monophonic MIDI regions for all tracks, but used a different patch/instrument from the 2 Albions for every track from my casual inspection. Some were the warped patches using the eDNA engine, so those were likely more expensive CPU-wise.

My personal opinion is this is a function of how the Kontakt code is translated by Rosetta, not a systemic Apple Silicon or Monterey issue. 

Even while I had my Omnisphere test project looping for several minutes with all the cores at 90+%, the fans never went about 1500 RPM (which is completely inaudible) and none of the CPU or GPU cores went above 70C.


tsk said:


> Does this make the hard drive less likely to fail? I'm just wondering if I should do this in general since I think if my Mac drive fails, there's no other way to boot it AFAIK.


I wouldn't bother


----------



## rnb_2

tsk said:


> Does this make the hard drive less likely to fail? I'm just wondering if I should do this in general since I think if my Mac drive fails, there's no other way to boot it AFAIK.


I don't think it would make any difference regarding failure - if the drive fails, you'll almost certainly lose all of the volumes on it. However, the most recent versions of macOS have made it very easy to reinstall the operating system without effecting your data at all, so if you're just dealing with odd problems, an OS reinstall might clear things up (I was surprised that it worked for me on my 2018 Mac mini a few months ago).

Beyond that, creating extra volumes on a single drive is mostly useful as an organizational scheme - on machines for general use, for instance, creating a 50GB volume for your Photos library is useful, since it will keep the library from growing to fill the available space on the main volume.

Also, if you're on an Intel Mac, creating a bootable backup drive is very straightforward - either Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper! will do the trick, and keep it updated on a schedule. Things don't work the same on an Apple Silicon Mac, unfortunately.


----------



## khollister

Morodiene said:


> I'm looking at 32GB 1TB. I do mainly orch stuff, so I use CSS, FS2, HWB, HWW, and HWP, and for choirs Dominus, Ark, or Symphonic Choirs (for words). Not sure how many tracks that is, but they are pretty dense, so I think it would be a good test.


The good news is EW OPUS is now native ARM (they kinda slipped that in silently), so the EW stuff should be reasonably performant, unlike Kontakt


----------



## jcrosby

khollister said:


> So I have been testing various scenarios out all morning, including the Kontakt (Albions) project @jcrosby sent me. So far some puzzling/frustrating results as well as some surprising (as in good) ones.
> 
> This is going to require a lot more explanation but the results so far...
> 
> @jcrosby said he got 276 tracks on his last gen i9 MBP. As it turns out, there are a few dozen silent tracks because the MIDI is in the wrong octave to trigger the specific patch used, but the best I could do was 285 and I'm having trouble repeating that. The puzzling thing is how Logic is reacting. When I get an overload message and I stop playback, all of the logic threads stay at 100% even though the actual cores in Activity Monitor are at an idle state. Even when I got to 285, the actual cores were not heavily loaded.
> 
> I then decided to try Omnisphere (native ARM). I picked a string-like patch kind of at random (Agape Warmth, which has a long release leading to voice buildup), played in the monophonic MIDI line used for the Albion test and got to about 250 tracks. This time, the logic threads were at 100% and the actual cores in the OS were at 90-95% (no fan noise BTW). I no longer have my iMac Pro, so I don't have an Intel comparison for this or anything else I tried today. Interesting that this used about 40GB of RAM, same as the Kontakt Albion project.
> 
> I then tried BBCSO, ARO and Originals Epic Strings. Same MIDI pattern. I managed about 340 tracks in Originals before audible drop-outs (no overload message and threads in LPX were not maxed out yet).Both the beta native BBCSO and native ARO behaved very oddly. The indicated CPU load both in LPX and MacOS was low, but I got dropouts at track counts of only 80-100 even though the indicated load in LPX was less than 50%. I need to reach out to Spitfire on this as something was very fishy with their player.
> 
> Then I tried what I personally care about the most because it is what I use the most lately - VSL Synchron Player (still via Rosetta). I used the same monophonic MIDI with all 5 string parts playing legato. I used the default room mix preset (3 mic channels) with the internal reverb off. I got 200 tracks with LPX behaving pretty well. I could go right to indicated 100% with no dropouts and the cores in Activity Monitor were pretty proportional - although not loaded as much as with Omni. The really good news - only 13GB of RAM with the default preload settings. I have observed some CPU spiking initially with Synchron Player under Rosetta compared to my iMac, so I was expecting a lot worse results here. I expect improvement once VSL goes native.
> 
> Clearly, NI has some problems on their hands with Kontakt and Rosetta at least. It is interesting when I use Kontakt instruments with a lot of scripting, effects & modulation and poly voices (more CPU per instance, fewer instances) the M1 Max exceeded the performance of the Intel machine by a good margin. Clearly with large numbers of simple instances, Kontakt under Rosetta falls apart.
> 
> One thing I might try is to redo a subset of Crosby;s project with Kontakt multis to reduce the instance count.
> 
> Just getting started ...


Thanks @khollister. As I mentioned to you I'll tweak the project so that I have an accurate count of how many tracks actually play when every track is triggering notes in Kontakt. I'm guessing it'll be closer to 200. 

Once I've had a chance to update the project I can link you to a new one if you want... It'd certainly be interesting to see if mutis vs discrete instances have an impact under Rosetta...


----------



## anderslink

khollister said:


> So the final track count for the Kontakt Albion ONE/Solstice test project @jcrosby put together is *344 vs 274 for his 2020 16 i9 MBP.* Given his MBP has a Geekbench multicore score roughly 1/2 my M1 Max, this is not too impressive even with Rosetta in the mix. For what it's worth I also tried running Logic in Rosetta mode but that was worse. At 344 tracks, which had 9 threads at 100% in Logic, Activity Monitor showed all 10 cores at about 80-85%. Remember that Logic reserves the last thread for record-armed live tracks.
> 
> This test project used identical monophonic MIDI regions for all tracks, but used a different patch/instrument from the 2 Albions for every track from my casual inspection. Some were the warped patches using the eDNA engine, so those were likely more expensive CPU-wise.
> 
> My personal opinion is this is a function of how the Kontakt code is translated by Rosetta, not a systemic Apple Silicon or Monterey issue.
> 
> Even while I had my Omnisphere test project looping for several minutes with all the cores at 90+%, the fans never went about 1500 RPM (which is completely inaudible) and none of the CPU or GPU cores went above 70C.
> 
> I wouldn't bother


I was able to load 367 tracks of Kontakt on the m1 max because I added the tracks slowly, waiting for each new duplicate of 30 or so tracks to load which took forever. So it did work - but I could never load the project again. How are any of you actually loading these projects again?


----------



## khollister

anderslink said:


> I was able to load 367 tracks of Kontakt on the m1 max because I added the tracks slowly, waiting for each new duplicate of 30 or so tracks to load which took forever. So it did work - but I could never load the project again. How are any of you actually loading these projects again?


Personally, I don't consider a project with 200+ Kontakt tracks to be very practical at this point. Hopefully NI will get the lead out and deliver a native version that performs reasonably well. Fortunately, most of my orchestral heavy lifting is currently VSL. While currently running under Rosetta and a little piggy, they are fully committed to a native version as soon as they complete the iLok transition. 

I'm also not template based these days and with articulation management, I just don't need 200-300 tracks anymore. This thing is a real beast on the stuff that is optimized for ARM like the Spectrasonics or Synapse stuff.


----------



## khollister

Some initial rough testing with OPUS and HWO indicates very promising results. Fast loads (160 tracks in 23 sec) and excellent CPU performance. Also plays perfectly with no indicated disk hit with no preload set on all instances. I'll try to build a more realistic project with HWO this week


----------



## kenose

Thanks a TON @jcrosby and @khollister for putting that comparison together, this is all really great data!


----------



## Nate Johnson

You guys are amazing for working that equation. Big thanks for the effort!

Seems like the hardware is good to go, but whereas it’s not impossible to run somewhat normal sessions now (native+rosetta), it’s clear that developers need more time to catch up. Almost there! I’m betting it’ll all be sorted in 2022.


----------



## anderslink

khollister said:


> Some initial rough testing with OPUS and HWO indicates very promising results. Fast loads (160 tracks in 23 sec) and excellent CPU performance. Also plays perfectly with no indicated disk hit with no preload set on all instances. I'll try to build a more realistic project with HWO this week


This is through Rosetta too? 145 Kontakt tracks just took 5 minutes to load here (30 gb loaded into ram). I'm using Kontakt 6 btw.


----------



## khollister

anderslink said:


> This is through Rosetta too? 145 Kontakt tracks just took 5 minutes to load here (30 gb loaded into ram). I'm using Kontakt 6 btw.


OPUS is native - they slipped it in in the last update silently


----------



## Morodiene

khollister said:


> The good news is EW OPUS is now native ARM (they kinda slipped that in silently), so the EW stuff should be reasonably performant, unlike Kontakt


I don't have OPUS though...didn't really want to invest more money in EW :/


----------



## anderslink

khollister said:


> OPUS is native - they slipped it in in the last update silently


So how does the performance of OPUS compare to benchmarks for the m1 max? Does it seem to scale up accordingly for you?


----------



## khollister

anderslink said:


> So how does the performance of OPUS compare to benchmarks for the m1 max? Does it seem to scale up accordingly for you?


Unfortunately, I don’t have a good feel for it on Intel. I was mostly using VSL synchron and BBCSO.


----------



## Vehrka

Hey guys, I’m going to be getting a new laptop for composing on the go but what’s the verdict on how much better the M1 Max is than the normal M1 in the MacBook Air or Pro? Most of my projects are softsynth heavy as opposed to sample heavy. Mostly I’ll be using a mix of Zebra, Diva, Omni, etc. with effects and so one. Would the normal M1 be able to handle that just fine or do should I splurge for the M1 Max (or Pro) if I can?

Thanks!


----------



## anderslink

Vehrka said:


> Hey guys, I’m going to be getting a new laptop for composing on the go but what’s the verdict on how much better the M1 Max is than the normal M1 in the MacBook Air or Pro? Most of my projects are softsynth heavy as opposed to sample heavy. Mostly I’ll be using a mix of Zebra, Diva, Omni, etc. with effects and so one. Would the normal M1 be able to handle that just fine or do should I splurge for the M1 Max (or Pro) if I can?
> 
> Thanks!


Definitely don't need the Max if you're not going to use the ram or graphics card. If you use a lot of instances of synths go for the Pro.


----------



## rnb_2

anderslink said:


> Definitely don't need the Max if you're not going to use the ram or graphics card. If you use a lot of instances of synths go for the Pro.


A lot of soft synths are already native, so an M1 Air might be all you need from a performance standpoint. As @anderslink said, it will depend on how many instances you run, as each core is basically the same between M1 and Pro/Max, you just get 2-4 more of them (though the reduction of efficiency cores from 4 to 2 does actually have an impact). If you're okay with 16GB of RAM now, you might be a good candidate for a base (8-core CPU/14-core GPU) M1 Pro if you want to get the better screen, more ports, and a bit of extra performance over the M1 without spending too much more (there are deals on this config right now in some markets). This would get you ~20-25% better performance overall vs the M1.


----------



## khollister

rnb_2 said:


> A lot of soft synths are already native, so an M1 Air might be all you need from a performance standpoint. As @anderslink said, it will depend on how many instances you run, as each core is basically the same between M1 and Pro/Max, you just get 2-4 more of them (though the reduction of efficiency cores from 4 to 2 does actually have an impact). If you're okay with 16GB of RAM now, you might be a good candidate for a base (8-core CPU/14-core GPU) M1 Pro if you want to get the better screen, more ports, and a bit of extra performance over the M1 without spending too much more (there are deals on this config right now in some markets). This would get you ~20-25% better performance overall vs the M1.


In fact I'm having trouble thinking of too many synths that _*aren't*_ native already - Arturia, Spectrasonics, Synapse, U-he, Cherry Audio, TAL, Roland Cloud (although the ACB Legendary ones are broken in Monterey at the moment), Korg is slowly getting there. NI is obviously not.


----------



## Nachivnik

khollister said:


> In fact I'm having trouble thinking of too many synths that _*aren't*_ native already - Arturia, Spectrasonics, Synapse, U-he, Cherry Audio, TAL, Roland Cloud (although the ACB Legendary ones are broken in Monterey at the moment), Korg is slowly getting there. NI is obviously not.


My uncomfortable question: What in Native Instruments' history or current situation with big new undisclosed plans after their merger, leads people to think they will be making Apple Silicon-native updates to their synths anytime soon? And when/if they do, that there will be performance improvements?


----------



## khollister

Nachivnik said:


> My uncomfortable question: What in Native Instruments' history or current situation with big new undisclosed plans after their merger, leads people to think they will be making Apple Silicon-native updates to their synths anytime soon? And when/if they do, that there will be performance improvements?


They have stated previously they will do native versions of everything current. I think it is almost certain they will not attempt to optimize anything beyond achieving comparable performance to the Intel stuff. I never really got along with the NI synths, but they need to fix the excruciatingly bad load times with Kontakt Rosetta among other things. I'm certain you are not going to ever see the kind of amazing ARM performance improvements that Spectrasonics delivered, for example.


----------



## anderslink

Is there another sample player besides Keyscape that has improve so dramatically from intel to apple silicon?

With Keyscape I'm getting more than 5x the track count with the new m1 max compared to my old Intel i7 4 core w/ 16gb ram. I made a session that intentionally uses more CPU than ram but it still loaded more than 5x the tracks. I'm using the same exact plugin verison. 3.5x is pretty much the maximum improvement from anything else I have used.

Spitfire Originals player (apple silicon native for cinematic soft piano) loads about 3x the tracks and does so reliably which is nice.

I don't have a better comparison right now because nearly everything I own runs in Kontakt which isn't supported for Monterey or Apple Silicon, loads about 2.5x the tracks very slowly, and is totally unstable with high track counts.

Maybe the intel version of Keyscape was less performant? Or maybe they discovered some secrets with optimization?


----------



## Nate Johnson

The conversation about synths has got me thinking - Is 16gb of ram ‘enough’ to handle everything else but sample libraries in audio production these days? Audio mangling stuff and heavy mixing plugins like Izotope, etc? Seems like that part of the universe is all about CPU, like the synths are?


----------



## nightjar

khollister said:


> They have stated previously they will do native versions of everything current. I think it is almost certain they will not attempt to optimize anything beyond achieving comparable performance to the Intel stuff.


I am more optimistic about what will emerge from NI and native ARM. I think their merging with iZotope has delayed both companies as they are wanting to unify their development teams and resources. Some short term pain for long term gain.

https://www.native-instruments.com/...-izotope-are-unifying-their-leadership-teams/

Quote from the Nov 1 press release: 
_Together, Native Instruments and iZotope have over 45 years of experience building products that inspire and enable creators, and this next step is a force-multiplier to the potential of future offerings. As they move further towards their shared vision of a seamless creative experience, Native Instruments and iZotope will focus on bringing innovation faster to the market by leveraging the talent of their combined research and development teams._


----------



## rsg22

I just read through this thread (whew) - great insights, learned a lot - thanks to everyone who performed testing.

*TL;DR: How critical is the number of GPU (not CPU) cores for audio work?*

Longer version of the question follows...


I'm planning on upgrading to an M1 Pro (not Max) 32GB MBP from a 2015 MBP (i7 16GB). Budget dictates I go with one of the 14" configurations, which is fine as I usually have an external monitor attached. Running Logic, hybrid projects with Spitfire (new player), synths, very light Kontakt, etc.

Big question on the 14" Pro CPU/GPU configs available:

8-core CPU/14-core GPU
10-core CPU/14-core GPU
10-core CPU/16-core GPU
...is the number of GPU cores important? From reading through this thread and scanning Geekbench scores, the number of CPU cores is critical, but I can find little-to-no info about the significance of GPU cores for audio work.


----------



## rnb_2

For audio work, you are unlikely to notice any difference between 14 and 16-core GPUs, but I would probably not generally recommend the 8-core CPU model, as the performance gains versus an M1 will not be that dramatic - probably 20-25% - due to only gaining two performance cores while losing two efficiency cores (which actually do more work than you think).

I'd only recommend the 8-core CPU model to people who value the much better display, greater variety of ports, and/or larger storage options more than outright CPU power. I'd also see the 8-core model as an option for composers who work mostly with soft synths or modeled instruments and can work within the base 14-inch/16GB/512GB model with no additions, as that config is seeing decent discounts at retail already (again, though, they'd have to see benefit in the screen and/or ports vs an M1 for the price difference).

With the 10-core CPU models, the cost difference between the 14-core GPU and 16-core GPU is only $100. There aren't any other options that only add $100, so there isn't anything to recommend spending that on instead, 1-for-1. However, if you're choosing between those two GPU cores and upgrading from 512GB to 1TB of storage, I'd go with storage for $100 more.


----------



## Trensharo

Do USB 3.x SSDs still run at reduced speeds on these [updates] SoCs?


----------



## rsg22

rnb_2 said:


> For audio work, you are unlikely to notice any difference between 14 and 16-core GPUs, but I would probably not generally recommend the 8-core CPU model, as the performance gains versus an M1 will not be that dramatic - probably 20-25% - due to only gaining two performance cores while losing two efficiency cores (which actually do more work than you think).


Agreed. I listed the 8-core CPU for completeness but wasn't considering it - appreciate your insights on GPU cores.


----------



## PhilA

I see no real reason except RAM for going max. But 10 core cpu absolutely. 
I’m a rank amateur but my 32gb /10 core/2tb is like (Kontakt aside) the proverbial poop off a stick fast. I also can from a 2017 i7 16gb ram. This difference is wonderful.


----------



## khollister

Trensharo said:


> Do USB 3.x SSDs still run at reduced speeds on these [updates] SoCs?


Unfortunately, yes. The single negative thing I have to say about these machines.


----------



## PhilA

khollister said:


> Unfortunately, yes. The single negative thing I have to say about these machines.


Agreed, thankfully TB externals are really really quick.


----------



## danwool

PhilA said:


> Agreed, thankfully TB externals are really really quick.


So, to be clear(er to me), SSDs on Tb busses perform better than those on USB 3.x busses? USB 3.1 throughput is 10Gb, and NVME SSDs can read-write at 2Gb (sata SSDs at 600mb). Do both SSD types benefit from being on Tb busses - even thought their specs are well below USB 3.1 (and Tb3/4) throughput specs?


----------



## rnb_2

danwool said:


> So, to be clear(er to me), SSDs on Tb busses perform better than those on USB 3.x busses? USB 3.1 throughput is 10Gb, and NVME SSDs can read-write at 2Gb (sata SSDs at 600mb). Do both SSD types benefit from being on Tb busses - even thought their specs are well below USB 3.1 (and Tb3/4) throughput specs?


That would depend on the enclosure and the exact spec involved, but I think what is being discussed here is that USB-C drives plugged into the Thunderbolt ports on Apple Silicon Macs aren't as fast as they are when plugged into USB-C ports on other computers (I haven't investigated this myself, so please correct me if I have it wrong).

To give an example that may illustrate this, I just got a 1TB Intel 670p NVMe drive today. I tested it in a USB-C 3.2 Gen 2 enclosure, and got pretty mediocre speeds - under 800MB/s. The same drive, now installed in an OWC Thunderbolt enclosure, gave about 1.2GB/s write and 1.5GB/s read. Unfortunately, I don't have a PC around to test what the drive speed would have been with the USB-C enclosure on a USB-C 3.2 Gen 2 port, but it did seem to underperform on my M1 Mac mini in that enclosure.

Also, be careful with your units, as your numbers for USB vs Thunderbolt are mixing Gb and GB. USB 3.2 Gen 1 supports up to 5Gb/s (same as USB 3.1), for roughly 600MB/s speed with something like a SATA SSD. USB 3.2 Gen 2 supports up to 10Gb/s, for roughly 1.2GB/s with a NVMe drive or a SATA RAID. Thunderbolt 3 or 4 is 40Gb/s, or 5GB/s theoretical speed (only 2.8GB/s after subtracting overhead and reserved bandwidth for video, though). NVMe drives in the best USB 3.2 Gen 2 enclosure would still be slower than Thunderbolt enclosures that don't support full Thunderbolt speed (most don't), since the maximum bandwidth (~1.2GB/s) is less than half of the 2.8GB/s data bandwidth of Thunderbolt.

Regardless, neither USB or Thunderbolt support anywhere near the full speed of the current crop of NVMe drives - when installed on a motherboard with the proper support, the Intel drive I got today should support read speeds up to 3.5GB/s, or over 4x what I got via USB, and over twice what I got via Thunderbolt.


----------



## khollister

a USB 3.2 G2 NVME drive that gets 1000 MBs on an intel Mac only comes in about 600-700 MBs on an M1. USB 3.2 G1 SATA drives are similarly slower on M1's. Thunderbolt devices run at expected speeds on M1's. However, as has been discussed here before, storage devices will top out at about 2800MBs on TB3/4 due to overhead reserved for display channels. And not all TB3/4 enclosures can deliver that - there are many chipsets that only deliver about 1500 MBs max. This is not a M1 issue but a consequence of the TB implementation in the TB enclosure.

The USB speed issue IS an M1 problem.


----------



## khollister

An update on the HWO OPUS testing. Played 300 tracks of HWB and HWS, mostly legato Slur MAX patches, monophonic MIDI lines, no overload (might be able to add another 20 tracks or so but ran out of patience). The best news - time to launch Logic and open project, 41s. Time to save, 45s.

Threads in Logic were indicating 100%, no spiking, cores in Activity Monitor were about 90%, no fan noise. 

This is Logic in ARM mode and OPUS is also ARM binary.

Purged all instances and used about 57GB of RAM. Drive preference in OPUS was set to SSD/PCIe, preload on, voice threading set to Medium (default). no indicated disk activity in Logic at all. 48K project.

We have come a long ways since the early PLAY days where you needed a PC slave to even run HWS/HWB it sucked so bad on a Mac.


----------



## anderslink

khollister said:


> An update on the HWO OPUS testing. Played 300 tracks of HWB and HWS, mostly legato Slur MAX patches, monophonic MIDI lines, no overload (might be able to add another 20 tracks or so but ran out of patience). The best news - time to launch Logic and open project, 41s. Time to save, 45s.
> 
> Threads in Logic were indicating 100%, no spiking, cores in Activity Monitor were about 90%, no fan noise.
> 
> This is Logic in ARM mode and OPUS is also ARM binary.
> 
> Purged all instances and used about 57GB of RAM. Drive preference in OPUS was set to SSD/PCIe, preload on, voice threading set to Medium (default). no indicated disk activity in Logic at all. 48K project.
> 
> We have come a long ways since the early PLAY days where you needed a PC slave to even run HWS/HWB it sucked so bad on a Mac.


I don't think we need any more evidence that Kontakt needs to catch up in terms of performance. Legato patches with 57GB of ram? 300 instances??? Based on using Kontakt with Rosetta a 200+ instance project takes about 30 minutes to load properly so the samples play correctly, and even still it is very unstable. I'm sure everyone else including myself is hoping that NI can figure it out. I'm a massive fan of Kontakt, and like a lot of people here I have invested a lot of time and money into it.


----------



## Vehrka

anderslink said:


> Definitely don't need the Max if you're not going to use the ram or graphics card. If you use a lot of instances of synths go for the Pro.


Hey thank you so much for replying! Quick question…for synths like Diva or Omnisphere, do you think there’d be a noticeable difference between the 16, 32, & 64 GB RAM options? I know Omnisphere does have some beefy patches in it.

Even though right now I don’t use too many samples, I do think I will be in the future (and I do use some Orchestral Tools stuff already). In terms of future proofing just wondering if upgrading from the Pro to the Max & consequently upgrading from 16 to 32 (or 64) gifs of RAM will give me the most bang for my buck.

Thanks again for your input btw


----------



## rnb_2

Vehrka said:


> Hey thank you so much for replying! Quick question…for synths like Diva or Omnisphere, do you think there’d be a noticeable difference between the 16, 32, & 64 GB RAM options? I know Omnisphere does have some beefy patches in it.
> 
> Even though right now I don’t use too many samples, I do think I will be in the future (and I do use some Orchestral Tools stuff already). In terms of future proofing just wondering if upgrading from the Pro to the Max & consequently upgrading from 16 to 32 (or 64) gifs of RAM will give me the most bang for my buck.
> 
> Thanks again for your input btw


My gut feeling is that even a beefy patch used by a synth is nothing compared to an orchestral template, but I don't have Omnisphere, so I can't speak conclusively on that.

If you want to future proof yourself, an M1 Pro with 32GB is a reasonable option. Upgrading to the Max in order to go to 64GB is something you should probably know you need to do before doing it (unless the money involved doesn't impact you meaningfully).


----------



## Vik

Thanks for reporting, Khollister. 57 gb of RAM for 300 instances = 0.19 gb per track. Many single instruments use 2-3 gb or more… were this unique tracks, with a normal amount of notes, automation, and a combination of long/short and fast/slow notes? Did you check out the max number if tracks you could get with normal, real-life like, non-purged tracks?

Did you try to open the same project on an Intel Mac and see how many tracks you could get? Was this 48khz/24 bit? Buffer setting?

With many users struggling to be able to play more than 10 tracks on an m1 Mac, 300+ tracks almost sounds too good to be true, and nobidy seem to have claimed that the M1 max performance is 30 times (300/10) higher than on an m1, which is why I’m curious about the details!


----------



## Vik

rnb_2 said:


> f you want to future proof yourself, an M1 Pro with 32GB is a reasonable option.


Theres a major difference between 32gb and 64gb on an intel Mac, even for moderate sample based projects, so i guess you talk about synth- and not sample-based projects here?


----------



## PhilA

Vehrka said:


> Hey thank you so much for replying! Quick question…for synths like Diva or Omnisphere, do you think there’d be a noticeable difference between the 16, 32, & 64 GB RAM options? I know Omnisphere does have some beefy patches in it.
> 
> Even though right now I don’t use too many samples, I do think I will be in the future (and I do use some Orchestral Tools stuff already). In terms of future proofing just wondering if upgrading from the Pro to the Max & consequently upgrading from 16 to 32 (or 64) gifs of RAM will give me the most bang for my buck.
> 
> Thanks again for your input btw


As mentioned above so eloquently 👍🏻 Even soft synths with BIG sample sets like Omnisphere are nowhere near as ram hungry as Orchestral sample sets, that said I would not buy a 16gb ram M1 MacBook Pro, given it’s not end user upgradable don’t base your purchase on your usage today but your future usage tomorrow. The 32gb isn’t a huge price hike and it means the laptop is way more likely to have a longer life before you feel the need the upgrade again.


----------



## HeliaVox

Just got my 16" MacBookPro with the M1 Max chip. Still in the installing/setting up stage. But boy, the hardware is top notch. The keyboard is really nice. The screen is beautiful, and I'm impressed with the speakers. They're loud! And I was surprised by the bass response. I was listening to a harp piece, and the low strings really sang! I'm looking forward to seeing what this laptop is capable of!


----------



## PhilA

Since you mention the speakers. The directional response while watching something with an Atmos sound track is really quite good too.


----------



## khollister

Vik said:


> Thanks for reporting, Khollister. 57 gb of RAM for 300 instances = 0.19 gb per track. Many single instruments use 2-3 gb or more… were this unique tracks, with a normal amount of notes, automation, and a combination of long/short and fast/slow notes? Did you check out the max number if tracks you could get with normal, real-life like, non-purged tracks?
> 
> Did you try to open the same project on an Intel Mac and see how many tracks you could get? Was this 48khz/24 bit? Buffer setting?
> 
> With many users struggling to be able to play more than 10 tracks on an m1 Mac, 300+ tracks almost sounds too good to be true, and nobidy seem to have claimed that the M1 max performance is 30 times (300/10) higher than on an m1, which is why I’m curious about the details!


Unpurged, Activity Monitor was reporting something like 115GB of memory. In spite of significant swapping, it still played though. And, no, I'm not spending the time to construct your fantasy test project. OPUS does not share samples between tracks (watching the RAM footprint as you add tracks makes that clear). I had about 10 different patches with a couple different articulations (legato slur MAX and legato bow change MAX in the case of strings) and 3 different MIDI files. There were 300 simultaneous voices. Oh and I left the default convo reverb on each track in OPUS as well rather than running everything through a send with a single verb instance.

I remain unconvinced that however unrealistic this scenario is, it doesn't represent an edge condition use case.

48K, 128 buffer (although I selected an empty audio track for playback so it shouldn't matter), Process buffer Large, 64 bit internal precision.

I'm not spending any more time on testing unless someone else can provide a Logic project with libraries I own. I am convinced this machine is entirely adequate to run anything I would personally run - the only thing of significant concern is the load/save times of large Kontakt projects and general stability of 200+ tracks of Kontakt. Since most of my orchestral use now is VSL Synchron or OPUS, I'm not sweating that either.


----------



## chromatic

khollister said:


> All 24 tracks were playing simultaneously with identical chords, so we are talking something like 120+ Diva voices plus another 50-60 voices on Repro. And the patches selected have long release tails, so the voice buildup is not insignificant.
> 
> I realize the absolute track count doesn't sound impressive, but this is a completely artificial project using these synths in a way you would never do in real life.


Hello 
I was reading your test on the M1 Max about Diva and Repro…
”All 24 tracks were playing simultaneously with identical chords, so we are talking something like 120+ Diva voices plus another 50-60 voices on Repro. And the patches selected have long release tails, so the voice buildup is not insignificant.”

Just to be sure you mean those are playing in the same project at the same time 120 diva voices + 50(60) repro voices so a total of around 170 voices at the same time ?! 
I think its that but just to be sure…

Thank You!


----------



## khollister

chromatic said:


> Hello
> I was reading your test on the M1 Max about Diva and Repro…
> ”All 24 tracks were playing simultaneously with identical chords, so we are talking something like 120+ Diva voices plus another 50-60 voices on Repro. And the patches selected have long release tails, so the voice buildup is not insignificant.”
> 
> Just to be sure you mean those are playing in the same project at the same time 120 diva voices + 50(60) repro voices so a total of around 170 voices at the same time ?!
> I think its that but just to be sure…
> 
> Thank You!


yes - each track had a chord of 5-6 voices (working from memory here) and the patches I used had long release times, so the voice count doubled on chord changes.


----------



## chromatic

khollister said:


> yes - each track had a chord of 5-6 voices (working from memory here) and the patches I used had long release times, so the voice count doubled on chord changes.


Thats Amazing! Thank you 
I was gonna built a PC for my studio but, i now wonder if it would be that much powerful to make it worth using windows…
By Geekbench Numbers (12500 vs 17000) it would seem Yes a PC would still be worth it but it seems by Optimisation and maybe the way the M1 system work its not that far for real world results…
Although i dont know how many voice of Diva a 16core amd can get but… it sounds like 170 voices is enough…


----------



## khollister

chromatic said:


> Thats Amazing! Thank you
> I was gonna built a PC for my studio but, i now wonder if it would be that much powerful to make it worth using windows…
> By Geekbench Numbers (12500 vs 17000) it would seem Yes a PC would still be worth it but it seems by Optimisation and maybe the way the M1 system work its not that far for real world results…
> Although i dont know how many voice of Diva a 16core amd can get but… it sounds like 170 voices is enough…


Far be it from me to recommend Windows, but there is little doubt that something like a DIY 5950X desktop PC will be more powerful and cheaper than a Mac laptop. Part of that is DIY vs Apple, part is PC vs Apple and part is desktop vs laptop.

If you really need a desktop, I would wait a few months and see what happens with the "big" iMac, Mac mini "Max" or Mac Pro "Lite". I bought the laptop because A) I wanted a single studio/mobile machine, B) I am a Logic user and really don't like Windows and C) I had the money.

On the other hand, if you are not a die-hard Logic and/or MacOS user, the PC makes a lot of sense especially if cost is a big factor.


----------



## rnb_2

Vik said:


> Theres a major difference between 32gb and 64gb on an intel Mac, even for moderate sample based projects, so i guess you talk about synth- and not sample-based projects here?


Yes - I was specifically replying to someone who seemed to be using mostly synths, with some orchestral, and was debating between an M1 and a Pro/Max. It's easy to talk ourselves into spending more via "what if I end up doing X down the line?", but I think a Pro/32GB config is a nice mid-point, giving room to grow without talking yourself into buying a more expensive machine "just in case".


----------



## khollister

rnb_2 said:


> Yes - I was specifically replying to someone who seemed to be using mostly synths, with some orchestral, and was debating between an M1 and a Pro/Max. It's easy to talk ourselves into spending more via "what if I end up doing X down the line?", but I think a Pro/32GB config is a nice mid-point, giving room to grow without talking yourself into buying a more expensive machine "just in case".


Agreed. I think 32 is workable depending on your workflow and instrument palette. If you are heavily sample based and allergic to bouncing/freezing, 64GB is not really optional IMHO


----------



## Vehrka

rnb_2 said:


> Yes - I was specifically replying to someone who seemed to be using mostly synths, with some orchestral, and was debating between an M1 and a Pro/Max. It's easy to talk ourselves into spending more via "what if I end up doing X down the line?", but I think a Pro/32GB config is a nice mid-point, giving room to grow without talking yourself into buying a more expensive machine "just in case".


Yeah that was me and thank you! Good advice indeed. I think I'm going to go for the 16" base M1 Max with 32 gigs as the upgrade from the M1 Pro to M1 Max is only $200 compared to the $400 upgrade for 64 gigs of RAM. Again, right now I only have a couple of Orchestral Tools libraries but I plan on maybe buying LASS 3 as well as maybe a couple of Spitfire libraries in the next year or so but I can't see that needing 64 GBs of RAM. Thank you for the advice


----------



## Vik

Don't forget that several companies recommend 32 gb just for using _one_ of their libraries.

OT Berlin Strings:

"Recommended Specs
To host for example a full Berlin Strings template with all articulations we recommend 32 GB RAM. If you intend to use a lot of microphone positions and want to use a lot of collections, 64 GB is perfect."

VSL Synchron Strings 1:

"Recommended:

Windows 10 (latest update, 64-bit), Intel Core i7/i9/Xeon
macOS 10.12.6 (or higher), Intel Core i7/i9/Xeon
32 GB RAM
AU/VST/AAX Native compatible host
88 key master keyboard"


----------



## rnb_2

Vik said:


> Don't forget that several companies recommend 32 gb just for using _one_ of their libraries.
> 
> OT Berlin Strings:
> 
> "Recommended Specs
> To host for example a full Berlin Strings template with all articulations we recommend 32 GB RAM. If you intend to use a lot of microphone positions and want to use a lot of collections, 64 GB is perfect."
> 
> VSL Synchron Strings 1:
> 
> "Recommended:
> 
> Windows 10 (latest update, 64-bit), Intel Core i7/i9/Xeon
> macOS 10.12.6 (or higher), Intel Core i7/i9/Xeon
> 32 GB RAM
> AU/VST/AAX Native compatible host
> 88 key master keyboard"


As I said, going with an M1 Max and 64GB is something you should probably know you need to do - users of those libraries would know what they need. It's the users that have a mix of VIs and aren't running a huge template that have decisions to make, based on what they need for the foreseeable future. I don't think that everyone should just get a 64GB M1 Max "just in case".


----------



## rnb_2

Vehrka said:


> Yeah that was me and thank you! Good advice indeed. I think I'm going to go for the 16" base M1 Max with 32 gigs as the upgrade from the M1 Pro to M1 Max is only $200 compared to the $400 upgrade for 64 gigs of RAM. Again, right now I only have a couple of Orchestral Tools libraries but I plan on maybe buying LASS 3 as well as maybe a couple of Spitfire libraries in the next year or so but I can't see that needing 64 GBs of RAM. Thank you for the advice


Glad I could help, and I understand your thinking, but understand that the $200 you're spending to get the Max isn't going to make the machine any better for your purposes if you don't also upgrade the RAM to 64GB. The extra GPU cores aren't going to help with music software at all - the GPU in the Pro is likely overkill for composers - and the extra memory bandwidth will never get used, since it takes a task that maxes out the 32-core GPU to get close to saturating it.

If you were looking at spending that $200 to open up the 64GB option for you, that's something that could make a difference down the line, but it's not going to do anything for you unless you see yourself doing some high-end video work that will take advantage of the extra video hardware on the Max.

In fairness, none of the upgrade steps in the M1 Pro/Max line (other than storage) is terribly expensive, so it's not a big leap in cost to just go for the top of the line. You can certainly treat it as "insurance" of a sort that the machine will handle whatever you throw at it in the future. That said, I wouldn't spend the $200 on the Max without upgrading the RAM unless you see high-end video work in your future.


----------



## Ivan M.

rnb_2 said:


> what if I end up doing X down the line, but I think a Pro/32GB config is a nice mid-point


Yeah, agreed. If extra memory is not needed immediatelly, then that's a very expensive "what if". We'll be buying new one's anyway, there's always something better next year.


----------



## Vik

Ivan M. said:


> We'll be buying new one's anyway, there's always something better next year.


Many of the 'what should I buy'-questions relate to how often one wants to or can afford to sell the Mac and buy a new one. If the plan is to keep it only for a tear or two, the real question is of course what one needs for that period (except that buying a Mac with great video editing specs makes it easier to find someone who wants tp pay for it later).
And – to rnb: regarding ' going with an M1 Max and 64GB is something you should probably know you need to do', what about all those who post that they don't know what they need?  We have all been there and in a way most of us still are...


----------



## mat1

There is a good chance


khollister said:


> Unpurged, Activity Monitor was reporting something like 115GB of memory. In spite of significant swapping, it still played though.


How was the memory pressure at this point? No hiccups at all?


----------



## mat1

Vik said:


> Many of the 'what should I buy'-questions relate to how often one wants to or can afford to sell the Mac and buy a new one. If the plan is to keep it only for a tear or two, the real question is of course what one needs for that period (except that buying a Mac with great video editing specs makes it easier to find someone who wants tp pay for it later).


You’re probably better off spending that ‘what if’ money on Apple stock and upgrading a year or two early.


----------



## gordinho

Max becomes relevant if you want to use 3 external monitors, otherwise the GPU boost is not entirely justifiable. The reality is that if time is not money you can just freeze tracks and memory isn't such a big deal.


----------



## rnb_2

gordinho said:


> Max becomes relevant if you want to use 3 external monitors, otherwise the GPU boost is not entirely justifiable. The reality is that if time is not money you can just freeze tracks and memory isn't such a big deal.


Good point on the three external displays - I had forgotten that point of difference between the Pro and Max.


----------



## ridgero

PhilA said:


> I see no real reason except RAM for going max. But 10 core cpu absolutely.
> I’m a rank amateur but my 32gb /10 core/2tb is like (Kontakt aside) the proverbial poop off a stick fast. I also can from a 2017 i7 16gb ram. This difference is wonderful.



- Double memory bandwidth 
- Display support for 4 external displays


----------



## Nachivnik

I found a Native Instruments forum thread where they state they are committed to native Apple Silicon support, but it is months rather than weeks away (posted mid-November), whereas general Monterey support is closer (I am assuming that may include support under Rosetta 2 as well as Intel-based systems?). It is important to note that Monterey is currently an unsupported OS for Kontakt, so Kontakt's performance on a 2021 MacBook Pro with M1Pro/Max chip (only available with Monterey) should take that into account.

Maybe there will be native Apple Silicon support for Native Instruments about the time new Apple Silicon desktops arrive, perhaps in the Spring. Until then, there will be some frustration.









Apple's macOS 12 Monterey Compatibility


Also, has anyone uses Kontakt in ProTools on an M1 chip computer with OS 11 on it?




www.native-instruments.com


----------



## PhilA

ridgero said:


> - Double memory bandwidth
> - Display support for 4 external displays


Extra displays sure if that’s a requirement.
Memory bandwidth, if you’re a video editor and need it to power the extra GPU cores sure,otherwise for music you’re not going to saturate what the Pro has anyway.


----------



## khollister

Nachivnik said:


> I found a Native Instruments forum thread where they state they are committed to native Apple Silicon support, but it is months rather than weeks away (posted mid-November), whereas general Monterey support is closer (I am assuming that may include support under Rosetta 2 as well as Intel-based systems?). It is important to note that Monterey is currently an unsupported OS for Kontakt, so Kontakt's performance on a 2021 MacBook Pro with M1Pro/Max chip (only available with Monterey) should take that into account.
> 
> Maybe there will be native Apple Silicon support for Native Instruments about the time new Apple Silicon desktops arrive, perhaps in the Spring. Until then, there will be some frustration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apple's macOS 12 Monterey Compatibility
> 
> 
> Also, has anyone uses Kontakt in ProTools on an M1 chip computer with OS 11 on it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.native-instruments.com


I would not assume Monterey support meaning anything other than they have tested it and will provide their usual level of crappy support if you report a problem on Monterey. I'm not sure Kontakt works any better under Rosetta on Big Sur on an original M1, so don't get your hopes up for some significant improvement there.

I'm just glad my dependancy on Kontakt/NI is not tied to my main orchestral libraries at this point (EW and VSL). Kontakt under Rosetta works well enough for a handful of instances here and there, but it's scalability is hosed at the moment.

And while I'm on a rant, Spitfire needs to get their player straightened out before I even consider spending any money on a future Abbey Road modular orchestra. Between performance issues with BBCSO/ARO and general lack of features, it is pretty pitiful compared to other recent players like VSL Synchron and EW OPUS.


----------



## mat1

mat1 said:


> There is a good chance
> 
> How was the memory pressure at this point? No hiccups at all?


Just bumping this


----------



## khollister

mat1 said:


> Just bumping this


I don't really remember. And since I saved the project with everything purged, there is no easy way to unpurge 300 instances - there is a "purge all instances" command but not the reverse and I'm sure as hell not doing it manually for 300 tracks.


----------



## Vik

I agree, and that's why I believe that in real life situations, if one needs to free up some RAM, it's often better to freeze tracks instead. For those who possibly aren't aware of this: At least with Kontakt, a track that's frozen of switched off with the option key, the samples are removed from RAM; and loaded back in when in-freezing or activating the track again. Does this work with Sine as well?


----------



## samphony

This mac rocks. Oh and by the way attaching all displays to the thunderbolt dock with only ONE cable leading back to the macbook for all data connections is a dream come true!


----------



## rnb_2

Nachivnik said:


> I found a Native Instruments forum thread where they state they are committed to native Apple Silicon support, but it is months rather than weeks away (posted mid-November), whereas general Monterey support is closer (I am assuming that may include support under Rosetta 2 as well as Intel-based systems?). It is important to note that Monterey is currently an unsupported OS for Kontakt, so Kontakt's performance on a 2021 MacBook Pro with M1Pro/Max chip (only available with Monterey) should take that into account.
> 
> Maybe there will be native Apple Silicon support for Native Instruments about the time new Apple Silicon desktops arrive, perhaps in the Spring. Until then, there will be some frustration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apple's macOS 12 Monterey Compatibility
> 
> 
> Also, has anyone uses Kontakt in ProTools on an M1 chip computer with OS 11 on it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.native-instruments.com


Along these lines, I noticed yesterday that Massive X is now supported on Apple Silicon under Rosetta 2 - it had previously been conjectured that it would be difficult to support, since it was dependent on extensions that weren't present on Apple Silicon.


----------



## danwool

PhilA said:


> Extra displays sure if that’s a requirement.
> Memory bandwidth, if you’re a video editor and need it to power the extra GPU cores sure,otherwise for music you’re not going to saturate what the Pro has anyway.


Well, a lot of sound and music people like me, use multiple monitors so it’s nice to know the extra $ I shelled out for the Max isn’t *just* for more RAM


----------



## danwool

samphony said:


> This mac rocks. Oh and by the way attaching all displays to the thunderbolt dock with only ONE cable leading back to the macbook for all data connections is a dream come true!


When you say “all displays” do you mean more than two? My understanding was that only two displays per Tb port was possible.


----------



## mat1

khollister said:


> I don't really remember. And since I saved the project with everything purged, there is no easy way to unpurge 300 instances - there is a "purge all instances" command but not the reverse and I'm sure as hell not doing it manually for 300 tracks.


Cool! Good to hear the swap is allowing so much extra headroom


----------



## jcrosby

*i9 Macbook vs M1 Max Kontakt Instance Count Project Updated:*

* The project has been updated so that all active tracks now receive MIDI in the correct range.
(Inactive tracks, i.e. tracks beyond my machine's playback ability, may need notes transposed. I've added a bypassed version of Logic's transpose MFX to make this quick and painless...)

* All eDNA patches have been removed so the results aren't potentially skewed by extra resources used to run Kontakt's fx. (There's a lot here to keep track of in this project, If you do find one just delete or deactivate the track).

* I removed all of the Solstice TM patches for the same reason...

Logic file below.

..................

@khollister here's an updated version of the Logic file.

Anyone else with an M1 Max that has the included libraries feel free to share your results...
(*Albion One, Albion Solstice, Albion Tundra*).
One thing to be aware of is you're most likely going to be greeted with the missing samples dialogue. Hitting _Search Spotlight_ should resolve the issue, may just take a few minutes to relink all samples...

People have been reporting slow load times. My load time is under a minute, if yours is a lot longer please report back... This is obviously something everyone would like to see improve, and it'd be useful to know if this is a universal issue NI should be hearing complaints about...


https://www.dropbox.com/s/mny2temfadm4i87/i9_M1_Max%20Comparison%201.1.logicx.zip?dl=0

....................

*EDIT:* Just realized I didn't post the final track count for my i9 MBP. The results are listed in a Logic session note that pops up when you open the project, but it's off by 5 tracks. (Killing the TM patches upped my final track count by 5...) The RAM usage shifted a little from the number in the session note, final results with this updated version are:

*257 playback tracks*.

*RAM in use* (nothing running except Logic & Activity Monitor): *42.2 GB*.


----------



## Grilled Cheese

khollister said:


> An update on the HWO OPUS testing. Played 300 tracks of HWB and HWS, mostly legato Slur MAX patches, monophonic MIDI lines, no overload (might be able to add another 20 tracks or so but ran out of patience). The best news - time to launch Logic and open project, 41s. Time to save, 45s.
> Purged all instances and used about 57GB of RAM.


Wait…what!? Can you please confirm…you loaded a project with 300 instances of OPUS and 57 GB of RAM in just 41 seconds? Wow! 😮


----------



## cedricm

This may be of interest:
Why your external monitor looks awful on Arm-based Macs, the open source fix – and the guy who wrote it


----------



## khollister

Grilled Cheese said:


> Wait…what!? Can you please confirm…you loaded a project with 300 instances of OPUS and 57 GB of RAM in just 41 seconds? Wow! 😮


correct


----------



## Grilled Cheese

khollister said:


> correct


😮 My 2013 Mac Pro with external SSDs would take about 6 weeks to load that. 

OK I’m done holding out. Ordering a 16 inch M1 Max. Upgrade time!


----------



## HeliaVox

I just got my 16' M1Max a week ago. So far, I'm loving it!


----------



## colony nofi

Ended up ordered a fully loaded M1Max in order to test it with our own benchmarks (using nuendo, kontakt, spat revolution in different benchmarks)

Won't be arriving before end of Jan (the 64GB machines are still taking a LONG time, as are larger SSD's)

We now have 4 different M1 machines in at the studios, so hopefully it will show up differences between them. It may even be worth picking up a decent 14" M1 Pro just so we can see the performance difference. Personally, the only reason I went max was to be able to get the higher amount of ram.

Linus Tech Tips today showed up some interesting things on the CPU and GPU side.


----------



## anderslink

jcrosby said:


> *i9 Macbook vs M1 Max Kontakt Instance Count Project Updated:*
> 
> * The project has been updated so that all active tracks now receive MIDI in the correct range.
> (Inactive tracks, i.e. tracks beyond my machine's playback ability, may need notes transposed. I've added a bypassed version of Logic's transpose MFX to make this quick and painless...)
> 
> * All eDNA patches have been removed so the results aren't potentially skewed by extra resources used to run Kontakt's fx. (There's a lot here to keep track of in this project, If you do find one just delete or deactivate the track).
> 
> * I removed all of the Solstice TM patches for the same reason...
> 
> Logic file below.
> 
> ..................
> 
> @khollister here's an updated version of the Logic file.
> 
> Anyone else with an M1 Max that has the included libraries feel free to share your results...
> (*Albion One, Albion Solstice, Albion Tundra*).
> One thing to be aware of is you're most likely going to be greeted with the missing samples dialogue. Hitting _Search Spotlight_ should resolve the issue, may just take a few minutes to relink all samples...
> 
> People have been reporting slow load times. My load time is under a minute, if yours is a lot longer please report back... This is obviously something everyone would like to see improve, and it'd be useful to know if this is a universal issue NI should be hearing complaints about...
> 
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/mny2temfadm4i87/i9_M1_Max%20Comparison%201.1.logicx.zip?dl=0
> 
> ....................
> 
> *EDIT:* Just realized I didn't post the final track count for my i9 MBP. The results are listed in a Logic session note that pops up when you open the project, but it's off by 5 tracks. (Killing the TM patches upped my final track count by 5...) The RAM usage shifted a little from the number in the session note, final results with this updated version are:
> 
> *257 playback tracks*.
> 
> *RAM in use* (nothing running except Logic & Activity Monitor): *42.2 GB*.


In the 10 minutes I let it load it did open in Logic 10.7.1 but won't function or react at all. Monterey, 64gb, M1 Max here. Ram doesn't seem to be loading quickly in activity monitor either. NI says Monterey isn't supported yet so I guess they really are right, it is not supported.


----------



## rickdeckard

Hi, question for VSL users.

I use VSL libraries exclusively, at this point I’d say 60% on the Synchron Player and the remaining on VI Pro. I don’t use VEP.

I also don’t like or use massive templates.

Would you say I could work on a 50/60 tracks template with an M1 Pro 32GB and enough storage to keep the libraries om the internal ssd? Would storing the libraries on an external usb-c ssd affect the result consistently?


Thanks a lot
Best regards
r


----------



## jcrosby

anderslink said:


> In the 10 minutes I let it load it did open in Logic 10.7.1 but won't function or react at all. Monterey, 64gb, M1 Max here. Ram doesn't seem to be loading quickly in activity monitor either. NI says Monterey isn't supported yet so I guess they really are right, it is not supported.


Eek! Sorry to hear! Hope it gets sorted asap. Please try and quote me back once situation improves and you have a rough track count for comparison... 

And no pressure of course... just hoping that performance is noticeably better once whatever kinks need working out eventually get resolved...


----------



## KEM

Quick question for those of you with the knowledge and experience to give me a good answer, so my current setup is a 2015 MacBook Pro with 16gb of ram which is what I use to run Cubase, all my soft synths, effects plugins, etc. and then all my sample libraries are on VEP on a PC going into Cubase on the Mac, I have zero issues with my PC but my Mac is being completely overloaded on everything I do, my buffer size is all the way up and freezing/rendering tracks does help a little bit it’s not much and my computer still can’t handle it

So my question is this: I plan on getting the next Mac Mini that comes out, assuming it uses the M1 Pro/Max and not the M2 should I go with the M1 Pro with 32gb of ram or do I really need to go all out and get the M1 Mac with 64gb of ram?


----------



## Nachivnik

KEM said:


> Quick question for those of you with the knowledge and experience to give me a good answer, so my current setup is a 2015 MacBook Pro with 16gb of ram which is what I use to run Cubase, all my soft synths, effects plugins, etc. and then all my sample libraries are on VEP on a PC going into Cubase on the Mac, I have zero issues with my PC but my Mac is being completely overloaded on everything I do, my buffer size is all the way up and freezing/rendering tracks does help a little bit it’s not much and my computer still can’t handle it
> 
> So my question is this: I plan on getting the next Mac Mini that comes out, assuming it uses the M1 Pro/Max and not the M2 should I go with the M1 Pro with 32gb of ram or do I really need to go all out and get the M1 Mac with 64gb of ram?


To me, it sounds like you are a candidate for a 64GB RAM M1 Max Mac. If the new Mac + PC is more than you need, you can offload some (most?) of the PC work to the Mac.


----------



## KEM

Nachivnik said:


> To me, it sounds like you are a candidate for a 64GB RAM M1 Max Mac. If the new Mac + PC is more than you need, you can offload some (most?) of the PC work to the Mac.



So I just found out last night that MacOS has its own version of task manager called activity monitor that I for some reason never knew existed, so I did a test and loaded up the project that’s been making my computer have an aneurism and found out that my ram usage is about 11gb, so I still have a bit of room available there, whereas my cpu load was hitting at over 650%!! So needless to say it looks like I’m ok on ram right now and the issue is completely on the cpu, I might even be able to get the regular M1 and be fine??


----------



## rnb_2

KEM said:


> So I just found out last night that MacOS has its own version of task manager called activity monitor that I for some reason never knew existed, so I did a test and loaded up the project that’s been making my computer have an aneurism and found out that my ram usage is about 11gb, so I still have a bit of room available there, whereas my cpu load was hitting at over 650%!! So needless to say it looks like I’m ok on ram right now and the issue is completely on the cpu, I might even be able to get the regular M1 and be fine??


Is this a 15" 2015? How much storage?

If you're happy with your current setup, you could either take a look at an M1 Air/Pro (there are bigger discounts on the 13" Pro right now, but not enough to bring it down to the Air's price), or maybe a base 14" or 16" M1 Pro (if you want the larger screen). The base 14" M1 Pro (8-core CPU/14-core GPU/512GB) would give you a bit more performance than an M1 - probably 25-35% - and a glorious screen, but even the M1 benchmarks over twice as fast as a 2015 2.8GHz 15".

Of course, if you want to ditch the PC and have everything on one machine, you're looking at an M1 Pro with 32GB RAM and enough storage for everything, at a minimum. If you have the budget, it's certainly an option, but whether it's worth going that far is up to you. My feeling about the M1 Max is that, for music, you only need it if you know you need 64GB of RAM or more than 2 external displays. Otherwise, stick with the M1 Pro (or M1).


----------



## KEM

rnb_2 said:


> Is this a 15" 2015? How much storage?
> 
> If you're happy with your current setup, you could either take a look at an M1 Air/Pro (there are bigger discounts on the 13" Pro right now, but not enough to bring it down to the Air's price), or maybe a base 14" or 16" M1 Pro (if you want the larger screen). The base 14" M1 Pro (8-core CPU/14-core GPU/512GB) would give you a bit more performance than an M1 - probably 25-35% - and a glorious screen, but even the M1 benchmarks over twice as fast as a 2015 2.8GHz 15".
> 
> Of course, if you want to ditch the PC and have everything on one machine, you're looking at an M1 Pro with 32GB RAM and enough storage for everything, at a minimum. If you have the budget, it's certainly an option, but whether it's worth going that far is up to you. My feeling about the M1 Max is that, for music, you only need it if you know you need 64GB of RAM or more than 2 external displays. Otherwise, stick with the M1 Pro (or M1).



Yes it’s a maxed out 15” 2015 MBP with 1tb of storage (that’s almost completely filled up) and it’s certainly the weak link in my setup, everything else is fine so that’s the only thing I’m looking to replace, I honestly have no desire to get another MacBook, I already have an external monitor that my current one is hooked up to and I never even open the lid on mine so there’s no reason for me to spend extra money to get another one, so that’s why I’d rather just wait on the Mac Mini update because that is the most ideal for my current setup, I’m still gonna use my PC as I do right now so I’m thinking probably an M1 Pro Mac Mini with 16gb of ram (possibly 32gb) and absolutely 2tb of storage, that should keep me in the clear

But my only question is that the current M1 Mac Mini might even be powerful enough so there might not even be a point in waiting and spending extra money on the refresh, I’m just torn on it


----------



## rnb_2

KEM said:


> Yes it’s a maxed out 15” 2015 MBP with 1tb of storage (that’s almost completely filled up) and it’s certainly the weak link in my setup, everything else is fine so that’s the only thing I’m looking to replace, I honestly have no desire to get another MacBook, I already have an external monitor that my current one is hooked up to and I never even open the lid on mine so there’s no reason for me to spend extra money to get another one, so that’s why I’d rather just wait on the Mac Mini update because that is the most ideal for my current setup, I’m still gonna use my PC as I do right now so I’m thinking probably an M1 Pro Mac Mini with 16gb of ram (possibly 32gb) and absolutely 2tb of storage, that should keep me in the clear
> 
> But my only question is that the current M1 Mac Mini might even be powerful enough so there might not even be a point in waiting and spending extra money on the refresh, I’m just torn on it


Based on that, I'd say get an M1 Mac mini and try it - if you buy it from Apple, you have until January 8th to start a return.


----------



## KEM

rnb_2 said:


> Based on that, I'd say get an M1 Mac mini and try it - if you buy it from Apple, you have until January 8th to start a return.



Yeah I’ve been looking into their return policy for that very reason, I actually work at Best Buy right now so I do get a slight discount, I’ll see if I can get my hands on one for a good price soon and test it out, if it can run this project I’m working on right now without much stress I’ll keep it, if it can’t I’ll just return it and wait for the next Mac Mini they come out with


----------



## Grilled Cheese

Grilled Cheese said:


> 😮 My 2013 Mac Pro with external SSDs would take about 6 weeks to load that.
> 
> OK I’m done holding out. Ordering a 16 inch M1 Max. Upgrade time!


OK so I’ve ordered a 16 inch M1 Max with 64gb ram and 4tb hard disk. 😁

Unfortunately it won’t arrive until early February 2022. 😭

Fortunately I’m on a break until then anyway. 😁


----------



## Loïc D

I'm kinda on the opposite path now.

I think I'll go for a M1 Max + 32GB + 2TB after first eyeing 64GB + 4TB.
I'm no pro, and I guess that a mid-spec'd MBP will more than sufficient.

And spend the saved money on booze.


----------



## wayne_rowley

Loïc D said:


> I'm kinda on the opposite path now.
> 
> I think I'll go for a M1 Max + 32GB + 2TB after first eyeing 64GB + 4TB.
> I'm no pro, and I guess that a mid-spec'd MBP will more than sufficient.
> 
> And spend the saved money on booze.


I know what you mean. If you're going with 32GB though you might as well stick to the 10 Core Pro rather than Max chip. The extra GPU cores won't help for music.

Wayne


----------



## wayne_rowley

I'm thinking now I might stick 64GB into my Intel Mini and wait another year or so. The new chips/machines are great... but a year after the M1 and so much music software still is not compatible, and if it is it's only via Rosetta.

I'd rather sit it out with Intel until everything is fully up-and-running properly and natively.

Wayne


----------



## Nimrod7

wayne_rowley said:


> but a year after the M1 and so much music software still is not compatible, and if it is it's only via Rosetta.


That's a great point. 
The world is not yet ready for M1. I have my laptop 3 weeks now, and while is great, I am experiencing the lack of proper software / hardware compatibility.

Here are some real world testing (music & non-music stuff): 

- Logic is hit and miss with plugins, some working well, some are not.
- Pro Tools (which I am using for broadcast work) while are working under Rosetta, they crash when using some AAX plugins. E.g. Izotope RX Loudness Control, and Dialog Repair. Avid saying they are working on it, Izotope is saying that is waiting for Avid! 
- Davinci Resolve does all sorts of weird things in the UI (unclickable button, randomly becomes non responsive) using the native M1 version. Things are a bit better with Rosetta. 
- Blender 3.1 (which is unoptimized for Metal) it seems to be 3.5 slower than my PC at the moment. 
- Octane Render still lacks DCC's that are working with Monterey, there is only a standalone out.
- Some other C4D Plugins are hit and miss like XParticles, which are tedious to install, but once done they work.

Some other weird stuff (might be hardware compatibility issues with drivers I have installed):

- The Macbook Pro is restarting randomly when connected to a dock with an external monitor. 

It's getting better every day, but I believe needs at least a year.


----------



## anderslink

I don't use the above software but the only thing not working reasonably well for me at this point that I would actually like to use is Kontakt. Logic does have some bugs, and so does Monterey. I have been able to switch to other pieces of software for most things except for Kontakt. I do kinda miss Ozone and Softube plugins though. Even through Rosetta RX takes less time to de-noise files compared to my old computer so things like that, among a million other things, make it worth it so far.


----------



## hessproject

Got my M1 Max about 2 weeks ago, so far my main issue, and I imagine it's a big one for people on this forum, is Monterey's ongoing issues with external hard drives, it has some trouble mounting and reading certain drives (I've had issues with Samsung, Sandisk, and WD), and sometimes writes lock up the drive and it is unable to unmount and the computer needs to be rebooted. So far I've had this happen using Native Access, Heavyocity Portal, and the Spitfire App. This appears to be a Monterey issue and not an M1 issue though

There is a lot of discussion about these types of problems on Apple forums, some people totally unable to use their harddrives and some not having issues at all, but they have been my main blocker for writing music on the new laptop and the main reason I'm still mostly using my Intel Mac Mini running Catalina. Everything else about the computer is great, so I hope they work out the Monterey kinks soon and I can use it as my main computer


----------



## jcrosby

anderslink said:


> I don't use the above software but the only thing not working reasonably well for me at this point that I would actually like to use is Kontakt. Logic does have some bugs, and so does Monterey. I have been able to switch to other pieces of software for most things except for Kontakt. I do kinda miss Ozone and Softube plugins though. Even through Rosetta RX takes less time to de-noise files compared to my old computer so things like that, among a million other things, make it worth it so far.


No Ozone? Ouch! My entire workflow relies on various Ozone modules so that's an immediate deal breaker


----------



## PeterBaumann

hessproject said:


> Got my M1 Max about 2 weeks ago, so far my main issue, and I imagine it's a big one for people on this forum, is Monterey's ongoing issues with external hard drives, it has some trouble mounting and reading certain drives (I've had issues with Samsung, Sandisk, and WD), and sometimes writes lock up the drive and it is unable to unmount and the computer needs to be rebooted. So far I've had this happen using Native Access, Heavyocity Portal, and the Spitfire App. This appears to be a Monterey issue and not an M1 issue though


Interesting. I've got an M1 Max running 10 external drives through one cable via a Caldigit TS3+ and, touch wood, have not had this issue in the past few days of testing. Is it _only_ when using those apps, or during general use too?


----------



## hessproject

PeterBaumann said:


> Interesting. I've got an M1 Max running 10 external drives through one cable via a Caldigit TS3+ and, touch wood, have not had this issue in the past few days of testing. Is it _only_ when using those apps, or during general use too?


Using those applications works for a little while, then after 15-30 minutes locks up the harddrive, could potentially be a software issue with those installers as well, but there are enough external harddrive complaints on discussions.apple (https://discussions.apple.com/thread/253298287) and WD had a (since taken down) support article up a few days ago saying they were aware of some issues, so I'm not sure.

I haven't been able to test it much for general use yet, right now most of my libraries are installing onto the drive via my intel mac, will hopefully get to test it out some more later today


----------



## khollister

The only external drive issue I have had on my M1 Max is not being able to remount a drive after ejecting it unless I rebooted. I called Apple, they confirmed they had other reports of the same thing, and the recent MacOS 12.1 update (which included a firmware update too) seems to have fixed it so far.


----------



## Petter Rong

hessproject said:


> Got my M1 Max about 2 weeks ago, so far my main issue, and I imagine it's a big one for people on this forum, is Monterey's ongoing issues with external hard drives, it has some trouble mounting and reading certain drives (I've had issues with Samsung, Sandisk, and WD), and sometimes writes lock up the drive and it is unable to unmount and the computer needs to be rebooted. So far I've had this happen using Native Access, Heavyocity Portal, and the Spitfire App. This appears to be a Monterey issue and not an M1 issue though


Haven't had any issues with any of my SSDs (Kingston, Intel, Samsung, Crucial) at least. Don't know if it's specific to hard drives (I'm at Monterey 12.0.1)


jcrosby said:


> No Ozone? Ouch! My entire workflow relies on various Ozone modules so that's an immediate deal breaker


Ozone 9 Standard (and all other iZotope plugins I use) works fine for me in Logic 10.7.2 in Rosetta 2, no issues to report. Don't have the individual module plugins, so can't comment on that. So many different plugins that doesn't support native M1 yet, so Rosetta 2 is the best way to go right now IMO


----------



## tmhuud

Loïc D said:


> And spend the saved money on booze.


Smart man!


----------



## PeterBaumann

Petter Rong said:


> Haven't had any issues with any of my SSDs (Kingston, Intel, Samsung, Crucial) at least. Don't know if it's specific to hard drives (I'm at Monterey 12.0.1)
> 
> Ozone 9 Standard (and all other iZotope plugins I use) works fine for me in Logic 10.7.2 in Rosetta 2, no issues to report. Don't have the individual module plugins, so can't comment on that. So many different plugins that doesn't support native M1 yet, so Rosetta 2 is the best way to go right now IMO


I had a question about Rosetta vs Native in this thread — any chance you can give me some guidance please?


----------



## Soundhound

A friend just showed me his m1 mac running 23 instances of diva at ablut 50% cpu on ableton live cpu meter. not my daw so don’t know… but in case that result helps anyone…


----------



## Petter Rong

After a bit of testing, it seems that saving a Logic project to my external drive takes quite a bit of time compared to my 2013 MBPro. Like 10-15 seconds. Everytime I save. Which is weird. Nothing wrong with the drives as far as I can tell. Saving to internal takes no time whatsoever.


----------



## hessproject

Following up on my previous comment re: external harddrive problems- I haven't had any drive issues with reads since updating to 12.1. Still issues with writes using Spitfire, Heavyocity, and Native Access apps when downloading directly to drive, but have worked around it by either installing via another computer, or installing to the internal drive and relocating to the external drive via finder so I'm thinking the read issue was fixed in 12.1 and the write issues are related to software problems with those apps and no longer OS issues.


----------



## RSK

hessproject said:


> Got my M1 Max about 2 weeks ago, so far my main issue, and I imagine it's a big one for people on this forum, is Monterey's ongoing issues with external hard drives, it has some trouble mounting and reading certain drives (I've had issues with Samsung, Sandisk, and WD), and sometimes writes lock up the drive and it is unable to unmount and the computer needs to be rebooted. So far I've had this happen using Native Access, Heavyocity Portal, and the Spitfire App. This appears to be a Monterey issue and not an M1 issue though
> 
> There is a lot of discussion about these types of problems on Apple forums, some people totally unable to use their harddrives and some not having issues at all, but they have been my main blocker for writing music on the new laptop and the main reason I'm still mostly using my Intel Mac Mini running Catalina. Everything else about the computer is great, so I hope they work out the Monterey kinks soon and I can use it as my main computer


When I first started using an M1 with an external SSD, I noticed that it's very picky about cables. Can't say whether that's the laptop or the drive, but everything cleared up when I bought a high-quality cable.

This may or may not be your issue, but thought I would put it out there just in case it might help.


----------



## chromatic

Soundhound said:


> A friend just showed me his m1 mac running 23 instances of diva at ablut 50% cpu on ableton live cpu meter. not my daw so don’t know… but in case that result helps anyone…


Hello  
What were the Diva instance playing ? Chords ? Mono ? Etc etc,,, if you know it  
Thanks!


----------



## Soundhound

chromatic said:


> Hello
> What were the Diva instance playing ? Chords ? Mono ? Etc etc,,, if you know it
> Thanks!


I don’t but will ask


----------



## Drumdude2112

Soooo (sorry if this has been asked and/or answered ) Is the difference between Max and Pro strictly in the GPU count , hence not really offering any performance increase for audio ?


----------



## rnb_2

Drumdude2112 said:


> Soooo (sorry if this has been asked and/or answered ) Is the difference between Max and Pro strictly in the GPU count , hence not really offering any performance increase for audio ?


Almost completely. The only things relevant to composers are the higher RAM limit for Max (64GB vs 32GB for Pro) and the Max allows more external displays (4 vs 2).


----------



## chromatic

Soundhound said:


> I don’t but will ask


Thanks  i am sure that will interest many on that forum


----------



## RSK

Just pulled the trigger on a Max with 64GB and 4TB. Hoping it will last for the next 5-7 years.


----------



## rnb_2

RSK said:


> Just pulled the trigger on a Max with 64GB and 4TB. Hoping it will last for the next 5-7 years.


Congratulations! What does your delivery date look like?


----------



## RSK

rnb_2 said:


> Congratulations! What does your delivery date look like?


Late February.

I went with the highest RAM and SSD because the only three certainties are death, taxes, and you'll need twice as much of both in two years.


----------



## 3CPU

I was going to build another desktop but then along came Apple silicon! Very impressive. Now I am leaning heavily towards the Apple Silicon paired with Logic Pro and RME Babyface Pro FS. I will probably need the 10-core, 32GB of unified memory, 24-core GPU for Blender and video editing, and at least 1TB SSD. But I will probably wait, if rumors are true I would prefer a spec'd up Mac Mini -- I did plan for a new desktop by May 2022, hopefully everything goes as planned or get the 14" MBP M1 with above mentioned specs and hook that up to a 43" 4K Sony TV.


----------



## Soundhound

chromatic said:


> Thanks  i am sure that will interest many on that forum


It was spurious information! mea culpa… Turns out it was omnisphere not diva. 

Playing triads. he doesn’t remember what the patch was.


----------



## chromatic

Soundhound said:


> It was spurious information! mea culpa… Turns out it was omnisphere not diva.
> 
> Playing triads. he doesn’t remember what the patch was.


Thanks


----------



## Virtuoso

Drumdude2112 said:


> Soooo (sorry if this has been asked and/or answered ) Is the difference between Max and Pro strictly in the GPU count , hence not really offering any performance increase for audio ?


What @rnb_2 said, plus the Max has 400GB/s memory bandwidth (200GB/s on the Pro). I have no idea how significant that is for audio. Not relevant to audio, but it also has double the video encode/decode engines.


----------



## rnb_2

Virtuoso said:


> What @rnb_2 said, plus the Max has 400GB/s memory bandwidth (200GB/s on the Pro). I have no idea how significant that is for audio. Not relevant to audio, but it also has double the video encode/decode engines.


From everything I've seen, the extra memory bandwidth will only come into play if you're stressing all 32 GPU cores, so it's likely that only high end video will see much benefit.


----------



## danwool

Is there any way to determine if a plugin is running natively, or via Rosetta? ...I'm losing track of which plugins I'm running have been updated.


----------



## 3CPU

danwool said:


> Is there any way to determine if a plugin is running natively, or via Rosetta? ...I'm losing track of which plugins I'm running have been updated.


Hope this helps - Link


----------



## danwool

3CPU said:


> Hope this helps - Link


Thanks, but not really. I'm looking for a way to see if I've already installed the plugins on that list. ....or this list, actually on ProTools Experts - it's updated fairly regularly. It's easy to determine on apps of course via Get Info, but is there a way to examine a plugin's Package Contents or something to extract this info?


----------



## 3CPU

danwool said:


> Thanks, but not really. I'm looking for a way to see if I've already installed the plugins on that list. ....or this list, actually on ProTools Experts - it's updated fairly regularly. It's easy to determine on apps of course via Get Info, but is there a way to examine a plugin's Package Contents or something to extract this info?


Not enough info for me to process! You need to be more informative about the DAW and version you are using -- do you not know where the plugin files are located and that these files should be extracted see further info about them? 

If you are using Protools 11 or later go to Library/Application Support/Avid/Audio/Plug-Ins 

I have tons of plugins and always make sure where they are located, and then I can see what version they are and if I need to update! I prefer to update manually.


----------



## danwool

3CPU said:


> Not enough info for me to process! You need to be more informative about the DAW and version you are using -- do you not know where the plugin files are located and that these files should be extracted see further info about them?
> 
> If you are using Protools 11 or later go to Library/Application Support/Avid/Audio/Plug-Ins
> 
> I have tons of plugins and always make sure where they are located, and then I can see what version they are and if I need to update! I prefer to update manually.


Thanks again. Let me try to be clearer.

Yes, I can easily see the version numbers of all my plugins in the Components folder, but the version number doesn't tell me if the plugin is running natively or via Rosetta with AU plugins. 

I use various DAWs btw. Using mostly AUs. As you may know, AUs is the plugin format that many DAWs other than ProTools use. They're kept in Library/Audio/Plug-ins/Components.

I too have a zillion plugins and would like to have a way of determining if the installed plugin version is running via Rosetta or natively without having to check a zillion plugin developer's websites.


----------



## khollister

https://eclecticlight.co/32-bitcheck-archichect/

https://github.com/DigiDNA/Silicon


----------



## danwool

khollister said:


> https://eclecticlight.co/32-bitcheck-archichect/
> 
> https://github.com/DigiDNA/Silicon


Perfecto! *Silicon* does exactly what I need. It's set up more for batch-identifying Intel-only apps, but will let you drag in items, including plugins, for verification. ...one at a time only for plugins, but that'll do fine.

*Archichect* looks more complicated, and could be Catalina only, so I didn't try it. Either way I'm good.

Thanks so much khollister!


----------



## khollister

danwool said:


> Perfecto! *Silicon* does exactly what I need. It's set up more for batch-identifying Intel-only apps, but will let you drag in items, including plugins, for verification. ...one at a time only for plugins, but that'll do fine.
> 
> *Archichect* looks more complicated, and could be Catalina only, so I didn't try it. Either way I'm good.
> 
> Thanks so much khollister!


Archichect works fine on Monterey. You start the app and then just drag and drop the plugin or app onto the dock icon. A window pops up with tons of info.


----------



## 3CPU

danwool said:


> Thanks again. Let me try to be clearer.
> 
> Yes, I can easily see the version numbers of all my plugins in the Components folder, but the version number doesn't tell me if the plugin is running natively or via Rosetta with AU plugins.
> 
> I use various DAWs btw. Using mostly AUs. As you may know, AUs is the plugin format that many DAWs other than ProTools use. They're kept in Library/Audio/Plug-ins/Components.
> 
> I too have a zillion plugins and would like to have a way of determining if the installed plugin version is running via Rosetta or natively without having to check a zillion plugin developer's websites.


I am happy *khollister* was able to help you.

I will be starting fresh with a new studio setup this year. 

Happy New Year! Wish you the very best.


----------



## rnb_2

khollister said:


> Archichect works fine on Monterey. You start the app and then just drag and drop the plugin or app onto the dock icon. A window pops up with tons of info.


But that icon: oof. And you can't replace it in the app package because it checks itself on startup and quits if you change anything.

Silicon doesn't give as much info, but at least it gives an app window so I don't have to drag icons across the screen (I have my dock on the right, and I use Path Finder in a window on the left half of one of my desktops), and the icon doesn't make all the rest of the icons in the dock angry.


----------



## Petter Rong

Drumdude2112 said:


> Soooo (sorry if this has been asked and/or answered ) Is the difference between Max and Pro strictly in the GPU count , hence not really offering any performance increase for audio ?


Mostly, yes. On the CPU part, if I have understood correctly, it's exactly the same, but on the GPU side it's more powerful (more encoders/decoders, more GPU RAM etc.). It also is a requirement to purchase with 64GB RAM, the Pro max out at 32GB


----------



## danwool

Petter Rong said:


> Mostly, yes. On the CPU part, if I have understood correctly, it's exactly the same, but on the GPU side it's more powerful (more encoders/decoders, more GPU RAM etc.). It also is a requirement to purchase with 64GB RAM, the Pro max out at 32GB


There is a 32gb RAM option for the M1 Max MBPs, but 64gb seems like the bear minimum for music composition and production. The only reason I went for the Max is for the higher RAM.


----------



## KEM

danwool said:


> There is a 32gb RAM option for the M1 Max MBPs, but 64gb seems like the bear minimum for music composition and production. The only reason I went for the Max is for the higher RAM.



You can get away with 32gb if your samples are offload onto another computer through VEP, but for samples yeah you gotta have 64gb


----------



## benwiggy

KEM said:


> So I just found out last night that MacOS has its own version of task manager called activity monitor that I for some reason never knew existed, so I did a test and loaded up the project that’s been making my computer have an aneurism and found out that my ram usage is about 11gb, so I still have a bit of room available there, whereas my cpu load was hitting at over 650%!! So needless to say it looks like I’m ok on ram right now and the issue is completely on the cpu, I might even be able to get the regular M1 and be fine??


Note that "100%" refers to 1 core. So on an Intel 4-core CPU with hyperthreading (2 threads per core), you can have a maximum of 800%.


----------



## sherief83

pulled the trigger on a 64gb m1 max...won't get it until end of FEB. the wait is killing me lol

I've been using an M1 macbook Pro for work so I decided to test it out with external M.2 thunderbolt drive and RME AIO in a PCIx enclosure. 

So far everything works perfectly except for the fact that I kill that 16gb of ram so quick. The M1 seems to be able to handle alot of things so the M1 MAX will be something! can't wait for that 64GB though, highly highly recommended.


----------



## 3CPU

I see more comments regarding 64GB memory, I am now seriously considering that.

That old cliche saying... "The more the merrier." Definitely! For large orchestral compositions with a mix of otherworldly soundscapes, I may be doing that in the near future.


----------



## Flyo

But, a base model 14’ M1Pro (2021) with 16ram doesn’t get you much further with medium large session with vsts?


----------



## rnb_2

Flyo said:


> But, a base model 14’ M1Pro (2021) with 16ram doesn’t get you much further with medium large session with vsts?


No - that configuration is more for people who want the better display or selection of ports vs an M1. It would work well for general users (I would still probably recommend the MacBook Air in most cases), electronic musicians, or anyone who doesn't use a ton of samples. Once you start increasing the RAM or storage on that configuration, though, it's hard to justify not spending a little bit more to get the 10-core CPU (you can still save $100 by getting the 14-core GPU, since music won't stress the GPU).


----------



## 3CPU

The 10-core is going to have the edge in performance. 

If rumors are true the Mac Mini "Max" 10-core version could be released by 2022, that's the one I prefer. 

My Post Edited: Getting to the point.


----------



## benwiggy

I tested a 32Gb M1 Pro MBP running about 9 Gb of samples (OT Sine Player) in Steinberg's Dorico app - I also had bunch of other apps open - Safari, Mail, Preview, etc, etc, plus the OS itself, all taking RAM.







The similar test on the (otherwise identical) 16Gb model gave the following:






The M1 Pro's response was just to increase memory compression (by just under 3x) and use more swap. So, in reality, it's using 'more than 16 Gb'. The playback was perfectly fine, with no artefacts. There was no sluggishness in switching to other apps, either during or after playback.

Obviously, the OS is still trying to use as much RAM as possible: it's no coincidence that "Memory Used" plus "Cached Files" is the total RAM size for both cases.


----------



## 3CPU

benwiggy said:


> I tested a 32Gb M1 Pro MBP running about 9 Gb of samples (OT Sine Player) in Steinberg's Dorico app - I also had bunch of other apps open - Safari, Mail, Preview, etc, etc, plus the OS itself, all taking RAM.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The similar test on the 16Gb mode gave the following:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The M1 Pro's response was just to increase memory compression (by just under 3x) and use more swap. So, in reality, it's using 'more than 16 Gb'. The playback was perfectly fine, with no artefacts. There was no sluggishness in switching to other apps, either during or after playback.
> 
> Obviously, the OS is still trying to use as much RAM as possible: it's no coincidence that "Memory Used" plus "Cached Files" is the total RAM size for both cases.


There should be a difference between the 8-core Mac Book Air vs 10-core Mac Book Pro Max! 

I have seen a lot of videos on this subject based on real world use! *Spec's Please ~ Have 'you' provided a video? *


----------



## benwiggy

3CPU said:


> There should be a difference between the 8-core Mac Book Air vs 10-core Mac Book Pro Max!
> 
> I have seen a lot of videos on this subject based on real world use! *Spec's Please ~ Have 'you' provided a video? *


These are comparisons of two 16" M1 Pros. No, I have not provided a video.


----------



## 3CPU

benwiggy said:


> These are comparisons of two 16" M1 Pros. No, I have not provided a video.


For me and others who also work with 3D programs such as Blender and also do video editing, then the 10-core 32GB memory with 24-core or 32-core graphics makes more sense.

I know the spec'd up graphics are not required for a DAW, but in another case scenario for large sample based orchestral compositions then the option for 32GB or 64GB or memory will also include 24-core or 32-core GPU. Going this route the 24-core GPU is best bang for the dollar.


----------



## gzapper

I've had a M1 macbook pro with 64 Gigs for a month now. I haven't pushed it to hard, but have had biggish projects open in Dorico and DP at the same time (with lots of other stuff open). Have yet to hear the fan. 
Really, my only regret is in getting only a 2Tb drive. I realize now that the 8Tb is expensive but not so much more expensive than externals and so much more convenient.


----------



## Nimrod7

3CPU said:


> For me and others who also work with 3D programs such as Blender and also do video editing, then the 10-core 32GB memory with 24-core or 32-core graphics makes more sense.


Blender is sadly unoptimised for m1 native. 3.1 is in alpha, and I did some testing and found it quite slow at the moment. I believe by March that 3.1 will be closer to release, we will be able to see the true power of the GPU, with blender running on M1 architecture + Metal.




gzapper said:


> Have yet to hear the fan.


When I export from DaVanci Resolve the fan spins after 2-3 minutes, and it's audible. 
However in music applications I haven't managed to trigger it yet, however I am not doing that heavy work on that laptop, just basic dialogue editing, and light mixing.


----------



## Soundbed

benwiggy said:


> I tested a 32Gb M1 Pro MBP running about 9 Gb of samples (OT Sine Player) in Steinberg's Dorico app - I also had bunch of other apps open - Safari, Mail, Preview, etc, etc, plus the OS itself, all taking RAM.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The similar test on the (otherwise identical) 16Gb model gave the following:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The M1 Pro's response was just to increase memory compression (by just under 3x) and use more swap. So, in reality, it's using 'more than 16 Gb'. The playback was perfectly fine, with no artefacts. There was no sluggishness in switching to other apps, either during or after playback.
> 
> Obviously, the OS is still trying to use as much RAM as possible: it's no coincidence that "Memory Used" plus "Cached Files" is the total RAM size for both cases.


I would be interested in what stresses the 16GB rig, if you haven’t experienced problems so far. My impression is random reads from swap file versus random reads from “ram” are going to be the dealbreaker — ie what would push someone toward 32GB or 64GB — but I have yet to devise a test for my hypothesis. 

My understanding is the swap file is still one big file that cannot be randomly accessed as quick as “ram” cache in the same machine … regardless of hard drive speed … but, maybe there are real world examples that could somehow demonstrate that reading the file is “fast enough” for sample VIs in cases XYZ …?

Specifically, I’m thinking of voice count more and more often lately (as opposed to track count).

I loaded up a ton of Kontakt instruments into a single instance and started playing them all at once — hundreds of simultaneous voices — and the same M1 8GB mini that regularly runs plenty of “tracks” just fine … it started sputtering, likely because it was only threaded through a single ‘core’ and trying to read all those sample voices and so on. Nothing else was running on the machine (in the foreground). Only standalone Kontakt.


----------



## 3CPU

Nimrod7 said:


> Blender is sadly unoptimised for m1 native. 3.1 is in alpha, and I did some testing and found it quite slow at the moment. I believe by March that 3.1 will be closer to release, we will be able to see the true power of the GPU, with blender running on M1 architecture + Metal.


*Are you testing Eevee or CyclesX, and which one do you mostly use? *

I'm up to speed with the info from Blender! March is a good month for me. 

Cheers


----------



## benwiggy

Soundbed said:


> I would be interested in what stresses the 16GB rig, if you haven’t experienced problems so far. My impression is random reads from swap file versus random reads from “ram” are going to be the dealbreaker — ie what would push someone toward 32GB or 64GB — but I have yet to devise a test for my hypothesis.
> 
> My understanding is the swap file is still one big file that cannot be randomly accessed as quick as “ram” cache in the same machine … regardless of hard drive speed … but, maybe there are real world examples that could somehow demonstrate that reading the file is “fast enough” for sample VIs in cases XYZ …?
> 
> Specifically, I’m thinking of voice count more and more often lately (as opposed to track count).
> 
> I loaded up a ton of Kontakt instruments into a single instance and started playing them all at once — hundreds of simultaneous voices — and the same M1 8GB mini that regularly runs plenty of “tracks” just fine … it started sputtering, likely because it was only threaded through a single ‘core’ and trying to read all those sample voices and so on. Nothing else was running on the machine (in the foreground). Only standalone Kontakt.


Kontakt may well be the bottleneck there. 

But the SSD is 'quite fast'.






To come clean, after testing the 16Gb model, I took it back to the shop and ordered the 32 Gb one. Not because I observed any problems with my workload, but simply to give myself a bit of 'headroom' for future capabilities, and to avoid the anxiety of spending all that money and then forever wondering if I should have got more RAM....


----------



## Aldunate

Can the 64GB Ram model run the complete Spitfire BBCSO Orchestra?


----------



## Soundbed

benwiggy said:


> Kontakt may well be the bottleneck there.
> 
> But the SSD is 'quite fast'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To come clean, after testing the 16Gb model, I took it back to the shop and ordered the 32 Gb one. Not because I observed any problems with my workload, but simply to give myself a bit of 'headroom' for future capabilities, and to avoid the anxiety of spending all that money and then forever wondering if I should have got more RAM....


You're right! I forget Kontakt itself might be challenged in some way. Lots of variables to consider. Congratulations on the 64GB purchase, and peace of mind.


----------



## rnb_2

Soundbed said:


> You're right! I forget Kontakt itself might be challenged in some way. Lots of variables to consider. Congratulations on the 64GB purchase, and peace of mind.


I believe that some of the testing that some have done on M1 Pro/Max machines since they started arriving indicates that Kontakt is more problematic than other sample players that also aren't native, but are more modern. There is a lot of legacy code in Kontakt that apparently doesn't translate as efficiently as you'd hope, so while it does run, having lots of Kontakt instances in a template leads to long load times and unpredictable performance.


----------



## ridgero

Aldunate said:


> Can the 64GB Ram model run the complete Spitfire BBCSO Orchestra?


Why not?

It uses around 35 gigs?


----------



## Nimrod7

3CPU said:


> *Are you testing Eevee or CyclesX, and which one do you mostly use? *
> 
> I'm up to speed with the info from Blender! March is a good month for me.
> 
> Cheers


100% CyclesX, I am not using Eevee at all, so my comment above is not reflecting the performance of Eevee. I have no idea how it performs. Actually I am fully Octane, but I have yet to test it with Blender on a Mac, and I believe it's still behind in schedule (features) with the PC world.


----------



## gzapper

Aldunate said:


> Can the 64GB Ram model run the complete Spitfire BBCSO Orchestra?


YES!

I just opened up a template in DP 11 with I think 26 instances of BBCSO, plus kontakt (empty) and Omni (empty), plus some fx. Played in some gobblygook hands sliding around the keys, copy and pasted it all over the place and it played back fine (not that it sounded good, but ....). I've also safari with a ton of tabs and a bunch of other programs still open. Activity monitor said its at 49 gigs of ram total, but also says DP is only at 18 gigs.

DP is running in Rosetta and this is with the intel version of BBC.

Still haven't heard the fans go on this thing yet.


----------



## Nimrod7

ridgero said:


> It uses around 35 gigs?


I believe samples get uncompressed in memory (might not be valid for this specific library though).


----------



## 3CPU

Apple M1 Max, 10-core, 32-core GPU, up to 64GB Memory.

. Kontakt by NI will run via Rosetta2 / Monterey.

. According to Steinberg, Absolute is not supported. I may live without it, but very depressing if Kontakt by NI won't go full native support in the near future.

Steinberg recommends Absolute on Windows 10, no mention of Windows 11 support, no mention of support for M1, Monterey or Rosetta. This is according to their website > system-requirements > Absolute > OS.









System Requirements for Steinberg Products


Wondering if a certain product is compatible with your system? Then find here the system requirements for all Steinberg products.




www.steinberg.net





I watched two YouTube tests for Kontakt on Apple M1 Max, required to run via Rosetta2. -- Kontakt works without clicks or pops but there is noticeable long load times as rnb_2 said, and as demonstrated in two videos however! The videos demonstate a lot of Kontakt tracks running, up to 242 tracks. What if I was only running 48 tracks, will there still be a noticeable long load time?





.
-------------

I will be running The Grandeur and other sounds such as HeavyOcity Damage. Laying the foundations, adding orchestral arrangements can come later.

*Question is, when will NI Kontakt be fully (native) supported?*

I prefer to not run Rosetta2 at all, and certainly not indefinitely.


----------



## benwiggy

3CPU said:


> I prefer to not run Rosetta2 at all, and certainly not indefinitely.


There is absolutely no reason for shunning Rosetta2, particularly if the alternative is .... no software.

Rest assured that Apple won't support Rosetta indefinitely, but will remove it from the OS at some point in the future. 

When Apple removed Rosetta last time, users complained about Apple 'suddenly' breaking things -- after they had continually told developers for over 6 years to update their code... 

Apple have learnt their lesson, and now bring up warnings saying "this app needs to be updated. Contact the developers", before removing support.


----------



## gzapper

benwiggy said:


> There is absolutely no reason for shunning Rosetta2, particularly if the alternative is .... no software.
> 
> Rest assured that Apple won't support Rosetta indefinitely, but will remove it from the OS at some point in the future.
> 
> When Apple removed Rosetta last time, users complained about Apple 'suddenly' breaking things -- after they had continually told developers for over 6 years to update their code...
> 
> Apple have learnt their lesson, and now bring up warnings saying "this app needs to be updated. Contact the developers", before removing support.


Absolutely, so far this M1 macbook pro is running way better than my last intel macbook pro even in Rosetta. Even if it stayed like this it would be a massive increase in power and RAM for me. When the silicon updates come I imagine its only going to get better.


----------



## mixedmoods

3CPU said:


> I may live without it, but very depressing if Kontakt by NI won't go full native support in the near future.


Was there anything official by NI regarding the status of their transition to native?
I was actually hoping for an update coming soon.
VSL will release native versions of their SYNCHRON players in the next weeks and Spitfire is working on it too.


----------



## wayne_rowley

mixedmoods said:


> Was there anything official by NI regarding the status of their transition to native?
> I was actually hoping for an update coming soon.
> VSL will release native versions of their SYNCHRON players in the next weeks and Spitfire is working on it too.


I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see native AS until Kontakt 7... or the next paid-for Komplete update.


----------



## Vik

3CPU said:


> I watched two YouTube tests for Kontakt on Apple M1 Max, required to run via Rosetta2. -- Kontakt works without clicks or pops but there is noticeable long load times as rnb_2 said


At least one of these videos has been discussed here earlier. Unfortunately, the track count they show are rather irrelevant for what most memebers in this forum does: we deal with complex sample libraries where a single presets often uses 2-3 gb or more, where two tracks never are identical and with lots of crossfading between vibrato- and dynamic layers.


----------



## Vik

wayne_rowley said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see native AS until Kontakt 7... or the next paid-for Komplete update.


A member here suggested in an earlier thread that that native iLok and/or native Kontakt could be available before the end of 2021. Anyone here who are aware if news about that?


----------



## mixedmoods

Vik said:


> A member here suggested in an earlier thread that that native iLok and/or native Kontakt could be available before the end of 2021. Anyone here who are aware if news about that?


Maybe @EvilDragon is able to share updates on the status of the transition to native?


----------



## 3CPU

gzapper said:


> Absolutely, so far this M1 macbook pro is running way better than my last intel macbook pro even in Rosetta. Even if it stayed like this it would be a massive increase in power and RAM for me. When the silicon updates come I imagine its only going to get better.


Good post! And agreed, it will get better! The M1 is a great start for Apple's silicon (first ARM-based system for Macs), competition is going to make it happen.


----------



## Soundbed

mixedmoods said:


> Was there anything official by NI regarding the status of their transition to native?
> I was actually hoping for an update coming soon.
> VSL will release native versions of their SYNCHRON players in the next weeks and Spitfire is working on it too.


Do you mean other than this page?

_"We are working to ensure full support for Apple Silicon across all of our current products, but time frames for compatibility will vary, and we are not yet able to announce any specific dates.

We will keep you updated with any new developments on this topic, but in the meantime, please check updates to this page to obtain current information on compatibility with Apple Silicon."_









Apple Silicon (M1) Compatibility News


On November 10th, 2020, Apple announced the release of the first Mac computers to contain Apple Silicon, their new generation of processors. Apple Silicon Macs require Apple’s latest macOS operatin...




support.native-instruments.com


----------



## rnb_2

Vik said:


> A member here suggested in an earlier thread that that native iLok and/or native Kontakt could be available before the end of 2021. Anyone here who are aware if news about that?


Native iLok support was supposed to become available for developers before the end of 2021 - I don't know if that actually happened, but there would probably still be some work for developers to do from that point. Is anyone up-to-date on Pace's actual releases?

The big announcement I'm looking forward to is VSL, but that one is more complicated than a simple native+iLok update, given the complexity of switching from eLicenser to iLok. I'll be very happy for my 500mb fiber connection whenever it happens, since it's going to involve re-downloading all of BBO (and Smart Orchestra + Expansion + Hits, but those are tiny by comparison).


----------



## dts_marin

Anyone here with both a 16 core MP 2019 and an M1 Max 16" MBP? A colleague of mine needs to update his ageing 2012 MP setup. 

My main concerns with the MBP are graphical performance and thermals. Using Thunderbolt to do everything is a failure IMO and that's why they started adding ports back. I believe the MP is a much more solid platform but at the same time the cost is absurd. 

The requirements are: DP11 master computer with VEP7, 3 x 1080p displays (will be updated to 4K). A fairly big template with lots of busses and reverbs ,a few Omnisphere and Kontakt instances plus some mixing plugins inside DP.

If someone has been using both systems please let us now how they compare in performance.


----------



## 3CPU

Vik said:


> At least one of these videos has been discussed here earlier. Unfortunately, the track count they show are rather irrelevant for what most memebers in this forum does: we deal with complex sample libraries where a single presets often uses 2-3 gb or more, where two tracks never are identical and with lots of crossfading between vibrato- and dynamic layers.


Good point! Thank you.

A test for Kontakt via Rosetta2, up to 242 tracks, impressive considering the method is heavier weighed in due to 'all tracks' stacked! Of course not all projects are the same and also take into consideration clever arrangements and optimizations can reduce load on resources! I also like to roll my own, make changes that sound great whilst using less resources. When you have a lot of instruments it requires clever use of instrumental arrangements to achieve better overall clarity of the mix, using filters (multi-EQ) on the tracks is kind of like trying to fix it, whereas I prefer to get it right at the source and in the instrumentation (arrangements).

Another part of my work flow is to group tracks and apply effects on the buss. 

And I like to layer some 'audio tracks' to achieve more depth and character. 

I've been involved for many years and have credits in TV, radio and live performances! Guess I must be doing something right -- except I did burn out and fell serious ill due to all that hard work. Nowadays I have slowed down a lot and enjoy working from home, no pressure eh, I don't want to experience another heart attack. 

As for *Rosetta2*, 
I appreciate Apple doing that (thank you), it is the third-parties that are trying to get up to speed, afterall this is quite a move with Apple's first ARM based for Mac (M1 silicon) and it will get better. We have competition to thank for that, which is good. My personal theme for this year, stay positive, keep calm and most of all, don't panic.


----------



## 3CPU

mixedmoods said:


> Was there anything official by NI regarding the status of their transition to native?
> I was actually hoping for an update coming soon.
> VSL will release native versions of their SYNCHRON players in the next weeks and Spitfire is working on it too.


Just read the article about the Synchron player, I would like to see a demonstration when it is released. Thanks for sharing that information.


----------



## mixedmoods

Soundbed said:


> Do you mean other than this page?
> 
> _"We are working to ensure full support for Apple Silicon across all of our current products, but time frames for compatibility will vary, and we are not yet able to announce any specific dates._


Yeah, but this is pretty vague and Kontakt is not even mentioned.
I was hoping for some rumours at least.


----------



## Fa

rnb_2 said:


> Native iLok support was supposed to become available for developers before the end of 2021 - I don't know if that actually happened, but there would probably still be some work for developers to do from that point. Is anyone up-to-date on Pace's actual releases?
> 
> The big announcement I'm looking forward to is VSL, but that one is more complicated than a simple native+iLok update, given the complexity of switching from eLicenser to iLok. I'll be very happy for my 500mb fiber connection whenever it happens, since it's going to involve re-downloading all of BBO (and Smart Orchestra + Expansion + Hits, but those are tiny by comparison).


why do you think you have to re-download it? Maybe I'm wrong, but I understand the protection scheme was always on the player (so just a new synchron and VI code should be requested, no reason to change sample structure). Was it stated by VSL?


----------



## RSK

3CPU said:


> Just read the article about the Synchron player, I would like to see a demonstration when it is released. Thanks for sharing that information.


What article? Do you have a link?


----------



## rnb_2

mixedmoods said:


> Yeah, but this is pretty vague and Kontakt is not even mentioned.
> I was hoping for some rumours at least.


Unfortunately, given their place in the industry, NI runs very much on their own development cycle. There is also a LOT of legacy code in Kontakt which will make creating a native Apple Silicon version non-trivial, on top of all of the other considerations they have when making a new version (and I would expect that Apple Silicon support will come in Kontakt 7, to help recoup development costs).


----------



## rnb_2

Fa said:


> why do you think you have to re-download it? Maybe I'm wrong, but I understand the protection scheme was always on the player (so just a new synchron and VI code should be requested, no reason to change sample structure). Was it stated by VSL?


Yes, @Ben stated it in answer to some questions in the VSL iLok switchover topic.

The preview for the link doesn't show it, but this will take you to the post in question:






VSL Announcement: Moving to iLok Key / Cloud - We are live!


I don't understand, so can someone please explain to me what will happen to my VSL licenses on my Steinberg dongle when Steinberg stops their services in 7 weeks? See above. tl;dr - they're not turning off the server in seven weeks (well, not on purpose at any rate). Your dongle will be...




vi-control.net


----------



## Ben

Native M1 support will come soon after the iLok transition, but parts of the Synchron Player family will already be running as native code in one of the next updates.
The eLicenser - > iLok transition is quite a challenge, but so far it looks good.


----------



## 3CPU

RSK said:


> What article? Do you have a link?


From VSL official website listed under Synchron


----------



## 3CPU

*@ Ben and rnb_2*, 
Thanks for sharing important information


----------



## Virtuoso

dts_marin said:


> Anyone here with both a 16 core MP 2019 and an M1 Max 16" MBP? A colleague of mine needs to update his ageing 2012 MP setup.
> 
> My main concerns with the MBP are graphical performance and thermals. Using Thunderbolt to do everything is a failure IMO and that's why they started adding ports back. I believe the MP is a much more solid platform but at the same time the cost is absurd.
> 
> The requirements are: DP11 master computer with VEP7, 3 x 1080p displays (will be updated to 4K). A fairly big template with lots of busses and reverbs ,a few Omnisphere and Kontakt instances plus some mixing plugins inside DP.
> 
> If someone has been using both systems please let us now how they compare in performance.


I have both - happy to run some comparisons if you have something specific in mind, but there are plenty of benchmarks out there already.

I wouldn't be buying a Mac Pro right now if I were you - unless you need it immediately, I'd recommend waiting for WWDC in June where the new Apple Silicon Mac Pro will probably be announced/launched. I'll be keeping an eye on how the AS MP handles large memory (the current MP will take 1.5TB, while the most memory you can have in an M1 Mac is 64GB, shared with the GPU) and whether it will have PCIe 4 or even 5.


----------



## gzapper

dts_marin said:


> Anyone here with both a 16 core MP 2019 and an M1 Max 16" MBP? A colleague of mine needs to update his ageing 2012 MP setup.
> 
> My main concerns with the MBP are graphical performance and thermals. Using Thunderbolt to do everything is a failure IMO and that's why they started adding ports back. I believe the MP is a much more solid platform but at the same time the cost is absurd.
> 
> The requirements are: DP11 master computer with VEP7, 3 x 1080p displays (will be updated to 4K). A fairly big template with lots of busses and reverbs ,a few Omnisphere and Kontakt instances plus some mixing plugins inside DP.
> 
> If someone has been using both systems please let us now how they compare in performance.


I moved from a 2017 macbook pro to the M1 macbook. I run DP 11, Ableton, Dorico and have a small VEP travelling rig. I run only two monitors but otherwise its similar. DP on the intel with VEP and a big template with 100+ chunks would take 3-5 minutes to load and a minute or two to switch chunks. Only one Omni and one Kontakt and a few fx internal. 

I haven't run a really big show with VEP on the M1 yet, but am working on one show that I built on the intel and just ported onto the M1 and its way faster. In the next week or two I'll get a chance to try some bigger templates, but so far I'm thinking I might not turn my VEP rig on for a while. I did run BBCSO internally plus a couple of Omni and Kontakt, though not with a lot of chunks and still didn't hear the fan go one or have any issues and the M1 ran smoother than the intel with VEP.

The combo of battery/no fan, 64 gig ram and more power are so far pretty great. I just need to really test it with a big DP show to see how far it can go.


----------



## Leandro Marcos

Hello everyone! Happy New Year! I would like to know if anyone of you went with the 8TB storage option in order to have all sample libraries inside the new M1 MacBook Pro, and has already tested some large orchestral projects.
Have you encountered any issues streaming orchestral sample libraries from the internal SSD of the new MacBook Pro (which happened to be the same drive as the OS)? Does it work flawlessly without any performance issues? Or performance-wise using external SSDs is still the way to go? (I know that going for the internal storage upgrade is much more expensive, but the convenience of not having to plug external drives every time when on the go, counterbalances the price difference, at least in my opinion).

Thanks!


----------



## benwiggy

Leandro Marcos said:


> Hello everyone! Happy New Year! I would like to know if anyone of you went with the 8TB storage option in order to have all sample libraries inside the new M1 MacBook Pro, and has already tested some large orchestral projects.
> Have you encountered any issues streaming orchestral sample libraries from the internal SSD of the new MacBook Pro (which happened to be the same drive as the OS)? Does it work flawlessly without any performance issues? Or performance-wise using external SSDs is still the way to go? (I know that going for the internal storage upgrade is much more expensive, but the convenience of not having to plug external drives every time when on the go, counterbalances the price difference, at least in my opinion).
> 
> Thanks!


The internal SSD is faster than any external -- around 6 - 7 GBps. That's as fast as DDR2 RAM. You're not going to get better performance from an external.


----------



## nightjar

Spend the money on the internal.... you'll be happier in the long run.


----------



## Ivan M.

nightjar said:


> Spend the money on the internal.... you'll be happier in the long run.


And don't compromise, because that's wasting money. You either spec the internals to your needs, or decide to go external. For example, the default config 1TB storage probably makes no sense to anyone. Get 4TB or 8TB. And if going external, then just get the 512GB for the OS and the apps. M1 max is also overkill for music, though if you need 64GB then you have to. "Buy nice, or buy twice"


----------



## benwiggy

Ivan M. said:


> And if going external, then just get the 512GB for the OS and the apps.


I wouldn't run the OS from an external. Firstly, because the OS is only c. 12 Gb. Apps might take up a few 10s of Gbs. Even allowing for temp files, swap, etc: on an 8Tb, it's <0.01 of your disk. And why limit yourself to always needing the external flapping around just to boot? To say nothing of problems with the connector/cable or the housing itself. Finally, Apple has made it somewhat difficult to boot to externals on the new Macs.


----------



## Ivan M.

benwiggy said:


> I wouldn't run the OS from an external. Firstly, because the OS is only c. 12 Gb. Apps might take up a few 10s of Gbs. Even allowing for temp files, swap, etc: on an 8Tb, it's <0.01 of your disk. And why limit yourself to always needing the external flapping around just to boot? To say nothing of problems with the connector/cable or the housing itself. Finally, Apple has made it somewhat difficult to boot to externals on the new Macs.


Oh, no, my wording was vague, I meant if you don't want to get adequate internal storage, and decide to keep all you libraries on external drives, then just get 512GB in the macbook, because that's enough for the OS and apps.


----------



## khollister

Leandro Marcos said:


> Hello everyone! Happy New Year! I would like to know if anyone of you went with the 8TB storage option in order to have all sample libraries inside the new M1 MacBook Pro, and has already tested some large orchestral projects.
> Have you encountered any issues streaming orchestral sample libraries from the internal SSD of the new MacBook Pro (which happened to be the same drive as the OS)? Does it work flawlessly without any performance issues? Or performance-wise using external SSDs is still the way to go? (I know that going for the internal storage upgrade is much more expensive, but the convenience of not having to plug external drives every time when on the go, counterbalances the price difference, at least in my opinion).
> 
> Thanks!


I have an 8TB M1 Max 16" with about 6 TB of samples loaded on it. While I do not use large templates and normally don't run projects with hundreds of tracks, I did run some tests with Kontakt, VSL and OPUS after I got it with 300+ tracks. In no case did I ever see the Logic disk performance meter even register anything. For that matter, I never noticed the disk meter in Logic registering anything on my iMac Pro with SATA SSD's connected via TB3. While there are noticeable differences in load times with sample players that can take advantage of the speed (VSL Synchron, OPUS, Garrison CFX/ARIA), I'm pretty convinced that SSD speed isn't a huge driver on voice count.

At any rate, I have not witnessed a single case so far where playing everything from the 16" MBP internal drive has been an issue. I also have an external TB3 2TB SSD with rarely used libraries that I don't absolutely need for travel, but it is nice to be able to make music with just the laptop, MIDI keyboard, MIDI fader controller, iLok and headphones. I don't even need my Apollo Solo if I don't want UAD plugins or a microphone. I use a Caldigit Element TB4 hub as a charger, USB Hub and TB hub. The 60W charging capacity of the Caldigit is adequate unless you want fast charging or are hitting the GPU's heavily (video work). I normally don't use the supplied MagSafe charger, since at home I'm charging via the 100W output from the Pro Display XDR over TB.

The USB 3.1/gen 2 (10 Gbps USB) performance on the current M1/Max/Pro SoC's is somewhat gimped, so I chose to go TB3 for anything performance oriented rather than USB-C.

There is a noticeable load speed difference on the VSL Synchron pianos between the internal SSD and the OWC external TB3 SSD BTW.

Go big or go home!


----------



## Vik

khollister said:


> I did run some tests with Kontakt, VSL and OPUS after I got it with 300+ tracks


Hi Khollister, if this test was similar to a test you did earlier with 300 tracks, those tracks used only an average of less than an average of 0,2 gb/track, and therefore quite different from normal, 'pro' orchestral libraries. I haven't seen all the posts in this thread since then, but have any of you seen reports about any kind of test projects with normal (with automation, x-fades etc) use of such libraries – done without freezing tracks, purging unused samples, using regions with only the same note repeated in, only 2-3 notes in them, or with identical tracks repeated? 

Kontakt is still not Apple Silicon native, which means that we may need to wait in order to see what those M1 chips can deliver in real world situations – but I'm still curious about how they can deliver right now, with normal use of libraries like BS, SCS, SSS, SS1/SSPro, Audiobro MSS or similar. Anyone who have tried that yet?


----------



## khollister

Vik said:


> Hi Khollister, if this test was similar to a test you did earlier with 300 tracks, those tracks used only an average of less than an average of 0,2 gb/track, and therefore quite different from normal, 'pro' orchestral libraries. I haven't seen all the posts in this thread since then, but have any of you seen reports about any kind of test projects with normal (with automation, x-fades etc) use of such libraries – done without freezing tracks, purging unused samples, using regions with only the same note repeated in, only 2-3 notes in them, or with identical tracks repeated?
> 
> Kontakt is still not Apple Silicon native, which means that we may need to wait in order to see what those M1 chips can deliver in real world situations – but I'm still curious about how they can deliver right now, with normal use of libraries like BS, SCS, SSS, SS1/SSPro, Audiobro MSS or similar. Anyone who have tried that yet?


I ran over 300 tracks of HOOPUS, which is native, using 58GB of RAM - no problem, 0 indicated disk activity in Logic.


----------



## rnb_2

Ivan M. said:


> And don't compromise, because that's wasting money. You either spec the internals to your needs, or decide to go external. For example, the default config 1TB storage probably makes no sense to anyone. Get 4TB or 8TB. And if going external, then just get the 512GB for the OS and the apps. M1 max is also overkill for music, though if you need 64GB then you have to. "Buy nice, or buy twice"


I would probably vote for the 1TB as the base, as I have two 500GB M1 Macs, and staying within that limit takes some managing - nothing too bad, but 1TB would eliminate that.


----------



## rnb_2

rnb_2 said:


> I would probably vote for the 1TB as the base, as I have two 500GB M1 Macs, and staying within that limit takes some managing - nothing too bad, but 1TB would eliminate that.


Forgot to mention - I think I've said elsewhere that 2TB is the config that nobody on this board should be thinking about, unless they have a very specific, limited sample set that they're confident won't grow in the next few years (primarily electronic musicians can probably get by with 1-2TB, also).

So, I'd recommend 1TB as a base config for anyone who plans to stick with externals, 4-8TB for anyone who wants to put at least some of their samples on the internal.


----------



## KEM

rnb_2 said:


> Forgot to mention - I think I've said elsewhere that 2TB is the config that nobody on this board should be thinking about, unless they have a very specific, limited sample set that they're confident won't grow in the next few years (primarily electronic musicians can probably get by with 1-2TB, also).
> 
> So, I'd recommend 1TB as a base config for anyone who plans to stick with externals, 4-8TB for anyone who wants to put at least some of their samples on the internal.



I was planning on getting 2tb, I use a VEP template and all my orchestral samples are offloaded onto my PC, my 1tb drive is almost completely filled up on my Mac but there honestly isn’t much else I want or need so 2tb would give me a lot of room but I don’t think I’d fill it up


----------



## rnb_2

KEM said:


> I was planning on getting 2tb, I use a VEP template and all my orchestral samples are offloaded onto my PC, my 1tb drive is almost completely filled up on my Mac but there honestly isn’t much else I want or need so 2tb would give me a lot of room but I don’t think I’d fill it up


VEP is certainly another consideration.


----------



## samphony

Leandro Marcos said:


> 8TB storage option


Yes I did. It is awesome. I have everything i need on one ssd and stuff i seldom use on an external drive.


----------



## Fleer

rnb_2 said:


> I would probably vote for the 1TB as the base, as I have two 500GB M1 Macs, and staying within that limit takes some managing - nothing too bad, but 1TB would eliminate that.


Got only 256GB in my 16GB M1 iMac as I’m using external SSDs with desktops. But I got a 4TB internal SSD in my 64GB M1 Max MacBook Pro for HOOPUS and BBCSO.


----------



## Fleer

khollister said:


> I ran over 300 tracks of HOOPUS, which is native, using 58GB of RAM - no problem, 0 indicated disk activity in Logic.


^^^This


----------



## Vik

khollister said:


> I ran over 300 tracks of HOOPUS, which is native, using 58GB of RAM - no problem, 0 indicated disk activity in Logic.


That's good, and also expected since you did something similar on your older Intel Mac also without seeing any disc activity.

Since you have 6 tb of samples on that internal drive – have you tried to run something that's more demanding for your system than this? As I'm sure you have discovered, I'm seriously interested in how these Macs can run complex stuff that requires a lot of RAM and also taxes the CPU the way orchestral libraries can do when they area dealing with dynamics automation, vibrato automation, multi mics and so on. I'm not in any way asking you to try that (I don't even know what kind of libraries or music you like), but I find it both interesting and kind of surprising that I still haven't come across one single post or YouTube clip which shows how these Macs are handling full orchestral mockups using the best and most popular libraries out there _with the current limitations _(being dependent on Rosetta etc).


Edit: I could make a test project in Logic using at least one of the most popular string libraries (CSS, SCS, SSS, BS etc) if any of you would like to check it on your M1 Pro or Max computer – all you would have to do is to enable/disable tracks in order to see how far you can get without overloading any of the cores. Such a test could probably be done by using only one library, too.


----------



## Fleer

I for one would love to know how far you can go with native plugins like HOOPUS.


----------



## samphony

Vik said:


> all you would have to do is to enable/disable tracks in order to see how far you can get without overloading


Send it 😉


----------



## Vik

samphony said:


> Send it 😉


OK, will try to cook something up tomorrow.


----------



## tmhuud

Vik said:


> OK, will try to cook something up tomorrow.


Thanks for doing this. Very curious as to your results.


----------



## Vik

tmhuud said:


> Thanks for doing this. Very curious as to your results.



Since more than Samphony are interested: which main string libraries do you have? I could use CSS, but other libraries have a wider variety of articulations, which would make it easier to emulate a real life situation with unique samples on each track (and combine this with a high track count).


----------



## tmhuud

Vik said:


> Since more than Samphony are interested: which main string libraries do you have? I could use CSS, but other libraries have a wider variety of articulations, which would make it easier to emulate a real life situation with unique samples on each track (and combine this with a high track count).


I have pretty much everything but I would imagine the biggest challenge is going to be for you to decide on your MIC positions. Spitfire obviously has a lot but OT can be quite taxing on CPU regardless of MIC positions instantiated. AudioBro can be very taxing too. Then of course there is the "Do I load the 'all in ones' or separate instruments"? I don't think any one test will satisfy everyone. What if you choose something that always taxed YOUR system in the past?

Regadless (I'm not picking on the other guys above that did tests but those tests are not really beneficial to us heavy handed orchestral users.) So I'm confident yours will be grounded in more reality that is relevant to those doing large mockups. I will still be running at least one or two slaves for awhile but I sure am excited about getting closer to a one computer solution. One that is portable would be an amazing bonus!


----------



## khollister

Vik said:


> Since more than Samphony are interested: which main string libraries do you have? I could use CSS, but other libraries have a wider variety of articulations, which would make it easier to emulate a real life situation with unique samples on each track (and combine this with a high track count).


FYI, that is pretty much what @jcrosby did with the Kontakt Albion project we tried. It used a different articulation and/or patch per track.


----------



## Vik

khollister said:


> FYI, that is pretty much what @jcrosby did with the Kontakt Albion project we tried. It used a different articulation and/or patch per track.


If all the tracks were different using different samples, that's great – I assumed this was a variation of that YouTube test with only one note being played three times (looped) on each track, but I see now that jcrosby used 5 notes. It's too late to get something now until tomorrow, but my plan is to make a project some dynamics and vibrato automation on all tracks, and use tracks from either CSS or SCS or Berlin Strings which technically (but not musically*) remind of real world tracks – some using only one mic position, while others use two or more (and there will be no identical tracks).


* that would take a lot more time without offering more useful into in this context, so this will be a project that needs to be played back with the main output all the way down!


----------



## 3CPU

khollister said:


> FYI, that is pretty much what @jcrosby did with the Kontakt Albion project we tried. It used a different articulation and/or patch per track.


I like Albion but via Kontakt it could get hairy for larger mock ups beyond 120 tracks, the others such as *HOOPUS*, and VSL *Synchron* are on the money, really like those. And I also like Grandeur and HeavyOCity > Damage, I could do a lot of damage with this film noir, but I intend to use these sparingly. My choice of DAW is *Logic Pro*. I'm weighing in my choices before taking the plunge with Max! So far, so good. 

Audio Interface paired with Logic Pro, I think the* RME Babyface Pro FS* should be fine for my intended use.

Cheers


----------



## samphony

3CPU said:


> Audio Interface paired with Logic Pro, I think the* RME Babyface Pro FS* should be fine for my intended use.


The day the first m1 came out I got myself an RME UFX+ and it works without issues.


----------



## 3CPU

samphony said:


> The day the first m1 came out I got myself an RME UFX+ and it works without issues.


Awesome! The RME UFX+ being that it has multi connectivity including thunderbolt., it is a very very nice AI. The money I save by purchasing the Babyface Pro FS, which ticks all the right boxes for my intended use can go towards other essential needs.

Cheers


----------



## Vik

Apple Silicon native Kontakt 6.7 probably coming in February (screenshot from NIs new forum):








Any news about iLok M1 status?


----------



## mixedmoods

Vik said:


> Apple Silicon native Kontakt 6.7 probably coming in February (screenshot from NIs new forum):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any news about iLok M1 status?


Ohhh – thats great news!
Also its good to see that they don't wait for the 7.0 release to introduce native support as many expected.


----------



## wayne_rowley

mixedmoods said:


> Ohhh – thats great news!
> Also its good to see that they don't wait for the 7.0 release to introduce native support as many expected.


Noted their use of the word 'compatibility'... that doesn't mean AS native! It could just be an officially supported version under Rosetta.

Call me Mr. Suspicious!


----------



## marius_dm




----------



## mixedmoods

wayne_rowley said:


> Noted their use of the word 'compatibility'... that doesn't mean AS native! It could just be an officially supported version under Rosetta.
> 
> Call me Mr. Suspicious!


But right now it's already working well in Rosetta. But yeah – could be. Let's just hope is actual native.


----------



## Vik

mixedmoods said:


> But right now it's already working well in Rosetta. But yeah – could be. Let's just hope is actual native.


Hi, since they wrote that this is about Apple Silicon compatibility and also that Apple Silicon compatibility means 'run natively', there's no need to just hope – it is already confirmed. 

They also wrote "*If some of you would like to join the Beta test for Kontakt and try out the M1 native compatible Kontakt, simply like my post and I'll give your emails to the Kontakt team and they will add you to the current Beta test*" in the same thread. If I already would have bought an Apple Silicon Mac, I certainly would have wanted to check out the AS native version right now.


----------



## khollister

Vik said:


> They also wrote "*If some of you would like to join the Beta test for Kontakt and try out the M1 native compatible Kontakt, simply like my post and I'll give your emails to the Kontakt team and they will add you to the current Beta test*" in the same thread. If I already would have bought an Apple Silicon Mac, I certainly would have wanted to check out the AS native version right now.


Just logged in and liked his post - we'll see if something shows up in my Native Access or I get an email with a download link soon.


----------



## rnb_2

Happy to be wrong about NI waiting for K7 to implement this. I just became only the 10th person to like that post...


----------



## tmhuud

Thanks for keeping us up to date. I figured they were hard at work on going native. Will be interesting to test the difference in performance.


----------



## tmhuud

wayne_rowley said:


> Noted their use of the word 'compatibility'... that doesn't mean AS native! It could just be an officially supported version under Rosetta.
> 
> Call me Mr. Suspicious!


Are you requesting a name change?


----------



## jcrosby

Fingers crossed this translates into noticeable performance gains on M1... I've been holding off on buying a new machine until Kontakt is at least native (and hopefully runs noticeably lighter)... 

Even a 10-15% increase would be improvement enough, but knock on wood we'd see something closer to 20% (or more - but I won't hold my breath per all of the previous discussion about legacy code...)


----------



## tmhuud

jcrosby said:


> Fingers crossed this translates into noticeable performance gains on M1... I've been holding off on buying a new machine until Kontakt is at least native (and hopefully runs noticeably lighter)...
> 
> Even a 10-15% increase would be improvement enough, but knock on wood we'd see something closer to 20% (or more - but I won't hold my breath per all of the previous discussion about legacy code...)


I'm with you. I think I'm going to go for the 16" and hope for the best.


----------



## samphony

wayne_rowley said:


> Noted their use of the word 'compatibility'... that doesn't mean AS native!


Be patient. Join the beta or just wait and see


----------



## wayne_rowley

samphony said:


> Be patient. Just wait and see


I am. Don't get me wrong, I really want them to release the AS native version soon - and preferably as a free update and not a paid-for version 7.


----------



## khollister

khollister said:


> Just logged in and liked his post - we'll see if something shows up in my Native Access or I get an email with a download link soon.


----------



## KEM

If the Mac Pro does happen, and it’s not $20,000 for a decent spec’d version (which all signs are pointing towards it being much better priced), I will absolutely be buying one…


----------



## khollister

KEM said:


> If the Mac Pro does happen, and it’s not $20,000 for a decent spec’d version (which all signs are pointing towards it being much better priced), I will absolutely be buying one…


Who knows what Apple will do, but there are a LOT of potential cost saving opportunities on a AS Mac Pro:
* no PCIe graphics card on the entry model, maybe no PCI gfx required at all with 128 GPU cores
* Maybe no MPX slots at all and fewer PCIe slots.
* the Xeon CPU's are pretty expensive, so possible cost savings there at the customer level
* simplified motherboard
* simplified cooling subsystem
* smaller chassis for smaller PCI slot count


----------



## KEM

khollister said:


> Who knows what Apple will do, but there are a LOT of potential cost saving opportunities on a AS Mac Pro:
> * no PCIe graphics card on the entry model, maybe no PCI gfx required at all with 128 GPU cores
> * Maybe no MPX slots at all and fewer PCIe slots.
> * the Xeon CPU's are pretty expensive, so possible cost savings there at the customer level
> * simplified motherboard
> * simplified cooling subsystem
> * smaller chassis for smaller PCI slot count



Exactly, all the rumors are pointing towards them cutting the price due to all the money they’re saving going to their own proprietary hardware, and let’s also not forget that the current cheese grater model is the first one to start out at its ridiculously high base price, all previous Mac Pro’s were started out about $1,500-2,000 cheaper, and I think Apple will want to go back to that to further distance themselves from the Intel model

I’m sure you’ve also heard the leaks that the next model will also be much smaller and will be close in size to the G4 Cube or like a few Mac Mini’s stacked on top of each other, which could also be another reason they’ll reduce cost

Maybe it’s just wishful thinking but I don’t know, I just really hope it ends up being a reality, I’ll gladly spend $6-8k for a Mac Pro if I can get the duo/quad M1 Max with 64gb of ram and a 2tb drive, cause with the current models prices those specs are about $15k


----------



## khollister

KEM said:


> Exactly, all the rumors are pointing towards them cutting the price due to all the money they’re saving going to their own proprietary hardware, and let’s also not forget that the current cheese grater model is the first one to start out at its ridiculously high base price, all previous Mac Pro’s were started out about $1,500-2,000 cheaper, and I think Apple will want to go back to that to further distance themselves from the Intel model
> 
> I’m sure you’ve also heard the leaks that the next model will also be much smaller and will be close in size to the G4 Cube or like a few Mac Mini’s stacked on top of each other, which could also be another reason they’ll reduce cost
> 
> Maybe it’s just wishful thinking but I don’t know, I just really hope it ends up being a reality, I’ll gladly spend $6-8k for a Mac Pro if I can get the duo/quad M1 Max with 64gb of ram and a 2tb drive, cause with the current models prices those specs are about $15k


I think $6-8k for a "Mac Pro Lite" with 2 x M1Max is very doable as long as Apple is willing to forgo the current price model.


----------



## khollister

jcrosby said:


> Fingers crossed this translates into noticeable performance gains on M1... I've been holding off on buying a new machine until Kontakt is at least native (and hopefully runs noticeably lighter)...
> 
> Even a 10-15% increase would be improvement enough, but knock on wood we'd see something closer to 20% (or more - but I won't hold my breath per all of the previous discussion about legacy code...)


I sent you a couple emails  Buy the machine, you have a pretty low bar at only 20%


----------



## Vik

jcrosby said:


> Even a 10-15% increase would be improvement enough, but knock on wood we'd see something closer to 20%


Sorry, I'm confused!  I apologize if this has been explained already, but: 10-20% better performance than what, exactly? The first M1 Mac? Your current rig? A rig with a native DAW + Rosetta sample players?


----------



## KEM

khollister said:


> I think $6-8k for a "Mac Pro Lite" with 2 x M1Max is very doable as long as Apple is willing to forgo the current price model.



If all the Apple leakers are to be believed it seems pretty likely!! I think that’d be the perfect machine for a lot of people, so I really hope it happens, we’ll know for sure in a few months…


----------



## jcrosby

khollister said:


> I sent you a couple emails  Buy the machine, you have a pretty low bar at only 20%


Got your message, thanks. Hey, better to set a low bar than overshoot! Sounding potentially really good


----------



## jcrosby

Vik said:


> Sorry, I'm confused!  I apologize if this has been explained already, but: 10-20% better performance than what, exactly? The first M1 Mac? Your current rig? A rig with a native DAW + Rosetta sample players?


I made a generic Kontakt test project on my 8 core i9 MB. We were hoping to compare numbers but non-native Kontakt was misbehaving when he tried opening the project.


----------



## Ivan M.

Finally got mine. Loaded some projects that previously made i7 melt and fans to make a lot of noise. A lot of semi-modelled instruments, infinite and sample modelling. I played 2 of those projects in Reaper (under Rosetta) at the same time, and it did it effortlessly.

When running as arm native, Reaper has some automatic bridging for x64 plugins (through a separate process), but this doesn't work well with Kontakt, some instruments played strange notes. However, when running under Rosetta, meaning all plugins within the Reaper process, it works perfectly.

So far a fantastic machine! Need to play with Logic a bit. Can't wait for native Kontakt. Seems that's the only thing missing for me to be able to run the DAW arm native.

edit: 10 core m1 pro, 32GB


----------



## jcrosby

Question for an M1 Max/Pro folks that use Izotope, (and ideally Logic)... I've seen a few conflicting reports so just want to be absolutely sure... 

Are you having any issues running Ozone (Advanced and all modules ideally)? Also Neutron (same... Advanced ideally...)? 

If they're running alright for you do they tend to be fairly light on CPU on M1 Max/Pro vs any previous intel machines you may have used?


----------



## Ivan M.

jcrosby said:


> Question for an M1 Max/Pro folks that use Izotope, (and ideally Logic)... I've seen a few conflicting reports so just want to be absolutely sure...
> 
> Are you having any issues running Ozone (Advanced and all modules ideally)? Also Neutron (same... Advanced ideally...)?
> 
> If they're running alright for you do they tend to be fairly light on CPU on M1 Max/Pro vs any previous intel machines you may have used?


Just tried Ozone (standard), eq, dynamics, imaging, limiting, in Logic native ARM (meaning ozone was running in a separate host process):

One instance:




8 instances:




It is sometimes complaining when trying to open the plugin GUI, but just open it again and it works fine.

Hope it helps.


----------



## Ivan M.

Logic, if run as arm native, doesn't work well with kontakt and semi-modelled libraries. 

This is Logic in ARM mode, running Kontakt with SampleModeling ensemble violins 1, violins 2, violas, cellos, d. basses:




It's falling apart, audio crackling etc. 

However, when run on Rosetta, it's smooth:




BTW, Reaper ARM performed superbly in the similar case: Kontakt + SM strings ensemble, hosted in a separate process. It runs smoothly, CPU wise, however, there are some midi issues when kontakt runs in reapers' hosting process. Reaper rosetta works fine.

Essentially, you have to run in rosetta mode, until kontakt with native support is released.


----------



## Vik

Ivan M. said:


>


If I understand this right, this is both Logic and the library in Rosetta mode? If that's correct: how is this performance compared with the same tracks being played on an Intel Mac?


----------



## Ivan M.

Vik said:


> If I understand this right, this is both Logic and the library in Rosetta mode? If that's correct: how is this performance compared with the same tracks being played on an Intel Mac?


I've moved the drives to my new mac, so can't open the project on the old one. But it wouldn't be a useful information anyway, as it's a 2015 i7, the newer one's are surely performing better. I just remember fans being loud and thermal throttling that made it really hard to work with. I'm yet to hear the fans on the M1, it's completely silent.


----------



## colony nofi

tmhuud said:


> Thanks for keeping us up to date. I figured they were hard at work on going native. Will be interesting to test the difference in performance.


Its coming! All the monies got taken out of the account today, so I'm guessing I'll have it within the week.


----------



## colony nofi

I am also incredibly keen to try this new computer out for another reason. 
There's probably not that many maxmsp users here, but those who do will know how incredibly useful the new MC wrappers are for their plugins. However, things like mc.mixer are incredibly heavy on cpu. It can bring an 8 core macpro trashcan to its knees - above 90% cpu usage of the total it *can* use (which like most audio software is well under 50% due to the real-time nature of audio... and max doesn't seem to use hyper-threading on macs at least)

If the new MBP can handle it, it will make me extremely happy and open up a bunch of possibilities for some installation work coming up - though am also waiting on full m1 support for dante.... ah it never ends right.


----------



## Loïc D

A call to existing M1Pro/M1Max users, in the hindsight:
- Did you find getting 64Gb RAM absolutely necessary?
- Does M1Max make sense for a DAW only scenario?

I’m not yet set on the specifications I’d go for. Lately I tend to opt for M1Max/32Gb/4T…


----------



## davidson

When the hell are we getting an updated mac mini ffs!


----------



## khollister

Loïc D said:


> A call to existing M1Pro/M1Max users, in the hindsight:
> - Did you find getting 64Gb RAM absolutely necessary?
> - Does M1Max make sense for a DAW only scenario?
> 
> I’m not yet set on the specifications I’d go for. Lately I tend to opt for M1Max/32Gb/4T…


64GB? - If you are using large track counts with sampled instruments and not freezing/bouncing a lot, yes. 32GB can work if you either don't run large track counts, use a lot of non-sampled instruments or are comfortable committing frequently (freeze/bounce/render).

The Max doesn't add anything for DAW use other than the ability to get to 64GB. You do get a better cooling system at least in the 16", but it doesn't seem to matter much for music use. It's also not an expensive upgrade, so why not?


----------



## Ivan M.

Loïc D said:


> - Does M1Max make sense for a DAW only scenario?


The single core CPU performance and core count are the same. Max has double the memory bandwidth, but it's only there for graphics intensive purposes.

Ryzen 9 5950X ~ 50GB/s 
i9-12900K ~ 70GB/s 
M1 Pro ~200GB/s
M1 Max ~400Gb/s
gtx 3070 ~400GB/s
gtx 3080 ~700GB/s
of memory bandwidth. Plus, m1 has everything (including memory) on the same die.

M1 Max has additional video encoders/decoders, which is only really needed by video editors.

M1 Max draws more power, and generates more heat. That's why I went with m1 pro in 16" chassis, for best thermal performance, I don't want to hear those fans ever again.


----------



## Vik

khollister said:


> It's also not an expensive upgrade, so why not?


The first problem with this, for many users, is that each if these 'why-nots' are layered into a price, which (especially in some countries with more shipping costs, higher sales tax, bad dollar rate and generally high prices) that a really good computers costs what you make in three months instead of what you make in one month.

The second problem is that nobody has posted anything which documents what kind track counts we can expect from aM1 Max or M1 Pro when using the best libraries (with automation, crossfading, multiple mic positions pr track and all that). Lots Most of us won't spend three months income on checking if somethings works they way we hope it does.


----------



## khollister

Ivan M. said:


> M1 Max draws more power, and generates more heat. That's why I went with m1 pro in 16" chassis, for best thermal performance, I don't want to hear those fans ever again.


I have a Max and have never heard the fans yet either. I believe the M1 series essentially shuts off things it is not using so the extra GPU cores and encoders aren't adding anything measurable to the power draw in our case.


----------



## Dajusch

Got my 16" M1 Pro 32GB yesterday and the first tests to me were quite sobering.
I come from a mid 2014 I7 2.5Ghz Quadcore 15" MBP and Logic 10.5.1 and expected to be blown away.
In Native mode none of my Synth and Plugin heavy Sessions worked without glitches, clicks or pops. 
In Rosetta 2 mode I got some minor weird midi behavior but the sessions did run.
I bounced a Session on both machines: The MBP 2014 took 2min32s, the 2021 MBP took 2min12s.
Which is faster but honestly I expected more. 
In fairness lots of UAD, PluginAlliance and Soundtoys in use. So compatible, but far from optimized.
But even the Native Mode with only native Plugins seemed glitchy to me with weird cpu spikes.

In positive news: No fan was to be heard at any time and the rest of the package is wonderful (screen, battery, ports, keyboard, Look and feel)

So I don't really know where to go from here. 
So for you guys Monterey + Logic 10.7.2 is working fine?


----------



## GingerMaestro

I'm Desperately in need of a new macbook pro and am looking at the max with 64GB Ram. I have a couple of quick quetions if someone has one and knows the answers.

1) I'm using logic with Mojave on my main computer. Are the files cross compatible, or do I need to update my o/s on my main computer ?
2) Is Kontakt working with the M1 yet, either in Native or Rosetta mode ?
3) Are folks generally hav ing big issues using this professionally, or is it stable enough now to use ?
4) Finally once Kontakt is fully working with M1, will all my Kontakt libraries (CSS,Spitfire,OT etc..) Work, or will they need to be updated by the developers ?

Many thanks


----------



## khollister

Dajusch said:


> Got my 16" M1 Pro 32GB yesterday and the first tests to me were quite sobering.
> I come from a mid 2014 I7 2.5Ghz Quadcore 15" MBP and Logic 10.5.1 and expected to be blown away.
> In Native mode none of my Synth and Plugin heavy Sessions worked without glitches, clicks or pops.
> In Rosetta 2 mode I got some minor weird midi behavior but the sessions did run.
> I bounced a Session on both machines: The MBP 2014 took 2min32s, the 2021 MBP took 2min12s.
> Which is faster but honestly I expected more.
> In fairness lots of UAD, PluginAlliance and Soundtoys in use. So compatible, but far from optimized.
> But even the Native Mode with only native Plugins seemed glitchy to me with weird cpu spikes.
> 
> In positive news: No fan was to be heard at any time and the rest of the package is wonderful (screen, battery, ports, keyboard, Look and feel)
> 
> So I don't really know where to go from here.
> So for you guys Monterey + Logic 10.7.2 is working fine?


I am on 12.1 and 10.7.2. Running Logic in native mode with UAD (Apollo X8 and TB satellite), Soundtoys and some PA. Except for Auto-tune and Console, all the UAD stuff is already native.

As far as synths, I use Diva, Repro, Omnisphere, Trilian, Keyscape, Dune3, Obsession, Legend, TAL UNO & J-8, Korg stuff, Pigments and a few others. All are native at this point except most of the Kork ones. Also using VSL Synchron (Rosetta), OPUS (native) and Kontakt (Rosetta, although we are close to a native release). Everything is working smoothly for me except high track count Kontakt. I am also using Liquidsonics (native beta), Eventide (native), Relab (Rosetta), Fabfilter (native), some Waves (native), etc.

PM me and I'll see if I can help. You might send me a project file and I'll try to run it if we overlap on plugins.


----------



## khollister

GingerMaestro said:


> I'm Desperately in need of a new macbook pro and am looking at the max with 64GB Ram. I have a couple of quick quetions if someone has one and knows the answers.
> 
> 1) I'm using logic with Mojave on my main computer. Are the files cross compatible, or do I need to update my o/s on my main computer ?
> 2) Is Kontakt working with the M1 yet, either in Native or Rosetta mode ?
> 3) Are folks generally hav ing big issues using this professionally, or is it stable enough now to use ?
> 4) Finally once Kontakt is fully working with M1, will all my Kontakt libraries (CSS,Spitfire,OT etc..) Work, or will they need to be updated by the developers ?
> 
> Many thanks


Kontakt is currently Rosetta and while it works OK for smaller numbers of tracks, it doesn't scale very well and the load times are hideous. There is a native beta (not public beta) and I think everyone will be pleased when it is released (hint). Kontakt libraries work 100% without change - it's all in the player.

I believe there are some project file backwards compatibility issues with Logic but I'm not certain on the details since I am on BigSur/Monterey only.


----------



## khollister

Dajusch said:


> Got my 16" M1 Pro 32GB yesterday and the first tests to me were quite sobering.
> I come from a mid 2014 I7 2.5Ghz Quadcore 15" MBP and Logic 10.5.1 and expected to be blown away.
> In Native mode none of my Synth and Plugin heavy Sessions worked without glitches, clicks or pops.
> In Rosetta 2 mode I got some minor weird midi behavior but the sessions did run.
> I bounced a Session on both machines: The MBP 2014 took 2min32s, the 2021 MBP took 2min12s.
> Which is faster but honestly I expected more.
> In fairness lots of UAD, PluginAlliance and Soundtoys in use. So compatible, but far from optimized.
> But even the Native Mode with only native Plugins seemed glitchy to me with weird cpu spikes.
> 
> In positive news: No fan was to be heard at any time and the rest of the package is wonderful (screen, battery, ports, keyboard, Look and feel)
> 
> So I don't really know where to go from here.
> So for you guys Monterey + Logic 10.7.2 is working fine?


Did you use the MacOS migration utility or a clean install of everything? If you used the migration utility for anything other than data files, A clean reinstall of the OS and all apps/plugins would be strongly advised. I have seen a few others who got jammed up migrating apps and plugins.


----------



## samphony

Loïc D said:


> A call to existing M1Pro/M1Max users, in the hindsight:
> - Did you find getting 64Gb RAM absolutely necessary?
> - Does M1Max make sense for a DAW only scenario?
> 
> I’m not yet set on the specifications I’d go for. Lately I tend to opt for M1Max/32Gb/4T…


I got the m1max 64gb 8tb ssd. It works very reliable. I had no single crash so far. I don’t miss these unexpected quit times 
I work with Logic Pro and studio one both in native Apple Silicon mode.


----------



## Loïc D

Thanks for your replies.
I’m currently making projects on a MBP late 2013 with 16GB of RAM without freezing many tracks and it’s quite ok to work with it.
I use a fair limited number of libraries at the same time though my template is over 400 tracks (using keyswitches when it’s possible).
My backbone libs are Infinite series, SCS, TSS, Spitfire Percs and Noire.
I kind of feel 64GB is overkill for me, I even hesitate between 2TB(+external SSD) and 4TB.
I’m no pro, so I feel like I can cope with a mid-spec’d MBP 16.


----------



## jcrosby

Curious... Have any of you migrated an old system to your M1 Max/pro machines vs doing a clean install? If so was it a shit show or did the migration more or less work as expected?

I've found Migration Assistant to be kind of a hot mess in recent years. But I also have a *ton* of software and plugins, as well as a lot of customized settings and locations that would be a small nightmare to manually reconfigure....


----------



## Dajusch

khollister said:


> Did you use the MacOS migration utility or a clean install of everything? If you used the migration utility for anything other than data files, A clean reinstall of the OS and all apps/plugins would be strongly advised. I have seen a few others who got jammed up migrating apps and plugins.


Thanks for your answer. This gives me hope. I did a clean install of everything. I thought it might have something to do with the Sessions that came from an older Logic version. But even clean new sessions behave weirdly. If I have a Track selected while playback the last CPU-thread is always maxed out I get clicks and pops the playback keeps breaking up and restarting.
Only way to get rid of this is selecting a track without Input i.e. Drummer.

But I did manage to find the "bad apples". If I deactivate all the Plugin Alliance Plugins the problem almost vanishes.

I don't want to derail this thread, so maybe I'll start a new one. It seems I'm not alone with this problem.





Terrible performance on M1 Pro 16 inch Ma… - Apple Community







origin-discussions2-jp.apple.com


----------



## samphony

jcrosby said:


> Curious... Have any of you migrated an old system to your M1 Max/pro machines vs doing a clean install? If so was it a shit show or did the migration more or less work as expected?
> 
> I've found Migration Assistant to be kind of a hot mess in recent years. But I also have a *ton* of software and plugins, as well as a lot of customized settings and locations that would be a small nightmare to manually reconfigure....


I haven’t done a clean install when transitioning from the Mac Pro 2013 to the M1 eco system. I also had no crashes since the m1max. I was blown away by the fast migration process as well as rosetta 2 when I started using the m1 mac mini as stopgap solution in 2020.


----------



## colony nofi

jcrosby said:


> Curious... Have any of you migrated an old system to your M1 Max/pro machines vs doing a clean install? If so was it a shit show or did the migration more or less work as expected?
> 
> I've found Migration Assistant to be kind of a hot mess in recent years. But I also have a *ton* of software and plugins, as well as a lot of customized settings and locations that would be a small nightmare to manually reconfigure....


With ALL our studio machines, we always do clean installs. We have a whole stepped process written out on exactly what needs to be installed (and tested) in what order.
There is a bunch of custom stuff (tonnes of little macros in nuendo, keyboard maestro, BOME, etc etc) as well as custom libraries which are not all just "plug it in and go" - and as much as I'd love to use Migration Assistant, there's just far too much that could go wrong in a production environment with clients which means its just not worth the effort. Someone taking 2 full days doing an install and stress test is well worth it compared to the time it can take to figure out whats going wrong when it eventually does.

(Also be sure to keep a CLEAN backup image of your installed OS drive once its done! Something goes wrong? Go back to the last image that you know worked in 10mins. I'm yet to test this whole process on M1's, but its great for other machines....)


----------



## khollister

Dajusch said:


> Thanks for your answer. This gives me hope. I did a clean install of everything. I thought it might have something to do with the Sessions that came from an older Logic version. But even clean new sessions behave weirdly. If I have a Track selected while playback the last CPU-thread is always maxed out I get clicks and pops the playback keeps breaking up and restarting.
> Only way to get rid of this is selecting a track without Input i.e. Drummer.
> 
> But I did manage to find the "bad apples". If I deactivate all the Plugin Alliance Plugins the problem almost vanishes.
> 
> I don't want to derail this thread, so maybe I'll start a new one. It seems I'm not alone with this problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrible performance on M1 Pro 16 inch Ma… - Apple Community
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> origin-discussions2-jp.apple.com


First, the Apple Discussions thread you linked is a bit of a red herring as to the reason. Logic 10.7 now runs ALL plugins in separate processes - AUHostingService for native (ARM) plugins and AUHosting CompatibilityService for Intel plugins using Rosetta. The guys thinking they found the smoking gun are misinformed. You will also see the RAM usage for sampled instruments are in those hosting service processes, not Logic itself. I have had 300 track/50GB projects running and Logic shows about 1.5GB and the AUHostingService process showed 50GB.

Second, I use very few PA plugins. I own Knifonium, DS Thorn and Lion. I did briefly try both Knifonium and Thorn (both Rosetta) and the CPU behavior was terrible - basically unusable. Curious what PA effects you were using - I'll try to test them on my system.

I just tried Alchemy routed to my mix bus with PA SPL TwinTube, Audiority Xenoverb & Lexicon PCM Plate as inserts on the bus. Also had a send going to my reverb bus with Pro-R and Cinematic Rooms Pro inserted (both native). My mix bus is routed to Stereo Out with Sonarworks inserted (Rosetta). Also have 2 sends from the mix bus going to the 2 headphone inputs on the Apollo X8, Sonarworks on each as well. I also threw a few more tracks with Keyscape, Sculpture and Bioscape (Kontakt), all record armed to play simultaneously with the Alchemy track selected. The live thread in Logic performance meter hovers around 50% when playing 2 handed chords.

Is your audio interface a UAD? Have you tried just using the internal audio?

I have not had any trouble yet from older Logic projects


----------



## Dajusch

khollister said:


> First, the Apple Discussions thread you linked is a bit of a red herring as to the reason. Logic 10.7 now runs ALL plugins in separate processes - AUHostingService for native (ARM) plugins and AUHosting CompatibilityService for Intel plugins using Rosetta. The guys thinking they found the smoking gun are misinformed. You will also see the RAM usage for sampled instruments are in those hosting service processes, not Lo....


Yey, I think the speculation about the root-cause in the apple discussion is rather pointless, but to me it is good to know, that it is not some kind of freak hardwarebug on my individual MBP.

Yes it's an Apollo 8xp. I made a video of a test session playing about 7 Tracks of UHE Synths and Logic Drums. Just thrown together via the built in Audio interface. And you can hear very loud pops.




Pluginwise there are Fabfilter, Soundtoys randomly thrown on and one PA Plugin.
Buffersize 128. I know I could increase it, but that is not why I bought a powerful machine 
When I removed the PA plugin, the loop would play without pops (CPU Meter still almost maxed out), but as soon, as I live play notes the glitches reappear.
When I stop playback, the livethread hovers around 75%-90%.

Again, thanks for your answers

edit: the embedding doesn't seem to work, so to everyone interested 


Code:


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OJxp8ynml_JCed7ts32SUamMpr5AP4zL/view?usp=sharing


----------



## khollister

Dajusch said:


> Yey, I think the speculation about the root-cause in the apple discussion is rather pointless, but to me it is good to know, that it is not some kind of freak hardwarebug on my individual MBP.
> 
> Yes it's an Apollo 8xp. I made a video of a test session playing about 7 Tracks of UHE Synths and Logic Drums. Just thrown together via the built in Audio interface. And you can hear very loud pops.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pluginwise there are Fabfilter, Soundtoys randomly thrown on and one PA Plugin.
> Buffersize 128. I know I could increase it, but that is not why I bought a powerful machine
> When I removed the PA plugin, the loop would play without pops (CPU Meter still almost maxed out), but as soon, as I live play notes the glitches reappear.
> When I stop playback, the livethread hovers around 75%-90%.
> 
> Again, thanks for your answers
> 
> edit: the embedding doesn't seem to work, so to everyone interested
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OJxp8ynml_JCed7ts32SUamMpr5AP4zL/view?usp=sharing



Can you share the project file so a couple of us can see what happens on our rigs? From what I can see from the small video, the CPU meter in the LCD panel at top isn't close to being maxed out yet there are very loud pops - odd. Have you tried any other DAW? I can try this in S1 and Cubase as well if you get me the project file.

At first glance, I agree this seems really odd.


----------



## gzapper

jcrosby said:


> Curious... Have any of you migrated an old system to your M1 Max/pro machines vs doing a clean install? If so was it a shit show or did the migration more or less work as expected?
> 
> I've found Migration Assistant to be kind of a hot mess in recent years. But I also have a *ton* of software and plugins, as well as a lot of customized settings and locations that would be a small nightmare to manually reconfigure....


I'm the poster boy for migration assistant. I've been using it since OS9, which likely means I've bits of ppc code and preferences hiding away on my system. 

When I got the M1 Macbook I told myself I was going to do a clean install, but then the deadlines were still there so I thought, what the heck, I could always wipe it and try a clean install if its a mess.

Instead its been fine, some authorizations copied, I've still some plugs that really should be deleted from my system (cough, pluggo, cough). But so far its been running solid. I haven't even worried about what's silicon or rosetta yet, since I assume most of my plugs are rosetta and some like Kontakt, will be for a while. It just works and is way more powerful and way more quiet.


----------



## jcrosby

gzapper said:


> I'm the poster boy for migration assistant. I've been using it since OS9, which likely means I've bits of ppc code and preferences hiding away on my system.
> 
> When I got the M1 Macbook I told myself I was going to do a clean install, but then the deadlines were still there so I thought, what the heck, I could always wipe it and try a clean install if its a mess.
> 
> Instead its been fine, some authorizations copied, I've still some plugs that really should be deleted from my system (cough, pluggo, cough). But so far its been running solid. I haven't even worried about what's silicon or rosetta yet, since I assume most of my plugs are rosetta and some like Kontakt, will be for a while. It just works and is way more powerful and way more quiet.


That's the same dilemma I have... I just don't have the luxury of the time involved in doing a clean install between briefs. I've already had to do this twice on my last two machines, it's solid 5-7 day process for me just getting things re-auhorized, moving things like customized support files with settings and presets, making a bunch of tweaks to system preferences, doing some initial testing, etc.

That's only phase one, as there are often at least a few snags you discover that tend to result in having to email developers to log bugs or go back and forth fixing issues, etc... All in all, last time it was a week of being able to do very little other than the odd plugin test here and there on the fly... add in that narrow 2 week return window and M.A. is the ideal scenario..

So basically if Migration Assistant seems to be working then that's the way for me to fly... (Which ironically is why I posted this question)... the last time I had to do a clean install was when I got my Catalina machine. At the time Catalina had a M.A. bug where files wouldn't transfer. the issue was confirmed shortly after by Bombich in one of their release notes... Apparently Apple dropped the ball and some people experienced issues with M.A. during an early point update...

Anyway good to hear!

My only other thought about this is how APFS volumes transfer, and if that should happen all in one go, or I should get the OS volume up and running, then clone my project and sample volumes once I have the kinks worked out. (Not even sure if this is possible as I've not had to use M.A. under APFS before...


----------



## khollister

Dajusch said:


> Yey, I think the speculation about the root-cause in the apple discussion is rather pointless, but to me it is good to know, that it is not some kind of freak hardwarebug on my individual MBP.
> 
> Yes it's an Apollo 8xp. I made a video of a test session playing about 7 Tracks of UHE Synths and Logic Drums. Just thrown together via the built in Audio interface. And you can hear very loud pops.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pluginwise there are Fabfilter, Soundtoys randomly thrown on and one PA Plugin.
> Buffersize 128. I know I could increase it, but that is not why I bought a powerful machine
> When I removed the PA plugin, the loop would play without pops (CPU Meter still almost maxed out), but as soon, as I live play notes the glitches reappear.
> When I stop playback, the livethread hovers around 75%-90%.
> 
> Again, thanks for your answers



So I threw together this test project which is totally devoid of any musical benefit. It has 8 tracks (3 Diva, 1 Repro, 4 Omnisphere) with a bunch of random Fabfilter, Eventide, Soundtoys, Lexicon and Relab plugs on the tracks as well as on the mix bus. Assuming you have all this stuff, try this and see what happens on your system. This plays with the "Jump Brass" track armed here.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/i43ixcbzga33bnk/AABopp23AUdbW_1fnupC3Q4Xa?dl=0
I think I have the Dropbox permissions correct - I don't do this very often.


----------



## Dajusch

khollister said:


> So I threw together this test project which is totally devoid of any musical benefit. It has 8 tracks (3 Diva, 1 Repro, 4 Omnisphere) with a bunch of random Fabfilter, Eventide, Soundtoys, Lexicon and Relab plugs on the tracks as well as on the mix bus. Assuming you have all this stuff, try this and see what happens on your system. This plays with the "Jump Brass" track armed here.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/i43ixcbzga33bnk/AABopp23AUdbW_1fnupC3Q4Xa?dl=0
> I think I have the Dropbox permissions correct - I don't do this very often.


Thanks a lot. Unfortunately I'm missing too many Plugins to test it properly. So I made the most simple Session. 
2 Tracks: Logic Synth and Logic Drum Machine.
2 3.Party Plugins: Devil-Loc and Echoboy

There is no playback possible without crackle Pops and artefacts.
Video and Session here.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/12zq2R48XNpuA5JzRUIaZDjh0jklG22hT?usp=sharing
Then just for fun, I even removed the Synth and the third party Plugins. 
So just one Drummachine Track. Still glitches with randomly restarting the Loop and crackling.


----------



## khollister

Dajusch said:


> Thanks a lot. Unfortunately I'm missing too many Plugins to test it properly. So I made the most simple Session.
> 2 Tracks: Logic Synth and Logic Drum Machine.
> 2 3.Party Plugins: Devil-Loc and Echoboy
> 
> There is no playback possible without crackle Pops and artefacts.
> Video and Session here.
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/12zq2R48XNpuA5JzRUIaZDjh0jklG22hT?usp=sharing
> Then just for fun, I even removed the Synth and the third party Plugins.
> So just one Drummachine Track. Still glitches with randomly restarting the Loop and crackling.


I’ll try it later this evening and let you know


----------



## khollister

Dajusch said:


> Thanks a lot. Unfortunately I'm missing too many Plugins to test it properly. So I made the most simple Session.
> 2 Tracks: Logic Synth and Logic Drum Machine.
> 2 3.Party Plugins: Devil-Loc and Echoboy
> 
> There is no playback possible without crackle Pops and artefacts.
> Video and Session here.
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/12zq2R48XNpuA5JzRUIaZDjh0jklG22hT?usp=sharing
> Then just for fun, I even removed the Synth and the third party Plugins.
> So just one Drummachine Track. Still glitches with randomly restarting the Loop and crackling.


OK - enabled both the Sculpture track and the Drum track with all plugins enabled on both tracks as well as the delay bus. Played fine with barely anything registering on the Logic perf meter. UA Apollo X8 @ 128 buffer with drum track record enabled.

Since you can't even play the Logic-only stuff, I would think it has to be one of 2 things:

1) Something is ranged in the Core Audio portions of MacOS
2) Logic Pro is somehow corrupted

Easy thing to try is delete Logic, empty trash and reinstall LPX from App Store.

I assume this happens with both the UA Apollo as well as the internal audio?

Here is my perf monitor at idle


----------



## khollister

Perf mon during playback ...


----------



## khollister

Process buffer= Large
Processing Threads = Automatic (8 perf cores only)
Multithreading = Playback & Live Tracks
Summing = 64 bit


----------



## Dajusch

khollister said:


> Since you can't even play the Logic-only stuff, I would think it has to be one of 2 things:
> 
> 1) Something is ranged in the Core Audio portions of MacOS
> 
> 
> I assume this happens with both the UA Apollo as well as the internal audio?


If it wasn't stealing my working hours this would be highly interesting investigation.
A friend of mine with similarly specked MBP M1 Pro also did not have issues as severe as mine, and Ableton seems to work flawlessly

1) seems very probable, since I noticed that other audio e.g. youtube gets sometimes distorted/crackled too, when Logic is opened.

It wasn't as bad using the internal audio, but still not usable.

Until now I had the exact same experience as this fella (and some others in the thread) 3 months ago.



I will give reinstalling Logic a go and see what happens.
Thank you very much for your time


----------



## khollister

Dajusch said:


> If it wasn't stealing my working hours this would be highly interesting investigation.
> A friend of mine with similarly specked MBP M1 Pro also did not have issues as severe as mine, and Ableton seems to work flawlessly
> 
> 1) seems very probable, since I noticed that other audio e.g. youtube gets sometimes distorted/crackled too, when Logic is opened.
> 
> It wasn't as bad using the internal audio, but still not usable.
> 
> Until now I had the exact same experience as this fella (and some others in the thread) 3 months ago.
> 
> 
> 
> I will give reinstalling Logic a go and see what happens.
> Thank you very much for your time



It's an interesting problem - I'm retired and don't have any deadlines anymore so I can afford to get distracted by interesting stuff 

BTW - my little 13" M1 MBP plays this just fine as well.


----------



## Ivan M.

After a while of producing with it, I don't see that snappiness people talk about. Stuff is still somewhat slow, and I get the occasional beach ball. Clicks and pops in Logic although only using a pad and a kick, until computer reset. I know it's faster, but it doesn't feel like a big improvement from my 2015 i7 macbook. It does handle semi modelled libraries better (CPU intensive), but the 2015 mac could do the same with a slightly larger buffer. The good thing is that it's completely silent (one of the biggest reasons why I bought it) and the battery is good. It's not that big of an improvement as the benchmarks and reviews make it to be, it's over-hyped, at least for music.

Also, I'm really starting to hate this Logic thing, but that's off topic. For some reason, I'm considering going back to the PC, even if it's noisier, not sure yet.


----------



## khollister

Ivan M. said:


> After a while of producing with it, I don't see that snappiness people talk about. Stuff is still somewhat slow, and I get the occasional beach ball. Clicks and pops in Logic although only using a pad and a kick, until computer reset. I know it's faster, but it doesn't feel like a big improvement from my 2015 i7 macbook. It does handle semi modelled libraries better (CPU intensive), but the 2015 mac could do the same with a slightly larger buffer. The good thing is that it's completely silent (one of the biggest reasons why I bought it) and the battery is good. It's not that big of an improvement as the benchmarks and reviews make it to be, it's over-hyped, at least for music.
> 
> Also, I'm really starting to hate this Logic thing, but that's off topic. For some reason, I'm considering going back to the PC, even if it's noisier, not sure yet.


It is really interesting that some are having problems with just a few tracks cratering Logic while others aren't, e.g. @Dajusch was having trouble with a single drum track that I could play with the CPU meters in Logic barely registering anything. I had a 2017 i7 MBP, and this thing kicks it to the curb, so something is amiss with yours (and I'm pretty sure it is SW not HW).


----------



## rnb_2

khollister said:


> It is really interesting that some are having problems with just a few tracks cratering Logic while others aren't, e.g. @Dajusch was having trouble with a single drum track that I could play with the CPU meters in Logic barely registering anything. I had a 2017 i7 MBP, and this thing kicks it to the curb, so something is amiss with yours (and I'm pretty sure it is SW not HW).


Have to agree. It might be painful in the short term, but I’d honestly start over from scratch and build everything back up, piece by piece, testing along the way. Something has gone sideways in software.


----------



## doublejo

Hey guys, i am new here, but i have been watching this thread for a while. I was wondering if anyone with a m1 pro with only 16 gb could try to use a lot of orchestral instruments to see what happens, if the macbook slow down for example


----------



## Al Maurice

doublejo said:


> Hey guys, i am new here, but i have been watching this thread for a while. I was wondering if anyone with a m1 pro with only 16 gb could try to use a lot of orchestral instruments to see what happens, if the macbook slow down for example


There are threads already on VI-Control which already cover this issue, for instance: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/apple-m1-macs-with-16gb-ram-handling-anyone-tried.107438/

If you search '16GB Mac' you probably find several, including one where such a test has been completed.


----------



## rnb_2

doublejo said:


> Hey guys, i am new here, but i have been watching this thread for a while. I was wondering if anyone with a m1 pro with only 16 gb could try to use a lot of orchestral instruments to see what happens, if the macbook slow down for example


I don't think you'll find many people here with an M1 Pro with only 16GB, and anyone that does have that configuration is likely not using a a lot of orchestral instruments.

I wouldn't advise spending that much on a MacBook Pro and only getting 16GB if working with orchestral instruments is an important part of what you want to do with it. You'd probably be better served going with an M1 MacBook Air with 16GB and saving a few hundred dollars, as the RAM restriction is going to limit the performance benefit of the M1 Pro over the M1. The M1 is still no slouch, performance-wise - each core is similar in performance to the cores on the M1 Pro/Max, there just aren't as many of them.


----------



## doublejo

Al Maurice said:


> There are threads already on VI-Control which already cover this issue, for instance: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/apple-m1-macs-with-16gb-ram-handling-anyone-tried.107438/
> 
> If you search '16GB Mac' you probably find several, including one where such a test has been completed.


I am talking about the m1 pro, not the m1, i wanted to see how the new ssd handle the memory swap and if it will slow down the computer, because i have seen a lot video showing how well the m1 pro handle it with other application.


----------



## doublejo

rnb_2 said:


> I don't think you'll find many people here with an M1 Pro with only 16GB, and anyone that does have that configuration is likely not using a a lot of orchestral instruments.
> 
> I wouldn't advise spending that much on a MacBook Pro and only getting 16GB if working with orchestral instruments is an important part of what you want to do with it. You'd probably be better served going with an M1 MacBook Air with 16GB and saving a few hundred dollars, as the RAM restriction is going to limit the performance benefit of the M1 Pro over the M1. The M1 is still no slouch, performance-wise - each core is similar in performance to the cores on the M1 Pro/Max, there just aren't as many of them.


Yeah, could be nice to find someone with this configuration

I had the macbook air, but it had only 2 ports and the dongle thing was annoying + the ports for the m1 was not that good, plenty of issues with some dongle, because it did not have enough power to handle too much things at the same time. With an audio interface, an external screen, and an external ssd, the macbook air was struggling. So for me the macbook air is not even an option. 

" The M1 is still no slouch, performance-wise - each core is similar in performance to the cores on the M1 Pro/Max, there just aren't as many of them." It's not correct, the M1 pro base model for example has the same number of core as the m1, but the m1 pro has 6 performance cores and 4 power-efficiency cores. The m1 pro with 10 core has 8 performances cores and only 2 power-efficiency cores. So it's not only about numbers.

"as the RAM restriction is going to limit the performance benefit of the M1 Pro over the M1" Yeah this is exactly why i am asking. Do we have something that shows that the m1 pro with 16 gb will be restricted, with a fast ssd, that is as fast as a ddr2 ram. I would love to see a comparison, for memory swap between a m1 air and a m1 pro 14 or 16 incH. Because for now i have seen a lot of videos showing how well the 16 gb m1 pro handles memory swap, but i have never seen it for orchestral instruments


----------



## Al Maurice

Unfortunately with these Mac books what you see is what you get.

So if you under spec your machine, there's not much you can do about it, apart from go through the expense of replacing it with another one.

Thus as many have found, even though the Macs now have the ability to go the extra mile memory wise, you soon stress out the machine if you use lots of orchestral samples.

It makes no difference if you have just the M1, Pro or Max.

In fact most benefits for Pro and Max seem to be gained for video, mostly rendering of Prores.

Leaving many here purchasing either a pro or max just to put in more memory from the get go.

In other words choose your base model wisely.


----------



## rnb_2

doublejo said:


> Yeah, could be nice to find someone with this configuration
> 
> I had the macbook air, but it had only 2 ports and the dongle thing was annoying + the ports for the m1 was not that good, plenty of issues with some dongle, because it did not have enough power to handle too much things at the same time. With an audio interface, an external screen, and an external ssd, the macbook air was struggling. So for me the macbook air is not even an option.
> 
> " The M1 is still no slouch, performance-wise - each core is similar in performance to the cores on the M1 Pro/Max, there just aren't as many of them." It's not correct, the M1 pro base model for example has the same number of core as the m1, but the m1 pro has 6 performance cores and 4 power-efficiency cores. The m1 pro with 10 core has 8 performances cores and only 2 power-efficiency cores. So it's not only about numbers.
> 
> "as the RAM restriction is going to limit the performance benefit of the M1 Pro over the M1" Yeah this is exactly why i am asking. Do we have something that shows that the m1 pro with 16 gb will be restricted, with a fast ssd, that is as fast as a ddr2 ram. I would love to see a comparison, for memory swap between a m1 air and a m1 pro 14 or 16 incH. Because for now i have seen a lot of videos showing how well the 16 gb m1 pro handles memory swap, but i have never seen it for orchestral instruments


I have an M1 MacBook Air connected to 5 external SSDs (7TB total), a 27" 4k display, 3 MIDI devices, an audio interface, 2 dongles, a microphone, and a Wacom tablet. Absolutely no issues - you just need to get a decent Thunderbolt dock/hub (or two). The M1 Pro only adds one more Thunderbolt port, so it's not going to improve things that much on the connectivity front - you'll still need a Thunderbolt dock for most setups.


----------



## doublejo

Al Maurice said:


> Unfortunately with these Mac books what you see is what you get.
> 
> So if you under spec your machine, there's not much you can do about it, apart from go through the expense of replacing it with another one.
> 
> Thus as many have found, even though the Macs now have the ability to go the extra mile memory wise, you soon stress out the machine if you use lots of orchestral samples.
> 
> It makes no difference if you have just the M1, Pro or Max.
> 
> In fact most benefits for Pro and Max seem to be gained for video, mostly rendering of Prores.
> 
> Leaving many here purchasing either a pro or max just to put in more memory from the get go.
> 
> In other words choose your base model wisely.


Intel macbook could not do what m1 macbook could do when it's about memory swap, but m1 pro is even better with there new faster ssd, the applications don't slow down. But for the orchestral instument world i would like to see how good it is. I have seen an impressive video with 30 gb memory swap for the m1 , but would like to see a test with the m1 pro. If the memory swap is really good i don't know maybe getting the 16 gb could be nice to start in the orchestral instruments world. The m1 max is not worth it even for video editor, the only reason is for gaming and gaming on mac... But yeah having to get the m1 max to get 64 gb of ram is expensive...


----------



## doublejo

rnb_2 said:


> I have an M1 MacBook Air connected to 5 external SSDs (7TB total), a 27" 4k display, 3 MIDI devices, an audio interface, 2 dongles, a microphone, and a Wacom tablet. Absolutely no issues - you just need to get a decent Thunderbolt dock/hub (or two). The M1 Pro only adds one more Thunderbolt port, so it's not going to improve things that much on the connectivity front - you'll still need a Thunderbolt dock for most setups.


I am pretty sure your main dongle is a dongle that uses a power supply i bought one , and yeah it fixed my issues, but it was almost like a desktop with all those cables, dongles. And i am not the only one having those issues, my friend bought the same m1, and sometimes, when he was closing his macbook connected to an external monitor he had some weird things happening, also one of my dongle died, because it was getting really hot, same thing for my friend. You can look for it on youtube, or on google, you will see a lot of thread about that. And before the m1 air, i had an intel 16 inch macbook pro and never ever had those issues

edit, did not answer to the last sentence : 

So it has more than one more thunderbolt port, it has hdmi port, magsafe and sd card, i will not need any dongle with the m1 pro, if it needs to charge i will just use the magsafe, if i am using an external monitor, i can use hdmi or connect the m1 pro with a tb3 cable, so it charges and uses the monitor. In the bast case It leaves me with 3 ports, one for my external ssd, one for my audio interface, i have still l more ports if i want to use my midi keyboards for example. I don't really have to connect a dongle, while with the m1 air i always had to connect it to a big boy, and ofc if you are like me, and you wanted to use an thunderbolt uad interface + a fast external m.2 ssd with a thunderbolt enclosure, forget about it for the m1 air, unless you have a big thunderbolt dongle with a power supply. The m1 pro is amazing for how much ports you get, it's the first reason to me to get it.


----------



## rnb_2

doublejo said:


> The m1 max is not worth it even for video editor, the only reason is for gaming and gaming on mac...


I'm dying to see the people that are dropping $3-5k on a MacBook Pro to game with it.


----------



## doublejo

rnb_2 said:


> I'm dying to see the people that are dropping $3-5k on a MacBook Pro to game with it.


Haha, maybe one day we will see more devs working on games optimized for macbook pro , with the m1 max being that much powerful (WoW is optimized for example and has great performance from what i have seen) . The m1 max could be a really great all in one laptop. The work is more about software than hardware now.


----------



## 3CPU

rnb_2 said:


> I'm dying to see the people that are dropping $3-5k on a MacBook Pro to game with it.


The piano roll looks similar to Tetris, grab the eraser, speed up the tempo and whoa. That's about as close I get to gaming on Mac.


----------



## Prof_lofi

Hi everyone - I’m very close to purchasing the 14in MacBook Pro 32gb 16 core gpu 2tb system. I’m pretty solid on these specs as I don’t use a ton of VIs and my video editing work is purely for my own purposes and less than 10% of what I do as an artist, so I think the Max configuration would be false economy for me.

What I’m unsure about is the 14in vs 16in wrt fan noise and/or throttling. I’ve read/watched tons but if anyone has purchased a similar spec I’d love to hear about your experience.

While the 16in is lovely, I don’t perform live with a laptop nearly as often as I used to. Nowadays it’s mostly docked under my desk. Although I wish there was a 15in model, I think I would be able to deal with the smaller screen on the occasions that I do perform with it.

And I know the 16in will intrinsically be cooler/quieter and has better battery life - but by how much that would matter to me, I’m finding it impossible to judge.

Many thanks!

Edit: this might have just swung me to the 16in (from minute 6:00):


----------



## doublejo

Prof_lofi said:


> Hi everyone - I’m very close to purchasing the 14in MacBook Pro 32gb 16 core gpu 2tb system. I’m pretty solid on these specs as I don’t use a ton of VIs and my video editing work is purely for my own purposes and less than 10% of what I do as an artist, so I think the Max configuration would be false economy for me.
> 
> What I’m unsure about is the 14in vs 16in wrt fan noise and/or throttling. I’ve read/watched tons but if anyone has purchased a similar spec I’d love to hear about your experience.
> 
> While the 16in is lovely, I don’t perform live with a laptop nearly as often as I used to. Nowadays it’s mostly docked under my desk. Although I wish there was a 15in model, I think I would be able to deal with the smaller screen on the occasions that I do perform with it.
> 
> And I know the 16in will intrinsically be cooler/quieter and has better battery life - but by how much that would matter to me, I’m finding it impossible to judge.
> 
> Many thanks!


So to answer you about the 14 in fan noise, from what i have seen, what makes the fan noise in most case is the gpu, because the 14 in has already a better cooling than the macbook 13 in or macbook air, and it's more than enough for cpu. When it's about cpu stress with benchmark for example, you never hear the fan at all. 

Your config is really nice for your needs, and you will not have any issues when it's about music for fan noise. Also you could save 500 bucks by going for the base model and get more ram and more storage and not losing that much performance. But if you have the money want to get it why not.


----------



## Prof_lofi

doublejo said:


> So to answer you about the 14 in fan noise, from what i have seen, what makes the fan noise in most case is the gpu, because the 14 in has already a better cooling than the macbook 13 in or macbook air, and it's more than enough for cpu. When it's about cpu stress with benchmark for example, you never hear the fan at all.
> 
> Your config is really nice for your needs, and you will not have any issues when it's about music for fan noise. Also you could save 500 bucks by going for the base model and get more ram and more storage and not losing that much performance. But if you have the money want to get it why not.


Thanks - that's what I needed to hear.


----------



## mixedmoods

Just to add on to this – as I went for the same configuration (except I only got 1TB SDD as I use external drives for sample libraries).
I am using it since December and never heard any fan noise while working on compositions. Even under higher CPU pressure the fan stayed silent and the MacBook didnt even got warm. (The only occasion when they turned on was when I was doing 3D renderings in Cinema 4D.)
In terms of RAM: The 32 GB max out pretty fast using a few bigger Sample Libraries but I never felt a performance drop caused by this so far. The internal SSD is so fast it almost seems to work as "additional RAM" in a way.

The only drawback for me at the moment is the lack of M1 optimized software.
I am using Studio One 5.5 in native mode running most of the plugins and sample players (Kontakt, Synchron, ...) in their AU Rosetta mode version. It works ok – but I don't feel any significant perfomance gain compared to my previous INTEL Mac Mini so far. Sometimes I even get more drop-outs and random CPU spikes than before. But I am confident that this will change dramatically once they all support M1 natively.


----------



## doublejo

mixedmoods said:


> Just to add on to this – as I went for the same configuration (except I only got 1TB SDD as I use external drives for sample libraries).
> I am using it since December and never heard any fan noise while working on compositions. Even under higher CPU pressure the fan stayed silent and the MacBook didnt even got warm. (The only occasion when they turned on was when I was doing 3D renderings in Cinema 4D.)
> In terms of RAM: The 32 GB max out pretty fast using a few bigger Sample Libraries but I never felt a performance drop caused by this so far. The internal SSD is so fast it almost seems to work as "additional RAM" in a way.
> 
> The only drawback for me at the moment is the lack of M1 optimized software.
> I am using Studio One 5.5 in native mode running most of the plugins and sample players (Kontakt, Synchron, ...) in their AU Rosetta mode version. It works ok – but I don't feel any significant perfomance gain compared to my previous INTEL Mac Mini so far. Sometimes I even get more drop-outs and random CPU spikes than before. But I am confident that this will change dramatically once they are all support M1 natively.


Wow, this is what i needed to hear, thank you so much


----------



## RSK

rnb_2 said:


> The M1 Pro only adds one more Thunderbolt port....


Yes and no. It also adds a dedicated power connector, so you don't have to eat up a Thunderbolt port just for that.


----------



## Ivan M.

mixedmoods said:


> The internal SSD is so fast it almost seems to work as "additional RAM" in a way.


A naive comparison: 

DDR2 6.4 GB/s
M1 SSD speed 7.4 GB/s
DDR3 ~8.5 GB/s

However, ddr wins latency wise. At some point we won't even need RAM memory, we will just get "memory" (storage + runtime) xD


----------



## RSK

rnb_2 said:


> I'm dying to see the people that are dropping $3-5k on a MacBook Pro to game with it.


My gamer son found out I was getting a Max with 64G and is begging me to let him play with it a few days before I start using it. 

Yeah right.


----------



## JyTy

Oh Man, I just got the M1 Pro one and it is such a beast! I'm actually excited to sit behind the computer and work again... A 150+ tracks project that was pushing my PC build with two Intel six cores quite hard doesn't even turn on the cooling on the new one 

Omni and all the Other synths work like a breeze, Cubase still crashes from time to time, Studio One performance is super solid (although I'm having some issues with VEPRO plugins in there can't see the VST3 version, in Cubase all good ...)

Those machines are another level. Apple really did good this time around!


----------



## Prof_lofi

Just purchased the M1 pro 14in with the spec above...let the monthly payments commence!


----------



## rnb_2

RSK said:


> Yes and no. It also adds a dedicated power connector, so you don't have to eat up a Thunderbolt port just for that.


This is true if you're working with a minimal mobile rig, but my Air is currently connected to two different Thunderbolt devices that can both charge and provide data over one cable. Since you're likely to need USB-A ports most of the time (or just more ports, in general), a hub that can charge and provide those ports is nice to have.


----------



## SomeGuy

Forgive me if this has already been answered, but I didn't find it skimming. Is there a sweet spot configuration for those of us who want to do "semi-pro" work with large orchestral libraries but don't have the professional budget? If you had to choose between more ram or bigger internal HD, which would you choose? Wondering if its true that the HD is so fast that you might be ok going with less RAM?


----------



## SomeGuy

Prof_lofi said:


> Just purchased the M1 pro 14in with the spec above...let the monthly payments commence!


maybe I'm dense, but I don't see any specs?


----------



## rnb_2

SomeGuy said:


> maybe I'm dense, but I don't see any specs?


Here you go:


Prof_lofi said:


> Hi everyone - I’m very close to purchasing the 14in MacBook Pro 32gb 16 core gpu 2tb system. I’m pretty solid on these specs as I don’t use a ton of VIs and my video editing work is purely for my own purposes and less than 10% of what I do as an artist, so I think the Max configuration would be false economy for me.


I'd say that's roughly the config you're looking for, though you could likely get by with 1TB internal storage in most cases (saving $400US), and you could go with the 10-core CPU/14-core GPU to save another $100 and probably not notice. Definitely get more RAM rather than more storage, as samples can always by put on an external USB-C or Thunderbolt SSD. The storage is very fast, but there's no guarantee that everything will behave predictably if you ask it to act like RAM as a matter of course.

So, the base config I'd be looking at for orchestral work would be 14" 10-core CPU/14-Core GPU M1 Pro, 32GB RAM, 1TB storage, then spec up from there as your budget allows. Remember that you'll probably want a Thunderbolt dock/hub of some sort to give you USB-A ports, some sort of video out (Mini DisplayPort, DisplayPort, HDMI), and maybe charging over Thunderbolt if you want to live the "unplug one cable and take the laptop with you" lifestyle, plus a decent USB-C (~$30) or Thunderbolt ($80) external NVMe enclosure + 1-4TB NVMe SSD (you should be able to get a drive for <$100/TB).


----------



## Cdnalsi

Hi guys, I want to ask if anyone knows what's happening with my RAM, I'm getting quite confused with the readings I'm getting for my system (16" M1 Pro MBP (10CPU/16GPU) 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD).

I've created a template in Logic Pro for new project: band (Spitfire JB Piano, Sampler PSF Rhodes, Sforzando Bass, Drums) + synths (mostly u-he Podolski, ZebraCM, Zebralette, Triple Cheese) + orchestra (Spitfire BBC Symphony Orchestra Core separate articulations). Running all native Apple Silicon plugins, nothing Intel based.

I've loaded ~138 MIDI tracks (5 band, 5 synths, 31 woodwinds, 42 brass, 2 keys, 23 percussion, 30 strings) and some audio tracks, totalling at 158 tracks.

Having all the tracks instruments loaded into RAM and ready to play on live channels, iStat Menus shows this:





Now I don't quite understand how the Swap Memory system works: Logic Pro is eating up 98,8% of all my RAM and it needed another 4,15GB which it swapped from the SSD?

If that's the case, does that mean that theoretically I can just keep on loading the RAM and it'll swap until my 1TB SSD is depleted?

And how come there's only 60% pressure against the RAM? Is it because of the compressed ~8GB?

If anyone can please clarify how this works it would be very much appreciated!

(Bytheway, I'm loving the performance, my 8 high performance CPU cores aren't even phased by all this activity, hovering at ~35-45% of load, and all of this at temperatures UNDER 50 degrees Celsius! Fan's don't even turn on. While keeping live tracks record enabled at the same time? Amazing! This means I can even mix and master in this template on top of MIDI sequencing! This would have fried my old Intel i9 Macbook Pro a long time ago at 100 degrees under any kind of load.)

Thanks in advance for any input!


----------



## doublejo

Cdnalsi said:


> Hi guys, I want to ask if anyone knows what's happening with my RAM, I'm getting quite confused with the readings I'm getting for my system (16" M1 Pro MBP (10CPU/16GPU) 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD).
> 
> I've created a template in Logic Pro for new project: band (Spitfire JB Piano, Sampler PSF Rhodes, Sforzando Bass, Drums) + synths (mostly u-he Podolski, ZebraCM, Zebralette, Triple Cheese) + orchestra (Spitfire BBC Symphony Orchestra Core separate articulations). Running all native Apple Silicon plugins, nothing Intel based.
> 
> I've loaded ~138 MIDI tracks (5 band, 5 synths, 31 woodwinds, 42 brass, 2 keys, 23 percussion, 30 strings) and some audio tracks, totalling at 158 tracks.
> 
> Having all the tracks instruments loaded into RAM and ready to play on live channels, iStat Menus shows this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I don't quite understand how the Swap Memory system works: Logic Pro is eating up 98,8% of all my RAM and it needed another 4,15GB which it swapped from the SSD?
> 
> If that's the case, does that mean that theoretically I can just keep on loading the RAM and it'll swap until my 1TB SSD is depleted?
> 
> And how come there's only 60% pressure against the RAM? Is it because of the compressed ~8GB?
> 
> If anyone can please clarify how this works it would be very much appreciated!
> 
> (Bytheway, I'm loving the performance, my 8 high performance CPU cores aren't even phased by all this activity, hovering at ~35-45% of load, and all of this at temperatures UNDER 50 degrees Celsius! Fan's don't even turn on. While keeping live tracks record enabled at the same time? Amazing! This means I can even mix and master in this template on top of MIDI sequencing! This would have fried my old Intel i9 Macbook Pro a long time ago at 100 degrees under any kind of load.)
> 
> Thanks in advance for any input!


Oh this is the config i was looking for, could you try a ram stress test whenever you can ?


----------



## Cdnalsi

doublejo said:


> Oh this is the config i was looking for, could you try a ram stress test whenever you can ?


My whole post was a RAM stress test.

What did you have in mind?


----------



## doublejo

Cdnalsi said:


> My whole post was a RAM stress test.
> 
> What did you have in mind?


Oh yeah true it is, just wanted to see, if you could push it even more, like in this video for example, with ram demanding orchestral instruments


----------



## PJMorgan

Cdnalsi said:


> Hi guys, I want to ask if anyone knows what's happening with my RAM, I'm getting quite confused with the readings I'm getting for my system (16" M1 Pro MBP (10CPU/16GPU) 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD).
> 
> I've created a template in Logic Pro for new project: band (Spitfire JB Piano, Sampler PSF Rhodes, Sforzando Bass, Drums) + synths (mostly u-he Podolski, ZebraCM, Zebralette, Triple Cheese) + orchestra (Spitfire BBC Symphony Orchestra Core separate articulations). Running all native Apple Silicon plugins, nothing Intel based.
> 
> I've loaded ~138 MIDI tracks (5 band, 5 synths, 31 woodwinds, 42 brass, 2 keys, 23 percussion, 30 strings) and some audio tracks, totalling at 158 tracks.
> 
> Having all the tracks instruments loaded into RAM and ready to play on live channels, iStat Menus shows this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I don't quite understand how the Swap Memory system works: Logic Pro is eating up 98,8% of all my RAM and it needed another 4,15GB which it swapped from the SSD?
> 
> If that's the case, does that mean that theoretically I can just keep on loading the RAM and it'll swap until my 1TB SSD is depleted?
> 
> And how come there's only 60% pressure against the RAM? Is it because of the compressed ~8GB?
> 
> If anyone can please clarify how this works it would be very much appreciated!
> 
> (Bytheway, I'm loving the performance, my 8 high performance CPU cores aren't even phased by all this activity, hovering at ~35-45% of load, and all of this at temperatures UNDER 50 degrees Celsius! Fan's don't even turn on. While keeping live tracks record enabled at the same time? Amazing! This means I can even mix and master in this template on top of MIDI sequencing! This would have fried my old Intel i9 Macbook Pro a long time ago at 100 degrees under any kind of load.)
> 
> Thanks in advance for any input!


I wouldn't depend on swap, eventually things are going to start to slow down. I haven't used logic much lately but I have recently set up a small template with all kontakt tracks disabled, so they're not taking up any RAM until needed. This is on a m1 air with 16gb ram. With all tracks enabled this template uses 14gb.

I did do a test with cubase 11 & a project that was using about 25gb ram, about 6gb was in swap (don't ask we're the rest went) & I did eventually get it to playback after maxing out the buffer size & lowering kontakts memory buffer size. Although the system was running a bit clunky at this stage.

I'm not sure why the ram count, pressure & swap don't add up & it's probably okay to use a small amount of swap for a while but I wouldn't depend on it. You'll probably have to freeze some tracks at some stage.


----------



## aeliron

Dajusch said:


> Thanks for your answer. This gives me hope. I did a clean install of everything. I thought it might have something to do with the Sessions that came from an older Logic version. But even clean new sessions behave weirdly. If I have a Track selected while playback the last CPU-thread is always maxed out I get clicks and pops the playback keeps breaking up and restarting.
> Only way to get rid of this is selecting a track without Input i.e. Drummer.
> 
> But I did manage to find the "bad apples". If I deactivate all the Plugin Alliance Plugins the problem almost vanishes.
> 
> I don't want to derail this thread, so maybe I'll start a new one. It seems I'm not alone with this problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrible performance on M1 Pro 16 inch Ma… - Apple Community
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> origin-discussions2-jp.apple.com


Having a VI track selected also jams things up for me too. Spikes one CPU core. Switching to an audio track fixes that but it is not ideal.


----------



## rnb_2

Yeah, I'm not sure how else to say this: when the M1s came out, the big questions were "how does the CPU perform?" and "is the 16GB RAM limit a problem for VI composers?". As time went on, it became clear that the CPU is very, very good, especially as the amount of Intel code that is being translated on-machine starts getting reduced, and more optimized native code is increased. The RAM question wasn't simple to answer, but I think we've seen enough in 14 months to come to the conclusion that, while running short of RAM on an Apple Silicon machine isn't exactly like running short on a 2014 iMac - the underlying system architecture can compensate for a surprising period of time - there is nothing "magic" going on, and if you want to compose with VIs, you shouldn't skimp on RAM.

I'm not saying that everyone has to go for 64GB - those that need that, *know* that they need it - but I don't see any reason to drop $2500+ on a MacBook Pro and not give yourself a reasonable shot at having a machine that will handle not only what you throw at it now, but what you hope to be doing with it in 3 years. Remember that there is only one pool of memory in an M1 Mac, and it's used for everything - applications, display buffers, GPU tasks, Machine Learning calculations - *everything*. You can't add RAM after purchase, so if you're serious about running orchestral VIs and that's one of the primary things you're going to do with the computer, start at 32GB. There are many, many composers on this board that wouldn't touch Apple Silicon until it offered more than 16GB - don't ignore their experience and wisdom in a misguided attempt to save a little bit of money in the grand scheme.

If you really can't swing the price of a 32GB MacBook Pro and you need a new computer in the first half of 2022, there are two options right now:

1) Get a 16GB M1 Mac (Mac mini if you don't need to be mobile, MacBook Air if you do) to learn with, and push it as hard as you can to see what you can do. It may turn out you don't actually need an M1 Pro/Max and the extra RAM yet, and you can pocket the price difference toward saving for when you do.

2) Wait to see what happens with the "Pro" Mac mini that should be coming in the next few months, as this will undoubtedly be a much less expensive way into M1 Pro/Max performance and hopefully leave you some budget room for at least 32GB of RAM.


----------



## Cdnalsi

aeliron said:


> Having a VI track selected also jams things up for me too. Spikes one CPU core. Switching to an audio track fixes that but it is not ideal.


Had this exact thing happen to me when I got the new machine, but it completely goes away if you're running only native Apple Silicon plugins.


----------



## aeliron

3CPU said:


> The piano roll looks similar to Tetris, grab the eraser, speed up the tempo and whoa. That's about as close I get to gaming on Mac.


If the notes in your piano roll start falling down, .... that's a pretty serious bug


----------



## aeliron

Cdnalsi said:


> Had this exact thing happen to me when I got the new machine, but it completely goes away if you're running only native Apple Silicon plugins.


Unfortunately I don't have those two plugins


----------



## aeliron

rnb_2 said:


> Here you go:
> 
> I'd say that's roughly the config you're looking for, though you could likely get by with 1TB internal storage in most cases (saving $400US), and you could go with the 10-core CPU/14-core GPU to save another $100 and probably not notice. Definitely get more RAM rather than more storage, as samples can always by put on an external USB-C or Thunderbolt SSD. The storage is very fast, but there's no guarantee that everything will behave predictably if you ask it to act like RAM as a matter of course.
> 
> So, the base config I'd be looking at for orchestral work would be 14" 10-core CPU/14-Core GPU M1 Pro, 32GB RAM, 1TB storage, then spec up from there as your budget allows. Remember that you'll probably want a Thunderbolt dock/hub of some sort to give you USB-A ports, some sort of video out (Mini DisplayPort, DisplayPort, HDMI), and maybe charging over Thunderbolt if you want to live the "unplug one cable and take the laptop with you" lifestyle, plus a decent USB-C (~$30) or Thunderbolt ($80) external NVMe enclosure + 1-4TB NVMe SSD (you should be able to get a drive for <$100/TB).


And Apple helpfully offers an installment payment plan ...


----------



## doublejo

PJMorgan said:


> I did do a test with cubase 11 & a project that was using about 25gb ram, about 6gb was in swap (don't ask we're the rest went) & I did eventually get it to playback after maxing out the buffer size & lowering kontakts memory buffer size. Although the system was running a bit clunky at this stage.
> 
> I'm not sure why the ram count, pressure & swap don't add up & it's probably okay to use a small amount of swap for a while but I wouldn't depend on it. You'll probably have to freeze some tracks at some stage.


What mac do you have ?


----------



## PJMorgan

doublejo said:


> What mac do you have ?


It's an m1 macbook air, got a 16gb refirb one for a great price from apple. I'm holding out for hopefully a mini with more ram & better cpu & got the air for now for portability but I've been using it almost exclusively now over my PC. Although the projects I've been working on aren't particularly ram heavy.

That reminds me I must update my sig with specs.


----------



## Cdnalsi

aeliron said:


> Unfortunately I don't have those two plugins


Mainly it's Kontakt that's messing up. And NI are kinda dropping the ball in updating it, and not just the player, but also all the underlying processes (Native Access and a bunch of license and control processes). So it'll take a good while until it's usable on these new machines.


----------



## HeliaVox

I really want to like my MacBook Pro, but there are all sorts of little issues that bug me to no end on the daily. That's what I get for being an early adopter, but man, it's getting to the point where it's not an enjoyable experience to use this computer. Was it like this with the Motorola to Power PC switch, or the Power PC to Intel switch? Screen flickers, sluggish behavior, strange external HD performance(to the point where streaming samples is not possible). And some os qol issues that I don't like personally. I just expect more from Apple. Also, I'm sure when everything has been adopted over and Rosetta !! is a thing of the past, we'll all be looking back at this time period and laugh about it. (or will we?)


----------



## Cdnalsi

HeliaVox said:


> I really want to like my MacBook Pro, but there are all sorts of little issues that bug me to no end on the daily. That's what I get for being an early adopter, but man, it's getting to the point where it's not an enjoyable experience to use this computer. Was it like this with the Motorola to Power PC switch, or the Power PC to Intel switch? Screen flickers, sluggish behavior, strange external HD performance(to the point where streaming samples is not possible). And some os qol issues that I don't like personally. I just expect more from Apple. Also, I'm sure when everything has been adopted over and Rosetta !! is a thing of the past, we'll all be looking back at this time period and laugh about it. (or will we?)


Exactly my situation!

What I've done for about a week now was a clean reinstall of Monterey and being really anal about only using native Apple Silicon apps and software.

Though I've not had any screen flickers, my Samsung T5 external SSD on USB-C runs buttery smooth, Logic and all plugins being native just runs circles around my old 2018 i9 MBP. I have had no sluggish behaviour from any software so far.

But I'm not using Kontakt anymore (I only had a few banks I can get away with not using ATM anyways), instead using Sforzando for a few instruments, and only plugins from Klanghelm, Valhalla, and synths from u-he and Pendulate et al.

The performance boost I'm seeing now and stability of my Logic projects is night and day compared to a week ago - when I had all these other Intel processes that needed to be translated through Rosetta - to the point where I had CPU spikes that I couldn't even record MIDI with my keyboard while projects were playing. Now it's all so smooth and fast loading, it's not even funny.

So yeah, we'll get there eventually, and I guess it's normal to have growing pains, but once we no longer have a need for x86 stuff I can see how great everything will be!


----------



## aeliron

HeliaVox said:


> I really want to like my MacBook Pro, but there are all sorts of little issues that bug me to no end on the daily. That's what I get for being an early adopter, but man, it's getting to the point where it's not an enjoyable experience to use this computer. Was it like this with the Motorola to Power PC switch, or the Power PC to Intel switch? Screen flickers, sluggish behavior, strange external HD performance(to the point where streaming samples is not possible).


If the screen is flickering ... you may want to contact them about a return/replacement. 14-day return window but should still be covered under normal warranty.


----------



## 3CPU

Cdnalsi said:


> Samsung T5 external SSD on USB-C runs buttery smooth


Good to know thanks! I am considering 2TB external SSD storage for backups.



Cdnalsi said:


> Logic and all plugins being native just runs circles around my old 2018 i9 MBP. I have had no sluggish behaviour from any software so far.


I've been checking compatibility lists for native supported plugins, there are some that require Rosetta, but some plugins don't run as well -- Kontakt is being tested prior to release for native support! Hopefully that will soon be working really well natively.



Cdnalsi said:


> The performance boost I'm seeing now and stability of my Logic projects is night and day compared to a week ago - when I had all these other Intel processes that needed to be translated through Rosetta - to the point where I had CPU spikes that I couldn't even record MIDI with my keyboard while projects were playing. Now it's all so smooth and fast loading, it's not even funny.


Interesting you narrowed down the cause of spikes (Rosetta), running natively is much better. As you said, "Now it's all so smooth and fast loading, it's not even funny." [Cdnalsi]

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Cheers


----------



## 3CPU

aeliron said:


> If the notes in your piano roll start falling down, .... that's a pretty serious bug


 Not a bug! Screen setup in portrait mode without rotation to avoid Torticollis.


----------



## Cdnalsi

3CPU said:


> I've been checking compatibility lists for native supported plugins, there are some that require Rosetta, but some plugins don't run as well -- Kontakt is being tested prior to release for native support! Hopefully that will soon be working really well natively.


The big problem as I see it with Kontakt is that NI is taking way too long to get their spaghetti code up to the next level (see the "Is Kontakt dying/future developments" thread). It's been a year and a couple of months since Apple Silicon's announcement and software companies have been pretty quick to jump on the native wagon. NI is lagging behind and I suspect it's not just about Kontakt itself; but also all the underlying processes that run in the background that need to be updated. 

So I foresee we'll have to wait a pretty long time until Kontakt will be fully native for Apple Silicon. Fortunately I'm not relying on Kontakt libraries as much, and I can just do without them until they update.


----------



## khollister

Cdnalsi said:


> Mainly it's Kontakt that's messing up. And NI are kinda dropping the ball in updating it, and not just the player, but also all the underlying processes (Native Access and a bunch of license and control processes). So it'll take a good while until it's usable on these new machines.


There is a Kontakt native beta in fairly wide release at the moment and NI themselves have stated they are hoping for a Feb release. My experience has been very positive so far.


----------



## khollister

aeliron said:


> If the screen is flickering ... you may want to contact them about a return/replacement. 14-day return window but should still be covered under normal warranty.


No screen problems here either. I agree you should contact Apple ASAP for a return


----------



## Cdnalsi

khollister said:


> There is a Kontakt native beta in fairly wide release at the moment and NI themselves have stated they are hoping for a Feb release. My experience has been very positive so far.


If you are in the beta can you please check in Activity Monitor anything that's named Native Instruments or Access or Kontakt to see which processes are native and Intel based? Thanks!


----------



## khollister

Cdnalsi said:


> If you are in the beta can you please check in Activity Monitor anything that's named Native Instruments or Access or Kontakt to see which processes are native and Intel based? Thanks!


Not sure what you are after. In Logic (which is what I'm using), native plugins run in a AUHostingService process, Intel plugins run in a AUHostingCompatabilityService process. Native Access is still Rosetta, although I have had absolutely no issues with it since the updated version for the M1's early last year. I currently have Logic running with a Kontakt 6.7b2 instrument loaded and there are no processes named Native Instruments or Kontakt at all. Only the AUHostingService.

The Kontakt beta is ARM native. I am not aware that hybrid apps (part ARM. part Intel) are even possible - hence the wait for Pace to do the final release of the Fusion API


----------



## HeliaVox

aeliron said:


> If the screen is flickering ... you may want to contact them about a return/replacement. 14-day return window but should still be covered under normal warranty.


I apologise, I should have been more specific. The screen flickers when I'm using any web browser. Like on this site, for instance, The blue background and the dark grey background that surround the message boxes here are jittery, almost as if there are 2 sets of pixels and they screen is jumping between the two of them. Very annoying and very fatuiguing to the eye.


----------



## khollister

HeliaVox said:


> I apologise, I should have been more specific. The screen flickers when I'm using any web browser. Like on this site, for instance, The blue background and the dark grey background that surround the message boxes here are jittery, almost as if there are 2 sets of pixels and they screen is jumping between the two of them. Very annoying and very fatuiguing to the eye.


Does not do that on mine


----------



## aeliron

HeliaVox said:


> I apologise, I should have been more specific. The screen flickers when I'm using any web browser. Like on this site, for instance, The blue background and the dark grey background that surround the message boxes here are jittery, almost as if there are 2 sets of pixels and they screen is jumping between the two of them. Very annoying and very fatuiguing to the eye.


Yeah, I'd def contact Apple Support. I mean, there's some weird slowdown/unsmoothness on scrolling on some sites in Safari, but not this one.


----------



## jonathanwright

I'm due to take delivery of mine this week, it's a bit OT, but does anyone have any recommendations for a decent 32 inch display to buy?


----------



## PeterBaumann

HeliaVox said:


> I apologise, I should have been more specific. The screen flickers when I'm using any web browser. Like on this site, for instance, The blue background and the dark grey background that surround the message boxes here are jittery, almost as if there are 2 sets of pixels and they screen is jumping between the two of them. Very annoying and very fatuiguing to the eye.


No flicker on the MBP screen, here. The only time I've noticed flickering is on my external display which, for some reason, sometimes defaults to 60Hz rather than 100Hz (100Hz doesn't show in the Display Menu options sometimes). Unplugging and reconnecting the display's cable seems to fix the issue and 100Hz can then be selected, which stops the flickering.


----------



## samphony

jonathanwright said:


> I'm due to take delivery of mine this week, it's a bit OT, but does anyone have any recommendations for a decent 32 inch display to buy?


Depends on how much you want to spend. 
I like the 32“ LG Ultrafine Ergo and the Dell 
U3219Q. If you want to spent less then maybe the Samsung U32J592UQR


----------



## jonathanwright

samphony said:


> Depends on how much you want to spend.
> I like the 32“ LG Ultrafine Ergo and the Dell
> U3219Q. If you want to spent less then maybe the Samsung U32J592UQR


Cheers! I'm happy to spend a bit more for something good quality that will last a few years. I'll check those out.


----------



## KEM

jonathanwright said:


> I'm due to take delivery of mine this week, it's a bit OT, but does anyone have any recommendations for a decent 32 inch display to buy?



I have the Samsung uj59 and I’m very happy with it, Charlie Clouser also has a few of them and he’s stated here that he’s happy with his as well


----------



## jonathanwright

KEM said:


> I have the Samsung uj59 and I’m very happy with it, Charlie Clouser also has a few of them and he’s stated here that he’s happy with his as well


Thanks @KEM


----------



## Prof_lofi

rnb_2 said:


> Here you go:
> 
> I'd say that's roughly the config you're looking for, though you could likely get by with 1TB internal storage in most cases (saving $400US), and you could go with the 10-core CPU/14-core GPU to save another $100 and probably not notice. Definitely get more RAM rather than more storage, as samples can always by put on an external USB-C or Thunderbolt SSD. The storage is very fast, but there's no guarantee that everything will behave predictably if you ask it to act like RAM as a matter of course.
> 
> So, the base config I'd be looking at for orchestral work would be 14" 10-core CPU/14-Core GPU M1 Pro, 32GB RAM, 1TB storage, then spec up from there as your budget allows. Remember that you'll probably want a Thunderbolt dock/hub of some sort to give you USB-A ports, some sort of video out (Mini DisplayPort, DisplayPort, HDMI), and maybe charging over Thunderbolt if you want to live the "unplug one cable and take the laptop with you" lifestyle, plus a decent USB-C (~$30) or Thunderbolt ($80) external NVMe enclosure + 1-4TB NVMe SSD (you should be able to get a drive for <$100/TB).


Thanks and sorry for the delay. This is what I ordered in the end:

Apple M1 Pro with 10-core CPU, 16-core GPU, 16-core Neural Engine
32GB unified memory
2TB SSD storage
96W USB-C Power Adapter
14-inch Liquid Retina XDR display
Three Thunderbolt 4 ports, HDMI port, SDXC card slot, MagSafe 3 port
Backlit Magic Keyboard with Touch ID - British
Accessory Kit

I got the extra storage as I have a lot of Reaktor and Ableton samples that I use live and they take up a lot of space..and I personally hate not having enough storage in my machine. The 32GB Ram is fine for the amount of orchestral work I’m likely to do anytime soon.

I’d love to hear more about a good thunderbolt dock as I’ve read the M1 Pros can be very picky about what they work with.


----------



## Soundbed

Prof_lofi said:


> a good thunderbolt dock


I use OWC with the 12-14 port options.


----------



## rnb_2

Soundbed said:


> I use OWC with the 12-14 port options.


I've had the 14-port OWC for almost 3 years - the only issue I've had is that I recently discovered that the USB-C port on the front is very, very slow for some reason. Fortunately, I haven't really needed it, or I would dig into it more and maybe see about a possible fix. Other than that, it's still a pretty ideal setup - good selection of ports, decently-arranged.


----------



## SomeGuy

read others mention external HD issues. I have all my kontak libraries on an external nvme SSD connected directly to the Mac (no hub), I’m having odd behavior where at times things are running great, while at other times I cannot hold a 3 note chord without getting disk errors and drop outs! Also have issues where I will get spinning just trying to access folders on the drive both within Kontak and the finder itself. Preferences are set to never allow sleep for external drives, so I’m confused as to the issues I’m having. Again it’s not all the time, but happens enough to be frustrating. Any advice? Don’t know if this is a MacBook Pro issue or SSD issue or what to do.


----------



## Soundbed

rnb_2 said:


> I've had the 14-port OWC for almost 3 years - the only issue I've had is that I recently discovered that the USB-C port on the front is very, very slow for some reason. Fortunately, I haven't really needed it, or I would dig into it more and maybe see about a possible fix. Other than that, it's still a pretty ideal setup - good selection of ports, decently-arranged.


Ah interesting. I don’t need it too often but I know I won’t run a 1080 monitor adapter to hdmi.


----------



## KEM

The urge to buy a new Mac is very strong but I need to hold out for the Mac Pro/Mini refresh before I pull the plug…


----------



## KEM

Apple employees get a HUGE discount, I might have to get on that…


----------



## colony nofi

Fully spec'd out MBP arrived here late last week all fine. Just beginning to put it thru its paces now.
USB 4 drives work incredibly well - I have one here that benched ABOVE what the manufacturer said it would run at (where as on the M1 mini it was slower). USB 3 is a crap-shot and there's all sorts of reasons behind that. I got OK results with a different cable to the manufacturers cable on a couple of drives. Thunderbolt 3 drives work as expected. Have no TB4 devices to test.

I have tested a Caldigit TB3 hub which works exactly as expected. TB passthru our focusrite interfaces works great and without problems, even to a thunderbolt drive.

OWC pro TB3 doc with 10GbE works - though have not looked at HD speeds. That's used for us for the 10GbE!

Performance inside MAX MSP running native M1 is not as good as expected - 2013 6 core trash-can is giving a tonne more overhead for our immersive applications. There's been no time to look into why that might be / if there's other things at play. 

Quick nuendo tests were good, but we have not had the time to set it up with our internal benchmarks to really see how it stacks up against our other computers.


----------



## SomeGuy

colony nofi said:


> Fully spec'd out MBP arrived here late last week all fine. Just beginning to put it thru its paces now.
> USB 4 drives work incredibly well - I have one here that benched ABOVE what the manufacturer said it would run at (where as on the M1 mini it was slower). USB 3 is a crap-shot and there's all sorts of reasons behind that. I got OK results with a different cable to the manufacturers cable on a couple of drives. Thunderbolt 3 drives work as expected. Have no TB4 devices to test.


What USB 4 drives are you using?


----------



## SomeGuy

Having a real tough time with my M1 pro 10-core MacBook Pro. In logic with Kontakt and VSL Synchron, I’m getting all sorts of CPU spikes in Logic which causes clicks and pops, and inside kontakt disk spikes which cause dropouts, and I’m just powering through it, but its really starting to get annoying with all the clicks and pops. And the project maybe has 15 tracks, about 6-8 in use at a time - nothing really big yet. Tried working with WiFi off thinking the mac was trying to do stuff in the background, but didnt seem to improve anything.

Really dont know who’s at fault. Is it an HD issue or is it due to using instruments that are not yet M1 native. Is there a suggested method for testing external hard drives?


----------



## colony nofi

SomeGuy said:


> What USB 4 drives are you using?


This enclosure with I think it was a Samsung 980 inside, but don't quote me on that.
(Sorry - amazon link isn't allowed : Its an Orico M.2 Enclosure for NVMe, USB4.0 40Gbps)
​


----------



## Cdnalsi

SomeGuy said:


> Having a real tough time with my M1 pro 10-core MacBook Pro. In logic with Kontakt and VSL Synchron, I’m getting all sorts of CPU spikes in Logic which causes clicks and pops, and inside kontakt disk spikes which cause dropouts, and I’m just powering through it, but its really starting to get annoying with all the clicks and pops. And the project maybe has 15 tracks, about 6-8 in use at a time - nothing really big yet. Tried working with WiFi off thinking the mac was trying to do stuff in the background, but didnt seem to improve anything.
> 
> Really dont know who’s at fault. Is it an HD issue or is it due to using instruments that are not yet M1 native. Is there a suggested method for testing external hard drives?


It's Kontakt running through Rosetta 2 and still not being updated to a native plugin.

I'm in a position where I can just not deal with Kontakt (didn't rely on many of its libraries). Did a clean reinstall of Monterey, and started being really adamant about running Apple Silicon native instruments only.

The performance boost I'm seeing is quite amazing: 300 to 400 tracks filled with Spitfire stuff (and Logic's Sampler, sforzando, everything bussed to 4 IR Space Designer Reverbs, EQs and compression as well) and my cores are barely tickled. No more spikes, no more clicks and pops, everything running under 50 degrees celsius, fans not even ramping up. Night and day difference when running everything native.


----------



## colony nofi

SomeGuy said:


> Having a real tough time with my M1 pro 10-core MacBook Pro. In logic with Kontakt and VSL Synchron, I’m getting all sorts of CPU spikes in Logic which causes clicks and pops, and inside kontakt disk spikes which cause dropouts, and I’m just powering through it, but its really starting to get annoying with all the clicks and pops. And the project maybe has 15 tracks, about 6-8 in use at a time - nothing really big yet. Tried working with WiFi off thinking the mac was trying to do stuff in the background, but didnt seem to improve anything.
> 
> Really dont know who’s at fault. Is it an HD issue or is it due to using instruments that are not yet M1 native. Is there a suggested method for testing external hard drives?


What are your buffer settings? Which interface are you using?
What is your preload size in kontakt? 
You might need to do more thorough tests to work out where the problem is. I'm not on logic, but there's plenty of folk using logic who are doing just fine with that computer. 
Could you post a screenshot of a project showing the LEAST amount of kontakt patches that are loaded that cause issues. So like a stress test. If you could use something fairly common that'd be great - we have a tonne of libs either at work in my lab or on my home & travel rigs that will likely match up to something so some external tests here could be done.
I very much doubt it is the mac HD issue - but it could be an issue if you are using a USB3 drive. On the first day we needed to change out a bunch of USB-C cables that worked on our old system, but gave terrible speeds on the new system (and it turns out the cables were out of spec, but thats a bloody hard thing to identify. The cable at fault was an OEM samsung USB - C 3,1 cable!!!


----------



## colony nofi

Cdnalsi said:


> It's Kontakt running through Rosetta 2 and still not being updated to a native plugin.
> 
> I'm in a position where I can just not deal with Kontakt (didn't rely on many of its libraries). Did a clean reinstall of Monterey, and started being really adamant about running Apple Silicon native instruments only.
> 
> The performance boost I'm seeing is quite amazing: 300 to 400 tracks filled with Spitfire stuff (and Logic's Sampler, sforzando, everything bussed to 4 IR Space Designer Reverbs, EQs and compression as well) and my cores are barely tickled. No more spikes, no more clicks and pops, everything running under 50 degrees celsius, fans not even ramping up. Night and day difference when running everything native.


Ah yes kontakt is causing some people problems. I did do a test though on the weekend that showed very very good kontakt performance using rosetta on nuendo 11 - although it was an artificial benchmark using a sample library we created internally just for benchmarking.

I have not done any real work kontakt testing yet. We have loads of spitfire libs we can try compare between kontakt and spitfire player (not the same libs, but similar enough for benchmarking, both made by spitfire)


----------



## Cdnalsi

colony nofi said:


> Ah yes kontakt is causing some people problems. I did do a test though on the weekend that showed very very good kontakt performance using rosetta on nuendo 11 - although it was an artificial benchmark using a sample library we created internally just for benchmarking.
> 
> I have not done any real work kontakt testing yet. We have loads of spitfire libs we can try compare between kontakt and spitfire player (not the same libs, but similar enough for benchmarking, both made by spitfire)


Yeah it's ridiculous. When I bought this new Macbook and started installing all my old stuff and running them through Rosetta 2 in Logic I felt buyer's remorse for spending this much money on a machine that was running not worse than my old 2018 i9 Intel Macbook Pro - but actually borderline unplayable with live tracks because of the CPU spikes and clicks. Every time I switched to a new channel to record I had to "give it some time" and still it was barely manageable. 

Now running everything native I can actually set my Logic's buffer to 64 samples and sequence hundreds of channels flawlessly with minimal latency. I'm quite amazed of the performance still.


----------



## Ivan M.

SomeGuy said:


> Having a real tough time with my M1 pro 10-core MacBook Pro. In logic with Kontakt and VSL Synchron, I’m getting all sorts of CPU spikes in Logic which causes clicks and pops, and inside kontakt disk spikes which cause dropouts, and I’m just powering through it, but its really starting to get annoying with all the clicks and pops. And the project maybe has 15 tracks, about 6-8 in use at a time - nothing really big yet. Tried working with WiFi off thinking the mac was trying to do stuff in the background, but didnt seem to improve anything.
> 
> Really dont know who’s at fault. Is it an HD issue or is it due to using instruments that are not yet M1 native. Is there a suggested method for testing external hard drives?


Disable multi-threading in Kontakt plugin settings. Run Logic through Rosetta. Kontakt native arm support should come this month


----------



## jonathanwright

I read on the Logic Pro Help forum that a user was having lots of issues with spikes, and it turned out to be the Scaler plugin. They removed the plugin and now Logic is working fine for them.


----------



## SomeGuy

colony nofi said:


> What are your buffer settings? Which interface are you using?
> What is your preload size in kontakt?
> You might need to do more thorough tests to work out where the problem is. I'm not on logic, but there's plenty of folk using logic who are doing just fine with that computer.
> Could you post a screenshot of a project showing the LEAST amount of kontakt patches that are loaded that cause issues. So like a stress test. If you could use something fairly common that'd be great - we have a tonne of libs either at work in my lab or on my home & travel rigs that will likely match up to something so some external tests here could be done.
> I very much doubt it is the mac HD issue - but it could be an issue if you are using a USB3 drive. On the first day we needed to change out a bunch of USB-C cables that worked on our old system, but gave terrible speeds on the new system (and it turns out the cables were out of spec, but thats a bloody hard thing to identify. The cable at fault was an OEM samsung USB - C 3,1 cable!!!


Thank you so much for your help! I'm not running any audio interface (output device external headphones, input device none). Buffer size 256, processing threads automatic, process buffer range large. My kontakt preload size is 42kB, as I thought my external SSD would be fast enough. I'll try increasing this and see if it helps, though I only have 16GB ram so I want to save it where I can.

I am using a Sabrent USB 3.2 enclosure from my NVME drive with their supplied cable. I'm now wondering if this might be the issue?

Trying to come up with a "stress test" type project and of course its now performing better than it is on my current project! So I went back to my current project and the main difference is I'm using Synchron Strings in the project. When I replaced synchron with Spitfire (Kontakt) I'm no longer getting the random CPU spikes, though I do get disk 100% in Kontakt when using legato patches and long strings, so maybe I do need to increase the preload size (open to suggested settings). But whats really odd is Synchron is not running off the external, but is running 100% internally on the super fast macbook drive. So I guess either I'm running out of RAM or Synchron is not ready for M1 use yet?

edit: weird - holding a single 4 note chord with Spitfire Symphonic Strings Long and watching the disk meter in Kontakt jump like crazy in seemingly random ways - 0% to 75% back to 3% then a red flash, then 0%. Is this normal?


----------



## rnb_2

The Kontakt random spikes issue is pretty well-documented - the ARM-native Kontakt is in beta and is looking pretty good for release in the near future. I also get spikes in Synchron - the first note I play with a new instrument/articulation in BBO on my M1 Macs (Air/mini) often just doesn't play due to a spike. I believe that the ARM-native version of Synchron is also coming along, but won't be in the first release that works with iLok.


----------



## SomeGuy

jonathanwright said:


> I read on the Logic Pro Help forum that a user was having lots of issues with spikes, and it turned out to be the Scaler plugin. They removed the plugin and now Logic is working fine for them.


I'm not using that particular plugin, but it does make me wonder about plugins in general. When I started setting up this computer, I of course downloaded and installed plugins not checking first if they are M1 native or not. This project is not using any of them (besides Kontakt and Synchron). Does having AU plugings installed but not use potentially cause issues? Or do they need to be active in the project? I would assume they would need to be in use?


----------



## David Kudell

Keep in mind Kontakt isn’t officially supported yet on Monterrey using Rosetta. So it’s not just that it’s not M1 native, it’s a software thing as well.


----------



## rnb_2

jonathanwright said:


> I read on the Logic Pro Help forum that a user was having lots of issues with spikes, and it turned out to be the Scaler plugin. They removed the plugin and now Logic is working fine for them.


This would be odd if they're using the latest version of Scaler, since Scaler has been ARM-native for a while. Maybe an interaction with something else?


----------



## jonathanwright

rnb_2 said:


> This would be odd if they're using the latest version of Scaler, since Scaler has been ARM-native for a while. Maybe an interaction with something else?


One of the replies suggested it could be something to do with Logic doing something funky with validation. I’ve no idea though!


----------



## SomeGuy

rnb_2 said:


> The Kontakt random spikes issue is pretty well-documented - the ARM-native Kontakt is in beta and is looking pretty good for release in the near future. I also get spikes in Synchron - the first note I play with a new instrument/articulation in BBO on my M1 Macs (Air/mini) often just doesn't play due to a spike. I believe that the ARM-native version of Synchron is also coming along, but won't be in the first release that works with iLok.


Thank you so much for this reply. Nice to know that I'm not alone and I guess I'll just power through until the update comes along.

BTW, the first notes not playing with Synchron might be due to it loading the necessary samples. Sychron defaults to keeping everything unloaded until it gets midi signal, so I dont think thats a CPU issue but its just loading whats needed after getting that first note, which of course it will not play as its busy loading.


----------



## samphony

Ivan M. said:


> Disable multi-threading in Kontakt plugin settings. Run Logic through Rosetta. Kontakt native arm support should come this month


If I set kontakt multi threading to off some libraries seem to struggle so i have set it to 3 cores.


----------



## rnb_2

SomeGuy said:


> Thank you so much for this reply. Nice to know that I'm not alone and I guess I'll just power through until the update comes along.
> 
> BTW, the first notes not playing with Synchron might be due to it loading the necessary samples. Sychron defaults to keeping everything unloaded until it gets midi signal, so I dont think thats a CPU issue but its just loading whats needed after getting that first note, which of course it will not play as its busy loading.


Thanks for the explanation of Synchron's issue - I haven't tried it recently, but I do remember that the missing notes don't seem to be accompanied by a spike in its CPU meter/graph, so it being a sample loading issue makes sense. Is there any way to change this behavior in Synchron?


----------



## SomeGuy

rnb_2 said:


> Thanks for the explanation of Synchron's issue - I haven't tried it recently, but I do remember that the missing notes don't seem to be accompanied by a spike in its CPU meter/graph, so it being a sample loading issue makes sense. Is there any way to change this behavior in Synchron?


Yeah, in the synchron player settings -> Engine you check the box "Force enable all slots." This will force Synchron to load everything. I personally dont use this method as I dont have the RAM necessary to load all articulations, but if you build custom presets with your most used articulations that you want loaded at all times that could work. The good news with using "enable slots on MIDI activity," once they are loaded they stay loaded, so its only that first note the first time you load the articulation thats missed and its good after that. VE pro does this as well which I love as it allows huge templates but small initial load times.


----------



## rnb_2

SomeGuy said:


> Yeah, in the synchron player settings -> Engine you check the box "Force enable all slots." This will force Synchron to load everything. I personally dont use this method as I dont have the RAM necessary to load all articulations, but if you build custom presets with your most used articulations that you want loaded at all times that could work. The good news with using "enable slots on MIDI activity," once they are loaded they stay loaded, so its only that first note the first time you load the articulation thats missed and its good after that. VE pro does this as well which I love as it allows huge templates but small initial load times.


Thanks! Being on M1s, it's likely I also don't have the RAM, but it's worth a shot (I don't do anything at all complicated).


----------



## khollister

While the preceding discussion about the default Synchron sample loading is correct, on my M1Max there is also a "first note" issue. After the player is loaded, the first note (after the samples are loaded) spikes the CPU and playback is cut off with breakup. Then the CPU load dies down and everything plays as expected until the instance is removed and a new instance is loaded. This occurs in both the Synchron player and Synchron piano player.

So there is a Rosetta Synchron issue separate from the default sample loading behavior.


----------



## Cdnalsi

khollister said:


> While the preceding discussion about the default Synchron sample loading is correct, on my M1Max there is also a "first note" issue. After the player is loaded, the first note (after the samples are loaded) spikes the CPU and playback is cut off with breakup. Then the CPU load dies down and everything plays as expected until the instance is removed and a new instance is loaded. This occurs in both the Synchron player and Synchron piano player.
> 
> So there is a Rosetta Synchron issue separate from the default sample loading behavior.


Yes my experience exactly. That 'first note' issue is when Rosetta is translating all the spaghetti code I suspect.


----------



## rnb_2

khollister said:


> While the preceding discussion about the default Synchron sample loading is correct, on my M1Max there is also a "first note" issue. After the player is loaded, the first note (after the samples are loaded) spikes the CPU and playback is cut off with breakup. Then the CPU load dies down and everything plays as expected until the instance is removed and a new instance is loaded. This occurs in both the Synchron player and Synchron piano player.
> 
> So there is a Rosetta Synchron issue separate from the default sample loading behavior.


I think this is exactly what I see on my M1s, but I was going from memory and didn't want to give more detail until I was able to run a quick test. Does it also not show up in the Synchron CPU graph window for you? I was pretty sure I was seeing a flash from the CPU icon in Synchron when it happened, and I get the same breakup when it happens, but the graph never actually shows a CPU spike (IIRC).


----------



## Prof_lofi

Is anyone running a M1 Pro with RME Fireface 400? I know it’s old but it’s perfect and I don’t think after dropping £3k+ that I can buy another £1200 RME interface.

That said..what interfaces are people using that are working (I’ve been reading mixed reports on other forums)?


----------



## samphony

Prof_lofi said:


> Is anyone running a M1 Pro with RME Fireface 400? I know it’s old but it’s perfect and I don’t think after dropping £3k+ that I can buy another £1200 RME interface.
> 
> That said..what interfaces are people using that are working (I’ve been reading mixed reports on other forums)?


I use an RME UFX+ and PreSonus Quantum in the Studio. Both work flawlessly!


----------



## khollister

Prof_lofi said:


> Is anyone running a M1 Pro with RME Fireface 400? I know it’s old but it’s perfect and I don’t think after dropping £3k+ that I can buy another £1200 RME interface.
> 
> That said..what interfaces are people using that are working (I’ve been reading mixed reports on other forums)?


UA Apollos here (X8 and Solo). RME BFP that I have also works fine


----------



## jonathanwright

Well mine has arrived (M1 Max 64GB) and I'm absolutely blown away.

After a day or so of installing, I just played through a track in Logic that struggled a fair bit on my 2013 iMac, needing a buffer of 512 to run well.

The new M1 just breezed through it with a buffer of 64. So smooth, no problems at all!

This is in Logic running in Rosetta mode, the project uses SINE, Kontakt, Spitfire Plugins and various synths, along with Ozone and various mastering plugins. All worked fine.


----------



## Zedcars

davidson said:


> When the hell are we getting an updated mac mini ffs!


A new Mac Mini is rumoured to be released within the next 5 weeks possibly on or around a March 8th event (along with the iPhone SE 5G).









New Low-Cost iPhone SE 5G and iPad Air Coming on March 8


Apple is planning to unveil an updated version of the iPhone SE with 5G and a new iPad Air at an event that's set to take place in March, reports...




www.macrumors.com





(3rd paragraph)

I really hope this is true. I’m going to jump on this immediately if so. I’m sure they’ll be very popular and will likely sell out their initial inventory within minutes leading to long wait times for delivery.


----------



## KEM

jonathanwright said:


> Well mine has arrived (M1 Max 64GB) and I'm absolutely blown away.
> 
> After a day or so of installing, I just played through a track in Logic that struggled a fair bit on my 2013 iMac, needing a buffer of 512 to run well.
> 
> The new M1 just breezed through it with a buffer of 64. So smooth, no problems at all!
> 
> This is in Logic running in Rosetta mode, the project uses SINE, Kontakt, Spitfire Plugins and various synths, along with Ozone and various mastering plugins. All worked fine.



I dream of this day, my buffer size is currently at 2048 or whatever the max is and my projects STILL stutter and drop out every second to the point where I can’t hear what I’m working on unless I freeze/render everything, I’m just waiting on the new Mac Pro at this point…


----------



## davidson

Zedcars said:


> I’m going to jump on this immediately if so. I’m sure they’ll be very popular and will likely sell out their initial inventory within minutes leading to long wait times for delivery.


Hey you, get in line, buddy!


----------



## Ivan M.

KEM said:


> I dream of this day, my buffer size is currently at 2048 or whatever the max is and my projects STILL stutter and drop out every second to the point where I can’t hear what I’m working on unless I freeze/render everything, I’m just waiting on the new Mac Pro at this point…


Oh the satisfaction when you get a new one, like taking off tight shoes. You’ll probably be the most happy buyer of all of us. My projects are not that big and although an improvement, not a stellar one.


----------



## gisligaldur

jonathanwright said:


> Well mine has arrived (M1 Max 64GB) and I'm absolutely blown away.
> 
> After a day or so of installing, I just played through a track in Logic that struggled a fair bit on my 2013 iMac, needing a buffer of 512 to run well.
> 
> The new M1 just breezed through it with a buffer of 64. So smooth, no problems at all!
> 
> This is in Logic running in Rosetta mode, the project uses SINE, Kontakt, Spitfire Plugins and various synths, along with Ozone and various mastering plugins. All worked fine.


Can I ask, did you set up the computer from scratch or from backup?


----------



## jonathanwright

gisligaldur said:


> Can I ask, did you set up the computer from scratch or from backup?


From scratch. After using it for so many years, my iMac probably has loads of unwanted junk on it, so I decided to take a bit more time and start with a clean slate.


----------



## BassClef

Zedcars said:


> A new Mac Mini is rumoured to be released within the next 5 weeks possibly on or around a March 8th event (along with the iPhone SE 5G).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Low-Cost iPhone SE 5G and iPad Air Coming on March 8
> 
> 
> Apple is planning to unveil an updated version of the iPhone SE with 5G and a new iPad Air at an event that's set to take place in March, reports...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macrumors.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (3rd paragraph)
> 
> I really hope this is true. I’m going to jump on this immediately if so. I’m sure they’ll be very popular and will likely sell out their initial inventory within minutes leading to long wait times for delivery.


Just a hobbyist here, but I hope this comes to fruition… MacMini, M1 ProMax, 64GB ram, large internal SSD. That will put the final nail in the coffin of my late 2014 iMac! I should start my search now for a 27” (or larger) monitor.


----------



## jonathanwright

I just downloaded the Soundtoys silicon beta and afterwards when I opened the iLok app I was promoted to download the native version of that too.

Things seem to be progressing quite quickly now.


----------



## SomeGuy

jonathanwright said:


> Well mine has arrived (M1 Max 64GB) and I'm absolutely blown away.
> 
> After a day or so of installing, I just played through a track in Logic that struggled a fair bit on my 2013 iMac, needing a buffer of 512 to run well.
> 
> The new M1 just breezed through it with a buffer of 64. So smooth, no problems at all!
> 
> This is in Logic running in Rosetta mode, the project uses SINE, Kontakt, Spitfire Plugins and various synths, along with Ozone and various mastering plugins. All worked fine.


is everything running off the internal drive? If not, what are you using?

BTW, my issues earlier in this thread I chased down to my external SSD. When it got hot, it throttled big time which would cause disk dropouts, so I returned it and purchased a Sandisk Extreme. Though you can save a few bucks buying the SSD and enclosure and building your own, given my issue I decided not to waste time and just get a preconfigured one. So far so good.


----------



## jonathanwright

SomeGuy said:


> is everything running off the internal drive? If not, what are you using?
> 
> BTW, my issues earlier in this thread I chased down to my external SSD. When it got hot, it throttled big time which would cause disk dropouts, so I returned it and purchased a Sandisk Extreme. Though you can save a few bucks buying the SSD and enclosure and building your own, given my issue I decided not to waste time and just get a preconfigured one. So far so good.


All of my synths and romplers such as Omnisphere are running on the internal drive (1TB), my sample libraries run from a thunderbolt Blackmagic Multidock, which has worked perfectly.


----------



## alcorey

Is there a good solution for running my current PCI cards with the MacBook?
I currently have 2 - UAD2 quad pci cards and also my Apogee pci card to run my Apogee Symphony converters, so I'd need 3 slots.
Is anyone using a similar setup with the new MacBooks?


----------



## aeliron

Fox said:


> I've been wating an effing year for these laptops to drop, hanging on to my puttering 2015 15" MBP, so I'm ecstatic with the new MBP offerings. (I was so afraid they would max out at 32MB ram.)
> 
> At first, I ordered the 16" with 64MB ram and a 1TB SSD, but then realized I should just bite the bullet and go for the 8TB SSD (thanks to this damn thread!!), so I cancelled my first order and splurged! I'm very excited. We will see how this machine performs in the wild, but for me, a portable rig that has this much power is exactly what I've been waiting for. And I've been saving to spend the dough, so even if it is too much money, all I can say, is "ef it, I'm in!"


Using a 32 Gb Pro with 4 TB and so nice to have a workable solution in one laptop ... depending on project size, of course.


----------



## aeliron

samphony said:


> As Charlie i went full on with the 16“ 64GB 8TB SSD and am looking forward going back to a hybrid workspace. Meaning starting cues and ideas or even full tracks at home under the shower 😂 and once in the studio connecting one thunderbolt cable and be connected with 4 screens + mac mini vep machines and pt stem system if needed.
> 
> Crazy times we are living in.


Wait. You went for the MBP's waterproofing option?


----------



## rnb_2

alcorey said:


> Is there a good solution for running my current PCI cards with the MacBook?
> I currently have 2 - UAD2 quad pci cards and also my Apogee pci card to run my Apogee Symphony converters, so I'd need 3 slots.
> Is anyone using a similar setup with the new MacBooks?


You'd need some Thunderbolt PCI expansion boxes of some sort - Sonnet and OWC are a couple well-known options. I have the OWC-owned Akitio Node Duo attached to my M1 MacBook Air, with a card-mounted SATA SSD in one slot, and an NVMe SSD card in the other. Sonnet has a 3-slot option in their DuoModo line.


----------



## alcorey

rnb_2 said:


> You'd need some Thunderbolt PCI expansion boxes of some sort - Sonnet and OWC are a couple well-known options. I have the OWC-owned Akitio Node Duo attached to my M1 MacBook Air, with a card-mounted SATA SSD in one slot, and an NVMe SSD card in the other. Sonnet has a 3-slot option in their DuoModo line.


Would there be any hit in performance compared to residing internally in the pci slots in my current mac pro?


----------



## rnb_2

alcorey said:


> Would there be any hit in performance compared to residing internally in the pci slots in my current mac pro?


Thunderbolt does limit total bandwidth, so there probably is a theoretical performance penalty, but whether you'd notice it in use depends on the cards and how much bandwidth they need. Total non-display bandwidth over Thunderbolt 3 & 4 is 28Gb/s, which would be a lot for audio-only data (which lives just fine with USB2 for lighter jobs), but I'm not familiar enough with the requirements for your UAD and Apogee cards to say for sure.


----------



## jcrosby

alcorey said:


> Would there be any hit in performance compared to residing internally in the pci slots in my current mac pro?


Those UAD PCI cards are single land PCIe 2.0. Basically the connection speed shouldn't factor in at all with thunderbolt. I would just research any case you're thinking of before assuming anything, and UAD actually have some recommended ones linked in the support article below...



https://help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/articles/206439113-UAD-2-PCIe-Card-System-Requirements


----------



## Jett Hitt

So here in about three weeks and some change, supposedly the Mac Mini Pro is going to drop. I had my heart set on an iMac Pro, but jeez I am tired of waiting. I suppose that the iMac could have more than 64GB of RAM, but the price might also be your firstborn. I have a 5,1 sitting here with 128 GB to slave and another iMac with 32 GB if I really needed it. Is there any real reason to hold out for an iMac Pro? I have an Apple Cinema display to plug the mini into. Thoughts?


----------



## alcorey

rnb_2 said:


> Thunderbolt does limit total bandwidth, so there probably is a theoretical performance penalty, but whether you'd notice it in use depends on the cards and how much bandwidth they need. Total non-display bandwidth over Thunderbolt 3 & 4 is 28Gb/s, which would be a lot for audio-only data (which lives just fine with USB2 for lighter jobs), but I'm not familiar enough with the requirements for your UAD and Apogee cards to say for sure.


Thanks rnb_2 and jcrosby - but Holy Whacko! they are $$$$$$Pricey!!!
Maybe I should look into just buying a Thunderbolt 3 UAD Octo Satellite and sell my two UAD Quad PCI cards - probably spend a lot less overall than if I were to buy the OWC, Magma, Netstor or Sonnet PCI boxes for close to a GRAND


----------



## KEM

Jett Hitt said:


> So here in about three weeks and some change, supposedly the Mac Mini Pro is going to drop. I had my heart set on an iMac Pro, but jeez I am tired of waiting. I suppose that the iMac could have more than 64GB of RAM, but the price might also be your firstborn. I have a 5,1 sitting here with 128 GB to slave and another iMac with 32 GB if I really needed it. Is there any real reason to hold out for an iMac Pro? I have an Apple Cinema display to plug the mini into. Thoughts?



Go with the Mini, your old one will be a perfect slave machine so the Mini will be just fine, and much cheaper than an iMac


----------



## Nachivnik

I agree. Go for the Mini if it comes in the Spring with 64GB RAM and use your own screen.

Maybe a 128GB iMac won't be too expensive if they are able to give us an M1Max with double the RAM capacity (rather than requiring an M1Max Duo or M1Max Quad as have been discussed in the rumors). That would depend on the limitations of the chip design. Maybe the iMac is being held up due to supply chain issues. So many unknowns.


----------



## KEM

Nachivnik said:


> I agree. Go for the Mini if it comes in the Spring with 64GB RAM and use your own screen.
> 
> Maybe a 128GB iMac won't be too expensive if they are able to give us an M1Max with double the RAM capacity (rather than requiring an M1Max Duo or M1Max Quad as have been discussed in the rumors). That would depend on the limitations of the chip design. Maybe the iMac is being held up due to supply chain issues. So many unknowns.



iMac is being pushed back because they’re having issues getting the mini LED screens, so you’re correct that it is a supply chain issue, current estimate is a late summer announcement now


----------



## Ivan M.

Running both Logic + Kontakt natively (after the latest update) proves to be a disaster. A project with 21 tracks of some modelled libraries (previously working fine). Just sitting there, being stopped, all cores are at 60%. At playback it crackles, there are hanging notes, and Logic keeps reseting playback from the latest position. Restarting Logic and disabling antivirus didn't help. Machine freshly booted. It's all falling apart.

Switched back to Logic rosetta and it seems to be working fine again. Not sure where the problem is. We are going to wait for that native support...

Need to test Reaper native. Initially it handled 128 instances of Spire like it's nothing, I just got bored of duplicating tracks, it just worked. Kontakt seemed to work too, but I need to open a bigger project.


----------



## Vik

Ivan M. said:


> Running both Logic + Kontakt natively (after the latest update) proves to be a disaster. A project with 21 tracks of some modelled libraries (previously working fine).


That's surprising because several Kontakt 6.7 betatesters have mentioned that the last betas/release candidate worked fine.


----------



## khollister

Vik said:


> That's surprising because several Kontakt 6.7 betatesters have mentioned that the last betas/release candidate worked fine.


Agreed. I was in the beta and both the scalability and load times were way better than 6.6 under Rosetta. The load time differences for large projects was astronomically better. I had 100 tracks of SSS Performance Legato running last night as a test on the released version and got tired of adding tracks.

I also got 480 tracks of @jcrosby Albion test project that loaded in under 1 min. I only managed about 320 tracks with 6.6 and the load time was over 50 min and the project crashed about half the time. Big difference!

Most people report great results with the M1Pro/Max and Logic, but every once in a while an outlier seems to have huge problems with the same SW that others are using successfully. Usually a reinstall of Logic or MacOS is suggested but I have never seen any followup on what (if anything) worked.


----------



## rnb_2

Ivan M. said:


> Running both Logic + Kontakt natively (after the latest update) proves to be a disaster. A project with 21 tracks of some modelled libraries (previously working fine). Just sitting there, being stopped, all cores are at 60%. At playback it crackles, there are hanging notes, and Logic keeps reseting playback from the latest position. Restarting Logic and disabling antivirus didn't help. Machine freshly booted. It's all falling apart.
> 
> Switched back to Logic rosetta and it seems to be working fine again. Not sure where the problem is. We are going to wait for that native support...
> 
> Need to test Reaper native. Initially it handled 128 instances of Spire like it's nothing, I just got bored of duplicating tracks, it just worked. Kontakt seemed to work too, but I need to open a bigger project.


This is feeling like one of those outlier situations, where there is something in the system setup that isn't working right (similar to what @Dajusch was experiencing a few weeks back). I wish I knew what to tell you to do to fix it, short of starting over from scratch with Logic or the whole OS (as @khollister notes, others with a similar issue haven't reported back on if/how they fixed it). It's definitely not normal.


----------



## Ivan M.

No chance I reinstall stuff. I can only restart the program or the machine, and if that doesn't help, then that's bad programming and I'll simply abandon it. 

Reaper seems to work fine even with kontakt vst (no m1 support yet, single threaded settings) in the separate host process. Logic itself is full of bugs. I'll check the project again and see if there's a plugin in the chain that might be messing things up.


----------



## PJMorgan

I had a similar experience just after installing the beta but rescanning the plugins & restarting the system sorted it. Before this it seemed to be in some kind of limbo between the previous install & the beta because the plugin manager had the previous version listed as installed but kontakt about verified that beta was installed.


----------



## PJMorgan

Ivan M. said:


> No chance I reinstall stuff. I can only restart the program or the machine, and if that doesn't help, then that's bad programming and I'll simply abandon it.
> 
> Reaper seems to work fine even with kontakt vst (no m1 support yet, single threaded settings) in the separate host process. Logic itself is full of bugs. I'll check the project again and see if there's a plugin in the chain that might be messing things up.


I think there's actually something up with Logic especially since v10.7.2 because it hangs on my mb air every time there's a major plugin scan & has to be force quit.


----------



## PJMorgan

Is anyone having problems with the new 6.7 release crashing? It completely crashes on my m1 mb air in Live, Logic & standalone, the previous betas were fine but I didn't get a chance to check out the RC before release.


----------



## khollister

PJMorgan said:


> Is anyone having problems with the new 6.7 release crashing? It completely crashes on my m1 mb air in Live, Logic & standalone, the previous betas were fine but I didn't get a chance to check out the RC before release.


Not so far. I had no crashing issues with b3, RC1 or 6.7.0 so far in Logic. I have spot checked in S1 and standalone but not extensively. Are you on Big Sur or Monterey? I am on 12.2.1.


----------



## samphony

Vik said:


> That's surprising because several Kontakt 6.7 betatesters have mentioned that the last betas/release candidate worked fine.


Yes for me working mostly with all things natively proved to be much more efficient.


----------



## samphony

Ivan M. said:


> Running both Logic + Kontakt natively (after the latest update) proves to be a disaster. A project with 21 tracks of some modelled libraries (previously working fine). Just sitting there, being stopped, all cores are at 60%. At playback it crackles, there are hanging notes, and Logic keeps reseting playback from the latest position. Restarting Logic and disabling antivirus didn't help. Machine freshly booted. It's all falling apart.
> 
> Switched back to Logic rosetta and it seems to be working fine again. Not sure where the problem is. We are going to wait for that native support...
> 
> Need to test Reaper native. Initially it handled 128 instances of Spire like it's nothing, I just got bored of duplicating tracks, it just worked. Kontakt seemed to work too, but I need to open a bigger project.


Would bd interested what’s causing this. 

I don’t have issues like you describe can you write down a step by dtep instruction? Or make a video? Maybe it’s another plugin causing this???


----------



## PJMorgan

khollister said:


> Not so far. I had no crashing issues with b3, RC1 or 6.7.0 so far in Logic. I have spot checked in S1 and standalone but not extensively. Are you on Big Sur or Monterey? I am on 12.2.1.


Yes it's a strange one, the betas before all worked just fine. I'm on monterey 12.2.1, I've even tried deleting the plugins & reinstalling but it's still happening. Reverting back to the beta for the vst3 & standalone & leaving the au at 6.7.0 fixes it but it's hardly an ideal solution. I'll just have to report it to NI & see what can be done.


----------



## khollister

PJMorgan said:


> Yes it's a strange one, the betas before all worked just fine. I'm on monterey 12.2.1, I've even tried deleting the plugins & reinstalling but it's still happening. Reverting back to the beta for the vst3 & standalone & leaving the au at 6.7.0 fixes it but it's hardly an ideal solution. I'll just have to report it to NI & see what can be done.


Wait - so downgrading the VST3 and standalone to b3 fixed the issue with the AU crashing Logic?!!


----------



## Ivan M.

samphony said:


> Would bd interested what’s causing this.
> 
> I don’t have issues like you describe can you write down a step by dtep instruction? Or make a video? Maybe it’s another plugin causing this???


I've removed all plugins from the project but Kontakt, increased buffer size to max (1024), disabled multithreading in Kontakt, deleted most of the tracks in the project and it's still falling apart.

When running as x86 (through Rosetta) Kontakt is hosted inside Logic. However, when running native, it's hosted in a separate process (AUHostingService). Something is extremely inefficient here. It simply doesn't work even with 2 tracks.

Seems to work perfectly in Reaper, which hosts everything in-process, and there seems to be no way of telling Logic to do the same.


----------



## PJMorgan

khollister said:


> Wait - so downgrading the VST3 and standalone to b3 fixed the issue with the AU crashing Logic?!!


Yes when the installer launchs you're given the option not to install the au for the beta so then only the vsts & standalone is installed. I tried this & it does indeed leave the latest 6.7.0 au in place but replaces everything else with the beta & after doing this kontakt works again.


----------



## samphony

Ivan M. said:


> I've removed all plugins from the project but Kontakt, increased buffer size to max (1024), disabled multithreading in Kontakt, deleted most of the tracks in the project and it's still falling apart.
> 
> When running as x86 (through Rosetta) Kontakt is hosted inside Logic. However, when running native, it's hosted in a separate process (AUHostingService). Something is extremely inefficient here. It simply doesn't work even with 2 tracks.
> 
> Seems to work perfectly in Reaper, which hosts everything in-process, and there seems to be no way of telling Logic to do the same.


Ok. AuHostingService is the native silicon hosting service. AuCompatibilityService is the wrapper to host intel plugins.

So which one is it?

Also make sure to set logics multi threading to automatic! And lower the buffer size to 512.

You want to make sure Logic doesn’t use the two efficiency cores for performance tasks!


----------



## khollister

samphony said:


> You want to make sure Logic doesn’t use the two efficiency cores for performance tasks!


Actually, I consistently get higher track counts using all the cores. There seems to be a line of thought that Logic may use one of the efficiency cores for the live thread but I have never encountered that so far.


----------



## PJMorgan

So I got the Kontakt crashing sorted thanks to the very helpful NI beta team. It turns out it was somehow being caused by the database file that stores where the libraries are for the left pane. Just removing this file fixed the problem.

I can't believe how quick the NI beta team were in getting this sorted for me. All I did was send a few crash reports.


----------



## khollister

PJMorgan said:


> So I got the Kontakt crashing sorted thanks to the very helpful NI beta team. It turns out it was somehow being caused by the database file that stores where the libraries are for the left pane. Just removing this file fixed the problem.
> 
> I can't believe how quick the NI beta team were in getting this sorted for me. All I did was send a few crash reports.


----------



## khollister

khollister said:


> Actually, I consistently get higher track counts using all the cores. There seems to be a line of thought that Logic may use one of the efficiency cores for the live thread but I have never encountered that so far.


I have to backtrack on this. I was arming multiple tracks today to play instruments simultaneously and had terrible spiking problems (and interestingly with one thread indicated per instrument). When I changed to Automatic, I still had multiple threads but much lower indicated CPU.

So it appears you can trigger the efficiency cores for live tracks. I'm going to leave it on Automatic for a while and see how I fare.


----------



## RSK

Downloaded 6.7 a few days ago, and that went pretty smooth. Downloaded the M1 beta versions of some Spitfire libraries I have and that was anything but smooth. Logic refused to recognize them for about an hour until I finally managed. Spitfire don't provide an installer for these, they just give you the VSTs or components and expect you to put them in the correct folders.

Now everything seems to be fine. Logic, Kontakt, Spitfire, and Omnisphere all working together in native mode. Once that was working I downloaded the M1 versions of Cinematic Rooms and the Vahalla reverbs I have, and those also seem to be fine. 

The Performance Meter is notably lower with all of this compared to Rosetta.


----------



## samphony

khollister said:


> So it appears you can trigger the efficiency cores for live tracks. I'm going to leave it on Automatic for a while and see how I fare.


Now you see why I suggested that in the first place 😉


----------



## Vik

RSK said:


> The Performance Meter is notably lower with all of this compared to Rosetta.


Do you by any chance have any idea about how the performance meter would look if you run the same project on an 2020 i7/i9 iMac or similar?


----------



## RSK

Vik said:


> Do you by any chance have any idea about how the performance meter would look if you run the same project on an 2020 i7/i9 iMac or similar?


Sorry, but no. I bought this MacBook Air many months ago when I decided to go all-laptop. Its predecessor was an i7 Mac Mini with 64G, but that's been gone for a while.


----------



## jonathanwright

I can't seem to get the Synchron Brass player to work in Logic.

The plugin loads, the samples load, but it doesn't respond to incoming MIDI, although it does when I press notes directly on the plugin UI keyboard.

It works fine as standalone and in Cubase. I also have one of the pianos installed, and that works without a problem.

Any ideas what it could be?


----------



## jbuhler

I’m sure you checked this but just to be sure, is your midi channel set right? I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve had this be the culprit to this kind of issue.


----------



## khollister

jbuhler said:


> I’m sure you checked this but just to be sure, is your midi channel set right? I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve had this be the culprit to this kind of issue.


Yeah, as far as I know (at least I couldn't find any way to set MIDI channels/ports inside Synchron player just now) the plugin Synchron player is not multi-timbral and responds to whatever MIDI channel is used. Assuming other plugins work OK in Logic, The MIDI In port & channel in the Logic track inspector Settings section is the most likely culprit.

When you try to play your keyboard, does the MIDI monitor in the Logic LCD display channel, MIDI note number and note?

And go course the obvious - is the track record armed? And you haven't inadvertently Option-clicked the on/off button for the track?

UPDATE: Interestingly enough, I was fiddling with Synchron player and it appears it only responds to MIDI channel 1. I normally have my MIDI port/channel set to All in Logic unless I am using something multi-timbral, so I never realized this. Kinda odd since there is no way to set incoming MIDI channel in the player that I can see - I assumed it was omni.


----------



## khollister

khollister said:


> Yeah, as far as I know (at least I couldn't find any way to set MIDI channels/ports inside Synchron player just now) the plugin Synchron player is not multi-timbral and responds to whatever MIDI channel is used. Assuming other plugins work OK in Logic, The MIDI In port & channel in the Logic track inspector Settings section is the most likely culprit.
> 
> When you try to play your keyboard, does the MIDI monitor in the Logic LCD display channel, MIDI note number and note?
> 
> And go course the obvious - is the track record armed? And you haven't inadvertently Option-clicked the on/off button for the track?
> 
> UPDATE: Interestingly enough, I was fiddling with Synchron player and it appears it only responds to MIDI channel 1. I normally have my MIDI port/channel set to All in Logic unless I am using something multi-timbral, so I never realized this. Kinda odd since there is no way to set incoming MIDI channel in the player that I can see - I assumed it was omni.


OK, now I'm having senior moment. I normally don't fool with MIDI channel much since I tend to not use multi-timbral modes even when the instrument supports them, but I'm certain that Logic would re-channelize incoming MIDI events based on the MIDI In Channel setting in the track inspector. E.g., my MIDI keyboard transmits ch 1, but changing the MIDI In Channel to 2 would re-channelize events to channel 2, right?

No longer works with Logic 10.7.2 on my M1Max! Am I going insane or is this some new bug in Logic?


----------



## jonathanwright

Thanks for the tips guys, yes my channels were fine.

I figured it out. It doesn't work when Logic is in 'Open in Rosetta' mode, but does in native.


----------



## khollister

jonathanwright said:


> Thanks for the tips guys, yes my channels were fine.
> 
> I figured it out. It doesn't work when Logic is in 'Open in Rosetta' mode, but does in native.


???? I just tried it with Logic in Rosetta here - Synchron Brass loads and plays fine from my MIDI keyboard. Something is wrong on your end.


----------



## khollister

OK - I was definitely having a senior moment. It is the MIDI Out Channel control in Track Inspector that rechannelizes incoming MIDI (and that works fine). And the Synchron Player is definitely omni in - responds to any MIDI channel.

My excuse is I actually rarely use multi-timbral in Logic 

So I have no idea why @jonathanwright is having trouble with Logic in Rosetta but not in native.


----------



## jonathanwright

khollister said:


> ???? I just tried it with Logic in Rosetta here - Synchron Brass loads and plays fine from my MIDI keyboard. Something is wrong on your end.


How odd.

I’ve switched between native and Rosetta several times and can keep reproducing it.

Interestingly, I have a similar problem with the Spitfire player, but this time in native mode - so the reverse. In that case it can be solved by pressing refresh though. Spitfire say they’re aware of the issue and a fix will be ready soon. So maybe there is something going on with Logic in certain configurations.

It’s an M1 Max.


----------



## khollister

jonathanwright said:


> It’s an M1 Max.


So is mine


----------



## jonathanwright

I might try fiddling around with buffer and project sample rates to see if that affects anything.

As I say, the VSL piano I have works without issue. So it’s all very curious.


----------



## jonathanwright

Nope, none of that made a difference, so I’ll contact VSL support.


----------



## BassClef

Just a hobbyist here, but I'm hoping for a March 8 announcement of... a new Mac Mini Pro... (M1 ProMax, 64GB ram and large internal SSD) That should put the final nail in the coffin of my late 2014 iMac! I should now begin my search for a 27” (or larger) monitor... UNLESS... what are the odds that a more powerful version (more than this new Mac Mini) of the new iMac Pro will be right around the corner. Or will the new iMac Pro have the same "guts" as the current MacBook Pros and the new high end mini? I'm guessing NOTHING faster until we see the new Mac Pro near the end of the year.


----------



## KEM

BassClef said:


> Just a hobbyist here, but I'm hoping for a March 8 announcement of... a new Mac Mini Pro... (M1 ProMax, 64GB ram and large internal SSD) That should put the final nail in the coffin of my late 2014 iMac! I should now begin my search for a 27” (or larger) monitor... UNLESS... what are the odds that a more powerful version (more than this new Mac Mini) of the new iMac Pro will be right around the corner. Or will the new iMac Pro have the same "guts" as the current MacBook Pros and the new high end mini? I'm guessing NOTHING faster until we see the new Mac Pro near the end of the year.



The new Mac Mini is the most likely Max make to premiere at the March event, if so I’ll absolutely be getting it


----------



## rnb_2

BassClef said:


> Just a hobbyist here, but I'm hoping for a March 8 announcement of... a new Mac Mini Pro... (M1 ProMax, 64GB ram and large internal SSD) That should put the final nail in the coffin of my late 2014 iMac! I should now begin my search for a 27” (or larger) monitor... UNLESS... what are the odds that a more powerful version (more than this new Mac Mini) of the new iMac Pro will be right around the corner. Or will the new iMac Pro have the same "guts" as the current MacBook Pros and the new high end mini? I'm guessing NOTHING faster until we see the new Mac Pro near the end of the year.


There are certainly people who are hoping that the upcoming dual M1 Max (destined for the Mac Pro later this year) might make an appearance in an iMac Pro, but no rumors to that effect. There is a rumor of a M1 Pro/Max with an extra couple performance cores appearing in the iMac Pro, which seems a bit odd to me (since all of the rumors about the M1 Max dual/quad scale from the MacBook Pro core counts), but is nonetheless possible.

Three new Macs recently popped up in a regulatory database in Russia, so there might be as many as three introduced in March. The most likely candidates are the pro Mac mini, a laptop (M2 13" MacBook Pro and/or MacBook Air), and maybe something else. Mark Gurman at Bloomberg, who probably has the best overall sources, doesn't seem to have a solid idea of when the big iMac is coming, beyond "this year". Other sources that specialize in particular components (like displays) are pretty consistently pointing to summer or later.


----------



## Nachivnik

rnb_2 said:


> There are certainly people who are hoping that the upcoming dual M1 Max (destined for the Mac Pro later this year) might make an appearance in an iMac Pro, but no rumors to that effect. There is a rumor of a M1 Pro/Max with an extra couple performance cores appearing in the iMac Pro, which seems a bit odd to me (since all of the rumors about the M1 Max dual/quad scale from the MacBook Pro core counts), but is nonetheless possible.
> 
> Three new Macs recently popped up in a regulatory database in Russia, so there might be as many as three introduced in March. The most likely candidates are the pro Mac mini, a laptop (M2 13" MacBook Pro and/or MacBook Air), and maybe something else. Mark Gurman at Bloomberg, who probably has the best overall sources, doesn't seem to have a solid idea of when the big iMac is coming, beyond "this year". Other sources that specialize in particular components (like displays) are pretty consistently pointing to summer or later.











Apple Readies New MacBooks and iMacs for Part Three of Overhaul


As Apple gears up for its first product launch event of the year, the spotlight turns to its 2022 Mac plans. Also: More top Peloton executives leave as part of its shake-up, and iOS 16 development ramps up.




www.bloomberg.com





Gurman's predictions (quoted below), if true, mean a Mini with a maximum of 32GB RAM (M1 Pro) and an iMac with a maximum of 64GB RAM (M1 Max) - unless some new M1 Pro and M1 Max variants are coming which support more RAM. Maybe M2 chips will support more RAM in each category, but he specifically names M1 variants.

Gurman: "In order to figure out which Macs may appear next month, let’s first break down all the new models that I’m expecting during 2022:

A new Mac mini with an M1 Pro chip
A 13-inch MacBook Pro with an M2 chip, to succeed the 2020 model and sit below the 14-inch and 16-inch MacBook Pro in the line
A Mac mini with an M2 chip
A 24-inch iMac with an M2 chip
A redesigned MacBook Air with an M2 chip
A larger iMac Pro with M1 Pro and M1 Max chip options
A half-sized Mac Pro, the first with Apple Silicon, with the equivalent of either two or four M1 Max chips"


----------



## wayne_rowley

Nachivnik said:


> Apple Readies New MacBooks and iMacs for Part Three of Overhaul
> 
> 
> As Apple gears up for its first product launch event of the year, the spotlight turns to its 2022 Mac plans. Also: More top Peloton executives leave as part of its shake-up, and iOS 16 development ramps up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloomberg.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gurman's predictions (quoted below), if true, mean a Mini with a maximum of 32GB RAM (M1 Pro) and an iMac with a maximum of 64GB RAM (M1 Max) - unless some new M1 Pro and M1 Max variants are coming which support more RAM. Maybe M2 chips will support more RAM in each category, but he specifically names M1 variants.


A Mac Mini with only the M1 Pro chip supporting 32GB of RAM would be a disappointment! I hope that Apple give us an M1 Max variant as well.

Wayne


----------



## rnb_2

wayne_rowley said:


> A Mac Mini with only the M1 Pro chip supporting 32GB of RAM would be a disappointment! I hope that Apple give us an M1 Max variant as well.
> 
> Wayne


While that's certainly possible, I don't know if Gurman's sources would be able to give him enough granularity on the Mac mini to know that there won't be a Max version. It would be disappointing for the maximum RAM to drop from 64GB to 32 there - the only rationale I can see is if they make size (a slimmer, redesigned case) a selling point at the cost of cooling capacity (but they can put a Max in the 14" MBP, so even that seems unlikely).

Generally speaking, the more suppliers involved in a particular model, the more potential sources, so the mini is theoretically the most opaque Mac for anyone to predict, since there is no display provider to see and leak schematics.


----------



## BassClef

wayne_rowley said:


> A Mac Mini with only the M1 Pro chip supporting 32GB of RAM would be a disappointment! I hope that Apple give us an M1 Max variant as well.
> 
> Wayne


...not to mention a step backwards, since the current high end MacMini supports 64GB ram!


----------



## wayne_rowley

rnb_2 said:


> While that's certainly possible, I don't know if Gurman's sources would be able to give him enough granularity on the Mac mini to know that there won't be a Max version. It would be disappointing for the maximum RAM to drop from 64GB to 32 there - the only rationale I can see is if they make size (a slimmer, redesigned case) a selling point at the cost of cooling capacity (but they can put a Max in the 14" MBP, so even that seems unlikely).


The other rationale would be Apple positioning the Mini back as a small/low powered entry-level machine. I would imagine that very few Mini users actually need more than 32GB or RAM, other than us sample library composers.

We'll have to wait for another couple of weeks to know for sure, but if it is the case that Apple are only supplying computers that support more than 32GB of RAM in either machines with built-in screens (MacBook Pro, high-end iMac) or a massively expensive Mac Pro desktop, then I think my next music computer may be a PC.

Wayne


----------



## rnb_2

wayne_rowley said:


> We'll have to wait for another couple of weeks to know for sure, but if it is the case that Apple are only supplying computers that support more than 32GB of RAM in either machines with built-in screens (MacBook Pro, high-end iMac) or a massively expensive Mac Pro desktop, then I think my next music computer may be a PC.


I knew you were going to say that 

We'll have to wait and see. It would be disappointing if it is limited to 32GB, even though that would probably suit me reasonably well - at this point, I'm a noodler, not a composer, so the RAM issue really doesn't hit me, though that 24-core GPU would get me back in the neighborhood of the Vega 56 eGPU I had hooked up to my Intel mini.


----------



## wayne_rowley

rnb_2 said:


> I knew you were going to say that
> 
> We'll have to wait and see. It would be disappointing if it is limited to 32GB, even though that would probably suit me reasonably well - at this point, I'm a noodler, not a composer, so the RAM issue really doesn't hit me, though that 24-core GPU would get me back in the neighborhood of the Vega 56 eGPU I had hooked up to my Intel mini.


If it’s limited to the M1 Pro, you won‘t have the 24 core GPU - only the 14 or 16 core, if they offer that as an option. Better than the Intel GPU of the 2018 though I agree.

Thing is, with only 32 GB of RAM you’re unlikely to tax the low-end 8 core M1 Pro before the RAM limit is reached. With sample libs anyway, maybe different with soft synths.

Wayne


----------



## rnb_2

wayne_rowley said:


> If it’s limited to the M1 Pro, you won‘t have the 24 core GPU - only the 14 or 16 core, if they offer that as an option. Better than the Intel GPU of the 2018 though I agree.
> 
> Thing is, with only 32 GB of RAM you’re unlikely to tax the low-end 8 core M1 Pro before the RAM limit is reached. With sample libs anyway, maybe different with soft synths.
> 
> Wayne


Yeah, I should have been clearer - I'm not looking for 64GB of RAM, so the extra GPU cores are the only thing I'd potentially miss if there is no miniMax. And while I'd probably be fine with that 8-core Pro, once you add the RAM and storage, the cost of getting the 10-core chip is minimal, so I'd go that route for longevity.


----------



## khollister

wayne_rowley said:


> ... or a massively expensive Mac Pro desktop, ...
> 
> Wayne


If the rumored Mac Pro Lite (not to be confused with the equally theoretical Mac mini Pro) turns out to be real, I strongly suspect that while expensive, the price will not be anywhere near the eye-popping prices for the 16+ core Mac Pro 7.1's. I also think that same machine may preclude the existence of a Mini with the M1Max and 64GB of RAM. We'll see what March brings (likely either updated Airs and 13 MBP or higher-end Mini's).


----------



## RSK

It’s finally here……. 😁


----------



## Flyo

Is good enough the 14 inch MacBook Pro M1 Pro 10 core 16 GPU with 32gb Ram, or the 32gb of ram on Max version will handle better orchestral and heavy audio work with the 400 memory bandwidth?


----------



## rnb_2

Flyo said:


> Is good enough the 14 inch MacBook Pro M1 Pro 10 core 16 GPU with 32gb Ram, or the 32gb of ram on Max version will handle better orchestral and heavy audio work with the 400 memory bandwidth?


For big templates, the 64GB of RAM will certainly help, but the higher RAM limit and ability to drive more displays are the only big reasons to go with the Max vs the Pro for audio work. The extra bandwidth is for video that uses all of those extra GPU cores - audio won't stress things nearly as much.


----------



## Flyo

Memory swap isn’t there to help of thru? I could have a much large session with it? I change my order to 32gb ram with 10core 14inch. The price of the max 64gb ram reach the limit to importing.


----------



## DSorah

RSK said:


> It’s finally here……. 😁


When did you place your order? How was Apple's estimate for its arrival? I'm waiting until mid-March for mine.


----------



## rnb_2

Flyo said:


> Memory swap isn’t there to help of thru? I could have a much large session with it? I change my order to 32gb ram with 10core 14inch. The price of the max 64gb ram reach the limit to importing.


Swap isn't magic, but it will keep things working for longer than many expected - I wouldn't treat it as a replacement for RAM.

How much RAM do you have now? My feeling is that people who need 64GB *know* that they need it - for everyone else, it's either "nice to have" or might give a bit longer useful lifespan for the computer.


----------



## Flyo

rnb_2 said:


> Swap isn't magic, but it will keep things working for longer than many expected - I wouldn't treat it as a replacement for RAM.
> 
> How much RAM do you have now? My feeling is that people who need 64GB *know* that they need it - for everyone else, it's either "nice to have" or might give a bit longer useful lifespan for the computer.


72GB (could handle 128gb) on intel i9 iMac. This configuration gives me some headroom when working on longer sessions with multiples mics loaded. Benchmark on single and multicores with the M1 Pro or Max certainly surpass the iMac on almost every level, except on memory ram department. Going for 64gb Max exceed the importing feed so is no option for me. The Swap function will destroy the SSD on it? (1TB is in my order)


----------



## rnb_2

Flyo said:


> 72GB (could handle 128gb) on intel i9 iMac. This configuration gives me some headroom when working on longer sessions with multiples mics loaded. Benchmark on single and multicores with the M1 Pro or Max certainly surpass the iMac on almost every level, except on memory ram department. Going for 64gb Max exceed the importing feed so is no option for me. The Swap function will destroy the SSD on it? (1TB is in my order)


I don't think there's any worry about destroying the SSD via swap, but I would have some concern if this is really going to be enough of an upgrade to justify unless you really need to be mobile. If you don't need to be mobile, why not wait a couple weeks and see if there is a 64GB M1 Max Mac mini announced?


----------



## Flyo

rnb_2 said:


> I don't think there's any worry about destroying the SSD via swap, but I would have some concern if this is really going to be enough of an upgrade to justify unless you really need to be mobile. If you don't need to be mobile, why not wait a couple weeks and see if there is a 64GB M1 Max Mac mini announced?


Thanks for the replies. I need to have one mobile, so this is it. I’m thinking to get a MacMini with apple silicon after if the new one will overpass my actual iMac then. Or another way is to have one main powerful one mac mini to be as mobile posible, only when I need it, and a Macbook Air to travel and open sessions with careful frozen disable track options. I think the first choice is redundant if the new macmini or even my iMac is not more powerful than this M1 Pro MacBook. Why would I have 2 machines right?


----------



## aeliron

Flyo said:


> 72GB (could handle 128gb) on intel i9 iMac. This configuration gives me some headroom when working on longer sessions with multiples mics loaded. Benchmark on single and multicores with the M1 Pro or Max certainly surpass the iMac on almost every level, except on memory ram department. Going for 64gb Max exceed the importing feed so is no option for me. The Swap function will destroy the SSD on it? (1TB is in my order)


I think some here have found that 64 gb on M1 is not the same limiter as on previous processors, due to unified architecture. But again depends on your libraries, players, project size.


----------



## rnb_2

Flyo said:


> Thanks for the replies. I need to have one mobile, so this is it. I’m thinking to get a MacMini with apple silicon after if the new one will overpass my actual iMac then. Or another way is to have one main powerful one mac mini to be as mobile posible, only when I need it, and a Macbook Air to travel and open sessions with careful frozen disable track options. I think the first choice is redundant if the new macmini or even my iMac is not more powerful than this M1 Pro MacBook. Why would I have 2 machines right?


If you need mobility and the Max with 64GB is too expensive (which I certainly understand), then I think you're doing what you need to do. There are things you can do to lower the RAM footprint, and the processor will definitely be an upgrade on the iMac. Any 10-core version of the M1 Pro/Max is a remarkable machine - faster than all iMac Pros with <18 cores, all Mac Pros with <16 cores, faster than any Mac ever made in single core tasks, lasts for hours and hours on battery, fantastic screen, almost never hear the fans.

Having one machine instead of two is certainly easier - I currently have both an M1 Mac mini and an M1 MacBook Air, and keeping everything synced up is a headache that I'm hoping to do away with after the next product announcement, with either a faster laptop or a faster mini, depending on exactly what is released in March.


----------



## RSK

DSorah said:


> When did you place your order? How was Apple's estimate for its arrival? I'm waiting until mid-March for mine.


I ordered it back in late December, and Apple's estimate of when it would get here was almost exact.


----------



## HeliaVox

RSK said:


> Downloaded 6.7 a few days ago, and that went pretty smooth. Downloaded the M1 beta versions of some Spitfire libraries I have and that was anything but smooth. Logic refused to recognize them for about an hour until I finally managed. Spitfire don't provide an installer for these, they just give you the VSTs or components and expect you to put them in the correct folders.
> 
> Now everything seems to be fine. Logic, Kontakt, Spitfire, and Omnisphere all working together in native mode. Once that was working I downloaded the M1 versions of Cinematic Rooms and the Vahalla reverbs I have, and those also seem to be fine.
> 
> The Performance Meter is notably lower with all of this compared to Rosetta.


Which is why I'm waiting for the official installers instead of futzing around myself. I do have to say 1.5 of the BBCSO Arm version is nice.


----------



## KEM

Does anyone else miss the light up Apple logo on the back of the MacBook screens? My 2015 has it and it was always a design feature I really loved, I hate that it’s gone


----------



## rnb_2

KEM said:


> Does anyone else miss the light up Apple logo on the back of the MacBook screens? My 2015 has it and it was always a design feature I really loved, I hate that it’s gone


Oh, absolutely - Apple still uses old photos of auditoriums full of lit-up Apple logos to this day, and it’s surprising that they haven’t found a way to to recreate the effect with the current ultra-thin LED-backlit displays. It was such a powerful symbol.


----------



## jonathanwright

jonathanwright said:


> I can't seem to get the Synchron Brass player to work in Logic.
> 
> The plugin loads, the samples load, but it doesn't respond to incoming MIDI, although it does when I press notes directly on the plugin UI keyboard.
> 
> It works fine as standalone and in Cubase. I also have one of the pianos installed, and that works without a problem.
> 
> Any ideas what it could be?


In case anyone has a similar issue to this, I finally figured out the cause!

I performed a complete wipe of my system, spent the last two days reinstalling all of my plugins, only to have the problems with the Synchron Player start again.

So I reinstalled Logic one final time, and in the process found out it was enabling 'MIDI 2.0' that caused all the bugs.

So after all that, it was down to one little checkbox.


----------



## DSorah

RSK said:


> I ordered it back in late December, and Apple's estimate of when it would get here was almost exact.


Thank you! That's great to know. My window is March 11-24. Be sure to chime back in and let us know what you think of it. What specs did you choose?


----------



## jonathanwright

DSorah said:


> Thank you! That's great to know. My window is March 11-24. Be sure to chime back in and let us know what you think of it. What specs did you choose?


Mine came a month early! It was due the start of March, arrived the start of Feb.


----------



## RSK

DSorah said:


> Thank you! That's great to know. My window is March 11-24. Be sure to chime back in and let us know what you think of it. What specs did you choose?


I got the Max with 64G and 4TB.


----------



## DSorah

jonathanwright said:


> Mine came a month early! It was due the start of March, arrived the start of Feb.





RSK said:


> I got the Max with 64G and 4TB.


Wow! That's amazing. You just made me check my order status again. Not shipped yet...

I got the 16 inch Max with 64GB and 2TB.


----------



## RSK

Once it actually shipped I had it in two days, but I live in a major city.


----------



## KEM

rnb_2 said:


> Oh, absolutely - Apple still uses old photos of auditoriums full of lit-up Apple logos to this day, and it’s surprising that they haven’t found a way to to recreate the effect with the current ultra-thin LED-backlit displays. It was such a powerful symbol.



Absolutely, it was a beautiful design, I didn’t know they got rid of it because of newer screen technology, hopefully it will return one day


----------



## rnb_2

KEM said:


> Absolutely, it was a beautiful design, I didn’t know they got rid of it because of newer screen technology, hopefully it will return one day


I've seen some conflicting info on exactly why they might have done it (Apple never called attention to it): partially that the opening in the lid for the logo could let bright light through in the other direction (since it was using light from the display backlight), creating a bright spot on the display; partially Apple might have wanted to move on and unify the branding across iPhone, iPad, and Mac; partially that the laptop lids got so thin that the cutout wasn't physically simple to do any more and could create structural weakness in the lid.


----------



## KEM

rnb_2 said:


> I've seen some conflicting info on exactly why they might have done it (Apple never called attention to it): partially that the opening in the lid for the logo could let bright light through in the other direction (since it was using light from the display backlight), creating a bright spot on the display; partially Apple might have wanted to move on and unify the branding across iPhone, iPad, and Mac; partially that the laptop lids got so thin that the cutout wasn't physically simple to do any more and could create structural weakness in the lid.



Well all those reasons suck!! I want my glowing Apple logo!!


----------



## Flyo

Someone here with a MacBook Pro M1 Pro with 32gb ram? Using large sessions with sample libraries?


----------



## mixedmoods

Flyo said:


> Someone here with a MacBook Pro M1 Pro with 32gb ram? Using large sessions with sample libraries?


Yes exact this setup ... but define large. 
I was running a few projects with several instances of Synchron Player (Elite Strings, Synchron Strings Pro, Brass, ...), Kontakt, Spitfire, Felt Instruments and other VI's. Its running well, even when almost maxing out the RAM. I do get occasional droputs and CPU spikes though – but i am pretty sure those are more caused by the fact that exept Spitfire and Kontakt none of the Players are running native on M1 yet. I afraid we only can realistically judge the performance of these systems once all major players are updated ...


----------



## Flyo

mixedmoods said:


> Yes exact this setup ... but define large.
> I was running a few projects with several instances of Synchron Player (Elite Strings, Synchron Strings Pro, Brass, ...), Kontakt, Spitfire, Felt Instruments and other VI's. Its running well, even when almost maxing out the RAM. I do get occasional droputs and CPU spikes though – but i am pretty sure those are more caused by the fact that exept Spitfire and Kontakt none of the Players are running native on M1 yet. I afraid we only can realistically judge the performance of these systems once all major players are updated ...


Thanks for the reply. Can you estimate how many vst sample tracks are you capable of playing without drop notes of, if this happen already, on with daw?


----------



## RSK

In heavy use today and last night, I've been very impressed by the most unlikely thing; the built-in speakers. They sound very rich and full compared to basically every laptop speaker I've ever heard. And it's not just the tonality, but I also get a sense of space and stereo image from them.

My main monitors are not going to be worried in the slightest, but this is the first time I can say I've actually found laptop speakers to be usable or (*gasp*) enjoyable.


----------



## aeliron

RSK said:


> In heavy use today and last night, I've been very impressed by the most unlikely thing; the built-in speakers. They sound very rich and full compared to basically every laptop speaker I've ever heard. And it's not just the tonality, but I also get a sense of space and stereo image from them.
> 
> My main monitors are not going to be worried in the slightest, but this is the first time I can say I've actually found laptop speakers to be usable or (*gasp*) enjoyable.


----------



## RSK

Flyo said:


> Thanks for the reply. Can you estimate how many vst sample tracks are you cable of playing without drop notes of, if this happen already, on with daw?







__





Apple m1 macs with 16gb ram handling - Anyone tried?


A while back, Lorne Balfe made his Cubase file for the Mission Impossible: Fallout theme availabe for download. It's mainly Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra, Albion One, Spitfire Percussion, Hans Zimmer Percussion, and Omnisphere. All total it's 81 tracks. I loaded that up onto my M1 MacBook Air...




vi-control.net


----------



## SomeGuy

Anyone using any sort of screen protection? Any suggestions? Read that people are having their screens scratch very easily and this worries me, especially as AFAIK its not technically covered in the warranty or apple care. 

Examples:




__





Abnormal screen scratches MacBook Pro M1? - Apple Community







discussions.apple.com












Macbook Pro M1 13 Inch Retina Scratches after 2 days


I'm starting this thread hoping that this scratching issue isn't common with the new Macbook Pro 13 Inch M1 (I realise it has been with previous models). Apple support says it's not but lets see. I received this Macbook Pro 13" M1 two days ago and noticed this morning that it has scratches to...




forums.macrumors.com


----------



## jonathanwright

Another bonus of these new laptops is being able to plug in and use high impedance headphones without the need for any other gadgets.


----------



## jonathanwright

Apologies if this is old news, but iZotope RX9 is now M1 native.


----------



## ridgero

My dream Notebook/Laptop - the MacBook Pro 16" arrived today!!! 🤪🤪🤪

MBP 16" / M1 Max 24 Core / 64 GB RAM / 1 TB SSD

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️


----------



## khollister

ridgero said:


> My dream Notebook/Laptop - the MacBook Pro 16" arrived today!!! 🤪🤪🤪
> 
> MBP 16" / M1 Max 24 Core / 64 GB RAM / 1 TB SSD
> 
> Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️


Congrats! There are still a few stragglers on the AS native front, but it is a fantastic machine for music on the go.


----------



## benwiggy

SomeGuy said:


> Anyone using any sort of screen protection? Any suggestions? Read that people are having their screens scratch very easily and this worries me, especially as AFAIK its not technically covered in the warranty or apple care.


That looks like a manufacturing defect in some units, rather than a common or universal issue. Probably caused by the lamination not having time to dry. (MBPs have had form for this before, and Apple has issued recalls to replace the screen. I had it on my 2014.) But you absolutely would be within your rights to return it for a replacement or refund in most countries.

I've had the 16" since November, and I've not seen any such marks. Mind you, if you touch my screen, I'll break your fingers. 😀


----------



## aeliron

benwiggy said:


> That looks like a manufacturing defect in some units, rather than a common or universal issue. Probably caused by the lamination not having time to dry. (MBPs have had form for this before, and Apple has issued recalls to replace the screen. I had it on my 2014.) But you absolutely would be within your rights to return it for a replacement or refund in most countries.
> 
> I've had the 16" since November, and I've not seen any such marks. Mind you, if you touch my screen, I'll break your fingers. 😀


Reminds me of Bond's "Thermal Guard"


----------



## Dajusch

I'm a bit shocked, that the AppleCare price for the 16" Model is 399€/$.

Did you guys go for it?


----------



## davidson

Is it that price no matter which spec you choose with the 16"? It seems a lot, more than twice what it costs on the 13" pro.


----------



## aeliron

Dajusch said:


> I'm a bit shocked, that the AppleCare price for the 16" Model is 399€/$.
> 
> Did you guys go for it?


Yes, quite shocking. I don’t usually get extended protection but it’s a pretty expensive bit of hardware.


----------



## KEM

Dajusch said:


> I'm a bit shocked, that the AppleCare price for the 16" Model is 399€/$.
> 
> Did you guys go for it?



I wouldn’t get AppleCare for anything besides an iPhone


----------



## jbuhler

I always get AppleCare for laptops and phones. Decline it for everything else, though $399 seems a bit pricey, unless the cost of the laptop is well above $2000.


----------



## jcrosby

Dajusch said:


> I'm a bit shocked, that the AppleCare price for the 16" Model is 399€/$.
> 
> Did you guys go for it?


Actually that's about right these days (sadly). Apple Care on a fully loaded i9 8 core MPB was also about $400


----------



## aeliron

With iPhones 


KEM said:


> I wouldn’t get AppleCare for anything besides an iPhone


I never get it for my iPhones, trusting in my own carefulness, but for a laptop near $4000 I would really think about it


----------



## RSK

aeliron said:


> With iPhones
> 
> I never get it for my iPhones, trusting in my own carefulness, but for a laptop near $4000 I would really think about it


This.


----------



## samphony

I went for the yearly Apple Care+ plan. I can also write it off as business expense.


----------



## benwiggy

Dajusch said:


> I'm a bit shocked, that the AppleCare price for the 16" Model is 399€/$.
> 
> Did you guys go for it?


No. I'm betting that any likely repair will be less than that, or covered by statutory law, in the case of a defect. My house insurance covers me against accidental damage.


----------



## jonathanwright

Does anyone have tips on cleaning greasy finger marks of the keyboard? I made the mistake of eating lunch while using my laptop!


----------



## davidson

benwiggy said:


> No. I'm betting that any likely repair will be less than that, or covered by statutory law, in the case of a defect. My house insurance covers me against accidental damage.


With everything being hardwired on the logic board, a repair would be 4 or 5 times that amount, or even more depending on your specs.


----------



## benwiggy

davidson said:


> With everything being hardwired on the logic board, a repair would be 4 or 5 times that amount, or even more depending on your specs.


Any insurance is a gamble: with AppleCare, Apple is betting you that the machine won't need fixing, and you are betting them that it will. Not buying AC is betting that it won't need fixing.

In 20 years of buying 7 Macs, I've had one stolen (replaced on home insurance); got one free screen replacement (recall); and paid for one laptop battery (£200). My 2006 iMac developed a display fault (pink lines) after six years, when I was due to buy a replacement anyway. Never bought AppleCare.


----------



## davidson

benwiggy said:


> Any insurance is a gamble: with AppleCare, Apple is betting you that the machine won't need fixing, and you are betting them that it will. Not buying AC is betting that it won't need fixing.
> 
> In 20 years of buying 7 Macs, I've had one stolen (replaced on home insurance); got one free screen replacement (recall); and paid for one laptop battery (£200). My 2006 iMac developed a display fault (pink lines) after six years, when I was due to buy a replacement anyway. Never bought AppleCare.


I agree and I don't take out apple care either. In saying that though, a couple of years ago my laptop (2018 macbook pro with all the bells and whistles) had an issue with the graphics card and screen. Luckily it was within 12 months of buying it and apple replaced the logic board and screen for free. I received an invoice and the costs were 75% of what the laptop cost to buy. The year before that I had to have two separate 2017 macbook pros replaced due to sound issues, free again due to them being weeks old.

Fixing apple products is becoming harder and harder and without insurance of some kind, you might end up well out of pocket.

Disclaimer: This is coming from someone who currently has no insurance or apple care


----------



## aeliron

benwiggy said:


> No. I'm betting that any likely repair will be less than that, or covered by statutory law, in the case of a defect. My house insurance covers me against accidental damage.


Understood. Yeah, it was painful to buy AC+, but this time I felt compelled.

Keep in mind your house insurance deductible. I don't recall what mine is. And (years ago) right after 3rd legit claim, my insurance (SF) dropped me without a second thought and I had to scramble to find a new one.

Also: if the screen crack thing is really not the users' fault, and other unforeseens.

Maybe the yearly plan is psychologically less painful. Downside: you may be rooting for it to break!

Update: Also, you have 30 days to cancel, I think, and pro-rated if after.


----------



## aeliron

davidson said:


> I agree and I don't take out apple care either. In saying that though, a couple of years ago my laptop (2018 macbook pro with all the bells and whistles) had an issue with the graphics card and screen. Luckily it was within 12 months of buying it and apple replaced the logic board and screen for free. I received an invoice and the costs were 75% of what the laptop cost to buy. The year before that I had to have two separate 2017 macbook pros replaced due to sound issues, free again due to them being weeks old.
> 
> Fixing apple products is becoming harder and harder and without insurance of some kind, you might end up well out of pocket.
> 
> Disclaimer: This is coming from someone who currently has no insurance or apple care


Yeah, my 2016 (2015?) MBP never got decent battery performance, always ran super hot, but kept showing normal battery health. And that model didn't get a battery recall.


----------



## aeliron

jonathanwright said:


> Does anyone have tips on cleaning greasy finger marks of the keyboard? I made the mistake of eating lunch while using my laptop!


Would try just a microfiber or damp cloth first.


----------



## HeliaVox

benwiggy said:


> Any insurance is a gamble: with AppleCare, Apple is betting you that the machine won't need fixing, and you are betting them that it will. Not buying AC is betting that it won't need fixing.
> 
> In 20 years of buying 7 Macs, I've had one stolen (replaced on home insurance); got one free screen replacement (recall); and paid for one laptop battery (£200). My 2006 iMac developed a display fault (pink lines) after six years, when I was due to buy a replacement anyway. Never bought AppleCare.


I feel like I've been lucky. In 27 years I've not had a single issue with my Macs. iPads and iPhones are another matter, but my computers have never shown an issue hardware wise. The 1 issue I had with my current M1Max was really down to a bad cable to my external monitor. Now watch, lightning is going to strike my new MacbookPro, lol


----------



## AEF

New M1 Mac Max and UAD apollo 8x just totally shit the bed for a friend of mine who is a world famous singer.

I have noticed myself Mac issues have been cropping up more and more and last night and today confirmed for me that the neverending upgrade cycle is a huge detriment to getting work done.

For the first time in 20 years Im considering a return to Windows.


----------



## RRBE Sound

AEF said:


> New M1 Mac Max and UAD apollo 8x just totally shit the bed


Just to clarify, this is meant as bad?


----------



## benwiggy

AEF said:


> I have noticed myself Mac issues have been cropping up more and more and last night and today confirmed for me that the neverending upgrade cycle is a huge detriment to getting work done.
> 
> For the first time in 20 years Im considering a return to Windows.


 
If you think changing your platform is going to eliminate 'issues', then you need to read more internet forums posts!! 

Cold comfort: but sometimes things do go wrong. Every computer is, to a degree, an untested unique environment, with combinations of hardware and competing software.


----------



## aeliron

RRBE Sound said:


> Just to clarify, this is meant as bad?


Sounds experimental ...?


----------



## aeliron

AEF said:


> New M1 Mac Max and UAD apollo 8x just totally shit the bed for a friend of mine who is a world famous singer.
> 
> I have noticed myself Mac issues have been cropping up more and more and last night and today confirmed for me that the neverending upgrade cycle is a huge detriment to getting work done.
> 
> For the first time in 20 years Im considering a return to Windows.


Way back, I had to give up on making music in Windows - no one could figure out (or no one wanted to take the blame for) which hardware or software or version of Windows or driver or motherboard or CPU or graphics card or audio card was causing pops and glitches and such. Although a forum like this might have helped a lot back then!

I don't like many aspects of Mac - the crappy email app and weird windows behavior come immediately to mind - but I do believe the "One Ring" aspect does help developers a lot.

Glad the situation has improved in Windows, though! Certainly many are enjoying super-RAM and CPU PCs at a great price.

Edit: whether I'm actually making music now is a matter of debate


----------



## rnb_2

aeliron said:


> don't like many aspects of Mac - the crappy email app and weird windows behavior come immediately to mind


Yeah, that's one of the disappointments of the last few years. When I got my first modern Mac in 2006, the quality of the built-in apps was a major selling point. As time has passed and other things (iPhone) started making so much money that they took over a lot of development effort, that has certainly changed.

Most of the built-in apps no longer have development teams, with some of them basically just treading water while being handled by a "fractional" developer - that is, a single person who gives a portion of their time to a particular app. New apps come out and aren't meaningfully touched or improved for years, apps like Mail fall way behind in features.

If you have a Gmail account, I can heartily recommend Mimestream, currently in free beta. The developer is a former Apple employee who worked on Mail and saw all of the shortcomings that Apple wouldn't give them resources to fix. Another option is Spark, which is available for Mac, iPhone, and iPad, and supports more than just Gmail (also, the company that makes it, Readdle, is Ukrainian).


----------



## KEM

Apple Event confirmed for March 8th, bring on the Mac Mini!!


----------



## Jett Hitt

rnb_2 said:


> Yeah, that's one of the disappointments of the last few years. When I got my first modern Mac in 2006, the quality of the built-in apps was a major selling point. As time has passed and other things (iPhone) started making so much money that they took over a lot of development effort, that has certainly changed.
> 
> Most of the built-in apps no longer have development teams, with some of them basically just treading water while being handled by a "fractional" developer - that is, a single person who gives a portion of their time to a particular app. New apps come out and aren't meaningfully touched or improved for years, apps like Mail fall way behind in features.
> 
> If you have a Gmail account, I can heartily recommend Mimestream, currently in free beta. The developer is a former Apple employee who worked on Mail and saw all of the shortcomings that Apple wouldn't give them resources to fix. Another option is Spark, which is available for Mac, iPhone, and iPad, and supports more than just Gmail (also, the company that makes it, Readdle, is Ukrainian).


I share your disappointment with Apple Mail. Eudora would do more 20 years ago than Apple Mail will do today. I am not sure what the excitement about Spark is, however. Seems like just a basic email program with even fewer options than Apple Mail, but maybe I am missing something.


----------



## SupremeFist

rnb_2 said:


> If you have a Gmail account, I can heartily recommend Mimestream, currently in free beta.


I haven't used a desktop email app on my macs since migrating my domain to Google Apps or whatever they call it now more than a decade ago. Gmail in a browser just works. Am I missing something important?


----------



## rnb_2

SupremeFist said:


> I haven't used a desktop email app on my macs since migrating my domain to Google Apps or whatever they call it now more than a decade ago. Gmail in a browser just works. Am I missing something important?


I'd rather have a separate app than have a tab in a browser to keep an eye on, especially with more than one email account.


----------



## rnb_2

Jett Hitt said:


> I share your disappointment with Apple Mail. Eudora would do more 20 years ago than Apple Mail will do today. I am not sure what the excitement about Spark is, however. Seems like just a basic email program with even fewer options than Apple Mail, but maybe I am missing something.


Spark does a decent job of categorizing things so that I can immediately see emails that I need to pay attention to in a timely manner, separate from all the email I get that can be dealt with whenever I have time. Also, I really like the customizable swipe gestures (four of them - long and short in both directions). I now prefer Mimestream, but that's just on the Mac for now, so I'm sticking with Spark on iPhone/iPad.


----------



## khollister

AEF said:


> New M1 Mac Max and UAD apollo 8x just totally shit the bed for a friend of mine who is a world famous singer.
> 
> I have noticed myself Mac issues have been cropping up more and more and last night and today confirmed for me that the neverending upgrade cycle is a huge detriment to getting work done.
> 
> For the first time in 20 years Im considering a return to Windows.


M1Max with Apollo X8 here - zero issues from day 1


----------



## tmhuud

AEF said:


> I have noticed myself Mac issues have been cropping up more and more and last night and today confirmed for me that the neverending upgrade cycle is a huge detriment to getting work done.


I have to agree. While I am not changing platforms the frustration is there. I feel your grief.


----------



## Billy Shears

Can any of you who have new MacBooks and Cubase 12 open it in Rosseta mode and see if disk usage of Cubase is very high, writing all the time. I have M1 Max 16” and my usage during just an one hour work in Cubase in Rosetta mode has been insane, now I’m worried about potential SSD damage that could happen due to this. It happens everytime I launch Cubase. In native mode it doesn’t happen.


----------



## jonathanwright

Billy Shears said:


> Can any of you who have new MacBooks and Cubase 12 open it in Rosseta mode and see if disk usage of Cubase is very high, writing all the time. I have M1 Max 16” and my usage during just an one hour work in Cubase in Rosetta mode has been insane, now I’m worried about potential SSD damage that could happen due to this. It happens everytime I launch Cubase. In native mode it doesn’t happen.


Seems fine here, M1 Max 14".


----------



## khollister

jonathanwright said:


> Seems fine here, M1 Max 14".


Fine here as well. 

@Billy Shears - It looks like it is swapping, have you looked at the memory usage to see if Cubase or another process is consuming a bunch of RAM? What is your memory pressure in Activity Monitor?


----------



## Billy Shears

I found the issue, it's Sonarworks SoundID Reference in combination with Cubase 12 in Rosetta mode. I suppose you guys don't have it?
Also, do any of you experience slight audio glitch at the beginning of each YouTube video, like it skips for a microsecond


----------



## khollister

Billy Shears said:


> I found the issue, it's Sonarworks SoundID Reference in combination with Cubase 12 in Rosetta mode. I suppose you guys don't have it?
> Also, do any of you experience slight audio glitch at the beginning of each YouTube video, like it skips for a microsecond


Ah - Sonarworks is supposedly releasing the native version the end of this month. No issues with Sonarworks in Logic. I'm testing C12 only in native mode, so no Sonarworks until later this month. I'll try it in Rosetta and see what I get here.

Yes, I get a faint audio hiccup near the beginning of a YouTube video.


----------



## khollister

Billy Shears said:


> I found the issue, it's Sonarworks SoundID Reference in combination with Cubase 12 in Rosetta mode. I suppose you guys don't have it?


Just tried C12 w Sonarworks in Rosetta - no crazy disk reads/writes here


----------



## aeliron

khollister said:


> Yes, I get a faint audio hiccup near the beginning of a YouTube video.


ah, so it’s not just me! It’s seemingly on all my music videos. I wonder why. It’s not in the original audio or video.


----------



## Billy Shears

khollister said:


> Just tried C12 w Sonarworks in Rosetta - no crazy disk reads/writes here


Hmm, very strange. I wonder why I'm having that problem. Do you have the newest version, so it's not Sonarworks Reference, but SoundID Reference? That's super important. Version 5.2.2. Also, does anyone else have SoundID Reference to test? Is it possible that it's just a glitch that shows crazy read and write but is really doing nothing? Because I didn't notice change in disk size. Also, I don't know if I should be worried about health of SSD. Whenever I get new machine, I'm very OCD about it, and I'm thinking that chewing up almost 200GB in one hour isn't really good for it's health...but maybe I'm just overly paranoid.


----------



## khollister

Billy Shears said:


> Hmm, very strange. I wonder why I'm having that problem. Do you have the newest version, so it's not Sonarworks Reference, but SoundID Reference? That's super important. Version 5.2.2. Also, does anyone else have SoundID Reference to test? Is it possible that it's just a glitch that shows crazy read and write but is really doing nothing? Because I didn't notice change in disk size. Also, I don't know if I should be worried about health of SSD. Whenever I get new machine, I'm very OCD about it, and I'm thinking that chewing up almost 200GB in one hour isn't really good for it's health...but maybe I'm just overly paranoid.


yes, it is the latest SoundID Reference.

Is it just writes or reads and writes? What does memory pressure look like in Activity Monitor? Spotlight indexing can hammer the disks for the first several hours after system install, although I would assume that is primarily reads (at least by size). DO you have another DAW to try with Sonarworks?


----------



## Billy Shears

khollister said:


> yes, it is the latest SoundID Reference.
> 
> Is it just writes or reads and writes? What does memory pressure look like in Activity Monitor? Spotlight indexing can hammer the disks for the first several hours after system install, although I would assume that is primarily reads (at least by size). DO you have another DAW to try with Sonarworks?


OK, very weird, I reinstalled SoundID (as I did yesterday but without fixing the problem) and now it works without that RAM usage! Now I don't know what to think. That day I could replicate it every time, and when I removed Sonarworks it was OK, when I put it back Bytes Written in Activity Monitor was reporting HUGE size written. Reads were OK, as was RAM usage, no memory pressure whatsoever (I have 64GB BTW), so I don't know if those GB's were really being written, as I didn't notice anything on performance side.


----------



## Billy Shears

Aaahhh but no! @khollister, can you try putting the plugin in Cubase 12 under Rosseta as a insert, that's when it starts to write!


----------



## khollister

Billy Shears said:


> Aaahhh but no! @khollister, can you try putting the plugin in Cubase 12 under Rosseta as a insert, that's when it starts to write!


I did insert the plugin onto the Monitor bus in Control Room.


----------



## Billy Shears

Wow, then I really have no idea why this is happening to me.


----------



## KEM

What do we think of this? Personally I really hope it turns out to be true, I’d love a mid tier desktop Mac that bridges the gap between the Mini and the Pro


----------



## rnb_2

If it's real, it's a dream come true for people who have been asking for something like this for about 20 years (price being the one big question, of course). With Apple Silicon, they certainly have the ability to make it, so it's just a question of whether they want to do it.

The big question as relates to Tuesday's event is whether the Mac Studio is going to take the place of the M1 Pro/Max Mac mini that some are hoping is about to be announced, and whether that moves the price above what anyone who has been dreaming of a high-end Apple Silicon Mac mini was hoping to pay.

We're in an interesting spot right now - I can't remember the last Apple event where we basically had NO IDEA what is going to be announced. Every blog and podcast has a different idea of what Macs are going to be featured, which means that the supply chain has yet to leak anything definitive. For this close to the event, that's fairly remarkable - let's see if anything leaks the day before or the morning of the event.


----------



## KEM

rnb_2 said:


> If it's real, it's a dream come true for people who have been asking for something like this for about 20 years (price being the one big question, of course). With Apple Silicon, they certainly have the ability to make it, so it's just a question of whether they want to do it.
> 
> The big question as relates to Tuesday's event is whether the Mac Studio is going to take the place of the M1 Pro/Max Mac mini that some are hoping is about to be announced, and whether that moves the price above what anyone who has been dreaming of a high-end Apple Silicon Mac mini was hoping to pay.
> 
> We're in an interesting spot right now - I can't remember the last Apple event where we basically had NO IDEA what is going to be announced. Every blog and podcast has a different idea of what Macs are going to be featured, which means that the supply chain has yet to leak anything definitive. For this close to the event, that's fairly remarkable - let's see if anything leaks the day before or the morning of the event.



I’m very excited for it, only a few days now!! I could see Apple doing away with the higher end Mini and going for a new middle ground model that starts out with the M1 Max and then tops out with the Max Duo, and then the Mac Pro would start out with the Max Duo and got up to a Max Quad, that makes most sense to me


----------



## aeliron

KEM said:


> I’m very excited for it, only a few days now!! I could see Apple doing away with the higher end Mini and going for a new middle ground model that starts out with the M1 Max and then tops out with the Max Duo, and then the Mac Pro would start out with the Max Duo and got up to a Max Quad, that makes most sense to me


Be even more awesome if it’s a totally new chip with a radically different architecture that needs extensive rewrites for all libraries! Personally I think it’s way overdue


----------



## benwiggy

The M1 Pro/Max CPU is already faster than a 12-core 2019 Mac Pro or a 14-core 2017 iMac Pro. Even if they tweak it just a bit for the desktop role, the 'gap between a Mini and a Mac Pro' is already fairly small.

The only difference is the amount of RAM addressable, but M1 Pros have already shown that they can handle 'more RAM than they have', given that the SSD is as fast as RAM was 10 years ago.

At some point, CPUs, storage and bus speeds will increase to the point where audio sampling work just doesn't tax the system. If that's not actually now, it's very nearly now. (Assuming we haven't moved onto hybrid sample/modelling stuff.)


----------



## jonnybutter

benwiggy said:


> The M1 Pro/Max CPU is already faster than a 12-core 2019 Mac Pro or a 14-core 2017 iMac Pro. Even if they tweak it just a bit for the desktop role, the 'gap between a Mini and a Mac Pro' is already fairly small.
> 
> The only difference is the amount of RAM addressable, but M1 Pros have already shown that they can handle 'more RAM than they have', given that the SSD is as fast as RAM was 10 years ago.
> 
> At some point, CPUs, storage and bus speeds will increase to the point where audio sampling work just doesn't tax the system. If that's not actually now, it's very nearly now. (Assuming we haven't moved onto hybrid sample/modelling stuff.)


I was looking for the offramp from the Apple Highway before it became clear how well everything is working w/the new chips. Not anymore. I will definitely buy into the next gen of Minis or whatever they call them. Not so sure about phones and other devices, but for music, definitely, since I already use Logic. As benwiggy implies above, maybe we are taking a nice step closer to the ‘forget about the computer’ stage. I hope so!


----------



## khollister

jonnybutter said:


> I was looking for the offramp from the Apple Highway before it became clear how well everything is working w/the new chips. Not anymore. I will definitely buy into the next gen of Minis or whatever they call them. Not so sure about phones and other devices, but for music, definitely, since I already use Logic. As benwiggy implies above, maybe we are taking a nice step closer to the ‘forget about the computer’ stage. I hope so!


I was also investigating an Apple off-ramp for music before the M1Pro/M1Max was released. I wasn't so much concerned about the eventual performance but whether the RAM/cost would be acceptable. I'm good for some time now but still keep an eye on what is going on in PC-land "just in case".

One of the big reasons I put on the brakes fairly quickly was the uncertainty with UAD thunderbolt. The other issue at the moment is price/availability of things like graphic cards and DDR5 RAM. 

I had originally planned to wait for "Mac mini Pro" or "Mac Pro Lite", but the cost of the new MBP's wasn't really higher than equivalently configured Intel MBP's and I jumped at getting better performance than my iMac Pro in a laptop with great battery life and thermals.

I'm sitting out whatever is released in the near term as my 2021 16" MBP is perfect for me at this point. More RAM would be nice to have but I don't really need more than 64GB right now, and the M1Max is certainly powerful enough for what I do.


----------



## davidson

So now we have rumours of a mac mini pro, mac pro mini, and a mac studio. All I know is my fkn head hurts.


----------



## rnb_2

One of the really nice things about the Apple Silicon move is that you really can just pick the form factor that works for you without worrying about what that will mean for performance. An M1 is an M1 is an M1 and, assuming that they don't do anything weird (like adding cores), a Pro/Max is a Pro/Max is a Pro/Max (binned versions of the Pro in the 14" notwithstanding).

The MacBook Pro is both a great laptop and a great "desktop laptop" that remains connected to an external display most of the time, with no more worries about Intel MacBooks running hot in clamshell mode, or flakiness with external displays. The MacBook Air is completely transformed by not running Intel's awful low-power (but still hot) chips and integrated graphics.


----------



## rnb_2

davidson said:


> So now we have rumours of a mac mini pro, mac pro mini, and a mac studio. All I know is my fkn head hurts.


"Are you getting it? These are not three separate devices, this is one device*, and we're calling it....."

(*may not actually be one device in this case, but I couldn't resist)


----------



## khollister

If the Studio scales from M1Max to a M1_someOtherCuteName_ with more cores/RAM, I can't see there being a Mini Pro (see Mac Studio) or a Mac Pro Lite (see Mac Studio). IF this rumor is correct, the Studio would be the mythical Cube 2.0. I'm skeptical because Apple has refused to deliver this before, but then again they ate crow with the new MBP's (function over form).

And given the event name "Peek Performance", I doubt it's just a new Air or Mini with M1Pro. I'm thinking they are giving us a teaser on the new Mac Pro/Studio stuff and it won't be available for preorder for a bit (official release announcement at WWDC). The pun name just doesn't make any sense otherwise to me.

They may announce an updated Intel Mac Pro as an interim device if they aren't ready to disclose their eventual solution for getting 1/2 TB of RAM in a future AS Mac Pro Ultra. They could probably slip in new Xeons and TB4/USB4 without major redesign of the existing package.


----------



## davidson

rnb_2 said:


> "Are you getting it? These are not three separate devices, this is one device*, and we're calling it....."
> 
> (*may not actually be one device in this case, but I couldn't resist)


Hahaha. Hi Steve, we miss you, please come back.


----------



## ridgero

I'm enjoying my 16" M1 Max with 64 GB sooooo much.

Outstanding performance & battery life

It feels totally different compared to an iMac Pro - its so quick, snappy & powerful. :D


----------



## rnb_2

davidson said:


> Hahaha. Hi Steve, we miss you, please come back.


I miss Steve, but he was very much of his time, and certainly had his flaws (like conspiring with rival companies to keep salaries down). Apple has missed having someone with his singular product vision, and they really took their eye off the ball with the Mac for a few years, but a lot of that seems to have been at least related to Intel's repeated inability to meet their own schedule for process shrinks. All those super-thin MacBook Pros designed for cooler, less power-hungry processors that never came (the butterfly keyboard remains an Apple own-goal, though).

As difficult as it is to be in the middle of a processor transition, I think the Mac is as strong as it has ever been, and there's an excitement around Mac releases that had been missing for several years. Hopefully, Apple will start putting necessary resources back into Mac software engineering so that the OS and first-party apps get back to where they were a decade ago. The Mac isn't as bad as the iPad on the software side, but it could really use some steady attention.


----------



## Vik

davidson said:


> So now we have rumours of a mac mini pro, mac pro mini, and a mac studio. All I know is my fkn head hurts.


IMO they should both release a new Mini with the most powerful CPU they have – and a new, half sized Mac Pro ('Mini Pro' or 'Pro Mini' *) with room for additional m.2 drives and with more connectors.
My guess is that they'll also, within not too long, release a new iMac based on the best processors they offer – ideally both with a 27" and a 32" screen.

* It seems that they'll call it 'Studio' instead.


----------



## davidson

Vik said:


> IMO they should both release a new Mini with the most powerful CPU they have, and a new , half sized Mac Pro ('Mini Pro' or 'Pro Mini) with room for additional m.2 drives and with more connectors.
> My guess is that they'll also, within not too long, release a new iMac based on the best processors they offer – ideally both with a 27" and a 32" screen.


Not till 2023 on the imac pro apparently.


----------



## Vik

davidson said:


> Not till 2023 on the imac pro apparently.


Maybe not? But why not just release an iMac (they don't need to call it 'Pro') with the same spec as the best MacBook Pro (or better, if they release better silicon on Tuesday)?


----------



## rnb_2

davidson said:


> Not till 2023 on the imac pro apparently.


I'm not going to believe that until Apple backs off from their "2-year transition", which they restated during the MacBook Pro launch last fall and commits them to having an Apple Silicon version of each product in the line before the end of 2022 (the Intel Mac Pro may continue on). Ming Chi Kuo has good sources in the supply chain, but is not infallible.

Also, nobody knows if the big iMac (currently believed to be 27", mini-LED, and ProMotion) is going to be "iMac Pro" or not. Going that route would match up with the M1 Pro/Max that it will feature, but there is already a large market of non-Pro users who have bought into the big iMac, and labeling it iMac Pro might send a confusing message to them. Pricing will also play a role here - the display may commit them to going up-market if they're not going to ship a lower-end model with the current 60Hz 27" LED display. Going bigger than 27" seems unlikely, as nobody is making a >4k 32" display other than the XDR, and only HP seems to be making a >27" all-in-one on the PC side. If Apple goes to 32", it would have to be a 6k iMac - I'd guess that's at least a couple years out.

I'd be curious to see what role component availability is playing in the rollout of different models. Will we see a new Mac mini first because it will sell fewer units than the big iMac (and so cut less into still-scarce components needed for the MacBook Pro), or is the iMac just waiting on availability from the display suppliers?

The guesses about Tuesday seem pretty evenly split between "Apple clears the rest of the M1-based models (even if you can't order all of them yet)", "Apple introduces the first of the M2-based models", and "A mix of both". We have no leaks about what exactly is coming, and we're less than 48 hours out.


----------



## KEM

I’d love a 32” iMac, 27” just isn’t big enough for the amount of real estate that I want, I’d love a Pro Display XDR but it is astronomically expensive and it doesn’t even have HDMI so I can’t justify getting one


----------



## NoamL

I'm suddenly in the market for a new mac, powerful enough to run big 40ish gig VEPs and a DAW at the same time (so, 64gb RAM and powerful CPU)... after comparing a lot of stuff the M1 Max Macbook seemed like the best option.

Is this Apple event tomorrow expected to unveil something even better? Will the rumored AS iMac be a better spec for this use case? I don't need the portability of the MBP at all.


----------



## ridgero

NoamL said:


> I'm suddenly in the market for a new mac, powerful enough to run big 40ish gig VEPs and a DAW at the same time (so, 64gb RAM and powerful CPU)... after comparing a lot of stuff the M1 Max Macbook seemed like the best option.
> 
> Is this Apple event tomorrow expected to unveil something even better? Will the rumored AS iMac be a better spec for this use case? I don't need the portability of the MBP at all.



Yes


----------



## Vik

NoamL said:


> Is this Apple event tomorrow expected to unveil something even better? Will the rumored AS iMac be a better spec for this use case? I don't need the portability of the MBP at all.


Here are some of the rumours, in case you haven't seen them:









New Mac mini & display in 2022, Mac Pro & iMac Pro coming in 2023 says Ming-Chi Kuo | AppleInsider


Apple's desktop Mac lineup for 2022 may only consist of an updated Mac mini accompanied by a new display, analyst Ming-Chi Kuo predicts, with the rumored Mac Pro and iMac Pro thought to launch in 2023 instead.




appleinsider.com












Rumored 'Mac Studio' and new Apple display leaked in renders | AppleInsider


Renders based on leaked information for the rumored "Mac Studio" have emerged, showing a taller Mac mini-like design and a new Apple display similar to the Pro Display XDR, both of which could be announced during the Tuesday Apple event.




appleinsider.com





EDIT:
There are also rumors about various M2 Macs and a beefed up version of the current Pro/Mac chips.








Evidence of M2 Apple Silicon Chip Spotted Ahead of Apple Event on Tuesday


Evidence that Apple is testing the M2 Apple silicon chip, expected to debut first in a new MacBook Air and refreshed 13-inch MacBook Pro, has been...




www.macrumors.com












Apple Readies New MacBooks and iMacs for Part Three of Overhaul


As Apple gears up for its first product launch event of the year, the spotlight turns to its 2022 Mac plans. Also: More top Peloton executives leave as part of its shake-up, and iOS 16 development ramps up.




www.bloomberg.com


----------



## Zedcars

A new leak just emerged of special edition Mac Mini called Mac Sussudio:


----------



## rnb_2

NoamL said:


> I'm suddenly in the market for a new mac, powerful enough to run big 40ish gig VEPs and a DAW at the same time (so, 64gb RAM and powerful CPU)... after comparing a lot of stuff the M1 Max Macbook seemed like the best option.
> 
> Is this Apple event tomorrow expected to unveil something even better? Will the rumored AS iMac be a better spec for this use case? I don't need the portability of the MBP at all.


It's unknown whether whatever gets announced tomorrow would be meaningfully faster than the MacBook Pros. The Mac Pro is supposed to have either 2 or 4 M1 Max processors, but whether it will make an appearance before later this year is unknown.

All of the other M1-based models that we know of will likely feature the M1 Pro and/or the M1 Max, so performance should be similar to the laptops (maybe slightly faster, but nothing dramatic). The larger iMac, when it comes, may be just as expensive as the MacBook Pros due to the screen technology; if there is a "Pro" Mac mini (separate from the Mac Studio rumor), that will likely be the only "budget" point of entry into M1 Pro/Max performance.


----------



## rsg22

khollister said:


> Second, I use very few PA plugins. I own Knifonium, DS Thorn and Lion. I did briefly try both Knifonium and Thorn (both Rosetta) and the CPU behavior was terrible - basically unusable. Curious what PA effects you were using - I'll try to test them on my system.


Did you ever find a way to tame Knifonium on M1/Pro/Max? I'm having a hard time with this one - the CPU performance meter in Logic jumps around like a caffeinated weasel, pops/clicks, etc., especially with any poly patch. According to PA's support site, their plugins are supported only under Rosetta, and they don't officially support Monterey.

I haven't been able to find any combination of settings, Rosetta or native, that helps much - _except_ for jacking up the I/O buffer to unacceptable levels and adding tons of latency.

I don't know Reaper well but tried testing Knifonium, with similar problems - though Reaper has a number of different buffer and performance settings spread out in Preferences so I'm still experimenting. I also seem to get different results depending on if I'm instantiating VST, VST3, or AU.

I'm running a MBP M1 Pro, 32GB.


----------



## KEM

khollister said:


> Second, I use very few PA plugins. I own Knifonium, DS Thorn and Lion. I did briefly try both Knifonium and Thorn (both Rosetta) and the CPU behavior was terrible - basically unusable. Curious what PA effects you were using - I'll try to test them on my system.



I hate to hear that as the Knifonium is a staple for me, but I expected this as it already runs terrible on Intel chips and basically everything. Will there ever be Apple Silicon native PA stuff?


----------



## khollister

KEM said:


> I hate to hear that as the Knifonium is a staple for me, but I expected this as it already runs terrible on Intel chips and basically everything. Will there ever be Apple Silicon native PA stuff?


PA has said a lot of the catalog is being released as native this month, but a few things were not specifically mentioned including Knif Audio


----------



## khollister

rsg22 said:


> Did you ever find a way to tame Knifonium on M1/Pro/Max? I'm having a hard time with this one - the CPU performance meter in Logic jumps around like a caffeinated weasel, pops/clicks, etc., especially with any poly patch. According to PA's support site, their plugins are supported only under Rosetta, and they don't officially support Monterey.
> 
> I haven't been able to find any combination of settings, Rosetta or native, that helps much - _except_ for jacking up the I/O buffer to unacceptable levels and adding tons of latency.
> 
> I don't know Reaper well but tried testing Knifonium, with similar problems - though Reaper has a number of different buffer and performance settings spread out in Preferences so I'm still experimenting. I also seem to get different results depending on if I'm instantiating VST, VST3, or AU.
> 
> I'm running a MBP M1 Pro, 32GB.


No - I have given up on it and will be pleasantly surprised if/when PA releases a native version that sucks less than the current version did on Intel. Sometimes you just have to move on.


----------



## Pier

khollister said:


> No - I have given up on it and will be pleasantly surprised if/when PA releases a native version that sucks less than the current version did on Intel. Sometimes you just have to move on.


I reported a couple of UI bugs to PA about Lion and I had a terrible experience. They basically told me "there is no bug" and closed the issue.

I'm a dev and the impression I got is PA will do the absolute minimum to keep their software products afloat. Of course they will add M1 support, otherwise they would be dead in the water, but I wouldn't expect much more from them.


----------



## khollister

Pier said:


> I reported a couple of UI bugs to PA about Lion and I had a terrible experience. They basically told me "there is no bug" and closed the issue.
> 
> I'm a dev and the impression I got is PA will do the absolute minimum to keep their software products afloat. Of course they will add M1 support, otherwise they would be dead in the water, but I wouldn't expect much more from them.


I have some PA stuff, but frankly there isn't anything irreplaceable (a lot I already have 1 or more alternatives) aside from Tantra 2 (which I could get a native version directly from DS).


----------



## chromatic

Hello guys  
i have a question for the M1/m1pro/max users here… 
Do you think 1tb of storage is enough for the swapping if i only install my Apps on it and store the libraries and other data on an external ssd ? 
What i mean by “enough” is to not wear out the internal SSD too soon by swapping ? 
I will use 64gig of ram. 
I mean those are kind of expensive (thinking about the Mac studio ultra) so i am a bit worried about the internal ssd…. 
The thing is for the 2TB one the waiting time is even longer and the basic version (1tb/64gig) is a bit cheaper (200$) than on apple website depending on where you buy it here (japan). 
Thank you for your help


----------



## KEM

khollister said:


> PA has said a lot of the catalog is being released as native this month, but a few things were not specifically mentioned including Knif Audio



Well that’s concerning…


----------



## aeliron

chromatic said:


> Hello guys
> i have a question for the M1/m1pro/max users here…
> Do you think 1tb of storage is enough for the swapping if i only install my Apps on it and store the libraries and other data on an external ssd ?
> What i mean by “enough” is to not wear out the internal SSD too soon by swapping ?
> I will use 64gig of ram.
> I mean those are kind of expensive (thinking about the Mac studio ultra) so i am a bit worried about the internal ssd….
> The thing is for the 2TB one the waiting time is even longer and the basic version (1tb/64gig) is a bit cheaper (200$) than on apple website depending on where you buy it here (japan).
> Thank you for your help


How much space do you estimate to be left after installing your apps?


----------



## Prof_lofi

chromatic said:


> Hello guys
> i have a question for the M1/m1pro/max users here…
> Do you think 1tb of storage is enough for the swapping if i only install my Apps on it and store the libraries and other data on an external ssd ?
> What i mean by “enough” is to not wear out the internal SSD too soon by swapping ?
> I will use 64gig of ram.
> I mean those are kind of expensive (thinking about the Mac studio ultra) so i am a bit worried about the internal ssd….
> The thing is for the 2TB one the waiting time is even longer and the basic version (1tb/64gig) is a bit cheaper (200$) than on apple website depending on where you buy it here (japan).
> Thank you for your help


I went with 2TB but it's a luxury. I hate running out of space on my internal and after years with a 500gb internal SSD and the constant maintenance of having to move and delete, I thought it was a good choice. It's hard to tell what would be right for you though. I've seen lots of people say the 1TB size is good when used with fast externals.


----------



## Cdnalsi

chromatic said:


> Hello guys
> i have a question for the M1/m1pro/max users here…
> Do you think 1tb of storage is enough for the swapping if i only install my Apps on it and store the libraries and other data on an external ssd ?
> What i mean by “enough” is to not wear out the internal SSD too soon by swapping ?
> I will use 64gig of ram.
> I mean those are kind of expensive (thinking about the Mac studio ultra) so i am a bit worried about the internal ssd….
> The thing is for the 2TB one the waiting time is even longer and the basic version (1tb/64gig) is a bit cheaper (200$) than on apple website depending on where you buy it here (japan).
> Thank you for your help


The SSD will outlast the computer's life, and probably even yours 

Base your decision on the storage size you need rather than its lifetime.


----------



## chromatic

aeliron said:


> How much space do you estimate to be left after installing your apps?


Thanks for your response  Hm i have no precise ideas, Cubase, a bunch of soft synths and plugins, capture one… things like that, i guess maybe that would use like 100gb ? We never know because sometimes some programs dont let you install librairies or other components on another drive but i guess maximum 200gb. 


Prof_lofi said:


> I went with 2TB but it's a luxury. I hate running out of space on my internal and after years with a 500gb internal SSD and the constant maintenance of having to move and delete, I thought it was a good choice. It's hard to tell what would be right for you though. I've seen lots of people say the 1TB size is good when used with fast externals.


Thanks! I wanted to take 2TB in case but its just that it makes its longer to get now… 
Its not so much that i am worried of running out of space (i have gone by often with 512gb main drive), its just that it seems those computer rely a lot on Swapping from the main drive so i was worried that sooner than usual even if i use less than 300gb i might run short with 1tb (although i would have 64gb of ram but it seems for some users even with that there is a lot of swapping… ) 
Its good to know many peoples said 1tb is good on those machine with fast external drives.


----------



## chromatic

Cdnalsi said:


> The SSD will outlast the computer's life, and probably even yours
> 
> Base your decision on the storage size you need rather than its lifetime.


I guess i got scared by those talks about the SSD being used too much on those machine… 
I just wonder if with the swapping involved we can still just consider “How much we need to store files” or if we also have to Consider how much “Overhead” is needed for the Swapping. 
Although like i said i would havd 64gb of ram it still seems the system do swapping anyway (which is a bit strange… but i am not OS developer so i dont know lol )


----------



## Cdnalsi

chromatic said:


> I guess i got scared by those talks about the SSD being used too much on those machine…
> I just wonder if with the swapping involved we can still just consider “How much we need to store files” or if we also have to Consider how much “Overhead” is needed for the Swapping.
> Although like i said i would havd 64gb of ram it still seems the system do swapping anyway (which is a bit strange… but i am not OS developer so i dont know lol )


I predict you'll be just fine with 64GB of RAM and won't ever have to worry about the swapping.


----------



## chromatic

Cdnalsi said:


> I predict you'll be just fine with 64GB of RAM and won't ever have to worry about the swapping.


Thank you i feel better about it now  I am looking forward to get the computer then! 
i was on PC since some years now but it never felt completely confortable for some reasons… 
Although its fun to make and have the freedom of what you put in it and all…  (nothing against PC)


----------



## Cdnalsi

chromatic said:


> Thank you i feel better about it now  I am looking forward to get the computer then!
> i was on PC since some years now but it never felt completely confortable for some reasons…
> Although its fun to make and have the freedom of what you put in it and all…  (nothing against PC)


You'll love it. The performance is amazing and it'll be completely quiet. I've yet to make the fans spin up even with huge 300+ orchestral tracks in Logic on mine. The display is great and the battery life is outstanding. It's a proper package. Just take your time with macOS if you've never used it. It won't behave like Windows and trying to make it do that will only frustrate you.


----------



## chromatic

Cdnalsi said:


> You'll love it. The performance is amazing and it'll be completely quiet. I've yet to make the fans spin up even with huge 300+ orchestral tracks in Logic on mine. The display is great and the battery life is outstanding. It's a proper package. Just take your time with macOS if you've never used it. It won't behave like Windows and trying to make it do that will only frustrate you.


Cool! 
I was using macs until some years ago after the Black Mac Pro was not updated for such a long time that it seemed Apple didnt care about it anymore then i switched… 
I will be taking a Mac Studio so we dont know yet for the Noise but i guess Apple care about that point so it should be good i guess… 
300+ orchestral tracks is a lot !


----------



## ridgero

It’s simply amazing…

I took my MBP outside and worked on a track next to a lake, in front of the sun for 3 hours with Cubase 12 and two external hard drives. The Macbook runs buttery smooth. I still have over 70% battery 😂😂😂


----------



## rsg22

khollister said:


> No - I have given up on it and will be pleasantly surprised if/when PA releases a native version that sucks less than the current version did on Intel. Sometimes you just have to move on.





KEM said:


> I hate to hear that as the Knifonium is a staple for me, but I expected this as it already runs terrible on Intel chips and basically everything. Will there ever be Apple Silicon native PA stuff?


I posted this in another thread but after the Monterey, Logic 10.7.3, and native Knifonium updates, I'm seeing vastly improved performance and no CPU spikes, for what it's worth...

Edit: MBP M1 Pro


----------



## KEM

rsg22 said:


> I posted this in another thread but after the Monterey, Logic 10.7.3, and native Knifonium updates, I'm seeing vastly improved performance and no CPU spikes, for what it's worth...
> 
> Edit: MBP M1 Pro



Great to hear!! Appreciate the heads up, I’m excited to finally be able to have more than one instance of the Knifonium in any given project lol


----------



## khollister

rsg22 said:


> I posted this in another thread but after the Monterey, Logic 10.7.3, and native Knifonium updates, I'm seeing vastly improved performance and no CPU spikes, for what it's worth...
> 
> Edit: MBP M1 Pro


Yup, I did the PA updates yesterday and noticed Knifonium is actually usable now


----------



## KEM

khollister said:


> Yup, I did the PA updates yesterday and noticed Knifonium is actually usable now



Yes!!

The KEM signature sound is about to get a lot louder and more obnoxious I can tell you that much…


----------



## rsg22

Hello brilliant people of VIC - having issues with external drives and a Macbook Pro M1 Pro, latest v of Monterey, that seem applicable to this thread.

Two external USB 3 drives (one SSD for libraries, one HDD for time machine) which behave terribly on the above system. Long mount times, even longer file access times (opening a small PDF on either drive can take > 30 seconds), sometimes multiple attempts to unmount. Overall terrible performance. Disk Utility shows zero problems. Both drives continue to work well - blazing fast no issues whatsoever - on Mojave and Catalina partitions on a 2015 Macbook Pro.

I've tried different cables, connecting directly and through a hub, different ports, created a new Mac OS user, etc. Various forums are littered with these issues with no consensus on a solution. Hoping someone here may have solved this...


----------



## sourcefor

Is Monterrey ready for prime time yet! I have a 2019 16” MBP and want to get ready for the 16” m1 pro. Thanks!


----------



## rnb_2

sourcefor said:


> Is Monterrey ready for prime time yet! I have a 2019 16” MBP and want to get ready for the 16” m1 pro. Thanks!


As far as I've seen, Monterey was pretty solid from release - it's not as big an update as Big Sur - and I haven't had any issues with it, but I'm running it mostly on Apple Silicon Macs (my Mac mini server is my only remaining Intel Mac, and it also seems fine).


----------



## KEM

sourcefor said:


> Is Monterrey ready for prime time yet! I have a 2019 16” MBP and want to get ready for the 16” m1 pro. Thanks!



I have no issues with it


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## Cdnalsi

Monterey has been kinda like a High Sierra for me. A great update to Big Sur that's more focused towards stability and refinements. Has been completely rock solid for me with zero problems what-so-ever.


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## KEM

Cdnalsi said:


> Monterey has been kinda like a High Sierra for me. A great update to Big Sur that's more focused towards stability and refinements. Has been completely rock solid for me with zero problems what-so-ever.



I was on High Sierra until I updated to Big Sur a few months ago and that was a big mistake, I just started using Monterey with the Mac Studio and it’s been much better, I’ll probably be on Monterey for another 5 years if I had to guess


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## rsg22

For those on the new M1 Macbook Pro/Max or Studio who are having no problems with Monterey, what external drives are you using if any? I'm running into a ton of issues with some USB 3/C drives as far as performance and mounting/unmounting - issues which are documented in Apple's forums and other forums. Are y'all using Thunderbolt drives?


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## rnb_2

rsg22 said:


> For those on the new M1 Macbook Pro/Max or Studio who are having no problems with Monterey, what external drives are you using if any? I'm running into a ton of issues with some USB 3/C drives as far as performance and mounting/unmounting - issues which are documented in Apple's forums and other forums. Are y'all using Thunderbolt drives?


Yes, I'm almost exclusively Thunderbolt for my drives. I have had a couple USB-A and USB-C drives connected, but have not had any disconnection issues with them. Most of my drives have been connected via powered hubs/docks/PCI boxes, so maybe that is keeping disconnects from happening (which might point to power fluctuations from the ports on the Macs in question)?


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## ssnowe

Have both a M1 Macbook Pro 13 and a new Studio Max.

I have had good success with the OWC Envoy Express Thunderbolt 3 enclosure and am seeing consistent write/read speeds of 1250 write/1550 read. This is on both the Macbook and the Studio.

For USB-C I use the Sabrent USB 3 enclosures and have fairly good success on the Studio Max. On the Macbook Pro I find that USB-C enclosures aren't as robust as I would like them to be (it seems that the Macbook is doing some sort of power reducing thing with the USB-C enclosure which makes for a flakey connection). However, as I mentioned earlier, the Thunderbolt enclosures have been rock solid (seems to be a different power algorithm for the Thunderbolt connection).


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## Cdnalsi

rsg22 said:


> For those on the new M1 Macbook Pro/Max or Studio who are having no problems with Monterey, what external drives are you using if any? I'm running into a ton of issues with some USB 3/C drives as far as performance and mounting/unmounting - issues which are documented in Apple's forums and other forums. Are y'all using Thunderbolt drives?


Have used a 1TB Samsung T5 for what feels like forever with zero issues, recently got a 2TB T7 and has worked flawlessly so far.


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## Flyo

Anyone knows if this rare behavior / issues for USB 3/4 is for all connections including pendrives, enclosures, audio interfaces or keyboards and so on, in this line of Mbooks Pro M1 Pro or Max? Or it could be related only with software OS system


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## ridgero

rsg22 said:


> For those on the new M1 Macbook Pro/Max or Studio who are having no problems with Monterey, what external drives are you using if any? I'm running into a ton of issues with some USB 3/C drives as far as performance and mounting/unmounting - issues which are documented in Apple's forums and other forums. Are y'all using Thunderbolt drives?


Spitfire SSD 1 TB
Samsung T7 2 TB

No Problems at all


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## khollister

rsg22 said:


> For those on the new M1 Macbook Pro/Max or Studio who are having no problems with Monterey, what external drives are you using if any? I'm running into a ton of issues with some USB 3/C drives as far as performance and mounting/unmounting - issues which are documented in Apple's forums and other forums. Are y'all using Thunderbolt drives?


OWC Envoy Pro SX for samples (overflow from internal 8TB) and some Samsung T5/T7 for non-critical stuff. Two issues:

1) The T5/T7's performance is about 20-25% less than on Intel Mac's. This is well documented and is apparently an artifact of Apple's USB implementation in the M1 TB4 controller.

2) TB and USB drives will often not be recognized and remounted after being ejected without a reboot. I originally called Apple about this on Monterey 12.1 last year and they confirmed they had several other reports. I thought 12.2 fixed it, but I am still having the problem sometimes in 12.3.1. It is an OS issue, not HW as I can see the device in System Report, but Disk Utility has no memory of the device once ejected. A reboot always clears it and mounts the devices successfully.


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## rsg22

khollister said:


> OWC Envoy Pro SX for samples (overflow from internal 8TB) and some Samsung T5/T7 for non-critical stuff. Two issues:
> 
> 1) The T5/T7's performance is about 20-25% less than on Intel Mac's. This is well documented and is apparently an artifact of Apple's USB implementation in the M1 TB4 controller.
> 
> 2) TB and USB drives will often not be recognized and remounted after being ejected without a reboot. I originally called Apple about this on Monterey 12.1 last year and they confirmed they had several other reports. I thought 12.2 fixed it, but I am still having the problem sometimes in 12.3.1. It is an OS issue, not HW as I can see the device in System Report, but Disk Utility has no memory of the device once ejected. A reboot always clears it and mounts the devices successfully.


Thanks - good to have some confirmation vs the speculation I've been reading.

I already have a T7 on order for Time Machine/CCC and have been looking at an Envoy Express enclosure for libraries, I'll take a look at the Envoy Pro SX as well. Glad to hear these drives are working for you given the caveats.

It's interesting that these issues affect some drives/drive controllers more than others. It takes 30 seconds to open anything on my external Seagate SSD (only on M1/Monterey). My external WD Black is basically unusable - takes over a minute to mount, very difficult to unmount, terrible performance (again only on M1/Monterey). These drives check out fine in Disk Utility and run great on Mojave and Catalina.


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## Ozzie

Hi everyone - I've recorded a short video to show how powerful the 2021 Macbook Pro M1 Max is, with 64gb ram, running a fairly intensive real-world Cubase project with >65 Kontakt instruments, 3 mic positions, multiple reverbs and a Fab Filter on every track. It might help someone who is thinking of investing in one of these laptops - it's amazingly powerful! Here's the link: .


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## khollister

rsg22 said:


> Thanks - good to have some confirmation vs the speculation I've been reading.
> 
> I already have a T7 on order for Time Machine/CCC and have been looking at an Envoy Express enclosure for libraries, I'll take a look at the Envoy Pro SX as well. Glad to hear these drives are working for you given the caveats.
> 
> It's interesting that these issues affect some drives/drive controllers more than others. It takes 30 seconds to open anything on my external Seagate SSD (only on M1/Monterey). My external WD Black is basically unusable - takes over a minute to mount, very difficult to unmount, terrible performance (again only on M1/Monterey). These drives check out fine in Disk Utility and run great on Mojave and Catalina.


I forgot I also have an Akitio Thunderbay Mini with 4 Samsung SATA SSD's connected via TB - no issues with that either. I have an OWC dual drive dock connected via USB C that I use with a dozen or so HDD's for backup - also no issues.

I should add all my SSD's are formatted APFS, HDD are HPFS


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## colony nofi

Flyo said:


> Anyone knows if this rare behavior / issues for USB 3/4 is for all connections including pendrives, enclosures, audio interfaces or keyboards and so on, in this line of Mbooks Pro M1 Pro or Max? Or it could be related only with software OS system


Techs far deeper into this world that I'll ever be let me know that most of the usb problems are to do with cables. You may well have a cable that says it is usb3 spec, but it may well fail one small part of the spec. The new M based computers are more sensitive to things being in spec. 

So far - using reasonably high end cables, I have had no problems with any of our M based machines or usb drives / peripherals. YMMV.

This is NOT to say that there are not other problems, but problems outside of cables are being seen in far far fewer cases. There have def been some incompatibilities with some USB3 docks which don't have easy fixes for instance.


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## colony nofi

FWIW, I'm using Glyph (last generation) 4TB dives both as thunderbolt and usb3 with no issues (model M2.R) as well as Sabrent Thunderbolt/usb enclosures for m.2 80mm drives. We also have a tonne of low cost USB-C enclosures to throw in various SSD's when not using the Blackmagic docks, and so long as the cable was good, these were good. (enclosures are Startech branded). I did have a problem with them early when first connecting using a cheap amazon cable.


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## rsg22

colony nofi said:


> Techs far deeper into this world that I'll ever be let me know that most of the usb problems are to do with cables. You may well have a cable that says it is usb3 spec, but it may well fail one small part of the spec. The new M based computers are more sensitive to things being in spec.


Yes. I have also read verified reports of folks switching from USB3/C cables to Thunderbolt 3/4 cables on problematic drives, with success. I think TB 3/4 cables are backwards compatible.


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## colony nofi

rsg22 said:


> Yes. I have also read verified reports of folks switching from USB3/C cables to Thunderbolt 3/4 cables on problematic drives, with success. I think TB 3/4 cables are backwards compatible.


TB3 : They're EXPENSIVE but definitely backwards compatible with USB3 IF they're not active. Active TB3 are generally only USB2 compatible for a number of reasons. I always have a couple spare apple thunderbolt 3 passive cables at hand - as they're a good starting point for figuring things out when there's problems. The apple TB4 cables are extremely expensive, and I wouldn't use them unless its specifically for TB4. But they should be USB3.2 compatible (USB4 compatible too - which is part of the TB4 spec now) for both active and passive cables.

This sh!t is complicated!


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## khollister

colony nofi said:


> TB3 : They're EXPENSIVE but definitely backwards compatible with USB3 IF they're not active. Active TB3 are generally only USB2 compatible for a number of reasons. I always have a couple spare apple thunderbolt 3 passive cables at hand - as they're a good starting point for figuring things out when there's problems. The apple TB4 cables are extremely expensive, and I wouldn't use them unless its specifically for TB4. But they should be USB3.2 compatible (USB4 compatible too - which is part of the TB4 spec now) for both active and passive cables.
> 
> This sh!t is complicated!


The Caldigit and OWC TB cables are fine as well in my experience.


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## Cdnalsi

Ozzie said:


> Hi everyone - I've recorded a short video to show how powerful the 2021 Macbook Pro M1 Max is, with 64gb ram, running a fairly intensive real-world Cubase project with >65 Kontakt instruments, 3 mic positions, multiple reverbs and a Fab Filter on every track. It might help someone who is thinking of investing in one of these laptops - it's amazingly powerful! Here's the link: .



I'm wondering how much more performance you can squeeze out of it if you switched to Logic with Kontakt 6.7.1 to run it all natively? (Or does Cubase have a native version yet?)


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## khollister

Cdnalsi said:


> I'm wondering how much more performance you can squeeze out of it if you switched to Logic with Kontakt 6.7.1 to run it all natively? (Or does Cubase have a native version yet?)


Cubase 12 is native - equally efficient (sometimes slightly better) with native plugins as Logic in my experience. The bummer is no Intel bridge for VST, no AU and no VST2, only VST3. As most are already native VST3 or have clearly stated plans to get there, that is becoming less of an issue as time moves on


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## Billy Shears

Guys, can any of you download app "Macs Fan Control" and see if your fans turn on when you work in Cubase? I've seen lots of people saying how their machines are dead silent, but mine turns it's fans on fairly quickly in Cubase session, even though they are really quiet. It would mean a lot if you can check with that app and tell me! Thanks!


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## Silence-is-Golden

For new MBPro M1 users: it is possible to use the thunderbolt 3 aka usb-c ports as regular usb2 ports as well ?

As far as I can see it should, but wanted to make sure.
For mobile usage I want to use an audient usb 2 audio interface, that should work right?


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## rnb_2

Silence-is-Golden said:


> For new MBPro M1 users: it is possible to use the thunderbolt 3 aka usb-c ports as regular usb2 ports as well ?
> 
> As far as I can see it should, but wanted to make sure.
> For mobile usage I want to use an audient usb 2 audio interface, that should work right?


Absolutely - you just need either a USB-C to USB2 cable, or an adapter (like Apple's, which is a bit pricey but very reliable).


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## Silence-is-Golden

rnb_2 said:


> Absolutely - you just need either a USB-C to USB2 cable, or an adapter (like Apple's, which is a bit pricey but very reliable).


Ah, thanks very much rnb_2 !

Just wanted to make sure.

And yeah, those apple guys sure know how to merchandise …


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## Spid

Ozzie said:


> Hi everyone - I've recorded a short video to show how powerful the 2021 Macbook Pro M1 Max is, with 64gb ram, running a fairly intensive real-world Cubase project with >65 Kontakt instruments, 3 mic positions, multiple reverbs and a Fab Filter on every track. It might help someone who is thinking of investing in one of these laptops - it's amazingly powerful! Here's the link: .



Hey @Ozzie I just watched your video, I also have a MBP 16" Max 64GB, but I use Logic and I'm still using Rosetta. You mentioned you use Eastwest OPUS, I was wondering couple questions:

1) Are you running Cubase 12?
2) if so, are you running native or Rosetta?
3) Did you ever got some CPU spike with just one instance of OPUS with some of their orchestral libraries?

I'm on Logic, and sometimes, at the very beginning, I got multiple CPU spike and cracks... and after couple second, it's gone and then it works just fine. I'm having the whole EW library on my internal 8TB, so I don't believe it's a drive issue... I was wondering if anyone else had this issue.

Thanks in advance


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## rsg22

What's a good recommended TB hub for the Macbook M1 Pro?

Also I'm having an issue with one of the TB4 ports on my machine - anyone else seeing this? The two ports on the left - no issue. The single port on the right - will _not_ recognize _any_ external drives but _will_ recognize my audio interface. External drives that work on the left ports but not the right include Samsung T7 (USB-C) and OWC Envoy Express (TB3).


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## rnb_2

rsg22 said:


> What's a good recommended TB hub for the Macbook M1 Pro?
> 
> Also I'm having an issue with one of the TB4 ports on my machine - anyone else seeing this? The two ports on the left - no issue. The single port on the right - will _not_ recognize _any_ external drives but _will_ recognize my audio interface. External drives that work on the left ports but not the right include Samsung T7 (USB-C) and OWC Envoy Express (TB3).


If you just need Thunderbolt and USB-A ports, the Caldigit Element Hub is great, but hard to find in stock - check Caldigit's site and Amazon in your country (it's in stock at Caldigit in the US right now). Beyond that, I've had good luck with OWC Thunderbolt docks, and have had their Thunderbolt 3 dock for a few years with no problems other than the very slow USB-C port on the front (only recently discovered, not sure if it's just mine or not).

That sounds like a hardware problem with your Thunderbolt port - I don't have any issues plugging drives into that port, including an OWC Envoy Express.


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