# Question about CC11



## frankvg (Oct 28, 2004)

I came across some mentioning about CC11 on this forum for controlling expression. 

That is new to me. With GPO you control expression (volume) with the modwheel. In the Sonic Implants manual there was no reference to it either. Is it something for certain libraries or should I be able to use it as well? So much to learn....

cheers,
Frank


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## Herman Witkam (Oct 28, 2004)

Hi Frank

You should be able to draw in expression control in your sequencer. As far as I know it works with all libraries, unless they are using the controller for something else. I personally have a CC11 slider on my masterkeyboard. I use it as a quick volume control as well.


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## Dr.Quest (Oct 28, 2004)

But I think the actual question is...What is cc11 controlling? Is it just volume? Or something else. The explanation on Garritan Strings Lite leads you to believe it is crossfading between velocity levels to get a more natural sounding swell but if so, how is it doing that? I set up aftertouch to control a slight volume swell but is cc11 more?
J :?:


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Oct 28, 2004)

Expression is the 2nd standard control in Midi to change the output level.

Volume is meant for "global settings", let's say for an entire track or for parts.

Expression is actually an attenuation control, as it defaults to 127 = max. You can use it to create more local volume "expression" curves within parts. Which makes it essentially.... an expression control 

The combination of these two makes it very handy to setup a good default volume setting for each instrument and still be able to control the output level without overruling this volume setting.

Most samples actually call at you: "treat me with C11, treat me with C11!" because that will put so much more life into them.

HTH,


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 28, 2004)

Peter Roos said:


> Most samples actually call at you: "treat me with C11, treat me with C11!" because that will put so much more life into them.



Gosh - I can hear them calling now!  :wink: 

Actually this is very good advice - thanks again, Peter.


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## TheoKrueger (Oct 28, 2004)

Peter Roos said:


> Most samples actually call at you: "treat me with C11, treat me with C11!" because that will put so much more life into them.



Hehehe Peter ! nice one  ....evil samples... no matter what music you make with them they are never happy.

I usually have all my tracks at 100 Volume and i start by inserting notes with velocities at 63 and expression at 63 average . That way , while making a song, if you need to make something go higher you can just either push up the volume a bit on master track or run a midi filter and make all velocities bigger.

If you start with all channel Velocities at 127 and all volumes at 127 and you see that only the glocken can't be heard, you have to make everything else lower in volume instead and it takes time
Starting with 63 velo and expression also gives you more "space" to adjust velocity/expression ratio if needed for a part .


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## Herman Witkam (Oct 28, 2004)

Dr.Quest said:


> But I think the actual question is...What is cc11 controlling? Is it just volume? Or something else. The explanation on Garritan Strings Lite leads you to believe it is crossfading between velocity levels to get a more natural sounding swell but if so, how is it doing that? I set up aftertouch to control a slight volume swell but is cc11 more?
> J :?:



They are referring to their own "EXP" patches actually. With the Garritan lib. crossfading is done with the mod wheel controller. The CC11 controller is left intact, as a volume control.


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## Dr.Quest (Oct 28, 2004)

If it's just controlling volume, as I do with aftertouch, it seems like it still would not give the desired level of "expression". On an accoustic instrument if you "dig in" harder to create a crescendo swell the timbre changes. The only way I could see doing that in electronics is to crossfade between velocity layers that have different timbres.
If cc11 is just a glorified volume knob how do you get the timbre to change as it would in a accoustic instrument?
J


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## Niah (Oct 28, 2004)

On SISS there are some articulations with MW, but I can't tell if it does the same effect as CC11...


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## frankvg (Oct 29, 2004)

Okay, I tried something; fiddled with the controls: NOTHING

So apparently that is not the way it works with SISS. There doesn't seem to be any other subtle control for volume or expression. I must use the overall volume in my sequencer. 

Great sounds but compared to GPO not so flexible. At least in my humble (two day) experience.

Any other clues for SISS? 

cheers,
Frank


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## Simon Ravn (Oct 29, 2004)

I am not sure what the confusion is about. This is how it works for SISS (and the majority of newer libraries using x-fading):

ModWheel controls the dynamics of an instrument. So it x-fades from, say, p to ff through the 0-127 MW range.

CC11 controls nothing but volume, but this controller is CALLED "expression" in the MIDI domain.

GPO is not more flexible than other libraries in this regard...


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## Dr.Quest (Oct 29, 2004)

Well the confusion for me comes from the way I read about people saying to use more cc11 as though it is something more expressive than just volume. Crossfading between velocity layers seems like a much more expressive tool if your samples/sampler takes advantage of that.
Thanks for the explanation.
Cheers,
J


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## Niah (Oct 29, 2004)

Frank, check if you have loaded an XFade patch and check if the mod whell is working on your sequencer.


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## Herman Witkam (Oct 29, 2004)

Dr.Quest said:


> Well the confusion for me comes from the way I read about people saying to use more cc11 as though it is something more expressive than just volume. Crossfading between velocity layers seems like a much more expressive tool if your samples/sampler takes advantage of that.
> Thanks for the explanation.
> Cheers,
> J



It is. But you can use CC11 to compliment the crossfading, in cases where the volume changes aren't accurate enough for that passage and so on. I always use them in combination with each other.


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## Dr.Quest (Oct 29, 2004)

So which libraries crossfade velocity samples? EWQL? What samplers support this velocity crossfade?
J


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## Herman Witkam (Oct 29, 2004)

I haven't got much experience with samplers other than Gigastudio and older hardware samplers (Akai, E-mu). In gigastudio you can do crossfades, you can edit how they respond to the midi data as well. So in the Giga editor application you can create those patches for your libraries, if they haven't included them.


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## Scott Cairns (Oct 29, 2004)

I think CC's throw a lot of newbies. (It certainly used to confuse me!)

First off, with velocity crossfading, this can be misleading in the sense that the note should be going from soft to loud - well it is, but the overall volume may not sound any different, just the attack of the note - *how-it-sounds.*

Expression is "Volume within Volume" As mentioned already, if you set your master volume (CC7) to say 80, *expression will only work within those confines.* If you set your master volume to 127, *you now have a larger range of expression.*

CC1 - is what probably throws people the most. By default its set to Modulation - altering the pitch or tone of a sound. But I've seen CC1 set to control the amount of vibrato in a voice (Symphony of Voices) or air in a wind instrument (Rare Instruments) to a kind of volume/tone control (GPO)

There are standard and non standard CC's too. Here's a couple of standard CC's;

CC1 - Modulation
CC7 - Volume
CC10 - Pan
CC11 - Expression
CC74 - Brightness

Some libs like Atmosphere, Trilogy etc, have a CC chart in the manual, if you assign your Mod wheel (thats what throws people, the mod wheel can be set to anything!) to a CC number in the manual, it gives you specific control over certain charateristics of the instrument. For example in Trilogy;

CC 5 - Glide time
CC 95 - LFO depth
CC 99 - Filter Env Sustain


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## Herman Witkam (Oct 29, 2004)

Scott Cairns said:


> the mod wheel can be set to anything!



Sure. You can set it to open your fridge on value 64 and above if you like :D As goes for the rest of the controllers. It's just ordinary binary data that comes in bit packages with a simple start and stop bit.


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## TheoKrueger (Oct 29, 2004)

I am pretty sure GOS supports this feature . 
At the Garritan site there is a "tutorial" demo with speech that showcases GOS and it mentions this crossfading between layers with one sample from ppp to ff or something . Sounds good


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## Scott Cairns (Oct 29, 2004)

TheoKrueger said:


> I am pretty sure GOS supports this feature .
> At the Garritan site there is a "tutorial" demo with speech that showcases GOS and it mentions this crossfading between layers with one sample from ppp to ff or something . Sounds good



Yeah GOS does. Actually, in Dave Govett's Giga mastery tutorial, he says that the technique was invented by Hans Zimmer.


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## frankvg (Oct 30, 2004)

Thanks for all the help.

It is much clearer now. I had to create a new parameter for cc 1 in Kontakt so I can use velocity for the layers and mod wheel for fine tuning the expression (volume). Works a charm. Haven't yet tried the x-fade patches but I think I prefer this method though. 

And I am completely in love with Sonic Implants Strings!!

Frank


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