# POLL: Are you in favour of stricter moderation in VI-C's Commercial Announcements?



## Guy Rowland (Dec 31, 2013)

There's a proposal being discussed (among many other things) in this thread - http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35772 . I made a suggestion there that I think it would be worth seeing whether or not there is broad support for.

The proposal - to make Commercial Announcements a more developer-friendly and heavily moderated environment, while retaining the status quo for the rest of the forum. Everyone would still be free to post responses in CA, but posts would need to be essentially factual / questions related to the specific product being discussed. Off topic and pure opinion posts (whether positive or negative) would not be welcome within CA, but would still would be in other parts of the forum. While developers would not have moderation rights themselves, CA would be a place where developer considerations would come first - conversely, the rest of the forum would be where the general membership comes first.

There are two main potential benefits of this system. First, several developers have expressed unhappiness at the general tone of VI-C and the possibility exists that they will leave. Developers, under this system, would have the option of only interacting within CA, thus avoiding posts that appear mean-spirited, rude etc. If they chose to interact elsewhere on the forum, on their own head be it.

Second, some have expressed the view that it is difficult to make posts which are against the grain at VI-C, often for fear of upsetting developers with an active presence or their supporters. This dynamic might change under this system - people may feel they can speak more freely if the developers were effectively taken out of the equation. While any developer could still read and post in such threads, effectively their status would be no different to anyone elses. Developers who have been unhappy with the status quo at VI-C would be encouraged to stay purely within Commercial Announcements.


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## Daryl (Dec 31, 2013)

Guy, I would only be in favour of stricter moderation if it applied to posts by developers, as well as us regular punters. As you know, in the UK advertising is not allowed to present unsubstantiated claims or opinion as facts, and until the developers start to obey this basic rule, they have to expect to be called out by users, or even other developers.

As far as chasing developers off by being critical of their products, that's their decision. However, they have to bear in mind that not being on a forum means that criticisms are not answered, and will crop on a Google, search with no rebuttal.

As you can see, I'm on the fence on this one. I can see cases where either side might be the best way to go. Sorry for not being any help.

D


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## Hans Adamson (Dec 31, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> There's a proposal being discussed (among many other things) in this thread - http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35772 . I made a suggestion there that I think it would be worth seeing whether or not there is broad support for.
> 
> The proposal - to make Commercial Announcements a more developer-friendly and heavily moderated environment, while retaining the status quo for the rest of the forum. Everyone would still be free to post responses in CA, but posts would need to be essentially factual / questions related to the specific product being discussed. Off topic and pure opinion posts (whether positive or negative) would not be welcome within CA, but would still would be in other parts of the forum. While developers would not have moderation rights themselves, CA would be a place where developer considerations would come first - conversely, the rest of the forum would be where the general membership comes first.
> 
> ...


Could you give a few specific examples of previous posts that would be stricken under a new stricter moderation?


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## snattack (Dec 31, 2013)

I favor as well, but a middle ground with some discussion might be handy. Otherwise there's a risk that we'll have double posts between the CA and the samlple forum in every case something a developer post needs discussion. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, just to a factor to calculate with.


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## dedersen (Dec 31, 2013)

I'm a bit on the fence on this. As I've stated in the thread this one was spun off from, I quite like the idea of the commercial announcements being more to-the-point. Right now it can be nearly impossible to find the information you need in those huge 20+ page threads, and developers usually end up answering the same questions several times.

So I could see a benefit of weeding out all the usual "Really looking forward to this!", "This will change everything, solve global warming, and reconcile me with my children!" or "Worst...library...ever!" posts that tend to take up a lot of space, along with the seemingly obligatory "+1" quotes. While I really enjoy the excitement that a lot of us express when new libraries are announced, it does mean that important information tends to get lost in the haystack.

Daryl raises a good point regarding moderation on both sides though. So critical questions should definitely NOT be edited away.

Of course, one practical problem with all this is: do the moderators actually have TIME to implement this sort of tight moderation? I would imagine that it would require a lot more work than moderating VI-C currently requires.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 31, 2013)

Do the winners get cake? 

Btw, since this forum is not a democracy, has anyone actually contacted the sheriff (Frederick) about this? Is this an actual in the works sort of scenario, or are we running it up the flagpole to see if anyone salutes? Guy, I'm thinking that you'd volunteer to moderate?

Oh, and just in case I haven't been clear how I feel about this desperate plea for law and order in this border town, let me just say this:

"ARRRRGGGGGGGHHHH!!!"



There. Whew. Thanks for listening.


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## Stephen Rees (Dec 31, 2013)

I would not wish to see more intrusive moderation. I feel the balance is right.

If something - anything - is in the public domain people have a right to express themselves freely about it.

If a developer doesn't like how the forum is run, they need not support the forum or make announcements here.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 31, 2013)

Lots of good points, I understand the fence-sitters. Since of course I'm making it all up as I go along (and am not a mod), it's all conjecture really, but since it seems such an unhappy place on all sides at the moment, figured its worth exploring some ideas.

*Critical questions to devs* - not quite sure what would constitute a critical question. But let's invent a fictitious example, and two ways of phrasing it:

A - is it possible to create your own keyswitches?

B - FFS, why on earth isn't it possible to create your own keyswitches? What a pathetic excuse for a library this is.

A would clearly be fair game, B would probably get deleted. But perhaps a more realistic slightly loaded question:

C - Why can't you create your own keyswitches?

For me, loaded as it is, that would be fine. In the end, if there was enough interest in this idea, of course it would be down to the mods to draw up the specific guidelines and then live by them.

*Would we end up with double posts?* Maybe, though that does occur already of course. I think it would help in some ways, it would clarify the best home for a post. Factual question - CA. Opinion and discussion - ST.

*Would criticism go unanswered, to the detriment of devs?* A very good point, I think. Ultimately that's the decision of each developer as to whether they choose to engage in the wider forum. What isn't tenable though is developers wanting to engage with everyone, but running off with hurt feelings if they meet someone who is critical, which is sorta what's been happening. 

Also, just to point out that some devs already do what I'm suggesting on their own, and rarely comment outside CA. ProjectSAM is one - I think they do comment elsewhere, but it's very unusual. I don't think their reputation is tarnished as a result.

*Do mods have the time for this? *Another very fair question - I don't know. I wondered if some moderation effort can be taken away from the rest of the forum - not sure if that would work? Maybe more could be recruited. Larry - I'm not a very good candidate, I think I'm perceived as a PITA by many mods and devs as it is...

*Has anyone contacted Frederick?* Not I, for sure. Seemed sensible to first see if anyone even wanted it before anything else. As it stands, its around 50/50 - not sure that's enough support to take it much further anyway?


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## Daryl (Dec 31, 2013)

Perhaps there could be a new moderator specifically for the Commercial Announcements section. They could remove anything that smacks of instantiated hyperbole by the developer and also remove all the +1 nonsense and other unnecessary posts.

Of course developers may say that this is censorship against them, but censorship can't just work one way, if it is to be fair.

D


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## AC986 (Dec 31, 2013)

Daryl @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> and also remove all the +1 nonsense
> 
> D



Daryl, have you any idea what that would do to Gunther?

No, I just can't support that.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 31, 2013)

I'm going to drop this almost immediately. Just one more thing:

"This seems like such an unhappy place".

Really?? I'm not unhappy, I think it's great. Contentious? Sure. Never seen an Internet forum that wasn't. Mostly though, just folks gathering info, taking sides, grumbling, doing all the messy stuff people do. I mean, gosh- no one's forced to be here! I pony up money to support it even, something I've never done on another forum, and a LOT of people do. Bickering and fanboyism are never gonna go away. Criticism of libraries and devs won't either- we pony up a lot of cash to these dudes, and they're here doing bidness. This sainthood/altruism stuff is nonsense. Sometimes they mess up. Sometimes they're unfairly or rudely criticized. That's the nature of doing business in a highly subjective field.If one can't suffer the slings and arrows, quit the archery range. They certainly get PLENTY of worshipful kudos as well, often deservedly so, but the pendulum naturally swings both ways.

You know I'm a big fan of civility, Guy, though admittedly in my whimsical way. I'm not saying we should let the inmates run the asylum, just that most of them aren't so harmful that they can't just be ignored with a little effort. Cheers.


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## Daryl (Dec 31, 2013)

Larry, I don't exactly disagree with you, but I do feel that if a developer has paid for the right to announce his/her product, it makes sense to allow that announcement to be used for asking and answering of questions in an efficient and civil manner. Just looking at the length of some of these announcement threads makes it impossible for them to have any meaning to the user anyway. By the time I got to page 20 I'm sure that I would have lost the will to live.

D


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## NYC Composer (Dec 31, 2013)

Daryl @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> Larry, I don't exactly disagree with you, but I do feel that if a developer has paid for the right to announce his/her product, it makes sense to allow that announcement to be used for asking and answering of questions in an efficient and civil manner. Just looking at the length of some of these announcement threads makes it impossible for them to have any meaning to the user anyway. By the time I got to page 20 I'm sure that I would have lost the will to live.
> 
> D



Or we could make it purely reflective of the title- "Announcements". No discussion. Save that for Sample Talk. Criticize or praise at will, posit questions, dev can respond there or not.


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## TGV (Dec 31, 2013)

About the hyperbole: it's a bit our own fault if we let ourselves get carried away by announcements. There might be products where the manufacturer can make promises in advance, but sound is so subjective, that that certainly doesn't hold for sample libraries. Some dev could create the best legato ever, but there could still be people that would call it unusable because they don't like the overall sound of the library. So, to maintain mental stability:
- take announcements with a grain of salt
- don't buy in advance unless you really trust the product.
In that light, a bit more moderation wouldn't harm.

OTOH, if you've got moderation in one part of the forum, but people badmouthing the same product in another part, what message does that give? Everyone will find out after some time. Would that make a dev happier?

Decisions, decisions...


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## Daryl (Dec 31, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> Daryl @ Tue Dec 31 said:
> 
> 
> > Larry, I don't exactly disagree with you, but I do feel that if a developer has paid for the right to announce his/her product, it makes sense to allow that announcement to be used for asking and answering of questions in an efficient and civil manner. Just looking at the length of some of these announcement threads makes it impossible for them to have any meaning to the user anyway. By the time I got to page 20 I'm sure that I would have lost the will to live.
> ...


Yes, that would work, particularly as it would give the developer a chance to update the announcement as things change over time, such as new features, or new demos.

D


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## MA-Simon (Dec 31, 2013)

> if a developer has paid for the right to announce his/her product



I thought that with all the money coming in during the funding campaign, that VI is already funded for years in advance. Is this paid only rule still in place?


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## Daryl (Dec 31, 2013)

MA-Simon @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> > if a developer has paid for the right to announce his/her product
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that with all the money coming in during the funding campaign, that VI is already funded for years in advance. Is this paid only rule still in place?


http://www.vi-control.net/vicrate2.html

D


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## Ozymandias (Dec 31, 2013)

Stephen Rees @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> If something - anything - is in the public domain people have a right to express themselves freely about it.



Sure, but Commercial Announcements is not a typical forum. It's a place where a good signal-to-noise ratio would benefit developers and potential buyers alike. There's plenty of room in Sample Talk for free expression.

The HZ Percussion thread was a perfect example of the problem. That thread eventually became one or two pages of meaningful info buried somewhere in amongst 30+ pages of unfettered excitement.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 31, 2013)

Good idea, but I fear that some loud users will skip the part about how this is only for the Commercial Annoucements, and will start screaming death-to-dictatorships.


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## Daryl (Dec 31, 2013)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> Good idea, but I fear that some loud users will skip the part about how this is only for the Commercial Announcements, and will start screaming death-to-dictatorships.


Yeah, but you could delete it. :lol:

D


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## Daryl (Dec 31, 2013)

Actually, the more I think about it, the better this idea seems. Keep the Commercial section for information, heavily moderated, to avoid pages of nonsense. Then use the sample talk section for users and developers to rip each other apart.

D


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## kclements (Dec 31, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> ... I'm not unhappy, I think it's great. Contentious? Sure. Never seen an Internet forum that wasn't. Mostly though, just folks gathering info, taking sides, grumbling, doing all the messy stuff people do. I mean, gosh- no one's forced to be here! I pony up money to support it even, something I've never done on another forum, and a LOT of people do. Bickering and fanboyism are never gonna go away. Criticism of libraries and devs won't either- we pony up a lot of cash to these dudes, and they're here doing bidness. This sainthood/altruism stuff is nonsense. Sometimes they mess up. Sometimes they're unfairly or rudely criticized. That's the nature of doing business in a highly subjective field.If one can't suffer the slings and arrows, quit the archery range. They certainly get PLENTY of worshipful kudos as well, often deservedly so, but the pendulum naturally swings both ways.
> 
> You know I'm a big fan of civility, Guy, though admittedly in my whimsical way. I'm not saying we should let the inmates run the asylum, just that most of them aren't so harmful that they can't just be ignored with a little effort. Cheers.



Yup - I agree with you Larry.


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## dpasdernick (Dec 31, 2013)

Ah the human element. People saying something they feel is totally fair and another hearing the most condemning words ever. Unfortunately most of the discussion on this forum is very subjective. Someone loves Library XYZ and another thinks it's the worst purchase ever. It's hard to moderate humans, especially musicians the most fickle of the lot. 

I am getting a bit burned out by the hype from both fanboys and developers telling me library XYZ is a no-brainer.

However I do love this forum. I hope it stays somewhat the same as the years march on by. It is a great place to hang out with some great people.


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## Daryl (Dec 31, 2013)

dpasdernick @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> I am getting a bit burned out by the hype from both fanboys and developers telling me library XYZ is a no-brainer.


Which is why the Commercial Announcement section should be devoid of all of his nonsense.

D


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## pinki (Dec 31, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> Or we could make it purely reflective of the title- "Announcements". No discussion. Save that for Sample Talk. Criticize or praise at will, posit questions, dev can respond there or not.



Yes to this.

No to the Poll


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 31, 2013)

NYC Composer @ 31/12/2013 said:


> I'm not saying we should let the inmates run the asylum, just that most of them aren't so harmful that they can't just be ignored with a little effort. Cheers.



Some members won't put in the little effort. And you know how quickly a small voice can be amplified even though the perceived injustice it bemoans turns out to be false.

PS: I wonder if this little exercise can tell us something about how difficult it is to change something like the US Constitution, for e.g. (you could insert your own country's laws). The fear of the unknown (will this lead to a total clampdown of dissent?!!!) blankets any temptation for change, even if for the better.


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## Vlzmusic (Dec 31, 2013)

Voted yes, cause I believe there is a place for strictly technical and informational thread, where one should avoid opinions, "thanks", "Wow" e.g. good and bad altogether.


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## wst3 (Dec 31, 2013)

I think an adjustment is in order, but I'm not sure exactly what form it should take. One of the values that a forum like this can provide is unfettered information. Sadly, sometimes this devolves into name calling, personal attacks and generally mean spirited debate.

Debate is good.

Mean spirited debate does not add a lot to the conversation.

While it is true that we all have the option of not reading, and not contributing to the noise, it is often tempting to attempt to be the voice of moderation... and we all know how that works<G>!

I think there are really two fundamental issues that need to be resolved:
A) we - moderators and members alike - need to encourage civility and completeness. 
B) there needs to be a balance that provides benefits to developers that support the forum through advertising while allowing new (or new to VI-Control) developers a chance to make themselves known, which will hopefully lead to them being sufficiently successful so that they too can support the forum.

My suggestions, off the top of my head, would include:
1) allow the moderators to delete posts that include personal attacks, with a note as to why the post was deleted. That second part is critical I think.

2) allow posters to appeal if they think the moderators were overly cautious (and this is likely to happen at first, but I think it will even itself out.)

3) restructure the Sample Talk, Commercial Announcements, and Promote Yourself sections. 

For Commercial Announcements:

- Limit commercial posts by non-supporting developers to some small number, 3 or 4 times a year. This lets them get their feet wet, without compromising the benefits of being a supporting developer.

- find a way to discourage posts that say nothing more than "+1" - if you like a library then tell us why. Other than asking folks to elaborate I'm not sure what can be done about this.

- clamp down on any post that is unnecessarily negative. What constitutes "too negative"? Any post that says "this library sucks" would be a start. I can't imagine there are a lot of libraries that are universally loved or hated. It is a subjective issue. So if you don't like a library by all means share that, but explain why. Is it the sound, the UI, the approach? And what is it about that feature... don't just say it sounds bad, say it sounds artificial, or harsh or whatever. Back up your statements with your opinions.

- delete, with a comment, any post that attacks a developer or member of the forum. There is no place for that here.

For Sample Talk:

- apply the same guidelines for posting, no personal attacks, no negative (or positive) posts without some backup.

- this should be the primary forum to talk about new developers. If you find a new library that you think is of interest to the rest of us this is where you talk about it.

- even at that, Sample Talk should be all about how to use Sample Libraries and other software synthesizers, and the engines that drive them. How to get that string run effect, or a clever use for a specific library.

For Promote Yourself:

- it seems to me that this might be the ideal spot for new, non-supporting developers to introduce themselves. There does need to be a limit, maybe two announcements per year?

Yeah, as I've been on the wrong end of a couple flame wars I have given this some thought. It was nice to actually put it into some kind of organized format<G>!


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## Daryl (Dec 31, 2013)

Bill, whilst you have some interesting ideas I don't think that a company that pays for an advert should have to put up with their advert being defiled with graffiti, which is what sometimes happens in the Commercial Announcements section. If some one wants to say that the product is c*p, they should do it in Sample Talk. Just imagine if you paid for a TV ad and then at the end there was a V/O from the network telling the punters that your product was rubbish. I don't think that you'd be too pleased.There is already an avenue for expressing like and dislike for a product. I don't think that there needs to be a second avenue.

D


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## dedersen (Dec 31, 2013)

Daryl @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> Actually, the more I think about it, the better this idea seems. Keep the Commercial section for information, heavily moderated, to avoid pages of nonsense. Then use the sample talk section for users and developers to rip each other apart.


I really like this idea, keeping the Commercial threads more of a strictly Q and A with the developers. I strongly disagree with the ideas that commercial announcements should be strictly announcements with no further interaction, that would for me represent a huge loss for this forum.


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## wst3 (Dec 31, 2013)

Daryl @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> Bill, whilst you have some interesting ideas I don't think that a company that pays for an advert should have to put up with their advert being defiled with graffiti, which is what sometimes happens in the Commercial Announcements section.



I didn't say I solved world peace<G>... and I agree completely with your post, I just didn't state it quite as well.

We have to find a way to balance the needs of three different constituencies...

1) Fred needs to keep his shirt (and guitars<G>!)

2) Commercial developers that support the forum need to realize some benefit from their support - and that is exposure to potential customers. I don't think it HAS to be positive, but I do think it can not be negative without grounds, and we get far too much of that sometimes.

3) Users deserve a fair evaluation. I've ranted in the past about the disadvantage of not being able to demo libraries before you spend your money... nuff said. Over time I think any given developer can create a level of trust, there are several where I don't think twice if a library looks interesting. But before you reach that point you have to depend on developer demos, user demos, and comments here. 

That's almost as big a benefit as what I've learned about composing, and the business of composing. And of course some of the friendships that have developed. But in solving the (perceived by some) problem of excessive harshness we need to keep it in mind.


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## Chriss Ons (Dec 31, 2013)

Both the developers and potential buyers (who have product-related questions) would most certainly benefit from a _Commercial Announcements_ -section that is kept on-topic and clutter-free.

It's not as if Guy's suggestion would "change the very spirit of this forum". People can still speak their mind freely in _Sample Talk_ - where opinions and discussions belong - and when a developer feels there are certain posts with unfair/unreasonable critiscim or whatever "misconstrued views" in that section, it's up to them to put on the heavy armor and counter them there... or not.

So: Yes.


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## gpax (Dec 31, 2013)

_*Accidentally deleted by idiot moderator. My sincere apologies.

- Mike *_ :oops:


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## Mike Greene (Dec 31, 2013)

Hans Adamson @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> Could you give a few specific examples of previous posts that would be stricken under a new stricter moderation?


This would be my question as well. What threads in the Commercial Announcements section were problematic enough to warrant sweeping policy changes for all CA threads? The section seems to run pretty smoothly to me, but admittedly, I don't read most threads.

Bear in mind that we already have a policy where if a developer (or anyone, for that matter) complains, we take it seriously and if we believe someone has indeed gotten out of line, we take what we believe is appropriate action.



MA-Simon @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> > if a developer has paid for the right to announce his/her product
> 
> 
> I thought that with all the money coming in during the funding campaign, that VI is already funded for years in advance. Is this paid only rule still in place?


Two things here - First, this forum barely stays afloat with the fundraising plus banner ad revenue. It's definitely not funded for years in advance. Even now, Frederick is *trying* to afford some fairly basic upgrades and fixes.

Second, Commercial Announcements has never been restricted to only paid advertisers. If you're not an advertiser, you can still post Commercial Announcements. You're restricted to no more than one posting per month, but other than that, you're free to announce whatever VI related product you have.

The reason for that is Frederick didn't want to create a clone of NS where advertisers ruled the roost. If there's a new woodwinds library coming out, the membership here should hear about it, whether the developer is an advertiser or not. That may not be smart business policy, but Frederick never intended for this forum to be a profit machine. From day one, the intent has been that VI Control be a great place for members to freely discuss products without fear that any developers get special treatment.



Daryl @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> Just looking at the length of some of these announcement threads makes it impossible for them to have any meaning to the user anyway. By the time I got to page 20 I'm sure that I would have lost the will to live.


From a developer's viewpoint, they'll be jumping for joy at a 20 page announcement thread. Each post puts the thread back to the top of the "Recent Posts" list, so it extends the announcement. Feel free to make any Realitone thread 20 pages. :mrgreen: 

From a member's viewpoint, 20 pages may be a chore for a user to read, but if time is that much of an issue, it's easy enough to just scan to the developers responses in the thread.

Don't get me wrong, I find 20 page threads annoying from an aesthetic standpoint. But I'd fear throwing out babies with the bathwater if we made rules aimed at shortening them. I also hate +1 posts, but I'm not so sure a rule banning them is called for.



NYC Composer @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> Btw, since this forum is not a democracy, has anyone actually contacted the sheriff (Frederick) about this?


Frederick may or may not have seen this particular thread, but this general topic has been in moderator discussion for about a month. Which reminds me, I'm only speaking for myself (not other moderators) in this post.



dedersen @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> Of course, one practical problem with all this is: do the moderators actually have TIME to implement this sort of tight moderation?


That's a good point. There's more time involved in tighter moderation than one might think. Sure, it's easy enough to delete a post like _"This library sounds like sh**!!"_ Those are no brainers. But most posts that some people object to are much tougher calls. Tough calls take a lot of time to decide.

If someone asks if a click they hear in the demo is part of the sample, do we delete that post, for fear it could be deemed negative? Shouldn't the developer know that other listeners probably heard the same click and wonder the same thing?

What if a well-intentioned member has a perfectly normal question that is sincere, but it turns out the answer would be unflattering? Does the question get deleted? Before you answer, what if we're not so sure the question was truly asked with good intentions?

In the interest of keeping the threads to a _"Just the facts, maam"_ standard, if someone makes a joke, do we delete that? What if it's a _good_ joke? How do we decide if a joke is good? If Gunther accuses someone of being an Orchestral Tools plant, then later claims it's just his masterful ironic wit going over our heads, do we accept that?

As Daryl has pointed out before, what if a developer makes a claim that is false, yet members aren't allowed to question it? Are moderators (unpaid moderators, I might add) then burdened with the task of fact checking?

And then there's the issue of sending PM's to anyone whose posts we edit or delete. Those have to be delicately worded, which takes a lot of time. More than you might think, because if we don't word this PM just right, the person gets pissed off and then we've got another _"Too Much Censorship!!!"_ thread on our hands.

Don't get me wrong, although I'm mostly opposed to the idea of changing the rules in Commercial Announcements, it's mostly for practical reasons, rather than philosophical ones. I like the _spirit_ of Commercial Announcements being somewhat pure, but I don't see how it can be done without lots of unintended consequences.

For me personally (again, I'm only speaking for myself,) I'd have to see the complete set of rules someone thinks we should incorporate. Not vague handwaving, but an actual set of rules that would address not only the examples I just gave, but whatever other examples we could come up with.

Then I'd like to see the list of threads where these rules would have have had a positive effect. Threads where our current system failed us.

And then I would want to look at other threads to see if these new rules would have killed some otherwise good discussion. Because we don't want to do more harm than good. Because I personally think this forum works pretty darn well as it is.


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## gpax (Dec 31, 2013)

I am a bit confused here. My post (which I felt was useful, but maybe not), no longer appears in this thread, and instead there are a series of back and forth quotes under my name that I did not write at all.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 31, 2013)

gpax @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> I am a bit confused here. My post (which I felt was useful, but maybe not), no longer appears in this thread, and instead there are a series of back and forth quotes under my name that I did not write at all.


I am so sorry. It was indeed a very thoughtful post and I feel really bad I deleted it. I was editing my own post, but with yours being right above mine, I hit the edit button on yours. (The danger of being a moderator.)

My sincere apologies. It's not possible to restore it from here. I know it was long, so I'm hoping you wrote it offline and still have a copy and can put it back.


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## Casiquire (Dec 31, 2013)

I think Mike Green makes some good points. As it stands I already believe that there's a general understanding that CA threads are about the product and people already tend not to be mean-spirited and tend not to derail the thread. Sure it's happened but I've even seen another member chastise the offender for it. The most notable example of a problem that I can think of in recent memory was Spitfire, and in my opinion they came across as highly immature for their five minute departure from the forum because they are one of the most consistently praised developers on here.

If anything I think the most fair thing would be to give the person who starts the thread a nice "delete" button on every post within their own thread in the CA section. Sure they can abuse their power, but then one link over in the Sample Talk forum there would be a thread that would make them sorely regret not ruling with a more gentle hand, and they would be damaging their own reputation.


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## gpax (Dec 31, 2013)

Mike Greene @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> gpax @ Tue Dec 31 said:
> 
> 
> > I am a bit confused here. My post (which I felt was useful, but maybe not), no longer appears in this thread, and instead there are a series of back and forth quotes under my name that I did not write at all.
> ...


Thanks Mike for clarifying. Mistakes do happen, and I certainly don’t take it personally. 

I do take it as a sign - through no fault or blame to you or anyone - that I am not meant to be contributing at this time.


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## dannthr (Dec 31, 2013)

Where's the poll to restrict SAMPLE Talk threads to sample talk?


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## Mike Greene (Dec 31, 2013)

gpax @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> I do take it as a sign - through no fault or blame to you or anyone - that I am not meant to be contributing at this time.


Please don't, if for no other reason than it will make me feel even worse about my error. I've read a number of your posts this last few months and you're exactly the sort of voice the forums needs.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 31, 2013)

gpax @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> _*Accidentally deleted by idiot moderator. My sincere apologies.
> 
> - Mike *_ :oops:



How DARE you say that about one of my favorite developers


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## NYC Composer (Dec 31, 2013)

I'm still wondering whether there'll be cake for the poll winners.

"Cake or death?"*



*Eddie Izzard


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 31, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> I'm still wondering whether there'll be cake for the poll winners.
> 
> "Cake or death?"*
> 
> ...



Death! Oops, I meant "cake", lucky for me it's the Church of England


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## jleckie (Dec 31, 2013)

It is so simple. No one should post in announcements EXCEPT the dev. 

If people want to talk about something that's announced- start another thread & there you can try and predict the future of the product 'not yet released' until the cows come home.


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## rJames (Dec 31, 2013)

jleckie @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> It is so simple. No one should post in announcements EXCEPT the dev.
> 
> If people want to talk about something that's announced- start another thread & there you can try and predict the future of the product 'not yet released' until the cows come home.



I think that talking about what we want or what we need out of a newly announced library is exactly what the devs want.

It would be sad to create a library that didn't at least meet expectations. Honestly, I think that contributing (or thinking we are) to a new library is half the fun here at VI.


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## synergy543 (Dec 31, 2013)

gpax said:


> What I’ve noticed is that there does not seem to be consensus about the actual role of the moderator, and I must confess to being confused about this as well. Some equate moderating to censorship, while others regard that role as maintaining focus, or even balance of tone.
> 
> I get the appeal for serendipitous, unregulated discussions, even at the risk of derailing a topic, and I even understand the argument that such branches of dialogue also provide useful information. But I’ve also seen these discussions spiral out of control, even as those asserting the capacity to sort it out - sans moderator - are accelerating the pace of the so-called derailment even more. Some even resort to citing male body parts in an attempt to assert a particular point of view, lol.
> 
> ...



Not that I agree, as I don't think anything should be censored out, including your post. One person's BLEEP is another person's gold. I value being able to read everyone's posts and deciding myself which I value.


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## gpax (Dec 31, 2013)

Mike Greene @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> gpax @ Tue Dec 31 said:
> 
> 
> > I do take it as a sign - through no fault or blame to you or anyone - that I am not meant to be contributing at this time.
> ...


Clearly not my intention to make you feel bad. It looks like it has resurfaced, proving that nothing is ever truly deleted on the internet. Thanks for the kind note, though. I PM'd you as well. 

g


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## gpax (Dec 31, 2013)

synergy543 @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> I value being able to read everyone's posts and deciding myself which I value.


As do I. Thanks. Now about using that Sonnet card and SSD for my Mac Pro...


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 31, 2013)

OK, I have a question for everybody and please, please believe me when I say that I have no intention of offending anyone or being provocative.

Are people really _unable_ to make a distinction between a community agreeing to adhere to some proscriptions on certain kind of statements, at least in some sub-forums, for the overall good of the community and “censorship” or simply _unwilling_ to? Because to me, there is a clear distinction.

Here is an analogy.

i went to a movie theater a few weeks ago. Before the film was shown a featurette came on that asked people in a cartoonish way not to use cell phones for tweeting and text messaging during the film. One person, two rows up from me, ignored it and was doing so continuously, to the annoyance of those seated around him. One of them (not me, I swear) went to the staff and complained and a staff member came up to that person and asked him to stop. The person proceeded to have a hissy fit and said that he paid for his ticket and that as long as he wasn’t talking on the phone, he had every right to do whatever he wanted with his phone. He was asked to leave, and did but threatend to sue. Most of the audience applauded as he left.

Is it not similar?


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## KingIdiot (Dec 31, 2013)

fuck no!


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## synergy543 (Dec 31, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> Are people really _unable_ to make a distinction between a community agreeing to adhere to some proscriptions on certain kind of statements, at least in some sub-forums, for the overall good of the community and “censorship” or simply _unwilling_ to? Because to me, there is a clear distinction.
> 
> Here is an analogy.
> 
> ...


I went to see the the Trueman Show with my uncle who was 96. He lost his entire immediate family in Vienna to the Nazis. In the middle of the movie, at one of the highlights where Jim Carey was being spied upon, he stood up and loudly proclaimed "That is not fair". And the entire audience loudly clapped and applauded. He violated the etiquette of good community that Jay speaks of, yet he added a sense of humanity at a valuable moment in the film that everyone could relate to. I supposed in a strict "moderated world" he would have been politely asked to leave. But it was exactly his comment against such a world that everyone so readily related to. A distinction maybe lost upon some who have not lived through is experiences, and yet valued by others.

Do some not see the the clear value in different perpectives?


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## NYC Composer (Dec 31, 2013)

I've had enough of Piet's online fits of smarmy rage. I will skip over everything he has to say, or ignore the thread. Easy-peasy. The realtime example you give, you could not escape without losing your money. Different scenario.

An ignore button would make all of that easier, so I would be in favor of one- but not if it was any sort of PITA for Frederick.

Jay, please stop trying to universalize your concern as if it is so logical, it defies debate. Clearly, that's not the case.


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## Astronaut FX (Dec 31, 2013)

Far too many posts/threads about posting, and too few about creating music (and yes I get the irony that I've contributed as well). If my opinion as a newer member counts at all, I'm not really in favor of differential moderating of any sub forums. If we limit the scope of what can be discussed in the Announcement forum, then the questionable material will simply relocate, and in my opinion, I'm not sure that this would truly do too much to change the overall environment. Furthermore, I'm not certain that the environment is really all that bad compared to where else I've been.

I think there are really two discussions that brought us down the rabbit hole. Re-pea'ts post regarding the KH libraries, and, to a lesser extent, the exchange between MarkS_Comp and Troels.

In another thread, re-peat has laid bare his intentions and his personality for all to see, and states quite clearly that contributing positively to the forum and consistently doing so in a civil manner are mutually exclusive for him. Given that, we can now each choose freely as to whether or not we'll take the time to read his posts and/or interact with him. He won't mind. We're adults and can do so without further moderation.

As to the exchange between MarkS_Comp and Troels, I think this may have been overblown. I think under the rough presentation, MarkS_Comp had an honest question regarding CAGE. Troels was put off by the presentation of the question, and chose, instead of responding with his customer relations hat on, to respond with his creative genius (<-- not meant facetiously) hat on. That's his choice, and it may or may not tarnish his or his company's image. Again, we're adults and can make that call without further moderation as well.

For me, yes, I'll probably steer clear of re-peat because life's too short to tolerate nastiness, even in the name of the defense of "good music" (who gets to decide what that is by the way?) I'll also choose to overlook Troels' slight snippiness, because I can at least understand it, and I've personally been treated well by he and his company.

Lastly, I don't think we want to turn the Announcements thread into the developers' own dog and pony shows/hype machines without our ability to ask questions, or even express opinions in those threads. If they're going to benefit from having that kind of direct exposure to their potential customers, then being asked a few questions, even if not so eloquently framed, is part of what should go along with that.

Let's just play nicely and get back to the business of talking about music, and the outstanding tools that we have at our disposal for creating music. That's my two cents…probably more like a dollar, seventeen but who is counting?


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 31, 2013)

synergy543 @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 31 said:
> 
> 
> > Are people really _unable_ to make a distinction between a community agreeing to adhere to some proscriptions on certain kind of statements, at least in some sub-forums, for the overall good of the community and “censorship” or simply _unwilling_ to? Because to me, there is a clear distinction.
> ...



I do see the value in it. I also see the value of consensus when possible.

One final question for you and Larry, and then I will let it go:

If the moderators design some rules and a clear majority here if not all wildly enthusiastic about them will be willing to accept them, are you going to call that "censorship"?


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 31, 2013)

The more I read this the less enchanted I am with the idea of stricter moderation in commercial. Having spent years in the ad agency business and launched a couple of hundred products over the years, I think most of the product descriptions are pretty fair, product announcement headlines (subjects) pretty straight forward, and so on. If someone is running a sale and wants to call it a "no brainer", so what? 

The cash register, not the Vi-C Word Police, will let the dev know if the price was or wasn't. 

Critiquing product design. Hmm. In reviewing some of the dev posts, most devs don't really do a solid job of describing their product design, nor their product benefits. Fast Company magazine sends out a daily emailer where design and innovation are principle subjects. 

http://www.fastcompany.com/topics/design

But the dev needs to talk up the design and its subsequent benefit, and hope, within the music production arena, that sales prospects appreciate the innovation. 

One example of this is The Harp from Orchestral Tools Symphonic Sphere.
http://www.orchestraltools.com/librarie ... sphere.php

Here one of the great innovations in this package are the harp pedals which enable you to set the scale source. Scales, chord scales, synthetic scales, and enharmonics (homophones) can be set up with this harp just as you can with a real one. 

But where are the detailed explanations of this with video demos? 

And then the harder question, do you know enough about the harp to recognize these innovations and to appreciate why its worthwhile to consider buying Symphonic Sphere?

If there's a tragedy in the Commercial section it's that we're stuck with the walkthru so one "can hear it as it really is," which certainly has its merits as part of the product explanation, but doesn't really tell the customer that much, based on the buyer remorse comments posted so quickly after purchasing, usually, new products.

The innovation represented in the Commercial section is astonishing, yet sadly, under represented in its presentation. 

Stricter moderation? _Pass._


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## synergy543 (Dec 31, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> If the moderators design some rules and a clear majority here if not all wildly enthusiastic about them will be willing to accept them, are you going to call that "censorship"?


Jay, the reason I'm against moderation is that exactly where it turns into censorship, is a gray area, where the lines of definition are different for each of us. So what my definition is may be different than yours. We are both human and therefore have different tolerances and views on things which is what makes this forum so wonderful. I respect your different view and actually find it quite interesting that your perspective is different from mine.

I also feel strongly that I want to live in a world where each of us are individually responsible for our own actions and not a "rule-based world" where we only do things because "that is the rule". I'd much rather have each of us focus on governing ourselves even if it means crossing the line sometimes to the point we have disagreements or differences. This is what makes life interesting. Were we all to follow the exact same precise etiquette, and eradicate the unique customs of the many different countries various members of this forum are from, then we'd have no conflict. Homogeneity is ideal in one sense, but then its not so interesting either. We'd be giving up much of the colorful discussions and opinions that different perspectives bring. This forum is a marvelous place where there is a such a variety of customs , cultures and opinions. Sure, there will be occasional conflict, or intended humor may be lost over the internet at times, but overall, we enrich each other's lives with our different perspectives and cultures. Those are the things that make life good for me.

I remember my uncle used to talk about how this and that was "verboten" in Vienna during the war years, and I guess a bit of his influence lingers on in my desire to have freedom, respect, and tolerance for one another. And the maturity to mend fences when those borders are occasionally breached in conflict rather than be constricted by moderated rules. Despite our differences, our focus and interests are all on the same subject. To relish these differences, and have the freedom to do so, is worth so much, and that's what makes this forum appeal to so many.

And btw, my apologies for my rudeness to you in some past posts. Despite my comments, I don't have any less respect for you, and I very much value your opinions and contributions even when they are different from mine. I strive to continually improve my communication and wish you a successful and rewarding 2014. And even if you still feel as strongly as before about the need for moderation, thanks for reading my thoughts this far on the topic.


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## DaddyO (Dec 31, 2013)

Daryl @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> Actually, the more I think about it, the better this idea seems. Keep the Commercial section for information, heavily moderated, to avoid pages of nonsense. Then use the sample talk section for users and developers to rip each other apart.
> 
> D



This tracks with my thinking on the subject. It's not that you're prohibiting free speech so much as walling off a specific area from the normal, less fettered give and take. And it definitely would make it easier to get announcement information. So often we get updated news in a popular announcement thread that's difficult to find.

Let the normal rough and tumble occur in the Sample Talk section.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 31, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> synergy543 @ Tue Dec 31 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 31 said:
> ...



I'm not going to call it anything. If Fredrick actually changes the policy 
, though, I'll just leave. No harm, no foul (shrug)

Meanwhile, I'll just keep reacting to your filibuster


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 31, 2013)

Major brands have all gone through these kinds of conversations and some have went through stages (long ago) where they were freaking out and trying to censor any harsh criticisms in social media, and most arrived at the view that there is value to them and their customers and potential customers in having both voices with positive and negative criticism heard. Part of the reality is that they realized that if only positive voices are heard that it appears as propaganda and is less compelling/sticky to new visitors. I think this largely applies to developers in this community. They will attract and engage more customers and potential customers if they allow for healthy and diverse discussion where people are able to provide both positive and negative opinions. 

For the most part, the key behavior that I believe needs to remain against the policy here and where this community would benefit from increased moderation (in all sections) is with regard to disrespectful behavior towards fellow members and developers. Basically, behavior such as trolling, insulting and personal attacks upon other members and developers and making threats all require moderation. Secondarily, in situations where a member is engaging in what appears to be intentionally or serially taking topics off topic/sabotaging threads. I don't believe that anyone should be censored, for example, for merely for making a harsh product criticism such as "I hate the sound of that library" or even "I think that library sucks" - as shallow or crude as those criticisms may be. Sure, in an ideal world people would provide more support for their opinions than that and every criticism would be constructive, but were we to attempt to impose those conditions on the community, I'm confident it would be unrealistic and stifle conversation. 

Further, in any public forum, some people are not gifted communicators or gifted in the forum's language, and may be less articulate than some others expect, but can still add value to the community. It's only when people are abusive and disrespectful to others or outrageously taking topics off topic/sabotaging a thread that I believe a forum should implement moderation. Further, if the Commercial section of this site were limited with regard to negative criticism non-developers would clearly see it as a bunch of PR and in effect, the "HYPE AND PROPAGANDA" section and consequently, there would be much less customer engagement there than there is today. In a nutshell, it would be a ghost town and developers would all learn their lesson in a year and abandon this idea forevermore.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 31, 2013)

A few random thoughts (I figure it's like fishing: more rods, more chances of catching at least one fish. I know, I'm not much of a fisherman!):

- Anything that divides the membership so evenly is worthy of this kind of discussion.
- Not doing anything will upset the half that believes there's a problem with this forum section.
- I have a hard time with the idea that if the forum's strongest voices + 50% or more agree on a given action, some threaten to quit this place without first seeing if the change is for the good or bad.
- When I was a mod, I was always nervous of making the kind of mistake that Mike did. It's so easy to hit the wrong button!
- Why not just limit the posts in Commercial announcements to *one per hour per member*? That would, IMO, reduce the chances for tension-building back-and-forths, would still allow for some good questions, a bit like when a famous composer is invited to answer questions that are submitted, except that these would be direct (each member posts), not submitted questions.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 31, 2013)

PS: eDrummist, you make some good points in your post. I would like to say that, having been behind the curtain for a good long while in the recent past, the mods share your values, and have applied these... for 9 years.


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 31, 2013)

@Ned I see that the right policies are in place, I just wish for a bit more moderation -- perhaps more gentle nudges to remind folks who have a habit of being less than civil to reign in that behavior. But I also realize that's a lot of work for a small community and volunteer moderators.

In any case, HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

P.S. I've always got a kick out of your domain name YouShootIScore.com. Catchy, positive and very memorable.


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## mikebarry (Dec 31, 2013)

There just needs to be more positive energy in this forum - however the mods plan on doing that is great. I think Logicprohelp is a wonderful forum for example.

Otherwise the constant in-fighting and dick measuring is useless - it just makes the senior members shy away. Discourage the trolls and enjoy the site as it used to be. 

FTR Vi is not even in our top ten refferers FWIW


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## tcollins (Dec 31, 2013)

I voted yes in the poll but have changed my mind after reading the responses in this thread. Making a new product announcement on vi-c is a thrilling and terrifying endeavor, precisely because any oversights or warts will be brought quickly to everyone's attention! There is definitely pressure on devs to have everything working as advertised when a new product is released, and that is a good thing. The interaction in CA helps improve the tools we use (and sell), NO question.
That said, no good could possibly come from personal insults, like the ones piled on KH.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 31, 2013)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> A few random thoughts (I figure it's like fishing: more rods, more chances of catching at least one fish. I know, I'm not much of a fisherman!):
> 
> - Anything that divides the membership so evenly is worthy of this kind of discussion.
> - Not doing anything will upset the half that believes there's a problem with this forum section.
> - I have a hard time with the idea that if the forum's strongest voices + 50% or more agree on a given action, some threaten to quit this place without first seeing if the change is for the good or bad.



I'm pretty sure I was the only one who said I'd leave. It wasn't a threat- why would my leaving threaten anyone? I was stating my personal point of view. Why would I care what "the forum's strongest voices + 50% or more" think- any more than you care about whether or not 50% or more plus the forum's strongest voices think trap sucks?

I haven't said it's not worth discussing. I've been discussing it all along. I have strong opinions about the issue. Last I knew, Ned, you were pretty strongly opinionated yourownself.


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## G.R. Baumann (Jan 1, 2014)

Just a few thoughts....

As for Guys example of A/B expressing the same critique, whereby B expresses it in a somewhat rude manner, isn't this the age old, same old same old?

I am not around here that long, but essentially I do not feel that there is a lot of *on purpose negativity* on the fora. If such comes across on occasion, it seems as if the members have enough sense to self regulate and put the offender back on track.

I intend to think as long as there are no obvious argumentum ad hominem attacks, which in my opinion should always result in a yellow card / red card system, depending on how often and how strong, the rest is no critical mass really.

Allow me also to point out that some developers seem to have a higher sensitivity to critique and the way it is expressed than others, now, that's not a critique, it is just a fact.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 1, 2014)

Blimey crikey Charile, what a ton of fantastic posts. I find myself agreeing with positions on both sides, which perhaps is telling. It's a complicated dynamic this - the only posts I'm wary of are the "all we simply have to do is..." variety.

There might be a dozen posts here I'd like to pick up on / praise for their thoughtfulness, but for everyone's sanity (including my own) I thought I'd stick to just a part of Mike Greene's superb post - if you skipped it, I'd urge you to go back and read the whole thing. I've chosen this part mostly because he takes my initial idea and puts it right through the wringer. If the idea is to work, it has to overcome these (and other) obstacles:



Mike Greene @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> If someone asks if a click they hear in the demo is part of the sample, do we delete that post, for fear it could be deemed negative? Shouldn't the developer know that other listeners probably heard the same click and wonder the same thing?
> 
> What if a well-intentioned member has a perfectly normal question that is sincere, but it turns out the answer would be unflattering? Does the question get deleted? Before you answer, what if we're not so sure the question was truly asked with good intentions?
> 
> ...



Thing is... I don't really have good answers to these questions. Right now, I feel exactly the same way as Mike - the intent behind this idea might well be good, but I think the practicalities would probably sink it. It wouldn't take long for a moderator decision to get things all inflamed again, which is precisely what the idea was meant to avoid.

If anyone else who likes the idea can do better than me in answering these examples, I'm all ears...

I'm glad CS Mike has contributed to the thread, since CineSamples is one of the developers not happy with how things are here. And his reply also suggests that this proposal won't hit the nail on the head for him - if I've read it right, it's an overall attitude he'd like to see changed, not so much a safe section within a business-as-usual forum.

All of which leads me to consider recasting my own vote. If it doesn't solve the problems it is set out to even if it works, and probably won't work due to practicalites, then however good the intent, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to pursue it.

HOWEVER (and its a CAPS LOCK however), clearly this is a timely discussion, and all the issues that have come up in the thread need an airing - and hopefully a better solution will come out of it which would be more acceptable to more people. Such as:

*Ignore buttons*. I'm a little sceptical of those for many reasons, not least of which is this - the contentious posts will still get quoted and discussed and take over a thread, even if you skipped what everyone is talking about, so how does that help?

*Time delay on posts*. That's a new idea to me - I can see it would stop daftness escalating and taking over, but wouldn't you have a potential mess on your hands of questions being asked after points are answered etc?

Then, as I write on Jan 1st, we have the notion closest to the original thread that spawned this:

*Everyone just try to be more positive*. Sadly, I think this is the least likely to work and would go the way of almost all new year's resolutions (for those who chose to try it, and many would not). I can say that with some confidence, since we have the example of Piet, the real world test case. While many are clearly fed up with him, others defend him to the hilt baggage and all. If there were no substance to his posts, it would be easy to write him off, but there is and you can point to some real world positive consequences. I know many would take issue with that (and have) but it's not the point - its how many here see it, so that's that.

_(an open question to the elder grandees of the forum - do you agree that things are more negative now? My first exposure to VI-C was I guess 5+ years ago and my first reaction was it was full of snobs and elitists that just liked to pour scorn over everything in sight. Of course it was a wildly innacurate picture, but its enough to make me question the "good ol' days" picture. Others have suggested that what has really changed is more of a groupthink mentality where there is a herd of popular opinion that goes mostly unchallenged)._

All of which leaves me pretty much where I started. Several (including Mike G) have suggested that things work pretty well as they are, and the fact for me is that - considerable warts and all - VI-C is by far better than any other general forum I know for pro composers (AudioBro is the most helpful and positive, but of course its just AudioBro - you can't ask for a better example of a company forum though). That doesn't mean it can't be better still - the rough edges are still abrasively rough at times as the CineSamples Free Snare debacle showed most clearly to me. And if the majority favour the status quo, then we still face the possibility of either a developer leaving entirely, or some of the more senior / controversial members leaving as they feel their voice is being squashed.

So for me, I'm still looking for that magic idea that could help that dilemma as I want to have my cake (CAKE) and eat it - I want the Piets of the world here, and I want the Cinesamples and Spitfires of the world here.


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## Arbee (Jan 1, 2014)

From reading the shared thoughts of recent days on this general topic and the balance of this poll, I do wonder if perhaps the main work has been done here already and we should just look forward optimistically into 2014 with the benefit of this reflectiion.

.


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## G.R. Baumann (Jan 1, 2014)

I really see this as a non issue Guy. Personally, I do not sense any constant hostility or rudeness per se, on the contrary, hence I voted no. You can not keep people from expressing themselves in - just for example - arrogant ways, rude, cynical, sarcastic, etc. take your pick.

Common sense, as long as there is no obvious hostile and recuring pattern of troll~ish behaviour, intentional slander or ad hominem, what's to moderate in a stricter form? However, if that occurs, the tools available to moderators appear quite efficient to me as is.

Bottom line, I seriously doubt you can positvely change things around here by having s stricter moderation, oh and btw. Happy New Year folks, and thanks for all the pleasant exchanges here on VIC. 

Best
G


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## NYC Composer (Jan 1, 2014)

I am all for positivity, but I think it's unreasonable and unhelpful to expect humans in a forum to follow some sort of "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" dictum. I am uninterested in a heavily Prozac-d forum where everything is unicorns, rainbows and lovely walks on the beach anyway.

I would absolutely agree that people should check themselves for possibly derogatory, unnecessary and hurtful posts. The sort of rudeness that started this mess was WAY outside the fringe of general discourse. I think things can be said frankly and directly without vitriolic attacks, and I want civil yet direct communication in this forum.

I'm also very pro- developer, but as I've said before, if devs start going the prima donnas route and getting all huffy and oversensitive, they should either:

1. Assign the most diplomatic and easy going person they can to interacting on forums, or-

2. Only deal with day to day announcements here and let support be support.

I understand that dealing with rudeness and imbecilic behavior can wear one down. If those issues make forum interaction untenable, so be it.


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## KingIdiot (Jan 1, 2014)

As I sit here in the hospital for another day hanging with a loved one. I still find time to get distracted and come to a community that I want to be a part of and read about. I have followed many of you from a forum before this, and I feel like I know many of you and most of you know who I am. Our personalities clash and sometimes support each other. I try my best to bring information and insights I have to any thread I can, but I also find the need to just ramble or post sarcastic, acerbic or sometimes blunt things in a good natured way (it's never hostile, but may be defensive). I understand that this doesn't come across because no one is reading in my actual voice and more likely what they think my voice is like.

trust, while I'm passionate, I'm a pretty self deprecating but nice guy to be around, and will likely buy you a beer or cookie with my last dollar even if I'm thirsty or have seriously low blood sugar.

and yet, with all that want to be a jackass, I do find myself self censoring at times. Especially on the level of product discussion. I've been called politically correct by Simon more times than I can remember. He's right. The truth is, I'd love to be a bit more open about how I feel about the sound of demos and some developers, but I also know how that almost always, leads the discussion into a game of base defense, where the winner achieves validation of thoughts.

I choose to TRY not to be a part of that here, but I'd never want to be stripped of the option. Just like I don't want to be stripped of the option of saying "Fuck you Ned, I wont do what you tell me" in jest because I actually like Ned and would follow him to the end of the earth, except its too bad because he's from Canada and well he stinks.

you see? Where does the line get drawn on insults. I just ribbed Ned, but inferred that because he's canadian he might stink (which isn'tt the case, it's because he stinks)

Is NYC, gonna call me a bully and explain to me that canadians are in fact generally nice smelling and that I might be picking on a group that don't need it?
Is Ned gonna smile and shrug it off? (and take a shower)
is Jay going to suggest that Ned's not stinking for him, so I might want to et my nose checked?
Is Peter going to suggest a book on the art and history of stinking?
is Piet going to come out and tell me that what I'm smelling really shouldnt be considered stink as true stink is something much more nuanced and reaches levels of real Olfactory caressing that just isn't achieved in the mainstream air anymore?
Am I going to suggest that you can tweak your stink with just the right types of curry?

My point is, some of the discussions get heated, and sometimes get a little intense based on how we read a post, or how we are feeling that particular day, but in the end with enough time on the community and reading history, you begin to learn who each of us are. That's what community should be about.

Of course extreme hostility should be dealt with, there's a line that we as a community can draw about that (I believe we're already acknowledge that line), but pacifying everyone in the form of more censorship than we have, I fear will dilute the actual charm of the place and make it a but gentrified (gentlefied?), and I suspect a lot of the charm of actual users character will be lost.

We become the VI-strip mall.

I'll try to find this place for good times. Sometimes it's about coming out to read "friends" who are the only ones' who understand this niche we're in. Because sometimes life needs to have that. There's no place around that does. If it wasn't here I wouldnt be here looking for a distraction, to be around from the hard times, when I can't really get away.

I hate you all.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 1, 2014)

The stinkier, the better...


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## Jdiggity1 (Jan 1, 2014)

KingIdiot @ Wed 01 Jan said:


> As I sit here in the hospital for another day hanging with a loved one. I still find time to get distracted and come to a community that I want to be a part of and read about. I have followed many of you from a forum before this, and I feel like I know many of you and most of you know who I am. Our personalities clash and sometimes support each other. I try my best to bring information and insights I have to any thread I can, but I also find the need to just ramble or post sarcastic, acerbic or sometimes blunt things in a good natured way (it's never hostile, but may be defensive). I understand that this doesn't come across because no one is reading in my actual voice and more likely what they think my voice is like.
> 
> trust, while I'm passionate, I'm a pretty self deprecating but nice guy to be around, and will likely buy you a beer or cookie with my last dollar even if I'm thirsty or have seriously low blood sugar.
> 
> ...



I vote for a '+1' button so i stop having to scroll through pages of '+1"s!! (Looking at you Gunther...)

Also, I really really really liked this post. I'd give it a thumbs up, but there is no button to do so.


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## AC986 (Jan 1, 2014)

Jdiggity1 @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> I vote for a '+1' button so i stop having to scroll through pages of '+1"s!! (Looking at you Gunther...)
> 
> Also, I really really really liked this post. I'd give it a thumbs up, but there is no button to do so.



OK so I had some fun myself about Gunther and his +1s. 

But I don't understand why anyone would want to take that option away from chaps that want to say +1. What difference does it make? If Gunther and anyone else feel comfortable about using the +1 thing then let them I say. I can read and scroll fairly quickly. It's not an issue.


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## germancomponist (Jan 1, 2014)

What I do not like are those 100 pages long threads in the Commercial announcements, because the header is so often exchanged. You always have to scroll pages and pages if you are searching something. Why not open a new thread for each product from a company?

That would be really good for all the people who search for something in the Forum! o/~


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## Astronaut FX (Jan 1, 2014)

germancomponist @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> What I do not like are those 100 sites long threads in the Commercial announcements, because the header is so often exchanged. You always have to scroll pages and pages if you are searching something. Why not open a new thread for each product from a company?
> 
> That would be really good for all the people who search for something in the Forum! o/~



Amen to that…good call!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 1, 2014)

Gunther, I think you meant 100 'pages' not 'sites'.
As for your point, I think it's because a) it's easier; and b) it builds on the people who have already subscribed/are following the initial post. I agree that it's a PITA to keep up with.


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## Jdiggity1 (Jan 1, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu 02 Jan said:


> Jdiggity1 @ Wed Jan 01 said:
> 
> 
> > I vote for a '+1' button so i stop having to scroll through pages of '+1"s!! (Looking at you Gunther...)
> ...



For a start, it would in no way take away the option of posting a "+1". I am happy for regular '+1'ers to keep on doing what they do.
It would instead* allow* other users such as myself who might be less comfortable in posting a '+1' to show appreciation for a post. In hindsight, what I was really wanting was a thumbs up, or 'like' button equivalent.

Furthermore, i noticed complaints about users having to scroll past 'useless' posts to get to the gold - an argument for the proposed moderation/censorship. My proposal could potentially further reduce such scroll time, no?

I didn't realise you had already mentioned Gunther's +1s. Now I feel like a bully!


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## germancomponist (Jan 1, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> Gunther, I think you meant 100 'pages' not 'sites'.
> As for your point, I think it's because a) it's easier; and b) it builds on the people who have already subscribed/are following the initial post. I agree that it's a PITA to keep up with.



Thanks for the hint, Ned! Exchanged.


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## KingIdiot (Jan 1, 2014)

Getting into more detail with the original post. Howabout we just restrict posting of onyone but the OP in the announcement thread. They are essentially advertisements and discussions just keep them in the " new posts". If I'm being completely honest. I fucking hate them. I think they are an abuse of the system in their current form. I don't think they should be censored. But should just be announcement posts. Locked threads. But if you are going to keep them open, then no, censorship isn't the answer.


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## Hans Adamson (Jan 1, 2014)

KingIdiot @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> Getting into more detail with the original post. Howabout we just restrict posting of onyone but the OP in the announcement thread. They are essentially advertisements and discussions just keep them in the " new posts". If I'm being completely honest. I fucking hate them. I think they are an abuse of the system in their current form. I don't think they should be censored. But should just be announcement posts. Locked threads. But if you are going to keep them open, then no, censorship isn't the answer.


I think KingIdiot's suggestion of a Forum dedicated to announcements, void of discussion, would have many advantages. A developer could safely post without fear of being criticized or attacked and it would also be more fair to smaller developers who most of the time is quickly kicked out of sight with the current system. Any developer who wants to take the heat can then voluntarily participate in the Sample discussion section.
/Hans


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## KingIdiot (Jan 1, 2014)

Hans Adamson @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> KingIdiot @ Wed Jan 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Getting into more detail with the original post. Howabout we just restrict posting of onyone but the OP in the announcement thread. They are essentially advertisements and discussions just keep them in the " new posts". If I'm being completely honest. I [email protected]#king hate them. I think they are an abuse of the system in their current form. I don't think they should be censored. But should just be announcement posts. Locked threads. But if you are going to keep them open, then no, censorship isn't the answer.
> ...



Also. How many of you use rss feeds? My feed doubles up every new post and those ugly discussions will take up nearly the whole feed. I know that's not gonna change the big discussions, but it will stop big bold announcement titles taking up unmanagable feeds. And it will keep big announcement titlea from staying on top of new postal like better advertising option based on argument popularity.

Save it for developers. Then we can look at that sub forum to see what's new from EVERYONE not the back and torture of the moment. No scrolling through ads. No janky ad getting over shadowed by the ultra high res ad with lens flare for the new toe snap library of the market.

But on general it can be an information thread.


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## mikebarry (Jan 1, 2014)

What I specifically asked for was the enforcement of traditional forum rules. Trolling needs to be addressed with suspensions then bans (just like every forum does - cars, hockey etc..) Endless banter between rivals needs to go to private messages or both members need to be banned - sick of reading that crap, 2 members who hate each other going at one another. Anonymous accounts need to be banned, you need to post a name and a link to your music - most video game forums do this now. 


That is what it comes down to for me, this forum is supported by advertising and if you want our money these are the conditions we want - otherwise we will not advertise here.


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## Hans Adamson (Jan 1, 2014)

mikebarry @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> What I specifically asked for was the enforcement of traditional forum rules. Trolling needs to be addressed with suspensions then bans (just like every forum does - cars, hockey etc..) Endless banter between rivals needs to go to private messages or both members need to be banned - sick of reading that crap, 2 members who hate each other going at one another. Anonymous accounts need to be banned, you need to post a name and a link to your music - most video game forums do this now.
> 
> 
> That is what it comes down to for me, this forum is supported by advertising and if you want our money these are the conditions we want - otherwise we will not advertise here.


I hold Frederick above allowing developers to dictate the forum's rules under threat of withdrawing advertising money. That path can only lead in one direction.


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## jamwerks (Jan 1, 2014)

mikebarry @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> FTR Vi is not even in our top ten refferers FWIW


Just curious, what do you mean by refferers?

I voted "yes". Wouldn't mind some more moderation here. Take Gear-Slutz for example, there is lots of moderation (deleted posts, etc.) there, and it's probably the most read forum in music.

There have been some extreme cases of real ass-holes joining threads aiming solely to hurt developers.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 1, 2014)

Mike,

This forum is first, and foremost an idea, a project to have a place where pros and beginners can exchange about composing for image. It's not a money-making enterprise alone. That's the way it was presented to me in the early beginnings of this place. If this forum were to break down due to lack of advertising, we'd just set up something else, smaller, humble, yet with the same spirit. If we're too small, too noisy, too tight with our money, too much of a PITA to monitor (users' reactions to releases, for e.g.) because we fight a lot here, then that's what we are! 

Threats will do nothing, AFAIK.


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## germancomponist (Jan 1, 2014)

Hans Adamson @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> mikebarry @ Wed Jan 01 said:
> 
> 
> > What I specifically asked for was the enforcement of traditional forum rules. Trolling needs to be addressed with suspensions then bans (just like every forum does - cars, hockey etc..) Endless banter between rivals needs to go to private messages or both members need to be banned - sick of reading that crap, 2 members who hate each other going at one another. Anonymous accounts need to be banned, you need to post a name and a link to your music - most video game forums do this now.
> ...



In the past I would have written a "+1". But now, because I know some people don't like my "+1" I will use words instead... :

Hans, I agree with you 100%!


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## AC986 (Jan 1, 2014)

You write what you like Gunther and don't worry about anyone else!


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## pkm (Jan 1, 2014)

Jdiggity1 @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> I vote for a '+1' button so i stop having to scroll through pages of '+1"s!! (Looking at you Gunther...)
> 
> Also, I really really really liked this post. I'd give it a thumbs up, but there is no button to do so.



I think an anonymous "+1" counter holds less weight and is less helpful than a personalized "+1" post from an person whose opinion you respect.


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## mikebarry (Jan 1, 2014)

Then maybe it's not a good fit anymore. I've gotten quite used to Facebook having real names. Those suggestions I made were just for the good of this forum - which I care about. They are not very evil suggestions. I wish the civil and helpful attitude would return. Even outside the commercial section.


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## germancomponist (Jan 1, 2014)

pkm @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> Jdiggity1 @ Wed Jan 01 said:
> 
> 
> > I vote for a '+1' button so i stop having to scroll through pages of '+1"s!! (Looking at you Gunther...)
> ...



No anonymous "+1" and "-1" please!

I am with Mike here: Real names, please!!!

Like on Facebook, show us the names who liked and/or disliked! This would be great!

I never was a friend of this anonymous names..... .


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## quantum7 (Jan 1, 2014)

I agree with members here using real names with links to their music, FB page. or personal website in their signature. I really REALLY hate anonymous posters who are too cowardice to let us know who they are when they start insulting members and developers. I have zero respect for people who hide behind anonymity. Most of these people would never act as they do if they were with us in person, all in a group together, but they sure act tough when they are hiding behind the protection of their laptops. :roll:

I also think that developers should be able to have a commercial announcement area that is highly monitored as to filter out the nonsense and arguments.....which we are free do do in other areas of the forum.


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## germancomponist (Jan 1, 2014)

quantum7 @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> I agree with members here using real names with links to their music, FB page. or personal website in their signature. I really REALLY hate anonymous posters who are too cowardice to let us know who they are when they start insulting members and developers. I have zero respect for people who hide behind anonymity. Most of these people would never act as they do if they were with us, in person, all in a group together, but they sure act tough when they are hiding behind the protection of their laptops. :roll:
> 
> I also think that developers should be able to have a commercial announcement area that is highly monitored as to filter out the nonsense and arguments.....which we are free do do in other areas of the forum.



I agree 100%!


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## quantum7 (Jan 1, 2014)

I also wanted to add that I sincerely believe that by minimizing anonymity, VI-Control would be a much more professional and friendly environment, dedicated to working professionals in the industry, helping one another out and learning from one another.


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## germancomponist (Jan 1, 2014)

quantum7 @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> I also wanted to add that I sincerely believe that by minimizing anonymity, VI-Control would be a much more professional and friendly environment, dedicated to working professionals in the industry, helping one another out and learning from one another.



Huh..., I wanted to write my "+1"..., but I will tell it with my own words: I agree here 100%!


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## jamwerks (Jan 1, 2014)

quantum7 @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> I also wanted to add that I sincerely believe that by minimizing anonymity, VI-Control would be a much more professional and friendly environment, dedicated to working professionals in the industry, helping one another out and learning from one another.


I don't agree. Anonymity is a question of personal preference, and in this day of NSA, being able to anonymously converse is a real treasure imo. Dicks will be dicks, even on forums with real signatures.

Referring again to Gear-slutz, some of the biggest dicks there were also well known professionals signing with their own names.


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## 667 (Jan 1, 2014)

I enjoy my anonymous life here at VI-C., if you want a name I will simply create a fake one. 

I think the first step in the right direction is simply to say do not be a jerk in the commercial announcements section. And mods should go delete/suspend/ban-happy there. For example I always assumed that it is very rude to bring up direct product comparisons in Commercial threads. That type of thing needs to be enforced (on top of general respect).

It's ok to hate a new product but it's not ok to take a dump on the commercial thread. You can actually ignore it and not post!  (This is very hard for some people).


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## NYC Composer (Jan 1, 2014)

quantum7 @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> I also wanted to add that I sincerely believe that by minimizing anonymity, VI-Control would be a much more professional and friendly environment, dedicated to working professionals in the industry, helping one another out and learning from one another.



I understand what you're saying and i believe it has some truth, but although I've posted numerous example that take the reader to my site where it's easy enough to find my name and information, I've been on the 'net since '91, and there are too many crazies for me to want to disseminate personal info on a daily basis.

Person to person, anyone I've gotten to know a bit can PM me and ask anything they like.


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## Casiquire (Jan 1, 2014)

Whether I put my full name in my signature or not, you'll still know nothing about me. I'm not a film score-er, I keep my whole life pretty close to the chest. I'm not "anonymous" here so that I can say rude things, as I don't believe I've ever said a single rude thing here to anybody, I'm simply a quiet individual using sample libraries for the love of the art. When it comes to art, I prefer NOT to be known by my full name, so using it here would be counter-productive anyway. Also...anybody who thinks that it's a good idea to plaster their names all over the internet hasn't met some of the lovely individuals that I have. Just my two cents.

Back on topic, I agree with 667 that it's not right for someone to start drawing comparisons between competing products in CA and saying "that sounds terrible!" or something similar, but I don't believe that stricter moderation would be a good idea since people are already mostly respectful. Any disrespectful comments are easy to ignore and are usually met with a response of "This isn't right in CA, save it for Sample Talk."


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## NYC Composer (Jan 1, 2014)

667 @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> I enjoy my anonymous life here at VI-C., if you want a name I will simply create a fake one.
> 
> I think the first step in the right direction is simply to say do not be a jerk in the commercial announcements section. And mods should go delete/suspend/ban-happy there. For example I always assumed that it is very rude to bring up direct product comparisons in Commercial threads. That type of thing needs to be enforced (on top of general respect).
> 
> It's ok to hate a new product but it's not ok to take a dump on the commercial thread. You can actually ignore it and not post!  (This is very hard for some people).



I don't want heavier handed moderation, but i totally agree that people shouldn't be jerks . "This product isn't as good as Company X's" within a commercial thread is bizarre and rude. A few months ago, someone brought up another company's product in a Commercial thread and I reacted to it by saying exactly that.

I said it early on though- if it's really "Commercial Announcements", limit it to stickies.


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## Theseus (Jan 1, 2014)

mikebarry @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> That is what it comes down to for me, this forum is supported by advertising and if you want our money these are the conditions we want - otherwise we will not advertise here.



Thanks for chiming in Mike. This is what I wrote previously in a previous thread:

_"What does common good means around here? For me it means composers helping fellow composers to make the best out of the VI world. The wealth and well-doing of developpers, as friendly, professional and moral as they might be is the least of my concerns. There will always be developpers because we're willing to spend the cash. But there might not always be people with no financial stakes willing to help this community get better. 

Try to think about it that way: is common good for Vi-C members the well-being of libraries producers or the well-being of composers? If it's the former, then we should embrace stricter moderation to protect the developpers. If it's the latter, then we should be grateful to the members that help us the most by using their talent and experience to guide us through the wild world of virtual instruments_."

Ironically, I took the example of the heated discussion you got a while ago with Piet about tape distortion on Piano in Blue. If it wasn't for Piet arguing rightfully about this over-the-top distortion, you probably wouldn't have gotten back to the recordings, since you were justifying it as part of tape routine, and we would be stuck with a pretty unusable tape option. Instead, we now enjoy a truly remarkable piano which is my go-to for Jazz. Yet, I believe that under stricter moderation, Piet insisting relentlessly would have probably caused him to be warned or banned for something he felt was desperately right and helpful to the community of composers and owners of your Piano library.

As much as I would like it to be otherwise, we have to face the truth: the interests of companies and users are antinomians and can't be reconciled simply out of willingness. In this regard, I don't think that threatening the community helps towards establishing consensus. And to put my money where my mouth is, I would gladly pay a hefty 50€ per month here just to make sure that Frederick's forum isn't put under this type of financial pressure by advertisers. Because last time I checked, it wasn't considered a normal ethical and moral behavior for an advertiser in a newspaper to dictate to the editor in chief what should be or not in the news and which journalist should be allowed to write... Or was it?


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## NYC Composer (Jan 1, 2014)

Theseus @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> mikebarry @ Wed Jan 01 said:
> 
> 
> > That is what it comes down to for me, this forum is supported by advertising and if you want our money these are the conditions we want - otherwise we will not advertise here.
> ...



I don't know I'd pay quite that much, but I'd pay much more than my present contribution. Again, why not make the Commercial Announcement section into stickies? 

As to Mike's obvious threat, yep. Back to Northern Sounds. Developer driven, be careful what you say.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 1, 2014)

While reading through this thread I came to this (very personal) conclusion: I am generally against fixed rules and would favor an approach that goes like _'as an idea we do it like this but there can be exceptions'_. Because nature works with fuzzy logic and lots of shades.

So what can be done instead of fixed rules? The key seems to be to have a good idea of what really is intended, and to communicate that idea. 

Frederic might agree or not but here is a try: the first principle or leading idea of this forum could be the analogy of a big public place (imagine a physical place) where _everybody keeps talking to everbody_. This - everybody being and _maintaining to be_ in contact with everybody like cells in an organism - is most important and probably the most valuable principle. So much to mutually learn here on lots of levels.
____________

Then: there is an area of the place where the vendors reside. The trade show quarter where every vendor has rented their little market stand and is present to answer questions related to their products. It should be _so obvious_ that usually this is not a good spot to unroll a banner saying 'don't buy these bananas, buy those'. The need of enforcing this by a forum rule would be actually a shame for us. Much better would be to give a general idea what this Commercial Announcements area is all about.

If vendors then want to mix into the street life, the pubs and cafés of this place called VI-control, well, expect some differing opinions there. If vendors master to handle critique _there _it can build up a lot of trust to their advantage and they keep their ear at the customers. But it is not a required skill, especially for young or new developers, and if this skill is not yet developed stay in the vendors corner that should be less stormy. 

_____________

The street life is it where another problem arises: People that are obsessed with the 'I'. _My _opinion, _my _postings, _my _reputation, _my _merits, _my _pride, _my _feuds. Look at me, I am important. Anybody or anything that goes against that 'me' will be attacked with more _me_. Call it trolling, call it derailing, the core of it is the _'me'_ or 'I'.

The forum moderators notice such behaviour but have in most cases decided that it does not go against any forum rule, and let it pass. In a way this is good because any behaviour needs to have its time and its effects in order to learn from it.

However this can lead to a situation where a much-typing minority actually begins to dominate the place while others leave it. Is this something to let go in the name of freedom of speech? Is this to happen without moderation because trolling and derailing is part of democracy?

This is an interesting question and goes quite deep. I understand why some have compared the use of more moderation to establishing a police state. But on the other hand: not acting when action is required is a misdeed, and can be as bad as a wrong action. I believe that if we study the development of police states then the non-acting of the reasonable forces helps them to raise their ugly head. Acting in time and in the right way needs courage and sometimes more the diplomacy of the heart than sheer power, but it is a must.
______________

The question is: _how_ to act?

Again, communicating an idea might help more than fixed rules. And the idea would be to concentrate on the topic, on the object, on the music, on the business, on the technology. Let us find moments when we forget the 'me' and it's history. It is so disburdening to take the 'I' out of the equations. No need to rebut, no need to revenge, no need for self-justification. Just examining the topic at hand. If we hold fast on that then we can even express critique.

One can spot where threads usually derail - often with somebody taking a comment personally and paying back. The frequent use of quotations and the words 'I' and 'me' are symptoms. Another symptom is the use of the word 'but'. Such as: 'I don't want to derail this thread but . . . '. There, with the 'me' and 'I' and 'but' things often start to go back and forth.

If we could maintain the quality of this thread throughout this forum, how great would that be!


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 1, 2014)

Great post, Theseus.

All of Mike's suggestions look perfectly reasonable on the face of it (and few can argue with threads become crushingly boring when taken over by an argument between two people), but there have been good counter-arguments raised in their wake. It's also a shame it came over as a bit of a threat, I'm sure that wasn't the intention.

I think another factor that makes people say "VI-C ain't what it used to be" is that competition has greatly increased. If there are 6 very high quality new string libraries released in a year, all with true legato, then it stands to reason that the customer expectation will rise compared to five years ago when there was only one or two. That increased expectation could be perceived as negative response, but I'm not always sure that's a fair summary.

EDIT - and a great post, Hannes. How to encourage this though?


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## NYC Composer (Jan 1, 2014)

That's a thoughtful post Hannes, but additionally, some use "I" to indicate they are not speaking for some internal cabal or as a representative of the correct opinion for everyone, but merely for themselves. Some like to purport that the weight of general opinion is behind them and that should validate their opinions.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 1, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> some use "I" to indicate they are not speaking . . . merely for themselves.



Larry, absolutely. An 'imo' or 'I think that' or 'In my opinion' is something different. This should have been added to my post.


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## mikebarry (Jan 1, 2014)

I think I've made me point clear, that is how I feel as a veteran of the board. Back in the day every other thread was full of tips tricks and helpful info. Tutorials were aplenty it was a place to share info. Now it's just a sort of the opposite. KvR generates more hits to our site. You guys decide how it should go. It doesn't affect my sales at all. Facebook generates more than 20 times the traffic than this site. Best to everyone.


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## germancomponist (Jan 1, 2014)

I always liked it to read posts from Hannes!


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## jamwerks (Jan 1, 2014)

mikebarry @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> I think I've made me point clear, that is how I feel as a veteran of the board. Back in the day every other thread was full of tips tricks and helpful info. Tutorials were aplenty it was a place to share info. Now it's just a sort of the opposite. KvR generates more hits to our site. You guys decide how it should go. It doesn't affect my sales at all. Facebook generates more than 20 times the traffic than this site. Best to everyone.


You don't sound very enthousiastic about this site :shock: FB doesn't provide us any tips, tricks or user info afaik. And keep in mind there are many "guest" visitors getting info here, that then might follow you elsewhere.

I remember you guys were very unjustly attacked (imo) on an early CinePerc thread, where the poster actually modified the attached audio. That's something that active moderation with well established rules, could have prevented.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 1, 2014)

Since it fits so well: The posts of Mike Barry illustrate what I meant above as a practical example.

My first stimulus to think is: If we are not good enough for you then stay away, and I don't want this forum to be extorted, and who do you think you are to give us orders. (Well, some exaggeration here, I don't think exactly that, just a hint of it).

Then I hold on for a second and realize that there is much 'I' in it. I have taken it personally. By that I missed that I agree with lots of what Mike Barry said: Threads are highjacked and trolled too much, moderation should kick earlier into feuds, and let us return to more quality.

Also I breached my (self-chosen) first principle: Everybody keeping contact with everybody. I want them to be part of this community.

And then I missed to notice that Mike Barry actually shared an information about link counts that nobody of us had before.

As a result I will edit my opinion in my head and come to the conclusion that I want the Mikes to stay here and that it is true: we need some change - however not because we are forced by money or outside influence but mainly because it is the right thing to do.


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 1, 2014)

mikebarry @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> I think I've made me point clear, that is how I feel as a veteran of the board. Back in the day every other thread was full of tips tricks and helpful info. Tutorials were aplenty it was a place to share info. Now it's just a sort of the opposite. KvR generates more hits to our site. You guys decide how it should go. It doesn't affect my sales at all. Facebook generates more than 20 times the traffic than this site. Best to everyone.



Thanks for that!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 1, 2014)

When people have unfairly IMHO attacked EW, I have often said, "Fortunately, this forum is not the epicenter of the sample library customer universe.

MB has just corroborated that.

Speaking for EW, it does not mean we do not value you, because we DO, which is why Doug advertises here and partly why I spend a lot of time here. But compared to either Gearlsutz or Facebook, I doubt it matters as much just in terms of one person getting another to buy.


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## KingIdiot (Jan 1, 2014)

mikebarry @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> I think I've made me point clear, that is how I feel as a veteran of the board. Back in the day every other thread was full of tips tricks and helpful info. Tutorials were aplenty it was a place to share info. Now it's just a sort of the opposite. KvR generates more hits to our site. You guys decide how it should go. It doesn't affect my sales at all. Facebook generates more than 20 times the traffic than this site. Best to everyone.



this is why I say don't give developer's the power. When it comes down to it, in the end it will usually money over you/the community. I don't blame them, it's a business, but it ends up a game of power.

while I agree I think the site has gone down hill, with the loss of what mike is describing I think it has a lot to do with the developer access, and developer worship. They don't do much to curb it by allowing all the posts in their announcements to get to the top constantly, with random praise and unhelpful posts, probably even thrive on those announcement threads staying up in front. Again why I would love to see them locked to only the developer posting.

let's stop making/allowing this site to just be an advertising/marketing bulletin board, and we might actually see what it was like in the beginning when people actually did more to work on things, instead of juts ask developers to make their next product with whatever they hope so they can dump money into it. 

It's not moderation's fault, and not censorship's. It's the community as a whole. We are all responsible, and I do not believe more moderation is the answer. It's the saturation of developers, and this place being allowed to be used as a big advertising campaign. We allow that.

Howabout thread ratings. By those posting in them. The more high star users posting in the thread, the higher the thread rating gates. We can then reset the voting system for users to get that ball going. Is that even possible? It would make for both community member's level of interaction and helpfulness be linked to the type of threads that would get more visibility. Though I'm sure I'm asking for more than is currently available in BBS systems, most likely.

Advertisement/announcement threads should be exempt of course.


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## KingIdiot (Jan 1, 2014)

this site is doing weird things with editing/quoting right now, I can't delete this double post.


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## Theseus (Jan 1, 2014)

It's getting funny, but the more I read how unimportant VI is in terms of sales for companies -which obviously invest here in some kind of Good Samaritan manner, because we're good folks after all! - the more I feel that we shouldn't have stricter moderation of commercial announcements but simply no commercial announcements at all!!! Seriously, there are plenty places to get those infos which aren't exclusive to Vi, and pretty much like Graham at Gearslutz, we could copy-paste those announcements ourselves here. Announcers can keep advertising with banners if they wish, and the problem is solved. If they want feedback, they can discuss their product in sample talks. That's it, no more advertorial which lead to confusion, announcers thinking it's only fair game to control what is being said in "their" thread, and users thinking it's only fair game to discuss the pros and cons as they want.

Fixing the problem rather than its consequences.


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## Arbee (Jan 1, 2014)

Theseus @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> It's getting funny, but the more I read how unimportant VI is in terms of sales for companies -which obviously invest here in some kind of Good Samaritan manner, because we're good folks after all! - the more I feel that we shouldn't have stricter moderation of commercial announcements but simply no commercial announcements at all!!! Seriously, there are plenty places to get those infos which aren't exclusive to Vi, and pretty much like Graham at Gearslutz, we could copy-paste those announcements ourselves here. Announcers can keep advertising with banners if they wish, and the problem is solved. If they want feedback, they can discuss their product in sample talks. That's it, no more advertorial which lead to confusion, announcers thinking it's only fair game to control what is being said in "their" thread, and users thinking it's only fair game to discuss the pros and cons as they want.
> 
> Fixing the problem rather than its consequences.


This is why I would favour Commercial Announcements being one way traffic, with Sample Talk for the reviews, debate, knowledge sharing etc. Clean and simple, and less complexity for moderation. I really like the fertile environment here, warts n' all, just not in the same thread where a developer is presenting and explaining their new library to us.

Edit: perhaps look at the current Berlin Strings thread as an example, all 23 pages of it, and it only took about 5 posts for competitor products to get a mention. If OT could just use this thread to share the roll out progressively and perhaps even respond there to comments over in Sample Talk for workarounds, bug fixes, rebuttals, tips and tricks etc this would, IMHO, make things a lot cleaner and easier all round.

.


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## Maestro77 (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm surprised at how close this poll is. Why would anyone want a public forum to be censored? I think it's easy enough to filter out the silly commentary. It's not worth limiting member freedom.


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## ProtectedRights (Jan 1, 2014)

Arbee @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> just not in the same thread where a developer is presenting and explaining their new library to us.



Thats usually just the first post. And to moderate subsequent posts with hairsplitting distinction between questions, factual statements and opinions is just overkill in my view. The first post will always remain clean, the dev can add all needed information into that post.


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## quantum7 (Jan 1, 2014)

Maestro77 @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> I'm surprised at how close this poll is. Why would anyone want a public forum to be censored? I think it's easy enough to filter out the silly commentary. It's not worth limiting member freedom.



I don't think that anyone in their right mind wants censorship.....at least in the strictest meaning of the word, but a lot of people would like _some_ moderation to keep order and not drive developers and professionals away. Of course, to some people not allowing absolute anarchy is a form of censorship. I guess it all just depends on one's concept of censorship.


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 1, 2014)

@Mikebarry I agree with your assertion that the lack of civility that is becoming increasingly commonplace at this forum is harming the growth of the community and I share your hope it will be addressed. I'm certain if you didn't add the threat to pull your advertising, many more here would state their agreement with you.

However, as a marketing pro with expertise in digital marketing and advertising, I hope I can stop you from making a critical and very fundamental error in media strategy. In simple, non-jargon, terms, you cannot measure the value of a media vehicle based solely on the volume of referrals with no consideration given to the quality of that traffic. It's media strategy 101, really. Any effective media strategy involves selecting vehicles that are based on the audience's fit with your target market(s). A niche vehicle like VI Control, will reach a much smaller audience than a non-niche vehicle for sure. But volume has zero correlation to quality. For example, KVR casts a wider net than VI Control in terms visitor profiles. It covers every genre and likely has a much higher ratio of pure hobbyists the community than VI-Control, which certainly has more pros, semi-pros and serious amateurs aspiring to be pros all of which likely significantly more per capita on cinematic libraries like you make then KVR members. A sound media strategy considers the value of the niche site audience in relation to the brand's objectives and needs to answer questions such as: What are the avg purchases of each site's visitors and their propensity to purchase my type of product. Of course, not all audiences/people have the same worth to an advertiser, and many niche vehicles are very effective at reaching a small, but highly coveted audiences (such as pro composers who make avg annual purchases of $5,000 USD per yr on your category of sample libraries as compared to a general site where the avg user may spend $350 USD per yr and rarely make purchases on the category of libraries you sell) and charge a much higher rate per person reached/per thousand or per action than non-niche sites. If your media "strategy" is based purely on volume, you can reach large amounts of people with a very low propensity to purchase, low propensity to purchase your category of product and/or a low propensity to purchase at the same volume per customer as members of niche vehicle would. That said, if you're intentionally making your decision purely based on emotion or convictions, please disregard. But you were writing a case that VI Control is not a valid vehicle for your business based purely on volume of traffic with no consideration to the quality of that traffic for your business, which is really no strategy at all and there couldn't be worse business advice you could give to small business people about buying media than spending based on mere traffic quantity. It's a path to bankruptcy.


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## quantum7 (Jan 1, 2014)

I agree that this forum is probably the single most valuable vehicle to reach people, such as myself, that spend large amounts of money annually on sample libraries. I think I've visited any developers FB page maybe 3 times in the past year. Forums like VI-Control...heck, mostly VI-Control is where I go to learn about my next sample lib purchase. This forum needs to keep great developers, like Cinesamples, at least reasonably happy as to keep them here....because if they all leave, others may be more inclined leave.


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## mikebarry (Jan 1, 2014)

Guys - I don't want to get all lectured and stuff I am just offering my honest opinion mostly as a member who now owns a sample company. Things have gotten strange here. I don't like it - I would rather contribute my limited time elsewhere. I am just speaking bluntly and honestly - apoliticallly. I really do want you all to be successful and happy and truthful - that's all I am doing right now.


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## synergy543 (Jan 1, 2014)

Maestro77 @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> I'm surprised at how close this poll is. Why would anyone want a public forum to be censored? I think it's easy enough to filter out the silly commentary. It's not worth limiting member freedom.


Sadly, I'm afraid that the suits with their 20 years of marketing experience and moneyed interests seem to be trying to take over vi-control. And this first day of 2014 is enough evidence of their success - it seems in every thread I read, there are a deluge of posts by these marketing men with their endless posts on their agenda. This pretty much kills the vibe here for me as these pointless threads seem such a waste of time not to mention the forum seems to have virtually ground to a halt.

I'll have to leave this place sadly as I can't afford to waste this time. 

Bye - it was nice while it lasted.


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## devastat (Jan 1, 2014)

I really like the analogy of the "place where the vendors reside", and the "big public place", and I personally believe that what this forum needs is a bigger distinction between the two. The vendors place should be moderated to remain on-topic and civil at all times, and in the big public place everyone should be equal and no one should be afraid to discuss openly and in civil matter all things related to music making and products that people are using.

Sometimes I feel that users are misusing the vendors place and using these commercial discussions in their personal vendetta against the developer, and sometimes I feel the sample developer is misusing the big public place by creating an atmosphere where any criticism towards their product should be punishable by law.

When two opposing ideas arise, why should it be a bad thing? Lots of great ideas and discussions arise when two people are talking passionately about something that they very personally care about..


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 1, 2014)

I've been here long enough to know that people will come and others will leave. Some will threaten to leave, leave and come back a few weeks later. Others may leave for good. That's a drag, but that's also the way forums work.

It does sadden me a bit that some people come here only for purchase advice, and maybe that's a bad sign. I feel that there needs to be less emphasis on buying and more emphasis on sharing (ideas, tips, advice), and will try to do my part by participating more often in discussions that do not have anything to do with buying sounds/instruments.

This place is what YOU make of it.


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## mikebarry (Jan 1, 2014)

Ned is right, the advice and tutorials and helpfulness is what drew the developers here. Not visa versa. Most of us were members here even before the companies started. This was a good place to hang and talk and share.


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 1, 2014)

synergy543 @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> Maestro77 @ Wed Jan 01 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm surprised at how close this poll is. Why would anyone want a public forum to be censored? I think it's easy enough to filter out the silly commentary. It's not worth limiting member freedom.
> ...



Hold on a minute. Why the need to insult people? Step back for a minute and take a breather. If there is this commercial takeover going on that you believe is going on, I'm actually not a part of it. I was just drawing on my expertise to explain the merits of VI Control to an advertiser and why his assertion was incorrect and will be a bad strategic decision because I am knowledgeable in this area, nothing more. To address my own reason for being here, I joined VI Control not as part of some moneyed interest (I spend it on this stuff, ask my wife!), but in order to learn more about orchestration, string arranging and tools (sample libraries, VSTs, etc). My music background is this: 12 years working professionally (mostly part time), traveling, playing clubs, colleges, fests and recording; playing in front of audiences since I was around 8 in a family band and student orchestras starting at 11. These days, I am a hobbyist who has long maintained a home DAW based setup and lots of musical instruments. 

If you noticed my earlier posts in this thread, my position is that we need both positive and negative posts and the place for increased moderation is when a poster is makes personal insults or threats directed other members/developers or serially engages in driving threads off topic. Look at the KHS thread and note that I referred to MUK, who stated he really didn't like the sound of the KHS library, that it didn't sound good to his ears (that's a paraphrase), a model community member. Why? Because he stated his honest opinion and stated it without disrespecting anyone else. It doesn't matter whether he had a positive or negative opinion, they're both important parts of the conversation. And yes, I actually advise KHS. I only objected to behavior where people made some very over-the-top nasty personal insults at the developer and other forum members for merely expressing an opinion on a sample library or the developer's work. 

As far as your assertion that advertisers have taken over VI Control and are turning things into a kind of police state, it is disproved by the mere presence of your post -- that it hasn't been edited or deleted. Like any site funded largely by advertising, this site will always face balancing the wants of advertisers with those of community members. If you don't like that, you could make a sizable financial contribution to replace the revenue advertisers would have provided or make the case that it should instead switch its revenue model to be subscription based.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 1, 2014)

mikebarry @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> I think I've made me point clear, that is how I feel as a veteran of the board. Back in the day every other thread was full of tips tricks and helpful info. Tutorials were aplenty it was a place to share info. Now it's just a sort of the opposite. KvR generates more hits to our site. You guys decide how it should go. It doesn't affect my sales at all. Facebook generates more than 20 times the traffic than this site. Best to everyone.



And does that equal 20 times the revenue as well?

Edit- I have been chewing on Mike's statement all day, tried to let it go but can't quite.

I own four of Cinesamples' smaller libraries and have contemplated a bunch more. The libraries I own have pleased me. Up 'til recently, I've admired the way the company has handled itself publicly, though it was my guess that trying to deal as directly with consumers as they were was going to ultimately be untenable. Still, for every rude, obnoxious post sent their way from here, I've seen at least 10 enthusiastically positive ones, most of those obsequious to the point of buttkissing. 

Now maybe this was one intemperate post by Mike, or maybe I've misinterpreted it, but have we here at V.I.C. just been told the Mikes don't need our business? It would be helpful to get complete clarity on this important new statement so it can be taken under advisement.

Mike, you have my name in your database, but lest you think I'm hiding under a veil of anonymity, you're welcome to PM me. I'll give you my name, height , weight, hobbies, bra size, name it and it's yours.


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## StatKsn (Jan 1, 2014)

I have seen a lot of weird thread-derailing here and there when people gets emotional, and I have to say that it bothers me a bit when browsing for information. For example, the Spotlight group-buy thread which went too far from what the thread title suggests. I think it'd be good to separate the thread when a discussion goes nowhere.


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## KingIdiot (Jan 2, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> I've been here long enough to know that people will come and others will leave. Some will threaten to leave, leave and come back a few weeks later. Others may leave for good. That's a drag, but that's also the way forums work.
> 
> It does sadden me a bit that some people come here only for purchase advice, and maybe that's a bad sign. I feel that there needs to be less emphasis on buying and more emphasis on sharing (ideas, tips, advice), and will try to do my part by participating more often in discussions that do not have anything to do with buying sounds/instruments.
> 
> This place is what YOU make of it.



WE make of it, but its OK ,... you stink


Trust though. I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly. I really really miss sharing in ideas. I have a new rig, and as soon as I'm out of the crazy going on here in life, I will have it set up and ready to go back to madman land and share some older ideas for fun. If we can get away from our wallets need to empty themselves and back to our brains willingness to learn and push he tools we currently have, maybe well get back to a point where we aren't just adding back to the hype, and back to creativity and music making! 

BTW it seems were getting pretty off topic, but I believe it has more to do with the problem thancensorship.

I see mikes point about thread control. Maybe we can self monitor as a community in that we can suggest splitting to new threads when bickering occurs but members would still like to keep it public. Its easy to split of a thread by linking and copypastaing into quotes. Maybe we can ask for that instead of censorship. Continue the discussion openly and freely, but in its own "sub thread" with links and references. If its too difficult for the user then a request via the moderators. A more traffic direction level of policing, instead of riot cop.


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## voxhumana (Jan 2, 2014)

mikebarry @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> Facebook generates more than 20 times the traffic than this site. Best to everyone.



FWIW - I've connected with you on Facebook and have responded to some of your ad posts (plus - importantly - I have bought some stuff, such as CineStrings Core).

However none of that would have happened without VI Control. Same for Sonokinetic, Project SAM and Sample Modelling - all of them have sold stuff to me as a direct result of VI Control. I use this site as my exclusive source of new info - have done for almost two years. 

For the record, it looks like I spent almost AU$12,000 on VI related products in 2013 (roughly $11K US). Without intending to sound arrogant, I think that nudges me into the "target customer" category (from a vendor's perspective.) 

So sure, you may get more punters on Facebook, but IMO the quality customers are far more likely to be here.


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## mikebarry (Jan 2, 2014)

This is going to be my last post - as the circle talk drives me loopy. This is getting silly. 

We (meaning Mike and I) are not sitting around like Mr Burns scheming on ways to rip you guys off. We are just normal dudes running a business - trying especially hard to be fair and honest - we don't have classic business training. I am not sitting here pouring endless thought and revision into my words on this forum - and even in this thread I feel like I am having words shoved into my mouth. I am making no threats - I can't even believe people honestly think that. It only makes me feel even farther like an old fart, yearning on my porch for the old days. This has about 1% to do with money - the money to pay for the ad is INSIGNIFICANT - it is 99% to do with civility. At this point in my life I don't want to be involved with negative energy - as a person I don't like it - I have enough of it from my battles with Unions. Its just not worth the mental stress. Call me a hippy but that is what I believe. My three suggestions were just a brainstorm on how to get some civility back here as the zeitgeist of the board is very negatve now. peace


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 2, 2014)

synergy543 @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> Maestro77 @ Wed Jan 01 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm surprised at how close this poll is. Why would anyone want a public forum to be censored? I think it's easy enough to filter out the silly commentary. It's not worth limiting member freedom.
> ...



Surely you jest. What suits? Have you flipped through the banners and looked in commercial? Most of us are just 1-4 people in size!


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## NYC Composer (Jan 2, 2014)

It consistently amazes me how asking a direct question about a provocative statement will send someone off in an odd defensive direction that has nothing to do with the question asked. So much for clarification.

Meanwhile, for the nth time- will someone please explain to me why a Commercial Announcements subforum consisting only of stickies is a bad idea? It seems to me that it would solve a lot of the stated problems. Threads can be started in SampleTalk to discuss new offerings, devs can choose to participate or not, meanwhile their Commercial Announcements remain pristine-why wouldn't that work for all?

That discussions should remain civil and that people should check themselves is absolutely true- and that goes for devs as well, btw.


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## G.R. Baumann (Jan 2, 2014)

Greetings,

I would like to understand a few things better, hence I am just asking a few questions, whereby I have no idea who could really answer them except perhaps some mods:

1.

Would it be wrong to say that this, shall we say "Initiative", is mainly driven by one or more developers who expressed that they are not happy with some aspects of communication on VIC and demand change?

2. 

Would I be wrong to think that VIC is not a profit driven site, but attempts to cover the running costs by adverts and a yearly fundaiser? 

Thanks
Georg


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## muk (Jan 2, 2014)

I completely agree with this:



mikebarry @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> My three suggestions were just a brainstorm on how to get some civility back here as the zeitgeist of the board is very negatve now. peace



And with Ned's post.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 2, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> It consistently amazes me how asking a direct question about a provocative statement will send someone off in an odd defensive direction that has nothing to do with the question asked. So much for clarification.
> 
> Meanwhile, for the nth time- will someone please explain to me why a Commercial Announcements subforum consisting only of stickies is a bad idea? It seems to me that it would solve a lot of the stated problems. Threads can be started in SampleTalk to discuss new offerings, devs can choose to participate or not, meanwhile their Commercial Announcements remain pristine-why wouldn't that work for all?
> 
> That discussions should remain civil and that people should check themselves is absolutely true- and that goes for devs as well, btw.



Stickies - so for clarification, just posts by the developers on their own threads with updates, and no general contributions? (Sorry if I got it mixed up). I think a number of people said that would be a loss in as much as direct feedback with the devs would be lost. When the system works well currently, people can just post a factual question and get a factual answer. If devs just limited themselves to a version of CA with no back and forth of any kind, then I'd agree with some of the others and think that would indeed be a loss. Effectively it would just be a bunch-a-billboards.

Peter - it doesn't really matter what the size of the company is. I can understand the touchiness when it comes to independence, the spectre of Northern Sounds looms large (I was banned for typing the word "p e t t i n h o u s e" with the gaps in so I could acknowledge the existence of a company who didn't advertise there. Clearly we're nowhere near that absurd point, but I can understand that if there's a perception that a dev is able to lock a thread or there's a belief that there is developer control or else they will withdraw financial support, then its pretty cancerous.

To the Mike and CineSamples situation (and this is purely my opinion, other opinions are available) I think Mike's responses are best understood in context of the free snare debacle. I think there are some specific developer relations that still need to be repaired after that, since there was a breakdown of the moderation system. Effectively they were slapped in the face for offering a generous freebie, and that slapping was given moderator backing. Ever since then they've been very cool regarding VI-C, and I have every sympathy with their grievance.

However, I don't agree with all the points Mike is making here. Actually there are still plenty of useful tips and tutorials around, and there's wise advice for anyone who asks for it (and I frequently benefit) - the decision whether or not to contribute to the annual VI-C fundraiser is an easy one. I think the landscape has changed because once it was all-in-this-together, and now many members have themselves become developers in a highly competative environment. CineStrings price and date was announced, and suddenly both Spifire's Mural and Berlin Strings were mentioned before the launch, whereas there'd not been a peep of it before. Is that fair? It's fair in as much as capitalism is fair. Sure sometimes members can be unduly negative, but as big (or bigger) factor is that the landscape of the developers that has changed the picture. The days of pooling resources for a new exclusive sampling project are gone, because its no longer necessary to anything like the same extent. Those pioneers who made a DIY sample library a decade ago are now split a dozen ways, all trying to be the best of the best. And that's where the hurt feelings come - each company works phenomenally hard, but if punters prefer Company B who have also worked phenomenally hard on their Sample Library B project and give a cool reaction to company A as a result... again, that's the inevitable consequence of capitalism.

I also agree with those who have said VI-C has a huge influence in this particular market. I don't pretend to know where the data comes from, but I too look at KVR and Facebook, but it's VI-C where I form my opinions.


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## KingIdiot (Jan 2, 2014)

Mike, I know you seem exhausted and I knwo you're frustrated, but it really feels like a few of us are trying to discuss something to try an make the place better, and because no one is just accepting your suggestion, you're calling it circle talk.

I'm getting nothing but negativity form your last words in here. I, as well as other (some developers even) are actively suggesting new options and ideas and brainstorming like was suggested, and you're just complaining about being an old fart, and not liking things as if they are going in circles. That's not hippy. Believe me I lived in Berkeley for a while. They love to dance in circles.

I'm not just trying to throw it back in your face, and I am admittedly a bit exhausted, as I've been taking night watch since Sunday in the hospital for my father in a bad place. (this place helps distract me, and I really do believe in community and the niche market these types of products can cater towards in specific ways, and is something that I used to really love and want to help nurture)

It really seems that you're just tired and that really bums me out. It's not really feeling like it's about community and working through it together with you, it's about not getting what you want, and feeling like you don't like it, and not actively working through it. That's not caring about the place, it's just saying"I don't want to be here" that's totally fine, but you are also saying actively "we're taking our business elsewhere" and that's coming off kind of condescending. I'm not stranger to that. I do that a lot, but it's really weird coming from someone throwing the word "money" around.

Forums will never be facebook, it's not the way it goes. And this place is WAY more niche than someplace like KvR. Though That place does have a more helpful community because it is focused more on use of product, instead of purchase, which this place is lacking, and if I may be blunt it's partly an issue because of the discussions you and other developers have started with releasing and allowing discussions in the announce threads and crazy amouut of releases next to each other lately... it's how it goes near xmas everywhere. The focus becomes on new product that NO ONE has so it's about purchase, release and not about use. It's about potential (both good and bad), and not about actual usage. It's about promotion.

circle talk or not, this here what we are all trying to do is what you do with people in a group when you work through with things. Sit around together to do so. it has to be post by post on a forum. I feel like that's what we're doing, but you're not actively engaging the discussion anymore. Just bitching, just like some of the folk that do about product in announcement thread, or hostile bug report posts. You want what you want, and if you don't get exactly your way, it's lame, is what I'm getting from your vibe. That's a shitty thing for a prominent member or developer to do for something they claim drew them here.

Again not trying to lecture, just trying to suggest that to fix things actually discussing is the way to do things, instead of just saying what you don't like, and asking why this place can't be like places that it obviously never was. Civility, I can agree we need. But if we're not trying to lead by example, then how is it gonna change. And I know I'm not a pinnacle example, far from it, but I can really feel like I'm trying, as well as a few others. I don't feel that from you here in this thread. Not at all.

lets' actively get this place back on track, together. If we aren't doing that together, whats the fucking use of this place but to be static information source. It might as well just be Gamefaqs pages and text and shitty ascii image logos.

(I'm sure I will re red this post and feel a little bad. I'm sure it's full of contradictions and pot calling kettle black, it's late, I'm working on little sleep, but I really want to be involved in trying to help get this place to a productive place. Without the people who built this community I wouldn't be as excited about the tools we all have available. I believe others feel that way too)


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## Arbee (Jan 2, 2014)

G.R. Baumann @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> Greetings,
> 
> I would like to understand a few things better, hence I am just asking a few questions, whereby I have no idea who could really answer them except perhaps some mods:
> 
> ...


I'm starting to regret my original post about post derailment, I had no idea it would get tangled up with the KH thread and lead us here. I'm not a developer and have no association with any, so no, not driven entirely by developers although I can understand it may be starting to look that way.

.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 2, 2014)

(King Idiot's post above is totally, utterly outstanding - and ps, KI, I wish you and your family the best).


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## Daryl (Jan 2, 2014)

Whilst I do see a bit of negatively here, I think that some people confuse negativity with honesty.

The reason a few developers don't feel the love here is that they don't like to hear about the issues with their products. As some of them are, or at least were, primarily composers, they only know how their product fits their own workflow. Therefore if someone chooses to use it in a different way, it might not work as well. Whilst a developer might not like to hear that their product really can't do X or Y, they must understand that the purchaser is entitled to feel that they have made a bad choice.

As far as I'm concerned there is nothing wrong with posting and pointing out all the issues with products. My only beef would be in language used. However, in the end it doesn't matter how it is phrased; if you think a product is a virtual turd, using Latin doesn't improve it.

D


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## KingIdiot (Jan 2, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> (King Idiot's post above is totally, utterly outstanding - and ps, KI, I wish you and your family the best).



Thanks guy. trust, tat I am not fishing for sympathy, I'm just really trying to commit to a level of transparency to help temper what you read with my actual headspace as well as intent. It's a bit of a disclaimer to state that I'm probably a bit loopy myself. But I know it's a great place for me to distract myself as I sit her under the fluorescents.

I love this community. It's full of friends and supportive people. Yes there's some people who are a bit aggressive, but so are some of the neighbors in most neighborhoods.

This is what the voting/star system is for, to help us decide who to invite to the BBQs. Who gets to throw pool parties, who has the bands together, and who's invited to the swingers party's. We figure it out together.

EDIT: This isn't what the star system is. Apparently it's just years you've been a member, which means, I'm the old creepy dude throwing the swinger party.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 2, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Jan 02 said:
> 
> 
> > It consistently amazes me how asking a direct question about a provocative statement will send someone off in an odd defensive direction that has nothing to do with the question asked. So much for clarification.
> ...



Guy, yes, it would be billboards unsullied by grafitti, then the more on point discussions could be started in SampleTalk, and as I said, devs could choose to participate or not at the level they choose without having their paid adverts slimed by grumbling.

Something might be lost, something might be gained, maybe it would help peace reign in the valley. Personally, I suspect Cinesamples, for example, is working too hard at developing and their other projects to respond in the way they have in the past, anyway.

@ashif- sorry to hear about your father, man. I hope it goes as well as it can.


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## G.R. Baumann (Jan 2, 2014)

Arbee @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> G.R. Baumann @ Thu Jan 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Greetings,
> ...



Hey, just to clarify, my questions had not intention to come across as cynical or condescending. I am simply not certain what the status quo here is.

@Kingidiot

I hope you are not regretting anything you wrote here, it was simply a sincere and honest view, a view that I share for what it's worth. Try to get some rest.

@All

As Kingidot expressed so eloquently, I too feel that throwing a tantrum to get what you want is kinda silly, really. 

To me personally, it seems the longer we talk about it, the bigger the problem appears to be. In reality however, what is the problem? 

Isolated events of miscommunication? Someone farting too loud or getting a hissy fit? Hey, welcome to the real world. :lol: :wink: 

To me all this appears as if we make an elephant out of a fly.

Someone earlier expressed how many purchase decisions had been influenced by visting VIC, and I would like to emphasize this. I for one give a damn about Facebook, and I refuse to participate there at all. 

FWIW Most of the sales in the past two years that has shrunk my account was influenced directly by VIC. See? It is all your fault Frederick!

Best
G


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## Arbee (Jan 2, 2014)

G.R. Baumann @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> Arbee @ Thu Jan 02 said:
> 
> 
> > G.R. Baumann @ Thu Jan 02 said:
> ...


Sorry Georg, I hope my response didn't sound narky, didn't mean it to be - I'm just not sure how to stop this runaway train  

And KI, great post and best wishes!

.


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## G.R. Baumann (Jan 2, 2014)

Arbee @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> Sorry Georg, I hope my response didn't sound narky, didn't mean it to be - I'm just not sure how to stop this runaway train
> 
> And KI, great post and best wishes!
> 
> .



No worries! See, I did not even read or participate in the derailment thread you mentioned. I do not see enough derailment on this forum to be an issue really. I'd rather see them as isolated events.

All in all, I perceive the atmosphere here as generally friendly and caring. I guess this is the best I can say about all this here and I shall leave it with that and take a seat in the back.

Best
G


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## KingIdiot (Jan 2, 2014)

thank you all for the well wishes. Let's keep this on track.

So here's another suggestion for the announce threads, since it seems like people do like to ask questions. What about announcement threads that are developer only, and then a question thread that THEY set up, where people can submit some informal but succinct suggestions to that aren't immediately responded to, but rather a group of questions are compiled from the question thread and are answers in one quote -> answer post within the announce thread? Thus allowing it to be strictly developer interaction, and not people who know a dude who might know how something works who can suggest that it's awesome and you will be pleased, or an asshole like me can say "that's impossible".

Something functional like an interview/question setup that keeps the announce threads in order and clear/succinct. It doesn't have to be that long, and it can be done in pieces whenever the developer has time, and th question thread can be kept clear of discussion so it's clean and available for developers. This can be a way to self moderate ourselves, and allow developers to have some breathing room, instead of answering all kinds of questions and addressing concerns and dealing with jackasses all at the same time. Something a bit more controlled. Allowing for updates to the thread and walk-throughs art lists or unveiling in slow curtain pulling like some seem to like. Keeping it in a nice tight order.

While in sample talk people can have at it in their own threads. of "so what are you thinking of XXX's new shoe stomp library? And be free to post opinions and comparisons on why you think it will or wont be awesome, knowing it's all speculation.

If developers want to jump into that ions den there, it's their own bobby brown, but those that are savvy would read them, and make additional videos/demo/audio to post into the announce thread addressing what might be concerns in the sample talk thread. They don't HAVE to interact, but a smart developer could use it to gauge consensus, and if they don't really care about what the community thinks, they don't have to worry about it. if they do, they can get into it via detailed calm and clear responses without ever.

I guess there's opportunities for this system to be abused, or even be passive aggressive, but something like ti might keep a little of what people are all asking.

Maybe we can add a sub section for unreleased libraries in the sample talk, and once they release (say a week after) the speculation thread can be closed?

I know I'm just spit balling. It's 4am but I'm trying t address what everyone's brought up and wants in the announce threads (which was the original post). I DO think that there can be better ways to do the announce threads than they are right now, but general moderation isn't the key, but rather a process that can make this place unique and allow accessibility to the developers that definitely is kind of neat (and again would make this place an ideal place for devs to be a part of)

as for the more helpful and constructive threads or posting, that's up to us. I'm more than willing to try to get back into suggestions and doing audio/demo posts of how things might be able to be made better.

maybe we can pull back the idea that every developer should do everything we want, pulling the "if you do this I'll buy this in an instant" mentality, and developers can pull back the idea that their libraries can do everything (without showing demos of it), and accepting that it just might not be to the liking of some users. We all have different tastes, experience, and desires.

I would keep rambling but this post has taken me an hour to write in pieces, so I'm not even sure I'm being coherent right now. So I'm going to stop. I welcome some detailed ideas from all of ou though, and I think all the mods, and developers who might spend the time to read and who DO want this place to be something unique and inspiring can come to take in the ideas we all share and see if something is worth trying (or piecing together ideas into something is worth it)

We're obviously looking to make some changes and nurture the vibe that started this place. Let's get into it with still giving each other a place that no one is saying "shut the fuck up"

though, with my verbosity, I'm sure there's a lot f that going. kudos to anyone who got through this ramble, you are a masochist. I mean I couldn't be arse'd to re read it


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 2, 2014)

King Idiot - I read nearly all of it!

I think your modified CA idea sounds very promising. It takes the intent of mine, but greatly reduces all of the real world moderation problems. Triffic!

I think a separate questions thread though might be a bit convoluted? That would potentially make three threads per library - announcement, questions and discussion, and there's no guarantee that the questions thread itself won't go wonky. 
But this surely can't be beyond the wit of us all to resolve the mechanics of this. I don't know the best way of setting up the mechanics - folks could PM the dev with questions is one thought, but they might not like 200 pms.

One other low tech solution, potentially open to abuse but maybe much more easily moderated, would be to rename the subform "Developer Announcements / Community Questions" (or something slightly less clumsy, but with the specific idea that ordinary members can only post questions). So the moderation is simple - is it a valid question about the product? Yes / no. Of course even there there's wriggle room for some abuse ("why do you persist on releasing such atrocious libraries?"), but at least it would be super-clear upfront what sort of post is appropriate, and it should kick into touch discussion of censorship - it's simply a case that that part of the forum is designed purely as a Q&A only area.

Just looking again at Mike Greene's list of moderation problems at the bottom of p1 and applying them to this variation, things do get simpler. If Gunther thinks someone is a plant, alert a mod or moan in Sample Talk - if it's irony over the heads of everyone else, keep schtum perhaps. If it appears to be a genuine question with an unflattering answer, the developer can chose to answer or ignore it - though that raises the spectre of repeated questions, which I'd say just any obvious repetition, and its the onus on members to make sure that the question hasn't already been asked. If someone hears a click or thinks the legato transitions are too loud, then those aren't really questions, are they? Go and have a moan in Sample Talk rather than posting "do you plan on improving the legato transitions as heard in your demo".

But that's just one way of collating questions. Would be very interested some of the moderators views on King's idea, and how it could be implemented with the least stress.


EDIT - so for Mike Greene, perhaps the list of rules as applying to this variation could be:

1 - Please post only questions relating to the product in this thread.

2 - Please check that your question hasn't already been asked before posting - no repetitions, bumps or +1s please.

3 - You are very welcome to post personal opinion (good or bad) and broad discussion in the rest of the forum, but *not here* - please keep this area as an easy to follow announcement plus Q&A section. To this end, posts which are not valid questions are liable to be removed without warning. If you believe a post has been removed in error, please do contact one of the moderators.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 2, 2014)

KingIdiot @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> This is what the voting/star system is for, to help us decide who to invite to the BBQs. Who gets to throw pool parties, who has the bands together, and who's invited to the swingers party's. We figure it out together.



Oh so that's what that is, I never really noticed. All these years of participating and helping people and I only have 2 stars? I guess that's what happens when you espouse unpopular positions.

Oh well, I guess I don't get to eat lunch at the "cool kids" lunch table.


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## Daryl (Jan 2, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> KingIdiot @ Thu Jan 02 said:
> 
> 
> > This is what the voting/star system is for, to help us decide who to invite to the BBQs. Who gets to throw pool parties, who has the bands together, and who's invited to the swingers party's. We figure it out together.
> ...


So how the hell did I get any stars? There's more to this than meets the eye, Jay. :lol: 

D


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 2, 2014)

Daryl @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jan 02 said:
> 
> 
> > KingIdiot @ Thu Jan 02 said:
> ...



I guess they don't like me, Daryl (sniffle, sniffle) but you like me, right?


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## KingIdiot (Jan 2, 2014)

actually to be honest, I jsut always assumed it was and I was something popular. But I think it might be something else entirely now. I jsut thought I remember being able to vote/rate. Could be totally wrong on that front (but it could be more of an idea)

oh never mind, it's a "year star" so it's the amount of years you've been on the board.... and holy fuck I'm old.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 2, 2014)

KingIdiot @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> actually to be honest, I jsut always assumed it was and I was something popular. But I think it might be something else entirely now. I jsut thought I remember being able to vote/rate. Could be totally wrong on that front (but it could be more of an idea)
> 
> oh never mind, it's a "year star" so it's the amount of years you've been on the board.... and holy fuck I'm old.



I think the stars are years of active service, aren't they? Which, in a sorta Alanis Morrissette pseudo-ironic way, are depleted on mine cos I flounced off for a couple of weeks after the CinePerc Incident (CPI) and rejoined under my own name.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 2, 2014)

Ah that makes sense as for many years I was here as Ashermusic before I became EastWest Lurker.

Ok, I guess I can come out of the boys bathroom and go back into the lunch room now


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## Chriss Ons (Jan 2, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu 02 Jan said:


> All these years of participating and helping people and I only have 2 stars? I guess that's what happens when you espouse unpopular positions.



Jay, my guess is that you are entitled to 23 stars by now; but those simply won't fit in the left column. So you were awarded 7 moving snowflakes instead.

:wink:


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 2, 2014)

Josquin @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu 02 Jan said:
> 
> 
> > All these years of participating and helping people and I only have 2 stars? I guess that's what happens when you espouse unpopular positions.
> ...



Thank you, Josquin


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## madbulk (Jan 2, 2014)

I don't care about any of this... I'm only posting to see how many stars I've got.


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## Astronaut FX (Jan 2, 2014)

Just to play devil's advocate to the whole notion of a more heavily moderated CA forum...

Wasn't it essentially the "Spotlight..." thread regarding the KH library that helped to elevate things to this level of discussion? If so, that thread was not in the Commercial Announcements subforum, so how would stricter modification of the CA subforum been helpful?


Also as a general observation, I hate to see developers pulling up stakes and exiting. Yes, being part of this community has the potential of some discomfort from time to time, but I would think leaving would be like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Your products are still (if you're lucky) going to be discussed here. Without a presence, you'll have no opportunity to interject important facts and/or answer questions. If you're not so lucky, your products won't be discussed here, which I would think would be more tragic than the current situation.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 2, 2014)

Tone Deaf @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> Wasn't it essentially the "Spotlight..." thread regarding the KH library that helped to elevate things to this level of discussion? If so, that thread was not in the Commercial Announcements subforum, so how would stricter modification of the CA subforum been helpful?



Yes, a few issues have got conflated really. The Spotlight thread was more about how far someone's criticisms could be pushed in general (what is beyond the pale), while the idea behind this thread was more directly related to developer relations, and the issue of the Commercial Announcement subforum being more of a safe haven for developers who choose to only interact at that level and avoid the rough and tumble (indeed, all other things being equal, with threads like the Spotlight one). The debate has broadened to cover general stuff too and of course and you're right - any changes to CA wouldn't directly affect the kind of post that upset some in the Spotlight thread.


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## juliansader (Jan 2, 2014)

mikebarry @ Thu 02 Jan said:


> I think I've made me point clear, that is how I feel as a veteran of the board. Back in the day every other thread was full of tips tricks and helpful info. Tutorials were aplenty it was a place to share info. Now it's just a sort of the opposite. KvR generates more hits to our site. You guys decide how it should go. It doesn't affect my sales at all. Facebook generates more than 20 times the traffic than this site. Best to everyone.



I find re-peat's reviews very helpful and insightful. 

I would also prefer that the board be less concerned about sheltering developers, and more concerned about protecting users from developers' exaggerated claims and defective products. 

So... I would like to propose another solution: every developer that wants to advertise should send re-peat a free evaluation copy of the product! Perhaps I should start a poll on my fantastic solution?


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## Hannes_F (Jan 2, 2014)

Haha, fantastic


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 2, 2014)

*Two critical facts related to this topic and the concern of fleeing sample/VST developers (and one opinion) *

1. If a developer of sample libraries (or anything else) aimed at those who create music for movies/trailers/tv/games stomps his feet and threatens to take away his advertising dollars and leave this forum (e.g., "if you want our money these are the conditions we want - otherwise we will not advertise here"), guess what? As long as this forum remains actively used by a community of highly engaged buyers of his type of sample libraries, a savvy competitor will certainly replace those ad dollars. Maintaining a healthy and growing community must be the first priority for a forum such as this. The community of users -- who buy the things they sell -- is, pure and simple, what draws advertisers to open their wallets. And the truth is, it's dirt cheap for even the smallest dev to advertise here and reach an audience of sample users who spend A LOT of money on sample libraries. That departing developer will lose his presence and voice in the conversation about his company and libraries, the ability to maintain regular, direct interaction with customers and potential customers (okay, clearly not all devs prize this aspect), the opportunity to quickly and easily address concerns, pre-sale questions, identify and address customer service issues, clarify misconceptions, problems, test ideas and glean product improvement and new product ideas. The conversations will continue about his libraries, good or bad, without that developer being a part of those conversations. And over time, there may be a lot less conversations about his brand when discussing that category of libraries and it can end up falling out of sample buyers' consideration sets as new alternatives replace it and awareness of that brand's offerings starts to fade. 

2. That developer's posts repeatedly and very heavily implied, even to the point of an assertion, that he was engaging in a type of charitable act by advertising here (i.e., by making the case it doesn't send much traffic to his site and is consequently, insignificant to his business; as I noted before, this is a fatally flawed assertion; no business makes money because of large quantities of visitors, they make money because of the right kind of visitor who is a potential buyer). As most people without expertise in advertising or digital marketing can easily discern, a sample developer that serves this market is at VI-Control primarily for profit motive (there are other benefits as well, but, in the end, it all boils down to revenue and profit, the reason for the existence of a for-profit business), not altruism, not because he's just a super wonderful guy, but because he wants to make money from you and me and if he can't make enough money here to make it worthwhile for his business, he will certainly leave. And that is perfectly reasonable. 

OPINION: As can be plainly seen, I'm a strong advocate of the position that VI Control will benefit greatly from being a more civil place and not tolerating bullying or intimidation of other members or developers, which is, imo, the worst kind of censorship. However, I am certain that this forum will lose its worth to the community, the unwashed masses which buy sample libraries and VSTs in some developers opinions, if both positive and (civil, respectful of other members and developers) negative criticism is not fully permitted. Because if (civil) negative criticism is not permitted, the forum will lose immense value to community members and if the size of this community and community engagement declines significantly then I suspect so will all of those altruistic sample and VST developers spending ad money. Management of this kind of community must weigh the interests of the community along with those of developers and, in light of management's own objectives for the business. But unquestionably, the most significant weight of all must be given to the route best preserves and grows a healthy community, as everything else in this equation, and specifically ad revenue, is directly dependent on the health of this community. That is, without the community, only then will advertisers with those wonderful, altruistic tendencies suddenly go the way of the T. rex and will only be spoken of in the stories we tell our children about better days, long ago.


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## wesbender (Jan 2, 2014)

juliansader @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> So... I would like to propose another solution: every developer that wants to advertise should send re-peat a free evaluation copy of the product! Perhaps I should start a poll on my fantastic solution?



All joking aside, if Piet were to be the primary beta-tester on many of the 'big' releases, we'd probably get much better products upon release, and the clutter/bitching in commercial announcements would likely plummet.

So yeah, your solution actually is pretty fantastic.


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## Theseus (Jan 21, 2014)

Common weal 

What does the term common weal means for the Vi-Control community? 

A/ Making sure that developers are doing well selling their products? 

B/ Making sure that the VI members get the best information possible to make educated choices when it comes to spending money to acquire libraries that are supposed to help them make a living (or have lots of fun for hobbyists / semi-pro)? 

Of course, everybody would like it to be A AND B. But people have to come to the realization that the interests of both parties are antagonist. A developer will do whatever it takes to sale its product, and that might include not being overly transparent. A member will dig as much as he can not to get fooled and buy a product that doesn't serve him well. 

I believe that VI-Control has embraced the B conception of common weal for as long as I've known the forum (which is well prior to my official registration btw). The members of this community are foremost end-users (even though some of them sat on the fence and went even over it by becoming developers), and it speaks well of this community that it put forward the idea that whatever happens here should be beneficial to most. Ok, that's very utilitarian (in the sense that it maximizes utility), but in this context, it's only fair. 

Recently though, we've seen several attempts from several developers (and I'll name them, though probably not in an exhaustive manner: Cinesamples, Spitfire and now KH, through Kirk himself and also eDrummist that now embraces the idea as well) to plant the idea that commercial threads should be treated differently because they're paying for advertising (I would call that informercial). I've no moral judgement to pass on that idea (well, I do, but that's not the point here) but I believe it's a decision, were it to be taken, that would affect the whole idea behind common weal of this community, as we would have decided that developers interests are more important than that of the members and users. 

I've proposed a solution in another thread to solve this dilemma: it appears that the revenue generated by those infomercials isn't as high as one might think. Therefore, I think that we could swap that developer generated revenue with our user generated donations. Developers would of course be able to post whatever they want in those commercial threads (and to participate in any other threads they wish to engage in), but the conflict of interest for the community would be overcome. 

Ps: I'm not taking a shot at anybody involved in this thread, I respect everybody's opinion, I love puppies and I dress with rainbow printed tee-shirts. Oh, and pardon my poor English, I really am French Wink


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## blougui (Jan 21, 2014)

I didn't think I would participate in the debat for I'm new in the forum and mostly a hobbyist.
but as I read both this thread and witnessed some of the showdowns in the Commercial thread, jumped into my mind something in use in another forum, as niche as this one, though it's expending pretty rapidly nowadays : www.trictrac.net, a forum about boardgames.
The interesting thing is that the 2 communities have a lot in common - not all, but quite some points, like players becoming (small) dev, mods being active members of the community as a whole, internationally wise despite being a french langage site, the passion involved into each new launch, the impatience about that, the increasing demanding buyers, the increasing room the "what's new" thread occupies as more and more people there seem to fall into buying sprees more than playing the games.

Here's what it is :

Every time a thread derails, Creators of both the site (infos, news about the world of boardgaming) and the forum/mods cut the infamous posts and move them to a special place called "les douves"/ the moats.
Only the subscribed members can read the moats. Therefore, the most rude exchanges are not "polluting" the main thread and when you reach/read the moats, well, you know what you're after 0oD 
I understand it might be quite some work, an hasle as you have to make an "ducated" cut. But the mods/creators of the site really intend not to censorshipanything, avoid deleting posts at almost all costs, and even they sometimes participate in the heated debates. 
But they are proud of the free of speach - that lead once to judiciary action from a new dev who did'nt like the way the forum handled criticism toward their marketing policices. The forum won, but then asked members not to beat the dead horse and then that was it, as least from a member POV.
May be food for thought ?

- Erik


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 21, 2014)

Theseus @ Tue Jan 21 said:


> I've proposed a solution in another thread to solve this dilemma: it appears that the revenue generated by those infomercials isn't as high as one might think. Therefore, I think that we could swap that developer generated revenue with our user generated donations. Developers would of course be able to post whatever they want in those commercial threads (and to participate in any other threads they wish to engage in), but the conflict of interest for the community would be overcome.



I'm not sure that would, in fact, solve the problem. While financial contributions might be a part of this, I don't think its the greater part. I think those who have been rather upset / tempted to leave wouldn't feel much differently - its the lack of respect shown towards devs, as perceived by them, that is the most pressing issue I think,

With a couple of weeks break from the thread, I think King Idiot's idea above, possibly modified a little as per my post below, might still be the most productive way forward. I'm looking forward to some more comments on this idea.


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## Theseus (Jan 22, 2014)

As much as I would like to find that idea appealing, I'm afraid that if we settle for a flawed compromise, trying to accommodate both developers and members of this community, the very same issues will be raised in a timely manner.

In the end, maybe what we should do is simply stick to the way things are now. I mean, appart from those very few developers mentioned above, there really aren't that many problems. And if you read carefully the advertising page here on VI-C, you'll see that most of the problems arise from developers feeling entitled to control those threads "because they pay to advertise here". But Frederick wrote it very well, so let me quote it rather than paraphrase it: 

"We keep the advertising rates low to ensure that the forum remains *an exercise of free speech without undue censorship regarding products*. 

We believe that the atmosphere at V.I. Control is very conducive to sales. Perhaps part of that is a reflection of our policy that *allows members to speak their minds truthfully regarding products*. We believe that opinions are opinions and everyone is entitled to their own. There is *an established culture at V.I. and those advertisers who can learn to stay in step with the "living room comfortability" without making it a showroom floor will flourish.*"

It's not written anywhere that by paying, you're to expect a special treatment and have only rounds of applause. Quite the contrary.

Why would developers dictate a change to the way this community interacts when they truly are the only ones affected by it? I mean, everything else can be sorted in between members, with the help of moderators where there's blatant abuse of language or whatever.

So, I would say that if we can't ban totally advertising to have a commercial-free forum (oh, sweet dream...), I would simply like it to stay the way it is and see the developers that can't go along with those extremely simple rules go their own way. After all, it's not like there's only ONE way to announce a new product


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## blougui (Jan 22, 2014)

I drew a parallele between trictrac.net and VI C ; I should add that trictrac receive paiements from dev for ads on the pages. And now dev/creators can post commercial announcements on the "news" page - so apart from the forum, that is, cause there 2 different things : the "news" site and the forum. Note that the comments on the news site are opened to members, so you can stab or lickass as you like 

And it stil works, 13 years later, with just a tiny bit of censorship from the mods.


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 22, 2014)

Just to be clear, I presented a different idea in KHS' thread on how I think Commercial Announcements should be treated. I proposed that they don't necessarily become heavily moderated, but they instead just become, more or less, press releases (which, by the way, is not an infommercial). But with rules around them. Basic information on new releases (sample libraries, VSTs, hardware, etc.). Then, any discussion, including a discussion with a developer, would take place in say, the Samples forum. A developer could then make a choice wether or not to partake in that discussion or even start the discussion (start a new thread). A key difference is that the developer would NOT feel that he was obligated to stay in a thread, that was created by someone else, that became filled with hostile, combative members who had become abusive towards him. Right now, when a developer starts a Community Announcement thread, because it represents his company, he feels responsibility for that thread, to stay actively involved and, to an extent, a sense of ownership. If threads were NOT in the Community Announcement section it would leave developers with the option to create threads, participate in threads sample users have created or not participate, without the sense that they were obligated to participate that they currently feel. And let's face it, it is when a Commercial Announcement thread becomes filled with wildly combative members of the community going unchecked, and even more, when there are several members engaging in this behavior, it becomes a lot to deal with -- it can be exasperating. The noble idea put forth that it's about free speech is misleading, even disingenuous. Free speech doesn't include assault, death threats, slander and all sorts of problematic speech. If you were to go back into the three KHS threads and witness people who made criticisms, even very harsh criticism, like feck's post, but made it without attacking devs or insulting other forum members and being generally combative and inflammatory, there wouldn't be a problem and I bet this community would be much healthier. It comes down to this, imo, not many reasonable human beings want to deal with a hostile and combative environment where people are being jerks to them and each other, so as long as VI Control permits that, I think the solution is to let the ownership of threads largely be non-developers. Some devs will participate to various degrees, others will not. 

But some of these posts in this thread people are making are deifying sample buyers, and sample buyers who are plain abusive to other forum members and devs and demonizing sample developers. I don't think that's fair and I also think that it reflects the behavior that can make VI Control very hostile to sample devs at times. I believe that the problems that are arising in this community are due to trolling and combative behavior going unchecked. They're not due to sample developers being manipulators as some are rationalizing, at least not what I saw. The problem, as I see it, is that some very hostile, aggressive and combative members of this community are posting a lot and frankly, most people, not just developers don't want to constantly be treated like someone's punching bag. Other forums solve this by having moderators nudge such individuals into line, which I think would work, but VI Control doesn't want to do that -- well, in truth, it already does that in some places, but not evenhandedly. It also uses developers to moderate, which, according to most of the group logic laid out here and in the KHS thread, would create a conflict.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 22, 2014)

EDrummist-You seem so unhappy here, what with the unfairness and all. Why not quit the field and go somewhere where you have more control over your surroundings and things are moderated more in line with your expectations?

Your presentation isn't "this is a good place but I'd like it to be better", or at least that's not how I've experienced it. What I've seen is more along the lines of "this place is hostile and developer unfriendly and it should be changed". Well, okay....but so far, that doesn't look all that likely, so....?


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## TheUnfinished (Jan 22, 2014)

As a developer myself, as well as an average Joe composer, I would much prefer comments to be allowed in the commercial thread, because then I'll actually see them.

Chasing round the site, which often has a lot of thread traffic, looking for new threads about my stuff doesn't appeal to me.

It's easy to keep a watch on the thread I start myself. If someone's bad mouthing or praising me, I can see it there and address it as I see fit.

Whilst the Piet/KH thing has been an 'interesting' point in VI Control's history, I don't think there's any need to overreact to it, or indeed accidentally imagine that the only arsey behaviour on this forum is confined to commercial announcements.

I still think that the forum is generally well behaved and is looking a little worse for wear because some people are enjoying dwelling on the falre ups a little too much. Personally, I find the over-reaction to posts like Piet's to be far more damaging and derailing to those threads than the initial 'vibrant' comments. They're easily ignored if you want to.

Less wringing of hands, more just bloody well get on with life.


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 22, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 22 said:


> EDrummist-You seem so unhappy here, what with the unfairness and all. Why not quit the field and go somewhere where you have more control over your surroundings and things are moderated more in line with your expectations?
> 
> Your presentation isn't "this is a good place but I'd like it to be better", or at least that's not how I've experienced it. What I've seen is more along the lines of "this place is hostile and developer unfriendly and it should be changed". Well, okay....but so far, that doesn't look all that likely, so....?



My presentation is my being honest and trying my best. Let me be clear, I think 95 percent of the people in this community are friendly, NOT jerks. However, the problem is that 5 percent group are a lot more prolific and tend to dominate a thread. I'm just trying to present a voice. My voice. My experiences. You are free to agree or disagree. 99 percent of the reason I am at VI Control is as a hobbyist musician. I'm a former working musician who is now just a hobbyist who has been using DAWs and computer-based (as I used to use hardware) sample libraries since the 90s. It's not my career, nor is my career giving sample developers advice. 

As I told you in PMs a while ago, the devs I've advised are ones whose libraries and VSTs I use regularly and enjoy and I've helped most of them, more than two dozen over the years, refusing to take compensation. Why? Because they're just one or two person businesses, don't make much money and spending a little free time to help them is gratifying to me -- plus, I like that I can have input into the libraries. That said, a few years ago, after my family expanded, I decided I don't have time to continue doing that and two developers wanted to keep working with me and paid for my services. What I have done for them is help decide on new libraries (I had the idea for Kirk's Pop/Rock Strings and Easy String Arranger -- both reflect users like me, btw, so I loved being part of seeing products I wanted come to market), pricing libraries, naming libraries, writing copy, develop social media ideas, help them plan out sales and group buys and be a sounding board for these dev's ideas and in their planning. Until three or four years ago, I avoided posted in their threads, because I didn't want to be seen as representing them. I want to be free to express my opinions without being seen as a representative. I mean, during Kirk's Group Buy, I commented in a shoot out thread with three different orchestral libraries, none of them KHS, and was so impressed by one of them, Spitfire, that I commented that I thought it was easily the best sounding of the bunch. Now, I bet some people who connect me with KHS saw that and thought, "That's weird. Why is he praising Spitfire?" I want to be free to keep speaking my honest opinion here, not having to represent a dev. But those two KHS threads gave me a perspective of what some devs are dealing with and I thought it was an insight that could be valuable. That's why I presented it here. Because I think that sharing that perspective can help make the community better (ftr, I am not elevating my perspective over anyone else's, I'm just saying that I think sharing what I've learned is my way of trying to add something to the community's collective knowledge base). You might disagree with me, that's fine. But my recent experiences gave me a perspective that I didn't have prior to those experiences and, it actually changed my opinion from what I previously thought would work best and as member of this community, I want to try my best to offer what I can, what I know and have learned, to help the community.


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## Synesthesia (Jan 22, 2014)

posted here also as Theseus has crossposted in both threads:



Theseus @ Tue Jan 21 said:


> Recently though, we've seen several attempts from several developers (and I'll name them, though probably not in an exhaustive manner: Cinesamples, Spitfire and now KH, through Kirk himself and also eDrummist that now embraces the idea as well) to plant the idea that commercial threads should be treated differently because they're paying for advertising (I would call that informercial). I've no moral judgement to pass on that idea (well, I do, but that's not the point here) but I believe it's a decision, were it to be taken, that would affect the whole idea behind common weal of this community, as we would have decided that developers interests are more important than that of the members and users.



Hi Theseus,

This is simply not true, and Frederick will be able to confirm if you ask him, that no-one from Spitfire has ever made any such suggestion.

I only ever have a problem when I believe someone is saying things that are blatantly untrue or wrong in order to put people off our products.

We put an enormous amount of hard work into our libraries and they are very very expensive to record. Its obviously in my interest to ensure that any incorrect information is corrected. 

Of course everyone has a subjective opinion, and occasionally its hard to read that someone doesn't like something you've sweated over, and when that opinion is delivered rudely or aggressively it can be hard to read, and sometimes you want to take a time out for your mental health.

However we are totally transparent about our products, you can see who played, where the recordings take place, I do simple real time played walkthroughs, there's no trickery or obfuscation going on.

Also we don't 'post process' any of the samples - with the sole exception of Noise Reduction - unless we are doing it for a specific effect, such as pads, drones etc, or where you are buying the very clearly produced work of a specific artist, as in the HZ libraries.

We don't add fake reverbs to make things sound like they were recorded somewhere they weren't, we don't fudge the legato transitions with reverb. We work insanely hard to make all this stuff work honestly and sounding as good as humanly possible.

hope that clears up any misconception about us with regard to the moderation of this board.

For the record, I am for the members being able to post freely in the Commercial Announcements section.

All the best,

Paul


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## Theseus (Jan 22, 2014)

Paul, you're absolutely right and I should have been more precise and not associate you directly with Cinesamples and KH who both stated clearly that they want threads to be only commercials and deprive the users from their ability to comment any way they want.

You didn't say that. You just reacted in a very emotional manner (directly connected to the level of passion you obviously put into your products) in other threads that were actually not even in the commercial section (ie. the Mural thread in Sample Talk). But you said publicly that you were on the edge of leaving the community and asking Frederick to delete your account because of the negativity of some comments (you could easily replace "negativity" with "lies" if you wish, but I, for instance, am not able, not sitting behind every user's computer, to state whether a problem is real or not, and whether it resorts to devs responsibility or the end-user). And there are some users (who ? names ? ) that obviously interpreted that as some kind of emotional blackmailing: "be nice or I quit". And I believe devs shouldn't confine members of this community into self-censorship. I understand this isn't probably not what you implied, but you need to understand that this is how it was understood to a certain extent.

So I stand corrected! And btw, I'm a proud user of Spitfire and think the libraries you produce are outstanding, with great support and updates. Voila.


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## markwind (Jan 22, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Wed Jan 22 said:


> As a developer myself, as well as an average Joe composer, I would much prefer comments to be allowed in the commercial thread, because then I'll actually see them.
> 
> Chasing round the site, which often has a lot of thread traffic, looking for new threads about my stuff doesn't appeal to me.
> 
> ...



+1 
- if you read between the lines this post promotes proper guidelines that would benefit the subforum without restricting it as to render the subforum dead (through lack of interaction by making it announcement only).


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## NYC Composer (Jan 22, 2014)

It's taken me a long time, but I've finally figured out exactly what this forum needs:

::::drumroll:::::

Women. Lots more women.

The advantanges would be myriad. More courtliness. More politesse. More distraction.

Women are generally better at cooperative enterprises as well. They're so scarce around here that they'd be treated fairly reverently- like an exotic species. Like- unicorns.

Of course, guys would be competing to show off their huge, large...umm...sample libraries...but that sort of thing can be reined in.

Hmm. Maybe I'll start a poll- the "who thinks this forum needs more females" poll. 
The debate alone would be worth the price of admission.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 22, 2014)

Larry, +1000 (hi Gunther!)


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## re-peat (Jan 22, 2014)

I have a rather attractive female side to my personality. And girlfriends who sucked my nipples with their eyes closed have all told me they've experienced strange, not entirely disagreeable lesbiotic sensations during the act.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 22, 2014)

Oh the horror, the image burns in my mind!


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## NYC Composer (Jan 22, 2014)

I (Froggy) am goin' a courtin'.


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## rayinstirling (Jan 22, 2014)

Are we ever going to talk facts here instead of opinion.

As Steve Wright in the Afternoon would say “today's factoids are”

v.i.control has over 8000 members – participants so far on this poll 154 and I'm not about to add mine although I do thank Guy for giving me a place to write the rest of my factoids.

Has any thread in any forum been derailed by one negative post (at whatever level of rudeness the reader may think applies)? Factoid.... NO
The derailment is caused by that opinion being attacked usually not by the OP but by some upstanding citizen defending the OP's honour. If the negative post was simply ignored it would quickly disappear into yesterday's news which brings me to the next factoid. 

Commercial Announcements along with every other forum thread need to be on the first page of New Posts to have any impact on the membership who like me dip in and out checking mainly, that board. All replies are better than no replies whatever the opinion in them as no activity quickly demotes the discussion into, yesterday's news.

You can't stop Dev's bumping their thread. Why wouldn't they? How easy is it they get someone else to do it for them? It's business, the same as getting the company name on the first page of google with an entry even slightly related to the product range. You can't have it both ways, there are commercial threads or there aren't, end of!

Factoid........never have I purchased a library or plugin on the back of reading a commercial announcement. I'm far more likely to buy following a review or demo presented by a user of whom I have the utmost respect regardless of their writing manner  
I'm well aware I may not have the skill to squeeze such excellent music from these products but that won't stop me trying.

Final factoid...........I like wearing women's clothes.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 22, 2014)

Prove it!


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## rayinstirling (Jan 22, 2014)

I may just be daft enough to find and post a real photo


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## germancomponist (Jan 22, 2014)

Now these last posts here are exactly my matter. 

Let's have fun sometimes!!!

o-[][]-o 
o=<


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 22, 2014)

I did it once, for a student film in the 80s. The tights were such a pain!!! And don't get me started on the heels...


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## rayinstirling (Jan 22, 2014)

1983 for me Ned,
Blond wig.................the lot and I do have a pic somewhere.


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## TheUnfinished (Jan 22, 2014)

I once walked down the main shopping street in my home town dressed as a woman (as did my best mate). We were carrying a pretend dead body wrapped in a bin liner.

We went to a bar, played some pool and left the bin bag body out for the dustmen (refuse collectors) to find the following morning.

All in the name of comedy... And, yes, there is photographic evidence.


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## Ganvai (Jan 22, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ 22nd January 2014 said:


> All in the name of comedy... And, yes, there is photographic evidence.



... but still not linked in this forum? WHY? :mrgreen:


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## SirKen (Jan 22, 2014)

Since I cannot vote without 10 posts, I am tempted to just spam somewhere so that I could come here and press 'No'. 

... In case some of the mods are reading this, please add a +1 on the no column 

EDIT - Is cross-dressing required to be able to join here? Was it part of the registration rules because I didn't see it being listed there? I wouldn't want to be banned from here. If mods can give me a bit of time, I can head to the nearest shopping mall to fulfill the requirements (I am afraid that I am too big for my girlfriend's clothes).


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## NYC Composer (Jan 22, 2014)

(not to deride anyone's personal preferences, but this was NOT what I had in mind when I opined that we need more wimmens here)


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## TheUnfinished (Jan 22, 2014)

Beggars can't be choosers.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 22, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Wed Jan 22 said:


> Beggars can't be choosers.



Ok, since I can't choose, I'm begging everyone not to post their pics. Attractive though they may be, I fear my brain will be seared with indelible images and forever scarred...


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## Casiquire (Jan 23, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Wed 22 Jan said:


> Has any thread in any forum been derailed by one negative post (at whatever level of rudeness the reader may think applies)? Factoid.... NO
> The derailment is caused by that opinion being attacked usually not by the OP but by some upstanding citizen defending the OP's honour. If the negative post was simply ignored it would quickly disappear into yesterday's news which brings me to the next factoid.



I think we disagree on the point at which derailment occurs, and disagreement implies that it's an opinion, not a fact.



> Final factoid...........I like wearing women's clothes.



And I'd bet you look stunning! :mrgreen:


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