# Why JW is so Fucking good !!!



## ed buller (Jul 3, 2019)

This guy has done some really good videos. The take away is the complexity. Almost every bar is in a different key or scale. There is lot's of polychords and chords with odd notes in the bass. lot's of augmented and diminished harmony. Loads of different scales...sometimes on top of each other.

all of them here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9JvlTjF4bt0av206TGMcHg/videos


enjoy


best

ed


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## Dan Drebing (Jul 3, 2019)

I haven't watched the video so maybe the guy says this, but I think it's extremely well controlled complexity. A couple clear musical ideas warped more and more from their very legible first statement (like in "The Dance of the Witches" from Witches of Eastwick, although that doesn't get very "out there").

I like to do an exercise at the piano where I start with a boringly simple idea or phrase and just repeat it over and over going crazier and crazier with harmony until it's nearly unrecognizable. At a certain point of bending and warping it actually start to sound a teeny bit like Williams.

Thanks for sharing the vid.


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## Kent (Jul 3, 2019)

Yes, complexity alone does nothing. Where Williams's true strength is is his absolute control of that complexity.


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## Chris Wagner (Jul 3, 2019)

Wow! I didn't know this great Youtube channel. Thanks for posting.


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## AllanH (Jul 5, 2019)

Thanks to @ed buller for that youtube resources. I had not found his channel. JW really is incredibly complex in an organized way; it's quite impressive when it's presented like this.


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## Mike Fox (Jul 5, 2019)

kmaster said:


> Yes, complexity alone does nothing. Where Williams's true strength is is his absolute control of that complexity.


This.


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## re-peat (Jul 5, 2019)

I don’t agree. Complexity is _by definition_ controlled and organized. It’s precisely the fact that it is highly organized and controlled which distinguishes complexity from mere chaos.

I also don’t agree, and quite strongly, that complexity is what sets Williams apart from most everyone else. For starters, complexity isn’t a parameter that has intrinsic musical value. Music can be extremely complex and still be without much musical interest or appeal. Plenty of examples of that, I should think. Besides, Williams’ music isn’t really more complex than that of, say, Korngold or Waxman, if we limit the comparison to film composers. And if we look at the classical canon, then it becomes even quite ridiculous to attempt any such comparison. From the 15th century onwards, there has been music which is infinitely more complex than Williams’ most sophisticated pieces. Or, in a whole other domain: an inspired Bill Evans piano solo or many a Thelonious Monk composition — to name just two jazz musicians (where several dozens deserve naming) — are often much more complex, both rhythmically and harmonically, than most of Williams' music.

Williams’ unique strength, for me anyway, lies entirely but exclusively in the quality of his ideas. Every other aspect of his music can be quite easily copied or imitated. Convincingly so. As many have proven. Even musicians of moderate ability can do it.
The one element which no one has ever been able to approach though, let alone equal (and no one ever will), is the quality of mid-season Williams musical invention. It’s also the one element that you can’t make YouTube videos about, nor read books or articles about, because it’s a beauty than can’t be captured in anything else but itself.

_


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## ed buller (Jul 5, 2019)

Let me clarify. By complexity I mean rather than rely on one disciple or approach, he uses many. This is in stark contrast to a lot of blockbuster action music of today.( i agree the period you mention is just as complex as Williams, And complexity alone counts for nothing !) But I wanted to show just how complex it is compared to today. It's a sound I just don't here in Hollywood anymore . A feast of ideas and techniques that function as a whole. I'm just drawn to the fact he makes it sound like one idea rather than a kaleidoscope of many. And quite often there's a tune too. It isn't unique. Many composers have managed it although I think JW is amongst a few that manage to cram in so many approaches successfully into one cue ! And again we agree THAT is his genius, his ideas are memorable in a unique way. His multi-disciple approach in cues like this Doesn't distract from the quality of his themes and motifs And that is his legacy and no one comes close.....

Best

Ed


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## visiblenoise (Jul 6, 2019)

Eh, I'm happy to admit that I find it complex enough to call it "complex." Thanks for sharing! Hoping I pick some of this up through osmosis.


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## gussunkri (Jul 6, 2019)

Do you guys consider JW good for a film composer or just good? I'm currently studying Shostakovich, Stravinsky and Prokofiev. Is there something to be gained from studying JW, rather than these composers? (I have no interest in media composition, I just write music for its own sake.)


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## klawire (Jul 6, 2019)

Thanks for sharing this! The analysis was very interesting. it's great to find channels like this.


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## purple (Jul 6, 2019)

gussunkri said:


> Do you guys consider JW good for a film composer or just good? I'm currently studying Shostakovich, Stravinsky and Prokofiev. Is there something to be gained from studying JW, rather than these composers? (I have no interest in media composition, I just write music for its own sake.)


I don't know. There could be value for you if you are interested in programmatic, story-driven music. Tone poems and opera and such from the likes of people like wagner and strauss. The symphonic tradition of film music was born out of that late-romantic programmatic stuff and takes several elements from those styles and evolves them to more effectively tell stories for film.


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## Consona (Jul 6, 2019)

re-peat said:


> I don’t agree. Complexity is _by definition_ controlled and organized. It’s precisely the fact that it is highly organized and controlled which distinguishes complexity from mere chaos.


By what definition is complexity something ontrolled and organized? Chaos can be complex as well as some elaborate system. (If there's anything like "chaos" at all.)



re-peat said:


> I also don’t agree, and quite strongly, that complexity is what sets Williams apart from most everyone else.


What IMO separates Williams from others is, also, not only, _his kind_ of complexity. He's for sure not the only composer who can control very complex orchestral music, but when I'm listening to his film cues, there's noone else who puts pieces together like him. His style is very peculiar to my ears. His pieces are so nimble, agile, full of twists and turns, _complex_, yet coherently holding together and fluent (even though sometimes demanding on your attention to decode the flow, but it is there). That's to me the main difference between him and the others.

Plus of course his ideas, which are just brilliant.



re-peat said:


> Williams’ unique strength, for me anyway, lies entirely but exclusively in the quality of his ideas. Every other aspect of his music can be quite easily copied or imitated. Convincingly so. As many have proven. Even musicians of moderate ability can do it.


Show me some examples, please.
Rogue One and Solo were two Star Wars films not scored by Williams and you can hear it no problem that the music was not his. Even though they tried to sound starwars-y. No matter how good musical idea, those composers just couldn't put together Williams' kind of complexity and vividity in the compositions. Far from convincingly imitating him.



gussunkri said:


> Do you guys consider JW good for a film composer or just good? I'm currently studying Shostakovich, Stravinsky and Prokofiev. Is there something to be gained from studying JW, rather than these composers? (I have no interest in media composition, I just write music for its own sake.)


Just good. His music is basically orchestral concert music with inner dramatic development, it's like a good symphony, not just some musical backdrop for a movie.

Here you can compare Shostakovich with Williams...


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## ed buller (Jul 6, 2019)

gussunkri said:


> Do you guys consider JW good for a film composer or just good? I'm currently studying Shostakovich, Stravinsky and Prokofiev. Is there something to be gained from studying JW, rather than these composers? (I have no interest in media composition, I just write music for its own sake.)



He's a great Film Composer. So the Narrative and direction are dictated by another source. Unlike opera where the story IS in the hands of the composer, Film is slave to a timecode and hit points. So with that said his music should be judged accordingly. 

As a concert composer he has never really impressed me. I love his film music too much. From the early seventies to the late eighties he was fantastic. He declined for me ever since. Great moments but not the same ...for me. 

Should you study others first ?

Yes if you are studying the music....as music................no if you are studying film music composition. Then you should study the film scores to picture. 

The music Williams writes ( in his best period ) came from lot's of sources. His genius ( like many before him ) as to adapt and mix. Just like Stravinsky did from Rimsky-Korsakov and Debussy , Ravel and Dukas...Williams is the same. Perhaps the best example of this is his score to Close encounters. Where he manages to make sections sound like Legeti meets Ravel......He has a smorgasbord of techniques that he has mastered. from Jazz to twelve tone....hence my remarks about his complexity but at it's heart ,his talent is a great tune !......

So study as much as you can. Get Persichetti as well...Be familiar with distinct Twentieth century techniques as well as more traditional ones. There is a lot of Stravinsky in there but also Wagner and Berlioz. Liszt and Walton.........he is very very knowledgeable.............oh and don't forget the jazz either !.....he was Henry Mancini's pianist for years...that had an effect too !


All the best

ed


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## ProfoundSilence (Jul 6, 2019)

study tchai/shost/proko/ect, because that's why JW sounds the way he does.

Plus you'll hear exactly where his inspiration comes from.



even tiny sections like that are just hiding in all of the greats.

Williams draws from a much better pool of inspiration than we grew up with, so why drink the backwash of today's composers in place of what inspired them? Not saying todays composers aren't worth listening to, but there is much to be learned from those who didn't grow up with a DAW - and when you draw from modern sources it often ends up being an aimless derivative of a derivative sometimes losing the key element of the original inspiration that made it work and made it memorable.

composers like Mahler, Shostakovich specifically will never stop plucking something internally with me - because they lead quite rough existances - despite fame. Mahler was a jew who grew up in an anti semetic germany(the same germany who would later ban his works from being performed in their country, and luckily he died in his 50s rather than living to his 80s to see the holocaust). Shostakovich was one double meaning away from stalin putting a bullet in his head. These were truly tortured individuals, who had the raw emotion for inspiration - that could genuinely orchestrate exactly the agony and chaos they felt, and the silver lining of joy they managed to find in their lives.



action, good guys, bad guys, conflict, bittersweet - everything movies need is portrayed in this music, but it's not because it fits the pictures on the screen - it's because the composer himself felt these things.

*gets off soap box*

part of what makes Williams sound authentic, my guess, is that he truly loves this music - but what makes his work great is not that it's complex... what makes him great is his almost religious adherence to motivic development, that makes his pieces hold together regardless of where he takes it - or how he dresses up the motive.


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## mikeh-375 (Jul 6, 2019)

Excellent @ed buller and @ProfoundSilence, spot on imv.(and annoying coz I can't really add to it...

The reason he is so good is because he knows his onions. I'd say that a lot of folk can (surprisingly) get to his technical level if they have the wits.....just not via youtube and not in a few months. (btw,high technical competence can be self taught with a little guidance here and there too).
Musically speaking, he is so good in part because of his compositional technical level, obvious I know, but his years of study allowed him to find his musical self and his absorption of practices from masters allows him to put his own spin on those 12 notes we all fiddle with.
You want what he has? then commit to it, it ain't on the internet, it's within you, go find it....oh and stop procrastinating like I am here..


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## ed buller (Jul 7, 2019)

Yes the second movement of the 10th ( Shostakovich) is a fantastic "how to" if your after a driving action sound . Pity the actual score is sooo expensive !




best

ed


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 8, 2019)

Because he doesn’t spend his time shopping for libraries, sorting rogue Vienna pro connections, creating Eye of Sauron templates, arguing over legato transitions and engaging in Mac vs PC debates. 

Just a piano and manuscript, a lifetime of knowledge and a natural musical talent and ear that eclipses the skills of us lesser mortals. Probably.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jul 8, 2019)

Alex Fraser said:


> Because he doesn’t spend his time shopping for libraries, sorting rogue Vienna pro connections, creating Eye of Sauron templates, arguing over legato transitions and engaging in Mac vs PC debates.
> 
> Just a piano and manuscript, a lifetime of knowledge and a natural musical talent and ear that eclipses the skills of us lesser mortals. Probably.



he's long past the point of proving himself worth the funds to just hire an orchestra + I don't know if the directors even care if they know what it'll sound like before they spend money on it. 

I mean Williams can literally carry bad acting


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 8, 2019)

ProfoundSilence said:


> he's long past the point of proving himself worth the funds to just hire an orchestra + I don't know if the directors even care if they know what it'll sound like before they spend money on it.


Yep - I love this:

_“When we were editing, we had a very talented music editor, Joe Bonn, who cut a temp score out of John’s previous scores and we basically temped using John Williams music. And then basically we gave that temp score to John and that was our spotting session. You know, a spotting session is usually when you sit down with the composer and talk through what you want. I didn’t do that with John, just gave him our temp score and said this is generally the shape. And then John took that and sometimes he went with it, sometimes he deviated from it but he just did his thing; and the first time I heard any of the music John had written was when we were on the scoring stage.”_

Rian Johnson on scoring The Last Jedi.


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