# Orchestration courses?



## Audun Jemtland (Sep 9, 2016)

Hey, do you all know of any orchestration courses? other than Scott Smalley's.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Sep 9, 2016)

@NoamL


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## Blackster (Sep 9, 2016)

At "Music Interval Theory" we also teach orchestration as part of the course as you go through it. Though, if you want to get only into orchestration, our course might not be the best solution to you as we focus more on composition But still worth a look!


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## Leon Willett (Sep 9, 2016)

I teach orchestration on Skype! PM me for details


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## FredericBernard (Sep 20, 2016)

I think there should be plenty of courses, but imo this isn't the best way to learn orchestration, at least I was told this of many people I spoke to, who applied courses. Working on your own or one-on-one with an experienced composer/orchestrator should be way better option. 

Anyway if you would like to tacle orchestration on your own reg. would like to have a deeper insight I'd propose the following route:

1. Get to know the basics
learn all the basic ranges, basic technics, basic orchestra setups etc.
This could be best done via a book like the Midi Orchestration book by Paul Gilreath, or Adlers Book. There should be even some free public domain lecture at google books.

2. Score Study and Listening
Try to collect some printed conductor scores (especially film music, late romantic and expressionism can be also very near to film music, like Gustav Holst - The Planets). Sit down, turn on the music and while listening try to sight read the score. I can tell you that I've spend thousands of hours in score study, and every minute was worth it. You will learn so many different stuff (even after years into it) especially if you do this extensively on a regular basis!

3. By-Ear transcribing
This is simply a fantastic way to internalize the things you have learned before. The more acurate you are with your transcription the more you'll learn. Best way to do this is by doing a mockup as well as a score in Sibelius/Finale.
Fun fact: a lot of great musicians learned a big bunch of their technic from by-ear playing/transcribing, some like Art Tatum to name one nearly exclusively.


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## ed buller (Sep 20, 2016)

Leon Willett said:


> I teach orchestration on Skype! PM me for details



I can heartily recommend Leon. He taught me a lot !

e


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Sep 20, 2016)

I did the Berklee ones which covered a lot of ground and had a lot to do with working in DAWs rather than on scores which I liked but overall I didn't really learn much. I learned a lot more when I read the Adler. I also did a course at my university which used the Adler so there I didn't learn very much either. I suggest reading the Adler and Rimsky-Korsakov and then just looking at scores.


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## NoamL (Sep 20, 2016)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> @NoamL



Haha!

For some reason the forum didn't notify me that you mentioned me.

I agree 100% with @FredericBernard . You need to start with some academic study - a good introductory text is Kent Kennan's _*Principles of Orchestration*_ - so that you know the ranges and the basic idioms of each instrument. You don't need to dive into the details and know everything, just the basic principles. After that, the best method is score study. Just pick music you love and find the scores and listen along. I have a bunch of Hal Leonard editions of John Williams scores and a big folder of downloaded IMSLP Prokofiev scores. Also, if you try to create mockups from scores by great orchestrators (such as for instance Conrad Pope's work on Williams' later scores) you will discover that every detail that gets notated has a reason to exist. 

Even better than creating mockups is to either join a community orchestra in your spare time or get an orchestra to read your scores. Very educational (and humbling) experience.


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## Norman (Jan 23, 2017)

Audun Jemtland said:


> Hey, do you all know of any orchestration courses? other than Scott Smalley's.



Hi, I teach orchestration classes via Skype. I'm a professional orchestrator for Michael Giacchino, and written 8 books.. so PM me for details.

Thanks-Norman


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## Daisser (Feb 14, 2017)

I take lessons from Norman on orchestration and he is truly an amazing resource, an excellent teacher, and an overall nice person! 

Here is some insight for those looking at lessons or study.

Many of us here are hobbyists or aspiring musicans that pretty much live in the world of VI. We started out playing an instrument, like a piano or guitar (maybe with a teacher) and then one day said we wanted more. We took some video courses, read some books, listened to some incredible VI demos and found these forums. We grew greatly in our ability and received excellent feedback from the VI boards.

Then, it seems to me, many of us hit a wall. It's not at the same spot but it made us sit back and say 'How do I go from what I have to what Blakus or Verta would create'. You know it's somewhere between the orchestration, CC values, VI instruments, reverb, home room acoustics, devine inspiration, etc because you read about that! But, where is my problem, me specifically!

That's where a teacher coms on, esp someone like Norman. He has the academic knowledge, internal balance understanding (a lot of people have issues here) and decades of experience actually doing this in LA - and he can teach.

If any of this sounds like your story, do yourself a favor and set aside a few bucks from your VI budget and get a teacher!


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## JohnG (Feb 14, 2017)

lots of good advice here already.

Everyone needs a reference book. For that, I recommend Adler (including the MP3s or CDs -- must have). You can learn a lot from that alone if what you're talking about is regular orchestration (though the book does go through the 20th century).

For some people, self study works. @FredericBernard has some good suggestions in that vein. For the majority, however, it's more motivating to have deadline and a program that is set by a teacher or some kind of formal course.

For many, @Daisser is right to recommend working with an individual teacher to diagnose and steer you toward what you personally need to focus on first.

The Kennan book is ok but its ranges recommended are far too conservative. They look like ranges for a college orchestra or a municipal organization, definitely not studio musicians.

Good luck! 

John


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## agarner32 (Feb 14, 2017)

JohnG said:


> For the majority, however, it's more motivating to have deadline and a program that is set by a teacher or some kind of formal course.


I completely agree. There are those who can make self-study work, but it can really expedite the process with a good teacher or formal program. Nothing new here, this has been hotly debated many times over.

+1 for the Adler.


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## Michael Antrum (Feb 15, 2017)

I have been looking at doing something similar myself. I also saw this one:

http://thinkspaceeducation.com/co/

Has anyone done this course ?


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## agarner32 (Feb 15, 2017)

I'm doing the MFA in in composition and orchestration (PCO). I've already have a graduate degree in music, but it's not in composition so I decided to do this one. They have several courses to choose from and not all are actual degrees.

I've had a good experience so far and have learned a lot. Feel free to ask any detailed questions you'd like and I'll try my best to answer them. I'm a little over half way through. There is at least one other person I know who is also in one of the graduate degrees and he's on this forum all the time.


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## Mishabou (Feb 16, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> I have been looking at doing something similar myself. I also saw this one:
> 
> http://thinkspaceeducation.com/co/
> 
> Has anyone done this course ?



I bought one course to test the water and have been pretty disappointed. One of the big selling point was the availability of the teacher to answer questions. I posted a few of them and still waiting for answers 2 months later.


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## Michael Antrum (Feb 16, 2017)

Anhtu said:


> I bought one course to test the water and have been pretty disappointed. One of the big selling point was the availability of the teacher to answer questions. I posted a few of them and still waiting for answers 2 months later.



That's interesting and potentially quite disappointing. Did you purchase a Gold course which is supposed to include teacher feedback or just the standard course ?


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## FredericBernard (Feb 16, 2017)

Anhtu said:


> One of the big selling point was the availability of the teacher to answer questions. I posted a few of them and still waiting for answers 2 months later.



Too bad. What were these questions about? Feel free to post them here, maybe we can help out.


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## Norman (Mar 18, 2017)

Hi all,

Here is a link to my website for anyone interested in learning more about orchestration and composition.

I offer one on one Skype classes with a detailed report after every lesson.

Yes, you can self study, but IMHO there is no replacement for a good, dedicated teacher...it sure helped me out!


www.musicnewapproach.com

*https://ludwinmusic.acuityscheduling.com/*


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## robgb (Mar 18, 2017)

I believe it's possible to learn to orchestrate the way many of us learned guitar, keyboard, composition, etc. Listen, absorb, analyze, and do. Mostly do. You don't have to read music. You don't have to take formal lessons. These things may make it easier for you or they may not, depending on how YOU best learn. Someone else's experience is someone else's experience, not yours.

People told me I couldn't write books without a solid foundation of literature and writing classes. Nonsense. I've always hated formal teaching, so I read and analyzed and wrote, wrote, wrote. Eventually I sold a book. At last count I've published several with major publishing companies. I'm currently writing my twentieth (?). I say this not to boast but to serve as an example that the "conventional wisdom" is not always right.

Most people take the conventional path because they believe they're supposed to. But there are many, many composers and musicians who have done it on their own.


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## patrick76 (Mar 18, 2017)

robgb said:


> You don't have to read music.


How would the musicians play your orchestral music if you lacked the ability to communicate it to them through music notation? What's the point of not learning to read music?


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## robgb (Mar 19, 2017)

patrick76 said:


> How would the musicians play your orchestral music if you lacked the ability to communicate it to them through music notation? What's the point of not learning to read music?


It isn't a matter of not learning to read music. It's that reading music is not a prerequisite for learning to compose or orchestrate. Different people have different brains. Some take to learning notation, others play by ear.


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## MarcusMaximus (Mar 20, 2017)

Alain Mayrand is also a fantastic teacher and composer/orchestrator. Used to do 1-1 lessons which were excellent but now he's mostly doing online courses here: https://scoreclub.net. Highly recommended.

I've been doing the ThinkSpace orchestral mixing course and find it to be excellent. Would definitely consider doing more of their courses.


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## GtrString (Mar 20, 2017)

MarcusMaximus said:


> Alain Mayrand is also a fantastic teacher and composer/orchestrator. Used to do 1-1 lessons which were excellent but now he's mostly doing online courses here: https://scoreclub.net. Highly recommended.
> 
> I've been doing the ThinkSpace orchestral mixing course and find it to be excellent. Would definitely consider doing more of their courses.



Did not know about Scoreclub. Looks really cool, thanks for the heads up!


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## MarcusMaximus (Mar 20, 2017)

GtrString said:


> Did not know about Scoreclub. Looks really cool, thanks for the heads up!



Yeah Alain is the real deal, no doubt about it.


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## jononotbono (Mar 20, 2017)

Daisser said:


> I take lessons from Norman on orchestration and he is truly an amazing resource, an excellent teacher, and an overall nice person!
> 
> Here is some insight for those looking at lessons or study.
> 
> ...



Ok, you've got my attention with your post. I'm going to hopefully be studying Cinematic Orchestration with Thinkspace from January next year and I may very well get in touch with Norman. Your post is spot on to my circumstance. Thanks.


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## MarcusMaximus (Mar 21, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Ok, you've got my attention with your post. I'm going to hopefully be studying Cinematic Orchestration with Thinkspace from January next year and I may very well get in touch with Norman. Your post is spot on to my circumstance. Thanks.



I agree. Great post (I love that about hitting the wall.. absolutely!) and Norman sounds like an excellent teacher in this regard. If I hadn't already invested so much in private composition lessons I would seriously consider getting in touch with him as well. No regrets about the path I chose though - my teacher was also excellent. Either way I would agree that getting a good private teacher is a great way to move forward.


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## Daisser (Mar 23, 2017)

MarcusMaximus said:


> I agree. Great post (I love that about hitting the wall.. absolutely!) and Norman sounds like an excellent teacher in this regard. If I hadn't already invested so much in private composition lessons I would seriously consider getting in touch with him as well. No regrets about the path I chose though - my teacher was also excellent. Either way I would agree that getting a good private teacher is a great way to move forward.



I'm glad you found my post helpful. If you can't take a lesson, you can always get one of his ebooks. He covers detailed analysis of scores that's easy to read (and of orchestal scores that are hard to find), contains audio examples of the material, and has awesome reference sheets. Only $30 a piece which is reasonable for what you get.


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## MarcusMaximus (Mar 23, 2017)

Daisser said:


> I'm glad you found my post helpful. If you can't take a lesson, you can always get one of his ebooks. He covers detailed analysis of scores that's easy to read (and of orchestal scores that are hard to find), contains audio examples of the material, and has awesome reference sheets. Only $30 a piece which is reasonable for what you get.



Many thanks for that suggestion. I will certainly check that out as score analysis and study were and still are for me one of the most valuable sources of learning. Excellent! 

Does Norman have a website where I can view his material or is it best to get in touch with him directly?


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## synergy543 (Mar 23, 2017)

MarcusMaximus said:


> Does Norman have a website where I can view his material or is it best to get in touch with him directly?



Norman has an absolutely amazing collection of books, all full of though-provoking analysis and inspiring compositional ideas.
http://www.musicnewapproach.com/


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## MarcusMaximus (Mar 23, 2017)

synergy543 said:


> Norman has an absolutely amazing collection of books, all full of though-provoking analysis and inspiring compositional ideas.
> http://www.musicnewapproach.com/



That's great. Thanks very much. I'm gonna have a good browse right now!


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