# Affordable lightweight full orchestra?



## Syneast (Feb 16, 2017)

Pretend for a moment that you are building a full, high quality orchestral library to use on a sort of mid grade, affordable laptop. I'm thinking Core i5 with 8 GB of RAM or something. Whether or not it has an SSD shouldn't matter. The point of this challenge is to pick the orchestra for the specs and not the other way around.

So the critera for the libraries are as follows:

*- Should run fine on Core i5 with 8 GB of RAM*
And I mean pretty much the whole thing. If I have to start freezing tracks after a couple of instruments I may as well just install EW Hollywood Orchestra and be done with it. I am looking for RAM efficient libraries so I can avoid freezing as far as possible.

*- Kontakt based or otherwise free of dongles and license transfers*
Really, if I have to bring extra stuff or move my licenses from my desktop computer to my laptop I might as well just stay home and use the desktop. I want to be able to grab the laptop in a haste and be ready to go. I'm fine with needing an Internet connection for authorization though.

*- Complete*
Or at least giving off a sense of completeness. I'm fine with not having sordinos, mutes, flautandos, measured tremolos, flutters and those types of special articulations. If the library however is missing essential articulations like legatos or spiccatos, or if it's missing any of the basic instruments, it's a no-go.

*- Separate sections*
While an ensemble library like Albion or Orchestral Essentials can offer a nice sounding catch-all backbone with a small footprint, it's not primarily what this challenge is about.

*- Traditional instruments*
This challenge concerns only your standard strings, brass, woodwinds and orchestral percussion. Other things like epic percussion, choir, piano and whatnot can always be added to taste.

*- Cinematic sound/tone*
I am not talking about mega braaams and epic thunder taikos. I just need it to sound like it could appear in a Hollywood film after at most some minor eq/reverb processing. More film than classical. Think Cinebrass.
*
- Affordable*
Let's not get carried away here. This is for laptop use. If I want to use expensive libraries I can stay at home.

*My contenders so far:*
Strings: LASS Lite @ 2.8 GB
Brass: Cinebrass Core @ 11 GB
Woodwinds: *???*
Percussion: Rhapsody Orchestral Percussion @ 4 GB (16 bit samples)

That's an impressive *17.8 GB* in total for a full (well) orchestra with legatos and all(!) I know it can't all be loaded into 8 GB of RAM, but with Kontakt being as efficient as it is, I think it's fine. I have absolutely no idea what to do for woodwinds though. Cinewinds Core is missing a lot of instruments and VSL Woodwinds require a dongle. The rest are quite large and expensive. My best idea so far is to throw WIPS scripts on either Kontakt Factory Library or EWQLSO winds. It's okay but it's not true legato.

What are your contenders? Is anyone but me even interested in this sort of thing? What would you do about the woodwinds?


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## tav.one (Feb 16, 2017)

Definitely interested to know.


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## Paul T McGraw (Feb 16, 2017)

You have set yourself a very difficult challenge.

But some of the older mockups show that good results are possible within similar limits. It will be as if you are traveling back in time to 2004.

In most writing styles today woodwinds are NOT emphasized, which is good for your goals. WW's rarely get solos any more. So you could try Garritan GPO, or Wallander. Both are very lite on resources and not very expensive.

Based on your goals, you might want to substitue Wallander WIVI for the Cinebrass. With only 8GB of RAM, I don't know if you could load a full Cinebrass brass section plus woodwinds and strings.


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## Lawson. (Feb 16, 2017)

Why not just get QLSO? It isn't Kontakt based, but I'm pretty sure you can activate it on your computer instead of requiring a dongle.


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## ohernie (Feb 16, 2017)

Kirk Hunter? Seems to me to be the "middle ground".


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## Michayl Asaph (Feb 16, 2017)

I got steinberg Halion Symphony Orchestra.... its a little dated, the player only loads one instrument, and no legato, but it sounds actually pretty amazing.... love the strings plus its loaded with articulations.... very cpu friendly. I use it quite often. Hope this helps


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## ctsai89 (Feb 16, 2017)

instead of cinebrass, I would go for Chris Hein Orchestra Brass

Woodwinds: spitfire.


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## ctsai89 (Feb 16, 2017)

Lawson. said:


> Why not just get QLSO? It isn't Kontakt based, but I'm pretty sure you can activate it on your computer instead of requiring a dongle.



QLSO is a huge bad idea. Some notes within the same instruments are still not balanced in volume. THat's quite laughable.


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## sazema (Feb 16, 2017)

Percussion - Rhapsody - ok
Woodwinds - Kontakt 5 factory (vsl legacy, enough good)
Brass - Cinebrass Core or NI Symphonic Brass ensemble + little help from vsl legacy
Strings - questionary! Soaring strings + little help from vsl legacy
+ one all-round synth at the top: Zebra
From IMHO, for laptop usage (travel etc) Kontakt 5 factory (Orchestral) will give you everything for mockuping. Other suggestion is to go with Garritan 5 GPO, or even SoniVOX orchestral bundles (I have no idea about prices).
Also, I have no idea is there a old East West QL Symphonic Platinum package available for buying, it's still good library. You have 3 mic position patches and stunning sound for mockup.


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## DSmolken (Feb 17, 2017)

GPO 5 is actually good for filling in gaps in completeness, section size etc. Might not be a bad choice for woodwinds, choirs, piano, harp...


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## Saxer (Feb 17, 2017)

Lots of laptops today eat 16 GB ram. Why make it more difficult than needed?
On the other hand: until 3 years ago I had 12 GB in my 2006 Macpro and survived. At that time I could load brass sections with one Samplemodeling for top lines and added Wallander brass to fill the sections. That selection was for CPU reasons mostly. Same with LASS: I could load it but not all layers (A/B/C) also because of CPU. If I needed strings and brass I made two songs. Finished brass first and added the finished audio bounce to the string song. Everything works somehow. But today it's easier and with far better results.
For traveling I would use Wallander for wind and brass and an ensemble for strings (i.e. Cornucopia). Or CineSymphony lite.


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## robgb (Feb 17, 2017)

For woodwinds, don't discount the Kontakt Factory Library VSL legacy instruments. They have modwheel xfades and you can spruce them up with legato, etc., using Big Bob's WIPS scripts.


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## Ashermusic (Feb 17, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> QLSO is a huge bad idea. Some notes within the same instruments are still not balanced in volume. THat's quite laughable.



And yet it is the best selling orchestral library of all time. Just saying.


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## chibear (Feb 17, 2017)

You didn't say if you are running windows or mac nor what DAW you're using. IF you are on a windows machine, your OS will eat up almost 4 of your 8 GB of RAM, leaving not much to work with unless you want to be constantly bouncing tracks to audio in order to save resources. Otherwise quite a few of the suggestions above will run you out of RAM quite quickly. Furthermore an i5 is a little less than middle of the road for a DAW these days. Better to spend a bit more on i7 and 16GB of RAM as suggested above and have a little breathing room.

To the OP: You've kind of painted yourself into a corner with features vs machine. The only ones I could suggest would be Miroslav I, GPO, Kontakt Factory legacy lib, and EWQLSO silver (they have machine licenses now) Your 'Compete' parameter is IMO is impossible to satisfy with your machine and price range.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 17, 2017)

EWQLSO or VSL SE orch.


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## Syneast (Feb 17, 2017)

Thanks everyone for your fine suggestions, and thanks for pointing out my ridiculous expectations. I kind of knew that I am chasing an impossible fantasy, but I needed to hear it.

Many times have I listened to the "smaller" options like Kirk Hunter, Miroslav, Halion, GPO, etc. and while I really want to like them, I just can't. Even if I like some of them better than others, at the end of the day I always decide against them because of the lack of true legato or some other standard feature like modwheel dynamics. I need a go-to library, and adding bloat libraries that still don't have everything I need is just going to fill up the laptop hard drive and still leave a desire for more.

I feel like I have gotten some valuable insight from this thread. Either my library list or the computer specs needs adjusting. I am thinking of using a Windows machine, so RAM is of course going to be sparse. This means that if I want to keep the laptop on the cheap side, Cinebrass is not a good idea, being the largest library and all. I quite like Jasper Blunk's freebie brass, so that could work. LASS Lite is arguably the smallest string library with true legato, so there really aren't any options there. Kontakt Factory Library woodwinds still seems like the best bet for woodwinds. At least I can get a workable faux legato there.

*So my adjusted list could look something like this:*
Strings: LASS Lite @ 2.8 GB
Brass: Jasper Blunk Brass @ 0.8 GB
Woodwinds: Kontakt Factory Library VSL woodwinds @ ~0.7 GB?
Percussion: Rhapsody @ 4 GB

That's a total of around *8.3 GB* which is even smaller than Orchestral Essentials.

Or... OR... I could just say screw it and forget all about legato and just use my old Kontakt version of EWQLSO, period. It's surprisingly light while at the same time being quite extensive and great sounding. I keep coming back to this option a lot. Sure, it sounds over-used, but therein lies a fun challenge I imagine.


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## Paul T McGraw (Feb 17, 2017)

Syneast said:


> Thanks everyone for your fine suggestions, and thanks for pointing out my ridiculous expectations. I kind of knew that I am chasing an impossible fantasy, but I needed to hear it.
> 
> Many times have I listened to the "smaller" options like Kirk Hunter, Miroslav, Halion, GPO, etc. and while I really want to like them, I just can't. Even if I like some of them better than others, at the end of the day I always decide against them because of the lack of true legato or some other standard feature like modwheel dynamics. I need a go-to library, and adding bloat libraries that still don't have everything I need is just going to fill up the laptop hard drive and still leave a desire for more.
> 
> ...



I just remembered Adventure Brass, great sound, and lite on resources. If you just load the main patches it is about .6 GB and the sound is really nice. You need to find a less RAM heavy percussion option.


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## ctsai89 (Feb 17, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> And yet it is the best selling orchestral library of all time. Just saying.



East west is really good at marketing. They cheapen everything when certain time passes


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## Syneast (Feb 17, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> I just remembered Adventure Brass, great sound, and lite on resources. If you just load the main patches it is about .6 GB and the sound is really nice. You need to find a less RAM heavy percussion option.


Now we are talking. I knew it sounded great but I didn't know it was that light. Good tip!

Also, I do have True Strike for percussion, but it's double the size of Rhapsody. My guess is that EWQLSO percussion is probably the lightest and best sounding option out there?


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## Piotrek K. (Feb 17, 2017)

Dongle is a poor idea for mobile work that is true but despite that VSL SE is the thing that would fit almost all your needs. Legato, a lot of content, affordable, low on CPU / RAM (30 instruments with 4 to 10 articulations per instance eats about 2,5 - 3 gigs, so with 8 gigs you can load really huge orchestra). Eh, I really hope guys from VSL are working on their own copy protection without dongles...

And actually windows is not THAT much RAM hungry. I use windows 10 and it uses something like 2 - 2,5 half GB on startup including all startup crap (nvidia panel, firewall etc) + browser etc.

And yes, I have 8 gigs of RAM and i5 (but it's a desktop). Unfortunately I don't feel like I'm time travelling :(


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## The Darris (Feb 17, 2017)

It's dated but I think Hollywoodwinds by CineSamples could give you some mileage compared to the VSL woods in Kontakt Factory. The only downside is that it is an ensemble library so you don't get the individual instrument sections. However so, it does sound great out of the box and in a mix plus you get tons of FX, Runs, and textures to use next to the single articulations. It's only 3.7 gb. 

Best,

Chris


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## ctsai89 (Feb 17, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> I just remembered Adventure Brass, great sound, and lite on resources. If you just load the main patches it is about .6 GB and the sound is really nice. You need to find a less RAM heavy percussion option.



is jasper blunk the developer at musical sampling?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Feb 17, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> is jasper blunk the developer at musical sampling?


No, Aaron Sapp


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## sazema (Feb 17, 2017)

Syneast said:


> Now we are talking. I knew it sounded great but I didn't know it was that light. Good tip!
> 
> Also, I do have True Strike for percussion, but it's double the size of Rhapsody. My guess is that EWQLSO percussion is probably the lightest and best sounding option out there?


You just can't go wrong with EWQLSO in any case. Still using that library very often.


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## Syneast (Feb 17, 2017)

Piotrek K. said:


> Dongle is a poor idea for mobile work that is true but despite that VSL SE is the thing that would fit almost all your needs. Legato, a lot of content, affordable, low on CPU / RAM (30 instruments with 4 to 10 articulations per instance eats about 2,5 - 3 gigs, so with 8 gigs you can load really huge orchestra). Eh, I really hope guys from VSL are working on their own copy protection without dongles...


Yeah, I have the VSL SE vol. 1 Plus bundle, and it's amazingly lightweight and versatile. It would be perfect if it wasn't for the dongle. Sometimes I think about breaking the no dongle rule, but I am really more keen on investing in something simple that works reliably without addons.



sazema said:


> You just can't go wrong with EWQLSO in any case. Still using that library very often.


I did some tests with WIPS scripts on the EWQLSO woodwinds and I have to say it doesn't sound half bad. It even has the woodwind ensembles which is quite uncommon these days. The Gold Pro XP library is something like 35 GB in total, but it contains so many patches that the individual patches themselves are relatively small. It's also a nice catch-all for FX and less essential articulations.

*New plan: *
Strings: LASS Lite
Brass: Adventure Brass and/or JB brass
Woodwinds: EWQLSO/Kontakt VSL
Percussion: EWQLSO/Kontakt VSL

Don't know how to calculate space requirements for EWQLSO winds and perc, but I am assuming I have at least slimmed it down below Kontakt VSL and Rhapsody. I am also bending the true legato rule for brass now, partly because I am interested in writing the sort of fortissimo adventure pieces that Adventure Brass or Angry Brass are suited for, and partly because a lightweight brass library with legato just doesn't exist.


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## tonaliszt (Feb 17, 2017)

I work on a small mac laptop (4 gb ram) running logic. My orchestral template is the following:
Strings: Cinesymphony LITE (customized and scripted to respond in a similar manner to spitfire's performance legato)
Brass: Cinesymphony LITE (customized and scripted to respond in a similar manner to adventure brass), solo brass from the Alpine Project
Woodwinds: All Alpine Project
Percussion: Cinesymphony LITE


PM me if you want to hear demos of this setup. I can assure you this will run fine on your machine.

For some additional instruments outside of the standard orchestra, the Kontakt factory lib is great, Strezov Cornucopia for additional string artics and smaller ensemble size, and soundiron micro packs for regular and childrens chorus and epic drums.


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## ctsai89 (Feb 17, 2017)

where do i get jasper blunk brass tho?


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## Naoki Ohmori (Feb 17, 2017)

I didn't read all posts yet but how about sketching with a light library like Miroslav or GPO and then replacing it to heavier resource libraries ; rendering to audio one by one? 
Mostly one instrument/articulation doesn't eat up more than 8GB even if it's RAM heavy.


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## sazema (Feb 18, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> where do i get jasper blunk brass tho?


http://bigcatinstruments.blogspot.ba/2016/01/jasper-blunk.html


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## constaneum (Feb 18, 2017)

Did i miss out anything but it seems ProjectSAM's Symphobia is left out ? It's a pretty good sounding orchestra library if you like that kind of "at your face" sound.


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## JPQ (Feb 18, 2017)

I understanded EWQL 2.5ghz and 8gigabytes of ram is bit heavy but i asked in mac side i dont know if changes things much if changes does anyone know where is problem more spefically than is Play or os related more details.


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## Syneast (Feb 18, 2017)

Naoki Ohmori said:


> I didn't read all posts yet but how about sketching with a light library like Miroslav or GPO and then replacing it to heavier resource libraries ; rendering to audio one by one?


That workflow may work for some, but for me it doesn't make as much sense with music as it does with video editing for example. A low resolution video clip still looks and feels the same way as the full resolution version of the same clip. When making music however, the way I make it depends so much on the sound I am hearing while I am making it. There is no way I'm going to be able to write an emotional legato line with a non-legato sustain patch with insufficient velocity layers, and then just replace it and render it with a different library. The response of the higher quality library will be so different that I will have to either re-record the line or spend some time massaging the midi and cc data. Of course one could work that way, but if I don't hear an emotional legato line when I play an emotional legato line, that emotional legato line will simply not get written in the first place. I guess I am one of those people who is inspired by samples.



constaneum said:


> Did i miss out anything but it seems ProjectSAM's Symphobia is left out ? It's a pretty good sounding orchestra library if you like that kind of "at your face" sound.


While Symphobia sounds great and offers a lot of value, I am primarily looking for libraries with separate sections. Otherwise I would just get something like Orchestral Essentials in a heart beat.


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## leon chevalier (Feb 18, 2017)

@Syneast I'm in the same quest ! I've a got laptop with SSD, 8Go and an I7 (but not a top level one). I'm looking for separate instruments and non dongle library.

I went for :
Strings : strings essential from Best Service Complete orchestral collection. Still sound good despite it's age ! (you can try it on try sound)
Woodwind : Chris Hein WW. Can be very light on RAM if you don't use all the articulations.
Brass : Sample Modeling
Perc and Harp : I'm using the perc and Harp from Best Service Complete orchestral collection but I plan to go with the Kontakt factory ones. I'm waiting for the 50% off upgrade sale to buy kontakt.


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## ctsai89 (Feb 18, 2017)

leon chevalier said:


> @Syneast I'm in the same quest ! I've a got laptop with SSD, 8Go and an I7 (but not a top level one). I'm looking for separate instruments and non dongle library.
> 
> I went for :
> Strings : strings essential from Best Service Complete orchestral collection. Still sound good despite it's age ! (you can try it on try sound)
> ...



I have the CH brass but I don't know how to not use all articulations. Is there a way to turn off all the articulations except the one you use?

edit nvm i figured out but it doens't seem to save much RAM at all.


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## leon chevalier (Feb 18, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> I have the CH brass but I don't know how to not use all articulations. Is there a way to turn off all the articulations except the one you use?



There it is :




I do not have CH Brass but I guess it's the same as WW.

Keep in mind that if you turn on the "Note Head", that will load automatically the 6 short articulations into ram, even if you don't set them in a keyswitch slot.

Leon


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## Quasar (Feb 18, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> I have the CH brass but I don't know how to not use all articulations. Is there a way to turn off all the articulations except the one you use?
> 
> edit nvm i figured out but it doens't seem to save much RAM at all.



I have the CH Brass Compact which is much lighter & cheaper and already lacks a bunch of articulations. I'll trade you straight-up!


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## ctsai89 (Feb 18, 2017)

Tugboat said:


> I have the CH Brass Compact which is much lighter & cheaper and already lacks a bunch of articulations. I'll trade you straight-up!



HAHA lol nahhhh i do need all of the articulations. I'm upgrading from 32gb RAM to 64 soon. Just annoys me I have to unplug all the USB and thunderbolt to open up the trash can lol.


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## bigcat1969 (Feb 18, 2017)

Thoughts from freebie bigcat Kontakt land.

Passable Violin...
http://bestofbigcat.blogspot.com/2016/04/ldk1609-violin.html

Solid Cello and Double Bass...
http://bigcatinstruments.blogspot.com/2016/06/karoryfer-collection.html

Nice Flute and Trombone, also alternative Cello...
http://bigcatinstruments.blogspot.com/2014/04/mslp-project.html

Woodwinds and Brass Solo Instruments might be useful... I'm going to rework them significantly when I get around too it.
http://bigcatinstruments.blogspot.com/2016/07/vsco-2-kontakt.html

At some point you are gonna need Pianos and Organs...
http://bigcatinstruments.blogspot.com/2015/09/all-keyboard-instruments.html


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## ctsai89 (Feb 18, 2017)

By the way, Project SAM orchestral brass seems to be light on the system.


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## Vardaro (Feb 19, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> HAHA lol nahhhh i do need all of the articulations. I'm upgrading from 32gb RAM to 64 soon. Just annoys me I have to unplug all the USB and thunderbolt to open up the trash can lol.


If one uses the "clean start" instrument, the articulations are only loaded as the need arises.


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## ctsai89 (Feb 19, 2017)

Vardaro said:


> If one uses the "clean start" instrument, the articulations are only loaded as the need arises.



oh wow, thanks. sustain is only 5mb lol thanks


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## moosethree (Aug 5, 2017)

tonaliszt said:


> I work on a small mac laptop (4 gb ram) running logic. My orchestral template is the following:
> Strings: Cinesymphony LITE (customized and scripted to respond in a similar manner to spitfire's performance legato)
> Brass: Cinesymphony LITE (customized and scripted to respond in a similar manner to adventure brass), solo brass from the Alpine Project
> Woodwinds: All Alpine Project
> ...



I would love information on scripting Cinesymphony Lite to respond like performance legato! That might sell me on getting it. I would think Cinesamples would be interested in such as that would increase sales.

I left in another post I find VSL SE/Epic Orchestra blends really well with Berlin Inspire......


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