# Tips & tricks for manipulating producers? (aka how to make a producer happy)



## chillbot (Jan 19, 2015)

This is inspired from a post I wrote in another thread about key changes:

1) I also like to go half step or whole step higher than the temp track if there's a temp. Like if the temp is 120 Am I'll go 122 Bbm I find that it gives the perception of "brightening" the music which makes the producer respond better to the new track.

It’s amazing how well that actually works. Anyway here’s a list of other tricks I routinely use, I’d like to hear yours if you have any.

2a) There's the obvious trick that’s been around forever of when you really want to sell something give them two options, one of which sucks and the good track you want to sell last, make them feel like they are involved in the decision, choosing the track you want them to choose.

2b) Bad apple good apple orange. This is a sales trick so common it has a name... you want to sell the apple so give the producer the apple and a bad apple (lesser version) and an orange (alternate version). They will choose the apple because it sounds great in comparison to the bad apple.

3) Also related, when you have a full orch/hybrid track going with drums and orch slamming and the mix is maxed out and there's really nothing left you can add and you get the dreaded note "it's good but let's make it even BIGGER, better"... go pretend to work on it for a day but don’t add anything to it, just take out one big element in a commonly muddy register like a grunge guitar or low brass and give it back to them. In my experience, 80% of the time they will think it sounds bigger and better (maybe it actually does sound better, cleaner), and the other 20% of the time if they still want it bigger you just add back whatever you took out and they’re sold.

4a) When you make a delivery of music tracks, especially library music, make sure your best tracks begin with A B or C. Producers and editors always listen to tracks on a computer in alphabetical order. I always make sure my best track begins with A to sell them right off the bat. Then if I have any “filler” tracks that are just kind of fluff those are always in the bottom 1/3 of the alphabet.

4b) If you’re not the only composer in a library or on a show, make a habit of naming your tracks in the top 1/3 or top 1/2 of the alphabet. If all of the tracks are in a bin, the editor will start going through them alphabetically and yours will get used way more.

5) Related, track names are really important to editors. If you’re working on a show called “Everglades” write a track called “Everglades” and don’t be shocked if they wind up using it as the theme. It happens all the time. Don’t use track names like “Getting it Done” that are meaningless, I like one-word names like “Despondent” which immediately generates an emotion and describes the track. If you’re working on a reality show most definitely write a track called “nomination ceremony” or “elimination” or “voting” and guess what the editor is going to grab and use every week.

6) I'm really fast, sometimes they'll apologetically give me *only* a day to score a scene but I might finish it in a few hours. I will never ever deliver the scene early, this gives the impression that I can do this every time, and leaves them tons of time to fire back with notes and fixes. Instead I’ll go golf and deliver it an hour or two before the deadline and be a hero. Yes, it’s a bit selfish... but I don’t think I should be penalized for being fast.

Not to completely bash producers. I actually find that 95% of the time when I get a note or fix that I completely disagree with, if I check the ego and do my best to work with the producer, when the track is finished I actually think it's way better. Cheers to producers, someone has to do it.

Edit: edited title.


----------



## amordechai (Jan 19, 2015)

Thanks!


----------



## givemenoughrope (Jan 19, 2015)

i've actually started to do some stuff like this. I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking this way. ha

thanks


----------



## gsilbers (Jan 19, 2015)

*Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*

nice!


----------



## Qomodo (Jan 19, 2015)

Very refreshing and eye-opening! Thank you for sharing your tricks!

-D-


----------



## Andrajas (Jan 19, 2015)

*Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*

Thanks!


----------



## pkm (Jan 19, 2015)

*Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*

Is it just me or is this the totally the wrong attitude to take? Instead of trying to trick a producer into liking something, why not work to make them legitimately happy? You should be working together, not against each other.


----------



## Rob Elliott (Jan 19, 2015)

*Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*

Good ideas. For TV where it is often a 'feel/bed of music' the tempo bump (up) can work but not typically for a film that is CUT to the nat's rear end on the tempo/hits. The only caveat - again good ideas.


----------



## tokatila (Jan 19, 2015)

*Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*


----------



## reddognoyz (Jan 19, 2015)

*Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*



pkm @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> Is it just me or is this the totally the wrong attitude to take? Instead of trying to trick a producer into liking something, why not work to make them legitimately happy? You should be working together, not against each other.




good luck with that 


my least liked tasks in pleasing producers: 

when they insist on me scoring the show they wanted to make instead of the one they did make. 

when they reference pop songs as a template and feel for underscore.

my favorite comment ever from a producer:

"what we need here is the illusion of drama"


----------



## dgburns (Jan 19, 2015)

*Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*

I wanted to bake you for the title....but then I read the post and realized i do all this too.

crap,oh well.guess it's universal then o-[][]-o


----------



## JohnG (Jan 19, 2015)

*Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*

The truth can be painful.

Good tips on the reality stuff chillbot, and a good laugh on all of it.


----------



## Biome_Digital (Jan 19, 2015)

This was an interesting read.


----------



## chillbot (Jan 19, 2015)

*Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*



pkm @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> Is it just me or is this the totally the wrong attitude to take? Instead of trying to trick a producer into liking something, why not work to make them legitimately happy? You should be working together, not against each other.



Yes of course you're right that's why I included the last line about in my experience producers can and actually do make things ultimately better.

My experience comes from 15 years in TV (no film) where there's really no such thing as a director and as such no such ideal as the collaborative relationship between a director and composer. Producers are a different breed and you are not going to find a producer that has the musical experience that you have (that's why they hire you, but they may not appreciate being told that). It's your job to lead them down the correct path while managing egos and make them feel like they are contributing.

Some of these tricks (like all of the first 3) may just be to battle temp love, which none of us should have to do. A producer may not realize that the reason they love the temp is not that it's better for the scene (nevermind cost 10x as much to produce) but simply because they've heard it 100 times.

In golf we call it unconscious incompetence. It's the worst kind of producer and probably the most common. They don't know what they don't know about music, they think music looks easy. They don't know enough about it to know that they couldn't do it if they tried.

The next stage in learning golf is conscious incompetence and it's where most of us bogey golfers are, and it's the absolute best kind of producer. We know enough to know how much we don't know. I'm sure that most of us on this board are at level 3 minimum (conscious competence) and most likely level 4 (unconscious competence). I would kill to be at level 4 on the golf course. But you're not going to find a producer at level 3 or 4, and you don't need to... if you find a level 2 then you may not need any tricks at all. Keep working for that guy or gal.

P.S. Thanks for the responses, though I was really hoping to hear more tricks that you use.


----------



## Vin (Jan 19, 2015)

Excellent post, thank you!


----------



## gsilbers (Jan 19, 2015)

good points! LA does have its "Types" .

i dont have tricks. i still try to make it sound "bigger" hahaha. or get it in the pocket, or bombastic or a "great beat" or whatever cool lingo they are speaking over in the west side. (im in pasadena) 
so reading these does help. still trying to understand and help but lack of music awareness makes it difficult tp help.


----------



## PMortise (Jan 19, 2015)

*Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*



reddognoyz @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> ...my favorite comment ever from a producer: "what we need here is the illusion of drama"


Priceless! :lol:


----------



## Saxer (Jan 19, 2015)

*Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*

never believe producers if they want something 'creative', 'never heared before' or 'innovative'. they definitely don't want that! never!

for directors and producers 'cheep' music is no easy or low budget music. it's music every other director/producer would use (i.e. big orchestral score for sf).

same for 'strange' or 'wonky' ot whatever... wonky music for them might be a country song for a battle or a requiem for a wedding szene.

if they want the music 'faster' add a 16th shaker or arp-synth but don't change the tempo.

i often lost jobs because i thought: 'oh no, i can't do that again!' so don't be afraid of 'funny animal'-pizzicatos, endless staccato-strings with damage drums or three 'romantic' piano notes over a pad.

especially for comedy and children music a lot of producers are used to extreme midi-sounds. so often the old cheesy akai samples are preferred over fine spitfire deepness.

it's much easier to get succession jobs if they know your face. 'net only'-jobs are without sustainability.

don't make two really good alternate versions (i.e. a slow emotional piano+synthpad version and a fast orchestral). at the end they want the slow piano with the tempo and fatness of the orchestra together with a synthpad. i call that the "crème brûlée with caviar"-effect. (getting the best of two worlds, no matter how it tastes.)


----------



## mus3man42 (Jan 19, 2015)

*Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*



chillbot @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> It's your job to lead them down the correct path while managing egos and make them feel like they are contributing.



Funny thing is I have a friend who's a co-executive producer who was just telling me this is the most important part of her job IN DEALING WITH THE OTHER PRODUCERS...it's not even a secret to them!

P.S. This may be the most useful thread I've ever seen on here. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## gsilbers (Jan 19, 2015)

*Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*



Saxer @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> never believe producers if they want something 'creative', 'never heared before' or 'innovative'. they definitely don't want that! never!
> 
> for directors and producers 'cheep' music is no easy or low budget music. it's music every other director/producer would use (i.e. big orchestral score for sf).
> 
> ...



true - on the producers defense, they do need to answer to the execs and studios. 
i take it as they need to show they are "producing" and also that their choice is the correct. so imo , a trick would be sell them the cue this way. in that their "changes" worked and that its good cuz "X". "X" is not that important as long as its logical. that in an email looks like "oh, yes that makes sense to do "X". 

me being one that has been to stockholders meeting "events" (think apple events but for movies) i can tell you that studios dont want new or different. they want the same that has worked before. so franchises, mashups , toy making idea-movie, etc. they want the same but with a small change. so aything new and crazy the producers decides to do, they really mean the same but maybe with a small difference. 

on the studios defense i can say that they need to not scare of the common middle america/EU viewer. there is a lot of peoples livelihoods in the line so doing somehting wrong or too different is worrisome. 

therefore... sell your cue in a way that if the producer sends the idea to an exec/other producers, yes its logical. logical as in its worked before in a similar movie but added this extra X or whatever.


----------



## David Donaldson (Jan 19, 2015)

*Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*

Great list.
One of the briefs we once got was "I want something totally contemporary and none of that stuff that just goes round and round the same" After endless demos and huge frustration what he actually wanted was retro latin feels with hardly any chords, basically retro music that went round and round.
And another classic form the same guy.
"There's an instrument in there I don't like"
Us 
"which one the bass or drums?
Him
"I don't know, the one that goes dum dum dum" (singing the sound of a bass )


----------



## chillbot (Jan 20, 2015)

*Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*



Saxer @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> never believe producers if they want something 'creative', 'never heared before' or 'innovative'. they definitely don't want that! never!


I've found this to be 100% true. They like to ask for it but never use it. You have to tone everything down. "Edgy" is one of the worst adjectives because my idea of edgy and their idea of edgy might be the difference between NIN and Yanni.

My thing with TV music is it's a lot of "fusion" and the producers love it. You might call it hybrid but it's more than that. It's anything fused with standard television fare.

You want dubstep? No you don't actually want dubstep, but it's OK to do standard reality marcato strings and add in just a touch of toned-down wobble bass.

You want country? No you don't, you want a standard tension cue with a touch of slide guitar on top.

You want bluegrass? Not really. Let's do a Thomas newman type cue with a banjo melody.

There's other fusion that's more fun. One time the reward on a show was "glamping". Fuse country and dance, done. That was kind of fun. UFC goes to Latin America? Fuse hip hop, metal, and latin. I did one fusing bossa and dubstep, which are typically at similar tempos (140 or 70).


----------



## reddognoyz (Jan 20, 2015)

+1 on the "fusion" exactly on point.


----------



## Markus S (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*



tokatila @ Mon Jan 19 said:


>



Love it.


----------



## chillbot (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*



Markus S @ Wed Jan 21 said:


> Love it.



Verified.


----------



## Kejero (Jan 22, 2015)

Good stuff. Maybe this should be moved to the "members only" section though


----------



## mr (Jan 22, 2015)

Great post, thanks chillbot.



> I actually find that 95% of the time when I get a note or fix that I completely disagree with, if I check the ego and do my best to work with the producer, when the track is finished I actually think it's way better.



I completely agree.

Where do I find your post about key changes?


----------



## Will Blackburn (May 16, 2015)

Great info thanks.


----------



## chillbot (Nov 4, 2016)

tokatila said:


> *Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*



I know I'm bumping my old thread but I just stole this meme and I love you for it.


----------



## chillbot (Nov 4, 2016)

If I could add a few more. Not so much about producers but about editors who can be your best friends and decide how many of your tracks get used, also about productivity. OK, pretty much just random shit:

[disclaimer this has only to do with TV or library music and not "real" music, this is about selling tracks for money]

1) In TV or library music don't modulate ever, instead write a new separate cue.

2a) Editors hate when they can’t edit the end of your piece onto the beginning of your piece. This matters a ton because in many cases editors are the ones deciding whether or not your cue gets used. In lieu of modulation just repeat the last passage with the strings up an octave, it works. If you do modulate, it works well to go up a 2nd or a minor 3rd for the middle 3rd of the track, then back down to the original key for the last 3rd. Just make sure you're always ending in the same key as you started.

2b) See #1. For real.

2c) There is a seldom-used but effective trick whereas when you modulate to the new key you bend everything up to the new key instead of a hard change of keys (or the worst, a progression of keys modulating to the new key). Slide everything up via pitch bend to the new key (horns, strings, etc) and editors can then use this both to "up" the drama in a scene and/or to cut to the end of the cue. But when in doubt stick to #1.

3a) Keep the tempo the same always. If you change tempo they will hate you.

3b) One of the reasons they will hate you is you need to start every cue and submix and stem at the same point in your audio file. Make absolutely sure if you're giving them stems or submixes they start at the same point so they can bring them all in at once and cut between them. If you are changing tempos this goes out the window and they can't edit it. If you're changing tempos you need to write separate cues, see #1.

4a) A great trick is false endings or breaks in the cue. This gives them a natural spot to edit. I like to throw in a 2/4 measure or 4/4 measure break every 16 measures or so. Something with a nice out, then a fill or woosh back in.

4b) Some editors/producers HATE THIS. So be warned. Some absolutely love it because it makes it so easily editable, others hate it because they really really want the track to BUILD FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE END NONSTOP.

5) If you're on the fence and can't decide if your cue is too slow or not, it's too slow. All the time. Trust me on this, bump it up 5bpm and go.

6a) If you need to write a ton of tracks, go to thesaurus.com or wikipedia.org and put in your subject matter, you will come up with a ton of track names that will inspire you to write tracks based on the track names. Get the track names first, the cues will follow. You'll be amazed how much easier it is to write a track when you already have the name of the track.

6b) Again, if you have to write a ton of tracks, so much of the mental block comes from the 'blank slate' approach. If you have to write 12 tracks, lay them out (with track names) in 12 different keys and 12 different tempos, now you have a structure for each track that will dictate what you write.

7) Simple is good. Can you orchestrate one note for 2 minutes? This is something I remember an instructor Tibor Pusztai having us do... orchestrate just one note for an orchestra for two minutes. It turns out library music is very similar. You can have chord changes and textural changes but just forget key changes and tempo changes and everything else that you want to do.

EDIT: 8) This is something very true to me recently. If a producer ever says “think outside the box” or “we want to push the envelope” DON’T DO IT. This is producer-talk for “we want cliché". Just humor them and make them think that cliche is completely outside the box.


----------



## gsilbers (Nov 4, 2016)

chillbot said:


> *Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*
> 
> 
> I've found this to be 100% true. They like to ask for it but never use it. You have to tone everything down. "Edgy" is one of the worst adjectives because my idea of edgy and their idea of edgy might be the difference between NIN and Yanni.
> ...



the dubstep example resonated with me. this is so true!

are you doing "countdown to UFC" tracks?!


----------



## Desire Inspires (Nov 4, 2016)

chillbot said:


> This is inspired from a post I wrote in another thread about key changes:
> 
> 1) I also like to go half step or whole step higher than the temp track if there's a temp. Like if the temp is 120 Am I'll go 122 Bbm I find that it gives the perception of "brightening" the music which makes the producer respond better to the new track.
> 
> ...




You have given us the keys to the kingdom. Thank you!


----------



## Desire Inspires (Nov 4, 2016)

pkm said:


> *Re: tips & tricks for manipulating producers?*
> 
> Is it just me or is this the totally the wrong attitude to take? Instead of trying to trick a producer into liking something, why not work to make them legitimately happy? You should be working together, not against each other.


Naw, I disagree. 

Many people actually don't know what they like. The strategy Chillbit described is kind of what Steve Jobs used. He made what people wanted even though they didn't know they wanted it. 

People are easy to influence with the right choices presented to them. The "bad apple, good apple, orange" approach works.


----------



## desert (Nov 7, 2016)

Desire Inspires said:


> Naw, I disagree.
> 
> Many people actually don't know what they like. The strategy Chillbit described is kind of what Steve Jobs used. He made what people wanted even though they didn't know they wanted it.
> 
> People are easy to influence with the right choices presented to them. The "bad apple, good apple, orange" approach works.


It's just sales pitching, really


----------



## Baron Greuner (Nov 8, 2016)

(NB> TV & Film Library music only)

Modulation is a BIG FKG No NO!

If I hear someones track and it starts to modulate it's not worth even thinking about it.

Sudden and many tempo changes are a BIG FKG No NO!!

The only time you can get away with a tempo change, is probably technical. For example, if you change the time signature during the track and you need to balance the tempo with the previous and future time signature changes.

Always BUMP UP YOUR TEMPO IF IT SEEMS TOO SLOW!!!

Tracks can and do sound turgid. If they sound too slow to you, they will to the music editors. Tempo bumps are your friend (but not tempo changes)

Music editors DON'T LIKE SUDDEN SURPRISES!!!!

Keep it simple. Keep it stupid.

Simple doesn't mean you have to constantly write simple music, like you're some kind of moron that's just escaped from a garden centre. It can be technically difficult and good in it's own right. Simple just means no big surprises in key and tempo changes.

If you're struggling to come up with music and you've got to track 8 on an album and you're ready for the loony bin, get videos from YouTube or iPlayers etc and cut out the music and dialogue and write to what's left.

Music editors usually work fast. They've heard it all before a million times. They don't want clever ass musicians to make their lives complicated because they think they're Beethoven.

Good list from Chill there. Well worth digesting and and understanding.

Chill will now discuss 30 and 60 second edits, stingers et al.


----------



## Dietz (Nov 8, 2016)

David Donaldson said:


> [...]
> And another classic form the same guy.
> "There's an instrument in there I don't like"
> Us
> ...



A scene I witnessed as a mixing engineer during the final approval session for a quite dancy, decisively four-on-the-floor based title track:

Agency lady (in the role of The Producer): "I like it. But there's a strange 'bloop, bloop' I want to get rid of".
Composer (bemused): "What exactly do you mean by 'bloop, bloop'?"
Agency lady: "It's all over the place, actually."
Composer (asks me to mute one track after the other on the console).
Agency lady: "It's still there."
Composer (quite nervously asks me to mute even more tracks. Finally, only the four-on-the-floor remains, completely naked).
Agency lady (delighted): "Yes! That's the 'bloop, bloop' I'm talking about!"
Composer (who would have sold his grandma by now, just to get this job finished) in a scratchy voice: "No. NO! NO!!!! *This* will stay as it is."


----------



## pixel (Nov 8, 2016)

Heh. I thought that it's all about making good job together but I see that it's all about laziness of composers. Because how to explain it differently if composer need to trick producer instead of trying to cooperate to create great sounding track? For me it's garbage. Why not trick whole world and compose in Music Maker with premade sequence loops like some of 'composers' do?

EDIT: I mean competent producers of course


----------



## chillbot (Nov 8, 2016)

pixel said:


> Heh. I thought that it's all about making good job together but I see that it's all about laziness of composers. Because how to explain it differently if composer need to trick producer instead of trying to cooperate to create great sounding track? For me it's garbage. Why not trick whole world and compose in Music Maker with premade sequence loops like some of 'composers' do?



I understand your view. To that I would add:

There is an amazing joy in working with an intelligent and knowledgeable producer or director that understands the role of the composer and either A) allows you to do what you do best or B) makes you even better at what you do. Unfortunately this is not always (rarely) the case. I may sound cynical but I prefer to think of myself as a realist. In Los Angeles and specifically in television there is an overwhelming amount of politics involved and when politics trump creativity you may find yourself in the situation of trying to do your job for a person who cares less about "making good job together" (as you put it) and more about making a name for him/herself even at the expense of the final product. These are not tricks of laziness or getting out of doing the work they are tricks to help you do your job better despite the incompetence of others. That may sound arrogant... I would back it up with a number of real-life stories and situations but this city is too small for that. I would never consider *all* producers to be this way and I would never go into a job with this attitude but it does happen. I also find that these specific "me-first" producers do not make it very far even at times getting booted from the job by someone higher up. There is still reason to be an optimist.

Also this thread evolved into ways to make your library music stand out (more specifically: get used) in a sea of tens of thousands of other tracks, which is just good business.


----------



## pixel (Nov 8, 2016)

Thats why I did edit 'I mean competent producers of course' in my post later


----------



## Baron Greuner (Nov 8, 2016)

Pixel what sort of music do you write and who's it aimed at?


----------



## jsmithsebasto (Nov 8, 2016)

Fun read! Definitely guilty of a couple of these.
I may have to try the ones I hadn't previously considered.


----------



## NoamL (Nov 25, 2018)

A really fun read. Thanks 

I've definitely done the "temp track up a minor 2nd" trick a few times. In fact, in doing some transcribing/research, I found a SUSPICIOUS number of trailer tracks that were written in either Abm or Bbm....  just a step up from the common keys of Gm and Am.... Abm in particular seems like a key nobody would write in except to "beat" a Gm track.

I agree, working with a producer who knows their strengths and limitations can be liberating and fun.

For the very first set of notes I try to put aside my ego as much as possible. Not just a producer, I think even a rando person off the street, if given the music to picture and asked to listen critically, could give good notes on a first pass of music. Just the fact that they are listening for music/dramatic function and not thinking about theory or mix like we are; that they're listening the first time and not the 400th time; those are some big factors that keep me, at least, from having objectivity about something I've just finished. I've very rarely received a note like "it doesn't build enough here" or "this is too slow / too fast for the picture" that didn't turn out to be completely correct once I swallowed my ego. It's also why I really like to have someone else's ears on a big piece before I turn it in.


----------



## LamaRose (Nov 25, 2018)

Great thread. My only input:


----------



## chillbot (Nov 26, 2018)

I miss Baron.


----------



## chillbot (Nov 26, 2018)

NoamL said:


> I found a SUSPICIOUS number of trailer tracks that were written in either Abm or Bbm...


I love these keys for tension because of utilizing the low notes on the piano, I use them all the time. Ivory, which is my main piano out of a dozen I love, goes down to F or F# below the keys, I forget which. F# and G are a bit muddy but the low Ab (just below low A on a piano) sound so fantastic. And A and Bb aren't too shabby either. For the same reason you'd choose E or Eb if you wanted to utilize the low notes on an electric bass or maybe C# or D if you were doing a grungy detuned guitar thing...

On a side note, when I am working on a batch of 100 tracks I make sure I have exactly 8 tracks (minimum) in each of the 12 keys. Just keeps things interesting and a bit less repetitive.


----------



## clisma (Nov 26, 2018)

NoamL said:


> I've definitely done the "temp track up a minor 2nd" trick a few times. In fact, in doing some transcribing/research, I found a SUSPICIOUS number of trailer tracks that were written in either Abm or Bbm....  just a step up from the common keys of Gm and Am.... Abm in particular seems like a key nobody would write in except to "beat" a Gm track.


I write in G#m and other “esoteric” keys all the time simply to keep my skills, theoretical and practicals, alive. It’s fun. The only issue is when the track gets unexpectedly chosen to have live orchestra on it... poor players.


----------



## reddognoyz (Nov 26, 2018)

The idea of scoring up a half step from the temp track is pretty genius.


----------

