# Camel Audio is shutting Up Shop :(



## PJMorgan (Jan 7, 2015)

:( 

A bit devastated at this, I love Alchemy & use it & Camel phat in almost every project. I was really looking forward to Alchemy version 2.

This is the bleak message your greated with when you login to their site:

*January 8, 2015

We would like to thank you for the support we've received over the years in our efforts to create instruments and effects plug-ins and sound libraries.

Camel Audio's plug-ins, Alchemy Mobile IAPs and sound libraries are no longer available for purchase. We will continue to provide downloads of your previous purchases and email support until July 7, 2015. We recommend you download all of your purchases and back them up so that you can continue to use them (Instructions: How to Download and Backup Your Products).*

I was wondering why things were so quiet lately on their forum at kvr, well now we know.... :(


----------



## Astronaut FX (Jan 7, 2015)

I really hate to see that. I hope at least it was a decision they made because they wanted to and not because they weren't making it for some reason outside of their control.


----------



## PJMorgan (Jan 7, 2015)

Yes it's a real shame, great products & one of the best for customer support too. Camel Audio will definitely be missed.


----------



## José Herring (Jan 7, 2015)

Wow! Alchemy has become my favorite weapon of choice. I can't live without it. No further updates is devastating to me. There's nothing to replace it. 

I guess I'll have to keep a computer dedicated to just running Alchemy.


----------



## Mike Greene (Jan 7, 2015)

I'm so sorry to hear this. I love this company. Alchemy and Camel Phat are amongst my favorite purchases. Great guys, too.


----------



## José Herring (Jan 7, 2015)

I'm seriously panicking. Look for a replacement. Has anybody used this thing? 

http://www.linplug.com/crx4.html


----------



## jtenney (Jan 7, 2015)

Wow. That's a blow, all right... One of the best products on the market. I'm glad I bought a lot of their extra libraries over the years. I wish them well.


----------



## Mystic (Jan 7, 2015)

josejherring @ Thu Jan 08 said:


> I'm seriously panicking. Look for a replacement.


Why look already? Not like it will stop working in July and I'm sure many people will continue to develop presets for it. Yah it sucks, but you can keep it in your arsenal and use it daily without worry about replacing it for a while.


----------



## FarleyCZ (Jan 7, 2015)

That is some seriously bad news! Damn... :(


----------



## constaneum (Jan 7, 2015)

Sigh.....I'm a happy owner and user of Alchemy products. It's one of the best out in the market. Really ashamed that it's closing down. Wonder what's the reason. T_T sad indeed .....


----------



## José Herring (Jan 7, 2015)

Mystic @ Wed Jan 07 said:


> josejherring @ Thu Jan 08 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm seriously panicking. Look for a replacement.
> ...



Had bad luck in the past. I had a product called Krishna by a company called Devine Machine. They went out of business, closed up shop. I went 64bit and Krishna stopped working. So It was either build a 32 bit machine dedicated to Krishna or use it in VEPro. Either way it was a pain and anything that's a pain just stops being used. I just like to pull up my synths in Cubase on an instrument track. 

With Windows 10 around the corner, I'm going to build myself a new machine. There's no guarantee that Alchemy will be Windows 10 compatible. I hope that it is.


----------



## marcotronic (Jan 8, 2015)

WTF??? I really wasn't expecting this! Wow, think of the poor guys that bought Alchemy and stuff just before last year's end?! 

Their software really had a lot of potential!

Marco


----------



## Guy Rowland (Jan 8, 2015)

Very surprising, eh? No-one seems to have a clue what's happened. There is a some speculation they might have been bought Redmatica style, just to shut down. Very odd. I think their iOS stuff was successful too... all very strange.


----------



## jcrosby (Jan 8, 2015)

Guy Rowland @ Thu Jan 08 said:


> Very surprising, eh? No-one seems to have a clue what's happened. There is a some speculation they might have been bought Redmatica style, just to shut down. Very odd. I think their iOS stuff was successful too... all very strange.



Ooof. Huge bummer. Although they had a small catalog they made fantastic software. 

If that speculation were true it would be tragic. I worked for an iOS music startup a few years back and it ended in a nauseating way. :evil:


----------



## G.R. Baumann (Jan 8, 2015)

When I read this, at first I had hoped that their site was hacked, then I visited their own support forum on KVR and the message is there too, strangely though, there was one thread about it and it was locked by Camel Audio after the 4th post, in deed the entire Camel Audio Forum is now locked!

Very strange of Ben to allow for such total intransparency!

If they were bought by a bigger fish, which I still hope to some degree, then may be Alchemy won't be dead in the water and further development can take place.

What I also find very odd is the statement that no further purchases can be made. This does not make sense, I for one own Alchemy and do not have all of their sound banks. I am sure there are others who would appreciate a buy out offer for the total of soundbanks available.

I would hope that Ben comes out and explains the situation.

P.S. Hmm, based on the "no further purchases" info, I was considering that the new VAT EU laws might be a contributer to their situation. Then again, why would Ben not openly say that?


----------



## Biome_Digital (Jan 8, 2015)

It's strange.


----------



## G.R. Baumann (Jan 8, 2015)

Hmm, the closure post oin KVR was made by "Ugo" from Leesburg, VA/USA who has this website in his profile:

http://www.ugoaudio.com


----------



## jcrosby (Jan 8, 2015)

Wow, if the thread was locked after 4 comments that does sound like the kind of strange circumstances that take place when one company (may have been) put out of business by another. Sounds like it could have been locked for legal reasons... (Total speculation of course... sad either way.)


----------



## AC986 (Jan 8, 2015)

Might be to do with the VAT thing.


----------



## Harry (Jan 8, 2015)

I thought Alchemy 2 was about to be released. So its odd timing.


----------



## lux (Jan 8, 2015)

I'm a good fan for their products, included the latest mobile stuff. Simple and effective.

really hope it'is something related to being acquired by a bigger brand and not just a shutdown.


----------



## Astronaut FX (Jan 8, 2015)

Well, if they were bought out by someone else, someone with the purchasing muscle and business savvy to have them keep quiet about it, Native Instruments immediately comes to mind. Just speculation obviously, but seems like a possible scenario.

I actually hope that's what happened. I hope the Camel folks got buckets of cash, and we'll see rebranded Native Instruments products still available and supported.


----------



## AC986 (Jan 8, 2015)

Tone Deaf @ Thu Jan 08 said:


> Well, if they were bought out by someone else, someone with the purchasing muscle and business savvy to have them keep quiet about it, Native Instruments immediately comes to mind. Just speculation obviously, but seems like a possible scenario.



Good idea. With a synth engine like that, I can't believe it's just going to go to waste.


----------



## Dryden.Chambers (Jan 8, 2015)

Shocking news really.

As for alternatives I have always liked Absynth slightly more.


----------



## Andrew Goodwin (Jan 8, 2015)

bummer, I was just installing Alchemy on my new computer yesterday. Must be a buyout or legal if they aren't having a going out of business sale. Time to really backup those files


----------



## bbunker (Jan 8, 2015)

Just a little rumor debunking to be done -

"Ugo" is the artist name of Chris Sciurba, who provides "external communications services" for Camel Audio. Presumably releasing this kind of information would fall under that heading.

Got that information from the about page on his website, the one listed with the communique about the closure:

http://www.ugoaudio.com/index.php/about

As for the actual news: Ugh. It's baffling, since Alchemy was/is so good. Is there that much piracy, or overhead, or something else that would bring down such an epic ship? Ugh.


----------



## Dietz (Jan 8, 2015)

bbunker @ Thu Jan 08 said:


> [...] Is there *that much piracy*, or overhead, or something else that would bring down such an epic ship? Ugh.


I wouldn't be surprised if piracy issues were one of the main reasons.


----------



## PJMorgan (Jan 8, 2015)

There's a lot of speculation going on over on the KVR forum, it's already at 28 pages & climbing.

Most there seem to think it was a buy out....I don't know, hopefully we'll get some more concrete news soon.

It's pity because a few of the sound designers who were working on sounds for Alchemy v2 have already come out & said it was going to be something special & wasn't too far off from release, they're totally shocked at the news.


----------



## Guy Rowland (Jan 8, 2015)

PJMorgan @ Thu Jan 08 said:


> It's pity because a few of the sound designers who were working on sounds for Alchemy v2 have already come out & said it was going to be something special & wasn't to far off from release, they're totally shocked at the news.



Wonder if they've been paid?


----------



## m-tron (Jan 8, 2015)

this sucks. hopefully their products will survive for a while - i've been using their stuff for years. even though it's free, camelcrusher is my main go-to for quickly adding harmonic content to a thin-sounding instrument, or for completely nuking a drum bus.


----------



## PJMorgan (Jan 8, 2015)

Guy Rowland @ 8th January 2015 said:


> Wonder if they've been paid?



I couldn't tell to you. I was really looking forward to Alchemy 2, I'm seriously considering getting Omnisphere now. I just never felt the need to get it because a was more than happy with Alchemy for the Hybrid synth/sampling side of things.

I know Alchemy should still work for a while but how long? I'd rather be using a synth that has on going support from the developers rather than use away at Alchemy until the day it just won't load anymore & a sad day that'll be :(


----------



## Pingu (Jan 8, 2015)

Really sucks - I always intended to buy the last couple of bits I hadn't got. Very glad Alchemy went 64 bit - should be ok for a little while.


----------



## marcotronic (Jan 8, 2015)

This makes me even more hope for a 2015 update (or even a new product by Spectrasonics) to Omnisphere with the option to use own samples...


----------



## AC986 (Jan 8, 2015)

PJMorgan @ Thu Jan 08 said:


> Guy Rowland @ 8th January 2015 said:
> 
> 
> > Wonder if they've been paid?
> ...



You should have Omnisphere anyway. The other choice for a lot of people will probably be Zebra. The problem for Alchemy users now will be updates and OS changes.


----------



## StatKsn (Jan 8, 2015)

josejherring @ Wed Jan 07 said:


> Had bad luck in the past. I had a product called Krishna by a company called Devine Machine. They went out of business, closed up shop. I went 64bit and Krishna stopped working. So It was either build a 32 bit machine dedicated to Krishna or use it in VEPro. Either way it was a pain and anything that's a pain just stops being used. I just like to pull up my synths in Cubase on an instrument track.



Does jBridge work on Camel Audio plugins?


----------



## Astronaut FX (Jan 8, 2015)

Tone Deaf @ Thu Jan 08 said:


> Well, if they were bought out by someone else, someone with the purchasing muscle and business savvy to have them keep quiet about it, Native Instruments immediately comes to mind. Just speculation obviously, but seems like a possible scenario.
> 
> I actually hope that's what happened. I hope the Camel folks got buckets of cash, and we'll see rebranded Native Instruments products still available and supported.




The more I think about this, the more it makes sense...

Alkemy
Kamel Krusher
Kamel Space


:mrgreen:


----------



## PJMorgan (Jan 8, 2015)

Tone Deaf @ 8th January 2015 said:


> The more I think about this, the more it makes sense...
> 
> Alkemy
> Kamel Krusher
> ...



You might be on to something there. :D


----------



## kb123 (Jan 8, 2015)

Kore had very similar morphing capabilities to Alchemy, and the Camel boys were involved in a few of its sound packs if I remember correctly, so its not beyond the bounds of possibility for sure.


----------



## JPQ (Jan 8, 2015)

Sad news becouse their synth i think called alchemy is one which i first disliked and started like later i cannot get it now.:( but i of course dont really need more softsynths but still.


----------



## José Herring (Jan 8, 2015)

StatKsn @ Thu Jan 08 said:


> josejherring @ Wed Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Had bad luck in the past. I had a product called Krishna by a company called Devine Machine. They went out of business, closed up shop. I went 64bit and Krishna stopped working. So It was either build a 32 bit machine dedicated to Krishna or use it in VEPro. Either way it was a pain and anything that's a pain just stops being used. I just like to pull up my synths in Cubase on an instrument track.
> ...



I would never use bridge type software. I just don't trust it enough.


----------



## wesbender (Jan 8, 2015)

josejherring @ Thu Jan 08 said:


> I would never use bridge type software. I just don't trust it enough.



I don't think I've had a single jBridge-related crash in the years that I've been using it.

Cubase, Kontakt, PLAY, etc. on the other hand....


----------



## José Herring (Jan 8, 2015)

Never said jbridge won't work. I would just never trust it. My system doesn't crash (unless I try and make it crash). So I just stick to my stable setup which doesn't include any bridge type software.


----------



## Guy Rowland (Jan 8, 2015)

This was posted in the Propellerheads forum from a friend apparently:



> Well, guess it doesn't matter now, I'll name it, Ben was in talks with Apple last year about a buy out but as far as I was aware a deal could not be agreed.
> May be they came back with a better offer?


----------



## José Herring (Jan 8, 2015)

Guy Rowland @ Thu Jan 08 said:


> This was posted in the Propellerheads forum from a friend apparently:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If true, it would mean the kiss of death for all of his software. Which would make sense as then it would become proprietary to Apple and they'd cease to make it available. Sort of like Keymap.

Apple has become what they initially fought against in the beginning. Funny how that happens.


----------



## kj.metissage (Jan 8, 2015)

On KVR there are talks about Camel Audio being bought by another company.

This could be it.

Maybe an announcement at NAMM ?


----------



## paulmatthew (Jan 8, 2015)

Camel Audio's demise may become a leg up for the sales of Motu Mach Five 3 and Steinberg's Pad Shop Pro , at least from a granular synthesis perspective. I know there are other options out there too , but I see no reason for current owners not to continue using Alchemy . Use it until you cannot anymore. 

Sylenth1 has not been updated for Mac forever and I'm running it just fine in 64bit thanks to Sound Radix's 32 lives. Yes it's sad about Camel Audio going out of business , but it's not the end of their products being used , is it? Keep Calm and Carry On as they say across the pond.


----------



## kitekrazy (Jan 8, 2015)

paulmatthew @ Thu Jan 08 said:


> Camel Audio's demise may become a leg up for the sales of Motu Mach Five 3 and Steinberg's Pad Shop Pro , at least from a granular synthesis perspective. I know there are other options out there too , but I see no reason for current owners not to continue using Alchemy . Use it until you cannot anymore.
> 
> Sylenth1 has not been updated for Mac forever and I'm running it just fine in 64bit thanks to Sound Radix's 32 lives. Yes it's sad about Camel Audio going out of business , but it's not the end of their products being used , is it? Keep Calm and Carry On as they say across the pond.



Some of the 3rd party stuff that came with Sonar still works. I know people who still use those Sonic Timeworks plugins that can with Sonar 2.2.
I still have VSampler installed.

I think Tascam's GVI will still work.

I have Alchemy and haven't really used it yet. I didn't want to use it as a rompler but make my own creations.


----------



## kitekrazy (Jan 8, 2015)

josejherring @ Wed Jan 07 said:


> I'm seriously panicking. Look for a replacement. Has anybody used this thing?
> 
> http://www.linplug.com/crx4.html



I'm thinking Reaktor may be a suitable replacement. I should spend more time learning how to use it.


----------



## macteacher (Jan 8, 2015)

that kind of abruptness without explanation sounds like an aqui-hire or a legal issue, or both. 

Expect the products to re-emerge in a new wrapper I bet.


----------



## dpasdernick (Jan 8, 2015)

Alchemy is my favorite soft-synth. It's been quiet on Cameaudio.com for quite a while so I thought they we're on the cusp of releasing Alchemy 2. Man, I am totally bummed out. Even if they get bought it's rare that the heart of the product and company remain intact. I'm so glad I got Iceland, Luftrum and Steamworks and others. 

I would assume if they were calling it quits they would have had some sort of fire sale just to cash out. even if Ben was sick of typing the 1's and 0's he could have kept the site going forever and still made a few bucks. 

It must be a merger or sell off. If so, I hope someone with heart and vision buys them. I want to buy some more of the expansion packs at the very least...


----------



## FarleyCZ (Jan 8, 2015)

Talking about Luftrum, I've spotted his post in initial panic stages of KVR's huge thread. He said he knew nothing about what's happening and that it's wierd that he "cannot even access backend for sound designers". 

Whatever happened, it had to be quite quick and unexpected. If they were bought, there is no reason to not announce by whom. ...I just really hope they're well. Not a single word from them, it's wierd. :/


----------



## 667 (Jan 8, 2015)

Love Alchemy and bought a lot of sound packs. Even reported a bug and got a free one once! 

Very sad if they don't come back. They were doing very unique sound sets, more sample-synthetic and less acoustic-realism. Loved em.


----------



## Guido Negraszus (Jan 8, 2015)

Mmh, a surprise yes and the same time no. I love Alchemy and Camel Space and have most soundsets too. But I often wonder how long a developer can survive with just ONE core product? I have no idea how many units they sell but I imagine that as a developer you need to regular come up with new products to keep the ball rolling. It's the same with Spectrasonics. I mean they have bills to pay, wages and so on and yet they haven't released anything new since 2009. Like I said, I have no idea but maybe they sell a lot more than I imagine.


----------



## kitekrazy (Jan 10, 2015)

BTW I don;t think I have an activation key. It was an online login. What happens after July?


----------



## Daniel James (Jan 10, 2015)

Imagine if they were being rolled into Omnisphere 2 xD Minds would be blown.

-DJ


----------



## PJMorgan (Jan 10, 2015)

kitekrazy @ 10th January 2015 said:


> BTW I don;t think I have an activation key. It was an online login. What happens after July?



I'm pretty sure all your details are embedded/watermarked with the plugin, so no need for an activation key. After July you just have to be doubly sure you have all installers & sounds backed up because once they're gone they're gone. And also hope Alchemy & other CA plugins continue working when you upgrade your OS or......never upgrade again.




Daniel James @ 10th January 2015 said:


> Imagine if they were being rolled into Omnisphere 2 xD Minds would be blown.
> 
> -DJ



*IF* the CA crew end up working with Spectrasonic on some kind of ultimate Omnisphere/Alchemy hybrid I definitely wouldn't complain about that. We'll just have to wait & see what (if anything) comes next.


----------



## mscottweber (Jan 10, 2015)

Daniel James @ Sat Jan 10 said:


> Imagine if they were being rolled into Omnisphere 2 xD Minds would be blown.
> 
> -DJ



I'm gonna start saving up now, just in case this happens!


----------



## FarleyCZ (Jan 10, 2015)

I like that idea. Guys in Spectrasonics have tons of sample material, but the player ... Alchemy would make much better one. I'm starting to desperately hope that is the case! :D


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 10, 2015)

In ten years there is only one sample lib developer, yeah, the company what had the most money.... . 

The same in all other market places.... .

Isn't our money system shit?


----------



## José Herring (Jan 10, 2015)

FarleyCZ @ Sat Jan 10 said:


> I like that idea. Guys in Spectrasonics have tons of sample material, but the player ... Alchemy would make much better one. I'm starting to desperately hope that is the case! :D



It would be cool, but I honestly don't think that Eric P. is going to give up his steam engine for the Alchemy engine.


----------



## mk282 (Jan 11, 2015)

Who said anything about giving up? Merging, merging.


----------



## Guy Rowland (Jan 11, 2015)

FarleyCZ @ Sat Jan 10 said:


> I like that idea. Guys in Spectrasonics have tons of sample material, but the player ... Alchemy would make much better one. I'm starting to desperately hope that is the case! :D



I think that's stupendously unlikely, but stranger things have happened I guess. I never got on with Alchemy personally, always far far preferred the UI in Omnisphere. And Spectrasonics are no slouches at the whole synthesis thing, I can't imagine they need anything from anyone else to be honest. Several more years cooking up stuff on their own is easily mouthwatering enough.

I'm anticipating new synthesis options in this next version of Omni (Wavetable? More expanded FM and granular?), alongside more browser tweaks - and the browser is already miles better than everyone else's, that's just based on Eric's comments in the past. And an UNDO BUTTON  Doubt they'll go for sample import, but happy to be proved wrong.

11 sleeps til NAMM....


----------



## Echoes in the Attic (Jan 11, 2015)

Guy Rowland @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> I think that's stupendously unlikely, but stranger things have happened I guess. I never got on with Alchemy personally, always far far preferred the UI in Omnisphere. And Spectrasonics are no slouches at the whole synthesis thing, I can't imagine they need anything from anyone else to be honest. Several more years cooking up stuff on their own is easily mouthwatering enough.



I think it's unlikely Spectrasonics bought Camel too. But not because I think Omni's synthesis capabilities are anywhere near Alchemy on it's own though. Alchemy has additive, spectral and proper granular resynthesis with sample import, including multi-samples with sfz. Even sample import would be a big job for Omnisphere. Additive and spectral with all the complex editing functions that comes with it? Forget it. I love Omni but it's synthesis capabilities are so much more basic.



Guy Rowland @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> I'm anticipating new synthesis options in this next version of Omni (Wavetable? More expanded FM and granular?), alongside more browser tweaks - and the browser is already miles better than everyone else's, that's just based on Eric's comments in the past. And an UNDO BUTTON  Doubt they'll go for sample import, but happy to be proved wrong.



Hopefully it's finally time for sample import. And I'm also hoping that the reason they waited so long on the browser update is because they are including so many more presets that include new sample content or new ways of manipulating samples, that have to come with a major update.


----------



## Echoes in the Attic (Jan 11, 2015)

..If I had to guess though I'd say I think someone bigger bought them, like Roland or Cakewalk/Gibson.

I really hope it's not Apple as that is a death blow to not only PC users but also Apple users who don't like AU.


----------



## José Herring (Jan 11, 2015)

Gibson would be just as bad as Apple. I'll never forgive Gibson for what they did to Opcode.

As for Spectrasonics buying Camel Audio, I just can't see that. 

I honestly fear the worst and that it's just the end of Alchemy and Camel Audio just closed shop, for whatever reason, they aren't disclosing why.

But, I did find an Alchemy replacement. Linplug has something similar and now that Alchemy is gone, they may just rise to the occasion. Linplugs sample manipulation synth actually sounds a bit better though it doesn't look that intuitive.

http://www.linplug.com/crx4.html


----------



## Guy Rowland (Jan 11, 2015)

Echoes in the Attic @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> I think it's unlikely Spectrasonics bought Camel too. But not because I think Omni's synthesis capabilities are anywhere near Alchemy on it's own though. Alchemy has additive, spectral and proper granular resynthesis with sample import, including multi-samples with sfz. Even sample import would be a big job for Omnisphere. Additive and spectral with all the complex editing functions that comes with it? Forget it. I love Omni but it's synthesis capabilities are so much more basic..



And yet (I'll get flamed for this) Omni always sounded better. And the patches of far higher and consistent quality. Many times I tried Alchemy, and always came away underwhelmed. If I was majorly into sound design I'd look at it differently perhaps.

The focus of Omni 1 (as I'm already calling it) were the soundsources and a solid VA engine. Where do they go next? I find myself hoping more for those new synthesis tricks rather than soundsources. In its first couple of years it added a lot of synthesis capability, but not so much in the last three or so. Just imagine what they could have been plotting (conceding all the development may have occurred elsewhere).

Sorry, this is all tangential, but there's not so much to say about Camel's demise with so few facts to go on. It's a salutary reminder though that soft synths will always be vulnerable in a way hardware is not - dependent on ongoing OS support, not to mention any complications with licensing and copy protection if a developer vanishes for whatever reason.


----------



## Vin (Jan 11, 2015)

Guy Rowland @ 11/1/2015 said:


> And yet (I'll get flamed for this) Omni always sounded better. And the patches of far higher and consistent quality.



It's true. Omnisphere is more intuitive and sound (and preset) quality is better, while Alchemy's creative possibilities and sample import and many synthesis types are its strength. My main feature request for Alchemy 2 was the improvement in sound quality.


----------



## José Herring (Jan 11, 2015)

Alchemy is only as good as the sound you put into it. 

The comparison between Omni and Alchemy is unfair. Vastly different beasts. 

Anybody that relied on the soundbanks for Alchemy was missing the point. The point being that you can start from nothing and create your own unique sound.


----------



## lee (Jan 11, 2015)

josejherring @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> http://www.linplug.com/crx4.html



Very nice sound indeed! Just listening to the second demo: http://www.linplug.de/mp3/CronoX3/LinPl ... OXYGEN.mp3 Funky!!!
Thanx for the heads up.


----------



## dpasdernick (Jan 11, 2015)

lee @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> josejherring @ Sun Jan 11 said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.linplug.com/crx4.html
> ...



I have CronoX3 and use it quite a bit. The expansion packs for it (Sophistry, etc) were really nice to. Plus Peter at LinPlug is a super great guy.

I hope like heck that Apple did not buy out Camel Audio. Nothing good will come of that.


----------



## José Herring (Jan 11, 2015)

Why did you not upgrade to crx4? Is there something in X3 that you can't live without that's not in the X4?


----------



## Echoes in the Attic (Jan 11, 2015)

josejherring @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> Alchemy is only as good as the sound you put into it.
> 
> The comparison between Omni and Alchemy is unfair. Vastly different beasts.


Yes of course. I'd never pick one over the other. I love them both for different reasons. But I was just comparing the synthesis capabilities, where Alchemy comes out far far ahead. I personally prefer the sound library and presets in Omnisphere to Alchemy, as well as Omnisphere's filters. Preset, sound sources and filters are a lot of what give people their idea of sound quality or preference overall for a synth. Not unfair to compare the synthesis capabilities of the two though.




josejherring @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> Anybody that relied on the soundbanks for Alchemy was missing the point. The point being that you can start from nothing and create your own unique sound.


Totally. In many different ways. Completely DSP based or totally sample based from your own sounds or mixed.


----------



## dpasdernick (Jan 11, 2015)

josejherring @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> Why did you not upgrade to crx4? Is there something in X3 that you can't live without that's not in the X4?



Jose,

It was mentioned that some of the CronoX3 patches would not work in CronoX4. I downloaded the demo of 4 and never got around to upgrading. It's on my list. 

Darren


----------



## PJMorgan (Jan 13, 2015)

Well it's looking more likely to be an Apple Buyout now.

This was tweeted by Chris Randall from Audio Damage:

_*"People I trust implicitly have told me that Camel was purchased by you-know-who, and will be rolled in to That Which Shall Not Be Named."*_

He goes on to mention in a reply to a question of who? _"Think Redmatica"_ who were bought out by Apple. There's also mention of an 8 figure cheque...who wouldn't jump on that?

I'm a Logic user & if Alchemy is going to be exclusive to Logic/OSX, I still feel really sorry for those on Windows that will have to do without CA's lineup. Hell there's nothing to say I won't end up going back to windows myself someday (but more than happy with Mac for now)

This is of course still speculation until we get some kind of official word from Camel Audio.


----------



## José Herring (Jan 13, 2015)

If apple is interested at all it would be for ios and not the Mac. Sadly.


----------



## PJMorgan (Jan 13, 2015)

josejherring @ 13th January 2015 said:


> If apple is interested at all it would be for ios and not the Mac. Sadly.



What makes you say that? I'm not saying your wrong but I find it very doubtful that Apple are going to buy out a company with the talents of the CA crew just to develop apps exclusively for IOS. Yes possibly for both platforms which would be understandable as CA have already done this.


----------



## Guy Rowland (Jan 13, 2015)

PJMorgan @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> josejherring @ 13th January 2015 said:
> 
> 
> > If apple is interested at all it would be for ios and not the Mac. Sadly.
> ...



I suspect that one direction Apple will go in is to further integrate and blur the lines between iOS products and Mac. If you had a synth of real quality that was useable in iOS and could be loaded right into the desktop version, I could see how that might appealing strategically for a company like Apple.

One thing under-discussed here (!) is how music-making is becoming ever more mobile. I recently bought Cubasis, partly because of the attraction of starting a sketch anywhere I am with an iPad, then importing it into the real thing. Not impressed, incidentally, important workflow stuff isn't right in Cubasis - still work to do before I'd fancy using it really, its too much of a PITA as it is. It emphasised the importance to me of getting the details right though, and if Camel are well advanced in making stuff cross-platform then that would be a major draw.


----------



## Wes Antczak (Jan 13, 2015)

I suspect that we will be seeing more and more mobile oriented offerings/enhancemements at the coming NAMM show. 

I like the idea of being able to import into your main daw for further work.


----------



## José Herring (Jan 13, 2015)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> PJMorgan @ Tue Jan 13 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ 13th January 2015 said:
> ...



I wish I shared your optimism! 

What I see as happening is that the pro market ever tempted by the IOS mass market is dumbing down their products to make it run and be appealing to the novice. As this happens it becomes less and less viable for a company like CA to go the pro route. How many future companies will take the time to fully develop software instead of creating some easy to use crap for IOS? Not many.

Keymap prime example. It's dead and buried. There's hope that it will somehow show up in Logic, but imo that's just not going to happen. Same with Alchemy, there's hope that it will be a Mac thing. I might even buy a mac if that's the case, but truth is they'll wrap it up in some IOS thingy and that will be the end of it.

Being mostly PC based I'll look for alternatives. But I feel in the future that people will start making plugins with IOS in mind first.


----------



## Echoes in the Attic (Jan 13, 2015)

Even though I use a Mac I consider an Apple buyout to be a loss of Alchemy to both Apple and PC users, since the VST will surely be no more. Can you imagine - The best sample resynthesizer and the best physical modeling synth both locked inside Logic. Bastards.

Very sad for Apple and PC users alike. Well at least Harmor has come to the mac (almost).


----------



## José Herring (Jan 13, 2015)

Once when I was an idealistic young man, I was trying to understand the actions of a particular women I had gotten to know. I was puzzled by her actions. An experienced older man looked at my bewilderment and uttered the following phrase I will never forget, "follow the money trail". Once I looked at her actions from a financial standpoint then all her actions made perfect sense.

Follow the money trail here. Where's the money for Apple. It ain't in a few hundred would be composers that want the full benefit of a fully featured app. It's not in making IOS apps cross compatible with the few Mac Pro users. It's in the 100 millions almost billion IOS users that want to push a button and go "ooooo".


----------



## Guy Rowland (Jan 13, 2015)

josejherring @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> Once when I was an idealistic young man, I was trying to understand the actions of a particular women I had gotten to know. I was puzzled by her actions. An experienced older man looked at my bewilderment and uttered the following phrase I will never forget, "follow the money trail". Once I looked at her actions from a financial standpoint then all her actions made perfect sense.
> 
> Follow the money trail here. Where's the money for Apple. It ain't in a few hundred would be composers that want the full benefit of a fully featured app. It's not in making IOS apps cross compatible with the few Mac Pro users. It's in the 100 millions almost billion IOS users that want to push a button and go "ooooo".



I can buy that (with all due sadness), but I still don't get Redmatica. Maybe if I understood that, I might understand this better. I can't see that they were a threat to Apple, and I can't see that Apple were interested in their tech for shiny new things. Why did they acquire them?


----------



## 667 (Jan 13, 2015)

You know, now that I think about it, I think I still has some credits left in their shop. :-(


----------



## dinerdog (Jan 13, 2015)

I'm going to venture a guess with Apple and Redmatica, in that it might not even be something we're remotely thinking about. More than just making sampler patches better, or buying up the competition.

I wouldn't be surprised (not knowing Apple) if it wasn't even for Logic and that the technology was going to be repurposed in a totally different way that may be much more futuristic than we are imagining.


----------



## jcrosby (Jan 13, 2015)

josejherring @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> I wish I shared your optimism!
> 
> What I see as happening is that the pro market ever tempted by the IOS mass market is dumbing down their products to make it run and be appealing to the novice. As this happens it becomes less and less viable for a company like CA to go the pro route. How many future companies will take the time to fully develop software instead of creating some easy to use crap for IOS? Not many.
> 
> ...



Agreed, however this phenomena will not be limited to iOS. If you look at where MS is heading currently, they are going down the same road. Previews of Windows 10 indicate it will have the same type of deep mobile integration iOS has with OSX.

Considering how Logic has changed dramatically in only one version I don't see it boding particularly well for either platform in the long haul :-/ There isn't a week that goes by where I don't wonder what the future of the DAW will be in 5 years time. Sadly I don't have high hopes...


----------



## PJMorgan (Jan 13, 2015)

jcrosby @ 13th January 2015 said:


> Agreed, however this phenomena will not be limited to iOS. If you look at where MS is heading currently, they are going down the same road. Previews of Windows 10 indicate it will have the same type of deep mobile integration iOS has with OSX.



Yes the gap between mobile devices & the desktop is getting smaller, If I wasn't making music & Graphic design I probably wouldn't have a desktop myself, it's much handier sitting nice & comfy on the sofa with my Laptop or iPad 

Also it's rumoured that apple are working on a large 12 inch iPad Pro which is also rumoured to possibly dual boot iOS & OS X. Well that makes the gap even smaller on the Apple side of things. Although Microsoft are definitely ahead in this regard with the Surface Pro.



jcrosby @ 13th January 2015 said:


> Considering how Logic has changed dramatically in only one version I don't see it boding particularly well for either platform in the long haul :-/ There isn't a week that goes by where I don't wonder what the future of the DAW will be in 5 years time. Sadly I don't have high hopes...



I don't really get what your saying about Logic though, it's IMO changed for the better. It's still a fully functional Pro DAW with some very nice features added that weren't in v9 & it hasn't been dumbed down as some would have you believe. The question is though will Apple ever dumb it down?....well it's always hard to tell with Apple what they're gonna be up to next :roll:

I really don't like the way they seem to be making it impossible to at least upgrade RAM, first the MBP then the smaller iMac & now the Mac Mini, all RAM is soldered in. Will the 27" iMac be next? If they do start doing this I'd seriously consider going back to PC, unless they stop charging sooooo much for RAM.


----------



## kitekrazy (Jan 13, 2015)

PJMorgan @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> jcrosby @ 13th January 2015 said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed, however this phenomena will not be limited to iOS. If you look at where MS is heading currently, they are going down the same road. Previews of Windows 10 indicate it will have the same type of deep mobile integration iOS has with OSX.
> ...



I'm not so sure. Unless you are connected to a "cloud" storage space is a big gap. Then all of the accessories can't be self powered either. I could use my iPad as a DAW but not without an electrical outlet. 

Some of these small devices when they are tricked out are quite pricey and are still no match for desktops. They are OK for noodling around but are not capable of serious production in audio or video.


----------



## Astronaut FX (Jan 13, 2015)

Maybe I'm naïve, but I'm not seeing the endgame benefit for Apple to have been the acquiring company. Unless Camel had developed some technology that Apple wanted to repurpose, I'm not seeing how acquiring Camel and simply incorporating Camel products into Logic would do much for them. _Maybe_ there would be some who would switch from their current DAW to Apple in order to benefit from included Camel products, but I would doubt many.

Native Instruments still seems a more likely scenario to me. The Camel products, particularly Alchemy, would seem to be natural fits to Native's current product line and would complement them quite well. My guess is that Komplete 10/Komplete 10 Ultimate was not that big of an upgrade for many using 9 and may not have sold tremendously well (I didn't see enough in 10 myself to upgrade yet). So being able to bundle the Camel products with the next upgrade might give them a nice shot in the arm.

Also, I can't really see Apple bothering with the selling of sound packs, whereas Native already has products with available sound packs (Maschine, Kontakt), which makes the Camel line up a good fit from that standpoint as well. A fresh coat of paint (skins) to make the applications all look a bit more like the current NI line up is all that it would take to integrate them. I just see that as a really natural fit.

Sure, it's all just speculation at this point, but I'm having a hard time seeing how Apple would come out ahead by acquiring Camel products just to bundle them with Logic. Logic is already reasonably priced, so I'm just not seeing the inclusion of Camel products doing much with sales. 

Either way, I certainly hope that whatever has transpired has been beneficial to the Camel folks, and that whatever the outcome, they'll still have some role in developing innovative, musically minded solutions for the rest of us to enjoy.


----------



## jcrosby (Jan 13, 2015)

PJMorgan @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> I don't really get what your saying about Logic though, it's IMO changed for the better. It's still a fully functional Pro DAW with some very nice features added that weren't in v9 & it hasn't been dumbed down as some would have you believe. The question is though will Apple ever dumb it down?....well it's always hard to tell with Apple what they're gonna be up to next :roll:
> 
> I really don't like the way they seem to be making it impossible to at least upgrade RAM, first the MBP then the smaller iMac & now the Mac Mini, all RAM is soldered in. Will the 27" iMac be next? If they do start doing this I'd seriously consider going back to PC, unless they stop charging sooooo much for RAM.



There's definitely some improvements to Logic in X, but the way they're beginning to dumb down the names of features suggests to me that they will continue to dumb it down further, and probably throw some "power user" features away in the future. I've used Logic for years so I reeeeeally hope I'm wrong! :(


----------



## Nathanael Iversen (Jan 13, 2015)

Re: Redmatica, I think that one makes perfect sense for Apple. They bought it for their own internal use. There are GB of samples that come with Garage Band and Logic. Just in time saved for their own product teams, they don't need to ever release it for it to make business sense for them.

Apple has $100B+ in cash. Spending low millions on a software tool is not even a board level concern - its just a purchase for a business unit.

Apple could probably make a small development shop very happy financially with what is to Apple much less than what they pay for office supplies every year. If Apple only wants the re-synthesis engine or just the additive bits, it makes sense to them if it accelerates some internal project by 9 months to a year. They will have no felt need to do anything else. They don't resell any other synths, so there is no business model for them to start. Unless it gets bundled in (which Redmatica never did), I would assume that it will never be heard from again - it will get built into something they are working on.

Also remember, synth developers are small business owners. If someone comes and offers a nice 7 figure sum for your years of sweat, worry and trouble, how many are going to turn down that buyout when it changes your life, likely forever? Many here would happily sell their last 5 years of catalog for low millions of dollars, yes?

Personally, I will continue to use it while I can, and be bummed when some system update breaks it. Great software, and very powerful. I will back up any core sounds as WAV samples as I go so I still have the output after the bits stop working.


----------



## Guy Rowland (Jan 14, 2015)

Nathanael Iversen @ Wed Jan 14 said:


> Re: Redmatica, I think that one makes perfect sense for Apple. They bought it for their own internal use. There are GB of samples that come with Garage Band and Logic. Just in time saved for their own product teams, they don't need to ever release it for it to make business sense for them.
> 
> Apple has $100B+ in cash. Spending low millions on a software tool is not even a board level concern - its just a purchase for a business unit.



While I get the part that seven figure sums are nothing for Apple, I still don't get the logic here. If Redmantica is useful for some Apple employees (I'd imagine a handful), doesn't it seem just a tad overkill to buy the whole frickin company? Do they buy the sugar company that supplies sugar for their coffee? That's some serious procurement issues.

Still don't get it.

The only sensible-ish answer has been they're using the tech for something not yet seen, but even that feels like a stretch given how niche Redmatica was. I see a few people are conflating this with the Camel issue, working on a new product that will conquer the universe somehow.


----------



## AC986 (Jan 14, 2015)

Being a Logic user forever, I find it interesting that the onboard synths that come with Logic hardly get used that much. Or should I qualify that and say, at least not by me.

If Apple have bought Alchemy (Camel Audio) for Logic etc then it's probably good news for Apple users. They's make their money back with ease, no need to worry about that.


----------



## Guy Rowland (Jan 14, 2015)

adriancook @ Wed Jan 14 said:


> Being a Logic user forever, I find it interesting that the onboard synths that come with Logic hardly get used that much. Or should I qualify that and say, at least not by me.
> 
> If Apple have bought Alchemy (Camel Audio) for Logic etc then it's probably good news for Apple users. They's make their money back with ease, no need to worry about that.



I don't think any DAW's synths are used much, and there are some pretty good ones out there - somehow they never really get traction.

I don't get how they'd get their money back with ease either. Logic's retail price has dropped massively - would they add $100 to the next version to get Alchemy 2? Possibly, but it's very out of character, and most folks would say they didn't want it. Do they market it separately? Again out of character.


----------



## AC986 (Jan 14, 2015)

Guy Rowland @ Wed Jan 14 said:


> I don't think any DAW's synths are used much, and there are some pretty good ones out there - somehow they never really get traction.
> 
> I don't get how they'd get their money back with ease either. Logic's retail price has dropped massively - would they add $100 to the next version to get Alchemy 2? Possibly, but it's very out of character, and most folks would say they didn't want it. Do they market it separately? Again out of character.



Yes. There are some very good ones. Apart from the synths on Logic/Cubase etc which tend to get overlooked, the Hammond EVB3 is one of the best Hammond simulations out there, and it's technically 'free'.

The idea behind the money thinking is, should they include Alchemy (if indeed there is veracity behind these suppositions), I would and wouldn't be surprised if the price wasn't factored into the next incarnation of Logic if Alchemy was indeed included. Or it could just be a loss leader for them?

Out of character for Apple to market it separately I would have thought.


----------



## G.R. Baumann (Jan 14, 2015)

Does no one around here feel that EXS24 is well, somewhat dated? Perhaps it was as simple as that, instead of inventing the wheel again, they might just have snapped up CA and continue to develop that with some of CA's own experts to have a fresh and competetive sample engine behind Logic. Perhaps...


----------



## lpuser (Jan 14, 2015)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> but I still don't get Redmatica. Maybe if I understood that, I might understand this better. I can't see that they were a threat to Apple, and I can't see that Apple were interested in their tech for shiny new things. Why did they acquire them?



Guy, the question is:
Was it because of Keymap, Autosampler etc., or did the buyout happen because Apple wanted to acquire some highly skilled developers? That question still remains to be answered, since none of the Redmatica products made it into Logic yet.

Tom


----------



## AC986 (Jan 14, 2015)

G.R. Baumann @ Wed Jan 14 said:


> Does no one around here feel that EXS24 is well, somewhat dated?



It's still a pretty good sample host. Camel Audio don't just do Alchemy do they.


----------



## proxima (Jan 14, 2015)

G.R. Baumann @ Wed Jan 14 said:


> Does no one around here feel that EXS24 is well, somewhat dated? Perhaps it was as simple as that, instead of inventing the wheel again, they might just have snapped up CA and continue to develop that with some of CA's own experts to have a fresh and competetive sample engine behind Logic. Perhaps...


More than anything, the older Logic plugins like EXS24 could use a facelift. Its interface is somewhat uninviting for new users to Logic like me (I switched off Reaper when Logic Pro X was released), and the widespread adoption of Kontakt means I'm much better off learning its ins and outs. 

My favorite Logic synth is Sculpture though. I haven't tried anything quite like it.

I probably care too much about UIs. Absynth's interface is similarly off-putting to me. I'd just prefer to spend my time tweaking plugins that don't make my eyes bleed.


----------



## muziksculp (Jan 14, 2015)

Sorry to hear about Camel Audio closing their Shop. 

I never purchased any of their products, for some reason I felt the audio quality was just not good enough. Maybe I missed some fun using their products.

What was the primary reason they decided to close shop ?


----------



## kitekrazy (Jan 14, 2015)

adriancook @ Wed Jan 14 said:


> *Being a Logic user forever, I find it interesting that the onboard synths that come with Logic hardly get used that much. Or should I qualify that and say, at least not by me.*
> 
> If Apple have bought Alchemy (Camel Audio) for Logic etc then it's probably good news for Apple users. They's make their money back with ease, no need to worry about that.



You could say that about any DAW even with Reason. Even with Reason RE's it's getting like that. 
That's what is unique about Reaper. The make a DAW, you buy your own add ons.


----------



## lpuser (Jan 15, 2015)

Guy Rowland @ Wed Jan 14 said:


> I still don't get the logic here. If Redmantica is useful for some Apple employees (I'd imagine a handful), doesn't it seem just a tad overkill to buy the whole frickin company?



If Apple needs talented developers, then it´s much easier for them to buy the company than to endlessly negotiate about who (in the future) may still do what. The important part here is "secrecy" about new products, future developments etc. Also people only have limited resources and I doubt it would have been possible to work for Apple and - at the same time - keep a company up and running (acquiring other employees is not a good idea either because that would complicate everything even more).


----------



## Guido Negraszus (Jan 15, 2015)

I saw this on the Audiojungle forum by a poster called "OhmLab":

"I do sound design for them. They did indeed close their doors due to the VAT changes."

Then someone said he doesn't believe that and OhmLab wrote:

"It is true. Though they have reached out recently to let us know the team will be back in the future with a new business and fresh ideas."

Well, we are all in the dark. If it is because the VAT changes WHY so secretively? Why wouldn't they just say so?


----------



## José Herring (Jan 15, 2015)

What are these vat changes that are causing people to close business?


----------



## kitekrazy (Jan 15, 2015)

Guido Negraszus @ Thu Jan 15 said:


> I saw this on the Audiojungle forum by a poster called "OhmLab":
> 
> "I do sound design for them. They did indeed close their doors due to the VAT changes."
> 
> ...



Sounds like BS to me.


----------



## PJMorgan (Jan 15, 2015)

Guido Negraszus @ 15th January 2015 said:


> I saw this on the Audiojungle forum by a poster called "OhmLab":
> 
> "I do sound design for them. They did indeed close their doors due to the VAT changes."
> 
> ...



Again I can't say if he's right or wrong, only CA can say for sure. But I do know they had already been charging VAT on EU sales as long as I've been using them. I find it kinda hard to believe they wouldn't be able to deal with the new EU regulations, especially since they're not a small one man run company. But hey what do I know.


----------



## Vastman (Jan 15, 2015)

If it were VAT they would have let us know. CA has always been a very open and communicative company. Zen hasn't shown his face... it's gotta be a buy out and there's only one dark force with such a history of squelching free flow of information...


----------



## G.R. Baumann (Jan 16, 2015)

PJMorgan @ Fri Jan 16 said:


> ...I do know they had already been charging VAT on EU sales as long as I've been using them.....



Well, not as long as I use Alchemy, and I was late to the party! I remember that they were not able to consider that I am VAT registered, and they offered free soundpacks instead. 

Ben is not a stupid man, I remember when I talked with him about the fucking banks, and we had some pretty strong views of mine in common. Social banking and social finance was both high on our agenda and coincidently I used the same bank he did.

These muppets in the EU care making a fine mess with this new VAT regulation!


----------



## PJMorgan (Jan 16, 2015)

Well I don't know about how they dealt with vat registered companies but the prices in their shop were automatically adjusted with about 20% added to UK in comparison to US prices. And you could definitely save a bit when buying Alchemy sound packs from US based stores.

Who knows maybe this is their way of rebelling against the system. But as others have said its very out of character for CA to be so secretive.


----------



## G.R. Baumann (Jan 16, 2015)

PJMorgan @ Fri Jan 16 said:


> But as others have said its very out of character for CA to be so secretive.



I would rather think, they have to be secretive for the moment, it's quite a challenge to re-open on the Caymans. :wink:


----------

