# Making profit with royalties!!!



## Leandro Gardini (Jul 3, 2007)

Hi there...I´d like to start working in this kind of business now but I don´t know much about it...I´d like to hear your experience with this business...is it profitable???What´s the average???In what way it can be harmful for us composers???Please share you experience!!!


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## midphase (Jul 4, 2007)

? huh ?


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## Daryl (Jul 4, 2007)

You will find wide ranging views on this subject. Basically there are two sorts of Royalties; Performance (broadcast and, er performance) and Mechanical (licensing). It depends what sort of music you write and for what purpose how much you can earn in Royalties. Currently nearly half my income is Royalties.

D


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## Leandro Gardini (Jul 4, 2007)

Actually Daryl, I´m already in this business but as this is my first time I´m afraid of it a bit...have you ever been successful with it???


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 4, 2007)

Leo, 

You're right to be scared. Here's what might happen:

- You do a soundtrack for a film or a tv series
- It plays on television somewhere, maybe more than twice or three times, maybe even in one of the Scandinavian countries
- 2 years later, you get a big cheque in the mail from your Brazilian royalty society
- You freak and realize that it's possible to make some real money from royalties

From that day on, you're always going to be SCARED that the next cheque will be a tiny little one, that you'll have to give up your big house and fancy car and big screen monitor, etc, etc, etc. >8o 

Don't do it, man, don't do it!


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## Daryl (Jul 4, 2007)

leogardini @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> Actually Daryl, I´m already in this business but as this is my first time I´m afraid of it a bit...have you ever been successful with it???


How do you judge success? In terms of money, then yes, I suppose that I have been successful. If you mean can I write what I want, then mostly I can.

D


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## Leandro Gardini (Jul 4, 2007)

Ned, thanks for you input...based on your comment and Daryl´s comment I can see this must be a secure business...actually I was looking for a possible warning about it but as the company/contract I´m working with is trustful I think I won´t have any problem!!!


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## synthetic (Jul 9, 2007)

Thomas, thanks for this timely post as I'm considering how to start making some money in the business. Based on your comments, I assume you're not a fan of places like Pump Audio. They appear to have wide distribution but keep 50% of your writer's share. It seems like an option for those of us who don't have a relationship with a music licensing company.


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## midphase (Jul 9, 2007)

Just to add my usual two cents....the market is flooded with tons of music libraries who already have tons of great artists.

Unless (as previously stated) the company has great distribution and contacts, you shouldn't get your hopes too high.


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## Daryl (Jul 10, 2007)

Thomas_J @ Tue Jul 10 said:


> 3) Once it's time to do some writing for them, write music that is both timeless and modern, if you can. Generally speaking, drums, guitars and electronica elements will get a lot more usage than traditional orchestral tracks. Your financial success will depend on the usability of your cues, and not necessarily the musical qualities, so to maximize your income potential I would recommend that you always offer alternate versions of your tracks with beats and modern elements.
> 
> Good luck!


Just to add to this; Thomas is correct, except that orchestral tracks are reckoned to have a shelf life of around 20-25 years, whereas "fashionable" tracks may last for as little as 6 months. Make sure that you have a good spread of styles, provided that you can do them well, and if necessary use a couple of pseudonyms.

D


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## Stephen Rees (Jul 10, 2007)

synthetic @ Tue Jul 10 said:


> I assume you're not a fan of places like Pump Audio. They appear to have wide distribution but keep 50% of your writer's share.



I haven't dealt with Pump Audio but I did look into them a few months back. My reading of their contract is that you receive all of your writers share. The only place it mentions '50%' is in Clause 5 where it is referring to the mechanicals which is totally normal for library music (the 'writer's share' of performance royalties is specifically excluded from Clause 2 for example). If your collection agency is anything like the PRS here in the UK, you will receive all of your writers share directly from them, without the library / Pump Audio having anything to do with them.

Definitely double check this with them if you are thinking of submitting some tracks though


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## lux (Jul 10, 2007)

I think Thomas made a lot of good points here, pretty interesting.



> 3) Once it's time to do some writing for them, write music that is both timeless and modern, if you can. Generally speaking, drums, guitars and electronica elements will get a lot more usage than traditional orchestral tracks. Your financial success will depend on the usability of your cues, and not necessarily the musical qualities, so to maximize your income potential I would recommend that you always offer alternate versions of your tracks with beats and modern elements.



This one is very interesting. It confirms an impression I had, expecially the orchestral versus modern stuff thing. I'm wondering if this applies also to typical TV hybrids (kinda booming RMX+orchestral) and zimmerish cues. I wonder how much they can be really placed today considering that only on forums i've heard hundreds of tracks in that vein. I have to guess actually libraries have an outrageous number of those cues at catalogue. But i could be wrong.



> 2) Make sure the company has GREAT distribution. This is the most important factor in this industry. Great worldwide distribution is crucial. You want as many people as possible listening to your work, and using it. Do some digging to find out how extensive their distribution is, and how quickly they can get out the work you do for them. Find out how long they've been in business too. Branding is half the battle for library music companies.



This is very important too. Thanks for the hints Thomas.

Luca


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## hv (Jul 12, 2007)

There's a web site that that's really quite good:

http://www.starpolish.com

... go to the advise tab. It's really aimed at the Record industry but there's 4 really good articles under "Music Publishing and Copyrights" and some relevant material under "Alternative Careers" which is how they apparently view film scoring.

Howard


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jul 12, 2007)

So, if someone gives me 100% writers share. What does that actually mean?

As well as the 50% pulishers share?


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## Synesthesia (Jul 12, 2007)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Thu Jul 12 said:


> So, if someone gives me 100% writers share. What does that actually mean?
> 
> As well as the 50% pulishers share?



The pie is typically divided (esp in the USA) from a total of 200%.

So, 100% (the so-called 'writers share') goes to the writers (hopefully!) and the second 100% goes to the publishers (although it is also possible for a writer to get a share of this 'publishers share' granted back - typically not in library, but in TV).

So if you get 100% writers share, you are getting 50% of the total royalty paid out.

I think (correct me if wrong) that this way of looking at it has arisen because some royalties in the USA (and a few other territories) are only collectable if the work has a publisher.

So, if you are unpublished, you lost the 100% publishers share - it is not granted to the writer(s) by default - as the PRS would do for example.

Cheers

Paul


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## Leandro Gardini (Jul 13, 2007)

Thomas, you input has been very helpful and as far as I could realise, I won´t have any problem with this company because everything you said is part of them or their contract!!!
Thanks for all the replies, this discussion made fell more confident about entering in this business!!!


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## hv (Jul 13, 2007)

I might also add that its crucial that you be a member of a rights organization. That's effectively the only way you can transfer your copyright to a publisher and still get the writer's share. Or for you to form your own publishing entity and use it to collect both shares.

Howard


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## Niah (Jul 13, 2007)

hv @ Fri Jul 13 said:


> I might also add that its crucial that you be a member of a rights organization. That's effectively the only way you can transfer your copyright to a publisher and still get the writer's share. Or for you to form your own publishing entity and use it to collect both shares.
> 
> Howard



I'm glad you brought this up. 

What do you recommend has a good rights organization?

I'm in europe and I been unfornate to try to find a good organization.


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## Leandro Gardini (Jul 13, 2007)

hv @ Fri Jul 13 said:


> I might also add that its crucial that you be a member of a rights organization. That's effectively the only way you can transfer your copyright to a publisher and still get the writer's share. Or for you to form your own publishing entity and use it to collect both shares.
> 
> Howard


Sure I´m aware about this...since I started my site I´ve been registering all my musics at our national library here in Brazil that take effect all over the world...also, I´ve been forwarded by the producer to become a member of BMI which seems to be the biggest company royalty available today...let´s see how it works :wink: !!!


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## vlado hudec (Jul 31, 2007)

I have 2 questions..I make some music for library company. I have 100% performance royalties. It is the same as writer's share?

And second question..the company is at US territory..Can I join BMI or ASCAP? I'm from Slovakia,not American.

Thanks


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## Herman Witkam (Jul 31, 2007)

midphase @ Fri Jul 13 said:


> I thought you were in Las Vegas?



No. that's Depp :D 



Niah @ Fri Jul 13 said:


> I'm in europe and I been unfornate to try to find a good organization.



You're in Portugal, right? I thought that all or at least most individual European countries had their own organisations. A small country like the Netherlands does, though.


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## Herman Witkam (Jul 31, 2007)

vlado hudec @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> And second question..the company is at US territory..Can I join BMI or ASCAP? I'm from Slovakia,not American.



You can't join ASCAP or BMI, but you can join a national organisation in Slovakia that has contracts with either of them. At least, that's how it's done here in the Netherlands.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jul 31, 2007)

Does anyone have any links for libraries that specializes in taking orch/hybrid(rmx) like music?


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Aug 5, 2007)

Herman Witkam @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> vlado hudec @ Tue Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> > And second question..the company is at US territory..Can I join BMI or ASCAP? I'm from Slovakia,not American.
> ...



Yes you can, Herman. Maarten told me he did. It IS a bit tough though, you need to file all kinds of forms - even via an American consulate, I believe. I phoned Buma/Stemra about this, and they said (of course) that there is no need and that they will handle royalty collections. I think being a member of Ascap or BMI may speed things up by bypassing the Buma/Stemra.


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## vlado hudec (Nov 11, 2007)

Hi friends,

I have one problem,so I like to know your opinion and advices.

I made some tracks for one library music company in LA. They paid me some money for every track. I also have a royalties for sharing - performance royalties. Standard agreement I think.

But...to get a royalties I must be a member of organization as ASCAP or BMI /in US/. I am from Slovakia. Here is the same organization named SOZA. So I emailed them and described the situation. They answered me, I must send in some proof,that my music is broadcast /played/ somewhere. Without it I cannot join SOZA. 

All my tracks are registrated in ASCAP or BMI,because the company is from LA. I sent a copy of agreement to SOZA,but it wasn't an acceptable proof for them and they reject my membership.

So I emailed a guy from library music company and he sent me a CD,where are 2 of my tracks,which I made. Then I emailed SOZA, that I have a CD contains my music. The answer was..it isn't acceptable proof,because this CD is not commercially selling and reject my membership again.

Many of you made library music. So can you tell me what kind of proof I need to join into organization like SOZA? Because when I'm not a member, I cannot get any $ with performance royalties.

Thanks a lot

Vlado


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## IvanP (Nov 11, 2007)

Niah @ Fri Jul 13 said:


> I'm glad you brought this up.
> 
> What do you recommend has a good rights organization?
> 
> I'm in europe and I been unfornate to try to find a good organization.



Niah, I may be wrong, but I think the spanish equivalent of ASCAP / BMI collects also from and maybe for Portugal, i.e., it operates in the whole peninsula.

You can check their website here: www.sgae.es

Hopefully you can email them and ask for some info...


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## Daryl (Nov 11, 2007)

This is really something that the LA company should get involved in on your behalf. When I started writing library music, the company I write for did all the paperwork for me. The alternative for you is to wait until some of your music is used, and then join SOZA. In the UK, you have three years to back claim royalties, and the LA company will be able to tell you when your tracks have been licensed.

Meanwhile, if you have written any other music, and it is performed or broadcast anywhere in the world, make sure that you keep a record of it, so that you have the proof needed.

I know it seems like a royal PITA ATM, but until your music makes any money, you have lost nothing. Don't think of library music as quick bucks, more of a pension plan. I fully expect my royalties (unless things change drastically in the next 25 years) to be a sizable pension plan for me, and that's how I treat the work. I keep topping it up every year.

D


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Nov 11, 2007)

vlado hudec @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> I have 2 questions..I make some music for library company. I have 100% performance royalties. It is the same as writer's share?
> 
> And second question..the company is at US territory..Can I join BMI or ASCAP? I'm from Slovakia,not American.
> 
> Thanks



Different rights/royalties.
Performers rights, which are not acknowledged in all countries (I believe) are for the people who have performed on a track or event, completely independent from who wrote the track.
In Holland we have a different organization for performers rights, since a few decades. Before that, performers did not get any share. The share, BTW, is independent from the quoted 100% writers and 100% publishers righs.

Since most of us play there own compositions, this is an additional (but small) fee when your music is used. Of course the country where the track is used must have a copyright law that includes performers' rights.

Success with getting listed in Poland - otherwise, like Thomas J. and Maarten S. try to become a member of BMI or ASCAP. Nasty procedure, but it can be done.

Peter


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## mathis (Nov 11, 2007)

What Daryl says. Wait until anybody actually uses your tracks, that's then the proof SOZA is asking for.


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## vlado hudec (Nov 11, 2007)

thanks,

before 3 days LA guy wrote me,that 2 of my tracks were used. Than I wrote to SOZA,so I am curious to reply.

Vlado


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## Daryl (Nov 11, 2007)

vlado hudec @ Sun Nov 11 said:


> thanks,
> 
> before 3 days LA guy wrote me,that 2 of my tracks were used. Than I wrote to SOZA,so I am curious to reply.
> 
> Vlado


That should be absolutely fine then. Just make sure that the library company provides all the usage information so that there is no delay in you becoming registered.

Regarding performance royalties there is a slight language barrier going on here.

Performer's royalties are exactly that; royalties for the performer, and in the UK performers don't get any when they are recording under the MU library agreement.

Performance royalties are royalties that the owners of the copyright of both the music and the recording receive when there is a performance of the music, either live (in the case of the music) or broadcast. The writer's share is not less than 50% of the total.

D


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## Daryl (Nov 11, 2007)

Waywyn @ Sun Nov 11 said:


> midphase @ Tue Jul 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Just to add my usual two cents....the market is flooded with tons of music libraries who already have tons of great artists.
> ...


Agreed, and to add to that, don't for one minute think that writing for a music library is an easy option compared with writing for a film or TV programme. If anything it is the other way round. People who tend to try to get rid of their second rate stuff on a music library, tend to earn nothing from it. :lol: 

D


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## Waywyn (Nov 11, 2007)

Daryl @ Sun Nov 11 said:


> Waywyn @ Sun Nov 11 said:
> 
> 
> > midphase @ Tue Jul 10 said:
> ...



Just a thought which came to my mind now, while reading your post. There is a german game developer forum around and you won't believe how many musicians, composers or hobby guys post their stuff there, only because they think they could make some fast money. If it really would be that easy, every musician would do music for games.


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## Hawkes (Nov 12, 2007)

I have a question regarding the publisher's share... If a non-exclusive library wants to collect the publisher's share, does that make them the publisher? And, would that not exclude other 'non-exclusive' libraries from doing the same? Or can there be more than one publisher for a piece? I'm assuming that the way around that issue is by libraries renaming a piece before they include it in their catalog?



Thomas_J @ Mon Jul 09 said:


> 1) First of all make sure you get to keep 100% writer's share. This is generally the norm in the lib industry. The company retains 100% publisher's share and the composer keeps the writer's share. Some libs may try to screw you over or play on your ignorance as a first timer, so beware.


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## Daryl (Nov 12, 2007)

Hawkes @ Mon Nov 12 said:


> I have a question regarding the publisher's share... If a non-exclusive library wants to collect the publisher's share, does that make them the publisher? And, would that not exclude other 'non-exclusive' libraries from doing the same? Or can there be more than one publisher for a piece? I'm assuming that the way around that issue is by libraries renaming a piece before they include it in their catalog?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Publisher is the Publisher. It can be one or more people or organisations. However you will probably find that for a non-exclusive agreement you would have to be the Writer and the Publisher. The library will make their money on the licence fee paid for any broadcast, which you may or may not get a share of, depending on your agreement with them.

D


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