# Best way to setup Logic and VE PRO



## utopia (Feb 16, 2012)

Ok, I know this has been discussed before, but I wanted to ask again to see how's everyone doing this currently.
I've downloaded VE pro demo and tried the multiport Logic configuration. I have a mac mini server (i7, 4 gb ram) as my master and a x79 pc as a slave. The pc is running EW Hollywood Strings and Brass (gold) in a single VE PRO Server 64bit instance. I have created many midi tracks in Logic each corresponding to a VE pro port and a channel as the manual suggested. The problem is that as my track count grew to include all the necessary articulations Logic gets very slow and buggy. I get constant audio dropouts (the sound won't come out of the speakers though it clearly shows on Logic meters). The only way to get to hear anything again is to reset my audio interface (apogee duet 1st gen). The pc is not the problem - it barely reaches 25% of cpu load.
So I'm having a bit of a difficult time setting up everything properly on the mac side. Would it be better to have many VE pro instances hosting different instrument groups like "strings" "brass" etc and have separate VE pro instances inserted in Logic with midi tracks assigned to them to better distribute processor load? Again, right now I was running all from a single VE pro instance which hosted all the strings, all the brass etc and had a ton of midi tracks in logic all coming from it.
Could this be the bottleneck and reason of audio dropouts and Logic being way too slow?
What's everyone's method of setting things up?


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## jleckie (Feb 16, 2012)

here you are:

http://www.novatlan-sound.de/downloads/ ... mplate.pdf


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 16, 2012)

utopia @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> Ok, I know this has been discussed before, but I wanted to ask again to see how's everyone doing this currently.
> I've downloaded VE pro demo and tried the multiport Logic configuration. I have a mac mini server (i7, 4 gb ram) as my master and a x79 pc as a slave. The pc is running EW Hollywood Strings and Brass (gold) in a single VE PRO Server 64bit instance. I have created many midi tracks in Logic each corresponding to a VE pro port and a channel as the manual suggested. The problem is that as my track count grew to include all the necessary articulations Logic gets very slow and buggy. I get constant audio dropouts (the sound won't come out of the speakers though it clearly shows on Logic meters). The only way to get to hear anything again is to reset my audio interface (apogee duet 1st gen). The pc is not the problem - it barely reaches 25% of cpu load.
> So I'm having a bit of a difficult time setting up everything properly on the mac side. Would it be better to have many VE pro instances hosting different instrument groups like "strings" "brass" etc and have separate VE pro instances inserted in Logic with midi tracks assigned to them to better distribute processor load? Again, right now I was running all from a single VE pro instance which hosted all the strings, all the brass etc and had a ton of midi tracks in logic all coming from it.
> Could this be the bottleneck and reason of audio dropouts and Logic being way too slow?
> What's everyone's method of setting things up?



There is a new release coming soon then should help you with some of this. I am doing what you described with little problems.


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## utopia (Feb 16, 2012)

Thanks for the replies!
Jay, are you running everything from a single VE PRO instance? Or do you still have multiple instances for different instrument groups? Does this affect performance? 
Jleckie, thanks for the link! I've read it before-useful stuff if you're trying to build a template the old way (before they introduced the multiport environment). I was trying to build a multiport template.
Also, how much ram would one expect for the master (not running any actual sample libs) to spend on running VE pro to connect to the slave (running the sample libs) and have a ton of midi tracks controlling it? I'm now thinking ram might be the problem. I have 4 gigs on the mini server. I thought that since the server is not running any sample libs it should be more than enough for Logic. However, as I previously wrote I get constant audio dropouts as soon as my track count goes up and I'm totally unable to work.
Any ideas? Thanks.


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 17, 2012)

utopia @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> Thanks for the replies!
> Jay, are you running everything from a single VE PRO instance? Or do you still have multiple instances for different instrument groups? Does this affect performance?



I instance on my Mac, 1 on my PC. Better performance overall then when I was connecting to about 12 of them.

I now contribute to Mac Pro Video's Hub and I will be doing an article on setting this up.


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## jleckie (Feb 17, 2012)

I think you will be alright with the 4 gigs but I have not had so little ram in my computer since the days when 4 gigs was topping a computer off. :o 

On my one computer I am running Logic with a very powerful PC slave and in the Logic host I'm running several instances of Kontakt and I show 4.2 gigs of memory getting used so if you keep only Logic running on your host you will do without any problems as far ass I can tell.


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## utopia (Feb 17, 2012)

Well that's exactly what I thought..but I'm actually very dissapointed with the performance I'm getting. As I said I'm having constant dropouts and Logic gets very slow and buggy as soon as the track count gets bigger. The only way to get audio back is to restart audio engine. Any ideas as to why this might be happening? Maybe something to do with multithreading settings in Logic? Any help is greatly appreciated.


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## antoniopandrade (Feb 17, 2012)

I've tried this on my i7 Mac Mini Quad (16GB RAM) and have also had dropouts as the track counts get bigger. I had my sample buffer rate at 128 (maybe increasing it would help ease out the issues, but I haven't tried that yet) and at that point, strangely, only the first external MIDI track in a given MIDI channel had pops, clicks and dropouts. I'm also using an x79 slave. When I open the CPU monitor I see that only one of my CPU's 8 virtual cores is handling the processing. Maybe these clicks and pops are a function of Logic's handling of plug-in processing? I can only guess. This is all trying the environment multiport solution. I'll try it with the previous work-around using audio/event input plug-ins and see what gives.

On the other hand, points to MOTU, DP handles my truly huge template with no hitches and some pretty nasty plug-ins thrown in at 128 buffer rate without a hitch.


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## studioj (Feb 17, 2012)

With a super large track count you'll probably want to run VEP in "decouple" mode. otherwise Logic can't keep up in my experience. Also I think 4 gigs is pushing it these days for running a DAW. I would say 6-8 at very minimum if you're not loading a lot of samples.


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## IFM (Feb 17, 2012)

As studioj mentioned yes you really need to decouple or things get out of hand quickly with Logic. I have been running once instance per instrument group (using channels for articulations). This method works well for external slaves but if you try to do that on the same mac you will run into issues. 
Chris


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## utopia (Feb 17, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the replies. I'll try the older method and see if that helps. I still fail to see how 4gb should not be enough to run the sequencer- I've run an entire orchestra from EWQL and Symphobia1 on a 5 year old Macbook pro with 4 gigs without much problems. Not sure my problems are memory related as I shouldn't be taxing it really with that kind of setup. + As Antonio said, he's also getting dropouts with his mini having 16gb.
I've checked to see the core distribution and yes,everything coming from a single VE pro instance is being piled on a single core! (bravo,Logic! :roll: ). Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that render the multiport method useless? That is,unless you have a very fast processor where a single core can cope with this load.
I'll also try decoupling as you guys suggested. All this is a bit frustrating on the Logic side. Having to constantly look for workarounds to get a decent performance is quite tiring. First the giant environment layer to "overcome" the 16 tracks limit, now having to deal with the core distribution. 
Should definitely check out DP8 when it comes out. Here's to hoping they'll finally have a demo license.


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## jleckie (Feb 17, 2012)

When you say MANY midi tracks. About how many are you using?


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## mosso (Feb 18, 2012)

If you're running all your VI's through one instance of VEP, that means whenever you play any instrument that uses that instance all the instruments that also use that instance, all the audio return streams for that instance and any FX plugs they feed are all put into live mode, which means they all go onto one core.

I'd suggest starting by using the "old" method (16 MIDI channels per VEP instance) and then reducing the number of instances (so perhaps try 32 MIDI channels per instance next, then 48 etc. etc.) until you reach a good balance.

FWIW I'm using the "old" method because I just can't be bothered with the faff of the new multi-port environment layer. My template uses 10 instances (and I add more if necessary on a per project basis). Master is Mac Mini Server i7 2GHz - slave is an i7 2.8GHz Win7 Pro PC and I/O buffer is 128. I pound it with some big arrangements but the load on the Mini rarely goes over 40% on the "main" core - the other cores are much lower than that. The possible downside might be that it takes longer to load a song (as it needs to connect to more instances?).


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 18, 2012)

mosso @ Sat Feb 18 said:


> If you're running all your VI's through one instance of VEP, that means whenever you play any instrument that uses that instance all the instruments that also use that instance, all the audio return streams for that instance and any FX plugs they feed are all put into live mode, which means they all go onto one core.



Yes and no, I believe because VE Pro itself does a good job of spreading the instrument load throughout the cores before it gets to Logic, so therefore it is not a problem. Even though the display of cores in Logic will show the last core carrying more than the others, Activity Monitor will tell a different story.With the auxes in Logic however, that is true but unless you are using massively huge amount of FX on auxes (which I don't use generally until I have converted to audio and am doing final mixing) that also is not much of an issue here.


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## mosso (Feb 18, 2012)

Hi Jay,

In my case I should have mentioned that almost all of my instrument hosting is remote, so I don't worry about VEP-hosted instruments on the same computer as Logic. I do concur with your assessment of core load (Logic & Activity manager show very different things) - I wonder do those having dropouts experience the same thing?


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 18, 2012)

mosso @ Sat Feb 18 said:


> Hi Jay,
> 
> In my case I should have mentioned that almost all of my instrument hosting is remote, so I don't worry about VEP-hosted instruments on the same computer as Logic. I do concur with your assessment of core load (Logic & Activity manager show very different things) - I wonder do those having dropouts experience the same thing?



In my case I have it on two computers so I really do not totally trust anything I see especially in either. If I am not having problems, I accept that all is well.


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## utopia (Feb 19, 2012)

jleckie @ Sat Feb 18 said:


> When you say MANY midi tracks. About how many are you using?


Well I was trying to run close to 40 tracks from a single VE pro instance and the project became unusable. It shouldn't be too many,right? 
Mosso, I will try what you suggested. It's quite a pain in the a$$ to setup everything that way with all the additional plugins one has to insert but I sure hope that it will run smoother that way. How many tracks per instance are your having? 16? Also, how much ram do you have on your mini?


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## IFM (Feb 19, 2012)

mosso @ Sat Feb 18 said:


> .
> 
> FWIW I'm using the "old" method because I just can't be bothered with the faff of the new multi-port environment layer. My template uses 10 instances (and I add more if necessary on a per project basis). Master is Mac Mini Server i7 2GHz - slave is an i7 2.8GHz Win7 Pro PC and I/O buffer is 128. I pound it with some big arrangements but the load on the Mini rarely goes over 40% on the "main" core - the other cores are much lower than that. The possible downside might be that it takes longer to load a song (as it needs to connect to more instances?).



I am doing the same as you but with two slaves o e PC and one Mini i5 with 16gigs of ram. VEP connects to the Mac extremely fast but takes a while for the PC so I figure it must be a Windows thing. I tried the new layer but got similar results with the old method and as I am using channels for articulation and mixing inside Logic the old method works best for me. I don't know if it helped but I also turned down the number of streams to four per instance and one port. 
Chris


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## mosso (Feb 19, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ 18/2/2012 said:


> mosso @ Sat Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Jay,
> ...



Indeed - if things are working there's no need to worry! I would be curious to know if those who are having this one core problem see it replicated in Activity Monitor...


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## mosso (Feb 19, 2012)

utopia @ 19/2/2012 said:


> Mosso, I will try what you suggested. It's quite a pain in the a$$ to setup everything that way with all the additional plugins one has to insert but I sure hope that it will run smoother that way. How many tracks per instance are your having? 16? Also, how much ram do you have on your mini?



Yeah it's a bit more work to get setup - in my template I have already setup channel strips for 4 extra VEP instances (if required) with 16 MIDI channels each so if I feel the need there's no big hassle getting it done mid-project.

In the pre-loaded instances I'm running 81 channels of MIDI in total, varying between 3 and 12 channels per instance (they're split by instrument subsection). I'd say my biggest cues run about 50 of those plus 10 or so more from the per-project instances simultaneously.

I have 4GB RAM on the Mini - it's important to remember that I've been running only a handful of instruments on the Mini and they're Logic's built in synths. Everything else is hosted on the slave. I do intend to put more in at some point but I initially wanted to see how I went with the default RAM, and thus far I haven't needed more.

I should also say I've never even tried the multiport VEP solution (as my template is doing just fine as it is). I'm sure I'll test it at some point but it's worth bearing in mind that I have no way to directly compare the two ways of doing things.


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## mosso (Feb 19, 2012)

Dragonwind @ 19/2/2012 said:


> I tried the new layer but got similar results with the old method and as I am using channels for articulation and mixing inside Logic the old method works best for me. I don't know if it helped but I also turned down the number of streams to four per instance and one port.
> Chris



Hi Chris,

Are you saying that you have the similar results using the old method as using the multiport layer? There's not much difference?


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## utopia (Feb 21, 2012)

Ok,tried the old approach.I'm getting *constant* hanging notes! the project is completely unusable at this point! Anyone had problems with VE pro, Play and hanging notes? Getting more frustrated


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## jgarciaserra (Feb 22, 2012)

Hanging notes will be solved in next build. I can tell that it works fine.
The only absurd problem is the "one core overload" problem in Logic. It make me think of migrate to cubase.

(Sorry for my english)


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## utopia (Feb 22, 2012)

jgarciaserra @ Wed Feb 22 said:


> Hanging notes will be solved in next build. I can tell that it works fine.
> The only absurd problem is the "one core overload" problem in Logic. It make me think of migrate to cubase.
> 
> (Sorry for my english)


wow...thats great to hear! Do you know when this build will be available to public? Am I right thinking you are testing a beta?
The single core spikes are actually a big disappointment. I've also been considering switching because of this (and some other stuff)...Here's to hoping logic X will fix it whenever (if at all) it comes out.


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## antoniopandrade (Feb 22, 2012)

Utopia. I've been using the Event plug-in solution and I haven't been getting any hanged notes yet. The core overload is indeed a pain, and is one of the main reasons I still prefer DP over Logic for large orchestral templates.


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## utopia (Feb 22, 2012)

antoniopandrade @ Wed Feb 22 said:


> Utopia. I've been using the Event plug-in solution and I haven't been getting any hanged notes yet. The core overload is indeed a pain, and is one of the main reasons I still prefer DP over Logic for large orchestral templates.


Antonio, I've tried this method and got a lot of hanging notes. Even more than with the multiport solution. Not sure why is that happening. Will have to wait for the update to see if it fixes the problem for me.


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## IFM (Feb 22, 2012)

I so wish my Mac mini would run HS...they really need to figure out how to fix the inactive ram issue. Anyways ive spent the better part of two days setting up different templates...both wi one instance and with the multiport layer. I do like seeing the mix on one screen but I can't see the need for hosting my Kontakt instruments outside of Logic. At this point I am debating on what to do with the mini...maybe install windows omit and make it the slave and sell of the PC parts. 
Chris


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## antoniopandrade (Feb 22, 2012)

If you replace one of the HDDs on the MMS (Mini Server) with an SSD and put 16GB of RAM in it, I'm pretty sure you could run HS off of it. It's a pretty powerful little machine!


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## jgarciaserra (Feb 22, 2012)

> wow...thats great to hear! Do you know when this build will be available to public? Am I right thinking you are testing a beta?
> The single core spikes are actually a big disappointment. I've also been considering switching because of this (and some other stuff)...Here's to hoping logic X will fix it whenever (if at all) it comes out.



Yes, it's a beta.
I think it will be released soon, it seems to work very fine. 8)


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## IFM (Feb 23, 2012)

antoniopandrade @ Thu Feb 23 said:


> If you replace one of the HDDs on the MMS (Mini Server) with an SSD and put 16GB of RAM in it, I'm pretty sure you could run HS off of it. It's a pretty powerful little machine!


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## Ryan Scully (Mar 6, 2012)

Nice and informative thread that I stumbled upon here : )


I'm currently building my template within VE Pro 5 and Logic now myself. I am using
the "old" method mentioned here but noticed an annoying problem. I reach the 16 channel limit on an instance and then look to add the event plugin. I am able to get the next available port(i.e. 17) assigned between VE Pro and Logic but I am unable to generate anymore than 32 Audio Outputs in Logic. I have set limit to 64 in my preferences and it shows up that way in VE Pro stand alone but Logic still shows 32 outs. Am I missing something here? With only 16 stereo pairs for my audio outs there is no need for me to add additional inputs past 16 per instance in Ve Pro/Logic. I haven't yet tried the multiport layer option.



Ryan :D


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 6, 2012)

Dragonwind @ Thu Feb 23 said:


> antoniopandrade @ Thu Feb 23 said:
> 
> 
> > If you replace one of the HDDs on the MMS (Mini Server) with an SSD and put 16GB of RAM in it, I'm pretty sure you could run HS off of it. It's a pretty powerful little machine!



It's not that you can't, it's that you cannot run it, it is that you cannot run _as much_ of HS as on a PC. 

I really now just think of my PC as a better sounding JV -2080 and use it accordingly


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## jleckie (Mar 6, 2012)

Yeah-PLAY is sluggish on my New PC VePro setup too. In fact now that I've taken my HS template off of my VePro instance it takes 5 minutes less to load. Dont need the strings for the score im doing as its all ambient. I have about 8 instances with Omnisphere and it loads FAST. I mean it cooks. If I tried doing on my Mac what Im doing with OMNI on my PC slave with VePro I would bring my MAc to its knees with just ONE instance of Omni running 8 tracks of level 3 complex sounds.

VePro smokes with the right software.


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## IFM (Mar 6, 2012)

I've switched to CS for full time strings and just load a HS patch or two as needed per project. Are you finding a lot of CPU usage using the old method? The layer is just such a PITA when you need to make new templates.


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## whinecellar (Mar 6, 2012)

I'm up to a 300-track template in Logic (32 bit mode) which uses:

(12) 16-channel VEP instances on my 8-core Mac
(8) 16-channel VEP instances on my 2-core iMac
(1) 16-channel VEP instance on my 2-core MacBook Pro

Except for 16 channels of PLAY, 16 channels of Vienna Instruments, 8 channels of Stylus RMX & 8 channels of Omnisphere, all of those above instances are Kontakt-based instruments. All 3 machines are talking via cat6 cable (no audio/MIDI between computers) and the whole shebang runs at a buffer of 128.

It works so well I've frozen everything at Logic 9.1.4, OSX 10.6.7 and whatever version of VEP I was running as of last summer. I'm scared to death of rocking the boat by moving to Lion and/or VEP 5...

Loving life in the meantime!


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## IFM (Mar 6, 2012)

Jim, are you saying you run it the old way with one instance per 16 channels? Albeit cluttered it stil seems the easiest to setup. 
Chris


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## antoniopandrade (Mar 6, 2012)

A couple of updates from a recent template experience for a large project on Logic. VEPro 5 event inputs only kind of work. I had issues with instruments playing only when the sequence was actually playing or recording, not just record enabled. I still can't load as many plug-ins (EQs, compressors, reverbs) as I do on my DP template. It works, but I think that VSL team still needs to polish that a little bit. I've just recently purchased Cubase so I'm going to be trying it out there to see how everything is handled on the VEPro side of thing. 

My 2 cents, DP works better for large templates than Logic at the moment. At least if you're going the event input way. I'm not sure how the multi-port environment route is working as per the last update.

On another note, about PLAY, I have a rather large HS + HB template running off of my PC slave alongside a large amount of Kontakt instruments. It boggles my mind just how much RAM PLAY eats up. I know that you can set up a LASS template using an SSD with very little RAM. I just wish PLAY gave us that option, I'm not sure if it's even possible with the size of these monster patches. I have 32GB on my slave PC and around 22GB is being used just for HS+HB (and this is with just one mic position loaded). I'll probably have to condense my template a bit, but it's a pity, HS is such a great library, I wanna use more of it, and it's just really hard to do that right now!


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## whinecellar (Mar 6, 2012)

Yes indeed Chris, the old way. I didn't even know there was a 'new' way - I've been so busy I haven't been able to pop in here much.

VEP, among its many other benefits, has done such a great job of stretching my machines to their max I don't want to upset the apple cart!


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## jleckie (Mar 6, 2012)

Very intriguing thread. I may just dump HS and go for the CS. I think CS would load fast and it has a lovely tone. Perhaps HS can be used VERY sparingly.


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## IFM (Mar 7, 2012)

antoniopandrade @ Tue Mar 06 said:


> I've just recently purchased Cubase so I'm going to be trying it out there to see how everything is handled on the VEPro side of thing.



It works quite well and you'll love being able to have multiple ports on a single instance of VEP with no fuss. The downside is Cubase (as with all other DAW but Logic) performs worse in OSX than in Win. :( My first sequencer when I moved back to Mac was DP and loved it but with no muting of individual notes and no input buffer (capture last take, etc) I don't go there anymore. 



wintecellar said:


> Yes indeed Chris, the old way. I didn't even know there was a 'new' way - I've been so busy I haven't been able to pop in here much.



Yes indeed we are talking about the event input plugin (which forces VEP to be used on one core) or the new environment layer. THe VSL guys have done a lot of work to get around the limitation of the AU spec. I am going to have to rethink my template too as even though I can put the whole thing on one with either DAW if I have to freeze anything I end up with all or nothing. Using CS and CB means I have one channel per instrument now instead of being spread across multiple channels like I do with Play so I can get away with less instances than I did before.




jleckie said:


> Very intriguing thread. I may just dump HS and go for the CS. I think CS would load fast and it has a lovely tone. Perhaps HS can be used VERY sparingly.



That's pretty much what I did...trying not to get flamed but Kontakt is the only sampler that's got it together on the Mac side so I use it for most of everything I can. I am selling of my PC and have moved HS to the MacPro just so I can load a patch or two when needed. CS has a very similar sound.

Chris


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## Ryan Scully (Mar 7, 2012)

I'm thinking I may just stick with the "old way" of 16 channels per instance and see how well my Mac Pro performs with a large template. I'm not feeling the audio event plugin and the multiport seems like a bit of a hassle too.


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## SvK (Mar 7, 2012)

i never understood why anyone would want to manage one ve pro instance with 50 plus instruments any way.

the way I do it is have one local metaframe with seperate VEs for flutes, reeds, percussion, solostrings.

works out great. and is easy on the eye and a lot less stressful

best,
SvK


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 7, 2012)

SvK @ Wed Mar 07 said:


> i never understood why anyone would want to manage one ve pro instance with 50 plus instruments any way.
> 
> the way I do it is have one local metaframe with seperate VEs for flutes, reeds, percussion, solostrings.
> 
> ...



Because each instance of the server eats CPU, which is why VSL says fewer is better.


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## JT3_Jon (Mar 7, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Mar 07 said:


> Because each instance of the server eats CPU, which is why VSL says fewer is better.



On your host? On your slave? Both?


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## SvK (Mar 8, 2012)

Because each instance of the server eats CPU said:


> not if its local....
> as in on the same machine as DAW.
> its minimal.
> 
> ...


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## IFM (Mar 8, 2012)

I've not really noticed much of a difference. If fact with Logic I'll get a lot higher voice count before the drive limits hit because of the dual buffer. Keeping it all under under one instance means I run out of gas sooner.


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 8, 2012)

Dragonwind @ Thu Mar 08 said:


> I've not really noticed much of a difference. If fact with Logic I'll get a lot higher voice count before the drive limits hit because of the dual buffer. Keeping it all under under one instance means I run out of gas sooner.



That is not my experience.


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