# Question about transcription copyright



## bryla (Jul 27, 2008)

Are there any copyright issues when I do a transcription of an orchestral score? any composition? jazz solo?

I'm thinking about making some available for download.


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## Mike Greene (Jul 27, 2008)

If the piece itself is under copyright, then any transcriptions would also be subject to that copyright.


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## bryla (Jul 27, 2008)

But are jazz improvisations for example copyrighted?


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## JohnG (Jul 27, 2008)

In general, anything that has been rendered to "fixed and tangible form" is copyrighted by the owner. That might be the original artist or a producer who has formally purchased the work.

Fixed and tangible form includes paper publication and recordings.

So the answer, in general, is that you can't make money selling a takedown / transcription of someone else's performance without permission from the copyright holder. Again, that may be the original artist, or a group of "publishers" who own the copyright of the original music, and who usually also own the master recording too (though not always one and the same, as in the case of a cover version of a song).

So I think it's "no."


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## bryla (Jul 27, 2008)

What if I'm not talking selling them - just making them available. like this one: http://www.music.sc.edu/ea/Jazz/transcriptions.html

But okay, I'm thinking of just keeping them for myself


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## midphase (Jul 27, 2008)

Listen....don't listen to us...really don't!

We HAVE to publicly stick to the law....in a way, it was a dumb question to ask in the first place.

You know the answer, we know the answer.

Now...having said that....go and do what you think should be done! The internet exists for the sharing of knowledge, transcriptions of jazz solos can be extremely invaluable to learning how to improvise...in this particular case I have to put on my anarchist hat and say......fuck the law and share away....it's for a good cause!


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## bryla (Jul 27, 2008)

Kays: I really DON'T know the answer, since I'm quite unfamiliar with US law which the compositions I transcribe are under, so just wanted input.

I'm in a way on your side, but I don't want to do it if it in fact IS illegal


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## JohnG (Jul 27, 2008)

In case I was ambiguous before -- unless you own the copyright or it's in the public domain, it is not technically legal [edit: it is against the law] for you to distribute another's content without permission.

If you don't make any money from it, I assume there's a question about damages -- what are the damages if you aren't selling the item or if you are not reducing their sales? If the owner is not currently making money or seeking to make money by selling transcriptions or sheet music of the compositions, there might be relatively small damages, but if they are, then damages could be substantial. Either way, you are diminishing the value of his asset.

And for what it's worth, I totally disagree with disregarding copyright law. I don't share files, music, or other copyrighted material and I think it is morally wrong to take from the creator or owner without permission (except for the usual academic exceptions etc.). Part of our money (royalties) depends on that system. In my case, a huge part. I think we all have a lot at stake with that system and I am surprised to see someone on a composer-oriented forum speak carelessly about it.


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## Frederick Russ (Jul 27, 2008)

midphase @ Sun Jul 27 said:


> f#@k the law and share away....it's for a good cause!



Until you get caught. For instance, Zimmer gets away with it to a point. Then he got sued - again. He's probably better financed than many who frequent these forums and may have a special legal fund to cover him for these kinds of lawsuits. 

In the end however, for most of us, the better call is: don't do it. VI never supports or recommends copyright infringement of any kind. And yeah, I know, although I realize that this is probably said in good humor tongue-in-cheek in standard bad-boy fashion, the sober truth is that the judges and courts aren't laughing.


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## bryla (Jul 27, 2008)

Thanks Frederick,
that clears it up! Then I'll keep all my goodies to my self


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## artsoundz (Jul 27, 2008)

I would contact the professor at the link you provided. Being legal is the best advice however-Jazz has traditionally shared transcriptions as an edicational tool. Historically, Jazz has depended on sharing transcriptions so I believe you may find a grey area in there. Contacting a school(your link0 could give you better insight as I imagine this subject has come up with them.

Let us know what they say.


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## bryla (Jul 27, 2008)

I have written him a mail now. Hope he doesn't think I'm a lawyer or something


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## midphase (Jul 27, 2008)

I understand all of you guys' concerns. But this is a kid who is just transcribing some jazz solos and wants to share them with other enthusiasts. Especially when there is no "legitimate" way to obtain them in the first place.

Of course it's illegal....but have you ever heard of The Real Book....that is illegal too! And John...you're going to tell me that you never used it? When I went to school, that thing was the bible for all of us!

Look, what Bryla is trying to do is different than what people do when they're posting the latest Fergie CD online or pirating Iron Man...if you can't see that, I think you have really lost sight of what being an artist is in the first place!


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## midphase (Jul 27, 2008)

"Until you get caught. For instance, Zimmer gets away with it to a point. Then he got sued - again. He's probably better financed than many who frequent these forums and may have a special legal fund to cover him for these kinds of lawsuits."

Frederick,

With all due respect...this is apples and oranges in a huge way...and you know it!

Zimmer got caught plagiarizing copyrighted material, and making a bundle with it on a hugely grossing film...come on, you really want to compare what Bryla is doing to that?


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 27, 2008)

Stop giving bad advice.

The fair use act of the copyright act in the US covers some of these issues. If he takes down a solo and learns from it, that's fine. It's ONLY fine in school with written permission from the publisher.

Once posted on the web, it's now published and that's copyright infringement.

You're advocating and promoting stealing creative from another creative person without paying them. 

Once a jazz improvisation is recorded, it's a fixed tone. It's under copyright.


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## midphase (Jul 27, 2008)

I'm not giving bad advice Peter...I'm fucking expressing an opinion so back off!

I did state that it is illegal! If you don't want to do it, don't do it! 

You know as well as everyone else around here that is getting so worked up that this guy's intentions are not as shady as you're making them out to sound.

He's got the info...now let's leave him alone to make up his own mind!


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## bryla (Jul 27, 2008)

Thank you all of you, for both point of views. Here is what Bert Ligon from the link wrote:

I may be taking a chance, but I don't worry about the copyright issue. I am posting the transcriptions on a university website dedicated to teaching, scholarship, and research. A transcription represents a short excerpt from one smaller section (a complete tune) from a larger work (a complete CD). I am not profiting from it in anyway. If anything, I am encouraging sales of the recordings at no charge to the artists. I also believe that the copyrighted work is the recording of the performance, and not necessarily my interpretation on paper of what that may be. All transcriptions are a compromised suggestion of what the actual music is or was, and not the actual music. 

Section 107 of the US copyright law sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair: 

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
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## artsoundz (Jul 28, 2008)

bryla @ Sun Jul 27 said:


> My key point as I consider it, that no matter how precise I transcribe it, it will only be MY interpretation of a work



I'm not sure I agree. How do you arrive at that? afterall, transcribing a solo IS a form of copying. If your ear is good,it becomes precise.If you add your own notes,then THAT's an interpretation. 

Obviously, the legalities are real and should be considered. But dont sweat sharing a few transcribed solos w/peers. Maybe to be carefeul-dont post on a site. Just refer to it and have guests ask for it. Just thinking out loud here...


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## bryla (Jul 28, 2008)

But how is this different from when my students (yes Kays - a 'kid' has students  ) want to play some kind of tune, and I show them - not on paper?


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## midphase (Jul 28, 2008)

It's not Bryla....just follow your heart....knowledge should never be stifled by law!


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## artsoundz (Jul 28, 2008)

bryla @ Mon Jul 28 said:


> But how is this different from when my students (yes Kays - a 'kid' has students  ) want to play some kind of tune, and I show them - not on paper?



I'm specifically refering to publicly accessible downloading. Even the professor admits he may be on borrowed time. However, it's about intent as well. If you were to make it accesisble ONLY to your students (password?) then your intent would be more of an obvious educational nature.

besides. it's your students that should be transcribing. : )


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