# East West Hollywood Orchestra: compared to VSL and Spitfire?



## newcreation08 (Mar 27, 2016)

Hi!

I am on the verge of using East West's Easter deal on Hollywood Orchestra. 
My question would be: 

With strings i already have VSL Dimension and Appassionata Strings, Spitfire Mural and Sabel, plus Cinematic Strings. 
Woods: VSL and Cinesamples
Brass: VSL and Cinesamples

Anybody, who knows all of them and can tell me, if its still worth in terms of additional sound and articulations, to buy the East West package?

Many thanks!


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## JohnG (Mar 27, 2016)

Hi there,

Maybe you could give a little more information and you'd get better guidance:

1. Do you already have orchestral percussion? Do you _want_ orchestral percussion if you don't have it?
2. What kind of music do you write in general?
3. Is this more a hobby or something you want to pursue as a profession?
4. Is there something about the libraries you already own that you feel is missing?
5. Do you run on Mac or PC, and do you have the extra computer resources to absorb new EW libraries? They are excellent; the other three are more or less regular in what they ask of the computer, but Hollywood Strings is very demanding.

Personally, I like to have a wide variety of sounds and timbres, so it's tough to say "no, you have enough."

[note: I have received free products from East West]


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## newcreation08 (Mar 27, 2016)

Hi JohnG!

Thanks for your reply!

1. I already have EW Orchestra Percussion Diamond (the only East West Orchestra Lib. + Cinesamples Percussion (all 4).
2. I would say my music is orchestral, epic, cinematic. I like big orchestral sounds (as i am sitting in a symphony orchestra myself for almost 3 decades )
3. I started this project last year. So till now it has become a passionate hobby but who knows. I would like it to become more than that.
4. Missing ... well ... i realized, that its always good to have many options to choose from. VSL have great articulations and are very playable, but sound a little thin. Spitfire have a much brighter sound, but sometimes its harder to get the right articulations out of them. Thats why i was asking, if EW would be worth an additional option.
5. I run an iMac i7, 4Ghz Fusion drive, 32GB Ram. All samples are on external HD + SSD drive. My EW Percussion i first had on the external HD (7200 rpm) and they loaded very slowly from that drive. But since i put them on the SSD, they work extremely fast.

So do you think, without a slave machine EW is too demanding?


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## novaburst (Mar 27, 2016)

What is wrong with Appassionata that is a huge sound of string you have,

Its clear your workstation is very powerful and its easy to determine that even if east west are power hungry
(H W O) looks like your setup will handle it quite easy.

Not a bad word on this forum about the sound of east west products, If you can get them go for it from this end there should not be anything stopping you, you have a work hug of a machine.


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## newcreation08 (Mar 27, 2016)

novaburst said:


> What is wrong with Appassionata that is a huge sound of string you have,


Appassionata are not really my favorites and i very rarely use them, don't know why. Somehow their sound is not so much to my taste, also articulations are very little. Compared to them, i like the Spitfire Mural much better. 
So if you think my workstation is strong enough, i maybe just should get them. As i have already the Orchestra Percussion from them, it reduces the prize anyway further ...


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## JohnG (Mar 27, 2016)

Well, given what you've written, I would definitely get East West, if only for the strings and brass (I don't have the EW new winds). 

For strings, I use Mural, Sable, and LASS in my template as well, but I like having EW because it sounds quite different. I find EW excellent for runs if you write those, and its short articulations give you extra choices. I use all these libraries when I write, especially if it's a situation in which the samples will not all be replaced, or even in circumstances when they will be "sweetened" but not discarded.

The brass also has a different sound from the superb BML Spitfire libraries, so again it's for variety, not to replace.

I have been a fan of EW since their first large orchestral library in 2004 or so, and I continue to enjoy using them. The recorded samples are not "sanded smooth" which at times is not what one wants, but overall I'll take the liveliness of these samples over some other libraries any time.

I am a huge fan of Spitfire -- huge! -- but EW offers a different sound.

The only thing is that Hollywood Strings is really very demanding if you want to use the "powerful system patches" that have so many layers and legato -- caveat emptor etc. You can use just the "light" versions of the sounds, however, and those are far less demanding -- dramatically less so. I have my HS samples on a PCI-raid SSD setup which is very fast. It cost a bomb when I bought it but they are vastly less expensive today.

[not: I have received free products from East West]


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## Ashermusic (Mar 27, 2016)

In my view, here is what it boils down to:

1. Spitfire is recorded in a lovely ambience but you are stuck with it. (I don't think personally the close mics sound so good.) The Hollywood Orchestra is pretty dry so you add your own ambience, but less sterile than VSL.

2. To get as complete and orchestra with as many articulations, you have to spend about 4x as much with Spitfire, although you have a head start as you already own some. CineSamples would also be considerably more than the Hollywood Orchestra for similar content. Ditto Berlin Orchestra.

3. You are going to want a powerful PC slave to run a full Diamond orchestra. I know Spitfire is among the more demanding of the Kontakt based libraries, but probably less than the Hollywood Orchestra, especially Hollywood Strings. VSL is less demanding than either.

So you have IMHO a lot of excellent choices, all with very different design philosophies. Personally, even if I had not worked for EW and been given the Hollywood Orchestra for free, it would have been my choice, which is why I spent my own money on a slave PC. But I totally respect those who prefer one of the others.


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## procreative (Mar 27, 2016)

I own HW Strings, Brass and Woodwinds Diamond.

1. Strings definitely have the most articulations available, occasional design quirks such as only flautando on V2 not V1. Like most libraries to cut budgets some instruments have a greater range of antics than others.

2. If I was buying again, not sure would bother with Diamond for Strings as honestly of the above 3 the difference in Mics is negligible to my ears and on all 3 titles the Surround/Balcony Mics are almost pointless given that it was recorded in a large studio rather than a concert hall.

3. You need a super powerful system to run a complete orchestra. I have 2 slave PCs via VEP and it uses SATA3 SSDs and I have Strings on 1 and the rest on the other. Prior to that on one machine I had clicks and pops and other nastiness if I tried running more than about 8 tracks of EW Play stuff.


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## AllanH (Mar 27, 2016)

I consider HO Orchestra one of the best purchases I've made. It took a fair bit of work to make it sound like I wanted, but there is no doubt that the sampling is detailed and very well done. It does not have the beautiful ambiance of some of the Spitfire libraries, but that also means HO mixes easily into any reverb/room. Highly recommended.


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## newcreation08 (Mar 27, 2016)

Many thanks for all your detailed answers. I appreciate that very much and is helping me a lot in my decision! I think, sooner or later, a slave must enter the picture anyway


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## novaburst (Mar 28, 2016)

newcreation08 said:


> Many thanks for all your detailed answers. I appreciate that very much and is helping me a lot in my decision! I think, sooner or later, a slave must enter the picture anyway



Your right there about slave computer but go get your library you have a good system,

I am also preparing for a slave computer for the very near future I think with this type of music its the only way forward and makes a lot of sense

At the moment I am ok as when I do get into trouble I just start converting the midi files into audio files and mute or remove the midi file it came from,


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## newcreation08 (Mar 28, 2016)

novaburst said:


> Your right there about slave computer but go get your library you have a good system,
> 
> I am also preparing for a slave computer for the very near future I think with this type of music its the only way forward and makes a lot of sense
> 
> At the moment I am ok as when I do get into trouble I just start converting the midi files into audio files and mute or remove the midi file it came from,


I got it the Library  
Yes, thats exactly the way i am doing it also ... just bounce a region in place, in case it causes troubles ....
Thanks!


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## novaburst (Mar 28, 2016)

newcreation08 said:


> I got it the Library


nice hope you do more satisfied music creation, when you get a chance to live with it let us know how it is


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## newcreation08 (Mar 28, 2016)

Thanks novaburst! I will do my best.


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## tenyuhuang (Mar 28, 2016)

I didn't have VSL so I'm not at liberty to compare Hollywood Strings with it, but I remembered Daniel James did a comparison between LASS and Hollywood Diamond. Check it on his channel, it may give you some hint on the strings part :D


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## Ashermusic (Mar 28, 2016)

tenyuhuang said:


> I didn't have VSL so I'm not at liberty to compare Hollywood Strings with it, but I remembered Daniel James did a comparison between LASS and Hollywood Diamond. Check it on his channel, it may give you some hint on the strings part :D


Do not check it out, IMHO, as it is a very unfair representation because HS is not used how HS is designed to be used. It is not a library for those who want instant gratification.


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## newcreation08 (Mar 28, 2016)

tenyuhuang said:


> I didn't have VSL so I'm not at liberty to compare Hollywood Strings with it, but I remembered Daniel James did a comparison between LASS and Hollywood Diamond. Check it on his channel, it may give you some hint on the strings part :D


Thanks tenyuhuang, i will check it out!


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## newcreation08 (Mar 28, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Do not check it out, IMHO, as it is a very unfair representation because HS is not used how HS is designed to be used. It is not a library for those who want instant gratification.


I bought it anyway today and am just installing it. So ... it will work its way anyway 
Thanks!


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## dcoscina (Mar 28, 2016)

I own a lot the libraries you mentioned and I also have the Hollywood orchestra Silver and Gold series. I think they are excellent. I've been able to get terrific results just from the Silver collection. To me, the sounds are clear and pristine. Because I don't have Platinum I use Spaces to treat the sounds and find it very helpful. There are tons of articulations and they all sound uniformly great. I do film score and concert work type pieces.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Mar 28, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> It is not a library for those who want *instant gratification*.



That's an admirably slick way to describe halfway reasonable loading times.


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## newcreation08 (Mar 28, 2016)

dcoscina said:


> I own a lot the libraries you mentioned and I also have the Hollywood orchestra Silver and Gold series. I think they are excellent. I've been able to get terrific results just from the Silver collection. To me, the sounds are clear and pristine. Because I don't have Platinum I use Spaces to treat the sounds and find it very helpful. There are tons of articulations and they all sound uniformly great. I do film score and concert work type pieces.


As i am reading this, i am just trying them out right now  I think, i am going to like them! Really lots of articulations and possibilities to use them! A great new member in my Library-family!


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## Ashermusic (Mar 28, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> That's an admirably slick way to describe halfway reasonable loading times.



Yes, the big patches do take a long time to load. And it is a library that the more you know about how the real instruments work, the better you can make it sound.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Mar 28, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Yes, the big patches do take a long time to load. And it is a library that the more you know about how the real instruments work, the better you can make it sound.



The sound is glorious! The fact that I'm willing to put up with the scandalous offense that is PLAY really says a lot about the qualities of the library itself. But God, how I wish that this hellish contraption got reworked and brought up to standard one day ... but I guess that's very unlikely at this point?


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## Ashermusic (Mar 28, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> The sound is glorious! The fact that I'm willing to put up with the scandalous offense that is PLAY really says a lot about the qualities of the library itself. But God, how I wish that this hellish contraption got reworked and brought up to standard one day ... but I guess that's very unlikely at this point?



Look, I no longer work for EW so I am not obligated to say anything but that is pure hyperbole.

Does Play give you all the features that a full sampler like Kontakt does? No. Do the big instruments take quite a while to load? Yes, (But so do the big Kontakt ones, like Kirk Hunter Concert Brass 2, Embertone Friedlander violin and Herring clarinet.) Have there been updates that were dogs? Yes.

But the Mixer is WAY better than Kontakt's, as is the browser, as is its method of creating and configuring multi-ouputs, as is its ability to redirect libraries location.. And in recent years, it runs fine, especially on PC.

So "hellish contraption" is a frankly ridiculous description.


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## dcoscina (Mar 28, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Look, I no longer work for EW so I am not obligated to say anything but that is pure hyperbole.
> 
> Does Play give you all the features that a full sampler like Kontakt does? No. Do the big instruments take quite a while to load? Yes, (But so do the big Kontakt ones, like Kirk Hunter Concert Brass 2, Embertone Friedlander violin and Herring clarinet.) Have there been updates that were dogs? Yes.
> 
> ...


I agrer


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## Daniel James (Mar 28, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Do not check it out, IMHO, as it is a very unfair representation because HS is not used how HS is designed to be used. It is not a library for those who want instant gratification.



Well lets be honest, The point of the video was to first off show what each library sounds like out of the box compared to other libraries. The only way to do that fairly was to load the best patches each library had. And play the exact same line on each. If the aim was to be which library sounds the best after an hours work then that would be a different video. It also showed the speed at which a PLAY library loads in on a pretty common if not a little beefier machine than the people watching. Granted at least now PLAY loads in the background, but is still unplayable until it loads.

As for 'Its not a library for instant gratification' : In a nut shell, thats exactly what my video is saying. If you want it to work for you, you have to put in effort to make it so, where as with the competition, not so much. I could literally make a bongo sound like an epic taiko with some effort and time but I wouldn't release the former and say its the latter and then compare it to some awesome 8dio perc lib that sounds great out of the box lol....and then when someone compares the two have me defend it by saying its not designed that way, its not for those looking for instant gratification.

So yeah if a library isnt putting its best foot forward with tone and loading times. Then someone does a video comparing the first foot forward of libraries, don't be surprised when yours comes out not looking the best. 

So yeah go watch it if you want to see what else is out there a bit. TBH it never hurts to have more than one lib for layering anyways.

-DJ


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## Ashermusic (Mar 28, 2016)

Nonsense. Here is the analogy :a guy drives a car in a video that has automatic transmission and says, "See how smoothly it drives." 

Then he starts to drive a car with manual transmission but he doesn't know how to use a clutch to shift and says, "This doesn't drive as smoothly." 
The problem was not HS, it was your ineptness with it.


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## Daniel James (Mar 28, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Nonsense. Here is the analogy :a guy drives a car in a video that has automatic transmission and says, "See how smoothly it drives."
> 
> Then he starts to drive a car with manual transmission but he doesn't know how to use a clutch to shift and says, "This doesn't drive as smoothly."
> The problem was not HS, it was your ineptness with it.



Explain to me again how my ineptness caused the slow load times. Or made using the exact same midi data to compare the libraries raw tone one by one, an unfair process? I never claimed the video to be an in-depth look at each library, just my initial impressions. If HS comes out the box working and playing like ass thats not my ineptness, that was on EW. I can make any of those libraries sound as good as I need, I have no doubt, Other libraries get me where I needed to be faster, with less hurdles, but that wasn't even the point of the video, like I said it was comparing how each library put its best foot forward.....HS just managed to stick its in dog shit....which is not my fault.

-DJ


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## Ashermusic (Mar 28, 2016)

Yes, the load times were slow, fair enough but.. You had bad patch choices for starters. You performed them poorly secondly. 


Folks, do I really need to do a short video to show how good it can sound out of the box when in the hands of someone who knows how to use it or after all these years is it now common knowledge?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 28, 2016)

The problem is that usually the same MIDI doesn't work right on two different libraries. They don't respond the same way.


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## Daniel James (Mar 28, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Yes, the load times were slow, fair enough but.. You had bad patch choices for starters. You performed them poorly secondly.
> 
> 
> Folks, do I really need to do a short video to show how good it can sound out of the box when in the hands of someone who knows how to use it or after all these years is it now common knowledge?



What patches were more appropriate? If I remember correctly I used the bow change legato ones which sound great! I still don't understand all this hatred towards me Jay. Again its been a while but if I remember right, in the video I think I go on to say the sound of HS is amazing, but PLAY sours the experience with its slow load times and less efficient use of RAM...which you agree yourself constantly are things that are facts. It sometimes feels like your dislike for me overrides your ability to actually read what I say even when its agreeing with you on things lol.

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Mar 28, 2016)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The problem is that usually the same MIDI doesn't work right on two different libraries. They don't respond the same way.



Absolutely true, but it was the most fair way I could think to have the two libraries play raw samples back so we could hear how they sound side by side. Again you can make anything work with some effort but the point of the video was to show the raw samples and the engine loadtimes/ram usage etc. I never did an in depth 'lets make all the things pretty' video.....mostly because of the abusive messages I got from EW fans after that video.

-DJ


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## Ashermusic (Mar 28, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> What patches were more appropriate? If I remember correctly I used the bow change legato ones which sound great! I still don't understand all this hatred towards me Jay. Again its been a while but if I remember right, in the video I think I go on to say the sound of HS is amazing, but PLAY sours the experience with its slow load times and less efficient use of RAM...which you agree yourself constantly are things that are facts. It sometimes feels like your dislike for me overrides your ability to actually read what I say even when its agreeing with you on things lol.
> 
> -DJ



I don't hate you Daniel, I hate your lazy approach to things like this. Had you chosen the basic Legato Slur patches and played the parts in, or really understood how they are designed to work, you would have had a better result. The bow change patches are the hardest ones to control.

Once again, you can't do that and expect it to be fair anymore than you can expect a manual transmission to behave like an automatic transmission. HS is best as a player's library, Nick is a good player. TJ is a good player, I am a good player. If you are going to program MIDI in, then you have to understand how the different patches react to cc11 with some patches while cc1 with some others and in tandem with still some others. Which with the patch choices you made, clearly you did not. There was nothing fair about it.

You are right about one thing, some libraries do sound better even in the hands of an inept user, like you were at that point at least, and HS is not one of them. 

The proof is that there are people in this thread who just bought it and are _already_ happy with what they are hearing. What does that tell you?


.


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## Daniel James (Mar 28, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I don't hate you Daniel, I hate your lazy approach to things like this. Had you chosen the basic Legato Slur patches and played the parts in, or really understood how they are designed to work, you would have had a better result. The bow change patches are the hardest ones to control.
> 
> Once again, you can't do that and expect it to be fair anymore than you can expect a manual transmission to behave like an automatic transmission. HS is best as a player's library, Nick is a good player. TJ is a good player, I am a good player. If you are going to program MIDI in, then you have to understand how the different patches react to cc11 with some patches while cc1 with some others and in tandem with still some others. Which with the patch choices you made, clearly you did not. There was nothing fair about it.
> 
> ...



Like I keep saying, Its the most fair comparison I could create to show how the raw sounds stack against each other AND I still go on to say that HS sound the better of the two. So again I fail to see why you take such an issue with the video, HS sounds great, PLAY is slow to load and uses more RAM....where is the contention. And you car comparison is a little off, its more like I was expecting an automatic then receiving a manual....both of which I can drive but its not as simple to use as all my other automatics, which I can choose to drive instead of the manual. But thats beside the point, I think HS sounds great and as I say in the video it would be my absolute goto if it was a Kontakt instrument, but even still the performance of PLAY doesn't stand up to Kontakt libraries which these days can offer you a comparable sound (if not better depending on taste) with faster load times, less ram footprint and is easier to use. Hehe again feel free to call me an inept composer all you like, I will always let my skills be judged by the work I produce, but I still think just having the same midi data for each library was the easiest way to show how a patch sounded raw (the aim wasn't to make it sound good, just raw)

-DJ


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 28, 2016)

> Nick is a good player



That may be overstating it.  I'm a keyboard-as-tool player, meaning I'm good enough to play parts in and edit them so nobody knows.

You and I believe TJ are real keyboard players.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 28, 2016)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That may be overstating it.  I'm a keyboard-as-tool player, meaning I'm good enough to play parts in and edit them so nobody knows.
> 
> You and I believe TJ are real keyboard players.



Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant Nick Phoenix. ☺️

Anyway my original advice stands: avoid that video unless you want to know exactly what _not_ to expect from HS if you develop even a modicum of skill using it.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 28, 2016)

Ouch!


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## newcreation08 (Mar 28, 2016)

Wow .. a hot discussion going on here, during i had my sound sleep in a calm Austrian night 

Well, it think there are just different approaches and tastes of different people. But still thanks to all of you of pointing out the pros and contras of the libraries! I experienced, that for different musical pieces and styles, one anyway needs different sounds + layering of different libraries. So its always good, to have as many options as possible in ones pocket 

Ashermusic: thanks a lot for your critical approach to the issue. Although i bought Hollywood Percussion and Choir already some time ago, i not really used them a lot and are not so familiar with using the play machine in the right way (just loading an instrument in a track, thats it till now). If you happen to have some links where this is explained more detailed, i would be grateful to you!

Daniel James: although i have not watched this particular video of yours yet, i am still very grateful to you. As i started to become active in the VI composer field last year, i came across your videos right in the beginning, and they gave me a lot of inspiration and help, how to work with virtual instruments, and which libraries to buy .... and i spent a small fortune on that in the meantime, haha! Many thanks!

So ... wish you all a nice and peaceful day!!! Greetings from a sunny morning in Salzburg!


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## OleJoergensen (Mar 29, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Yes, the load times were slow, fair enough but.. You had bad patch choices for starters. You performed them poorly secondly.
> 
> 
> Folks, do I really need to do a short video to show how good it can sound out of the box when in the hands of someone who knows how to use it or after all these years is it now common knowledge?


It would be great!


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## lumcas (Mar 29, 2016)

OleJoergensen said:


> It would be great!


+1


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## procreative (Mar 29, 2016)

I can see both sides of this mini argument, however:

1. At the time of that original video, although it was a simplistic dismissal of the library, DJ was correct about the Play experience. It took a long time for Play to behave and when HS was first released most definitely could not cope. But the statement that it did not sound as good as LASS was very subjective.

2. Even though DJ in my eyes is very respected both for his insightful reviews and his work, at the time I think his rig was very underpowered for what he was trying to do. The "recommended specs" on the product page were way below what you realistically needed to play a half decent collection of lines. Personally I went on a whole journey of expense on my main DAW Mac - upgrading RAM, upgrading to SSDs, upgrading to SATA3. None of it was quite enough juice until I got a PC slave and VEP.

I am sure the newer Macs can probably handle it, but back in 2010? I think (but cannot state with authority) the two real issues as to why Play VIs can be so heavy duty are 1. The number of dynamic layers and 2. The compression techniques of individual sample files (or lack of) compared to Kontakt.

Question is whether you need to use so many dynamic layers (referring particularly to the Sus/Leg patches) where there are many layers for both vibrato and dynamics. Often you are effectively loading 12-16 voices per note.

I do still think HS stands up very well in many areas, even though it could do with some GUI/functionality tweaks.

I think the main problem in the last 2-3 years is that the low price they are selling it at is enabling purchasers at the beginning of the VI journey to buy it that probably have inadequate systems and do not have the finances to change that.


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## Daniel James (Mar 29, 2016)

procreative said:


> I can see both sides of this mini argument, however:
> 
> 1. At the time of that original video, although it was a simplistic dismissal of the library, DJ was correct about the Play experience. It took a long time for Play to behave and when HS was first released most definitely could not cope. But the statement that it did not sound as good as LASS was very subjective.
> 
> ...



I actually say I like the tone of HS in the video (I honestly don't get why people think I am saying I don't like the sound, I love it, just wish it was in Kontakt). But yes its a subjective field.

Also the recommended system specs for HS when I got it were much lower than the machine I had, I vaguely remember this being a big point of debate back then.

One of my major points back then (and would still apply today I believe) is that there are string libraries that sound just as good and play just as well in Kontakt that don't require me to purchase a slave machine or any other hardware in order to use it at its full potential. You still have posts these days about people (particularly on mac) struggling to successfully use PLAY (yes Jay we know it works for you) and one of the points I still contest is that while the sounds of HS is fantastic its not worth the extra hardware investment when there are alternatives which match or even out do it easily on the system you already have.

-DJ


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## Anders Wall (Mar 29, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> One of my major points back then (and would still apply today I believe) is that there are string libraries that sound just as good and play just as well in Kontakt that don't require me to purchase a slave machine or any other hardware in order to use it at its full potential. You still have posts these days about people (particularly on mac) struggling to successfully use PLAY (yes Jay we know it works for you) and one of the points I still contest is that while the sounds of HS is fantastic its not worth the extra hardware investment when there are alternatives which match or even out do it easily on the system you already have.
> 
> -DJ


+1
My biggest negative point to Play and why I tell all my students not to get the EW-stuff is the fact that you really can't edit their instruments. Combined with a "different" way of running "support", you're stuck with their sometimes faulty programming leaving you patches unplayable and unusable.
EW have been "mentioning" a PRO player, with editing possibilities, for ages but as far as I know none have surfaced.
Great sounding samples in a not so great sampleplayer.
Like driving a car without gears, stuck in reverse.
Best,
Anders


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## Ashermusic (Mar 29, 2016)

I would only make two final points:

To get a comparable package that is a s complete and sounds as good as the Hollywood Orchestra from CineSamples, Orchestral Tools, or Spitfire, ALL of whom make fine libraries that sound very different from the Hollywood Orchestra (better, worse, or just different is subjective, you know what I think) you will have to pay between 3-5 times more AND you will have to buy Kontakt. Which pays for a slave machine

Play does not give you as much control as Kontakt, but it is superior in the ways I listed earlier and hardly stuck in reverse, Anders. Stuck in drive, maybe


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Mar 29, 2016)

The thing is: all the much-criticized shortcomings have just because defensible because the price point nowadays is unbeatable. The trade-off actually makes some kind of sense now.

What you get is great sounding samples for a fraction of the price of comparable products, but it comes at the cost of an oddly inefficient and primitive sample player that, due to its complete lack of features, doesn't allow any kind of workflow adjustment and customisation that's totally standard nowadays. Compared what VSL, OT and Spitfire are doing in terms of functionality - EW worfkow, by comparison, is so mundane and one-sided.

Being able to buy pro-grade samples that cheap is obviously a great thing, but I'd rather see EW do some product care instead of dumping their stuff cheap. At least the basics ... I mean, come on, assignable keyswitches and custom CC assign shouldn't be a problem in 2016.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 29, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> The thing is: all the much-criticized shortcomings have just because defensible because the price point nowadays is unbeatable. The trade-off actually makes some kind of sense now. What you get is great sounding samples for a fraction of the price of comparable products, but it comes at the cost of an oddly inefficient and primitive sample player that, due to its complete lack of features, doesn't allow any kind of workflow adjustment and customisation that's totally standard nowadays. Being able to buy pro-grade samples that cheap is obviously a great thing, but I'd rather see EW do some product care instead of dumping their stuff cheap. At least the basics ... I mean, come on, assignable keyswitches and custom CC assign shouldn't be a problem in 2016.



I don't disagree (with the exceptions I listed earlier where Play is clearly better than Kontakt), but all I got back from them for feedback was that they are working on Play Pro and making good progress.


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## procreative (Mar 29, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> Also the recommended system specs for HS when I got it were much lower than the machine I had, I vaguely remember this being a big point of debate back then.



Agreed and I said that in my post. And that is still a major gripe even now as many current buyers are drawn by the price without a real idea they are going to need a super computer to run it.



Ashermusic said:


> To get a comparable package that is a s complete and sounds as good as the Hollywood Orchestra from CineSamples, Orchestral Tools, or Spitfire, ALL of whom make fine libraries that sound very different from the Hollywood Orchestra (better, worse, or just different is subjective, you know what I think) you will have to pay between 3-5 times more AND you will have to buy Kontakt. Which pays for a slave machine



Thing is for current purchasers that may be true, but as little as 1-2 years ago probably not and those poor early adopters in East West land were rewarded for their early faith by paying 4 x the current price for the whole orchestra just for Hollywood Strings.

It took me a long time to get it running stable. I could play 1 or 2 patches okay from day one but trying to load up a template with them was a non starter. Its all very well that they run okay when set up as slaves but even though this does work well its still not a very simple way to work. Plus thats 2 or more computers with fans and power supplies choking the silence (unless like the top pros you can afford a machine room).


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## procreative (Mar 29, 2016)

I might add that for me lack of keyswitches is not a deal breaker as for my main orchestral libraries I prefer the 1 articulation/1 track approach as its so much easier to see what is playing what. Its that trade off between track count/remembering keyswitches/memory footprint/editing midi etc.

Have tried various midi keyswitching macros (including Skis early freebie version) and decided trying to remember what keyswitch did what vs loads of tracks was not worth it (especially as Logic now has Track Stacks).


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## Ashermusic (Mar 29, 2016)

Procreative, I have been running it well on a single slave PC for over 5 years now. And I can tell you the names of some forum members who will vouch for that.

And if I abandoned HO tomorrow and used exclusively Kontakt stuff (and it would be the Berlin stuff, btw) I would still want a slave PC.


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## procreative (Mar 29, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Procreative, I have been running it well on a single slave PC for over 5 years now. And I can tell you the names of some forum members who will vouch for that.
> 
> And if I abandoned HO tomorrow and used exclusively Kontakt stuff (and it would be the Berlin stuff, btw) I would still want a slave PC.



Cannot disagree on how good a Slave PC can be, in fact it was your article on using one that got me started researching the idea. However for it to be of use for HWS it needs to be a pretty decent spec with lots of RAM.

However personally I still find some aspects of VEP irritating. Such as waiting for server connections to unload/reload when switching between projects.

Back to the product itself, I still maintain that the difference between Mic positions in Strings is not as dramatic as the other HW titles (particularly Brass) and that the Balcony Mics to my ears add very little (especially compared to libraries recorded in Orchestral Scoring Studios or Concert Halls).

But it is still my main Strings library, mainly due to the wealth of articulations and consistency.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 29, 2016)

procreative said:


> Cannot disagree on how good a Slave PC can be, in fact it was your article on using one that got me started researching the idea. However for it to be of use for HWS it needs to be a pretty decent spec with lots of RAM.
> 
> However personally I still find some aspects of VEP irritating. Such as waiting for server connections to unload/reload when switching between projects.
> 
> ...



By today's standards, my PC is fairly modest. VEP connections don't bother me. It only takes 10 minutes and at my age, I need to use the bathroom generally anyway 

I agree about the HS mic positions. I usually use just the Mids, occasionally just the Mains. The UAD Oceanway plug-in changes the sound more when I want that than other mic positions.


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## JohnG (Mar 29, 2016)

First off, I love the sound of HS. I love the sound of Mural and LASS and other libraries too, but each one is different. I don't agree that they are all "just as good."

It seems that in this thread some people are repeating performance complaints from five or even seven years ago. The average slave computer is mighty powerful today, and I am using SSDs for nearly all my libraries, not just EW. There are maybe a dozen threads here with system specs for computers with multiple cores, 4.0GHz speed, and SSDs. For a good bit less than $2,000.

If you have a less robust system, simply use the less-than-maximum patches. They still sound great, load incredibly fast etc. You don't have to use the most powerful patches all the time for every note. I don't use all mic positions constantly in _any_ library. Besides, for "regular" use the sus string patches sound absolutely awesome. You want every patch using multiple mics, legato and portamento, and 12 layers? Then in that case you need a strong-ish computer -- although such a computer is actually fairly average these days compared with when the library was released.

Many of the composers here admire major-league composers who use five, ten, a dozen computers -- some more. Most TV guys I know use somewhere between two and four, and many have more than that. Given that people's heroes use all that hardware, it seems actually perplexing to me that people complain about performance for this or any library. 

[note: I have received free products from East West]


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## SymphonicSamples (Mar 29, 2016)

EW's Hollywood Orchestra is a monster with many faces. And Spitfire , at least the parts I own is superb, both capable of complex writing. I still remember reading a thread years back where T.B mentioning that they had adaptive legato with Hollywood Strings in Play way back when, but one can safely assume it would have been very taxing on cpu/hdd's back in 2010. Now moving along to 2016, that would be a nice update. In a perfect world you take the best parts from all that fits your internal sonic palette and budget


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## Daniel James (Mar 29, 2016)

JohnG said:


> First off, I love the sound of HS. I love the sound of Mural and LASS and other libraries too, but each one is different. I don't agree that they are all "just as good."
> If you have a less robust system, simply use the less-than-maximum patches.
> [note: I have received free products from East West]



I think the point here is that sure you could load the less than maximum patches or instead use a Kontakt based string lib which you can already use on your existing machine to its full potential. I too love the sound of HS but tone wise it has nothing that blows away the competition, however with the competition you have more flexibility with what you can do with the libraries, what with all the developments and advancements in Kontakt scripting. 

And with regards to the PLAY engine complaints being outdated... I own both HS and HB, they both still run like ass for me, even on SSDs! I had a project the other day where I loaded in a single 6 horn legato which not only introduced clicks and pops, it decided to crash the project. But of course any problems I have with the library is just me somehow trying to sabotage PLAY's reputation as always lol

-DJ


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## Ashermusic (Mar 29, 2016)

I guess John and I, not to mention the many, many others here who over the last year have written "Play runs fine here" are just magically blessed, because of course, it could not be a system specific issue with you Daniel.


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## JohnG (Mar 29, 2016)

Daniel you are doing something wrong, or loading something wrong, or you have some piece of software that is holding you back, or something else. The software works and has worked for me in Vista, Snow Leopard, Windows 7, Windows 10, Lion, Mavericks....

But just keep repeating that it doesn't work "for you" and that you are a "professional," add "lol" to your posts to show you're a Good Fellow. You say over and over that HS sounds more or less equivalent to other string libraries and I disagree, as do others.

Once you come up with an explanation as to how PLAY could work on, for me, five different computers with different drives and different OS, both Windows and Mac, over six or seven years, and yet somehow not work "for you," I'll be all ears.


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## Daniel James (Mar 29, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I guess John and I, not to mention the many, many others here who over the last year have written "Play runs fine here" are just magically blessed, because of course, it could not be a system specific issue with you Daniel.


Yup must just be me and the 4 system I have tried it on.

-DJ


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## Ashermusic (Mar 29, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> Yup must just be me and the 4 system I have tried it on.
> 
> -DJ



Well take your ego out of it for a minute and answer this: which is more likely, all the people saying that for quite a while it runs fine being magically blessed or you doing something wrong, as John G. suggests?


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## WindcryMusic (Mar 29, 2016)

I'd just like to observe that I, for one, can't/won't run a slave PC even though I have hardware available that could be used for one, because VEPro requires Pace/iLok, which I won't install on my computers. (There seems to be a lot of casual "you need a slave PC" talk hereabouts, which as far as I know means one must be able to use VEPro.) So my only other option is to use libraries and plugins that are capable of running well on a single, standalone DAW system, which means that Kontakt's greater efficiency is very important to me. (Of course, Play itself also requires iLok, so this ends up being simply an additional reason why I won't use it.)


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## guydoingmusic (Mar 29, 2016)




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## guydoingmusic (Mar 29, 2016)

WindcryMusic said:


> VEPro requires Pace/iLok


Ummm... no it doesn't.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 29, 2016)

WindcryMusic said:


> I'd just like to observe that I, for one, can't/won't run a slave PC even though I have hardware available that could be used for one, because VEPro requires Pace/iLok, which I won't install on my computers. (There seems to be a lot of casual "you need a slave PC" talk hereabouts, which as far as I know means one must be able to use VEPro.) So my only other option is to use libraries and plugins that are capable of running well on a single, standalone DAW system, which means that Kontakt's greater efficiency is very important to me. (Of course, Play itself also requires iLok, so this ends up being simply an additional reason why I won't use it.)



No, actually VE Pro requires an eLicenser/Steinberg key.

That is a perfectly reasonable position re: iLok although obviously I don't share it nor do most of the composers doing significant work here in LA that I have met.


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## Daniel James (Mar 29, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Daniel you are doing something wrong, or loading something wrong, or you have some piece of software that is holding you back, or something else. The software
> 
> But just keep repeating that it doesn't work "for you" and that you are a "professional," add "lol" to your posts to show you're a Good Fellow. You say over and over that HS sounds more or less equivalent to other string libraries and I disagree, as do.
> 
> Once you come up with an explanation as to how PLAY could work on, for me, five different computers with different drives and different OS, both Windows and Mac, over six or seven years, and yet somehow not work "for you," I'll be all ears.



Ah the good ol John and Jay banding together in another EW thread. It's been a while lol.

First off John just fluffy bunnies off with all that talk as if I am claiming to be some know it all 'professional' I never claim that I am any 'better or worse' than anyone else. I am just saying how things are for me. And I have tried to run HS on 4 separate systems and PLAY runs like poopoo on each for me. I am no programmer so pretty flowers knows why it works for you and not me John maybe you have some magic or something bestowed upon you with all the [I receive free prudes from EastWest]. The fact of the matter is that it doesn't work for me and does for you. I wish it worked for me, I had to buy the morning sunshine thing but it doesn't and no amount of how vanilla icecream gloriously it works on you systems doesn't change how pile of dandelions it works for me.

Yes I do say that That there are string libraries that sound just as good if not better than HS and I have tons of people that agree with new! (Ooh look that must give my opinion more legitimacy ha!)

As soon as PLAY starts working for me and offers enough quality over the competition to justify what it seems to get it working I will happily change my tune, although the EW 'race to the bottom' model of pricing makes me think it probably won't change anytime soon. Also lol how many years has PLAY Pro been coming now?

-DJ


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## WindcryMusic (Mar 29, 2016)

guydoingmusic said:


> Ummm... no it doesn't.



Oh right, as Ashermusic said, it is actually an eLicensor key. Which is also just as bad in my view, and which is why I won't buy it. I knew it was one of those evil CP schemes that I didn't like, anyway.


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## Daniel James (Mar 29, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Well take your ego out of it for a minute and answer this: which is more likely, all the people saying that for quite a while it runs fine being magically blessed or you doing something wrong, as John G. suggests?



Install latest PLAY, install library on SSD. Load PLAY in DAW. Load patch in PLAY...... Did I fuck something up there?

-DJ


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## Ashermusic (Mar 29, 2016)

I must be crazy as EW no longer pays me and it wasn't part of my job anyway, but I will tell you what Daniel. if you are sincere about wanting it to work, I will do a free Skype session with you and we will start from scratch and see if I can get it working well for you.


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## Daniel James (Mar 29, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I must be crazy as EW no longer pays me and it wasn't part of my job anyway, but I will tell you what Daniel. if you are sincere about wanting it to work, I will do a free Skype session with you and we will start from scratch and see if I can get it working well for you.



I'll take you up on that if you are about in April when I return to my UK studio! As much as everyone seems to think the opposite, I would actually like to use my PLAY libs more!

-DJ


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## Ashermusic (Mar 29, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> I'll take you up on that if you are about in April when I return to my UK studio! As much as everyone seems to think the opposite, I would actually like to use my PLAY libs more!
> 
> -DJ



OK, then, Daniel, we are on. Let me know.


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## Daniel James (Mar 29, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> OK, then, Daniel, we are on. Let me know.


Well this thread took a delightful turn for a change. Thanks Jay 

-DJ


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## Ashermusic (Mar 29, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> Well this thread took a delightful turn for a change. Thanks Jay
> 
> -DJ



You are welcome.


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## guydoingmusic (Mar 29, 2016)

guydoingmusic said:


>


wait.... it can't be over with yet!!!!!


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## Ashermusic (Mar 29, 2016)

guydoingmusic said:


> wait.... it can't be over with yet!!!!!


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## dreamnight92 (Mar 29, 2016)

As a Hollywood strings user I can say that these are one of the best samples of strings libraries aviable nowdays, but it is programmed as sh*t: patches are tricky, you need to work a lot with MIDI programing, and most of all I cannot custom my own patches...I would completely reprogram the legato cutting legato transitions to have a better control on transitions because actually they are sampled on long format and you cannot control the slur volume without affecting the sample sustained part volume.
Also it would be nice to update the short samples to get crossfade dynamic also for shorts (actually I need to duplicate tracks, layer dynamics then use a reaper script to control dynamic xfade thought velocity).

Also I usually have dinner waiting play loading my project...

That's why Hollywood strings is the library with best samples, but isn't the best strings library out of here!


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## jononotbono (Mar 29, 2016)

WindcryMusic said:


> Oh right, as Ashermusic said, it is actually an eLicensor key. Which is also just as bad in my view, and which is why I won't buy it. I knew it was one of those evil CP schemes that I didn't like, anyway.



What's wrong with iLok and Elicenser? I have two of each plugged into both my computers and just forget about them. They are never a problem and just work.


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## JohnG (Mar 29, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> First off John just fuck off with all that talk as if I am claiming to be some know it all 'professional'



You have, many times, claimed to be a professional musician, Daniel, here and elsewhere. I don't understand how you can't run a basic piece of software.

Personal attacks don't change the facts: You are doing something wrong or it would work.


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## WindcryMusic (Mar 29, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> What's wrong with iLok and Elicenser? I have two of each plugged into both my computers and just forget about them. They are never a problem and just work.



iLok requires PACE drivers to be installed on a system. The one time I installed PACE drivers, they turned the Macbook I was using at the time from an extremely stable system into one that was substantially worse performing, not to mention constantly crashing and becoming entirely too unreliable to even use anymore. This was directly attributable to PACE, as it was the only thing that was changed about the system between when it worked well and when it went down the tubes. There were multiple reports online of others having the same sort of negative experience with PACE. Since then I won't give PACE a chance to destroy a 2nd of my computers. I don't have any personal experience with eLicensor, but online anecdotal evidence has suggested to me that it may be as bad as or worse than PACE in this regard.

In my opinion both of these companies are selling copy protection software that does not have the stability of users' computers as a primary concern, and which benefits neither consumers nor software makers (since software thieves still find ways to get around it), but which only benefits themselves. I regard them as the software equivalent of a mob extortionist, and I won't have anything to do with them.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 29, 2016)

Logic used to use a dongle back in the Emagic days, never gave me a problem personally. I have used both eLicenser and iLok on both my Macs and my PCs, never has given me a problem personally.


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## jononotbono (Mar 29, 2016)

WindcryMusic said:


> iLok requires PACE drivers to be installed on a system. The one time I installed PACE drivers, they turned the Macbook I was using at the time from an extremely stable system into one that was substantially worse performing, not to mention constantly crashing and becoming entirely too unreliable to even use anymore. This was directly attributable to PACE, as it was the only thing that was changed about the system between when it worked well and when it went down the tubes. There were multiple reports online of others having the same sort of negative experience with PACE. Since then I won't give PACE a chance to destroy a 2nd of my computers. I don't have any personal experience with eLicensor, but online anecdotal evidence has suggested to me that it may be as bad as or worse than PACE in this regard.
> 
> In my opinion both of these companies are selling copy protection software that does not have the stability of users' computers as a primary concern, and which benefits neither consumers nor software makers (since software thieves still find ways to get around it), but which only benefits themselves. I regard them as the software equivalent of a mob extortionist, and I won't have anything to do with them.



Oh right. Well, I haven't experienced anything like what you are describing. I have far too much amazing software that relies on iLok and eLicenser for me not to use them and it all works fine. Still, whatever works.


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## Jaap (Mar 29, 2016)

Not to take sides, just giving my opinion about PLAY.

I am running HS and HB Diamond for years and since a few months also alot of stuff from the cloud, smooth on a very average pc (currently 32gb, started with 16gb) and no slave and no ssd (running it from USB3 external disk) and I have no problems whatsoever. Loading takes a bit and could be quicker if I used SSD, but for me its fine. I ran it first in VEP5, but since Cubase 8 I removed my VEP setup and running it with instrument tracks. While composing I use the lighter patches, but for mixing I load up the heavy patches, multiple mics etc and just no issues to be honest. I never had any real problems with PLAY to be honest and it just got smoother over the years. Just my 2 cents in the whole debate.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 29, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant Nick Phoenix. ☺️



But it's all about me, not Phoenix.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 29, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> What's wrong with iLok and Elicenser? I have two of each plugged into both my computers and just forget about them. They are never a problem and just work.



Same here, and I have many more than two.


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## novaburst (Mar 29, 2016)

procreative said:


> I am sure the newer Macs can probably handle it, but back in 2010? I think (but cannot state with authority) the two real issues as to why Play VIs can be so heavy duty are 1. The number of dynamic layers and 2. The compression techniques of individual sample files (or lack of) compared to Kontakt.



Not so sure on this statement VSLs (plus) library's can be full, stuffed with articulations, layers upon layers and more layers and detail but load with a reasonable amount of time, with out slave machine, also a 1001 librarys built for kontakt have tons of layers, articulations, detail, and load reasonable to quick times, you would need to take into account other standalone library's that load with blistering speed with tons of articulations with out a slave machine and you can work and produce quite fine with them.

What is.... is what is,...... weather you have H W S or VSL or Kontakt, or any other stand alone you are not going to fill up all 16 multis with heavy layered strings or orchestra, at best you will only have a few heavy orchestration going on from many librarys at once, very rarely do we use one library and fill all 16 multis it just does not happen we tend to use a combination of librarys 

A good practice is preparation if you are going to spend the day at your work station, is to allow your machine to warm up for 10 to 20 minutes, after that open and close you librarys with in your DAW to get it in the memory, 

Then start your work or hobby, 

You will find once you open a library and the instruments you are likely to use the next time you go to open it it opens faster. 

I know this is not an approach a lot would want to take but it does work and can at most times solve loading issues


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## jononotbono (Mar 29, 2016)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Same here, and I have many more than two.



I'll get there eventually!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 29, 2016)

novaburst, why would you need to let your machine warm up? I sleep mine anyway, but it's not an internal combustion engine!


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## novaburst (Mar 29, 2016)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> novaburst, why would you need to let your machine warm up? I sleep mine anyway, but it's not an internal combustion engine!



Not sure about SSD but I find when I just boot up and then boot up my DAW it takes a little more time than if I leave my machine running for a while, thats why I suggested it,

Dosent yours run on petrol


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 29, 2016)

It runs on petrol or natural gas. Special model.


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## novaburst (Mar 29, 2016)

Lol my guess is with the size of these librarys these days, we are going to need something like a car engine inside our machine,


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## Daniel James (Mar 29, 2016)

JohnG said:


> You have, many times, claimed to be a professional musician, Daniel, here and elsewhere. I don't understand how you can't run a basic piece of software.
> 
> Personal attacks don't change the facts: You are doing something wrong or it would work.



Oh well in that case then yes I am, as are you. We get paid to compose. I fail to see how that has any bearing on if a piece of software works well on my system or not. So John, again if I install latest PLAY, install library on SSD. Load PLAY in DAW. Load patch in PLAY...... Did I fluff something up there? Or is it possible its just not working for me... Maybe im just not as smart as you because beyond doing what I do with every other sampler and having it work, I dont know what else to do to make it work.

-DJ

P.s I edited out all the naughty words as 'some of you' are a little bit senstive and keep reporting me to the mods haha


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## novaburst (Mar 29, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> Oh well in that case then yes I am, as are you. We get paid to compose. I fail to see how that has any bearing on if a piece of software works well on my system or not. So John, again if I install latest PLAY, install library on SSD. Load PLAY in DAW. Load patch in PLAY...... Did I fuck something up there? Or is it possible its just not working for me... Maybe im just not as smart as you because beyond doing what I do with every other sampler and having it work, I dont know what else to do to make it work.
> 
> -DJ
> 
> P.s I edited out all the naughty words as 'some of you' are a little bit senstive and keep reporting me to the mods haha




High D J keep up the great work on utube some really great stuff going on there a great inspiration 

A class .


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## JohnG (Mar 29, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> Did I fuck something up there?



Apparently, yes, you made some error or there is something wrong with your setup.

And you failed to edit out all the naughty words.


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## Daniel James (Mar 29, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Apparently, yes, you made some error or there is something wrong with your setup.
> 
> And you failed to edit out all the naughty words.



Well which is it, did I make an error (please feel free to correct what I did in your infinite wisdom) OR is there something wrong with the 4 different systems I tried it on?

-DJ

Edited the last post to be more suitable for you.


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## JohnG (Mar 29, 2016)

You are doing something wrong. Since you have the problem, I suggest you check your system. 

In my experience PLAY works on Windows 7, 10 Vista and several Mac OS. It works with SSDs and it works inside and outside VE Pro. It appears to work for thousands of other people, so I can only reach the conclusion that it is something idiosyncratic with your system.

[note: I have received free products from East West]


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## Daniel James (Mar 29, 2016)

JohnG said:


> You are doing something wrong. Since you have the problem, I suggest you check your system.
> 
> In my experience PLAY works on Windows 7, 10 Vista and several Mac OS. It works with SSDs and it works inside and outside VE Pro. It appears to work for thousands of other people, so I can only reach the conclusion that it is something idiosyncratic with your system.
> 
> [note: I have received free products from East West]



Systems* plural. And it 'works' it just doesnt work well. Slow load times, pops and crackles with just one patch loaded into a project. Random crashes etc.

-DJ


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## Ashermusic (Mar 29, 2016)

Daniel, for example: slow load times. I have HS on my iMac on an SSD. I just loaded, from the Legato Slur and Port Powerful System folder. 1st Violins Marc Leg Slur and Port N. Now you may remember that is one of the biggest patches in the library. It loaded in 11 seconds. I just loaded then from the same SSD Kirk Hunter's Concert Brass 2 French Horn, 6,2,4,2,1 players, also a huge patch in Kontakt. It took 27 seconds to load!

So it isn't necessarily Play per se' or Kontakt per se', it is the patches.

As for the pops and crackles with just one patch, let me guess you are using Cubase, right?


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## JohnG (Mar 29, 2016)

Daniel, if you can't make your system work, I can't help you. You seem bent on proving something. I _know_ it works. No pops, no crackles, on multiple systems. So the obvious conclusion is an error or system problem at your end.


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## Daniel James (Mar 29, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Daniel, for example: slow load times. I have HS on my iMac on an SSD. I just loaded, from the Legato Slur and Port Powerful System folder. 1st Violins Marc Leg Slur and Port N. Now you may remember that is one of the biggest patches in the library. It loaded in 11 seconds. I just loaded then from the same SSD Kirk Hunter's Concert Brass 2 French Horn, 6,2,4,2,1 players, also a huge patch in Kontakt. It took 27 seconds to load!
> 
> So it isn't necessarily Play per se' or Kontakt per se', it is the patches.
> 
> As for the pops and crackles with just one patch, let me guess you are using Cubase, right?



Cubase 8 and Ableton Live 9.6 Same for both. Also re slow load times, are you loading batch resaved libraries? I mean I dont have the ones you mentioned but in less than the time it took you to load those I managed to load the entire Metropolis Ark orchestral section, which is pretty RAM hungry.



JohnG said:


> Daniel, if you can't make your system work, I can't help you. You seem bent on proving something. I _know_ it works. No pops, no crackles, on multiple systems. So the obvious conclusion is an error or system problem at your end.



And I _KNOW_ it doesn't work for me, explain again how it working for you has a bearing on it not working for me, on multiple systems? I'm not bent on proving anything, its you who keeps making out as though I am making this up. Like I said, I would love it to work as I cherry blossom paid for it!

-DJ


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## StatKsn (Mar 30, 2016)

Kontakt's batch resave is really magical. Example: Signal took something like 50 sec until it shows GUI, then I batch resaved it and it's not a single second to pre-load the whole thing.

I do wish HS and other Play libraries like Gypsy would have used Kontakt though. While, it's mostly smooth on my PC, there are a few weird hitches. The latest update fixed "legato script stop working in the middle" bug, but now introduced annoying "you have no valid license" glitch every now and then. I want to add velocity-modulated attack time, fake RR script, etc. Also, time streched patches are almost unusable (Kontakt's TM Pro is not perfect but still fabulous).


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## newcreation08 (Mar 30, 2016)

StatKsn said:


> Kontakt's batch resave is really magical. Example: Signal took something like 50 sec until it shows GUI, then I batch resaved it and it's not a single second to pre-load the whole thing.


The batch reserve is really superb!! I just wonder why, when you install a library in kontakt for the first time, it not automatically saves it in such a manner that it loads that fast ...


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## procreative (Mar 30, 2016)

I suspect if you polled a lot of the users with playback issues, once you get past the usual "spec of your machine/make of your HD/audio interface blah blah" you will find a lot of them are Mac users.

Thing is Play ran like stink on Macs for years. Play 4 brought some improvements but pre waste bin Macs have limitations that are expensive to remedy. SATA3 for starters, its all very well installing SSDs (as I did) but then you realise as most Macs have SATA2 you are only using them at 60% of their capability. Then there are the RAM limits, motherboard throughput limitations etc. Not to mention the lack of true multi thread processing of Logic etc etc.

As I said before after going through all these upgrades I realised for writing I need a largish template handy and loaded. This is impossible on a Mac especially running the DAW concurrently.

Bottom line is this: do the additional dynamic layers and vibrato layers enhance the sound enough for YOU to justify the hardware cost? At the time it came out in 2010 probably (although it would have been steep both to purchase the VI and the hardware) but since then there are other options.

In my opinion East West made a huge error in going alone with their player, they saw what VSL had done and probably figured the loss of piracy justified the loss of revenue. But I just do not think they have put enough into its development and for a long time the player was almost unusable. This and their constant denial their player might be the issue led many users into a cycle of frustration and eventual hatred of EW.

Dropping the prices to almost no brainer levels did 2 things: pissed off existing users that had paid up to 4-5 times for those product during even "one time introductory prices" and introduced new users on small budgets (lured by these low prices) with inadequate systems. Result even more frustration and eventual hatred of EW.


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## JohnG (Mar 30, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> I _KNOW_ it doesn't work for me,



When a little child has a problem and can't solve it himself, he blames others and throws a temper tantrum.

This is _your_ problem Daniel. You hold yourself out as an expert on libraries -- you have posted many hours of Youtube videos and appear to receive advertising revenue from it -- but you are unable to use a piece of software that, over the years, has given me no more problems than Kontakt. 

That is your inability, not mine.

If you really were an expert, instead of insisting on a position you took many years ago and maligning a company that is one of the top software providers in our industry, you'd make an earnest effort to work out what is up with your system. 

Tens of thousands of people are using this software with no problems today, whatever their difficulties in the past. Why can't you?


[note: I have received free products from East West]


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## PeterKorcek (Mar 30, 2016)

Could you move your private "battles" to private conversations? I mean, it was fun in the beginning, but now it's all over again about who got bigger d*ck. Both of you have some points, but I don't think it's going anywhere. I think that over the years I had less problems with Kontakt than with Play and I think more people would say this rather than the opposite. Truth is that for the last 1-2 years Play has been stable and there were some new updates for the libraries.

I would not forbid someone to watch someone else's video, it is just one piece of the puzzle and if the person watching it is not a retarded monkey after brain transplantation, they will not based their purchase on 1 video on Youtube, but do proper research online and with friends to find and buy best library for their budget, needs, etc. I personally liked DJ video.


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## Rodney Money (Mar 30, 2016)

Boys arguing over toys, and at the end of the day it's just about Play.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Mar 30, 2016)

This thread is proven to be a prime example of VI-Control's motto: "musicians helping musicians"


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Mar 30, 2016)

It's all PLAY, no work!

Come on, that was a good bad one.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Mar 30, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> It's all PLAY, no work!
> 
> Come on, that was a good bad one.


Indeed, lets all turn this thread into a good PLAYground.........and be a little PLAYful with it.


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## Daniel James (Mar 30, 2016)

JohnG said:


> When a little child has a problem and can't solve it himself, he blames others and throws a temper tantrum.
> 
> This is _your_ problem Daniel. You hold yourself out as an expert on libraries -- you have posted many hours of Youtube videos and appear to receive advertising revenue from it -- but you are unable to use a piece of software that, over the years, has given me no more problems than Kontakt.
> 
> ...



Yay name calling, lol only took a few to get to this point again. So yes this is clearly a problem for me as it doesn't work for me. We both know I am not alone in having issues in PLAY why do you always pretend like its just me. As if its me alone that has issues and no one else. We get it, it works for lots of people but that doesn't change the fact it runs like ass for me. 

I never once claimed ever at anytime that I am an expert of anything, thats a label only you and Jay have ever claimed to have me saying and every time it comes up during this PLAY discussion. If you can point out where exactly I have made such a claim I would be all ears. I only have only ever shown and make clear in my videos that I show libraries how I use them, usually straight out of the box to see how they put their best foot forward. If you think I am a shit composer or a shit engineer good for you, I will always want to learn more but in the mean time I will let my abilities be judged by the work I produce.

Yes I have produced hours and hours of Youtube content all showing how I do things for anyone who cares to listen, I am not putting myself out as an expert....just as me. But again none of that changes the fact PLAY still works like ass for me, no matter how much you dig and dig to make me look incompetent, so John, seriously, tell me where I go wrong: Install latest PLAY - install libraries on SSD - Load PLAY in DAW - Load patch. If there is some process in there that my non-expert, un-able, retarded, incompetent brain is missing please do enlighten me....or you can just shut the honey blossom up.

If anything had changed for me since I made the initial video I would have changed my position but with the exception of being able to access my DAW during loading (yet not able to PLAY the library like you can in Kontakt, oh the irony of that name) the engine still runs like shit, so until it starts working, when someone wants opinions on PLAY I will share how it works for me.....yet you will always take the time to ignore the thread and just go after me directly....this is what the 5th separate thread you have done this in? Starting to feel personal. Starting to think all those [I have received free products from East West] are causing a little bit of emotional bias for you when it comes to defending them.

-DJ


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## StatKsn (Mar 30, 2016)

BTW I think Daniel's comparison video is perfectly fair, well represented and I don't think leg slur patches from the folder labeled "Quick Start" can possibly represent a wrong sound of HS. In fact, the video sounds 100% like my HS.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Mar 30, 2016)

Hey........we changed the direction of the thread ....don't change it back 

You know........PLAY it well and all of you might feel better.


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## prodigalson (Mar 30, 2016)

JohnG said:


> This is _your_ problem Daniel. You hold yourself out as an expert on libraries -- you have posted many hours of Youtube videos and appear to receive advertising revenue from it -- but you are unable to use a piece of software that, over the years, has given me no more problems than Kontakt.
> 
> That is your inability, not mine.



At the risk of getting involved in a race I have no dog in, I think this is pretty unfair. You're completely ignoring the many people and threads over the years that also expressed issues with Play, HS, loading times etc etc. Sure, some of them maybe had - what ended up being - inadequate systems for the library. (Although at the time not officially acknowledged by EW). 

I, for a couple of years, could not get HS to load in any reasonable amount of time. I was running an iMac i5 with 32GB of RAM and streaming from SSDs, still took absolutely forever with Jay commenting at the time that yeah, that shouldn't happen. When they did load, I couldn't run more than a couple of patches before it brought my system to its knees. I continued updating Play with every update and still the same issues.

At some point along the way I updated to a version of Play 4.2 or something and suddenly Play couldn't find any of the samples even though I hadn't changed locations or favorites pathways. Got the same missing samples error with HS, HB and HOW. Nothing would load. I tried everything, redirecting the favorites path, reinstalling the library etc etc and nothing would work. Spent a week back and forth with EW support and they couldn't figure it out either. 

Then, last year I routinely updated as a course of habit to the latest version of Play, 4.32 or something and BOOM suddenly everything worked the way it should. All the same hardware yet it seems that just that version of Play was the magic version for MY system.

Obviously, this is just my experience but I fail to see what I could have done differently to make the system work beyond just waiting for that magic version. Would you have also said that I was just obviously doing something wrong?


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## Silence-is-Golden (Mar 30, 2016)

Ok then guys, if this is how you want to PLAY your cards then I leave you to it


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## Ashermusic (Mar 30, 2016)

Well, anyway I hope I get to the bottom of it with Daniel. I have made it a pet project

But StatKsn, the minute you use MIDI that was not designed to work well for the particular library patch, you render it unfair to ANY library with ANY patch, because they all have a different design philosophy. And there is no doubt that HS requires more competence in using it than some others.


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## StatKsn (Mar 30, 2016)

Jay, as an avid user I agree that HS has some own quirks (I dunno better wording - not necessarily in bad means - it's a deep library after all!) but I think the purpose of the video was to show the tone and quick general feeling of the library, not to demonstrate how "good" it is against each other. If one tweaks MIDI for each library and compare, it actually is unfair too because we can't never be sure the degree of perfection for each MIDI is 100% same. If I want to check out how good HS can be, I'd rather listen to Nick Phoenix's demo which is always superb.

Oh, and I think having a quick fact sheet for each patch in HS would have been really helped to explain how REALLY deep it is. Some patches control vib+dynamics with modwheel, some patches control vib with modwheel and dynamics with exp, some patches have additional porta time control, etc... I think there are still a lot of people think that LT patches sounds inferior than "powerful system" patches when they are not!


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## Ashermusic (Mar 30, 2016)

StatKsn said:


> Jay, as an avid user I agree that HS has some own quirks (I dunno better wording - not necessarily in bad means - it's a deep library after all!) but I think the purpose of the video was to show the tone and quick general feeling of the library, not to demonstrate how "good" it is against each other. If one tweaks MIDI for each library and compare, it actually is unfair too because we can't never be sure the degree of perfection for each MIDI is 100% same. If I want to check out how good HS can be, I'd rather listen to Nick Phoenix's demo which is always superb.



I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I would never do that with any library anymorwe than I would have a violinist play a trumpet to show its tone.

If you guys want, I will do a short video that is my idea of what would have been fair.


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## StatKsn (Mar 30, 2016)

The problem is that it is almost impossible to make any sound except maybe some weird hiss from trumpet if you have no experience with it, while with VIs you can just push some button and you'll get the same sound, or a slightly modulated sound, making comparisons like Daniel's possible and (at least to me) helpful so long as I know the limitations and intentions, you know. >_>

(I'm also all for "musical" comparisons)

P.S. "violinist plays trumpet and vice versa" actually sounds like this


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## jononotbono (Mar 30, 2016)

Mine runs on Bank notes.


Ashermusic said:


> I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I would never do that with any library anymorwe than I would have a violinist play a trumpet to show its tone.
> 
> If you guys want, I will do a short video that is my idea of what would have been fair.




I personally would love to see a Video from you Jay! Nothing to do with competing with Daniel's Video but just because you must have a good understanding of East West's products having worked for them and would only be a positive thing! The more knowledge the better!


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## Lassi Tani (Mar 30, 2016)

dreamnight92 said:


> you need to work a lot with MIDI programing



I've experienced this too. With HS there are much more MIDI programming than e.g. Spitfire string libraries or Berlin Strings. With HS I think I always need to do small little changes to note transitions to make it sound better. Usually I'm taking CC1 a bit down, and that takes a lot of time. But that's only with legato patches. Thus I'm using mostly sustain patches, or Berlin Strings, if I need legato. Or I'm doing something wrongly, that's of course a possibility .


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## Ashermusic (Mar 30, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Mine runs on Bank notes.
> 
> I personally would love to see a Video from you Jay! Nothing to do with competing with Daniel's Video but just because you must have a good understanding of East West's products having worked for them and would only be a positive thing! The more knowledge the better!



OK, a little later I will do a very short one with what I think is a fair approach.


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## Daniel James (Mar 30, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Mine runs on Bank notes.
> 
> 
> 
> I personally would love to see a Video from you Jay! Nothing to do with competing with Daniel's Video but just because you must have a good understanding of East West's products having worked for them and would only be a positive thing! The more knowledge the better!


 +1 This. I would watch.

-DJ


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## Ashermusic (Mar 30, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> +1 This. I would watch.
> 
> -DJ



Once again, though, it will be short, probably two patches, and I am going to approach it as if I also was fairly new to the library and trying it out.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 30, 2016)

And here it is, down and dirty. Doug would probably hate it, but I think it would have been fair and if i were comparing it to another library, i would then have done the same thing after I had a _basic_ understanding of how it was designed to work.


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## JohnG (Mar 30, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> tell me where I go wrong



I don't know. I don't see how you could be going wrong but obviously, you are.


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## AllanH (Mar 30, 2016)

This was originally written as an PM to Daniel James. I encourage others to share their findings.


I have encountered some of the PLAY vs. Kontakt issues others describe and ended up resolving them all. Some of my observations appear not to be generally known, so I hope the following is valuable to others.

OLD Computer: AMD 4 cores (ca 2010), 16 GB RAM, SSDs for all samples, Win10.

NEW Computer: Intel i6700, 32 GB RAM, SSD for all samples (SSDs were moved over from old system), Win10

Audio Interface: 96 KHz/ 24 bit playback. 16 bit sampling. Moved from old computer.

DAW: Sonar, current release



*Regarding PLAY: *

Generally, ASIO is the preferred protocol and what I use. However, with *PLAY-Standalone* I found the following problem:

If I choose ASIO, I think PLAY chooses the 16 bit sampling rate from the input of the card, as opposed to the 96KHz, 24 bit playback that the audio interface can do. PLAY-standalone, with ASIO, is so filled with noise that I barely can hear the instruments (I suspect PLAY is attempting to convert the 24 bit samples down to 16 and simply skips 8 bits). I switched to Direct Sound, which is fine as I only use it to check out instruments. This works well.



*PLAY-VST*: In Sonar preference, I first disable all input devices, then choose the output device making sure it’s 96/24, and then ASIO. The default ASIO playback setting is then 96 KHz/24 bits which PLAY-VST picks up just fine. Making sure that PLAY-VST picks up the right sampling rate is important.



*Regarding Kontakt*

The key setting for me was in Options/Engine “Multi Processor Support”. For *Kontakt-Standalone* I picked “8 cores” (all cores) for the new computer.

There is a separate setting for *Kontakt-VST*. Native Instruments recommends that I select “off” for the Multi-process Support. In all my experimentation this is the worst-possible setting. I have found a setting of e.g. 4 cores in an 8 core system works well, i.e. half the available cores.


Both of these Kontakt settings are global, so if you set it once, I think they persist across VSTs.


*Regarding Pops & Clicks in PLAY*

For a project with just PLAY VSTs I have had it running at 90% CPU without any pops and clicks (even on the old AMD).

However, adding just a single Kontakt VST (e.g. a simple Albion long string) anything over 50% CPU will lead to pops, clicks, stopped audio engine in Sonar etc. Totally useless and frustrating.

However, setting the Kontact-VST CPU setting to half the available CPUs completely eliminated the pops and clicks, and I can now again run close to 100% CPU utilization.



*Lessons*

· PLAY most likely has an issue where it possibly picks the wrong playback sampling rate. See note above.

· Kontakt’s “best practices” for CPU allocation is about the worst possible configuration for my gear. See notes above under Kontakt for how I configured my systems

· Both with the OLD AMD and the NEW i6700 the “Kontakt vs. PLAY” battle manifests itself, even though takes more stress to manifest on the i6700


Allan

PS: I have not received anything from any vendor; only statements from my credit card company.


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## lumcas (Mar 30, 2016)

Is it just me, or is it phasing horribly for everyone and only in mono - HD video selected???


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## EgM (Mar 30, 2016)

Yeah there was phasing in there :D


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## StatKsn (Mar 30, 2016)

Yes, thanks Jay for your effort but for probably encoding-related reason (mono?) it sounds horribad in the video.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 30, 2016)

StatKsn said:


> Yes, thanks Jay for your effort but for probably encoding-related reason (mono?) it sounds horribad in the video.



Well, it was just coming through the built in mic in my iMac. What is the best way to do this?

Anyway, the point is that is the _approach_ to take as opposed to a "one size fits all" MIDI.

EDIT:Here is just the two examples I did in the video.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Mar 30, 2016)

Hm. Not sure what the video is supposed to prove ... I don't think that Daniel James claimed that HS sounded bad or reacted badly to CC or anything. In fact, I remember him praising the sound itself. The points of criticism were the massive loading times, the huge footprint of some of the patches and some of the PLAY fuckups - of which many may have been resolved by now, but didn't take long to manifest themselves in the video back then. I don't see where he did the library any injustice or how he represented it wrongly.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 30, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Hm. Not sure what the video is supposed to prove ... I don't think that Daniel James claimed that HS sounded bad or reacted badly to CC or anything. In fact, I remember him praising the sound itself. The points of criticism were the massive loading times, the huge footprint of some of the patches and some of the PLAY fuckups - of which many may have been resolved by now, but didn't take long to manifest themselves in the video back then. I don't see where he did the library any injustice or how he represented it wrongly.



I could have done exactly the same thing I did in that video then, and the only difference would have been in the load times because I did not have an SSD then. Play would not have fucked up on _my_ rig at that time, because it didn't, and I used it daily.

if you don't see why my picking 2 quick start patches and simply playing them is more fair that "one size all" MIDI, then I can't explain it to you. It seems so obvious to me.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Mar 30, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I could have done exactly the same thing I did in that video then, and the only difference would have been in the load times because I did not have an SSD then. Play would not have fucked up on _my_ rig at that time, because it didn't, and I used it daily.
> 
> if you don't see why my picking 2 quick start patches and simply playing them is more fair that "one size all" MIDI, then I can't explain it to you. It seems so obvious to me.



I work with multiple libraries and layer them all the time. I program and edit every track separately, even 100% identical parts. I know how that works. The point is: it seems to me that it's all just about "proving" how DJ is doing something "wrong" - _anything_, at this point - because at one time he pointed out issues with the, cough, notoriously faultless PLAY software. So now it's suddenly "one size all" MIDI despite the fact that it has nothing to do with what he was being critical of and apparently still seems to have some issues with. Seems like a diversionary tactic to me. Give the guy a break.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 30, 2016)

I have no reason to divert anything. I no longer work for EW and I owe them nothing. What he did was the wrong way to approach it in my opinion, his system for whatever reasons, had, and apparently continues to have, more problems with Play than I _ever_ had (which I hope to help him sort out.)

I certainly don't think Daniel set out to be unfair or do harm, I just think that he didn't know any better. Had people seen a video of me loading the easy to use quick start patches with Play running _flawlessly_ on my 2006 2.66 Mac Pro Quad (not exactly a beast) from a 7200 drive, I think it would have made a very different impression.

And you are not going to be able to talk me out of that view.


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## dreamnight92 (Mar 30, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Well, it was just coming through the built in mic in my iMac. What is the best way to do this?
> 
> Anyway, the point is that is the _approach_ to take as opposed to a "one size fits all" MIDI.
> 
> EDIT:Here is just the two examples I did in the video.




This example is the perfect example when I was referring to "bad programming", in fact you can listen:
-Legato sample not cut at time, each have different length and you'll need to zoom to the legato transition, move a little each note separately to put it in time and shape a new attack for the note using a quick shaped envelope of CC1 or CC11.
-You can easily see that the sustained part of the legato samples bumps up in the volume, so that you'll need an extra CC7 envelope to control and shape this bump.
-Short sample jump to a dynamic layer to another resulting in abrupt timbre change, why to provide a xfade patch between two different shot patches and not to crossfade between dynamic layers into a single short patch?!?

This is what I was referring to "bad programming", in reality nothing you cannot solve with a huge midi programming, but this is very very time consuming.

In my opinion, some programming could resolve some issues:
-Cut the legato transition so that the sustained parts are separate from transition, those will provide a better control for the transitions and a better control of the sustained part of the sample (you can adjust volume at taste for each part of the sample). _This works nice in Hollywood brass: I use to adjust the volume of the slur in the 6 fh legato patch to get it more or less prominent at taste also considering the tone of the piece I'm working on._
-Crossfade between dynamic layers in short patches. _Again in Hollywood bass this works nicely. _
-Provide an "enveloped" sustained patches with a sharp attack that could be obtained from normal sustain changing the sample offset in the middle of the sample and then use ADSR to smooth out the attack.

A strange thing is that my Hollywood brass sound nicely with a little of midi programming, while I need to spend hours to get Hollywood Strings sound as I want, this due to bad programming.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 30, 2016)

I guess you have higher standards than I do. I would choose the Powerful System version, do a little cc11 and cc1, run it through my verbs and I would be happy and my clients would be happy.


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## dreamnight92 (Mar 30, 2016)

Actually not, I'm just a hobbist. 

My best aim is to have access to sample database and try to reprogram some patches in Hollywood Strings (maybe one say Play Pro will be released...). 
Maybe I'm wrong, but this library might sound better and easy to program with a patch rebuilt.


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## StatKsn (Mar 30, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Well, it was just coming through the built in mic in my iMac. What is the best way to do this?[/MEDIA]



It probably has to do with encoding of the video (because the audio in the video was heavy on artifact and was seemingly mono) rather than the mic. The soundcloud one sounds fine.

And yes, I think HS legato patches are a bit wonky on attack time (needs microtweak for timing) compared to other big-section string libraries, but I think it is by design to preserve nuances. As for volume bumps, it actually can be quite problematic as it is often like this: sounds fine in realtime playback, then jumps in the recorded audio (might have to do with internal engine/script state). One thing to do is turn on "let VST know the DAW is in the render mode" option somewhere in your DAW which should reset the state of the engine each render.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 30, 2016)

StatKsn said:


> It probably has to do with encoding of the video (because the audio in the video was heavy on artifact and was seemingly mono) rather than the mic. The soundcloud one sounds fine.
> 
> And yes, I think HS legato patches are a bit wonky on attack time (needs microtweak for timing) compared to other big-section string libraries, but I think it is by design to preserve nuances. As for volume bumps, it actually can be quite problematic as it is often like this: sounds fine in realtime playback, then jumps in the recorded audio (might have to do with internal engine/script state). One thing to do is turn on "let VST know the DAW is in the render mode" option somewhere in your DAW which should reset the state of the engine each render.



A lot wrong with this, at least as it relates to Logic Pro.

First of all, Logic gives you the option to bounce in real time or offline. I generally do real time so I hear it as it goes down and it has been extremely reliable. Second, there is no such thing as either a "VST" or a "render mode" that needs resetting in Logic.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 30, 2016)

dreamnight92 said:


> Actually not, I'm just a hobbist.
> 
> My best aim is to have access to sample database and try to reprogram some patches in Hollywood Strings (maybe one say Play Pro will be released...).
> Maybe I'm wrong, but this library might sound better and easy to program with a patch rebuilt.



Well, flexibility is always a god thing, and I too hope for a Play Pro to let us do that. But I have zero problem creating compositions with the Hollywood Orchestra that I like a lot with the present programming. But then I know the patches I use well, and just as I always wrote to the players with real players, I write to the samples with sample libraries.


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## germancomponist (Mar 30, 2016)

This EW library is one of the best what you can buy! Believe me!


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## Ashermusic (Mar 30, 2016)

BTW guys, just to be clear, if someone thinks the programming is lousy, they think other libraries sound as good or better, etc. I have zero problem with that.

I like what I like. Back in the day, I liked Kirk Hunter's stuff (still do) and I took a lot of crap over that and it never deterred me from continuing to use it. I love the Hollywood Orchestra and while I too would like to have more control sometimes, I love writing with it. It inspires me.

So if others do not feel that way about it but do feel that way about some of the marvelous alternatives from OT (probably would be MY choice if HO suddenly went away) or Spitfire or CineSamples or 8dio or VSL or Project SAM, or Sonokenetic _(Jay pauses to catch his breath)_ then isn't it wonderful that we have so many choices?


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## StatKsn (Mar 30, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> A lot wrong with this, at least as it relates to Logic Pro.
> 
> First of all, Logic gives you the option to bounce in real time or offline. I generally do real time so I hear it as it goes down and it has been extremely reliable. Second, there is no such thing as either a "VST" or a "render mode" that needs resetting in Logic.



It is the spec made by Steinberg for VST plug-ins that DAW needs to flag that it is in render mode so that plug-ins can reset the state. At least Cubase, Studio One, Ableton, Reaper, FL Studio and even Samplitude if my memory is correct, have an option for it.

I don't follow Logic since forever, but from your explanation, it seems Logic automatically notifies plug-in to be in render mode when you bounce offline or something if there was VST for Logic, of course.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 30, 2016)

StatKsn said:


> It is the spec made by Steinberg for VST plug-ins that DAW needs to flag that it is in render mode so that plug-ins can reset the state. At least Cubase, Studio One, Ableton, Reaper, FL Studio and even Samplitude if my memory is correct, have an option for it.
> 
> I don't follow Logic since forever, but from your explanation, it seems Logic automatically notifies plug-in to be in render mode when you bounce offline or something.



Obviously I know what VSTs are. Logic uses Audio Units, not VSTs. Not sure about what you are talking about with rendering as there is no "rendering mode."


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## StatKsn (Mar 30, 2016)

Um, well, I'm not talking about Logic.

(I think the problem about technical talk often comes from automagically assuming that everyone is talking about the same environment as one uses)


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## Ashermusic (Mar 30, 2016)

StatKsn said:


> Um, well, I'm not talking about Logic.



But you quoted my post when you brought up the VST thing and did you look at my signature?


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## StatKsn (Mar 30, 2016)

Sorry but I was not talking to you about that neither. It was a general troubleshoot tip.


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## noises on (Mar 31, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> The thing is: all the much-criticized shortcomings have just because defensible because the price point nowadays is unbeatable. The trade-off actually makes some kind of sense now.
> 
> What you get is great sounding samples for a fraction of the price of comparable products, but it comes at the cost of an oddly inefficient and primitive sample player that, due to its complete lack of features, doesn't allow any kind of workflow adjustment and customisation that's totally standard nowadays. Compared what VSL, OT and Spitfire are doing in terms of functionality - EW worfkow, by comparison, is so mundane and one-sided.
> 
> Being able to buy pro-grade samples that cheap is obviously a great thing, but I'd rather see EW do some product care instead of dumping their stuff cheap. At least the basics ... I mean, come on, assignable keyswitches and custom CC assign shouldn't be a problem in 2016.


Yep would love to assign my breath controller to a cc of my choice for instance.


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## dreamnight92 (Mar 31, 2016)

noises on said:


> Yep would love to assign my breath controller to a cc of my choice for instance.



I'd advice you to download a simply midi CC converter (there lots of plug ins also free), so that you can impost your template with CCs you like most.


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## noises on (Apr 2, 2016)

dreamnight92 said:


> I'd advice you to download a simply midi CC converter (there lots of plug ins also free), so that you can impost your template with CCs you like most.


Thanks for the tip, ...have just downloaded transmidifier to try to achieve that. Will take a look at Midi CC convertor..Cheers Geoff


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## lahatte (Dec 16, 2017)

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I thought it might be useful for others reading it that may have Kontakt loading some libraries slowly. Here is a tip for Windows 10 users via EvilDragon at the NI forum regarding Windows Defender. I have to wonder if the same might apply to PLAY.

In Windows Defender, Virus & Threat Protection, "V&TP Settings->Exclusions->Add an exclusion. Then add all the drives you have Kontakt libraries on, and file extensions (NKI, NKM, NCW, WAV, AIFF, NKX, NKR)."


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## nyxl (Dec 17, 2017)

lahatte said:


> Sorry to revive an old thread, but I thought it might be useful for others reading it that may have Kontakt loading some libraries slowly. Here is a tip for Windows 10 users via EvilDragon at the NI forum regarding Windows Defender. I have to wonder if the same might apply to PLAY.
> 
> In Windows Defender, Virus & Threat Protection, "V&TP Settings->Exclusions->Add an exclusion. Then add all the drives you have Kontakt libraries on, and file extensions (NKI, NKM, NCW, WAV, AIFF, NKX, NKR)."


Hi, thanks for the tip! I'm building a template with Hollywood Orchestra and adding Windows Defender exceptions for the folders that contain my libraries has significantly improved its loading time!


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## lahatte (Dec 17, 2017)

I'm glad it helped.


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## JohnG (Jan 19, 2018)

You may be unaware of the picture here, @omiroad so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

I am not interested in reviving an old argument, as I believe people have moved on. Suggest you do too.


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