# Two Kingdoms - Real orchestral recording vs. mockup



## DeOlivier (Feb 5, 2009)

Hi everybody!

Recently I had the pleasure to record some of my pieces in Prague. I thought some of you might be interested in comparing the mockup to the real orchestral recording.

I didn't do any mixing yet, so the real recording is just the decca tree and the surround mics mixed in at a lower level, without any processing at all. I still have to figure out how to use the close mics...

For the mockup I used EWQLSO Gold XP only, I didn't mix and tweak it that much because I composed the piece for the recording session.

http://www.oliverwallner.com/music/two_kingdoms_real.mp3 (http://www.oliverwallner.com/music/two_ ... s_real.mp3)
http://www.oliverwallner.com/music/two_kingdoms_mockup.mp3 (http://www.oliverwallner.com/music/two_ ... mockup.mp3)

Cheers, Oliver


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## madbulk (Feb 5, 2009)

Absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much for this.


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## IvanP (Feb 5, 2009)

Great Job!

Can you share the following?:

Did you have to reorchestrate / rebalance things or is it an exact replica of the mockup?
and could you please tell what was the String and brass setup? (the one from the session)

How long did it take to record it?

well done, DeOlivier! =o


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## Niah (Feb 5, 2009)

hey olivier

I was excepting that the mockup would sound much inferior but you did a great job only using gold XP

I also liked the music, it was fun and it kept me interested 'till the end


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## DeOlivier (Feb 5, 2009)

Thank you IvanP and Madbulk. Concerning your questions: I didn't reorchestrate anything - everything that is in the final score is also in the mockup. Even the velocity values in the mockup translated very well into dynamic markòÊ'   ”[€Ê'   ”[Ê'   ”[‚Ê'   ”[ƒÊ'   ”[„Ê'   ”[…Ê'   ”[†Ê'   ”[‡Ê'   ”[ˆÊ'   ”[‰Ê'   ”[ŠÊ'   ”[‹Ê'   ”[ŒÊ'   ”[Ê'   ”[ŽÊ'   ”[Ê'   ”[Ê'   ”[‘Ê'   ”[’Ê'   ”[“Ê'   ”[”Ê'   ”[•Ê'   ”[–Ê'   ”[—Ê'   ”[˜Ê'   ”[™Ê'   ”[šÊ'   ”[›Ê'   ”[œÊ'   ”[Ê'   ”[žÊ'   ”[ŸÊ'   ”[ Ê'   ”[¡Ê'   ”[¢Ê'   ”[£Ê'   ”[¤Ê'   ”[¥Ê'   ”[¦Ê'   ”[§Ê'   ”[¨Ê'   ”[©Ê'   ”[ªÊ'   ”[«Ê'   ”[¬Ê(   ”[­Ê(   ”[®Ê*   ”[ËÊ*   ”[ÌÊ*   ”[ÍÊ*   ”[ÎÊ+   ”[¯Ê+


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## PolarBear (Feb 5, 2009)

You featured two very hard-to-get-from-a-sample-library-things in that piece - very short strings staccatos and melodic brass ensembles. This is where real recordings outdo every mockup. I'm sure you can enhance dynmics by layering some samples (that were a little bit on the dry side unfortunately) over the real recording. For my taste the real recording sometimes sounds a little bit to intimate for the quite big composition.

Nicely done and a reminder for everyone who'd think we'd be there already. Not quite. Thanks for sharing!


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## synergy543 (Feb 5, 2009)

Congratulations Oliver and thanks for posting these!

What surprises me the most actually is how close they both are. Of course, there are subtle nuances in the real performance as Rob says, however, those guys really did a close job of following your mockup... or your mockup really projected well what the real thing would sound like!

I'd love to hear more about your experience if you care to share.

But really a nice job, is this your first time?

Greg


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## DeOlivier (Feb 6, 2009)

Now I have time to answer your questions:

@Rob: I absolutely agree, these are definitely the areas where you hear the most prominent differences. I didn't think the brass was weak (or weaker than the other sections). Of course it's easier to spot small inaccuracies in the brass than, say, in the strings - especially in a piece like this. But overall there where few spots where I had to edit something because I thought the brass was out of tune or something. And I really love their tone!

@PolarBear: Yes, I really like how those staccatos sound in the strings, that's very hard to impossible to get with samples. I also think that this version sounds a bit too intimate for the style of the piece, but keep in mind that I didn't do any mixing yet. I would prefer to enhance the dynamics by riding faders or adding close mics instead of adding samples, but I still have to experiment with this. Or I just let an experienced engineer do all that, I'm not sure. As much as I like the engineering part of our job, I feel a bit overwhelmed by the task of mixing all those tracks at the moment :? 

@Synergy: Yes, this was my first orchestral session, so it was an overwhelming experience - really a childhood dream coming true! When they started to play the first cue, I just couldn't believe it... And the amazing thing was that everything actually worked as I imagined it - only small changes (e.g. dynamics) where necessary during the session. I think the orchestra and the whole team was top-notch, very experienced and professional. I highly recommend them - their website is: www.musa.cz The session has also been filmed so if you're interested I can post some video material when it is finished.


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## synergy543 (Feb 6, 2009)

Oliver, thanks for posting the score - its really great to both hear and see what you've done. Its rather larger score too - just got to test it on my large format printer. Its interesting too as there are some parts such as the opening winds which I can't hear well in the real orchestra yet I can see them on the score....and I hear them in your mockup. It seems you've orchestrated it well though, doubling flutes and clarinets. You mentioned something about mixing orchestral parts earlier. Do you have stems of the individual orchestral sections you can mix? 

I'd love to see the video too.

Thanks again - this is a great study for us as well as exciting for you! o-[][]-o 

Greg


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## synergy543 (Feb 6, 2009)

Oliver, when you mix the close mics, I wonder if you'll need to compensate for the distance difference with a delay? For example, if the mics were 30 feet apart, you'd have about a 30 ms delay I would think....just a thought.


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## paoling (Feb 6, 2009)

Thank you so much Oliver for posting this marvellous piece, with the score!
I think this piece is really a kind of encyclopedia for scoring LotR kind of movie. 

Wonderful...

@ Synergy, I suppose that you keep in mix the natural delay of the far mics, to avoid phasing problems too.


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## mixolydian (Feb 6, 2009)

As an addition to my pm I want to thanks for sharing. Excellent piece.


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## DeOlivier (Feb 6, 2009)

@Synergy: Yes, I have stems for every section so I can add them where a part needs some reinforcement. I also believe that any delay compensation would lead to phasing problems, but perhaps somebody with more mixing experience could chime in here. 

The video will take some time to be finished (they used three cameras, so there will be plenty of material to see through and cut), but I can already post some stills.


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## DeOlivier (Feb 6, 2009)

...more pictures:


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## DeOlivier (Feb 6, 2009)

...and one more:


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## paoling (Feb 6, 2009)

Rudolfinum rocks


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## hbuus (Feb 6, 2009)

Oliver,

This must have been a tremendous experience for you. Thanks for sharing the wonderful mp3s and photos.

Best regards,
Henrik


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## dannthr (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks for sharing this, Oliver.


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## MCS (Feb 6, 2009)

Very cool, oliver!


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## Alex W (Feb 6, 2009)

Great writing! congrats!


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## Craig Sharmat (Feb 6, 2009)

Very nice!

The mockup right now sounds more defined than the real recording. That maybe the most realistic mockup I have heard with QLSO. 

I have found in my own recordings that I like real about 70% of the time over my mockups. Not actually the percentage I am hoping for (I'd like 99%). The Bigger the piece it seems the less the difference.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks so much for those Olivier, they sound great!

I think one of the obvious differences, aside from the added realism and depth of the live orchestra is that the percussions of the mockup are more present and contribute to drive the piece more.

Did you have the conductor play to a click track?

If I had to add any samples to the real orchestral mix, it would be the percussion.

Also, how much did you end up paying from the whole session, if you don't mind me asking...

Great job and congrats on a very exciting experience I'm sure...


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 6, 2009)

This is nice DeOliver! 

The main difference I'm hearing in the real piece is more definition in the brass starts than the mockup version - especially horns - plus the depth of field is deeper with the real version. (This might be a good case for getting SampleModeling to do a Solo Horn to layer in ensemble work.) The high end is sloped downward in the real version which is classical recording style. 

The volume on the mockup is louder plus the EQs are much brighter which may add to the sense that there is more definition there. I've noticed on many real orchestral recordings that the ultra high end is somewhat sloped downwards for more punchiness. I think you did well though onòÊj   ”jóÊj   ”jôÊj   ”jõÊj   ”


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## synergy543 (Feb 6, 2009)

Oliver, from your pics, it looks to me like you recorded in Dvorak Hall? If so, this is where Miroslav was recorded as well. Sweet!

I assume you know this already though.


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## synthetic (Feb 6, 2009)

Very cool piece, thanks for posting both recordings. Very nice sound in both versions, but obviously the orchestra beats it to me. Using a few of the close mics should get back some of the punch you're missing in the live version. 

I'm embarrassed to say I still haven't mixed the piece I had recorded in Bratislava because the room mics sounded so good I just stayed with that.


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## paoling (Feb 6, 2009)

@ Synergy: Yes it's Dvorak Symphony Hall in the Rudolfinum... There are three storical theaters in Prague.
Those 3 theaters are:

-The National Theatre, behind the "Magic Lantern", just near the river Moldova.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Theatre_(Prague)

-The Estates Theate, also known as Mozart Theatre, that's the one you see in Amadeus movie and where Mozart give the first play of "Così fan tutte". I had the luck to visit it because my friend was a singer in an opera there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estates_Theatre

-The Rudolfinum, near the famous Charles Bridge, and that's the theater where Oliver recorded this piece. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rudolfinum

I love Prague :D


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## Mahlon (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks Oliver for posting. This is very interesting. And sounds very good -- both versions!


Mahlon


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## JB78 (Feb 6, 2009)

Very cool of you to share this experience in such detail Oliver! Love the writing as well. o-[][]-o 

Best regards
Jon


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## hbuus (Feb 7, 2009)

Lpp @ Fri Feb 06 said:


> Here is confirmed, what I experience with my own mockups vs. real...
> 
> Samples are always fatter, but also very sedate. It´s like moving some big blocks around and trying to be agile. Orchestra in comparison is slim and versatile. Compared to the big blocks on the samples version, it sounds effortless, elegant and like little light beans jumping around. I hope, you get what I want to say, because it is very hard to describe.



That's very well described! I got the same feeling when listening to the two mp3s. It's like I can almost _feel_ the effort and work that went into the mock-up, which to me in a strange way detracts from its musical quality (even though this is high quality stuff indeed). Not so with the orchestral version, here I can just lean back and listen, thinking this sounds exactly as you say, Lpp - effortless. It sounds easy, joyful, somehow.


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## adrianallan (Feb 7, 2009)

thanks for sharing with us this fascinating project.

I was very impressed by the quality and detail in your printed score too. 

Your music is worthy of further attention, and I hope that this recording session gets you the break that you deserve.


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## SergeD (Feb 8, 2009)

Thanks for sharing, it's very informative to compare the real and virtual versions.

Great music and great skills.

I wonder if the platinium version with the 3 mics would soften the render. Sometimes I have the feeling that the samples hit the eardrum harder in smaller spots which may cause eardrum pain. 

SergeD


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## DeOlivier (Feb 9, 2009)

Thanks again for all your replies and comments! Here are some more answers to your questions:

@Patrick: No, I chose not to use a click track for this recording. I always thought that my mockups sounded a bit too mechanic, so I really wanted to hear the difference. According to Petr Pycha, the session manager, this wasn't the best choice for the more busy pieces though, but I'm still very pleased with the results.

If adding close mics doesn't suffice, I'll surely add some percussion samples. I miss some of the mockup's punch, too.

@Synergy: Yes, I recorded in Dvorak Hall - a terrific location, I really loved the quality of the reverb there. And since summer 2008 they have a completely new studio there (you see it on the pictures).

@Lpp: You described the difference very accurately - that's exactly what I always think when I'm working with samples - moving around some large inert mass and trying to sound agile...

Everybody asked what the session cost me: The total budget, including the orchestra, conductor, recording team, hall rental, music prep and film license (without accommodation and so on) was EUR 6500. A lot of money, but I thought it was absolutely worth it.

-Oliver


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## alphabetgreen (Feb 9, 2009)

DeOlivier @ Mon 09 Feb said:


> Thanks again for all your replies and comments! Here are some more answers to your questions:
> 
> @Patrick: No, I chose not to use a click track for this recording. I always thought that my mockups sounded a bit too mechanic, so I really wanted to hear the difference. According to Petr Pycha, the session manager, this wasn't the best choice for the more busy pieces though, but I'm still very pleased with the results.
> 
> ...



EUR 6500 is a huge amount of money, but I really understand the justification of spending it that way. And yes, if I had that sort of money, I would have done the same. Congratulations!


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 9, 2009)

A few bucks for sure but I would think that you would only need THIS many players for a couple days for film's larger cues - 'smaller' cues would need smaller groups of players.


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## DeOlivier (Feb 9, 2009)

Rob Elliott @ Mon Feb 09 said:


> A few bucks for sure but I would think that you would only need THIS many players for a couple days for film's larger cues - 'smaller' cues would need smaller groups of players.
> 
> 
> Anyone used Prague recently on an entire film? Talking to a Driector now that will decide AFTER all the cues are written and mocked up - whether to use Prague (for some or all). I just wanted an 'rough' idea of what the total costs would be for say 50-70 mins (2-3 days with the large group and maybe 3-4 days with smaller sections). I know it 'depend' but seems like a typical film would be about $30-40K USD (plus travel).
> ...



Their current rate is EUR 56 per musician per 3 hour session. They record about 10 minutes of music in 3 hours, depending on the complexity of the material. Then you have to add hall or studio rental (about 800 for 3 hours), recording team and conductor (if you need one).


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## DeOlivier (Feb 9, 2009)

alphabetgreen @ Mon Feb 09 said:


> Didn't you say you had four pieces recorded for that amount of money?



Yes, I recorded 4 pieces (about 10 minutes of music) during the 3 hour recording session.


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## david robinson (Feb 9, 2009)

hi,
i like the real orchestra much better, and i applaude you on having the guts to use real musos.
and the money - 'cos that's what it takes.
DR9.


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## alphabetgreen (Feb 10, 2009)

DeOlivier @ Mon 09 Feb said:


> alphabetgreen @ Mon Feb 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Didn't you say you had four pieces recorded for that amount of money?
> ...



Four pieces, I would say that's money well spent. But congratulations anyway for having the guts to go for it. He who dares wins, and all that.


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