# Trailer vs epic structure?



## dannymc (Feb 14, 2016)

hi guys simple question. what are the main differences in regards to cue structure. i understand trailer structure tends to be made of acts 1 to 3 followed sometimes by a tail out but what about epic cues? some of the stuff i listen to from the likes of Thomas Bergersen doesn't seem to follow this structure to my ears or maybe i'm just not hearing it correctly. take for example this piece.


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## rJames (Feb 14, 2016)

My personal opinion is that the structure can be anything you want it to be. Especially when you are talking about the big players.
The point is writing a trailer cue, epic or not, is to get a license. So, you just start off trying to think like an editor. Why will this opening be suited for a trailer opening. Or maybe I want to write a 2nd act only; or a final act only.
There are plenty of libs that write only one act. You just have to nail that act. Maybe you want to give a couple of ways in... a couple of ways out... a couple of ways to stop and leave suspense hanging there.
Epic is not my thing at all, but when you are writing library music tailored for trailers, you are writing it to be useful. You are writing it to be easy to use. You are writing it to stick out to a music supervisor on the first listen.
Structure is about (for) the editor. 
As has been noted in many of these threads; most of the time each cue only lasts a few seconds. But you want to write a cue that can be used ONLY for an intro for this trailer; ONLY for a 2nd act for this other trailer; and ONLY a final climax for this other trailer. If it happens to go through all 3 acts, you have a career. Cause you've written one hell of a cue.
the music supervisor is not identifying cues based on the fact that they have 3 solid acts. They have flagged it because it works for some portion of the trailer.
They write 3 acts so they will have 3 chances for a license. Oh, and if you have all 3 levels of a trailer, then it is more flexible. What if the editor needs to go from 0-60 in 7 seconds. They can cut from act 1 into act2 and finally to the big climactic stop in act 3.


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## Andrajas (Feb 14, 2016)

Its very interesting! I'm actually writing my master thesis about trailer music but I'm gonna have a look at film trailers vs gameplay-trailers (video game trailers) when it comes to structure etc, so this is an interesting topic for me  Have plans to make the survey on this forum which is based on my analysis of the music for the different formats.


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## Dean (Feb 14, 2016)

Hey Danny and Andrajas, I started this thread a while ago,.might be of help? 

http://vi-control.net/community/thr...the-difference-tips-advice-insight-etc.46982/

D


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## dannymc (Feb 15, 2016)

> There are plenty of libs that write only one act. You just have to nail that act.



that's very interesting. i didn't realize that the trailer libraries specialized right down to the individual acts. big fan of act 1's myself, seems to fit my style. how would you know which libraries specialize in which acts? do they actually market themselves that way? i would of thought that all the big trailer companies would want to have equal amounts of top quality material that contains all 3 acts. 



> Hey Danny and Andrajas, I started this thread a while ago,.might be of help?



i seen this Dean thanks, was great post for getting a handle on tone/mood and instrumentation to use between the two genres i just wasn't clear how strict cue structure is between the two genres. 

Danny


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## Zhao Shen (Feb 15, 2016)

Write as you want, just keep it flowing with natural progression and transitions. Trailer music is structured a certain way because that's how the editors like it - if you don't make your music adhere to the structure, then your cue is a lot less likely to be picked up by someone cutting together a trailer.

"Epic" music is different, 1) because "epic" isn't a genre as much as it is a mood, and 2) because it's not meant to suit any specific purpose. Because there's no underlying "I have to do this to get this track licensed," epic music (assuming it's not being produced explicitly to accompany a project) can be structured however you want. But say you listen to a lot of TSFH and Bergersen - you may end up subconsciously leaning more toward their common structures just because it will start to sound more natural and "right" to you.

TL;DR: Trailer music is structured because that's what it takes to get licensed. Epic music isn't a genre and can be structured however you want.


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## dannymc (Feb 15, 2016)

thanks Zhao.

Danny


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## EvanArnett (Feb 15, 2016)

This has probably been pointed out before, but we are comparing apples to oranges here. "Epic Music" is a music genre. "Trailer" is a medium, which can utilize music of any genre. It's like saying "Film Music vs Neo-Romantic Orchestral Music". Venn Diagram overlap, structure, blah blah etc etc...


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## rJames (Feb 15, 2016)

dannymc said:


> that's very interesting. i didn't realize that the trailer libraries specialized right down to the individual acts. big fan of act 1's myself, seems to fit my style. how would you know which libraries specialize in which acts? do they actually market themselves that way? i would of thought that all the big trailer companies would want to have equal amounts of top quality material that contains all 3 acts.
> Danny


Sorry, didn't mean to say that certain libs specialize in Act 2, or in Act 1. Just saying you don't have to write 3 acts. You can write 4 acts if you want. I mean that 4 sections that each have a new layer of intensity.
I've written plenty of cues for Intros (act 1). But I've also written cues that are not clearly any act but just trailer-like intensity.
The way you find out who does what is by writing great material (or "useful" material) and submitting it.
As I've said in a number of these threads. Most libs have an [email protected]. And if your material will make them money, they will get back to you.

And to EvanArnett; I think we are equating epic music with trailer music because epic music is a genre that has its roots in trailer music. Not to say that there wasn't anything epic before original trailer music [edit] became a thing.
I would go even further to say that it is my impression that most of the discussion here at VI about trailer music is only about epic trailer music.


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## Dr.Quest (Feb 16, 2016)

rJames said:


> Not to say that there wasn't anything epic before original trailer music because a thing.


I cannot figure out what this even means. Because a thing? What does that mean?


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## Daryl (Feb 16, 2016)

EvanArnett said:


> "Epic Music" is a music genre. "Trailer" is a medium


Actually I partially disagree. Epic is not a genre, but a description of the music, and to be quite honest, most of the time there is nothing epic about the music that is described as such.


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## Jaap (Feb 16, 2016)

A slightly alternate version of what I posted in another thread about this.

Epic is: WHOOOHOOOO SHOW ME THAT DRAGON! PRINCESS, HERE I COME TO SAVE THE DAY! WHOOOHOOO!!!

Trailer is: once upon a time - there was a brave knight that went saving a princess - he faced a fierce dragon! (harrr!!) a battle as never seen before started!!! - How To Intercept a Dragon 3 is coming to your cinema soon


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## rJames (Feb 16, 2016)

Dr.Quest said:


> I cannot figure out what this even means. Because a thing? What does that mean?


Became a thing. Thank you computer for helping me spell. Original trailer music came into being about 25-30 years ago.


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## rJames (Feb 16, 2016)

Jaap said:


> A slightly alternate version of what I posted in another thread about this.
> 
> Epic is: WHOOOHOOOO SHOW ME THAT DRAGON! PRINCESS, HERE I COME TO SAVE THE DAY! WHOOOHOOO!!!
> 
> Trailer is: once upon a time - there was a brave knight that went saving a princess - he faced a fierce dragon! (harrr!!) a battle as never seen bef


Here's my version of Jaap's description.
Act 1- There is a place where normal life is like this. In that place there are these people who we will follow.
Act 2- In this place something happened.
Act 3- Yikes, everything is going wrong and the meaning of life has changed; unless you come to see this picture.


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## Dean (Feb 16, 2016)

dannymc said:


> i seen this Dean thanks, was great post for getting a handle on tone/mood and instrumentation to use between the two genres i just wasn't clear how strict cue structure is between the two genres.
> 
> Danny



Loose guide structure wise ,..

Act 1) restrained,low,ominous,gravitas,uncertain,atmospheric,(hints of a theme to come in Act 3) 
Act 2) Adding drive,building,layering,expanding on the theme,orchestration,percussion,adding struggle,building,building
Act 3) explosive surge,soaring main theme,layering,massive,emotional,counter point(?),building,building,...

...there are a number of approaches,..you can pause,.then into explosive Act3 and then you can end with a cliffhanger or a massive resolve section,..you can then add a reprise of the act 1 section or not,..to be honest I dont think about this stuff at all I just compose with the structure in the back of the mind,..some tracks can be 5 mins,some 2 mins or so,..whatever works for that given track,..some are mainly orchestral others hybrid,..

Besides instrumentation,orchestration,tone/style etc,(mentioned in my earlier thread)Epic music seems to have more open arrangements,..more acts,..? D


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## dannymc (Feb 16, 2016)

ha ha great replies guys thanks 

Danny


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## Dean (Feb 16, 2016)

dannymc said:


> ha ha great replies guys thanks
> 
> Danny



Go on?


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## dannymc (Feb 16, 2016)

> Loose guide structure wise ,..
> 
> Act 1) restrained,low,ominous,gravitas,uncertain,atmospheric,(hints of a theme to come in Act 3)
> Act 2) Adding drive,building,layering,expanding on the theme,orchestration,percussion,adding struggle,building,building
> ...



Dean thanks for that. well sometimes i think there can be an equal number of acts in epic & trailer. i think one way of describing it is that trailer seems to have to stick to the exponential curve going from act 1 -3 where-as epic can be peaks and troughs, sine waves whatever? 
Danny


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## Lex (Feb 16, 2016)

rJames pretty much nailed it. I would just add that you got to watch a lot of trailers. It's easy, watch bunch of trailers then go here *http://tinyurl.com/zcto2am *and find the track that you just saw used and analyze the structure. 
As rJames said structure is important if you aim to grab a significant portion of the trailer ( like 60sec  ) , but you can get your career going even if editors like just a tiny bit of what you did and it really works for them. 
A few years ago there was a track by young Attila Ats that was huge number of campaigns that year, called Shredder. 
Now, in vast majority of TV spots and trailers that it was licensed for only the part from 1:32 until the end was used, the longer "main" part of the track for most part never saw the light of day. These 30 sec of "Shredder" gave young Attila a great starting year for his career and it helped in a big way to put Really Slow Motion as a publisher on the map. 

alex


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## dannymc (Feb 17, 2016)

thanks for that Lex. the percussion sounds huge in this, its something i seem to struggle with. any idea what he used here? would this be damage? kinda has that sound or is lots of layering? 

Danny


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## Lex (Feb 17, 2016)

dannymc said:


> thanks for that Lex. the percussion sounds huge in this, its something i seem to struggle with. any idea what he used here? would this be damage? kinda has that sound or is lots of layering?
> 
> Danny



I would guess LOTS of layering and sound sculpting.


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## MarcelM (Feb 17, 2016)

interesting video about the topic, and also some other stuff on his channel.

interesting thread between... thx to all the great guys sharing knowledge!


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## Dean (Feb 17, 2016)

I agree with the guys here,Ive had some great placements where only 30 secs were used,the client pays to license the track regardless of how much of your track they use in the final edit.

_I really wouldnt worry about the structure too much for the same reasons,..of course,the more cohesive the track is the more it increases your chances of carrying the entire trailer with one cue.Thats why I think its so important to give every section of each cue 100% instead of phoning it in,..and I think track titles are so important,..if you can tell a whole story in a title,..then in your cue also have a hint of the main theme in act 1 that explodes in act 3,..then you have a whole story arc package to offer.This does'nt mean they will use the entire cue but it might be enough to grab the client and get 'your' cue into their edit. 

Re Epic and Trailer; The lines can be quite blurred too,I wrote a cue that seemed more epic/score (to me) than 'typical' trailer yet its placed more times than any other cue I've done so far! I think its way more important to let each track have its own sound,structure,style naturally,..dont force them to have pauses,hit certain marks,durations,sfx/risers etc,..you could compose a cue thats 5/6 mins long but if it draws them in and has that killer section(theme) or tone the client loves then youre in! Where as if you over think it and start editing and rewriting to fit the usual trailer structure/length/style you could end up with a contrived/forced sound that doesnt have that section that the client loved so much,....the 'tone' is the key part in the end I think. (hope that makes sense? )D_


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## dannymc (Feb 17, 2016)

> I would guess LOTS of layering and sound sculpting.



thanks Lex. 




> I agree with the guys here,Ive had some great placements where only 30 secs were used,the client pays to license the track regardless of how much of your track they use in the final edit.
> 
> _I really wouldnt worry about the structure too much for the same reasons,..of course,the more cohesive the track is the more it increases your chances of carrying the entire trailer with one cue.Thats why I think its so important to give every section of each cue 100% instead of phoning it in,..and I think track titles are so important,..if you can tell a whole story in a title,..then in your cue also have a hint of the main theme in act 1 that explodes in act 3,..then you have a whole story arc package to offer.This does'nt mean they will use the entire cue but it might be enough to grab the client and get 'your' cue into their edit.
> 
> Re Epic and Trailer; The lines can be quite blurred too,I wrote a cue that seemed more epic/score (to me) than 'typical' trailer yet its placed more times than any other cue I've done so far! I think its way more important to let each track have its own sound,structure,style naturally,..dont force them to have pauses,hit certain marks,durations,sfx/risers etc,..you could compose a cue thats 5/6 mins long but if it draws them in and has that killer section(theme) or tone the client loves then youre in! Where as if you over think it and start editing and rewriting to fit the usual trailer structure/length/style you could end up with a contrived/forced sound that doesnt have that section that the client loved so much,....the 'tone' is the key part in the end I think. (hope that makes sense? )D_



thanks Dean. i was wondering how it makes you feel if you write such an amazing cue and they end up only using the first 30secs. do ya not feel kinda cheated especially since you put so much work into the whole piece and your favorite act 3 is never heard by anyone? like that cue you wrote for American sniper is amazing from start to finish but i'm not sure how much they ended up using in the end i didn't see the trailer. i guess that's another big difference between being a trailer composer and commercial composer, most people get to hear the latters full tracks. 

Danny


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## Dean (Feb 17, 2016)

dannymc said:


> thanks Lex.
> 
> thanks Dean. i was wondering how it makes you feel if you write such an amazing cue and they end up only using the first 30secs. do ya not feel kinda cheated especially since you put so much work into the whole piece and your favorite act 3 is never heard by anyone? like that cue you wrote for American sniper is amazing from start to finish but i'm not sure how much they ended up using in the end i didn't see the trailer. i guess that's another big difference between being a trailer composer and commercial composer, most people get to hear the latters full tracks.
> 
> Danny



Hey,its a bit of anti climax if they only use the very first 30 secs or so (luckily its only happened twice) but you realise its all good,you still landed another great gig,..your music is getting heard by the music editors,producers,(sometimes the director),you get paid regardless also these tracks can get placed again if they're strong enough,.usually you've already moved on down the road to other tracks and pitches by the time a trailer confirms. 

Re American Sniper: thanks! I was fortunate that they used the entire cue to carry the trailer. D


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## SillyMidOn (Feb 18, 2016)

dannymc said:


> thanks Lex.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Haha...

Sometimes they license just 5 seconds!

You hear from the people in charge that track XY of yours has been used in a certain trailer, and you think "huh, that's interesting, I can't see that track working with that particular movie trailer". Then you see the trailer, and they've used 5 secs of it, and well it feels odd the first time, but after that you don't mind, as hey, you still get paid and there are in all honesty many, many others track they could have chosen instead, but yours got picked.

What can be annoying is doing custom cues, and revisions and revisions, and then it doesn't get picked. Though that track might still end up in a trailer for a different film.

And lastly, as there are many many trailers for the big films, Teaser, Main Theatrical (sometimes several), TV, Foreign, DVD, and this may sound odd, but if it's, say a DVD tailer or foreign TV trailer, sometimes you don't get to see the footage at all/can't find it online. But hey, non-trailer library composers have to deal with not seeing the footage their music is in all the time, so...


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## Daryl (Feb 18, 2016)

SillyMidOn said:


> But hey, non-trailer library composers have to deal with not seeing the footage their music is in all the time, so...


Yep. I don't care, as long as I get paid.


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## SillyMidOn (Feb 18, 2016)

dannymc said:


> thanks Lex.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


... in fact sometimes they just pull out one single stem from your piece, and then you watch the trailer, and you think "was my music in there?"


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