# NIs Komplete Kontrol MKII the best solution to control VSTis?



## musicman3000 (Nov 16, 2020)

Hi,

I'm looking at midi controllers once again. Last time I did that, I decided on an Arturia KeyLab MKII. While I like the build, I feel I'm not getting alot of use out of its control section. The transport and DAW controls are fine but in regards to controllings VSTs, I mainly just map a couple of parameters to write automation. It seems to me that the biggest bottleneck to controlling VSTs through Hardware controllers is the Software, as well as getting enough visual feedback as of which paramter you are controlling. And the best approach is to create a standard developers can implement. The KK has that and it also has easy mapping of 'macros' through the KK plugin. The info is surfaced above its 8 faders.

Since I'm mainly working in S1, I also took a look at the FP8. This seems easy to use for mapping VSTs, since its update with S1 4.55 and it also has 8 screens to display information. It can automap VSTs and you can easily map or change the paramters that are represented at the first banks and S1 will remember. Because of it being 8 motorized faders, this should be more useful for filters and effects tho.

Lastly, I'm really tempted by the SL MKIII. I'm working mainly ITB now but I got a couple of hardware units and I thought about setting up a different space to work without a computer. For that I will need a sequencer. The SL has a reasonably powerful one (only step length fixed to 16 kind of irritates me) and seems to also be great at handling hardware units (you still have to manually map everything with their software because, for some reason, they have no easy to use user portal for sharing mappings and only provide around 30 presets). While it gives you visual feedback on 8 values similar to the KK, it doesn't seem to have a fast way of mapping (no standard like NKS) and I also don't use Ableton, with which it has great integration.

What do you guys think? Is there any midi controller (with keys or not) I should consider? How do you like working with your NI or Novation keyboards? Do you use custom mappings?

I appreciate any input!


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## ckett (Nov 16, 2020)

I have been forever trying to figure the best midi controller for software instruments. I think that the NI Komplete Kontrol is very close to the best solution. Having said that and since you are using Studio One as your DAW, there is a better way in my opinion to setting up your instruments using a Komplete Kontrol keyboard. It will take you a bit of time though. My question to you is do you like to use a lot of different VST instruments or do you have a few favorites?

If you have a few favorites I would recommend creating your own template using the Komplete Kontrol software for each instrument that you want to control. Then in Studio One, create a midi controller with as many "knob" parameters as you would need for your largest instrument template. Make sure to check mark each knob with the "transmit" identifier. This will be important later.

Once you are finished with this step, select the template on your Komplete Kontrol keyboard first, then select the VSTi in Studio One. Studio One allows you to map your controls to the parameters in the plugin. 

Once that is completed for each VSTi, you are done! 

When you want to play for example Plugin VSTi #1, you first select the template in your Komplete Kontrol, then open the VSTi plugin. All of the encoder controls you have mapped will automatically be in sync with the patch on your instrument. 

The only thing you will not be able to do is patch browsing within the Komplete Kontrol keyboard. 

I have heard too many issues with trying to get every VSTi and their patch lists synced using the Komplete Kontrol protocol. 

Hope this helps!


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## chimuelo (Nov 16, 2020)

I’m hoping to eventually find a replacement for my Physis K4, a big pair of boots to fill.

NI Kontrol is where I’m looking to but they need a few more updates before I dive in.


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## ckett (Nov 16, 2020)

Funny you mention the K4 as I have been looking at that as a controller. How do you like the keys?


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## musicman3000 (Nov 17, 2020)

ckett said:


> I have been forever trying to figure the best midi controller for software instruments. I think that the NI Komplete Kontrol is very close to the best solution. Having said that and since you are using Studio One as your DAW, there is a better way in my opinion to setting up your instruments using a Komplete Kontrol keyboard. It will take you a bit of time though. My question to you is do you like to use a lot of different VST instruments or do you have a few favorites?
> 
> If you have a few favorites I would recommend creating your own template using the Komplete Kontrol software for each instrument that you want to control. Then in Studio One, create a midi controller with as many "knob" parameters as you would need for your largest instrument template. Make sure to check mark each knob with the "transmit" identifier. This will be important later.
> 
> ...



Thanks for taking the time to write your insightful answer. It actually helped me out alot, the tips are good but I also figured out, I'm trying to find a solution to something that has no clear problem. I realize my only constants are that I do alot of sample manipulation and automation on the timeline and when I use VSTs I'm impatient. For example, I really like Pigments 2 and I basically use a couple of Impacts or creative slicers like Egoist on every track. But with synths like Pigmestnts, it really only makes sense to create a preset with performance controls anyway. So what I need to do is first look how I'm making music . Although a bit pricey, a combination of FP8 and SL MKIII might work best for my needs. Map the SL MKIII to instruments I frequently use, the benefit being more buttons and 8 faders, which really helps to have amp and filter envelopes mapped (the downside being much less comfortable mapping software), plus it has 16 pads, which is useful to me (not sure they are usable, the Arturia ones are pretty bad). And then use the FP8 for all the timeline and effects stuff. I'll keep thinking about it.

What workflow do you use?


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## ckett (Nov 17, 2020)

Right now I use a Korg D1 keyboard just to have 88 quality keys. I custom built a midi controller that I map to parameters for my VST instruments.


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## musicman3000 (Nov 17, 2020)

ckett said:


> Right now I use a Korg D1 keyboard just to have 88 quality keys. I custom built a midi controller that I map to parameters for my VST instruments.



Now thats beautiful!


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## ckett (Nov 17, 2020)

Thanks!


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 19, 2020)

Counterpoint: oddly enough, I find it easiest and fastest just to use my mouse for software - it requires no thought about whether this one knob means X or Y depending on the thing loaded. I don't have an NI keyboard, but I've done the Automap thing in the past, I've done the manual mapping, I have Omnisphere and hardware synths it maps to. I just end up using my mouse. But that's me.

I have hardware synths and effects for hardware and a controller with just a keybed for everything else. Plus my trusty mouse.


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## ckett (Nov 19, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Counterpoint: oddly enough, I find it easiest and fastest just to use my mouse for software - it requires no thought about whether this one knob means X or Y depending on the thing loaded. I don't have an NI keyboard, but I've done the Automap thing in the past, I've done the manual mapping, I have Omnisphere and hardware synths it maps to. I just end up using my mouse. But that's me.
> 
> I have hardware synths and effects for hardware and a controller with just a keybed for everything else. Plus my trusty mouse.


Haha! Very true! It is a pain to setup. I do like to have more live performance parameters like filter cutoff and resonance, maybe AMP ADSR, volume, or anything that I would want to tweak while playing mapped to controls. Everything else i use a mouse.


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## musicman3000 (Nov 19, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Counterpoint: oddly enough, I find it easiest and fastest just to use my mouse for software - it requires no thought about whether this one knob means X or Y depending on the thing loaded. I don't have an NI keyboard, but I've done the Automap thing in the past, I've done the manual mapping, I have Omnisphere and hardware synths it maps to. I just end up using my mouse. But that's me.
> 
> I have hardware synths and effects for hardware and a controller with just a keybed for everything else. Plus my trusty mouse.



I appreciate your perspective. That's why I started with it really depends on an easy way to map AND having visual Feedback so you don't get lost with your mapping. But even then I agree, it's probably mainly feasible to have controls that determine sound character like amp/filter envs and may some fx. But I also aked what ppl do because yeah, maybe midi mapping is just part of the perfect toolset fallacy ppl chase around instead of making music.


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## ckett (Nov 19, 2020)

It can be quest only to find nothing that really works any faster than a mouse. If you have used an analogue synth with one dedicated knob/slider per function, simulating that experience with software is the ultimate goal. I think the midi spec also doesn't have a high enough resolution for certain parameters to be effective. Midi 2.0 couldn't come fast enough.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Nov 19, 2020)

chimuelo said:


> I’m hoping to eventually find a replacement for my Physis K4, a big pair of boots to fill.
> 
> NI Kontrol is where I’m looking to but they need a few more updates before I dive in.


That is a mad controller you have there
I had not heard anything about this Physis P4 until now... though I remember seeing it in videos with composers

I have been looking at the NI S88MKII, Kawai VPC-1, Arturia 88, Deopfer PH88 and LMK4+ and some others

However, I am also someone who likes to play keys without sounds
Nice to just sit there and relax playing the built-in sounds

So I have also considered: Roland FP-30, Yamaha P515 (wooden graded keys) 'My favourite pick so far', Kawai ES110 and Roland RD88



I am glad this thread was started because it would be good to hear people's thoughts nad perhaps experiences with these controllers/digital pianos
I was thinking to wait until BF sales, however I need to get this within this month or Week1 next month 

FYI: The Komplete Kontrol 88 is a big one for controller for me as I purchased the Komplete 13U Collector's Edition recently


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## chimuelo (Nov 19, 2020)

K4EX/5X have built in sounds, but I only liked the Pianos and EPianos.

K4 is just meat & potatoes w/ one of a kind VSTi and hardware controls.


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## musicman3000 (Nov 19, 2020)

Thanks guys, this thread helped to change my perspective. I think the wisest move is simply to change expectations -- get a keyboard that can easily map performance parameters of a synth and fills all your other needs. I'm not gonna try to figure out a way to map VSTis but choose softsynths that are fun to use with the mouse (stuff like Softube Parallels or Matt's Vital look really good and are designed as a software first) and maybe make a bigger hardware purchase like a Novation Peak. If theres a couple of soft instruments I end up using alot, it might be valuable to think about creating a more indepth mapping. Now I just have to decide if i rather have NKS or the SL with its extra pads, faders and buttons and sequencer. (And I'm looking at a used Panorama P1 because apparently the Panorama series autopopulates its display with according parameters, when using S1 internal mapping, which sounds very useful).

Edit: I'm also getting a Roland FP-10 btw. which has the same keybed as the 30. I decided to finally learn to play the piano in my old age .


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Nov 19, 2020)

musicman3000 said:


> Thanks guys, this thread helped to change my perspective. I think the wisest move is simply to change expectations -- get a keyboard that can easily map performance parameters of a synth and fills all your other needs. I'm not gonna try to figure out a way to map VSTis but choose softsynths that are fun to use with the mouse (stuff like Softube Parallels or Matt's Vital look really good and are designed as a software first) and maybe make a bigger hardware purchase like a Novation Peak. If theres a couple of soft instruments I end up using alot, it might be valuable to think about creating a more indepth mapping. Now I just have to decide if i rather have NKS or the SL with its extra pads, faders and buttons and sequencer. (And I'm looking at a used Panorama P1 because apparently the Panorama series autopopulates its display with according parameters, when using S1 internal mapping, which sounds very useful).
> 
> Edit: I'm also getting a Roland FP-10 btw. which has the same keybed as the 30. I decided to finally learn to play the piano in my old age .


May I ask why the FP-10 and not the 30?


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## musicman3000 (Nov 19, 2020)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> May I ask why the FP-10 and not the 30?



Sure, the FP-10 is 150€ cheaper . I was just looking at entry level digital pianos of yamaha, korg and roland and apparently roland only starts using better keybeds at ~1500€. Since I was mainly interested in having a usable keybed and this dp also sounded the best to me, I just decided on this one. I also wanted to stay under 500€. Availability is also good (although the korg is even a 100 bucks cheaper). I think for my purposes, I will be happy and if for some reason I really get into playing the piano, I think an upgrade would be in order either way, so in 2 years I can just get a decent one in the 2000€ range.

edit: i guess the difference between fp10 and fp30 is that the latter has a bit higher polyphony and more sounds? I don't think it makes a difference to me for now.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Nov 19, 2020)

musicman3000 said:


> Sure, the FP-10 is 150€ cheaper . I was just looking at entry level digital pianos of yamaha, korg and roland and apparently roland only starts using better keybeds at ~1500€. Since I was mainly interested in having a usable keybed and this dp also sounded the best to me, I just decided on this one. I also wanted to stay under 500€. Availability is also good (although the korg is even a 100 bucks cheaper). I think for my purposes, I will be happy and if for some reason I really get into playing the piano, I think an upgrade would be in order either way, so in 2 years I can just get a decent one in the 2000€ range.
> 
> edit: i guess the difference between fp10 and fp30 is that the latter has a bit higher polyphony and more sounds? I don't think it makes a difference to me for now.


The biggest differences are what are you have mentioned and also:
Ivory touch keys - so more piano feel


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## musicman3000 (Nov 19, 2020)

FP-10 also has ivory touch keys edit: just to be clear, this is a roland marketing term that claims their coating makes them feel closer to real piano, which reviewers seem to agree with


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Nov 19, 2020)

musicman3000 said:


> FP-10 also has ivory touch keys edit: just to be clear, this is a roland marketing term that claims their coating makes them feel closer to real piano, which reviewers seem to agree with


Interesting... yes you have do have to navigate the marketing-speal it seems to find that they both have ivory-touch

Perhaps FP-10 would be fine for me after all then


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Nov 19, 2020)

Can anyone else speak to the preference between going with a graded-action digital piano and a graded-action midi controller?

Also, the stability of Komplete Kontrol within the DAWs:
Cubase 10.5/11
Logic Pro 10.5.1/10.6


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## rnb_2 (Nov 19, 2020)

musicman3000 said:


> (And I'm looking at a used Panorama P1 because apparently the Panorama series autopopulates its display with according parameters, when using S1 internal mapping, which sounds very useful).



Nektar's DAW integration is very nice with both Studio One and Logic - I bought a T6 controller and loved how it worked, but needed something more portable to carry between two floors in my house, so got a P1 instead and love it. I combine it with an NI M32 for the best of both worlds, but also agree that doing custom mapping for different plugins is a lot of work and haven't really decided if it's worth it. It seems like it would be awesome, but given how complex it can be, I can also see it having a massive cost in time that could be used in other ways.


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## rnb_2 (Nov 19, 2020)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> Also, the stability of Komplete Kontrol within the DAWs:
> Cubase 10.5/11
> Logic Pro 10.5.1/10.6



Can't comment on Cubase, but KK works well with Logic 10.5.1, but has a bug in 10.6 that can cause some random disconnects between the software and hardware. Seems like it's an easy fix, but still a headache.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Nov 19, 2020)

rnb_2 said:


> Can't comment on Cubase, but KK works well with Logic 10.5.1, but has a bug in 10.6 that can cause some random disconnects between the software and hardware. Seems like it's an easy fix, but still a headache.


Yeah I had a look at this 'fix', but so far no update from NI on this since their posting
It causes my controller (KK S49Mk1) to haphazardly flicker the button lights when connected

Something that only happened before when I had both Cubase and Logic open at the same time


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## DovesGoWest (Nov 19, 2020)

I had a nektar lx61+ with its fadars and knobs which was great but never used them as could never knew which control was mapped to what parameter.

now I have an s61mkii and use komplete kontrol, however there are issues.NKS compliant VSTs appear on the keyboard displays and the controls are all mapped and displayed. For non compliant VSTs the keyboard runs in MIDI mode so you have to create your own maps, these you will have to manually select per instrument.

general stability with Cubase 10, 10.5 and 11 has been good although I am currently pursuing a problem with the spitfire plugin


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## musicman3000 (Nov 20, 2020)

Btw. I found a nice deal on a used SL MKIII. Hope I get to sell my KeyLab MKII. I really hope this is an upgrade because from some perspective it is like replacing something I already have with something 90% similar (I hope for decent pads, want the screens but this depends on the mapping experience in practice and also the sequencer depends on me actually using it, instead of a DAW).


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