# A new perspective on the sound of Falcon



## Pier (Nov 4, 2021)

In case you're considering getting Falcon, here are some demos I've found that showcase a different kind of sound. Not the typical clincal precise stuff UVI is known for (I think).


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## ghobii (Nov 4, 2021)

Great sounds! I think they still have that clean precise feel to them which is why I bought Falcon.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 4, 2021)

Pier said:


> the typical clincal precise stuff UVI is known for


God, I love *clinical precise*!


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 4, 2021)

This thread is a nice idea. Falcon patches for people who think they don’t like Falcon, to show what it can do that you might like. I’d love to see similar threads for other synths, or even developers. I would love to love Zebra, but haven’t yet found any sounds that have made me want to learn it. But I do recognise how great it is for usi with orchestral instruments.


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## Pier (Nov 4, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> I would love to love Zebra


Oh now you've made me curious!

What is it you're missing or don't like about Zebra?


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> Oh now you've made me curious!
> 
> What is it you're missing or don't like about Zebra?


If I described in words how Zebra sounds, those words would all be things I usually like. Yet somehow it doesn't quite work for me. A lack of substance and body maybe? Which may be why it works so well in hybrid music.


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## Alchemedia (Nov 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> In case you're considering getting Falcon, here are some demos I've found that showcase a different kind of sound. Not the typical clincal precise stuff UVI is known for (I think).



Mikael is an excellent sound designer, but keep in mind his Falcon presets, at least the ones I have heard, incorporate samples. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but something to keep in mind when judging the sound. Richard relies more on programming wizardry in his Divinity soundset. However, if you are under the impression Falcon is only capable of clinical sounds you're focusing on the expansions and haven't explored Vintage Vault or Synth Anthology.


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## Alchemedia (Nov 5, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> If I described in words how Zebra sounds, those words would all be things I usually like. Yet somehow it doesn't quite work for me. A lack of substance and body maybe? Which may be why it works so well in hybrid music.


I totally agree. I never cared for Zebra but do own Hive, Repro & DIVA.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> I think I know what people mean when they think Falcon is clinical sounding. But I think that's mostly because all the presets are really clinical sound design. I've been playing with the vintage vault 3 that I got last week, taking instruments and presets and ripping them to bits and rebuilding them from samples up, generally to sound much grittier. This snippet is 100% falcon - only non-falcon is some EQ/compression. All fx, sounds etc are all from falcon. I think it's pretty vintage and gritty sounding, not clinical at all.
> View attachment Song 2021-11-03 Melodic Techno.2 snippet.mp3


Oh no! So clinical I can smell the disinfectant! Or, you know, the total opposite of that... 

I can still hear distinctively Falcon aspects to the sounds, but it lovely and rough-edged and organic.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 5, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> I totally agree. I never cared for Zebra but do own Hive, Repro & DIVA.


Which reminds me how much I want Hive and Repro. And Bazille. I have Diva and it does sound great.


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## cedricm (Nov 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> I think I know what people mean when they think Falcon is clinical sounding. But I think that's mostly because all the presets are really clinical sound design. I've been playing with the vintage vault 3 that I got last week, taking instruments and presets and ripping them to bits and rebuilding them from samples up, generally to sound much grittier. This snippet is 100% falcon - only non-falcon is some EQ/compression. All fx, sounds etc are all from falcon. I think it's pretty vintage and gritty sounding, not clinical at all.
> View attachment Song 2021-11-03 Melodic Techno.2 snippet.mp3


Just curious, why not equing and compressing in Falcon itself?


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Although, I must say - the digital eq in falcon is really lovely to use. Makes me want to get Shade... maybe in the future. I've already got so many eq's that I don't use fully (550, 560, Nova, Schepps, SSL 4000, H-EQ etc etc - mostly waves as you can see I got sucked into their 29.99 sales... )


Wait, you managed to catch some Waves plugins while they were on sale?!


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> THe samples from vintage vault really give that organic feel - every note has a different sample in most instruments, so it feels much more alive than just digital oscillators. I think the distinctive sound of falcon is really SparkVerb - it has a certain slightly metallic sound, I really like it, but I do wonder if in a full production I'll swap out the reverbs on a few parts for IR verbs instead, or use IR-1 with some lexicon impulses.


It depends on what the reverb is doing. Often the internal reverb of a synth is not simulating spatial location. So you might want to keep SparkVerb for one purpose (sound quality and sustain) and add IR-1 very slightly to blend it with the other instruments.


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## Alchemedia (Nov 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Although, I must say - the digital eq in falcon is really lovely to use. Makes me want to get Shade... maybe in the future. I've already got so many eq's that I don't use fully (550, 560, Nova, Schepps, SSL 4000, H-EQ etc etc - mostly waves as you can see I got sucked into their 29.99 sales... )


Shade is great. I just used it on a track tonight. I often use it in place of Pro-Q3 while mixing.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Although, I must say - the digital eq in falcon is really lovely to use. Makes me want to get Shade... maybe in the future. I've already got so many eq's that I don't use fully (550, 560, Nova, Schepps, SSL 4000, H-EQ etc etc - mostly waves as you can see I got sucked into their 29.99 sales... )


H-EQ is a really musical equalizer, with some unique features. Quite like that one (the entire H-range is incredible really).


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## Alchemedia (Nov 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Can't wait to get Hive and Repro, and maybe Diva (I feel like everyone uses Diva now, and I much prefer to tread the path less followed). fingers crossed for new years sales, or maybe I'll just cave and buy some used licenses.


I have all 3 and would recommend Hive & Repro 1/5 over DIVA.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 5, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> H-EQ is a really musical equalizer, with some unique features. Quite like that one (the entire H-range is incredible really).


As I experiment with different compressors, I still usually end up removing them and going back to H-Comp. 

For EQ I jump straight to Maag 4 if I'm not sure what I need. It can get a bit samey, though.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 5, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> I have all 3 and would recommend Hive & Repro 1/5 over DIVA.


Where was such good advice when I needed it? Probably all over this forum and I didn't look.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 5, 2021)

The H-series and some of the Abbey Road series are among the most useful mixing plugins I’ve worked with to be honest. I am kind of liking skeumorphism as it indeed forces me to use the ears rather than look at graphs. I still tend to use my Waves stuff more than T-RackS and all of Melda. I guess it has to do with old habits, but I also wouldn’t if it just didn’t sound so good


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## doctoremmet (Nov 5, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> As I experiment with different compressors, I still usually end up removing them and going back to H-Comp.
> 
> For EQ I jump straight to Maag 4 if I'm not sure what I need. It can get a bit samey, though.


Yes. Maag 4 is great as well. I also recommend the LouderThanLiftoff ChopShop. Dead simple. Just works in a lot of cases. And my latest PA “discovery” (admittedly purchased for ridiculous reasons: the sale opportunity ITSELF haha) -> Lindell TE-100. Weird yet pretty cool sounding.

Anyway. Falcon.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 5, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Yes. Maag 4 is great as well. I also recommend the LouderThanLiftoff ChopShop. Dead simple. Just works in a lot of cases. And my latest PA “discovery” (admittedly purchased for ridiculous reasons: the sale opportunity ITSELF haha) -> Lindell TE-100. Weird yet pretty cool sounding.
> 
> Anyway. Falcon.


I have been known to like the Weird.


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## Alchemedia (Nov 5, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> H-EQ is a really musical equalizer, with some unique features. Quite like that one (the entire H-range is incredible really).


I agree the H-Series is quite good, but I generally reach for FabFilter, iZotope or Gullfoss. I've lost track of how many Waves plugs I've accumulated over the years, however the only ones I still use fairly often are the Abbey Road series (and occasionally SSL + MV2). I feel like George Martin & Geoff Emerick are in the room with me!


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## doctoremmet (Nov 5, 2021)

Falcon lovers are so into CLEAN that the correlation with them owning dirty EQ plugins is pretty high. You know, to finally add some character to the ultra clinical eerie digital sound of their French synth. Hence this talk of emulated hardware is in fact on topic.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 5, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> I feel like George Martin & Geoff Emerick are in the room with me!


Haha yes. Whenever I am “behind” the TG12345 I always feel like I’m Alan Parsons. Lol!


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## Alchemedia (Nov 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> I love repro. I have the demos for all the u-he synths, and of all of them, repro is the most fun/musical to sit and play at a keyboard. I love the "everything in it's right place" preset, I can just sit and play that song for ages marvelling at both the sound, and at Thom Yorkes song writing genius.


Indeed, huge RadioHead/Yorke fan myself, as is Howard (genius sound designer!) who created said preset for Repro 5 and is largely responsible for Zimmer's sig sounds as you probably know. In fact, shortly following the release of Repro someone asked which he preferred DIVA or Repro and he replied Repro. It's a blast to play & program, you get 2 synths for the price of one and the sequencer in Repro 1 is old skool cool!


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## doctoremmet (Nov 5, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Indeed, huge RadioHead/Yorke fan myself, as is Howard (genius sound designer!) who created said preset for Repro 5 and is largely responsible for Zimmer's sig sounds as you probably know. In fact, shortly following the release of Repro someone asked which he preferred DIVA or Repro and he replied Repro. It's a blast to play & program, you get 2 synths for the price of one and the sequencer in Repro 1 is old skool cool!


And Radiohead recorded in AR as well, so that synth, that patch (it is also in Cypher 2 and indeed I have been known to play it for hours) through Waves TG is awesome.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> What's fascinating about Radiohead/Yorke is that in an age where pop music was getting simpler and simpler (basically every song in the 90's was trending towards I, IV, V, VI), here's a guy who's pulling out modal changes by the quarter note, writing songs that work in both 5/4 and 4/4 (looking at you, Morning Bell), putting polymeters in all over the place. And yet it never sounds contrived or cheesy, just so natural. No one has come close in my view. Dammit, I'm playing repro now, this has got me all fired up.


Radiohead is one hell of a band. Yes. ❤️


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## doctoremmet (Nov 5, 2021)

And everybody should juat get Bazille and Howard’s Cookbook.


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## Alchemedia (Nov 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> What's fascinating about Radiohead/Yorke is that in an age where pop music was getting simpler and simpler (basically every song in the 90's was trending towards I, IV, V, VI), here's a guy who's pulling out modal changes by the quarter note, writing songs that work in both 5/4 and 4/4 (looking at you, Morning Bell), putting polymeters in all over the place. And yet it never sounds contrived or cheesy, just so natural. No one has come close in my view. Dammit, I'm playing repro now, this has got me all fired up.


Exactly! I couldn't agree more. After the success of OK Computer Thom was burned-out and depressed. "Yesterday, I woke up sucking on a lemon." He threw everything out the window and reinvented himself & RadioHead, always true to his vision, unconcerned about alienating their fans, which lead to a profound musical breakthrough and arguably a superior follow up to OK Computer with Kid-A. Greenwood is of course is equally brilliant. I suspect he'll be nominated for an Oscar for his new Spencer score and perhaps robbed by Zimmer, whose score is the best thing about Dune I suppose.


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## Alchemedia (Nov 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Yo uuhave both Bzeille and Voltage Modular I believe? I looks at Bazille and it looks like VM - a massive bunch of cables and brain melt... which do you prefer? I have VM, but hardly use it - it sounds great though!


I prefer Softube Modular (best sounding, worst workflow), Voltage Modular, Reaktor + VCV Rack to Bazille.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 5, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Radiohead is one hell of a band. Yes. ❤️


What's Thom Yorke's perspective on Falcon?


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 5, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> I prefer Softube Modular (best sounding, worst workflow), Voltage Modular, Reaktor + VCV Rack to Bazille.


I blieve it was Bob Dillon who said it best: 'All I need is a saw wave, an envelope generator and the truth!'


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## Alchemedia (Nov 5, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> And everybody should juat get Bazille and Howard’s Cookbook.


The Cookbook is great and takes Bazille to another level, however if you intend to go modular eventually you may as well get your feet wet and the best way to do that economically is via VCV, VM, or STM.


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## Alchemedia (Nov 5, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> What's Thom Yorke's perspective on Falcon?


Ha! He'd no doubt prefer an Ondes Martenot and a Sequential Prophet.


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## Alchemedia (Nov 5, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> I blieve it was Bob Dillon who said it best: 'All I need is a saw wave, an envelope generator and the truth!'


No, I believe that was Simon Stockhausen's father.  Dylan wouldn't know what to do with a saw wave.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Yo uuhave both Bzeille and Voltage Modular I believe? I looks at Bazille and it looks like VM - a massive bunch of cables and brain melt... which do you prefer? I have VM, but hardly use it - it sounds great though!


Bazille. It is the best sounding synth I know. Period. That is if you like digital FM sound programming, with only a spring reverb built in.

But VM and Mark Barton’s Zeroscillator are fantastic too.

If you don’t like cables: Waves Flow Motion, or Tracktion f.-‘em


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Right, I decided enough was enough listening to the crackle of the demo repro I have. I've remade the patch in Falcon, haven't spent very long, so could probably suffer a bit more tuning, but good enough and it's bed time here in Sydney. Enjoy, let me know what you think, is it close to the repro patch?
> 
> EDIT - and I didn't go to bed, and instead I listened to the original recording and tried to get the sound closer to the original Kid A record. Attached a second version which I think is a lot closer.


Both sound amazing. The second pretty close to the original, I think; and it also sounds more 'Falcon' in that there is more going on. I really like the first attempt though. It has a lovely retro edge to it.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> The second has thorus and a widener on it, so gets more of that falcon distinctive sound. I prefer playing the first one, I like the mellower tone, and the way it pushes up against the limiter and breaks up if you play more aggressively.


Yes, I like that too. Thank you for sharing it!


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## digitallysane (Nov 5, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Bazille. It is the best sounding synth I know. Period. That is if you like digital FM sound programming, with only a spring reverb built in.


That's useful to know. Sounds great as an educational investment (with the book).
Promised myself no more synths until I feel comfortable with the MODX and Falcon.
Then I saw some Blofeld demos, which to me sound the best I've heard and have the advantage of coming from hardware.
Now this...


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## doctoremmet (Nov 5, 2021)

digitallysane said:


> Then I saw some Blofeld demos


At least get Largo then, if APD put it on one of those $19 sales again. But yes…. Howard’s sounds are REALLY educational and properly documented.


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## digitallysane (Nov 5, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> At least get Largo then, if APD put it on one of those $19 sales again. But yes…. Howard’s sounds are REALLY educational and properly documented.


I know about Largo... how can a piece of code compete with a metal built, knob infested villain? 

I have the book, but not the synth (yet...)


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## Pier (Nov 5, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> If I described in words how Zebra sounds, those words would all be things I usually like. Yet somehow it doesn't quite work for me. A lack of substance and body maybe? Which may be why it works so well in hybrid music.


IMO Zebra is a rather dark (or maybe smooth) sounding synth which is why I think it gels so well with orchestral stuff.

The thing with Zebra is that it's not very immediate. I'm not saying that because it's tedious, which it definitely is, but because it can sound rather boring? unless you figure out how to extract the nectar of gods from it.


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## Pier (Nov 5, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Richard relies more on programming wizardry in his Divinity soundset. However, if you are under the impression Falcon is only capable of clinical sounds you're focusing on the expansions and haven't explored Vintage Vault or Synth Anthology.


Aren't Vintage Vault and Synth Anthology sample based too?


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## Pier (Nov 5, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> I have all 3 and would recommend Hive & Repro 1/5 over DIVA.


You know... as much as Diva sounds great, I've never been able to go along with it. I've bought it twice now, and ended up selling it because it didn't get any use from me. Honestly, still to this day I've never understood why I don't like it.

Hive and Repro are fantastic!


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> Aren't Vintage Vault and Synth Anthology sample based too?


Yes. If you want genuine analogue sounds, the thinking is, then use genuine analogue sounds, not digital emulations. Soundpaint is doing the same thing with Ultra Deep Sampling.

Those who prefer personal direct control over the sounds with a 100% complete synth are likely to prefer the pleasing fakery of emulations over the genuine but restrictive (in only some ways) sample method.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> You know... as much as Diva sounds great, I've never been able to go along with it. I've bought it twice now, and ended up selling it because it didn't get any use from me. Honestly, still to this day I've never understood why I don't like it.
> 
> Hive and Repro are fantastic!


I feel similarly about Diva. So I bought some presets that sound a little darker to see if I could learn from them. Then got distracted by something shiny...


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## Pier (Nov 5, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Ha! He'd no doubt prefer an Ondes Martenot and a Sequential Prophet.


Johnny Greenwood is a huge fan of the Ondes Martenot:


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## Pier (Nov 5, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> Yes. If you want genuine analogue sounds, the thinking is, then use genuine analogue sounds, not digital emulations. Soundpaint is doing the same thing with Ultra Deep Sampling.
> 
> Those who prefer personal direct control over the sounds with a 100% complete synth are likely to prefer the pleasing fakery of emulations over the genuine but restrictive (in only some ways) sample method.


Honestly, as far as analog mojo, I'm perfectly satisfied with what U-He and Synapse are doing.

I've yet to try synths from Cherry Audio, but from the demos they sound glorious!


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## doctoremmet (Nov 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> Aren't Vintage Vault and Synth Anthology sample based too?


100%


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## quickbrownf0x (Nov 5, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> I totally agree. I never cared for Zebra but do own Hive, Repro & DIVA.


Blasphemy, I say!


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## Alchemedia (Nov 5, 2021)

quickbrownf0x said:


> Blasphemy, I say!


I reserve the right to change my mind if & when the mythical Z3 is released. 😎


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## Alchemedia (Nov 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> Aren't Vintage Vault and Synth Anthology sample based too?


Indeed. My point being merely to be sure to differentiate the pure synth sounds from those containing samples. Btw, Urs would despise this entire conversation.


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## Pier (Nov 5, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Richard relies more on programming wizardry in his Divinity soundset.


So I've been listening to the demos of this soundset in more detail.

It sounds great, but it's very musical and I expected it to be much more experimental. I mean, it's Richard Devine who I recognize mostly for his insane experimental music.




For reference here's the playlist of the soundset:





Alchemedia said:


> Btw, Urs would despise this entire conversation.


I'm sure he would LOL


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## Pier (Nov 5, 2021)

Ok, this track sounds more like what I expected from something by Richard Devine


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## doctoremmet (Nov 5, 2021)

Richard Devine makes some mean acid though… next to his sound design stuff… my Bandcamp tells me…


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## Pier (Nov 5, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Richard Devine makes some mean acid though… next to his sound design stuff… my Bandcamp tells me…



This is actually my favorite track by him. I find it strikes the right balance between music, sound design, experimental shit, etc.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> This is actually my favorite track by him. I find it strikes the right balance between music, sound design, experimental shit, etc.


Cool. Same here! I can tell you used to DJ back in the day


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## zwhita (Nov 5, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Falcon lovers are so into CLEAN that the correlation with them owning dirty EQ plugins is pretty high. You know, to finally add some character to the ultra clinical eerie digital sound of their French synth. Hence this talk of emulated hardware is in fact on topic.


My Falcon track template always includes 'The Drop', 'True Iron' and 'IVGI2'. Falcon already has a nice low end. Top end is just a bit glassy and brittle generally, so above plugins always remedy that. If low end is weak or uninteresting for some reason, I'll insert 'Little Radiator' in the track chain.

My problem with Vintage Vault 3 and Synth Anthology both are that the actual vintage analogue offerings have somehow had most of their character removed so that they sound closer to the vintage digital offerings. I have to wonder why they went to all that trouble to castrate these great machines?

But my attitude about vintage analogue is probably more on the purist side since I've played so many of them. Very few virtual analogue softwares have impressed me, and not a single one has really nailed it imo, so I just treat them like synths with "programmed character".

Also I really do love how Falcon sounds in my template and genuinely haven't considered buying any other Synth plugins since.


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## Pier (Nov 5, 2021)

zwhita said:


> Also I really do love how Falcon sounds in my template and genuinely haven't considered buying any other Synth plugins since.


Do you use third party libraries? Which ones do you like?


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## zwhita (Nov 5, 2021)

Haven't tried any non-UVI libraries for Falcon yet. Been too busy the last 8 months trying to get to know sample libraries. I would have to return the same question to the forum: Any non-UVI developed libraries recommended?


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## doctoremmet (Nov 5, 2021)

zwhita said:


> My problem with Vintage Vault 3 and Synth Anthology both are that the actual vintage analogue offerings have somehow had most of their character removed so that they sound closer to the vintage digital offerings.


For the record -since you seem to quote me?- I do not particularly endorse sample based “analog libraries”. They can have value, but I hardly ever use them. Like you I either like to use actual synthesis or my hardware classics


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## doctoremmet (Nov 5, 2021)

zwhita said:


> Very few virtual analogue softwares have impressed me, and not a single one has really nailed it


While on this topic I have to say that I am convinced I wouldn’t survive many A/B tests (involving my own hardware). For me this is largely mythical


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## zwhita (Nov 5, 2021)

The differences are usually subtle, but I like to think I know what to listen for. Bits of noise and saturation in the pre-VCA stage. DC offset messing with the sound staging. The pulse reset in the oscillators varying enough to create new harmonics of their own. The way the oscillator mix intermodulates. And tons of stuff I don't even understand but hear in my own gear with the filters. No one ever, ever ever gets the filters completely right. It's just too complicated.


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## zwhita (Nov 5, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I do not particularly endorse sample based “analog libraries”. They can have value, but I hardly ever use them.


I like them and actually think they are handy for certain things. I have a nostalgia for late 80's synth pop 12 inch dance mixes, and there's alot of sampled analogue in those.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 5, 2021)

zwhita said:


> The differences are usually subtle, but I like to think I know what to listen for. Bits of noise and saturation in the pre-VCA stage. DC offset messing with the sound staging. The pulse reset in the oscillators varying enough to create new harmonics of their own. The way the oscillator mix intermodulates. And tons of stuff I don't even understand but hear in my own gear with the filters. No one ever, ever ever gets the filters completely right. It's just too complicated.


You ears are better than mine


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## doctoremmet (Nov 5, 2021)




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## quickbrownf0x (Nov 5, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> I reserve the right to change my mind if & when the mythical Z3 is released. 😎







I like the way you think.


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## Pier (Nov 5, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


>



OK this sold me on Falcon @Databroth !

Now I just need to wait a couple of weeks until BF...







Edit:

@UVI can you just start your BF sales early this year? Pretty please?


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## Databroth (Nov 5, 2021)

haha awesome, I barely scratched the surface there, can't wait to dig in more with falcon


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## Alchemedia (Nov 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> Can you just start your BF sales early this year? Pretty please?


I hate to throw a monkey wrench into your well-laid BF plans, but have you considered HALion? Those who find Falcon too clinical or brittle tend to prefer HALion, which has a slight edge sampling-wise and rumour has it an update is on the horizon.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 5, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> I hate to throw a monkey wrench into your well-laid BF plans, but have you considered HALion? Those who find Falcon too clinical or brittle tend to prefer HALion, which has a slight edge sampling-wise and rumour has it an update is on the horizon.


I believe I've encountered those rumours in the form of hopes and wishful thinking... It would be lovely if it is true. I don't have HALion, but I am an admirer of HALion libraries, which have a lovely sound.


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## Pier (Nov 5, 2021)

Databroth said:


> haha awesome, I barely scratched the surface there, can't wait to dig in more with falcon


I know!

But hearing the raw results of you abusing the distortion gave me a better idea than most the demos I've heard which tend to be very polite.


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## Pier (Nov 5, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> I hate to throw a monkey wrench into your well-laid BF plans, but have you considered HALion? Those who find Falcon too clinical or brittle tend to prefer HALion, which has a slight edge sampling-wise and rumour has it an update is on the horizon.


I did in fact check Halion but very superficially to be honest. My quick impressions were that it seemed like a great sampler but so so synth. The effects of Falcon seemed better, I think?

Any third party libraries you can recommend?


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> I did in fact check Halion but very superficially to be honest. My quick impressions were that it seemed like a great sampler but so so synth. The effects of Falcon seemed better, I think?
> 
> Any third party libraries you can recommend?


For Halion? Sonic Atoms has Baltic Shimmers and Zaria which are both gorgeous, plus their free Novel Piano. Liminal is also lovely, string textures by Crocus Soundware. There aren't a huge number of third party libraries, but those are just the ones I have.


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## Pier (Nov 5, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> Sonic Atoms has Baltic Shimmers and Zaria which are both gorgeous, plus their free Novel Piano.


Woah these are just beautiful.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> Woah these are just beautiful.


Yes! They are the reason I am considering Halion longterm for making sample instruments. But they are very much sample libraries.


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## Pier (Nov 5, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> Yes! They are the reason I am considering Halion longterm for making sample instruments. But they are very much sample libraries.


Yeah, I don't think it would matter that much if it these were in Kontakt, Falcon, or Halion?


----------



## Bee_Abney (Nov 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Is this more what you're looking for in Falcon? Put this together this morning, I had a listen to your Urban Warfare bass patches - I couldn't reproduce (there's some lovely filters in Zebra by the sounds of it), but made this sound, which I quite liked. This is 100% synthesis and FX. No samples.
> View attachment Fur Pierre.mp3


Very nice!


----------



## Bee_Abney (Nov 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> Yeah, I don't think it would matter that much if it these were in Kontakt, Falcon, or Halion?


I just don't know for sure. My working hypothesis is that it does make a difference, that the engines don't playback samples with a neutral tone. SFZ instruments sound pretty much like their WAV files sound on their own. Falcon definitely doesn't. 

In any case, once you start applying processing within the player, then the character of its effects resources will start to show. 

The Omnisphere version of Baltic Shimmers sounds like Omnisphere, and not like the HALion version. But that's a bit different as Omnisphere wouldn't be able use nearly as many samples.


----------



## Pier (Nov 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Is this more what you're looking for in Falcon? Put this together this morning, I had a listen to your Urban Warfare bass patches - I couldn't reproduce (there's some lovely filters in Zebra by the sounds of it), but made this sound, which I quite liked. This is 100% synthesis and FX. No samples.
> View attachment Fur Pierre.mp3


----------



## Pier (Nov 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Glad you like it! I've added the patch to the post above with the audio. Basically, it's a wavetable (one of the stock ones from falcon), with a couple of filters on top (one of which is the new VCF-20 filter, which honestly sounds nothing like an MS-20 filter, but its good in it's own right.). The real magic is "Magnetic Bass Shaper" and I've got 3 band compression at different points in the layer and final output.


Thanks for making the patch. I'm not always making this type of stuff but it helps to hear the range of Falcon.

Cameron from Venus Theory seemed to be very happy with the MS20 filter though. I've never owned one personally.

Would you say the bass in this track is an MS20? Do you think it can be achieved with Falcon?


----------



## Pier (Nov 5, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> I just don't know for sure. My working hypothesis is that it does make a difference, that the engines don't playback samples with a neutral tone. SFZ instruments sound pretty much like their WAV files sound on their own. Falcon definitely doesn't.
> 
> In any case, once you start applying processing within the player, then the character of its effects resources will start to show.
> 
> The Omnisphere version of Baltic Shimmers sounds like Omnisphere, and not like the HALion version. But that's a bit different as Omnisphere wouldn't be able use nearly as many samples.


You know, maybe it's the timestretching algos?


----------



## Bee_Abney (Nov 6, 2021)

Pier said:


> You know, maybe it's the timestretching algos?


You're probably right. That is, that definitely would make a difference.


----------



## Alchemedia (Nov 6, 2021)

@Pier
Filters & modulation are better in Falcon
Falcon includes 1200 presets + 1GB factory library vs
HALion's 14 instruments, 40GB + 3,400 presets
HALion's granular engine handles twice max grain length and 100% position randomization
(1 second/full sample vs Falcon's 500ms max)
HALion's patch management is better than Falcon's
HALion has a macro page designer
Steinberg has confirmed a new FM engine will be included in Halion 7 among other things. H6 was released at NAMM Jan 2017. Rumour has it H7 will be released between now and then. Who know?








Steinberg HALion | Behind-the-Scenes Developer Interview


Steinberg HALion team leader Michael Ruf explains the story and the challenges they are facing during the HALion development.




synthmorph.com





For slightly more $ Absolute 5 includes:

130GB of production-ready content
Over 7,500 presets 
HALion 6 
HALion Sonic 3 packs synths, deep-sampled acoustic instruments
Amped Elektra, Backbone, and Electric Bass instruments
Sounds of Soul, Polarities, and Future Past Perfect expansions
Groove Agent 5


----------



## digitallysane (Nov 6, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Steinberg has confirmed a new FM engine will be included in Halion 7 among other things.


Where can that confirmation be read?


----------



## Alchemedia (Nov 6, 2021)

Pier said:


> I did in fact check Halion but very superficially to be honest. My quick impressions were that it seemed like a great sampler but so so synth. The effects of Falcon seemed better, I think?
> 
> Any third party libraries you can recommend?



*Iconica* (Orchestral Tools) runs in HALion








Iconica: VST Orchestra Library


Iconica was recorded in legendary Funkhaus Berlin and brings exceptional modern orchestral expression to professional composers.




www.steinberg.net






*Poly & Wave* by Danny Lux ("Manifest")



*Materials Metal and Ice* (just released)



*RAST-A*



*Vertigo Cello*








Vertigo Cello: Dark Cello VST Library for HALion


Dive deep into solo cello and trio playing techniques, with an electrifying range of articulations. The result is a rich, dark, layered sound world.




www.steinberg.net






*T-Guitar *(Acoustic Samples)


----------



## Alchemedia (Nov 6, 2021)

digitallysane said:


> Where can that confirmation be read?


I know people.


----------



## Alchemedia (Nov 6, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> God, I love *clinical precise*!


You're a doctor alright.


----------



## digitallysane (Nov 6, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> I know people.


Got it. So it's an internet rumor rather than "Steinberg has confirmed".


----------



## Bee_Abney (Nov 6, 2021)

digitallysane said:


> Got it. So it's an internet rumor rather than "Steinberg has confirmed".


I think it is an Internet rumour for us, but @Alchemedia is saying that it has been confirmed to them. So, yeah, not a public confirmation by Steinberg.


----------



## Alchemedia (Nov 6, 2021)

digitallysane said:


> Got it. So it's an internet rumor rather than "Steinberg has confirmed".


FM has been confirmed by Steinberg, a release date has not, however a HALion update is overdue and inevitable and they have the resources to easily meet or surpass Falcon with H7 features. Consider they are collaborating with OT. UVI's orchestral instruments are pathetic in comparison to Iconica! Meanwhile they're razor focused on rehashing antique synths. Don't get me wrong, I love Falcon but I'm confident Steinberg will rejuvenate HALion and surprise us.


----------



## digitallysane (Nov 6, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> FM has been confirmed by Steinberg, however a release date has not.


Can you point to that confirmation?


----------



## digitallysane (Nov 6, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> FM has been confirmed by Steinberg, a release date has not, however a HALion update is overdue and inevitable and they have the resources to easily meet or surpass Falcon with V7 features. Consider they are collaborating with OT. UVI's orchestral instruments are pathetic in comparison to Iconica.


You posted an interview from March 2018 (almost 4 years ago) above.

Can you compare the rate of development of Falcon vs Halion in those 4 years?


----------



## Bee_Abney (Nov 6, 2021)

digitallysane said:


> You posted an interview from March 2018 (almost 4 years ago) above.
> 
> Can you compare the rate of development of Falcon vs Halion in those 4 years?


I can only speak on the last ten months that I've been watching with any confidence. Falcon has received a number of updates, including the latest one last month which added incredible new features - I was particularly taken with the sequencers, others have noticed the new filter more. it is definitely an evolving, well-maintained product. Sadly, for me, UVI do not seem interested in making life easier for third-party developers.

Halion 6 is due for a a revamp if they intend to keep it a live option for developers. I'm just not sure if they are intending that. It was certainly the intention four years ago... I don't know if it has had an updates this year; but if it did, they must have been fairly minor as I haven't found a discussion of it.

Falcon isn't really a good alternative to Halion if your purposes are deep sampled instruments. But MSoundFactory might be. Falcon is easy to use (though some don't get on with it) and does sampled instruments pretty well with great synthesis on top.

I'm not sure any of these are better or as good as Kontakt for deep sampled instruments for commercial developers. But for musicians making instruments for themselves without wanting to learn scripting, I think that Kontakt can be a little frustrating.

Being in the fortunate position of having Kontakt and Falcon, I don't think I really need anything more for my purposes right now. It's just that, with so much to learn, I'd like to spend that time on whichever platform is the most likely to have the best legs for future developments in both my skills and its capacities.

Soundpaint is looking for experienced commercial developers and should be opened up to more personal, individual developments next year. But, like Kontakt, it contains limited (albeit exciting) capacities for synthesis. Really, other than a suite of cool effects, it offers only re-synthesis via morphing. Although that does happen to be the very bestest thing in the world ever!


----------



## Bee_Abney (Nov 6, 2021)

Pier said:


> Ok, this track sounds more like what I expected from something by Richard Devine



Now that, I like.


----------



## Pier (Nov 6, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> @Pier
> Filters & modulation are better in Falcon
> Falcon includes 1200 presets + 1GB factory library vs
> HALion's 14 instruments, 40GB + 3,400 presets
> ...


Thanks for the detailed comparison!

I'm mostly interested in Falcon as a very powerful synth. All the sampler stuff is welcome and will open up many interesting possibilities, but it's not really the main reason why I want to get into it.

For the past year or so I've been working on a couple of libraries for Zebra (some still unreleased) and I've hit some limitations. And let's face it, Zebra is pretty outdated in some aspects. Before deciding on Falcon, the other contender I considered seriously was Phase Plant.

I own other synths I adore like Dune or Bazille, but Falcon has a couple of unique features which will allow me to experiment with ideas I've had for many years and couldn't put into practice.


----------



## Pier (Nov 6, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> I know people.


You seem to know everyone!

Plot twist: Alchemedia is actually the alt account of Hans Zimmer.


----------



## Alchemedia (Nov 6, 2021)

Pier said:


> You seem to know everyone!
> 
> Plot twist: Alchemedia is actually the alt account of Hans Zimmer.


Oooh, bit of a dodgy observation there.


----------



## Alchemedia (Nov 6, 2021)

Steinberg was founded in 1984 and has been a wholly owned subsidiary of Yamaha since 2005 valued at $400+ bil and has 28,000 employees. Steinberg created several industry standard music technologies including VST and ASIO protocols not to mention Cubase.

In contrast, UVI is a very small company. They are apparently not interested in promoting 3rd party development despite not possessing Steinberg's industry standard tech and deep pockets.

Between the two the choice is obvious for a dev considering a Kontakt alt platform however the market is miniscule in contrast. If you are disinterested in developing for Kontakt the best alternative is HISE.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Nov 6, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Steinberg was founded in 1984 and has been a wholly owned subsidiary of Yamaha since 2005 valued at $400+ bil and has 28,000 employees. Steinberg created several industry standard music technologies including VST and ASIO protocols not to mention Cubase.
> 
> In contrast, UVI is a very small company. They are apparently not interested in promoting 3rd party development despite not possessing Steinberg's industry standard tech and deep pockets.
> 
> Between the two the choice is obvious for a dev considering a Kontakt alt platform however the market is miniscule in contrast. If you are disinterested in developing for Kontakt the best alternative is HISE.


Excellent advice. HISE or something similar (depending on where I end up heading) would be something I'd be looking into if I was doing commercial sample libraries. My idea would be that those that have bought Kontakt can afford better than anything I'd have to offer; and the licensing for the Kontakt Player rules out nominal paying-for-the-bandwidth prices.

Unlike some others on here, I'm still very much at the beginning of learning sound design and am just making instruments for my own music. It likely won't go further than that.

My thinking, incidentally, is that soft synths like Falcon could be used in the sound design chain for instruments that end up in Kontakt or HALion, or a vst. At the moment I'm planning to sample sounds out of Falcon that use CPU heavy effects and reload them in a less CPU-intensive form - either back into Falcon (most likely) or Kontakt for easier use. I've got some layers of glass sounds, all using IRCAM stretch in high quality. I can't play them all at once that way without everything breaking up (or is that down?); but if I sample the stretched versions and reload them as separate samples across the keys, I should be able to get the sounds I want in a more usable form.


----------



## Nico5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Steinberg was founded in 1984 and has been a wholly owned subsidiary of Yamaha since 2005 valued at $400+ bil and has 28,000 employees. Steinberg created several industry standard music technologies including VST and ASIO protocols not to mention Cubase.
> 
> In contrast, UVI is a very small company. They are apparently not interested in promoting 3rd party development despite not possessing Steinberg's industry standard tech and deep pockets.
> 
> Between the two the choice is obvious for a dev considering a Kontakt alt platform however the market is miniscule in contrast. If you are disinterested in developing for Kontakt the best alternative is HISE.


speaking of very small companies, have you ever experimented with MSoundFactory?


----------



## Bee_Abney (Nov 6, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> speaking of very small companies, have you ever experimented with MSoundFactory?


Maybe we need a similar MSoundFactory thread? That's another powerful synth that handles sample instruments well and that not so many people seem to be using, but of which certain personages of this parish are rather fond. It is supposedly good for physical modelling too; although the demos I've heard did not make me think it would be the best choice for that.


----------



## doctoremmet (Nov 6, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> speaking of very small companies, have you ever experimented with MSoundFactory?


It is an excellent synth. Deepest one out there, capable of Inception levels of synthesis. Also contains ALL of Melda’s more than excellent effects. Highly recommend it for true programmers. For preset-heads… not so much haha.


----------



## doctoremmet (Nov 6, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> Maybe we need a similar MSoundFactory thread?


Please dear God no. Every other post would be about “I hate the Melda UI”


----------



## Alchemedia (Nov 6, 2021)

@Pier
I'd wager you can count the # of sound designers actually making a viable profit selling *synth presets* _independently_ on two hands.


----------



## digitallysane (Nov 6, 2021)

The size of company might or might not matter.
The resources (and attention) put by a company into a particular product is what matters.
Falcon is probably more important to UVI than Halion is to Steinberg.
Halion's development has been at a standstill for years, which shows that Steinberg is not willing to put resorces into it (for whatever reason).
If a new Halion version shows up it'll be years late already, even with nice features like FM etc. And it'll be a paid upgrade and followed by another decade of non-development.
This is the complete opposite of how UVI treats Falcon.


----------



## doctoremmet (Nov 6, 2021)

That and Waves WUP posts… Ughhh


----------



## Alchemedia (Nov 6, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Please dear God no. Every other post would be about “I hate the Melda UI”


Freakshow Industries set the bar IMO.


----------



## doctoremmet (Nov 6, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Freakshow Industries set the bar IMO.


Totally different case though. Their stuff is revered haha. Anyway… I digress. Don’t mind me


----------



## doctoremmet (Nov 6, 2021)

digitallysane said:


> The size of company might or might not matter.
> The resources (and attention) put by a company into a particular product is what matters.
> Falcon is probably more important to UVI than Halion is to Steinberg.
> Halion's development has been at a standstill for years, which shows that Steinberg is not willing to put resorces into it (for whatever reason).
> ...


Accurate analysis. Steinberg is a Yamaha company. UVI seems way more agile (less ‘corporate culture’?) and focused to be honest - in the context of further developing their synth platform.


----------



## Alchemedia (Nov 6, 2021)

digitallysane said:


> The size of company might or might not matter.
> The resources (and attention) put by a company into a particular product is what matters.
> Falcon is probably more important to UVI than Halion is to Steinberg.
> Halion's development has been at a standstill for years, which shows that Steinberg is not willing to put resorces into it (for whatever reason).
> ...


True, however, Falcon is UVI's flagship. Without it they'd have nothing to sell. I doubt Steinberg would have brought OT aboard if they had no plans to further enhance HALion. Don't get me wrong, I much prefer Falcon synth-wise. But UVI could easily go the way of Roli or get bought out by the likes of Francisco Partners ala NI & iZotope.


----------



## Alchemedia (Nov 6, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Accurate analysis. Steinberg is a Yamaha company. UVI seems way more agile (less ‘corporate culture’?) and focused to be honest - in the context of further developing their synth platform.


Sure, being a punk anarchist I'd much prefer to work for UVI. I believe they're privately held, but If they ever go public I should be declared an honorary stockholder. 

@Pier BTW UVI is.currently seeking sound designers.


----------



## Alchemedia (Nov 6, 2021)

I agree. Melda is great in general. Not the fanciest UI"s but incredibly powerful under the hood. Very generous dev offering excellent freebies too! 



doctoremmet said:


> It is an excellent synth. Deepest one out there, capable of Inception levels of synthesis. Also contains ALL of Melda’s more than excellent effects. Highly recommend it for true programmers. For preset-heads… not so much haha.


----------



## Nico5 (Nov 6, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> It is an excellent synth. Deepest one out there, capable of Inception levels of synthesis. Also contains ALL of Melda’s more than excellent effects. Highly recommend it for true programmers. For preset-heads… not so much haha.


very much agreed with all your points.

Next thing on my list to experiment with MSoundFactory is morphing, since that seems to have become a "thing" over the last couple of weeks 

Also maybe the least onerous to commercialize one's creations (including sample compression, copy protection and serial numbers) and deliver it via a free player. 

Also free updates forever. -- While clearly nothing is really forever, the Melda track record so far is promise kept. 

And for building custom fx, there's MXXX with pretty much the identical UI and workflow (if you can get used to "the Melda way", and many people clearly can't)

Downsides: 
Small company depending on genius founder. 
No scripting - although that could also be considered somewhat of an upside. Except you *can* code your own reverb algorithm. 


p.s. Another interesting newcomer for building your own sampler/synth is Hyperion by WaveSequencer (another single person company). We're living in a golden age of choices for customers. -- Tough environment for commercial soundware and software developers, though (if I remember the "supply and demand" lessons of my Economics 101 classes correctly).


----------



## Pier (Nov 6, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> @Pier
> I'd wager you can count the # of sound designers actually making a viable profit selling *synth presets* _independently_ on two hands.


Yeah probably 

Why do you say that though?



Alchemedia said:


> But UVI could easily go the way of Roli or get bought out by the likes of Francisco Partners ala NI & iZotope.



I doubt UVI will go the way of Roli. Roli never found product market fit, unlike UVI which has been in the audio software industry for 20 years. Spectrasonics' first products were built with UVI tech.

They could definitely get bought. I'm actually surprised it hasn't happened yet. UVI's DSP and programming chops are as good as the best.


----------



## Alchemedia (Nov 6, 2021)

digitallysane said:


> The size of company might or might not matter.
> The resources (and attention) put by a company into a particular product is what matters.
> Falcon is probably more important to UVI than Halion is to Steinberg.
> Halion's development has been at a standstill for years, which shows that Steinberg is not willing to put resorces into it (for whatever reason).
> ...


HALion is far more powerful and sophisticated than the vast majority of synths in its present state and they continue to release a wide variety of soundsets, so they prob don't feel any urgency.



Pier said:


> Yeah probably
> 
> Why do you say that though?


I dabbled in it myself but being a coder decided learning HISE is a better long term investment for me.


----------



## Pier (Nov 6, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> @Pier BTW UVI is.currently seeking sound designers.


Thanks, I'm flattered you think I could be a pro


----------



## Pier (Nov 6, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> I dabbled in it myself but being a coder decided learning HISE is a better long term investment for me.


I'm a coder too! I'm actually building an audio hosting SaaS.

Of course I've considered getting into the audio dev world... it seems pretty intimidating though. I did C++ years ago and I'm comfortable designing and programming UIs, but the DSP stuff scares me.

Do you have anything available for HISE?


----------



## Alchemedia (Nov 6, 2021)

Spitfire inspired promo.


----------



## Nico5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Spitfire inspired promo.



I sometimes wonder, if the ratio of marketing costs vs. development costs has been shifting towards higher marketing expenses - maybe for soundware even more so than for software, since arguably the competition is even more plentiful.
p.s. in my mental model, soundware vs. software is on a spectrum, so (like many things in life), not always strictly one or the other.


----------



## José Herring (Nov 6, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Richard Devine makes some mean acid though… next to his sound design stuff… my Bandcamp tells me…



The dude just has the best electronica sounds. I love his stuff.


----------



## Pier (Nov 6, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> I sometimes wonder, if the ratio of marketing costs vs. development costs has been shifting towards higher marketing expenses - maybe for soundware even more so than for software, since arguably the competition is even more plentiful.


I definitely agree B2C companies in general have been improving their marketing a lot during the past 10 years or so.

I wonder if it's because of the competition or simply because better marketing generally means more sales.

I also think the shift to online marketing and ecommerce has probably had a big influence on this.


----------



## Pier (Nov 6, 2021)

BF is still weeks away...


----------



## chrisboy (Nov 7, 2021)

Pier said:


> I'm a coder too! I'm actually building an audio hosting SaaS.
> 
> Of course I've considered getting into the audio dev world... it seems pretty intimidating though. I did C++ years ago and I'm comfortable designing and programming UIs, but the DSP stuff scares me.
> 
> Do you have anything available for HISE?


You don‘t need to do custom DSP programming in HISE unless you want to. 

The best resource you can find for learning HISE is David Healey‘s patreon account.


----------



## digitallysane (Nov 7, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> HALion is far more powerful and sophisticated than the vast majority of synths in its present state and they continue to release a wide variety of soundsets, so they prob don't feel any urgency.


So is Omnisphere, so is Falcon... yet they still evolve.
No matter the reason, HALion development *is* practicaly frozen and has been so for some time.
Maybe its current status is useful enough for Steinberg, maybe they don't feel like competing in the overcrowded synth market but also don't feel like abandoning it since it's a useful platform for making a buck via soundsets with little effort...
Dunno, but everybody, including you, agrees that an update is long, long overdue so I can't buy the argument that "it doesn't need to evolve cause it's too good already".
Anyway, why is this Falcon thread about Halion, actually?


----------



## doctoremmet (Nov 7, 2021)

Haha well… I’d argue you have a big influence on it being about Halion a lot, lol


----------



## digitallysane (Nov 7, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Haha well… I’d argue you have a big influence on it being about Halion a lot, lol


Well, it's not like I came on a Falcon thread and said "hey people stop being so enthusiastic about Falcon and better get this other software that had no development in 5 years, I know from people that I know that it's gonna smash Falcon" etc. These things do need to be replied to, to say the least.


----------



## doctoremmet (Nov 7, 2021)

digitallysane said:


> These things do need to be replied to, to say the least.


Haha, really? Ok hehe


----------



## Bee_Abney (Nov 7, 2021)

So, I've got some really exciting news about HALion 7! Just wait 'til I tell you!

No, no; this is not the place. Sorry, as you were.


----------



## doctoremmet (Nov 7, 2021)

This reminds me of that one LCD Soundsystem song, called I’m Losing My Edge


I hear you're buying a synthesizer and an arpeggiator and are throwing your computer out the window because you want to make something real. You want to make a Yaz record.

I hear that you and your band have sold your guitars and bought turntables.

I hear that you and your band have sold your turntables and bought guitars.

*I hear everybody that you know is more relevant than everybody that I know.*

But have you seen my records? This Heat, Pere Ubu, Outsiders, Nation of Ulysses, Mars, The Trojans, The Black Dice, Todd Terry, the Germs, Section 25, Althea and Donna, Sexual Harrassment, a-ha, Pere Ubu, Dorothy Ashby, PIL, the Fania All-Stars, the Bar-Kays, the Human League, the Normal, Lou Reed, Scott Walker, Monks, Niagra, Joy Division, Lower 48, the Association, Sun Ra, Scientists, Royal Trux, 10cc, Eric B. and Rakim, Index, Basic Channel, Soulsonic Force ("just hit me"!), Juan Atkins, David Axelrod, Electric Prunes, Gil! Scott! Heron!, the Slits, Faust, Mantronix, Pharaoh Sanders and the Fire Engines, the Swans, the Soft Cell, the Sonics, the Sonics, the Sonics, the Sonics.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Nov 7, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> This reminds me of that one LCD Soundsystem song, called I’m Losing My Edge
> 
> 
> I hear you're buying a synthesizer and an arpeggiator and are throwing your computer out the window because you want to make something real. You want to make a Yaz record.
> ...


'But I'm losing my edge to better-looking people with better ideas and more talent.
And they're actually really, really nice.'

Genius!


----------



## doctoremmet (Nov 7, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> 'But I'm losing my edge to better-looking people with better ideas and more talent.
> And they're actually really, really nice.'
> 
> Genius!



This whole band is genius. North American Scum. Yeah Yeah Yeah (Crass version). Someone Great. All bangers. Dance Yrself Clean!!


----------



## doctoremmet (Nov 7, 2021)

That bit from 4:17 onwards has got to be some of the dirtiest techno ever…


----------



## Bee_Abney (Nov 7, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> That bit from 4:17 onwards has got to be some of the dirtiest techno ever…



Yeah?


----------



## Lindon (Nov 7, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> If you are disinterested in developing for Kontakt the best alternative is HISE.


If you are disinterested in developing for any owned and proprietary platform (e.g. Kontakt, Halion, Falcon, SoundPaint,) then the best alternative is HISE, which will give you independent VST, AU, AAX, stand alone capabilities, but its a development platform NOT just a synth/sampler.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Nov 7, 2021)

digitallysane said:


> Well, it's not like I came on a Falcon thread and said "hey people stop being so enthusiastic about Falcon and better get this other software that had no development in 5 years, I know from people that I know that it's gonna smash Falcon" etc. These things do need to be replied to, to say the least.


Sorry, we've gone wildly off tangent now.

I love Falcon and you can get incredible sounds out of it of a wide variety. I can't remember who it was, but someone suggested that using it inside of Vienna Ensemble Pro, even on the same computer as your DAW, helps a lot with the CPE usage. I'm guessing, then, that otherwise it has a tendency to use the same core as the DAW. I'm not sure. It would be an expensive experiment as I don't have Vienna Ensemble Pro.

Does anyone have VEP who can comment? Or simply understand what technical aspects are involved.


----------



## doctoremmet (Nov 7, 2021)

Falcon runs on one core. But running VEP just for Falcon seems overkill to be honest.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Nov 7, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Falcon runs on one core. But running VEP just for Falcon seems overkill to be honest.


Yes, one core; though I am sceptical that going multicore would solve the usage issues.

VEP for a single instrument is extreme; but if it is in use anyway the question remains whether it makes a difference.


----------



## digitallysane (Nov 7, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> Sorry, we've gone wildly off tangent now.


Well, this thread seemed to be one of those rare situations in which something really interesting and constructive was proposed, and I would have certainly enjoyed it staying on course.
All this lasted for half of its first page, then as it always happens, it went into the same things repeated ad nauseam in any other thread: my fav synth vs your fav synth, modular is better (but which one? let's discuss), effects, this manufacturer, that manufacturer and then settled in a strangely insistent pitch of Halion/Steinberg against Falcon and UVI. Maybe I'm just grumpy from being at work on Sunday, but all this doesn't seem very useful. And as correctly pointed by the astute @doctoremmet, I'm as guilty of all this mess as any other.


Bee_Abney said:


> I love Falcon and you can get incredible sounds out of it of a wide variety. I can't remember who it was, but someone suggested that using it inside of Vienna Ensemble Pro, even on the same computer as your DAW, helps a lot with the CPE usage.


I can't confirm this happening inside Nuendo, the Falcon performance in multitrack sessions is good (also combined with multiple UVI Workstation and UVI Walker tracks).


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## doctoremmet (Nov 7, 2021)

digitallysane said:


> Maybe I'm just grumpy from being at work on Sunday, but all this doesn't seem very useful.


Who’s forcing you to read it?


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## digitallysane (Nov 7, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Who’s forcing you to read it?


You.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 7, 2021)

Oh? For sure haha. 😂👍


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## Double Helix (Nov 7, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> That bit from 4:17 onwards has got to be some of the dirtiest techno ever…



D*MN!
(Now I need to take a long shower)


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## Pier (Nov 7, 2021)

chrisboy said:


> You don‘t need to do custom DSP programming in HISE unless you want to.
> 
> The best resource you can find for learning HISE is David Healey‘s patreon account.


I have indeed checked HISE a couple of times. It is a really interesting project. Congratulations!


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## Nico5 (Nov 7, 2021)

digitallysane said:


> Well, this thread seemed to be one of those rare situations in which something really interesting and constructive was proposed, and I would have certainly enjoyed it staying on course.
> All this lasted for half of its first page, then as it always happens, it went into the same things repeated ad nauseam in any other thread: my fav synth vs your fav synth, modular is better (but which one? let's discuss), ...



I think this is the case in pretty much every independent forum I frequent on a somewhat regular basis.

On one hand I understand your sentiment. It's frustrating if a conversation drifts from the original topic of interest. -- On the other hand, conversations happen in the context of the participants. And in the case of online conversations, the participants are largely determined by the online location of the conversation.

Some forums (and similar discussion places) are more tightly focused on a single topic (e.g. single manufacturer or single tool). -- Others are more independent gathering places for conversations of individuals interested in broader topics served by multiple manufacturers and/or tools. -- And some websites have forums (and resulting threads) of both kinds. vi-control is one of these.

This particular vi-control sub-forum is independent and thus attended by a wider audience. So conversations will drift more, very much like in all other independent forums I attend regularly.

And personally I find this a feature (not a bug) of independent forums. They are the places I seek for comparative information between tools, since where else am I going to get that?

For more focused conversations, chances are much better in forums dedicated to a particular supplier or tool, and when I really want to find places that stay more on topic, I tend to go to those forums. So for staying on a Falcon topic, Falcontinuum might be a less frustrating place for you.

And to take it further, I'm actually even annoyed at very (not very orchestration specific) general Cubase questions being asked here first, rather than at the Steinberg forums.

p.s. I have several of the other major contenders in the big combination sampler/synth space. And I probably would already have bought Falcon to add to my collection, if there was ever a 50% off sale for the software itself. It's pretty much how I got to my current collection in the first place (Omnisphere being the exception). I'm less interested in "free additional content" sales, since lately I'm drawn more to making my own sounds than using 3rd party libraries. But I've only seen a max of 30% off on Falcon sales.

I originally entered this thread (like quite a few other Falcon threads) to see what I might be missing with Falcon that I don't already have with HALion, MSoundFactory, Omnisphere, Hyperion, Kontakt, Reaktor, etc.

The posts by individuals doing some comparisons between Falcon and some of those that I already have, are valuable to me - and the posts mentioning HISE, too!


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## Pier (Nov 7, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> I have several of the other major contenders in the big combination sampler/synth space. And I probably would already have bought Falcon to add to my collection, if there was ever a 50% off sale for the software itself. It's pretty much how I got to my current collection in the first place (Omnisphere being the exception). I'm less interested in "free additional content" sales, since lately I'm drawn more to making my own sounds than using 3rd party libraries. But I've only seen a max of 30% off on Falcon sales.


Definitely agree with you.

Personally, I'd love to see manufacturers selling instruments without content at a lower price. Maybe call it something cool like "sound designer's edition" 

Regarding UVI, I get why they would give a $100 voucher when getting Falcon. The factory presets aren't great, so expand it with whatever type of sounds you prefer. I'm not sure it's a good strategy though considering Falcon is generally regarded (at least here on VIC) as a sound design playground.


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## digitallysane (Nov 7, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> to see what I might be missing with Falcon that I don't already have with HALion, MSoundFactory, Omnisphere, Hyperion, Kontakt, Reaktor, etc.


Sonically, nothing.


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## Alchemedia (Nov 7, 2021)

Pier said:


> Definitely agree with you.
> 
> Personally, I'd love to see manufacturers selling instruments without content at a lower price. Maybe call it something cool like "sound designer's edition"
> 
> Regarding UVI, I get why they would give a $100 voucher when getting Falcon. *The factory presets aren't great*, so expand it with whatever type of sounds you prefer. I'm not sure it's a good strategy though considering Falcon is generally regarded (at least here on VIC) as a sound design playground.


Couldn't disagree more. Although I prefer making my own patches I think Falcon's Factory library is an excellent showcase of the vast possibilities Falcon has to offer, which is the point.


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## Pier (Nov 7, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Couldn't disagree more. Although I prefer making my own patches I think Falcon's Factory library is an excellent showcase of the vast possibilities Falcon has to offer, which is the point.


I don't own Falcon (yet) so I admit I've never actually heard the factory library for real. I based my opinion on the Youtube videos I've seen and many comments I've read here on VIC saying something like "don't buy Falcon for the presets, buy it for sound design".

I'll let you know my opinion in a couple of weeks!


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## Alchemedia (Nov 7, 2021)

Pier said:


> I don't own Falcon (yet) so I admit I've never actually heard the factory library for real. I based my opinion on the Youtube videos I've seen and many comments I've read here on VIC saying something like "*don't buy Falcon for the presets, buy it for sound design*".
> 
> I'll let you know my opinion in a couple of weeks!


I think it would be more accurate to say Falcon excels as a sound design tool. As I mentioned earlier it's an overly complex synth for typical "patch surfers". That's not to say the factory content isn't excellent, it is, however you get far more presets with many other synths at a similar price point such as Arturia's V Collection.


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## cmillar (Nov 8, 2021)

Since buying Falcon, I've removed Omnisphere from my system.

Sure, Omnisphere is pretty great. But it's nice to work with a real 'sound creation' machine that can be used for more than just ominous pads and end-of-the-world drones that end up sounding like everybody else in the world.

I know....Omnisphere can create playable synths and arpeggiated stuff. 

But, in the end, one has to go with what feels most conducive to a creative workflow and musical inspiration.

I just do my thing for myself and people that happen to like what I do within my relatively small musical circles. So, I don't have the pressure to produce something that sounds like the latest-greatest social-media influenced sound of the day or something that sounds like it's temping the latest superhero action movie soundtrack.

Speaking on behalf of many musicians, we find UVI instruments and sound libraries to be very inspiring; and most of all and most importantly to me, very musicianly-oriented.


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## digitallysane (Nov 8, 2021)

cmillar said:


> and most of all and most importantly to me, very musicianly-oriented.


I find it interesting that a lot of people describe Falcon primarily as a sound design tool.
I do agree with you, Falcon feels like a musical instrument, and in that respect it's kinda closer to a flagship hardware synth like Kronos or Montage (I find its organization to be surprisingly similar to my MODX).
While it can obviously do nice sound design, I find it much more of a musical instrument (which you would perform on) than something like MSoundFactory or PhasePlant.


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## Pier (Nov 8, 2021)

digitallysane said:


> While it can obviously do nice sound design, I find it much more of a musical instrument (which you would perform on) than something like MSoundFactory or PhasePlant.


Could you elaborate on this?

Why would Falcon be more of a musical instrument than say Phase Plant?


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## digitallysane (Nov 8, 2021)

Pier said:


> Could you elaborate on this?
> 
> Why would Falcon be more of a musical instrument than say Phase Plant?


The whole organization thing with Falcon (Multis, Programs), including the fact that it actually has a Mixer and a Performance tab (you can do live performances from Falcon standalone if you want to), a lot of attention on Sequencers/sequencing toolset for creating actual musical phrases, the approach of favouring the layering of various synth modules to get a nice musical part instead of a very technical approach that lets one modulate everything with everything (Reaktor, MSF and other).

Again, it feels like a software version of a flagship hardware synth: very capable to do synthesis, but also definitely made to make and play music in the first place.


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## Alchemedia (Nov 8, 2021)

cmillar said:


> Since buying Falcon, I've removed Omnisphere from my system.


Same here.


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## estevancarlos (Nov 10, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> God, I love *clinical precise*!


I basically associate that with IRCAM.


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## estevancarlos (Nov 10, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> I think it would be more accurate to say Falcon excels as a sound design tool. As I mentioned earlier it's an overly complex synth for typical "patch surfers". That's not to say the factory content isn't excellent, it is, however you get far more presets with many other synths at a similar price point such as Arturia's V Collection.


I think Arturia's UX and is important to note. It is much better at organizing presets. You can tag and categorize them. Easier to find content. Falcon doesn't offer that. Falcon is definitely better as a complex synth.


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## applegrovebard (Dec 11, 2021)

I am simultaneously strongly attracted to and repelled by MSoundfactory (I've just tried the demo). The vast crazy synthesis and fx possibilities obviously. Actually I'm often weirdly drawn to off-putting synths- oddities and ugly ducklings not 'on point' trendwise- I'm not sure if it's sympathy/feeling sorry for them or just plain perversity on my part... I really don't like the look of the guis that the synths within MSoundfactory have been given (the standard look of their fx I find ok). But if they stop labelling mics as 'mikes'- that might be enough for me to jump aboard...


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 11, 2021)

applegrovebard said:


> I am simultaneously strongly attracted to and repelled by MSoundfactory (I've just tried the demo). The vast crazy synthesis and fx possibilities obviously. Actually I'm often weirdly drawn to off-putting synths- oddities and ugly ducklings not 'on point' trendwise- I'm not sure if it's sympathy/feeling sorry for them or just plain perversity on my part... I really don't like the look of the guis that the synths within MSoundfactory have been given (the standard look of their fx I find ok). But if they stop labelling mics as 'mikes'- that might be enough for me to jump aboard...


It's The Imp of the Perverse.








The Imp of the Perverse (short story) - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org





I find a weird psychological effect of less 'polished' GUIs is that the plugin initially sounds less polished to me. But I soon get over it.

MSoundFactory is very good indeed and likely to continue getting better.


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