# Looking forward to see OT : Berlin Strings, Woodwinds, Brass, and Perc. released in SINE format.



## muziksculp (Jun 10, 2021)

I wonder how long until they get these libraries released in SINE format.

The sooner than better.


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## doctoremmet (Jun 10, 2021)

Did your therapist advise to deflect your thinking away from another brand of unreleased strings by creating a new thread - or is your mind generally speaking just preoccupied with ALL unreleased libraries? Or are you enjoying the anticipation of new things in general?

Asking for a friend.


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## Haakond (Jun 10, 2021)

I remember them announcing that they will record fff for Berlin Brass, so I guess they are waiting for that before they release it for SINE.


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## muziksculp (Jun 10, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Did your therapist advise to deflect your thinking away from another brand of unreleased strings by creating a new thread - or is your mind generally speaking just preoccupied with ALL unreleased libraries? Or are you enjoying the anticipation of new things in general?
> 
> Asking for a friend.


Yes, I consulted with my therapist about how to deal with the Sonokinetic Strings library release, and he recommended posting a new topic to deflect my attention to a new un-released library/s .

Hopefully it will ease the pain of waiting for the Sonokinetic Strings library 

Hehe.. and I will be forwarding the Consultation bill to Sonokinetic.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 10, 2021)

For some of their recent conversions, they didn't port over all of the Kontakt functionality. I'm really hoping that's not the case for future libraries. If anything, I would want them to _improve_ the workflow and functionality (which has not happened for SINE at all yet).


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## muziksculp (Jun 10, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> For some of their recent conversions, they didn't port over all of the Kontakt functionality. I'm really hoping that's not the case for future libraries. If anything, I would want them to _improve_ the workflow and functionality (which has not happened for SINE at all yet).


Hmmm... So now it's their custom made SINE player that's not able to deliver as good a functionality as Kontakt did ? I don't get it. You would think it would be just the opposite. 

Plus, they still have not been able to fix the SINE issue for BSS as far as mic-merging, and additional refinements/fixes to the library. Meanwhile they are releasing other libraries. I wonder if their development team is stretched too thin.


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## A.Heppelmann (Jun 10, 2021)

I emailed OT a while back asking this very question, and the impression I got was that the whole collection would take months, not years, to be released in SINE. But that was a month ago, and we haven't seen anything since then, so...


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 10, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hmmm... So now it's their custom made SINE player that's not able to deliver as good a functionality as Kontakt did ? I don't get it. You would think it would be just the opposite.
> 
> Plus, they still have not been able to fix the SINE issue for BSS as far as mic-merging, and additional refinements/fixes to the library. Meanwhile they are releasing other libraries. I wonder if their development team is stretched too thin.


Turns out Kontakt is a really mature platform. SINE is one of the more basic custom sample players out there (look at what you can do in Synchron Player or even Spitfire's player - especially with the work they did for Symphonic Motions). OT seems to be interested in focusing on compression algorithms - but it doesn't seem like people are having trouble with 300GB libraries these days.


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## muziksculp (Jun 10, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Turns out Kontakt is a really mature platform. SINE is one of the more basic custom sample players out there (look at what you can do in Synchron Player or even Spitfire's player - especially with the work they did for Symphonic Motions). OT seems to be interested in focusing on compression algorithms - but it doesn't seem like people are having trouble with 300GB libraries these days.


I'm sure OT will add more functionality to SINE as it matures. But the pace they do that is also an important factor. I don't see them doing much so far to improve SINE.


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## muziksculp (Jun 10, 2021)

A.Heppelmann said:


> I emailed OT a while back asking this very question, and the impression I got was that the whole collection would take months, not years, to be released in SINE. But that was a month ago, and we haven't seen anything since then, so...


Yes, nothing since. I remember, I was hoping that by June the latest, their entire Berlin Library catalog would be ported to SINE, sadly that hasn't happened. The pace is very slow porting them. Not sure why.


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## Evans (Jun 10, 2021)

I've not had any Orchestral Tools SINE libraries from their Kontakt days. I only have pure SINE, post-conversion SINE, and still-unconverted Kontakt releases. Have we seen any improvements beyond anything unique to SINE Player itself (like Merge Merge)? Beyond this extra layer for Berlin Brass, do we expect anything?


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## jbuhler (Jun 10, 2021)

Evans said:


> I've not had any Orchestral Tools SINE libraries from their Kontakt days. I only have pure SINE, post-conversion SINE, and still-unconverted Kontakt releases. Have we seen any improvements beyond anything unique to SINE Player itself (like Merge Merge)? Beyond this extra layer for Berlin Brass, do we expect anything?


I think Sine generally has less functionality but better design so it‘s easier to accomplish things that both Kontakt and Sine versions do. So far I have preferred the Sine versions of libraries where own both, and by a lot. Another thing Sine offers that Kontakt doesn’t is access to all keyswitches in a single patch. As I recall Capsule is limited to a dozen articulations, and you can’t always combine them the way you want.


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## Evans (Jun 11, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I think Sine generally has less functionality but better design so it‘s easier to accomplish things that both Kontakt and Sine versions do. So far I have preferred the Sine versions of libraries where own both, and by a lot. Another thing Sine offers that Kontakt doesn’t is access to all keyswitches in a single patch. As I recall Capsule is limited to a dozen articulations, and you can’t always combine them the way you want.


Yep. SINE absolutely has fewer capabilities than Kontakt, though the polymap and mic merge features are fantastic.

But I'm asking more about "what _other _improvements are we expecting?"

Sure, we'll gain polymaps and mic merge. We've heard we'll get a new layer up top for the brass. But what else? For these conversions, has OT historically been resolving, I don't know, balancing issues? Are they removing bad takes that are sore spots in round robins, or leaving them in?


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## AEF (Jun 11, 2021)

Evans said:


> Yep. SINE absolutely has fewer capabilities than Kontakt, though the polymap and mic merge features are fantastic.
> 
> But I'm asking more about "what _other _improvements are we expecting?"
> 
> Sure, we'll gain polymaps and mic merge. We've heard we'll get a new layer up top for the brass. But what else? For these conversions, has OT historically been resolving, I don't know, balancing issues? Are they removing bad takes that are sore spots in round robins, or leaving them in?


Polymaps exist in Capsule, and are more robust there.


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## holywilly (Jun 11, 2021)

I do find the overall sounds are more pronounced and detailed than it was in kontakt, Berlin strings special bows for example. Maybe OT remastered the samples. Now I have high expectations of Berlin Strings in SINE. And I’m using SINE every single day for scoring, it’s very stable and there’s no single crash whatsoever.


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## zimm83 (Jun 11, 2021)

Pffffff. I love my kontakt OT libraries. Soooooo good !


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## jbuhler (Jun 11, 2021)

Evans said:


> Yep. SINE absolutely has fewer capabilities than Kontakt, though the polymap and mic merge features are fantastic.
> 
> But I'm asking more about "what _other _improvements are we expecting?"
> 
> Sure, we'll gain polymaps and mic merge. We've heard we'll get a new layer up top for the brass. But what else? For these conversions, has OT historically been resolving, I don't know, balancing issues? Are they removing bad takes that are sore spots in round robins, or leaving them in?


They squashed some existing bugs with the Kontakt version of the Arks when they ported those. But I don’t expect any major revisions with the Sine versions, aside from the new layer for the Berlin Brass.


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## turnerofwheels (Jun 11, 2021)

Kind of curious what will happen to the legacy woods. That's a whole lot of instruments to port when they get around to BWW--but the legacy has the runs builders and Sine (afaik) doesn't have that kind of functionality yet.
Maybe they have to update Sine before getting around to the main orchestral libraries?


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## muziksculp (Jun 11, 2021)

turnerofwheels said:


> Maybe they have to update Sine before getting around to the main orchestral libraries?


Well, SINE is expected to have an update to fix the BSS Mic-Merge feature, still waiting for months to see this happen. SINE can surely use some new features, and improvements, when ? is the big question.


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## axb312 (Jun 13, 2021)

Can anyone comment on the difference in Hard Disk space consumed for Metropolis Ark 1 on Kontakt vs Sine?

Also, is it possible to merge between instruments from two different libraries using CC1?


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## A.Heppelmann (Jun 20, 2021)

I wonder if OT is having to re-record some of the woodwind expansion libraries to match the microphone options for Revive? Both the Additional Woodwinds and Woodwinds SFX lack the ORTF and second close microphones, and I find it difficult to mix these with the core library. I'd understand the long delay here if it meant they were busy updating the older expansions.


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## muziksculp (Jun 21, 2021)

Hopefully they will be able to release some more of their Berlin Libraries next month. 

That's more than 6 months since they announced SINE. I was expecting them to have all of their Berlin Series libraries ported to SINE by now, sadly that's not the case.


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## Artemi (Jun 21, 2021)

A.Heppelmann said:


> I wonder if OT is having to re-record some of the woodwind expansion libraries to match the microphone options for Revive? Both the Additional Woodwinds and Woodwinds SFX lack the ORTF and second close microphones, and I find it difficult to mix these with the core library. I'd understand the long delay here if it meant they were busy updating the older expansions.


I don't think that they need to record something since the old legacy woodwinds were recorded with all those mics
and here Tobias confirms it...




__





Orchestral Tools Woodwind Soloists 1 & 2 SINE versions released


I responded in another thread to a similar comment, but here it goes again: Change the transition to re-tongue and it is much smoother... at least in Kontakt. I haven't tried the sine versions yet. I've had the Kontakt versions for a while and have been very happy with them. Thanks...i read...



vi-control.net





How do you like the additional woodwinds dynamic range btw?
I can't find lots of demos for those, do you have any audio where do you use them?
thanks


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## A.Heppelmann (Jun 21, 2021)

Artemi said:


> How do you like the additional woodwinds dynamic range btw?
> I can't find lots of demos for those, do you have any audio where do you use them?
> thanks


To be honest, I'm not as impressed with the additional woodwinds expansion. I've never really used the legacy woodwinds patches from Berlin Woodwinds, but I'd imagine that they're similar to the current version of the additional woodwinds. Dynamics are fine (I think p, mf, and ff), but there really should be at least one more layer in my opinion. My main problems with the library are the mic options (which you suggested might be updated!), and that they only included three instruments. I'd love a bass flute and maybe a few other types of clarinet. 

Since I own all of the Berlin Woodwinds libraries, I'm considering making a video review of the entire collection. I used the Eb clarinet and the Contrabassoon in recent videos on my youtube channel, if you're curious.


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## Casiquire (Jun 21, 2021)

I'm not sure why we'd expect them to have their massive libraries ready within six months. I definitely figured that would be a huge long term project


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## Casiquire (Jun 21, 2021)

A.Heppelmann said:


> To be honest, I'm not as impressed with the additional woodwinds expansion. I've never really used the legacy woodwinds patches from Berlin Woodwinds, but I'd imagine that they're similar to the current version of the additional woodwinds. Dynamics are fine (I think p, mf, and ff), but there really should be at least one more layer in my opinion. My main problems with the library are the mic options (which you suggested might be updated!), and that they only included three instruments. I'd love a bass flute and maybe a few other types of clarinet.
> 
> Since I own all of the Berlin Woodwinds libraries, I'm considering making a video review of the entire collection. I used the Eb clarinet and the Contrabassoon in recent videos on my youtube channel, if you're curious.


Correct, the additional winds are legacy style and i think the expectation is that they eventually will get revived as well. I'm holding off on those too for the same reason.


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## Artemi (Jun 21, 2021)

A.Heppelmann said:


> To be honest, I'm not as impressed with the additional woodwinds expansion. I've never really used the legacy woodwinds patches from Berlin Woodwinds, but I'd imagine that they're similar to the current version of the additional woodwinds. Dynamics are fine (I think p, mf, and ff), but there really should be at least one more layer in my opinion. My main problems with the library are the mic options (which you suggested might be updated!), and that they only included three instruments. I'd love a bass flute and maybe a few other types of clarinet.
> 
> Since I own all of the Berlin Woodwinds libraries, I'm considering making a video review of the entire collection. I used the Eb clarinet and the Contrabassoon in recent videos on my youtube channel, if you're curious.


oh, I think I see them
which mics do you use in the main BWW library for your examples?


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## A.Heppelmann (Jun 21, 2021)

Artemi said:


> oh, I think I see them
> so, all the WW examples are from BWW right?


I switch between BWW (and its expansions) and the two soloist libraries from OT. The soloist libraries are a lot more expressive, but lacking in articulations.


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## Artemi (Jun 21, 2021)

A.Heppelmann said:


> I switch between BWW (and its expansions) and the two soloist libraries from OT. The soloist libraries are a lot more expressive, but lacking in articulations.


Well it would be nice to see a review of BWW, since I still can't decide which WW library to choose


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## VSriHarsha (Jun 21, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I do find the overall sounds are more pronounced and detailed than it was in kontakt, Berlin strings special bows for example. Maybe OT remastered the samples. Now I have high expectations of Berlin Strings in SINE. And I’m using SINE every single day for scoring, it’s very stable and there’s no single crash whatsoever.


Are you on Mac?


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## holywilly (Jun 21, 2021)

VSriHarsha said:


> Are you on Mac?


Yes.


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## Futchibon (Jun 21, 2021)

LOVING the SINE player! And the 'ala carte' individual instruments is a fantastic idea. Can't wait for MA3 & 4 to become SINE-friendly!


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## VSriHarsha (Jun 23, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Yes.


Ok thanks. Didn’t you have problem with resizing the interface? I had that problem. Did they work on it? Also, I found out midi not responding, well, I was able to see the keys being pressed but I couldn’t hear the sound. I think they solved this?


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## muziksculp (Jul 26, 2021)

August is around the corner. 

Will we see any of these OT libraries : Berlin Strings, Woodwinds, Brass, Perc. ...etc. Released in SINE format during August ? 

What about the SINE update ? 

I really don't understand what's happening at OT with regards to all these libraries, and their total silence, and zero feedback about this is not comforting.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 26, 2021)

They’re probably busy refining their compression algorithm 😂


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## Flyo (Jul 26, 2021)

I’m still waiting to an update for AAX compatibility, for almost a year since they said it will be ready soon…. I have libraries on Sine and I cannot use it with my Daw yet! And of course I have passed all their new releases because of this.


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## Kevperry777 (Jul 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> August is around the corner.
> 
> Will we see any of these OT libraries : Berlin Strings, Woodwinds, Brass, Perc. ...etc. Released in SINE format during August ?
> 
> ...


I don't either. 8 months since release....and a highlighted feature is still broken. I would like to see way better software development and bug squashing before I make another big purchase with OT.


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## jonathanwright (Jul 26, 2021)

I could be wrong, but it doesn’t look like they’ve converted any of their libraries that require tempo syncing yet have they?

Like MA3, which relies heavily on it.

They may be working on that functionality before release.


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## muziksculp (Jul 26, 2021)

Kevperry777 said:


> I don't either. 8 months since release....and a highlighted feature is still broken. I would like to see way better software development and bug squashing before I make another big purchase with OT.


Hopefully that will happen. 

It is very concerning to me, I have invested in most of their Berlin Series libraries, (Kontakt). Hoping that they will be ported into SINE when SINE was first announced, and released in Nov. 2019. 

These are libraries they already have recorded, so they are most likely not re-recording them again in Teledex, to port them into SINE. What exactly is happening at OT ? Why are they not being forthcoming and honestly giving us some direct feedback. I'm losing faith in their company, and will not be purchasing any new OT libraries until they have their entire Berlin line in SINE, and fix the SINE issues. 

Sorry for venting out, but that's the least I can do, given it's almost August 2021, so I think I have been patient enough, and as one of OT's customer, I think I deserve some explanation to what's going on.


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## imusic (Jul 27, 2021)

my expectation for the new "Sine" releases is more towards end of the year 2021 ...
I have most of their "Kontakt" titles and it works great ...
(so, no worries for me ...)


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## Casiquire (Jul 27, 2021)

imusic said:


> my expectation for the new "Sine" releases is more towards end of the year 2021 ...
> I have most of their "Kontakt" titles and it works great ...
> (so, no worries for me ...)


Sort of, but there are issues, like how not all of the Expanded sections are consistent with the main library microphone positions. I expect that to get fixed when they go to SINE and it's sort of a part of why i haven't bought them yet


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## muziksculp (Jul 27, 2021)

imusic said:


> my expectation for the new "Sine" releases is more towards end of the year 2021 ...
> I have most of their "Kontakt" titles and it works great ...
> (so, no worries for me ...)


Hopefully not the case.


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## andyhy (Jul 27, 2021)

I do feel that those of us who invested in the Berlin Series following that exciting Live Premiere Event on December 17 2020 deserve at least a progress report from OT regarding the transfer of these libraries to the Sine Player. For this reason I've held back from buying any new OT products because I want to see those promises delivered first. I appreciate that the pandemic may have contributed to the delay however I would still like an update. I do hope that someone from OT reads this posting because surely any negative impact on the take up of new OT releases ought be of major concern them.


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## muziksculp (Jul 27, 2021)

It would be helpful if other OT Berlin series library owners join in, by not purchasing any new OT Library release/s until they get their Berlin libraries ported to SINE, or at lease communicate with us on this forum, and give us some direct feedback on the cause of the delay, and what we should expect. But to leave this matter ignored, even though I have brought it up several times on this, and other threads is imho. not acceptable, and not a professional attitude form a respected company like OT.

I wish OT would learn a few lessons from another company (VSL), on how to be responsive, and engaged with their customers.


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## andyhy (Jul 27, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> It would be helpful if other OT Berlin series library owners join in, by not purchasing any new OT Library release/s until they get their Berlin libraries ported to SINE, or at lease communicate with us on this forum, and give us some direct feedback on the cause of the delay, and what we should expect. But to leave this matter ignored, even though I have brought it up several times on this, and other threads is imho. not acceptable, and not a professional attitude form a respected company like OT.
> 
> I wish OT would learn a few lessons from another company (VSL), on how to be responsive, and engaged with their customers.


Well said


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## ism (Jul 27, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> It would be helpful if other OT Berlin series library owners join in, by not purchasing any new OT Library release/s until they get their Berlin libraries ported to SINE,


Not sure I see an issue. I've picked up the Wind soloists, Tallinn, Special bows, First chairs, Tallinn - all on historically good sales, an all of which are far more important to what I write that the main libraries. And I'm hoping for Time Micro, and maybe Ark 4 next. 


Sine bug fixes would be nice, as they (very) mildly annoying, and maybe also main libraries port would be nice too. But for one thing, there could very well be very good (and/or necessary) technical (and/or competitive) reasons for the way OT is proceeding, and for another, the way they have been proceeding and prioritizing has suited me, personally, extremely well. I appreciate that other people might prefer other prioritizations, but there's nothing inherently wrong with what we're seeing.


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## muziksculp (Jul 27, 2021)

ism said:


> Not sure I see an issue. I've picked up the Wind soloists, Tallinn, Special bows, First chairs, Tallinn - all on historically good sales, an all of which are far more important to what I write that the main libraries. And I'm hoping for Time Micro, and maybe Ark 4 next.
> 
> 
> Sine bug fixes would be nice, as they (very) mildly annoying, and maybe also main libraries port would be nice too. But for one thing, there could very well be very good (and/or necessary) technical (and/or competitive) reasons for the way OT is proceeding, and for another, the way they have been proceeding and prioritizing has suited me, personally, extremely well. I appreciate that other people might prefer other prioritizations, but there's nothing inherently wrong with what we're seeing.


When a company like OT ignores requests by their customers to provide some feedback, or status update, and they do nothing about it (Since Jan. 2020), totally ignoring it as if it really doesn't matter, that's what I call bad business practice. If that suits you, then great for you. I totally disagree.


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## Flyo (Jul 27, 2021)

As a consumer of OT Libs I think they need to come up and clarifying the updates situation and bring us some schedule, im waiting AAX Comp, since the beginning and also they said that they will work on this months ago, and still nothing about it…. Bring us some date in order to put our work on some time frame with their great top library’s


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## jbuhler (Jul 27, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> When a company like OT ignores requests by their customers to provide some feedback, or status update, and they do nothing about it (Since Jan. 2020), totally ignoring it as if it really doesn't matter, that's what I call bad business practice. If that suits you, then great for you. I totally disagree.


Historically this is pretty typical of OT, tbh. Since Sine they’ve been a bit more responsive with updates, but updates before Sine were infrequent. They are also not historically that responsive to queries on the forum aside from around the times they release libraries. In my experience they are sometimes more forthcoming through support queries, but they aren’t likely to tell you much about schedule and release.


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## muziksculp (Jul 27, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Historically this is pretty typical of OT, tbh. Since Sine they’ve been a bit more responsive with updates, but updates before Sine were infrequent. They are also not historically that responsive to queries on the forum aside from around the times they release libraries. In my experience they are sometimes more forthcoming through support queries, but they aren’t likely to tell you much about schedule and release.


True, but I'm also free to stop buying any of their upcoming libraries as a personal response to their current MO, until their Berlin Libraries are released in SINE. At least it makes me feel I can do something about it.


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## Trash Panda (Jul 27, 2021)

I look forward to @muziksculp finally finding a Strings library that Infinitely satisfies his desires out of a strings library. I’d Venture a guess it may come out this year or next.


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## muziksculp (Jul 27, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> I look forward to @muziksculp finally finding a Strings library that Infinitely satisfies his desires out of a strings library. I’d Venture a guess it may come out this year or next.


Unfortunately @Trash Panda has nothing more productive to say on this thread. 

Thanks anyways.


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## muziksculp (Jul 27, 2021)

@Trash Panda,

I didn't mean to make you feel sad/upset in any way with my reply above. 

I just thought you could have chimed in on the topic at hand, instead of diverting attention to my string library addiction problem  I will most likely never find the string library of my dreams. So, I will keep you all entertained with my quest. 

Now back to topic.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jul 27, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> It would be helpful if other OT Berlin series library owners join in, by not purchasing any new OT Library release/s until they get their Berlin libraries ported to SINE,


That's a no from me dawg. 

I want to see things ported but also want to see the engine improved closer to capsules functionality as well. 

Plus I'm an addict


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## muziksculp (Jul 27, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I want to see things ported but also want to see the engine improved closer to capsules functionality as well.


Cool, and when do you think that will happen ? 2025 or a bit later ?


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## ProfoundSilence (Jul 27, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Cool, and when do you think that will happen ? 2025 or a bit later ?


Samples will still sound good


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## ProfoundSilence (Jul 27, 2021)

I'm still planning on picking up agitato grandioso after a billion years, so I think there's hope that it'll still be great then


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## novaburst (Jul 27, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> would be helpful if other OT Berlin series library owners join in, by not purchasing any new OT Library release/s until they get their Berlin libraries ported to SINE,


Unfulfilled promises or delayed promises not sure if not purchasing OT products is helping either, the consensus should be the attitude we want all to do well and wish all good will weather a promise is broken or not,

OT do have some of the best products on the market so to purchase anything from them would benefit anyone who uses samples,

Also the complexity of delay is to deep to start judging. Using OT library's in kontakt or Sine are still getting great results, so if and when any promise is fulfilled it's only a plus and stops no one from going forward,


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## holywilly (Jul 27, 2021)

In Kontakt, Berlin Strings legato patch allows me to trigger different attack via velocity, which I'm a big fan of. I wonder how OT gonna incorporate this feature in SINE, where legatos with different attacks are separated with keyswitches.

I understand you can do poly keyswitch in SINE, but I wish to see one single keyswitch with different attack variation.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Jul 27, 2021)

holywilly said:


> In Kontakt, Berlin Strings legato patch allows me to trigger different attack via velocity, which I'm a big fan of. I wonder how OT gonna incorporate this feature in SINE, where legatos with different attacks are separated with keyswitches.
> 
> I understand you can do poly keyswitch in SINE, but I wish to see one single keyswitch with different attack variation.


This is THE missing feature that will keep me from upgrading my Berlin libs to SINE at the moment. This and a legato switch option (for instance Slurred / Retongued).

I'm sure they are working on it!


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## Toecutter (Jul 27, 2021)

holywilly said:


> In Kontakt, Berlin Strings legato patch allows me to trigger different attack via velocity, which I'm a big fan of. I wonder how OT gonna incorporate this feature in SINE, where legatos with different attacks are separated with keyswitches.
> 
> I understand you can do poly keyswitch in SINE, but I wish to see one single keyswitch with different attack variation.





Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> This is THE missing feature that will keep me from upgrading my Berlin libs to SINE at the moment. This and a legato switch option (for instance Slurred / Retongued).
> 
> I'm sure they are working on it!


Yep no point in porting sutff to SINE in its current state. Still waiting for fixes... say what you want about the Spitfire player but that one works flawlessly, only missing multi timbral support.


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## andyhy (Jul 27, 2021)

Regardless of other comments in this thread I'd still like to hear from OT. I don't have the ram to make the best use of the Kontakt version of BWW and BB so the promised porting to Sine is very important to me. If it's going to be a long delay frankly I think OT should offer me and others in the same boat a refund. I am currently taking the matter up with OT.


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## novaburst (Jul 28, 2021)

I was wondering when this kontakt to Sine library move happens will we have the choice to still use the same library in kontakt even those it's in Sine 

I know Metropolis Ark is in Sine can it still be used in kontakt because that would give you the best of both worlds the only down side I guess is SSD space


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## ProfoundSilence (Jul 28, 2021)

novaburst said:


> I was wondering when this kontakt to Sine library move happens will we have the choice to still use the same library in kontakt even those it's in Sine
> 
> I know Metropolis Ark is in Sine can it still be used in kontakt because that would give you the best of both worlds the only down side I guess is SSD space


If you own both versions yes. If you buy it on sine when it comes out there is a Kontakt crossgrade iirc


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## novaburst (Jul 28, 2021)

I think that very beneficial as I think there maybe some things in kontakt like @holywilly was explaining that may not be in the Sine player, so it can give a broader range of options,


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## jbuhler (Jul 28, 2021)

holywilly said:


> In Kontakt, Berlin Strings legato patch allows me to trigger different attack via velocity, which I'm a big fan of. I wonder how OT gonna incorporate this feature in SINE, where legatos with different attacks are separated with keyswitches.


Sine has this too on some of the libraries, where the legato will change automatically depending on speed or velocity. But I don't think the precise triggering conditions are documented anywhere.


----------



## Soundbed (Jul 28, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> the precise triggering conditions


Isn’t it a slider? You choose which velocity will trigger what by selecting the attack types and sliding the slider.


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## holywilly (Jul 28, 2021)

Slider (CC4 as default) change the vibrato types, velocity trigger different legato transitions (portamento or playable run). None of them can trigger different types of attack, like soft, immediate and accent. The only way to achieve that is to use polyphonic keyswitch, which is quite buggy at the moment.


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## Soundbed (Jul 28, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Slider (CC4 as default) change the vibrato types, velocity trigger different legato transitions (portamento or playable run). None of them can trigger different types of attack, like soft, immediate and accent. The only way to achieve that is to use polyphonic keyswitch, which is quite buggy at the moment.


??
Ok. I don’t know how polyphonic keyswitch is involved or why it’s buggy. I’m not talking about a CC controller “switch”. I’m talking about a slider that gets set once and then responds to note on velocities.


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## holywilly (Jul 28, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> ??
> Ok. I don’t know how polyphonic keyswitch is involved or why it’s buggy. I’m not talking about a CC controller “switch”. I’m talking about a slider that gets set once and then responds to note on velocities.


Ahhh, I got it, Tableau chamber strings does that.

I’ve tried polyphonic keyswitch with Berlin Symphonic Strings, using velocity to trigger different legato types, some intervals have very awkward sounding transition. Just my experience.


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## jbuhler (Jul 28, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> True, but I'm also free to stop buying any of their upcoming libraries as a personal response to their current MO, until their Berlin Libraries are released in SINE. At least it makes me feel I can do something about it.


Yes, you are totally free to do what you want. I'm just saying the recent practice is consistent with OT's historic practice, so it's unlikely to change much. If that's not something you want to deal with, it's completely understandable if you want to vote with your feet.


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## Soundbed (Jul 28, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Tableau chamber strings does that.


Yes in Tableau it supposedly sets the volume of the soft legato versus regular legato. Although trying it again today they sound pretty similar.

I guess it doesn't set the velocity crossover anyway. The slider sets the volume (output sound level) of the chosen Legato type.

In Berlin Strings First Chairs you can pick Slurred or Portamento.



jbuhler said:


> I don't think the precise triggering conditions are documented anywhere.


I guess you're right.

I was thinking the slider selected the velocity crossover.

For Berlin First Chairs it is changing at velocity 110.

For Tableau Violins I, there's such a subtle difference I'm not sure if the crossover is also 110 or not. I'm not even sure if I'm hearing a difference.


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## bvaughn0402 (Jul 28, 2021)

This might be a dumb question ... but have any of us emailed them to ask for an update on the release of these libraries?


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## muziksculp (Jul 28, 2021)

bvaughn0402 said:


> This might be a dumb question ... but have any of us emailed them to ask for an update on the release of these libraries?


I did.


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## Casiquire (Jul 28, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Yes in Tableau it supposedly sets the volume of the soft legato versus regular legato. Although trying it again today they sound pretty similar.
> 
> I guess it doesn't set the velocity crossover anyway. The slider sets the volume (output sound level) of the chosen Legato type.
> 
> ...


Most things in SINE aren't documented anywhere. There are plenty of functions i want to know about but there's no manual.


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## Getsumen (Jul 28, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Most things in SINE aren't documented anywhere. There are plenty of functions i want to know about but there's no manual.


Have you looked at their help docs?





General Topics - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


Common questions and support documentation




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com





*I personally haven't since I barely use half the features so I'm not sure if there are details in there not present.


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## Casiquire (Jul 28, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Have you looked at their help docs?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That does seem helpful! I'll bookmark it for next time I'm in SINE scratching my head. Thanks


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 28, 2021)

I wonder how the delay is impacting their sales. I was contemplating getting some libraries from them...but I'm hesitant to do it if they are going to fix things when converting to SINE. But then I'm hesitant to wait for SINE as well because for the ones they already ported, like soloists, they didn't port over all of the functionality or options from Kontakt (for example, Kontakt has the Teldex IR - not available in SINE, they don't even give you the IR file so you can use in your own reverb). So SINE conversions may include some fixes or improvements, but may also be only a subset of the Kontakt functionality. That coupled with the inability to fix issues and a general lack of innovation in their own player makes me skeptical that they have their sh*t together.


----------



## andyhy (Jul 28, 2021)

bvaughn0402 said:


> This might be a dumb question ... but have any of us emailed them to ask for an update on the release of these libraries?


I contacted customer support yesterday and received a reply soon after. They offered to troubleshoot my ram concerns with BB and BWW in Kontakt. They confirmed they are working on the SINE versions of their current Kontakt collections, including Strings and Woodwinds and assured me that this is not something that has been delayed or put on hold. Apparently for legal reasons OT cannot state what progress has been made but assured me that work is being done on these collections for SINE.


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## Casiquire (Jul 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I wonder how the delay is impacting their sales. I was contemplating getting some libraries from them...but I'm hesitant to do it if they are going to fix things when converting to SINE. But then I'm hesitant to wait for SINE as well because for the ones they already ported, like soloists, they didn't port over all of the functionality or options from Kontakt (for example, Kontakt has the Teldex IR - not available in SINE, they don't even give you the IR file so you can use in your own reverb). So SINE conversions may include some fixes or improvements, but may also be only a subset of the Kontakt functionality. That coupled with the inability to fix issues and a general lack of innovation in their own player makes me skeptical that they have their sh*t together.


On that front though, previous users seem to have still been able to use the Kontakt libraries as well, so if anything you're in danger if you *wait* for it to come out on SINE, since you'd *lose* the Kontakt version


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 28, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> On that front though, previous users seem to have still been able to use the Kontakt libraries as well, so if anything you're in danger if you *wait* for it to come out on SINE, since you'd *lose* the Kontakt version


Yes, I could buy the Kontakt version now and have that as my "fallback", but then like I said, there is an expectation the SINE version will have improvements and hopefully on-going fixes (unlike the Kontakt versions). Unfortunately, it could also be missing functionality. So it is not an original+fixes, more of a "pick your poison" type of thing. Or keep both versions installed - so twice the space for the same library and then deal with figuring out which version to include in your templates. I'd rather wait and see, given other options available - OT has to win over customers and as much as I like BWW, I'm hesitant to buy anything more from them right now.


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## andyhy (Jul 28, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I wonder how long until they get these libraries released in SINE format.
> 
> The sooner than better.


OT customer support has advised me that the project to port the Berlin Series to SINE is not delayed or on hold. They're working on it but for what they refer to as legal reasons they are unable to provide a progress report. At least I received an answer.


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## muziksculp (Jul 29, 2021)

andyhy said:


> OT customer support has advised me that the project to port the Berlin Series to SINE is not delayed or on hold. They're working on it but for what they refer to as legal reasons they are unable to provide a progress report. At least I received an answer. For legal reasons my purchase of new OT releases IS on hold.


I still don't understand the super long time it's taking them to release even one of these older Berlin Libraries in SINE, are they planning to release all of them at the same time in SINE as a batch library release ? I doubt it, then why haven't they released their i.e. Berlin Woodwinds, or Brass, or Perc. which are maybe less demanding than Berlin Strings in SINE format ? 

What about the SINE issue with BSS ? What's the deal with that ? It's their own developed player, you would think they could have fixed it now almost 8 months with no fix. Sorry, but just saying we are working on it, and leave it there does not qualify as a good answer at this point. 

Yes, I emailed them as well, and their tech support just told me they are working on all these things, so... what does that mean, they could easily work on them for another year, or two. Meanwhile, still release other SINE libraries. By the way, the reply to my email was by a tech support rep. not by any of the big fish at OT, or their development team. So, I wouldn't put too much weight on these generic replies form Tech Support. I find them just a standard procedure to calm down customer like myself who are not happy with the status quo.


----------



## OrchestralTools (Jul 29, 2021)

Hey everyone,

We know people are waiting patiently for the main Berlin collections on SINE, AAX compatibility, and a Mic Merge fix for _Berlin Symphonic Strings_, so we wanted to give a quick update here.

As we said back in December, we are working to convert all of our Berlin Series over to SINE and we’ve made some good progress since then. Some collections of the Berlin Series are already released, such as the _Berlin Strings First Chairs, Berlin Strings Special Bows 1, Berlin Strings Special Bows 2, Berlin Woodwinds Soloists 1, _and_ Berlin Woodwinds Soloists 2_. Of course, we are working hard to convert the Berlin Series main collections over to SINE, but they're much bigger and take more time. However, they are coming and are planned for release this year, we’re aiming for the upcoming months. Simultaneously, we're also working on building some SINE features necessary for the Berlin main collections, so that you can get the most out of the Berlin main collections whilst ensuring the collections are easy to work with in SINE.

As our content conversion team works hard on the Berlin Series, our development team is in the process of finalizing and testing the new AAX compatibility. The Mic Merge fix works too and is in the middle of testing as we speak. As we don’t know exactly what could potentially come up during the beta and regression tests it’s hard to give an exact date, but we can tell you the release of the next SINE version is planned for the end of August/September (which will include the Mic Merge fix).

Making sure SINE is perfect for everyone is our top priority and driving force. That's why we invest so much in our development team here at OT. We want SINE to work perfectly for everyone, for all setups, for each different system. It’s important for us to mention here too, that the team that works on the content is separate from our SINE team. We know that from the outside, it might appear as if we are only working to release new collections, but behind the scenes, we are hard at work on SINE and the Berlin series too. Our team is very dedicated and they continuously work hard with you all in mind—we couldn’t ask for a better team.

We really do appreciate your patience and continued support—we know you are eagerly awaiting the Berlin Series on SINE and we are also eagerly awaiting the day we can release them on SINE too. We appreciate your understanding, and we hope this has cleared up a few questions some of you had.

Thanks for reading and if you have any other questions let us know.

Best,

OT


----------



## FKVStudio (Jul 29, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> We know people are waiting patiently for the main Berlin collections on SINE, AAX compatibility, and a Mic Merge fix for _Berlin Symphonic Strings_, so we wanted to give a quick update here.
> 
> ...


Yes, I have one. In November they were warned that there was a problem in the payment gateway for customers in the Canary Islands (Spain) forcing us to pay taxes that do not correspond to us to have their products. In November 2020! We are about to start August 2021.

I take it for granted that they have definitely ignored us but, oh optimist of me, I will ask again. Are they going to solve it at once or am I saying goodbye to OT?

All the best.


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## holywilly (Jul 29, 2021)

OT has became one of my favorite developers since the SINE released, mainly for the mic merging function, it’s truly a groundbreaking innovation and I bought every single SINE library to support OT. I truly believe that OT will make SINE a better sampler from time to time.

So far SINE is rock solid on my system and serve my template very well. I can’t wait to see the next update of SINE and more newly recorded SINE libraries in the near future.


----------



## Evans (Jul 29, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> The Mic Merge fix works too and is in the middle of testing as we speak. As we don’t know exactly what could potentially come up during the beta and regression tests it’s hard to give an exact date, but we can tell you the release of the next SINE version is planned for the end of August/September (which will include the Mic Merge fix).


Thank you for the detailed response, as well as your offer to address additional questions (per your post in the Commercial thread for the new, lovely saxophone release).

My question, then, is will you be removing Mic Merge as a promoted feature from the BSS product page until the defect is resolved? It has been promoted on that page since release, yet hasn't been an available feature since day one in my understanding.

I look forward to purchasing future OT products, but would like to know that I am purchasing what is advertised, given the return policy.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 29, 2021)

@OrchestralTools Will Soloists have the Teldex IR capability re-added to them for SINE? As dry libraries, that is important to blend them with Berlin Woodwinds.


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## muziksculp (Jul 29, 2021)

Hi @OrchestralTools ,

Thank You so much for providing us with direct feedback on this thread, and assuring us that all is well, and is not too far from happening. This is all I wanted to know. You guys are awesome, especially when you communicate with us.  

As a loyal customer of OT, and a fan of SINE, and your entire line of libraries, I wish you all a lot of success, and hope you overcome all the challenges, because you are a top of the line, first class developer, and it really matters to me that you do not appear to be anything but that. 

Communicating with your customers is extremely important, especially in a transitional phase of your product line, where there is a lot of uncertainty, and customers are waiting patiently for a long time. 

All The Best,
Muziksculp


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## Flyo (Jul 29, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> We know people are waiting patiently for the main Berlin collections on SINE, AAX compatibility, and a Mic Merge fix for _Berlin Symphonic Strings_, so we wanted to give a quick update here.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much. Looking forward to e Updates and new releases


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## Casiquire (Jul 29, 2021)

I've been pretty confused about the impatience to be honest. They didn't give us much of a projected timeline, and something like SEVEN conversions have already been released (the OT post didn't even mention the two ARKs that already received conversion). So why are we acting like this is taking "too long"? I'm going to bring this situation up in my upcoming book, titled "Why Devs Can't Win", in the chapter titled "I don't understand why they can't give us even just a general hint"


----------



## wlinart (Jul 29, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I've been pretty confused about the impatience to be honest. They didn't give us much of a projected timeline, and something like SEVEN conversions have already been released (the OT post didn't even mention the two ARKs that already received conversion). So why are we acting like this is taking "too long"? I'm going to bring this situation up in my upcoming book, titled "Why Devs Can't Win", in the chapter titled "I don't understand why they can't give us even just a general hint"


Even more than 7: special bows 1 and 2, first chairs, woodwinds soloist 1 and 2, ark 1 and 2, inspire 1 and 2, and everything from the organic samples label (which i think are also 4 conversions). Their projected timeline in the big announcement was before the end of 2021, which they seem to still go for.

And it's also not like you can't use the kontakt versions in the mean time, or that they sound bad, or...


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## Casiquire (Jul 29, 2021)

wlinart said:


> Even more than 7: special bows 1 and 2, first chairs, woodwinds soloist 1 and 2, ark 1 and 2, inspire 1 and 2, and everything from the organic samples label (which i think are also 4 conversions). Their projected timeline in the big announcement was before the end of 2021, which they seem to still go for.
> 
> And it's also not like you can't use the kontakt versions in the mean time, or that they sound bad, or...


You know, I can kind of see what they're doing here. They're converting the smaller, non-flagship, less complex and lower stakes ones first which to me indicates that not only will the big ones naturally take more time, but they'll be more well practiced with the process by the time they get to the flagship ones


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## wlinart (Jul 29, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> You know, I can kind of see what they're doing here. They're converting the smaller, non-flagship, less complex and lower stakes ones first which to me indicates that not only will the big ones naturally take more time, but they'll be more well practiced with the process by the time they get to the flagship ones


Yes, probably, and i'd rather have them take their time and deliver something real good.


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## muziksculp (Jul 29, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> we're also working on building some SINE features necessary for the Berlin main collections, so that you can get the most out of the Berlin main collections whilst ensuring the collections are easy to work with in SINE.


That's great news.  

Now that we are in the second half of 2021, I think we will begin seeing more or the core Berlin Series libraries released, my guess Sept., and forward.


----------



## Casiquire (Jul 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> That's great news.
> 
> Now that we are in the second half of 2021, I think we will begin seeing more or the core Berlin Series libraries released, my guess Sept., and forward.


Are we hoping that means different attack and sustain variations like people were talking about earlier in the thread? I don't want to speculate much but I'm curious what that means


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 29, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Are we hoping that means different attack and sustain variations like people were talking about earlier in the thread? I don't want to speculate much but I'm curious what that means


I'm not sure I understood what that meant (See quote below). i.e. When I use a Berlin Strings legato (Sustain with Legato enabled) in CAPSULE, velocity has no impact on the sound, or type of attack the legato gets. Only CC1 changes the dynamics of the legato.



holywilly said:


> In Kontakt, Berlin Strings legato patch allows me to trigger different attack via velocity, which I'm a big fan of. I wonder how OT gonna incorporate this feature in SINE, where legatos with different attacks are separated with keyswitches.
> 
> I understand you can do poly keyswitch in SINE, but I wish to see one single keyswitch with different attack variation.


Maybe @holywilly can clarify and explain a bit more about how this is possible, or which patch he is referring to. Where are these attack variations coming from ? another patch that's layered via CAPSULE, and crossfaded via VEL ? or ... ? Not sure. 

As far as what I expect to see in the next SINE update that will make working with their Berlin Libraries more productive, I have no clue what they have up their sleeves. What I know is they will fix the BSS Mic-Merge issue in the next SINE update.


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 29, 2021)

@Casiquire ,

OK, I was using the sustain patch, with Legato enabled via CAPSULE, I think @holywilly was referring to the actual Legato patch, which is in the single articulations folder, and yes, I confirm it does react to velocity, and also changes the type of legato based on the speed of performance. 

So, I'm guessing this is one of the functionalities they are trying to add to Berlin Strings in SINE format, and possibly some other improvements they can think of that might not even be possible in CAPSULE. 

This is the Celli Legato Patch.


----------



## Casiquire (Jul 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> @Casiquire ,
> 
> OK, I was using the sustain patch, with Legato enabled via CAPSULE, I think @holywilly was referring to the actual Legato patch, which is in the single articulations folder, and yes, I confirm it does react to velocity, and also changes the type of legato based on the speed of performance.
> 
> ...


Exactly that's what i was imagining they meant with that statement, but there's a danger in speculating too much!


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 29, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Exactly that's what i was imagining they meant with that statement, but there's a danger in speculating too much!


Yes, although speculating is kind of fun  

I would also guess that the next SINE update might not just fix the Mic-Merge feature, but also add some more performance based functionality to BSS. Again.. pure speculation.


----------



## jbuhler (Jul 29, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I've been pretty confused about the impatience to be honest. They didn't give us much of a projected timeline, and something like SEVEN conversions have already been released (the OT post didn't even mention the two ARKs that already received conversion). So why are we acting like this is taking "too long"? I'm going to bring this situation up in my upcoming book, titled "Why Devs Can't Win", in the chapter titled "I don't understand why they can't give us even just a general hint"


I’m more concerned that some of the bugs in BSS that were reported well before the first update still aren’t fixed more than I am about the slow pace in converting libraries, which I don’t think has been all that slow. Because historically OT did not do regular maintenance on their Capsule libraries. And it’s looking more and more like that might be the case for Sine libraries as well.


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 29, 2021)

Another very important detail, OT Berlin String samples have a lot of imperfections, i.e. noises that shouldn't be there, release samples that are too long, and many other issues, and possibly too much of a noise floor that needs a bit of cleaning up. I'm sure this is one of the areas that will make converting Berlin Strings to SINE a laborious task, dusting all these imperfections, they did the same to some of the samples in the Woodwind Expansions, which were noisy, and had extra unwanted sounds in the original version, but were nicely edited for the SINE version.


----------



## Casiquire (Jul 29, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I’m more concerned that some of the bugs in BSS that were reported well before the first update still aren’t fixed more than I am about the slow pace in converting libraries, which I don’t think has been all that slow. Because historically OT did not do regular maintenance on their Capsule libraries. And it’s looking more and more like that might be the case for Sine libraries as well.


That's definitely reasonable. I also wish they'd be a little better at updates but i knew what i was getting into and, at least in my workflow, don't encounter much in the way of issues anyway. Maybe not as flawless as VSL but pretty good


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## muziksculp (Jul 29, 2021)

I love the timbre, and character of Berlin Strings, I can just imagine how awesome this library will be once they get it all nicely detailed, and shiny, ready for the new SINE engine, and I'm not a fan of using CAPSULE. Plus the amount of RAM, and SSD space that the SINE version of Berlin Strings will save is another big advantage to factor in, compared to the Kontakt version.


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## muziksculp (Jul 29, 2021)

Berlin Strings, Berlin Symphonic Strings, Berlin First Chairs. All running in a new super charged SINE engine, and nicely shined, and optimized in terms of sample content. One can dream ? right


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## Casiquire (Jul 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Berlin Strings, Berlin Symphonic Strings, Berlin First Chairs. All running in a new super charged SINE engine, and nicely shined, and optimized in terms of sample content. One can dream ? right


How are the First Chairs in SINE?


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## muziksculp (Jul 29, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> How are the First Chairs in SINE?


They are Very Good ! 

imho. a notable improvement from the CAPSULE versions. sonically, in term of performance, and much less resource utilization.


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## andyhy (Jul 29, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> We know people are waiting patiently for the main Berlin collections on SINE, AAX compatibility, and a Mic Merge fix for _Berlin Symphonic Strings_, so we wanted to give a quick update here.
> 
> ...


I greatly appreciate OT's clarification on these issues. As and when the SINE versions of the Berlin Series are issued we all want them to be faultless. I only wanted an update and this satisfies me. Keep up the good work guys.


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 29, 2021)

OH.. just for fun, and maybe a bit of a programming tip.

Here is the Berlin First Chair Cello, playing a phrase using mainly short notes, Stacc and Spicc. but I used them in Poly-Mode, and crossfaded between these two short articulations to produce more variations in the short note lengths, automated via CC20. Check it out. Which adds much more realism to the performance.

View attachment OT 1st Chair Cello Stac-Spic Performance.mp4


----------



## Artemi (Jul 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> OH.. just for fun, and maybe a bit of a programming tip.
> 
> Here is the Berlin First Chair Cello, playing a phrase using mainly short notes, Stacc and Spicc. but I used them in Poly-Mode, and crossfaded between these two short articulations to produce more variations in the short note lengths, automated via CC20. Check it out. Which adds much more realism to the performance.


I like how that sounds,


----------



## Getsumen (Aug 26, 2021)

Seems that Berlin Strings and Berlin Woodwinds have been partially ported to SINE (Violins II and Oboe 1) at least.


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## Argy Ottas (Aug 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Yes, I consulted with my therapist about how to deal with the Sonokinetic Strings library release, and he recommended posting a new topic to deflect my attention to a new un-released library/s .
> 
> Hopefully it will ease the pain of waiting for the Sonokinetic Strings library
> 
> Hehe.. and I will be forwarding the Consultation bill to Sonokinetic.


Hi, my name is Argy Ottas and I am an "un-released Pacific" addict. I always wanted to seek help in a therapy group like that. Nice to meet you.


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## muziksculp (Aug 26, 2021)

Hehe.. I think we need a VI-C forum therapy group section


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## bvaughn0402 (Aug 26, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Seems that Berlin Strings and Berlin Woodwinds have been partially ported to SINE (Violins II and Oboe 1) at least.


Where did you see this?


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## Casiquire (Aug 26, 2021)

bvaughn0402 said:


> Where did you see this?


This thread has some more info!
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/orchestral-tools-miroire.113382/post-4899247


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## muziksculp (Sep 9, 2021)

Hopefully the SINE versions of the Berlin Series Libraries are just around the corner now. 

https://vi-control.net/community/th...ith-a-special-intro-offer.114122/post-4909741


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## muziksculp (Sep 9, 2021)

This is a helpful chart to get a an idea of the various library sizes, and some other details.

I wonder why the Berlin Brass library is the largest in the collection, I was expecting the Strings to be larger ?


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## Casiquire (Sep 9, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> This is a helpful chart to get a an idea of the various library sizes, and some other details.
> 
> I wonder why the Berlin Brass library is the largest in the collection, I was expecting the Strings to be larger ?


Good question, but I'm guessing it's because the brass are individually sampled players AND ensembles.

Oh, and apparently one or two more mics as well!


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## muziksculp (Sep 9, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Good question, but I'm guessing it's because the brass are individually sampled players AND ensembles.


Very possible.


----------



## muziksculp (Sep 17, 2021)




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## holywilly (Sep 18, 2021)

The reason why I bought Berlin Orchestra is to preview the Berlin series in SINE format. For the first time owning Berlin stuff, the playability is top notch. Well, I do own other Berlin stuffs like Character Strings and Solo Woodwinds, but never own any other Berlin flagships.


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## Oxytoxine (Sep 18, 2021)

holywilly said:


> The reason why I bought Berlin Orchestra is to preview the Berlin series in SINE format. For the first time owning Berlin stuff, the playability is top notch. Well, I do own other Berlin stuffs like Character Strings and Solo Woodwinds, but never own any other Berlin flagships.


Holywilly, with playability you mean how it reacts to keyboard playing? 

I ask because I've spent a fortune on the hunt for playable libraries. So I drifted from traditional sample libs more to Sample Modeling, Aaron Venture etc., but a) I am not 100% convinced tone-wise, and b) especially with strings I have not found my home yet.

To get a teaser for the Berlin libs I just got the Inspires. Like them tone-wise a lot, but playability is hard to judge because the patches have so many cut corners. Probably Berlin Orchestra would have been the better choice, but there seem to be no ensemble patches. 

Anyway, just wanted to give some background why I wanted to ask for your impressions with regard to playability - if you find the time I would be interested in your thoughts (what you exactly mean with playability), but of course understand that there is not always enough time to answer questions on forums  Thanks and happy composing!


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## holywilly (Sep 18, 2021)

Oxytoxine said:


> Holywilly, with playability you mean how it reacts to keyboard playing?
> 
> I ask because I've spent a fortune on the hunt for playable libraries. So I drifted from traditional sample libs more to Sample Modeling, Aaron Venture etc., but a) I am not 100% convinced tone-wise, and b) especially with strings I have not found my home yet.
> 
> ...


I benchmark playability of libraries with VSL, which has the best keyboard response, in my taste; legatos for example, no sluggish legato transitions. Berlin orchestra is pretty good with that, agile legatos and consistent of shorts and other articulations, blend with VSL Synchron instruments seamlessly. 

Every library that can blend with VSL is not a regret purchase for me.


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 18, 2021)

Oxytoxine said:


> Holywilly, with playability you mean how it reacts to keyboard playing?
> 
> I ask because I've spent a fortune on the hunt for playable libraries. So I drifted from traditional sample libs more to Sample Modeling, Aaron Venture etc., but a) I am not 100% convinced tone-wise, and b) especially with strings I have not found my home yet.


In terms of just being able to play a sustained string section, I find Afflatus to be the most capable. The polylegato is programmed very well to ensure smoothness between chords so long as you are playing effective string voicings. I use Afflatus a lot for this kind of sketching and/or noodling around.


----------



## muziksculp (Sep 18, 2021)

Playing Afflatus Strings Poly-legato adds a big smile to my face every time I play them, no other Strings library has done it as good as Afflatus. I'm surprised they don't get more mention on the forum.


----------



## RonV (Sep 18, 2021)

The Afflatus Minimalist Strings Legato patch (flautando chamber ensemble) is a beautiful sounding patch to sketch with, and can often sound good enough to leave in a final track.


----------



## Oxytoxine (Sep 18, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I benchmark playability of libraries with VSL, which has the best keyboard response, in my taste; legatos for example, no sluggish legato transitions. Berlin orchestra is pretty good with that, agile legatos and consistent of shorts and other articulations, blend with VSL Synchron instruments seamlessly.
> 
> Every library that can blend with VSL is not a regret purchase for me.


Thanks! That's good to hear. I only have Elite from VSL, but also find that it reacts very precisely and nicely to keyboard input - so if Berlin is comparable, I would be more than happy.


----------



## Oxytoxine (Sep 18, 2021)

Thank you guys for the recommendations of Afflatus with regard to keyboard playing! 

Yes, I love it for this, too! 

Only problem is that I learnt from you guys here on VI-control that playing ensemble patches in such a way seems to be a no go for real composers 

I love playing the polylegato patches, also the autodivisi is super nice (if only more patches would have these possibilities), pure joy! But as soon as I try to take it a step further and start to break it down into sections and more intricate lines using various articulations, I hit the wall very fast with Afflatus - because there are only three or so of the most basic articulations. I wonder how you guys that do orchestral works with Afflatus are dealing with the lack of even basic articulations.

Afflatus was the first „big“ string lib I got a bit more than a year ago when I first started to dabble with orchestral stuff. It was so expensive I felt bad for a few days - and not that much later I find more string libs on my HD than strings in the drawbar of my girlfriend 😅

But seriously: I originally just wanted to learn how to write some nice string beds for my trivial „pop“, rock and EDM productions, and this escalated fast. 

I can remember when I first heard some Afflatus demos, I was absolutely blown away (and still am). 

But after learning so much (and this is not even the tip of the iceberg it seems - I was not aware that so many of you really studied orchestration, composing, mixing etc. in a professional manner) I would be ashamed to use Afflatus like that in a track of mine because of the fear that someone like you guys with so much experience in „real“ orchestration / composition would immediately label it as trash. When I show such tracks to producers / collaborators / people in my real life, they are mightily impressed by the strings and think I know what I am doing, although it was mostly Afflatus on its own 😅 


This is really something that hinders my musical development since hanging around here too much (comparing my first noob attempts to the masters and the tendency to brush away all of my stuff as mediocre because it was not written according to the high standards of musical theory / orchestration).

Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread - these thoughts just crossed my mind when you mentioned Afflatus - back to discussing Berlin Orchestra!


----------



## benwiggy (Sep 18, 2021)

Evans said:


> though the polymap and mic merge features are fantastic


Can anyone quickly explain what the Poly mode is in SINE Player? I haven't quite worked it out from the (limited) documentation.
Is it just an alternative method of switching between patches? I'm ideally looking for a way to use two samples at the same time.


----------



## Chungus (Sep 18, 2021)

You know, since OT has gotten the brass players back in for the additional layer on BB, I hope they recorded brass FX while they were at it, to match the strings and WW libraries. Sure, the horn FX looks cool, but there's a hole in the pallette for the rest of the section.

Also, might be less realistic of a wish, but additional content for the WWs to make it more consistent with itself would be nice.


----------



## FrozenIcicle (Sep 18, 2021)

Chungus said:


> You know, since OT has gotten the brass players back in for the additional layer on BB, I hope they recorded brass FX while they were at it, to match the strings and WW libraries. Sure, the horn FX looks cool, but there's a hole in the pallette for the rest of the section.
> 
> Also, might be less realistic of a wish, but additional content for the WWs to make it more consistent with itself would be nice.


Wish they hurry up with putting it on sine. I wonder if it would reduce ram required


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 18, 2021)

I keep telling myself that if they put it on SINE I'll buy the strings one section at a time. But then i look at their pricing structure and remember that they'll probably be three hundred dollars a section, and if they have the same BF deal this year as last, the whole library will be like 450... Yeah i don't really think individual OT instruments are worth it 🤷


----------



## Zanshin (Sep 18, 2021)

The upgrade value from individual instruments to full is like 70% too, so you'd end up paying like 130% of the full cost.


----------



## borisb2 (Sep 18, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I keep telling myself that if they put it on SINE I'll buy the strings one section at a time. But then i look at their pricing structure and remember that they'll probably be three hundred dollars a section, and if they have the same BF deal this year as last, the whole library will be like 450... Yeah i don't really think individual OT instruments are worth it 🤷


A little hint - as I know you’re using MSS as well .. after the 1.2 update of MSS I haven’t used BS too much anymore.. MSS has become such a reliable library now for me from sweeping legatos, agressive shorts, runs.. you name it 😋

I am looking forward though to Berlin Brass (the only B-library I didn't buy during their last sale)


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 18, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> A little hint - as I know you’re using MSS as well .. after the 1.2 update of MSS I haven’t used BS too much anymore.. MSS has become such a reliable library now for me from sweeping legatos, agressive shorts, runs.. you name it 😋
> 
> I am looking forward though to Berlin Brass (the only B-library I didn't buy during their last sale)


Good to know! Yeah I'm pretty crazy about MSS and am not really short on strings. My main thought is to complete the series and get that naturally matched room sound from the strings. I'm glad to hear your thoughts on it 

As far as the brass, i really like it a lot. It sounds more natural than hyped and epic but that's what i like. They just sound authentic and warm. I don't even feel like i need an extra layer of loud but I'm sure I'll change my mind when i get to play it for myself


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 19, 2021)

Oxytoxine said:


> But as soon as I try to take it a step further and start to break it down into sections and more intricate lines using various articulations, I hit the wall very fast with Afflatus - because there are only three or so of the most basic articulations. I wonder how you guys that do orchestral works with Afflatus are dealing with the lack of even basic articulations.


Well, sometimes you don’t need to break it down any further. If it sounds how you want in ensemble form there’s no reason to rescore. 

Then, too, you might use something like Afflatus for the initial sketch and then transfer it to a library or set of libraries that can better execute the details you want. So I might start with an overlay of a library with string parts (violin 1, vln2, vla, etc, or Afflatus’s sections) on the Afflatus ensemble sketch and that may or may not lead to replacement, depending on how suitable the Afflatus sketch is. Of course if I’m sketching something that Afflatus is not suitable for then I’d use something else for sketching, and the SCS ensemble patch is another of my sketching favorites as is SF’s cheap Intimate Strings.


----------



## dcoscina (Sep 19, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I benchmark playability of libraries with VSL, which has the best keyboard response, in my taste; legatos for example, no sluggish legato transitions. Berlin orchestra is pretty good with that, agile legatos and consistent of shorts and other articulations, blend with VSL Synchron instruments seamlessly.
> 
> Every library that can blend with VSL is not a regret purchase for me.


I will definitely agree with this insofar as the Silent Stage fare. With the Synchron stuff, I'm finding a lack of slurring in the legatos by comparison. I wish there was a way of increasing that volume like you can achieve in SINE.


----------



## borisb2 (Sep 19, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Good to know! Yeah I'm pretty crazy about MSS and am not really short on strings. My main thought is to complete the series and get that naturally matched room sound from the strings. I'm glad to hear your thoughts on it


of course its a good idea to have a complete orchestra available recorded in one room .. but that doesnt mean it's not possible to achieve a coherent sound from various libraries as well - depends on the musical context of course

Personally I find the release tails in BS a bit unrealistic loud. It can build up to a hally sound in context. I wish one could set their volume like in Play/Opus


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 19, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> of course its a good idea to have a complete orchestra available recorded in one room .. but that doesnt mean it's not possible to achieve a coherent sound from various libraries as well - depends on the musical context of course
> 
> Personally I find the release tails in BS a bit unrealistic loud. It can build up to a hally sound in context. I wish one could set their volume like in Play/Opus


I totally agree that it's not necessary for a cohesive sound. But i can see situations where it would be really useful to at least layer them in. I can't see them ever overtaking MSS as my primary strings hence why i am not likely to pick them up at full price.

Does SINE allow adjusting release tails? That would help


----------



## muziksculp (Sep 22, 2021)




----------



## muziksculp (Sep 29, 2021)

Will it be October ? 

It's just around the corner


----------



## Nimrod7 (Sep 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Will it be October ?
> 
> It's just around the corner


This is the only library I am eagerly waiting right now.
Well, and whatever VSL Synchron comes next,
And of course Infinite Strings,
Well, ok and Tokyo Scoring Strings.


----------



## muziksculp (Sep 29, 2021)

Now that they have shown us their Berlin Orchestra Created With Berklee, it's time they show us Berlin Orchestra SINE, made for those who have been waiting for more than 9 months. 

It's about time to give birth to Berlin Orchestra SINE. 

Hopefully the release will be next month.


----------



## bill5 (Sep 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I wonder how long until they get these libraries released in SINE format.
> 
> The sooner than better.


You're one sick puppy.


----------



## Baronvonheadless (Sep 29, 2021)

I’m looking forward to the timpani being released in sine so I can get just the baroque mallets patch that I will assume will sound very nice with miroire? So far I prefer how my bbc pro dryer timpani sounds with mirroire than abbey Road but I feel like neither of them really match/have the right power for that baroque style. Just seems off. So I’d assume OT’s timpani would be a better fit. I can’t find any demo of just the baroque mallet patch tho. Curious to hear it


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 29, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> I’m looking forward to the timpani being released in sine so I can get just the baroque mallets patch that I will assume will sound very nice with miroire? So far I prefer how my bbc pro dryer timpani sounds with mirroire than abbey Road but I feel like neither of them really match/have the right power for that baroque style. Just seems off. So I’d assume OT’s timpani would be a better fit. I can’t find any demo of just the baroque mallet patch tho. Curious to hear it


I do really like the full Timpani library though, and it's not hideously overpriced. Actually it's quite reasonable, especially for OT who is often a little overpriced. Very comprehensive and a very versatile sound


----------



## Baronvonheadless (Sep 29, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I do really like the full Timpani library though, and it's not hideously overpriced. Actually it's quite reasonable, especially for OT who is often a little overpriced. Very comprehensive and a very versatile sound


Do you own it? Curious if you also have bbc pro or aroof? And could compare to their timpanis?


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 29, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> Do you own it? Curious if you also have bbc pro or aroof? And could compare to their timpanis?


I do not, unfortunately! However I can say they're far more comprehensive than either


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Sep 30, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I do not, unfortunately! However I can say they're far more comprehensive than either


I do have all 3, there's really no comparison when it comes to sampling depth.


----------



## dhmusic (Sep 30, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> Do you own it? Curious if you also have bbc pro or aroof? And could compare to their timpanis?


I don't own either of those spitfire ones. But it's stupidly good. To call it opulent would be a massive understatement.

tbh I imagine most people would underestimate it because of how overwhelming it can be on first encounter. Like their brain is protecting them from the mindfuck of a template they'll be helplessly putting together to really get the most out of the library.

Basically they made a Timpani for C'thulhu. 10/10 I love it.


----------



## Baronvonheadless (Sep 30, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I do really like the full Timpani library though, and it's not hideously overpriced. Actually it's quite reasonable, especially for OT who is often a little overpriced. Very comprehensive and a very versatile sound


Yeah it’s something I was considering but am sadly at the end of my funds. Further down the line when I can nestle into steady work I’ll def pick it up. Just have to make due with what I’ve got for now (which is quite a bit) haha.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 30, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> Yeah it’s something I was considering but am sadly at the end of my funds. Further down the line when I can nestle into steady work I’ll def pick it up. Just have to make due with what I’ve got for now (which is quite a bit) haha.


And i doubt that detail of timpani choice is going to hold you back any 😊


----------



## muziksculp (Oct 2, 2021)

Very Soon ? Hmmm.



OK I'm .....


----------



## holywilly (Oct 2, 2021)

My observation on the spot mics from Special Bows SINE version is much louder than the kontakt version, which I like a lot, I wish the upcoming Berlin series will have similar fashion. 

My bet for the first Berlin SINE release is 1 weeks from now.


----------



## Rudianos (Oct 3, 2021)

Looking forward! I am willing to buy it up for the right price. Wont forget that juicy 50% off last year I was not ready for. Have the Timpani - its grand. With SINE I want to see some improvements. But cash is ready! Need to finish my Sym Strings too so hopefully a 2nd chance Intro Price


----------



## muziksculp (Oct 11, 2021)

Hello Orchestral Tools, 

Still .....


----------



## muziksculp (Oct 11, 2021)

WOW !

A new SINE Player (Ver 1.06) is released, what a timing 

https://www.orchestraltools.com/store/get-sine


----------



## wlinart (Oct 11, 2021)

Probably around black friday, with a big promotion like last year


----------



## muziksculp (Oct 11, 2021)

wlinart said:


> Probably around black friday, with a big promotion like last year


But I want it sooner


----------



## muziksculp (Oct 11, 2021)

SINE​What's new?​Version: v1.0.6​*Changes in this version:*


New features:

AAX Support! SINE Player is now available as an AAX plugin for Pro Tools.
Mic Merge improvements: Mic Merge has been optimized with better support for different merge configurations and will now use all available processing power of your machine. We strongly recommend to only use Mic Merge in standalone mode or while playback is stopped.
New Store/My Licenses framework: The Store and My Licenses sections now use a new framework, using your OS's native renderer.
Variations can now be set per loaded articulation when dragging the slider with the mouse. This allows for crossfading vibrato styles in a Polymap, for example. Changing variations via MIDI CC will continue to affect all variations on that particular MIDI Channel.
SINEplayer now supports the auto-sustain functionality (an upcoming free content update for Metropolis Ark 1's guitars is required for this to work).
Re-designed virtual keyboard with optimized playable range and keyswitch range controls:

The virtual keyboard has been re-designed and features a clearer color scheme that will show used/unused black keys.
The active keyswitch is now highlighted, as are keyswitches when hovering.
If the playable range has been adjusted in either direction, a thin line above the keys will show the extended/recorded range.
If the playable range has been shifted, a +/- indicator next to the drag arrows will show the transposition.
The keyswitch logic has been improved; now, keyswitches will intelligently move out of the way.
UI Improvements:

It is possible again to switch off the sustain pedal in the Articulation Options.
If an articulation has more than nine velocity layers, the DYN tab in the Articulation Options will now show a scroll bar.
The re-designed virtual keyboard brings optimized UI performance when making changes to ranges.
The keyboard arrows will no longer vanish when no instrument is loaded.
Performance and reliability improvements:

SINE Player now reliably works with hosts requiring variable buffer sizes, such as FL Studio.
Fixed a small and very rare memory corruption issue with the progress bar.
Changes to the Controller Map will be saved in presets and dutifully reloaded.
If the drive containing actively loaded instrument loses connection, SINE will no longer freeze.
Deleting a collection from disk and then entering My Licenses will no longer make SINE crash.
If a variation was selected with the mouse (instead of via MIDI CC), upon re-opening a sequencer project, this variation will now play correctly (instead of playing the default variation until the SINE UI was opened).
Saved sampler states will now correctly show empty keys in the playable range.
If an instrument's MIDI channel is set to 'Omni', it will now correctly react to all channels after reloading the project, not just to channel 1.
If you switch legato styles within one articulation, unused styles will now be unloaded and reloaded correctly.
SINEplayer now reacts to CC123 ('All notes off') and reacts better to stopping playback in the middle of a note.
Windows: The installer will now remember your install locations and chosen plugin formats when updating.


----------



## jbuhler (Oct 11, 2021)

I still haven't received an email from OT stating that the new version of Sine is available.


----------



## muziksculp (Oct 11, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I still haven't received an email from OT stating that the new version of Sine is available.


I'm guessing you will get it soon.


----------



## muziksculp (Oct 11, 2021)

Now that SINE is updated to ver. 1.06

Can we expect to see the Berlin Orchestral Series running in SINE very very very Soon ?


----------



## holywilly (Oct 11, 2021)

Can someone recall what are the deals from last BF from OT?


----------



## doctoremmet (Oct 11, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Can someone recall what are the deals from last BF from OT?


Either it is in here, or it ain’t known to man






Tiger the Frog's Alphabetical List of November 2020 Sales


Hi everybody, This is my third year organizing the holiday sales alphabetically in categories. The previous two are here: 2018 and 2019. For the first time this year, I've occasionally added affiliate links. If you'd like to show some support or say thank you for my work, then clicking on...




vi-control.net


----------



## Casiquire (Oct 11, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Can someone recall what are the deals from last BF from OT?


It was half off the orchestral libraries. I'm not positive about the expansions and ARCs and the like


----------



## Germain B (Oct 11, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> WOW !
> 
> A new SINE Player (Ver 1.06) is released, what a timing
> 
> https://www.orchestraltools.com/store/get-sine


You missed it by few days, it was released on Wednesday. Stay focus !


----------



## jbuhler (Oct 11, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I still haven't received an email from OT stating that the new version of Sine is available.



So it showed up in my mailbox while I was posting that.


----------



## muziksculp (Oct 11, 2021)

Germain B said:


> You missed it by few days, it was released on Wednesday. Stay focus !


Oh.. didn't know that. I just got the email notifying me today. 

Thanks anyways. Now where is Berlin Orchestra in SINE ?


----------



## Germain B (Oct 11, 2021)

Some details about the new merge system in the link shared by Tobias here :




__





SINE player


After a mere 293 days, SINE 1.0.6 is out and the Mic Merge issue is finally fixed - it also has multi core support, which works really well on my Mac Pro. Hopefully they can now turn their attention to all the BSS library bugs!



vi-control.net


----------



## Chungus (Oct 11, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> It was half off the orchestral libraries. I'm not positive about the expansions and ARCs and the like


Just the Berlin mains on BF. But in the NI sale, they had 50% off Arks 3 and 4, the Times, and Special Bows. Also 34% off Ark 1 and 2.


----------



## novaburst (Oct 11, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> WOW !
> 
> A new SINE Player (Ver 1.06) is released, what a timing
> 
> https://www.orchestraltools.com/store/get-sine


but it still cant make coffee, come on now its nearly the year 20,22


----------



## Germain B (Oct 12, 2021)

Just made a merge test with BSS Violas Sustains + LEG patch.
I merged Spot 1, Tree and Outrigger in standalone.
The transitions from D4 to Db4, Eb4 to D4, E4 to D4 and E4 to Db4 trigger an additionnal higher octave legato.


----------



## muziksculp (Oct 14, 2021)

@OrchestralTools ,

Thanks for the SINE 1.06 Update.  

So... Are we there yet ? Can we expect some of the Berlin Orchestra libraries in SINE to be released this month ?

It has been a super long wait.

Can you please give us some feedback, besides telling us very soon, yet nothing happens very soon.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## jbuhler (Oct 17, 2021)

Germain B said:


> Just made a merge test with BSS Violas Sustains + LEG patch.
> I merged Spot 1, Tree and Outrigger in standalone.
> The transitions from D4 to Db4, Eb4 to D4, E4 to D4 and E4 to Db4 trigger an additionnal higher octave legato.


The BSS viola legato has unfixed legato issues that were reported last January.


----------



## KEM (Oct 17, 2021)

When the Berlin series gets ported to SINE I will probably pick up the strings and woodwinds, I’m perfectly happy with JXL Brass so I have no need for the Berlin equivalent but I am a big believer in SINE and want to have more products for it, I like it much more than Kontakt


----------



## muziksculp (Oct 25, 2021)




----------



## Consona (Oct 25, 2021)

Looking forward to see JXL stuff in KONTAKT format.


----------



## muziksculp (Oct 25, 2021)

Consona said:


> Looking forward to see JXL stuff in KONTAKT format.


That ain't going to happen.


----------



## RogiervG (Oct 25, 2021)

Consona said:


> Looking forward to see JXL stuff in KONTAKT format.


that's a long long long looking forward for you...
Yes! there see! oh dang you missed it, reading this text... o well. luckely there is sine


----------



## muziksculp (Oct 25, 2021)

I find it interesting that OT demoed some of the Berlin Strings, and I think Woodwinds in SINE when they released their Miroire Library, you can see and hear them in the walkthrough video of Miroire, and that was a while back, so if they were already in SINE at that time, what's taking so long to release them ?

Maybe they are waiting for November 1st ? or ... ?


----------



## holywilly (Oct 26, 2021)

hmm....this one looks interesting, beside the Berlin series in SINE.


----------



## muziksculp (Oct 27, 2021)

holywilly said:


> hmm....this one looks interesting, beside the Berlin series in SINE.



I'm a big fan of Richard Harvey, I wonder what they are cooking this time around, whatever it is, I'm interested. 

But, the big question is ... Where is the Berlin Orchestra in SINE ? What's taking so long ? 

They seem to have the resources to release other libraries, and develop new ones, maybe they should just focus on releasing Berlin Orchestra SINE first.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 14, 2021)

Hello @OrchestralTools ,

What's going on ? Where are the Berlin Orchestra SINE versions coming, 2024 Maybe ? 

Please ... Can you give us some feedback, beside 'Very Soon', because that didn't happen.


----------



## jbuhler (Nov 14, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> 2024 Maybe ?


Always the optimist, I see!


----------



## Nimrod7 (Nov 14, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> What's going on ? Where are the Berlin Orchestra SINE versions coming, 2024 Maybe ?


Hey OT,

No, please hold on, let the BF pass, and let the holidays 🤑 pass...
You have plenty of time, feel free to give your staff some time off too to enjoy...


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev (Nov 14, 2021)

By the way, maybe they are thinking and deciding whether to include Pixelpoet trick in their engine? After all, he so wonderfully lubricates the cut legato of the Berlin strings, the Berlin woodwind revival and the Berlin brass? I haven't written to the developers yet, but it's incredible. The full potential of the current libraries is hidden under the hood, which is partially still possible to reach. And oh my God, I just discovered that Metropolis ark 2 and 4 are incredibly revived after this Pixelpoet trick!


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 14, 2021)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> By the way, maybe they are thinking and deciding whether to include Pixelpoet trick in their engine? After all, he so wonderfully lubricates the cut legato of the Berlin strings, the Berlin woodwind revival and the Berlin brass? I haven't written to the developers yet, but it's incredible. The full potential of the current libraries is hidden under the hood, which is partially still possible to reach. And oh my God, I just discovered that Metropolis ark 2 and 4 are incredibly revived after this Pixelpoet trick!


Hopefully they have implemented the Pixelpoet trick inside their upcoming Berlin Libraries in SINE player. All ready to play some smooth, and expressive legato lines.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 14, 2021)

Nimrod7 said:


> Hey OT,
> 
> No, please hold on, let the BF pass, and let the holidays 🤑 pass...
> You have plenty of time, feel free to give your staff some time off too to enjoy...


Do you have to be a Debbie Downer ?


----------



## dts_marin (Nov 14, 2021)

I think they've only implemented the Pixelpoet trick to their release dates.


----------



## Nimrod7 (Nov 14, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Do you have to be a Debbie Downer ?


They will discount it, and their sales are super rare, in a season that is overwhelmed with discounts. I feel there are better times to get such an offer.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 14, 2021)

Nimrod7 said:


> They will discount it, and their sales are super rare, in a season that is overwhelmed with discounts. I feel there are better times to get such an offer.


Sure, they actually should have a BF discount event on all of their libraries. 

But they should also release their Berlin Series Orchestral Libraries in SINE Player, they have been delaying this for so long, it's not funny any more.


----------



## Casiquire (Nov 14, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hello @OrchestralTools ,
> 
> What's going on ? Where are the Berlin Orchestra SINE versions coming, 2024 Maybe ?
> 
> Please ... Can you give us some feedback, beside 'Very Soon', because that didn't happen.


They just gave us an update. They said it was delayed and they'd give us news at the end of the month


----------



## Casiquire (Nov 14, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Sure, they actually should have a BF discount event on all of their libraries.


Yes they should lol!!


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 14, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> They just gave us an update. They said it was delayed and they'd give us news at the end of the month


Oh.. I might have seen that, and forgot about it. Really Not sure anymore.. But I'm surely running very low on my patience reserves.


----------



## Casiquire (Nov 14, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Oh.. I might have seen that, and forgot about it. Really Not sure anymore.. But I'm surely running very low on my patience reserves.


Lol i can't blame you! Though since lengthening the delays in their orchestral series in kontakt, I'm less interested in the SINE versions than i was


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## Nimrod7 (Nov 15, 2021)




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## RogiervG (Nov 15, 2021)

countdown has started...... (OT don't let us down this year... make it huge. amazing.. superduper mega cool.....like never before...)

Hint: previous year was yummy! (for those who didn't got them.... well.. OT... make it so )


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## ZeeCount (Nov 15, 2021)

I'm hoping for 50% off the expansion libraries as I got the main collections last year.


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## RogiervG (Nov 15, 2021)

i am hoping for 50% on everything... (so everyone can get the stuff wanted)


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## Marsen (Nov 15, 2021)

Majestic Horn 50 %.
That's the deal.


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## muziksculp (Nov 15, 2021)

Nice to know something interesting will be showing up at OT on Nov. 18th.

Great if it's a nice discount event, but I also hope that the SINE versions will also be released on Nov. 18th. and at a discount price for all OT library fans, and are free to all owners of the Kontakt versions.


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## Casiquire (Nov 15, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Nice to know something interesting will be showing up at OT on Nov. 18th.
> 
> Great if it's a nice discount event, but I also hope that the SINE versions will also be released on Nov. 18th. and at a discount price for all OT library fans, and are free to all owners of the Kontakt versions.


I hope the SINE versions come out *just after* the BF sale and everyone can upgrade to it for free, so we get the best of both worlds lol!


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## muziksculp (Nov 15, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I hope the SINE versions come out *just after* the BF sale and everyone can upgrade to it for free, so we get the best of both worlds lol!


Yup, that would be great... Fingers very tightly corssed, because this is OT .


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## Casiquire (Nov 15, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Yup, that would be great... Fingers very tightly corssed, because this is OT .


What are you most excited about with the update? To my understanding about the only big difference we know about is a louder brass layer, but you seem excited beyond that


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## muziksculp (Nov 15, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> What are you most excited about with the update? To my understanding about the only big difference we know about is a louder brass layer, but you seem excited beyond that


Many of the Kontakt OT libraries have sample issues, noise, ..etc. I also think the legatos are not very well implemented. According to OT, they are re-editing these samples, fixing issues, and improving them for the SINE version, so it's not just a SINE shell of the old sample content, there are a lot of improvements that will be benefited from by using the SINE versions.

The SINE version will offer Sonic, Performance, Efficiency, and maybe Legato improvements. That is one of the reasons it is taking them so long to port them to SINE format, they are not just using the same core samples for SINE, there is a lot of fine tuning, and improvements.


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## Casiquire (Nov 15, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Many of the Kontakt OT libraries have sample issues, noise, ..etc. I also think the legatos are not very well implemented. According to OT, they are re-editing these samples, fixing issues, and improving them for the SINE version, so it's not just a SINE shell of the old sample content, there are a lot of improvements that will be benefited from by using the SINE versions.
> 
> The SINE version will offer Sonic, Performance, Efficiency, and maybe Legato improvements. That is one of the reasons it is taking them so long to port them to SINE format, they are not just using the same core samples for SINE, there is a lot of fine tuning, and improvements.


I have very limited experience with SINE. I have Special Bows and the choirs from Ark2, and I'd enjoy both of them much more if i could do the Pixelpoet trick on them. They're very consistent and clean, so maybe that was part of the cleanup process between Kontakt and SINE


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## jbuhler (Nov 15, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Many of the Kontakt OT libraries have sample issues, noise, ..etc. I also think the legatos are not very well implemented. According to OT, they are re-editing these samples, fixing issues, and improving them for the SINE version, so it's not just a SINE shell of the old sample content, there are a lot of improvements that will be benefited from by using the SINE versions.
> 
> The SINE version will offer Sonic, Performance, Efficiency, and maybe Legato improvements. That is one of the reasons it is taking them so long to port them to SINE format, they are not just using the same core samples for SINE, there is a lot of fine tuning, and improvements.


I personally prefer Sine as a player because it generally works better with my workflow than does Capsule. The Ark 1 and 2 and special bows ports had real improvements in the Sine versions over the Kontakt version. But I've been less happy with both the first chair strings and the woodwind soloists. I only have the Sine versions of these two libraries and so can't really compare them, but I find them both quite frustrating to use in the Sine versions and the legatos in both cases are less than happy. In the case of the woodwind soloists, I've had a hard time duplicating the sounds in the official demos produced with the Kontakt versions, likely because the Sine versions don't have the Teldex impulse. 

One assumes that OT knows they have to get the Sine implementation of the main Berlin libraries right if they are going to convince people to accept Sine, and that is at least partially responsible for the delay, but I'll also admit that my less than happy experience with the Sine implementation of the first chair strings and the woodwind soloists has made me nervous about this port.


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## muziksculp (Nov 15, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I personally prefer Sine as a player because it generally works better with my workflow than does Capsule. The Ark 1 and 2 and special bows ports had real improvements in the Sine versions over the Kontakt version. But I've been less happy with both the first chair strings and the woodwind soloists. I only have the Sine versions of these two libraries and so can't really compare them, but I find them both quite frustrating to use in the Sine versions and the legatos in both cases are less than happy. In the case of the woodwind soloists, I've had a hard time duplicating the sounds in the official demos produced with the Kontakt versions, likely because the Sine versions don't have the Teldex impulse.
> 
> One assumes that OT knows they have to get the Sine implementation of the main Berlin libraries right if they are going to convince people to accept Sine, and that is at least partially responsible for the delay, but I'll also admit that my less than happy experience with the Sine implementation of the first chair strings and the woodwind soloists has made me nervous about this port.


I agree. I think we just have to be optimistic that OT knows what they are doing, and have done very thorough QA, and improved many aspects of their Berlin Libraries for their SINE Player. The Berlin Orchestra is the foundation of their Orchestral library catalog.

It is not some fringe, or side line product line, they know they have to prove that it's worth every penny they ask for, they need to be first-class libraries, their reputation is on the line, given the competing libraries these days from Spitfire Audio, Especially with their upcoming AR1 Modular Orchestral library, and CineSamples stepping back into the arena, as a major Sample Developer, then you have VSL with their excellent line of Synchron Libraries, so ..OT needs to step up, and smell the coffee, they are not the only player in town, and I'm noticing they are not very popular as they used to be, from posts on this forum.

We will really know more when they release them in SINE. Let's see what Nov. 18th is all about.


----------



## Marsen (Nov 15, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I personally prefer Sine as a player because it generally works better with my workflow than does Capsule. The Ark 1 and 2 and special bows ports had real improvements in the Sine versions over the Kontakt version. But I've been less happy with both the first chair strings and the woodwind soloists. I only have the Sine versions of these two libraries and so can't really compare them, but I find them both quite frustrating to use in the Sine versions and the legatos in both cases are less than happy. In the case of the woodwind soloists, I've had a hard time duplicating the sounds in the official demos produced with the Kontakt versions, likely because the Sine versions don't have the Teldex impulse.
> 
> One assumes that OT knows they have to get the Sine implementation of the main Berlin libraries right if they are going to convince people to accept Sine, and that is at least partially responsible for the delay, but I'll also admit that my less than happy experience with the Sine implementation of the first chair strings and the woodwind soloists has made me nervous about this port.


OT really should give customers the possibilty to get the kontakt versions for the same deal price, while SINE is not fully ready yet to forget about capsule.

What is the issue not to let us choose?
-Extra download costs and NI fees for Kontakt Player libs.
I'm sure, a lot of us are happy to pay these extrafees.
And they already did that, for Kontakt purchases (10%), which are post SINE Versions. Thats fair.

So there's the problem? 
It's by focussing on SINE-only deals, no Kontakt offers.
Two make it more clear: 
- Kontakt only Libs have the chance on a deal.
- Ported SINE Libs (which formerly were Kontakt and still exist as both formats, SINE + Kontakt, on their website), seems to have no chance for a similar deal.
SINE goes on special price, old kontakt version stays on full price.
Why?
I fully get it with there new libraries, which are SINE only, but the others?

I'm afraid, on 11.18. they will offer just this, like they did last year with the Soloists & First Chairs.

And yes, you can wait on a maybe deal from NI ...


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 15, 2021)

Smell the coffee. .. OT is moving to SINE format, they spent a lot of time and money moving their libraries to their SINE player, why the hell would they want to still deal with Kontakt format ? Makes no sense to them. 

I know there are Kontakt lovers here, but the same has happened with VSL Synchron, EW OPUS, and other developers are also moving away from Kontakt, that's reality, you might not like it, but that's it.


----------



## jbuhler (Nov 15, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I agree. I think we just have to be optimistic that OT knows what they are doing, and have done very thorough QA, and improved many aspects of their Berlin Libraries for their SINE Player. The Berlin Orchestra is the foundation of their Orchestral library catalog.
> 
> It is not some fringe, or side line product line, they know they have to prove that it's worth every penny they ask for, they need to be first-class libraries, their reputation is on the line, given the competing libraries these days from Spitfire Audio, Especially with their upcoming AR1 Modular Orchestral library, and CineSamples stepping back into the arena, as a major Sample Developer, then you have VSL with their excellent line of Synchron Libraries, so ..OT needs to step up, and smell the coffee, they are not the only player in town, and I'm noticing they are not very popular as they used to be, from posts on this forum.
> 
> We will really know more when they release them in SINE. Let's see what Nov. 18th is all about.


For me, one issue is that OT doesn't really fix things that aren't working properly. This is a long-standing issue of course, but it makes me wary if they don't get it right in the first place it may be years if ever before it is right. Personally, I think they are understaffed for what they are trying to do, so it means they never have time to do basic maintenance on their libraries. I don't think they set out to neglect maintenance, it's just that they always have higher priority items on their to do list.

I don't think the woodwind soloists or first chair strings are fringe products. I think OT just thought they would be easy to port and didn't take sufficient care with them because they felt like they needed to get something out. The fact that they delayed Mains is perhaps a recognition that they can't do that again.


----------



## Marsen (Nov 15, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Smell the coffee. .. OT is moving to SINE format, they spent a lot of time and money moving their libraries to their SINE player, why the hell would they want to still deal with Kontakt format ? Makes no sense to them.
> 
> I know there are Kontakt lovers here, but the same has happened with VSL Synchron, EW OPUS, and other developers are also moving away from Kontakt, that's reality, you might not like it, but that's it.


I'm not talking of "dealing with kontakt libs".
I'm not asking for Kontkat Updates *read my post


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 15, 2021)

Marsen said:


> 'm not asking for Kontkat Updates *read my post


I doubt you will se any Kontakt Library Updates from OT. The Updates are in SINE ! 

Good Luck waiting for that to happen.


----------



## Casiquire (Nov 15, 2021)

Nimrod7 said:


>


This just happens to be my payday. If anyone was trying to send me a SINE...


----------



## Jett Hitt (Nov 15, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I don't think the woodwind soloists or first chair strings are fringe products. I think OT just thought they would be easy to port and didn't take sufficient care with them because they felt like they needed to get something out. The fact that they delayed Mains is perhaps a recognition that they can't do that again.


I share your sentiments here about BFC and WW Soloists. I get along with Special Bows and BSS much better. I sure hope the Mains follow suit.


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## jbuhler (Nov 15, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> I share your sentiments here about BFC and WW Soloists. I get along with Special Bows and BSS much better. I sure hope the Mains follow suit.


The Duplex Saxophones, recorded in the same space as the WW Soloists, are great. And I also love Tallinn and Modus, both Sine libraries, and the JXL trombone, another Sine product. It's really only BFC and WW Soloists that have been problems. I mean, other Sine libraries, like BSS, have had issues, but they have been really easy to workaround; that hasn't been true for BFC and WW Soloists.


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## muziksculp (Nov 15, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> It's really only BFC and WW Soloists that have been problems.


What are the problems you noticed with BFC and WW Soloists ?


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## Marsen (Nov 15, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I doubt you will se any Kontakt Library Updates from OT. The Updates are in SINE !
> 
> Good Luck waiting for that to happen.


Seriously, do you read my posts?


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 15, 2021)

Marsen said:


> Seriously, do you read my posts?


What did I miss ?


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 15, 2021)

Marsen said:


> OT really should give customers the possibilty to get the kontakt versions for the same deal price, while SINE is not fully ready yet to forget about capsule.


But you are missing the fact that on Nov. 18th that's what's going to happen/ Could happen. 

Their libraries will be ported to SINE. No more Kontakt options will be offered for these libraries. It is there business, and they can run it as they please, if you have issues with that, why don't you contact them, and spill your anger on them.


----------



## Casiquire (Nov 15, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> But you are missing the fact that on Nov. 18th that's what's going to happen/ Could happen.
> 
> Their libraries will be ported to SINE. No more Kontakt options will be offered for these libraries. It is there business, and they can run it as they please, if you have issues with that, why don't you contact them, and spill your anger on them.


I'm pretty sure they're just announcing their BF deals. That's how it reads to me


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## jbuhler (Nov 15, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> What are the problems you noticed with BFC and WW Soloists ?


I dislike the legato in both, at least as I am capable of rendering it. In WW Soloists, I've had difficulty getting the instruments to sit right with other instruments. I initially thought this was user error (and it may still be) but I don't have the same issue with Duplex Saxophones which are recorded in the same room but for whatever reason I find much easier to work with.

With BFC I get weird artifacts and I find the libraries difficult to work with. Many praise these strings in the Kontakt version, and they get considered along with all the other libraries of the type for use in chamber music. The tone is fine, if a bit heavy in vibrato, but the notes rarely connect up well or convincingly if the part is at all exposed.


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## muziksculp (Nov 15, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I dislike the legato in both, at least as I am capable of rendering it. In WW Soloists, I've had difficulty getting the instruments to sit right with other instruments. I initially thought this was user error (and it may still be) but I don't have the same issue with Duplex Saxophones which are recorded in the same room but for whatever reason I find much easier to work with.
> 
> With BFC I get weird artifacts and I find the libraries difficult to work with. Many praise these strings in the Kontakt version, and they get considered along with all the other libraries of the type for use in chamber music. The tone is fine, if a bit heavy in vibrato, but the notes rarely connect up well or convincingly if the part is at all exposed.


Thanks for the feedback.

I will have to test these libraries, to get a better feel of what you are describing here. Unfortunately, my Audio Interface blacked-out on me last night, no power to the unit, looks like it needs a new Power Supply, it's being fixed now, so hopefully I will get it in the next few days.


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## Marsen (Nov 15, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> What did I miss ?


You missed, that I excactly said the same as you. 
I'm not ecpecting any updates for Kontakt at all.

I'm just asking for an transion from one to another player, which makes all their customers feel more comfortable with.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 15, 2021)

Marsen said:


> You missed, that I excactly said the same as you.
> I'm not ecpecting any updates for Kontakt at all.
> 
> I'm just asking for an transion from one to another player, which makes all their customers feel more comfortable with.


OK. I see. but you do understand that they are most likely not going to be supporting Kontakt any more.

If you own their Kontakt based libraries, then that's it, you have it in Kontakt format, if you want to get the same library in the SINE version you can get it for free as well. What's the problem here ?

You can keep both SINE, and Kontakt version installed on you system, if that's what you want to do, or just keep the one you prefer to save SSD space. 

Their new/upcoming Libraries will not be in Kontakt, meaning, you will only be able to use them in SINE format.

It's as simple as that.


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## andyhy (Nov 15, 2021)

Just saw a tweet from Orchestral Tools to expect a BF announcement on November 18. I hope this will include an update on the porting of the Berlin series to Sine that was announced 12 months ago. I decided to wait for that before buying any other OT products although of course it's best to be patient as none of us want something with bugs.


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## Futchibon (Nov 15, 2021)

andyhy said:


> it's best to be patient as none of us want something with bugs.


Not even Looney Tunes?


----------



## holywilly (Nov 15, 2021)

SINE is able to save 1/4 of RAM when mic merging the 4 active mics. That's one of the best excuses waiting for the SINE version of Berlin series. All other sample players should develop something like this, can't innovate anymore, my ass.


----------



## Evans (Nov 15, 2021)

It's a lovely, lovely feature as long as you don't need the mics going to separate outputs.


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## muziksculp (Nov 15, 2021)

Evans said:


> It's a lovely, lovely feature as long as you don't need the mics going to separate outputs.


Not needed for orchestral sounds.. I have no intentions to add a flanger on mic1, delay on mic2, a chorus on Mic3, and a Shimmer reverb on Mic4 of a i.e. Solo Flute


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## FrozenIcicle (Nov 15, 2021)

Where did they say nov 18th?


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## Futchibon (Nov 15, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> Where did they say nov 18th?


On their social media, FB, Insta, but doesn't seem to be on their website


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 15, 2021)




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## Marsen (Nov 16, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> If you own their Kontakt based libraries, then that's it, you have it in Kontakt format, if you want to get the same library in the SINE version you can get it for free as well. What's the problem here ?


It's not about owning, its about buying!

You still don't read, what I'm writing. 
Instead you are feeding this dead fish on and on.
Count me out.


----------



## Casiquire (Nov 16, 2021)

Marsen said:


> OT really should give customers the possibilty to get the kontakt versions for the same deal price, while SINE is not fully ready yet to forget about capsule.
> 
> What is the issue not to let us choose?
> -Extra download costs and NI fees for Kontakt Player libs.
> ...


I might be missing something, which deals are you referring to? To my knowledge the SINE bundles are the only ones that don't apply to kontakt


----------



## Evans (Nov 16, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Not needed for orchestral sounds.. I have no intentions to add a flanger on mic1, delay on mic2, a chorus on Mic3, and a Shimmer reverb on Mic4 of a i.e. Solo Flute


Being able to EQ and automate individual mics can radically change a mix.


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## muziksculp (Nov 16, 2021)

Evans said:


> Being able to EQ and automate individual mics can radically change a mix.


That's true. But not something I would need on a regular basis.


----------



## Marsen (Nov 16, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I might be missing something, which deals are you referring to? To my knowledge the SINE bundles are the only ones that don't apply to kontakt


Last year, they had a bundle sale for Soloists and First Chairs SINE, while the Kontakt versions had no price offer.


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## Casiquire (Nov 16, 2021)

Marsen said:


> Last year, they had a bundle sale for Soloists and First Chairs SINE, while the Kontakt versions had no price offer.


I see. That's like the current SINE bundles. I see those as their way of promoting SINE and getting more people into that ecosystem, so that would explain not offering the same discount for kontakt, but that was just my impression. Their sales seem to include kontakt most of the time, but not necessarily always.

I did notice something interesting though. If you own single instruments from a full library, your kontakt price is discounted too.


----------



## daviddln (Nov 18, 2021)

All the SINE versions of the Berlin Series main collections are now available!! Thank you OT!!


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

Yes ! FINALLY it happened.

https://www.orchestraltools.com/store/home


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

For those who have the Kontakt versions of the Berlin Series Libraries. 

Do we just use the NI serial numbers of these OT libraries, to add the SINE versions to our SINE account, to be able to download the SINE versions ?


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)




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## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> For those who have the Kontakt versions of the Berlin Series Libraries.
> 
> Do we just use the NI serial numbers of these OT libraries, to add the SINE versions to our SINE account, to be able to download the SINE versions ?


I didn't even need to do that much. Did it not show up in your products already in SINE? For a lot of us that process was automatic!


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

I'm guessing the GB numbers of the compressed content is the size of the SINE version on a library installed on a drive. Not the uncompressed number. in the chart above. (Correct ?)


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I didn't even need to do that much. Did it not show up in your products already in SINE? For a lot of us that process was automatic!


I haven't checked yet, Just having my early morning first Coffee of the day 

That's great if it just shows up in my SINE account


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## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I haven't checked yet, Just having my early morning first Coffee of the day
> 
> That's great if it just shows up in my SINE account


Hopefully you have a nice gift waiting for you in SINE after your coffee 😁


----------



## Paul Jelfs (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> For those who have the Kontakt versions of the Berlin Series Libraries.
> 
> Do we just use the NI serial numbers of these OT libraries, to add the SINE versions to our SINE account, to be able to download the SINE versions ?


Hmmmm I am having trouble adding my Berlin Brass to SINE - which is the one I want to try the most ! 

It says I have ran out of license tries so need to contact support- Hopefully it will be an easy fix . Is anyone else having problems with the libraries not showing up to download in SINE ?


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

It's quite amazing how much their compressed format saves in content space.

The Berlin Series Uncompressed* Total GB : 998*
The Berlin Series Compressed (SINE) format *Total GB : 390*


----------



## galactic orange (Nov 18, 2021)

Paul Jelfs said:


> It says I have ran out of license tries so need to contact support- Hopefully it will be an easy fix . Is anyone else having problems with the libraries not showing up to download in SINE ?


Yes I am getting the same issue, as happened before when I tried to register my Berlin Strings serial number last year to purchase BSS. I copied my code from my Native Instruments account page. I haven’t tried manually entering the code one character at a time rather than copy/paste. Since I gave it another shot and failed another attempt I’m unable to try again for 29 minutes. If the system is going to be so harsh, it should be better able to handle the entry of correct codes, IMO.


----------



## Vik (Nov 18, 2021)

Paul Jelfs said:


> Hmmmm I am having trouble adding my Berlin Brass to SINE - which is the one I want to try the most !
> 
> It says I have ran out of license tries so need to contact support- Hopefully it will be an easy fix . Is anyone else having problems with the libraries not showing up to download in SINE ?


I had the same problem, but copy-pasting the code should be possible (in order to not mix up 'I' with '1', '0' and 'O' etc. 

You can do it in Sine, or on their site (it will show up in Sine next time you launch it).


----------



## storyteller (Nov 18, 2021)

So many questions.... 

BWW Legacy has been my go-to woodwinds for years. Is it not included in BWW for Sine? 
Why is there no cross grade option for me? (I own every BWW lib + expansion except for Revive)
Does anyone know what the ram footprint is for loading ALL articulations for the SINE versions of the Main libraries compared to the Kontakt versions?
Have updates been made to SINE so mic faders can be controlled via CC for these libraries?
How does the new FFF layer sound in Berlin Brass?
How is that mic merge feature working these days?
That's just a start, but for someone using these libraries in a professional manner, those are all pretty darn important questions. Also, it would be near impossible to port an existing workflow over without the expansions yet...


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

Do you have to manually input your Berlin NI licenses into SINE player, or do they automatically show up in SINE ? 

I haven't begun the process of porting my Berlin NI to SINE yet. I have all of the Berlin Series libraries in NI format.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

Just got this email from OT :


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## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

storyteller said:


> So many questions....
> 
> BWW Legacy has been my go-to woodwinds for years. Is it not included in BWW for Sine?
> Why is there no cross grade option for me? (I own every BWW lib + expansion except for Revive)
> ...


Legacy doesn't seem to be included. From my very un-scientific test it seems like RAM footprint is about half. That's about all i can say!


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

I checked the SINE Player, and none of my Berlin Series NI Licenses are showing up in SINE, so I have to manually add each license to my SINE account.


----------



## galactic orange (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Do you have to manually input your Berlin NI licenses into SINE player, or do they automatically show up in SINE ?


update: I was able to register Berlin Brass and Berlin Percussion by manually typing the serial numbers in. Apparently the text format on the Native Instruments website account page is not compatible or something. This may not be the case if copied from the Native Access app which I didn’t try.

However, I’ve hit a snag with BWW registration. I upgraded to Revive when that was released, but the only Kontakt serial I have is for legacy and I get this message when I try to enter it:

“Not a valid product - either it’s already been redeemed or it’s not a SINE product.”

I’m not sure what to do from here. The continuata download code for Revive did nothing.


----------



## coprhead6 (Nov 18, 2021)

Oh my GOD.
It’s happening!! 

I thought that “delay” they posted about would take us into 2022!


----------



## MaxOctane (Nov 18, 2021)

Congratulations to @muziksculp! I'm happiest for you most of all!!


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## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

coprhead6 said:


> Oh my GOD.
> It’s happening!!
> 
> I thought that “delay” they posted about would take us into 2022!


Me too! I expected a sale and an update saying "the SINE conversation will be late Q1"


----------



## Zanshin (Nov 18, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Me too! I expected a sale and an update saying "the SINE conversation will be late Q1"


You have everything now? Was that the last piece?


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## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> You have everything now? Was that the last piece?


I have all four main sections plus timpani and special bows. The only other things I want are the additional winds and muted brass but I'm in zero hurry for that. The bass clarinet would be great but it's not even the same mic setup so i can wait


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## Zanshin (Nov 18, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I have all four main sections plus timpani and special bows. The only other things I want are the additional winds and muted brass but I'm in zero hurry for that. The bass clarinet would be great but it's not even the same mic setup so i can wait


Cool!

I've kicked myself I didn't pick up it up last year when it was on sale. The bundle price is really good too. I have some teldex stuff already in sine... also have MIR with Teldex ... adding stuff like the the euphoniums and wagner tubas from Ark 2 would be cheapish ... I'm quickly talking myself into it haha.

I'd probably make myself pass on Pacific if it comes out anytime soon, but given the PS sale history I could pick up later for about the same price...

Lots to consider


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

galactic orange said:


> However, I’ve hit a snag with BWW registration. I upgraded to Revive when that was released, but the only Kontakt serial I have is for legacy and I get this message when I try to enter it:
> 
> “Not a valid product - either it’s already been redeemed or it’s not a SINE product.”
> 
> I’m not sure what to do from here. The continuata download code for Revive did nothing.


Hi @galactic orange ,

I haven't begun the process of adding my NI Licenses of Berlin Orch. Libraries yet, I will just input the licenses manually from the Native Access app. 

About the Woodwinds issue you are having, I'm not sure which License is needed to activate the SINE version of the Berlin Woodwinds. I will post some feedback here when I get there. 

You can always email OT Tech-Support to help you resolve the license issue. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Cool!
> 
> I've kicked myself I didn't pick up it up last year when it was on sale. The bundle price is really good too. I have some teldex stuff already in sine... also have MIR with Teldex ... adding stuff like the the euphoniums and wagner tubas from Ark 2 would be cheapish ... I'm quickly talking myself into it haha.
> 
> ...


We're wrestling with some similar things. I'm eyeing single instruments from the Arks or THB to round things out too, and I use MIR Teldex as well. Maybe I'm crazy but the Teldex impulse in Altiverb just doesn't do it. But MIR nails it. Puts VSL and Hein right next to BWW with enough fiddling around


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## galactic orange (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @galactic orange ,
> 
> I haven't begun the process of adding my NI Licenses of Berlin Orch. Libraries yet, I will just input the licenses manually from the Native Access app.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I have certainly contacted support about the issue and look forward to the response as well as your feedback. Did you also purchase the Revive upgrade during the initial (and brief) intro offer period?


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## Zanshin (Nov 18, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> We're wrestling with some similar things. I'm eyeing single instruments from the Arks or THB to round things out too, and I use MIR Teldex as well. Maybe I'm crazy but the Teldex impulse in Altiverb just doesn't do it. But MIR nails it. Puts VSL and Hein right next to BWW with enough fiddling around


Exactly my findings too


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

galactic orange said:


> Did you also purchase the Revive upgrade during the initial (and brief) intro offer period?


Yes, I did purchase Revive, most likely when it was first released.


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## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Exactly my findings too


Do you have any part of the main series now? Or are you wondering about the current sale?


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

I find it interesting that OT has not posted any videos showing their Berlin Series Libraries in SINE. 

i.e. new walkthroughs showcasing the SINE versions. I'm guessing these will be posted soon, especially for new buyers of the Berlin Orchestral Series.


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## coprhead6 (Nov 18, 2021)

*I keep editing*

These Berlin Brass FF layers are AMAZING!

They now have a "Sustains Bold" patch now with the FF layer and BOY does it hit! *This might just be a repackaged Bells Up*
The legato sounds like what we were trying to achieve with the Marcato legato. Try this with retongued legato for goosebumps


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## Baronvonheadless (Nov 18, 2021)

Curious for people who own both cinebrass and Berlin brass. What makes Berlin brass twice the price? Is it worth it to you?
Especially now that it’s in sine.

I really shouldn’t be spending money anymore but I do love brass so much. And I have patched together my own brass ensemble (cinebrass Sonore, junkie xl solo horn, bass trombones, 12 trombones, a3 trumpet, cimbasse and tuba) then of course abbey road one and bbc pro.
But I feel like I have good choices for specific things but still lack one cohesive epic library of brass and articulations like multi tongue are missing. I like the articulations in bbc pro but not the tone.


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## Zanshin (Nov 18, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Do you have any part of the main series now? Or are you wondering about the current sale?


I have nothing from BO, just chunks of JXL Brass, Ark I, that kind of thing.


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

I checked my Native Access Berlin Licenses. It shows :

Berlin Strings (Ver. 2.0)
Berlin Woodwinds (Ver. 2.0)
Berlin Brass (Ver. 1.0)
Berlin Perc. (Ver. 1.0) 

I will post more feedback once add these licenses to SINE. Hopefully all goes well.


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

So, those who have the Kontakt version of these Berlin Libraries, are you keeping both versions, or just keeping the SINE, and deleting the Kontakt versions ?


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## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> So, those who have the Kontakt version of these Berlin Libraries, are you keeping both versions, or just keeping the SINE, and deleting the Kontakt versions ?


I'm only keeping the kontakt ones for the time being, but I'll use both brass libraries for those dynamics


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## Getsumen (Nov 18, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> Curious for people who own north cinebrass and Berlin brass. What makes Berlin brass twice the price? Is it worth it to you?
> Especially now that it’s in sine.
> 
> I really shouldn’t be spending money anymore but I do love brass so much. And I have patched together my own brass ensemble (cinebrass Sonore, junkie xl solo horn, bass trombones, 12 trombones, a3 trumpet, cimbasse and tuba) then of course abbey road one and bbc pro.
> But I feel like I have good choices for specific things but still lack one cohesive epic library of brass and articulations like multi tongue are missing. I like the articulations in bbc pro but not the tone.


Cinebrass is quite lacking in the articulation department isn't it? Berlin Brass seems to have some pretty good articulation consistency between sections.

I also heard that the sololists weren't as good as the ensembles in CineBrass, although that's probably more subjective.

Gonna toss out a few more questions for BB owners as well though. 

1. Were the FF layers for everything? Or only a few select core articulations.
2. What are the Trumpet Zampano patches? Haven't heard that before.


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

Did OT mention they will be posting video walkthroughs of their SINE Berlin Orch. in the commercial OT Berlin Series in SINE Thread ?


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## Chungus (Nov 18, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Cinebrass is quite lacking in the articulation department isn't it? Berlin Brass seems to have some pretty good articulation consistency between sections.
> 
> I also heard that the sololists weren't as good as the ensembles in CineBrass, although that's probably more subjective.
> 
> ...


The zampano trumpets have always been there. Basically, they use _heavy_ vibrato, like you'd hear on a Western score.


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## Evans (Nov 18, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> Curious for people who own both cinebrass and Berlin brass. What makes Berlin brass twice the price? Is it worth it to you?
> Especially now that it’s in sine.


Beyond the difference in articulations and the obvious reason for wanting individually recorded players, the individual players for Berlin can be clutch when trying to get away from a bad take, a bug, goofy scripting, etc. 

It's a sad reason to like BB, but I've had to transpose trick away myself from interval weirdness in CineBrass before. Berlin has the same issues, absolutely, but you can often just load up another player and not really notice the swap-out.


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## branshen (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> It's quite amazing how much their compressed format saves in content space.
> 
> The Berlin Series Uncompressed* Total GB : 998*
> The Berlin Series Compressed (SINE) format *Total GB : 390*


Does this mean that if I get the berlin series sine version, I only need to allocate the space for the compressed version?

187GB uncompressed vs 54GB compressed for the woodwinds is a crazy difference!


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## Getsumen (Nov 18, 2021)

Chungus said:


> The zampano trumpets have always been there. Basically, they use _heavy_ vibrato, like you'd hear on a Western score.


Ah, thanks for the clarification.

I didn't realize they were there until OT split the patches up to make them more obvious to see.


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## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Cinebrass is quite lacking in the articulation department isn't it? Berlin Brass seems to have some pretty good articulation consistency between sections.
> 
> I also heard that the sololists weren't as good as the ensembles in CineBrass, although that's probably more subjective.
> 
> ...


There were already good FF layers for most articulations. Most of the complaints about the top end was about the legato; shorts and marcato and other longs were already really good. I'm not sure the actual answer to your question, but the library wasn't lacking in many places


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## PaulieDC (Nov 18, 2021)

coprhead6 said:


> *I keep editing*
> 
> These Berlin Brass FF layers are AMAZING!
> 
> ...


BB is also my favorite brass library hands down!


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I'm only keeping the kontakt ones for the time being, but I'll use both brass libraries for those dynamics


Did you just get these libraries, or you had them before ?


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## musicalweather (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> So, those who have the Kontakt version of these Berlin Libraries, are you keeping both versions, or just keeping the SINE, and deleting the Kontakt versions ?


A long discussion of that over here: https://vi-control.net/community/th...keep-the-kontakt-version-or-delete-it.116380/


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## galactic orange (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Yes, I did purchase Revive, most likely when it was first released.


Got it to work after entering my Revive download code again. Just had to press enter and wait for the code to be recognized. All good here now! I hope your registration goes smoothly.


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## mybadmemory (Nov 18, 2021)

But. What will you be looking forward to now? 🥲


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## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Did you just get these libraries, or you had them before ?


I got all the main libraries but the strings last year


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

branshen said:


> Does this mean that if I get the berlin series sine version, I only need to allocate the space for the compressed version?
> 
> 187GB uncompressed vs 54GB compressed for the woodwinds is a crazy difference!


Yes, the difference is huge. 

I'm not 100% sure if this also means the amount of disc space is reduced by this amount. I'm guessing the answer is Yes, but I don't want to say for sure, since I'm not sure either. I posted asking the same question, but I don't think there was a reply, OT should be able to tell us about this important detail.


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## Eptesicus (Nov 18, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Cool!
> 
> I've kicked myself I didn't pick up it up last year when it was on sale. The bundle price is really good too. I have some teldex stuff already in sine... also have MIR with Teldex ... adding stuff like the the euphoniums and wagner tubas from Ark 2 would be cheapish ... I'm quickly talking myself into it haha.
> 
> ...



Was it cheaper than 50% off last year?


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I got all the main libraries but the strings last year


Congrats ! That's a smart move.  

My guess is the SINE version of BS has been improved quite a bit compared to the Kontakt version. You might want to install the SINE version of Berlin Strings as well if you have the SSD space.


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## Raphioli (Nov 18, 2021)

Pretty disappointed to read that the SINE version of woodwinds doesn't include Legacy.
Glad I bought the Kontakt version a few years ago.

BTW, im very curious after reading the Pixelpoet trick thread, which is,
which would sound better,
"legatos in the SINE version of Berlin Strings" or "legatos in the Kontakt version of Berlin Strings with the Pixelpoet trick applied".


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> Pretty disappointed to read that the SINE version of woodwinds doesn't include Legacy.


But you are ignoring the fact that the SINE version of the Woodwinds has been improved quite a bit compared to the Kontakt version. I wouldn't judge it that fast.


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## Babe (Nov 18, 2021)

Has the Kontakt BB been updated with the FF layer? With the FF layer and the price, I am willing to finally pull the chain on BB. However, I am not particularly happy about Sine at this time.


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## EwigWanderer (Nov 18, 2021)

I bought Berlin Strings few years ago but at the moment it’s on my backup drive. Yes there are great things about it but for some reason I don’t like the sound of the long notes. Especially the sordino effect is very bad compared to Hollywood Strings sordino effect. It sounds basically like there would be a thick blanket in front of my speakers. HS is more silky and I don’t think it’s only because HS has more players.


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## Raphioli (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> But you are ignoring the fact that the SINE version of the Woodwinds has been improved quite a bit compared to the Kontakt version. I wouldn't judge it that fast.


Yeah, I'm assuming they would improve the legatos, which is why I'm starting to think I would need to buy additional SSDs... (to keep the Kontakt version, while getting the SINE version too, because the SINE version doesn't have a run builder)


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## RogiervG (Nov 18, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> Yeah, I'm assuming they would improve the legatos, which is why I'm starting to think I would need to buy additional SSDs... (to keep the Kontakt version, while getting the SINE version too, because the SINE version doesn't have a run builder)


Maybe not a builder, but they have:


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

EwigWanderer said:


> I bought Berlin Strings few years ago but at the moment it’s on my backup drive. Yes there are great things about it but for some reason I don’t like the sound of the long notes. Especially the sordino effect is very bad compared to Hollywood Strings sordino effect. It sounds basically like there would be a thick blanket in front of my speakers. HS is more silky and I don’t think it’s only because HS has more players.


Lots has been improved in the BS SINE version. I haven't installed, and tested any of the Berlin Series in SINE yet, but that's what OT was doing all this time, it wasn't just a 1:1 format port project. 

Oh.. and I love HOOPUS Strings as well, they have that very silky-rich sound.


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## Zanshin (Nov 18, 2021)

Eptesicus said:


> Was it cheaper than 50% off last year?


I think it was 50% no bundle price? I think the bundle is actually less than than if you bought it all last year (except it's Sine only).


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## Raphioli (Nov 18, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> Maybe not a builder, but they have:


Isn't that basically the same method which Spitfire used to create their fast runs patch?
How the run builder is built is kind of unique and at least to me, it sounded more natural, which is why its one of the features I like about Berlin WWs.


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## Altauria (Nov 18, 2021)

Do these libraries have controllable vibrato across the instruments? (breath controller or otherwise) I didn't see any info on their website about it. Many thanks!


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## Drumdude2112 (Nov 18, 2021)

Definitely a BIG day around here 😃👍🏻🎉🎊🥳🍾👯‍♀️


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## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> Pretty disappointed to read that the SINE version of woodwinds doesn't include Legacy.
> Glad I bought the Kontakt version a few years ago.
> 
> BTW, im very curious after reading the Pixelpoet trick thread, which is,
> ...





muziksculp said:


> But you are ignoring the fact that the SINE version of the Woodwinds has been improved quite a bit compared to the Kontakt version. I wouldn't judge it that fast.


I haven't done a comparison with the strings just yet since i only just got them a couple hours ago and only got a few minutes of noodling with them, but in comparing the woodwinds, no, the SINE version is not better than Kontakt plus the trick. The transitions sound identical to the original library but might be cleaned up and made more consistent and smoother (as in, bump-free). The original was already pretty smooth imo


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## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

Altauria said:


> Do these libraries have controllable vibrato across the instruments? (breath controller or otherwise) I didn't see any info on their website about it. Many thanks!


Yes, by simple crossfade. The vibrato is tasteful to begin with so i don't find myself reaching for it anyway


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## Paul Jelfs (Nov 18, 2021)

I wonder how long it will be until we see the first walkthrough videos ! I am sure in the porting process there will be changes, and somethings added or made easier etc. 

Can those with Berlin WW Revive confirm if they are still much quieter , or have they normalised the volumes some what ? Are there any other major changes to the Woodwinds , or Brass or Strings for that matter? I know they added the FFF Brass I am sure. Anything else I missed 

I only have Berlin WW Legacy, and while I would of loved to see that on Sine, I did not expect it tbh.


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

Paul Jelfs said:


> I wonder how long it will be until we see the first walkthrough videos !


I have been wondering about this as well. OT releases their major Orchestral Line up on SINE, but do not post a single video about it. I'm sure they are working on the videos, but it's odd that they didn't have it ready on the release day.


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## Paul Jelfs (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


>


Character - Flagship ? Surely "Majestic, Orchestral, Symphonic etc or something more descriptive ?" Or just leave it out if they are all the same  

Or you heard it hear first - "Berlin Strings Lite" , "Berlin WW Lite " etc coming soon !


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## Evans (Nov 18, 2021)

Sorry if this has come up, but watch out for volume inconsistencies if swapping out instruments.

Horn 1 Legato, for example, sounds about the same across Kontakt and SINE.

Horn Ens Bells Up, on the other hand, has SINE being _*waaaaaaaay*_ louder on the articulations I've tested compared to the same Kontakt patches. *Quite *uncomfortably, unacceptably different.


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## Altauria (Nov 18, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Yes, by simple crossfade. The vibrato is tasteful to begin with so i don't find myself reaching for it anyway


Thanks!


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## hsindermann (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I have been wondering about this as well. OT releases their major Orchestral Line up on SINE, but do not post a single video about it. I'm sure they are working on the videos, but it's odd that they didn't have it ready on the release day.


They have new walkthrough videos up on their website as far as I can see - just for some reason they haven't listed them on their youtube channel.


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## Getsumen (Nov 18, 2021)

hsindermann said:


> They have new walkthrough videos up on their website as far as I can see - just for some reason they haven't listed them on their youtube channel.


I didn't see Berlin Strings so maybe they're waiting on that.

Edit: Actually the BWW walkthroughs linked are the old ones too! Not sure if they're not going to redo one (Since the old ones were already comprehensive) or if it's also a work in progress.


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## FrozenIcicle (Nov 18, 2021)

Dammit why didnt they discount the Ark series


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

OT has SINE version videos for the Berlin Perc. , and Berlin Brass, but not the Strings, and Woodwinds yet, the Woodwinds video is pretty old from 2017 showing the Kontakt Revive version, the Strings have no videos posted yet.


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## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> Dammit why didnt they discount the Ark series


Eh, not so fast there, i think the Arks are similar to the main series in their SINE transition, but it went under the radar because nobody was using the legato trick on the Arks in kontakt, so there wasn't as much attention on them. I'm not crazy about the feel of the legato of the choirs from Ark 2 in SINE.


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