# Tallinn: Voices and strings. Single instruments available!



## OrchestralTools (Apr 19, 2021)

Announcing:
Tallinn—voices and strings



The evocative sound of a unique music culture, bridging a thousand years from the ancient to the contemporary. Tallinn features the world-famous Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir and Tallinn Chamber Orchestra plus two organs—all recorded in the iconic _Niguliste_ church.

With a pure, wintry, ‘Nordic’ sound, Tallinn is equally well suited to early music as to contemporary minimalism and avant garde, adding distinctive textures to dramatic scores, underscoring, and any other expressive compositions.

*Pre-order offer*
Only €249 (+VAT)
_Pre-order ends May 4_


Find out more about Tallinn here: orchestraltools.com/store/collections/tallinn


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## Evans (Apr 19, 2021)

Please tell me what this is, how much it will cost, and when it is coming out.


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## jbuhler (Apr 19, 2021)

Choir? An addition to the Time series?


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## jbuhler (Apr 19, 2021)

Evans said:


> Please tell me what this is, how much it will cost, and when it is coming out.


It wouldn't be an annoying teaser ad if they did that now, would it?


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## RogiervG (Apr 19, 2021)

metropolis 5 "deep glacier orchestra"


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 19, 2021)

It looks like snow or clouds, so I'd say something freezy or breezy.


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## Artemi (Apr 19, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> It looks like snow or clouds, so I'd say something freezy or breezy.


you must now something...


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## Dmitry (Apr 19, 2021)

Cool, but you still haven't even fixed main feature "mic merge" in BSS, almost half a year has passed...


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## tritonely (Apr 19, 2021)

at the edge of silence...


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 19, 2021)

Metropolis Ark 5 - Tundra. Or maybe it's Taiga?


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## Getsumen (Apr 19, 2021)

Oh neat a choir. Doesn't seem to be an arc though considering the forest instead of an industrial steampunk setting


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## FireGS (Apr 19, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> It looks like snow or clouds, so I'd say something freezy or breezy.


Freezy, breezy, beautiful cover girl?


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## VVEremita (Apr 19, 2021)

Orchestral Tools and Choir sure is a promising connection


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## muziksculp (Apr 19, 2021)

Dmitry said:


> Cool, but you still haven't even fixed main feature "mic merge" in BSS, almost half a year has passed...


+2000.

Hi, @OrchestralTools , please let us know what's going on with regards to this. BSS & SINE improvements/fixes we are Still waiting. Waiting for fixes is Not a fun thing to do.

Also Looking forward to this upcoming new library.

Thanks.


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## chrisav (Apr 19, 2021)

Berlin Choir?


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## jbuhler (Apr 19, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> +2000.
> 
> Hi, @OrchestralTools , please let us know what's going on with regards to this. BSS & SINE improvements/fixes we are Still waiting. Waiting for fixes is Not a fun thing to do.
> 
> ...


My recollection is that most of the updates to Sine have coincided with a major new library release. If so, maybe the release of this library means the Sine update with the mic merge fix is imminent.


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## sostenuto (Apr 19, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> My recollection is that most of the updates to Sine have coincided with a major new library release. If so, maybe the release of this library means the Sine update with the mic merge fix is imminent.


......... beat me to it !! 🙄


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## davidson (Apr 19, 2021)

It's got creative soundpack branding by the looks of it so don't get your hopes up for a new metropolis or time.

@OrchestralTools Are you ever going to add NKS compatibility to your sine instruments? Navigating a libraries key zones without the lightguide is at the bottom of my fun things to do list.


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## Sips Tea (Apr 19, 2021)

davidson said:


> It's got creative soundpack branding by the looks of it so don't get your hopes up for a new metropolis or time.
> 
> @OrchestralTools Are you ever going to add NKS compatibility to your sine instruments? Navigating a libraries key zones without the lightguide is at the bottom of my fun things to do list.


If it is a new creative soundpacks library, then why would they tease it in a separate commercial announcements thread as apposed to the current one they use for all creative soundpacks announcements? This could be something that's entirely different from their TIME and Metropolis Ark series.


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## jbuhler (Apr 19, 2021)

This thread is why they do these teasers, even though we all claim to hate teasers...


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## muziksculp (Apr 19, 2021)

Since they used a female Choir in the teaser, I'm guessing it might be a Choir Library, in a similar style to their Metropolis Ark series. Maybe an OT-Epic Choirs library. But it could be something different as well.

Do you think Coming Soon means this week ?


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## Ian Dorsch (Apr 19, 2021)

Definitely on board with more OT choir, if that's what this turns out to be.


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## Sips Tea (Apr 19, 2021)

I'm really hoping it's the Berlin Choir library that will inevitably be made. I'm guessing the release could be within 2-3 weeks if it's a major release.


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## jbuhler (Apr 19, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Since they used a female Choir in the teaser, I'm guessing it might be a Choir Library, in a similar style to their Metropolis Ark series. Maybe an OT-Epic Choirs library. But it could be something different as well.
> 
> Do you think Coming Soon means this week ?


For big libraries, OT has generally favored offering pre-release pricing for several weeks before the library is released. But BSS was handled completely different, so who knows?


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## muziksculp (Apr 19, 2021)

Lots of action this month


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## Trash Panda (Apr 19, 2021)

JXL Choirs confirmed.


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## muziksculp (Apr 19, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> JXL Choirs confirmed.


That makes sense  

Where was it confirmed ?


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## Trash Panda (Apr 19, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> That makes sense
> 
> Where was it confirmed ?


Let's say it's confirmed in the same sense Half Life 3 has been confirmed.


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## Peter Satera (Apr 19, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> JXL Choirs confirmed.


Someone asked him what choirs would he recommend in the chat the other day. He said, 'Orchestral Tools make great choirs'...I was like...ehh. He must mean Metro or time then?


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## chocobitz825 (Apr 19, 2021)

OT didn’t even wait for the EW thread to cool down...

too soon, OT, too soon!


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## Mr Sakitumi (Apr 19, 2021)

I’m intrigued...Time Meso or maybe Time Metro? 🤔 🙃


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## RSK (Apr 19, 2021)

When did Spitfire buy OT?


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## ism (Apr 19, 2021)

Creative soundpack with some kind of vocoder is my guess


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## Gingerbread (Apr 19, 2021)

I guess OT hired Spitfire's marketing guy.


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## Sunny Schramm (Apr 19, 2021)

"Cold Season Creative Drama Toolkit" with a big SINE 1.1 Update


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## muziksculp (Apr 19, 2021)

Will SINE 1.1 be a Game Changer ?


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## Sunny Schramm (Apr 19, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Will SINE 1.1 be a Game Changer ?


has to be  

- smaller library-icons or better just a list to choose from withou scrolling
- de-load loaded instruments by double-click
- playable preview-articulations for a better selection of what you really need/want to load
- etc.

feel free to add more feature-wishes


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## Kony (Apr 19, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> It looks like snow or clouds, so I'd say something freezy or breezy.


Looks like an overhead drone shot of a forest in winter - I'd say this is a choir library btw. I bet you know but can't say lol


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 19, 2021)

Kony said:


> Looks like an overhead drone shot of a forest in winter - I'd say this is a choir library btw. I bet you know but can't say lol


Actually atm I'm just as in the dark as you are. I might get some info soon but I'm curious George over here


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## Scalms (Apr 19, 2021)

I'm still waiting for the OT Zenith competition where we have to guess where in the world Hendrik is


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## Toecutter (Apr 19, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> Someone asked him what choirs would he recommend in the chat the other day. He said, 'Orchestral Tools make great choirs'...I was like...ehh. He must mean Metro or time then?


I highly doubt it would be possible to record a choir the OT way with covid protocol. Unless recordings were done a long time ago and they managed to keep it a secret, kudos to them if that's the case XD


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## Michel Simons (Apr 19, 2021)

Is this the new thing Christian and Paul are going to talk about this Thursday?


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## muziksculp (Apr 19, 2021)

Michel Simons said:


> Is this the new thing Christian and Paul are going to talk about this Thursday?


Yes, April 22nd.


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## OrchestralTools (Apr 20, 2021)

Dmitry said:


> Cool, but you still haven't even fixed main feature "mic merge" in BSS, almost half a year has passed...


A fix will be released in the next SINE update @Dmitry


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## Peter Satera (Apr 20, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> I highly doubt it would be possible to record a choir the OT way with covid protocol. Unless recordings were done a long time ago and they managed to keep it a secret, kudos to them if that's the case XD


*Muted Choirs*


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## muziksculp (Apr 20, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> A fix will be released in the next SINE update


Well, we know that, but when will it happen ? It's taking so... LONG.


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## Kabraxis (Apr 20, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> *Muted Choirs*


Hope we can crossfade between masked and unmasked patches via modwheel.


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## FireGS (Apr 20, 2021)

Kabraxis said:


> Hope we can crossfade between masked and unmasked patches via modwheel.


You win this thread.


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## Drundfunk (Apr 20, 2021)

Orchestral Tools Natura. A library inspired by the beauty of nature. This one was easy


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## Sunny Schramm (Apr 20, 2021)

Drundfunk said:


> Orchestral Tools Natura. A library inspired by the beauty of nature. This one was easy


No, we already had that with Arbos


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## Drundfunk (Apr 20, 2021)

Sunny Schramm said:


> No, we already had that with Arbos


Nah, that one was inspired by deforestation and the anthropocene. Totally different. I mean they also have the Dagu drum but also the Phoenix Orchestra.


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## Sunny Schramm (Apr 20, 2021)

Drundfunk said:


> Nah, that one was inspired by deforestation and the anthropocene. Totally different. I mean they also have the Dagu drum but also the Phoenix Orchestra.


so a forest is not natura?


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## lp59burst (Apr 20, 2021)

Drundfunk said:


> Nah, that one was inspired by deforestation and the *anthropocene*. Totally different. I mean they also have the Dagu drum but also the Phoenix Orchestra.


Been a while since I've had to look a word up in the dictionary... well played...


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## PeterN (Apr 21, 2021)

Looks like Arkhis 2, with vocal focus. 

Great, put Arkhis 1 on sale then also, many here will buy it if on sale.


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## LudovicVDP (Apr 21, 2021)

Kabraxis said:


> Hope we can crossfade between masked and unmasked patches via modwheel.


Tree mic, room mic, close mic and covid mic...


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## OrchestralTools (Apr 21, 2021)

Announcing:
Tallinn—voices and strings



The evocative sound of a unique music culture, bridging a thousand years from the ancient to the contemporary. Tallinn features the world-famous Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir and Tallinn Chamber Orchestra plus two organs—all recorded in the iconic _Niguliste_ church.

With a pure, wintry, ‘Nordic’ sound, Tallinn is equally well suited to early music as to contemporary minimalism and avant garde, adding distinctive textures to dramatic scores, underscoring, and any other expressive compositions.

*Pre-order offer*
Only €249 (+VAT)
_Pre-order ends May 4_


Find out more about Tallinn here: orchestraltools.com/store/collections/tallinn


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 21, 2021)

Yes.


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## ism (Apr 21, 2021)

Ok, wow, that looks really interesting ...

Though you’d think that OT is going to have to get bored of taking all my money at some point ....


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## LudovicVDP (Apr 21, 2021)

Damn........ this sounds nice.


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## dcoscina (Apr 21, 2021)

Ok, colour me impressed. this actually really knocked me out. I love Part's music and I can see a lot of applications for this sound in my own music. Nice job Orchestral Tools!


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## holywilly (Apr 21, 2021)

Pre-Ordered!


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## fourier (Apr 21, 2021)

Impressive audio demos, would love to see a video presentation of one of them to see what amount of effort went into this type of realism.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 21, 2021)

fourier said:


> Impressive audio demos, would love to see a video presentation of one of them to see what amount of effort went into this type of realism.


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## davidson (Apr 21, 2021)

@OrchestralTools Any plans on NKS?


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## axb312 (Apr 21, 2021)

@OrchestralTools Pls provide some info about dynamic layers and RRs.


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## purplehamster (Apr 21, 2021)

Whoa...this sounds amazing!!!


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## Manaberry (Apr 21, 2021)

Amazing... I'm seeing myself at the Baldur's Gate!


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## aka70 (Apr 21, 2021)

This looks sooo good, really in love with the sound


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## David Kudell (Apr 21, 2021)

I love this library so much, it’s instantly my favorite. I had the opportunity to write some music for the making of video with it. I‘m ashamed to admit I didn’t know much about Estonia or the music of Arvo Pärt but now I want to go visit there and I’ve been enjoying his music.


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## VVEremita (Apr 21, 2021)

I am actually really excited about this. What great times to work with samples. I can't believe it. 

Syllable longs sound like a very good idea. I have enough Ohhs and Aaahs. Just a small addition of consonants adds a whole new level of "realism" (beauty). I am curious about how this idea is applied in terms of variety and sound. The demos give that instant-Pärt feel. Beautiful.


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## grabauf (Apr 21, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> I love this library so much, it’s instantly my favorite. I had the opportunity to write some music for the making of video with it. I‘m ashamed to admit I didn’t know much about Estonia or the music of Arvo Pärt but now I want to go visit there and I’ve been enjoying his music.


Btw.: "The Story of Tallinn" is a gorgeous track. Love it!


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## Markrs (Apr 21, 2021)

Love Arvo Part. One of my favourite pieces of his "I am the true vine" was written for the 900th anniversary of the foundation of Norwich Cathedral in 1996, which is located in my home city.

So to me this library sounds so amazing.


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## OrchestralTools (Apr 21, 2021)

In case you're interested in the why and how, we filmed the video below during the recordings of Tallinn:



It was a real honor to be able to record the Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir (EPCC) and the Tallinn Chamber Orchestra (TCO). To say we were blown away by their sound is an understatement.


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## tritonely (Apr 21, 2021)

Anyone also get the "Goodness gracious!" message when trying pre-ordering?


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## jsnleo (Apr 21, 2021)

tritonely said:


> Anyone also get the "Goodness gracious!" message when trying pre-ordering?


Yes.


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## tritonely (Apr 21, 2021)

My guardian angel protecting me to spend money haha


jsnleo said:


> Yes.


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## gedlig (Apr 21, 2021)

Being lithuanian, I'm not really keen on this being called Baltic as Estonia is ugro-finnic, but still happy to see our half brothers getting a presumably nice library :D Good job, OT and the musicians involved. Best of luck on this release 👍🏻


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## rottoy (Apr 21, 2021)

This is the first time in quite a while that I can genuinely hear a unique sound profile in an orchestral sample library. Even gave me goosebumps listening to it. Very excited for a walkthrough.


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## ism (Apr 21, 2021)

At risk of merely stating the stupendously obvious (to anyone who knows me) ... Oh My &*^$ing God I *love* this.


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## fourier (Apr 21, 2021)

gedlig said:


> Being lithuanian, I'm not really keen on this being called Baltic as Estonia is ugro-finnic, but still happy to see our half brothers getting a presumably nice library :D Good job, OT and the musicians involved. Best of luck on this release 👍🏻


I'm sure us northerners on the other side of the sea are more than happy if they want to call this beauty "Nordic sound", but I don't think that would be more accurate than Baltic.


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## Evans (Apr 21, 2021)

When OT hits the mark, they really hit the mark. 

Feels like another win for me in the same way that MODUS is: inspiration in a box that, gasp, manages to remain in the final project.


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## ism (Apr 21, 2021)

Has anyone said game changing yet?

Because if not I’m just going to say it. I’m truly in awe here. Tundra-esque awe.


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## PeterN (Apr 21, 2021)

Sounds fresh, not like half of choir has depression, which is great.


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## Drumdude2112 (Apr 21, 2021)

This sounds utterly LOVELY !!!
Call me impressed !


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## angeruroth (Apr 21, 2021)

Damn, I'm hearing Tundraesque and Pärtesque... Glad my GAS is cured


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## FireGS (Apr 21, 2021)

tritonely said:


> Anyone also get the "Goodness gracious!" message when trying pre-ordering?


Same.


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## Ian Dorsch (Apr 21, 2021)

Oh my goodness, this is stunning.


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## ism (Apr 21, 2021)

All I can say is thank God this doesn’t cost like, a million euros, because I would probably have to buy it anyway.



Ian Dorsch said:


> Oh my goodness, this is stunning.



I love your choral work on the PotG OST, can’t wait to see what you might do with this.


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## muziksculp (Apr 21, 2021)

This is Fantastic ! 

Thanks You Very Much Orchestral Tools.  

I always wanted this type of Choir sounds, I also love it that you decided to add their unique Chamber Strings, and Organ to this library. 

Preordered


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## ism (Apr 21, 2021)

Just a couple of links for anyone who wants to hit the ground running on release:


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## Ian Dorsch (Apr 21, 2021)

ism said:


> All I can say is thank God this doesn’t cost like, a million euros, because I would probably have to buy it anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> I love your choral work on the PotG OST, can’t wait to see what you might do with this.


Frankly if I'd had access to sounds like this when we started working on Praey my life would have been a lot easier!


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## CT (Apr 21, 2021)

Oh, now this is my kind of thing. Interesting....


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## Toecutter (Apr 21, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> Announcing:
> Tallinn—Baltic voices and strings
> 
> 
> ...



ok I'm in love, thank you OT for not wasting our time with the dumb marketing and just dropping the bomb. That's all I need to pre-order: full details, awesome demos, a fair price and your pedigree. Fucking amazing!


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## emilio_n (Apr 21, 2021)

Really interesting. Thanks, OT!


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## prodigalson (Apr 21, 2021)

god damn it. It's almost like OT decided to create a library solely based on my personal taste


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## Toecutter (Apr 21, 2021)

Fair play to make me scroll down to find Sascha's track XD Didn't regret listening to the other demos, that's a first a says a lot about the quality of Talinn. I'm only annoyed that now everyone else will have access the same sounds XD Can you kindly adjust the price to €2499 (+VAT) after I place my order?


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## LudovicVDP (Apr 21, 2021)

Knowing how rare the sales are with OT, I'm very very sad that I can't grab it now at the intro price...
Oh well... That's another one to add to my frustration list.


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## gedlig (Apr 21, 2021)

fourier said:


> I'm sure us northerners on the other side of the sea are more than happy if they want to call this beauty "Nordic sound", but I don't think that would be more accurate than Baltic.


They do write Nordic sound in the description, though :D But regionally true, this is more accurate. It's just that with these kind of namings it's a very multilevel question, but I'm also a pain in the arse with details, so had to make that comment. Maybe one is lucky enough for this naming format to mean they're doing a library for all three countries.


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## CT (Apr 21, 2021)

prodigalson said:


> god damn it. It's almost like OT decided to create a library solely based on my personal taste


Yeah I haven't felt this personally obligated to buy something since Eric W's choir.


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## Ian Dorsch (Apr 21, 2021)

This choir sounds like what I wish the Eric W choirs had sounded like!


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## FireGS (Apr 21, 2021)

Can we all agree, and give thanks, that they weren't wearing masks for the recording?

... will miss the idea of modwheel fades from masks on to masks off, though.


OMG. CHOIRS CON SORDINO. Someone make this happen, for real.


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## CT (Apr 21, 2021)

Ian Dorsch said:


> This choir sounds like what I wish the Eric W choirs had sounded like!


Ah I wouldn't trade that one for anything, but this is a very nice different flavor. Really excited about this. I just hope Sine works for me....


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## muziksculp (Apr 21, 2021)

FireGS said:


> Can we all agree, and give thanks, that they weren't wearing masks for the recording?
> 
> ... will miss the idea of modwheel fades from masks on to masks off, though.
> 
> ...


LOL.. You never know, they might have a Vol. 2 : The Masked Estonian Choir Ensemble. With Sordino Chamber Strings.


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## FireGS (Apr 21, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> LOL.. You never know, they might have a Vol. 2 : The Masked Estonian Choir Ensemble. With Sordino Chamber Strings.


I can't help but think some CC controlled EQ could actually simulate a choir wearing masks.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Apr 21, 2021)

Guess this doesn't contain any sutartinės or neutral second Schwebungsdiaphonie?

"The term Schwebungsdiaphonie (‘beat diaphony’) refers to two-part musical (usually vocal) styles with a lot of dissonant (beating) intervals such as seconds. In contrast to Western tonal music, the dissonant sonorities in Schwebungsdiaphonie lie at the core of their tonal structures. . . . Sutartinės are a Lithuanian type of Schwebungsdiaphonie . . . .

The psychoacoustic studies were overviewed and discrepancies between the concepts of roughness and sensory dissonance were noted. The experimental findings on the intervals corresponding to the maximum values of roughness / sensory dissonance were collated and significant disparities were found. It seems that, at least for a substantial frequency range, maximum roughness is associated with larger interval sizes than maximum sensory dissonance. Comparing these results with the findings of acoustical measurements of Sutartinė performances suggests that the ideal vocal “clash” in Sutartinės involves maximum roughness, but not maximum sensory dissonance. The tonal hierarchies in Sutartinės diverge substantially from Krumhansl’s tonal hierarchy profiles, anchoring on a central nucleus and dissipating towards more peripheral pitches. Nevertheless, some associations with the tension-relaxation patterns characteristic of Western tonal music are apparent."









Sutartines, Lithuanian Multipart Songs


Sutartines (from the word sutarti - to be in concordance) is a form of polyphonic music performed by female singers in north-east Lithuania. The songs have simple melodies, with two to five pitches, and comprise two distinct parts: a meaningful main text and a refrain that may include nonce...




www.unesco.org


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## muziksculp (Apr 21, 2021)

Ian Dorsch said:


> This choir sounds like what I wish the Eric W choirs had sounded like!


You just said what I was thinking. 

I wasn't impressed with the EW Choirs, the Estonian Choirs sound is what I wanted to hear, and when I heard them in this OT library, and listened to the demos, I had a big smile on my face. Yes, this is it. Finally the type of choir sounds I like. They will surely get used.


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## Robo Rivard (Apr 21, 2021)

Instant Arvo Pärt.


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## CT (Apr 21, 2021)

I am stupid, but... you've got to pre-order to get the lower price? Once it's actually available on the 4th it's full price?


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## Toecutter (Apr 21, 2021)

The Heir demo while browsing the thread, digging the vocals, then it hit me: SAMPLES! I totally forgot I was hearing to a sample library, that's impressive.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Apr 21, 2021)

Mike T said:


> I am stupid, but... you've got to pre-order to get the lower price? Once it's actually available on the 4th it's full price?


There's usually an in-between period where it might be something like pre-order price + €50 when it first comes out. I should probably add my obligatory, "I'm not a fan of pre-orders" bit.


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## ism (Apr 21, 2021)

Ian Dorsch said:


> This choir sounds like what I wish the Eric W choirs had sounded like!




I'd argue that SF and OT complement each other spectacularly here. In that:



Spitfire Solo Strings (which I love) ... is to .... OT First Chairs (which I love)

as 

Orchestral Swarm (which I love) ... is to .... Time Macro (which I love)

as (conjecturally) 

Tundra Strings (which I love) ... will be to ... Tallin chamber string 

and 

Eric Whitacre Choir (which I love). .... will be to ... Tallin chamber choir



Each of these has their own ethos, their own artistic vision, their own space, and their own sweet spots. 


But also, with a bit of theorization of their respective sweet spots, they can really, really complement each other even within the same piece.

I've used, for instance, both Tundra col leg trato and the Time Macro col leg trato side by side in the same piece (as well as OS). And it's a classic case of the whole being more that the sum of it's parts. 


This is a great day for sample libraries. It feels like a great Tallin-shape hole in the universe (or at least, in my Logic palette) is about top be filled.


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## emilio_n (Apr 21, 2021)

Mike T said:


> I am stupid, but... you've got to pre-order to get the lower price? Once it's actually available on the 4th it's full price?


Usually, when they release the library they change the price to "introductory price", maybe something like 300€ for this library.


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## gedlig (Apr 21, 2021)

AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> Guess this doesn't contain any sutartinės or neutral second Schwebungsdiaphonie?
> 
> "The term Schwebungsdiaphonie (‘beat diaphony’) refers to two-part musical (usually vocal) styles with a lot of dissonant (beating) intervals such as seconds. In contrast to Western tonal music, the dissonant sonorities in Schwebungsdiaphonie lie at the core of their tonal structures. . . . Sutartinės are a Lithuanian type of Schwebungsdiaphonie . . . .
> 
> ...


It's going for a specifically estonian chamber sound, so there couldn't really be any sutartinės involved. Plus you'd need an extensive syllabuilder for that.


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## CT (Apr 21, 2021)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> There's usually an in-between period where it might be something like pre-order price + €50 when it first comes out. I should probably add my obligatory, "I'm not a fan of pre-orders" bit.





emilio_n said:


> Usually, when they release the library they change the price to "introductory price", maybe something like 300€ for this library.


Thanks guys. 

Ohhh, cardioid tree and omni tree both included... it gets better and better!


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## ism (Apr 21, 2021)

AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> Guess this doesn't contain any sutartinės or neutral second Schwebungsdiaphonie?
> 
> "The term Schwebungsdiaphonie (‘beat diaphony’) refers to two-part musical (usually vocal) styles with a lot of dissonant (beating) intervals such as seconds. In contrast to Western tonal music, the dissonant sonorities in Schwebungsdiaphonie lie at the core of their tonal structures. . . . Sutartinės are a Lithuanian type of Schwebungsdiaphonie . . . .
> 
> ...


cool


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## David Kudell (Apr 21, 2021)

This video is all about the choir itself and talks about their unique sound. I just love them!


----------



## Frederick (Apr 21, 2021)

This also sounds great to me as well! I guess we all have the same taste.  Considering the size and the amount of mics and instruments is there no-one else that is worried that the number of dynamic layers and/or RR will be disappointing once the library is out? Or is that info already made available?


----------



## CT (Apr 21, 2021)

Can only go by phone speakers right now, but the organ sounds beautifully recorded.


----------



## Drundfunk (Apr 21, 2021)

Now my only problem with this is, that when I saw how the library is called, I had to think about "Rainy Night in Tallinn" and that is arguably a different sound than what's offered in this library. Not sure if I ever can get rid of this connotation. Christopher Nolan truly ruins everything..... .



lp59burst said:


> Been a while since I've had to look a word up in the dictionary... well played...


You're welcome?


----------



## dcoscina (Apr 21, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> ok I'm in love, thank you OT for not wasting our time with the dumb marketing and just dropping the bomb. That's all I need to pre-order: full details, awesome demos, a fair price and your pedigree. Fucking amazing!


expletive aside, well put!


----------



## LamaRose (Apr 21, 2021)

Nice range of articulations for all of the sections... _very_ unique room/soundstage... totally sold on this one! Only downside is that damn Euro/USD exchange rate


----------



## CT (Apr 21, 2021)

Has anyone used that free Layers thing as a way to test Sine, and found it to be an accurate representation of how other Sine libraries work on your system?


----------



## jbuhler (Apr 21, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Has anyone used that free Layers thing as a way to test Sine, and found it to be an accurate representation of how other Sine libraries work on your system?


The Sine player doesn't change from library to library (the way, say, the SF one does), so yes. But other libraries generally have more functionality than Layers and the other free libraries OT offers. And I really love how Sine handles the legato and lets you apply it to most articulations.


----------



## MA-Simon (Apr 21, 2021)

Listening to the demos made me think of this. Will be a perfect fit:


----------



## OrchestralTools (Apr 21, 2021)

Mike T said:


> I am stupid, but... you've got to pre-order to get the lower price? Once it's actually available on the 4th it's full price?


Hey @Mike T,

Yes—the pre-order offer will be the lowest price available for Tallinn. And once the pre-order period is over, Tallinn will increase in price.
It will be available for download on May 5, so the pre-order offer ends May 4.

Let us know if you have any other questions.

Best,

OT


----------



## Mr Sakitumi (Apr 21, 2021)

At first I was all about listening to and focusing on the chamber strings...but then I heard the choir! Wow!

Well done @OrchestralTools 👏. I also love that you are adventurous with your recent libraries, going to places to record them, capturing the sounds where they live, rather than trying to just re-create them at Teldex.
it adds a lot of variety to the sonic OT world and that’s great for us composers.


----------



## Niah2 (Apr 21, 2021)

Oh my god I have always dreamt someone did a sample library like this ! Thank you OT.


----------



## galactic orange (Apr 21, 2021)

MA-Simon said:


> Listening to the demos made me think of this. Will be a perfect fit:



One of my favorites! (the whole soundtrack, really) I haven’t been able to listen to the Tallinn demos yet but this gets my attention.


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## Wunderhorn (Apr 21, 2021)

Beautiful Sound and concept!
Is there a list of included articulations somewhere?


----------



## Getsumen (Apr 21, 2021)

Wunderhorn said:


> Beautiful Sound and concept!
> Is there a list of included articulations somewhere?


on their website 








Tallinn


The evocative sound of a unique music culture, bridging a thousand years from the ancient to the contemporary. Tallinn features the world-famous Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir and Tallinn Chamber Orchestra plus two organs—all recorded in the iconic Niguliste church. With a pure, wintry...




www.orchestraltools.com


----------



## BenBotkin (Apr 21, 2021)

Just gonna pop in here to say...

As someone who's gotten to use Tallinn as a demo composer, it's a pretty special library. A lot of libraries feel like "meh, it's another sample library. It's OK." But this one brings some special sauce to the table. Really nice textures and sustains that are useful in MANY contexts (especially for film/tv scoring), tasty mic positions, unique strings, gorgeously deep organ sounds, and a knock-your-socks off choir that is reminiscent of the M Ark 2 choir in terms of playability and beauty but with with that Estonian flavor and a lot of clever sustain patches. The long syllable patches are gold.

For those wondering, in the demos I wrote there is a tiny amount of EQ in spots and no added reverb (just mic positions). Otherwise it's a 100% out of the box sound.


----------



## fourier (Apr 21, 2021)

@OrchestralTools : will there be a hands-on walkthrough video within the pre-order period to showcase the range of the product?


----------



## Wunderhorn (Apr 21, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> on their website
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Totally missed those tabs... Thanks!


----------



## AnhrithmonGelasma (Apr 21, 2021)

gedlig said:


> It's going for a specifically estonian chamber sound, so there couldn't really be any sutartinės involved. Plus you'd need an extensive syllabuilder for that.


The name "Baltic Voices" made me optimistic, but yeah, Estonia isn't Lithuania. Still I'm wondering if there could be any Schwebungsdiaphonie in the "atonal" choir articulations....


----------



## axb312 (Apr 21, 2021)

@OrchestralTools Pls provide some info about dynamic layers and RRs.


----------



## BenBotkin (Apr 21, 2021)

fourier said:


> @OrchestralTools : will there be a hands-on walkthrough video within the pre-order period to showcase the range of the product?


Not speaking for OT, but I might do one of my own before the May 4th window ends...


----------



## Drundfunk (Apr 21, 2021)

It truly sounds beautiful that's for sure. At the same time the choir has a lot of prominent "sss" and "shh" sounds in the demos even at parts where I'm not quite sure why... (Seraphim at 0:13 or 0:17sec for example). To me that's a little bit distracting. Is this like a signature thing of Estonian choirs? Or is it because it's sampled? Or how it's programmed? Anyone knows? I love the sound in general, but this stood out to me immediately.


----------



## fourier (Apr 21, 2021)

BenBotkin said:


> Not speaking for OT, but I might do one of my own before the May 4th window ends...


That would be very much appreciated! May the fourth be with you.


----------



## gedlig (Apr 21, 2021)

AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> The name "Baltic Voices" made me optimistic, but yeah, Estonia isn't Lithuania. Still I'm wondering if there could be any Schwebungsdiaphonie in the "atonal" choir articulations....


Yeah, that's why I have a problem with the naming, because this is purely modern chamber estonian and ethnically baltic tonal and musical traditions are very different from estonian. Also you'd use tonal articulations for sutartinės (I'm not even gonna try pronounce the german word :D). They're very much a tonal thing.

If OT went to Estonia, maybe there's a chance they'd come here also sometime and sample suitable vocals for sutartinės, and then some birbynės, kanklės, skudučiai, horns, other things.... One can only wish


----------



## CT (Apr 21, 2021)

Listening on better speakers, I still think the organs sound good. Lots of developers don't quite get it right, but this was recorded nicely.

I get that there's an obvious demand for this kind of sound in the scoring world, but I like that this doesn't feel squarely like a "cinematic tool" for those of us who might want to use it in different contexts as well.


----------



## Mr Sakitumi (Apr 21, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Listening on better speakers, I still think the organs sound good. Lots of developers don't quite get it right, but this was recorded nicely.
> 
> I get that there's an obvious demand for this kind of sound in the scoring world, but I like that this doesn't feel squarely like a "cinematic tool" for those of us who might want to use it in different contexts as well.


I really like the sound of these organs. In the demos, the (organs only) they feel pretty cinematic to me at 25sec in.

* edit, sorry I read wrong. I see what you meant there now, that they are more versatile and not just a cinematic tool. Which is great.


----------



## OrchestralTools (Apr 21, 2021)

fourier said:


> @OrchestralTools : will there be a hands-on walkthrough video within the pre-order period to showcase the range of the product?


Yes, coming soon!


----------



## OrchestralTools (Apr 21, 2021)

Mr Sakitumi said:


> I really like the sound of these organs. In the demos, the (organs only) they feel pretty cinematic to me at 25sec in.
> 
> * edit, sorry I read wrong. I see what you meant there now, that they are more versatile and not just a cinematic tool. Which is great.


The team here were raving about the organs. Someone said "You can almost hear the air in the pipes!"

Pleased that you're hearing this energy in the demos.


----------



## AnhrithmonGelasma (Apr 21, 2021)

Will the individual instruments probably be available for purchase, as with (at least) some of their other Sine Player releases?


----------



## OrchestralTools (Apr 21, 2021)

BenBotkin said:


> Not speaking for OT, but I might do one of my own before the May 4th window ends...


Hey Ben! That would be amazing. Thanks again for the demos!


----------



## OrchestralTools (Apr 21, 2021)

AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> Will the individual instruments probably be available for purchase, as with (at least) some of their other Sine Player releases?


Yes, definitely - as soon as the collection is available for download on May 5.


----------



## MA-Simon (Apr 21, 2021)

I very much like the sound and that you sampled short and long ports on this strings library. Such a versatile articulation. I hope there are at least 3rr? I am still a bit dissapointed with Phoenix only having 1rr on the plucked instruments. And because this library falls into the same price bracked, I just have to ask how many rr there are. Would be great if you listed the different vowels in the Instruments descripition for the choir also.


----------



## cola2410 (Apr 21, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey Ben! That would be amazing. Thanks again for the demos!


I would personally vote for Sascha's track (last one) because it's a wonderful theme supported by a little bit of everything from the library as I hear. 

Ironically Ben's Seraphim sounds more Whitacre to me than EWC itself.


----------



## Mr Sakitumi (Apr 21, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> The team here were raving about the organs. Someone said "You can almost hear the air in the pipes!"
> 
> Pleased that you're hearing this energy in the demos.


Btw, the behind the scenes videos and interviews etc are incredibly well done! 
All the care to details and passion of all involved in the making of this library can be felt.
You’ve created something quite special here and it shows in the videos.

I also appreciate that Hendrik didn’t feel compelled to be filmed walking in the forest and landscape 🤣🙃


----------



## Toecutter (Apr 21, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> expletive aside, well put!


lol I'm sorry, a bit too much excitement here! Great library, fair price, no marketing shenanigans, happy me XD


----------



## zilonline (Apr 21, 2021)

As a singer of the EPCC, I'm so happy to read all these appreciative and beautiful comments - thank you


----------



## Gingerbread (Apr 21, 2021)

Mr Sakitumi said:


> Btw, the behind the scenes videos and interviews etc are incredibly well done!
> All the care to details and passion of all involved in the making of this library can be felt.
> You’ve created something quite special here and it shows in the videos.
> 
> I also appreciate that Hendrik didn’t feel compelled to be filmed walking in the forest and landscape 🤣🙃


I think Sascha usually does OT's videos. Not sure if he did these ones, but he's usually the one who does them for OT.


----------



## Toecutter (Apr 21, 2021)

zilonline said:


> As a singer of the EPCC, I'm so happy to read all these appreciative and beautiful comments - thank you


We know how hard is to sample a great vocal performance, everyone involved should be proud of their remarkable work, congrats!!


----------



## kgdrum (Apr 21, 2021)

Yes this new release sounds gorgeous,am I the only person here that feels apprehensive preordering a major OT release that runs on the Sine player?
All of my Orchestral Tools purchases of libraries have been in the Kontakt format and the little time I’ve spent dabbling with the free Sine player releases hasn’t exactly lessened my trepidation with purchasing a major OT Sine based release.
When given the choice between buying a OT release that’s available on both the Sine and Kontakt platform I still will go for the Kontakt based choice even if it means I need to spend €39 later to go for the Sine version.
Are my instincts avoiding Sine misguided or out of date now?
Are most users feeling the Sine player is ready for prime time?

Thanks


----------



## jbuhler (Apr 21, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> Yes this new release sounds gorgeous,am I the only person here that feels apprehensive preordering a major OT release that runs on the Sine player?
> All of my Orchestral Tools purchases of libraries have been in the Kontakt format and the little time I’ve spent dabbling with the free Sine player releases hasn’t exactly lessened my trepidation with purchasing a major OT Sine based release.
> When given the choice between buying a OT release that’s available on both the Sine and Kontakt platform I still will go for the Kontakt based choice even if it means I need to spend €39 later to go for the Sine version.
> Are my instincts avoiding Sine misguided or out of date now?
> ...


These days there are few things I like about OT libraries in Kontakt better than OT libraries in Sine, and quite a lot of things I like better about OT libraries in Sine. Sine itself remains a little less stable than I'd like, but overall, I've stopped using the Kontakt versions and plan to archive them soon.


----------



## filipjonathan (Apr 21, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> Yes this new release sounds gorgeous,am I the only person here that feels apprehensive preordering a major OT release that runs on the Sine player?
> All of my Orchestral Tools purchases of libraries have been in the Kontakt format and the little time I’ve spent dabbling with the free Sine player releases hasn’t exactly lessened my trepidation with purchasing a major OT Sine based release.
> When given the choice between buying a OT release that’s available on both the Sine and Kontakt platform I still will go for the Kontakt based choice even if it means I need to spend €39 later to go for the Sine version.
> Are my instincts avoiding Sine misguided or out of date now?
> ...


I totally understand. I really wish they had the sample purge option cause I only have 16gb or ram so every mb is precious.


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## David Kudell (Apr 21, 2021)

zilonline said:


> As a singer of the EPCC, I'm so happy to read all these appreciative and beautiful comments - thank you


So glad to have you here! We are truly fortunate to have your amazing choir as a virtual instrument, and I hope to be able to one day have you sing on a film score of mine!


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## kgdrum (Apr 21, 2021)

While I’ve only used Sine briefly part of my trepidation with Sine even if it’s somewhat irrational is the store aspect of Sine and bring libraries into it.
I have a “purchased” (coupon) individual patch and I also recently tried to access the new Sine horn release and can’t even figure out how to access the content.
I’m sure this is mostly piliot error and my lack of familiarity with Sine and my familiarity with Kontakt but for me so far the Sine player doesn’t seem all that intuitive.


----------



## Geoff Grace (Apr 21, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> Yes this new release sounds gorgeous,am I the only person here that feels apprehensive preordering a major OT release that runs on the Sine player?
> All of my Orchestral Tools purchases of libraries have been in the Kontakt format and the little time I’ve spent dabbling with the free Sine player releases hasn’t exactly lessened my trepidation with purchasing a major OT Sine based release.
> When given the choice between buying a OT release that’s available on both the Sine and Kontakt platform I still will go for the Kontakt based choice even if it means I need to spend €39 later to go for the Sine version.
> Are my instincts avoiding Sine misguided or out of date now?
> ...


My only wish is that they'd release an AAX version, but I am able to use it in Pro Tools via a wrapper (Blue Cat's PatchWork).

Best,

Geoff


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## A minor (Apr 21, 2021)

BenBotkin said:


> Just gonna pop in here to say...
> 
> As someone who's gotten to use Tallinn as a demo composer, it's a pretty special library. A lot of libraries feel like "meh, it's another sample library. It's OK." But this one brings some special sauce to the table. Really nice textures and sustains that are useful in MANY contexts (especially for film/tv scoring), tasty mic positions, unique strings, gorgeously deep organ sounds, and a knock-your-socks off choir that is reminiscent of the M Ark 2 choir in terms of playability and beauty but with with that Estonian flavor and a lot of clever sustain patches. The long syllable patches are gold.
> 
> For those wondering, in the demos I wrote there is a tiny amount of EQ in spots and no added reverb (just mic positions). Otherwise it's a 100% out of the box sound.


Ben, I'm glad you popped in. 
The opening audio demo by you "Seraphim" is so beautiful. Also "Taiga" shows off the depth of those strings so well. Adding choir to strings just takes the two to the top of expression for me. Lovely work. I can't really express how beautiful they both sound to me. But they make me stop everything and just listen. I keep repeating them only, haven't tried listening to the many others. I might just be spoiled by your work. Keep it up.
Thank you,
Am


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## Toecutter (Apr 21, 2021)

BenBotkin said:


> As someone who's gotten to use Tallinn as a demo composer, it's a pretty special library. A lot of libraries feel like "meh, it's another sample library. It's OK." But this one brings some special sauce to the table.


great demo Ben and I agree, Tallinn is special! I heard your demos for various libraries, can you enlighten us on which libraries you find meh and spare us of the disappointment? XD


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## jbuhler (Apr 21, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> While I’ve only used Sine briefly part of my trepidation with Sine even if it’s somewhat irrational is the store aspect of Sine and bring libraries into it.
> I have a “purchased” (coupon) individual patch and I also recently tried to access the new Sine horn release and can’t even figure out how to access the content.
> I’m sure this is mostly piliot error and my lack of familiarity with Sine and my familiarity with Kontakt but for me so far the Sine player doesn’t seem all that intuitive.


It's not exactly straightforward, though it's not hard once you get the hang of it. I tend to visit the store only in the standalone version. And I tend to close down all the other Sine instances before I visit the store. Once you've purchased the library, then you go to the my licenses tab, and you download the libraries there by selecting the library, the instrument and the mics, and then selecting download. Download drives can be selected at this point, but you can only install Sine libraries at the top level of the drive. The download will generate folders for Orchestral Tools and inside that Sine Player, if they aren't already present on the drive, and then make the various folder inside that for the instrument. Once downloaded, the library will be visible in the library tab of the Sine player, and you can load the instruments from there.

For the horn first look in the my licenses tab. That's where it should be located. If you have already downloaded it then look in the library tab.


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## Instrugramm (Apr 21, 2021)

The choir seems mighty impressive indeed... may have to get this one.

Ps. Actually everything sounds awesome, I'll really have to get it, damn you OT!!!


----------



## LamaRose (Apr 21, 2021)

AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> ...Estonia isn't Lithuania... this is like saying, "Georgia isn't Alabama..." which is totally true by the way.


----------



## LamaRose (Apr 21, 2021)

Wunderhorn said:


> Totally missed those tabs... Thanks!


Mmmm... love them Tabs...


----------



## LamaRose (Apr 21, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> Yes this new release sounds gorgeous,am I the only person here that feels apprehensive preordering a major OT release that runs on the Sine player?


I see you're running OSX... Logic? One benefit is that Sine is much more CPU-friendly than Kontakt 5 or 6 on my 2015 MBP.


----------



## kgdrum (Apr 21, 2021)

LamaRose said:


> I see you're running OSX... Logic? One benefit is that Sine is much more CPU-friendly than Kontakt 5 or 6 on my 2015 MBP.


No I’m using DP at the moment but I’m very Logic curious and planning on trying Logic soon. I’m surprised you find Sine more CPU friendly,I’ve been under the impression that Sine was a more demanding library platform.
Im a bit leery of new developer based sample players from my experience it usually takes quite a while for companies to iron out the kinks.


----------



## Jett Hitt (Apr 21, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> No I’m using DP at the moment but I’m very Logic curious and planning on trying Logic soon. I’m surprised you find Sine more CPU friendly,I’ve been under the impression that Sine was a more demanding library platform.
> Im a bit leery of new developer based sample players from my experience it usually takes quite a while for companies to iron out the kinks.


I am running BSS, Berlin Special Bows I & II, and Woodwind Soloists all in SINE. I would never go back to Kontakt. I will be the first to upgrade my other Berlin libraries when they are ported to SINE. I hated Capsule. There are a few bugs in SINE, but they will be worked out in time. There is nothing I can't work around, and with this library, there will be an update to SINE. It runs much better than the Spitfire player for me.


----------



## muziksculp (Apr 21, 2021)




----------



## dzilizzi (Apr 21, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> Yes this new release sounds gorgeous,am I the only person here that feels apprehensive preordering a major OT release that runs on the Sine player?
> All of my Orchestral Tools purchases of libraries have been in the Kontakt format and the little time I’ve spent dabbling with the free Sine player releases hasn’t exactly lessened my trepidation with purchasing a major OT Sine based release.
> When given the choice between buying a OT release that’s available on both the Sine and Kontakt platform I still will go for the Kontakt based choice even if it means I need to spend €39 later to go for the Sine version.
> Are my instincts avoiding Sine misguided or out of date now?
> ...


Only problem is if you use ProTools. You will need to run Sine through something like VE Pro or Patchwork. Otherwise, it has been working fine for me in Cubase and using VE Pro. It has a nice purge function where you can purge all or just the samples you don't need


----------



## InLight-Tone (Apr 21, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> This is Fantastic !
> 
> Thanks You Very Much Orchestral Tools.
> 
> ...


Is there ANY library muziksculp won't buy???


----------



## Robo Rivard (Apr 21, 2021)

I have Special Bows 1 and 2 in Kontakt format. Since I just bought a new SSD, I think it would be the time to install the Sine version on it.


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## jbuhler (Apr 21, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> I am running BSS, Berlin Special Bows I & II, and Woodwind Soloists all in SINE. I would never go back to Kontakt. I will be the first to upgrade my other Berlin libraries when they are ported to SINE. I hated Capsule. There are a few bugs in SINE, but they will be worked out in time. There is nothing I can't work around, and with this library, there will be an update to SINE. It runs much better than the Spitfire player for me.


I’m right there with you, though I’m agnostic about the SF player. But I don’t prefer it to Kontakt. But Sine I very much prefer to Capsule in Kontakt.


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## Jett Hitt (Apr 21, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I’m right there with you, though I’m agnostic about the SF player. But I don’t prefer it to Kontakt. But Sine I very much prefer to Capsule in Kontakt.


Truth be told, I like the Spitfire player on the surface. It’s what’s going on under the hood that I don’t like. It’s a hog, and some of the AROOF patches fill up my hard drive with many gigabytes of logs.


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## kgdrum (Apr 21, 2021)

Thanks to all! I guess I’ve been out of the loop as far as Sine vs Capsule.
I seem to remember OT releasing Amber(string quartet) a year so ago, it sounded beautiful but users reported it was really demanding.
So I think that stuck in my mind,will have to explore Sine more. 
I really haven’t used the Spitfire player either,after very early attempts with company driven players like Play and Engine I have been primarily using Kontakt.
I guess I need to take off my blinders,lol 
Thanks


----------



## jbuhler (Apr 21, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> Truth be told, I like the Spitfire player on the surface. It’s what’s going on under the hood that I don’t like. It’s a hog, and some of the AROOF patches fill up my hard drive with many gigabytes of logs.


I don’t think I have the log issue but I should check. The SF Player runs about the same as Kontakt patches as far as I can tell. I dislike the way it loads patches and there are too many pages for everything: articulations, mics, etc.


----------



## jbuhler (Apr 21, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> Thanks to all! I guess I’ve been out of the loop as far as Sine vs Capsule.
> I seem to remember OT releasing Amber(string quartet) a year so ago, it sounded beautiful but users reported it was really demanding.
> So I think that stuck in my mind,will have to explore Sine more.
> I really haven’t used the Spitfire player either,after very early attempts with company driven players like Play and Engine I have been primarily using Kontakt.
> ...


I had bad issues with Amber until they released an update to Sine that fixed the issue. Currently the only issue I’m having with Sine is mic merge not working. I’m not wild about the integrated store but mostly that stays out of the way.


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## axb312 (Apr 21, 2021)

@OrchestralTools Pls provide some info about dynamic layers and RRs.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts (Apr 21, 2021)

BenBotkin said:


> Not speaking for OT, but I might do one of my own before the May 4th window ends...


I very much appreciate user-made walkthroughs before the pre-order period is over! Hugely helpful.


----------



## Jett Hitt (Apr 21, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I don’t think I have the log issue but I should check. The SF Player runs about the same as Kontakt patches as far as I can tell. I dislike the way it loads patches and there are too many pages for everything: articulations, mics, etc.


I didn’t know I had an issue until my computer informed me that my hard drive was full, and I was like WTF? I deleted more than 200 GB of Spitfire logs. The main culprit seemed to be Legendary Strings.


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## CT (Apr 21, 2021)

Finally had a chance to listen properly to everything so far. I really am very into this!

Some people here seem to buy everything that drifts by, meanwhile I've got like a few dozen libraries at most, and actually still use maybe only half of them  , so suffice it to say that it isn't often that something comes out which genuinely excites me in its concept, or doesn't disappoint me in its execution.

I am definitely excited by this concept and love hearing from the very fine musicians involved (including Arvo's son!). Like I said earlier, this is a very special aesthetic that's been commodified a bit into media music, so it's nice to have the "genuine article" so to speak. I look forward to hearing more. I should probably test SINE tonight before I go any further with the inaugural piece I'm already writing in my head....


----------



## jbuhler (Apr 21, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> I didn’t know I had an issue until my computer informed me that my hard drive was full, and I was like WTF? I deleted more than 200 GB of Spitfire logs. The main culprit seemed to be Legendary Strings.


Where do you find the logs?


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## CT (Apr 21, 2021)

Might be interesting for some of you:




And here's a neat little glimpse of Pärt in the church:


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## Instrugramm (Apr 21, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> Yes this new release sounds gorgeous,am I the only person here that feels apprehensive preordering a major OT release that runs on the Sine player?
> All of my Orchestral Tools purchases of libraries have been in the Kontakt format and the little time I’ve spent dabbling with the free Sine player releases hasn’t exactly lessened my trepidation with purchasing a major OT Sine based release.
> When given the choice between buying a OT release that’s available on both the Sine and Kontakt platform I still will go for the Kontakt based choice even if it means I need to spend €39 later to go for the Sine version.
> Are my instincts avoiding Sine misguided or out of date now?
> ...


At least on my machine Sine is a lot more unstable than even the Spitfire player for example, I feel you.


----------



## MusicalG (Apr 21, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Where do you find the logs?








Spitfire--Huge Log Files (Mac)


I was working in Logic on my Mac (Mohave) this evening when suddenly a message popped up informing me that the startup disk was almost full. I was taken by surprise because last I checked I had 256 GB of free space on this drive. After some sleuthing, I discovered that the system was taking up...




vi-control.net




just googled spitfire logs, there is a topic on here already


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## dzilizzi (Apr 21, 2021)

We really need to stop the Spitfire talk on this thread. Maybe start a discussion in the Sample Talk section?


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## MusicalG (Apr 21, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> We really need to stop the Spitfire talk on this thread. Maybe start a discussion in the Sample Talk section?


fair point


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## jbuhler (Apr 21, 2021)

I’m only at 55MB, which in the great scheme of things is a drop in the bucket, but in the context of other log folders seems very large.


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## jbuhler (Apr 21, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> We really need to stop the Spitfire talk on this thread. Maybe start a discussion in the Sample Talk section?


Yeah, a problem with engaging with my phone is that I never know which forum I’m in.


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## Jett Hitt (Apr 21, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> We really need to stop the Spitfire talk on this thread. Maybe start a discussion in the Sample Talk section?


Well in fairness, it’s hardly like anyone is saying don’t buy Tallinn ‘cause if you get Spitfire you can make your log file grow😂 I think we’re all here because we’re probably going to buy this library. I’m only waiting for walkthroughs, and if OT had said there weren’t going to be any, I’d have already ordered.


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## jbuhler (Apr 21, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> Well in fairness, it’s hardly like anyone is saying don’t buy Tallinn ‘cause if you get Spitfire you can make your log file grow😂 I think we’re all here because we’re probably going to buy this library. I’m only waiting for walkthroughs, and if OT had said there weren’t going to be any, I’d have already ordered.


Pretty much right there with you, and I haven’t preordered only because ordering the day it’s announced feels unseemly.


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## JonSolo (Apr 21, 2021)

It sounds fantastic!


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## David Kudell (Apr 21, 2021)

If you want to listen to this choir (Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir) to get inspired:


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## dzilizzi (Apr 21, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Yeah, a problem with engaging with my phone is that I never know which forum I’m in.


I have that problem a lot.


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## ism (Apr 21, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> If you want to listen to this choir (Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir) to get inspired:



Just thought to search my itunes library ... turns out that no I’ve been listening to quite a lot of the Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir for quite a long time, and I’ve also been longing for a sample library that could - even passably - pull off their sound.


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## DSmolken (Apr 21, 2021)

Seems really nice, and very contemporary indeed.

Half-serious observation: like Metropolis Ark 1's powerful low brass is perfect for trap, the long slow choir and strings with little vibrato would be perfect for witch house.


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## gedlig (Apr 21, 2021)

@LamaRose Sorry for tagging, but I think you wrote your message in the quoted part and I can't properly reply then.
This is not the same as saying Georgia isn't Alabama (unless you're talking about the actual country of Georgia (or Sakartvelo)). There's way too little differences for that to be any close to a fair comparison. This is thousands of years of cultural and linguistic differences and more a case of Poland isn't Germany, than comparing two US administrative units.


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## OrchestralTools (Apr 21, 2021)

Mr Sakitumi said:


> Btw, the behind the scenes videos and interviews etc are incredibly well done!
> All the care to details and passion of all involved in the making of this library can be felt.
> You’ve created something quite special here and it shows in the videos.
> 
> I also appreciate that Hendrik didn’t feel compelled to be filmed walking in the forest and landscape 🤣🙃


@Mr Sakitumi, thanks very much for the encouragement!

David Kudell put the videos together, and Tallinn local Madis Reimund was behind the camera.


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## Henning (Apr 22, 2021)

The demo "Where is cold" by Genevieve Vincent features some cool glissing / pitch sliding strings. Are these recorded or clever pitch wheel workings?


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## OrchestralTools (Apr 22, 2021)

axb312 said:


> @OrchestralTools Pls provide some info about dynamic layers and RRs.


Hey @axb312,

To answer your question regarding RRs and dynamic layers:

For voices: The longs have 12 RRs and two dynamics layers (_p_ and _mf_), for the short patches we have 8 RRs and two dynamic layers (_p_ and _mf_).

Let us know if you have any other questions.


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## river angler (Apr 22, 2021)

filipjonathan said:


> I totally understand. I really wish they had the sample purge option cause I only have 16gb or ram so every mb is precious.


Yes! I'm in the same boat here! ...a quick search has seen no improvement yet regarding purge in SINE. They will sort it out hopefully to behave the same way it does in Kontakt


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## Brasart (Apr 22, 2021)

I would love to be able to pre-order individual instruments at a discount price too, as I'm quite interested in the choir but not so much in the rest of the package


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## DSmolken (Apr 22, 2021)

Mike T said:


> I get that there's an obvious demand for this kind of sound in the scoring world, but I like that this doesn't feel squarely like a "cinematic tool" for those of us who might want to use it in different contexts as well.


Absolutely, sent a link to the trailer to one singer and asked if she'd want these sounds in her music. And no, she doesn't do witch house, heh. Small strings with not much vibrato and slow evolving choir textures should be great for indie pop.


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## Alex Niedt (Apr 22, 2021)

Here's an unofficial demo for anyone interested. This is the first thing I immediately made when beginning to test the alpha version. Tallinn is possibly the most inspiring library I've ever laid my hands on. It just exudes pure beauty.


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## Brasart (Apr 22, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> Here's an unofficial demo for anyone interested. This is the first thing I immediately made when beginning to test the alpha version. Tallinn is possibly the most inspiring library I've ever laid my hands on. It just exudes pure beauty.



Superb work as always Alex


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## stevenson-again (Apr 22, 2021)

Got to say...that is an epically gorgeous trailer. Sheesh. Beautifully done.


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## davidson (Apr 22, 2021)

Could be my first sine purchase which says a lot considering I'm not a fine of sine, but would still appreciate an answer regarding nks plans @OrchestralTools


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## Simon Ravn (Apr 22, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey @axb312,
> 
> To answer your question regarding RRs and dynamic layers:
> 
> ...


And for strings? Seems you are evading this - I assume that means no RR and 1-2 dynamic layers

Not that it's gonna have any influence on me pre-ordering this because it sounds so lovely and the price is very fair!


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## Kevperry777 (Apr 22, 2021)

Lovely sounding library. Very grateful to learn about this type of sound and musicians. Reminds me of the soundtrack from The OA.


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## VVEremita (Apr 22, 2021)

I have several recordings by the EPCC in my CD collection and I hold them all in high regard. Especially the 1997 recording of Arvo Pärt's Kanon Pokajanen released by ECM. It was recorded in Niguliste Church as well. It is not just one of my favorite choral pieces but one of the most cherished records in my collection.
Having these sounds "at my fingertips" (as they say) makes me, to put it simple, happy. And thankful.

A lot comes down to taste and preferences, but from my personal point of view some things were done exactly right. Individual string sections instead of a string ensemble for example. And when it comes to the choir I assume that the sampling of two groups instead of SATB helped to capture the way the sections blend in a more musical way. So I think the balance was struck just right at some points. We get the significant sound of a certain ensemble / location - true to detail and authentic. But there is still versatility and depth for writing music. It is a "concept library", but not just an "effect library".

Diaclaimer: I am one of the guys who feels like he has been waiting for exactly that library, so I am biased


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## BenBotkin (Apr 22, 2021)

Drundfunk said:


> It truly sounds beautiful that's for sure. At the same time the choir has a lot of prominent "sss" and "shh" sounds in the demos even at parts where I'm not quite sure why... (Seraphim at 0:13 or 0:17sec for example). To me that's a little bit distracting. Is this like a signature thing of Estonian choirs? Or is it because it's sampled? Or how it's programmed? Anyone knows? I love the sound in general, but this stood out to me immediately.


The non technical-reason is because I am lazy. The technical reason is that I am using the syllable long patches for much of the chords and inner voicing in these moments you point out. What is happening is that while I am holding the chord (let's say a "sah" sound is currently triggered) I am adding a moving voice with the same patch... so that "sah" on the inner voice is triggered again, and the sibillance of the "ssss" attack sticks out. If I was NOT being lazy I would have all these inner voice movements on a separate track with maybe a legato sus patch or at least something with a vowel attack instead of a consonant attack.

This is not a glitch in the sound, it's simply me trying to use the syllable long patches beyond their ideal usage (which is to play a note or chord, hold it, then release it, then play another note/chord w/a fresh syllable).


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## Drundfunk (Apr 22, 2021)

BenBotkin said:


> The non technical-reasons is because I am lazy. The technical reason is that I am using the syllable long patches for much of the chords and inner voicing in these moments you point out. What is happening is that while I am holding the chord (let's say a "sah" sound is currently triggered) I am adding a moving voice with the same patch... so that "sah" on the inner voice is appearing again, and it sticks out. If I was NOT being lazy I would have all these inner voice movements on a separate track with maybe a legato sus patch.
> 
> This is not a glitch in the sound, it's simply me trying to use the syllable long patches beyond their ideal usage (which is to play a note or chord, hold it, then release it, then play another note/chord w/a fresh syllable).


Thank you Ben! Thanks for the explanation. I have to point out that I took your demo as an example simply because it's the first demo on the page, not because I wanted to be particularly negative about it or anything. I hear the same thing in other demos as well, but I assume they simply used the same approach as you. Again, thanks for your answer. Really appreciate it.


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## ka00 (Apr 22, 2021)

Hey @OrchestralTools, not a big deal, but on your audio demos page, I would love to just be able to listen to all your audio demos for a given library back to back, like a playlist instead of just looping one demo over and over. Not sure if others agree. Just a thought.

Thanks and looking forward to a walk through for this lovely library.


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## VVEremita (Apr 22, 2021)

ka00 said:


> Hey @OrchestralTools, not a big deal, but on your audio demos page, I would love to just be able to listen to all your audio demos for a given library back to back, like a playlist instead of just looping one demo over and over. Not sure if others agree. Just a thought.
> 
> Thanks and looking forward to a walk through for this lovely library.


 I was thinking the same!


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## fourier (Apr 22, 2021)

VVEremita said:


> I was thinking the same!


Third! I was expecting it to work as a playlist and it caught me by surprise when the first song just started over again. Strangely comforting to know I wasn't alone in this sentiment.


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## Mr Sakitumi (Apr 22, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> @Mr Sakitumi, thanks very much for the encouragement!
> 
> David Kudell put the videos together, and Tallinn local Madis Reimund was behind the camera.


Thanks for the IMDB on that @OrchestralTools 

Lovely work on these videos @David Kudell and Madis Reimund 🙌


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## David Kudell (Apr 22, 2021)

Mr Sakitumi said:


> Thanks for the IMDB on that @OrchestralTools
> 
> Lovely work on these videos @David Kudell and Madis Reimund 🙌


Thank you, with such beautiful footage it made my job easy.


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## Banquet (Apr 22, 2021)

Perhaps I'm just feeling grumpy tonight but I wish OT could actually post a working link. And I'm not big on having to pay up front before people with far more talent and skill than me (aka, you lot) get a chance to voice your opinion of it. Intro price = great.... Pre-order = wot u scared we'll find?

Anyway, it sounds lovely but so far my grumpy sensible side is successfully performing 'whack - a -mole' on my gassing alter-ego...


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## jbuhler (Apr 22, 2021)

Banquet said:


> Perhaps I'm just feeling grumpy tonight but I wish OT could actually post a working link. And I'm not big on having to pay up front before people with far more talent and skill than me (aka, you lot) get a chance to voice your opinion of it. Intro price = great.... Pre-order = wot u scared we'll find?
> 
> Anyway, it sounds lovely but so far my grumpy sensible side is successfully performing 'whack - a -mole' on my gassing alter-ego...


This is the OT way and it has been basically this way as long as I can remember. BSS was an exception. And this time we're getting a lot more content before the release date than we sometimes do. But there is not yet a walkthrough as far as I know.


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## jsnleo (Apr 22, 2021)

Simon Ravn said:


> And for strings? Seems you are evading this - I assume that means no RR and 1-2 dynamic layers
> 
> Not that it's gonna have any influence on me pre-ordering this because it sounds so lovely and the price is very fair!


I’m gonna preorder it anyway but I did notice some of their libs lack RRs and dynamic layers. I preordered Phoenix and LA Sessions but haven’t dived into them because of that.


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## wst3 (Apr 22, 2021)

I'm probably going to pre-order, it really does sound lovely.

I didn't pre-order LA Sessions, but it is an amazingly cool library. I predict much fun in your future!


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## OrchestralTools (Apr 23, 2021)

Simon Ravn said:


> And for strings? Seems you are evading this - I assume that means no RR and 1-2 dynamic layers
> 
> Not that it's gonna have any influence on me pre-ordering this because it sounds so lovely and the price is very fair!


@Simon Ravn The strings also have 2 dynamic layers but with RRs it depends on the articulation, for e.g. Portato = 2RRs, Staccato = 4 RRs.

Let us know if you have any other questions.


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## msjdowner (Apr 23, 2021)

Hi @OrchestralTools - we know the full price after pre-order finishes (399 Euros), but can we be informed off the prices of the individual instruments before the pre-order finishes? That would help make a decision as to whether it's worth pre-ordering all of it, or just wait for the choir to be available.


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## Maximvs (Apr 23, 2021)

I have been following the Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir and Tallinn Chamber Orchestra for a long time and love very much their sound and artistry... When I saw that OT released a library featuring these two stunning ensemble I was very exited.

After further investigation I have noticed that the inconsistency of articulation among the string sections is something I really don't like and wonder why in heaven OT has gone all the way to sample the stunning Tallinn Chamber Orchestra and decided to cut corners by not providing the same articulations for all the string sections, this is beyond my understanding... For this fact I have decided not to pre-order this library. 

Blessings, Max T.


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## fourier (Apr 23, 2021)

Maximvs said:


> (..)After further investigation I have noticed that the inconsistency of articulation among the string sections is something I really don't like (..)


Would you care to elaborate on what these inconsistencies are to us less informed?


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## AudioLoco (Apr 23, 2021)

Daaaaamn you OT!!!
It sounds incredible, especially the choir.
Something a bit different... Excellent stuff.


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## ism (Apr 23, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> Thank you, with such beautiful footage it made my job easy.



It's really quite breathtaking start to finish.


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## VVEremita (Apr 23, 2021)

fourier said:


> Would you care to elaborate on what these inconsistencies are to us less informed?


 I think he is referring to articulations that are not available in all strings sections. For example: The viola section has "Fragile longs sul pont" and "Fragile longs sul tasto", the Celli have "Fragile longs sul tasto" but no "Fragile longs sul pont" while the Violins have neither "Fragile long" articulation.


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## Evans (Apr 23, 2021)

VVEremita said:


> I think he is referring to articulations that are not available in all strings sections. For example: The viola section has "Fragile longs sul pont" and "Fragile longs sul tasto", the Celli have "Fragile longs sul tasto" but no "Fragile longs sul pont" while the Violins have neither "Fragile long" articulation.


Hopefully, there's a logical reason. Either way, I'm willing to pay the intro price. Perhaps if all these techniques existed, it would be priced accordingly.


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## Jett Hitt (Apr 23, 2021)

VVEremita said:


> I think he is referring to articulations that are not available in all strings sections. For example: The viola section has "Fragile longs sul pont" and "Fragile longs sul tasto", the Celli have "Fragile longs sul tasto" but no "Fragile longs sul pont" while the Violins have neither "Fragile long" articulation.





fourier said:


> Would you care to elaborate on what these inconsistencies are to us less informed?


There are some curious inconsistencies through the library. The women have two legatos, while the men have only one. The men have wide longs, but the women don't. There seems to be a decided dearth of shorts and very limited dynamics as well. Listening to the demos, I notice a rather narrow dynamic field throughout all of the examples. So I worry about the versatility of this library. None of this will stop me from buying it, but these are things I think about when considering a library.


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## VVEremita (Apr 23, 2021)

I would be really curious to know more about the decision-making process which leads to a certain sample content, but as these questions often remain unanswered it could be a trade secret. I personally would pay more to have all articulations across all sections, but others wouldn't. It could come down to a glass half empty / half full scenario. I trust that compromises are not made out of negligence. I am still looking forward to it very much.

The dynamic layers don't bother me too much. I think 2 layers is quite alright, as the library aims at a certain sound and emotion which is meant to be presented in quieter dynamics. I personally prefer it to get this devotional and calm sound just right. Of course I would take any grading between ppp and mf


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## Evans (Apr 23, 2021)

VVEremita said:


> I think 2 layers is quite alright, as the library aims at a certain sound and emotion which is meant to be presented in quieter dynamics.


My harmonics patches need to have at least six dynamic layers.


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## VVEremita (Apr 23, 2021)

Evans said:


> My harmonics patches need to have at least six dynamic layers.


Anything below that is Kontakt Factory


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## David Kudell (Apr 23, 2021)

VVEremita said:


> Anything below that is Kontakt Factory


Only p and mf? Where's my fff? I was really hoping this would replace Metropolis Ark 1!


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## BenBotkin (Apr 23, 2021)

Alright folks, I've got a long (hour plus) library review/patch walkthrough for you to take a look at! Hopefully this answers some questions and gives you some added insight into the product before the pre-order window expires.

Seraphim Playthrough 1:09
I talk for a bit 2:46
I review the FX added to the track (almost none) 7:00
Mic positions overview 8:14
Patch walkthrough begins about here (Choirs)14:33
Seraphim: Choirs only 20:34
I play hymns with the Organ 25:50
Strings patches 30:53
LOTR joke 36:38
Fast writing attempts 40:30
Seraphim: Strings only 55:40
Closing thoughts/library assessment 57:30


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## Jett Hitt (Apr 23, 2021)

BenBotkin said:


> Alright folks, I've got a long (hour plus) library review/patch walkthrough for you to take a look at! Hopefully this answers some questions and gives you some added insight into the product before the pre-order window expires.
> 
> Seraphim Playthrough 1:09
> I talk for a bit 2:46
> ...



Thank you for doing this. This is truly a beautiful library, and I will most certainly buy it.

Having said that, however, there are some serious caveats for a concert composer. I noticed that the low note in the men is F2, which is rather limiting for SATB writing. The range in the females went to A5, which is limited, though more acceptable, but then when changing to a different patch, that A5 changed to G5. The other caveat to me is that while this will be incredible for slow-moving music, if you have a fast section in a piece, you're going to have to find another choral library that matches this one in timbre. I may change my mind once I have worked with it, but these are the red flags I see from a birdseye view. This library has the potential to be one of those like Tina Guo where it sounds amazing if you write the music to the library but is less appealing if you try to fit existing music to the library.


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## CT (Apr 23, 2021)

BenBotkin said:


> Alright folks, I've got a long (hour plus) library review/patch walkthrough for you to take a look at! Hopefully this answers some questions and gives you some added insight into the product before the pre-order window expires.
> 
> Seraphim Playthrough 1:09
> I talk for a bit 2:46
> ...



Thanks for taking the time to make this video, Ben. It's a very nice look at what this library is capable of.

I agree that this seems to be a "special" thing in which a genuinely unique musicality has been captured. I think this is the first library I've come across that actually has the natural sort of ambience that I often try to fake. The surround mics on the choir are pretty stunning... and the organs really have been recorded impeccably.


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 23, 2021)

Individual sections available? How is Sine working in VE Pro?
sounds nice!


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## BenBotkin (Apr 23, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> Thank you for doing this. This is truly a beautiful library, and I will most certainly buy it.
> 
> Having said that, however, there are some serious caveats for a concert composer. I noticed that the low note in the men is F2, which is rather limiting for SATB writing. The range in the females went to A5, which is limited, though more acceptable, but then when changing to a different patch, that A5 changed to G5. The other caveat to me is that while this will be incredible for slow-moving music, if you have a fast section in a piece, you're going to have to find another choral library that matches this one in timbre. I may change my mind once I have worked with it, but these are the red flags I see from a birdseye view. This library has the potential to be one of those like Tina Guo where it sounds amazing if you write the music to the library but is less appealing if you try to fit existing music to the library.


Yeah, the scope of the library is somewhat limited. Individual creativity can likely stretch those limits in surprising ways, but best results will come from those that embrace the strengths/scope of this library, which is... slow. Beautiful. Roomy. It is a specialized tool.

If someone is looking for a more bread-and-butter do-everything-you-need-it-to library then there are string and choir options that are better for that.

Basically, one way to look at it is this: if you were in the church building this music was recorded in (Niguliste museum/church), what style of music would you write for that space? That is the music you can make with this library. (And maybe a little beyond that, too.)


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## David Kudell (Apr 23, 2021)

BenBotkin said:


> Yeah, the scope of the library is somewhat limited. Individual creativity can likely stretch those limits in surprising ways, but best results will come from those that embrace the strengths/scope of this library, which is... slow. Beautiful. Roomy. It is a specialized tool.
> 
> If someone is looking for a more bread-and-butter do-everything-you-need-it-to library then there are string and choir options that are better for that.
> 
> Basically, one way to look at it is this: if you were in the church building this music was recorded in (Niguliste museum/church), what style of music would you write for that space? That is the music you can make with this library. (And maybe a little beyond that, too.)


This!

And beyond its capabilities in writing this style of music, the library is (as Hendrik says) perfect for underscoring. Hold down a note or two with one of the dynamic waves, soft sustains, or fragile longs patches and you have a wonderful background texture. This is actually exactly what I did for my track which is at the beginning of the making of video. It’s just there to sit under the dialog.

There are other libraries that can do something similar but the sound of this church is special, especially if you’re brave enough to use the Omni mics.

I also like separate instrument groups - violins, viola, cello, basses...as opposed to “high strings” and “low strings.”

Oh and the choir ain’t bad either. 😉


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## davidson (Apr 23, 2021)

BenBotkin said:


> Alright folks, I've got a long (hour plus) library review/patch walkthrough for you to take a look at! Hopefully this answers some questions and gives you some added insight into the product before the pre-order window expires.
> 
> Seraphim Playthrough 1:09
> I talk for a bit 2:46
> ...



Thank you for the video, and thanks for not being scared to point out any issues.


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## river angler (Apr 23, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> ...This library has the potential to be one of those like Tina Guo where it sounds amazing if you write the music to the library but is less appealing if you try to fit existing music to the library.


I understand where you're coming from here but I think any library can be used creatively and find itself marrying in ways you would never have imagined if one has the will to explore both harmonically and texturally. Wonderful things happen if one keeps ones mind and imagination open to trying new things.


BenBotkin said:


> Yeah, the scope of the library is somewhat limited. Individual creativity can likely stretch those limits in surprising ways, but best results will come from those that embrace the strengths/scope of this library, which is... slow. Beautiful. Roomy. It is a specialized tool.
> 
> If someone is looking for a more bread-and-butter do-everything-you-need-it-to library then there are string and choir options that are better for that.
> 
> Basically, one way to look at it is this: if you were in the church building this music was recorded in (Niguliste museum/church), what style of music would you write for that space? That is the music you can make with this library. (And maybe a little beyond that, too.)


Yes! This certainly isn't a "bread and butter" orchestral library but to my ears and viewing the articulation listing it is pure land/sky & seascape underscore heaven and actually could be used within main score in the right context.
I also see it being used very well under dialogue in poignant, delicate drama scenes particularly.

As far as 'the space" is concerned, one won't know how dominating the baked in ambience is (including the close mikes) to influence the way one uses this library until one actually starts trying it with less traditional or diverse content. However as I eluded to with the comment at the top of this post my guess is that it could lend itself to more than just the kind of music that it's space naturally sits well with.

P.S. Thanks very much for posting the video by the way! Much appreciated!


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## pcohen12 (Apr 23, 2021)

Yes - thank you so much for putting that together, @BenBotkin. And the fact that your demo track is so wonderfully composed is just icing on the cake!



msjdowner said:


> Hi @OrchestralTools - we know the full price after pre-order finishes (399 Euros), but can we be informed off the prices of the individual instruments before the pre-order finishes? That would help make a decision as to whether it's worth pre-ordering all of it, or just wait for the choir to be available.


I second this - any way we can get an idea of a la carte prices before the pre-order period ends, @OrchestralTools ?


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## CT (Apr 23, 2021)

I am testing SINE tonight. Fingers crossed....


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## Jackdaw (Apr 23, 2021)

Because I'm not even pretending to create mockups or "realistic" sounding things, just plain cinematicish stuff I'm not at all afraid how this could "blend" (I hate that word) with other libraries or genres, how much baked in room sound there is etc. Honestly after listening to these demos my brain very quickly started thinking that I could use this with ARKs, Tarilontes and even Damage 2 and all things between. It's not gonna be Pärt-like music of course, but I can easily see myself doing all kinds of weird stuff with this. Another story is that is anyone else but me willing to listen to those compositions. Such is life of hobbyist 

I think I will have to pull the trigger tonight as long as I have any room left in my credit card... long live weird stuff!


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## Maximvs (Apr 24, 2021)

VVEremita said:


> I think he is referring to articulations that are not available in all strings sections. For example: The viola section has "Fragile longs sul pont" and "Fragile longs sul tasto", the Celli have "Fragile longs sul tasto" but no "Fragile longs sul pont" while the Violins have neither "Fragile long" articulation.


Thank you VVEremitas for stepping in, this is exactly what I was referring to!

Best, Max


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## Maximvs (Apr 24, 2021)

Evans said:


> Hopefully, there's a logical reason. Either way, I'm willing to pay the intro price. Perhaps if all these techniques existed, it would be priced accordingly.


I am sorry to say that for me there is no logical reason aside for cutting corners... The library sounds great but I am not going to invest on it... Enjoy it anyhow.

Best,

Max


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## AudioLoco (Apr 24, 2021)

Is the choir alone going to be available a la carte later on as a separate product?


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## Flyo (Apr 24, 2021)

@OrchestralTools Hello, how many Vowels can sing the choir on Longs and short? The walktrough are coming before the pre order sale? Thanks


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## Donny Grace (Apr 24, 2021)

Jackdaw said:


> Because I'm not even pretending to create mockups or "realistic" sounding things, just plain cinematicish stuff I'm not at all afraid how this could "blend" (I hate that word) with other libraries or genres, how much baked in room sound there is etc. Honestly after listening to these demos my brain very quickly started thinking that I could use this with ARKs, Tarilontes and even Damage 2 and all things between. It's not gonna be Pärt-like music of course, but I can easily see myself doing all kinds of weird stuff with this. Another story is that is anyone else but me willing to listen to those compositions. Such is life of hobbyist
> 
> I think I will have to pull the trigger tonight as long as I have any room left in my credit card... long live weird stuff!


Quite honestly I even look for usage in pop music with such libraries as this. I can envision some really good BGVs with these seemingly more smooth vocals which seem to be less "church choir" sounding than many of the choir libraries. Similar for the smooth strings.


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## Joulupukki (Apr 24, 2021)

Okay anyway, Sine is still a game stopper for me.


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## CT (Apr 24, 2021)

Hmm, not only does SINE work for me (I have had dumbly good luck with new players considering my computer's age), it's actually quite pleasant to use! I remain a supporter of developers moving away from Kontakt. 

The free "Layers" library is pretty cool too. Useful to have a collection of chords with genuine live blend and intonation.

Guess it's time to pre-order... and look at other stuff now that I know it'll work for me....


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## jbuhler (Apr 24, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Hmm, not only does SINE work for me (I have had dumbly good luck with new players considering my computer's age), it's actually quite pleasant to use! I remain a supporter of developers moving away from Kontakt.
> 
> The free "Layers" library is pretty cool too. Useful to have a collection of chords with genuine live blend and intonation.
> 
> Guess it's time to pre-order... and look at other stuff now that I know it'll work for me....


I‘m rather fond of Sine myself, and I’ve had issues. When I bought Amber i had all sorts of problems, and even today mic merge isn’t working and Sine doesn’t load correctly into some Logic projects on start up, requiring me to disable the plugin before closing so that Logic doesn’t hang. But even given these difficulties, I still much prefer OT libraries in Sine.


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## CT (Apr 24, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I‘m rather fond of Sine myself, and I’ve had issues. When I bought Amber i had all sorts of problems, and even today mic merge isn’t working and Sine doesn’t load correctly into some Logic projects on start up, requiring me to disable the plugin before closing so that Logic doesn’t hang. But even given these difficulties, I still much prefer OT libraries in Sine.


Thanks for the heads up. I'm definitely on the lookout for any issues.


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## Jett Hitt (Apr 24, 2021)

+1 for SINE. I like it.


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## ProfoundSilence (Apr 24, 2021)

I'm trying to talk myself at a buying the whole thing, I would really like the organ, but I feel like if I ever want the choir it'll probably make more sense to just pre-order it now. 

Oh well I've got like 10 days to decide.


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## Kony (Apr 24, 2021)

I've been waiting for a library to force me into using SINE - looks like this is the one. Pre-order makes sense - the price won't be this low again for years.


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## Jackdaw (Apr 24, 2021)

I've heard so much stories about problems with Sine. Honestly I have not encountered one, much more stable than Kontakt for me. Both with my desktop and laptop. I must be lucky. Both windows machines.

And btw, already bit the bulllet with Tallinn. Poor me and my credit card :(


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## Jett Hitt (Apr 24, 2021)

I’ve only been using Sine for about three months, and it has been pretty painless. I’m not really sure what all the drama is about. The mic merge feature isn’t working on BSS yet, and there is an issue with the Omni setting on BWW Soloists, but really nothing crippling. It’s a breath of fresh air compared to Capsule in Kontakt And for the record, I’m using it in Logic.


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## ProfoundSilence (Apr 24, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> I’ve only been using Sine for about three months, and it has been pretty painless. I’m not really sure what all the drama is about. The mic merge feature isn’t working on BSS yet, and there is an issue with the Omni setting on BWW Soloists, but really nothing crippling. It’s a breath of fresh air compared to Capsule in Kontakt And for the record, I’m using it in Logic.



Unfortunately with so many different systems It might come down to luck, although there is certainly a pattern starting early on with how people actually use these things. 

A great example would be that when I load something it's already loaded before I start playing, I'm just used to this - and I behave this way without having to think about it...

That said there are a lot of other people out there that just start hitting keys as soon as they press load, and I feel like some of those people encountered plenty of memory issues and crashes that I never would have experienced simply because I don't use the software that way. 

Other way I love it, I just want some of my midi cc automation back, and hopefully the option to add empty articulation slots.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 24, 2021)

The GAS part of me really wants this. The logical part of me says you have a whole lot of choirs you never use and you don't need any more string libraries. 

But that organ. Does anyone know if it can do fast or just slow?


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## CT (Apr 24, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> But that organ. Does anyone know if it can do fast or just slow?


The more generous the acoustic, the less clarity of rapid figures you'll have, but that can be a very cool effect. This particular church isn't massive, so I think with the mic options you'd be able to slim the sound down enough for fast passages to be as clear as you want.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 24, 2021)

Mike T said:


> The more generous the acoustic, the less clarity of rapid figures you'll have, but that can be a very cool effect. This particular church isn't massive, so I think with the mic options you'd be able to slim the sound down enough for fast passages to be as clear as you want.


So then it is buy it all or just wait and get the organ. Kind of curious about the cost of the organ alone once it comes out vs. the full thing at presale. Hard to make decisions without knowing this.


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## ProfoundSilence (Apr 24, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> So then it is buy it all or just wait and get the organ. Kind of curious about the cost of the organ alone once it comes out vs. the full thing at presale. Hard to make decisions without knowing this.


This is where I am at, but what's probably going to happen is that I would look at the organ in the walk-through and decide if I would pay 200 bucks for it, cuz I probably would, and if I would I'm basically getting the entire rest of the library for chump change. 

I own both symphonic organs and Union chapel Organ from spitfire, as well as plenty of others like toccata. 

I saw a short clip from Ben playing and I about died and that was just on my cell phone.


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## ProfoundSilence (Apr 24, 2021)

revisited on my PC at home, ugg lol. 

Guess it's back to ramen for me.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 24, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> This is where I am at, but what's probably going to happen is that I would look at the organ in the walk-through and decide if I would pay 200 bucks for it, cuz I probably would, and if I would I'm basically getting the entire rest of the library for chump change.
> 
> I own both symphonic organs and Union chapel Organ from spitfire, as well as plenty of others like toccata.
> 
> I saw a short clip from Ben playing and I about died and that was just on my cell phone.


Based on the broken down prices on the other libraries, 200 euros may be low. generally, the total of all the sections are 1.4 times the total price of the library at full price. LA Sessions totals to 638 euros - though I think they will give a finish the product price. Special Bows I is 294 vs 210. First Chairs are 420 vs 299. 

So, yes, based on what I am seeing, the presale price is probably a good deal, even if just for the organs.


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## jbuhler (Apr 24, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> The GAS part of me really wants this. The logical part of me says you have a whole lot of choirs you never use and you don't need any more string libraries.
> 
> But that organ. Does anyone know if it can do fast or just slow?


You can never have too many string libraries or choirs, in the latter case especially if you never use them. I'm pretty sure we collect choirs so we don't have to use them. Isn't that their whole purpose? 

In reality, choirs are often difficult to use. OT choirs sound good and are some of the easiest to use, so there's that.


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## jbuhler (Apr 24, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> revisited on my PC at home, ugg lol.
> 
> Guess it's back to ramen for me.


Ramen is good for the soul.


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## ProfoundSilence (Apr 24, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> You can never have too many string libraries or choirs, in the latter case especially if you never use them. I'm pretty sure we collect choirs so we don't have to use them. Isn't that their whole purpose?
> 
> In reality, choirs are often difficult to use. OT choirs sound good and are some of the easiest to use, so there's that.


I think people overthink it, but it's not something we hear as often due to the scope of having both an orchestra AND a choir on the same stage is a bit unruly.

I mentioned it one time - about vowels having a large impact in the timre, but generally - if you'd use flutes for chords, try altos/sopranos instead... flutes kind of sound like an "ooo" vowel with the upper overtones of an "ah" vowel... so using this to shape the phrase is a little more interesting than just flutes.

View attachment ChoirVowels3.mp3


that was the example I gave last time, it's a great way to change the way the entire phrase feels, while using the same instrument. 


if you were going to have some mid/upper chords on bassoon - have some dudes sing some vowels instead. - mens for instance, quiet mmms might be a great alternative for piano trombone hymns.

I might not be good at orchestration yet, but I suppose from the perspective of someone who loved to sing ensemble music - I feel like the voice is flexible enough to reinforce the orchestra in a way that shapes it.


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## jbuhler (Apr 24, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I think people overthink it, but it's not something we hear as often due to the scope of having both an orchestra AND a choir on the same stage is a bit unruly.
> 
> I mentioned it one time - about vowels having a large impact in the timre, but generally - if you'd use flutes for chords, try altos/sopranos instead... flutes kind of sound like an "ooo" vowel with the upper overtones of an "ah" vowel... so using this to shape the phrase is a little more interesting than just flutes.
> 
> ...


What's difficult about most choir libraries is that they require multiple tracks for single parts. This is similar to the one track one articulation issue of it being harder to make coherent lines with mixed articulations when you are having to jump constantly from one track to the next for the same part. But there are also many more syllables than almost any instrument has articulations. It's especially awkward with texts, and you need so many instances of Dominus, say, to do even a fairly simple text setting. Oos and ahs are easier to handle, but vowels are, as you imply, sort of like longs of different instruments. The EWC choir, which is to my mind an instrumentally oriented oo and ah choir, is still not the easiest choir to use, even though I very much like it. By comparison, the OT choirs are, almost all of them, quite easy to use.


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## OrchestralTools (Apr 25, 2021)

Maximvs said:


> I have been following the Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir and Tallinn Chamber Orchestra for a long time and love very much their sound and artistry... When I saw that OT released a library featuring these two stunning ensemble I was very exited.
> 
> After further investigation I have noticed that the inconsistency of articulation among the string sections is something I really don't like and wonder why in heaven OT has gone all the way to sample the stunning Tallinn Chamber Orchestra and decided to cut corners by not providing the same articulations for all the string sections, this is beyond my understanding... For this fact I have decided not to pre-order this library.
> 
> Blessings, Max T.


Hey @Maximvs,

The main and most important articulations are consistent between the sections. Please consider things such as the fragile sustains as additional colors, we recorded these with a very particular sound on that certain instrument in mind. You will not feel any obstacles not having those for all the instruments.


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## Maximvs (Apr 25, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey @Maximvs,
> 
> The main and most important articulations are consistent between the sections. Please consider things such as the fragile sustains as additional colors, we recorded these with a very particular sound on that certain instrument in mind. You will not feel any obstacles not having those for all the instruments.


Thanks for your kind reply...

Let me first say that the library sounds very nice and my previous comments were not meant to bash your work but to point out a trend that at times I see in your library (articulation inconsistency).

I partly agree with what you have said but not totally convinced that the missing articulations for example in the violin section are not important. It all depend what was your main intention in the first place when creating this library, if consistency among articulation was not the main focus, so be it... I much prefer libraries that offer a consistent articulation set across all sections, but I may be just an isolated case...

Cheers, Max T.


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## ism (Apr 25, 2021)

Maybe the way to appreciate the artic list here is to note how consistent a core set of articulations are, and then consider the extra articulations more like a Time Macro-lie selection of textural articulations, which naturaly will vary by instruments. 

In fact, this is a big appeal to me - the combination of the solid, consistent, classical core articulations, combined with crazy-beautiful TM-like textures - and within the same library.

You could make this more consistent (a la CSS) by jetisoning the textural patches. But this would a terrible, terrible loss to me.


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## rrichard63 (Apr 25, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> So then it is buy it all or just wait and get the organ. Kind of curious about the cost of the organ alone once it comes out vs. the full thing at presale. Hard to make decisions without knowing this.


This question has been asked several times about various instruments. So I can't help but notice that, although OT has been participating in this thread, they have not responded. It's possible that they don't know yet and are too busy to put everything else aside right now to figure it out. If so, it would be helpful to say that.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 25, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Ramen is good for the soul.


Nongshim? Yes please.


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## jbuhler (Apr 25, 2021)

rrichard63 said:


> This question has been asked several times about various instruments. So I can't help but notice that, although OT has been participating in this thread, they have not responded. It's possible that they don't know yet and are too busy to put everything else aside right now to figure it out. If so, it would be helpful to say that.


Or they are simply disinclined to give out this information yet—they want us thinking about the library not haggling over price—and know that saying anything will result in people complaining that the individual instruments aren’t being offered at the sale price, why do they cost collectively so much more than the bundle, why is this instrument priced so high, etc.


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## Jett Hitt (Apr 25, 2021)

rrichard63 said:


> This question has been asked several times about various instruments. So I can't help but notice that, although OT has been participating in this thread, they have not responded. It's possible that they don't know yet and are too busy to put everything else aside right now to figure it out. If so, it would be helpful to say that.


It is mostly not hard to take an educated guess. @dzilizzi broke it down above. Take the regular price of the library (399€) and divide by the number of patches (12)= 33.25. Now multiply by 1.4 = 46.55. Now consider that OT will perceive some of these patches as having more value than others and price them accordingly, i.e. the main organ will likely be more than the choir organ. I would expect something like 56€ vs. 36€. Now consider that each organ has three patches. I would guess that you are looking at 170€ for the main organ. You can probably pick up the whole choir for 120€. The moral of the story is that if you want more than one element of this library, buy now.


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## ism (Apr 25, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> You can probably pick up the whole choir for 120€.


Less optimistic calculation: the choirs are - conceptually - a third of the library. 

So (399 * 1.4) * 1/3 ~ 186€ for just the choirs. I'd be shocked if these were in the 50€ range.




jbuhler said:


> Or they are simply disinclined to give out this information yet—they want us thinking about the library not haggling over price—and know that saying anything will result in people complaining that the individual instruments aren’t being offered at the sale price, why do they cost collectively so much more than the bundle, why is this instrument priced so high, etc.



That's the most generous possible interpretation. But while I suppose intro pricing does genuinely rewards faith in the the company, it's also a kind of "luck dip" marketing. And the one time "act-now-or-you-will-loose!" pre-order pricing also manufactures a sense of urgency to drive a purchasing decision, in the absence of full information. 

Marketing quibbles aside, even before @BenBotkin 's excellent walkthrough, there's just no way I could ever not buy this library. 

And I have zero concerns about being disappointed. 

And I love the consistency of the articulations.

And I love the inconsistent articulations. 

How many more days is it until release now?


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## ProfoundSilence (Apr 25, 2021)

I would say the organs would be the cheapest third of the library, considering they require way less sampling. 

There are no legato transitions - the other two sections require both dynamic layers and round robins. 

Organ on the other hand takes a fraction of that to sample.

But again, like modus - if I would have bought it for the choirs, buying it at the pre order costs a little more but you get the entire rest of the library.


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## Jett Hitt (Apr 25, 2021)

ism said:


> Less optimistic calculation: the choirs are - conceptually - a third of the library.
> 
> So (399 * 1.4) * 1/3 ~ 186€ for just the choirs. I'd be shocked if these were in the 50€ range.


Ugh, you might well be right. It won't affect me, since I will buy the whole library at the intro price. It is the only way to buy OT libraries if you at all can.




ism said:


> And I have zero concerns about being disappointed.


I have complete faith in OT, which is not something that I can say about any other company. 90% of what I have from them works beautifully.


ProfoundSilence said:


> I would say the organs would be the cheapest third of the library, considering they require way less sampling.
> 
> There are no legato transitions - the other two sections require both dynamic layers and round robins.
> 
> Organ on the other hand takes a fraction of that to sample.


This is sound reasoning. I figured that OT would note the interest in the organ and price it accordingly.


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## fourier (Apr 25, 2021)

I haven't followed this thread in detail, but with all this discussion you'd almost think that there's but a matter of time before someone kickstarts a loopcloud-esque type of approach where you can buy certain instrument articulations across different libraries for a lump sum, or subscribe to usage in its entirety - the latter clearly the EW approach.

In terms of testing and sorting out that jungle of libraries and sounds out there, it would be attractive, as I always tend to demo any software I buy, if it comes with a significant price tag - but this isn't possible with any major orchestral libraries, as far as I know.


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## Braveheart (Apr 25, 2021)

I wouldn’t be surprised that they price the individual instruments in a way to make you regret not buying it all at pre-order price.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 25, 2021)

Braveheart said:


> I wouldn’t be surprised that they price the individual instruments in a way to make you regret not buying it all at pre-order price.


That's kind of what I was thinking. I will probably get it just for the organ. Not saying anything bad about the rest, just not as usable for me right now. 

Going through the pricing, I just remembered I picked up the LA Strings section and never downloaded it. (I was reconfiguring my computers for a master-slave setup at the time. I think there was a coupon code involved)


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## Michel Simons (Apr 25, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I would say the organs would be the cheapest third of the library, considering they require way less sampling.
> 
> There are no legato transitions - the other two sections require both dynamic layers and round robins.
> 
> ...


What? No legatos for the organs??  

To be honest I wasn't even looking for a library like this, but then I made the mistake to watch Ben's video...


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## CT (Apr 25, 2021)

Organs should have round robins though, at least two or three! But I'm sure I'm the only one who cares about that.


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## ism (Apr 25, 2021)

Braveheart said:


> I wouldn’t be surprised that they price the individual instruments in a way to make you regret not buying it all at pre-order price.



Or if they just made it so great that you regret not buying it.


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## jbuhler (Apr 25, 2021)

ism said:


> Less optimistic calculation: the choirs are - conceptually - a third of the library.
> 
> So (399 * 1.4) * 1/3 ~ 186€ for just the choirs. I'd be shocked if these were in the 50€ range.
> 
> ...


Yes, I certainly don’t think OT is withholding the prices of the individual instruments for our benefit. It’s a decision of what’s in the interest of the company. And, yes, for whatever purpose they want us to develop a habit of buying before there is full information available. In its own way it’s similar to saturation booking common with exploitation cinema, in that case the idea being to get the films into the theater and in front of audiences before the reviews hit. That strategy maximized the ad campaign’s effectiveness before it could be tempered by reviews. There’s something of that with OT and their slick video trailers and lack of walkthroughs that encourage us to go with the feeling we get from trailer, demos, and other videos rather than the specific details of the library we might get from a walkthrough. That feeling is indeed leveraged against the wall of the steep discount that expires on release. For all the criticism SF marketing gets, SF marketing is never bare-knuckled in this way.

ETA: I fully plan to buy this library on pre-release discount.


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## Frederick (Apr 25, 2021)

I think this library sounds excellent. I think the value to content ratio is great. My concerns about RR's are gone. I think the demos are fantastic. I decided I was going to buy it, because of how easy it appears to be to get the choir and the organ to sound like you're inside a real church.

And then I deleted my post about that, because I decided against it: The number of libraries in this series over the years might become something like 50 or even more, considering the tempo of the releases, and many of them will be great. The potential number of themes for this kind of specialty libraries is almost infinite. I already have Modus and Phoenix. This would become the third for me in about 9 months. Where and when would this end? Say buying 30 out of 50 for about 300 Euro each at introduction cost (VAT included) would be 9000 Euro. Ouch! It would be better to be very selective about wich ones to buy and which ones to skip.

Now do I really need this? I already have two dedicated organ libraries and many choirs. I should be able to come close to what I want. This also considering that the Baltic influence is not important for me doing mockups of existing scores. Therefore I should pass, despite this being a great library and a job well done by OT.


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## ism (Apr 25, 2021)

Frederick said:


> Now do I really need this? I already have two dedicated organ libraries and many choirs


You don't have a choir like this though


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## Frederick (Apr 25, 2021)

ism said:


> You don't have a choir like this though


You are absolutely right about that of course, but still, I can come close enough to the sound I'm looking for. I do feel some regret, because the sound of this library is so very, very good... but I'm sure the logic behind my decision is sound. Maybe at some point in the future I will decide that this is the absolute pearl in the series and will pick it up then.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Apr 25, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I would say the organs would be the cheapest third of the library, considering they require way less sampling.
> 
> There are no legato transitions - the other two sections require both dynamic layers and round robins.
> 
> ...


Choirs in Modus are 27 €, 20 €, and 13€ so 60 € total. The preorder price was 199 €.


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## jbuhler (Apr 25, 2021)

AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> Choirs in Modus are 27 €, 20 €, and 13€ so 60 € total. The preorder price was 199 €.


Choirs are almost an afterthought in Modus. Tallinn’s choirs seem much deeper.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 25, 2021)

AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> Choirs in Modus are 27 €, 20 €, and 13€ so 60 € total. The preorder price was 199 €.


There are 27 instruments in Modus for a cheaper total price. There are only 12 in Tallin for a higher total price. It is likely each instrument will be close to double the cost of Modus instruments or more. Though, if you really only want the choir, you will save money by waiting. It will likely be around 100€, give or take 20€


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## Francis Bourre (Apr 26, 2021)

@OrchestralTools The library sounds amazing. Do you plan for the release to have fixed the artifact issues mentioned in Benjamin Botkin walkthrough?


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## Marsen (Apr 26, 2021)

This:


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## Sunny Schramm (Apr 26, 2021)

Marsen said:


> This:



lower strings and pipes seems to work very good for northern viking music or movies like "The Revenant". nice raw sound...


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## Marsen (Apr 26, 2021)

Sunny Schramm said:


> lower strings and pipes seems to work very good for northern viking music. nice raw sound...


exactly my first thought too


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## AudioLoco (Apr 26, 2021)

Having listened again carefully to all the demos, I would only be interested in the choir - which sounds just phenomenal. Special indeed like nothing else available at the moment.

Strings sound nice but i have enough of those in many shapes and forms. The organ I couldn't care less about. I have a couple of decent ones and use them once every blue moon anyhow.
Will wait when the separate choir will be available, also because this month I already invested enough in samples (happy bunny, can't complain!).


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## ProfoundSilence (Apr 26, 2021)

Excited to check it when I get home tonight


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## Flyo (Apr 26, 2021)

@OrchestralTools How many vowels do we have in choirs?


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## Braveheart (Apr 26, 2021)

Amazing content, but the walkthrough confirmed that I’m already covered with similar stuff for my needs with other libraries I already own.


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## ism (Apr 26, 2021)

Braveheart said:


> Amazing content, but the walkthrough confirmed that I’m already covered with similar stuff for my needs with other libraries I already own.


Curious what are these similarly libraries? (So that I can buy them immediately  )


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## Braveheart (Apr 26, 2021)

ism said:


> Curious what are these similarly libraries? (So that I can buy them immediately  )


I have tons of string libraries, including Albion 5, and I have many choirs libraries, including Insolidus. They are not identical, but as a hobbyist, they are similar enough to cover my needs.


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## Marsen (Apr 26, 2021)

As this is the developer thread, I will make my homework on this, without droppings names.
But I guess, it´s near to impossible to get this combi of sound with existing vst´s. 

But I will try before giving up and purchasing Tallinn.


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## ism (Apr 26, 2021)

Braveheart said:


> I have tons of string libraries, including Albion 5, and I have many choirs libraries, including Insolidus. They are not identical, but as a hobbyist, they are similar enough to cover my needs.


Already have Tundra and Insolidus (and *love* them) - but thanks!

(And have pre-ordered Tallinn)


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## Braveheart (Apr 26, 2021)

ism said:


> Already have Tundra and Insolidus (and *love* them) - but thanks!
> 
> (And have pre-ordered Tallinn)


Don't get me wrong, it's an amazing library.


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## ism (Apr 26, 2021)

Marsen said:


> As this is the developer thread, I will make my homework on this, without droppings names.
> But I guess, it´s near to impossible to get this combi of sound with existing vst´s.
> 
> But I will try before giving up and purchasing Tallinn.



Well you never know. I attempted to mock up Fratres with the SF violin once, fully prepared to give up in despair after a couple of bars - only to be shocked at how well it turned out.

And I agree, it's important to respect that this is a developer thread. But I also think speaking of Tallinn as in the same league of brilliance as Tundra can only be good for OT. It's hard for me to see them as competitors, really. It feels more like we're in "how does one compare two sunrises" territory here.

But yeah, good to do due diligence ... before giving up in inevitably despair, and just buying Tallinn. 

I'm finding these walkthroughs just breathtaking. Not that I wasn't completely sold about 30s into the first video. But, yeah, wow.


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## Marsen (Apr 26, 2021)

Besides it´s called Voices & Strings:
Is it just me? 
This Organ!



ism said:


> how does one compare two sunrises


This is brilliant, ism!


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## dzilizzi (Apr 26, 2021)

I'm kind of with @Braveheart - between the Arks & Times and a bunch of other libraries from other companies, I'm not sure the choirs and strings bring much for me. The walkthrough didn't really change my mind. 

But the organ. With all the stops out. Yeah, after my price calculations, I pre-ordered it. I probably could have saved a bit waiting for the individual prices. But then, if it was close, I would have been annoyed that I wasted the chance for more libraries to make my GAS happy!


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## KEM (Apr 26, 2021)

This sounds absolutely incredible, Orchestral Tools continues to knock it out of the park with each library, definitely will be picking this up eventually!!


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## jbuhler (Apr 26, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> I'm kind of with @Braveheart - between the Arks & Times and a bunch of other libraries from other companies, I'm not sure the choirs and strings bring much for me. The walkthrough didn't really change my mind.
> 
> But the organ. With all the stops out. Yeah, after my price calculations, I pre-ordered it. I probably could have saved a bit waiting for the individual prices. But then, if it was close, I would have been annoyed that I wasted the chance for more libraries to make my GAS happy!


I don't think I have any string libraries that do what this string library does, and I have a lot of string libraries that fall in its general vicinity. Now, is it a useful addition? That will very much depend on the kind of music you make.

I'm weirdly indifferent to the organ. But that's generally how I feel about organs. And children's choirs.


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## Banquet (Apr 26, 2021)

Sounds really nice... just the sort of thing that inspires me no end... I'm feeling like I'm going to get it but have a few days to think about it.


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## CT (Apr 26, 2021)

I don't think anybody really has strings like this if for no other reason than most string libraries with legato and non-vibrato options don't have actual corresponding non-vib transitions recorded, so you'll always get a weird bumpiness as the transitions from normal vibrato performances are spliced into the non-vib sustains. Granted, these strings aren't totally non-vib, but pretty close.


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## Banquet (Apr 26, 2021)

Mike T said:


> I don't think anybody really has strings like this if for no other reason than most string libraries with legato and non-vibrato options don't have actual corresponding non-vib transitions recorded, so you'll always get a weird bumpiness as the transitions from normal vibrato performances are spliced into the non-vib sustains. Granted, these strings aren't totally non-vib, but pretty close.


I'm mostly interested in it for the strings, although I love the choir too. Both sound unique to me. My main choirs are Eric Whitacre and Dominous and I think this will go great with those. And the strings will go well with Tundra I think and possible SCS as well, but they are their own thing for sure. The organs sounds good too, but that's not an instrument I've felt the need to use (up-until now!)


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## Jett Hitt (Apr 26, 2021)

It’s a pretty snazzy organ, and I don’t want it in my arsenal, lest I be tempted to write for the organ. It’s an archaic relic from a bygone era. (My wife would say the same about the orchestra.) But I guess I’m gonna have an organ now. So I’ll try to limit my interactions with it to dark winter nights fueled by brown liquor and remorse for misspent youth.


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## filipjonathan (Apr 26, 2021)

Damn, that choir is something else tho....


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## Alex Niedt (Apr 26, 2021)

Braveheart said:


> I have tons of string libraries, including Albion 5, and I have many choirs libraries, including Insolidus. They are not identical, but as a hobbyist, they are similar enough to cover my needs.


Those are great libraries, but there's absolutely no way I could effectively recreate the stuff I've made with Tallinn with those libraries. While the general aesthetic is fairly similar, they handle very differently. You're certainly not going to get the melodic lines you can get out of Tallinn strings with Albion V strings (not even remotely close). And the Tallinn choir is so much gentler, moodier, and more intimate than Insolidus, which (by comparison) sounds bigger and louder even at its quietest. You're not getting this quality out of EWC, either, as it sounds "harder" and more mechanical no matter what. It's hard to describe...more something you feel when playing, but Tallinn is truly something special, emotionally. It feels so beautifully human.


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## Marsen (Apr 26, 2021)

I'm struggling with my language barrier here.


Jett Hitt said:


> It’s a pretty snazzy organ


I love the organ, i don't want the organ?
My wife think, the orchestra is a dinosaur relict?
I buy the organ, but just to play in dark winters nights?
I'm out.
Translation please, ...or not, ..whatever..


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## muziksculp (Apr 26, 2021)

Does TALLINN use the new version of SINE ? 

I noticed in this video that he uses the soft sustain strings, with legato enabled, but plays chords, is this something new ? i.e. Polyphonic Legato is possible now ? 

i.e. When I enable legato on a Sustain patch in Berlin Symphonic Strings, I can only play monophonically. 

I cued the video at the time he shows this :


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## Flyo (Apr 26, 2021)

Anyone knows how many vowels te choir have? I listen Ah Mm and Uh..


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## Jett Hitt (Apr 26, 2021)

Marsen said:


> I'm struggling with my language barrier here.
> 
> I love the organ, i don't want the organ?
> My wife think, the orchestra is a dinosaur relict?
> ...


Na, I think you pretty much got it. 😂


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## muziksculp (Apr 26, 2021)

I love the way the Organ sounds,  

I'm glad they sampled it for this library. I think it sounds very warm, and majestic. A great instrument to use with the choirs, but also on its own, or for layering, ..etc. very handy to have such a beautiful sounding historic church organ.


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## river angler (Apr 26, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> Those are great libraries, but there's absolutely no way I could effectively recreate the stuff I've made with Tallinn with those libraries. While the general aesthetic is fairly similar, they handle very differently. You're certainly not going to get the melodic lines you can get out of Tallinn strings with Albion V strings (not even remotely close). And the Tallinn choir is so much gentler, moodier, and more intimate than Insolidus, which (by comparison) sounds bigger and louder even at its quietest. You're not getting this quality out of EWC, either, as it sounds "harder" and more mechanical no matter what. It's hard to describe...more something you feel when playing, but Tallinn is truly something special, emotionally. It feels so beautifully human.


"It Feels so beautifully human"

Aptly put! I don't own any dedicated choral libraries myself. I do however use the various choral articulations found in Time Macro/Micro and BO Inspire Series which have a similar quality pedigree to Tallinn.

I have never been drawn to any of the usual "epic" type choral libraries not only because that big bombastic, perfunctory sound is nauseatingly over used but also because you're stuck with that bold delivery that renders the libraries rather limited to those harder dynamic timbres. I find I can make do with the bolder choral articulations in Kontakt Factory or even the stock ones in Logic when I need a more bombastic choral energy. Also I have yet to hear a developer really nail the big choral sound with word building that is intuitive to use: after all that big, bold choral sound wouldn't really be worth investing in any library without it. If you are composing for video games I can see how the big bashing choral libraries make sense but for bespoke composition for film/TV drama the likes of Tallinn are infinitely more useful.

Much more poignant and useful are libraries from developers that focus on the more sensitive, evocative, intriguing, classically beautiful and ultimately more musical articulations. Tallinn is such a library. I don't acquire libraries very often hence I don't have a massive collection nor ever have any that sit unused. Tallinn will be a rare acquisition for me.


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## river angler (Apr 26, 2021)

Cheezus said:


> If only someone would sample it into a virtual instrument so we could play it anywhere!


A church organ isn't one without its natural location "church" ambience.

...If you want to use your own ambient algorithms just cut the release samples


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## ism (Apr 26, 2021)

river angler said:


> A church organ isn't one without its natural location "church" ambience.




Unless of course you count Bach’s lesser known Bathtub Organ works.


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## holywilly (Apr 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Does TALLINN use the new version of SINE ?
> 
> I noticed in this video that he uses the soft sustain strings, with legato enabled, but plays chords, is this something new ? i.e. Polyphonic Legato is possible now ?
> 
> ...



I spot that OT was using the upcoming update version of SINE in Berlin Symphonic Strings Walkthrough Video. Just look at the keyboard in SINE, the one used in the walkthrough has more "flat" design than the "stereoscopic" design in our current version, I might be wrong. Although it's an interesting observation.  

Back to Tallinn, I can't wait to hands on these beautiful instruments, my projects are now awaiting for Tallinn to come.


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## muziksculp (Apr 26, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I spot that OT was using the upcoming update version of SINE in Berlin Symphonic Strings Walkthrough Video. Just look at the keyboard in SINE, the one used in the walkthrough has more "flat" design than the "stereoscopic" design in our current version, I might be wrong. Although it's an interesting observation.
> 
> Back to Tallinn, I can't wait to hands on these beautiful instruments, my projects are now awaiting for Tallinn to come.


Interesting observation, I can't seem to see a difference, but my eyesight is not so good, so I hope you are right, and that they are using a new version of SINE for the upcoming release, and hopefully it will also be the version for BSS fixes. 

Back to TALLINN. 

Looking forward to May 5th (Cinco De Mayo).


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## CT (Apr 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Looking forward to May 5th (Cinco De Mayo).


And what better occasion to celebrate with Pärt-esque music?


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## ProfoundSilence (Apr 26, 2021)

I will say that we probably have more churches than people - but this is my small town, which this is *probably* my favorite local church/cathedral that I've sang in.



I don't know of many recordings(I wish I could find some good vocal ones) but it's got a great cathedral. To put it into perspective, our only highschool had ~2000 students.

Not to fan the flames, but I think jeff just miscalculated just how many perfectly juicy organs(enjoy that description you heathens) there are. Maybe the exact spot where he lives doesn't have any? But the organ is far from obsolete - and if you even SORT OF doubt that, @Rctec 's score is no small reason that interstellar is hands down one of my favorite cinematic experiences of any genre. And it's not just featured in it, it's practically the backbone of the score. Imagine that, space - organ... but it hits like a mack truck.


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## ka00 (Apr 26, 2021)

Pärty time. Excellent.


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## Michel Simons (Apr 26, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> I can barely coordinate playing a small keyboard with two hands......


Show-off. I can only coordinate using one finger.

And then all this talk about massive organs.

Anyway, I am afraid to watch that walk-through video.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 26, 2021)

Michel Simons said:


> Show-off. I can only coordinate using one finger.
> 
> And then all this talk about massive organs.
> 
> Anyway, I am afraid to watch that walk-through video.


I mostly use a mouse.  

It's funny, I thought Ben did a bit better of a job on the walkthrough. Too much full chord playing - you lose the charm of the strings for me. It's generally not how strings are played. Same with choirs - no more than 4 notes at a time or it sounds weird to me.


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## DSmolken (Apr 26, 2021)

ism said:


> Unless of course you count Bach’s lesser known Bathtub Organ works.


"Tiny Bubbles" by J.S. Bach.

Though for a slow choir that sounds great doing sustained chords, a matching organ recorded in the same space sure is great.


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## Drundfunk (Apr 26, 2021)

No idea why I'm watching the walkthrough. @BenBotkin already sold me on this. Btw in the walkthrough I love how the speaker pronounced "Volles Werk" (Wolles Wörk xD). It's super hilarious considering OT is a German company


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## CT (Apr 26, 2021)

That guy's become as much of a walkthrough mainstay as a certain very excited individual.

Anyway, I pre-ordered... about $314 should cover the thread damages.

Ahhh, it's all purged huh? That's probably for the best. In lieu of that nonsense, here's a great organ work for anyone who wants to be more titillated by what one can do with such an instrument. 




And how about something from the man himself? Now all we need is a decent sampled countertenor.


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## hauspe (Apr 27, 2021)

Mike T said:


> That guy's become as much of a walkthrough mainstay as a certain very excited individual.
> 
> Anyway, I pre-ordered... about $314 should cover the thread damages.
> 
> Ahhh, it's all purged huh? That's probably for the best. In lieu of that nonsense, here's a great organ work for anyone who wants to be more titillated by what one can do with such an instrument.



I am totally impressed - preordered! You got the rest of my almost empty wallet @OrchestralTools


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## EwigWanderer (Apr 27, 2021)

Can’t afford it now but I hope you could just buy women’s choir alone and complete the collection later. It sounds fantastic!!


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## Bereckis (Apr 27, 2021)

When will Tallin be made available?


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## Evans (Apr 27, 2021)

Bereckis said:


> When will Tallin be made available?


Their web site notes that pre-order ends May 4th. I located a YouTube video description on their official account that states the following:


> Tallinn will be available for download on May 5, 2021


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## Flyo (Apr 27, 2021)

@OrchestralTools How many vowels for Choirs anyone?


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## ism (Apr 28, 2021)

Anyone know if the "Orchestral Perspectives" series is an entirely new series inaugurated by Tallinn, or does it a series started by Modus and/or Phoenix?


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## Bereckis (Apr 28, 2021)

I believe that it is a stand-alone product and does not belong to any series.

I have now also bought Tallinn.

I also find some Creative soundpacks like Umbra, Maenad, Babel and Amber very exciting.


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## ism (Apr 28, 2021)

My preorder of Tallinn comes up under "Orchestral Perspectives"

And it's such a rich engagement with a musicality hitherto completely inaccessible via samples, I just wonder if there might be more coming in a "Orchestral Perspectives" series?


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## Ron Verboom (Apr 28, 2021)

Very tempting! The organ sounds great! How does this choir compare to the SF Whitacre Choir? It sounds very similar...


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## Alex Niedt (Apr 28, 2021)

Ron Verboom said:


> How does this choir compare to the SF Whitacre Choir? It sounds very similar...


EWC has a lot of textures, but it's far more difficult to craft a convincing performance from it, as the transitions are rather hard and robotic compared to the Tallinn choir. Tallinn sounds and feels more human, gentle, emotional...and it's easy to create a performance from it. If you want to hold down sustained pads, EWC is nice (though I prefer the textural stuff in TIME Macro and Micro), but if you want to create something melodic and moving, Tallinn wins by a mile, IMO.


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## Jett Hitt (Apr 28, 2021)

ism said:


> My preorder of Tallinn comes up under "Orchestral Perspectives"
> 
> And it's such a rich engagement with a musicality hitherto completely inaccessible via samples, I just wonder if there might be more coming in a "Orchestral Perspectives" series?


I don’t know what this means. I saw no such label when I ordered. Where are you seeing this? It would be great if this were a series.


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## frangolupo23 (Apr 28, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> It looks like snow or clouds, so I'd say something freezy or breezy.


So, Chris, what would you say now? Is it rather freezy or breezy?


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 28, 2021)

frangolupo23 said:


> So, Chris, what would you say now? Is it rather freezy or breezy?


Ummm, I think it would err on the side of freezy for the strings, and breezy for the choir. But once I get my hands on it I'll be able to report back and say for sure.


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## frangolupo23 (Apr 28, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Ummm, I think it would err on the side of freezy for the strings, and breezy for the choir. But once I get my hands on it I'll be able to report back and say for sure.


Judging from the videos, I would say the same. It is one of those libraries that really tempt me despite their rather high price tag.


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## muziksculp (Apr 28, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> I think it would err on the side of freezy for the strings


Hi Chris, Can you elaborate a bit more on the freezy for the strings comment.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 28, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi Chris, Can you elaborate a bit more on the freezy for the strings comment.


Haha sure, simply that because the strings were recorded with less vibrato in general, it reminds me of applications in colder, more still scenes. Although I'm sure they could produce a nice warm sound as well if needed.


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## ProfoundSilence (Apr 28, 2021)

I vote for a queezy strings expansion. 

"Projectile Vomit Violas" -recorded on the edge of hurling
"Blow Chunk Celli" - sampled in both dry-heave and very wet-heave.


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## ism (Apr 28, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> I don’t know what this means. I saw no such label when I ordered. Where are you seeing this? It would be great if this were a series.


It's on the OT site under "my licenses", under preorders


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## muziksculp (Apr 28, 2021)

Listening to the Strings, I think they still sound warm played with a little bit of vibrato, so they don't seem to be played without any vibrato, that would have made them sound super cold. 

I think the space they are playing in helps amplify the little vibrato, and make them warm sounding to not overpower the Choir when they are accompanying them. So, it was intentionally done for the setting, and choirs.

Listen to the strings carefully :


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## CT (Apr 28, 2021)

Ron Verboom said:


> Very tempting! The organ sounds great! How does this choir compare to the SF Whitacre Choir? It sounds very similar...


There are some superficial similarities, but also some significant stylistic differences, and the EWC legato is of course limited to lyrical but wordless lines. The Tallinn choir sounds like a very nice way to augment that with syllabic possibilities (sort of a much more gentle version of what Oceania does), without crossing into the dreaded nonsense Latin/robotic wordbuilder territory.

I'm looking forward to using them together, as the two other choir libraries I've mentioned here are the only ones on the market that don't turn me off for one reason or another. Nice to have a third!


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## ism (Apr 28, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> EWC has a lot of textures, but it's far more difficult to craft a convincing performance from it, as the transitions are rather hard and robotic compared to the Tallinn choir. Tallinn sounds and feels more human, gentle, emotional...and it's easy to create a performance from it. If you want to hold down sustained pads, EWC is nice (though I prefer the textural stuff in TIME Macro and Micro), but if you want to create something melodic and moving, Tallinn wins by a mile, IMO.


Not sure I agree with you here. The EWC legators are faster, which obviously is a limitation. But it also opens up a different musicality, just not one as deeply within the liturgical realm of Tallinn.

Also, the WEC default mic is more ambient, but you have lots of mics to create something more intimate, more classical. Moreover, very nearly all official demos also really hit the filmic ambient side pretty hard - which is lovely, but I'm interested in a more intimate, classical sound, which is actually note that hard to find, given all the mics, and finding the sweet spot of legatos. And in the right sweet spot the legato is amazing. Though I do wish it had a slower legato like Tallinn (which would greatly expand the expressive space of the library) it also has it's very melodic and moving sweet spots.

The larger point is that both Tallinn and EWC manage to be true to their own, very different musicalities. Both libraries manage to balance the need to sell to straightforwardly commercial media applications (underscore, Norwegian-Crime, Ambient-Icelandic-Mush etc) with a genuine engagement with the artistic vision of Eric in the latter, and the Estonian Symphonic Choir & Orchestral in the later (where of course the presence of Arvo Pärt is deeply and omnipresently felt).


And this doesn't even start to theorize how in having both of these libraries the whole might well be greater the sum of the individual parts.

Classical example of "how does one compare two sunrises" territory.


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## chrisav (Apr 28, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I vote for a queezy strings expansion.
> 
> "Projectile Vomit Violas" -recorded on the edge of hurling
> "Blow Chunk Celli" - sampled in both dry-heave and very wet-heave.


Truly the pack for chunderous low end! Do try the meticulously sampled barftok pisickatos. Also, feed it into the new retch-a-sketch engine; throw up a few notes and have a sick score ready in an instant! Perfect for your next scoring gag.


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## Jett Hitt (Apr 28, 2021)

ism said:


> It's on the OT site under "my licenses", under preorders


Ah, I see it now. It doesn't show in the player store or license section.


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## Alex Niedt (Apr 28, 2021)

ism said:


> Not sure I agree with you here. The EWC legators are faster, which obviously is a limitation. But it also opens up a different musicality, just not one as deeply within the liturgical realm of Tallinn.


When I'm playing the libraries side-by-side, the EWC legato isn't something I'd apply the term "musicality" to. The entire magic in Tallinn is its musicality over other libraries. The EWC legato isn't just fast. To me, it also sounds sterile and robotic in comparison to Tallinn. Playing them side-by-side, one is a constant reminder I'm playing individual samples strung together (albeit beautifully recorded) and the other feels like playing a fluid instrument. One I find myself writing around its limitations, while the other feels freeing because I don't have to worry about half the transitions taking me out of the music.


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## jbuhler (Apr 28, 2021)

ism said:


> Not sure I agree with you here. The EWC legators are faster, which obviously is a limitation. But it also opens up a different musicality, just not one as deeply within the liturgical realm of Tallinn.
> 
> Also, the WEC default mic is more ambient, but you have lots of mics to create something more intimate, more classical. Moreover, very nearly all official demos also really hit the filmic ambient side pretty hard - which is lovely, but I'm interested in a more intimate, classical sound, which is actually note that hard to find, given all the mics, and finding the sweet spot of legatos. And in the right sweet spot the legato is amazing. Though I do wish it had a slower legato like Tallinn (which would greatly expand the expressive space of the library) it also has it's very melodic and moving sweet spots.
> 
> ...


I do suspect that the Tallinn choir will be a little easier to use in practice, because it is a more limited palette so it should be somewhat easier to get a handle on. The space where the Tallinn choir and EWC intersect—that has me very interested too, and I'm quite anxious to explore it.


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## Alex Niedt (Apr 28, 2021)

Yeah, the Mmms in that library sound fine. Where most choir library legatos fall apart is the more open vowels. You will all understand what I'm talking about once you get Tallinn in your hands and can compare how it plays/feels to other libraries. I guess just ignore my hands-on feedback until then, LOL.


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## ism (Apr 28, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> EWC legato isn't something I'd apply the term "musicality"


Well, fair. But there are more musicalities in heaven and earth ... and Tallinn is a chance for us non-Estonians to dip our toes into this very particular, incredible musicality. 


But there’s no reason for that to invalidate the musicality of Eric. Granted Tallinn probably has more focus on a particular style of legato that (like CSS) will make it more plonkable for a particular style of composition. But EWC truly and uniquely captures a very, very different musicality, with a wealth of resources (beyond legato) that similarly aren’t the focus of Tallinn.





Alex Niedt said:


> The entire magic in Tallinn is its musicality over other libraries.



So I hear this incredible musicality captured in Tallinn, filtered through an OT product lens, just as there’s this incredible musicality in EWC filtered through a SF lens. I just don’t see why we need to so categorically elevate one musicality over another. 


Really enjoyed your Tallinn demo, btw. Not at all how I would use it, but very, very cool.


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## CT (Apr 28, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> Yeah, the Mmms in that library sound fine. Where most choir library legatos fall apart is the more open vowels. You will all understand what I'm talking about once you get Tallinn in your hands and can compare how it plays/feels to other libraries. I guess just ignore my hands-on feedback until then, LOL.


I don't think it's about ignoring your hands on feedback man, and there's no need to take it that way. But if what you describe of your experience with one library doesn't align with what others feel, are they going to magically feel differently upon getting another one? I guess it's possible, but I don't see it happening. Not a big deal.

The problem with open vowels is huge, I agree. So many choral libraries get stricken from my list because you can hear mouth shapes changing from one note to the next... I imagine it's very hard to get that right. That isn't a problem I get in EWC at all, but there's plenty of other subtlety in sampled legato to be drawn to or turned off by.


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## Alex Niedt (Apr 28, 2021)

ism said:


> So I hear this incredible musicality captured in Tallinn, filtered through an OT product lens, just as there’s this incredible musicality in EWC filtered through a SF lens. I just don’t see why we need to so categorically elevate one musicality over another.
> 
> 
> Really enjoyed your Tallinn demo, btw. Not at all how I would use it, but very, very cool.


I was speaking specifically to the musicality in choir legatos, and also said EWC is great for sustained textural pad work. That's where I think it really excels. My responses in this thread started by dismissing the idea that you can achieve with EWC and Albion V what you can achieve with Tallinn. I still find those other libraries beautiful and useful in their own ways. So I'm not trying to elevate one type of sound over the other. I'm merely highlighting what I feel is vastly superior in human feel when using this library, a type of feel that isn't present in other libraries. If everyone believes their other libraries can capture this sound, cool. That's just not at all my experience as a user. And lastly, thank you!


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## ism (Apr 28, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Not really what I'd call fast or sterile or unmusical legato, though I guess it has the advantage of this being an excerpt by the composer behind the library.
> 
> Smooth contemporary choral sound influenced by Anglican traditions. Whereas Tallinn sounds more archaic, in a great way. Why does it have to be a competition?





There’s a number of great moments in the OT videos where you have Estonian musicians, from various angles, talking about the singular qualities of their tradition, at one point talking about the essentially local, Estonian nature of the choral tradition and how it’s quite different from both Russian and Western choral traditions. 

I can’t say I know enough about choral tradition or technique to understand the difference formally. But I can certainly hear very different meaning at play between, say, a Kings College chapel record vs an (later) Pärt recording (recorded, I now realize in Tallinn  ). Similarly, Eric Whitacre with the Eric Whitacre Singers bring a certain British sensibility together with a certain American experimentalism. 

... not that any of this mattered when I was trying to write with, say, Venus, which for all it’s loveliness bakes in a conventional Hollywood epic musicality that, though you can occasionally escape it, your fighting the samples to do so. 
My early attempts to write something even vaguely gesturing to the musicality of Pärt ... kind of made me want to slam my head in a door. 

So it’s a glorious thing to now have two such libraries as Tallinn and EWC each so true to such rich and distinct musicalities.


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## Lode_Runner (Apr 28, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Haha sure, simply that because the strings were recorded with less vibrato in general, it reminds me of applications in colder, more still scenes. Although I'm sure they could produce a nice warm sound as well if needed.


I'm probably over thinking this, but I'm now wondering if string players would play less vibrato when the temperature drops below zero due to stiff muscles, or more vibrato due to shivering.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 28, 2021)

Lode_Runner said:


> I'm probably over thinking this, but I'm now wondering if string players would play less vibrato when the temperature drops below zero due to stiff muscles, or more vibrato due to shivering.


I'd go with the latter option, simply uncontrolled XD


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## ism (Apr 28, 2021)

Yes my experience of coming from a *very* cold place is that cold is a very kinetic experience, what with all the shivering and running to get inside before exposed flesh freezes. 

So I don’t always buy the ‘cold’ metaphor for such libraries. There’s a lot here that sounds extremely warm to me.


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## CT (Apr 28, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> If everyone believes their other libraries can capture this sound, cool.


Ah no, I, at least, don't think so at all, which is why I've said a couple times that I'm grateful to have this specific thing captured. Just didn't agree with the take that EWC needs to be relegated to textural pads duty, that's it.


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## Flyo (Apr 29, 2021)

I see this choir lacking of variety and as a big miss opportunity to record all the vowels to chose from at least. Sounds amazing, natural organic and real. Maybe a revision on a future? They only bring Uh, Mm and some words.


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## ism (Apr 29, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Ah no, I, at least, don't think so at all, which is why I've said a couple times that I'm grateful to have this specific thing captured. Just didn't agree with the take that EWC needs to be relegated to textural pads duty, that's it.


I agree, EWC suffers from being *so* good at pads and various forms of such utterly beautiful ambient mush that its other dimensions are too easily neglected. I really love the video with Eric himself talking about the vision he brings to the library and it's musicality, almost pleading with people to compose something other than ambient mush.

But, while the single legato clearly has its limitations, it also combines with the library's (many) other strengths to give a deeply, magnificently human feel. And it's a shame to see it relegated to underscore and etherial ambient pads, however to-die-for gorgeous such ambient mush invariably is, for there's a lot more going on here.

I'm also quite certain that Tallinn, and it's fabulous sounding legato, combined with all its many other strengths offers an similarly singular human feel.

And in that this sound is so deeply formed in the living, breathing omnipresence of Part, who's life's work is in some sense a meditation on humanity thrown into the dialectic of transcendence and imminence, the material and the sublime, it has it's own wonderfully unique feel. And the form of legato OT has chosen to sample strikes me as an excellent choice for this. 

Of course, like EWC, I'd love a couple dozen more options in legato samples. But such is our vulgar material reality in the face of such sublime beauty .

But I don't think the humanity captured in Tallinn is "vastly superior" to EWC. Both are vastly singular, vastly beautiful, vastly human.


----------



## Jotto (Apr 29, 2021)

Lovely sounds. I really want this. Btw .. i would have prefered if OT included vat in the prices. Not a big deal but it just reminds me of every time i used to order plane tickets.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 29, 2021)

Jotto said:


> Lovely sounds. I really want this. Btw .. i would have prefered if OT included vat in the prices. Not a big deal but it just reminds me of every time i used to order plane tickets.


But I don't want to pay VAT!


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## Jotto (Apr 29, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> But I don't want to pay VAT!


That you must


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## jbuhler (Apr 29, 2021)

Jotto said:


> That you must


Not if you live in place without VAT.


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## Jotto (Apr 29, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Not if you live in place without VAT.


Maybe you are right. Can i ask where you live? On the other hand.. do OT really send that money to my country?


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## jbuhler (Apr 29, 2021)

Jotto said:


> Maybe you are right. Can i ask where you live? On the other hand.. do OT really send that money to my country?


I live in the US. We have sales tax, but no VAT. And the sales tax varies by state and even county and city. I don’t recall if OT collects sales tax. Most foreign companies do not unless they use fastspring or, like Native Instruments, they have a major presence in the US. 

We also have to pay the costs of the currency exchange. 

If you are in the Eurozone, I can’t imagine the collected VAT is not sent where it’s supposed to. Other locations if they collect it I think they would as well but it’s harder to be certain about because enforcement would be more nebulous.


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## Jotto (Apr 29, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I live in the US. We have sales tax, but no VAT. And the sales tax varies by state and even county and city. I don’t recall if OT collects sales tax. Most foreign companies do not unless they use fastspring or, like Native Instruments, they have a major presence in the US.
> 
> We also have to pay the costs of the currency exchange.
> 
> If you are in the Eurozone, I can’t imagine the collected VAT is not sent where it’s supposed to. Other locations if they collect it I think they would as well but it’s harder to be certain about because enforcement would be more nebulous.


Maybe OT can ciearify this? I live in Norway by the way. And we do have vat.


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## ism (Apr 29, 2021)

I think it's just that they're not required to collect VAT on sales outside the EU. I get charged local sales tax when I buy OT from NI, but not when I buy directly from their site.


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## jbuhler (Apr 29, 2021)

The varying tax rates, VAT and otherwise, is likely why companies are less likely to show prices with taxes included.


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## Fever Phoenix (Apr 29, 2021)

Too bad I will still have to skip all these exciting new OT releases, as Sine Player is still too unstable on my system. I will have to clean re-install one more time and try it all over again. Unfortunately that scared me away since the release of Modus.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 29, 2021)

Jotto said:


> Maybe you are right. Can i ask where you live? On the other hand.. do OT really send that money to my country?


I am also in the US. Currently, California does not collect sales tax on digital products. Some states do though. I'm guessing they use a shop company like digital river that deals with the taxes. That is the easiest way to do it. I have sold things using Etsy just because they deal with the taxes so I don't have to.


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## river angler (Apr 30, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> When I'm playing the libraries side-by-side, the EWC legato isn't something I'd apply the term "musicality" to. The entire magic in Tallinn is its musicality over other libraries. The EWC legato isn't just fast. To me, it also sounds sterile and robotic in comparison to Tallinn. Playing them side-by-side, one is a constant reminder I'm playing individual samples strung together (albeit beautifully recorded) and the other feels like playing a fluid instrument. One I find myself writing around its limitations, while the other feels freeing because I don't have to worry about half the transitions taking me out of the music.


...Yes! "musicality" is definitely the word that describes Time Micro/Macro too! In fact this really does sum up the big difference for me between the Spitfire and Orchestral Tools pedigree in general and precisely why I prefer OT.


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## river angler (Apr 30, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Not really what I'd call fast or sterile or unmusical legato, though I guess it has the advantage of this being an excerpt by the composer behind the library.
> 
> Smooth contemporary choral sound influenced by Anglican traditions. Whereas Tallinn sounds more archaic, in a great way. Why does it have to be a competition?



Hate to say it but it simply sounds synthetic! Those legatos just don't sound musical to my ears: the transitions are harmonically correct but join the notes in a perfunctory way rather than with musical ease.


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## Michel Simons (Apr 30, 2021)

And there I was thinking that this was a commercial thread...

Anyway, pre-ordered it yesterday. Ben's video basically sold it to me. OT should send him a box of chocolates.


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## CT (Apr 30, 2021)

Michel Simons said:


> And there I was thinking that this was a commercial thread...


Oh good grief. Ok, I'm deleting it all. For that matter maybe I should just stop posting altogether for a while since it so often seems to perturb others. I would have thought that the enthusiasm I've had for the library this thread is devoted to and the fact that the tangential discussion of something else wasn't at all framed as a "you should get this instead" thing would have been enough to allay the sticklers but never fear, all cleaned up now.


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## zouzou (May 1, 2021)

There are two things I can't resist: Strings and Choirs...

So I just pre-ordered Tallinn.

I hesitated a little, but it is true that despite the limits of the number of articulations and vowels, the sound of this choir is really unique, with a sublime legato with perfectly natural rendering.
The same goes for the strings, which I find for my part "cold" and "thin", but which have a sound not found in other libraries (to my knowledge)...
The two organs are a good complement, using the same sound space of the chapel.

So it's a very consistent set for a specific style and pieces.
It will naturally find its place in addition to other libraries (EWC, SCS, Tundra...) such as an element with its own color.

Just before I paid for my purchase, I happily remembered that I had obtained vouchers with old OT purchases, and I was able to save 50 euros: thank you very much Orchestral Tools!


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## ism (May 1, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Oh good grief. Ok, I'm deleting it all. For that matter maybe I should just stop posting altogether for a while since it so often seems to perturb others. I would have thought that the enthusiasm I've had for the library this thread is devoted to and the fact that the tangential discussion of something else wasn't at all framed as a "you should get this instead" thing would have been enough to allay the sticklers but never fear, all cleaned up now.


I'm with you on this.

EWC and Tallinn fundamentally draw on very different visions of musicality, which I think counterpoint each other beautifully.

Eric describes a musicality build from imminence that reaches towards the transcendent, in the material language of nearly proto-evolutionary psychology, how all orchestral beauty arises from the human voice and such. Tallinn begins with the cathedral-esque transcendence of the sacred, from which reaches out towards the raw materiality of wooley jumper wearing Norwegian homicide detectives.

And celebrating the counterpoint, surely, is going to going to ultimately benefit OT, and this thread, more than simply slagging (or simply denying) the musicality of the competition.


A world in which it becomes widely recognized that, like strings, and similarly owning to the depths and breadth of their diversities of musicalities, you can never too many choral libraries surely is better for everyone.


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## LamaRose (May 1, 2021)

zouzou said:


> Just before I paid for my purchase, I happily remembered that I had obtained vouchers with old OT purchases, and I was able to save 50 euros: thank you very much Orchestral Tools!


How/where would I check to verify if I have any vouchers? Checked under "account" on the OT website... nothing there.


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## Loïc D (May 1, 2021)

LamaRose said:


> How/where would I check to verify if I have any vouchers? Checked under "account" on the OT website... nothing there.


I think you need to find these in your mails. I know I have a 100e voucher somewhere if I spend a lot (don’t remember the minimum though).
But I’m positive they are not listed on your account.


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## zouzou (May 1, 2021)

LamaRose said:


> How/where would I check to verify if I have any vouchers? Checked under "account" on the OT website... nothing there.


Hi LamaRose.

When I bought a pre-order Berlin Orchestra Inspire 1 and then 2, I received in the purchase confirmation email the discount code for -50 or -100 euros (-100 if buying more than 600 euros...).
I don't think there's anything in the account, because the accounts are recent at OT.
You can always contact the OT customer service about this...
Good luck!


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## pfmusic (May 1, 2021)

Outstanding sounds in this library. To pre-order or not to pre-order? That is the question... 

Great work @OrchestralTools


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## CT (May 1, 2021)

ism said:


> And celebrating the counterpoint, surely, is going to going to ultimately benefit OT, and this thread, more than simply slagging (or simply denying) the musicality of the competition.


This was my hope as well, but it seems as if there is no permitted (by forum opinion, not moderator action) middle ground between talking about other things negatively and strictly adhering to the commercial thread rules by saying absolutely nothing. Oh well.


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## jbuhler (May 1, 2021)

Mike T said:


> This was my hope as well, but it seems as if there is no permitted (by forum opinion, not moderator action) middle ground between talking about other things negatively and strictly adhering to the commercial thread rules by saying absolutely nothing. Oh well.


We might need a Tallinn thread on sample talk to allow more free ranging discussions.


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## LamaRose (May 1, 2021)

It's pretty elementary to ANYONE with ANY KIND of history on VIC - no fvcking pissing contests on Commercial threads. FFS, there's a whole wide ocean of opportunity to diss, dice, and dissect on other sub-forums... and when shite gets old, it gets smelly.

Not to be confused with asking developers HARD questions when they're dicking around... sometimes "they" deserve a bit of rioting... but FFS...

This placation of any reasonable modicum of decorum on these forums has me seriously second-guessing my choice of calibers, lol... maybe I need a bigger boat.

I'm going to watch me some Love Boat or Fantasy Island to cool off now.


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## CT (May 1, 2021)

LamaRose said:


> It's pretty elementary to ANYONE with ANY KIND of history on VIC - no fvcking pissing contests on Commercial threads. FFS, there's a whole wide ocean of opportunity to diss, dice, and dissect on other sub-forums... and when shite gets old, it gets smelly.
> 
> Not to be confused with asking developers HARD questions when they're dicking around... sometimes "they" deserve a bit of rioting... but FFS...
> 
> ...


It seemed to me that the discussion led pretty naturally (and civilly) into the subject of another library after someone asked about the two in relation to each other. In any case, it's over with now, so does this rant really help anything?


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## jbuhler (May 1, 2021)

Yes, also those rules date back to days when almost everyone was accessing the forum through the website, where it's relatively obvious which part of the forum you are in. But if you are using your phone to access the forum and using what's new to page through recent threads, it's not always very obvious which forum you are in. The forum is listed but not prominently and so when you are responding to posts it's relatively easy to forgot you aren't on the sample talk forum.


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## ism (May 1, 2021)

LamaRose said:


> It's pretty elementary to ANYONE with ANY KIND of history on VIC - no fvcking pissing contests on Commercial threads. FFS, there's a whole wide ocean of opportunity to diss, dice, and dissect on other sub-forums... and when shite gets old, it gets smelly.
> 
> Not to be confused with asking developers HARD questions when they're dicking around... sometimes "they" deserve a bit of rioting... but FFS...
> 
> ...



Sure ... but at the same time, while its good for there to be a safe space for engineering questions, and VAT questions, and player compatibility questions ... shouldn't a commercial thread also be a place for people to ponder, triangulate, contextualize, understand the musically of an upcoming library? Especially when it's in pre-release? And especially when by the time anyone (not paid by OT) will get their hands on it, the pre-order price will be gone forever?


And also especially with a library that's so groundbreaking (game changing even  ) in the spaces of musicality it opens up, as Tallinn certainly appears to be.


And there's really not a lot of points of reference in the sample library world against which to contextualize Tallinn, musically. Dominus perhaps, and EWC, but these may be the only ones which ever remotely adjacent enough to server as useful comparison/counterpoint ... but the differences are huge, and it's hard to see them as competitors.

I'm sure there will be non-commercial threads once it's released, but as it's still in pre-order ... and especially since no one has actually said anything critical about Tallinn, I'm not convinced that best servers the community either.


You're of course right about pissing contests on commercial threads (if only this could be a rule on all threads). But I also think it needs to be legitimate to - respectfully, absent pissing contests - discuss a new library in proper context, especially during pre-order, even on a commercial thread.


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## ism (May 1, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Yes, also those rules date back to days when almost everyone was accessing the forum through the website, where it's relatively obvious which part of the forum you are in. But if you are using your phone to access the forum and using what's new to page through recent threads, it's not always very obvious which forum you are in. The forum is listed but not prominently and so when you are responding to posts it's relatively easy to forgot you aren't on the sample talk forum.


That's a good point. And "the rules" are also from the days where the landscape of sample libraries was a lot simpler - ie prior to the era of libraries like Tundra, Time Macro, EWC, Sunset Strings and now Tallinn. 


And there have been, historically, some very good discussions on commercial threads where people (not least myself) are trying to figure out, more or less "sure, it's sounds incredible, but what the hell *is* it?" by trying to place a new library in the existing conceptual landscape of what's preceded it. For instance, I talk a fair bit about Tundra and Time Macro and OACE on @Mike Greene 's Sunset strings commercial thread. And I think the thread and the value proposition of Sunset Strings benefit quite a bit from invoking these both as anchoring reference points, as well points of contrast that really hi-light what so new and singular about Sunset Strings. 


(OMG, I'm just pausing here for a moment to think about how amazing Sunset Strings is probably going to sound with Tallinn ... ). 


And also, I think when these rules were written (though I'm guessing here), most people would, all things being equal, probably have gone with either VSL or HWS as per taste. Or CSS or Mural. 


Libraries were expensive, and at least for what hobbiests there were at the time (I conjecture) it was much more of a zero sum game. (Even only about 5 years ago, I stumbled across vi-c while simply looking for a library to replace VSL SE as my orchestral library for the next 10 years ... ).


So this assumption about the nature of the commercial-thready medium has also changed. We're now living in the glorious long tail of sample library musicality. Especially for string libraries, for with I think we, collectively as the vi-c community, have largely established that the "you can never have too many strings libraries" is a truism - ie. a real thing, not wholly attributable to GAS.


That this truism applies to Tallinn's strings, is completely obvious - there's just no other library that's going to remotely take you were Tallinn's strings go. (And in 4 more days!) 


But if Dominus and EWC (and maybe Insolidus?) were the avant guard, maybe Tallinn will be the moment that formally writes the manifesto for the "you can never have too many choir libraries" revolution.


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## river angler (May 1, 2021)

... I think it's kind of futile to try and police a thread in terms of commercial competition. I don't see anything wrong with a rant at another library if the one being discussed provokes that kind of reaction- after all what are these forums for if not for discussion and conjecture regarding any new release?


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## Kony (May 1, 2021)

Just a reminder what the rules are for this section:

_Also, note that Commercial Announcements are a “safe zone” for the companies who post. Negative comments or discussion about competing libraries are not allowed. Sample Talk and all other areas of the forum are free game, of course, but in this section, we ask that the companies not have to deal with any conflict._


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## ism (May 1, 2021)

river angler said:


> ... I think it's kind of futile to try and police a thread in terms of commercial competition. I don't see anything wrong with a rant at another library if the one being discussed provokes that kind of reaction- after all what are these forums for if not for discussion and conjecture anyway regarding any new release?


No, there's a legitimate desire to allow sample library creators some space to promote their new libraries without being attacked savagely and toxically.

And I appreciate commercial threads as space to talk about what a new library is without having to wade through people attacking them before I've even figured out what they're supposed to be.

So there's a perfectly legitimate to discuss the etiquette of a commercial vs non-commercial thread. (Though, arguably, a commercial thread isn't the best place for this either  ).

But I also feel that a completely ruthless proscriptions against mentioning the existence of other libraries doesn't quite reflect the spirit (if not necessarily the letter) of the rules either.


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## river angler (May 1, 2021)

ism said:


> No, there's a legitimate desire to allow sample library creators some space to promote their new libraries without being attacked savagely and toxically.
> 
> And I appreciate commercial threads as space to talk about what a new library is without having to wade through people attacking them before I've even figured out what they're supposed to be.
> 
> ...


...kind of contradictory what you're saying here by your own admission! It can be tedious to have to wade through sections of any thread that gets sidetracked for whatever reason. It's the nature of the forum idiom: every now and then there's a tangent! As far as critique is concerned people can only go on what they've heard/seen especially with a pre release product... and as you say it would be ridiculous to ban mention of rivalling products!


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## river angler (May 1, 2021)

river angler said:


> ...kind of contradictory what you're saying here by your own admission! It can be tedious to have to wade through sections of any thread that gets sidetracked for whatever reason. It's the nature of the forum idiom: every now and then there's a tangent! As far as critique is concerned people can only go on what they've heard/seen especially with a pre release product... and as you say it would be ridiculous to ban mention of rivalling products!


...and hey! case in point.. aren't we going off on one here too!!!


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## river angler (May 1, 2021)

river angler said:


> ...and hey! case in point.. aren't we going off on one here too!!!


..Anyway! ...Getting back to Tallinn...


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## river angler (May 1, 2021)

Kony said:


> Just a reminder what the rules are for this section:
> 
> _Also, note that Commercial Announcements are a “safe zone” for the companies who post. Negative comments or discussion about competing libraries are not allowed. Sample Talk and all other areas of the forum are free game, of course, but in this section, we ask that the companies not have to deal with any conflict._


Point taken


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## river angler (May 1, 2021)

I just watched the OT walkthrough and Ben's showcase again. 

I actually see Tallinn as another unique flavour falling into the same roll as Time Micro/Macro do 
as far as the way I use these libraries...

I think it's the different subtle shades of timbre available in the strings, choir and organ in Tallinn that presents one of those extremely useful libraries that although offering a particular sonic character can still be used to great effect as part of a sum of all parts in many genres of full composition. 

It's not a library I would use on its own to produce a main theme unless the composition is exceptionally original and really demands that particular character but it will definitely work as a supportive roll well within main theme or underscore. 

Also my ears are telling me it has a refreshing effortless musicality that is very rare in the world of virtual instruments. There's nothing I've heard so far that sounds artificial or unnatural. Hence as well as working with it in the studio I look forward to using it live on stage too. 

One of OT's best efforts so far I think.


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## Frederick (May 2, 2021)

Ok, I've listened again to Seraphim by Benjamin Botkin and all of a sudden I pre-ordered. I was hypnotized I swear. Not my fault.


----------



## ism (May 2, 2021)

Another thought - I would *love*to have Tallinn on staffpad also.


----------



## Markrs (May 2, 2021)




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## Jett Hitt (May 2, 2021)

Markrs said:


>



Thank you for posting. My greatest concern about this library was the limited range of the two choirs. That suddenly expanded with this (final?) copy. It seems that a minor third has been added to both the top and bottom of the outer range. OT never seems to skimp on range, and again they didn't disappoint! Really looking forward to downloading this.


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## holywilly (May 2, 2021)

Markrs said:


>



This is pure evil! We have to wait a couple days more, arghhhh


----------



## Cheezus (May 2, 2021)

It’s gonna be a long 3 days.


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## Banquet (May 2, 2021)

Can those that pre-order also pre-download before the release date so it's at least ready to go?


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## ProfoundSilence (May 2, 2021)

Banquet said:


> Can those that pre-order also pre-download before the release date so it's at least ready to go?


No


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## Markrs (May 2, 2021)

@Daniel James has also had a play with Tallinn.


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## ProfoundSilence (May 2, 2021)

Bring back the original thumbnail, DJ you traitor!


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## ProfoundSilence (May 2, 2021)

@Daniel James when he realizes he got away with it, celebrating his traitorous ways



Daniel james laid back is bad for branding, must channel inner scotsman despite calming tallinn articulations

For the sake of preserving the internet, this is my artistic rendition of the energy I got out of the original


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## ism (May 2, 2021)

Not quite a walk through, but well worth a look:


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## Mason (May 3, 2021)

What is the range of the choir? Did they add some notes since the first video?


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## pfmusic (May 3, 2021)

Bought the library today and looking forward to trying it out. My first library from Orchestral Tools


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## river angler (May 3, 2021)

pfmusic said:


> Bought the library today and looking forward to trying it out. My first library from Orchestral Tools


...it won't be your last!


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## Evans (May 3, 2021)




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## lettucehat (May 3, 2021)

What is the final word on how deeply the strings are sampled, RR, dynamics, etc? I've followed sporadically but don't know if it was covered or answered by OT.


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## river angler (May 3, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> What is the final word on how deeply the strings are sampled, RR, dynamics, etc? I've followed sporadically but don't know if it was covered or answered by OT.


OT did chime in much earlier in this thread last week mentioning a couple of the string RR/dynamic layer counts. From what I remember I think it's the choirs that have the heavier count on this score.


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## river angler (May 3, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> What is the final word on how deeply the strings are sampled, RR, dynamics, etc? I've followed sporadically but don't know if it was covered or answered by OT.


Here you go...






Tallinn: Voices and strings. Single instruments available!


I'm probably going to pre-order, it really does sound lovely. I didn't pre-order LA Sessions, but it is an amazingly cool library. I predict much fun in your future!




vi-control.net




...no mention of the sustained articulations but I imagine they will probably be just a single dynamic layer


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## Evans (May 3, 2021)

Whatever. I give up trying to not give in. Pre-ordered.


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## ism (May 3, 2021)

Evans said:


> Whatever. I give up trying to not give in. Pre-ordered.


Good job though. I think I caved about 30s into the trailer.


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## jbuhler (May 3, 2021)

ism said:


> Good job though. I think I caved about 30s into the trailer.


Me, too, although I only actually ordered today. But, yeah, 30 seconds into the trailer I knew there was no way I wouldn’t be getting this.


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## Instrugramm (May 3, 2021)

Ordered today as well, was sort of on the edge about getting this or Jade but missed the Jade sale by a day.


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## Jett Hitt (May 3, 2021)

I knew I was going to buy it, but I made myself wait for the walkthrough.


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## Jett Hitt (May 3, 2021)

Mason said:


> What is the range of the choir? Did they add some notes since the first video?


They did. I think I saw the men go down to D2 and the woman up to C6.


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## CT (May 3, 2021)

Looks like I'll be able to download just in time to distract myself from potential unpleasantness of second vaccine shot. Already have something written, guess I'll see if I have the energy to put it together with the library.


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## Evans (May 3, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Looks like I'll be able to download just in time to distract myself from potential unpleasantness of second vaccine shot. Already have something written, guess I'll see if I have the energy to put it together with the library.


Congratulations! It's such a coin toss.


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## kgdrum (May 3, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Looks like I'll be able to download just in time to distract myself from potential unpleasantness of second vaccine shot. Already have something written, guess I'll see if I have the energy to put it together with the library.


fwiw the 2nd vaccine 💉 affected me about 6 hours after the shot and really only lasted about 5 or 6 hours.
I felt a bit tired the next day and besides a sore arm that was it.
Two months later I’m so glad I got the vaccine. 👍


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## jbuhler (May 3, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> fwiw the 2nd vaccine 💉 affected me about 6 hours after the shot and really only lasted about 5 or 6 hours.
> I felt a bit tired the next day and besides a sore arm that was it.
> Two months later I’m so glad I got the vaccine. 👍


Me, too, the second shot wasn't bad. Mostly I was just tired on day 2, felt a little under the weather, and had to take a nap. But I had a reasonably productive day otherwise.


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## kgdrum (May 3, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Me, too, the second shot wasn't bad. Mostly I was just tired on day 2, felt a little under the weather, and had to take a nap. But I had a reasonably productive day otherwise.


It’s almost funny the apprehension many people have with the reaction to the 2nd shot because the reaction shows that your body recognizes the threat and is responding.


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## The Singularity (May 3, 2021)

tried my hardest to resist, gave in, i dunno i felt like i was really going to regret not buying this at the 249($370CAD) price

most OT libraries are usually to expensive for me, but this one felt like too much at too good of a price to pass up, my 1st try with OT also


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## ProfoundSilence (May 3, 2021)

The Singularity said:


> tried my hardest to resist, gave in, i dunno i felt like i was really going to regret not buying this at the 249($370CAD) price
> 
> most OT libraries are usually to expensive for me, but this one felt like too much at too good of a price to pass up, my 1st try with OT also


OT has to be the most transparent when it comes to recording... I used to buy them thinking it was the room that sounded great, but it's really just them - their skills, and their mics. The organ is absolutely phenom sounding - and for my money, I literally had a track called "Organ Placeholder" for the moment OT actually released an organ.


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## SquirrelMan (May 3, 2021)

So is this thread about Tallinn or is it about the animal testing being done for the vaccine?


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## emilio_n (May 3, 2021)

Finally, I bought it.
I think this is my last purchase until BF. Too much GAS, but sound soooo good that I can't resist!


----------



## muziksculp (May 3, 2021)

*(( WARNING )) *

High GAS Levels can result from browsing this thread. 

Browse at your own risk.


----------



## emilio_n (May 3, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> *(( WARNING )) *
> 
> High GAS Levels can result from browsing this thread.
> 
> Browse at your own risk.


My second big acquisition in a week, so I am sorry for certain developer arriving late with the new library. I will need to wait until their first sales.

I think I will need to delete the "sample talking", The Commercial announcements" and "Deals" from my VI-Control main page... 🙃


----------



## Marco_D (May 4, 2021)

So, when is this going to be available for dowload for us mere mortals? I keep seeing people on YT who already have it, but the official page still says it will be available "soon".


----------



## muziksculp (May 4, 2021)

Marco_D said:


> So, when is this going to be available for dowload for us mere mortals? I keep seeing people on YT who already have it, but the official page still says it will be available "soon".


Cinco De Mayo


----------



## emilio_n (May 4, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Cinco De Mayo


@OrchestralTools , don't suppose to be available today?


----------



## Banquet (May 4, 2021)

Ah well, I couldn’t resist and just pre-ordered. Libraries like this don’t come around too often.


----------



## OrchestralTools (May 4, 2021)

emilio_n said:


> @OrchestralTools , don't suppose to be available today?


Not today @emilio_n, Tallinn will be released tomorrow (May 5) during the daytime in Berlin.

But as soon as we release Tallinn, the pre-order price will no longer be available...so to be safe, we say that pre-order ends at midnight—Los Angeles time...so around 9am CET.


----------



## fourier (May 4, 2021)

I currently have a "how to invest in a product you know you won't be able to use until August, but that looks awesome and is on a great sale for < 24h"- dilemma.


----------



## emilio_n (May 4, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> Not today @emilio_n, Tallinn will be released tomorrow (May 5) during the daytime in Berlin.
> 
> But as soon as we release Tallinn, the pre-order price will no longer be available...so to be safe, we say that pre-order ends at midnight—Los Angeles time...so around 9am CET.


Thanks!
Looking forward to download as soon is available


----------



## Marsen (May 4, 2021)

Couldn´t resist. 
I hope, I made the right decision. Especially interested in the organs & strings.


----------



## Francis Bourre (May 4, 2021)

Francis Bourre said:


> @OrchestralTools The library sounds amazing. Do you plan for the release to have fixed the artifact issues mentioned in Benjamin Botkin walkthrough?



Please @OrchestralTools could you answer this question? 
Another question, I got many Sine libraries, and I didn't see any updates for one of them. Is there a mechanism update in Sine which would allow to fix these issues later?


----------



## eli0s (May 4, 2021)

@OrchestralTools , is there a way to control which syllables are being triggered in the Choirs' Long & Short articulations? Or is it at random? The latter could be quite a challenge if someone is looking a consistent timing and sound.


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## river angler (May 4, 2021)

eli0s said:


> @OrchestralTools , is there a way to control which syllables are being triggered in the Choirs' Long & Short articulations? Or is it at random? The latter could be quite a challenge if someone is looking a consistent timing and sound.


I saw in one of the 3rd party video walkthroughs that the syllabals stay on the same one if you play legato but move to the next one when you don't. I think Ben's video may have covered it.


----------



## eli0s (May 4, 2021)

@river angler , thank you for your reply, I think I've noticed that, however, what I am particularly interested in is the initial consonants. In @Daniel James* ' *screen cast around 1:36' I feel like the syllables were falling behind in an unpredictable manner and each time he was playing back the part a different series of syllables were triggered. What I wish for is to be able to trigger the same syllables at any specific point.
I hope I am making sense!


----------



## Drundfunk (May 4, 2021)

eli0s said:


> @river angler , thank you for your reply, I think I've noticed that, however, what I am particularly interested in is the initial consonants. In @Daniel James* ' *screen cast around 1:36' I feel like the syllables were falling behind in an unpredictable manner and each time he was playing back the part a different series of syllables were triggered. What I wish for is to be able to trigger the same syllables at any specific point.
> I hope I am making sense!


I don't think that's possible. As I understand it it just cycles through the syllables while playing. So to get the same performance everytime, you'd need to manually cycle to the beginning of the syllables before you hit play (or find some workarounds. But usually those are kinda clunky). I can't count the times when I was tired af, exporting something close to a deadline, just to find out I didn't reset the syllable cycle in my choirs. Lots of fun!


----------



## Cheezus (May 4, 2021)

I think it should be relatively easy to set up the SINE player to select syllables using keyswitches:

1. Load the syllables articulation multiple times on the same channel in SINE player, once for each syllable you want.
2. Deactivate all but one syllable so there is a different syllable remaining in each one.
3. Use keyswitches to switch between them at will.


----------



## filipjonathan (May 4, 2021)

Cheezus said:


> I think it should be relatively easy to set up the SINE player to select syllables using keyswitches:
> 
> 1. Load the syllables articulation multiple times on the same channel in SINE player, once for each syllable you want.
> 2. Deactivate all but one syllable so there is a different syllable remaining in each one.
> 3. Use keyswitches to switch between them at will.


Maybe I can program their next library while we're at it. This is not a $50 library so workarounds like that don't really make sense.


----------



## Cheezus (May 4, 2021)

filipjonathan said:


> Maybe I can program their next library while we're at it. This is not a $50 library so workarounds like that don't really make sense.


It's not exactly the most elegant but as far as workarounds go it's pretty painless and takes less than a minute to set up. If your DAW supports labeling keyswitches and saving instrument presets there's little to no effort involved beyond initial setup either.


----------



## Drundfunk (May 4, 2021)

Cheezus said:


> I think it should be relatively easy to set up the SINE player to select syllables using keyswitches:
> 
> 1. Load the syllables articulation multiple times on the same channel in SINE player, once for each syllable you want.
> 2. Deactivate all but one syllable so there is a different syllable remaining in each one.
> 3. Use keyswitches to switch between them at will.


Yeah, something like that.


----------



## filipjonathan (May 4, 2021)

Cheezus said:


> It's not exactly the most elegant but as far as workarounds go it's pretty painless and takes less than a minute to set up. If your DAW supports labeling keyswitches and saving instrument presets there's little to no effort involved beyond initial setup either.


Sure. For a cheap library. Not a $399 one.


----------



## Cheezus (May 4, 2021)

filipjonathan said:


> Sure. For a cheap library. Not a $399 one.


Fair enough. Not disagreeing, just trying to offer a solution.


----------



## river angler (May 4, 2021)

filipjonathan said:


> Maybe I can program their next library while we're at it. This is not a $50 library so workarounds like that don't really make sense.


I sympathise with your sentiments here and yes! it could appear like a rather brash oversight on Orchestral Tools part however they have probably been more focussed on the base sonics of this library which for the most part are superb and offered at a fair price.

I have confidence orchestral Tools will update Tallinn and probably enhance this aspect of the library along with other little niggles users will no doubt querie! 

Very few libraries are perfect from day one!


----------



## CT (May 4, 2021)

filipjonathan said:


> Sure. For a cheap library. Not a $399 one.


Please, this is a commercial thread. Someone think of the children!


----------



## Evans (May 4, 2021)

*Step 1:* Look at what the library does and does not offer.
*Step 2:* Gain clarity where you lack information.
*Step 3: *Assess if the capabilities match the price.
*Step 4: *Choose to not gripe about your personal assessment in the official Commercial thread.

"Cheap" or "expensive" is not only a personal assessment based capability value, it's also relative based on someone's income.


----------



## filipjonathan (May 4, 2021)

Sorry guys, didn't mean to come off salty or mean. I just wanted to say that considering the OT reputation and their prices, something like syllable keyswitching should be a part of the library. Especially at this price. And objectively speaking, this is _not _a cheap library. For some, it might be a LOT, and for others not that much but it's still not cheap and that's a fact. And I apologize once again for commenting in the commercial thread.


----------



## eli0s (May 4, 2021)

The official demo "Stamen" by Susanne Hardt somehow sounds like it has very specific "lyrics" and it doesn't feel random at all! That's why I was hoping for a way to control the syllables.
Umbra, a 79€ library, has variations in the Humming mans Swells articulations, using CC4.
This would be a very nice way to choose between syllables in Tallinn. Perhaps in a future update..? I wish @OrchestralTools could chime in on this.


----------



## David Kudell (May 4, 2021)

filipjonathan said:


> Sorry guys, didn't mean to come off salty or mean. I just wanted to say that considering the OT reputation and their prices, something like syllable keyswitching should be a part of the library. Especially at this price. And objectively speaking, this is _not _a cheap library. For some, it might be a LOT, and for others not that much but it's still not cheap and that's a fact. And I apologize once again for commenting in the commercial thread.


Definitely if you think it should be included by default, just email the suggestion to OT support as they're more likely to see your suggestion. Also, the method described above does work well - I just tried it and it took me all of 2 minutes to set up, and can be saved as a user patch. But personally I hate dealing with key switches and one of the best things about this choir it just sounds good with no fuss. 

There are other useful round robin features built into Sine as well, you can set it to reset the syllables after a certain amount of seconds of idle, so you can have predictable phrases that way. You can also turn on Random RR's and you can click and disable any of the RR's you don't like on the little wheel provided.


----------



## Jackdaw (May 4, 2021)

Basic reason for that syllable thingie is that all OT choirs work the same way, be it Ark1, Ark 2 whatnot. At least all OT choirs I have work exactly that way and it is annoying expecially when some syllables have noticeable sibilance etc. But I understand that they didn't do any engine overhauls for Tallinn. But it would be good idea for them at some point to have a serious look at it.


----------



## Jett Hitt (May 4, 2021)

So I saw somewhere that they said the latest version of SINE is required. Does that mean the existing version or should we expect an update to SINE tomorrow when Tallinn is released?


----------



## Daniel James (May 4, 2021)

eli0s said:


> @river angler , thank you for your reply, I think I've noticed that, however, what I am particularly interested in is the initial consonants. In @Daniel James* ' *screen cast around 1:36' I feel like the syllables were falling behind in an unpredictable manner and each time he was playing back the part a different series of syllables were triggered. What I wish for is to be able to trigger the same syllables at any specific point.
> I hope I am making sense!


I would love a 'syllable reset keyswitch' so you could put a keyswitch at the start of your choir part which sets the loop back to the first syllable. That way you would always get the same phrases. Or maybe even a keyswitch for each syllable that allows you to start the loop from THAT syllable?

-DJ


----------



## FireGS (May 4, 2021)

Daniel James said:


> I would love a 'syllable reset keyswitch' so you could put a keyswitch at the start of your choir part which sets the loop back to the first syllable. That way you would always get the same phrases. Or maybe even a keyswitch for each syllable that allows you to start the loop from THAT syllable?
> 
> -DJ


I seriously cannot believe that this *ISNT* a feature when dealing with syllables in this manner. If I'm working on a track and I want to render it offline, if I don't wait the requisite number of seconds before rendering, the whole tracks syllables will be off? That's stupid.


----------



## fourier (May 4, 2021)

Purchased. The VAT and how weak the kroner is to euro is painful to deal with for my wallet, but can't blame OT for that. From everything I've listened to of demos and walkthroughs the last week it sounds amazing and quite unique to me.


----------



## Fever Phoenix (May 4, 2021)

Ok, ok.. last minute purchase executed. I can go to bed now, GAS is (temporarely) satisfied..

On a serious note: @OrchestralTools : Tallinn sounds beautiful and I hope it will help me to finally bond with the Sine Player


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## Drundfunk (May 4, 2021)

Daniel James said:


> I would love a 'syllable reset keyswitch' so you could put a keyswitch at the start of your choir part which sets the loop back to the first syllable. That way you would always get the same phrases. Or maybe even a keyswitch for each syllable that allows you to start the loop from THAT syllable?
> 
> -DJ


That's actually a very good solution and should be quite easy to implement.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (May 4, 2021)

Drundfunk said:


> That's actually a very good solution and should be quite easy to implement.


While I do like it in oceania, I don't think adding this into sine is going to be "quite easy". 

Certainly not when tons of much more useful functionality is still on the road map, a detour for that isn't likely. 

My solution? Use the standard patch for writing, and then each syllable on thier own midi channels, so you can play it in, select the notes you want on whatever syllable and just switch the channel. This is a best of both worlds imo.


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## msjdowner (May 5, 2021)

Now out of pre-order - managed to curb the GAS on this one just about, and decided to see what the female choir would cost by itself. Was expecting 100+ Euros, but pleasantly surprised that it's only 76 Euros  (same price as most of the string sections and the main organ). Instant buy.


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## Frederick (May 5, 2021)

Downloading...


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## emilio_n (May 5, 2021)

Frederick said:


> Downloading...


Me too!
Quite fast by the moment, actually.


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## Jackdaw (May 5, 2021)

msjdowner said:


> Now out of pre-order - managed to curb the GAS on this one just about, and decided to see what the female choir would cost by itself. Was expecting 100+ Euros, but pleasantly surprised that it's only 76 Euros  (same price as most of the string sections and the main organ). Instant buy.


If thats 76€ + VAT then it will still be 100€ :/


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## msjdowner (May 5, 2021)

Not charged VAT here in the UK for whatever legal reason - cost me £69 via paypal. Happy with that!


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## ProfoundSilence (May 5, 2021)

msjdowner said:


> Not charged VAT here in the UK for whatever legal reason - cost me £69 via paypal. Happy with that!


now you know why we tossed all that tea into the harbor >


as for me, going to download this organ first - then start the rest of the library, im pretty sure I'm alone in this regard haha


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## emilio_n (May 5, 2021)

30 minutes playing with the library.
The sound is beautiful and inspiring. I think is quite flexible to write things out of the "church" territory.


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## Sunny Schramm (May 5, 2021)

msjdowner said:


> Now out of pre-order - managed to curb the GAS on this one just about, and decided to see what the female choir would cost by itself. Was expecting 100+ Euros, but pleasantly surprised that it's only 76 Euros  (same price as most of the string sections and the main organ). Instant buy.


yep - great surprise!


----------



## ProfoundSilence (May 5, 2021)

just for fun



kinda hilarious getting drop outs with a whopping 10mb patch, but I was using windows audio(not asio, my daw was open in the background), downloading, and moving a bunch of stuff to the same drive.


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## M0rdechai (May 5, 2021)

I'm new to Sine, just installed to see if I want to buy the organ separately.
It looks like I can only buy the "Manuals" part. not the "Pedals". is that correct?
and if so.. why? why keep those pedals to the collection only?


----------



## pcohen12 (May 5, 2021)

M0rdechai said:


> I'm new to Sine, just installed to see if I want to buy the organ separately.
> It looks like I can only buy the "Manuals" part. not the "Pedals". is that correct?
> and if so.. why? why keep those pedals to the collection only?


@M0rdechai I believe the "Main Organ" patch available for purchase combines both manuals and pedals into one patch (though yes, it's definitely confusing from the articulations list). They offer the manuals/pedals as separate patches for more flexibility, but I'd imagine the combination one meets the average user's needs!


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## OT_Tobias (May 5, 2021)

Indeed, the "Main/Choir" instruments combine both.
Right now we can't automatically assign the other two to you when you buy just the single instrument, but just send an email to [email protected] and we'll assign the Manuals/Pedal instruments.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (May 5, 2021)




----------



## prodigalson (May 5, 2021)

All I can say is..._Bought for the strings, stayed for the choir. _

Holy moly, what a time to live in when legato vocals can sound this pure, playable and inspiring.


----------



## Marsen (May 5, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> just for fun
> 
> 
> 
> kinda hilarious getting drop outs with a whopping 10mb patch, but I was using windows audio(not asio, my daw was open in the background), downloading, and moving a bunch of stuff to the same drive.





ProfoundSilence said:


>



This sounds incredible! Downloading now...


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## ProfoundSilence (May 5, 2021)

prodigalson said:


> All I can say is..._Bought for the strings, stayed for the choir. _
> 
> Holy moly, what a time to live in when legato vocals can sound this pure, playable and inspiring.




going to have to agree.

I let my mic mix there, incase anyone wants to how how I got that mix(not that I spent any real amount of time on it)


----------



## ism (May 5, 2021)

First noodle impression: Yep, this is some superb sampling here.

In particular, the "bloom" effect of the crescendo on the voices is exquisitely performed, recorded, scripted (and whatever other technical/magical/witchcraft elements such sampling requires) right on the the p - mp dynamic. There's just no other library that captures this quite so exquisitely at quite this dynamic.

Venus' does a nice mp - f cross fade, which makes good for an epic "bloom" (if you're into that sort of thing). And EWC is somehow different, and across more dynamics. It's also entirely exquisite, but it isn't focused quite so specifically on this particular p-mp dynamic point. I can't wait to experiment with blending the two. Maybe let's discuss this more on a non-commercial thread.

Same with the strings. And it strikes me that the Tallinn Strings are to the Special Bows Sul Tasto, what the Tallinn voices are the EWC. Again 2 vs 3 dynamics layers, but the laser focus of the former on capturing the p-mp with exquisite nuance is an entirely to-die-for sweet spot that I've just not experienced captured with such detail and nuance before.


In any event, vis-a-vis the commercial nature of this thread, reducing this to purely consumer decision making: truly this is the mother of all no-brainers.


----------



## dzilizzi (May 5, 2021)

M0rdechai said:


> I'm new to Sine, just installed to see if I want to buy the organ separately.
> It looks like I can only buy the "Manuals" part. not the "Pedals". is that correct?
> and if so.. why? why keep those pedals to the collection only?


Thanks for posting this. I was curious since I bought the collection for just the organ as well. I'm glad to know I made a good choice.


----------



## eli0s (May 5, 2021)

Bought it after all!

Slightly off topic - Is there a fast way to change all microphone output channels at the same time? I am not talking about the Mic Remote, I mean having (for example) two instruments, a women choir and a men's choir, and set all mics of the women choir to output 3/4 and all mics of the men choir to output 5/6.
I find the Sine Players' mixer tab a bit confusing...


----------



## Frederik (May 5, 2021)

Drundfunk said:


> I don't think that's possible. As I understand it it just cycles through the syllables while playing. So to get the same performance everytime, you'd need to manually cycle to the beginning of the syllables before you hit play (or find some workarounds. But usually those are kinda clunky). I can't count the times when I was tired af, exporting something close to a deadline, just to find out I didn't reset the syllable cycle in my choirs. Lots of fun!


I'm a bit late to the party but just shortly to clear this up, it will usually play back the same each time you start over. There is an automatic repitition reset value in SINE. This means you don't have to cycle manually back to the beginning. 
The value is set to 5 seconds for me in Tallinn, if you want this to happen quicker, you can set that value lower in the RR tab on the bottom right.


----------



## Robin (May 5, 2021)

I'm getting weird artifacts in the legato transitions on all downwards minor thirds on the violins on all mics (particularly obvious on the Trees). Most prominent in the octave above middle c but every minor third downwards has it, sounds like another note ringing into the transition. Can anyone confirm?


----------



## Baronvonheadless (May 5, 2021)

Just bought the two choirs, which mics (if I don't download them all) do u suggest?

I'm thinking 3-4 mics tops


----------



## ism (May 5, 2021)

Always start with close and tree, I'd say.


----------



## MA-Simon (May 5, 2021)

Question for buying individual Instruments on all collections. If I buy Individual sections, does it count toward the full collection price?


----------



## Evans (May 5, 2021)

Tinkering around for a few minutes this morning, the additional mics beyond a typical close/tree/spot REALLY open up the recording space on this library.


----------



## Drundfunk (May 5, 2021)

Frederik said:


> I'm a bit late to the party but just shortly to clear this up, it will usually play back the same each time you start over. There is an automatic repitition reset value in SINE. This means you don't have to cycle manually back to the beginning.
> The value is set to 5 seconds for me in Tallinn, if you want this to happen quicker, you can set that value lower in the RR tab on the bottom right.


Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## Baronvonheadless (May 5, 2021)

ism said:


> ism said:
> 
> 
> > Always start with close and tree, I'd say.


Right on, do you like the cardiod or omni tree better? What is OT's Spot mic btw?


----------



## Baronvonheadless (May 5, 2021)

Evans said:


> Tinkering around for a few minutes this morning, the additional mics beyond a typical close/tree/spot REALLY open up the recording space on this library.


Yeah I feel like with the choirs surround is a must just to have that openness. Do you have a favorite combination yet? I can always download more later, I'm just planning on upgrading to BBC Pro later this month and trying to save some space.
Thanks!


----------



## Baronvonheadless (May 5, 2021)

I went with Spot, Close AB, AB Omni, Tree Card, and SUR for now


----------



## Toecutter (May 5, 2021)

Robin said:


> I'm getting weird artifacts in the legato transitions on all downwards minor thirds on the violins on all mics (particularly obvious on the Trees). Most prominent in the octave above middle c but every minor third downwards has it, sounds like another note ringing into the transition. Can anyone confirm?


This? 

34:56 when he plays Bb to G If so yes can confirm.


----------



## OrchestralTools (May 5, 2021)

Tallinn owners—we hope you all enjoy creating with this unique collection. Your comments and feedback have been great to read so far. Make sure to tag us in your creations—we'd love to share with the wider Tallinn team (including the choir, orchestra, and Michael Pärt).

We're happy to officially announce that Tallinn is OUT NOW! 
This also means that single instruments are available too—starting from €48 +VAT.

If you missed the pre-order offer—don't worry.
There's an intro offer until May 19, 2021—only €299 + VAT (regular price €399 + VAT).

Find out more here:








Tallinn


The evocative sound of a unique music culture, bridging a thousand years from the ancient to the contemporary. Tallinn features the world-famous Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir and Tallinn Chamber Orchestra plus two organs—all recorded in the iconic Niguliste church. With a pure, wintry...




www.orchestraltools.com





If you have any questions re Tallinn let us know.

Best,

OT


----------



## OrchestralTools (May 5, 2021)

MA-Simon said:


> Question for buying individual Instruments on all collections. If I buy Individual sections, does it count toward the full collection price?


Yes. If you buy a single instrument (or two, or more) from a collection then you will notice the price to 'complete' your collection will reduce.
You have to be logged in to see this price however, and you will notice the price change on the collection page (top right corner).


----------



## MA-Simon (May 5, 2021)

Edit: because


----------



## jbuhler (May 5, 2021)

MA-Simon said:


> Thank you! I thought it might be only a percentage rather then the full value.


I deleted my post because it was mostly redundant with the OT response.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (May 5, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I deleted my post because it was mostly redundant with the OT response.


I'm crocodile redundee and I'm here to tell you that your comment stays, frozen in a block of internet.


----------



## jbuhler (May 5, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I'm crocodile redundee and I'm here to tell you that your comment stays, frozen in a block of internet.


It seems so! Not that it matters. It just seemed dumb to post more or less what OT had posted a few minutes earlier.


----------



## LamaRose (May 5, 2021)

Robin said:


> I'm getting weird artifacts in the legato transitions on all downwards minor thirds on the violins on all mics (particularly obvious on the Trees). Most prominent in the octave above middle c but every minor third downwards has it, sounds like another note ringing into the transition. Can anyone confirm?


I can hear it as well... maybe phasing?


----------



## Robin (May 5, 2021)

LamaRose said:


> I can hear it as well... maybe phasing?


I'm pretty sure it's not phasing but a programming bug.


----------



## muddyblue (May 5, 2021)

... the organ & choir sounds really georgeous! It was the right decision!


----------



## Toecutter (May 5, 2021)

Robin said:


> I'm pretty sure it's not phasing but a programming bug.


Yes, minor 3rds are overlapping instead of having a smooth legato transition. Creates this weird bump effect. Funny how none of the testers or streamers spotted this, it's pretty obvious after you play the violin a few seconds... I had just downloaded and installed the library when you mentioned it!


----------



## jbuhler (May 5, 2021)

Robin said:


> I'm pretty sure it's not phasing but a programming bug.


If it's what I'm hearing, it's like a faint short sounding along with the new note.


----------



## CT (May 5, 2021)

Playing through now. Very nice stuff so far. Maybe a few things that could be ironed out, but I don't mind at all. It's an immediate hit for me.

Recording quality is amazing, and the mics are really useful. With this sort of ensemble and acoustic I think I prefer one of the two AB pairs more than the trees as the main sound but it's incredibly flexible in any case.


----------



## A minor (May 5, 2021)

Cheezus said:


> I think it should be relatively easy to set up the SINE player to select syllables using keyswitches:
> 
> 1. Load the syllables articulation multiple times on the same channel in SINE player, once for each syllable you want.
> 2. Deactivate all but one syllable so there is a different syllable remaining in each one.
> 3. Use keyswitches to switch between them at will.


Cheezus, would you be willing to show a screen shot of this. I don’t understand how you can pick syllables. Are there different syllables contained in the “Sustains + LEG“ articulation? 
Thank you.


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## Cheezus (May 5, 2021)

A minor said:


> Cheezus, would you be willing to show a screen shot of this. I don’t understand how you can pick syllables. Are there different syllables contained in the “Sustains + LEG“ articulation?
> Thank you.


Load Syllables Long or Syllables Short and deactivate all the RR's except the first one on the wheel below. Duplicate it and activate only the next one on the wheel. Duplicate each one the same way, activating only the next RR on the wheel until you have the full set of 12 syllables (each RR is a syllable) each assigned to a separate keyswitch.






Updated with GIF


----------



## A minor (May 5, 2021)

Cheezus said:


> Load Syllables Long or Syllables Short and deactivate all the RR's except the first one on the wheel below. Duplicate it and activate only the next one on the wheel. Duplicate each one the same way, activating only the next RR on the wheel until you have the full set of 12 syllables (each RR is a syllable) each assigned to a separate keyswitch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I get now. The key is knowing that each syllable is a different RR. And /Or each RR is a different syllable. That GIF is nice too. Thank you.


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## babylonwaves (May 5, 2021)

Cheezus said:


> Load Syllables Long or Syllables Short and deactivate all the RR's except the first one on the wheel below.


that's a really good tip. thank you!


----------



## ProfoundSilence (May 5, 2021)

I'd like to know how you made the GIF if I'm honest. Would be nifty for stuff I don't want to spam as unlisted youtube videos


----------



## Cheezus (May 5, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I'd like to know how you made the GIF if I'm honest. Would be nifty for stuff I don't want to spam as unlisted youtube videos


I saw other people do it around here before so decided to find out for myself today. Found this software:








ScreenToGif - Record your screen, edit and save as a gif or video


Free screen recorder tool. Record, edit and save as a gif or video.




www.screentogif.com





Free and really easy


----------



## Marsen (May 5, 2021)

I thought it´s the organ, but it´s the choir; Halleluja @OrchestralTools !

Buttersmooth with the whole room in vibration. My personal star is mens choir (women are fantastic too).
Your fingers are flowing over the keyboard whether maestro or butcher- it´s just sounds great.

An Amen to this!

There´s a low rumble in the choir samples, which I first found kinda strange. 
Realizing, this is the room, I see it supports the feeling to be right now in this church. Same goes for the organ.
But if used in a more dense arrangement, I would just lowcut this.

The only cons for me now is a harsh tone in the more upper mids of the female choir, which can be tamed out with some eq (Dirk also mentioned it in his walkthrough). I guess its not much of a problem.
Another are the syllables, which starts with "s". If you hold a chord and change just one note while still holding the rest, this one note triggers an "s" again, making it a bees symphony.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (May 5, 2021)

Marsen said:


> I thought it´s the organ, but it´s the choir; Halleluja @OrchestralTools !
> 
> Buttersmooth with the whole room in vibration. My personal star is mens choir (women are fantastic too).
> Your fingers are flowing over the keyboard whether maestro or butcher- it´s just sounds great.
> ...


1.) I'd use the microphones before touching EQ. 

2.) if S one bothers you - you can actually de-activate that round robin entirely.


----------



## Marsen (May 5, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> 1.) I'd use the microphones before touching EQ.
> 
> 2.) if S one bothers you - you can actually de-activate that round robin entirely.


Yes, I will have more time with the mic-setting.
There´s not just one, maybe 3 in the longs? But yeah, this could be a workaround.


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## Jotto (May 5, 2021)

The individual instruments are just imo way to expensive. Around 100€ for one instrument? Forget IT


----------



## Robin (May 5, 2021)

Robin said:


> I'm getting weird artifacts in the legato transitions on all downwards minor thirds on the violins on all mics (particularly obvious on the Trees). Most prominent in the octave above middle c but every minor third downwards has it, sounds like another note ringing into the transition. Can anyone confirm?


After playing a bit more around with it this problem seems to be in every legato patch mainly audible in the octave above middle c and only on descending minor thirds. @OrchestralTools Are you already aware of this issue?


----------



## jbuhler (May 5, 2021)

Robin said:


> After playing a bit more around with it this problem seems to be in every legato patch mainly audible in the octave above middle c and only on descending minor thirds. @OrchestralTools Are you already aware of this issue?


Have you contacted support? That's a better way to report bugs.


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## Sensium (May 5, 2021)

This library is in beta and has nothing to do with a full product from my point of view. I think that Mr. Schwarzer got the money in his head. Very disappointing product.


----------



## jbuhler (May 5, 2021)

What a weird post. So far I'm liking everything about Tallinn, and it's about the least buggy new OT release I've had in recent years.


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## Robin (May 5, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Have you contacted support? That's a better way to report bugs.


I just did.


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## Robin (May 5, 2021)

Sensium said:


> This library is in beta and has nothing to do with a full product from my point of view. I think that Mr. Schwarzer got the money in his head. Very disappointing product.


Care to elaborate?


----------



## Flyo (May 5, 2021)

Really wish that @OrchestralTools do a full vowels choir library with this same choir on same church. The sound is lovely but it’s quite limited. Future update?


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## CT (May 5, 2021)

Quick test of some simple organ stuff before dinner. Just the surround mics, no reverb! Damn....


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## ProfoundSilence (May 5, 2021)

Marsen said:


> Yes, I will have more time with the mic-setting.
> There´s not just one, maybe 3 in the longs? But yeah, this could be a workaround.


what I will probably do is make 2 seperate patches with more consonant syllables vs less consonant.


Mike T said:


> Quick test of some simple organ stuff before dinner. Just the surround mic, no reverb! Damn....



Yeah I've been playing the organ all day. 

I could share my mic settings, but I think I'm going to make seperate ones for each manual I decide to use


----------



## Toecutter (May 5, 2021)

Sensium said:


> This library is in beta and has nothing to do with a full product from my point of view. I think that Mr. Schwarzer got the money in his head. Very disappointing product.


Dude, come on, shut up! Show some class, not only this is far from true, it's not a cool thing to say on a commercial announcement thread. Having played with the library for a few hours, it's one of the most inspiring and carefully done libraries by OT. You must be pissed about some bugs, and yea there are some but can you share exactly what is going on instead of saying some absurd stuff about Hendrik? Report to OT?


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## Instrugramm (May 5, 2021)

After some small issues with Sine I got it working and as expected it's worth every penny, the latest Spitfire and OT releases really outshine a lot of their older libraries when it comes to sound and smoothness without losing character, well done!


----------



## jneebz (May 5, 2021)

I don’t think I’ve ever been so torn about purchasing a library. As a musician, I can appreciate the tones and beautiful timbres I’m hearing...but just not sure how much I’d actually use it. Hmmmmm....


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## ProfoundSilence (May 5, 2021)

jneebz said:


> I don’t think I’ve ever been so torn about purchasing a library. As a musician, I can appreciate the tones and beautiful timbres I’m hearing...but just not sure how much I’d actually use it. Hmmmmm....


utility my friend.

I've had so many instances where I really liked the idea of a library enough to buy it - even if I wasn't going to use it. Nowaways I still do that, I just set a limit for how much I'm willing to spend on something I don't plan on using.

I'd have spent 200$ on the organ, I wanted a good organ - I now have an awesome organ, and I can play with the rest of the library well under my "for fun purchase" limit. Infact - I have used exactly 1 articulations from the strings even noodling... the rest of the strings I haven't even openned because I've spent most of the day jamming away on the main organ and the female choir - I haven't even touched the rest of the library.

my "because I like it even if I wont use it" limit is ~100-200$. This has prevented me from picking up phoenix/jade - but for the most part it serves me well. the choirs are extremely usable - the "mmm" sustains and legato are going to be a secret weapon... but ultimately, I'd ask yourself if you can fit any of it into your template, and if you can - the rest is just a bonus.


----------



## reids (May 5, 2021)

Robin said:


> I just did.


Hope @OrchestralTools get back to you about these artifacts and are working on a update fix. Benjamin Botkin mentioned he was hearing some artifacts as well but his was a beta version for Tallinn which I hoped was fixed by the time this library released.


----------



## jneebz (May 5, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> utility my friend.
> 
> I've had so many instances where I really liked the idea of a library enough to buy it - even if I wasn't going to use it. Nowaways I still do that, I just set a limit for how much I'm willing to spend on something I don't plan on using.
> 
> ...


Man, talk about hitting the nail on the head. This is exactly it. Dammit. $350....ASCAP international royalties coming soon......ahhhhhhhhhhrghhhh


----------



## jneebz (May 5, 2021)

I own SCS and Time Macro. Wondering if I could get close to this sound with those....limited choir artics though


----------



## Baronvonheadless (May 5, 2021)

Here's todays work with the new choirs, composed this short piece to showcase the choir and got carried away with my winds haha!


----------



## holywilly (May 5, 2021)

Thanks @OrchestralTools for putting up this beautiful beautiful library, it’s such a joy to work with. I’m looking forward to upcoming character releases, BRAVO!


----------



## ProfoundSilence (May 5, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Thanks @OrchestralTools for putting up this beautiful beautiful library, it’s such a joy to work with. I’m looking forward to upcoming character releases, BRAVO!


I agree but can we PLEASE sample some bowed lyres, bagpipes - and other northern european folk instruments?!



cmon' wardruna toolkit. Just find a nice dank cave in norway and sample me a goat horn.


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## CT (May 5, 2021)

I'll probably buy anything else as long as it's recorded in this same sort of space....

Here's a question, I downloaded everything except the two manual/pedal combined organ patches, because I think I'll always want to control those separately. Are those different recordings, or just the separate patches stacked like I assumed? Don't want to miss out on any actually unique sample content.


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## ProfoundSilence (May 5, 2021)

Mike T said:


> I'll probably buy anything else as long as it's recorded in this same sort of space....
> 
> Here's a question, I downloaded everything except the two manual/pedal combined organ patches, because I think I'll always want to control those separately. Are those different recordings, or just the separate patches stacked like I assumed? Don't want to miss out on any actually unique sample content.


I'm not sure, but I'd bet for practical reasons they aren't different samples. 

Probably just for convenience... I just played around a little with them only because you said something(I too left them split the whole time) and I certainly plan on sticking to keeping them seperate 

plus the mic position control on each one will be invaluable to me.


----------



## holywilly (May 5, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I agree but can we PLEASE sample some bowed lyres, bagpipes - and other northern european folk instruments?!
> 
> 
> 
> cmon' wardruna toolkit. Just find a nice dank cave in norway and sample me a goat horn.



Please sample viola da gamba in a cave :D


----------



## AnhrithmonGelasma (May 5, 2021)

jneebz said:


> I don’t think I’ve ever been so torn about purchasing a library. As a musician, I can appreciate the tones and beautiful timbres I’m hearing...but just not sure how much I’d actually use it. Hmmmmm....


For the individual instruments they did a great job of pricing them about 30% beyond the highest I'd consider paying given my likelihood of actually using them and my interest level in this particular style. Too bad the 25% off sale doesn't apply to individual instruments.


----------



## Sunny Schramm (May 5, 2021)

jneebz said:


> I own SCS and Time Macro. Wondering if I could get close to this sound with those....limited choir artics though


I think so. I was a little disappointed from Tallinn´s "Mmh"-Articulation and like the "Nnh" from Time Macro much much more - from an emotional and melancholic perspective. Also SCS has so much to over - maybe an Update to the Pro-Version will help to get a smoother, more beautiful sound and playability if the mic´s of the normal version sound kind of too harsh for you.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (May 5, 2021)

AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> For the individual instruments they did a great job of pricing them about 30% beyond the highest I'd consider paying given my likelihood of actually using them and my interest level in this particular style. Too bad the 25% off sale doesn't apply to individual instruments.


Well it's not for everyone, a bit of a unique curiosity library - save those pennies for the next thing you need if money is that tight.


----------



## CT (May 5, 2021)

I don't know if it's just the sleep-deprived/vaccinated stupor I'm in but I can not figure out what's going on with some of the syllables' timing; seems they are just all cut a bit differently based on the nature of what's being sung? I like not having that stuff trimmed off, but it does make for some guesswork with performance/quantizing unless there's some documentation of the delays somewhere, or some SINE function I'm not aware of. Some releases also seem oddly truncated, not just on the choir.

Still sounds really nice though even when just screwing around with some chords. Goodnight.


----------



## MusicalWhiskey (May 6, 2021)

Robin said:


> I'm getting weird artifacts in the legato transitions on all downwards minor thirds on the violins on all mics (particularly obvious on the Trees). Most prominent in the octave above middle c but every minor third downwards has it, sounds like another note ringing into the transition. Can anyone confirm?


+1 for the strange violin legato sound issues. I’ll send a report to OT as well.

Other than that, the library sounds incredible! Very inspiring. I do hope they can get that issue ironed out.


----------



## Robin (May 6, 2021)

MusicalWhiskey said:


> +1 for the strange violin legato sound issues. I’ll send a report to OT as well.
> 
> Other than that, the library sounds incredible! Very inspiring. I do hope they can get that issue ironed out.


I heard back from OT support:



> I have added this to our issue tracker - it actually seems the transitions were played that way, as there is no mapping error.
> We will investigate as to why all minor 3rds seem to be affected.


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## Drundfunk (May 6, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I agree but can we PLEASE sample some bowed lyres, bagpipes - and other northern european folk instruments?!
> 
> 
> 
> cmon' wardruna toolkit. Just find a nice dank cave in norway and sample me a goat horn.



Yes please! @OrchestralTools please do this next!


----------



## fourier (May 6, 2021)

Drundfunk said:


> Yes please! @OrchestralTools please do this next!


I could always reach out to the professors at our technical university in Trondheim and suggest this as a possible master thesis for students at the institute for creative music technology. If there are sought-after nordic instruments to be sampled - if not on the professional level of OT - I'm sure this would present a very interesting task, thesis and output for the community - and for nordic folk lore/traditions.

Or perhaps OT can contact Sissel, like Disney did: 

(PS perhaps not a fitting digression on a commercial announcement thread - moderators, feel free to delete if that's the case)


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## OrchestralTools (May 6, 2021)

We're looking into these reports regarding the violin legato patches further, but regarding the minor third transitions: They are mapped and tuned correctly—so this could be bowing noises. But like we said, we're investigating as we speak and we will provide more info on this soon.

A big thank you to everyone who contacted support, and to everyone who urged others to contact support also. This really helps us keep across things.

Best,

OT


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## Robin (May 6, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> They are mapped and tuned correctly—so this could be bowing noises.


This problem appears also on the choirs legatos in exactly the same way, so that would rule out the bowing noise. On every minor third down, for a brief moment you hear a note a major third below the target note.


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## ism (May 6, 2021)

I was able to reproduce this artifact. It's a bit odd. But also kind of pretty.


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## jbuhler (May 6, 2021)

Robin said:


> This problem appears also on the choirs legatos in exactly the same way, so that would rule out the bowing noise. On every minor third down, for a brief moment you hear a note a major third below the target note.


Again, be sure to report this new information, that it also happens with the choir, to OT.


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## Instrugramm (May 6, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I agree but can we PLEASE sample some bowed lyres, bagpipes - and other northern european folk instruments?!
> 
> 
> 
> cmon' wardruna toolkit. Just find a nice dank cave in norway and sample me a goat horn.



Hardly possible to sample, Taglharpas produce their sound due to the multiple strings that you play together (including one open string depending on your tuning) and they're very limited in scope (composing intricate pieces is quite a challenge). It's always a struggle to get a good sound recording the instrument on its own, getting a cohesive sound while bowing a single string of horse hair is nearly impossible. Harps on the other hand are easy to sample. (I do love my Kravik Lyra to bits and like to just noodle around on it).


----------



## bvaughn0402 (May 6, 2021)

@OrchestralTools any possibility you guys might post up a visual/pic of the mic options (particularly for this, but in general). I find that I'm becoming more visual the older I get, and "seeing" where these mics are placed in a space help me understand your options better.


----------



## Robin (May 6, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Again, be sure to report this new information, that it also happens with the choir, to OT.


I did report it exactly like that in my original report to them.


----------



## ism (May 6, 2021)

No great compositions to share yet, but I'm just completely in awe of the sound, the sheer sonority of this library. There's really just nothing else like it.


----------



## CT (May 6, 2021)

Yeah those legato quirks to me actually sound like they're just part of the playing, but if there's something similar going on in the choir then who knows. I usually make a list of little issues after getting something which I then send to the developer. Think everyone's ahead of me this time though so we'll see what gets worked out.


----------



## dedene (May 6, 2021)

@OrchestralTools Thanks for this wonderful library!

For the organ, is it possible to stack some of the articulations like pulling the stops on a real organ? I.e. combining the Nazard with 8’ or 4’ stops. I know of the poly map but it seems either switch or cross fade between the articulations, not overlay them with equal volume?


----------



## Cheezus (May 6, 2021)

dedene said:


> @OrchestralTools Thanks for this wonderful library!
> 
> For the organ, is it possible to stack some of the articulations like pulling the stops on a real organ? I.e. combining the Nazard with 8’ or 4’ stops. I know of the poly map but it seems either switch or cross fade between the articulations, not overlay them with equal volume?


You can do this by routing different ones to the same midi channel so they play in unison.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (May 6, 2021)

dedene said:


> @OrchestralTools Thanks for this wonderful library!
> 
> For the organ, is it possible to stack some of the articulations like pulling the stops on a real organ? I.e. combining the Nazard with 8’ or 4’ stops. I know of the poly map but it seems either switch or cross fade between the articulations, not overlay them with equal volume?


My favorite way to manage things like this is actually using Kontakt with a multiscript called Flexrouter. 

This allows you to convert keyswitches to midi channel, so if you send midi output from a "dummy" kontakt instance into SINE - just seperate each articulation by channel. Then you can keyswitch between each manual, as well as pressing more than one keyswitch at once to it to multiple(stack)

This works wonders when you want to stack articulations for any library, any developer with multitimbral support.


----------



## CT (May 6, 2021)

Yeah I also found it a little frustrating to stack certain registrations. Doing the crossfade thing but it would be nice if you could just select more than one at once without any other tweaking.


----------



## Gingerbread (May 6, 2021)

To OT:

Will the individual patch price be going up after this intro period, or are these the permanent prices for individual patches?


----------



## Banquet (May 6, 2021)

Beautiful sounding library... can't wait to start composing with it. There doesn't seem to be a manual... does anyone know why some articulations i.e Violins Flageolet portato short start on G, then have 6 keys blacked out, then have D available, 4 keys blacked out, then from G onwards have white keys again. I've noticed some patches don't have the keys blacked out but still don't seem to have samples attached to those keys?


----------



## ProfoundSilence (May 6, 2021)

Gingerbread said:


> To OT:
> 
> Will the individual patch price be going up after this intro period, or are these the permanent prices for individual patches?


Typically I think the individual patch prices are the same year round

Dunno because I only own a few indidivual patches lol


----------



## fiction (May 6, 2021)

I might still get this before the end of the intro offer.. will be very useful for an upcoming project and I really like the sound of the library. 

Still curious to hear what people do with it and what the minor third issues in the strings sound like though..is it annoying?


----------



## Robin (May 6, 2021)

Banquet said:


> Beautiful sounding library... can't wait to start composing with it. There doesn't seem to be a manual... does anyone know why some articulations i.e Violins Flageolet portato short start on G, then have 6 keys blacked out, then have D available, 4 keys blacked out, then from G onwards have white keys again. I've noticed some patches don't have the keys blacked out but still don't seem to have samples attached to those keys?


Has to do with which notes are possible to be played as harmonics on the instruments, the g and d are natural octave harmonics over the open G and D strings, from the next G onwards they most likely sampled artificial harmonics on the 4th partial which can be produced chromatically but only start 2 octaves above the lowest string.


----------



## jbuhler (May 6, 2021)

fiction said:


> I might still get this before the end of the intro offer.. will be very useful for an upcoming project and I really like the sound of the library.
> 
> Still curious to hear what people do with it and what the minor third issues in the strings sound like though..is it annoying?


It sounds like a very soft overlay of a staccato short a major third below the target note, the kind of thing you will only hear in an exposed context, and as @ism notes it actually sounds kind of pretty (so long as that's what you want).


----------



## Robin (May 6, 2021)

Regarding this artifact issue I was investigating a bit further and it is NOT only minor thirds. I reported the following already to OT support:

Violin Sustains+LEG




> Especially noticeable in the violins. There always is a wrong additional note ringing into the transition. For example hold Eb4 (C3= middle C), now play all downwards intervals from there:
> 
> Eb4-C4 = additional Ab3 rings into the transition
> Eb4-B3 = additional C#4 rings into the transition
> ...


----------



## ism (May 6, 2021)

fiction said:


> I might still get this before the end of the intro offer.. will be very useful for an upcoming project and I really like the sound of the library.
> 
> Still curious to hear what people do with it and what the minor third issues in the strings sound like though..is it annoying?


It’s not something I noticed while noodling about for a couple of hours, until someone pointed it out. I understand that some people are much more particular about nuances of tuning and such (ie. all those threads that attack SCS as unusably out of tune, which I always find puzzling). But it’s really not something that would bother me at all. 

It’s perhaps even a lovely bit of character.


----------



## jbuhler (May 6, 2021)

ism said:


> It’s not something I noticed while noodling about for a couple of hours, until someone pointed it out. I understand that some people are much more particular about nuances of tuning and such (ie. all those threads that attack SCS as unusably out of tune, which I always find puzzling). But it’s really not something that would bother me at all.
> 
> It’s perhaps even a lovely bit of character.


Yes, it's certainly not anything that hits you over the head, even the worst of them, though some of them are more prominent than others. And mostly they are kind of absorbed into the sound of the church.


----------



## rrichard63 (May 6, 2021)

ism said:


> ... I understand that some people are much more particular about nuances of tuning and such (ie. all those threads that attack SCS as unusably out of tune, which I always find puzzling). But it’s really not something that would bother me at all.
> 
> It’s perhaps even a lovely bit of character.


Even so, I wouldn't want to have this kind detail baked in. Even if I liked it on some projects, I wouldn 't like it on others. I'd need to be able to turn it on and off at will.


----------



## Giovanni dall Camera (May 6, 2021)

Robin said:


> I'm getting weird artifacts in the legato transitions on all downwards minor thirds on the violins on all mics (particularly obvious on the Trees). Most prominent in the octave above middle c but every minor third downwards has it, sounds like another note ringing into the transition. Can anyone confirm?


Yeah, I get the same. The Violin legato are really hit and miss and need serious rework. It would be really unfortunate, if a pretty library like this would be one of those "sounds-great-unless-you-don't-play-the-wrong-notes-libraries" ...


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## jbuhler (May 6, 2021)

Giovanni dall Camera said:


> Yeah, I get the same. The Violin legato are really hit and miss and need serious rework. It would be really unfortunate, if a pretty library like this would be one of those "sounds-great-unless-you-don't-play-the-wrong-notes-libraries" ...


Aside from the artifacts I find the legatos work well for the music I see myself writing with these instruments. These really shouldn’t be thought of as general purpose legatos, and I wouldn’t want the legatos “fixed” to be brought in line with a general concept of legato that runs contrary to what is special about this library.


----------



## ism (May 6, 2021)

Yes, @OrchestralTools please don’t ‘fix’ the legato!


----------



## reids (May 6, 2021)

Where do you check for updates and library patch fixes for OT libraries in the Sine Player? I am fairly new to Sine since I mostly prefer using Kontakt. As OT are working on the fixes and updates for Tallinn, would like to know where library updates are placed so you can download them when they are ready.


----------



## jbuhler (May 6, 2021)

reids said:


> Where do you check for updates and library patch fixes for OT libraries in the Sine Player? I am fairly new to Sine. As OT are working on the fixes and updates for Tallinn, would like to know where library updates are placed so you can download them when they are ready.


Usually there’s a little icon on the library in Sine saying it’s been updated. And they will announce it in the forum and send an email as I recall.


----------



## reids (May 6, 2021)

@Robin , @OrchestralTools Was just on Chris Siu's youtube channel as he was dong a walkthrough of Tallinn. Another user posted that they were hearing very audible room noise throughout the library like a fan is turned on, especially the Omni mics. And the string legatos have a strange secondary note audible in the transitions. Would like other users reports here about this or if there are fixes for these being worked on  . This is an expensive library and hope OT works out these artifacts issues so posting some of the comments of issues here to report. See below:





 Mark ​11 hours ago
I bought this library and I was disappointed. There is a very audible room ambient noise (almost like someone left a fan on) throughout the whole library (particularly in the Omni mics). The noise can really build up when using many mics. Also the strings legatos are almost unusable because most notes have a strange secondary note audible in the transitions :(



Christopher Siu
11 hours ago
Sorry to hear that Mark! I can see what you mean though, hence why I’d only use 1-2 mics at a time myself.



 Mark ​11 hours ago
Yeah, I’m having to try different workarounds as well. EQing some of the lower end noise out can help a bit, but noise is generally throughout the whole frequency spectrum. It just surprises me because recording such noise is something you’d expect from amateurs not the premiere sample company. I think they were out of their depth with that hall. The longs tails of the notes are probably what screwed up their legato recordings as well, which they couldn’t fix in post.


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## holywilly (May 6, 2021)

I'm quite liking how Tallinn and other OT libraries sound, they're not the cleanest libraries, but yet they are great to be layered with other clean libraries for liveness. That's just my opinions.


----------



## CT (May 6, 2021)

I wonder if that guy is talking about noise on the organs only, or if he thinks it's everywhere. You can hear the blower of the organ clearly in those samples, which is not really a "bug" at all....


----------



## MusicalWhiskey (May 6, 2021)

Mike T said:


> I wonder if that guy is talking about noise on the organs only, or if he thinks it's everywhere. You can hear the blower of the organ clearly in those samples, which is not
> 
> 
> Mike T said:
> ...


----------



## CT (May 6, 2021)

Yeah I know about that, I'm talking about the "fan left on" comments. Sounds like normal noise floor in a large space to me, plus the blower noise in the organ samples. That's just what happens in a big place like that.

By the way everyone, be sure to pull the releases in the envelope control all the way to the right to get that full natural decay. Such a great sound.


----------



## jbuhler (May 6, 2021)

Mike T said:


> I wonder if that guy is talking about noise on the organs only, or if he thinks it's everywhere. You can hear the blower of the organ clearly in those samples, which is not really a "bug" at all....


Yeah, I'm not hearing the noise on the choirs or strings either. My listening environment at the moment is not the best, but testing them with headphones, if those noises exist they are below the ambient noise floor of my room with my headphones on. There are definitely secondary noises on legatos, though I don't generally find them intrusive. Yes, surprise, the library sounds like it's been recorded in a church! Unusable? Well, if you want the strings and choir to sound like they were recorded in a studio, you'll be hard pressed to get these samples to do that. Even the spot has a lot of the church in it. Some might not be liking the sound of the church.


----------



## VVEremita (May 6, 2021)

I would be dissapointed if I bought a library specifically recorded in a church and then find out that it doesn't have audible room ambient noise.


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## Giovanni dall Camera (May 7, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Aside from the artifacts I find the legatos work well for the music I see myself writing with these instruments. These really shouldn’t be thought of as general purpose legatos, and I wouldn’t want the legatos “fixed” to be brought in line with a general concept of legato that runs contrary to what is special about this library.


Yes. The legato of about 'every other' transition works good! I am talking about all the bumpy transition, because what can be heard there is not what I generally accept as 'character'. It is simply distracting stuff that will ruin any phrase that might have started nicely.


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## fourier (May 7, 2021)

Giovanni dall Camera said:


> Yes. The legato of about 'every other' transition works good! I am talking about all the bumpy transition, because what can be heard there is not what I generally accept as 'character'. It is simply distracting stuff that will ruin any phrase that might have started nicely.


Can you share a clip to listen to as an example?


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## jbuhler (May 7, 2021)

Giovanni dall Camera said:


> Yes. The legato of about 'every other' transition works good! I am talking about all the bumpy transition, because what can be heard there is not what I generally accept as 'character'. It is simply distracting stuff that will ruin any phrase that might have started nicely.


That's evidently your experience, but not at all mine. For what I'm doing I haven't yet run into a legato transition that doesn't work for me, and yes, I'm quite aware of the note that rings through on the descending legato intervals, and I've encountered some other small imperfections (e.g., audible bow changes) that have similarly not gotten in the way of writing. The only issue I'm having with the legato is that the timings don't always seem match between the string sections, so I'm having to move some of them by hand. I'm also fairly pleased with how the legato transitions work with the other articulations, especially the single bow expressive. 

Crossing dynamic layers takes a bit of practice, but that's generally true of these kinds of libraries. And the library doesn't generally bloom into the higher dynamic layer the way many libraries do. That's actually a positive for me.


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## Begfred (May 7, 2021)

I think the room noise is totally normal for that kind of recording. The only problem is that it should always be present. Maybe we should have access to a room tone audio file or a Sine patch so we could fill the gaps in silent moments.


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## fourier (May 7, 2021)

This might be a very dumb question, but where can I find the library manual? I'm brand new to SINE and OT-products in general, but I cannot seem to find any PDF etc. on my hard drive or the webpages.


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## ProfoundSilence (May 7, 2021)

I'm away from my pc for most of the weekend but if it's a complaint that the organ blows air im going to die of laughter


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## ka00 (May 7, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I'm away from my pc for most of the weekend but if it's a complaint that the organ blows air im going to die of laughter



Can anyone confirm if you can actually smell the air in the pipes?


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## Marko Zirkovich (May 7, 2021)

ka00 said:


> Can anyone confirm if you can actually smell the air in the pipes?


You might need Synesthesia for that.


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## Toecutter (May 7, 2021)

VVEremita said:


> I would be dissapointed if I bought a library specifically recorded in a church and then find out that it doesn't have audible room ambient noise.


This and it's not as bad as the youtube guy suggested. Nothing you can't RX out anyway!


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## Fox (May 7, 2021)

fourier said:


> This might be a very dumb question, but where can I find the library manual? I'm brand new to SINE and OT-products in general, but I cannot seem to find any PDF etc. on my hard drive or the webpages.


In general, many (all??) OT libraries lack manuals. Please, others, correct me if I'm wrong.


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## holywilly (May 7, 2021)

Tallinn - Notes - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


Hotfixes (these updates will be shown in MyLicenses if your version needs them - if no updates are shown, you have the current version). Female Choir: Optimized




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com


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## fourier (May 7, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Tallinn - Notes - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk
> 
> 
> Hotfixes (these updates will be shown in MyLicenses if your version needs them - if no updates are shown, you have the current version). Female Choir: Optimized
> ...


Thank you. I've found the manuals from EastWest, Cinematic Studios and Audiobro to be very useful and detailed when explaining CC, legato speed and general functions. Perhaps I've just become a bit spoiled with documentation in that regard.


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## ProfoundSilence (May 7, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Tallinn - Notes - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk
> 
> 
> Hotfixes (these updates will be shown in MyLicenses if your version needs them - if no updates are shown, you have the current version). Female Choir: Optimized
> ...


Well that's pretty handy


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## Banquet (May 7, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> This and it's not as bad as the youtube guy suggested. Nothing you can't RX out anyway!


There is quite a lot of 'church sound' on the omni and surround mics. It's a bit like having a Chris Watson recording of the church in the background. Personally, I love it. I always thought the C T A mics from Spitfire were all the mics I needed, but I'm fascinated by the mic options in Tallinn and the sounds they bring to the mix. I could close my eyes and be in that church... so atmospheric and lovely.


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## jbuhler (May 7, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> This and it's not as bad as the youtube guy suggested. Nothing you can't RX out anyway!


I wouldn't even call it bad. It reminds me not a little of those who complain about noise in the low dynamic recordings of Ark 2 and Tundra.


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## ism (May 7, 2021)

Or the SsS thread that was dominated by vitriol about how the non-legato patches didn’t have legato.

Still, that this is a wholly new space in string sampling - and definitely not CSS - is wholly to be celebrated.


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## jbuhler (May 7, 2021)

fourier said:


> Thank you. I've found the manuals from EastWest, Cinematic Studios and Audiobro to be very useful and detailed when explaining CC, legato speed and general functions. Perhaps I've just become a bit spoiled with documentation in that regard.


A lot of the information is inside the Sine player itself when you have the library open, things like how many dynamic layers a patch has, number of round robins, what the various CCs do with the library (especially if they are using CC4, the variation slider), etc. Otherwise the functionality for the libraries are the same across the Sine player so some of what you might find in a manual for other libraries, you will find in the manual for Sine, which is found under the support link.


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## Toecutter (May 7, 2021)

ism said:


> Or the SsS thread that was dominated by vitriol about how the non-legato patches didn’t have legato.


Too funny! XD But what is SsS?


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## ism (May 7, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> Too funny! XD But what is SsS?


Spitfire solo strings. True story.


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## ism (May 7, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> This and it's not as bad as the youtube guy suggested. Nothing you can't RX out anyway!


I wouldn’t even not call it bad, I’d call it amazingly gorgeously to die for never before sampled beautiful.


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## Getsumen (May 7, 2021)

Fox said:


> In general, many (all??) OT libraries lack manuals. Please, others, correct me if I'm wrong.


They're all online which may be a little bit stranger than what you're used to.





Collection Notes - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


Contains notes to individual collections




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com





Although I guess these aren't really all "manuals" but most of the libs don't have any extremely special unique features about them, so that parts mostly just included in the capsule or sine manual


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## Kevperry777 (May 7, 2021)

reids said:


> @Robin , @OrchestralTools Was just on Chris Siu's youtube channel as he was dong a walkthrough of Tallinn. Another user posted that they were hearing very audible room noise throughout the library like a fan is turned on, especially the Omni mics. And the string legatos have a strange secondary note audible in the transitions. Would like other users reports here about this or if there are fixes for these being worked on  . This is an expensive library and hope OT works out these artifacts issues so posting some of the comments of issues here to report. See below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I haven't purchased....but definitely heard the noise floor in several of the walkthrough videos. Honestly, it's similar to some other OT libraries I have. They sound fantastic, but noise can get unacceptable. Maybe they don't de-noise as aggressively as some, I don't know. Can be very pronounced if compressed unwisely and a HPF usually is helpful.


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## Giovanni dall Camera (May 7, 2021)

fourier said:


> Can you share a clip to listen to as an example?


Sure. Here you go.

View attachment Tallinn-Transitions.mp3


On a second listen, I think those are maybe mistakenly placed transitions and this could be an easy fix. I hope they recorded something better for these intervals, because otherwise the library sounds great for certain cases.

Unlike others, I don't think mentioning something annoying about a library necessarily means that you really hate it! But - TBH - I believe I will be pretty annoyed if the violin legato patch will stay like that. I don't want my music to be limited by which notes (or legato transitions) a library plays nice. I am sure, many will agree.


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## jbuhler (May 7, 2021)

Criticisms are fine—and yes, it would be nice if OT could correct the legato to eliminate those double note rings—but anyone who's followed new library threads recently on VI-C will see how quickly criticism turns into distortion that does no one favors. There are things—many things!—this library does exceptionally well, indeed like no other that I have. There are things this library is just not designed to do and will never be able to do. It is important to recognize that this library is just not designed to do some things, that there are certain consequences to the fact that it was recorded in a church, that it focuses on lower dynamic layers, and that the strings generally use very little to no vibrato. It is not really a library designed for general use. That might indeed mean that this is not the library for the kind of music you want to write.


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## Giovanni dall Camera (May 7, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Criticisms are fine—and yes, it would be nice if OT could correct the legato to eliminate those double note rings—but anyone who's followed new library threads recently on VI-C will see how quickly criticism turns into distortion that does no one favors. There are things—many things!—this library does exceptionally well, indeed like no other that I have. There are things this library is just not designed to do and will never be able to do. It is important to recognize that this library is just not designed to do some things, that there are certain consequences to the fact that it was recorded in a church, that it focuses on lower dynamic layers, and that the strings generally use very little to no vibrato. It is not really a library designed for general use. That might indeed mean that this is not the library for the kind of music you want to write.


Thank you sincerely for being ok with my considered criticism! Next time I will try to moderate my uttered opinion according to your standards, Sir.


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## jbuhler (May 7, 2021)

Giovanni dall Camera said:


> Thank you sincerely for being ok with my considered criticism! Next time I will try to moderate my uttered opinion according to your standards, Sir.


You do you.


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## Toecutter (May 7, 2021)

Giovanni dall Camera said:


> Thank you sincerely for being ok with my considered criticism! Next time I will try to moderate my uttered opinion according to your standards, Sir.


Come on I thought you guys were having a nice moment here XD Read jbuhler's message again, it wasn't directed at you... just some general observations about the types of criticism we read after a release, some are helpful and can improve the library, others are just frustration-fueled and sound more like venting. It happened some pages ago... again not aimed at you, I agree with your previous message and audio example. Legato transitions need work and it helps that you posted an example


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## ism (May 7, 2021)

Giovanni dall Camera said:


> Thank you sincerely for being ok with my considered criticism! Next time I will try to moderate my uttered opinion according to your standards, Sir.


And thank you for being open to legitimate contextualization of and counterpoint to your legitimate and considered criticism.


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## Giovanni dall Camera (May 7, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> Come on I thought you guys were having a nice moment here XD Read jbuhler's message again, it wasn't directed at you... just some general observations about the types of criticism we read after a release, some are helpful and can improve the library, others are just frustration-fueled and sound more like venting. It happened some pages ago... again not aimed at you, I agree with your previous message and audio example. Legato transitions need work and it helps that you posted an example


Thank you, too, Sir! I am grateful beyond words that my words find acceptance in this illustrious community of well-educated and experienced ladies and gentlemen!


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## fourier (May 7, 2021)

This is fast starting to feel like a Monty Python sketch.


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## Toecutter (May 7, 2021)

Giovanni dall Camera said:


> Thank you, too, Sir! I am grateful beyond words that my words find acceptance in this illustrious community of well-educated and experienced ladies and gentlemen!


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## CT (May 7, 2021)

Don't mind Mr. John Room, it's just that same dude again. You know the one.


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## babylonwaves (May 7, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I'm quite liking how Tallinn and other OT libraries sound, they're not the cleanest libraries, but yet they are great to be layered with other clean libraries for liveness. That's just my opinions.


Not so clean will serve many well, many libs miss that grit - in fact I really like that this lib sounds like a recording with a lot of absence (yes that includes room tone).


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## Fever Phoenix (May 7, 2021)

Dear folks at @OrchestralTools,

as I was voicing concerns about the Sine Player before, I feel like I owe you an update and a big thanks. After deleting all and installing the latest version, I've finally got to dive into the player and I must say it works fast and smooth. And the overall tone of Tallinn is wonderful. It makes my mind travel back to the city of Tallinn. I was there two years ago, while working in Estonia. I remember standing at Tallinn Song Festival Grounds, thinking about the thousands and thousands of people, singing for indipendence.

Either way, congratulations to a very special release!


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## Fever Phoenix (May 7, 2021)

..and yes, I observed those 'wrong' notes in the legato transitions as well. Not the first library to show a 'defect' like that upon release. I would even go as far as saying that it is rather common. I would figure these will be fixed in time.


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## reids (May 7, 2021)

Thank you for everyone's comments, opinions, concerns, and demos. I am considering purchasing so am evaluating the library by watching the walkthroughs, listening to demos, and getting user opinions on it as this is all I can judge it on. Thus, more opinions and feedback is helpful for the developer and current users in improving the library where there are actual issues versus how the library is intended to be. And since OT mentioned to continue providing reports here or emailing them in regards to this library, we should be doing that and continuing reporting where it may be necessary to make this a great final product after the updates. The discussion here is very helpful as well. Since OT are listening to the feedback and reported issues, I am likely to go ahead and purchase it since customer support and providing updates when necessary is important to me as one of the major deciding factors when considering buying a pricier library.


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## Fever Phoenix (May 7, 2021)

reids said:


> Thank you for everyone's comments, opinions, concerns, and demos. I am considering purchasing so am evaluating the library by watching the walkthroughs, listening to demos, and getting user opinions on it as this is all I can judge it on. Thus, more opinions and feedback is helpful for the developer and current users in improving the library where there are actual issues versus how the library is intended to be. And since OT mentioned to continue providing reports here or emailing them in regards to this library, we should be doing that and continuing reporting where it may be necessary to make this a great final product after the updates. The discussion here is very helpful as well. Since OT are listening to the feedback and reported issues, I am likely to go ahead and purchase it since customer support and providing updates when necessary is important to me as one of the major deciding factors when considering buying a pricier library.



We've all been there, I guess.

But the cool thing about OT and Sine is that you can buy single instruments. Are you in a rush? Do you have a project that seeks this kind of asthetic or is it th direction you like to write for?


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## Scalms (May 7, 2021)

I'm trying to decide to, if to buy this library. I'm def going to buy the pipe organ, well because, it's a pipe organ and sounds awesome.

But help me decide about the choirs. I have Ark2, and Chris Siu's walkthrough had them (Ark2 vs Tallinn) side by side (which was very helpful), and the sounds were fairly similar, almost like they hired the same choir. 

So for those that have Tallinn and Ark2, can you achieve similar choir sound by placing Ark2 in with quality church reverb? (I have 7th heaven pro) 

Help me out here!

thanks in advance!


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## ism (May 7, 2021)

Giovanni dall Camera said:


> Sure. Here you go.
> 
> View attachment Tallinn-Transitions.mp3
> 
> ...



Not sure if this is helpful, but for a phrase like this, is it just me or is are the artifacts less noticeable with you use the long portato legato?




(1st figure is your melody played with normal legato. The next two repeat with portato.)


It's rapidly descending m3s where these aretifacts are most felt. And certainly the portato legato is more fluid, maybe more lyrical, for a phrase at this tempo. But while I wouldn't say the artifacts are gone (they use the same legato samples after all), they seem to me less noticeable in the portato.


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## river angler (May 7, 2021)

Scalms said:


> So for those that have Tallinn and Ark2, can you achieve similar choir sound by placing Ark2 in with quality church reverb? (I have 7th heaven pro)
> 
> Help me out here!
> 
> thanks in advance!


You may be able to achieve a similar pliability with the Ark choirs but you won't achieve the same musicality and ambient nuance by simply spinning in a "church like reverb". That reverb in Tallinn is half of the sound: the choir sounds unique because it has been captured in that particular church.
I would only buy the whole package if you really want another flavour of choral patches to work with.

This library was conceived to capture an overall unique choral sound that ports its true flavour only with the sum of all its parts including the ambience. The Ark's and any other choral samples will always sound different to Tallin no matter what reverb you attach to them.

If you are composing with choral patches most of the time blended with a lot of other instruments then perhaps either the Arks or Tallinn would no doubt work for you so maybe then I would pass on acquiring the Tallin choirs. However even then you would "perceive" a different "feel" between the two.

However if you are composing with choral patches very exposed that's where different flavours of an instrument become more in focus... hence I think you're looking at Tallinn in the wrong light really-
Same goes for the strings- if you like the way they both sound in their own right and you can see you'll really make use of them as much as you feel strongly about Tallinns organs then you may want to go for the whole package. If not I would pass.


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## river angler (May 7, 2021)

ism said:


> Not sure if this is helpful, but for a phrase like this, is it just me or is are the artifacts less noticeable with you use the long portato legato?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Golly! that sounds like poor playing to me like the player has bad string separation technique when crossing strings to descend to different intervals. Ironically the sample itself sounds like a very realistic recording of poor violin/viola technique! Bizarre!

OT should definitely rectify this but as some others have commented there is something uncannily musical about hearing what sounds like "lazy musicianship"!!! 

Ultimately though I concur that one shouldn't have to avoid playing certain combinations of notes because the library coughs up artefacts like this.


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## Scalms (May 7, 2021)

river angler said:


> You may be able to achieve a similar pliability with the Ark choirs but you won't achieve the same musicality and ambient nuance by simply spinning in a "church like reverb". That reverb in Tallinn is half of the sound: the choir sounds unique because it has been captured in that particular church.
> I would only buy the whole package if you really want another flavour of choral patches to work with.
> 
> This library was conceived to capture an overall unique choral sound that ports its true flavour only with the sum of all its parts including the ambience. The Ark's and any other choral samples will always sound different to Tallin no matter what reverb you attach to them.
> ...


Great thoughts, thanks, this sort of sound is right up my alley. I do debate back and forth how many pieces i will end up writing with it (as after awhile I think they will all sort of sound the same), but this sort of library is one that I will just play and put a smile on my face, no compositions needed. So I lean towards buying but money is tight right now, so I will debate some more. thanks


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## CT (May 7, 2021)

Scalms said:


> Great thoughts, thanks, this sort of sound is right up my alley. I do debate back and forth how many pieces i will end up writing with it (as after awhile I think they will all sort of sound the same), but this sort of library is one that I will just play and put a smile on my face, no compositions needed. So I lean towards buying but money is tight right now, so I will debate some more. thanks


I often have that concern with this type of library: how much shelf life will it have before I start writing the same things over and over for it? I think there's enough diversity in here to avoid that. The strings are probably the least versatile in the long run, but I see the choir and organ at least having plenty of applications.


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## CT (May 7, 2021)

Working on something right now and thinking it'd be very useful if you could link the sustains in the long syllables with legato transitions. Am I correct that this isn't possible with this articulation? When I say it would be very useful I mean it would be VERY useful.


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## VVEremita (May 8, 2021)

Tallin is an immense inspiration in this particular style of minimalist sacred music. You can do "similar" things with other libraries, but still be far away from touchung exactly what Tallin does. The library delivers in a uniquely beautiful and authentic manner. It just sings.

I went for the most noisy sound with lots of sorround mics 

Edit: I think one can get pretty good phrasing with the syllables by disabling certain RRs that bother in a particular line. In addition to that I will implement workarounds to additionally choose certain syllables with keyswitches. I wholeheartedly agree that a syllable / legato combination would be great. I understand though that it is not easy to deliver.


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## prodigalson (May 8, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Working on something right now and thinking it'd be very useful if you could link the sustains in the long syllables with legato transitions. Am I correct that this isn't possible with this articulation? When I say it would be very useful I mean it would be VERY useful.


I imagine this would be almost impossible because, as far as I understand it, the legato transitions are the same transitions no matter which articulation you link them to and for the syllables with legato to sound convincing you would need dedicated legato samples for each syllable because the attack of each one is very different.


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## d4vec4rter (May 8, 2021)

Well, I almost convinced myself that I didn't need or want this library. I'm glad that I failed because this is quite exquisite. Only had a short play with it so far but I'm a lot more impressed than I thought I'd be. Of course, it has its very own unique sonic characteristics but it also appears to blend exceptionally well with other libraries. Off to play with it some more!


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## ProfoundSilence (May 8, 2021)

d4vec4rter said:


> Well, I almost convinced myself that I didn't need or want this library. I'm glad that I failed because this is quite exquisite. Only had a short play with it so far but I'm a lot more impressed than I thought I'd be. Of course, it has its very own unique sonic characteristics but it also appears to blend exceptionally well with other libraries. Off to play with it some more!


I think this is OT's ability to capture things very "transparently". 

It's the only way I can describe it, I'm not sure if it's just gain staging, careful Mic choice and placement, but they do something that other developers don't that gives every library a very transparent flavor.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (May 8, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I think this is OT's ability to capture things very "transparently".
> 
> It's the only way I can describe it, I'm not sure if it's just gain staging, careful Mic choice and placement, but they do something that other developers don't that gives every library a very transparent flavor.


Agreed. All of OT's products have an air of clarity and transparency very rarely found in other developers' libraries.


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## Toecutter (May 8, 2021)

VVEremita said:


> Tallin is an immense inspiration in this particular style of minimalist sacred music. You can do "similar" things with other libraries, but still be far away from touchung exactly what Tallin does. The library delivers in a uniquely beautiful and authentic manner. It just sings.
> 
> I went for the most noisy sound with lots of sorround mics
> 
> Edit: I think one can get pretty good phrasing with the syllables by disabling certain RRs that bother in a particular line. In addition to that I will implement workarounds to additionally choose certain syllables with keyswitches. I wholeheartedly agree that a syllable / legato combination would be great. I understand though that it is not easy to deliver.


I tried really hard to hear the noise and failed! XD The ambiance simply adds to the realism, it embraces the sound and transports us to the middle of Niguliste. One of the most impressive libraries I heard in a long long time, hope OT keeps the streak going.


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## CT (May 8, 2021)

prodigalson said:


> I imagine this would be almost impossible because, as far as I understand it, the legato transitions are the same transitions no matter which articulation you link them to and for the syllables with legato to sound convincing you would need dedicated legato samples for each syllable because the attack of each one is very different.


I wouldn't want a new syllable on a new note attack though, just the ability to prolong the sustain of one over several notes.


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## ism (May 8, 2021)

Really, an entirely new vol 2 with Genesis styles syllables, polyphony legato, and maybe an additional pp layer, and really just more of the same ... would be the Mother of All No Brainers (vol 2).


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## ism (May 8, 2021)

Here's a silly little noodle which I think demonstrates a couple of key things I'm finding about the musicality of the strings:





It uses mostly the single bows and the portatos each with /w legato turned on. Note that this isn't playable with the default patch, you have to set it up in Sine yourself. Which is odd, as accessing the different arcs really adds enormously to the musicality of phrases you can draw out of this.

In fact I think that keyswitching between single bow + portato (/w legato) is going to be my default way to use this library, it's just got such a lovely expressiveness. I like the default legato, but it's a very different effect.

A second point is the dynamics. We have two layers to work with here, p and mf. Combine that with the relative lack of progressive vibrato, and on the main legato, you find that you just don't get remotely the same kind of crescendo bloom that you get in nearly every other strings library (ie. this is *not* CSS). You can try to force conventional romantic phrasings out of it, and it sometime sort of works (though as if under duress), but this library just isn't made for that romantic mod-wheel swell.

Yet when you're using the arcs as well as the mod wheel in crafting the dynamic dimension of expressiveness, then the choice of these two dynamics layers somehow makes perfect sense. I don't quite know how to describe it. It just works.

The round robins are also very nice to have here also in faster passages.

Third, the sound. Which presumably speaks entirely for itself here. It's just incredible, I've never heard such a raw presence of strings. Lots of close mic here, and I can't ever imagine not wanting to have the close mic cranked.


Then we have the textural patches - here the soft sustains and dyanamic waves towards the end. I have lots of gorgeous textural libraries. But what's particularly remarkable here is just how the textural + the arcs + the legatos - ie the spectrum from broad to very fine brush stokes - all blend so seamlessly.


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## Banquet (May 8, 2021)

ism said:


> Here's a silly little noodle which I think demonstrates a couple of key things I'm finding about the musicality of the strings:



That sounds amazing


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## ScarletJerry (May 8, 2021)

Debating whether to just buy the choir libraries. I have a 8Dio’s Insolidus which sounds very similar. Anyone else with the same dilemma?

Scarlet Jerry


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## d4vec4rter (May 9, 2021)

ScarletJerry said:


> Debating whether to just buy the choir libraries. I have a 8Dio’s Insolidus which sounds very similar. Anyone else with the same dilemma?
> 
> Scarlet Jerry


Debated long and hard on this one. I thought I wasn't really into organs and I've spent a small fortune on string libraries recently (Afflatus, SSS, CSS) so another chamber strings library didn't excite me. I finally caved in to the fact it was a good introductory price and so many were raving about it (Daniel James did a good job on me too with his 2 hour live stream).

I'm so glad I did because I've been so pleasantly surprised at just how good this library is. The choir is beautiful and the organ (you get two) sounds awesome but the thing that impresses me most is how well the three main sections (Choir, Strings and Organ) blend in so well together to give that wonderful ethereal organic sound and how well they blend in with other libraries, particularly the strings. I've blended them with all three of the above libraries and they sound incredible.

I can't do anything but recommend buying the whole package.


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## Banquet (May 9, 2021)

I finally had a couple of hours to try and put a quick sketch together. Everything is Tallinn, no effects, no eq (I'm too much of a newb to risk ruining the gorgeous sound with eq!)

I love this library. My music is always inspired by nature and I prefer intimate and simple tracks but I still wouldn't normally have written something like this.

To the pro's and advanced, please excuse the rough edges and mistakes - I'm a beginner!


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## fourier (May 9, 2021)

Banquet said:


> I finally had a couple of hours to try and put a quick sketch together. Everything is Tallinn, no effects, no eq (I'm too much of a newb to risk ruining the gorgeous sound with eq!)
> 
> I love this library. My music is always inspired by nature and I prefer intimate and simple tracks but I still wouldn't normally have written something like this.
> 
> To the pro's and advanced, please excuse the rough edges and mistakes - I'm a beginner!



This is beautiful. For a two hour sketch I think the "rough edges" are quite well masked by the ambience and overall sound of the library. 

Can't wait to dive properly into this library, it's genuinely inspirational.


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## Scalms (May 9, 2021)

d4vec4rter said:


> Debated long and hard on this one. I thought I wasn't really into organs and I've spent a small fortune on string libraries recently (Afflatus, SSS, CSS) so another chamber strings library didn't excite me. I finally caved in to the fact it was a good introductory price and so many were raving about it (Daniel James did a good job on me too with his 2 hour live stream).
> 
> I'm so glad I did because I've been so pleasantly surprised at just how good this library is. The choir is beautiful and the organ (you get two) sounds awesome but the thing that impresses me most is how well the three main sections (Choir, Strings and Organ) blend in so well together to give that wonderful ethereal organic sound and how well they blend in with other libraries, particularly the strings. I've blended them with all three of the above libraries and they sound incredible.
> 
> I can't do anything but recommend buying the whole package.


this is what I was afraid of, lol! my assumptions are correct here, guess I will have to buy the whole thing!


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## Toecutter (May 9, 2021)

Banquet said:


> I'm too much of a newb to risk ruining the gorgeous sound with eq


That's how you know a library is special, your track sounds heavenly, like really good (I wouldn't say so otherwise) and Tallinn made it possible for you to focus on your beautiful musical ideas instead of the buzz-kill tech stuff. The only thing that I would give a bit more polish is the shorts starting at 1:06 (timing and releases) but that's just a really nitpicky nitpick comment and does not take any awesome points from your track


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## jneebz (May 9, 2021)

VVEremita said:


> Tallin is an immense inspiration in this particular style of minimalist sacred music. You can do "similar" things with other libraries, but still be far away from touchung exactly what Tallin does. The library delivers in a uniquely beautiful and authentic manner. It just sings.
> 
> I went for the most noisy sound with lots of sorround mics
> 
> Edit: I think one can get pretty good phrasing with the syllables by disabling certain RRs that bother in a particular line. In addition to that I will implement workarounds to additionally choose certain syllables with keyswitches. I wholeheartedly agree that a syllable / legato combination would be great. I understand though that it is not easy to deliver.


Hey this is great, nice work. I think this is a really good example of how to use this library effectively.


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## jneebz (May 9, 2021)

Robin said:


> Regarding this artifact issue I was investigating a bit further and it is NOT only minor thirds. I reported the following already to OT support:
> 
> Violin Sustains+LEG


Hey, just briefly sidetracking the thread to say it's nice to see you VI-C again...always found your music to be stellar quality. Hope you stick around and share some of your current work!


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## Robin (May 9, 2021)

jneebz said:


> Hey, just briefly sidetracking the thread to say it's nice to see you VI-C again...always found your music to be stellar quality. Hope you stick around and share some of your current work!


Thanks alot for the kind words!


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## Banquet (May 9, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> That's how you know a library is special, your track sounds heavenly, like really good (I wouldn't say so otherwise) and Tallinn made it possible for you to focus on your beautiful musical ideas instead of the buzz-kill tech stuff. The only thing that I would give a bit more polish is the shorts starting at 1:06 (timing and releases) but that's just a really nitpicky nitpick comment and does not take any awesome points from your track


Hey, thanks very much for the kind words and advice. I'll PM you about the shorts if that's ok, so as not to turn this thread into a tutorial!


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## ScarletJerry (May 9, 2021)

d4vec4rter said:


> Debated long and hard on this one. I thought I wasn't really into organs and I've spent a small fortune on string libraries recently (Afflatus, SSS, CSS) so another chamber strings library didn't excite me. I finally caved in to the fact it was a good introductory price and so many were raving about it (Daniel James did a good job on me too with his 2 hour live stream).
> 
> I'm so glad I did because I've been so pleasantly surprised at just how good this library is. The choir is beautiful and the organ (you get two) sounds awesome but the thing that impresses me most is how well the three main sections (Choir, Strings and Organ) blend in so well together to give that wonderful ethereal organic sound and how well they blend in with other libraries, particularly the strings. I've blended them with all three of the above libraries and they sound incredible.
> 
> I can't do anything but recommend buying the whole package.


Oh no! That's not the answer that I was looking for haha! I just wanted to know about the choirs, not spend more money on the whole library. 

I already have Liberis, Insolidus, Requiem Light, 8Dio Studio Sopranos, Mercury, and Olympus Elements. I'm wondering if Tallinn would would give me something that I don't already have. I was only looking at the women's voices, maybe the men as well, but now I will look at the rest of the library.

Scarlet Jerry


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## Marsen (May 9, 2021)

ScarletJerry said:


> I already have Liberis, Insolidus, Requiem Light, 8Dio Studio Sopranos, Mercury, and Olympus Elements. I'm wondering if Tallinn would would give me something that I don't already have.


That's what I asked myself, playing with Insolidus und Requiem Light ( in comparison to Tallinn).
Requiem is not 10% near Tallinn Choir. Insolidus is great, but it can't get there. But vice versa is also true.
The dynamics and room , (although just 2 dynamics) are outstanding and unique. 
Not reproducable with reverb.


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## river angler (May 9, 2021)

ScarletJerry said:


> Oh no! That's not the answer that I was looking for haha! I just wanted to know about the choirs, not spend more money on the whole library.
> 
> I already have Liberis, Insolidus, Requiem Light, 8Dio Studio Sopranos, Mercury, and Olympus Elements. I'm wondering if Tallinn would would give me something that I don't already have. I was only looking at the women's voices, maybe the men as well, but now I will look at the rest of the library.
> 
> Scarlet Jerry


As I commented on another poster wondering if it would be possible to mimic Tallinn with one of OT's Ark choirs: you could technically shape the sonic envelope of one of the samples from any of these libraries to get in the "ball park" of Tallinns straight articulations but that's as far as you'll get!

Tallinn's sound, even with the straight sustain articulations, stems from the unique marriage of the Tallinn singers singing style captured in that Niguliste church: without either element it wouldn't be Tallinn!

So yes! Tallinn would definitely bring you a different choral flavour but only if you are aware of why you would seek it's very particular choral timbre to fulfil a certain roll within any given composition.

Also you're getting arguably one of the most beautifully captured church/cathedral organ libraries ever plus an extremely useful strings library to boot!

To my ears Tallinn offers a very unique yet highly usable set of instruments. I believe, once this library has been updated to iron out a few technicalities that have already been pointed out by early adopters, this library will become a classic but also a library that can in fact be used to great aplomb without necessarily being instantly recognisable: something which for those composers looking to maintain their own unique sonic footprint is a rare tool to have to hand!


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## musicalweather (May 9, 2021)

Cheezus said:


> I think it should be relatively easy to set up the SINE player to select syllables using keyswitches:
> 
> 1. Load the syllables articulation multiple times on the same channel in SINE player, once for each syllable you want.
> 2. Deactivate all but one syllable so there is a different syllable remaining in each one.
> 3. Use keyswitches to switch between them at will.


This sounds good. But how do I deactivate the syllables?
Edit: Ah, never mind. Got it figured out.


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## tim727 (May 10, 2021)

TLDR: Can Tallinn be effective combined with Ark 2 to create the type of dark/industrial orchestral music that Ark 2 is meant for?

I know a user recently asked here about making Ark 2 sound like Tallinn. I'm kind of wondering the converse question. Tallinn sounds beautiful but I'm more interested in composing the type of "dark/industrial orchestral" music typical of the Arks (and especially Ark 2) than the types of tracks in the official list of Tallinn demos. Do you guys feel that Tallinn can be used effectively with libs like Ark 2 for that dark, brooding orchestral type of music? My sense is probably yes but my only concern is that perhaps aspects of the way Tallinn was recorded (the room, etc) may make it not blend well with other libs like Ark 2. Thanks for any input.


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## VVEremita (May 10, 2021)

tim727 said:


> TLDR: Can Tallinn be effective combined with Ark 2 to create the type of dark/industrial orchestral music that Ark 2 is meant for?
> 
> I know a user recently asked here about making Ark 2 sound like Tallinn. I'm kind of wondering the converse question. Tallinn sounds beautiful but I'm more interested in composing the type of "dark/industrial orchestral" music typical of the Arks (and especially Ark 2) than the types of tracks in the official list of Tallinn demos. Do you guys feel that Tallinn can be used effectively with libs like Ark 2 for that dark, brooding orchestral type of music? My sense is probably yes but my only concern is that perhaps aspects of the way Tallinn was recorded (the room, etc) may make it not blend well with other libs like Ark 2. Thanks for any input.



I have both Ark2 and Tallinn. I have not yet tried to blend them yet. My guess is that it can be done soundwise and that the aspects you mention (room etc) don't stand against it. Even though Tallinn was recorded in a church it still has that OT sound, as others have pointed out.

But the sound in terms of musical performances rather than room/mic positions etc is a very different story. The strings and the choir sound very gentle in the way they articulate. There are different articulations, but as far as I have explored them, they all share the same inner alignement towards tranquil and humble emotions. Other words could be: "Nordic", peaceful, contemplative, sacred, solace. This aspect is contained in the samples and very present in every note you play. That doesn't mean that it can't sound moving or even dark, but that it is more in the way sacred music does. After all it is close to the sound of Arvo Pärt, whose music stands in a strong religious context. It is emotionally captivating, yet delicate and tranquil.

I don't fully know how orchestral music can be industrial. The players and singers probably don't deliver the dark grit and texture you might be after. That is my opinion. Maybe there is no actual need to value the musical background of the library so highly and there are ways to overcome the underlying intention and performances. But if you succeed you run in danger of defeating the whole purpose of the library and what makes it great.


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## IvanP (May 10, 2021)

Hi @OrchestralTools Sorry if this has been addressed before (can't find it). 

I was about to buy Tallin at the 249 pre order offer but after setting up an account at the website it says that the intro offer is 299 €. 

AFAIK, the intro price is until May 19th, isn't it? 

Can you let me know how to buy it at the VI-Control Pre order one? (both captures from today). 

Thank you!


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## Kony (May 10, 2021)

IvanP said:


> Hi @OrchestralTools Sorry if this has been addressed before (can't find it).
> 
> I was about to buy Tallin at the 249 pre order offer but after setting up an account at the website it says that the intro offer is 299 €.
> 
> ...



Hi @IvanP - the info is in the very first post in this thread:



OrchestralTools said:


> *Pre-order offer*
> Only €249 (+VAT)
> _Pre-order ends May 4_


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## IvanP (May 10, 2021)

Kony said:


> Hi @IvanP - the info is in the very first post in this thread:


Oops, bad timing then. 

In any case, it's still announced as of today in VI with the Pre-order price but no indication of the pre-order ending date whatsoever unless you read the 1st page on the related post, as you kindly mentioned. 

@OrchestralTools : any chance of a coupon for this a bit late customer?  

Thanks!


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## ProfoundSilence (May 10, 2021)

IvanP said:


> Oops, bad timing then.
> 
> In any case, it's still announced as of today in VI with the Pre-order price but no indication of the pre-order ending date whatsoever unless you read the 1st page on the related post, as you kindly mentioned.
> 
> ...


There's no mentioned pre order ended because the pre order ended. It was all over the website and the emails(and even the thread title)

Why would they keep the pre order date almost a week after it's over? And it's obvious that the library has been released, so pre-order obviously wouldn't be around


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## IvanP (May 10, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> There's no mentioned pre order ended because the pre order ended. It was all over the website and the emails(and even the thread title)
> 
> Why would they keep the pre order date almost a week after it's over? And it's obvious that the library has been released, so pre-order obviously wouldn't be around


No problemo, too fast surfing and reading the forums these days


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## Baronvonheadless (May 10, 2021)

Trying to use the choirs in a less churchy, more fantasy ensemble type way...I think they're perfect for that. Used them in the intro to this new piece and really loving the result!


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## David Kudell (May 10, 2021)

Turns out there’s a good reason why Estonian choirs are so good!


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## Scamper (May 11, 2021)

I caved and got Tallinn.
At first I thought the lovely choir would be a nice addition to my arsenal and the strings to go with it, but damn, that organ really slams. It's fun to play and all the patches sound pretty stellar.

Took a deep dive in the library and made a track with it. Except for some low cut EQ and a narrow cut for an annoying frequency in the women choir, it's without any effects. Pure Tallinn.



Some thoughts after playing with it...
- the sound of it all is great
- the dynamics are generally pretty low and the dynamic range is especially narrow for some patches, but luckily the Niente-feature helps to fade instruments out without fiddling with CC11 too much
- there can be a lot of noise buildup

Choir:
- despite lack ot SATB, 4- and 8-part harmony worked well
- long syllables aren't pronounced that strongly and between some, I didn't notice much of a difference
- short syllables are pronounced a bit stronger, so I thought they worked a bit better for pseudo words
- different "sample starts" between syllables until they hit the vowel can make timing harder
- a keyswitch to reset to a certain syllable would be really helpful as well as the possibility to reorder the syllables

Strings:
- love all the soft textures, the portato and the single bow arcs
- volume is a bit inconsistent between different ranges
- the evolving nature of the playing can make it hard to play passages evenly (also with legato)

Organ:
- sounds great on its own and goes well with the choir as a natural subbass

SINE:
- putting 8-10 tracks in one instance seemed to cause some crackles, that even made their way into the exported file. there weren't any CPU/ASIO dropouts and after splitting the SINE instance, it worked. so this might be a SINE issue?


In the end, it's quite lovely as a more specialized great sounding library.


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## CT (May 11, 2021)

Scamper said:


> but luckily the Niente-feature helps to fade instruments out without fiddling with CC11 too much


Usually a useful trick I agree, but here it requires extreme caution since you are also dialing down a significant room presence along with the sound of the players, which can end up being a little odd. Still trying to fine tune a method for getting more naturally faded releases without obviously ducking the actual reverb of the church.


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## jneebz (May 11, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> Trying to use the choirs in a less churchy, more fantasy ensemble type way...I think they're perfect for that. Used them in the intro to this new piece and really loving the result!



Nice work! Is there a reason why you have so much left channel content in your mix? I'd love to hear your music with more balance across the stereo spectrum!


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## jneebz (May 11, 2021)

Scamper said:


> I caved and got Tallinn.
> At first I thought the lovely choir would be a nice addition to my arsenal and the strings to go with it, but damn, that organ really slams. It's fun to play and all the patches sound pretty stellar.
> 
> Took a deep dive in the library and made a track with it. Except for some low cut EQ and a narrow cut for an annoying frequency in the women choir, it's without any effects. Pure Tallinn.
> ...



This should be an official demo. Wow.


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## ProfoundSilence (May 11, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Usually a useful trick I agree, but here it requires extreme caution since you are also dialing down a significant room presence along with the sound of the players, which can end up being a little odd. Still trying to fine tune a method for getting more naturally faded releases without obviously ducking the actual reverb of the church.


put CC11 on CC1 - make the curve 100% for the entire thing except the end, find where you want the mod wheel to tail it off - maybe don't go *all* the way down. 

Or using the soft low layer could maybe solve your issue(it's not niente)


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## Baronvonheadless (May 11, 2021)

jneebz said:


> Nice work! Is there a reason why you have so much left channel content in your mix? I'd love to hear your music with more balance across the stereo spectrum!


You know what, I didn’t even listen to this in headphones. Just on my studio monitors and I didn’t notice there. I bet it’s because I was experimenting with reverb sends. Since I just got nimbus/R4 and seventh heaven I’ve been experimenting running things thru a reverb send and just using the one reverb on everything, vs on each individual track. I sent the reverb send to the left and then had the instruments either in stereo or some to the right and tried to balance. I bet my reverb sends are too loud. On my monitors I didn’t notice anything they sounded even. I bet in headphones it exposes it!

EDIT: omg yeah it’s way to the left hahaha! Wow thanks for being the first to bring this to my attention. It’s so bad hahahahaha


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## Scamper (May 11, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Usually a useful trick I agree, but here it requires extreme caution since you are also dialing down a significant room presence along with the sound of the players, which can end up being a little odd. Still trying to fine tune a method for getting more naturally faded releases without obviously ducking the actual reverb of the church.


Right, it will be especially bad with steep CC1 ramps, but I would think with slow CC-movements, it's good enough, even if not perfect.
As you mention it, CC11 is probably the worst way to do it, because not only is it more work, but it will also fade out the release tails, while the Niente-feature will preserve already triggered releases.



ProfoundSilence said:


> Or using the soft low layer could maybe solve your issue(it's not niente)


The Soft Low Layer should work well and it's already activated with many patches in Tallinn, but it doesn't seem to be working for me. When the lowest dynamic is reached, it should lower volume when CC1 is decreased, but here, volume doesn't change much at all. It just adds this lower zone of CC1, which is less reactive. In that way, I prefer Soft Low Layer off to have more control.

Looking at the SINE player again, the volume range slider might be a good option as well. You only have to adjust it for every single articulation separately and I don't see an assigned CC, that controls it.


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## IvanP (May 13, 2021)

Finally bought it. The library is stellar. Amazing work at capturing and programming the sounds.


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## pfmusic (May 13, 2021)

Really enjoying working with this library. Beautiful sound! Really happy with my first OT purchase and the Sine Player has been very stable on my system. 

Great work @OrchestralTools


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## AlainTH (May 14, 2021)

i think i go to buy it. Hope OT will correct the legato strange artefacts reported here and propose natively the possibility to choose what syllabe to trigger.


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## stanthemanNL (May 14, 2021)

What are your experiences with blending the Tallinn choir and Spitfire Chamber Strings? I was thinking about buying SCS and just the Tallinn male & female choir. Can you blend them easily or is it recommended to buy the whole Tallinn library because of the room? I’m not very interested in the organ. Thanks for your help


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## fiction (May 14, 2021)

stanthemanNL said:


> What are your experiences with blending the Tallinn choir and Spitfire Chamber Strings? I was thinking about buying SCS and just the Tallinn male & female choir. Can you blend them easily or is it recommended to buy the whole Tallinn library because of the room? I’m not very interested in the organ. Thanks for your help


I was meaning to ask the exact same thing. I'm really interested in some articulations of the strings in Tallinn and if they could complement SCS. 

Did anyone try yet? 

I'm also patiently waiting for some news regarding the legato transitions before the end of the intro offer.


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## holywilly (May 14, 2021)

I haven’t tried using Tallinn with Spitfire libraries yet, I blend Tallinn with mostly VSL. The choirs and strings blend surprisingly well with most of the libraries out there, the church ambiance provides naturalness of the instruments. The legato transitions for strings are exquisite and very well performed, I can do strings ostinato with it. Now Tallinn is permanently sitting in my template, I love this library.


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## jbuhler (May 14, 2021)

The non/low vibrato character of the Tallinn strings makes them a bit harder to layer than is the case of the choir, which I find blends well with most other libraries. 

For testing the strings I’ve done most of my experiments so far with Berlin Strings Special Bows sul tasto legato. The cellos generally sit nicely together. The violins sometimes fight, especially when using the main legato. The main legato works surprisingly well for accompaniment patterns. As some have noted it often works as well as libraries with round robin legato intervals designed for these kinds of repeated intervals. 

In general the single bows expressive with the legato engaged has layered better than the main legato for connected melodic ideas. The single bows expressive with legato is my preferred articulation when writing melodically for the library alone as well. When doing so you have to think about bowing and allow legato breaks where bow changes would occur.


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## holywilly (May 14, 2021)

And the portato long with legato enabled also fits very well for faster pattern writing!


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## jbuhler (May 14, 2021)

holywilly said:


> And the portato long with legato enabled also fits very well for faster pattern writing!


The legato is still relatively deliberate so you are up against that constraint for speed but it’s nimbler than you might expect!


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## Hadrondrift (May 14, 2021)

Great sounding library, I am quite satisfied.

However, in the "Syllables short" articulation of the female choirs there is inconsistent attack timing on individual RR syllables, especially noticeable at a slow tempo. Each syllable therefore requires different offsets to sound in time. »That's no problem«, you might think, »then I'll adjust individual notes by hand in the MIDI editor«. Wrong, because you don't have control over which syllable sounds when. A sequence that is perfectly timed may be out of time the next time it is played if it starts with a different syllable.

So far, this makes it very hard for me to create a precisely timed staccato phrase. Direct control over the syllables would be really great here, at least a programmable way to reset them to a defined initial state.


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## ProfoundSilence (May 14, 2021)

Hadrondrift said:


> Great sounding library, I am quite satisfied.
> 
> However, in the "Syllables short" articulation of the choirs there is inconsistent attack timing on individual RR syllables, especially noticeable at a slow tempo. Each syllable therefore requires different offsets to sound in time. »That's no problem«, you might think, »then I'll adjust individual notes by hand in the MIDI editor«. Wrong, because you don't have control over which syllable sounds when. A sequence that is perfectly timed may be out of time the next time it is played if it starts with a different syllable.
> 
> So far, this makes it very hard for me to create a precisely timed staccato phrase. Direct control over the syllables would be really great here, at least a programmable way to reset them to a defined initial state.



As long as you aren't using random RR you will have the same syllables playing at the same time. 

You might have to wait the full amount of time for the RR to reset while tweaking if you don't opt for one of the other options mentioned(seperating each RR)


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## Hadrondrift (May 14, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> As long as you aren't using random RR you will have the same syllables playing at the same time.


I am not using random RR. The problem arises especially while editing phrases, when you don't start a sequence at the same place and/or you don't wait each time until the "Reset after" parameter has triggered.


ProfoundSilence said:


> You might have to wait the full amount of time for the RR to reset while tweaking if you don't opt for one of the other options mentioned(seperating each RR)


Separating each RR to individual tracks would help indeed, I guess. Sorry if this has already been discussed, could have missed it.


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## Evans (May 14, 2021)




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## catibi79 (May 14, 2021)

So! I bought. It's a wonderful library. I compose o piece using just Tallinn. Al comments are welcome. Thanks.


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## Robo Rivard (May 14, 2021)

Downloading... Don't want to miss on the Arvo Pärt sound. I really dig the choir, but I think the organs will be my go to.


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## ProfoundSilence (May 14, 2021)

Robo Rivard said:


> Downloading... Don't want to miss on the Arvo Pärt sound. I really dig the choir, but I think the organs will be my go to.


this is the setting I use for the tutti 1 (main organ)

you'll thank me later


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## jbuhler (May 14, 2021)

I've had the library since release date, and I haven't even played through the organs yet. I've taken the choir for a couple of spins, but I'm completely obsessed with the strings, and using them along with Berlin Strings Special Bows and Tundra strings. I'm not even completely sure why I'm finding these strings so fun and inspiring to work with.


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## ProfoundSilence (May 14, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I've had the library since release date, and I haven't even played through the organs yet. I've taken the choir for a couple of spins, but I'm completely obsessed with the strings, and using them along with Berlin Strings Special Bows and Tundra strings. I'm not even completely sure why I'm finding these strings so fun and inspiring to work with.


I'd wager that ark 2 and chamber evos would work well as well.


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## jbuhler (May 14, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I'd wager that ark 2 and chamber evos would work well as well.


Ark 2 could indeed substitute for Special Bows or Tundra, and they are indeed in the template I built to play around with the strings and choir, as is OACE. I've tried Ark 2 a bit, and it doesn't sit with Tallinn quite as well as either Special Bows or Tundra—at least for the kinds of things I've been doing, which has been focused on augmenting the Tallinn strings rather than using Tallinn as part of a general ensemble. The Tallinn strings have certain fragilities and peculiarities that I'm finding most inspiring. And like Tundra and Special Bows, the library is engineered for low dynamics. I find the Tallinn strings seem to also be engineered for rendering accompaniment figures more than carrying the main thematic material, and that adds a nice tension as well. But it also means that the strings invite supplementation by other libraries.


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## ScarletJerry (May 15, 2021)

So I think that I am going to spring for the two choirs and the organ as individual instruments. I don't need the other organ, and I already have several string libraries. The extra cost would be $74 EU for the strings and the other organ. I'm not sure if I would use them.

Scarlet Jerry


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## donnyluvd2bowl (May 15, 2021)

hey ya'll-- sorry for the potentially obvious question, i'm fairly new to the OT stuff

anyone know where I can find the user manuals? just want to read through and see if there's anything worth noting. tried the website obviously, but unless I'm a dummy (always likely) I don't see it anywhere.


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## CT (May 15, 2021)

I believe these pages function as OT's manuals. Could be wrong and maybe there are more detailed PDF versions somewhere.






Tallinn - Notes - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


Hotfixes (these updates will be shown in MyLicenses if your version needs them - if no updates are shown, you have the current version). Female Choir: Optimized




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com


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## AlainTH (May 16, 2021)

a manual is normally for guide the user, the beginning words 'beautifully sampled' doesnt' inspire confidence... Nothing about strings (the ranges would be useful) but a list of organ patches and very useful list of syllables you have to work with. Not all the material is at the level of their promotional videos but apart the legato artefacts (which will maybe be corrected) I find the sounding really inspiring, and it is the best i can ask for a library.


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## Dr.Quest (May 17, 2021)

EwigWanderer said:


> Can’t afford it now but I hope you could just buy women’s choir alone and complete the collection later. It sounds fantastic!!


I'm curious if the choir can do soft. Almost all choirs and even solo vocal libraries cannot do soft. I love the sound of what I've heard and would buy just the women's Choir for a project. That Arvo Part soft vibe.


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## jbuhler (May 17, 2021)

Dr.Quest said:


> I'm curious if the choir can do soft. Almost all choirs and even solo vocal libraries cannot do soft. I love the sound of what I've heard and would buy just the women's Choir for a project. That Arvo Part soft vibe.


I would say the choir, like the strings, is mostly geared to the soft side. The organ somewhat less so, though, even there, the majority of the stops are set up for soft playing.

The choir has two dynamic layers on most articulations, labeled by OT as p and mf.


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## donnyluvd2bowl (May 17, 2021)

Mike T said:


> I believe these pages function as OT's manuals. Could be wrong and maybe there are more detailed PDF versions somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


haha yeesh... guess no manuals then...

oh well!


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## jbuhler (May 17, 2021)

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> haha yeesh... guess no manuals then...
> 
> oh well!


To be honest, mostly you don't need a manual for specific Sine libraries; you need to read the manual for the Sine Player. There's very little that is distinctive to any of the Sine libraries: Range of instruments, number of dynamic layers, which mics are available, round robins, what CC4 (variation) controls, etc. That information is easily accessed in the Sine player itself. Which doesn't help folks who are wanting to look at the manual to find out that information to be sure... But in terms of learning the functionality of any library—mostly you'll learn that through mastering the Sine player (and that learning will for the most part carry across all Sine libraries).


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## Getsumen (May 17, 2021)

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> haha yeesh... guess no manuals then...
> 
> oh well!


Yeah I'm a bit curious what you want a manual for. They're all on the SINE player so they function exactly the same. You can read some of the SINE documents or just watch the youtube walkthrough





__





SINEplayer Quick Start - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


After adding instruments (either from MyLicenses, or from existing downloads you did earlier – see the Installation Guide for details), your instruments with al




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com


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## donnyluvd2bowl (May 17, 2021)

cool thank, will read it. 

just to see if there's anything like, for example, legato transition/portamento time via velocity a la CSS. obviously not that specifically but was just curious. i like to read first, i'm a nerd what can I say.


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## wsimpson (May 17, 2021)

Scamper said:


> I caved and got Tallinn.
> At first I thought the lovely choir would be a nice addition to my arsenal and the strings to go with it, but damn, that organ really slams. It's fun to play and all the patches sound pretty stellar.
> 
> Took a deep dive in the library and made a track with it. Except for some low cut EQ and a narrow cut for an annoying frequency in the women choir, it's without any effects. Pure Tallinn.
> ...



Buying it hoping I can sound half as good as you. I agree with the other comment - this should be an official demo.


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## CT (May 17, 2021)

One thing I'm curious about, if someone from OT is reading. Was there true re-bowing sampled here, or do the very long tails just make it feel like the legato patches can do repeated notes convincingly?


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## frangolupo23 (May 18, 2021)

Hey everybody! For those who are still wondering whether to pick up Tallinn, I've written a little demo using all parts of the library. To me, this collection of virtual instruments is simply wondrous!


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## Scamper (May 18, 2021)

wsimpson said:


> Buying it hoping I can sound half as good as you. I agree with the other comment - this should be an official demo.


I'm sure the library does a bunch of the heavy lifting. It just sounds great.

By the way, if anybody is interested, here are the mic mixes, that I used for my track and found to like with all sections playing together.

Choir // Strings // Organ











I preferred to take away the Spots to avoid too much direct, dry signal. The Close AB worked well to keep the choir more upfront and I think it would work on its own quite well, too. The AB/Tree cards fill out the room nicely with a reasonable amount of the hall and I even thought to switch the Tree cards for the Tree omnis, to push the strings even further back. For the organ, the Spot LLRR are great and add more warmth to the full sound of the hall AB mics.



frangolupo23 said:


> For those who are still wondering whether to pick up Tallinn, I've written a little demo using all parts of the library. To me, this collection of virtual instruments is simply wondrous!


Sounds great and I enjoy the mood it brings to the visuals.


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## fiction (May 18, 2021)

frangolupo23 said:


> Hey everybody! For those who are still wondering whether to pick up Tallinn, I've written a little demo using all parts of the library. To me, this collection of virtual instruments is simply wondrous!



Wow, great composition and beautifully mixed, thank you for sharing! 

On a curiosity note, I hear some high noise floor/hiss that gets stronger on the fuller parts. Is this the effect that mixing/mastering has on this particularly library due to its inherent noise floor?


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## CT (May 18, 2021)

Scamper said:


> For the organ, the Spot LLRR are great and add more warmth to the full sound of the hall AB mics.


Agreed, the LLRR (interesting setup...) feels like the best choice to me for adding detail to the AB and/or Surround on the organ. Great sound.


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## frangolupo23 (May 18, 2021)

fiction said:


> Wow, great composition and beautifully mixed, thank you for sharing!
> 
> On a curiosity note, I hear some high noise floor/hiss that gets stronger on the fuller parts. Is this the effect that mixing/mastering has on this particularly library due to its inherent noise floor?


Thank you, fiction! The library does have an audible noise floor, but I honestly think that that is not a fault, but a strength of the library. There is something very authentic about that. Of course, that is a question of taste. A lot of my favorite real classical recordings have a considerable noise floor too. That might be why I really like it.


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## Scamper (May 18, 2021)

Talking about the noise floor, here's a short example of the noise buildup. I don't think it's that much of an issue though in a composition with other elements, when it doesn't fade out to nothing. 
Otherwise, it might help to underlay a room tone or to add a tad of reverb, when there's more space between notes?


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## frangolupo23 (May 18, 2021)

Scamper said:


> Talking about the noise floor, here's a short example of the noise buildup. I don't think it's that much of an issue though in a composition with other elements, when it doesn't fade out to nothing.
> Otherwise, it might help to underlay a room tone or to add a tad of reverb, when there's more space between notes?


There are quite a few composers who put noise floor underneath their tracks because it adds a natural feel that can't be established otherwise. Some use recordings of John Cage's 4'33''.


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## Jotto (May 18, 2021)

Sounds really good. I was was just going to pull the trigger, but changed my mind when I saw the added tax. the intro price is not 299...Its 374. Big difference. im out.


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## frangolupo23 (May 18, 2021)

Jotto said:


> Sounds really good. I was was just going to pull the trigger, but changed my mind when I saw the added tax. the intro price not 299...Its 374. Big difference. im out.


I see what you're saying. I'm always frustrated when that happens.


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## fiction (May 18, 2021)

frangolupo23 said:


> Thank you, fiction! The library does have an audible noise floor, but I honestly think that that is not a fault, but a strength of the library. There is something very authentic about that. Of course, that is a question of taste. A lot of my favorite real classical recordings have a considerable noise floor too. That might be why I really like it.


Yeah, I totally get you! I'm also very fond of a bit of noise or imperfection on virtual stuff, brings some more life into it. However, I sometimes regret to have it when it's time to add compression and a limiter when it's needed. 

I think I'll buy it anyway, I'm very interested in the sound and aesthetic, it will be useful for future projects for sure. I hope I don't get too annoyed by the noise floor!


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## Baronvonheadless (May 19, 2021)

So I grabbed Tallin last night, I already had acquired the choirs ahead of time, thinking that's all I needed.

Because of OT's a la carte option I realized I have SO many patches from a bunch of their libraries, but I didn't own a full library by them. I thought for awhile and decided this would add something different that I don't have to my arsenal and wow...what a good call.

The strings are really just a joy to play, even though I have so many string libraries....I really thought they'd be my least favorite aspect and currently they're almost number one. The organ is so surprisingly fantastic. It sounded great in the demos for sure, but I think the demos don't really capture the MANY sounds and styles these organs can produce...so many soft textures.

The Choirs while amazing, really are almost taking a back seat at the moment. Completely unpredictable. Would never have guessed. Anyway, amazing library! Very glad I purchased it.

I really wish the female short syllables weren't so out of place timing wise, I know there are ways to get around it sort of...but getting rid of some syllables or is a bit tedious and I also rather enjoy some over others...Maybe I still need to have a learning curve with it.


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## galactic orange (May 19, 2021)

I see an update to Tallinn Female Choir in the SINE player. Not sure what changes were made. Did I miss this update from before?


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## Baronvonheadless (May 19, 2021)

galactic orange said:


> I see an update to Tallinn Female Choir in the SINE player. Not sure what changes were made. Did I miss this update from before?


Yup this looks brand new! I have it too, but I'm currently too busy downloading BBC Pro haha! I hope it's something to do with the shorts? fingers crossed. LMK if you download it!


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## emilio_n (May 19, 2021)

galactic orange said:


> I see an update to Tallinn Female Choir in the SINE player. Not sure what changes were made. Did I miss this update from before?


I am getting this error when I try to upgrade the Female Choir.
Anybody knows how to fix it?


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## galactic orange (May 19, 2021)

My download went fine, but I am at work and can’t check it. Maybe the changelog is on the OT website.

Edit: I couldn’t find any information on the site.


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## jbuhler (May 19, 2021)

The update seems to have tried to fix some of the issue with the timing in the woman's choir short syllables. They seem a bit better than they were, but I'm still finding issues and the timing is not simply the result of particular round robins since if I repeat a pattern I get different offsets of the syllable start with the same round robin. Needless to say that means this patch remains almost useless.


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## Baronvonheadless (May 19, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> The update seems to have tried to fix some of the issue with the timing in the woman's choir short syllables. They seem a bit better than they were, but I'm still finding issues and the timing is not simply the result of particular round robins since if I repeat a pattern I get different offsets of the syllable start with the same round robin. Needless to say that means this patch remains almost useless.


So weird, I wonder what the issue is because the female ark choirs I have and the Klingon Mordus choir I have do not have this same problem on the shorts


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## jbuhler (May 19, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> So weird, I wonder what the issue is because the female ark choirs I have and the Klingon Mordus choir I have do not have this same problem on the shorts


Agreed, though with the case of Ark 2, they were going for a different kind of thing with the syllables, and I think that made some difference. In any case, disabling these two RRs seems to help some:






ETA: For reasons I don't understand, shortening the release samples seems to help some as well.


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## frangolupo23 (May 19, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> So I grabbed Tallin last night, I already had acquired the choirs ahead of time, thinking that's all I needed.
> 
> Because of OT's a la carte option I realized I have SO many patches from a bunch of their libraries, but I didn't own a full library by them. I thought for awhile and decided this would add something different that I don't have to my arsenal and wow...what a good call.
> 
> ...


Before purchasing the library, I asked OT Support about the syllables because the demos seemed to indicate that every phrase started with Sta-Men and so on. I was told that the syllables worked just as they do in the MA libraries. As far as I see now, that does not quite seem to be the case because you cannot simply identify individual round robins (syllables) and deactivate them. I wish that was possible. Working on my demo I used a workaround by triggering a number of syllables in silence before the first audible one. That works at the beginning of phrases, but in the middle of lines it is more complicated, albeit not impossible, of course. If anybody knows how to deactivate syllables in Tallinn as you see fit for the particular project, I would be grateful to learn. Personally, I would prefer the system from Soundiron’s Requiem Light. There you can trigger individual syllables with the help of key switches.


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## msjdowner (May 19, 2021)

frangolupo23 said:


> Before purchasing the library, I asked OT Support about the syllables because the demos seemed to indicate that every phrase started with Sta-Men and so on. I was told that the syllables worked just as they do in the MA libraries. As far as I see now, that does not quite seem to be the case because you cannot simply identify individual round robins (syllables) and deactivate them. I wish that was possible. Working on my demo I used a workaround by triggering a number of syllables in silence before the first audible one. That works at the beginning of phrases, but in the middle of lines it is more complicated, albeit not impossible, of course. If anybody knows how to deactivate syllables in Tallinn as you see fit for the particular project, I would be grateful to learn. Personally, I would prefer the system from Soundiron’s Requiem Light. There you can trigger individual syllables with the help of key switches.



You can do that with sine player - I've just repeatedly loaded the short syllable into one instance of sine player, and set each patch to only use one syllable by disabling all the other RRs. So the first one only plays the first RR. The second plays the second etc.. you can then change the way that the patch gets activated so that it uses a keyswitch. So now in my one instance of sine, every time I play I start with the first syllable. And I can choose what syllable gets played next with a keyswitch. It's no longer "random" and you can avoid the ones that give you timing issues.

Interesting to hear how good the strings are. I just bought the female choir - but am missing a chamber sized orchestra and do look the sound/style. Tempting...


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## jbuhler (May 19, 2021)

Working more with the short syllables, I think they do work better now, so long as you don't repeat the same note too many times in a row with a constant rhythm (which is how I initially tested them). Here is a quick test, with the update, not much programming, and everything aligned to the grid. Each rhythmic pattern is repeated first using the p layer then the mf layer, women then men. For this I didn't disable any of the round robins.

View attachment Noodle 9.0.mp3


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## ProfoundSilence (May 20, 2021)

frangolupo23 said:


> Before purchasing the library, I asked OT Support about the syllables because the demos seemed to indicate that every phrase started with Sta-Men and so on. I was told that the syllables worked just as they do in the MA libraries. As far as I see now, that does not quite seem to be the case because you cannot simply identify individual round robins (syllables) and deactivate them. I wish that was possible. Working on my demo I used a workaround by triggering a number of syllables in silence before the first audible one. That works at the beginning of phrases, but in the middle of lines it is more complicated, albeit not impossible, of course. If anybody knows how to deactivate syllables in Tallinn as you see fit for the particular project, I would be grateful to learn. Personally, I would prefer the system from Soundiron’s Requiem Light. There you can trigger individual syllables with the help of key switches.


You can disable round robins the exact same way you can in ark 

The round robins are displayed like a little wheel, click on the ones you don't want to hear and it'll unload them from RAM

Jbuhler just posted this in the same thread, The post exactly before yours. He Even talked about how he disabled the round robins.


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## biomuse (May 20, 2021)

I grabbed the choirs á la carte last night. I have Elite strings, which can do the restrained senza thing to a T, and I have plenty of organs and good reverbs, so those portions were covered. Had to do it as a total Pärtisan.


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## frangolupo23 (May 20, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> You can disable round robins the exact same way you can in ark
> 
> The round robins are displayed like a little wheel, click on the ones you don't want to hear and it'll unload them from RAM
> 
> Jbuhler just posted this in the same thread, The post exactly before yours. He Even talked about how he disabled the round robins.


Thank you for the advice! Sadly, it doesn‘t seem to work that way on my side. When I disable the round robins, the automatic order of syllables still starts with Sta-Men etc. Might I be making some kind of mistake?


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## dcoscina (May 20, 2021)

I picked up the Female Choirs/ Love the SINE player and the a la cart options. Worth it!!


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## MusicalWhiskey (May 21, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> So I grabbed Tallin last night, I already had acquired the choirs ahead of time, thinking that's all I needed.
> 
> Because of OT's a la carte option I realized I have SO many patches from a bunch of their libraries, but I didn't own a full library by them. I thought for awhile and decided this would add something different that I don't have to my arsenal and wow...what a good call.
> 
> ...


I'm also still learning how to tame the RR syllables, and I'm also struggling with syncing all these syllables to the music. You definitely need to use your ears and ignore the lines in the DAW a bit more than most libraries haha.


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## ProfoundSilence (May 21, 2021)

MusicalWhiskey said:


> I'm also still learning how to tame the RR syllables, and I'm also struggling with syncing all these syllables to the music. You definitely need to use your ears and ignore the lines in the DAW a bit more than most libraries haha.


This is unfortunately the standard for choirs with syllables due to the way they work. 

For instance if you use the sound "stray"

The "str" has to happen entirely before the beat lands for the "ae"


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## easyrider (May 22, 2021)

The Female Choirs sounds great.


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## ScarletJerry (May 23, 2021)

easyrider said:


> The Female Choirs sounds great.


They do. Got them and not sure about picking up the male choir as Well.


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## Baronvonheadless (May 23, 2021)

Just did my first piece combining Tallin and Albion Tundra! With a smidge of BBC Pro.

Taking a break from my typical orchestral style and venturing into softer ambience!


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## frangolupo23 (May 24, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> Just did my first piece combining Tallin and Albion Tundra! With a smidge of BBC Pro.
> 
> Taking a break from my typical orchestral style and venturing into softer ambience!



Would be cool to hear Tallinn and Albion Tundra on their own for comparison.


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## Heinigoldstein (May 24, 2021)

frangolupo23 said:


> Thank you for the advice! Sadly, it doesn‘t seem to work that way on my side. When I disable the round robins, the automatic order of syllables still starts with Sta-Men etc. Might I be making some kind of mistake?


Are you sure you‘re editing the tight articulation ? This happens to me frequently. It is not selected by K S, it needs to have the dot before the name.


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## Baronvonheadless (May 24, 2021)

frangolupo23 said:


> Would be cool to hear Tallinn and Albion Tundra on their own for comparison.


As in the library by itself? As in all the demos for each individual library online? Lol
Or you mean without bbc? (Cuz it’s barely on there)

to clarify it’s mostly tundra, with the violin from tallin doing the ‘melody’ in between the empty spaces of chords/brass of the first section. And then tallins female choir in the middle. Bbc pro just has the bass flute at the end and buried in the middle after the female choir line.


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## ism (May 24, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> As in the library by itself? As in all the demos for each individual library online? Lol
> Or you mean without bbc? (Cuz it’s barely on there)
> 
> to clarify it’s mostly tundra, with the violin from tallin doing the ‘melody’ in between the empty spaces of chords/brass of the first section. And then tallins female choir in the middle. Bbc pro just has the bass flute at the end and buried in the middle after the female choir line.



This really works in adding Tallinn as the missing fine brush stokes that Tundra, for all it’s gorgeousness, lacks.

Lovely piece, which really suggests expansive possibilities.


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## frangolupo23 (May 24, 2021)

Heinigoldstein said:


> Are you sure you‘re editing the tight articulation ? This happens to me frequently. It is not selected by K S, it needs to have the dot before the name.


I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I'll have a look!


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## frangolupo23 (May 24, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> As in the library by itself? As in all the demos for each individual library online? Lol
> Or you mean without bbc? (Cuz it’s barely on there)
> 
> to clarify it’s mostly tundra, with the violin from tallin doing the ‘melody’ in between the empty spaces of chords/brass of the first section. And then tallins female choir in the middle. Bbc pro just has the bass flute at the end and buried in the middle after the female choir line.


Alright, cheers, that sheds light on the arrangement!


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## fiction (Jul 4, 2021)

I've been trying to learn the sine player more since I've bought this library and I'm having trouble to find any video or guide from the OT documents to achieve something:

Does anyone know if I can select, for example, the sustains soft articulation from the Violins, Violas and Celli and play them at the same time as an ensemble without having to open more tracks in the daw?


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## holywilly (Jul 4, 2021)

fiction said:


> I've been trying to learn the sine player more since I've bought this library and I'm having trouble to find any video or guide from the OT documents to achieve something:
> 
> Does anyone know if I can select, for example, the sustains soft articulation from the Violins, Violas and Celli and play them at the same time as an ensemble without having to open more tracks in the daw?


Just assign all midi channel to 01 of all the instruments.


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## fiction (Jul 4, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Just assign all midi channel to 01 of all the instruments.


That was easy! Thank you


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## VSriHarsha (Jul 4, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Just assign all midi channel to 01 of all the instruments.


I’ve seen a or 2 videos on Sine Player. The last time I downloaded I had problem with resizing the interface, in & outta host. How’s the window resize goin on with a little old laptops like 2010 ? 
Apart from that, yes, from what I’ve seen, it’s a very, very efficient player. You can play like multiple articulations with just one patch, well, as in, stacking up together.


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## zeng (Aug 7, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> This?
> 
> 34:56 when he plays Bb to G If so yes can confirm.



This also happens when I play from D# to C. What about you? (On all octaves and mics).


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## Toecutter (Aug 8, 2021)

zeng said:


> This also happens when I play from D# to C. What about you? (On all octaves and mics).


Yep, this issue seems to be in every legato patch.


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## zeng (Aug 8, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> Yep, this issue seems to be in every legato patch.


Any response from @OrchestralTools yet?


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## Robin (Aug 8, 2021)

zeng said:


> Any response from @OrchestralTools yet?





> Hi Robin,
> 
> we have this issue on our list and our editors will look into it when we get to Tallinn!
> I*m afraid I don't have an ETA at the moment.
> ...


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## zeng (Aug 8, 2021)

Great, at least they are aware of this issue now.
Thank you!


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## LamaRose (Aug 9, 2021)

Do these even work on the new M1 Macs? I'm gonna go GD ballistic, if not.


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## Sunny Schramm (Sep 2, 2022)

Update available via SINE.


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## ism (Sep 3, 2022)

Just installed the updates .. but could someone remind me how to find release notes for OT updates ...


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## purplehamster (Sep 3, 2022)

This is all I could find.






Tallinn - Notes - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


Hotfixes (these updates will be shown in MyLicenses if your version needs them - if no updates are shown, you have the current version). Female Choir: Optimized




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com


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## ism (Sep 4, 2022)

purplehamster said:


> This is all I could find.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah thanks. Looks like there’s fixes to some of the legato issues that were noted earlier in this thread.


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## MusicalWhiskey (Sep 6, 2022)

ism said:


> Ah thanks. Looks like there’s fixes to some of the legato issues that were noted earlier in this thread.


Oh awesome! I haven’t used the library much due those issues. Will check it out later today.


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## Pablocrespo (Sep 6, 2022)

I wish they could make working with syllables easier, I their starting points are all over the place, and the only way to work consistently is rendering to audio


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