# Ircam tools 1.1: SPAT, VERB and others. thoughts?



## macteacher (Dec 6, 2014)

The newly released Spat v3 includes Verb 3.0 as well and I'm considering picking it up as it's currently at a discount for the new release.

There's also the The Ircam Tools 1.1 bundle contains the following plug-ins:

Spat v3 - AU / VST / AAX Native
Verb v3 - AU / VST / AAX Native
Verb Session v3 - AU / VST / AAX Native
HEar v3 - AU / VST / AAX Native
TRAX Transformer v3 - AU / VST / AAX Native
TRAX Cross Synthesis v3 - AU / VST / AAX Native
TRAX Source Filter v3 - AU / VST / AAX Native

This can be had for a little bit more, also at a discount and I was wondering if anyone has used these other plugins and what your experience has been for:

Verb Session v3 - AU / VST / AAX Native
HEar v3 - AU / VST / AAX Native
TRAX Transformer v3 - AU / VST / AAX Native
TRAX Cross Synthesis v3 - AU / VST / AAX Native
TRAX Source Filter v3 - AU / VST / AAX Native

Thanks!


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## paulmatthew (Dec 6, 2014)

I'm a big fan of verb session and I know some of us here use it . I haven't upgraded to Verb yet , but verb session is a great plugin to start with. I was blown away how it sounded with orchestral instruments. It is now my choice for strings , winds and brass. I opt for Valhalla room or QL Spaces for drums and vocals. It doesn't allow for spatial placement , just reverb and verb session I believe still requires Ilok2.


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## macteacher (Dec 6, 2014)

Thanks!

I just jumped for Phoenixverb and R2 as they were having a huge bundle sale as well, so the VERB component is a bonus at this point, so my primary interest is SPAT, but since VERB comes with it no matter what, I'd love to hear about the rest of the bundle as well.

Though I imagine that VERB session is quick, easy, and uses less resources than VERB, which is why I imagine that it's included in the package, but I'm just speculating until I hear differently.



Thanks for your input!!


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## Hannes_F (Dec 6, 2014)

You can demo them and VSS2, that would be the best way to find how they work for you.

To answer your question I have the SPAT bundle, VSS2 and a boatload of reverbs (too many) including R2. All those are excellent but what that means for you I am not sure. All this is highly subjective.

I know, it is always pacifying to hear other's opinions, however trust your ears. Often the first impression is quite right (not always). 

All the best for your decisions, Hannes


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## macteacher (Dec 6, 2014)

Thanks! I do feel SPAT is better for my needs, so I am deciding between SPAT and the SPAT bundle if I think it will be helpful and hear good things.

Since you have both SPAT and VSS2 I'd be curious if you feel one or the other is more useful in certain situations.

thanks.


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## Jack Weaver (Dec 6, 2014)

Verb is OK. A good reverb for sure, but not a 'world-beater'.

SPAT is a great everyday tool. I have a hard time remembering any mix in the past year or two that I've done without it. 

.


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## macteacher (Dec 6, 2014)

thats a great endorsement!

Has anyone used TRAX at all on live, VO, or sampled vocals?


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## The Darris (Dec 6, 2014)

Verb Session V3 is my work horse in mixing/positioning my libraries together. I couple it with EWQL Spaces as the final reverb to glue it all together. 

I like it because it is very simple and intuitive to use. It wields the sound I love right now and it was very inexpensive. The cons are that is does lack some features that would be nice but for the most part, you get all the basics you need in an algo reverb.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 7, 2014)

macteacher @ Sun Dec 07 said:


> Since you have both SPAT and VSS2 I'd be curious if you feel one or the other is more useful in certain situations.



This is what I personally think:

Orchestral / hybrid music with samples (wholesale approach): VSS2 + Phoenix & R2. There is nothing you can't do with that combination, and it will work fast. No need for Ircam Verb in that setup. 

EDIT: I should have said: No _mandatory _need for Ircam Verb in that setup.

Orchestral / hybrid music with many live tracks (wholesale approach): Same as above. 

Orchestral / hybrid with a small number of live tracks (boutique approach): Tight race between VSS2 and SPAT, however SPAT will need more time and resources. Plus, you'll need to set up multichannel tracks to be halfway effective and not every DAW is capable for that.

Foley work: SPAT.

Moving sound sources in 3D: SPAT.

I used TRAX in a number of projects, however it was a resource hog and not 100% stable.


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## macteacher (Dec 7, 2014)

Thanks so much for the detailed response!

I do post production work also so the foley and moving sources mention is appreciated.

I do most of my work in Protools at the moment, (composition as well).

VSS2 does color a little bit to my ears, but quickness and ease is of course a plus and in certain projects that will prove to be a minimal concern.

I will be in situations on a regular basis where samples would be added to live tracks.

Am I correct in getting from your comments that SPAT would be challenging from a resource perspective crossing from "small number of live tracks" to "many live tracks"?

Also, I will be trying to place a dry bassoon into primarily BML library, (my main library), compositions successfully as well as adding other additional dry elements into that "hall" in the traditional positions.

I was having mixed results with the TRAX demo but I wasn't sure that it was me due to the tweakablility so I appreciate the perspective.

I do deal with animation a bit and the ability to alter voices is appealing to me as well as morphing some choir sounds.

any additional thoughts are appreciated!


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## Jack Weaver (Dec 7, 2014)

With all respect to Hannes whose expertise and opinion I both admire and welcome, I don't fully understand how one set of reverb/spatialization tools can be the best for all projects. I do understand that he's trying to help give answers to the OP. 

Even within each of Hannes' enumerated genres every piece of music has such different texture, tempo and tessitura (the three T's, I guess). Additionally there is how the reverb/spatialization is used. For example, how are these split out onto the various sections of the orchestra/ensemble - busses/auxes, etc.? I don't ever remember using just one reverb type on a mix. But I've discussed that on several other threads on this forum. 

There are so many good tools these days! Certainly each one mentioned in this thread has their strong points and I've heard good mixes with all of them. 

Perhaps my only recommendation is finding a couple you like and start to really learn how to optimize them. Then buy a couple more and move them into your scheme. Keep emulating the mixes you hear. Push your current tools into technique areas they were never originally designed to go. I always try to end up with a mix that has a sense of 'stage' or 'presence'. Keep trying things to accomplish that. It seems like the OP is on his way to doing that. 

Regarding SPAT's resource usage, I don't find it too bad - and I use it on my master machine which is a Mac Pro 2008 8-core 3.2 GHz. It's 6 1/2 years old! Mind you, I don't use it on every instrument. Like I mentioned above I don't use the same reverb/spatialization method on everything. But I do use typically 4-8 instances. It hardly adds to the workload and deploys well across all the cores within Logic X. This leaves plenty of resource overhead for all the other plugs I typically use. 

Too much of any one reverb/spatialization robs a mix of its magic. It becomes too identifiable to the ear. We've got to keep tricking the ear into a sense of believability. After all, most often these days we're mixing music created non-realtime with samples. We're musical graphic artists. We're no longer photographers. We either create (or co-create) a musical vision. 

This is one of the reasons that MIR didn't happen to the extent that VSL had hoped. Mixes completely done in MIR sound.... well, too iconoclastically MIR-ish.. I use MIR quite often. But too much salt ruins any soup. Over usage of one non-real reverb/spatializtion becomes poison instead of medicine. 

Now if you want to talk about a resource hog there's always B2. B2 sounds great on many things but in my opinion it needs to be on a UAD card or other dedicated hardware. By the time I add my second instance my mix is thrown to its knees. I wish I could use it more. Yes, I have read about ways to optimize its usage but these methods seem to take the fun out of it for me. There are few tools out there that combine reverb and reverb fx the way that B2 does. 

(BTW, I don't have VSS2 so I can't really say anything about it.)

edit - yes, moving things around 3d in SPAT is great. Since the OP does post work, don't forget that SPAT can be surround. 

.


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## macteacher (Dec 7, 2014)

Thanks for the perspective here. I do have other reverbs and do mix it up a bit. My current happiness is coming from the newly acquired Phoenix and R2, so I'm exploring the possibilities there.

As mentioned, SPAT comes with VERB, so that will be a an additional tool.

Every project will present it's own challenges certainly.

I do also feel that everyone's comments here have been tailored to be helpful without making decisions for me or interfering with what my own personal observations or creative process.

That is always appreciated. 

I only have the funds for one spatialization tool, and because of what I hear I think it will be SPAT at the moment, but VSS2 is also impressive after demoing it as well and may be added to the arsenal.

Though if I bypass the IRCAM Tools 1 and just go for SPAT, I could get VSS2 as well, (even though the sale is done), I was just tempted to get the rest of the IRCAM tools bundle also as it is a nice discount and the tools seem helpful.

I am enjoying the Hear plugin as I have to work with headphones often.

TRAX is a powerful tool, but I'm still on the fence on the usability of it in my situation.


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## jamwerks (Dec 7, 2014)

I may have posted more or less the same info elsewhere, but I demo'd both VSS2 and SPAT. I did a very unscientific run through. VSS2 was good (ok) on some things, but didn't do much for Adagio.

SPAT on the other hand brought Adagio into prospective. You can really (finally) hear the sections in-place, bouncing around the hall like it should, something that panning along doesn't do at all. To me the Adagio-Agitato line is quite a value, so I'll be buying it basically for that. It also sounded great on VSL WW's, that I will start using again. Also sounds nice on the Symphonic Spheres string sections.

I concure that SPAT isn't the right tool for the like of the Hollywood series, and the Cine Samples VI's.

Also, I bought IRCAM verb session a while back, sounds good to me but lacks the control that the more expensive Verb3 has, so it's really hit of miss depending on the source and sound you're after. I've pretty much stopped using it in favor of Spaces.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 7, 2014)

macteacher @ Sun Dec 07 said:


> Am I correct in getting from your comments that SPAT would be challenging from a resource perspective crossing from "small number of live tracks" to "many live tracks"?



1 stereo instance of SPAT needs 0.7 % of CPU on my computer with the reverb part deactivated and 0.8 % with the reverb part activated. That equals to 12 resp. 14 instances of VSS2 on my computer (Win7-64bit, i7 920 @2.8 kHz).

Therefore it is certainly a difference whether you want to distribute 10 or 150 individual tracks or busses.



Jack Weaver said:


> With all respect to Hannes whose expertise and opinion I both admire and welcome, I don't fully understand how one set of reverb/spatialization tools can be the best for all projects. I do understand that he's trying to help give answers to the OP.



You are 100% correct as always, Jack. That is why I wrote 'try it yourself' above and should have been sticking to that. As you say, it depends a lot on the actual simplification.

Instead, assuming the OP was laboring with limited funds (who doesn't) and quite urgently trying to get started, I was lured into doing a gross simplification - that I already regret.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 7, 2014)

If you Macteacher are indeed a verifiable teacher at a school, you can get an edu discount off the list price.

Here's a 5 minute walk through I did of Verb Session all of which applies to Spat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZYPJwxITB0 

To get the most of out of Spat you need to understand the concepts as presented in the video. With Spat, as with any of the Verb-based product, you are creating a 3 dimensional room in which you're placing your samples. The dimensions are in meters. So you have to work out length, width, height then multiply together to create the m3 (cubic meters). Once that's done you're on your way to designing the room in which you want to place your sounds. 

We used Verb Session as the basis of our Visual Orchestration 3 course because it was easy to grasp and to use for setting up rooms similar to where the major sample libraries were recorded. And because you can easily reset the RT60s for each room so you can compare. 

Once you have this down, Spat is a much easier learn.


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## macteacher (Dec 7, 2014)

thanks guys.

the specific CPU drains are very interesting as well as all the other comments.

I don't mind spending a little more for more functionality, even though a learning curve usually comes along with that.

I'm inclined to bypass the tools package and just get SPAT, (which includes VERB), though the difference is $160 to also have the TRAX tools, Verbsession, and Hear which seems like a good value which is why I was considering it.

I've ruled out MIR as right for me as well, so VSS2 might wind up in the arsenal at some point as well. 

I'm also playing with Proximity from Tokyo Dawn, (free...), as a possible alternative to VSS2 for low CPU usage in my tests since I'll probably use other Reverbs.

Any other commentary is also welcome!


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## jcrosby (Dec 8, 2014)

SPAT is certainly fanatastic but when having to consider fitting it in to a template also running VIs and additional DSP it's a bit heavy on resources. I demo'd it alongside my license of VSS2 and generally preferred VSS with a few reverb axes to SPAT. Spat seems more tailored toward Surround mixing and post production in which case it's certainly in a class by itself…. Amazing but pricy next to VSS and demanding on CPU resources which are something to consider depending on the kind of template you run...


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## jcrosby (Dec 8, 2014)

jcrosby @ Mon Dec 08 said:


> SPAT is certainly fanatastic but when having to consider fitting it in to a template also running VIs and additional DSP it's a bit heavy on resources. I demo'd it alongside my license of VSS2 and generally preferred VSS with a few reverb axes to SPAT. Spat seems more tailored toward Surround mixing and post production in which case it's certainly in a class by itself…. Amazing but pricy next to VSS and demanding on CPU resources which are something to consider depending on the kind of template you run...



One other thing to consider about VSS2 is it will perform many of the same tricks as SPAT or MIR (but only apply those tricks on the direct signal and ER as opposed to the verb…) 

Regardless you can position things away from each other, facing opposing walls, rear walls, etc to create similar types of spatial separation and reflective behavior that you would also achieve with SPAT or MIR. 

Do I think it's quite as accurate or elegant? No, not necessarily. But ultimately found it much easier to deal with as you have an entire soundstage that consistently updates itself with each new instance you add. As a result you can quickly see when spatialized 'step on each other' spatially; ultimately allowing for more accurate spatial separation in the context of a soundstage, let alone leaving you way more CPU to worry about VIs and other DSP you might want to take into consideration...


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## vicontrolu (Dec 8, 2014)

Hey Jamwerks,

I am in the same boat as you regarding Adagio. Would you mind posting a test with, for instance, the shortest articulation on the violins + SPAT ERs (no tail) please? I d like to listen how well it sounds since i am considering purchasing SPAT too.

Thx!


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## macteacher (Dec 8, 2014)

The more that we get into this, the more the wisdom of Jack's comments on having more than one tool to fit a specific job make sense.

Hannes of course alluded to this too, especially on resource heavy mixes.

As mentioned, a lot of my work will be placing other instruments into the spitfire orchestral environment that Spitfire doesn't have "in the hall" yet.

I'd be curious to see if anyone else is doing this specifically with the spitfire libraries and what tools they're using.

Obviously dry sample instrument placement into other wet libraries would be a similar endeavor.

Thanks!


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## Diffusor (Dec 8, 2014)

I happen to be selling my IRCAM tools bundle in the classifieds if anyone is interested and want to save some coin from buying new.


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## Joe_D (Dec 8, 2014)

macteacher @ Sun Dec 07 said:


> thanks guys.
> I'm inclined to bypass the tools package and just get SPAT, (which includes VERB), though the difference is $160 to also have the TRAX tools, Verbsession, and Hear which seems like a good value which is why I was considering it.



Hi macteacher,

The price difference is only $100 right now at dontcrack; $499 for SPAT, vs $599 for the bundle. 

http://store.dontcrack.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=54&products_id=971

I have been mighty tempted by SPAT in the past, and might get it during this sale. I have been pretty happy with VERB Session, and VSS2 is a huge improvement over the original. I haven't used SPAT, but it seems to be incredibly powerful. Like you, I am intrigued by TRAX, but don't know how much I would really use it. It is a bit instructive that no one has chimed in about finding it useful. 

If you can dig up re-peat's demo videos for SPAT, I think you would find them to be really enlightening. Unfortunately, Piet (re-peat) usually takes them down pretty quickly.

Good luck with your decision,

Joe


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## macteacher (Dec 8, 2014)

Is that Don't Crack store legit? $599 is about $330 less than the best legit stores I know of.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 9, 2014)

macteacher @ Tue Dec 09 said:


> Is that Don't Crack store legit? $599 is about $330 less than the best legit stores I know of.



I bought IrcamTools there in 2012 for USD 699.00. Was happy like anything to get it at that price (still am).


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## macteacher (Dec 9, 2014)

I emailed Flux, Dontcrack is a legit 3rd party distributer...


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## re-peat (Dec 9, 2014)

(...)


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## macteacher (Dec 9, 2014)

Thanks for this great post.

I am interested in it apart from using VERB.

The complexity of SPAT does seem a bit daunting in the absence of further documentation.

The perspective of automation of performance is a very interesting one.

I'm curious if the scripting of these parameters are available real time during playback and possibly be mapped to a midi controller.


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## macteacher (Dec 9, 2014)

Yes this makes sense from a pricing perspective.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 9, 2014)

macteacher @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> I'm curious if the scripting of these parameters are available real time during playback and possibly be mapped to a midi controller.



I guess with 'scripting of these parameters' you mean automation in the DAW. If so, then yes to both. Under the SpatV3 logo in the middle you find the activation of the automation. BTW under the logos on the right side you find two gearwheels and if you cklick on them you get into a toolbox/setup menu. There is also a shortcut to the manual.


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## macteacher (Dec 9, 2014)

thanks!


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## dgburns (Dec 9, 2014)

Joe_D @ Tue Dec 09 said:


> macteacher @ Sun Dec 07 said:
> 
> 
> > thanks guys.
> ...



Been wanting Spat for a while now.Can you confirm the price is for Spat v3,the specs seem out of date somehow.I checked on the Flux website,and they are selling for 1290.00 usd... that is one heck of a sale????


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## macteacher (Dec 9, 2014)

I've been trying to confirm that this is V3 too.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 10, 2014)

dgburns @ Wed Dec 10 said:


> Been wanting Spat for a while now.Can you confirm the price is for Spat v3,the specs seem out of date somehow.



The picture shows an older version of Spat. However I received Spat v3 in 2014 as a free upgrade to the one that arrived with the Ircam Tools 1.1 bundle in 2012. Same with the other programs.


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## scarred bunny (Dec 10, 2014)

> "Been wanting Spat for a while now.Can you confirm the price is for Spat v3,the specs seem out of date somehow.I checked on the Flux website,and they are selling for 1290.00 usd... that is one heck of a sale????"



I've been repeating to myself for the last couple months, "I will not buy more stuff, I will not buy more stuff, I will not buy more stuff"... although I've had my eyes on Spat for a good while now. When I saw the dontcrack special price mentioned on this site, I caved and went and bought it on impulse. Too good a deal to pass up. 

It's Spat V3 alright. 64-bit version and all. (I just bought Spat, not the Ircam Tools bundle - but I'd presume it's V3 in both of them.) 

Played with it for a while yesterday. Should have seen the smile on my face. :D 

Glad to see re-peat is back. I'd be delighted to see some more audio/video examples of what you're talking about with parameter automation and the like.


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## jamwerks (Dec 10, 2014)

Just picked it up on Don't crac. Great price, and it is V3.


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## macteacher (Dec 10, 2014)

I also confirmed through email it's all the recent versions.

BTW I also noticed that the full FLUX Native pack, (also all the recent versions), with 

Alchemist
Solera II
Syrah
Epure II
Elixir
The Pure Series

is on sale till 1/5/15 for $499 instead of $1299.

Anyone using these care to comment?


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## Diffusor (Dec 11, 2014)

Guess I will be keeping mine then. Didn't realize it had gone on sale for that low. Great piece of work nonetheless.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 19, 2014)

We now have matched pricing to DontCrack.

Spat Pricing at Alexander Publishing - $499
http://www.alexanderpublishing.com/Products/SPAT-v3---Room-Acoustics-Simulation__AS-SPAT.aspx (http://www.alexanderpublishing.com/Prod ... -SPAT.aspx)

Spat Bundle Pricing - $599
http://www.alexanderpublishing.com/Products/IRCAM-TOOLS-BUNDLE-11-%28SPATVERBTRAXHEarVERB-Session%29__AS-IRCAM-spc-Tools.aspx (http://www.alexanderpublishing.com/Prod ... Tools.aspx)


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## Udo (Dec 20, 2014)

Peter Alexander, promotions for your company don't belong in this section of the forum!


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## Daryl (Dec 20, 2014)

Udo @ Sat Dec 20 said:


> Peter Alexander, promotions for your company don't belong in this section of the forum!


To be fair, this whole thread is in the wrong forum. :wink: 

D


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 20, 2014)

Udo @ Sat Dec 20 said:


> Peter Alexander, promotions for your company don't belong in this section of the forum!



Since a link was posted for Dontcrack, a non-advertiser and non-forum supporter, it is therefore fair for me to announce we have matching rates.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 20, 2014)

Moved to commercial announcements.


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## re-peat (Dec 21, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Sun Dec 21 said:


> Moved to commercial announcements.


Well, then I delete my previous contribution to this thread and withdraw again from active participation. 
A futile protest, I know (especially when anticipating the predictable fact that this post will be deleted much faster than it took me to write it). 

Let’s get this clear: a non-commercial thread is moved into the 'Commercial Announcements' forum ONLY _to make Alexander Publishing’s commercially motivated posts acceptable???_ Dear me.

This decision is disappointing in the extreme, Hannes. Yet another sad confirmation of our fears that the increasing stranglehold of certain developers is fast ruining V.I.

This thread (which should have been put, from the start, in the ‘Post-Production & Mixing Discussion’ forum) was _never_ a commercial announcement, Alexander *made* it into one. The way he always does. Like Midas, whose mere touch turned everything into gold, just about every single thread that this developer touches, instantly becomes a blatant commercial manoeuvre to increase his business here.

Especially when considering what occurred only a week ago with Daniel James (immediately reprimanded in public for, allegedly, ‘unethically motivated’ comments), this latest farce involving Alexander Publishing — a developer who obviously believes ‘fair’ is spelled ‘profitable’ — is particularly unsettling, I find. Because, unlike Daniel, Mr. Alexander never gets warned or threatened with a ban for “behaving in a way a developer shouldn’t behave”, does he? No sir, this developer fully enjoys and abuses the immunity that his so-called V.I.-support has bought him, and he is once again allowed free self-serving reign, this time even getting an entire thread moved to a place where it doesn’t belong only to accommodate for his profit-seeking purposes. Fair indeed.

Worrying, Hannes. Very, very worrying.

I bid you a rather disgusted good-bye.

Piet

_


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## Stephen Rees (Dec 21, 2014)

It does seem rather odd to me too for what its worth.


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## mk282 (Dec 21, 2014)

re-peat @ 21.12.2014 said:


> Hannes_F @ Sun Dec 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Moved to commercial announcements.
> ...




Agreed fully. This was completely unnecessary and not objective moderator behaviour.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 21, 2014)

Piet, sometimes you behave like a little kid, really.

I moved it to Commercial Announcements after just reading the last few posts, and especially after Daryl's remark. Re-reading other parts of it I discovered that there was functional content in it, I had even contributed to it. However I am not a moderator in Commercial Announcements so I could not move it back to Post pro where it belongs. I was to ask another mod today to do it because it was late after a long, long day.

You are thinking too much into it, and your increasing distrust into my personal integrity is what really annoys me - at the utmost.

PS.: Actually I was about to add a note to it, however I really assumed that people here are intelligent here to assume that - questions of integrity aside - I would not be as stupid as covering a commercial interest with such an obvious move. A little bit more trust, please.

You really need an explanation and justification of every tiny mod action ... it's unbelievable. Kindergarten at its best.


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## mk282 (Dec 21, 2014)

No, he is right.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 21, 2014)

mk282, I don't care about your opinion in that special case but Piet should know me better.


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## mk282 (Dec 21, 2014)

Cool, a forum where people's opinions don't matter. There are better places online with better and more understanding moderators than this cesspool. Bye.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 21, 2014)

mk282, I explained the situation quite clearly. If you choose to simply ignore that than why should I care? Your "a forum where people's opinions don't matter" is a willful distortion of facts, actually diffamation.


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## Daryl (Dec 21, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Sun Dec 21 said:


> I moved it to Commercial Announcements after just reading the last few posts, and especially after Daryl's remark.


Sorry Hannes. I was meaning that it should be mixed to the Post Pro Mixing forum, as it wasn't about samples. My bad.

D


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## Hannes_F (Dec 21, 2014)

Not your fault at all Daryl, you were right. It is moved now.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 21, 2014)

People care about VI, they really do. They greatly value it - especially those who have been burned at Northern Sounds, Soundsonline et al. What may appear to mods sometimes as alarmisim / hysteria / petulance at their actions is often (usually) because we really do value the independence and freedom of speech here at VI-C. Put a handful of questionable actions together over a period of time, and its inevitable that people do start putting 2 and 2 together - regardless of what answer they calculate.

For sure this thread doesn't belong here - the sooner it's moved the better imo (if imo counts as a valid rationale for posting, and I do rather hope for all our sakes it still is). And the sooner it does, the sooner it can get back on topic. Meanwhile, Peter may like to start his own promotions related to the subject in Commercial Announcements in a separate post.

Good to see Piet back - if he occasionally goes OTT, he's a very knowledgeable, welcome and often necessary voice here.


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## Daryl (Dec 21, 2014)

I have no problem with a vendor telling me the price of a product that I'm interested in. After all, I would be miffed if I found that I could have got it cheaper, and said vendor chose to keep quiet, for rear of upsetting people.

What I don't kike is a developer popping up in a thread about a product other than their own, just to convince people that their product is better. That stinks.

D


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## AC986 (Dec 21, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Sun Dec 21 said:


> Not your fault at all Daryl, you were right. It is moved now.



Hannes I like to think you and I are friends even though we never meet.

In this case at this Christmas time, I think you should write a pm to Piet and MkII explaining any misunderstandings. I understand you pov Hannes, but in this instance you might want to unravel this confusion.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 21, 2014)

I think suggestions of sales can be helpful because certainly a software bundle for $500 or so will be discussed different from one for $1100. But while pricing is not totally de-linked from the overall discussion such announcements are a two-sided sword of course.

I wanted to move the shop dependent informations to a new thread in Commerical Announcements, but since it is in the Post Pro forum I can not moderate it any more. Oh the irony of it


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 21, 2014)

Sometime in November 2014, as I understand it, Flux/Ircam divested itself of all independent distributors and established global distribution with Pluginvery, a division of Dontcrack of Canada. This was followed by an immediate dramatic discount on all Flux/Ircam products. 

On Monday December 8, 2014 Joe_D posted a link for Dontcrack showing the dramatic discounts that had been invoked. As a dealer this came as a surprise as we nor any other American dealer had been advised of the change. To verify, here's the link to the same bundle on Sweetwater, and the link is current for today December 21, 2014.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/IRCAMTools

Seeing this, I contacted Flux directly and they put me in contact with Eric Nolot, President of Pluginvery. 

On Friday December 19, 2014, Alexander Publishing became part of the Pluginvery family of over 3800 dealers worldwide. We announced this the same night, appropriately, in the Commercial Section at 7:58PM.

In the above thread at 8:04PM we announced our ability to match prices with Dontcrack, and this was 11 days after the original post by Joe_D including the Dontcrack link of which no moderator in the Sample section said anything.

Since then, we've processed sales through the Pluginvery system and I must say, it is the best I've seen for two-step digital download ordering. It is totally customer focused, and we are able to process the order and get the customer their download/reg information very quickly. 

Sincerely,

Peter Alexander


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## macteacher (Dec 21, 2014)

As the OP of this thread I just want to add here that I've appreciated all the information shared about these products, including the first sharing of sale information and confirmation of a legal site vs a illegal one, as someone that considers price and giving a developer their fair share as part of a purchase decision.

In my opinion, the initial sharing of pricing information was a case of one forum member helping another who had no affiliation with the site mentioned.

My reading was that the postings quickly got back on topic as a discussion of the quality of the software, which of course is more important than pricing.

Having been on VI for less than a few months, I do think that there's a confusing line separating commercial announcements and pricing discussions in postings at times.

If I may suggest a policy line here, it would be that pricing posts by folks selling the products should be in the commercial section, and pricing posts in the context of the discussion made by folks that aren't selling the product should be allowed to remain in a discussion post.

I certainly value knowing that software is available from multiple vendors and wouldn't fault them to advertise this fact, even in a reference during a discussion, since this line is kind of fuzzy from what I've seen on VI so far, however I think that this should be clarified moving forward.

The strong opinions voiced so far would seem to vote for the policy I suggested above.

If implemented, it would give a diligent forum member the opportunity to discover a vendor's pricing in the commercial section AND allow a member to discuss a discovered pricing opportunity or sale with their fellow members.

If this isn't a palatable policy, I would suggest informing members that they always have the opportunity to inform other members of sales via PM or having them post in the commercial section.

I do think that the policy, whatever is deemed appropriate, should be clearly stated so that a well meaning moderator can simply point to the policy when taking action.

(well meaning like Hannes, in my opinion, from reading his contributions on this site and the fact that he mentioned that he bought the software at the first site discussed)

I've been grateful to this forum for everyone who shares knowledge freely to help others.

They don't have to do that.

It is a higher calling between artists.

I also don't believe in censorship and people should be able to speak their minds.

However rules and civility help us all create an environment that allow us to work, play, and create together.

A heated argument can sometimes reap benefits that lead to a better environment for everyone as long as we respect each other.

So here's to moving forward to a hopeful future and policies to bring us there. 

It's the holiday season after all.



So any other commentary on usage of either the IRCAM or FLUX mastering plugins?


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## Hannes_F (Dec 22, 2014)

macteacher,

the situation is a bit tricky indeed. I personally enjoy it if we can exchange sales hints from user to user, so usually we try to leave such comments in the threads.

(Note: However whenever I see a special deal anywhere that might be interesting for others I will post it in Commercial Announcements even though I am not a dealer. This has nothing to do with me being a moderator, I did the same as an ordinary forum member.)

That being said - I also enjoy it when dealers/vendors exist that really know their stuff from our composer's and working musician's perspective. I have been a speciality dealer myself in a former phase of my life (but not music related) and know how hard it is to maintain a high level of dealer expertise in a world where everybody and his uncle can fire up a price search in the internet. I suspect that in the long run the big anonymus internet sales portals might kill the expert dealer, so appreciate it when that rare breed that knows their stuff is around here, really.

Now - what brings us to a problem as a forum is when things are overdone (as always). Because that fuels the ongoing suspicion that the forum might be in the hands of developers and dealers, and btw. whenever - any - moderation takes place this suspicion pops up. Which in itself is kind of ridiculous, because in the time I am a moderator I have never received any order by Frederick or other moderators to put on gloves towards developers or dealers or do them favors _or anything_. All I am trying is to be fair.

Now this is the situation: Somebody posts a hint to a webshop in a discussion thread instead of Commercial Announcements. We know it might be problematic but let it run because it might be helpful for many. Now somebody else chimes in several days later and says btw. we can hold that price. Should we really edit that out and not the other comment as well?

Now you might say: Well the one was a normal user, the other is a commercial dealer. And you might say: Put the dealer to Commercial Announcements and let the user in the normal discussion. 

But we can not really make such a distinction for one simple reason: Many companies 'work the internet' by anonymously sending their staff into forums (this does not apply to this thread but is something to consider when finding a general rule). So we can not really make a distinction between a normal user posting 'btw. I saw that offer in that shop' and a dealer posting 'we offer it too'. It could be that both are dealers and why penalize the one that is sailing with open flag? As a result we need to treat them both equally, either they stay in both or they have both to be moved.

Fair?

Hope that helps for understanding, Hannes


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## Daryl (Dec 22, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Mon Dec 22 said:


> So we can not really make a distinction between a normal user posting 'btw. I saw that offer in that shop' and a dealer posting 'we offer it too'. It could be that both are dealers and why penalize the one that is sailing with open flag? As a result we need to treat them both equally, either they stay in both or they have both to be moved.
> 
> Fair?
> 
> Hope that helps for understanding, Hannes


That seems perfectly fair to me.

The big problem is that many people in this forum wear at least two hats. It's not just things like this that can cause problems. It is also a problem when discussing music.

For example, as a forum member I am entitled to say that I think a score is pretty dreadful, when discussing current film music. However, if the composer is a member of this forum, I get into trouble. Is that fair? No of course not, but it is very difficult for someone to be unemotional about something that they have written, and this is why I don't discuss music here. It's too easy to upset people, and they don't particularly care what I think anyway. :wink: 

D


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## Hannes_F (Dec 22, 2014)

Daryl, you are bringing it acutely to the point. Nearly everybody here is wearing more than one hat. The people running and moderating this forum are active composers, developers, journalists, instrumentalists. Same with the members. Nearly everybody has a business side of this, except of the pure amateurs.

I do think this is part of the magic here, as it provides quite some insights and depth. If at some point we want to clean every vested interest out then we need to employ some clerks who not even need to know much about music. But that will be a different forum.

Moderation-wise we try to keep our own interests out of the picture. Whoever has an own business interest in a field will keep out of threads of the competition.

That being said I hear you, Daryl. Since this is a public forum any critisism by a pro can fall back to his business. Sometimes that is sad but it is like it is.

For me the essence of the current problem is this: People are actively 'working' this forum in order to get business out of this. Some do this more, some do it less. Some do it openly, some do it hidden. But this is part of the overall picture and why we all meet here. We have dealers here, company delegates, sample library developers, software developers, orchestrators, consultants, online course providers, demo makers, and an army of composers. Many of them get the one or the other business out of this forum, in different shades of intensity. Where should we paint a line? How can we say we restrict the one and not the other? Especially if freedom of speach is a First Principle here?

Of course there are individuals that 'work the forum' so actively and so centered at their own interest that it gets annoying at some point. On the other hand we have some users that are a pain in the neck, too. Usually we let them both do their thing if it is not against the forum rules, even if privately we would prefer to do otherwise.


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## Daryl (Dec 22, 2014)

Agreed. Sorry for the OT

Now back to SPAT. A brilliant piece of kit.

D


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## macteacher (Dec 22, 2014)

Hi Guys,

First, thanks for the responses as well as getting things back on track.

As a relative newbie, (but not new to social networking, forums, etc), I say if lurkers are an issue in the past and it's hard to determine who's selling or who's working for commercial interests on this forum, I vote to just ban the discussion of pricing from discussion threads as many seem to object to it, especially folks that are here to share creative knowledge for free.

If someone wants to share a discovered price, let them PM about it or simply post a note in the commercial section.

If an issue comes up, one simple post by anyone saying "You may find pricing discussions and information in the Commercial Announcements forum, in order to keep this forum tidy and the responses to the OP direct, please share and discuss pricing only in the Commercial Announcements Forum." would cover it, especially if the policy is to post this without any reference to a certain vendor.

This will keep the discussion to the one at hand and, since there's a place to post this information and discuss it, free speech isn't inhibited.

In any case, with the new year coming up it would be a great time to specify policy!

Anyway....

I'd love to hear more about Alchemist as I just read some great info on it and watched a very interesting demo.

Also, how the other Flux products do on system resources as Hannes had mentioned some dramatic numbers with SPAT vs. VSS.

thanks!


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 22, 2014)

From my perspective inquiring about system resources can be a bit of a moving target depending upon the system itself and how the user deploys the plugins. 

To best manage resources many of we who compose but have to mix tend to use Vienna Ensemble PRO whether Mac or PC. Within VE Pro you can apply effects and/or setup an effects chain. Since I use Logic X I have one VE Pro per track and apply effects either within VE Pro and a combination of the Logic mixer. 

If you have an iLok key, you should just download a Flux demo and see for yourself.

You should be aware that many of their plugins can be applied for mono, stereo and surround. You should also be aware that they are deep products and that the manuals do not always give you the instruction, insight and application info you may be looking for. Speaking from experience.

As a disclaimer, I am a composer who has to mix. I produce library music and I create other works for live and recorded performances. My template is designed to achieve a specific aural end. I do not claim expert status for mixing as it's something I have to do, not something I enjoy at all. But I do relentlessly test to be assured of my results. And when I don't know or understand something, I pick up the phone and buy time from those who do so that I can keep my focus on the main thing.


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## macteacher (Dec 22, 2014)

Thanks for the thoughtful response Peter.

I am employing VEP so I'm happy that you mentioned that.

As mentioned much earlier in the thread, I have been demoing, but have been interested to hear from folks that have employed the tools for a while rather than just depending on my limited demoing.

I'm very interested in hearing about the tools were employed specifically to solve specific issues in a mix, blending libraries, or other situations where the tools were used to get out of a dark corner..


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 22, 2014)

Look for Pyramix as Flux comes with it, as I understand it, and high end Pro Tools circles.
http://www.merging.com/products/pyramix/new-features


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## macteacher (Dec 23, 2014)

What's the difference between Full Pack 2.1 AAX DSP and the Full Pack 2.1 (Native) if you don't have a dsp hardware processor and will be buying AAX?

I'm running Protools 10 soon to be running Protools 10 HD and later 11HD, (much later)..

this is a dongle based pro tools without the outboard processor.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 23, 2014)

macteacher @ Tue Dec 23 said:


> What's the difference between Full Pack 2.1 AAX DSP and the Full Pack 2.1 (Native) if you don't have a dsp hardware processor and will be buying AAX?
> 
> I'm running Protools 10 soon to be running Protools 10 HD and later 11HD, (much later)..
> 
> this is a dongle based pro tools without the outboard processor.



Full Pack 2.1 AAX DSP is Pro Tools only and you need to verify which version of Pro Tools it works with. All the dealers have this posted including us and the Ircam site.


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## macteacher (Dec 23, 2014)

Thanks, I have read the copy, but the confusion is that you can choose to buy an aax version of the Full Pack 2.1 AAX DSP as well as choosing to buy an aax version of the Full Pack 2.1 (Native) and there's a significant price difference between the two.

So if I'm going with AAX and don't need the dsp version, which to buy?

any differences between the two aax versions?


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 23, 2014)

Best web post for directly explaining AAX Native vs AAX DSP:
http://www.productiontrends.com/2013/10 ... -questions

If you're not sure, you should contact Pro Tools directly.


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## Popslaw (Dec 26, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Tue Dec 09 said:


> macteacher @ Wed Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm curious if the scripting of these parameters are available real time during playback and possibly be mapped to a midi controller.
> ...



I'm fiddling with SPAT for the first time, and for the life of me, I can't figure out how to control the automation or specific parameters of SPAT from within Cubase. I've found many helpful posts regarding SPAT on this forum (one referring to Logic's automap function as a means for finding the controller associated with a particular parameter), but I haven't been able to find one describing how to do this in Cubase. 

Is it possible to control the distance, azimuth, etc. (or the automation slider itself) using MIDI controllers within Cubase?

Thanks for your time, and patience with my elementary understanding of the tool.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 26, 2014)

I've been working with SPAT for 2 years. I strongly suggest you first learn how to work the program in stereo without automation to really grasp how it works and what you can really do with it. With a little familiarity, then try going for automation.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 27, 2014)

Popslaw @ Sat Dec 27 said:


> Is it possible to control the distance, azimuth, etc. (or the automation slider itself) using MIDI controllers within Cubase?



Yes, it is. Under the SpatV3 logo in the middle you find the activation of the automation (which means SPAT itself is listening to automation now and also reporting back to the DAW). Klick on it until the "automation" is blue.


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## Popslaw (Dec 27, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Sat Dec 27 said:


> Popslaw @ Sat Dec 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Is it possible to control the distance, azimuth, etc. (or the automation slider itself) using MIDI controllers within Cubase?
> ...



Thank you very much for your reply. 

I have found and activated the automation button, but I seem to have trouble getting Cubase to communicate anything to SPAT from an automation track. 

Here's where I am at this point. I have a single midi track open in Cubase, which is connected to one channel of one instance of VE Pro. I've added SPAT as an insert on the channel in VE Pro. I have enabled the "show automation" option for the track in Cubase, and I'm able to draw automation curves in the lane, but I'm not sure what the parameter should be set to. No matter what parameter I try, Cubase and SPAT don't seem to be communicating, in spite of the automation button being activated in SPAT.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 27, 2014)

Popslaw, when I can't figure out the midi automation of something then I set the DAW track to 'write' or 'touch' or 'latch' and wiggle the knob I want to automate. Usually then the DAW produces a new midi line by itself.


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## Popslaw (Dec 27, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Sat Dec 27 said:


> Popslaw, when I can't figure out the midi automation of something then I set the DAW track to 'write' or 'touch' or 'latch' and wiggle the knob I want to automate. Usually then the DAW produces a new midi line by itself.



Hannes, 

Thanks so much for your time. I still haven't been able to get Cubase to produce a new midi line, but I'm getting the feeling that it may be because I'm missing some bigger issue that is preventing it from working. I'll try to get to the bottom of whatever it is. 
In any case, I appreciate your help very much. 

Best regards,

Popslaw


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## marclawsonmusic (Dec 27, 2014)

Have you tried automation directly in Cubase (instead of in VEPro)? If it works inside of Cubase, you might have an issue with your VEPro configuration.


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## jamwerks (Dec 27, 2014)

Just finished integration of SPAT & Verb3 in my template. Extremely happy with the purchase. Running the close mic's of Adagitato through SPAT really puts in on a stage. With a little tweaking, got it to sound very close to Mural-Sable, reacting in a live hall. Night & day difference between just panning & verb. Also running through the same busses the close mic's of Symphonic Spheres (strings).

And even a better surprise was BBB lite through SPAT, breathtaking! 

Loving also Verb3. Sounds very expensive! Replaced most of my instances of Spaces.

$500 bucks well spent!


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## Popslaw (Dec 27, 2014)

marclawsonmusic @ Sat Dec 27 said:


> Have you tried automation directly in Cubase (instead of in VEPro)? If it works inside of Cubase, you might have an issue with your VEPro configuration.



Thank you for the suggestion. 

This may indeed be my issue. I'm actually unable to open Spat as an insert within Cubase. When I try to do so, an empty window appears with a "Spat" heading. When I get to the bottom of this problem, I imagine I may be able to solve the others. 

Thanks again!


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