# Infinite Brass and Dorico?



## ed buller (Dec 7, 2022)

HI

Has anybody had any luck with this, with regard to expression maps.

Best

ed


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## Woodie1972 (Dec 7, 2022)

I tried, but it doesn't work very well. For regular playback you don't need any keyswitches as the library will respond to all expressions and written note lengths and so on. Mutes in brass can be controlled by assigning the right CC value for what you want, but basically it doesn't sound very good because the libraries are designed for live playback and not for use in a notation program. With the new update for Dorico, it is closing the gap between notation and DAW even more, but libraries like these still don't fit very well.

Some time ago I contacted Aaron Venture with a similar question like yours and he told me he's thinking about a version which works for Dorico, more or less like Noteperformer. It won't be for the near future as he's working on other things like updates, but it does sound promising.


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## ed buller (Dec 7, 2022)

Woodie1972 said:


> I tried, but it doesn't work very well. For regular playback you don't need any keyswitches as the library will respond to all expressions and written note lengths and so on. Mutes in brass can be controlled by assigning the right CC value for what you want, but basically it doesn't sound very good because the libraries are designed for live playback and not for use in a notation program. With the new update for Dorico, it is closing the gap between notation and DAW even more, but libraries like these still don't fit very well.
> 
> Some time ago I contacted Aaron Venture with a similar question like yours and he told me he's thinking about a version which works for Dorico, more or less like Noteperformer. It won't be for the near future as he's working on other things like updates, but it does sound promising.


Thanks for your reply. Yes it seems to be not very stable. Triplets are but impossible . Another rash purchase, will I ever learn

best

e


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## swinkler (Dec 7, 2022)

Is that library similar then to spitfire’s performance patches? I didn’t know what those were and found it unusable in Dorico as well.


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## Woodie1972 (Dec 7, 2022)

swinkler said:


> Is that library similar then to spitfire’s performance patches? I didn’t know what those were and found it unusable in Dorico as well.


I don't know that library, so I can't comment on that. Maybe Ed knows?


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## Piotrek K. (Dec 8, 2022)

I did some tests and created expression map with Natural articulation which sets dynamics to cc1 + use velocity as secondary param (for attack part), and created add-ons like vibrato, non-vibrato which sets vibrato at fixed position (so the CC data is already drawn at very generic level). The rest of the playback is done via Dorico rules. So notation is sort of a sketching pad here with basic instructions and CC data already set and key editor serves as battle ground with stuff ready for tweaking.

IMO it may work with some additional tweaking but I didn't go in-depth with that (and trills playback suck and I can't do much about it as I'm on elements ).

Also you can try to use IB humanization to make it more alive without extra tweaks.


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## Markrs (Dec 8, 2022)

I got Infinite Brass and Woodwinds for the playability, but it would be a massive bonus if @aaronventure was looking at adding functionality to support the libraries working in Dorico, given they have a small footprint.


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## Ivan Duch (Dec 8, 2022)

I'm using it on Dorico and liking the results. I personally draw the midi data in with some help of an expression map. With 4.3, the midi editor got so good that it doesn't bother me at all.

In my template I have horns 1 to 6 being handled by IB and Horns a4 being handled by BBC or AROOF.

I find IB so versatile that I decided to pay the price of having to write some midi data in. My other brass libraries sound too stiff.

If Dorico adds some way to automatically draw cc curves and to be more specific with dynamics it would be easy to make an expression map for IB that handles it all.


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## ed buller (Dec 8, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> I'm using it on Dorico and liking the results. I personally draw the midi data in with some help of an expression map. With 4.3, the midi editor got so good that it doesn't bother me at all.
> 
> In my template I have horns 1 to 6 being handled by IB and Horns a4 being handled by BBC or AROOF.
> 
> I find IB so versatile that I decided to pay the price of having to write some midi data in. My other brass libraries sound too stiff.


Yes it seems it needs much more midi data than a score can supply. It's a shame as it sounds fantastic !....I will keep trying to get something to work

best

e


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## Ivan Duch (Dec 8, 2022)

ed buller said:


> Yes it seems it needs much more midi data than a score can supply. It's a shame as it sounds fantastic !....I will keep trying to get something to work
> 
> best
> 
> e



Yes, it needs more CC1 and velocity data to sound human. But with some additions and improvements to Dorico expression maps in future versions I think it could work.

I wonder what Noteperformer 4 will bring to the table.


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## aaronventure (Dec 8, 2022)

Markrs said:


> but it would be a massive bonus if @aaronventure was looking at adding functionality to support the libraries working in Dorico, given they have a small footprint.


He is.


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## swinkler (Dec 8, 2022)

Yeah I just checked out some demos and they do sound fantastic. Wish I would have learned about it before making another purchase. I appreciate the fact that this library sounds good with more classical sounding examples as well as epic style examples. Seems to hit that sweet spot w/regard to styles I compose anyway.
EDIT: Not to mention the mutes you include. I bet not everyone appreciates this detail in the library but is certainly unique.


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## ed buller (Dec 8, 2022)

aaronventure said:


> He is.


That's great news. I have to say after spending the day playing with this in Dorico I am much happier, and now very glad I bought it. The dynamics are astounding and having six independent Horns play in unison really does sound enormous. 

Best

e


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## mducharme (Dec 8, 2022)

aaronventure said:


> He is.


This would give me a good reason to invest in your Infinite series, which I have avoided up until now as I already have the somewhat similar Sample Modeling brass.


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## swinkler (Dec 15, 2022)

I'm curious if anyone has done any more testing with this lib in Dorico? I bought the bundle recently and am just now starting to play with it. I have to say I love the sound of it but do see the need for tons of "overdubbing" of CC1 at least in Dorico, if not vibrato as well. I'm not sure how to handle the varied note length though and still have the score look the way it should. And I'm still not 100% clear on the way note velocity interacts with CC1. 
Just curious if anyone had an epiphone?


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## Ivan Duch (Dec 15, 2022)

swinkler said:


> I'm curious if anyone has done any more testing with this lib in Dorico? I bought the bundle recently and am just now starting to play with it. I have to say I love the sound of it but do see the need for tons of "overdubbing" of CC1 at least in Dorico, if not vibrato as well. I'm not sure how to handle the varied note length though and still have the score look the way it should. And I'm still not 100% clear on the way note velocity interacts with CC1.
> Just curious if anyone had an epiphone?


I'd forget about creating a good expression map for it and go for either recording live or inputting notes and playing around with the key editor afterward. Dorico key editor is now very good after version 4.3 so it's very capable of programming Infinite Brass. The midi recording is also good, you just have to deal with the note quantization (if needed).


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## swinkler (Dec 15, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> I'd forget about creating a good expression map for it and go for either recording live or inputting notes and playing around with the key editor afterward. Dorico key editor is now very good after version 4.3 so it's very capable of programming Infinite Brass. The midi recording is also good, you just have to deal with the note quantization (if needed).


You know I came to that same conclusion about 1 hour ago. I entered some notes with some dynamics and articulations, played it and it sounded decent. I then added someone's expression map and it actually sounded worse. Then I reverted, recorded some CC1 curves and at least for that short passage it sounded much better. 
I guess what I'm encouraged about with this experiment is I got some favorable results going through some of the same motions as a DAW but didn't have to hassle with a DAW if that makes sense. But when it comes to tweaking note velocity I'm not sure there's an efficient way to handle that in Dorico at this time .


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## Ivan Duch (Dec 15, 2022)

I find the velocity editor very good myself. What problems are you having with it? I guess it also depends on what DAW are you used to.


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## swinkler (Dec 15, 2022)

No problem really, just trying to avoid a very tedious exercise. I doubt it's avoidable though and that's ok. I think some have brought up the efficient tools different DAWs offer to save a few seconds here or there.


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## Nando Florestan (Dec 15, 2022)

About "the way velocity interacts with CC1": Velocity determines the attack intensity of a new phrase (or isolated note), and then the intensity goes to the amount given by CC1 (in less than a second).

Therefore, to make staccato notes, keep CC1 low and velocity determines the dynamics. But if you want a slow/soft attack on a longer note, do the opposite: velocity lower than the number where CC1 is.

When you play legato, for the second note onwards, velocity determines the speed of the legato transition, since there is no attack to be configured.

It's pretty clear to me... Zero doubts on how it works. By the way, I also have had great results in Dorico, but one's gotta understand the library needs to be musically played -- music notation lacks information to make it happen.

Working in Dorico is currently the best way: keep all your music in a single program, you can always work on the arrangement or composition since there's sheet music in front of you, and at the same time you are working on a performance, without needing to drop to low-level, ugly, smelly piano rolls that are so difficult to read and work with when arranging.


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## swinkler (Dec 15, 2022)

Nando Florestan said:


> About "the way velocity interacts with CC1": Velocity determines the attack intensity of a new phrase (or isolated note), and then the intensity goes to the amount given by CC1 (in less than a second).
> 
> Therefore, to make staccato notes, keep CC1 low and velocity determines the dynamics. But if you want a slow/soft attack on a longer note, do the opposite: velocity lower than the number where CC1 is.
> 
> ...


Thank you. That makes sense and yes I agree I’d rather stay in one program.


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## swinkler (Dec 19, 2022)

Ok here's my experiment with these fantastic libraries. This excerpt is from Adoration of the Magi from Three Boticelli Paintings by Respighi. This is the beginning up until the 'B' section that includes celeste, piano and percussion. I wanted to keep it short and small enough forces. This section is strings, flute, oboe, clarinet, basson and horn (1 note). So I've used IW for the woods and IB for the horn. For strings my best choice was VSL Chamber Synchronized SE strings. I don't currently have a good way to 'glue' the libraries together because VEPro doesn't support VST3 yet. So the winds are using the Mozart hall and the strings are using MIR3D with the synchron hall. So that's the backstory:

First Noteperformer as a baseline:

View attachment maggi resphigi - noteperformer.mp3


Second the libraries mentioned above without any tweaking:
View attachment maggi reshpigi - IW raw.mp3


Then lastly the setup above but recording CC1 for all parts. I only tweaked a few velocities for the clarinet. I also recorded CC8 for the strings (timbre contol). I did have to play with the overall balance between VEPro (strings) and Kontakt (winds) and it's still not quite right in a couple spots but again that should be rectifed once I can host everything in VEPro. 

View attachment maggi resphigi IW edited.mp3



For this piece and style I was surprised how little I had to mess with the Infinite libs. I did mark everything in the score as it appeared in the original with the exception of a few spots where longer phrases are marked and you have slurs under phrase markings. Dorico seems to interpret these by cancelling the slur once another slur has occurred so I did have to break up some phrases into shorter slurred passages. I honestly had to do the most CC massaging to the strings but I am pleased how well these libraries blend. I'd hoped to use some of my recent spitfire strings but they don't work as well imo. Oh and for expression maps I just used 'Velocity + MOD Wheel' for the Infinite libs. I think that's it. I'd be interested in opinions or if this spurs any other thoughts regarding more realistic mockups in Dorico. 

Steve


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## Nando Florestan (Dec 21, 2022)

@swinkler I like your mockup, you have taken care of the basics well. Here's things I would question:

- Low strings seem to be too isolated on the right. Perhaps check with a reference recording you'd like. I would probably bring them closer to the center. (I heard the mockups on DT-770s.)
- Maybe record also just a bit of vibrato depth CC where woods are featured. In my experience the vibrato speed CC is best left in the vicinity of 64, but vibrato depth can vary. (Don't add vibrato to clarinets, of course.)


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## swinkler (Dec 21, 2022)

Nando Florestan said:


> @swinkler I like your mockup, you have taken care of the basics well. Here's things I would question:
> 
> - Low strings seem to be too isolated on the right. Perhaps check with a reference recording you'd like. I would probably bring them closer to the center. (I heard the mockups on DT-770s.)
> - Maybe record also just a bit of vibrato depth CC where woods are featured. In my experience the vibrato speed CC is best left in the vicinity of 64, but vibrato depth can vary. (Don't add vibrato to clarinets, of course.)


thank you for the feedback. I did get my nanokontrol setup yesterday and I set up a slider for vibrato speed but maybe I'll change it to depth instead?


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## Nando Florestan (Dec 21, 2022)

Automating vibrato depth is more important than automating vibrato speed, but you can do both.


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## swinkler (Dec 21, 2022)

Nando Florestan said:


> Automating vibrato depth is more important than automating vibrato speed, but you can do both.


Got it. Thanks again. 

I'm finding on more articulate pieces the attack time is very important as well. I've got my nanokontrol set up for several of these controllers and find recording CC data in Dorico pretty painless. It does get a little squirrelly recording CC1 over existing CC1 data but otherwise pretty straightforward.


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## swinkler (Dec 23, 2022)

One more question. Although I'm not pursing very robust Xmaps for these libraries I would like to create a basic one to cover mutes. But for some reason I can't seem to make it work. I can get one mute change to say straight mute, but open doesn't work or any other mutes (cup, harmon, etc). I've tried different combinations of Init, Natural, with and without those but nothing seems to work. I also created a manual exclusion group with just the mute articulations but that didn't work either (although I'm not sure I completely understand exclusion groups). 

Has anyone else successfully created Xmaps for mutes? Again I don't care as much about dynamics and such because I'm resigned to record CC1, vibrato, attack time as well as editing velocities. 

Thanks,
Steve


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## Woodie1972 (Dec 24, 2022)

swinkler said:


> One more question. Although I'm not pursing very robust Xmaps for these libraries I would like to create a basic one to cover mutes. But for some reason I can't seem to make it work. I can get one mute change to say straight mute, but open doesn't work or any other mutes (cup, harmon, etc). I've tried different combinations of Init, Natural, with and without those but nothing seems to work. I also created a manual exclusion group with just the mute articulations but that didn't work either (although I'm not sure I completely understand exclusion groups).
> 
> Has anyone else successfully created Xmaps for mutes? Again I don't care as much about dynamics and such because I'm resigned to record CC1, vibrato, attack time as well as editing velocities.
> 
> ...


Hmm, it should work if you set the natural expression to 0 for the CC that controls the mutes (CC26?). Maybe add a keyswitch to that and set it to C-1 or something that doesn't result in a note to sound.


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## swinkler (Dec 24, 2022)

Woodie1972 said:


> Hmm, it should work if you set the natural expression to 0 for the CC that controls the mutes (CC26?). Maybe add a keyswitch to that and set it to C-1 or something that doesn't result in a note to sound.


No bueno. Something else that's odd is it's 'stuck' on straight mute to the point that if I try to draw in a zero value for that CC, the playing technique actually overrides my edits. There is no straight mute in the score any longer btw.


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## swinkler (Dec 27, 2022)

Maybe I was overcomplicating things but I got a set of Xmaps that work now. All of the mutes included in the library are covered as well as just 'muted' which defaults to straight mute and I added a playback technique for 'con sordino' which also defaults to straight mute. 
There's a technique for open and senza sord. as well. It's quirky but with open you have to choose opentext in the playback technique popover. Otherwise they seem to work as expected.


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## swinkler (Dec 31, 2022)

Anyone know how to program falls like in this example?


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