# Why So Many Musicians Are Quitting the Business



## Peter Alexander (Jul 30, 2013)

From the Guardian in the UK - FYI
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2006/f ... iew=mobile


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## impressions (Jul 30, 2013)

I haven't read thoroughly as to the reasons that created this, but it sounds as though the VI has beat the players. like factories beat working hands.

that's progress, with bad and the good.
What can you do...?


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## Hannes_F (Jul 30, 2013)

That article has nothing to do with virtual instruments. VI's don't play on a concert stage.

(Yes there are VI based productions where pit orchestra musicians are replaced but we are talking about symphony here. And yes, studio musicians go out of business because of VIs, but that affects only a minority of orchestras).

The real problem here is that classical orchestras somehow lost much of their audience on the way because of either putting themselves into a museum or being so avant-garde that it hurts. It breaks my heart since 30 years to watch this.

What we would need to overcome that is - probably - new concert music that is as great on the ears and mood as pop/rock music but has the depth of classical/romantical/modern concert music - a limbo not easy to pull off. And no, I am not speaking of adding a drumset, bass and synth to an orchestra and playing pop songs. I mean a really new type of music.

Orchestras need composers - they need *you guys here* - for writing fresh music for them that sounds great, is deep while entertaining and not overly complicated (which needs knowledge of the actual instruments), goes wide distances for the concert format, is lovefully crafted in all details and comes from mature souls that can touch others.

If samples can somehow help to achieve this then I'm all for technology.


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## jaredcowing (Jul 30, 2013)

This article is specific to the UK, where orchestral musician salaries appear to be lower. But, we all know that orchestras in the US are hurting as well from shrinking audiences. LA musicians are also feeling the pinch with so many of the scoring sessions going to places like... London. Last I heard the scoring industry was booming there... I'm curious how the London players are feeling about the state of their industry.

Most of the reasons they listed are problems that have been around for quite some time (politics, pressure to be perfect, bad hours) but it could be that the salary issue is worse than it's been in the past...

To respond to Impressions, I don't think VI libraries are anywhere near the level they need to be to be considered a replacement for live players- there's just no comparison. Even if they got to that level, libraries still need live players to get their samples from... and without live players promoting orchestral music, there won't be an appreciation or demand for the instruments that our VI libraries reproduce... in a universe where there were almost no more orchestras left, I could see audiences complaining about the use of orchestral instruments in film/game music... it'd sound too strange and "old." That's not to say live musicians shouldn't worry about gigs disappearing... that's just to say that if we start considering VI libraries as an improvement on- rather than a simulation of- the real thing, we're really hurting ourselves in the long run.


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## impressions (Jul 30, 2013)

jaredcowing @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> To respond to Impressions, I don't think VI libraries are anywhere near the level they need to be to be considered a replacement for live players- there's just no comparison. Even if they got to that level, libraries still need live players to get their samples from... and without live players promoting orchestral music, there won't be an appreciation or demand for the instruments that our VI libraries reproduce... in a universe where there were almost no more orchestras left, I could see audiences complaining about the use of orchestral instruments in film/game music... it'd sound too strange and "old." That's not to say live musicians shouldn't worry about gigs disappearing... that's just to say that if we start considering VI libraries as an improvement on- rather than a simulation of- the real thing, we're really hurting ourselves in the long run.



look, the facts are there. before the age of VI, you needed to hire an orchestra to do a good soundtrack for you. today, people can't tell the difference. otherwise you wouldn't have tons of movies being done in micro budgets and composed and performed totally on VI.
you can even bring it to the front if the composer is clever enough to use the right patches. with trailer music, tons of VI is used. 
one huge example are the black and white cartoons, which now i think 100% of cartoon music is made by VI.

I know people who still get royalties because of the orchestration they did to old radio tunes and songs that used live orchestra. 
It's somewhat unrelated to the subject of the OP though. that problem has been manifesting for years. the newer generation(which i belong to also) are the ones "supposed" to listen to the classical music, but actually rather spend their money on these:

and they are quotes from friends in my generation,
Ska punk festivals, rock festivals, indie festivals, metal bands etc.
I got to classical and jazz just because I am a musician, but the "normal" people don't have that tendency. You can even listen to some of the tracks in VI forum and know which ones are influenced by classical, or electronic. which one is faking it, and which ones are actually manouvering freely in the classical genre.
I will say even worse, you're not a cool guy if you're going to a classical concert. it's like you're a putz who only listens to intelligent music that only snobs and people "that know shit" can get, while the other "lower people" can't.
so alot of "normal" people might think that, which is stupid, but they do.


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## jaredcowing (Jul 30, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> The real problem here is that classical orchestras somehow lost much of their audience on the way because of either putting themselves into a museum or being so avant-garde that it hurts. It breaks my heart since 30 years to watch this.



+1 !! I think, with the state of much of pop music today, there's a huge vacuum for rich, complex, layered, immersive and original music that's still accessible and enjoyable for the casual listener. Film/video game music really can help fill that void- I know many "art" composers look down on the industry as "selling out," and it's true that you're not as likely to get a score that'll endure the test of time from a movie about robots fighting aliens, but there are also so many gems that have come out of the industry. It seems to me like there's a whole lot that many struggling orchestras could do to become more visible to younger generations.

Back to Impressions, I agree that younger people don't think of going to the symphony. When I mention to people my age that I listen to classical, they think I'm stuffy, or trying to tell them that I'm better than they are. I think if I was older they wouldn't find it as strange... This has to change- orchestras really need to find a way to bring in new audiences (they still need to play Beethoven and Brahms, but it doesn't have to be every concert).
The only exceptions I know of are student orchestras where players' friends will come and listen, and end up really liking the music.


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## Hannes_F (Jul 30, 2013)

impressions @ Wed Jul 31 said:


> but actually rather spend their money on these:
> Ska punk festivals, rock festivals, indie festivals, metal bands etc.
> ...
> I will say even worse, you're not a cool guy if you're going to a classical concert. it's like you're a putz who only listens to intelligent music that only snobs and people "that know [email protected]#t" can get, while the other "lower people" can't.
> so alot of "normal" people might think that, which is stupid, but they do.



That is what I say orchestras have lost their audience ... if you consider that before 1890 the so called "classical/romantical" music had a share of nearly 100% or so (today in the 1% area).

I honestly think the main reason for the situation today is that historically the intellectuals of Europe/America did not absorb the vitality and impact of african music in that time (around 1900). They were so convinced of being culturally superior that they did not recognize its beauty and possible influence.

If they would have embraced african rhythm at that time then orchestra and "classical" music would be much different today. Since they refused it this most vital life-stream went into Jazz and from there into Rock and Pop. Some of it comes back now to orchestra music via film music (which also brings back the synths that were a second missed chance). We'll see.


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## Arbee (Jul 30, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Wed Jul 31 said:


> The real problem here is that classical orchestras somehow lost much of their audience on the way because of either putting themselves into a museum or being so avant-garde that it hurts. It breaks my heart since 30 years to watch this.
> 
> What we would need to overcome that is - probably - new concert music that is as great on the ears and mood as pop/rock music but has the depth of classical/romantical/modern concert music - a limbo not easy to pull off. And no, I am not speaking of adding a drumset, bass and synth to an orchestra and playing pop songs. I mean a really new type of music.
> 
> ...


Hannes, you have just articulated the one and only reason I have been seduced back to music and am so feverishly trying to get my home studio completed and my skills back into shape after many years away from it. Not to say for one moment that I will succeed, but music so desperately needs exactly what you have said here so well. I was fortunate to have some modest success in about 1990 (signed with a major label and some pop radio/TV exposure) with an instrumental fusion/chamber group project at the time. Young children and finances, plus a shrinking music industry, led me shortly thereafter to a career change into systems development. That change was very successful but now I'm straining at the leash to complete some unfinished business with the incredible technology that is now available and at such modest cost. As you say, this is a really tough challenge and not easy to pull off. I think I need to pin your words on my studio wall for daily inspiration o/~ 

.


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## impressions (Jul 30, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> impressions @ Wed Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> > I honestly think the main reason for the situation today is that historically the intellectuals of Europe/America did not absorb the vitality and impact of african music in that time. They were so convinced of being culturally superior that they did not recognize its beauty and possible influence. If they would have embraced it at that time then orchestra and "classical" music would be much different today. Since they refused it this most vital life-stream went into Jazz and from there into Rock and Pop. Some of it comes back now to orchestra music via film music. We'll see.



hah, nice thought hannes. its as if the more modern classical was influenced(to african for example) prior to rock/jazz etc the music would be more evolved toward the classical genre with these influences?

its an interesting thought that might have happened on a parallel universe.

also it's not entirely correct, stravinsky and a lot of modern classical composer of the 20th century have composed music that utilize a unique percussive manner, and colors of harmony which are more fitting to jazz and soul.
I think frank zappa could name a few much better than me(or anyone else who knows more modern classical).

what I wanted to say which i forgot, that its easier to identify with lyrics. and I'm not referring to opera. you got something simple of chords, you got a nice atmosphere and lyrics that can hold that feeling. a song, and a short one. there are so many things in classical music that just banish you with a stick-they are sooo long(compared to today's limited songs) they are usually incredible complex. and they also have huge depth and heavy air of a time far away, not a very pop sound to orchestra. maybe the ABBA stuff but not those counter point and fantastic orchestration with brass and woodwinds.
its just too damn hard to listen to unless you have to, for the regular ear. I think HZ however he may be disputed among some composers, managed to find a really great connection between today's music and classical music. 

so you save the hardcore stuff for archeology. also that exists in jazz, the be-bop stuff was never as pleasent to the ear as 30's-40's jazz, and the post be bop era was also more complex than before, so also not exactly pop music. so who listened to that music in that time? fewer and fewer apparently.


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## rgames (Jul 30, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> If they would have embraced african rhythm at that time then orchestra and "classical" music would be much different today. Since they refused it this most vital life-stream went into Jazz and from there into Rock and Pop.


Not so sure about that - here in the states, Gershwin, Bernstein, and even Copland (kind-of) incorporated a lot of jazz elements. And they were pretty darn popular.

The problem is that music has been over-intellectualized (if that's even a word). Music isn't supposed to be thought-provoking, it's supposed to be emotion-provoking. When composers quit trying to stir emotions with music, audiences quit listening. I blame the Second Viennese School 

So here we are. We have more composers with more education than at any time in musical history and fewer people listening to their music. Classical music has moved out of the concert halls and into the halls of academia. For the academics, it's almost a badge of honor to perplex people with "art" music.

This leads to an interesting point that not many people think about: these academic musicians in the US are, in fact, publicly funded: their livelihood comes from government loans for their students' education (many of whom won't be able to pay them back). They're certainly not making a living from their music... There was recently a huge outcry because student loan rates were increased in the US. I say raise them more - reduce the number of people getting degrees so we can kill this vicious cycle before it becomes the next real-estate bubble (yes, kind of OT, but the music schools and academic composers are part of that problem).

rgames


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## Arbee (Jul 30, 2013)

Love it or hate it, I believe this is encouraging....

BBC Philharmonic - Nero's Dubstep Symphony 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JAxgFe4hpE

.


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## dinerdog (Jul 30, 2013)

I heard an NPR story here in the states about the classical orchestra dilemma, and part of what they blamed it on was the continuing shorter attention spans of our society in general. They said that less and less people are willing to spend an entire (and expensive) evening devoted to doing only one thing. I think a lot of people actually get squirmy at the thought of sitting through a long concert without being able to use their phones or any number of other things. This is just one contributing factor.

It's almost like an "express concert" would be enough of an experience in this ADD culture. I'm certainly not saying it's right (and won't debate it), but I do think it's a fact of life today unless you were raised very differently. Sad, but true.


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## Arbee (Jul 30, 2013)

dinerdog @ Wed Jul 31 said:


> I heard an NPR story here in the states about the classical orchestra dilemma, and part of what they blamed it on was the continuing shorter attention spans of our society in general. They said that less and less people are willing to spend an entire (and expensive) evening devoted to doing only one thing. I think a lot of people actually get squirmy at the thought of sitting through a long concert without being able to use their phones or any number of other things. This is just one contributing factor.
> 
> It's almost like an "express concert" would be enough of an experience in this ADD culture. I'm certainly not saying it's right (and won't debate it), but I do think it's a fact of life today unless you were raised very differently. Sad, but true.


Correct on all counts - 200 years ago you couldn't listen to your "tunes" in the car on the way to a concert, it was special and the only opportunity most people would get to hear quality music. Not even able to text someone in the middle of the concert back then! Too many distractions and short attention span these days, no-one has the patience (me included) to sit through a long intro waiting to get the good part. I don't believe it's any accident that 3 minutes is the length of a pop song....


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## Scrianinoff (Jul 30, 2013)

Still, http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... 09#3686509

Just keep in mind that the current demise of a lot of 'Art' institutions is for a (big) part an effect of the current long-winded recession (in Europe). 

Over a longer time span it also proves that the most prominent effects of subsidizing art are that it makes its creators corrupt, decadent, and disconnected with its primary focus group. 

During the past few decades we had a system for subsidizing the art of painting in trying to revive the time of the 'Dutch remasters' like Rembrandt, Vermeer, Van Gogh etc. The subsidized 'artists' either handed in their worst works in times when they were short on money, or created some concept art, without even a hint of technique or pointers for people other than themselves to relate to the work. Corrupt, decadent and disconnected. Still, at least one of those works I remember vividly: a painting of some brown smears on a gray background. The description was that it portrayed what dog shit looks like on asphalt when bicycles went over it. Corrupt, decadent, disconnected and downright crazy.


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## rayinstirling (Jul 31, 2013)

I would ask the question of the active membership here, who actually has experience of performing professionally?
Is it not the case that regardless of ones prime employment (unless earning a fortune as a STAR) moonlighting bolsters income. In fact I know of one musician who while playing in some of the most well known big bands in London through the second half of the 20th century also worked in many smaller ensembles and did session work signing himself as Charlie Parker for tax purposes.
I've said this before, apart from few exceptions gigging used to sell professionally produced recordings. Now where recording is relatively inexpensive, the result sells gigs.
No money in gigging? No REAL job? please return to the servants quarters.


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## Daryl (Jul 31, 2013)

This whole topic is a very complicated one. However to think that the demise of the recording sector has nothing to do with it is naive, to say the least.

To my mind there are two separate issues; the first is getting people to go to concerts again. This can be improved, but in the end it is pretty much a lost cause. Unless the whole make-up of Western society changes, I don't see much of an improvement. In the UK it must also be remembered that we have way more orchestras than we ought to, when you consider the size of the population. Whilst this theoretically means more choice, the actuality is that there is a lot of duplication of repertoire, which in the end equates in my mind to less choice than first appears. The only real solution is to do more of what is already being done. Get children used to going to concerts, so that there is a chance that they might carry this on into adult life.

The second issue is why there are too many players with too little work. Obviously the Music Colleges are churning out far more players than we, as a country, need, but short of cutting the number of places, and stopping people having the chance to be a professional player, I don't think that there is much to be done about this. However, although it may appear unrelated to orchestral work, the use of VI has not only decimated the recording industry, but also the professional musicians have been put out of work. It is naive to think that there is not a correlation. After all, the orchestral session players all started off with full time jobs in professional orchestras. What used to happen was the people would, once they had established themselves, sometimes move over into sessions playing, therefore freeing up a job for a newer younger player to take. That doesn't happen any more. The West End used to be a good source of income, but that sector has shrunk, due to the use of synths and samples, instead of hiring more players. However, that genie is out of the bottle, so players have to find a way to survive.

Looking at it dispassionately, there is still possible recording work in the UK, but a lot of it is going abroad. This is because it is too expensive and usage is too restrictive. Obviously for a high budget movie there is no problem, but at the lower budget level there is no way that people are going to pay the MU levels of pay. I understand that everyone wants to earn a lot of money, but let's look at the figures:

In the example quoted in the article, a rank and file Violinist was said to earn £25,000 a year. So over a 47 week year, working 5 days a week that comes out at £106.38 per day (before tax and NI). A day would normally be either two rehearsals or a rehearsal and a concert, so it's similar to a two session day. The cheapest sessions are for Classical CDs and a two session day costs £142. Already this is hugely better paid than performing live. OK, so the argument is made that the CD is cutting down audience figures (I don't agree, but let's just accept this for now). So what about recording for TV or library music? Well I think library (with certain exclusions to usages) is around £123 per session (or £246 per day) and TV is around £168 per session (or £336 per day). Look at the disparity of figures. the same players working the same hours.

Now in Eastern Europe a two session day is roughly £106 (depending on exchange rate), so it is about the same as a rehearsal concert in the UK. Therefore, even with only a 20% mark-up on their normal fees, they could probably claw back a lot of the work that has gone to Eastern Europe. Just not at the fees that traditionally would have been paid in the past.

Now some people would call this a race to the bottom, but remember we are talking about survival in the industry. There is absolutely no reason that every musician has to be paid a minimum of £40 per hour, just because it comes under the heading of media recording. However, that is the current view. If this doesn't change, then in time there will be even less recording in the UK, which puts pressure on the orchestral jobs which means a smaller profession.

D


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## germancomponist (Jul 31, 2013)

dinerdog @ Wed Jul 31 said:


> I heard an NPR story here in the states about the classical orchestra dilemma, and part of what they blamed it on was the continuing shorter attention spans of our society in general. They said that less and less people are willing to spend an entire (and expensive) evening devoted to doing only one thing. I think a lot of people actually get squirmy at the thought of sitting through a long concert without being able to use their phones or any number of other things. This is just one contributing factor.
> 
> It's almost like an "express concert" would be enough of an experience in this ADD culture. I'm certainly not saying it's right (and won't debate it), but I do think it's a fact of life today unless you were raised very differently. Sad, but true.



+1


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## germancomponist (Jul 31, 2013)

Daryl @ Wed Jul 31 said:


> This whole topic is a very complicated one. However to think that the demise of the recording sector has nothing to do with it is naive, to say the least. .....
> 
> Now some people would call this a race to the bottom, but remember we are talking about survival in the industry. There is absolutely no reason that every musician has to be paid a minimum of £40 per hour, just because it comes under the heading of media recording. However, that is the current view. If this doesn't change, then in time there will be even less recording in the UK, which puts pressure on the orchestral jobs which means a smaller profession.
> 
> D



+1

A wide field I would say. And sad! Where we are in 20 years?


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## Ganvai (Jul 31, 2013)

I think also a Problem is that it's really hard to get any infos about classic concerts in modern media.

I really love live concerts and it was such a lucky coincidence that my girlfriend found out that Tan Dun was giving a live show with the MDR-Orchestra in Leipzig. 

We had to drive 7 hours to see this but we did it cause it was such an amazing chance. Seeing Tan Dun live conducting a good orchestra.

But this was really a happy coincidence that we saw that!

Yeah, there are some magazins maybe about this, but there is no real internet community about this, although a lot of young people like soundtracks and classical music. 

I don't think that this music is diyng because young people don't like it. I think it's more a problem of the presence of these events especially in the medium used by the younger generation.

And to be honest, this might be a problem of the people in this scene that like their small, privileged society and want to keep it like that.


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## Arbee (Jul 31, 2013)

I don't really think it is too complicated to be honest. If live concerts provide something extra that listening at home or watching clips doesn't do, then the value proposition is there for people to go (note: Pink just sold out 18 live shows in Melbourne alone, that's 200,000+ people from a population of 4 million :shock: ). Most of the time, music sounds better at home minus the parking hassles and you can see more thanks to the multiple cameras. Tbh, I don't think the argument is much different from the retail shop demise - give people a reason to visit the shop instead of buying online and they will come.

And yes, I made my living totally from music for 15 years (and at times a very good living), much of it performing live - but - that was 15 years ago when the music industry was not yet this far down the slippery slope, although it had certainly begun even then.

.


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## MA-Simon (Jul 31, 2013)

Years ago I went to a big classical concert, they played Holst, the Planets & some experimental strings-sound-like-digital-instruments stuff. 
I was working as an artist at a german creative agency back then, when I told my chef that I'll be going to a concert this weekend, he asked which singer / band was in town. I answered, Mannheimer Philharmoniker. 
He was just staring at my like: (o) 

Honnestly I would love to go to more concerts but they never, _never_ play the stuff I like. There are almost no Video Game concerts in Germany.
(Maybe in Berlin but that is way of from my place)
These concerts are always sold out months in advance. Yet there are non of these here.
There are millions of gamers out there. This sucks. 

But I honestly can't see myself shelling out 70€ for a 2h concert of any type.


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## impressions (Jul 31, 2013)

MA-Simon @ Wed Jul 31 said:


> He was just staring at my like: (o)



+1000.


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## Andrew Aversa (Aug 1, 2013)

Frankly I think video game music concerts are an excellent entry point for many, many people. Have any of you attended a concert like Video Games Live (which is really more like a rock/pop concert in many ways!), Distant Worlds, Play, Symphony of the Goddesses, etc.? My wife is currently touring with VGL and the enthusiasm of the crowd is unbelievable, no matter where they go - even in other countries.


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## Waywyn (Aug 1, 2013)

As tough as it sounds, but take the evolutionary point of view and see each instrument/musicians group as a living being. An orchestra is like a big human being which needs like 5000 calories a day and is approximately able to walk 3-5km/h.
It simply can't survive on the "long run" ...

Sadly, in a few years we will have just a few well hired orchestras


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## nikolas (Aug 1, 2013)

I don't know about you guys, but I compose for computer games, I compose classical music, I perform, I teach and I publish. I work something like 14 hours a day...

An orchestral performer should do other things rather than just rehears and study for 8 hours a day... :-/ Then the amounts mentioned in the article would mean that they're only part of the income.

Plus the orchestras and generally classical music , needs to change its habits! The idea that sponsors will always be around to help the orchestras go by is gone! There's no more money for the arts this way! It has to be a different way!


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## impressions (Aug 1, 2013)

nikolas @ Thu Aug 01 said:


> I don't know about you guys, but I compose for computer games, I compose classical music, I perform, I teach and I publish. I work something like 14 hours a day...
> 
> An orchestral performer should do other things rather than just rehears and study for 8 hours a day... :-/ Then the amounts mentioned in the article would mean that they're only part of the income.
> 
> Plus the orchestras and generally classical music , needs to change its habits! The idea that sponsors will always be around to help the orchestras go by is gone! There's no more money for the arts this way! It has to be a different way!



I'm not sure you'll be the same performer if you'd do all that. 
to be a proper professional performer you need to be extremely dedicated to training. meaning, you do skill exercises, re-learn repertuar, do lots of gigs and essentially be the soul of the music you read or that you've been commissioned to perform.

I know for a fact I'm much less of a guitar player I used to be when I was in the jazz scene, because i have much less time to practice. on the other hand I see friends who have a career as performers and that's all they do, including practicing all day, everyday.


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## Musicologo (Aug 1, 2013)

The "problem" is social, not musical. Any music can be good depending on context or audience cultural background. Now, in our society, in our time, in our context, simply there is a supply and demand for a certain kind of works. And to try to change that scope you have a social problem in hands. Music serves a certain purpose, it is attached to certain functions in our lives. 

It is like food: is there a market for fois gras? It is even ethical to "produce" and eat fois gras these days?...What is the function of that ingredient in most people lives? Or steak? Or beans? Or lentils?... Think about all that, all the possible roles, functions, how they are distributed...

It is all part of a big network and a series of vicious cycles where certain products are more appealing and suitable for certain contexts, and also marketed and made available to those contexts.

The context of orchestral music was more popular in times where there wasn't mechanical music around nor other forms of entertainment and where probably it made sense to go to a place and be there for hours...

If you go to bayreuth, even today, you have a sold out place for 10 years. So there is a social context for a certain kind of music and audience. And that is sustainable by itself.

If you go to the rural arkansas the same product probably wouldn't stand. But in that same area other kinds of musical products (country music?) are sustainable and local artists probably do very well. 

In the end: is it wiser to suit yourself to the context and adapt yourself (therefore creating products people want) or try to change the context/create a new one (therefore creating new audiences for the product you want to sell)?


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## Peter Alexander (Aug 3, 2013)

From Today's L.A. Times:
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/mo ... 388.column


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## Daryl (Aug 3, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Sat Aug 03 said:


> From Today's L.A. Times:
> http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/mo ... 388.column


That article doesn't seem totally accurate to me. If the LA musicians earn $550 a day for recording, there would be no reason to come to London. AFAIK the London rate is around $530 a day for a low budget movie. For all the higher rate movies (which is anything over about £17million, I think) it is nearer $920 a day. Why would any movie score be recorded in London with that disparity? Surely the residuals don't make that much of a difference?

I also have to point out that all those workers on minimum wage are not going to have much sympathy for those "poor" musicians who only get paid $90 per hour though. :wink: 

D


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## Peter Alexander (Aug 3, 2013)

It's not the hourly, it's the residuals.


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## Daryl (Aug 4, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Sun Aug 04 said:


> It's not the hourly, it's the residuals.


Ah I see. Well, those are not going to last for much longer, as they fly in the face of every other profession that operates on a work for hire basis. Logically I could even see the composers' royalties going the same way, except that lower budget production companies would then have to pay proper fees, so I doubt that they would be very supportive. :wink: 

D


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 4, 2013)

Interesting thread. Here a few thoughts in random order:

- I can't stand when the word 'product' is used to refer to music, as it cheapens the art.

- 90% of contemporary classical is crap. But then again, so is 90% of everything else written, sculpted, painted, scripted this year. To be in the audience for the 10% though, to be 'there' when a great work is first played, to support a truly gifted composer that is struggling because the audience hasn't caught on yet, that is magic.

- All of my composer friends who write very modern music have day jobs as university/college profs. They're not rich but no one is starving.

- As orchestras continue to struggle, they will keep on making more and more safe choices, resulting in a future audience that knows nothing of concert music written after Debussy and before JW's Star Wars.

- There should always be the collective will to publicly (govt, baby) support music/art that is pushing envelopes. Letting the market decide would just lead to hundreds of slight variations on the Nutcracker or Mozart's 40th. As a Canadian, I'm very proud of the Canada Council and the provincial versions of this type of organization, as many risk-taking pieces would not have been realized without their help ($$).


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## Virharmonic (Aug 4, 2013)

Daryl @ Sun Aug 04 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Sat Aug 03 said:
> 
> 
> > From Today's L.A. Times:
> ...



London (Europe) usually charges a flat upfront fees. In the states (LA specifically) the Unions have created contracts which contain the upfront fees and backend liabilities + insurance and social fees (hence companies like EA have given direct order in the past not to record in LA, I'm not sure if this order is still in force). A lot of the times you will have to pay extra royalties even if the film/game doesn't make money. Hence so many recordings taking place in Europe, so overall it works out cheaper and with lower liability. London being the most expensive of course as it is already strongly established.
When we were doing our first product we couldn't even convince the singers that having a combination of upFront and Backend might be a good idea hence VoP was all upFront funded. Our next product is Combined and so will be the rest. We want to support the artists who work with us long term as we truly value their amazing work and we want them to earn decent wage!


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## Udo (Aug 17, 2013)

Somewhat related: "In response to the devastating cuts in arts and culture in the Netherlands, orchestras from all over the world show their support and concern about the situation in Holland" - see side bar in this link http://www.soldieroforange.nl (www.soldieroforange.nl)


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## Sasje (Aug 18, 2013)

Regularly there is this concern that VI will replace real musicians. I think that's a myth. Musicians play for their own enjoyment first, then if they don't get hired to do studio work, they'll join a band, orchestra, brassband, go solo or simply do live/session work. There is nothing more numbing than being a studio musician imho... 

Maybe they have run out of people who value classical pieces or live orchestrations? The classical music audience is a kind of dying breed. I do think that in the future classical pieces will no longer be performed as much. Maybe for very rare special occasions. I think they will be replaced by small orchestral outfits, like sextets. But a full blown orchestra will probably become exceedingly rare. Who knows, there might be a revival... it's all based on culture, and culture changes...


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