# Only one Stupid question about Counterpoints …



## Marc Emile (Mar 7, 2022)

I would like to know if it exists a software, plugin, stand-alone being able to elaborate counterpoints of a pre-existing cantus firmus. The 10 000 rules are not made for me...


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## Prockamanisc (Mar 7, 2022)

I'm making assumptions, but you'd be missing one of the most essential parts of being a composer if you didn't put in the hard work with this. The learning period will be short, but its effects will last forever.


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## mikeh-375 (Mar 7, 2022)

as you learn, you develop skills that will ultimately support your creativity. Don't miss out on the opportunity to improve - nothing worthwhile is easy nor quick, certainly not music, especially if excellence is your aim.
Marc, If you want to write without fear then knowing your onions is the best way to go about it.


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## Marc Emile (Mar 7, 2022)

Prockamanisc said:


> I'm making assumptions, but you'd be missing one of the most essential parts of being a composer if you didn't put in the hard work with this. The learning period will be short, but its effects will last forever.


I know exactly what you mean, it all depends on the constitution of the learner. The learning might be short for a normal person. But as I’m an heavy dyslectic person I still don’t get it. All dissonance are obvious to my ears but in writing it’s not manageable for me, even after more than 8 years of conservatory.


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## José Herring (Mar 7, 2022)

Marc Emile said:


> I would like to know if it exists a software, plugin, stand-alone being able to elaborate counterpoints of a pre-existing cantus firmus. The 10 000 rules are not made for me...


The only real thing you need to take away from that antiquated system of counter point is voice leading. Counterpoint as laid down by Fux is so wholy outdated that unless you aspire to write music for Church Choir most of the "rules" are outmoded. Fux counterpoint can't even take into account harmony that was created just 50 years later once composers started using 7th, nineths, and 11th scale degress without the need to resolve every dissonance into a consonance. Even composers of the late 18th and 19th centuries struggled to bend the rules to suit new techniques of expression. Hell even Bach stated that Fux counterpoint was the wrong way to learn about counterpoint and that one should start with 4 part writing so that he knows what notes to pick when he's writing in two parts. 

Brah, if you want to learn old ways of organizing music then actually learning figured bass is the way to go as it will lead you to thinking about chord voicing and voice leading. 

The only good thing that came from Fux style "rules" is that it forces you to think of independent lines but even that has it's limits because in orchestral writing to get the full power of an orchestra you don't always want the lines to be independent.

It's time we composers break free of those rules for good.
View attachment clip 1.mp4


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## Marc Emile (Mar 7, 2022)

mikeh-375 said:


> as you learn, you develop skills that will ultimately support your creativity. Don't miss out on the opportunity to improve - nothing worthwhile is easy nor quick, certainly not music, especially if excellence is your aim.
> Marc, If you want to write without fear then knowing your onions is the best way to go about it.


Mikeh, we could talk about what you are saying for hours and especially what support creativity. By the ways, in my field - Design - to be honest, I was much more creative 30 years ago, now that I really know my skills, I‘m only just a money machine for company I’m working for. Skills very often can kill creativity. 
From Writing without fear, you can’t take out Edit without mercy. One doesn’t live without the other .


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## Marc Emile (Mar 7, 2022)

José Herring said:


> The only real thing you need to take away from that antiquated system of counter point is voice leading. Counterpoint as laid down by Fux is so wholy outdated that unless you aspire to write music for Church Choir most of the "rules" are outmoded. Fux counterpoint can't even take into account harmony that was created just 50 years later once composers started using 7th, nineths, and 11th scale degress without the need to resolve every dissonance into a consonance. Even composers of the late 18th and 19th centuries struggled to bend the rules to suit new techniques of expression. Hell even Bach stated that Fux counterpoint was the wrong way to learn about counterpoint and that one should start with 4 part writing so that he knows what notes to pick when he's writing in two parts.
> 
> Brah, if you want to learn old ways of organizing music then actually learning figured bass is the way to go as it will lead you to thinking about chord voicing and voice leading.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much ! So, which reading could you advise ? 
… The only thought that I had when I studied the Fux counterpointer is that Bach knew how to read in Latin as its edition of Fux was from 1725... but I couldn’t “clic“ with any of Fux rules.


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## José Herring (Mar 7, 2022)

Marc Emile said:


> Thank you very much ! So, which reading could you advise ?
> … The only thought that I had when I studied the Fux counterpointer is that Bach knew how to read in Latin as its edition of Fux was from 1725... but I couldn’t “clic“ with any of Fux rules.


I'm stepping on the academic 3rd rail when I say, they aren't worth learning. I've tried for years, I know Fux counterpoint like the back of my hand. Even tried to follow all the rules early on in more contemporary sounding music and while it is fun didn't really lead to greater musical expression.

I really shouldn't say they are not worth learning but just keep in mind that music is more of an art than a science that has unwaivering rules.

As far as books, I personally liked Beethoven's teacher J.G. Albretchberger's book. Revolutionized my way of thinking and made it possible for me for the first time to write music away from the keyboard and to fully understand how Beethoven could write music while deaf. 

Now be warned the Albretchsberger book is in two parts and the second part completely doubles down on Fux counterpoint. But, he clearly states that style of counterpoint is only intended for sacred church music. Which was a good find for me that finally gave me the understanding to drop Fux all together.

Next, any good jazz book on chord voicing and voice leading is good. It's pretty simple and even Albretchberer's first part of the book gets into chord movement and chord voicing. Which was really useful.


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## ed buller (Mar 7, 2022)

José Herring said:


> The only real thing you need to take away from that antiquated system of counter point is voice leading. Counterpoint as laid down by Fux is so wholy outdated that unless you aspire to write music for Church Choir most of the "rules" are outmoded. Fux counterpoint can't even take into account harmony that was created just 50 years later once composers started using 7th, nineths, and 11th scale degress without the need to resolve every dissonance into a consonance. Even composers of the late 18th and 19th centuries struggled to bend the rules to suit new techniques of expression. Hell even Bach stated that Fux counterpoint was the wrong way to learn about counterpoint and that one should start with 4 part writing so that he knows what notes to pick when he's writing in two parts.
> 
> Brah, if you want to learn old ways of organizing music then actually learning figured bass is the way to go as it will lead you to thinking about chord voicing and voice leading.
> 
> ...


sanity, thy name is Jose

e


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## David Cuny (Mar 7, 2022)

Some time ago I when I thought I'd actually try to learn "proper" counterpoint, I started working on a web-based JavaScript program that would find counterpoint errors. No accidentals, and only quarter notes, so it's strictly a toy program. I was loosely based on a real program, but I can't remember the name of it.



http://webs.lanset.com/dcuny/satb/satb.html



Of course, there's no audio. At the time, it was a struggle to even figure out how to load and save files. I can't take credit for the Wizards, they were from someone else's library.

You'll probably have to click in the render area to get it to draw the staff the first time. Click on a rest to add a new chord. Click and drag the quarter notes to move them. Like magic, the program will report the many, many errors you are making:






I stopped working on it when I decided that strict counterpoint was too much work for me.


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## tc9000 (Mar 7, 2022)

J. G. Albrechtsberger's collected writings on thorough-bass, harmony and composition for self-instruction is available at the internet archive:









J. G. Albrechtsberger's collected writings on thorough-bass, harmony and composition for self-instruction... : Albrechtsberger, Johann Georg, 1736-1809 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


22



archive.org


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## JohnG (Mar 7, 2022)

I agree generally that learning counterpoint, while great fun if you love Bach, is possibly not the most immediately applicable or gratifying target for those aiming at media music.

I guess I think most of us would do better to listen really carefully to what we already love and learn more about that -- whether it's show tunes, tv music, 'epic,' or metal.

There's not enough time for most of us to boil the ocean and only _then_ turn to what we really want to pursue.

That said, I'm taking the advice of our own @José Herring and checking out Albrechtsberger, whose name I had forgotten since sophomore year.


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## José Herring (Mar 7, 2022)

JohnG said:


> I agree generally that learning counterpoint, while great fun if you love Bach, is possibly not the most immediately applicable or gratifying target for those aiming at media music.
> 
> I guess I think most of us would do better to listen really carefully to what we already love and learn more about that -- whether it's show tunes, tv music, 'epic,' or metal.
> 
> ...


Let me know how it goes. It's not like the info in the book is terribly advanced but for some reason it was laid out on a gradient that made me really understand how one harmony relates to another. So now it doesn't matter that I don't have perfect pitch and can hear every tone, I know when I write something down how it's going to sound conceptually. So one day I had to write a piece in an hour to be played by a few people and was away from my studio. So I just wrote it out on manuscript paper. Was it the best thing I ever wrote? Nah, but it worked which surprised me.


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## Inherently (Mar 7, 2022)

I couldn't agree more with the comments in this thread - and for what it's worth, I hope you will give figured bass and voice leading a chance. The nomenclature and 'rules' for these things are a bit of a traffic accident, but if you made it through eight years of music school, with dyslexia, you can take possession of counterpoint and fugue on your own terms.

A very smart young man I once worked with had been convinced by his teachers that he couldn't write prose, because the 'rules' that help almost everybody else were overwhelming. Telling a homeless kid that an essay is like a house, with rooms, and a roof, would not be how to encourage prose composition.

Here's a bit of information about software that will apply the rules of counterpoint, if you give it something like a melody, a hook, etc:



You can write more convincing, more highly compressed stuff without automation, but maybe the software can demonstrate the 'rules' without violating your innate sense of direction.

Anyhoo, cheers!


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## JohnG (Mar 7, 2022)

Inherently said:


> I hope you will give figured bass and voice leading a chance


Well, hats of to you for learning that with dyslexia. ugh.

I do know it but I find when composing that my old Beatles song books (and more recently Norah Jones) served me pretty well. Moreover, I found them more intuitive and memorable, whether that was because I have heard every Beatles song 1,000 times or something, I don't know.

I do like all this and am going through the Albrechtsberger now for fun. I am not finding the figured bass as he lays it out, however, the same as what I was taught in school. FYI


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## Marc Emile (Mar 8, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I'm stepping on the academic 3rd rail when I say, they aren't worth learning. I've tried for years, I know Fux counterpoint like the back of my hand. Even tried to follow all the rules early on in more contemporary sounding music and while it is fun didn't really lead to greater musical expression.
> 
> I really shouldn't say they are not worth learning but just keep in mind that music is more of an art than a science that has unwaivering rules.
> 
> ...



Thank you very Much for the info, I already downloaded it.


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## Marc Emile (Mar 8, 2022)

JohnG said:


> I agree generally that learning counterpoint, while great fun if you love Bach, is possibly not the most immediately applicable or gratifying target for those aiming at media music.
> 
> I guess I think most of us would do better to listen really carefully to what we already love and learn more about that -- whether it's show tunes, tv music, 'epic,' or metal.
> 
> ...


I’ll borrow your “ not enough time to boil the ocean“ as a counterpoint for a futur 3 hours meeting when I‘ll feel that nothing goes out of it. Thank you.


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## Marc Emile (Mar 8, 2022)

Inherently said:


> I couldn't agree more with the comments in this thread - and for what it's worth, I hope you will give figured bass and voice leading a chance. The nomenclature and 'rules' for these things are a bit of a traffic accident, but if you made it through eight years of music school, with dyslexia, you can take possession of counterpoint and fugue on your own terms.
> 
> A very smart young man I once worked with had been convinced by his teachers that he couldn't write prose, because the 'rules' that help almost everybody else were overwhelming. Telling a homeless kid that an essay is like a house, with rooms, and a roof, would not be how to encourage prose composition.
> 
> ...



Exactly as you said, on my own terms. I have to build my own rules to be able remember/function. As an example, If I order a cheese sandwich, 95% of the time I end up with a ham sandwich. The opposite is also true. My rule is to order a ham and cheese sandwich, therefore no deception. 
I checked out the video and it could help me for sure on the search for my own rules. Thank you.


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## Prockamanisc (Mar 8, 2022)

Here's 2 things to note: 

1) My teacher said learning counterpoint was like learning to drive a car. You don't just hop on the highway. Go through with 1 skill at a time until you feel comfortable with it.

2) I used to make a text document with all the rules. Once I finished all of the voices, I would go through each rule, one by one, and see if I had done it correctly. When I went through the rule, I deleted it from the text file. When I got to the end, I hit "undo" to repopulate the text document with the rules. It helped tremendously.

3) (a bonus thing) In 2015, I already had a masters in film scoring, a bachelors in composition, and I spent roughly 11 years in music school. I started studying with a new teacher (Terence Blanchard's teacher). He gave me my first assignment, which was counterpoint. In my head I was like "wtf, I've done this...do I have to start over? I've come so far". But I did it, and after a few years of study, I cannot begin to tell you how much my skillset improved by doing counterpoint. My music took a quantum leap. I wasn't learning counterpoint, because I already knew the rules...it's in the application of the rules, and the instincts and thought processes you personally develop while doing the counterpoint that are of value. Not the "rules". So don't learn the rules, learn the application.


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## Markus Kohlprath (Mar 9, 2022)

Although going through the counterpoint for composers class at the university I must admit I didn't go out as an expert for Fux or Jeppesen (which was taugth there) rules especially when it comes to more voices but there are some basics which I wouldn't call rules but maybe more acoustic phenomenons that help to keep in mind when you want to write independent lines that make sense to the ears imo. E.g. No parallel octaves and fifths, not reaching octaves and fifths in the same direction, resolving dissonances into consonances in the right manner and so on. This and developing an ear or taste for a balanced sound between the voices that is even and has no acoustic holes, gaps or unbalanced tension took me to a point where I feel I'm ok with the subject for my composing without double-checking everything with fux rules. But I agree that it helps enormously to develop an inner musical ear to go through the learning process to a certain extend.


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