# Amp Simulators for Virtual Guitars



## 98bpm (Jan 5, 2019)

I was working on a track using Electri6ity after finally setting it up to work the way I want it and decided to try using Guitar Rig 5 instead of the guilt in amp/cab. I discovered some of those amp sims made Electri6ity sound just awful while others weren't so bad. I then experimented with Cubase Amp Rack and had some moderate success, but not as fulfilling as I hoped.

Just curious of those out there using VST guitars like OTS Evolution series, Electri6ity, ISW guitars or Ample, etc.. What amp simulators do you use for your virtual guitars for clean and distorted guitar tones?


----------



## keepitsimple (Jan 5, 2019)

Scuffham S-Gear. The best for me.


----------



## Chr!s (Jan 5, 2019)

IMO the best amp simulators are actually the free ones.

Ignite's Emissary or LePou's Legion are freeware and have sounded better than any paid amp sim I've used.

Though I greatly prefer using real amps+cabs (and guitars), I haven't recorded electric guitar stuff in years now. So there might be something better out there by now.


----------



## Henu (Jan 6, 2019)

Chr!s has a point- both are still valid options and sound very good when combined with decent cab impulses. However, for jazz or pop it's a bit different thing. Here's a topic with more discussion!


----------



## transverb (Jan 6, 2019)

S-Gear gets a lot of love for their clean / crunch.

Personally I've used Kuassa and Kazrong - Thermionik. Now I have a real Fender Deluxe I can use so I'm re-evaluating. Haha. 

PS. Here is a nifty IR loader which is great... and free. 
https://lancasteraudio.com/pulse/


----------



## Dex (Jan 6, 2019)

I’ve tried a bunch and the only one I really get along with is Thermionik.


----------



## shawnsingh (Jan 6, 2019)

I went for the Line 6 Helix Native plugin. Using it with ISW Shreddage 2 + IBZ + SRP guitars. Across the internet, seems Line6 Helix series has been well received, except for the cab IRs, and a lot of people say to load Ownhammer IRs instead. I personally am not experienced enough with guitar tones to worry about it.

Here are some examples of Shreddage 2 + Helix Native:
http://suonlabs.com/work-in-progress-guitar-example.mp3 (seek to 3:18 on this example)
http://suonlabs.com/1dJ9oQsD.mp3 (seek to 2:05 on this example)


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jan 6, 2019)

Amplitube 4 and S-Gear are the two i use most.

Amplitube 4 Fender, Fender 2, and Mesa packs are excellent.

S-Gear is due for a major upgrade, soon.

For bass i use Amplitube 4's Ampeg packs as well as Overloud's Mark Studio and Brainworx Bassdude.

For cabinet simulation, Two Notes Wall of Sound and Redwirez Bigbox Collection are worth checking out.

I find using a DI like the Radial J48 into my Babyface Pro mic pre gives the best signal to drive these sims.

I also like to use the Klanghelm VUMT DLX meter set at -18dbf = 0vu to trim my signal before hitting the sim input.


----------



## DSmolken (Jan 6, 2019)

Also add Shattered Glass Audio Ace - most sims focus on big tube amps, but Ace is great for that lower-gain, lower-wattage thing.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jan 6, 2019)




----------



## Monkberry (Jan 6, 2019)

I'm a guitarist mainly using a Gibson 335 and Fender Strat and have found Amplitube 4 Fender Collection 1 & 2 as well as their Mesa Boogie Collection to be very good. Equal merits go to S-Gear for the clean to crunch sounds but higher gain seems to work better with the Amplitube 4 Mesa Boogie Collection. If your VST guitar of choice doesn't get you there with builtin amp simulators, one of these should do it.


----------



## keepitsimple (Jan 6, 2019)

Monkberry said:


> I'm a guitarist mainly using a Gibson 335 and Fender Strat and have found Amplitube 4 Fender Collection 1 & 2 as well as their Mesa Boogie Collection to be very good. Equal merits go to S-Gear for the clean to crunch sounds but higher gain seems to work better with the Amplitube 4 Mesa Boogie Collection. If your VST guitar of choice doesn't get you there with builtin amp simulators, one of these should do it.


Nothing matches a Strat better than this. I love this amp.


----------



## kavinsky (Jan 6, 2019)

Amplitube is one of the worst. Id suggest staying away from it.
The helix is great. The best up to this date. Pricey though

S-gear amps are nice but extremely dark, work fine if you have a bright source. Not an all-rounder.
Just fails to deliver modern tones in comparison to the axe/helix.

Fortin ampsims are also pretty good, but never tried them myself


----------



## Chris Hurst (Jan 6, 2019)

I’m a guitarist as well and have tried them all. All are useable but it depends on what sound you are trying to ‘simulate’.

For Mesa gain, Lepou gets the closest for me (I play live through a Mesa). I personally cannot get Amplitube close. Brainwork also have a couple of Mesa sims which are pretty good for that sound.

Otherwise, I always turn to S-Gear, it is pretty good to be honest.

Having said all that, Kemper would appear to be the way forward, but expensive.


----------



## MartinH. (Jan 6, 2019)

Which of the free (or guitar rig) ones is best suited for black metal? So far I'm using Emissary.


----------



## AllanH (Jan 6, 2019)

The best I've tried is TH3 by Overloud
https://overloud.com/products/th3-full


----------



## GtrString (Jan 6, 2019)

Haha ask guitarists about tones.. I think you will find that it is highly mix dependent what will sound good, because perception of tone is relative to the frequencies already present in what you hear (context).

I dont use ampsims anymore, but still use the cab ir's. And in fact Amplitube's cabs are pretty good and measure up with third party ir's, imo.

I would think the new Waves PRS sims are pretty good for heavy tones. You can also try mix and match amps with different cabs, as cabinets makes a big difference in the sound.

Like try an amp from Electri6ity, mute the cab, and use a cab from Guitar Rig. Try different combinations like that, and you may find a tone that works.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jan 6, 2019)

kavinsky said:


> Amplitube is one of the worst. Id suggest staying away from it.
> The helix is great. The best up to this date. Pricey though
> 
> S-gear amps are nice but extremely dark, work fine if you have a bright source. Not an all-rounder.
> ...



Odd and humorous.


----------



## 98bpm (Jan 6, 2019)

GtrString said:


> Like try an amp from Electri6ity, mute the cab, and use a cab from Guitar Rig. Try different combinations like that, and you may find a tone that works.


I hadn’t considered mixing amps and cab that way. I’ll have to give that a try. Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## Chr!s (Jan 6, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> Which of the free (or guitar rig) ones is best suited for black metal? So far I'm using Emissary.



For the truest, kvlt black metal, just like Mayhem used to make: You should ideally run a metalzone guitar pedal through the cheapest combo amp you can find, with the gain maxed out on both amp and pedal, absolutely no midrange, and record it all via a Fisher Price brand tape recorder.


----------



## MartinH. (Jan 6, 2019)

Has anyone experimented with splitting the signal and "layering" ampsims? Or combining low frequency output from one amp setup with high frequency output from another? There are so many possibilities, I'm scared to get sucked into that rabithole again.




Chr!s said:


> For the truest, kvlt black metal, just like Mayhem used to make: You should ideally run a metalzone guitar pedal through the cheapest combo amp you can find, with the gain maxed out on both amp and pedal, absolutely no midrange, and record it all via a Fisher Price brand tape recorder.



Thanks for the advice, much appreciated! Maybe I can dig up an IR of that recorder, I don't want to introduce any hardware to the chain.


----------



## 98bpm (Jan 6, 2019)

Chris Hurst said:


> I’m a guitarist as well and have tried them all. All are useable but it depends on what sound you are trying to ‘simulate’.
> 
> For Mesa gain, Lepou gets the closest for me (I play live through a Mesa). I personally cannot get Amplitube close. Brainwork also have a couple of Mesa sims which are pretty good for that sound.
> 
> ...


As for Brainworx, they had a sale recently and I found their bx_mega dual that has a sim of a Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier. Just bought it so I have to install and try it out.


----------



## Chr!s (Jan 6, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> Has anyone experimented with splitting the signal and "layering" ampsims? Or combining low frequency output from one amp setup with high frequency output from another? There are so many possibilities, I'm scared to get sucked into that rabithole again.



IMO it's basically never really necessary. You can do this with real amps too, and I know guys like Andy Timmons do or have done so. But it's not really worth it, I find.

The different frequency range blending is more common on modern metal music bass guitar as far as I know. Where the low end will be clean signal and the higher frequencies will be distortion.



MartinH. said:


> Thanks for the advice, much appreciated! Maybe I can dig up an IR of that recorder, I don't want to introduce any hardware to the chain



Lol. Really though, I think any high-gain amp, even the Emissary, is good for any genre of metal.


----------



## kavinsky (Jan 6, 2019)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> Odd and humorous.


don't be too salty man. I'm sorry your to hurt your feelings.
Amplitube's is a steaming festering piece of banta dump. High gain amps wise
Especially their Mesa emus.

I know what I'm talking about. Been doing it for a long while and was able to shootout nearly every offering on the market against their analog counterparts.


----------



## Chris Hurst (Jan 6, 2019)

kavinsky said:


> don't be too salty man. I'm sorry your to hurt your feelings.
> Amplitube's is a steaming festering piece of banta dump. High gain amps wise
> Especially their Mesa emus.
> 
> I know what I'm talking about. Been doing it for a long while and was able to shootout nearly every offering on the market against their analog counterparts.




Have to agree on IK’s Mesa collection. I was really disappointed by it when I purchased it. I don’t think it really sounds like a Mesa Rectifier at all.

Some of the other sounds/collections are ok though, but I prefer S-Gear.

Good shootout by the way! Amazing how different they all sound.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jan 6, 2019)

kavinsky said:


> don't be too salty man. I'm sorry your to hurt your feelings.
> Amplitube's is a steaming festering piece of banta dump. High gain amps wise
> Especially their Mesa emus.
> 
> I know what I'm talking about. Been doing it for a long while and was able to shootout nearly every offering on the market against their analog counterparts.




Wow, that's salty?

Talk about sensitive.

Hurt my feelings? Project much?



Though i had the opposite experience, i would never discourage someone from trying something.

Or

Say something is good while simultaneously saying i never tried it.

It's just software.

Silliness.

"Long time..."

Really?

We've descended to comparing lengths so quickly?


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jan 6, 2019)

kavinsky said:


>




great shootout.

nice Schecter too - Custom Shop is on my wish list.


----------



## Dandezebra (Jan 6, 2019)

TSE X50 is by far my favorite for metal! Black can easily be achieved by using the right (wrong) impulse. 

Revalver is cool as it can load other VSTs. 

Blue Cat Axiom is a beast that I am now exploring. It is deep and a little different, but the price is worth it for Late Replies alone!

Kazrog plugs are beasts too.


----------



## lp59burst (Jan 6, 2019)

Zoot_Rollo said:


>



Greg's such an amazing guitar player... I saw him at a guitar clinic a few year back and he was spectacular - super funny too... 

The IKM Fender stuff sounded good too...


----------



## lp59burst (Jan 6, 2019)

kavinsky said:


> Amplitube is one of the worst. Id suggest staying away from it.
> The helix is great. The best up to this date. Pricey though
> 
> S-gear amps are nice but extremely dark, work fine if you have a bright source. Not an all-rounder.
> ...


I disagree about Amplitube stuff... the "clean(er)" amps, Fender, AC30, Marshall's, HiWatt, etc... amps are great...

I'm not into the "Drop D" muted flat fifths "chugga-chugga-chugga" stuff so I can't really comment on the high-gain amps...   
I have a Helix unit and the Helix Native app... we agree there... they're both amazing .

I'm getting a Kemper this year too...


----------



## Dewdman42 (Jan 6, 2019)

The kemper keeps tempting me. I think Amplitube's high gain sounds are awful..i mean they sound good at first but I get ear fatigue within minutes...they sound positively sterile in terms of feel. So many other options I enjoy playing more. You do get a very wide range of tone with it and its definitely better then say GuitarRig. I do like the Fender collection on it and the Jimi Hendrix stuff and sometimes I will combine some modern amp heads with the hendrix cabs and get some sounds that are cool and vintage dirty in a cool way...but still...I get ear fatigue very quickly while playing it. The feel is just not there for me compared to some others.

I'm a huge fan of the never-mentioned Vox JamVox3. Not for metal. But for Vox sounds..its very very good.


----------



## dgburns (Jan 6, 2019)

@kavinsky - great, like I need more encouragement to pickup a dual rectifier.

I like the comparison video, but I wonder about if the settings on the plugs could have been dialed to be brighter. Also the real amp sounded less gained, more clean somehow. Not that I mind, but in the spirit of conversation, the thought came to me that maybe setting up two plugs, one with a cleaner sound to capture that clean element of the real rectifier- you might be able to get the plugs closer.

Kemper still closer, but it’s not exactly like the real thing either, the real amps I profiled and compared to the kemper ‘breathed’ more. The kemper profiles do the opposite of the plugins, the profiled sound is cleaner and I find I have to turn up the gain a bit.


----------



## 98bpm (Jan 6, 2019)

shawnsingh said:


> I went for the Line 6 Helix Native plugin. Using it with ISW Shreddage 2 + IBZ + SRP guitars. Across the internet, seems Line6 Helix series has been well received, except for the cab IRs, and a lot of people say to load Ownhammer IRs instead. I personally am not experienced enough with guitar tones to worry about it.
> 
> Here are some examples of Shreddage 2 + Helix Native:
> http://suonlabs.com/work-in-progress-guitar-example.mp3 (seek to 3:18 on this example)
> http://suonlabs.com/1dJ9oQsD.mp3 (seek to 2:05 on this example)


Nice tracks!


----------



## MartinH. (Jan 6, 2019)

kavinsky said:


> don't be too salty man. I'm sorry your to hurt your feelings.
> Amplitube's is a steaming festering piece of banta dump. High gain amps wise
> Especially their Mesa emus.
> 
> I know what I'm talking about. Been doing it for a long while and was able to shootout nearly every offering on the market against their analog counterparts.




Cool video! Can you tell me what Cab IR/Sim was used with the Lecto?


----------



## kavinsky (Jan 6, 2019)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> Say something is good while simultaneously saying i never tried it.


Based on the great sounding demos and universally high praise.
Never tried it myself yes, no contradiction here. It sounds a bit too cold/sharp plexi-esque to my needs.

Of course you can do music with anything you like. Doesnt change the fact that Amplitube pales in comparison.



MartinH. said:


> Cool video! Can you tell me what Cab IR/Sim was used with the Lecto?


Ownhammer Recto 4x12 V60 was used for all the amps, including the real Dual Recto


----------



## MartinH. (Jan 7, 2019)

kavinsky said:


> Ownhammer Recto 4x12 V60 was used for all the amps, including the real Dual Recto



Thanks a lot!


----------



## Eldhrimnir (Jan 7, 2019)

IMO, the best amp sims for rock and high gain stuff is

Fortin Nameless Suite
https://neuraldsp.com/products/fortin-nameless-plugin/

And TSE X-30 and X-50
https://www.tseaudio.com/home

A big part of the sound is the cab IR though, so make sure to experiment.


----------



## Henu (Jan 7, 2019)

A bit off-topic, but...

Those Norwegian bands used usually the best amplifiers they could get their hands into at the time. How the sound was then molded is completely another topic, though. Marshalls (JCM800/900) were often used, and many of them used what Pytten (the studio owner) had in Grieghallen- including also that infamous Peavey Bandit. And yes, Metal Zone was very popular in front.

Mixing was another thing. Pytten had the tendency on many albums to make one guitar very thin and evil-sounding while the other one took care of the low-mids. The lows were usually very absent from all guitars. Those combined together, accompanied with the phase-canceling room of his and a lot of cheap hall reverb made the overall guitar sound as we know it. But Pytten had also the tendency to make each album sound different (one of things which made him so awesome) to each other, so your experience may vary. Comparing e.g. Burzum's "Hvis Lyset Tar Oss" to Aeternus' "Beyond the Wandering Moon" is rather pointless, even though many similarities can be indeed found.

For what it comes to reproducing the Grieghallen sound in general, it's also completely doable to an extent. Here are some fun experiments done with Bias Amp Desktop (v1).

The upper one is Hades' "Again Shall Be"- guitar sound switching between the album and emulated versions.

The lower one is a clip from Darkthrone's "Under a Funeral Moon" with also bass included-starting crossfaded in halfway in the bass break and then crossfading back to the real one after the drums creep in.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/hades_asb_ab-mp3.17695/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/darkthrone_uafm_ab-mp3.17696/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Feb 5, 2019)




----------



## Divico (Feb 5, 2019)

kavinsky said:


> don't be too salty man. I'm sorry your to hurt your feelings.
> Amplitube's is a steaming festering piece of banta dump. High gain amps wise
> Especially their Mesa emus.
> 
> I know what I'm talking about. Been doing it for a long while and was able to shootout nearly every offering on the market against their analog counterparts.



Its funny how only LePou is close to the sound (taking Axe FX out of the calculation). Winning against paid software :D


----------



## MartinH. (Feb 5, 2019)

Henu said:


> A bit off-topic, but...
> 
> Those Norwegian bands used usually the best amplifiers they could get their hands into at the time. How the sound was then molded is completely another topic, though. Marshalls (JCM800/900) were often used, and many of them used what Pytten (the studio owner) had in Grieghallen- including also that infamous Peavey Bandit. And yes, Metal Zone was very popular in front.
> 
> ...




Only saw your post just now. Thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge on how these sounds where crafted! I know whom to ask when I tinker with Blackmetal guitar tone again .


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Feb 5, 2019)




----------



## Henu (Feb 5, 2019)

The 5150 sounds best and most real for me, and I also liked the Soldano. The Mesas were a bit lifeless, which I think is the biggest probem with Amplitube in general. Something small is missing.

I got myself AT4 (the whole package) on black friday and was planning to use it for my "go to"- amp sim for metal guitars. Though I love the customization options, it is still missing that 10-15% of the realism which e.g. Bias Amp offers in my opinion. It's a very handy tool and gets the job done, but I still need to fiddle around more with the cab options and mic positions to make it sound more realistic and making it respond better to the actual heavy playing style. 

Also, @MartinH. , you're welcome- just let me know if you have any questions!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 6, 2019)

kavinsky said:


> I know what I'm talking about. Been doing it for a long while and was able to shootout nearly every offering on the market against their analog counterparts.



Very interesting video, but a suggestion: all the emulations are narrower, at a lower level than the real thing, and seem like they need some ambience - i.e. they *all* sound like crap next to the real thing when presented like that! But it's still a very good comparison video, because you can definitely hear the differences.

One other point: it's the higher stuff especially that makes some guitar/amp simulations sound plastic. War guitar parts like these sell a lot better.


----------



## sostenuto (Feb 6, 2019)

Dummie Keyboardist here, so no real clue.
Got Guitar Rig5 and all Kazrog LLC (all Thermionik). As non-guitarist, get lost with these very quickly. 
Use all Orange Tree Samples guitar libs and find Greg's Snapshots /Presets get me going, and close to what is needed.
Is this approach pretty weak ??


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Feb 6, 2019)




----------



## TimCox (Feb 6, 2019)

I rather like BIAS Amp 2 by Positive Grid. Although that's with real guitar so I can't comment on how it sounds with VI's


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Feb 7, 2019)

I've been revisiting most of these the last week or so.

For drop D chug, A4 Soldano with some room works for me.

Even after trying Nameless, NTS, SS-11X, Thermionic, etc


----------



## bill45 (Feb 7, 2019)

I am demoing the Dimebag collection.sounds good so far.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 7, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Very interesting video, but a suggestion: all the emulations are narrower, at a lower level than the real thing, and seem like they need some ambience - i.e. they *all* sound like crap next to the real thing when presented like that! But it's still a very good comparison video, because you can definitely hear the differences.
> 
> One other point: it's the higher stuff especially that makes some guitar/amp simulations sound plastic. War guitar parts like these sell a lot better.



You know, it would be interesting to hear the amp simulators through a miked speaker compared to the real thing with a mic on the amp.


----------



## Craig Peters (Feb 7, 2019)

I would say check out the Neural DSP amp sims based off the Fortin amps. Best ones I’ve used and have been my go to’s for metal tones. Also JST has some good ones and the Emissary one is free and heard good stuff about too.


----------



## nas (Feb 8, 2019)

I've had good results with S-Gear. It also works well if you mix it with analog pedals in front.


----------



## Lode_Runner (Feb 8, 2019)

sostenuto said:


> Dummie Keyboardist here, so no real clue.
> Got Guitar Rig5 and all Kazrog LLC (all Thermionik). As non-guitarist, get lost with these very quickly.
> Use all Orange Tree Samples guitar libs and find Greg's Snapshots /Presets get me going, and close to what is needed.
> Is this approach pretty weak ??


If you like the way it sounds in a mix, just keep doing what you're doing. There's so many skills we need to learn as composers, sometimes it's better to just focus on learning to do your most important tasks well, and accept passable elsewhere.

That said, amps (and their sims) are often very simple pieces of equipment to learn how to use. The more complex models have 3 channels (which are usually clean, crunch and lead - the names are pretty self explanatory as to when you might use them). It might look likes there's a lot of knobs, but it's simply that each channel will have it's own knobs: gain (which allows you to make the sound dirtier), volume, and some eq knobs. Sometimes there's a presence knob, or a bright switch, reverb or tremolo. Just play around with the knobs to get an idea of what they do to the sound. The other two aspects in a simple set-up are effects pedals which go before the amp (overdrive/distortion, wah, chorus, phaser, flange, tremolo, delay, reverb are the most common - once again just load them up and see what they do to the sound) and speaker cabinets that go after the amp (the simplest thing to do is just stick with the cab type that is matched to the amp until you're ready to experiment).

A useful exercise is to find guitar sounds you like, research the guitarist's rig, and select sims that match. Then think about how the sound still differs from the recording and make considered tweaks to the knobs to get it closer to the recording. Bear in mind not all amp sims are going to be able to do a convincing job replicating the sound though. From what you have I'd recommend using Guitar Rig for effects pedals, and Kazrog for amps and cabs.


----------



## MartinH. (Feb 8, 2019)

Henu said:


> Also, @MartinH. , you're welcome- just let me know if you have any questions!


Will do, thanks a lot!


I have tried numerous cab sims and IRs, including "Messiah Cab", but for some reason very often I end up using the "Mesa Boogie Clean - Blackface Twin.wav" that comes with Reapers Convolution Amp/Cab Modeler JS plugin. Anyone else here who tried that one?
When I compare it to others they almost all sound like listening through a pillow to me. But I can't believe that all the others are wrong, it's more likely that I'm doing something wrong in my mix I think.


----------



## keepitsimple (Feb 8, 2019)

If there's anything worse than too many strings libraries or piano libraries, it would be: too many amp sims.

Just too many overwhelming choices lol. I don't know but i just love the response and dynamics i get from S-Gear despite all the new stuff that's been coming out lately.


----------



## richardt4520 (Feb 8, 2019)

Pretty much anything can be made to sound decent these days. I usually prefer to just run a real amp into a Torpedo using IRs when I need to keep the volume down and mic it if it's something crucial. So my only consideration when using an amp sim is whether it's close to what it says it's modelling. The only thing I've tried, in 30+ years of recording guitar, that sounded like the real thing to me was Kazrog's stuff. I don't use or like his IRs but his 2 channel Dual Rec model sold me on his suite after playing around with it. Using Redwirez IRs, I'd be hard pressed to tell it soloed from tracks I'd recorded when I had a couple of 2 channel Duals. I've never heard anything that really sounded at all like those amps-hardware or software, and every modeller out there has a so called Dual Rectifier model in it. I haven't spent time with the other models of gear I've owned (Framus Cobra, Diezels, Engls, etc) to see if they matched up well since it's usually faster to just plug into my Mesa through IRs, so ymmv there.

I haven't tried SGear but maaan does it sound good on the mid gain stuff. That's for sure.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Feb 8, 2019)

bill45 said:


> I am demoing the Dimebag collection.sounds good so far.


Throwing this into my CV '60s Strat this weekend.


----------



## pderbidge (Feb 8, 2019)

All this talk of the "ultimate Amp Sim" makes me smile a bit. I can't tell you how many times I've been in the studio with guitar players who were very particular about using a real amp (because we all know nothing beats the real thing right?) and then later watch the mix engineer replace the sound with an amp sim (even the basic Waves GTR) because it was easier to dial in and fit in the mix only later to show the band the final mix and the guitar players drooled over how good he made them sound. If they only knew

PS, I'm a fan of Bias myself but soured a little on their prices so have chosen not to upgrade to V2 and instead picked up a few sales on Mercuriall amps instead.


----------



## richardt4520 (Feb 8, 2019)

pderbidge said:


> All this talk of the "ultimate Amp Sim" makes me smile a bit.



That's why I prefaced with "you can get a good sound out of just about anything these days"! haha! You really can! I prefer using a real amp and IRs, strictly because I can play in real time with no latency but sometimes record a split of the direct guitar in case I want to reamp or use a sim. My buddy, a well known local metal engineer ALWAYS replaces with sims and gets ferocious tones!


----------



## keepitsimple (Feb 8, 2019)

pderbidge said:


> picked up a few sales on Mercuriall amps instead.


I'm demoing their new SS-11X and i really like it.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Feb 8, 2019)

There are some good amp softwares out there. I am still mostly using either my Axe Fx 1 (have it like 10 years almost) or my Kemper with my custom profiles which somehow gives me more what I am looking for when it comes to meaty metal sounds.


----------



## sostenuto (Feb 8, 2019)

Lode_Runner said:


> If you like the way it sounds in a mix, just keep doing what you're doing. There's so many skills we need to learn as composers, sometimes it's better to just focus on learning to do your most important tasks well, and accept passable elsewhere.
> **************
> _From what you have I'd recommend using Guitar Rig for effects pedals, and Kazrog for amps and cabs._



Going to try this approach and compare with what I'm currently doing. Should learn a bunch in the process. Many thanks !!


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Feb 13, 2019)

revisiting LePou

fantastic!

here are my current faves for chunky - Ownhammer HH1 through WoS.


----------



## Steve Lum (Feb 13, 2019)

Hah! Your screenie of studio one console looks just like what I have been doing lately, set up a bunch of sims, then click through to A-B and find the winner. Blow out your ears/monitors on feedback by turning a bunch of them on


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Feb 13, 2019)

Steve Lum said:


> Hah! Your screenie of studio one console looks just like what I have been doing lately, set up a bunch of sims, then click through to A-B and find the winner. Blow out your ears/monitors on feedback by turning a bunch of them on



these sims really jump alive when sent to 2 buses panned.

say what you will about Amplitube 4, but with some finessing in the Cab Room, it's still my go-to when starting a new track.

Ignite is killer too.

i've been trying to get the Poulen Soldano running, but it's not showing in Studio One for some reason.

Anyone get it to work?



the .dll files i have:


----------



## marcotronic (Feb 13, 2019)

Dandezebra said:


> TSE X50 is by far my favorite for metal!



Same here - I've tested pretty much all the countless alternatives out there but for distorted guitars the TSE X50 is by far the one that comes closest to the realism of the Kemper I once owned (but had to sold as I needed money and couldn't justify keeping it as I rarely recorded any guitars  ) The TSE X50 has that creamy distortion that comes closest to a real amp mic'ed.

Marco


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Feb 13, 2019)

marcotronic said:


> Same here - I've tested pretty much all the countless alternatives out there but for distorted guitars the TSE X50 is by far the one that comes closest to the realism of the Kemper I once owned (but had to sold as I needed money and couldn't justify keeping it as I rarely recorded any guitars  ) The TSE X50 has that creamy distortion that comes closest to a real amp mic'ed.
> 
> Marco



forgot about that one!


----------



## Steve Lum (Feb 13, 2019)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> say what you will about Amplitube 4



+1

I recently decided to stop the head-spinning about what's the best sim and decided to just work at being good at Amplitube 4 (although I will probably do the TH-U upgrade to keep pace). Most of my use is on sampled guitar (by choice, I can play but want to get good at programming vi) and I find the bigger challenge is the tone of the source (true with real guitar too). Second biggest challenge for me is space, getting the environment/depth right. In the end the amp is the genre part (again, for me).


----------



## marcotronic (Feb 13, 2019)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> forgot about that one!



Which one do you recommend instead?


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Feb 13, 2019)

marcotronic said:


> Which one do you recommend instead?



just tried the TSE X50 demo.

yow!

easy buy!!!


----------



## marcotronic (Feb 13, 2019)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> just tried the TSE X50 demo.
> 
> yow!
> 
> easy buy!!!


sorry, I read "forgET that one" and you wrote "forgot that one" - so I thought you don't like the TSE X50 and would recommend something else instead  Sorry for the confusion. Yes, the TSE is awesome. Everything else I've heard and tried so far sounds like the typical digital amp sim. Cold and artificial, harsh distortions. The TSE has that real amp feeling.


----------



## brett (Mar 21, 2019)

Thoughts on the IK Amplitude Fender collections? Quality?

Interested given the current deals that are on at the moment...


----------



## midiman (Mar 21, 2019)

Scuffham S-Gear. no.1


----------



## Strezov (Mar 22, 2019)

BIAS are pretty fast to work with.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (May 29, 2019)




----------



## Zero&One (May 29, 2019)

I'm still on TH2, got too many presets dialled in now. 
But LePou stuff is probably the best, I'd have paid £££ for them considering the quality and ease of use.


----------



## Quasar (May 29, 2019)

brett said:


> Thoughts on the IK Amplitude Fender collections? Quality?
> 
> Interested given the current deals that are on at the moment...


I have Amplitube, but only ever use the SVX series for v-bass, which I think is really good. For faux guitars, I have settled on Scuffham S-Gear and Kazrog Recabinet 4.

Since then I'm done looking because there are simply too many out there...


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (May 29, 2019)

James H said:


> I'm still on TH2, got too many presets dialled in now.
> But LePou stuff is probably the best, I'd have paid £££ for them considering the quality and ease of use.




what are you using for Cabs?


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (May 29, 2019)

Quasar said:


> I have Amplitube, but only ever use the SVX series for v-bass, which I think is really good. For faux guitars, I have settled on Scuffham S-Gear and Kazrog Recabinet 4.
> 
> Since then I'm done looking because there are simply too many out there...




agreed, i have settled into Neural DSP's Plini for the time being.


----------



## burp182 (May 29, 2019)

I get the impression that most of this discussion has centered on using amp sims with real, physical guitars. The OP asked about using sims with virtual instrument guitars, which would tend to interact differently than real instruments. Having read the entire thread, I didn’t see much of anything specific to that (although I got a lot of useful information about death metal dual guitars that may prove useful at some point). 
If I’m wrong or missing important points from the discussion, please tell me. But, to the OP’s question, what are you finding particularly effective with VI guitars?


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (May 29, 2019)

burp182 said:


> I get the impression that most of this discussion has centered on using amp sims with real, physical guitars. The OP asked about using sims with virtual instrument guitars, which would tend to interact differently than real instruments. Having read the entire thread, I didn’t see much of anything specific to that (although I got a lot of useful information about death metal dual guitars that may prove useful at some point).
> If I’m wrong or missing important points from the discussion, please tell me. But, to the OP’s question, what are you finding particularly effective with VI guitars?



ahhh, sorry, i missed that part of the thread.

i don't use VI guitars, but i would think some of the SIMs listed would work equally well.

but, i'll stop posting.


----------



## Zero&One (May 29, 2019)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> what are you using for Cabs?



Usually load the IR's "s-preshigh" and "ASEM RECTO V30 L2". Think they've been around for years but I still love them.

Edit: I'm using Shreddage 2 for VI guitars these days. Just seemed the easiest from the bunch, great sound. Not jumped to Shreddage 3 yet


----------



## burp182 (May 29, 2019)

Zoot, please don’t! I think you’re a great source for information and opinions. Most any thread is more valuable with your involvement. And anyone who references the good Captain in their handle is my kind of guy...


----------



## oks2024 (May 29, 2019)

I tested "Plini Archetype" by NeuralDSP recently, and I was super impressed.
It sounds awesome, it's a super complete package in a really easy to use interface. There is 3 amps (clean, crunch/distortion and lead), drive, noise gate and compression pedal in front of the amp, delay and reverb after, and nice multi-band eq. And there is also tons of settings to tweak in the cabinet simulation window.

I used the 14 days trial, and it seems to cover all the type of sounds I would want, from cleans to heavy distortions, with good effects.

Now I'm going to test their NTS Suite plugin, I also heard a lot of good things about this one. I guess it's less versatile, but as I mainly use my guitars for metal it might be better for me.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (May 29, 2019)

oks2024 said:


> I tested "Plini Archetype" by NeuralDSP recently, and I was super impressed.
> It sounds awesome, it's a super complete package in a really easy to use interface. There is 3 amps (clean, crunch/distortion and lead), drive, noise gate and compression pedal in front of the amp, delay and reverb after, and nice multi-band eq. And there is also tons of settings to tweak in the cabinet simulation window.
> 
> I used the 14 days trial, and it seems to cover all the type of sounds I would want, from cleans to heavy distortions, with good effects.
> ...




i love the Plini - it really is a great all around package - pedals, amps, cabs, graphic EQ, delay, and reverb.

stereo.

great cleans and fusionesque crunch/drive which speaks to me.

Plini and the high output pups in my Tele (BK Piledrivers) and in my Strat (Dimebucker-bridge) are great matches.


----------



## sostenuto (May 29, 2019)

burp182 said:


> I get the impression that most of this discussion has centered on using amp sims with real, physical guitars. The OP asked about using sims with virtual instrument guitars, which would tend to interact differently than real instruments. Having read the entire thread, I didn’t see much of anything specific to that (although I got a lot of useful information about death metal dual guitars that may prove useful at some point).
> If I’m wrong or missing important points from the discussion, please tell me. But, to the OP’s question, what are you finding particularly effective with VI guitars?



_Lightweight User (pianist /keyboardist) _ here, and use everything (_VI_) Orange Tree Samples has offered; also some from NI_K11U. Have all of Kazrog LLC Thermionik and Recabinet.
No issues whatsoever with Kazrog amp sims, but lack of guitarist chops takes me to Greg's OTS Presets most of the time.


----------



## karelpsota (May 29, 2019)

Shreddage 2 is great. There's a free demo version of Shreddage 3 too 

To me, a guitar sound is only as good as how it sounds in context.
When I see all those solo demoes... I roll my eyes.
I usually *remake the best sounding songs*, to check my plugins.

Here's Korn - Word Up with Shreaddage and Waves.
A big part of the sound is *EQ* though! There are some huge dips in there.
Then IR and pedals are really key. And then the amp... blabla.

Also, *the* *bass sound is 50% of the perceived guitar sound!*
I spend quite some time on the bass. It's running 3 parallel racks in ableton. One is fuzz + overdrive, then just fuzz, then just dry for that slapping attack.




​


----------



## MartinH. (May 29, 2019)

burp182 said:


> I get the impression that most of this discussion has centered on using amp sims with real, physical guitars. The OP asked about using sims with virtual instrument guitars, which would tend to interact differently than real instruments. Having read the entire thread, I didn’t see much of anything specific to that (although I got a lot of useful information about death metal dual guitars that may prove useful at some point).
> If I’m wrong or missing important points from the discussion, please tell me. But, to the OP’s question, what are you finding particularly effective with VI guitars?



Imho there's nothing fundamentally different between using a VI guitar sample library with amp sims and a real guitar recordead clean over a DI box and then fed into amp sims. On the sim side there's nothing you'd need to specifically change between one and the other.

The areas that I've found to be the hardest to replicate well with VI guitars are: 
everything that repeats a single note very often, 
tremolo picking at speeds other than those that were recorded, 
everything that needs the guitar body's or string's resonance to work (e.g. open string feedback),
bends maybe (I didn't actually test them, but I'd imagine them to sound fake compared to the real thing),
chords (YMMV, I felt VI is lacking there unless the chord is recorded as a whole), 
fine control over palm mutes.


----------



## Zero&One (May 29, 2019)

As we are on a Korn theme... I done this with Shreddage a while back. It was done for fun and very quickly...


----------



## neblix (May 29, 2019)

Mercuriall *Reaxis *and the Neural DSP's *Fortin Nameless *are top quality high gain amplifiers (Go Fortin NTS if you want really aggressive modern metal). If you want to go cheap, Kuassa has good quality amp sims. Caliburn is a Marshall for a more classic rock sound, Creme is a Mesa Boogie.

For clean and crunch, *Archetype Plini* is the best sounding amp sim out there right now. The guys at Neural DSP in general are wizards.


----------



## chocobitz825 (May 29, 2019)

98bpm said:


> [QUOTE
> The areas that I've found to be the hardest to replicate well with VI guitars are:
> everything that repeats a single note very often,
> tremolo picking at speeds other than those that were recorded,
> ...



For me, using Electri6ity was my first jump into VI guitars, as I was using all synths in the past. As enormous as that shift was (for the better), there's clearly some things that I can't pull off with a VI guitar. I do like that Electri6ity gives the ability to control mute layers with your choice of velocity or CC ( I chose CC). Trills felt weird to me with the way they're triggered (starting from the highest note instead of the lowest). Also, I was never able to get the "sympathetic resonance" to work, and that's vital for a good emulation. I think the bends (particularly, the double stops) and vibrato options are quite good. I set my chord speed with CC, but hated that I can't edit the chords the engine recognizes.

Here's a track I did that used two guitars from Electri6ity. I don't know anything about mixing, so go easy on me. I was trying to learn how to use Cubase and ended up creating this 80's synth-pop vibe with all those retro sounds in Cubase. I rounded off the track with the guitars to test them out.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/create-while-studying-rough-mix-2-mp3.20396/][/AUDIOPLUS][/QUOTE]

I have a large collection of VI guitars and honestly eletri6ity is not one I use anymore. It’s just not up to date. Orange tree samples guitars, ample sounds guitar, heavier7Strings and shreddage are all much better and versatile. It takes a lot of keyswitch toggling to get the most realistic sound, but it makes the difference for a lot of it. Even though I have many actual guitars, VI guitars are my choice lately for songwriting when I need to be able to change things quickly without need to re-record guitar parts.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 29, 2019)

kavinsky said:


> don't be too salty man. I'm sorry your to hurt your feelings.
> Amplitube's is a steaming festering piece of banta dump. High gain amps wise
> Especially their Mesa emus.
> 
> I know what I'm talking about. Been doing it for a long while and was able to shootout nearly every offering on the market against their analog counterparts.




I missed this the first time around. That's a very good video.

It would be interesting to hear all the simulators with real-life intervention - like a little room reverb, and possibly some EQ - to match the real amp. But the differences are pretty stark.

You'd think people would clean up after their bantas.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 29, 2019)

Hah. So I didn't miss it the first time around, I just forgot. 




Nick Batzdorf said:


> Very interesting video, but a suggestion: all the emulations are narrower, at a lower level than the real thing, and seem like they need some ambience - i.e. they *all* sound like crap next to the real thing when presented like that! But it's still a very good comparison video, because you can definitely hear the differences.
> 
> One other point: it's the higher stuff especially that makes some guitar/amp simulations sound plastic. War guitar parts like these sell a lot better.


----------



## alanb (May 29, 2019)

Lest we forget . . . Fredrik Thordendal and Mårten Hagström got some pretty decent mileage out of Cubase 6's VST Amp Rack:

https://www.guitarworld.com/features/interview-meshuggah-discuss-their-new-album-koloss

_[walks away slowly, whistling softly to self]_


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (May 29, 2019)

http://www.thecavanproject.com/20-sounds-expensive-guitar-effects/


----------



## chocobitz825 (May 30, 2019)

kavinsky said:


> don't be too salty man. I'm sorry your to hurt your feelings.
> Amplitube's is a steaming festering piece of banta dump. High gain amps wise
> Especially their Mesa emus.
> 
> I know what I'm talking about. Been doing it for a long while and was able to shootout nearly every offering on the market against their analog counterparts.




Amplitude heads are worthless. The cabs, rooms and mics are nice though.


----------



## kavinsky (May 30, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I missed this the first time around. That's a very good video.
> 
> It would be interesting to hear all the simulators with real-life intervention - like a little room reverb, and possibly some EQ - to match the real amp. But the differences are pretty stark.
> 
> You'd think people would clean up after their bantas.


Not sure if I misunderstand, but there's no need for a room simulation, the real head is recorded through a load box into the same IR as the plugins. Its a direct comparison of amps eliminating all the variables as much as possible. 
Of course the real cab would sound a lot more "lively" than an impulse, but the difference would render the comparison pointless


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (May 30, 2019)

neblix said:


> Mercuriall *Reaxis *and the Neural DSP's *Fortin Nameless *are top quality high gain amplifiers (Go Fortin NTS if you want really aggressive modern metal). If you want to go cheap, Kuassa has good quality amp sims. Caliburn is a Marshall for a more classic rock sound, Creme is a Mesa Boogie.
> 
> For clean and crunch, *Archetype Plini* is the best sounding amp sim out there right now. The guys at Neural DSP in general are wizards.




I'd be interested in hearing opinions of the Neural DSP offerings with VI guitars.

Especially Plini and Nameless.

Neural offers trials on all their products.

For bass, their Darkglass Ultra plugins are great

https://neuraldsp.com/products/


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 30, 2019)

kavinsky said:


> Not sure if I misunderstand, but there's no need for a room simulation, the real head is recorded through a load box into the same IR as the plugins. Its a direct comparison of amps eliminating all the variables as much as possible.
> Of course the real cab would sound a lot more "lively" than an impulse, but the difference would render the comparison pointless



The real one is recorded direct? That's interesting, because what I hear right away, even routing the computer audio through my TV's audio rather than real speakers, is that there's some space in the sound and it's wider.

As to the comparison, there are reasons to eliminate the variables and reasons to tweak the sound. The former compares the raw emulations "out of the box"; the latter compares how good and accurate a sound each one is capable of producing after you work on it the way you're always going to in a real production.

In other words, every one of those emulations could be made to sound more like the real thing with very little work. A little EQ and reverb would improve every one of them.

I've had the same thought about a lot of mic shoot-outs, which is an exaggeration of the same issue. If you put mics in the exact same positions and record, sure you get an accurate comparison. But in real life you're going to move each one to the position where it sounds best. (There are other factors with mics, such as off-axis response, etc., but I think you get the point.)


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 30, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The former compares the raw emulations "out of the box"



To be clear, that's also useful, which is why it's a good video! You can hear which ones aren't banta mounds. 

I'm saying it would be good to hear processed versions in addition to that. It would probably be a surprise.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (May 30, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> To be clear, that's also useful, which is why it's a good video! You can hear which ones aren't banta mounds.
> 
> I'm saying it would be good to hear processed versions in addition to that. It would probably be a surprise.




at LEAST a HPF on the Mesa sims.


----------



## Geoff Grace (May 30, 2019)

burp182 said:


> Zoot, please don’t! I think you’re a great source for information and opinions. Most any thread is more valuable with your involvement. And anyone who references the good Captain in their handle is my kind of guy...


Seconded.

_"Mister Zoot Horn Rollo, hit that long lunar note,
And let it float."_
-Don Van Vliet

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Geoff Grace (May 30, 2019)

Well done, @Zoot_Rollo. 

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (May 31, 2019)

Geoff Grace said:


> Well done, @Zoot_Rollo.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff



With big eyed beans,

Thank you.

<visible briefly, only for the select few>


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (May 31, 2019)

anyone check this out?

$50 off intro sale still on - i have the Howard Benson, it's good, but Plini is still my go to.




https://www.stltones.com/pages/stl-tonality-will-putney?utm_source=STL+Tones&utm_campaign=f729c504de-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_05_02_11_40_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_949ede8d45-f729c504de-70246359&mc_cid=f729c504de&mc_eid=38ad7d8ee6


----------



## kavinsky (Jun 6, 2019)




----------



## givemenoughrope (Jun 6, 2019)

Wow, a lot of guitar amp modelers out there!

I’m looking for something that approaches a more wooly, tube-driven, doom metal sound ala Sunno, Earth, Early Sabbath (especially Vol.4), Kyuss and the Melvins Houdini album. Somewhere in there. It might be that closest is a Marshall plexi, V4 or Orange/Matamp emulator (do the second two even exist?) 

I’m also looking for something that sounds heavy but clear ala Neurosis, the last few Swans, etc. I thinking that for this and the above maybe S-Gear is still the way to go? I’m not sure some of these heavy guitar emulators would work since they are tailored to stuff like Meshugah, palm muted death metal, etc. 

The plan is to you the emulator along with a few real amps (old Marshall, Ampeg Reverbrocket, RCA monoblock).


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jun 6, 2019)

givemenoughrope said:


> Wow, a lot of guitar amp modelers out there!
> 
> I’m looking for something that approaches a more wooly, tube-driven, doom metal sound ala Sunno, Earth, Early Sabbath (especially Vol.4), Kyuss and the Melvins Houdini album. Somewhere in there. It might be that closest is a Marshall plexi, V4 or Orange/Matamp emulator (do the second two even exist?)
> 
> ...



Neural Plini - super nice cleans and great crunch and drive.

a little on the prog side, ala Holdsworth - but super versatile.


----------



## oks2024 (Jun 6, 2019)

After spending some time with the NTS, I finally bought Archetype Plini, mainly because it's more versatile, and it's really amazing.
I also tested it with a Revv G4 pedal clone I build a few weeks ago in front of the clean amp, and it sounds so good.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jun 6, 2019)

oks2024 said:


> After spending some time with the NTS, I finally bought Archetype Plini, mainly because it's more versatile, and it's really amazing.
> I also tested it with a Revv G4 pedal clone I build a few weeks ago in front of the clean amp, and it sounds so good.



it is lovely.

i'm recently hooked on Kuassa's new Matchlock Fender sims for Strat and Tele cleans.


----------



## MartinH. (Jun 6, 2019)

This sounds pretty good to me and he goes into details how his fx chain looks. I'm gonna try that plugin soon:


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 6, 2019)

My band used Guitar Rig for both our albums, I personally love it. My seconds favs are Scuffham and the Cubase amps.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jun 6, 2019)

today's fave


----------



## ZenFaced (Jun 6, 2019)

Brainworx and UAD have the best electric guitar amp modeling period.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jun 6, 2019)

ZenFaced said:


> Brainworx and UAD have the best electric guitar amp modeling period.



i only have native VST.

the Chandler is fantastic!

i grabbed many of their Sims in a recent PA blowout.

really like the Megdual.


----------



## oks2024 (Jun 6, 2019)

I have bx_rockrack v1 by Brainworx, and I was not impressed at all. I know I can update to v3 for 29$, but I was so disapointed that I never thought about it.


----------



## WindcryMusic (Jun 6, 2019)

oks2024 said:


> I have bx_rockrack v1 by Brainworx, and I was not impressed at all. I know I can update to v3 for 29$, but I was so disapointed that I never thought about it.



For whatever it may be worth, I had a guitar recording from about three years back where I’d used Guitar Rig 5. At the time I thought it sounded okay, but I recently bought bx_rockrack v3 and tried plugging it into the same track instead, not really expecting all that much of a difference, and bx_rockrack completely blew away GR5, no contest IMO.


----------



## Henu (Jun 7, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> This sounds pretty good to me and he goes into details how his fx chain looks.



The last Q10 on his chain was the _only_ EQ needed in my opinion. He ended up taking all the good parts of the sound away, seriously throwing the baby out with the bathwater with that completely unnecessary processing. That being said, it should indicate the amp (and the pedal) sounded astonishingly good.


----------



## MartinH. (Jun 7, 2019)

Henu said:


> The last Q10 on his chain was the _only_ EQ needed in my opinion. He ended up taking all the good parts of the sound away, seriously throwing the baby out with the bathwater with that completely unnecessary processing. That being said, it should indicate the amp (and the pedal) sounded astonishingly good.



Yeah, I tried replicating the setup (at least up till the cab IR, I don't have all these fancy EQs and effects) and fiddled with my own EQ settings, but in the end I switched to a different IR and ditched most of the EQs again. A couple years ago I bought the "messiah cab" IR pack, that is being demoed here: 



To be honest, I'm not even sure if I'm making any progress at all in finding "my tone". Usually on the next day it all sounds weird and/or I'm liking one of my old attempts better than the new one again, but not well enough to actually use that old one :D. 

I think my next step really has to be picking ref-tracks with parts where not much else other than the guitars are playing and trying to match that as close as possible and see which kind of sound I can get closest with on my setup. Maybe I'll post an A/B comparision between a reference and my take on it here to get some feedback. 


Is there a trick to hearing whether something is double- or quadtracked? I think I can hear when there's a 3rd or 5th guitar in the center but I'm never sure whether it's double or quad on the L/R channels. E.g. on "Jaktens Tid", is that double- or quad tracking? My best guess would be that it's double tracked, but I don't really know.


----------



## Henu (Jun 7, 2019)

Most of the bands just double track their guitars (GT1, GT2, hardpanned L/R), as quad-tracking is not very useful, especially with reamping and VST possibilities nowadays. That L/R- approach counts also for Jaktens Tid, where only two rhythm guitars were used. It's enough to get even that one guitar player to perform his part decently once. :D


----------



## MartinH. (Jun 7, 2019)

Henu said:


> Most of the bands just double track their guitars (GT1, GT2, hardpanned L/R), as quad-tracking is not very useful, especially with reamping and VST possibilities nowadays. That L/R- approach counts also for Jaktens Tid, where only two rhythm guitars were used. It's enough to get even that one guitar player to perform his part decently once. :D



Being a very bad guitar player myself I can relate very much to that last sentence :D. So it comes as a relief that double-tracking is enough . Thanks!


----------



## VgsA (Jun 7, 2019)

The perfect guitar tone is my favourite spirit animal.


----------



## oks2024 (Jun 7, 2019)

@WindcryMusic : Thanks, maybe I'll give it a try at some point, if I need a tone I can't really nail with Archetype.

@MartinH.
From what I've understand so far, in quad tracking you recored your guitars 3 and 4 with a different sound, to add more to the tone of the guitars 1 and 2.
I think the explanations in this video are great, and you can clearly hear the difference.


----------



## MartinH. (Jun 7, 2019)

I noticed there were updates to Emissary and NadIR:
https://www.stltones.com/products/stl-ignite-emissary-plug-in-bundle




oks2024 said:


> @MartinH.
> From what I've understand so far, in quad tracking you recored your guitars 3 and 4 with a different sound, to add more to the tone of the guitars 1 and 2.
> I think the explanations in this video are great, and you can clearly hear the difference.



Thanks! It was interesting to see that on it's own I didn't like the guitar sound all that much, but in the mix with the rest it works. Maybe that's a part I've neglected too much so far? 

For now I've taken two steps back and removed most of the plugins from my reaper project, used the Messiah cab #1 on every guitar track, gave all pretty much the same setup of Emissary, TPA-1, and one of the various tube screamers for most tracks (all but one iirc), and approached the knob tweaking with a mindset of "touch the least amount of knobs possible", so most things are just at 12 o clock. Then I added a dynamic EQ on the guitar bus to tame various frequency bands that get too much buildup depending on what the guitars are playing and added Ozone Elements 8 on the master for the maximizer. Let's see if I still think tomorrow that this is an improvement ^^. Maybe I should just stay out of that tone rabbit hole for a while and focus on composing something with this...


One question about Shreddage 3: does this still have a keyswitch to reset RR position to make quad tracking with multiple kontakt patches work properly? I can't find it in the manual and in S2 you needed to manually trigger that keyswitch to get them "in sync" (or rather the opposite of sync because they need to play _different _RR samples each for the quad tracking to work properly). My impression is that without that manual reset it's not guarantueed that a patch set to guitars 1+2 and a patch set to 3+4 will always play unique samples when triggered simultaneously, if one of them has played somesthing alone before, but maybe I'm doing something wrong?


----------



## ryst (Jun 7, 2019)

oks2024 said:


> @WindcryMusic : Thanks, maybe I'll give it a try at some point, if I need a tone I can't really nail with Archetype.
> 
> @MartinH.
> From what I've understand so far, in quad tracking you recored your guitars 3 and 4 with a different sound, to add more to the tone of the guitars 1 and 2.
> I think the explanations in this video are great, and you can clearly hear the difference.




I do something similar but I make sure each take is a different amp/cab/tone, different guitar, and different chord voicing. It makes an even bigger difference in how big everything sounds.


----------



## MarcusD (Jun 7, 2019)

STL tones is pretty nice. Better off using custom IR files for cabs.


----------



## DS_Joost (Jun 13, 2019)

I like Cubase's build in amp sims... Am I weird now???


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jun 13, 2019)

DS_Joost said:


> I like Cubase's build in amp sims... Am I weird now???




i need to check those.

as a recent Cubase convert, i really like their stock plugins.

the strip is superb.


----------



## DS_Joost (Jun 14, 2019)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> i need to check those.
> 
> as a recent Cubase convert, i really like their stock plugins.
> 
> the strip is superb.



Yes indeed! I like the stock Cubase plugins more than those of other DAWs! Some gems in there man... Frequency, the strip, Quadrafuzz 2... Some are really, really awesome!


----------



## MartinH. (Jun 15, 2019)

Which of these 3 virtual guitar libraries do you find the most convincing for black metal? Don't mind the guitar tone, that'll be a separate post where I'll ask your opinion on a couple variants. I'm interested in your thoughts on the "performance" here.

You'll hear each of the 3 plugins for one third of the mp3.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/virtual-guitars-2019-06-15-001-mp3.20672/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jun 15, 2019)

revisited Thermionik with some Ownhammers.

superb - i've had it for a while, never explored it deeply enough.

with a little work, very nice.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jun 15, 2019)

and Blue Cat Destructor NAILS Clean Tweed, Texas, Brit - amazing.


----------



## Henu (Jun 16, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> most convincing



The second one sounds most natural and real, followed by the third. The third one has too much of humanization in the playing, and the first one had bad gaps between articulations and sounded most machine-like. The sound in itself was already ok for this type of metal- most of the details of the sound is done with EQ's (and other stuff) in the mix, contrary what some people might think.


----------



## MartinH. (Jun 16, 2019)

Henu said:


> The second one sounds most natural and real, followed by the third. The third one has too much of humanization in the playing, and the first one had bad gaps between articulations and sounded most machine-like. The sound in itself was already ok for this type of metal- most of the details of the sound is done with EQ's (and other stuff) in the mix, contrary what some people might think.



Thanks for taking part in this blind-test! I asked a friend too and he also thought #2 sounds the most convincing, I agree with both of you. 

If I remember correctly (forgot to write down which of the half dozen setups I was A/B testing I used for the export) the fx chain is:
-Reaper - EQ
-Tube Skreamer (from Guitar Rig 5)
-Emissary
-Messiah 1 IR loaded in Pulse
-Reaper - EQ

Glad to hear that would work! I've experimented with a bunch of other combinations and I thought Mercurials Metal Zone emulation straight into the 1on-pres8 IR (catharsis cabs) with EQ before and after sounded surprisingly trve cvlt as well, so I'm planning to have that in the tone-shootout blind-test as well :D.

I'm really tempted to buy TSE x50 because it has a Boss HM-2 emulation, which seems to be rather rare in the VST world (correct me if I'm wrong!) and some nice IRs. The amp itself looks good too. Might grab this in a sale.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jun 17, 2019)

Had such a blast with Blue Cat Destructor, i bought the Axiom crossgrade!

Phenomenal on its 'own' and with Ownhammer IRs.


----------



## Mike Fox (Jun 17, 2019)

Henu said:


> Most of the bands just double track their guitars (GT1, GT2, hardpanned L/R), as quad-tracking is not very useful, especially with reamping and VST possibilities nowadays. That L/R- approach counts also for Jaktens Tid, where only two rhythm guitars were used. It's enough to get even that one guitar player to perform his part decently once. :D


Tell that to Misha.


----------



## Henu (Jun 17, 2019)

"*Misha Mansoor* (born October 31, 1984, in Bethesda, Maryland), also known as *Bulb* after the name of his solo project, is the founder and lead guitarist of the progressive metal band Periphery"


That's a thing I don't want to touch even with a 10 foot pole, as these new progressive protools- bands are really a chapter completely of their own.


----------



## MartinH. (Jun 18, 2019)

Henu said:


> That's a thing I don't want to touch even with a 10 foot pole, as these new progressive protools- bands are really a chapter completely of their own.



What do you mean?


----------



## Henu (Jun 18, 2019)

They treat their production like they were making pop music for Eurovision.


----------



## MartinH. (Sep 7, 2019)

Help! I'm slowly but surely going insane over trying to replicate this guitar sound (see attached mp3 and screenshot of SPAN).









I've tried dozens of different distortion pedals and ampsims and cab IRs, but nothing comes close to this sound in the way that I consider "close". In the mp3 at the beginning (first ~third) you can hear one guitar in isolation, that's what I'm struggling the most with. I think the other (deeper) one would be easier for me to approximate, so lets focus on the first one for now. 

Here are my notes/questions so far: 
- I assume it's tremolo picking, but I don't know if it's only one guitar or two.
- Both shreddage 3 and when I play it in myself on my guitar have crazy amounts of pick noise that I can't find a way to get rid of. How do I avoid/remove that and why don't I hear the pick noise in the reference track?
- There is a lot of stuff in the 6k+ frequency range but most of my cab IRs don't let enough of those frequencies through at all. Any idea what kind of speakers/microphones/techniques might have a similar frequency response?
- The graph in the screenshot looks a lot "smoother" than the one for my signal chain ever does. I always have huge spikes of the harmonics sticking out above all else, instead of this nicer and smoother fuzzy curve.
- I don't know what kind of guitar/distortion/amp/cab/whatever could possibly be used here. The only thing I was able to find out about the production is that on their previous album (which sounds almost the same) they kept it fairly minimal in terms of processing. Just some EQ and "basic effects" whatever that means. 
- I believe the riff is this: 




But I'm starting to believe that there's a second guitar just tremolo picking D throughout the riff. Is that possible? There is one peak at the frequency of D that never moves position, so I wouldn't know how to explain that differently.
-It sounds fairly centered to me, but it's not purely mono, how is that side channel information generated? Are these just two guitars panned super slightly left and right and playing something different each? Is anything "doubletracked in mono"? 
-I suspect there is some reverb on but I'm not sure and I struggle to replicate it.
-I tried Ozone8's match EQ to mimic the cab IR, but that never quite worked out. I think I didn't try this with the correct 2 guitars version of the riff yet though, so that's what I'll try next.


I mainly use free stuff for amps and pedals, but I wouldn't rule out buying something more proper if I could verify with a trial that it actually gets me the exact result that I want. But I don't want to go analog. If it can't be replicated digitally I'll have to settle for another sound.


Thanks in advance for your help!


----------



## MarcusD (Sep 7, 2019)

Sounds like 2 guitars playing. 1 is playing the melody and the other is just playing the same note.

EDIT : Been listening on loop for a bit and it sounds like they've recorded a smaller Cab like a 2 x 12 (to get that thinner sound) as well as a 4 x 12.


----------



## Breaker (Sep 8, 2019)

For me it sounds like there is just one guitar playing the riff. That would also be idiomatic for the music style.
It also sounds bit wide, so it is probably double tracked.


----------



## MartinH. (Sep 8, 2019)

MarcusD said:


> Sounds like 2 guitars playing. 1 is playing the melody and the other is just playing the same note.


After replicating that I think you're correct, both guitars panned very slightly off center.



Breaker said:


> For me it sounds like there is just one guitar playing the riff. That would also be idiomatic for the music style.
> It also sounds bit wide, so it is probably double tracked.


I don't think that riff would be practical to play accross two strings on one guitar because I don't think in the tuning they use one of the high strings is tuned to D.




MartinH. said:


> - Both shreddage 3 and when I play it in myself on my guitar have crazy amounts of pick noise that I can't find a way to get rid of. How do I avoid/remove that and why don't I hear the pick noise in the reference track?


I googled a bit and much of it seems to come down to (lack of) technique. Someone recommended to use a "paper pick", and I thought that was a joke, but I still tried picking with a folded piece of paper. That worked surprisingly well and dampened some of the pick noise.
Turning down the tone knob was also recommended which does seem to help too. Believe it or not, I never knew what that thing was good for because I always thought "why would anyone want less treble in their sound?"



MartinH. said:


> - There is a lot of stuff in the 6k+ frequency range but most of my cab IRs don't let enough of those frequencies through at all. Any idea what kind of speakers/microphones/techniques might have a similar frequency response?
> - The graph in the screenshot looks a lot "smoother" than the one for my signal chain ever does. I always have huge spikes of the harmonics sticking out above all else, instead of this nicer and smoother fuzzy curve.


By accident I discovered that adding a delay with sub 1 ms delay time creates this "comb" pattern in the frequency spectrum through phase cancellation (at least I believe that is the reason). So going by what I know about recording guitar cabinets I would deduce that at least two microphones were used and one was slightly further away.



MartinH. said:


> Is anything "doubletracked in mono"?


Due to the phase cancellation that would introduce, I don't think that's the case.



I've looked at a couple of their live gigs and I've seen at least one 5150 amp on stage, so that's the ampsim I'm trying next ( free one from here http://pvamps.blogspot.com/ ). The pedals they use were never clearly in view and the lighting always makes it impossible to even clearly see what color they are.


----------



## shawnsingh (Sep 8, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> By accident I discovered that adding a delay with sub 1 ms delay time creates this "comb" pattern in the frequency spectrum through phase cancellation (at least I believe that is the reason). So going by what I know about recording guitar cabinets I would deduce that at least two microphones were used and one was slightly further away.



Can't listen to the audio right now to check. But the feeling of comb filtering could also come from a delay, phaser, flanger, or chorus, each in slightly different ways. Is it possible it's over it those FX?


----------



## MartinH. (Sep 8, 2019)

shawnsingh said:


> Can't listen to the audio right now to check. But the feeling of comb filtering could also come from a delay, phaser, flanger, or chorus, each in slightly different ways. Is it possible it's over it those FX?



I can't rule it out because I don't have a lot of experience with those, but I doubt it. At least there isn't the kind of "slow wobble" that I would associate with flangers or phasers. 

Let me know what you think when you get a chance to listen to it. I thought it sounds really raw and unremarkable, but it turns out to be super hard to recreate for me. But I feel like I'm learning a lot from my attempts, so I'll keep at it.


----------



## MarcusD (Sep 8, 2019)

It's definitely two guitars playing. You can hear the 1 playing 16ths while the other is playing a melody over it in 16ths, if the guy has 4 arms that'll explain everything. But they've probably just double-tracked the melody and recorded the drone underneath to thicken up the intro. It's not uncommon in metal. They've probably also double-tracked the single note using two different positions, one on a high string and one on a low string. Same note, different place = thicker tone.

Bounce me the DI signal and let me know what AMP sims you're using and i'll try to re-create the tone and send you the preset. Don't forget IF you're trying to get the tone using a sample lib, you won't nail it. Most of the tone comes from the player.


----------



## DSmolken (Sep 8, 2019)

MarcusD said:


> if the guy has 4 arms that'll explain everything.


Not common, but it does happen in this genre.


----------



## Breaker (Sep 8, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> I don't think that riff would be practical to play accross two strings on one guitar because I don't think in the tuning they use one of the high strings is tuned to D.



Sounds like a regular tuning to me, which would make this totally playable. 

But I have been wrong before.


----------



## MartinH. (Sep 9, 2019)

Thanks so much for your help everyone! I believe I have come close enough for now and should switch over back to the other (guitar) tracks and try to get those closer now. I've learned a lot already from this.



MarcusD said:


> But they've probably just double-tracked the melody and recorded the drone underneath to thicken up the intro. It's not uncommon in metal.


I've listened to tons of metal but I'm not super familiar with what's common for "cheating" on the production side except double/quad tracking. I always think of it in terms of "how could this be played live with the number of musicions the band has", which already falls flat in this example because I hear 3 different guitars during many parts but they only play live with two guitars and one bass.




MarcusD said:


> They've probably also double-tracked the single note using two different positions, one on a high string and one on a low string. Same note, different place = thicker tone.


Interesting idea! I never thought of that. In stereo double tracking i could see it working, but in just layering two mono tracks, wouldn't the phase cancelation make it sound worse?




MarcusD said:


> Bounce me the DI signal and let me know what AMP sims you're using and i'll try to re-create the tone and send you the preset. Don't forget IF you're trying to get the tone using a sample lib, you won't nail it. Most of the tone comes from the player.


Thanks so much for the offer! But I think I'm close enough for my purposes now and a big part of what is missing is most likely in my lack of skill as a guitar player and the guitar / gear itself.
Though... I've seen you have a youtube channel - if the sound of the band intrigues you, it might be worth making a video about how to create the sound of their new album. It has gotton 200k+ views in the first week and since they are very popular in their genre but still fairly unknown in the big picture, there seems to be very little content for fairly many search queries. E.g. if you check out the channel of "Dev Gohil" he got way more views than normal for him on a video that hat the name of the band in the title. Can't guarantuee it works, but it could drive some new people to your channel. You can check out their new Album here:



Spoiler












DSmolken said:


> Not common, but it does happen in this genre.


lol!




Breaker said:


> Sounds like a regular tuning to me, which would make this totally playable.
> 
> But I have been wrong before.


Thanks for persisting, I think you're right. I looked deeper into the issue with the pick noise and it essentially seems to be an almost unsolvable problem, at least with realtime audio effects (there was mention of using audio restoration tools to get rid of it, but I don't want to do that). So that made me wonder how there is almost no pick noise on riff from the reference. I think it is because when picking accross two string (highest string played open, tuned to D and, playing the melody on the second highest string) you essentially mask the transient and harmonic from touching the string with the pick by having the other string still ring. The reason I thought "this can't be it" was my bias as a bad guitar player speaking. I thought this seemed too hard to play and indeed I can't play this. It took me playing the riff many times and painstakingly editing together the least bad parts of the various playthroughs to fake one that comes somewhat close. But that's ok, I just need the amp sound for now, when I write my own riffs I can easily play more to my strengths.


The goal for my template is that I want to compose in midi and then later start replacing the guitars piece by piece and I want to minimize "surprises" in terms of sound changing when I record them. Not sure how far that's realistic because shreddage sounds quite different than my guitar and playing, and as it turns out some of the stuff I need is just not replicable with samples, period. But if I can get at least "somewhat close" that would be pretty cool. I can lose myself for hours in tweaking these sounds, which is why I thought it's better for my sanity to just copy a reference track and then leave it like that. Otherwise I'll keep tweaking till my hair turns grey and never compose anything.




Here are the vsts and settings that I used:









If anyone wants to try to replicate that Mgla guitar tone, the "messiah_3.wav" IR is from an IR pack with 4 impulses that I bought years ago. It was called "Messiah Impulse Pack" and I'm not sure it's available anywhere anymore. Just use something else that has a full enough frequency spectrum and compensate with the match-eq. Except for the IR, EQ and Reverb every other plugin is free. I've used SPAN to compare the frequency spectrum and if you don't have a match EQ you could try to shape the sound with lots of bands on e.g. ReaEQ in Reaper. I'm mainly just mentioning this in case anyone finds this via google because it's possibly now the only place on the web where getting the Mgla guitar sound with (mostly) free vst plugins is discussed. Hope it helps someone get started.


p.s.: In the mp3 the riff plays only once, it's the original at the beginning and fades quickly into my version after the first ~1.5 seconds.


----------



## EvilDragon (Sep 10, 2019)

Definitely sounds like 5150 alright. Most common thing in a lot of metal for a long time was Rube Screamer into 5150.

Can you post the link to the full song? Needed for research purposes.


----------



## MartinH. (Sep 10, 2019)

EvilDragon said:


> Definitely sounds like 5150 alright. Most common thing in a lot of metal for a long time was Rube Screamer into 5150.
> 
> Can you post the link to the full song? Needed for research purposes.





It's the 4th song from the new album I linked in the spoiler tag of my previous post, starts at 20:43. Enjoy!





P.s.: I tried the old freeware version v1 of TSE x50 yesterday and I quite like it.


----------



## Breaker (Sep 10, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> Thanks for persisting, I think you're right. I looked deeper into the issue with the pick noise and it essentially seems to be an almost unsolvable problem, at least with realtime audio effects (there was mention of using audio restoration tools to get rid of it, but I don't want to do that). So that made me wonder how there is almost no pick noise on riff from the reference. I think it is because when picking accross two string (highest string played open, tuned to D and, playing the melody on the second highest string) you essentially mask the transient and harmonic from touching the string with the pick by having the other string still ring. The reason I thought "this can't be it" was my bias as a bad guitar player speaking. I thought this seemed too hard to play and indeed I can't play this. It took me playing the riff many times and painstakingly editing together the least bad parts of the various playthroughs to fake one that comes somewhat close. But that's ok, I just need the amp sound for now, when I write my own riffs I can easily play more to my strengths.



I actually would play the D fretted on 5th fret except for the third "chord" (the octave). And I think I can hear a slight change on the pedal D tone on the recording at that point as well.

I haven't touched a guitar in months so probably this would take some practice before I could nail it myself. 20 years ago it would've been a breeze


----------



## EvilDragon (Sep 10, 2019)

Here's the tab.









Mgła - Age Of Excuse Iv (Guitar Pro)


INTERACTIVE TAB by Mgła




tabs.ultimate-guitar.com






All possible on one guitar.  Although, there's some slides in the upper voice which could make it a little tricky, but it shouldn't be impossible. These black metal dudes actually aren't THAT great guitarists. 


EDIT: listened on headphones finally. That intro riff is definitely played on a single guitar, it is panned to hard center, no apparent overdubs.


----------



## MartinH. (Sep 10, 2019)

Breaker said:


> I actually would play the D fretted on 5th fret except for the third "chord" (the octave). And I think I can hear a slight change on the pedal D tone on the recording at that point as well.
> 
> I haven't touched a guitar in months so probably this would take some practice before I could nail it myself. 20 years ago it would've been a breeze



Yeah that could work. I guess I didn't think of that because high strings low frets is my second least favorite part of the fretboard to play on ^^.




EvilDragon said:


> These black metal dudes actually aren't THAT great guitarists.



That's why I thought it has to be two guitars at first . 




EvilDragon said:


> Here's the tab.



Great find! I think that's the most plausible and comfortable way to play it, that was presented so far.




EvilDragon said:


> EDIT: listened on headphones finally. That intro riff is definitely played on a single guitar, it is panned to hard center, no apparent overdubs.



Thanks!


----------



## MauroPantin (Sep 10, 2019)

I use BIAS, mostly. It has an amp match feature that works quite okay. I also have a GSP1101 which is quite old at this point, but you can upload your own IR responses and I like the sound of the emulated Carvin Legacy on that one combined with a custom oversized cab IR that I loaded on it. 

I'm a guitar player, so I can't say how well it reacts to VIs, as I play them in, but I imagine it's probably good with most vanilla guitar techniques. Some things like artificial harmonics usually don't respond well to re-amping, so not sure about using an amp simulator with those, YMMV.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Sep 23, 2019)

the market is moving rapidly

my latest preferred:

Neural

STL Tones

Blue Cat Axiom/Destructor - especially for bass - 1.3 coming soon

Mercuriall

-

still like Amplitube's Fender packs with some tweaking.

-

demoing Line 6 Helix Native, again

getting excellent results with some RTFM action.

-

good times.


honorable mention:

Kuassa Matchlock


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Sep 23, 2019)

speak of the Blue Devil


----------



## shawnsingh (Sep 23, 2019)

Slightly related question - 

Can you recommend any good youtube videos or reading (or your own wisdom) about what is considered a "good distortion tone" especially in the context of guitars, pedals, and high gain amps? I mean of course I can use my own ears and mix referencing, but sometimes I feel surprised when guitarists say "that tone is crap" when I thought it's OK, and I can't really discern what's not likeable about it.


----------



## DSmolken (Sep 23, 2019)

I'm not sure if I'd trust guitarists' opinion of guitar tone completely. They often like it to sound nice by itself, so nice that it takes up the full frequency spectrum and doesn't need the rest of the band. Not saying they're wrong, but take that stuff with a grain of salt, and compare it to the opinions of producers. "That tone is crap" might mean "I can still hear the snare and cymbals", heh.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Sep 23, 2019)

shawnsingh said:


> Slightly related question -
> 
> Can you recommend any good youtube videos or reading (or your own wisdom) about what is considered a "good distortion tone" especially in the context of guitars, pedals, and high gain amps? I mean of course I can use my own ears and mix referencing, but sometimes I feel surprised when guitarists say "that tone is crap" when I thought it's OK, and I can't really discern what's not likeable about it.




here's a great HARDWARE rundown - should give you an idea for heavy toAnZ



all achievable in software


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Sep 23, 2019)

DSmolken said:


> I'm not sure if I'd trust guitarists' opinion of guitar tone completely. They often like it to sound nice by itself, so nice that it takes up the full frequency spectrum and doesn't need the rest of the band. Not saying they're wrong, but take that stuff with a grain of salt, and compare it to the opinions of producers. "That tone is crap" might mean "I can still hear the snare and cymbals", heh.




completely agree.

watch Eddie Kramer stepping through Electric Ladyland tracks.

some of the guitars solo'd sounds weak and uninspiring - but with full mix!

good god - Hendrix was studio masterful by the time that album came around.

and 26.


----------



## MartinH. (Dec 20, 2019)

I have a bass-tone related question and figured here's a good place to ask it. Please listen to the file that I uploaded first (and listen especially for the bass), and then read the text in the spoiler tag.



Spoiler



The first quarter is a VI bass, just for reference, the rest uses an 8 string guitar in drop-E as a "fake bass". The last quarter shows that fake bass exposed, the part in the middle is guitars, bass and a simple drum loop in context, without any mastering. I'm currently only interested in the question whether a real drop-E guitar posing as a base for black metal would be an improvement over a sampled virtual bass, given that it's going to play very monotonous lines and burried deep in the mix anyway.
If this is B(l)assphemy, I'm ready to accept my scolding, but I'm not quite sure I'm ready to buy a real bass yet.


----------



## Eldhrimnir (Dec 20, 2019)

If anyone wants to try to replicate that Mgla guitar tone, the "messiah_3.wav" IR is from an IR pack with 4 impulses that I bought years ago. It was called "Messiah Impulse Pack" and I'm not sure it's available anywhere anymore. Just use something else that has a full enough frequency spectrum and compensate with the match-eq. Except for the IR, EQ and Reverb every other plugin is free. I've used SPAN to compare the frequency spectrum and if you don't have a match EQ you could try to shape the sound with lots of bands on e.g. ReaEQ in Reaper. I'm mainly just mentioning this in case anyone finds this via google because it's possibly now the only place on the web where getting the Mgla guitar sound with (mostly) free vst plugins is discussed. Hope it helps someone get started.


p.s.: In the mp3 the riff plays only once, it's the original at the beginning and fades quickly into my version after the first ~1.5 seconds.
[/QUOTE]

Cool. Exercises in Futility is one of the greatest albums to come out in the last 15 years. My 2 cents would be to keep it rather simple and go with TSE X50 and/or Fortin Nameless, in conjunction with a tube screamer or similar. Those are the two of the best ITB high gain amps to this date IMO. If you can run the old (and free) TSE X30 (which is only 32 bit), I would try that too...in some regards, esp tremolo picking like in your example, it really shines. But remember that the cab IR is half of the sound.


----------



## MartinH. (Dec 20, 2019)

Eldhrimnir said:


> Cool. Exercises in Futility is one of the greatest albums to come out in the last 15 years. My 2 cents would be to keep it rather simple and go with TSE X50 and/or Fortin Nameless, in conjunction with a tube screamer or similar. Those are the two of the best ITB high gain amps to this date IMO. If you can run the old (and free) TSE X30 (which is only 32 bit), I would try that too...in some regards, esp tremolo picking like in your example, it really shines. But remember that the cab IR is half of the sound.



Thanks for the recommendation! I'm glad to hear that because I bought x50 in the black friday sale . 

The last tone I tried to clone was this one. I might post some questions about it along with an example of how far I've gotten after I put a couple more hours into it. This is the reftrack that I picked (the youtube channel is well worth checking out if anyone likes this kind of stuff, imho the guy is _really _good):



But I'll return to my black metal template eventually and will post an update here too. I think the next iteration should feature performed guitars since ultimately I want to play the parts in myself.


----------



## MartinH. (Dec 26, 2019)

Eldhrimnir said:


> Cool. Exercises in Futility is one of the greatest albums to come out in the last 15 years. My 2 cents would be to keep it rather simple and go with TSE X50 and/or Fortin Nameless, in conjunction with a tube screamer or similar. Those are the two of the best ITB high gain amps to this date IMO. If you can run the old (and free) TSE X30 (which is only 32 bit), I would try that too...in some regards, esp tremolo picking like in your example, it really shines. But remember that the cab IR is half of the sound.



I spent another couple of hours down that rabbithole and this is where I'm currently at. It starts with the original and switches back and forth between my mockup (which still is mostly VI based, with the exception of the rythm guitar that only plays powerchords because the VI doesn't have enough round robins to sell that).

Let me know what you think!


----------



## Tim_Wells (Dec 26, 2019)

DSmolken said:


> I'm not sure if I'd trust guitarists' opinion of guitar tone completely. They often like it to sound nice by itself, so nice that it takes up the full frequency spectrum and doesn't need the rest of the band. Not saying they're wrong, but take that stuff with a grain of salt, and compare it to the opinions of producers. "That tone is crap" might mean "I can still hear the snare and cymbals", heh.


Yeah, that's an excellent point. As a guitar-centric musician I'm sure I'm guilty of what you describe. Guitars are so adept at dominating huge chunks of the frequency spectrum. During the past 50 years, how many small bands and solo musicians have earned their bread and butter with guitars as their primary tool?


----------



## Ckmovidest (Sep 11, 2020)

I there. Sorry to dig this old topic. I have a Mooer GE200 and have loaded the Messiah3 to get that Mgla tone, but it's hard to get there. Anyone with a GE200 that could get that tone? Buy the way, should I use a Mesa Boogie or Peavey (EVH) model?
Thank you in advance


----------

