# Anyone here who is NOT fluent at the keyboard or theory?



## Sopranos (Nov 20, 2010)

I'm curious how many, if any, are making music who are not fluent at piano/keyboard or know much theory (if any)? Meaning, are there any others like me who play/draw in notes simply by ear with no real theory or piano skill whatsoever?

I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't study theory or cut corners or simply look for an easy way out. I just wonder if good music can be made without having "real" chord progressions and such driven by theory.

If it sounds good do you think the general population knows if you are not within the scale of a key (and I'm not referring to vocals)?

Just curious if everyone on here are pro piano/keys gurus or if there are any other mere mortals?

Thoughts?


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## Hal (Nov 20, 2010)

a lot are not pianists you could be guitarist violinist or a bit of all..you always have the possibility of inserting note for note ,quantising,re-editing . well i used to play a lot of classical piano and perform with rock bands but when ur alone in ur studio its you and you sequencer u do whatever nondestructively i wont say that your technique and piano level counts in film scoring.
what counts is what u write generaly for the orchestra or how you use ur tools and samples

but not knowing keyboard at all,that will not be fun ! however u can always make trance music :D


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## hbuus (Nov 20, 2010)

I'm in the same boat as you, Sopranos.
I can't play the keyboard very well, and I know very little theory (I have read Adler a couple of times, though).
Sadly, I think it's necessary to know theory to make good orchestral music.
Therefore I'm in the proces of determining what exactly to do with myself! 
Either I give up completely and focus on developing other interests where I know I am gifted, or...well, or I try to have fun making whatever music I can given my current level of expertise.
Not saying I cannot learn, of course, but when you're dealing with an area where you are not specially gifted, learning can be hard and frustrating.
That is my experience anyway.
Hope it doesn't discourage you from making music - this is just me.

Best,
Henrik


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## synergy543 (Nov 20, 2010)

It helps to have a musical sense, and you don't have to be a player to have this, but it sure helps. By musical sense, I mean a feel for the flow and balance of a line, and and understanding of the music being expressed (dynamics, harmony, everything). You're trying to be a conductor essentially and as Berstein said, if you don't completely understand every note in the score, you have no right to stand on the podium or play sampled orchestral sounds [updated by editor].

Being a player helps you to understand the music better. Its just a different level of literacy from that of a listener. When you can't read fluently, you really are handicapped. With some practice, you can improve you skill level and it will make a dramatic difference. By also playing the music, you'll gain a depth of understanding you couldn't achieve as easily before in terms of expression and execution. So any effort you put in to learning to play an instrument will be tremendously useful. And any instrument is helpful. All good orchestral players must have quite a good musical sense otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to play. Study those links and CDs I posted in the other thread Henrik.


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## hbuus (Nov 20, 2010)

synergy543 @ Sat Nov 20 said:


> Study those links and CDs I posted in the other thread Henrik.



I will - I'm hoping things will look at bit more manageable for me afterwards.

Sopranos, the thread Greg is talking about is this one:
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18744

Best,
Henrik


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## rgames (Nov 20, 2010)

Of course, there are no absolutes. However, I'd say most composers have decent keyboard chops. Not all, but I'd say most.

However, I think all composers are proficient on *some* instrument.

rgames


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## Ed (Nov 20, 2010)

Sopranos @ Sat Nov 20 said:


> I'm curious how many, if any, are making music who are not fluent at piano/keyboard or know much theory (if any)? Meaning, are there any others like me who play/draw in notes simply by ear with no real theory or piano skill whatsoever?



Yes, me. All i know about music is from screwing around with samples and reading and listening to people since about 2002. I can read music, in the sense that if someone says C D# A I know which piano key that that is - after thinking for a bit - but thats about it.

I can play stuff into the computer fairly competently, but I can certainly not a musician and could never just play something and if I did it would sound stupid.

Dont let it stop you though, I have been doing pretty well for myself recently...

You can hear some of my http://edwardbradshawmusic.squarespace.com/audio-showreel/ (stupid music here).


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## RiffWraith (Nov 20, 2010)

I am _really_ not fluent in keyboard, and my chops might as well be pork chops, but I am _really_ fluent in theory, which is how (I guess) I get away with it. If I can't play what I hear, I just: a) play it note by note, with one or two fingers at a very slow tempo, b) draw MIDI notes, c) a combination of the two.

There are plenty of pro composers who have little to no keyboard chops. Bear in mind tho, these guys use top-notch orchestrators, which helps more than just a little.

Cheers.


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## JJP (Nov 20, 2010)

My keyboard chops are terrible. I do play in single lines and chords with no problem (drawing them with a mouse is too slow), but I'd never consider myself a keyboard player. For tricky stuff that I want to play, I often go to my mallet controller because I'm a percussionist and am fluent with four mallets.

However, I work as an arranger, orchestrator, and transcriber so I do have solid "theory" skills. Keep in mind that advanced music theory does go beyond your typical "real" chord progressions, and is more about understanding how music works and why it sounds the way it does. It's everything from "What combination of instruments and pitches create that texture?" to understanding how the variations in rhythm, tempo, pitch, cultural relevance, and timbre make a particular melody tug at your heartstrings.


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## stonzthro (Nov 20, 2010)

Keyboard chops are useful, but not necessary. And as mentioned, it is the kind of thing you can pick up with practice. While most classical composers were usually good pianists, I don't think that is necessarily so anymore. I work with 10 other composers and only 3 are pianists and you would never really be able to pick them out by their music.

As Jeff Rona often says - the sequencer is my instrument.

As for theory, if you can play any instrument, you might try taking an interest in jazz - I'd bet that is the way most have really learned theory. 

As a side note, judging by the way many scores are currently going, you really don't need much theory - parallel minor chords and Atmosphere seems to get most about 90% there...


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## Lex (Nov 20, 2010)

Guess me too...I can play single lines with my right hand on keyboard..I can play guitar with moderate skill...can't read or write anymore...don't know anything about composing theory and read and learned as much as I could by myself about orchestration theory.

aLex


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## gsilbers (Nov 20, 2010)

you could take intro keyboard clases. youll be up and running with the basics. im guessing there are some sort of comunity college or somehting similar... also tutors but i feel more pressure to learn in a class with hard deadlines... but whatever really as long as u do keyboard which also teach theory as well. 

as for wrong there isnt in music, its just that u need to kknow what u are doing thats it.


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## Pzy-Clone (Nov 20, 2010)

hm, honestly i dont believe u need to "know what u are doing" just for the sake of knowing it. 

As i see it, theory and instrumental skills are there to facilitate your compositional process: it would be reasonable to assume translating your ideas and intentions will be easier with some skills in the above mentioned ereas, altho i think it is perfectly possible to develop a valid musical language using only experience and intuition alone.

No wrongs or rights offcourse imo, whatever works for u is the right way.

Altho i would think it can be a daunting task to write good music without any sort of established knowledge or instrumental capacity ...but im sure there are people doing just that anyway.

Mostly i think its a matter of the time involved, you can possibly stumble upon some solution and great results simply by doing it enough, but i would think learning a few basic instrumental skills and music theory would speed up things quite substantially.

Personally i think im adequate at the keyboard to get me where i want to go, the same for music theory. But i never focus on that when i write, they are passive tools to fascilitate my intentions with as little interuption and conscious decision as possible.

I mean , usualy i first write something mentaly, when im half asleep ( or even in my sleep sometimes) and such, and work out stuff roughly before i enter my DAW, it does not always work out as i had anticipated,but for me the main motivation is to be able to communicate what i want as precisely and fast as possible...but not having the capacity to have any sort of creative process without hearing things first note by note, well...i dunno..sounds very very time consuming to me?

I think it would be wise to concentrate your learning process, by whichever means you decide to do so...in a small compacted timeframe (or several) instead of having to re-invent the wheel all over again and again and again ?

Altho...from a mock-up perspective i dont think entering things directly into the midi editor is such a bad idea, in fact do that 50% percent of the time instead of playing it live, becouse i dont think a string section or brass ensemble is timed realistically when played live at a keyboard: the timing becomes so uniform and often sounds like a guy just playing it live, the internal timing differences for the section should already be present in the samples themselves.

Its odd to hear 50 string players all make the same human touches and errors at the exact same time, a well programmed midi part with some CG random timing fluxuation is more logical to me.....but for exposed soloist parts or some chromatic keys it makes alot more sense to play it live, for me at least.


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## JJP (Nov 20, 2010)

stonzthro @ Sat Nov 20 said:


> As Jeff Rona often says - the sequencer is my instrument.


If that were my case, I never would have become a musician. People were a big part of the draw for me. I've always loved the community aspect of being part of an ensemble and the physical joy of playing an instrument.

Sitting alone punching stuff into a computer? That's a necessary evil of our times, but hardly a motivator for me to create music. People motivate me, not machines.


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## rgames (Nov 20, 2010)

Sopranos @ Sat Nov 20 said:


> I guess my question is.... are there "wrong" chord progressions or chords or notes?


Of course not, but only because there are many opinions on what is "wrong".

That's where theory helps out: if you're writing music for a client, then he may expect something that sounds a certain way (e.g. traditional Western harmony). Especially if you're working to deadlines, knowing the "tricks" associated with that style helps you move more quickly.

But if you're working strictly from what you hear in your head, then it doesn't really matter. Go with what sounds right to you.

rgames


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## juniorhifikit (Nov 26, 2010)

Coming from a rock n roll background, my jazz harmony theory is kind of weak (though I'm always trying to soak up as much as possible), and being a guitar player, my keyboard chops are laughable. But, this doesn't stop me from working as a composer, it only slows me down in certain genres.

I don't often get calls to do orchestral or big band scores. But when it comes up, I love the challenge (as long as the deadline isn't too tight), and learn something new each time.


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## JPQ (Nov 28, 2010)

I mainly use ears to compose. actually i maybe can play some my ideas but when i need velocity data i must edit in data Logic. and still if i want notes i must edit data and i mean to realworld values and this is thing what i cannot get work yet i mean quantizing is not suitable i must change values what i mean not closest possible values...etc...


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