# Kids, wife, house repairs etc... How do you find time and energy to compose?



## lee (Sep 3, 2012)

Right now I´m in the middle of a phase in life, where my three daughters (7 months, 4 years and 6 years old) and my house gets almost all attention (well my wife gets what´s left :D ). I think this is how it´s supposed to be, at least about my kids. And I want to be present in their lives.

I´m a little bit frustrated though. Not much composing or gigs done.. So I´m wondering how other people in similiar situations are handling this?

I dont have a job that involves writing music, so whatever I write, I do in my spare time. I love my job though, and have actually chosen not to have my passion (music) as my job. Which I guess has it´s pros and cons.

Enough rambling.


----------



## chimuelo (Sep 3, 2012)

I play the same crap music six nights a week and we sound really good as most use the same gear that was used yeas ago, and yes a real drummer from the endangered species.
I find that chugging vast quantities of Jagermeister, enables me short term memory loss. So when I get home I can play what I like to and easily forget the monotony.

SInce it never rains here and I don't drink at the job, I do it on way home.
My particular addplications and hardware are modular based, which means I am a routing zealot, so bad, that I actually emptied my windshield washer wiper fluid containter since it never rains in Las Vegas, then re routed the hose that supplies the " soapy " water to clean the windows, but now the container has Jagermeister in it, and it comes out through my ashtray.
I simply twist the windshield wiper function and fill a small schnifter with Jager. Chug a few of those and by the time I hit home, I am ready to practice and have already forgotten the evenings events.


----------



## Tatu (Sep 3, 2012)

Yeah, isn't it great when live up to our cultural expectations? 

Now you'll just have to beat this new crisis to get the time that you need for - ultimately - yourself. 

Perhaps you should consider the house project as small break from writing music, as a battery charge time, and as a happy-family-time? Once they're done, just forget they exist and lock yourself to the basement and power that DAW up!

I too had a sort of a crisis once, though much, much smaller in scale (no children, no house projects etc.). It seemed like all my time went to spending/giving time with/to other people and my lady-friend... Then I just bought an apartment of my own and strapped myself in front of the computer there. Problem solved.


----------



## lee (Sep 3, 2012)

How did you know my daw was in the basement? 

Yeah, I know this wont last forever. A composing crisis it is, but quite the opposite when it comes to family. Your words, "a happy family time", actually sound pretty good. Gotta stop comparing myself to my (musically) productive younger years.


----------



## Tatu (Sep 3, 2012)

lee @ Mon Sep 03 said:


> How did you know my daw was in the basement?



Well.. aren't we all 



lee @ Mon Sep 03 said:


> Yeah, I know this wont last forever. A composing crisis it is, but quite the opposite when it comes to family. Your words, "a happy family time", actually sound pretty good. Gotta stop comparing myself to my (musically) productive younger years.



Yeah, life keeps changing and sometimes we need to sacrifice things. Music won't run away and disappear even if you spend a little more time with your family for a while. And you know, it might be a big loss to and something you'd never get back, if you'd spend every possible minute in your basement while your kids grow up and your wife spends all your money 

When I was younger, I sacrificed things so I can spend more time with my music... now, as I'm getting older, I've started to do the opposite. After all, for me it's a hobby that I love, but there are other things in life.

EDIT: Or you could just try that thing with jäegermaister :D


----------



## Darthmorphling (Sep 3, 2012)

Music is one of those weird hobbies. It's hard to schedule inspiration. I realize that lots of people here have regularly scheduled times for composing music, but deadlines help in that respect.

My wife is not a creative person and she could never understand why I couldn't just schedule guitar time for a certain day and/or time each week. When I tried that I always felt like I was under pressure to cram as much hobby time as I could into that time and it ultimately never worked. I now tend to just wait until every one of my kids, all five, and my wife go to bed. This has worked much better as I know that there is not really a time limit and I don't feel pressured to "have fun".

I have also started doing my theory reading during my lunch break as I found myself unable to really focus on learning at night. One other thing is that I have really cut back on TV time. It all comes down to utilizing the time you do have in the most efficient manner possible.

I will tell you that there is nothing wrong with scheduling time for yourself, as long as you don't do it at the expense of your family. Everyone needs alone time and when you can still do things for yourself, it makes you better able to focus on your family when it is their time.

Now if I could only find a way to produce more cash for gear. That is something I have yet to figure out.


----------



## wst3 (Sep 3, 2012)

I'm in a similar boat - I have a day gig I enjoy, the kids are 6, 8, and 10 (so I've been in the boat a bit longer<G>), a wife I love, and a house that always seems to need something. 

All of these things have conspired to severely cramp my musical activities.

On the plus side, my wife is very supportive, within the confines of everything else.

When we bought the house the plan was to rebuild my studio (better than the last version) in half the basement. But that requires time and money, and we don't have either at the moment.

So I have the DAW set up in a corner of the finished half of the basement, and I learn to live with that. (I can use the rest of the basement for recording projects when I need to.)

I've figured out that for me, for now, the family is more important than either the day gig or the music. It won't last forever (heck, as far as I can tell the kids were 1, 3, and 5 only yesterday!!)

That's not to say I don't get really frustrated. About a month ago I installed Presonus Studio One. It would not work on the current system because the video card wasn't up to snuff. Sounds simple eh?

Well the new video card had a serious problem with the old drivers (at least that's how it appeared), so I reinstalled Windows from scratch, and everything works perfectly now.

EXCEPT that it took a month to do what would have been at most a couple of days when I was single. Between the job, the house, the family, and a vacation it took me four weeks to reinstall the OS and apps. INSANE!!!

So I say the "Serenity Prayer" a lot. It really isn't so much that I can't control some of these circumstances, I suppose I could if I so desired.

But we'll have the kids around for only a short time, so I'm going to focus on that aspect of my life for a while.

On the plus side, when the occasional project comes along there are no complaints when I lock myself in the basement for a couple of days. For my part I try not to let that happen every week, or even every month.

The part that gets the shortest end of the deal is practice and study. And that can be just as frustrating! In fact I have been working really hard to make time, at the end of the day, for practice. I haven't gotten it down pat yet, but I am getting better. The bride and I meet in the living room around 10pm, we watch one of our favorite shows, then she wanders off to bed and I practice. Well, that's the plan, some nights I am just too fried to even do that.

All of this rambling to let you know you are not alone - there are many of us who choose to keep music as an avocation, and we have tons of challenges fitting it in. And we know we'd get further if we could raise the priority.

No solutions I'm afraid, but I will be watching the thread to see if anyone else has one...


----------



## cc64 (Sep 3, 2012)

Ha ha, just read this topic as i just dragged myself in the studio(downtown, not in my basement) on labor day vacation.

Just got the call last week to start on an animation series. The deadlines are insane as usual ; ) 

On this particular show the producers want the music to replace voice-talent, foley, SFX... Wich is a lot of fun and a big challenge. Catch is, i just got back from vacation and it's tough enough to get out of "cocktail around the pool" mode, add to that we're building a 3 bedroom, 1 bathroom and living room basement(appr. 1800 sq feet) so i have electricians, plumbers and carpenters asking me 10 questions per-minute from 7am to 4 pm. On friday i managed to write a few bars and the electricians flipped THE breaker!!! Arghhh, so i decided i would start work once the crew is gone.

Problem is, at 4:30 pm the night shift comes back from school... Did i mention i have a 4,6 and 8 year old ; )

Enough procrastinating with you fine gents. At least, since HZ himself admitted to procrastinating on this very list i feel i'm in very good company and feel a little less guilty/incompetent.

Best,

Claude


----------



## rgames (Sep 3, 2012)

Easiest approach is simply to ignore your wife, kids, and house


----------



## lee (Sep 3, 2012)

Haha, thanks for sharing guys! Its nice to read about similar lives, frustrations and blessings (kids, wife, houses, studios etc). Family is indeed important. (rgames! :lol: )

I wish I could write music when the wife and kids were sleeping but I'm afraid I'm asleep by then too.

I think I'll try scheduling some time..


----------



## Darthmorphling (Sep 3, 2012)

lee @ Mon Sep 03 said:


> Haha, thanks for sharing guys! Its nice to read about similar lives, frustrations and blessings (kids, wife, houses, studios etc). Family is indeed important. (rgames! :lol: )
> 
> I wish I could write music when the wife and kids were sleeping but I'm afraid I'm asleep by then too.
> 
> I think I'll try scheduling some time..



My wife usually goes to sleep around 9:30 and I'm an 11:30 or so guy. My oldest daughter is usually still up but she is 11 now and has an independent spirit.

I would also love to have an isolated studio. my current setup is in a corner of the living room :( 

What's really nice is that we have a silent reading time at our house as the kids have to read for school anyway. My wife and I alternate days reading to the youngest so there is study time for me on alternating days.

What sucks though is I am a huge fan of movies, which is why I also love film music. Unfortunately i dont have time for both.


----------



## dcoscina (Sep 3, 2012)

I find myself in the same boat after I got married and my wife took sick with a chronic condition. I have felt the clock ticking away and not getting music done.

I recently got promoted to manager so whatever time I had before to compose has evaporated with new responsibilities. 

I will say that I have found Sibelius a saving grace. The program not the composer although I enjoy his works too.

Whereas with a DAW you spends lot of time composing and producing with a notation program I just chip away at several compositions at a time. No mixing bullshit nor loading samples. The program runs well on my aged MacBook Suomi can compose almost anywhere. Which is why I'm pissed at Avid because this software has become my salvation. I have a couple requests to compose for a local orchestra so this is what I rely on day in and day out.


----------



## Darthmorphling (Sep 3, 2012)

dcoscina @ Mon Sep 03 said:


> I find myself in the same boat after I got married and my wife took sick with a chronic condition. I have felt the clock ticking away and not getting music done.
> 
> I recently got promoted to manager so whatever time I had before to compose has evaporated with new responsibilities.
> 
> ...



I hope to one day, soon, be able to compose in notation. Hence the need for study time. I have GarageBand for iPad and sometimes instead of reading during lunch, I noodle some simple melodies with it. I then practice putting chords to the melody using Musescore on my work machine. Cool way to practice and a good mental break from from 5th graders.


----------



## dcoscina (Sep 3, 2012)

Hey Darth, to be quite honest, I think Sibelius actually promotes better music theory. There is a virtual keyboard to get you started and you can input notes via a MIDI controller as well. I did formally study music but my sight reading was always pretty bad. Spending a lot of time in Sibelius has dramatically improved my music reading skills. 

Also, it promotes more detailed construction of music. If the end goal is to get someone to play the music, it's vastly superior to plunking down notes in a DAW when you're writing for flute or some wind instrument as you will be more keen to phrasing and breath points. I also find it helps with my counterpoint. I cannot stand looking at a bunch of tied whole notes, so it forces me to create more flowing dynamic parts. It's also a drag for a real musician to just play a lot of long notes. I'm orchestras just loved playing late John Barry works for this reason. 

I like its interface because I can chip away at music whenever and wherever. I'm probably one of the few who wouldn't mind an iPad app version of Sibelius. 

Anyhow, I think this is a good topic. I'm slightly heartened to see that there are other semi pro guys here whose main job isn't music and who must arrange time to dedicate towards this craft. To me, music is like water or oxygen. I need it. It helps my soul. Luckily, my wife understands the importance of music in my life and is my biggest supporter. 

I always contend I'm like Charlie Ives. Doing a day job that is totally removed from music and composing pieces that I want to hear and the way I like it to sound by night. Not that I'm going to be regarded as an innovator like he has been mind you....


----------



## Darthmorphling (Sep 3, 2012)

It was a great accomplishment for me when I wrote my first chordal accompaniment to a melody without using any keyboard, virtual or real, to help me. My sight reading has improved tremendously since April, when I started taking theory and sight reading seriously. Unfortunately I do not have the skills necessar, yet, to write melodies on "paper" only.


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira (Sep 3, 2012)

1. do not marry

2. do not have kids

simple


----------



## dpasdernick (Sep 3, 2012)

Gabriel Oliveira @ Mon Sep 03 said:


> 1. do not marry
> 
> 2. do not have kids
> 
> simple



You forgot #3... don't spend time hanging out on music forums.


----------



## NYC Composer (Sep 3, 2012)

Up to a few years ago, I was working 60 hr weeks writing music for commercials. Between the wife, the dog, the kid, constant business development, etc., I took on very few "creative" projects (i.e., projects done just for the sake of art of art or personal enjoyment) because I just didn't have the energy.

A friend once said "it's hard to work in the trenches all day and be Michaelangelo at night". I agree, yet there are people with more energy, drive or passion than I have who manage to do just that. That's where I think the dividing line is-how badly do you need to create/achieve? If it's a burning need, you'll find the time somehow.


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira (Sep 3, 2012)

dpasdernick @ Mon Sep 03 said:


> You forgot #3... don't spend time hanging out on music forums.



naaah, VI Control is great! a lot of good information and teachings


----------



## dcoscina (Sep 4, 2012)

Gabriel Oliveira @ Mon Sep 03 said:


> 1. do not marry
> 
> 2. do not have kids
> 
> simple



Spoken from someone with a 20 year old perspective no doubt.


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira (Sep 4, 2012)

dcoscina @ Tue Sep 04 said:


> Spoken from someone with a 20 year old perspective no doubt.



is there any problem in not want to have kids or marry? 

i wanna live for music only (yep, sounds romantic, so what?  )


----------



## Darthmorphling (Sep 4, 2012)

There is nothing with not having kids or getting married. In my profession I have seen too many unwanted kids and their parents who barely give a crap about them.

Not to say that you would be that kind of person, but you should only have kids if you are absolutely sure that you want them. That being said, I only wanted two kids and I now have five. People's minds can change.

To be honest there are times, like yesterday, actually where I thought it would be nice to not be a parent sometimes :D


----------



## guydoingmusic (Sep 4, 2012)

Rick James - "Cocaine is a hell of a drug!"


----------



## Nostradamus (Sep 9, 2012)

rgames @ Mon Sep 03 said:


> Easiest approach is simply to ignore your wife, kids, and house



8) ... good point.


----------



## Daryl (Sep 9, 2012)

You just have to be disciplined, and you also need a partner who understands why you need to be absent from family duties from time to time.

Make sure that you get out of bed at a reasonable time. Work a proper length day. No stupid all-nighters. Turn down work with insane deadlines. Join the human race.

If you are unable to work proper hours and are unable to turn down silly offers of work, you have two options:

1) Don't try to become a composer, thus removing temptation.
2) Don't have children.

D


----------



## dcoscina (Sep 9, 2012)

Gabriel Oliveira @ Tue Sep 04 said:


> dcoscina @ Tue Sep 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Spoken from someone with a 20 year old perspective no doubt.
> ...



No there is no problem with that. I felt the same way up until my 30s when I wanted more out of life. Curiously, once I met my wife I composed two full length concert works, one that was judged by John Corigliano and which won me a nice little bit of cash. I also worked with some Holllywood composers on a couple projects. Yeah, I had more time to compose before I had a family but I don't think it was as productive. So its all a matter of perspective.


----------



## Niah (Sep 9, 2012)

"To catch a husband is an art; to hold him is a job."


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Sep 9, 2012)

There are only so many ways to divide 24 hours. I have always had to balance my life between my work, which is and has always been exclusively music, and my wife and daughter.

If you have a wife, kids, AND a job that is not related to music, the music must suffer because if it is not your job, it simply should not be as important to you as the other stuff. Music is a selfish craft.

I get called "elitist"and other names for saying there is a big difference between pros and non-pros but realistically it is just a fact. If you don't accept that you either: lose your job; lose your wife and possibly custody of your kids; end up in the hospital suffering from exhaustion.

You are not Superman. You cannot be a great employee, AND a great husband, AND a great father, AND do great composing in meaningful amounts at the same time in the modern world. It will have to wait for another time in your life when the kids are grown, etc. unless you are willing to prioritize your job and family lower, which I do not recommend.


----------



## Niah (Sep 9, 2012)

I must admit I feel a bit confused by your post Jay. I say this because you are a professional composer indeed, but at the same time your job also involves being an online coordinator for EW, writing columns for magazines, teaching logic (you even wrote a book about it), etc. These are all music related stuff for sure but not related to composing music per se, which is what is being discussed here. According with what you have expressed in your post wouldn't these multiple tasks have a negative impact in your life as a composer?


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Sep 9, 2012)

Niah @ Sun Sep 09 said:


> I must admit I feel a bit confused by your post Jay. I say this because you are a professional composer indeed, but at the same time your job also involves being an online coordinator for EW, writing columns for magazines, teaching logic (you even wrote a book about it), etc. These are all music related stuff for sure but not related to composing music per se, which is what is being discussed here. According with what you have expressed in your post wouldn't these multiple tasks have a negative impact in your life as a composer?



Yes, but a lot of of this I didn't start doing until my daughter was grown and out of the house, and since it is mostly work I do from home, it allows me to spend time with my wife of 36 years AND write at least some music nearly every day. Doing the EW stuff usually takes at most a couple of hours daily in toto, writing the 3 columns an average of 4-6 hours a month, etc.
 
But if I were to get another TV series or 2 or all of a a sudden get several films, I would have to curtail some of the other stuff I do, to do it ll well. It would be a nice problem to have to solve 

Back in the day, I did turn down some lucrative musical director road gigs because it would have taken me out of town and away from my family for too long. 

You make choices.Nobody gets it all.


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira (Sep 9, 2012)

dcoscina @ Sun Sep 09 said:


> No there is no problem with that. I felt the same way up until my 30s when I wanted more out of life...



"more out of life" to you maybe isn't the same thing to me... when I'm 35 we'll talk about it o-[][]-o


----------



## wst3 (Sep 9, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Sep 09 said:


> You make choices.Nobody gets it all.



This is wisdom!

The key is to understand it, not just know it.... I fall down on that count from time to time!


----------



## Gusfmm (Sep 9, 2012)

Gabriel Oliveira @ Sun Sep 09 said:


> "more out of life" to you maybe isn't the same thing to me... when I'm 35 we'll talk about it o-[][]-o



^^ That is a great idea, as your personal perspective of life will change dramatically, I guarantee it, over the next 10 years. Write this down on a piece of paper and put it in your wallet so that you don't forget. :wink:


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira (Sep 9, 2012)

Gusfmm @ Sun Sep 09 said:


> ^^ That is a great idea, as your personal perspective of life will change dramatically, I guarantee it, over the next 10 years. Write this down on a piece of paper and put it in your wallet so that you don't forget. :wink:



Pressed PrtScn!


----------



## Darthmorphling (Sep 9, 2012)

Gabriel Oliveira @ Sun Sep 09 said:


> dcoscina @ Sun Sep 09 said:
> 
> 
> > No there is no problem with that. I felt the same way up until my 30s when I wanted more out of life...
> ...



Never do anything out of a sense of it being expected. My wife and I had our first child after being married for three years. We were always being asked when we were going to have kids. It was the best thing we could have done. When we decided to have kids we were completely ready for it. At least as ready as you can be for your first kid anyway!

I have seen too many unwanted kids come into my classroom and it is the saddest thing. 

Enjoy your youth and the beginnings of your career. If you change your mind later that is great and if you don't that's great too.


----------



## lee (Sep 10, 2012)

Nice to see this topic is still being discussed!

I'm actually appreciating all your wisdom, be it from older or younger people. Life is truly about your priorities, and that changes during different phases in life.

I and others who have chosen the non pro path of composing simply shouldnt compare our productivity to pros or our younger days when priorities were different.


----------



## Niah (Sep 10, 2012)

@Gabriel Oliveira:

Here's your inspiration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arSH063yDvg

People are right, your perspective on life will change but not necessarily towards one direction. (Meaning towards marriage or kids.) What needs to happen more than anything is that you find that special person, if not your thoughts about not getting married and not building a family will be even stronger. I know people in their 40's, 50's and 60's that never found a decent partner to embark on that project and they are happy nevertheless. 
If you haven't found a person that doesn't make you think twice about your investment in music then you haven't found that special one.

@Lee: not being a pro has it's advantages and you may think it doesn't but think about it. You are not tied up with your typical deadline for a commercial project that if you are lucky will give the opportunity to make half decent music. You are free in that respect and you have all the time in the world years even to dedicate to a personal project and make meaningful work and employ all that creative energy, that gets wasted and drained when you are a pro, in a subject you are passionate about. Not being a pro gives you the opportunity to make music an art form rather than a simple craft.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Sep 10, 2012)

Niah @ Mon Sep 10 said:


> @Lee: not being a pro has it's advantages and you may think it doesn't but think about it. You are not tied up with your typical deadline for a commercial project that if you are lucky will give the opportunity to make half decent music. You are free in that respect and you have all the time in the world years even to dedicate to a personal project and make meaningful work and employ all that creative energy, that gets wasted and drained when you are a pro, in a subject you are passionate about. Not being a pro gives you the opportunity to make music an art form rather than a simple craft.



True, but more bad music is being written in the name of "art" than "craft" IMHO. And nobody should try to do this professionally unless they can say to themselves "I think I will die if i do not do this" because it is just so f-ing hard a business.


----------



## lee (Sep 10, 2012)

Niah: Yes, I think the freedom you described is what made me choose not to be a pro. And I dont regret it. My passion is my hobby, well more than a hobby, but certainly not my job. Has its pros and cons of course.

Asher: Good or bad music is another discussion. However, I agree about your words about commitment. And come to think of it, one should commit oneself to ones family too, should one choose to start one.


----------



## rgames (Sep 10, 2012)

Time out, folks - you really think history's greatest music was paid for?

Much (most?) of the greatest music was written in spare time. Whether it's spare time away from conducting, or being a church organist, or being a teacher, or a copyist, or a violinist, or insurance salesman, or doctor, or whatever doesn't matter - it was work done in addition to another gig.

The notion that you can't write good music unless you're getting paid to do it is absurd - it is absolutely disproved by the entirety of music history.

That Mahler - if only he didn't have a day job, I would love his music.

And that Ives - surely I can't listen to music written by an insurance salesman.

And that Bach - seems like it's good music, but he was paid to be a church musician, so he must be a second-rate composer.

Shall I go on?

Methinks there needs to be a music history lesson here somewhere. Hopefully I'm missing something...

rgames


----------



## rgames (Sep 10, 2012)

And one other thing - have you ever noticed that people who confer "part-time" status to others tend to have pretty crappy resumes, themselves?

Would you rather be a full-time composer with a crappy resume or a part-time composer with a mediocre resume?

Don't get caught in the sour grapes trap!

rgames


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Sep 10, 2012)

rgames @ Mon Sep 10 said:


> Time out, folks - you really think history's greatest music was paid for?
> 
> Much (most?) of the greatest music was written in spare time. Whether it's spare time away from conducting, or being a church organist, or being a teacher, or a copyist, or a violinist, or insurance salesman, or doctor, or whatever doesn't matter - it was work done in addition to another gig.
> 
> ...



Different era, different expectations of the role of a husband/father, simply not analogous to today's world. And none of the ones you mention were writing to picture under a studio or a director's deadline.

And finally, you are mentioning geniuses. I don't think thee is evidence that there are many of those in this forum, no offense intended guys.

Apples and asparagus.


----------



## rgames (Sep 10, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Sep 10 said:


> simply not analogous to today's world.


Why not?


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Sep 10, 2012)

rgames @ Mon Sep 10 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Sep 10 said:
> 
> 
> > simply not analogous to today's world.
> ...



I already stated why in the paragraph preceding that statement. It is only in recent years that fathers and husbands were expected to take as active a role and spend the number of hours with our wife and kids as contemporary men do or suffer the consequences of divorce, which has been largely de-stigmatized, or lose custody of their children. The children have far many more activities that require kids being schlepped to and parents participating in than old Johann's kids had and no doubt his wife was a stay at home mom raising them.

It is a different world and apart from their job and family, most men have far less discretionary time.

At times over the years even thought music IS my job, it had to take a backseat to family needs as I was determined to be a good father and husband and not just a "good provider", and that was with only 1 kid. Had I had another job instead of music and perhaps even more kids, I cannot conceive of doing it all well.

A lot of LA based successful composers, maybe even most, have been divorced. My friends Michael Levine and Steve Porcaro are two good examples I know of just in the last couple of years of people going through painful divorces. It is not a coincidence.

So if composing or even other musical ventures is not your job and you have a job that you need to do well, SOMETHING has to suffer as composing takes tremendous time and effort to do well; as does presumably your job; as does presumably being a father and husband.

Nobody gets it all.


----------



## rgames (Sep 10, 2012)

Oh. Ok. I get it now - I missed the part where all composers were men who had wives and kids. And they have less free time now.

Seriously, Jay? You think composers had more free time back in the days when they had to [email protected] in a pot then carry it to a waste dump? You think composers had more free time when they had to go buy a chunk of ice and lug it into an ice box every day? You think composers had more free time when they had to physically go to a bank to conduct business?

No way. Activities have changed but people have as much/little free time today as they ever did.

People make time to do what they want to do.

rgames


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Sep 10, 2012)

rgames @ Mon Sep 10 said:


> Oh. Ok. I get it now - I missed the part where all composers were men who had wives and kids. And they have less free time now.
> 
> Seriously, Jay? You think composers had more free time back in the days when they had to [email protected] in a pot then carry it to a waste dump? You think composers had more free time when they had to go buy a chunk of ice and lug it into an ice box every day? You think composers had more free time when they had to physically go to a bank to conduct business?
> 
> ...



You clearly have no idea of how much of that kind of work the women had to shoulder in those days.

And I am sorry Richard, people still cannot do more things well in a 24 hour period than it takes 24 hours to do. There are no people I know of who work a full time job and do it well, have a wife and kids that they are very involved in over a years, and in their spare time are terrific and prolific composers and if you are honest I will bet you do not either.


----------



## lee (Sep 11, 2012)

Just for the record, I work 75% (a job that's not composing related), which means I can still be a terrific composer!


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Sep 11, 2012)

lee @ Tue Sep 11 said:


> Just for the record, I work 75% (a job that's not composing related), which means I can still be a terrific composer!



So how come you are not? :twisted: 

Sorry, just kidding, but you cannot hang a curveball over the plate like that and not expect me to take a swing at it


----------



## dcoscina (Sep 11, 2012)

I got a promotion about 10 months ago at my day job which is a manager position and which requires more of my time. I haven't been able to compose as much as I'd like but I've found Sibelius a Godsend since it allows me to chip away at larger pieces bit by bit when opportunity arises. Using DAWs and sample libraries doesn't yield the same results any longer mostly because I'm trying to concentrate solely on the music and not the production side of things which I find is linked with producing mock ups. But I can luxuriate in this work process because I don't have anyone yapping at me to finish my score for their movie.....or telling me to change something because it's "too intrusive".


----------



## Daryl (Sep 11, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Sep 11 said:


> lee @ Tue Sep 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Just for the record, I work 75% (a job that's not composing related), which means I can still be a terrific composer!
> ...


It is certainly possible to be an amateur, yet still be a fantastic composer. However, there is no substitute for putting in the time to learn the craft. Whether you choose to make money with it, or not, is your choice. However, if you don't learn your craft, then amateur or professional, it doesn't matter. You'll still be cr*p. :lol: 

D


----------



## Niah (Sep 11, 2012)

Hours in the day only help to develop your craft, but it will not make you an artist. You can spend your whole life dedicating countless hours to the craft of composing but you will never match the brilliance that is "4:33" and I mean that seriously.

My point was that a job in music is still a job. You provide a service, simple as that. One has to be really fortunate to land an opportunity where one is paid for to do the work of art he always wanted to make.


----------



## choc0thrax (Sep 11, 2012)

Niah @ Tue Sep 11 said:


> You can spend your whole life dedicating countless hours to the craft of composing but you will never match the brilliance that is "4:33" and I mean that seriously.



Ahahaha. Good one.

Anyway, you can't have it all. If you want to excel at being a composer/athlete/chess player etc. you have to live a life of compromise. I've always believed in the 10,000 hour rule. Of course that's if you _really_ want to be good.

http://141.14.165.6/users/cokely/Ericsson_Preitula_&_Cokely_2007_HBR.pdf (http://141.14.165.6/users/cokely/Ericss ... 07_HBR.pdf)


----------



## lee (Sep 11, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Sep 11 said:


> lee @ Tue Sep 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Just for the record, I work 75% (a job that's not composing related), which means I can still be a terrific composer!
> ...



Hehe, you know I was going to write "I´m still a terrific composer", but unfortunately we swedes have some kind of negative social heritage of false humbleness. (Unlike americans who enjoy bragging.  )

But who knows how good I could become if I would study and practise more?  But then I`d have to sacrifice something else in life.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Sep 11, 2012)

lee @ Tue Sep 11 said:


> But who knows how good I could become if I would study and practise more?  But then I`d have to sacrifice something else in life.



Ah, you are on your way to enlightenment, Grasshopper.


----------



## rgames (Sep 11, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Sep 10 said:


> You clearly have no idea of how much of that kind of work the women had to shoulder in those days.


You're going off on an odd tangent. So I can't follow.

I will say, however, that I was wrong above. People don't have the same amount of free time nowadays - they have more.

Never in human history have people had more free time than they have in the last 50 years. The average work week is under 40 hours (compared to 70 a couple hundred years ago). And the business of living takes less time, as well.

So if ever there was a time when part-time composers could emerge, it's now.

You care too much about titles and procedure. I guarantee you I can find part-time composers who can write music far better than some of your full-timers. I already listed several...

rgames


----------



## Gusfmm (Sep 11, 2012)

I gave up on my heavy drinking.... but I don't seem to be a Pro just yet. In fact, I feel I'm less creative now... what can I do????


----------



## lee (Sep 11, 2012)

rgames @ Tue Sep 11 said:


> I will say, however, that I was wrong above. People don't have the same amount of free time nowadays - they have more



True. But you also choose how you spend your free time. There are alot of alternatives to composing today. Spending time with family/girlfriend/friends, watching tv, writing on vi-control 8) etc..

Problem today is we feel as if we dont have enough time to do things. But actually we do. We just have to change our priorities, which may not be the easiest thing to do.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Sep 11, 2012)

rgames @ Tue Sep 11 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Sep 10 said:
> 
> 
> > You clearly have no idea of how much of that kind of work the women had to shoulder in those days.
> ...



Are you a husband and father? Just curious.

The ones you listed were geniuses. There are none here on that level. The very best here have posted works that are quire good, but not even in the same discussion as Bach or Ives and I doubt anyone here will claim they are. 

You sir, are very bright, but respectfully, you are also a true sophist IMHO.


----------



## Niah (Sep 12, 2012)

Since when was the point about VI Control? You have said many times that VI Control is not representative. Plus in a forum only a few members are active posters so it's very hard to even get a snapshot of the community as a whole.

I believe the point was ... is it possible to be an amateur non pro and be a great composer as well?


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Sep 12, 2012)

Niah @ Wed Sep 12 said:


> I believe the point was ... is it possible to be an amateur non pro and be a great composer as well?



That IS the point and my answer is yes, if you have a normal job, but no wife and kids. If you do have them and you are a "hands on" husband and father, you could be great perhaps (unlikely ) but not prolific because there is only 24 hours in a day and presumably you need to sleep occasionally.


----------



## Niah (Sep 12, 2012)

I think "hands on" is what was missing in this discussion. For me it goes beyond just simply the "supporting your family" thing so I can definitely see your point.


----------



## rgames (Sep 12, 2012)

Niah @ Wed Sep 12 said:


> I believe the point was ... is it possible to be an amateur non pro and be a great composer as well?


Yes, it is possible. It also is possible to be a full-time composer who writes really bad music. The point is that history doesn't care about your title or status or how many hours you spend composing - it cares about your music.

And yes, Jay, I am a husband and father. I attend ballet recitals, soccer games, and piano recitals. I help with homework, take the kids hiking, and take them on vacations. We all sit down for 30 - 45 minutes (nearly) every night for dinner - no distractions, just us talking about what went on that day. I also play golf about twice a week, maintain my chops as a clarinetist, and work as a professional composer.

If you work a day job 40 - 45 hours a week and sleep 8 hours a night, you have about 65 hours every week to do something else. That's plenty of time to write music and do everything else you want to do.

I think there are more hours in a day than you realize!

But, in the end, who cares? It's all about the music.

rgames


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Sep 12, 2012)

rgames @ Wed Sep 12 said:


> Niah @ Wed Sep 12 said:
> 
> 
> > I believe the point was ... is it possible to be an amateur non pro and be a great composer as well?
> ...



Well, I don't know your music but whether I would judge it to be "great" or not, I would not say publicly.

But assuming it is "great", though I have heard very little on this forum by _anyone_ I deem "great" rather than "good" or "adequate", then you are a better man than I am because I could not do what you say you do and be as good a composer and musician as I think I am, as good a husband and father as I know I have been, whiie working successfully at a day job without getting sick or being sub-par at one of the other endeavors. '

So more power to you.


----------



## mverta (Sep 19, 2012)

I, personally, have not found a solution that solves everything. I keep having to give up more sleep. 

I used to do about a 10-12 hour day of training between gigs. It's just...what I did, all day. For two years now, since my son was born, that's totally gone. Now it's 2-3 hours a day, and then more when time permits. I'm grateful every day that I wasn't trying to do this when I was building my core skill set, because I simply wouldn't have had the time.

Some people are far more talented than I, and can accomplish greatness in 15 minutes a day, or something. Probably. For me, it takes hours and hours and hours, and all that study burned up one of my two failed marriages. My second failed marriage went south for reasons that had nothing to do with my career, but the addition of my son means that I have to be that much more resourceful with my time, 'cause I sure as shit am not going to short-change him!


_Mike


----------



## lee (Sep 19, 2012)

Nice to see you join the discussion Mike. The most logical (easy?) sacrifice in able to spend time composing although you've got a family life, is staying up late at night. That can be counterproductive though, since our brain, psychiatric health, social skills with our kids/wife etc relies on the fact that we sleep enough hours per night. But we are different when it comes to how sensitive we are to lost sleep. I'm probably one of the more sensitive types.

I'm starting to realize planning ahead is the key to succeeding with whatever project I choose to work on, relationships or work. I have to choose and plan counsciously how I want to spend my time and my life. And be prepared to face the consequences.


----------



## dcoscina (Sep 19, 2012)

I think I composed more music when the internet was dial up and a pain in the ass. I was less distracted by it. I know when I was composing a concert work for a competition a couple years ago, I was very strict about it. Wife was cool with it. I ended up as a finalist in the competition and got some cash so it definitely paid off. Now I have to divide my time between music and martial arts as I'm as passionate about my Wado training as composing. And I know that if I hear a piece that inspires me, I tend to want to write more music. I haven't heard a lot composed by living composers that have provided that motivation. So I keep checking out music by dead people...


----------

