# Guide to writing jazzy broadway music?



## ericz (Sep 29, 2015)

I would like to compose something similar to this:

and was wondering if anyone could guide me to where to learn about this, or music similar to "The Incredibles" soundtrack.


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## KEnK (Sep 29, 2015)

As a certifiable "jazz fascist" I would be remiss not to offer some commentary.
First though, the commonality between the Project Sam demo and The Incredibles
would seem to a comedic reference to jazz.
The PS demo harkens back to 30's era swing, 
whereas Giacchino's soundtrack is more like Carl Starling's work for Warner Bros cartoons.
(Check out Raymond Scott for more inspiration, btw)

In either case knowing "Jazz Theory" is a necessity.
Plenty of info out there on that-
But sadly, there isn't much literature on unlocking the secrets of Big Band Jazz writing.
I've looked. There isn't much out there.

But this web site might be an excellent start:
http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/107-Jazz-Arranging-Online-by-Prof.-Chuck-Israels

If you're obsessed, Gunther Schuller wrote a great book, "The Swing Era"
900 pages of jazz history and development w/ lots of written examples.
Most of the transcriptions are about soloists, but there is some good info about structure, chord voicing etc.
But this is not a "How to" book, more of a detailed historical reference.
Still, he talks about things I've seldom seen elsewhere.

Listen to Duke Ellington, Benny Goodman, Fletcher Henderson, The Dorsey Bros.
Learn voice leading- that what the horn sections are doing.

It's not a simple undertaking and you'll have to use your instincts.
But it's an admirable pursuit.

If you have more specific questions, I'll do my best to answer.
There are a few talented jazz fanatics here, maybe they'll chime in as well.

Rob? Peat? You there?

k


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## tonaliszt (Sep 29, 2015)

This might be a start. 
http://www.timusic.net/jazz/jazzpart1/#.VgsQa7RViko

I only glanced through it once, but if you can get it a library near you it might be useful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Miller's_Method_for_Orchestral_Arranging

Also, reharmonization skills are key. Once you find a few good jazz orchestrations you'll be fine, but your harmonies are gonna make or break your tune.


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## trumpoz (Sep 29, 2015)

In terms of voicing, voice leading etc I have these three texts and they are all gold in my mind. 

The Contemporary Arranger - Don Sebesky
The Complete Arranger - Sammy Nestico
Arranged By Nelson Riddle - Nelson Riddle

I've played a lot of dance band music from that era that has been arranged by Spud Murphy (EIS creator) and it is fantastic. There are a number of bands from that era that have a specific sound due to the composers interpretation of harmony..... Miller and Ellington in particular. Study their work and enjoy the sound 

Good luck.


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## ag75 (Sep 30, 2015)

+1 The Complete Arranger - Sammy Nestico 

Listen to the Overture to Gypsy for a lesson in great Classic Broadway Orchestration.


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## KEnK (Sep 30, 2015)

Never new about the Nestico book.
Looks great from what I can see.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 30, 2015)

Indeed, the Sebesky book was my first study. But I was fortunate to play piano for some big bands in the late '60's and that is a great way to internalize what you study.

BTW, if you are a player any time you are offered an opportunity to play multiple times a style of music you have not much experience with you should take it. As a composer, it will add a lot of crayons to your crayon box.


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## bbunker (Sep 30, 2015)

Just for the record - it's Carl Stalling, not Starling, and he isn't really the reference-point in 'the Incredibles,' it's Hoyt Curtin's work for the 'action' side of Hanna Barbera that Giacchino seems to point to most clearly.

Not to be a downer, but I think pretty much every big band book I've ever seen comes with the assumption that the reader has spent some time in the saddle playing the music. There's this kind of vibe of 'you already know what you want it to sound like, so here's the ways to get to those sounds.' Which is very different from, say, Fux, where you don't necessarily need to have even played (maybe even heard??) a fugue before to get a lot out of species counterpoint.

I guess that's my recommendation: go play with a big band, solo, and in combos for the next 10 years. Then buy a book and you're golden.


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## KEnK (Sep 30, 2015)

bbunker said:


> Just for the record - it's Carl Stalling, not Starling, and he isn't really the reference-point in 'the Incredibles,' it's Hoyt Curtin's work for the 'action' side of Hanna Barbera that Giacchino seems to point to most clearly.


My most sincere and humble apologies.
How dare I make a spelling error or presume an influence


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## bbunker (Sep 30, 2015)

KEnK said:


> My most sincere and humble apologies.
> How dare I make a spelling error or presume an influence



Hadn't meant any kind of accusatory, indicting or even marginally irritated tone - that's what I'd meant by 'Just for the record.' What language would you prefer in the future for corrections of minor errors? I'm a pedant - you should know this about me by now.

Maybe I should go the other direction and do what everyone else does nowadays: "Watch as I TOTALLY SHUT DOWN KEnk with this ONE SENTENCE." "KEnK misspells a cartoon composer's name AND YOU'LL NEVER BELIEVE WHAT HAPPENS NEXT."


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 30, 2015)

Sadly, as Craig Sharmat once told me, "Jay, people don't like to be told they are wrong."

It would be nice if people were able to accept correction when it is empirically correct but most are too insecure to simply say, "Oh, thanks for correcting me."


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## JimmyPoppa (Oct 6, 2015)

Eric,

I write 'Jazzy Broadway Music' (not real Jazz) for a living. PM me if you want (not for lessons or $$$. Don't have time). Happy to chat about resources, etc.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## Rctec (Oct 6, 2015)

... A long, long time ago - before most of you where even thinking of becoming composers - the reckless but wonderful Penny Marshall phoned me and asked me if I wanted to write a 40's type score for a film about girls in baseball.
I told her she was crazy, because I knew (and still don't) nothing about baseball, wasn't a girl and certainly knew nothing about big-bands. And other than girls - I wasn't interested in the other subjects. She thought those where the exact requirements she wanted her composer to have for this movie (and I was following the great Randy Newman, who had scored her previous movies and was definitely an authority in two out of three of the questions...). But if Penny was going to be reckless, so was I. No, I didn't write a good Big-Band score. But I figured out pretty quickly that sequencers are ideal for parallel harmony, if not necessarily for writing playable parts. But I can honestly say that I had the best time writing and orchestrating my version of some alien culture. Curiously, I was never asked to even attempt to play another jazz chord. But, for what it's worth - if you just want to have fun, take a few clichés and just let rip! At the end of the day, the audience didn't care for authenticity - nor did Ms. Marshall - the job was to Invent and have a Good Time!



-Hz-


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## sourcefor (Feb 24, 2017)

Rctec said:


> ... A long, long time ago - before most of you where even thinking of becoming composers - the reckless but wonderful Penny Marshall phoned me and asked me if I wanted to write a 40's type score for a film about girls in baseball.
> I told her she was crazy, because I knew (and still don't) nothing about baseball, wasn't a girl and certainly knew nothing about big-bands. And other than girls - I wasn't interested in the other subjects. She thought those where the exact requirements she wanted her composer to have for this movie (and I was following the great Randy Newman, who had scored her previous movies and was definitely an authority in two out of three of the questions...). But if Penny was going to be reckless, so was I. No, I didn't write a good Big-Band score. But I figured out pretty quickly that sequencers are ideal for parallel harmony, if not necessarily for writing playable parts. But I can honestly say that I had the best time writing and orchestrating my version of some alien culture. Curiously, I was never asked to even attempt to play another jazz chord. But, for what it's worth - if you just want to have fun, take a few clichés and just let rip! At the end of the day, the audience didn't care for authenticity - nor did Ms. Marshall - the job was to Invent and have a Good Time!
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you....!!!! you just eased my mind a bit as i am in the same situation you were in!!!


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## FredericBernard (Feb 24, 2017)

ericz said:


> I would like to compose something similar to this:
> 
> and was wondering if anyone could guide me to where to learn about this, or music similar to "The Incredibles" soundtrack.




...just to get us back to the main topic.

Do you want to write for a real jazz ensemble or just VST? There's a difference. (that VST is lovely btw, thanks for bringing it up!)

If you want to write in this specific style you have to know a few basics at least:

-Jazz Instrumentation
There are quite some different jazz ensembles, most known should be the big band, as well as jazz trios, quartets or quintets.
The Big Band is usually made up by 2 alt saxs,2 ten saxs, 1 baritone sax, 4 trumpets, 4 trombones and a rhythm section made out of piano, guitar, drum-kit and acoustic- or electronic-bass. Sometimes it's augmented by strings (vl 1 - vl 2 - vla - cel, no extra basses!), or other instruments you would rather know from conventional, symphonic ensemble groups. Also the saxes are often multiinstrumentalists. Therefore it's not unusual at all that they switch to flutes or clarinets within a cue (and eventually back to saxes).

Also mutes (which are devices the players put into their bell to alter the sound) are often used in jazz, and actually more extensively used in least called genre than in conventional/orchestral film scores. Straight, harmon, cup, plunger and bucket, which should be the most common mutes, all have their very own sound.
With one you would get a piercing (--->straight) or even a more vintage kind of sound (--->velvetone-mute on trombone), or funny things like the famous "wah-wah" sound, (which is often produced with a plunger or a harmon mute whichs stem is moved inside-out), while another would just dampen the sound of the instrument quite a lot (--->bucket), comparible to some heavy EQ-ing.

Also, in jazz music several specific techniques are used a lot more than in other styles. Common are "shakes", "falls", "doits", "bend-ins" or "fluttertounge".

-Jazz harmony
this mainly includes scales/church modes, the theory of blue notes, chords, and typical harmonic jazz progressions/cadenzas, like to call the II - V - I and the theory of "borrowed notes", as well as the theory of chord substitutions.

Important to know is that conventional pop or classical music mostly relies on triads and tetrachords and chords with 5 different notes, or even more aren't too common, while jazz harmony is mostly built out of chords with at least 4 notes (e.g. tetrachords) and there are specific tones added to get the very special "jazz-tension" and coloristic aspects.
...also you do a lot of "weird" stuff, like you play a tonic with a minor seventh - therefore get a lot of tension on the tonic (tension on the tonic is actually against the basic root principles of harmony).

Jazz rhythm
Typical for jazz rhythm are the swinging eights.Although not all jazz tracks have to use swinging eights. But be sure to check it out if you never heard of it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_(jazz_performance_style)


Btw, another book I could recommendt: Rayburn Wright - Insight the Score. +1 for this one.


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## Ashermusic (Feb 24, 2017)

But it is easy to learn some basic techniques like 4 way close, drop 2, etc.


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## gyprock (Feb 24, 2017)

Here's a link to my very first big band chart


Prior to writing this I knew zero about big bands so I hit the books. I predominantly used Instrumental Jazz Arranging by Tomaro and Wilson and Jazz Arranging Techniques by Gary Lindsay. I also searched for stuff online to get an overall understanding about instruments and their ranges.

I think it is better to plan and start writing through notation software and then mock it up. I used Sample Modelling. The guitar playing is live as an overdub. Could the chart be better? For sure. Can the mockup be better? Absolutely. I've already learned many more things listening to and watching big bands so now I'm going to start my next chart.

What nailed it for me was the light bulb moment that you don't have to always have harmonized melody fragments. Use octaves and unisons and solo fragments with or without pads. Also start the chart wherever it feels logical for you based on your knowledge. Also solve one problem at a time e.g. today I'm going to attempt a shout chorus, tomorrow I'm going to work on the introduction etc. Before you know it, you have a completed chart.


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## thesteelydane (Feb 24, 2017)

That sounds great, Gyprock! There's also a PDF of an old Berklee arranging text floating around the interwebs. I worked through it, and then applied what I learned about big band arranging from it to a viola quartet. Block chord voicings in closed and open position is a pretty simple concept and once you understand the basics of jazz harmony is very easy to do. Please don't judge the horrible mix and out of tune playing - this was the first time I ever multitracked something in a DAW, so it was mostly intended as a learning experiment. I'm going to re-record this arrangement soon, and possibly write some more for viola quartet. It's an interesting challenge to write for 4 instruments with the exact same register.


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## gyprock (Feb 24, 2017)

Good stuff. I love Jazz applied to strings. Have a listen to the arrangements done for Charlie Parker's strings album http://www.ejazzlines.com/small-group-combo-charts/charlie-parker-with-strings-charts/

I also just purchased Jazz Composition & Orchestration by William Russo. I picked it up 2nd hand through Amazon for about $12. It's over 800 pages. It's both a continuation and self contained volume adapted from his 1st book, Composing for the Jazz Orchestra. The latter I found as a PDF on the net whereas the former is only available in book form.


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## thesteelydane (Feb 24, 2017)

douggibson said:


> Would echo others in that "jazz" is so broad over so many different sub-styles you can easily get info over load
> and not find the info you are looking for. Others have mentioned great books, but there is an obvious resource
> that I am surprised is not mentioned yet. Go to your Library. If you live in a city with a University Music department
> I am sure they would have dozens of scores and parts of all types of big band charts. Of course the transcription practice is a given too.
> ...




LOVE IT! Diggin' the Goodman "Christopher Columbus"/Louis Prima "Sing sing sing" reference!


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## agarner32 (Feb 25, 2017)

KEnK said:


> But sadly, there isn't much literature on unlocking the secrets of Big Band Jazz writing.
> I've looked. There isn't much out there.


In addition to the books already mentioned here are a few more. I have all of them so I'd be happy to answer any questions about specifics.

Jazz Composition and Arranging in the Digital Age - Richard Sussman
Arranging for Large Jazz Ensemble - Dick Lowell
Inside the Score - Rayburn Wright
Changes Over Time - Fred Sturm
The Professional Arranger Composer - Russ Garcia (old, but still good)
Modern Jazz Voicings - Ted Pease (for smaller groups, but great concepts)
Arranging Concepts - Dick Grove


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