# Big Band realism, please help



## DervishCapkiner (Aug 3, 2018)

I've posted earlier but it was too vague I think with no example so here goes..

I've been writing with samples for a few years now. I've decided rather than do my usual way of mixing and mastering for clarity, I would do/try what a lot of the real experts in here are doing for realism with haas effect panning, trying to put the instruments in the right space with reverb etc.

The result (along with my other effort using my new sample modelling trump/trom/saxes ) is most likely my worst and most unrealistic mix to date..seriously much worse.

Here it is:

(use soundcloud below please)
Can I ask, what the heck have I done wrong here??

Thanks in advance,
Dervish.


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## sinkd (Aug 3, 2018)

Can you describe the way that you implemented Haas effect?


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## Rob (Aug 3, 2018)

link gives me a "file doesn't exist" message


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## DervishCapkiner (Aug 3, 2018)

Rob said:


> link gives me a "file doesn't exist" message


Should work now, sorry about that and thanks


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## DervishCapkiner (Aug 3, 2018)

sinkd said:


> Can you describe the way that you implemented Haas effect?


I've put a sample delay on groups of instruments ( eg at 45 degress right , 30degrees left ) etc using their traditional position on a big band stage. Setting all the way to 0.5 for the extremes such as piano on one side and Bari on the other.

It sounded better at that stage..I think.

It just started sounding like a real mess when I started sending things out to reverbs and a virtual tape saturation...


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## DervishCapkiner (Aug 3, 2018)

if it doesnt then this definitely will:


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## sinkd (Aug 3, 2018)

DervishCapkiner said:


> I've put a sample delay on groups of instruments ( eg at 45 degress right , 30degrees left ) etc using their traditional position on a big band stage. Setting all the way to 0.5 for the extremes such as piano on one side and Bari on the other.
> 
> It sounded better at that stage..I think.
> 
> It just started sounding like a real mess when I started sending things out to reverbs and a virtual tape saturation...


I would start by disabling any early reflections in your verb, or more intricately, putting ERs and tail on separate sends/auxes. It may be improved with predelay on the verb tail as well. Haas effect techniques simulate the delay in both direct and reflected sound. Would be interested to hear it without reverb (but with the sample delay).


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## DervishCapkiner (Aug 3, 2018)

sinkd said:


> I would start by disabling any early reflections in your verb, or more intricately, putting ERs and tail on separate sends/auxes. It may be improved with predelay on the verb tail as well. Haas effect techniques simulate the delay in both direct and reflected sound. Would be interested to hear it without reverb (but with the sample delay).



Thank you sinkd, I'll try a brand new mix of this but I'll show a link with the Haas sample delay and no reverb whatsoever.


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## DervishCapkiner (Aug 3, 2018)

This is basically how I wrote, dry ( except for the drums). 

Absolutely no effects whatsoever except the sample delay panning effect


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## DervishCapkiner (Aug 3, 2018)

Could I also ask, I presume I wouldn't use compression or EQ on the tracks as that would make things appear at a closer distance with added comp and further when you start sculpting out eq?


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## studiostuff (Aug 3, 2018)

I hear a couple of things: The sections are too tight (note attacks and cut-offs). I've heard many great big bands, and there is a tiny amount of random this and that, even with the great ones. Some composers will play each part into the sequencer and slow the tempo if they need to... No quantize... With a section sample, it sounds way too perfect. 

Sounds like you tried to Hass effect the piano. The pno sounds too wide and in your face for typical big band pno sound, which to me is a little monoish and off to one side and no where as loud as the brass... 

Reverb sounds like reverb (too long) and might work better to sound like a room. 

The thing that concerns most is the tightness of the section samples... Just my two cents...


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## DervishCapkiner (Aug 3, 2018)

studiostuff said:


> I hear a couple of things: The sections are too tight (note attacks and cut-offs). I've heard many great big bands, and there is a tiny amount of random this and that, even with the great ones. Some composers will play each part into the sequencer and slow the tempo if they need to... No quantize... With a section sample, it sounds way too perfect.
> 
> Sounds like you tried to Hass effect the piano. The pno sounds too wide and in your face for typical big band pno sound, which to me is a little monoish and off to one side and no where as loud as the brass...
> 
> ...




Thanks Studiostuff, yes I pretty much agree on all your points. That was how I played everything in though! Slowed it all down to about 115ish ( from 188) played each line for every part individually and yeah, like you said it sounds too tight... 

I think it's also because I only have one alto and one tenor sound in the saxes for a start, making the line phasey and too similar. It's similar with the brass too, although I'm using trumpet 3v3 and trumpet2v3 and trumpet1v3 with a mute, they still sound really similar...


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## DervishCapkiner (Aug 3, 2018)

Remixed..but still - how the heck to you guys mix this stuff!

Binaural panning instead - (no sample delay at 0.1 or 0.5 left and right etc.) - to me it's much clearer than sample delay - or my attemp at HAAS
Almost no EQ except for linear phase on the master bus so as not to mess with distances.
All the reverb on sends using logic's own chroma verb chamber as a space.
and a tiny touch of compression on the brass as they were getting lost in the back.
oh and a little bit of loosening of the parts (I realised I had actually put about 35% quantization )
also a touch of tape saturation and limiter on the master also.



personally I think this is clearer and the space is starting to become more defined but still miles off if you ask me.

Thanks very much for the help on this so far folks


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## Rob (Aug 3, 2018)

way better!


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## DervishCapkiner (Aug 3, 2018)

Rob said:


> way better!



Thanks for taking the time to listen Rob, it's very much appreciated.
Personally, I'm not used to hearing things sound so thin in the mix and it sounds not great to me but a hellovalot better than that first God awful mix.


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## Rob (Aug 3, 2018)

Apart from mixing/spatialization, you could have a more swinging and accented phrasing. Now it's a bit flat... and another thing, releases... now nothing is happening in that part of the envelope. But that's not what musicians would do. Notes should end with a vibrato, or have a cresc. or little accents to highlight the duration of the note. There are many ways to end a note, and that's just as important as attacks...


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## DervishCapkiner (Aug 3, 2018)

Rob said:


> Apart from mixing/spatialization, you could have a more swinging and accented phrasing. Now it's a bit flat... and another thing, releases... now nothing is happening in that part of the envelope. But that's not what musicians would do. Notes should end with a vibrato, or have a cresc. or little accents to highlight the duration of the note. There are many ways to end a note, and that's just as important as attacks...



Great points , thanks Rob. 

Vibrato most notes already have but if it's not being heard then it's obviously not enough vibrato in probably a lot of cases.
-little accents to highlight the duration of the note is definitely another thing I'll go away and have a look at. Apart from the odd fall, I know I could have put about 80 percent more of those little breaks at the end of notes etc.

Appreciate all your advice


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## sinkd (Aug 3, 2018)

Had a listen to the remix, and I think you are getting there. Digging the Stan Kenton 'Stage Door Swings!' stereo mix you have going.


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## agarner32 (Aug 3, 2018)

Rob said:


> Apart from mixing/spatialization, you could have a more swinging and accented phrasing. Now it's a bit flat...


I couldn't agree more. I'd work on time feel before I attempted anything else. The lines are not played like how a seasoned jazz musician would play.


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## Scoremixer (Aug 3, 2018)

So, I'm not a composer, and I don't know what the received wisdom is on the best 'fake' brass section is these days, but the most fundamental problem here to my ears is that the sample modelling brass just doesn't sound good. No amount of messing with reverbs, sample delays, binaural panning, separate er's etc etc will make it sound realistic... It's just a diversion exercise!

The drums, bass and little bit of piano sounds pretty good - I'd definitely dry it up, the reverb to me at the moment sounds like they're playing in an empty warehouse. My aesthetic taste (which like many mixers these days is really informed by pop music) would be to have the energy of the bass in the middle. I'd try and get a good stereo spread on the cymbals too - that should be dictated by the samples you're using, rather than any messing with panning tricks.

Something that troubles me in your original post is where you say "I would do/try what a lot of the real experts in here are doing for realism with haas effect panning". I can say with 99.9% certainty that no big band mixer working with real instruments has ever used haas effect panning. I think it's an example of something that a name mixer has said being taken out of context... haas effect panning should be used sparingly, if at all, on elements within a mix that I'd consider to be sonic candy... little synths, pads, hi perc elements and that kind of thing. Upright bass that's a foundational element of your track? No way. 

Also, the endless tweaking of reverbs, using several different types, separating out ers and tails, finessing depths on a per instrument basis... I'd really argue it's not necessary in most situations. What you need here is a) a shorter reverb b) less of it. That's it. 

I hope that's not too discouraging - my point really is to go back to doing things more intuitively, presumably like you were doing before, and reaping better results for it. It's a tedious aphorism, but use your ears - if it sounds worse, don't do it.


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## DervishCapkiner (Aug 3, 2018)

Scoremixer said:


> So, I'm not a composer, and I don't know what the received wisdom is on the best 'fake' brass section is these days, but the most fundamental problem here to my ears is that the sample modelling brass just doesn't sound good. No amount of messing with reverbs, sample delays, binaural panning, separate er's etc etc will make it sound realistic... It's just a diversion exercise!
> 
> The drums, bass and little bit of piano sounds pretty good - I'd definitely dry it up, the reverb to me at the moment sounds like they're playing in an empty warehouse. My aesthetic taste (which like many mixers these days is really informed by pop music) would be to have the energy of the bass in the middle. I'd try and get a good stereo spread on the cymbals too - that should be dictated by the samples you're using, rather than any messing with panning tricks.
> 
> ...



I really appreciate your advice here scoremixer. 

I felt the combination of using new and completely dry samples that are difficult to make sound realistic ( for me anyway) trying a completely different way of mixing, using reverb etc were just too many things out of my comfort zone.

At the same time, as an exercise I think Ive really learned more from it than many pieces I've written this year and I never take constructive criticism negatively so what you're saying is not falling on deaf ears.

I agree on every point you've made. Especially - too much verb!!

İd love to hear what it is you do do, it's sounds like you really know your stuff.

That goes for everyone else here whodwcare to share.

Kindest, Derviş


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## Saxer (Aug 3, 2018)

It's mainly the dynamic of the brass/saxes what makes the sound artificial. If you sing jazz articulations it sounds like: babadubaaa bap baaaa. And here it sounds like DADADADAAA DAA DAAAA! Most parts of the notes are simply too loud (CC-wise).
The rhythm section is rather reverby but for big band it's ok (sound a bit like German radio big band mixes from the 70s). But the brass is in another room. I'd put them in the same room.


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## DervishCapkiner (Aug 3, 2018)

Saxer said:


> It's mainly the dynamic of the brass/saxes what makes the sound artificial. If you sing jazz articulations it sounds like: babadubaaa bap baaaa. And here it sounds like DADADADAAA DAA DAAAA! Most parts of the notes are simply too loud (CC-wise).
> The rhythm section is rather reverby but for big band it's ok (sound a bit like German radio big band mixes from the 70s). But the brass is in another room. I'd put them in the same room.



Thanks for the advice saxer. 

Your work is truly brilliant and to be honest I've heard some of your music recently and thought I'd really love to be able to do what you do.

I'm going to have one last go with this one and see what happens. Thanks for all the advice everyiev.


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## Loïc D (Aug 3, 2018)

I’ve been listening closely.
Here are some thoughts.

You should remove some bass end of brass section to make them sit more in the room and less « in your face ».
And to a lesser extent less hi end too, specially if you’re looking for a more vintage tone.
You can also add some dirt to the sound with the use of vintage compressor / tape saturation.
I’d also separate less the instruments in the stereo field. And probably test my section in mono first.


Also, attacks & releases are too uniform : jazz players play a lot with the sound of attack and release too.

Very important also is the presence of tonguing and « ghost notes » in the attack (means micro notes before the desired note). Trombones are sliding also (specially if you’re looking for a New Orleans tone). 

Tone wise, maybe swam is too clean.
I was thing getting a library called Blue brass or something similar. They have instruments with lots of character at cheap price. I don’t own it (besides, if someone’s got good reviews...).

It’s a real challenge to achieve this : hang on ! I’ll sure follow this thread.


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## burp182 (Aug 4, 2018)

I'll second Saxer's comments. There are no Dynamics in the sections, which is a critical aspect in creating a realistic combo. Also, take his advice and remove the early reflections from the instruments. Use a plug-in ambience to generate small finite space for the instruments to occupy. And just pan them as you'd see a big band on stage.
Nothing crazy. It's easier than you think.


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## Rob (Aug 4, 2018)

and, something worth trying (once phrasing and dynamics ar ok) is to place a good convo reverb on the master bus, full wet. Then try many different irs until you find the right one. That way the ensemble is enveloped in a common space... here's an example from a non particularly good arrangement, this is waves ir1, Stockton auditorium impulse. Ir1 has the advantage of letting you (kind of) balance direct signal, ER and tail. Here I've softened ers and tail a bit... all first parts are SM and Swam, the rest Wivi and a couple CH compact:

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/bigbandex-mp3.14673/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Scoremixer (Aug 4, 2018)

DervishCapkiner said:


> İd love to hear what it is you do do



That's a toughie, as I've never mixed an entirely sample/synth based big band track before...

As a learning exercise, doing a track like this all on samples is great, but in the wider context of trying to sell your music as a commercial endeavour my advice would be to write to the samples, if samples are you all have available to you. I've mixed tracks that very successfully combine sampled brass sections with real (remote) recordings of soloists tracked up on top - even when the real recordings themselves leave something to be desired, the alchemy of sampled foundations with real toplines can add up to something greater than the sum of the parts. The other thing is that the arrangement as presented here is fairly minimalist - there's really nowhere for the brass to hide. Stick some percussion on the top, give the piano more of a role and get a real player on a couple of lead lines and very quickly you'd have something that would pass muster to the casual listener.


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## Mike Greene (Aug 4, 2018)

Lots of great recommendations here. The one thing I'll add is that the trombones sound behind the beat to me. (At least for the first few bars when they come in.)

Rob remarked that it's a good idea to pay attention to the ends of phrases in jazz, because that's where a lot of the magic is. Adding a few releases does wonders to make the performance more believable. I did a makeover of Screaming Trumpet last fall, and one of my favorite parts of the library is the releases, with those little, falls, vibratos or doits. (I imagine Sample Modeling can do that as well, but I love the ST tone, and it's what I'm most familiar with.) I swear I'm not posting this to sell copies, by the way. In fact, Dervish or Rob or Saxer or anyone else who asks in the next couple days, send me an email and I'll send you a _free_ copy. Seriously, I'd be totally happy to send freebies to you guys.


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## Rob (Aug 4, 2018)

You serious Mike? That’s very generous


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## Mike Greene (Aug 4, 2018)

Rob said:


> You serious Mike? That’s very generous


Absolutely. The possibility of hearing ST in one of your tracks (same for Saxer and a few other guys) is worth way more to me than 99 bucks.  (No obligation to ever use it, mind you. If you don't like it, or don't have a use for it, no harm no foul.) Email me at mike at realitone dot com and I'll hook you up.


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## elpedro (Aug 4, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> Absolutely. The possibility of hearing ST in one of your tracks (same for Saxer and a few other guys) is worth way more to me than 99 bucks.  (No obligation to ever use it, mind you. If you don't like it, or don't have a use for it, no harm no foul.) Email me at mike at realitone dot com and I'll hook you up.


Wow! that's super-generous Mike.I'd love a copy!


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## Saxer (Aug 4, 2018)

Wow, very cool Mike 
I already planned to purchase it when writing the next big band track (probably in a couple of weeks). So that comes real handy!


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## DervishCapkiner (Aug 6, 2018)

First of all a genuine thank you to all the people who have given me advice here for this, most of which I consider invaluable. There was a post about private music lessons recently and I thought this forum is just as good when people are as altruistic as they are here a lot of the time. 
(Sometimes folk seem like utter arse holes here as well but thankfully there's not been any on this thread... yet..)

Some great lessons:

1:When you've spent ages thinking you sound link ' babadubaa bap ' and you actually sound like ' DADADAAAA DA' (thanks for this, it was actually the biggest help in terms of what I needed to fix). Then like many people said here, the dynamics really need fixing above all else. (Thanks Rob, Saxer, agarner32, lowweeK, burp182)

2:For dynamic range to come across you need to have an expression range between about 30 something to 127. Not 70 something to 127 as I did before for the samplemodelling/audiomodelling instruments. The difference is huuge in terms of phrasing what I THOUGHT I heard.

3:Sample modelling Trumpet is insanely expressive, trombone a wee bit harder to work with, the saxophones ( in comparison ) are much harder to work with to sound anywhere near what I hear . ( my opinion). This I'm sure is to do with the fact that key pressure has a bigger difference in the brass and it seems mostly with cc11 in the saxes.

4: having an accented legato note at the end of a phrase is very bloody hard to automate as it looses it's weight when it has become a legato note...sucks to be that note..

5: HAAS effect, or what you think HAAS effect is, is very hard to make sound like a real space with sampled instruments. At the moment Binaural pan seems to be easier for me than just normal panning though it seems to create more distance than it's saying it's creating...

6:Reverb shouldn't sound like reverb, it should sound like a room ( thank's for that one studiostuff ) A shorter reverb, that's it. ( Thanks scoremixer! )

7: Adjust predelay and/or early reflections or insert reverb and send reverb to create the room space (thanks sinkd). Still not totally got this one but I'm working on it thank you.

8: Mike Green is one of those altruistic people, thank you Mike Green. That's a truly generous offer.

Cheers,
Dervish.


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## DervishCapkiner (Aug 6, 2018)

Oh, it's very far from perfect but here it is:



Think it's had enough time but thanks again for the help!


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## LatinXCombo (Jul 11, 2022)

DervishCapkiner said:


> First of all a genuine thank you to all the people who have given me advice here for this, most of which I consider invaluable. There was a post about private music lessons recently and I thought this forum is just as good when people are as altruistic as they are here a lot of the time.
> (Sometimes folk seem like utter arse holes here as well but thankfully there's not been any on this thread... yet..)
> 
> Some great lessons:
> ...


Bumping this one b/c I was looking for info on binaural panning, and it seems like a great list.


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