# Has DAMAGE been overused? Thinking about buying while on sale.



## Steve Steele (Jul 29, 2013)

The title says it all. It's not always that easy to find good samples of cars being smashed, and then arranged in a sequencer. So, I'm sure it's still useful in that sense and probably others.

But, for you trailer guys and others that use Damage, is it played out?

Got to be careful with money this late in the month.

Thanks


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## TheUnfinished (Jul 29, 2013)

99% of the people who will hear your music have never even heard of Damage.


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## doctornine (Jul 29, 2013)

Dagnabit, where's the like button on this forum


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## Simplesly (Jul 29, 2013)

I've been having the same hesitations. Looks like I should just jump in though..


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## Jordan Gagne (Jul 29, 2013)

Call me crazy but I feel like Damage is kind of an under-the-radar library. It could be that I don't realize when I hear it, but to me Stormdrum is way more common for trailers, and Stylus is more common for TV.


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## Jordan Gagne (Jul 29, 2013)

I think it also stems from the fact that Damage is just a little bit niche in its loops, in that they definitely have this industrial / electric sound that makes them a lot less neutral (and therefore less prevalent) than other common percussion libraries.


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## Steve Steele (Jul 29, 2013)

Hmm. Good points.


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## Ryan Scully (Jul 29, 2013)

It's an INCREDIBLE library - I wouldn't hesitate one moment to pull the trigger especially at that amazing discount. One of the great things about Damage(and AEON as well) is the depth of features and sound manipulation tools at your disposal. You can approach the sounds from so many angles so that it always feels fresh.





My 2 cents


Ryan :D


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## rgames (Jul 29, 2013)

I don't know about the loops but the perc is really good and it's part of my standard template. Sure, it can do the huge epic sound but it can do a lot of other sounds, as well.

Using the loops might be obvious at this point but the core library is worth the discounted price if you're looking for some perc.

rgames


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## shangsean (Jul 29, 2013)

Damage more versatile than it first appears. It's not just huge crashes and distorted industrial bulldozing sounds, though it does those very well. And cut a few frequencies here and there and you have something that can fit into lots of different things. It's one of the best things I ever bought. The way you make it sound determines whether it's played out or not.


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## Steve Steele (Jul 29, 2013)

rgames @ Mon Jul 29 said:


> I don't know about the loops but the perc is really good and it's part of my standard template. Sure, it can do the huge epic sound but it can do a lot of other sounds, as well.
> 
> Using the loops might be obvious at this point but the core library is worth the discounted price if you're looking for some perc.
> 
> rgames



Great. That's just the info I needed. I'm missing some trailer type Perc, and some other tom sounds. I also wanted some of those explosive metal type sounds. 

Not interested in the loops so I guess that works out. 

Thanks.


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## Steve Steele (Jul 29, 2013)

shangsean @ Mon Jul 29 said:


> Damage more versatile than it first appears. It's not just huge crashes and distorted industrial bulldozing sounds, though it does those very well. And cut a few frequencies here and there and you have something that can fit into lots of different things. It's one of the best things I ever bought. The way you make it sound determines whether it's played out or not.



Good info too. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks.


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## Steve Steele (Jul 29, 2013)

Jordan Gagne @ Mon Jul 29 said:


> Call me crazy but I feel like Damage is kind of an under-the-radar library. It could be that I don't realize when I hear it, but to me Stormdrum is way more common for trailers, and Stylus is more common for TV.



I hadn't looked at Stormdrum in a while so I checked it out today. SD 3 sounds really good, and I like the new Play engine too. The mixer and SSL section look great. Not sure how well it will run on a Mac but that's not an issue really.


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## 667 (Jul 29, 2013)

I had a copy of Damage that sat unopened for like a year. I think I got it for free (2 for 1 maybe?) and just never bothered to give it a try. Big mistake. It is a very very very good library. I think it's better than AEON.


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## Daniel James (Jul 29, 2013)

TheUnfinished @ Mon Jul 29 said:


> 99% of the people who will hear your music have never even heard of Damage.



So simple yet perfect. Well put Matt. Something we should all remind ourselves occasionally. We are writing music for the audience/film....Not to impress other composers.

Also DAMAGE is incredible!

-DJ


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## Martin K (Jul 29, 2013)

I got Damage with the Komplete 9 Ultimate upgrade a few weeks back and love it!!



> 99% of the people who will hear your music have never even heard of Damage.


+1

best,
Martin


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## Zelorkq (Jul 30, 2013)

TheUnfinished @ Mon Jul 29 said:


> 99% of the people who will hear your music have never even heard of Damage.


+1

I just bought myself Damage, Evolve and Evolve Mutations Bundle yesterday, last day to grab that special offer. I know the Evolve series is a bit old already, but it has sounds that are missing from Damage.

For that price, a no-brainer, these are fantastic libraries and personally I haven't heard Damage percussion in all too many pieces, I wouldn't say it's overused. And the fact that you have 'organic' and 'industrial' percussion in one gives you versatile options.

I'm glad I bought it!


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## Ellywu2 (Jul 30, 2013)

Damage is f**king incredible. Stop reading this and buy it already.


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## danielcartisano (Jul 30, 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBMdsSwNZ9M




P.S - It's a steal at $149.


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## Blakus (Jul 30, 2013)

I bought it at $150 last time it was on sale. No brainer imo.


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## wlotz (Jul 30, 2013)

Seriously, it's one of the best virtual instruments imo. The sound, possibilities are just _-)


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## korgscrew (Jul 30, 2013)

Pick it up! You wont be dissapointed!

By accident I found the drum kit sounds from the Banshee Title music in damage. Always thought it was a good drum sound, and was a nice suprise when I came across them them!

The mix faders are great, plus the stage feature. I find layering damage over taikos, bass drums etc makes the orchestral Perc sound more modern and bitey.

I bought Damage at full price, then the next day it was on sale :evil: 

I dont regret buying though.


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## Waywyn (Jul 30, 2013)

"Hey, I heard that tech loop on C3 key from Damage on your work and that huge hit from the hybrid menu ... I think you totally overused Damage"

- said no producer/client/customer/listener EVER!


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## Lex (Jul 30, 2013)

Waywyn @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> "Hey, I heard that tech loop on C3 key from Damage on your work and that huge hit from the hybrid menu ... I think you totally overused Damage"
> 
> - said no producer/client/customer/listener EVER!



I find this attitude very naive. It's true that nobody outside our field will identify a loop and it's origin, but it's also true that a lot of people will recognize what sounds "generic", "same as everything else", "non specific background music", etc. They might not know where does that loop + string ostinato doubled with moog like synth comes from, but they will recognize it's a sound they heard too many times before.

That being said, Damage is absolutely fantastic and unique sounding library that goes from soft and detailed to super punchy. And for 50% off its an absolute no brainer. 

alex


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## Simplesly (Jul 30, 2013)

Took the plunge... I don't buy libraries unless I think they are absolutely necessary for my work - and I believe I am filling a huge void with the stuff in Damage. Very excited, especially after all the high praise here!


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## korgscrew (Jul 30, 2013)

Waywyn @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> "Hey, I heard that tech loop on C3 key from Damage on your work and that huge hit from the hybrid menu ... I think you totally overused Damage"
> 
> - said no producer/client/customer/listener EVER!



Its one of the bears of being a producer / composer.

I work in radio for my real job, producing Radio commercials. I have the same thing about voiceovers and library music. I can pick out a certain library tracks or voiceovers and it drives my other half mad!

99% of people dont notice, have a clue or even care!

A great example is the Wilhelm Scream. Most recently used in Man of steel. Which I proudly pointed out to my other half, to which she told me to shut up and watch the film.

:oops:


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## korgscrew (Jul 30, 2013)

korgscrew @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> Waywyn @ Tue Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > "Hey, I heard that tech loop on C3 key from Damage on your work and that huge hit from the hybrid menu ... I think you totally overused Damage"
> ...



Just for kicks  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iyUDOxp6CQ


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## Ganvai (Jul 30, 2013)

Totally with Unfinished, Daniel and Alex.

Take Neil davidges Halo 4 Soundtrack. He used a lot of Evolve and Damage Loops, most times complete out of the box.

And know what: It doesn't matter. If it sounds good, it's good. And no one is sitting there and thinking this is from this lib or this. My girlfriend loves this soundtrack, and she really doesn't care that he uses any lib, also she knows about those libs. Even I don't care if I know those loops. I like it! 

They are great and if integrated in a good piece of music, they are really fun to listen. I'm happy when I hear some of the good loops all these great musicians at Heaviocity and 8dio and Soundiron and East West and (put in Sample-Lib-Developer of your choice here) made are used in a good piece of music. 

This "library-overused" thing is something that goes around in every forum where they write about sample libs, but outside of our little communities, no one knows about it and no one cares. they are just happy if they get a piece of music that drives them mad :mrgreen: 

So, if your director/producer likes it, your audience likes it, and, at least, you like it then f***** USE IT till you die :D, especially when we are talking about a great lib like Damage.

Also don't forget, overused is a very personal thing. Most of the people can't hear "Somebody that I used to know" ever ever again caused it was on air all the time, but if someone hears this piece the first time, he might like it (he has to like it, it's a great song  ), even if you have heard it too often.


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## wlotz (Jul 30, 2013)

Lex @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> Waywyn @ Tue Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > "Hey, I heard that tech loop on C3 key from Damage on your work and that huge hit from the hybrid menu ... I think you totally overused Damage"
> ...



Well, maybe we're talking about different Damage but I thought that loops are only a small part of this instrument. I personally always build my custom patterns using all the amazing drums and other elements which come with the library and by doing so I minimise chances of finding the same 'loop' in someone else's composition.


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## korgscrew (Jul 30, 2013)

wlotz @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> Lex @ Tue Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Waywyn @ Tue Jul 30 said:
> ...



+1

I find the loops are good for inspiration, a driving rhythm under a custom pattern or a little blast in a link is im feeling a bit lazy.


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## KEnK (Jul 30, 2013)

Lex @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> ...I find this attitude very naive. It's true that nobody outside our field will identify a loop and it's origin, but it's also true that a lot of people will recognize what sounds "generic", "same as everything else", "non specific background music", etc. They might not know where does that loop + string ostinato doubled with moog like synth comes from, but they will recognize it's a sound they heard too many times before...


100% agree w/ that.

I never use loops- Don't even listen to music that contain them.
(which I know, eliminates tons)
I just cant stand to listen to a computer endlessly repeating an audio file.
That's what I think about when I hear one. 
Not a drummer, a band, and not the scene it might be backing up if it's a cue.
I'm invariably taken out of a film by generic repetition.

I hear a loop, I see a DAW. Not very exciting. 
And I just wait for it to stop.

And there is tons and tons of generic crap doing exactly that.
"Repetition" is what's overused. 

k


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jul 30, 2013)

I bought Damage on sale but actually, I have not been able to use it all that much.

It sounds over processed and too bright to my ears. 

That being said, I think if you wanted to make something smashing industrial in nature where it sort of departs a little from cinematic and goes into something else, I imagine it would work very well.

Its one of the rare libraries which has not captivated me enough to use it that often.

At the sale price though, it was quite cheap and I use it in different ways sometimes. 

I think over all what I really like about Damage is not the loops but just the samples when something like that is needed.

There is a huge selection of just nice sounding samples though they are still too processed for my taste. 

But then it does save time when you have tried everything but then this one sound makes it come together.

I suspect Damage was designed to make it cut through a heavy mix where its sort of Mix-Ready.

If you need hits that are not massive but cut through something, then Damage works really well.

Epic to me is lush and larger than life sort of (difficult to describe), Damage is more an in your face kind of thing.

Which is what you want sometimes and for that its great!


Tanuj.


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## Lex (Jul 30, 2013)

vibrato @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> If you need hits that are not massive but cut through something, then Damage works really well.
> 
> Epic to me is lush and larger than life sort of (difficult to describe), Damage is more an in your face kind of thing.
> 
> ...



Damage is extremely versatile, the low to mid velocity layers sound warm, rich and massive. Try turning off the internal compressor, and the Punish fx, experiment with rolling down the close mics and try running it through a good verb for longer hall tail.
It's really an amazing collection and capable of many different things.

alex


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jul 30, 2013)

Alex,

It is indeed possible that I have not yet worked out how to use it properly. 

May be I need to spend more time with it. 

I have of course tried to experiment but may be I need to explore it further.

Good luck for the purchase!

It is a nice set of samples over all and I dont think anyone will be disappointed with it.


Tanuj.


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## Waywyn (Jul 30, 2013)

Lex @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> Waywyn @ Tue Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > "Hey, I heard that tech loop on C3 key from Damage on your work and that huge hit from the hybrid menu ... I think you totally overused Damage"
> ...



I hear ya, but I personally think that something doesn't sound generic only because someone used premade stuff. To me someone sounds generic, boring and heard before if one utilizes boring harmonies or rhythms ... and especially the loops from Damage definitely belong to the more sophisticated and well crafted stuff out there.

Lots of composers can be happy that libraries such as Damage are out there, because without them their music would seriously sound generic!


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## Waywyn (Jul 30, 2013)

Without offending anyone and just writing it more as a general observation. There is one huge issue when new libs have been released:

Many people do just read the headline, the title and "make up their own content". Disregarding if you like a sound of a library or not, there are many examples with recently released libraries. People read "loop" or "premade" and thousands of alarm bells ring and not enough holy water can be spilled and cross signs can be done while running away from the scene.

Without sounding like a bragger or so, but I tend to not prejudge any lib until I checked it out or at least have seen a well done walkthrough video and actually Damage (as Aeon) is that deep, I could create tons of fresh material out of the premade loops and you wouldn't find any bigger hint of original material.

Again, this is not a rant or anything. I think it is just important to really check something out instead of assume what something could be.

I mean, to be honest, how many of you seriously checked out all the mangeling and rearranging fuctions rather than just opening a soundset and hit a key


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## KEnK (Jul 30, 2013)

Waywyn @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> I hear ya, but I personally think that something doesn't sound generic only because someone used premade stuff. To me someone sounds generic, boring and heard before if one utilizes boring harmonies or rhythms ...


Respectfully Alex, I disagree.

Using presets and the like is the very definition of generic.
As is the endless overuse of certain chord progressions and rhythms.

About a year ago there was thread basically asking if Omnisphere was "outdated".
Seemed to me that the people who thought that were only using presets and not the synthesizer.

If you're just going to use "Factory Presets" you're creativity is limited at a genetic level.

k

You added this addendum as I was posting:
_I mean, to be honest, how many of you seriously checked out all the mangeling and rearranging fuctions rather than just opening a soundset and hit a key_

To a degree, at that point, you're not using a generic loop-
(the degree depends on how much the preset has been altered)
But you're still starting out w/ a factory made source.
Imo- the "generic" aspect will still be present if that's your source material.


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## bluejay (Jul 30, 2013)

Hmm ... I guess your using hyperbole here KEnK given that Jerry Goldsmith famously used synth presets and was one of the most creative film composers ever.

I do have to agree with Alex here that presets have their place. After all not everything is about sound.

I mean do you mangle every flute, violin, guitar, trumpet, etc that you use or do you simply use the 'preset sound'?

If you avoid music with loops then wow you have to cover your ears during some major movies because I hear them being used all over the place.


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## Waywyn (Jul 30, 2013)

KEnK @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> Waywyn @ Tue Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > I hear ya, but I personally think that something doesn't sound generic only because someone used premade stuff. To me someone sounds generic, boring and heard before if one utilizes boring harmonies or rhythms ...
> ...



May I ask why you wrote "if you are JUST going to use ..."
I am not sure if I am having a language issue here, but to me that sounds like. If someone is using just loops (and nothing else) ... where did I say that? Or did I get you wrong? If so, then someone who even uses one loop in an absolute killer written track, with awesome orchestration and arrangement, his creativitiy is limited on a genetic level? Hmmmm ... wow!


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## nikolas (Jul 30, 2013)

Ok...

Maybe I'm not the audience for this kind of thing, or the user for this kind of thing, but I've heard 5 or 6 demos from the NI website, and not only I wasn't impressed, but it also felt that they were pretty much identical (ok... not identical, but treading on the same path)...

:-/


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## KEnK (Jul 30, 2013)

bluejay @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> Hmm ... I guess your using hyperbole here KEnK given that Jerry Goldsmith famously used synth presets and was one of the most creative film composers ever.
> 
> I do have to agree with Alex here that presets have their place. After all not everything is about sound.
> 
> ...


I do love JG's orchestral work but in fact have at times been "puzzled" by his use of generic synth sounds.
I also look at loops and synth presets differently than sampled orchestra sounds-
but yes- I do turn off all the reverbs and other fx in the orch samples I use.
Occasionally I will leave an eq engaged, but I always check to see if I would do it differently.

And yes - I generally avoid "major movies" because of the generic content.
This includes story line, action sequences, CG fx and all.
I am often taken out of a film by an overused music cliche.

I prefer character driven independent film w/ a unique story.
I don't go for the Big Box Office stuff for the above reasons.

k


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## KEnK (Jul 30, 2013)

Waywyn @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> May I ask why you wrote "if you are JUST going to use ..."
> I am not sure if I am having a language issue here, but to me that sounds like. If someone is using just loops (and nothing else) ... where did I say that? Or did I get you wrong? If so, then someone who even uses one loop in an absolute killer written track, with awesome orchestration and arrangement, his creativitiy is limited on a genetic level? Hmmmm ... wow!


Hi Alex-

I did address what you added to your thoughts in your 2nd post-
Maybe we're cross posting here.

But yes- If a composer is going to the trouble to write an "awesome orchestration and arrangement", the use of a prefab loop will diminish the outcome.

I know my view is rather extreme in this regard. :mrgreen: 
But if you've gone to all that trouble to be creative and inventive,
why stop at the use of some purchased item?
Why not write your own? 

It's ok that we don't agree here- I'll still respect you in the morning. :wink:

k


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## Dan Mott (Jul 30, 2013)

KEnK @ Wed Jul 31 said:


> bluejay @ Tue Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Hmm ... I guess your using hyperbole here KEnK given that Jerry Goldsmith famously used synth presets and was one of the most creative film composers ever.
> ...



This is exactly me.


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## Waywyn (Jul 30, 2013)

KEnK @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> Waywyn @ Tue Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > May I ask why you wrote "if you are JUST going to use ..."
> ...



Well, likewise, this is how discussions should be, no? 

Let me go a bit into detail. I personally make a difference. If someone writes a killer piece and puts a premade loop into it which fits like a fist on an eye and it simply sounds awesome to many people, then this track simply does what it does: sounding awesome. Would people suddenly say: Oh, it actually doesn't sound awesome anymore ... once we would tell them that one loop from this whole thing was prefabricated?

Of course there is a big difference between someone who is just or only using premade stuff or someone which incorporates it cleverly into his existing stuff. Let's say, to me, if a track gains from a loop/, it is okay. If a composition is entirely existing on premade material, then I think we all agree - this is kinda lame.

So in the end there are several factors. If the loop serves the initial track, then any other idea which comes to my mind, then okay. Again, we are just talking a loop or a few elements and not a complete track consisting of prefabricated material. If there are killer deadlines, okay too. This is not art only, we are talking business and stuff has to be done! If someone manages to create purest stuff out of only self created stuff he is either working on an own project or actually has the time and budget to afford it.


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## korgscrew (Jul 30, 2013)

KEnK @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> Waywyn @ Tue Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > I hear ya, but I personally think that something doesn't sound generic only because someone used premade stuff. To me someone sounds generic, boring and heard before if one utilizes boring harmonies or rhythms ...
> ...



If a preset "Works" to a degree of solving a problem ie putting a reverb or EQ preset on a track, or finding that a preset Arp is exactly what you had in mind, is that being generic? Im genuinely intrigued by your views. ive read and seen many an interview with hollywood composers and producers (one frequents these parts) openly saying, they use presets.

At the end of the day, we have to combine creativity & time saving. 

I love nothing better than trying to create a sound from a raw sound source in omnisphere. But to never use presets again? I dont think I would ever get anything done, because, it would never be right. Endless fiddling & tweaking would commence!

This is all with respect by the way :oops:


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## KEnK (Jul 30, 2013)

@Alex

I thought we were talking about 'Art' or 'Craft' in it's pure sense.
I was anyway.
Note that you also draw a distinction between that and "Work".

Lots of people enjoy loops.
Most listeners probably don't even think about it.
What I think about loops or presets isn't going to change that.

But for my own listening pleasure, a loop just takes me out of what might be 
a more enjoyable listening experience.
It's invariably distracting and I just wait for it to go away.
To get turned off. 
I'd rather hear a performed part, 
or at least something I've not heard a zillion times already.

Often when I hear hip-hop or rap the mental image I get is the Fruity Loop GUI.
That's the message I get.
Probably not what most Rappers intend.

I have an automatic analytic way of listening.
I can't turn that off, and it can be a bit of a curse.
It keeps me from liking a lot of simpler forms of music.
I prefer listening to things I don't immediately understand-
like Flamenco, Middle Eastern, Classical Indian, Jazz and Western Classical. 

Loops just don't have much to interest me.
I love creative synthesis,
Presets are not usually about that.

k


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## korgscrew (Jul 30, 2013)

Well, yes. In art form I agree. Nothing can give that sense of achievement when you create a sound from scratch.


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## KEnK (Jul 30, 2013)

korgscrew @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> If a preset "Works" to a degree of solving a problem ie putting a reverb or EQ preset on a track, or finding that a preset Arp is exactly what you had in mind, is that being generic? Im genuinely intrigued by your views. ive read and seen many an interview with hollywood composers and producers (one frequents these parts) openly saying, they use presets.
> 
> At the end of the day, we have to combine creativity & time saving.
> 
> ...


Imo- Film music has never been as "generic" as it is now.
Not only do I hear the same synth tones and loops, 
but also the same overused orchestral devices.
The spiccato cello arpeggio, the aeolian horn line,
the pensive repeating piano chord, the eighth note thundering action drums.
These are all "presets" too.

If you use generic building blocks, you make generic music.
A lot of this has occurred because of "creativity by committee",
and the "we need it yesterday" mentality.

Personally, I work well under a deadline, 
but I think "creativity & time saving" are diametrically opposed concepts.

I do want to add that my initial comments were about Art rather than Commerce.
I know that it's mostly a film music orientation here,
but there is room for other perspectives and other reasons to make music.

k


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## Steve Steele (Jul 30, 2013)

Lex @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> Waywyn @ Tue Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > "Hey, I heard that tech loop on C3 key from Damage on your work and that huge hit from the hybrid menu ... I think you totally overused Damage"
> ...



Bingo. Perfectly stated and clear. That's exactly what I meant.


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## korgscrew (Jul 30, 2013)

KEnK @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> korgscrew @ Tue Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > If a preset "Works" to a degree of solving a problem ie putting a reverb or EQ preset on a track, or finding that a preset Arp is exactly what you had in mind, is that being generic? Im genuinely intrigued by your views. ive read and seen many an interview with hollywood composers and producers (one frequents these parts) openly saying, they use presets.
> ...



I would love to hear some of your work. In a positive way. It's hard not to sound sarcastic on a forum. Do you have a link?


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## dinerdog (Jul 30, 2013)

Such an age old "artistic" discussion. It's part of the creative mindset (of some) to crave that admiration of your peers that your "so original". It's great if you can make a living that way and have that ability to turn out real work (in a timely fashion) on top of it.

I'm paraphrasing Jimmy Jam, but he figures "they paid all those great programmers to make sounds, why the hell wouldn't you use them".


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## Steve Steele (Jul 30, 2013)

korgscrew @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> Waywyn @ Tue Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > "Hey, I heard that tech loop on C3 key from Damage on your work and that huge hit from the hybrid menu ... I think you totally overused Damage"
> ...



Ha! Pretty funny.


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## Lex (Jul 30, 2013)

There's a lot of incredible music that is deeply rooted in minimalist ideas, repetition, "looping" and layering of cyclical patterns to form progressions and textures, and I'm not nececarilly talking about EDM at all. If you don't listen to any music that has "loops" you are missing out a lot.

Presets? What are presets, you either make your own sounds in a synth or you play sounds that someone else made for you. You make your own loops, or you use the ones someone else made. It's what you do with them that counts.

My point with Damage is that if you browse through yt and sc you'll find large amount of so called "epic" music that has amazing sounding Damage loop chucking away under anything but amazing music, mock ups, mixes, production, etc....which is so annoying, cause Damage can do so so so much more....

alex


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## 5Lives (Jul 30, 2013)

Any Damage examples that aren't "big", "epic" and "industrial"? All of NIs are in that vein, but per this thread, Damage is more versatile than that?


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## KEnK (Jul 30, 2013)

korgscrew @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> I would love to hear some of your work. In a positive way. It's hard not to sound sarcastic on a forum. Do you have a link?


Sent you a PM

k


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## KEnK (Jul 30, 2013)

Lex @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> If you don't listen to any music that has "loops" you are missing out a lot.


I've heard it (a lot).
I'm not missing anything.

To each their own.

Use all the loops and presets you want.

What I think about your music means nothing.

k


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## KEnK (Jul 30, 2013)

dinerdog @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> I'm paraphrasing Jimmy Jam, but he figures "they paid all those great programmers to make sounds, why the hell wouldn't you use them".


Sorry- but I'm kinda old school.
Started w/ synths before there were presets.
I just like what I do better than presets.
This includes fx too.

To me synthesis has always been about creating a unique palette of tones.
I can't actually "buy" that, I have to do it myself.
It's just an intrinsic part of the Art form to me.

k


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## Daniel James (Jul 30, 2013)

If a preset serves the purpose of the track then its all good.

If presets ARE the track....its a bit boring.

-DJ


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## Ellywu2 (Jul 31, 2013)

I think there's a big difference between melodic and rhythmic 'presets' (call them loops if you want). A melodic looped preset almost defines a piece - if you haven't written that it can feel like a cop out - at least in my mind, which is clearly melodically biased! A rhythmic preset can inspire, or add some underpinning to a track - I guess it depends how you use it.


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## mscottweber (Jul 31, 2013)

When a jazz composer/orchestrator writes out a piece, they _never_ write out the complete drum part from beginning to end. They'll write one measure of the basic kind of groove/feel they want and then dictate to repeat that groove throughout, only writing in accented hits or specific fills that they want the drummer to play.

Sounds a lot like writing with drum loops to me...


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## KEnK (Jul 31, 2013)

mscottweber @ Wed Jul 31 said:


> When a jazz composer/orchestrator writes out a piece, they _never_ write out the complete drum part from beginning to end. They'll write one measure of the basic kind of groove/feel they want and then dictate to repeat that groove throughout, only writing in accented hits or specific fills that they want the drummer to play.
> 
> Sounds a lot like writing with drum loops to me...


 :roll: 
And this jazz drummer plays it exactly like a 2 bar audio loop. right?
No difference at all between a loop and a human being.
Is that what you mean to say here?

k


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## alligatorlizard (Jul 31, 2013)

For me, the thing about rhythmic loops is they often will sound better than creating the same sort of thing from scratch using single hit instruments. Especially stuff like hi-hat loops, fast repetitive percussion etc. So if I find a loop that does exactly what I want, or at least very similar, it's not just about time saving (especially as it may often take longer to find the right loop than to create it from scratch!) but more about realism! Plus, with libraries like Damage & Stylus, if the loop isn't quite fitting the track you can always open the midi file and change for example where the bass drum hits are.

At the same time, it's often blatantly obvious where someone has just plonked down a not entirely appropriate beat under a track just to get an "epic" feel, or whatever, but it doesn't have to be this way.

As well as the more distinctive hits (eg smashed cars) and loops, Damage contains lots of classic, generic sounds, and is very flexible - I wouldn't worry about it being overused, the fact is you'll need epic percussion in your cinematic pallette the same way you need strings or a piano, and I'd say damage is very good option.


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## Waywyn (Jul 31, 2013)

alligatorlizard, actually brings it to the point! Really crafting a very good loop is actually kind of difficult and lots of the self made stuff I hear is rather poor.

Why is that so? Creating loops is simply as much as a craft as to compose good music, mix or master a good track. Why do famous composers have a team of people around them who are specialists in creating loops, synth patches and all that stuff? It is not that they are lazy etc. ... I would go even deeper and ask, why lots of composer have orchestrators or arrangers. Is it not art anymore, when you do not arrange or orchestrate your own piece of music? Isn't that fake too?

I'd always leave it to the pros rather than going for some "aryan thing" (to create just the purest of the purest self made stuff). However, lots of music is generic out there because many people actually just do not pay attention to the real possbilities of a library ...


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## 5Lives (Jul 31, 2013)

There's an interesting example(s) from the pop world (which this may not be the forum for...). "Famously", the drum track for Rihanna's Umbrella was basically an Apple Loop that came with Logic. I put "famously" in quotes because to the average listener, they didn't know that, nor did they care. In the end, they cared about the song - the final product, not how it was made. Now of course, if a song tries to use that same drum loop today, it would likely be called out for sounding just like Umbrella (not to say that Umbrella was the first track to use that loop). So, it's not that presets are bad - they can inspire a great song, but you do have to be careful about overuse or sounding like something else.


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## Greg (Jul 31, 2013)

perc is all about the layers man!! just stay away from the full loops, yes those are overdone.

The fragmented loops however are great and will always be usable.


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## KEnK (Jul 31, 2013)

Waywyn @ Wed Jul 31 said:


> ... I would go even deeper and ask, why lots of composer have orchestrators or arrangers. Is it not art anymore, when you do not arrange or orchestrate your own piece of music? Isn't that fake too?
> 
> I'd always leave it to the pros rather than going for some "aryan thing" (to create just the purest of the purest self made stuff). However, lots of music is generic out there because many people actually just do not pay attention to the real possbilities of a library ...



This falls under "Creativity by Committee"

It's another accepted practice that can make film music sound generic.
"Hollywood" arrangers use stock "Hollywood" voicings etc, to get the "Hollywood" sound.
We are again diluting the concept of a singular vision.

The orchestral practices of Stravinsky, Mahler, Ives and Copland
were far more different than what you hear in the last 50 films.

Again, I'm not limiting this discussion only to film music.
The need for a "team" has everything to w/ the release date of a film.

Occasionally the composers I mentioned did have performance deadlines,
but for the most part created great works by themselves, without a committee.

Many big band jazz orchestras did have arrangers.
But the more unique sounding pieces were done by single individuals.
Strayhorn's work for Ellington. Fletcher Henderson's work for Goodman.

All the people I mentioned above were creating something unique to themselves.
You don't hear that coming out of "Hollywood" because it's not supposed to be that way.
The "Hollywood" sound is purposefully generic, 
much like the Styrofoam packaging that Fast Food comes in.
Consider "The Trailer Piece", 'Braam' or no 'Braam'.

Certainly you can admit that this is true.

k


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## dinerdog (Jul 31, 2013)

I have to say (IMHO) the tendency that's going on in this thread is just one of the reason's that many musician's do not move ahead with the times and just "Do The Work".

http://www.amazon.com/Do-the-Work-ebook/dp/B004PGO25O/ref=r_sim_1/192-0926447-6027225 (http://www.amazon.com/Do-the-Work-ebook ... 47-6027225)

Instead of all the debating and trying to get people to "agree" that your way is "the right way", you could have read this book and written some new music already. (eom)


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## KEnK (Jul 31, 2013)

What's a forum such as this for if not to exchange ideas?

I enjoy learning about other ideas.
Seems like that's a an ingredient for growth.


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## Waywyn (Jul 31, 2013)

KEnK @ Wed Jul 31 said:


> Waywyn @ Wed Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> > ... I would go even deeper and ask, why lots of composer have orchestrators or arrangers. Is it not art anymore, when you do not arrange or orchestrate your own piece of music? Isn't that fake too?
> ...



Sorry, you can not compare film music with classical chamber/church/whatever music. This is as to compare Van Gogh to a team of wall painters. Wall painters sounds very negative in fact, but it is how it is. Sometimes you get hired to create an awesome painting, sometimes you feel free and have total freedom in what you create but most of the time you get hired to paint white walls and nothing but white walls ... you simply can not start arguing about how everything was better back then and how awesome a fresco in that building from 1800 something looks and urgently you wish to come up with something like it!

Also it is not true that when a team is involved that it is always about a schedule or a deadline. Let 50 pros on this forum create different things, starting from drum loops, to synth patches, to an orchestral, pop and rock arrangement. Let them record real instruments and let them work with samples. Let them sing, play instruments, let them mix and master .... EVERYONE will have a weak spot somewhere, some may totally fail on specific categories while others may rock on all but not be excellent and anything. Some are totally specialised at just one category .. and instead of trying to make it good at evety category you better hire pros who help out on your project.

A team is about a collaboration machine of people who have different expertises, indeally working in perfect synth together to complement each other while the composer took care of the main idea to create a (musical) product!


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## KEnK (Jul 31, 2013)

Waywyn @ Wed Jul 31 said:


> Sorry, you can not compare film music with classical chamber/church/whatever music. This is as to compare Van Gogh to a team of wall painters. Wall painters sounds very negative in fact, but it is how it is...


We agree there!
:wink: 

Gotta run


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## NYC Composer (Jul 31, 2013)

Regardless of the general discussion, Damage is slammin'. The loops are interesting and can easily be mangled as can the non- looped content. The whole thing is impactful and well recorded. If you ever make percussive, big sounding tracks, you'll enjoy using it.


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## Lex (Jul 31, 2013)

Here's just a quick sample of a single ensemble patch showing the dynamic range.
The sound is straight out of the box.

http://www.aleksandardimitrijevic.com/VI/DamageTest.mp3 (www.aleksandardimitrijevic.com/VI/DamageTest.mp3)


alex


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## Steve Steele (Jul 31, 2013)

5Lives @ Wed Jul 31 said:


> There's an interesting example(s) from the pop world (which this may not be the forum for...). "Famously", the drum track for Rihanna's Umbrella was basically an Apple Loop that came with Logic. I put "famously" in quotes because to the average listener, they didn't know that, nor did they care. In the end, they cared about the song - the final product, not how it was made.



Probably, in fact, the people who found out they had the same loop sitting on their computer thought it was really cool! Apple probably made an ad about it.


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## soundtraktechnoid (Jul 31, 2013)

I picked it up while on sale and could not be happier. Its so customizable to how you can use it, its not just a simple load and go like most people think it is. Well, it can be, but not once you really get into the library. There will be other things you want to do with it once you know how to use it. Once of the best releases from Heavyocity imo.


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## soundtraktechnoid (Jul 31, 2013)

Daniel James @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> If a preset serves the purpose of the track then its all good.
> 
> If presets ARE the track....its a bit boring.
> 
> -DJ



+1

Actually +1000000 to that response!


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## Mundano (Jul 29, 2016)

is Damage Library current? or is this thread too old now?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 29, 2016)

There's so many things one can do with a percussion library, and Damage has TONS of content. There's so much you can do with it.

I understand that there's limits to what one can do to experiment with a strings patch, but drum hits and percussion bits can always be so much more than what comes out of the box. Compression, transient shaping, EQ, filters and layering can do wonders in this regard. There are many easy ways to get fresh, interesting and highly effective sounds even out of a widespread library like Damage - and especially out of this particular lib because it has so much content, and offers a ton of ways to alter, layer and combine different sounds into something that works great for the piece you're working on and definitely doesn't sound like something you've heard 100 times before.

I just think that these kinds of libraries should be viewed as creative working tools and not just collections of audio snippets that are only to be used "as is". Damage still sounds fantastic "out of the box", but it isn't the only way to work with it. We live in these times where readymades dominate so many areas of life, but does it have to be that way?

I would say it's still very much worth its money and if you're smart and creative about it, there's nothing "not current" or outdated about the library.


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## Mundano (Jul 29, 2016)

great answer!


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## jononotbono (Jul 29, 2016)

TheUnfinished said:


> 99% of the people who will hear your music have never even heard of Damage.




Love this. It's so true.


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## David Stiles (Jul 29, 2016)

Damage has so much content that it remains hard to imagine it being obsolete anytime soon.


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## babylonwaves (Jul 29, 2016)

Here's some info on most Heavyocity libraires: Complex loops are broken up in elements. So, taking Damage as an example, you can either trigger an entire loop using one key or you trigger the four elements the loop consists of by hitting four keys. Once you do that you can combine elements from different loops easily (by hitting different keys). What I do a lot is to combine different elements by triggering those at different times and not for the entire duration. This way you can accent things conveniently.
Of course there is more since Damage is not only loops. Once you start working with the individual hits i doubt that you run into many situations where others recognize which library you've used.


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## mc_deli (Jul 29, 2016)

Love Damage... Anyone thinking it might not quite fit them, or is worried it might be too old or too widely used should take a serious look at Alpha and Bravo


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## NYC Composer (Jul 29, 2016)

Damage will always have a place in modernistic stuff that requires an energetic/glitchy industrial edge. It's capable of a lot more, but that's where it shines.


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## Parsifal666 (Jul 29, 2016)

Every time I've opened Damage on an already existing, already percussion-ed project, I wonder if I could add it somewhere. If it's a bargain price do NOT hesitate, it can be really interesting. Also (takes some work sometimes) can be used for odd times, with satisfying results.


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## Zhao Shen (Jul 29, 2016)

Damage is awesome. Lots of quality stuff in there, I have no gripes about its value. In terms of uniqueness, it's easy to recognize if you use it, but the vast majority of people who listen to your music don't.


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## Mike Fox (Jul 29, 2016)

Perhaps Damage can be viewed as just another instrument, like the violin or piano. It's not the instruments that are overplayed, but how they are played.


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## NoamL (Jul 29, 2016)

Hmm. Contra to most of the replies here, I think Damage is pretty dated, as is most of Heavyocity's stuff.

It boils down to -

1 - aesthetic - how recognizable is the sound
2 - adoption - how long has it been out & how many people have it & use it
3 - obsolescence - how many features does it lack that are now standard

Damage is far from obsolete, buuuut.... Heavyocity has a very distinct sound as a developer. Like Cinematique, you can recognize "_this_ is _their_ instrument." And you hear Heavyocity on EVERYTHING. Every "EPIC TRACKS" composer on SoundCloud has 8dio Hybrid Tools and Heavyocity Damage + Evolve and various Audio Imperia libraries. (for some reason Project Alpha/Bravo is a lot less known?)

It's no slam on the developers. You can make the most interesting BRAAAM in the world but when every 14 year old Youtube composer is dropping it into their Fruity Loops track, the sound gets "over" fast. Like what happened to dubstep.


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## NoamL (Jul 29, 2016)

Also I recognize that laypeople don't recognize libs / don't care.

But if you're trying to get gigs... Audiences don't hire composers... directors and other composers do. You have to impress a director or a senior composer to get your foot in the door in this industry. Part of that task is being good at writing and one other inescapable part of it, in a post Hans Zimmer world, is having your own sonic signature. A composer like, if I can pick on a name, Ryan Taubert, got where he is today by having an extremely personal sound. And if you're not a pro synthesist or sound mangler like Ryan or the highly talented folks at Remote, then you might want to chase libs that got slept on but that integrate into your desired sound.

IMO an expensive "boutique/niche" lib is often worth its weight in gold compared to the "Last Brass/Drums/Strings Library You'll Ever Need" that's on sale for $100 so you know _everyone_ already got it.

Better yet you can often find weird and cool little libs for bargain bin prices. Some of Spitfire's Labs series is so slept on it's not even funny. Amazing instruments in that range...


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 29, 2016)

@NoamL, I understand what you're saying, but isn't that true for any library out there that has any kind of distinct sound? And isn't it also true for any characteristic "real" instrument, too? Is it a bad thing that there's an unmistakeable classic Fender Strat tone? For me, it ultimately comes down to how musicians utilize their instruments and tools.

There are certain pitfalls to be aware of when it comes to the readymade, "out of the box" instant gratification character of many modern libraries today. Some people start to think that their choice of library determines their sound, and that they're "supposed" to do X or Y with a particular product. But I've done tracks in which I used Damage that sound absolutely nothing like the typical tracks you would hear Damage on.

If people are concerned that they might sound like any 14 year old Youtuber, they should stop writing exactly the same music. Unless they're willing to end up in a constant rat race where they're forced to update their whole arsenal every year just to avoid sounding "dated". There has to be a balance.

It's a good thing to keep your template fresh and get new things every now and then to find new inspiration. But if the only way to escape artistic irrelevance is to constantly buy new stuff, to me it seems like a battle that's already lost from the beginning, because when there's a new product with a certain sound and you're just using it in one particular, currently popular fashion, that means that you're already not "fresh". The library is there because someone made that sound a new trend.


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## Mike Fox (Jul 29, 2016)

NoamL said:


> Also I recognize that laypeople don't recognize libs / don't care.
> 
> But if you're trying to get gigs... Audiences don't hire composers... directors and other composers do. You have to impress a director or a senior composer to get your foot in the door in this industry. Part of that task is being good at writing and one other inescapable part of it, in a post Hans Zimmer world, is having your own sonic signature. A composer like, if I can pick on a name, Ryan Taubert, got where he is today by having a SOUND. And if you're not a pro synthesist or sound mangler like Ryan or the highly talented folks at Remote, then you might want to chase libs that got slept on but that integrate into your desired sound.



I definitely get what you're saying, but I don't think most composers have their own signature sound (that's not to say they aren't good), yet they still land jobs and impress directors. In fact, some directors want their composers to sound like someone else! That's actually why some mainstream composers struggle with convincing directors not to use temp music. 

I think to be considered one of the greats, then you definitely need something that sets you apart though.

Btw, can you recommend a sleeper that's comparable to Damage?


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## Mike Fox (Jul 29, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> @NoamL, I understand what you're saying, but isn't that true for any library out there that has any kind of distinct sound? And isn't it also true for any characteristic "real" instrument, too? Is it a bad thing that there's an unmistakeable classic Fender Strat tone? For me, it ultimately comes down to how musicians utilize their instruments and tools.
> 
> There are certain pitfalls to be aware of when it comes to the readymade, "out of the box" instant gratification character of many modern libraries today. Some people start to think that their choice of library determines their sound, and that they're "supposed" to do X or Y with a particular product. But I've done tracks in which I used Damage that sound absolutely nothing like the typical tracks you would hear Damage on.
> 
> ...



Well said!


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## NoamL (Jul 29, 2016)

Well, I'm not endorsing a Cult Of The New - I totally agree with ya there @Jimmy Hellfire ... chasing every year's releases is pointless and one can quickly amass all the standard-instrument libraries anyone could ever need. I guess I am endorsing a Cult Of The Odd. Find the stuff that's not been widely used, often because it's niche or weird, regardless of if it came out this year or 10 years ago. Diagon Alley, not Harrods.

I agree too about "curated by Well Known Composer/Designer" which is often a thinly veiled way of advertising "Now you too can sound EXACTLY LIKE _____" Those libraries often seem to sell like crazy - and they also often seem to be released when that composer is done exploring a particular sound and is ready to move on. When you're done baking cookies, it's no harm to let your kids lick the spoon clean


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