# Looking to buy an entry level orchestral sample library - under £200/$247



## BronzeOrbiter (May 8, 2020)

Hi everyone, I'm looking to buy an full orchestral sample library without spending a large amount... I'm not looking for super amazing quality, but I really want something decent sounding for under £200/$247 (The cheaper the better really as money is tight at the moment) that includes common articulations and individual woodwind and brass instrument samples. (pizzicato for strings is a must). Has anyone got any suggestions? I just want a good value entry level library really. I've been trying to use SONiVOX film score companion but it's riddled with bugs and i need a replacement. Thanks


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## Ashermusic (May 8, 2020)

Amadeus Symphony Orchestra fits your specifications perfectly.


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## Piotrek K. (May 8, 2020)

https://www.jrrshop.com/eastwest-hollywood-orchestra-gold-edition
226$ after adding to cart. You won't get better library for that money.

[edit] but it's not entry level, this one is big in terms of content and a bit complex.


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## ism (May 8, 2020)

For $350 - BBCSO core


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## Jeast (May 8, 2020)

Piotrek K. said:


> https://www.jrrshop.com/eastwest-hollywood-orchestra-gold-edition
> 226$ after adding to cart. You won't get better library for that money.


+1


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## Ashermusic (May 8, 2020)

ism said:


> For $350 - BBCSO core



1. That’s over his stated budget.
2. Missing too many important instruments.


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## ism (May 8, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Missing too many important instruments.


Important entry level instruments?


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## nolotrippen (May 8, 2020)

Kirk Hunter Diamond $99: https://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/products/diamond-symphony-orchestra/


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## muk (May 8, 2020)

Eastwest Hollywood Orchestra Gold and Amadeus Symphony should be good options. If you have a notation program, Wallander NotePerformer is worth checking out. It's not a sample library, but rather creates a mockup for you from notation.


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## Ray (May 8, 2020)

You can get Spitfire's BBCSO for free with basic articulations.


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 8, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Amadeus Symphony Orchestra fits your specifications perfectly.


Yes this is one I was seriously considering as the price and sound seem very good... however I haven't heard many things about it as much as i have Eastwest / VSL / Spitfire etc.


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## Ashermusic (May 8, 2020)

ism said:


> Important entry level instruments?



Yep, for me, English Horn is a must.


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 8, 2020)

ism said:


> Important entry level instruments?


What I really meant is I want individual instruments, and certainly not high winds /low winds etc. So I definitely don't want libraries like Spitfire Albion.


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## ism (May 8, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Yep, for me, English Horn is a must.


I can respect that. I do love a good English Horn.

That said, the Claire English Horn has been frequently on sale for, if I recall, $28, and will add a bit of occasionally hyper-lyricism.


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 8, 2020)

muk said:


> Eastwest Hollywood Orchestra Gold and Amadeus Symphony should be good options. If you have a notation program, Wallander NotePerformer is worth checking out. It's not a sample library, but rather creates a mockup for you from notation.


I actually have been doing all my composing in Sibelius up to now, and I've tried NotePerformer - It's really good. But I'm looking to branch out a bit from just using notation programs to compose. It does seem like a lot of people are suggesting EastWest and Amadeus though... EastWest gold is on sale at the moment so it's very tempting...


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## ism (May 8, 2020)

I'm curious though, just how much BBCSO at $350 changes the game on what counts as entry level. I think is absolutely blows my own entry level libraries (VSL SE followed by Albion One) completely out of the water, at least measured in terms of what I wanted to do with them. And it's also cheaper that what I paid for those libraries at the time.

So it worth holding out for another $100 to get BBCSO ... obviously I can't answer that. But I'd suggest that BBCSO core sets the bar *so* much higher that, maybe it's worth while.

(Of course HO is amazing also, if the sound it to your taste, and you have the patience to work through it's technical complexities).


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## PaulBrimstone (May 8, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> I actually have been doing all my composing in Sibelius up to now, and I've tried NotePerformer - It's really good. But I'm looking to branch out a bit from just using notation programs to compose. It does seem like a lot of people are suggesting EastWest and Amadeus though... EastWest gold is on sale at the moment so it's very tempting...


@[email protected] Before you leap deeper into the money drain that is DAW-based composing, and if you have an iPad or Surface, you might check out StaffPad for $80+. Add-on libraries are spectacular, but a bit expensive — but the free core library is also excellent.


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 8, 2020)

ism said:


> I'm curious though, just how much BBCSO at $350 changes the game on what counts as entry level. I think is absolutely blows my own entry level libraries (VSL SE followed by Albion One) completely out of the water, at least measured in terms of what I wanted to do with them. And it's also cheaper that what I paid for those libraries at the time.
> 
> So it worth holding out for another $100 to get BBCSO ... obviously I can't answer that. But I'd suggest that BBCSO core sets the bar *so* much higher that, maybe it's worth while.
> 
> (Of course HO is amazing also, if the sound it to your taste, and you have the patience to work through it's technical complexities).



Yes, the mid range BBCSO library does look very good for the price... Must admit am very tempted to invest a little bit more for that. It's just I'm not sure if I'd get as much use out of it to make it worth paying extra. I'm only looking at doing some hobbyist stuff at the moment.


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## Eptesicus (May 8, 2020)

I think for your budget, if you want to stick to it, there is no better option than Hollywood orchestra gold at its current sale price.

This is especially the case considering the coming overhaul/update. So you can save up a bit and near the end of the year expand it to have one of the latest orchestral libraries put there.


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 8, 2020)

PaulBrimstone said:


> @[email protected] Before you leap deeper into the money drain that is DAW-based composing, and if you have an iPad or Surface, you might check out StaffPad for $80+. Add-on libraries are spectacular, but a bit expensive — but the free core library is also excellent.


I actually have Sibelius and I have been using that to compose for years. But I kind of want to branch out a little into the DAW world, even though it can get very expensive!


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 8, 2020)

Eptesicus said:


> I think for your budget, if you want to stick to it, there is no better option than Hollywood orchestra gold at its current sale price.
> 
> This is especially the case considering the coming overhaul/update. So you can save up a bit and near the end of the year expand it to have one of the latest orchestral libraries put there.


Would you say Hollywood Gold is a decent improvement over Amadeus Symphony Orchestra and worth paying a little extra for?


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## ism (May 8, 2020)

Eptesicus said:


> I think for your budget, if you want to stick to it, there is no better option than Hollywood orchestra gold at its current sale price.
> 
> This is especially the case considering the coming overhaul/update. So you can save up a bit and near the end of the year expand it to have one of the latest orchestral libraries put there.



HO does offer superb value in terms of the depths of it's sampling - light years ahead of Amadeus. It's a properly high end professional library with depth of expressiveness, whereas Amadeus is a learning tool. It lacks true legato samples, for example - which sometimes you can simulate passably, and sometimes you just can't.

But HO also comes with a significant learning curve of managing lots of individual patches - which is apparently manageable (and Jay is the acknowledged expert on this), but it does at the very least involve some technical friction of the sort that (with other libraries) I found very detrimental to my overall process, at least at first.

Also - I just don't love HO winds. In fairness some of the BBCSO winds aren't as good as SSW (which is my gold standard in winds). But they're still pretty excellent.


A caveat here is that aesthetically, the HO sound just isn't to my taste in the way that SSO & BBCSO are. Purely a personal preference, not a technical reflection on the relative quality.


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## Piotrek K. (May 8, 2020)

One more thing, how much RAM do you have? I wouldn't buy Hollywood with less than 24 and fast SSD.


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## ism (May 8, 2020)

Piotrek K. said:


> One more thing, how much RAM do you have? I wouldn't buy Hollywood with less than 24 and fast SSD.


Probably about the same for BBCSO.


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 8, 2020)

Piotrek K. said:


> One more thing, how much RAM do you have? I wouldn't buy Hollywood with less than 24 and fast SSD.


I have an SSD and 16gb of ram. Is that too little for even the lower end versions then? I mean, I can always upgrade it at some point but then I'm just going to start spending crazy amounts of money so I may as well stick with something cheaper.


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## ism (May 8, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> I have an SSD and 16gb of ram. Is that too little for even the lower end versions then?


This probably depends on whether you need a full orchestral template, and how much you're willing to mess around with freezing and unfreezing.


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## sIR dORT (May 8, 2020)

I have 16 gb of ram and have HWO gold, have been able to use it fine. *But*, you won't be able to use a template. Will have to load what you need as you go.

And @ism is right, you'll many times have to be ok with freezing tracks as well.


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## Piotrek K. (May 8, 2020)

As sIR dORT said. You can use it with 16gb, but if you want to create template with full orchestra and all basic articulations it may not be enough for comfortable work.


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## ridgero (May 8, 2020)

BBCSO Core is pretty neat, many people won‘t need more than that.

Core Anglais is definitely not an entry level instrument


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## ism (May 8, 2020)

ridgero said:


> Core Anglais is definitely not an entry level instrument


Depends on how much you love the Cor Anglais.


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 8, 2020)

Piotrek K. said:


> As sIR dORT said. You can use it with 16gb, but if you want to create template with full orchestra and all basic articulations it may not be enough for comfortable work.


Ah that's a shame as I would rather like to at least make a basic template with all the essential sounds. But I don't think that's a deal breaker for me as It's not like I'm unable to upgrade my RAM eventually.


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## Eptesicus (May 8, 2020)

ism said:


> HO does offer superb value in terms of the depths of it's sampling - light years ahead of Amadeus. It's a properly high end professional library with depth of expressiveness, whereas Amadeus is a learning tool. It lacks true legato samples, for example - which sometimes you can simulate passably, and sometimes you just can't.
> 
> But HO also comes with a significant learning curve of managing lots of individual patches - which is apparently manageable (and Jay is the acknowledged expert on this), but it does at the very least involve some technical friction of the sort that (with other libraries) I found very detrimental to my overall process, at least at first.
> 
> ...



re the bbcso comparisons, my post (as mentioned) was centered around him sticking to his budget.

If he wants to up his budget by nearly a third then yes bbcso core is a serious proposition.. but then if you up the budget you could get HO diamond for similar money.

If EW had not announced opus I would likely not recommend HO diamond over BBCSO if the budget can be raised. However, that could add a serious upgrade path to one of the newest libraries. Bit of a gamble though as we don't know how good all the new samples and features will be,but it looks promising.


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## Eptesicus (May 8, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> Would you say Hollywood Gold is a decent improvement over Amadeus Symphony Orchestra and worth paying a little extra for?



Absolutely. For a start you have real legato for pretty much every instrument, not scripted.


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## sIR dORT (May 8, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> But I don't think that's a deal breaker for me as It's not like I'm unable to upgrade my RAM eventually.


If you will be able to get more RAM down the road, I highly recommend HWO. Also, since you're getting the gold version, you won't be using up the same amount of memory as you be with diamond, which has all the extra mic positions.


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 8, 2020)

Thanks everyone for the help. I think perhaps from doing reading, I may be limited by the amount of RAM I have for some of the more expensive libraries. So I think for the time being I'm going to just experiment and practice with some free libraries like BSO discover (once they send me a link) to see whether orchestral DAW composing is definitely for me, then if it is I can think about either getting something like Amadeus Symphony Orchestra or upgrading my RAM and getting HWO.


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## Geomir (May 8, 2020)

If it's not possible to upgrade your RAM, check also EW Symphonic Orchestra (Gold Edition). It's $180 after adding it to the cart.









EastWest Symphonic Orchestra - Gold Edition


The most awarded orchestral collection ever. EASTWEST/QUANTUM LEAP Symphonic Orchestra has already come out on top in a recent roundup of orchestral collections for its level of warmth and detail. Now with the incorporation of PLAY, users of the upgraded EASTWEST/QUANTUM LEAP Symphonic Orchestra...




www.audiodeluxe.com





It has all the possible orchestral instruments and articulations you will ever need for a solid start (including solo strings, piano and harp). It's an older library, that's why it's cheaper than Hollywood Orchestra. That's why also it has lower system requirements. 16 GB should be more than enough for the Gold Edition. This is as good as money-for-value can get you below $200!


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## Geomir (May 8, 2020)

ism said:


> I'm curious though, just how much BBCSO at $350 changes the game on what counts as entry level. I think is absolutely blows my own entry level libraries (VSL SE followed by Albion One) completely out of the water, at least measured in terms of what I wanted to do with them. And it's also cheaper that what I paid for those libraries at the time.
> 
> So it worth holding out for another $100 to get BBCSO ... obviously I can't answer that. But I'd suggest that BBCSO core sets the bar *so* much higher that, maybe it's worth while.
> 
> (Of course HO is amazing also, if the sound it to your taste, and you have the patience to work through it's technical complexities).


I don't know why but I don't feel about you at all! Even after watching all the demos and walkthroughs, and of course after waiting for the hype to relax a little bit, I wouldn't change my VSL Synchronized Special Editions (Vol.1 and 2) for any BBSCO Core! Why would I ever do that? To say good bye to all the instruments that BBSCO doesn't have? English Horn, 3 different Oboes, 2 different flutes, Bass Clarinet, 2 solo violins, 2 solo cellos, solo viola, double-bass, all with true legato and portamento, and many more! Why change Synchron Player with a Sampler still full of bugs and problems?

The only thing that BBCSO "wins" is that it offers more articulations per instrument, which can be important depending in the style of music you compose.

I would use your own words to say the exact opposite: VSL Syncronized SE absolutely blows BBSCO Core in almost every possible aspect (Sampler, Number of Instruments, Quality of Instruments, Programming and Balance, CPU and RAM Resource Handling, etc)

But If you meant the older non-Synchronized Edition (which comes with an older Sampler as well) then I really don't have any opinion on that!


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## AndyP (May 8, 2020)

ism said:


> Important entry level instruments?


Asher can't live without english horns!


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## AndyP (May 8, 2020)

BronzeOrbiter said:


> EastWest gold is on sale at the moment so it's very tempting...


You can't go wrong with it.


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## Gingerbread (May 8, 2020)

Why not try BBCSO Discover? You can get it for free, if you can wait 14 days. Or pay $50 and get it today. It's entry level as you desired, but what it contains is top-notch. It will certainly sound better than Amadeus. Seems like it's exactly what you're after.


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 8, 2020)

Geomir said:


> If it's not possible to upgrade your RAM, check also EW Symphonic Orchestra (Gold Edition). It's $180 after adding it to the cart.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I actually really love the look of this - both the sound and the price, and the fact I shouldn't have to upgrade my ram is very welcome. Definitely will consider this


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 8, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> Why not try BBCSO Discover? You can get it for free, if you can wait 14 days. Or pay $50 and get it today. It's entry level as you desired, but what it contains is top-notch. It will certainly sound better than Amadeus. Seems like it's exactly what you're after.


You know what, I think it will actually more than satisfy my needs for the time being, especially if you think it sounds better than Amadeus. I heard about this yesterday. Seems like the awnser may have been staring me in the face all along... So I've signed up to get a download link in 14 days and I think I plan to use this for the time being, and then maybe upgrade to something better eventually when I feel the need too. Thanks!


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## ism (May 8, 2020)

AndyP said:


> Asher can't live without english horns!


And I respect that greatly.


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## ism (May 8, 2020)

BronzeOrbiter said:


> You know what, I think it will actually more than satisfy my needs for the time being, especially if you think it sounds better than Amadeus. I heard about this yesterday. Seems like the awnser may have been staring me in the face all along... So I've signed up to get a download link in 14 days and I think I plan to use this for the time being, and then maybe upgrade to something better eventually when I feel the need too. Thanks!



It doesn't sound better than Amadeus in that Amadeus has a perfectly passible simulated legato wheres BBCSO discover doesn't attempt this.

Note for note, I do also think that the BBCSO sound is better than Amaedus, aesthetically, because of the style and the room and the (supremely good) engineering and mixing. But this is at least in part a personal aesthetic preference. But Amadeus playing a line that really needs legato with Amadeus's ok-ish simulated legato is still going to sound a lot better that the 200Mb legato-less BBCSO.


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## ism (May 8, 2020)

Geomir said:


> I don't know why but I don't feel about you at all! Even after watching all the demos and walkthroughs, and of course after waiting for the hype to relax a little bit, I wouldn't change my VSL Synchronized Special Editions (Vol.1 and 2) for any BBSCO Core! Why would I ever do that? To say good bye to all the instruments that BBSCO doesn't have? English Horn, 3 different Oboes, 2 different flutes, Bass Clarinet, 2 solo violins, 2 solo cellos, solo viola, double-bass, all with true legato and portamento, and many more! Why change Synchron Player with a Sampler still full of bugs and problems?
> 
> The only thing that BBCSO "wins" is that it offers more articulations per instrument, which can be important depending in the style of music you compose.
> 
> ...


I was actually referring to my experience with the old non-Synchronized SE. And at the time, not owning MIR or even really a matching capable of running MIR, it was a misery and for all that I loved the samples themselves, the overall sound was never anything other than .. not just sterile, but horrendously, uncannily "wrong" in a way that I lacked the engineering and aesthetic experience to even understand why it felt so wrong.

But even the new synchronized version ... yeah, I just don't feel it. Especially for the strings. There's was a recent very long thread debating the different perspectives people bring to our perception of different libraries. I literally think that our brains must be working differently. That is, there's some kind of a perceptual different, perhaps in how we listen - and recent work on the neuroscience of audio perception suggest that there'a lot going here.


But beyond any perceptual dynamics, there's also very different sampling philosophies. VSL sample flatly but deeply. Spitfire as a rule samples expressively, but necessarily at the cost that a certain amount of the expressiveness is baked in, so you never get the depth control over the expressiveness in the programming that VSL gives you. Solo strings are where this is most obvious. VSL has expressiveness vastly beyond Spitfire. But Spitfire has sound that (to my ear) crosses a threshold to a whole other universe. Unless of course you try to play something outside of it's relative narrow (compared to VSL SS) range of expressiveness. In which case they sound horrendous. 

Then of course there's the musical style. HO, BBCSO, SSO, VSL - just very different styles. The only good option really is to just buy them all.

So not at all saying your wrong about VSL on BBSCO. Just not saying I'm wrong either .


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## Geomir (May 8, 2020)

ism said:


> Then of course there's the musical style. HO, BBCSO, SSO, VSL - just very different styles. The only good option really is to just buy them all.


OH I WISH I COULD! 

The very interesting part of the BBCSO is that now you can start spending $50, and whenever you want you can spend the extra to go to the Core, and if you are so happy, save some money, and spend the extra to go to the Pro. This makes it so much easier for someone that cannot pay $1000 (or $750) at once!

To be fair this also happens with VSL Syncronized Special Editions. You can start with the basics, and then spend the extra, one at a time, to build an orchestra with all the extra instruments and articulations! (VSL is much more expensive in that context of course, but I really enjoy how balanced and perfectly programmed everything is)


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## Geomir (May 8, 2020)

ism said:


> And I respect that greatly.


Bass Clarinet is also very important! But can someone enlighten me why solo violin, solo viola and solo cello are not considered essential / important starter orchestral instruments? I think they are the most important not only for composing, but also for learning!


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## ism (May 8, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Bass Clarinet is also very important! But can someone enlighten me why solo violin, solo viola and solo cello are not considered essential / important starter orchestral instruments? I think they are the most important not only for composing, but also for learning!



I'd argue that "entry level" solo strings instruments are only good as first chairs - basically a fancy form of eq to craft the sound a bit. Some people here talk about just have seamlessly CSSS works to give CSS just that little bit of extra bite or detail.

Writing anything with solo strings as solo strings is easily the most difficult thing I've every tried to do with samples. Even with the latest state of the art libraries, while amazing things are possible, the learning curve is ferocious and still feels, much of the time, like slamming you head into a door.

I think I'd also argue that when learning to compose with real musician, it's best to start with soloists rather that start writing symphonies. But because of the technical complexities in sampling solo vs ensemble - especially solo strings - that when learning to compose with sample libraries, I'd say learn almost anything else first before getting struck into solo strings.


I'm with you on the Bass Clarinet issue though. SSW Bass Clarinet is one of my favourite things in the world.

And yes, VSL SE really should be an accessible entry point - but I could scarcely recommend them to anyone as per all that whinging on that other thread.


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 8, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Bass Clarinet is also very important! But can someone enlighten me why solo violin, solo viola and solo cello are not considered essential / important starter orchestral instruments? I think they are the most important not only for composing, but also for learning!


I second that bass clarinet is very important, I use it all the time in my compositions on Sibelius - probably because being a clarinetist myself I was lucky enough to have access to one to play for a few years. Still for my first entry level orchestral library I would happily do without it.


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 8, 2020)

ism said:


> It doesn't sound better than Amadeus in that Amadeus has a perfectly passible simulated legato wheres BBCSO discover doesn't attempt this.
> 
> Note for note, I do also think that the BBCSO sound is better than Amaedus, aesthetically, because of the style and the room and the (supremely good) engineering and mixing. But this is at least in part a personal aesthetic preference. But Amadeus playing a line that really needs legato with Amadeus's ok-ish simulated legato is still going to sound a lot better that the 200Mb legato-less BBCSO.



Yeah that all makes sense. For me personally though I don't think it's be worth buying Amadeus over just getting BSCSO discover. If I decide I want something else, I may as well invest in something a bit higher quality altogether.


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## Ashermusic (May 8, 2020)

What it comes down to is how complete a set of instruments you need.


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## Laptoprabbit (May 8, 2020)

VSCO Pro is within your budget and worth taking a look at -- brass and woodwinds are individual (Flute 1, Flute 2, etc), and includes string soloists. I like that it also has some more esoteric instruments and techniques that allow it remain useful down the road.

Included ensemble patches are also a lot of fun.





__





VSCO Pro







vis.versilstudios.com


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## ism (May 8, 2020)

Against all of this, a more radical option might be (and I know this is going to sound totally crazy, but bear with me) to start by not writing full on symphonies, but smaller pieces.

And in this sense, maybe rather than start with an all in one symphony, start with some very good strings. Light and Sound Chamber Strings ($120 on a good sale) perhaps, which are wonderful especially for a certain type of lyrical line.

Then many add some woodwind soloists - Berlin WW Exp B, for instance. Or the Fluffy audio clarinet, which is superb soloist.

Then maybe they Waverunner french horn. This was $2 when I bought it, and it's done everything I've ever felt I needed brass to ever do in a composition. (which is to say: I've not actually got around to writing anything for brass yet).

And if I were to ever get really excited about percussion, I think I would go for SF's percussion swarm. But maybe that's just me.

10, maybe even 5, years ago, you kind of had to start writing symphonies, because having lots and lots of noise was the only way (at least for a beginner) to effectively cover up how terrible sample libraries are/were. Especially at lyrical lines.

But increasingly, more and more instruments, even solo instruments, are capable of entirely passible, even lyrical phrases in, if not yet necessarily a completely exposed context, then at least in a smaller ensemble environment - ie without relying on ffff trombone staccatos to cover up the multitude of limitations endemic to sample libraries.

Which suggests a different way to approach acquiring sample libraries. Motivated by a learning plan to start intimate, and build from there.


I know, too crazy, probably.


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## mushanga (May 8, 2020)

ism said:


> But even the new synchronized version ... yeah, I just don't feel it.


@ism Do you really think this sounds worse than the BBCSO Core offering? It certainly doesn't to my ears, but horses for courses as you pointed out.


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## ism (May 8, 2020)

mushanga said:


> @ism Do you really think this sounds worse than the BBCSO Core offering? It certainly doesn't to my ears, but horses for courses as you pointed out.



Yes. Absolutely.

On a technical level, I can hear the thickness added by the artificial short reflections, for instance. And also at times, the VSL vibe in general (which is discussed on other threads at length, but suffice to say I just don't love it).

Not that VSL SE with Mir as shown here isn't a hugely , hugely impressive improvement over what I could do with VSL SE without Mir.

But there's also a certain kind of spatiality and "embodiment" of sonority, a sense of not just an instrument with reverb, but an instrument-reasoning-in-space, that I just don't think can be simulated satisfactorily at all with current technology. You just have to record it.

So not that the sound in the video isn't nice - it is nice - but it's a very long way from the brilliance of sonority that the BBCSO at it's best, when played with a sensitive to the expressive possibilities of this sonority - is capable of. (Same with SSO or Tundra or OACE).

This isn't to slag off VSL SE - few libraries have aged so remarkably well. But so many of the innovations - and stylistic changes and constant upping of the game in recording and engineering and sampling and performances - that have lead us to libraries like SSO and BBCSO, and brought us to where we are now from the days where VSL (rightly, at the time) ruled the world (maybe with a little help from EW), were inspired precisely because of people wanting to *feel* something different when listening to samples.



Paul and Christian talk about starting Spitfire explicitly *not* being inspired to reach for deeper technical depths of sampling a la VSL when they started SF (which would have been very hard to compete with in any event), but to get a very different *feel* to emanate from samples libraries.



Not so many years ago I wouldn't have been able to describe analytically why I *felt* this way about the VSL vs BBCSO sound. But I could still have felt it, viscerally and unequivocally.

And even if precisely none of the (very, very small number of) people listening to my compositions would ever be able to articulate the technical or engineering dimensions why they would *feel* so differently listening to I now write with (mostly wet, Spitfire, OT) libraries vs what I would have written had I stuck with VSL SE, I absolutely believe that they would still have been able to feel it.

And feel it at a level that is absolutely central to what I feel is the point of writing music for them in the first place. (I write for a very small audience, none of them care about engineering or music theory).


So again, yes - and it makes a huge difference to the end result. And I've been only too happy to willing to pay a lot of money for samples that can create this feeling over sample that can't.


Now, were I writing a different kind of music, the opposite might be true. A Mozart concerto, to choose an extreme example, would probably be ill served by Spitfire's sampling philosophy and technique. Here I expect that VSL would be your best bet at coming up with something listenable.

And this, I suspect, is partly because the musicality lies in a rather different dimension.


I think that maybe this is about this sense of "embodiment" that maybe isn't what Mozart is going for in his writing.


And - dramatizing for effect, but only slightly - every time I open up, for instance, Tundra, or the Spitfire Solo Cello (with just the right mix of tree and close, it's surprisingly delicate getting the mix perfect) suddenly music becomes all about finding and expressing and drawn out and experiencing and commenting on this sense of embodiment.

(Conversely, if I'd been using VSL in recent years instead, I bet I'd have put a lot more effort into my counterpoint instead of going in the directions I have).


So yes, I really do think BBCSO sounds vastly, vastly better - but perhaps only for the kind of music I aspire to write.


And would be inspired to write by such glorious sonority as the library contains.


----------



## BronzeOrbiter (May 8, 2020)

ism said:


> Against all of this, a more radical option might be (and I know this is going to sound totally crazy, but bear with me) to start by not writing full on symphonies, but smaller pieces.
> 
> And in this sense, maybe rather than start with an all in one symphony, start with some very good strings. Light and Sound Chamber Strings ($120 on a good sale) perhaps, which are wonderful especially for a certain type of lyrical line.
> 
> ...


Honestly not the most crazy idea... May actually help my creative process to have some initial boundaries. Definitely something else to consider. Honestly I really appreciate everyone's advice, I must admit I didn't expect for this thread to get so many replies so quickly! seems like you have a great community here!


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## Geomir (May 8, 2020)

ism said:


> I'd argue that "entry level" solo strings instruments are only good as first chairs - basically a fancy form of eq to craft the sound a bit. Some people here talk about just have seamlessly CSSS works to give CSS just that little bit of extra bite or detail.
> 
> Writing anything with solo strings as solo strings is easily the most difficult thing I've every tried to do with samples. Even with the latest state of the art libraries, while amazing things are possible, the learning curve is ferocious and still feels, much of the time, like slamming you head into a door.
> 
> ...


Amazing! VSL's Bass Clarinet is one of my favorite things in the world! It sounds so real! You can feel the timbre! I love it!

Of course I can totally believe you about SSW bass clarinet, you just put into play a very expensive / pro library! 

OK now about the "real world violins", I was just thinking that you always start learning how to play a single violin! From zero lever to professional, it's you and your violin. You must learn everything about it before jumping to violin sections and full string ensembles.

But I can only agree with you if we think only about composition with sample libraries, it's easier for a beginner to compose and "manage" sections, than compose solo violin passages, for infinite reasons.


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## mushanga (May 8, 2020)

ism said:


> But there's also a certain kind of spatiality and "embodiment" of sonority, a sense of not just an instrument with reverb, but an instrument-reasoning-in-space, that I just don't think can be simulated satisfactorily at all with current technology. You just have to record it.


To my ears the instruments sound appropriately placed in the room; certainly in that YouTube demo. I think they successfully tackled the placement issue with MIRx add-ons even with the original VI Special Edition collections, albeit with slightly less realism than their Synchronized counterparts.

With the direction they have taken I do believe VSL's Synchron and Synchronized libraries are more equally suited to film/TV genres as they are to concert/classical, when perhaps this theory could have been challenged with more validity when it came to their older libraries.



ism said:


> Paul and Christian talk about starting Spitfire explicitly *not* being inspired to reach for deeper technical depths of sampling a la VSL when they started SF (which would have been very hard to compete with in any event), but to get a very different *feel* to emanate from samples libraries.


This still does not excuse the absence of full dynamic ranges in core instruments such as trumpets and other brass, which is what can be heard in the BBCSO Core library. @muk flags this perfectly here:

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/bbc-core-worth-the-grab.93048/post-4554408

You just don't come across that kind of inconsistency, unreliability and lack of comprehensive sampling in the VSL Synchronized Special Editions, a series which can be directly compared with BBCSO Core when it comes to pricing and the packages on offer.


----------



## muk (May 8, 2020)

mushanga said:


> To my ears the instruments sound appropriately placed in the room; certainly in that YouTube demo. I think they successfully tackled the placement issue with MIRx add-ons even with the original VI Special Edition collections, albeit with slightly less realism than their Synchronized counterparts.
> 
> With the direction they have taken I do believe VSL's Synchron and Synchronized libraries are more equally suited to film/TV genres as they are to concert/classical, when perhaps this theory could have been challenged with more validity when it came to their older libraries.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately, the dynamic layers are also absent in 'Pro'. They simply have not been recorded: 






Spitfire Audio - "It's all about to change" - BBCSO Core / Discover


You guys, now that this thing is called PRO, you will never get your actual PRO Library add on. Hope you feel the warmth and happiness of marketing yet! (Sorry, feeling exceedingly salty today for now reason, maybe I should go to bed again).




vi-control.net





For me, that's one corner being cut in the wrong place. If it had two more dynamic layers it could have been a pretty perfect library.


----------



## purple (May 8, 2020)

Sign up for the free BBCSO discover on their site. Quite limited but isn't unusable especially in conjunction with other libraries.

Get all the free and pennies libraries like organic samples majestic horn for $2, ProjectSam free orchestra, VSCO, and others if you search around for "Free samples"

Spitfire LABS are another free thing.

Get the East West Composer Cloud (15$ a month is what I pay but it depends on which version(s) you want or are eligible for.

Between those you will have multiple options for most musical passages you write and won't have sunk much of your money in "entry-level" stuff, allowing you to spend that money on modular improvements to your library rather than eventually upgrading and having a library you payed a couple hundred dollars for collect dust (which is an inevitable future for you).


----------



## Reid Rosefelt (May 8, 2020)

I would highly recommend you sign up for a month of Composer Cloud for $29.99 before you consider buying Hollywood Gold. You can't beat the sounds, but see if the Play Engine is to your liking. 

I am also a big fan of Amadeus for a starter library. It sells for $149 and sometimes goes on sale for even less. You have access to all the instruments in the orchestra and main articulations, plus a choir and two guitars ,and it has a user interface designed by Tracy Collins of Indiginus, which makes it really easy to use. In addition, it has a feature called Symphony (13:25 in the video below) which is great fun for sketching.

IMHO Amadeus it is the best deal for the money that you can get for a starter orchestra. You said, "the cheaper the better." This is it.

If you do want to use the leftover money, I would suggest you buying full Kontakt. (Amadeus runs in the free Kontakt Player) If you pick up an approved Kontakt Player instrument (I believe Embertone's free Arcane and ProjectSAM's Free Orchestra qualify) and upgrade during the Native Instruments summer sale (coming any day) it will be $125. Kontakt comes with a huge library of instruments onboard (including old versions of VSL). As soon as you have it, you can download hundreds of free and very cheap high-quality libraries, like Organic Samples' beautiful Majestic Horn, which sells for two euros.


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## peladio (May 9, 2020)

ism said:


> For $350 - BBCSO core



It's not as intuitive but Hollywood Gold is much better and cheaper (I have both)..


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## batonruse (May 9, 2020)

+1 for Amadeus


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## Alex Fraser (May 9, 2020)

Worth pointing out that full loads of the BBCSO core are coming in at 6-7 gigs, all articulations, all instruments. So if 16gb is the memory limit for the OP, there’s something to consider.


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## Rossy (May 9, 2020)

BronzeOrbiter said:


> Hi everyone, I'm looking to buy an full orchestral sample library without spending a large amount... I'm not looking for super amazing quality, but I really want something decent sounding for under £200/$247 (The cheaper the better really as money is tight at the moment) that includes common articulations and individual woodwind and brass instrument samples. (pizzicato for strings is a must). Has anyone got any suggestions? I just want a good value entry level library really. I've been trying to use SONiVOX film score companion but it's riddled with bugs and i need a replacement. Thanks


I'm new but I bought garritan 5 for $159 and until I upgrade, I thought it was great


Redirect Notice


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## Dirtgrain (May 9, 2020)

I see HO Gold for about 40 dollars cheeper at everyplugin.com. I can't vouch for the seller, but I just saw it on Reddit and thought it pertinent.


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 10, 2020)

I'm thinking of maybe looking at getting East West Symphonic Orchestra Gold at some point soon, as I've found a very good deal - it's not much more than Amadeus atm. But is it a good library? I've heard it's pretty old, but what's everyone's opinion on it for a starter library? I am kind of limited by the amount of ram (16gb) and SSD space I have, so it seems like it may provide the best experience I can get without upgrading my gear. It just looks really good value for the price and comes with more instrument types than other libraries like BBCSO Core.

I have decided to try out composers cloud for a month - just downloading SO so I can try it out! I maybe will try HO as well to see if I can manage to run it with limited hardware. May even stick with composers cloud, I am liking the sound of doing that..


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## Ashermusic (May 10, 2020)

BronzeOrbiter said:


> I'm thinking of maybe looking at getting East West Symphonic Orchestra Gold at some point soon, as I've found a very good deal - it's not much more than Amadeus atm. But is it a good library? I've heard it's pretty old, but what's everyone's opinion on it for a starter library? I am kind of limited by the amount of ram (16gb) and SSD space I have, so it seems like it may provide the best experience I can get without upgrading my gear. It just looks really good value for the price and comes with more instrument types than other libraries like BBCSO Core.
> 
> I have decided to try out composers cloud for a month - just downloading SO so I can try it out! I maybe will try HO as well to see if I can manage to run it with limited hardware. May even stick with composers cloud, I am liking the sound of doing that..



it’s still an excellent sounding library, Beautifully recorded, but a little wet and no true legato.

The difference is a library like e.g. Amadeus is very complete, with the important articulations, pretty much assembled and ready to go. With EWQLSO you have a lot more choices, which is great, but you have to decide what you need and set it up, unless someone gives you a template that you like.


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## bill5 (May 10, 2020)

PaulBrimstone said:


> @[email protected] Before you leap deeper into the money drain that is DAW-based composing, and if you have an iPad or Surface, you might check out StaffPad for $80+. Add-on libraries are spectacular, but a bit expensive — but the free core library is also excellent.


? DAW-based composing is not expensive at all unless you're a die hard for Pro Tools, and for a hobbyist that would be about the worst route to go IMO. 

Anyway this has been informative for someone who has been window shopping more inexpensive libaries as well, all the replies have been helpful. I only saw one person mention Garritan; they don't seem to be well regarded here?


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## ism (May 10, 2020)

bill5 said:


> I only saw one person mention Garritan; they don't seem to be well regarded here?


Granted this was several versions of GPO ago. But I started with it. And after about 15m decided that I just wasn't poor enough to have to listen to such terrible sounds, bought VSL SE, and have never even looked at the GPO again.

Not that I would ever recommend VSL to anyone, ever. But at the time, it was game changing. Universes beyond GPO.


And yes, the terribleness of the sound wasn't undoubtedly as least as much a reflection on my composition skills an on library. But I still wasn't poor enough to have to listen to such terrible sounds regardless of who's fault this terribleness was.


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## bill5 (May 10, 2020)

Tell me how you really feel  

Also can anyone confirm that East West is one of the few (perhaps only among major players) that does not require Kontakt? That's huge for me as I hate Kontakt


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## El Buhdai (May 10, 2020)

ComposerCloud is definitely the best place to start in my opinion. Hollywood Orchestra still seems to be more deeply sampled with greater dynamics and a wider selection of instruments and articulations than BBCSO Core, not to mention you get a decent (but good when you know what you're doing) choir to go with it, as well as ethnic instruments and a whole host of other things. It was an incredible stepping stone for me when I was new, and even though I seek to move away from Hollywood Orchestra in pursuit of lighter and more convenient libraries, I will forever be grateful to EastWest for lowering the barrier of entry with ComposerCloud. 

Not to mention, since I first started by getting fairly good with Hollywood Orchestra, almost every modern library has been quick and easier to pick up since most of them have much easier workflows. Starting with HO is like running with weights. When you take those weights off, you'll race down the track with ease.

P.S.: You can get away with using it on a 16GB of RAM machine.


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## El Buhdai (May 10, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Tell me how you really feel
> 
> Also can anyone confirm that East West is one of the few (perhaps only among major players) that does not require Kontakt? That's huge for me as I hate Kontakt



It's one of the few. I don't see a reason to hate Kontakt other than its business model. Seriously, there should be a free version that works with all libraries but doesn't allow you to edit or create instruments in any way. The absurd $400 price tag should be reserved for people who seek to build libraries for it. All this does is block new people who aren't financially as fortunate from being able to compose.


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## g.c. (May 10, 2020)

Don't know if its been mentioned here, but Soundsonline is having a 60% off sale on, supposedly, everything. Look there also before buying if East West lib. The Hollywood Strings Diamond is on sale for $160.00
But I'd go along with the idea of adding Kontakt to your arsenal.
And there is nothing wrong at all with Play #6, which is what you'd get with a current purchase.
I'd also agree with Mr. Buhdai abot the cloud. Look at the month to month in the beginning in case you're turned off by it. But there is a large reserve of material in there for anything you'd want to do.
g.c.


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 11, 2020)

El Buhdai said:


> ComposerCloud is definitely the best place to start in my opinion. Hollywood Orchestra still seems to be more deeply sampled with greater dynamics and a wider selection of instruments and articulations than BBCSO Core, not to mention you get a decent (but good when you know what you're doing) choir to go with it, as well as ethnic instruments and a whole host of other things. It was an incredible stepping stone for me when I was new, and even though I seek to move away from Hollywood Orchestra in pursuit of lighter and more convenient libraries, I will forever be grateful to EastWest for lowering the barrier of entry with ComposerCloud.
> 
> Not to mention, since I first started by getting fairly good with Hollywood Orchestra, almost every modern library has been quick and easier to pick up since most of them have much easier workflows. Starting with HO is like running with weights. When you take those weights off, you'll race down the track with ease.
> 
> P.S.: You can get away with using it on a 16GB of RAM machine.



I'm loving composers cloud to be honest - there's so much in there, it seems pretty good value. I've so far only download EWQLSO, and I spent all of yesterday setting up a template. I love the sound of it even though it's old. At some point I'll try out some of the Hollywood libraries too, and I'm really loving the idea of having access to ethnic instruments and choirs. May well just stick with this TBH.


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## cmillar (May 12, 2020)

The Kirk Hunter 'Diamond' orchestra is on sale for only $99!

Unbelievable deal. There's plenty of material in there to work with for any kind of production work. If you're absolutely new to sample libraries, then it might overwhelm you a little bit with all the options.

But even if you have other libraries, the KH sound blends nicely and helps to give more presence to some libraries that might have tons of 'detail' but don't actually sound good over different types of speakers.

I do most of my music recording for projects that have to be heard outdoors over big speakers, and the KH libraries are the best for this. They end up sounding 'more real' than many other high-priced libraries.

Anyways, they're great libraries if you know what you're doing.


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## Yogevs (May 12, 2020)

Won't Discover be the one to go with now?


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## RogiervG (May 12, 2020)

cmillar said:


> I do most of my music recording for projects that have to be heard outdoors over big speakers, and the KH libraries are the best for this. They end up sounding 'more real' than many other high-priced libraries.



Sound more like a mixing/mastering issue than the libraries themselves.
Many high end libraries are used in movie soundtracks/background music on big speaker sets in cinemas. Also on many pop tracks, with playback on large systems.


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## MarcelM (May 12, 2020)

and if i remember right you need kontakt full version for kirk hunter, and this one isnt cheap. better options there if you are starting out. my vote would go for composer cloud aswell or hollywood orchestra gold.


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## cmillar (May 12, 2020)

If one is starting out, I'd say forget about the EastWest libraries (....noting that I've also owned Hollywood Gold for a few years now)

Why?...many reasons....it's too much to set up if you just want to get a fast workflow happening; too many articulations to load in and decide upon; not mentioning that you better have a top notch computer setup that give you any hiccups along the way during playback; etc. etc. No doubt that Hollywood is very nice sounding, but it's not for someone who is just wanting something quick, no-hassle, great-sounding, and won't demand re-thinking their entire computer work flow.

I'm with everyone who says get 'Amadeus Symphonic Orchestra'. Now, that's a deal.

It's got everything you need to get going, and more. I'd say this library compares with others costing many, many times more the amount of money....including the new Spitfire BBC Core/Discovery. 'Amadeus' will give you more of a musical education than BBC Core/Discovery will accomplish.

In 'Amadeus', you can actually choose to adjust, or use another, reverb. In the BBC Core/Discovery stuff there's so much room tone that you can't really understand what's going on in some sections....like, the brass sound like they're playing from a mile away... how's a beginner going to understand the subtleties of real brass playing if it all sounds like it's swamped in a swampy reverb. (....some people like it, though....)

Hey....buy 'Amadeus' and enjoy! It'll even work in finished productions with some loving care with no problem.

(....another note, I just bought it recently, as I've heard and admired other productions made with it and I'm at the point where I don't really love spending more time screwing around with templates and computer setups than I do actually composing and recording music. I'm not a Hollywood or London first call composer and don't get to hire other people to do a lot of the grunt work. But, I still have to produce and come up with some excellent sounding music in relatively short amounts of time once in awhile.
'Amadeus' can sound phenomenal with some augmentation from a couple of other sounds and by 'farming-out' some of the final processing.)


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## cmillar (May 12, 2020)

RogiervG said:


> Sound more like a mixing/mastering issue than the libraries themselves.
> Many high end libraries are used in movie soundtracks/background music on big speaker sets in cinemas. Also on many pop tracks, with playback on large systems.



Disagree...movie theaters are a different beast than an indoor arena-sized space or an outdoor fair-ground. When outdoors, you have to compete with many other factors in order to make the music sound great.

In a theater, you've got a dream sound setup with no distractions, and you're not trying to be heard 200 feet away with no walls for sound to bounce off of.

The Kirk Hunter libraries are fantastic for outdoor productions. I've had people (that I trust) ask me what orchestra did I go to when I recorded the music they just heard. There eyes open wide when I say that was Kirk Hunter libraries, because KH isn't usually talked about that much. 

So, you have to use the right tools for the right job.


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## MarcelM (May 12, 2020)

cant believe that amadeus gets recommended instead of hollywood orchestra. amadeus doesnt hold a candle against it, and the sound of an library is the most important thing imho.


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## Ashermusic (May 12, 2020)

MarcelM said:


> cant believe that amadeus gets recommended instead of hollywood orchestra. amadeus doesnt hold a candle against it, and the sound of an library is the most important thing imho.




I would definitely agree , for someone who is somewhat experienced. For a beginner to orchestral reproduction who is looking to learn, maybe not.


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## MarcelM (May 12, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I would definitely agree , for someone who is somewhat experienced. For a beginner to orchestral reproduction who is looking to learn, maybe not.



well, i always wonder why people say hollywood orchestra is so hard to learn. you can start with just a few patches and maybe read the manual and watch some youtube videos. it may have a learning curve, but its absolutely worth it. i think a beginner also wants something convincing when it comes to sound, otherwise they could also use something free like logic stock instruments or the free vsco library.


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## Ashermusic (May 12, 2020)

MarcelM said:


> well, i always wonder why people say hollywood orchestra is so hard to learn. you can start with just a few patches and maybe read the manual and watch some youtube videos. it may have a learning curve, but its absolutely worth it. i think a beginner also wants something convincing when it comes to sound, otherwise they could also use something free like logic stock instruments or the free vsco library.




There are beginners and there are beginners. I teach Logic Pro X to a lot of them and trust me, much as I love H.O. they would be overwhelmed, even with me giving them a template.


----------



## BronzeOrbiter (May 12, 2020)

cmillar said:


> If one is starting out, I'd say forget about the EastWest libraries (....noting that I've also owned Hollywood Gold for a few years now)
> 
> Why?...many reasons....it's too much to set up if you just want to get a fast workflow happening; too many articulations to load in and decide upon; not mentioning that you better have a top notch computer setup that give you any hiccups along the way during playback; etc. etc. No doubt that Hollywood is very nice sounding, but it's not for someone who is just wanting something quick, no-hassle, great-sounding, and won't demand re-thinking their entire computer work flow.
> 
> ...



Yeah... I've been playing around with EWQLSO (Not Hollywood as of yet) for a few days as i bought composers cloud for a month, and it's very overwhelming! It takes so much setting up which makes me think i may be better with Amadeus. That being said, as I've got nothing else to do at the moment i literally spent the past two days setting up a template, and now it's more or less good to go to suit my needs, although it's still a little overwhelming. I'll give it a real go for a month and if it's still a pain after that, I'll buy Amadeus i think.


----------



## MarcelM (May 12, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> There are beginners and there are beginners. I teach Logic Pro X to a lot of them and trust me, much as I love H.O. they would be overwhelmed, even with me giving them a template.



yeah, i get what you are saying. i started with hollywood strings silver and brass, and now iam using diamond. silver isnt a bad start imho and its very easy to handle. way better sound than amadeus.


----------



## MarcelM (May 12, 2020)

BronzeOrbiter said:


> Yeah... I've been playing around with EWQLSO (Not Hollywood as of yet) for a few days as i bought composers cloud for a month, and it's very overwhelming! It takes so much setting up which makes me think i may be better with Amadeus. That being said, as I've got nothing else to do at the moment i literally spent the past two days setting up a template, and now it's more or less good to go to suit my needs, although it's still a little overwhelming. I'll give it a real go for a month and if it's still a pain after that, I'll buy Amadeus i think.



you can also demo iconica from steinberg for 30 days. iam sure steinberg will have its summer sale soon, and iconica is a complete package and pretty easy to use. it was made by orchestral tools and steinberg together. have a look at it atleast...


----------



## Ashermusic (May 12, 2020)

MarcelM said:


> yeah, i get what you are saying. i started with hollywood strings silver and brass, and now iam using diamond. silver isnt a bad start imho and its very easy to handle. way better sound than amadeus.




Remember, I am a big promoter of H.O and I used to work part time for EW, so if anything, I am prejudiced towards them.

But I think Amadeus is a better choice for some people and I think the sound is fine, if not spectacular.


----------



## Ashermusic (May 12, 2020)

MarcelM said:


> you can also demo iconica from steinberg for 30 days. iam sure steinberg will have its summer sale soon, and iconica is a complete package and pretty easy to use. it was made by orchestral tools and steinberg together. have a look at it atleast...



Not familiar with item but OT is a great developer.


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 12, 2020)

MarcelM said:


> you can also demo iconica from steinberg for 30 days. iam sure steinberg will have its summer sale soon, and iconica is a complete package and pretty easy to use. it was made by orchestral tools and steinberg together. have a look at it atleast...


Thanks! I'll be sure to check it out


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (May 12, 2020)

For what it’s worth, I get by on my MacBook Pro 16GB, running BBCSO and Hollywood Strings/Brass Gold. I only load what I need, and have no issues with average projects of 30-40 tracks. I’ve never had to freeze tracks, ever. A good audio interface and SSD’s definitely help. Might be a whole different scenario on PC, but I used to also run the Hollywood Gold stuff on my good old i7 2700k with 16GB (which is my slave when I need it; I upgraded the RAM to 24GB and I can load it up quite heavily).


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## bill5 (May 12, 2020)

MarcelM said:


> cant believe that amadeus gets recommended instead of hollywood orchestra. amadeus doesnt hold a candle against it, and the sound of an library is the most important thing imho.


I haven't heard enough of each (never mind one right after the other) to say, but I get the impression from those who have that the diff is not all that huge in sound quality, perhaps even negligible, and I don't mean "just for beginners" either. Again just an impression from what I've heard/read as a consensus.


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## MarcelM (May 12, 2020)

bill5 said:


> I haven't heard enough of each (never mind one right after the other) to say, but I get the impression from those who have that the diff is not all that huge in sound quality, perhaps even negligible, and I don't mean "just for beginners" either. Again just an impression from what I've heard/read as a consensus.



if we are talking only about sound quality the difference is actually huge. everyone who says they sound similar should get new speakers, headphones or visit a doctor to check ears


----------



## monsieurmickey (May 12, 2020)

Hello,

You can test this





VST Plugins, Synth Presets, Effects, Virtual Instruments, Music


VST Plugins, Synth Presets, Effects, Virtual Instruments, Music Plugins from Pluginboutique




www.pluginboutique.com





for the price I find these plugins very well.
you need an ilok account and the installation is long


----------



## Matt Damon (May 12, 2020)

I don't know if it's been said, but: I'd avoid "entry level" entirely.

Get the best, most useful, musical library you can right out of the gate. You will save yourself a lot of headaches and spending more money than you have to.


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## rudi (May 13, 2020)

The advice about getting the best, most useful library you can get right out of the gate is spot on.
However one of the issues I have found is that it's hard to find in advance what they are without being able to try them out.

I have spent far too much money on libraries which others highly recommended, only to find out they didn't suit my workflow at all.

This varied from how they were organised, which articulations were available, keyswitches / CC, how they responded dynamically to my playing (even when I adjusted the response, I would have had to either do if for each patch, or add a MIDI transformer / script to do so). I read reviews, watched countless demos, but none of that replaced hands-on experience. It's a bit different now because I have used more libraries and actually know what I want / need.

Another issue for me, which might not be a problem for you or others, is that some libraries simply offer too much choice. When I bought EWQLSO, I was very impressed by the demos. When it came to using it, I had no idea where to start due to my inexperience.

One point in case - something as simple as picking a celli section. First I had to choose between Long, Short, Effects, ModXfd, Keysw and Old Keysw folders, which is fair enough. But then within each folder, say ModFxd, I was presented with a list such as:

DXF Sus Acc Vel,
DXF Sus Vib Slow,
DXF Sus Vib,
Emotn DXF 1
Emotn DXF 2
Emotn DXF 3
Emotn DXF 4
..
and another 8 choices.

By then I almost lost the will to live, or at least compose and write music. Of course your experience could be very different from mine: lots and lots of people like / prefer that approach but it simply didn't suit me.

I also didn't understand why some patches responded only to velocity and others to a modulation wheel and why I couldn't alter it.

Over time I found that what I really needed was a library with a few, well chosen (from my viewpoint) choice of ensembles (for broad stroke composition) and individual sections (for more detailed work) with a core set of articulations that I use 80%-90% of the time, and could easily customise to my workflow, along with a few judiciously chosen mixes I could easily tweak.

Another rabbit hole I went down is the "wet" vs "dry" argument. I avidly followed a large number of discussions, where lots of well respected users advocated "dry" as it more flexible as they could could be blended with other libraries, or customised to taste. Well, it didn't work for me, because as I beginner I found it impossible to get the mixes I envisaged in my head and didn't have the expertise to arrive at those results. I also found I actually preferred "wet" libraries.

This is in no way a diatribe against any particular library, simply an example of how "best" is a hugely subjective issue. It is also a reason why I wish more developers offered trials, or why a subscription option is a good idea!


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 13, 2020)

rudi said:


> The advice about getting the best, most useful library you can get right out of the gate is spot on.
> However one of the issues I have found is that it's hard to find in advance what they are without being able to try them out.
> 
> I have spent far too much money on libraries which others highly recommended, only to find out they didn't suit my workflow at all.
> ...



Yep, I have felt a little like that from using EWQLSO. I really love the sounds, but there's so much choice... I think these sort of libraries take a long time to learn how to use from what I imagine. The learning curve is huge.


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## Geomir (May 13, 2020)

BronzeOrbiter said:


> Yep, I have felt a little like that from using EWQLSO. I really love the sounds, but there's so much choice... I think these sort of libraries take a long time to learn how to use from what I imagine. The learning curve is huge.


If you find that EWQLSO has a time consuming learning curve, then I think you can forget EWHO. It includes even more patches with names difficult to understand. No "butter legato" or "soft vibrato" names in EWHO.

Since people here started recommending libraries that cost $800 (see Steinberg Iconica), and since no one mentioned it yet, I would like to recommend Nucleus Core (normal price $450), as one of the best libraries to start (and even continue) with:






Nucleus (The Orchestral Core for Kontakt Player)


NOW UPDATED TO V1.3 WITH EVEN MORE CONTENT Working on the go? Nucleus preserves system resources while packing a mighty punch, with all the essentials of modern cinematic composition and an intuitive interface. Clean, compact, and easy-to-use, Nucleus is an all-in-one package that’s hard to...




www.audioimperia.com





Take your time to read the included instruments (it offers several solo and many sections and ensembles), check the demos and walkthroughs, I think it qualifies as one of the best starter libraries: it sounds very nice, it runs on the free Kontakt Player, it has a light footprint (about 20 GB), and a very beautiful, modern and user-friendly interface!


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## Piotrek K. (May 13, 2020)

I wouldn't start with EW Symphonic Orchestra (although I'd love to see new version of concert hall recorder library with true legato etc.). It's even messier than Hollywood one imo. And true legato makes tons of difference. Also in terms of workflow.


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## monsieurmickey (May 13, 2020)

I did not see the initial post directly. I have Sonivox, and on my computer it works fine.


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## peladio (May 13, 2020)

Matt Damon said:


> I don't know if it's been said, but: I'd avoid "entry level" entirely.
> 
> Get the best, most useful, musical library you can right out of the gate. You will save yourself a lot of headaches and spending more money than you have to.



Exactly this...I only heard Amadeus through my smartphone speakers but it's enough to hear it isn't in the same league as Hollywood Orchestra or BBC..

I have both Hollywood Orchestra and BBC and prefer Hollywood..$160 is an insane deal for what you get even though there is a learning curve..but worth it


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## RogiervG (May 13, 2020)

Workflow is an important factor too... kontakt vs e.g. play, SF Players, vsl VI or synchron player etc etc is one.. the other is: keyswitching every articulation, or adaptive legato and articulation switching based on e.g. velocity, modulation wheel, expression pedals etc...

e.g. some people dislike keyswitching constantly, others have no problems with them..

figure out your workflow and match libraries and players accordingly.


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## rrichard63 (May 13, 2020)

RogiervG said:


> figure out your workflow and match libraries and players accordingly.


Yes. But that's very hard for beginners to do except through experience. And that requires access to multiple libraries, each with a different design. (It also requires a lot of patience and persistence.) I would find EWQL's subscription plan a lot more appealing if their many competitors made the same offer. If that were true, you could spend a month of your time and $150, evaluate five developers in detail, and make a more intelligent choice for yourself. At the end of the month you wouldn't own anything, but you would be able to make a well-informed choice. And, I suspect, be money ahead in the long run. As it is, most of us end up making less informed choices.


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## Reid Rosefelt (May 13, 2020)

No recordings were done for Amadeus. The sounds all come from other developers who have allowed their samples to be used with the condition that their names not be used. The only thing we know about them is that they have been used on a ton of major movies and TV shows.

So far I have never heard anybody say, that is absolutely Garritan or Miroslav, or whatever. But they have to be combinations. The guitars are obviously Indiginus guitars, just as great-sounding as the Indiginus guitars that are in 2020 the very best in the business. The Symphony feature is pretty damn close to Solid State Symphony, which costs $59 today and will never be discounted. No, it's not exactly the same as SSS, but it provides the experience that have made SSS so beloved over the years.

As Amadeus usually sells for $99 on Black Friday, already I'm saying it's a good deal just for the Indiginus stuff.

The East West libraries sound better than Amadeus. No argument from me about that. But they are way, way, way harder to use. In fact for me, they are totally impossible to use, that's why I didn't buy them after trying them out on the Cloud. (I had many other libraries before that and could compare.) I don't have the knowledge to take advantage of all those options. That's why I suggested that the OP get Composer's Cloud and see for himself.

I have Silk and I think the sounds are great. It's a good library. But I didn't like the interface and that led me to use other instruments that were easier to play. And that's what I did until JEO came along and now I don't know if I'll ever use it again for Chinese instruments. Even the Bawu (in Silk, not in JEO) I use Efimov.

Options are great if you are knowledgable enough to know how to take advantage of them, like so many people in this forum. Silk may be nirvana for others, but for me, Silk was just clumsy. I wanted to play and it got in my way.

Only the OP knows what kind of person he is.

If you get Amadeus you can start making music in five seconds. It is in a class by itself as an easy-to-use learning library that allows a composer all the elements available. And I think it sounds pretty good too. So sue me.

When you want to take it to the next level, then you will have to decide whether you are a Spitfire person, a Cinematic Studio person, an Orchestral Tools person, or whatever suits you, in terms of sound and ease of use. Call me crazy but I don't think, with all the options available in 2020, East West is the very best you can buy in those two categories combined. And I would say the same for many other EW libraries, like their choirs and guitars. Very good, but maybe not the best offerings in 2020.

There's more than one way to talk about spending your money to future-proof. I say buy the inexpensive Amadeus and play. Take your time studying what musical eco-system (or systems) you want to join to build your orchestral library. And then pounce on sales!


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## RogiervG (May 13, 2020)

rrichard63 said:


> Yes. But that's very hard for beginners to do except through experience. And that requires access to multiple libraries, each with a different design. (It also requires a lot of patience and persistence.) I would find EWQL's subscription plan a lot more appealing if their many competitors made the same offer. If that were true, you could spend a month of your time and $150, evaluate five developers in detail, and make a more intelligent choice for yourself. At the end of the month you wouldn't own anything, but you would be able to make a well-informed choice. And, I suspect, be money ahead in the long run. As it is, most of us end up making less informed choices.


problem is, that if the eastwest (or any other for that matter, but majority here is suggesting the EW subscription) workflow doesn't suit a beginner.. he/she might be stopping the adventure of virtual orchestra composing all together. sure Demos sound brilliantly good.. but how to achieve that same kind of wall of musical lushness, if the library workflow puts you off? First impression often weights heavily in terms of motivation.

Not saying EW's workflow is bad per se.. no.. just pointing out that it's not a very modern workflow.
this can be a good or bad thing, depending on how your brain connects to certain workflows.


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## rrichard63 (May 13, 2020)

RogiervG said:


> problem is, that if the eastwest (or any other for that matter, but majority here is suggesting the EW subscription) workflow doesn't suit a beginner.. he/she might be stopping the adventure of virtual orchestra composing all together. ...


That's exactly why I wouldn't rely impressions gained from a one-month subscription to just one developer. But having several one-month subs for comparison could be very helpful.


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## sonicscores (May 13, 2020)

TigerTheFrog,

BTW, not all of the library was previously recorded. We recorded our own samples to fill in spots that we did not license and to replace samples that were not up to our standards. Thank you for the post about Amadeus.

And as stated above, Amadeus was designed to get you started right away with professional sounds. It was not designed to replace Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, etc.


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## Reid Rosefelt (May 13, 2020)

sonicscores said:


> TigerTheFrog,
> 
> BTW, not all of the library was previously recorded. We recorded our own samples to fill in spots that we did not license and to replace samples that were not up to our standards. Thank you for the post about Amadeus.
> 
> And as stated above, Amadeus was designed to get you started right away with professional sounds. It was not designed to replace Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, etc.


Sorry for the error. Thank you for making Amadeus. I am really happy I bought it and am getting a lot of use out of it.

And sometimes when I have a choice between everything I own for a piece--I choose something from Amadeus, because it works better than anything else. Recently it was the male choir.


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## sonicscores (May 13, 2020)

You are welcome.


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## Wally Garten (May 13, 2020)

Laptoprabbit said:


> VSCO Pro is within your budget and worth taking a look at -- brass and woodwinds are individual (Flute 1, Flute 2, etc), and includes string soloists. I like that it also has some more esoteric instruments and techniques that allow it remain useful down the road.
> 
> Included ensemble patches are also a lot of fun.
> 
> ...




One of my favorite purchases. Legato is only simulated, but you get a HUGE number of instruments, including some truly terrific brass and a family of recorders, and most come with multiple mic options. As the name implies, it's mostly suited to smaller pieces, but with tons of colors available. (And I agree, the multis are great fun.)


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## bill5 (May 13, 2020)

For those saying EW is so hard or unfriendly, do you think it's mostly if not entirely due to the excessive options available, or are there other ways the UI is lacking compared to the others?


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## Ashermusic (May 13, 2020)

bill5 said:


> For those saying EW is so hard or unfriendly, do you think it's mostly if not entirely due to the excessive options available, or are there other ways the UI is lacking compared to the others?




The good news is that there are so many choices. The bad news is that there are so many choices


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## bill5 (May 13, 2020)

Yes, but is that the only "difficult" thing about it? Or is the workflow not user-friendly in other ways?

And yes I realize you have a bias  (Though to your credit you seem to be good at stepping back and being objective)


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## MarcelM (May 13, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Yes, but is that the only "difficult" thing about it? Or is the workflow not user-friendly in other ways?
> 
> And yes I realize you have a bias  (Though to your credit you seem to be good at stepping back and being objective)



go a month with composer cloud and check "play" and HO for yourself. thats the best option i guess since opinions how hard something to use are different. fact is you cant get better sound quality for the money...


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## Land of Missing Parts (May 13, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Yes, but is that the only "difficult" thing about it? Or is the workflow not user-friendly in other ways?


The main reason I don't end up using my Hollywood Strings Gold is because they just take forever to load up, while every other library I own loads almost instantly. Same hard drive. 
EDIT: Problem solved by moving to a different drive. 

Also, I like using Kontakt-based libraries because I like using multiscripts, or going under the hood and doing my own modifications. That said, I don't think Play is all that bad. I just like it less than Kontakt. But still more than the Spitfire player.


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## bill5 (May 13, 2020)

Speaking of which, how does Kontakt itself and/or Komplete stack up? I don't think anyone has mentioned.


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## Piotrek K. (May 13, 2020)

> The main reason I don't end up using my Hollywood Strings Gold is because they just take forever to load up



You mentioned hard drive... You mean SSD, right? And have you excluded HWS folder from your firewall / Windows Defender?



> Yes, but is that the only "difficult" thing about it? Or is the workflow not user-friendly in other ways?



The other one would be inconsistent use of CCs. For some patches CC1 is vibrato, for some it's dynamics. But @ZenFaced did charts that sum things up pretty sweet






Articulation Chart for Hollywood Orchestra


I took the time to make a nice, clean articulation reference chart for Woodwinds, Brass and Strings. This is a big improvement to the last one I made so now everything is in color and easy to read format - 2 pages. First page is the general CC chart and the second page is for each orchestra...




vi-control.net


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 14, 2020)

Whoa, there seems a lot of differing opinion here! I think I've actually decided to stick with composer cloud, as it seems the best deal for the money for me. I found out I am actually eligible for student discount, which makes it an even better deal. Although I initially found it overwhelming, I think I've started to get the hang of it and I haven't really found it's hindered my workflow... I think the trick is just to not overthink which sounds to use at first, and just get composing! I think if i switched to Amadeus now I would honestly be disappointed (Although I'm sure it's a very good product), as I am also using the pianos and ethnic instruments from composer cloud which I absolutely _love. _Ideally I would love both Amadeus and CC!


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## mcalis (May 14, 2020)

@Land of Missing Parts do you have your folders in which the HWS sample data is stored excluded from your antivirus? I am running on Samsung 850 Evo SSDs and it takes a few seconds to load 12violin 1 articulations (including the full sustains, 13 layers patch and the full powerful legato patch). I also have the cache setting within play for the drive containing the HWS samples set to level 0. You might want to check that setting too (lower number = more is streamed from disk = less is loaded into ram = faster loading).

See:


@BronzeOrbiter Since you're using Composer Cloud, let me save you some potential headaches and dispel some myths about the play interface being hard or the naming convention being nonsensical: read the manuals! This goes especially for hollywood strings, brass, perc and winds. I can't recommend this highly enough. If you've never read any of the EW manuals, you might want to go through one entirely because the first 20 pages or so explain a bunch of stuff about the Play interface. After that, it gets more specific about articulations, which vary per library of course. Once you've read one, you might not even need to read any of the others, because there is a lot of overlap between them.

I know it might not sound particularly exciting to read the manuals, but they're seriously good. Not only do they explain everything quite well, I actually found them fun to read (trust me, that doesn't happen often with manuals). I can't recommend this highly enough, you'll get a lot more out of your subscription if you learn how to make the most effective use of the instruments.


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## AndyP (May 14, 2020)

The Hollywood Orchestra has a ton of different articulations, some of which only differ in that the controller control is slightly different.
It just takes longer to explore the differences of the many patches. And, you need a midi controller that you can configure to the right ccs. That's a bit of work for now.
So there are many patches where you can't control the dynamics with the modwheel, so you might think, oh, i can only play at the highest dynamic level. Solution: Study the controllers and find out which ones will do the job.
Once you find out which ones do the job, you'll quickly learn to appreciate the patches.
You will find features that many libraries don't have and the many dynamic levels and roundrobins are a lot of fun, especially if you use patches that fade from spiccato to marcato using the modwheel.

And you can't ignore the sound. What use is a library that is easy to control but doesn't sound good? True legato is a duty in my opinion.

IMO: Depending on the sound taste either Hollywood Orchestra or VSL Synchronized SE.
For the price these libraries are offered they are unrivalled.
EW Play is multitimbral, the Synchronized Player is not, you should also keep that in mind.
For both you don't need the Kontakt Full Version because they have their own players.

BBCSO Core costs more and offers quantitatively less choice, but sounds good out of the box if you like the sound. And the SFA Player is not multi-timbral either. To use BBSCO Core on 2 machines you need another hard drive, otherwise you will have trouble with repairs.
BBCSO and VSL, plug the dongle from one computer into the other, done.

The other alternatives like Nucleus or Red Room Audio Palette are more expensivee, but are an alternative in terms of sales. Palette only makes sense if you add the melodic extension, otherwise the legato patches are missing. They sound good and are easy to use. Kontakt Player is sufficient. Nucleus is limited in terms of articulations, so if you don't need e.g. string thrills, you'll be fine.

I would listen to the demos that sound the best in the direction you are looking for.
You can make music with all these libraries very well.


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 14, 2020)

mcalis said:


> @BronzeOrbiter Since you're using Composer Cloud, let me save you some potential headaches and dispel some myths about the play interface being hard or the naming convention being nonsensical: read the manuals! This goes especially for hollywood strings, brass, perc and winds. I can't recommend this highly enough. If you've never read any of the EW manuals, you might want to go through one entirely because the first 20 pages or so explain a bunch of stuff about the Play interface. After that, it gets more specific about articulations, which vary per library of course. Once you've read one, you might not even need to read any of the others, because there is a lot of overlap between them.
> 
> I know it might not sound particularly exciting to read the manuals, but they're seriously good. Not only do they explain everything quite well, I actually found them fun to read (trust me, that doesn't happen often with manuals). I can't recommend this highly enough, you'll get a lot more out of your subscription if you learn how to make the most effective use of the instruments.



I've been referring to the manuals often! They are really useful and helpful and explain everything from what I've found. Honestly the more I use it the easier I am finding it to use. It really doesn't seem hard at all once you know what you're doing and willing to put the time in to get over that initial learning curve.


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## Reid Rosefelt (May 14, 2020)

Maybe this is obvious, but while you're on Composer Cloud, make sure you spend some time with their excellent reverb, Spaces II.


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## Ric4001 (May 14, 2020)

AndyP said:


> To use BBSCO Core on 2 machines you need another hard drive, otherwise you will have trouble with repairs.


Can you elaborate on that? I was planning on buying BBSCO, loading it on one external SSD and using it on 2 computers. How does that create repair issues?


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## Ashermusic (May 14, 2020)

BronzeOrbiter said:


> I've been referring to the manuals often! They are really useful and helpful and explain everything from what I've found. Honestly the more I use it the easier I am finding it to use. It really doesn't seem hard at all once you know what you're doing and willing to put the time in to get over that initial learning curve.



Bingo. I have said this for years but people would say that it was only because I worked part time for EW. Now that I don’t and have not for two years, I still say the same thing.


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## Land of Missing Parts (May 14, 2020)

mcalis said:


> @Land of Missing Parts do you have your folders in which the HWS sample data is stored excluded from your antivirus? I am running on Samsung 850 Evo SSDs and it takes a few seconds to load 12violin 1 articulations (including the full sustains, 13 layers patch and the full powerful legato patch). I also have the cache setting within play for the drive containing the HWS samples set to level 0. You might want to check that setting too (lower number = more is streamed from disk = less is loaded into ram = faster loading).


Thanks. I think I fixed my loading issue by moving to a different drive. It's only taking a few seconds to load up VLN 1 (with 11 articulations) now.


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## bill5 (May 14, 2020)

mcalis said:


> I know it might not sound particularly exciting to read the manuals, but they're seriously good. Not only do they explain everything quite well, I actually found them fun to read (trust me, that doesn't happen often with manuals).


You are one sick puppy.  By definition that NEVER happens with a manual for me. Choosing between that and having a tooth pulled would not be easy.

Honestly given a choice between a good library where I have to read little if any of the manual and a really good one where I have to read a ton, I'll take Door #1 there Monty. Sure I want good sound quality and options, but I'm old and impatient and it's not like I'm writing a symphony. I get people who feel the opposite and that's cool. I'm not writing classical (or highly unlikely at least) or soundtracks, my needs are more as accompaniment for other genres. 

Of course as others have said it's hard to know until you really get into it. It might not be that bad as the OP said.


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## Ashermusic (May 14, 2020)

bill5 said:


> You are one sick puppy.  By definition that NEVER happens with a manual for me. Choosing between that and having a tooth pulled would not be easy.
> 
> Honestly given a choice between a good library where I have to read little if any of the manual and a really good one where I have to read a ton, I'll take Door #1 there Monty. Sure I want good sound quality and options, but I'm old and impatient and it's not like I'm writing a symphony. I get people who feel the opposite and that's cool. I'm not writing classical (or highly unlikely at least) or soundtracks, my needs are more as accompaniment for other genres.
> 
> Of course as others have said it's hard to know until you really get into it. It might not be that bad as the OP said.



In 1990 when I bought Atari Notator and some keyboards and tone modules to score “Zorro” all we _had_ were manuals. Somehow we learned.


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## mcalis (May 14, 2020)

bill5 said:


> You are one sick puppy.  By definition that NEVER happens with a manual for me. Choosing between that and having a tooth pulled would not be easy.
> 
> Honestly given a choice between a good library where I have to read little if any of the manual and a really good one where I have to read a ton, I'll take Door #1 there Monty. Sure I want good sound quality and options, but I'm old and impatient and it's not like I'm writing a symphony. I get people who feel the opposite and that's cool. I'm not writing classical (or highly unlikely at least) or soundtracks, my needs are more as accompaniment for other genres.
> 
> Of course as others have said it's hard to know until you really get into it. It might not be that bad as the OP said.


To each their own  I mostly enjoyed some of the background information about how everything was recorded.


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## Matt Damon (May 15, 2020)

Honestly, I don't really see why full-fledged manuals are even a thing in virtual instruments when you can take the Eduardo Tarilonte sort of approach and put the info right in the GUI and make the GUI as self-explanatory as possible. CS2 also is pretty self-explanatory and I don't even think it had a proper manual: Just a few paragraphs on the website.


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## ptram (May 15, 2020)

AndyP said:


> EW Play is multitimbral, the Synchronized Player is not, you should also keep that in mind.


With Vienna Player comes the free Vienna Ensemble, that makes the player multitimbral. I don't know if it is also available for owners of only libraries based on the Synchron Player.

Paolo


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## bill5 (May 15, 2020)

mcalis said:


> To each their own  I mostly enjoyed some of the background information about how everything was recorded.


I'm kinda jealous actually; I wish I could enjoy reading stuff like that, win/win


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## Dex (May 15, 2020)

BronzeOrbiter said:


> Whoa, there seems a lot of differing opinion here! I think I've actually decided to stick with composer cloud, as it seems the best deal for the money for me. I found out I am actually eligible for student discount, which makes it an even better deal. Although I initially found it overwhelming, I think I've started to get the hang of it and I haven't really found it's hindered my workflow... I think the trick is just to not overthink which sounds to use at first, and just get composing! I think if i switched to Amadeus now I would honestly be disappointed (Although I'm sure it's a very good product), as I am also using the pianos and ethnic instruments from composer cloud which I absolutely _love. _Ideally I would love both Amadeus and CC!


To be honest, if you get along well with HO, there's little if any reason to buy Amadeus.


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## bill5 (May 17, 2020)

No other experiences/thoughts on NI's stuff?


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## robcs (May 20, 2020)

nolotrippen said:


> Kirk Hunter Diamond $99: https://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/products/diamond-symphony-orchestra/


The problem is, Diamond only runs on the full version of Kontakt. I'm guessing if the OP is looking for a low-budget orchestra, they probably don't have Kontakt already and won't want to spend $400 on a player just so they can use a $99 library


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## nolotrippen (May 21, 2020)

robcs said:


> The problem is, Diamond only runs on the full version of Kontakt. I'm guessing if the OP is looking for a low-budget orchestra, they probably don't have Kontakt already and won't want to spend $400 on a player just so they can use a $99 library


good point, though Kontakt does have a lot of VSL instruments already there


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## RogiervG (May 21, 2020)

nolotrippen said:


> good point, though Kontakt does have a lot of VSL instruments already there


without proper scripting.


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## bill5 (May 25, 2020)

ism said:


> Amadeus is a learning tool. It lacks true legato samples, for example - which sometimes you can simulate passably, and sometimes you just can't.


Could you elaborate on that? How do you "simulate" legato? Also not sure what you mean by "true" legato-? So it has something approximating that or-?


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## Ashermusic (May 25, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Could you elaborate on that? How do you "simulate" legato? Also not sure what you mean by "true" legato-? So it has something approximating that or-?



Simulating can be done by either a script or by the way you play the part. True legato means they recorded transitions from notes to notes, recorded intervals.


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## ism (May 25, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Could you elaborate on that? How do you "simulate" legato? Also not sure what you mean by "true" legato-? So it has something approximating that or-?


I think the rule of thumb is that even once you’re done sampling the notes, sampling the legato intervals separately is ~10x as much work again. 

And while I suppose technically all sampling is ‘simulating’ I meant that instead of doing the sampling, libraries like this will use a script to pitchbend the samples into each other instead. And some people think it sounds fine.


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## bill5 (May 25, 2020)

Thanks to both. I just did what I should have done first and went to each site and listened to their videos  To me "legato" is really about how you play anyway and I thought either sounded fine. I also don't think the diff in quality between Amadeus and EW is night and day at all, though I get that EW gives you tons more options for more expressiveness. And on a glance the UI doesn't seem bad at all, it's just the thing of having SO many options and deciphering their top secret codes...I don't think Turing could crack that without a user manual lol


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## Petrucci (May 26, 2020)

It takes several hours to read the manuals for all the sections because there is some repeating info in each one - and you can skip those repeated parts easily after reading for the first time. It's very clear after reading what the patches names really mean. (and it really boils down to whether you want to use powerful patches or sacrifice some sound and expressivness and use some light patches)


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## BronzeOrbiter (May 26, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Thanks to both. I just did what I should have done first and went to each site and listened to their videos  To me "legato" is really about how you play anyway and I thought either sounded fine. I also don't think the diff in quality between Amadeus and EW is night and day at all, though I get that EW gives you tons more options for more expressiveness. And on a glance the UI doesn't seem bad at all, it's just the thing of having SO many options and deciphering their top secret codes...I don't think Turing could crack that without a user manual lol


Yeah from using EW the past few weeks, I haven't found the UI bad at all. Once you get to know the libraries and set up a template of some sort, it's easy and intuitive to use. Probably just takes a little longer to get there than other libraries like BBCSO.


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## tcollins (May 26, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Simulating can be done by either a script or by the way you play the part. True legato means they recorded transitions from notes to notes, recorded intervals.


Jay is right, and Amadeus uses a script to create it's legato effect.
In order to help create a flowing melodic line, the script fades the previous note out as it fades the new note in order to avoid overlapping note tails. There is also a subtle pitch bending element happening, although it's not as simple as sliding from one note to another, which can sound like a synth portamento. This took a lot of trial and error.

Although there can be a tradeoff for realism, there are actually a couple of advantages to scripted legato -
1. Performance, since the note transitions are usually faster than with sampled legato.
2. Much smaller library size and lower demand on computers. 

-TC


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