# How many of you don't use your OS drive at all?



## jsnleo (Mar 12, 2022)

I remember when I was in college, we were told not to use the OS drive at all. All the projects and samples should be on external drives. You should only install the OS and DAWs on the OS drive. I think nearly all my audio engineer friends do that, but I sometimes still forget. I wonder how many of you strictly do it this way, and really keep the OS drive clean?


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## vitocorleone123 (Mar 12, 2022)

That made sense for mechanical drives and I did that. With SSD and now m2 drives…. I stopped bothering. Most of my libraries aren’t on the OS drive simply due to space, though.


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## Nico5 (Mar 12, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> That made sense for mechanical drives and I did that. With SSD and now m2 drives…. I stopped bothering. Most of my libraries aren’t on the OS drive simply due to space, though.


isn’t m2 a form factor, unrelated to throughput?

Maybe you meant SATA3 vs NVMe, which represents a significant difference in throughput?


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## Hadrondrift (Mar 12, 2022)

This is an advice from the days of mechanical drives, I'd also say. But I still install the OS (Windows) together with the DAW and other tools in its own partition: I have partition C: for OS/DAW/tools, partition D: for samples and both partitions are on the same physical SSD.

Keeping the OS/DAW/tools on their own partition allows me to easily take a complete backup image without all those huge sample data files which are basically read only and never change.


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## rrichard63 (Mar 12, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> That made sense for mechanical drives and I did that. With SSD and now m2 drives…. I stopped bothering.


I don't think the issue is mechanical failure. I think one reason is wanting to divide data traffic across multiple sources/destinations to improve throughput. Unless I am mistaken that still applies.

Another issue has always been that system drives fail sooner than data drives on average. (I think this is mostly due to logical failure rather than physical failure.) It's somewhat easier to restore a system drive if it doesn't have a lot of user data on it.


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## Nico5 (Mar 12, 2022)

for minimum thinking required (with resulting errors creeping in) I’d put everything on a single large NVMe disk a and have a single backup strategy.

On a modern system performance should be just fine in the vast majority of use cases.

If full backups are taking too long, just break apart the backups by high level folders.


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## sostenuto (Mar 12, 2022)

rrichard63 said:


> I don't think the issue is mechanical failure. I think the main reason is wanting to divide data traffic across multiple sources/destinations to improve throughput. Unless I am mistaken that still applies.


NVMe not until new build late 2022.

Cloned SATA C:\ SSD from 500GB, to 1 GB, to 2TB __ to maintain minimum >10% space.

Program Files ~ 400GB __ Prg Files (x86) ~ 40GB __ PrgData ~ 121GB
Users\Public\ Docs ~ 69GB _ Users\_Name\_Docs ~ 40GB _ Users\_Name_\AppData ~ 110GB. 

What are _today's_ preferred xfrs from C:\ to maintain minimum size, and minimize routine access ? 

What NI /Native Access content must remain on C:\ ?  😳


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## gsilbers (Mar 12, 2022)

the way Apple is doing backups is a little wierd and the way it separates the os from user files. 
Most users don’t have 3tb of samples so in terms of the computer handling there is no reason m2 fast ssd can’t handle everything in one drive.

The issue is the backup, in the mac side at least for Monterrey.
Not sure in windows


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## vitocorleone123 (Mar 12, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> isn’t m2 a form factor, unrelated to throughput?
> 
> Maybe you meant SATA3 vs NVMe, which represents a significant difference in throughput?


Yes this.


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## KEM (Mar 12, 2022)

I’m a Mac user and I can’t stand having to use external drives or separate internal drives, it just gets too complicated for me, I just want one massive drive that literally everything is on, for me that’s the easiest way to go


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## jaketanner (Mar 12, 2022)

jsnleo said:


> I remember when I was in college, we were told not to use the OS drive at all. All the projects and samples should be on external drives. You should only install the OS and DAWs on the OS drive. I think nearly all my audio engineer friends do that, but I sometimes still forget. I wonder how many of you strictly do it this way, and really keep the OS drive clean?


100%...All samples and sessions are on externals. the OS drive is purely for programs and files that can't be installed on externals.


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## vitocorleone123 (Mar 12, 2022)

rrichard63 said:


> I don't think the issue is mechanical failure. I think one reason is wanting to divide data traffic across multiple sources/destinations to improve throughput. Unless I am mistaken that still applies.
> 
> Another issue has always been that system drives fail sooner than data drives on average. (I think this is mostly due to logical failure rather than physical failure.) It's somewhat easier to restore a system drive if it doesn't have a lot of user data on it.


Right- never said it was for mechanical failure, though that factored in. I’m talking throughput.

I’d be surprised if anyone is saturating an nvme drive with Kontakt, since it has about a 3gbps+ throughput (read). When I eventually get a 4tb nvme (1tb now), I’ll get rid of the SSD the libraries are on and have everything on one drive.

Backups are easy and fast with intelligent and automatic incremental backups - static stuff won’t get backed up unless it changes.

I used to have so many physical and virtual drives. I’ve found computer life easier with as few as possible, and zero issues as well with performance.


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## jaketanner (Mar 12, 2022)

KEM said:


> I’m a Mac user and I can’t stand having to use external drives or separate internal drives, it just gets too complicated for me, I just want one massive drive that literally everything is on, for me that’s the easiest way to go


That is a danger zone waiting to happen. If that drive fails, you're dead in the water. I would strongly suggest to split things up between drives and have at least 1-2 B.U.s. Also, if it does fail and you need to recover things, the cost of doing so will be very expensive since they charge by the gig.


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## vitocorleone123 (Mar 12, 2022)

jaketanner said:


> That is a danger zone waiting to happen. If that drive fails, you're dead in the water. I would strongly suggest to split things up between drives and have at least 1-2 B.U.s. Also, if it does fail and you need to recover things, the cost of doing so will be very expensive since they charge by the gig.


No need to split anything up if you’re doing proper backup procedures.

I have a primary and secondary NAS for drive backups and long term idle library storage, plus cloud for file backups (eg documents, photos, songs). Things are backing up every hour - but only what’s been changed. And once per month it makes a fresh full backup, merging the incrementals.

I use Macrium Reflect (paid) for the NAS and Arq backup for the cloud.


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## KEM (Mar 12, 2022)

jaketanner said:


> That is a danger zone waiting to happen. If that drive fails, you're dead in the water. I would strongly suggest to split things up between drives and have at least 1-2 B.U.s. Also, if it does fail and you need to recover things, the cost of doing so will be very expensive since they charge by the gig.



I’m willing to take that risk…


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## rdomain (Mar 12, 2022)

All programs and project files are on the os drive but all my sample libraries/samples are on an external SSD. As for backup, I use the timemachine as a default plus an online backup service for worst case scenario.

My project files eventually get archived on an external too.


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## LA68 (Mar 12, 2022)

I'm hardly a professional, but I always split it up. Additionally I always have one backup drive for all my files, it's unlikely that both fail at the same time. The samples are on a cheap external 120 GB SSD. Think I paid like 19 EUR for it, and it gets the job done just fine. Should anything ever break I unplug the SSD and my iLok and move over to my work PC or laptop, get the last backup'd version of whatever project I was working on and continue.


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## charlieclouser (Mar 12, 2022)

I've never used the OS drive for any samples or projects, mostly because of capacity issues. It wasn't until very recently that Apple boot drives came in large enough sizes to hold just my EXS / Logic Sampler stuff which is around 3tb these days. So for nearly 20 years I've used an alias in the default location that points to a folder on another drive that holds the EXS stuff. For years I could handle all that stuff on four internal drives in the old cheese grater Mac Pro, and since switching to the Mac Pro cylinder I've used eight SSD drives in a pair of BlackMagic MultiDocks. 

The only non-OS, non-App files I keep on my OS drive are presets and sample content for Omnisphere, and of course all of my preset files for soft synths and plugins. No Kontakt / Spitfire / Sine / Vienna / Falcon libraries, they're all on external drives. This is not a workflow problem at all. Easier to keep track of stuff actually, since things aren't buried in Documents>Audio Music Apps>Native Instruments>User Settings or wherever. 

I've never had any of my external drives fail to mount or cause any workflow issues just because they're external, so that is not something to be concerned about. Plus, I like having separate drives as it makes backups and organization easier and more clear. I suppose that if all of my project files and sample libraries could fit on the OS drive then I could use some sort of automatic backup system that might make things a little simpler.

But I don't use Time Machine and I don't trust any backup operation that might encapsulate backups into any proprietary container files or whatever. I've had some issues with that sort of thing in the past, although it was 25+ years ago, so maybe I'm being paranoid. But since I like to have multiple copies of my backup volumes and rotate their physical location, it is often the case that I'll do a complete backup, exchange the backup drives with an earlier set that are stored off-site, and then need to backup to that older set. So that can create issues with all but the most advanced and sophisticated backup software, and it's easier for me to just use synchronization software to compare my work drives against whatever backup set is currently mounted, and not worry about the backup software doing something I reaaaalllyyy don't want - like if it finds that files are present on the backup set that are missing from the work set, it might want to copy those files back to the work set, even though I've deleted them on purpose. Of if folders have been renamed on the work set but contain the same files as on the backup, then that's another case where full-manual control is the only answer for me.

And these things could happen literally thousands of times per backup, so I prefer to just manually handle things on a folder-by-folder basis using synchronization software. That way all the backups are completely agnostic in terms of what the original drive they came from was. If I had to start over on a new planet, a quick trip to the Apple Store at Mars Central Station for a new computer, mount the backup set, and start working. No "The original drive could not be found" or any funny business.


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## vitocorleone123 (Mar 12, 2022)

I don't mind proprietary for image backups to restore the computer (ie Macrium Reflect for my Windows PC) - it works amazingly well, even if I were to get new hardware. They used to suck a long time ago. The current tech is much more reliable in terms of backups.

I also use file backup where Arq just copies the documents to the Cloud - nothing proprietary (except for some I do encrypt) for the file backup. Both use a "did this file change from the last time I tried to make a backup" logic.

I'm not making a living off my music. I'd definitely involve more offsite-not-Cloud backups/working external drives if I was (though I'd want some of it to be an offsite NAS or two, but I'd still have disconnected and shielded drives somewhere).

There may be inefficiencies in your backup process but... who cares, as long as it works and you've thought through some failure scenarios. Do what works for you so you don't have to think about it, but just do it.


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## KEM (Mar 12, 2022)

I’ve never once backed up my computer, when my Mac Studio gets here I was just gonna use Migration Assistant to clone my entire computer over and just be done with it


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## Hywel (Mar 12, 2022)

KEM said:


> I’ve never once backed up my computer, when my Mac Studio gets here I was just gonna use Migration Assistant to clone my entire computer over and just be done with it


Do you not make copies of anything? You'll only have to lose a drive once to lose everything...


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## PaulieDC (Mar 13, 2022)

jsnleo said:


> I remember when I was in college, we were told not to use the OS drive at all. All the projects and samples should be on external drives. You should only install the OS and DAWs on the OS drive. I think nearly all my audio engineer friends do that, but I sometimes still forget. I wonder how many of you strictly do it this way, and really keep the OS drive clean?


That's me definitely, been running like that for a long time even before MIDI composition when I was doing photography and video. The reason back then was putting video on separate 7200 rpm drives to stream faster, but also, if you put NO user files (other than the stuff software sticks in your Documents folder), a C drive crash or botched Windows upgrade won't touch your files. NOW it's a no-brainer, I have separate NVMe drives for sample libraries. So when I build a PC I always get a 500GB drive and never fill more than 50% of it. I also dedicate an SSD for OneDrive, I don't keep that on the C drive either. The reason is Windows... it makes your Doc and photo folders as part of your user profile and when the bloats out it affects performance.


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## Elrik Settee (Mar 13, 2022)

"But I don't use Time Machine"

TM is for recovery of the odd file, it's not arobust backup. On a Mac, you need Carbon Copy Cloner.

"Backup don't f**kup!"


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## BigMal (Mar 13, 2022)

I'm not sure what the concerns are with Time Machine? I've relied on it for years, and it's never failed me. I have a separate backup hard drive that I backup manually on a monthly basis, that isn't connected to the main disk, and I have another backup disk that is constantly connected, and is backed up hourly by Time Machine, including my SSDs. It works well: I never have to think about it and it's saved me a few times, once especially after a hard drive failure. What issues should I be aware of that people aren't recommending Time Machine?

There are 2 types of people: those who back up, and those who will learn they should've backed up. Having been the latter, I advise you to join me in the former!


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## Elrik Settee (Mar 13, 2022)

BigMal said:


> I'm not sure what the concerns are with Time Machine? I've relied on it for years, and it's never failed me. I have a separate backup hard drive that I backup manually on a monthly basis, that isn't connected to the main disk, and I have another backup disk that is constantly connected, and is backed up hourly by Time Machine, including my SSDs. It works well: I never have to think about it and it's saved me a few times, once especially after a hard drive failure. What issues should I be aware of that people aren't recommending Time Machine?
> 
> There are 2 types of people: those who back up, and those who will learn they should've backed up. Having been the latter, I advise you to join me in the former!


just google this... "why time machine sucks for cloning"


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## seclusion3 (Mar 13, 2022)

Long long time ago in a pc, lost my drive, couldn't repair the drive, only had one, back then it was with Logic (yes really). What made it especially difficult was I had Adats, locked to Smpte, snapshots of my old mixer settings etc. Anyways, it was all lost, . So now, on my Mac, the OS n apps are on one drive, I have a partition of 256 GB and have approx 160 GB used. That gets backed up weekly or more if theres a lot of work. I do have samples on another volume, same drive. but for backup, im worried only of the OS. More Samples and Audio are on separate drives as well. Until u have a failure, having backups seems silly. When I move to a Mac Studio maybe next fall, I’m inclined to do my first fresh install, all apps, plugs n softsyths. Only install Arm ones that are ready.


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## rrichard63 (Mar 13, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Right- never said it was for mechanical failure, though that factored in. I’m talking throughput.
> 
> I’d be surprised if anyone is saturating an nvme drive with Kontakt, since it has about a 3gbps+ throughput (read). ...


Okay, that makes sense. I guess I stand corrected.


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## RobbertZH (Mar 13, 2022)

I have a separate drive for:
C: OS and all programs (incl. music applications)
D: My Documents (incl. Cubase projects and other music related project files)
E: All libraries (incl. Kontakt, UVI, GForce, Spitfire, XLN, etc)

I make a partition image backup about once a month of the C drive with the OS and applications (or sooner if I bought and installed new music applications around black friday  ) This cost me about 30 minutes.

I make an automatic daily backup of the D drive (with My Documents and Cubase project files). This takes about 1 or 2 minutes.

I only make a backup of the E drive (with all of my libraries) if I bought and installed new ones. This is a big drive, so I do not want to create an image backup and neither a daily backup. That would cost way to much time.

So the whole splitting up on which drive you store which files makes sense especially for backup purposes.


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## vitocorleone123 (Mar 13, 2022)

RobbertZH said:


> I have a separate drive for:
> C: OS and all programs (incl. music applications)
> D: My Documents (incl. Cubase projects and other music related project files)
> E: All libraries (incl. Kontakt, UVI, GForce, Spitfire, XLN, etc)
> ...


It really doesn't have to take much time each day to back up multiple terabytes on one drive (or multiple) in practice - because, in practice, very few of those files change. With the right software and hardware, it's mere minutes per day most days to make incremental backups, and it's all automated. I never actually initiate a backup myself. Once per month the full backup runs overnight on a weekend when I'm asleep and takes a couple hours (I use an incremental+differential+full backup scheme).

I don't have my libraries or samples back up every day because I have all of them already also sitting on my NAS as files in case I want to add/remove any from my computer locally.

After building and maintaining Windows PCs for decades, my goal is a single large nvme in my local computer with one single drive letter. Along with the 2 NAS in the basement, and the Cloud. Fast, easy, convenient, without having to think where anything is or whether it's backed up or not. I'm getting closer to that goal.


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## KEM (Mar 13, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> It really doesn't have to take much time each day to back up multiple terabytes on one drive (or multiple) in practice - because, in practice, very few of those files change. With the right software and hardware, it's mere minutes per day most days to make incremental backups, and it's all automated. I never actually initiate a backup myself. Once per month the full backup runs overnight on a weekend when I'm asleep and takes a couple hours (I use an incremental+differential+full backup scheme).
> 
> I don't have my libraries or samples back up every day because I have all of them already also sitting on my NAS as files in case I want to add/remove any from my computer locally.
> 
> After building and maintaining Windows PCs for decades, my goal is a single large nvme in my local computer with one single drive letter. Along with the 2 NAS in the basement, and the Cloud. Fast, easy, convenient, without having to think where anything is or whether it's backed up or not. I'm getting closer to that goal.



So should I just get a massive external drive and just my entire system to it, and then do periodic backups to keep it up to date? I don’t mind doing that honestly, seems like much less of a hassle than having multiple drives to keep track of


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## vitocorleone123 (Mar 13, 2022)

KEM said:


> So should I just get a massive external drive and just my entire system to it, and then do periodic backups to keep it up to date? I don’t mind doing that honestly, seems like much less of a hassle than having multiple drives to keep track of


Ideally, yes.

Also, ideally it would be to a device that has at least 2 separate, physical drives inside it that mirror one another in case one of the drives fails (more important for mechanical drives). I use a low-end NAS for this over my 1 gig wired network - more expensive and harder to setup, though. There are desktop type devices that connect over USB or whatnot that contain 2 drives in them and aren't mini-computers with an OS like a NAS.

If possible, I'd also backup critical files to the Cloud - encrypted as needed.

All automated. So annoying at first to get things set, and then you shouldn't have to think about it again unless something goes wrong.

I'm with you on not having to keep track of drives! I'm just not there yet. I think the worst was years ago with 6 mechanical drives in my computer, each divided into 2 or 3 logical drives. Nightmare!


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## sostenuto (Mar 13, 2022)

Will 'Backup' (Acronis /Macrium /et al) to external drive truly bring back C:\ full functionality _ just as clone does ?


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## KEM (Mar 13, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Ideally, yes.
> 
> Also, ideally it would be to a device that has at least 2 separate, physical drives inside it that mirror one another in case one of the drives fails (more important for mechanical drives). I use a low-end NAS for this over my 1 gig wired network - more expensive and harder to setup, though. There are desktop type devices that connect over USB or whatnot that contain 2 drives in them and aren't mini-computers with an OS like a NAS.
> 
> ...



What makes the most sense to me is to have everything on the internal drive that the Mac comes with, as I have it now, and then have an external drive and do a 1:1 clone of the Mac’s internal on it and just periodically back it up so it’s up to date. When my Mac Studio comes I’ll just be using Migration Assistant to move everything over as I’m sure that’s the easiest and most convenient way to do it, but if you all are encouraging me to back up my data I wouldn’t mind having an external for that purpose

But I will NEVER use an external for sample libraries or anything like that, just doesn’t make sense to me at all and sounds like a hassle more than anything


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## Hadrondrift (Mar 13, 2022)

@sostenuto Yes, if for instance you create an image of your operating system C:\ partition with Macrium Reflect, which you can create even in the background while working on the system (VSS technology), this image can be restored later and the fully working system at C:\ will look exactly as it did when you created the image. It is like a jump backwards in time. I did this a few times by myself and it worked flawlessly.


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## KEM (Mar 13, 2022)

Hadrondrift said:


> @sostenuto Yes, if for instance you create an image of your operating system C:\ partition with Macrium Reflect, which you can create even in the background while working on the system (VSS technology), this image can be restored later and the fully working system at C:\ will look exactly as it did when you created the image. It is like a jump backwards in time. I did this a few times by myself and it worked flawlessly.



Even on Mac?


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## Hadrondrift (Mar 13, 2022)

Sorry, I'm a Windows guy (historical reasons ), no idea if this works the same way on Macs, but I would guess so.


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## jbuhler (Mar 13, 2022)

KEM said:


> What makes the most sense to me is to have everything on the internal drive that the Mac comes with, as I have it now, and then have an external drive and do a 1:1 clone of the Mac’s internal on it and just periodically back it up so it’s up to date. When my Mac Studio comes I’ll just be using Migration Assistant to move everything over as I’m sure that’s the easiest and most convenient way to do it, but if you all are encouraging me to back up my data I wouldn’t mind having an external for that purpose
> 
> But I will NEVER use an external for sample libraries or anything like that, just doesn’t make sense to me at all and sounds like a hassle more than anything


Yes, 1 to 1 clone of the whole thing. Anything that is not easily recoverable from elsewhere I like to keep in the cloud as well, though offsite backup also works, and for many is a better solution. For most commercial sample libraries you don’t need to back up off site because you can download them again, but anything that I can’t easily replace gets stored in the cloud as well. Since I have multiple computers the cloud storage is also the easiest way to keep the files I use on all machines synchronized.


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## JohnG (Mar 13, 2022)

I also have a set of backups offsite that I rotate, as @charlieclouser is doing. Naturally, the minute they leave the house they start to get out of date, but it's better than starting over.

Using AOMEI for Windows 10 computers, Carbon Copy Cloner for the Mac drives. Multiple drives are of course slightly more complicated to back up, but once you have it set up it "just works" for the most part.

Time Machine has worked fine for me for non-music computers (laptops, family Macs).


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## sostenuto (Mar 13, 2022)

Hadrondrift said:


> @sostenuto Yes, if for instance you create an image of your operating system C:\ partition with Macrium Reflect, which you can create even in the background while working on the system (VSS technology), this image can be restored later and the fully working system at C:\ will look exactly as it did when you created the image. It is like a jump backwards in time. I did this a few times by myself and it worked flawlessly.


THX ! 😊
Using Acronis Cyber Protect Home for long time, but steadily disillusioned. 
_Even with paid time left_, leaning to Macrium Reflect for assured safety. Use of Macrium Free has been impressive and consistent, for cloning so far.


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## KEM (Mar 13, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> Yes, 1 to 1 clone of the whole thing. Anything that is not easily recoverable from elsewhere I like to keep in the cloud as well, though offsite backup also works, and for many is a better solution. For most commercial sample libraries you don’t need to back up off site because you can download them again, but anything that I can’t easily replace gets stored in the cloud as well. Since I have multiple computers the cloud storage is also the easiest way to keep the files I use on all machines synchronized.



Are you using iCloud, Dropbox, Google Drive? I’ve always used iCloud for my iPhone but I’ve actually never used cloud storage on a computer before


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## cleverr1 (Mar 13, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> Will 'Backup' (Acronis /Macrium /et al) to external drive truly bring back C:\ full functionality _ just as clone does ?


Image Backup yes... but I'd recommend testing this by doing a real disaster recovery test when you provision a new system prior to spending weeks configuring it.

On my DAW machine I take weekly full backups and daily incrementals of C: and documents. My audio folder is on D: which is mirrored, and I have a mirrored E: drive where the backups live. Most of my samples are on external SSDs. When they break I'll need to download the libraries again. My o/s drive is just 500GB and I have 10TB of internal mirrored HDDs and a further 9TB of external SSDs.

My VE Pro server currently has zero backups and zero resilience. I'm still building it and I should've followed the advice I'm giving here about doing a proper DR test @ day 1. I like it when people post these questions because it makes one think about how to improve one's own mess . This one's easy - I need another copy of Acronis and to plug in a USB drive then capture the o/s drive image and anything I've saved from VE Pro.

Of course whilst this offers a DR plan against failures it doesn't help at all with natural disasters, fires or burglaries!


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## vitocorleone123 (Mar 13, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> THX ! 😊
> Using Acronis Cyber Protect Home for long time, but steadily disillusioned.
> _Even with paid time left_, leaning to Macrium Reflect for assured safety. Use of Macrium Free has been impressive and consistent, for cloning so far.


I used Acronis for many years up until about 7 years ago when, sometime during Windows 7 timeframe, I had a drive failure. And Acronis failed to restore things (luckily I had some key files backed up separately, like photos, etc.). I swore to never use them again  Found the less-friendly, more reliable Macrium software and have never looked back. And, yes, I've restored a couple times, both files and complete image. You do want to keep a rescue disk updated when you update the backup software, but even with an outdated rescue disk I was able to restore a backup. I also use the rescue-disk-built-in feature even though it makes booting slightly longer, and sometimes remember to make a CD disk from time to time.

I recommend Macrium to anyone currently using Acronis because reliability of backups is more important than interface usability, though, as a UX pro, I'd prefer both together! I'd suggest paying for Macrium Home and getting the added features. It's not much money when on sale compared to Kontakt libraries, and you also get 40%+ discounts on new versions.

I use Arq Backup to backup to Google Drive, encrypting some document type files locally before they get uploaded to Google Drive (the local encryption is key). There's other software that can do this.

I believe TimeMachine can do image backups as well as the usual file, but TBD. I only ever used file backups because it was an extra laptop situation, not critical.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 13, 2022)

KEM said:


> I’m a Mac user and I can’t stand having to use external drives or separate internal drives, it just gets too complicated for me, I just want one massive drive that literally everything is on, for me that’s the easiest way to go


What happens if that drive fails?


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## KEM (Mar 13, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> What happens if that drive fails?



Probably just kill myself I guess lol

But really I’m not opposed to having an external drive to do a 1:1 clone of my Mac, I just don’t want externals for sample libraries and all that


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## sostenuto (Mar 13, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I used Acronis for many years up until about 7 years ago when, sometime during Windows 7 timeframe, I had a drive failure. And Acronis failed to restore things (luckily I had some key files backed up separately, like photos, etc.). I swore to never use them again  Found the less-friendly, more reliable Macrium software and have never looked back. And, yes, I've restored a couple times, both files and complete image. You do want to keep a rescue disk updated when you update the backup software, but even with an outdated rescue disk I was able to restore a backup. I also use the rescue-disk-built-in feature even though it makes booting slightly longer, and sometimes remember to make a CD disk from time to time.
> 
> I recommend Macrium to anyone currently using Acronis because reliability is more important than interface usability. I'd suggest paying for Macrium Home and getting the added features. It's not much money when on sale compared to Kontakt libraries, and you also get 40%+ discounts on new versions.
> 
> ...


Appreciate Macrium reference and likely changing. 
Recently tried several alternatives, and was also impressed with Paragon Backup & Recovery 17. Their Trial version accomplished C:\ Clone nicely after some other 'trials' were quite limited, or failed after lengthy attempts. 

Recent Cloud usage limited, yet a likely future direction. 
Major focus remains C:\ backup, with very large, paid program /FX content, going back decades. 

Regards


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## jbuhler (Mar 13, 2022)

KEM said:


> Are you using iCloud, Dropbox, Google Drive? I’ve always used iCloud for my iPhone but I’ve actually never used cloud storage on a computer before


I use both Dropbox and a university supplied Box account for backing up documents. (Many university documents have to live on Box for FERPA and other regulatory reasons.) Backups of Logic projects all live on Dropbox. Most of my scholarship and course documents now live on Dropbox as well because I can access them from whatever machine I’m on. (I also have local copies.) I use iCloud for the Notes app but only because it makes syncing all the devices easy. I also have some things on Google drive for wider sharing but that’s not really about backup or syncing. 

I also have time machine backups and clones of all machines.


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## robgb (Mar 13, 2022)

KEM said:


> I’m a Mac user and I can’t stand having to use external drives or separate internal drives, it just gets too complicated for me, I just want one massive drive that literally everything is on, for me that’s the easiest way to go


Why is it complicated? It's plug and play.


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## RogiervG (Mar 13, 2022)

A reason to not install it on the "OS" drive is, because of keeping the data in case you need to reinstall. (sure you could do partitions, but there is a reasonable chance you will accidentally remove/delete that partition during the setup phase of the OS)
By separating it on a physically different drives, you can easily reinstall the OS on the drive, without loosing the user data (e.g. samples, projects, etc). 
I do so.. and well, it works nicely. 
1TB OS SSD (also for apps like DAWS etc)
1TB userdata SSD (e.g. Cubase projects, documents, etc etc)
2TB sample and plugins SSD.

Backups are done via other means... (outside of the scope)


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## KEM (Mar 13, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> I use both Dropbox and a university supplied Box account for backing up documents. (Many university documents have to live on Box for FERPA and other regulatory reasons.) Backups of Logic projects all live on Dropbox. Most of my scholarship and course documents now live on Dropbox as well because I can access them from whatever machine I’m on. (I also have local copies.) I use iCloud for the Notes app but only because it makes syncing all the devices easy. I also have some things on Google drive for wider sharing but that’s not really about backup or syncing.
> 
> I also have time machine backups and clones of all machines.



That sounds like a lot to keep track of!! Not saying I couldn’t do it but I’m also looking for the easiest way out, I could do Dropbox and just upload everything on my computer to it


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 13, 2022)

KEM said:


> Probably just kill myself I guess lol
> 
> But really I’m not opposed to having an external drive to do a 1:1 clone of my Mac, I just don’t want externals for sample libraries and all that


Why not get an external just for sample libraries? That way you have them a intact in case your OS drive bites it…..plus you’re not chewing up valuable drive space and creating unnecessary wear. Having an external(s) is very easy to incorporate.


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## KEM (Mar 13, 2022)

robgb said:


> Why is it complicated? It's plug and play.





Jeremy Spencer said:


> Why not get an external just for sample libraries? That way you have them a intact in case your OS drive bites it…..plus you’re not chewing up valuable drive space and creating unnecessary wear. Having an external(s) is very easy to incorporate.



Because I’d have to buy multiple drives, and then I’d have to buy usb hubs to hold all the drives, and then I’d have to organize all the drives, and if I went anywhere I’d have to bring all the drives and usb hubs wherever I go, it just sounds like a nuisance to me. Plus almost all of my sample libraries are already on a PC that’s running VEP, the Mac just has Cubase, all my synths and effects, and a few niche sample libraries that I load in if I need them, the main orchestral stuff is all on the PC so that’s basically one big external drive in my eyes


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## JohnG (Mar 13, 2022)

cleverr1 said:


> Of course whilst this offers a DR plan against failures it doesn't help at all with natural disasters, fires or burglaries!


That's the reason to have a third backup at the bank in a safe deposit box. If the whole city goes up, then I guess that could be lost too. In that scenario, however, getting backups might not be top priority.


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## jonnybutter (Mar 13, 2022)

If I could afford it I would get a huge drive on my next Mac (a studio), but I can’t justify the cost. It’s not a technical problem. That $2k is better used elsewhere for me.


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## KEM (Mar 13, 2022)

jonnybutter said:


> If I could afford it I would get a huge drive on my next Mac (a studio), but I can’t justify the cost. It’s not a technical problem. That $2k is better used elsewhere for me.



I got the 4tb, more than enough for me


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## jaketanner (Mar 13, 2022)

KEM said:


> I’m willing to take that risk…


I guess if you're working for yourself that's fine, but if you have clients sessions on there...that's definitely not worth the risk..but good luck


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## vitocorleone123 (Mar 13, 2022)

KEM said:


> I got the 4tb, more than enough for me


For simple backups, I'd consider something like the Western Digital MyBook Duo (has 2 drives default config for performance, so before using you'd want to configure it for redundancy/mirroring). Maybe there's something ideal for Mac that's even better?

The more expensive, more flexible route is a Synology Diskstation DS418 + 2 large Western Digital Red drives (can add 2 more in the near future, or just get all 4).


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## KEM (Mar 13, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> For simple backups, I'd consider something like the Western Digital MyBook Duo (has 2 drives default config for performance, so before using you'd want to configure it for redundancy/mirroring). Maybe there's something ideal for Mac that's even better?



I’ll take a look and see if I can find anything


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## KEM (Mar 13, 2022)

jaketanner said:


> I guess if you're working for yourself that's fine, but if you have clients sessions on there...that's definitely not worth the risk..but good luck



Yeah that’s a good point, I’m fine with making a clone of my entire hard drive


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## robgb (Mar 13, 2022)

KEM said:


> Because I’d have to buy multiple drives, and then I’d have to buy usb hubs to hold all the drives, and then I’d have to organize all the drives, and if I went anywhere I’d have to bring all the drives and usb hubs wherever I go, it just sounds like a nuisance to me. Plus almost all of my sample libraries are already on a PC that’s running VEP, the Mac just has Cubase, all my synths and effects, and a few niche sample libraries that I load in if I need them, the main orchestral stuff is all on the PC so that’s basically one big external drive in my eyes


You're overcomplicating matters. Just get one large SSD drive and plug it in. Done.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 13, 2022)

robgb said:


> You're overcomplicating matters. Just get one large SSD drive and plug it in. Done.


Even just buy a large, inexpensive 2.5 SSD and house it in a $15 enclosure…I’ve been working like that for quite awhile with zero issues.


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## KEM (Mar 13, 2022)

robgb said:


> You're overcomplicating matters. Just get one large SSD drive and plug it in. Done.





Jeremy Spencer said:


> Even just buy a large, inexpensive 2.5 SSD and house it in a $15 enclosure…I’ve been working like that for quite awhile with zero issues.



Maybe one day…


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## sostenuto (Mar 13, 2022)

KEM said:


> Maybe one day…


Recent add was 18TB La Cie d2 external HDD _ with USB C - USB 3.1 Gen 2. Very pleased thus far. Dwarfs earlier Seagate 8TB NAS. Several smaller capacities available.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1624245-REG/lacie_stha18000800_18tb_d2_professional_usb.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAybaRBhDtARIsAIEG3kl0ClY49HcCmMVS9TvrDjV2lzf0XtpxvHP-6UzRXBopiq51Z7TUyvEaAtwyEALw_wcB


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## jsnleo (Mar 13, 2022)

Thanks guys. Could please someone explain to me why with SSDs it doesn't matter? It was only a few years ago and Apple were already using SSDs. I think, iirc, he said your other files would interfere with the OS files.

My internal drive is pretty much empty, and taking external drives every time is pretty tiresome. You need iLok, eLicenser, usb hubs, and at least one or two external drives. When you forget, you can't open the project, better yet, you can open it but no sounds...


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## vitocorleone123 (Mar 13, 2022)

jsnleo said:


> Thanks guys. Could please someone explain to me why with SSDs it doesn't matter? It was only a few years ago and Apple were already using SSDs. I think, iirc, he said your other files would interfere with the OS files.
> 
> My internal drive is pretty much empty, and taking external drives every time is pretty tiresome. You need iLok, eLicenser, usb hubs, and at least one or two external drives. When you forget, you can't open the project, better yet, you can open it but no sounds...


Why what doesn't matter with SSDs?

As far as reliability, SSDs have no moving parts, so they're overall more reliable than mechanical drives, but still have failures.

As for using multiple virtual drives (e.g., partitioning a single physical drive into more than one logical drive), people are free to do that if it helps them organize the way they want to organize things as a choice, but it's not a requirement/there's no penalty for not doing it, in terms of performance (in most conditions) or backup. However, performance of SSDs is positively correlated to the technology level of the platform they're connected into - if you connected an SSD via ATA somehow to an old Core2, the performance is going to suffer.


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## cedricm (Mar 13, 2022)

jsnleo said:


> I remember when I was in college, we were told not to use the OS drive at all. All the projects and samples should be on external drives. You should only install the OS and DAWs on the OS drive. I think nearly all my audio engineer friends do that, but I sometimes still forget. I wonder how many of you strictly do it this way, and really keep the OS drive clean?


I do. One of the reasons being that the OS/app drive always end up with near zero free capacity anyway. 
Preferring desktop computers, I'm using many internal drives in addition to external drives that I can share with my laptop.


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## Paj (Mar 13, 2022)

Everything charlieclouser said plus: invest in at least one dual-bay/standalone-duplicator that is spec'd for online and offline high TB usage/cloning. They maybe the least-expensive pieces of *ss-saving hardware on the market, even if (maybe especially because) you have automatic and/or cloud backup software---and especially if you have large TB storage issues. My worst case issue: I came back the next day to a walk-away restoration.

Paj
8^)


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## HCMarkus (Mar 14, 2022)

KEM said:


> Maybe one day…


The day to start keeping a backup is yesterday*

KEM, I understand you will be keeping everything on your new Mac's internal SSD. There's nothing wrong with that. Splitting data files from OS drive used to be a good practice; it still works fine, but is unnecessary when your OS drive is as big and fast as the NVMe SSDs used in modern machines like your soon-to-arrive Mac Studio. You may want to set up a few Containers on your new Mac's APFS-formatted SSD to simplify housekeeping. Unlike Partitions, Containers are not fixed in size, so you don't have to worry about allocating drive space in advance. Use Apple's Disk Utility to do this, and do it before you begin installing your sample libraries.

As you await the arrival of your new Mac, order two external HDs bigger (I'd suggest at least x2) than your new internal SSD. I use Seagate 8TB USB drives. Cost ranges from $140-180 per drive. They are slow, especially for the initial backup run, but speed is not the issue with backups. Connect to your Mac and turn on Time Machine. Use one drive for TM backups on a daily basis. Use the second drive to backup now and then with Time Machine, and keep it somewhere safe, not in the studio. Alternately, use the second drive as a destination for regularly updated Clones of your system drive.

I have my computer in a machine closet, so HD noise is not an issue. If noise is more of an issue than budget for you, use SSDs for backup. Otherwise, simply turn off Time Machine while you are working in your studio. But be sure to remember to turn it back on!

You can restore your entire Mac from a Time Machine backup or from a clone. The advantage of TM is its constancy... backing up automatically every hour means if disaster occurs, loss will be nominal.

And if you really care about your music, consider getting BackBlaze for $6/Mo and keeping your work backed up there. BackBlaze doesn't backup your apps or OS, but it will keep your data (unlimited amount for a single computer) safe in the event of...

*THE HORROR:
#1 When wildfire took out my last studio, had I not had backups, I would have been in a really bad place. Emotionally and financially.

#2 Back before I used TM, two days of early stage, creative composing work on a score... largely lost when a drive failed. Some of the work was recovered at significant expense. Not fun.

In conclusion... If you have only one copy of your data, you do not have your data. Back Up!

Addendum: Also get a UPS. Folks using laptops have one built-in. Desktop users do not.


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## Crowe (Mar 14, 2022)

I generally use my OS drive for my OS and Critical Applications. Projects, Samples, VSTs etc are all on secondary drives.

It's kinda just good practice.


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## thevisi0nary (Mar 14, 2022)

Not only do I use the OS drive, but now I keep my most accessed document folders such as projects right under the C/ directory for the least amount of clicking lol. Zero issues.


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## KEM (Mar 14, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> The day to start keeping a backup is yesterday*
> 
> KEM, I understand you will be keeping everything on your new Mac's internal SSD. There's nothing wrong with that. Splitting data files from OS drive used to be a good practice; it still works fine, but is unnecessary when your OS drive is as big and fast as the NVMe SSDs used in modern machines like your soon-to-arrive Mac Studio. You may want to set up a few Containers on your new Mac's APFS-formatted SSD to simplify housekeeping. Unlike Partitions, Containers are not fixed in size, so you don't have to worry about allocating drive space in advance. Use Apple's Disk Utility to do this, and do it before you begin installing your sample libraries.
> 
> ...



Really good tips thank you!! I was actually looking into Time Machine last night, sounds like the best way to do it for a Mac user, and it definitely won’t be hurting anything so once the Mac Studio arrives I’ll be sure to do that


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## BassClef (Mar 14, 2022)

I have a Studio Ultra on order to replace my current 2014 iMac. On this old iMac, I have only one internal SSD... 256GB. I purchased this and have always used the internal SSD only for OS and apps. Part of that decision was cost savings, and at the time, I was not doing any PC music. I ordered the new Studio Ultra with 2TB internal and will keep some personal stuff on it that is also in Apple Cloud. Most of my large personal files (music, photos, videos, documents) are on external SSDs as are my VI libraries. I currently use an HD time machine backup as well as BackBlaze offline backup.


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## mat1 (Mar 14, 2022)

I keep as much on internals as I can. Backblaze and dropbox for cloud but no local backup. If the proverbial hits the fan I've got other Macs that can open my sessions.


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