# Now here...MOTU DP11



## cmillar

DP11 is beautiful. So far so great. 'Nuff said.

And running beautifully on my 2009 MacPro w/5.1 and High Sierra 10.13.6 and the 2015 MacBook Pro with same software setup.


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## mscp

I'll give it a try when they sort it out for Windows.


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## JohnG

Quite tempted to upgrade; anyone having trouble opening projects from 10.x ?


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## Garlu

JohnG said:


> Quite tempted to upgrade; anyone having trouble opening projects from 10.x ?


Not a problem and you can keep both installed on the same machine. DP10 shows as "Digital Performer 10" and this one gets named as "Digital Performer".


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## dcoscina

It's pretty crisp running here too. On Catalina with MacBook Air i7 dual core (soon to be Mac Mini M1!!)

Love MX4...


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## JohnG

Garlu said:


> Not a problem and you can keep both installed on the same machine. DP10 shows as "Digital Performer 10" and this one gets named as "Digital Performer".


In that case, will start downloading during England vs. Denmark...

Gracias, merci, danke etc.


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## dylanmixer

As long as it's a train wreck on Windows unfortunately I won't be giving it a try. Been eyeing it for years, though.


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## José Herring

dylanmixer said:


> As long as it's a train wreck on Windows unfortunately I won't be giving it a try. Been eyeing it for years, though.


Was going to ask this. Does it work on windows 10 well? I've been eyeing the switch back to DP for a while as well. I qualify for the upgrade but not sure if I want to go down the Mac rabbit whole right now especially with the big change coming.


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## Toecutter

José Herring said:


> Was going to ask this. Does it work on windows 10 well? I've been eyeing the switch back to DP for a while as well. I qualify for the upgrade but not sure if I want to go down the Mac rabbit whole right now especially with the big change coming.


It didn't go too well for me. I posted my brief experience with DP11 here https://vi-control.net/community/threads/motus-dp11-is-out.111699/post-4865072


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## stigc56

JohnG said:


> In that case, will start downloading during England vs. Denmark...
> 
> Gracias, merci, danke etc.


Dont mention Denmark! We lost.


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## ALittleNightMusic

Anybody have a summary of what DP does _better_ than say Cubase and Logic?


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## prodigalson

Really liking this update so far. The articulation maps function seems like a hybrid between Cubase and Logic. Seems mostly like Cubase but more intuitive and flexible.


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## erodred

José Herring said:


> Was going to ask this. Does it work on windows 10 well? I've been eyeing the switch back to DP for a while as well. I qualify for the upgrade but not sure if I want to go down the Mac rabbit whole right now especially with the big change coming.


it was my first time trying it ever, and as I was trying to figure out how to add an instrument track I was met with an error reporting screen. Been interested in checking it out for awhile. So far so good haha.


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## Geoff Grace

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Anybody have a summary of what DP does _better_ than say Cubase and Logic?


The link below provides a good list of features, although it doesn’t make any product comparisons:






Features | MOTU.com







motu.com





Best,

Geoff


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## ALittleNightMusic

Geoff Grace said:


> The link below provides a good list of features, although it doesn’t make any product comparisons:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Features | MOTU.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> motu.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff


Seems pretty standard fare in terms of features for a mature DAW. But hard to tell how the workflow is.


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## AEF

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Anybody have a summary of what DP does _better_ than say Cubase and Logic?


1) chunks
2) vracks
3) clippings (not the clips launcher ableton stuff, clippings is a totally different unrelated thing)
4) the tempo finding tools based on markers


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## cmillar

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Anybody have a summary of what DP does _better_ than say Cubase and Logic?


Having used Cubase extensively over the pandemic period to check it out, I gladly came back to DP for many reasons:
- DP handles VI's with more CPU efficiency. ie: Omnisphere has less of a CPU hit when loaded in DP. If I load it into VEP7, it's even easier.
- hooking up to VEP7, on the same computer, is so easy and fast
- the new scalable zoom view is great for the eyes
- if you like to look at MIDI in notation view, it's as good if not better than Cubase as far as figuring out the actual 'real' lengths of notes

DP is full of features with something for everyone.
Best of all, it supports older machines like my 2009 MacPro with High Sierra and makes it fly.


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## JohnG

stigc56 said:


> Dont mention Denmark! We lost.


My sympathies.


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## JohnG

cmillar said:


> if you like to look at MIDI in notation view, it's as good if not better than Cubase as far as figuring out the actual 'real' lengths of notes


Leaving aside the Cubase comparison (about which I am in the dark), DP's notation and the speedy ability to drag bar lines around is just indispensable for my workflow. I don't know what I'd do without it.

As @cmillar wrote, the DP notation has an uncanny ability to recognise what you intend, musically. And with MusicXML export it is 10x faster to move over to Sibelius / Finale (if you even want to). 

Moreover, with version 11, I see they've added a lot of symbols to the notation so who knows where that goes?

Quite pleased so far.


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## shropshirelad

As a DP4 owner (!) I qualify for an upgrade. I'm tempted to take another look after all these years.


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## cmillar

shropshirelad said:


> As a DP4 owner (!) I qualify for an upgrade. I'm tempted to take another look after all these years.


Do it! It's like Sibelius; the last few upgrades make things pretty speedy very easy.


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## thesteelydane

JohnG said:


> Leaving aside the Cubase comparison (about which I am in the dark), DP's notation and the speedy ability to drag bar lines around is just indispensable for my workflow. I don't know what I'd do without it.
> 
> As @cmillar wrote, the DP notation has an uncanny ability to recognise what you intend, musically. And with MusicXML export it is 10x faster to move over to Sibelius / Finale (if you even want to).
> 
> Moreover, with version 11, I see they've added a lot of symbols to the notation so who knows where that goes?
> 
> Quite pleased so far.


That sounds interesting, I always write better when I work in notation, but I don’t like jumping between programs. All I want is a DAW that does notation really well. Maybe DP is it?


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## Geoff Grace

JohnG said:


> Leaving aside the Cubase comparison (about which I am in the dark), DP's notation and the speedy ability to drag bar lines around is just indispensable for my workflow. I don't know what I'd do without it.
> 
> As @cmillar wrote, the DP notation has an uncanny ability to recognise what you intend, musically. And with MusicXML export it is 10x faster to move over to Sibelius / Finale (if you even want to).
> 
> Moreover, with version 11, I see they've added a lot of symbols to the notation so who knows where that goes?
> 
> Quite pleased so far.


I was a devoted Mark of the Unicorn Performer/Digital Performer/Composer's Mosaic user back in the '90s and early 2000s, before the term "DAW" was coined. I wonder if DP's current notation ability has finally caught up with MOTU's old Composer's Mosaic notation program. It was very good for its day and had lots of features, but it was as slow as molasses at rendering on those old Motorola processors.

Best,

Geoff


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## 60s Pop Man

thesteelydane said:


> That sounds interesting, I always write better when I work in notation, but I don’t like jumping between programs. All I want is a DAW that does notation really well. Maybe DP is it?


DP's QS although nice in many ways does not provide drum or percussion notation.


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## mjsalam

60s Pop Man said:


> DP's QS although nice in many ways does not provide drum or percussion notation.


So any initial impressions on DP11 yet? Gamechanger?


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## dcoscina

mjsalam said:


> So any initial impressions on DP11 yet? Gamechanger?


I suspect the playing field is pretty level these days. Each DAW will have its advantages or niche ways that might appeal to some over others. DPs film scoring features were the primary reasons i used it for so long. Additionally, it’s layout and navigation seemed better for orchestral composing to me over other software. I’ve been big into Studio One this past year but getting back to DP was not as hard as I thought. I still remember all of the short cuts! Muscle memory I guess from using it for so many years.


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## 60s Pop Man

mjsalam said:


> So any initial impressions on DP11 yet? Gamechanger?


I haven't updated to DP11 yet.

As an observer at the moment, I applaud MOTU for the features in DP11 and the DP10 update before that. For DP users, updating to 11 makes perfect sense given computer and OS compatibility.

If using another DAW, then the devil is always in the details relevant to your intended use.

MOTU deserves credit for keeping older computers and OS in the loop compared to some DAW developers.


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## Dewdman42

DP has some very compelling film score features for sure. I am still evaluating whether I will revert back to it with DP11.

In my view the big four daws for this space are logic, cubase, studio one and Dp. Dp doesn’t get talked about much on this forum I’m not sure why as it is quite capable.

But each of these have some different strengths and weakness. I feel that as of now cubase has the best support for articulation management, but logicpro has scripter which actually makes it even better for articulation management if and only if you have the ability to use scripter. S1 and Dp are very similar in their current articulation management, but not as good as cubase or logicpro.

Studio one has arguably the best notation with logicpro second behind that

DP has chunks! Nobody else comes close in that area. It also has unparalleled hit point calculation tools if you’re into film scoring.

They are all fine and can get the job done right now today despite the fact they all keep coming up a bit short on articulation management in my view.

I have watched S1 and cubase for a while but stopped keeping them up to date because they aren’t really jumping ahead in a way that would warrant changing over from my current daw, logicpro. Same with DP. 

Dp is on my radar because of chunks but they would need to match or better what I can do in logicpro with scripter to manage articulations, which they didn’t quite do in DP11.

DP is getting closer then it was a week ago though so I am still pondering about it for chunks. It’s not an inexpensive upgrade and it’s a big deal to change daws frankly other then as an experiment.

S1, DP and Cubase are all on my radar also because of apple shenanigans and I may have to switch to windows at some point. It’s not clear yet which I would use.

Aside from specific orchestral music concerns I feel cubase and DP are the generally deepest daws of the four mentioned. Dp has been around a long time and has a lot of deep features related to sound production.

Logicpro is a close second though I feel it has drifted to second place due to long unresolved problems with pdc and other things like that, it’s very intuitive and capable daw but with a lot of very old code inside that never seems to get enough attention from apple to fix those old problems in the environment, etc… apple doesn’t charge for updates which is nice, but it also shows what happens when there is not update revenue to fund those kinds of needed updates. And it only runs in Mac, whatever that future is going to be.

S1 has a lot of promise but I feel it is the least deep of the four mentioned and still evolving. Lots of potential for it to become the best daw but it’s not there yet IMHO. They have to improve it some more before i can take it seriously over the other three. The main upside in my view is that it is not riddled with decades of old bug ridden code like the others. It has some crafty workflow concepts but it lacks depth of the other daws in many important ways as of now.

All of the above is just one man’s opinion


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## Geoff Grace

Dewdman42 said:


> In my view the big four daws for this space are logic, cubase, studio one and Dp. Dp doesn’t get talked about much on this forum I’m not sure why as it is quite capable.


Digital Performer never made much headway in Europe, and a lot of our forum members are from there; so that might explain it.

Best,

Geoff


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## Dewdman42

Geoff Grace said:


> Digital Performer never made much headway in Europe,



why?


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## Geoff Grace

Dewdman42 said:


> why?


I can only speculate as to why. Perhaps MOTU wasn't very good at marketing there. Perhaps it's because DP lacked the object-oriented approach that Cubase and Logic (and later, Studio One) favored.

Best,

Geoff


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## Al Maurice

PCs for many years reigned supreme on this side of the pond; unlike in the US, where Apple previoulsy was more dominant. Things have kind of levelled out here in the last few years, as the creative and IT fraternity have grasped onto the Macs as their platform of choice.

DP only over the last couple of years has been ported to PCs, and although it's less flaky than it was. DP tends to open up lots of files as it goes along, so over time your memory count starts decreasing. When it first opens up, I've noticed it grabs quite a bit of memory just to load in its plugins. I tend to use an app to release the memory from these apps. But still DP keeps grabbing memory as it plays through.

That's not great for Windows, as opening up lots of files leads to a crash fest down the line, when the OS thinks the program is behaving unresponsively, and eventually to prevent the OS from throwing a blue screen attempts to put the offending app into a Zombie state or worse of all throws a signal to close the app. DP then goes into a crash, and your only hope is to recover your work later when it reopens. Hopefully none of the files it's been holding open haven't been corrupted.

So I say it's a work in progress on Windows.


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## Geoff Grace

Al Maurice said:


> PCs for many years reigned supreme on this side of the pond; unlike in the US, where Apple previoulsy was more dominant. Things have kind of levelled out here in the last few years, as the creative and IT fraternity have grasped onto the Macs as their platform of choice.


Good point, *Al*. I believe that the Atari Falcon (which ran Notator Logic and Cubase) was also a more popular platform for sequencing software in Europe than in the US, back in the '90s when product loyalties were forming. Its timing was reportedly superior to PCs and Macs.

Best,

Geoff


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## Dewdman42

The Atari was, at the time, the best midi timing because MIDI was built into the Atari OS at a very low level to support gaming I suppose but with enough priority to ensure solid timing. I had a buddy here that owned a few Atari computers and was really into it, but they were really only useful for gaming in reality, or for a while as a sequencing computer as a musician. Not many people had them here. I almost bought one just to devote for sequencing, but glad I didn't since they disappeared.


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## gzapper

Al Maurice said:


> PCs for many years reigned supreme on this side of the pond; unlike in the US, where Apple previoulsy was more dominant. Things have kind of levelled out here in the last few years, as the creative and IT fraternity have grasped onto the Macs as their platform of choice.
> 
> DP only over the last couple of years has been ported to PCs, and although it's less flaky than it was. DP tends to open up lots of files as it goes along, so over time your memory count starts decreasing. When it first opens up, I've noticed it grabs quite a bit of memory just to load in its plugins. I tend to use an app to release the memory from these apps. But still DP keeps grabbing memory as it plays through.
> 
> That's not great for Windows, as opening up lots of files leads to a crash fest down the line, when the OS thinks the program is behaving unresponsively, and eventually to prevent the OS from throwing a blue screen attempts to put the offending app into a Zombie state or worse of all throws a signal to close the app. DP then goes into a crash, and your only hope is to recover your work later when it reopens. Hopefully none of the files it's been holding open haven't been corrupted.
> 
> So I say it's a work in progress on Windows.


I wouldn't use DP on windows, macs are maybe more pricey but they are less fuss but more importantly DP has been on mac for a long time. (wait, I didn't start a flame war did I?).

DP11 so far is a bit snappier, I just switched in the middle of a big play going into tech this week, and only because I trust MOTU for solid updates. I'm on a 2017 macbook pro with only 16 gigs RAM, 'cuz I work in the theatre. So am bringing along a intel NUC for VEP now. But the show I'm on has about 250-300 cues/chunks, all with about 200 VEP tracks, so its been pushing my laptop. Really looking forward to an M2 macbook pro with more ram and fans that aren't on 11 all day long.

So far I'm happy with the upgrade just for being a bit faster, can't get into the articulation maps mid way through this one, I think. I've been on DP since 2.54, after leaving logic and studio vision. Along the way I've checked out logic, pro tools and considered studio 1 and cubase but each time I'm close DP does a catch up update that makes it worth staying.


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## JohnG

Al Maurice said:


> DP tends to open up lots of files as it goes along


On the Mac version, you can turn off as many of the FX as you like under Preferences. Would that help on the PC enough, or is there something else?


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## khollister

Question from a DP idiot - does DP have a dual buffer system like Logic or Cubase's ASIO Guard? If not, aren't you at a big disadvantage having to play everything back at low latencies to record one track?


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## dcoscina

AFAIK, DP is the only DAW to be able to do custom clicks. Meaning you can subdivide a 7/8 meter you could do 2,2,3 or 3,2,2 which is cool. I miss it when using LPX and Studio One


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## JonS

Just installed upgrade to DP11, very excited!!


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## prodigalson

When I was at Berklee, back in the early-mid 2000s, DP was the DAW they made everyone in the film scoring department use (in addition to ProTools). Im sure partly because of the film scoring features (and I’m not sure how advanced Cubase and Logic were at the time) but mostly it was because MOTU is Boston-based and they had a deal. Lol.


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## zolhof

David Das posted an excellent video on the new articulation maps feature:


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## Nimrod7

I don't use/own DP, but judging from the above (excellent) video, their implementation of Articulations Maps is better than in Logic.
And apple supposed to be famous for their well-thought UI's.


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## babylonwaves

... getting there ...


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## JonS

zolhof said:


> David Das posted an excellent video on the new articulation maps feature:



David Das is amazing!!!!


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## ALittleNightMusic

zolhof said:


> David Das posted an excellent video on the new articulation maps feature:



Some questions raised by this video:
- Does DP always separate instrument tracks into audio channels and MIDI tracks as two separate tracks? Or does it have a combined version?
- Are the articulations marked in the piano roll editor using one lane per articulation (like Cubase does for "Direction" articulations) or can you assign them per note in another manner (like Cubase / Logic do for "Attribute" articulations)? If you have like 30-40 articulations, using lanes can be a nightmare to deal with.


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## Dewdman42

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Some questions raised by this video:
> - Does DP always separate instrument tracks into audio channels and MIDI tracks as two separate tracks? Or does it have a combined version?



Yes they are seperate. 




ALittleNightMusic said:


> - Are the articulations marked in the piano roll editor using one lane per articulation (like Cubase does for "Direction" articulations) or can you assign them per note in another manner (like Cubase / Logic do for "Attribute" articulations)? If you have like 30-40 articulations, using lanes can be a nightmare to deal with.



Near as I can tell, DP is a note by note (ie attribute), but it is displayed on the lane...I haven't found a way yet to see the articulation assigned anywhere on the note itself...or by colorizing the notes themselves or something like that. So its using a Cubase style lane yes...

You can for example select notes in the piano roll and assign them to an articulation and its possible to have a chord with different articulations on different notes of the chord (not possible with cubase DIRECTION's)


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## ALittleNightMusic

Dewdman42 said:


> Yes they are seperate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Near as I can tell, DP is a note by note (ie attribute), but it is displayed on the lane...I haven't found a way yet to see the articulation assigned anywhere on the note itself...or by colorizing the notes themselves or something like that. So its using a Cubase style lane yes...
> 
> You can for example select notes in the piano roll and assign them to an articulation and its possible to have a chord with different articulations on different notes of the chord (not possible with cubase DIRECTION's)


Thanks - for "chord with different articulations on different notes", how is that possible with the sampler? Most samplers I believe only play a single articulation at a time - does this actually work?


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## Dewdman42

when there are notes in a chord, the chords are not actually processed at the same time by any software instrument. They are processed one note at a time, and rendered to the audio buffer with the sound starting at the same time. Midi is fundamentally a serial protocol, so even if the midi events are set on the exact same timestamp...as long as the keyswitches are inserted into that serial order of KS-note-KS-note... they end up getting rendered as audio with the audio starting at the same sample point in time...but the actual processing happens linearly....one after the other as seperate midi events. Most software instruments can respond to those keyswitches and actually render the articulation with a different sound for each note of the chord.

Of course, whether DP actually makes sure to send those ks-note-ks-note sequences in correct order is left to be tested. It works that way in LogicPro and cubase. I assume DP probably does too.



> _Note - the above won't work when using CC switches to change articulations in Kontakt or any VST3 instrument due to "flaws" in their design, but key-switches work fine._



its not a common scenario.

But just pointing out that articulations in DP are assigned per note...they are not broad-stroke DIRECTION style. It kind of functions similar as a DIRECTION in that it continues to play subsequent notes with the same articulation unless otherwise explicitly changed otherwise...that is more like cubase direction's...but since it can be separately assigned to notes, its also like attributes. I think its more like attributes...it just happens to have somewhat of a DIRECTION style of entering it into the lanes.


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## ALittleNightMusic

Dewdman42 said:


> when there are notes in a chord, the chords are not actually processed at the same time by any software instrument. They are processed one note at a time, and rendered to the audio buffer with the sound starting at the same time. Midi is fundamentally a serial protocol, so even if the midi events are set on the exact same timestamp...as long as the keyswitches are inserted into that serial order of KS-note-KS-note... they end up getting rendered as audio with the audio starting at the same sample point in time...but the actual processing happens linearly....one after the other as seperate midi events. Most software instruments can respond to those keyswitches and actually render the articulation with a different sound for each note of the chord.
> 
> Of course, whether DP actually makes sure to send those ks-note-ks-note sequences in correct order is left to be tested. It works that way in LogicPro and cubase. I assume DP probably does too.
> 
> 
> 
> its not a common scenario.
> 
> But just pointing out that articulations in DP are assigned per note...they are not broad-stroke DIRECTION style. It kind of functions similar as a DIRECTION in that it continues to play subsequent notes with the same articulation unless otherwise explicitly changed otherwise...that is more like cubase direction's...but since it can be separately assigned to notes, its also like attributes. I think its more like attributes...it just happens to have somewhat of a DIRECTION style of entering it into the lanes.


Interesting - I tried this in Cubase with Kontakt and CSS and two MIDI tracks targeting it playing two different articulations and it doesn't work. The last played articulation at any given time will takeover and only one note / articulation across both tracks can play at a time.


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## Dewdman42

were you using CC switches to trigger the articulations?


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## ALittleNightMusic

Dewdman42 said:


> were you using CC switches to trigger the articulations?


I was - does it only work with MIDI note triggers?


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## Dewdman42

were you also using attribute style expressions?


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## ALittleNightMusic

Dewdman42 said:


> were you also using attribute style expressions?


Yes - attribute expression map.


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## Dewdman42

I'll try a test in a few minutes. I could have sworn I tried this in cubase. I have tested it to work many times in LogicPro. If it doesn't work, its a flaw in the DAW in my view that may rear is head in other situations too.

This is getting off topic though...happy to start another thread to discuss this issue with you if you like...or PM me for more details...


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## ALittleNightMusic

Dewdman42 said:


> I'll try a test in a few minutes. I could have sworn I tried this in cubase. I have tested it to work many times in LogicPro. If it doesn't work, its a flaw in the DAW in my view that may rear is head in other situations too.
> 
> This is getting off topic though...happy to start another thread to discuss this issue with you if you like...or PM me for more details...


No worries - I didn't know this was possible in any DAW / sampler, so if DP does support it, that seems pretty cool! Thanks for the new knowledge.


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## Dewdman42

and quick last point again...but lets move on to DP discussion...but yes...*Kontakt* is fundamentally flawed in that the exact ordering of mixed midi events is not preserved as sent from the DAW to the instrument. You can use NoteOn and PC events to trigger poly-articulation chords and it should work fine, but you can't use CC switches and expect it to work correctly. The Kontakt scripting always receives all the CC switches in front of the Notes..so the script basically only know about the last one by the time its processing the Notes

VST3 in general is even more flawed, it can't use PC events that way either..only the exact ordering of NoteOn will be preserved...all other midi event types will not be in the correct order to be handled properly by an instrument with exactitude of order.


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## Dewdman42

ps - I just did a quick test in Cubase and it doesn't work there either. In that case, Cubase should not be allowing us to create poly-articulation chords...since they don't work. Or they should fix it so that it does work, but I digress.. will test DP now...


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## Dewdman42

For anyone interested in this, its not really a common requirement, but DP11 does actually interleave the midi events properly so that poly-articulation chords can be created in DP11..











score one for Motu there...


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## Dewdman42

something else worth pointing out about Cubase vs DP on this thing that I'm just now noticing... 

DP handles keyswitches the same way LogicPro does...which until recently I was ambivalent about but a recent experience with ModoBass made me realize this may actually be important in some cases.

Specifically...

Notice in the logging above...that Cubase sends each keyswitch NoteOn, immediately followed by its corresponding Noteoff.

The DP logging however, notice that the keyswitch NoteOn of each keyswitch happens....but not the NoteOff...the NoteOff doesn't happen until later on after the sound notes have actually stopped sustaining... 

In other words, DP mimics as if you are holding the keyswitch down while playing the notes.

LogicPro handles keyswitching the same way.

does it matter? In a lot of cases no. but recently I was working with ModoBass and it actually does have a number of keyswitches designed to operate while being held down only....and guess what...Cubase expression map can't really handle that as far as I can tell. DP and LogicPro can.


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## Symfoniq

Dewdman42 said:


> something else worth pointing out about Cubase vs DP on this thing that I'm just now noticing...
> 
> DP handles keyswitches the same way LogicPro does...which until recently I was ambivalent about but a recent experience with ModoBass made me realize this may actually be important in some cases.
> 
> Specifically...
> 
> Notice in the logging above...that Cubase sends each keyswitch NoteOn, immediately followed by its corresponding Noteoff.
> 
> The DP logging however, notice that the keyswitch NoteOn of each keyswitch happens....but not the NoteOff...the NoteOff doesn't happen until later on after the sound notes have actually stopped sustaining...
> 
> In other words, DP mimics as if you are holding the keyswitch down while playing the notes.
> 
> LogicPro handles keyswitching the same way.
> 
> does it matter? In a lot of cases no. but recently I was working with ModoBass and it actually does have a number of keyswitches designed to operate while being held down only....and guess what...Cubase expression map can't really handle that as far as I can tell. DP and LogicPro can.


Dewdman:

Just want to say that your posts are a real asset to this community. Thank you, and don't stop posting!


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## gzapper

Dewdman42 said:


> and quick last point again...but lets move on to DP discussion...but yes...*Kontakt* is fundamentally flawed in that the exact ordering of mixed midi events is not preserved as sent from the DAW to the instrument. You can use NoteOn and PC events to trigger poly-articulation chords and it should work fine, but you can't use CC switches and expect it to work correctly. The Kontakt scripting always receives all the CC switches in front of the Notes..so the script basically only know about the last one by the time its processing the Notes
> 
> VST3 in general is even more flawed, it can't use PC events that way either..only the exact ordering of NoteOn will be preserved...all other midi event types will not be in the correct order to be handled properly by an instrument with exactitude of order.


I think you'd have to have your library, and Kontakt or whatever sampler, working with MPE for this to happen. Steinberg's Iconica may do this, I think it does take polyphonic pitch bend. Otherwise the only libraries I know that will take stacked articulations do combos of articulations at the same time on the same note. 

What libraries can do this now that you know of?


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## Dewdman42

no MPE has no thing to do with it. This is basic midi. Has always worked this way.


----------



## Al Maurice

JohnG said:


> On the Mac version, you can turn off as many of the FX as you like under Preferences. Would that help on the PC enough, or is there something else?


Thanks John -- I think DP calls such things plugin sets (also available on Windows version), this to my mind is a very nifty feature, which I like. When I switched back to safe mode, the initial RAM load reduced by a reasonable margin -- enough to give me some comfortable working headroom. 

In this regard I've created a slimlined plugin set, which I called 'composer' containing just my key instrument VIs and a handful of effects to help me balance my template as I go. 

Will have to see if there's anything else I can achieve from a configuration perspective. DP has lots of options here. From initial experimentation some help others don't much, as my PC is quite well specced. It seems that whatever you do, eventually you'll going to hit the memory buffer: at some point I'll just need to add some more RAM, but I'm going to hold off doing so until I can find a better balancing point.


----------



## gzapper

Dewdman42 said:


> no MPE has no thing to do with it. This is basic midi. Has always worked this way.


I've never seen this.
Can you give an example of a DAW, sample player like Kontakt and library where this works?

Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding here.
It sounds like you expect that when you play a chord and then stack three articulations that you would expect the DAW to send different articulations to each note, is that right?
I've just never heard of a setup where that happens.


----------



## studioj

gzapper said:


> I've never seen this.
> Can you give an example of a DAW, sample player like Kontakt and library where this works?
> 
> Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding here.
> It sounds like you expect that when you play a chord and then stack three articulations that you would expect the DAW to send different articulations to each note, is that right?
> I've just never heard of a setup where that happens.


Logic works beautifully in this way with kontakt and spitfire instruments to name one. I do this all the time. You can also do it with the same note layered on top of itself! Sometimes I’ll add a marcato or other accented articulation to a sustain this way. You must use key switching or UACC KS mode in the kontakt instrument though. 

Tests I’ve done with Cubase and attribute mode have come up short which I think was mentioned earlier…it is unable to reliably produce the same results even though the setup is similar.


----------



## gzapper

studioj said:


> Logic works beautifully in this way with kontakt and spitfire instruments to name one. I do this all the time. You can also do it with the same note layered on top of itself! Sometimes I’ll add a marcato or other accented articulation to a sustain this way. You must use key switching or UACC KS mode in the kontakt instrument though.
> 
> Tests I’ve done with Cubase and attribute mode have come up short which I think was mentioned earlier…it is unable to reliably produce the same results even though the setup is similar.


Cool, this is new to me.

So when you stack articulations it plays the same note twice, once with each separate articulation?
And when you play a chord with that, what happens?


----------



## studioj

gzapper said:


> Cool, this is new to me.
> 
> So when you stack articulations it plays the same note twice, once with each separate articulation?
> And when you play a chord with that, what happens?


Correct. And for instance in a 3 note vertical structure (chord) with each note at the same starting place, each note can be set to a different articulation and it will play back correctly. Note that this is all set after recording of course, you set the desired articulations in the piano roll.
Glad to hear that DP can do this as well.

what is the Sync to VI button for in the DP art map window? Is that something like Studio One’s sound variation sync feature? I hope they can use the same protocol for this (presonus and motu) so devs can easily support it.


----------



## Dewdman42

I’m also meaning to figure out what the remap button does also which I pressed experimentally once and it messed everything up hehe


----------



## prodigalson

I'm having an issue getting my secondary keyboard to switch articulations. It's sending on channel 16 and the maps are set to receive remote on channel 16. MIDI monitor shows it's receiving signal correctly on 16 and my main keyboard is sending MIDI correctly too. Yet for the life of me I can't figure out why the secondary keyboard isn't able to change the articulations. I've triple-checked that all the keyswitches are correct...anyone have a similar issue?


----------



## Al Maurice

prodigalson said:


> I'm having an issue getting my secondary keyboard to switch articulations. It's sending on channel 16 and the maps are set to receive remote on channel 16.


From my initial attempts, the articulation mapping works fine if I play the lines in and switch articulations as I go. On the other hand, when I try to write in them afterwards via overdub it doesn't register them unless I enter any changes by hand with the pencil tool.

I've tried it with one keyboard, and also with an additional one to enter in the artics on an alternative channel whilst the input was selected to 'any'.


----------



## dts_marin

For me stacked articulations worked in DP11. Even legato and shorts at the same time. (That obviously won't work with libraries that share CC1 data for shorts and sustains if you need different dynamics for some reason). You need to fiddle a bit with the note attacks but once you get it just right it works and nothing drops out during the legato line while the shorts are playing. How is this even possible with plain Kontakt libraries? 

DP's articulation maps are really great. They only thing I miss is articulation specific offset. They already have the means to do it. Note length works on the same principle (moves the release). They just need to move the whole note. Also this should be based both on ms or ticks. Not just one of them or the percent they have for note length.

My biggest wish would be for MOTU to make a really basic web remote (not an app exclusive to iOS/Android) that just displays the articulations of the record-armed track. This would save us A LOT of manual TouchOSC/Metagrid etc. work.


----------



## Dewdman42

make sure you send a feature request to MOTU, just create a support ticket expressing your desire, they will forward it to engineering. I did already and they responded from support that it was being sent to someone that cares. Whether that turns into a feature is left to be seen, but if enough people ask for it, maybe it will.


----------



## Dewdman42

Regarding remote stuff, I'm doubtful MOTU will go down that rabbit hole again, I'd rather make sure they keep some kind of protocol enabled so that we can do whatever we need to do easily with the various generic solutions. I'm curious to see what the PatchBoard dude will come up with for DP that that there is some articulation support.... Not a cheap solution though..


----------



## kgdrum

Dewdman42 said:


> Regarding remote stuff, I'm doubtful MOTU will go down that rabbit hole again, I'd rather make sure they keep some kind of protocol enabled so that we can do whatever we need to do easily with the various generic solutions. I'm curious to see what the PatchBoard dude will come up with for DP that that there is some articulation support.... Not a cheap solution though..


Good suggestion,I just sent MOTU a request for either updating or creating a new control app. Besides MOTU not seeming to want to update or create a new app why do you consider this a rabbit hole? I can’t imagine updating or creating an app like this would be that hard for MOTU or whoever they contract to do this,why they haven’t shown any interest all of these years after numerous requests from the DP user base is bewildering………………


----------



## dts_marin

Dewdman42 said:


> Regarding remote stuff, I'm doubtful MOTU will go down that rabbit hole again, I'd rather make sure they keep some kind of protocol enabled so that we can do whatever we need to do easily with the various generic solutions. I'm curious to see what the PatchBoard dude will come up with for DP that that there is some articulation support.... Not a cheap solution though..


They already have a protocol (OSC) but their implementation and documentation is so cryptic they just don't want us to use it. Patchboard works via OSC but the developer was (is?) also a MOTU dev so that certainly helped.

A web app remote doesn't need as much support as a fully fledged app. Anything with Chrome can run it. I hate tablets with passion, anything with batteries. I only use a touchscreen monitor and thankfully developers are adapting and many mobile exclusive apps now exist as web apps.


----------



## dts_marin

kgdrum said:


> Good suggestion,I just sent MOTU a request for either updating or creating a new control app. Besides MOTU not seeming to want to update or create a new app why do you consider this a rabbit hole? I can’t imagine updating or creating an app like this would be that hard for MOTU or whoever they contract to do this,why they haven’t shown any interest all of these years after numerous requests from the DP user base is bewildering………


Apps are a PITA because they constantly have to get approval from Apple and Google etc. It is a messy process. That's why a web app remote like Patchboard is the only sustainable solution for MOTU. A DAW controller is a very different thing. I just want an articulation remote that doesn't need manual mapping and syncs with changes in DP.


----------



## Dewdman42

kgdrum said:


> Good suggestion,I just sent MOTU a request for either updating or creating a new control app. Besides MOTU not seeming to want to update or create a new app why do you consider this a rabbit hole? I can’t imagine updating or creating an app like this would be that hard for MOTU or whoever they contract to do this,why they haven’t shown any interest all of these years after numerous requests from the DP user base is bewildering………………



Well first of all, I personally think DP doesn't itself even get enough attention from its devs. I think they tried to do a remote app, they did it...then they let it languish on the vine and never came back. They do a lot of web based UI's now for their hardware, so I think maybe they could do something like that as a remote control for DP...but the CueMix UI's they make are actually pretty simple...they are just a mixer view of their audio interfaces, which they have had for a long time in CueMix.

The rabbit hole you asked about is because all you have to do is spend a little time on these forums on these topics to see that 69 people have 1069 different ways like they want to use a remote app...its quite difficult to do anything that will please a single majority...which is why generally you hardly see anyone using, IMHO, the LogicPro Remote app..they tend to use TouchOSC and other customizable solutions...which are quite deep in complexity on their own right. I just don't see MOTU doing it... not that I wouldn't enjoy it if they did, but I think they went there once and decided, to stick with the DAW and protocols and let other people make fancy touch interfaces.





dts_marin said:


> They already have a protocol (OSC) but their implementation and documentation is so cryptic they just don't want us to use it.



Exactly... How does DP use OSC? I'm not even sure. None of the big DAW's make it simple in fairness to MOTU. But this is an area they could all stand to make things a little more accessible so that anyone with an OSC software program can basically take control of the DAW and control every conceivable aspect of it. Typically these OSC commands also tend to be just whatever was needed to support some kind of controller...which usually is related to controlling the mixer and maybe some transport functions and a few things like that. There is usually stuff outside the OSC scope of things that has to be done using Keyboard Maestro, midi or other hack arounds in order to access whatever articulation control, etc., etc, etc..

So anyway I just think all the DAW's, including MOTU, need to generally improve these protocols to facilitate better remote control beyong controller faders and START/STOP...




dts_marin said:


> Patchboard works via OSC but the developer was (is?) also a MOTU dev so that certainly helped.



He also wrote controller modules for both LogicPro and Cubase? I'm not sure what he did for DP...it wasn't talked about that deeply, but prior to now DP didn't have articulation management, so presumably he has to update Patchboard now...and with his MOTU background it will be interesting to see what he does.




dts_marin said:


> A web app remote doesn't need as much support as a fully fledged app. Anything with Chrome can run it. I hate tablets with passion, anything with batteries. I only use a touchscreen monitor and thankfully developers are adapting and many mobile exclusive apps now exist as web apps.



Eh, that might be overstating things, good web apps take a lot of effort to get right...but the main advantage of a web based approach is that it will run ANYWHERE. on a laptop, android, Windows, MacOS, linux, iOS or anything else that can run a browser for the most part. Its a nice advantage. MOTU does CueMix that way now...but like I said earlier...the focus has been on mixer control...something they've already had in place for decades...and in order to facilitate articulation management its an entire different set of things that need to be controlled and a bunch of different opinions from people about the best way to approach it...its a rabbit hole...


----------



## kgdrum

Dewdman42 said:


> Well first of all, I personally think DP doesn't itself even get enough attention from its devs. I think they tried to do a remote app, they did it...then they let it languish on the vine and never came back. They do a lot of web based UI's now for their hardware, so I think maybe they could do something like that as a remote control for DP...but the CueMix UI's they make are actually pretty simple...they are just a mixer view of their audio interfaces, which they have had for a long time in CueMix.
> 
> The rabbit hole you asked about is because all you have to do is spend a little time on these forums on these topics to see that 69 people have 1069 different ways like they want to use a remote app...its quite difficult to do anything that will please a single majority...which is why generally you hardly see anyone using, IMHO, the LogicPro Remote app..they tend to use TouchOSC and other customizable solutions...which are quite deep in complexity on their own right. I just don't see MOTU doing it... not that I wouldn't enjoy it if they did, but I think they went there once and decided, to stick with the DAW and protocols and let other people make fancy touch interfaces.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly... How does DP use OSC? I'm not even sure. None of the big DAW's make it simple in fairness to MOTU. But this is an area they could all stand to make things a little more accessible so that anyone with an OSC software program can basically take control of the DAW and control every conceivable aspect of it. Typically these OSC commands also tend to be just whatever was needed to support some kind of controller...which usually is related to controlling the mixer and maybe some transport functions and a few things like that. There is usually stuff outside the OSC scope of things that has to be done using Keyboard Maestro, midi or other hack arounds in order to access whatever articulation control, etc., etc, etc..
> 
> So anyway I just think all the DAW's, including MOTU, need to generally improve these protocols to facilitate better remote control beyong controller faders and START/STOP...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He also wrote controller modules for both LogicPro and Cubase? I'm not sure what he did for DP...it wasn't talked about that deeply, but prior to now DP didn't have articulation management, so presumably he has to update Patchboard now...and with his MOTU background it will be interesting to see what he does.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eh, that might be overstating things, good web apps take a lot of effort to get right...but the main advantage of a web based approach is that it will run ANYWHERE. on a laptop, android, Windows, MacOS, linux, iOS or anything else that can run a browser for the most part. Its a nice advantage. MOTU does CueMix that way now...but like I said earlier...the focus has been on mixer control...something they've already had in place for decades...and in order to facilitate articulation management its an entire different set of things that need to be controlled and a bunch of different opinions from people about the best way to approach it...its a rabbit hole...


What just surprised me is I already received a response from MOTU. While they didn’t really say much of anything but the quick,honest response shows me MOTU is improving and it seems like they might be listening.

they said this:
“Thanks for writing and for sharing your thoughts with us. It's possible that we'll see an update to DP Control, but I'm not sure what the plan is for development at this time. I'll pass your email along to the development team.” 

Best, 
TH | MOTU Customer Service


----------



## Dewdman42

yes, well I got exactly the same canned response last week. So that's a big maybe. But the more people that ask, the more they might take it seriously.


----------



## sinkd

khollister said:


> Question from a DP idiot - does DP have a dual buffer system like Logic or Cubase's ASIO Guard? If not, aren't you at a big disadvantage having to play everything back at low latencies to record one track?


With the MAS version of VEPro, it is possible to multiply the host buffer and record individual tracks at low latency.


----------



## sinkd

Dewdman42 said:


> something else worth pointing out about Cubase vs DP on this thing that I'm just now noticing...
> 
> DP handles keyswitches the same way LogicPro does...which until recently I was ambivalent about but a recent experience with ModoBass made me realize this may actually be important in some cases.
> 
> Specifically...
> 
> Notice in the logging above...that Cubase sends each keyswitch NoteOn, immediately followed by its corresponding Noteoff.
> 
> The DP logging however, notice that the keyswitch NoteOn of each keyswitch happens....but not the NoteOff...the NoteOff doesn't happen until later on after the sound notes have actually stopped sustaining...
> 
> In other words, DP mimics as if you are holding the keyswitch down while playing the notes.
> 
> LogicPro handles keyswitching the same way.
> 
> does it matter? In a lot of cases no. but recently I was working with ModoBass and it actually does have a number of keyswitches designed to operate while being held down only....and guess what...Cubase expression map can't really handle that as far as I can tell. DP and LogicPro can.


I am a long time DP user, and I have already installed the update, but I am really appreciative of the time you have taken to explore this topic and report. Truly in the best spirit of VI-Control! Thank you Dewdman!

DS


----------



## T-LeffoH

Unusual bug I came across while using DP 11, or attempting to use, still on a VPN connection.

At least with my VPN software, any project files were crashing. Simply disconnecting resolved the issue but hadn't seen that before.


----------



## Dewdman42

I've been playing with the DP11 demo a bit and I think I'm gonna spring for it. This is likely going to become my primary daw actually. Mainly because of chunks, and MOTU did listen and implement articulation management, though I still hope for a few improvements that likely won't come, but I can hope; its on par with all the other DAW's in this dept anyway. I find DP11 to be quite smooth in operation compared to previous versions. They finally got rid of all the tiny fonts. MOTU, I'm back....


----------



## kgdrum

Dewdman42 said:


> I've been playing with the DP11 demo a bit and I think I'm gonna spring for it. This is likely going to become my primary daw actually. Mainly because of chunks, and MOTU did listen and implement articulation management, though I still hope for a few improvements that likely won't come, but I can hope; its on par with all the other DAW's in this dept anyway. I find DP11 to be quite smooth in operation compared to previous versions. They finally got rid of all the tiny fonts. MOTU, I'm back....


I’m giving you fair warning,you will probably be getting numerous inane DP questions from me! lol
I’m a longtime suffering DP user that has never really gotten past the basics because of the small fonts and the complexity of DP for my simple drummers mind. There’s some basic functions (editing:cut and paste,routing etc….) I have never figured out.
I actually just bought the DP10 upgrade a couple of weeks ago so I got DP11 for free,I haven’t installed 11 yet I want to wait for at least one update but I definitely want to delve more into DP & get more fluent with it.
Don’t say I didn’t warn you 😱


----------



## dts_marin

I'm also returning to DP after 2 frustrating years of trying to find an alternative. 

Tried a very customised workflow in Reaper and it worked *fantastically* for non-film projects but anything with timecode was very hard compared to DP.

I tried Cubase and it was fine, a very robust and mature DAW but I'm not a fan of Steinberg. You need a software that downloads the software which downloads the software. 

I tried S1 but again no advanced timecode sync features. Logic and PT weren't an option either because of various reasons.


----------



## studioj

Dewdman42 said:


> I've been playing with the DP11 demo a bit and I think I'm gonna spring for it. This is likely going to become my primary daw actually. Mainly because of chunks, and MOTU did listen and implement articulation management, though I still hope for a few improvements that likely won't come, but I can hope; its on par with all the other DAW's in this dept anyway. I find DP11 to be quite smooth in operation compared to previous versions. They finally got rid of all the tiny fonts. MOTU, I'm back....


very cool. I'm also an original DP user... started circa DP2 (I remember DP2.7 fondly) or so with some limited experience with plain old performer too. but moved to mostly Logic eventually. I keep my eye on DP and have maybe purchased 2 upgrades over the years but haven't dived back in. Bought this update last week though and have been enjoying it. I'm not sure I can get back into the workflow of separate VI channels and MIDI tracks across the board...especially for simpler non-templately things... but I might give it a go for something! Kudos to MOTU for doing the articulation maps. @Dewdman42 - I've been using "Project Alternatives" in Logic now for the last year or 2 and I do like the workflow. It's not quite as flexible or cool as chunks but its something that helps keep the session folders a little cleaner and versioning a little simpler. I also love the Logic "Patch" workflow and have mostly stopped using templates and load as I go with an extensive set of patches saved of the instruments I use.


----------



## synergy543

I just upgraded to DP 11 from DP9.5 and I'm thrilled with many of the new very useful features (Region > Retrospective Record, Articulation mapping, etc.). Still, there are many tips and tricks on using DP which are hard to find as there are few recent tutorial videos on YT or anywhere else that I can find.

For example, new users might not know about the very useful "dot trick". While the manual is very deep, it would be great to know of other consolidated shortcut tips and tricks with DP. Even a list of keyboard shortcuts is hard (for me) to find as they are scattered throughout the manual as text rather than as a consolidated chart. If there is such a thing that you know of though, please do share!

Hiro's Dot Trick

Assuming your main time format is bars and beats, hit the dot key on your keypad, then type in the bar number you want to locate to.
Hit the dot again and type in the beat number. For real precision, hit it again and type the tick number.
Press the Enter key to get DP to locate to the point you just specified.


----------



## Al Maurice

Hi @synergy543, I found that dot trick today purelyby accident whilst I was working on a couple of cues. It's strange how these things happen, whilst reaching for 3, I inadvently hit the dot instead, and et voila it lit up the bar number in the transport box.

There's so many features just buried under the surface in DP, which makes composing music and mixing down your tracks a breeze. Fortunately most of the core functionality hasn't changed for a while, so you can usually find a video which covers that one obsure feature. I would have thought over time some of the new features will be covered too, maybe by some users of VI-control


----------



## JohnG

DP 11 so far is a fantastic upgrade for me, from 10.x


----------



## Dewdman42

studioj said:


> I'm not sure I can get back into the workflow of separate VI channels and MIDI tracks across the board...especially for simpler non-templately things...



Yea I'd like to see them make combined "instrument tracks" that work like most other DAW's...there are many cases where it would result in less tracks... On the other hand, if you end up using V-Racks it becomes a moot point and actually makes more sense to have midi tracks seperate from instrument tracks. (_put the instrument tracks in the V-Rack and midi tracks in the sequence_). 

There is that feature to hide/show tracks by type...which can be very useful if you are keeping both midi and instrument hosting in the sequence... and often that is still necessary due to non-midi automation of the instrument...so there is always that. Can always put them all in a folder too, its not that big of a deal. 

But anyway, some people have complained about the two-track-tango that DP requires, for quite some time...but MOTU hasn't budged on it...and I kind of doubt they will. (shrug)

@synergy543 thanks for the tip about the dot trick, I didn't know about that and that would be absolutely indispensable in a film project.

DP also has that run command feature...which I never used before, but I am quite sure I will use that as much as I use OSX Spotlight, which I use like 50 times a day. Its something that could be very easily controlled with KeyboardMaestro also, so it will be interesting to see where I get with that.


----------



## dts_marin

I think DP's mixer doesn't make the transition to a combined instrument track with MIDI easier. Imagine how messy it would be to place both Audio & MIDI FXs on the same UI. If they add a separate section bellow or above Inserts it would make sense. But I doubt they are going to change the Mixing Board. This thing is ancient.


----------



## Dewdman42

I'd love to see DP add midi inserts for VST/Aumfx plugins on their midi tracks too...by the way..another thing LogicPro did right. Cubase also missed on that one.


----------



## shropshirelad

Dewdman42 said:


> There is that feature to hide/show tracks by type...which can be very useful if you are keeping both midi and instrument hosting in the sequence... and often that is still necessary due to non-midi automation of the instrument...so there is always that. Can always put them all in a folder too, its not that big of a deal.


I got very excited when I found all the show/hide functionality the other day. 😂


----------



## Al Maurice

I'm not sure if this is possible, has anyone managed to apply a VCA fader to groups in a vrack?

This works perfectly for all instrument tracks in the main sequence, but not in a vrack.

Am I missing something?


----------



## dts_marin

Al Maurice said:


> I'm not sure if this is possible, has anyone managed to apply a VCA fader to groups in a vrack?
> 
> This works perfectly for all instrument tracks in the main sequence, but not in a vrack.
> 
> Am I missing something?


V-Racks can't have any sorts of automation. You would lose the point of having a VCA. In fact you can't have any groups in V-Rack. Try creating a new group with instrument tracks and then move the instruments to the V-Rack and see what happens.

Edit: The only group possible in V-Rack is the temporary group (W) which can work like a VCA but of course you can't have automation. Maybe useful for setting a permanent volume setting that retains the relative volumes of different instruments.


----------



## shropshirelad

I think I may have hit the buffers - I can't find a way to change the track delay. Surely this is an absolute must for working with many libraries i.e. @audioimperia, CSS, Performance Samples. Am I missing something? It's there in plain sight in every other DAW.


----------



## dts_marin

shropshirelad said:


> I think I may have hit the buffers - I can't find a way to change the track delay. Surely this is an absolute must for working with many libraries i.e. @audioimperia, CSS, Performance Samples. Am I missing something? It's there in plain sight in every other DAW.


MIDI track Effects -> Time Shift. You can change the timebase by clicking the tiny icon.


----------



## Al Maurice

Thanks @dts_marin that's what I thought, is there any way to be able to apply automation to the instruments hosted in a vrack from tracks in a sequence?


----------



## dts_marin

Al Maurice said:


> Thanks @dts_marin that's what I thought, is there any way to be able to apply automation to the instruments hosted in a vrack from tracks in a sequence?


Most people are routing the instruments to aux tracks inside the sequence. Maybe more taxing on the CPU but I think this is the only way to have automation. V-Racks aren't made for that purpose.

Also by using aux tracks you can have different settings on the busses for each cue without having to do lots of automation. If this was done in V-Racks you'd have to change a lot of stuff at the start of each sequence.


----------



## AEF

Al Maurice said:


> Thanks @dts_marin that's what I thought, is there any way to be able to apply automation to the instruments hosted in a vrack from tracks in a sequence?


you can create aux tracks in the sequence that are fed by the vrack instruments.

then you can automate the audio returns of said instruments.


----------



## shropshirelad

dts_marin said:


> MIDI track Effects -> Time Shift. You can change the timebase by clicking the tiny icon





dts_marin said:


> MIDI track Effects -> Time Shift. You can change the timebase by clicking the tiny icon.


Brilliant, thank you!


----------



## Al Maurice

Thanks @dts_marin & @AEF just the ticket 

DP has ace routing abilities, I found that using AUX channels works equally well for VEPRO too.

This approach is quite useful for funnelling down the instrument groups into separate busses.

Due to the assignment capabilities, I could then build a lean template fairly quickly once all the instruments were separated out into its own vrack. And unlike in Studio One potentially I can further subdivide my template into various vracks.


----------



## AEF

Al Maurice said:


> Thanks @dts_marin & @AEF just the ticket
> 
> DP has ace routing abilities, I found that using AUX channels works equally well for VEPRO too.
> 
> This approach is quite useful for funnelling down the instrument groups into separate busses.
> 
> Due to the assignment capabilities, I could then build a lean template fairly quickly once all the instruments were separated out into its own vrack. And unlike in Studio One potentially I can further subdivide my template into various vracks.


Yup. I have a vrack for each type of library. so “epic low brass” and “studio low brass” and “symphony low brass” are all a separate vrack. you can then enable and disable as needed per project.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Downloaded the demo - never used DP before. The UI could really use some hover tooltips.


----------



## Dewdman42

dts_marin said:


> Most people are routing the instruments to aux tracks inside the sequence. Maybe more taxing on the CPU but I think this is the only way to have automation. V-Racks aren't made for that purpose.



In my view, this is an area where MOTU could make some improvements. for me this is a big reason to use VePro instead of V-Racks. VePro can be automated fully....V-Racks cannot.

it makes sense to automate AUX returns, as suggested, in terms of automating faders, pan, etc. However what if I need to automate a filter in Omnispheres, or an EQ plugin? 

DP can automate midi to control a plugin hosted in a V-rack, but it can't automate plugin parameters. So if the instrument provides midi control over a certain parameter then great. If the instrument expects that you would use plugin parameter automation to automate something like a filter, then DP doesn't have a way to send that data like it would be able to from a midi track in the sequence. This is a hole in functionality that I wish MOTU would create a slightly better solution.

Either make midi tracks aware of the automatable parameters on the plugin that the midi track is pointed to, or perhaps some kind of V-channel track could exist that you place on sequences which expose plugin parameters in a way that the actual automation happens on the sequence of course....but the _thing_ being automated is a parameter in a plugin on a V-rack track. That would need to include not only instrument parameters, but FX plugin parameters that may exist on a V-Rack somewhere...

So for example, I have V-racks all setup with my various orch instruments, including EQ FX plugins dialed in, etc.. But I want to automate some aspect of EQ in some way. I can't right now. I'd have to move that instrument or at least the dialed-in EQ back to a sequence to be able to do so.

VePro handles all of this quite well. There is no reason MOTU couldn't do it in V-Racks too. Or something like it. 

In my view this is a glaring omission in the V-Rack concept, which is why I never ended up using them in the past, just use VePro instead, despite the fact I would love to be able to have everything functioning entirely inside DP without VePro connections, etc.


----------



## cuttime

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Downloaded the demo - never used DP before. The UI could really use some hover tooltips.


Help Menu>Show Help Tags.


----------



## Dewdman42

another new small feature that was added to DP11, that is mentioned briefly in the manual, they added the concept of midi channel "any". if you do any routing of midi tracks through midi plugins, this drastically reduces the number of tracks required in some cases to do that! This is something I actually requested from MOTU about a year ago, so I'm thrilled to see they did it.


----------



## AEF

Dewdman42 said:


> In my view, this is an area where MOTU could make some improvements. for me this is a big reason to use VePro instead of V-Racks. VePro can be automated fully....V-Racks cannot.
> 
> it makes sense to automate AUX returns, as suggested, in terms of automating faders, pan, etc. However what if I need to automate a filter in Omnispheres, or an EQ plugin?
> 
> DP can automate midi to control a plugin hosted in a V-rack, but it can't automate plugin parameters. So if the instrument provides midi control over a certain parameter then great. If the instrument expects that you would use plugin parameter automation to automate something like a filter, then DP doesn't have a way to send that data like it would be able to from a midi track in the sequence. This is a hole in functionality that I wish MOTU would create a slightly better solution.
> 
> Either make midi tracks aware of the automatable parameters on the plugin that the midi track is pointed to, or perhaps some kind of V-channel track could exist that you place on sequences which expose plugin parameters in a way that the actual automation happens on the sequence of course....but the _thing_ being automated is a parameter in a plugin on a V-rack track. That would need to include not only instrument parameters, but FX plugin parameters that may exist on a V-Rack somewhere...
> 
> So for example, I have V-racks all setup with my various orch instruments, including EQ FX plugins dialed in, etc.. But I want to automate some aspect of EQ in some way. I can't right now. I'd have to move that instrument or at least the dialed-in EQ back to a sequence to be able to do so.
> 
> VePro handles all of this quite well. There is no reason MOTU couldn't do it in V-Racks too. Or something like it.
> 
> In my view this is a glaring omission in the V-Rack concept, which is why I never ended up using them in the past, just use VePro instead, despite the fact I would love to be able to have everything functioning entirely inside DP without VePro connections, etc.


For synths, I decided to just load in sequences instead of vracks. For stuff like NI massive, you dont have any ram penalty for this, and due to pre gen you dont have any CPU hit for it either. This way I can use different settings per chunk, automatable.


----------



## Dewdman42

sure.. You can avoid using V-Racks in some cases, that is the only option currently. Just saying...MOTU could improve this.


----------



## babylonwaves

https://www.babylonwaves.com/digital-performer/

Art Conductor for DP is out  For us, this is a kind of soft launch, because the product video on our website is missing and I probably can't get it done before leaving for vacation. At the same time, I don't want anybody to buy Art Conductor Cubase version, the import to DP would be a compromise. We've invested a lot of time to assign a lot of meaningful symbols to the articulations and those are simply not a part of that Cubase can offer. And there's the colours, which can't be changed in Cubase. Yeah, I know, you'll think WTF those are only colours. But then, when you have to look at them the whole time, a good colour palette helps a lot to keep keep you sane and sound.

I won't make an official announcement for now and just post to this thread for the upcoming days. For all those who want to start converting from multi lane to articulations, I think DP has a lot to offer, especially with Art Conductor.

Best, Marc


----------



## 60s Pop Man

zolhof said:


> David Das posted an excellent video on the new articulation maps feature:



Here's another useful demonstration of DP 11 articulations


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

What's the best place / series of videos for total newbies to DP to get caught up on the general approach / workflow?


----------



## 60s Pop Man

*Free*
Bo Astrup, excellent assortment of videos


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIDBJnsBsW3KQeUn7fjFdSw



MOTU TV


https://www.youtube.com/user/motuTV



*Commercial*





Digital Performer Tutorial Videos - Learn Digital Performer at...


Learn Digital Performer with easy to follow tutorial videos for beginner to advanced. Access over 1000 hours of video dedicated to your studio tools with the Groove3 All-Access Pass.




www.groove3.com


----------



## Mishabou

Does DP offers track presets similar to PT or CB ?


----------



## Dewdman42

yes


----------



## Mishabou

Dewdman42 said:


> yes


Is there a You tube video showing how it works ?

Can you search, drag and drop a patch into your sequence ?

Thanks Dewman42


----------



## Dewdman42

I have no idea if there is a video or not.

I don't think there is drag and drop functionality per say...but I could be wrong..I'm by no means a DP guru


----------



## Al Maurice

Mishabou said:


> Can you search, drag and drop a patch into your sequence ?


Drag and drop is something that SO uses extensively to select items from its browser. DP has now implemented this with their content browser which probably most mimics the functionality in other DAWs:




Otherwise DP works similarly when it comes to any assets such as soundbites and midi, which can either be dragged and dropped from various browser windows or the file explorers in the OS. Very handy indeed.

Traditionally presets are a different matter, as DP uses drop down menus and selection boxes for that.

In the mixing boards channel strip, it's possible to recall whole chains of plugins with their preset settings:




Also you can organise them in various categories. DP by default divides them between instrument, effects and by manufacturer:


----------



## babylonwaves

Art Conductor for DP11 is official. Watch the video:






Art Conductor for Digital Performer


Hey VIC, Art Conductor 7 for MOTU Digital Performer 11 is out. Featuring a galore of articulation maps supporting +500 commercial orchestra libraries. With unified key switches, detailed score symbols and colours codes your shrink will happily approve ;) For those, who don't know Babylonwaves...




vi-control.net


----------



## cmillar

MOTU does a fantastic job at supporting Mac users who don't subscribe to the 'must have' the "latest-greatest" new Mac and OSX.

- DP11 works fantastically well (best version yet) on my 2009 MacPro (5.1) running High Sierra and using the stock video card. 32 Gig RAM and full SSD's.
- perfect on my 2015 MacBookPro with High Sierra

And, I'm still using my original 2005 MOTU Traveler interface after all these years! It's been bomb-proof and still sounds great. Have only needed to upgrade MIDI drivers when MOTU puts them out.

I used Cubase for over a year during the pandemic to see what what all the excitement was about. It's good for sure. Did some projects with it that worked out well.

But, I discovered that Cubase is 'harder' on my CPU than DP is. Other crazy things I don't like about Cubase is sometimes the software doesn't recognize the dongle upon opening, and I have to reboot or re-insert the dongle. Plus, Cubase makes you install their insanely large sound library. There are some excellent instruments that are included, but it's crazy that they have to be so tied into the main Cubase code or whatever in order to just open up the DAW.

VEP7 works 'better' in DP on my same computer....easy hook-up, easy to understand routings, etc.

I can't upgrade Cubase anymore due to it's OSX limitations for my machines unless I spend a pile of money to make hardware changes. Just not worth it to me to do that.

DP has so many offerings and features built into it that there are things in there that I haven't even used yet during my 25 years of using DP. Crazy!

I'm more 'musical' and think more creatively in DP, so that kind of settles things.


----------



## 60s Pop Man

So, no surprise that articulation maps also work with hardware sound modules. The images show a starter map for the Integra-7.


----------



## EgM

Wondering if the Windows version is finally usable...Also, the velocity handles are so weird to use, has something changed in that regard?


----------



## 60s Pop Man

EgM said:


> Wondering if the Windows version is finally usable...Also, the velocity handles are so weird to use, has something changed in that regard?


The note velocity graphics are now similar to the way Logic represents velocity. This was implemented in DP 10.


----------



## EgM

60s Pop Man said:


> The note velocity graphics are now similar to the way Logic represents velocity. This was implemented in DP 10.


Thanks for the response, I have DP10 but it really does seem much smaller than in Logic


----------



## JohnG

EgM said:


> Thanks for the response, I have DP10 but it really does seem much smaller than in Logic


You can change the GUI now, far more than in previous versions. And there are several preference changes you can make in the graphic editor (if that's what you're talking about) that allow you to customise it.

I am surprised at how much more nimble DP 11 seems to be than v10. It's great so far.


----------



## Broth3rz

How is this better than Cubase?


----------



## Toecutter

Broth3rz said:


> How is this better than Cubase?


It's not and Cubase isn't better than DP, different software, different approaches, legendary DAWs for composers



multiple sequences, chunks and vracks are enough reasons to learn DP if you are on a Mac computer. Windows version is an afterthought and very unreliable, still not ready for professional work based on my experience.


----------



## Dewdman42

The cubase comment earlier was stupid.

I am trying to work with DP11 because of Chunks. DP definitely still has numerous things that are behind the curve compared to say LogicPro and Cubase...we can sit here all day long listing them off again...and I can equally find things where LogicPro and Cubase are behind the curve. Tribalistic nonsense...


----------



## Dewdman42

I do have to say though, this morning I made the mistake of doing a completely fresh install of DP11, and now I'm stuck in an endless crashing loop while trying to scan plugins during startup. I have been hacking away at this for 3 hours already...can't get it up and running properly with all my plugins. 

I think yesterday I was working because I upgraded from a previous version and it retained some kind of plugin cache or something...so never really tried to scan anything. I was having trouble scanning VST3 though, so I uninstalled DP completely, including all traces of any plugin caches, etc.. but now I had a lot of trouble getting through VST2 scanning, but eventually got there after a few dozen crashes during that process, but trying to scan AU or VST3 is a fools errand...and when I try to start DP it just quickly crashes faster then I can even click on the "skip" button...

Some success examining plugins one at a time, and when I find one that crashes DP during scanning...and there are a few popular plugins that should not be having any problems, but anyway, one by one will take me many hours to get my 1000+ plugins scanned into this software.

MOTU tech support was not any help at all so far..

anyone have any suggestions for how to get DP past the plugin scanning stages?

Looking forward to getting back to the new features and I agree with others that DP11 seemed snappier on my system before I decided to do a fresh install of DP...but now I'm kind stuck in the water, can't even start it up...


----------



## Dewdman42

DP must have the absolutely worst plugin validation engine in the business...I've never seen anything event remotely this bad on any other DAW.


----------



## 60s Pop Man

Dewdman42 said:


> I do have to say though, this morning I made the mistake of doing a completely fresh install of DP11, and now I'm stuck in an endless crashing loop while trying to scan plugins during startup. I have been hacking away at this for 3 hours already...can't get it up and running properly with all my plugins.
> 
> I think yesterday I was working because I upgraded from a previous version and it retained some kind of plugin cache or something...so never really tried to scan anything. I was having trouble scanning VST3 though, so I uninstalled DP completely, including all traces of any plugin caches, etc.. but now I had a lot of trouble getting through VST2 scanning, but eventually got there after a few dozen crashes during that process, but trying to scan AU or VST3 is a fools errand...and when I try to start DP it just quickly crashes faster then I can even click on the "skip" button...
> 
> Some success examining plugins one at a time, and when I find one that crashes DP during scanning...and there are a few popular plugins that should not be having any problems, but anyway, one by one will take me many hours to get my 1000+ plugins scanned into this software.
> 
> MOTU tech support was not any help at all so far..
> 
> anyone have any suggestions for how to get DP past the plugin scanning stages?
> 
> Looking forward to getting back to the new features and I agree with others that DP11 seemed snappier on my system before I decided to do a fresh install of DP...but now I'm kind stuck in the water, can't even start it up...


In my case, a new installation on an M1 Mac results in mixed authorization
- All VST 3 plug-ins failed except for NI Super 8, RC 24 and 48.

- VST 2 passed: Guitar Right 6, Kontakt, B4, Absyth, but not FM8.

No surprise, Cubase has no issues with scanning VST 2 and 3.

- AU: HALion 6 passes but Groove Agent 5 doesn't resulting in the need for a forced quit. I'm using AU versions of Komplete 13 instruments even though some VST 2 versions passed.

This doesn't seem to be new to DP11 as I recall previous versions having difficulty scanning plug-ins.


----------



## 60s Pop Man

Dewdman42 said:


> DP must have the absolutely worst plugin validation engine in the business...I've never seen anything event remotely this bad on any other DAW.


Sadly, I have to agree with you on this point.


----------



## Dewdman42

I'm having way worse problems with DP11 then I have had in the past. I recall it being problematic, but this is absolutely ridiculous. Plus in addition to having problems with mainstream plugins that it shouldn't be having problems with... the way they have design the scanning process is idiotic....it easily gets stuck in a crash loop like this I can't get out of...no logging whatsoever about which plugins are having problems in validation, etc.. can't even troubleshoot it or tell it to ignore those ones, etc.. I'[ve wasted 3 hours already today on this.


----------



## JohnG

Dewdman42 said:


> I'm having way worse problems with DP11 then I have had in the past. I recall it being problematic, but this is absolutely ridiculous.



Ironically, I'm finding it's the best version of DP MOTU has released in a long time, maybe ever. Sorry you're having trouble.

There's a FB group called MOTUGuru, and maybe other groups. Possibly someone there can help.

If you're on a new Mac, you're also potentially contending with Big Sur, and some software is not qualified for it. DP is, but some interfaces aren't, and some plugins aren't ready yet. 

IDK -- maybe it's MOTU's foulup but no problems here on Catalina.


----------



## babylonwaves

As for Plug-In validation in DP: A short while ago I've installed DP11 for the first time. It scanned over 400 AUs: it look a while and finished without a single issue. On Big Sur.


----------



## Dewdman42

JohnG said:


> Ironically, I'm finding it's the best version of DP MOTU has released in a long time, maybe ever.



That is exactly the impression I was getting yesterday before I did a clean uninstall and fresh install. I think maybe it was running on some plugin cache's carried over from the previous version or something... But like you I was thinking exactly the same thing...seemed smoother, like they did some under the covers work...

but last night attempted fresh install because I was in fact having problems even yesterday trying to scan my VST3 plugins. But now...caches gone...trying to rescan from scratch...its crash city.





JohnG said:


> If you're on a new Mac, you're also potentially contending with Big Sur, and some software is not qualified for it. DP is, but some interfaces aren't, and some plugins aren't ready yet.



Nope, not a new Mac. 5,1 running Catalina.

People without issues are not providing any helpful info FWIW.


----------



## Dewdman42

Part of the problem is MOTU's idiotic design in their scanning process. It crashes way too easily without any report or log of what caused the crash during scanning. So there is no way to go disable the problematic ones or even find out which ones are problematic. I'm literally stuck in a loop now where it will start up, quickly show a dialog that its going to scan plugins, then crashes. There is a skip button but that I have tried furiously to press for the past half hour about 50 times...and I am not fast enough to press it. next launch does the same thing again. Idiotic design frankly and a complete waste of time for me.


----------



## jim2b

Dewdman42 said:


> Part of the problem is MOTU's idiotic design in their scanning process. It crashes way too easily without any report or log of what caused the crash during scanning. So there is no way to go disable the problematic ones or even find out which ones are problematic. I'm literally stuck in a loop now where it will start up, quickly show a dialog that its going to scan plugins, then crashes. There is a skip button but that I have tried furiously to press for the past half hour about 50 times...and I am not fast enough to press it. next launch does the same thing again. Idiotic design frankly and a complete waste of time for me.


I don’t know if this will help, but if you go to DP preferences/audio plugins, you can re-examine the plugins one at a time. Highlight the plugin and click re-examine.

Good luck,

Jim


----------



## Dewdman42

yea, for a while I was doing that this morning, painstakingly slow since I have something like 2000 plugins to get through including all three formats... but nonetheless I can't even do that now because I can't start up DP..it just crashes and no way to get past the scanning crash... no way to tell which plugin is causing the crash, though if I wanted to scan them one at a time, presuming I am able to start over again...I could at least know which one is causing the crash...and remove it form my plugins folder...even though some of them are plugins I actually want to use, but still I could probably get through it that way, but it will take quite a lot of time to do that....


----------



## dts_marin

Passing MOTU's VST3 examiner must be the ultimate challenge for developers. Like wielding the excalibur or lifting up Thor's hammer. DP10 refused to scan Fabfilter plugins... one of the most respectable companies in the field. Fabfilter had to fix the issues? themselves. 

I have a soft spot for MOTU but sometimes they are making things harder than usual.


----------



## Dewdman42

I am definitely excited about using DP11 with the new articulation mapper and chunks! Spent the past 5 days watching DP videos and all the rest.

Pretty unimpressed by their plugin scanning at the moment.


----------



## kgdrum

@Dewdman42
No sure if this will help if you can’t even get DP up and running but if I know what plug-ins are not passing AU validation I will designate them to be seen as VST instead of AU.I have some AU plugins that DP will not pass or recognize I setup DP to see them as VST.
From what I’m reading part of the issue might be DP and VST3 implementation. I have only bought a few plug-ins that I’ve downloaded and installed as VST3 plug-ins and I haven’t installed 11 yet,I’m someone who will always try to wait until at least a 11.01 before upgrading.
At least with DP you have a choice between AU & VST’s,I’m sure you will get this solved, patience my friend………….


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Broth3rz said:


> How is this better than Cubase?


Chunks are a pretty unique feature and can be super handy, especially for film scoring. On the flip side, I do think the UI is more complicated to pick up than many other DAWs (just in my experience as somebody who owns and is very adept at 4-5 DAWs). They do offer a 30 day demo which is nice but I found it too much effort to re-learn workflow in DP given their unique approaches.


----------



## Dave Connor

60s Pop Man said:


> The note velocity graphics are now similar to the way Logic represents velocity. This was implemented in DP 10.


Except that in Logic you can grab any part of the handle and move it. DP still only allows for the tiny dot to be selected which remains an excruciating mouse move. Very disappointed by that.

Also, the Option-drag of a specific number of bars at the top of the midi editing window (which then expands the window to those selected bars) has become: select-menu-scroll-click. Really puts the brakes on workflow. [Unless anyone knows how to restore that function that’s been around a long time.]


----------



## JohnG

Dave Connor said:


> DP still only allows for the tiny dot to be selected which remains an excruciating mouse move.


Dave, you can grab the note more easily in the graphic editor -- you can grab any portion of the line if you do it in the area where the cc data is (at the bottom). Alternatively, you can change the preference of the graphic editor so you can grab any part of the note in the top part too.


----------



## Dave Connor

JohnG said:


> Dave, you can grab the note more easily in the graphic editor -- you can grab any portion of the line if you do it in the area where the cc data is (at the bottom). Alternatively, you can change the preference of the graphic editor so you can grab any part of the note in the top part too.


Thanks John, I was referring to the cc area at the bottom actually. I was unable to grab the handles there - only the small square to the left of the handle. Is there a preference to change that? I couldn’t find one.

I do understand that you can select the note in the graphic editor above and drag up and down for velocity now but didn’t try it. Essentially I was trying to work in DP as I normally do to see any enhancements or drawbacks from DP 8 or 9.


----------



## Lukas

Did anybody mention that DP11 supports the PreSonus Sound Variations API? So DP is the first DAW (apart from Studio One) to implement this feature.


----------



## shropshirelad

60s Pop Man said:


> Sadly, I have to agree with you on this point.


+1 This caused me no end of problems when first installing. MOTU Tech have suggested just running Audio Units, which I'm doing. Not ideal, esp as I can't access certain features that require VST3s. Oh & Kontakt/BBC SO etc fail VST3 validation. Useless.


----------



## Dewdman42

I personally had more trouble scanning AU’s then VST. Vst3 has been very problematic. Still working through it now. The biggest problem is that DP’s validation engine crashes easily and then does t tell you why. Trying to figure out which of your 1000 plugins is the problem is very difficult unless you literally scan them one at a time, which is very time consuming.

But the best approach is to choose either VST or AU as the primary type, it will run a full scan and probably crash a few times. I had horrible results with AU, it got stuck in some kind of crash loop. Vst however managed to scan through with only only a dozen crashes and restarts. Ten or so plugins didn’t pass but examining those one by one from the plugin manager managed to pass a few more, not quite all.

After that pick and choose a few Vst3 or AU examine on an as needed basis. These should be done only one at a time just in case it crashes so that you’ll know which plugin is the problem. Sometimes also DP seems to keep some internal list of plugins you intended to validate so later on after a crash it will keep trying to validate that list again even though you didn’t ask for it. I finally found the way around that is by hitting the “mark the rest invalid” button which somehow clears that Internal list while canceling the scan. So if you only try to examine one plugin at a time you can figure out what works and what doesn’t. It’s time consuming but using this methodical approach can get to something that works.

I have found quite a few vst3 don’t pass

Motu tech support has not been very helpful to be honest. This is an area motu should improve the product IMHO


----------



## Dewdman42

Ps i tried the synchron sound variation feature and can confirm it works


----------



## Toecutter

Dewdman42 said:


> Motu tech support has not been very helpful to be honest. This is an area motu should improve the product IMHO


Yep they have people complaining about the locked webinars for over a year and nothing gets done. Imagine having hundreds of hours of educational material and choosing to alienate your customers (current and prospective) after a big release like DP11. It doesn't surprise me that Sound variations aren't even mentioned on the website or manual


----------



## Symfoniq

Dewdman42 said:


> I personally had more trouble scanning AU’s then VST. Vst3 has been very problematic. Still working through it now. The biggest problem is that DP’s validation engine crashes easily and then does t tell you why. Trying to figure out which of your 1000 plugins is the problem is very difficult unless you literally scan them one at a time, which is very time consuming.
> 
> But the best approach is to choose either VST or AU as the primary type, it will run a full scan and probably crash a few times. I had horrible results with AU, it got stuck in some kind of crash loop. Vst however managed to scan through with only only a dozen crashes and restarts. Ten or so plugins didn’t pass but examining those one by one from the plugin manager managed to pass a few more, not quite all.
> 
> After that pick and choose a few Vst3 or AU examine on an as needed basis. These should be done only one at a time just in case it crashes so that you’ll know which plugin is the problem. Sometimes also DP seems to keep some internal list of plugins you intended to validate so later on after a crash it will keep trying to validate that list again even though you didn’t ask for it. I finally found the way around that is by hitting the “mark the rest invalid” button which somehow clears that Internal list while canceling the scan. So if you only try to examine one plugin at a time you can figure out what works and what doesn’t. It’s time consuming but using this methodical approach can get to something that works.
> 
> I have found quite a few vst3 don’t pass
> 
> Motu tech support has not been very helpful to be honest. This is an area motu should improve the product IMHO


Can you turn the problem into a "binary search"? In other words, move half the plug-ins into another folder, and then scan only the first half of your plug-ins. If you still have a crash, halve the number of plug-ins in that folder again, repeating the process until you don't get a crash. Still time-consuming, no doubt, but perhaps not as much so.


----------



## Leigh

Dewdman42 said:


> yea, for a while I was doing that this morning, painstakingly slow since I have something like 2000 plugins to get through including all three formats... but nonetheless I can't even do that now because I can't start up DP..it just crashes and no way to get past the scanning crash... no way to tell which plugin is causing the crash, though if I wanted to scan them one at a time, presuming I am able to start over again...I could at least know which one is causing the crash...and remove it form my plugins folder...even though some of them are plugins I actually want to use, but still I could probably get through it that way, but it will take quite a lot of time to do that....


So sorry you are in such a mess. Does holding down the Shift key when starting DP help with the crashing?

**Leigh


----------



## Dewdman42

Of course but that also disables audiio. When you enable audio DP immediately resumes the same plugin scan and crashes within a few seconds


----------



## Leigh

Dewdman42 said:


> Of course but that also disables audiio. When you enable audio DP immediately resumes the same plugin scan and crashes within a few seconds


Sorry.


----------



## JohnG

Dave Connor said:


> Thanks John, I was referring to the cc area at the bottom actually. I was unable to grab the handles there - only the small square to the left of the handle. Is there a preference to change that? I couldn’t find one.


Hi Dave -- honestly I don't know how you toggle it on / off. I actually would prefer to have it off but was working on some cc data and kept inadvertently selecting notes by their "tails," so I know with v11 you can do it. Don't know how!


----------



## kgdrum

One thought just occurred to me and I’m wondering if other long time DP users here agree with me. I have NEVER seen a upgrade release of DP create so much buzz and excitement and it’s not just here, I see threads in all of the forums like GS,KVR & Motunation with more posts and comments (mostly positive) than I think I’ve ever seen before for a DP release.
This looks like a very promising new chapter for MOTU,DP and DP users.


----------



## babylonwaves




----------



## JohnG

kgdrum said:


> I have NEVER seen a upgrade release of DP create so much buzz and excitement


Nor I. But I can see why people are happy; it's so much smoother and more nimble than anything for a long time. Loving it. Lots of little fixes and I hear from Matt LaPoint that they put in "lots of optimizations."

The notation editor adds crucial bits that mean you could create finished parts more easily from it. I use notation all the time, so that's one that appeals to me. But lots of little, thoughtful things are helping. Example: clicking on a note in the graphics editor, when you have multiple tracks open in that window, automatically selects the track. Seems obvious and maybe overdue, but really welcome.


----------



## Dewdman42

Dewdman42 said:


> Pretty unimpressed by their plugin scanning at the moment.



For anyone following this drama or in the future looking for help, I found a solution. The trick is run DP with the following command line option:



Code:


--disable_crash_reporter


You can read more about that here if you plug your nose while visiting this forum: https://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=61800&p=525976&hilit=crash+log+script#p525976

Basically disabling the crash reporter caused DP11 to not crash at all for me while scanning all my plugins. Scanned them all, top to bottom, VST, AU, VST3....no crash.

Not all passed... but pretty much all my VST/AU did. AirWindows had a problem. There are more then a couple VST3 that did not pass, like Kontakt and pretty much all of U-He, but quite a lot of VST3 did pass. But more importantly, it didn't crash, I didn't get stuck in a crash loop and it was easy, all done in a few minutes...

So my advice is, use that mode whenever scanning plugins on DP. I might actually setup DP to always launch that way so that I don't ever forget or get caught in a situation where something tries to scan and starts crashing it again. it only means that if I have a legitimate crash while using the program, MOTU won't get a report about it.

I suspect there are problems in DP's crash reporter mechanism where when plugins fail scans in some cases, it pukes up the program rather then sending a report and going on to the next plugin. This option just makes sure to scan all the plugins and ignore a report to MOTU.


----------



## studioj

Lukas said:


> Did anybody mention that DP11 supports the PreSonus Sound Variations API? So DP is the first DAW (apart from Studio One) to implement this feature.


Wow! thanks for this heads up. I was kind of wondering about it, it looked very similar. Way to go Presonus for developing an open protocol that could be adopted by other daws. Impressed!


----------



## kgdrum

@Dewdman42 
Wow! You found a great solution congratulations! I dread at some point trying to find and install VST3 versions of probably 99% of all of my plug-ins. Generally I only install AU and VST2 when I install plug-ins……….Fun times ahead,lol


----------



## dts_marin

MOTU's VST3 examiner:


----------



## 60s Pop Man

dts_marin said:


> MOTU's VST3 examiner:


I just reported this VST3 issue as a Tech Link at MOTU and referenced thread here:
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/now-here-motu-dp11.111728/page-9 






DP11 and Sound Variations!


This just in:




vi-control.net





Maybe if enough of us make some noise about this they will expedite a resolution. In the meantime, I'm really enjoying the use of Studio One 5.3, VST3 instruments, and automatic sound variation (ariticulation map) creation.


----------



## Dewdman42

Squeaky wheel gets the grease


----------



## Al Maurice

Has anyone experienced any issues with the song feature when trying to write back or merge to the conductor track, as it keeps crashing the daw for me?


----------



## Dave Connor

Dave Connor said:


> Also, the Option-drag of a specific number of bars at the top of the midi editing window (which then expands the window to those selected bars...)


This function is still available but accessed only with the tool bar's Zoom Function (shortcut: z)

I use it constantly and thought it had been substantially altered which it hasn't.


----------



## resonate

Dave Connor said:


> Except that in Logic you can grab any part of the handle and move it. DP still only allows for the tiny dot to be selected which remains an excruciating mouse move. Very disappointed by that.
> 
> Also, the Option-drag of a specific number of bars at the top of the midi editing window (which then expands the window to those selected bars) has become: select-menu-scroll-click. Really puts the brakes on workflow. [Unless anyone knows how to restore that function that’s been around a long time.]


Examine Velocity tool. In Midi editor (with piano keys) just hold V when you go over a note, and then you can drag any part of the note to change velocity. Works well. The same story with P for pencil key - as long as you hold the key, the tool is active. Good luck!


----------



## resonate

I found that this DP version, with all the goodness that it brings, has problems with External Video output with my Aja Kona Lhi. Literally none of the modes work, Dp just hangs or returns an error.


----------



## babylonwaves

Another video by David Das:


----------



## Rubens Tubenchlak

babylonwaves said:


> Another video by David Das:



I would like to see how a VSL complex library like Elite strings works with Babylon waves... Any chance of a video about it? How the different longs and legatos are organised?


----------



## AEF

Rubens Tubenchlak said:


> I would like to see how a VSL complex library like Elite strings works with Babylon waves... Any chance of a video about it? How the different longs and legatos are organised?


You dont need to use them for Synchron libraries as they automatically import to DP11 if using VST3.


----------



## Rubens Tubenchlak

AEF said:


> You dont need to use them for Synchron libraries as they automatically import to DP11 if using VST3.


saw the video from Steve Steele but didn't worked for me. have you tried already? If yes, it will works also when inside VEP?


----------



## AEF

Rubens Tubenchlak said:


> saw the video from Steve Steele but didn't worked for me. have you tried already? If yes, it will works also when inside VEP?


it has to be hosted in DP. yes it works.


----------



## Rubens Tubenchlak

AEF said:


> it has to be hosted in DP. yes it works.


yes, I have followed the instructions but still nothing happened. Something is missing no idea what


----------



## AEF

Rubens Tubenchlak said:


> yes, I have followed the instructions but still nothing happened. Something is missing no idea what


 Are you using VST3


----------



## Rubens Tubenchlak

AEF said:


> Are you using VST3


sure, it wasn't first installed but then I did install it


----------



## cuttime

I'm kind of amazed about DP 11. Seems to be a solid, welcome upgrade for most, but damn, the near silence in marketing and lack of documentation in the (usually informative) manual is weird. Literally all I know about the new release has been gleaned from user comments and third party videos. This just confirms my belief that the MOTU staff is stretched nearly to the breaking point, and one employee is likely to be wearing many hats. I assume the third party people are beta testers?


----------



## Al Maurice

Really enjoying using this DAW, really straightforward to compose in. All my libraries sound well here not too murky.

Got my tempo mapping down to the movie, moved my bars to the right places, placed my key signatures. Tried to play my ideas into chunks (their seminal feature), and the conductor track won't merge properly. So had to resort to using the main sequence -- not so good.


----------



## Rubens Tubenchlak

AEF said:


> Are you using VST3


Found the way!!!!


----------



## 60s Pop Man

60s Pop Man said:


> I just reported this VST3 issue as a Tech Link at MOTU and referenced thread here:
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/now-here-motu-dp11.111728/page-9
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DP11 and Sound Variations!
> 
> 
> This just in:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe if enough of us make some noise about this they will expedite a resolution. In the meantime, I'm really enjoying the use of Studio One 5.3, VST3 instruments, and automatic sound variation (ariticulation map) creation.


MOTU tech got back to me with a video file reply - very cool, very helpful!

They are working on Kontakt 6.6 VST3 passing the plug-in scan but can't say when this will be resolved.

They also pointed out that automatic creation of articulation maps is not an absolute given with VST3 plug-ins. The function needs to be available in the plug-in.


----------



## Dewdman42

I would imagine so, glad to hear MOTU is actually working on getting Kontakt to scan and not leaving it up to NI. 

What kind of video reply did MOTU send you? that's kind of interesting....


Here are some other notable VST3's on my system that can't run as of now:



> Kontakt, fiedler audio stage, Z3TA+2, Waves Scheps Omni Channel, Waves Meta Filter, Waves CLA echospere, Bass Mint, TrackSpare, Torpedo Wall of Sound, TR5 Leslie, TR5 DeEsser, S-Gear, BlueCatAudio Patchwork, BlueCatAudio PlugNScript, OPX-Pro II, Some Melda stuff, Some Hornet stuff, Dexed, pretty much everything from U-He



Anyway, I have it from a reliable source that MOTU is putting some attention into improving the scanning process in general.... so let's hope in an update or two...everything will be improved.

But I also just want to emphasize again..I don't think as of now that anyone is missing anything by using the VST2 or AU version of Kontakt or really much else either...except for maybe OPUS and Synchron if you will be using Sound Variation feature.


----------



## 60s Pop Man

Dewdman42 said:


> What kind of video reply did MOTU send you? that's kind of interesting....


An mp4. of the tech's desktop, showing my question and other information including the BabylonWaves for DP. It really was a personalized message unlike anything from any other developer that I've experienced.






Dewdman42 said:


> I don't think as of now that anyone is missing anything by using the VST2 or AU version of Kontakt or really much else either...except for maybe OPUS and Synchron if you will be using Sound Variation feature.


In the past, I never really cared, having some vague understanding that VST versions can pass MIDI whereas AU versions not having that functionality. But now seeing the ease of setting up articulation maps and sound variations, there's now a keen interest in having Kontakt 6.6 and HALion 6.4.x VST3 pass in DP. 

Bottom line for me, hat's off to Presonus for being so progressive, and to the DP development team for DP 11. Hoping more good things are coming.


----------



## Dewdman42

60s Pop Man said:


> In the past, I never really cared, having some vague understanding that VST versions can pass MIDI whereas AU versions not having that functionality. But now seeing the ease of setting up articulation maps and sound variations, there's now a keen interest in having Kontakt 6.6 and HALion 6.4.x VST3 pass in DP.



Fair enough, but still, keep in mind that the instrument has to have implemented specific support fro Sound Variations...which you already noted..which means...when KOntkat VST3 starts to work on DP..its not going to be giving you any sound variations any time soon. In my view it would require NI to also provide new behaviors through KSP so that instrument developers can eventually implement Sound Variation into their instruments. I think that will be long ways away, years, before we will see any Sound Variations coming out of Kontakt...but we shall see.


----------



## Lukas

Dewdman42 said:


> In my view it would require NI to also provide new behaviors through KSP so that instrument developers can eventually implement Sound Variation into their instruments.


No, not necessarily. Many Kontakt libraries use the set_key_name(...) function to name keyswitches. So in this case Kontakt already knows the pitches and names of the keyswitches (also the color if a color is set via set_key_color(...)). Also the name of the instrument. So with this information, Kontakt could easily expose Sound Variations to the host.

This would automatically make even older Kontakt libraries sound variation capable - without any effort on the part of the developer. In my opinion, this would be more promising than hoping that every library developer will add Sound Variations support to all his sample libraries - which will certainly never happen with older libraries.

I *really* wish NI would do this.


----------



## Dewdman42

Lukas said:


> No, not necessarily. Many Kontakt libraries use the set_key_name(...) function to name keyswitches. So in this case Kontakt knows the pitches and the names of the keyswitches (also the color if set_key_color(...) is used as well). Also the name of the instrument. With this information, Kontakt could easily expose Sound Variations to the DAW.



nice to hear! Let's hope NI will add that to Kontakt sooner then later... Lukas does that require VST3 or could NI add that to their VST and AU version also just as easily?


----------



## Lukas

Sound Variations are possible in VST2 as well as VST3. VSL and East West just didn't implement it in the VST2 versions (yet?). So this would be possible in Kontakt / VST2 too.


----------



## Al Maurice

Sounds like a positive step -- with NI shifting their focus to their VST3 plugin version, is it likely this will be implemented in the VST2 version too?


----------



## Dewdman42

I don't think I would draw the conclusion that NI is "shifting their focus" away from VST2 or AU for that matter, they are _adding_ VST3. According to EvilDragon, it was merely ported with all the same existing features to the VST3 format, at least for now:





__





Kontakt Updates (current version: 7.0.11)


Depends if your DAW supports plugin migration AND your DAW has an option to default to VST3 then yes. Does anyone know how/whether that works for VE Pro? does that even support VST3?




vi-control.net





I interpret that to mean that _if_ they were to decide to add Sound Variation support to Kontakt, it would end up in all three formats of the plugin.


----------



## Lukas

I agree with @Dewdman42 . First of all, I don't think NI is shifting their focus. The VST3 version of Kontakt is not a "real" VST3 instrument but is still a VST2 plug-in using a VST3 wrapper. (Hence no VST3 specific features.)

Then the new VST3 version has nothing at all to do with whether they are considering implementing Sound Variations. Because they could have done that just as well in the VST2 version.

But let's be optimistic and promote as best we can how valuable this feature would be to the composer world. There are already two DAWs that can do Sound Variations and it certainly doesn't stop there. So the argument that you would only implement for one DAW here doesn't apply anymore. With VSL and East West, two leading sample players already support it... and there are more to come (I can't tell more).

The great thing is that no sample library would need to change anything as long as they expose the names of their keyswitches via set_key_name. I took a quick look at some of my favorite Kontakt libraries and found that *all of them already do that*:

- Cinematic Studio Strings / Brass / Woodwinds
- Sonuscore The Orchestra
- Spitfire OA Chamber Evolutions
- Project SAM Pandora
- Audio Imperia Areia
- Chris Hein Solo Strings

So it's just up to NI to implement Sound Variations into the player


----------



## Dewdman42

Just want to report in that I have been spending a pretty good amount of time playing around with DP11, and actually exploring more deeply some features that have actually been in DP for quite a while but I never got around to really understanding...namely _chunks_.. 

I think I have found a new home! DP chunks are winning me over big time. I had a feeling it would. Its not just chunks, but its _sequence_ chunks combined with _V-Racks_... This is going to be a complete game changer for me.

The Clips Editor is also something I overlooked previously and after watching their 90 minute covid Webinar about it...I can see that actually being quite a bit more useful than previously thought.

Some other notable features I am liking are bundles, Midi Device Groups, Clippings window, and Folder/Track mangement...my god its lightyears ahead of LogicPro in terms of Folders and the Track Selector/TrackLayouts, etc..

I love that their undo manager has branching! Wow, now that is real version control. And then we can also duplicate chunks very easily to create endless sequence variations all within one project file. 

I know I'm just scratching the surface, but I just wanted to say, I'm in...


----------



## kgdrum

What’s funny is I’m been contemplating moving from DP to Logic, I’m by no means a power user so I doubt I’d ever get into any DAW that deep. 😱 lol 
I really like Logics efficiency and it might seem silly but I love Logics iPad integration with the control app and the manual,it’s so useful and makes recording much easier when I’m play my eDrum kit.
I haven’t been able to figure out the issue we discussed last week (I will send you the file next week if I don’t solve it on my own).
Logic & DP are both extremely capable,deep and complex DAWs,learning & figuring out to take advantage of the amazing capabilities they offer for me can be quite daunting.


----------



## Dewdman42

I do think LogicPro is a little easier to get your head wrapped around, no doubt about it. For simple scenarios...I think its is more simple...DP is far more flexible in my view...but its also not entirely straightforward to figure out how to set it up unless you dig into it a bit to understand quite a few things...because it has very flexible and explicit routing, more than anything.

LogicPro tends to run into dead ends on a number of advanced scenarios... Forcing people into complicated environment setups, and sometimes running into weird multi-instrument bugs and things like that. but for simple usage, LogicPro is great. Hell you can put it into "simple" mode and its even easier, more like GarageBand...

I am suspicious that you have a master fader somewhere turned down and hidden in the problem you are having, but I'd have to see your project to say anything further.


----------



## Dewdman42

ps - I think you might be a prime candidate for StudioOne, from the sounds of it.


----------



## kgdrum

Dewdman42 said:


> ps - I think you might be a prime candidate for StudioOne, from the sounds of it.


@Dewdman42 
“ I am suspicious that you have a master fader somewhere turned down and hidden in the problem you are having, but I'd have to see your project to say anything further.”
Maybe I’m dense but wouldn’t a master fader affect all channels? 
Drummer jokes welcome 🤗


----------



## gzapper

Dewdman42 said:


> Just want to report in that I have been spending a pretty good amount of time playing around with DP11, and actually exploring more deeply some features that have actually been in DP for quite a while but I never got around to really understanding...namely _chunks_..
> 
> I think I have found a new home! DP chunks are winning me over big time. I had a feeling it would. Its not just chunks, but its _sequence_ chunks combined with _V-Racks_... This is going to be a complete game changer for me.
> 
> The Clips Editor is also something I overlooked previously and after watching their 90 minute covid Webinar about it...I can see that actually being quite a bit more useful than previously thought.
> 
> Some other notable features I am liking are bundles, Midi Device Groups, Clippings window, and Folder/Track mangement...my god its lightyears ahead of LogicPro in terms of Folders and the Track Selector/TrackLayouts, etc..
> 
> I love that their undo manager has branching! Wow, now that is real version control. And then we can also duplicate chunks very easily to create endless sequence variations all within one project file.
> 
> I know I'm just scratching the surface, but I just wanted to say, I'm in...


Chunks are super powerful if you do film work, or theatre work like I do. Just finished a show with 200 or so cues all within the same DP file. You can have one seq for spotting, select the cue time from that spot and save it to a new sequence giving you the right time code. 

V-racks are great and smart use of resources, like a small VEP rig inside DP.
Clippings are really handy, having project and universal clippings are great, save effect changes, sounds, kits, fills, runs or whatever you think you want commonly.


----------



## Dewdman42

kgdrum said:


> @Dewdman42
> “ I am suspicious that you have a master fader somewhere turned down and hidden in the problem you are having, but I'd have to see your project to say anything further.”
> Maybe I’m dense but wouldn’t a master fader affect all channels?
> Drummer jokes welcome 🤗



yes it would.

I don't know the details of your project, I haven't seen it.


----------



## Dewdman42

gzapper said:


> Chunks are super powerful if you do film work, or theatre work like I do. Just finished a show with 200 or so cues all within the same DP file. You can have one seq for spotting, select the cue time from that spot and save it to a new sequence giving you the right time code.
> 
> V-racks are great and smart use of resources, like a small VEP rig inside DP.
> Clippings are really handy, having project and universal clippings are great, save effect changes, sounds, kits, fills, runs or whatever you think you want commonly.



I see chunks as being really useful for a variety of ways


you can duplicate a sequence you are working on, and then you have a complete separate version you can try things on, copy stuff back to the first version if you want or whatever you want. Endless amounts of scratchpads to try things out.


you can construct songs or parts from sequence chunks... Very useful, I haven't been able to do that very well since the old Opcode Vision days.


If working on a theater show or a film score, you can keep separate chunks for each scene or cue...but all within the one project file, as you mentioned.


you can create endless "idea" chunks to try out some idea without leaving the project in a separate isolated sequence...which you can easily copy into another sequence you are working on if you like, or just keep around. Save them as clippings if you want even, which then can be used in completely new project files very easily.


V-Racks have the obvious advantage of being kind of like VePro where you don't have to reload instruments when switching cues, but when you are talking about building up songs from chunks, it becomes even more useful because all the parts of the song can share the same V-Rack. You can also use V-Racks for things like the master fader or various FX bus. You can create stems and submixes through a V-Rack and create different control room mixes there, etc.


you can load V-Racks on demand from other projects or from clippings, so you can create ready made V-Racks holding one or more instruments each and then just load the V-Rack's into your project as needed to bring in custom multi instrument setups.


Using V-Rack and Sequence chunks its easy to copy and try different mixes out, without losing the first mix...its still there in the project. With V-Racks you can have the entire mix in a V-Rack even if you want (excluding automation) so that a number of different songs or cues share the same basic mix.


Likewise you could setup an ideal reverb, for example, in a V-Rack...then all the songs of your album or cues of your film, or parts of a song if using chunks to build songs...will share the same reverb settings...


----------



## kgdrum

@Dewdman42 
Yeah
RME and Pearl both think the issue is not TotalMix or or the Mimic Pro,I went over this with both companies.
I don’t have this problem in Logic so I think this is some sort of DP issue.
I also had a MOTU tech look at DP via TeamViewer and he thought everything was OK,although he might be wrong,I’m really not sure.
Hopefully I will figure this out relatively soon.


----------



## Dewdman42

Whatever problem you are having is unusual I don't know anyone else having the problem you are experiencing. DP is more complicated and probably there is something about your project that is not right...resulting in undesirable results.. I don't see it as being any kind of bug in the software. Its pilot error. If MOTU tech support couldn't figure it out with you that is weird, and maybe I won't be able to either..


----------



## kgdrum

Dewdman42 said:


> Whatever problem you are having is unusual I don't know anyone else having the problem you are experiencing. DP is more complicated and probably there is something about your project that is not right...resulting in undesirable results.. I don't see it as being any kind of bug in the software. Its pilot error. If MOTU tech support couldn't figure it out with you that is weird, and maybe I won't be able to either..


I totally agree, I already know it’s pilot error & that it’s something I did wrong that I’m just not figuring out. 🤬


----------



## gzapper

kgdrum said:


> I totally agree, I already know it’s pilot error & that it’s something I did wrong that I’m just not figuring out. 🤬


What is it that's happening?
I missed it earlier in the thread.


----------



## kgdrum

gzapper said:


> What is it that's happening?
> I missed it earlier in the thread.


You are brave,lol 
I added a Mimic Pro drum module to my setup when I record in DP (midi and audio) the drums in DP are barely audible. RME & Pearl both think everything is OK. I’ve checked gain staging and everything I can think of.
When I record using Logic everything is OK
I suspect I have some weird setting or preference that’s causing the issue ,I’m just not seeing it.


----------



## gzapper

kgdrum said:


> You are brave,lol
> I added a Mimic Pro drum module to my setup when I record in DP (midi and audio) the drums in DP are barely audible. RME & Pearl both think everything is OK. I’ve checked gain staging and everything I can think of.
> When I record using Logic everything is OK
> I suspect I have some weird setting or preference that’s causing the issue ,I’m just not seeing it.


What's your signal path?
USB or analog out from the Mimic?
What's your monitor path?
Sound card?
Mixer?
Do you have busses or bundles set up for the Mimic?


----------



## kgdrum

Audio & midi to channel 5+6 into RME UCX just trying to record stereo track.
Works as expected in Logic but in DP the drums are buried even with everything maxed.
When I play and record I’m listening through the UCX everything sounds great while playing and recording but when I playback in DP it’s almost inaudible even if I mute most other tracks.
I went over this with RME,Pearl(Mimic) and MOTU, I’m sure it’s a setting preference or some kind of “filter?” that’s wrong. Otherwise everything else works well in DP, all of my other tracke(Vi’s and libraries) playback fine.
And the same exact setup works well in Logic.
Strange isn’t it?


----------



## gzapper

kgdrum said:


> Audio & midi to channel 5+6 into RME UCX just trying to record stereo track.
> Works as expected in Logic but in DP the drums are buried even with everything maxed.
> When I play and record I’m listening through the UCX everything sounds great while playing and recording but when I playback in DP it’s almost inaudible even if I mute most other tracks.
> I went over this with RME,Pearl(Mimic) and MOTU, I’m sure it’s a setting preference or some kind of “filter?” that’s wrong. Otherwise everything else works well in DP, all of my other tracke(Vi’s and libraries) playback fine.
> And the same exact setup works well in Logic.
> Strange isn’t it?


Sorry, you're not describing the problem and your methods clearly here.

What do you mean, audio and midi into channel 5+6?
I assume you mean audio in to DP channel 5 and midi to the Mimic in DP channel 6.
Or are you talking stereo audio from the Mimic into two mono channels in DP, instead of one stereo channel with inputs 5 and 6?

Your midi should be set, you record in DP and playback midi out into the Mimic.
To record audio, do you record the analog main outs of the Mimic into a stereo DP channel, using two channels on your RME?

When you monitor, are you monitoring through the RME using no latency mixing or through DP, doing live monitoring of the channel's input?

If you hit 'shift/a' it gives the audio monitor in DP, does that show the same audio levels that you see recorded on your Mimic audio recordings?

On the recorded channel, does the waveform look like its got reasonable gain, or is it nearly a flat line?


----------



## kgdrum

@gzapper
Audio into 5-6 on the UCX & midi via midi in and out. Recording and playing with DP everything sounds great.
using DP I barely can hear after recording.
Using Logic in the same EXACT setup everything is fine after recording.
So I think it’s a bad setting or preference in DP 
fwiw : all of my other tracks(VI’s and libraries) record and playback correctly using DP, it’s only when I record the Mimic using DP that this is happening.


----------



## gzapper

kgdrum said:


> @gzapper
> Audio into 5-6 on the UCX & midi via midi in and out. Recording and playing with DP everything sounds great.
> using DP I barely can hear after recording.
> Using Logic in the same setup everything is fine after recording.


Please answer the questions posted above.
How are you monitoring?
Do you see good signal levels using Audio Monitor (shift/a) in DP?
Do you see signal in the track waveform overview?

I mean it really sounds like something incredibly simple here.
Like you are monitoring the Mimic through a DP aux and then recording it to a channel whose fader is way, way down. But you aren't giving enough info to be able to tell for sure.


----------



## Dewdman42

There could also be some kind of midi thru thing happening since he has a midi out cable going back to the Mimic while recording, its possible that while recording he is hearing double the sounds because the pads trigger and the midi thru also triggers.. maybe. Just guessing. I agree, there is not enough info

sounds like he is recording both audio and midi at the same time, which is fine, but not sure which things it too quite on playback..the audio or the midi playback back into the Mimic.

kgdrum if you want to get this working I suggest you simplify massively try one step at a time until you figure out where the problem is. Try recording just audio. Try recording just midi. Inspect the midi to see what the velocities look like. Then try to playback the midi through the Mimic. Etc..one step at a time.

There are any number of reasons why you could end up with different results depending on how you armed tracks, setup the mixer, etc. so we're really just wasting time talking about it on this thread...we don't know what you did and it sounds like you don't know what you did either... 

Maybe you can have better luck with a MOTU tech using zoom while you actually attempt to record yourself with them on the phone or whatever...


----------



## Dewdman42

and BTW, I don't think there is any preference or setting that would cause this to happen, so I wouldn't hold out for a solution like that...its something about the recording or playback process you used...the signal paths and levels...


----------



## kgdrum

@Dewdman42 @gzapper
I appreciate the help and input from both of you
@gzapper You do realize I’m a drummer ? lol
I’m a confirmed imbecile when it comes to DP
Yeah I’m recording both audio and midi at the same time.
The waveforms indeed look too low, I went over this with a MOTU tech via TeamViewer before I tried Logic. The tech didn’t notice anything and was pointing fingers at either the Mimic Pro or the RME but both Pearl and RME say everything is correct.
When I subsequently tried in Logic after I talked to MOTU I found there’s no problem, so I suspect this is something screwed up with the routing or a preference,setting in DP. C7 is at 127 for the track recording midi for the Mimic Pro
All other tracks recorded in DP playback correctly.
It’s only the audio and midi playback (volume) I seem to have this problem with using the Mimic & DP

I will try all of these suggestions,
Thanks


----------



## gzapper

kgdrum said:


> @Dewdman42 @gzapper
> I appreciate the help and input from both of you
> @gzapper You do realize I’m a drummer ? lol
> I’m a confirmed imbecile when it comes to DP
> Yeah I’m recording both audio and midi at the same time.
> The waveforms indeed look too low, I went over this with a MOTU tech via TeamViewer before I tried Logic. The tech didn’t notice anything and was pointing fingers at either the Mimic Pro or the RME but both Pearl and RME say everything is correct.
> When I subsequently tried in Logic after I talked to MOTU I found there’s no problem, so I suspect this is something screwed up with the routing or a preference,setting in DP. C7 is at 127 for the track recording midi for the Mimic Pro
> All other tracks recorded in DP playback correctly.
> It’s only the audio and midi playback (volume) I seem to have this problem with using the Mimic & DP
> 
> I will try all of these suggestions,
> Thanks


I know lots of smart and tech savvy drummers.

Try these:
Check the levels into DP with audio monitor, confirm you are seeing good levels. If not, adjust your Mimic outs or sound card ins.
Play back just midi from DP into the Mimic.
Play back just audio recorded into DP from the Mimic.
Compare levels.

If the audio levels recorded look too low, then either its the routing through your mixer (if you are using one) or you are somehow not recording the same outs you are monitoring.


----------



## 60s Pop Man

Dewdman42 said:


> Just want to report in that I have been spending a pretty good amount of time playing around with DP11, and actually exploring more deeply some features that have actually been in DP for quite a while but I never got around to really understanding...namely _chunks_..
> 
> I think I have found a new home! DP chunks are winning me over big time. I had a feeling it would. Its not just chunks, but its _sequence_ chunks combined with _V-Racks_... This is going to be a complete game changer for me.
> 
> The Clips Editor is also something I overlooked previously and after watching their 90 minute covid Webinar about it...I can see that actually being quite a bit more useful than previously thought.
> 
> Some other notable features I am liking are bundles, Midi Device Groups, Clippings window, and Folder/Track mangement...my god its lightyears ahead of LogicPro in terms of Folders and the Track Selector/TrackLayouts, etc..
> 
> I love that their undo manager has branching! Wow, now that is real version control. And then we can also duplicate chunks very easily to create endless sequence variations all within one project file.
> 
> I know I'm just scratching the surface, but I just wanted to say, I'm in...


In recent years, LPX has been my primary DAW with time spent exploring the most current versions of Cubase, DP, and S1 on the side lines. For many reasons I thought LPX was the ultimate Mac DAW. Maybe it is, but DP11 is taking me back to a time when MOTU was really innovative and DP was on the cutting edge.

The list of features that are grabbing my attention, in no particular order:
- Articulation Maps and the potential for automatic mapping in VST3 (and VST2 instruments if coded by the developer to do so)

- The updated Waveform editor, Beat Detection, and the Stretch function introduced in DP 10
- I finally figured out that once beats have been detected, the Conductor track will show variable tempo maps for pieces of music with tempo changes.

- The updated Pitch correction from DP 9.5 (Absolute, Relative, and the new ZTX algorithms)

- The Effect Performance window tab
- The Audio Monitor tab - Seeing all inputs in one place has been helpful in the past when trying to identify the S/PDIF input vs. line in etc. Also seeing the red highlight of the record-enabled input.
- The MIDI Monitor - Seeing all MIDI inputs and confirming that they're online is greatly appreciated as the number of MIDI controllers and pedals have increased over the years
- MIDI Device Groups, although I do wish they could be saved as a patch vs. having to use the File>Load option.

- Being able to access the macOS AM Setup utility from DP's Setup menu.
- Creating MIDI devices in the Bundles window that update in the macOS AM Setup utility

- The Run Command window

- The awesome-looking Meter Bridge,

-And much more!

Big phat_ if_ MOTU continues to implement useful new features while retaining efficiency and stability, _then_ I'm all in!


----------



## richhickey

Dewdman42 said:


> I see chunks as being really useful for a variety of ways


Yep, once you "get" chunks it's pretty hard to do without them. They've certainly kept me on DP.

The other thing I appreciate about DP is how straightforward it is. Note I am not talking about how "intuitive" it seems to me, which is subjective, but rather the deep orthogonality to all the features and how they interact. There is very little "magic" to DP, which helps you reason about how it works. That causes many first-timers to complain (e.g. the MIDI/instrument track split), but it absolutely is a feature.

Having used and followed Cubase's and Logic's progenitors since the Atari ST days, and MOTU Performer since the same era, it's been impressive to watch DP build up its similarly massive feature set while remaining so well organized and documented. It is a power tool for sure.


----------



## Al Maurice

I find the simplicity of this DAW makes it great for getting your idea down quickly. Especially with the ability to get an overview of all parts of your composition. I really like the midi editor, and with the track selector and event list makes it an ease to adjust your parts.

For anyone who has just moved over from another DAW, have you been able to find a way to get a competitive updgrade to DP11. And how best did you achieve it?

I'm finding it's not easy over here in Europe.


----------



## 60s Pop Man

I'm not sure about in Europe, but the MOTU website in North America has competitive upgrade in the popup here:
https://motu.com/en-us/store/catalogue/digital-performer-11_489/#495. 

So does Sweetwater https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DigPerf11Cg--motu-digital-performer-11-competitive-upgrade

Here's a list of distributors from MOTU's website




__





Distributors | MOTU.com







motu.com





Maybe ask MOTU headquarters for some direction.




__





 Contact | MOTU.com







motu.com





Cheers


----------



## mjsalam

Are there any good videos demonstrating large template approaches in DP? I have some sense of how to approach it using v-racks and/or clippings but I would really like to see various approaches in action. The only stuff I've found is Steve Steele who talks about a modular template approach using clippings but doesn't get into enough detail and Davis Das who is using VEP which I am trying to move away from.


----------



## 60s Pop Man

There may be something here:


----------



## Al Maurice

@60s Pop Man -- thanks for your help on this, I've managed to procure a keycode 

In the end it took a call to their helpline, and that did the trick.


----------



## mjsalam

Can individual instruments in a v-rack be disabled or is it enable/disable at the v-rack level only? In which case would it be nuts to have each individual instrument/kontakt instance in its own v-rack?


----------



## JohnG

mjsalam said:


> Can individual instruments in a v-rack be disabled ...


yes


----------



## mjsalam

JohnG said:


> yes


Thanks @JohnG - I think I've figured it out through setting the output to "None". Which is great - though a bit of a pain.


----------



## JohnG

mjsalam said:


> ...setting the output to "None".



It's not as hard as that -- you can quickly disable any track in the V-Rack. Right at the bottom there's a little drag-down triangle. If you un-check "Enable" it's temporarily out:


----------



## mjsalam

JohnG said:


> It's not as hard as that -- you can quickly disable any track in the V-Rack. Right at the bottom there's a little drag-down triangle. If you un-check "Enable" it's temporarily out:


Wow I completely missed that little triangle! Thanks so much!


----------



## AEF

mjsalam said:


> Can individual instruments in a v-rack be disabled or is it enable/disable at the v-rack level only? In which case would it be nuts to have each individual instrument/kontakt instance in its own v-rack?


yes.

double click open the vrack in the mixing board. at the bottom of the channel strip you can click for a drop down menu that allows to enable/disable.


----------



## Al Maurice

Most of the other vrack options are accessible from the mini menu for the mixing tab, as understandably the instruments there don't show up in the tracks list.


----------



## ResSerp

The crossgrade is expensive compared to other programs.


----------



## marcus3

DP 11 looks nice thought about giving it another try. The last time I tried the dp10 demo back in 2015 it crashed every time I closed a project.


----------



## Al Maurice

@marcus3 -- actually that hasn't changed that much. Sometimes I find on Windows if I forget to close the project and go straight to exit, the daw crashes leaving me on ocassion to have to rescue the session on reopening it.

So you might want to try and see if that still happens for you.


----------



## Dewdman42

I'm not gonna lie.  I am really digging DP11 and still plan to transition over to it, but it does crash A LOT MORE then LogicPro was for me. A LOT. I actually can't remember the last time LogicPro crashed on me. But DP has crashed so many times I have lost count. I feel like some of the crashes may have been related to when I was doing complicated things with routing tracks to v-racks in complicated ways, where it worked, then when I changed things around, possibly creating broken routing or something, it would then ultimately crash. I'm just speculating now, there have been other totally different scenarios...so I don't know, but I can definitely say DP11 crashes a lot.

The good news is that it seems to have a good auto-saving engine of some kind that I can get back to what I was working on before the crash.

And also I can say that at times I have worked on it for hours and hours without a hiccup. smooth as silk. So obviously there are certain situations that can trigger it to happen. DP11 has a lot going for it and I still plan to transition, hoping a first update will be less crashing, but I concur, it crashes quite a bit... You've been warned.


----------



## Dewdman42

I also ran DP11 for a bit on Windows10 (running in bootcamp on my Mac 5,1 no less). Looked just like DP11 on MacOS....I didn't use it that long to experience whether its more or less stable...but I am happy that if I have to switch to Windows, looks like MOTU is on it.


----------



## dts_marin

Using DP on Windows since DP8 came out. DP11 is a LOT better than previous versions. Snappy, less prone to crashing, font scaling looks great. Ironically I've experienced more crashes on my Big Sur MacBook Pro. Still not perfect but at least I can work fast & without losing any data.

I hope there are DP Windows users with Ryzen Zen 3 CPUs out there to share their experiences. I really need a beefy CPU in my next DAW since I find my self working on projects with lots of synths and stuff than need processing.

I hope DP plays nicely with the 5950x or the Zen 4 equivalent.


----------



## Trensharo

Al Maurice said:


> PCs for many years reigned supreme on this side of the pond; unlike in the US, where Apple previoulsy was more dominant. Things have kind of levelled out here in the last few years, as the creative and IT fraternity have grasped onto the Macs as their platform of choice.
> 
> DP only over the last couple of years has been ported to PCs, and although it's less flaky than it was. DP tends to open up lots of files as it goes along, so over time your memory count starts decreasing. When it first opens up, I've noticed it grabs quite a bit of memory just to load in its plugins. I tend to use an app to release the memory from these apps. But still DP keeps grabbing memory as it plays through.
> 
> That's not great for Windows, as opening up lots of files leads to a crash fest down the line, when the OS thinks the program is behaving unresponsively, and eventually to prevent the OS from throwing a blue screen attempts to put the offending app into a Zombie state or worse of all throws a signal to close the app. DP then goes into a crash, and your only hope is to recover your work later when it reopens. Hopefully none of the files it's been holding open haven't been corrupted.
> 
> So I say it's a work in progress on Windows.


What FUD.


----------



## GoofyTroop

I have been a DP fan from its inception. When I did Walt Disney TV Series's allot it was the only software you could use. It was developed to midi SMPTE sync. We created a feature called "Markers" during the Goof Troop series. All the 7 -9 composers gave feedback and we perfected markers for hit points, and ability to lock. Then Streamers so you could cue in Orchestra on screen. Truly remarkable tech. Opcode had the best hit point calculator for your click (Tempo track) Opcode allowed us to get best tempo track to make stuff hit on downbeats and do all the calculations. The tempo was presented with choices so you could choose the best tempos and meters to falling music on down beats or quarter notes etc. AMAZING Tech.

I own Cubase, LogicPro, Studio one, Nuendo, DP all versions.

I find myself using DP for ALL TV and Film jobs i have done in my life so far (42 years in business) I use Cubase for commercials and Pop songs, rock, Studio sessions. I use Dorico now more for composing without piano and importing from DP to print and correct scores for "Dates" or recording session with both VST and Orchestra. If they keep improving Dorico, and add better midi implementation and easer midi interface, with features like a click track, or "Hit Track Click" and calculate tempos then it will be the top Film/Tv software ever made.

DP11 is a head of its time again, and needs some stability issues addressed. IT is awesome.
I cant boot it with VST3 selected, it crashes on launch. OR VST2 selected. So all you people who are getting DP11 First boot when you register it, you choose default format choose "AU" as default. Then when DP11 launches go to "Preferences" Select Plugins, then choose VST3 or vst2 and examine. if it passes it will check the box red for you. do this to all the needed VST3's that have functions you need. Its a work around until next rev. 

DAW is best chosen for what you do.
Scoring a film or doing episodical TV, then MOTU Digital Performer hands down. When you have a real film or TV gig you have no time, no learning curve and need to focus on composing not drum loops and guitar sounds. DP gets you through your job! Your musical editor will send midi click track with cues, timings and markers. These import right into MOTU DP flawlessly. And you attach each Chunk or Cue to mp4 or video file so you see movie or film you are scoring with audio and streamers while you score with dialog and snd efx. Truly time tested and perfection. It works perfect and you will not get sued or fired because your computer cant sync, or your $270000 orchestra is sitting there while you try to sync to film, and get your hybrid VST orchestra and the real orchestra to sync up so Orchestra can see hits and streamers. I have seen so many go down in flames because they insist on using other DAW's that end up burning up $$$$$$$ because of its missing key features not discovered until "Date" or recording session. The majors $$$$ will not be lost, it will be subtracted from your budget and you will be bankrupt or fired.

Logic Pro is great for composing and doing finished SONGS or single cues you will be doing as a ghost writer or "One Offs" where a composer knows you and needs a cue or two written for off contract or CASH price. Works great. LogicPRO works perfect for Recording sessions like orchestration, or orchestrating and adding parts on peoples albums, or songs by the major hit artists. or doing live performances on stage with band and midi and VST, recorded tracks audio while live performing. Logic Pro will NEVER crash and great for live on stage and studio sessions. Logic pro is also a great composing tool for hit songs, and composing cues.

Cuebase is very versatile, it is for some the best hit song composing tool DAW out. It works great for studio sessions and novice DAW people as it has all these awesome harmony checkers, and AI to correct your scores and songs. I love it and use it to come up with ideas and mix songs. I do not use it on film, or TV as during a live session with orchestra, and you need to quickly edit a part, or make changes it is "To many clicks" to do stuff. Yes you can do it but its to time consuming and requires allot of knowledge and experience to use Cubase. It crashed on me the times i used it on dates, not a big deal but takes to long to boot again and sync up. Dont get me wrong for some that live only with one DAW and know Cubase its the best tool for them. I just have not seen it used much in Film/Tv sessions. 

Studio one is great too. Not a fan as it fails to see my massive midi setups which i have in tower Roady cases with 4 MOTU midi express's XT using 4 banks of 8 midi instruments. 
So my racks have 4 Emu E4xt Ultras, Two Roland Integra-7's. Yamaha Montage 88, Kurzweil PC2R, Two Roland Fantom Xr's, Yamaha Tx816, Yamaha Motif-Rack xs, All the emu Proteus lines, Midi Moog, Prophit VS rack, Roland TR808, Korg m1R, 2 Korg Wavestation SR,
Roland D550, Emu EIIIxpr, Bricasti reverb. List goes on. You get the gist. Allot of gear to produce a play along with live Orchestra on film and TV dates,. Need Sync to house SMPTE,
a DAW that sees all this stuff. Studio One did not see my stuff and so i only use it with vST stuff and it works great for composing hit songs via macs. Not a fan but some request it so I use it with aspirin.

Steinberg Dorico is my new favorite to Score Films or TV episodes with no piano or keyboard. IF you know how to compose on paper and old school this is your answer. Dorico makes you better! A better patient person and a orchestrator and composer. It is amazing once you learn the keystrokes to get to stuff fast. IT works awesome with VSL (Vienna Libraries) If you truly know how to compose music and can write music on paper then you are in heaven. Dorico will get you to the date with score, parts transposed, cue sheets and you look like a pro! You will need to buy a huge epson printer (I own one) it prints huge master conducting scores, and parts on film thick paper that is archival ink and will not erode for 150 years, and you can spill coffee on it and it will spill off. Just bring Color Sharpies to date so you can pass them out to players and yourself to make changes. 
Its the goto solution for your next Steven Spielberg film! You will need it and make GOB's $$$$$$ of money by being your own copyist. One job will pay for your $12 k Epson 68" wide printer and the paper and the ink. Everyone at major studios says "WOW: these look great and the players love the bigger photo paper. (You will say "WOW" when you get the $26k for being your own copyist. 

DP11 is your best bet IF you plan on having a career in Film and TV, if you are a song writer it works great too. You will never be unhappy. Its the best software out AND it supports older computers. MOTU is awesome to support older Mac Pro's 4.1 and 5.1 models. Other companies only work with newer Mac 
Pros that cost as much as a home or high end Sports car. Just not doable for 99%.

I love DP11 interface and the EVENT LIST. it is the industry standard, the graphic editing on MIDI edit window is great in DP11 can do stuff fast. You see midi ch, event, controllers, all quarter nots are broken down to 480 ticks. Thus 240 ticks 8th not 120 16th, 360 doted 8th.
Its really nice.

I got a question for some genius out there.
How do you send a "Reset All Controllers" in DP11? it has all notes off but Controller #122 that resets all is where? I have been looking for it. It should be a button know? a hot button so you can reset all your external midi gear controller #7, and Expression #11, and Mod Wheel. I should not have to put it on my 150 track template on every track. Should be able to put in conductor track.

DP11 hates NVIDIA Web Driver Beware. Will not run use Mac driver built in. 
Remember Boot DP11 into "AU" mode then add VST3's that pass. Your set.
Create Macros in DP11 to do stuff fast. Save Macros. At film date use macros, save money and make more!

Kind Regards
B


----------



## 60s Pop Man

GoofyTroop.
What a fascinating story and informative post.
Thank you for sharing it.

Cheers.


----------



## sinkd

GoofyTroop said:


> I have been a DP fan from its inception. When I did Walt Disney TV Series's allot it was the only software you could use. It was developed to midi SMPTE sync. We created a feature called "Markers" during the Goof Troop series. All the 7 -9 composers gave feedback and we perfected markers for hit points, and ability to lock. Then Streamers so you could cue in Orchestra on screen. Truly remarkable tech. Opcode had the best hit point calculator for your click (Tempo track) Opcode allowed us to get best tempo track to make stuff hit on downbeats and do all the calculations. The tempo was presented with choices so you could choose the best tempos and meters to falling music on down beats or quarter notes etc. AMAZING Tech.
> 
> I own Cubase, LogicPro, Studio one, Nuendo, DP all versions.
> 
> I find myself using DP for ALL TV and Film jobs i have done in my life so far (42 years in business) I use Cubase for commercials and Pop songs, rock, Studio sessions. I use Dorico now more for composing without piano and importing from DP to print and correct scores for "Dates" or recording session with both VST and Orchestra. If they keep improving Dorico, and add better midi implementation and easer midi interface, with features like a click track, or "Hit Track Click" and calculate tempos then it will be the top Film/Tv software ever made.
> 
> DP11 is a head of its time again, and needs some stability issues addressed. IT is awesome.
> I cant boot it with VST3 selected, it crashes on launch. OR VST2 selected. So all you people who are getting DP11 First boot when you register it, you choose default format choose "AU" as default. Then when DP11 launches go to "Preferences" Select Plugins, then choose VST3 or vst2 and examine. if it passes it will check the box red for you. do this to all the needed VST3's that have functions you need. Its a work around until next rev.
> 
> DAW is best chosen for what you do.
> Scoring a film or doing episodical TV, then MOTU Digital Performer hands down. When you have a real film or TV gig you have no time, no learning curve and need to focus on composing not drum loops and guitar sounds. DP gets you through your job! Your musical editor will send midi click track with cues, timings and markers. These import right into MOTU DP flawlessly. And you attach each Chunk or Cue to mp4 or video file so you see movie or film you are scoring with audio and streamers while you score with dialog and snd efx. Truly time tested and perfection. It works perfect and you will not get sued or fired because your computer cant sync, or your $270000 orchestra is sitting there while you try to sync to film, and get your hybrid VST orchestra and the real orchestra to sync up so Orchestra can see hits and streamers. I have seen so many go down in flames because they insist on using other DAW's that end up burning up $$$$$$$ because of its missing key features not discovered until "Date" or recording session. The majors $$$$ will not be lost, it will be subtracted from your budget and you will be bankrupt or fired.
> 
> Logic Pro is great for composing and doing finished SONGS or single cues you will be doing as a ghost writer or "One Offs" where a composer knows you and needs a cue or two written for off contract or CASH price. Works great. LogicPRO works perfect for Recording sessions like orchestration, or orchestrating and adding parts on peoples albums, or songs by the major hit artists. or doing live performances on stage with band and midi and VST, recorded tracks audio while live performing. Logic Pro will NEVER crash and great for live on stage and studio sessions. Logic pro is also a great composing tool for hit songs, and composing cues.
> 
> Cuebase is very versatile, it is for some the best hit song composing tool DAW out. It works great for studio sessions and novice DAW people as it has all these awesome harmony checkers, and AI to correct your scores and songs. I love it and use it to come up with ideas and mix songs. I do not use it on film, or TV as during a live session with orchestra, and you need to quickly edit a part, or make changes it is "To many clicks" to do stuff. Yes you can do it but its to time consuming and requires allot of knowledge and experience to use Cubase. It crashed on me the times i used it on dates, not a big deal but takes to long to boot again and sync up. Dont get me wrong for some that live only with one DAW and know Cubase its the best tool for them. I just have not seen it used much in Film/Tv sessions.
> 
> Studio one is great too. Not a fan as it fails to see my massive midi setups which i have in tower Roady cases with 4 MOTU midi express's XT using 4 banks of 8 midi instruments.
> So my racks have 4 Emu E4xt Ultras, Two Roland Integra-7's. Yamaha Montage 88, Kurzweil PC2R, Two Roland Fantom Xr's, Yamaha Tx816, Yamaha Motif-Rack xs, All the emu Proteus lines, Midi Moog, Prophit VS rack, Roland TR808, Korg m1R, 2 Korg Wavestation SR,
> Roland D550, Emu EIIIxpr, Bricasti reverb. List goes on. You get the gist. Allot of gear to produce a play along with live Orchestra on film and TV dates,. Need Sync to house SMPTE,
> a DAW that sees all this stuff. Studio One did not see my stuff and so i only use it with vST stuff and it works great for composing hit songs via macs. Not a fan but some request it so I use it with aspirin.
> 
> Steinberg Dorico is my new favorite to Score Films or TV episodes with no piano or keyboard. IF you know how to compose on paper and old school this is your answer. Dorico makes you better! A better patient person and a orchestrator and composer. It is amazing once you learn the keystrokes to get to stuff fast. IT works awesome with VSL (Vienna Libraries) If you truly know how to compose music and can write music on paper then you are in heaven. Dorico will get you to the date with score, parts transposed, cue sheets and you look like a pro! You will need to buy a huge epson printer (I own one) it prints huge master conducting scores, and parts on film thick paper that is archival ink and will not erode for 150 years, and you can spill coffee on it and it will spill off. Just bring Color Sharpies to date so you can pass them out to players and yourself to make changes.
> Its the goto solution for your next Steven Spielberg film! You will need it and make GOB's $$$$$$ of money by being your own copyist. One job will pay for your $12 k Epson 68" wide printer and the paper and the ink. Everyone at major studios says "WOW: these look great and the players love the bigger photo paper. (You will say "WOW" when you get the $26k for being your own copyist.
> 
> DP11 is your best bet IF you plan on having a career in Film and TV, if you are a song writer it works great too. You will never be unhappy. Its the best software out AND it supports older computers. MOTU is awesome to support older Mac Pro's 4.1 and 5.1 models. Other companies only work with newer Mac
> Pros that cost as much as a home or high end Sports car. Just not doable for 99%.
> 
> I love DP11 interface and the EVENT LIST. it is the industry standard, the graphic editing on MIDI edit window is great in DP11 can do stuff fast. You see midi ch, event, controllers, all quarter nots are broken down to 480 ticks. Thus 240 ticks 8th not 120 16th, 360 doted 8th.
> Its really nice.
> 
> I got a question for some genius out there.
> How do you send a "Reset All Controllers" in DP11? it has all notes off but Controller #122 that resets all is where? I have been looking for it. It should be a button know? a hot button so you can reset all your external midi gear controller #7, and Expression #11, and Mod Wheel. I should not have to put it on my 150 track template on every track. Should be able to put in conductor track.
> 
> DP11 hates NVIDIA Web Driver Beware. Will not run use Mac driver built in.
> Remember Boot DP11 into "AU" mode then add VST3's that pass. Your set.
> Create Macros in DP11 to do stuff fast. Save Macros. At film date use macros, save money and make more!
> 
> Kind Regards
> B


Quite a testimonial! I am also a big fan of DP and have been using it since BD (before digital).


----------



## gzapper

GoofyTroop said:


> I have been a DP fan from its inception. When I did Walt Disney TV Series's allot it was the only software you could use. It was developed to midi SMPTE sync. We created a feature called "Markers" during the Goof Troop series. All the 7 -9 composers gave feedback and we perfected markers for hit points, and ability to lock. Then Streamers so you could cue in Orchestra on screen. Truly remarkable tech. Opcode had the best hit point calculator for your click (Tempo track) Opcode allowed us to get best tempo track to make stuff hit on downbeats and do all the calculations. The tempo was presented with choices so you could choose the best tempos and meters to falling music on down beats or quarter notes etc. AMAZING Tech.
> 
> I own Cubase, LogicPro, Studio one, Nuendo, DP all versions.
> 
> I find myself using DP for ALL TV and Film jobs i have done in my life so far (42 years in business) I use Cubase for commercials and Pop songs, rock, Studio sessions. I use Dorico now more for composing without piano and importing from DP to print and correct scores for "Dates" or recording session with both VST and Orchestra. If they keep improving Dorico, and add better midi implementation and easer midi interface, with features like a click track, or "Hit Track Click" and calculate tempos then it will be the top Film/Tv software ever made.
> 
> DP11 is a head of its time again, and needs some stability issues addressed. IT is awesome.
> I cant boot it with VST3 selected, it crashes on launch. OR VST2 selected. So all you people who are getting DP11 First boot when you register it, you choose default format choose "AU" as default. Then when DP11 launches go to "Preferences" Select Plugins, then choose VST3 or vst2 and examine. if it passes it will check the box red for you. do this to all the needed VST3's that have functions you need. Its a work around until next rev.
> 
> DAW is best chosen for what you do.
> Scoring a film or doing episodical TV, then MOTU Digital Performer hands down. When you have a real film or TV gig you have no time, no learning curve and need to focus on composing not drum loops and guitar sounds. DP gets you through your job! Your musical editor will send midi click track with cues, timings and markers. These import right into MOTU DP flawlessly. And you attach each Chunk or Cue to mp4 or video file so you see movie or film you are scoring with audio and streamers while you score with dialog and snd efx. Truly time tested and perfection. It works perfect and you will not get sued or fired because your computer cant sync, or your $270000 orchestra is sitting there while you try to sync to film, and get your hybrid VST orchestra and the real orchestra to sync up so Orchestra can see hits and streamers. I have seen so many go down in flames because they insist on using other DAW's that end up burning up $$$$$$$ because of its missing key features not discovered until "Date" or recording session. The majors $$$$ will not be lost, it will be subtracted from your budget and you will be bankrupt or fired.
> 
> Logic Pro is great for composing and doing finished SONGS or single cues you will be doing as a ghost writer or "One Offs" where a composer knows you and needs a cue or two written for off contract or CASH price. Works great. LogicPRO works perfect for Recording sessions like orchestration, or orchestrating and adding parts on peoples albums, or songs by the major hit artists. or doing live performances on stage with band and midi and VST, recorded tracks audio while live performing. Logic Pro will NEVER crash and great for live on stage and studio sessions. Logic pro is also a great composing tool for hit songs, and composing cues.
> 
> Cuebase is very versatile, it is for some the best hit song composing tool DAW out. It works great for studio sessions and novice DAW people as it has all these awesome harmony checkers, and AI to correct your scores and songs. I love it and use it to come up with ideas and mix songs. I do not use it on film, or TV as during a live session with orchestra, and you need to quickly edit a part, or make changes it is "To many clicks" to do stuff. Yes you can do it but its to time consuming and requires allot of knowledge and experience to use Cubase. It crashed on me the times i used it on dates, not a big deal but takes to long to boot again and sync up. Dont get me wrong for some that live only with one DAW and know Cubase its the best tool for them. I just have not seen it used much in Film/Tv sessions.
> 
> Studio one is great too. Not a fan as it fails to see my massive midi setups which i have in tower Roady cases with 4 MOTU midi express's XT using 4 banks of 8 midi instruments.
> So my racks have 4 Emu E4xt Ultras, Two Roland Integra-7's. Yamaha Montage 88, Kurzweil PC2R, Two Roland Fantom Xr's, Yamaha Tx816, Yamaha Motif-Rack xs, All the emu Proteus lines, Midi Moog, Prophit VS rack, Roland TR808, Korg m1R, 2 Korg Wavestation SR,
> Roland D550, Emu EIIIxpr, Bricasti reverb. List goes on. You get the gist. Allot of gear to produce a play along with live Orchestra on film and TV dates,. Need Sync to house SMPTE,
> a DAW that sees all this stuff. Studio One did not see my stuff and so i only use it with vST stuff and it works great for composing hit songs via macs. Not a fan but some request it so I use it with aspirin.
> 
> Steinberg Dorico is my new favorite to Score Films or TV episodes with no piano or keyboard. IF you know how to compose on paper and old school this is your answer. Dorico makes you better! A better patient person and a orchestrator and composer. It is amazing once you learn the keystrokes to get to stuff fast. IT works awesome with VSL (Vienna Libraries) If you truly know how to compose music and can write music on paper then you are in heaven. Dorico will get you to the date with score, parts transposed, cue sheets and you look like a pro! You will need to buy a huge epson printer (I own one) it prints huge master conducting scores, and parts on film thick paper that is archival ink and will not erode for 150 years, and you can spill coffee on it and it will spill off. Just bring Color Sharpies to date so you can pass them out to players and yourself to make changes.
> Its the goto solution for your next Steven Spielberg film! You will need it and make GOB's $$$$$$ of money by being your own copyist. One job will pay for your $12 k Epson 68" wide printer and the paper and the ink. Everyone at major studios says "WOW: these look great and the players love the bigger photo paper. (You will say "WOW" when you get the $26k for being your own copyist.
> 
> DP11 is your best bet IF you plan on having a career in Film and TV, if you are a song writer it works great too. You will never be unhappy. Its the best software out AND it supports older computers. MOTU is awesome to support older Mac Pro's 4.1 and 5.1 models. Other companies only work with newer Mac
> Pros that cost as much as a home or high end Sports car. Just not doable for 99%.
> 
> I love DP11 interface and the EVENT LIST. it is the industry standard, the graphic editing on MIDI edit window is great in DP11 can do stuff fast. You see midi ch, event, controllers, all quarter nots are broken down to 480 ticks. Thus 240 ticks 8th not 120 16th, 360 doted 8th.
> Its really nice.
> 
> I got a question for some genius out there.
> How do you send a "Reset All Controllers" in DP11? it has all notes off but Controller #122 that resets all is where? I have been looking for it. It should be a button know? a hot button so you can reset all your external midi gear controller #7, and Expression #11, and Mod Wheel. I should not have to put it on my 150 track template on every track. Should be able to put in conductor track.
> 
> DP11 hates NVIDIA Web Driver Beware. Will not run use Mac driver built in.
> Remember Boot DP11 into "AU" mode then add VST3's that pass. Your set.
> Create Macros in DP11 to do stuff fast. Save Macros. At film date use macros, save money and make more!
> 
> Kind Regards
> B


Nice post, I migrated from Studio Vision to DP 2.54, with a few side tracks to try logic/protools and a few others. I hear you.

I haven't tried this, and will maybe next week, but could you build a console to do this and save it in DP clippings? Then maybe just map it to one button on an external controller for when you need it? Or add a track that fires that console to clippings as well?


----------



## Al Maurice

GoofyTroop said:


> I got a question for some genius out there.
> How do you send a "Reset All Controllers" in DP11? it has all notes off but Controller #122 that resets all is where? I have been looking for it. It should be a button know? a hot button so you can reset all your external midi gear controller #7, and Expression #11, and Mod Wheel. I should not have to put it on my 150 track template on every track. Should be able to put in conductor track.


That's a good question:

Most seem to do this at the front of the track using the event list, where you can specify the controller and its value, so you might be able to send a 122 cc value from there. Otherwise so far I´ve found no such option.


----------



## Toecutter

GoofyTroop said:


> I have been a DP fan from its inception. When I did Walt Disney TV Series's allot it was the only software you could use. It was developed to midi SMPTE sync. We created a feature called "Markers" during the Goof Troop series. All the 7 -9 composers gave feedback and we perfected markers for hit points, and ability to lock. Then Streamers so you could cue in Orchestra on screen. Truly remarkable tech. Opcode had the best hit point calculator for your click (Tempo track) Opcode allowed us to get best tempo track to make stuff hit on downbeats and do all the calculations. The tempo was presented with choices so you could choose the best tempos and meters to falling music on down beats or quarter notes etc. AMAZING Tech.
> 
> I own Cubase, LogicPro, Studio one, Nuendo, DP all versions.
> 
> I find myself using DP for ALL TV and Film jobs i have done in my life so far (42 years in business) I use Cubase for commercials and Pop songs, rock, Studio sessions. I use Dorico now more for composing without piano and importing from DP to print and correct scores for "Dates" or recording session with both VST and Orchestra. If they keep improving Dorico, and add better midi implementation and easer midi interface, with features like a click track, or "Hit Track Click" and calculate tempos then it will be the top Film/Tv software ever made.
> 
> DP11 is a head of its time again, and needs some stability issues addressed. IT is awesome.
> I cant boot it with VST3 selected, it crashes on launch. OR VST2 selected. So all you people who are getting DP11 First boot when you register it, you choose default format choose "AU" as default. Then when DP11 launches go to "Preferences" Select Plugins, then choose VST3 or vst2 and examine. if it passes it will check the box red for you. do this to all the needed VST3's that have functions you need. Its a work around until next rev.
> 
> DAW is best chosen for what you do.
> Scoring a film or doing episodical TV, then MOTU Digital Performer hands down. When you have a real film or TV gig you have no time, no learning curve and need to focus on composing not drum loops and guitar sounds. DP gets you through your job! Your musical editor will send midi click track with cues, timings and markers. These import right into MOTU DP flawlessly. And you attach each Chunk or Cue to mp4 or video file so you see movie or film you are scoring with audio and streamers while you score with dialog and snd efx. Truly time tested and perfection. It works perfect and you will not get sued or fired because your computer cant sync, or your $270000 orchestra is sitting there while you try to sync to film, and get your hybrid VST orchestra and the real orchestra to sync up so Orchestra can see hits and streamers. I have seen so many go down in flames because they insist on using other DAW's that end up burning up $$$$$$$ because of its missing key features not discovered until "Date" or recording session. The majors $$$$ will not be lost, it will be subtracted from your budget and you will be bankrupt or fired.
> 
> Logic Pro is great for composing and doing finished SONGS or single cues you will be doing as a ghost writer or "One Offs" where a composer knows you and needs a cue or two written for off contract or CASH price. Works great. LogicPRO works perfect for Recording sessions like orchestration, or orchestrating and adding parts on peoples albums, or songs by the major hit artists. or doing live performances on stage with band and midi and VST, recorded tracks audio while live performing. Logic Pro will NEVER crash and great for live on stage and studio sessions. Logic pro is also a great composing tool for hit songs, and composing cues.
> 
> Cuebase is very versatile, it is for some the best hit song composing tool DAW out. It works great for studio sessions and novice DAW people as it has all these awesome harmony checkers, and AI to correct your scores and songs. I love it and use it to come up with ideas and mix songs. I do not use it on film, or TV as during a live session with orchestra, and you need to quickly edit a part, or make changes it is "To many clicks" to do stuff. Yes you can do it but its to time consuming and requires allot of knowledge and experience to use Cubase. It crashed on me the times i used it on dates, not a big deal but takes to long to boot again and sync up. Dont get me wrong for some that live only with one DAW and know Cubase its the best tool for them. I just have not seen it used much in Film/Tv sessions.
> 
> Studio one is great too. Not a fan as it fails to see my massive midi setups which i have in tower Roady cases with 4 MOTU midi express's XT using 4 banks of 8 midi instruments.
> So my racks have 4 Emu E4xt Ultras, Two Roland Integra-7's. Yamaha Montage 88, Kurzweil PC2R, Two Roland Fantom Xr's, Yamaha Tx816, Yamaha Motif-Rack xs, All the emu Proteus lines, Midi Moog, Prophit VS rack, Roland TR808, Korg m1R, 2 Korg Wavestation SR,
> Roland D550, Emu EIIIxpr, Bricasti reverb. List goes on. You get the gist. Allot of gear to produce a play along with live Orchestra on film and TV dates,. Need Sync to house SMPTE,
> a DAW that sees all this stuff. Studio One did not see my stuff and so i only use it with vST stuff and it works great for composing hit songs via macs. Not a fan but some request it so I use it with aspirin.
> 
> Steinberg Dorico is my new favorite to Score Films or TV episodes with no piano or keyboard. IF you know how to compose on paper and old school this is your answer. Dorico makes you better! A better patient person and a orchestrator and composer. It is amazing once you learn the keystrokes to get to stuff fast. IT works awesome with VSL (Vienna Libraries) If you truly know how to compose music and can write music on paper then you are in heaven. Dorico will get you to the date with score, parts transposed, cue sheets and you look like a pro! You will need to buy a huge epson printer (I own one) it prints huge master conducting scores, and parts on film thick paper that is archival ink and will not erode for 150 years, and you can spill coffee on it and it will spill off. Just bring Color Sharpies to date so you can pass them out to players and yourself to make changes.
> Its the goto solution for your next Steven Spielberg film! You will need it and make GOB's $$$$$$ of money by being your own copyist. One job will pay for your $12 k Epson 68" wide printer and the paper and the ink. Everyone at major studios says "WOW: these look great and the players love the bigger photo paper. (You will say "WOW" when you get the $26k for being your own copyist.
> 
> DP11 is your best bet IF you plan on having a career in Film and TV, if you are a song writer it works great too. You will never be unhappy. Its the best software out AND it supports older computers. MOTU is awesome to support older Mac Pro's 4.1 and 5.1 models. Other companies only work with newer Mac
> Pros that cost as much as a home or high end Sports car. Just not doable for 99%.
> 
> I love DP11 interface and the EVENT LIST. it is the industry standard, the graphic editing on MIDI edit window is great in DP11 can do stuff fast. You see midi ch, event, controllers, all quarter nots are broken down to 480 ticks. Thus 240 ticks 8th not 120 16th, 360 doted 8th.
> Its really nice.
> 
> I got a question for some genius out there.
> How do you send a "Reset All Controllers" in DP11? it has all notes off but Controller #122 that resets all is where? I have been looking for it. It should be a button know? a hot button so you can reset all your external midi gear controller #7, and Expression #11, and Mod Wheel. I should not have to put it on my 150 track template on every track. Should be able to put in conductor track.
> 
> DP11 hates NVIDIA Web Driver Beware. Will not run use Mac driver built in.
> Remember Boot DP11 into "AU" mode then add VST3's that pass. Your set.
> Create Macros in DP11 to do stuff fast. Save Macros. At film date use macros, save money and make more!
> 
> Kind Regards
> B


Thanks for sharing, that was a great read!  I'm ready to give DP another try when MOTU improves Windows performance and sort all issues, I sent a long report but never heard back.


----------



## stigc56

Well I was also quite excited about DP11, especially with the new VST articulation system. But I haven't managed to find any in depth video about how to use the system. I know literally everything  about building your own maps in Cubase, and fell in love with Soundvariations in S1, but DP is always a little bit "in the dark" about many features, I think. Anybody know if there are any in depth videos about these things?


----------



## mjsalam

stigc56 said:


> Well I was also quite excited about DP11, especially with the new VST articulation system. But I haven't managed to find any in depth video about how to use the system. I know literally everything  about building your own maps in Cubase, and fell in love with Soundvariations in S1, but DP is always a little bit "in the dark" about many features, I think. Anybody know if there are any in depth videos about these things?


----------



## stigc56

mjsalam said:


>



Thanks a lot. Now watch.


----------



## cuttime

stigc56 said:


> Well I was also quite excited about DP11, especially with the new VST articulation system. But I haven't managed to find any in depth video about how to use the system. I know literally everything  about building your own maps in Cubase, and fell in love with Soundvariations in S1, but DP is always a little bit "in the dark" about many features, I think. Anybody know if there are any in depth videos about these things?


And there is this, which I have not gotten to work, that apparently only works with certain VST3s, as far as I can tell:


----------



## Dewdman42

That feature works with plugins that are supported by StudioOne Sound Variations, which there are only a few.


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## stigc56

Well hardly an “in depth video”, I mean how to assign them? How to deal with the big maps - like all the VSL and Spitfire stuff. Can it be automated, can you record the ks after the initially recording? Don`t want to sound spoiled, but it doesn`t present a real world scenario to use a library with 2 art. in the woodwinds.


----------



## Dewdman42

One nice thing about DP's articulation map file format, is that its in JSON format, which is actually very easy to edit in a text editor, so you can copy and paste and do things that might be helpful if you're dealing with really large articulation maps.

DP's articulation map editor can also load Cubase Expression map files! But not all features of expression maps are supported, namely groups, but for most straightforward Expression Maps, you can load them up in DP, tweak as neccessary and be good to go if you already have a lot of Cubase Expression Maps.

It would not be hard to make a small script or program that could convert LogicPro articulation sets into DP articulation JSON files also, but I don't know if or when I would have time to do it...so...


----------



## Dewdman42

I am ecstatic to see Articulation Maps in DP, this addition is what is bringing me back to DP after a very long hiatus. I do think it could still use some refinement. I don't think its particularly any worse then the other DAW's, they could all use some refinement too! DP is at least on par with them as far as I'm concerned.

If you have suggestions for MOTU, make sure to send them to [email protected]

I think they are paying attention to this feature area right now and I hear down the grapevine that they are still taking in ideas and opinions, right now is a good time to make your desires heard.

The easiest and most obvious area it could use some refinement, IMHO, is in the GUI itself..the articulation lane. Its not making effective use of space in my view, its not hard to end up with a long list of articulations and a very very tall articulation lane that you have to constantly scroll through. Cubase and StudioOne share the same issue. I actually don't like the whole articulation lane bar concept that cubase, S1 and DP11 are all embracing now. MOTU and PreSonus just kind of copied Steinberg on this idea...and I think it could be much better using a lot less vertical space.

I'd rather see something like this where 127 different articulations can be shown in a more manageable amount of vertical space:







I do not like that it labels the articulation lane bars with note pitches, I wish they were labeled with the articulation name.

I had trouble selecting multiple events and assigning them to the same articulation, this only seems to be possible when they are multiple events of a chord. Would be an easy fix, I'm not sure why MOTU did that.

I'd like some control over colors and other ways to help identify articulations more easily when using the piano roll and looking at my notes.

Latency offset handling.

Channelizing behavior with _chasing_ and _following_ of expression events across channels where notes are being channelized on a per-articulation basis.

I don't think they will add groups, sadly, but something similar as Cubase groups, but with a much more intuitive way to use them, is really needed by all the DAW's, including DP. There are many situations where that can be used to cut down the vertical size of the articulation lane very substantially.


Anyway, I'm still loving my transition to DP so far. V-Racks and Chunks are just awesome. Track and folder organization is light years ahead of LogicPro. I'm still setting up a large template, which I never even bothered with LogicPro, but feel compelled to do with DP... The hardest part is figuring out which approach of track organization would suit me the best. There are many options.

I'm also making heavy use of Bundles and Midi Device Groups in oder to provide much better labels to all the midi and audio channels being sent/received to VePro. Once its setup I don't have to remember which channel or port per instrument, etc.. I really like this.

I'm also really liking the Track Selector window to quickly change which tracks or mixer channels I want to see in different views...can even save presets of this... Can easily re-arrange the mixer how I want...something unheard of in LogicPro really.


----------



## 60s Pop Man

Dewdman42 said:


> Anyway, I'm still loving my transition to DP so far. V-Racks and Chunks are just awesome. Track and folder organization is light years ahead of LogicPro. I'm still setting up a large template, which I never even bothered with LogicPro, but feel compelled to do with DP... The hardest part is figuring out which approach of track organization would suit me the best. There are many options.
> 
> I'm also making heavy use of Bundles and Midi Device Groups in oder to provide much better labels to all the midi and audio channels being sent/received to VePro. Once its setup I don't have to remember which channel or port per instrument, etc.. I really like this.
> 
> I'm also really liking the Track Selector window to quickly change which tracks or mixer channels I want to see in different views...can even save presets of this... Can easily re-arrange the mixer how I want...something unheard of in LogicPro really.


Then there's the power of temporary groups and automation snapshots to activate the visible automation, short cuts for all visible or selected tracks to make automation changes across many tracks very quickly!

My consolidated window is setup to only show one row in the center. The use of Shift + a letter (T, S, G, Q, M etc.) get's around to full screen editors and the mixer very quickly while avoiding the clutter of two rows.

My window sets are based on the function or task-driven contents of the side bars which are easy to show or hide, as the center is alway one big open area.

DP's guitar pedals and Live Room B and G are the coolest plug-ins for guitar players available among the DAW I have. The MasterWorks plug-in for the most part sound great. I just recently discovered that the MW EQ can generate pink noise to help the ears hear how a Q contour shapes the tone. Very cool!

There's so much that is making sense to me now compared to when DP v4.5 and 5 was my only DAW. Big on that list is the interaction of the beat detection engine and the Conductor track, especially useful when importing legacy mixes with varying tempo with a decent percussion component.

Logic has Smart Tempo. Record without a click and the tempo is automatically generated. This does work very well. But DP can do this as well. With the automatically analyze beats and tempo preference active, I can record without a click, and then with adjust sequence tempo to SB command, the tempo appears in the conductor track.

So at this point, I'm full in with DP11 as my primary DAW.


----------



## stigc56

Dewdman42 said:


> The easiest and most obvious area it could use some refinement, IMHO, is in the GUI itself..the articulation lane. Its not making effective use of space in my view, its not hard to end up with a long list of articulations and a very very tall articulation lane that you have to constantly scroll through. Cubase and StudioOne share the same issue. I actually don't like the whole articulation lane bar concept that cubase, S1 and DP11 are all embracing now. MOTU and PreSonus just kind of copied Steinberg on this idea...and I think it could be much better using a lot less vertical space.


I sure disagree with you that S1 and Cubase is equal in this respect. S1 is so much easier to use in every aspect of the process. Building the map, selecting the map, using the map, they are incomparable, in my opinion. Furthermore there is "the speed of evolution"! S1 literally created a system AND even made an update in a periode of 6 months. In the same time Steinberg did, eh what?

I like DP11 quite a lot, it's deep and capable, but I fear that the concept with separated MIDI / VI tracks are a bit too old fashion to me. Dorico introduced the concept with "the musician" in score writing, certainly a useful feature in my world, making it a effortless to create a score with a musician alternating between a banjo and a viola - (Tom Waits), and this idea could be the core in building a template, unless the whole template way of thinking is "so yesterday"??

Nevertheless, DP11 is a big step forward, but is it enough if you don't have the skills or time to enjoy edit JSON based articulation maps in a texteditor?


----------



## richhickey

Dewdman42 said:


> The easiest and most obvious area it could use some refinement, IMHO, is in the GUI itself..the articulation lane. Its not making effective use of space in my view, its not hard to end up with a long list of articulations and a very very tall articulation lane that you have to constantly scroll through. Cubase and StudioOne share the same issue. I actually don't like the whole articulation lane bar concept that cubase, S1 and DP11 are all embracing now. MOTU and PreSonus just kind of copied Steinberg on this idea...and I think it could be much better using a lot less vertical space.
> 
> 
> I had trouble selecting multiple events and assigning them to the same articulation, this only seems to be possible when they are multiple events of a chord. Would be an easy fix, I'm not sure why MOTU did that.


Yeah, copying Cubase on the 2D articulation lanes UI was a mistake. It doesn't scale to large articulation sets in Cubase, and similarly doesn't in DP 11.

And yes, assigning multiple events (esp. that don't already share an articulation) to the same articulation in the 2D lane UI is absolutely maddening, as if they never actually used the feature. The articulation picker on the Info Bar disappears when multiple notes are selected. And the right click menu has no option for articulations. The only thing that works is the menu - Region|Set Articulation, but it is clunky to have to use a popup dialog and keyboard+mouse every time.


----------



## Dewdman42

@stigc56 I did not mean to say that all three daws are exactly the same they are not. I meant to to say that all three can use refinement generally in some way related to articulation mapping, including S1. This thread, however, is not about S1; i have pointed out some of its issues on other S1 related threads. Daw vs daw “conversations”on the internet are generally not productive and lead to fan club mis-information IMHO.

God help us if the reaper cult joins this thread about DP11 too

Regarding the separated midi tracks I hear you but it’s not as bad as you are making it sound when you start using vracks and also vepro together with dp, then the mid track separation is perhaps more clear and certainly more flexible. In fact you generally end up using this same model when using cubase with vepro, for example.

The only thing I wish is that motu would provide a way to use plugin automation between sequences and vrack instruments

It’s also quite easy in dp to show/hide various tracks types, there are numerous different ways to see only midi tracks or only instrument tracks or any combination you want, and very flexible folder organization.


----------



## Dewdman42

Regarding JSON i was only pointing it out as an alternative for large maps which you seem to feel are difficult to do in dp for some unstated reason. If you are not comfortable or proficient with a JSON or text editor then by all means don’t try it


----------



## mjsalam

Dewdman42 said:


> @stigc56 I did not mean to say that all three daws are exactly the same they are not. I meant to to say that all three can use refinement generally in some way related to articulation mapping, including S1. This thread, however, is not about S1; i have pointed out some of its issues on other S1 related threads. Daw vs daw “conversations”on the internet are generally not productive and lead to fan club mis-information IMHO.
> 
> God help us if the reaper cult joins this thread about DP11 too
> 
> Regarding the separated midi tracks I hear you but it’s not as bad as you are making it sound when you start using vracks and also vepro together with dp, then the mid track separation is perhaps more clear and certainly more flexible. In fact you generally end up using this same model when using cubase with vepro, for example.
> 
> The only thing I wish is that motu would provide a way to use plugin automation between sequences and vrack instruments
> 
> It’s also quite easy in dp to show/hide various tracks types, there are numerous different ways to see only midi tracks or only instrument tracks or any combination you want, and very flexible folder organization.


My struggle with the MIDI track / Instrument track in DP is that I have grown accustomed to (spoiled by) the disabled track template approach in Cubase. I love being able to have as much as I want in the template with a high level of granularity over resource usage. In DP I would have to have a huge number of v-racks (1:1 with midi tracks) in order to leverage them in this way. Unless I have multiple instruments per v-rack in which case I would have to audition them by enabling/disabling using that little arrow in the v-rack mixer. Not very workflow friendly. Of course I could have pairs of midi and respective instrument tracks ...but then I've got double the tracks - which isn't a huge deal but still the auditioning process has more friction. 

I also tried to emulate this in S1 - all the pieces are there it just gets way too slow to be usable at a certain number of tracks.


----------



## Dewdman42

So the problem there is not the fact that DP has midi tracks separated from instrument tracks. the problem there is that DP does not provide a convenient way to enable/disable instrument tracks, as you said, only a little arrow at the bottom of the mixer strip, and I agree, its not a convenient way to enable/disable instruments.

Not an issue for me since I am mainly using VePro and doing the enable/disable inside VePro.

I also don't particularly like the workflow of using a seperate VRack for every instrument, but I guess that is the only way to make it reasonably convenient in DP...but anyway that is still a seperate issue from the whole midi track seperation thing in my view.

Also for the record I personally would like to see DP add instrument tracks that work like Cubase and LogicPro.... as an available option. I don't understand the pushback to not do it from DP fans. But I am just saying, when you start using VRacks and especially if you're using VePro, then it becomes a moot point and the midi tracks are quite fine and simple and preferable. In my case, using V-Racks and chunks was a primary motivator to even use DP at all. I say if you aren't using V-Racks at all....then perhaps one of the other daws will be to your liking better for numerous reasons. One of the biggest advantages of DP is in fact Vracks and chunks...if you aren't using those in DP, then you're not using the complete power of this DAW. When you do start using them, then you will want midi tracks and will care nothing about integrated instrument tracks with midi in the same track.

But as you said, they need to make an easier way to enable/disable instrument tracks, regardless of whether they are in a VRack or not. having to use the mixer pulldown menu is not convenient at all. A very decent point.


----------



## Tren

stigc56 said:


> I sure disagree with you that S1 and Cubase is equal in this respect. S1 is so much easier to use in every aspect of the process. Building the map, selecting the map, using the map, they are incomparable, in my opinion.


They're largely the same. I have both Cubase Pro and Studio One Pro. You're exaggerating.

I also think Cubase's lanes for Articulations are superior, and you also have the option of using Attribute Articulations.

Building, assigning, and using is easy in both of them. These things are unremarkable to discuss, frankly.

The only DAW that has done an appreciable improvement over Cubase (that affects workflow in a positive way) is Cakewalk, with its groups. I like that addition to them.

That being said, I am expecting Cubase to move to Dorico's Expression Maps System in the next version or so.


----------



## Tren

Dewdman42 said:


> So the problem there is not the fact that DP has midi tracks separated from instrument tracks. the problem there is that DP does not provide a convenient way to enable/disable instrument tracks, as you said, only a little arrow at the bottom of the mixer strip, and I agree, its not a convenient way to enable/disable instruments.
> 
> Not an issue for me since I am mainly using VePro and doing the enable/disable inside VePro.
> 
> I also don't particularly like the workflow of using a seperate VRack for every instrument, but I guess that is the only way to make it reasonably convenient in DP...but anyway that is still a seperate issue from the whole midi track seperation thing in my view.
> 
> Also for the record I personally would like to see DP add instrument tracks that work like Cubase and LogicPro.... as an available option. I don't understand the pushback to not do it from DP fans. But I am just saying, when you start using VRacks and especially if you're using VePro, then it becomes a moot point and the midi tracks are quite fine and simple and preferable. In my case, using V-Racks and chunks was a primary motivator to even use DP at all. I say if you aren't using V-Racks at all....then perhaps one of the other daws will be to your liking better for numerous reasons. One of the biggest advantages of DP is in fact Vracks and chunks...if you aren't using those in DP, then you're not using the complete power of this DAW. When you do start using them, then you will want midi tracks and will care nothing about integrated instrument tracks with midi in the same track.
> 
> But as you said, they need to make an easier way to enable/disable instrument tracks, regardless of whether they are in a VRack or not. having to use the mixer pulldown menu is not convenient at all. A very decent point.


I really don't like the way DP handles this. I don't think I could ever get past the way it handles tracks.


----------



## mjsalam

Dewdman42 said:


> So the problem there is not the fact that DP has midi tracks separated from instrument tracks. the problem there is that DP does not provide a convenient way to enable/disable instrument tracks, as you said, only a little arrow at the bottom of the mixer strip, and I agree, its not a convenient way to enable/disable instruments.
> 
> Not an issue for me since I am mainly using VePro and doing the enable/disable inside VePro.
> 
> I also don't particularly like the workflow of using a seperate VRack for every instrument, but I guess that is the only way to make it reasonably convenient in DP...but anyway that is still a seperate issue from the whole midi track seperation thing in my view.
> 
> Also for the record I personally would like to see DP add instrument tracks that work like Cubase and LogicPro.... as an available option. I don't understand the pushback to not do it from DP fans. But I am just saying, when you start using VRacks and especially if you're using VePro, then it becomes a moot point and the midi tracks are quite fine and simple and preferable. In my case, using V-Racks and chunks was a primary motivator to even use DP at all. I say if you aren't using V-Racks at all....then perhaps one of the other daws will be to your liking better for numerous reasons. One of the biggest advantages of DP is in fact Vracks and chunks...if you aren't using those in DP, then you're not using the complete power of this DAW. When you do start using them, then you will want midi tracks and will care nothing about integrated instrument tracks with midi in the same track.
> 
> But as you said, they need to make an easier way to enable/disable instrument tracks, regardless of whether they are in a VRack or not. having to use the mixer pulldown menu is not convenient at all. A very decent point.


Ya I think I was hoping that v-racks could entirely replace VEP but I'm realizing that's not the case. Because I move so much between my stationary setup and my mobile setup I have really grown to like the flexibility that the disable template approach gives. I just have this awful hangup about dongles - primarily because the number of times I've found myself on my mobile rig without one (yes that is entirely on me - I just can't be relied on here 🤦🏻‍♂️).


----------



## Dewdman42

Tren said:


> I really don't like the way DP handles this. I don't think I could ever get past the way it handles tracks.


I'm sorry, but what exactly is wrong with the way it handles tracks?


----------



## Dewdman42

mjsalam said:


> Ya I think I was hoping that v-racks could entirely replace VEP but I'm realizing that's not the case. Because I move so much between my stationary setup and my mobile setup I have really grown to like the flexibility that the disable template approach gives. I just have this awful hangup about dongles - primarily because the number of times I've found myself on my mobile rig without one (yes that is entirely on me - I just can't be relied on here 🤦🏻‍♂️).



I think for some people V-Racks definitely could replace VePro....but not for me either. But you actually want to use both V-Racks AND VePro. By putting your VePro instruments (one per instance) into a V-Rack, or multiple V-Racks if you wish, then you can switch around between sequence chunks at will....they can all point to the same VePro, via the V-Rack. No other DAW can touch this workflow.


----------



## stigc56

Tren said:


> They're largely the same. I have both Cubase Pro and Studio One Pro. You're exaggerating.
> 
> I also think Cubase's lanes for Articulations are superior, and you also have the option of using Attribute Articulations.
> 
> Building, assigning, and using is easy in both of them. These things are unremarkable to discuss, frankly.
> 
> The only DAW that has done an appreciable improvement over Cubase (that affects workflow in a positive way) is Cakewalk, with its groups. I like that addition to them.
> 
> That being said, I am expecting Cubase to move to Dorico's Expression Maps System in the next version or so.


No they are very different ex. in the way you assign the articulation. I use a lot of VSL - the synchron libraries - with very large art. maps. here S1 is especially superior. Alone the automatic build of the map, that is supported by S1 & DP11 in conjunction with Synchron Player and Opus makes it so different. If you use smaller libraries with 5 - 10 - 20 art. then you could argue that there is no difference. In Cubase you have to decide if an articulation should be used as an Attribute or Direction in the map, in S1 you can use both at the same time. 

Regarding groups:




121 articulations nicely presented in groups the S1 list. And then we have the "used (soundvariation)" function:





And then there is way S1 handles the midi thru articulation - that lets you play with the articulation currently selected!

It could be me, but I see it as a major workflow improvement. 

And maybe you could hold back the arrogance a little. Assuming that everybody else is ignorant isn't healthy for a discussion.
And yes, for the record, I own and have been using/are using Cubase, Nuendo, S1, DP11 and LPX, in my everyday work as a Musical Director and composer, and have been doing it for more than 25 years.


----------



## mjsalam

Dewdman42 said:


> I think for some people V-Racks definitely could replace VePro....but not for me either. But you actually want to use both V-Racks AND VePro. By putting your VePro instruments (one per instance) into a V-Rack, or multiple V-Racks if you wish, then you can switch around between sequence chunks at will....they can all point to the same VePro, via the V-Rack. No other DAW can touch this workflow.


Very interesting...trying to wrap my head around this a bit. So the VEP instruments in the V-Rack basically function as a proxy or sorts and you can flip between chunks seamlessly. Very nice. Do you enable instruments in VEP as needed (ie. flip back and forth as you work) or does this really require a system beefy enough to just have all of the instruments in VEP enabled and ready to go?

If only there was a way to enable/disable track in VEP from DP.


----------



## Tren

stigc56 said:


> No they are very different ex. in the way you assign the articulation. I use a lot of VSL - the synchron libraries - with very large art. maps. here S1 is especially superior. Alone the automatic build of the map, that is supported by S1 & DP11 in conjunction with Synchron Player and Opus makes it so different. If you use smaller libraries with 5 - 10 - 20 art. then you could argue that there is no difference. In Cubase you have to decide if an articulation should be used as an Attribute or Direction in the map, in S1 you can use both at the same time.
> 
> Regarding groups:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 121 articulations nicely presented in groups the S1 list. And then we have the "used (soundvariation)" function:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And then there is way S1 handles the midi thru articulation - that lets you play with the articulation currently selected!
> 
> It could be me, but I see it as a major workflow improvement.
> 
> And maybe you could hold back the arrogance a little. Assuming that everybody else is ignorant isn't healthy for a discussion.
> And yes, for the record, I own and have been using/are using Cubase, Nuendo, S1, DP11 and LPX, in my everyday work as a Musical Director and composer, and have been doing it for more than 25 years.


That's really not much different from Cubase, but we can all exaggerate disparities in to worlds of difference.


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## mjsalam

ka00 said:


> You can enable and disable VEP channels from any DAW by using midi CC messages. Disabling will unload the instrument from memory on your server.


Could you help me understand this a bit better. I have tried using the parameter setting in VEP and it works but only for one track. Do I have to explicitly create this mapping for every channel/instrument in VEP? With a larger template won’t you run out of parameters? Anyhow - maybe I’m missing something. AnY help appreciated!


----------



## mjsalam

ka00 said:


> It’s been about a year since I set this up and I don’t have it in front of me. But in VEPro, you can open the automation mapping window and “learn” a midi button for disabling and can also learn the parameter you want disabled. This is way quicker than having to manually scroll through the list of midi ports and channels and CC’s you want to use.
> 
> But I use the same midi parameter for disabling any track. You don’t have to set up one CC to disable one instrument and a different CC to disable another. It’s always the same CC. Because as long as over in your DAW you’ve got the proper instrument track(s) highlighted/armed, when you press your disable button it will send that midi cc message to all the instruments in VEPro that those midi tracks in your DAW control.


Thanks for this - this is how I always imagined it should work but for whatever reason was never able to get it to work as such. Will give it another go and report back!


----------



## stigc56

Tren said:


> That's really not much different from Cubase, but we can all exaggerate disparities in to worlds of difference.


I'm glad, that I'm not the only one who think Cubase needs to improve here. This is the thread from Steinberg Forum: https://forums.steinberg.net/t/expression-map-helpful-additions/104663/3.
Notice how many of the wanted features actually is implemented in S1, and that it's the third most wanted feature, but maybe you didn't know?

And I'm not trying to make a discussion, but we have to be open about our disagreement, and this thread is about the new, and surprising features of DP11, which has led to so much excitement and DP users, existing or future, deserve that we articulate, that the implementation of any kind articulation switching needs to be studied thoroughly before we can "pass the sentence".
In that regards the implementation in DP11 is a first step, and if you want to use it with ex. Timpani patch from VSL Synchron Percussion 1, you need a lot scrolling: 
You tell me if that will improve your workflow!


----------



## Dewdman42

mjsalam said:


> Very interesting...trying to wrap my head around this a bit. So the VEP instruments in the V-Rack basically function as a proxy or sorts and you can flip between chunks seamlessly. Very nice.



If you put the vepro plugin directly in a sequence rather then a vrack, then keep in mind that vepro is designed such that for any given instance, only one vepro plugin instance can connect to it at the same time.

If you’re only using one sequence then it’s a moot point. If you use more then one sequence as chunks, then only one is active at once, but DP keeps plugins enabled even in sequences that are currently inactive, it seems. This means that only one sequence per DP project can use any particular given VePro instance. if you create additional sequences and try to use them, they will not be able to connect to the VePro instance that was already connected to a different sequence chunks (unless you manually disconnect them I guess?).

But anyway, by using vracks like a _proxy_ as you put it, then no vepro connections need to be disturbed at all. The vrack is always active and always connected to vepro. Then whatever seq chunks you are using will have mainly just midi tracks that feed V-Racks, including the ones hosting VePro plugins. it provides the right seamless layer to truly treat VePro like a hardware rack that any of your midi tracks on any of your sequence chunks can send midi to at any time.

Sequence Chunks in DP are, in my opinion, that biggest differentiating feature of DP among a few others, but in my mind, this is the big one that provides a completely different workflow then everything else. Danny Elfman's masterclass touched on this point as to why he uses DP. He is able to create as many little sequence chunks as he wants, not only for putting all cues of a film into one project, or to build up songs from parts, but also just to have scratch pads, still inside the same project. You can go off on to a tangent and experiment with an idea in a scratch pad sequence chunk...and the rest of your project, including all cues of a film, for example if you want, or any other musical bits you feel like having in the project, can all be housed in various sequence chunks so you can switch around very quickly between these to work.

By using V-Racks and/or VePro on top of V-Racks...you can have them all share the same orchestra...and no re-load time either..the orchestra is always up and ready to go and its very painless to switch chunks that work with that shared orch.


----------



## Dewdman42

I haven’t dived in yet to how to best handle enable disable instruments in vepro while never leaving the daw. Some other posts on this sound interesting. I generally just have vepro on another screen of the same machine and just do it directly in vepro. But eventually I will setup automation map in vepro so that I can do that sort of thing via touchpad which is another area i have yet to get into


----------



## Toecutter

ka00 said:


> Yeah, what is up with this? Is there an official explanation? I installed the demo and really want to dig deep into learning materials. There are no Udemy courses, nothing on LinkedIn Learning. I found a handful of webinars on YouTube but it does seem like there’s a huge trove of material that could be released.


Not that I'm aware of  When I was testing DP11 I sent a message about the webinars and was ignored. Gatekeeping is not the way you get people to use your products, just saying.


----------



## Dewdman42

FWIW, my understanding is that not all of the webinars are suitable for reposting due to much informal conversation that took place in many of them...they were long...like 1-2 hours with people rambling on or getting into side discussions, etc. So they all have to be "edited" before they can be shared...and I reckon they just are doing the math and haven't found time to edit them. Its not a grand conspiracy to gatekeep you away form learning about DP.

I missed most of them also and am bummed about it, a lot of people have asked MOTU for them, at this point, they will either get to editing them or they won't. Subscribe to their notification and try to be present for new ones. At least a few of them are there, and they are generally useful, but yes quite long and detailed.

Groove3 has some DP8 and DP10 tutorials that are quite good and still very much applicable to DP11 in most cases. I advise to start there for now, I found them useful.

It is true there are not a lot of resources in books or videos about mastering DP. I guess it comes down to marketshare. When more people are using DP, more videos and books will come out.


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## Dewdman42

I hear ya, so would I. But I also respect MOTU decision to edit the videos before sharing them publicly...as it represents their company. Its completely understandable in my view, as is your and my desire to watch them anyway.


----------



## Al Maurice

As far as the sparseness of videos are concerned, from what I've seen the UI of DP hasn't changed that much between the latest versions. So from my perspective -- those from DP9, which there are quite a lot of as many features we use now were realeased them, are equally applicable.

I found once you get to know the wherewithall for DP, then it's pretty much plain sailing as the UX is very consistent, enabling you to figure out other like-presented features intuitively.


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## 60s Pop Man

Al Maurice said:


> I found once you get to know the wherewithall for DP, then it's pretty much plain sailing as the UX is very consistent, enabling you to figure out other like-presented features intuitively.


That sums up my experience.

The MOTU webinars that are available are like masterclasses with rich insights into how DP works. It's really frustrating that they're sitting on the shelf, no matter what the reason.


----------



## cmillar

Need more help with DP?

Even with DP11, I still refer to my old manual from DP8 if I ever need to figure out some function I haven't used that much or that I need to understand better (...even after 20 years of DP there's so much power that in there that I still haven't used every possible function!)

And MOTU has any upgraded version changes available on their website, and they're written in the style of the manual. So there is lots of information available about DP.

So you could also just download one of the PDF manuals, or buy an old hard-copy manual from DP8 onwards and be able to grasp most of the functions.


----------



## sbarrettmusic

A friend of mine upgraded to DP11 and he has found that the Smart Quantize function no longer works. When he makes a selection of midi and runs Smart Quantize, it does absolutely nothing. Is anyone else seeing that behavior?


----------



## 60s Pop Man

sbarrettmusic said:


> A friend of mine upgraded to DP11 and he has found that the Smart Quantize function no longer works. When he makes a selection of midi and runs Smart Quantize, it does absolutely nothing. Is anyone else seeing that behavior?


I can confirm that Smart Quantize is not working here either.
Tell your friend to submit a MOTU Techlink describing this problem. I just submitted one. The more reports they receive will confirm this as an issue and not some quirk on one individual's computer system.


----------



## 60s Pop Man

MOTU indicates that Smart Quantize has been fixed internally and will be available in the next DP11 update.


----------



## Kevin Fortin

MOTU has just announced that DP 11.01 is ready for download.


----------



## Dewdman42

ding ding ding.... they added articulation latency correction to the 11.01 articulation manager! That will be a big deal!


----------



## Dewdman42

except 11.01 crashes on start for me....so.....


----------



## lucor

Dewdman42 said:


> ding ding ding.... they added articulation latency correction to the 11.01 articulation manager! That will be a big deal!


Oooh, that would indeed be a game changer for keyswitching. Hopefully this will motivate Presonus to add the same thing to Sound Variations.


----------



## 60s Pop Man

Smart Quantize is now working.

VST3 versions of Kontakt 6.x, HALion 6, Groove Agent 5 continue to fail plug-in scanning even when running in Rosetta.

[Edit - can enter custom names when the instrument is in a MIDI Device Group] Drum editor - still can't enter custom names.

So, a mixed bag for me.


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## Dewdman42

You should be able to edit drum names but use a midi device group or something like that


----------



## AEF

First go around--crash. 11.00 was flawless for me, so I'll have to investigate why.


----------



## dts_marin

The articulation delay feature is extremely promising but at the same time rushed.


200ms limit which is too low for some libraries. You can stack multiple delays but I don't know if this breaks anything else and deviates from intended functionality/stability of the feature.
One would expect that only the attacks would be delayed positively/negatively but that isn't the case. This causes a lot of issues during playback and recording. I don't think this is a limitation of MIDI because the extend note option works but it is doing the opposite. MOTU could fix this issue by tweaking the extend note option to be in milliseconds (negative or positive) instead of percentage but they didn't listen to my request. 

Btw negative delays also appear to break continuous data overdub. And sometimes Event Chasing doesn't work correctly.


That said, kudos to MOTU! Now CSS is finally more manageable in DP.


----------



## 60s Pop Man

Dewdman42 said:


> You should be able to edit drum names but use a midi device group or something like that


Yes, that works. There was a time notes could be named and saved in the Drum Editor without the instrument being in a the MIDI Device Group. 

Custom note names in the Drum Editor are not saved, they should be, but they're not.


----------



## Dewdman42

dts_marin said:


> The articulation delay feature is extremely promising but at the same time rushed.
> 
> 
> 200ms limit which is too low for some libraries. You can stack multiple delays but I don't know if this breaks anything else and deviates from intended functionality/stability of the feature.
> One would expect that only the attacks would be delayed positively/negatively but that isn't the case. This causes a lot of issues during playback and recording. I don't think this is a limitation of MIDI because the extend note option works but it is doing the opposite. MOTU could fix this issue by tweaking the extend note option to be in milliseconds (negative or positive) instead of percentage but they didn't listen to my request.
> 
> Btw negative delays also appear to break continuous data overdub. And sometimes Event Chasing doesn't work correctly.



Its unfortunate they didn't put more thought into it or actually talk to some of us. make sure to submit reports to [email protected]. When I get a chance to test it out I will also.

Some of us have put a lot of thought into this issue and it seems like they just thought they could throw in an easy offset to make everyone happy, but its going to need more attention to really get it "right". I guess at least what they did is is not much different then if you had each articulation on its own track and using track offset. It would behave about the same way.

But I think they didn't realize that for this to really work right for this purpose, it needs to only offset NoteOn events, and leave all other midi events on their normally scheduled time...EXCEPT for the ones that are keyswitches..which need to happen before their intended NoteOns..


----------



## Al Maurice

When you'll hardly switching articulations one track offset works well. 

In any case having the ability to set the delay on midi 'note on's is handy. I find quite often different articulations in libraries have varying levels of latency, which makes it difficult to handle cohesive lines with just a single track. 

As a first step, I think we should be thankful that some kind of delay is possible and accept that it's now there. Motu seems to be quite forward looking too, demonstrated by their clips/region feature and now support for libraries which use sound variation, and now articulation offsets.


----------



## machinesworking

I've used DP on an off since I was young, Performer in the 80's as a teenager a bit even. DP in the mid 90's. I'm more of a rock, electronic music writer but I've always gravitated back to DP. 

Odd way of putting it but people often talk of feature creep etc. as a bad thing but to me I want my main DAW to do pretty much everything, DP is hitting all the marks at this point. 

I went off on a search for MPE a couple years ago because DP and my other DAW at the time Live both didn't natively support it, extensive time in Reaper, Bitwig, and bought a copy of Logic again (used it from v4 to 8), but I'm back in DP for the most part. I can't get over Logic's MIDI input limitations, and Reaper is too much like using Excel. 

Anyway good to find a DP friendly thread here. A lot of people seem put off by it, and I kinda get it, it's all about templates, and coming up with a workflow that you design, not as much conforming to DP's idea on how you will work with it. This means you can get pretty lost right away if you're not careful.


----------



## 60s Pop Man

machinesworking said:


> Odd way of putting it but people often talk of feature creep etc. as a bad thing but to me I want my main DAW to do pretty much everything, DP is hitting all the marks at this point.


There's feature creep and then there's essential features for a modern workflow with minimal 3rd party add-ons$.

So yes, definitely, DP11 is hitting mark where I can use it a my primary DAW.

Cheers.


----------



## Dewdman42

Oh there's still room for DP to grow. Numerous things that could be reworked and refined, if nothing else. I don't particularly think it needs a lot of "feature creep" per say, but then again...I thought I could live without the CLIPS feature until I saw a MOTU video about it and suddenly I'm like hey I should try to use that more...

what comes next? I have no idea. But the DAW makers will think of something, else they won't have a way to generate upgrade revenue. 

MOTU could easily do things like:


add more and better software instruments bundled with it
Improved Patch library facility (similar as LogicPro's, for example)
Modern shortcut work flows that rival StudioOne
Iteratively improve articulation management, DP11 was a good start.
Update the score editor massively
Improve things like the drum editor so that you can edit the drum names without jumping through hoops
Improve Midi Device Groups so that you can organize them better as bundles or save in folder tree, etc.. things like that, able to name midi ports better without having to use MDG even.
make it possible to automate plugin parameters that are hosted on V-Racks
Create a mixer channel UI like Cubase has to make it faster and easier to deal with typical channel strip EQ, compression, gating, etc..
Instrument tracks able to have midi events directly (gasp)
AUmfx and VST midi plugin hosting directly in instrument tracks (similar as LogicPro)
chord track type functionality
More thorough use of next gen pre gen for all plugins, including for example VePro
Advanced MIDI editing along the lines of Cubase and LogicPro Transformers
Scripting plugin
etc..


----------



## kgdrum

DP needs a control app similar to Logic


----------



## Dewdman42

Well they had one and didn't keep it up to date and now you can't run it on latest iOS. I doubt that they would do that again, but what would be good is if they did something web based like all of their hardware products...then you could use it anywhere on any device... 

At a minimum it would be nice to have touch pad control fo transport and some basic mixer control in order to sit at a midi controller across the room and control DP remotely from there. I agree. In the meantime, this issue is not really a show stopper because of third party solutions and DP already has a very robust OSC api....


----------



## kgdrum

Dewdman42 said:


> Well they had one and didn't keep it up to date and now you can't run it on latest iOS. I doubt that they would do that again, but what would be good is if they did something web based like all of their hardware products...then you could use it anywhere on any device...
> 
> At a minimum it would be nice to have touch pad control fo transport and some basic mixer control in order to sit at a midi controller across the room and control DP remotely from there. I agree. In the meantime, this issue is not really a show stopper because of third party solutions and DP already has a very robust OSC api....


yeah it would enhance the DP workflow enormously,also having the DP manual accessible via the app would be sweet!


----------



## machinesworking

Funny how this works, everyone's list of improvements is always different.
Mine are mostly about UX issues.

1. Clips are half done. 

Like Logic there's no clip for the Conductor track. Bitwig and Live both allow each horizontal session clip to dictate tempo, this is super useful for obvious reasons. 

Clips are always input quantized in DP, in other DAWs you can choose to fire clips without quantization. 

Clips are not integrated into DPs edit or selection system, so no editing the MIDI or audio in a clip in the Drum, Graphic, Score, Event editors. DP Doesn't see Clips at all until unpacked. There is the basic Clip Editor window and that's it. IMO it's particularly awkward that the Drum editor doesn't see Clips. 

Selection preferences for Clip Tracks don't exist, so if you have a MIDI track and a MIDI Clip track, selecting Show Only / Soundbites or Notes does not show MIDI or Audio Clip Tracks, and there is no selection to show tracks with Clips in them, so effectively you can't 'show all tracks with data written to them' as a selection choice if you use Clips. 

2. Track folders can't be folded, unfolded by key command; you should be able to set up a key command to fold and to unfold all folders. There are few other things that could use a key command.

3. Track Selection in DP is great, super quick etc. but the way it translates between the Sequence, Tracks and Mixer has never made sense to me. There should be some way have whatever you selected in the Tracks window 'stick' and show only those tracks in the Mixer and Sequence windows. I like that there is the ability to save selections, but there should be some simple rules that selection follows. 

4. In every set up I've had turning on and off the Memory Cycle when the sequence is running causes a solid audio drop out. I get instantiating a plug in while the sequence is running could do this, but Memory Cycle has no such excuse, no other DAW I've used does this. 

5. Dewdman mentioned the Content Browser, it's another IMO less than half finished new feature. I find it's great for Clippings and thats about it, Every other section is better accessed from the Finder in Mac OS, and I would bet Explorer in Windows. Audio files auditioned there are selection, then wait, there's no visual feedback anything is happening, there's no way to adjust the volume, the freaking slider is in DP's Preferences... They don't play at the sequence tempo, they don't play at all when the sequence is running. To be fair, it's fantastic for Clippings, a much better way to access and organize Clippings than the annoying tiny window that can't be pinned to float. 

6. GUI wise, tons of improvements. but the Clips window is a completely different size than the rest of DP. If enlarge the GUI then the Clips window becomes ridiculously huge. 

7, In the Tracks window there should be a way to open and close the Track List panel down to just the track name with a key Command. 

8. There should be a DP preferences package you could make with all of your Commands, various settings, MOTU plug in presets, all of it, in a single importable package. Something you can import into your next computer easily. 

9. As has been mentioned the iOS app going away is a sin, they had the best one at the time it came out, but it just died. Logic is a prime example of what can be done with an iPad app and a DAW. I suspect the guy who coded it moved on to another company, but no real excuse, their apps for their MOTU hardware are all solid and there's obviously the talent there to do something. 

10. resizable GUIs for their plug ins, this one kills me. MPE and the MX4 are a great pair. Didn't care for the MX4 until I messed with it and an MPE controller, it sounds great, but the GUI is tiny on my old 1920x1080 screen, can't imagine what it would look like on a 4k! 

Anyway, as you can see I'm not of the impression that DP is finished, but mostly UX improvements to what is there is where I'm wishing for more.


----------



## Dewdman42

kgdrum said:


> DP needs a control app similar to Logic


one thing we could probably get going in the not too distant future is to make a DP control app based on Open Stage Control. It would not be too difficult to at least make a simple one with transport control. If the DP community has the will, it could be done.


----------



## kgdrum

Dewdman42 said:


> one thing we could probably get going in the not too distant future is to make a DP control app based on Open Stage Control. It would not be too difficult to at least make a simple one with transport control. If the DP community has the will, it could be done.


That’s a good point but you don’t want me within 10 feet of the development team,lol 😂


----------



## Dewdman42

Maybe I'll start trying to hobble together a few simple things to get things started. I suspect this will lead to ever increasing desires and time spent making to more and more capable, which I simply will not have time to do all at once...but I could at least figure out transport control and a couple things like that.


----------



## kgdrum

@Dewdman42 
Does embedding the manual make something like this more difficult from a technological perspective or do you think something like that would need MOTU’s input and blessing?


----------



## Dewdman42

I don't particularly think embedding the manual is the right approach. You can simply copy the PDF to your touchpad and view it that way.


----------



## kgdrum

of course that never occurred to me,lol 🤪


----------



## machinesworking

Dewdman42 said:


> one thing we could probably get going in the not too distant future is to make a DP control app based on Open Stage Control. It would not be too difficult to at least make a simple one with transport control. If the DP community has the will, it could be done.


 My solution was to pick up a bluetooth number pad for remote control of DP. there's a cheap sticky Commands set you can get which lets you know what each key address's in DP. 





__





Wireless Aluminum Numeric Keypad For Apple Computers


Wireless numeric keypad works with any Bluetooth-enabled Mac or iDevice. 28-key number pad for apple computers w/ ergonomic tilt and firm desktop grip.




eshop.macsales.com





I got the Microsoft one at a used computer store here for peanuts, but I probably will end up getting this one, because the MS one doesn't have a clear button, which is default tied to the Metronome, and the OWC one here has additional controls. 









Motu Digital Performer keyboard sticker


Motu Digital Performer keyboard sticker




www.4keyboard.com


----------



## kgdrum

machinesworking said:


> My solution was to pick up a bluetooth number pad for remote control of DP. there's a cheap sticky Commands set you can get which lets you know what each key address's in DP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wireless Aluminum Numeric Keypad For Apple Computers
> 
> 
> Wireless numeric keypad works with any Bluetooth-enabled Mac or iDevice. 28-key number pad for apple computers w/ ergonomic tilt and firm desktop grip.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eshop.macsales.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I got the Microsoft one at a used computer store here for peanuts, but I probably will end up getting this one, because the MS one doesn't have a clear button, which is default tied to the Metronome, and the OWC one here has additional controls.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Motu Digital Performer keyboard sticker
> 
> 
> Motu Digital Performer keyboard sticker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.4keyboard.com


Interesting idea & approach,I like this.
btw nice to see you here @VI-C 👍


----------



## cuttime

kgdrum said:


> Interesting idea & approach,I like this.
> btw nice to see you here @VI-C 👍


This is a nice approach, it requires a desktop application that works in tandem:








‎Remote NumPad Keyboard


‎Turn your iPhone or iPad into a powerful and elegant keyboard extension with numbers and navigation pads. Create custom keypads for your professional tools to boost productivity. Move freely and control your computer from across the room. No line of sight is required - the app uses WiFi to...



apps.apple.com


----------



## kgdrum

@cuttime 
This is all very interesting,I really like having a remote app especially when I’m recording tracks with eDrums.
Logic’s remote app totally blows me away,it makes recording so much easier.


----------



## machinesworking

Going back to TouchOsc, it should be possible to set up the Number Pads Key commands in TouchOsc with the actual Commands that DP uses, I'm OK with a physical bluetooth Number Pad because it frees up the iphone or ipad to use a Mackie Control capable iOS app for faders etc. I have the Raven 27" here so faders aren't why I want remote iOS access, that would be record, metronome, rewind, play etc. There's also MetaPad if all you need is Commands.


----------



## Al Maurice

The other option is to use TouchDAW it's available on Android, not sure about iOS, and it streams midi over midiRTP and Apple's Bonjour service. Found it works quite well for controlling the transport (even with SMPTE), has basic mixer functionality with banking support on DP.


----------



## coolbass

AC-X Mini and Daw Control work in iOS 14.


----------



## Dewdman42

richhickey said:


> And yes, assigning multiple events (esp. that don't already share an articulation) to the same articulation in the 2D lane UI is absolutely maddening, as if they never actually used the feature.



I just noticed that the DP 11.01 update fixed this issue...now you can do it:


----------



## mscp

haha. Downloaded DP 11's demo and it took 1 minute for it to crash on Win. Nice!


----------



## machinesworking

mscp said:


> haha. Downloaded DP 11's demo and it took 1 minute for it to crash on Win. Nice!


It's probably incompatibility between VST, VST3's and DP. At least on Mac VST3 is a mixed bag in general but especially in DP. VST3 plug ins occasionally crash in Reaper and Bitwig on Mac here.


----------



## Al Maurice

There are options to turn off VSTs when the program 1st loads, or to specify for VST2 or VST3 to the be primary choice. Also DP has an ability to create plugin sets, so I suggest investigating those options as it helped for me.


----------



## machinesworking

Al Maurice said:


> There are options to turn off VSTs when the program 1st loads, or to specify for VST2 or VST3 to the be primary choice. Also DP has an ability to create plugin sets, so I suggest investigating those options as it helped for me.


 Yeah like I mentioned, I don't know about you guys on Windows but on Mac VST3 is the most often to fail evaluation format. Definitely seems like a good idea to start on VST 2 as primary, and replace with VST3 on a per plug in basis. VST3 IK Multimedia TR5 Suite plug in crashes DP11 on Mac OS hard.


----------



## dts_marin

I still don't get why the reshape tool needs time to render.... I haven't see other DAWs take so long to draw automation. Ahh MOTU... They need to optimise the hell out of this tool. Very cumbersome to use. End of today's rant. Back to reshaping now...


----------



## machinesworking

dts_marin said:


> I still don't get why the reshape tool needs time to render.... I haven't see other DAWs take so long to draw automation. Ahh MOTU... They need to optimise the hell out of this tool. Very cumbersome to use. End of today's rant. Back to reshaping now...


 How long are you talking? I've never really noticed a big gap? Pretty much every DAW on my system here GUI wise isn't as "snappy" as Logic though if that's the comparison.


----------



## dts_marin

machinesworking said:


> How long are you talking? I've never really noticed a big gap? Pretty much every DAW on my system here GUI wise isn't as "snappy" as Logic though if that's the comparison.


Well in other DAWs you can pencil in automation during playback. Try that in DP on a hefty project. The whole software freezes even on a very fast machine with 10-15% realtime CPU. Also during playback try hovering the pencil or reshape tool in the Sequence Editor you will notice a frame drop/lagginess.


----------



## machinesworking

dts_marin said:


> Well in other DAWs you can pencil in automation during playback. Try that in DP on a hefty project. The whole software freezes even on a very fast machine with 10-15% realtime CPU. Also during playback try hovering the pencil or reshape tool in the Sequence Editor you will notice a frame drop/lagginess.


 OK yeah that's another issue, I've mixed results there. I went on a search for an MPE DAW a couple years ago when both DP and Live which were my main DAWs at the time did not natively support MPE. Live and Bitwig both of course handle this type of drawing or doing anything really with the timeline running really well, but it comes at a CPU hit, neither can handle the track counts that Reaper, DP, and Logic can. Reaper more or less beats out Logic and DP in terms of what you're saying, but it's random, sometimes a big project will kill Reaper entirely, and anyone using Logic knows about overload messages when doing what you describe. 

I'm not a fan of the way DP handles it, but I haven't personally run into many solutions that are great. To be fair though DP is more touchy than it should be in terms of messing with things while the sequence is running, the fact it consistently glitches turning on and off Memory Cycle is circa 2000 level code.


----------



## Trensharo

Dewdman42 said:


> I don't particularly think embedding the manual is the right approach. You can simply copy the PDF to your touchpad and view it that way.


A PDF isn't very usable. 

They need context sensitive help neither using native help files (i.e. CHM on Windows) or a viewer similar to what is used by software like Studio One or the Affinity software applications. 

At the very least, link to web-based help pages (Cubase, Cakewalk, and others).

Lack of context sensitive help in software this vast is a bad thing. 

Having to dig through a PDF file for everything (well, two large PDFs) is not very efficient.


----------



## Trensharo

Dewdman42 said:


> Oh there's still room for DP to grow. Numerous things that could be reworked and refined, if nothing else. I don't particularly think it needs a lot of "feature creep" per say, but then again...I thought I could live without the CLIPS feature until I saw a MOTU video about it and suddenly I'm like hey I should try to use that more...
> 
> what comes next? I have no idea. But the DAW makers will think of something, else they won't have a way to generate upgrade revenue.
> 
> MOTU could easily do things like:
> 
> 
> add more and better software instruments bundled with it


I don't agree with this. There are far higher priorities for a DAW in this day and age. The only thing they probably should add is a drum sampler - though most people producing that type of music are likely to invest in Native Instruments. So, even that is something that can waste development resources when juxtaposed against the target user base.

The virtual instrument market is huge, now, and prices are lower than ever. They will end up with stuff that most people never use, since they will have (or soon acquire) better.

I don't think feature creep is a thing unless the developers have marketed the software on being minimalistic. Feature bloat is never really a problem. How those features are organized is usually what people have issue with.

In many cases, the software ends up either over-modularized (Cakewalk/SONAR, MPC 2) or cluttered (Samplitude Pro X, REAPER), which are both problematic in terms of feature discoverability, providing distractions, or delivering an efficient workflow.

It is VERY hard to find a balance with software that has a large feature set. I don't think Any DAW has really cracked that code. People just pick the least annoying option for them (or what they're required to use, and get used/acclimate to it).

If they have a sale over black Friday I may pick up a copy of DP on crossgrade. I can't justify $400 for it, though, especially if the VST3 support is buggy. I already have a few plugins/VIs that are VST3 only - and I use them a lot.

It does seem like it has everything you'd need for Film work, composition and production, though.

And I like that it has a consistent lite theme. I am becoming exasperated with all these dark software applications. I don't have time to do developers' work for them trying to scrounge together a better theme.


----------



## 60s Pop Man

Trensharo said:


> The only thing they probably should add is a drum sampler


From my perspective MOTU needs to add drum and percussion notation to QS and refresh the graphics in the Notation Editor to be on par with QS. 

Included instruments are nice to have as in LPX but I have many other options so that's not a critical need for me.


----------



## Dewdman42

Trensharo said:


> A PDF isn't very usable.
> 
> They need context sensitive help neither using native help files (i.e. CHM on Windows) or a viewer similar to what is used by software like Studio One or the Affinity software applications.



My comment was not about whether pdf is the right solution it was with regards to how to see the current user manual from a remote touch device. The current manual is in pdf form.

I agree with you that this is another area where it could be improved, better context sensitive help, particularly for new users. 

However I think this is unlikely to be changed much in the foreseeable future. Motu has arguably the best and most detailed user manual of any of the big daws. It used to ship with the product as a very thick user manual that covers every detail. Decades of work have gone into that manual. I wish the other daws would add a more detailed and thorough user manual that is on par with DP’s. The others are typically missing many details that have to answered by searching user forums for answers.

Now if they could take their most likely frame maker sources and build a context sensitive help system? Maybe and it would be welcome perhaps but all I’m saying is that their big thick and detailed user manual in pdf form is very welcome to me. You can search pdf files too by the way. 

Chm files are not how current help systems are handled by the way. Everything is web based now, but I am sure that there would be a very big effort involved to reasonably translate all the deep info contained in DP’s current user manual from its current form to a context sensitive help system and particularly if you expect to retain the same level of depth and detail that is in DP’s current manual that was authored over decades of effort.


----------



## Al Maurice

DP does have a web based help of sorts, but it's very basic at the moment and just covers the rudimentary features -- quite similar to Studio One's offering which leaves little to be desired.

Like others here, I prefer to have access to a detailed manual or reference guide, I find it helps to do a deep dive into any particular functionality where necessary.

I'm not a fan of most of the help systems, such as Steinberg's offerings -- they tend to require lots of browsing just to get access to information which could better be organised on a single web page with modern reponsive UX design: leaving me no further enlightened that when I started my search ...


----------



## Tren

Dewdman42 said:


> My comment was not about whether pdf is the right solution it was with regards to how to see the current user manual from a remote touch device. The current manual is in pdf form.
> 
> I agree with you that this is another area where it could be improved, better context sensitive help, particularly for new users.
> 
> However I think this is unlikely to be changed much in the foreseeable future. Motu has arguably the best and most detailed user manual of any of the big daws. It used to ship with the product as a very thick user manual that covers every detail. Decades of work have gone into that manual. I wish the other daws would add a more detailed and thorough user manual that is on par with DP’s. The others are typically missing many details that have to answered by searching user forums for answers.
> 
> Now if they could take their most likely frame maker sources and build a context sensitive help system? Maybe and it would be welcome perhaps but all I’m saying is that their big thick and detailed user manual in pdf form is very welcome to me. You can search pdf files too by the way.
> 
> Chm files are not how current help systems are handled by the way. Everything is web based now, but I am sure that there would be a very big effort involved to reasonably translate all the deep info contained in DP’s current user manual from its current form to a context sensitive help system and particularly if you expect to retain the same level of depth and detail that is in DP’s current manual that was authored over decades of effort.


Multiple software applications I own still ship offline context sensitive help - either in the form of CHM, or using their own Help Viewers for the application. This includes both macOS and Windows applications.

Studio One has Offline Help, and it's own Help Viewer. Logic Pro and GarageBand have Offline Help.

Logic, Cubase, and other DAWs all have really good documentation. I am not saying the quality of the PDF Documentation is bad, but when you're on your computer using the software and you need to know how to do something; pressing F1 and then searching for that function is a far superior option.

Otherwise, your entire use of the product is heavily throttled - no one wants to dela with that, especially when they have another DAW they can use more efficiently or productively.

Lots of products - back in the day - shipped great written user manuals. That was kind of the norm.

I don't expect a prouct like DP, which ported super late to the Windows OS - to use CHM documentation on that platform. That was just an example, not an expectation. As I stated (in that same sentence), they could use their own help viewer and that would be 100% fine. CHM is deprecated, anyways


----------



## Tren

Al Maurice said:


> DP does have a web based help of sorts, but it's very basic at the moment and just covers the rudimentary features -- quite similar to Studio One's offering which leaves little to be desired.
> 
> Like others here, I prefer to have access to a detailed manual or reference guide, I find it helps to do a deep dive into any particular functionality where necessary.
> 
> I'm not a fan of most of the help systems, such as Steinberg's offerings -- they tend to require lots of browsing just to get access to information which could better be organised on a single web page with modern reponsive UX design: leaving me no further enlightened that when I started my search ...


The full Studio One 5 Pro documentation is available offline in their help viewer. It's context-sensitive and very well illustrated and hyperlinked.

Having a context-sensitive help system in the software is not mutually exclusive with well-written documentation. Cubase, Cakewalk, Studio One, etc. all deliver both.

I don't really care how good the PDF documentation is. It's a net loss to me if I have to literally stop doing what I'm doing to open a PDF, search it (ugh...) and find what I'm looking for - instead of pressing F1 and just having the help system bring me to the place where I want to be (much faster).

Good Reference Documentation has its place, but it is not a replacement for an application help system.

There's a reason why - even back in the 80s and 90s - when software shipped with several huge books worth of Physical Reference Manuals - they still had decent help systems in the application.

Literally nothing has changed since then, other than the latter disappearing for arbitrary reasons (in many cases).


----------



## Dewdman42

Maybe DP isn’t for you then


----------



## Tren

Dewdman42 said:


> Maybe DP isn’t for you then


Cheeky non-response. Off to that place you go.


----------



## Dewdman42

Tren said:


> Otherwise, your entire use of the product is heavily throttled - no one wants to dela with that, especially when they have another DAW they can use more efficiently or productively.



I think you mean to say “learn” more productively. I very rarely need to actually consult DP’s help or manual and this little to no impact on using DP productively.


----------



## Dewdman42

BTW DP11 does include help in addition to several PDF manuals....


----------



## cuttime

DP 11.02 up. Note Rewire support removed.

Enhancements introduced in version 11.02

Enhancements and optimizations
• Added an MCU "single fader" plugin. Useful for iCON Platform Nano, Presonus Faderport, and any other single-channel MCU control surface.

Fixes
• Added an explanatory message when new users are asked to grant DP permission to access the microphone (audio inputs).
• Console 1 (VST3): Bound the values coming from the control surface to avoid wrap-around.
• Disabled invalid score arrangement commands in the QS contextual menu when the mini-menu disables them.
• Fixed a bug causing POLAR text labels to collide on Windows.
• Fixed a bug causing notes to be selectable by invisible velocity events in the CC editor while in line mode.
• Fixed a bug where notes can get selected via articulations in the midi continuous data pane even if no articulation map is selected for the track.
• Fixed a bug where retrospective midi record would not work with articulation maps.
• Fixed a bug with scene indexing on the Akai APC family of controllers causing the scene launch buttons not to scroll when the grid is moved.
• Fixed a graphical glitch when switching custom console pages.
• Fixed updating of newly recorded automation types when moving the counter after a record pass.
• Improved chasing of per note events.
• Improved the Eucon open/close plugin behavior.
• Removed ReWire support. ReWire has reached end-of-life and can no longer be supported reliably.


----------



## machinesworking

As far as context sensitive help docs are concerned, I rarely have a problem it helps with, as a long time user it's always difficult issues I'm dealing with, nothing a context sensitive Help will actually fix. I've been years away from Logic, but the same applies there, I generally have to google most of the questions I have, even with Logic's extensive in DAW help.


----------



## dts_marin

I really do think these smaller & more frequent updates are a lot better for DP at its current state. Until most of the nasty bugs are fixed they need to be active and move quickly. Let's hope this trend continues. No need to approach Reaper levels of frequency but recently Studio One is a good example of a regularly updated DAW with a balance of big new features and minor optimizations.


----------



## Trensharo

machinesworking said:


> As far as context sensitive help docs are concerned, I rarely have a problem it helps with, as a long time user it's always difficult issues I'm dealing with, nothing a context sensitive Help will actually fix. I've been years away from Logic, but the same applies there, I generally have to google most of the questions I have, even with Logic's extensive in DAW help.


Using a DAW is like riding a bike, outside of a fundamental redesign of the software, you don't unlearn everything simply because you took a few years off.

I haven't ridden a bike in over two decades, yet I know can hop on one and off I go. Just cause it's been a while doesn't mean I'll need Google to tell me how to pop the chain back on when it pops off.

The reason why you only encounter that situation is because you're already familiar with the software, its workflow and its nomenclature.

The documentation issue affects new users disproportionately more than those with prior, long term exposure to the software. You retain information from previous use of the software. We (I and people like myself) are coming to it with no prior exposure, in addition to workflows and nomenclature carried over from competing software.

Context sensitive help isn't just for solving problems. It's a more efficient way of learning the software and acclimating nomenclature that is different from other similar applications.

And no, I am not going to read the DP Manual like Anna Karenina.

At this price point, a functional context help system is a fairly basic expectation. That being said, I don't think my initial post re: it was so inflammatory that the worthless quip from that blocked poster upthread was necessary 😉


----------



## Kevin Fortin

Trensharo said:


> Using a DAW is like riding a bike, outside of a fundamental redesign of the software, you don't unlearn everything simply because you took a few years off.
> 
> I haven't ridden a bike in over two decades, yet I know can hop on one and off I go. Just cause it's been a while doesn't mean I'll need Google to tell me how to pop the chain back on when it pops off.
> 
> The reason why you only encounter that situation is because you're already familiar with the software, its workflow and its nomenclature.
> 
> The documentation issue affects new users disproportionately more than those with prior, long term exposure to the software. You retain information from previous use of the software. We (I and people like myself) are coming to it with no prior exposure, in addition to workflows and nomenclature carried over from competing software.
> 
> Context sensitive help isn't just for solving problems. It's a more efficient way of learning the software and acclimating nomenclature that is different from other similar applications.
> 
> And no, I am not going to read the DP Manual like Anna Karenina.


It looks like you're willing to write, but not willing to read. Is that right?


----------



## Trensharo

I read. Post disregards the situation im referring to. No one is saying long time users need help. If they're that fluent with the software, go them. Did you read my response? It kind of answers your question...

You could say the same about the post responding to me, BTW. 

Whats your point?


Kevin Fortin said:


> It looks like you're willing to write, but not willing to read. Is that right?


----------



## Trensharo

Kevin Fortin said:


> Perhaps you are more of a jackass than you can perceive on your own, and this is how we inform you about that.


You make literally no sense.

I'm not here to be nice. I don't care if you like me. My opinion has as much right to be here as anyone else's. Feel free to disagree, but don't troll - like you're doing atm.


----------



## dterry

Trensharo said:


> Context sensitive help isn't just for solving problems. It's a more efficient way of learning the software and acclimating nomenclature that is different from other similar applications.
> 
> And no, I am not going to read the DP Manual like Anna Karenina.
> 
> At this price point, a functional context help system is a fairly basic expectation. That being said, I don't think my initial post re: it was so inflammatory that the worthless quip from that blocked poster upthread was necessary 😉


Another DAW is probably a better choice for you. DP is a deep program that requires and rewards thinking through what you want to do, and finding the best way to do it, if you want to get the most out of it. It isn't a hand-holding simplified audio editor. Context sensitive help wouldn't work the way you probably expect it to. 

ProTools is very similar. If you don't take the time to learn key commands, and use them in context rather than expecting a help system to guide you, you won't get the most out of it. There is nothing wrong with reading a chapter in a manual when you want to learn how to do something. There are tips and features in the manual that you could never find in a context help system. You have to read to really learn a DAW. There is no way around it. Why argue about what one doesn't have when you could spend the time learning one that does what you want?


----------



## Trensharo

dterry said:


> Another DAW is probably a better choice for you. DP is a deep program that requires and rewards thinking through what you want to do, and finding the best way to do it, if you want to get the most out of it. It isn't a hand-holding simplified audio editor. Context sensitive help wouldn't work the way you probably expect it to.
> 
> ProTools is very similar. If you don't take the time to learn key commands, and use them in context rather than expecting a help system to guide you, you won't get the most out of it. There is nothing wrong with reading a chapter in a manual when you want to learn how to do something. There are tips and features in the manual that you could never find in a context help system. You have to read to really learn a DAW. There is no way around it. Why argue about what one doesn't have when you could spend the time learning one that does what you want?


...


----------



## cmillar

In addition to the great manual that MOTU has written for DP, the other best resource for DP is found at 'MotuNation' on the web.

Long time power users with 'real-world' use under their belts are there to help you out.

Thanks to 'MotuNation', I've solved countless problems over the years due to the great forum and the community of users.

The regular answer 'gurus' know their stuff. They have strong opinions and they all have a sense of humor and are able to laugh at themselves when they need to.

Plus....check out MOTU on YouTube. Excellent videos and tips.


----------



## machinesworking

It should be noted there's a basic Help menu that can be searched, that and the fact that everything in DP presents it's name when you hover the mouse over it, and there is a basic 'contextual' help in DP.


----------



## dterry

I assume Run Command (shift-space) has also been mentioned for quickly searching through key commands by key word - another great way to quickly figure out if there is a key command for what you want to do.


----------



## machinesworking

dterry said:


> I assume Run Command (shift-space) has also been mentioned for quickly searching through key commands by key word - another great way to quickly figure out if there is a key command for what you want to do.


Run Command is fantastic, if people aren't familiar it's a Spotlight style search engine for DP Commands. You can fire them by hitting return, so if it's something you don't use often, you don't even have to learn the command.


----------



## richhickey

I own Logic, Cubase, S1, Bitwig, Live, DP and others. DP's documentation is by far the best IMO, and DP does have integrated help, and a fantastic key command search etc. The tireless repetitive beating of the CHM drum is ruining this thread. Point stated - users with many decades experience with the product disagree.


----------



## AEF

The latest update for me has been less stable sadly. More random crashes.


----------



## Garlu

It seems like v11.02 is out!


> Enhancements and optimizations
> 
> Added an MCU "single fader" plugin. Useful for iCON Platform Nano, Presonus Faderport, and any other single-channel MCU control surface.



Link to full list of fixes: 
https://cdn-data.motu.com/manuals/software/dp/v1102/DP11.02_readme.pdf


----------



## musicalweather

Nice to see a robust discussion on DP here on VI-C. I'm looking forward to upgrading to 11 (articulation management at last! DP's lack of articulation management was the whole reason I started exploring Cubase and Studio One in the last year.). Anyway, using Touch OSC to control DP is not too hard. I made a very rudimentary transport control for DP in it. Also, wanted to point out that FB has a nice group for DP users -- look under MotuGuru.


----------



## kgdrum

So far no major problems with DP 11.02 but one project seems to be corrupted (it started misbehaving in 11.01) it hangs when I try to save and quit.
I seem to vaguely remember there’s a way to import everything into a new project and re-save but I’m not remembering exactly how and what to do……
🤔


----------



## Garlu

kgdrum said:


> So far no major problems with DP 11.02 but one project seems to be corrupted (it started misbehaving in 11.01) it hangs when I try to save and quit.
> I seem to vaguely remember there’s a way to import everything into a new project and re-save but I’m not remembering exactly how and what to do……
> 🤔


"File /Load" - Select the Chunk you want to import...


----------



## kgdrum

@Garlu Thanks!
I’m unfortunately a perpetual perplexed novice with some aspects of DP like Chunks which I know is unforgivable,lol I want to understand the deeper aspects of DP but have never really gotten deep enough to grasp Chunks even though I presume I’m already using them unknowingly but haven’t grasped this most important feature of DP conceptually or or some of the other newer intricacies like V-Racks.
Am I correct in assuming that a project can be looked at as one big Chunk? 
I need to take a DP deep dive, i keep on meaning to study the GROOVE3 tutorials which I subscribe to but I just never get around to actually doing it. I guess it’s time!
Thanks


----------



## Dewdman42

The groove3 lessons are excellent.

A project is a collection of chunks, but if you don’t create any additional chunks then you just have one chunk.


----------



## kgdrum

@Dewdman42
Thanks that’s what I thought!
Now you see why I appreciate you and Garlu’s input and why I always appreciate a good drummer joke!😂
I come from more of a players perspective and honestly I’m not delusional enough to consider myself a composer and I’m still somewhat perplexed with the DAW/midi environment & paradigm.
I need to spend more time with this obviously.
Again a big Thanks to both you and Garlu 👍


----------



## 60s Pop Man

kgdrum said:


> I need to take a DP deep dive, i keep on meaning to study the GROOVE3 tutorials which I subscribe to but I just never get around to actually doing it. I guess it’s time!
> Thanks


Here's another vote for the value of the Groove 3 DP tutorials. 
DP8 Explained is project based and introduces and explains DP functions in the process of completing a project. I think this approach is essential for laying down a solid foundation of understanding. Once the foundation is in place it's easier and more productive to seek out specific information related to your needs. 

DP8 Advanced is also useful but some features have been updated like pitch, time stretch, and beat detection. A suggestion is to move on to the DP 10 Editing MIDI Explained, DP10 Recording and Editing Audio Explained, and DP10 Mixing & Mastering Explained.

I have all of the Groove 3 DP tutorials and revisit specific topics when needed. Since you're a subscriber, what are you waiting for (a gentle prod)?

Regarding Chunks, check out this series from MOTU TV


----------



## Dewdman42

I think there might be a webinar about chunks too


----------



## 60s Pop Man

There are webinars that mention Chunks. 
April 24, 2020
Film Scoring 101
- Use Chunks and V-Racks.

June 16, 2020
Dialing in the Perfect Template
- Review Chunks, V-Racks and Templates.

July 16, 2020
Live in Concert with Mike McKnight
- Review Chunks, timecode, and start times.

August 11,2020
Composing and Orchestration with Guest Ron Jones
- Combine Chunks into a Song
- Using Chunks for album projects

November 13, 2020
Back to Basics /Adavanced Tips & Tricks
- Revisit Chunks start, locked markers, movie audio routing

November 19, 2020
Conforming tracks and projects
- Create or eliminate multiple Chunks in a project


May 16, 2021
Film scoring tips with hands-on scoring lesson
- Set Chunk start times, etc.


----------



## kgdrum

60s Pop Man said:


> Here's another vote for the value of the Groove 3 DP tutorials.
> DP8 Explained is project based and introduces and explains DP functions in the process of completing a project. I think this approach is essential for laying down a solid foundation of understanding. Once the foundation is in place it's easier and more productive to seek out specific information related to your needs.
> 
> DP8 Advanced is also useful but some features have been updated like pitch, time stretch, and beat detection. A suggestion is to move on to the DP 10 Editing MIDI Explained, DP10 Recording and Editing Audio Explained, and DP10 Mixing & Mastering Explained.
> 
> I have all of the Groove 3 DP tutorials and revisit specific topics when needed. Since you're a subscriber, what are you waiting for (a gentle prod)?
> 
> Regarding Chunks, check out this series from MOTU TV



Thanks So Much! 👍


----------



## kgdrum

60s Pop Man said:


> There are webinars that mention Chunks. All Coming Soon!
> April 24, 2020
> Film Scoring 101
> - Use Chunks and V-Racks.
> 
> June 16, 2020
> Dialing in the Perfect Template
> - Review Chunks, V-Racks and Templates.
> 
> July 16, 2020
> Live in Concert with Mike McKnight
> - Review Chunks, timecode, and start times.
> 
> August 11,2020
> Composing and Orchestration with Guest Ron Jones
> - Combine Chunks into a Song
> - Using Chunks for album projects
> 
> November 13, 2020
> Back to Basics /Adavanced Tips & Tricks
> - Revisit Chunks start, locked markers, movie audio routing
> 
> November 19, 2020
> Conforming tracks and projects
> - Create or eliminate multiple Chunks in a project
> 
> 
> May 16, 2021
> Film scoring tips with hands-on scoring lesson
> - Set Chunk start times, etc.


Thank You! All of you might prompting me to finally learn DP properly,I’ve always just dived in superficially without a thorough well rooted understanding (drummer jokes welcome) 😂


----------



## kgdrum

Well besides learning a bit more about DP troubleshooting I figured out Elysia Karakter was the guilty party responsible causing the project to hang when I was attempting to close it,it’s too bad I like this plugin. I guess there’s no harm in seeing if the VST is less problematic than the AU.
I think DP supporting various plug-in formats is an amazing advantage DP offers that’s generally overlooked. A DAW like Logic only basically supporting AU and not also supporting VST is to me unfortunate.
But hallelujah! I’m making a little progress! 😂………….to be continued.
Again a big THANKS to everyone’s great suggestions and input. 👍


----------



## Dewdman42

Yes though they need to do better at supporting VST3 and I also wish they would add support for AUmfx midi plugins.


----------



## kgdrum

Dewdman42 said:


> Yes though they need to do better at supporting VST3 and I also wish they would add support for AUmfx midi plugins.


Yeah there’s definitely a need for better VST3 support but MOTU is still doing better than most developers with the range of supported plugin platforms.


----------



## bdr

Has anyone got any recordings of the webinars? Yeah I know, its not 100% kosher but MOTU literally refuse to post them (I have had many many back and forths with them, it's insanely frustrating) and they are all on at 2 or 3 in the AM in Australia. There's a few that would really help me out, and I'd really like to see the upcoming DP11 ones. Sincere thanks if anyone can assist.


----------



## Dewdman42

My understanding is that some of them either weren’t that great or wandered off topic or whatever to the point they they would need to be edited in order to be worthy of motu posting them. I simply would not hold my breath this will ever happen. Perhaps new ones in the future will be better


----------



## 60s Pop Man

The few webinars that I have watched were incredibly helpful. So yes it is frustrating to see an extensive listing of topics, most of which I would learn a great deal from, just sitting there.


----------



## machinesworking

They keep on saying they plan to post them, but yes, they want to edit them for content. The ones with professional guests also have expletives and trash talk on other famous people. More than once Matt used the beta to do the demo and crashed the program, so that sort of thing would be edited out.


----------



## 60s Pop Man

I understand the need to edit content for the reasons listed above, but I don't understand why MOTU doesn't chip away at the list to make more webinars available.

For cryin' out loud, Club Cubase events over three hours long per session with some awkward moments are made available immediately after the live stream.


----------



## kgdrum

60s Pop Man said:


> I understand the need to edit content for the reasons listed above, but I don't understand why MOTU doesn't chip away at the list to make more webinars available.
> 
> For cryin' out loud, Club Cubase events over three hours long per session with some awkward moments are made available immediately after the live stream.


Besides the valuable knowledge that these webinars could offer to the eager user base the marketing opportunity MOTU isn’t taking advantage of seems like a complete oversight and borders on baffling.


----------



## machinesworking

kgdrum said:


> Besides the valuable knowledge that these webinars could offer to the eager user base the marketing opportunity MOTU isn’t taking advantage of seems like a complete oversight and borders on baffling.


It doesn't border there, it crossed that line when they stopped doing webinars at the exact moment DP11 came out. Plus not releasing but four webinars. They shoot themselves in the foot IMO.


----------



## Al Maurice

The fact is DP11's release was kind of kept quiet, the press releases came out after we heard about it.

And the roll out to the trade was rather slow take up too. In the meantime other DAW developers were quick off the mark about the same time, with the usual blaze of fanfare.


----------



## aniruddh_immaneni

Has anyone fully tested this on Windows 10? Is it stable enough? 
Just based on chunks & the articulation maps negative delay options alone I'm ready to switch from cubase 11!
Does Motu offer competitive crossgrades?


----------



## aniruddh_immaneni

As a follow up question, are there any good dp beginner courses out there that are up to date?


----------



## Dr.Quest

aniruddh_immaneni said:


> Does Motu offer competitive crossgrades?


Yes, I believe they do. Ironically I crossgraded from Performer to Cubase at the first part of this year. Still like Performer. I think I started with version 3.


----------



## machinesworking

There’s a 30 day demo of DP11 on their site, enough time to work out configuration and see if your plugins etc. are compatible with DP11. Cross grade is $399, but I’ve seen it for sale used for $200 often enough.


----------



## dterry

aniruddh_immaneni said:


> Has anyone fully tested this on Windows 10? Is it stable enough?
> Just based on chunks & the articulation maps negative delay options alone I'm ready to switch from cubase 11!


I have DP11 here on Win10. It is stable. The only negative with DP on Windows that has been there since the beginning, is that it isn't as snappy as Cubase, especially with large templates. Scrolling through the mixer can be a chore, and navigating, starting and stopping playback can have some noticeable lags. This is not plugin compensation or buffer related (i.e. anything the user can solve). It may be graphics, or just DP not being as optimized for Windows. My video card is more than sufficient. I've tested it many times trying to find ways to improve DP's responsiveness with large templates, using identical plugins, routing, VEP connections as I have in Cubase, and even using alternate reverbs, and routing approaches/simplifications that seem more efficient in DP specifically. 

Busses and VEPro connections (VRack or within a Sequence, doesn't matter) seem to be the main culprits for DP, where Cubase scrolls effortlessly and responds quickly with exactly the same template configuration (I duplicated my template in both to compare). I still like a lot about DP, but it just doesn't feel smooth and responsive on Windows (8 or 10). I am curious if it is better in that regard on OSX.


----------



## machinesworking

dterry said:


> I have DP11 here on Win10. It is stable. The only negative with DP on Windows that has been there since the beginning, is that it isn't as snappy as Cubase, especially with large templates. Scrolling through the mixer can be a chore, and navigating, starting and stopping playback can have some noticeable lags. This is not plugin compensation or buffer related (i.e. anything the user can solve). It may be graphics, or just DP not being as optimized for Windows. My video card is more than sufficient. I've tested it many times trying to find ways to improve DP's responsiveness with large templates, using identical plugins, routing, VEP connections as I have in Cubase, and even using alternate reverbs, and routing approaches/simplifications that seem more efficient in DP specifically.
> 
> Busses and VEPro connections (VRack or within a Sequence, doesn't matter) seem to be the main culprits for DP, where Cubase scrolls effortlessly and responds quickly with exactly the same template configuration (I duplicated my template in both to compare). I still like a lot about DP, but it just doesn't feel smooth and responsive on Windows (8 or 10). I am curious if it is better in that regard on OSX.


curious, does Vienna publish a MAS VEP plug in for Windows? if not that could help, what with 0ver 700 possible MIDI tracks to the server..


----------



## Dewdman42

dterry said:


> I am curious if it is better in that regard on OSX.



I haven't had those kinds of issues on OSX. I encourage you to try to work with MOTU tech support to see if its resolvable, or often not that could get attention for fixes to the software. DP was only brought to windows a few years back...for decades it was a MacOS only product. what are the specs of your Windows machine in terms of CPU, GPU and memory, etc.?


----------



## dterry

machinesworking said:


> curious, does Vienna publish a MAS VEP plug in for Windows? if not that could help, what with 0ver 700 possible MIDI tracks to the server..


Yes. I use the MAS version exclusively. I even tested with only MAS plugins. It's simply a matter of project size. I just tested with 500 midi tracks, and switching between the Tracks and Sequence editors is slow. Opening the mixer is very slow, as is scrolling through tracks in the Mixer. Scrolling the Tracks window is fine.


----------



## dterry

Dewdman42 said:


> I haven't had those kinds of issues on OSX. I encourage you to try to work with MOTU tech support to see if its resolvable, or often not that could get attention for fixes to the software. DP was only brought to windows a few years back...for decades it was a MacOS only product. what are the specs of your Windows machine in terms of CPU, GPU and memory, etc.?


I have reported several issues to MOTU, including this one a few versions back. I'll contact them again and see what might come of it. The system is an i7, 64G ram, GTX 960 card (2G VRam). It's plenty for Cubase, ProTools, etc, so this sluggishness could be unique to Windows, or Windows plus some system element neither MOTU or I am aware of. 

I see you have a MacPro 5.1. If it runs well there, then this is likely Windows related, not system. My i7 is comparable (6 physical cores, 12 virtual, 3.6GHz). I would be curious to see how a new M1 (even with only 16G Ram) performs with DP11 and VEPro linked to external slave PCs. If it is fast and responsive, that could be an option, at least for some looking to switch to DP.


----------



## Dewdman42

admittedly I haven't created a 500 track project for DP yet. I will run some tests.


----------



## Dewdman42

Ok I take it back. I just create quickly a 500 track project.... first of all switching between tabs in the consolidated window takes a very long time. its like DP is rendering a lot of stuff before it will switch. Secondly I can't even scroll the mixer at all. 

So whatever is going on, is not just Windows. And I view this as fairly serious if you are in need of large templates.


----------



## machinesworking

dterry said:


> I have reported several issues to MOTU, including this one a few versions back. I'll contact them again and see what might come of it. The system is an i7, 64G ram, GTX 960 card (2G VRam). It's plenty for Cubase, ProTools, etc, so this sluggishness could be unique to Windows, or Windows plus some system element neither MOTU or I am aware of.
> 
> I see you have a MacPro 5.1. If it runs well there, then this is likely Windows related, not system. My i7 is comparable (6 physical cores, 12 virtual, 3.6GHz). I would be curious to see how a new M1 (even with only 16G Ram) performs with DP11 and VEPro linked to external slave PCs. If it is fast and responsive, that could be an option, at least for some looking to switch to DP.


It could be your video card. the only beyond OS difference I see is I’ve got the RX 580 8gb, maybe take a look at GPU resources?


----------



## Dewdman42

MW did you try to create a 500 track project? I immediately had similar results even with just 500 empty tracks... I also have the RX580. I don't think that's the issue.


----------



## machinesworking

Dewdman42 said:


> MW did you try to create a 500 track project? I immediately had similar results even with just 500 empty tracks... I also have the RX580. I don't think that's the issue.


Did not, I’m not at my studios, report back when I get there later tonight…


----------



## Dewdman42

I already filed a bug report.


----------



## dterry

Dewdman42 said:


> Ok I take it back. I just create quickly a 500 track project.... first of all switching between tabs in the consolidated window takes a very long time. its like DP is rendering a lot of stuff before it will switch. Secondly I can't even scroll the mixer at all.
> 
> So whatever is going on, is not just Windows. And I view this as fairly serious if you are in need of large templates.


Thank you for testing - that narrows it down quite a bit more as being a DP issue. I'll file a TechLink with MOTU and see if they can offer some input. It would probably help narrow things down if you and/or other Mac users contact them as well. I know plenty of DP users run large templates, so maybe it works better for others. It does sound like something MOTU will have to address. I really doubt an RX 3080 with 12G of VRAM would make much of a difference, but if that's what it takes to run DP, MOTU needs to do some optimizing (the 3080 is over $2k).


----------



## machinesworking

dterry said:


> Thank you for testing - that narrows it down quite a bit more as being a DP issue. I'll file a TechLink with MOTU and see if they can offer some input. It would probably help narrow things down if you and/or other Mac users contact them as well. I know plenty of DP users run large templates, so maybe it works better for others. It does sound like something MOTU will have to address. I really doubt an RX 3080 with 12G of VRAM would make much of a difference, but if that's what it takes to run DP, MOTU needs to do some optimizing (the 3080 is over $2k).


It might be down to a preference setting or something weird like that? I’m able to make most of the motu DP training webinars, I will try to get Matt Lepoint their LA man who runs them to address it, no doubt he’s dealt with it considering he works with Elfman etc.


----------



## machinesworking

So on the M1 MacBook Air, using Create Tracks , one VEP instance, 500 MIDI tracks, it takes no time to switch to the Tracks window, a little over two seconds to switch to the Sequence window and almost 4 seconds to switch to the Mixer?!... ouch! Scrolling is absolutely fine here. I'll test the similar to Dewdmans Mac Pro here and see if it's better/worse there.


----------



## dterry

At least scrolling is improved on the M1. Some parts of GUI response seem likely to benefit from the faster memory access in the M1 architecture, but the rest looks like inefficient graphics handling in DP.

A partial workaround for switching edit windows, and the mixer is to switch to pop-out (Sequence editor and Mixer in my case), and leave them open. It seems they are completely redrawn/rebuilt every time they are loaded if closed, or kept in the consolidated window. I just use single-key commands to switch between, bringing the one recalled into focus. 

This doesn't solve the impossibly slow scrolling through channels in the Mixer though, and the Sequence editor is still a bit sluggish to scroll through tracks compared to the Tracks window. And the Track Selector is still painfully slow in the Track window sidebar, and Mixer. Nearly unusable. 

I also tested 300-audio tracks - similar results. In addition, zooming in and out is slow, especially during playback. Realtime load jumps to 50% with just one track of audio (the rest empty). 300 empty audio tracks sits at 25% Realtime load. No idea why DP needs that much overhead just to host empty audio tracks. No PDC, buffering or pregen would be needed. It seems to have a huge overhead just to load the GUI. Maybe it is time DP dropped the static graphics GUI and went with a fully vector GUI a la Cubase, Studio One, etc. I know that's easier said than done, and may not even be possible.


----------



## Dewdman42

machinesworking said:


> So on the M1 MacBook Air, using Create Tracks , one VEP instance, 500 MIDI tracks, it takes no time to switch to the Tracks window, a little over two seconds to switch to the Sequence window and almost 4 seconds to switch to the Mixer?!... ouch! Scrolling is absolutely fine here. I'll test the similar to Dewdmans Mac Pro here and see if it's better/worse there.



It takes mine at least 20 seconds to switch to the mixer view and completely unable to scroll. I created 500 midi tracks and 500 instrument tracks, no VePro.


----------



## machinesworking

can confirm it's almost twice as long to open up the mixer on an Intel Mac Pro 7+ seconds each time. It's also choppier scrolling on the Mac Pro? So this is as DP issue for sure, a quick check, putting all 500 tracks into 5 folders and closing them for all windows makes them all open up just fine, DP seems to need to scan all the visible tracks for some reason? IMO it might be more due to DP's Track selection features, a test putting 100 tracks apiece into 5 folders made switching massively quicker. Not a bad way to work in general with big templates, but the Mixer being the worst and the least useful in Folders.... IMO it's something to write them about, they seem to be on an optimizing and catching up with the Joneses phase so....


----------



## machinesworking

Dewdman42 said:


> It takes mine at least 20 seconds to switch to the mixer view and completely unable to scroll. I created 500 midi tracks and 500 instrument tracks, no VePro.


ouch! no wonder it's bogged down though. I just added 499 VEP instances and it's still creating them!


----------



## Dewdman42

I created as unassigned instrument tracks though...but anyway, I think the main problem is not related to specific instruments...just having lots of tracks of rendering DP unusable really.


----------



## machinesworking

Dewdman42 said:


> I created as unassigned instrument tracks though...but anyway, I think the main problem is not related to specific instruments...just having lots of tracks of rendering DP unusable really.


the workaround is definitely track folders from what I can tell, hopefully there's another answer to it that works better with the mixer though..


----------



## Kevin Fortin

aniruddh_immaneni said:


> As a follow up question, are there any good dp beginner courses out there that are up to date?


I don't know about full courses, but on YouTube I would suggest these channels:
motuTV
David Das
Bo Astrup

Even though some of the videos might be a few years old, they would still be relevant, and if you are already familiar with Cubase you won't need the beginner 101 stuff anyway.

Compared to Cubase, I think some of DP's major differences would be:
bundles for audio routing at the project level
[edit: separate MIDI and instrument tracks]
sequences and chunks
the V-rack

Hoping this gives you a good start, and of course there are some here who are much more familiar with DP than I, who could probably answer your questions better as they come up.


----------



## musicalweather

Just upgraded tonight, and so far have not taken a deep dive with DP 11 yet. But -- so far I love it! I loooove the articulation maps (this is really the whole reason for me upgrading). I've been busy importing maps from Cubase -- it's all worked without a hitch. I really like how one can drag notes down to the appropriate articulation row in the editor, or use a pencil to effectively do the same thing. Very happy so far.


----------



## machinesworking

So I just went through an M1 stress test with the available DAWs on my system, and it's pretty wild really. DP is trouncing everyone on the M1 Air here, not even close. https://vi-control.net/community/threads/diva-stress-test-5-daw-shootout-dp11-by-a-long-shot.116740/


----------



## musicalweather

It looks like the color of the velocities in the midi edit window have changed. They're now light gray, against a lighter gray background. Yuck! Anyone know if this can be changed?


----------



## bdr

I recently did a film using DP11 and a biggish template. Every issue of slowness that I had appeared to be related to mixer redraw. I'm still on a MacPro 5,1 but it's about as quick as you can make one of them.


----------



## dterry

musicalweather said:


> It looks like the color of the velocities in the midi edit window have changed. They're now light gray, against a lighter gray background. Yuck! Anyone know if this can be changed?


No way to change the color of velocities that I can find (nothing in the Style files). It was probably chosen using the Default, dark DP 11 theme, but you are right, it is terrible with other themes. Using grey for active data makes no sense.


----------



## Trensharo

The crossgrade is only $195, currently, so I picked it up. I'm noticing some really bad VST Support, both for VST2 and VST3. Plug-ins that run everywhere else fail in Digital Performer. Basically have to keep both versions installed because in many cases one fails while the other doesn't.

Running on Windows.

I cannot get Komplete Kontrol to load. It scans, and it's enabled, but it isn't in the plug-in list for Instruments or Effects. Anyone know why that is?

Text is still a bit small and I'd prefer if the text was less tiny without me having to blow up the entire user interface. I think it will be fine on my desktop, though. Comparing to Studio One, it isn't super bad... It just has more text in the general UI.


----------



## machinesworking

Trensharo said:


> The crossgrade is only $195, currently, so I picked it up. I'm noticing some really bad VST Support, both for VST2 and VST3. Plug-ins that run everywhere else fail in Digital Performer. Basically have to keep both versions installed because in many cases one fails while the other doesn't.
> 
> Running on Windows.
> 
> I cannot get Komplete Kontrol to load. It scans, and it's enabled, but it isn't in the plug-in list for Instruments or Effects. Anyone know why that is?
> 
> Text is still a bit small and I'd prefer if the text was less tiny without me having to blow up the entire user interface. I think it will be fine on my desktop, though. Comparing to Studio One, it isn't super bad... It just has more text in the general UI.


I there’s what I would consider a cross platform bug with VST3 Reason Rack and a few other multi instruments that might be affecting Komplete Control where it loads only in audio or Aux tracks, you then point a midi track at it and it works. Hope that helps. 

Weird bug, but motu have their own audio protocol like ASIO and VST combined called MOTU Audio System or MAS, and all formats pass through it. So they need to rewrite their VST2-3 MAS plug in to recognize VSTi’s with audio inputs as instruments and not FX.


----------



## Trensharo

It's not showing up anywhere, regardless of track type.

It is as if it is not installed...

Kind of a showstopper. I don't really consider it usable if I cannot access this plug-in. I might put in for a refund, since the problem is likely known and it's been like.. 5 (?) months since DP 11 was released... A fix is likely not coming soon'ish.


----------



## Trensharo

Also, there is some weirdness where if DP is running, my Windows key does not work. It only works when DP does not have focus.

After installation, I actually thought my laptop keyboard was broken because of this.

Makes multi-tasking a PITA because you must click out of DP or use the mouse to click the start menu. I've never had an application block something like that before.


----------



## Gary Williamson

I sold my DP 10 license, it was blocking all kind of plugins that were fine on S1 and was buggy. I bought Cubase 11 and all is good on that platform(on PC anyway) If you're on PC , I would not recommend DP, lots of pros use it bit I think they're on Macs?


----------



## Trensharo

I already own those DAWs. I used Studio One as a backup when traveling. DP would be, initially, replacing that. On my studio workstation, I use Cubase. But, since DP is better with video work, I figured why not. I have some disposable income, so I mind as well give it a whirl. $195 is relatively cheap.

I didn't know it was so bad with plug-ins, though.

This does feel like going back to the early days of VST, when DAWs were only just implementing support for it in the 90s.


----------



## cmillar

Trensharo said:


> I already own those DAWs. I used Studio One as a backup when traveling. DP would be, initially, replacing that. On my studio workstation, I use Cubase. But, since DP is better with video work, I figured why not. I have some disposable income, so I mind as well give it a whirl. $195 is relatively cheap.
> 
> I didn't know it was so bad with plug-ins, though.
> 
> This does feel like going back to the early days of VST, when DAWs were only just implementing support for it in the 90s.


Have you visited the forum www.MOTUnation.com ?

You'll find some pretty knowledgable long-time users who know DP inside/out there. Might be able to answer some questions you have.


----------



## machinesworking

Trensharo said:


> It's not showing up anywhere, regardless of track type.
> 
> It is as if it is not installed...
> 
> Kind of a showstopper. I don't really consider it usable if I cannot access this plug-in. I might put in for a refund, since the problem is likely known and it's been like.. 5 (?) months since DP 11 was released... A fix is likely not coming soon'ish.


Contact support. Komplete Control is 100% supposed to work, they just added advanced support for the Komplete keyboards in 11, this isn't normal behavior this would have certainly been a big part of DP11 beta testing, running Komplete Control, so something is off. They actually have phone support BTW, which to me is a HUGE plus.

Ask about the Windows key issue as well, that sounds odd to me, but it might be that DP is using it for some Command?


----------



## Trensharo

machinesworking said:


> Contact support. Komplete Control is 100% supposed to work, they just added advanced support for the Komplete keyboards in 11, this isn't normal behavior this would have certainly been a big part of DP11 beta testing, running Komplete Control, so something is off. They actually have phone support BTW, which to me is a HUGE plus.
> 
> Ask about the Windows key issue as well, that sounds odd to me, but it might be that DP is using it for some Command?


Have, they got back to me. Will see what they say, maybe next week since tomorrow is a holiday.

The plug-in shows up in Audio Plug-in settings and passes inspection. I can enable it, but it does not show up in any Instrument/Effect dialogs.


----------



## Trensharo

cmillar said:


> Have you visited the forum www.MOTUnation.com ?
> 
> You'll find some pretty knowledgable long-time users who know DP inside/out there. Might be able to answer some questions you have.


I've searched it for any mention of the issue, but I haven't registered there. Support from MOTU seems quite prompt and thorough, so I'll see if support can help with the issue before creating another internet account :-P

*EDIT:* _Issue resolved by uninstalling Komplete Kontrol and then re-installing it from scratch. Not sure what the issue was, but the "Re-Install" option in Native Access wasn't enough to get it done. I had to uninstall from Control Panel and then install from Native Access. Once I did that, it showed up in Digital Performer 11._

Time to start playing with it!

Off the bat, I'm really liking how the Articulation Maps work. They have scoring symbols and text built into the notation for almost everything in my expression maps, and it automatically assigns the correct one to almost every articulation.

Very click heavy user experience, though...


----------



## Tempfram

Audio wise, what is the advantage of DP over the rest of the established DAWs (Reaper included)?


----------



## Chamberfield

I'm using DP10 on a 2019 Mac pro/Catalina w/ VEP7 and lately it's been crashing on me every day, especially if I switch between projects. I'm pretty fed up and can't take it anymore, so I'm wondering:
- would upgrading to DP11 offer more stability?
- should I switch to another DAW? I tried Logic and hated it, but downloaded a demo of Cubase and I think I could get onboard once I get used it, but not sure if it's more stable than DP.

Would love to hear some advice from anyone experiencing similar issues.


----------



## Trensharo

Tempfram said:


> Audio wise, what is the advantage of DP over the rest of the established DAWs (Reaper included)?


Nothing. Reaper has Spectral Editing, IIRC, but honestly audio is largely a solved domain until you get into time stretching and pitch manipulation (Melodyne, etc.), stem splitting. Most DAWs are good with audio, with few exceptions. DAWs like Samplitude and Pro Tools are stronger than REAPER if Audio is what you do.

Generally speaking, though, there isn’t a huge difference. It’s mostly a difference in workflow, UI, and UX.

DP seems very menu and dialog driven, like REAPER. Avoid if you want tons of drag and drop (Studio One, Cubase, Cakewalk are all significantly better there).

And on Windiws it disables the Windows Key when it’s in focus. I am not sure how I am going to work around that. I’ve never had an application nerf usability on a computer so hard. That is a first for me. The Windows key is kind of a big deal. Tons of top-level OS shortcuts use that button, so DP forces you to relearn how to use windows productively when it is running and in focus - if you’re used to using these shortcuts.


----------



## Dewdman42

Chamberfield said:


> I'm using DP10 on a 2019 Mac pro/Catalina w/ VEP7 and lately it's been crashing on me every day, especially if I switch between projects. I'm pretty fed up and can't take it anymore, so I'm wondering:
> - would upgrading to DP11 offer more stability?



DP11 has not been crashing for me (Once I got past plugin scanning). DP10 was not crashing on me before that either. I don't think most people were having that kind of constant problem with DP10 crashing. So will upgrading to DP 11 solve your problem? Maybe, but I think you need to look deeper into what is causing it to crash on you first...because DP11 may very well have the same problem for you as you are having now... I don't think that is typical DP10 behavior.



Chamberfield said:


> - should I switch to another DAW? I tried Logic and hated it, but downloaded a demo of Cubase and I think I could get onboard once I get used it, but not sure if it's more stable than DP.



As I said, I don't think your crashing is for sure going to be solved even by switching DAW's, something is going on with your setup which may or may not even be related to MOTU software. In my mind the compelling reason to change DAW's is for features you need or want in the other DAW.


----------



## dts_marin

Trensharo said:


> I've searched it for any mention of the issue, but I haven't registered there. Support from MOTU seems quite prompt and thorough, so I'll see if support can help with the issue before creating another internet account :-P
> 
> *EDIT:* _Issue resolved by uninstalling Komplete Kontrol and then re-installing it from scratch. Not sure what the issue was, but the "Re-Install" option in Native Access wasn't enough to get it done. I had to uninstall from Control Panel and then install from Native Access. Once I did that, it showed up in Digital Performer 11._
> 
> Time to start playing with it!
> 
> Off the bat, I'm really liking how the Articulation Maps work. They have scoring symbols and text built into the notation for almost everything in my expression maps, and it automatically assigns the correct one to almost every articulation.
> 
> Very click heavy user experience, though...


Exactly, really click heavy UX. Many actions are mouse exclusive and impossible to automate even with advanced macros. They need to make everything that makes sense accessible via keyboard and add a basic macro creator.


----------



## Trensharo

dts_marin said:


> Exactly, really click heavy UX. Many actions are mouse exclusive and impossible to automate even with advanced macros. They need to make everything that makes sense accessible via keyboard and add a basic macro creator.


Keyboard shortcuts are configurable, like most any other DAW. Looking through the GUI, most things that matter are available via keyboard shortcuts. Issue is every DAW has its own distinct keybinds. There is no standard like there is for software that generally follow CUA conventions for common functions.

Generally, I prefer to just map a Tartarus/Naga Profile and put all equivalent basic functions on the same buttons regardless of DAW, NLE, etc. This makes jumping between software packages fairly trivial - e.g. "Insert Track" is the same button whether I'm using Pro Tools, Cubase, Studio One, etc.

The lack of drag and drop for Instruments, FX, etc. creates a lot of extra clicks, though, and really affects the "feel" of using the software. I guess one can say that it feels more like Pro Tools than Cubase in terms of operation.


----------



## dts_marin

Trensharo said:


> Keyboard shortcuts are configurable, like most any other DAW. Looking through the GUI, most things that matter are available via keyboard shortcuts. Issue is every DAW has its own distinct keybinds. There is no standard like there is for software that generally follow CUA conventions for common functions.
> 
> Generally, I prefer to just map a Tartarus/Naga Profile and put all equivalent basic functions on the same buttons regardless of DAW, NLE, etc. This makes jumping between software packages fairly trivial - e.g. "Insert Track" is the same button whether I'm using Pro Tools, Cubase, Studio One, etc.
> 
> The lack of drag and drop for Instruments, FX, etc. creates a lot of extra clicks, though, and really affects the "feel" of using the software. I guess one can say that it feels more like Pro Tools than Cubase in terms of operation.


You might not have understood what I said here. Of course the provided keyboard shortcuts are configurable. The problem with DP is that a LOT of actions can't be accessed without a mouse which slows things considerably. e.g. you want to change track color? You need to click. You want to edit articulation maps you need to click...

Studio One and Reaper are far better and put a lot of the actions accessible via keyboard or their respective macro editor or action window which opens possibilities for efficient automation of tasks.


----------



## Chamberfield

Dewdman42 said:


> I think you need to look deeper into what is causing it to crash on you first...because DP11 may very well have the same problem for you as you are having now... I don't think that is typical DP10 behavior.
> 
> something is going on with your setup which may or may not even be related to MOTU software. In my mind the compelling reason to change DAW's is for features you need or want in the other DAW.



Good point, I haven't looked into other causes yet. I suppose there could be some faulty RAM at play here. I'll do some troubleshooting and see if I find anything.


----------



## Trensharo

dts_marin said:


> You might not have understood what I said here. Of course the provided keyboard shortcuts are configurable. The problem with DP is that a LOT of actions can't be accessed without a mouse which slows things considerably. e.g. you want to change track color? You need to click. You want to edit articulation maps you need to click...
> 
> Studio One and Reaper are far better and put a lot of the actions accessible via keyboard or their respective macro editor or action window which opens possibilities for efficient automation of tasks.


Most things you can set a shortcut for. Dorico is another application where a lot of useful functions aren’t keybound by default.


----------



## Dewdman42

I see that is a very small issue. DP has the commands thing for getting to any feature quick. You can assign hot keys to almost everything, and for the couple of things you might have to use a mouse (gasp) there is always Keyboard Maestro to solve it. This is not a serious consideration to make or break DP. 

Comparing DP's gui to Reaper's is ludicrous. Reaper gui is crap. 

StudioOne arguably has a lot of cool work flow productivity features above just about all the other daw's including DP, no doubt about that...


----------



## dts_marin

Dewdman42 said:


> I see that is a very small issue. DP has the commands thing for getting to any feature quick. You can assign hot keys to almost everything, and for the couple of things you might have to use a mouse (gasp) there is always Keyboard Maestro to solve it. This is not a serious consideration to make or break DP.
> 
> Comparing DP's gui to Reaper's is ludicrous. Reaper gui is crap.
> 
> StudioOne arguably has a lot of cool work flow productivity features above just about all the other daw's including DP, no doubt about that...


All those little things add up. Computers are designed around the keyboard. Even after decades of the addition of the mouse the keyboard still can do everything in a well designed software/OS. The mouse was a later addition and it isn't intuitive for repetitive tasks. DAWs have a ton of repetitive tasks.

Reaper and Studio One are special because they give access to behind the scenes data for a lot of functions which can be quite powerful.

To be fair my only experiences with DAWs are with DP and Reaper. Maybe other DAWs are a lot more restrictive than DP.

But the mouse isn't the best tool. Yeah it's convenient and you don't need to do anything else to use it but what if you want smarter and more reliable control?


----------



## Dewdman42

chunks and other unique features of DP add up to WAY more then you are making out of that mole hill. As I said you can solve your keyboard frustration with Keyboard Maestro.


----------



## Trensharo

Figured out the Windows Key issue. DP uses the Windows key for a lot of keyboard shortcuts in the application, so it basically takes it over. It's a really awful thing they adopted when porting the application over from macOS.

I can't believe any developer would even think of doing such a thing. Imagine if Microsoft Word took over the Command Key in macOS and disabled all system-level keyboard shortcuts when it was in focus.


----------



## dterry

Trensharo said:


> Figured out the Windows Key issue. DP uses the Windows key for a lot of keyboard shortcuts in the application, so it basically takes it over. It's a really awful thing they adopted when porting the application over from macOS.
> 
> I can't believe any developer would even think of doing such a thing. Imagine if Microsoft Word took over the Command Key in macOS and disabled all system-level keyboard shortcuts when it was in focus.


I've never found that to be a limitation but an advantage. It opens up many more key command combinations, and the ability to configure key commands around common modifiers to improve memorability and efficiency. The only thing I ever use the Windows key for is to pull up the Start Menu, and once in a DAW, I just don't need it. I actually wish other DAWs would take over the windows key. It's wasted key space for me most of the time.


----------



## Trensharo

dterry said:


> I've never found that to be a limitation but an advantage. It opens up many more key command combinations, and the ability to configure key commands around common modifiers to improve memorability and efficiency. The only thing I ever use the Windows key for is to pull up the Start Menu, and once in a DAW, I just don't need it. I actually wish other DAWs would take over the windows key. It's wasted key space for me most of the time.


How you use your PC is your prerogative, but WinKey is used in a ton of basic global keyboard shortcuts. Taking over it with an application is terrible. You can't even lock your PC if the Windows Key is taken over, unless you mouse over to Start and click three times. The Keyboard Shortcut uses the Windows key. It's not out of the realm of possibility that someone may want to lock their screen while DP is the active application... Or minimize everything to the desktop (Win-D). Or Open a File Explorer Windows (Win-E). Or Maximize (Win-Up) or Restore (Win-Down) an Application.

Most Accessibility Tools on the Windows OS are accessed using the keyboard shortcuts involving the Windows Key... Do you not see how this is a horrible idea?

There is a reason why NO OTHER DEVELOPER uses teh Windows Key for application shortcuts, and the only utilities that lock it are the Function-Win combo in some [gaming] keyboards and gaming presentation utilities that incorporate the function to avoid the user "windowing out" of a full screen task.

There are like 30+ system level global key commands in the OS that use that key. The key is used by the OS precisely to AVOID CLASHING WITH THIRD PARTY APPLICATION SHORTCUTS. By doing this, MOTU has basically designed their DAW to break the system whenever it is in focus.

It should be reserved for Windows, not taken hostage by applications. This is a horrible application design. 100% Broken by Design.

Your statement is nice - in theory - but this isn't the opening up of additional keyboard shortcuts. This seems like lazy porting from macOS to Windows. Because Windows Keyboards do not have a Command Key, MOTU seems to have decided to treat the Windows Key as if it functioned equivalently to Command on macOS; and merely replacing Command in the Key bindings with WinKey when they ported it over to Windows.

They did this with no thought being put to what the ramifications would be to the usability and accessibility of the user's system when their application is in focus.

That's without even getting to the complete disregard for standard key bindings for basic operations on the platform.

Tiny fonts, but literally blocks the Windows System shortcut for the Magnifier. How ironic.


----------



## Trensharo

Dewdman42 said:


> chunks and other unique features of DP add up to WAY more then you are making out of that mole hill. As I said you can solve your keyboard frustration with Keyboard Maestro.


How does Keyboard Maestro help a Windows user?

Are you even keeping up with the recent posts in this thread?


----------



## dterry

Trensharo said:


> How you use your PC is your prerogative, but WinKey is used in a ton of basic global keyboard shortcuts. Taking over it with an application is terrible. You can't even lock your PC if the Windows Key is taken over, unless you mouse over to Start and click three times. The Keyboard Shortcut uses the Windows key. It's not out of the realm of possibility that someone may want to lock their screen while DP is the active application... Or minimize everything to the desktop (Win-D). Or Open a File Explorer Windows (Win-E). Or Maximize (Win-Up) or Restore (Win-Down) an Application.
> 
> Most Accessibility Tools on the Windows OS are accessed using the keyboard shortcuts involving the Windows Key... Do you not see how this is a horrible idea?
> 
> There is a reason why NO OTHER DEVELOPER uses teh Windows Key for application shortcuts, and the only utilities that lock it are the Function-Win combo in some [gaming] keyboards and gaming presentation utilities that incorporate the function to avoid the user "windowing out" of a full screen task.
> 
> There are like 30+ system level global key commands in the OS that use that key. The key is used by the OS precisely to AVOID CLASHING WITH THIRD PARTY APPLICATION SHORTCUTS. By doing this, MOTU has basically designed their DAW to break the system whenever it is in focus.
> 
> It should be reserved for Windows, not taken hostage by applications. This is a horrible application design. 100% Broken by Design.
> 
> Your statement is nice - in theory - but this isn't the opening up of additional keyboard shortcuts. This seems like lazy porting from macOS to Windows. Because Windows Keyboards do not have a Command Key, MOTU seems to have decided to treat the Windows Key as if it functioned equivalently to Command on macOS; and merely replacing Command in the Key bindings with WinKey when they ported it over to Windows.
> 
> They did this with no thought being put to what the ramifications would be to the usability and accessibility of the user's system when their application is in focus.
> 
> That's without even getting to the complete disregard for standard key bindings for basic operations on the platform.
> 
> Tiny fonts, but literally blocks the Windows System shortcut for the Magnifier. How ironic.


If you dislike DP so much, just use something else. Why waste time complaining about something you obviously despise and can't change? Despite what you might assume, a 4th modifier key does in fact increase the key command options to twice the total number of key commands possible with ctrl, alt and shift.

MOTU hasn't broken anything. Windows works just fine. Yes, I do see how some would be put out by losing their Windows shortcuts, but I guess it depends on what you spend most of your time doing. Once I open a DAW, I rarely need to OS shortcuts. Too busy working. Seriously. It isn't much different for Mac users. The cmd key is used by DP there too, and they've been just fine for years. 

Yes, MOTU did use the Win key to replace the command/Apple key, otherwise the Win version of DP would not be compatible with the Mac version, and require a completely new set of default key commands. DP10 and 11 allow you to resize the GUI. Search for it in the manual. There is also a preference to resize some fonts. Both work fine. Some text is still small - a long time complaint, and not one likely to change anytime soon. DP may need a GUI rebuild, but the Cmd/Win key is an asset for those who use it daily. If you don't like it, that's just fine, but you really should find another DAW.


----------



## Dewdman42

Trensharo said:


> How does Keyboard Maestro help a Windows user?
> 
> Are you even keeping up with the recent posts in this thread?


There are similar utilities for windows. even free ones.


----------



## ka00

Trensharo said:


> How you use your PC is your prerogative, but WinKey is used in a ton of basic global keyboard shortcuts. Taking over it with an application is terrible. You can't even lock your PC if the Windows Key is taken over, unless you mouse over to Start and click three times. The Keyboard Shortcut uses the Windows key. It's not out of the realm of possibility that someone may want to lock their screen while DP is the active application... Or minimize everything to the desktop (Win-D). Or Open a File Explorer Windows (Win-E). Or Maximize (Win-Up) or Restore (Win-Down) an Application.
> 
> Most Accessibility Tools on the Windows OS are accessed using the keyboard shortcuts involving the Windows Key... Do you not see how this is a horrible idea?
> 
> There is a reason why NO OTHER DEVELOPER uses teh Windows Key for application shortcuts, and the only utilities that lock it are the Function-Win combo in some [gaming] keyboards and gaming presentation utilities that incorporate the function to avoid the user "windowing out" of a full screen task.
> 
> There are like 30+ system level global key commands in the OS that use that key. The key is used by the OS precisely to AVOID CLASHING WITH THIRD PARTY APPLICATION SHORTCUTS. By doing this, MOTU has basically designed their DAW to break the system whenever it is in focus.
> 
> It should be reserved for Windows, not taken hostage by applications. This is a horrible application design. 100% Broken by Design.
> 
> Your statement is nice - in theory - but this isn't the opening up of additional keyboard shortcuts. This seems like lazy porting from macOS to Windows. Because Windows Keyboards do not have a Command Key, MOTU seems to have decided to treat the Windows Key as if it functioned equivalently to Command on macOS; and merely replacing Command in the Key bindings with WinKey when they ported it over to Windows.
> 
> They did this with no thought being put to what the ramifications would be to the usability and accessibility of the user's system when their application is in focus.
> 
> That's without even getting to the complete disregard for standard key bindings for basic operations on the platform.
> 
> Tiny fonts, but literally blocks the Windows System shortcut for the Magnifier. How ironic.


Can’t you just quickly press Alt + Tab to switch to any other app and then use your Win shortcuts to do whatever other thing you wanted to do while using DP?


----------



## Trensharo

ka00 said:


> Can’t you just quickly press Alt + Tab to switch to any other app and then use your Win shortcuts to do whatever other thing you wanted to do while using DP?


No. Because some shortcuts are used to bring other applications like File Explorer over the active application etc.

Alt tabbing out is completely missing the point. Why even care, at that point. The point of using the shortcut is to speed up workflow, not slow it down. Your workaround is worse than. Reaching for the mouse to click an icon on the taskbar (which there are also WinKey shortcuts for, BTW).

I can pretty much operate a Windows PC without a mouse, except when DP is in focus. 

And I will always try the shortcut first, because NO other application does this, and its what I've been doing for 25+ years. That key does not exist to be used by third party applications in this way.

Like I said, it renders any machine inaccessible when DP is in focus. It completelt nerfs usability by forcing you to reach for a mouse or constantly bounce the app out and into focus.

Do people here even use a Windows machine at all, or beyond basic proficiency. Serious question. I'm wondering if these are Mac users giving "workarounds" without knowing how this actually feels to use or affects usability on the host system.

Do they block global Command Key access on macOS when the DAW is in focus?


----------



## Dewdman42

I don't use a PC with a windows key, I don't think I've ever owned a PC with a windows key. So I'm not sure why MOTU would be using the windows key for its own commands. I don't have a way right now to test it out so I can only go on the words of Trensharo, but it does sound like, on the surface, MOTU may have used some system level key command modifiers they shouldn't have. I would suggest writing a pleasant letter to MOTU on this point.

@Trensharo, have you tried modifying your DP key commands to avoid conflict with the windows key? Just go into the commands dialog and change all the conflicting key commands. ??


----------



## dts_marin

Dewdman42 said:


> chunks and other unique features of DP add up to WAY more then you are making out of that mole hill. As I said you can solve your keyboard frustration with Keyboard Maestro.


Many UI elements are impossible to automate reliably without resorting to pixel search which is slow. For example the track color popup.

I've automated a lot of stuff with AutoHotKey and Keyboard Maestro in DP (love MacOS but Apple doesn't think I'm worthy of having a desktop Mac so I'm forced to use a PC)

I have no issues with using KM or AHK but there is a lot o functionality that should have keyboard access. 

The Articulation Map Setup window for example. Try recording the time it takes to create the same expression map in Studio One and then in DP. You will quickly realize that Presonus did their homework and mapped all the crucial controls to the keyboard resulting in a blazing fast workflow.


----------



## Dewdman42

Too bad S1 is so limited in other ways hehe


----------



## dterry

dts_marin said:


> The Articulation Map Setup window for example. Try recording the time it takes to create the same expression map in Studio One and then in DP. You will quickly realize that Presonus did their homework and mapped all the crucial controls to the keyboard resulting in a blazing fast workflow.


Search the key commands window for "Articulation Map Setup", and assign whatever key command you like. 

Studio One vs DP: Try assigning program changes to trigger articulations in Studio One. Not supported as of 5.4 (hopefully Presonus will add this eventually). I use program changes exclusively as there are far more available than free keys, especially for libraries like VSL's Synchron series.

I've compared Cubase, DP, ProTools and Studio One with identical templates many times. Each has at least a few advantages over the other three, but Nuendo/Cubase and DP hit the most marks for film scoring (I don't have Logic to compare, but obviously it is also very popular).

Studio One is fine for basic templates, but scrolling through tracks becomes too sluggish with larger templates. S1's articulation mapping from imports and tree-layout is a bit of a visual mess. DP's is much easier to read. Also, DP supports dragging articulation triggers between articulation lanes. Nuendo/Cubase do not (I don't remember if S1 does). Also, no surround in S1. That's a serious limitation for me. Studio One has a lot of great features, but it's interface (especially the track inspector/left side) has some quick-visibility problems.


----------



## Trensharo

I really like their implementation of editing articulations in DP11. It's probably the best implementation that I've used thus far (out of Cubase, Logic, Studio One and DP).

The Articulation Map editor is also one the best one I've used.

I don't like how some of the tooltips below the MIDI Editor run off the screen when you're trying to figure out what those checkboxes do. They're unreasonable. Have to resize the DAW window to see them if you're using it maximized.


----------



## dts_marin

dterry said:


> Search the key commands window for "Articulation Map Setup", and assign whatever key command you like. Try assigning program changes and delays to articulation triggers in Studio One. I use program changes exclusively as there are far more available than free keys, especially for libraries like VSL's Synchron series.
> 
> I've compared Cubase, DP, ProTools and Studio One with identical templates many times. Each has at least a few advantages over the other three, but only Nuendo/Cubase and DP really hit all of the marks for film scoring.
> 
> Studio One is fine for basic templates, but becomes too sluggish with larger templates. S1's articulation mapping from imports is a bit of a visual mess. DP's is much easier to read. Also, DP's articulation lanes support dragging articulations between lanes, Nuendo/Cubase do not (I don't remember if S1 does). Also, no surround in S1. That's a serious limitation for me.


I don't really care about other features in this case. The only thing I compared was the speed of creating expression maps which is really impacted by the omission of the keyboard.

Please try creating an expression map in S1. During almost the entire process your hands don't need to leave the keyboard. Advancing to the next articulation, changing its remote trigger and output parameters all done via the keyboard.

Now do the same in DP feel the resistance and the constant need to reach for the mouse to navigate. So slow in comparison.


----------



## dterry

Trensharo said:


> I don't like how some of the tooltips below the MIDI Editor run off the screen when you're trying to figure out what those checkboxes do. They're unreasonable. Have to resize the DAW window to see them if you're using it maximized.


That's worth filing a Techlink with MOTU support. I reported the tool box menus being cutoff in an earlier version of DP11, and they fixed that, but tool tips are still hidden. That should be fixed. Most of us probably run DP or any DAW maximized.


----------



## dterry

dts_marin said:


> I don't really care about other features in this case. The only thing I compared was the speed of creating expression maps which is really impacted by the omission of the keyboard.
> 
> Please try creating an expression map in S1. During almost the entire process your hands don't need to leave the keyboard. Advancing to the next articulation, changing its remote trigger and output parameters all done via the keyboard.
> 
> Now do the same in DP feel the resistance and the constant need to reach for the mouse to navigate. So slow in comparison.


I did. The tree structure is a mess. I get the idea, but visually it is terrible for articulations. 

But that was all moot point since S1 didn't support program changes. I did create key switch maps just to compare, and S1 is fine once setup - not my favorite though.

Efficient setup windows are great, if they are needed frequently. And S1 does a lot of things right when it comes to navigation - such as highlighting the most relevant entry field, or tabbing through a setup window (good, but limited when adding tracks). 

However, I generally setup articulation maps once for my VEP host/slave setup. If we were to compare the fastest for setting up templates, ProTools would win hands down for complete key command/modifier access to adding multiple tracks at once, and then routing multiple tracks as well. In my comparisons, PT beat all of them for speed of setting up a large template for that feature alone. S1 has some of this, but it is still far behind PT. Of course that gain is obviously lost when pitting PT's limited midi editing.

If S1 works great for you - awesome. I do like S1 in general, but it is still missing too much to beat out either Nuendo or DP for scoring, for me at least. Speed really comes down to the whole package - not just setting up a template - first note of sketching ideas, to stems delivery.


----------



## Dewdman42

Another thing I really like about DP's articulation management...if you are smart about how you name your articulations, you can literally copy and paste notes, phrases or regions from one track to a completely different track using a completely different instrument and articulation map (but with smartly named articulations) and DP will automatically apply the old articulations in the right way. I don't think ANY of the other DAW'S can do that. Also...DP is alone I offering per-articulation latency management.

In the past many people have complained incessantly about the terrible articulation map editors in LogicPro and Cubase...I think MOTU did a much better job then those two. S1 users love to brag about workflow efficiencies in S1 and they aren't entirely wrong, S1 is a relatively new DAW and many smart things were done in it, but I also find it to pretty much always coming up short-of-full on professional duties. It always seems to offer only 75% of what the big long standing power players offer....good enough for writing songs and more simple tasks, but simply falling way short of the others for large projects and certain kinds of situations.. But it does have great drag and drop workflows, and apparently you can touch type your articulation maps in via the keyboard..cool...but still...overall it simply cannot compete for some heavy duty scenarios. I did not upgrade my S1 v4 and will not be upgrading it any time soon. For me, S1 is more like a toy for hobbyists. Why are we talking about S1 on this thread about DP? DP offers way more power then S1, its not even close to the same league.


----------



## dts_marin

dterry said:


> I did. The tree structure is a mess. I get the idea, but visually it is terrible for articulations.
> 
> But that was moot point since S1 didn't support program changes. I did create key switch maps just to compare, and S1 is fine once setup - not my favorite though.
> 
> Efficient setup windows are great, if they are needed frequently. However, I generally setup articulation maps once for my VEP host/slave setup. If we were to compare the fastest for setting up templates, ProTools would win hands down for complete key command/modifier access to adding multiple tracks at once, and then routing multiple tracks as well. S1 has some of this, but it is still far behind PT. But that gain is obviously lost when editing midi in PT, if you can call it that.
> 
> If S1 works great for you - awesome. I do like S1 in general, but it is still missing too much to beat out either Nuendo or DP for scoring, for me at least.


No S1 doesn't work for me that's why I use DP. Again, too much unrelated info. 

I only care about how DP loses efficiency because many dialogs and sub menus aren't keyboard friendly. That's all. No missing surround in S1 etc. That's not the issue. I have all of that in DP. 

The comparison was made to illustrate my point on why working with the keyboard on repetitive tasks is faster than using the mouse.

Nothing wrong with DP. I use it, I prefer against others.


----------



## AEF

dts_marin said:


> You might not have understood what I said here. Of course the provided keyboard shortcuts are configurable. The problem with DP is that a LOT of actions can't be accessed without a mouse which slows things considerably. e.g. you want to change track color? You need to click. You want to edit articulation maps you need to click...
> 
> Studio One and Reaper are far better and put a lot of the actions accessible via keyboard or their respective macro editor or action window which opens possibilities for efficient automation of tasks.


You can create a key command for articulation map setup. Or press shift enter and type in whatever you want. 

There are no macros, true, but I dont find it any more or less click based than any other daw if you create your own key bindings.


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## Trensharo

AEF said:


> You can create a key command for articulation map setup. Or press shift enter and type in whatever you want.
> 
> There are no macros, true, but I dont find it any more or less click based than any other daw if you create your own key bindings.


DP feels like the MIDI-focused brother of Samplitude Pro X. It's definitely more click based than something like Studio One, Cakewalk, or Cubase as those DAWs either were designed with a focus on mouse-heavy usage, or got UX do-overs to accommodate this. DP feels like it was designed for computers without a mouse.

Yes, you can navigate the UI, Menus, and Context Menus with a mouse... But, when you're used to dragging Virtual Instruments, FX, etc. around and just dropping them to allow the DAW to do what takes 3 clicks and a menu dive in DP - CONSTANTLY - you feel this.

I don't feel like it is as efficient to use as something like Studio One, unless you learn the keyboard shortcuts and employ them religiously. The issue with that - from a Windows user's perspective - is that even the most basic File/Edit/View/Window Management operations have ported over macOS keyboard shortcuts. So, there is no shortcut. Even the basics are going to be relatively foreign.

I think the average person can pick up Cubase and get by just fine, while having decent-enough productivity. I don't think this is possible with Digital Performer. I think that may work to its disadvantage. The software may frustrate people before they can even start making music with it, while trying a trial version or something... The market is oversaturated with DAWs, these days.

I actually think that's kind of fine, though. Different software is different. I do think Samplitude was easier to use, even with the click and keyboard heavy UX due to the fact that it uses a lot of Standard Windows shortcuts, so a lot of the basics of using the application were relatively intuitive.

Digital Performer on Windows is a culture shock :-P

Using it on a laptop (being on vacation), I think it runs well and it's fine. Some of the text in the UI is very small, though. My eyesight is great, but I can see others completely shrugging it off for Accessibility reasons. The list fonts can be scaled, but there is a LOT of text in the UI that is miniscule. If you're using a laptop screen smaller than 15.6", it will be rough going with that!

The feature set is amazing. The DAW is very deep and equally broad. It's great for video work, and it supports surround without forcing you to upgrade to a $999-3,500 Product SKU (Nuendo, Pro Tools | Ultimate, Sequoia), though it doesn't do Atmos (AFAIK... yet?).

The MIDI Editing is good. The Audio Editing is good. The score editor is better than that of Cubase - but it, sadly, doesn't import MusicXML (though importing the MIDI seems fine; track names and everything carry over, but no articulations will). The Articulation Maps and Editing are better than Cubase, Studio One and Cakewalk. Everything seems great. The packaging is just a bit old-fashioned.

The way tracks are handled is kind of fine. If I think of Instrument Tracks as instruments in the Cubase VST Rack, it makes more sense - or at least removes one layer from consideration. The only gotcha is that the instrument audio outs have to go to "AUX Tracks." "Audio Tracks" won't do.


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## Pat Maddox

I'm new to DP. There's a lot that I like about it so far, but I'm also getting hung up on something really simple.

99% of the time when I record MIDI, it drops the first note. I have count-in and metronome enabled for recording. I strongly suspect I'm playing a few milliseconds before recording actually begins. On other DAWs I've used, they recognize that initial note and place it at the very start of recording. DP on the other hand drops it entirely, as if I'd never played it. My solutions are to a) consciously try to play a bit later than the initial downbeat b) if I played it a bit early and it dropped the note, go back and write it in manually.

I've looked through the manual and searched online and haven't found anyone else reporting this sort of thing.

Is there a setting that would get DP to place that first note at 1.1.000 (or wherever I started recording), even if I play the MIDI note just slightly ahead?

DP 11.02 on MacOS 10.15.7, using an m-audio hammer 88 USB keyboard


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## JohnG

@Pat Maddox 

Not sure if I 100% understand what you're doing there, honestly, but one way is to have two bars free before the first note. I always put a couple of empty bars at the start of a piece and change the starting bar (the empty bars) to -1 and 0. That way if you're slightly early, it's there.

In addition, you might try using "Input Quantize" -- IDK if that will help or not but it's available.


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## Pat Maddox

I'd like to be able to use punch recording for the specific measures I'm working on, and not always have to start recording a measure early. REAPER will recognize that first note even if the note on comes just a bit ahead of the punch-in point. Maybe DP can't do that though, and I'll just have to start recording earlier than I want.

Something is definitely weird though, because sometimes it will throw the first note into the future. In the attached screenshot, the second clip (~bar 30) is a super short version of the first note I played.

Here's a video demonstrating the behavior. The second time I record in DP11, I intentionally play a bit early - and you can see that it creates a clip in the future. In the Reaper example, the "thunk" at the beginning is when I strike the keyboard early - and Reaper doesn't actually even play the note until recording begins. This weird behavior is definitely a thing to send to tech support. I'm just not sure if DP11 can even do the thing where it records the note even if it plays early. I haven't seen anyone else online report this, so either it can't do that and nobody cares, or it doesn't drop the first note on other people.


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## Trensharo

JohnG said:


> @Pat Maddox
> 
> Not sure if I 100% understand what you're doing there, honestly, but one way is to have two bars free before the first note. I always put a couple of empty bars at the start of a piece and change the starting bar (the empty bars) to -1 and 0. That way if you're slightly early, it's there.
> 
> In addition, you might try using "Input Quantize" -- IDK if that will help or not but it's available.


I thought this was fairly standard, so that one can set controller and such at the beginning of the sequence. I remember watching a Guy Michelmore video about this a while back, when he was using DP, and I've been doing it ever since - regardless of what DAW I was using.


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## JohnG

Pat Maddox said:


> I'd like to be able to use punch recording for the specific measures I'm working on, and not always have to start recording a measure early.


I see. Why not just duplicate the midi track and record the punch on the second track? 

I can’t remember the last time I used punch record for midi.

I view punch recording as an audio thing, primarily. For that I usually have the players start playing a bar or two before the actual punch so that if there are any ring-outs or sustained notes it works. However, with live playing, punch record does rely on the players being on the beat.


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## Al Maurice

@Pat Maddox -- I've just been working on a specific measure, and instead of using punch record you can use DP's link to memory feature. Just click on auto record (and auto stop if you wish), then select the region where you plan to record (red bar) on the timeline. Place the wiper ahead and hit record. You can even add in a 2 bar or so ahead if you want too. This works with clips as well.


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## Pat Maddox

JohnG said:


> I always put a couple of empty bars at the start of a piece and change the starting bar (the empty bars) to -1 and 0. That way if you're slightly early, it's there.


If I add a blank bar at the beginning:

1) how do I get the measure numbers to show as the normal 1 / 9 / 17 they would be if I didn't have a blank bar when zooming out?

2) how do I handle the blank bar when using Sequences in a Song? I want Sequences to flow into one another, but they don't if I have a blank measure at the beginning


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## JohnG

Hi @Pat Maddox 

You can change the bar number start using a pull-down menu that appears in the upper left 'main' counter window. The pull-down menu is just to the left of the time signature (3/4 or 4/4 or whatever). Using that pull-down, select "Set Chunk Start Time." [moreover, if you're working with film, this is where you change the start time so you can match the time code of the picture.]

I don't know the best answer to your second question since I don't write songs much and, consequently, don't use that function. IDK if there's an offset or the ability to choose a bar other than the first one.

Maybe someone else can chime in?

Kind regards,

John


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## Pat Maddox

I got a suggestion from the MOTU forum that does exactly what I want:



> Maybe try using the Wait button (finger pressing a key) in conjunction with the Countoff. It gives you a continuous countoff until you hit a note which will immediately be placed at 1.1.000 and continues from there.


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## Trensharo

So. I'm home now. More problems.

1. Different plug-ins will not show up in DP unless I completely reinstall them from scratch. Komplete Kontrol, Massive X, etc. I have too many plug-ins to deal with this. This will literally take hours to go through to make sure everything is there.

2. Doesn't work with my M-Audio interface.


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## Al Maurice

Yes the plugin conundruum: where do you begin.

To make some of my plugins to work, took me two tries: i). turn most off with disable all, then activate the ones I needed with an alternative profile. Like you adding some of those with various presets didn't work or show up, unless I opted for the VST2 versions and then, ii). I tried the other approach start with most, letting DP find those on my drives, then turning off the ones I didn't want. Not the best but at least then the likes of Zebra 2 operated without appear as an effect as a VST3.


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## Dewdman42

You certainly seem to be having a lot of problems with your system. You might be able to get more help on these problems from MOTU tech support or possibly the motunation forum (knock on wood)

The only problem I had with DP11 was during the initial plugin scanning phase, which I eventually found a work around and got through that phase, and its been smooth sailing ever since, including every time it has needed to scan plugins.


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## Dewdman42

are you guys with disappearing plugins...both using DP on windows? Just curious...

If it were me, I probably would not have actually paid for DP, expecting to run it on windows. I mean...I have it now...and if I happen to have a PC I would try it...but if I were PC only and deciding what to buy.......I would be either Cubase or.... well just Cubase hehehe.. I personally do not have high confidence in DP on windows, just from stories like this... It just hasn't been vetted enough yet.


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## Dewdman42

ok well good luck. I suggest MOTU tech support from here.


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## Trensharo

Eh... They're now asking me to install ASIO4ALL on my PC, so this is where I'm going to dip out. I don't regret the purchase as I stated (way) earlier in the thread that I would make it if they ran a promotion on the cross grade. I'm more peeved about the time sink in troubleshooting this software has enforced onto me than the cost of obtaining it.


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## waveheavy

José Herring said:


> Was going to ask this. Does it work on windows 10 well? I've been eyeing the switch back to DP for a while as well. I qualify for the upgrade but not sure if I want to go down the Mac rabbit whole right now especially with the big change coming.


Best to stay away if you're a Windows user. 

I tried DP9 and DP10 on Windows 7, and I couldn't even record a live guitar track into it (using my UA Apollo Twin)! I asked support about it and they made all these suggestions like I was some stupid teenager, and eventually just shrugged me off. 

It's apparent, and obvious, they don't care about Windows, so really they are guilty of 'false advertisement' and very easily could lose a class action lawsuit if enough Windows customers got together and did something about it.


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## Trensharo

EDIT: I went ahead and replaced the Audio Interface, and I'm not happy about it.


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## machinesworking

Trensharo said:


> EDIT: I went ahead and replaced the Audio Interface, and I'm not happy about it.


 I'm one of those people that just bit the bullet and bought RME years ago, guaranteed to work with pretty much everything. You mentioned that some software instruments show up as audio/aux effects in DP11 and that seems to be some strange behavior with VSTi3 plug ins that can receive audio input on both mac and pc.


It actually works though, instantiate a VSTi3 that only shows up in the audio/aux tracks on an Aux track (low to no latency compared to on an audio track), assign a bus or audio in to the input, then point a MIDI track to that VSTi3, works even if it seems strange. It's some sort of thing with VST3 specifically from what I can tell, at least that's the case on Mac OS.


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## Trensharo

machinesworking said:


> I'm one of those people that just bit the bullet and bought RME years ago, guaranteed to work with pretty much everything. You mentioned that some software instruments show up as audio/aux effects in DP11 and that seems to be some strange behavior with VSTi3 plug ins that can receive audio input on both mac and pc.


I think this may be a case of either MOTU's Audio Engine bugging out, or M-Audio's driver having some issue that is triggered by MOTU's Audio Engine. It could also be some weird issue with compatibility re: M-Audio's driver and Windows 11.

I sent in a support ticket to M-Audio, but they never respond to those, so I think I'm going to avoid buying anything from that brand, moving forwards. I had kind of decided that after issues I had with a MIDI Controller from them (they never responded to any support tickets, beyond the initial automated response). This definitely fast tracks that.

I did get Neutron 3 Compressor VST2 to show up.


machinesworking said:


> It actually works though, instantiate a VSTi3 that only shows up in the audio/aux tracks on an Aux track (low to no latency compared to on an audio track), assign a bus or audio in to the input, then point a MIDI track to that VSTi3, works even if it seems strange. It's some sort of thing with VST3 specifically from what I can tell, at least that's the case on Mac OS.


That's good to know. I'll have to try that. That being said, I kind of want the Instrument on an Instrument Track so that I can move it to a V-Rack in my Template... I'm really digging that feature.

One pet peeve I have is this bloated plug-in menu, due to them listing every channel configuration a virtual instrument supports.


----------



## machinesworking

> I think this may be a case of either MOTU's Audio Engine bugging out, or M-Audio's driver having some issue that is triggered by MOTU's Audio Engine. It could also be some weird issue with compatibility re: M-Audio's driver and Windows 11.
> 
> I sent in a support ticket to M-Audio, but they never respond to those, so I think I'm going to avoid buying anything from that brand, moving forwards. I had kind of decided that after issues I had with a MIDI Controller from them (they never responded to any support tickets, beyond the initial automated response). This definitely fast tracks that.


M-Audio are the other Bheringer. Just a mediocre company at best. I had an old PCI card from them that work but always produced a serious pop noise when the Mac started up, they told me that's how it is... so dumb.... I helped a friend instal a USB driver for a M-Audio audio interface on Windows, it was a total shit show, three trys to instal later it finally authorized after about two hours of messing with it. To be fair the Midisport from them wasn't bad.


> I did get Neutron 3 Compressor VST2 to show up.
> 
> That's good to know. I'll have to try that. That being said, I kind of want the Instrument on an Instrument Track so that I can move it to a V-Rack in my Template... I'm really digging that feature.


You can host Aux tracks in V-Racks, another reason to take weird VST3 plug ins that need to load into Audio or Aux tracks and load them as Aux tracks. Remember you need to throw a bus on the audio input to get the VSTi3 to show up in your input selection etc.


> One pet peeve I have is this bloated plug-in menu, due to them listing every channel configuration a virtual instrument supports.


I hear you, I never use the drop down menu for that reason, I always instantiate an unassigned instrument and double click for the dedicated plug in browser, it's just a better experience in every way. On a Mac you have AU, VST2, VST3, and the various output versions for VST, so it's just much easier to deal with the pop up window VS the tree view inline selection which doesn't tell you what format the plug in is using, so no VST2 VS 3 VS AU etc.


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## Al Maurice

Can anyone tell how to get alternative outputs to be redirected from Halion for an alternative microphone/signal?

Currently I seem to only be able to route the main out, and all microphones only are audible through that.


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## machinesworking

Al Maurice said:


> Can anyone tell how to get alternative outputs to be redirected from Halion for an alternative microphone/signal?
> 
> Currently I seem to only be able to route the main out, and all microphones only are audible through that.


Personally O have no idea what you’re asking. Do you want to route Halion to separate outs on a hardware audio interface or are you asking about bussing?


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## machinesworking

BTW both issues can be solved using the Bundles window


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## Al Maurice

machinesworking said:


> BTW both issues can be solved using the Bundles window


Thanks I meant the busses, Kontakt I found previously is much more straightforward.

It seems that on Halion as stereo pairs the nos of the outs don't reflect those in bundles, so:

out2 = channels 2,3
out3 = channels 4,5
out4 = channels 6,7

I'll have to see what happens when they are in mono.

Not everything as it seems.

As usual it comes down to trial and error.


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## machinesworking

Al Maurice said:


> Thanks I meant the busses, Kontakt I found previously is much more straightforward.
> 
> It seems that on Halion as stereo pairs the nos of the outs don't reflect those in bundles, so:
> 
> out2 = channels 2,3
> out3 = channels 4,5
> out4 = channels 6,7
> 
> I'll have to see what happens when they are in mono.
> 
> Not everything as it seems.
> 
> As usual it comes down to trial and error.


Yeah I've never seen anything like a cohesive system from any DAW or any multi out plug in, in terms of that, sometimes it's much worse, I think it's Maschine(maybe? can't remember?) that reports out L/R then 1, 2, 3, inside the plug in, and no DAW I know of reports the outs as such in it's tracks. So every track is off by at least two numbers, out 1-2 from Maschine reports as out 3-4 in DP etc. it's, fun.


----------



## dts_marin

11.03 is out. Mostly bug fixes.


*Enhancements introduced in version 11.03


Enhancements and optimizations*


SetSelectionToRememberTimes, SetSelectionToMemory and SetSelectionToAutoRecord, only set the selection in already selected tracks, unless there is no selection.
When the track color is changed, update color sent to Softube plug-ins.
Improve responsiveness of pan control for Console 1 (VST3)
Improve timing coming out of count-off.
Improve audio - video time relationship.
Added a Transpose Exempt item to the Sequence Editor's Track Settings Menu for MIDI and Audio tracks.
Improved QuickScribe layout precision and rendering at non-integer zoom levels.
Optimized updating latency compensation in large projects with complex routing.
Improved QuickScribe glyph alignment on Windows.
UI optimizations to improve UI performance during playback, especially on Windows.
 • Updated to UVIWorkstation 3.1.3 (supports Apple Silicon natively).


*Fixes*

Fixed an issue with the VST3 support for Console 1, where send volume was not displayed correctly.
Fixed a possible crash in VST3 Console 1 support.
Fixed a crash due to multiple threads trying to translate midi.
Fix a Windows bug causing keyboard shortcuts including the Alt key to not respond in certain circumstances when the user presses alt as the first key in the key combination.
Fixed a bug where selecting multichannel events was inconsistent.
Fix a crash that could occur with certain configurations of tracks and V-Racks.
Fixed a hang that could occur when using external video hardware.
Disabled Metal in macOS 10.13.
Fixed track index display in Console 1 / VST3.
Fixed a bug where the 'Show/Hide Articulation Palette' command was always disabled.
Fixed a Mac-specific bug causing mouse scrolling not to respond in certain HTML-based windows.
Fixed a bug where changing a note's articulation would not update the event information window.
Fixed a crash when undoing a split note operation which results in a new track on a track with an articulation map.
Fixed a bug that could cause large projects to become unresponsive when opening QuickScribe for the first time.
Updated the offline resources panel to DP11 (previously had a few places where this incorrectly still said DP10).
Fixed the case where the first beat of countoff click could be late.
Mitigated a Windows visual glitch where the background of certain progress windows may fail to draw completely at certain UI scale values.
Fixed a bug where setting the buffer size via the control panel when using an ASIO driver was not working.
Fixed cases when enabling or disabling pre-gen mode across all tracks (Live Performance Mode, metronome mode, external sync, etc) to also include v-racks.
Fixed a crash when recording from a custom console after a previous record pass.
Fixed a Windows bug that could cause certain third-party plugin GUIs to become unresponsive during playback.
Fixed a bug causing the MCU Single Fader's track pinning to return incorrect tracks in certain project configurations involving nested folders.
Fixed a bug where peeking at midi note with the translator was incorrectly editing the internal translator data. This fixes the ghost notes bug.
Fixed a bug where Sound Bites in the Sequence Editor wouldn't listen to the Track Selector event filter.
Fixed a bug where a bad menu item was added the the Mixing Board mini menu every time the menu was displayed.
Fixed a bug where dragging clips with grid snapping would make it so that offset clips couldn't be moved to time 0, and where dragging without grid snapping could move clips before time 0.


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## CorgiKing

Nice to see the update! Everything has been great but I've def seen some of this pop up. I wonder if that Alt key fix somehow impacted Mac users with a similar sounding problem with Eucon shortcuts.


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## dts_marin

I'll check later if the Eucon soft keys work correctly now because IIRC I had an issue with those in 11.02 (MacOS).

I love these smaller and frequent updates. There are still a lot of embarrassing little bugs that shouldn't pass through the QA stage. e.g. when MacOS is set to Dark Mode some help tags display white text on a beige background (illegible).


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## machinesworking

About to run it through it's paces here. To be fair, I'm also running new updates to pretty much everything, M1 Air setup etc. and it's all going a lot smoother than expected!


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## CorgiKing

machinesworking said:


> About to run it through it's paces here. To be fair, I'm also running new updates to pretty much everything, M1 Air setup etc. and it's all going a lot smoother than expected!


Same. I'm 2 hours into it. Just reopened some pieces for a hefty client on a tight deadline. Zero problems so far!


----------



## JonS

JohnG said:


> @Pat Maddox
> 
> Not sure if I 100% understand what you're doing there, honestly, but one way is to have two bars free before the first note. I always put a couple of empty bars at the start of a piece and change the starting bar (the empty bars) to -1 and 0. That way if you're slightly early, it's there.
> 
> In addition, you might try using "Input Quantize" -- IDK if that will help or not but it's available.


I do the same thing!!


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## Trensharo

So, I updated...

1. EVEN MORE VST3 Plugins are failing the scan.
2. Had to spend 20 minutes getting others to show up in the plug-in chooser.
3. Komplete Kontrol disappears again. Can't seem to get it to show up this time.

I think I'm going to have to give up on this. Too much headaches, on an ongoing basis.

Can't rely on this software to work properly. I have to run this across two PCs. I cannot afford to use something that demands this level of time investment in troubleshooting problems.

How does this persist? It's practically impossible to not see this happening if they do any sort of testing before releasing builds.


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## CorgiKing

Back from a grueling first day with the latest release to report no problems with super super heavy pieces across a few projects. All of them referencing any of a number of VEP templates, the biggest being like 100+GB in RAM. Mostly composing straight MIDI work but a few bounces and routing things and a bit of recording too. Zero problems!


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## Trensharo

I've noticed some oddities:

*1.* What plug-ins pass or fail the scanner seem arbitrary. On my Laptop, RC48 VST3 fails the scan. On my Desktop, RC48 passes while RC24 fails. 3 IKM plug-ins that fails on my Laptop pass on my Desktop, while one that fails on the desktop passes on the laptop. Groove Agent 5 VST3 fails on the desktop, but passes on the laptop... Both machines are Ryzen platform.

The results on each PC seem to be fairly locked in place. Rescanning will not change them, nor will reinstalling the plug-in. The DAW just doesn't give consistent results across machines scanning the same revision/build of the same plugins.

This also means that you cannot rely on user feedback regarding what plug-ins may work on your machine wit the DAW, though you're probably safe if the developer distributes both VST3 and VST2.

*2.* Persistently "unavailable" plug-ins won't show up unless you reinstall them, period. Not sure why this works, or is necessary, but Komplete Kontrol is unusable unless I do a reinstall after DP is installed or updated - every single time (on both machines). If I removed DP and reinstalled it right now, KK wouldn't show up for user (though it will pass the scan and show up in the Plug-in settings) unless I also reinstalled it. I just tested this. Nothing else works - only a reinstallation. If I don't re-install, I can't use it. The End. Happened with a couple of other plug-ins as well. "Reinstall, or forget about it."

So, I feel like this is a DAW you have to treat like enterprise software. If there isn't some fix listed for a problem you're experiencing in the software in the patch notes... don't bother installing anything. Sit on the version you have until you must move off of it.

*3.* #2 can be problematic for plug-ins from companies that limit installations (e.g. Sonible) without persisting the registration across installations (i.e. deleting the registration if you uninstall before reinstalling the plug-in - as some people like to do to get a "clean reinstallation").

*4.* DP persists previous plug-in scan results across updates. This means that plug-ins that *actually *fail the scan in DP 11.03 will show as _passing _the scan if they were scanned in DP 11.02 and passed on that revision.

This can result in glitchiness if the plug-in is [in fact] problematic on the current revision. [Windows] Users probably should re-scan all of their plug-ins after updating so that they have accurate results there - both VST2 and VST3. If a failed VST3 was passed in DP 11.02, the new update will grandfather in the settings and that will be enabled in the new version (which would otherwise blacklist this plug-in if this were a fresh installation).


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## Al Maurice

Hi @Trensharo -- I'm sorry to hear about your experience with DP's plugin scanner.

When I first started using DP, much the same happened for me, some VSTs passed some didn't.

It took ages just to scan my plugins, and invariably many failed.

This changed after updating my spec. Now my machine is much more performant, and the plugins scan very rapidly and the success rate has increased many fold.


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## machinesworking

As a Mac user I've always found VST scans a little more problematic than AU. Not versed in the technical details 100% but these scans with choosers didn't start showing up until Apple introduced the AU scan at an OS level. To this day Ableton treats scanning as a thing they do without you involved, if a plug in fails the scan it either crashes the scan process or is skipped. I have definitely run into the errant VST that does just fine when failing examination, i.e. it fails but you can enable it and it works. Conversely I've run into VSTs that pass examination that have issues. Mostly though I think it speaks to the dumpster fire that VST3 is, no developer I've ever talked to likes it, and it causes more issues than it solves in DP and other DAWs. 

If I were in your shoes I would just enable all of the VSTs that you think are failing evaluation randomly, then mess with them in DP, in my experience most buggy VSTs aren't slightly buggy, so it's obvious in use.


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## dts_marin

Yeah DP's VST3 implementation is either very strict or very wrong or both. I also have a lot of issues with VST3 parameters that break when you change them with the mouse. You need to write automation manually to get the correct value.

Also there is the strange bug with VST3 instruments that accept both audio and MIDI signals. They won't work unless you add them to an aux track and then send MIDI to the instrument.


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## machinesworking

At least on Mac VST3s in general are a dumpster fire. The only hard crash of Reaper I've ever gotten was with a VST3, no real examination in Reaper. That same bug/"feature" is here. Aux tracks are where VST3i's that can send MIDI themselves live. So Reason Rack for instance.

Basically if you've followed the announcement of CLAP, the proposed new plug in format, you will see that it's in direct response to VST3 and Steinberg's forced dropping of VST2. It's taken over ten years for most, not all manufacturers to adopt VST3 because of what a mess it is. The industry has told us all we need to know about VST3, and how much it's loved... 

Look I'm not saying DP shouldn't have an easier to deal with plug in management system, (IMO it wouldn't take them much to make it better), but that being they need to adopt all the "latest" tech for VST evaluation, which probably comes from Steinberg, it's not too surprising it is the way it is on Windows. Hopefully in 5 years or so CLAP replaces them all, and gets a better acronym.


----------



## bdr

is there anyone that might have recordings of the webinars???


----------



## Trensharo

Al Maurice said:


> Hi @Trensharo -- I'm sorry to hear about your experience with DP's plugin scanner.
> 
> When I first started using DP, much the same happened for me, some VSTs passed some didn't.
> 
> It took ages just to scan my plugins, and invariably many failed.
> 
> This changed after updating my spec. Now my machine is much more performant, and the plugins scan very rapidly and the success rate has increased many fold.


My PCs’ performance is … not a factor.


----------



## dts_marin

bdr said:


> is there anyone that might have recordings of the webinars???


MOTU


----------



## Trensharo

machinesworking said:


> Look I'm not saying DP shouldn't have an easier to deal with plug in management system, (IMO it wouldn't take them much to make it better), but that being they need to adopt all the "latest" tech for VST evaluation, which probably comes from Steinberg, it's not too surprising it is the way it is on Windows. Hopefully in 5 years or so CLAP replaces them all, and gets a better acronym.


The issue isn't plug-in management. It's bad compatibility and reliably buggy behavior. I shouldn't have to reinstall Komplete Kontrol, Massive X, etc. for it to show up in DP.

Why does half of Neutron VST3 fail in DP, when they worked with 0 issues in every other A/V application on my systems?

Plug-ins pass or fail and this changes across even 0.01 version updates.

It gives no information as to why they've failed, so we can't even file a proper bug report with either MOTU or the plug-in developer. How is this supposed to be rectified? The entire system is a black box of guesses.

It still won't show Maschine 2, and I'm at the point where I am tired of reinstalling software just to get it to show up in DP, when it shows up in every other DAW, and even DaVinci Resolve Studio without issue. A video editor that runs virtual instruments better than your DAW. Embarassing.

The VST2 stuff is not as you put it. VST2 was deprecated several years ago. The only reason why we're still sitting on truckloads of VST2 plug-ins is because plug-in developers will do what they do - avoid extra work in lieu of developing more plug-ins to make money. They kept developing VST2 plug-ins, and they didn't bother to port many over to VST3.

Steinberg dropped the VST 2 SDK from Maintenance in Late 2013, and discontinued it in early-mid 2018.

Developers had a 4-5 year deprecation period, and a 3-4 year period where it was literally discontinued yet they still clung onto VST 2 licenses and shipped tons of plugins that were VST2-only in that same time frame.

CLAP isn't going to solve this issue. It's a developer culture issue. When CLAP 2 rolls around, they will find themselves in the same exact predicament. Developers will cling onto CLAP so that they can avoid doing maintenance development and, instead, focus on product development... and at some point they will have to drop CLAP 1 from Maintenance and Discontinue it. Because maintaining old shit isn't "free."

All companies and products face this. Microsoft had to discontinue XP at some point. Can't just keep supporting it for eternity. Same for Windows 7. Apple runs into the same issue, though it is a bit more aggressive with this than Microsoft (no Enterprise base to worry about).


----------



## Trensharo

Ehhh... I'm uninstalling DP and adding back Studio One.

I can't afford to waste anymore time on this.


----------



## Dewdman42

Good idea. DP is not for you.

At this point in time in 2021, I still heartily recommend using VST2 versions of plugins when they are available rather then the VST3. Overall the VST2 versions nearly always run more reliably. The only time I use VST3 version is for a couple of specific cases where VST3 features are being leveraged, such as multiple midi input ports in VePro7, for example. Otherwise...its VST2 all the way for me. 

VST2 developers continue to release VST2 plugins for very valid reasons, some hosts do not support VST3 hosting for example. VePro does not yet, for example. also VST3 does not handle midi properly..there are specific situations related to CC keyswitch handling that can be problematic with VST3 instruments due to design flaws in VST3 that are not present in VST2...just one example. VST2 is a much more simple and straightforward paradigm...so many small time developers would understandably rather just use that...it runs in more places and VST3 offers them nothing other then increased development cost.

An awful lot of developers are using tools like JUCE...which will let you build either VST2 or VST3 as a result...but...the interesting thing is that when you use JUCE you are still essentially using the VST2 paradigm...which means gaining nearly nothing that VST3 paradigm offers....simply producing a VST3 plugin that can be hosted as VST3, but the VST2 counterpart produced from the same JUCE code will do all the same stuff and run in more hosts.

VST2 is not technically deprecated. Even Cubase still supports it. And there are many sound reasons that developers have shied away from VST3 and will continue to do so... I really hope CLAP becomes a big thing to replace all forms of VST entirely forever...Steinberg was a poor steward for establishing a plugin standard.


----------



## Trensharo

Dewdman42 said:


> Good idea. DP is not for you.


Lulz. Or anyone using either of my computers?

I mean, sitting the CEO of MOTU in front of my systems will replicate the problems for him, as well. I'm pretty sure your reply to him wouldn't be "I guess DP just isn't for you."


Dewdman42 said:


> At this point in time in 2021, I still heartily recommend using VST2 versions of plugins when they are available rather then the VST3. Overall the VST2 versions nearly always run more reliably. The only time I use VST3 version is for a couple of specific cases where VST3 features are being leveraged, such as multiple midi input ports in VePro7, for example. Otherwise...its VST2 all the way for me.


Komplete Kontrol and Maschine 2 are VST2 Plug-ins. A bunch of VST2 IK Multimedia, iZotope and other plug-ins fail the scan. The Massive VST2 fails the scan.

I have 34 VST2 plug-ins that fail the scan when re-examining all of them - I just tested, seconds ago. Even more VST3 plug-ins fail the scan.

The issue with plug-ins isn't just what passes or fails. Aforementioned, if a VST3 fails this is non-factor if there is a VST2 version that passes and is installed. I ignore all of those failed plug-ins because I simply enable the alternative version and move on. That is not worth complaining about.

The big issue is that even when many plug-ins pass the scan - VST2 or VST3, cause it happens for both - the plug-in is not made accessible in Digital Performer. For some, I have to go through an entire re-installation in order for several plug-ins to show up. For others (like Maschine 2), there doesn't seem to be a way to make it accessible in DP, despite it passing the scan. Running a Reinstallation does not surface it in DP, despite it showing up in Cubase and Resolve, among others.

I have replicated this issue across two PCs. PC Power and "configuration" is not a factor. The VST Support - regardless of whether it's VST2 or VST3 - is broken. Period.

So, this isn't a matter of DP not being for me because I "prefer something different." *This is a matter of DP not being "for me" because I prefer to not use broken software applications that force me into a troubleshooting loop every time it decides that I'm not worthy of using the software I paid for, despite every other DAW I've tested (at least 5-6 others) not having a problem with these same software components.*

My workflow preferences have literally nothing to do with the broken state of this software (on Windows), and nothing you wrote in that reply has anything to do with the issues I'm dealing with. That diatribe about VST2 vs. VST3 is worthless minutiae.

I've already lost 8-10 hours to troubleshooting with this esoftware, in addition to additional money due to it not working properly with an ASIO driver that every other audio/video applciation on either of my systems have non issues with.

Do not project your discontent with my DP experience onto me.

Send it to MOTU, so that they fix the problems and more users don't have to deal with these issues.


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## Dewdman42

well since you are going to uninstall it and switch to Studio One it sounds like you will have a much better experience. Merry xmas and good luck.


----------



## dts_marin

To be honest DP isn't the most compelling choice for a general purpose DAW. For me it remains irreplaceable because of its film scoring workflow. Perhaps only Pro Tools Ultimate is a true alternative and I'm thankful I don't have to pay for it and DP exists. If I didn't work regularly with picture professionally, I'd choose another DAW immediately. 

I'm genuinely curious what were the features that made you try DP since it's not interchangeable with Studio One? It's not your fault, I'm not accusing you for anything. I feel sorry for your negative experience with DP.


----------



## machinesworking

Trensharo said:


> The issue isn't plug-in management. It's bad compatibility and reliably buggy behavior. I shouldn't have to reinstall Komplete Kontrol, Massive X, etc. for it to show up in DP.
> 
> Why does half of Neutron VST3 fail in DP, when they worked with 0 issues in every other A/V application on my systems?
> 
> Plug-ins pass or fail and this changes across even 0.01 version updates.
> 
> It gives no information as to why they've failed, so we can't even file a proper bug report with either MOTU or the plug-in developer. How is this supposed to be rectified? The entire system is a black box of guesses.
> 
> It still won't show Maschine 2, and I'm at the point where I am tired of reinstalling software just to get it to show up in DP, when it shows up in every other DAW, and even DaVinci Resolve Studio without issue. A video editor that runs virtual instruments better than your DAW. Embarassing.
> 
> The VST2 stuff is not as you put it. VST2 was deprecated several years ago. The only reason why we're still sitting on truckloads of VST2 plug-ins is because plug-in developers will do what they do - avoid extra work in lieu of developing more plug-ins to make money. They kept developing VST2 plug-ins, and they didn't bother to port many over to VST3.
> 
> Steinberg dropped the VST 2 SDK from Maintenance in Late 2013, and discontinued it in early-mid 2018.
> 
> Developers had a 4-5 year deprecation period, and a 3-4 year period where it was literally discontinued yet they still clung onto VST 2 licenses and shipped tons of plugins that were VST2-only in that same time frame.
> 
> CLAP isn't going to solve this issue. It's a developer culture issue. When CLAP 2 rolls around, they will find themselves in the same exact predicament. Developers will cling onto CLAP so that they can avoid doing maintenance development and, instead, focus on product development... and at some point they will have to drop CLAP 1 from Maintenance and Discontinue it. Because maintaining old shit isn't "free."
> 
> All companies and products face this. Microsoft had to discontinue XP at some point. Can't just keep supporting it for eternity. Same for Windows 7. Apple runs into the same issue, though it is a bit more aggressive with this than Microsoft (no Enterprise base to worry about).


You're wrong about pretty much everything you wrote here. Plug in developers have not adopted VST3 because it's a terrible platform compared to VST2, it's not due to laziness. They're literally developing their own platform in response to what they see as the failure of VST3, that's not laziness, that's flat rejection.


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## JohnG

Well, I use DP every day and it "runs good" on a Mac, and doesn't reject any of the libraries or plugins I own. As I've been accumulating those for decades, that covers some ground. I'm sure that other DAWs are good too.

As a top orchestrator said to me about choosing a notation program, "one's a red hammer, one's a blue hammer. Take your pick."


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## Trensharo

machinesworking said:


> You're wrong about pretty much everything you wrote here. Plug in developers have not adopted VST3 because it's a terrible platform compared to VST2, it's not due to laziness. They're literally developing their own platform in response to what they see as the failure of VST3, that's not laziness, that's flat rejection.


People developed Linux and KDE/GNOME and that really says nothing about the market rejecting Windows. I don't think that is a great argument.

Corporate Developer culture is what it is. I actually operate in that market, as a developer, so I know what it's like. I know what the conversations and meetings are like, and I know what choices management and product managers are more likely than not to take when faced with these decisions.

We never chose to upgrade back end stuff over developing new features we could sell for profits, unelss absolutely necessary, because money drives business. I've worked at enough companies, and did enough contract work in the development industry. This just doesn't happen on a general scale.

In 98.6% of cases, product managers will prioritize a few feature for the new version of the software over updating the plugin for VST3. They would only go there if they felt this was critical to sales momentum or user retention, and/or if they felt we couldn't develop enough other features to make an paid update worthwhile to users.

Corporate Developer culture is lazy when it comes to these things.

And VST3 is a better platform than VST2. Don't confuse the quality of the platform with the quality of the implementation by host and plug-in developers. That would be like saying Windows is a terrible platform simply because DP is terrible on Windows.

There is a lot of development kit (and platforms/platform revisions) that persisted well past its sale by date, and companies/developers refused to replace that stuff because the costs (both monetary and in developer man hours) required to do so didn't jive with the accounting they needed to continue to pull in profits (or operate with as little maintenance costs as possible).


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## machinesworking

Trensharo said:


> People developed Linux and KDE/GNOME and that really says nothing about the market rejecting Windows. I don't think that is a great argument.
> 
> Corporate Developer culture is what it is. I actually operate in that market, as a developer, so I know what it's like. I know what the conversations and meetings are like, and I know what choices management and product managers are more likely than not to take when faced with these decisions.
> 
> We never chose to upgrade back end stuff over developing new features we could sell for profits, unelss absolutely necessary, because money drives business. I've worked at enough companies, and did enough contract work in the development industry. This just doesn't happen on a general scale.
> 
> In 98.6% of cases, product managers will prioritize a few feature for the new version of the software over updating the plugin for VST3. They would only go there if they felt this was critical to sales momentum or user retention, and/or if they felt we couldn't develop enough other features to make an paid update worthwhile to users.
> 
> Corporate Developer culture is lazy when it comes to these things.
> 
> And VST3 is a better platform than VST2. Don't confuse the quality of the platform with the quality of the implementation by host and plug-in developers. That would be like saying Windows is a terrible platform simply because DP is terrible on Windows.
> 
> There is a lot of development kit (and platforms/platform revisions) that persisted well past its sale by date, and companies/developers refused to replace that stuff because the costs (both monetary and in developer man hours) required to do so didn't jive with the accounting they needed to continue to pull in profits (or operate with as little maintenance costs as possible).


 You're making a lot of assumptions here. I've listened to developers about VST3 for the last 10+ years, all of them to a one state that VST3 is vastly inferior to VST2. Not because they're lazy, but because Steinberg lost the plot entirely. Again starting a new plug in format in response is pretty much the exact opposite of lazy. You seem to be ignoring this, their response wasn't to stick to AU, AAX, and VST2, but to introduce a new platform. Nothing about that says lazy, or prioritizing new features over compatibility. The response to VST3 is unprecedented, AU, AAX etc. did not garner this reaction at all, and those were at first single DAW plug in formats. FXpansions main developer Angus has good insight on this sort of thing having developed a VST to AU wrapper for customers and developers alike years ago when AU first appeared. Fxpansion flatly stated VST3 was a vastly inferior format to VST2 and they would never support it. 
Obviously it's not going away, but I have no reason to deny, discredit or not listen to developers about VST3, I have seen zero benefit to the format, and it literally has had 10+ years to show it's superiority, which it flatly has failed to do, and it still isn't universally adopted. This is far more than just developers throwing a little tantrum about a new format.


----------



## Dewdman42

machinesworking said:


> Not because they're lazy, but because Steinberg lost the plot entirely. Again starting a new plug in format in response is pretty much the exact opposite of lazy. You seem to be ignoring this, their response wasn't to stick to AU, AAX, and VST2, but to introduce a new platform. Nothing about that says lazy, or prioritizing new features over compatibility. The response to VST3 is unprecedented, AU, AAX etc. did not garner this reaction at all, and those were at first single DAW plug in formats. FXpansions main developer Angus has good insight on this sort of thing having developed a VST to AU wrapper for customers and developers alike years ago when AU first appeared. Fxpansion flatly stated VST3 was a vastly inferior format to VST2 and they would never support it.
> Obviously it's not going away, but I have no reason to deny, discredit or not listen to developers about VST3, I have seen zero benefit to the format, and it literally has had 10+ years to show it's superiority, which it flatly has failed to do, and it still isn't universally adopted. This is far more than just developers throwing a little tantrum about a new format.



Accusations about laziness or tantrums are ridiculous it has nothing to do with anything here. All software developers have to weigh the costs of developing anything. Time = Money. if the benefits from doing development work can be justified they might do it if they have time. If not, they won't. Its as simple as that. Its just proper business analysis to determine the answer to that.

VST3 is orders of magnitude more complicated then VST2 and is so different that they might as well have given it a different name as an entirely new plugin format. It has very little resemblance to VST2 in how plugins are developed. Its not clear to me why Steinberg decided to make it so complicated other then some engineers got carried away with trying to abstract everything, which ultimately created more limitation, ironically. This is particularly true related to midi. I believe Steinberg made very little, perhaps no effort to actually come up with a true industry standard, they just wanted to update Cubase with new features and they stretched to a new plugin interface in order to facilitate those things such as Note Expression and multiple midi ports. The rest of the industry has mostly ignored VST3 ever since because it simply added more problems then it solved. 

It did fail to represent its superiority, if it had provided substantial benefits, by now everyone else in the business would have spent the development time to convert their projects to VST3 and use it. It would have been worth it. But simple truth it, it has not shown that to be the case, so after this many years....VST3 has just languished.

Steinberg is now trying to use strong arm tactics to force people to use it, but they will fail. CLAP will win. I have a good feeling about CLAP and I like very much that some respectable developers are getting on board with it, much better then I saw with LV2 which really went nowhere IMHO. I hope that CLAP will be simple enough and have better support and an easy enough translation that its just a matter of time until nearly every host out there will jump at the chance to use that instead of Steinberg's which has proven to be subject their their whim as it suits them for their own business objectives.


----------



## AlexRuger

Are there any tools that help with transferring a codebase from VST2 -> VST3?


----------



## AlexRuger

Dewdman42 said:


> CLAP will win.


Honestly I'm afraid that the name alone will keep it from winning.


----------



## machinesworking

AlexRuger said:


> Are there any tools that help with transferring a codebase from VST2 -> VST3?


 Not that I know of. Like I mentioned FXpansion did the work to help port VST2 to AU for developers and even a stop gap converter for end users back in the day. That same company has gone off in the past about how terrible they think VST3 is, and refuse to support it with their own plug ins, Cypher 2, Geist and Strobe 2.


----------



## machinesworking

Dewdman42 said:


> and I like very much that some respectable developers are getting on board with it, much better then I saw with LV2 which really went nowhere IMHO. I hope that CLAP will be simple enough and have better support and an easy enough translation that its just a matter of time until nearly every host out there will jump at the chance to use that instead of Steinberg's which has proven to be subject their their whim as it suits them for their own business objectives.


That seems to be the case, CLAP is starting out as Mac, Windows and Linux compatable, and geared towards cross platform compatibility. Basically replacing VST2 as the default most portable plug in format to start off in. You've probably followed Urs's posts on KVR about it I'm guessing.


----------



## Dewdman42

AlexRuger said:


> Honestly I'm afraid that the name alone will keep it from winning.


hehe yea. There is already talk about trying to change it to CLP or CAP or something with three laters, but lots of puns about CLAP...but we'll see... hhehe


----------



## Dewdman42

AlexRuger said:


> Are there any tools that help with transferring a codebase from VST2 -> VST3?


no. Its really a completely different framework. Both for hosts and for plugins. There is a reason its not in VePro yet, for example....it has nothing whatsoever to do with laziness...its just very much not a small task.

In addition to that, if you are dealing with midi at all, whether for an instrument or something kind of midi plugin...VST3 is WAY more complicated and in come cases fundamentally broken due to design flaws in the way Steinberg abstracted things.


----------



## dts_marin

Dewdman42 said:


> hehe yea. There is already talk about trying to change it to CLP or CAP or something with three laters, but lots of puns about CLAP...but we'll see... hhehe


If they name it CAP it is only proper to name it NO CAP https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=No cap&amp=true


----------



## Dewdman42

machinesworking said:


> That seems to be the case, CLAP is starting out as Mac, Windows and Linux compatable, and geared towards cross platform compatibility. Basically replacing VST2 as the default most portable plug in format to start off in. You've probably followed Urs's posts on KVR about it I'm guessing.


We're getting OT, but yes. I agree. Its also intentionally kept reasonably simple...adds a few needed things that VST2 doesn't have, without introducing a complicated over-engineered solution like VST3. It brings in multi midi ports, for example. They had a number of people quickly convert VST2 projects to CLAP in a day, with allegedly "eye popping" performance results due to the multi-threading capabilities.

It will come down to critical mass. The mainstream hosts have to adopt it. They won't spend the time to do that until they feel they have to. Its a chicken or the egg problem. Plugin developers won't spend time converting their plugins until they know most of the hosts can support their work. So that is the main roadblock to get around in my opinion. But..if we manage to get past that, Steinberg can kiss my you-know-what. Steinberg and Apple will be the very last hosts to ever adopt CLAP, if ever...I should add. They won't do it unless most plugins stop shipping in VST form. Thing is... The CLAP-to-AU wrapper will provide a way for developers to develop in CLAP and get AU plugins for free right now today. So LogicPro is already solved by that. VST is not so simple unless Steinberg relaxes their VST licensing, especially on VST2. CLAP-to-VST2 wrapper will be easy, though may require a Steinberg license. CLAP-to-VST3 wrapper will not easy and will probably never happen. Steinberg is going to be faced with the same thing they always have, people trying to avoid VST3 and willing to do whatever they have to in order to avoid it..including moving to CLAP instead of the no-longer-licensable VST2.

I think Reaper will get on board with this pretty quickly. We'll have BitWig and Reaper for a long time and not much else. Then JUCE will work with it and a bunch of JUCE based stuff will suddenly support CLAP, like Kushview, Unify and a few others. The iPlug dev is already speaking highly about it, so there is that too. LogicPro will be covered by the aforementioned wrapper. But we will need PreSonus, Cakewalk, MOTU, VSL, Ableton and a couple others before plugin developers everywhere will run to release CLAP versions of their plugins. So that is really the biggest challenge in my view, getting MOTU and other developers to accept they should add another plugin format to their hosts.


----------



## dts_marin

Dewdman42 said:


> We're getting OT, but yes. I agree. Its also intentionally kept reasonably simple...adds a few needed things that VST2 doesn't have, without introducing a complicated over-engineered solution like VST3. It brings in multi midi ports, for example. They had a number of people quickly convert VST2 projects to CLAP in a day, with allegedly "eye popping" performance results due to the multi-threading capabilities.
> 
> It will come down to critical mass. The mainstream hosts have to adopt it. They won't spend the time to do that until they feel they have to. Its a chicken or the egg problem. Plugin developers won't spend time converting their plugins until they know most of the hosts can support their work. So that is the main roadblock to get around in my opinion. But..if we manage to get past that, Steinberg can kiss my you-know-what. Steinberg and Apple will be the very last hosts to ever adopt CLAP, if ever...I should add. They won't do it unless most plugins stop shipping in VST form. Thing is... The CLAP-to-AU wrapper will provide a way for developers to develop in CLAP and get AU plugins for free right now today. So LogicPro is already solved by that. VST is not so simple unless Steinberg relaxes their VST licensing, especially on VST2. CLAP-to-VST2 wrapper will be easy, though may require a license. CLAP-to-VST3 wrapper will not easy and will probably never happen. Steinberg is going to be faced with the same thing they always have, people trying to avoid VST3 and willing to do whatever they have to in order to avoid it..including moving to CLAP instead of the no-longer-licensable VST2.
> 
> I think Reaper will get on board with this pretty quickly. We'll have BitWig and Reaper for a long time and not much else. Then JUCE will work with it and a bunch of JUCE based stuff will suddenly support CLAP, like Kushview, Unify and a few others. The iPlu dev is already speaking highly about it, so there is that too. LogicPro will be covered by the aforementioned wrapper. But we will need PreSonus, Cakewalk, MOTU, VSL, Ableton and a couple others before plugin developers everywhere will run to release CLAP versions of their plugins. So that is really the biggest challenge in my view, getting MOTU and other developers to accept they should add another plugin format to their hosts.


Is it worth bringing up CLAP in a MOTU webinar? If we make MOTU aware maybe they can jump ahead. Although I fear they'll want to push for their own MAS format but MOTU has near zero influence on that market so as Jeb Bush famously said: "Please, CLAP"


----------



## Dewdman42

I think its too early for that


----------



## Trensharo

dts_marin said:


> Is it worth bringing up CLAP in a MOTU webinar? If we make MOTU aware maybe they can jump ahead. Although I fear they'll want to push for their own MAS format but MOTU has near zero influence on that market so as Jeb Bush famously said: "Please, CLAP"


MOTU Supporting CLAP is about as useful as them having the MAS format for plug-ins in DP. One DAW can only force something like this to be adopted if it is so dominant in a market segment that developers are basically cornered into supporting it...

Like AAX for Pro Tools, or AU for Apple's Audio/Visual apps (due to its proliferation among that platform's users).

More DAW developers will have to support it, otherwise no one is going to bother developing plugins on that format.

Developers don't want yet another plug-in format to target. Look how swiftly they jump off the DirectX wagon on Windows.


----------



## machinesworking

Trensharo said:


> MOTU Supporting CLAP is about as useful as them having the MAS format for plug-ins in DP. One DAW can only force something like this to be adopted if it is so dominant in a market segment that developers are basically cornered into supporting it...
> 
> Like AAX for Pro Tools, or AU for Apple's Audio/Visual apps (due to its proliferation among that platform's users).
> 
> More DAW developers will have to support it, otherwise no one is going to bother developing plugins on that format.
> 
> Developers don't want yet another plug-in format to target. Look how swiftly they jump off the DirectX wagon on Windows.


----------



## dts_marin

Well the same could be said for Presonus's Sound Variations. DP is one of the first DAWs to support them. And SV are a lot more niche than a plugin format.


----------



## Dewdman42

That's a great point @dts_marin!

Get MOTU and PreSonus onboard with this...and we will be well on our way.. I doubt Apple and especially Steinberg will think about it until hell freezes over.


----------



## machinesworking

On the topic of plug in formats, when DP for Windows was first introduced, the mac version did not include VST. It took almost no pressure from us end users to get MOTU to introduce the vst format for the Mac OS version. Mostly I believe because all other formats are wrappers to DPs internal MOTU Audio System. So IMO it’s very possible that MOTU are well open to CLAP and instigate the wrapper early. The troubles documented here with the Windows version and the VST plug in analyzer are probably well known by MOTU, and a total mess for them.. On the Mac side I’m pretty sure the AU plug in evaluation code is handled by Apple, DAW developers more or les adjust embed it? I have no idea how an evaluation is performed on the VST side? it wasn’t a thing back in the day, the first of this was in Logic with AU, and as a stand alone app.


----------



## Dewdman42

machinesworking said:


> Mostly I believe because all other formats are wrappers to DPs internal MOTU Audio System.


I guess you mean the hosting code is wrapped around MAS in some way. That very well could be. I don't think it would be a hard add for them, but I think they are going to need to see at least a few more plugins in CLAP format before they do anything other then sniff at it.



machinesworking said:


> So IMO it’s very possible that MOTU are well open to CLAP and instigate the wrapper early. The troubles documented here with the Windows version and the VST plug in analyzer are probably well known by MOTU, and a total mess for them.. On the Mac side I’m pretty sure the AU plug in evaluation code is handled by Apple, DAW developers more or les adjust embed it? I have no idea how an evaluation is performed on the VST side? it wasn’t a thing back in the day, the first of this was in Logic with AU, and as a stand alone app.



On that note, CLAP is supposed to have a much faster validation process. Not sure what that means, but another reason to adopt it.


----------



## kgdrum

Dewdman42 said:


> hehe yea. There is already talk about trying to change it to CLP or CAP or something with three laters, but lots of puns about CLAP...but we'll see... hhehe


I like the name ,hey its not like they named it CRAP 💩


----------



## Trensharo

dts_marin said:


> *Well the same could be said for Presonus's Sound Variations.* DP is one of the first DAWs to support them. And SV are a lot more niche than a plugin format.


Sound Variations aren't in the same stratosphere of complexity as a new plug-in format.

Sound Variations can target the sample player/engine, provided the latter knows about the key switches in a sample library/virtual instrument. This alone makes it trivial by comparison. The only thing PreSonus/MOTU/whomever need to do is get the Sample player developers to expose this information via an API - the same way Steinberg has been doing with their own sampler for years in Cubase (Import Key Switches).

A new plug-in format requires plug-in developers to port over and maintain an additional plug-in format, as support for the new format is not going to be widespread.

Like I said, there is nothing wrong with MOTU supporting the new format. It just doesn't have the market penetration to make it any more relevant than it already is, in the grand scheme of things.

Supporting it will do nothing but increase support and development costs, which are often passed on to the end user.


----------



## Dewdman42

Trensharo said:


> A new plug-in format requires every plug-in developer to port over their plugins to the new format, in addition to supporting VST.



No it doesn't. Only if they want to. They will want to when VST dies a grizzly death.  But that may take a while.

As already explained, a port from VST2 to CLAP is monumentally easier then a port from VST2 to VST3


----------



## AlexRuger

Dewdman42 said:


> no. Its really a completely different framework. Both for hosts and for plugins. There is a reason its not in VePro yet, for example....it has nothing whatsoever to do with laziness...its just very much not a small task.
> 
> In addition to that, if you are dealing with midi at all, whether for an instrument or something kind of midi plugin...VST3 is WAY more complicated and in come cases fundamentally broken due to design flaws in the way Steinberg abstracted things.


Bummer. Was thinking there could at least be a business opportunity for someone to help translate from VST2 to VST3. What a mess.


----------



## Dewdman42

well there are ways to get from VST2 to VST3, using some wrappers.

For example, JUCE code can be easily coded once and built to both VST2 and VST3, etc. The JUCE paradigm is more like VST2, but check a box in ProJucer and the JUCE framework puts all the nasty complicated VST3 stuff together to produce a VST3 binary from that common code. (You also can get AU and VST2 from that code). 

Actually hardly anyone actually codes out VST3 the way it was meant to be coded in its complicated pure paradigm; as near as I can tell, they use some kind of wrapper. But then it might as well just remain as VST2. Done that way, VST3 is not being used the way its intended to be used, its just a wrapper so you can distribute something that will work inside Cubase when Cubase no longer supports VST2. But you'll be getting none of the advanced features of VST3 that way and also end up with some of the design flaws of VST3. Its a hack.

Anyway, this is getting way off topic..


----------



## machinesworking

Dewdman42 said:


> I guess you mean the hosting code is wrapped around MAS in some way. That very well could be. I don't think it would be a hard add for them, but I think they are going to need to see at least a few more plugins in CLAP format before they do anything other then sniff at it.
> 
> 
> 
> On that note, CLAP is supposed to have a much faster validation process. Not sure what that means, but another reason to adopt it.


 So if you do a "Show Package Contents" of DP, then navigate the built in plug ins folder- contents/Mac OS/PlugIns/MAS you find three MAS plugins named MAS Audiounit,VST, and VST3 Support.bundle. Basically the MOTU Audio System was well developed 20 years ago, MAS plug in support at the time was better than VST and AU so a "wrapper" is what MOTU uses to address the plug in types in DP. Essentially I think MOTU are pretty good at porting to new formats, but apparently there's issues with the VST evaluation tool on Windows, which I'm pretty dammed sure isn't at all what Mac OS uses. VST and VST3 does have some weirdness with some plug ins not working in DPO compared to Bitwig for instance, but nothing like the failure Trensharo is talking about.


----------



## Dewdman42

Yes I am aware, but at this point I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I do not take the same opinion that everything in DP is wrapper as you are describing above, but its not important.


----------



## machinesworking

Dewdman42 said:


> Yes I am aware, but at this point I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I do not take the same opinion that everything in DP is wrapper as you are describing above, but its not important.


 Sure, but I think it's obvious that MOTU have their own internal audio/MIDI setup with MAS kind of like Steinberg's ASIO, so they plug in other formats through that system. They already use maybe not a wrapper, but a converter, as is obvious with the MAS plug ins for converting VST and AU. My original point was that it was a super quick turn around on people asking for Mac VST support in DP, so knowing that, it seems to be something MOTU are used to doing, it's possible they support CLAP early on, like Bitwig and Reaper(probably) will.


----------



## Dewdman42

you are conflating a few things though. In MOTU there is MAS, which refers to a few different things, including how audio is handled, how plugins are handled, etc. In Steinberg language you have ASIO and VST...different words for different parts of the subsystems, etc.. 

MAS has always been at the heart of DP for decades, as you have correctly stated the obvious..but its irrelevant to how plugins are handled, that is a seperate system.. MOTU does make some of their own plugins, using their own "MAS" sdk. And its possible to obtain the MAS sdk to develop your own plugins too using their idea of a plugin/host framework. 

As to how DP handles AU and VST plugins...we are not privy to the source code to know how they handle plugin/host callbacks. Could be some kind of wrappers or might not be, there is no reason to assume anything about wrappers or not..we don't have the source code to know. 

Wrappers are what you use when you have a black box closed system and need to interface with something from a different system, without being able to look into or change the black box system. In simple terms let's say you have this black box that has a round hole. You have a square peg that you want to put into that round hole in that black box. Its a closed black box, there is no way to add a square hole. So you make a round wrapper around the square peg and wala, you can insert the round(ed) peg into the round hole. That's all fine and good, but the downside is that you also lost any concept of the 4 square corners of the original peg. So when you have an open non-black-box..it is quite often preferable not to build a wrapper, but rather extend that system to accept both the round and square pegs...taking advantage of the square peg's special corner features. Hope that makes sense.

I hear what you're saying, it ought to be easy enough for them to support CLAP in some way, whether its with "wrappers" or not...but still I say they will not likely do it until there are at least a few dozen CLAP plugins floating around and users begging for it. And I hope they will...I will definitely ask them to also at some point. Certainly raising a lot of noise about CLAP and getting it on everyone's radar, including theirs, may help to get curious developers to check it out and consider it. 

There are numerous reasons why some of them may or may not choose to include open source solutions into their software....its not a given at all that they will do it. But in order for CLAP to really take off, that is what needs to happen. The tech itself is really not that complicated. But put yourself in their shoes, if they add CLAP support right away, and then CLAP never turns into anything, then they have to either leave this half baked CLAP support in their software or take it out....to the sound of screaming customers... So its not something that I think they will do lightly, regardless of how easy it is to do.


----------



## machinesworking

Dewdman42 said:


> MAS has always been at the heart of DP for decades, as you have correctly stated the obvious..but its irrelevant to how plugins are handled, that is a seperate system.. MOTU does make some of their own plugins, using their own "MAS" sdk. And its possible to obtain the MAS sdk to develop your own plugins too using their idea of a plugin/host framework.
> 
> As to how DP handles AU and VST plugins...we are not privy to the source code to know how they handle plugin/host callbacks. Could be some kind of wrappers or might not be, there is no reason to assume anything about wrappers or not..we don't have the source code to know.


 That's why I pointed to their framework there. The way they seem to address AU, VST is through a MAS plug in, it's one of the more transparent things I see in their system. 
Alongside their MAS bundles for their built in plug ins is MAS AudioUnit Support.bundle, MAS VST Support.bundle etc. It points to it being a fairly upper level support, like they already have the upper level tags for it. I agree it's still a matter of whether MOTU want to spend the time, I just think it's a lot more likely than Logic, maybe more so than Studio one that they adopt CLAP, that's all.


----------



## Dewdman42

you are assuming a lot. I added a lot of text to my last post while you were writing your response. Read it again.

In MacOS you have bundles which can have all kinds of different things inside them..you do not know whether the things you are talking about are actual MAS plugins or wrappers, etc.. they are simply libraries of code as far as we're concerned, that happens to have the word MAS included in the bundle name. It might not even be code a bundle can just be stuffed with resources...some of it can be in binary form..in which case we don't know what it is.


----------



## Dewdman42

machinesworking said:


> I just think it's a lot more likely than Logic, maybe more so than Studio one that they adopt CLAP, that's all.


This I agree. MOTU has shown generally much more willingness to embrace various technologies beyond MAS, such as both AU and VST. Apple on the other hand, will probably stick with only AU and I think Steinberg will try to stick with VST but in the end if CLAP works out and people stop building VST plugins due to license problems..then they will eventually have to cave in and support CLAP also...but it will take them a long time to come to that conclusion. Maybe in the end they will just open their VST license back up hehe.

I think StudioOne is also a strong candidate to embrace CLAP. Hope they will.

Hopefully Reaper will too.

I think another thing that may help CLAP to be considered for including in DP and other DAW's is to point out the new possibilities it has that neither VST or AU have, and see plugins come out taking advantage of that. We know it has better multi-threading. We also know it can handle multi-midi-port. I think there are some other benefits too, which I haven't looked into yet, but I read that BitWig is really interested in it because of modulation possibilities that somehow aren't possible with AU/VST??? Anyway, that kind of capability may inspire DAW's such as DP to support it...and ultimately it would prove to be a VST killer...but probably Apple will never cave in because they made AU part of their CoreAudio framework in MacOS...with all kinds of stuff on both MacOS and iOS depending on their API's, etc... They are not going to ever add this to LogicPro most likely. But at least the CLAP team have already worked out an AU wrapper....so...


----------



## machinesworking

Dewdman42 said:


> This I agree. MOTU has shown generally much more willingness to embrace various technologies beyond MAS, such as both AU and VST. Apple on the other hand, will probably stick with only AU and I think Steinberg will try to stick with VST but in the end if CLAP works out and people stop building VST plugins due to license problems..then they will eventually have to cave in and support CLAP also...but it will take them a long time to come to that conclusion. Maybe in the end they will just open their VST license back up hehe.
> 
> I think StudioOne is also a strong candidate to embrace CLAP. Hope they will.
> 
> Hopefully Reaper will too.
> 
> I think another thing that may help CLAP to be considered for including in DP and other DAW's is to point out the new possibilities it has that neither VST or AU have, and see plugins come out taking advantage of that. We know it has better multi-threading. We also know it can handle multi-midi-port. I think there are some other benefits too, which I haven't looked into yet, but I read that BitWig is really interested in it because of modulation possibilities that somehow aren't possible with AU/VST??? Anyway, that kind of capability may inspire DAW's such as DP to support it...and ultimately it would prove to be a VST killer...but probably Apple will never cave in because they made AU part of their CoreAudio framework in MacOS...with all kinds of stuff on both MacOS and iOS depending on their API's, etc... They are not going to ever add this to LogicPro most likely. But at least the CLAP team have already worked out an AU wrapper....so...


No argument here, the only thing I would add is Reaper is very very likely to be the second DAW with native Clap support beyond Bitwig, and I suspect some people at Bitwig are helping to code CLAP in the first place, namely due to them wanting a truly universal plug in format considering they natively support all three OS, and likely have the same misgivings about VST3 as everyone else has aired. 

Fun stuff, I'm not completely letting MOTU off the charges leveled here, but it's IMO obvious that supporting VST3 hasn't been an easy thing for them, and it's great to see developers offering up a truly universal format for the first time, 20 years later.


----------



## Al Maurice

One thing we've overlooked, VST was meant to be the universal format to end all formats.

Then along came VST3, yet alone MAS, AAX, and AU.

Now here is another attempt.

Maybe one day the nirvana will be reached, and this exercise may end once and for all!

But then devs get itchy feet, and along comes another ...


----------



## machinesworking

Al Maurice said:


> One thing we've overlooked, VST was meant to be the universal format to end all formats.
> 
> Then along came VST3, yet alone MAS, AAX, and AU.
> 
> Now here is another attempt.
> 
> Maybe one day the nirvana will be reached, and this exercise may end once and for all!
> 
> But then devs get itchy feet, and along comes another ...


 You're overlooking or leaving out one fact here, VST, MAS, AAX, AU, Direct X, are all proprietary formats. Steinberg, MOTU, Avid, Apple, Cakewalk have direct ownership, CLAP is like LADSPA etc. in that it's open source, but it's starting off as a more open platform focusing as much on Windows and Mac OS development as Linux. We see the problems with AAX and AU since they do not support all formats by choice, and VST3 has shown how little Steinberg care about developers and their needs, so IMO CLAP actually has a higher chance of long term success not being attached to a commercial interest.


----------



## Trensharo

To get back to the actual topic...

I've done a full clean out and reinstall (from scratch) of DP 11.03. I deleted everything except the Auth file.

The vast majority of my Native Instruments virtual instruments won't show up as avaiable for use, even after passing the scan.

Komplete Kontrol, Massive, Reaktor, Massive X, Maschine 2, Absynth, FM8 and Battery are all unusable. Some VST2 Some VST3. All of these except Maschine 2 were available yesterday. I am not reinstalling all of that software just to see if it forces them to show up.

There are UJAM Virtual Instruments that I cannot get to load. These are all VST2.

A couple of Steinberg's VSTis are passing the scan, but the DAW isn't making them available for use. These were available yesterday. Same as the NI stuff.

Bunch of Plug-ins not available for use (pass the scan, but DAW doesn't show them in the plug-in chooser).

*Additionally: *The list of plugins that have failed is *wildly different* from the list that failed yesterday, on the same exact matching. The only thing that has changed is I cleaned out the DP installation and reinstalled it. I'm not even sure their plug-in validation is something anyone can trust. There is *zero consistency* with it.

_Also, if MOTU cannot even get this their DAW to work with VST plug-ins, what makes anyone think they'll be able to get it to work with CLAP or anything else that pops up? People in this thread are complaining about VST3, but it's a complete fail with VST2, as well (on Windows)._


----------



## machinesworking

Trensharo said:


> To get back to the actual topic...
> 
> I've done a full clean out and reinstall (from scratch) of DP 11.03. I deleted everything except the Auth file.
> 
> The vast majority of my Native Instruments virtual instruments won't show up as avaiable for use, even after passing the scan.
> 
> Komplete Kontrol, Massive, Reaktor, Massive X, Maschine 2, Absynth, FM8 and Battery are all unusable. Some VST2 Some VST3. All of these except Maschine 2 were available yesterday. I am not reinstalling all of that software just to see if it forces them to show up.
> 
> There are UJAM Virtual Instruments that I cannot get to load. These are all VST2.
> 
> A couple of Steinberg's VSTis are passing the scan, but the DAW isn't making them available for use. These were available yesterday. Same as the NI stuff.
> 
> Bunch of Plug-ins not available for use (pass the scan, but DAW doesn't show them in the plug-in chooser).
> 
> *Additionally: *The list of plugins that have failed is *wildly different* from the list that failed yesterday, on the same exact matching. The only thing that has changed is I cleaned out the DP installation and reinstalled it. I'm not even sure their plug-in validation is something anyone can trust. There is *zero consistency* with it.
> 
> _Also, if MOTU cannot even get this their DAW to work with VST plug-ins, what makes anyone think they'll be able to get it to work with CLAP or anything else that pops up? People in this thread are complaining about VST3, but it's a complete fail with VST2, as well (on Windows)._


 Without being in the room with you I can't help much, but a few questions, and I apologize for not asking earlier. 

Are you not seeing the plug ins in tracks in DP or in the Audio Plug Ins Preferences settings? are they failing examination there? 

When it comes to VST3i with MIDI out and audio in capabilities you will see them in the Audio Plug Ins preferences but they only show up in Aux tracks, you can use them, it's just a strange DP thing that they need to be instantiated in Aux tracks instead of Instrument tracks, but that's how it is for VST3 as of the moment. 


IMO the issues you have with VST on Windows are just a more major version of the issue that the VST examination process has in general. At least in Mac OS AU examination was started and I would bet to this day is taken care of by Apple, I don't know who is doing the code for VST examination, but it's not as reliable IMO as the AU version and makes me wonder if it isn't some third party Steinberg code that isn't playing well with DP especially on Windows. 

So IMO anyway, a third party plug in format would be fine in DP. AU works well on Mac OS and VST2 does as well, VST3 is touchy, but it's touchy in every DAW on Mac OS at least.


----------



## Trensharo

machinesworking said:


> Without being in the room with you I can't help much, but a few questions, and I apologize for not asking earlier.
> 
> Are you not seeing the plug ins in tracks in DP or in the Audio Plug Ins Preferences settings? are they failing examination there?


The plug-ins pass examination, but the plugins are not available for use in DP.


machinesworking said:


> When it comes to VST3i with MIDI out and audio in capabilities you will see them in the Audio Plug Ins preferences but they only show up in Aux tracks, you can use them, it's just a strange DP thing that they need to be instantiated in Aux tracks instead of Instrument tracks, but that's how it is for VST3 as of the moment.


Yep, I noticed this with plug-ins like Scaler 2. They aren't there either. I checked on all track types. The plug-ins and virtual instruments are not available for use anywhere.

Like I said, sometimes reinstalling the plug-in will make them available for use, but who wants to run 15 different plug-in/instrument reinstallers every time DP does an update, and who wants to run a reinstall to get a plug-in to show up right after running an updater for that plug-in... every time this happens.

The VST shenanigans is such that it discourages a user from even running an up-to-date system. It's too risky. You're better off just running the same version of the software and locking all of your software in place, then taking the machine offline. The risk of things bugging out if anything updates is really too high.

I spent more time troubleshooting than actually doing anything music-related in the software. I don't consider it usable software, personally.


machinesworking said:


> IMO the issues you have with VST on Windows are just a more major version of the issue that the VST examination process has in general. At least in Mac OS AU examination was started and I would bet to this day is taken care of by Apple, I don't know who is doing the code for VST examination, but it's not as reliable IMO as the AU version and makes me wonder if it isn't some third party Steinberg code that isn't playing well with DP especially on Windows.


Hard to say or bet, the entire validator is a black box. It doesn't tell us why they failed the examination.

But the issue is less the examination and more the fact that even when the plugins or virtual instruments pass the validator, the DAW does not offer them as available for use in the plug-in chooser on any track type.

The only thing the validator does give you is whether or not the plug-in simply failed or crashed the validator process.


machinesworking said:


> So IMO anyway, a third party plug in format would be fine in DP. AU works well on Mac OS and VST2 does as well, VST3 is touchy, but it's touchy in every DAW on Mac OS at least.


Blaming this on Steinberg or the VST Plug-in format is a bit rich when every other DAW I've tested has not had these issues. This is a DP-specific issue, not a VST issue. I'm not entirely sure "yet another plugin format" will fix it.

How does one rationalize conflating issues a specific DAW has with VST Plug-ins to an issue with the plug-in format itself?


----------



## Dewdman42

I thought you were going to uninstall it and switch back to StudioOne?


----------



## kgdrum

Dewdman42 said:


> I thought you were going to uninstall it and switch back to StudioOne?


+1 ?


----------



## Trensharo

Dewdman42 said:


> I thought you were going to uninstall it and switch back to StudioOne?


I did. I just wanted to make sure I was covering all of my bases.






Also, Studio One/DP are only secondary DAWs. I always keep another one around to maintain proficiency in an alternative solution. DP was replacing S1 in that role. You can read the thread over again to catch-up on that.

More comprehension, less passive aggressiveness 

It's a one executable installer, and it uninstalls itself fairly cleanly. If someone asks a question, I don't have a problem adding it back and checking so that I can answer that question. Better than than shrugging them off.


----------



## dterry

Trensharo said:


> I did. I just wanted to make sure I was covering all of my bases.
> 
> ....
> 
> Also, Studio One/DP are only secondary DAWs. I always keep another one around to maintain proficiency in an alternative solution. DP was replacing S1 in that role. You can read the thread over again to catchup on that.
> 
> More comprehension, less passive aggressiveness


Maybe you should spend less time complaining about a DAW you don't even plan to use, do your own research, and you wouldn't have wasted everyone's time. Not very professional of you.

You can read other threads, articles, tutorials and the manual if you want to catchup on how to setup, configure and use DP. That's what the rest of us did (and still do), and none of us have the problems you have had. DP is an alternate scoring DAW for me. Nuendo is my primary, along with ProTools for clients who need it (and I have Studio One 5.4 just because it's decent at some things). All work perfectly fine.

Perhaps you should do a bit more research on your own next time.


----------



## kgdrum

Trensharo said:


> I did. I just wanted to make sure I was covering all of my bases.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DP was replacing S1 in that role. You can read the thread over again to catch-up on that.
> 
> More comprehension, less passive aggressiveness





You have got to be either kidding,trolling or totally delusional,multiple long time VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE AND HELPFUL USERS of DP and various DAW’s have been try to help you, 
If anyone here has been passive-aggressive………………..WOW 🤫


----------



## machinesworking

Trensharo said:


> If someone asks a question, I don't have a problem adding it back and checking so that I can answer that question. Better than than shrugging them off.


 You shrugged me off after I spent a good amount of time going over why some VST3i don't show up in your tracks, how to get them to show up in Aux tracks etc. and frankly I'm still not convinced you're understanding the weird way certain VST3i and maybe even VST2i have to be dealt with in DP, since personally I've never seen a plug in show up in the plug in preferences but not in DP tracks. I'm also getting the impression that you haven't followed up with official MOTU support on this? MOTU have phone support that's pretty great, plus regular email tech support. 

The other part of this, DP is a pretty advanced software, it's not a good choice for a third choice, it takes months to get it set up the way you want to use it, it's odd and takes some effort to set up. You're not the first person to run into weirdness, and go on a rage on forums about it, and frankly like others have mentioned it's likely more unfamiliarity than anything else.


----------



## Trensharo

machinesworking said:


> You shrugged me off after I spent a good amount of time going over why some VST3i don't show up in your tracks, how to get them to show up in Aux tracks etc.


Completely untrue. Look up in the thread.

I mentioned a couple showing up as fx. The explanation was that i used them on Aux channels and they will still function as VSTi. Notes were taken. This is not related to my issue, and it was acknowledged when brought up. Including the fact that aux channels can be added to vracks, so that convenience is not lost.

That certainly was an ufamiliarity with a quirk of DP, but its unrelated to the invisible/disappearing plugin issues or the hardware compatibility issue that could only be fixed by buying new hardware. 


machinesworking said:


> and frankly I'm still not convinced you're understanding the weird way certain VST3i and maybe even VST2i have to be dealt with in DP,


Wrong. I've acknowledged that. The vsts aren't there. They were there before. I know where to look for them, because I saw them before. What else is there to understand?

I've already stated that I checked all track types. They don't show up. The end.


machinesworking said:


> since personally I've never seen a plug in show up in the plug in preferences but not in DP tracks. I'm also getting the impression that you haven't followed up with official MOTU support on this? MOTU have phone support that's pretty great, plus regular email tech support.


I have. I'm not bothering them again with it, because they weren't helpful before. They just told me it works for them.


machinesworking said:


> The other part of this, DP is a pretty advanced software, it's not a good choice for a third choice, it takes months to get it set up the way you want to use it, it's odd and takes some effort to set up. You're not the first person to run into weirdness, and go on a rage on forums about it, and frankly like others have mentioned it's likely more unfamiliarity than anything else.


This has nothing to do with the issue.

Unfamiloarity is not the issue. Lol.

When I start Cubase, my plugins are there. When I start DP, they are not. I don't need to be familiar with a DAW for it to make VST plugins and virtual instruments available for use, or use an interface that works with literally every other application on my system.


----------



## Trensharo

kgdrum said:


> You have got to be either kidding,trolling or totally delusional,multiple long time VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE AND HELPFUL USERS of DP and various DAW’s have been try to help you,
> If anyone here has beenpassive aggressive………………..WOW 🤫


This person im replying to knows what I'm talking about. That comment was for him and him alone. He's already deleted several replies to me that I saw but didn't mention. He knows what I'm referring to.

You may not have seen them, but I certainly did.


----------



## dts_marin

which plugins are missing? Also I'm assuming you know that for Instrument tracks only the first insert box in the mixing board is meant for VSTi plugins the rest only accept VST fx. The plugin lists are different depending on what you are trying to add. Is that clear?


----------



## machinesworking

Trensharo said:


> Completely untrue. Look up in the thread.
> 
> I mentioned a couple showing up as fx. The explanation was that i used them on Aux channels and they will still function as VSTi. Notes were taken. This is not related to my issue, and it was acknowledged when brought up. Including the fact that aux channels can be added to vracks, so that convenience is not lost.
> 
> That certainly was an ufamiliarity with a quirk of DP, but its unrelated to the invisible/disappearing plugin issues or the hardware compatibility issue that could only be fixed by buying new hardware.
> 
> Wrong. I've acknowledged that. The vsts aren't there. They were there before. I know where to look for them, because I saw them before. What else is there to understand?
> 
> I've already stated that I checked all track types. They don't show up. The end.
> 
> I have. I'm not bothering them again with it, because they weren't helpful before. They just told me it works for them.
> 
> This has nothing to do with the issue.
> 
> Unfamiloarity is not the issue. Lol.
> 
> When I start Cubase, my plugins are there. When I start DP, they are not. I don't need to be familiar with a DAW for it to make VST plugins and virtual instruments available for use, or use an interface that works with literally every other application on my system.


No, you did not reply to my suggestions about Aux tracks. It's true you then claimed to know about it later on after I went into detail about it, but you did not initially respond, it's all in this thread, like you said, but with a different outcome that what you're saying

I'm not unsympathetic, but your blowing off of tech support because they've never seen your issue isn't what I would call a good sign, in fact your lack of a step by step explanation of what you're experiencing even here in this thread is any example then I'm not really surprised they don't have a response for you. It's very likely that your issue is really rare, this is how big bugs pass through beta stages, by only affecting a small group of people. I've heard all kinds of complaints about DP and even a bit more about the Windows version, but this is the first time I've heard about VSTs failing, then not failing examination in seemingly random ways. If you were on Mac OS I would suggest looking at permissions, it seems like somehow access to the plug ins changes, code is generally the same every time, when it reacts differently, when the same plug in fails and passes an evaluation it seems to me that's some sort of access issue, like DP is having some conflict accessing your VST folders....


----------



## gzapper

Trensharo said:


> Completely untrue. Look up in the thread.
> 
> I mentioned a couple showing up as fx. The explanation was that i used them on Aux channels and they will still function as VSTi. Notes were taken. This is not related to my issue, and it was acknowledged when brought up. Including the fact that aux channels can be added to vracks, so that convenience is not lost.
> 
> That certainly was an ufamiliarity with a quirk of DP, but its unrelated to the invisible/disappearing plugin issues or the hardware compatibility issue that could only be fixed by buying new hardware.
> 
> Wrong. I've acknowledged that. The vsts aren't there. They were there before. I know where to look for them, because I saw them before. What else is there to understand?
> 
> I've already stated that I checked all track types. They don't show up. The end.
> 
> I have. I'm not bothering them again with it, because they weren't helpful before. They just told me it works for them.
> 
> This has nothing to do with the issue.
> 
> Unfamiloarity is not the issue. Lol.
> 
> When I start Cubase, my plugins are there. When I start DP, they are not. I don't need to be familiar with a DAW for it to make VST plugins and virtual instruments available for use, or use an interface that works with literally every other application on my system.


We really should be discussing what's different in your configuration, since those plugs and instruments work for everyone else.


----------



## AlexRuger

Would like to inject a little brightness in here and give the MOTU devs a round of applause for the graphics work on DP 11. Soooo much smoother, it's a world of difference.


----------



## dts_marin

AlexRuger said:


> Would like to inject a little brightness in here and give the MOTU devs a round of applause for the graphics work on DP 11. Soooo much smoother, it's a world of difference.


The only part I still find outrageously laggy is the automation tool code. Try moving the pencil tool during playback. You will notice a massive drop in the "framerate". I find it baffling how in other DAWs entering automation is instant while in DP it still has to process the points to render them. I suspect it has to do with the alternative display modes (lines, bars, points). Maybe it calculates all of them at the same time?


----------



## Dewdman42

One thing to try, I had a problem a few years ago with DP10...certain things in the GUI were extremely laggy. I somehow tracked it down to being related to my display color profile. I found out that if you create a custom color profile, some apps don't like it. I was having some problems with other apps too, and it was because of the color profile, which was causing millions of color calculations to happen per video frame or something like that. I changed it to the generic RGB factory profile and the laggy GUI went away in DP...

Don't use the one that was created for your display...use one of the generic ones. I was also able to find out my LG monitor also had a generic RGB setting and when I set the hardware Setting to RGB as well as MacOS color profile to generic RGB, everything looked great and proper, but without any color profile lag.

worth a try anyway....


----------



## CyberPunk

cmillar said:


> Having used Cubase extensively over the pandemic period to check it out, I gladly came back to DP for many reasons:
> - DP handles VI's with more CPU efficiency. ie: Omnisphere has less of a CPU hit when loaded in DP. If I load it into VEP7, it's even easier.
> - hooking up to VEP7, on the same computer, is so easy and fast
> - the new scalable zoom view is great for the eyes
> - if you like to look at MIDI in notation view, it's as good if not better than Cubase as far as figuring out the actual 'real' lengths of notes
> 
> DP is full of features with something for everyone.
> Best of all, it supports older machines like my 2009 MacPro with High Sierra and makes it fly.


I am still trying to figure out compound tempo in cubase


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

So how are the DP fans finding DP11? Not many videos on YouTube on it and MOTU has given up making the previous webinars available on their site it seems. Certainly seems like DP has some compelling benefits over something like Cubase (that delay option per articulation!), but I didn’t have the patience when I tried the demo a while ago and now I can’t trial it again. Very different workflow and behavior compared to all the other DAWs so harder to just jump into.


----------



## kgdrum

ALittleNightMusic said:


> So how are the DP fans finding DP11? Not many videos on YouTube on it and MOTU has given up making the previous webinars available on their site it seems. Certainly seems like DP has some compelling benefits over something like Cubase (that delay option per articulation!), but I didn’t have the patience when I tried the demo a while ago and now I can’t trial it again. Very different workflow and behavior compared to all the other DAWs so harder to just jump into.


Motu tech support and customer service has improved over the last several years,I suspect if you call them on the phone they would reset your ability to demo DP again


----------



## machinesworking

ALittleNightMusic said:


> So how are the DP fans finding DP11? Not many videos on YouTube on it and MOTU has given up making the previous webinars available on their site it seems. Certainly seems like DP has some compelling benefits over something like Cubase (that delay option per articulation!), but I didn’t have the patience when I tried the demo a while ago and now I can’t trial it again. Very different workflow and behavior compared to all the other DAWs so harder to just jump into.


 I love it, I'm a complainer, I'll flatly admit it. I jumped ship from DP in 2000 to Logic because of a bug flattening looped audio to real copies, then jumped back from Logic at around DP7. I also own Live 11, plus Bitwig, Logic and Reaper in an attempt to find an MPE host before DP and Live got MPE... so I can tell you everything wrong with DP to me for sure. 

The thing I'm loving is they're not going in one direction. There's been this thing in the DAW world for a while and in plug ins etc. of bloatware. I get it, people don't want a Jack of all trades master of none. I'm definitely someone who wanted literally everything in the update, better controller support, MPE, Articulation mapping, the Grid and Ableton style launching of clips, Live Performance mode, all of it. The thing is DP is always going to have a focus on large templates and film, that's in their DNA, so there's not much to worry about. 

They haven't messed up it's ability to host massive amounts of plug ins, in fact in a recent stress test on the M1 Air here with Diva it stomped Reaper for the first time, Reaper always gets an extra plug in or two over DP usually and Logic gets a plug in or two less. In this case DP kills the competition. 

It still has some weird stuff here and there, looping is tied to Clips which are DPs version of object oriented MIDI and Audio, but that means that adio and MIDI only gets the rudimentary Clip Editor, all the more advanced editors that work with unpacked audio and MIDI do not work while it's packed into CLips. DP is the last DAW I know of that doesn't have a default MIDI track attached to a VSTi, AUi, so any virtual instrument is two tracks, one VI track and one MIDI track. 

DP is also IMO geared towards building up a workflow, templates, keyboard commands you customize, and IMO batches of Clippings (saved track settings for audio and MIDI among other things), getting really used to track selection settings and setting up logical for you ways of dealing with that. The search function is pretty amazing, a guy did a webinar on how you can use specific naming conventions with automator extensions like Keyboard Maestro to have instant access to specific sections of massive templates. What dawned on me was you don't really need Keyboard Maestro, the search engine is wicked smart. So say you want to have it load only guitars for example, you can name all guitar tracks in your project to end with a space and g, the type in spacebar g, and only the guitar tracks are visible.

Anyway I'm pretty happy, the M1 version really doesn't like REX files right now, but that's more on Reason Studios, their REX engine just got ported to M1.


----------



## cmillar

ALittleNightMusic said:


> So how are the DP fans finding DP11? Not many videos on YouTube on it and MOTU has given up making the previous webinars available on their site it seems. Certainly seems like DP has some compelling benefits over something like Cubase (that delay option per articulation!), but I didn’t have the patience when I tried the demo a while ago and now I can’t trial it again. Very different workflow and behavior compared to all the other DAWs so harder to just jump into.


The latest update to DP 11.04 is excellent, and as most reports have been, it's really 'snappy'.

A couple months ago I edited tracks for a CD release of mine, and did all the audio editing and track leveling myself before going back to get it mastered and finished.

I saved a ton of money doing it myself of course, and was able to do a great job using the built in Zynaptic audio processing where need in order to 'tighten' a few things up in the tracks that we didn't have time to re-record and fix while using studio time.

The original recording engineer loved what I was able to do, and he's a ProTools expert with great ears (happens to also be a real musician who plays real instruments and is pretty fussy).

MOTU gets better and better, and what I love is that it all flies on my 2009 MacPro 5,1 running OSX High Sierra. No need for the 'latest/greatest' computer.


----------



## Dewdman42

ALittleNightMusic said:


> So how are the DP fans finding DP11? Not many videos on YouTube on it and MOTU has given up making the previous webinars available on their site it seems.



unfortunately. 

Best source of info are the Groove3 tutorials. Whatever webinars that are currently posted on MOTU's website are worth a view in general secondarily to the Groove3 tutorials IMHO. Some off those webinars which I saw live and never were posted after the fact, were long winded and probably not really good enough to remain posted, I don't fault MOTU entirely for holding some of them back. The webinars come across more like a loose and casual conversation between DP fans...and some interesting stuff comes up, but they are not prepared or produced well enough to be sitting on a page forever. MOTU would like to edit them down I think, but who has time?




ALittleNightMusic said:


> Certainly seems like DP has some compelling benefits over something like Cubase (that delay option per articulation!),



delay per articulation is definitely a cool add, glad they listened on that one. Maybe Steinberg will pay attention, but I think they are too busy trying to push VST3 through.

Another very compelling feature are "chunks". Look into that.

If you do film work, the DP's hit point calculator is great.

Anyway, all these DAW's have pros and cons, no matter what you find some cool features in each one and some annoyances and you just have to decide what is important to you. I am going with DP now because of various reasons:

1. It will support VST2 and AU in the future, and with any luck CLAP

2. Chunks (_one of the biggest reasons I switched over_)

3. Articulation maps with delay setting

4. Hit point tempo map calculator

5. Runs on older MacOS



ALittleNightMusic said:


> Very different workflow and behavior compared to all the other DAWs so harder to just jump into.



It doesn't have to be that different. I mean cubase has midi tracks and instrument tracks. DP can run the same way. Cubase has an instrument rack, just like DP V-Rack if you want to use that. V-Racks are arguably more flexible since you can have more than one of them as needed. Cubase instrument tracks support automation better though I think. etc. 

what is really so different about it? Now if you want to get into using Chunks a lot more...that can be a bit different and as MW said already, MOTU is still on their own tune a little bit with midi clips. Though one of the webinars that covers the clip arranger actually brought some some really interesting work flows I hadn't thought of...so more to explore there..

but anyway the point is, DP is not so radically different that shouldn't enable you to get going with it pretty quickly doing whatever the same stuff you've been doing. later on you can dive into chunks and other DP-exclusive workflows as you get more into it.


----------



## Chamberfield

Dewdman42 said:


> Best source of info are the Groove3 tutorials


+1 on the Groove3 tutorials. Even though it's a few versions behind, most of the info is still relevant and hasn't changed drastically.

My only minor complaint about DP versioning is that I wish MOTU would update the default skin to a more modern look with dark background. I find it odd it still defaults to the 1990's ProTools look. 

But aside from that, V11 has been pretty solid for me so far.


----------



## Dewdman42

I don't disagree about the skin, but make sure to check out that one custom skin somebody on the motunation forum made and shared.

https://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=587723#p587723


----------



## Chamberfield

Dewdman42 said:


> I don't disagree about the skin, but make sure to check out that one custom skin somebody on the motunation forum made and shared.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Customizing Themes (again) - MOTUnation.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.motunation.com


Nice! I'll check those out. I'm pretty happy with the Carbon Fiber theme, but just surprised it's not the default and you have to dig to find it. If I was a first-time user I might be turned off by the out-dated appearance.


----------



## Dewdman42

check out Beyond Black:


----------



## jcrosby

I've been keeping an eye on this thread the past few days, and watched about an hour's worth of videos last night checking out DP's workflow. 

Here's what stands out about DP to me so far:


Chunks looks really useful for prototyping ideas. I can see how it's powerful for film work as well.
The Spotlight style search looks amazing.
Pre-gen looks really interesting. Even if I switch over to an M1 soon I still like the idea of having more CPU headroom.
The content/media bay looks really useful. (And potentially powerful compared to Logic's simplified browser)
Unlimited "Screen sets" (Pardon the logic terminology...)


There are little things that do seem quirky though...


Two tracks per instrument seems clunky. Definitely in terms of real estate, but I could also see this making large templates tricky to manage. I understand this is just part of DP's DNA, but it seems like they could simplify this.
V-Racks look like a way around that, but I've never been a fan of working with multitimbral instances. It's a bit tedious to set up, and I personally have never gelled with scrolling through a list of multis, setting up/deciphering routing if you need to trouble shoot, etc. (Trouble shooting especially so...)
Not wild about having to use a key modifier to name tracks.
Better/more streamlined Support for MIDI FX would be nice. Hardly a dealbreaker, but nice to have...

I haven't demoed it yet. I'm in the middle of a project ATM so it wouldn't be wise to demo for the next couple weeks, but I plan to shortly...

A couple questions:

Any caveats to having pre-gen on by default? Any caveats in general?

Can "renaming tracks" be assigned to a single shortcut that enters you into the text field without clicking? (Logic for example does this... I also get carpal tunnel so the less clicking the better)...

Can the content browser be used to search for samples in bookmarked folders? And is there any kind of tagging system?

How are the bundled plugins? Knowing MOTU I'd imagine they're pretty good...

And... how extensive are the shortcuts, and can most things be done with shortcuts to minimize clicking?


----------



## pinki

Caveats…where to begin. Actually I won’t, I made my thoughts clear at the beginning of this thread. My advice would be to search through the Motunation forum for issues around stability with DP11.


----------



## Dewdman42

jcrosby said:


> Chunks looks really useful for prototyping ideas. I can see how it's powerful for film work as well.



Elfman stated in his master class it was one of the main reasons he uses DP. He can use each chunk to scratch pad out different ideas and bring them back together easily as needed. But also for film work its great you can have all your cues in one project file and switch between them very quickly, etc.



jcrosby said:


> Pre-gen looks really interesting. Even if I switch over to an M1 soon I still like the idea of having more CPU headroom.



FYI, there are quite a lot of plugins that don't work in Pregen mode, including VePro. But yes its a nice idea.




jcrosby said:


> There are little things that do seem quirky though...
> 
> 
> Two tracks per instrument seems clunky. Definitely in terms of real estate, but I could also see this making large templates tricky to manage. I understand this is just part of DP's DNA, but it seems like they could simplify this.



This comes up a lot and I agree and disagree at the same time. I wish MOTU would add midi regions to instrument tracks, just like other DAW's offer, just to shut everyone up on this topic, and I would use those kinds of tracks for simple projects, but the reality is that having midi tracks seperate from instrument tracks is still very advantageous and probably how you will use it anyway, particularly when using VePro and V-Racks. Cubase has midi tracks and provides seperation. By the way, so does LogicPro, they just call it something different, in logic the tracks are seperate from "channels". Channels are where instruments are hosted in LogicPro...tracks are where you put your midi data in regions. You can have one or more midi tracks in LogicPro that are all connected to a single instrument "channel"...etc.. is it really so different? DP undeniably offers more flexibility.

but it is true that if you are just doing something simple or farting around and want to quickly create an instrument track to start playing on it, in DP you have to create two "tracks", though they do offer a dialog box that will let you create those two things in one operation...its marginally more work then LogicPro. Honestly I'd like to see them add that too, but its simply not a deal breaker, when you really start breaking down your workflow and building up templates; you have a LOT more power and flexibility with DP and you will not mind midi tracks separated. In fact you will prefer it if using VePro and really will have the same workflow as other DAW's

also DP has excellent track management, searching for tracks, nested folders, deciding which tracks to display in which window, etc... LogicPro fails miserably in this department.



jcrosby said:


> V-Racks look like a way around that, but I've never been a fan of working with multitimbral instances. It's a bit tedious to set up, and I personally have never gelled with scrolling through a list of multis, setting up/deciphering routing if you need to trouble shoot, etc. (Trouble shooting especially so...)



V-Racks are absolutely no different in concept whatsoever then LogicPro's mixer. In LogicPro you have the arranger area with "tracks"...those tracks point to instruments in the mixer. The LogicPro mixer is like using a V-Rack in DP. Except in DP you can use as many V-rack mixers as you want. But you don't have to.

Additionally in DP you can choose to have the instrument hosted directly in the sequence if you want instead of using a V-Rack...on yes...its own instrument track.

Nothing about Vracks implies multi-timbral, but you can do that too of course if you want,.



> Better/more streamlined Support for MIDI FX would be nice. Hardly a dealbreaker, but nice to have...



no argument there. LogicPro is the only DAW that does this right now.



jcrosby said:


> I haven't demoed it yet. I'm in the middle of a project ATM so it wouldn't be wise to demo for the next couple weeks, but I plan to shortly...



Awesome



jcrosby said:


> A couple questions:
> 
> Any caveats to having pre-gen on by default? Any caveats in general?



Pre-Gen is good. Use it. Some plugins don't support it. Simple as that. There might be some situations where you don't want it on, even for some plugin that supports it, but I'm not aware of any myself.



jcrosby said:


> How are the bundled plugins? Knowing MOTU I'd imagine they're pretty good...



Like all daws they range from adequate to awesome. But I will say their "instrument" plugins are just meh. actually pretty weak compared to logicPro which is simply awesome and Steinberg offers way better instruments too. its just kind of ok in that area, but their audio plugins are quite good and that is MOTU's forte anyway.



jcrosby said:


> And... how extensive are the shortcuts, and can most things be done with shortcuts to minimize clicking?



That will simply depend on you. Some people always find a way that they have to use Keyboard Maestro to get around something the program doesn't provide. But MOTU has been on top of this for a long time with a very good keyboard shortcut manager, etc.. It also has very extensive OSC support in case you want to get crazy with a touchpad.

Like all things, NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE OR WHAT YOU DO...you can try any DAW out there and love some of what it does and be annoyed that they can't seem to get some other things right. That is no different with DP. It has some really compelling features, already mentioned..that's why I'm using it. There is not a single DAW out there that doesn't have glaring annoyances that bother me....but at some point you just choose what is working best for you and live with the annoyances. None of them will be perfect. Period.

LogicPro is still a cool program, but I agree with you about Apple and how they are handling things, plus kind of a lot of serious bugs related to automation, PDC and other things, I just had to move on once MOTU finally added articulation management and bigger fonts.


----------



## jcrosby

Dewdman42 said:


> Elfman stated in his master class it was one of the main reasons he uses DP. He can use each chunk to scratch pad out different ideas and bring them back together easily as needed. But also for film work its great you can have all your cues in one project file and switch between them very quickly, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> FYI, there are quite a lot of plugins that don't work in Pregen mode, including VePro. But yes its a nice idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This comes up a lot and I agree and disagree at the same time. I wish MOTU would add midi regions to instrument tracks, just like other DAW's offer, just to shut everyone up on this topic, and I would use those kinds of tracks for simple projects, but the reality is that having midi tracks seperate from instrument tracks is still very advantageous and probably how you will use it anyway, particularly when using VePro and V-Racks. Cubase has midi tracks and provides seperation. By the way, so does LogicPro, they just call it something different, in logic the tracks are seperate from "channels". Channels are where instruments are hosted in LogicPro...tracks are where you put your midi data in regions. You can have one more more midi tracks in LogicPro that are all connected to a single instrument "channel"...etc.. is it really so different? DP undeniably offers more flexibility.
> 
> but it is true that if you are just doing something simple or farting around and want to quickly create an instrument track to start playing on it, in DP you have to create two "tracks", though they do offer a dialog box that will let you create those two things in one operation...its marginally more work then LogicPro. Honestly I'd like to see them add that too, but its simply not a deal breaker, when you really start breaking down your workflow and building up templates you have a LOT more power and flexibility with DP and you will not mind midi tracks separated. In fact you will prefer it if using VePro and really will have the same workflow as other DAW's
> 
> also DP has excellent track management, searching for tracks, deciding which tracks to display in which window, etc... LogicPro fails miserably in this department.
> 
> 
> 
> V-Racks are absolutely no different in concept whatsoever then LogicPro's mixer. In LogicPro you have the arranger area with "tracks"...those tracks point to instruments in the mixer. The LogicPro mixer is like using a V-Rack in DP. Except in DP you can use as many V-rack mixers as you want. But you don't have to.
> 
> Additionally in DP you can choose to have the instrument hosted directly in the sequence if you want instead of using a V-Rack...on yes...its own instrument track.
> 
> Nothing about Vracks implies multi-timbral, but you can do that do off course if you want,.
> 
> 
> 
> no argument there. LogicPro is the only DAW that does this right now.
> 
> 
> 
> Awesome
> 
> 
> 
> Pre-Gen is good. Use it. Some plugins don't support it. Simple as that. There might be some situations where you don't want it on, even for some plugin that supports it, but I'm not aware of any myself.
> 
> 
> 
> Like all daws they range from adequate to awesome. But I will say their "instrument" plugins are just meh. actually pretty weak compared to logicPro which is simply awesome and Steinberg offers way better instruments too. its just kind of ok in that area, but their audio plugins are quite good and that is MOTU's forte anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> That will simply depend on you. Some people always find a way that they have to use Keyboard Maestro to get around something the program doesn't provide. But MOTU has been on top of this for a long time with a very good keyboard shortcut manager, etc.. It also has very extensive OSC support in case you want to get crazy with a touchpad.
> 
> Like all things, NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE OR WHAT YOU DO...you can try any DAW out there and love some of what it does and be annoyed that they can't seem to get some other things right. That is no different with DP. It has some really compelling features, already mentioned..that's why I'm using it. There is not a single DAW out there that doesn't have glaring annoyances that bother me....but at some point you just choose what is working best for you and live with the annoyances. None of them will be perfect. Period.
> 
> LogicPro is still a cool program, but I agree with you about Apple and how they are handling things, plus kind of a lot of serious bugs related to automation, PDC and other things, I just had to move on once MOTU finally added articulation management and bigger fonts.


Thanks dewdman. I understand that Logic is technically doing things the same way, there's still an upside to a single consolidated view where the MIDI and instrument visually appear as one entity. And not to get too _TMI_ but... I have dyslexia... Too many things to sift through and I get visual overload, which translates to finding myself lost even if something's staring me right in the face...

Yeah, I'm used to having to work with multichannel instances. It's actually one of the main reasons I don't use VEP anymore... It's fine for people who prefer it, I just like the direct approach of being able to discretely process anything uniquely if/when needed all in the same place. No need to tab back and forth for the occasional tweak, no need to set up automation rules in two different places if the need arises.

Maybe I'm missing something, but from what I watched yesterday using the "Instrument with options" feature, it seems that in the area where you see all of your 'track headers', you see two tracks for every discrete instrument. One MIDI track which correlates to one hosted instrument track... Multichannel solves this, however in my case 'one off' instruments are fairly common... I do a lot of trailer work these days and processing sounds so they have a unique fingerprint is a high priority, a priority specified in pretty much every brief. I often have to do some sound design at some point, which inevitably means I'm going to be working with some resampled custom instruments. Depending on the cue there might be a bunch of them..

So in my case _one off_ instruments are just part of the workflow. For orchestral instruments I'm fine working with a fixed set or 'racked' instruments if I have to... But a good 30-40% of a given cue needs to have some kind of sound design, samples that fit a specific parameter but aren't part of a standard template, etc.

This is where single instruments, (or at least instruments that behave as a consolidated single entity are really useful). On the orchestral/acoustic side I'm working with at least few hundred instruments, add another 100-200 unique sounds I curate for a multi-cue project and I'm easily working with discrete 400-600 track templates... When it comes to those 'one-off' sounds it seems like finding these in a 'track header' area that had two representations of these could get a little confusing... But I have yet to demo, and I know things can be put in folders so we'll see...




One of the videos I watched last night showed a workflow that looked like you can move the instrument portions to a v-rack after the fact which seems like it would solve the issue. I.e. You can set up a bunch of 'one-off' patches 1st, then move the VIs to a V-rack. But the video was short and I don't have the DAW in front of me yet so it's hard to know if I understood that correctly.




It's interesting you mention keyboard maestro. this is one of the things that's really starting to irritate me with Logic. (A lot more than that actually..) Every time they change the GUI they *#$! up my KM macros. Something that took a !lot! of time to set up... In the past 18 months alone they've made multiple GUI changes that broke various macros that relied on image recognition.




All DAWs have quirks, that's for sure... in the case of Logic the quirks are starting to become a real liability. I'm also worn down by Logic updates deprecating prior OS's. Apple's a big enough headache on their own, I don't need my DAW adding another one to the pile.


----------



## Dewdman42

jcrosby said:


> Maybe I'm missing something, but from what I watched yesterday using the "Instrument with options" feature, it seems that in the area where you see all of your 'track headers', you see two tracks for every discrete instrument. One MIDI track which correlates to one hosted instrument track...



You can put the Instruments in a V-Rack then you don't have to look at them, it will seem just like LogicPro where your sequence has only a midi track.. the instrument will be in the V-Rack...just like in LogicPro...the instrument is in the mixer.

You can also hide and show various kinds of tracks fairly easily, move things inside folders or whatever you want so that your main sequence view will show one row per instrument track.... I think you want to use V-Racks honestly, that is most like LogicPro.

once you create an instrument with options, getting two tracks, there is a command you can use to move the instrument track to a V-rack...and it just keeps working with all the connections intact and your main mixer and sequence view will just be showing you the midi track.

the only time you would want to see both midi track and instrument track in the main sequence...is when you will need to do automation on the instrument track.

Like I said, you can also organize tracks into folders so that you don't have to look at twin tracks every where you go. There are even some key commands to quickly show only midi tracks, etc.,.




jcrosby said:


> Multichannel solves this, however in my case 'one off' instruments are fairly common...



doesn't matter if its multi channel. Just put the instrument in a vrack. That is the same work flow as LogicPro. granted, a few steps to set up the track compared to one step in LogicPro.



jcrosby said:


> So in my case _one off_ instruments are just part of the workflow. For orchestral instruments I'm fine working with a fixed set or 'racked' instruments if I have to... But a good 30-40% of a given cue needs to have some kind of sound design, samples that fit a specific parameter but aren't part of a standard template, etc.



LogicPro is using a racked instrument also. Its racked in the mixer.



jcrosby said:


> This is where single instruments, (or at least instruments that behave as a consolidated single entity are really useful). On the orchestral/acoustic side I'm working with at least few hundred instruments, add another 100-200 unique sounds I curate for a multi-cue project and I'm easily working with discrete 400-600 track templates... When it comes to those 'one-off' sounds it seems like finding these in a 'track header' area that had two representations of these could get a little confusing... But I have yet to demo, and I know things can be put in folders so we'll see...



yes demo. Only you can decide if it will be too confusing for you, but all I can say is that MOTU provides quite a lot of options for organizing your tracks and you can use V-Racks and that should solve your concern about having to look at two tracks. Hey...I don't like looking at two tracks either. 

If you don't want to use V-Rack even though I think you should, then just make a folder and put all the instrument tracks inside that folder. Problem solved.




jcrosby said:


> One of the videos I watched last night showed a workflow that looked like you can move the instrument portions to a v-rack after the fact which seems like it would solve the issue. I.e. You can set up a bunch of 'one-off' patches 1st, then move the VIs to a V-rack. But the video was short and I don't have the DAW in front of me yet so it's hard to know if I understood that correctly.



yes. There is a command that takes any instrument track in a sequence and simply moves it to a V-Rack while maintaining all the right connections you setup with midi tracks.



jcrosby said:


> It's interesting you mention keyboard maestro. this is one of the things that's really starting to irritate me with Logic. (A lot actually!) Every time they change the GUI they *#$! up my KM macros. Something that took a !lot! of time to set up... In the past 18 months alone they've made multiple GUI changes that broke various macros that relied on image recognition.



I hear ya. Any of the daw's could potentially do that. In some cases you may get less of that with DP since you can use the command line tool to enter any command and have KM ddrive that sometimes. Sometimes though, it simply has to look at GUI widgets in order to get things done.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

If you use a V-Rack to host the instrument, can you still control the volume when you're working with the MIDI track? I notice DP has Console 1 support, but the plugin will be on the instrument track - wondering if it'll follow the track selection from the MIDI track though.


----------



## Dewdman42

Some other stuff you should look into is something called "Clippings" which might help you setup one-off instrument patches....similar as LogicPro patches...actually it can do quite a bit more then LogicPro Patches...but LogicPro patches might be more elegant for what they do..I leave that up to you.

And it sounds like you will want to get familiar with SoundBites


----------



## Dewdman42

ALittleNightMusic said:


> If you use a V-Rack to host the instrument, can you still control the volume when you're working with the MIDI track? I notice DP has Console 1 support, but the plugin will be on the instrument track - wondering if it'll follow the track selection from the MIDI track though.


if you need to automate anything that is not-midi, it can't be done in a V-Rack. But you can bus the audio from the V-Rack to an audio channel in the sequence and automate that, etc. 

This is one area I keep begging MOTU to improve, maybe4 they will some day. would like to be able to automate plugins and the actual V-Rack mixer, but for now...you can't.

The V-Rack itself does not have a timeline... and...only midi is sent from sequence-->V-Rack at this time.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Dewdman42 said:


> if you need to automate anything that is not-midi, it can't be done in a V-Rack. But you can bus the audio from the V-Rack to an audio channel in the sequence and automate that, etc.
> 
> This is one area I keep begging MOTU to improve, maybe4 they will some day. would like to be able to automate plugins and the actual V-Rack mixer, but for now...you can't.
> 
> The V-Rack itself does not have a timeline... and...only midi is sent from sequence-->V-Rack at this time.


Does that mean V-Racks don't show up in the mixer until you bus the audio out? Or you can't put any plugins on the V-Rack track until you bus it?


----------



## Dewdman42

No.


----------



## gzapper

Dewdman42 said:


> if you need to automate anything that is not-midi, it can't be done in a V-Rack. But you can bus the audio from the V-Rack to an audio channel in the sequence and automate that, etc.
> 
> This is one area I keep begging MOTU to improve, maybe4 they will some day. would like to be able to automate plugins and the actual V-Rack mixer, but for now...you can't.
> 
> The V-Rack itself does not have a timeline... and...only midi is sent from sequence-->V-Rack at this time.



I see that as problematic, as in once you start automating some chunks you have to make sure the next chunk starts in the right automation mode for you VI. But it would be great if the could do it.

I'd just be happy with them making the consolidated window work better, so you click on a midi track in the seq window and only that track opens when you click on the midi tab or mixer tab.

That and being able to actually change patches reliably in VI's.


----------



## machinesworking

gzapper said:


> I see that as problematic, as in once you start automating some chunks you have to make sure the next chunk starts in the right automation mode for you VI. But it would be great if the could do it.


 That part IMO is not that big of a deal. Snapshots already have DP creating automation between radically different settings, so this should be the case with consolidated Chunks. Plus you already have this with Chunks in the Song window. 


> I'd just be happy with them making the consolidated window work better, so you click on a midi track in the seq window and only that track opens when you click on the midi tab or mixer tab.


In the MIDI tab I agree, in the Mixer tab that's the default behavior with the Track window, and I hate it. If a MIDI or audio track is selected in the Tracks window because you were working on it and you hit command M to go to the Mixer only that track is selected, and I work mainly in the Track window. 


> That and being able to actually change patches reliably in VI's.


 It's funny I've never tried that, I thought about it, just haven't done it, is it random or do some VI's not work with DP's patch changes?


----------



## cmillar

jcrosby said:


> All DAWs have quirks, that's for sure... in the case of Logic the quirks are starting to become a real liability. I'm also worn down by Logic updates deprecating prior OS's. Apple's a big enough headache on their own, I don't need my DAW adding another one to the pile.


That's one reason why I stick with DP. It just works through various OSX changes, and still supports High Sierra with DP11. Runs better than ever!

Other reasons for sticking with DP are such as Dewman42 has gone over so well.

The latest version 11.04 is handling VI's better than ever with more 'breathing' room for the CPU.


----------



## gzapper

machinesworking said:


> That part IMO is not that big of a deal. Snapshots already have DP creating automation between radically different settings, so this should be the case with consolidated Chunks. Plus you already have this with Chunks in the Song window.
> 
> It's funny I've never tried that, I thought about it, just haven't done it, is it random or do some VI's not work with DP's patch changes?


Snapshots could do that, I assume. But at present you can't snapshot a v-rack.

There's been a patch change column in DP's track window since I started on 2.54. I used to use it with my really crappy outboard modules and it was handy. I've tried in the past to use it with Omnisphere, which says you can store patches with midi patch change numbers but it never reliably worked. Would have been useful on my previous intel laptops. Now with the M1 I have the power to just have way more softsynths open.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

kgdrum said:


> Motu tech support and customer service has improved over the last several years,I suspect if you call them on the phone they would reset your ability to demo DP again


I emailed them and they very quickly extended my demo by another 30 days - great customer service I'd say!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

The Groove 3 tutorials are pretty good for providing an overview. I'm not entirely sure I have the patience to stick with DP - it isn't too different from the other DAWs in terms of basic concepts but I'm just so fast with Cubase, Logic, and S1 right now that it is just frustrating to even learn DP's intricacies. There's unique features like using Chunks or per articulation delay but not sure the juice is worth the squeeze there.

I also tried using the BBCSO template and I've found DP is pretty unstable on my Mac - locks up / freezes on opening. I can't even open that template at all. Freezes the whole machine and I have to force quit DP.


----------



## machinesworking

ALittleNightMusic said:


> The Groove 3 tutorials are pretty good for providing an overview. I'm not entirely sure I have the patience to stick with DP - it isn't too different from the other DAWs in terms of basic concepts but I'm just so fast with Cubase, Logic, and S1 right now that it is just frustrating to even learn DP's intricacies. There's unique features like using Chunks or per articulation delay but not sure the juice is worth the squeeze there.
> 
> I also tried using the BBCSO template and I've found DP is pretty unstable on my Mac - locks up / freezes on opening. I can't even open that template at all. Freezes the whole machine and I have to force quit DP.


Honestly I've never experienced this but if it's locking up and freezing on scanning it's a plug in that's incompatible. I've become a DAW collector by mistake, and DP isn't any less stable than the others. People have reported a real hit or miss on Windows but in general I would say DP doesn't do well with plug ins it's not compatible with. The only good part about it being a much bigger deal on Windows is that MOTU should at some point make a more bullet proof system for dealing with plug ins etc. Maybe something like Bitwig. 

In terms of difference, it's important to not get lost in the weeds right away. Some things in DP like Chunks don't need to be explored until one is familiar with all the conventions that you use in Logic, Cubase etc.


----------



## cuttime

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I also tried using the BBCSO template and I've found DP is pretty unstable on my Mac - locks up / freezes on opening. I can't even open that template at all. Freezes the whole machine and I have to force quit DP.


Yes, I'd say DP is hanging up on scanning a plug. DP has a built-in crash reporter that phones home, but provides zero helpful information to the user. There is a terminal command that will help you get past the crash reporter so you can disable the offending plug. Details here:





__





Can't get past scanning on DP11 - Page 3 - MOTUnation.com






www.motunation.com


----------



## mrwhites

dcoscina said:


> AFAIK, DP is the only DAW to be able to do custom clicks. Meaning you can subdivide a 7/8 meter you could do 2,2,3 or 3,2,2 which is cool. I miss it when using LPX and Studio One


Cubase has that and it’s pretty powerful


----------



## Garlu

DP v11.1 is here!!!! 

And... now it has instrument tracks embeding the midi part as well!!! So, no more dual tracks (instrument/midi) when you want to use just one midi channel. Now it can be sequenced directly into the instrument track!!!! Finally!!!


----------



## machinesworking

Garlu said:


> DP v11.1 is here!!!!
> 
> And... now it has instrument tracks embeding the midi part as well!!! So, no more dual tracks (instrument/midi) when you want to use just one midi channel. Now it can be sequenced directly into the instrument track!!!! Finally!!!


Yep, MOTU are dead set on modernizing DP, it's fantastic because I mostly do modern music, but I can't give up on Chunks. Plus it looks like they listened to peoples specific Articulation channel complaints if I'm reading the Read Me correctly!


----------



## pinki

Finally.
There are bug fixes on the 11.1 list that have been unfixed for_ literally_ 20 years. What happened at Motu I wonder... new managers? Even Quickscribe got some attention.


----------



## Garlu

Thinking if I might be worth thinking on a “disabled” template…. 
Motu, would it be possible to include a shortcut for enable/disable track?? It seems there is not one for it yet!! 

And… “track record enable” by name (on a pop search) and not only by track number??? (Ctr + Shift + R) please!!!! 🙏🏻🙏🏻


----------



## machinesworking

pinki said:


> Finally.
> There are bug fixes on the 11.1 list that have been unfixed for_ literally_ 20 years. What happened at Motu I wonder... new managers?


I think it's about time for sure, but DP like any older DAW probably needed a lot of work under the hood just to implement all the features they have in the last 5 years, and some of the work coming out now had it's start back then. i.e. some bugs made more sense to fix once xyz improvements to the code were done... just a guess.


----------



## pinki

machinesworking said:


> I think it's about time for sure, but DP like any older DAW probably needed a lot of work under the hood just to implement all the features they have in the last 5 years, and some of the work coming out now had it's start back then. i.e. some bugs made more sense to fix once xyz improvements to the code were done... just a guess.


Sure. I mean I'm really happy to see this. I abandoned DP 2 years ago as it was no longer a viable DAW for me after 20 years of using it. It was a traumatic breakup. But it was completely unstable and the worst crash-fest... for a DAW that used to be the most solid in the industry. They had just lost their way, chasing the Ableton crowd etc. But I'm open to looking again if it becomes stable. DP is in my veins.


----------



## Dewdman42

Well, I got 11.1 to crash right away, so hopefully there will 11.11 pretty soon. 

We have instrument tracks now and hell didn't freeze over! I like it.

I see they added some support for articulation channeling, but they still missed the boat on that one, I have sent email already to MOTU support about what they still need to fix.


----------



## machinesworking

pinki said:


> Sure. I mean I'm really happy to see this. I abandoned DP 2 years ago as it was no longer a viable DAW for me after 20 years of using it. It was a traumatic breakup. But it was completely unstable and the worst crash-fest... for a DAW that used to be the most solid in the industry. They had just lost their way, chasing the Ableton crowd etc. But I'm open to looking again if it becomes stable. DP is in my veins.


As someone who has chased stability in the past I feel you, I switched to Logic 4 from DP 2 for a what in retrospect was a minor bug. I switched back around DP7 because it became useful to me and Logic 7 had been such a mess on my system. The only DAW I've used that's mostly bug free is Bitwig, and even that DAW has some weird GUI glitches occasionally. plus obviously it's bug free because it has a limited feature set and sandboxed plug ins.


----------



## pinki

machinesworking said:


> As someone who has chased stability in the past I feel you, I switched to Logic 4 from DP 2 for a what in retrospect was a minor bug. I switched back around DP7 because it became useful to me and Logic 7 had been such a mess on my system. The only DAW I've used that's mostly bug free is Bitwig, and even that DAW has some weird GUI glitches occasionally. plus obviously it's bug free because it has a limited feature set and sandboxed plug ins.


Ah DP...the golden years  DP 3, perfect. DP5..very good, I don't think it ever crashed once on me. DP9 was good too. But DP10..OMG


----------



## Monkey Man

DP 7.24 and 8.07 were _great_ too.

The _real_ disaster was DP6, specifically v6.13 IIRC.


----------



## machinesworking

Monkey Man said:


> DP 7.24 and 8.07 were _great_ too.
> 
> The _real_ disaster was DP6, specifically v6.13 IIRC.


Yep, 7 was gold, but honestly mostly Ive been OK, 10 and early 11 had a few issues but nothing to write home about. In all fairness I occasionally get a crash, but it's not anymore than other DAWs I've tried, barring Bitwig, if there's anything I would love to see them add in the future it's plug in sandboxing like Bitwig has. That's 99% of all crashes eliminated, well at least in Bitwig the DAW and the song don't crash only the plug in.


----------



## machinesworking

pinki said:


> Ah DP...the golden years  DP 3, perfect. DP5..very good, I don't think it ever crashed once on me. DP9 was good too. But DP10..OMG


 There were a lot of people who had issues with DP around the time of 9, probably because that's when NextGen PreGen™ (lol at MOTUs aggressive branding there!), was introduced. I did not, but I think mainly it's because I hadn't started using VEP that much. I seem to recall it affecting VEP setups more.


----------



## dts_marin

Waiting for the next minor version. 11.1 is very unstable for me. Too many crashes both on MacOS and Windows.

It's kinda sad that DP has always been the most crash prone software I've used. And the crashes seem always really unpolished and not on par with similarly priced DAWs. All software crash occasionally but nothing like DP, especially on Windows.

DP11 is better in some places but each version is broken by something else. 

On a positive note, I really like the new features.


----------



## Al Maurice

In some ways DP 11.1 seems slightly slicker in terms of being more responsive, less glitchy on playback.

Yet somewhere along the way, the CPU seems to spike more.

Also on closing DP, it still remains crash prone and that needs addressing, as some versions crash here less and others more.


----------



## resonate

Do you guys experience very slow-like couple of seconds-lag when switching tabs midi/sequence/etc with a session that has video loaded? cmp 5,1 here


----------



## Al Maurice

resonate said:


> Do you guys experience very slow-like couple of seconds-lag when switching tabs midi/sequence/etc with a session that has video loaded? cmp 5,1 here


For me it's not just video, switching between tabs is sluggish at best.


----------



## dts_marin

Yes, very sluggish when switching to the MIDI tab/window during playback. It freezes for about a second.


----------



## machinesworking

Experienced slow switching only upon first installing. It's fine now.


----------



## pinki

11.1
I'm ..tentatively..dipping my toe back in the DP water with this release of a (possibly) stable version of DP. 

So far so good. No crashes for 2 days. DP10 was a crash per 2 minutes.. so I gave up on DP and went to Studio One

But man Studio One: at first it feels all lovely and friendly and full of possibility and _so_ _easy_ to do everything, all about the workflow, but then, after a year and a half I realise it it has no _visual or conceptual hierarchy at all._

Just taking the visual aspect: everything is just visually a bland mess of meaningless symbols all on the same hierarchical level. Switch back to DP and it's just so obviously a better visual experience with more important things standing out and things that are not important less visible. It's such a basic design concept.. flat design doesn't mean flat hierarchically.

DP's consolidated window- a joy. DP's mixer- a joy (Studio One's mixer..er hello!) I could go on.

I need DP back, but please, no more of the crash-fest thing Motu?


----------



## gzapper

pinki said:


> 11.1
> I'm ..tentatively..dipping my toe back in the DP water with this release of a (possibly) stable version of DP.
> 
> So far so good. No crashes for 2 days. DP10 was a crash per 2 minutes.. so I gave up on DP and went to Studio One
> 
> But man Studio One: at first it feels all lovely and friendly and full of possibility and _so_ _easy_ to do everything, all about the workflow, but then, after a year and a half I realise it it has no _visual or conceptual hierarchy at all._
> 
> Just taking the visual aspect: everything is just visually a bland mess of meaningless symbols all on the same hierarchical level. Switch back to DP and it's just so obviously a better visual experience with more important things standing out and things that are not important less visible. It's such a basic design concept.. flat design doesn't mean flat hierarchically.
> 
> DP's consolidated window- a joy. DP's mixer- a joy (Studio One's mixer..er hello!) I could go on.
> 
> I need DP back, but please, no more of the crash-fest thing Motu?


DP 10 was solid, DP 11 has been solid for me. Though I foolishly updated waves to 13 to see if I could get vocal blender to work again, of course it wasn't covered by WUP so had to WUP that too. But now I'm finding some Waves things crash DP. Which makes me think when people complain about DP crashing they should talk about what plugs do that. Most don't. NI, mostly Izotope, PSP, Fab Filter and a bunch seem great. I went about 3 months without DP crashing and now with Waves its crashed 3 times in the last week. And that's migrating an 2017 macbook pro to an M1 Max on a system that's had system migrations from OS9. 

So please, if you've got crashes, list the plugs you were working with at the time.

Oh, and if you're giving DP joy, my biggest shoutout is to chunks. Working a big theatre piece on my m1 Max macbook pro with about 350 chunks, 54 gigs RAM and its screaming fast and solid. Other than waves. Chunks makes big shows with a ton of cues so much easier.


----------



## Sergievsky

Ya 11.1 is pretty good, best one so far I think. I was ready to dump DP for good with the 11.0/11.01/.02 releases. .03 made me wait, then .04 i thought ok maybe i’ll stay. 11.1, especially with the new midi on the instrument track, has been great. And yes, chunks is awesome, but what keeps me is the very simple yet mind-boggingly-unavailable-in-Logic wait-for-note option.


----------



## pinki

gzapper said:


> DP 10 was solid, DP 11 has been solid for me. Though I foolishly updated waves to 13 to see if I could get vocal blender to work again, of course it wasn't covered by WUP so had to WUP that too. But now I'm finding some Waves things crash DP. Which makes me think when people complain about DP crashing they should talk about what plugs do that. Most don't. NI, mostly Izotope, PSP, Fab Filter and a bunch seem great. I went about 3 months without DP crashing and now with Waves its crashed 3 times in the last week. And that's migrating an 2017 macbook pro to an M1 Max on a system that's had system migrations from OS9.
> 
> So please, if you've got crashes, list the plugs you were working with at the time.
> 
> Oh, and if you're giving DP joy, my biggest shoutout is to chunks. Working a big theatre piece on my m1 Max macbook pro with about 350 chunks, 54 gigs RAM and its screaming fast and solid. Other than waves. Chunks makes big shows with a ton of cues so much easier.


DP10 crash-fest was unfortunately nothing to do with plugins. I used DP every day since DP3 so have a detailed view of its stability over decades. In the end I ran DP10 with no plugins, just making simple recordings and it still crashed..this on several different Macs. The whole “it’s not DP it’s one of your plugins” argument, believe me, did not apply to me (have a look at Gearspace around the time if you want further proof!).

DP11.1…looking at the ”fixed” list reveals a huge list of longstanding bug fixes. That is why 11.1 might just, hopefully, finer-crossedlly, be a turning point for DP.

(I wonder if this …possibly new phase at Motu…means their virtual instruments might get some attention: Mach Five, BPM, Ethno, Symphonic Instrument, are all listed for sale on the site but are basically abandon-ware.)


----------



## gzapper

pinki said:


> DP10 crash-fest was unfortunately nothing to do with plugins. I used DP every day since DP3 so have a detailed view of its stability over decades. In the end I ran DP10 with no plugins, just making simple recordings and it still crashed..this on several different Macs. The whole “it’s not DP it’s one of your plugins” argument, believe me, did not apply to me (have a look at Gearspace around the time if you want further proof!).
> 
> DP11.1…looking at the ”fixed” list reveals a huge list of longstanding bug fixes. That is why 11.1 might just, hopefully, finer-crossedlly, be a turning point for DP.
> 
> (I wonder if this …possibly new phase at Motu…means their virtual instruments might get some attention: Mach Five, BPM, Ethno, Symphonic Instrument, are all listed for sale on the site but are basically abandon-ware.)


Interesting. I've been on DP since 2.54. There were a couple of years it wasn't perfect from my end but has been pretty solid. I'm sure you've been through the trouble shooting, hope this version works as solidly for you as it does for me, though I'm saving the latest update for a couple of weeks when I finish two biggish shows.


----------



## Chamberfield

Did they finally fix the crash when exiting the app? That's been driving me nuts this past year.


----------



## Al Maurice

Chamberfield said:


> Did they finally fix the crash when exiting the app? That's been driving me nuts this past year.


Not from what I can see, I hoped it was a thing of the past, but the other day guess what: crash on exit


----------



## kgdrum

Al Maurice said:


> Not from what I can see, I hoped it was a thing of the past, but the other day guess what: crash on exit




I wonder if it’s some type of corrupted file or permission in DP that causes this. I was getting the crash on exiting DP for a while and when I recently updated DP it went away. I’m still on either DP11.02 or 11.03. I’m curious to see if i get the exit crash when i update to 11.1


----------



## dts_marin

I stopped getting crashes on exit on Windows after 11.01 fwiw. on MacOS I've never had this issue.

Sadly 11.1 for me has been a disaster in my case. Audition selection is broken and some other weird stuff I'm still discovering. Also the reshape tool is broken which is a big deal for my workflow.

MOTU has made great progress with DP11. They fixed bugs spanning over 20 years. Well, one could argue that those shouldn't be there in the first place and that's not something commendable but if the big companies like Apple, AVID and Steinberg struggle with bugs then you know those things can be super tricky to fix. DAWs are massively complex applications.

It's almost unfair to MOTU considering the competition. For such a small company they are doing great.

Stability cost them a lot of notable users. Lots of A list composers switched from DP during the 2010's. I hope they come back someday. All users are important but the notable ones bring with them lots of new (also young in age) users and DP *desperately* needs younger users.

They still have a lot to do to improve DP as it's always the case. Some portions of it are really outdated and the UX is really bad.


----------



## HCMarkus

I have been using just about every version of DP since Performer 1.x. My experience with DP10.13 was excellent for audio under macOS 10.14.6 (Mojave) on my 12 Core 5,1 Mac Pro. Working with video, the GUI got very slow at times.

My experience with DP11.1 A.S. Native under macOS 12.3.1 on my Mac Studio Ultra has been overall excellent... super responsive and powerful, but I have had several "POOF - GONE" DP crashes as I work on a score to video. However, re-opening DP is so fast on the new machine, I have not been very bothered by the crashes. I fully expect things to get even better as more plugins move to Native and MOTU's programmers address issues that arise on the new platform.

A few specifics off the top of my head:

No issues identified following running *Native under DP11.1*:
NI Kontakt 
Spitfire Plugin
Arturia VIs and Plugins
Audio Modeling V3
Waves V13
Soundtoys
Eventide 
PSP 
MOTU MAS Plugins
FabFilter

Running *as Rosetta* within DP 11.1 Native:
MODO Bass
Ivory* (Must be authorized under DP Rosetta)
Altiverb* (Must be authorized under DP Rosetta)
Wallander WIVI Band
Audio Modeling V2
NI Battery* (Not retaining preset assignment)
Soothe

Not Working under DP Native:
NI FM8, Absynth
BFD3

Note that Altiverb works perfectly as a Rosetta plugin within DP Native, but needs to be installed and authorized with DP in Rosetta Mode. Same install procedure with Ivory, but it has caused issues with a few, but not most, of my project imported from DP13.

BFD3 (latest version) will work fine on Intel Macs but causes DP to crash on quit (every time) running under Intel. An earlier version works fine and does not cause the crash on quit.

BFD3 will not run within DP11.1 on Apple Silicon Native at this time. I may work if DP11.1 is running in Rosetta Mode. I got it to install when DP was running under Rosetta, but haven't tested with DP under Rosetta.


----------



## pinki

This is all really useful info. I'm not feeling so confident about 11.1 now.

I have the 30-day demo so I'll cane it and see what happens.


----------



## JohnG

I'm using DP 11.1 and had few / no serious problems. One custom key switch I've used in the past has caused problems but it's easy to work around it, and anyway they said they'd fix it at some point.

I'm also very pleased to see so many bug fixes!!!

And I still love Chunks and Quickscribe.


----------



## pinki

John can I ask if experience a crash when using the "split notes into display-only/playback-only notes" command in the Quickscribe mini-menu? When I do this, it does split as expected but when I use the global filter to view either/or, notes disappear and DP crashes after a few uses of the filter.

I reported it to Motu last year and they acknowledged it and I _thought _11.1 had fixed it, but alas it seems not.


----------



## AEF

11.1 has been good for me, with a few crashes here and there. 

The only thing that I have never gotten used to is the convoluted way you have to set up playback from previous play position. Too many clicks and changing of tools and settings to do something that is basically standard way of playback in every other DAW.


----------



## AlexRuger

AEF said:


> Too many clicks and changing of tools and settings to do something that is basically standard way of playback in every other DAW.


This can be said about a lot of DP, unfortunately. 

That said, the key command highlight/select the transport text would probably make your life a lot easier for this specific problem.


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## machinesworking

AEF said:


> 11.1 has been good for me, with a few crashes here and there.
> 
> The only thing that I have never gotten used to is the convoluted way you have to set up playback from previous play position. Too many clicks and changing of tools and settings to do something that is basically standard way of playback in every other DAW.


 I prefer the way DP does it. In Live, Reaper, Bitwig etc. I've always hated that you can't permanently set a play position outside of a loop/cycle point, they basically set it for you based on your last start or double clicking etc. In DP you can tell DP where the start position is, not defined by your last play position. I get why someone would like it the way Live etc. do it, I just personally find it annoying.


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## Al Maurice

I would think every DAW has their idiosyncracies, most just copy the big 3 (seeing as they were released first), and then they just copy the others too.


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## kgdrum

Is anyone using Kontakt 6.7.1 in DP11? Either 11.02 successfully ?

I want to get Massive Gongs from Edu Prado which requires Kontakt 6.7.1 
I have been hesitating upgrading Kontakt from K6.6.1 because i seem to recall people having issues with Kontakt 6.7.0.

Thanks


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## arcy

Guys, what about DP 11.1 on Windows?


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## sinkd

AEF said:


> 11.1 has been good for me, with a few crashes here and there.
> 
> The only thing that I have never gotten used to is the convoluted way you have to set up playback from previous play position. Too many clicks and changing of tools and settings to do something that is basically standard way of playback in every other DAW.


What's so hard about hitting the F1 key?


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## HCMarkus

kgdrum said:


> Is anyone using Kontakt 6.7.1 in DP11? Either 11.02 successfully ?
> 
> I want to get Massive Gongs from Edu Prado which requires Kontakt 6.7.1
> I have been hesitating upgrading Kontakt from K6.6.1 because i seem to recall people having issues with Kontakt 6.7.0.
> 
> Thanks


No issues with DP11.1 and Kontakt, but I'm on Apple Silicon


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## kgdrum

HCMarkus said:


> No issues with DP11.1 and Kontakt, but I'm on Apple Silicon



You retired the 5,1?


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## JohnG

kgdrum said:


> Is anyone using Kontakt 6.7.1 in DP11


Yes. So far it seems to work the same as ever. I'm on 11.1 which I like because it fixed a number of problems.

[edit: I have a monster 2019 Mac Pro rack mount, with oodles of RAM and 16 cores, fwiw. Big Sur]

DP has cleaned up dozens (hundreds?) of bugs with the last two releases. I'm so excited. It already had all the functionality I wanted, so these fixes could not be more welcome.


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## JohnG

pinki said:


> John can I ask if experience a crash when using the "split notes into display-only/playback-only notes"


I'll PM you.


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## kgdrum

JohnG said:


> Yes. So far it seems to work the same as ever. I'm on 11.1 which I like because it fixed a number of problems.
> 
> [edit: I have a monster 2019 Mac Pro rack mount, with oodles of RAM and 16 cores, fwiw. Big Sur]
> 
> DP has cleaned up dozens (hundreds?) of bugs with the last two releases. I'm so excited. It already had all the functionality I wanted, so these fixes could not be more welcome.




Thanks,great information 👍


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## machinesworking

Al Maurice said:


> I would think every DAW has their idiosyncracies, most just copy the big 3 (seeing as they were released first), and then they just copy the others too.


Hmm? The big three released first would be Logic, DP, and Cubase. I'm pretty sure you're referring to Logic, Cubase and Pro Tools though.


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## HCMarkus

kgdrum said:


> You retired the 5,1?


Semi... KG, The 12 core had a great run and is still holding down its place in the machine closet, just in case! It can be back online quickly if I switch a couple of USB cables. The Cheesegrater now shares its home with my Mac Studio Ultra, which despite its relatively diminutive size, completely smokes the 5,1. And does so with only a whisper of fan noise. Most importantly, the Studio has demonstrated a solid ability to open DP10.13 files under DP11.1 without a complaint.


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## EgM

arcy said:


> Guys, what about DP 11.1 on Windows?



Wondering the same, DP10 on Windows is unusable.


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## pinki

I wanted to share some workflow tips if you have a Streamdeck or Faderport that I've just discovered: 

Stream Deck: buy the Studio One Streamdeck pack from sideshowfx: https://www.sideshowfx.net/studio-one-pro-stream-deck
It's really very well designed and beautiful and ergonomic. Then open the Commands window in DP and match up all the shortcuts! Some will not be relevant and there is some clever programming from sideshowfx which is for Studio One only, but..if like me you find it tedious creating the icons for your Streamdeck this is $35 well spent. 

Faderport: if you have a Faderport use Keyboard Maestro https://www.keyboardmaestro.com/main/
to make all the buttons that don't work with Motu's (pretty poor) MCU Faderport implementation. Keyboard Maestro will pick up the midi notes from the Faderport buttons and then it's really easy to convert them to keystrokes for the Commands window.

Hope that's useful.


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## JohnG

pinki said:


> Hope that's useful.


great idea, @pinki. I have a StreamDeck with tons of buttons.


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## dts_marin

arcy said:


> Guys, what about DP 11.1 on Windows?


YMMV

I have a PC with an i9-9900K, 128GBs of RAM, everything on SSDs.

I'd say it's still a reasonably powerful machine. DP thinks otherwise.

I've noticed some parts of the GUI are very inefficient. The worst one being the continuous data drawing code.

It freezes DP for a few seconds to calculate the points. On my pathetic 2016 base model MBP the same process is almost instant.

Also sometimes DP hogs on the CPU in ways that don't make sense to me.
I have a pretty nice CPU cooler Noctua DH-15 but even that gets a bit too noisy for me when DP is loading something. It goes maximum throttle. All or nothing.

Other than that besides the usual DP buginess nothing extraordinarily bad.


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## AEF

DP and streamdeck are perfect for each other. i am in the process of finishing a DP profile for it and the workflow is fantastic.


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## Al Maurice

Dp11.11 updates are now available for download, but can I find any release notes?

Anyone here know what's been changed or fixed?


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## HCMarkus

Al Maurice said:


> Dp11.11 updates are now available for download, but can I find any release notes?
> 
> Anyone here know what's been changed or fixed?





DP 11.11 released - MOTUnation.com


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## 60s Pop Man

The update notes are contained in the installer read me.


*Enhancements introduced in version 11.11

Enhancements and optimizations*

Include chord symbols in MusicXML export.
Improved VST3 support for some Arturia VIs.
Improved graphics resource efficiency on Windows, for better underlying performance primarily in views with large numbers of level meters.
Added a minor optimization to speed up opening files with lots of notes and/or lots of clips.

*Fixes*

Fixed a bug causing the Assign Colors window to not correctly update track colors on combined Instrument tracks.
Fixed a bug causing the reshape tool not to work on only selected data in the MIDI editor.
Fixed a Windows bug causing display issues in QS scores containing chord symbols with stacked suffixes.
Fixed a bug that prevented the UI for combined VI tracks from updating when during drags across the play state button in the SE.
Fixed a crash enabling/disabling an audio track in the mixing board.
Fixed an autoscrolling bug causing MIDI note durations to not immediately follow the mouse while autoscrolling, requiring a user to continuously move the mouse while using autoscroll to extend the note duration past the visible window in graphic editors.
Fixed a graphical glitch that could occur when autoscrolling to the beginning of the sequence while penciling in MIDI notes in graphic editors.
Fixed a Windows crash that can occur in the Sequence Editor with projects containing massive numbers of tracks.
Fixed snapshots of combined instrument tracks to use audio pan and volume rather than CC 7 and 10.
Fixed a bug that could cause pitch edits in relative mode to incorrectly reset subsequent pitch segments.
Fixed a subtle bug causing certain right-click contextual submenus (QuickScribe, Soundbites window) to omit the last item.
Fixed a crash that could occur when pressing enter to apply certain region ops which close their dialog boxes after applying.
Fixed a crash that could occur when DP receives MIDI that had been controlling a parameter.
Fixed an issue that could lead to incorrect direct text articulation editing behaviors in QS.
Fixed a Mac bug that could cause certain non-critical playback glitches to stop playback and show a generic "-50" error.
Fixed an issue where Articulation Map delay was causing playback to try to rewind before Tick zero.
Fixed a bug in which dragging midi notes in the Tracks window across conductor track tempo changes would cause confusing results if the time format was set to a realtime type while the ruler was showing measures.
Fixed a crash creating groups on combined instrument tracks in the mixing board.
Removed use of ATSFontDeactivate in our MAS plug-ins. It can cause a crash on quit and isn't necessary.
Fixed a bug that could cause CC pan/volume to be sent to VIs from combined instrument tracks without any visible indicator of the "default" value, when using combined VIs with the "send default MIDI vol and pan" automation setup pref enabled.
Fixed a bug causing nanosampler loop parameters not to update correctly.
Fixed a bug that could cause Clips window navigation not to work through the control surface API when the Clips window is popped out of the consolidated window.
Fixed a bug where polytouch events weren't being correctly converted to per note pressure events.
Fixed a bug where auditioning a note via dragging would play to the wrong channel.
Fixed a chase-related crash that could occur when editing clip data containing per-note events.
Fixed a crash importing multiple audio files into DP.
Fixed some cases where the behavior when adding a slur would not always match the selection correctly, requiring additional re-anchoring afterward.
Fixed a bug causing the Scale Time dialog to behave erratically after having customized the start time.
Fixed a crash that could occur on Windows when displaying certain combinations of articulations in QS.
Fixed a crash that could occur when deleting tracks.
Fixed a Windows bug that could cause single-clicking on chord symbols to incorrectly reset their position on the page.


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## arcy

Hi folks, with 11.2 are there any reasonable improvements on Windows?


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## dterry

arcy said:


> Hi folks, with 11.2 are there any reasonable improvements on Windows?


I haven't noticed any. For one, DP's GUI just isn't nearly as responsive on Windows as it is on OSX. The larger the project, the worse it is. The same large project (scoring template) on my Mac M1 acts as expected - quick to switch editors, smooth response from the GUI, etc.


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## Sergievsky

dterry said:


> I haven't noticed any. For one, DP's GUI just isn't nearly as responsive on Windows as it is on OSX. The larger the project, the worse it is. The same large project (scoring template) on my Mac M1 acts as expected - quick to switch editors, smooth response from the GUI, etc.


Would having a hi-end graphics card such as those used by serious gamers help with this?


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## Luzebel

Sergievsky said:


> Would having a hi-end graphics card such as those used by serious gamers help with this?


I have an RTX 3070ti and it doesn't help.


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## Al Maurice

Luzebel said:


> I have an RTX 3070ti and it doesn't help.


Have you tried going to Graphics Settings and specifying DP to use high performance for external GPU?


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## Pat Maddox

How do you navigate playback in a song chunk? Specifically, can I select an arbitrary point to play back from? And how can I play back from the same point each time?

I actually did manage to figure out some way of navigating playback by using song markers. I don't seem to be able to start playback from anywhere in the song window.. but if I click next to a marker in the markers window, it will set the transport to that location.

However, if I have "auto rewind" set then it always resets to 1.1.000 - and I'm trying to play the song back from position 6.1.000.

So is there any general guidance on using visual elements (markers and sequence chunks) to navigate a song? And how can I have the song consistently play back from a location that I've set?


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## machinesworking

Pat Maddox said:


> How do you navigate playback in a song chunk? Specifically, can I select an arbitrary point to play back from? And how can I play back from the same point each time?
> 
> I actually did manage to figure out some way of navigating playback by using song markers. I don't seem to be able to start playback from anywhere in the song window.. but if I click next to a marker in the markers window, it will set the transport to that location.
> 
> However, if I have "auto rewind" set then it always resets to 1.1.000 - and I'm trying to play the song back from position 6.1.000.
> 
> So is there any general guidance on using visual elements (markers and sequence chunks) to navigate a song? And how can I have the song consistently play back from a location that I've set?


It's best in that situation to just start from the Sequence Chunk. The Song window is best used as a sketch pad or a way to align various parts for a film, it does not have it's own full fledged Conductor track really so some elements of a Sequence Chunk are missing like auto rewind.


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## Luzebel

Al Maurice said:


> Have you tried going to Graphics Settings and specifying DP to use high performance for external GPU?


I can't find the option. Where is it located?


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## Al Maurice

Luzebel said:


> I can't find the option. Where is it located?


This is part of windows settings. If you go to the start bar and type 'graphics settings', and then browse to Digital Performer executable. Then once added select DP with your mouse, click on options and select 'high performance'.


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## Luzebel

Al Maurice said:


> This is part of windows settings. If you go to the start bar and type 'graphics settings', and then browse to Digital Performer executable. Then once added select DP with your mouse, click on options and select 'high performance'.


Ohh alright I'll try that, thanks!


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## HCMarkus

DP 11.21 released


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## GoofyTroop

stigc56 said:


> Well I was also quite excited about DP11, especially with the new VST articulation system. But I haven't managed to find any in depth video about how to use the system. I know literally everything  about building your own maps in Cubase, and fell in love with Soundvariations in S1, but DP is always a little bit "in the dark" about many features, I think. Anybody know if there are any in depth videos about these things?


I hear you!
I could share years of work by posting MOTU DP templates. (Dont know how to do it. Would save hrs of frustrations for people)I use allot of external midi gear. I AUX track external MIDI gear so it makes tracking a breeze. Most get hung up on how to record external Midi analog synths. 
I also have orchestral scores Templates. I use most library's (Vienna, Cinesamples, Project Sam, Eastwest, Orchestral Tools, Audio Bro, Cinimatic Strings, Best library's, Kontakt Ultimate). So my template's sorta mix the 1st kinda chairs ( best of each library). To create a great publishable sound. I found that no one library except Vienna can do it all good. But Vienna is in the big price range. They are doing much better at offering single instruments now for sale. There software is the BEST! It runs so solid! I am using the Vienna Suite now for everything. I have two mac Pro’s one using Mojave one running Sierra. Vienna software allows me to not have to mess with a big console any more. Just do it all over Ethernet. Amazing tech. Set up main daw as server, then attach instruments from other mac over ethernet. Then i can do live recordings instead of tracking hundreds of tracks.. Saves 100’s of hrs. Like a real live date. Mix it, play it, then record it to stems in one pass! So cool. I am willing to upload my templates! Just dont know how. 

I am not using Steinberg anymore. 
They keep deleting account with over $27,000 of software licenses, sounds, equipment etc. because i posted recommendations contrary to there marketing agenda. Not a professional Hollywood composer friendly company any more. People should transition to company's that dont use “leased software” with monthly fees. Its robbery. Steinberg is going to internet connection required to authenticate software on every use. 
And monthly fees. Its a con and big ripoff. So read your “upgrade consent in its entirety” they also backload there new software with trackers and still your usage data, websites visited and sell it to third party's. Not my choice for professionals. I purchase software and own it! And do NOT need internet EVER to use it or make money with it, ilok, usb keys great! But needing internet to use my purchased software, and stealing my private info is a no go for me. Make sure you all read there license agreement! Dont click OK without reading it. You will be really mad and say WTF? Vienna is sooo awesome for moving to ilok! There are the leaders in world. For those needing MOTU DP11 Templates let me know. I will donate. They will get you up and running without needing whisky and aspirin.


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## GoofyTroop

Toecutter said:


> Thanks for sharing, that was a great read!  I'm ready to give DP another try when MOTU improves Windows performance and sort all issues, I sent a long report but never heard back.


Login to MOTU website, fill out tech ticket. It takes a few days but some awesome and smart people do support. I am a Mac guy fir music. I own 3 Pc’s but use them for excel, word, Solid-works, Call of duty gaming etc. If they dont get back to you please let me know! I will make them. Ha


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## GoofyTroop

gzapper said:


> Nice post, I migrated from Studio Vision to DP 2.54, with a few side tracks to try logic/protools and a few others. I hear you.
> 
> I haven't tried this, and will maybe next week, but could you build a console to do this and save it in DP clippings? Then maybe just map it to one button on an external controller for when you need it? Or add a track that fires that console to clippings as well?


Awesome idea. I am going to try it!
JL Cooper used to make me custom boxes. I am old now… I will read up.
Like a “Panic” red button. It sends controller # 122 and volumes, pitch bend, modulation, expression, breath controller, sustain pedal, all notes off. 
Resets all MIDI to null or default values. And turns off all stuck notes.
Then you dont have to spend hrs finding out cut and paste in first clarinet had #11 set to 40 instead of 127 so you wrote another line in vibes or harp to bring it out.


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## dterry

HCMarkus said:


> DP 11.21 released


Anyone know where the update/bug fix notes are now for DP? They used to be posted with the downloads, but I can't find them anywhere. Working on a bug with MOTU and curious to see if it was already found and fixed, or if this covers something else.


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## cuttime

dterry said:


> Anyone know where the update/bug fix notes are now for DP? They used to be posted with the downloads, but I can't find them anywhere. Working on a bug with MOTU and curious to see if it was already found and fixed, or if this covers something else.


They are posted in the installer.


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## dterry

cuttime said:


> They are posted in the installer.


Thanks. That's what I originally thought. I'll keep looking. So far nothing in the install folder, installer zip file, DP's help system, or in the installation record folder.


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## HCMarkus

Start the installation; you can abort if you don’t want to actually install


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## dterry

HCMarkus said:


> Start the installation; you can abort if you don’t want to actually install


Thank you - I tried that a couple of times but if that version is already installed, the installer quits saying setup is complete. No sign of release notes. It's just a maintenance release, and isn't worth the time to uninstall DP just for that. Thanks for the suggestions anyway. I figured it was somewhere in the installer now. I'll look for them during the next update.


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## HCMarkus

dterry said:


> Thank you - I tried that a couple of times but if that version is already installed, the installer quits saying setup is complete. No sign of release notes. It's just a maintenance release, and isn't worth the time to uninstall DP just for that. Thanks for the suggestions anyway. I figured it was somewhere in the installer now. I'll look for them during the next update.


Here ya' go:

Enhancements introduced in version 11.21

Enhancements and optimizations
• Changed Beat based Audio to MIDI to ignore disabled beats.
• Changed default key-binding of "Add Multiple Unassigned Instruments" from cmd-shift-opt-I to cmd-shift-opt-U. It was conflicting with "Add Instruments With Options." 
• Tweaked the VST3 validator to pass Arturia plug-ins.

Fixes
• Fixed a crash when setting Polar I/Os.
• Fixed a problem where ARA preview effects were not being installed when duplicating tracks.
• Tweaked the code the removes MIDI tracks from v-racks to avoid a crash.
• Fixed a problem in VST2 and VST3 wrappers where tempo would double if the current meter had 8 as the denominator.
• Fixed a crash that could occur when opening a control surface effect selection list on installs containing effects with long names.
• Fixed a problem where you couldn't use the track assigns dialog on combined instrument tracks.
• Fixed a problem where the display of MIDI inputs on tracks wouldn't update when using the track assigns dialog.
• Fix crash when using scrub tool in waveform editor.


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## Sergievsky

Luzebel said:


> Ohh alright I'll try that, thanks!


Did you ever try out this graphic setting and did it improve? I'm looking for more info on DP in windows...


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## resonate

GoofyTroop said:


> For those needing MOTU DP11 Templates let me know. I will donate. They will get you up and running without needing whisky and aspirin.


Hello! you can upload the templates you want to share by going to https://ufile.io/ and drag and dropping the files into the website, then sharing the link! Thank you so much!


----------

