# Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes *FINAL VERSION*



## Bunford

Here's my second piece of work. I'm using a few movie scores as study tracks to understand the composition of them, music theory, mixing and mastering etc, and a Cubase 6.5 newbie so a fairly hefty learning curve!

My first track was Danny Elfman's Ice Dance from Edwards Scissorhands (http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3655140) and here you have Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes. Any constructive criticism would be hugely appreciated from this great community!

Cheers! o-[][]-o 

NEW FINAL VERSION:
[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F65087672&secret_url=false[/flash] 
Thanks Resoded! :D

TRAILER VIDEO: 


PROJECT VIDEO:


MY ORIGINAL VERSION: 
[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F64461997&secret_url=false[/flash] 

ORIGINAL HZ VERSION: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG1u6F7HjsQ


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## Ganvai

*Re: Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes*

Hey Bunford,

never listened to the original score but this sounds a little bit static and midi. The strings are very muddy and the bassdrum sounds a little bit like plastic and the reverb on the drum is to small (it doesn't sound really big). I don't know if it sounds like this in the movie but I don't like this drumsound.

So another problem is that the song doesn't live. Seems like everything is quantized on velocity and timing to 100%. This kills especially the string-line. The strings sound a little bit like copy/paste, too. Also I know there are moments in life when you can use copy/paste, this time it's to much. 

Also you could use a reverb and a compressor on the whole track, just to let it sound like everything is in one room.

A lot of critics, but I don't want to offend you. I think you are on a good way to learn how to work with midi-orchestra.

Best regards, 
Jan


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## Rctec

*Re: Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes*

Hey, I wrote it.... Don't listen to that idiot with his conventional ideas! It's pretty good. In fact, everything in "Sherlock" is quantized - especially the Cimbalom, the bass and the perc.There is hardly any reverb in the original track, and the violin and cello are super closed mic'ed. But you loose the "Oompah" feeling in a few places, especially at the end of phrazes. But the underlying rhythm sounds wrong, and so do the stringlines. Start by getting the basic groove right. But... not as bad as I thought it would be! 
Hz


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## EthanStoller

*Re: Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes*

I love this forum. :D


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## rayinstirling

*Re: Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes*

The first thing I did before commenting was to go listen to the original. How else can we make comparisons?
And ok I would say it now but my first thought was the groove. A problem I often have with my own cues.

Ray


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## Ganvai

*Re: Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes*



Rctec @ 23rd October 2012 said:


> Hey, I wrote it.... Don't listen to that idiot with his conventional ideas! It's pretty good. In fact, everything in "Sherlock" is quantized - especially the Cimbalom, the bass and the perc.There is hardly any reverb in the original track, and the violin and cello are super closed mic'ed. But you loose the "Oompah" feeling in a few places, especially at the end of phrazes. But the underlying rhythm sounds wrong, and so do the stringlines. Start by getting the basic groove right. But... not as bad as I thought it would be!
> Hz



I'm asking myself what might be wrong about the idea giving library string lines a little bit more live without quantizing it to 100% in velocity and timing. Yeah, conventional, but very helpfull all the times when your string lines sound a little bit static.


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## Rctec

You should ask yourself why your sentimental programming would be appropriate to this piece.
The whole pice - since I know you haven't heard it( what's wrong with YouTube?) is in a very Germanic (know what I mean? Feels like home?) regimented feel. Think Kurt Weill "Kanoen Lied". It's trying to maintain an objective sound, dispensing with any German romanticism. It is an anthem to the Neue Sachlichkeit. Plus, that lost virtue of German culture - a sligh, absurd wit. Kurt Tucholsky has a bear in a pub in Stepney. Case Closed.
Hz


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## Bunford

*Re: Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes*



Rctec @ Tue 23 Oct said:


> Hey, I wrote it.... Don't listen to that idiot with his conventional ideas! It's pretty good. In fact, everything in "Sherlock" is quantized - especially the Cimbalom, the bass and the perc.There is hardly any reverb in the original track, and the violin and cello are super closed mic'ed. But you loose the "Oompah" feeling in a few places, especially at the end of phrazes. But the underlying rhythm sounds wrong, and so do the stringlines. Start by getting the basic groove right. But... not as bad as I thought it would be! ��
> Hz



Cheers for the pointers HZ! 

It was always going to be an original mix to revisit and tweak after the constructive feedback, and with advice from the person who wrote the song, it's a bit hard to ignore. I used far mic's and used a fair bit of various reverbs across the board so might strip it back down and rebuild too. I did consider going for a solo antique violin sampled with a close mic to get that rustic sound of Sherlock's standout violin. Will tinker some more today and hopefully re-post an updated version soon.

For the rhythm, it's mainly a back and forth between the tuba and the bass and cellos I've used, so will revisit them too.

Keep an eye out for an updated version in the next day or two!


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## Resoded

*Re: Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes*

So nice of you to take the time to give feedback Hans!


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## Ed

Rctec @ Tue Oct 23 said:


> The whole pice - since I know you haven't heard it( what's wrong with YouTube?)



o[]) :D

The original, in case anyone is too lazy to go find it:


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## germancomponist

Ed @ Tue Oct 23 said:


> Rctec @ Tue Oct 23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The whole pice - since I know you haven't heard it( what's wrong with YouTube?)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> o[]) :D
> 
> The original, in case anyone is too lazy to go find it:
Click to expand...



I remember, when I had the first listen to it, I got a big smile into my face. I love this kind! It is so well done!


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## zacnelson

Great work Bunford, as you know I thought your work on `Ice Dance' was excellent also. I admire your project of trying to re-create your favourite compositions, there are others here who have also achieved great success with similar attempts.

I felt that the low notes on the downbeat seemed like they were a bit behind the beat, it could just be a midi offset that needs to apply as some sample libraries have an earlier sample start point, I find I have to do this a lot. Little improvements like this will have a good effect of removing sluggishness. Looking forward to hearing what you do with your next version!


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## Phillip Lober

*Re: Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes*

An excellent attempt, but I'd fix that bass drum at the beginning. More of a boom if you could. 

Anyway, the real point here is the effort of tightness. The original track by Zimmer sounds incredibly tight to establish the quirkiness of the Holmes story as well as the dark undertones of the setting. The track should make you want to grind your teeth a bit because of the friction it contains..

Hard to explain.. but there's a lot of tension, tightness, friction, constraint, and resistance in the original track that isn't in your replication unfortunately, but that's alright. These things can be hard to pick up sometimes. 

I wonder if Hans would agree with me to an extent (recently discovered he tours the forum and has posted on this thread.. very starstruck right now).

Good luck with your journey!


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## Ed

*Re: Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes*



Phillip Lober @ Tue Oct 23 said:


> I wonder if Hans would agree with me to an extent (recently discovered he tours the forum and has posted on this thread.. very starstruck right now).



Im surprised Hans has time to read and post on a forum!


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## zacnelson

I suppose a rigid timing and the tension (as you described so well Phillip) would complement the mental state of a complex character like Sherlock Holmes. I haven't seen the film but after listening to the music on Youtube it seems to match my impressions of the personality of Sherlock Holmes.


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## Bunford

I'm currently working on it. Fixed the sounds, but still trying to get a bit of a groove and that 'tightness' in it to lift out the human tension from it. Very difficult with samples I'm finding (or might be my limited Cubase knowledge!

I love this soundtrack though, mainly cos it all feels like the constant battle and struggle in Sherlock's mind with the up and down melody to it, which I read as reflecting Sherlock's constant up and down and never quite sure where he is, mentally.


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## Joao Bernardo

*Re: Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes*

Hi,
Yes, don't know if it fits Sherlock's mental state or not, but everything in the original track is very tight, clear and strong. 
Bunford, keep working on it, you've got feedback from the actual composer, it can't get any better in terms of feedback.


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## Bunford

Switched out most of the samples, re-tweaked, currently trying humanise it via velocities (without tearing my hair out) and playing in some notes to get a better feel for it.

Hopefully have something to upload as a re-worked version tomorrow.


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## Bunford

Updated version now up for constructive critique. Going the right way or lost something in it and inadvertently and gone backwards?

Tried to get more clarity and less muddiness in the strings to get more "stringiness", tried to humanise majority of the instrument, fiddled with quantize and velocity settings, tried to bring the entire song more up front and closer (using close mic's as per the writer's advice) and tried to remove most of the reverbs out of there bar a couple of subtle ones to try and make it sound more real and oldie-worldy rather than a big epic reverberated sound. Also tried to get more 'boom' into the drum hits. Also tried to get it all to sound a bit more bassy, growlier and punchier and the original seems to have very bass-heavy sounding stings, in particular.

As usual, any comments on improving, going in right direction, going in wrong direction etc would be appreciated!


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## Markus S

*Re: Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes*



Ganvai @ Tue Oct 23 said:


> Hey Bunford,
> 
> never listened to the original score but this sounds a little bit static and midi. The strings are very muddy and the bassdrum sounds a little bit like plastic and the reverb on the drum is to small (it doesn't sound really big). I don't know if it sounds like this in the movie but I don't like this drumsound.
> 
> So another problem is that the song doesn't live. Seems like everything is quantized on velocity and timing to 100%. This kills especially the string-line. The strings sound a little bit like copy/paste, too. Also I know there are moments in life when you can use copy/paste, this time it's to much.
> 
> Also you could use a reverb and a compressor on the whole track, just to let it sound like everything is in one room.
> 
> A lot of critics, but I don't want to offend you. I think you are on a good way to learn how to work with midi-orchestra.
> 
> Best regards,
> Jan



Wow, HZ just called you an idiot, this should make your day.


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## Bunford

Still tweaking this. Learnt a lot in doing this track though and will revisit my Danny Elfman track and rework it a bit. 

One thing I'm lacking is the North African/Eastern European wqrbling sounding violin for the main solo violin bits that pop up in the track.


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## Bunford

Some late night work going on here in home studio! Had to mix into headphones so may be some issues. Used a pair of Sennheiser HD headphones to mix and then a set of Beats Audio headphones for reference. This mix seemed to sound fairly good in both capturing the bass and high end and getting clarity and power on my end

Rather than simply trying to emulate the original, I've tried to make my own take of it and tried to make it sound as close, but a bit bigger and boomier, though obviously it's only other people that can say whether I've succeeded or failed!

However, a fresh pair of ears would be good so let me know what you think as I've listened to this to death!

Thanks HZ for making such a catchy riff. Been whistling so much while working on it that my girlfriend has been sharpening the knife ready to stab me the next time I whistle it!


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## Bunford

Any feedback on the tweaked version?!


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## zacnelson

I think it is an enormous improvement, bravo Bunford. I'd love to hear you take the template of what you created here, and perhaps compose something of your own because I think the process of emulating Discombobulate has enabled you to refine your palette of sounds and mixing/mastering to the point that you could now focus purely on composing without worrying as much about getting the sounds right. Also I think it might be easier to work on something where you are not constantly having to compare to the original. I know in my experience I have never even been able to copy songs I recorded previously MYSELF let alone capture what another musician has created!!!


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## ghostnote

*Re: Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes *FINAL VERSION (maybe?!)**

hi there bunford. Great piece, maybe a little "boomy", tip for a better mix: try to roll off the bass (with a loudness EQ) and center everything below 150-200Hz to Mono. Here's a freeware plugin for that http://www.toneprojects.com/products/plug-ins/basslane/

keep it up!


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## Bunford

Updated with my final version now. Also, updated the trailer vid on the YouTube link and uploaded a dual monitor project video of the play through for an idea of the setup (though not great quality sorry, still new to all this screen capturing!).

Enjoy, and always grateful for any positive or negative constructive comments and feedback!


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## Ned Bouhalassa

Too flat, IMHO, due to the lack of dynamics/headroom. Once the little intro is finished, everything sounds like it's fighting for the front of the soundstage. Too much compression or limiting?


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## Bunford

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun 28 Oct said:


> Too flat, IMHO, due to the lack of dynamics/headroom. Once the little intro is finished, everything sounds like it's fighting for the front of the soundstage. Too much compression or limiting?



Interesting. I'll look into this tonight probably and maybe tweak a bit.

I've barely use a compressor, but I have used a stereo enhancer and a limiter and maximiser on it. Perhaps it's sucked some of the dynamics out, but I'll have a look this evening.

I think I went for the loud punchiness, so maybe compromised a bit too much to get it.


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## Ned Bouhalassa

Limiters and Maximizers reduce dynamic range.


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## The White Knight

*Re: Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes*



Markus S @ Thu Oct 25 said:


> Wow, HZ just called you an idiot, this should make your day.



Hey Ganvai ! don't be like that :






You were 95% right excepted about *timing* quantization. And the next time, if you are still alive, you should listen to the original version.

I used here timing quantization to 100% on cello, bass, drums but velocity quantization is useless (and you can use velocity quantization here only if your patch got round robin or humanizer)
There are also two subtle reverbs to bind things together and bring some air. Bunford version need air, too much compression, too much in the face, your cello line is too heavy, it must be lighter, you should use spiccato patch and not at maximum power, do not confuse sharpness with heaviness :

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F65259268&secret_url=false[/flash]


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## Vartio

Lol
Thats a really close match to the original tho


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## Andreas Moisa

Great Job White Knight!


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## rayinstirling

Hey! White Knight,
Is that an 80th birthday present for another composer who's name I can't quite remember :lol:


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## zacnelson

Wow! White Knight, you have done an incredible job with that mock-up, it's unbelievable how good it is. I notice you have only posted once on the forum, so welcome, I hope we can hear many more of your compositions and mock-ups in the future. I love the little LEGO Batman picture!! Classic!


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## Mihkel Zilmer

Haha brilliant!

Awesome job White Knight.


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## Ganvai

Hey White Knight, really nice track.

Also, I'm still alive. If you can't deal with critics, even if they are a little bit rude, you better never try to make filmmusic.


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## The White Knight

Thanks all !

Happy new year !


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## Hanu_H

*Re: Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes *FINAL VERSION (maybe?!)**



Michael Chrostek @ Sun Oct 28 said:


> hi there bunford. Great piece, maybe a little "boomy", tip for a better mix: try to roll off the bass (with a loudness EQ) and center everything below 150-200Hz to Mono. Here's a freeware plugin for that http://www.toneprojects.com/products/plug-ins/basslane/


Really interested on this Basslane plugin. How does this work within the orchestral context. What I mean is, when all the strings are panned to their playing positions, doesn't this mess up that for the basses?


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## Jordan Gagne

*Re: Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes *FINAL VERSION (maybe?!)**



Hanu_H @ Tue Jan 01 said:


> Michael Chrostek @ Sun Oct 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> hi there bunford. Great piece, maybe a little "boomy", tip for a better mix: try to roll off the bass (with a loudness EQ) and center everything below 150-200Hz to Mono. Here's a freeware plugin for that http://www.toneprojects.com/products/plug-ins/basslane/
> 
> 
> 
> Really interested on this Basslane plugin. How does this work within the orchestral context. What I mean is, when all the strings are panned to their playing positions, doesn't this mess up that for the basses?
Click to expand...


And a follow-up question: Is there a good AU plugin that is similar and works on a mac?


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## mark812

Izotope Ozone does this and much more.


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## germancomponist

It may bring satisfaction when one recites the poems of a famous poet. But, this satisfaction is nothing compared to the success that the poet himself got, because he had written the poems. ...


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## The White Knight

germancomponist @ Tue Jan 01 said:


> It may bring satisfaction when one recites the poems of a famous poet. But, this satisfaction is nothing compared to the success that the poet himself got, because he had written the poems. ...



that's true :

http://youtu.be/Ifnv_DJuyu4


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## germancomponist

The cool thing is that Hans has never made a secret of the fact that he is a fan of Morricone and is also influenced by Morricone. I see no problem here. Quite the contrary!


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## re-peat

mark812 @ Tue Jan 01 said:


> Izotope Ozone does this and much more.


Surely, inserting the mighty Ozone into a track simply to have some control over the stereowidth of the low end is overkill?
Here's four plugins that offer all the required funcionality for that purpose (narrowing the low-end) without bringing tons of unnecessary (and possibly resource-hungry) processing options into a mix:
- *Brainworx bx_control v2* http://www.brainworx-music.de/en/plugins/bx_control_v2
- *NuGen MonoFilter* http://nugenaudio.com/monofilter.php
- *Sonalksis StereoTools* http://www.sonalksis.com/stereotools.htm
- *MeldaProduction StereoProcessor* http://www.meldaproduction.com/mstereoprocessor/

_


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## ghostnote

*Re: Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes *FINAL VERSION (maybe?!)**



Jordan Gagne @ Tue Jan 01 said:


> Hanu_H @ Tue Jan 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michael Chrostek @ Sun Oct 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> hi there bunford. Great piece, maybe a little "boomy", tip for a better mix: try to roll off the bass (with a loudness EQ) and center everything below 150-200Hz to Mono. Here's a freeware plugin for that http://www.toneprojects.com/products/plug-ins/basslane/
> 
> 
> 
> Really interested on this Basslane plugin. How does this work within the orchestral context. What I mean is, when all the strings are panned to their playing positions, doesn't this mess up that for the basses?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And a follow-up question: Is there a good AU plugin that is similar and works on a mac?
Click to expand...


@hanu: The Basslane Plugin will (idealy) sum your subs up to Mono, which will lead to a clearer bass image. It's quite common in pop/rock music because of the speakers in clubs which are normally mono. Don't be shy, download and try to play around with it.

@jordan gagne: Sorry, I don't have a mac so I can't tell. Ozone5 might be in AU but I'm not quite sure. re-peat made an excellent post, the last 2 in his list could work for you.


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## re-peat

*Re: Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes *FINAL VERSION (maybe?!)**



Michael Chrostek @ Wed Jan 02 said:


> re-peat made an excellent post, the last 2 in his list could work for you.


Actually, Michael, my post is even more excellent than you read it to be: ALL FOUR suggestions will in fact work extremely well. And if it's only a matter of narrowing the low-end, I would even say that my first two suggestions, rather than the last two (which are both full-blown stereo processors) are in fact the more sensible choices. 

Hanu,

Odd as it may seem, the panning (or positioning) of the double basses, or other bass instruments, isn't defined in the lowest low-end of the frequency spectrum, it occurs higher up (low mids & mids). You can easily mono-fy your mix below, say 75Hz and still make it appear as if the basses are perfectly placed in their expected position (which often is quite a bit off-centre).
Mono-fying the low end of a mix — the default value for most of these plugins is often around 60Hz, but you can raise that value significantly, depending on the material — really helps anchoring the mix in the middle, which is not without importance. Like Michael says, it makes for a clearer, and much more solid bass. (Not forgetting the fact that it will also reveal possible phase issues in the low-end which might have arisen during the course of the production. )

_


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## ghostnote

*Re: Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes *FINAL VERSION (maybe?!)**



re-peat @ Wed Jan 02 said:


> Michael Chrostek @ Wed Jan 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> re-peat made an excellent post, the last 2 in his list could work for you.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, Michael, my post is even more excellent than you read it to be: ALL FOUR suggestions will in fact work extremely well. And if it's only a matter of narrowing the low-end, I would even say that my first two suggestions, rather than the last two (which are both full-blown stereo processors) are in fact the more sensible choices,
Click to expand...


sry, seems like I've overlooked the AU in the first 2 links.


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## mark812

re-peat @ Wed Jan 02 said:


> mark812 @ Tue Jan 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Izotope Ozone does this and much more.
> 
> 
> 
> Surely, inserting the mighty Ozone into a track simply to have some control over the stereowidth of the low end is overkill?
Click to expand...


Of course, but can't you just choose Stereo Imager section in Ozone as one plugin and use it separately?


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## Benji

*Re: Hans Zimmer's Discombobulate from Sherlock Holmes*



The White Knight @ 29/10/2012 said:


> There are also two subtle reverbs to bind things together and bring some air. Bunford version need air, too much compression, too much in the face, your cello line is too heavy, it must be lighter, you should use spiccato patch and not at maximum power, do not confuse sharpness with heaviness :
> 
> [flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F65259268&secret_url=false[/flash]



Hey White Night,
I love your quick funny compo!
What samples are you using for the Zither?
The fast gypsy violin lines are good also 

Best,

Ben


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## re-peat

mark812 @ Wed Jan 02 said:


> Of course, but can't you just choose Stereo Imager section in Ozone as one plugin and use it separately?


Mark, yes, you can, but that's assuming that you already have Ozone 5 Advanced, isn't it? (As far as I know, that's the only version of Ozone which allows the loading of individual 'component plugins'.) And buying Ozone 5 Advanced ($999), merely to narrow the low end of one's mixes seems a touch frivolous and Louis XIV to me.
I only mentioned the above 4 suggestions because (a) they're perfect, fully dedicated, to tackle the problem at hand (narrowing the stereofield below a certain threshold), and (b) they don't come with excessive, unnecessary features and processing options. And they're also much, much, much more affordable than Ozone 5 Advanced of course. 
But obviously, if you already have Ozone 5 Advanced, then sure, by all means, use its included stereo processor.

_


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## germancomponist

Peat, can you tell more about the NuGen mono-filter? I visited their website and downloaded the 30 days free trial version, but I havn't seen a manual.... .


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## re-peat

Gunther,

Here's a link to the Monofilter v4 manual: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/Monofilter4%20Manual.pdf (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... Manual.pdf)
(It is — operationally speaking — a very straightforward plug-in, you know. The manual makes it actually look much more complex than it is. But even so, the PDF-document does contain rather important information, so reading it is certainly not a waste of time.)

_


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## germancomponist

Thank you very much, Peat! I think this plug is very interesting... .


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## Hanu_H

I've been using Ozone in my pop/rock mixes and actually been using that to narrow the bass a bit. Today I tried it again and went crazy with it and it sounded great. I will try it also for my next orchestral piece. Thanks Michael and Peat, and sorry for taking it off topic.


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