# Orchestral action cue



## Alex Temple (Feb 8, 2009)

Hi everyone,

Here's a new piece I've been tinkering with for a few weeks called "The Vanguard." It's frantic, loud and violent, but it has some lyrical parts to counter the brash brassiness of the rest of the piece. Think Wagner meets Ravel. This started as a one-mood piece that could have functioned as a boss theme in a game calling for a cinematic sound, but I felt like taking it in a different direction in the end. 

http://www.box.net/shared/ldkx940z5i

Comments and critiques welcome! And what would actually really help is if you could comment on the mood changes, some of which are intentional but for others I think I may have inadvertently added through clunky changes in harmonic language.


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## Rob (Feb 8, 2009)

wow, Alex! That sounds impressive to me... an excellent performance. These are samples, right? :D


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## johncarter (Feb 8, 2009)

Great action piece and GREAT orchestra too .. what orchestra is it ?


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## Alex Temple (Feb 8, 2009)

Thanks! Pretty much everything is VSL except for the horns and trombones (and some tuba parts), which are mostly SAM.


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## artsoundz (Feb 8, 2009)

really, really nice. I couldn't hear a single "sample" in there. It sounds so smooth and natural. Not to mention the composition itself shows so much depth.


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## dannthr (Feb 8, 2009)

Very enjoyable composition, man.


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## rJames (Feb 8, 2009)

fabulous writing and orchestration.


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## Reegs (Feb 8, 2009)

Great Piece Alex! The writing is great. Your mix job is excellent too.


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## Lex (Feb 8, 2009)

sounds grrreat!

aLex


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## Alex Temple (Feb 8, 2009)

Wow, thanks for the comments everyone! 

Dcoscina: this was actually done straight into Sonar. And you are correct in that it's pretty much aligned to the tempo grid exactly. This has been a workflow problem for me when I'm trying to do more relaxed pieces, but for a piece like this I don't think it's so much of an issue. 

Ned: Thanks for the words of encouragement. I will say that I "did my time" for years with a free sequencer called Anvil Studio, while attempting to record (layering and all) pieces I wrote for guitar on soundrec32 of all programs (the .wav playback program that hasn't really changed since Windows 95). But most of the techniques I use are now things I figured out when doing classical mockups for VSL.


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## re-peat (Feb 9, 2009)

Absolutely brilliant work this, Alex. Immensely satisfying on every level: composition, orchestration, performance, orchestral simulation, production ... Pretty amazing achievement, really. Best thing I've heard in a loooooong time here.

_


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## dcoscina (Feb 9, 2009)

Bernard Asselin @ Sun Feb 08 said:


> Alex,
> 
> I can say that is my favorite MIDI mockup. Grandiose and sensitive, I love this blend.
> 
> Congrats!



For me it's a toss up between this and Fred's Miroslav choir piece. Both sound amazingly real. The only thing that reveals this is a demo is the quick string parts with the short bowing. Real strings blur their lines a bit and when we use samples they are so precise and static that they do not allow for those small variations (unless you are using something like Symphobia's repetition feature or EW for that matter where they have slightly different articulations that bounce around).

But musically this thing is solid as can be and I imagine it would translate beautifully to real orchestra. 

once again, great job!


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## dcoscina (Feb 9, 2009)

Alex Temple @ Sun Feb 08 said:


> Wow, thanks for the comments everyone!
> 
> Dcoscina: this was actually done straight into Sonar. And you are correct in that it's pretty much aligned to the tempo grid exactly. This has been a workflow problem for me when I'm trying to do more relaxed pieces, but for a piece like this I don't think it's so much of an issue.
> 
> Ned: Thanks for the words of encouragement. I will say that I "did my time" for years with a free sequencer called Anvil Studio, while attempting to record (layering and all) pieces I wrote for guitar on soundrec32 of all programs (the .wav playback program that hasn't really changed since Windows 95). But most of the techniques I use are now things I figured out when doing classical mockups for VSL.



Did you use step input or played in realtime? I actually think it sounds very smooth and organic (except the short string bits- see above post) but otherwise it does not sound step entered at all. Very realistic. 

Did you use the notation editor at all? Only reason I ask is that I found it a pain because of it's basic score editing.


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## Alex Temple (Feb 9, 2009)

I entered the lines stepwise for the parts that are too difficult for me to play myself. Often after I've entered a line I'll go back and adjust the note start times to give the phrase better shape, or if I'm feeling lazy I just use cakewalk's MIDI quantize and set the note accuracy to +/-5%.

The fast lines are tough, yes. In my template I have the Appassionata violins, the standard violins, and the solo violins all available at the same time so I try to add a measure of orchestral slop by using different articulations for the same line for all three. For example, on the opening line for the 1st violins, where the Appasionata is using the harsh repetitions to play repeated 16th notes, I layered it with the perf-tremolo on the 14-violin section, playing only 8ths. I've also found that layering (at a very low level) the trill patches, with their release tails turned off but their artificial releases extended, can be great for adding sloppiness to fast string lines. The solution is far from perfect. I go to the National Symphony a lot (thank you student discounts!) and am always reminded of how strange it is that I'm sitting at a computer trying to get 8 to 12 string ensemble tracks to play less inhumanly accurately while the 60 string players in front of me are trying their hardest to nail their lines with precision.

I don't use the notation editor at all (though when I need a score I'll use Sibelius). Unless Sonar 7 or 8 has improved in this respect, I don't think Cakewalk has updated it at all since the Pro Audio days.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 9, 2009)

Alex Temple @ 9/2/2009 said:


> ... how strange it is that I'm sitting at a computer trying to get 8 to 12 string ensemble tracks to play less inhumanly accurately while the 60 string players in front of me are trying their hardest to nail their lines with precision.



So true, and so funny! Thanks for bringing a smile to my face. o-[][]-o


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## Colin O'Malley (Feb 9, 2009)

Wow. Really inspiring. Thanks for posting. 

Colin


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## careyford (Feb 9, 2009)

Hey Alex, great work. Keep posting! 

The composition and the mix are very strong. What reverb are you using and how much?

Richard


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## synthetic (Feb 9, 2009)

Wow, fabulous work all around. What specifically did you use for low brass? That sounds fantastic.


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## PolarBear (Feb 9, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Feb 09 said:


> Alex Temple @ 9/2/2009 said:
> 
> 
> > ... how strange it is that I'm sitting at a computer trying to get 8 to 12 string ensemble tracks to play less inhumanly accurately while the 60 string players in front of me are trying their hardest to nail their lines with precision.
> ...


Yeah, smiling here too


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## Hannes_F (Feb 9, 2009)

Hi Alex,

have been watching your posts and music in the VSL forum, nice to meet you here! 

Great that you made the transition from re-creation (which pays off of course) to your own music. The only complaint I have is ... more of it, please


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## Hannes_F (Feb 9, 2009)

As to your question about the mood changes ... I would love to comment but how can we know which of them were intentional and which not? 
:=)


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## Alex Temple (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks everyone, I'm really encouraged by the responses here.  Several of you have asked about the mix, so I'll do my best to give a general rundown. This is pretty much the result of years of trial and error  

I'm using several instances of Altiverb for reverb. All of the woodwinds have an single insert for early reflections (Mechanics Hall), and are sent to an aux bus for the tail (Berliner Philharmonie). Before this they are all narrowed using Vienna Ensemble's width adjustment. The VSL brass is broken down into solo horns, ensemble horns (usually the a8 horns), solo trumpet (both the C and the new Bb trumpet), ensemble trumpets (usually the a6 trumpets), ensemble trombones, and tuba. Each one has their own insert and tail (all in the Mechanics Hall though with different spatial positioning/eq). The percussion has two inserts, one for timpani and one for everything else, using the Mechanics Hall for both of them. The strings are pre-panned and have their width adjusted in Vienna Ensemble. The higher parts are often layers of solo, orchestral, and appassionata, though I don't use all layers in all parts at the same time because it sounds too thick. The strings go straight to the Berlin aux bus, and do not have any early reflections applied at all, though they are adjusted beforehand for EQ. I've worked with many more elaborate setups for the strings (up to even using around 8 separate instances of Altiverb), but most of them actually ended up sounding worse. If I could load more instances of Altiverb on my machine I would probably split the wind section into smaller groups. As a general rule I apply EQ before reverb for instruments that are going to a general aux bus, but after reverb for instruments that have their own dedicated instance. Pretty much all settings, including EQ, are part of the template.

Most sections have their solo and ensemble patches playing in unison if they are carrying a significant part of the texture. 

The SAM brass is treated very differently. For the horns, I actually used a technique I remember reading in the library's CD liner notes, which suggested we stack the close and far samples. I find this helps give them a nice blend of the definition of the close samples with the fullness of the far, and fortunately without phasing problems. The close is panned more to the left than the far samples, and is much louder in the mix (all of this is saved in a GVI preset so that I don't have to mess around with this again and again). The trombones are the solo trombones only; for the ensemble trombone parts I prefer to use one SAM solo layered with the VSL ensemble. I used the far recordings only for the trombone. Because the SAM trombone and tuba are a little more centered than I would like, they are panned hard right, with a delay plugin inserted to delay the left channel about 7 ms or so. The delay helps make the instruments sound like they are sitting on the right side of the stage instead of just sounding like a centered instrument patch panned right. All of the SAM brass gets a small amount of extra reverb from the Berlin aux bus. 

The trombone staccatos use a special patch I made a long time ago by cutting up the triplet repetitions of the SAM solo trombone. It has paid off in pretty much every track I've done since then, especially when layered with other instruments (the last note of the triplet phrase is also very useful on its own as an especially forceful marcato).

Many of the other brass instruments use similar techniques for their staccatos; i.e., using patches that are technically phrases, but in ways that give them many more possible applications than the limited scope of the actual sampled phrase, played from beginning to end. The SAM triplet is the only patch I use that I have edited at the sample level. 

All of this may sound tedious, but I've found that once these things are integrated in a template that they really aren't much harder than using any other patches. It is also very useful to have the keyswitches be as consistent across the board as possible so that layering (either as part of "correct" orchestral doubling or layering the same part on different patches) needs as little additional programming as possible.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 10, 2009)

WOW - Thanks for sharing that!! USEFUL! Generous of you to take the time, too. o-[][]-o


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## Mahlon (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks for that information. Always interesting to hear how other people accomplish things.

One question I have is about the 7 ms delay and the panning of the SAM trobones. Are you panning with Sonar's regular pan control? Or are you using a panner which keeps the information from both channels intact?

Thanks again for your explanations,
Mahlon


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## Alex Temple (Feb 11, 2009)

Mahlon: For the panning I'm using GVI's internal panner, which I guess would function the same as Sonar's. I'm panning them around 40%, 55 got the tuba, so there is still enough coming out of the left channel to not have to worry about losing the stereo image.

rgames: I would say this is "in the style of a score" and definitely not a concert work. Had it been, I probably would have either ditched the third theme or extended the whole thing.


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## Sid_Barnhoorn (Feb 11, 2009)

Fantastic piece, Alex! Love it!


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## madbulk (Feb 11, 2009)

Thanks Alex for the breakdown. Very generous with your time and your hard trial-and-error earned information. I'm sure it will be read and re-read for months, while people try to approximate to what you've done here.


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## Mahlon (Feb 11, 2009)

Thanks Alex for the info. Again, great writing and emulation.

Mahlon


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## JBacal (May 5, 2009)

I missed this one the first time around. Very impressive!!!!

Best,
Jay


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## leslieq (May 5, 2009)

Wow, Alex. Great work. An incredible talent - both musicality and technicality. Please more...


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## Angel (May 6, 2009)

i just sit here in front of my daw crying silently
amazing work!


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## CFDG (May 6, 2009)

Oh, music!


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## dcoscina (May 6, 2009)

Alex, I just re-listened to this again and the choir sounds really real! And I love the music itself. You have a great sense of developing a theme and putting it through its paces. 

Terrific energetic piece. How long did this take you to compose (please don't say a day or I'll join Angel in crying).


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## Angel (May 6, 2009)

I could initiate a crying-group-buy btw


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## WillMah Gold (May 7, 2009)

@Angel: I'm in! ~o)


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## clarkcontrol (May 15, 2009)

Oh, dear God, I just heard this.

Having a good cry, too.

Clark


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## Jaap (May 20, 2009)

Just listened as well. Amazing piece!


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## Hakan Yurdakul (Jun 4, 2009)

Excellent piece! I enjoyed it..

Best Wishes,
Hakan Yurdakul
www.hakanyurdakul.com


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