# Mastering dilemma



## MarcusMaximus (May 8, 2018)

I am at the point where I can mix my (mostly sampled orchestral) music reasonably well I think, although of course there's always room for improvement. However I'm stuck at the mastering stage. I am a bit torn between the do-it-yourself approach and sending it to a pro to get that '2nd pair of ears' and all the expertise that goes with it. 

Generally I favour the former however I don't feel I currently have the skills to do it properly. Also, because I work quite (too!) slowly, I don't get lots of practice at this which is another disadvantage. I have downloaded the Ozone 8 demo but although I have read and watched most of the info they have available, I still find myself at a loss when it comes to trying to master my own material. I just used the Master Assistant and/or the presets and then tweaked those as suggested but without really knowing what I was doing. I have also read a couple of books, looked at various online resources etc. I think the bottom line is I don't properly understand the tools and plugins that are used so whether it's Ozone, the native plugins available in Logic or the lovely Metric Halo ones that are included in the DSP processor in my audio interface, I still don't really know how to best make use of them.

So I reckon that if I am going to master my own material I need to learn how to do it properly. To that end I have been considering this course: https://cinematiccomposing.com/courses/details/9. It is quite expensive though so I was wondering if anyone has taken it or knows anything about it - would it be a good option? I generally don't like their hard-sell approach which has been discussed here before but hopefully the course is worthwhile anyway. Are there any other options for courses etc. that people would recommend? ThinkSpace do an orchestral mixing one which I took and found very helpful but they don't offer anything on mastering. There is also this one, again quite expensive and not specifically orchestral: http://homemastering.com/hmm-live/

Or would I be better off going the more 'traditional' route and sending my music to a dedicated mastering engineer rather than attempting to master it myself, even with training? What do other people do?

Any comments or advice welcome. Thanks.


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## fretti (May 8, 2018)

Sorry I'm neither an expert in mixing/mastering nor have I taken any of the courses listed by you (or the ones I list down below) but they seem to offer a wide variety of mix engineers and music styles. They have lot's of (short) videos on youtube and also a few free parts of some courses once you're registered (haven't had the time though to look into them right now...).
They are also very expensive (subscription if I am correct for a whole year), but maybe you like their approach better:

https://www.youtube.com/user/MixWithTheMASTERS/videos
https://www.mixwiththemasters.com

So just for comparison reasons and completeness for your consideration


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## R. Soul (May 8, 2018)

If you want the mix a little bit better, by all means send it to a Mastering engineer.
But if you can already mix to a 'radio ready' level, you own mastering should get very close to what a Mastering engineer can achieve.

It's always good to have that 'fresh set of ears', but I think generally Mastering is overrated. It's not some black art or rocket science. Remember, the mix is probably 90% of the final master. So whether you add you own 7% or get the 10% via a Mastering engineer, you get a very small difference.
But by all means, why not send 1 mix to an ME and compare it to your own mastering. That way you'll see if it's worth for you.

Personally I wouldn't pay £247 for a mastering course, when most of the info can be picked up on YouTube or much cheaper via Groove3, ADSR etc.


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## aaronventure (May 8, 2018)

If you're the one doing your own mix, mastering is just the finishing touch. You drop a glue compressor, automate it if you have insane dynamics, use a multiband compressor of you need to tame certain bands and do final driving if you want. I like just a tiny bit of Slate's Revival and Triode from Ozone's Exciter. Then you adjust the final level on the limiter and that's it. 

You don't need a £247 course if all you need is to finish your mixes and send them on. If you want to learn about CD Mastering, subcodes, in detail about vinyl mastering etc and a lot of (to me, at least) interesting theory behind it all, you can pick up https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0998503320/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=bobbowsi-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=0998503320&linkId=15c296812805e467b20fa5cea933719f (Bobby Oswinski's)_https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0998503320/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=bobbowsi-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=0998503320&linkId=15c296812805e467b20fa5cea933719f (The Mastering Engineer's Handbook). _Flipping pages is much faster than going through a video if you want to look something up or re-read a part.



R. Soul said:


> If you want the mix a little bit better, by all means send it to a Mastering engineer.
> But if you can already mix to a 'radio ready' level, you own mastering should get very close to what a Mastering engineer can achieve.
> 
> It's always good to have that 'fresh set of ears', but I think generally Mastering is overrated. It's not some black art or rocket science. Remember, the mix is probably 90% of the final master. So whether you add you own 7% or get the 10% via a Mastering engineer, you get a very small difference.
> But by all means, why not send 1 mix to an ME and compare it to your own mastering. That way you'll see if it's worth for you.


Well, not really. People mix in all kinds of rooms and certain things can simply slip through. I'll do (sometimes a lot of) automation where necessary and do my best to fix everything I can without having access to the stems. I'm sure all the top engineers have the same approach. If all I was doing was dropping some glue, a static EQ and some saturation, I'd be over in a few minutes and it'd be really easy money. I'd never do that to a client, and it's _not _about the money  

Mastering is pretty cheap. If you're not sure about your mix, you can get a second pair of ears that are taking care of audio for a living for the price of a dinner for two.


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## MPortmann (May 8, 2018)

aaronventure said:


> If you're the one doing your own mix, mastering is just the finishing touch. You drop a glue compressor, automate it if you have insane dynamics, use a multiband compressor of you need to tame certain bands and do final driving if you want. I like just a tiny bit of Slate's Revival and Triode from Ozone's Exciter. Then you adjust the final level on the limiter and that's it.
> 
> You don't need a £247 course if all you need is to finish your mixes and send them on. If you want to learn about CD Mastering, subcodes, in detail about vinyl mastering etc and a lot of (to me, at least) interesting theory behind it all, you can pick up https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0998503320/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=bobbowsi-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=0998503320&linkId=15c296812805e467b20fa5cea933719f (Bobby Oswinski's)_https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0998503320/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=bobbowsi-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=0998503320&linkId=15c296812805e467b20fa5cea933719f (The Mastering Engineer's Handbook). _Flipping pages is much faster than going through a video if you want to look something up or re-read a part.
> 
> ...


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## Gerhard Westphalen (May 8, 2018)

Considering that mastering is generally fairly cheap, why not send a track to a couple of different mastering engineer and also try it yourself and then compare?


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## artomatic (May 8, 2018)

Any links to a reputable/cheap ME? Thanks.


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## ceemusic (May 8, 2018)

Mastering is for balancing the material so it translates on variety of systems. There's no need for compression or any enhancers unless the material calls for it. Some tracks might need very little done besides slight eq adjustments & leveling between tracks.

Getting your mix the way you want it to sound is key before sending it out. Also many ME's will critique your mix allowing you to fix any sore spots they may find could be improved before mastering.


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## ironbut (May 8, 2018)

I took Ian Sheppard's course and I thought it was pretty good but I had a few years of studying/practicing mixing under my belt before I did.
You should be at the point where you have a pretty good grasp of the way that compression and eq work and when and where to use it.
Not saying it's a waste of money if you don't, but you should be willing to spend whatever time it takes to make each skill second nature. 
Otherwise, it would certainly be better to pay someone to master your work if only to hear what it could sound like.
Bear in mind that I started in the mixing/mastering world so I take it way more seriously than a composer needs to IMHO.


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## MarcusMaximus (May 8, 2018)

All great suggestions and resources thanks. Will definitely check out those videos as well as the book. Sending the mix to a few ME's and getting feedback etc., very worthwhile I am sure. I second the request for any links to some of the more affordable ones who would also have specific experience with sampled orchestral material.

I wouldn't say my mixes are quite 'radio ready'. When I compare them to professionally mixed (and mastered) reference tracks they don't have the same clarity, separation, sparkle, width, power etc. I think they're ok but they definitely need the extra polish. Now maybe that means my mixing skills aren't quite up to it but either way I would ultimately like to acquire the skills to enable me to finalise my own projects, though I definitely see the advantage in sending them out as well. 

I've always found the ad hoc nature of YouTube videos etc. to be quite frustrating, though that's not any fault of the material on offer or of the people presenting it. It's just that I like a more structured approach which is why I am drawn to these courses, especially the first one I linked to. I generally do quite well in that sort of organised context. Anyway, lots to research and think about here so thanks again.

MPortmann, did you mean to say something cos all I can see in your post is a quote from someone else? Or maybe you simply meant to endorse that, which of course is fine!


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## MarcusMaximus (May 8, 2018)

ironbut said:


> I took Ian Sheppard's course and I thought it was pretty good but I had a few years of studying/practicing mixing under my belt before I did.
> You should be at the point where you have a pretty good grasp of the way that compression and eq work and when and where to use it.
> Not saying it's a waste of money if you don't, but you should be willing to spend whatever time it takes to make each skill second nature.
> Otherwise, it would certainly be better to pay someone to master your work if only to hear what it could sound like.
> Bear in mind that I started in the mixing/mastering world so I take it way more seriously than a composer needs to IMHO.



Posted mine before I read this. Good to hear about the course and your point about getting those skills to be second nature makes total sense. My question is more about how best to get to that point as it doesn't seem to come instinctively or naturally even after multiple attempts, to me anyway.


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## ironbut (May 8, 2018)

Practice practice practice
Here's a great source for multi tracks files you can drop in your daw work on.

http://www.cambridge-mt.com/ms-mtk.htm


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## MarcusMaximus (May 8, 2018)

Practice yes of course but I also need to first learn the craft. I do understand the basics of how compressors and EQ work, for the most part anyway although I have to admit that compression still mystifies me to some extent. When, where and how to use them, especially in a mastering context, is the question. I can listen to a mix and hear that it lacks a certain sparkle or is a little heavy on the mids or whatever but I've no real idea what to do about that, i.e. how to get it to sound like the reference by using the tools available, including exciters and stereo enhancers as well as the stock ones.

Anyway, thanks for the link. Looks really useful.


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## yhomas (May 9, 2018)

MarcusMaximus said:


> I am at the point where I can mix my (mostly sampled orchestral) music reasonably well I think, although of course there's always room for improvement. However I'm stuck at the mastering stage. I am a bit torn between the do-it-yourself approach and sending it to a pro to get that '2nd pair of ears' and all the expertise that goes with it.
> 
> Generally I favour the former however I don't feel I currently have the skills to do it properly. Also, because I work quite (too!) slowly, I don't get lots of practice at this which is another disadvantage. I have downloaded the Ozone 8 demo but although I have read and watched most of the info they have available, I still find myself at a loss when it comes to trying to master my own material. I just used the Master Assistant and/or the presets and then tweaked those as suggested but without really knowing what I was doing. I have also read a couple of books, looked at various online resources etc. I think the bottom line is I don't properly understand the tools and plugins that are used so whether it's Ozone, the native plugins available in Logic or the lovely Metric Halo ones that are included in the DSP processor in my audio interface, I still don't really know how to best make use of them.
> 
> ...



So obviously, there are professionals who do nothing but mix music 60 hrs a week—and others who only master music in their 100k+ room. Odds are, these professionals are better at doing their profession than you are; so if it really matters and budget allows, obviously you do your thing and pay them to do their thing—and odds are very high, you will end up with a better product. 

However, if you hire this stuff out, maybe it only makes a “3%” difference—do you need those last few percent and can your customers hear the difference? Maybe not.


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## MarcusMaximus (May 9, 2018)

Yes absolutely, when you spell it out like that. I've invested a huge amount of time and considerable funds into learning and developing the skills of composition, orchestration etc. Multiple hours over years learning to play my instrument. And so on, with lots more to go hopefully. I haven't put anything like as much time into becoming a solid recording engineer so I suppose that's what I'm up against, i.e. mixing and mastering being two huge fields which really require the painstaking development of their own specialist skills. I think it's fair to say that at the moment the difference between my masters and a pro's would be significantly more than 3% (!) but maybe with enough investment I could close that gap some more. Still, there's definitely something to be said for 'doing my thing and paying them to do theirs', though I am fairly attached to the notion of doing everything myself right from the initial idea through to the finished piece. I've always been an avid DIY'er though lately I have been getting other people in to do jobs on the house that I would have done myself years ago.. Must be getting old!


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## ironbut (May 9, 2018)

IMHO, it depends a lot on how you want to distribute your music.
Is it going to be sold as a standalone production or is it going to be something for a library, game, film etc.?
Is it going to be auditioned and compared to other productions?
If it's going to compete with other music, you want it to be just as polished as your competition. If it sounds "off" the folks checking it out may move on before they even hear the first measure.


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## guydoingmusic (May 9, 2018)

I just got some files back from Emily Lazar that she mastered for me yesterday. And... HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!!! The difference in what I can do (Slate FGX, Ozone, etc.) and what she can do are incomparable. She's expensive but worth every penny.


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## Scoremixer (May 9, 2018)

MarcusMaximus said:


> I haven't put anything like as much time into becoming a solid recording engineer so I suppose that's what I'm up against, i.e. mixing and mastering being two huge fields which really require the painstaking development of their own specialist skills. I think it's fair to say that at the moment the difference between my masters and a pro's would be significantly more than 3% (!) but maybe with enough investment I could close that gap some more.



I'm obviously very far from an impartial voice, and one can of course get many more minutes of music mastered for the price that it costs to mix... However, I'd urge you to think about saving money to get your music mixed by a professional before you consider paying for mastering. The gains to be had are bigger the earlier on in the process you get someone else involved. By the time it reaches mastering, you're either looking at the final polish or a rescue job, neither of which will be a transformative as a great mix.


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## babylonwaves (May 9, 2018)

guydoingmusic said:


> I just got some files back from Emily Lazar that she mastered for me yesterday. And... HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!!! The difference in what I can do (Slate FGX, Ozone, etc.) and what she can do are incomparable. She's expensive but worth every penny.


yes, she's great. and maybe she'd master in a room which is not great and still do something which the most of us can't. but back to the OP question: mastering is all about hearing (or a lot of experience which you gain in great sounding rooms over time). unless your room is reasonably linear, let somebody else do the mastering for you.


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## bryla (May 9, 2018)

I would just suggest izotopes and slates YouTube channels as great free resources for learning! Of course they lean towards their own products but the principles are valid.

I use Holger and he can do much much better things to my music than I could think of. Ozone’s master assistant can copy that pretty close though but it can’t make it on its own.


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## MarcusMaximus (May 9, 2018)

Yes, all great points. I don't write music for any media as such, just for its own sake, the intention being to release it as a standalone. I've done this before and that is what I'm most interested in. So it needs to stand up as a great sounding recording but not necessarily in comparison to others' work, at least not in any immediate sense (i.e. competitively).

I laughed when I read that about your experience with Emily Lazar. A very refreshing reminder that there is usually a world of difference between what a really good pro can do and what the average composer-who-mixes-and-masters-their-own-music can do. I released a CD some years ago which I got Bob Katz to master at the time and he did an absolutely beautiful job with a bunch of self-mixes that were ok but nothing great. I don't think he does orchestral stuff so much though and he is rather expensive..

No doubt very true about catching any problems at the mixing stage. I suppose we could follow that thought through and say that it would be best to get my initial ideas orchestrated by a 'true professional' rather than doing that myself as well. I'm being a bit playful here to make a point but part of the whole creative process for me is to do _my _best to create something from scratch and to see it through to the end as far as possible. At various stages there will no doubt always be people who could do a better job but that misses the point, for me anyway. Having said that, your argument is consistent with what I was saying in that quote so I do appreciate it and will certainly give it due consideration. It's not the first time someone has suggested getting the music mixed by a pro.

My room although very small is fully treated. I also have a terrific pair of monitors and a top quality interface so I don't think the room is contributing anything problematic. Perhaps I could do with a subwoofer to manage the sub frequencies but apart from that I think my mixing environment is ok. No idea if it is 'linear' as such but it is almost anechoic, which was my intention when I treated it as it is too small for its natural reflections to be anything but problematic. I think my limitation is more to do with what I am and am not able to hear, as well as how to interpret and correct that if necessary.


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## MarcusMaximus (May 9, 2018)

Ok, will check out both Emily L. and Holger L. Good to have some names. Any other more affordable ME's out there with experience of sampled orchestral material that people would recommend? As well as mixing engineers? Another member did suggest a couple of people to me some time ago from the mixing point of view, one of whom is unavailable and the other I have yet to contact, probably due to my aforementioned ambivalence/reluctance about handing my work over to be mixed by someone else..


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## MarcusMaximus (May 11, 2018)

I just sent my latest project to Holger to be mastered. It's great that he also gives feedback on the mix so I've requested that as well. Should be interesting.. Thanks to bryla for mentioning him.

Thanks also to everyone for all the helpful tips and pointers. I would still like to train myself up to be able to master my own stuff effectively so I would be interested to hear if anyone else has experience of the courses available, especially the Marc Jovani one I linked to at the start of the thread. It appears to be identical to the mixing/mastering section of his Symphonic Virtual Orchestration course so he has obviously created a standalone course out of it. No harm in that but it is quite expensive compared to the price of the complete course which I don't feel the need to undertake at the moment. Still, it does look good and quite thorough judging from the module descriptions.

Anyway, excited to hear what a real ME can do with my track!

Edit: Just checking out the courses available at Groove3. Some excellent possibilities there for a very reasonable price. Thanks to R. Soul for the heads-up.


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