# Any composer's desk recommendations?



## Mike Greene (Nov 12, 2010)

I know this topic has been covered before, but I'll be doggoned if I can find it.

I have a room I'm outfitting from scratch, so I figure I should start with the desk. I think my needs are the same as everyone else here: Computer keyboard, 88-key keyboard, 8 or 16 channel little fader controller, speakers, pre-amp . . . you get the drill.

I suppose I could have a smaller 61 key keyboard in the center of the desk and a full 88 key one off to the side, since that center area is prime real estate.

I've looked around the internet and seen a few desks that might work, one being this KK Audio one:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/A1EDKSBkNt

It looks like it would do the trick, but I wonder if the "underneathe" keyboard like that would be too low or something. Any thoughts or things I should watch out for? And wasn't Nick making a composer's desk?


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## autopilot (Nov 12, 2010)

The KK desks looks great.

I usually lust after the Argosy stuff, but am liking the KK stuff - a little lighter looking, though it won't feel like sitting at a space console.

I worry about a sliding keyboard as well, as I am a basher, and quite tall. I have an ikea thing working well at the moment, but it is nowhere near as pretty as a proper client friendly thing, but it was damn cheap and works well for my needs.


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## David Story (Nov 12, 2010)

Nice design autopilot. What's the piece for the monitors?

I got a local craftsman to build a desk to order. Nice hardwood- the qwerty, 88 key and monitors were at my height, cost less than 1,000. 

Let's mention omnirax, I see these in high end studios:
http://www.proaudiosuperstore.com/omnirax-keyboard-workstations.html (http://www.proaudiosuperstore.com/omnir ... tions.html)


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## redleicester (Nov 12, 2010)

Evening Mike 

I've spent thousands over the years on custom furniture, and each and every time have come to regret it - the world moves too fast these days, and what seems right one moment is hopeless the next.

Unless it was for a specific installation or to solve some architectural problem, I simply no longer see the point - equipment changes, space requirements change, and all too soon the clever bit of furniture is no longer clever. 

Thus the last time I had any furniture "designed" it was simply a flat table top with a cutout for my keyboard, and a removeable mount for the Euphonix - the rest is just flat desk surface. Thus as I've changed/upgraded TFT monitors, added bigger trackballs or extra keyboard, of changed little bits here and there, it's flexed with me. It's now in its third location and still going strong.

As for height, I had mine on slightly higher legs than a "normal" table, so that the controller keyboard in the cut out is just the right height for me to play...


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## germancomponist (Nov 12, 2010)

Sorry that I have no camara at this moment. I have built me a nice one. Maybe I can do a photo tomorrow.


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## autopilot (Nov 12, 2010)

Hey David - 

The monitors piece is a new ikea thing this year where you buy the brackets, and woodpiece, and it clamps onto the tabletop. It's called the Ekby Osten... 

You buy the brackets seperately, and with my 20 kilo ATC's on top I thought a couple directly underneath would be a good idea. 

http://www.ikea.com/au/en/catalog/products/S79873674

The Table's the normal ikea Galant series, so you could also do the corner curvey thing of you want (and I may one of these days)


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## Stephen Hill (Nov 12, 2010)

Nick's desk:

http://virtualinstrumentsmag.com/composersdesk/


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 12, 2010)

Thanks Stephen!

Mike, you're welcome to come over and take a look at it even if you're just looking for ideas. It actually looks better than the pic in the ad now - the bridge shelf has been replaced by a bigger one without the curly edge cutting.

The big problem with everything else on the market is that at best the MIDI keyboard is on a sliding shelf, and that means you have to move when you slide it, because you're the wrong distance from the computer monitor and the speakers. That's why you want the desktop to slide, not the keyboard.

There's more to it than that, though. With the desktop back toward your belly, the computer keyboard and mouse are in the right position for using the computer; when you push it forward to reveal the keyboard, they're in the right position for sequencing.


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## Leo Badinella (Nov 12, 2010)

If the keyboard is too low can't you adjust the chair? Anyway, the desk in your link seems like cool desk to work on. But the price... I don't know.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 12, 2010)

Just so you know: I've been working at the desk in the picture all day long every day for the past four years. The concept is based on the set-up I built out of Ultimate Support hardware and worked at all day long for another few years before that. I've tried all kinds of ergonomic set-ups over the years, and this time I finally got it right!

The keyboard is at standard piano height, which is about 29" if I remember right. Then the sliding desktop is as low as possible above that. Really the question isn't whether the keyboard is too low, it's whether the desktop is too high, because most tabletops are lower. But it turns out that it's totally comfortable; you put your forearms on the chair arms or on the front of the desk, and you can (and I do) type all day long without any strain.

We've been thinking about how to make a lower-cost product, but this one costs what it does because each one is made to order by hand, mostly out of solid hardwood. To put a finer point on it, the materials alone are about a third of the price. Just the heavy-duty slides the desktop is on cost us a couple of hundred dollars. And the guy who builds (and designed) the desk is an outrageous craftsman.

So yeah it's a lot of money, but a complicated, highly specialized piece of handmade furniture is always going to cost a lot. There's no way around it unless we go to something more mass-produced. I've looked into that, but you need to sell a lot of desks to justify the investment (unless we can figure out a totally different way to do it that doesn't). There's a machine that cuts laminated pressboard pieces to exact size. It's very expensive, and the people who program it are very expensive too, so you have to make a lot of them to recover the set-up costs.

We may do that at some point, but so far it hasn't made sense. Or maybe we will figure out a totally different concept. I'm busy trying to get the breath controller we've been working for a long time out the door before that, though.


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## Mike Greene (Nov 12, 2010)

Thanks guys! Excellent info, including the idea that these things do change, so getting something too fancy today can be an anchor tomorrow. Certainly what I would have wanted 5 years ago is very different from what I'm want today. In fact, for my home situation, I've been using a Plummers (similar to Ikea) desk.

Now I have to get something that looks nice, though, because we're doing a house remodel, so I have orders from my wife to not embarrass her when she gives her friends a tour. She's also making me get rid of the t-shirts that have holes in them, so she ain't jokin' around!

Nick, that looks like the best solution. Now I remember you showing me this once before at your house. Very slick. I'm a little concerned about the upper desk height because that's the part I'll be using most. (Sad how little actual "playing" is a part of what I do nowadays.)

Leo, the problem with simply adjusting the chair height is knee clearance. Whether my chair is up or down, the height from the floor to the top of my knee stays constant at around 25.5 inches (I'm a big boy.) So with some of the lower things, I keep scraping my knees.


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## redleicester (Nov 12, 2010)

Well you are a stumpy shortarse Mike


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## sinkd (Nov 12, 2010)

Here's a desk my son helped me design last summer. I have like half of a google sketchup for this-- it has a sliding glass top inspired by Nick's design. Cost me around $450 ($210 just for the tempered glass), but you need a neighbor with a killer table saw and dado stack.

I have found it to be absolutely the most amazing improvement to my workflow ever. But it is built to my exact altitude, if you know what I mean. The whole thing is put together with Kreg pocket screws and can be easily disassembled. The glass top slides forward to reveal my RD-170 whenever I need it for sequencing. Most of the time I leave it kind of half exposed so that the keys are there for epic "fiddling." as needed. Even with the keyboard half exposed, the mac keypad and rollerball/mouse are comfortable for typing, etc. 

DS
[/img]


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 12, 2010)

The glass top is very clever, DS, and the whole thing looks very good.

Mike, just so you know: I use the desktop more than the keyboard too - even when I'm writing music! This is a lousy iPhone photo my wife snapped of me sitting back in my usual position that makes the point.




http://gallery.me.com/virtualinstruments#100261/IMG_0180&bgcolor=black


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## ChrisAxia (Nov 13, 2010)

Hi guys,

I'm amazed how many of you have your computer keyboards above your piano keyboards. When I had a setup like that, it killed my arm and shoulder. I chose an Argosy console several years ago, but added an Omnirax sliding and height adjustable keyboard drawer. I now don't have to reach over anything and am in the perfect position for editing. When I want to play piano, I raise up my chair a few inches, slide the keyboard drawer in a little and have a comfortable playing environment also. Works for me!

~Chris


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## redleicester (Nov 13, 2010)

My keyboard and my MC Pro are above the piano :D


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## rgames (Nov 13, 2010)

I think the setup depends a lot on how you work. I spend probably less than 10% of my time actually playing, so I don't care to have the piano in front of me all the time. I tried a bunch of different desks but they were all uncomfortable for the 90% of the time I'm not actually playing anything.

So I just moved my main keyboard off to the side and put another monitor on a music stand (it clones the monitor I use for the project window in Cubase). Computer keyboard and mouse are wireless so I just shift them over. I also keep a 61-key controller on the desk while I'm working so I can play the odd passage here and there. But it's light and has only one connection (USB) so it's easy to put back over on the rack when I don't need it.

As soon as this desk dies I'm getting something better - it's basically a POS - I don't recommend it. But it's big and flat, so that's good enough for now...

rgames


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 13, 2010)

> I'm amazed how many of you have your computer keyboards above your piano keyboards. When I had a setup like that, it killed my arm and shoulder



Then I'm guessing you didn't have your forearms supported. Arm and shoulder pain - and carpal tunnel problems - are caused by using your muscles to create the support.


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## redleicester (Nov 13, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Nov 13 said:


> > I'm amazed how many of you have your computer keyboards above your piano keyboards. When I had a setup like that, it killed my arm and shoulder
> 
> 
> 
> Then I'm guessing you didn't have your forearms supported. Arm and shoulder pain - and carpal tunnel problems - are caused by using your muscles to create the support.



That's the ticket - as long as you're comfortable and supported, you can have things virtually anywhere.

Just found this of my old temp studio before moving last year - was very quickly slapped together (all the server room gear is behind the camera, rather than in another room!), but it shows the desk fairly plainly.

Oh. And some quite horrid chintz curtains!

The PC88 is set in to the surface of the desk, and the MCP mounted flush with the read of it, so it all feels like one single piece, thus as the piano is that little bit lower than the rest, I can safely lean on it to type, plus as it's flush with the front of the desk rather than sliding in and out, I'm always sat in exactly the same position with regard to monitoring position and seeing the screens.

Basically I don't need to move to do anything..... except refill the coffee pot.


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## gsilbers (Nov 13, 2010)

what helped me was to use "rack shelves" to make a slider for my keyboard.. a virus TI , the 1st gen which are HEAVY +tall and now its under the desk and it slider open easily when i need to use it. 
the desk is a simple wood ikea desk with covered sides (where u hook up the rack slides/shelves) 
its my own ikeahack


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## a.leung (Nov 13, 2010)

Buy Nicks. Its top quality and less then what this monster cost!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 13, 2010)

That monster is pretty gorgeous! Bubinga, right?


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## Animus (Nov 13, 2010)

a.leung @ Sat Nov 13 said:


> Buy Nicks. Its top quality and less then what this monster cost!



That photo has been heavily Photoshoped from the looks of it. :D


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## redleicester (Nov 14, 2010)

That's fun!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 14, 2010)

Not really Chris, I don't think so. Please see the picture I linked in my last post.

You need to have your forearms on something for your shoulders (and forearms) to be relaxed; whether your forearms are totally horizontal doesn't seem to make a difference.

I've personally never been a fan of computer keyboard drawers, but if your arms are on chair arms they could work.

You also have to remember that in my set-up you're moving the desk over the MIDI keyboard a lot, because that's the most comfortable writing position.


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## ChrisAxia (Nov 14, 2010)

I see. Yes, your setup looks quite comfortable!

~C


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 14, 2010)

That's an interesting concept, JJ!


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## madbulk (Nov 14, 2010)

Hey Mike, 

This is a pic from kkaudio's custom page. I think this is probably the desk they built for Bill Brown. Mine is the same but kooler I say  because I had them put the 88 keys on a slider and do a smaller cutout -- so I have way more desk. Only the keys of my controller are visible. Could slide the Motif out if I wanted to see controls for some reason but I haven't hit a button or turned a knob on it in years. 

Our bb won't let me post a pic this big... sorry have to click.
http://www.kkaudio.com/images/desks/gra ... d-desk.png

The thing is, you call them up and they say, "What if you could have EVERYTHING you want? What would that look like?"
And you get it. And all your gear is where you would want it. And you get a desk you can jump up and down on. And the whole thing looks like any beautiful heavy console with nice round smooth corners.

Good luck.


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## germancomponist (Nov 14, 2010)

Here is a picture of mine composing desk. 

Sorry that you can not see the complete desk. 
This was a test-photo to test the camera, and then.... Battery empty. :mrgreen: 

It is built with eucalyptus wood, two racks (one on the left and one on the right)


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## jleckie (Nov 14, 2010)

a.leung @ Sat Nov 13 said:


> Buy Nicks. Its top quality and less then what this monster cost!



That is BEAUTIFUL man. Sweet. What kind of wood is that? African? South American?


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## Mike Greene (Nov 15, 2010)

This is great stuff, guys. Thanks for this. There are a lot of interesting ideas here. Now I have to decide if I want to go cheap and simple, or spend a few bucks.

Or custom design something, which is the way I'm leaning at the moment. I like Nick's design the most, but I do worry about working so many hours with the mouse and keyboard that high. I have an idea to remedy that, but I'm not so sure that's a good use of my time right now, what with NAMM coming up and me once again being not ready for it. In any event, these ideas are very much appreciated.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 15, 2010)

Again Mike, come over anytime and check it out. (Not because I want to sell you a desk, but because I enjoy being right.  )

I'm a little under 6' 1" - although with pretty long legs relative to my torso - and it's totally comfortable for me. You're at least four inches taller, so it's going to be even less of an issue.


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## Walra48 (Nov 15, 2010)

I like Nick's desk concept at lot - but I use 4 monitors in an array. That desk looks more suitable for one or two screens. The KK stuff is great but pricey. I've got their speaker stands. Again, things change in this game so fast its hard to invest a lot of $ in something that's not flexible and may not suit your needs in a few years.


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## jamwerks (Nov 15, 2010)

Check this out: [/img]


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 15, 2010)

KK's stuff is good.

Yeah, you have to raise the speakers above the computer monitor if you need a speaker in the middle. I can't think of any other solution.

And I also agree about furniture that's not tied to one piece of equipment, e.g. a particular console.


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## Dan Mott (Nov 15, 2010)

Here's mine. Nothing compare to any of you, but I just used what I had hehe.


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## Ian Livingstone (Nov 16, 2010)

here's mine on the day it was assembled pre-gear


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## Nick Harvey (Nov 16, 2010)

I attached a piece of wood for my computer keyboard and mouse on to the front of the desk to hang over my controller keyboard. Find it really useful.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 16, 2010)

I think I'm going back to my original set-up: putting my keyboard on an ironing board in the living room.


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## germancomponist (Nov 16, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> I think I'm going back to my original set-up: putting my keyboard on an ironing board in the living room.








:mrgreen: o=<


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## adg21 (Nov 23, 2010)

I spent nearly zero money on my desk but it functions exactly as I want it. 

thing I found most irritating to suss out was the keybord : mouse/computer-keyboard setting which is the single most important thing. Do you have your keyboard in front or behind the mouse/keyboard? For me I wanted my keys to feel like a piano so I opted for the having my mouse/computer-keyboard behind it. Next thing to sort out is how to limit the stretch over the piano-keyboard to get to the computer mouse/keyboard controls. What I found was that 50% of my 88 keys keyboard depth is controls - knobs, faders, buttons - and 50% the keys themselves. The best solution is to have a 2 level desk system where you can slide the 88 keys underneath the desk so you have only the black and white keys protruding and not the controls (and simply slide out to use the controls when you need - in my case I don't use the controls much anyway). this probably all sounds obvious but it got me thinking.

Second thing is height. You don't need to adjust the height of the desk. Why would you? - you can't adjust the legs of a Steinway. You adjust the stool. So measure a good piano height and stick with that.

Instead of using a two level desk I just bought a massive thick-wood desk and used two bedside tables as plinths to put my 88 keys on half underneath it - plinths are better because you don't have an extra layer of wood between your legs and the base of your 88 keys and makes sliding back and forth possible - if there was wood assembled underneath it sliding the keys back and forward would be pointless as there would still be wood sticking out.

I posted this a while back - just look at the desk not the bricks - those bricks are covered now and look fine - also have a 3rd platform (wood between the bricks)

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18406

this probably all sounds obvious, and my desk is basic and (at least in these pictures) ugly - although I've seen worse in Ikea


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 23, 2010)

Your concept is the same as paolin's (spelling). The difference between DS' and mine is that you don't have a sliding desktop for when you want to write rather than play.

I used to have an Ikea set-up here too, before I came to the same conclusion you did.


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## adg21 (Nov 24, 2010)

Agree, if I had the know how I might have built something like paoling's (mine's kind of the cheap/lazy alternative). I can't speak for paoling's but I'd worry that with any wheeled underpart that holds a heavy 88 keys keyboard that it might move around, or that bashing the keys too hard might break it, or that it might make some rickety noise when you play. His looks like a strong enough build though.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 24, 2010)

Nah.

This is my previous desk - the one made out of Ultimate Support hardware, the one with the sliding desktop the commercial product was based on - and it had wheels:

http://gallery.me.com/virtualinstrument ... olor=black

http://gallery.me.com/virtualinstrument ... or=black61


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## a.leung (Nov 24, 2010)

Nick- just so you now -you need an Apple ID to see the pictures?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 24, 2010)

Okay, try again. Sorry.


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## charlieclouser (Nov 26, 2010)

I still use an old Argosy Dual 15k from a decade ago. I ditched the side racks and cut a chunk of plywood for a flat surface in the center. Made a hole in the flat surface so that my trackball could sit flush, and I use some cheap-o M-Audio 88key thing as a master keyboard since it has the form factor of a popsicle stick. Too many years with bonky, clunky, gigundous master keyboards like K2500s and stuff.... With this setup the knee clearance is 25 inches and the Mac keyboard sits at 30 inches from the floor... perfect.

You can still see my broken Frontier Alphatrack on the left, that's a great hardware replica of the Arrange window's single fader in Logic. The left-hand monitor, kbd, and ball are for ProTools, only used as a stem recorder (mixdown deck) and for infrequent recording sessions out-of-house (drums, orch, etc.). Out-of-house sessions are premixed on PT and then real-time-bounced over to Logic; mixdown goes in the opposite direction. 

At some point I may switch to a Doepfer LMK4 that gets permanently built-in to the front edge of a new desk, but it will probably look basically like this does.


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