# I failed horribly



## dciurlizza (Aug 28, 2018)

It was early 2013 and I was two years into my career as a filmmaker - a film composer. I'd just signed a contract for my first series with semi-major online distribution. The money was amazing and millions of people were going to have access to this show.

I felt on top of the world. "Wow, who knew my career would take off so quickly!"

*THE DAYS LEADING UP TO GETTING FIRED*

10 episodes, 5 - 8 minutes each, and 2 weeks per episode to write music. Plenty of time.

Hard music deadlines were set and rough cuts started to roll in:

Ep 1 - Delivered without a hitch - great music. Good kinds of exciting swear words all around from the team. "F*cking amazing!"​
Ep 2 - Delivery was on time, but too close for comfort. Music quality was not good.​
Ep 3 - Producers had a big meeting with the distributor to screen this episode. I was late on the music and it wasn't even finished when I delivered it (again, late).​
Silence. I didn't hear anything for days. But I didn't think anything of it.

*I GOT AN EMAIL THAT SAID "EMPLOYMENT"*

A few weeks after a brand new year - full of promise & opportunity - I got an email with the subject line "EMPLOYMENT." That's usually an exciting subject line to receive.

Well, see attached image:







That's just part of the email. The rest of it covered next steps and other business stuff.

I'd never been fired from anything up until then. This was a huge failure for me. I was sad and discouraged.

*WHERE I WENT WRONG*

A few weeks later, with a clear mind, I dug into what mistakes I made that got me fired:

Mistake #1 - Being so young in my career, I only wrote music when inspiration called me to it. That was an extremely amateur and selfish move.​
Mistake #2 - When inspiration DID hit, I was a slow writer. I was inexperienced.​
Mistake #3 - I thought I was really good at what I did, but I wasn't even in the ballpark to where I needed to be. I wasn't humble.​
*HOW I IMPROVED*

It took me a while to nail down what I had to do, but I started to improve in my career. I worked on writing more and writing faster. I started focusing on how I could best serve others, rather than myself.

After all that came together, I started seeing major success.

Amazing things happen when you focus on offering major value to the people you're working with.

*IT ISN'T ALWAYS AS BAD AS WE THINK*

Things can seem so devastating in the moment. But often, in hindsight, they aren't as bad as we thought they were.

The show I got fired from came out and it didn't do so well. It got 10's of thousands of views rather than the 100's of thousands or millions that I thought it would get.

The director, who sent that email, and I are still friends. He's still calling me up for really great opportunities.

The producers, who decided to let me go, later mentioned they thought my music was great. It just came down to not sticking to their schedule.

*THIS ISN'T ABOUT ME*

I'm doing a lot right these days, but I have so much more to learn. Many of us are in the same boat.

I actually don't want this post to be about me at all. I want it to be about you. I want to learn more about you.

What experiences can you share? What mistakes have you made and how have you learned from them?


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## creativeforge (Aug 28, 2018)

Great idea to share what you learned, how you learned it, and well done! A slice of reality, then... 

All the best,

Andre


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## Rob Elliott (Aug 28, 2018)

Your story reminds of what a Director told me early on in my career. 'If you are early you are on-time - If you are on-time you are late.' Brutal, but I find this to be true with most projects. Also, I take the position that there are tons of wonderful composers who can do just as good a job as me. So 'service' really is the only differential. For sure service includes one item you already mentioned (schedule/delivery) but it also means...do I handle the collaborative nature of this business. Can I take direction? Do I realize it's really not about my music but how it is solving issues for the film. Is the score making it a better film? When rejection comes (and it will if you are pushing your comfort zone enough) - can I eat humble pie and do something the Director/Producer wants and I do not? It's all about the end game with films / TV shows - are folks 'getting it' - this often is largely supported/fixed with the score (it might have been John Williams who said 'My job is to solve problems...' - so true. It's not concert music. 

Having said this - I LOVE this process - because with all but a few bad project experiences, this process has made me a better multi-media composer. My craft is better because of it.


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## creativeforge (Aug 28, 2018)

Rob Elliott said:


> For sure service includes one item you already mentioned (schedule/delivery) but it also means...do I handle the collaborative nature of this business. Can I take direction? Do I realize it's really not about my music but how it is solving issues for the film. Is the score making it a better film? When rejection comes (and it will if you are pushing your comfort zone enough) - can I eat humble pie and do something the Director/Producer wants and I do not? It's all about the end game with films / TV shows - are folks 'getting it' - this often is largely supported/fixed with the score (it might have been John Williams who said 'My job is to solve problems...' - so true.



Makes rejection a non-personal issue, and so you live longer and better... instead of loner and bitter... That's probably a key to longevity and continued work in the milieu. Who wants to be creatively involved with the wrong kind of collaborators always making it about their music? "It's about the project." 

I'm always amazed at the number of people's names scrolling on the screen in the end. Tip-of-the-hat to those who are instrumental in facilitating the flow of ideas and the completing of the final vision in the midst of highly driven creatives...


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## ScarletJerry (Aug 28, 2018)

Rob Elliott said:


> Your story reminds of what a Director told me early on in my career. 'If you are early you are on-time - If you are on-time you are late.' Brutal, but I find this to be true with most projects. Also, I take the position that there are tons of wonderful composers who can do just as good a job as me. So 'service' really is the only differential. For sure service includes one item you already mentioned (schedule/delivery) but it also means...do I handle the collaborative nature of this business. Can I take direction? Do I realize it's really not about my music but how it is solving issues for the film. Is the score making it a better film? When rejection comes (and it will if you are pushing your comfort zone enough) - can I eat humble pie and do something the Director/Producer wants and I do not? It's all about the end game with films / TV shows - are folks 'getting it' - this often is largely supported/fixed with the score (it might have been John Williams who said 'My job is to solve problems...' - so true. It's not concert music.
> 
> Having said this - I LOVE this process - because with all but a few bad project experiences, this process has made me a better multi-media composer. My craft is better because of it.



That quote is a variation of what my High School band director would tell us: "To be early is to be on time. To be on time is to be late." It's a powerful, true statement.


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## chillbot (Aug 28, 2018)

You got a ton of nice comments a month and a half ago on perspectives. Why post again here? Just curious.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 28, 2018)

It's a terribly depressing story to be honest.


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## X-Bassist (Aug 28, 2018)

dciurlizza said:


> Yeah, I failed pretty horribly.
> 
> It was early 2013 and I was two years into my career as a filmmaker - a film composer. I'd just signed a contract for my first series with semi-major online distribution. The money was amazing and millions of people were going to have access to this show.
> 
> ...



I'm sure there were a number of variables, but whenever working on a series I always have to plan way ahead. I may only have a few weeks heads up but I try to build a pallet of sounds for the show. If I've done the pilot I extrapolate on the session and try to find more possibilities in the same musical "world". Nothing to picture, because picture always comes at the last minute. But many sounds and ideas, hopefully culminating in a number of motifs that I can pull from when inspiration gets low, usually around episode 5 or 6 if all is going well, episode 2 or 3 if it's not.

Two weeks per episode is great, but I would still be trying to get as much of it done in the first few days as possible, since tweaks, reviews, fixes, mixing and delivery can eat up a week, or at least a few days, on the tail end. Most shows like this nowadays are a few days to a week, and that's from picture drop off to stem delivery. But once you have a musical pallette for the show that everyone likes things can get smoother. They can also throw you a curve ball- a western or musical episode for instance- then your scrambling again. 

I use to mix with composers that would set all kinds of synths up and leave them on and tweaked in for the duration of the series, just to save them the time of powering up and down and setting knobs. Every little time saver- templetes, prep work, pre writing, system update, keyboard shortcuts, even high speed internet (waiting for picture delivery can be a bee-otch), adds precious minutes to writing time, rather than tech time.

I'm thankful to be geting more time on films. Seems independents are getting better at allowing for a post production process, rather than a mad dash for the premiere date of a studio picture. Hopefully this trend will continue.


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## gregh (Aug 29, 2018)

thanks for this great story - my background is in science as much as music and a friend (who made a major discovery regarding glucose transport across cell membranes with major ramifications for the treatment of diabetes) told me of shifting to work in the US. Can't remember where - maybe Institutes of Health - big promotion. He was going in to work late after dinner one night, feeling very virtuous, very ahead of the game. He gets in the lift as another guy gets out. He recognises the guy getting out - he has a Nobel prize. Thinks - I'm going back in for an hour or so, feeling pretty special and hard working, and this guy is only just finishing up - and he's got a Nobel prize! Man my ego is out of control etc etc

What I learnt from my time as a scientist is that turning up on time, delivering on time, being on the ball are where professionals start. You can get away with being very eccentric, maybe even difficult to deal with, but you only get so many chances and if you can't deliver then opportunities dry up. And in science you meet some incredibly smart people - people who are always the smartest in any room - so being reliable and working hard is as much a must as I am sure it is in professional music.


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## charlieclouser (Aug 29, 2018)

Great but late won't make the slate.


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## Manaberry (Aug 29, 2018)

Thanks @dciurlizza for sharing your experiences. Really helpful!


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## MaxOctane (Aug 29, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> Great but late won't make the slate.



Why the hate, mate? The date is late, but if the days are eight but he can create something great and ornate, why not rate it straight? Don't berate or deflate. Don't deprecate, and don't wait to state: _This is fate! My musical soulmate!_


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## lokotus (Aug 29, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> Great but late won't make the slate.


not always true. I assisted a composer who actually was always late, but every time he did make a phone call explaining the situation. He said - its important to be on time, but this time it is more important to deliver good staff than fast stuff. He got another project from the same director afterwards...It depends on the production...


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## lokotus (Aug 29, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> It's a terribly depressing story to be honest.


I wouldn't call it depressing. The story just reminds us that we are employed for the project to "solve a problem". If we create problems by not being "on time", then it will be our problem.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 29, 2018)

lokotus said:


> I wouldn't call it depressing. The story just reminds us that we are employed for the project to "solve a problem". If we create problems by not being "on time", then it will be our problem.



Sure. But I find that depressing in itself. It's really terrible that for people who want to make some kind of living off of it, music becomes this stressful thing were one of the main objectives becomes to successfully race the clock.

It's very much the opposite of what a creative environment should and must be. I never got into music to have a lot of stress, go crazy and feel bad about myself. But that's when things become an "industry". It always makes me kind of sad reading these kinds of things.


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 29, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Sure. But I find that depressing in itself. It's really terrible that for people who want to make some kind of living off of it, music becomes this stressful thing were one of the main objectives becomes to successfuly race the clock.
> 
> It's very much the opposite of what a creative environment should and must be. I never got into music to have a lot of stress, go crazy and feel bad about myself. But that's when things become an "industry". It always makes me kind of sad reading these kinds of things.



I completely agree. I have been writing music for most of my life, and today I barely scrape by with the month's rent. Writing music for money can be overwhelmingly depressing today.

I had to change myself inside; there needed to _*be*_ a change. Since I obviously loved music with everything in me, I had to_ look _at making it as being essentially, monetarily valueless...more specifically, to see my music as being worthwhile only to myself and my girl. I started consciously thinking that nothing I wrote was inherently valuable as a commodity.

This opened up huge vistas for me. I'd do what I had to do for rent, but most of the time I wrote for me and her, and I ended up consistently inspired and motivated. I loved making music again. No depression...how could there be? I wasn't writing for anyone's expectations, and I was really happy again.

Just me, and this might not work for many.


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## lokotus (Aug 29, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I completely agree. I have been writing music for most of my life, and today I barely scrape by with the month's rent. Writing music for money can be overwhelmingly depressing today.
> 
> I had to change myself inside; there needed to _*be*_ a change. Since I obviously loved music with everything in me, I had to_ look _at making it as being essentially, monetarily valueless...more specifically, to see my music as being worthwhile only to myself and my girl. I started consciously thinking that nothing I wrote was inherently valuable as a commodity.
> 
> ...



I think in context: Writing music for yourself that people might also begin to like is a good way of not going into depression mood. The difficult thing is: How many people can really earn something from this approach like "writing" the first vangelis or enigma albums ?

Today, you write to meet the vision (& deadlines) of directors / Producers / etc... And I guess this can also be compared to the past - writing number 1000 divertimenti Haydn does not really sound like a lot of fun. You do it to pay the rent and write something else (with "inspiration") to get a mental balance...


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 29, 2018)

One thing I learned is that Edison had a point: genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration. I think the latter part is what separates the hobbyist from the pro (and btw, I have total respect for hobbyists).

Too many people want to be "idea" persons...to the point where whenever I meet someone whom proclaims that designation I smile politely and get anxious to not deal with that person (I suffer the same reaction when people try to tell me they're a professional DJ...or critic).

It's the people who can sustain their concentration, their *focus*, long enough to get past endless stacking of 8 bar loops and make a full musical statement, who will fly. It takes study, study, study and too much work (the hardest part of my seventeen year relationship with my lady is the ungodly amount of time I spend on music...sound familiar to anyone?).

Just my opinion.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 29, 2018)

dciurlizza said:


> What experiences can you share? What mistakes have you made and how have you learned from them?



1) I used to take rejection of my music personally. I now a VERY thick skin and realize it's all business. If you don't develop the thick skin, you are setting yourself up for failure and a huge lack of self esteem.

2) Prior to my first feature length film, I thought I knew how to score to picture in Cubase....how wrong I was! After all the instruction from the editor (when the reels were sent) I spent the first several days scouring YouTube and forums for certain technical aspects I was clueless about. Fortunately, I pulled though ahead of schedule and it was a success. Moral of the story? If you plan on scoring to picture, spend your downtime learning the process the best you can BEFORE taking on the gig. And always spend time digging deeper into your DAW, this should be an ongoing process.

3) If there's even the slightest uncertainty about what the director (or client) wants, ask, ask, ask. If you're going "I'm pretty sure this is what he meant", it probably isn't (been there, done that, got the t-shirt).

4) Clear up any contract details _before_ the ball starts rolling, don't wait until mid-project....or worse, at the end. I know this is one of the toughest things for most of us to confront, but it's a necessary evil. I have been burnt by this more times than I care to discuss.

5) Don't take on a project that you feel you aren't qualified for. This could be technical or even artistic. For example, if a director offers you a sweet gig that requires a score of 1920's authentic sounding Big Band music, and you've never written any of this in your life, swallow your losses and politely reject the offer. Otherwise, you will most likely fail, and that's a black mark against you. Again, I made this mistake once...but fortunately, it turned out to be a success (although I won't take on such projects ever again)


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## dciurlizza (Aug 29, 2018)

creativeforge said:


> Great idea to share what you learned



Thanks Andre! Glad you connected with it.



Rob Elliott said:


> Your story reminds of what a Director told me early on in my career. 'If you are early you are on-time - If you are on-time you are late.'



Interestingly, I knew about this idea even before my early experience. That said, I didn't _get it_ until I went through what that actually meant... and dealt with the consequences of it.

I really connect with what you're saying, because ultimately it's about serving and respecting our collaborators - going beyond for them and giving them the best we can offer.



chillbot said:


> You got a ton of nice comments a month and a half ago on perspectives. Why post again here? Just curious.



Yeah I did! Man, people really connected with it there. I'm posting on here because if these sorts of stories can help others going through their own versions of "failure," it's worth sharing again - especially to a different audience.

Plus, we to benefit from other helpful insights like the ones from @Wolfie2112 (lovin' your music and love what you're saying, Jeremy!).



charlieclouser said:


> Great but late won't make the slate.



Hahah truth. I think that's that's the beauty of "fail fast and fail often" - ever since that happened, late is something I ain't.



Manaberry said:


> Thanks @dciurlizza for sharing your experiences. Really helpful!



It's truly a pleasure!



MaxOctane said:


> Why the hate, mate? The date is late, but if the days are eight but he can create something great and ornate, why not rate it straight? Don't berate or deflate. Don't deprecate, and don't wait to state: _This is fate! My musical soulmate!_



Hahaha what a ride!!



Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I never got into music to have a lot of stress, go crazy and feel bad about myself. But that's when things become an "industry".



I tend to enjoy the excitement that comes with the jobs that "needed it tomorrow" - it's a fun challenge to me. But I'm not limited to just those projects - I can also choose to work on stuff that's slower in pace, or have my teammates help me on stuff so it's not as intense. It's a happy balance.

Since you don't like those sorts of projects, what does your process look like? Do you pick projects that are slower paced, or do you do other music-related work that's suited to your preference?



Parsifal666 said:


> I wasn't writing for anyone's expectations, and I was really happy again.



LOVE this so much. _So_ happy you're doing this!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 30, 2018)

dciurlizza said:


> Since you don't like those sorts of projects, what does your process look like? Do you pick projects that are slower paced, or do you do other music-related work that's suited to your preference?



Lately I've been doing music-unrelated work to pay the bills. It has kind of liberated music again for me. Hustling had soured the whole thing quite a bit. And having that happen was way more hurtful than not "making it" ultimately could ever do, I can tell you that.

Working regularly has also taught me some things. I'm paid by the hour. Every day counts. I'm not lifting a finger if I'm not being paid. Because that's time of my life I'm giving away. And everyone's on the same page with that. No bullshit. It has taught me the value of my time, and me showing up. No way I would be willing to put up with all the sketchy nonsense in the entertainment industry any more. I know how to get paid for every single hour of work I do. Don't need anyone wasting my time and promising me good karma and fairy dust for my effort.

I only ever truly enjoyed projects where we had sufficient time, could balance life and work out healthily, were sincere and could play off of each other's creative energy and what everyone brought to the table. It was always a ton of work and not free of setbacks, unexpected catastrophies (tech will always completely fail you when you really can't have it at all!) and tight spots. But that's manageable as long as you're having fun and everyone feels that we're working towards something cool. But to be honest, to me it doesn't seem like that very often.

I needed a lot of time to recover and be able to find that place of innocence and discovery again. It can get quite scary - sometimes believing that it's never gonna come back.

I feel that many artistic people have this terrible fear of working a "normal" job and living a life of responsibility. But honestly, I don't even think it's that much wanting to do nothing but music in your whole life, but just realizing deep inside that this default mode of existance - slaving away for someone else's benefit - is actually a sick thing, and trying to find ways to get away from that.

Work is hell. Yes. But music is home. I can handle a march through hell. But home becoming hell - can't have that.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 30, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I feel that many artistic people have this terrible fear of working a "normal" job and living a life of responsibility.



Glad I don't fall into that category. Are these artists THAT wimpy? Give me a break. There are a bazillion other non-musical jobs in the world, surely there must be something that these people could tolerate. Life is not easy, we all have bills to pay. Just need keep a good balance between artistic merit, ones passions, and a means for paying the bills and other life necessities.


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## creativeforge (Aug 30, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Lately I've been doing music-unrelated work to pay the bills. It has kind of liberated music again for me. Hustling had soured the whole thing quite a bit. And having that happen was way more hurtful than not "making it" ultimately could ever do, I can tell you that.
> 
> Working regularly has also taught me some things. I'm paid by the hour. Every day counts. I'm not lifting a finger if I'm not being paid. Because that's time of my life I'm giving away. And everyone's on the same page with that. No bullshit. It has taught me the value of my time, and me showing up. No way I would be willing to put up with all the sketchy nonsense in the entertainment industry any more. I know how to get paid for every single hour of work I do. Don't need anyone wasting my time and promising me good karma and fairy dust for my effort.
> 
> ...



What lucid and sobering comments, thanks for this, Jimmy... Finding balance is something, maintaining it is everything. Sacrifices are good for a while, but not all of them and not as a lifestyle.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 30, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Glad I don't fall into that category. Are these artists THAT wimpy?



Well, it's a gross generalisation of course. But I do get the feeling that at least some of them are. Just like most "normal" people out there could never seriously entertain the idea of breaking out of the cycle, living life on their own terms, doing their own thing and walking the unbeaten path - which is what many artists attempt. It terrifies the heck out of most people. So it's kind of two sides of the same medal, I guess.

There are certain things about some artists I could never really relate to though. The mantras of "humility" for example - oh, you're here to serve the bigger picture, it's not about you, be happy that they're giving you work, smile while they're screwing your behind, and stuff like that. You hear that a lot among music people. I find it alienating. I prefer being more pragmatic. You need me and my work or not?


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 30, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Just like most "normal" people out there could never seriously entertain the idea of breaking out of the cycle, living life on their own terms, doing their own thing and walking the unbeaten path - which is what many artists attempt. It terrifies the heck out of most people. So it's kind of two sides of the same medal, I guess.
> 
> There are certain things about some artists I could never really relate to though. The mantras of "humility" for example - oh, you're here to serve the bigger picture, it's not about you, be happy that they're giving you work, smile while they're screwing your behind, and stuff like that. You hear that a lot among music people. I find it alienating. I prefer being more pragmatic. You need me and my work or not?



I so feel all of this. Back when I was doing Rock opera...it was my first album, and I was so excited to finally be what for me was living the dream (I got to work with a few of my lifelong heroes for singers) I had that "just glad to be here" attitude. PLEASE EVERYONE HERE LEARN FROM MY MISTAKE! I ended up with an album that was NOT what I wanted, and today I'm doing everything I can to have it rerecorded the way it was MEANT BY ME to be done.

As far as the road less travelled, I'll go all hair metal on you folks (while at the same time making my fellow pig men happy):


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 30, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I ended up with an album that was NOT what I wanted, and today I'm doing everything I can to have it rerecorded the way it was MEANT BY ME to be done.



Which one was that? Maybe I know it.


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 30, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Which one was that? Maybe I know it.



Like all my albums, it _*sucked*_ abominably (but at least I'm not afraid of the truth lol!).


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 30, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Well, it's a gross generalisation of course. But I do get the feeling that at least some of them are. Just like most "normal" people out there could never seriously entertain the idea of breaking out of the cycle, living life on their own terms, doing their own thing and walking the unbeaten path - which is what many artists attempt. It terrifies the heck out of most people. So it's kind of two sides of the same medal, I guess.
> 
> There are certain things about some artists I could never really relate to though. The mantras of "humility" for example - oh, you're here to serve the bigger picture, it's not about you, be happy that they're giving you work, smile while they're screwing your behind, and stuff like that. You hear that a lot among music people. I find it alienating. I prefer being more pragmatic. You need me and my work or not?



Well, I can assure you that I tried giving up the "musical dream" years ago.....I ended up walking around feeling like zombie with my soul crushed. Thankfully I don't mind working my non-musical career, but you are right, we creative types are different, as we are just not wired for things such as the corporate world (as an example).


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## Beluga (Aug 30, 2018)

If you failed so horribly why do you have to come here and make some sort of motivational post about it? We all fail. All the time. In many cases it’s unavoidable. Sorry, it feels like you are expecting some kind of medal for failing. Can’t see the point of the post.


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## MaxOctane (Aug 30, 2018)

Beluga said:


> If you failed so horribly why do you have to come here and make some sort of motivational post about it? We all fail. All the time. In many cases it’s unavoidable. Sorry, it feels like you are expecting some kind of medal for failing. Can’t see the point of the post.



Hi Beluga. He is sharing a story about a meaningful experience in his musical career. That is 100% a valid post for this sub-forum. It's also implicitly an invitation for others to share interesting stories as well. 

Personal failure isn't discussed openly nearly enough, in this industry or probably any. It's good to talk about these things. And while _you've_ learned the lesson that we all fail all the time, for many people this is still a tough pill to swallow. In other posts on VI-C, people have shared their struggles with feeling like they'll never succeed, questioning what success is, Impostor Syndrone, and outright depression.


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## Beluga (Aug 30, 2018)

MaxOctane said:


> Hi Beluga. He is sharing a story about a meaningful experience in his musical career. That is 100% a valid post for this sub-forum. It's also implicitly an invitation for others to share interesting stories as well.
> 
> Personal failure isn't discussed openly nearly enough, in this industry or probably any. It's good to talk about these things. And while _you've_ learned the lesson that we all fail all the time, for many people this is still a tough pill to swallow. In other posts on VI-C, people have shared their struggles with feeling like they'll never succeed, questioning what success is, Impostor Syndrone, and outright depression.


Just tired of the motivational BS. Look at me, I failed 5 years ago at something but these are the invaluable life lessons I have learned that make me a better man today and I am sharing them with you so you may all benefit from it. Jawn.. I’m aware my post is politically incorrect though.


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## dciurlizza (Aug 30, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I needed a lot of time to recover and be able to find that place of innocence and discovery again. It can get quite scary - sometimes believing that it's never gonna come back.



Ultimately, it seems like you've decided on what kind of lifestyle you want to live - that's great. Reminds me of one of my best friends who I used to play music with. He also enjoys going to work from 9 to 5, getting paid his salary, coming back home to pursue hobbies, fix his truck, and waste time on YouTube for a bit. He doesn't feel the need to play music anymore, but he's happy. I have a lot of respect for that guy.

Glad you've found your balance too, Jimmy.



Beluga said:


> why do you have to come here and make some sort of motivational post



A while back, I figured out that I really enjoy helping people - it's what drives me personally and creatively.

Motivational/mindset-improving conversations can be great, but I mostly love sharing real-world, actionable ideas that people can use right away.

The reason I posted this here is the same reason I spend a few hours every day browsing forums: to learn about the community; figure out what people's struggles are; and - if I have an answer - reply to questions in hopes of offering helpful insights that I've gained from my own experiences or research. I just think it's fun, man.

And it's not totally selfless. I know that helping people will improve my reputation and brand awareness in the long run - that's a big goal for me.

I also use this process to look into who I want to work with in the future. I like finding people with a ton of drive and grit, but are maybe stuck with a problem that I can help with. Sharing posts like this has enabled me to find those people, help them with their careers, and sometimes even hire them for a collaboration.

I like contributing, and I like engaging with our community, you know?


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## dciurlizza (Aug 30, 2018)

gregh said:


> What I learnt from my time as a scientist is that turning up on time, delivering on time, being on the ball are where professionals start. You can get away with being very eccentric, maybe even difficult to deal with, but you only get so many chances and if you can't deliver then opportunities dry up. And in science you meet some incredibly smart people - people who are always the smartest in any room - so being reliable and working hard is as much a must as I am sure it is in professional music.



This is a wonderful insight! Thanks so much for taking the time to write it out.


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## Beluga (Aug 30, 2018)

dciurlizza said:


> I know that helping people will improve my reputation and brand awareness in the long run - that's a big goal for me.


Yes, this is how it feels, sorry man, can’t connect to this type of “real life“ advise especially coming with a click-bait title like this one. Presenting yourself as a personal brand make you appear somewhat flat and shallow, even though you are probably following exactly some well thought through marketing advise from an Internet guru. I guess you can’t expect everyone to react well to this kind of post. Still wishing you all the best, hope you find what you are looking for.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 30, 2018)

dciurlizza said:


> Reminds me of one of my best friends who I used to play music with. He also enjoys going to work from 9 to 5, getting paid his salary, coming back home to pursue hobbies, fix his truck, and waste time on YouTube for a bit. He doesn't feel the need to play music anymore, but he's happy



Well that's an entirely different thing. I haven't given up on music and turned into a societal puppet. I just refuse to toil away writing uninteresting music under laughable conditions. I don't envy people who do that.


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## Strezov (Aug 31, 2018)

Thanks for sharing! Looking back, I made many mistakes in my career but ALWAYS delivered on time. Might be shitty music, not mixed well, but I've never missed a deadline - and people continue to come back (for some reason???).


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## dciurlizza (Aug 31, 2018)

Beluga said:


> Yes, this is how it feels, sorry man, can’t connect to this type of “real life“ advise especially coming with a click-bait title like this one. Presenting yourself as a personal brand make you appear somewhat flat and shallow, even though you are probably following exactly some well thought through marketing advise from an Internet guru.



Do you feel like me fulfilling my aspirations also makes my drive to assist others achieve their goals less helpful or genuine?

Why shouldn't we share stories based on relatable and educational experiences? Why would engaging with our community in this positive way be discouraged, especially if the results could mean the lives/careers of our industry mates may potentially improve because of it?



Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I haven't given up on music



Absolutely. You've figured out what you wanted. You've found your balance, which has ideally led to some sort of happiness. That's a really good place to be, and it reminded me of my buddy who has gone through that same "nonsense in the entertainment industry" experience and "discovery" process. It makes me happy when people find their conclusions in situations, because I understand what that can be like.



Jimmy Hellfire said:


> and turned into a societal puppet.



I wouldn't personally consider someone that has helped send satellites up to space and works on improving nanotechnology a "societal puppet."



Strezov said:


> Thanks for sharing! Looking back, I made many mistakes in my career but ALWAYS delivered on time. Might be shitty music, not mixed well, but I've never missed a deadline - and people continue to come back (for some reason???).



That's fantastic! Missing deadlines was rare for me even then, but still... I used to be too precious with my work, man. I just couldn't send stuff off that wasn't "good enough." I've gotten a lot better at that, but I still find it hard to do. What _has_ changed is I can now produce decent music in an 1/8 of the time it used to take for me to make shit music! Failure can really shock good sense and work ethic into us. Haha

By the way, you're _George_ Strezov, right? It's always awesome connecting with another sampling friend! Love what you guys have done at Strezov Sampling; I went nuts when Balkan Ethnic Orchestra came out - it's so wonderful!


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## Desire Inspires (Aug 31, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I completely agree. I have been writing music for most of my life, and today I barely scrape by with the month's rent. Writing music for money can be overwhelmingly depressing today.



Frightening.


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 31, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> Frightening.



Not really. I actively work on things I don't like maybe an hour a day, four days a week. I have the rest of the day to write as much and whatever I want. I have no kids, plus I live with the love of my life (a lady I've been with for nearly seventeen years now).

I'd love to make more money; however, I'd _*hate*_ to sacrifice my extra time (the time I use to write things far more expressive and personal) for anything...including more money.

I count myself as having a wonderful life, I love it (and even really like me )


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## dciurlizza (Aug 31, 2018)

X-Bassist said:


> I'm sure there were a number of variables, but whenever working on a series I always have to plan way ahead. I may only have a few weeks heads up but I try to build a pallet of sounds for the show. If I've done the pilot I extrapolate on the session and try to find more possibilities in the same musical "world". Nothing to picture, because picture always comes at the last minute. But many sounds and ideas, hopefully culminating in a number of motifs that I can pull from when inspiration gets low, usually around episode 5 or 6 if all is going well, episode 2 or 3 if it's not.
> 
> Two weeks per episode is great, but I would still be trying to get as much of it done in the first few days as possible, since tweaks, reviews, fixes, mixing and delivery can eat up a week, or at least a few days, on the tail end. Most shows like this nowadays are a few days to a week, and that's from picture drop off to stem delivery. But once you have a musical pallette for the show that everyone likes things can get smoother. They can also throw you a curve ball- a western or musical episode for instance- then your scrambling again.
> 
> ...



Just saw this _awesome_ reply! Yes, 100% with you on this. I learned that strategy from Zimmer. Coming up with suites/sound palettes for a project ASAP was so crucial for me. It gets everyone on board and on the same page, and syncing from there can be a piece of cake - especially with the way edits will constantly (and inevitably) change. Filmmakers tend to really enjoy the process too.

Thanks for the in-depth reply!


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## Beluga (Aug 31, 2018)

dciurlizza said:


> Why shouldn't we share stories based on relatable and educational experiences? Why would engaging with our community in this positive way be discouraged, especially if the results could mean the lives/careers of our industry mates may potentially improve because of it?



Ok, you are right, here is a real life story. Last time I fucked up at something, probably last week, I didn’t learn some deeper truth about life. I just fucked up. That’s a true life story, but maybe I should start a separate thread about this.

Anyway, we should stop discussing this otherwise your inspirational thread will end up in the drama section and that’d be a shame.


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 31, 2018)

Beluga said:


> Ok, you are right, here is a real life story. Last time I fucked up at something, probably last week, I didn’t learn some deeper truth about life. I just fucked up. That’s a true life story, but maybe I should start a separate thread about this.
> 
> Anyway, we should stop discussing this otherwise your inspirational thread will end up in the drama section and that’d be a shame.



(cracking up)

This kind of thing is mostly funny just because it's so_ deliberately_ duh.


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## jononotbono (Aug 31, 2018)

I think it's fair game. You didn't deliver on time, you were being paid to do a job and you didn't fulfil your end of the commitment. Live and learn etc. However, I should say... If I ever get to the stage of hiring people to work for me, I would clearly explain that they are allowed at least 2 days a month to phone in and say "I can't hit the deadline today" but ONLY if it's because they are genuinely hungover. If it's anything other than a hangover, they will be instantly sacked. I'm a pretty fair human.


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## dciurlizza (Aug 31, 2018)

Beluga said:


> Ok, you are right, here is a real life story. Last time I fucked up at something, probably last week, I didn’t learn some deeper truth about life. I just fucked up.



Hahah I get that. Yes, some stories are worth telling and some aren't. I have plenty that aren't!



jononotbono said:


> I think it's fair game. You didn't deliver on time, you were being paid to do a job and you didn't fulfil your end of the commitment. Live and learn etc.



Totally agree. Wasn't happy with myself about it, but it was plenty fair!



jononotbono said:


> but ONLY if it's because they are genuinely hungover. If it's anything other than a hangover, they will be instantly sacked. I'm a pretty fair human.



LOL you're a generous man, Luke.


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## jononotbono (Aug 31, 2018)

dciurlizza said:


> LOL you're a generous man, Luke.



Turn up on time.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 1, 2018)

dciurlizza said:


> I wouldn't personally consider someone that has helped send satellites up to space and works on improving nanotechnology a "societal puppet."



Whatever, I don't give a damn about satellites and your friend's profession wasn't specified in your statement. In fact, you _did_ exactly portrait him as a societal puppet - a guy who works 9 to 5, doesn't think about music any more and is just happy to waste time on YouTube after work - and you extended the whole notion to myself. And you reminded us in an insincere, patronizing way how you could see that could be "some kind" of happiness as well.

There's always an overabundance of inspirational quotes and diplomatic all-smiles statements when there are bullshit artists around.


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## dciurlizza (Sep 1, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Whatever, I don't give a damn about satellites and your friend's profession wasn't specified in your statement. In fact, you _did_ exactly portrait him as a societal puppet - a guy who works 9 to 5, doesn't think about music any more and is just happy to waste time on YouTube after work - and you extended the whole notion to myself. And you reminded us in an insincere, patronizing way how you could see that could be "some kind" of happiness as well.
> 
> There's always an overabundance of inspirational quotes and diplomatic all-smiles statements when there are bullshit artists around.



Remember when I mentioned that he's one of my best friends and that I have a lot of respect for him? I did initially connect the two of your journeys in my mind, but I didn't intend to be insincere or demeaning about your experience in any way. Sorry I said things to make you feel like I was patronizing or insincere, Jimmy. Truly.


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## mat1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Well I appreciate the story. You don't always get to hear the struggles of people working in music so it's good to know you're not alone!!


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## dciurlizza (Sep 1, 2018)

mat1 said:


> Well I appreciate the story. You don't always get to hear the struggles of people working in music so it's good to know you're not alone!!



Awesome! Yeah, that seems to be the case. I've learned more from the failures of those in the tech industry than I have from composers.

That said, there are super candid top guys out there that have shared their early (and current) struggles; Trevor Morris just posted one. Lots of helpful insights in those kinds of stories.

Really glad you could connect with this!


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## Beluga (Sep 1, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> There's always an overabundance of inspirational quotes and diplomatic all-smiles statements.



And fake plastic advise coming from people who have not much to show for themselves except telling others how to do it.


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## Parsifal666 (Sep 1, 2018)

Beluga said:


> And fake plastic advise coming from people who have not much to show for themselves except telling others how to do it.



Quoted for truth, yo!


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## Parsifal666 (Sep 1, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> Quoted for truth, yo!




Sorry, total ad lib.


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## dciurlizza (Sep 29, 2018)

Hey Doug! Yeah, let's see here...



douggibson said:


> How, and why did you conclude #3. It does not seem anyone talked about the quality of your music. More of the issue was the turnaround time. (your second point)



I thought I was good at what I did because I fell into the Dunning-Kruger effect: Only being about 24 to 30 months into my career (not even working full time), I knew relatively little about being a _professional_ film composer... yet, my confidence was greater than my experience because I'd done what I thought was a lot of work. This was also around the time I began to learn about how important self-awareness was.

Ultimately, it wasn't the quality of the music that was the problem (for the most part), it was about me being confused with the schedule due to lapses in communication (which, I eventually learned, can be normal) and, most importantly, not having the foresight or the skill to write fast and deliver on time. That's the part I _could _control, and that's the part I wanted to get better at.



douggibson said:


> What specifically did you do? How did you know you were now "up- to - standard" (whatever that means) ? Was there a specific result or moment ? Share that with us.



You know that "custom demo" step from my _Pitching Process_ thread? It was a combo of a lot of that, while also scoring projects I was officially signed to work on (among other things like writing for fun, experimenting with sounds, learning more synth programming, etc.).

For a very long time, I took on every project I could get (I kind of still do, if I have the time) - both free and paid. This helped me focus on writing and creating faster, and generally allowed me the opportunity to do a lot more work in gradually shorter timeframes.

I just got better because of all the intentional practice. It's the same way we'd practice any technique, you know? It's like doing scales every day.

As an example, when I wanted to practice getting my drums bigger for trailers, I made a bunch of music that focused on large-sounding drums. I did that until I was happy with the results.



douggibson said:


> What was one of your mistakes again ?
> 
> Oh yeah....cough.... cough.



"Major success" meant achieving my creative, financial, and personal goals. And I knew I was achieving those because I'd written them down as a point of reference. Plus, both I, and the people I interacted with, were happy and finding value in my actions, which is one of my favorite ways to see if I'm on the right path.

Also, I think there's a huge difference between not being humble, and a strong amount of confidence combined with even more self-awareness. Not being humble can lead to selfish actions when working with others, but aiming our own self-confidence (and self-awareness) towards helping others can do a lot of good.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 29, 2018)

Last night I wet the bed.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 29, 2018)

I am a shlemiel.


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## Michelob (Sep 29, 2018)

Very courageous sharing this here. Thanks and bravo.


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## Beluga (Sep 29, 2018)

dciurlizza said:


> my confidence was greater than my experience


Seems to me it still is. You should consider a career in politics.


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## dciurlizza (Sep 29, 2018)

Michelob said:


> Very courageous sharing this here. Thanks and bravo.



Thanks a ton, Michel! Not looking to be seen as courageous, just looking to help others that might be going through what seems like a bad time in their careers.

After this experience, I learned that failure can be extremely crippling, and it's okay to deal with the feelings that come with that. But experiencing failure can also give us an opportunity to grow, to continue on with more knowledge and, eventually, more confidence to tackle our next obstacle.

Really appreciate your kind and positive words!


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## dciurlizza (Sep 30, 2018)

douggibson said:


> The most important thing is the composer must be good at corporate talk, and be as much a marketer as a composer.
> That's not a knock..... it just seems so obvious that is the direction you should go.



I appreciate the advice, Doug. I love business and everything that comes along with it. Stuff like company culture, marketing, and biz dev are really fun to play with, which is why I like exploring them every day. Plus, having knowledge in those fields is useful when working with filmmakers; I get to come in with rough ideas of how a film (and its score) can better succeed in the market.



douggibson said:


> A second direction is working for places like pandora which get paid to select the music that get played in stores based on marketing research.



Those places have great opportunities, but what I enjoy most is working closely with creators and storytellers. Likewise, you hit the nail on the head with one of your previous replies - I can't help but want to build things and be entrepreneurial.



douggibson said:


> Those are 6 figure gigs too.



Money is important to me, but I don't make decisions based purely on dollar amounts, so the income that comes with those positions doesn't appeal to me (due to the kind of work it is).



douggibson said:


> Fuck this cold calling on Kickstarter shit.



I've found some of my most creatively and personally rewarding projects on Kickstarter! That said, I haven't used this pitching process for more than a year. I don't need it to fill my work schedule right now, but if I did, I think I'd try larger-scale projects from here on out.



douggibson said:


> I suspect you have morales, and that will hold you back.



I know talking about money is still weird for many in our community, but I really think it should be okay to choose transparency (within reason and legal bounds) if it can help people. Here's me being candid...

I believe that having good morals - like always keeping the best interest of others in mind - is the _exact_ thing that's allowing me 6 figures, man. My gut also tells me it's the thing that can take me _and_ the people I interact with beyond that in the long run.

This is a major point I wanted to get across in this post. I think a fundamental part of why I failed on that project so many years ago is because I wasn't thinking about others the same way I do now. After that experience, I realized how much of a disservice it was to the filmmakers (and myself) that I didn't find more ways to write more material faster.

Having good morals isn't holding me back, it's what's bringing me success.

You mentioned earlier that talking about my successes equated to a lack in humility, and I can totally see why it might seem that way on the surface. To elaborate further on what this meant:



dciurlizza said:


> both I, and the people I interacted with, were happy and finding value in my actions, which is one of my favorite ways to see if I'm on the right path.



I don't mind talking about my successes because they're not only _my_ successes. Any time I do well, others benefit too - I'm not the only one getting paid, feeling creatively fulfilled, or being credited in the projects I do. I'm absolutely proud of my successes, because they're happening with huge thanks to (and to the benefit of) all the people I work and interact with.

I truly hope that whoever else reads this gets to understand that having good morals (and the skills to support whatever their goals are) is what'll help them succeed in the long run, not hold them back.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Oct 1, 2018)

dciurlizza said:


> Having good morals isn't holding me back, it's what's bringing me success.
> 
> You mentioned earlier that talking about my successes equated to a lack in humility, and I can totally see why it might seem that way on the surface. To elaborate further on what this meant:
> 
> ...



I absolutely agree that morals are what allow you to go where you need to. If you lack morals you are likely cheat others and there will be no boundaries you will sent with those around you.
This is step one of expliotation and leads to the 'end justifies the means' ideology. One that we all know too well ends in great loss for all.

Well spoken, it is important also never to froget where you came from, great killer of any pride there


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## Erick - BVA (Oct 1, 2018)

I feel a mistake brewing. I've been asked to score a pretty cool looking documentary. The editor seems pretty chill, but I have no inspiration right now, and I'm not sure how to get it. I personally need inspiration. I cannot just write for writing's sake, or for "work's" sake. Maybe that's what I need to work on, just "doing it" even if I don't feel it.


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## Erick - BVA (Oct 1, 2018)

douggibson said:


> It could be that you need to work on ""doing it" even if I don't feel it".
> 
> However it seems clear what your gut says "I feel a mistake brewing."
> 
> ...


That's a nice thought, but unfortunately I really am not in the position to be charitable. It's already hard enough for me to land commissioned work.
I'm kind of the opinion that charity begins at home. I have 2 brothers who dabble in composing, so I'd probably give it to them --haha, kind of kidding. 
But the guy I'm working with gave me quite a bit of time. So I am not pushing the panic button just yet. 
I may consider your suggestion by the end of this week.


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## aaronventure (Oct 1, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> I feel a mistake brewing. I've been asked to score a pretty cool looking documentary. The editor seems pretty chill, but I have no inspiration right now, and I'm not sure how to get it. I personally need inspiration. I cannot just write for writing's sake, or for "work's" sake. Maybe that's what I need to work on, just "doing it" even if I don't feel it.


I used to deal with the exact same problem. It all kinda changed when I had this gig which had me writing pop-ish/rock instrumentals, 1 full piece per day, for something like 3 weeks straight. It went fine for a few days, then I hit the wall. So I just loaded up a playlist, took an afternoon and transcribed away. I delivered that day's piece well into the night. Got up early, transcribed more, delivered the next. I didn't deliver ripoffs, transcribing just gave me ideas and places where to take them. So it's been kind of a habit ever since.

So yes, transcribing always works for me whenever I'm out of ideas. 100% success rate, has never let me down since. I don't even think about it anymore. Do I feel like writing? If I don't, I just go and transcribe whatever I was listening to last or whatever I feel like transcribing, and suddenly the ideas start pouring in.

Can't say that it'll work for everyone, but it sure is better than hitting your head against the wall and missing a deadline. If you're not writing anyway, won't cost you anything to try.

Writer's blocks suck. I wish you the best of luck!


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## Erick - BVA (Oct 1, 2018)

aaronventure said:


> I used to deal with the exact same problem. It all kinda changed when I had this gig which had me writing pop-ish/rock instrumentals, 1 full piece per day, for something like 3 weeks straight. It went fine for a few days, then I hit the wall. So I just loaded up a playlist, took an afternoon and transcribed away. I delivered that day's piece well into the night. Got up early, transcribed more, delivered the next. I didn't deliver ripoffs, transcribing just gave me ideas and places where to take them. So it's been kind of a habit ever since.
> 
> So yes, transcribing always works for me whenever I'm out of ideas. 100% success rate, has never let me down since. I don't even think about it anymore. Do I feel like writing? If I don't, I just go and transcribe whatever I was listening to last or whatever I feel like transcribing, and suddenly the ideas start pouring in.
> 
> ...


Thanks! Great idea. Only I can't really read music. But whenever I've figured out pieces by Chopin, Liszt, or even tried to figure orchestral pieces out on the piano (Debussy's Nuage, Tchaivosky's 6th) I always seem to get good ideas.



douggibson said:


> I may have mis-understood what you were meaning. Writers block is different to not being excited about the subject, and/or working with difficult people.
> 
> Of course, I have no skin in the game. Do what you want. I guess I don't understand the reason for posting then.
> 
> ...



I am inspired by the project itself. It just hasn't translated to my own work yet. Part of it is not knowing what to deliver. I like to write new material which is specific to the project. The man who hired me likes my previous work and said that my music would be perfect for it. I don't want to deliver something he's not expecting just because I want to do something "new" and unique for the project. We may have different expectations.

Well, simple solution I suppose is just to write some stuff and see what he thinks, then edit.

I'm pretty new to this sort of thing. Usually I just write what I want. And that is what brought the guy to me. So now I am supposed to write something for a specific project. I think I'm just going through a normal transition here. I'll figure it out.
Thanks!


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## aaronventure (Oct 1, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> Thanks! Great idea. Only I can't really read music. But whenever I've figured out pieces by Chopin, Liszt, or even tried to figure orchestral pieces out on the piano (Debussy's Nuage, Tchaivosky's 6th) I always seem to get good ideas.


I mostly meant to transcribe by ear. You're making a mental connection with the composer. 

I compose in a way so that I get an idea of a tune in my head (or a muddy draft, at least) and then I'm trying to transcribe from my head what exactly is it that I first heard and express it with my vocabulary (that I'm expanding through transcription). So in a way, if I can sell it to myself that the original composer was going about it the same way, I'm basically roleplaying as him—trying to figure out what the chords, voicings, orchestrations are being used.

On reading music: you're now in the middle of a job, so now's not the time to do it, but come on, man! I don't wanna sound like a gatekeeper, but if you're serious about this music thing, you owe it to yourself to learn to read music. I don't mean sight-read like a London session player, but read to be able to comprehend what's on the page, and with time and practice you'll get even better. Otherwise the doors to an insurmountable amount of musical knowledge are forever closed to you, and you're limited to YouTube videos with questionable analyses (usually done by people with questionable references), paid courses that can only cover so much and some written articles and/or analyses. 

Go straight to the source. It would take you a lifetime to go through everything that's freely available on IMSLP.com, and even one piece will teach you more than most courses, so there's plenty of material where you can study from.

Seriously, download Perfect Ear for Android, take the time-trial sight reading tests until you ace them (shouldn't take you more than a couple of hours, _it's so fucking easy)_. Then open some scores and start reading them. Either play it out on the piano or input into the DAW. *Two weeks*. Put in the work for two weeks and you'll be up and running, ready to conquer the world. I promise you.

I'll stop now, for the fear of derailing the thread, as I haven't actually posted anything of value to the original post so this is a bit dick-ish, but I felt like you could use some words of encouragement.


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## Erick - BVA (Oct 1, 2018)

aaronventure said:


> I mostly meant to transcribe by ear. You're making a mental connection with the composer.
> 
> I compose in a way so that I get an idea of a tune in my head (or a muddy draft, at least) and then I'm trying to transcribe from my head what exactly is it that I first heard and express it with my vocabulary (that I'm expanding through transcription). So in a way, if I can sell it to myself that the original composer was going about it the same way, I'm basically roleplaying as him—trying to figure out what the chords, voicings, orchestrations are being used.
> 
> ...


You're sharing what you've learned, which is part of what the OP wanted  Thanks!


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## dciurlizza (Oct 1, 2018)

aaronventure said:


> I'll stop now, for the fear of derailing the thread, as I haven't actually posted anything of value to the original post so this is a bit dick-ish, but I felt like you could use some words of encouragement.



Not even a micro-level bit of dickishness, man. Love seeing a good conversation, and love seeing people help people.

@Sibelius19 is exactly right about:



Sibelius19 said:


> you're sharing what you've learned, which is part of what the OP wanted



Also, Erick, regarding:



Sibelius19 said:


> I personally need inspiration. I cannot just write for writing's sake, or for "work's" sake. Maybe that's what I need to work on, just "doing it" even if I don't feel it.



I know how you feel. Thing is... this is the exact mentality that led me to getting dropped from the project. I worked solely with inspiration driving me, which is why they thought it was good music... but it also meant I wasn't good at delivering.

As soon as I changed that, my career - and quality of my music - started to improve. Good things can happen when we put in the work, so you're on the right mindset with just "doing it." If you're looking to write music professionally in the long term, I think it's worth it.

Wishin' you luck, Erick. Feel free to contact me if you're looking to explore this further!


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## dciurlizza (Oct 1, 2018)

douggibson said:


> you are missing the humor completely



haha oh man, I really did miss the joke.

In any case, I'm glad I took it at face value because you helped me put my thoughts/feelings into words.



douggibson said:


> old Hunter S Thompson quote



Classic - love that one!


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## Olfirf (Oct 1, 2018)

Sorry if I did not read all posts before, so I might have missed someone writing a similar thing! As much as I like the upfront honesty of your post, I think you and a lot (if not most) of the people writing the comments are dead wrong about the meaning of this! Has it really come this far? Do you really believe in that bullshit that you are basically the slave to some film producer, who is probably only a party whore and just happens to be the producer of a potentially successful show? And you think you need to learn to get faster? Maybe you are right, maybe you really are not up to the task to do that job! But I really cannot keep up with hearing this ass kissing mentality from people about their inadeqasy to do that job fast enough! Hell, if you consider yourself anything more than just an ass kissing slave, you would consider yourself an artist! Well, an artist, as much as this is possible in the world of TV or movies ... it is a superficial world, of course! But yet, it is that kind of superficial world, where some people from time to time happen to leave their mark in doing something "remarkable"! With your attitude, you are mostly leaving a mark as being the greatest ass kisser in history. Is that what you are aiming for? Maybe you should reconsider your goals from a position of some self esteem! It is ok to fail while trying to do that! But the lack of any self esteem from the start is not ok ... at least not with me. I hope you don't mind my being frank, since you seem to be very open with you live and how you live it. I sincerely wish to talk about it, as I really have a problem with how "service oriented" the job of a composer for media seems to have become today ... which only shows how sheepish people seem to have become in general today.


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## Desire Inspires (Oct 1, 2018)

Olfirf said:


> Sorry if I did not red all posts before, so I might have missed someone writing a similar thing! As much as I like the upfront honesty of your post, I think you and a lot (if not most) of the people writing the comments are dead wrong about the meaning of this! Has it really come this far? Do you really believe in that bullshit that you are basically the slave to some film producer, who is probably only a party whore and just happens to be the producer of a potentially successful show? And you think you need to learn to get faster? Maybe you are right, maybe you really have not. Even up to the task to do that job! But I really cannot keep up with hearing this ass kissing mentality from people about their inadeqasy to do that job fast enough! Hell, if you consider yourself anything more than just an ass kissing slave, you would consider yourself an artist! Well, an artist, as much as this is possible in the world of TV or movies ... it is a superficial world, of course! But yet, it is that kind of superficial world, where some people from time to time happen to leave their mark in doing something "remarkable"! With your attitude, you are mostly leaving a mark as being the greatest ass kisser in history. Is that what you are aiming for? Maybe you should reconsider your goals from a position of some self esteem! It is ok to fail while trying to do that! But the lack of any self esteem from the start is not ok ... at least not with me. I hope you don't mind my being frank, since you seem to be very open with you live and how you live it. I sincerely wish to talk about it, as I really have a problem with how "service oriented" the job of a composer for media seems to have become today ... which only shows how sheepish people seem to have become in general today.




Yeah, a lot of people here don’t have a future as anything more than an employee for someone else.

The sad thing is that people are basically taking orders and working for free or low wages for a chance to one day make a middle class wage. 

People who go to school and earn a valued degree will end up ahead of 90% of aspiring composers. The rate of failure is that high. It isn’t some gimmick to keep people down. It is a reality that music is not a highly valuable skill set. 

Does music take talent and dedication? Yes. But will even half of the people who pursue this field make a living wage? Do they make equivalent to $50,000 USD a year? 

So if you are going to end up being an employee for someone else and doing what you are told, you might as well work and make enough money to take care of yourself and your family. 

Composers work too hard putting off life and working hard to build some other person’s dream.


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## dciurlizza (Oct 1, 2018)

Olfirf said:


> I hope you don't mind my being frank, since you seem to be very open with you live and how you live it. I sincerely wish to talk about it



I like that you're being so frank (and are sincerely in it for the conversation) - much respect for this! I actually don't think we entirely disagree... maybe the wording is just a bit different.



Olfirf said:


> Do you really believe in that bullshit that you are basically the slave to some film producer



Where I'm coming from is working as a partnership - a true collaboration between a team of people - rather than being told what to do, or doing things without creative input or further question. Whoever does the latter would not be a valuable contributor to the team.

When I say "serve others," I say it in the way I'd serve my friends - or even someone I've just met, like yourself. I like spending time on people; I like taking the time to talk with you because it's interesting conversation and it makes me happy. I do this with work too.

I don't think everyone has to work this way, but I like doing this because it brings me joy. Additionally, being a musician with this mindset has allowed me to be creatively challenged (in ways that help me improve - which, as an artist, I crave), build healthy relationships (making fun art, having passionate conversation, and consuming good food/drink), and be financially fulfilled.



Olfirf said:


> Maybe you should reconsider your goals from a position of some self esteem!



My strong self-esteem is what allows me the opportunity to not think as much about what I want, and focus more on what others want. I can do this because I feel secure in what I'm doing in life/art/career. I've established my goals - literally written them down - and consistently work towards achieving them.

The beauty of all this is the more I work towards helping others succeed, the more I personally succeed. What's equally as interesting is...

Due to establishing my own goals and having the self-esteem to work towards them, the success I have isn't always _because_ of the people I help, most times it's in parallel to their success... which also adds to their success.

I'm inherently an introvert, and I came from having low self-esteem (and experiencing all the things that comes with that), to very gradually building it up. Because of that (and my empathetic nature), I feel like I understand many parts of the self-esteem spectrum; I like this side much better.



Olfirf said:


> I really have a problem with how "service oriented" the job of a composer for media seems to have become today



True professional/commercial composing has always been a service/value-based business. When businesses don't offer value to their communities, they have no reason to exist... so they go out of business.


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## Harzmusic (Oct 2, 2018)

Olfirf said:


> Do you really believe in that bullshit that you are basically the slave to some film producer, who is probably only a party whore and just happens to be the producer of a potentially successful show?


Right there is a point that I find very problematic while I don't disagree with your general message.
Directors, producers and editors are not the enemy. Sometimes they are, but they shouldn't be seen as such by default. I have only worked in Germany so far, it might be different in Hollywood.
But I feel like I was lucky not to go to music school but media school. I have studied, lived, cried and drank myself stupid with people who later came to be directors, producers and editors in the industry. And when I work with them, they will piss me off as much as any other guy when I thought I did great and they had a billion notes. But at least I don't think they got there by having a rich dad or plain luck. This is their dream, their big question of "can I really do this", and some of them are scared shitless to find out that they actually can't. So they take all the control they can get and want to leave nothing up to chance. Because if the movie is not what it could have been, it is their fault, not ours.
If you want to carry this weight on your shoulders and make all the decisions: become a producer or director.
If you don't: live with the fact that they often invested way more into this project before you even heard of it and they are human. Or choose a different field than composing for film. This has always been a service, it didn't just become that way.

I believe I have to arrange myself with the simple facts of the industry. Accept them and learn to work with and around them. Only then I can be in a state of mind to create something remarkable as you said. Because the best music doesn't come from a resentful or arrogant place.


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## dciurlizza (Oct 2, 2018)

Harzmusic said:


> Right there is a point that I find very problematic while I don't disagree with your general message.
> Directors, producers and editors are not the enemy. Sometimes they are, but they shouldn't be seen as such by default. I have only worked in Germany so far, it might be different in Hollywood.
> But I feel like I was lucky not to go to music school but media school. I have studied, lived, cried and drank myself stupid with people who later came to be directors, producers and editors in the industry. And when I work with them, they will piss me off as much as any other guy when I thought I did great and they had a billion notes. But at least I don't think they got there by having a rich dad or plain luck. This is their dream, their big question of "can I really do this", and some of them are scared shitless to find out that they actually can't. So they take all the control they can get and want to leave nothing up to chance. Because if the movie is not what it could have been, it is their fault, not ours.
> If you want to carry this weight on your shoulders and make all the decisions: become a producer or director.
> ...



Thank you so much for this, Steffen. We dream, cry, drink and fear here too.


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## Erick - BVA (Oct 2, 2018)

Olfirf said:


> Sorry if I did not read all posts before, so I might have missed someone writing a similar thing! As much as I like the upfront honesty of your post, I think you and a lot (if not most) of the people writing the comments are dead wrong about the meaning of this! Has it really come this far? Do you really believe in that bullshit that you are basically the slave to some film producer, who is probably only a party whore and just happens to be the producer of a potentially successful show? And you think you need to learn to get faster? Maybe you are right, maybe you really are not up to the task to do that job! But I really cannot keep up with hearing this ass kissing mentality from people about their inadeqasy to do that job fast enough! Hell, if you consider yourself anything more than just an ass kissing slave, you would consider yourself an artist! Well, an artist, as much as this is possible in the world of TV or movies ... it is a superficial world, of course! But yet, it is that kind of superficial world, where some people from time to time happen to leave their mark in doing something "remarkable"! With your attitude, you are mostly leaving a mark as being the greatest ass kisser in history. Is that what you are aiming for? Maybe you should reconsider your goals from a position of some self esteem! It is ok to fail while trying to do that! But the lack of any self esteem from the start is not ok ... at least not with me. I hope you don't mind my being frank, since you seem to be very open with you live and how you live it. I sincerely wish to talk about it, as I really have a problem with how "service oriented" the job of a composer for media seems to have become today ... which only shows how sheepish people seem to have become in general today.



It's not bullshit, it's reality. You can sure try to will the universe to work for you or hope that your passion gets you paid. But you may just be shooting yourself in the foot. I write music for passion and for the love of it, but I think it's important to recognize that what we want may not always be what's best. I think it's somewhat arrogant and egotistical to basically say on the music side "my way or the highway." The director's vision may not be the same as ours. But are we willing to bend a little bit for others? Or even swollow our pride just a bit to do something different than what we wanted or expected? Sure, if you are diametrically opposed to the way something is being requested, have your say and tell them what you think...or quit. But nobody said anything about kissing ass or being a slave to someone. I think it was more in the ballpark of working with others and being willing to give and take.


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## chimuelo (Oct 2, 2018)

Production managers think their thumb is on the pulse of the people.
That’s good if said person has a resume or record that proves that.
If not his opinions are better used on placement of music rather than bird dogging the artists.

But if they’ve got a resume, you can maybe attach yourself, drop your protectionist attitude and become the Willow Tree that grows from its ability to bend.

Bruce Lee 1970


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## Olfirf (Oct 2, 2018)

Of course I am willing to work together and see the music I produce as part of a bigger thing. And I am not saying I want to have the final word on everything. Yet, I find it shocking to see how much people seem to willingly accept their fate and well being as the result of some producers good will. I don’t want to generalize, but I have seen often enough that people who could not do the slightest bit of a movie themselves are the ones who profit the most and give them selves the biggest credit in the end. That does not mean every producer is like that, but many are. And before I would consider bending to their will, accepting all (stupid) demands they may make, accepting to get paid little or nothing only to potentially increase their success, I would rather not write any film music. This is something, everybody has to decide for him or herself, of course! I just cannot grasp how someone would make their idea of a composer working for them their philosophy (cost us nothing, be quick and deliver the best ... oh, and we might change our mind 180 at any given time, etc)! That to me seems very wrong! Yes, there might be the most ridiculous life philosophies that might have led to individuals earning a shit load of money, like the wolf of wallstreet ... but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with that philosophy based on success. Of course, I know you have to do some compromises from time to time in order to get things going! There are however limits to that in my mind and the moment you define your own philosophy and work by ideas of people without the slightest idea, that limit is more than reached.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Oct 4, 2018)

douggibson said:


> It was a joke. See my post above.


Then the joke taught a great lesson


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## HelixK (Dec 4, 2018)

Another gem! Again, thanks for doing this and also thanks everyone who shared some great insights. I like your positive attitude, Daniel, never change 

Don't mind the naysayers, we're living in a different era and they are too cynical to adapt... it's the "old composer yelling at clouds" behavior you see all over social media.

I won't complain, that's more work for you and me


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## dciurlizza (Dec 4, 2018)

HelixK said:


> Another gem! Again, thanks for doing this and also thanks everyone who shared some great insights. I like your positive attitude, Daniel, never change
> 
> Don't mind the naysayers, we're living in a different era and they are too cynical to adapt... it's the "old composer yelling at clouds" behavior you see all over social media.
> 
> I won't complain, that's more work for you and me



Really appreciate your time and kindess, man! Totally agree - I've never seen cynicism/pessimism work as well as being positive and optimistic.


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## cola2410 (Dec 4, 2018)

Lovely conversation here and please forgive me for my 2c and being late.
Actually I think the inspiration alone could not be sufficient. Seriously, if it's not developed it's almost one-sided and self-limiting and mostly based on previous experiences that in turn could be... dated. To develop it you need to twist yourself and try to break the barriers you feel you can't break. Most people really need some external push or be put into stress to start evolving. However, everyone has its own pace so what's comfortable for some may not work for others but meeting deadlines whenever they are is about being a professional willing to make something big and great with others in collaboration.
And I totaly disagree about being slaves bent over - that's complete bs. It may happen once or twice but competition in media industry is so tough these days that non-professionals won't survive even a couple of episodes, and everyone works really hard and suffers from stress, I'm not even talking about pilot shows.
I see media as another channel for me to tunnel my musical ideas to people, and even themes I couldn't remember myself writing occassionally pop up in my head again when the context allows. So nothing is in vain and everything will eventually hit the audience regardless of its size if you are patient.
Take Max Richter, for example. The guy wrote 8 albums to date and the tracks from the first one still being used over and over again but he become famous only with animated movie Walts with Bashir that won him Golden Globe for Best Composer, in 6 years after his first album.

And yes - I support this one, there are too many "idea" people, along with all these vulnerable unicorn snowflakes and alike. People always overestimate spontaneous thoughts but it's just plain easy to drop anything on the board and not develop it until others recognize it as something really valuable. Naked ideas alwasy meet stiff competition and some those happy campers not ready to face it but the good thing is the developed ideas have significantly less competition. All in all, working hard is more valuable as just being talented and music is no exception.


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## HelixK (Dec 5, 2018)

dciurlizza said:


> Really appreciate your time and kindess, man! Totally agree - I've never seen cynicism/pessimism work as well as being positive and optimistic.



Totally agree! The company I work for just hired two new composers (assistant duties) from over 150 applications... the guys that got hired were not necessarily the most skilled of the bunch but they sure had the right attitude.

You can learn a lot of that stuff as you go, but no one can teach you social skills. I want to make sure we can be locked in a studio for months straight, working under pressure and still have a nice time. You sound like a great team player


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## dciurlizza (Dec 13, 2018)

cola2410 said:


> Lovely conversation here and please forgive me for my 2c and being late.
> Actually I think the inspiration alone could not be sufficient. Seriously, if it's not developed it's almost one-sided and self-limiting and mostly based on previous experiences that in turn could be... dated. To develop it you need to twist yourself and try to break the barriers you feel you can't break. Most people really need some external push or be put into stress to start evolving. However, everyone has its own pace so what's comfortable for some may not work for others but meeting deadlines whenever they are is about being a professional willing to make something big and great with others in collaboration.
> And I totaly disagree about being slaves bent over - that's complete bs. It may happen once or twice but competition in media industry is so tough these days that non-professionals won't survive even a couple of episodes, and everyone works really hard and suffers from stress, I'm not even talking about pilot shows.
> I see media as another channel for me to tunnel my musical ideas to people, and even themes I couldn't remember myself writing occassionally pop up in my head again when the context allows. So nothing is in vain and everything will eventually hit the audience regardless of its size if you are patient.
> ...



Love the way you're thinking and appreciate you sharing it!!


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## dciurlizza (Dec 13, 2018)

HelixK said:


> I want to make sure we can be locked in a studio for months straight, working under pressure and still have a nice time. You sound like a great team player



Man, couldn't agree more!


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