# Try before you buy



## MPortmann (Apr 8, 2018)

With all the recent discussions on new sample libraries and the many purchase options available, I’ve always wondered why more developers don’t universally have a service like this: https://www.bestservice.com/try-sound.html

Even with the limitations and midi lag, it’s been very helpful and enlightening for me to “try before you buy”. 

Hearing a library on your DAW and speakers, under your own playing ability is so helpful in making that purchase decision. 

Wondering how everyone else feels about this? How to get developers to use something similar?


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## N.Caffrey (Apr 8, 2018)

How I feel? It'd be a dream come true! I wonder if developers, apart from reasons like piracy (which in the end doesn't matter too much as their products will be eventually cracked anyway) are worried about losing $$$ on people who'd realise the product doesn't meet their expectations.


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## Leo (Apr 8, 2018)

I think for a long time about this service, Thnx to amazing try-sound I buy, (and also not) many BS products..
(Chris Hein cello, viola, The Orchestra, ERA 2..) I think it should be mandatory (in era fast internet connection) for developers!


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## robgb (Apr 8, 2018)

Well, I tried it and they need a much better system than this. It's nice to be able to hear the sounds (I tried @Chris Hein solo violin—which sounds terrific), but the latency of the service is so bad that it's really pretty useless.


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## kimarnesen (Apr 8, 2018)

VSL has such a service as well, but you have to pay for it, which is ridiculous.


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## J-M (Apr 8, 2018)

I'd love to see something like this with every developer. I'm a damn student, I can't afford to make bad buying decisions.


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## pettinhouse (Apr 8, 2018)

I do it for my guitars. Some of them have try before you buy. I also have the download page with free version of my guitars. They don't have GUI or special patches, less samples but anyway usebale and not demo but full version.

All you need is kontakt

Andrea


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## procreative (Apr 8, 2018)

Because if they did, they would probably sell less! 

Pity other Devs dont do what Output do, they offer a 14 day return "*If you don't love it, return it.*"


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## d.healey (Apr 8, 2018)

This kind of setup is something big devs should have I think but for smaller devs it's not practical and would be expensive.


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## kimarnesen (Apr 8, 2018)

procreative said:


> Because if they did, they would probably sell less!
> 
> Pity other Devs dont do what Output do, they offer a 14 day return "*If you don't love it, return it.*"



They will only do it if we, the users, don't buy until we can try.


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## shangsean (Apr 8, 2018)

N.Caffrey said:


> How I feel? It'd be a dream come true! I wonder if developers, apart from reasons like piracy (which in the end doesn't matter too much as their products will be eventually cracked anyway) are worried about losing $$$ on people who'd realise the product doesn't meet their expectations.



I think people realizing they don't need something after playing with it would be a concern. Once that new toy feeling has worn off, spending $500 on a library is not quite so enticing. I like the way Soundiron does their Elements and Micro versions. It's a good way to try things out without too much risk. Then if you decide you don't need the full version you still have a functional product.


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## Jay Panikkar (Apr 8, 2018)

All major developers should have a service like this. This lets you can see the exact contents being offered and get an overall idea about the quality of the samples.


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## MPortmann (Apr 8, 2018)

N.Caffrey said:


> How I feel? It'd be a dream come true! I wonder if developers, apart from reasons like piracy (which in the end doesn't matter too much as their products will be eventually cracked anyway) are worried about losing $$$ on people who'd realise the product doesn't meet their expectations





kimarnesen said:


> They will only do it if we, the users, don't buy until we can try.



Count me in.


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## MPortmann (Apr 8, 2018)

d.healey said:


> This kind of setup is something big devs should have I think but for smaller devs it's not practical and would be expensive.



Good point. Smaller developers libraries sometimes have a bit lower price point which helps the risk factor and feels good to support them.


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## Lee Blaske (Apr 8, 2018)

I'm guessing that if all developers had a "try before you buy" option, the size of the sample library business and the number of companies would shrink dramatically. It's definitely not how the market has been constructed. So many libraries have been put out with special pre-order prices before anyone outside of developers have been able to play the libraries. This is keeping a lot of people employed, making these products.

It's kind of like the way the record industry used to work, back when selling records was profitable. I've got tons of vinyl and CDs I've listened to only once, discovering I didn't particularly care for the music (all bought before it was easy to preview music).


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 8, 2018)

Demos should be required by law. It should be no problem for any developer to put together reduced demo sample sets for the sole purpose of demoing, like Pettinhouse does it. Just make it too little to make actual music with it, but enough to get an idea for the sound, scripting and workflow.


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## williemyers (Apr 8, 2018)

about 15 years ago, I was very interested in an at-the-time brand new (west coast, United States) string library. I was even able to get one of the dev.s to speak on the phone with me at length. he was very generous with his time and we talked his library up one side and down the other. I listened intently to all of their demos and - based on those demos - felt I was on firm ground, making the almost $2k purchase. 
It took me about 30 minutes to realize that I'd made an almost $2k mistake.....
Thing was, I didn't factor in that the demos that the company had released had been produced using some very high-end (and pricey) gear that I was not likely to have access to. 
It makes sense, I guess, that a dev. would try and present their product in the best light. But I learned a couple of things from the experience; (1.) try and find out as much as you can about a company's demos *before* basing a purchase on them. if they don't want to tell you what kind of verb or processing was used on a particular demo, you *may* not be able to reproduce that sound that you love so much in your environment (2.) try, if at all possible, to do business with a dev that offers some kind of re-sale plan. It's just a killer to have a $2k library parked on a drive, taking up space...unused...because it never should have been purchased in the first place...


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## Sid Francis (Apr 8, 2018)

When I mentioned this fact some years ago that we all are forced to buy pricey products without being allowed to test drive them, people were throwing stones at me...funny how long it takes until you come to the same conclusion. My drives are full of unused libs for which I sometimes did not even need 30 minutes to know that they are useless for me. Latest example being a solo/FC string lib by a very respected developer which neither sound- nor playability wise was what I expected ALTOUGH there was a long walkthrough. 200$ burned and after the decline of the cd industry I cannot afford 200$ too easily. Means next purchase will come in 6-12 months :-(


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## williemyers (Apr 8, 2018)

Sid Francis said:


> When I mentioned this fact some years ago that we all are forced to buy pricey products without being allowed to test drive them, people were throwing stones at me...funny how long it takes until you come to the same conclusion. My drives are full of unused libs for which I sometimes did not even need 30 minutes to know that they are useless for me. Latest example being a solo/FC string lib by a very respected developer which neither sound- nor playability wise was what I expected ALTOUGH there was a long walkthrough. 200$ burned and after the decline of the cd industry I cannot afford 200$ too easily. Means next purchase will come in 6-12 months :-(



hmm...I'm pretty sure we're talking the same developer....


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## Phillip (Apr 9, 2018)

Developing such try before buy service would really prove that the developer cares about their customers.


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## N.Caffrey (Apr 9, 2018)

If I remember correctly, Spitfire many years ago gave a demo of Sable 1, just an octave of celli and violins.


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## MPortmann (Apr 9, 2018)

Sid Francis said:


> When I mentioned this fact some years ago that we all are forced to buy pricey products without being allowed to test drive them, people were throwing stones at me...funny how long it takes until you come to the same conclusion. My drives are full of unused libs for which I sometimes did not even need 30 minutes to know that they are useless for me. Latest example being a solo/FC string lib by a very respected developer which neither sound- nor playability wise was what I expected ALTOUGH there was a long walkthrough. 200$ burned and after the decline of the cd industry I cannot afford 200$ too easily. Means next purchase will come in 6-12 months :-(



Thanks for bringing up that point Sid, it’s a valid one today. Agree on all points. More developers now, this rapid pace of library releases is hard to keep up. While it’s great to have so many library choices, technological innovations and some game changers along the way, the music industry is not flowing the same at all. Making it difficult to now buy on a whim or the impulsive desire of getting the intro price before it goes away. I have so many unused libraries too. 

Thinking back on my West LA Music days at the beginning of my career. They’d let me sit there for hours on headphones playing through libraries (even when you could download some and order direct for better price). You’re right, you know within 30min if it’s going to work for you or not.


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## MPortmann (Apr 9, 2018)

Phillip said:


> Developing such try before buy service would really prove that the developer cares about their customers.



Agreed


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## robgb (Apr 9, 2018)

Generally speaking, the business model won't allow for a try before you buy. Too many people would pass on the library. It makes more sense to use hype, anticipation and early bird pricing (Spitfire at al) than to throw back the curtain.


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## Phillip (Apr 9, 2018)

The profits may decrease, but competition will force developers to adopt try before buy model in order to retain viable. I believe it will start will smaller companies and once they will increase their market share because of a customer oriented business model, major developers will follow. It is just a matter of time. We, customers have a great opportunity to voice our wishes on this forum. I see it as a grass root movement for change in a current business model.


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## robgb (Apr 9, 2018)

Phillip said:


> The profits may decrease, but competition will force developers to adopt try before buy model in order to retain viable. I believe it will start will smaller companies and once they will increase their market share because of a customer oriented business model, major developers will follow. It is just a matter of time. We, customers have a great opportunity to voice our wishes on this forum. I see it as a grass root movement for change in a current business model.


Good luck. There are too many sycophants on this forum for that to work. Just look at what happened last week over HZ strings.


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## Phillip (Apr 9, 2018)

Unfortunately you may be right. I still hope that once the community is larger, it will become more influential. BTW, what did you mean by "sycophants"?


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## Loïc D (Apr 9, 2018)

Technically speaking, I think that with the help of virtualization & cloud based services, it could be possible to let users play for a while with a library remotely (with beeps/mute/bit reduction/etc. to prevent from recording the stream).

Companies don't do it probably because of :
- potential lack of business in case of poor quality or inadequacy
- this would induce costs for the company that had to be partially charged to customers (price increase)
- technical skills in this domain
- competitors don't do it

That said, given the pace of new products/versions in a very competitive market, I'm dreaming sometimes that companies would be open to beta-testing (opening tests to registered users & reward them with voucher on bug notice). It doesn't require to be a big company and by watermarking, it would be easy to limit piracy...

Oh wait, we are the beta-testers...


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## tehreal (Apr 9, 2018)

Three years ago, Steam (the game distribution company) instituted a refund policy. You could get a refund no questions asked within 2 hours of usage or two weeks of purchase, whichever came first. Before that they didn't allow any type of refund (even if you hadn't downloaded it yet).

Despite reportedly receiving tens of thousands of refund requests per day, they've kept the refund policy in place, presumably because it has led to larger profits overall. I am much less hesitant to fork over my dough knowing I can get a refund if I end up hating the product (I end up enjoying the vast majority of products). They don't even charge a fee for refunds even though the download size of these games are often over 50 GB.

I wonder if sample companies are actually missing out on more profit overall by not instituting something similar.


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## d.healey (Apr 9, 2018)

tehreal said:


> I wonder if sample companies are actually missing out on more profit overall by not instituting something similar.


I assume when you get a refund from Steam the game is no longer playable?


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## tehreal (Apr 9, 2018)

d.healey said:


> I assume when you get a refund from Steam the game is no longer playable?



Correct (provided the game developer didn't do something idiotic that would allow the game to run without checking for authorization).


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## lpuser (Apr 9, 2018)

I´d like to add that the situation is even more frustrating, when hardly any "nacked" demos exist. Some companies do way too much showing-off, disguising the quality of what they sell by adding tons of things which are not included. This gives a completely false impression, because nobody can say which sounds are where from.

Just like Sid wrote above, it is kinda frustrating to see how many unused libraries and virtual instruments reside in my folder, simply because I "thought" they would be helpful, but in fact are not.


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 9, 2018)

In a world where everyone does whatever just to get instant attention, self-respect goes a long way.

I don't think the developers should be working to make "try-before-you-buy" products. There are too many amateurs and wannabes with no money trying to flood the game. Keep the libraries professional and charge full price unless there is a small annual sale.

Consumers have to learn how to save their money to buy what they want instead of window shopping and asking for "cheap, cheap, cheap" and "free, free, free" all of the time. 

The real musicians respect themselves and work hard to earn money to use the products they buy. They learn to value what they purchase and find creative ways to integrate each sample library into their workflow instead of whining "this doesn't make a hit song after I push one button so it sucks!"

Too much immaturity and entitlement out here. Hopefully developers will stay the course and keep their software only int the reach of professionals with money who truly value the products.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 9, 2018)

Without a doubt, a "try before you buy" service NEEDS to be the industry standard. If developers choose not to offer such a service, then they need to do what EastWest has done with the Cloud subscription. 

At the end of the day, we just need a better way to experience the libraries. Demos and walkthroughs don't completely cut it.


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## aelwyn (Apr 9, 2018)

I expect we'll see more developers simply going the subscription route. EastWest's doing it, obviously. It's also worked out well for Adobe... different industry, but the same principle applies.

A subscription service might be a good means of splitting the difference: it's not buying a full library without using it first, but it's not exactly a "try before you buy" scenario either. I remember the wailing and gnashing of teeth that ensued after Adobe went subscription, but I never minded it... as long as the products available in the subscription are actively being improved and new offerings added, I don't mind paying to stay on top of it.

If the price is right, at least. (Though it'll quickly get painful having to maintain subscriptions to 10 different companies for sample libraries.)


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## bozmillar (Apr 9, 2018)

I honestly think it's more of a cost thing than anything else. Big sample libraries require lots of bandwith. If there was a try before buy option, then number of downloads of each library would increase 20x overnight, and I don't think sales would change that much. Some people would not buy because they tried it, and others would buy because they were able to try it.

If libraries weren't a bazillion GB to download, I think you'd see more of it.


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## d.healey (Apr 9, 2018)

tehreal said:


> Correct (provided the game developer didn't do something idiotic that would allow the game to run without checking for authorization).


Well without a platform like steam for sample library developers I don't think a similar solution would be possible.


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## lpuser (Apr 9, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> I don't think the developers should be working to make "try-before-you-buy" products. There are too many amateurs and wannabes with no money trying to flood the game. Keep the libraries professional and charge full price unless there is a small annual sale.



Certainly you would be surprised how many "wannabes" are responsible for the success of some developers, because it is not uncommon that pros are receiving free NFR copies - and certainly their percentage does not match the number of overall sales.

And honestly, I do not understand what "wannabe" has to do with the fair request to get to know what you are buying before you buy? I mean, would you buy a car without trying? Or mixing desk? Or ... most likely not.
Sorry, I just don´t get it.


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## Andrew Aversa (Apr 9, 2018)

We tried a refund policy for a little while, but our observation was that the small number of people who asked for refunds almost universally did not understand the product. They would try it and within a very short time ask for a refund. Not one request was related to technical issues like performance, bugs, or sample quality. Most of us can agree that with any deep sample library, you do have to take a bit of time to learn how to use it. But - and again this was just our experience - having the refund option there was seemingly discouraging people from taking that extra time if they didn't get it right away.

On the other hand, when people have reached out to us because they don't understand how to get a particular sound, we're always happy to help (sometimes pointing to resources like videos, MIDI, project files) and the result is almost universally satisfying for both of us. 

It's rare for customers to tell us they actually cannot use a product, or they really didn't understand what they were buying. In these cases, we do issue refunds anyway, or allow a license transfer.

As for a 'try before buy' policy, agreed 100% that it's a great idea and customer-friendly. For small developers it _does_ still take resources to put something like that together. Creating a cut-down version is not necessarily a simple task. You have to figure out how and what content to cut without making the library seem crippled. Do you reduce dynamics, RR, and articulations? The demo version might seem unrealistic compared to the full version. Do you reduce playable range? Then you can't get a sense for what it sounds like in different registers... etc. What about UI and scripting? You might have to adjust those too, which takes more time and money.

Once you do have a demo version prepared you have to set up a page and delivery system, you have to handle support for demo users, etc. It's not impossible but for a very small company it IS a hassle. My preferred approach has been to create tailored _*free *_versions of certain libraries that deliver an entirely usable result on their own, rather than "demo" versions. For example, our Cinematic Synthetic Drums (little brother of Juggernaut) or Super Audio Boy (created from Super Audio Cart).


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## dpasdernick (Apr 9, 2018)

Stop buying “not for resale” software and the developers will take the hint.


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## tehreal (Apr 9, 2018)

Just thought of this. Another thing that bothers me is when developers put out demos for products that include articulations AND phrases and then don't specify that certain demos are created mostly with the phrases. You don't really find that out until you download the product.


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## Syneast (Apr 9, 2018)

Try before you buy would force developers to focus on other things to sell libraries, like playability and instant gratification, rather than just producing good sounding demos. I'm guessing the former is much more difficult to do, which is why we don't see a lot of try before you buy.

Libraries that benefit from try before you buy would be the libraries that push playability as a big selling point, like Caspian, Adventure Brass/Strings, Chris Hein and perhaps VSL.

Also, try before you buy puts a lot of pressure on the developers to put out essentially bug free products. You don't see the bugs in audio demos, but when you get to play with the patches yourself, you do.

I'd love to push for more try before you buy, but the only way to do that is to only buy libraries that I can try before buying, and that limits my options considerably.


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## X-Bassist (Apr 9, 2018)

tehreal said:


> Just thought of this. Another thing that bothers me is when developers put out demos for products that include articulations AND phrases and then don't specify that certain demos are created mostly with the phrases. You don't really find that out until you download the product.



This is why seeing a walkthrough video or review with the actual instrument is important before purchasing. Even if it's not phrases, the demo can be made to avoid the shortcomings of the instrument, while a realtime playthrough of the instrument or a good review many times reveals them. The only exception I've found is 8Dio, who seem to relish doing a walkthrough video, then play back midi sequences instead of playing the instrument live, which in my view defeats the purpose. If I have to do infinite tweaking to get it to sound decent in a mix, then it's not an option for films with deadlines, which is all of them for me. When purchasing 8Dio Strings I found a big limitation can be their programming (which is rough in many places - velocities that stick out or tunings that are out) even though they can get them to work with some serious midi surgury. Live and learn.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 9, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> I'm guessing that if all developers had a "try before you buy" option, the size of the sample library business and the number of companies would shrink dramatically. It's definitely not how the market has been constructed. So many libraries have been put out with special pre-order prices before anyone outside of developers have been able to play the libraries. This is keeping a lot of people employed, making these products.





robgb said:


> Generally speaking, the business model won't allow for a try before you buy. Too many people would pass on the library. It makes more sense to use hype, anticipation and early bird pricing (Spitfire at al) than to throw back the curtain.


Lee and Rob are right - a TBYB business model wouldn't work for most sample library companies, at least not at the current pricing levels, since fewer libraries would get sold. I'm sure many may believe that TBYB would result in _more_ libraries being sold, but ... no.  Even in this thread, the examples given are all about instances where someone would have discovered through TBYB that they should _not_ have purchased a library. Why would a company do something that gets fewer sales?

Don't get me wrong, I don't want customers to get burned. Realitone has a 30 day full refund policy, and we truly want zero unhappy customers. The difference between this and TBYB is that we get our money upfront, as opposed to hoping they'll pay me later. (For those of us familiar with the music business, I don't need to explain the importance of that, do I?  )

Aside from _"money upfront"_ versus _"hope to get paid later,"_ another downside to TBYB is that the demo period may be all the customer needs to finish a gig. I'll bet my sales numbers for RealiBanjo (our best seller) would plummet if someone could use it free for a week, since a lot of sales are to people who only need it for one particular gig. Even the people who buy it only for the dancing hillbilly animation will get over it pretty quickly and decide they don't _really_ need it permanently on their hard drive. Losing those sales would be a big deal.

Another downside is that a large percentage of sales are to people who will never actually use a library. Impulse buyers who are wowed by a launch or sale and think, _"Wow, that will be so cool to have!"_, but don't necessarily need it right now. I've done that myself many times. I have libraries sitting on my hard drive that I've never played, and some that I haven't even downloaded yet. As developers, these impulse sales are something we count on, but TBYB gives impulse buyers an alternative path, so it would result in fewer overall sales.

Ultimately, I'm running a business, and in an online business, you want to give a potential customer as few obstacles as possible before clicking the Buy button. If I've got a customer with his mouse hovering over the Buy button, I don't want to tell him, _"Wait, don't click yet! You might not actually like this library, so why not try it out first for free!"_


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## tehreal (Apr 9, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> Realitone has a 30 day full refund policy, and we truly want zero unhappy customers.



Couldn't ask for more than that. Thanks for having that policy.


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## Przemek K. (Apr 9, 2018)

Try Sound from Bestservice is actually quite a fine solution. Would have wished more devs would use this. But I'd also happy with a limited demoversion, with only one octave and maybe 2-3 articulations for example.


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## thevisi0nary (Apr 9, 2018)

Virtually every other market in the world (or at least the US) offers a return service. People should absolutely know what they are buying and have a hands on experience. 

It’s absurd that a person should have to commit to an $800 library based on audio demos alone.


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## Przemek K. (Apr 9, 2018)

thevisi0nary said:


> It’s absurd that a person should have to commit to an $800 library based on audio demos alone.



Biting the bullet and be disappointed afterwards, if a given library doesn't fit your lets say workflow and what not, is hard. Especially if its a library on the more expensive side.
So, yes, a return policy sure would be welcome. Fortunately some devs allow this already including reselling as well.


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## Sid Francis (Apr 9, 2018)

Mike: At the price of your libraries YOU should be the last to rethink your business model. Your are one of the fairest. And you should buy the banjo at the current price if you would need it ever once in your life  But to stay with my example: after my 3rd solo string library where none of those does what I am looking for I will not buy a fourth one. And that does not mean "less sales", that means "no sale at all" . And I am only asking for very simple things, not complaining about the lack of the 18th articulation or talking about semitone sampling or RRs... I just want playable, stereo legato instruments that can make my mother cry when I play her favorite tune. No, she is not crying easily, not after each and every bread and butter violin. But she is ready and willing to if the tune is good enough and able to transport emotion.Now take the given products and tell me which to choose? Violin? okay...: Joshua Bell or virharmonic, one of those. Now Viola.. VIOLA ??? no violas for that out there, but no one seems to like violas anyway .-) I LOVE them and start every tune with...the violas. Cello? Okay, I even got several that can deliver. But now the deal: all three in ONE package so that the instruments match soundwise? In good convincing emotional quality? Never! The current packages all have their strenghts and their niche but each and every one has a certain "why the heck did they decide to do it THIS way?" for me. And I do not even dare to name these flaws because I fear the next shitstorm of the unevitable "knowbetters" Is this an existing word? Sounds nice.
tehreal: No I did not have my evening coffee yet. But i will drink it now and hope that you all ignore my post....
And what has this all to do with the topic? Unless I can in ANY way try the product I will not buy any more just based on hope and desperation.


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## X-Bassist (Apr 9, 2018)

Sid Francis said:


> Mike: At the price of your libraries YOU should be the last to rethink your business model. Your are one of the fairest. And you should buy the banjo at the current price if you would need it ever once in your life  But to stay with my example: after my 3rd solo string library where none of those does what I am looking for I will not buy a fourth one. And that does not mean "less sales", that means "no sale at all" . And I am only asking for very simple things, not complaining about the lack of the 18th articulation or talking about semitone sampling or RRs... I just want playable, stereo legato instruments that can make my mother cry when I play her favorite tune. No, she is not crying easily, not after each and every bread and butter violin. But she is ready and willing to if the tune is good enough and able to transport emotion.Now take the given products and tell me which to choose? Violin? okay...: Joshua Bell or virharmonic, one of those. Now Viola.. VIOLA ??? no violas for that out there, but no one seems to like violas anyway .-) I LOVE them and start every tune with...the violas. Cello? Okay, I even got several that can deliver. But now the deal: all three in ONE package so that the instruments match soundwise? In good convincing emotional quality? Never! The current packages all have their strenghts and their niche but each and every one has a certain "why the heck did they decide to do it THIS way?" for me. And I do not even dare to name these flaws because I fear the next shitstorm of the unevitable "knowbetters" Is this an existing word? Sounds nice.
> tehreal: No I did not have my evening coffee yet. But i will drink it now and hope that you all ignore my post....
> And what has this all to do with the topic? Unless I can in ANY way try the product I will not buy any more just based on hope and desperation.



Chris Hein makes my mother cry, but I do have some keyswitches to master. Bohemien is getting close but still has glitches for me. With the new instruments he’s added, CH solo strings complete has become my go to for making mi momma cry... or just an emotional, well balanced string solo that sounds good out of the box. Even the basses are clear and full bodied, very useful. 

I can understand wanting demos. I have to see a review or walkthrough myself, then if I can use it for something coming up, I make the leap. Unless they have a crazy intro price, like $600.... sometimes I’m pleasantly surprised, like the example above. But it’s good to know the other side of things.


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## robgb (Apr 9, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> Realitone has a 30 day full refund policy, and we truly want zero unhappy customers.


See, THIS is the way all developers should be operating. I bought Realivox Ladies knowing the refund policy would be in effect. Fortunately, it's such a great library that I had no reason to return it. I wish other developers had the same confidence in their products...


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## Leo (Apr 9, 2018)

Mike, when you want test for example Cubase 559EUR, or even Nuendo for 1879EUR! you have 30 days for try with full access with _"hope to get paid later".._
People can record or compose a lot in that time. But for Steinberg (or even Yamaha) it is fair. 
EastWest with subscription model for $24.99/month 10000+ virtual instruments $15000 of value is also for EW people fair. 
Service Try-Sound from bestservice.de is 30min free and you can booking all day long..
So why so big company, with own new engine doing nothing for their costumers? I mean Spitfire, it will only live forever from they fan-boys?! Oh common, some of us have grown up.
Yes I will confess, EastWest safe me lot of my money, just simple I don't like their products, unfortunately I have 3 of them that I bought before they did subscription model...
but on the other hand I buy Chris Hein Cello because in direct comparison sounded to me better like Emotional cello (also from BS). 
When I decided to buy an upgrade from Cubase 9 Pro to - 9.5 I also tested and choice to buying paid upgrade.. 
*Try product should always be the right of buyer! *And I hope that the EU's soon enact this with LAW. With the look of the user we have a big disadvantage, and almost no rights.


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## Leo (Apr 9, 2018)

We will be a model for others


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## TimCox (Apr 9, 2018)

procreative said:


> Pity other Devs dont do what Output do, they offer a 14 day return "*If you don't love it, return it.*"



I imagine the sheer amount of producers that would pull a "14 day rental" on this would be pretty high. It's like the old guitar center rental trick studio guys used to do.


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## Leo (Apr 9, 2018)

pettinhouse said:


> I do it for my guitars. Some of them have try before you buy. I also have the download page with free version of my guitars. They don't have GUI or special patches, less samples but anyway usebale and not demo but full version.
> 
> All you need is kontakt
> 
> Andrea


And yes, thnx for yours free version I brought before Christmas all yours guitars, and sounded great, thank you again Andrea!


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## Mike Greene (Apr 9, 2018)

Sid Francis said:


> But to stay with my example: after my 3rd solo string library where none of those does what I am looking for I will not buy a fourth one. And that does not mean "less sales", that means "no sale at all".


To be clear, I'm not denying that you have a legitimate point, because you certainly do! It definitely sucks when people buy stuff and then realize it isn't what they hoped. I don't blame anyone for being reluctant to buy unless they can be assured the product really is what they think it is.

I'm just saying that from a developer's standpoint, the motivation is to make money, so even though customers may wish for it, most are not going to introduce something like TBYB, because in the long run, it will mean fewer sales.

Plus, of course, very few developers have the ability to implement TBYB. In my own case, even if I wanted to, it's way beyond my skill level.


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## Jay Panikkar (Apr 9, 2018)

Leo said:


> EastWest with subscription model for $24.99/month 10000+ virtual instruments $15000 of value is also for EW people fair.



Taking everything into account, EastWest seems to have come up with the best solution thus far. Pay a small fee to access everything for a limited period of time. It won't be easy for other developers to do this, though. They'll need to get out of Kontakt, develop their own sampler and work with some form of iLok system.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 9, 2018)

Leo said:


> Mike, when you want test for example Cubase 559EUR, or even Nuendo for 1879EUR! you have 30 days for try with full access with _"hope to get paid later".._
> People can record or compose a lot in that time. But for Steinberg (or even Yamaha) it is fair.


That's a completely different situation. With a sequencer or DAW, a company wants you to start trying it because the more you use it, the more you'll want it. People _need_ a sequencer that they'll use every day, as opposed to a sample library, which is more likely to be a case of _"On second thought, this library doesn't really do much that my other stuff already does."_



Leo said:


> EastWest with subscription model for $24.99/month 10000+ virtual instruments $15000 of value is also for EW people fair.


Also a very different situation. East West doesn't make much new stuff anymore, and has already had so many blow-out sales that new sales are dwindling, so their subscription model is mostly just another revenue stream, as opposed to being a method to get people to buy expensive libraries. $25/month works out to around $300/year, so at that rate, they're _already_ making as much money as if they were selling you the libraries.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 9, 2018)

TimCox said:


> I imagine the sheer amount of producers that would pull a "14 day rental" on this would be pretty high. It's like the old guitar center rental trick studio guys used to do.


I was worried about that when we implemented our return policy a few years ago, but thankfully, it doesn't seem to happen. We do get returns, of course, but (almost) all seem very legitimate.

I think people want to be honest. Maybe if we were faceless corporations, there might be more abuse, but most people know we're just small operations trying to do the best we can, so people are nice. (Knock on wood!)


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## TimCox (Apr 9, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> I was worried about that when we implemented our return policy a few years ago, but thankfully, it doesn't seem to happen. We do get returns, of course, but (almost) all seem very legitimate. I think people want to be honest.



That's fantastic to hear! It's always nice to have your faith in humanity restored


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## germancomponist (Apr 9, 2018)

We need "sample-library-test-driver-stations", as it was with guitars and any other hardware in the past in any music instruments store.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 9, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> As developers, these impulse sales are something we count on, but TBYB gives impulse buyers an alternative path, so it would result in fewer overall sales.
> 
> Ultimately, I'm running a business, and in an online business, you want to give a potential customer as few obstacles as possible before clicking the Buy button. If I've got a customer with his mouse hovering over the Buy button, I don't want to tell him, _"Wait, don't click yet! You might not actually like this library, so why not try it out first for free!"_



That's kinda screwed up. If a developer's product is as good as they say it is, then they shouldn't have anything to worry about. A TBYB option would allow a potential buyer to see how well the library stands on its own two feet, despite all the embellished, and over-hyped marketing that targets buyer impulse.

I sell guitars locally from time to time, and letting a potential buyer actually try out the instrument before commiting to buy it offers both them and myself peace of mind. The buyer knows EXACTLY what they're getting, and I can feel at ease knowing that they actually liked the guitar enough to buy it. I understand that it doesn't cost me any resources to do that, but the concept is the same. It seems like a developer could take a lot more pride in their products knowing that when someone buys their library, it was because they truly enjoyed it, and not because they fell for the polished demos, and BS marketing. Then again, some customers are never happy.

I do commend you for offering a return policy though. Like you said, you don't want a customer feeling burned. That kind of customer service is light years ahead of most of your competition's approach.

With all that said, I don't want developers getting burned either. There's gotta be some middle ground somewhere though, and right now, it seems very one-sided for the most part, especially since license transfers are hardly ever allowed, return policies rarely exist, and TBYB options are like a unicorn.


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## procreative (Apr 9, 2018)

The issue stems from the marketing. Too many developers tout "Next Gen" sampling, "Groundbreaking Scripting" etc.

Yes they do walkthroughs, but they conveniently avoid the aspects that might cause concern. Not accusing but is it a coincidence none of the Legatos were featured in the HZS walkthrough (they must have known of issues surely).

Yes some of the reviewers do nice walkthroughs, but I don't totally trust them to be 100% honest or critical as they want to keep in the foodchain.

We really are in the era of ever diminishing gains, where some of the extra features are really OTT, like 9-10 Mic Positions etc. So I understand devs needing to peak interest, but some of the Walkthroughs are a bit misleading.

I dont think Try Before You Buy is needed, but a Return Policy and a more robust way to retrieve a license once returned to cripple the library (iLok works this way doesn't it?).

I mean now we have Native Access, surely licenses can be removed?


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## Mike Fox (Apr 9, 2018)

procreative said:


> The issue stems from the marketing. Too many developers tout "Next Gen" sampling, "Groundbreaking Scripting" etc.



Don't forget, "This will take your compositions to the next level!".


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## Andrew Aversa (Apr 9, 2018)

> I dont think Try Before You Buy is needed, but a Return Policy and a more robust way to retrieve a license once returned to cripple the library (iLok works this way doesn't it?).



For Kontakt Player libraries you can deactivate a serial, however I don't think there is anything to prevent someone from just activating it again. Also, the majority of libraries are not Kontakt Player...


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## bigcat1969 (Apr 9, 2018)

A little late to the thread. I think Steam did the refund policy under government pressure and not voluntarily. I don't think they can change it without legal problems. I don't think they wanted to do it.

The VSCO2 orchestra freebies were kind of try before you buy. I think the free was about 10% of the full content. It might have hurt Sam's sales somewhat as his Kontakt instruments sound much better than mine as he and his team are much better at programming, editing for xfading and all those things. Of course the Kontakt player versions are way better than the Maize VST or SFZ versions which are all many people have ever heard.


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## Quasar (Apr 9, 2018)

I think that software rights for the end user are, in general, in a dismal, oppressive state. But being unable to "try before you buy" is the least of it, if it's even a problem at all.

Subscriptions, dongles, 3rd party drivers, the need to take the target machine online and the absence of resale rights are all of far greater concern.

If we have the right to resell a library we have purchased, then the consequences of buying before trying could mostly be mitigated anyway. But even if not, if one does one's due diligence with honest, proper walkthoughs, reviews, etc., one needn't be terribly surprised by the character of a VI/library after purchase. 

An _honest_ demo shows at least what a library _can_ do in proper hands. If I then buy it and can't do that, then the onus is on me to get better, not on the software. Of course if a demo is fraudulent or misrepresentative, that's a whole other issue...


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## rrichard63 (Apr 9, 2018)

Some VI libraries lend themselves to trial versions and some don't. For example, Rigid Audio recently offered a subset of Hypernode for free, and it gave me a very good understanding of the product (which I bought). But the purpose and design of that library lends itself to the demo version approach. Yet Another String Section kinds of libraries do not, for reasons several others have already described (do you limit range? instruments? articulations? RRs?). For these products, I think Mike's offer of a refund is a very good approach.

The latency inherent in Best Service's demos would drive me crazy. I haven't even tried them.


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## tehreal (Apr 10, 2018)

bigcat1969 said:


> A little late to the thread. I think Steam did the refund policy under government pressure and not voluntarily. I don't think they can change it without legal problems. I don't think they wanted to do it.



This was only the Australian government I believe and it no doubt pushed them into allowing refunds. They could have only offered refunds to Australian customers (about 1% of their customer base) or gotten out of Australia altogether but they chose to offer it to all their customers.


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## bigcat1969 (Apr 10, 2018)

Thanks for that clarification tehreal.


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## X-Bassist (Apr 10, 2018)

bigcat1969 said:


> A little late to the thread. I think Steam did the refund policy under government pressure and not voluntarily. I don't think they can change it without legal problems. I don't think they wanted to do it.
> 
> The VSCO2 orchestra freebies were kind of try before you buy. I think the free was about 10% of the full content. It might have hurt Sam's sales somewhat as his Kontakt instruments sound much better than mine as he and his team are much better at programming, editing for xfading and all those things. Of course the Kontakt player versions are way better than the Maize VST or SFZ versions which are all many people have ever heard.



I’m not sure if you mean Steam, the gaming platform, or Steam, the Spectrasonics engine, but I’ve never heard either offering refunds.  It does allow those purchasing from feeling they might get burned, even if they decide to keep the library and never use it. Unfortuantely not every company feels as confident in their products. Also some worry about those who would take advantage, since there is no real way to gaurentee the user won’t continue to use the library, especially with a non player library. But as Mike has mentioned, few seem to ask for the refund.


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## bigcat1969 (Apr 10, 2018)

Of course Blue and The Ladies are so lovely you would have to be nuts to ask for a refund! There are some instruments I've bought I would love to refund, but Mike's stuff never. And i'm not just saying that because he puts up with my nonsense and advertising on this forum.


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## Jay Panikkar (Apr 10, 2018)

Sample libraries (and plugins!) are not big boxed products that take up large amounts of physical space carefully stored in some big refrigerated warehouse. They're stored digitally—the stock is infinite. Storing, maintaining and distributing gigabytes of data is dirt cheap in the present day. Once a developer recoups the cost of production, the margins are ridiculous. There is little reason for sample libraries to be priced as high as they are.

The wider problem here is that many people who consume these kind of products are not very technologically savvy. There are people here who are struggle to copy two folders correctly. Because they don't understand how any of this works, they leave themselves open to easy exploitation by big developers.


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## GrammarNazi (Apr 10, 2018)

Jay Panikkar said:


> Storing, maintaining and distributing gigabytes of data is dirt cheap in the present day. Once a developer recoups the cost of production, the margins are ridiculous.



"Storing, maintaining, and distributing gigabytes of data is dirt cheap in the present day. Once a developer recoups the cost of production, the margins are ridiculous."



Jay Panikkar said:


> The wider problem here is that many people who consume these kind of products are not very technologically savvy. There are people here who are struggle to copy two folders correctly. Because they don't understand how any of this works, they leave themselves open to easy exploitation by big developers.



"The wider problem here, is that many people who consume these kind of products are not very technologically savvy. There are people here who struggle to copy two folders correctly. They don't understand how any of this works. They leave themselves open to easy exploitation by big developers."


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## axb312 (Apr 11, 2018)

Jay Panikkar said:


> Sample libraries (and plugins!) are not big boxed products that take up large amounts of physical space carefully stored in some big refrigerated warehouse. They're stored digitally—the stock is infinite. Storing, maintaining and distributing gigabytes of data is dirt cheap in the present day. Once a developer recoups the cost of production, the margins are ridiculous. There is little reason for sample libraries to be priced as high as they are.
> 
> The wider problem here is that many people who consume these kind of products are not very technologically savvy. There are people here who are struggle to copy two folders correctly. Because they don't understand how any of this works, they leave themselves open to easy exploitation by big developers.



Do we have an estimate of how much recording and programming a library costs nowadays? I think it'd be fair to put the numbers out....

But yes, I do believe, as I have stated earlier on this forum that most libraries are prohibitively priced. Why not lower the costs for entry, reduce piracy and sell in volume rather than trying to recover costs at a higher price level with fewer sales?

Also, yes, I'd love to see try before you buy options or at least all developers allowing license transfers. We trust developers with our money on the basis of a few demos and reviews. It'd be good if that trust was reciprocated by allowing license transfers.


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## JEPA (Apr 11, 2018)

i have an idea, so that it would be fair for small and big developers + consumer:

Price level: all libraries *over* ~$399 - $499 *MUST* demo files (if a developer is about to charge a half 1k or over 1k, he must be in the position to deliver demo v.i.)
*Noise, noise, noise* in the demo file. Last East&West contest for the Choir library had a noise about ~ 6kHz to 10kHz on the library, very ugly.. I could test the choirs, they didn't convince me, i passed. This would be easy to do, a noise batch on all files
or 50% entrance discount (limited time) if you buy blind (no demos) the library over half $1k


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## jcrosby (Apr 11, 2018)

At the very allow people upload a MIDI file and let people listen to the results... (Even if not in real time but with emailed links...) IMO the lack of this kind of feature makes me much more likely to refrain from buying a sample library than from buying one...

From a purely practical standpoint... There aren't a lot of big purchases you make in life without being able to demo them in some way... And even the sh!t you can't demo at home at least lets you return the item... (E.g. a TV, hifi system, monitors etc...)


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## axb312 (Apr 11, 2018)

jcrosby said:


> At the very allow people upload a MIDI file and let people listen to the results... (Even if not in real time but with emailed links...) IMO the lack of this kind of feature makes me much more likely to refrain from buying a sample library than from buying one...



One reason why I love the Cinematic Studio Series...


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Apr 11, 2018)

Sid Francis said:


> When I mentioned this fact some years ago that we all are forced to buy pricey products without being allowed to test drive them, people were throwing stones at me...funny how long it takes until you come to the same conclusion. My drives are full of unused libs for which I sometimes did not even need 30 minutes to know that they are useless for me. Latest example being a solo/FC string lib by a very respected developer which neither sound- nor playability wise was what I expected ALTOUGH there was a long walkthrough. 200$ burned and after the decline of the cd industry I cannot afford 200$ too easily. Means next purchase will come in 6-12 months :-(


Would this be the same developer that released a new instrument and updated samples just the other day?
If so, might want to dust it off and check that out


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## rrichard63 (Apr 11, 2018)

axb312 said:


> ... Why not lower the costs for entry, reduce piracy and sell in volume rather than trying to recover costs at a higher price level with fewer sales? ...


After the cost of recording samples and crafting them into a library, the second largest cost of doing business is providing technical support. (For some products, it might be even larger.) The cost of providing tech support is directly related to the number of copies sold.


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## tehreal (Apr 11, 2018)

Jay Panikkar said:


> distributing gigabytes of data is dirt cheap in the present day.



Bandwidth for outbound data transfers can run up to tens of thousands of dollars per year.



Jay Panikkar said:


> Once a developer recoups the cost of production



Renting a hall plus paying 50 or so orchestral musicians, engineers, etc. for a few sessions can put you at 100K+. Now comes the many weeks of cutting, processing and programming which will run into the thousands. Now comes marketing costs. Support costs. And those bandwidth costs. And maybe license costs to NI. Larger companies have rent, utilities, insurance, employee insurance, etc.



Jay Panikkar said:


> the margins are ridiculous.



On top of all that, the market has a limited size and one has to estimate sales beforehand (the P's of marketing) to determine if all that cost will be recouped and how much profit is to be had, and when that might happen.



Jay Panikkar said:


> There is little reason for sample libraries to be priced as high as they are.



There are many on this forum much more knowledgeable about this than I am but I would guess that a lot of developers have to be careful about pricing, for the reasons stated above, competition and other things I've surely missed.


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## Jay Panikkar (Apr 11, 2018)

I'm not referring to Indie developers, though. I specifically said *big developers*, those who have a well-oiled system in place for all their production and then price their libraries as if they were luxury items.


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## Saxer (Apr 11, 2018)

Jay Panikkar said:


> I'm not referring to Indie developers, though. I specifically said *big developers*, those who have a well-oiled system in place for all their production and then price their libraries as if they were luxury items.


It's easy to talk that way. No big developer got a well oiled system for free. Nor is anybody a big developer without years of investment. Sampling is still handcraft and requires manpower. It's like people saying: Producing music is just pressing a button on a computer.


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## Jay Panikkar (Apr 11, 2018)

tehreal said:


> Bandwidth for outbound data transfers can run up to tens of thousands of dollars per year.
> 
> Renting a hall plus paying 50 or so orchestral musicians, engineers, etc. for a few sessions can put you at 100K+. Now comes the many weeks of cutting, processing and programming which will run into the thousands. Now comes marketing costs. Support costs. And those bandwidth costs. And maybe license costs to NI. Larger companies have rent, utilities, insurance, employee insurance, etc.
> 
> ...



Again, we're not talking about physical products with limited stock that incur recurring production costs to physically replenish. What we're dealing with are digital products with unlimited stock that incur only recurring maintenance costs once it is produced and, in most cases, cannot be resold/refunded.

All of the costs that you've alluded will come down to only a fraction of what would be required to produce and maintain physical products.


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## d.healey (Apr 11, 2018)

tehreal said:


> Bandwidth for outbound data transfers can run up to tens of thousands of dollars per year.


This cost is usually covered by the customer.


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## tehreal (Apr 11, 2018)

d.healey said:


> This cost is usually covered by the customer.



The customers pay for everything. That's how businesses stay in business. It's why price points are what they are. I was merely trying to explain to him why libraries can be pricey even though they are not physical products.


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## Saxer (Apr 11, 2018)

There's a current mentality that things has to be easier and cheaper just because people want it. Every work that others do isn't hard. Hard is the work I do. And all arguments for the own needs are ok while the others are wrong or less important.

I don't want to assume everybody arguing here thinking that way. But there is a tendency that already destroyed the music market because nobody pays for music any more.
Ask young people why they don't pay for music and they have all good reasons for not paying musicians. Music is fun, it's a hobby, stars are too rich anyway for doing nothing, music can be done in spare time and it's made by computer anyway, musicians get payed when they play live, I don't steal anything when making a copy, composers should sing their own songs and play gigs or do a real job during the day...
And it looks like these kind of arguments are coming up here too.


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## d.healey (Apr 11, 2018)

tehreal said:


> The customers pay for everything. That's how businesses stay in business. It's why price points are what they are. I was merely trying to explain to him why libraries can be pricey even though they are not physical products.


Well when you put it like that my last post seems dumb  What I really meant was when budgeting for a sample library the developer doesn't need to worry about the bandwidth/hosting costs as it is passed on directly to the customer as the cost is incurred. Unlike all the other costs which are upfront and must first be incurred by the developer long before the product reaches the market.


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## JEPA (Apr 11, 2018)

its all about the multiplication factor. Lets take X library at $399 ~$400.

$400 x 100 = $40.000

lets say you have offered a string library. after @d.healey told me about musicians union, you pay a musician like for 3-4 hours session so like more or less:

https://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/Files/Rates/Recording-Rates/MU-Standard-Library-Music-Agreement
"RecordingSessions
2.1A recording session shall be either:

2.1.1 Three hours in duration, including a break of not less than 15 minutes, but no more than 21 minutes of music recorded at such session may be used by the Producer.

2.1.2 Four hours in duration, including a break of not less than 20 minutes, but no more than 28 minutes of music recorded at such session may be used by the Producer.

2.2Overtime (in no event to exceed 30 minutes) shall only take place for the completion of a work or title commenced during the recording session with the agreement of the Performers.

3 Fees
3.1 The fee for a three hour recording session shall be a minimum of £132.60; 3.2 The fee for a four hour recording session shall be a minimum of £176.80; "

so you can multiply round £180 x how many strings musicians? 12 first violins? how much II violins? then violas, cellos, double bass... ehemmm, where are the winds, brass, perc? lets say like "The Orchestra" 80 musicians:

80 x £180 = £14.400,00 = 20.426,30USD = 16.512,04EUR

that means after you have sold 50 copies you have cover the musicians costs, now the studio costs will be covered by the next 50 copies, that means the 100 copies at beginning.

You have to sell over 100 copies to begin to make a profit out of it... *quickly calculated...*

*EDIT: i have not calculated edition, post-production costs, distribution, etc...*


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## Saxer (Apr 11, 2018)

JEPA said:


> *quickly calculated...*


This fee allows 21 minutes per hour recording time. Makes one hour of sample recording. That's 1 GB stereo. About 20% of that time might be useful sample material after editing (if you are lucky). That's a nice pad and a few shorts. Good luck selling that for 400... quickly calculated.


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## benmrx (Apr 11, 2018)

JEPA said:


> *EDIT: i have not calculated edition, post-production costs, distribution, etc...*



I do believe you're 'etc.' would be hold _quite a few_ line items. I'm guessing your 'end cost' estimate isn't even close to 1/4 way there. Just take the two costs you outlined. How confident are you, that even at peak performance, with a well oiled production team, that you could sample all 80 players in a single 3/4 hour sitting, knowing that you can only use about 1 hour of actual material. These $400 orchestral libraries can take weeks of recording, months of editing, months of scripting, GUI design, marketing, hell I bet the paperwork alone is a full time job.


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## Saxer (Apr 11, 2018)

...plus travelling, tax, score writing, concepts, test recordings, booking, getting a team together, lend money for pre paying everything...


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## JEPA (Apr 11, 2018)

very nice guys @Saxer and @benmrx ! now i have gotten the real prices!  . i wanted only to make quickly calculations, but i knew i was never-less near the real costs, but without being accurate this calculation shows how difficult and expensive is to make a good library, thx for your comments!

EDIT: in fact i believe it could be multiplied x 4 times... i knew it was lot more expensive...


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## brek (Apr 11, 2018)

Personally, I'd rather buy one library for $2000 that I know is _exactly _what I need (and fits my workflow, blah, blah, blah) than five $400 ones that still don't get me what I need. Which is to say, if TBYB was widespread in this market I would gladly pay significantly more.

Walkthrough videos are nice and all as a way to talk yourself into buying a library, but one need only look at the DJ HZS thread to see that even a 5 hour long walkthrough isn't comprehensive enough to really get a handle on a library.


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## Jay Panikkar (Apr 11, 2018)

benmrx said:


> How confident are you, that even at peak performance, with a well oiled production team, that you could sample all 80 players in a single 3/4 hour sitting, knowing that you can only use about 1 hour of actual material.


Bizarre logic.

The whole point of a well-oiled production team is efficiency, which means you're using people who know what to do and how to do it without wasting resources. Most importantly, it means bringing together people who know how to work with each other, which is a major boon to production efficiency. The result is that you will get far more yield than any production team that is doing their first sampling project together. This applies to the musicians and engineers, as well as everyone else involved.



JEPA said:


> its all about the multiplication factor. Lets take X library at $399 ~$400.
> 
> $400 x 100 = $40.000
> 
> ...





Saxer said:


> ...plus travelling, tax, score writing, concepts, test recordings, booking, getting a team together, lend money for pre paying everything...


... all of which amounts to a tiny fraction of what it takes to create and move physical products. A hundred copies is not a difficult target for a big developer. Any developer with the capability to produce a series of large sample libraries will know how to move a lot more than a measly hundred copies. If they failed to do so, they would shut down after their first big sampling project. Also, there are no dusty boxes sitting somewhere in a warehouse that failed to sell.

There are several ways for a developer to alleviate the cost of production. One or more composers may approach a developer to build their own private sample libraries. The composer(s) may personally invest, covering a good chunk of the production costs. They may even offer their own production team to assist in or even head the project. The composer(s) get their exclusive samples, and the developer gets to repackage some of the samples to be sold as a consumer product. Usually, all of this will be worked out before they even start the actual production.

You are underestimating how many people are buying sample libraries. There are a lot of people trying to break into this industry using sample libraries. There are many hobbyists too.

Going back to the OP, the only reason we're talking about these costs is because most sample libraries can't be resold or refunded.


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## james7275 (Apr 11, 2018)

A someone else mentioned, just don't buy from companies that don't allow resale. There's a sticky posting at the top of the sample talk page called:Resale/License transfer LIST...Click on it, and see who's on the resale friendly list. You've pretty much got all of your virtual instrument needs covered within that list.


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## williemyers (Apr 11, 2018)

axb312 said:


> One reason why I love the Cinematic Studio Series...


???


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## benmrx (Apr 11, 2018)

Totally rough guessing here, but I would imagine the average (top tier, think OT, Spitfire, Cinesamples, etc.) $400'ish orchestral library


Jay Panikkar said:


> Bizarre logic.
> 
> The whole point of a well-oiled production team is efficiency, which means you're using people who know what to do and how to do it without wasting resources. Most importantly, it means bringing together people who know how to work with each other, which is a major boon to production efficiency. The result is that you will get far more yield than any production team that is doing their first sampling project together. This applies to the musicians and engineers, as well as everyone else involved.



What's bizarre? I fully agree with everything you said..., it's exactly what I was inciting. A 'well oiled machine' should mean absolute peak productivity. But...., (and maybe this is where we disagree) even at peak productivity, I still don't think you can possibly get all the sampling you need from an 80 piece orchestra in a single (4 hour day) of sampling. Especially if you're limited to only being able to keep/use 1 hour of actual material in your product/production.



> Going back to the OP, the only reason we're talking about these costs is because most sample libraries can't be resold or refunded.



Yep. I know people hate iLok..., but man..., it would (mostly) solve the piracy problem AND the trial problem. I don't think NI would ever do it though. It would take a developer creating their own engine.


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## Jay Panikkar (Apr 12, 2018)

benmrx said:


> A 'well oiled machine' should mean absolute peak productivity. But...., (and maybe this is where we disagree) even at peak productivity, I still don't think you can possibly get all the sampling you need from an 80 piece orchestra in a single (4 hour day) of sampling. Especially if you're limited to only being able to keep/use 1 hour of actual material in your product/production.
> 
> Yep. I know people hate iLok..., but man..., it would (mostly) solve the piracy problem AND the trial problem. I don't think NI would ever do it though. It would take a developer creating their own engine.


Oh, now I see what you mean. Language gap on my part. Yeah, you're right that there will be some hiccups in production even if you have the greatest production team ever assembled. 

I strongly believe that iLoks can solve the problem being discussed here. Atleast, it'll solve a huge part of the problem.


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## Rctec (Apr 12, 2018)

I didn’t read most of this, but just want to chime in (and probably start a new war...)
I’ve been doing this - not as a commercial library, just for the projects I work on - for a loooong Time. Since 1994. So here is my (very personal) perspective:

Musicians!!! ...it all starts with hiring highly trained session players, that have very expensive instruments. Now, I can’t say to them i want to try them out for a session, and if it doesn’t suit my style, or i don’t like their sound, I’m not going to pay them for the work they did. I booked them, they played, simple.

When we first started our Serious sampling adventure, we did 22 three-hour sessions, just with the strings. And you know what? Most of it was awful. Unusable. 32 violins, 12 violas, 14 celli, 6 Basses... all in the bin. We had the most perfect but completely soul-less set of samples. We had gone for the most in-tune, in-time technically (or so we thought) performances. But you could hear the boredom of the players in each note. Not their fault. We didn’t know how to get a performance from them into only playing a single note. And neither did they. They don’t teach how to perform for sampling at Music School. And in a large hall like Air, you have to wait 4 seconds for the note to decay before you get the next note. Or re-do the crappy one....And it took a huge team months to cut and loop and de-noise. We had to build our own sample editor, because nothing could loop 32 microphones in those days. We built our own sampler, (which - and this is where I could start a war, but let’s please not- still sounds better than anything else) because nothing sounded that good, or could play back that amount of data. And we designed a sampler to do one thing and one thing only: reproduce orchestral instruments. Not do fancy sound-design. And make it not crash, because Mark could specify every part in it, which is vital if you want to have a uniform and stable set-up. That’s why I think it’s impossible to truly Beta-test for any and all systems. Or user error. Or people not willing to RTFM!

But even with the finest musicians, those samples where awful.
But I paid the musicians and the team. Because musicians deserve to be paid. When they turn up and bring Years of musicianship into the studio, they deserve to be rewarded. And we paid them at the top film-rate... it’s their livelihood, they are professionals and deserve that respect.

I’m not a hobby composer, and the musicians I work with are not hobby musicians. But these days a sample library will let anyone who loves to write music have access to the finest musicians. And that’s truly great! (I say this being fully aware that having the same musicians do a live performance is quite a step up from even the best sample library)

But back to my disastrous start in creating a sample library...So we learned. And so did the players.
No, I’m not going to get into how we managed to make it work. It’ll only get into some weird zen while maintaining passion bullshit...
It takes a lot of thought, trial and error, planning and musicianship to get a good library together. Because you need to hear the musicianship and the humanity amplified in each note - and still have it perfectly in tune and a proper ensemble sound on the start of each note.

Since I wasn’t ever going to make this library commercially available, I never bothered to find out about “try before you buy”. But I know that I wasn’t going to do that to the actual musicians that performed for us.

I don’t really know the business side of the sample industry. I’ve never asked the “Spitfire” guys if it was a good or bad business. I work with them because they started by copying what I was doing. And I don’t mean that as a slight or offensive or derogatory in any way: Paul and Christian where fellow composers that - first and foremost wanted to have similar tools to me for their music. They liked the same players. They liked the same acoustic space. They knew that the players respond in a certain way in this space. They make the hall an extension of their sound. Most of the other developers I’ve met seem to have a similar story: they are composers and musicians first and the businessmen comes way, way down the importance. It’s a niche market in a cottage industry. If you want to make a lot of money, sampling might not be the next IPhone...

...the people who run my business wished we could “try before we buy” - every time I come up with an idea. Because it’s always on the brink of disaster.

....and that’s just a tiny part of what I learned about sampling.

-Hz-


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## Heledir (Apr 12, 2018)

Rctec said:


> I didn’t read most of this, but just want to chime in (and probably start a new war...)



War... War never changes.


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## d.healey (Apr 12, 2018)

Jay Panikkar said:


> I strongly believe that iLoks can solve the problem being discussed here.


Yes, and they will create a bunch of new ones  also iLoks can't be used with Kontakt.


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## MPortmann (Apr 12, 2018)

brek said:


> Personally, I'd rather buy one library for $2000 that I know is _exactly _what I need (and fits my workflow, blah, blah, blah) than five $400 ones that still don't get me what I need. Which is to say, if TBYB was widespread in this market I would gladly pay significantly more.
> 
> Walkthrough videos are nice and all as a way to talk yourself into buying a library, but one need only look at the DJ HZS thread to see that even a 5 hour long walkthrough isn't comprehensive enough to really get a handle on a library.





Rctec said:


> I didn’t read most of this, but just want to chime in (and probably start a new war...)
> I’ve been doing this - not as a commercial library, just for the projects I work on - for a loooong Time. Since 1994. So here is my (very personal) perspective:
> 
> Musicians!!! ...it all starts with hiring highly trained session players, that have very expensive instruments. Now, I can’t say to them i want to try them out for a session, and if it doesn’t suit my style, or i don’t like their sound, I’m not going to pay them for the work they did. I booked them, they played, simple.
> ...



Thank you for perspective and for sharing a glimpse into some of your sampling ‘behind the scenes’ experiences in what it takes (huge effort and undertaking to say the least) to get these orchestral sample instruments to function, be playable and breathe like they do. 

It’s extremely helpful to hear your unique perspective (frontiering sampling w live musicians & orchestras) on this (and many other) subjects. Your influence in this area is a major contribution. And I’m sure I’ve reaped the rewards in some ways I’ll never know from being a Spitfire customer and with other developers. 

Point taken (swallow gulp humbled thankful. That we are getting incredible instruments (fine musicians, studios, personnel, 1000s+hrs of labor...) in our hands for about the cost of a single dbl scale 3hr musician. These are unique times and good problems to have so many choices. 

And if starting a war somehow leads to having a new sampler. Start war too 

Man this just changes how I think about music....“Because you need to hear the musicianship and the humanity amplified in each note - “

Inspired.


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## JEPA (Apr 12, 2018)

Rctec said:


> I didn’t read most of this, but just want to chime in (and probably start a new war...)
> I’ve been doing this - not as a commercial library, just for the projects I work on - for a loooong Time. Since 1994. So here is my (very personal) perspective:
> 
> Musicians!!! ...it all starts with hiring highly trained session players, that have very expensive instruments. Now, I can’t say to them i want to try them out for a session, and if it doesn’t suit my style, or i don’t like their sound, I’m not going to pay them for the work they did. I booked them, they played, simple.
> ...



very instructive post! so about my quickly calculations... they can now be multiplied by x10. . . I have not experience with sampling large orchestral sets of musicians and i can now understand all the planning and post-production going there. Thanks for chiming in!

Jorge


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