# What’s Your #1 Mock-up Secret, and Learning Focus?



## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 23, 2022)

Hey all! Just thought about an idea I’d love to discuss with you, it’s a question that I think might help each other and stimulate some differing opinions. 

The question is: what is 1 midi orchestration tip that really revolutionized the way you do mock-ups and made your work sound so much more realistic? 

The follow up question to that would be: what is one additional secret or technique you would love to understand and internalize to make your mock-ups even better? 

For me, understanding the core element of balance among instruments and frequencies is a strong determining factor in the realism of a mock-up, and something I always turn back to when working on an arrangement. 

In terms of what I’d like to learn more about, mixing/mastering is something I’m always striving to improve upon, and understanding more about the intricacies of certain instruments overall would be wonderful as well. 

Excited to hear your thoughts my friends! 🙂


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## A.Heppelmann (Jan 23, 2022)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> In terms of what I’d like to learn more about, mixing/mastering is something I’m always striving to improve upon, and understanding more about the intricacies of certain instruments overall would be wonderful as well.


I'm in the same boat -- I'm constantly learning things about mixing, though I still feel as though it's my weakest area. I actually think learning more about acoustics and sound engineering has made me a better orchestrator as well. So for me all of the tips on mixing and acoustics, especially on this forum, have been the most helpful!


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## ed buller (Jan 23, 2022)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> what is 1 midi orchestration tip that really revolutionized the way you do mock-ups and made your work sound so much more realistic?


Copying. Importing a recording of a piece. Get the score. Mock it up exactly and try and beat the recording. 

Best

e


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 23, 2022)

A.Heppelmann said:


> I'm in the same boat -- I'm constantly learning things about mixing, though I still feel as though it's my weakest area. I actually think learning more about acoustics and sound engineering has made me a better orchestrator as well. So for me all of the tips on mixing and acoustics, especially on this forum, have been the most helpful!


Lovely, thanks Alex!


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 23, 2022)

ed buller said:


> Copying. Importing a recording of a piece. Get the score. Mock it up exactly and try and beat the recording.
> 
> Best
> 
> e


Ambitious, but love it!


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## ChickenAndARoll (Jan 23, 2022)

Layering: When I first started with MIDI production, I tried to always keep reality in mind and would never layer sounds (e.g. combining multiple string libraries on the same part) because I assumed that would result in an unrealistic sound. Then I saw Anne-Kathrin Dern's fantastic Jurassic Park mock-up tutorial which made me realize that to achieve a more realistic sound in the DAW and MIDI world, you sometimes have to go about it in a way that is theoretically "unrealistic" but ends up sounding much better.


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## José Herring (Jan 23, 2022)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Hey all! Just thought about an idea I’d love to discuss with you, it’s a question that I think might help each other and stimulate some differing opinions.
> 
> The question is: what is 1 midi orchestration tip that really revolutionized the way you do mock-ups and made your work sound so much more realistic?


I stopped trying to be realistic and started to just focus on musicality. 


ChrisSiuMusic said:


> The follow up question to that would be: what is one additional secret or technique you would love to understand and internalize to make your mock-ups even better?


Clarity and instrument placement in a mix.


ChrisSiuMusic said:


> For me, understanding the core element of balance among instruments and frequencies is a strong determining factor in the realism of a mock-up, and something I always turn back to when working on an arrangement.
> 
> In terms of what I’d like to learn more about, mixing/mastering is something I’m always striving to improve upon, and understanding more about the intricacies of certain instruments overall would be wonderful as well.
> 
> Excited to hear your thoughts my friends!


Cool!


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## Instrugramm (Jan 23, 2022)

Probably not to cut too many frequencies out of your samples as it makes them sound very artificial and it's probably the one thing I notice most when listening to mock-ups. In a real orchestra there are some sympathetic noises that will actually make the sound feel alive, oh and I'm not talking about the silly Spitfire room noise stuff in Appassionata (that's just gonna give the impression of a lazy mix imo).

So in short, it's probably good advice to get decent headphones and check whether cutting out "all the mud" actually makes the sound clearer or just artificial.

Ps. And as it has been said, one should probably stop caring about realism, you can go from solo strings to chamber to symphonic and "normal" people won't care as long as the composition in itself is good (some great movie soundtracks got recorded in different rooms...). Layering and aperture are great tools to achieve a better sound.


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## JJP (Jan 23, 2022)

There was a similar thread a few years ago. Here's my contribution: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/your-favorite-midi-orchestration-tip.56385/post-3999327


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## antames (Jan 23, 2022)

Using a reference track as a guide and trying to mimic the sound as closely as possible. It makes you try all different kinds of tricks and techniques you ordinarily wouldn't think of, and also forces you out of your comfort zone, and you ultimately end up improving and getting better for next time.


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## KEM (Jan 23, 2022)

I’m with @José Herring on this one, I stopped focusing on realism and just started focusing on what sounds good, a lot of times the stuff I can do on my computer is much cooler than what could be done in real life, so why limit myself?


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## CT (Jan 23, 2022)

The thing that always seems to make me feel more satisfied with VI-based music, both while working and then listening to the result, is zero reliance on a click track/grid. Obviously that's a luxury which is not always possible given realities of working to picture, and some music does benefit from mechanically tight timing, of course. But, I vastly prefer to avoid that when it is sensible.

Otherwise the "principles" I have espoused over the years are about efficiency and common musical sense.

- Know how the "real thing" works, in every single aspect: instrumentation, orchestration, arrangement, recording. Then translate as necessary to VI world. Hint: you really _don't have to_ translate much.

- Use libraries that don't need much tweaking, layering, or other lab experiments to sound well-recorded and musical; ideally, libraries that need no tweaking at all.

- Capture as much via real time performance as possible, in terms of both notes and CC information, to minimize tweaking necessary after the fact.

- Use things like articulation sets to make edits to achieve appropriate phrasing/playing technique simple to manage.

- Don't overthink mixing and processing unless that's a stylistic necessity. For me that often means... do basically no mixing or processing.

The one thing I'd like to change is my patience level. Efficiency never goes out of style, but I could definitely stand to have more patience for this part of the process.


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## ryans (Jan 23, 2022)

One major step for me was learning that sampled sounds do not combine like live players.

I've got my 4 violins divisi patch here so logically I can play a 3 note chord and it will sound like 12 violins right? *..No it won't.*

But if I play a 3 note chord with my 12 violins patch it will sound like 36 violins! *..No, it won't.*

Etc. etc.


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## David Kudell (Jan 23, 2022)

Hey Chris, I work out my chords and melody first, usually with a piano. If it works as a simple piano sketch it’s usually going to work when it’s fully orchestrated.


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## NoamL (Jan 23, 2022)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> The question is: what is 1 midi orchestration tip that really revolutionized the way you do mock-ups and made your work sound so much more realistic?


Tempo automation. If the piece _will not_ be recorded live, I try to liven up the phrases the way musicians would naturally do, pushing or stretching the tempo at certain points.


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## KEM (Jan 23, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> Hey Chris, I work out my chords and melody first, usually with a piano. If it works as a simple piano sketch it’s usually going to work when it’s fully orchestrated.



I wish I could compose this way but I just can’t, I guess I’m too “new school” but if I don’t have a sound that immediately grabs my attention then I usually get turned off really quickly, half the time my tracks start off with a synth or a guitar and the orchestra comes later


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## jononotbono (Jan 23, 2022)

A 15 page thread asking the same thing and loaded with great tips...

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/your-favorite-midi-orchestration-tip.56385/


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## mybadmemory (Jan 23, 2022)

Listening to reference tracks of live recordings. Trying to understand how the instruments are played in real life. Spending enough time on the editing of velocities, melodic phrasing, and CCs.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Jan 23, 2022)

These may not be universal laws but have been a big improvement in my own experience :

- Playing as much things as possible manually
- Getting the CC1 right at the same time as the notes. For some reason my brain does a better job if everything is done at once. Recording CC1 afterwards always feels more disconnected and random.


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## mybadmemory (Jan 24, 2022)

Balancing with dynamics and performance instead of with mixing.


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## Henu (Jan 24, 2022)

I've actually found that doing things with notation and actual orchestration in mind first helps tremendously. 

I do a first pass in a way I'd do it for live players and then bring the midi to a completely new project where I start to do the final production. Then I start to listen which parts work and which don't, change samples or even libraries, reinforce and augment things if needed and finally add some glue and realism with some combination patches layered in, etc if I feel the sound isn't "there" yet. 

While working with samples is completely different thing than live orchestra, I've found the best results to happen in my case when the orchestration is done "properly" from the ground up- or as well and as realistically done as I humanly can with my skills (which I try to develop every day).


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## Marcus Millfield (Jan 24, 2022)

The same as with photography: keep the noise.

When I just started out in photography, I was doing extensive work on noise reduction, until I realized how big an impact it had on clarity, details an blurring in my image. Especially when printing in smaller sizes, nobody would notice the noise.

Same goes for samples/music: leave the noise. It adds a lot.

Something I want to learn more about: room placement.


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## KEM (Jan 24, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> The same as with photography: keep the noise.
> 
> When I just started out in photography, I was doing extensive work on noise reduction, until I realized how big an impact it had on clarity, details an blurring in my image. Especially when printing in smaller sizes, nobody would notice the noise.
> 
> ...



That’s a good point actually, one of the reasons I love Nolan’s cinematography is the amount of noise, it makes it look very analog and pristine, whereas Marvel movies are so clean you can tell they’re shot on digital cameras and it just ends up looking like low budget tv shows


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## Gerbil (Jan 24, 2022)

Inspired some years back by Prokofiev’s comments about the exciting new possibilities of orchestration using recording techniques (I think his example was that a bassoon could be made louder than a trumpet), I’ve moved away from aspiring to realism and more towards experimentation. Traditional orchestration is something I reserve for music intended for live performance.


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## pawelmorytko (Jan 24, 2022)

For me it's that you don't have to do everything by the book. Don't be afraid to ignore and bend the musical _rules _as long as the end product sounds good. 

Who cares if you're layering a spiccato patch on top of a long marcato for a more pronounced attack. Who cares if the piece you're trying to mock-up is using 30 string players but your mock-up sounds more accurate, realistic and overall better when using 60 virtual string players. Who cares if the piece says only the violins play a line but you sneak in some violas to beefen up the sound.

As long as it works and the end result ends up being better thanks to bending these _rules _then you shouldn't worry about not going by the book. It's all about what _sounds good_.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 24, 2022)

I love these tips guys. Thanks so much! If you have more to share, please do!


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## muziksculp (Jan 26, 2022)

pawelmorytko said:


> For me it's that you don't have to do everything by the book. Don't be afraid to ignore and bend the musical _rules _as long as the end product sounds good.
> 
> Who cares if you're layering a spiccato patch on top of a long marcato for a more pronounced attack. Who cares if the piece you're trying to mock-up is using 30 string players but your mock-up sounds more accurate, realistic and overall better when using 60 virtual string players. Who cares if the piece says only the violins play a line but you sneak in some violas to beefen up the sound.
> 
> As long as it works and the end result ends up being better thanks to bending these _rules _then you shouldn't worry about not going by the book. It's all about what _sounds good_.


@pawelmorytko ,

This is so important. Thanks for posting. 

imho. Being able to evaluate your sounds without the names/labels or size of section being attributed to them is super important. imho. Using your ears critically is the most important, and useful tool.

It is very much like painting, you mix your colors until you find the color that works for you, and that you like in context of the big picture. You don't just use a standard color i.e. Cobalt Blue from the paint tube, and use it as is, but, you rather mix it with other colors, and create the shade of blue that looks right to you in context, and that suits your taste. It's all about being an artist, and enjoying the process of creation.

The same principle applies to music. i.e. If a Spicc. Violin Section of a certain library doesn't sound right, or as you would like it to, then mix it with another articulation, or edit it until it sounds the way you like. But deciding on what one likes requires a good amount of experience with the media, in this case having a very good sonic evaluation, and memory of how real orchestras sound, and how you wish i.e. a specific articulation to sound in your track.

This evaluation process takes time, and experience to develop, there is no short cut.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Greeno (Jan 26, 2022)

spend less time on Vi- Control hahahahahah


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## Rob Elliott (Jan 26, 2022)

Don't be lazy in learning. Know the rules - THEN - break them with reckless abandonment. Happy mistakes are my favorite discoveries. Take gigs that are out of your normal wheelhouse (I just finished a very fulfilling project that asked for - 70s mashed up with Brazilian with a touch of synth modern.) Challenging, but so rewarding.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 26, 2022)

Thanks to forum members, I learned to use legato patches instead of playing chords with sustain patches (which I still do if it sounds convincing). For example, this stopped my brass sections from sounding "synthy" and unrealistic in big orchestrations.

Also, for years I never really used woodwinds very much. But again, thanks to this forum, I've learned how to incorporate them into orchestrations.

Most recently, @A.Dern had that video that demonstrated how to orchestrate melody lines....this worked wonders with my compositions.


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## RogiervG (Jan 26, 2022)

Do not use percussion untill the end (a tip i recently heard about, and it's actually true! Well for majority of cases)
Also start simple, and work your way up to a bigger orchestration, keep listening to oddities and take care of them. Take enough breaks (to clear your mind and remedy ear fatigue), don't rush.

For DAW first approach:
Also check the score (build into the daw) to keep track of whats happening.
Balance your instruments (volume/pan).

For Notation first:
Don't work ad hoc on all kinds of instruments in chaotic ways: Work instruments groups/sections at a time (e.g. work on the woodwinds for bar 1 to 10, then later to the same but for strings or violins only etc etc) in otherwords... don't jump suddenly from violins1 to flute2 to piano etc..
staying within the same section or group of instruments for given bars, keeps you more focussed and less chaotic in your mind.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 26, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> keep listening to oddities and take care of them


I am awful for this! I always think I'm going to go back and take care of those little things, but often get lazy. The key is to fix any issues before moving on.


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## RogiervG (Jan 26, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I am awful for this! I always think I'm going to go back and take care of those little things, but often get lazy. The key is to fix any issues before moving on.


Yes, i know the feeling of becoming lazy.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 26, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> Yes, i know the feeling of becoming lazy.


I think we all do XD


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## Rob Elliott (Jan 26, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I am awful for this! I always think I'm going to go back and take care of those little things, but often get lazy. The key is to fix any issues before moving on.


I remember a JNH interview years ago which he relates the same thing. Essentially "I finish completely each 4-8 bars and THEN move on." For me the message was get it right at possible before moving on. It also makes for interesting 'turns' in your music (ideas completely thought out.)


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Jan 26, 2022)

Watch Gergiev and Karajan run orchestra rehearsals. Implement their ideas.


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