# How can you notate bird calls? (to violinists and flautists mainly)



## Guy Bacos (Jun 25, 2014)

Would anybody know a piece where birds calls are imitated and that actually sounds like real birds, I need to see the exact notation used. I know that some violinists do this very effectively on the very high register, but to my knowledge nobody notates this stuff. I know Messiaen has a lot of birdies in his music, but that's not helpful, it's a different approach, his birds sounds a little scary to me. The Cuckoo is an easy one, a minor 3rd down, everybody knows that, but most are quite complicated to put on a staff and then played by other instruments sounding close to the bird call. Beethoven and Vivaldi are the only reference I know. Beethoven in his Pastoral did that in a masterful way, but I'm looking for something more like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0uJJVla4kc (Dinicu: A pacsirta) at 2 min.
Does any violinist here would be able to notate this? Or any kind of help in imitating bird calls on orchestral instruments, but I mean with the regular instruments, violin, flute oboe, not special gadgets to imitate birds.


----------



## Sampleconstruct (Jun 25, 2014)

I have used the following techniques in the past to notate bird calls (and other things) and transcribe them for instruments:

Use old school sampling:
Load the bird recording into you sampler, transpose it down by e.g. 4 octaves which also slows down the speed by 16 times, then bounce the result to wav, setup a tempo/grid/time signature in your DAW and start transcribing manually. Or load the result into Melodyne and use the Audio to Midi function, the results will be pretty good depending on the complexity of the bird song. If you load the original bird directly into Melodyne at the original speed/pitch the results won't be as accurate as the frequencies are often too high and the speed often too fast to be analyzed correctly. Once transcribed you can transpose the result back up again into the original range of the bird, depending on the range of the instruments you're writing for.

You can also try granular sampling/time stretching at the original pitch (if your hearing is that good in the very high register), slow down the bird by e.g. 10 times to unfold the rhythmical information, or use a combination of time-stretching and transposition.

Of course birds don't (always) sing in a tempered scale (some do actually), so you would have to decide if you use microtonal notation (which is always inaccurate as most orchestral/clsassically trained players have no experience with microtonal intervals) or you can force the pitches into a chromatic scale so that conventional chromatic notation will suffice. Melodyne can do this for you by retuning/quantizing the bird's pitches to the nearest chromatic note available.

I have also down this with human voice sounds like laughing or speech.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 25, 2014)

Thanks for that great info! It certainly a clever way to get the correct notes and timing. 





Sampleconstruct @ Thu Jun 26 said:


> Of course birds don't (always) sing in a tempered scale (some do actually), so you would have to decide if you use microtonal notation (which is always inaccurate as most orchestral/clsassically trained players have no experience with microtonal intervals) or you can force the pitches into a chromatic scale so that conventional chromatic notation will suffice. Melodyne can do this for you by retuning/quantizing the bird's pitches to the nearest chromatic note available.



Yes! That is the big challenge, birds never sing a specific pitch but in between pitches as you were saying, and for me is to find a way to notate this so a violin player can play that. It's like taking the notes of a Miles Davis tune and giving it to a classical player, we know it will sound totally different even with the exact notes. I'm surprised nobody has attempted this, maybe they got too discouraged...


----------



## Sampleconstruct (Jun 25, 2014)

Guy Bacos @ Thu Jun 26 said:


> Yes! That is the big challenge, birds never sing a specific pitch but in between pitches as you were saying, and for me is to find a way to notate this so a violin player can play that. It's like taking the notes of a Miles Davis tune and giving it to a classical player, we know it will sound totally different even with the exact notes. I'm surprised nobody has attempted this, maybe they got too discouraged...



But the difference in sound/end result can also be the charming/interesting thing, after all transcribing these things for conventionally trained players yields “interesting“ results to say the least, if 1:1 naturalism is the goal of the endeavour, forget about it and use a sampler sitting in the orchestra (which many avantgarde composers do these days)


----------



## Peter Alexander (Jun 25, 2014)

Guy Bacos @ Wed Jun 25 said:


> Would anybody know a piece where birds calls are imitated and that actually sounds like real birds, I need to see the exact notation used. I know that some violinists do this very effectively on the very high register, but to my knowledge nobody notates this stuff. I know Messiaen has a lot of birdies in his music, but that's not helpful, it's a different approach, his birds sounds a little scary to me. The Cuckoo is an easy one, a minor 3rd down, everybody knows that, but most are quite complicated to put on a staff and then played by other instruments sounding close to the bird call. Beethoven and Vivaldi are the only reference I know. Beethoven in his Pastoral did that in a masterful way, but I'm looking for something more like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0uJJVla4kc (Dinicu: A pacsirta) at 2 min.
> Does any violinist here would be able to notate this? Or any kind of help in imitating bird calls on orchestral instruments, but I mean with the regular instruments, violin, flute oboe, not special gadgets to imitate birds.



See Mother Goose Suite by Ravel.


----------



## Peter Costa (Jun 25, 2014)

Hello Guy,

Messiaen was actually quite obsessed with birds. This page compares his notated music with actual recordings of the birds to show how similar they are. 

http://www.oliviermessiaen.org/birdsongs.html


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 25, 2014)

Peter Costa @ Thu Jun 26 said:


> Hello Guy,
> 
> Messiaen was actually quite obsessed with birds. This page compares his notated music with actual recordings of the birds to show how similar they are.
> 
> http://www.oliviermessiaen.org/birdsongs.html



Don't get me wrong, I know Messiaen is a great composer, but listen to him describing his piece https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QdgUJss9BU (here,) as soon as the pianist plays the call on the piano, it looks like it could suite better "The Birds" by Hitchcock.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 25, 2014)

Peter Alexander @ Thu Jun 26 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Wed Jun 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Would anybody know a piece where birds calls are imitated and that actually sounds like real birds, I need to see the exact notation used. I know that some violinists do this very effectively on the very high register, but to my knowledge nobody notates this stuff. I know Messiaen has a lot of birdies in his music, but that's not helpful, it's a different approach, his birds sounds a little scary to me. The Cuckoo is an easy one, a minor 3rd down, everybody knows that, but most are quite complicated to put on a staff and then played by other instruments sounding close to the bird call. Beethoven and Vivaldi are the only reference I know. Beethoven in his Pastoral did that in a masterful way, but I'm looking for something more like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0uJJVla4kc (Dinicu: A pacsirta) at 2 min.
> ...



I will, thanks Peter.


----------



## Peter Costa (Jun 25, 2014)

hahaha! the great ones seem to always be a little crazy. I know those Messiaen Synthetic scales don't always make the prettiest sounds. I guess I would just take excerpts from some of them and put them in a diatonic scale.


----------



## clarkus (Jun 25, 2014)

I believe some of what you are responding to vis a vis Messiaen are the musical settings for the bird-calls (the orchestration, the harmonies, the counterpoint). Some of the birdcalls themselves are actually faithfully reproduced. The complexity that results on the page is a reflection of nature itself, and is also an interesting angle on contemporary classical music. The natural world and contemporary classical music share a tendency to avoid the obvious and the predictable.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 25, 2014)

I agree. But even if I take the actual notes of the faithfully reproduced bird call, at least to me, it sounds nothing like a bird call. 

Here is a ridiculous example but somewhat makes the point.


----------



## Sampleconstruct (Jun 25, 2014)

Guy Bacos @ Thu Jun 26 said:


> I agree. But even if I take the actual notes of the faithfully reproduced bird call, at least to me, it sounds nothing like a bird call.



Place the musicians on a tree, it will sound more natural that way


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 25, 2014)

No, I think I may have to ask the orchestra to whistle or get real birds.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 25, 2014)

It is pretty strange that many fiddlers have done that over the years and generations, but doesn't seem to be any existing notation of it.


----------



## Carles (Jun 26, 2014)

Haven't read all answers in detail.
It's been Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf mentioned?
Bird is represented by a flute. Not really a bird call but quite representative.

Carles


----------



## David Story (Jun 26, 2014)

Birds sing higher, faster, and more intricately than most people realize.

http://shallnot.calepin.co/bird-songs-notated.html

Like any style, you need a performer who understands the unwritten, unsampled soul of birdsong.


----------



## Tatu (Jun 26, 2014)

Why not just notate desired pitches and some rhythmic guidelines / restrictions and ad a description, ex. "like a Nightingale". Force your musicians to study/learn each sound and give them some room to imitate.


----------



## muk (Jun 26, 2014)

Tatu @ Thu Jun 26 said:


> Why not just notate desired pitches and some rhythmic guidelines / restrictions and ad a description, ex. "like a Nightingale". Force your musicians to study/learn each sound and give them some room to imitate.



Exactly my thought as well.


----------



## SymphonicSamples (Jun 26, 2014)

Hey Guy , I know it's an obvious piece , but Vaughan Williams ~ The Lark Ascending . Given the score is easy to get , it may prove useful with some of the bird calls that are woven throughout the melodic content . You know it's crazy , ever year there's a specific bird the comes for a short period of time , (a few weeks) where I live in Sydney close to an area with a lot of bush and I hear it's song repeated over this time , and what a wonderful tune . It sings the first phrase , 6 notes in a row , pitch wise identical to the main theme of the Harry Potter and almost identical rhythm as well  I think he drops the B and starts with the E and then sings the following notes and has a couple of variations on it . Given many composers have been influenced by bird songs and nature , who knows , not that I'm saying JW was in this case , but man all those years hearing this bird . Either that or wherever the birds migrates throughout the year there's someone who loves and plays the Harry Potter theme religiously and the birds loves it too


----------



## Tatu (Jun 26, 2014)

^^ that almost requires an audio for example


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 26, 2014)

Tatu @ Thu Jun 26 said:


> Why not just notate desired pitches and some rhythmic guidelines / restrictions and ad a description, ex. "like a Nightingale". Force your musicians to study/learn each sound and give them some room to imitate.



I could try this with samples first, I mean to play random motifs from some guidelines I'd give, see if that sounds credible.

The thing here is that you are relying on a very willing orchestra, however, some musicians don't like to practice and others are lazy, so that could be risky if the instructions are too complicated. I guess that's why notation was invented.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 26, 2014)

Carles @ Thu Jun 26 said:


> Haven't read all answers in detail.
> It's been Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf mentioned?
> Bird is represented by a flute. Not really a bird call but quite representative.
> 
> Carles



Yes true, as in tons of works, such as Le carnaval des animaux, but it's more the flight of the bird with an airy feel, right, more representative, but in this case I'm really looking for the actual bird call.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 26, 2014)

SymphonicSamples @ Thu Jun 26 said:


> Hey Guy , I know it's an obvious piece , but Vaughan Williams ~ The Lark Ascending . Given the score is easy to get , it may prove useful with some of the bird calls that are woven throughout the melodic content . You know it's crazy , ever year there's a specific bird the comes for a short period of time , (a few weeks) where I live in Sydney close to an area with a lot of bush and I hear it's song repeated over this time , and what a wonderful tune . It sings the first phrase , 6 notes in a row , pitch wise identical to the main theme of the Harry Potter and almost identical rhythm as well  I think he drops the B and starts with the E and then sings the following notes and has a couple of variations on it . Given many composers have been influenced by bird songs and nature , who knows , not that I'm saying JW was in this case , but man all those years hearing this bird . Either that or wherever the birds migrates throughout the year there's someone who loves and plays the Harry Potter theme religiously and the birds loves it too



Thanks for this thought, however, this might be a little too remote from what I'm looking, as this example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0uJJVla4kc (Dinicu: A pacsirta) at 2 min.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 26, 2014)

I guess you can expect in the future: " 101 Bird calls in Actual Musical Notation for the Violin and Flute" by Guy Bacos. o/~ 

Hannes might know this, he's a violinist.


----------



## clarkus (Jun 26, 2014)

Hi, Guy - Finally looked at the link to Messiaen discussing his birdsong, and I take your point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QdgUJss9BU

His goal is obviously not the same as yours (pretty entertaining, though).

I'm onboard with those who suggest some recorded solution, if you are seeking a faithful rendering rather than using the source (birds) for creative purposes.

It is worth mentioning that timbre is a big part of this. A birdcall played on piano is never going to lull a listener into believing they are hearing the real thing. A flute or Eb clarinet might.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 26, 2014)

Well, I'm seeing 2 options, 1- Rely on the virtuosity and imagination of orchestral players to create the bird call sounds, even with guidelines. 2- Use real recording of birds, as suggested by some. 

There is also a 3rd option, which is doing something very simple but still effective similar to Vivaldi in the Four Seasons and Beethoven Pastoral, or a combination of live and recorded.


----------



## Peter Costa (Jun 27, 2014)

thought I'd just throw this out there for laughs...

If you're looking at maybe not birds but cats you can always go with Rossini's Duetto Buffo di due gati. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFLF57vDYcQ


----------



## Tatu (Jun 27, 2014)

Is this for a live event, or recording? If it's live, then rehearsal, rehearsal etc. If recorded, then you could record those specific lines afterwards with the violinist and flutist in a smaller studio or a like (you know, cheaper than keeping the orchestra waiting during practice and cheaper than booking a hall), use all the time that's needed to it and mix them in.

btw, check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v5K2H_w0VE


----------



## Hannes_F (Jun 27, 2014)

This a traditional thing done by ear, I don't know any notation of this, sorry.


----------



## clarkus (Jun 27, 2014)

Not to contradict you, but there is notation & that is Messiaen's. He made a specialty of it. In a sense, the correspondent's point (or complaint) is that Messiaen made creative use of the material. 

If ones wants to use some of Messiaen's work (and he had a very good ear), one could plagiarize Messiaen, but cull out the orchestration & harmonization. After all, Messiaen was plagiarizing nature, so I wouldn't feel too bad about that.

from Wiki:

Birdsong and the 1960s

When in 1952 Messiaen was asked to provide a test piece for flautists wishing to enter the Paris Conservatoire, he composed the piece Le merle noir for flute and piano. While he had long been fascinated by birdsong, and birds had made appearances in several of his earlier works (for example La Nativité, Quatuor and Vingt regards), the flute piece was based entirely on the song of the blackbird.[44]

He took this development to a new level with his 1953 orchestral work Réveil des oiseaux—its material consists almost entirely of the birdsong one might hear between midnight and noon in the Jura.[45] From this period onwards, Messiaen incorporated birdsong into all of his compositions and composed several works for which birds provide both the title and subject matter (for example the collection of thirteen pieces for piano Catalogue d'oiseaux completed in 1958, and La fauvette des jardins of 1971).[46] Paul Griffiths observed that Messiaen was a more conscientious ornithologist than any previous composer, and a more musical observer of birdsong than any previous ornithologist.[47]

The Garden Warbler provided the title and much of the material for Messiaen's La fauvette des jardins.

Messiaen's first wife died in 1959 after a long illness, and in 1961 he married Loriod.[48] He began to travel widely, to attend musical events and to seek out and transcribe the songs of more exotic birds in the wild. Loriod frequently assisted her husband's detailed studies of birdsong while walking with him, by making tape recordings for later reference.[49]


----------



## Hannes_F (Jun 27, 2014)

@clarkus No contradiction because I said I don't know any notation, not that it would not exist.

From my point of view it would be a waste of effort because it is easier to pick up per ear than to first translate it to notation and then re-translate it to the player. Well, 'easier' is relative of course ...

For a good example here the most admired LOYKO violinists. Listen from minute 26 to the end. Have fun (video is not in real sync with sound but still).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEIn7ChFY2c#t=1637


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 27, 2014)

Hannes, is it possible to notate about 3 to 5 things you can ask the violinist to do without being specific? Ex. Sliding in the high end, but if one looks at how he's doing it, it must be possible to give a minimum of indication. Maybe an approximate note to start the slide, and quickly slide upward? Trills, about what range? Effects with harmonics? What these guys are doing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0uJJVla4kc (Dinicu: A pacsirta) at 2 min. there must be something that can be transferred on a staff, even if it approx.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 27, 2014)

Tatu @ Fri Jun 27 said:


> Is this for a live event, or recording? If it's live, then rehearsal, rehearsal etc. If recorded, then you could record those specific lines afterwards with the violinist and flutist in a smaller studio or a like (you know, cheaper than keeping the orchestra waiting during practice and cheaper than booking a hall), use all the time that's needed to it and mix them in.
> 
> btw, check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v5K2H_w0VE



That was interesting, for a moment I was wondering how they were doing these birds effects, then I understood... but cool example.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 27, 2014)

BTW, a few weeks I downloaded this amazing book by Schuyler Mathews written nearly a century ago, transcriptions of bird songs, and tons of them, along with illustrations and descriptions. So you think, ah, there's the solution, I have the notation of hundreds of birds on staff, but it's really useless if you give it to the instrumentalist like that. Just doing a sliding note on the flute of violin is already much more credible to the ear.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 27, 2014)

example of ambiguity:


----------



## Hannes_F (Jun 27, 2014)

Guy Bacos @ Fri Jun 27 said:


> Hannes, is it possible to notate about 3 to 5 things you can ask the violinist to do without being specific? Ex. Sliding in the high end, but if one looks at how he's doing it, it must be possible to give a minimum of indication. Maybe an approximate note to start the slide, and quickly slide upward? Trills, about what range? Effects with harmonics? What these guys are doing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0uJJVla4kc (Dinicu: A pacsirta) at 2 min. there must be something that can be transferred on a staff, even if it approx.



Guy, here are some ideas:


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 27, 2014)

Now we're talking! Thanks so much Hannes! This is perfect, if in your spare time you could have even more, the more the better, I'll compensate your time, but already it's great!


----------



## Lawson. (Jun 27, 2014)

I'm a violinist and the best way to do it (IMO) is to just write "Bird calls" over the measure(s) you want it done.

EDIT: I didn't see that recent post by Hannes, that works well too.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 27, 2014)

Hannes, I've sent you a pm.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 27, 2014)

Lawson. @ Fri Jun 27 said:


> I'm a violinist and the best way to do it (IMO) is to just write "Bird calls" over the measure(s) you want it done.



Could work, but isn't that a bit risky, depending on the imagination of a musician you've never met or know? I could imagine half the orchestra turning to the next chair and saying: "How the hell do you do a bird call?"


----------



## jamwerks (Jun 27, 2014)

Experience tells me that the more info you give the performers (pitch, durations), the better performance you'll get. And lot's less time wasted during rehersals. 

And some (many) classical (non-jazz) performers totally freak-out seeing alleatoric indications. You might get better performances from those same guys, by giving them the exact gesture (be it incredible difficult).

And as the guys try to do what you've written, they'll be saying to themselves: "sounds like a [email protected]'in bird call". :mrgreen:


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 27, 2014)

jamwerks @ Fri Jun 27 said:


> And as the guys try to do what you've written, they'll be saying to themselves: "sounds like a [email protected]'in bird call". :mrgreen:



Hehe!


----------



## Hannes_F (Jun 27, 2014)

Guy, here are some more. I also updated the first examples. Hope that helps!


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jun 28, 2014)

Mucho thanks Hannes!

It would be wonderful to hear a few of them, don't know if that's abusing of your kindness here.

How about the calls with a lot of repeated notes, (poco a poco accelerando.......) which often ends in a sort of trill? The repeated notes don't sound like perfect pitched notes, like a micro slide in between the notes. Having an example of that, knowing in which register works best and how to make the repeated notes sound credible would be very helpful for a lot of bird calls using a similar motif.

I imagine the woodpecker would be col legno tremolo on the tailpiece of the violin.


----------



## synergy543 (Jun 30, 2014)

Guy, you might have a look at Stravinsky's Chant du Rossignol {Song of the Nightingale} (music+score)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daR92RtTnWw

And Ottorino Respighi - The Birds {Gli Uccelli}
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8pFNQv35uI


----------



## BenG (Jul 1, 2014)

Hi Guy!

I am not certain but I do believe there is some bird-song imitation in Maria Schneider's piece for Big Band, *"Cerulean Skies"*. 

I haven't had the chance to study the score but if I recall, the work features several instruments (Trumpets, winds, accordion, piano, etc.) making quasi bird calls throughout. 

Hope this helps!


----------



## Hannes_F (Jul 1, 2014)

Guy Bacos @ Sat Jun 28 said:


> Mucho thanks Hannes!
> 
> It would be wonderful to hear a few of them



Guy, here you go:
[mp3]http://www.strings-on-demand.com/clients/GuyBacos/BirdCalls_20140701a.mp3[/mp3]
http://www.strings-on-demand.com/clients/GuyBacos/BirdCalls_20140701a.mp3 (http://www.strings-on-demand.com/client ... 40701a.mp3)

I might clean it up at some point but since I guess you are on a deadline here it is as rough and wild as it is.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jul 1, 2014)

Yes, I agree, there must be some kind of forward motion background repeated motif.

You really have the right idea on that track. I can't use your snippets for the score, since whatever I use, I'll need the exact notation, but maybe i can figure out how to notate some bits, and overall it will serve as inspiration, and you already notated several effects on the thread which looks perfect.

Thanks again Hannes for your efforts, time and great work!

Guy


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jul 1, 2014)

synergy543 @ Tue Jul 01 said:


> Guy, you might have a look at Stravinsky's Chant du Rossignol {Song of the Nightingale} (music+score)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daR92RtTnWw
> 
> And Ottorino Respighi - The Birds {Gli Uccelli}
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8pFNQv35uI



That was interesting, a bit remote from what I'm looking for, but I forgot about Le Rossignol and didn't know about The Birds by Respighi. Thanks for those suggestions!


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jul 1, 2014)

Someone mentioned to me this CD, "songbird Songs", it could help, I'm not too sure at this point from just listening to the samples, but it's an interesting suggestion for sure: 

http://www.johnlutheradams.com/recordings/songbirdsongs.html (http://www.johnlutheradams.com/recordin ... songs.html)


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jul 1, 2014)

BenG @ Tue Jul 01 said:


> Hi Guy!
> 
> I am not certain but I do believe there is some bird-song imitation in Maria Schneider's piece for Big Band, *"Cerulean Skies"*.
> 
> ...



I'L check this out, thanks.


----------



## Hannes_F (Jul 1, 2014)

Guy Bacos @ Tue Jul 01 said:


> I can't use your snippets for the score, since whatever I use, I'll need the exact notation.



Guy, maybe I did not really understand but I thought I played all the notated effects - by and large - (and then some).

Just to be sure I add the score again with the times in it. Hope that helps, Hannes


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jul 1, 2014)

Oh sorry, I meant what you were improvising on the audio track.


----------



## Hannes_F (Jul 1, 2014)

Guy Bacos @ Tue Jul 01 said:


> Oh sorry, I meant what you were improvising on the audio track.



I added some more improvisations while being in the flow but the notated examples should all be there. In variations here and there but they should be complete.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jul 1, 2014)

The effects at 36 sec and onwards is something random, is that a variation of one of the notated effects, or something different?


----------



## Hannes_F (Jul 1, 2014)

Guy Bacos @ Tue Jul 01 said:


> The effects at 36 sec and onwards is something random, is that a variation of one of the notated effects, or something different?



Guy, it is not entirely random although it sounds like it  It is supposed to be as random as a bird call, actually.

The grace notes in the last example indicate that this should be a trill with a wider interval than a second. Also this is tremoloed and played sul ponticello. This can then be combined with different note heights and also with some glissando, as I played it. Ad libitum.

After that (at 0:48:00) comes a passage that is without trill and with some identifiable glissando - it gets more violinistic and less 'birdy' there for a while, so I did not notate it.

All in all it is not fixed, just some ideas that I picked up, developed for me and improvised. As I said it is not easy to put that into notation.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jul 2, 2014)

This thread ended up being quite helpful, thanks for all the suggestions all the way to Hannes birds effects on the violin. 

And I though this thread was going to be for the birds.... Ooh, that was bad!


----------

