# This is where Apple/Logic fails



## mikebarry (Mar 2, 2011)

I've come to a great understanding of my troubles with logic (the single core problem). Although I am quite satisfied with Logic in all regards (except we need track folders) this seems an inexcusable problem.

Logic is meant to be a playback station only. This is a fundamental failure. 

What this means:

_Anything live runs off of only one core. _

What this really means:

*All *master channel FX runs off of the one core.
*All* auxes + plug ins run off this one core.
*All* buses + plug ins run off this one core.
If you were to chose a virtual instrument and enter data with it in record enable - it would run off this one core also.

Common reality:

My other cores never, ever move at all, on a computer hosting only midi and a few plug ins (2x altiverb, ozone, EOS, 2-3 EQs). I have 24 channels of ADAT coming in, if I put a few plug ins (i always use gain +EQ). They ALL are routed to one core.

This is a travesty. 

Apple is NOT aware that this is a problem. At all.... Just spoke to some senior people 
there.

They really need to be shown how much of a limitation this is for people with advanced workflows (aka not basement dwelling beat makers). I encourage you all to send feedback to apple via their website to let them know of this issue.


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## Andrew Aversa (Mar 2, 2011)

It seems like Apple has been behind the curve when it comes to the needs of composers like us... slow adoption of 64bit technology, multicore processing issues, etc. I'm a big fan of REAPER in terms of their development team. While it's not my main DAW (yet), it's cross-platform, 32/64, has absolutely the best multicore processing of any DAW, spectacular customization, and it's updated practically every few days.


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## stonzthro (Mar 2, 2011)

I hear ya loud and clear.

Any suggestions as to how to get this message across?


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## José Herring (Mar 2, 2011)

It makes sense. I was wondering how Mr. Clouser was maxing out his 8 core with Logic.

So in this case it wouldn't really matter how many cores you have with Logic. Bummer guys.

How about starting a group petition of some sort.


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## antoniopandrade (Mar 2, 2011)

Thankfully I've been learning how to work my way around DP lately... Even though I still love Logic at heart! Hope they notice this soon!


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## JT3_Jon (Mar 2, 2011)

mikebarry @ Wed Mar 02 said:


> ... I am quite satisfied with Logic in all regards (except we need track folders) ...



Just wanted to point out we DO have track folders. In fact, they are very good track folders in that they can act as both region folders and track folders. They are NOT hierarchal display folder ala DP, but they can be used in this way as well. 

Simply select the regions you want to put in a folder and choose "pack folder." All these regions complete with instruments / effects are put into a folder. You'll notice that the tracks are still left in your arrange page. If you dont want them there, just delete them. they do not effect whats in the folder. 

Note that folders do have their own bug (if you drag & drop data into them it does NOT duplicate the track like the manual says it should) but you can pack & unpack folders till your hearts content using key commends. Its a great way to not only keep your Logic sessions organized, but you can have completely different arrangements, complete with their own mix automation, within folders in a single logic song and solo/mute them as needed! You can even cut / paste, duplicate and move parts of folders to re-arrange entire songs / cues. Very powerful stuff! 

http://documentation.apple.com/en/logic ... tasks=true


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## mikebarry (Mar 2, 2011)

Yup I know that. I want the dp ones which are much more useful,


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## JT3_Jon (Mar 2, 2011)

I'm assuming you've seen this article? http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3161

Unfortunately this only works for playback.


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## mikebarry (Mar 2, 2011)

Iv been through it all believe me


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## JT3_Jon (Mar 2, 2011)

I dont want to get off track from the original intention of your post Mike (but you did include it  - you CAN use logics folders just like DP's, but instead of hitting the triangle to disclose its contents ala DP, you double click on the folder itself and go into it. Plus with Logic folders you get all the extra editing/mixing features that DP simply cannot do because they are display folders only.

Unless I'm missing something?


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## gsilbers (Mar 2, 2011)

def missing a lot with logics crappy folders. 

i love the way nuendo has it. you can see the contents of a folder inside your arrangement w/o leave in the main arragement. its just a big track. 
like PT is with 5.1 tracks. kinda. 
that was u can see and edit easily and not kinda see like in logic or go to another window to edit folders and have another sub system arragement that gets clunky and messy. 
it does work for some things but its basic at best. 
like if u wanted to have a folder for drums and wanted to edit the drum tracks to match the bass track or a guitar tracks that are also in a folder it just hard to see and make out. unless u quantized everything. 
but if u now the drums are good and guitars are good. then yes put them in folders and use have 2 tracks instead of 20. 

about the one core issue: 

i thought they fixed in the latest update. that said multi core functionality. 
was this only for playback as well. 
i haven upgraded yet.


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## JT3_Jon (Mar 2, 2011)

I see gsilbers. Good points. I think we have another feature request to bug Logic about!


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## IFM (Mar 2, 2011)

I've had this issue off and on but through this whole recent project I have gotten equal load distribution. I have groups of instruments set to aux channels but I do get multiple cores even when I'm on live with one. I do know where you guys are coming from and it almost makes me want to flip back to Cubase but I love Logic so much for what i do I don't feel like giving up one set of problems for another.
Chris

EDIT: No sooner had I said this did I have a one core spike multiple times...figures. :cry:


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## david robinson (Mar 2, 2011)

hi,
a reality is, we ain't dealing with ppl who care.
it's a huge organisation - an empire, even.
a multitude of ppl rely of apple 4 money.
(i use my shares in applwe to offset my Mac Pro's etc, it works.
we'd ALL have much more clout if we were even medium investors.
say about 5% would do it.
want to change stuff with an industry giant.
put your money where you mouth is.
best.
j.


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## gsilbers (Mar 2, 2011)

david robinson @ Wed Mar 02 said:


> hi,
> a reality is, we ain't dealing with ppl who care.
> it's a huge organisation - an empire, even.
> a multitude of ppl rely of apple 4 money.
> ...



i thinnk its more about target market an what makes more financial sense for them. 
as barry pointed out, we are not basement beat makers. 
if u see todays transcript of the ipad2 show, steve jobs mentions that most if not all tennagers use their computers to make music. which is part of the new garageband app for ipad2. 
therefore, apples main market, as well pro tools', is those teenagers and basement beat makers. thus imo, a main reason pro tools went native. 
and they bought maudio. 
that is where the demand is. 
most new products in the music making biz is all about portable, beat making, 
fast-fun making music. 
logic for apple is pretty much macbook PRO and macbook is garageband. 
for more "serious" musicians then get logic. 
in other words, garageband pro. 
does it suck, yes indeed. 
does it mean we should give up, no. 

sending request is a good idea. 

if anyone dares to place this same post in logicprohelp.com then even better, 
if it passes the 20 to 100 posts of logic loving beat makers who dont see an issue 
and/or havent run into this problem. 
ask david personally (virtually of course) maybe better as everyone there just agrees with him everytime 

and get tracktion to get the guys at apple checking their "Stats" and seeing changes.


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## david robinson (Mar 2, 2011)

the thin edge of the wedge, my dear.
j.


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## a.leung (Mar 3, 2011)

mikebarry @ Wed Mar 02 said:


> Apple is NOT aware that this is a problem. At all.... Just spoke to some senior people
> there.



They are aware of it. They are just not saying much. It is very sad. I am very worried about the future. I'm so glad I'm getting onto other sequencing programs. At least I have an out. But I will ultimately really miss Logic (but I'm holding out for a miracle while actively trying to do something about it in regards to Apple.)


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## Mike Connelly (Mar 3, 2011)

mikebarry @ Wed Mar 02 said:


> _Anything live runs off of only one core. _
> 
> What this really means:
> 
> ...



From what I can tell this is only true of tracks/auxes/busses fed by live inputs.

All busses/auxes/master channels with a live input run off one core. Any auxes/busses that are fed only by VI tracks that aren't active for midi recording are spread out over all cores.

For example, if you have all your sections sent to different reverbs, when you track in a violin part, the plugins on that track and any busses, auxes, and masters it's sent to will run on one core. Any plugins on busses/auxes that are fed by brass/WW/perc don't have anything live feeding them so they'll be spread out over multiple cores.

In most situations, people will probably only be playing one midi track at a time so the amount sent to one core often isn't that much. There are situations where tracking a VI can spike one core, if there are beefy plugins coming from that input, turning them off just for tracking would help. I also wonder if using multi instruments increases the CPU spike, since Logic may be setup to be ready to play any of the instruments in the multi even if only one of the midi tracks is enabled. I'll have to check that.

For mixdown, most users wouldn't need to have any tracks "live" in which case it's not an issue at all.

In your setup it sounds like the load is caused by those 24 tracks of adat input, especially if you have plugins on many of those tracks. I assume that's to bring in audio from a slave machine? If that's the case, it may be avoided by using something like VE Pro since it treats the slave machine like a plugin instead of a live audio source. Recording in those inputs as audio tracks should also work around the issue although obviously that's not as flexible and convenient.

This is definitely something Apple needs to improve, hopefully they can make live inputs use all cores. If that takes a while to fix, I'd love to see some user options as an interim solution, like key commands to temporarily disable all plugins or all sends, a preference for all plugs to automatically disable while tracking, and especially an option to be able to select tracks without having them automatically record enable. But in situations where there aren't tons of live inputs, Logic has been able to handle big sessions with no problems for me, doing a good job of distributing the load over all cores.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 3, 2011)

Great analysis Mike.


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## Patch666 (Mar 3, 2011)

Is there any chance one of the guys that really know what they are talking about could do a youtube vid that could be made aware to apple .. something that a lot of people could comment on and make public so that apple can see the error of their ways ..

I fear they are spending too much time faffing with making cool stuff like iPads etc and forgetting the workhorses and pros.


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## mikebarry (Mar 3, 2011)

I sunmitted a movie to apple already.

Ill make another one here.


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## guayalex (Mar 3, 2011)

Patch666 @ Thu Mar 03 said:


> I fear they are spending too much time faffing with making cool stuff like iPads etc and forgetting the workhorses and pros.


 o-[][]-o


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## Ashermusic (Mar 3, 2011)

I've spoken to a knowledgeable person on the Logic team about the issues Mike raised, which IMHO are very legitimate. I made some mistakes in the post so he said app:

We're certainly aware of the desirability of this feature, but that it is not a trivial task to provide such a functionality w/o potentially taking a serious hit or jeopardizing the integrity of audio. (i.e., risking dropped samples). I'd also remind people that such a system would necessarily rob cycles from the playback engine, so a user that wants to process incoming live audio streams would necessarily have to take a hit on the number of playback plug-ins that can be run simultaneously. In other words, you can't have your cake and eat it too, and I'm quite confident that Logic continues to outperform our competitors in regards to overall number of playback plugins that can utilized in a single project.

Also, there are now over 36k employees at Apple, so speaking to a "senior person at Apple" that may not be familiar with this issue is no sign that the we're somehow unaware or oblivious to the concerns of our Logic customers.


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## JT3_Jon (Mar 3, 2011)

Mike Connelly @ Thu Mar 03 said:


> If that takes a while to fix, I'd love to see some user options as an interim solution, like key commands to temporarily disable all plugins or all sends, a preference for all plugs to automatically disable while tracking, and especially an option to be able to select tracks without having them automatically record enable.



A work around I use is to track in "low latency mode" (activated via key command) which bypasses all latency inducing plugins, which seem to be the heavy hitters CPU wise anyway. Granted things don't sound the same when recording in low latency mode, which can effect your performance when tracking, but at least you dont get CPU spikes.

BTW, I don't buy this "cant have your cake and eat it too" response. If there was a way to manually manage which instruments / tracks / inputs go to which cores, with some tinkering you should be able to get a better balanced performance out of your rig than the current "one core spikes while the others hardly show any activity."


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## robh (Mar 3, 2011)

Hi Mike (Barry),

I had a close-up look at your video and it looks like pretty much everything is going to the one bus (Bus 10): Bus 1 & 2 to 10; 3 & 4 to 5 (which goes to 10); 5 & 6 & 7 to 10; 8 to 6 (to 10).

What would happen if you routed it like this: 1 & 2 to Stereo Out; 3 & 4 to 5 (to Stereo Out); 5 & 6 & 7 to Stereo Out; 8 to 6 (to Stereo Out) and put that bus 10 ozone plug on to Stereo Out instead (before the Gain plug-in)?

Rob


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## mikebarry (Mar 3, 2011)

Thanks for looking for a solution.

I only have 1-2 avialable, rest is ADAT ins.

I need to keep clear the 1-2 for click and for Production Tracks and reference tracks to be imported.

I appreciate it though.

I think the answer lies over at AVID.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 3, 2011)

Mike, what are those things on your menu bar to the right of the Kontakt memory server? Are they showing the temperature of your machine or something, and then what's to the right of that?


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## RiffWraith (Mar 3, 2011)

Being a PC/Cubase user, there's nothing that I can offer to this discussion, other than to say maybe have a look at this thread:

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... hp?t=30669

There may not be anything there; impossible for me to tell, but maybe there is.

Good luck!


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## Patch666 (Mar 4, 2011)

So whats everyone doing .. are you waiting until Logic sorts this out .. or are you moving DAWS? .. If so which one has the most appeal to us mac users with 8 core machines? I have been looking into Digital Performer ..


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## Ashermusic (Mar 4, 2011)

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## Mike Connelly (Mar 4, 2011)

Mike, I can see why you're upset that it's not working well for you, but I imagine your setup is pretty atypical for a Logic user. You are basically using Logic to do real time mixing with plugins of live inputs, I assume at a fairly low latency. That's a hard thing for any DAW to do, although if it could spread live tracks across all cores that would definitely help.

Your setup is the worst case scenario as far as logic goes, it looks like every single plugin in the session is being fed by a live track, which is why they're all going to one core. I never have this situation (not using a slave machine like this), I assume people using VE Pro wouldn't have this situation, it seems like it would only be an issue for the one case of bringing back audio from a slave machine as audio inputs. When you're seeing CPU use when Logic isn't playing back, that's not a case of it being "idle" since the computer is constantly applying all those plugins to the live inputs whether Logic is playing back or not.

Have you tried using something like VEPro as an alternative to audio over ADAT? Assuming it worked for you, I suspect it would probably eliminate the core problem. What is your buffer set to in Logic? And if you are having issues while tracking, does the low latency mode help at all?



Patch666 @ Fri Mar 04 said:


> So whats everyone doing .. are you waiting until Logic sorts this out .. or are you moving DAWS? .. If so which one has the most appeal to us mac users with 8 core machines? I have been looking into Digital Performer ..



It just isn't a problem for me since I'm playing back most of my stuff in the box which means tracks are only "live" (and on one core) when I'm tracking midi onto them. I do get the occasional single core spike when I'm tracking a really beefy instrument but that's pretty rare (and that can be helped to some extent by tracking in low latency mode when necessary). Any user who's not feeding in live audio inputs to the auxes isn't going to have this issue, at least not to this degree.



RiffWraith @ Thu Mar 03 said:


> Being a PC/Cubase user, there's nothing that I can offer to this discussion, other than to say maybe have a look at this thread:
> 
> http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... hp?t=30669



Apple has released a couple updates since then, now the 6/12 core machines are supported so that thread is out of date.


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## dcoscina (Mar 4, 2011)

Logic above all other DAWs I use (Cubase 6, DP7.22) seems the least CPU efficient when handling some heavy AU plugs. Whatever memory access benefits one gets from its 64 bit environment are lost due to the single core problem. 

DP is only 32 bit but handles CPU load much better- and VE PRO and Kontakt memory server allow for access of more than 3 gb. 

Cubase continually impresses me as far as the low CPU use for its VSTs. I don't get lower use on DP nor Logic nor PT9 (that's actually the worst- RTAS are terrible). 

That said, I still enjoy using Logic 9. I don't use it for film scoring and leave that to DP because it does more of what I want in less time- for me at least. I do hope Apple fixes this problem though. There's a lot to like about Logic.


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## JohnG (Mar 4, 2011)

One indirect benefit of DP remaining in 32 bit is that one has to come up with a means of getting at more RAM. I think that one or more of these work-arounds could also be used by Logic users to access more RAM and computing power.

Two methods I've used with DP that I assume could be used with Logic as well:

*1. Host VIs outside the DAW* -- VE Pro opened separate from DAW, using both 64 bit and 32 bit server mode. Using VE Pro in "server" mode allows audio to flow back into DP without yet another program (like Soundflower or JackOS) involved. 

This allows the user to get at his or her extra RAM and has the additional benefits of:

a) seems to spread CPU load out over many cores
b) when you change cues within a project, you don't necessarily have to reload all the samples (but there are some provisos to this so you have to know how to do it)

*2a. Hardware Loopback method 1* open programs like Kontakt or Play in standalone, or use Bidule as a host for PLAY and Kontakt. Use hardware loopback to get audio back into the DAW. In DP, getting the midi out is easy to other standalones and I assume Logic offers something similar. PLAY standalone seems to use all cores; I honestly haven't checked lately on Kontakt.

Drawbacks:

a) Bidule as a host does not automatically spread the load, so VE Pro (in non-"server" mode) might be a preferable substitute for some users. Not as flexible / creative as Bidule but spreading the load appears to be automatic.
b) Hardware loopback requires that one dedicate a fair amount of hardware to get more than four stereo pairs returning to the DAW.

*2b. Hardware Loopback method 2* -- Use VE Pro as a separate, standalone host, not necessarily in server mode, but still use hardware loopback for audio. I assume, however, that while this makes VE Pro less invasive than its "server" mode, one may lose other benefits, such as automatic latency compensation.


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## midphase (Mar 4, 2011)

dcoscina @ Fri Mar 04 said:


> Logic above all other DAWs I use (Cubase 6, DP7.22) seems the least CPU efficient when handling some heavy AU plugs. Whatever memory access benefits one gets from its 64 bit environment are lost due to the single core problem.



I vehemently disagree. You can fault Logic for many things, but being the least CPU efficient ain't one of them.

DP is a resource hog (I don't know about Cubase), and Pro Tools is insanely poor at handling VI's efficiently (mostly due to the RTAS architecture).

The only DAW which probably holds up its own against Logic in CPU efficiency is Reaper...but while it's good for some things, it's bad for others.

This 1 CPU spike thing is a non-issue for me, I ran into RAM and Drive throughput issues way before I run into CPU issues.


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## mikebarry (Mar 4, 2011)

I think the point remains:

this computer cost 5800$

and it cannot handle 24 inputs with about 10 plug ins.

That is unacceptable.


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## Mike Connelly (Mar 4, 2011)

Mike, what is your Logic buffer set to? Does raising it help any? Does using the low latency mode for tracking make any difference?

And would VEP be an alternative way to use a slave machine or is there something preventing that from working?


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## mikebarry (Mar 4, 2011)

I have VE Pro, but nothing works better then the ADAT and bidule for me.

Bidule is just so remarkably transparent and I get to manually assign the cores. I never drop a voice, its just so well done.

PS, I moved the buffer around from 128 to 512, no change.

It's just a critical oversight with Apple.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 4, 2011)

I've used Logic 8 but I've been on Cubase 5 for a while now. I was recently having a similar experience though. A few plug ins and noticeable cpu usage and then crashes. I finally switched to 10.6 and I'll soon jump over to C6 but I'm trying to stay away from plugins until the point that I absolutely need them and over just keeping the host as a host until mix time. 

Oh and I'm on an '08 quad or 2 dual core, whatever. No idea how Cubase handles these cores though. Any way to see that?


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## IFM (Mar 4, 2011)

The trouble with DP and Cubase is that they are always running live so I can't nearly get as much running on them as I can in Logic despite the 1 core thing so I agree with Kays on this one.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 4, 2011)

Dragonwind @ Fri Mar 04 said:


> The trouble with DP and Cubase is that they are always running live so I can't nearly get as much running on them as I can in Logic despite the 1 core thing so I agree with Kays on this one.



What do you mean by 'running live'?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 4, 2011)

Take a look at the video on the first page, gmer.

I still think that Mike can get his template to work by shuffling things around. How about putting all those Altiverbs in VE Pro busses, for example?


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## IFM (Mar 4, 2011)

givemenoughrope @ Fri Mar 04 said:


> Dragonwind @ Fri Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> > The trouble with DP and Cubase is that they are always running live so I can't nearly get as much running on them as I can in Logic despite the 1 core thing so I agree with Kays on this one.
> ...



Logic runs all non armed tracks at a 1024k buffer and armed (Live) tracks at whatever buffer you have set in the audio preferences. DP and Cubase don't do this, although DP does have a sort of look ahead for plug in processing.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 4, 2011)

Got it. Thanks!

Good luck to you Logic guys. Maybe if this gets fixed I'll look at it again.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 4, 2011)

Come on. Logic is used by hundreds of thousands of people around the world every day, and that includes all kinds of huge major projects. It didn't suddenly become unusable!


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## mikebarry (Mar 4, 2011)

Well I think the problem with me is:


I was always having core overload but I assumed I was just overloading the computer with too much VST power.

I just purchased a 2nd mac pro to remedy this, but I've come to overload on the other end of the spectrum.

Sure logic works fine for a lot of people, but I know alot of the guys here are using TDM pro tools to record and monitor, so audio in logic is not being put at all to the test.

Now I am considering an HD rig for this function.

Other option is sending my "tweaked" audio levels, with no plug ins back to the other computer and then sending them back again as a stereo pair with all plug ins.

I just wonder if going through ADAT 3 times is going to leave me serious delay.
Anyone have thoughts on this?


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## ceam (Mar 4, 2011)

Mike,

Have you tried bringing in the adat inputs to audio channels instead of auxes? Or routing the busses to audio channels? You can then turn on the input monitoring icon and monitor that way. Not sure if it would help though since it is still basically "live". 


Pete


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## Colin O'Malley (Mar 4, 2011)

Mike, 

I have a similar setup to what you're running. I have 48 ADAT ins piping into an 8 core mac, and share many of your frustrations. It's clear that everything on my "live" inputs is going to 1 core. I've gone through various stages of flirting with leaving Logic. I tried Cubase on my mac for a while. Another composer I work for uses a monster TDM system for everything. I tested that as well. Kontakt no likee. My conclusion is that Logic is still the best answer on the mac for monster templates (edit: I have never tried DP) , in spite of my current frustrations in some areas. The only system that I think is out performing Logic for my particular type of template is Cubase on a PC (NOT a Mac). At least that's the way it seems this month. I think basically we're right on the bleeding edge of having all this stuff work, but not quite there for huge templates. Anyway, just sell your mac and pick up a PC  

Here is one thing I've been meaning to try that MIGHT help. If it works all I ask is that you send me everything Cinesamples has ever done or ever will do....  

Instead of creating input objects in the environment for getting your 24 "live" ADAT signals into Logic, create audio tracks with the I/O plugin inserted. Once you point the I/O to your adat stuff the workflow will be identical (except your inputs will show up under audio tracks in the adaptive mixer). My theory is that using the I/O plugin will trick Logic into distributing things more evenly over the multiple cores. If you have the audio tracks in your arrange window you can also change the order to organize things differently in your mixer (which we can't really seem to do otherwise in Logic). 

Good luck!

Colin


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## José Herring (Mar 4, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Mar 04 said:


> Come on. Logic is used by hundreds of thousands of people around the world every day, and that includes all kinds of huge major projects. It didn't suddenly become unusable!



This is to some extent true, but at the same time things change rapidly. Now alot of guys are changing their work flow to accommodate new instruments, software and ways of working. And, if the program can't handle it then technology then becomes obsolete very quickly.

I think this is a huge oversight on Logic's part. I just recently switched over to a 64bit system running VEPro in 64bit. I run over 40 audio channels over lan in one instance of VEPro into Cubase. Utilizing over 24 (x16) midi ins. I've stressed tested this like crazy and can't get my CPU meters over 25%. It handles this so scarily good that 3 out of my 8 cores (4 actual, 4 virtual) remained parked no matter what I do. It has totally revolutionized my way of working. I'm actually now having fun with this stuff.

So as ways of working with this stuff advances, little quirks like the ones discussed here, those things are maddening.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 4, 2011)

No question, Jose, and I'm not trying to toss off the issue as some obscure thing that doesn't matter. I'm just saying that writing off a tremendous program with decades of full-time work on it just because it doesn't like having 24 live ADAT inputs in addition to a huge V.I. set-up seems a little OTT.

By the way, you're running 40 channels of VE Pro. That's quite different from having live 24 ADAT inputs, which Logic can't differentiate from 24 mics going in. VE Pro is on a Software Instrument track, which is handled differently.

And +1 to what Colin is saying about I/O plug-ins on Software Instrument tracks instead of using Audio tracks in Input mode. That's a more elegant way of setting it up even if it doesn't solve the problem (and I bet it will).

But I still think that running some of the Altiverb predelays inside VE Pro will help a lot.


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## mikebarry (Mar 4, 2011)

Hey Colin.


I tried your brilliant idea and although my heart fluttered at first glance, it appears its the same procedure.


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## mikebarry (Mar 4, 2011)

And a similar test in 64 bit mode, using 64 bit plug ins.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 4, 2011)

Oh well.

What about using Nodes to push the processing onto another Mac?


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## Colin O'Malley (Mar 4, 2011)

Mike, 

Dagnabit! Thanks for trying. The only other thing I can think of is go back to your regular setup with 24 ADAT inputs in Logic. Do not insert any plugins on the inputs. Bus all the outputs of all of your ADAT inputs to stereo AUXs and add all your plugs on AUX's. You'll still hit one core with all your inputs coming in, but maybe it will spread the plugins across the cores? All my inputs by themselves (no plugs) usually only use about half the single core. 

Colin


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## midphase (Mar 4, 2011)

Where's Jay when you need him?


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## mikebarry (Mar 4, 2011)

And lastly using audio tracks with "input" enabling.


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## midphase (Mar 4, 2011)

mikebarry @ Fri Mar 04 said:


> And a similar test in 64 bit mode, using 64 bit plug ins.




Can you explain this screen shot to me? Is this Logic Pro or something else?


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## mikebarry (Mar 4, 2011)

It's just plain old logic, I found a gui mod i tried.


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## midphase (Mar 5, 2011)

Damn...I was hoping you'd tell me that you're a beta tester for Logic 10.


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## david robinson (Mar 5, 2011)

mikebarry @ Fri Mar 04 said:


> And lastly using audio tracks with "input" enabling.



hi,
is this what is called a monopoly?

like father - like son.
j.


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## IFM (Mar 5, 2011)

Have you compared this to what's actually happening on the CPU? Load up Activity Monitor and look. I find Logic's reporting more like just and audio stream and not what is actually happening.


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## jlb (Mar 5, 2011)

Apple are just focusing on where their profit margin is, which is making ipads thinner, and selling millions of them. If I had spent $5000 on a machine and it behaved like this I would be so pissed off I would dump logic. What matters is your music, if the tool to create it is this lacking (essentially a single core computer), it has to go.

Having said that I am sticking with Logic, I don't use it this way and probably never will. I don't think they can ever make it all things to all people, to be fair to them

jlb


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## IFM (Mar 5, 2011)

Here is a screen shot. I opened four audio tracks with some heavy live guitar processing. Here is a screen shot of what is happening. As you see the CPUs are split evenly (although they shift around), but Logic is reporting at over 50% and '1-core'. This isn't accurate as it certainly isn't being processed by only one CPU. What seems to be happening is Logic is reporting what you are able to run in real time. If we really wanted to do some tests we could take a single AU plugin and run it at the same buffer across Logic, DP, and Cubase running at idle and see where we're at.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s288 ... 0909AM.png


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## Colin O'Malley (Mar 5, 2011)

Hmmmm, that is very interesting. I'll have to try that here.

Colin


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## Ashermusic (Mar 5, 2011)

midphase @ Fri Mar 04 said:


> Where's Jay when you need him?



Here, but Mike Connelly has said most of what I would say.
A few points:

1. Don't take as gospel what you see in the System Performance Meter. In general, Logic's metering is its weakest point IMHO.

2. As the Apple guy implied, the Logic developers have optimized Logic for Software Instrument and plug-in playback, which it traditionally has been the best in the industry at. Ask Craig and Bruce Miller why they switched from DP to Logic several years ago. (I have not sat down with newer versions of either DP or Cubase for a so I cannot say for certain that it is still so.)

3. Anything armed in Logic's track list does go to 1 core and the aux and bus and input assignment decisions can be tough to work out to avoid them also going to 1 core when they are "live". That said, the only times I have had a big problem with core spiking on my now dated computer has been Hollywood Strings and the solution was to raise the buffer. I will still see a core spike but it does not stop me from working and as soon as I choose an audio track in the track list and hit play, the spike goes away and core distribution becomes more even. Most users I see who are having big core spike issues are using big multi-timbral instances and as we have often discussed, Logic is not multi-timbral friendly and I doubt that will change.

Finally, Mike Barry is a guy who is really pushing the envelope of what is possible, even more so than the average working composer who uses this stuff. Now his points are certainly valid and I hope Apple addresses them but even among heavy duty users there are not a lot attempting this much. and when they do, I don't want it to be at the price of all the other things that make Logic what it is.

Once again, this is not to make light of Mike's points but somehow a guy like Sean Callery composed every week for "24", which IMHO may be the best scored dramatic episodic series in recent TV history, using a lot of sampled instruments with Logic Pro.


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## midphase (Mar 5, 2011)

jlb @ Sat Mar 05 said:


> Apple are just focusing on where their profit margin is, which is making ipads thinner, and selling millions of them. If I had spent $5000 on a machine and it behaved like this I would be so pissed off I would dump logic. What matters is your music, if the tool to create it is this lacking (essentially a single core computer), it has to go.
> 
> Having said that I am sticking with Logic, I don't use it this way and probably never will. I don't think they can ever make it all things to all people, to be fair to them
> 
> jlb



Yeah, I was gonna say...this thing that Mike is experiencing is not something that most users are dealing with.

Even then, I'm not sure I would ever purchase the top of the line Mac Pro...doesn't make much sense to me since CPU is not even remotely an issue (to the point where I have no real motivation to update my "aging" 4-core 1st gen Mac Pro).

Today, if I was to update my system, I would probably go with the 8-core system and rather put money towards the RAM and possibly a couple of SSD drives. I don't think going 12 core would really buy me a whole lot more.

But yeah, I get the feeling Mike is running in such a way that is causing this weird behavior...perhaps his solution might be to rethink the way his template works?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 5, 2011)

To spell it out clearly (because this is already spreading to at least one other thread, and people are misunderstanding the problem):

The reason Mike is running into this problem is because he is feeding 24 live ADAT inputs into Logic. (Not because he isn't scoring any huge TV shows.  )

VE Pro does not have the same issue, because it isn't a live input - the plug-in is processed like any other Software Instrument. That's how it's able to do an offline bounce - although I have no doubt that those super-freaks in Austria are fully aware of how the processing is divided too.


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## mikebarry (Mar 5, 2011)

it's so easy to anticipate your responses Jay.


Anyway back on topic.....

I don't feel I am asking too much of my computer at this point. As always looking at a work around. Its looking like a little pro tools action.


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## José Herring (Mar 5, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Mar 05 said:


> To spell it out clearly (because this is already spreading to at least one other thread, and people are misunderstanding the problem):
> 
> The reason Mike is running into this problem is because he is feeding 24 live ADAT inputs into Logic. (Not because he isn't scoring any huge TV shows.  )
> 
> VE Pro does not have the same issue, because it isn't a live input - the plug-in is processed like any other Software Instrument. That's how it's able to do an offline bounce - although I have no doubt that those super-freaks in Austria are fully aware of how the processing is divided too.



I understand the difference, but there's another poster using VEPro running into the exact same problem which is curious. Of course he later posted that he's using onboard audio, so it's a little tough to take him seriously. :lol:


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## Mike Greene (Mar 5, 2011)

Colin O'Malley @ Sat Mar 05 said:


> If you end upmusing TDM hardware as a front end for Logic (instead of Pro Tools staight up) please let us know what you think. I've always been very curious about that particular setup.


That's how I work. It's pretty nice in that the number of tracks and effects is almost unlimited at really low latency, but there are negatives. The most obvious being cost, not only for the HD card(s) and interface(s), but also because most plugins are more expensive when they're TDM.

The bigger thing that worries me is that Logic stopped supporting PT beyond 8.0.1. Other than the DAE (Digidesign Audio Engine, assuming it's even called that anymore,) I'm not sure how much that matters. But I suppose there could be a problem if you run PT 9. I haven't tested it to see.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 5, 2011)

IMHO, you are hitching your workflow to two companies who no longer have an incentive to make it work. Avid has already announced that with PT 9 they no longer support Logic or DP as front ends for TDM and with Logic 9 the whole ESB/DAE business is an unreliable thing for some users.

If you already have spent the money and have it , as Mike has, and are not intent on staying with the latest and greatest well then, fine, but if you are not there, it just seems to me to be like building your house on shifting sands.


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## mikebarry (Mar 5, 2011)

No i am talking of using a pro tools dedicated rig - I know lots of guys do this success.


The chain being:

Logic (midi only) ----> triggering Slave(s) for samples -------> all slaves going to Pro tools for monitoring, FX and Printing

This takes advantage of the Logic at its best (midi only is rock solid now).

Logic -----> Bidule (like a rock) ------> Pro Tools (the perennial leader in audio)


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## JohnG (Mar 5, 2011)

Bidule is extremely impressive. It is brilliant even. That said, I have found it awkward, Mike, for the multiprocessor load spreading that is partly the reason for this thread.

Still, I see your point and am eventually heading that way as well (had a false start already but ran into a hiccough). Bypass the audio return into Logic (or any other DAW) and do all your audio processing and what-not in PT.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 5, 2011)

> I understand the difference, but there's another poster using VEPro running into the exact same problem which is curious. Of course he later posted that he's using onboard audio, so it's a little tough to take him seriously.



Actually there are two scenarios that can get you into trouble: using lots of live inputs as Mike is, and using 53 busses or whatever it was the other fellow was doing. Logic processes inputs and busses on one core.

The reason for my post is not to apologize for this issue, which is real, but to explain that it's not like Logic is total crap because of it. Some people are starting to get that impression, and it's just nuts.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 5, 2011)

http://www.avid.com/static/resources/us ... atency.png

Interesting link.

There's already a video of an Avid PT interface that uses Thunderbolt floating around the net (it was an Intel demonstration), however, but this is still a good comparison.


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## robh (Mar 5, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Sat Mar 05 said:


> midphase @ Fri Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Where's Jay when you need him?
> ...


 I don't know about that anymore, Jay. The other day, just for curiosity, I ran the "EvanLogicMultiCoreBenchmark" test just to see how my 6-core was doing in comparison to my old Dual 2.7 G5. When I finally got the core overload message, Logic's CPU meters were peaked out, but Activity monitor showed only 50-60%. I then noticed the "Update Frequency" of the activity Monitor was set to "Normal" (which means every 2 seconds), so I changed it to "very often" (which is every 0.5 seconds). the meters then showed 60%-70%. So, I wonder if it's a function of how frequent Logic's meters update compared to the Activity Monitor?

Rob


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## mikebarry (Mar 5, 2011)

> My suggestion is that we keep this to one thread, because so far at least three people are misunderstanding the issue with how Logic allocates its processing.
> 
> As I wrote in the other one: Mike B is running into problems because he is bringing 24 live ADAT inputs into Logic. If you don't do that you won't have the same problem.



Nick, I don't think should be in reference to me.

I really do have a good understanding of how to maximize performance of your computer and logic. I've changed my rig style around so many times to adapt to the technology, the thing is you always need a work around. I've done VE Pro, Rewire with bidule, biduƒõ   Oµ ³   ÓûZ   O¶ ³   Ô²}   O· ³   ÕnU   O¸ ³   ÖM9   O¹ ³   ×   Oº ³   ×ÍØ   O» ³   ØzÆ   O¼ ³   Ù5ý   O½ ³   ÚT   O¾ ³   ÚÓ?   O¿ ³   Û˜G   OÀ ³   Ü}ý   OÁ ³   ÝVB   OÂ ³   Þ=   OÃ ³   Þå}   OÄ ³   ß‹Ò   OÅ ³   à3Œ   OÆ ³   àÀÿ   OÇ ³   áI(   OÈ ³   áü]   OÉ ³   â¡   OÊ ³   ãL~   OË ³   ä8   OÌ ³   åŽ   OÍ ³   åÛ8   OÎ ³   æ   OÏ ³   çbï   OÐ ³   è9$   OÑ ³   èì   OÒ ³   éÂ°   OÓ ³   êJw   OÔ ³   ë
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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 5, 2011)

Mike, it's not in reference to you at all. Sorry if it sounded that way. I certainly don't mean to say that you don't know what you're doing or that your set-up is outlandish, nor am I trying to minimize the problem.

What I posted is only because a few people who don't know better are starting to get the impression that Logic is total shite due to this one issue. Most people will never encounter it, after all, myself included.


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## mikebarry (Mar 6, 2011)

Cool Nick - sall good. Believe I would rather not be complaining but I think a little public attention to this is good for all of us.

Now let me continue on this thread:

I want to first attach a screen grab of my core monitor courtesy of Istat menus:

Here is the core monitor using Handbrake to rip a movie notice all the cores moving.


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## mikebarry (Mar 6, 2011)

Now a small cue I did in logic playing in 32 bit mode using only internal instruments:

and then a 64 bit mode of same file:

What i don't get is why only half my cores are firing:


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## Ashermusic (Mar 6, 2011)

mikebarry @ Sun Mar 06 said:


> Now a small cue I did in logic playing in 32 bit mode using only internal instruments:
> 
> and then a 64 bit mode of same file:
> 
> What i don't get is why only half my cores are firing:



How many software instruments is "small", Mike? If it is less than the number of cores, i.e. 4, then obviously it will not use all 8 cores.

I just did a quick test. I have a quad core and if I just load Omnisphere and Trilian parts, it is using 2 cores. I add an EVB3 part and now it is using 3. I add an EVP 88 part and it is using all 4.

Mike, I know you think I try to make light of your issues to defend Logic but I am not, They are real, they are important for complex setups like yours, and I know there are other issues as well and I too would like them addressed. I just think, as Nick obviously does, that it is worth reminding people that there is no perfect DAW for doing things as demanding as you and Colin are doing.

In recent years I have helped perhaps a dozen people transition from their former DAW to Logic and only 1 has switched back. I am sure there are DP guys, Cubase guys,PT guys, etc who can say the same.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 6, 2011)

mikebarry @ Sat Mar 05 said:


> No i am talking of using a pro tools dedicated rig - I know lots of guys do this success.
> 
> 
> The chain being:
> ...



That is certainly sound thinking Mike and I too know a lot of guys doing this successfully. Personally I would swap out Bidule for VE Pro, but the idea is the same.

In all candor if I were hired to do a well paid weekly TV series, I might do that myself.


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## rgames (Mar 6, 2011)

mikebarry @ Sun Mar 06 said:


> What i don't get is why only half my cores are firing:



To add to Jay's point - usually it's best to use the fewest number of processors so long as no single one is overloaded, so maybe that's the reason. There's computational overhead associated with distributed processing, so, for each thread (which is probably each VI), two processors at 1/2 load generally are less efficient than one processor at full load. I'm sure Logic and the Mac OS account for that fact.

I haven't followed this thread closely but I do find it odd that handling the audio takes so much processor power. Even if it is handled by only one core, seems like that should be *way* more than enough: 24 channels at 24/44.1 is only about 6.5 MB/s. Given that even a single processor can handle memory bandwidth 1000 times that, this bandwidth requirement is almost nothing. Odd...

rgames


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## rgames (Mar 6, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Sun Mar 06 said:


> mikebarry @ Sat Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> > No i am talking of using a pro tools dedicated rig - I know lots of guys do this success.
> ...



I guess I'm not clear on the advantage if you're mostly (or fully) virtual. Sure, if you're adding MIDI-based instruments over live tracks, then it makes sense. But what advantage is there to this setup if 95% of your tracks are from VI's?

rgames


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## jlb (Mar 6, 2011)

mikebarry @ Sun Mar 06 said:


> Now a small cue I did in logic playing in 32 bit mode using only internal instruments:
> 
> and then a 64 bit mode of same file:
> 
> What i don't get is why only half my cores are firing:



I don't know if you know this Mike but you have to tell Logic to use all 16 threads, I ran into this. Mine was using only 8 until I changed it. There is a setting which is set to 'Automatic', but you can put a figure in, up to a maximum of 16 for the amount of threads it uses.

Just found it, it is in preferences/audio/devices/core audio/processing threads

jlb


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## mikebarry (Mar 6, 2011)

Yup I am aware of that setting - I have it set to 16


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## mikebarry (Mar 6, 2011)

I guess my point is, i have never seen the "virtual" cores move, ever.

PS Istatmenus, a really handy tool - you should all get it. Its under 20 bucks.


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## jlb (Mar 6, 2011)

I loaded one of the demo songs by the Killers and all 16 cores are moving?

jlb


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## mikebarry (Mar 6, 2011)

interesting.

Have you tried with istatmenus?

I think this is the most reliable core reader.

Anyway, if anyone has other info to contribute in the core debate I am all ears.


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## Mike Connelly (Mar 7, 2011)

So when hosting instruments on a slave machine with VEP, does it treat those as "live" inputs or just like any other plugin? Do they go to one core or are they distributed on the host mac, and do auxes/busses fed by them go to all cores or just one?



Dragonwind @ Sat Mar 05 said:


> Here is a screen shot. I opened four audio tracks with some heavy live guitar processing. Here is a screen shot of what is happening. As you see the CPUs are split evenly (although they shift around), but Logic is reporting at over 50% and '1-core'. This isn't accurate as it certainly isn't being processed by only one CPU. What seems to be happening is Logic is reporting what you are able to run in real time. If we really wanted to do some tests we could take a single AU plugin and run it at the same buffer across Logic, DP, and Cubase running at idle and see where we're at.
> 
> http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s288 ... 0909AM.png



Good catch. I tested again, and while Logic shows all live inputs being processed on one core, Activity Monitor still shows processing being spread over eight cores. Looks like the core distribution is fine and the problem is that Logic has lousy CPU meters (which was common knowledge already).

Looks like Logic probably isn't spiking one core. Processing a live input just takes more CPU power than other processing, and that's true of any sequencer on any computer - it's just a more demanding task to do real time processing at a low latency than being able to buffer further ahead. Other sequencers may not show a difference in performance between live and nonlive tracks, but I suspect it may be not because live tracks are handled as well as nonlive, but because nonlive tracks are handled as badly as live.



midphase @ Sat Mar 05 said:


> But yeah, I get the feeling Mike is running in such a way that is causing this weird behavior...perhaps his solution might be to rethink the way his template works?



Exactly what I've been thinking all along. I'm extremely happy with the performance I'm getting on my mac now, but I've spent a fair amount of time researching and testing and comparing and then setup my workflow to match the strengths and weaknesses of the software and hardware. In a perfect world that wouldn't be necessary and any workflow would work fine, but in an imperfect world I'd rather work within the limitations of the technology and get the good results.



mikebarry @ Sat Mar 05 said:


> As always looking at a work around. Its looking like a little pro tools action.



Sorry to beat a dead horse, but what about VEP didn't work well enough for you? When you hosted the instruments on a slave machine via VEP and then applied plugins on the mac, was the mac processing everything on one core or was it distributed out?

Also, on the sessions that are giving you a problem, when you look in Activity Monitor is it showing one core spiking (like the Logic CPU meter) or is the load spread out?



mikebarry @ Sat Mar 05 said:


> Running 24 inputs is really nothing compared to what a lot of guys are doing. Colin is doing twice what I do in Logic. Imagine recording a drum kit with a band live, thats 24 channels easy. Is that really too much to ask? Imagine recording a full orchestra with 30-40 stereo ins.



The problem isn't the number of inputs or the number of tracks recording. The problem is running out of CPU power on _plugins_ being fed by live tracks. Logic can record plenty of tracks no problem as long as there isn't a ton of plugin processing being applied during recording (and I assume that's true of most if not all native solutions). If you do need to record lots of tracks at low latency AND have all the plugins going during record then you probably do need PT TDM.


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