# What do you think about Hans' Man of Steel?



## Frankly-h (Jun 12, 2013)

Hi,
Sorry if this is out of place, but I found no better place to discuss it.
So what do you think of the score?

I'd love to know your opinions guys.


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## Graham Keitch (Jun 12, 2013)

Music is highly subjective - some will agree with you while others won't. There are some wonderful composers out there for you to enjoy so I simply wouldn't get hung up on this one particular guy. Give Vaughan Williams, Walton, Holst and others a listen if you want to expand your musical experience. You may dislike what you hear - then again, you may never want to listen to HZ again!

Graham


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## Ed (Jun 12, 2013)

Whenever people criticise Hans I always like to know the context is. What music of his do you like? Did you like Da Vinci Code? Batman? Last Samurai? etc?


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## Folmann (Jun 12, 2013)

Man Of Steel will become a Knight of Gold at the 86th Academy Awards. It is an evolution of the fanfare and one of the most vibrant and memorable scores in recent years. A neoclassical master piece.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 12, 2013)

*WARNING*

Troels' personal site has been hacked. *DO NOT *click the link to his personal site. I just sent him a pm; if anyone has his phone #, give him a call.


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## Frankly-h (Jun 12, 2013)

Ed @ Wed Jun 12 said:


> Whenever people criticise Hans I always like to know the context is. What music of his do you like? Did you like Da Vinci Code? Batman? Last Samurai? etc?



Mostly the older ones, like Spanglish, As Good As It Gets, King Arthur, The Last Samurai, The Da Vinci Code's main theme. (When it came out it was original compared to what I'd heard before in the OST department)


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## rpaillot (Jun 12, 2013)

I really like that score 

I'm in love with "goodbye my son" track , so simple but so touching .
Also some tracks are pretty epic ( flight for instance)
There are some great themes in that score

Not to mention the thunder percussions ...


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## MacQ (Jun 12, 2013)

That answer over on reddit about keeping things simple to reach the heart, is dead on. Hans is a brilliant producer who leads an extremely talented team, time and again serving picture and drama in the best possible way.

I've said it before, but THAT's why I envy him ... being at the musical helm of a film on this scale, with the top people all giving their best efforts, and with a celebrity to call any musician anywhere in the world for collaboration. I'm a real nerd for jamming out with talented people and pushing ideas to the next level (sometimes to a level that seems downright silly on paper!) 

But all of that comes with the crushing panic of locked-in-stone orchestra dates and the constancy of public criticism and demand -- and the oft-repeated intimation that he's somehow a talentless hack or a con-man par excellence. And yet Hans seems to go about business with humility, an effusive passion, and a wry wink in his eye. 

How do you do it, Hans!?

Oh, and I love his music _because_ of its simplicity. Its deceiving simplicity. The kind you find stuck in your head 3 days later. All the while married to a ruthless rhythmic and production sensibility that really MOVES people. Great aesthetic taste, great hooks, great sounds, great tracks. And better films because of it.

I'm with Troels here. Man of Steel ... all involved with that score should be very proud!


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## Frankly-h (Jun 12, 2013)

MacQ @ Wed Jun 12 said:


> That answer over on reddit about keeping things simple to reach the heart, is dead on. Hans is a brilliant producer who leads an extremely talented team, time and again serving picture and drama in the best possible way.
> 
> I've said it before, but THAT's why I envy him ... being at the musical helm of a film on this scale, with the top people all giving their best efforts, and with a celebrity to call any musician anywhere in the world for collaboration. I'm a real nerd for jamming out with talented people and pushing ideas to the next level (sometimes to a level that seems downright silly on paper!)
> 
> ...



I think Troels was being sarcastic buddy.


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## Greg (Jun 12, 2013)

Why not actually see the movie before formulating such an opinion...?...


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 12, 2013)

Greg @ Wed Jun 12 said:


> Why not actually see the movie before formulating such an opinion...?...



Because many people here still do not get it that a score's primary purpose is to serve the picture.


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## dgburns (Jun 12, 2013)

if Troels is being sarcastic,I have a new found admiration for his sense of humour!

Ok,so to be fair I have not seen it,but my gut tells me Hans walks off with the hardware come Oscar night.

why so critical of the score?it's just music anyway.only got twelve notes to fart around with...bound to stumble on the same thing every once in a while!may as well get paid while your at it


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## Arbee (Jun 12, 2013)

Knowing that Hans frequents this forum, is the OP perhaps attempting to be deliberately provocative with this post? If not, please accept my apologies for thinking this. If so, then I feel sorry for you that other's success disturbs you so much. In any case, I hope you've seen the movie for context before forming this view.


.


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## woodsdenis (Jun 13, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> Greg @ Wed Jun 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Why not actually see the movie before formulating such an opinion...?...
> ...



Thank god someone here understands what a movie score really is. Well said Jay. 
The musical elitism on here sometimes is very sad and petty.


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## germancomponist (Jun 13, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> Greg @ Wed Jun 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Why not actually see the movie before formulating such an opinion...?...
> ...



+1

Film music isn't concert music. You can play only one note for one minute or longer and it can work so very well with the picture. ...


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## lux (Jun 13, 2013)

For what it worths, I dont consider much tasteful to launch a like-or-not poll about an artistic production in the presence of the author.

While he's of course probably the world's most renowned and played film composer of our times, I think its more than fair to consider him just like one of us when he writes and reads here. 

Despite the fact I'm quite sure he can't care less of that, I would never start such a poll about an artistic release of one of my friends and colleagues here. Maybe its just me.


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## Frankly-h (Jun 13, 2013)

I think this is causing too much confusion.
I'm talking about the score as an independent listening experience.
@Jay Yes, I understand that, but with all the talent and resources that Hans has I always expect more than just a score that works.
@Arbee When on earth did I say that his success disturbs me?! I just spoke about the score in musical terms and nothing else.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I was not trying to be provocative or offensive in any way.
I've asked the admin to remove the post.


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## IvanP (Jun 13, 2013)

lux @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> For what it worths, I dont consider much tasteful to launch a like-or-not poll about an artistic production in the presence of the author.
> 
> While he's of course probably the world's most renowned and played film composer of our times, I think its more than fair to consider him just like one of us when he writes and reads here.
> 
> Despite the fact I'm quite sure he can't care less of that, I would never start such a poll about an artistic release of one of my friends and colleagues here. Maybe its just me.



+1


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## rpaillot (Jun 13, 2013)

germancomponist @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jun 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Greg @ Wed Jun 12 said:
> ...




Sorry but I'm not sure Hans and film composers here would agree with that. 
With such sentences, you're reducing the important role of film-music to just some "buried in the mix" wallpaper music that nobody cares.

Yes you can score a movie with only some omnisphere pads, and it would work and follow what's onscreen perfectly. But making a score memorable, original, is another game! For me MOS is such a score.

As most of us here are aspiring film composers , we should have that goal in mind when scoring movies, and not just doing a technical job of supporting the picture.


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## germancomponist (Jun 13, 2013)

rpaillot @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> Sorry but I'm not sure Hans and film composers here would agree with that.
> With such sentences, you're reducing the important role of film-music to just some "buried in the mix" wallpaper music that nobody cares.
> 
> Yes you can score a movie with only some omnisphere pads, and it would work and follow what's onscreen perfectly. But making a score memorable, original, is another game! For me MOS is such a score.
> ...



My "one note" thing was an example to underline that film music is not concert music. In no word, not here or elsewhere, I ever said that it is cool to score a movie with only some omnisphere pads! Writing film music is much much more than doing a technical job of supporting the picture, no question! And, Han's "Man of steel" music is absolutely great! o/~


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## mk282 (Jun 13, 2013)

Yes, it's definitely not the same memorable movie score experience like Gladiator was, for example.


I just saw Gatsby yesterday, and the main motif of the score is really beautiful and well done. Just four notes.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 13, 2013)

Frankly-h @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> @Jay Yes, I understand that, but with all the talent and resources that Hans has I always expect more than just a score that work.



What you don't apparently understand is that some films just do not lend themselves to that and some directors do not want it.

Experienced film composers almost never make that kind of criticism because they have "been there, done that."It is almost always coming from the wannabees.


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## Frankly-h (Jun 13, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> Frankly-h @ Thu Jun 13 said:
> 
> 
> > @Jay Yes, I understand that, but with all the talent and resources that Hans has I always expect more than just a score that work.
> ...



I don't think this is the case in this particular movie.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 13, 2013)

Frankly-h @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jun 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Frankly-h @ Thu Jun 13 said:
> ...



So you not only saw the movie but discussed the score with the director as well?


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## Frankly-h (Jun 13, 2013)

@Jay
 Why do you mock me man?
Do you really think that Hans will settle for something that just works? I'm not trying to prove you wrong, or say in anyway that I know something that you don't. I hope that you're not offended.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 13, 2013)

Frankly-h @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> @Jay
> Why do you mock me man?
> Do you really think that Hans will settle for something that just works? I'm not trying to prove you wrong, or say in anyway that I know something that you don't. I hope that you're not offended.



I am not offended at all and please do not take anything I write personally.

I am trying to forcefully make the following points:

a) Judging a score without seeing the movie it is meant to serve is like judging a woman's mouth without seeing the rest of her face. It is simply silly to do so.

b) When you are disappointed in a score by a composer whose work you usually admire, you must keep in mind that he works under the guidance, and sometimes the demands, of a director or producer. Even Hans does not have complete autonomy. Neither does John Williams. His music editor, Ken Wannberg once told me that Spielberg had reduced JW to tears with his criticism on a couple of occasions.


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## Hannes_F (Jun 13, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> a) Judging a score without seeing the movie it is meant to serve is like judging a woman's mouth without seeing the rest of her face. It is simply silly to do so.



Good points, Jay.
Still I wonder how many here buy+ listen soundtracks before the film comes out. If I remember well I always ordered after watching the film but that might not be the norm.


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## joshua (Jun 13, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 12 said:


> Greg @ Wed Jun 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Why not actually see the movie before formulating such an opinion...?...
> ...



Reviewing film score as a a standalone is fine to me, as long as you qualify it as such. After all, the music is available by itself for purchase. I don't buy film music to bring me back to the experience of seeing the movie. I buy film music to listen to it in my car, office, home, just like I do pop, classical, and other music I purchase. 

I bought the Man of Steel's soundtrack before seeing the movie. I liked the track previews; I liked what I heard in the trailer. Whether it works well with the movie won't influence my purchasing decision.


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## reddognoyz (Jun 13, 2013)

I think the Man of Steel soundtrack is awesome, huge, so pumped up and powerful! I have the delux soundtrack, haven't heard it all by any means, but I like what I hear. Hans Zimmer is the shiznit in my book. This video offers a glimpse into his recording process for this film. 

'Man of Steel' Composer Hans Zimmer Offers Glimpse of Creative Process
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/videos/man-of-steel-composer-hans-zimmer-offers-glimpse-of-creative-process-20130613 (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/video ... s-20130613)


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## choc0thrax (Jun 13, 2013)

I think people tend to buy the score before seeing the movie when they don't plan to ever see the movie.


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## AR (Jun 13, 2013)

My guess is, he wins the Oscar for this score. Although i'm not found of the academy, i think zack managed to get something out of him what Nolan couldn't. Listen to track 6. Sooo Hans 90'....then of course the theme...but i also adore terraforming. Simply awesome. To answer your question, why he will get an Oscar nod....
He finally filled the gap between his more recent sound (tdk, da Vinci, pirates) and his old beloved made-him-famous-for sound. Congrats Hans!!! You are the man!


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## Greg (Jun 13, 2013)

rpaillot @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> Sorry but I'm not sure Hans and film composers here would agree with that.
> With such sentences, you're reducing the important role of film-music to just some "buried in the mix" wallpaper music that nobody cares.
> 
> Yes you can score a movie with only some omnisphere pads, and it would work and follow what's onscreen perfectly. But making a score memorable, original, is another game! For me MOS is such a score.
> ...



If you really let the film become part of you and live inside its world, the unique musical voice will eventually fall into place. Trying to force a soundtrack into being memorable or unique without letting the film take you there.. will end in disaster.


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## Diffusor (Jun 13, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Wed Jun 12 said:


> *WARNING*
> 
> Troels' personal site has been hacked. *DO NOT *click the link to his personal site. I just sent him a pm; if anyone has his phone #, give him a call.



It's been that way for months. I posted about it to him in another thread.


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## tfishbein82 (Jun 13, 2013)

RE: film score with and without the movie.

In HZ's own words:


> When I write the score, I only think about the characters and the story, but when I try to put the soundtrack album together, I try to actually make it a good listening experience. I actually work very hard to try to be responsible at delivering a decent soundtrack album, and not just make it an afterthought to the movie. I try to write music that can stand on its own two feet, apart from the picture.


From his Reddit AMA.


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## Greg (Jun 13, 2013)

Score that stands alone as a musical statement is an integral part of being a 'good' soundtrack isn't it? Can anyone think of a 'great' score that doesn't make sense without picture?


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## JohnG (Jun 13, 2013)

"doesn't make sense without picture" would be overstating it, but Morricone's "In the Line of Fire" is awesome with picture and not that exciting without.


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## dpasdernick (Jun 13, 2013)

dgburns @ Wed Jun 12 said:


> if Troels is being sarcastic,I have a new found admiration for his sense of humour!
> 
> Ok,so to be fair I have not seen it,but my gut tells me Hans walks off with the hardware come Oscar night.
> 
> why so critical of the score?it's just music anyway.only got twelve notes to fart around with...bound to stumble on the same thing every once in a while!may as well get paid while your at it



I would have said that Hans would have walked away with the Oscar for Inception but instead they gave it to a washed up Marylin Manson wannabe.  Never underestimate the stupidity of people in power...


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## germancomponist (Jun 13, 2013)

Frankly-h @ Wed Jun 12 said:


> I also heard that Hans hired a huge group of pro drummers to record the percussion, and yes the sound is huge, but in my opinion it doesn't add anything significant to the score.



Huh, I overread this. So you think this very cool (and never heard elsewhere) sound doesn't add anything significant to the score? 

Hello? 

My advice: Listen to the music again!


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## Frankly-h (Jun 13, 2013)

8)


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## dcoscina (Jun 13, 2013)

I bought this on iTunes and while I'm still trying to warm to the action tracks, there are some real standouts here. I absolutely dig the way the first track unfolds with the Main Theme unfolding into that triplet figure cello spiccato part. Love how the line modulates so quickly too. Not to be a patronizing wise ass but it sounds like Hans is really expanding his universe because that kind of writing isn't something I'd necessarily equate with his usual style. But it put a smile on my face. 

I also like how the score has quotes from his main theme. I was worried when I heard some of the clips before the soundtrack was released because it didnt appear to have that thematic cohesion but happily it does. 

I personally like the guitars too. Fun to listen to in the car as well.


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## 667 (Jun 13, 2013)

I bought on iTunes but haven't had a chance to listen much yet. I grabbed the Deluxe Edition not realizing that it would not include the "Z+ DTS" download code. Apparently that is only in boxed versions. :-(

http://www.dts.com/corporate/press-rele ... one-x.aspx



Frankly-h @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> I listened to it a second time, and I just absolutely love it.
> It's really dramatic and great.


Well there ya go. Drama defused!


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## Tatu (Jun 13, 2013)

667 @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> I bought on iTunes but haven't had a chance to listen much yet. I grabbed the Deluxe Edition not realizing that it would not include the "Z+ DTS" download code. Apparently that is only in boxed versions. :-(
> 
> http://www.dts.com/corporate/press-rele ... one-x.aspx



:-(


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## Jetzer (Jun 13, 2013)

I made the mistake of listening to a score before seeing the movie once, and will not do it again. 
I think it was Skyfall, on the first listen I thought it was okay, but it I loved it after I saw the movie. 
I just don't want to judge a score without seeing the movie first anymore, because in the end supporting the movie is what it's all about.


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## midi_controller (Jun 13, 2013)

dpasdernick @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> I would have said that Hans would have walked away with the Oscar for Inception but instead they gave it to a washed up Marylin Manson wannabe.  Never underestimate the stupidity of people in power...



Whoa, hold on there. First off Reznor is not some "Marylin Manson wannabe" considering that Reznor has been around much, much longer. Actually, it was Reznor who signed Marylin Manson to his label the the first place. Not that you care, but now you know!

Should Reznor have won that Academy Award? In my opinion, no, but I don't think that Zimmer should have either, although I love the score to Inception. I was rooting for Powell's How to Train Your Dragon that year. 

Still, I have much respect for Reznor and what he does, I've been a Nine Inch Nails fan since I was a teenager, and you can't blame him for the Academy giving him the award, it's nothing but a popularity contest at this point.

Back on topic, I already bought Man of Steel, but I'm going to wait until after I see the film to actually listen to it. I don't know why I bought it so soon (probably to show support or something) but now it's just sitting there... tempting me...


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## dcoscina (Jun 13, 2013)

midi_controller @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> dpasdernick @ Thu Jun 13 said:
> 
> 
> > I would have said that Hans would have walked away with the Oscar for Inception but instead they gave it to a washed up Marylin Manson wannabe.  Never underestimate the stupidity of people in power...
> ...



Me too. I thought HTTYD was far and away the best score that year both in and out of the movie. 

I hope Powell returns to film scoring. If MOS spawns a sequel, I would absolutely love it if he and Hans collaborated. Their teamwork on Kung Fu Panda 1 & 2 was...wait for it....legendary.


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## Greg (Jun 13, 2013)

dpasdernick @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> I would have said that Hans would have walked away with the Oscar for Inception but instead they gave it to a washed up Marylin Manson wannabe.  Never underestimate the stupidity of people in power...



Pretty naive comment, I hope you're being sarcastic.


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## bdr (Jun 13, 2013)

+1 on what Jay said. I have had stuff that would have sounded great as a standalone piece of music emasculated by filmmakers...and in majority of cases it was better for the film.


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## Rctec (Jun 13, 2013)

Can I just have maybe one day of enjoying myself before everybody tells me its crap? 
-H-


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## midi_controller (Jun 13, 2013)

NO!  

I'm sure it's good stuff Hans, people just have weird expectations sometimes. With this one it's going to be really tough, only because of that massive shadow that John Williams cast from his Superman scores. It will inevitably lead to comparisons even though that is completely unfair considering you are both such different composers, working on what looks like radically different films. 

I think you've gone through this before though, with the Batman films, and your work there pretty much set the bar for action oriented music for years after so I'm pretty damn sure you did something right in that score, even if some might have been upset that it was so different from Elfman's work.

Besides, I have a feeling this film might be the big one this year. Just sit back and watch all the money flow. :D


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## Mike Marino (Jun 13, 2013)

Rctec @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> Can I just have maybe one day of enjoying myself before everybody tells me its crap?
> -H-



+1


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## choc0thrax (Jun 13, 2013)

dcoscina @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> midi_controller @ Thu Jun 13 said:
> 
> 
> > dpasdernick @ Thu Jun 13 said:
> ...



Hrm? Did Powell ever leave film scoring? Have you heard his score for Mars Needs Moms? It's awesome. Very thematic.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 13, 2013)

Rctec @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> Can I just have maybe one day of enjoying myself before everybody tells me its crap?
> -H-



Horseflies nipping at a champion stallion.


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## Dan Mott (Jun 13, 2013)

No one in here said the score was crap... Am I missing something? Seems like everyone likes the score, looking at the comments. No?

I like. I really like the ambient sounds throughout the tracks. Just love ambient style to music.


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## SamGarnerStudios (Jun 13, 2013)

I love HZ's music, but why is it every time I log on to VI it's HZ this or Brian Tyler that lol. Or even better, "this guy copied this guy". I think once I even saw "Another HZ thread"... We composers are going to have a serious identity crisis in 20 years.


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## joshua (Jun 13, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> No one in here said the score was crap... Am I missing something?


Yes. OP initially wrote he didn't like the score. But after another listen he now loved it (and edited his original post).


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## dgburns (Jun 13, 2013)

hey,wait a sec,I did say it would take the Oscar did I not?

And as I shared the stage at the last Socan Awards Gala with monsieur Mychael Danna,I do know what an Oscar winner looks like up close( I was not on stage for the same award however, but had the company of monsieur Marty Simon accepting with me).

and NIN did a great job on the FB score btw.Nice non orchestral romp that was just fun.

But this is the year for Hans Zimmer.just calling it like I see it.

sorry,not sure who I hit reply to.everyone welcome to comment(except Jay!) :mrgreen: 

and the title thread sounds like a porno guys,waddup wit dat? :shock:


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## valexnerfarious (Jun 13, 2013)

i just came from seeing MOS and i have to say its one of the best films i have seen in years and definetly the best superman movie that had been made yet..the score for this that HZ has delivered for this is very emotional,powerful and most of all inspiring...Yes john williams score is very iconic and tiimeless...but we have heard that theme for the past almost 30+ years...HZ's score i have no doubts that this score will be forever engraved in our minds in time...its already is in mine..Congrats Hans...amazing job


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## rJames (Jun 13, 2013)

Just saw it as well and my ears are ringing. (FWIW they ring all the time) loud fx. Ouch.

I'm going to have to listen to the soundtrack album to tell you if I like the score! I felt the story, didn't notice the music when it wasn't supposed to be noticed.


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## G.R. Baumann (Jun 14, 2013)

Who's that bass player? Impressive facial hair!  

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/videos/man-of-steel-composer-hans-zimmer-offers-glimpse-of-creative-process-20130613


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## Ganvai (Jun 14, 2013)

Cool Video. thanks for the link.


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## Mr Greg G (Jun 14, 2013)

G.R. Baumann @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> Who's that bass player? Impressive facial hair!
> 
> http://www.rollingstone.com/music/videos/man-of-steel-composer-hans-zimmer-offers-glimpse-of-creative-process-20130613



Am I seeing 2 PODxts at 1:10 on the guitar/bass cabs/frfr? So much for the Axe FX users :mrgreen:


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## lucianogiacomozzi (Jun 14, 2013)

I'd held off listening until this topic arose. Whilst I feel what you're saying on this score and that one note blaring repetition in particular, I couldn't really ignore the fact I liked it. It had a fair bit more going on alongside it and although I'm a huge fan of a strong, interesting melody, it just seems to go with it somewhat. It does have to be both important to the film in context and stand up on its own, and I feel that the majority of this score does. It's sufficiently different, I'm not gonna lie, I was expecting another Dark Knight style with a more heroic tint to it (I expected quality, I'm not disputing that!) but it's something great by itself. I don't think you can really fault simplicity sometimes when we all tend to over complicate or overcrowd things at some point in our work. I'm always going for the "make it more complex" approach when something isn't sounding right but recently I've discovered that simplicity is sometimes key. But that's just my opinion, of course!


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## dreamawake (Jun 14, 2013)

I'm among the named that buys the scores and listens to them usually before the I've watched the movie based on a clip I've heard. And then listens to them again and again after I've watched the movie.

Bought MOS and played it while driving for a few hours today. And it doesn't disappoint. Though Williams set the bar high, Zimmer has really made it is own. The theme is there. It winds its way throughout the whole set and is triumphant as well as beautifully and elegantly simple.

We all know the story. The hero. And the soundtrack delivers the power, the triumph, the glory that we all have come to expect in Superman. But what caught me were the tracks where the stripped down theme plays as beautifully as a reverent hymn and then builds up slowly to paint the full picture - Goodbye My Son, This is Clark Kent and What Are You Going to do When You're Not Saving the World?

As musicians we are all artists. We are all painters. Our medium is sound. We have one advantage over painters however...when people stand and judge a painting, they do so based on their emotions, memories and what the colors, textures and shapes mean to them and what they remember or interpret. But when someone listens to our music, they hear and feel emotion. Our emotions. The breaths, the fingers, the pauses. Our art conveys emotion..the emotion we put into it the same way our voice or laughter does to those around us. It's our fingerprint....our time stamp into our emotional diary. 

So to bring this full circle....when masterfully crafted, a soundtrack like MOS gives you the emotional imprint and reaction of the composer to the visual imagery presented. And allows the audience to go on that journey and feel the beauty, the reverence, the power, the struggle and the triumph.


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## oxo (Jun 14, 2013)

> Can I just have maybe one day of enjoying myself before everybody tells me its crap? Smile
> -H-




...ist ja auch ne verdammte frechheit, dass du deine musik nach den vorgaben deiner auftraggeber gestaltest und nicht nach den erwartungen der forenteilnehmer hier


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## Tino Danielzik (Jun 14, 2013)

Like every score by HZ, first they hate them and finally they copie them. 

Why do all people think they have to talk HZ's scores down, would it be a crime to say that they like it? 

I love his scores and this one as well, awesome sound, really love the idea and the result of all the drums. 

What about Howard Shore or Marco Beltrami, there are so many other composer and scores to talk about, but you always end up with Zimmer and the way he writes music. To me, if someone is talking about a person over and over again, even if it's negativ, it means, that he or she fell in love. :D Lucky Hans.


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## tmm (Jun 14, 2013)

I personally haven't heard the MOS soundtrack yet, b/c I don't plan on doing so before seeing the movie, but I personally think HZ has refined to perfection the art of taking something very simple and masterfully embellishing it until it's undeniably epic. TDK, Inception, and Sherlock are all great examples of that, to varying degrees, and it sounds like MOS is another step in that evolution.


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## dpasdernick (Jun 14, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> Rctec @ Thu Jun 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Can I just have maybe one day of enjoying myself before everybody tells me its crap?
> ...



Spot on Jay...Spot on.


----------



## dpasdernick (Jun 14, 2013)

Greg @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> dpasdernick @ Thu Jun 13 said:
> 
> 
> > I would have said that Hans would have walked away with the Oscar for Inception but instead they gave it to a washed up Marylin Manson wannabe.  Never underestimate the stupidity of people in power...
> ...



I don't know about naive but when I listen to this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQvM4EM0lO8

...I cry like a baby. You don't just hear the notes... you hear the weight. Incredible weight. 4 notes that could crush a planet. I listened hard to the Social Network soundtrack while watching the movie and it sounded like B-side Nine Inch Nails compared to this. With all due respect to Mr. Reznor (I loved pretty Hate Machine) his academy award was unjust when Inception is also on the table. They're not in the same arena at all.

My humble opinion, yours may differ. I mean this all with due respect. 

Darren


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## woodsdenis (Jun 14, 2013)

JohnG @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> "doesn't make sense without picture" would be overstating it, but Morricone's "In the Line of Fire" is awesome with picture and not that exciting without.



As brilliant as they are, John William's Jaws and Bernard Hermann"s Psycho are intrinsically linked to the picture. If played for the first time without the visuals what would your reaction be ? Difficult to judge I know as they are classics in movie scoring.


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## Echoes in the Attic (Jun 14, 2013)

Tino Danielzik @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> Why do all people think they have to talk HZ's scores down, would it be a crime to say that they like it?



I don't understand why several people are being so defensive of his music when it's basically unanimous that everybody likes it. Who are these people talking it down? Haven't seen it in this thread. OP wasn't blown away at first I suppose but seems to have warmed up to it. Everybody else seems to love it.

I've had that tune in my head ever since Trailer #3 came out, which I now realize is "What are you going to do when you're not saving the world". "Flight" is a very cool take on that theme as well, with those slide guitars.


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## woodsdenis (Jun 14, 2013)

G.R. Baumann @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> Who's that bass player? Impressive facial hair!
> 
> http://www.rollingstone.com/music/videos/man-of-steel-composer-hans-zimmer-offers-glimpse-of-creative-process-20130613



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leland_Sklar

Leland Sklar, genius !!!!


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## davidgary73 (Jun 14, 2013)

Just watched MOS in 3D and the music is truly Epic. Loved every music score accept for the shattering sound efx which still rings in my ear after the movie.


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## midi_controller (Jun 14, 2013)

dpasdernick @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> I don't know about naive but when I listen to this... ect



He wasn't calling you naive because you liked Inception, he was calling you naive because you called Trent Reznor a "washed up Marilyn Manson wannabe".


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## dcoscina (Jun 14, 2013)

Rctec @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> Can I just have maybe one day of enjoying myself before everybody tells me its crap?
> -H-



Hans, the score is by no means "crap". I'd avoid reading through film score forums though since most of them aren't musicians and certainly have no clue about the industry or process of film scoring (I don't even know it that well and from the sound of it from a lot of pros on here, I don't think I wan't to!). 

I think there are some wonderful ideas and execution on the score which I also bought on CD today as I wanted the full sonic experience that iTunes cannot present to me. 

I admittedly have not seen the film so I'm only going off what I hear from the score. I think you caught the nobility and awe of Superman in your theme. And I was very pleased to here how you thread it through out the score (I was a little nervous from the 30 second clips on Amazon as they didn't reveal a lot of this). The theme actually works on 2 plains. It encompasses the awe of Superman but also the mid West roots of his upbringing. It works on both counts. 

There's a lot of room for development of this theme too which is evident throughout the score. 

If anyone has seen the film, is that triplet celli figure at the end of the "Looking to the Stars" track Zod's theme? I heard it recapped later on. I love how it moves around descending 7th chords kind of like Bernard Herrmann used to do (Herrmann is one of my favorite composers BTW). This to me really perked up my ears and I absolutely love it. 

I put together an orchestral arrangement of your theme to illustrate to some naysayers that it can be treated to various settings and work very well. The theme certainly inspired me that's for sure. 

I will only add that this score was probably one of the toughest to tackle for any composer BECAUSE the character and even Williams' score are so iconic. I do admire that you went in your own direction rather than do a half baked copy of what's already out there. 

Kudos!


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## Frankly-h (Jun 14, 2013)

Rctec @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> Can I just have maybe one day of enjoying myself before everybody tells me its crap?
> -H-



I never thought that I'd ever write something to which the great Hans Zimmer would respond. :D


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## germancomponist (Jun 14, 2013)

Frankly-h @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> Rctec @ Thu Jun 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Can I just have maybe one day of enjoying myself before everybody tells me its crap?
> ...



Frankly-h, maybe you should tell people like dcoscina, who later went in here..., that you now have changed the headline and your first post in this thread? Just to avoid misunderstandings. o/~


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## dcoscina (Jun 14, 2013)

germancomponist @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> Frankly-h @ Fri Jun 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Rctec @ Thu Jun 13 said:
> ...



what? Not sure I follow you...


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## bluejay (Jun 14, 2013)

Rctec @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> Can I just have maybe one day of enjoying myself before everybody tells me its crap?
> -H-



... and about another week before they start copying it endlessly. 

Congratulations on a magnificent score.


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## germancomponist (Jun 14, 2013)

bluejay @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> ... and about another week before they start copying it endlessly.



The so called "modern composers", off course.


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## Frankly-h (Jun 14, 2013)

@ Gunther
Sure. Well I hadn't properly listened to the music and I opened the thread with a critical opinion. Subsequently, I gave it another listen, this time with a new perspective, and changed my opinion.


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## germancomponist (Jun 14, 2013)

Frankly-h @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> @ Gunther
> Sure. Well I hadn't properly listened to the music and I opened the thread with a critical opinion. Subsequently, I gave it another listen, this time with a new perspective, and changed my opinion.



I like it very much when people stand for their "changing opinion"! I often got another opinion to this and that after I got new informations, new impressions, e.t.c. . Our life is alive.

o-[][]-o


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## dcoscina (Jun 14, 2013)

I agree. People should be allowed to change their minds about things. If we are held to things we've said or done in our past, it's very difficult to allow us to grow. 

I was a very vocal dissident of Mr Zimmer for awhile but had a change of heart somewhere along the line because he's written a lot of music I emotionally connect to and I frankly don't give a crap how complex or not complex it is. It interests and moves me and that's fundamentally what music is about. For me at least.

EDIT- I hope Hans has not been alienated from this forum because of this initial feedback. My sense was he saw this place as friendly and informed one since a lot of guys here are professionals and know a lot. 

Soundtrack forums on the other hand are littered with ignorant fan boys who wouldn't know a triad from a tritone yet somehow think they exist on a higher plateau of listeners since they like "orchestral music". Exceptions of course do exist on those sites too mind you....


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## Frankly-h (Jun 14, 2013)

germancomponist @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> Frankly-h @ Fri Jun 14 said:
> 
> 
> > @ Gunther
> ...


That's great to hear.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 14, 2013)

My admiration for HZ increases every year. His talent seems inarguable to me. His work ethic is admirable. His humility surprises and delights. The long interviews he gives, the sharing with the community of how he does what he does, his candid appraisals of the myriad difficulties of deadlines and such, illuminating.

I think he strikes a great balance between music that (always the first priority) serves the film and yet is enjoyable on its own. Anyone with the range to write the scores to The Last Samurai and Inception is truly a master of the film scoring art. Even the snippets used to support True Romance were quite charming.

I can't comment on MOS because I like to see the film before buying the soundtrack- but I'm sure the music supports the film beautifully and brings something new to HZ's palette. He seems to need to do that, which is great because at this point, he probably doesn't have to anymore. It's his inner drive that keeps him looking for fresh approaches.

In my opinion, if the mantle has passed from Mister Williams to Mister Zimmer (and I believe it has) it's in good hands.


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 14, 2013)

With Hans, I tend to miss the bells and whistles (Johnny Marr, 10 steel guitars, drummers, etc.) since I'm blown away by the synths and the ideas; how it hits the picture and helps unfold the story.



Rctec @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> Can I just have maybe one day of enjoying myself before everybody tells me its crap?
> -H-



We'll all be sure to let you know tomorrow.

EDIT- the above is called 'joking'...i already like it...


----------



## steb74 (Jun 14, 2013)

dcoscina @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> Hans, the score is by no means "crap". I'd avoid reading through film score forums though since most of them aren't musicians and certainly have no clue about the industry or process of film scoring (I don't even know it that well and from the sound of it from a lot of pros on here, I don't think I wan't to!).



Yeah, your own post from FSM is interesting, here it is, perhaps Hans could answer it for you?



> _I like a good portion of what I've heard. Whether it will stand the test of time we will see but I like this score in general. Perhaps Hans never really got past the huge mantle of responsibility of handling this iconic character and did a sort of compositional "deer in headlights" since I will agree with Mike that some of the ideas are unformed or not developed to a point that even classic Hans would see through. His 2 note alternating phrase of tonic-dominant, tonic -sub dominant is a terrific beginning of a main theme. But when it's repeated ad nauseum with no counter melody it ends up feeling just like- a counter melody with no stronger main theme to contrast it with.
> 
> I like Zimmer's use of electronic textures and I noticed him using the major 7th inversion and cycle of 4ths in a couple places- music devices he hasn't explored before.
> 
> ...





dcoscina @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> I was a very vocal dissident of Mr Zimmer for awhile but had a change of heart somewhere along the line because he's written a lot of music I emotionally connect to and I frankly don't give a crap how complex or not complex it is. It interests and moves me and that's fundamentally what music is about. For me at least.



Yes, for many years (in the film score forums) you almost went out of your way to call him 'Hansy' and were pretty disrespectful about his music.
This road to Damascus style conversion (I shouldn't say that really as you're right, anyone can and has the right to change their opinion at at time without having to explain themselves to 'The Internet') .....and the addition of 'Mr' can't help but make go into a kind of laughter/facepalm combo, because I know what you've written over the years man .......uffff and some of it's been pretty rough!!

I hate posting shit like this but I can't stand people playing both sides.
You seem do it all the time between here and the film score boards.


----------



## dcoscina (Jun 14, 2013)

Yes steb74 or whatever your name is. Its so much more honorable to be a chicken shit and hide behind an alias so you aren't accountable for anything you post anywhere.

I stand by my observations and if you understood english, you would see a consistency behind my observations between both forums. You also neglected to include posts a few weeks back where I vehemently defended Hans' trailer music and along with Mike West on FSM did a thorough analysis of why the music was so exciting. 

But no. You choose to only copy paste the parts that make you look like a swell guy and a true Zimmer apostle. I actually left the forum because people were judging it unfairly but you also excluded that as well.

And, if out of the hundreds of posts I've made at that site over the years this is all you take away from them, well, I have nothing more for you pal.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 14, 2013)

If I were to live 1000 years, I still would never understand the upside of relatively unaccomplished people discussing highly accomplished people's work as if they were peers.

It is bizzarro world to me.


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 14, 2013)

There's nothing to understand. It's called having an opinion. Whatever.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 14, 2013)

givemenoughrope @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> There's nothing to understand. It's called having an opinion. Whatever.



Having an opinion about successful people's work does not mean you have to publicly state that opinion. 

Hubris. Everyone is now the star of their own little talk show


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 14, 2013)

Old man yells at cloud. Just don't read it then...

It's implied that no one here (or almost anywhere) can do what Hans can do. It's almost a joke that he posts here but we're all very grateful of the fact. Little insights and personal philosophies from people like him mean a ton.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 14, 2013)

givemenoughrope @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> It's almost a joke that he posts here but we're all very grateful of the fact. Little insights and personal philosophies from people like him mean a ton.



Exactly. So why not give the guy (not you personally) the respect he has clearly earned and if you don't like one of his scores, just say nothing, like the old adage suggests? 

I think neither Hans or the culture will be the poorer for the loss of those insightful posts here.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 14, 2013)

What an interesting forum this would be if no one stated a negative opinion about anything. Imagine all the happy developers, smiling beatifically....

I think it's clear we need a star rating system for meritorious (or not) opinions. I suggest the following:

1. One star if you've ever written a piece of music. *
2. Two stars if you've ever been paid to do so. **
3. Three stars if you've ever scored an A-list film ***
4. Four stars if the film made money. ****
5. Five stars if you've made multiple successful A-list films *****

i say everyone with less than 3 stars should shut the heck up. I'll start :|


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 14, 2013)

Larry, I like it !!!!!!

But now I have to shut up as well because I probably fall in at about 2.5 stars


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## NYC Composer (Jun 14, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> Larry, I like it !!!!!!
> 
> But now I have to shut up as well because I probably fall in at about 2.5 stars



Ummm... 'zactly. 

Edit- (oops!)


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 14, 2013)

No argument here, Jay. 

I could care less who likes it or why. (It's a film score. By definition there are going to be sections I care less about since it's the picture that counts.) maybe if we don't scare him off he'll tell us how hard it is to mic 12 drummers (who are used to being close mic'ed and not playing with 11 other drummers) or any other dozens of insights gleaned from wrangling a white whale such as this.


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## Arbee (Jun 14, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> If I were to live 1000 years, I still would never understand the upside of relatively unaccomplished people discussing highly accomplished people's work as if they were peers.
> 
> It is bizzarro world to me.


My favourite quote of the year Jay! It's an interesting observation of human behaviour that by being critical of highly acclaimed and successful folk we can somehow feel more elevated and equal.

(from another self rated 2.5 member :wink: )

.


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## 667 (Jun 14, 2013)

Jay's quote is perfect.



Rctec @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> Can I just have maybe one day of enjoying myself before everybody tells me its crap?
> -H-


The score is a huge success, so kudos and thanks for the DTX+ effort (even though with iTunes I didn't get to hear it. 

But prepare yourself for 3-4 years of triplets and big drums! :-(


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## TheUnfinished (Jun 15, 2013)

Oh come on!

So, if someone starts a thread asking what people think of a score, only people who like it are allowed to respond?

Have we all just vanished into a wormhole where nobody has ever criticised music on this forum?

Sure, no-one should be outright rude or disrespectful about another composer's work, but let's not be utterly bizarre about it!


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## jcs88 (Jun 15, 2013)

I like the score, a lot. It's hard for me to be objective since HZ is the 'rockstar' that got me into wanting to write for picture, so I'm wearing rose tinted glasses a lot of the time.

As (un)popular as it is, I love the big epic percussion/balls tot he wall type stuff, and there's some great parts of that here. The percussion sounds incredible. 

While Hans said he wanted to go into a new direction here, I do hear certain 'emotions' of the Dark Knight scores in his writing still, which I suppose not a bad thing. I've not seen the film yet as I don't have the money for an IMAX ticket (and wanted to experience it, mostly the score, in that surrounding). As a result it's hard for me to talk about the suitability for the film, but again, rose tinted glasses and all that, so I'm sure it will be cool.


I was looking forward to his AMA on reddit for AGES and had my questions typed and ready to go to avoid the inevitable horde, but I didn't hear my alarm and missed it. After I read through it the thing that stuck out was the self doubt and concerns he seems to go through while writing, and a sense of humility. I'm at a stage now in my 'career' where I'm having to make some hard and permanent choices about which way to go with all of this, and it's refreshing to see the guy at the top say he struggles with similar things than I do (self doubt is of course more easy to handle when you have his reputation and lack of bill piles, but you know what I mean). I became a fan of HZ as a fan of his music while knowing nothing of any of it or indeed him. As I've learned all I have my admiration for him has only grown, both as a writer and a person, and I think that's because there is a human element to the guy; he's doing what he loves, he seems to know he's lucky to be doing it, he's not a juilliard/berklee graduate at 11. While I'd avoid the arrogance of comparing myself to Hans, there is a realism about his career timeline/skill set that I find very relatable. Anyway, I'm gushing now so I'll stop.

Man, run on sentences much?


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## Resoded (Jun 15, 2013)

Loved it. I listened to it after coming home from a hard day at work and it reminded me why I love music so much. It can definitely stand on it's own. The thundering percussion seems to be even more massive than the batman perc.


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## toomanynotes (Jun 15, 2013)

germancomponist @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> bluejay @ Fri Jun 14 said:
> 
> 
> > ... and about another week before they start copying it endlessly.
> ...



I think you hit the nail on the head here....


And that is why i think Han's music is so popular. The simple fact that 'modern composers' are led to believe that his music can be imitated to a satisfactory level with daw tools, compared with say...a Bach's prelude or a Stravinsky ballet.

With all due respect, You can blame developers for this. 
The thing Hans does better than any of his fanboy/fangirls clones is to think outside the box. Food for thought.

I haven't even heard the OST, But i do dig 'Going for Gold' That tune is stuck in my head..
Thanks Hans for reminding me of the 80's every other day.

Pin

p.s good luck with the film's success, i dare say it's dream come true for you!


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## mark812 (Jun 15, 2013)

NYC Composer said:


> What an interesting forum this would be if no one stated a negative opinion about anything.



Like Soundsonline forum? Democratic as The Democratic People's Republic of Korea.



TheUnfinished @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> Oh come on!
> 
> So, if someone starts a thread asking what people think of a score, only people who like it are allowed to respond?
> 
> ...



+100

Loved the score, btw. Very atmospheric and even minimal, which I really liked. Or should I maybe wait for my "star" rating and then comment?


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## zacnelson (Jun 15, 2013)

I think I only qualify for a half *!


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## NYC Composer (Jun 15, 2013)

mark812 @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> NYC Composer said:
> 
> 
> > What an interesting forum this would be if no one stated a negative opinion about anything.
> ...



That said-I do believe opinions about creative works should be made respectfully, and that includes the work of developers.


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## mark812 (Jun 15, 2013)

zacnelson @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> I think I only qualify for a half *!


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## rpaillot (Jun 15, 2013)

I really like the guitar theme played in "If you love these people " sounds like a 
modernized version of Drop Zone soundtrack


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## mark812 (Jun 15, 2013)

Those distorted drones in _Terraforming_ are spectacular.


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## zacnelson (Jun 15, 2013)

hehehe nice one Mark812!!


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## Ryan Scully (Jun 15, 2013)

Saw the film last night and really enjoyed it - I bought Hans' score the other day but was holding off on listening to it until I saw the film. As others have echoed my admiration for him and respect for his work is immense. I feel he has crafted a superb score that's emotional, powerful, innovative and overall extremely well crafted. It serves its purpose to the film tenfold and is very enjoyable to listen on its own. Really glad he became involved in this film!


Ryan :D


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 15, 2013)

A couple of quick points that I thought were obvious, but I guess they are not.

Unlike most of the big name-big film composers whose scores we might discuss, Hans is actually HERE. And unless I missed it, he did not write, "Hey folks, I am really curious to hear what you think of my score for Man Of Steel."

Presumably, you would not walk up to him if you were in the same room physically and say to him, "Hans, I just saw Man Of Steel and I was not impressed by your score."

You would not do it because:
a) It would be rude.
b) You would reveal yourself to be an a-hole to a room full of people.
c) He might slap you , either physically or verbally 

A forum is like a room in a house in my mind, just bigger, and I am the same guy and act the same way in both. My guess is that few of you see it that way.


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## steb74 (Jun 15, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> A forum is like a room in a house in my mind, just bigger, and I am the same guy and act the same way in both. My guess is that few of you see it that way.


Few see it that way because the two are very different.
Here it's very easy to make a tasteless comment with an almost embarrassing display of internet superiority (just like me now I suppose??) .......and then quickly delete it, like it never happened.
Thank the stars that doesn't happen in any of the rooms in my house!

Here's a good example from you and if this is a parallel to your behaviour in the real world .........horseflies indeed! :roll:
I'm posting this as it seems to contradict your insightful three steps to internet heaven.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/248/xol9.jpg/


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 15, 2013)

steb74 @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 15 said:
> 
> 
> > A forum is like a room in a house in my mind, just bigger, and I am the same guy and act the same way in both. My guess is that few of you see it that way.
> ...



That was 8 years ago. I think I am wiser now and I hope 8 years from now I will be wiser still, just as I hope that most people will be wiser 8 years from now.

The fact that one does not always act consistently with their best self does not make them hypocritical, just human.


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## steb74 (Jun 15, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> That was 8 years ago. I think I am wiser now and I hope 8 years from now I will be wiser still, just as I hope that most people will be wiser 8 years from now.
> The fact that one does not always act consistently with their best self does not make them hypocritical, just human.



It was from 2010

http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... 1e96fe83b5


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 15, 2013)

Same comments. I was wrong to write it and I would not do so today.


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## Ed (Jun 15, 2013)

Oh no account should anyone try and find previous debates about this subject if they dont like this thread 

There's a few people here that have previously been involved in the most absurd cases of "zimmer bashing" I've ever witnessed, yet here they are today saying people should be ashamed of themselves for saying something negative about MOS and trying to take the high ground. 

Amusing. o[])


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 15, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> If I were to live 1000 years, I still would never understand the upside of relatively unaccomplished people discussing highly accomplished people's work as if they were peers.
> 
> It is bizzarro world to me.



Here's the thing. By that logic, there would be no film, literary or art criticism. Didn't like a book, eh? Well have YOU written one? It's not as easy as it looks you know.

Call me weird, but I think everyone has a right to say if they like something or not, without having accomplished anything at an equivalent level. Maybe not all opinions are equal, but they're all allowed.

How about this for another example. What does Trent Reznor think of John Williams? I have no idea, but I guess it's possible he doesn't like him. Now, the stock response is, of course, that Reznor's talent is dwarfed by Williams. But that's the sound that Fincher wanted on the Social Network (which I think worked great) - and Rezor brought something different to the table. Point is - just because someone DOESN'T like Williams, Zimmer, Powell, doesn't negate their own potential imo.

I love that Hans is a regular here (favourite post - helping someone out with a Cubase issue). I'd hope that folks would be mindful that he is here when posting, and not be rude. BUT (and as you can tell by the capitalization it's a BIG BUT) - this is the place for discussing scores freely. (disclaimer - neither seen or heard Man Of Steel yet, but the trailer was lovely).


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## jlb (Jun 15, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> A couple of quick points that I thought were obvious, but I guess they are not.
> 
> Unlike most of the big name-big film composers whose scores we might discuss, Hans is actually HERE. And unless I missed it, he did not write, "Hey folks, I am really curious to hear what you think of my score for Man Of Steel."
> 
> ...



I totally agree with Jay. There is a lack of manners on here. I still can't believe that someone like Hans actually takes the time to even read this forum. There are too many jealous no hopers around.

The score is terrific, end of story. Especially 'Goodbye my son' and 'What are You Going to Do When You are Not Saving the World'. 

I don't think it is a masterpiece, like Williams '78 score, but then I'm sure Hans is already aware that he couldn't top that.

Hans we do appreciate you posting on here very much.

JLB


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 15, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun 16 Jun said:


> Same comments. I was wrong to write it and I would not do so today.



Somebody disliking your post does not make it 'wrong' Jay. I very much appreciate hearing anything and everything one has to say, be it for or against.

But i definitely sense some 'pressure to please' among some of the threads. It can be very intimidating for somebody (especial an 'unaccomplished' somebody) to start a well-intended discussion based on criticisms and feedback, without the fear of being virtually gang-raped.

But to bring my comment back to the topic...
I have not seen the film yet, but i have seen the trailer. For me, it suffered from the Avatar/Gangnam effect - I know that it must be good, because everybody says it is, but perhaps the hype surrounding it hindered my first impression.
Now, I'm outta here! ~o)


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## steb74 (Jun 15, 2013)

jlb @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> I totally agree with Jay. There is a lack of manners on here. I still can't believe that someone like Hans actually takes the time to even read this forum. There are too many jealous no hopers around.
> I don't think it is a masterpiece, like Williams '78 score, but then I'm sure Hans is already aware that he couldn't top that.



It seems a bit odd to talk about manners and then post a sure assumption as to what Hans is or isn't 'aware' of.



Jdiggity1 @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> Somebody disliking your post does not make it 'wrong' Jay.



Absolutely, there was nothing wrong about it at all, my point was about self righteousness and one's own history revisionism and how it contradicts an ever changing level on some crazy self appointed moral compass.



jlb @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> Hans we do appreciate you posting on here very much.



Indeed!


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## drasticmeasures (Jun 15, 2013)

FWIW, I normally disagree with Jay on this subject, but in this case, I gotta back him up.

I still believe that no matter what you're status, you're entitled to an opinion about anyone with any other level of status.

But, HZ is here, you know he's here - even if you're saying "I love it", the thread itself seems a little snarky and rude.

Whatever. My 2¢. Back to work now.


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## jlb (Jun 15, 2013)

steb74 @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> jlb @ Sat Jun 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I totally agree with Jay. There is a lack of manners on here. I still can't believe that someone like Hans actually takes the time to even read this forum. There are too many jealous no hopers around.
> ...



It is not an assumption. Hans is on record saying that he had to take this in a different direction and was in the shadow of Williams 1978 score.

JLB


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## rJames (Jun 15, 2013)

Funny how Jay becomes the topic of discussion so often at VI. :roll: love ya Jay.

We are not discussing a fellow VI members work, we are discussing a major work in the world of film music. That's what makes it valid and not rude in the least.

The fact that HZ is here is beside the point. I have a feeling that he will be able to separate the wheat from the chaff.

FWIW I am part of the chaff... I'm no critic...but personally...

As I walked out of the theater, listening to the credits, I was thinking how I wish the music had a more interesting melody.

I mean, think about what Williams does with melody. I love his complex, interwoven compositions.

IMHO, what Zimmerman seems to do so well...and it is responded to so well by the audiences, is that he is CONCISE!

I love concise! In verbal language and in his music.

Concise is difficult!

Ron


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## steb74 (Jun 15, 2013)

jlb @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> It is not an assumption. Hans is on record saying that he had to take this in a different direction and was in the shadow of Williams 1978 score.
> JLB



Fair enough man but it's very different for Hans to say that he feels in the shadow of Williams' work for you to then say you're sure Hans is aware that he couldn't top it.

For what it's worth, for me there's almost no score that could top Williams' Superman.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 15, 2013)

[quote="rJames @ Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:54 am"
The fact that HZ is here is beside the point. 
[/quote]

Ah, and that is the crux of it, isn't it? In my view, it is _precisely_ the point.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 15, 2013)

rJames @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> Funny how Jay becomes the topic of discussion so often at VI. :roll: love ya Jay.
> 
> We are not discussing a fellow VI members work, we are discussing a major work in the world of film music. That's what makes it valid and not rude in the least.
> 
> ...



Oh, and I don't necessarily love concise. I much prefer reading Updike to Hemingway.


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## MarkS_Comp (Jun 15, 2013)

I have one thing to say here.

If you don't think Zimmer's score is good, then let's see you do better. That simple. If you are going to trash somoene else's work, you had better be able to at least be able to come close with yours. IE - put up or *shut up*. In all the Zimmer bashing I have seen in the past, I have not yet once seen anyone offer up their own work, and say, "here - this is what I can do!". Not once. All people know how to do is trash other people's work. Does anyone around here know how to score to picture? My bet is most of you wouldn't be able to write anything to picture worth a lick. Sure, many of you write some really good standalone music - I know, because I have _heard_ some really good standalone music here. But who here can score _to picture_? My guess is that tho there might be a small few, the overwhelming vast majority of people here would never in thier lifetime be able to come up with something useful.

And before anyone says, "what about YOUR work Mark?"... remember -it's not me who is bashing anyone's work here.


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## rJames (Jun 15, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> Oh, and I don't necessarily love concise. I much prefer reading Updike to Hemingway.



This (really is) precisely my point. (vive la difference) Who is this Hemingway dude you mention. I'm not sure I've ever heard that name with respect to great literature. :lol: 

Another word that may better express what I meant is "Elegant." Elegant in the meaning of an "elegant theory in mathematics."

"Looking at the overall picture it becomes clear that elegant proofs or theories or experiments possess most or all of the following features: they are simple, ingenious, concise and persuasive; they often have an unexpected quality, and they are very satisfying. What is more, once one has understood the argument behind the proof or theory or experiment, it can be seen at a glance, and one has no doubts about its validity. Perhaps the most surprising member in this list of features is the "unexpected quality"; so let me give an example. When Thomas Henry Huxley read Darwin’s account of his theory of evolution by natural selection his comment was "How extremely stupid not to have thought of that!"

Ron


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## jlb (Jun 15, 2013)

steb74 @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> jlb @ Sat Jun 15 said:
> 
> 
> > It is not an assumption. Hans is on record saying that he had to take this in a different direction and was in the shadow of Williams 1978 score.
> ...



I know Williams 1978 score was a masterpiece, you know it, Hans knows it, end of story. What Hans has come up with is fantastic though. That circular drumming sound is stunning. 

For me Christopher Reeve will always be Superman. I loved the humour he brought to the role and how beautifully he played Clarke Kent.

JLB


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## jlb (Jun 15, 2013)

'You led us here' also wonderful. Serious Inception vibe going on there

JLB


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 15, 2013)

Saw it last night. The first 20 minutes are quite intense. 
Visual effects, sound design and score were top notch. 

I felt that the score echoed the vibe of Blade Runner/Morricone is spots. Loved it. I finally get the 'boiling things down to the simplest musical elements' approach. 

That said, the flick(story) left me kinda cold. i will go see it again though. Not sure i was caffeinated enough to keep up.


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## Jetzer (Jun 15, 2013)

I think Jay has a point. HZ is here, but this is a forum with an emphasis on film scoring so it is not unlikely that one of the most anticipated scores of the year is going to be discussed. It would be a cool idea to have one big thread were we could discuss scores. I just saw Star Trek Into Darkness and I thought the score was magnificent, should that have it's own thread as well? 

I can't help but notice that most of the people responding to this thread actually like the score. In fact, I haven't seen anyone bashing Zimmer on this forum, lately? Maybe the OP was a bit critical, but he seems to have changed his mind. 

I don't know if it is just me, although I love JW's Superman score, the movie feels very old, for me. Hopefully Man of Steel will define Superman for a new generation, like mine.


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## Ciaran Birch (Jun 15, 2013)

Went to see MOS tonight in Dublin! Absolutely loved every minute of it. I'm a huuuuge percussion fan, and I was blown away by the perc in the film. Score works perfectly to the picture, it brings out the emotions it intends to bring out, and; I had to even stay through the credits to hear the score again :D (we watched it in IMAX, so the cinema had 3D sound so it was a pleasure to hear load and clear!)

That theme will be running around my head for days. No idea where any negativity of film or score stems from. But; to each their own I suppose. o-[][]-o


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 15, 2013)

MarkS_Comp @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> If you don't think Zimmer's score is good, then let's see you do better. That simple. If you are going to trash somoene else's work, you had better be able to at least be able to come close with yours.



It really isn't that simple. This thread is in the wrong forum, it should be Off Topic as it's not a sample library. But given that, people should be allowed to say if they like or dislike something and why, without the intelligentsia saying they have no right to speak without equivalent accomplishment (in whose eyes I'm not sure anyway).

Suppose you're on day one on a journey to being a film composer. You hear a score you don't like, which might help determine your eventual (different) direction. Are you really not allowed to say you don't like it, or do you have to wait 20 years til you've won an Oscar before you're allowed to speak up? This is silly. This is the very place for a spirited debate on film scoring. An attempt to censor any negative views is unhealthy.


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## choc0thrax (Jun 15, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> MarkS_Comp @ Sat Jun 15 said:
> 
> 
> > If you don't think Zimmer's score is good, then let's see you do better. That simple. If you are going to trash somoene else's work, you had better be able to at least be able to come close with yours.
> ...



Jay's been dead wrong on the whole not being able to criticize work by an artist more accomplished than you thing for years... BUT, I think the difference in this case is that Zimmer does appear to be here on Zimmer Control forums - which I think changes things. If you're gonna criticize his work you gotta do it pretty tactfully. I think things have gone quite well in that regard, though. You can't measure all the people who could be - very painfully - biting their tongues right now.


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## dcoscina (Jun 15, 2013)

I just bought the Expanded release on iTunes in addition to the cd of the basic score. I like it more and more with each listening. 

I seriously love that triplet figure theme at the end of Look to the Stars. The mastering on the expanded version seems crisper and I can appreciate those low brass chords under the celli spiccato line. 

I apologize to Hans for anything I've said that is out of line.

To the forum member that said we should put up our own music if we are going to criticize well I did an orchestral arrangement of the theme not to criticize but because I like what Hans did and truly believe it is durable enough for many approaches. I also posted my own take on Smallville music I would compose a few weeks back. Both posts went with out any comment, good or bad.


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## Ed (Jun 15, 2013)

I do think its a bizarre argument that you have to be better than someone in order to criticise them. I wonder if these people have the same attitude to all aspects of life. So they cant criticise their plumber unless they can are at least as good as they are. They cant criticise their doctor unless they know at least as much as they do etc. Or probably a more relevant example, you cant criticise a musician unless you can play better than they can on that instrument.

Still as I said earlier it is funny watching several people here flip flop on what they used to be saying about Hans' music over the years. I wonder what that Scott guy would say from years back, who was some hollywood orchestrator or something, probably the most vehemently anti-zimmer I've ever seen


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## choc0thrax (Jun 15, 2013)

Ed @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> I do think its a bizarre argument that you have to be better that someone in order to criticise them. I wonder if these people have the same attitude to all aspects of life. So they cant criticise their plumber unless they can are at least as good as they are. They cant criticise their doctor unless they know at least as much as they do etc. Or probably a more relevant example, you cant criticise a musician unless you can play better than they can on that instrument



Maybe you're just not allowed to criticize them on forums or something. I think I saw that rule a few times.


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## Arbee (Jun 15, 2013)

It's not what you say it's how you say it, and I believe that applies equally to developers and already successful composers whose contribution IMHO makes it worth coming here. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DZ3_obMXwU


.


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## Udo (Jun 15, 2013)

Who's this Hans Zimmer fellow anyway? Is he one of those "Hollywood" composers, incapable of coming up with "real" compositions of substance? :wink:


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## MarkS_Comp (Jun 15, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> It really isn't that simple. This thread is in the wrong forum, it should be Off Topic as it's not a sample library. But given that, people should be allowed to say if they like or dislike something and why, without the intelligentsia saying they have no right to speak without equivalent accomplishment (in whose eyes I'm not sure anyway).



No - it really is that simple. Of course people should be allowed to say if they like or dislike something, but to trash someone else's work when you are not at that level is just plain wrong, IMO. If Jimmie Johnson loses the next NASCAR, and winds up towards the back, would you go and tell him he didn't drive that well? Even if it's true - no you wouldn't. Why? Because you are not at his level, and you are nobody to critizise. And he would have every right to say to you, "oh - can you do better?" And would you then respond with, "well, I have the right to speak my mind!"? No you wouldn't.




Ed @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> I do think its a bizarre argument that you have to be better than someone in order to criticise them.



You needn't be better, but you best be on - or at least near - their level.


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## Ed (Jun 15, 2013)

MarkS_Comp @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> You needn't be better, but you best be on - or at least near - their level.



Its a good thing you didnt snip away all my examples then!

Hey next time you hear someone play an instrument badly or not quite right, you have no right to criticize unless you are close to their level on that instrument. And if you have an issue with your plumber or doctor, you cant criticise, no no, you have to know as much as they do or else its not your place. And relevant to this forum, you cant criticise any sample library, unless you can or have made one at least as good as they can! When you're ready to be consistent, you'll realise how silly you sound.


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## MarkS_Comp (Jun 15, 2013)

Ed @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> Hey next time you hear someone play an instrument badly or not quite right, you have no right to criticize unless you are close to their level on that instrument.



That is EXACTLY what I am saying.

As for the plumber - you are right, I have no place to critisize if the work was done properly. If it isn't, and there is still a leak, then I do have the right to critisize, because if the water is still leaking, I needn't be on their level to see the work was not done correct.

It is YOU who sound silly, sir. Not I.


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## Ed (Jun 15, 2013)

MarkS_Comp @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> Ed @ Sat Jun 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey next time you hear someone play an instrument badly or not quite right, you have no right to criticize unless you are close to their level on that instrument.
> ...



So someone cant sayhttp://youtu.be/qkhZxumF7LM (a school band like this is shitty), because they cant play each and every instrument in this band to the same level as this kids. 

And since you skipped it, how many sample libraries have you made? If someone hasnt ever made a sample library, then according to you we cant criticise any sample library. If we havent programmed a sample library, we cant criticise the programming or UI. If we havent programmed a sequencer, we cant criticise Logic or Cubase. If we havent programmed a operating system, we cant criticise Windows. How about this, if a director criticises your work, are you to say "can you do it better??"

You can try and act like this is a consistent idea of yours, but it clearly isn't and I know you dont live your life like this.


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## midi_controller (Jun 15, 2013)

MarkS_Comp @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> Ed @ Sat Jun 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey next time you hear someone play an instrument badly or not quite right, you have no right to criticize unless you are close to their level on that instrument.
> ...



Well, time for almost every professional critic out there to pack up their bags and find a new job. Seriously, this thread is getting ridiculous.


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## Frankly-h (Jun 15, 2013)

Ed @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> MarkS_Comp @ Sat Jun 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Sat Jun 15 said:
> ...



Oh, ED. Thank you. Could not have said it better myself.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 15, 2013)

Just for the sake of clarity, I have never said people are not entitled to criticize people more accomplished than they are. Of course they are, and I do it myself on many occasions.

What I have said is that to go and publicly do so on a forum when a respected and accomplished composer has not solicited opinions is tacky, especially when that composer participates in the forum. And it is.

And obviously, comparing doing so to a bad high school band to doing so to an accomplished film composer is just silly.

And also, when someone solicits opinions, then that is different, which a developer does de facto when posting an announcement that they are selling a library.

For instance, when Hans' percussion libraruy comes out for sale, if he announces it here, then on that count he is fair game. Or if he ever is unwise enough to come here and say, "Hey guys, what do you think of the score to my latest film?"" then that will also be different.

But he did not, and for me, the fact that he did not is the determinative factor.


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## Darthmorphling (Jun 15, 2013)

MarkS_Comp @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> Ed @ Sat Jun 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey next time you hear someone play an instrument badly or not quite right, you have no right to criticize unless you are close to their level on that instrument.
> ...



[Sarcasm] 
Since you are not a plumber you do not have the right to judge his work on any level. Just because it is leaking does not mean you can fathom all the things they go through in their job.

If your kid's teacher is not doing their job, according to your opinion, then you have no experience to question their abilities.

I play guitar, but am not a multimillion selling, grammy winning artist. I love Slayer as a band. Kerry King's guitar solos leave a lot to be desired though. Of course I cannot comment on this because some view my experience level to be subpar.



Unless you play guitar, have a Grammy, and have sold millions of records, you had better not comment on them.

[/sarcasm]

On topic:

I love this score. I plan on taking my kids to see the movie tomorrow and really look forward to hearing it in its proper context.


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## Darthmorphling (Jun 15, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> Just for the sake of clarity, I have never said people are not entitled to criticize people more accomplished than they are. Of course they are, and I do it myself on many occasions.
> 
> What I have said is that to go and publicly do so on a forum when a respected and accomplished composer has not solicited opinions is tacky, especially when that composer participates in the forum. And it is.
> 
> ...



I do agree with Jay to a point on this. Hans Zimmer did not solicit opinions about the score. However, as a group, we should be able to discuss it on a forum for composers. When doing so, there should be a sense of respect. To simply dismiss anyone's work as crap is just bad form. This goes for critiquing anyone's work.


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## germancomponist (Jun 15, 2013)

Sunday morning, 8 clock. 

I am already in the studio and improvise on the piano. Soon I will prepare a delicious breakfast, wake up my wife with a cup of coffee in bed, get breakfast, and then compose. 

It is a beautiful day today. o/~


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## SymphonicSamples (Jun 15, 2013)

Ok , bought the soundtrack , absolutely love it . It was almost the most expensive soundtrack I've ever purchased . The first time I listened to it I was driving . I was so entrenched in the score , my attention was so detached from driving I almost got a speeding fine . I must say , on the opening track , the poignant moment where the perfect 5th is heard , which of course a perfect 5th so dominates the original JW theme , a brilliant connection to shift from old to new . It's one of those strange moments where now I've heard the soundtrack in full , I can't imagine any other composer having done it . This was the only soundtrack I was looking forward to more than a film for a very long time !! Bravo to Mr Zimmer .


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 15, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jun 16 said:


> What I have said is that to go and publicly do so on a forum when a respected and accomplished composer has not solicited opinions is tacky, especially when that composer participates in the forum. And it is.



Again, respectfully, I disagree.

We Need To Talk About Hans.

This is a pretty unique situation - if Mr Desplat, Mr Elfman, Mr Powell and Mr Jablonsky are all here lurking at VI-C reading and this very discussion, then none of us know about it. Hans - lord love him - spends time here and I think the overwhelming majority of us really appreciate it. None of us - none - are at his "level", in terms of both of profile, and also I'd argue in terms of influence across the whole industry. And so it's a pretty unique case.

So what to do? Are we really not allowed to discuss Hans' work unless he invites us to, in case we offend? I'd strongly argue "no". I'm quite sure that even as we speak, films are being temped with Man Of Steel, and briefs are going out there which reference it implicitly or explicitly. It's a significant score in a significant movie - is there anywhere on the web more appropriate to discuss it than here?

Of course, if someone is dumb and rude enough to make an intellectually vacuous post along the lines of "rofl Man of Steel sucks lol", then that person deserves the derision they will surely heap upon themselves (or, better, find their contribution is ignored). But if there is cogent, reasonable criticism, I'd sure hope that rctec is big enough to roll with it - and yes, in the sure and certain knowledge that his own position is far greater than that of the poster. If that post happens on day 1 I can well empathise with Hans' groan of "can't I have 1 day to enjoy it", but I'm sure that the overwhelming wall of praise has mitigated that somewhat (including from the OP). Speaking of which, as others have said, this discussion is a little ironic in this thread - everyone seems to love it anyway. I'd long for folks to be mindful of other members and thoughtful in their posts, but also to be honest. 

[this thread will really catch light if Peit ever chooses to post in it  ]


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## Dan Mott (Jun 16, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 15 said:


> givemenoughrope @ Fri Jun 14 said:
> 
> 
> > It's almost a joke that he posts here but we're all very grateful of the fact. Little insights and personal philosophies from people like him mean a ton.
> ...



This place would be boring if everyone just liked everything....

Also, people can have an opinion, whether they are successful or not.


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## Scrianinoff (Jun 16, 2013)

midi_controller @ Sun 16 Jun said:


> Seriously, this thread is getting ridiculous.





Dan-Jay @ Sun 16 Jun said:


> This place would be boring if everyone just liked everything.....


It's this kind of thread that make this forum a very entertaining place to lurk around for many. Keep up the good work! It's almost as entertaining as the thread of last year in which it was vehemently discussed how digital wave files can sound different although they are identical copies.

My opinion is that at the moment you need to bring in any argument based on authority, you have already lost it, not necessarily the debate, but the argument. If you make a habit of that, then you simply 'have lost it' completely  

On the other hand, to behave as unwarrantably tactless, hostile and hateful as some adolescents often present themselves, makes one being perceived as ... ?

We don't need stiff social rules here that define that you should at least be at level N+1 to be allowed to present uncensored negative criticism on a production of level N. 

When one of my professors in university was confronted with a question that he judged was inappropriate for a certain reason, for example, as coming from an ill prepared student, or from a student that tried to derail the discussion of the relevant subject matter, his response was: "Next question?". When he was asked once why he didn't go into the matter, or alternatively, why he didn't reprimand the student in another manner, his reply was: "_Foolishness does not deserve that much attention._" Good advice, I think.


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## Tatu (Jun 16, 2013)

Just pressed play. Got awesome goose bumps at 2:05. That's enough for me.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 16, 2013)

[quote="Guy Rowland @ Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:22 pm"
Again, respectfully, I disagree.

We Need To Talk About Hans.

Are we really not allowed to discuss Hans' work unless he invites us to, in case we offend? I'd strongly argue "no". 
[/quote]

it isn't about what we're _allowed_ to do. It is about what whether doing so shows class. Less successful composers dissing more successful composers work on a forum is an act that lacks class, especially when the person is in the house. It's like passing gas in a crowded room.

I know, it is a forum. This is just one of the many topics here I am out of sync with the mainstream. I accept that and will move on, but man, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


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## Dan Mott (Jun 16, 2013)

Deleted


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## Dan Mott (Jun 16, 2013)

Scrianinoff @ Sun Jun 16 said:


> midi_controller @ Sun 16 Jun said:
> 
> 
> > Seriously, this thread is getting ridiculous.
> ...




..... and deleted


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## germancomponist (Jun 16, 2013)

This thread started with an ugly headline and the first post also was not formulated nice. After listening again to the music the thread opener exchanged the headline and also his first post into the opposite. .... 

So, people who do not know this can get confused quickly. 

The discussion here maybe worth it, but for my understanding it is now the wrong headline for this discussion.


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## KMuzzey (Jun 16, 2013)

<waiting for someone to complain about the price of the score.....>


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## dcoscina (Jun 16, 2013)

I listened to the whole soundtrack on headphones today and really enjoyed it. Teraforming has a great energy and build to it especially at its conclusion which reminds me of Strauss. 

I'm glad I bought the expanded edition in addition to the official release. The sonic quality of the music is quite impressive and I, appreciating the idea behind the drummers. There is a rhythmic thematic figure that I heard recalled through the score which gives it that cohesion.

I really like that synth patch on Looking to the Stars and had some of us (me included) not been so flippant with our remarks, I'm sure Hans would have given us some insight into some of the sounds and production behind this score. Sorry guys.....


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## germancomponist (Jun 16, 2013)

KMuzzey @ Sun Jun 16 said:


> <waiting for someone to complain about the price of the score.....>


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## RasmusFors (Jun 16, 2013)

I really liked the score, and I still think that Zimmer is the best composer in the industry when it comes to big blockbuster scores.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 16, 2013)

*Re: Question for Hans*

Lovely music! Congratulations!

I am still going through the music and finding new stuff all the time. I saw the movie and had a question about a particular sound used by the Gravity Weapon for terraforming. 

This sound is used in the track Arcade (noticed it both in the movie and the album of course). Is this an example where you are working closely with the sound designer. Taking sounds from them or you decide to come up with some sounds which will work better if temo synced and hand it over to the sound effects guys?

The sound first appears on its own and then intertwined with the music.

I would love to hear more about this process specially because its not talked about much and you are one of very very few composers who collaborate with sound designers on a sonic level.


Thanks.

Tanuj.


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## Rctec (Jun 16, 2013)

Frankly-h, why don't you put the original post back up?
I don't mind you not liking what I did. But - wow, (not that i can remember the details of your original post) that seems like a bit of a 180 degree turn on a second listen...
On the other hand, I always thought that this forum was about composers helping composers become better at doing their music. If I want to read a full-blown critique of my score, I wouldn't really want it to be here. I thought we where composers and musicians who actually make music, as opposed to critics that, well...do nothing much creatively other than critique. Which, on a broad blockbuster like MOS doesn't really mean that much. 
Look, the soundtrack is hugely successful, and so is the movie. I felt really rather honored when WB marketing started to rely more and more on just the score for the last couple of trailers. That meant that the music resonated in a big way with the audience they tried to attract. They didn't just put it in 'cause they couldn't afford to pay for trailer music... But it puts quite a burden on the music, too, carrying such a large part of the campaign.
If you have any problems understanding what I tried to do, here is a little article:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/movi ... e/2418159/ 
There are lots more. Google is your friend 

If you didn't like it, you didn't like it. Don't flip flop in the wind.
I think all music is indefensible. you can't talk anyone into liking it. It either resonates with you or not.
-H-


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## jeffc (Jun 16, 2013)

I think the score is, no surprise, great, unexpected, unique, all the things that Hans brings to the table and why he is at the top of the game.

As I sit here trying to write today, on a much smaller scale, trying to bow a xylophone, some homemade percussion, and a guitar with a ton of strange fx boxes - trying to come up with a unique concept for a score. I wonder what this process must be like when only your imagination is the limit. To somehow sit and dream up - yes, how about a drum circle with 12 of the best drummers on the planet - and actually have the resources to do it must be liberating. How incredibly exciting and unlimited that must be, or is the conceptual struggle just the same? I only hope to find out someday....

JC


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## Rctec (Jun 16, 2013)

the drum circle was just paid scale...if you have a seductive idea, they'll all come.

Now, the eight pedal steel players...that was a little hard 
-H-


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## jleckie (Jun 16, 2013)

Hans,

Your sketches (2nd disc) are simply beautiful and very inspiring. I can listen to those all day.

-jay


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## Frankly-h (Jun 16, 2013)

Rctec @ Sun Jun 16 said:


> Frankly-h, why don't you put the original post back up?
> I don't mind you not liking what I did. But - wow, (not that i can remember the details of your original post) that seems like a bit of a 180 degree turn on a second listen...
> On the other hand, I always thought that this forum was about composers helping composers become better at doing their music. If I want to read a full-blown critique of my score, I wouldn't really want it to be here. I thought we where composers and musicians who actually make music, as opposed to critics that, well...do nothing much creatively other than critique. Which, on a broad blockbuster like MOS doesn't really mean that much.
> Look, the soundtrack is hugely successful, and so is the movie. I felt really rather honored when WB marketing started to rely more and more on just the score for the last couple of trailers. That meant that the music resonated in a big way with the audience they tried to attract. They didn't just put it in 'cause they couldn't afford to pay for trailer music... But it puts quite a burden on the music, too, carrying such a large part of the campaign.
> ...



I really hope you read this Hans.
I'm really thrilled that I'm answering to you, and also a little sad that It had to be in this kind of occasion.(You are one of the reasons that I got into music in the first place, and this might sound cheesy or crazy, but if there are three people that greatly affected my life, your are definitely one of them.) 
Truth be told, I never had the intention to be provocative or offensive, nor did I think that this post would get this amount of attention. 
The reason why I changed my post was that I realized, as many others said, that it was crass to critique(not that it matters) the score here, where you are a member. You thought right, it was my mistake.
I agree with all you said, and you are right, I shouldn't flip flop  
The fact the you took the time to address a 20 year old nobody is beyond words.
Thank you.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 16, 2013)

Hans, it blows my mind that you would give an iota of a crap what some anonymous person says in a forum (positive or negative), but I guess it's part of what makes you you.


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## Cowtothesky (Jun 16, 2013)

I absolutely love this score. So inspiring. Hans brought Superman into the future. The notes playing off the tonic and going up to the fifth, sixth, and seventh... This was Superman. Those notes. Amazing musical interpretation. 

I was watching an interview of Hans last year and I think it was just after it was announced he was going to be working on Man of Steel. The look on his face. He said he was terrified because he had no idea what he was going to do. It was so good to see someone this successful feeling exactly how I do when I get a new project and don't have any idea of what I'm going to do yet. 

Great film. Great score. I'm glad it is doing well at the box office.


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## mpalenik (Jun 16, 2013)

Cowtothesky @ Sun Jun 16 said:


> The notes playing off the tonic and going up to the fifth, sixth, and seventh...



I don't remember that part, but I guess I don't have a copy of the soundtrack. . .


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## IvanP (Jun 17, 2013)

Guys....yeah, I'm an ass, but, seriously, this has been looking like a kindergarten for some dozens of posts already. 

Hans' posts suggest to me that he is showing some wear having to reply to childish posts. 

We are incredibly fortunate to have him on board and give some truly million dollar advices, comments and suggestions geared at us, composers, about his work, business, etc.

Just like we have our own Colin O' Malley, Thomas Bergersen, Craig Sharmat, Luca Thomas, Brian Ralston, Mike Verta, Mike Greene, Andrew K, Ron James and a TON of other excellent professionals that have shown their value and from which I, personally, have grown a ton throughout the years. 

Have we ever bashed or started a thread without their permission (unless it's for a praise or curiosity over some mix or mockup technique)? Have we ever used Topic Starters like "Hey guys, I wonder what COLIN O MALEY would think of my hommage mockup" or comments like "CRAIG SHARMAT, your JAZZ album sounds really good, but I'm disappointed I didn't find any classical development or Rock in it, knowing your orchestral and styles chops".

Hans has probably been lurking around enough time to know which people were bashers and suddenly (yeah 180º answers as he pointed out) they are praising it, I guess for fear or just to get his attention, as if this would be opening the doors to a job at RC. 

Really, guys, stop this kindergarten thread and get back to work and act like a pro (which doesn't mean you shouldn't give your opinion, but maybe wait for the composer to ask for it!) and pray for the guy not wanting to give up on keeping feeding us with some really useful advices, I repeat, just like a ton of other excellent pros and friends that have been doing exactly that over the years... Luca kindly warned about this at the begginning of this topic, yet it has gone berserker for while. Think about it. 

Just...don't ruin it guys /\~O


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## Tatu (Jun 17, 2013)

Well said, Ivan!

EDIT: Moved the rest to Guy's post (see below).


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 17, 2013)

FWIW, in the interests of peace and harmony I have set up an off topic thread to discuss the wider implications that have reared their head here. Suggest we keep this thread for actual comments on Man Of Steel?

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32216


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## wlotz (Jun 17, 2013)

I saw the film yesterday, it was good but it's not what I was mainly focused on :twisted: 

HZ just can't play wrong notes, he just can't. Even if it's wrong it still sounds right :evil: I hate it! Today is the day when I start hating his music because it's great and it pisses me off :evil:


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## jlb (Jun 17, 2013)

Rctec, it's bloody fantastic, simple as that. We are so grateful to even have you here on this forum and your insite. When a friend told me you were posting I thought it was some sort of hoax. I appreciate you are trying to make the kind of score that can stand as a listening experience on its own.

To anyone reading this, there are absolutely no flies on this bloke, he is the top film composer IN THE WORLD in my opinion, because he is always looking for a fresh approach and sound (eg the drum circle, endlessly copied from now on, no doubt). He can write something as beautiful as 'Now we are Free' from Gladiator to as exciting and driving as 'what are you going to do when you are not saving the world'. Just be grateful that he even bothers to look at this forum occasionally. Show some respect and class as Jay said.

JLB


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 17, 2013)

jlb @ 17/6/2013 said:


> Just be grateful that he even bothers to look at this forum occasionally.



IMO, everyone, even the top dog, can learn some things from reading our forum. I'm also sure that continued curiosity is one of the keys to long-term success, and this place is addictive for those who have never stopped learning.


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## dgburns (Jun 17, 2013)

@jeffc
I love your post because it is honest and you are describing what I just went through scoring a tv drama series.On the outset total terror(as always) cause I don't know what the hell it'll end up being.
In the end,alot of guitar which ,like you,I tried all sorts of ways to play to coax some form of score out of.Never thought so much about just how far one could get playing a rickenbacher,deluxe fender with a mxr distortion with an ebow for good measure.Just honest playing rubato mostly.Very liberating.

Wish more people would post what you did.(even if this should really go in a new thread,sorry boys)


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## jlb (Jun 17, 2013)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> jlb @ 17/6/2013 said:
> 
> 
> > Just be grateful that he even bothers to look at this forum occasionally.
> ...



We need advice from people like him, but he sure does not need this forum. The attitude of some is just crazy. I will wager there isn't a young aspiring composer in the world who wouldn't accept a job as tea boy at Remote Control. Yet some are keen to offer a critique of this soundtrack by the owner and founder of RC, who is giving very good advice in his own time free of charge. (Such as finding your own sound, recording techniques, the sharks and dreamers in the business etc). It is ridiculous.

The chances of getting to Hans level are extremely slim, the chances of getting to his level with this attitude are zero. What a tough business this is, to actually make some really good money. It strikes me the film business is just as much about how you relate to other people and get on with them, as it is about your music. Maybe it is the wrong attitude that will stop some people getting to the top, not their music. 

JLB


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## wlotz (Jun 17, 2013)

jlb @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Jun 17 said:
> 
> 
> > jlb @ 17/6/2013 said:
> ...



It's not just about music business, there's a lot of frustrated haters these days. The only thing they can do is to moan and hate. They're everywhere, quite a lot of them here in this forum too. No one tells you to love HZ or his music but at least show some respect to someone who achieved in this business more than most of you can even imagine.

W


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## matolen (Jun 17, 2013)

I should thank Hans Zimmer (really there are so many artists I wish I could thank) because I've been playing around with his MoS music and Williams' Superman music as a kind of ear training and orchestration etude for myself.

Anything that gets the creative synapses firing is a very good thing in my book!


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## Inductance (Jun 17, 2013)

> What do you think about Hans' Man of Steel?



Personally, I thought the movie and the score was awesome. And I'm digging all the drums and guitars on the album. I grew up a rock/metal guy, so I always try to find ways to sneak in drums and guitars into my music. Drum kits, though, really add a lot of energy to the material, and this can completely change the vibe, so I usually wind up turning them down until eventually I just mute them and go without them altogether. I think I've been inspired to give it another shot.

In the track "Flight," when the drums are pounding, the strings are bowing, the brass blowing, and the pedal steel is sliding...man, that always gets me. It makes me feel like pumping my fist or headbanging or something! =o _-) 

Hz, excellent work!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 17, 2013)

l haven't seen MOS, but a general comment...

Jay wrote:



> ...many people here still do not get it that a score's primary purpose is to serve the picture.



Right, and really good composers are able to write really good music to serve the picture!

Simple musical effects - or these days even non-musical (as opposed to unmusical) effects can be...effective. But there's something wrong if an entire film score consists of bad music from top to tail even if it does work with the picture.


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 18, 2013)

Nick, you took the words right out of my mouth. Of course serving the picture comes first. But what separates the great composers from the good ones is the ability to serve the picture and create music that is great on its own. Frankly, if a composer doesn't aspire to create great music as much as that is possible, he's doing something wrong. That's not being an artist, that's working in a wallpaper factory. Of course circumstances are always going to be different, there will be projects where the director dictates something very specific, or scenes where something is needed that isn't interesting on its own (although something like that wouldn't have to go on a soundtrack album).

Someone mentioned Jaws - I recently heard the Jaws 2 soundtrack for the first time, haven't ever seen the movie, and was blown away by it (and surprised by how little material was reused from the first one). Great music, and doesn't need picture to work.

<Gnat>
MOS: haven't seen it yet but have been listening to the soundtrack. I found it interesting that there's little if any woodwinds or trumpet in the score (maybe none? if there is, it's not much and it's buried in the mix). Doesn't even seem like there's much low brass, mainly just horns, although it sounds like probably some low brass doubled with synths. Thinking back, I can't remember if that's new to this soundtrack or if the three Batman scores were like that too, I'll have to listen for that next time I go back to those.

It also seems like there's something unusual going on with the strings in that main theme, when the violins come in on the triplets. The track is big and loud at that point, but the sound the violins are getting doesn't sound like loud playing, it sounds more like it's really soft and delicate and turned way up. There's some stuff in the low dynamic levels of Sable that I love that reminds me of that, but I can't put my finger on exactly what he did (maybe a layer of quiet col legno?). Great sound, I liked the combination of the big heroic track with something so subtle and detailed.
</Gnat>


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## Christof (Jun 18, 2013)

> The fact the you took the time to address a 20 year old nobody is beyond words.


??I am sure that you are not a nobody, and why shouldn't HZ not talk to "normal" people??


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## Echoes in the Attic (Jun 18, 2013)

Great soundtrack. Quite enjoyed the movie. "Flight" and "what are you going to do when you're not saving the world?" are excellent themes (same theme runs in both). Also the best parts of the movie. But that's probably because I like that tune so much. In fact I wish it was used more in the film! I sort of wish that that melody in the first half of "flight" was continued in the second part as well. It's the most epic melody in the movie for sure. I've had that tune in my head for a week!

But I also really love the simple clark kent piano theme which runs in a few of the songs and begins the "what are you going to do..." song. Such a simple and effective piece for the mood of the scenes, especially the end.


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## LFO (Jun 18, 2013)

I paid $17.99 on iTunes for the deluxe edition of Man of Steel after having listened to the previews. It was worth every penny. Don't tell Hans, but I would have gladly paid $25 for it.

The movie was good, the music was outstanding.

Kevin


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## Andrew Aversa (Jun 18, 2013)

Saw the film yesterday and really enjoyed it. I much preferred it to "Superman Returns", and I found this score to be more memorable as well. HZ has been an inspiration for me since I was a high school student and I think this is one of his very best works yet.


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## Cowtothesky (Jun 19, 2013)

As I said the other day, I love HZ's Superman score. 

I was browsing youtube and came across this video that layers the older Williams theme on top of Zimmers theme. Amazingly, it sounds pretty awesome together. lol

At about 1:40 it is played together:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIcou7ymI-4


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## SymphonicSamples (Jun 19, 2013)

If you flip the Man of Steel Symbol horizontally or vertically , you end up with a rather appropriate looking Z . There was only one man for the job


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 19, 2013)

Cowtothesky @ Wed 19 Jun said:


> As I said the other day, I love HZ's Superman score.
> 
> I was browsing youtube and came across this video that layers the older Williams theme on top of Zimmers theme. Amazingly, it sounds pretty awesome together. lol
> 
> ...



I don't mind this take either: http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=GVc2HyEHZOw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&amp;featu ... Vc2HyEHZOw)


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## Echoes in the Attic (Jun 19, 2013)

Jdiggity1 @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Cowtothesky @ Wed 19 Jun said:
> 
> 
> > As I said the other day, I love HZ's Superman score.
> ...



The music was matched much better in that one than the first, which was just a mess.


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## Madrigal (Jun 19, 2013)

Just saw the movie. The first half is interesting but I felt the second half was drowned in a fanfare of explosions and endless battles. It's as if the screenwriters brainstormed on how to make this movie "bigger and better" than the others and came to the conclusion that what they needed was more explosions, destruction, battles and rubble. 

The music is definitely a high point, though I felt it stands better on its own.First because you almost can't hear the music during the actions scenes. It's buried somewhere in all those explosion sfx. 

Also, the recurring piano father-son theme is always coming back in emotional moments which fail to elevate above the "cheesy-cliche" level and the theme certainly doesn't help, like it's telling you: feel the the sadness, the nostalgia and the love, because it ain't there without the music. 

Of course, those are not the composer's shortcomings, the soundtrack on its own actually makes the movie seem better than it is. It's time for Hollywood to start renewing itself, stop re-chewing what has been done before. 

I bought the score and love the sonic world that was created, DNA is an awesome track although it really reminds me of Elfman's main theme in Hulk. A good thing :wink: : 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rF5UBlq5vY&list=PL3ED021AB3599C868 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rF5UBlq ... AB3599C868)

Also love the fact that Hans released his sketchbook. It's awesome to hear the score in its inception and gives us a clear idea of the level of quality we should strive for when doing mockups. 

Thank you for that!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

zircon_st @ Tue Jun 18 said:


> Saw the film yesterday and really enjoyed it. I much preferred it to "Superman Returns"



A truly dreadful film.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

Mike Connelly @ Tue Jun 18 said:


> Nick, you took the words right out of my mouth. Of course serving the picture comes first. But what separates the great composers from the good ones is the ability to serve the picture and create music that is great on its own. Frankly, if a composer doesn't aspire to create great music as much as that is possible, he's doing something wrong. That's not being an artist, that's working in a wallpaper factory. Of course circumstances are always going to be different, there will be projects where the director dictates something very specific, or scenes where something is needed that isn't interesting on its own >



Several problems with this:
1. As we have seen time and time again, there is little consensus even here among composers as to what is great music, never mind directors and producers.

2. Mandated slavish adherence to temp tracks.

3. Exalted love for sound fx in today's directors/producers.

4. The simple fact that music that is unimpressive to listen to as it appears in the film, which unless it is a big budget film is all that it will be mixed as, may well serve the picture better than better music.

5. The overall level of skill and craft of today's composer is considerably lower than thirty years ago because the technology has made it easier to turn out something that sounds decent.


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## Inductance (Jun 19, 2013)

Madrigal @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Also love the fact that Hans released his sketchbook. It's awesome to hear the score in its inception and gives us a clear idea of the level of quality we should strive for when doing mockups.



Yes, exactly.

Also, somewhat related... In messing around with the Zplus MOS app, I rediscovered the Dark Knight Rises app. Apparently, I hadn't realized that all the "Origins" tracks are also sketchpad-type material from TDKR! In all, there's almost an hour's worth of material. Lots of good stuff. I can't believe I hadn't listened to this... I think when I first downloaded the app, I listened to the interviews and then forgot about it.


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## Jimbo 88 (Jun 19, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Mike Connelly @ Tue Jun 18 said:
> 
> 
> > 5. The overall level of skill and craft of today's composer is considerably lower than thirty years ago because the technology has made it easier to turn out something that sounds decent.




Totally disagree...i think technology has made it easier to create "sounds" and sounds tend to become boring and disposable as opposed to performed music that you can listen to over and over again.

The abilities, skill and craft of composers are there...and waaay better than ever. The business end and the constant "race to the bottom" so bigger profits can be had by fewer is a much larger factor. But it is what it is...so complain or make it better.

Back to the topic at hand...

The MOS score is OUTSTANDING......


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## mark812 (Jun 19, 2013)

Jimbo 88 @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Mike Connelly @ Tue Jun 18 said:
> 
> 
> > 5. The overall level of skill and craft of today's composer is considerably lower than thirty years ago because the technology has made it easier to turn out something that sounds decent.
> ...



It's debatable. Different times, different styles. It's like comparing Miklós Rózsa with Bryan Tyler or Leni Riefenstahl with Zack Snyder. 

But I tend to agree with Mike's comment if we're discussing composition skills in general, even though it doesn't matter much in this context. Composing skills are one thing, but technology skills are almost equally important nowadays imo.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

I wrote "sounds decent" , not comparable to performed music, which is good enough to satisfy much of the marketplace.

And IMHO there is not even one film composer under the age of 60 that I can think of who can play picture AND write terrific music in a huge range of styles as guys like Goldsmith, Elmer Bernstein, etc. could. The level of craft of film composition is way down as the focus has become so much on production and sample manipulation.

OK, I said all I wanted to say so au revoir to this thread for me.


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 19, 2013)

Just to be clear, these comments are a response to Jay's post and not a commentary on the MOS score.



EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> 1. As we have seen time and time again, there is little consensus even here among composers as to what is great music, never mind directors and producers.



Of course. I'm saying the composer should at least aspire to making great music, not settle for cranking out stuff that is mediocre music and using "but it works to picture" as an excuse. If a composer really feels that a score only works to picture, why release a soundtrack album? Hans is quoted in this thread as saying his intention is for the music to work on its own as well.



> 2. Mandated slavish adherence to temp tracks.



Yep, as I said, the director can make demands that are limiting. But that's not always going to be the case, and a good composer should be willing to fight to do something more original than the temp track at least some of the time.



> 3. Exalted love for sound fx in today's directors/producers.



Same as above. And even if the music is buried in the film mix, it still can be decent music. Plus even if a film has scenes that are wall to wall SFX, it's not like the entire movie is going to be like that.



> 4. The simple fact that music that is unimpressive to listen to as it appears in the film, which unless it is a big budget film is all that it will be mixed as, may well serve the picture better than better music.



Not sure what your point is, that smaller budget films have the music mixed in a way specific to the film mix and doesn't translate well to a soundtrack? Or that there are situations where mediocre music works better to picture than "better music"?



> 5. The overall level of skill and craft of today's composer is considerably lower than thirty years ago because the technology has made it easier to turn out something that sounds decent.



That's a whole discussion in itself (and not really related to my comment). If that level isn't what it used to be, I think it's less the technology and more the budgets and time constraints (particularly the tendency to not lock down final timings until much closer to release - just look at what happened to the Star Wars prequel scores). And filmmakers and audiences just don't seem to place the same importance on scores that show off that same sort of "skill and craft".



Jimbo and Mark - that bit you have quoted was Jay, not me.


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## 667 (Jun 19, 2013)

Madrigal @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> I bought the score and love the sonic world that was created, DNA is an awesome track although it really reminds me of Elfman's main theme in Hulk. A good thing :wink: :
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rF5UBlq5vY&list=PL3ED021AB3599C868 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rF5UBlq ... AB3599C868)


I have loved that descending motif ever since I first heard it when I saw Hulk in the theater. Just completely perfect. I have to work very hard not to steal it every time I sit down at the keyboard. Especially if I have BWW loaded up. 

Absolutely hate the electronic elements and throat singing after that, but it doesn't ruin the genius of the first section for me.


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## Echoes in the Attic (Jun 19, 2013)

Just had to say that I was so wrapped up in paying attention to the music in the final scene of MOS that I totally missed the double meaning of the last two lines of dialogue before the credits. :oops:


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## mark812 (Jun 19, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> And IMHO there is not even one film composer under the age of 60 that I can think of who can play picture AND write terrific music in a huge range of styles as guys like Goldsmith, Elmer Bernstein, etc. could.



Not even John Powell?


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

mark812 @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:
> 
> 
> > And IMHO there is not even one film composer under the age of 60 that I can think of who can play picture AND write terrific music in a huge range of styles as guys like Goldsmith, Elmer Bernstein, etc. could.
> ...



i don't think he has _quite_ that same range, but he may indeed be one.

Either way, my point is, thirty years ago, there were probably fifty.

But let's let this go back on topic and continue via PMs for those who want to discuss it further.


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## re-peat (Jun 19, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> (...) The level of craft of film composition is way down as the focus has become so much on production and sample manipulation.
> 
> OK, I said all I wanted to say so au reovirus to this thread for me.


Not with you, Jay. The sort of ‘craft’ which impresses you as singularly crafty ― neo- and post-romantic, conventional orchestral work firmly rooted in the classical tradition ― may be less in evidence these days, yes (and thank **** for that, I’m inclined to say), but that does not mean that “the craft of film composing” has degenerated over the past 3 decades. It changed, sure. But if anything, I would argue that it got much richer, more diverse and adventurous than it ever was allowed to be before, in the entire history of movie music. And it remained every bit as crafty.

But yes, the composing style which relies on the particular craft which you rate so highly, is no longer the musical “lingua franca” of movies. Things have moved on. And a good thing they did too, in my view. It indicates, at the very least, that the art of film music is still very much alive.
If every movie being released today would still be scored à la manière de Bernstein, Rosza, Mancini or Williams, the artform would be completely dead and, in my opinion anyway, fully deserving of the derisory comments it is often greeted with. But it isn’t. It evolves. It branches out. It annexes new musical territories. It mirrors the age it lives in. And it does what film music needs to do today. 

Also, you seem to suggest that there is no craft required in good production and sound design/manipulation. Or, at least, that that craft is by definition intrinsically inferior to the craft required to write orchestral music. Again, I have to disagree strongly. 
But we’ve been here before many times already, so let’s maybe not dwell on this any longer.

Oh, and by the way and totally unrelated, but weren’t you the one who started giving people spelling lessons the other day? Then tell me, please, in which dictionary should one look up the words “au reovirus”?

(****: divinity of choice)
_


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

re-peat @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:
> 
> 
> > (...) The level of craft of film composition is way down as the focus has become so much on production and sample manipulation.
> ...



Yes, I am aware we think differently on this. I do not rate the craft of sample manipulation as equal to that of traditional orchestration. It is my prejudice, I know.

But considering his early use of synths, do you not agree that a guy like Goldsmith would acquire skills with that more quickly than a skilled sample manipulator would acquire his?

And apart from that, in general my biggest beef is that I don't think most film scores actually serve the picture as well as they used to, but that is of course a subjective judgement.

Psycho without the Hermann score, or Jaws without the Williams score, or To Kill A Mockingbird without the Bernstein score, etc. would be about 1/3 as effective. I can't think of too many modern films that need their _specific_ score as much to be almost as effective.

And you will admit that you know that was a typo unless you are being dishonest in favor of snide.

But we really should start a new thread if we are going to continue this.


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## germancomponist (Jun 19, 2013)

I have got my CD today and I am so very much impressed! ASAP I will watch the film too.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 19, 2013)

> But we really should start a new thread if we are going to continue this



Why bother.

Jay, I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure the new conditions are as universally true as you believe.

Jerry Goldsmith and Elmer Bernstein also had to deal with temp tracks. Goldsmith wrote sound effect music that was still good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDRLtgr2T9E

Film music has its form dictated by the film, but we go to about 100 films a year at the Writers Guild, and I hear lots of impressive film music - and not just bombastic stuff. There's no situation in which shitty music is better for a scene than good music.

And I don't think it's true that "these kids today" are less skilled. Besides, Elliot Goldenthal is under 60.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 19, 2013)

Also, the films you mention that relied on their scores are rare exceptions. Yeah there are others - "A Man and a Woman," "Last Tango in Paris," and "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" are a few - but usually it's the other way around: sucky movies can't be saved by the score.


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## re-peat (Jun 19, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> (...) in general my biggest beef is that I don't think most film scores actually serve the picture as well as they used to (...)


Again, I very much disagree. As much as I adore Williams’ work from a strictly (and abstract) musical point of view, I also very much believe that very few of his masterpieces make for truly great filmscores. Williams’ best music first serves itself, as all great music does, and then the movie. (Williams is too much a composer to be a film composer, and he produced hours of film music which is way too sophisticated, clever, complex, inspired and unrestrained for its own ‘filmic’ good. In other words; Williams, when at his musical best, not necessarily serves the picture best.)

But whenever Williams, or any other of the composers which you mention, do manage to get inside the movie and ‘serve the picture’, they nearly always do so in a way that is very reminiscent of (traditional) opera. That is to say: by underlining and even magnifying the artificiality of the three-fold marriage (story+visuals+music) rather than by aiming for a truly authentic filmic “component-dissolving fusion”.
All filmmusic (great or less great) from, say, the earliest years up until the last few decades or so, always remains an isolated presence within the film. Inevitably so, due to the tradition out of which film music grew. Effective? Yes. Magical? Sure. Gripping? Without any doubt. Indispensable? Absolutely. But … isolated and, to a certain degree, detached nonetheless. (Sometimes ridiculously so even, as many directors were all too aware of.)

What is happening today on the other hand, is something entirely different and actually quite historic: by tapping sonical resources of boggling diversity (some musical, others less so), by exploring the dramaturgical power of seemingly non-musical ingredients and by diffusing the lines where sounddesign crosses over into composition and vice versa, scores are now able to nest much deeper inside the film than they were ever able to before. So deep in fact that, at times, the score, sound fx and foley (and sometimes even the dialogue) can blend and almost become one single, complex dramaturgical texture.

Which is precisley why I believe that today, for the first time in film music’s history, dedicated composers have hit upon an idiom, a language, a grammar, a vocabularly that they can call truly their own. And not only that, but it’s also a language which is entirely created and fine-tuned to suit the medium for which it was developed, and no other. Never before in the history of film music has this happened. Before, you either had neo-Strauss (Richard), ersatz Mahler, pseudo-Stravinsky, mock-Ravel, warmed-up Tchaikovsky, plagiarized Rachmaninov, mutilated Gershwin, simile-jazz, watered down pop, etc … but today we have something else: genuine, 100% pure “musical sound for the cinema”. And because of what it is and how it came to be, it is capable, in the right hands anyway, of serving today’s pictures much better than any traditional orchestral score ever could. (I’m not saying we’re overflowing with great music these days, I’m merely saying that today, film music has evolved in such a way that it reached a stage where it is much better equipped to serve the pictures of its age than film music of yesteryear ever could.)

The way I see it: as long as film music was unable to cut its umbilical cord by which it remained attached to its many ancestral idioms, styles and traditions (opera, symphonic poems, ballet, musical, jazz, rock and pop) ― and, despite their unquestionnable musical greatness, none of the composers which you mention were ever able to apply their scissors to such effect (if that was ever their intention to begin with of course, which I doubt) ―, film music, as an artform, was always doomed to remain an imperfect, never quite fully developed species. But over the past decade or so, that umbilical cord got finally cut. Again, as a lover of ‘good, traditionnaly crafted music’, you may not like the result, and I do agree that we may have sacrificed a certain “intrinsic musical splendour” along the way, but there is no denying that film music has now acquired an identity that (1) is unmistakebly its own, (2) needn’t any longer be applied according to old-fashioned ‘operatic’ conventions, and (3) has such a wealth of musical and non-musical resources at its disposal that ― provided these are applied with flair, talent and passion, of course ― it is far better suited to “serve (and even become one with) the picture” than was ever before possible in the entire history of movies.

_


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> > But we really should start a new thread if we are going to continue this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Unfortunately, I cannot expand on my points further without critically calling out examples, which I am not wiling to do on a public forum, so I have to just leave it.


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## quantum7 (Jun 19, 2013)

I just watched the film this morning and loved all the special FX. HZ's soundtrack was OK, but did nothing in particular for me, but perhaps it is because the original 1978 John William motifs were just so memorable that I was perhaps expecting for some distinct melodies in the score. 

Some of my all-time favorite composers like Bach, Beethoven, and Vangelis...as genius composers that they are.....did/do not always write pieces that are universally loved. HZ has written so many incredible scores that I cherish as a soundtrack buff that it really doesn't matter to me personally if a few here and there do not "wow" me. It would simply be impossible to continually do that when you have to write 2 hours of music in such little time, not to mention I would assume HZ doesn't have 100% free reign in writing those scores. I'm watching Gladiator right now while typing this, and HZ's soundtrack on that still touches me emotionally.


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## toomanynotes (Jun 19, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> re-peat @ Wed Jun 19 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:
> ...





of course music trends have changed, for the best? hahaha no no....it's just that young entrepreneurs like the yuppies with golden nappies that rule Hollywood think they are the next trend setters and they know whats best for YOU..i think you bought into that.. Just listen to the top 20 hits.... they were born yesterday and have not heard a classic score...and sadly never will appreciate. Money talks baby...quality walks. Loudness rules.

I dare say composers had more control back then...therefore more creativity...

What a crock of shit to assume that all music of 'that' era was based on classical tradition is old school... lalo schifrin? hello? 

And Today? dont get me started.

if trends ever reverse back to a thinking mans music, i would be the first to say 'thank **** for that.'

Having said that...Hollywood needs new original talented writers asap...that might help to heighten the average score you hear nowadays...or samples...whatever rocks your boat.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 19, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Mike Connelly @ Tue Jun 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Nick, you took the words right out of my mouth. Of course serving the picture comes first. But what separates the great composers from the good ones is the ability to serve the picture and create music that is great on its own. Frankly, if a composer doesn't aspire to create great music as much as that is possible, he's doing something wrong. That's not being an artist, that's working in a wallpaper factory. Of course circumstances are always going to be different, there will be projects where the director dictates something very specific, or scenes where something is needed that isn't interesting on its own >
> ...





Jay,

Not everyone is going to agree to what great music is. There is so much stuff out there that is brilliant and dreadful as well. 

Temp Tracks come from before as well. Avid has made it easy to just put it in and see how it works. But the guys who really know how to make films and care about it, don't usually ask to just copy something. All good film makers I have worked with have always demanded a new sound with references of course many times because that is the only way they feel they can communicate. Its better sometimes to talk about the story, the emotion that a scene needs. And with time, you get comfortable with directors and producers. They do listen to you but you must earn their trust at times. I am just now recording samples for an upcoming project on my own cost because it will be difficult to ask them to give me money to record 40 Nashik Dhols (Indias answer to taikos). If they like it, I think they just might pay for it!

I feel that technology has made it harder. Poorly composed and programmed music sounds very bad immediately with samples and what you call SFX music. I come from also a electroacoustic music background. Its not sfx music. Its just a new kind of music and there is a lot of good stuff that comes out from it. I personally departed from that after taking the best I could and wanted to do more musical sounding stuff. But it does not make that wrong.

Technology is a friend, not an enemy. I rarely see bad composers getting top jobs repeatedly. And even if they do, what does it matter to any one of us?

If you want to make the best music possible, do it. But as I have learnt in the last few years, the best way to do is within the system and prove your worth with hard work, dedication and new ideas. At the end of the day, somebody is always putting a lot of money behind a project and its normal for them to feel insecure at times. But if they find a friend in you, then its easier to work from there. 

I always feel that Directors and Producers are our friends, not enemies. Just dont work with the bad ones. They wont go far anyway!

Plenty of other great people to work with. 

Early on, John Williams and many other talented composers did the best they could with their training and had themes, orchestration chops. Now the concept is not limited to themes and how you twist them all the time or how well you know your counterpoint? Its about a concept for the whole film - the sound. I think we live in incredibly exciting times.

Jay you also miss an important point - Movies have changed. We have changed and the world has changed. Things change. There are so many movies made that cannot be temped with anything John Williams has ever written. 

There is no one composer who can do it all I am sure. Its a big community with lots of different films being made.

But in the end, its the last man standing and you will need a lot of talent, hard work, determination to be that guy. 

Mr. Nolan or Spielberg are not going to work with someone who uses a couple of pads from Omnisphere and a few loops from action strings. 

It will never happen. 

Work on a film is a union of the talents and philosophies of the director and the composer. Then comes the music which hopefully works on its own and serves the film.

I do understand what you mean. There is a lot of poorly composed music out there but thats because a lot more people have access to software that is cheap and a computer. Its true. I agree.

But it does not mean, they will work with other talented filmmakers or get the top jobs. 

Like I said, I have not seen bad composers get top jobs all the time. 

Whether the music of a particular movie moves you, its subjective and does not always mean its because the composer was not talented enough. 


Best,

Tanuj.


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## George Caplan (Jun 19, 2013)

i dont get any of this. to care about the music i would have thought you would need to care about the film. i used to read superman and dc comic books in the nineteen fifties. why does anyone care about this shit? this is childrens stuff you put away when reach pubity. they made this film 10 times already. these films are puerile nonsense.


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## quantum7 (Jun 19, 2013)

George Caplan @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> i dont get any of this. to care about the music i would have thought you would need to care about the film. i used to read superman and dc comic books in the nineteen fifties. why does anyone care about this shit? this is childrens stuff you put away when reach pubity. they made this film 10 times already. these films are puerile nonsense.



:roll: I'm 44 and I saw it with my father, who is 70. I guess we both enjoy "children's stuff" since we both loved the movie.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

_1. Not everyone is going to agree to what great music is. There is so much stuff out there that is brilliant and dreadful as well. 
_
I said that.

_2. Technology is a friend, not an enemy. I rarely see bad composers getting top jobs repeatedly. And even if they do, what does it matter to any one of us?
_
I write books, articles, and columns on it, so I know that. But just like a machine gun in the wrongs hands does more damage than a musket, so it is with music technology  And it matters to some of "us" because e care about the craft.

_3. Jay you also miss an important point - Movies have changed. We have changed and the world has changed. Things change. There are so many movies made that cannot be temped with anything John Williams has ever written. 
_
Not all change is progress.

_4. There is no one composer who can do it all I am sure. Its a big community with lots of different films being made._

Actually, I think Goldsmith could.

But in the end, its the last man standing and you will need a lot of talent, hard work, determination to be that guy. 

5._ Mr. Nolan or Spielberg are not going to work with someone who uses a couple of pads from Omnisphere and a few loops from action strings._ 

That is the top of the food chain where most composers, good or bad, will never feed.

_6. Work on a film is a union of the talents and philosophies of the director and the composer. Then comes the music which hopefully works on its own and serves the film.

I do understand what you mean. There is a lot of poorly composed music out there but thats because a lot more people have access to software that is cheap and a computer. Its true. I agree.

But it does not mean, they will work with other talented filmmakers or get the top jobs. 

Like I said, I have not seen bad composers get top jobs all the time. 

Whether the music of a particular movie moves you, its subjective and does not always mean its because the composer was not talented enough. 
_

Here we are in agreement.


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## Samulis (Jun 19, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> _3. Jay you also miss an important point - Movies have changed. We have changed and the world has changed. Things change. There are so many movies made that cannot be temped with anything John Williams has ever written.
> _
> Not all change is progress.



Mmmm... the CG is definitely nice though.  

I do think there is a bit of simplification going on throughout all media- film and games, and as result, the material accompanying them. This simplification seems to make it easier for more people to understand and access the content, but I question as to if it really advances the quality of the content.

What was a film like the old classic "Intolerance" compared to its contemporaries? What is it compared to epic films now? You don't see 4,000 extras lining a giant city completely built on set. You see 20 guys and then a bunch of CG characters. Is this progress? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Same with music. You don't have a bunch of musicians playing improvised excerpts from classical music in the front of the hall while you watch to mask up the sound of the projector and follow the action. You have an orchestra or some synths or something going on (perhaps even in some cases, an entirely virtual production) cued to the movie- a constant, reliable score that will never change after the final cut.

After reading this, I'd tend to side with Jay. However, comparing people like Hans to, say, Max Steiner or even a later individual such as Williams as the case might be, I would think is more like comparing apples to oranges. As Tanuj said, movies have changed and so have the people making them and scoring them (as well as the most important part- the audience). You can't really qualify film score as "better" or "worse" as good film score, as it should be, is a reflection of the film, and that, as it should be, is a reflection of the audience it is designed for. A larger audience with a smaller musical and literary vocabulary on average means the same for films and film score. Just food for thought.

As for Hans, I think he's a fine composer, although I have yet to hear the score you are all discussing (I've heard a lot of his previous works). It means more to me with film music when someone can get a message across than how many music theory concepts they can hit upon in a single minute.

-Sam


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## Cowtothesky (Jun 19, 2013)

Jdiggity1 @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Cowtothesky @ Wed 19 Jun said:
> 
> 
> > As I said the other day, I love HZ's Superman score.
> ...



Pretty cool! I didn't like the drum and bass added to that track though, but definitely an interesting take on it.


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## Lex (Jun 19, 2013)

Saw it last night, movie was fun with stunning visuals, score was great, but very hard to hear in the mix. 

Was anybody else not pleased with how this movie was mixed? To me it sounded as if both fx and music are constantly playing as loud as possible, then all of it is just squished trough multiband limiters? I'm trying to figure out if this was my projectionist being enthusiastic and pushing the Dolby Atmos to its breaking point, or this is how the movie was mixed. 

alex[/offtopic]


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## Jordan Gagne (Jun 19, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> The level of craft of film composition is way down as the focus has become so much on production and sample manipulation.



You bring up an interesting point but I don't agree. The top level composers have interns and assistants do their mockups, and engineers for their mixes. And in the end the final product will be a live orchestral recording most of the time (unless you're Hans of course).


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## ceemusic (Jun 20, 2013)

Lex @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> Saw it last night, movie was fun with stunning visuals, score was great, but very hard to hear in the mix.
> 
> Was anybody else not pleased with how this movie was mixed? To me it sounded as if both fx and music are constantly playing as loud as possible, then all of it is just squished trough multiband limiters? I'm trying to figure out if this was my projectionist being enthusiastic and pushing the Dolby Atmos to its breaking point, or this is how the movie was mixed.
> 
> alex[/offtopic]



Maybe it was a bit squashed in mastering too?


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## Lex (Jun 20, 2013)

ceemusic @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> Lex @ Thu Jun 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Saw it last night, movie was fun with stunning visuals, score was great, but very hard to hear in the mix.
> ...



Thats why Im asking if anyone else had the same experience. I'm gonna go see it again in ordinary Dolby anyhow, so I'll see if it feels any different. 

alex


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 20, 2013)

Jordan Gagne @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:
> 
> 
> > The level of craft of film composition is way down as the focus has become so much on production and sample manipulation.
> ...



True for the top level. It is what used to be the mid-level composer pool where I think this is more evident.


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## Ed (Jun 20, 2013)

I scammed the thread and couldnt see anyone post this already:


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## Diffusor (Jun 20, 2013)

re-peat @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:
> 
> 
> > (...) in general my biggest beef is that I don't think most film scores actually serve the picture as well as they used to (...)
> ...



I will have to disagree on the Williams things. Jaws? Served the movie perfectly and the theme is iconic and simple and memorable. All his Star Wars stuff is bombastic and epic exactly as it should have been.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 20, 2013)

I will only add that IMHO anyone who thinks that over the course of his long career, John Williams' scores have not pretty consistently served the pictures he has scored remarkably well knows little about the craft of playing picture.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 20, 2013)

One thing I find interesting about Williams/Zimmer is the way that film music melodies used to cross over into the mainstream. The various Star Wars themes were everywhere in pop culture back then, and to an extent still are part of mainstream music in a similar way to Also Sprach Zarathustra after it was used in 2001, A Space Odessey. Will the themes from Inception be used in pop culture 30 years from now, and will people immediately recognize them as coming from the movie, or has the nature of film music and pop culture changed to the extent where that's no longer possible or even desirable?

I'm sure I'm missing plenty of other stuff, but the most pop culture referential Zimmer film music I can think of was the lovely marimba pieces that went into True Romance.
A good friend of mine went down the wedding aisle to that music.


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## Diffusor (Jun 20, 2013)

I thought this was pretty funny.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X18u6gZhBis


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## rpaillot (Jun 20, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> One thing I find interesting about Williams/Zimmer is the way that film music melodies used to cross over into the mainstream. The various Star Wars themes were everywhere in pop culture back then, and to an extent still are part of mainstream music in a similar way to Also Sprach Zarathustra after it was used in 2001, A Space Odessey. Will the themes from Inception be used in pop culture 30 years from now, and will people immediately recognize them as coming from the movie, or has the nature of film music and pop culture changed to the extent where that's no longer possible or even desirable?
> 
> I'm sure I'm missing plenty of other stuff, but the most pop culture referential Zimmer film music I can think of was the lovely marimba pieces that went into True Romance.
> A good friend of mine went down the wedding aisle to that music.



Pirates Of The Caribbean He's A Pirate ? Thats a tune everybody know !


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## NYC Composer (Jun 20, 2013)

rpaillot @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Jun 20 said:
> 
> 
> > One thing I find interesting about Williams/Zimmer is the way that film music melodies used to cross over into the mainstream. The various Star Wars themes were everywhere in pop culture back then, and to an extent still are part of mainstream music in a similar way to Also Sprach Zarathustra after it was used in 2001, A Space Odessey. Will the themes from Inception be used in pop culture 30 years from now, and will people immediately recognize them as coming from the movie, or has the nature of film music and pop culture changed to the extent where that's no longer possible or even desirable?
> ...



I was referring to score melodies-but I'm woefully uneducated here, as I haven't seen any of the POTC series, arg! Is that piece a song or an instrumental score?


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 20, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> One thing I find interesting about Williams/Zimmer is the way that film music melodies used to cross over into the mainstream. The various Star Wars themes were everywhere in pop culture back then, and to an extent still are part of mainstream music in a similar way to Also Sprach Zarathustra after it was used in 2001, A Space Odessey. Will the themes from Inception be used in pop culture 30 years from now, and will people immediately recognize them as coming from the movie, or has the nature of film music and pop culture changed to the extent where that's no longer possible or even desirable?
> 
> I'm sure I'm missing plenty of other stuff, but the most pop culture referential Zimmer film music I can think of was the lovely marimba pieces that went into True Romance.
> A good friend of mine went down the wedding aisle to that music.



I'd say that from the early 70s to mid 90s, almost every theme famous enough to be whistled by the milkman was composed by JW. Interesting to compare with Back To The Future - I score I ADORE - but jeepers that melody is pretty complex. The apparently effortless simplicity of JW's themes from that era was genius.


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## quantum7 (Jun 20, 2013)

John Williams- Jaws, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Star Wars, India Jones, The Empire Strikes Back, Superman, Harry Potter, & Jurassic Park- It's amazing how many scores he has written that one can so easily whistle or hum and it be so easily recognized. No other movie composer comes close IMO.


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 20, 2013)

rpaillot @ Fri 21 Jun said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Jun 20 said:
> 
> 
> > One thing I find interesting about Williams/Zimmer is the way that film music melodies used to cross over into the mainstream. The various Star Wars themes were everywhere in pop culture back then, and to an extent still are part of mainstream music in a similar way to Also Sprach Zarathustra after it was used in 2001, A Space Odessey. Will the themes from Inception be used in pop culture 30 years from now, and will people immediately recognize them as coming from the movie, or has the nature of film music and pop culture changed to the extent where that's no longer possible or even desirable?
> ...



But wasn't that Klaus? (or was it Hans' Gladiator score? :twisted: )


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 20, 2013)

re-peat, do you really think that about John Williams? I actually don't think I've seen anything he scored that *didn't* serve the film well.

Of course I love his out-Wagnering/Holsting Wagner and Holst stuff, but he's also written some unique music. "Missouri Breaks" and "Images," for example.

He's not an untalented idiot.

[Edit: not that you said he was.]


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## Peter Alexander (Jun 20, 2013)

quantum7 @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> John Williams- Jaws, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Star Wars, India Jones, The Empire Strikes Back, Superman, Harry Potter, & Jurassic Park- It's amazing how many scores he has written that one can so easily whistle or hum and it be so easily recognized. No other movie composer comes close IMO.



In this era. Pre-JW, Dmitri Tiomkin, Henry Mancini, Michel LeGrande, Lalo Schifrin, Max Steiner, Jerry Goldsmith - lots.


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## Rctec (Jun 20, 2013)

He a pirate is my little tune...it just has a checkerd history. But it's on my first demo (and maybe some other scores 
I gave the film the tune. Not klaus. But he hasn't quite figured it out...


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## Peter Alexander (Jun 20, 2013)

Miklos Rozsa discussing film composing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O9lCYM2Dh4


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 20, 2013)

Rctec @ Fri 21 Jun said:


> He a pirate is my little tune...it just has a checkerd history. But it's on my first demo (and maybe some other scores
> I gave the film the tune. Not klaus. But he hasn't quite figured it out...



:lol: Thanks for clearing that up!
That tune, is definitely whistle-able, not to mention instantly recognizable. I often give short demonstrations of 'screen music' to young school kids as part of a program i am involved with through Universities, and the way their faces light up when i play the first two bars of it at the piano... That's the reason i am pursuing this career.

My sincere thanks to you RcTec for bringing such joy and excitement to people around me, including myself.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 20, 2013)

> Temp Tracks come from before as well. Avid has made it easy to just put it in and see how it works.



...as anyone who's ever worked on a Moviola will attest!

You had to order two sound film transfers of every cue so that you had enough to cut in.

*sniff* Another lost art. *sniff*


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## NYC Composer (Jun 20, 2013)

In thinking about it, certainly one reason the Star Wars themes are so memorable is that they were played through (5? 6?) films of the same series, and the James Bond theme even more so. As someone who worked in commercials forever, I should have remembered that repetition is a big key to memorability.

Still, it strikes me that it's within the range of possibility that the ability to walk away whistling the tune from a film might actually be a detriment to modern film scoring-though I do believe it might help on Broadway. That, and a big helicopter or some such.


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## quantum7 (Jun 20, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> quantum7 @ Thu Jun 20 said:
> 
> 
> > John Williams- Jaws, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Star Wars, India Jones, The Empire Strikes Back, Superman, Harry Potter, & Jurassic Park- It's amazing how many scores he has written that one can so easily whistle or hum and it be so easily recognized. No other movie composer comes close IMO.
> ...



Good point! I guess I should have said in this era. Jerry Goldsmith for sure, though.


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## Peter Alexander (Jun 20, 2013)

quantum7 @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Thu Jun 20 said:
> 
> 
> > quantum7 @ Thu Jun 20 said:
> ...



Jerry - with a J.


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## ryanstrong (Jun 20, 2013)

I keep listening to Flight, such a uplifting and inspiring tune.

I love that it feels like it just continues to climb up and up and up... I guess that's a good thing because it's called Flight! The glide or portamento between the notes is great.

Great work Hans!


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## Ellywu2 (Jun 21, 2013)

Saw the film last night. Enjoyed it. Cavill has a jaw-line you could cut glass on.

Score was good - quite minimalist I found. It serves the film well. Little hints to Williams' score in there, not sure if they were intentional or just happy accidents.


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## Echoes in the Attic (Jun 21, 2013)

Just watched the press conference and I thought it was interesting that Zack Snyder had asked for "humble" music, I think for the piano theme that was used in the a lot of scenes with memories, sort of the clark kent theme. And Hans pulled that off so well. Such simple piano notes but so recognizable and memorable.


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## Gary Eskow (Jun 21, 2013)

Wow, this score is already on Spotify! Listening now...


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## toomanynotes (Jun 21, 2013)

Well i watched the movie...there was 13 ppl, and 4 left half way through...i couldn't afford to leave as i already spent £9 of my money...so i had to sit and endure the pain.

I too was once a pure teen kid enthralled by the magic of cinema projected upon me. Now im 40...how time flies ..ugly. Maybe its an age thing.


Hollywood needs an enema.


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## George Caplan (Jun 22, 2013)

toomanynotes @ Fri Jun 21 said:


> Well i watched the movie...there was 13 ppl, and 4 left half way through...i couldn't afford to leave as i already spent £9 of my money...so i had to sit and endure the pain.
> 
> I too was once a pure teen kid enthralled by the magic of cinema projected upon me. Now im 40...how time flies ..ugly. Maybe its an age thing.
> 
> ...



its crap. i keep telling you. i never can understand why people watch this kind of thing over and over agin. its totally ridiculous and time and money is wasted on this stuff.


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## midi_controller (Jun 22, 2013)

Maybe because some of us aren't so cynical? There was nothing "crap" about this movie. Yes, some of the logic doesn't make sense, some of it is by the numbers, but who cares? It's a movie, you are supposed to lose yourself in it. I thought it was great, there were moments that I was completely captivated, others that I was emotionally moved. That is all I ever ask of any film. I'm not sure what you expected.

The score worked really, really well in the film, hitting all the right buttons in all the right places. I dug it, and I'm glad I bought it.

I will say that I think that the budgets of these kinds of films is a bit crazy, but that is a discussion for another thread.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 22, 2013)

George Caplan @ 22/6/2013 said:


> its crap. i keep telling you. i never can understand why people watch this kind of thing over and over agin. its totally ridiculous and time and money is wasted on this stuff.



It's not the movies' fault, you just stopped being young at heart.


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## Ciaran Birch (Jun 22, 2013)

toomanynotes @ Fri Jun 21 said:


> Well i watched the movie...there was 13 ppl, and 4 left half way through...i couldn't afford to leave as i already spent £9 of my money...so i had to sit and endure the pain.
> 
> I too was once a pure teen kid enthralled by the magic of cinema projected upon me. Now im 40...how time flies ..ugly. Maybe its an age thing.
> 
> ...



"Endure the pain"? Think that's a little of an over-exaggeration don't you think? A friend of mine who is a director went with me to see it, and he had been unbelievably excited to see this. Was even sending me links to the trailers and score teasers every second day and booked us preview tickets. Came out of the cinema...he hated it. Editing, camera angles, character development. He couldn't say a good word about it And why? Because he had set himself up to see 'the' best film he had ever planned to see, and it didn't live up to that massive hype he had set himself. Eventually after a day or two he calmed down to give it a proper objective critique. I to be honest, was just mesmerised by the percussion, regardless of the visuals! Brought such a smile to my face. 

Now you can point out faults you noticed, or compare it to the Superman films of old and prefer the way they were portrayed. But in no way is it an 'enduring of pain' experience. You'd honestly swear you'd just come out of the dentist. And we all know that's not the case, even for the most dramatic members on this forum.


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## Darthmorphling (Jun 22, 2013)

Just left the theater and I thought it was a phenomenal film. The characters were very well written. 

It's amazing how people keep complaining about what others like. The world is a big place and there is a lot of variety. If you don't like something, don't watch it, and don't bitch when others do.

Now my eight year old did not like it. I think the underlying theme of the story was too much for his developmental level. He also said he doesn't like DC superheroes :evil: 

That was blasphemy and I just left him at the theater :mrgreen:


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## jleckie (Jun 22, 2013)

Now dialing child protective services. (which theater?)


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## passenger57 (Jun 22, 2013)

Couldn't wait to weigh in on this thread - I finally saw it. I liked Hans' score alot, it was a perfect marriage to the movie's spirit and style. Zod's low brass music was especially awesome.

My only complaint - the freaking shaky cam. Wasn't that a trend like 15 years ago on tv? Even on the subtle dialog scenes with Costner and son. At first that shaking was annoying and then started to piss me off. When the shaky cam comes in I remember that I'm watching a movie and not (in) the emotion of the movie, know what I mean?
Anyway, just my two cents.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 23, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> Just left the theater and I thought it was a phenomenal film. The characters were very well written.
> 
> It's amazing how people keep complaining about what others like. The world is a big place and there is a lot of variety. If you don't like something, don't watch it, and don't bitch when others do.
> 
> ...



I have no problem when someone likes a film I do not and I hope the opposite is true. People look for different things in movies.


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## toomanynotes (Jun 23, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> Just left the theater and I thought it was a phenomenal film. The characters were very well written.
> 
> Now my eight year old did not like it.



...and that's proof that some kids are brighter than others. You should embrace this fact.
o-[][]-o


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## mark812 (Jun 23, 2013)

toomanynotes @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> Darthmorphling @ Sat Jun 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Just left the theater and I thought it was a phenomenal film. The characters were very well written.
> ...



That's proof that taste in movies is subjective, just like many things in life.


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## toomanynotes (Jun 23, 2013)

midi_controller @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> The score worked really, really well in the film, hitting all the right buttons in all the right places. I dug it, and I'm glad I bought it.



I would rather call the score a best hits compilation. The sound balance between ost vs fx was amateur. I would have left the big fight scenes out. You see so much carnage and cgi on the screen, one does not need music anymore to amplify that. But maybe kids do..who knows.

In the old films, music worked great to accentuate and trigger your imagination to make up for lesser fx. Thats why Johnny boy owns everyone in this department.

There is no way this movie was ever going to be saved by a score. I cared only for Zod.

Today what you see is what you get. It's actually worse for composers to make an impression vs noise

Its all my opinion anyway, i earn lesson than $20 000 a year so who im i right??? haha


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## toomanynotes (Jun 23, 2013)

mark812 @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> toomanynotes @ Sun Jun 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Darthmorphling @ Sat Jun 22 said:
> ...


Agreed.


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## Ron Snijders (Jun 23, 2013)

Finally got to see the movie last night. I really liked it, but I'm a sucker for aesthetics, even when the story line might not be the best ever. (Then again, it's not meant to be a psychological drama, so expecting that would be flawed from the start.)

As for the score, I think it complemented the film very nicely, and I absolutely loved the simplistic power of the 'theme' that reoccurs throughout the movie. Hat tip to mr. Z


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## Ciaran Birch (Jun 23, 2013)

Ron Snijders @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> (Then again, it's not meant to be a psychological drama, so expecting that would be flawed from the start.)
> 
> As for the score, I think it complemented the film very nicely, and I absolutely loved the simplistic power of the 'theme' that reoccurs throughout the movie. Hat tip to mr. Z



+1 on both.


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## Ed (Jun 23, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> Now my eight year old did not like it. I think the underlying theme of the story was too much for his developmental level. He also said he doesn't like DC superheroes :evil:
> 
> That was blasphemy and I just left him at the theater :mrgreen:



Tell him he should grow up :lol:


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## Leosc (Jun 23, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> Now my eight year old did not like it. I think the underlying theme of the story was too much for his developmental level. He also said he doesn't like DC superheroes :evil:



To be fair though, I can understand him given the depressive themes and overblown drama of many of the recent superhero movies.


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## sherief83 (Jun 23, 2013)

I know I'm kinda late (couldn't afford the ticket until I got paid) and really it doesn't matter what my opinion is but I really enjoyed The man of steel score. I think Hans Really did a fantastic job and I found the score to work with the picture beautifully without hammering my head with useless orchestrations that don't really add anything to the film. A syndrome I suffer from personally when I score.

The film however left me cold. Zack Snyder should stick with linear story telling. The nonlinear editing just didn't make me connect with superman at all. Aside from the Kevin Costner scenes which were the most emotional, I think the best thing about it was the music.


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## passenger57 (Jun 23, 2013)

I agree - I would have enjoyed Costner's scenes and Hans' score much more if the camera wasn't shaking around the whole time like we we're watching some Discovery channel documentary


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## Darthmorphling (Jun 23, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> Darthmorphling @ Sat Jun 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Just left the theater and I thought it was a phenomenal film. The characters were very well written.
> ...



This wasn't directed at you, but a certain poster who keeps pointing out that certain subject matter is crap and a waste of time and money.

On a side not, my wife read my post from that other thread about childish things and being an adult. She told me I should go and get the action figure. I said you don't mind it in the living room? Her response was, "Well it would look much better next to your Darth Tater at school." She is awesome and yes I said Darth Tater. Look it up


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## NYC Composer (Jun 23, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jun 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Darthmorphling @ Sat Jun 22 said:
> ...



Wonderful that you got permission. Enjoy


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## Ellywu2 (Jun 24, 2013)

My only criticism was the sheer amount of lens flare used. God I hate lens flare - especially the digitally included flares - THEY DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!


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## Waywyn (Jun 24, 2013)

Ellywu2 @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> My only criticism was the sheer amount of lens flare used. God I hate lens flare - especially the digitally included flares - THEY DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!



It is funny how you complain about the physics of lens flares in a movie about a guy who can fly and stuff!


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## paaltio (Jun 24, 2013)

Rctec @ 2013-06-21 said:


> I gave the film the tune. Not klaus. But he hasn't quite figured it out...



Considering how popular a topic film composer gossip is whenever I meet my USC friends in LA, I'm surprised this slight zinger didn't get follow-up questions on this forum. But I'm sure it's best to leave it at that!


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## Ellywu2 (Jun 24, 2013)

Waywyn @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> Ellywu2 @ Mon Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> > My only criticism was the sheer amount of lens flare used. God I hate lens flare - especially the digitally included flares - THEY DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!
> ...



Haha good point!


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 24, 2013)

paaltio @ Mon 24 Jun said:


> Rctec @ 2013-06-21 said:
> 
> 
> > I gave the film the tune. Not klaus. But he hasn't quite figured it out...
> ...



I definitely took note.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 24, 2013)

Okay, we saw it last night.

It's nice to see a small film once in a while.


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## Dean (Jun 25, 2013)

its crap. i keep telling you. i never can understand why people watch this kind of thing over and over agin. its totally ridiculous and time and money is wasted on this stuff.[/quote]

Cause its fun Grinch!..jeez who stole your crayons?:wink: D


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 25, 2013)

Hans,

So I got my answer in the score leaflet finally:

World Engine Sound Design: Eric Norris



Tanuj.


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## Dietz (Jun 25, 2013)

Waywyn @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> Ellywu2 @ Mon Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> > My only criticism was the sheer amount of lens flare used. God I hate lens flare - especially the digitally included flares - THEY DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!
> ...


You owe me a cup of coffee - I just snorted with laughter. *_cleans up monitor_*


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## Consona (Jun 25, 2013)

Waywyn @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> Ellywu2 @ Mon Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> > My only criticism was the sheer amount of lens flare used. God I hate lens flare - especially the digitally included flares - THEY DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!
> ...


I didn't get that... Physics of lens flares is about filming technique, guy who can fly is content of story, there's nothing common for those two things.


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## dcoscina (Jun 25, 2013)

I was listening to MOS on the way to karate class last night and I must say it inspired me totally. 

Teraforming is a standout track IMO. I also love the quieter moments- they are quite poetic.


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## Consona (Jun 25, 2013)

I like the "Earth" track the most.


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## TomMartin (Jun 26, 2013)

"What do you think about Hans' Man of Steel? "

Couldn't hear it lol.


And my ears haven't stopped ringing for 2 days from the onslaught of sound FX.


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## jlb (Jun 26, 2013)

TomMartin @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> "What do you think about Hans' Man of Steel? "
> 
> Couldn't hear it lol.
> 
> ...



I couldn't either, it was drowned out by people being smashed through buildings. Far too much of that. The quieter stuff with Costner, Hans absolutely nailed it

JLB


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## TomMartin (Jun 26, 2013)

jlb @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> TomMartin @ Wed Jun 26 said:
> 
> 
> > "What do you think about Hans' Man of Steel? "
> ...



Hey, I've since had a chance to listen to the soundtrack alone, and I enjoyed it. A lot. And I absolutely hated the movie lol.


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## Hannes_F (Jun 26, 2013)

We went to Man of Steel yesterday. My wife (a non-musician) said the music was fantastic and that she listened to the closing credits all through with closed eyes. She said for her it was all in the music - the double tragedy of the dying world of Krypton and giving it finally up a second time at the end, the weight of responsibility, the fate, the significance. She expressed it very well imo.


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## Pingu (Jun 26, 2013)

Just got the soundtrack, and listened to it before seeing the film, which seems to be a crime here. Loved most of it, though I did feel Bane was back for some of the time.


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## Cowtothesky (Jun 26, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> We went to Man of Steel yesterday. My wife (a non-musician) said the music was fantastic and that she listened to the closing credits all through with closed eyes. She said for her it was all in the music - the double tragedy of the dying world of Krypton and giving it finally up a second time at the end, the weight of responsibility, the fate, the significance. She expressed it very well imo.



That is so cool. My wife would have looked at me with a puzzled expression and said, "what music?"


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## passenger57 (Jun 26, 2013)

> And my ears haven't stopped ringing for 2 days from the onslaught of sound FX.



I never goto the theatre these days without earplugs. Not good for the ol' tinnitus


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## lahdeedah (Jun 27, 2013)

TomMartin @ Wed Jun 26 said:


> jlb @ Wed Jun 26 said:
> 
> 
> > TomMartin @ Wed Jun 26 said:
> ...



THIS. I think that's it for me and blockbuster movies. The over-the-top-smash-everything-all-the-time SFX in MOS made me really worried for my ears. Hated the movie and had to watch the 1978 classic that same evening to get over it. 

Did love HZ's simple themes and the quiet parts.


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## dcoscina (Jun 27, 2013)

I can't get that beautiful melody on Goodbye My Son out of my head. I awoke to it singing in my head this morning. I bet it worked marvellously in the film. Terraforming still is one of my faves too.

That triplet drum figure that recaps throughout the score that I did t initially like is now like a percussive motif. I like how it's employed on If You Love These People.


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## woodsdenis (Jun 28, 2013)

Saw it today, really enjoyed it. Typical blockbuster fare , excellence all round, Direction, Music, Sound. 

The music was exactly what I expected, and more importantly was right for the movie, HUGE and epic to soft and atmospheric. Good job Hans and all the crew involved.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Jun 30, 2013)

I've ignored this thread until having been to see the film. I think he did a fantastic job, along with the whole production team. I kept trying to pay attention to the music, only to be sucked back into the story. As a media composer, Mr. Zimmer succeeds completely in this work. The music supports the work, and the visuals and audio play off each other quite well. I think he served the story well. I did suggest to my daughter that there were a lot of pixels harmed in the making of that movie - massive SFX damage scenes! Great summer blockbuster.


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## tmm (Jun 30, 2013)

Just saw this last night, and was blown away. I loved the movie. My one critique would be that it was moving along at terminal velocity / volume a little too often, but it was great. The actor that played Zod did a good job, but could have been better. Honestly I felt the same about Jor-El / Russell Crowe.

The music was fantastic, and perfectly served the movie. Which, of course, by my first comment, means that it was at full bore a little more than I would have liked, but that's what the movie called for.


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## mpalenik (Jul 1, 2013)

Since this seems to have just turned into a "comment on The Man of Steel" thread, rather than on the music specifically:

Zod should have asked Superman nicely for some blood, then set up on Mars.
Why do they want to remake the planet in a way that will remove their godlike superpowers?
Zod swears vengence at baby Superman, but seems to forget about it later on (he would have been nice to Superman, if he had let him destroy the earth)
Jor-El beats up Zod at the beginning? Then, Superman who has never previously felt a punch that can hurt him beats him up at the end?
Around the machine that is supposed to replicate the conditions of Krypton, weakening Superman, we see him perform his greatest feats of power.
Zod very slowly turns his head while shooting his heat vision. Can he not turn his eyes? Can the family not simply walk away?
Superman destroys dozens of skyscrapers, killing thousands without remorse, but screams in agony when he kills Zod?
Why do I care about any of these characters?

I'm not really sure in what sense this was better than Superman Returns, except for the effects.

I liked the music for the most part, though. Sometimes, it was kind of loud when combined with the sound fx, and all the crashing and pounding became a little tiring after a while.


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## quantum7 (Jul 1, 2013)

mpalenik @ Mon Jul 01 said:


> Since this seems to have just turned into a "comment on The Man of Steel" thread, rather than on the music specifically:
> 
> Zod should have asked Superman nicely for some blood, then set up on Mars.
> Why do they want to remake the planet in a way that will remove their godlike superpowers?
> ...


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## Lex (Jul 12, 2013)

Went to see it again, this time in a small 7.1 room and the mix was awesome which means the first time I saw it in big Atmos room the idiot in the projection room pushed the whole thing until it was limiting the dear life out of it self.

What an amazing score, and great movie....gonna see it again soon..
Btw, so many cues r not on the CD, really hope for a deluxe deluxe edition with these added later on..

alex


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## Ed (Jul 12, 2013)

mpalenik @ Mon Jul 01 said:


> Zod should have asked Superman nicely for some blood, then set up on Mars.



Stop being logical!! Nothing matters but the plot!!! :lol:

I think it would have made a better Hulk movie if you changed some of the details, with all the destruction.


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## Audio Birdi (Jul 12, 2013)

I've just been watching "Angels and Demons" and love how the final scene with Ewen McGregor in the helicopter blends so well with the score and suits what his happening within the scene itself. Very emotive and expressive. 

Melodically it does sound similar to MOS's "goodbye my son" and "I have so many questions". I'm presuming this was a basis since both movies involved the themes of "saving for the greater good"? (trying to avoid spoilers, sorry if i have actually ended up spoiling anyway :S)


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## zacnelson (Jul 15, 2013)

I thought some of you may enjoy this short video, which analyses the new and old Superman scores. I think it is very thoughtfully and enthusiastically done. The narrator likes both scores for different reasons and expresses his point of view nicely.

http://www.davechen.net/2013/07/superma ... racks.html


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## Arbee (Jul 20, 2013)

Finally saw the movie, wow! I took from the score, particularly the melodic / harmonic structure of the main motif, a contemporary, sonically stunning and yet simple balance of incredible power and gentleness - beautifully done Hans o-[][]-o

.


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Aug 13, 2013)

Ellywu2 @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> God I hate lens flare - especially the digitally included flares - THEY DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!



I haven't seen Man of Steel yet, but I couldn't agree more about the use of lens flare in general, especially in CGI scenes!

Perhaps the worst example of totally unnecessary use of lens flare, is the ridiculous monkey scene in Indiana Jones 4 (for those who don't know that horrible CGI scene, it's the Indiana Jones equivalent of Jar Jar Binks diving into the water in SW1, at least in terms of realism! It managed to ruin an already fatally flawed movie.).

I think artificial lens flare is like the cymbal in virtual orchestrations. It is used way too often, usually just to mask poor writing. Skilled orchestrators and composers use surprisingly little cymbal effects. For instance, if you look at Rachmaninoff's massive orchestral scores, you will find very few parts written for cymbal, and yet it 'feels' like the composer uses cymbals all the time (maybe that is why he left them out in the first place). :roll: 

Artificial lens flare should be banned from movies completely. It's unnecessary and cheesy. Besides, it can be dangerous too. I've heard some rumors that Christopher Reeve fell from his horse in 1995 because he was blinded by unnecessary lens flare! :wink: 

IMHO 'artificial' lens flare only works in 3D race game trailers and teasers. But this is just my personal opinion (I don't like sugar and milk in my coffee either).

Anyway, I'm not sure if I'm gonna watch Man of Steel this year, unless someone convinces me that it is a true classic. For me there are only two Superman classics: "Superman I" and Monty Python's "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U01xasUtlvw (Bicycle Repairman)". :wink: And maybe that's enough for any comic book adaptation.

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## brento (Oct 26, 2013)

I haven't seen this movie and don't know if or when I will. Somehow Ive managed to not hear much about it (didnt know HZ was doing the score) and only saw a trailer or teaser which looked fine but nothing to rush to the theatre for.

That said, I heard a clip from the soundtrack on either YouTube or Soundcloud (I forget) and was instantly amazed and purchased it right then and there. I've listened to the soundtrack quite a few times and its nothing short of brilliant.

I use it as background music when I play civilization 5. HZ's scores, especially Gladiator, work extremely well for this. I for one love a soundtrack that stands on its own, and works incredibly well for the picture. Maybe I'll see Superman just like a music video for HZ's score... lol =o


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## dcoscina (Nov 15, 2013)

Just got around to watching this film (yeah, I skipped it in the threaters as I was told it was very loud). I really like how the music underscored Jor El saying goodbye to Kal El. It was very emotive. 

I also enjoyed Superman's first flight sequence in the film but I'm curious why those quick ascending string lines were absent on the soundtrack? The one point where he flies over the water and the music does that circle of 4ths thing with the alternating 7th chords was really a nice addition. I remember when I first heard that on the soundtrack last summer and went "oh, I haven't heard that before from Hans Zimmer". That music device did a great job of expressing the elation of Superman as he discovered his powers.

Anyhow, I'm just curious and I do remember another forum member also picked up on that but don't recall if there was an answer.

*********
As for the film itself (not including music), I was disappointed. The idea of it was sound. Henry Cavill was a solid choice but the screenplay was a mess IMO. So many continuity issues and Kevin Costner's exit was about the most illogical, ridiculous way I've ever seen a character dispatched. It made no sense. And I loved how Lois Lane magically shows up everywhere in the movie. Zod was comical and not purposefully. The actor's performance was bad though I've seen him in other films and he's not a terrible actor. 

The bright points were all the subtle stuff. The Truck Diner still, for me, is the movie at its best. Clarke coming to grips with his power in the face of some cruel people. You could see the conflict in his eyes with no dialogue. The Smallville flashbacks were some of the strongest in the film (except the tornado sequence). 

A better script and director who doesn't like to edit every 16 frames in subsequent installments would be welcome.


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