# Some pretty good Audio Monitors below $2000?



## ChristianAndersson (Aug 27, 2012)

Hi All!

I create production music, trailers etc, using East West libs, Kontakt libs, etc, and I recently uploaded some tracks to a US music agency. They really like my pure orchestral cinematic trailer tracks a lot, but when I tried to mix electronic/orchestral, they say the mixes didnd't sound powerful enough, in particular the orchestral elements sound too much "in the background". So they recommended me to listen to some master composers and also to listen very carefully with my audio monitors by comparing to some reference tracks.

I've got a pair of M-Audio StudioPhile CX-5 monitors, and they cost like $350 each. Now, I'm wondering if you can recommend something better that would cost <$2000 where I get a better idea of the sound.

If you think I can't get good monitors <$2000, then the question becomes: which one would be your pick if you had that much money to spend on audio monitors.

Now, before someone says this: 
- I'm not saying this will fix my problem. I will definitely download a buy some tracks by skilled composers to get good reference tracks and start working with that right away, but I also think this may be the time to step up to a new level when it comes to Audio Monitor quality. 
- So this is just a small part in getting better final mixes - to get a more true sound out from the monitors (yeah, yeah... I know this too: no one knows "true sound" since it's very subjective 

Best Regards
/Christian Andersson


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## devastat (Aug 27, 2012)

Hi Christian and welcome to the forum!

I'm using Neumann KH-120's, they are around $750 each so they would be within your budget and I would highly recommend them they sound great.


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## germancomponist (Aug 27, 2012)

Hi Christian,

do you know that more than 50% of your mixing result is room based? A best room treatment is a must if you want to mix best sounding tracks!


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## P.T. (Aug 27, 2012)

What Germancomponist said, plus, there are no magic speakers, even if you up the budget to $10,000.

There is a list of usual suspects though.

Adam 7
Dynaudio whatchamacallits...bma5or maybe it's 6?
Yamaha 80 or 50 with a sub.

They all sound different because that's the way speakers are.

You need to go listen and find what you like.

I'd rather have a decent passive acoustic suspension (no port) speaker and an amp.
Those ports are usually trouble. All of the powered monitors that I have heard up to the $1000 level have had boomy bass and mud. The Yamaha 80 was the exception, but they roll off the low end. It's all there, but at a reduced level.

Save some money for bass traps.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 27, 2012)

These:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BM6AmkII/

or these:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LSR4328Ppak/


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 27, 2012)

Most powered NFMs are in that price range.

And all things being equal I agree with P.T. about it being better not to have a port, although there are ported speakers in this category that I wouldn't describe as boomy (and ones that definitely are boomy).

I've been very happy with the Blue Sky System One, which uses two 6.5" sats (with no ports) and a subwoofer. But there's no shortage of models to listen to.


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## ChristianAndersson (Aug 27, 2012)

Thank you, everyone, for your recommendations, and also comments about room.
I can't do much about the room I'm sitting in, except maybe adding some panels.
Don't have the budget to pay monthly rent for real studio space, and our house is pretty small. Also good info on the choice of passive/active speakers.

Best
/Christian


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## mark812 (Aug 27, 2012)

Adam A7X or Focal CMS 65.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 27, 2012)

Christian, can you describe the room and its problems? You can almost always make a room workable with some pretty simple strategies.

Gunther and I always argue about the relative importance of speakers vs. the room - even though he agrees with me that I'm always right no matter what, he thinks speakers are far less important than I do. But they are both important, and I'll bet you can improve your room a whole lot without spending a lot of money.


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## gsilbers (Aug 27, 2012)

the focals are good.


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## Arbee (Aug 27, 2012)

And once more - Adam A7X or Focal CMS 65.


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## wst3 (Aug 27, 2012)

Hello Christian,

You've gotten a lot of great suggestions - my personal favorite (and this a personal choice thing) is the Haffler TRM8s, but the Klein & Hummel, now Neuman monitors are a new favorite, and if I had the two in a room together I'm not really sure which I'd like better.

As far as active vs passive goes, well some active monitors are such a perfect marriage of amplifier and transducer that you just can't go wrong - but even so I still like to be able to mix and match. Ultimately you just need to listen. Too bad it's not as easy as it once was to do so!

But it is the comments about the room I'd like to highlight.



ChristianAndersson @ Mon Aug 27 said:


> I can't do much about the room I'm sitting in, except maybe adding some panels.
> Don't have the budget to pay monthly rent for real studio space, and our house is pretty small.



Rubbish (said with a smile!!)

At least the part about not being able to do much. One of my all time favorite rooms to mix in was probably no more than 8 feet deep, with a ceiling that was less than 8 feet high, and the width was maybe 16 - 18 feet. Every project I worked on there translated to the rest of the world really well, and I didn't even like the JBL monitors that guy owned. (this was in the 1980s, and I don't remember the model).

What this room had going for it was the design - it was crammed into a corner of a basement, but it was designed to be there. And it worked.

I'm not sure where in the world you are, or what your finances are like, but if you can swing it I'd recommend talking to an acoustician that specializes in small critical listening spaces. Hire him for an hour or two so you can collect suggestions and recommendations. You may decide to hire them for a full design, you may not.

At the risk of sounding prejudiced - if you can find someone that has worked in Europe so much the better. My mentor spent several years designing studios there, and he explained that it was the constraints of small foot print rooms, and some rather old fashioned construction techniques that really honed his skills. The folks that design small studios over there have a real bag of tricks!

Give it some thought - every dollar that you spend on the room vs the loudspeakers will benefit whatever loudspeakers you end up with!


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## ChristianAndersson (Aug 28, 2012)

All right, guys! Big thanks, everyone! (Why didn't I spend more time in this forum before?)

Thank you so much for all your very helpful comments.
Now: I will work with the room, for sure! 

But I still think it _might_ be a good idea to upgrade my monitors, and I've got some great suggestions here, so thank you all for that.

If you want to hear how my latest tracks sound, the ones that were rejected due to bad mix, check em' out here:
http://craze.se/music_cat_trailers.php
- Clash of the Titans
- Forceful Pressure and Tension
- Ready to Battle the Giants

Note: I'm not hijacking my own thread to ask for critique on my tracks, this is just if you're curious and wanna check out my initial "problematic tracks". ... but if you want to shoot a comment on them in a private message or in this thread, that's totally OK 

Best Regards
/Christian


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## mark812 (Aug 28, 2012)

You can also consider getting Yamaha HS50m + sub (check this review) or Yamaha HS80m and buying hi-end headphones like Sennheiser HD600/650/800 or Beyerdynamic DT 880 pro or Audez'e LCD-2.


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## rayinstirling (Aug 28, 2012)

Christian,
Nick offers favorable comment on his Blue Sky System One setup but having read your description of having small rooms may a offer a similarly favorable plug for Blue Sky's smaller Media Desk System. Unlikely to be replaced in my relatively small room.
-Ray


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## hbuus (Aug 28, 2012)

Christian,

This is a really simple trick:
Instead of placing your desk up against a wall, try placing it up against a corner.
Thus you will be looking directly into the corner when sitting behind your desk.
With your monitors placed on stands a little behind the desk, the sound will improve a lot compared to having the desk placed up against a wall with possible corner-problems sound-wise.

I did this and could hear a big effect on whatever music I played afterwards.
I could hear deeper into the mix; better hear which effect(s) if any there was added to for example a lead singer's voice; better hear reverb; better hear on and off points of sounds.
In short it was a very good experience.

Only problem is, it will take up more space and look kinda messy.

Best,
Henrik


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## rayinstirling (Aug 28, 2012)

Henrik,

Sorry, but in my opinion that is simply nonsense.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 28, 2012)

Well, it's a correlation/causation question. Moving into the corner sounded better in Henrik's room, but what were the problems it eliminated?

Ray, I haven't heard the Media Desk system (although I did review the comparable model they had about ten years ago for EM...or maybe Mix...and liked it), but I can say that the Sky System One is unlikely to be too much speaker for a small room. The sats are only 6.5" and the sub is 12", and it's not incredibly loud.

Actually, that's something I've never really thought about in detail and just sort of accepted: do bigger speakers overpower a small room, and if so why? Bill Wst dude, got any thoughts?

The reason I have UREI 809As rather than the larger 813s - apart from the price - is that my room is on the small side. I've heard people say that they sound the same, only the 813s are louder. But why? Do bigger drivers move more air when powered by the same amp?

These are the types of questions one needs answered on a Tuesday morning.


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## rayinstirling (Aug 28, 2012)

Nick,
I'd love to move up to the Pro One System here and I'm sure it would work very well but!
The present price here in the UK is £1,762.56 and a quick conversion puts that around $2800.00 perhaps a bit less minus our included gigantic tax burden. :(


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 28, 2012)

Yeah, I was a lot richer when I bought it.


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## Dracarys (Aug 30, 2012)

Make sure their OLD VERSIONS

http://www.zzounds.com/item--MACHR824


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## dannthr (Aug 30, 2012)

http://www.equatoraudio.com/Q_Series_Studio_Monitors_s/44.htm (http://www.equatoraudio.com/Q_Series_St ... s_s/44.htm)


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## lumcas (Aug 30, 2012)

I am glad to find my favorite speakers in this thread. I've been relying on Klein & Hummel (Neumann) O300D's and 110's for 15 years and never looked back - (well, they were there anyway in surround).


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## stonzthro (Aug 30, 2012)

Never seen those Equator Audio speakers - interesting. I'll need to get in front of a pair.


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## P.T. (Aug 30, 2012)

stonzthro @ Thu Aug 30 said:


> Never seen those Equator Audio speakers - interesting. I'll need to get in front of a pair.



You've never seen them because they are only sold direct from the manufacturer.

They have a 60 day return policy so you can try them out.
That's also why they are priced as low as they are and get so much high regard for that price.
They would probably cost twice as much if they were distributed through the normal retail chain.


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## Blakus (Aug 30, 2012)

I use BlueSky MediaDesk 2.1 and I am so damn happy with them. So beautiful to listen to, took my mixes to a whole new level - everything translates so well. I don't think I could go back to a non 2.1 system anymore. And the price is fantastic for what they are.


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## Jonik (Aug 31, 2012)

Sorry if this is not related enough, ignore it if I'm hijacking, but I've noticed a lack of genelec speakers being mentioned. I was always under the impression they were good. Am I wrong?


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## lee (Aug 31, 2012)

Genelecs, I consider very very good. But too harsh/cold/honest for my taste.


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## P.T. (Aug 31, 2012)

lee @ Fri Aug 31 said:


> Genelecs, I consider very very good. But too harsh/cold/honest for my taste.



Are they harsh and cold, or honest.

Harsh and cold and honest implies that the engineers that did the mix make it harsh and cold and that the speaker is honestly reproducing that.
In which case that would be a good speaker.
But, did the engineer make a harsh and cold mix?

Honest means that it doesn't change the sound of what is on the source material.

Though, I doubt that such a speaker exists.
Playback would probably have to be done on the same speaker that the mix was made on for it to sound the same as the engineer heard.
Speakers vary so much in sound.


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## synthetic (Aug 31, 2012)

I certainly wouldn't call Genelecs 'honest,' they have more EQ going on in the box than any other monitor. There are better choices for the money.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 31, 2012)

The interesting thing is that a lot of people like them and a lot of similar speakers that were modeled after them. I personally don't get it, but what can you say.

That's not to say that I have no respect for them. You can certainly hear reverbs very clearly on them, and I imagine they'd be nice for the living room. But I find it hard to, say, EQ a snare on them.


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## synergy543 (Aug 31, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Aug 31 said:


> The interesting thing is that a lot of people like them and a lot of similar speakers that were modeled after them. I personally don't get it, but what can you say.
> 
> That's not to say that I have no respect for them. You can certainly hear reverbs very clearly on them, and I imagine they'd be nice for the living room. But I find it hard to, say, EQ a snare on them.



It might have been presentation. The demos at trade shows were really really good. They would play the giant $50,000 speakers and then switch to the $5,000 ones and it would impress everyone. They did have quite a consistent sound between models when I heard them.

And their surround demos were to die for. The best I've ever heard in my life. It wasn't the speakers that impressed, but the effect of extremely well-recorded 5.1 surround. But people don't always differentiate 'what' it is that impresses them...very much like and A/B comparison with different volumes. Effective salesmanship you could say.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 1, 2012)

We're talking about Genelecs, right?

Salesmanship is involved with every successful product, but I think a lot of top-notch professional engineers really do like them. They wouldn't work with them for hours on end otherwise!

And they do have a very pleasant sound. It's not like they're total charlatan speakers and everyone who uses them has been snoookered.

I just find it hard to know what's going on when I listen to them.


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 1, 2012)

Nick sez:


> I just find it hard to know what's going on when I listen to them.


Amen, brotha'. Sing it out loud!

I don't understand how people can mix with them (and most JBL's too). I guess it's just that people have gotten used to them and have unconsciously figured out how to accomodate for them.

They are really great for playback rooms that have non-critical 'party' atmospheres. And I do agree with the comment that they display reverb well. Oh, that was Nick's comment as well. OK, so he's right twice in one day.


.


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## germancomponist (Sep 1, 2012)

.... and I am still using my old ALESIS Monitor Two`s as my big speakers. I am as impressed as I was when I bought it, I think 15 years ago... .

I also always listen to my tracks via that Yamaha NS 10m Studio speakers. 

Oh yeah, I am old fashioned?! But I have good ears and I know my speakers and my room.


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## wst3 (Sep 1, 2012)

I'm not a big fan of the Genelec line, and I'd call them harsh, since the English language is so adept at describing sound<G>

I've mentioned this before, but I think a LOT of our biases towards one or another loudspeaker have to do with what we have listened to previously.

That is not so suggest that there are no differences, there are, it's just that we adapt to them.

I started out listening to Altec 604s - seems like every studio in my area used them. So it's no surprise that I like Urei 8xx monitors. It might be a bit surprising that I like Polk Audio for my living room, since they are a very different design, but to me they have a similar character. Same goes for Haffer TRM8s, yet another design approach.

To me, the Genelecs sound a LOT like the old EV Sentry monitors. These were really popular as broadcast monitors because they were very 'honest' - which is to say you could easily hear your chair squeaking in the cans.

I've also never been really fond of most of the JBL monitors (save for one room where they worked perfectly.) I suspect that this is why I shy away from the Mackie and M-Audio monitors, to me they share a common character.

Possibly odd - but I do really like B&W, K&H, Singer (also two names, but I can't remember them off the top of my head). They sound nothing like the 604, but they work, for me.

None of which really matters all that much! Gunther nailed it - you need to know your monitoring environment - room, loudspeakers, amplifiers, etc. If you do, and if the loudspeakers are capable of reasonably well behaved response in your room then your mixes will translate well to the rest of the world.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 1, 2012)

Jack, I also posted some liberal stuff in the OT section. So I'm right three times in a day.


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## 667 (Sep 2, 2012)

Have you tried simply turning down the electronic elements? If you A/B Clash of the Titans with Dark Epic Power Trailer do you not hear how different they are in terms of mix/balance? Most of your material sounds well enough mixed to me that I'm not sure you need to spend any money to fix this. Probably it's just an issue of experience if you've only recently started working with electronic/synthesized elements. They are usually very compressed, so you're fighting levels/volumes/dymanics. They are usually very broad frequency range, so you're fighting frequency collision. They are usually very bright, so you are fighting blend/mix issues. (And the compression makes those last two stand out even more). 

Specifically in your case, your strings are not bright, they do not have huge attack (e.g. close mics sound) so when you blend them their timbre is not matching the sharp attacks of the electronic sounds. Sounds with a lot of highs have a "close mic" effect so you should bare that in mind when mixing these sounds together.

I think if you compress your orchestral sounds a little to bring them out, turn down the electronics, roll off some of their highs, and EQ your strings so they punch/cut through a little more, it will address the issue you are having. You may even be better served with a different library, one that has more close mic sound or is otherwise brighter/sharper and will cut through a mix of electronic sounds a little better. I can't recommend one personally because I do not mix these types of sound together (so I guess I am armchair quarterbacking this to some degree).


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## gsilbers (Sep 2, 2012)

hbuus @ Tue Aug 28 said:


> Christian,
> 
> This is a really simple trick:
> Instead of placing your desk up against a wall, try placing it up against a corner.
> ...



corner desk..

classic frank fillipetti.. 

cool deal


as for monitors...


Daniel James has maudio bx8 ... nuff said 

learn whatever u have and start making money until u know exactly what u need.


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## wst3 (Sep 3, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Sep 01 said:


> Jack, I also posted some liberal stuff in the OT section. So I'm right three times in a day.



Not sure about "right", but I'll give you prolific and entertaining<G>!


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## John Rodd (Sep 23, 2012)

P.T. @ Mon Aug 27 said:


> What Germancomponist said, plus, there are no magic speakers, even if you up the budget to $10,000.
> 
> .....



I recently did some recording of the LSO at Abbey Road - in the big room - and I used ATC 25 to monitor on. 

I would say that they were pretty amazing.... perhaps even magic? :wink: They are less than $10,000 / pair.

They use the same midrange driver as my huge ATC 150s - so I felt immediately comfortable using them. 

and..

I would agree with all the comments on this thread about ROOM TREATMENT being very, very important. Put as many bass traps in the corners. Stay away from foam.

and...

I myself lean towards the Dynaudio sound for speakers in your price range, and I shy away from Adam, JBL and BlueSky.

just my 2c. 8) 

John


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## synergy543 (Sep 23, 2012)

John Rodd @ Sun Sep 23 said:


> I recently did some recording of the LSO at Abbey Road - in the big room - and I used ATC 25 to monitor on.


Wow, that must have been thrilling! It'll be hard to top that as a highlight in your career.

I'm curious to know if you had a chance to listen to the B&Ws there and what your thoughts are compared to the ATCs? (Of course I'm sure you're biased, but I'd still like to hear your thoughts and impression).


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## Scrianinoff (Sep 23, 2012)

synergy543 @ Sun 23 Sep said:


> John Rodd @ Sun Sep 23 said:
> 
> 
> > I recently did some recording of the LSO at Abbey Road - in the big room - and I used ATC 25 to monitor on.
> ...


+1!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 23, 2012)

> I myself lean towards the Dynaudio sound for speakers in your price range, and I shy away from Adam, JBL and BlueSky.



And I shy toward Blue Sky. I'm very happy with mine.

John is an excellent engineer according to people I respect who know him, and he has lots of experience, but speakers are still a matter of preference. Name-dropping is unattractive, but a good friend of mine who's an amazing engineer, who mixed lots and lots of albums we've all heard of, heard my Blue Sky System One and has been using them for quite a few years.

And I can say that there are no obvious flaws with my Blue Skys other than a slight dip right around the crossover point (all speakers have flaws).


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## John Rodd (Sep 23, 2012)

synergy543 @ Sun Sep 23 said:


> John Rodd @ Sun Sep 23 said:
> 
> 
> > *I recently did some recording of the LSO at Abbey Road - in the big room - and I used ATC 25 to monitor on.*
> ...



Heya synergy543

Yeah recording the LSO at Abbey Road sure was awesome. (Sorry I can’t say for what project... yet) 8) 

I was on staff as Scoring Recordist at 20th Century Fox’s Newman scoring stage for 7 years before I returned to freelance engineering 8 years ago... and that time at Fox was an incredible time.... working with so many great teams of people on so many amazing film scores, and other projects (CD, game scores, tv scores, etc) 
http://www.foxstudios.com/post_production_services/scoring.html (http://www.foxstudios.com/post_producti ... oring.html)

.... but Abbey Road Studio One (the big room) is a very, very special place too. Awesome acoustics, mind blowing mic locker, and seriously kick ass staff. The LSO rocked... of course. o/~ 

In terms of B&Ws.... http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Discover/Discover/About_Bowers_&_Wilkins/Abbey-Road.html (http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Discover/ ... -Road.html)
I have worked on various B&Ws at various studios over the course of my career.... and even owned & worked on a lovely pair many years back ..... but they never were a perfect fit for me. :cry: 

I would be the first to say that monitor speakers are the weakest link in the audio chain, by far.

I would also say that the room the speakers are in play a HUGE role in how speakers will sound.

I myself also own about 7 different sets of speakers of various sizes that I check mixes on..... and depending on the project I pick a few to check mixes on. (No, I don’t have 7 sets up at all time at my studio. I AM gear crazy, but not that crazy. I want to enjoy the view out of my studio window!)
http://johnrodd.com/gallery/photos/2012 ... io-day.jpg

Clearstory Sound was designed by a top acoustician, and built from scratch from the dirt up... and once I had settled in, it was time to make a very big upgrade to my monitors.

Last year I spent months auditioning all sorts of *large* mid-field monitors, from many different manufacturers. (I wont list all of them here) I do both mixing and mastering (and some recording at my studio) and I wanted the very best sound for my clients. :mrgreen: 

The best match for myself and the acoustics of my studio Clearstory Sound were the ATC 150s....... by a long shot.

One of the keys to the sound of the 150’s is the incredible midrange driver that is a soft dome assembly in a very shallow horn enclosure. The midrange assembly weighs 22 lbs! As the crossovers are at 380Hz & 3.5kHz then this midrange driver has a huge spectrum to cover.... and this exact midrange is where our ears are most sensitive.
http://www.atcloudspeakers.co.uk/scm150aslpro.php

The ATC 25 use the same midrange driver as in my 150’s, and as I know my 150’s so well it was a very easy and comfortable transition for me to track at Abbey Road on their ATC 25’s.

I am actually thinking about buying a pair of ATC 25’s for when I go to recording sessions in North America. I own various other nearfields...... but the ATC25’s are pretty amazing. Hmmm..... 

So to answer your question... no... I didn’t fire up the B&W’s... I went straight for the ATC 25’s I had reserved, and I was VERY happy I did.


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## synergy543 (Sep 23, 2012)

Thanks John, interesting insights. Looks forward to hearing more about the LSO/Abbey Road project when you can talk about it.

Greg


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 23, 2012)

Good thread. I went round these houses a couple of years ago, needing monitors in a small space that could also go looooow. I spent some time demoing the two Blue Sky systems, and actually didn't get on with them. It was the crossover point - there was this amazing super low bass, but it all vanished around the 100hz ish point. It didn't - to my ears - sound cohesive, and that's a problem I usually seem to have with satellites and subs (though maybe the placement and / or room might improve things). I recently had a chat about the subject with one of the BBC's main music mixers, and he said exactly the same thing - actually his first recommendation to me for smaller rooms was the SE Munro Egg system.

I've just been working at the new MediaCityUK studios in Manchester, not owned by the BBC but used widely by them. Like many studios I go in, it's Genelecs everywhere. They don't seem to be popular with folks (nor with my friend above), but they seem ubiquitous. I've found them to be good, I'd prefer them over Blue Sky I think. ATCs are common too and very well liked, but they are super-expensive.

In the end, I bought nothing. I didn't like the Yamahas. My favourites were the Adam A7x's but at the time I was concerned they didn't quite go as super-low as a system with a sub. I'm looking to moving to a new space right now though, so I'm revisiting it all again, and I'll probably go for them. Actually 1 set I didn't audition which I've heard very good things about, maybe too cheap for this thread, is the Tannoy Reveals - might see if I can audition a pair side by side with the Adams.


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