# Is Anyone Else Having Big Problems with Kontakt MIDI CC and Track/Region Automation in Logic 10.4?



## Lotus Lake (Jun 15, 2018)

Hi folks,

I've been having some serious issues with automation/MIDI writing in Logic Pro 10.4.1. I think there may be several issues I'm encountering, some of which may be a potential misunderstanding of how Logic 10.4 handles MIDI CC Region Automation vs Track Automation, and some of which seem like they might be bugs that are happening since Logic 10.4.

(I used letters to break this up so anyone responding can use them to help refer to specific sections.)

Okay. I have a instance of Kontakt (5.8) player on a instrument track in Logic Pro X (10.4.1, macOS 10.13.5) with a Spitfire Chamber Strings Cello instrument loaded and I'm using the default MIDI mappings with a CME UF80 keyboard. I record one take playing a few notes and moving the mod wheel, which is sending CC1 and controlling the dynamics.

A
I stop and play back the region with the Piano Roll open and the automation lane visible at the bottom. In Region mode I can use the "Cycle Through Used Parameters" shortcut to see what I've written, and it switches between Note Velocity and Ch. 1: Modulation, both of which have visible MIDI data, which makes sense.






When I switch to Track mode at the bottom of the Piano Roll, however, it shows me "Dynamics - d - Celli - Long CS", as though I've written automation here but there's no visible track automation information written on the lane. When I play back the region with Track mode visible, I can see the fader under "Dynamics - d - Celli - Long CS" moving, even though there's no Track automation written here. It's following the information I wrote with the modulation wheel's MIDI data in the Region, which makes sense, but I don't understand why Logic is sort of behaving like there's track automation there.






B
Much more frustrating is that when I have the new "Autoselect Automation Parameter in Read Mode" option checked and I put the automation lane in Region mode to try and edit my mod wheel CC data with my mouse while the track is playing, the lane keeps switching back to Track mode: "Dynamics - d - Celli - Long CS" making it impossible to make edits to the MIDI data in real time with the autoselect option on. So I'll turn that option off.

C
Next step! Im not quite happy with my mod wheel performance on the dynamics, so I want to re-record it. If I'm in Track Automation and put the track in Touch mode and play back the region while moving the mod wheel slowly up and down, the data it writes is not what I'm playing. It has some strange ups and downs. I'm pretty sure what's happening here is that I still have the mod wheel MIDI data embedded in the region that's it's reading at the same time that I'm trying to write conflicting information about the dynamics in the Track Automation. If that's the case, that makes sense. So I'll go back a step and pretend I didn't try to write the automation in Track mode.

D
Instead, I'll try and re-record my mod wheel performance in Region mode. Putting the Track into Touch mode doesn't work in Region mode (I guess because of the distinction between MIDI data and DAW automation?). So the only way to do this, it seems, is to hit record and overwrite my MIDI region. (I have overlapping MIDI regions set to "Merge" in my preferences.) So I hit record and start to move my mod wheel when my first note hits, but when I do, the notes and my prior mod wheel data disappear from the piano roll, so I can't see what my curve was before, or where my notes are going to start and stop, which makes it tough to time my performance right.

So I resort to using the pencil to draw in my new curves, which is fine, but I feel like there should be a way to rewrite my performance with the mod wheel easily.

E
I close the piano roll, and now I'm just looking at my region on my track. I have automation visible, and I'm back in Track Automation mode, and my track is in Touch mode so that I can write some other parameters. The current parameter being shown is still "Dynamics - d - Celli - Long CS", from before when Logic made this track automation parameter visible after my initial MIDI CC mod wheel performance. But, like before, there's no data written on that track. I start to play the track back, and Logic start's writing information into the "Dynamics - d - Celli - Long CS" lane COMPLETELY by itself. I'm watching it, and it's totally following the information that's in the Ch. 1: Modulation lane, and writing a (strangely, really rough and blocky) version of it. Remember before, up in section A, that after I wrote my initial Ch. 1: Modulation information in the region, Logic for some reason made "Dynamics - d - Celli - Long CS" visible in the Track Automation lane. There wasn't any data there, but the fader in the automation lane under the Piano Roll would move. So now, when I'm in touch mode, that fader that's moving is writing that data into the Track Automation. Not cool!






Even a little weirder about this is that when it's in the middle of automatically writing this data on its own, if I switch from Track mode to Region mode, and then back to Track mode, there's a big gap in the data where it didn't write anything while I was in region mode. So it's only doing this when I'm in track mode watching the fader move.

F
I have a hunch that there's a conflict between Logic's host automation and MIDI CC data happening here, so trying to solve this issue I open Kontakt and go to the Host Automation settings. The first 14 are assigned to controls in my Spitfire Cello, which Logic has done automatically. I delete the first one, which is dynamics. This totally solves the problem of the automatic writing of Track dynamics information. Now when I play back in Touch mode, nothing happens unless I hit a control. That's good, but does that mean I have to delete the host automation parameters from every instrument before I use it? That definitely doesn't feel right.

If I'm remembering correctly, these issues just started happening after I upgraded 10.4, so it seems like they could be related to a conflict between Host Automation and MIDI automation. But I don't know because I've never had to go into the Host Automation section of Kontakt before, so I don't really understand how that section works. I always used the built in MIDI CC mappings for virtual instruments until now, and I never seemed to have any problems like this until the reorganization of Track/Region/MIDI data in Logic 10.4. Is there a place in Kontakt or Logic where you can globally remove Host Automation to avoid this problem?

Lastly, (I promise this is the last thing) is that this really all started for me after 10.4 when I was pretty sure I was seeing Kontakt instruments receiving MIDI data when I wasn't sending any I would just play back and see several MIDI channels' red lights constantly flashing in the MIDI Automation menu. It was really intermittent, like it would happen in one project but not another. And if I would record on a track while it was happening a bunch of information would be written by itself. After really digging into this problem with the stuff above, I'm wondering now if it was related to this, where maybe there was some automation information that had been written without me knowing it that was causing the problem, just like above. It's totally possible, but if anyone out there has had Kontakt writing on its own or receiving MIDI messages like that, I'd love to hear about it.

All of this, by the way, has been duplicated in two totally separate studio setups with different sample libraries, and I've definitely tried removing all external MIDI controllers from the equation to make sure those weren't causing the problems.PLEASE. School me on something if I'm totally missing part of the equation, or share any similar experiences you've had. This is driving me completely crazy.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 15, 2018)

Strangely enough, I experienced item C & D recently. I found that I needed to either choose "write" for the instrument track, or simply view the modulation data, lasso it, then delete (and re-record the MOD wheel). Kind of a PITA.

How are you drawing the CC1 curves with the pencil? Are you able to draw it freehand, or is just the series of straight lines?


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## Lotus Lake (Jun 15, 2018)

Thanks for the response, Wolfie! I'm glad to hear I'm not alone in at least a couple of these items so far. To draw I'm just clicking and dragging to draw a curve freehand, resulting in a series of points that make up a smooth curve, like so:


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 15, 2018)

Thanks! I'm doing something wrong, going to try this again when I'm back in the studio.


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## Lotus Lake (Jun 16, 2018)

I'll look forward to hearing what happens, Wolfie. I'd love to know if you come up with any solutions!


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## procreative (Jun 18, 2018)

This might not be relevant but some thoughts:

1. Logic can read both Track and Region automation as they are separate data, there is a preference in Logic where you can set whether one takes priority over the other if both exist.

2. If you have data in the region automation and switch to track automation it will still be transmitting but you wont see it as it exists in the region mode.

Maybe what you are saying is something else but could not quite understand the point so maybe I am talking crap.


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## mc_deli (Jun 24, 2018)

E you should send to Apple feedback.

I am having trouble following to be honest with video.
Have you checked in the Event List and e.g. Step editor to check what and how many different automations are being written?


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## Mike Newport (Sep 20, 2018)

Hey Lotus Lake!

Is there any chance you managed to find a solution to this?
I am experiencing the EXACT issue you describe, and have been for about the same amount of time (never used to have the issue, then it started happening). It was a relief the day I too discovered the Host Automation section of Kontakt, but not a long term solution!

Really hope you've managed to sort it - and I'm surprised more people don't seem to be experiencing this issue!

Thanks,
Mike


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## Loïc D (Sep 20, 2018)

Had this too (with cc1)
Erratic fader jumps because of automation conflicts between region & track.
The event editor was useless.
I ended up deleting all automation values in the region and rewrite it.
It also seems more frequent if you copy paste regions to other tracks (ie instruments playing the same line) and change automation on a copy.


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## Lotus Lake (Sep 26, 2018)

Hey y'all! Thanks for keeping the thread going! For the last few months I've been avoiding writing data in touch mode and have mostly just been using controllers on my initial record and then drawing in any edits manually, so I haven't been experiencing the issue since then. But I think I have figured out that what was causing my issue is indeed a conflict between region and track midi data, like LowweeK said. I just tried this experiment: Create a software instrument track (in this case a spitfire instrument where the mod wheel controls the dynamics), record a midi region with one note and some mod wheel data that controls the dynamics. Now open the automation lane and switch to Track view. Turn on touch mode, hit play, and Logic starts writing Track data for "Dynamics" which follows the exact shape of the mod wheel data in Region view. If you try to move your dynamics CC controller while touch is writing to track mode, the shape you're drawing will be some weird mix between your fader's movements and the shape of the mod wheel data on the Region track that's conflicting with it. I added some expression data to the region lane as well, went back to the track lane and hit play in touch mode, and it started writing data for expression, too. So I feel relieved to know the problem, but now I'd really like to find a solution. It seems crazy that you can't have region automation data and then use touch mode on the track automation lane without getting duplicates of the data in the region lane. I also feel like there have to be some other folks, especially folks who are writing in Logic daily, who have experienced this issue and found a solution (or have discovered that there is no solution, in which case I will totally make a screen capture and send it to Apple).


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## Lotus Lake (Sep 26, 2018)

Also, thanks procreatve for the suggestion about the Region/Track automation priority option in project settings! It's a good suggestion, and one I'd really hoped would make a difference. Unfortunately, for me at least, whether I have that box checked or not, Logic still writes track automation when I have region data. :(


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## Mike Newport (Sep 26, 2018)

Hey Lotus Lake -

Yep the Region/Track automation priority option doesn't fix the issue for me either.

I really prefer writing in automation in touch mode, be in volume rides or automating other plugin parameters - but if there's any CC data in the midi (which is most of the time as I use a lot of orchestral samples with Mod Wheel as dynamics) this crazy issue happens. The only workaround I have is to use 'write' mode for automation - however, you can only do this once, else you'll write over previous passes of other automation parameters.

Very frustrating. This never used to happen, and I'm certain that it is a bug and shouldn't be happening as it is totally illogical and counter-intuitive. I guess we should probably all file a bug report, and hope it gets on the radar!

Though I am surprised more people aren't talking about this issue (it seems like a major flaw to me), so I wonder if for some reason our systems have a common thread which creates this bug.


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## Lotus Lake (Sep 26, 2018)

I'm with you. Workarounds are fine for now, but it definitely seems like something that shouldn't be happening. I wondered if it was something with my system causing it too, but when it started happening (which I'm pretty certain coincided with the 10.4 update that included changes to how Logic handles midi region vs track automation) it was in my personal home studio, and then on both of the systems at the studio where I work, which are totally different setups than my own. And now that it's happening with at least a few other people on this thread it makes me think it could totally be a bug.


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## Mike Newport (Sep 26, 2018)

Yes, sure sounds like a bug if it affected all of those systems. I filed a bug report earlier today - perhaps you should to and we'll cross our fingers!


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## Lotus Lake (Sep 26, 2018)

I will! Thanks, Mike!


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## babylonwaves (Sep 27, 2018)

did you try Logic 10.4.2 ...?


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## Lotus Lake (Sep 28, 2018)

babylonwaves said:


> did you try Logic 10.4.2 ...?


Not yet! I did head straight to the Automation section of the release notes to look for anything related to this, but didn't see anything. I'm going to update in the next few days. If no one else beats me to testing for this, I'll post what I find!


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## Lotus Lake (Sep 28, 2018)

Nope. 10.4.2 didn't fix it.


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## Hunter123 (Oct 11, 2018)

I'd be really grateful if someone could help me paste midi cc1 and cc11 automation from one track to another track. Is this even possible?


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## samphony (Oct 11, 2018)

Hunter123 said:


> I'd be really grateful if someone could help me paste midi cc1 and cc11 automation from one track to another track. Is this even possible?


The easiest way doing that is by recording your cc onto a separate track pointing to the same instrument. 

*Create a track with the same channel strip or instrument assignment*

Select the track in the Tracks area.


Do one of the following:

Choose Track > Other > New Track With Same Channel (or use the corresponding key command).


Option-click the Duplicate Track button




above the track headers.


A new track is created below the selected track.


If you’ve already recorded cc into an existing region you can open the list view and filter the view to show only cc data, highlight and copy, select the target region and paste.


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## Hunter123 (Oct 13, 2018)

samphony said:


> The easiest way doing that is by recording your cc onto a separate track pointing to the same instrument.
> 
> *Create a track with the same channel strip or instrument assignment*
> 
> ...


Thanks Samphony! That works quite well! As a side, is there anyway to filter out the modulation from the expression in the event list?


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## Lotus Lake (Dec 12, 2018)

I'm back at, troubleshooting this issue again. I was REALLY hoping 10.4.3 would fix it, but unfortunately it has not. 

What I did discover, though, is that this is specifically happening for me with Spitfire libraries. I tried libraries from 3 other companies, none of which caused this problem. The difference between those libraries and the spitfire ones seems to be that Spitfire is auto-populating the "Host Automation" section of the Automation tab in Kontakt. Other libraries like Orchestral Tools don't populate this automatically, or populate it with different assignments. Spitfire's population seems to be mostly consistent with the exception of, so far, just the British Drama Toolkit. 

I can see that the first parameter in the Host Automation section is "Dynamics", and it's tied to the Dynamics controller on the Spitfire GUI. If I delete this, it fixes the problem of my Logic region CC1 mod wheel data (which is tied to the dynamics control) creating track data with the track is in Touch mode. 

Just to test this further, I tried again with another parameter in the host automatin menu. I wrote some region midi data for expression, and when I went back in track touch mode it wrote track automation for my midi info there. I removed the expression host automation assignment in Kontakt and again went over the data in track touch mode, and it did not write track automation for expression.

So I think I've kind of found what's causing the issue, but I'm still curious about a solution. Do I need to remove host automation manually every time I load a Spitfire library? Is there a way to globally disable Host Automation in Kontakt, or change something in Logic to fix this?

Furthermore, I'd love to know more about host automation in general. I understand that it's separate from midi data. My mod wheel is CC1, and is automatically tied to my dynamics control regardless of any host automation settings in Kontakt. Is it for DAW control surface assignment? Anyway, really I'd just love to know if I can just disable it completely somehow.

Whee!


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## Mike Newport (Dec 12, 2018)

Hey Lotus Lake!
Good to hear you're on the case again.

I didn't even update to latest version of Logic, after hearing that it didn't fix this issue!

I made the exact same discoveries as you - it's Spitfire libraries, it's the auto-populating of Host Automation which I don't understand full the purpose of, and I had the same workaround; to manually disable (every time!) loading an instrument / preset. 

Really frustrating. I think I did some brief research and couldn't find a way to just disable host automation.

Again a little surprising more people aren't experiencing this. 

Would it be worth you contacting Spitfire for their thoughts re workaround / fixes / disabling their host automation globally?


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## Vik (Dec 12, 2018)

Have you tried to make copy of the original Spitfire presets, and saved them after having removed the Host Automation assignments?


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## Alex Fraser (Dec 12, 2018)

Lotus Lake said:


> I'm back at, troubleshooting this issue again. I was REALLY hoping 10.4.3 would fix it, but unfortunately it has not.
> 
> What I did discover, though, is that this is specifically happening for me with Spitfire libraries. I tried libraries from 3 other companies, none of which caused this problem. The difference between those libraries and the spitfire ones seems to be that Spitfire is auto-populating the "Host Automation" section of the Automation tab in Kontakt. Other libraries like Orchestral Tools don't populate this automatically, or populate it with different assignments. Spitfire's population seems to be mostly consistent with the exception of, so far, just the British Drama Toolkit.
> 
> ...


There's also the added complication where Logic populates the smart controls with the first 8 or so mapped automation assignments... 

Unless I've missed something, wouldn't the easiest solution be to leave automation in read only mode when working with the Spitfire libraries? You can turn it to touch when you need to do something specific (like automate the channel strip volume) and pop it back into read mode when you're done? It would be easier to use a workflow where midi = Spitfire control only, host automation = volume etc.

Apologies in advance if I've misread what you're trying to do.
A

Edit: Ah, I see that that's already something you're doing anyway. It's not an issue I've ever encountered as I tend to use very little automation.

Host automation is for all the other things that move and wriggle in the the DAW, like synth controls, effects etc. But to further muddy the water, depending on the setup, midi can also act as the control as a separate layer on top. What's happening with Kontakt and Spitfire, (I think) is that Logic's automation system interprets your manipulation of the dynamic slider via CC (your mod wheel) as the exact same thing as if you dragged over it with the mouse. If you're got automation in touch mode, madness then ensues.


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## Lotus Lake (Dec 12, 2018)

Mike Newport said:


> Hey Lotus Lake!
> Good to hear you're on the case again.
> 
> I didn't even update to latest version of Logic, after hearing that it didn't fix this issue!
> ...



I'm glad you're getting the sam results independently, Mike! I think you're right about contacting them. I just posted in Native Instruments' support forum today, and I think I'll see what they say, and get in touch with Spitfire if they're not helpful. I'll keep you posted here!


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## Lotus Lake (Dec 12, 2018)

Vik said:


> Have you tried to make copy of the original Spitfire presets, and saved them after having removed the Host Automation assignments?



That's a good idea, Vik. If there's no fix from Kontakt or Spitfire or Logic, that may end up being a potential solution. I hope that's not the only way to fix it though, since I feel like it would take a really long time to that will all of the spitfire libraries and their presets, including individual articulation presets.


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## Lotus Lake (Dec 12, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> There's also the added complication where Logic populates the smart controls with the first 8 or so mapped automation assignments...
> 
> Unless I've missed something, wouldn't the easiest solution be to leave automation in read only mode when working with the Spitfire libraries? You can turn it to touch when you need to do something specific (like automate the channel strip volume) and pop it back into read mode when you're done? It would be easier to use a workflow where midi = Spitfire control only, host automation = volume etc.
> 
> ...


Hi Alex,

Thanks for the thoughts! Leaving Track automation in read mode does keep the problem at bay, but when you turn it to touch mode, even if it's just to do one thing, any Midi CC data in the region that the playbar hits on that track suddenly starts creating information in the track automation data. This problem is actually specifically causing an issue when you want to use touch mode to put in something like volume info in using a fader, because the data it's "copying over" from the region CC info starts battling with the volume info you're trying to write and keeps you from being able to make a smooth curve. I totally agree that keeping midi data for virtual instruments and host automation for DAW-related automation make sense. That's really what I'd like to do, but what's happening here is that logic is reading that virtual instrument midi information and writing it onto the track information all by itself. I really appreciate the insights and the posts to this thread though. Anyone who thinks they see something we're missing or doing incorrectly here, please do share!


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## Alex Fraser (Dec 12, 2018)

Lotus Lake said:


> Hi Alex,
> 
> Thanks for the thoughts! Leaving Track automation in read mode does keep the problem at bay, but when you turn it to touch mode, even if it's just to do one thing, any Midi CC data in the region that the playbar hits on that track suddenly starts creating information in the track automation data. This problem is actually specifically causing an issue when you want to use touch mode to put in something like volume info in using a fader, because the data it's "copying over" from the region CC info starts battling with the volume info you're trying to write and keeps you from being able to make a smooth curve. I totally agree that keeping midi data for virtual instruments and host automation for DAW-related automation make sense. That's really what I'd like to do, but what's happening here is that logic is reading that virtual instrument midi information and writing it onto the track information all by itself. I really appreciate the insights and the posts to this thread though. Anyone who thinks they see something we're missing or doing incorrectly here, please do share!


Thanks for the extra update! I think I understand what's happening.
(I added some extra thoughts to my previous post..)

It sounds like Logic's automation system is assuming you're moving the Kontakt controls via a mouse drag and writing automation accordingly. In this case, your mouse drag is actually the CC data moving the control. Sort of a loop back thing. I'll do an experiment and get back to you.
A


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## Lotus Lake (Dec 12, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> Thanks for the extra update! I think I understand what's happening.
> (I added some extra thoughts to my previous post..)
> 
> It sounds like Logic's automation system is assuming you're moving the Kontakt controls via a mouse drag and writing automation accordingly. In this case, your mouse drag is actually the CC data moving the control. Sort of a loop back thing. I'll do an experiment and get back to you.
> A


RIGHT! That's totally what it feels like. Logic is seeing that dynamics (or whatever) control on the Spitfire GUI move (because of the Midi data in the region) and it thinks that there's a controller moving it, so it is adding track automation from that "controller's" movements. 

Mike and I just posted earlier (which you may have seen) that the key thing here definitely seems to be the host automation mapping that Spitfire populates in Kontakt, since when you delete this in Kontakt host automation, or use an instrument that doesn't have that auto populated info, this problem doesn't happen. 

Definitely let us know what your experiment turns up! Thanks, Alex!


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## Alex Fraser (Dec 12, 2018)

Update: Yep, the issue is easily replicated here. I can see why this drove you mad!
As already mentioned, the "quick fixes" would be to remove the host automation mappings in the Spitfire presets, or do your host automation (like volume) in the editor, rather than real time, and leave the automation locked in "read" mode.

Both slightly kludgy I guess. Sorry I can't offer a better solution. Maybe someone else can. I'll think it over, but it's 2am here! 

Perhaps it's never an issue for the Spitfire folk, as judging on the video evidence, Paul and Christian favour using a midi dynamics/expression combination most of the time.

Please update us if you get a reply from Spitfire. Would love to know!
A


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## Lotus Lake (Dec 12, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> Update: Yep, the issue is easily replicated here. I can see why this drove you mad!
> As already mentioned, the "quick fixes" would be to remove the host automation mappings in the Spitfire presets, or do your host automation (like volume) in the editor, rather than real time, and leave the automation locked in "read" mode.
> 
> Both slightly kludgy I guess. Sorry I can't offer a better solution. Maybe someone else can. I'll think it over, but it's 2am here!
> ...



Thanks for testing, Alex. Really appreciate it, and I'm glad it's easily replicated elsewhere. I will let you know for sure if I get a good solution.

Get some sleep, friend!


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## jbuhler (Dec 12, 2018)

Mike Newport said:


> Hey Lotus Lake!
> Good to hear you're on the case again.
> 
> I didn't even update to latest version of Logic, after hearing that it didn't fix this issue!
> ...


 When I had this problem Spitfire support told me to delete the host automation entries and resave the instruments using a new name. Then new instances of the instrument won’t have the host automation issue. But I haven’t been having the issue since 10.4.2 using the regular patches. That is, I occasional get odd behavior in terms of what CCs the track thinks have been active but everything works right with the modwheel, expression pedal and sliders mapped to CC21 in the usual and expected way. Not sure why my setup should be different.


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## Lotus Lake (Dec 12, 2018)

jbuhler said:


> When I had this problem Spitfire support told me to delete the host automation entries and resave the instruments using a new name. Then new instances of the instrument won’t have the host automation issue. But I haven’t been having the issue since 10.4.2 using the regular patches. That is, I occasional get odd behavior in terms of what CCs the track thinks have been active but everything works right with the modwheel, expression pedal and sliders mapped to CC21 in the usual and expected way. Not sure why my setup should be different.



Interesting! Did they advise you to resave every instrument's patch individually? Like each multi/ensemble patch plus each individual articulation patch?


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## jbuhler (Dec 12, 2018)

Lotus Lake said:


> Interesting! Did they advise you to resave every instrument's patch individually? Like each multi/ensemble patch plus each individual articulation patch?


Yes, any patch that would be used in Logic needed to be resaved or saved in the modified form in a template in order to avoid having to strip the host automation when you opened it. But as I said, since 10.4.2 I've been able to use the regular patches without real incident (with just a few quirks here and there—mostly host automation from Kontakt arming CC lanes in Logic but without writing anything into them so nothing that affects functionality).


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## Alex Fraser (Dec 13, 2018)

Morning all! I've re-read the entire thread over a breakfast bagel.

First up, for the sake of clarity, I was able to replicate the issue running the latest version of Logic at the time of writing. (10.4.3)

Some folk around these parts have started using host automation to control VI's instead of standard midi. It's an interesting approach and does come with benefits - one of which would be to solve the issue in this thread.

When you first load a Spitfire sound, a side effect of the host automation variables being populated by the patch, is that these variables will also be assigned to Logic's smart controls by default. (That's a mouthful.)
If you have a midi control surface assigned to the smart controls, then your data flow would look something like:

Midi CC in > Smart Control > Host Automation > Spitfire Library.

If you want to learn more, this thread takes the basic idea and accelerates it to light speed.

It's an interesting approach, but does come with it's own set of compromises and potential pitfalls. Maybe there's something you can use from this? FWIW, I think the Spitfire response is probably the best way and least line of resistance. Perhaps removing the automation variables could be part of your next template?

Some other thoughts:

Perhaps a feature request to Apple could be made along the lines of an option to "Prevent third party plugins from automatically assigning host automation variables." They do listen to us, as evidenced by the latest Logic updates.
I think that this issue isn't as prevalent as you'd expect because many folk simply draw in automation and don't do it Old School style.
My preference for recording Midi CC is to simply wiggle away whilst the music plays back. If I like what I did, I use the "capture as recording command."
Now, it's time for breakfast coffee.
A


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## babylonwaves (Dec 13, 2018)

this issue is there since a long while and to my knowledge, it is a kontakt bug. you should report it to NI, the more people do that, the better ...


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## Lotus Lake (Dec 13, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> Morning all! I've re-read the entire thread over a breakfast bagel.
> 
> First up, for the sake of clarity, I was able to replicate the issue running the latest version of Logic at the time of writing. (10.4.3)
> 
> ...



Thanks again for helping dive into this Alex, and everyone. I hope your bagel was delicious. The smart control thing is definitely a viable solution that would circumvent having to re-save all of the patches. I kind of breezed through the forum and does look a bit involved, but it's good to know there could be a way around this (albeit maybe with some pitfalls of its own).

I too, by the way, am using Logic 10.4.3, but have had this problem at least since 10.4.0. (In fact, I can't remember having this problem before 10.4.0, and part of me wonders if that update had something to do with this since it re-worked how logic handles region/midi and track automation.) 

I think you might be right about drawing in MIDI causing some folks to not encounter this. I do lots of drawing when it comes to instrument MIDI data, but my ideal workflow is keeping instrument automation in the region/midi data and "mixing" information like volume in the track automation, which I love to do with an actual moving fader. I do like that capture as recording suggestion, though. I never think to use that, but it really is much easier than hitting record to write new MIDI data if you're using real faders!

Anyway, I've posted in Spitfire and Kontakt's support areas about this so I'm eagerly awaiting any suggestions from those folks, and I'll let you know what I hear!


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## Lotus Lake (Dec 13, 2018)

babylonwaves said:


> this issue is there since a long while and to my knowledge, it is a kontakt bug. you should report it to NI, the more people do that, the better ...



Yikes. Scary to hear that it may have been around for a long time. Maybe it's good that it's considered a bug and not a feature!  Here's hoping that they will squash it.


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## Alex Fraser (Dec 13, 2018)

Lotus Lake said:


> I do like that capture as recording suggestion, though. I never think to use that, but it really is much easier than hitting record to write new MIDI data if you're using real faders!


Oh, yeah - it's a psychological thing for me. Hit record and everything goes red: Pressure on.
Capture recording does away with that. Maybe I'm playing the passage on loop and decide to try out an idea live. Decide I like it. Capture it.

It's a personal thing, granted. And the bagel was delicious, thanks!


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## owj07 (Dec 19, 2018)

Hi all - any news on this from Spitfire / NI? This has been bugging me for about 6 months and i know loads of other people who are suffering from it so SURELY they are going to fix it / offer an easy way of the host automation not mapping automatically...

I'm gonna try their support today...


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## owj07 (Dec 19, 2018)

This from Spitfire:

Thank you for getting in touch, currently the only solution to this is to simply remove host automation from the instrument and save it to avoid the issue in future, this issue was introduced in Logic Pro X and our developers are liaising with NI for a more permanent solution but for now the workaround is a permanent solution if you simply save the nki with these parameters removed. 

We cannot simply remove these mappings in an update unfortunately, as this would likely cause issues for other DAW users or those who opt to use host automation over MIDI.


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## Alex Fraser (Dec 19, 2018)

owj07 said:


> This from Spitfire:
> 
> Thank you for getting in touch, currently the only solution to this is to simply remove host automation from the instrument and save it to avoid the issue in future, this issue was introduced in Logic Pro X and our developers are liaising with NI for a more permanent solution but for now the workaround is a permanent solution if you simply save the nki with these parameters removed.
> 
> We cannot simply remove these mappings in an update unfortunately, as this would likely cause issues for other DAW users or those who opt to use host automation over MIDI.


The quick takeaway, is that the ball is in NI's or Apple's court.


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## Lotus Lake (Dec 20, 2018)

Thanks owj07! Sorry, I got a little swamped this week and didn't get to post my response from Spitfire, which was the same as yours. In fact, yours was a little more detailed than mine, which is awesome. I also posted in NI and Apple support. NI gave pretty much the same reply as Spitfire: 

"There is no way to disable host automation and Logic seems to prioritize host automation over MIDI automation, but you can remove the host automation assignments that Spitfire has selected for their libraries. There's no option for batch removal, so you'll have to click on each assignment to select it then click Remove at the bottom of the window.

Once you've removed the assignments, save the patch as a new patch so you'll still have access to the original patches."

It seems like they're suggesting this is a Logic issue. I haven't heard from Apple yet. I just posted in their forum, so maybe I'll try contacting their support directly if I don't see any responses. It seems like it may just be something we have to deal with, unfortunately but I'll share whatever I hear from Apple.


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## wdlmusic (Feb 3, 2019)

I just wanted to point out that this issue also happens in Ableton Live 10! Only with Spitfire libraries! 
Clip Automation / Sequence Automation conflict and clogging undo history! So it's probably not a logic specific issue! I have seen other Live users point out the same thing! 

Removing host automation data also works here! Not very Ideal... but it helps for now! 
Hoping for a fix since I'm not very excited about re-saving all of the patches!


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## Lotus Lake (Feb 5, 2019)

wdlmusic said:


> I just wanted to point out that this issue also happens in Ableton Live 10! Only with Spitfire libraries!
> Clip Automation / Sequence Automation conflict and clogging undo history! So it's probably not a logic specific issue! I have seen other Live users point out the same thing!
> 
> Removing host automation data also works here! Not very Ideal... but it helps for now!
> Hoping for a fix since I'm not very excited about re-saving all of the patches!



Thanks for adding this! It's super helpful to know that it's happening in more than one DAW. Have you contacted Spitfire about this, by chance? Maybe you could send an email if you haven't already. I'm hoping the more they hear about it, especially in multiple DAWs, the better the chances that they create a fix of some sort.


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## babylonwaves (Feb 6, 2019)

wdlmusic said:


> So it's probably not a logic specific issue!


exactly. this issue is not a logic issue.


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## wdlmusic (Feb 8, 2019)

I have sent my description and workaround of this problem along with this thread to Spitfire! I could't find any other answers around other forums! I will update if there is a fix! 

Good luck!


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## Jambox (Feb 22, 2019)

Possible fix!! (For some instruments) - This problem has been bugging me for a LONG time. Just tonight, I thought to myself - I should use the Komplete Kontrol plugin more, to actually utilize my Komplete keyboard and much more easily tweak my Fabfilter, Soundtoys plugins etc. Alas - the problem does not seem to persist when using Spitfire instruments through the Komplete Kontrol plugin. I'm pumped!! (Only bummer is that not very many Spitfire Plugins can run in kk :/ Luckily my main ones do)


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## OleJoergensen (Feb 23, 2019)

Hunter123 said:


> Thanks Samphony! That works quite well! As a side, is there anyway to filter out the modulation from the expression in the event list?


There is a short cut for “select same midi event”. I dont remember the short cut in my head...
But in the eventlist if you activate 1 cc11 data and then use the shortcut it will selct al cc11 data only.


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## Vik (Feb 23, 2019)

OleJoergensen said:


> There is a short cut for “select same midi event”. I dont remember the short cut in my head...


There are Select Equal Regions/Events and Select Similar Regions/Events. The last one (Shift S) is the one to use in this situation.


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## Alvaro PaivaB (Feb 26, 2019)

Hello people! (first post ever). First of all I wanted to say BIG THANKS because this was driving me insane, I was about to ask Sweetwater to replace my "defective" nanoKontrol 2.

Second, since Lotus Lake was wondering if this was related to 10.4, confirm to you that the bug is also happening to me in Logic 10.3.2.

Third, another workaround (if you're only automating volume, pan, mute or send): go to Automation Preferences (Opt+A), and deselect "Plug-in" checkbox in the "Write automation for:" section.

I really hope this is fixed! Please let me know if there is an Apple forum thread requesting a solution that I can support. Blessings!


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## wdlmusic (Apr 23, 2019)

Update.. This also appears to happen while using Heavyocitys Novo and Intimate Textures! Removing host automation data here does not seem possible for me so there is no workaround here! Can anyone confirm?


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 23, 2019)

I have found that Kontakt has a problem related to CC automation, particularly when it is used as a key switch mechanism, in other words, if you are using a sample library that takes some CC messages as switches to drive articulation changes. I have tried to use CC automation to drive some changes to Kirk Hunter libraries, for example, not CC's that he configured in his scripts as switches, but me configuring the CC automation to drive his interface through CC automation. I started getting weird results and couldn't figure it out, but I have narrowed it down to the repeatable situation where I have a chord of notes all sounding at the same time and trying to apply a different CC switch to each note of the chord. What I found is that the last of the three notes, has it's CC keyswitch applied to all three notes of the chord.

What this tells me is that Kontakt is architected in such a way that its handling the processing of CC events and note events in separate queues. For any given process block, first it processes CC's, then later notes. So for that process block, the last CC value wins and effects all the notes. I don't know the internals of Kontakt, its just a hypothesis.

Numerous people using different libraries and different hosts have reported these weird issues with CC's. The common denominator is Kontakt! And I believe it has to do with if they are using the Kontakt automation engine to drive their sample library in some way. It might be that some libraries that are able to respond to CC more directly through scripting or some such rather then relying on Kontakt's CC automation, might avoid the problem, but that is also just a theory.


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## KeyMaestro (Jun 13, 2019)

Hello everyone! I wanted to throw some info into the hat on this topic if that's ok.

I also was experiencing weird automation with Spitfire libraries and was RELIEVED when I narrowed it down to them specifically knowing how great their support is. I, like some of you, got an immediate and detailed response showing how to remove those assignments in Kontakt, that they needed to be saved individually (patch by patch) and to save them as separate patches. (I also suspected that it was my nanoKontrol2!)

Now, for me, however, I realized the power of this issue due to being unable to UNDO anything. When I would look at my Undo History, it was rife with automation data that I didn't write - even on playback only!

So, I agree, that removing the Host Auto assigns. in Kontakt is the path of least resistance. As far as Logic is concerned, while the Apple Forum has its benefits, for sure, I'd recommend using their Feedback Page as a better alternative:

https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html

You can also access this anytime from the Logic Pro X menu in the menubar. This helps ensure that the feedback goes to the appropriate people.

Sidenote - for anyone that didn't see the last Apple keynote, David Earl (sflogicninja - youtube) is the head of Music Marketing at Apple. He's a longtime Logic user and AAA game composer who's also been teaching Logic for years. Its nice to know we have an advocate in the bloodstream.

Thanks!


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## babylonwaves (Jun 15, 2019)

KeyMaestro said:


> So, I agree, that removing the Host Auto assigns. in Kontakt is the path of least resistance.


updating to 10.4.5 should also be a good solution ...


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 15, 2019)

babylonwaves said:


> updating to 10.4.5 should also be a good solution ...


Oh..is it fixed now?


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## babylonwaves (Jun 15, 2019)

Alex Fraser said:


> Oh..is it fixed now?


I think so


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## KeyMaestro (Jun 16, 2019)

babylonwaves said:


> I think so


I have to dig in a little deeper again, but it was still doing it for me after 10.4.5 update. 

I did, however, realize that if you turn off the “Plug-In” option in Undo History, it resolves the inability to Undo any actions on my part. It turns the Host automation of in Undo History.


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## Vik (Aug 5, 2019)

Lotus Lake said:


> Instead, I'll try and re-record my mod wheel performance in Region mode. Putting the Track into Touch mode doesn't work in Region mode (I guess because of the distinction between MIDI data and DAW automation?). So the only way to do this, it seems, is to hit record and overwrite my MIDI region. (I have overlapping MIDI regions set to "Merge" in my preferences.) So I hit record and start to move my mod wheel when my first note hits, but when I do, the notes and my prior mod wheel data disappear from the piano roll, so I can't see what my curve was before, or where my notes are going to start and stop, which makes it tough to time my performance right.



There's a discussion about rerecording CC data in the (Re-)recording MIDI notes and dynamics in Logic? thread as well, but related to what you wrote about earlier:

It seems that several of the problems discussed here only exist because doesn't have a way to simply rerecord region automations parameters, combined with the fact that the automation modes (Touch, Latch etc) only work for track automation. There's no proper contextual menus for region based automation either – Logic doesn't seem to understand a control click over a RBA node or line.







Plus, the otherwise brilliant Content Punch function – which only starts to punch in when new notes are played and stops overwriting existing stuff when the player stops entering more notes – doesn't work for CC data.

The only smooth solution I can think of is that there should be a dedicated and intelligent replace mode, which allowed the user to re-record either only one CC controller, eg CC1, or re-record only CC data, but not notes. There are several more or less obscure workarounds, but most users aren't aware of them.

One solution could be tied to the automation lanes in the main window:






For instance, each of them could have something similar to a record button: when enabled, only that parameter (eg CC1) would be re-recorded. Or – the lanes could be made selectable, so that only CC data matching the selected lane(s) would be re-recorded.

If this also would work as expected with Replace/Content Punch, replacing only one or a few CC parameters should be easy in Logic, even when punching in – without using workarounds.


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## Lotus Lake (Aug 5, 2019)

Hi folks,

It's been a while, but I'm jumping back in here. I'm glad this thread is staying alive, because this issue is still causing some headaches. 



KeyMaestro said:


> Now, for me, however, I realized the power of this issue due to being unable to UNDO anything. When I would look at my Undo History, it was rife with automation data that I didn't write - even on playback only!



Yeah, this is as much of a bummer as the inability to use touch automation when this problem comes up. Like you mentioned, you can filter out plugin data from the history as a workaround, but if there's a plugin you actually want to undo a move for, hitting undo 75 times to get to the move you want to undo always makes me shed a little tear. 



wdlmusic said:


> Update.. This also appears to happen while using Heavyocitys Novo and Intimate Textures! Removing host automation data here does not seem possible for me so there is no workaround here! Can anyone confirm?



I tried replicating this with Heavyocity Intimate Textures, wdlmusic, but I wasn't able to to do so. It this library still having this same issue for you?



babylonwaves said:


> updating to 10.4.5 should also be a good solution ...



Like a few others, I'm still having the problem after 10.4.5, and now still on 10.4.6. 

I suppose if the big Spitfire reveal this month is the move to their proprietary sample player from Kontakt, then they might not be investing much time into fixing this, but unless they give you a free move to their sample player for libraries you already own, I'll be working around this Kontakt for a while.

Thanks, y'all!


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## tonalexplorer (Aug 29, 2019)

Just in case anyone is experiencing this with East West Orchestra libraries (which I was while using an X-Touch), I found a solution that worked here which leverages Logic's Scripter to control (also works for recording!) MIDI CC messages, at either the TRACK or REGION scope.





__





Midi CC Automation with Mackie Control (A Solution)


If I understand you right, thats expected behaviour. You cannot write automation if there is no note data there. A region has to exist or you have to add it while creating notes. Thats standard Logic behaviour. The names of the automation is taken from what you named your Smart Control, nothing...




vi-control.net


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## David Kudell (Oct 2, 2019)

Been reading through this thread, still a bit confused as to whether there’s a fix for this or not? In Logic, when I want to go back and try to re-write new CC1 automation, it ping-pongs between the old automation and the new. It creates stair-stepping volume jumping up and down.

This happens with Kontakt and my Cinematic Studio Strings instruments.

What track mode should I be in to do this correctly? Write, Latch, etc... Also I see people talking about disabling host automation in Kontakt. How do I do that?


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 3, 2019)

David Kudell said:


> Been reading through this thread, still a bit confused as to whether there’s a fix for this or not? In Logic, when I want to go back and try to re-write new CC1 automation, it ping-pongs between the old automation and the new. It creates stair-stepping volume jumping up and down.
> 
> This happens with Kontakt and my Cinematic Studio Strings instruments.
> 
> What track mode should I be in to do this correctly? Write, Latch, etc... Also I see people talking about disabling host automation in Kontakt. How do I do that?


First of all, you could try running the latest Logic version. For some of us this solved the problem.
This issue for me was caused by a kind of "loop back" by midi automation driving host automation via the smart controls(!)

The key is to break the link somewhere and the official advice (from SF) is to remove the host automation parameters in Kontakt:






In this example, you'd remove number 000.

If you're recording normal CC1 data, just leave the automation in "read" mode. Your CC1 events will show up as "region automation" in the editor.


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## David Kudell (Oct 3, 2019)

Alex Fraser said:


> First of all....


Thank you so much Alex for the helpful post. I will give that a try and see how it works!


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## jonarranger (Mar 27, 2021)

I'm having a similar issue with NI's Cremona Quartet Strings in Logic Pro X.

The instrument has a dynamics control showing CC#1 pre-assigned for Midi Automation - but this control is not in the Host Automation list, and doesn’t show up as a Smart Control.

Unlike Spitfire, the factory Host Automation assignments are not removable.

Trying to “learn” the controller CC#1 output in that automation lane (Midi Control>Midi Control 0-63>1=Modulation) by moving the curve line doesn’t work.

Using the “Learn” function when moving the Dynamics slider on the instrument assigns it to the “Volume” lane, bypassing the instrument’s intended use for CC#1.

This situation is created by 2 factors in Logic - first, it prioritizes Host Automation, and second, it seems to have reserved the Mod Wheel for midi control only.

*There is a way to get it working, however -* 

In Kontakt, I connected a Host Automation slot to the Dynamics control in the instrument by dragging it over to the control in the instrument. Doing so “publishes” the control to the instrument’s list in Automation/Midi>popup>Kontakt. The list starts with #008 (the existing assignments drop to the bottom), with all the published Host Automation parameters waaay down at the bottom of the list, which has 511 slots.

Selecting my newly-assigned Dynamics item from the list opens a lane for it in Logic. I can assign any controller to this new Dynamics automation lane in Logic (including CC#1) and automate it, by moving the control on the plugin after it's been "published" to the Host Automation list. The signal then goes into Logic first, rather than the Plugin first, and can be redirected to the plugin via Logic's Learn function.

I’m using the Wave Ring with Softwave, which enables the controller to “broadcast” on any CC#, and also send notes and keyboard commands, and using it to write mix automation after the fact in Touch mode (to start).


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