# Metropolis Ark 1 now on SINE: Single Instruments (from €24 + VAT) now available - New walkthrough added



## OrchestralTools (May 14, 2020)

Hey everyone,

We're pleased to announce that Metropolis Ark 1 is now available on SINE.




This is a special moment for us, as Metropolis Ark 1 is the first of our collections to get the SINE treatment—we'll upgrade others in the coming months.
If you already own Metropolis Ark 1, you'll be pleased to hear this new version is a free upgrade (instructions below).
And if you don't have it, you'll be pleased that Metropolis Ark 1 is now on special offer: Only €399 instead of €549 (plus, single instruments are now available–starting from €24).

*BUY NOW for €399*
_Offer ends May 31, 2020_

or
*Single Instruments from €24*​
*Why SINE?*
The SINE Player makes managing instrument collections easier, flexible, and more musical.
For a quick overview, watch the video below.


*Download SINE free here*

For a more detailed overview of SINE, we have some very helpful documents on our *Helpdesk*, as well as a video series where Hendrik takes you through downloading, installing, and utilizing the new features SINE offers composers:

Introducing the SINE Player–why did you build SINE?
Downloading and installing SINE, + loading your first instrument
Managing articulations in SINE (Keyswitches, MIDI channels, CC values, program changes)
SINE's Mixer + Mic Merging features–customizing your sound whilst saving memory
Poly maps–switching + morphing between a stack of articulations on the fly
Customizing articulations: Legato, dynamics, changing attack + release, round robins, etc.

*Download SINE free here*​

*Already own Metropolis Ark 1? 
Download** FREE in SINE.

Step 1:* Download the latest SINE version (v1.0.3) at *getsine.com**.

Step 2: *Open the SINE Player.
If this is your first use of the SINE Player, you’ll need to activate it with your free user account. (Please note, you will need to create a new account if your account is older than six months).

*Step 3:* Add your serial number under ‘My Licenses’ in SINE.
_Note: You can find your serial either in Native Access or in your original purchase confirmation email._

Let us know if you have any questions.

Best,

OT


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## AndyP (May 14, 2020)

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> We're pleased to announce that Metropolis Ark 1 is now available on SINE.
> 
> ...



Great!
Can I still use Ark 1 in Kontakt when I make the move to Sine?


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## OrchestralTools (May 14, 2020)

AndyP said:


> Great!
> Can I still use Ark 1 in Kontakt when I make the move to Sine?



Hi AndyP,

Yes. However please note, Kontakt versions bought after May 13, 2020 can be upgraded to SINE, but for a €54,90 support fee.

Best,

OT


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## pawelmorytko (May 14, 2020)

Will there be any nightmares from trying to replace the Kontakt Ark 1 patches with Sine player patches? I'm hoping it's as simple as replacing Kontakt with Sine and loading the correct patch that was there before, and all other midi data will work the same (dynamics, key switches etc)


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## Christopher Rocky (May 14, 2020)

I bought the NI deal back in august last year, the serial number i have in native access does not work... are you supporting those serials still?


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## DarkShinryu (May 14, 2020)

I used the serial i have on the native instruments website and it worked fine.


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## Christopher Rocky (May 14, 2020)

DarkShinryu said:


> I used the serial i have on the native instruments website and it worked fine.


your right! 
i used the serial from the website, NOT the serial from native access and this time it worked! they are totally different numbers, weird!


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## axb312 (May 14, 2020)

OrchestralTools said:


> Hi AndyP,
> 
> Yes. However please note, Kontakt versions bought after May 13, 2020 can be upgraded to SINE, but for a €54,90 support fee.
> 
> ...



@OrchestralTools 

Questions:
1. Does the current purchase include both Sine and Kontakt versions?

2. Why is there a support fee to go from Kontakt (Native Instruments) to Sine (your own player)?

3. How long did it take to port MA1 to Sine?


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## ceemusic (May 14, 2020)

The download stop & resume when reopening Sine isn't working here. They're listed but aren't downloading & cancelling (via X) doesn't clear them either.


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## OT_Tobias (May 14, 2020)

Hi!

axb312:
1) if you purchase now you can choose between the SINE or the Kontakt version
2) There is only a crossgrade fee if you buy the Kontakt version now. The fee is for our download cost. if you already had the Kontakt version of MA1 prior to today, the crossgrade it free.
3) long 

ceemusic:
Does it hang on a specific instrument? Please reach out to [email protected], so we can look at this!


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## Sunny Schramm (May 14, 2020)

DarkShinryu said:


> I used the serial i have on the native instruments website and it worked fine.



mine too


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## axb312 (May 14, 2020)

OT_Tobias said:


> Hi!
> 
> axb312:
> 1) if you purchase now you can choose between the SINE or the Kontakt version
> ...



Not sure I understand download costs. Can't we re-download kontakt libs from OT? Anyhew I feel this is a pointless conversation asking OT to justify costs... Congrats on the release and the incredibly descriptive answer to my last query.


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## Drumdude2112 (May 14, 2020)

Working great here 👍🏻.
Gimme Berlin Strings for Sine baby 😁 !


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## Jaap (May 14, 2020)

Porting the license over was smooth, thanks for that.

Edit: moving my question over the sample talk topic


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## jbuhler (May 14, 2020)

pawelmorytko said:


> Will there be any nightmares from trying to replace the Kontakt Ark 1 patches with Sine player patches? I'm hoping it's as simple as replacing Kontakt with Sine and loading the correct patch that was there before, and all other midi data will work the same (dynamics, key switches etc)


You should be able to set up the keyswitches so they are the same as in Capsule. At least that's how the keyswitches work with JXL Brass. I'm still waiting for my instruments to download, so I don't know if they come mapped the same as the default in Kontakt.


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## GingerMaestro (May 14, 2020)

How are the strings on Met Ark 1 ? I'm thinking of picking it up. Thanks


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## BassClef (May 14, 2020)

Any timeline for Ark2/Sine?


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## stfciu (May 14, 2020)

Are all of the instruments available as individual instruments to buy?


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## David Kudell (May 14, 2020)

Would love to hear everyone's thoughts on mic mixing. I'm excited to create some cool new mic mixes for Ark I to bring the sound to the next level, and reduce the RAM usage too!

Creating a mix from all 4 mics of the Finckenstein High Strings, the RAM went from 1.2GB down for all mics to only 312MB for the mic merge mix! That's with all 16 articulations loaded too. Adding the surround mic totally gives the sound a three-dimensional quality of the Teldex stage.

For my mix, I just set all 4 mics to 0db so they were equal. I'd love to hear your thoughts on how you like to mix your mics though!

Spot
Tree
AB
Sur


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## MartinH. (May 14, 2020)

Is it easy to set up a Sine instance like a Kontakt instance loaded with 1 single-articulation patch per midi channel?


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## Manuel Stumpf (May 14, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Is it easy to set up a Sine instance like a Kontakt instance loaded with 1 single-articulation patch per midi channel?


Yes that is easy to do.


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## Virtuoso (May 14, 2020)

I have sent a support request in already about this, but Automation is not working for SINE 1.0.3 under Logic 10.5.

To replicate just load SINE in an instrument slot and press A to show Automation. Click 'Volume' - SINE is not selectable in the drop down list.

Not sure whether this is purely a Catalina issue or whether it affects all Logic 10.5 installations.


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## AndyP (May 14, 2020)

ChristopherRock said:


> your right!
> i used the serial from the website, NOT the serial from native access and this time it worked! they are totally different numbers, weird!


Thanks, that was the right hint!


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## jaketanner (May 14, 2020)

Hi all..now that there are separate instruments to buy, can anyone recommend which are worth getting? I have Albion One from SF already...


@OrchestralTools ...I know you have your hands full navigating all these new questions, but one more . ...What is the advantage of getting the Ark-1 individual instruments as Kontakt versus Sine player now?


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## jaketanner (May 14, 2020)

David Kudell said:


> Creating a mix from all 4 mics of the Finckenstein High Strings, the RAM went from 1.2GB down for all mics to only 312MB for the mic merge mix! That's with all 16 articulations loaded too. Adding the surround mic totally gives the sound a three-dimensional quality of the Teldex stage.


Is this not possible with Kontakt for Ark-1? I mean blending different mics...or is it that you can blend them, then render it to ONE mic position? Is this the allure of the Sine engine versus Kontakt? Thanks.


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## Manuel Stumpf (May 14, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> or is it that you can blend them, then render it to ONE mic position?


Yes. You can "merge" (render) your own mic position (which obviously takes harddisc space), but only has the RAM footprint of one mic position (instead of all the mics you used). So if you merge 3 mic positions, you basically save 66% sample RAM.


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## jaketanner (May 14, 2020)

Manuel Stumpf said:


> Yes. You can "merge" (render) your own mic position (which obviously takes harddisc space), but only has the RAM footprint of one mic position (instead of all the mics you used). So if you merge 3 mic positions, you basically save 66% sample RAM.


So you save on RAM, but by creating the extra merged mic, it eats additional space on your drive...as if it were an "extra" patch? So I can recall it just like any other patch right? That's not too bad a trade off...I have plenty of drive space.


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## jcrosby (May 14, 2020)




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## jcrosby (May 14, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> So you save on RAM, but by creating the extra merged mic, it eats additional space on your drive...as if it were an "extra" patch? So I can recall it just like any other patch right? That's not too bad a trade off...I have plenty of drive space.


The idea is to merge mics and save drive space (in addition to saving custom mixes). So for example if you have a laptop you could merge to s single mix and have the library take up 1/3 of the space. Since I do work on one a fair amount of the time this is really excellent as I'll recover quite a bit of precious space.


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## Manuel Stumpf (May 14, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> as if it were an "extra" patch?


Yes. It is your personal mixed mic position


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## AndyP (May 14, 2020)

I'm trying out the mic merge function right now. The rendering takes a while. The feature is nice, saves time later when you have found some good mix combinations.


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## jaketanner (May 14, 2020)

Manuel Stumpf said:


> Yes. It is your personal mixed mic position


Very cool concept.


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## jbuhler (May 14, 2020)

Virtuoso said:


> I have sent a support request in already about this, but Automation is not working for SINE 1.0.3 under Logic 10.5.
> 
> To replicate just load SINE in an instrument slot and press A to show Automation. Click 'Volume' - SINE is not selectable in the drop down list.
> 
> Not sure whether this is purely a Catalina issue or whether it affects all Logic 10.5 installations.


CC1 and 11 are working for me with Sine player instruments. It’s only that you can’t address automation directly to Sine.


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## jbuhler (May 14, 2020)

So far I’m really liking Sine. Is there a way to get visual feedback on dynamics the way you could with Capsule in Kontakt?


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## AndyP (May 14, 2020)

I once rendered all 4 mics of the Finkenstein high strings into one.

Comparing:

ab - 1.05 GB
spot - 0.904 GB
sur - 1.06 GB
tree - 1.05 GB

All 4 - 1.66 GB

What I do not like is the names in the file system.
Finckenstein - folder name 360
Wolfenstein - folder name 361

If you have installed several libraries in the Sine Player you can't see what is where.






This makes it difficult to organize if you only want to move certain libraries to another hard disk.


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## purple (May 14, 2020)

@OrchestralTools 
This is awesome, very excited to see this finally happening. I have a few questions:

1. Will vouchers apply to a la carte purchases?
2. What about other discounts like the EDU discount?
3. And my final question is probably just annoying to you, but how long do you think it will be for other collections to be ported, and is there a list of priority you are using to pick which libraries go first?


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## David Kudell (May 14, 2020)

AndyP said:


> I once rendered all 4 mics of the Finkenstein high strings into one.
> 
> Comparing:
> 
> ...


The more mics you merge, the more you save!  For a4 horns in JunkieXL Brass, I merged 5 of the Alan Meyerson mics into 1 mix and it went from 5.2GB(!) RAM down to 1GB. Also what was cool is that by turning on all those mics, Sine detected that it was clipping, so it went ahead and rendered the mix -.2db lower to compensate.


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## purple (May 14, 2020)

David Kudell said:


> The more mics you merge, the more you save!  For a4 horns in JunkieXL Brass, I merged 5 of the Alan Meyerson mics into 1 mix and it went from 5.2GB(!) RAM down to 1GB. Also what was cool is that by turning on all those mics, Sine detected that it was clipping, so it went ahead and rendered the mix -.2db lower to compensate.


Mic merging is a very nice feature I'm happy to see it finally in a collection like this. Some of these things just take up so much more space than they really need to.


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## Virtuoso (May 14, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> CC1 and 11 are working for me with Sine player instruments. It’s only that you can’t address automation directly to Sine.


Yes - the automation parameters are not revealed. Hopefully a simple fix. The same issue is also affecting all Spectrasonics plugins and IK MODO plugins.


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## jcrosby (May 14, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> Very cool concept.


Here's another cool thing about it... If your mic-merge clips any of the samples it will internally re-adjust all mic levels to avoid clipping and merge again.


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## jbuhler (May 14, 2020)

Virtuoso said:


> Yes - the automation parameters are not revealed. Hopefully a simple fix. The same issue is also affecting all Spectrasonics plugins and IK MODO plugins.


Sorry, yes, I just meant to say that basic functionality works fine without access to the Sine menu for automation. But there are all sorts of things you might want to automate that you can’t currently (or if you can they are not straightforward).


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## jcrosby (May 14, 2020)

Virtuoso said:


> Yes - the automation parameters are not revealed. Hopefully a simple fix. The same issue is also affecting all Spectrasonics plugins and IK MODO plugins.



Ouch! this is rough! Really Hope an update to fix this doesn't take nearly as long as previous ones have 
:(


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## OT_Tobias (May 15, 2020)

purple said:


> @OrchestralTools
> This is awesome, very excited to see this finally happening. I have a few questions:
> 
> 1. Will vouchers apply to a la carte purchases?
> ...



Hi!
1. yes, they do, if they meet the minimum requirement (minimum price, for example)
2. EDU Discounts never stack with sale prices, but they do work for single instruments
3. when they are done  Sorry, we really can't give an estimate. We want to release things when they are ready.


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## OT_Tobias (May 15, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Ouch! this is rough! Really Hope an update to fix this doesn't take nearly as long as previous ones have
> :(



Sadly Apple has chosen to not warn developers about this at all. This issue only affects Logic 10.5. We suggest that until we know if we are even able to fix it, you do not update to Logic 10.5. We've seen it the second you have and now have to find out if it is a Logic bug or something Apple forces developers to change. It can't be a SINE bug given that it works fine in previous Logic versions and works fine in all other sequencers. We'll find out!


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## Virtuoso (May 15, 2020)

Well, there's hope! FWIW I tested 92 AU Instrument plugins yesterday and the vast majority worked - only 7 plugins had the automation issue:-

_IK Multimedia MODO Bass and MODO Drum
Orchestral Tools SINE Player
Spectrasonics Omnisphere, Keyscape, Trillian
Steven Slate Drums 5.5_

Working: Arturia, Audio Modeling, Garritan, Korg, Pianoteq, NI (except Massive X), Softube, Spitfire, Synthogy Ivory, Toontrack, u-he, Ujam, UVI, VSL.


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## Fry777 (May 15, 2020)

@OT_Tobias Has there been any change to the library itself following this migration ? Or is the SINE version exactly the same as the Kontakt one in terms of samples ?


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## jcrosby (May 15, 2020)

Virtuoso said:


> Well, there's hope! FWIW I tested 92 AU Instrument plugins yesterday and the vast majority worked - only 7 plugins had the automation issue:-
> 
> _IK Multimedia MODO Bass and MODO Drum
> Orchestral Tools SINE Player
> ...


Also tested this... Add to the list: _*TAL-Uno-LX 2, Stylus RMX*_

About 80-85% are fine, just the odd plugin that does not show up in automation. I submitted it as a bug with Apple. Probably a good idea if others do too so that if it gets widely reported it's get dealt with quickly...



Feedback - Logic Pro – Apple


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## OT_Tobias (May 15, 2020)

Fry777 said:


> @OT_Tobias Has there been any change to the library itself following this migration ? Or is the SINE version exactly the same as the Kontakt one in terms of samples ?



There are a bunch of tweaks here and there and we hope some instruments benefit from the audio engine improvements that SINE brings. But largely it is a pretty faithful port.


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## OrchestralTools (May 15, 2020)

Hey everyone,

As you know, we’ve updated Metropolis Ark 1 for the SINE Player, meaning managing the collection is now easier, flexible, and more musical. 




The walkthrough takes you through the various instruments in the collection, but also shows you how the different features of SINE will not only improve your workflow but also give you more control over each instruments’ sound. 

If you haven’t yet, download SINE free here: DOWNLOAD SINE FREE

Let us know if you have any more questions.

Best,

OT


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## Denkii (May 15, 2020)

Can you crossgrade from SINE to Kontakt, too?


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## OT_Tobias (May 15, 2020)

Denkii said:


> Can you crossgrade from SINE to Kontakt, too?



No, you can not crossgrade from SINE to Kontakt.


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## holywilly (May 15, 2020)

Any plan to make AAX version of sine?


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## Manaberry (May 15, 2020)

@OT_Tobias Hey Tobias (it is me again hahaha)

Any way to get legacy version of SINE? (I've checked OT website but I didn't find anything about that yet)
Even after a complete wipeout of my PC and a clean and fresh installation of Windows and all of my software, Sine is somehow making VEP freezes.


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## MGdepp (May 15, 2020)

OT_Tobias said:


> There are a bunch of tweaks here and there and we hope some instruments benefit from the audio engine improvements that SINE brings. But largely it is a pretty faithful port.


Could you tell us what to listen for in regards to hearing any improvements on transitions? I have tried all kinds of patches and compared them with the Capsule version. So far, they all sounded pretty identical to me ... but maybe it is certain techniques of playing or instruments, where you hear the improvement.
Or is the feature you call "auto volume scaling" more or less something that was already working under the hood of Capsule? From your web site, I got the impression it was something totally new and expected to be able to hear it playing the patches.


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## jadedsean (May 15, 2020)

So if i download this into my Sine player where do the samples go? I mean i have the kontakt version loaded on a drive and my Sine player on another, does this mean the samples go where the Sine player is located?


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## vividmoog (May 15, 2020)

Good Question!


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## AndyP (May 15, 2020)

jadedsean said:


> So if i download this into my Sine player where do the samples go? I mean i have the kontakt version loaded on a drive and my Sine player on another, does this mean the samples go where the Sine player is located?


You can select a destination volume before installation.
I could not choose a folder path on the volume, only the volume.
I already had the Sine Layers in the OT folder. I had to manually move the instruments there and reassign them in the Sine player.
Not very comfortable, but ok.


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## jaketanner (May 15, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Here's another cool thing about it... If your mic-merge clips any of the samples it will internally re-adjust all mic levels to avoid clipping and merge again.


I read that. nice!!


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## jaketanner (May 15, 2020)

holywilly said:


> Any plan to make AAX version of sine?


Wait....I can't use this in Pro Tools?


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## jadedsean (May 15, 2020)

AndyP said:


> You can select a destination volume before installation.
> I could not choose a folder path on the volume, only the volume.
> I already had the Sine Layers in the OT folder. I had to manually move the instruments there and reassign them in the Sine player.
> Not very comfortable, but ok.


By Volume you mean section right?


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## C-Wave (May 15, 2020)

I have Cubase 10.5; NO hiDPI setting. NVidia with latest driver, windows 10. Windows Display is increased to 150% (through system Settings). Sine 1.03.

Reported Errors:
1. Cubase switches to HiDPI !! when I attempt to press on Store or My licenses buttons.
2. Modified the DPI settings (see attached snapshot), and now it works without switching but pressing either Store or and My Licenses show an error message that the system is not online and there is no internet connection.
3. Standalone Sine 1.0.3 has none of these issues.


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## Shubus (May 16, 2020)

Is it possible to specify a directory name when installing this library? The install program wants to put it in the same library as Junky XL Brass--and seems it can only be called "Orchestral Tools".


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## C-Wave (May 16, 2020)

Anybody with Cubase on Windows 10 having a similar experience to the above?


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## Mukar (May 16, 2020)

Oh sweet! Really appreciate the individual instrument option. Seeing as how often I mix and match various libraries in my tracks, I'd love to see more companies take this approach.

Love it!


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## C-Wave (May 16, 2020)

Shubus said:


> Is it possible to specify a directory name when installing this library? The install program wants to put it in the same library as Junky XL Brass--and seems it can only be called "Orchestral Tools".


I doubt that you can. They have universal Orchestral tools-> SINE Player path then a bunch of numbered folders representing the individual instruments.
I wish they would allow for the above path to be replaceable with a user custom path when installing; I don't mind the numbered folders beneath that.


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## jaketanner (May 16, 2020)

Are the individual instruments ONLY for the Sine player? Because that excludes Pro Tools users then. I thought you can get individual instruments in Kontakt also. Am I wrong?


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## dpasdernick (May 16, 2020)

Do I need this? My Kontakt version of Ark 1 is working great and I have limited disk space.


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## method1 (May 16, 2020)

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> As you know, we’ve updated Metropolis Ark 1 for the SINE Player, meaning managing the collection is now easier, flexible, and more musical.
> 
> ...




Im hearing some strange noises in this video, specifically in the brass patches, the first one comes in at around 12:00 on the left channel, then again at 12:40ish and again at 13.35 
There might be more but I haven't finished watching the video yet, are these just glitches in the video recording or random noises in the samples?


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## evilantal (May 17, 2020)

dpasdernick said:


> Do I need this? My Kontakt version of Ark 1 is working great and I have limited disk space.




I'm wondering the same thing...

Uninstall Kontakt version and re-download this one?


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## jcrosby (May 17, 2020)

method1 said:


> Im hearing some strange noises in this video, specifically in the brass patches, the first one comes in at around 12:00 on the left channel, then again at 12:40ish and again at 13.35
> There might be more but I haven't finished watching the video yet, are these just glitches in the video recording or random noises in the samples?


I don't hear anything unusual at the time stamps. Just listened to each time stamp twice.


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## jcrosby (May 17, 2020)

dpasdernick said:


> Do I need this? My Kontakt version of Ark 1 is working great and I have limited disk space.


No but Sine does have some benefits like things you can't do as easily in Capsule, and stuff I believe you can do in Capsule at all. It's also much more CPU efficient. That said if you have a bunch of templates with the Kontakt version than you'd obviously need to factor that in...


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## djrustycans (May 17, 2020)

OT - thanks so much for this. I've been using MA1 since its launch and it has been indispensable for me on certain projects.
Not sure if this has been covered elsewhere but my main concern is regarding the Sine player:

1. In the Kontakt version, I used the X/Y Poly CC box all the time so I could create phrases using Marcato, Sustain, Staccato etc and choose a blend per note/phrase. 

With the current Poly CC pie chart system, if I choose Marc Long, then Marc Short, then Stacc - it seems I can not have Marc Long with a touch of Stacc because their articulations aren't neighbouring. Is this correct? I would want to be able to have a unique blend of all articulations loaded but I can't see how it's possible?!

Also, it appears Legato isn't an option for the Marcato Long, Short strings even though I sometimes used Legato in the Kontakt version (albeit, it triggered the Octave legato but was still useful occasionally!).

Hope you can help.

Kind regards

David


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## method1 (May 17, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> I don't hear anything unusual at the time stamps. Just listened to each time stamp twice.



Double checked and I'm still hearing it, took a look in RX to confirm, there's def something going on there (underlined in red, louder in the left), maybe it's just clipping in the video recording?


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## evilantal (May 17, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> No but Sine does have some benefits like things you can't do as easily in Capsule, and stuff I believe you can do in Capsule at all. It's also much more CPU efficient. That said if you have a bunch of templates with the Kontakt version than you'd obviously need to factor that in...



It also seems to take up much less diskspace (?)
Only 16.4Gb installed vs at least 69.6Gb for the Kontakt version. How is that even possible?

EDIT: Ah, I see what I did wrong now. I clicked on the BASIC KIT radio buttont at the top instead of selecting all the small mic posiiton rectangles beneath it


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## jbuhler (May 17, 2020)

evilantal said:


> It also seems to take up much less diskspace (?)
> Only 16.4Gb installed vs at least 69.6Gb for the Kontakt version. How is that even possible?


Did you download all the mics when you installed the Sine version?


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## Fry777 (May 17, 2020)

evilantal said:


> It also seems to take up much less diskspace (?)
> Only 16.4Gb installed vs at least 69.6Gb for the Kontakt version. How is that even possible?


Are you sure you installed all the mics?

I definitely see a better RAM usage though compared to the Kontakt version


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## evilantal (May 17, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> Did you download all the mics when you installed the Sine version?




Hmmmm... I see on the site it should be 75Gb installed. I must have missed some options when downloading...

EDIT: Ah, I see what I did wrong now. I clicked on the BASIC KIT radio buttont at the top instead of selecting all the small mic posiiton rectangles beneath it 

EDIT2: I've now clicked all the mic positions and downloaded them. With a few tests they seem to be working.
Installed size is now 38.2Gb. Does that sound right?


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## mgnoatto (May 17, 2020)

are the individual instrument with discount too? do I have to use a coupon?


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## jbuhler (May 17, 2020)

evilantal said:


> Hmmmm... I see on the site it should be 75Gb installed. I must have missed some options when downloading...
> 
> EDIT: Ah, I see what I did wrong now. I clicked on the BASIC KIT radio buttont at the top instead of selecting all the small mic posiiton rectangles beneath it
> 
> ...


The Kontakt version is 75 GB compressed and installed. I don't have all of the Sine version downloaded at this point, but I'd be surprised if they could get that much lower than the Kontakt version.


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## muziksculp (May 17, 2020)

The full SINE version of MA1 downloaded with all the mics, is 38.2 GB.

The Kontakt version of MA1 is occupying 70.1 GB on my SSD

That's quite a bit of a difference. I wonder how they could reduce/compress the footprint of the SINE version that much.

Loading instruments in SINE is super fast, and snappy. I'm just beginning to test, and learn the SINE version of MA1, so far so good. CPU usage is also very light.


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## jcrosby (May 18, 2020)

method1 said:


> Double checked and I'm still hearing it, took a look in RX to confirm, there's def something going on there (underlined in red, louder in the left), maybe it's just clipping in the video recording?



Those red lines are clipping. If you overlay the waveform they'll most likely look pretty spikey. Definitely have experienced clipping on Youtube before. Don't think it't anything to worry about regarding MA


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## MartinH. (May 18, 2020)

Sorry, wrong subforum. Ignore this post.


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## Eptesicus (May 20, 2020)

Don't buy this on SINE if you value you sanity.

The player, even on 1.003 has issues and is the biggest time waster in my collection.


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## stevebarden (May 20, 2020)

I downloaded the SINE version of Metropolis Ark. I thought I could simply mirror my Kontakt setup so that my DAW template would map instrument-to-instrument, but that doesn't seem to be the case. 

The first screenshot shows the Kontakt instruments for High Strings. The second screenshot shows the Orchestral Tools website with a list of instruments contained in High Strings. The third screenshot shows the actual instruments that were downloaded for the SINE player.

Is there any kind of mapping documentation available for people like me who would like to maintain the same configuration from the Kontakt version to the SINE version?

KONTAKT HIGH STRINGS





WEBSITE HIGH STRINGS





DOWNLOADED HIGH STRINGS


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## Breaker (May 20, 2020)

I don’t understand really what kind of mapping you would need?
Aren’t the patch names pretty much the same in both versions except that Legato 8va is now called “Sustains octave + LEG” in SINE?


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## stevebarden (May 20, 2020)

Breaker said:


> I don’t understand really what kind of mapping you would need?
> Aren’t the patch names pretty much the same in both versions except that Legato 8va is now called “Sustains octave + LEG” in SINE?



No, they're not. The SINE version contains instruments named "Marcato..." whereas the Kontakt version does not match those names. That's the type of discrepancy I'm referring to.


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## Breaker (May 20, 2020)

Ah, sorry, missed that one. It seems they have renamed Portatos to Marcatos (which makes sense as they are marcatos everywhere else in the Arks). 
I think everything else matches with Kontakt version.


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## stevebarden (May 20, 2020)

Ah, you're right. Okay, it's going to take a little time but it should be okay. Thanks.


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## PerryD (Jun 18, 2020)

I wonder what OT's schedule for porting their libraries to SINE is? I would like to cherry pick the trumpets from Berlin Brass for use with JXL.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 12, 2021)

So does it mean I have to re-create my ARK1 and 2 in my template using SINE?!


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## jcrosby (Mar 12, 2021)

HarmonyCore said:


> So does it mean I have to re-create my ARK1 and 2 in my template using SINE?!


Yeah. Not to sound snarky but how else is this possible given that Sine and Kontakt use completely different, and totally non-compatible formats? Just like Sine can't load Kontakt content, Kontakt can't load Sine content.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 13, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> Yeah. Not to sound snarky but how else is this possible given that Sine and Kontakt use completely different, and totally non-compatible formats? Just like Sine can't load Kontakt content, Kontakt can't load Sine content.


Well, I thought that there is some kind of converter in 2021 to convert Kontakt instrument tracks to SINE tracks. It's very simple to develop such a converter in all these advancements in the technology. Because it's really pain in the butt to do everything manually like we're in 1981.


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 13, 2021)

HarmonyCore said:


> Well, I thought that there is some kind of converter in 2021 to convert Kontakt instrument tracks to SINE tracks. It's very simple to develop such a converter in all these advancements in the technology. Because it's really pain in the butt to do everything manually like we're in 1981.


???

What's different?

If it uses the same channels/keyswitches and gets the same midi should be fine


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 13, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> ???
> 
> What's different?
> 
> If it uses the same channels/keyswitches and gets the same midi should be fine


Maybe the difference is I have to visit each Kontakt instrument track one by one and replace them with SINE? manually?!! 

I really don't get how you asked this question @ProfoundSilence because the answer is obvious. When you create a new instrument track, isn't you asked by your DAW to select the type of player/sampler plugin from that drop-down list? .. Please let me know if I am missing something.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 13, 2021)

HarmonyCore said:


> Maybe the difference is I have to visit each instrument track one by one and replace them with SINE? manually?!!
> 
> I really don't get how you asked this question @ProfoundSilence because the answer is obvious. When you create a new instrument track, isn't you asked by your DAW to select the type of player/sampler plugin from that drop-down list? .. Please let me know if I am missing something.


OR shall I add only one SINE instrument track for ARK1 and browse the patches from within?!


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## gst98 (Mar 13, 2021)

HarmonyCore said:


> Well, I thought that there is some kind of converter in 2021 to convert Kontakt instrument tracks to SINE tracks. It's very simple to develop such a converter in all these advancements in the technology. Because it's really pain in the butt to do everything manually like we're in 1981.


I don't think it is as easy as you think. Logic has done it on a few occasions, such as it will ask if you want to convert "Kontakt 5" to "Kontakt", and it has converted old Camel audio plugins, like Alchemy and Camel Crusher into the new formats that are built into Logic, and it copies over the settings. But those were more straightforward than going from Kontakt to Sine where things will not always line up because they are two completely different products. What you're asking for is pretty complicated and would require the DAW to be doing it.

But it really doesn't take long to make a new instance of Sine and open up the same patches, unless you've done some stuff in your capsule setup.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 13, 2021)

gst98 said:


> But it really doesn't take long to make a new instance of Sine and open up the same patches, unless you've done some stuff in your capsule setup.


Yes, unfortunately, things are pretty complex now especially for ARK2 because all the ARK2 instrument tracks are Komplete Kontrol tracks. I mapped some Capsule parameters to a KK template so I can access them in MIDI mode in the keyboard. I believe SINE is a completely different OT beast and there is no KK support to it also. I understand that OT was completely trying to separate itself from relying on the NI's sampler/KK but yeah, consumers pay that price.


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## gst98 (Mar 13, 2021)

HarmonyCore said:


> Yes, unfortunately, things are pretty complex now especially for ARK2 because all the ARK2 instrument tracks are Komplete Kontrol tracks. I mapped some Capsule parameters to a KK template so I can access them in MIDI mode in the keyboard. I believe SINE is a completely different OT beast and there is no KK support to it also. I understand that OT was completely trying to separate itself from relying on the NI's sampler/KK but yeah, consumers pay that price.


okay, well obviously the way you ahve it setup is going to take a little time. But there isn't really any way around it unfortunately. I don't think the consumer pays the price in this case however. You can still use the Kontakt versions that you have setup, and if you want to, you have the option to move to the new sampler that will reduce files saves, as well as RAM and CPU of mics.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 13, 2021)

gst98 said:


> okay, well obviously the way you ahve it setup is going to take a little time. But there isn't really any way around it unfortunately. I don't think the consumer pays the price in this case however. You can still use the Kontakt versions that you have setup, and if you want to, you have the option to move to the new sampler that will reduce files saves, as well as RAM and CPU of mics.


Yes true! but I am paying the price because the smaller file size, RAM and CPU are the temptations that force you to do whatever takes to follow the vendor's vision


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 13, 2021)

HarmonyCore said:


> Maybe the difference is I have to visit each Kontakt instrument track one by one and replace them with SINE? manually?!!
> 
> I really don't get how you asked this question @ProfoundSilence because the answer is obvious. When you create a new instrument track, isn't you asked by your DAW to select the type of player/sampler plugin from that drop-down list? .. Please let me know if I am missing something.


There's no program that completely switches new vst entirely

This would be daw specific and require the DAWs themselves be extended to this functionality, has absolutely nothing to do with SINE. 

Just use the Kontakt versions for old projects, they still work


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## jcrosby (Mar 13, 2021)

HarmonyCore said:


> Well, I thought that there is some kind of converter in 2021 to convert Kontakt instrument tracks to SINE tracks. It's very simple to develop such a converter in all these advancements in the technology. Because it's really pain in the butt to do everything manually like we're in 1981.


Developing a converter would require approval from NI. Even if NI were to license them the code it would almost certainly cost OT a small fortune for that code. It would also cost them time in development, all of that time gets passed on to you in the form of the cost per library, instrument, etc.

Not to mention Sine still has some small bugs that some users see, others don't. These need ironing out. Developing an additional tool means more bugs to trouble shoot, more time before you have a universally stable player. More software that has to be cross-platform compatible. (And - currently developers have to develop for 3 platforms - Win, Mac-intel, and native Mac Arm).

OT have also stated they have new features, and features that existed in Kontakt they plan on implementing but still have to develop. On top of that they have samples to record, sample to cut, instruments to build.

Compared to NI OT is a very small company, they don't have endless resources to do everything. You're also far from alone. Anyone with SF instruments that have or will be moved to their new player have the same woes. And for people who used EW in the days of them being a Kontakt developer, they faced the same conundrum when Play was introduced. It's just part of the reality anyone faces as new platforms evolve and a reality that exists across several developers.

Is it a headache? Sure. But it's a headache all of us have had to deal with so far. Just use the Kontakt version until you have the time to switch over.


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## jbuhler (Mar 13, 2021)

HarmonyCore said:


> So does it mean I have to re-create my ARK1 and 2 in my template using SINE?!


If you are that invested in the Kontakt eco system then you should probably continue to use Kontakt versions. Nothing is forcing you to change.

The Sine instrument versions deploy keyswitches differently, so you will likely need to modify any articulation sets or expression maps you are using. If you are working an articulation per track you'll need to swap those all out individually. Most of your routing should be able to be retained, but you'll likely have to rebalance the Sine versions since I've found the Kontakt and Sine versions don't match precisely.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 13, 2021)

@jcrosby I totally understand you, immensely! I really don't wanna debate in this matter more than this just to avoid the table being overthrown back on me.. However, sample libraries and DAW's have been around for decades now. When I was in the IT industry working full time for 17 yrs, software vendors were collaborating with hardware vendors in order to deliver operating systems and software that are compatible, bug-free and can run smoothly on hardware from DELL, HP, ...etc. The IETF issues RFC documents to standardize networking and security protocols so that companies like Cisco, Huawei, Juniper and other networking vendors can run a unified system that can speak the same language without trouble. As a result, whenever you configure a Cisco router to talk with a Juniper firewall, you can do that without issues because they speak the same standards. 

Long story short! My point is that I don't see much of collaboration between companies that develop DAWs, samples and players/samplers to make the composers' lives easier.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 13, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Nothing is forcing you to change.


In the contrary! I am very forced to change because of the low storage, RAM and CPU footprints


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## jcrosby (Mar 13, 2021)

HarmonyCore said:


> @jcrosby I totally understand you, immensely! I really don't wanna debate in this matter more than this just to avoid the table being overthrown back on me.. However, sample libraries and DAW's have been around for decades now. When I was in the IT industry working full time for 17 yrs, software vendors were collaborating with hardware vendors in order to deliver operating systems and software that are compatible, bug-free and can run smoothly on hardware from DELL, HP, ...etc. The IETF issues RFC documents to standardize networking and security protocols so that companies like Cisco, Huawei, Juniper and other networking vendors can run a unified system that can speak the same language without trouble. As a result, whenever you configure a Cisco router to talk with a Juniper firewall, you can do that without issues because they speak the same standards.
> 
> Long story short! My point is that I don't see much of collaboration between companies that develop DAWs, samples and players/samplers to make the composers' lives easier.


I hear where you're coming from... I also can't imagine this wasn't a headache they had to consider early on in development. My point is that NI are the gatekeepers, not OT. If NI either would not license their code, or licensing that code were prohibitively expensive to much smaller competing developers than what is OT or SF to do?

I have no idea what the story actually is. But considering NI have hundreds of millions of private equity behind them, to the point of absorbing Izotope... I can't imagine a scenario where NI wouldn't make it deliberately cost prohibitive (if this were even possible)...


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 13, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> I can't imagine a scenario where NI wouldn't make it deliberately cost prohibitive (if this were even possible)...


So, the final result of all this is that the home music making industry is still suffering from collaboration issues because of one company called "NI" that has everything under its belt and makes it difficult to small sample developers. I'd really like to see an open source sampler that can be developed by a consortium of several sample developers so that the composer deals with only one system. But for now, the composer must deal with OT that uses SINE, SF that uses Labs, EW that uses PLAY, and this show will keep go on until in 2030 and beyond you'll end up installing dozens of different samplers and downloaders just because they don't like to collaborate with each other. This is the absolute opposite of "Consolidation".

EDIT: And DAW developers MUST make utilities to automate common tasks


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## jbuhler (Mar 13, 2021)

HarmonyCore said:


> So, the final result of all this is that the home music making industry is still suffering from collaboration issues because of one company called "NI" that has everything under its belt and makes it difficult to small sample developers. I'd really like to see an open source sampler that can be developed by a consortium of several sample developers so that the composer deals with only one system. But for now, the composer must deal with OT that uses SINE, SF that uses Labs, EW that uses PLAY, and this show will keep go on until in 2030 and beyond you'll end up installing dozens of different samplers and downloaders just because they don't like to collaborate with each other. This is the absolute opposite of "Consolidation".


One side of this is the copy protection. Another side of this is that the companies don't want to be reliant on another company for their livelihood. Since the trend now is toward players that are basically romplers, I'm not sure it matters all that much that each company has its own. I don't find the differences between Play, Sine, and SF players are much wider than the differences between Kontakt libraries that increasingly make it difficult to go behind the wrench.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 13, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I'm not sure it matters all that much that each company has its own. I don't find the differences between Play, Sine, and SF players are much wider than the differences between Kontakt libraries that increasingly make it difficult to go behind the wrench.


I agree! It doesn't matter anymore, you know why? Because we got used to all this chaos that became a second nature but new comers will suffer from unbelievable learning curves just to make music.


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 13, 2021)

HarmonyCore said:


> So, the final result of all this is that the home music making industry is still suffering from collaboration issues because of one company called "NI" that has everything under its belt and makes it difficult to small sample developers. I'd really like to see an open source sampler that can be developed by a consortium of several sample developers so that the composer deals with only one system. But for now, the composer must deal with OT that uses SINE, SF that uses Labs, EW that uses PLAY, and this show will keep go on until in 2030 and beyond you'll end up installing dozens of different samplers and downloaders just because they don't like to collaborate with each other. This is the absolute opposite of "Consolidation".
> 
> EDIT: And DAW developers make utilities to automate common tasks


Imagine being mad that native instruments is using its weight and resources to be complacent and choke any competition

And then also complaining when companies make their own players to break up some of their monopoly and it's slightly inconvenient for them lol


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 13, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> Imagine being mad that native instruments is using its weight and resources to be complacent and choke any competition
> 
> And then also complaining when companies make their own players to break up some of their monopoly and it's slightly inconvenient for them lol


I hate to sound like "Complaining" but of course I am complaining about the entire system, not about the small developers specifically.


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 13, 2021)

HarmonyCore said:


> I hate to sound like "Complaining" but of course I am complaining about the entire system, not about the small developers specifically.


Don't take it personally, I would say a good 70% of the forum wants to complain about native instruments when they like to screw the customers over, but every single time a developer moves to a new player they suddenly have amnesia

I'm not trying to single you out, don't worry... It's just a general trend that I see all the time and I think it's kind of funny.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 13, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I would say a good 70% of the forum wants to complain about native instruments when they like to screw the customers over, but every single time a developer moves to a new player they suddenly have amnesia


Nothing was taken personally my friend  Sad but true! I believe the amnesia is due to the acceptance and the agreement to deal with all this chaos subconsciously up to a scary limit. You simply got used to the all this mess but you suffered until you became proficient in dealing with mess.


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 13, 2021)

HarmonyCore said:


> Nothing was taken personally my friend  Sad but true! I believe the amnesia is due to the acceptance and the agreement to deal with all this chaos subconsciously up to a scary limit. You simply got used to the all this mess but you suffered until you became proficient in dealing with mess.


I can't really see it as Stockholm syndrome given the fact that I watched digital music go from 8-bit to MIDI, to more extensive sound fonts, to the amazing software available today that can create music that sounds undiscernably real to a casual listener.

It's just that we kind of stalled


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 13, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I can't really see it as Stockholm syndrome given the fact that I watched digital music go from 8-bit to MIDI, to more extensive sound fonts, to the amazing software available today that can create music that sounds undiscernably real to a casual listener.
> 
> It's just that we kind of stalled


hahaha No, I also don't see it as Stockholm syndrome at all. This industry is just catching you from your weak arm by delivering the insanely realistic sounds that you fell in love with through scattered systems and tools that you're forced to learn in a severe messy fashion


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## jbuhler (Mar 13, 2021)

HarmonyCore said:


> I agree! It doesn't matter anymore, you know why? Because we got used to all this chaos that became a second nature but new comers will suffer from unbelievable learning curves just to make music.


Has it ever not been chaotic? Is this kind of chaos a bad thing? Creativity thrives on a certain amount of chaos.


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## Casiquire (Mar 18, 2021)

I don't think i can agree that learning these different independent samplers means someone starting off in sampling today is at a significant disadvantage. Do we not remember how complicated samplers used to be?! Today it's near-instant, near plug-and-play by comparison


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