# Any tricks to widen the strings without losing the room image?



## fustrun (Aug 18, 2019)

As the topic states i am looking to widen the stereo image of my string section without ruininng room image or cause phase issues ... any tips?

This is what i want to chieve at the end of the day:


Note the crazy big strings at the beginning.


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## Scoremixer (Aug 18, 2019)

Samples or real recording? Or a mixture?


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## fustrun (Aug 18, 2019)

Samples. 

Thanks!


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## Blackster (Aug 18, 2019)

One of the best ways I've come across to widen the stereo image is using different reverbs for your left and right sides of the signal. This also works with mid/side signals. There's a wonderful very inexpensive tool around from Audio Vitamins that lets you treat those signals separately. 

I'm not in front of the computer but I can point you to the tool later.


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## Scoremixer (Aug 19, 2019)

The obvious starting point is panning. I get most orch samples are recorded in situ with the image as it would be in a full session recording, but I often find that samples sound perceptually narrower than the real thing would do in the same space, so don't be afraid to exaggerate the natural panning slightly. You can try it just with the default pan pots, or there are various utility plugins that will pan for you in different ways with eq, phase relationships etc - sometimes that can sound more natural, used sparingly.

Don't be afraid to build your sound world in a way that wouldn't be possible with a real trad orchestra layout - samples afford you the possibility of splitting more lines out of separate processing, so if there's a Violin 1 part that would sound better coming from the right when the rest of the section is left, go ahead and flip the panning. 

The other part of the equation is layering. Fill in the sound gaps of your primary strings with different libs, different articulations... Anything to add more complexity and depth (obviously this is an art in itself and not as simple as just slapping more shit on top). Get it right and it adds to the feeling of a rich stereo image much more effectively than sticking Ozone on the master and cranking up the width.


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 19, 2019)

close mics? 
dont worry about phase, unless you're doing something dumb like a stereo widener send


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## j_kranz (Aug 19, 2019)

From Alan Meyerson:

_“One of my favorite tricks is to make use of the _*Haas Effect*_. So, if I have an instrument that is stereo in track but a bit mono in sound, I delay one channel of that track by usually between 150 (3.4 ms) and 250 (6.2 ms) samples. I use the time delay plugin in Pro Tools for this. What this gives me is an apparent shift in the position of the sound in the stereo field without doing a pan”._

I find this works great to widen things up a little bit but not alter the room or quality of the sounds. Kilohearts has a great little tool for this and it's cheap:









Kilohearts | Haas


Bottom line, it brings stereo width to sounds where there previously was none. Simple as that.




kilohearts.com


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## fustrun (Aug 19, 2019)

Thank you guys!

I am aware of the hass effect and have used it a few times however it would not work on a large string section.

Would love the name for that panning tool!
Also would love some more info on the reverb technique!

So i added another dry library to the mix, added close mics, panned things around ever so gentley and then added an s1 imager on the string bus doin very little and finally hitting my verbs to glue everything together .. sounds pretty good i think ..


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## j_kranz (Aug 19, 2019)

fustrun said:


> I am aware of the hass effect and have used it a few times however it would not work on a large string section.



I'm curious why you think that...


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 19, 2019)

I wouldn't use Haas on everything, mainly just close mics, or mono signals in general.


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## Jerry Growl (Aug 19, 2019)

j_kranz said:


> I'm curious why you think that...


Yes, Haas works effective to increase a sense of spaciousness for mono sources. But it does also havoc in the phase issues dep, especially when using stereo sample material with baked in reverb (room mics, Tree mics, AB stereo mics) 

Production weighs pretty heavy on the reference track (Clover Paradox). Besides great recordings skills they are obviously using a heavier compression style and a lot of EDM mix production tricks (subsynth, expander & bus compression combo, M/S mix groups, enhancers, etc) Probably many more mix tricks than I'm aware of. The airtight braahm/hits are well programmed too. The pre-production is probably monstrous.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 19, 2019)

Usually Jonathan's Haas tip is for creating walls to widen a mono signal and sort of bring it forward. You can also detune the delays a little.

But there's no reason it can't work on a stereo signal too, although I'd be more inclined to use it on the reverb than on the strings. Flanging/chorusing/delay fx-ed reverb tails isn't a new idea, of course, in fact variations of that are a hallmark of the Lexicon sound - which is also traditional for scoring: scoring stage + Lexicon hall.

Having said that, the first thing fustrun said is that he doesn't want to lose the room. To me that means long predelay.

Then you add your big, wide reverb wash.


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## vitocorleone123 (Aug 19, 2019)

If you double the tracks and hard pan them and then EQ each a little differently (not so much to create phase) that can help - or using mid-side EQ. As can using a little compression with a compressor that you can unlink so it compresses each channel individually (if compressing a stereo channel) - or even compressing a reverb tail that way.


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## Joël Dollié (Sep 17, 2019)

This :



It doesn't really cause any phase problems unless you overdo it but at this point it would sound bad anyway.


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## shawnsingh (Sep 17, 2019)

Orchestration matters too. If the same notes are layered on the entire strings section, there will be a vaguely diffused centered sound. Assigning specific notes to each section based on where they are in stereo image can make a huge difference in the perceived width.


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## H.R. (Oct 1, 2019)

Use Waves InPhases! I use it all the time.


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## Will Blackburn (Dec 20, 2019)

Take a look at Dmg Dualism, definitely doesn't get enough attention. It knocks every dedicated imaging tool i've used out of the park and offers far more control. Use in combo with m/s Eqing on the Buss.


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## Dr.Quest (Dec 20, 2019)

fustrun said:


> Thank you guys!
> 
> I am aware of the hass effect and have used it a few times however it would not work on a large string section.
> 
> ...











MSg







www.audiovitamins.com


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## Divico (Dec 20, 2019)

acustica has a free plugin called celestial. The widener has gotten a lot of good words from the guys on gearslutz.


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 20, 2019)

j_kranz said:


> From Alan Meyerson:
> 
> _“One of my favorite tricks is to make use of the _*Haas Effect*_. So, if I have an instrument that is stereo in track but a bit mono in sound, I delay one channel of that track by usually between 150 (3.4 ms) and 250 (6.2 ms) samples. I use the time delay plugin in Pro Tools for this. What this gives me is an apparent shift in the position of the sound in the stereo field without doing a pan”._
> 
> ...




Cool and it looks like you can 'try it' for free. I have found widening similar to giving a loaded gun to a child (me being the child ;( ) - I would say less if more on this production tip. I'll try this one out.


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## hdsmile (May 24, 2020)

I wonder if all these tricks (Haas, delay etc...)will also work with the samples (midi) or it's best way to use it with audio source only? I mean, it’s not good if the sample quality would distorted


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## Beat Kaufmann (May 27, 2020)

Sorry if anyone's already said that:
Leave the classical seating arrangement and place the second violins opposite the first violins - on the right. https://youtu.be/uMAkPT9ggtg?t=145 (This gives you a beautiful wide stereo image).
In this example I even produced two first violin ensembles. I placed one on the left, the other on the right. But if you do that you need two different libraries, otherwise you won't get the effect.
Beat


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## MarcHedenberg (May 27, 2020)

Joël Dollié said:


> This :
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't really cause any phase problems unless you overdo it but at this point it would sound bad anyway.





*Joël, I just want to tell you how much I appreciate your videos. I recently completed an 'advanced music production' module at my college and in my essay, I quite literally cited a couple of your videos on multipressing low-end and low-pass filtering in my Harvard referencing. Great stuff! *


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## Joël Dollié (May 27, 2020)

MarcHedenberg said:


> *Joël, I just want to tell you how much I appreciate your videos. I recently completed an 'advanced music production' module at my college and in my essay, I quite literally cited a couple of your videos on multipressing low-end and low-pass filtering in my Harvard referencing. Great stuff! *



Seriously! That's so cool to hear  Hopefully the teachers like my videos too haha. Cheers!


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## hdsmile (May 27, 2020)

*@Joël Dollié*
interesting trick to widen the strings using Patcher in FL Studio, but I'm wondering how can be done this in Logic Pro X?


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## John Longley (May 27, 2020)

Try any Mid/Side eq. You can experiment with some extra mid or presence push in the sides, or cutting from the mid channel. You can go very wide by changing the level of M to S, but you can go too far quickly.


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## Manaberry (May 28, 2020)

Something I use to change a bit the perception is an unlinked EQ (PSP e27 in my case.) I add or remove some mid freq from the roomy channel of my track, just a .5 or 1db. It forces a little bit the panning. It doesn't affect the overall level, and you are able to change the perception of the sound.


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## musicisum (May 28, 2020)

Haven't seen it mentioned yet, but this one is easy to use doesn't mess up your phase like the haas effect

Probably worth a try.









Wider


Wider is a unique stereo “mono-compatible” plugin. Any signal that has been extended will always remain in phase, even if summed to mono.




polyversemusic.com


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## Joël Dollié (May 28, 2020)

hdsmile said:


> *@Joël Dollié*
> interesting trick to widen the strings using Patcher in FL Studio, but I'm wondering how can be done this in Logic Pro X?


Yeah you only need the waves doubler plugin  The only reason I use patcher is that it's easier to control the dry/wet with that one knob. Basically in the doubler, controlling the level of the Left/right voices will control how dry or wet the effect is.


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## vitocorleone123 (May 28, 2020)

Panning
Delay
Mid/side processing (e.g., EQ, saturation, etc.)
Unlinked (usually mid/side) gentle compression
Extremely gentle use of something like Ozone Imager at the very end


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