# Cinematic Orchestration course - opinions?



## R. Soul (May 19, 2010)

I noticed a new (for me at least) course by the guys who do "Music for the media" called "Cinematic orchestration", which I thought sounded rather interesting.

So I did a search around here and saw this thread:
http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... usic+media
which did put me off a bit but I still wanted to hear if people have any experiences with it?

Is the money better spent buying some better orchestral libraries?, or even a holiday :lol: 

I intend to get LASS Lite in a few days (Andrew get the finger out :mrgreen: ) and thought it was about time I get some sort of orchestral education as well. 
Reading 2000+ pages books with score sheets are not really my thing. I'd much rather have something with video content, MIDI files, actual examples of how to make the best of my libraries etc, and AFAIK this is not really provided many places. 

Of course, I'd much rather go to a physical class than do this at home on my PC/online, as that would motivate me much more.
It does appear that workshops are held locally - I'm in London - so that certainly is a huge plus. This is not a substitute for a class you attend every day but it's better than just studying online.

Here's a link for those who are too lazy to use Google .  
http://www.thinkspaceonline.com/co/


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## nikolas (May 20, 2010)

Well,

I'll kind of repeat what I said in the other thread, but make a few small distinctions here and there.

First of all, I need to note, that I've not taken the course, so I can't speak of experience.

The information given in the website, shows that they are teaching, somewhat basic stuff, as far as I can understand. It's impossible to know how well the tutorials are given, in regards to each instrument, and how much in depth they are offered, or how well known the performers are, and so on. Of course it's extremely useful to be getting tutorials and have actual performers speak for their instruments and the techniques, etc... But if you can't have a discussion with the tutor, then it's half useful.

Other than that, I really think that it boils down to the individual. You might hate your teacher that you never complete the course, or you may love him so much that you keep working with them...

Of course I seriously doubt someone needs help in working better with their libraries and setting up a system, etc. You have so many people here working with the same tools, you also get most of the developers over here. This is a very open community, so most people will dive down to help you better your usage of your equipment.

The last thing I need to note is that although I think that there are other ways to go about learning about these stuff, or even take a more official course, or even take private lessons. BUT the price (around 600 quid) is not extremely high and certainly it's not that you would exchange that to tons of libraries, or a huge Mac or something. So if you balance it you could say that it's LASS vs Classes. :-/ It is a tough call really...

I mean, I never had music technology lessons that I needed (I did take a module while doing my Masters, but I doubt I learned anything useful), so anything I know about samples, midi, etc, I know by myself and forums. But I'm a trained musician and this gives me plenty of trust in what I do, so I did have the luxury to experiment with midi, etc... 

Maybe, there could be tutors around in London who would actually be teaching what you want, tailored to YOUR needs, instead of a more generic class? If I was in London I would be offering my services, but now... :-/


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## Craig Sharmat (May 20, 2010)

I know nothing about the course but Milton Nelson who is one of the tutors is one of the first guys I would call as an orchestrator if I needed one. I have know him for years and he is a very talented musician and great guy. The samples of the composers are quite good so if they have their act together this could be quite worthwhile.


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## bryla (May 20, 2010)

But can't you get all the information from a good of Dover and Boosey&Hawkes scores?


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## Ashermusic (May 20, 2010)

Craig Sharmat @ Thu May 20 said:


> I know nothing about the course but Milton Nelson who is one of the tutors is one of the first guys I would call as an orchestrator if I needed one. I have know him for years and he is a very talented musician and great guy. The samples of the composers are quite good so if they have their act together this could be quite worthwhile.



Milton is indeed very good.


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## stonzthro (May 20, 2010)

+1 on Milton - super nice with a very strong resume. Charles has also offered an orchestration course through Film Music Network in the past and while I didn't go, a good friend of mine did and he said it was awesome. 

So at least we know they have a good crew. 

To answer your question Peter, if you can't study online, you should probably avoid this class and check out Scott Smalley - he flies to London from time to time to give seminars.


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## R. Soul (May 20, 2010)

Thanks guys.

Nikolas: I don't think it's that basic really. They will go through the Star wars score and others. Well, maybe it's basic for you but it looks like my kind of level :mrgreen: 

Bryla: As I mentioned, I'm not really interested in reading loads of scores. I want to hear it and see it. You know, new school studying  - some .avi's, some mp3's and some .MID's. Ideally some .cpr's (cubase projects) but I'm not expecting those. 
And yes, I'm pretty poor at score reading, although I am able to find most notes if a sheet is put in front of me. Timing - pretty lost there I'm afraid. 
Who are Dover anyway? I presume you are not referring to where the ferry leaves to go to Calais. :lol:

Stonzthro: Don't think I said that I can't study online, but that I might struggle to get motivated if I'm just sat at home and have a million other ways that I can spend my time.

I suppose I'm somehow just sick and tired of sitting in my project studio day in and day out and not getting much input. And when I do get input it's 2 lines of text in an email - not a 3 hour lecture/conversation. I think I meet other composers maybe 3 times a year. Maybe that wouldn't change much doing this course but at least I'd get some brain food. 

I also feel there's a few holes in my music background that hinders certain writing.

On the other hand, at the moment £600 is actually quite a bit of money for me, so I'll certainly rather spend it on a sample library if the course is "something you can find on the internet anyway".


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## Craig Sharmat (May 20, 2010)

bryla @ Thu May 20 said:


> But can't you get all the information from a good of Dover and Boosey&Hawkes scores?



You don't get feedback from those. also you need to be totally self motivated. This supplies a healthy amount of motivation and you are getting good professional feedback. If you are smart enough to look at a score and know everything that is going on then you probably are already a first class orchestrator, if not well....take it from there.


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## MacQ (May 20, 2010)

Hey Pete,

I'm in the same boat as you on this one. I'm also interested in this course, and have thought about it for a while. It's my orchestration skills that really let me down at the moment, I think, and I want to be as adept at it as I am at record production, which is where I started out.

I'm pretty sure there was someone on this forum who has taken this particular course - or at least been involved with its development. I think it was Jim Semple (bluejay).

Really, it looks like a good value for the content ... but I'm also still on the fence about it.

I guess what I want is a cheat-sheet for orchestral doublings and a list of "standard" tricks/patterns for certain kinds of moods. Really the ability to take a simple melodic line over a simple harmonic progression and "dress it up", the same way I do on pop/dance tracks. And then someone to tell me if it's terrible, and specifically WHY it's terrible. In a lot of ways I think it's about voicing and texture ... and these things I'm pretty ignorant about (excepting my limited study of Rimsky-Korsakov).

But you're in London, and this thing looks to be UK based, so I think you'd be wise to maybe even go and sit down with the people behind this course and get the sales pitch directly.

Just my musing ...

.:Stu


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## nikolas (May 20, 2010)

R. Soul @ Thu May 20 said:


> Nikolas: I don't think it's that basic really. They will go through the Star wars score and others. Well, maybe it's basic for you but it looks like my kind of level :mrgreen:


Depends on how much in depth they will go and if the course lasts a year with 8 tuitions (??? I understand this correctly), then there's too little time to learn about details on all those subjects... :-/ 

I'm just being skeptical here, nothing else...


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## gsilbers (May 20, 2010)

There is a guy in this forum that gives pro tutoring.
His name is leonel will...somthing maybe u guys remember. His threads about filmscore devices was great.
I'd rather go with him one on one.


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## synthetic (May 20, 2010)

Leon Willet? 

http://www.leonwillett.com/leonwillett. ... /Blog.html


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## R. Soul (May 20, 2010)

nikolas @ Thu May 20 said:


> R. Soul @ Thu May 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Nikolas: I don't think it's that basic really. They will go through the Star wars score and others. Well, maybe it's basic for you but it looks like my kind of level :mrgreen:
> ...


There's 11 units but there's only 8 assignments. True, 8 in a year is not much and they only expect you to study 2 hours a week which is next to nothing. I certainly wouldn't mind putting in 10-15 hours a week.
The last music college I went to was mostly a waste of time and that was like 15 hours a week so I'm certainly not looking for more time wasting stuff.

Leon Willet....at 75 euros an hour £600 is quickly spent. I'm sure it's great - listened to his showreel and it was very well done, but I just think it'll be too expensive overall for me.

MacQ: yep, sounds like we are in the same boat.


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## Ed (May 20, 2010)

RSoul I am pretty certain this course covers what you want. They would expect some level of notation understanding however, and so I cant do it yet, but if you can find your way around a score thats probably fine. It has what you want, interviews, MIDI files, MP3 examples etc. If you are a visual/audio learner I'd say there's nothing else like it, unless someone can recommend one.


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## bluejay (May 21, 2010)

Jim Semple? Haha ... Not many people call me Jim ...

Anyway, yes I did get a chance to beta-test the course and I think it's very good. There are hours and hours of video footage dealing with instrumentation and analysis of orchestration.

Tutors like Charles Fernandez and Milton Nelson are certainly well-respected and the feedback on assignments I've seen from them has been extremely informative and thorough.

The course IS aimed at Cinematic orchestration but covers writing for small orchestra and even big band/jazz orchestra as well. 

I think it's incredible value for money and the hours of footage are worth it alone.

Not sure about the 2 hours a week thing. Each section has something like at least 2 hours of footage to watch plus the assignments seem to be really demanding.

I have taken private lessons with Leon as well and he's a fantastic teacher who really knows his stuff but I see no problem with learning from both sources here; they are complimentary.

Hope that helps!

cheers

James 'Jim' Semple


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## R. Soul (May 22, 2010)

Damn you Ed and James. Everybody pretty much talked me out of it and then you come along :lol: 

I might do it in the future but after a bit of consideration I think, for now at least, I'd have save the money for other purposes.


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## MacQ (May 22, 2010)

bluejay @ Fri May 21 said:


> Jim Semple? Haha ... Not many people call me Jim ...
> 
> James 'Jim' Semple



Haha, sorry. I'm very informal. But my full name is Stuart Lachlan MacQuarrie, which is more than a bit pompous I think, so I opt for informal.

Stu. MacQ.

~Stu


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