# Reality vs working in a Bubble



## José Herring (Dec 27, 2009)

Warning this is going to be a long one:

Recently I've been quite concerned about this subject. I've gotten a PM from a from another member concerning why I even bother to debate or post on certain threads with certain other members who don't work in this industry and are opposed to many of the practices and difficulties of other working composers especially major players. I responded by saying that my hope is that some young composer coming up will "see the light". And, I ended with I fear that I'm wasting my time. So I've decided to post this response in this section that gets way too little attention on this forum.

Of course this is the reality as I see it. I don't pretend to be anything at this point but and up and comer. But, I do recognized that more than most I have had things paid for and accepted and if anybody could benefit from what I've observed, then this thread is for them.

First a little background. I love scoring for film. What I write is from that perspective. I've done many other kinds of work from arranging for jazz, rock and pop artist to commercials. I started out in the world of classical music and purposely left it behind so that I could find paying gigs that reached out into the public domain via media. This has its pluses and minuses. 

The first thing that I noticed in working with a team whether it be on a film or whatever is the need to write music that people get. That means that there has to be something in the music that the lay person can get a grasp on immediately. What I've noticed in a lot of newer composers is that they don't think this is important. Or they look towards the one or two composers that are making it and not writing accessible music and neglect or look down upon the other 99% that are.

When I was starting to compose I did a cursory survey off all the music in whatever style that has stood the test of time and that was liked by more people than just a handful of trained musicians. What I've found from Mozart to Beethoven all the way up into more modern times like Bernstein, Stravinsky, Copeland that most of the work that was publicly liked had easily singable melodic lines. This was true for about 99% of music. The other 1% is out there. And, I'm not knocking more obscure music like The Rite or the minimalism of Philip Glass, ect.... I love this stuff, but I just found that this music was the exception rather than a rule.

So I began to study what it took to write a really convincing lead line. I came up with a few guide lines. 1) It had to be easily decipherable by ear 2) The intervals had to be easily singable. 3) There had to be enough repetition in the melodic line so that it was memorable 4) All other musical devices (harmony, orchestration, counterpoint, ect...) support the lead line. 5) That the melody line was the best and most flexible way to communicate an idea.

This above point is the thing that I get criticized the most by non working composers ( what I consider composers that work in a bubble) but get praised for the most by working composers and people that actually buy my music. This isn't to say that there isn't a call for more esoteric sound design and other techniques because there really is. But it's not something that people ask for beyond the moments that it actually serves a scene or two in their movie.

Probably the most contentious point is the work of other past masters. I love Bernard Herrmann. I've studied just about all of his film scores and I find them invaluable to the way I think about film music. But I don't think for a second that he would necessarily be all that demanded today. Of course if he was still alive I think he would adapt. And honestly some of his stuff is just as valid today as in any other day, but the truth is that it's a rare project that's going to be asking for something like Taxi Driver or Vertigo or Psycho in their film. But as a composer I find that sometimes that style fits underneath a film better than any other music so in those places where music isn't upfront and center Bernard Hermann works wonders.

There's a lot more to say but this is a good start. The bottom line being that the music in film or tv or games for that matter isn't really a thing in itself. Less now than in times of the past, but it is a sincere expression of the subject matter of the project to an audience. I think in order to get things accepted one has to understand the mind set of those making the project and those who are the intended audience. If you're doing a kids film there's no need to write overly complicated music that nobody is going to get when just a simple melody line would do. I'm reminded of something that Fred Carlin once told me in a critique of my music when I was starting out. He said there was no need to throw in a 7/8 bar when you're going along in 3/4 just fine. Another thing that Bruce Broughton told me in a criticism of a CD I sent him back when I was in New York 15 years ago. And, that was that most trained composers were too concerned with the notes and the theory and in sounding "out there" when really all they want is a good melody. :lol: I started to laugh. But he was kind of right. Strong lead line and then you can branch off from there. But without it I just don't think that things would get accepted in about 90% of the real work that's other there. I think this would hold true in just about any genre of music though the genre I work most in centers around orchestral film music.



best,

Jose


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## autopilot (Dec 27, 2009)

Nice post Jose - Working in the industry is my favourite part of this forum... 

I agree with your post but with a sight "it depends" caveat ... (which I'm sure you'll agree with anyway - just enjoying the discourse) 

Re Herrmann and melody - You're right - melodic driven music is definitely the easiest way to make music accessible, but the thing about melody is that it by nature "hooks" the ear. You use this to advantage and disadvantage - tension and release - not saying anything we don't all know here. I think Hermann's great talent was harmony, and using it to unsettle. Just as I think Zimmer's great talent is using texture, tone colour and rhythm to do a similar thing. 

Film music though cannot and should not be foreground most of the time. I think there are those moments where you need to hide to enhance, and that's when it's great to jump on those other elements. 

Like you (I assume), I think our job as creators of underscore is to use the music that has meaning and resonance to our audience to enhance the story being told. While occasionally that requires a big new statement, mostly it is about cunningly selecting music that "borrows" as a shorthand to let the audience know what they should be feeling, or allow them the cathartic release that we're all working towards. 

No-one (well apart from a few of us) goes to films for the music. They go for the story, the actors, the whole package - for the emotional catharsis. 

Call me a hack if you like but for me if the music is too interesting or challenging it takes us away from the story, and that's why we're there. Music is there to support, not be the feature. 

And of course there are exceptions, and exceptional moments within pictures, and as a composer you lick your lips and take the trust the director/producer has placed in you to enhance and make that moment exceptional. Heck it's what we've trained for most of our lives, but that moment still must be about the picture and story, and not about you. 

And sometimes that means not working melodically. Or using minimalism. Or samples. Or whatever. It's about the picture and story. Full stop. 

And it of course depends : - )


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## theheresy (Dec 27, 2009)

Well I agree, I have just been reading interviews of James Horner where he repeatedly states that film makers don't want an avant garde sound, he always tries to do it but like on Avatar recently Horner says Cameron told him to keep it simple like in the past, not to do anything crazy because the audience is not ready for it. Horner naturally wanted to do something avant garde for Avatar like maybe 2001, etc but Cameron knew that people didn't want to hear it and it's true. I think modernists need to stop shoving that crap down everyone's throat. In the end it's all about what people like and 90% of people especially TODAY don't want atonal and don't want anything even remotely avant garde. Hermann would be thrown out of the theatres in today's dumbed down populace.


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## José Herring (Dec 27, 2009)

Don't know if the audience is necessarily any more dumb down now than before. Hermann was writing for films that would be considered art film today. He certainly wasn't writing for the mass audience. Back then films weren't making 100 million at the box office and I don't think they were aiming for that. Different time different purposes really.

But today even the lowest budget films are trying to appeal to a wide audience which changes the game a lot.

Autopilot, it does depend. Personally I think Hans Zimmer's strongest point though is that he can create a really visceral lead line.

Jose


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## midphase (Dec 27, 2009)

"In the end it's all about what people like and 90% of people especially TODAY don't want atonal and don't want anything even remotely avant garde. Hermann would be thrown out of the theatres in today's dumbed down populace."

Huh? First of all, you'll find as much "atonal" as you call it music in the Pirates of the Caribbean soundtrack as you will in any Herrmann score. Secondly, time and time again it's been shown that when audiences are challenged by the filmmakers, they will respond well to it (There Will Be Blood, Apocalypse Now, The Shining, hell...Aliens!). Just like everything else, if the music doesn't match, that's not an issue with it being atonal or not vs. just not working with the film. Avatar is like McDonalds (well...a CGI McDonalds), very easy to digest storyline with below par performances, the score had to match the dumbed down feel of the film!


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## theheresy (Dec 27, 2009)

midphase @ Sun Dec 27 said:


> "In the end it's all about what people like and 90% of people especially TODAY don't want atonal and don't want anything even remotely avant garde. Hermann would be thrown out of the theatres in today's dumbed down populace."
> 
> Huh? First of all, you'll find as much "atonal" as you call it music in the Pirates of the Caribbean soundtrack as you will in any Herrmann score. Secondly, time and time again it's been shown that when audiences are challenged by the filmmakers, they will respond well to it (There Will Be Blood, Apocalypse Now, The Shining, hell...Aliens!). Just like everything else, if the music doesn't match, that's not an issue with it being atonal or not vs. just not working with the film. Avatar is like McDonalds (well...a CGI McDonalds), very easy to digest storyline with below par performances, the score had to match the dumbed down feel of the film!



Please don't use POTC in the same sentence as Hermann.


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## midphase (Dec 27, 2009)

Ok...how about Interview With the Vampire? That's pretty atonal.


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## José Herring (Dec 28, 2009)

The only thing really memorable about Pirates are the themes. Maybe its me but I didn't consider anything in those films atonal.

As far as Goldenthal is concerned, he's an exception. I don't remember his themes as much as I remember just some kick ass contemporary music.

Don't get me wrong. There's certainly a call for more challenging music in film. If there wasn't I don't think I'd be as interested in film music. But and a big but, I really don't find that filmmakers are too interested in that. They're interested in themes, pretty diatonic ones at that, and if some more "atonal" music fits a particular film or scene they'll go for it. But, it's rare indeed.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 29, 2009)

Great post Jose! Though I must say that I've worked with a number of directors who had little interest for melody. I'm not so sure that a cue needs to be easily remembered in order to be successful. Also, atonal rocks!!!


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 29, 2009)

There are too many exceptions to the rule out there to be able to establish what works and what doesn't.

I'm one for a good strong melody, but that only works if it's well supported by a great arrangement and orchestration. For example, Star Wars theme, is really a silly theme once you remove the character of the orchestration, just try it on your piano, not sure a director would go for it. lol It really comes down to, what is effective.


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## midphase (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm with Ned on this one....most directors nowadays want musical wallpaper. They need some atmo-vibey thing going, like House or CSI. References that come up all the time with me are Massive Attack and Radiohead (the mellow Kid A Radionhead, not the rocking Pablo Honey Readiohead).

Zimmer doesn't do melodies lately...where's the melody in Batman? I think what he does well is catchy "chord progressions" with leading tones which resemble melodies.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 29, 2009)

I also think that Zimmer, like Miles Davis, is able to find great collaborators who share his evident passion for new timbres. Yeah melody is important, but so is colour/texture.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 29, 2009)

But you are giving examples where a one note theme for the joker is appropriate for this type of action film, but at the same time I could list you tons of films in the past years where melodies where of the upmost importance.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 29, 2009)

I completely agree with and like the challenge of coming with a good, singable melody.


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## José Herring (Dec 29, 2009)

I agree with your statements Ned and Guy. I am going to address this in kind of a part two to my first post above.

Btw Batman has some really definite themes. They are just so bloody simple that it comes across as texture rather than theme. But, that texture would exist only as random wallpaper music if Zimmer wasn't such a master of theme. That he was able to boil down the main Batman theme to two notes a minor 3d apart and the main Joker theme to a single note played with different rhythms is pretty cool.


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## midphase (Dec 29, 2009)

Then let's start a thread where we argue what constitutes a theme vs. a note pattern...that will be fun!


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 29, 2009)

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## theheresy (Dec 29, 2009)

a conversation about what constitutes a theme or melody would just be another futile exercise in semantics. What's a theme to one person is just a chord progression to another person, what's a theme to another person could be just a 'bed', 'ambience', 'atmospheric effect', or 'sound effect' to another person, etc, etc.

I do agree though with what someone said is that Zimmer doesn't write themes so much as ultra-diatonic block chord progressions with voice leading in such a way to suggest a singable melody.


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## José Herring (Dec 29, 2009)

Ok now time for part 2.

About a year ago I was discussing with a few composers that the art of film scoring was changing (or maybe had changed and I failed to see it soon enough). Nobody could quite put a finger on what that change was. Back in the day when I was first starting out Goldsmith, Elfman and John Williams were the go to composers on just about everything. They defined film music so much that people automatically associated film music with their sound. Slowly but surely people like Zimmer and JNH came to the scene in the late 80's and early 90's and began to offer something different. Elliot Goldenthal and others offered something different yet. In the 1990's that traditional orchestral sound was sufficiently still in peoples memories that you could survive on just knowledge of the orchestra alone as a composer. Today I find that's no longer the case.

Another thing that I noticed about younger composers coming up is that they fall into two camps. Either they are orchestral in nature or they are synthy sound design in nature. The merging of the two I find is still a little bit misunderstood. The reason why, imo, is that the two require two different approaches to music and to combine them requires yet another approach.

While the traditional score and traditional orchestration is still hugely popular in kids films and in other traditional type Disney style films more and more a successful combination of orchestra and sound design is required to make it to the end of a project without pissing everybody off and getting fired. But how does one reconcile the two different approaches to scoring? I've spent the better part of a year and 1/2 trying to figure that out with varying amount of success and failure.

The first time that I really came up against this paradox is when I was asked to ghost a cue on film. I listen to the temp. There was a piano theme that was being passed around and my job was to take this theme and fit it to a scene using a combination of sound design and orchestra. The gig took me out of my comfort zone for sure.

Luckily the film was kind of a Basic Instinct type film and having done so many similar films the feel and the mood was something that I'm really familiar with. 

What I ended up doing was creating textures and rhythms with sound design percussion in between the utterances of the theme which I "orchestrated" with harp, strings and piano. I unfortunately had to throw everything away about orchestration. What I began to understand is that traditional orchestration practices were something that was developed primarily for the concert hall. The delicate balances of resonances was actually a barrier when dealing with the sounds of the orchestra in combination of more studio derived sounds.

This post is left incomplete because I would like to open up a dialog on others opinions in successfully combining traditional and no traditional sounds.

Jose


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## bryla (Dec 29, 2009)

As Jack Smalley says: Have you ever heard an audience leaving the cinema humming the chord progression? 

The melody is obviously the thing that sticks with people.

A motif can however both be a melody, a sound, a progression whatever.


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## theheresy (Dec 29, 2009)

@josejherring: apparently, to the 'old timers' they never have to make that 'reconciliation' in the sense that they never end up mastering all these electronic elements, they have the luxury to have other people do it for them. 
I was reading an interview with James Horner where he was stressing how he still composes strictly on manuscript paper away from piano/keyboard etc and says he hates computers and electronics and all that. Yet the paradox is that he's actually known and famous for combining orchestral/choral/electronic elements. So where's the reconciliation? Well, he states in the interview that he just gets other people to FIND the electronic sounds for him and then he plays them in himself. So he sort of 'keeps his hands clean' of the actual dirty work of playing around with synths and all that and has other people find him sounds that he wants, presumably by him describing the sound that he wants to them, and once those sounds are given to him he just plays them in via midi keyboard himself. This is an interesting approach and I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same thing John Williams and other guys of the 'old guard' are doing.
The biggest change to MY ears with the new guard of modern composers is increasing reliance on synth loops/drum loops of all sorts. This seemed to be heralded in by Gregson Williams and maybe some others but with the prevalence of libraries like omnisphere, morphestra, etc...people just mindlessly plug these TV sounding 24-esque inspired synth loops and then put some kind of simplistic symphobia-esque crashes, stabs, stings, hits, etc over them, very percussive type music with no real orchestration or melodic writing. This is what modern music is about to me. If you want a recent good example I think something like Eagle Eye by Brian Tyler seems to encompass this sort of loopy, all brass/bass/cello type percussive writing.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 29, 2009)

This is an interesting discussion.

I'll drift away temporarily from the main topic but what was just said reminded me a bit of something that went through my mind as I was ending my last demo: "The Bull". At the end I have big stabs going on, and originally these stabs where a lot louder, and even though compressed it was very effective, I felt like in a theater in an action film, it was quite impressive. But something was bothering me about this, and I finally found what it was, during that passage we couldn't feel the environment anymore, the stabs took over 100% of the space. I had the choice of having it that way or keeping a more realistic orchestra hall sound which was about 3 to 5 dB less. Both ways had their + and -, so it was an interesting debate in my mind. I ended up going with the natural hall effect which kept it in proportion to the rest of the piece. But it did stir up some questions in me about this.


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## mathis (Dec 30, 2009)

Very interesting discussion, Jose. I think I have those 1,5 years still in front of me. I seem to be doing either orchestral or electronic music and don't really get a grip on how to combine those 2. Although I dream of that already for 15 years...


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## José Herring (Dec 30, 2009)

mathis @ Wed Dec 30 said:


> Very interesting discussion, Jose. I think I have those 1,5 years still in front of me. I seem to be doing either orchestral or electronic music and don't really get a grip on how to combine those 2. Although I dream of that already for 15 years...



I did have a brief email conversation with John Debney about his Iron Man2 score where he's mixing sound design, electric guitars and orchestra. I mentioned that every time I try to mix orchestra with non orchestral elements that I end up sounding like the Disco Duck. He mentioned that the key was to keep the rhythms simple. Straight 8ths instead of more complexed rhythmic patterns. I'm now trying to work with that. Keeping the rhythms straight ahead rather than syncopated or combinations of note values.

Wish me luck! 'Cause I have a feeling that once this film hits there's going to be a lot more of that hybrid type scoring in our future.

Jose


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## Niah (Dec 30, 2009)

Jose regarding your initial post,

I guess it doesn't take too much to guess who sent you that PM then 

Anyway it seems that your post was mostly a response to the discussion back on the avatar thread, which I haven't followed closely so I maybe out of the loop on this one.

But really I'm not sure if I get this bubble concept thing.

It may be only me, but really, I see most people in here and outside of this forum as well living in their respective bubbles. It is not often that you find someone who is really open and ready to step out of their shell.
This is why I think Vi control plays such a key role on this, it is only through the confrontation of different ideas and perspectives that we can really step out of our bubbles and have a different perception of reality. 
That is why I find that an outside perspective, is as valuable as an insider's perpective is order to comprehend reality which I believe falls somewhere in between these two.


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## José Herring (Dec 31, 2009)

Niah @ Wed Dec 30 said:


> Jose regarding your initial post,
> 
> I guess it doesn't take too much to guess who sent you that PM then
> 
> ...



I think it may be a language barrier Niah. Living "in a bubble" usually means a person who lives in his own idealized world that doesn't really conform to reality. It's like saying of a professor that he lives in an "Ivory Tower"--meaning the ideas work in theory and gain acceptance from a few people that are "in the know", but away from a select few the ideas aren't workable.

And as with everything what I post is mostly a reflection of my own triumphs and failings. I don't know of too many people that have lived longer in a bubble than I have. In part these post are part of my way of bursting the bubble to see what's on the other side.

best,

Jose


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## mathis (Dec 31, 2009)

josejherring @ Wed Dec 30 said:


> mathis @ Wed Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Very interesting discussion, Jose. I think I have those 1,5 years still in front of me. I seem to be doing either orchestral or electronic music and don't really get a grip on how to combine those 2. Although I dream of that already for 15 years...
> ...



Aha, sounds logical, actually.


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## Niah (Dec 31, 2009)

josejherring @ Thu Dec 31 said:


> Niah @ Wed Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Jose regarding your initial post,
> ...



oh, then I completely misread you, sorry about that. :oops: 

You are quite right I had different idea in mind about this "bubble" thing. thanks for clearing it out . o-[][]-o


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## José Herring (Dec 31, 2009)

Ok now for the final part:

Some of this may contradict what has come before but imo reality is often contradicting.

It's gotta come from the soul. It doesn't matter as much what kind of music you do but rather that it come from a place that you really believe in and that it be a sincere expression of thoughts and feelings.

I've only taken 1 formal composition course. I remember the professor always saying that if you didn't feel it then chances are your audience won't feel it either.

I think that the reason why Elliot Goldenthal is successful is not just the fact that he's got mad skills, but that he deeply feels what he's writing. It's got mood and depth of feeling while being really contemporary in style.

I have the curse of being musically educated. It's rather a blessing really but I do tend to look upon it as a curse as well. It's a curse in that I can write music purely from a technical standpoint. I see it more as a crutch now than anything. Back early on when I had no technique to speak of I wrote a lot of music just using my feelings and my ears and what I honestly thought matched the subject matter I was trying to express. Lately I've gone back to that way of writing hopefully with the benefit of having gained a whole lot of technical experience along the way.

For a library cue I just finished I actually went back to a theme I had written 15 year ago. A theme that I banged out by ear. I was actually surprised that the theme had a progression that was pretty weird sounding but that was melodic and quite singable. This cue was accepted without any comment for changes.

So given the fact that there are as many styles as there are people writing music the last piece of practical advice I would give (if I'm in any position to give any at all) is to make sure that you really feel what you're composing. If what you feel is just a simple melody line with some chords underneath for a score, I can point you to thousands of successful scores that rely on just that. If you feel a more ambient or avante garde type thing if it fits and you feel it go with it. In my experience nothing gets rejected faster than an insincere score or one written because some professor told you that "this is the music of the future". On the other hand remember that you're working for somebody else and you have to respect their feelings and thoughts too. Trust your feelings and not necessarily your knowledge of music or of the past musical practices. And be willing to like and accept almost every kind of music. There's beauty and feeling in many different styles and you'll be called upon to do just about every style imaginable in your efforts to get paid for your work.

kind of vague I know. But who said that music was a precises science. I wish it were. Be easier that way.

Jose


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## midphase (Dec 31, 2009)

I mostly agree with you Jose, but in my experience everyone has a different path and philosophy of what is a good execution of our craft. I'm sure anyone working at RCP is convinced that Hans is a genius and they're trying to follow in his footsteps all the way. More power to Hans and whoever is successful following such a strategy. Since moving to L.A. I've learned that there's always more to the story than it appears at fist. I know sometimes us LA folk sound snobby towards the rest of the world, but the bottom line is that you won't hear some of the "behind the scenes" truths in Kansas or Argentina that you hear around here from first hand accounts on how things really happened.

I was exposed to this almost right away, through a personal connection to someone whom some people might describe as "legendary" Imagine my surprise when after being around the guy I realized that he couldn't compose his way out of a doorknob! It was also amusing how many "toys" he had around him, his studio was practically filled up with everything imaginable, most of those toys manufacturers had sent him for free in hope to get some endorsement out of it. Yet he had no clue how to use most of the stuff. The truth of the matter is that what he was really really good at was surrounding himself with really talented young assistants whom he managed really well, but who ultimately did 90% of the actual work. It was quite eye opening (especially after looking at his Oscar statuettes). 

I hope I'm not implying that Hans does this, I'm not and I honestly don't know how he works....but what I'm saying is that you can't/shouldn't look at the way anyone conducts their craft and assume that that's the way to go. I really don't think that some of the composers who I admire set out to imitate Hans, or Horner, or Silvestri or yo mama. I think they pretty much followed their instincts and did what they felt was the "right" way of doing things. They didn't ask themselves if their compositions were too "academic" or not catchy enough, they didn't try to work out how to perfectly blend orchestras and loops, they just did it. If their orchestra/loop thing didn't sound as smooth as Powell or Gregson-Williams...so what? Maybe what defined their sound was a certain "odd" fit. 

I also think there are different "modes" in which most of us working composers operate, I don't think everything I do has to be heartfelt or that I need to connect emotionally with it. Don't get me wrong, I don't "phone it in" ever, but I don't need to create a masterpiece every time I sit down to write, sometime it's a prime rib, and sometime it's just a ham and cheese sandwich. 

Sometime what defines a style is a strong melody (Williams, Silvestri, Morricone), but that doesn't mean that a strong melody is necessary to a great score (anyone around here that can hum the "theme" from the Matrix or from Hell Boy 2?), sometime a nice chord progression is just the ticket (David Julyan anyone?), sometime a dissonant (or as someone described "atonal") score is perfect (looking at you Mr. Greenwood), and sometime you just plickety pluckety on your guitar without even looking at the film and you get an Oscar!

The bottom line is that there is no bubble and there is no reality, Jose's reality can be 180º away from mine, or Sharmy's or Phoenix and on and on. If you believe that doing exactly what so-and-so does is the key to success...go for it! If you believe that doing the exact opposite is what's going to get you on the red carpet...that's great too.

I do what I do, I have my personal opinions, and admiration (or lack of) for some people and not for others. One of my favorite film composers ever is someone who you guys have never even heard of, yet he can outcompose and outorchestrate some of the best names in the business. I think his lack of industry recognition as a film composer is mostly due to the fact that he hasn't gotten that lucky break yet, but to me, the guy is a hell of a lot more deserving of the word "genius" than some of the aforementioned people...just my opinion of course!


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## José Herring (Dec 31, 2009)

I'm not suggesting anybody copy anybody unless they want to. Actually the opposite. I think that composers should think their own way through things honestly looking at what they have to offer and how that can fit into the larger industry as a whole.

I do strongly believe that a composition stands a better chance of being accepted if one has at least some feeling for what he's writing. I'm not say that that feeling necessarily has to be deep feelings. But I think that if a composer is just composing a collection of notes that he thinks will "work" without some sort of personal connection to what he's writing he'll be working at a handicap. I also believe that if a composer works blind without an understanding of that which is going on around him that he'll run into trouble sooner or later. This latter part I consider the "bubble".

The only score that I had that was thrown out was because of this. I was asked to do a Hans Zimmer type score many years ago and I did it without any understanding or appreciation for this type of action score. It was tossed. The only thing that could of saved it was me standing up for a score that I really felt and believed in, but I couldn't do that. Because I didn't believe in it and deep down inside I knew it. Not only that but the producers I was working for could instinctively tell that I wasn't behind it emotionally. So I lost that one.

In the end most people are honest people and will honestly do the work to the best of their abilities. We all know of wankers that hire everybody to do their score for them. Personally I couldn't live with myself if I did that. I don't necessarily measure a composer based on how much money he has or awards. All that is very nice and I applaud anybody that can get those things. I know I want those things. But I do measure composers based on whether I honestly feel that they are doing the best they can given their circumstances and talents.


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## theheresy (Jan 1, 2010)

midphase @ Thu Dec 31 said:


> One of my favorite film composers ever is someone who you guys have never even heard of, yet he can outcompose and outorchestrate some of the best names in the business. I think his lack of industry recognition as a film composer is mostly due to the fact that he hasn't gotten that lucky break yet, but to me, the guy is a hell of a lot more deserving of the word "genius" than some of the aforementioned people...just my opinion of course!



who might that be, james patterson?


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## midphase (Jan 1, 2010)

Nope, I wasn't aware that the writer of Womens Murder Club was a brilliant orchestrator and composer.


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## theheresy (Jan 1, 2010)

midphase @ Fri Jan 01 said:


> Nope, I wasn't aware that the writer of Womens Murder Club was a brilliant orchestrator and composer.



woops lmao. I meant James Peterson 


http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1844939/


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## Guru007 (Jan 7, 2010)

The few times that a director has asked me to not keep it simple are the times when the director was uniquely comfortable or confident about his/her film. 
Even those times when the director wanted something minimal or melodically/harmonically simple at the start, as they gained more confidence in the film (or maybe in me, who knows), they started to loosen the reins and would actually ask me to stretch (in most instances I prefer less rather more).

An interesting anecdote: John Barry has talked about how Coppola eventually did a 180 on their original orchestral approach for THE COTTON CLUB's score. Once the film ran into trouble, the initial idea to avoid overloading the audience with too much of the same style (Jazz in the story, performances, etc, as well as in the score) fell by the way side. Barry simply replaced the low strings with a horn section and that satisfied the director.

guru007


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## videohlper (Jan 11, 2010)

midphase @ Fri Jan 01 said:


> Nope, I wasn't aware that the writer of Womens Murder Club was a brilliant orchestrator and composer.



I wish he were -- because he's certainly not a great novelist. (Just adding something useful to the conversation)


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## snowleopard (Jan 24, 2010)

This is an excellent thread. I should spend more time in this forum. I am not a working composer, but have worked in broadcasting, and filmmaking in addition to scoring some of my own, and others' small projects. 

I would have to say you are completely correct in that melodies, and simple, even common, are what most filmmakers want. I often lament that most filmmakers want what I think are bland, late 19th century sounding orchestral scores, and composers deliver. But there's a heck of a lot of room for a composer. If you aren't bent on making your living at composing for film/TV, no matter what, there's something to be said about creating a unique sound, sort of the Philip Glass situation if you will. If you can build a library and reputation that way, you may get sought out for your sound. But you'll notice that even someone as skilled as Glass isn't working constantly on films (though that may be by choice too). 

As to plagiarism or copying others, I believe it was Danny Elfman who said if you want to just get work in the industry learn to copy and rip others off and make standard arrangements. You'll get a lot of work. It may be on junky projects, but it will be there for certain. Partly because a lot of filmmakers don't know music very well, and there's almost NO instruction in film school, or even independently, on how to work with music in film as a filmmaker. As a result, you'll find a lot of filmmakers who want you to create a score that sounds like Williams/Horner/Zimmer, etc. The other issue that I'm going to guess a lot of us have seen filmmakers temp track a film with music that they fall completely in love with and want you to re-create. Jeff Rona writes on the perils of this in his book.


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## José Herring (Jan 24, 2010)

I think whether the lead theme is bland or not depends a lot on the composer. I also think you have to know the comfort level of your film makers. Give them enough of what they're looking for so you don't get fired, but also know where you can push them beyond that zone so that you can do something new and original. It's a tough balance to strike and one that depends on who you're working for and what you're doing.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jan 24, 2010)

I personally don't use temp scores or themes to explain to a director what I think could work with the film, but use popular composer references instead.

It has somewhat helped me in the past a lot.


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## José Herring (Jan 24, 2010)

That's a good idea Nathan.


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## mjc (Jan 25, 2010)

josejherring @ Mon Jan 25 said:


> I think whether the lead theme is bland or not depends a lot on the composer. I also think you have to know the comfort level of your film makers. Give them enough of what they're looking for so you don't get fired, but also know where you can push them beyond that zone so that you can do something new and original. It's a tough balance to strike and one that depends on who you're working for and what you're doing.



+1

That's my approach to everything (or more like most things)...I do a lot more arranging/producing than film scoring, but that's how I think whether it's a director, or a singer/songwriter wanting to add new sounds too his/her palette. If I have the time, I sometimes do alternate versions of the same cue/song (usually a lot more 'risqué' or what _I_ would prefer). Can't hurt, half the time I'm pleasantly surprised on what the client likes 

PS. Risqué was probably wrong use of word haha...I mean more 'original'


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## poseur (Jan 25, 2010)

dupe post deleted.


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## poseur (Jan 25, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Sun Jan 24 said:


> I personally don't use temp scores or themes to explain to a director what I think could work with the film, but use popular composer references instead.
> It has somewhat helped me in the past a lot.



whereas, i consciously avoid that;
i do not wanna initiate that particular type of conversation, if at all possible.

clearly, we're all a bit different.

and:
sorry, nathan; nothing personal, here, & i'm not asking this disingenuously, but:
how can something _"somewhat"_ help you, _"a lot"_?

dt


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## Andreas Moisa (Jan 25, 2010)

I just caught up with the discussion and it's really interesting. Refering to the first part: I noticed something very interesting in many films. In 8 of 10 times the filmmakers will use a song or another pre-existing piece of music at the climax of the movie as opposed to "trust" their composer with this task. 

And a little anecdote: Once we were asked to write some kind of jingle. We had five different approaches but were asked to strip down to an obscure mix of sound design and a single timpani roll and some synth c major chord...
I'm ashamed of the end product now. But that's what they wanted...


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## choc0thrax (Jan 25, 2010)

poseur @ Mon Jan 25 said:


> sorry, nathan; nothing personal, here, & i'm not asking this disingenuously, but:
> how can something _"somewhat"_ help you, _"a lot"_?
> 
> dt



Maybe it's sort of helped him on many occasions...or something.


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## midphase (Jan 25, 2010)

It's over! It's over! We're all finished thanks to this app:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QxN1u7KWDM


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jan 25, 2010)

midphase @ Mon Jan 25 said:


> It's over! It's over! We're all finished thanks to this app:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QxN1u7KWDM



That's kind of awesome for sketching, assuming it lets you record.

Doesn't WIVI have something like this too?

EDIT: Yup they do.



> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn_uBjKTnkQ




And as far as the composer reference thing. I use it when they don't understand what I'm talking about. I can't say musical terms to most directors, as they don't understand them. To say the terms "Dark and brooding" usually have 20 different styles that go with it.

Most directors come into your face (and these are indie directors mind you) with temp scores and song references. I'm not in the business to do a direct copy or inspired copy, so using references usually works better.

But yes, if I can I try to avoid it. It just never happens.


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## Blackster (Jan 25, 2010)

midphase @ Mon Jan 25 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QxN1u7KWDM



Not bad at all !! Really enjoyed watching the video. I guess for talented singers this is a perfect tool !! Great. Too sad I go with a NokiaE71


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