# Attention to developers...piracy on e-bay maybe?



## amorphosynthesis (Sep 17, 2017)

After some research on ebay i have found some sellers that suppose to sell kontakt player libraries with no need for a serial such as cinematic strings 2,or chris hein strings at a micro fraction of the original cost....i am not going to post possible pirate links here,but if the developers want to act,just type their product name on ebay search bar.maybe someone has to inform ebay for that


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## gsilbers (Sep 17, 2017)

amorphosynthesis said:


> After some research on ebay i have found some sellers that suppose to sell kontakt player libraries with no need for a serial such as cinematic strings 2,or chris hein strings at a micro fraction of the original cost....i am not going to post possible pirate links here,but if the developers want to act,just type their product name on ebay search bar.maybe someone has to inform ebay for that



its also in craiglist... here in LA... where a lot of libraries are based off. i mean, you can find spectrasoincs pirated stuff there and its where eric and the spectrasoincs gang live. i have no clue why not do a sting operation or somthing. call the guy up to get a copy, have a cop buy it and arrest him. if it where torrent or some sort of abstract idea of tehc companies taking other poeple content, making money out of it and its not their problem if its pirated or not.. then well, maybe. . but a guys selling it online where you meet him in person. its just like selling a stolen bike.


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## Quasar (Sep 17, 2017)

NI have themselves become pirates due to their betrayal of support for offline activation. Who do we report them to?


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## Fab (Sep 17, 2017)

Interesting but yeah...duhhh, been like that for ages. Best thing is to notify ebay and they will remove the listings...most of the time. I used to report suspicious stuff for a while but then it started to feel like a job so I gave up!

Hopefully enough of a stir will eventually cause ebay and similar sites to take a more active stance on this type of thing?


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## Shubus (Sep 17, 2017)

We really have to get eBay and Craig's List to stop this. We here want to support our library developers so maybe if we and the developers complain that will help matters.


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## ctsai89 (Sep 17, 2017)

This is why developers all need to watermark their samples. The majority of people know that it isn't a scare tactic and would rather buy libraries, not pirate stuff.


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## gsilbers (Sep 17, 2017)

Shubus said:


> We really have to get eBay and Craig's List to stop this. We here want to support our library developers so maybe if we and the developers complain that will help matters.



its this whole deal with big tech companies getting away with so many things under the umbrella its not me.. someone else did the wrong thing in my site. To me is the same as having the director of a high school allow gang member who sell drugs on their premise and invite them over AND charge them a fee to hang out and sell drugs. or charge a fee to sell jail bonds ads on the premise just in front of them gang members. if a kid ODs or there is an issue due to it, who will get the blame? 
A developer should easily sue craiglist and ebay for allowing this. But but.. its not them and its not their fault, you say? 
well, tough luck! you have to make them obey the law just like any other company. Like having to screen ALL posts, create complex algo's etc. its not our problem. with all this future tech mumbo jumbo and all the greatnes and "grey" areas of digital laws... lawmakers and enforncers just let it slide for the case of innovation. what makes stealing an object form a store any more than a "real" issue than a dvd of a movie or a digital copy of something? did the digital copy not require thousands of man hours to create?


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## Mike Fox (Sep 17, 2017)

There used to be a guy on ebay that would sell bootlegged ProjectSAM stuff. What a tool.


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## Krayh (Sep 18, 2017)

Whats the big deal? 99% of the libraries can be downloaded for free, most of the people who use warez wouldnt bought the product in the first place, and use the libraries just for fun. So no loss in my opinion....


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## ghandizilla (Sep 18, 2017)

Buying a library (I mean, legally buying) lets you:
1 - have *tech support*
2 - have *updates*
3 - have the *license *to sell tracks using the samples of the library, avoiding you legal issues (since an editor can actually check if you're on the customers database)

So I'd tend to opinate that if someone uses a pirated copy, he loses a great deal, so if someone can afford a library, I don't believe he would hesitate much. It's difficult not to underestimate nor overestimate the piracy problem. If you underestimate the problem (see point 3), you lose money, if you overestimate the problem, the copy protections may be dissuasive for legit customers, and furthermore, you may also lose other clients (I actually know people who came to buy softwares after having pirated and liked them, so this scheme may replicate concerning sample libraries).

The main issue here with this ebay matter is that it's deceptive. Some customers will _believe _they have a legit copy.


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## Krayh (Sep 18, 2017)

Balefire said:


> I used to have some sympathy with that argument... until I realised it's bollocks.
> 
> Because what that argument boils down to is that developers should give away their products for free to people who can't afford it and/or who say they're just going to use it for non-commercial purposes.



Yes that would be a smart move. Maybe that "amateur" makes a great track, makes a carreer move, and BUYS all their software. 

The thing is, someone who cant afford their software, is never ever cappable of BUYING the software. So it will never ever be a loss that that someone is "using" their product. If you gave it away for free (under non commercial purposes) there is a chance you "create" a future customer.

Why do you think it's so easy to use/get warezed Adobe products, believe me adobe knows about these cracked software versions, but they dont care because they know there's a chance, that people who are using cracked software, will be a future customer. I was one of them... now I'am a paying customer...


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## trumpoz (Sep 19, 2017)

Seriously Krayh that is a ridiculous argument. The simple fact is someone is using their product without paying for it - a future customer.....no.

Go and contact any developer and tell them that you would like their software but will only pay for it once you start making money out of it. You may receive a polite email back but the devs will be thinking something completely different.


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## gsilbers (Sep 19, 2017)

Krayh said:


> Yes that would be a smart move. Maybe that "amateur" makes a great track, makes a carreer move, and BUYS all their software.
> 
> The thing is, someone who cant afford their software, is never ever cappable of BUYING the software. So it will never ever be a loss that that someone is "using" their product. If you gave it away for free (under non commercial purposes) there is a chance you "create" a future customer.
> 
> Why do you think it's so easy to use/get warezed Adobe products, believe me adobe knows about these cracked software versions, but they dont care because they know there's a chance, that people who are using cracked software, will be a future customer. I was one of them... now I'am a paying customer...




that might be true if we are talking about IF scenarios where someone cant really affor a spitfire library. how about a $40 software thats also cracked? would that someone say.. "hey.. i can easily spend $40 instead of doing a quick search and download". ?

adobe is doing the subscirption model and there is still cracked cversions. you can get adobe for about $10-$40 a month and could easily be afforded and anyone can just try it out for a month if they need it and discontinue. Yet.,, there is a cracked version?! Adobe and no company wants their software cracked. 

that piracy is just piracy and thieves. they will just keep downloading anything , everything no matter what or reason. they can get away with it they will do it. 

my analogy would be like leaving your bike in fron of your house without a chain. kid might pass by and say hey! ill take this bike cool. but if its inside a building and chained.. then thats a risk and could take him to ass rape-felony charges. a determent which might have the kid go on and save for a bike, pay instalments for a bike, or just dont care about a bike. if the kids keeps seeing bikes unatended he will take them. and do the same as an adult. 
so right now, those torrent sites are just hackers enabling software to be taken with no risk. and those taking the software might be able to buy it or not. we dont know but there is no way of knowing which is why there are laws in the 1st place. 

and not to mention the old saying, if you are not paying for a product, you ARE the product. you get malware and viruses.


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## JonSolo (Sep 19, 2017)

I just can't believe what some people post publicly. They hide behind anonymity to protect their bad deeds. This world as a whole makes me sad sometimes. So many evade the golden rule.


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## Krayh (Sep 19, 2017)

JonSolo said:


> I just can't believe what some people post publicly. They hide behind anonymity to protect their bad deeds. This world as a whole makes me sad sometimes. So many evade the golden rule.



I just said I BECAME a PAYING customer. If adobe products were uncrackable and I wasnt able to "use" their products before hand, I NEVER became a paying customer... (and yes for many people 50 euros a month is still to much)


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## Krayh (Sep 19, 2017)

Also another thing with cracked libraries is that you can TEST them before BUYING. How many of you have been delusionized with the next big thing sample library, you hear a handfull of excelent sound track demos, you put a few hundred down, and then after playing with it, realized it was not what it was you were thinking it would be?

Sorry NO REFUND...

So yes all the libraries I own, have been testdrived rigorously...


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## ghandizilla (Sep 19, 2017)

It's difficult to make generalities. There are chances a pirate will never buy anything, and chances a pirate will end up buying things. As I sketched it earlier: difficult to underestimate nor overestimate the problem. I often see legit customers turn away from a product they are interested in because of the iLok protection. As early as last week, I saw a legit customer (a teacher at the music school I work in) use a pirated copy of the EastWest product he uses instead of the legit one he _actually _bought because of the anti-piracy protection. And what strikes me is that pirated products are amputed: no updates, no support, a serious user can not possibly rely on that. So, it's difficult to stress a picture of piracy that has actually multiple shades, as it is in reality.


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## mac (Sep 21, 2017)

I'd be fine if all devs used a syncrosoft key if it minimised piracy. It's hilarious watching people still desperately scrambling to find a copy of nexus years after it was last cracked 

There's so much quality free and super low priced options available now that the 'gateway to buying legit' argument doesn't really hold water anymore.


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## C.R. Rivera (Sep 21, 2017)

As a humorous aside, historically this topic has been talked to perpetual death since the invention of the printing press.
I can imagine Guttenberg requiring a "dongle" for people to "activate" their purchases to make sure it was not a pirated copy. Or, even better, Will Shakespeare proclaiming that "the 'xerox' will be the end of classic plays and literature". 

What I suspect, and if you read latest trades objectively, piracy/IP snagging has been a long term undertaking, and one that will probably bedevil future generations. Laws might prohibit, but technology will overtake again and again. The UK now has a provision of 10 year jail sentences, but one notices that even in the US, murder has not been defeated, even if there are laws against it.

Cheers

CRR


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## EvilDragon (Sep 21, 2017)

Quasar said:


> NI have themselves become pirates due to their betrayal of support for offline activation. Who do we report them to?



What a load of bull. You may have been sarcastic, but if you're not, this is the stupidest thing I've read in a while...

In fact, bypassing online activation schemes _is one of things that actual pirates do._ So offline activation is MORE of a pirate thing than anything else, if we're going to follow the logic of your statement (which is no logic at all, if we're honest).


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## Quasar (Sep 21, 2017)

The comment was hyperbolic, I admit, but they did "hijack" their terms & conditions, changing the direction of their ship in "mid-passage" as it were, after many of us had already invested heavily into their ecosphere, were already passengers on the boat. Isn't that what pirates do?

And the broader, sarcastic point I guess is that people on these sorts of forums love to get self-righteously up-in-arms over abuses performed by hackers on the low end, but too often overlook or excuse whatever new rules are imposed from the high-end, from positions of corporate (and in Ni's case, monopolistic) power.

In the arena of software commerce, term "piracy" is a catch-all buzzword exploited to justify all manner of draconian, lockdown EULAS and CP in exactly the same way that "terrorism" is used by politicians in the wider society to justify measures that result in the decimation of civil liberties in general. IMHO we would be better-served by expending less energy moralizing about the kid at the torrent site and instead engage more attention to consumer rights and fairness for the honest end-user. Justice is not a natural byproduct of a system that exists only to serve capital. If we want justice, we have to demand it.


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## bigcat1969 (Sep 21, 2017)

One of the ideas behind the free instrument PD/CC idea is to take away the excuse that you can't make music without stealing. While certainly far from the quality of Berlin / Spitfire, there are passable free SFZ and VSTi orchestral instruments and combined with the Tracktion DAW anyone with a passable computer can make music for free.

All the other 'reasons' are just excuses for theft.


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## Mystic (Sep 21, 2017)

Krayh said:


> Whats the big deal? 99% of the libraries can be downloaded for free, most of the people who use warez wouldnt bought the product in the first place, and use the libraries just for fun. So no loss in my opinion....



Most people who buy libraries aren't professionals. These companies make money mostly from hobbyists and people who have aspirations which is why you'll find many of them no longer sell single libraries for thousands like they used to. The prices have dropped over the years significantly but the fact remains that this is how these people put food on their table. Plus, there are plenty of people who buy libraries... until it hits the scene. There have been plenty of developers even here who have talked about their sales tanking the day their stuff hits torrent sites.


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## Zardoz (Sep 21, 2017)

I guess the thing for me is - you can't afford to pay $30 a month for EastWest Composer Cloud but you can pay for the expensive computer to run it on? Were your computer and midi keyboard "borrowed" because you couldn't afford to pay for those too? Of course not because that would obviously be stealing. 

There are a lot of things I would love to have - a Lamborghini, a nice villa in the south of France, etc. - but I accept that I don't have the means to buy such things and enjoy driving my minivan and living in my little house in the suburbs instead. 

Yes some of these libraries are expensive and out of the reach of some who want them, but libraries like the ones from Spitfire and Orchestral Tools are meant for _professionals_ and are priced accordingly. Take a look at other hobbies/professions and see how much the professional level tools are. I'm really into photography and there are lenses out there in the 10s of thousands of dollars. But photographers don't break into camera stores and steal lenses under the auspices of "but I can't afford it!".


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## Desire Inspires (Sep 22, 2017)

Piracy doesn't hurt sales?!?

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/eu-withheld-study-shows-piracy-154200196.html


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## mouse (Sep 22, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> Piracy doesn't hurt sales?!?
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/eu-withheld-study-shows-piracy-154200196.html



Was just about to post this!


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## JonSolo (Sep 22, 2017)

Honestly, I never thought piracy hurt sales. I just think of the low-lifes that break the law. Criminals should be treated like criminals. Theft is theft at any level.

And while sales may not be hurting, devs can't tell or don't know differently...therefore, the prices still go up in an attempt to recoup something they may have never had. That or they invest money into protection methods which are then passed on to the buyer. So piracy DOES hurt paying customers, even though sales MAY or MAY NOT be affected (and I find very few studies that are not skewed in one direction or another). But even that I don't care about. I just want law breakers where they belong.


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## Mike Fox (Sep 22, 2017)

Quasar said:


> The comment was hyperbolic, I admit, but they did "hijack" their terms & conditions, changing the direction of their ship in "mid-passage" as it were, after many of us had already invested heavily into their ecosphere, were already passengers on the boat. Isn't that what pirates do?
> 
> And the broader, sarcastic point I guess is that people on these sorts of forums love to get self-righteously up-in-arms over abuses performed by hackers on the low end, but too often overlook or excuse whatever new rules are imposed from the high-end, from positions of corporate (and in Ni's case, monopolistic) power.
> 
> In the arena of software commerce, term "piracy" is a catch-all buzzword exploited to justify all manner of draconian, lockdown EULAS and CP in exactly the same way that "terrorism" is used by politicians in the wider society to justify measures that result in the decimation of civil liberties in general. IMHO we would be better-served by expending less energy moralizing about the kid at the torrent site and instead engage more attention to consumer rights and fairness for the honest end-user. Justice is not a natural byproduct of a system that exists only to serve capital. If we want justice, we have to demand it.


I agree with a lot of this. What actually bothers me just as much as the punks illegally downloading software are developers who don't allow the resale of their licenses so that they can make more money. Seems both sides are as equally greedy.


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## Replicant (Sep 22, 2017)

JonSolo said:


> Honestly, I never thought piracy hurt sales



Piracy, much like beginners working for free, is (as many insist) a killer of hopes and dreams for financial success for "the industry", collectively.

Yet somehow, despite all the piracy, people making music for crappy indie films for next to nothing, and many of us _exclusively_ buying these libraries at as much as 75% discounts on sales, companies like 8Dio manage to produce and release exorbitantly-priced software _every single year._



mikefox789 said:


> I agree with a lot of this. What actually bothers me just as much as the punks illegally downloading software are developers who don't allow the resale of their licenses so that they can make more money. Seems both sides are as equally greedy.



Because that's the way of the software-industry. You _have_ to defeat those pirates; so treat every consumer as if they are a pirate.

I mean, all my stuff is legit, but this ship has sailed since at least 2001 — _people are going to pirate your stuff,_ but far too many companies, bands, etc. treat it as this boogeyman to shift blame onto.


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## Quasar (Sep 22, 2017)

mikefox789 said:


> I agree with a lot of this. What actually bothers me just as much as the punks illegally downloading software are developers who don't allow the resale of their licenses so that they can make more money. Seems both sides are as equally greedy.


I agree that people should have the right to resell their licenses, although this doesn't personally bother me and I don't make buying decisions based on this. But when you have the dual realities of not being able to try before you buy + not being able to resell, it puts the consumer in a most unfair position.

Plus, if you think about it, the whole packaging of software is kind of bogus. You begin an installation and a EULA opens up that you can agree to or not. But of course by this time you're already past the point where you can disagree with the terms and get your money back. So there's no real choice but to agree, and thus culturally EULAs are nothing except little boxes to click yes to. It's all they mean to virtually any end-user.

It's ironic to me that software, which by it's very nature exists in potentially unlimited quantity, utilizes the resource distribution paradigms that were created out of necessity because of natural material scarcity. I can understand this to a degree, because everyone has to make a living within the framework of the economic system we currently have. But to lock down software rights of usage _far beyond_ that which we take for granted for hardware is absurd and unfair. If I buy a power drill, I don''t have to sign an agreement that I will never sell it, that I won't let my neighbor borrow it etc... It seems that software purchases should at least confer something akin to the same privileges of hardware ownership, with reasonable limitations imposed to prevent redistribution in the ways that are physically impossible with hardware.

If civilization survives to advance to the point of Star Trek-like replicators, we'll have the same issue with 3D objects. Captain Picard will ask the machine for his cup of Earl Grey tea and be told that his authorization failed...


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## thesteelydane (Sep 23, 2017)

Krayh said:


> Whats the big deal? 99% of the libraries can be downloaded for free, most of the people who use warez wouldnt bought the product in the first place, and use the libraries just for fun. So no loss in my opinion....



So if I go into a hardware store and steal a hammer, it's ok, because you see I'm not a professional builder, I just like hammering in nails in my spare time for fun, so no loss to anyone right? The hardware store and the hammer company make plenty of money selling hammers to professional builders, right? I don't intend to make money with that hammer, so it should be free, right? 

Yeah, the "for fun" argument doesn't hold up IMHO.


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## Mystic (Sep 23, 2017)

thesteelydane said:


> So if I go into a hardware store and steal a hammer, it's ok, because you see I'm not a professional builder, I just like hammering in nails in my spare time for fun, so no loss to anyone right? The hardware store and the hammer company make plenty of money selling hammers to professional builders, right? I don't intend to make money with that hammer, so it should be free, right?
> 
> Yeah, the "for fun" argument doesn't hold up IMHO.


No no! That doesn't hold any weight because that's a TANGIBLE ITEM. When you download something, nothing is lost!


...except food on the developers table or money to the company needed to develop new products. But who cares about that, right? I mean, after all, the people downloading aren't professionals and don't have money for this really expensive professional tool.

The excuses to justify piracy always make me facepalm.


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## Desire Inspires (Sep 23, 2017)

Well if enough people would simply scrap the samples/VST/MIDi garbage, pick up a real instrument, take the time to learn proper theory and technique, practice until proficient, and practice more until perfect, the world would be a better place. Too much uninspired, derivative, dross, and robotic music clogging up the system.


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## mouse (Sep 23, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> Well if enough people would simply scrap the samples/VST/MIDi garbage, pick up a real instrument, take the time to learn proper theory and technique, practice until proficient, and practice more until perfect, the world would be a better place. Too much uninspired, derivative, dross, and robotic music clogging up the system.



Could we hear some of your inspiring, original music?


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## JonSolo (Sep 23, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> Well if enough people would simply scrap the samples/VST/MIDi garbage, pick up a real instrument, take the time to learn proper theory and technique, practice until proficient, and practice more until perfect, the world would be a better place. Too much uninspired, derivative, dross, and robotic music clogging up the system.


Off topic. Heh.


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## mac (Sep 23, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> Well if enough people would simply scrap the samples/VST/MIDi garbage, pick up a real instrument, take the time to learn proper theory and technique, practice until proficient, and practice more until perfect, the world would be a better place. Too much uninspired, derivative, dross, and robotic music clogging up the system.



Yeah, my neighbours would love me to start learning the taiko, kettledrum, and tuba.


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## RRBE Sound (Oct 12, 2017)

Very interesting debate! - I am, as a hopeful young composer, more drawn to the idea of buying my next great library and then use it until I know the great aspects and features of it. I think this makes much more sense than to just download all of the huge and great libraries for them just to be there in my library tab. 

Being against piracy, I am hoping for more developers to make demo patches for future/new consumers to try and then decide whether or not to purchase.

As already mentioned most core consumers of these products are like me (trying to fulfil dreams and hops) or hobbyist. And for me, I make a great deal of what I use my head earned money on.

I do not know if my point makes sense..But that's my opinion.


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## Replicant (Oct 12, 2017)

RRBE Sound said:


> Very interesting debate! - I am, as a hopeful young composer, more drawn to the idea of buying my next great library and then use it until I know the great aspects and features of it. I think this makes much more sense than to just download all of the huge and great libraries for them just to be there in my library tab.
> 
> Being against piracy, I am hoping for more developers to make demo patches for future/new consumers to try and then decide whether or not to purchase.
> 
> ...



IMO, a better business model is needed. We need more (optional) subscription models, more trials (8Dio is doing this I see), greater price drops on positively _ancient_ software, more updates to existing products, and the ability to sell the damn product if you've no further need or want of it.

People shit on the composer cloud, but I think it's absolutely the way forward; especially given how over-priced so many sample libraries are to buy outright.

and I know people are going to be on me about that point, but I stand by it. I've found myself disappointed to some degree with a majority of purchases that I've made; there is no way to try it before I buy it and I can't even resell the thing.

For example, East West's Ra still sells for a regular 399 USD, features archaic programming, no true legato, etc. but you can buy Eduardo Tarilonte's (the one dev I've never had any complaints with) Ancient Era: Persia, for nearly half the price, which runs in a better player, true legato, better programming and has more instruments pertaining to the ancient world than the other product which is also over 10 years old.

I also have Cinebrass Core, and while it's mostly great, I only had audio demos, reviews (which are rarely completely honest) and user testimony to go buy, but I found the lack of legato Trombone more disappointing than I thought it would be and velocity layers really _are_ in short supply, but it still cost me nearly 600 CAD. I assume "you need to get pro, too" is a response to this? Just...fuck. At least Mike Patti updates things.

Meanwhile, I just built an octacore-CPU-powered, brand new computer for a friend, using fairly contemporary (not second-hand) parts, and kept the cost of doing so under 500$.


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## Mystic (Oct 12, 2017)

I despise the subscription model. I much prefer these companies go the route of Rent To Own which seems to be becoming more popular.


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## jcrosby (Oct 12, 2017)

Mystic said:


> I despise the subscription model. I much prefer these companies go the route of Rent To Own which seems to be becoming more popular.


Amen to that. I'm surprised Xfer is still the only company to have the balls and scruples to do rent to own.

As far as piracy on Ebay, it's littered with it. From someone who's been through this a few times the reality is Ebay isn't even slightly concerned about sellers fencing stolen or pirated merch. They pretend to give a shit when you can prove you've been screwed, but you'd be nauseated how often you'll see the same seller still aloud to sell despite multiple strikes (and comments blatantly stating stolen merch)... Personally I stay off there unless I'm looking for something that simply can't be found anywhere else...


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 12, 2017)

mouse said:


> Could we hear some of your inspiring, original music?



+++1 lmfao..it reminds of the bull in the china shop


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## Jaap (Oct 13, 2017)

jcrosby said:


> Amen to that. I'm surprised Xfer is still the only company to have the balls and scruples to do rent to own.



Izotope also went that road with Ozone 8 and Neutron 2 via Splice


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## jcrosby (Oct 14, 2017)

Yeah, but if you do the math Izotope's price is nowhere near as fair Xfer's. By the time you've paid off the Izotope bundle you're way beyond their new policy of 12 months of tech support. Xfer on the other hand has rock solid support and aren't gouging anyone here. Izotope I'd argue are somewhat... (they've haven't done the _12 months of support_ thing previously, at least as far as I know... It appears to be a new day for them...)

Think of it like this, under Xfer's model once you've paid it off you're good. (Even if they charged a small upgrade fee for a theoretical version 2 they won'tbe charging $300 for Serum.) With Izotope/Splice you can't pay off the balance by the time they're most assuredly come out with next year's release; (a year from now by all recent accounts... For naysayers look at Apple. This is the model they've moved to, annual upgrade cycles, limited support....) You simply can't pay off the Splice price in that time frame... Looking at the model in those terms - if you haven't finished paying it off by next years release you don't qualify for next years pricing...

I've been a fan of Izotope for a long time, but someone put some potent ass shit in their water cooler; none of this resembles the company I once supported heavily... Their polices have changed and this looks more like chasing easy money.


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## AlexRuger (Oct 14, 2017)

Totally down with the rent to own model. I bought Serum and every month when I get the email I'm like "oh yeah, still paying that $9.99, right..." It's so easy, you just forget about it. Would love to see more companies adopt it.


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## Replicant (Oct 14, 2017)

The problem I have with a rent-to-own model is a matter of restraint.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 14, 2017)

The argument that goes:

Person 1-"piracy is illegal"
Person 2-"yeah but you can't stop
it, so look on the bright side, maybe some people will eventually buy it" has always annoyed me, because it's stealing and I think stealing is ethically and legally wrong.

Person 1-"Murder is illegal"
Person 2- "yeah but you can't stop it so look on the bright side-it helps with population control, and some people just NEED to be murdered-especially those software thieves."


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## bjderganc (Oct 14, 2017)

‘Rent to own’ would probably be impossible to implement into Kontakt products currently. How does it work with Serum if the user hasn’t paid? I’m assuming the plugin talks to the Xfer site at every launch.


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## Replicant (Oct 14, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> The argument that goes:
> 
> Person 1-"piracy is illegal"
> Person 2-"yeah but you can't stop
> it, so look on the bright side, maybe some people will eventually buy it" has always annoyed me, because it's stealing and I think stealing is ethically and legally wrong.



Except no one is making that argument.

The argument that is people are still able to profit, a lot of profit in many cases, despite the existence of piracy (which has always been a thing). So blaming "piracy" for your companies failure in 2017, isn't really an excuse.

There is also the matter that, with how much bullshit you often have to go through to obtain something legally, piracy is the easier route. I have two different USB dongles sticking out of my computer, it took weeks to get my copy of Ra authorized by East West because the serial key was wrong, I had a million different accounts on places before I just said "to hell with it" and opted to make as many purchases as I can from Best Service instead, I had to download and install proprietary clients that I immediately removed afterwards, etc.

Meanwhile, some 15 year old out there probably spent half an hour on bittorrent and has the thing installed, cracked, and up and running by now.

Lastly, like I said before, so much stuff is way over-priced. There is no artistic pursuit that is as expensive to get into as composing music. You need to buy or build a desk, a chair, a powerful computer, a monitor, a keyboard, a mouse, a MIDI controller, speakers, an audio interface, recording software, and then you still need to buy virtual instruments — generally by instrument family, and even if they're over a decade old and a high-seller, many still run you _halfway to a thousand American dollars; _more if you opt to get non-player-compatible Kontakt instruments from companies like 8Dio who will charge you _double_ what other companies charge for the same damn thing, and that currency exchange rate is _brutal_. Yet, such companies still release 4-digit-cost Kontakt sets every year.

A better business model is needed.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 14, 2017)

I loved that you put "piracy" in quotes. 

So, the cost of entry into a business justifies theft? So the difficulty of installation justifies theft? We disagree.

Btw, the cost of composing music is, assuming one has been educated in one form or another, about $20- to purchase some score paper and a number of pencils.


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## Krayh (Oct 15, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> The argument that goes:
> 
> 
> "yeah but you can't stop
> it, so look on the bright side, maybe some people will eventually buy it" *has always annoyed me*, because it's stealing and I think stealing is ethically and legally wrong.



You know what always annoyed me! People who are barking left and right about ethics and morality, while they have done similar things in the past themselves! Even if it only was stealing a cookie from your grandmothers cookie jar...


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## NYC Composer (Oct 15, 2017)

Krayh said:


> You know what always annoyed me! People who are barking left and right about ethics and morality, while they have done similar things in the past themselves! Even if it only was stealing a cookie from your grandmothers cookie jar...


Your logic is unassailable. You win.


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## JonSolo (Oct 15, 2017)

Krayh said:


> You know what always annoyed me! People who are barking left and right about ethics and morality, while they have done similar things in the past themselves! Even if it only was stealing a cookie from your grandmothers cookie jar...



So who is right? The kid who stole the cookie and keeps making excuses for it or grandma for scolding him and trying to correct him? We are not talking about what people have done in their pasts. NO ONE HERE has scolded anyone for something that happened a long time ago. This is about correcting excuses and calling them for what they are: wrong. Made a mistake? Fine. Made an excuse for it? No. Even Grandma wasn't having that.


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## Fleer (Oct 15, 2017)

Replicant said:


> There is also the matter that, with how much bullshit you often have to go through to obtain something legally. ...
> 
> Meanwhile, some 15 year old out there probably spent half an hour on bittorrent and has the thing installed, cracked, and up and running by now.
> 
> ...


Some valid arguments. First, don’t leave your door wide open, but also don’t make it too difficult to obtain your product. If it’s a Kontakt library, make it Kontakt Player compatible, that should suffice to keep away most “occasional” thieves. Forget about the hardcore ones, they’ll get caught sooner or later, as their thievery won’t be limited to music software. Second, provide good support and regular updates. People always prefer comfort above pain. And finally, adopt a business model allowing for price (and, to a certain extent, product) differentiation between professionals and amateurs.
Rest assured, most of us know what’s ethical and what’s not, so that shouldn’t be the issue here. The main issue is how to effectively and efficiently limit the consequences of piracy.


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## synthpunk (Oct 15, 2017)




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## Lee Blaske (Oct 15, 2017)

I don't have a problem with companies not allowing resale of libraries, if that's their wish. Sample libraries aren't instruments like a saxophone. They're actual content. Blood and guts performances by real people. That's what you're buying. Even if you were allowed to "sell" the library software, the content you bought still remains on everything you used it on, and the pieces of music you made with them could still be earning you money. And if you used the libraries on live performances, the money you earned for those performances could still be in your bank account. The only way you could really relinquish your ownership of a sample library would be to have a time machine so you could go back and erase any traces that you've ever used, profited from, or advanced your career with that library.

The more we treat any form of software or recordings as being intangible (and steal-able, without any consequence), the more we ALL are standing on shaky ground as far as being able to make a living at this profession goes.

People who pirate undermine all of us. I really believe that anyone producing sample content should be free to set the terms under which they are selling it. It's not for us to decide what's fair for them. Ultimately, our only right is making the decision to buy/use or not to buy/use the products under the terms put forth. But, that's a powerful right.

I'm really weary of the rationalizations put forth by people pirating software. They don't have the blessings of the companies from which they are stealing. They're just getting away with theft because enforcement is so difficult.


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 15, 2017)

You're arguing against yourself there. On the one hand you are saying it's fine to prevent resale of libraries as they aren't like a saxophone, and in the next sentence you are saying we should not treat them as intangibles.

You can't have it both ways....

I understand and respect the need for copy protection. But don't treat your customers as if they are all thieves in the same process.

I remember a program that used to be an industry standard in DTP called Quark Xpress. They treat their customers badly - very poor support and their copy protection system was so onerous and prone to issues that I know many companies that bought the required number of licences to remain legal, and installed and used the cracked version of the software as it was more reliable. The industry standard is now InDesign.

The thing with pirates is that they don't really care - if they can't steal your product, then they will steal a similar one made by someone else. Piracy is, unfortunately, a fact of life, like death and taxes, you're not going to eradicate it - so you need to be practical about it - no matter how galling it is to see people steal your hard work.


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## Lee Blaske (Oct 15, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> You're arguing against yourself there. On the one hand you are saying it's fine to prevent resale of libraries as they aren't like a saxophone, and in the next sentence you are saying we should not treat them as intangibles.
> 
> You can't have it both ways....



I'm not at all having it "both ways." You are not the one who gets to define the agreements and set the terms. It's the company or person that's making the content that gets to decide. If I want to take my content and put it out in the world for everyone to consume free of charge, that's my right. If, however, I want to sell it (or rent it) with a particular set of privileges and restrictions, that's also my right. Just because one company is doing things a certain way doesn't mean every other company is expected to follow suit. The marketplace should honor my terms if they are legal and permissible under law. There should be consequences for people who don't honor my terms. It's called "civilization." 

There's been a lot of whacky rationalization going on in this thread. Piracy may be a fact of life like taxes, but there are a lot of people who have suffered serious consequences for not paying their taxes.


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## Fleer (Oct 15, 2017)

Civilization is all about gentle people gently discussing how things could improve for all.


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 15, 2017)

Lee Blaske said:


> The marketplace should honor my terms if they are legal and permissible under law. There should be consequences for people who don't honor my terms. It's called "civilization."



I used to work very closely with the manufacturer of a specialist vertical market software package. It cost many thousands of pounds a copy, and was dongle protected. Of course, it got cracked and illegally distributed. It cost us a lot of money.

Yes - There should be consequences for these pirates but there aren't - not really - not in practice. How is a manufacturer of software going to recover money against lost sales against a young hacker (with very little in the way of assets) in a bedroom in Russia, or the Far East. The simple answer is you are not.

In my my business career I once looked into legally enforcing a signed legal contract with a company inside another EU country, and the costs involved were so horrendous and the risks of the case failing procedurally so great that it would have been foolish to proceed. That was in a country with whom we had a strong shared legal framework.

Most software houses I have worked with have to take a practical approach - piracy is a fact of life and your wish that the 'marketplace should honour my terms' is, sadly, attempting to deal with the world as you would wish it to be rather than how it actually works.

We used to joke that in the early 90's you used to sell two copies of your software in Italy. One in the North and one in the South. Then there was was an EU crackdown, with prison sentences for directors of companies caught with pirated software and sales jumped dramatically. But this was under pressure from the EU who were in turn under pressure from the US.

The famous pirate software market (it was an actually indoor market hall) in Hong Kong has now largely been shut down I believe, but when I visited it in the 90's it was so blatant it should have been a national scandal.

Now we have piracy on the internet, and that particular toothpaste is unlikely to go back into the tube in my lifetime - if ever.

Your licence agreement is only going to affect those who respect it, and those with whom you can afford to enforce it.

Please don't think for one second, however, that I'm saying that's how it should be. But it's kind of how it really is.

You say it's called 'civilisation' - well that only works as long as all the parties behave in a civilised way.


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## Lee Blaske (Oct 15, 2017)

Fleer said:


> Civilization is all about gentle people gently discussing how things could improve for all.



So then it's not about people coming together and posting under aliases about how it's perfectly okay, permissible, and/or forgivable to steal from others, correct?


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 15, 2017)

I don't recall anyone saying it was perfectly okay, permissible and/or forgivable to steal from others. Who said that ?


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## Fleer (Oct 15, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> I don't recall anyone saying it was perfectly okay, permissible and/or forgivable to steal from others. Who said that ?


Didn’t read that either. And many of us are using their own name here.


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## Lee Blaske (Oct 15, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> Most software houses I have worked with have to take a practical approach - piracy is a fact of life and your wish that the 'marketplace should honour my terms' is, sadly, attempting to deal with the world as you would wish it to be rather than how it actually works.



My gosh, though, is it really time to throw in the towel and completely give up?

If you had been living in 793AD when the Vikings started swarming over Europe, laying waste to everything and taking everything they wished to take, would you have concluded that that's the way the world was going to work through eternity? Would you have given up and not produced or built anything because the Vikings would just take it? Would you have lived your life cowering in the shadows?

I don't quite understand how we've so quickly (compared to how new this technology is) come to the point where it's been decided that getting a handle on things is futile.


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## Fleer (Oct 15, 2017)

I believe we can get a handle on this, only not by simply copying old remedies. Theft is theft, but theft of software is different from theft of physical items, and we should reflect on how we can be more effective preventing both.


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## Lee Blaske (Oct 15, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> I don't recall anyone saying it was perfectly okay, permissible and/or forgivable to steal from others. Who said that ?



I was generalizing, and not singling you out. But if you go to the beginning and read through the responses, it seems to be what some are saying. For instance, Krayh wrote:

"Whats the big deal? 99% of the libraries can be downloaded for free, most of the people who use warez wouldnt bought the product in the first place, and use the libraries just for fun. So no loss in my opinion...."


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 15, 2017)

OK. You are a small software developer with a turnover of £ 2 million pounds a year. Net Profit is around 25%

You find someone pirating and selling your software in China, but you need IP address records (controlled by the state) to prove it beyond doubt.

You have no office in China, you don't speak the language. Your lawyers get put onto a law firm in China. They tell you that you are unlikely to get the person into court without the IP records, which you will have to apply to the government for. It will take around 3 months to get them.

The law firm estimate it will cost around $ 50,000 USD to get ready for court. The offender is 23, works in a factory during the day and owns a moped and rents an apartment. He earns about $ 400 USD a month.

What are you going to do ?

I tell you what I would do - I'd much rather put that money into marketing and selling my product to those willing and able to pay.

There is no victory as expensive as a Moral Victory.


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## JonSolo (Oct 15, 2017)

Lee Blaske said:


> So then it's not about people coming together and posting under aliases about how it's perfectly okay, permissible, and/or forgivable to steal from others, correct?


You are correct. Any excuse or argument for permissiveness in the form of theft is just not civilized.

On the other hand, helping devs to understand the real threat in the long run is appropriate. While I hate theft, there are changes I would love to see across the board in software, particularly audio, development:

1. Reasonable try before you buy on ALL software and libraries (say 15 days???)
2. Non-invasive copy protection (offline serials have always been awesome)
3. License transfers on ALL software and libraries, with a reasonable transfer fee (5% or $20 whichever is less)
4. Working GitHub style support and bug reporting to make rock solid projects

But, alas, we live in the real world. My list is much bigger. But with those things lacking, there is still no justifiable cause for theft.

For the record, I grew up, like most of us here, where, although pirates were the bad guys, they were glorified and viewed as the anti-hero heros. Even Robin Hood was glorified for what he did. So piracy is really a nice word. And I don't view software theft as piracy. Nothing good ever comes out of stealing.


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## Lee Blaske (Oct 15, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> OK. You are a small software developer with a turnover of £ 2 million pounds a year. Net Profit is around 25%
> 
> You find someone pirating and selling your software in China, but you need IP address records (controlled by the state) to prove it beyond doubt.
> 
> ...



But, I think that's assuming there are limits to the amount of damage that person in China is doing to your business. What if the activities of that individual eliminates 25%, 50%, 75%, 90% of your potential business (either directly, or by distributing copy-protection free versions of your software that gets shared by others)?

What happens if a climate emerges where it's practically impossible to do any business at all?


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 15, 2017)

You might wish to read this. I was actually very surprised when I read it, as I would love to see more enforcement myself. However, I was not at all surprised to see the EU attempted to suppress the report.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawo...ing-controversial-piracy-report/#248071927e1d

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/09/...ge-study-that-found-piracy-doesnt-harm-sales/

I do, for once, understand why the EU tried to suppress it, as I can easily see it being used by some as a kind of warped justification for piracy.


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## Quasar (Oct 15, 2017)

Lee Blaske said:


> I don't have a problem with companies not allowing resale of libraries, if that's their wish. Sample libraries aren't instruments like a saxophone. They're actual content. Blood and guts performances by real people. That's what you're buying. Even if you were allowed to "sell" the library software, the content you bought still remains on everything you used it on, and the pieces of music you made with them could still be earning you money. And if you used the libraries on live performances, the money you earned for those performances could still be in your bank account. The only way you could really relinquish your ownership of a sample library would be to have a time machine so you could go back and erase any traces that you've ever used, profited from, or advanced your career with that library.
> 
> The more we treat any form of software or recordings as being intangible (and steal-able, without any consequence), the more we ALL are standing on shaky ground as far as being able to make a living at this profession goes.
> 
> ...



I could buy a real saxophone, make a ton of excellent recordings with it (if I could play one, at least) and still collect royalties after I sell that, too...

I haven't seen ANY rationalizations for piracy on this thread. All I know is that I pay for what I use, but WILL NOT be harassed by fascist CP just because some people are pirates. However piracy may or may not equate to lost sales, it's a FACT that every dongle, PACE and now Native Access perversion designed to lock down and control the end user DOES equate to at least one lost sale: mine. I am most certainly not going to pay money for the "privilege" of being monitored, data-mined, forced to put my private workstation online, or otherwise have my privacy violated or my autonomy & stability harassed under the auspices of "stopping piracy", which quite obviously isn't happening anyway...

...My message to the devs is very simple: Focus on those of us who DO have scruples and are willing and able to pay for your stuff, and fuck the rest of it.


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## Lee Blaske (Oct 15, 2017)

Quasar said:


> I could buy a real saxophone, make a ton of excellent recordings with it (if I could play one, at least) and still collect royalties after I sell that, too...



Yes, but saxophones don't make music. People make music. (I think it's a variation of gun law arguments.)


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## Quasar (Oct 15, 2017)

Lee Blaske said:


> Yes, but saxophones don't make music. People make music. (I think it's a variation of gun law arguments.)


You'll have to take my Spitfire Loegria from my cold, dead fingers. LOL.


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## Lee Blaske (Oct 15, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> You might wish to read this. I was actually very surprised when I read it, as I would love to see more enforcement myself. However, I was not at all surprised to see the EU attempted to suppress the report.
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawo...ing-controversial-piracy-report/#248071927e1d
> 
> ...



Took a quick look at that report, and it's really complex. A person would really have to study that closely to understand their methodology. I am pretty much convinced, though, that a creative statistician can prove anything they set out to prove. 

BTW, did you see that the person who got access to that report was from the German Pirate Party? Pretty edgy group... 

https://newrepublic.com/article/137305/rise-fall-pirate-party


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## Lee Blaske (Oct 15, 2017)

Quasar said:


> You'll have to take my Spitfire Loegria from my cold, dead fingers. LOL.



Makes me think of that joke...

Q. What's the difference between Kenny G and an Uzi machine gun?

A. The Uzi has to stop from time to time to reload.


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 15, 2017)

Lee Blaske said:


> I am pretty much convinced, though, that a creative statistician can prove anything they set out to prove.



Ah, I see you have come across the EU before.  I'll bet you are quite right though.

I would so like it if that report were not true. The fact they they suppressed it rather than discredit it makes me think there may be more than a grain of truth in it, however. I think it was George Bernhard Shaw who said that, "There are lies, damn lies and government statistics." (OK - I edited it a bit).

One thing I am sure of though, is that the next time we are bitching about this new library costing 300 bucks, and this upgrade is just too expensive, lets just pause a little to remember the financial risks some of these developers are taking to bring these products out. Simply hundreds and hundreds of hours of work. Whether or not you like their libraries, they deserve a bit of respect. (Except the Spitfire boys and girls, who now have their own private tropical island and are building their new secret headquarters inside an extinct volcano with a monorail that goes around inside it. It's true, I read it on a fake news site....)



Quasar said:


> ...My message to the devs is very simple: Focus on those of us who DO have scruples and are willing and able to pay for your stuff, and fuck the rest of it.



You have most excellently compressed all my posts in this thread into a delightfully accurate single sentence. You, sir, win the award for being succinct for today.


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## Replicant (Oct 15, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> I loved that you put "piracy" in quotes.
> 
> So, the cost of entry into a business justifies theft? So the difficulty of installation justifies theft? We disagree.
> 
> Btw, the cost of composing music is, assuming one has been educated in one form or another, about $20- to purchase some score paper and a number of pencils.



Nice strawman. Nobody ever said it's just fine and dandy to steal things as you keep trying to say. The discussion is about how to mitigate piracy and improve the business model for paying customers and there are still a lot of paying customers.

I'm sorry, but when it's a simpler process for people to pirate software than it is for them to just purchase the thing, often with subpar customer service to boot, you can't tell me there _isn't_ a problem on business end.

I got in a fight on Facebook with a composer duo who creates these gothic-horror themed albums. They ranted endlessly about how "piracy is killing them" even though their amount of fans numbered fewer than 10k, they create incredibly niche music that is essentially production music but don't actively seek placements nor is their music available in any library, their music is of low production quality and every 20$ album consists of exactly 21 tracks based around a single, looping melody, and they weren't on Rdio or Spotify for the longest time, etc. but no — people downloading their music is why they can't pay their bills with their music, right?

Also, good luck being satisfied with your compositions, sharing them with people and musicians online, or getting anywhere career wise in 2017 with nothing more than pencils and paper.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 15, 2017)

Well, you have won the fight here on VIC. You win! Have a nice day.


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## Fleer (Oct 15, 2017)

Didn’t know this was about winning


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## NYC Composer (Oct 15, 2017)

I've stated my opinion, and I tried to do it clearly. Others with other points of view may have the last word on the subject. I'm over the endless forum debates.


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## Fleer (Oct 15, 2017)

I think there were some good arguments back and forth. It’s an interesting topic indeed.


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## LamaRose (Oct 15, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> I don't recall anyone saying it was perfectly okay, permissible and/or forgivable to steal from others. Who said that ?



Uncle Sam


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## novaburst (Oct 15, 2017)

JonSolo said:


> Theft is theft at any level.



Why some don't understand this is beyond belief.


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## novaburst (Oct 16, 2017)

Mystic said:


> No no! That doesn't hold any weight because that's a TANGIBLE ITEM. When you download something, nothing is lost!



So a thief just downloaded you bank details and sold it to another criminal gang who then got you security details to go on line and take all they want from your account.

Is this ok because it was not your tangible wallet, or your tangible money.

Are you saying it's ok because well actually it's not tangible, so its not stealing.

Good luck with that.


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## Mystic (Oct 16, 2017)

novaburst said:


> So a thief just downloaded you bank details and sold it to another criminal gang who then got you security details to go on line and take all they want from your account.
> 
> Is this ok because it was not your tangible wallet, or your tangible money.
> 
> ...


Someone didn't get the sarcasm in my post.


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## novaburst (Oct 16, 2017)

Mystic said:


> Someone didn't get the sarcasm in my post.



There are so many that appear to be for piracy or blame developers for piracy

Its very hard to spot sarcasm in the many post 4real


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## Fleer (Oct 16, 2017)

A thief is a thief is a thief


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