# Strings Layering Test (aiming at expression and cohesion)



## Lionel Schmitt (May 10, 2020)

Hi!

I'm rather excited about the strings template I'm working on and just curious if others are excited too or not! 




It's kind of a layering experiment since each section consists of 2-4 different libraries with no attention regarding realistic space at all. I feel like that such layering of smaller sections achieves greater cohesion, expression and better divisi writing.

The music itself is just something quick I did, maybe a start for a longer track. Beauty increasingly turning to pain and then resolving in beauty again.. I guess, I tried.


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## Dan (May 10, 2020)

This sounds really convincing!

May I ask what libraries are part of the mix?


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## RonV (May 10, 2020)

Sounds good. Which libraries, and did you use the built-in hall sound or add reverb?


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## José Herring (May 10, 2020)

The problem with this technique is that the strings then tend to sound too think and unnatural. It loses the airy ethereal quality of stings and starts to sound like a wall of gooey pads.

I've only really had success with maybe combining one large strings section with a much smaller one turned way down and then maybe a solo string turned down even further. That way the build up isn't as much. I try as much as possible keep the balance between the relative sizes.


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## Sears Poncho (May 10, 2020)

Sounds great. I wouldn't worry too much about "sounds real" or not. It sounds rich and excellent. Keep it.


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## Lionel Schmitt (May 11, 2020)

Dan said:


> This sounds really convincing!
> 
> May I ask what libraries are part of the mix?





RonV said:


> Sounds good. Which libraries, and did you use the built-in hall sound or add reverb?


Thanks! The libraries are (don't fall over haha)

Violins: CSS, CSSS, Adagio, Con Moto Violins B

Violas: Hollywood Strings and Adagio

Cellos: Secret stuff, CSS + CSSS and Con Moto

Basses: Con Moto and Secret stuff.

And I just put everything into a group track and added Valhalla Vintage Verb. Maybe not the best verb for orchestral stuff but I'm not big into reverbs.. any decently clean sounding verb is alright for me haha.



josejherring said:


> The problem with this technique is that the strings then tend to sound too think and unnatural. It loses the airy ethereal quality of stings and starts to sound like a wall of gooey pads.
> 
> I've only really had success with maybe combining one large strings section with a much smaller one turned way down and then maybe a solo string turned down even further. That way the build up isn't as much. I try as much as possible keep the balance between the relative sizes.


Ha.. to me it's exactly the other way around. I always layer strings and like the results more than when it's only one patch.
I'm not sure it sounds more 'natural' because I'm not concerned with that in an absolute manner, but just more expressive and cohesive and also more "maliable" in that I can make parts of the "section" behave differently, like making the 4 violins on a divisi patch peek out more for a section or even turning down the legato transition of one patch with CC1 or 11 and boosting the one from another and vice versa the next time in case of a repetition so the intervals don't repeat.

More control over the sonic color or each note by making some patches more prominent then others for specific notes and also just general mixing later on.

Since I'm using mostly smaller sections it's also convenient to just do some on-the-fly divisi splitting.

It also blurs the legato transitions a bit and makes then less noticeable as sampled intervals if the right types are layered IMO.

Aaand... it reduces recognizably of terribly overused libraries like CSS, which drives me crazy! 
So, for me it's the only way I do it in most cases from now since I don't share that troubling sonic impression.


Sears Poncho said:


> Sounds great. I wouldn't worry too much about "sounds real" or not. It sounds rich and excellent. Keep it.


Thanks! I'm definitely not concerned about that in an absolute fashion. I'm always more focused on making something sound good to my ears and hope it translates.
I think since samples are such inherently different beasts it's better anyway to focus more on expressiveness than realism since that's way more achievable and, to me at least, more satisfying.


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## José Herring (May 11, 2020)

I hear you. It's subjective for sure. All I'm saying is that it gets muddy and thick sounding and loses the "air" of the strings which makes it sound synthetic. It's kind of jarring. Makes the violins sound as thick as the basses so you kind of lose the sense of them being strings. 

A lot of that would be helped and you will still achieve the effect you want if you balanced out the ensembles more. Choose one library to be the lead then use the others to support that. Rather than just jamming them all in together on equal terms. That way when you apply different cc 1 and cc11 independently the smaller sections enhance the sound rather getting just a stacking effect. Right now sonically the libraries just aren't well blended.

It's what I've been doing lately and it works out well. 

So I feel you are on the right track it just needs to be finessed more or the mud takes over and you lose the nuance of what you're trying to do. It's a tricky balance.


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## Lionel Schmitt (May 11, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I hear you. It's subjective for sure. All I'm saying is that it gets muddy and thick sounding and loses the "air" of the strings which makes it sound synthetic. It's kind of jarring. Makes the violins sound as thick as the basses so you kind of lose the sense of them being strings.
> 
> A lot of that would be helped and you will still achieve the effect you want if you balanced out the ensembles more. Choose one library to be the lead then use the others to support that. Rather than just jamming them all in together on equal terms. That way when you apply different cc 1 and cc11 independently the smaller sections enhance the sound rather getting just a stacking effect. Right now sonically the libraries just aren't well blended.
> 
> ...


Funnily, I did exactly what you mentioned. I think none of the sections is bigger than 7 players and they are performed individually, sometimes for moments the sections even get so quiet that only these 5-7 players are present for 1 patch are present, just to become 10/14 a bit later again. 

Well, I cannot even remotely hear what you are describing.. actually in the line of experimentation I just stacked 3 different libraries at equal value in octaves (so 6 patches) just for Violins and love it!!


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## Stringtree (May 11, 2020)

A little Samuel Barber-ish. I like this a lot. 

The same idea struck me as I'm doing Daphnis and Chloe from the start. I don't have a "house library" that's all of a piece. Violas from here, ostinati from there, winds from over there. I think the diversity is yielding something that I like better than stuff I've made before, recorded in one space.

Good job! Me likey. Good swells.

Greg


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## Nils Neumann (May 11, 2020)

Sounds really nice! I'm currently setting up something similar, I wonder if you mix it for your template? Eqs etc? I'm currently contemplating if you could get rid of the "thickness" with carefully set Eqs.

AAANND what's the secret sauce in the cellos?:D


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## Will Blackburn (May 11, 2020)

Love the Cello, Basses. Secret Sauce.... reveal please.


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## Lionel Schmitt (May 11, 2020)

Nils Neumann said:


> Sounds really nice! I'm currently setting up something similar, I wonder if you mix it for your template? Eqs etc? I'm currently contemplating if you could get rid of the "thickness" with carefully set Eqs.
> 
> AAANND what's the secret sauce in the cellos?:D


Thanks! I did a massive amount if EQuing! I always do that. It's almost like an addiction. I sometimes fill all 24 slots in Cubase with EQ's!  So - yes!

I think the thickness is best tackled with careful programming.. trying to avoid keeping each patch at the same dynamic level. Although I'll also look to EQ it all some more. I posted this a few hours after setting it up from scratch so there is lots of room for improvement!

The secret sauce for the Cellos is: Con Moto and Secret Stuff! 


Will Blackburn said:


> Love the Cello, Basses. Secret Sauce.... reveal please.


As above - CSS + CSSS, Con Moto and Secret Stuff! 

Not allowed to say anything about it.


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## Ashermusic (May 11, 2020)

josejherring said:


> The problem with this technique is that the strings then tend to sound too think and unnatural. It loses the airy ethereal quality of stings and starts to sound like a wall of gooey pads.
> 
> he build up isn't as much. I try as much as possible keep the balance between the relative sizes.




I don't hear that in his example, Jose'.


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## axb312 (May 11, 2020)

DarkestShadow said:


> Thanks! I did a massive amount if EQuing! I always do that. It's almost like an addiction. I sometimes fill all 24 slots in Cubase with EQ's!  So - yes!
> 
> I think the thickness is best tackled with careful programming.. trying to avoid keeping each patch at the same dynamic level. Although I'll also look to EQ it all some more. I posted this a few hours after setting it up from scratch so there is lots of room for improvement!
> 
> ...



Century strings 2.0 or Nashville chamber strings?


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## paularthur (May 11, 2020)

Works well. Has that Romantic orchestra sound.


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## Lionel Schmitt (May 11, 2020)

axb312 said:


> Century strings 2.0 or Nashville chamber strings?


Well, they are not quite secret. Could be one of them... or something truly secret! :D


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## José Herring (May 11, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I don't hear that in his example, Jose'.


To each his or her own I say. I think it's most notable when the violins go into the lower register. But, that's just me. I've been listen to A LOT of real classical orchestral recordings lately so I've been tainted!


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## Lionel Schmitt (May 11, 2020)

@axb312 @Will Blackburn The secret stuff actually isn't that important. In the original example the cellos were 90% CSS and CSSS as I realized now.

Here are Cellos in a thicker form (CSS + CSSS and Con Moto) and Violins (Con Moto and Adagio) and a little bit of Violas (Hollywood and Adagio).

Super quick improv with almost no programming afterwards.


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## Bluemount Score (May 11, 2020)

Oh I really like that tone


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## Will Blackburn (May 11, 2020)

DarkestShadow said:


> @axb312 @Will Blackburn The secret stuff actually isn't that important. In the original example the cellos were 90% CSS and CSSS as I realized now.
> 
> Here are Cellos in a thicker form (CSS + CSSS and Con Moto) and Violins (Con Moto and Adagio) and a little bit of Violas (Hollywood and Adagio).
> 
> Super quick improv with almost no programming afterwards.




It's a nice tone for sure but stereo image sounds skewed to me. Are you cutting any mids or using a room placement plugin? I love this track from Atonement but always had an issue with the stereo image and it sounds almost identical to your mockup above. Not knocking what you are doing but trying to identify what it is mix wise that could be causing it. Maybe the Verb.




Contrast that to this which sounds like much better stereo image.


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## Lionel Schmitt (May 11, 2020)

Will Blackburn said:


> It's a nice tone for sure but stereo image sounds skewed to me. Are you cutting any mids or using a room placement plugin? I love this track from Atonement but always had an issue with the stereo image and it sounds almost identical to your mockup above. Not knocking what you are doing but trying to identify what it is mix wise that could be causing it. Maybe the Verb.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can't really check the examples since I'm stuck with laptop speakers, but I bet you're right about the stereo image since that's something I don't pay attention to much.. at least not at the current stage.
I'm not using any room placement and just a bit of Valhalla Vintage Verb. I'm cutting a ton of frequencies, certainly a lot of mids too! 
My mic position mixing is generally weird, so maybe it's that.


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## Ashermusic (May 11, 2020)

josejherring said:


> To each his or her own I say. I think it's most notable when the violins go into the lower register. But, that's just me. I've been listen to A LOT of real classical orchestral recordings lately so I've been tainted!



😆


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## Mukkenerd (Jun 15, 2020)

DarkestShadow said:


> Hi!
> 
> I'm rather excited about the strings template I'm working on and just curious if others are excited too or not!
> 
> ...



Love this short piece of composition. I don`t know exactly why but i immediately had to think of Hitchcock films^^


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## Lionel Schmitt (Jun 15, 2020)

Mukkenerd said:


> Love this short piece of composition. I don`t know exactly why but i immediately had to think of Hitchcock films^^


Thank you! I'm a Bernard Herrmann fan so I figure that might be it


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## ZentralmassivSound (Jun 16, 2020)

Sounds convincing to me. Actually to my ears the sound is not thin (as mentioned here) but to the contrary, has a nice physical body.


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