# New Thomas Bergersen Mockup!



## MR F (Feb 19, 2014)

Thomas posted this track on his facebook page today. It's all virtual instruments. (Just when I thought my mockups were getting any good <crying> )
http://www.thomasbergersen.com/Thomas_Bergersen-_-That%27s-A-Wrap.mp3 (http://www.thomasbergersen.com/Thomas_B ... A-Wrap.mp3)


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## eschroder (Feb 19, 2014)

I don't even know how that is possible... freaking ridiculous!!!


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## jcs88 (Feb 19, 2014)

In awe. Honestly both the sound and writing. There is a LOT going on in there and to think he went through each track with the detail that he goes through is a monumental task. Truly an inspiration in diligence and self discipline. The track evolves so drastically but flows so naturally.


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## Arbee (Feb 19, 2014)

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. The amount of skill and effort in this is immense. Once I reach the end of the piece however I can't help feeling somewhat exhausted and assaulted, rather than seduced (but that's the genre).

.


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## dryano (Feb 19, 2014)

The master of midi production has done it again.


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## AC986 (Feb 19, 2014)

Agreed. Skill and effort second to none.

Wouldn't want to sit through it again though. It becomes a noise after 2 minutes. Assault on my ears. Can't stand all that banging.


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## snattack (Feb 19, 2014)

Sounds fantastic, but "less is more" is not an issue to worry about here


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## germancomponist (Feb 19, 2014)

Way too much reverb for my taste, but otherwise very very well done!

Awesome!


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## Marius Masalar (Feb 19, 2014)

Exceptional. Thomas remains peerless.

It's certainly over-the-top, but not ham-fistedly so. Exhausting, but rewarding.


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## TGV (Feb 19, 2014)

adriancook @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> Agreed. Skill and effort second to none.
> 
> Wouldn't want to sit through it again though. It becomes a noise after 2 minutes. Assault on my ears. Can't stand all that banging.


I've got the same feeling. After 30s, I was exhausted. I'm going to listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrptYiV25JQ now, to clean out my ears. Perhaps tomorrow I'll give it another chance.


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## synergy543 (Feb 19, 2014)

Arbee @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> Thanks for bringing this to our attention. The amount of skill and effort in this is immense. Once I reach the end of the piece however I can't help feeling somewhat exhausted and assaulted, rather than seduced (but that's the genre)..


Agreed, immense skill and effort. Though my question to TJ is:

How do you go about mixing such a piece and still keep your hearing?


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## Darthmorphling (Feb 19, 2014)

The whole piece is phenomenal! I guess my numerous years listening to Slayer has conditioned my ears to be accepting of such in your face production.


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## JaredJn (Feb 19, 2014)

...Sheesh!! I wonder all the sound libraries he used. I feel like my pieces will NEVER come out like this. 

I do have to agree with everyone else though. This is very heavy on the ears and in your face. A little too much reverb for my taste as well, but obviously written fantastically!


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## dcoscina (Feb 19, 2014)

John Powell on steroids. Has a lot of staples of Powell's style. Personally I like Bergerson when he channeled Williams more.


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## lucianogiacomozzi (Feb 19, 2014)

Incase anyone is wondering, here's what the post said:

"Lots of people ask me what software I use to compose. Well, the reality is that I am lucky enough to have most of my music recorded live, but for the writing process I have created many complete virtual orchestras. This piece was done 100% using my custom sounds and took about 10 days to complete"

And some notable comments by him in response:

"Thanks guys! Sometimes my music is so energetic, there's no way an orchestra would be able to play it without killing themselves, so I leave it to the samples to do the leg work While I did help produce some of the East West libraries, I do not use them in my music."

"I use Kontakt but the sounds are all custom created by myself. I have recorded my own sample libraries all over the world, including USA, England, Czech, Bratislava and Bulgaria."

"I use all the usual reverb plugins from the built in cubase ones to more advanced ones. Spaces is great. Spencer, I sometimes sketch it out using a piano track, or hum it in (yes, this still works well, especially for the most complex tonal stuff where your fingers may not necessarily fall in the right place on the first take). Michael, I'm on a dual Xeon E2600 Windows 7 with 128gb ram and a ton of SSD drives. RME Firefaces and MADI audio interfaces. Although I have some VEPro slaves, I can do almost everything on one computer these days."

Just in case anyone is interested and doesn't fancy trawling through the comments.


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## AC986 (Feb 19, 2014)

dcoscina @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> John Powell on steroids. Has a lot of staples of Powell's style. Personally I like Bergerson when he channeled Williams more.



Agreed. And also occasionally Jerry Goldsmith would do this as in The Mummy. But a lot more subtly. With less banging. :lol:


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## reddognoyz (Feb 19, 2014)

I think it's amazing and I can hear a lot of flourish in the writing that I wouldn't want to attempt, or couldn't attempt because I'm not that good a midi orchestrator. The "mock up" doth hide well beneath the blanket of hall ambiance, serves the track well both in epicness and "cloak of secrecy" (shhh it's a mockup) I don't think too many civilians would be able to tell though. It is huge!!!


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## rpaillot (Feb 19, 2014)

Please let him do a Dreamworks movie or a blockbuster. Instead of daft punk or M83 :/


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## dcoscina (Feb 19, 2014)

Tron was fucking great.


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## dcoscina (Feb 19, 2014)

adriancook @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> dcoscina @ Wed Feb 19 said:
> 
> 
> > John Powell on steroids. Has a lot of staples of Powell's style. Personally I like Bergerson when he channeled Williams more.
> ...



I fast forwarded after the first 20 seconds. I am normally a fan of Bergerson's mock ups because he displayed a lot of subtlety and nuances. This is more RC style which I generally don't like too much.


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## Jetzer (Feb 19, 2014)

Amazing mockup. Although I do admire the skill (!), this composition apart from a few moments was a bit to much for my taste. But I love some of his other works. 

Good compositional skills + good orchestration skills + good technology/mixing/midi skills leads to this. Love it.


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## MR F (Feb 19, 2014)

Sorry guys but I actually love all that banging


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## Vin (Feb 19, 2014)

rpaillot @ 19/2/2014 said:


> Please let him do a Dreamworks movie or a blockbuster. Instead of daft punk or M83 :/



Well, I really liked Oblivion OST.


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## rpaillot (Feb 19, 2014)

Vin @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> rpaillot @ 19/2/2014 said:
> 
> 
> > Please let him do a Dreamworks movie or a blockbuster. Instead of daft punk or M83 :/
> ...



Braaaaaaaammms , Braaaaaaams.
Di-Da-Di-Da-Di-Da ( minor third strings ostinato )


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## Vin (Feb 19, 2014)

rpaillot @ 19/2/2014 said:


> Vin @ Wed Feb 19 said:
> 
> 
> > rpaillot @ 19/2/2014 said:
> ...



TBH, I was more impressed with the electronic part of the score (done by Anthony Gonzalez of M83) than with the orchestral segment which wasn't anything special.

Back on topic: Amazing music from Mr. Bergersen as usual.


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## Rob (Feb 19, 2014)

Exceptionally well done! _-)


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## aaronnt1 (Feb 19, 2014)

Woah! Was this written for something or along to something or did Thomas just let the music lead the way? It was like a fantastic medley of John Powell, Zimmer, Williams and Debney circa Cutthroat Island. Astonishing really and all in just 10 days from start to finish or just the midi part? Would have taken me more like 3 to 4 months!!!


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## Saxer (Feb 19, 2014)

phew... i'm tuckered out just by listening! i could not work on such a track for ten days... i would just drown in adreanline. 
kudos to the top athlete of orchestrating! and the sound is top-notch!


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## apessino (Feb 19, 2014)

Unbelievable work... and in 10 days?!?! A minute a day of that thick stuff - I can't even imagine. :shock:


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## Andrew Christie (Feb 19, 2014)

I love it when something like this comes out. Makes me roll my sleeves up and reminds me I got work to do  

The benchmark for the modern day composer right here guys! TJB is the man.


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## IFM (Feb 19, 2014)

He certainly loves his energetic pieces!


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## danielcartisano (Feb 19, 2014)

It's like the speed metal of orchestra...

Insane work Thomas. Your technique and skill to pull off the ultimate in-your-face orchestra track is unparalleled.

Would I listen to it again though? Probably not, it became white noise after a few minutes, but that's just me - I can still appreciate the mock up though. Fantastic sounding samples too.


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## Mike Marino (Feb 19, 2014)

Great stuff, Thomas!


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## emid (Feb 19, 2014)

I have never heard such a great thing done with midi. So much inspiration. Speechless!


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## ghostnote (Feb 20, 2014)

Love the part at 3:00 onwards... 10 days? Mother of God.


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## Graham Keitch (Feb 20, 2014)

To keep things in perspective, these are 'custom' samples and for all we know could be made up of phrases, runs or whatever. I'm not suggesting they are - and even if they were, it wouldn't detract from the excellence of the mock-up. It would be interesting to learn more about the tools the pros are using although I wouldn't expect them to give any secrets away.


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## milesito (Feb 20, 2014)

I'm feeling a bit sick listening to this track…it's incredible! 10 days to make this track…10 million hours or more to ever become this good… Michael Chrostek said it best " Mother of God "...


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## TGV (Feb 20, 2014)

I've listened to it, being fully awake, and it's impressive. I do think the sound contributes greatly to the impressiveness. The composition is rather free (rhapsodic, if you like), and I think that certainly the first part is stylistically in heavy metal/prog rock territory.

My favorite part is the ending. Around 7:40, the drums stop banging, and then at 8:30, the happy part starts. I felt these parts were best developed and orchestrated. They are certainly uplifting!


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## AC986 (Feb 20, 2014)

The drums stop banging? Thank God for that. :lol:


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## handz (Feb 20, 2014)

dcoscina @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> John Powell on steroids. Has a lot of staples of Powell's style. Personally I like Bergerson when he channeled Williams more.



absolutely, me too. This is too "quantized" and repetitive percussion rhythm driven - 10 minutes is a long time. Of course sounds wodnerful as usually.


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## dcoscina (Feb 20, 2014)

I'm finding as I get older that it's more the musical content I react to than the sonic quality of the piece. I'd take a musically brilliant piece with so-so samples over a piece with amazing sample programming but that isn't as engaging musically. I know that's changed because I was always about sonic awesomeness. 

Thomas has solid music chops- that's not debatable, and whether people like or dislike this piece is mostly a matter of personal preference. I'm a bit disappointed that he's moved away from writing in a more traditional style sans power anthems and heavy orchestration.

I chuckled a little bit at the Mahler quote because even though he was capable of bombast, his music quite often had a quiet, ethereal quality to it with a lot of moments where solo instruments or unusual groupings of instruments were showcased. As big as Das Lied can get, there are more occasions where there's an openness to the music. Thomas' piece, for me, is quite disperate from Mahler.


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## jamwerks (Feb 20, 2014)

Great writing. A bit too much presence of the perc loops though, and there needs to be some moments where that breaks up and goes out.

It is to note that he doesn't use any Play stuff (not even SD), strange for a developer...


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## dcoscina (Feb 20, 2014)

I thought Bergerson's HS strings demo was amazing. Got me to buy that library pretty quickly. His choral piece for EWQL choirs is still my favourite though.


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## vicontrolu (Feb 20, 2014)

Unbelievable. Probably my favourite composer for this kinda thing.

Cant wait or "Sun" to be released. Any possible date, btw?


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## Daniel James (Feb 20, 2014)

God dam that was incredible. My favorite take away from that whole piece was how good fast brass stacs sound in action music 

Stunning composition and flawless midi work. Congrats on an amazing piece Thomas!

-DJ


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## dgburns (Feb 20, 2014)

MR F @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> Thomas posted this track on his facebook page today. It's all virtual instruments. (Just when I thought my mockups were getting any good <crying> )
> http://www.thomasbergersen.com/Thomas_Bergersen-_-That%27s-A-Wrap.mp3 (http://www.thomasbergersen.com/Thomas_B ... A-Wrap.mp3)



ok,so this reminds me of Silvestri when he did Van Helsing.

sounds like alot of the POTC movies.he worked on those yes?


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## Goran (Feb 20, 2014)

for this particular genre, first class performance & sound. congratulations!


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## mmendez (Feb 20, 2014)

Wow. Thomas' work is one of the reasons why I finally got into music and VIs. Flawless MIDI programming and damn cool music to go with it. Love the more quiet parts of this.

Congrats on another awesome track!

Miguel


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## BoulderBrow (Feb 20, 2014)

Wow, some lovely writing! This track should come with a height restriction!


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## Lawson. (Feb 20, 2014)

That was one of the best pieces I've ever heard in my life. >8o Words fail me. :shock:

And a machine with 128 GBs of RAM? Wowwwwwwwwwwwwww. :shock:


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## woodsdenis (Feb 20, 2014)

Jaw and floor in close contact, brilliant.


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## Tatu (Feb 20, 2014)

Stunning work, Thomas!

And nice gesture towards your fans to share such work free of charge. Nice.


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## Ed (Feb 20, 2014)

MR F @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> Thomas posted this track on his facebook page today. It's all virtual instruments. (Just when I thought my mockups were getting any good <crying> )
> http://www.thomasbergersen.com/Thomas_Bergersen-_-That%27s-A-Wrap.mp3 (http://www.thomasbergersen.com/Thomas_B ... A-Wrap.mp3)



No no this can't be, there was someone not so long ago telling us that Thomas Bergersen doesn't know how to compose because he writes trailer music. /s

Seriously though, I think a lot of new guys would be amazed if they heard what TJ had been doing even 10 years ago.


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## Ed (Feb 20, 2014)

Graham Keitch @ Thu Feb 20 said:


> To keep things in perspective, these are 'custom' samples and for all we know could be made up of phrases, runs or whatever. I'm not suggesting they are - and even if they were, it wouldn't detract from the excellence of the mock-up. It would be interesting to learn more about the tools the pros are using although I wouldn't expect them to give any secrets away.



There's probably a run or two, but TJ has been ruining our poor asses with stuff like this for years. Don't assume its anything more than a run or two.


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## MR F (Feb 20, 2014)

Ed @ Thu Feb 20 said:


> MR F @ Wed Feb 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Thomas posted this track on his facebook page today. It's all virtual instruments. (Just when I thought my mockups were getting any good <crying> )
> ...




I believe it was in 2006 when he had composed track so good that some guy ate his own hand.


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## IFM (Feb 20, 2014)

I see he uses Cubase 5 and Kontakt with all custom samples. That machine with 128g of ram...that's pretty massive.


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## José Herring (Feb 20, 2014)

MR F @ Thu Feb 20 said:


> Ed @ Thu Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> > MR F @ Wed Feb 19 said:
> ...



Ah yes, Mojo Madness. Good times....good times.


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## Jetzer (Feb 20, 2014)

Didn't know he had a FB page, some gold on there:

"Do you follow the herd or is your mind free? Think about it. Do you identify yourself through music? Do you hide behind it or do you actually choose to be free and embrace everything without prejudice? Life is so rich and full of beauty, and art is truly limitless, so why limit ourselves to the sheep mentality in our appreciation of it? Embrace without prejudice and cultivate that which resonates within you, not what resonates with others."


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## Andrew Christie (Feb 20, 2014)

Ed @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> No no this can't be, there was someone not so long ago telling us that Thomas Bergersen doesn't know how to compose because he writes trailer music.



Whoever said that needs to be slapped!


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## R. Soul (Feb 20, 2014)

I think my ears are bleeding. That was intense, but brilliantly done. As usual.


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## Andrew Christie (Feb 20, 2014)

dcoscina @ Thu Feb 20 said:


> This is more RC style which I generally don't like too much.



Completely disagree!


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## handz (Feb 20, 2014)

dcoscina @ Thu Feb 20 said:


> I thought Bergerson's HS strings demo was amazing. Got me to buy that library pretty quickly. His choral piece for EWQL choirs is still my favourite though.



Yeah, the HS demo was amazing!


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## dpasdernick (Feb 20, 2014)

Hey, Hey, Hey... Thomas was my hero way before he was your hero so back off... 

Thomas, how you are not an A-list composer is beyond me. You are truly a musical genius and an inspiration. 

Sincerely,

Darren

PS Seriously though, those Pirates sound mad as hell.


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## Jordan Gagne (Feb 20, 2014)

The gap between Thomas's brass and what is currently available on the sample market is crazy. The brass alone instantly puts this mockup streets ahead of what the average mockup sounds like, because it's not a sound us plebs can reproduce  -- unless we have a live orchestra.

Hoping Berlin Brass can help alleviate this.


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## KingIdiot (Feb 20, 2014)

Ed @ Thu Feb 20 said:


> Graham Keitch @ Thu Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> > To keep things in perspective, these are 'custom' samples and for all we know could be made up of phrases, runs or whatever. I'm not suggesting they are - and even if they were, it wouldn't detract from the excellence of the mock-up. It would be interesting to learn more about the tools the pros are using although I wouldn't expect them to give any secrets away.
> ...



Don't assume it's a run sample in there either. o-[][]-o


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## Blackster (Feb 21, 2014)

Sounds really great!!

I guess the biggest advantage of creating own sounds (including mapping, programming, dynamic curves, etc. ...) is that they fit your personal workflow perfectly. They become the most playable and most intuitive instruments for you. 

Though I believe that such a high quality track can also be produced with commercial libraries. Since the writing and orchestration is absolutely stunning it won't sound bad with commercial libraries. Of course, it will be different but that doesn't mean that it will be worse than this ... 

It is easy to let any sample library sound bad if you don't know how to use it properly (speaking mostly of orchestral sample libraries). But TJ has proven so many times that he is a master of writing and orchestration. As Ed said before, the work he did years ago is still better than most of the orchestral mockups out there today. 

And if his custom stuff were available to all of us, most of the user tracks would sound worse anyway. Because what I hear in his tracks is passion, a little bit of madness and so much damn hard work, and even more work! ... o/~


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## Blackster (Feb 21, 2014)

And btw, if TJ decides to publish a midi orchestration course I predict that this thing will be very successful and the market is totally ready for that


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## Danny_Owen (Feb 21, 2014)

dpasdernick @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> Thomas, how you are not an A-list composer is beyond me. You are truly a musical genius and an inspiration.



He is... for trailers . I believe from what I've read before is that not working in Films is out of choice, it's a different game.

Fantastic work Thomas - World Class.


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## jamwerks (Feb 21, 2014)

Blackster @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> I guess the biggest advantage of creating own sounds (including mapping, programming, dynamic curves, etc. ...) is that they fit your personal workflow perfectly. They become the most playable and most intuitive instruments for you.


I doubt that these samples are just his (just a guessing here). Producing an entire orchestra with tons of arts, would be in the hundreds of thousands of $. Probably done between a handful of friends....


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## IFM (Feb 21, 2014)

He stated in his FB posts that this is done entirely with custom samples he's recorded all over the world.


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## Atom Hub (Feb 21, 2014)

Darthmorphling @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> The whole piece is phenomenal! I guess my numerous years listening to Slayer has conditioned my ears to be accepting of such in your face production.



=o :D 

its a great track indeed !


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## Graham Keitch (Feb 21, 2014)

Dragonwind @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> He stated in his FB posts that this is done entirely with custom samples he's recorded all over the world.



Which is why I questioned whether some of this might be recorded phrases as opposed to the note by note stuff most of us use. To record a complete string or brass library is a massive undertaking - but I could imagine it being a lot easier to record 'bits of performances' while travelling around and working with various orchestras. As I said before, I'm not suggesting this is the case - but it would be interesting to learn a bit more about these custom / home built libraries. It's highly possible these are the sort of libraries we're used to, put together by T himself or a group of select individuals rather like the original Spitfire series. Just curious and trying to keep a sense of perspective.


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## MR F (Feb 21, 2014)

Graham Keitch @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> Dragonwind @ Fri Feb 21 said:
> 
> 
> > He stated in his FB posts that this is done entirely with custom samples he's recorded all over the world.
> ...



I understand that but Ed has a point. I still have some old TJ's mockups on my hard drive (for example ones that he made for projectsam horns and vsl) and they all sound freakin amazing. Now, I've heard some stories about Roland strings but I've never heard this one (although I would love to). With that in perspective I wouldn't be suprised if there were no recorded phrases here.


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## jamwerks (Feb 21, 2014)

Dragonwind @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> He stated in his FB posts that this is done entirely with custom samples he's recorded all over the world.


Custom sample doesn't mean "just his". I understand that (some) of Hans's stuff is shared among colleges. Personally, I doubt there are any phrases in there. Top level compos don't need 'em imo.


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## eric aron (Feb 21, 2014)

i feel sad to hear such great skills and talent used for this kind demo.. whats the use and the meaning behind this challenge? how can i listen to this more than a few seconds? continuous sound pressure, no breathe, accumulation of orchestral clichés, huge reverb bath, where is the music? where is the Thomas from the first tracks?


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## jamwerks (Feb 21, 2014)

My comments (and like many others I'm sure) are for the skill on the craftsman (as opposed to the final product).


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## Ed (Feb 21, 2014)

Graham Keitch @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> - but I could imagine it being a lot easier to record 'bits of performances'.



That makes it sound like you are saying its phrases, this was an idea all the way back over 10 years ago. I just missed the drama at NS before I arrived, but people were insisting his music must be live and that it was a lie. This was back in the days of Ultimate Strings/Roland libraries. People don't realise that TJ's the original gangsta mofo.


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## Ian Dorsch (Feb 21, 2014)

Man. This is some truly insane stuff. It's one of those pieces that walks the fine line between inspiration and just making me want to throw my DAW in a dumpster. :D


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## Ed (Feb 21, 2014)

Thomas_J @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> It was just an exercise to see how long I could keep it going, really.



Insane. 



> The next couple of pieces that came out of my fingers easily rival "4:33"



Show Show.


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## aaronnt1 (Feb 21, 2014)

jamwerks @ Fri 21 Feb said:


> My comments (and like many others I'm sure) are for the skill on the craftsman (as opposed to the final product).



Personally I enjoyed every second of it, I love these types of tracks, musically and appreciatively. I suppose I did start to get a little fatigued by the relentless fff percussion and perhaps it could have used one or two more well placed softer moments but besides that I thought it was great from start to finish and flowed well over 9 minutes, always moving forward. 

Now if Thomas just stuck one of Hans Zimmer's stems in there -- oh, and cut around 7 minutes off - I think he'd win the Bleeding Fingers contest no sweat! Not that he needs to! :mrgreen:


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## AC986 (Feb 21, 2014)

Thomas_J @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> Film music and directors: one word: prison. To me and in my somewhat limited experience with films it simply is not enjoyable. It is work for hire, schedules, pressure, egos, very little creative freedom and in the end if you're lucky you'll hear a little bit of your work underneath the sound effects and dialog. Most likely everything is forgotten come Tuesday. Then there's the issue I have with movies. I just get bored and restless watching them.



Doesn't' matter Thomas. You should still go for it while you can. It is boring scrolling through a film and it can make you restless, but you should try and overcome that somehow.


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## dcoscina (Feb 21, 2014)

Thomas_J @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> Haha this again! First of all I am flattered, you are too kind! You really are  To answer a few questions that keep popping up:
> 
> Film music and directors: one word: prison. To me and in my somewhat limited experience with films it simply is not enjoyable. It is work for hire, schedules, pressure, egos, very little creative freedom and in the end if you're lucky you'll hear a little bit of your work underneath the sound effects and dialog. Most likely everything is forgotten come Tuesday.



I think this is a very astute observation. I don't have the same level of experience as you do Thomas but from the small work I did in the '90s on films, I became very disenchanted with the system- to many cooks in the kitchen and most of them had little to no respect for the composer. To them there was no distinction between someone who worked with real musicians, studied music and film history/function to director's friend with an M1 who could bring up a Combi patch and press middle C forever. It was a system I didn't want to whore myself out to (my own personal perspective- not saying anyone who does work in film is one- just to make that clear). 

A while ago the system did value the talent and skills that composers like Goldsmith, North, Tiomkin, Herrmann, Korngold, etc etc brought to the table. The directors valued their contributions and allowed them a voice in the collaborative process. now it's more dictatorial and micromanaged since technology allows producers more control over what the composer is doing. Between this and focus group trends where a bunch of tone deaf teens can make producers tell a director to shitcan a score that a composer worked a year on (Troy) in favor of a more trendy score (sort of) giving the replacement composer a fraction of the time (as if that will yield a better score). Then there's the pressure on composers to please their employers so even really talented and skilled guys are having to placate their bosses because there ARE a ton of less talented but eager to please "yes" men waiting in the wings...

Thomas, it's commendable that you have carved out a successful and satisfying career for yourself doing what you enjoy doing. That's the trick and one that's difficult to achieve so my hat's off to you sir.


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## IFM (Feb 21, 2014)

Thank you Thomas!


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## jamwerks (Feb 21, 2014)

Thomas_J @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> ...To answer a few questions that keep popping up:


Nice read, thanks for sharing!


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## NYC Composer (Feb 21, 2014)

It's so totally fcking true. Deadlines ,tension, everyone having their fingers in your creative pie. Unless you 're Bernie H and have final cut (a real anomaly in work for hire) you serve so many masters.

After my gig of writing for commercials withered away in NYC (which was all of that times ten) a very successful friend who wrote for tv told me I should move to LA, and intimated that he could help me. To me, it looked like the same gig with more status. I passed.

I had a minor shot to get the piano playing gig on Saturday Night Live when Cheryl Hardwick retired. I would have taken it had I got it, but it wasn't something that made my heart soar. Live tv?? I got to hang out with the cast and music crew for two days- definitely a fire drill every week.

I'm sure its somewhat different when you're at the top and you are truly partnering with directors who trust you, but it's probably a long road. My idea of freedom (and it's yet to be seen if I ever achieve it) is to write the music I like to write, on my own, then find outlets for it and make a living doing just that. That's my get out of jail free card, and that's the goal I doggedly work at weekly.

Good luck in setting your own path, Thomas. Your talent is unquestionable as is your work ethic, and I'm sure you'll make it work.


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## dcoscina (Feb 21, 2014)

NYC composer
=o


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## Ian Dorsch (Feb 21, 2014)

Thomas_J @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> I've always been a fan of metal music and since I can't play guitar worth [email protected]%# I fake it with an orchestra  Some people hate it, some people like it. To me it's enjoyable to push boundaries and provoke. The beauty of music is that no one can tell you what to do. You just do it. It's my anarchistic inclinations, lived out through a passive aggressive medium.



I love this. Good for you, man. _-)


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## handz (Feb 21, 2014)

Always nice that TJ finds time to write here. Thanx for sharing your experience!

I can only imagine how stressing and sometimes very frustrating must working for films, crazy. But then - when you watch those great ppl from the past in documentaries, Silvestri, Williams, Elfman etc they really seems like they were enjoying the whole process. But yeah, sadly times are speeding up and freedom composers have probably is smaller and smaller.


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## KingIdiot (Feb 21, 2014)

it's nice to be able to open my mouth publicly about this private library. 

and this cue, which I've been listening to for way longer than he posted. CAn you believe this guy did all this with a messed up wrist? 

I hate this guy. :mrgreen: =o


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## Ed (Feb 21, 2014)

Hey King, whats it like having all these private libs?


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## givemenoughrope (Feb 21, 2014)

Ian Dorsch @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> Thomas_J @ Fri Feb 21 said:
> 
> 
> > I've always been a fan of metal music and since I can't play guitar worth [email protected]%# I fake it with an orchestra  Some people hate it, some people like it. To me it's enjoyable to push boundaries and provoke. The beauty of music is that no one can tell you what to do. You just do it. It's my anarchistic inclinations, lived out through a passive aggressive medium.
> ...



You should do it with metal guitar AND orchestra. I transitioned from metal to orchestral when I had this track on a mix just before the opening of BH's NXNW. Both are heavy metal to me. I hear the "top" layer the same way. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35FzKI0rzBw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4bCWZjkrdw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MarWv25GOyw


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## KingIdiot (Feb 21, 2014)

Ed @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> Hey King, whats it like having all these private libs?




Right now...pretty useless since I have no time to write with both parents not doing well right now, but in the time I do have, i load some of this one onto the lappy just to play and noodle with a nanokey or virtual keyboard... And its the most inspiring thing to play since when i played vsl legato for the first time.

No joke.

Private libs are the way to go, if you want something you love but will work to make right. You don't have to spend as much as Thomas to get something good, just time and know how. But this sucker... There is a hell of a lot of know how behind it, and teh budget to support it. It's got some real magic. If there's only one reason I start writing orchestral music again, its not letting this stuff everyone's letting me work on lately go to waste.

so I'm on the Thomas fan bandwagon as well. Some of the things we've been on the same page when it comes to libraries for years. It was absolutely validating to work on this one with him because of some of our sensibilities when it comes to the design of some of this stuff, but also scary as shit, cuz dude got even smarter... I just got crazier.


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## dpasdernick (Feb 21, 2014)

KingIdiot @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> it's nice to be able to open my mouth publicly about this private library.
> 
> and this cue, which I've been listening to for way longer than he posted. CAn you believe this guy did all this with a messed up wrist?
> 
> I hate this guy. :mrgreen: =o



Hey wait... I just messed up my wrist too... Slipped on some ice in Dallas (WTF?) and to top it off I'm a transplanted Canadian (oh the shame) Does this mean I'll be throwing down mad riffs like Thomas soon? Seriously I don't know how you hold a piece of music like that in your head. I try but the voices take up too much room.

Thomas, thank you for your insight and beautiful music. I love the sort of "follow your heart" no matter what and if you fail (not you obviously)... screw it and just keep going.


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## KingIdiot (Feb 21, 2014)

givemenoughrope @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> Ian Dorsch @ Fri Feb 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Thomas_J @ Fri Feb 21 said:
> ...



please don't encourage him to get into playing guitar. I like being better than him at at least one thing musically. Madman editing ideas for musical samples doesn't count.


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## aaronnt1 (Feb 21, 2014)

I'd be very interested to know more about the specs of this library Thomas has, i.e how many GB's it is, round robins, dynamic layers...?


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## Simon Ravn (Feb 22, 2014)

Thomas, great composition and MIDI work as always. I love the way you look at music, and I envy the courage to seek out your own journey rather than following an already existing path. I can only nod at your view on working on films - it is (often at least) not as much fun as it looks/sounds like. Some directors/producers let you do your thing and trust your instincts and are openminded regarding the music. But more often I find myself put in a pretty confined room - or actually a myriad of confined rooms, because the director/producer have no clear about idea what they want the music to do - where there is very little elbow room. To quote a producer I worked/work for: "Simon, this is not you doing what you think is right. I have hired you to do what I want". Well that is one way to look at it - the way I approach a picture is always "What is the best for this movie, what can possibly make it a better movie" - often however, you never even get to that talk.

So... in this crazy business, to find your own way to have fun AND make a living writing music must be a great solution!

Regarding the samples... well, I can only imagine what a huge undertaking it must have been to record, edit and program a full orchestra with legato etc. - and this just by you and Ashif - amazing! And this while writing music at the same time. Crazy!

All the best from here with whatever you do in your career - it looks like you're having a blast 8)


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 22, 2014)

I admire Thomas for his skills and musical intelligence and clearly he has made a good decision.... for Thomas.

Personally, I never tire of the challenge of making music work with picture, and since I love movies and TV and have relatively little ego, all that comes with it I can deal with.

Given a choice between the career of Thomas J. and another Thomas, namely Newman, I would opt for the latter 

But all the best, T.J. and to thine own self be true.


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## KingIdiot (Feb 22, 2014)

(paid for the friends of TJ foundation. Reply may cause throwing up in your mouth a little)

I want to be clear here;

Thomas could likely have done this library all on his own. It kind of blew my mind how much he was doing, and more so, how quickly. He's incredibly fast. I'm incredibly detailed, analytical, and overcritical. So I worked on things that were more "impossible" to do. Things that, quite frankly, no one else has done.

So while, yeah it's awesome that it was just two people working on something so gigantic. If Thomas didn't have a bunch of other things like, music to write, concerts to play, and a life to live. It would have been done on his own. Maybe slightly different, but no less amazing sounding.

As for specs. I don't think that's the important part. It's more about what was captured at the raw level, and then how it was put together. The most important part, like any private lib, is it's built to the creator's ideal. Around what they need, and how they work. It's focused around making music, and not cool new feature sets, or arbitrary numbers of dynamics/rr/gb, that competition has set, or that you have to set out to do because the market expects it. It's focused on being inspiring to sit and play, and to work well at that. Not glossy new feature sets, or endless options in a single patch or endless patch lists. It's how it works with most private libs. You get what you need, and focus on making it work with what you got.

It's why I wish more people would try to tackle it. You learn a lot about what you need, form buying a couple of commercial libs, and you fill in the gaps brainstorming with like minded people and building it yourself.

That's not to say it doesn't have some amazing features. Thomas understands scripting very well. He built polyphonic scripting in it, mostly, I think, because he wanted to prove to himself he could. That was the funnest part about working on this thing. We're both idea guys, but we got to push each other into making it better, by constantly chatting with each other through it, while working on it. It was a lot like being in a band writing songs, only building a sample library.

As for music making. When I was composing game scores. I was having a serious blast. There's a lot to learn on the gig, and places you can push yourself to try to find the right music that the producer/developer wants. It's a bit like puzzle solving. I enjoyed that aspect, and there's a validation when you get it right.

It's a bit vapid though. When I took an opportunity to work on records again it was when the industry was eating itself up. Terrible business move, but neat for my history and life. It was the initial start to really pull away and get back into writing songs and singing/performing for myself. There is a whole different place this all comes from for me, and there's a level of commitment in time that has to be put into that I forgot about. As well as time for experience building.

It can't be half assed to have that honesty in it. I hear people write and perform songs that are empty, and it's something I don't understand how to do anymore. I can't get behind singing/performing something I'm not lost in. There's a level of integrity to creating music that you want, and is from your own heart, and a feeling in knowing you're doing that, that can't be duplicated. It's why I love performing solo with an acoustic guitar. It's a different kind of magic.

Sure it's great to learn a cover and work on chops, or work on different style of music for fun. Sometimes it's just a release, and sometimes it's all exercises. Still, those things you're passionate about, those shine in a different way. They come out differently, and I think anyone who truly loves music can hear that. So when we hear Thomas having a blast, trying things out like in this cue, there's a lot of big smiles and probably some laughter at the absurdity of how giant it is. You can definitely hear the experimentation for experimentation's sake in it. Then when he's delving into more personally inspired stuff like on some of what's on Illusions, there's much more personal musical journey and story to listen to. They have different things to say. I think we all have something personal to say in music, and if we can build up the chops and tools to get it out there, then why not? I think it's amazing that TJ has found a way to make it profitable in an industry that is eating itself alive, but anyone who was hear when all this started will say that it couldn't be happening to a nicer and more talented guy out there. Something would be seriously wrong with the universe on a sure bet of musical talent like that not making it.


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## Stephen Rees (Feb 22, 2014)

Dear King,

If the messages you want to convey in your music are as sincere and touchingly articulated as your posts here I'd like to think that you will find success in your own way too, and I wish you the very best of success with it.

Stephen


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## AC986 (Feb 22, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Feb 22 said:


> I admire Thomas for his skills and musical intelligence and clearly he has made a good decision.... for Thomas.
> 
> Personally, I never tire of the challenge of making music work with picture, and since I love movies and TV and have relatively little ego, all that comes with it I can deal with.
> 
> ...



Very true and well put Jay.

As a track on it's own, you can appreciate the level of technique and skill that went into it. No question.

As use for anything else, I'm not really sure. It's not meant to be be in all probability. 

Laying down anything behind picture especially when there's dialogue and SFX has got to be fairly simplistic most of the time. For most of us, that's enough.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 22, 2014)

....and the question in all minds- will the TJBKI Exclusive Library be released commercially?


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## givemenoughrope (Feb 22, 2014)

KingIdiot @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> givemenoughrope @ Fri Feb 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Ian Dorsch @ Fri Feb 21 said:
> ...



well, someone has to play lead. you guys are crazy NOT to do this.


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## KingIdiot (Feb 22, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Feb 22 said:


> ....and the question in all minds- will the TJBKI Exclusive Library be released commercially?



I think the better question would be: "I wonder if I could get together with some people and do something like this for myself?"

I think I've spoken about the library in the context that we're used to. Usually something like this is rarely discussed publicly. I just wanted to praise the work that was done on it, but also the idea that it could be done at all. You all know that I think DIY is a wonderful thing to promote and inject into this community.

I just wanted to share how much fun it was to build something with a friend. Yes it's amazing. It's 30+ combined years of experience doing it, but ultimately it was for one purpose: To make music making fun and the focus. Fortunately for him, we read from the same page in design, and really want the same thing from the end instrument. To sound good, but also as important, be fun to play. So hired gun or not, it was super fun, and lots of virtual high fives as we kept building.

Anyway, pretty sure when TJ said "it's all custom samples" it wasn't about "hey look what i have that you don't", and more "look what can be done with samples these days!!!". I'm probably gonna leave it all at that about this private set. But maybe you'll hear more of what it can do as he shares more music and when I find time to write once I'm not in double caretaker mode. I've actually been off VI for a while, had to be pointed to this thread. :/

As for heavy metal orchestra, I am looking forward to visiting with him sometime when things settle, and bringing a guitar to jam.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 22, 2014)

I don't disagree with you, but some people want to build airplanes and fly them. Some people want to know something about the mechanics of airplane building but are far more interested in flying them and don't ever particularly want to build one.


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## José Herring (Feb 22, 2014)

If I could get something that sounded half as good, I'd be all for DIY. Now where can I get 300 grand?


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## KingIdiot (Feb 22, 2014)

wasn't there some interview where TJ said he wanted to fly commercial airplanes, way back when?

(all this talk of the lib has me noodling and building in the few hours I have here today, you guys are ruining my final few eps of House of cards binge!)


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## germancomponist (Feb 22, 2014)

josejherring @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> If I could get something that sounded half as good, I'd be all for DIY. Now where can I get 300 grand?



He he, where is your self-confidence? o/~


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## Ed (Feb 22, 2014)

The thing is it's not at all just the library. People might think it sounds great but if TJ was using all the public commercial libs people would wonder how it was even possible. If people think this sounds good because of the library they are just wrong. TJ made old libs sound amazing. It's only because it's got this mystery that people will put more emphasis around the lib and less around the how good he is at using it. People that have been following what TJs been doing for the past decade should know this


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## milesito (Feb 22, 2014)

Do you think TJ would ever sell his library collection?


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## edhamilton (Feb 23, 2014)

Lawson. @ Thu Feb 20 said:


> And a machine with 128 GBs of RAM? Wowwwwwwwwwwwwww. :shock:



Where is the info on TJ's Daw?
I'm curious about his current system.


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## Simon Ravn (Feb 23, 2014)

Ed @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> The thing is it's not at all just the library. People might think it sounds great but if TJ was using all the public commercial libs people would wonder how it was even possible. If people think this sounds good because of the library they are just wrong. TJ made old libs sound amazing. It's only because it's got this mystery that people will put more emphasis around the lib and less around the how good he is at using it. People that have been following what TJs been doing for the past decade should know this



Totally agree with that - personally, I couldn't care less if this collection was released to the public. It wouldn't make a huge difference to most people. If people think it is the samples that make this work, they are ignorant and blind. To quote Bruce Richardson (I think): "It is not the wand, it is the witch". Something along those lines 8)


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## Simon Ravn (Feb 23, 2014)

edhamilton @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> Lawson. @ Thu Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> > And a machine with 128 GBs of RAM? Wowwwwwwwwwwwwww. :shock:
> ...



I am sure he uses slaves. When using this much RAM on one single machine, it becomes problematic. Less responsive, more CPU hungry. It seems OS'es cant cope with this amount of loaded samples. I get in trouble with "just" about 30 GB loaded, so 128 would just be asking for trouble. Unless Windows is much better at handling this than OS X of course.


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## José Herring (Feb 23, 2014)

Simon Ravn @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> Ed @ Sun Feb 23 said:
> 
> 
> > The thing is it's not at all just the library. People might think it sounds great but if TJ was using all the public commercial libs people would wonder how it was even possible. If people think this sounds good because of the library they are just wrong. TJ made old libs sound amazing. It's only because it's got this mystery that people will put more emphasis around the lib and less around the how good he is at using it. People that have been following what TJs been doing for the past decade should know this
> ...



I wasn't suggesting that it's not TJ's skill. Merely pointing out that if you have samples recorded and programmed to the way you think musically then it makes doing mockups all that much more fun thus you're willing to stick with it longer with better results. I've as much started some private sampling and it makes a huge difference in the results you can get, imo. I find that when I use commercial samples I keep on having to spend too much time trying to decipher what somebody else considers mf, for example. 

I haven't commented on TJ's work here, because I don't know what to think of it other than it took some amazing technical skill to pull it off. What I will say is that yes I do think having your own private samples can make a difference. But, I would never say that it's just a library. That would be stupid.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 23, 2014)

If no one was thinking great new samples would help the sound of their productions, there would be a lot of unhappy developers on this forum.


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## IFM (Feb 23, 2014)

josejherring @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> Simon Ravn @ Sun Feb 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Sun Feb 23 said:
> ...



He stated he can do it all in one machine. He describes it in the Facebook thread. Go like his page and read the comments. 
Chris


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## Mahlon (Feb 23, 2014)

Thomas_J @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> When you're younger it seems so convenient, necessary even, to follow the paved road. To go through the motions, do your time as an intern, do work for free, work your way up the ladder. That's the advice people are given, and that's the advice people follow. I've never been too keen on people who tell me what to do, so after a few years of trying to conform, I decided to just be me, and if it meant crashing and burning, so be it.



I hear ya, brother.

o-[][]-o


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## eric aron (Feb 23, 2014)

yes indeed … i see so much talking about these "custom mythic libraries.." maybe this was justified some years ago, but now... aren't all you happy enough with the new coming libraries from Spitfire / Orchestral Tools? isn't there far enough potential to write beautiful expressive music? are you not enough convinced by these examples? :

https://soundcloud.com/hendrik-schwarze ... in-strings

https://soundcloud.com/spitfireaudio/jo ... bachs-head

searching for what more? i see here so many sophisticated discussions on tiny details about this or that library articulation, script.. okay, but to serve which purpose? which talent? which music?

There is only one way : developing the skills, developing the skills, developing the skills. and go to listen real concerts, play at least one real instrument with a good enough level, impregnate with the great composers masterpieces. 

And the most important : choose your path according to your life ethics, and do it, whatever happens.


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 23, 2014)

I think, Thomas, FWIW, that Nadia Boulanger would be rather proud of you for identifying that which is important in the making and creating of music, and acting on it as you are clearly doing. Bravo. Be blessed.


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## Blackster (Feb 23, 2014)

eric aron @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> yes indeed … i see so much talking about these "custom mythic libraries.." maybe this was justified some years ago, but now... aren't all you happy enough with the new coming libraries from Spitfire / Orchestral Tools? isn't there far enough potential to write beautiful expressive music? are you not enough convinced by these examples? :
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/hendrik-schwarze ... in-strings
> 
> ...



Yes, you are right: skill is key!! 

But I'm not sure I agree with what you said about custom libraries. IMO the point is to create a unique sound which is not re-creatable with commercial libraries. It's about being unique and delievering an unique sound. When everybody has got the same tools at their fingertips what makes you different !? ... 

=> Your individual sound created with custom libraries and your individual composotion/orchestration style!


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## germancomponist (Feb 23, 2014)

Thomas_J @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> As King so eloquently explained, custom libraries follow the same basic recipes as everything else out there. There's the usual concept of legato samples, round robin shorts and mic positions etc. what I try to do different is make it less cluttered. I look at interfaces these days and they give me a headache. There are so many options for tweaking tiny little things that you just get lost in the technical jungle, when all you really want to do is just compose. If things simply worked (I.e intelligently programmed and intuitive response with all the trickery tucked away under a closed hood) then you wouldn't need millions of knobs, sliders, buttons, key switches etc etc. I think this is a price end users pay for being at the mercy of very technically oriented developers with a very technical approach to music. It's the Achilles heel of sampling, with some exceptions of course.



EXACTLY! o/~ o=< o-[][]-o


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## José Herring (Feb 23, 2014)

Musically to be honest the first time I listened I couldn't get past the first 20 seconds. Then I tried listening again and made it a little farther. Once again, I tried listening and made it to 2 minutes. The last time I listened I made it half way through and I must admit that on the 4th time, I rather enjoyed it. Next time I'll try making it all the way!

On a lighter note, there was a composer complaining that "you can't do the same thing with samples that you can do with live players" as part of a larger conversation on facebook. I posted a link to this piece saying that samples can do a lot and that wasn't an excuse for the same tired argument against samples. I noticed that the conversation which had been very active shortly after posting TJ's piece, quieted down


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## NYC Composer (Feb 23, 2014)

josejherring @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> Musically to be honest the first time I listened I couldn't get past the first 20 seconds. Then I tried listening again and made it a little farther. Once again, I tried listening and made it to 2 minutes. The last time I listened I made it half way through and I must admit that on the 4th time, I rather enjoyed it. Next time I'll try making it all the way!
> 
> On a lighter note, there was a composer complaining that "you can't do the same thing with samples that you can do with live players" as part of a larger conversation on facebook. I posted a link to this piece saying that samples can do a lot and that wasn't an excuse for the same tired argument against samples. I noticed that the conversation which had been very active shortly after posting TJ's piece, quieted down



Not that you'd necessarily want them to, but samples and sequencers can also do things live musicians can't do, i.e. play things at impossible tempos, hold (looped) notes forever, etc etc. a 4 note chord using a 6 French horn sustain sample= 24 horns. Not a lot of orchestras with that many horns.

As the tools get better, more extensive and intuitive, I think professionals are starting to be unable to tell whether things are live or sampled. I freely admit I am with the better sampled orchestrators. I know for a fact that laymen don't even think in those terms- not one of my clients or people I play things for speak in those terms, but when we, the keepers of the flame, can't tell which is live and which is Memorex , the game has changed.

The argument has always been "well, in an A/B situation, I can always tell," to which I've always thought "so? Does the sampled version sound good standing on it's own?"

This is all just musing, but if the NSA can capture and store every bit of data everywhere, it seems just a matter of time until we can sample every possible way there is to play a violin, every expression, nuance, dynamic, method of connectivity and make it all intuitive and (relatively) affordable. That will level the playing field some, but the same thing will happen- great, talented hard working cream of the crop writers will rise to the top as they always have, and the productions of more mediocre composers will ...sound better.


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## eric aron (Feb 23, 2014)

as for interfaces, there are simple solutions with tactile surfaces and 3D gesture control, and keyboards like Roli Seaboard or TouchKeys, which are promising. this allows more direct interaction with the instruments nuances. you only need to have some keyboard technicals

nearly nobody on the individual level has the time and guts and money to develop extensively a private custom library, and i feel this creative and innovative work is relevant to the developers themselves. up to them to follow the inspired way, or be the slaves to all ongoing trends.

Blackster : the problem is that in the now times we talk and promote more about "the sound" than "the music". because of the clever marketing reign and the degradation of the musical quality and ethics.

i would more focus on a "unique music" than a "unique sound". even if this example is also biased. unique music will also naturally flow if you broke the ego barriers. and thus overtake the social pressures, images, and injunctions. this should be the aspiration for any artist. copy or remake is not creation.

creating such unique music just asks for simple good quality basic tools, not hundreds articulations, and this is why i mention the Spitfire and OT recent libraries, which have reached the level to allow extremely creative music writing. please developers, follow the way


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## eric aron (Feb 23, 2014)

josejherring @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> Musically to be honest the first time I listened I couldn't get past the first 20 seconds. Then I tried listening again and made it a little farther. Once again, I tried listening and made it to 2 minutes. The last time I listened I made it half way through and I must admit that on the 4th time, I rather enjoyed it. Next time I'll try making it all the way!
> 
> On a lighter note, there was a composer complaining that "you can't do the same thing with samples that you can do with live players" as part of a larger conversation on facebook. I posted a link to this piece saying that samples can do a lot and that wasn't an excuse for the same tired argument against samples. I noticed that the conversation which had been very active shortly after posting TJ's piece, quieted down



didn't you just illustrated the brain adaptation ability? i still can't listen for long to this music, because it's artificial context. i want to be delighted with music, not performance challenges. i understand Thomas position, no worry. i did the same kinds challenges also years before. 

maybe we can't do the same music with samples than with orchestra, but we can do beautiful music with both. for the ones criticizing samples, then please write for orchestra.


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## handz (Feb 23, 2014)

Ed is right, TJ can make even standard commercial library wonderful, so it is not about custom libs at all. Having custom lib made the way you like is always a big plus of course. 

I like what TJ said - most of new libs are too complicated with too many things, too many options. I just wanna load and play, less tweaking - the best. Of course the commercial libraries are made so as much peopel can use them as possible and benefit of custom is that you make it so it fits your own style.


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## choc0thrax (Feb 23, 2014)

Sweet piece of music. Got distracted by the Powell influence and the part at 3:24 sounds like Trevor Jones' Dark City having sex with Debney's Lair or something. But overall very nice.


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## BNRSound (Feb 23, 2014)

Damn, this is f***ing amazing! I love super intense, dynamic music like this. I segued into cinematic music from listening to a ton of death/thrash/prog/tech metal (still do) so maybe I'm in the minority here, but I love this sort of stuff. I'm going to have to check out more of your works now. I've listened to this tune maybe a dozen times in a row now. Epic.

_-)


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## aaronnt1 (Feb 24, 2014)

There was a interesting discussion on Soundsonline last year about what seemed like a connection between metal/hard rock and the love for orchestral music. Myself, I also segued from hard rock bands like Faith No More, Soundgarden, Mr Bungle, Smashing Pumpkins, Korn even etc.. before I found a love for Tchaikovsky, Chopin, Stravinsky and orchestral film scores.

It's difficult to know if there really is more of a predilection for rock/metal fans to also appreciate orchestral music than fans of other genres - but if there is a connection, it would be interesting to know why. Perhaps it's the innate dramaticism /heightened emotion of both styles?


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## Diffusor (Feb 24, 2014)

aaronnt1 @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> There was a interesting discussion on Soundsonline last year about what seemed like a connection between metal/hard rock and the love for orchestral music. Myself, I also segued from hard rock bands like Faith No More, Soundgarden, Mr Bungle, Smashing Pumpkins, Korn even etc.. before I found a love for Tchaikovsky, Chopin, Stravinsky and orchestral film scores.
> 
> It's difficult to know if there really is more of a predilection for rock/metal fans to also appreciate orchestral music than fans of other genres - but if there is a connection, it would be interesting to know why. Perhaps it's the innate dramaticism /heightened emotion of both styles?



Well why not just combine the two?


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## Blackster (Feb 24, 2014)

eric aron @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> Blackster : the problem is that in the now times we talk and promote more about "the sound" than "the music". because of the clever marketing reign and the degradation of the musical quality and ethics.



You are right that nowadays marketing and the business part in general is more important than the actual music. (and that's sad ...)

But that does not have anything to do with creating custom libraries. Marketing is there because developers want to sell you something. They don't care whether or not you need their product, at the end of the day it's about money and profit. That's how a company works. 

But when somebody creates his own custom libraries, what does this have to do with marketing !? It's work, it's time and it's money. If you are doing this (in this big scale like sampling the whole orchestra) it's not about marketing or any trends. It's about having an unique sound which nobody else can re-create. If you can do it, do it ... and that's exactly what TJ did  ... and btw, HZ has been doing this for decades now. And there are thousands of other composers who did the same and still do it. So this is nothing new at all. Just saying!


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## blougui (Feb 24, 2014)

> Blackster : the problem is that in the now times we talk and promote more about "the sound" than "the music". because of the clever marketing reign and the degradation of the musical quality and ethics.



Degradation of the musical quality and ethics ?
We've heard this since at least 50 years. From the early days of rock&roll, for instance. Even electric guitars were considered by some a leap backward and were promised to a rapid decline.
"It's just bizzness now"...
And ethics ? When music companies were paying almost illegaly radio stations to have their artists aired ?It did'nt start with MTV. At least these pratices ended in th US when federal agencies decided to put an end to it.
Artists were endorsing brands decades ago.
in France, before FM stations have the righ to air in 1981, we were hammered by the same artists and on and on.They were ubiquitous on the tv shows, a small bunch of them. From the day M stations surfaced, with new programmers, a whole new musical world bloomed.
Ethic in a capitalistic world, when almost everyone dream of making a lot of money for the sake of having some more, is not really an option. I mean, you cannot rely too much on it, unless one works for free. I'm a tad exagerating here for the sake of my argument but ethics in a commercial world, even an artistic one, have always been shaky not to say condemned.
When y ou want to earn a bit more than what you've spent to produce something, be it cash investment , your time, what you estimate your skills are worth, lies the agonizing about ethics.
I'm afraid we'd better admit it to not live in regrets, like in a "yesteryears were better" kind of mood.

- Erik


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## Markus S (Feb 24, 2014)

Diffusor @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> aaronnt1 @ Mon Feb 24 said:
> 
> 
> > There was a interesting discussion on Soundsonline last year about what seemed like a connection between metal/hard rock and the love for orchestral music. Myself, I also segued from hard rock bands like Faith No More, Soundgarden, Mr Bungle, Smashing Pumpkins, Korn even etc.. before I found a love for Tchaikovsky, Chopin, Stravinsky and orchestral film scores.
> ...




Thanks diffusor, just the energy I needed!


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## blougui (Feb 24, 2014)

One of the connection I can identify between hard-rock/metal and classical music is "virtuoso". Same connection with jazz. 
I've encountered much less connections between hard rock and electro-pop or EDM, as far as musicians are concerned. Saying this after conversations I had with listeners.

- Erik


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## KingIdiot (Feb 24, 2014)

I think EDM and most music with electronic music focus can be just as musical if you begin to think outside of breaking everything down to basic musical rules, and incorporate the idea of sound/mix an extension of orchestration and arrangment as well. For what is balance via dynamics orcheatration but mixing? Ivwood believe that some of yhe better EDM guys have a great understanding of the overtones series and, while they may not all know it, if you begin to look at why the sounds work together so well you can find a rich amount of musical reasons in the math.

Music is sound, sound can be music.

All that said, the beat we can all do is look for something to gain from it all. Be better active listeners, if we expect others outside to appreciate some of what we hear that they don't.

Also. The library has nothing to do with Thomas's skill at making mockups, but equateing that to mean it isn't meaningful in the sound of this cue does a diservice to how ridiculously good it is at a lot of things. That idea of why the cue is so good because of his talent, and replace the word "cue" with library. add to it that its built to be inspiring for him, and you get something that he can sit around and "excercise" with, instead of working against him. There is no perfect library, but this does a lot of things perfectly for him


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## Leon Willett (Feb 24, 2014)

Hey Thomas, how's it going?  

If you find yourself in the mood to make (at least!) a million dollars in 30 days, you could put your library on kickstarter for 1k a copy and set the green light to 1000 buyers. Judging from typical sales figures on 1k libs I believe you'd end up selling 2-3 thousand copies (2-3 million revenue). 

This really isn't coming from a sample-jealousy standpoint -- to be honest I've been happy with my mockups for years  It's more from a stand point of letting loose an incredible music making tool and basically making the wold better. 

I've done 3 custom sampling projects myself (two of them full orchestra minus perc), one time investing more than €30k myself, and because of my agreements with the others involved, am in the odd position of living on a space rock for a few decades and then taking the samples to my grave. There are some gems in there which I would love to see in the hands of others... 

If you can, and if you want to, put that sample goodness out into the world  It would empower your future projects with a very large cash injection, and empower the world to make more music. 

Take care man!!!!


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## J:H (Feb 25, 2014)

> I'm just having fun so why would I create this, not for a movie but for myself? Well, why not right? We create what we like. I've always been a fan of metal music and since I can't play guitar worth [email protected]%# I fake it with an orchestra Some people hate it, some people like it. To me it's enjoyable to push boundaries and provoke. The beauty of music is that no one can tell you what to do. You just do it. It's my anarchistic inclinations, lived out through a passive aggressive medium.



Amen! The sound of freedom! This incredible track is a real energy injection and will fuel at least me for a long time. Thank you Thomas!


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## eric aron (Feb 25, 2014)

@ Blackster : yes, i agree, my point wasn't on this facet.

@ Blougui : i don't complain on it, nor live in regrets from the past. i am pretty happy to live now, with all the fabulous technologic potentials. i couldn't do my projects without it. but when listening to many musics from now, there are clear clues indicating a retrograde level, mostly because of the perverse commercial "ethics" in use, and the general blindness of conscience. 
but happily there are lots of geniusly gifted artists in the backstage of all the cheap crap given to the masses. 

the artistic level of a civilisation is the mirror of its conscience level.. (et la France n'est pas un exemple d'intégrité non plus, je le reconnais)

@Ashif : i produce EDM music, psytrance, minimal techno, as well as classical symphonic and piano solo - concertos. so no worry to be close minded. i agree in some part that in edm we cultivate also a "sound", but all this is to make music, and only music will move people on the dance floor. try to give them just sound..


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 25, 2014)

> It's negative energy that I'd much rather be without.



Especially when Kontakt or an OS updates and you're suddenly obsolete! :shock:


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## KingIdiot (Feb 25, 2014)

I want to be treated like a king.


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## Leon Willett (Feb 26, 2014)

Thomas_J @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> Hi Leon! That's a great idea! Maybe you should have a talk with your sampling buddies about this



Yes, I would love this! The first two projects were small and did not turn out that well (a learning process), and my suggestion was, after a few years passed to simply release them for free, open source style. But the other members did not want this, and in one case the contracts with the musicians also forbid it. 

My third and largest project was 50% funded by me, and 50% funded by a government grant for recording musicians. This allowed me to work with an amazing (well paid!) orchestra in a great room, and I was able to massage the performances into exciting, passionate samples, great shorts, etc, using imaginary musical context, that kind of thing. But both the terms of the grant (project must be non-profit), and the contract with the orchestra (mechanical rights, etc) are both a trap; I can't even give it away. 

To me, this is like inventing a new and awesome guitar, and then putting it in a museum. 

I guess I wanted to make a philosophical point. I feel like asking my colleagues: when we are all dead in 50-60 years, what do we do, burn the hard disks? Can the tools be released then? LOL I look at it as a bunch of composers on a rock, flying through space, hiding things from each other. I'm not saying there's an easy solution, but I am saying it's weird. 



Thomas_J @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> It's negative energy that I'd much rather be without



Ye I get it


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## blougui (Feb 26, 2014)

Vin @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> rpaillot @ 19/2/2014 said:
> 
> 
> > Vin @ Wed Feb 19 said:
> ...



You should read interviews from Antony Gonzales (the one man behind M83) One before Oblivion and one after. The French musician went all the way from France to LA to be able to score movies one day. Fullfilled a dream, as many.
Thanx to the huge success of his double LP in the US, he grabbed a deal to score Oblivion.
Then the nightmare began... 
In the end, Gonzales wanted "M83" to be retrieved from the titles, replaced it by Antony Gonzales because he felt what's left of his music has so little to do with what he usually produces. But production refused to let go the moniker as they wanted to surf on its success. The man is bitter now - at least in itv following the screenings.

Ones should never forget how deeply producers are involved in musical directions/options/choices when blockbusters are concerned - remember the awful experience Gregson-Williams had with Bruckheimer. He never talks about M. Bay.
It relates very well to T.J. comments about a career in the movie industry.


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## AlexandreSafi (Aug 9, 2014)

Ok, 

I dug this out again, because it simply needs to...
I just listened to this 3 times in a row = 30 minutes...
It's just...
There's sooo much to learn from this, it's straight going to my transcribing list, my ear and i'm dedicated to commit this piece to memory...
And to those who said this is only a "technical" achievement, are you kidding me?!? I can tell from miles away an artist who even has the melodic chops *simply by listening to his "underscore" music*, and Thomas is without the single doubt one of them!!

Thank you so much Thomas, just know there's at least one person who managed to sit down glued and paid attention to the details, with chills going down my spine, and arms, it's got everything.. This man absorbed the elements of stylistic action & emotional styles music from Bach, Powell, John Williams, Alan Silvestri, James Newton Howard, James Horner, Danny Elfman, Hans Zimmer, Elliot Goldenthal & Abel Korzeniowski...

This truly is the steamroller of action music, with some subtle yet incredible moments of cultural diversity while still being orchestral all the way through!

Did i just forget to mention, as everybody knows, this is just "MIDI computer quantized (music?)"
Mr. Bergersen, i could not care less that you are not doing movies, you are a true modern mentor for me!
I truly wish you the best in your career!

My great respects,
Alexandre


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## Rainmaker (Aug 10, 2014)

It's not all about the samples - it's the use of it. And what TJ especially does - he *demoes* his own library.


In case anyone missed it: http://www.karma-lab.com/mg/ag-pd.html (TooningUp_PasDeDeux) 

This was made by Stephen-(master of sequence)-Kay in the early nineties with the 01w and the orchestral card only - there were 6 MB + 2 MB of ROM-Sounds available (not only orchestral)

And now imagine what one can do with this amount of arranging skills and TJ's Lib...(!)


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## Stephen Rees (Aug 10, 2014)

Rainmaker @ Sun Aug 10 said:


> It's not all about the samples - it's the use of it. And what TJ especially does - he *demoes* his own library.
> 
> 
> In case anyone missed it: http://www.karma-lab.com/mg/ag-pd.html (TooningUp_PasDeDeux)
> ...



Ha ha! Thanks for posting that 

I had one of those 01W's. Mine never sounded as good as that though. I must have had a defective one...


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## Jetzer (Aug 10, 2014)

Thanks for bringing this thread up again, I still use that track as a reference for my mockups now and then. This one and Hans' Man Of Steel Demo.

Haven't even got close to that level, but sometimes it is good to realize that there is a lot more work to do


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## bill45 (Aug 10, 2014)

Is the classical card still available?
Is it only available for the 01W?


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## Rainmaker (Aug 10, 2014)

yes, only for 01W. And hard to find (used ones).

What I dont understand is that Korg is not able/willing to include it in the Legacy-Collection. Even not after all the years the collection is out now.

I mean, what's the problem ? All the M and T cards are included. Why not the 01W cards ? Why is it that big problem to include the whole 01-series incl. Wave-Shaping ?

And WHEN Korg, WHEN do you ever realize, that a virtual Wavestation gets the ultimate power if you switch the wave-sequences to user samples !??

(sorry for ranting)


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## Carbs (Aug 10, 2014)

JH @ Sun Aug 10 said:


> Thanks for bringing this thread up again, I still use that track as a reference for my mockups now and then. This one and *Hans' Man Of Steel Demo.*
> 
> Haven't even got close to that level, but sometimes it is good to realize that there is a lot more work to do



Where's this demo acquired?


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## Jetzer (Aug 10, 2014)

Carbs @ August 10th said:


> JH @ Sun Aug 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for bringing this thread up again, I still use that track as a reference for my mockups now and then. This one and *Hans' Man Of Steel Demo.*
> ...



It was on the soundtrack release, you can find it here on YT: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pbF7pkWwJ8

(good YT channel that one)


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## bill45 (Aug 10, 2014)

Thanks Rainmaker


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## Carbs (Aug 10, 2014)

JH @ Sun Aug 10 said:


> Carbs @ August 10th said:
> 
> 
> > JH @ Sun Aug 10 said:
> ...



Ooh, the Hans sketchbook album only track. I think I noticed that forever ago (I had downloaded the title track only so far) guess I'll have to pick up the rest now.
Thanks!


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## Jetzer (Sep 1, 2014)

While I was writing (or trying to write) an epic sort of piece, as a personal studie thing, I constantly go back to Thomas demo's as well as Brian Tyler's and John Powell's recent scores. Was sort of going for a mix of TB, BT, JP or something like that. Listening to the real thing, or in this case, not the real thing is quite frustrating sometimes  But you learn a lot. 

Also came across Hans' fourteen year old (!) old Gladiator Demo somewhere on my pc. 
Still sounds better than most modern demo's. 

Steve Mazarro has some good ones on YouTube as well. 

Getting closer though, just a little bit.


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## MR F (Sep 6, 2014)

AlexandreSafi @ Sat Aug 09 said:


> Ok,
> 
> I dug this out again, because it simply needs to...
> I just listened to this 3 times in a row = 30 minutes...
> ...


Just found out this thread was posted on facebook.
I'm so glad you did dig it out. It's the very reason I started this thread. Ofc Thomas is an absolute mockup master but it is even more than that. I can still remember when I was listening to "That's A Wrap" for the first time with my jaw on the ground. Just as you said: it is a wonderful combination of all these different styles from so many composers. Something you're listening to while thinking to yourself: Damn, I wish I could do that.

I'm still hoping: lots, lots, looooots of hard work and I will get there one day


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## pixel (Sep 6, 2014)

Woow brilliant work! Composition, sound, everything and composition again
Thomas, this mockup make me cry because I feel that I should start to looking for new job, maybe in KFC or somewhere as waiter :wink:


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## Mahlon (Sep 7, 2014)

JH @ Mon Sep 01 said:


> While I was writing (or trying to write) an epic sort of piece, as a personal studie thing, I constantly go back to Thomas demo's as well as Brian Tyler's and John Powell's recent scores. Was sort of going for a mix of TB, BT, JP or something like that. Listening to the real thing, or in this case, not the real thing is quite frustrating sometimes  But you learn a lot.
> 
> Also came across Hans' fourteen year old (!) old Gladiator Demo somewhere on my pc.
> Still sounds better than most modern demo's.
> ...



Jesse,

I like your music at soundcloud. Pacing and mood are really good, and I like the fact that leave some openness in the compositions and the mixes -- not so dense as to become thick. They're clear. Good luck in your quest.

Mahlon


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## Black Light Recordings (Feb 19, 2015)

Glad I found this thread. Gonna go back and read from the start.


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## valexnerfarious (Jul 28, 2018)

Is Thomas still on VI?


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## dpasdernick (Jul 28, 2018)

Thank God it took him 10 days. I was worried he was going to say "ya, I was hang gliding over Malibu and this piece of music popped into my head. I went home and threw it together that evening"

I love his Soaring over Hollywood and Itineris Spiritus compositions as well. The man is a talent and a gentleman.


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## Mike Marino (Jul 28, 2018)

valexnerfarious said:


> Is Thomas still on VI?


No, I believe he left a while back.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 28, 2018)

Best for all. Genius, not patient.


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