# Where do you even begin!?



## CDB (Oct 20, 2017)

Hello everybody,

So I am sure numerous posts have been made like this before so I hope you don’t mind me making another. I’m 27, I recently went back to get my Honours degree in Audio Production, which I’ve just finished. Over the past year and a half I have been working diligently to improve my craft and develop my sound design, compositional and production skills, and I’ve been fortunate enough to work on some great projects. Now that I am finished with my degree, unemployed and on the hunt for work, I find myself lost and wondering where to even begin!

This industry right now feels like a giant cloud, that I know exists, but I have no idea how to penetrate. Although most industries are competitive these days, the world of composition and audio -as you all know- is even more so, and unlike some professions there is no direct route into it. Occasionally audio engineer jobs are advertised and snapped up. Recently a job in Bristol (UK) for a company named Radium Audio opened up. The position is for a recent graduate to work in house and churn out compositions mostly for trailers, they do seem like a great company to work for. Already they have received 900 applicants, and they are still accepting more!!! Are they nuts!? My point is it’s damn competitive out there!

Now I’m sure like many of you I have useful skillets that can be implemented into varying projects such as: Field recordings, Foley, Sound Design, Music Production, Composition, Editing, Audio Clean-up, the list goes on. Of course my true dream and my passion is music composition but it feels like this very ambitious goal with no clear path in sight. I would be happy to sustain myself by working on many various projects, not putting my eggs in one basket so to speak, but even then, how do I go about it? There is some freelance website available but again competition is high with lots of people pitching, even for the poorly paid jobs. It’s easy to feel deterred and deflated when you begin to examine the industry. Obviously networking is a huge part of it, although I live in Scotland which is not a very large country and it’s not like I live in a flourishing city like LA or London.

I am just looking for some discussion, advice both from the more experienced members of the forum who are generating some income and from those who are starting out. To the experienced members: How did you start? What do you advise? How did you stay motivated, focused and not lose hope? Did you focus on one particular area (TV for example) or did you try your hand at everything until something took off? How do you stay on top of the game? How did your biggest clients come around?

I have also made a showreel recently, if anyone is interested you can find that here: 

Long post, so thanks for reading and I would love to have some interesting chats in this thread and cheers in advance!!


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## CDB (Oct 25, 2017)

So no one wants to discuss this?


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## Jaap (Oct 26, 2017)

When starting out (or also when working in it for longer then a decade like me) it can feel like a tremendous big world and it is also exactly that. The thing is to narrow it down to sizable proportions and that is mainly done by exploring and using your (hopefully) already existing network and build from there.

To give an example how I started. I finished my conservatory and university study (classical composition, musicology and sonology) and I had a few nice projects going on in the contemporary classical music scene while graduating and just after that. The network of art directors and musicians I knew I used to keep some ongoing projects, but I knew already I wanted to expand my horizon and move away from the classical music scene a bit (didn't like the attitude). While having the earlier mentioned projects I started applying for jobs and landed a job as just a low level sound tech guy at a big game company. I worked there for 3 years and learning gazillions of things and also expanded my network there. I didn't want to migrate to the US fully in order to maybe grow into a full inhouse composer/audio producer and in good terms I quited my job there. The experience there and having this job on my resumé and with an extended network it allowed me to start my own game audio production company at that time and many years later now I moved on to a lot of new steps and just builded my career. I am not a big player in this game, but I am able to live completely off my music for more then a decade.

Moral of the story. Every road is unique, what works for me doesn't mean it will work for you or others and the other way around, but a thing probably most stories and experiences have in common is the importance of your network and work hard (and if not on a job, working on good demos, skills etc)


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 26, 2017)

Unfortunately, there is no clear-cut path. First of all, decide what your strengths are and go from there; knock on doors (literally), send cold emails, make phone calls, join your local union (IATSE, etc). Also, you could contact film schools and your local independent film community...there's a lot of experience you can gain by taking on some low budget indie stuff and hanging out with editors while they work, etc. And most importantly, be persistent and realize that it takes time. By taking time, I mean it could take several years before you start actually earning substantial money from this. It also doesn't hurt to get a day job so that you can actually live comfortably while pursuing your passion. I've been plugging away at this for 25 years, and I'm nowhere near the point of living off the income; it's so sporadic, but the passion is always burning inside and I love doing it. Fortunately, I also have a non-music professional career that enabled me to raise a family and fund my endless money pit of musical gear and sample libraries. So between that, a professional drummer, composing music for theater, tv and film, I'm a happy guy.


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## mc_deli (Oct 26, 2017)

CDB said:


> So no one wants to discuss this?


No one wants to discuss this because "this" has to be the worst mauve collar profession for career path, employment prospects, structure, mentoring, collective rights/bargaining/other, global competition, downward price pressure etc etc etc. 

If you are in band you can be amazing and never be "successful" but at least you get to get up on stage, make some noise, and make a fool of yourself. With "this" you are just crushed and desolate in a darkened room with online strangers.

(My day off today!)


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## Scoremixer (Oct 26, 2017)

As others have said, everyone gets into it a different way, so giving direct advice that's relevant to you is tough. 

The biggest bit of advice would be to get yourself to London. If you can't afford that, then work a shit job until can save enough to afford it. Being in proximity of the action is worth far more than pissing in the wind with job applications with the same odds as lottery tickets!


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## mac (Oct 26, 2017)

There may be 900 applicants for that job but out of those, only 10 will probably write half decent music, and then maybe only one of those can write half decent music to picture. I think my point is to continue honing your skills. If you've got 'it', chances are you'll get noticed and start creating a buzz. It's so organic, every successful composer has a completely different _how they got here_ story.


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## Desire Inspires (Oct 26, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> No one wants to discuss this because "this" has to be the worst mauve collar profession for career path, employment prospects, structure, mentoring, collective rights/bargaining/other, global competition, downward price pressure etc etc etc.
> 
> If you are in band you can be amazing and never be "successful" but at least you get to get up on stage, make some noise, and make a fool of yourself. With "this" you are just crushed and desolate in a darkened room with online strangers.
> 
> (My day off today!)



Amen!

Nothing against you or your hard work, but it is tough to make a living at music. Even having a degree will not help.

But if you are dead-set in making it in music, move to LA, work a crummy day job and beg to ghostwrite or intern for a big name composer or production company. 

Work in related fields like royalty collection, marketing, etc just to get connected to people who do music for TV and film.

Hell, get a day job at a music library in LA and find a way to sneak some of your music into the catalog! Move to NY or Nashville and get a day job with BMI or ASCAP! 

I think more people who can move to LA should find a day job in the music business as support staff for record labels, TV production companies, or music libraries. That is exactly what I would do if I were under 30 years old and had no kids or spouse to support. 

Call up music libraries and companies to see if you can do an internship or some other support job for a decent salary. Don’t even waste time talking about your music. Just work for these companies and build relationships. Do the music on the side. You will find more opportunities just working in supporting roles because you will connect with the right people at some point.


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## Jaap (Oct 26, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> move to LA



Depends on what you want to do exactly. I just moved to the most eastern part of the Netherlands, surrounded by 12 cows, 4 chickens, some farmers up ahead on the road, a church and 20 min from a supermarket, all in all not the most advanced networking location  and yet I am still able to live from my music. Be smart if you don't want to move and do all the things you mention, but be sure to go to conferences or industry related events to build up the network, but for sure LA is not the only place where you have to be.


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## Desire Inspires (Oct 26, 2017)

Jaap said:


> Depends on what you want to do exactly. I just moved to the most eastern part of the Netherlands, surrounded by 12 cows, 4 chickens, some farmers up ahead on the road, a church and 20 min from a supermarket, all in all not the most advanced networking location  and yet I am still able to live from my music. Be smart if you don't want to move and do all the things you mention, but be sure to go to conferences or industry related events to build up the network, but for sure LA is not the only place where you have to be.



You are lucky. Extremely lucky!

I would say that anyone can make a living from any part of the world, but move to LA just to be safe! 

If you fail in LA, you can always go back home.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 26, 2017)

And as mentioned, it's more than just your skills and the music itself. From my experience, most of your success will come from self marketing. I'm not the best business man, but the key is to sell yourself into the industry....convince a director that you are the best he/she will find for their project. I have a friend who is quite frankly, not a good composer, but he managed to talk his way into some great gigs...such as scoring a bunch of Lexus commercials.


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## Desire Inspires (Oct 26, 2017)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I have a friend who is quite frankly, not a good composer, but he managed to talk his way into some great gigs...such as scoring a bunch of Lexus commercials.



That is awesome!

That is what I am talking about. The best music doesn’t always win out. It is about having good music and having good relationships with people. If you have good relationships, you can live on Mars and compose. But without them, you need to go to where the action is and be cool with the right people.


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## kurtvanzo (Oct 26, 2017)

Hey Chris,

Jumping into the field from anywhere is tough nowadays, but the good news is the work can be done from anywhere as well. I've worked in LA since 1990 as a sound designer, sound supervisor, rerecording mixer, ADR mixer, foley mixer, editor and yes, composer; but it can still be difficult at times. Your contacts are your best source, but people come and go so much in this business that many of those contacts become building contractors in Texas, or start a surf shop in the Carribean 

So building contacts, especially if you work independently, is key. Yes, a studio gig or TV series is great and many you work there stop building contacts, but there are downsides. The hours can be excessive- while supervising the Rugrats for Nickelodeon I was working 70-90 hours a week/ 7 days and loving it, but 10 years went by in what felt like 4 months (it's christmas again?!?) and the only thing that improved in my life was my bank account. Yes, I learned a lot, but I could have learned just as much and had other worthwhile things in my life.

Nowadays I work as an independent. Specifically because I like the flexibility and I'm finding the downtime is crucial. Two weeks ago I was recording ADR at Todd AO Hollywood for an Amazon show called "Mozart in the Jungle". A friend who supervises the show admitted to me he still does 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, salary with no overtime. Wow. At least they use to pay us for our overtime back in the day. In that one day of ADR I think my pay was half a week salary for him, so he's still doing all the work, just without the pay bump to show for it.

So back to contacts. There are people you know, which you should already have a list of, that have some connection to the industry or planning to be. That list can be short, but if you want it to grow start by deciding which field. In my career I've done large concert sound and still work live sound events from time to time. Deciding on post production was a choice, partically to save my ears from loud concert sound work, but also because I loved working to picture, and still do. Deciding on game, TV, or film sound can help you focus on your next step.

Which is doing projects below your normal pay to build your contacts, and hopefully your reel. Yes, many projects will not make the reel, but if it builds just one contact, that can be all you need out of it. Most of the series I've been on have been because of one or two contacts. They liked my attitude and work ethic on a low budget project we did years before and now needs a reliable sound guy, or have mentioned me to a producer they are working with. Make the most out of every oppertunity by being upbeat and positive when they call. Tell them you want to meet and talk about the project, don't even mention money until you've had that meeting and talked more about the project. As others have mentioned, it's about solidifying the repore with the contact, not necessarily getting the gig, that is the most important thing. 

Otherwise you miss out on a contact who's project might not work for you, but could have others in the wings. Many successsful producers nowadays have a few shows going at once (less people doing more of the work) so offering to pitch in on a day (or as a composer to send a custom sample) could pay off ten fold. If they see you are trustworthy and reliable and smaller things, they start to give you bigger and bigger things until they tell you "you're my guy!"- and your off and running for a few months or a few years (I think Rugrats went 10 years).

This is true for live sound, production sound, post-production, game sound, orchestral recordings, composing studios, the list goes on. They are all looking for a reliable guy that knows all the technical stuff, has a good ear, and gets to the job early. Most jobs with clients have to be set up and checked before they walk in, and tested the day before if you're unsure. No one will ever complain if your ensuring a good session and do it off the clock. But it makes that contact a "you're my guy" one. When composing it can have a lot more to do with people's personal tastes, and what they feel is right for the project. But in post sound, it becomes more about relationships and reliability more than anything else.


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## GtrString (Oct 28, 2017)

I think you'll eventually find a good spot with some good people, but I think your rant is pretty accurate. I cant really advice you as I don't make a full living off of music, but I have friends that does and can offer some observations.

Competition doesn't work - collaboration does. Try to hook up with good people, and see if you can help each other out in some ways. Try to build a "team".

In this internet age, it matters less and less where you live. Actually, it's great to live off the grid, if it cuts the rent down to manageble, and nature is always healthy and inspiring in the long run. That way you'll have the funds to take a trip once in a while. And you can build a place where others can visit in the long run. In a sense, this means it also matters more and more where you live, but not in the way that people often think.

Learning doesn't stop with school, today it is lifelong. Continue to take part in educational activities, and use it partly to network and create contacts. If you feel over-educated (many are), spend it to educate others. Build a concept for a youtube channel, start a local class ect. Teaching is a great way to keep learning.

It's not about getting a job, it's more about having something to give (as a human being, a place people wants to hang, a great studio, specialized skills, a service ect.). The more you have, the more you get. Show the world what you already got.

Do what you love, not what you think others want. They don't buy the thing, they buy the relationship. Everyone loves to support authentic people who are passionate and cares about other people. Make the career about more than great music, make it about living a better life.

So where do you start.. guess my point is start with people. Talk, make friends, team up, give, have fun. Right now, as you were, where you are.

Imo, fwiw, ect.


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## bryla (Oct 28, 2017)

Jaap said:


> Depends on what you want to do exactly. I just moved to the most eastern part of the Netherlands, surrounded by 12 cows, 4 chickens, some farmers up ahead on the road, a church and 20 min from a supermarket, all in all not the most advanced networking location  and yet I am still able to live from my music. Be smart if you don't want to move and do all the things you mention, but be sure to go to conferences or industry related events to build up the network, but for sure LA is not the only place where you have to be.


And I work a lot for a composer in the eastern part of the Netherlands! I work over the internet and once in a while I travel to where I need to be. I really would like to encourage people starting out to grow in their local market instead of heading of to LA without knowing what they actually really like to do.


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