# Piano w/strings....aww... help.



## thov72 (Dec 31, 2016)

So the last few pieces I posted here were folk-y, but since I´ve bought SCS/SSB this year I am focusing more on orchestral. Wrote this piece in Notion and then tried out SCS with it. I always wrestle with string sounds and it never ever sounds as good as other people´s. Especially in this piece I am very dissatisfied. Maybe it wasn´t a good idea to let the Vl1,Vl2, Vla play unison later in this piece....
I could really need some good advice here. 
Hope you still enjoy the piece, though.


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## Rob (Dec 31, 2016)

Problem here is the writing imo... both of the piece itself, which is very repetitive and predictable, and of the accompaning strings. With such a simple harmonic structure you should at least write some good string lines to make for some variation. Slow moving lines through the chords, some counterpoint between the strings sections etc. Then you can start thinking in terms of rendering, cc curves and so on... just my opinion of course, hope you don't feel offended


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 31, 2016)

Rob said:


> Problem here is the writing imo... both of the piece itself, which is very repetitive and predictable, and of the accompaning strings. With such a simple harmonic structure you should at least write some good string lines to make for some variation. Slow moving lines through the chords, some counterpoint between the strings sections etc. Then you can start thinking in terms of rendering, cc curves and so on... just my opinion of course, hope you don't feel offended



Rob has good points, you could use more animation in your string writing (don't forget also that panning is your friend here, and can sometimes make a big difference when you want to create and keep interest in your part writing...unless you're a stickler for keeping traditional orchestral placement).

But there's good here, the piano has a good tone imo, and this certainly sounds as though it could turn into something interesting. If you're looking to make this as expressive of your style as possible, you might (well, first try to look inside and find out exactly what style is yours, then) try to get reeeeallly familiar with the automation/ccs in your libraries. There's just so much you could do to this piece through the above tools, if you're looking to do so, of course.


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## thov72 (Dec 31, 2016)

Thank you, Rob and Parsifal for taking the time to listen to my piece. I realise now that my intention with it was too simplistic. I did want to keep the string part simple and not delve deep into the realms of harmony and counterpoint with it, rather keep it a bit a "pop"-style piece . I guess I have to rethink that and spend more time with working on different string parts ---- then I´ll see what to do with all the automation and ccs...


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 31, 2016)

thov72 said:


> Thank you, Rob and Parsifal for taking the time to listen to my piece. I realise now that my intention with it was too simplistic. I did want to keep the string part simple and not delve deep into the realms of harmony and counterpoint with it, rather keep it a bit a "pop"-style piece . I guess I have to rethink that and spend more time with working on different string parts ---- then I´ll see what to do with all the automation and ccs...



Nothing wrong with that intention at all. Sounds to me as though you have a good idea of you want, thus I'm confident you'll get there.


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## Baron Greuner (Dec 31, 2016)

I like the idea of the piece, but where is the bottom end? Perhaps you didn't want any bottom end so that would be OK. Maybe the piano is the bottom end?

Nothing wrong at all with being minimal and repetitive but like the two others have mentioned, you need to get some movement underneath it all, like say counterpoint for example. Also, maybe not a good idea to play in chords with a long type of non legato patch just as a thought. The piano figure is a sort of Einaudi deal and it becomes a little bit samey after several bars. At the very end you try to bring in some bottom end, which is a good idea.
The whole idea is good, you just need to get practicing with these two libraries because they sound good straight out of the box.

Here's a repetitive track that I'm working on.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 31, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


>




Hey, cool! I'm wondering if perhaps a key change toward the end might inspire you further.


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## Baron Greuner (Dec 31, 2016)

Good point to make Parsifal because it might help Thov72. Key changes for library work can be a bit of a no no at times. I love modulation and key changes, but unfortunately the publishers aren't quite so keen.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 31, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> Good point to make Parsifal because it might help Thov72. Key changes for library work can be a bit of a no no at times. I love modulation and key changes, but unfortunately the publishers aren't quite so keen.



I feel your pain. Commissions most often mean write inside the lines. But I do hope it helps Thov.


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## Baron Greuner (Dec 31, 2016)

Exactly. Another thing Thov, when you're getting into the string lines (could be woodwind, brass ect too), try to imagine the strings players actually playing it. Try to see a string section with their bows moving and the players swaying and moving as they do in real life. If it's too difficult to imagine, then there's a good chance what any off us have written is probably unplayable, although most good string players could play just about anything us hackers could write to be fair.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 31, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> Exactly. Another thing Thov, when you're getting into the string lines (could be woodwind, brass ect too), try to imagine the strings players actually playing it. Try to see a string section with their bows moving and the players swaying and moving as they do in real life. If it's too difficult to imagine, then there's a good chance what any off us have written is probably unplayable, although most good string players could play just about anything us hackers could write to be fair.



I come originally from a heavy rock thing, and when I started up with Finale Wordpad I thought I had everything down in the string department. Then I watched Mahler's Symphony no. 3, conducted by Bernstein, and felt unbelievably stupid just watching the bow changes/movements. It was then I realized, with a totally necessary







that I had TONS to learn about writing for...heck, not just strings, but EVERYTHING lol!

I still do.


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## LamaRose (Dec 31, 2016)

Baron makes some good points. Some legato cello(s) underneath would be perfect for some weight and counterpoint. Nothing busy... just fluid wavelike lines. 

Your intro had me thinking chamber music, and then it digressed. Chamber can be a good style to cut your teeth with because it doesn't necessary need, or want, a lot of dynamics or vibrato.

With that said, most string sections/elements will require you to become really proficient massaging dynamics to gain that _movement_ and life... most often CC1 & CC11 like your modulation wheel/slider and expression pedal. There are lots of great videos demonstrating these techniques. Colin O'malley from 8Dio and Alex Wallbank of Cinematic Strings can help you here.


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## thov72 (Dec 31, 2016)

LamaRose, Baron, thanks! With all of these comments I am rethinking the piece... and yes, I wanted the piano to be the bottom end. Maybe not bottomy enough.
Funny that you mentioned Einaudi. I didn´t want this to sound like Einaudi. I have another piece that I am working on, that´s a lot more in that ballpark. I´ll post it so maybe you get a bit more of a notion of the style I´m using ---and maybe see more of the difficulties I have


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## Baron Greuner (Dec 31, 2016)

Left hand's too loud. And it's that sound of you maybe playing chords with the strings right? Could be a nice track if you iron out sample land issues. Try and keep tracks shorter, unless you are modulating or just simply going to a new section in the style of say Signori Einaudi in this instance.
It's just a bit of practice needed with libraries. It's this that's causing you difficulties I would suggest. I will put up some tracks in the way I use strings to get movement. Everyone is different of course and some of the buckeroos round here do this demonstration stuff for money if you can believe that. 

Simple strings Rhythm under main ostinato theme. Nothing mixed or balanced or eq'd.


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## Daryl (Dec 31, 2016)

Here is a link that might help you when it comes to deciding the balance between the Strings/Piano and ambience. Ignore the fact that it's not samples. Listen to the relationship between the elements. And if you think it's sh*t, just take no notice..!


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## WhiteNoiz (Dec 31, 2016)

Your tempo/timing jumps around like crazy. Was that conscious or did you just play it in without adjusting or something? It makes me a bit uneasy if I pay attention to it.


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## thov72 (Dec 31, 2016)

thanks to everyone, sorryI cannot comment right now, I have visitors....I´ll write tomorrow...


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## WhiteNoiz (Jan 1, 2017)

Anyway, here's my take on it:
https://clyp.it/ir3jrlo2?token=4d6e04c768cf422cbd81f5e86aff5d48

I recommend you also take a look at Christof's "The Robber" for which he provided the MIDI of the strings. It could be educational. There's also my own orchestrated version of that somewhere in there. I could send you the MIDIs of both if you want to take a look. Also, listen to some live orchestra of pieces you want to emulate and try to analyze and internalise what's going on (orchestration, playing, dynamics...). It makes a big difference.

Finally, maybe I was a bit too hard on the timing critique. It's not THAT bad and it's even less apparent in the "dressed" version. (I'm still a bit bothered by it, but by just a tinny-tiny bit)


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## thov72 (Jan 1, 2017)

Thank you Daryl, for this link and Baron for the examples...woo, WhiteNoiz, cool. Nice ideas. Btw. I don´t play the piano so I usually draw in/step enter all the notes. Then humanize it. Might have overdone the tempo track thing....  . I will add some more strings but I don´t want to drown the piano. Atm I just can´t listen to this piece anymore, I´ll work on some solo piano in Finale and then go back to my DAW and this piece. Midi for strings is EXACTLY what I need. I absolutely need midi data to see how it was massaged to make the strings sound good. Any more recommendations??


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## thov72 (Jan 1, 2017)

I really have to say I am overwhelmed by the help I am getting here. You´re great bunch o´fellas!!


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## WhiteNoiz (Jan 2, 2017)

Well, you could omit the brass or do whatever you want. I had a couple more ideas I didn't include. How busy you'll make it and all is up to your vision. I sent you the MIDI pack. Have fun.


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## Baron Greuner (Jan 7, 2017)

thov72 said:


> LamaRose, Baron, thanks! [/MEDIA]



Finished that track for you. I'll leave it up for a while.


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