# What should composers know about writing for Trumpet?



## Lea1229 (Sep 23, 2020)

Hi all, I'm wondering what common mistakes composers make in writing for this instrument, and some suggestions for how one should go about learning to write idiomatically for it. Thanks in advance for sharing your expertise!


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## Rodney Money (Sep 23, 2020)

Oh! Let’s see what others say first.


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 23, 2020)

I am not an expert on trumpet (Rodney is!), but here are some tidbits I've picked up along the way. Many of these suggestions can be applied to any wind instrument...

One common pitfall is not leaving enough rests in a phrase for the player for take a breath.
It's important to understand the range of the instrument - where the 'sweet spot' is and where it starts to sound 'pinched' in the high register, and 'dull' in the low register. 
Trumpet is a powerful instrument. A single trumpet at high dynamic can project over the entire orchestra.
Writing long passages at a high dynamic is going to wear out the player. Not just breathing, but their 'chops' (at least that's what my trombone-playing son calls it) - where the lip muscles get strained after prolonged playing and it is harder to render the notes.
Hope this is helpful. Rodney, please correct me if anything I said is inaccurate! Looking forward to hearing your advice. I'm sure I will learn something.


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## chillbot (Sep 23, 2020)

These feels like it should be one of those threads where someone asks "hey what's a good guitar sample library" and someone inevitably responds "go buy a guitar and play it!" except the opposite.


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## JohnG (Sep 23, 2020)

I think a lot of people forget two things about trumpets:

1. They can play softly and surprisingly low (ok maybe that's two); and

2. They are surprisingly nimble.

My initial look at the brass family was Haydn symphonies. If you also went through those you will remember how simple the brass lines are. No surprise, as he never (as far as I remember) had access to valved brass instruments, so they had to change crooks on FHNs and trumpets to change keys.

Anyway, look at be-bop or Alan Silvestri's "Back to the Future" or maybe J. Williams (lots of scores available) just to be reminded how amazingly nimble the trumpet and the rest of the brass are today.


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## b_elliott (Sep 23, 2020)

Wow you are getting such good material from each of the posters above.

If I may add two listening refs for big band trumpet writing and jazz rock:

Big Band: The music for Count Basie's Atomic Basie was arranged by a trumpeter Neil Hefti. These are a gold standard for big band and trpts. Note the use of mutes at the start.



Separately I'd listen to how Frank Zappa uses trumpets in Big Swifty. These are A-list players; the results match with what the prior members lay out how to score for this instrument.


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## JT (Sep 23, 2020)

And if you're writing for big band, rock or pop, and you've got you lead trumpet playing in the stratosphere, on the last note of the piece let that trumpet hang over a little bit.


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## Lea1229 (Sep 23, 2020)

chillbot said:


> These feels like it should be one of those threads where someone asks "hey what's a good guitar sample library" and someone inevitably responds "go buy a guitar and play it!" except the opposite.


...pretty on point. I actually went out and rented a trumpet today, ha.


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## Lea1229 (Sep 23, 2020)

Wow, what a wealth of information from everyone -Many thanks! ...I have a lot of studying/listening to do... & looking forward to it.


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## Lea1229 (Sep 23, 2020)

[QUOTE="Stephen Limbaugh, post: 4646660, member: 
The string section can be playing wacky/out-of-tune scratchy nonsense, and conductors will use that as an opportunity to tell the trumpet section they are doing something wrong. 
[/QUOTE]

Hehe... As a string player - sorry bout that!


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## dcoscina (Sep 23, 2020)

Bah, trumpets.... loud, screaming "look at me" brass instruments...
-former grouchy trombone player who sat in front of the trumpet section in concert bands and jazz orchestras for waayy to many years

LOL

(seriously though, I much prefer the trumpet's low and mid range).


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## JT (Sep 23, 2020)

Watching is so much better than explaining the fire that a gifted lead trumpet player can create. 
The solo trumpet comes in around the 2:00 mark.


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## AlexRuger (Sep 23, 2020)

Don't blast your mod wheel. Even if you write properly in terms of pauses for breath, you'll wear out of your players -- the louder they play, the longer and more frequent breaks they'll require. I hardly bring the mod wheel above ~75 with CineBrass, and the brass in my mockups is far and away the thing I get the most compliments about regarding realism. Compliments should primarily go to Cinesamples, but writing with _actual _brass-ish dynamics and phrasing can really go a long way to sell it.

Also, use the low and mid range of the instrument more. It's a fantastically versatile instrument, but too many composers just explore the high range. For instance, interlocking a middle-of-the-keyboard chord with the trombones and french horns can add a good deal more clarity to what might otherwise be a muddy voicing if played sans trumpets. 

Also also, the low pedal tones are fucking awesome, especially double and triple tongued. John Williams does a decent amount of that in the Star Wars sequel films.

Lastly, trumpet blends ridiculously well with most woodwinds and tuned percussion. Try doubling trumpet shorts (on the lower, quiet side) with marimba, or doubling a clarinet or oboe melody with its more lyrical range.


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## dcoscina (Sep 23, 2020)

I like doubling trumpets in their mid range with horns. It fortifies the line that I'm giving them.


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 23, 2020)

A lot of talk about the lower range on this thread... even that Oh Holy Night example was in the lower range. What a nice full sound. I need to explore that more.


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## Romy Schmidt (Sep 23, 2020)

Lea1229 said:


> Hi all, I'm wondering what common mistakes composers make in writing for this instrument, and some suggestions for how one should go about learning to write idiomatically for it. Thanks in advance for sharing your expertise!



Find a trumpet player and work together for a while. It doesn't have to be a professional player.


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## Bluemount Score (Sep 24, 2020)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> You can make horsey noises.


*The* most important point!

Very useful information in this thread!!


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 24, 2020)

Gene Pool said:


> • In an orchestral setting, brass on the whole are effective in inverse proportion to their use.




I love J.P. but this was the primary issue with Solo: A Starwars Story... probably the actual movie causing the score to have this issue, but the entire experience becomes numbing because of the brass for 90% of the movie filled with action.


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## Rodney Money (Sep 24, 2020)

AlexRuger said:


> Also also, the low pedal tones are fucking awesome, especially double and triple tongued. John Williams does a decent amount of that in the Star Wars sequel films.


Do you mean “low range” instead of “pedal tones?” The true pedal tones on a trumpet are grotesque compared to other brass instruments.


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## tonaliszt (Sep 24, 2020)

Gene Pool said:


> The first video exemplifies the trumpet's “classic” nature. (Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, etc.). Nakariakov on _Carnival of Venice_. (His rendition of the compound lines section begins at 6:42 if you're looking for that part specifically.)


I got to see him play this live last year! Absolutely one of the most incredible players!


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## goalie composer (Sep 24, 2020)

Not sure if this is already on your radar but, if not, hopefully it sheds some light


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## AlexRuger (Sep 24, 2020)

Rodney Money said:


> Do you mean “low range” instead of “pedal tones?” The true pedal tones on a trumpet are grotesque compared to other brass instruments.


Yeah I suppose I just mean the low range, not actual pedal tones.


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## Lea1229 (Sep 24, 2020)

goalie composer said:


> Not sure if this is already on your radar but, if not, hopefully it sheds some light



It does! That ominous music at the opening though...


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## Saxer (Sep 30, 2020)

For section writing in pop/bigband it's a very good habit to double high trumpet lead lines one octave below (either by trumpets or other brass or wind instruments). Alone up there they are loud but can sound thin and lost.


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## I like music (Oct 9, 2020)

May someone help me understand vibrato on trumpet please? I mean idiomatically - in brass band (which I've been listening to more recently) in UK, I notice a very different type of vibrato. Especially in the cornets etc so I'm curious as to whether this is just an idiom thing, or whether there are other considerations? Seems like a very fast vibrato, not particularly deep.

Any resources on this?


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## shropshirelad (Oct 9, 2020)

My son (15) studies classical & jazz Trumpet at a UK music school. He's also a member of the National Youth Brass Band of Great Britain. He always comes back from courses with a very 'flowery' vibrato which he then has to 'unlearn' although he's becoming pretty adept at turning it on and off.


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## I like music (Oct 9, 2020)

shropshirelad said:


> My son (15) studies classical & jazz Trumpet at a UK music school. He's also a member of the National Youth Brass Band of Great Britain. He always comes back from courses with a very 'flowery' vibrato which he then has to 'unlearn' although he's becoming pretty adept at turning it on and off.



Pretty interesting. This is the kind of thing I imagine? Maurice Murphy here. PS not sure if we've talked on this board before, but I think we have. You're in Shropshire?


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## robcs (Oct 9, 2020)

I like music said:


> May someone help me understand vibrato on trumpet please? I mean idiomatically - in brass band (which I've been listening to more recently) in UK, I notice a very different type of vibrato. Especially in the cornets etc so I'm curious as to whether this is just an idiom thing, or whether there are other considerations? Seems like a very fast vibrato, not particularly deep.
> 
> Any resources on this?



it comes down to the fact that there isn’t a ‘trumpet vibrato’, there are three.

BBB (British Brass Band) players tend to favour what’s called ‘hand vibrato’ which involves moving the instrument fractionally back and forth using finger pressure. There seems to be a direct correlation between age and distance travelled: the older the player, the more they look like a lost trombone player, and produce that rather maudlin warbling effect.

Orchestral players tend to prefer either jaw or breath vibrato. In jaw vibrato, you wobble the jaw slightly. In breath vibrato, you use your diaphragm to vary airspeed (the same technique flute players use).

all joking about ageing brass band players aside, the three techniques cause very different mechanical changes, so they do sound very different.

bear in mind also that brass band players only play cornet, and orchestral players almost never play cornet (there’s some 19th century repertoire that calls for it, but it’s very rare). So the warbling vib tends to be exclusively in brass bands and British wind bands (which often use cornets rather than trumpets).

the ‘fun’ comes when you have a trumpet player who started out on cornet - That hand vib is a hard habit to kick (it still creeps into my playing from time to time)


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## shropshirelad (Oct 9, 2020)

I like music said:


> PS not sure if we've talked on this board before, but I think we have. You're in Shropshire?


Yes, we have indeed talked before and I seem to recall that we both enjoy views or The Wrekin.


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## I like music (Oct 9, 2020)

robcs said:


> it comes down to the fact that there isn’t a ‘trumpet vibrato’, there are three.
> 
> BBB (British Brass Band) players tend to favour what’s called ‘hand vibrato’ which involves moving the instrument fractionally back and forth using finger pressure. There seems to be a direct correlation between age and distance travelled: the older the player, the more they look like a lost trombone player, and produce that rather maudlin warbling effect.
> 
> ...


This is some top notch information, thank you! I expect the jaw vs breath vibrato sounds the same? Is it a preference thing, or is it better to deploy one e.g highers dynamics might mean breath vibrato is harder etc (just guessing!)?


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## Rodney Money (Oct 9, 2020)

robcs said:


> it comes down to the fact that there isn’t a ‘trumpet vibrato’, there are three.
> 
> BBB (British Brass Band) players tend to favour what’s called ‘hand vibrato’ which involves moving the instrument fractionally back and forth using finger pressure. There seems to be a direct correlation between age and distance travelled: the older the player, the more they look like a lost trombone player, and produce that rather maudlin warbling effect.
> 
> ...


Some slight corrections in my own personal experiences, experienced Brass Bands use jaw vibrato but grossly overused it like too much sugar and creme destroying the flavor of the coffee. Their overbearing use of it ceases to sound like expression and starts sounding more like desperation, “Please love me, please love me! PLEASE!” Orchestral players and dare I say Americans use vibrato more tastefully on the end of legato passages’ longer notes. Hand vibrato on the valves comes from the sound of the big band days and nothing makes you sound like “old man tone” faster than using it. It should be banned. I’ve invented another type of vibrato that is from my throat. It makes my tone sound voice-like and unique. I don’t sound like any other player and other trumpet and cornet players cannot tell my background or influence because of it. Here’s a clip taken just with my iPhone in a large church:


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## Rodney Money (Oct 10, 2020)

A few years ago I was commissioned to compose a trumpet concerto for soloist and electronic fixed media that was premiered just this past March during the pandemic. I will share some of the score and some personal thoughts concerning writing for the trumpet. This is page 1 that introduces the main theme of the concerto. The theme to measure 22 is in the range that produces the most warmth with absolutely no strain to the sound. Each slur is purposely chosen not for the location of phrases but for actual articulation. The difference between tonguing between notes and slurring can make a world of difference. In measure 14, I placed a ghost grace-note that tells the performer to allow the natural harmonic to speak during the slur avoiding a clean, smooth legato making the phrase sound more expressive instead. I invented that written articulation. Although mutes do produce softer dynamics, mutes are primary used to change the timbre instead.


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## Rodney Money (Oct 10, 2020)

This part of the concerto gives celebration to the humble evolution of brass instruments featuring just the notes found on a Bb Bugle without valves. This bugle cadenza features 6 bugle calls in 1 showing the ease of intervals of 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, and 6ths with no issues whatsoever while still sounding impressive.


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## Rodney Money (Oct 10, 2020)

This page shows a plethora of articulations the trumpet can execute including: flutter-tongue, rips, multiple-tongued passages, trills, short accented marcatos, legato slurs, and runs using chromatics.


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## AllanH (Oct 10, 2020)

Regarding vibrato in an orchestral context: I have seen instructions where only the lead player uses vibrato and the rest of the section plays without vibrato. I don't recall ever seeing this in the days where I played in a symphonic orchestra, so maybe these are new instruction. That being said, having three trumpets with vibrato would probably sound overwhelming, if not "wrong", in almost any context.


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## Rodney Money (Oct 10, 2020)

Finally, these 2 pages highlight some of the techniques found within the finale. Notice also that trumpet needs periods of rest and places to breathe. It starts with a melodic melody embellished with bugle phrases and scaled runs. Also noticed that this melodic section features the full 3 octave bread and butter range from low C to high C. The new section starts the fanfare that uses double and triple tongued passages and all of the runs, although looking complex, are simple chromatics. The fanfare can be used with a piccolo trumpet with 4 valves if so desired for that particular timbre. The use of a piccolo trumpet is not to play high notes easier but for that particular light flutelike timbre and that the high notes are easier to play in tune. The fanfare looks difficult but the idiomatic writing allows for any performer with the talents of a junior or senior music major to have the abilities to perform the piece. The last little bit on the 2nd page is the original theme of the concerto but played higher like a voice from the past.


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## I like music (Oct 12, 2020)

@Rodney Money - thanks so much for this. It'll take me weeks to get through this material (why did I choose sports over music as a child ... ?) but it looks like there's great info here that I can try to digest.

Regarding vibrato, could someone please tell me if the vibrato I'm hearing here is considered subtle, or is it perhaps just how the trumpet breathes at that dynamic etc? It seems to have a fairly fast and faint vibrato. Would love to know if this is the hand vibrato people have talked about, albiet a toned down version. Jerry Goldsmith's Rambo theme.


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