# When writing for strings do I write chords for each instrument , or just one or two notes per instrument?



## Greeno (Jun 14, 2021)

Hi 

This is the only thing bugging me at the moment. I think this is a simple question?

So when I write my string arrangements, do I/can I write with full chords for each string instrument or should I try to avoid that and go with using one or two notes played per instrument? 

I am aware that it could get muddy but also am looking for a full sound, what is the general approach? I understand that this is subjective so obviously if I was going to write something close, intimate and simpler...I would use less strings but I my question is about writing for melodic/epic/emotional full strings melodies...say for example like the passages in the early part of Macrotus by Zimmer and Newton-Howard?

Not looking for a hard and fast rule as I appreciate that there may not be one but there may be some general approach.

any help much appreciated!

Thanks

Greens


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## Greeno (Jun 14, 2021)

the above question is based upon all strings being used or at least most of them at the same time.


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## Double Helix (Jun 14, 2021)

This might seem to be a bit off-topic, but back in the day when I was playing a Mellotron live, I found that playing single string lines (usually in octaves) sounded more "authentic" (for the instrument's limitations). That being said, the other musicians in our band were filliing out the rest of the chord(s).
Playing chords is certainly okay, but having *movement within the cluster might more closely resemble the way an arranger would set it down.

But to your question, I'd say that the same technique would apply with our digitally sampled libraries. I think you can achieve the full sound you're aiming for by splitting the instruments: basses & celli playing the root, violas & violins fleshing out the harmonic structure.
Of course this is not a hard and fast "rule" (and it takes a bit of planning), but take fifteen minutes and listen to some Schubert and Tchaikovsky (masters of orchestration, imo) to get an idea of this approach. Beethoven's Razumovsky quartets are famous illustrations of "movement," and might well be easier to hear than with an eighty-piece orchestra: Certainly you would not have to "analyze"; just listen to the individual parts.

VI-Control is chock full of classically trained arrangers & composers, so chances are that you will get a great deal meaningful input.

* fast forward to about 0:40 as an example of this "internal movement"


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## KEM (Jun 14, 2021)

Don’t do full chords with each stringed instrument, that amount of divisi would actually just end up sounding thin and muddy at the same time. If you want a really full, big sound try using the basses and celli in octaves and divide the celli with the 5th of the chord right above, I personally don’t really do any divisi with the viola since they have the smallest number of players so I want them to sound as full as possible, I’d typically double the top violin line an octave lower on the viola or just play chord tones (usually the root or 3rd), and then the first violin I’ll usually have playing the tonics of the chords or whatever I want to really shine in the top register, and then the second violins I’ll usually double the chord tones that the celli or violas are playing, I usually always double the root the most, then the 5th the second most, and the 3rd and any extensions I’m using will only be voiced once or maybe doubled once. 

Another trick I like to do that adds movement but still keeps the harmonic progressions really solid is to do a slow back and forth legato motion between the tonic and the 3rd of the chord on the violas or sometimes the celli, it’s simple but I think it adds a lot and I’ve heard that technique used in a lot of film scores.

Hopefully that helps you in some way, keep in mind I’m just a stupid kid on the internet, but I’ve studied a bit of orchestration and that’s how I usually do it and I like how it sounds so take that as you will.


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## Snarf (Jun 14, 2021)

Greeno said:


> Not looking for a hard and fast rule as I appreciate that there may not be one but there may be some general approach.


In general, you do not necessarily need a lot of notes to get a 'full' sound. Less can be enough, it depends on what sound you want. That said, I have seen a beginner tendency to 'over-orchestrate' by playing all the notes in a chord with a full ensemble patch (like, from the bottom to the top of the piano - sometimes not taking lower interval limits into consideration).


As an example of how little you can need, check out how sparse the writing is here sometimes (synthesia version so you can see the voicings better).





As an alternative example of 'thick' string arranging, check out the soft divisi here:





Although, these examples are from a more traditional concert 'world' than the HZ/JNH piece you referenced, I think you can still learn a lot of knowledge you can apply in your own writing (even for DAW based composing).


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## Snarf (Jun 14, 2021)

While typing, I remembered I actually have some excerpts from the Batman Begins concert score.

Here's a few bars from the cue 'Meeting Rachel' (0:55):






You could try mocking that up as a start 🙂


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## KEM (Jun 14, 2021)

Snarf said:


> While typing, I remembered I actually have some excerpts from the Batman Begins concert score.
> 
> Here's a few bars from the cue 'Meeting Rachel' (0:55):
> 
> ...


Do you have Corynorhinus (Surveying the Ruins)? I actually started mocking that up yesterday and I’m doing it all by ear and watching piano covers and orchestrating those out, would be great to have the actually scores!!


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## musicalweather (Jun 14, 2021)

I think KEM's general rules are excellent. Gonna copy those down for myself! 

I delved into all of this last summer and found some nifty on-line resources:


A short but invaluable summary of different voicing/doubling techniques
Another summary of chord voicing techniques, with audio examples
Some enlightening discussion about four-part writing

Hope this helps!


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## KEM (Jun 14, 2021)

musicalweather said:


> I think KEM's general rules are excellent. Gonna copy those down for myself!
> 
> I delved into all of this last summer and found some nifty on-line resources:
> 
> ...


Thank you! I’m always hesitant to give any sort of advice because I always question if I actually know what I’m talking about or if I just make everything up in my head and somehow convince myself that I know what I’m talking about lol

Orchestration is such an immense topic and really depends on the context and the intention of the music, not to mention we all have different tastes as to what we like, but that Zimmer Batman sound is something I’ve been chasing ever since I’ve started, after all The Dark Knight is the sole reason I even decided to pursue film scoring, and these are the techniques I’ve been using to try and achieve that specific sound.


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## mybadmemory (Jun 14, 2021)

Usually:

* No more than five notes (one per section) that together becomes the full harmony (melody plus chords plus bass notes)

* A single instrument can’t play more than or two notes at a time.

* A section can be split into multiple smaller sections, but this is the exception rather than the norm.

* Try to make each sections part be somewhat of a melody in itself.

* Try not to change all parts (melody, chord notes, and bass lines) at once, but have them change at interlocking intervals.

* Don’t play block chords. Spread the notes out much further than you would on a piano.

* Violins 1 and 2 are nice to play in octaves. Or violins and violas. And cello and bass as well.

* Look at good string arrangements as sheet music, midi files, or as piano rolls on YouTube for inspiration.


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## Greeno (Jun 15, 2021)

Thanks everyone for this input, there's lots for me to read and consider, it has been very helpful.
Incidentally I had been searching for some videos that focussed in on it but didn't quite find what I was looking for.. I then found a JXL vid on writing strings which has also been helpful.

Much appreciated, great community!


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## jazzman7 (Jun 15, 2021)

Snarf said:


> In general, you do not necessarily need a lot of notes to get a 'full' sound. Less can be enough, it depends on what sound you want. That said, I have seen a beginner tendency to 'over-orchestrate' by playing all the notes in a chord with a full ensemble patch (like, from the bottom to the top of the piano - sometimes not taking lower interval limits into consideration).
> 
> 
> As an example of how little you can need, check out how sparse the writing is here sometimes (synthesia version so you can see the voicings better).
> ...



Always loved this. Big Vaughan Williams fan from way back. The 5th is only one of the many reasons!


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## vinnie2k (Jun 15, 2021)

This made me think: of course we'd want to write in the digital world the way composers write for real orchestras: one line per instrument, not too many divisions because you've got a fixed number of players, etc.

Or do we? I would think most of us would never get their music played by a real orchestra, so why not through those rules out of the window and start from a blank slate. Would that open new possibilities?


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## mybadmemory (Jun 15, 2021)

vinnie2k said:


> This made me think: of course we'd want to write in the digital world the way composers write for real orchestras: one line per instrument, not too many divisions because you've got a fixed number of players, etc.
> 
> Or do we? I would think most of us would never get their music played by a real orchestra, so why not through those rules out of the window and start from a blank slate. Would that open new possibilities?


Of course you can! And many people do. It’s just that… not knowing about how they actually play often results in a sound that doesn’t at all sound like a real string section but a synth. Which is of course fine if that’s what you want. But if you want it to sound real, you kind of have to know at least parts of how real strings play before you start breaking those rules.


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## KEM (Jun 16, 2021)

vinnie2k said:


> This made me think: of course we'd want to write in the digital world the way composers write for real orchestras: one line per instrument, not too many divisions because you've got a fixed number of players, etc.
> 
> Or do we? I would think most of us would never get their music played by a real orchestra, so why not through those rules out of the window and start from a blank slate. Would that open new possibilities?


In some cases, yes. In some cases, no. For example, you could have a horn or flute line that goes for as long as you want without having to worry about a real person taking a breath, and that can sound cool and most people wouldn’t really think anything of it. But if you decided to have every instrument in the string section playing full triads like OP asked about that would just sound bad, the tonality would be completely unbalanced and it would sound like mud.

For a long time I thought that having more options and more freedom would make me more creative but then I started hearing people say “limitations breed creativity” and I don’t think there could be a more true statement, if you reduce your palette you’ll find yourself discovering new ways to make use with what you’ve got. That’s why the masters of orchestration that we all study and look up to we’re so good, they only had a set number of players, so if they wanted a huge sound they couldn’t just add twice the amount of players or double track the orchestra, they had to figure out how to make a normal sized section sound big, and they did!


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## zhpub (Jun 16, 2021)

Sound-on-Sound had a 9 part series on orchestration that I have just started reading and your question reminds me of it. Check it out: The Sampled Orchestra: Part 1.


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## Double Helix (Jun 16, 2021)

This thread explains how Rohan De Livera used multiple solo instruments (in this case SWAM) to create virtual sections (obviously, one cannot write chords/triads with solo instruments)
It was a painstaking process, but read through his approach and listen to the result.
(Thought this might be helpful to the OP and anyone else who might not have stumbled upon this thread)






My process for building realistic instrumental sections with SWAM and Sample Modeling instruments.


I haven’t seen much chat here on using SWAM or Sample Modeling instruments in sections, and thought i’d pipe in with my process for anyone who might find it interesting. Over the last couple of months I’ve evolved my orchestral template away from sampled instruments to modeled instruments by...




vi-control.net


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## Tralen (Jun 16, 2021)

I don't try planning the whole thing preemptively.

When we are testing Compressors, EQs, etc, we usually bypass the effect (or chain) and test back and forth if the result should be kept. When we start damaging the sound, we move back.

I do the same when building harmony. Add a line for an instrument, hear if it is bringing something positive, bypass it, and so on. When I can no longer improve, well, I have to call it done.


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