# New 16" Macbook Pro goes up to 64GB RAM!



## Richard Wilkinson

This seems like it could be the tipping point from main rig & portable rig, to a single unified system that's portable enough to travel. Waiting for some feedback & reviews, but it looks promising!


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## ridgero

+ 8 TB SSD


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## sherief83

Really nice, super close and almost there for me... I'm feeling the sweet or comfortable spot for us large template users is 128gb of Ram but, at the same time 8TB of SSD goodness, if we over do ram usage and overflows to page filing, plenty of space for that (provided you do separate partitions)...i'm thinking one more year or so and it'll be the perfect old generation Mac Pro replacement (even to replace the 2013 one)


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## NoamL

It's +$800 for an additional 48GB RAM to upgrade the specs from 16 to 64. Isn't that about 4 times the market price?

The way Apple is going - and with the rock solid reliability of VE Pro - I'd rather have a sturdy but affordable front end Mac and then a cheap but specs-loaded PC running VEP. Kind of dreading replacing my MBP when it comes to that because all of the options are so upscale. With no added bells or whistles this 16-incher prices at $2.8k. The model with 64gb RAM and 2TB SSD comes to $4.0k!

It is nice to have a LogicX composing solution all in one computer though. Especially for those who travel a lot this might be a very nice option.


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## sherief83

NoamL said:


> It's +$800 for an additional 48GB RAM to upgrade the specs from 16 to 64. Isn't that about 4 times the market price?



I don't think they're just charging you because of more Ram, it's just the fact that it's soldiered in and they're thinking its a different logic board with each upgrade. 

But also with every $800, $650 of it pays for Tim Cook's wine collection. things are expensive i'm sure you know.


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## mscp

My biggest concern is: how hot will it run when browsing with Safari? 

But seriously...I'll wait till I learn the cooling system is great, and I can use it as a main machine under heavy load without worrying that it will die on me within a year or two.


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## gsilbers

nice. with i9 , 8 core and 64gb of ram im sure it will blow most benchmarks out the wazooo. 

price is obviusuly an issue but there i has a bulky mac pro 5,1 not even close to this new macbook and it cost me about the same when i got it new. its been more than 10 years. if you pay this new macbook monthly in 4 years its about $122 per month. which is not that bad if you are making money with it, cuz im sure its not to only surf the web. the form factor also affects price. 
i might pull the trigger on this one. although the cooling might be an issue as well as fan noise.


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## mscp

gsilbers said:


> nice. with i9 , 8 core and 64gb of ram im sure it will blow most benchmarks out the wazooo.
> 
> price is obviusuly an issue but there i has a bulky mac pro 5,1 not even close to this new macbook and it cost me about the same when i got it new. its been more than 10 years. if you pay this new macbook monthly in 4 years its about $122 per month. which is not that bad if you are making money with it, cuz im sure its not to only surf the web. the form factor also affects price.
> i might pull the trigger on this one. although the cooling might be an issue as well as fan noise.



why pay for high specs if can’t handle the pressure? False advert. That’s why I’ll wait.


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## gsilbers

Phil81 said:


> why pay for high specs if can’t handle the pressure? False advert. That’s why I’ll wait.



that might be relative. for us fan noise is a killer thing. for video editors its a meh..


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## mscp

gsilbers said:


> that might be relative. for us fan noise is a killer thing. for video editors its a meh..



Fan noise is a bother, but worse is the CPU throttling issue. Why pay for something we can't take advantage of?


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## gsilbers

Phil81 said:


> Fan noise is a bother, but worse is the CPU throttling issue. Why pay for something we can't take advantage of?



i guess we'll have to see. some of the reviewers who got a hold of it didntmention amuch about that... or anything really.


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## mscp

gsilbers said:


> i guess we'll have to see. some of the reviewers who got a hold of it didntmention amuch about that... or anything really.



Yes. I bought (What could potentially be my last mac laptop) in 2018. I didn't see any amazing performance improvement over my 2015 one. The only thing I saw was my SSD replacement privileges taken away at a higher "inflationary" price.


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## Wunderhorn

"New 16" Macbook Pro goes up to 64GB RAM!"

Only! - I think for a professional tool this is a bit on the short side...


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## redlester

Before jumping in anyone, just make sure everything you rely on is compatible with Catalina...


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## Loïc D

redlester said:


> Before jumping in anyone, just make sure everything you rely on is compatible with Catalina...


Hmmm, it should be possible to restore a High Sierra image no ?
Using Time Machine.


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## Pier

It's certainly a step in the right direction but I'd be very cautious about buying one right now. Specially the 8 core model. Better wait a couple of months and see if Apple fucked up again or not.

The port situation is still unfortunate. The PC world is slowly moving to USB-C but even Apple still sells keyboards and mice with an USB-A cable for charging. It will take a couple more years for it to be popular enough to justify an USB-C only computer.

Also the touchbar has to go away or be optional. I think most people would rather invest the cost of this gimmick in more RAM/storage/CPU or simply save a couple hundred. It's also completely unusable when using the MBP on a desktop setup with a external display and keyboard which I think is the most common scenario for a 15'' pro laptop.


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## redlester

LowweeK said:


> Hmmm, it should be possible to restore a High Sierra image no ?
> Using Time Machine.



Maybe, am not sure. I should have said at the end of that “.. if you want to use it without a load of faffing”. Also applies to any new Mac at present, of course.


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## mscp

MacOS (Bloatless edition). That’d be neat.


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## artomatic

Looks great on paper. 
Will wait for users' review concerning heat, fan noise, gripes.


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## unclecheeks

LowweeK said:


> Hmmm, it should be possible to restore a High Sierra image no ?
> Using Time Machine.



From what I understand the answer is "no". Macs are only able to support the operating system at time of release and onwards. So in the case of these new 16", that'd be Catalina and onwards. Really stupid tbh...

For the mid-2019s, you could go down to Mojave, since that was the current release. I just picked up a refurb last week. Will probably return it as a) I'm not seeing THAT much of a massive performance leap from my well-speced 2014 to be worth the hassle of all the additional dongles I have to purchase (at least not for the way I work), b) I just don't know if I can live with potential butterfly keyboard failures, c) the touchpad is RIDICULOUSLY huge and obstructive, and d) well, the 16" is out at pretty much same price for top line machine, with better keyboard, larger display, etc.

ps. and why oh why, won't they bring back the magsafe adapter! It may sound trivial, but that's seriously one of the contributing factors for why I'm leaning towards returning the 2019 - clothesline that cable, and there goes your $5000 investment.


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## AndyP

Could be my replacement for both MacPro slaves and my mobile solution.
In combination with the iMac I would have 192 GB Ram and two i9 8 core processors at my disposal. This is enough power and memory for pretty much all cases.
Also mobile, and saves space, and power compared to the old MacPros.
However, only if the ventilation works properly. This is the biggest weakness of the new MacBooks.

4K is a good price if I consider the alternatives.


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## Pier

AndyP said:


> However, only if the ventilation works properly. This is the biggest weakness of the new MacBooks.



Indeed. The 2018 8 core model is plagued by throttling issues...

See this guy (it's a video from a couple of days ago):


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## 5Lives

Will be interesting to see benchmarks and performance reviews but could be a good upgrade from my 2015 iMac given I sort of want a more mobile setup going forward.


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## unclecheeks

5Lives said:


> Will be interesting to see benchmarks and performance reviews but could be a good upgrade from my 2015 iMac given I sort of want a more mobile setup going forward.



I've just recently been testing the 2019 8-core 2.4ghz, against my 2014 4-core 2.5ghz. Seems to handle audio loads ~2x better than my 2014 when testing heavy voice-loading with many Kontakt instruments in Ableton Live. Although, the GUI becomes sluggish quicker with the 2019. The new 16" use same processor as the 2019 15", so I expect similar perormance.


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## AndyP

Pier Bover said:


> Indeed. The 2018 8 core model is plagued by throttling issues...


Like him I also have a MacBook Pro 2018, but for music I only use the 2013. Sad, but reality.


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## Gerd Kaeding

As far as I understand Apple re-designed the thermal management for the new 16'' model .
This hopefully solves the issues recent 15'' models had .


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## Nick Batzdorf

This looks like the future of computers I - forward-looking visionary, thought leader, clairvoyant - have been predicting.

There's not really any reason to have desktop machines anymore.


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## DervishCapkiner

Possibly a silly question here but I'm running a 2009 Mac tower with 96gb 1333 ddr3 ram however does 64gb 2666 ddr4 ram mean it would be roughly equivalent to 128gb ddr3 1333? So in essence faster RAM.


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## Dewdman42

Gerd Kaeding said:


> As far as I understand Apple re-designed the thermal management for the new 16'' model .
> This hopefully solves the issues recent 15'' models had .



what did they do?


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## Dewdman42

DervishCapkiner said:


> Possibly a silly question here but I'm running a 2009 Mac tower with 96gb 1333 ddr3 ram however does 64gb 2666 ddr4 ram mean it would be roughly equivalent to 128gb ddr3 1333? So in essence faster RAM.



the ddr4 is definitely faster. But 64gb is still less then 128 no matter how you slice it. anything over about 8gb does not make your machine any faster except for the fact you can cache more samples in memory with a bit less ssd streaming.


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## Nick Batzdorf

Dewdman42 said:


> what did they do?



If you scroll down, this link has a sales diagram. Some of the Mac sites are written by obsequious fanboys who have sex with apples, but still:









Apple's new 16-inch MacBook Pro is built to blaze through pro workflows | AppleInsider


Apple continues to deliver on its commitment to Mac professionals in 2019 with the Wednesday debut of the 16-inch MacBook Pro. The new high-performance model is designed to replace the company's legacy 15-inch MacBook Pro at existing price points, while delivering a larger, enhanced display, a...




appleinsider.com


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## gsilbers

unclecheeks said:


> From what I understand the answer is "no". Macs are only able to support the operating system at time of release and onwards. So in the case of these new 16", that'd be Catalina and onwards. Really stupid tbh...
> 
> For the mid-2019s, you could go down to Mojave, since that was the current release. I just picked up a refurb last week. Will probably return it as a) I'm not seeing THAT much of a massive performance leap from my well-speced 2014 to be worth the hassle of all the additional dongles I have to purchase (at least not for the way I work), b) I just don't know if I can live with potential butterfly keyboard failures, c) the touchpad is RIDICULOUSLY huge and obstructive, and d) well, the 16" is out at pretty much same price for top line machine, with better keyboard, larger display, etc.
> 
> ps. and why oh why, won't they bring back the magsafe adapter! It may sound trivial, but that's seriously one of the contributing factors for why I'm leaning towards returning the 2019 - clothesline that cable, and there goes your $5000 investment.




im starting to notice a trend on this info. maybe its me that I've been out of the loop but with mac it was always possible to boot up in target disk mode, wipe the current OS And install a previous generation or two of OSX. sure apple doesnt like it and many poeple just stay with the current one but the option to do so was always there.


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## gsilbers

the view 1st impressions show a fix on the thermal throddleling and keyboards. or at least , those have better 1st impressions and specs.


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## prodigalson

gsilbers said:


> im starting to notice a trend on this info. maybe its me that I've been out of the loop but with mac it was always possible to boot up in target disk mode, wipe the current OS And install a previous generation or two of OSX. sure apple doesnt like it and many poeple just stay with the current one but the option to do so was always there.



I’m going to try regardless. So far, I’ve assessed at least $300 I’ll have to pay just to keep Sibelius and Finale functioning. Avid and MakeMusic will only offer support for Catalina with the very latest version and charge $149 each to upgrade. It’s highway robbery. And that’s just what I’ve accounted for so far.


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## charlieclouser

unclecheeks said:


> ps. and why oh why, won't they bring back the magsafe adapter! It may sound trivial, but that's seriously one of the contributing factors for why I'm leaning towards returning the 2019 - clothesline that cable, and there goes your $5000 investment.



I agree, that's puzzling. But there's tons of aftermarket versions for USB-C for around $40 or less, from established makers like Griffin and startups like Volta:









The Strongest Universal Magnetic Charging Cable | VOLTA®


VOLTA® magnetic charger is made of tangle free Military-grade materials featuring abrasion and tear resistance, crafted for heavy everyday use for Lightning, Micro USB and USB-C Devices. - SnagSafe (Like MagSafe for MacBook Pro) - Adaptive Fast Charging - Huawei Super Charging - OnePlus Dash...




voltacharger.com


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## Pier

Nick Batzdorf said:


> This looks like the future of computers I - forward-looking visionary, thought leader, clairvoyant - have been predicting.



Nah, the future of computing will be going back to dumb terminals and having everything in the cloud (storage and processing). We will be able to scale from 16 to 1024GB of RAM or from 4 to 128 CPU cores with a single click. We are already watching movies and TV shows from Netflix and Plex servers. In a couple of days Google is launching Stadia which is a gaming service in the cloud.

It will take 10-20 years but it will happen.




Nick Batzdorf said:


> There's not really any reason to have desktop machines anymore.



Except for the portability factor, desktops are always going to be better than laptops.


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## Dewdman42

specs wise this looks like a nice laptop.

I don't have a good opinion of Apple laptops right now. I spent bucks for a loaded up MBP in 2010, loaded it up with the fastest CPU I could get, the most ram it could have, the biggest SSD eventually, etc.. Even splurged and custom ordered with a matte finish screen, which you can't get anymore. It was my primary computer for a long time. It served its purpose. But 3 years after owning it suddenly it started getting kernel panics all the time and when I went online I found a whole following of people having the same problem. Apple never helped any of us at all with this problem. Turned out in the end to be a cheap capacitor on the logic board, which you can get replaced, but not by Apple, for around $300. Then it works fine again, but a lot of people never got that far, they just dealt the kernel panics and no help from apple, due to faulty hardware design. There still are people suffering with these kinds of problem, I know because I helped code a little hack around utility that is still on GitHub and still has people asking about it in order to keep their flakey Apple hardware running.

Then it turned out 2011 and 2012 and 2015 also had similar kinds of issues (use google), and maybe other models. Maybe some models were fine. I'm sure someone is going to have an emotional reaction to my post and let us all know that their Apple laptop has been the best computer they ever owned. Maybe this new one will be like that too. Or maybe not. I don't trust Apple to make a reliable all-in-one computer solution that is sleek and elegant and beautiful...and also doesn't have thermal problems, or kernel panics after some OS updates happen that push the video or whatever... 

The specs on this machine are very good, I'm happy to see it can support 64gb ram. I personally would wait a year to see how it works before plunking down that kind of cash and making it the center of your studio. 

And I do not think for one second that high powered laptops are the future of computing. Most people simply do not need that much power in a mobile device. That's why the iPad has taken off so well, because it turns out most people just want to watch movies on the plane, answer some emails, maybe edit a spreadsheet. 

I would much rather have a power desktop computer then a laptop any day, unless my profession depended on me being able to bring my studio with me on site for various reasons, then ok, the case would be made there. But there are definite pros and cons to owning a laptop


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## Nick Batzdorf

Pier Bover said:


> Nah, the future of computing will be going back to dumb terminals and having everything in the cloud (storage and processing). We will be able to scale from 16 to 1024GB of RAM or from 4 to 128 CPU cores with a single click. We are already watching movies and TV shows from Netflix and Plex servers. In a couple of days Google is launching Stadia which is a gaming service in the cloud.
> 
> It will take 10-20 years but it will happen.



So which is it - desktops are always going to be better than laptops, or everything is going to the cloud?

I say you're partly right and wrong on both accounts, to answer my rhetorical question.

Many things have moved to the cloud, no question, and that trend is accelerating. But the terminals required for what we do in music studios - real-time applications - will still have to be pretty powerful, and the Internet will have to be as fast as SSDs are today for us to stream instruments. In other words, the cloud isn't quite a hard drive yet.

As to desktops always being better than laptops, well, maybe, but we're pretty close to the point where laptops are more than enough to do what we've been using desktops for since Gigasampler revolutionized sampling. There's a plateau where every computer, including a smartphone, will have plenty of power to do what you and I use it for.


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## Dewdman42

I don't think it will all move to the cloud in our lifetime. 

Dumb terminals are so 1975

A lot of stuff will move to the cloud, but the thing is the people that control what gets invented and produced, you know people like Apple and Microsoft; they have in incentive to get us all to give them our money. That means they keep coming up with compelling reasons that we need to upgrade our hardware. They have been doing that for 40 years and I see no end in sight. They will just find little feature that you can't live without but you need a state of the art CPU and video chip in order to have it, so.... new iPhone and new computer next year or you'll be left behind.

That is not going to change any time soon....


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## Nick Batzdorf

And that's where we're headed - smartphones (or watches? shoes? anal implants?) have all the power, and they connect wirelessly to your screen, keyboard, whatever when you walk into the room.

That's a few weeks away, though.


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## Nick Batzdorf

Dewdman42 said:


> Dumb terminals are so 1975



Yeah, I don't see us going back to VT100s anytime soon.


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## Michael Antrum

Well it comes a little late for me as I jumped ship last week.

I bought a Razer Advanced last week from ebay (brand new sealed in box), upgraded it to a 2 tb NVME and 64gb Ram, and it's cost me less than 2k in total vs £ 3.9k for the 16" Macbook Pro. CPU is an i7 though, but with throttling I'm not sure there will be much difference.

I'm a Cubase user, and the Razer has thunderbolt for my Apollo Twin, and it's got lots of lovely ports, so I don't have to carry lots of dongles about. 

I don't get the point such a slim Apple laptop when you have to carry around loads of adapters and docking stations. 

I'm even warming to Windows 10 a little (but just a little). 

But I must admit the 16" does look nice, but I've made my bed now.....


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## Pier

Dewdman42 said:


> specs wise this looks like a nice laptop.
> 
> I don't have a good opinion of Apple laptops right now. I spent bucks for a loaded up MBP in 2010, loaded it up with the fastest CPU I could get, the most ram it could have, the biggest SSD eventually, etc.. Even splurged and custom ordered with a matte finish screen, which you can't get anymore. It was my primary computer for a long time. It served its purpose. But 3 years after owning it suddenly it started getting kernel panics all the time and when I went online I found a whole following of people having the same problem. Apple never helped any of us at all with this problem. Turned out in the end to be a cheap capacitor on the logic board, which you can get replaced, but not by Apple, for around $300. Then it works fine again, but a lot of people never got that far, they just dealt the kernel panics and no help from apple, due to faulty hardware design. There still are people suffering with these kinds of problem, I know because I helped code a little hack around utility that is still on GitHub and still has people asking about it in order to keep their flakey Apple hardware running.
> 
> Then it turned out 2011 and 2012 and 2015 also had similar kinds of issues (use google), and maybe other models. Maybe some models were fine. I'm sure someone is going to have an emotional reaction to my post and let us all know that their Apple laptop has been the best computer they ever owned. Maybe this new one will be like that too. Or maybe not. I don't trust Apple to make a reliable all-in-one computer solution that is sleek and elegant and beautiful...and also doesn't have thermal problems, or kernel panics after some OS updates happen that push the video or whatever...
> 
> The specs on this machine are very good, I'm happy to see it can support 64gb ram. I personally would wait a year to see how it works before plunking down that kind of cash and making it the center of your studio.
> 
> And I do not think for one second that high powered laptops are the future of computing. Most people simply do not need that much power in a mobile device. That's why the iPad has taken off so well, because it turns out most people just want to watch movies on the plane, answer some emails, maybe edit a spreadsheet.
> 
> I would much rather have a power desktop computer then a laptop any day, unless my profession depended on me being able to bring my studio with me on site for various reasons, then ok, the case would be made there. But there are definite pros and cons to owning a laptop



I agree with the sentiment.

I was affected by the infamous GPU dying problem of the 2011 15'' MBP. Apple routinely removed posts from their own forums about this issue but other than that it was absolute silence from them.

More than 2 years after the problems started and a couple class action lawsuits Apple finally decided to start a repair program which at this point was completely useless. 2+ years later everyone had already bought another machine and it was impossible to sell a repaired 2011 at decent prices. This repair program was only to prevent legal consequences, Apple high on the iPhone sucess didn't care about it's affected users of that division that only represents 10% of its revenue (yeah the Mac).

Since then I've seen Apple in a very different light.


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## Pier

Nick Batzdorf said:


> So which is it - desktops are always going to be better than laptops, or everything is going to the cloud?



In the current paradigm desktops are more powerful, expandable, repairable, upgradeable, etc, and you get a lot more for you money. Obviously for a lot of users a desktop is overkill. Regular people do not use trucks to go to the supermarket but it's different for pros, gamers, etc.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> Many things have moved to the cloud, no question, and that trend is accelerating. But the terminals required for what we do in music studios - real-time applications - will still have to be pretty powerful, and the Internet will have to be as fast as SSDs are today for us to stream instruments. In other words, the cloud isn't quite a hard drive yet.



Give it time. Gaming is very demanding too and like I said Google Stadia is launching in a couple of days. People will be able to play at 4K 60Hz on ultra quality and (apparently) with zero noticeable lag.

Latency when recording audio or midi is a problem that can be solved. For example, given enough bandwidth, the DAW could instantly download an audio snapshot of all the project so that the audio plays locally when recording audio and also downloads the plugins you are using and run them locally only during the recording.


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## mscp

After the d


Pier Bover said:


> I agree with the sentiment.
> 
> I was affected by the infamous GPU dying problem of the 2011 15'' MBP. Apple routinely removed posts from their own forums about this issue but other than that it was absolute silence from them.
> 
> More than 2 years after the problems started and a couple class action lawsuits Apple finally decided to start a repair program which at this point was completely useless. 2+ years later everyone had already bought another machine and it was impossible to sell a repaired 2011 at decent prices. This repair program was only to prevent legal consequences, Apple high on the iPhone sucess didn't care about it's affected users of that division that only represents 10% of its revenue (yeah the Mac).
> 
> Since then I've seen Apple in a very different light.



Apple died with Steve Jobs.


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## Nick Batzdorf

Phil81 said:


> Apple died with Steve Jobs.



Shit! I'd better sell all my stock before other people find out!


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## Nick Batzdorf

Pier Bover said:


> In the current paradigm desktops are more powerful, expandable, repairable, upgradeable, etc, and you get a lot more for you money. Obviously for a lot of users a desktop is overkill. Regular people do not use trucks to go to the supermarket but it's different for pros, gamers, etc.



My argument is that the current paradigm is expiring rapidly, and this MacBook Pro is Exhibit A. As I said, there's a point at which it doesn't matter how powerful a machine is, in fact I passed that point with my current (desktop) Mac Pro.

And I'm an irregular person who's not a truck driver.



Pier Bover said:


> Latency when recording audio or midi is a problem that can be solved. For example, given enough bandwidth, the DAW could instantly download an audio snapshot of all the project so that the audio plays locally when recording audio and also downloads the plugins you are using and run them locally only during the recording.



But how is that a step forward for anyone, and why would it be worth doing for a developer?

There's no Internet on the horizon that delivers data as fast as even a spinning hard drive, as far as I know. You can already download instruments and run them on any current machine, so I just don't see the point.

Quantum computing will change a lot of things, but there are quite a few steps before then. And I'm only guessing that quantum computers will be able to run really complicated instrument models better than classical computers can. 

Maybe someone knows the answer?


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## tmhuud

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That's a few weeks away, though.



is THAT all?! Lol


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## Dewdman42

I'm not that much younger then you Nick...but I don't think either of us are going to see quantum computing for consumers in our life time, for a variety of practical reasons. Its not even the right kind of technology it only works for certain kinds of calculations and requires extraordinarily difficult hardware that will simply never be on anyone's desktop frankly.

Regardless of whether network speeds get faster, the way things have been going is more towards distributed computing. Not centralized computing. The cloud is about data sharing.

But most of what happens for consumers has nothing to do with what is the best thing that they actually need, it has to do with companies trying to constantly change the environment in some manner so that we will feel compelled to buy new stuff. Personal computers have already been good enough for 99.99% of all consumers since decades already. And they can provide actually more than enough computer power for that same 99% in a thin little touchpad device. Where do they go from here? They have to do something because they want to make money, whether we need it or not.

All the logic used by business are different than consumers. Business need cloud computing for an entirely different reason which is to share data between employees, customers, etc. Cloud computing makes that a lot easier to deal with. So they have been pushing cloud computing for a while and in the business place it makes a lot of sense. A lot of business have dumbed down interfaces to run on web technology, even though that is actually a step down from what is possible on a native desktop app, for example. Why? Because cloud data is very much more convenient if you're business with lots of employees and customers trying to share the same data. But Apple still wants to sell new computers.... So.. They will think of something and try to tell us we have to upgrade to have it.

I think consumers do want SOME aspects of cloud data sharing, but the idea that we will all just have simple devices that all the computing will take place in some central server somewhere, that will not happen in my opinion. The CPU will be distributed as much as possible, both because it makes practical sense to get as many CPU's working as possible, and also so that Apple can sell you another computer every couple years if possible.


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## mscp

Pier Bover said:


> In the current paradigm desktops are more powerful, expandable, repairable, upgradeable, etc, and you get a lot more for you money. Obviously for a lot of users a desktop is overkill. Regular people do not use trucks to go to the supermarket but it's different for pros, gamers, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Give it time. Gaming is very demanding too and like I said Google Stadia is launching in a couple of days. People will be able to play at 4K 60Hz on ultra quality and (apparently) with zero noticeable lag.
> 
> Latency when recording audio or midi is a problem that can be solved. For example, given enough bandwidth, the DAW could instantly download an audio snapshot of all the project so that the audio plays locally when recording audio and also downloads the plugins you are using and run them locally only during the recording.



the cloud is still unreliable on many counts, imagine for intensive tasks. I don’t think it will be a thing for us to see - perhaps our grandkids.


Nick Batzdorf said:


> Shit! I'd better sell all my stock before other people find out!



Bada boom tsch!


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## Michael Antrum

I run a cloud based accounting system for my company, and it's gone down twice with horrendous results, as you can imagine.

But when movie streaming first came out there was no way I was going to pay money for something that I couldn't hold in may hand and call my own, and re-sell etc etc etc.

Roll on a few years and those BluRays cluttering up my house that I rarely watch are getting on my nerves. I can buy 4k movie much cheaper on Apple TV, and to be honest, I won't buy any more disks.

I moved from buying CD's to streaming without even thinking about it, only buying disks which have more importance to me, or those you can't get on streaming services.

Looking back, it was amazing how much and how quickly my attitude changed on Blu-rays and Cd's, so who knows what we'll be doing in a decade or so.....


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## Dewdman42

exactly. Data sharing. Movie and music streaming is a great example of that. Most of the computing is still happening on your local device where its decoding the compressed stream of data into pictures on the screen. The server is simply serving up files...that's all streaming really is.


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## Pier

Nick Batzdorf said:


> There's no Internet on the horizon that delivers data as fast as even a spinning hard drive, as far as I know.



I won't dwelve much into this since I've already derailed this thread too much...

You don't need a connection as fast as your drives if your files are already in the cloud. Also gigabit fiber connections (already available in many parts of the world for residential use) are faster than 99% of all spinning drives ever made.

We're still not there, but given enough time bandwidth will become negligible and omnipresent much like electricity.


----------



## gsilbers

I might need help understanding those new processor options for the 16th inch. 
one is a 2.3ghz 8 core 9th generation turbo to 4.8ghz.
and the other is 2.4ghz 8 core 9th generation turbo to 5.0ghz.

that difference seems to be tiny (from what i remember cpu's vary) and its $200 difference.

is the difference more than a tiny bit?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Dewdman42 said:


> I'm not that much younger then you Nick...but I don't think either of us are going to see quantum computing for consumers in our life time, for a variety of practical reasons



...not the least among them that the technology isn't anywhere near!

Google reportedly got a 54 qubit one to solve one problem that would have taken 10,000 years for a classical computer, but who knows.

In any case, quantum computers could be cloud-based - no need for everyone to have one.



Pier Bover said:


> You don't need a connection as fast as your drives if your files are already in the cloud



Please read Dewdman's post above. He explains it.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Google claims its quantum computer solved a 10,000-year problem in seconds


Google said on Wednesday it achieved a breakthrough in computer research by solving a complex problem in minutes with a so-called quantum computer that would take today's most powerful supercomputer thousands of years to crack.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## Vik

tmhuud said:


> is THAT all?! Lol


"Several weeks" would be more accurate than a few weeks.


----------



## Dewdman42

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Google claims its quantum computer solved a 10,000-year problem in seconds
> 
> 
> Google said on Wednesday it achieved a breakthrough in computer research by solving a complex problem in minutes with a so-called quantum computer that would take today's most powerful supercomputer thousands of years to crack.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com



the way quantum computing works is that it basically can't produce predictable results...its hard to explain, but for the vast majority of problems that most of us use computers for, quantum computing is not the right approach. There are certain kinds of calculations or modeling that might normally take a normal computer 10,000 years to calculate, where as a quantum computer does its unpredictable trial and error method and zeros in on the solution... so from a theroretical perspective its cool that google actually found a problem that could be solved with a quantum computer and they actually built one to do it...and that's cool...but the practical application for most of us in our day to day lives for what we do with our computers is next to nil.


----------



## mscp

Let's discuss how AI will take over our jobs, and move this to the drama zone. 

But seriously, I'm curious how everyone thinks about A.I.


----------



## Dewdman42

hehe now A.I. and Robotics are going to have a huge impact within the next 25 years....most of us are going to live to see that. I personally think we are going to have a financial crisis resulting from robotics. But we shall see.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Dewdman42 said:


> the way quantum computing works is that it basically can't produce predictable results



Right, although it might be able to model instruments down to insane detail. My understanding is that it can do factors, for example every combination of notes held with a piano sustain pedal down. The sun would turn into a red giant before a classical computer could calculate all that.

Of course, a convolution processor is more than good enough, but the thought is fun.


----------



## Dewdman42

How could it model instruments if it can't produce predictable results? 

truly, we are not going to see quantum computing do anything of practical use in our life time.









The Problem with Quantum Computers


It’s called decoherence—but while a breakthrough solution seems years away, there are ways of getting around it




blogs.scientificamerican.com


----------



## Gerd Kaeding

Gerd Kaeding said:


> As far as I understand Apple re-designed the thermal management for the new 16'' model .





Dewdman42 said:


> what did they do?



On its product site Apple says :

" More advanced thermal architecture enables faster processing. The thermal architecture in MacBook Pro has been completely redesigned, featuring larger impellers with improved fan blades for optimal airflow and more heat-dispersing fins for more effective cooling. "


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Dewdman42 said:


> How could it model instruments if it can't produce predictable results?
> 
> truly, we are not going to see quantum computing do anything of practical use in our life time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Problem with Quantum Computers
> 
> 
> It’s called decoherence—but while a breakthrough solution seems years away, there are ways of getting around it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> blogs.scientificamerican.com



My understanding, from my understanding of quantum mechanics such as it is, is that the answer has to do with probability. When something is in a quantum state, there's a probability of finding a particle in a certain position when you measure it.

Have to go out and deal with an even more unpredictable model - idiots at the DMV. But I'll come back and say some more stuff I know very little about, only it'll sound like I'm an expert on everything.


----------



## Dewdman42

it deals in probabilities yes. In the quantum realm its very hard to pinpoint whether a data bit is 0 or 1. Its always kind of nebulous, which apparently lends itself to certain kinds of calculations. But the other problem is that, for example, that calculator that Google built had what 54 bits? It literally needs to be billions of times larger to be able to do anything and one problem they have is that the actual hardware tends to degrade to non-quantum state pretty quickly and they don't know how to fix that. There are lots of hurdles. Maybe they'll get there someday, but they are very very far away from having practical application today.

And by the way, they've been talking about it, since the 80's.


----------



## Symfoniq

Gerd Kaeding said:


> On its product site Apple says :
> 
> " More advanced thermal architecture enables faster processing. The thermal architecture in MacBook Pro has been completely redesigned, featuring larger impellers with improved fan blades for optimal airflow and more heat-dispersing fins for more effective cooling. "



Based on the confirmed thermal improvements of the iMac Pro over the standard iMac, I'm optimistic that this is more than marketingspeak. This looks like a very solid machine. Looking forward to detailed reviews.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Dewdman42 said:


> In the quantum realm its very hard to pinpoint whether a data bit is 0 or 1.



Because it's neither and both when it's in a quantum state! It's just a wave function.

One of the first applications will be studying quantum mechanics in greater detail. Classical computers can only run models, while quantum ones will be running the actual thing.

Yes, I know that's a long way from modeling a piano sustain pedal.



Dewdman42 said:


> Maybe they'll get there someday, but they are very very far away from having practical application today.



That's not in question.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Symfoniq said:


> Based on the confirmed thermal improvements of the iMac Pro over the standard iMac, I'm optimistic that this is more than marketingspeak. This looks like a very solid machine. Looking forward to detailed reviews.



Marketingspeak doesn't make a product bad, it just makes marketingspeak annoying.


----------



## gsilbers

anyone know?

I might need help understanding those new processor options for the 16th inch.
one is a 2.3ghz 8 core 9th generation turbo to 4.8ghz.
and the other is 2.4ghz 8 core 9th generation turbo to 5.0ghz.

that difference seems to be tiny (from what i remember cpu's vary) and its $200 difference.

is the difference more than a tiny bit?


----------



## Pier

I've seen some videos of reviewers I trust and while nobody has posted temps or any concrete data they are all very impressed with the 16''.

I think after the last 5 or so years of frustration the Mac is finally coming back. I've already invested in a PC which I'm quite happy with, but I hope Apple will apply the same upgraded thermals to all their Mac products (13'' MBP, Mini, iMac).


----------



## Symfoniq

gsilbers said:


> anyone know?
> 
> I might need help understanding those new processor options for the 16th inch.
> one is a 2.3ghz 8 core 9th generation turbo to 4.8ghz.
> and the other is 2.4ghz 8 core 9th generation turbo to 5.0ghz.
> 
> that difference seems to be tiny (from what i remember cpu's vary) and its $200 difference.
> 
> is the difference more than a tiny bit?



The proof will be in the benchmarks.

BestBuy in the United States had these machines on the shelves starting today (though only standard configurations). Hopefully we will start seeing benchmarks tomorrow.


----------



## PeterKorcek

Yes, we need real world tests with this machine, but I am so happy they released this version - it really seems great in so many ways, thermals, keyboard, screen, etc.

I am just happy that once my 2013 MBP will die at some point (still going strong after so many years), there will be a good substitute


----------



## gsilbers

so there are a few benchmark and real tests on random youtube channels. pretty good so far. doesnt seem its way faster than the 15 inch but a little better. heat issue is better but not sure yet. although some review mention the same cpu as the 15inch but since the heat disipation is better then it gets better performance. 

and its confirmed its not user upgradable. which sucks. but no surprise.


----------



## unclecheeks

gsilbers said:


> so there are a few benchmark and real tests on random youtube channels. pretty good so far. doesnt seem its way faster than the 15 inch but a little better. heat issue is better but not sure yet. although some review mention the same cpu as the 15inch but since the heat disipation is better then it gets better performance.
> 
> and its confirmed its not user upgradable. which sucks. but no surprise.



It’s the same processor choices so it should perform about the same, minus some occasional throttling. I just spent a few days testing the 2019 15” with the 8 core 2.4. With power gadget open, and typing “yes” in terminal (who knew!) I maxed out the cpu and watched frequency. For the most part, it performed at high turbo speeds, but would occasionally throttle down for a few secs, still above 2.4 though. I ended up returning it since now that the 16” is out, that just seems like a better investment, and hopefully won’t have the occasional dip in power.

While I was at the Apple store, I played around with the 16” and the keyboard is much more satisfying to type on!


----------



## tmhuud

unclecheeks said:


> I was at the Apple store, I played around with the 16” and the keyboard is much more satisfying to type on!


That’s certainly GOOD news. I’m still on a late 2011. Maybe it’s time. Better hop over the Melrose Mac and find out.


----------



## unclecheeks

tmhuud said:


> That’s certainly GOOD news. I’m still on a late 2011. Maybe it’s time. Better hop over the Melrose Mac and find out.



Still pretty small travel, not too dissimilar from the butterfly keyboards, but have a much more satisfying action/click. And slightly more space between the keys. Still generally prefer the keyboard on my 2014, but the new ones on the 16” I think are still a significant improvement over the butterfly.


----------



## jononotbono

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Some of the Mac sites are written by obsequious fanboys who have sex with apples


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

tmhuud said:


> That’s certainly GOOD news. I’m still on a late 2011. Maybe it’s time. Better hop over the Melrose Mac and find out.



I've said this again and I'll say it before: the original Magic Keyboard and laptop equivalent Apple used until around 2015 couldn't be improved upon. It's the best ever, both the Bluetooth and wired versions.

Obviously this is subjective and not everyone agrees with me, but I type like a dot matrix printer and am very picky about keyboards that slow me down and cause me to make mistakes. These keyboards don't do that at all, and they feel great.

I think the current design is better than the no-travel one before it that had reliability issues, but the original is so good that I'm sticking with it as long as I can - even though they came out with a version that has a 10-key on it.


----------



## Dewdman42

I love those too, I even bought one for my hackintosh that later became a normal pc and still use it with windows now


----------



## mauriziodececco

Pier Bover said:


> The port situation is still unfortunate. The PC world is slowly moving to USB-C but even Apple still sells keyboards and mice with an USB-A cable for charging. It will take a couple more years for it to be popular enough to justify an USB-C only computer.


I am living with an USB-C only computer since 2015, and life is not hard as people describe. 
In particular, if you are really USB-C only, you just move your cables to USB-C and forget the thing.
The real problem is that there are few (any ?) USB-C hub, so if need an hub you may be forced to use USB-A to connect to the hub, and this yes, is a real pain in the ass.

About in general the fact that there are only USB-C and not HDMI, Display Port, Ethernet, USB-A or anything else, i am personally quite happy about this. I prefer having a huge thruput (on my new 13" macbook at least), that i know can adapt to different situations and future standards, than to lose space and connectors for a technology that i may use once every three or six month in mobility and that at home is covered by a non proprietary dock.

Maurizio


----------



## Geoff Grace

Here's a positive review from someone who has been critical of MacBook Pros from recent years:



Best,

Geoff


----------



## jiten

So has anyone been using the 16" MBP and how has it been? 

Am in the market for a new laptop for my mobile setup and general travel computing. What configuration have folks gone with? Wondering if the 2.4ghz i9 upgrade is at all worth it. The 2TB upgrade seems pretty steep ($400?!), so I'll probably just go 1TB since I'd be using external drives for samples anyways.

Also, has anyone seen anything RE thermal throttling issues during extended CPU stress? Any issues with fan noise?

Many thanks in advance!


----------



## Vik

Haven't tried it, but here are some benchmarks:


Mac Benchmarks - Geekbench Browser


----------



## unclecheeks

I haven’t tried the 2019, but I did briefly test a 2018 with the 2.4 i9 (before returning it). I experienced brief dips in processing power when monitoring with intel gadget (did you know that you can max out your cores by typing yes in terminal? I didn’t!) but no major throttling. To be honest I was not THAT impressed by the i9 in real world usage. I have a 2014 MBP with a quad 2.5 i7 and the 8-core 2.4 i9 performed almost exactly twice as fast on the same test sessions. I was expecting more. Unfortunately, the Ableton gui also became sluggish much earlier running the same sessions as on my 2014 (but at half the cpu load), not sure what that’s about...


----------



## ag75

charlieclouser said:


> I agree, that's puzzling. But there's tons of aftermarket versions for USB-C for around $40 or less, from established makers like Griffin and startups like Volta:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Strongest Universal Magnetic Charging Cable | VOLTA®
> 
> 
> VOLTA® magnetic charger is made of tangle free Military-grade materials featuring abrasion and tear resistance, crafted for heavy everyday use for Lightning, Micro USB and USB-C Devices. - SnagSafe (Like MagSafe for MacBook Pro) - Adaptive Fast Charging - Huawei Super Charging - OnePlus Dash...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> voltacharger.com


Wow thanks for pointing these out! I just picked up a couple. I’m also looking for something (quite the opposite of this) that would make a more reliable/stronger connection to an audio interface in a live performance setting.


----------



## Chris Richter

Check this before buying. Maybe it’s relevant to you.


----------



## gsilbers

jiten said:


> So has anyone been using the 16" MBP and how has it been?
> 
> Am in the market for a new laptop for my mobile setup and general travel computing. What configuration have folks gone with? Wondering if the 2.4ghz i9 upgrade is at all worth it. The 2TB upgrade seems pretty steep ($400?!), so I'll probably just go 1TB since I'd be using external drives for samples anyways.
> 
> Also, has anyone seen anything RE thermal throttling issues during extended CPU stress? Any issues with fan noise?
> 
> Many thanks in advance!




i upgrades my ols 2012 mbp w a 2tb drive and its so useful to have some breathing room. 1tb gets filled up so quickly w random stuff. maybe if its a second machine just for the traveling then maybe. for those looking for a full rig then its better to upgrade when buying since its not upgradable.


----------



## gsilbers

unclecheeks said:


> I haven’t tried the 2019, but I did briefly test a 2018 with the 2.4 i9 (before returning it). I experienced brief dips in processing power when monitoring with intel gadget (did you know that you can max out your cores by typing yes in terminal? I didn’t!) but no major throttling. To be honest I was not THAT impressed by the i9 in real world usage. I have a 2014 MBP with a quad 2.5 i7 and the 8-core 2.4 i9 performed almost exactly twice as fast on the same test sessions. I was expecting more. Unfortunately, the Ableton gui also became sluggish much earlier running the same sessions as on my 2014 (but at half the cpu load), not sure what that’s about...




are u getting the 16inch one? seems the thermal fix increasing cpu performance so it would be interesting to see if u get better results.


----------



## gsilbers

Geoff Grace said:


> Here's a positive review from someone who has been critical of MacBook Pros from recent years:
> 
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff





i havent seen a bad one yet. even from linus tips that hates apple gave the mac pro a possitive review. 

and just like this review and other "tech" guys, they seem to critizise some very weird and random-deep stuff i find very minor. 

still, the lack of upgradability and price is a major down for me. even if it replaces and kicks my 900 kilogram mac pro from 2009 ass.


----------



## gsilbers

CQrity said:


> Check this before buying. Maybe it’s relevant to you.




sometimes i just wanna grab these videos, download them, edit out 99% of the blah blah and shoow the 1 minute i needed to learn. 


but more on point... i did see some videos disabling the T2. not sure if ithat helps the drop out issue. 

also, i saw a recent firmware that fixes it. but i dont know if for example, i downgraded to mac high sierra, will it work.


----------



## unclecheeks

gsilbers said:


> are u getting the 16inch one? seems the thermal fix increasing cpu performance so it would be interesting to see if u get better results.



Probably not, at least not right away. If I was still able to run HS or Mojave I probably would. But I honestly don’t want the hassle of moving to Catalina, it isn’t worth the performance gain for me. Most of my sessions run fine on my 2014. If anything, I just need to be better at freezing/bouncing in heavy sessions. I’ll probably get the 16” down the line, but I just couldn’t justify dropping 4-5K (not to mention the additional $$$ for Live 9-10 update and all the damn dongles and cables to work with my current setup). I’d rather invest a small fraction of that money where it will count more for me - a few libraries, and a decent guitar setup with a Fishman triple play.


----------



## jiten

Hmm, thanks for pointing out the T2 issue. That had somehow escaped my attention completely. Was pretty concerned seeing that as I would be using it with an RME Babyface Pro, which is in fact a USB2 interface. However, based on some reading on Gearslutz and the RME forums, this seems to have been resolved (at least for the RME interfaces) through a series of Mojave and firmware updates earlier this year like gsilbers mentioned. Less clear if it has been completely fixed for all other USB2 interfaces though.

I am also currently on a quad i7 2014 MBP, but it isn't my main rig (would never replace my properly cooled/powered desktop towers!) So I'd be using it purely for a mobile setup and general travel computer. Could never justify upgrading it before because of the ridiculous keyboard. But now that's been addressed and being able to increase RAM from the 16GB I have in my current MBP is tempting...


----------



## jcrosby

gsilbers said:


> sometimes i just wanna grab these videos, download them, edit out 99% of the blah blah and shoow the 1 minute i needed to learn.
> 
> 
> but more on point... i did see some videos disabling the T2. not sure if ithat helps the drop out issue.
> 
> also, i saw a recent firmware that fixes it. but i dont know if for example, i downgraded to mac high sierra, will it work.


The T2 chip cannot be "disabled" in any way. You can reduce the security restrictions but it has no effect on the issue he's talking about for two reasons. (I've been dealing with this issue for a year now.)

1. The T2 chip IS the firmware. It's the SSD controller, the audio controller, the port/data hub middle-man, it's hardwired to the onboard microphone, it's the middle-man before you even see a picture from the onboard camera.

This is the issue people don't understand that the T2 chip replaces what used to be the SMC. Dsiabling it is literally impossible...

2. Also, this issue is related to a bug where macOS gets confused talking to audio devices, that process being managed by the T2. Basically the two OS's have some kind of translation issue that Apple fixed once, (_2018 MacBook Pro Supplemental Update 2_), but eventually broke again later, (_Security Update 2018-002_), and have left broken since. (The issue's also worse with the built in audio hardware.)

This is just how bad the issue can get, the video below is my machine from last year before having to wipe the internal drive and restore from a clone. To corroborate Louis Rossmans claim about 'T2 overload', if you pause parts of the video you'll see regular 'overload' messages being reported to Console in the form of _Skipping Cycle due to Overload _followed directly_ by_ _Audio IO Overload Inputs,_ (not to mention a ton of other errors...)


The issue 1st appeared in the T2 macBook in Jul 18, Apple issued a fix that actually worked at the end of August 18, then broke the issue again at the end of November.

I'll stand behind that statement based on the following experience - I got my my 2018 at the beginning of Sept. I was aware of the issue before I received it and immediately installed the patch audio released at the end of August. That machine had no audio issues until Dec 9. (I have auto-update disabled on all of my machines for reasons like this...) I installed Security Update 2018-002 that morning and the problem showed up after the updater restarted.The machine started stuttering like mad.

Over the next month I chased the issue down with Apple, (Apple had nothing but lip service to offer. Eventually Bombich walked me through how to restore from a snapshot I made right before installing that update.

I did a bunch of tests, (including one where I left the machine booted from the pre-update clone for 4 days.) In every single test booted from the clone, the issue disappeared entirely. In every test booted from the internal the issue came back. (Always 50 mins after reboot). Eventually I wiped the internal disk and restored from the clone and the issue disappeared completely.

Recently I installed another security update and the issue came back. So far Apple is either unaware of the issue, or worse are coached not to acknowledge it. (Yeah I sound like I'm wearing a tinfoil hat but this issue is over a year old with threads running into the many thousands of posts, not to mention Apple deleting multiple posts I made to Apple's forum.)

the bottom line is don't fool yourself into thinking the T2 chip is just some simple security encryption chip, it replaced what used to be the SMC and also handles the firmware. The only control you have over it is knocking its boot security down which will not affect the issue he's referring to...

I'd research the issue heavily before shelling out any cash if you haven't already...

*Apple T2 Security Chip White Paper*


----------



## gsilbers

jcrosby said:


> The T2 chip cannot be "disabled" in any way. You can reduce the security restrictions but it has no effect on the issue he's talking about for two reasons. (I've been dealing with this issue for a year now.)
> 
> 1. The T2 chip IS the firmware. It's the SSD controller, the audio controller, the port/data hub middle-man, it's hardwired to the onboard microphone, it's the middle-man before you even see a picture from the onboard camera.
> 
> This is the issue people don't understand that the T2 chip replaces what used to be the SMC. Dsiabling it is literally impossible...
> 
> 2. Also, this issue is related to a bug where macOS gets confused talking to audio devices, that process being managed by the T2. Basically the two OS's have some kind of translation issue that Apple fixed once, (_2018 MacBook Pro Supplemental Update 2_), but eventually broke again later, (_Security Update 2018-002_), and have left broken since. (The issue's also worse with the built in audio hardware.)
> 
> This is just how bad the issue can get, the video below is my machine from last year before having to wipe the internal drive and restore from a clone. To corroborate Louis Rossmans claim about 'T2 overload', if you pause parts of the video you'll see regular 'overload' messages being reported to Console in the form of _Skipping Cycle due to Overload _followed directly_ by_ _Audio IO Overload Inputs,_ (not to mention a ton of other errors...)
> 
> 
> The issue 1st appeared in the T2 macBook in Jul 18, Apple issued a fix that actually worked at the end of August 18, then broke the issue again at the end of November.
> 
> I'll stand behind that statement based on the following experience - I got my my 2018 at the beginning of Sept. I was aware of the issue before I received it and immediately installed the patch audio released at the end of August. That machine had no audio issues until Dec 9. (I have auto-update disabled on all of my machines for reasons like this...) I installed Security Update 2018-002 that morning and the problem showed up after the updater restarted.The machine started stuttering like mad.
> 
> Over the next month I chased the issue down with Apple, (Apple had nothing but lip service to offer. Eventually Bombich walked me through how to restore from a snapshot I made right before installing that update.
> 
> I did a bunch of tests, (including one where I left the machine booted from the pre-update clone for 4 days.) In every single test booted from the clone, the issue disappeared entirely. In every test booted from the internal the issue came back. (Always 50 mins after reboot). Eventually I wiped the internal disk and restored from the clone and the issue disappeared completely.
> 
> Recently I installed another security update and the issue came back. So far Apple is either unaware of the issue, or worse are coached not to acknowledge it. (Yeah I sound like I'm wearing a tinfoil hat but this issue is over a year old with threads running into the many thousands of posts, not to mention Apple deleting multiple posts I made to Apple's forum.)
> 
> the bottom line is don't fool yourself into thinking the T2 chip is just some simple security encryption chip, it replaced what used to be the SMC and also handles the firmware. The only control you have over it is knocking its boot security down which will not affect the issue he's referring to...
> 
> I'd research the issue heavily before shelling out any cash if you haven't already...
> 
> *Apple T2 Security Chip White Paper*





interesting. 

so does this happen to all mac with t2 chip? seems it would be a LOT of macs since the t2 came out. 

And does it happen with audio interfaces that are USB-C? you mentioned even with the onboard hardware.


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

Well I got one - 4tb, 64GB. Runs like a dream, and I can *finally* swap projects between big & little mac seamlessly. Love it! 

I haven't hooked it up with an audio interface yet for mobile recording, but I aim to get the smallest 'decent' interface I can (maybe a Focusrite Scarlett) soon so I'll update if it all goes wrong.


----------



## Thundercat

unclecheeks said:


> ps. and why oh why, won't they bring back the magsafe adapter! It may sound trivial, but that's seriously one of the contributing factors for why I'm leaning towards returning the 2019 - clothesline that cable, and there goes your $5000 investment.


I was utterly mind blown when they announced they were nixing MagSafe. I adore it and it’s saved me a couple times.

plus it’s so damn cool and easy to use!


----------



## unclecheeks

Richard Wilkinson said:


> Well I got one - 4tb, 64GB. Runs like a dream, and I can *finally* swap projects between big & little mac seamlessly. Love it!
> 
> I haven't hooked it up with an audio interface yet for mobile recording, but I aim to get the smallest 'decent' interface I can (maybe a Focusrite Scarlett) soon so I'll update if it all goes wrong.



Enjoy! Curious to hear your thoughts after some use. Still contemplating upgrading my 2014.


----------



## SupremeFist

Thundercat said:


> I was utterly mind blown when they announced they were nixing MagSafe. I adore it and it’s saved me a couple times.
> 
> plus it’s so damn cool and easy to use!


I agree, but also tbf the adoption of USB-C means you don't have to buy Apple's own spectacularly overpriced charger, and I like being able to charge my mbP at various points around the house.


----------



## gsilbers

for those who have the new macbook pro, are you using a 2.0 usb audio interface and dont have the t2 dropout issues?


----------



## gsilbers

Ok, so I figured out my question about downgrading OS X.

it’s the drivers for the graphics that’s not available on Mojave installers.

And seems someone was able to grab the kext from the Catalina disk but others didn’t have luck.

for previous models, that came out when Mojave was out can easily be downgraded. So the 15 inch model is fine.

not sure the new Mac Pro.

I’m still afraid of all the 32 bit plugins I have and using Catalina so that’s a bummer.


----------



## jiten

jcrosby said:


> The T2 chip cannot be "disabled" in any way. You can reduce the security restrictions but it has no effect on the issue he's talking about for two reasons. (I've been dealing with this issue for a year now.)
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing this. I keep going back and forth on upgrading my 2014 MBP. Based on what I read, it seemed like the T2 audio issues were resolved for RME interfaces specifically (as of mid-2019 I think).

The amount of errors and glitches you were getting in that video is crazy! Out of curiosity, what audio interface were you using when experiencing these issues? Also have you tried latest Mojave and/or Catalina? Apparently 10.14.4 and 10.14.5 updates "fixed" this for most people according to some threads on Gearslutz.

I may just go for the 2.3 i9 / 64GB / 1TB config which I think will be more than sufficient for travel/dev work, and then try to test it thoroughly while within the return period.


----------



## jcrosby

jiten said:


> Thanks for sharing this. I keep going back and forth on upgrading my 2014 MBP. Based on what I read, it seemed like the T2 audio issues were resolved for RME interfaces specifically (as of mid-2019 I think).
> 
> The amount of errors and glitches you were getting in that video is crazy! Out of curiousity, what audio interface were you using when experiencing these issues? Also have you tried latest Mojave and/or Catalina? Apparently 10.14.4 and 10.14.5 updates "fixed" this for most people according to some threads on Gearslutz.
> 
> I may just go for the 2.3 i9 / 64GB / 1TB config which I think will be more than sufficient for travel/dev work, and then try to test it throughly while within the return period.



I'd at least be weary if you're thinking of a refurb 2018 or 2019. Not sure about the 16 inch, may not be an issue.

I was using built in audio. This is a big deal for me as the MacBook as always been something I take with me to get out of the house. Since the headphone jack sounds decent enough it's always been a great all-in-one solution... That said I have plugged my D-Box+ into it, regular dropouts every minute or so.

For people who do use the headphone jack, or use it on occasion - The other thing to be aware of is Apple have mucked up auto-switching. (When you unplug/plug in the phones and it switches from the speakers to phones or vice versa...)

I often used the speakers for a quick mix 'reality check', now you have to manually switch outputs in your DAW, as creating an aggregate behaves differently from DAW to DAW. In some DAWs this solves it, others it doesn't... it can also put you in the awkward position of unintentionally playing sound out of the speakers if they were the last selected device and you don't switch devices manually before resuming playback. Had this happen at a neighborhood cafe twice and it was jarring since the speakers on this thing are pretty loud for a laptop.

Not only that, in some DAWs this means your entire project has to reload before it switches devices. In Bitwig and Logic for example changing devices means I have to wait for it to unload all of my kontakt instances then reload them again before I can use the cans or do a quick mix check.

Personally I find this to be a real let down as I've always done about half of my writing on a MacBook. I'll move things to my studio computer if needed, but if I can keep everything inside the same machine it's a lot less moving parts to keep track of... Anyway between this and the *glitch that won't die* it's knocked the MBP down a few pegs for me... I've gone through a lot of MacBooks, not even sure if my next laptop will be a mac at this point... If you use an interface you'll probably get better mileage... but if you use it with the built-in jack it's a pretty big nuissance...

As far as the glitching that's what blows my mind... You'd think that addressing an issue with the built-in hardware would be an easy fix, and something they'd Address relatively quickly.

Also it's pretty darned safe to assume to two issues are tied, (if not stemming from the same place.) The glitching / popping showed up in the same update as when people started to complaining about USB dropouts.

I haven't upgraded to 10.14 because the issue was still reported as happening in late November in the thread below, (last dot update of Mojave.). I'm skeptical to say the least that it's been resolved. I'll test it out at some point, but only when I have time to test the ever living **** out of it for a few days...









MacBook Pro 2018 - Speakers Crackling


Really now...?! Same old, same old... They had done nothing to resolve the issue?




forums.macrumors.com





*EDIT: *According to the thread below there are still some audio issues on the 16 inch.

The popping that happens in the second part of the video on page 1 is identical to popping I still get. (While I was able to get the glitching go away by restoring from a backup, the popping on playback never went away.) I stick to my theory that bridgeOS has SERIOUS core audio issues Apple have yet to address...

Personally I'd do some serious homework or deep testing before assuming it's all roses...

Thread Title: 

"*Apple Investigating 16-Inch MacBook Pro Popping Sound Issue, Fix Planned in Future Software Updates"*










Apple Investigating 16-Inch MacBook Pro Popping Sound Issue, Fix Planned in Future Software Updates


Definitely had this issue but on a Mac Pro 5,1 running Mojave. Making a new user got rid of it but only temporarily. - Tried using different audio outputs - Was initially coming from the line out 1/8" audio jack, then tried using an Apogee Duet 2 audio interface - Issue persisted then. Strange...




forums.macrumors.com


----------



## AndyP

I assume that the audio problems do not occur when I use the MacBook as VEP slave over ethernet?
Standalone the internal audio output is enough for me, so i would not get into the problem with usb2 audio interfaces.


----------



## apollinaire

gsilbers said:


> Ok, so I figured out my question about downgrading OS X.
> 
> it’s the drivers for the graphics that’s not available on Mojave installers.
> 
> And seems someone was able to grab the kext from the Catalina disk but others didn’t have luck.
> 
> for previous models, that came out when Mojave was out can easily be downgraded. So the 15 inch model is fine.
> 
> not sure the new Mac Pro.
> 
> I’m still afraid of all the 32 bit plugins I have and using Catalina so that’s a bummer.



I heard from an Apple rep that it's the same with the Mac Pro, it only works with Catalina and upwards.


----------



## jcrosby

AndyP said:


> I assume that the audio problems do not occur when I use the MacBook as VEP slave over ethernet?
> Standalone the internal audio output is enough for me, so i would not get into the problem with usb2 audio interfaces.



No idea. I can say from dealing with this issue however that it is not just a USB issue. As far as the popping it happens to me in everything from Logic to itunes to chrome. It's not tied to any specific app, it's across the entire OS. And it only happens on the speakers. Buffering issues however happen on both the speakers and headphone jack... And as I said, when I hooked up my D Box I was getting dropouts.

Basically the real source of the issue is either a macOS or bridgeOS issue that's been happening since the 1st release of Mojave, (and a security patch issued that same day for High Sierra.) In other words the crackling and popping began for me the same exact day the mini launched with its drop out issues so I'm positive they are in fact the same issue...

And pretty sure the reason the crackling/popping's not reported on the mini is because you're more likely to use the mini with an interface, whereas there's a decent chance you'll use the MacBook with the built in audio. So it "looks" and behaves differently with the built-in hardware, but stems from the same issue. The odds of these issues all showing up on the same day without being related seems insanely low...

I'd recommend visiting some of the threads above and either do some reading or post a question... There are alot of composers in those mac rumors threads so you might turn up someone using one with VEP.


----------



## jiten

jcrosby said:


> No idea. I can say from dealing with this issue however that it is not just a USB issue. As far as the popping it happens to me in everything from Logic to itunes to chrome. It's not tied to any specific app, it's across the entire OS. And it only happens on the speakers. Buffering issues however happen on both the speakers and headphone jack... And as I said, when I hooked up my D Box I was getting dropouts.
> 
> Basically the real source of the issue is either a macOS or bridgeOS issue that's been happening since the 1st release of Mojave, (and a security patch issued that same day for High Sierra.) In other words the crackling and popping began for me the same exact day the mini launched with its drop out issues so I'm positive they are in fact the same issue...
> 
> And pretty sure the reason the crackling/popping's not reported on the mini is because you're more likely to use the mini with an interface, whereas there's a decent chance you'll use the MacBook with the built in audio. So it "looks" and behaves differently with the built-in hardware, but stems from the same issue. The odds of these issues all showing up on the same day without being related seems insanely low...
> 
> I'd recommend visiting some of the threads above and either do some reading or post a question... There are alot of composers in those mac rumors threads so you might turn up someone using one with VEP.



I think there are several issues that may or may not be related (and may or may not stem from T2) spanning several MBP models. I'm trying to focus specifically on reports on the 16" since that's what's most relevant to this thread and what I'm interested in.

I was aware of the built-in speakers popping issue when scrubbing videos on the 16" models. I don't know if this affects DAW work though as most people cited having problems in safari/chrome or FCP when scrubbing videos and not in other apps. In any case, this can apparently be fixed in software and is in Apple's hands at this point. It's not a big deal for me anyway as I rarely ever use laptop speakers (only to occasionally check a mix or for casual listening). I do use the headphone jack a lot more but as you said, looks like reports indicate this only being a problem with the built-in speakers.

There was a also separate issue then with USB2 interfaces glitching and dropping that was tied to the T2 chip. As far as I can tell, this was resolved for the RME interfaces. I didn't research or look into other USB2 interfaces specifically, but think it was fixed with a Mojave update.

At this point, I have probably gleaned all the info I could hope to from scouring gearslutz and macrumor threads. Though it would be helpful to hear accounts from anyone who is using the 16" MBP on their experiences with any pops/clicks/artifacts using (1) built-in speakers (2) headphone jack and (3) a USB audio interface.


----------



## jcrosby

jiten said:


> I think there are several issues that may or may not be related (and may or may not stem from T2) spanning several MBP models. I'm trying to focus specifically on reports on the 16" since that's what's most relevant to this thread and what I'm interested in.
> 
> I was aware of the built-in speakers popping issue when scrubbing videos on the 16" models. I don't know if this affects DAW work though as most people cited having problems in safari/chrome or FCP when scrubbing videos and not in other apps. In any case, this can apparently be fixed in software and is in Apple's hands at this point. It's not a big deal for me anyway as I rarely ever use laptop speakers (only to ocasionally check a mix or for casual listening). I do use the headphone jack a lot more but as you said, looks like reports indicate this only being a problem with the built-in speakers.
> 
> There was a also separate issue then with USB2 interfaces glitching and dropping that was tied to the T2 chip. As far as I can tell, this was resolved for the RME interfaces. I didn't research or look into other USB2 interfaces specifically, but think it was fixed with a Mojave update.
> 
> At this point, I have probably gleaned all the info I could hope to from scouring gearslutz and macrumor threads. Though it would be helpful to hear accounts from anyone who is using the 16" MBP on their experiences with any pops/clicks/artifacts using (1) built-in speakers (2) headphone jack and (3) a USB audio interface.


You must not have read my previous post.

This all showed up at the same time, in the same update; the same day Apple released Mojave, the mini, and patched high Sierra.

If you have the pleasure of dealing with them the dropouts and glitching are systemwide, and show up in tandem with the RME issue.

They are the same issue, and yes they do all tie to the T2 chip. T1/T2 chip models are the only apple machines that have had ongoing audio issues that reach back to 2016 (<- *T1 chip*). Not to mention that all issues show up all over again on the same day.

Not to mention that the sole purpose of the T2 chip is that it replaces what used to be the SMC, and handles the majority of firmware. I.e. The T2 manages _internal audio_, the _SSD Controller_, _the camera_, acts as the middle before it approves anything plugged into USB/thunderbolt, including audio devices. Almost all hardware on the MacBook Pro has to negotiate some kind of connection via the T2 chip. (On other machines not quite as much, the MacBook however is a different story...)



_Past *Apple* notebooks have suffered from similar issues, including the *2016 MacBook Pro* with Touch Bar. In 2017, a small number of users reported hearing a "pinging" or "*popping*" *noise* coming from within the chassis during periods of heavy use. Similar sounds caused alarm for *MacBook Pro* owners in *2016*.Dec 6, 2019_


*








Apple confirms 16-inch MacBook Pro 'popping' sound is software issue


Apple in a document sent to service providers this week confirmed recent reports of "popping" or "clicking" noises emanating from new 16-inch MacBook Pro models, saying the issue stems from a software bug that will be patched in a future macOS update.




appleinsider.com




*

As for the popping, again the behavior on my machine is identical to the 16 inch in the Video on the linked article. And if you take the time to watch it you see Logic being used - it’s not program dependent, it happens DAWs, browsers, video players, itunes.

As I said it’s system wide, and if you do a little research you’ll see that relying Apple for an honest explanation is generally bad advice, at least currently.

And FYI I did the same thing  I waited for Apple to patch the 2018 MBP before I pulled the trigger; which they did in August of 2018 . The fix they out out (_Supplemental Update 2_) worked... Just a few short months later they broke it all over again with a later update, this time the issue's lingered around in some form or another for over a year now.

*Also no I'm not suggesting anyone not to buy one. That'd be ridiculous *... I'm just saying that doing a little research before emptying your wallet might spare you some pretty expensive grief...


----------



## jiten

jcrosby said:


> You must not have read my previous post.
> 
> This all showed up at the same time, in the same update; the same day Apple released Mojave, the mini, and patched high Sierra.
> 
> If you have the pleasure of dealing with them the dropouts and glitching are systemwide, and show up in tandem with the RME issue.
> 
> ....



I did read your posts, but it seemed to me that the issue you were experiencing in your video was different than what is being reported on the new 16" models. Your video demonstrated glitching every 1-2 seconds during continuous playback. The new 16" models pop when starting/stopping playback or scrubbing. I haven't seen recent reports of USB interface dropouts or anything affecting the headphone jack on the 16" though. But fair enough on both/all these issues being tied to T2.

If you ever get around to it, I'd definitely be interested to hear if you are still having the buffering problem that affected the headphone out or your DBox under the latest Mojave or Catalina updates.

And yes you are right I spoke too hastily, some users have experienced the speaker pop in Logic or Ableton. But others have reported no pops in Logic or Apple Music or Spotify. It seems random and app-specific on some people's systems. There are also some interesting workarounds posted that apparently solve this by running MP3s of silence or QT in the background.

I'm just going off of most user reports in this thread:








Any one notices the cracking/popping sound of new 16 inch MBP?


Update 12/10/2019 It seems that Catalina 10.15.2 has fixed all the popping sound issues for me, including Youtube playing using Safari/Chrome, video playing using iina/mpv, although others have reported conflicting results on this. Given that the wide spreading issue with 10.15.1, it might be...




forums.macrumors.com





And of course, I really appreciate you sharing your experience with all this. I haven't really been plugged in to all the problems plaguing the latest MBP models as I haven't been in the market for a new macbook until recently. At the very least, I now know what to test for and if it turns out worse than I expected or if it affects the headphone port or USB interfaces, then that would be more of a deal-breaker for me. Will also look out for the auto-switching issue you mentioned (though I can probably live with that too as I'm not switching that often or at all really...)


----------



## ridgero

Any long term reviews?

Thanks


----------



## ridgero

Mh?


----------



## gsilbers

I finally got it. So far so good. 
Fan noise sometimes is an issue. But the weird thing is that the fan ramps up due to cpu when doing audio unit validation in logic but then it stops. I then load like 28+ diva synth and play them back together and no fan issue. Cpu monitor is low etc.
That load would destroy My 5,1 Mac Pro.

I’m still waiting on the micron 5210 8tb ssd drives to come down in price so I can load my sample libraries and projects. They vary a lot depending on inventory and demand.

No audio glitches so far. 

Its odd because on one end is amazing how much power it has and 64gb of ram but on the other is underwhelming is just like most larger computers but double the price.

I bought it via educational discount.... u don’t need to provide proof. And I got the Apple Card so it had cash back. 

Also, it took me a while to to figure out but the site has two models i7 and i9 to start from.
The i9 already has a better pricier graphics card but if u start selecting the i7 and upgrade cpu and memory and not graphics u save some money there as well since it’s a lower priced graphics cards the other selection doesn’t have option to downgrade.


----------



## sourcefor

Does anyone see a benefit in upgrading to a new 16” MacBook Pro from a 2019 15” MacBook Pro i9 with 32gb ram? I do find myself needing more ram at times, so the 64g of ram seems enticing!


----------



## gsilbers

sourcefor said:


> Does anyone see a benefit in upgrading to a new 16” MacBook Pro from a 2019 15” MacBook Pro i9 with 32gb ram? I do find myself needing more ram at times, so the 64g of ram seems enticing!



seems you could get the i7 Mac mini with 64gb of ram for about 1600ish or less. 
which could be used as a sample pc only. or all way windows for that matter.


----------



## unclecheeks

sourcefor said:


> Does anyone see a benefit in upgrading to a new 16” MacBook Pro from a 2019 15” MacBook Pro i9 with 32gb ram? I do find myself needing more ram at times, so the 64g of ram seems enticing!



Well, if you’ve already identified and confirmed RAM is a limitation, it seems like you’ve answered your own question! I’d considered the new MBP, but Catalina put me off. Ended up going with 2018 6c i7 Mac mini with 64gb ram, significantly cheaper


----------



## AndyP

unclecheeks said:


> Well, if you’ve already identified and confirmed RAM is a limitation, it seems like you’ve answered your own question! I’d considered the new MBP, but Catalina put me off. Ended up going with 2018 6c i7 Mac mini with 64gb ram, significantly cheaper


I already had that in mind, but this is the model that has thermal problems.
The new MacBook doesn't seem to turn up the fans as quickly.
I also really need more memory for my portable solution.
Catalina is also the reason why I am not yet considering the new MacBook.


----------



## sourcefor

unclecheeks said:


> Well, if you’ve already identified and confirmed RAM is a limitation, it seems like you’ve answered your own question! I’d considered the new MBP, but Catalina put me off. Ended up going with 2018 6c i7 Mac mini with 64gb ram, significantly cheaper


Yes Catalina puts me off but I need a portable machine as I travel once a month and the new 16” ticks all the boxes!


----------



## BenjaminParis

Hi, 

I can share my experience as I bought one about a month ago. I9 model with 64 Go and the upper graphic card. 

If I start with the issue: yes, I have one with the sound when working with the internal speakers. Strangely it happens only when I work on music project, when I run Cubase, Dorico, VSL or Kontakt. It happens often but not always, that is weird. Weird too: I have no problem if I listen to music, either mp3 or a video on YouTube. 

If I plug headphones: no problem at all, even with Cubase, etc. 

If I plug my RME Fireface 802: no problem at all, even with Cubase, etc. 

So that is very annoying this speaker problem when you’re working in music, especially with a « mobile » solution. But for everything else, the machine is a real pleasure. Never crash, never freezes. Everything runs hyper smoothly, even VEP (but it’s true I do not use huge templates). 

I have hesitated at the beginning wether sending it back or not, because of the speakers problem, the I decided to keep it, hoping they will end up with a solution at some point via an update, as it’s definitely (well that’s my opinion) a software bug, a problem of communication between elements-hardware problem would occur all the time. And if there’s no solution, we’ll the machine works better than my 2015 iMac, so at home with my Fireface it may end up replace it. 

The other thing I worried about was Catalina (I still run Mojave on the iMac). But the problem with Steinberg key (a main thing for me, as I use mostly Steinberg and VSL) has been fixed a fortnight ago, and no error message anymore (before this update of the elicenser, you had to unplug and replug the dongle from time to time).

Last thing a bit annoying: you have to buy an adaptator for all the usb connexions, but with hubs connected to the adaptator it works well. 

Hope this can help!

Benjamin


----------



## AndyP

BenjaminParis said:


> Hi,
> 
> I can share my experience as I bought one about a month ago. I9 model with 64 Go and the upper graphic card.
> 
> If I start with the issue: yes, I have one with the sound when working with the internal speakers. Strangely it happens only when I work on music project, when I run Cubase, Dorico, VSL or Kontakt. It happens often but not always, that is weird. Weird too: I have no problem if I listen to music, either mp3 or a video on YouTube.
> 
> If I plug headphones: no problem at all, even with Cubase, etc.
> 
> If I plug my RME Fireface 802: no problem at all, even with Cubase, etc.
> 
> So that is very annoying this speaker problem when you’re working in music, especially with a « mobile » solution. But for everything else, the machine is a real pleasure. Never crash, never freezes. Everything runs hyper smoothly, even VEP (but it’s true I do not use huge templates).
> 
> I have hesitated at the beginning wether sending it back or not, because of the speakers problem, the I decided to keep it, hoping they will end up with a solution at some point via an update, as it’s definitely (well that’s my opinion) a software bug, a problem of communication between elements-hardware problem would occur all the time. And if there’s no solution, we’ll the machine works better than my 2015 iMac, so at home with my Fireface it may end up replace it.
> 
> The other thing I worried about was Catalina (I still run Mojave on the iMac). But the problem with Steinberg key (a main thing for me, as I use mostly Steinberg and VSL) has been fixed a fortnight ago, and no error message anymore (before this update of the elicenser, you had to unplug and replug the dongle from time to time).
> 
> Last thing a bit annoying: you have to buy an adaptator for all the usb connexions, but with hubs connected to the adaptator it works well.
> 
> Hope this can help!
> 
> Benjamin


Thanks for the insight! 
I am increasingly encountering problems on my MacBook 2013 which is limited to 16 GB RAM.
Since I work most of the time on the MacBook (a shame because there is more than enough horsepower in the studio) I need a solution.
The internal speakers wouldn't be my problem as I always have a small set of mobile speakers with me.
My biggest concern is the internal S2 chip which has caused problems for many users, especially with usb audio interfaces.


----------



## BenjaminParis

AndyP said:


> Thanks for the insight!
> I am increasingly encountering problems on my MacBook 2013 which is limited to 16 GB RAM.
> Since I work most of the time on the MacBook (a shame because there is more than enough horsepower in the studio) I need a solution.
> The internal speakers wouldn't be my problem as I always have a small set of mobile speakers with me.
> My biggest concern is the internal S2 chip which has caused problems for many users, especially with usb audio interfaces.


I heard-and I confirm with my own experience-as far as the Fireface (and probably Rme gear in general) is concerned the issue seems solved


----------



## sIR dORT

I just the 16-inch w/ 64 gigs of ram and the best processor and my plan is to set up a 250 track template in Cubase (w/o VEP) that will consist of mostly EWHO (strings diamond, rest gold) for the orchestra, a bunch of Kontakt libs, and some Omnisphere. I'll most likely disable things like woodwinds as to save CPU, but besides that, do you guys think this is a good size for the amount of ram I have?


----------



## sourcefor

sIR dORT said:


> I just the 16-inch w/ 64 gigs of ram and the best processor and my plan is to set up a 250 track template in Cubase (w/o VEP) that will consist of mostly EWHO (strings diamond, rest gold) for the orchestra, a bunch of Kontakt libs, and some Omnisphere. I'll most likely disable things like woodwinds as to save CPU, but besides that, do you guys think this is a good size for the amount of ram I have?


Yes the ram is the same idea I had..64gb should get you through..you can always use the PURGE function in Kontakt as well!


----------



## Bassious

Took delivery last friday. 16 inch, i9 with boost, 8gig video, 64 gig of RAM and 8TB drive. Running cubase 10.5, live 10, UA Apollo stuff at the front. VSTs are komplete 11, EW composer cloud, superior drummer 3 and likely stuffing Spectrasonics stuff in too from PC slave, VE pro 6 and various bits and bobs. Good so far but the fans do come on hard when its working. Unit was a compromise for me because the internal SSDs seem competitively priced and cpu and RAM get the job done. My PC slave is 2012 so this gives me redundancy and some portability. Plays nice with my hardware and video editing in final cut too. Still have to tweak my VE pro setup (also have a new mac mini with 64 gig RAM but only 1TB) so things are kind of in flux. The TB3 only is a PITA as one of them is used for charging so my audio and usb inputs look like a bowl of spaghetti.
What else do you want to know?
Cheers


----------



## sourcefor

Bassious said:


> Took delivery last friday. 16 inch, i9 with boost, 8gig video, 64 gig of RAM and 8TB drive. Running cubase 10.5, live 10, UA Apollo stuff at the front. VSTs are komplete 11, EW composer cloud, superior drummer 3 and likely stuffing Spectrasonics stuff in too from PC slave, VE pro 6 and various bits and bobs. Good so far but the fans do come on hard when its working. Unit was a compromise for me because the internal SSDs seem competitively priced and cpu and RAM get the job done. My PC slave is 2012 so this gives me redundancy and some portability. Plays nice with my hardware and video editing in final cut too. Still have to tweak my VE pro setup (also have a new mac mini with 64 gig RAM but only 1TB) so things are kind of in flux. The TB3 only is a PITA as one of them is used for charging so my audio and usb inputs look like a bowl of spaghetti.
> What else do you want to know?
> Cheers


Do you think its worth it for me to upgrade to a similar machine from a 2019 15" i9 MacBook Pro? I'm just looking for the extra RAM and larger SSD.


----------



## Bassious

sourcefor said:


> Do you think its worth it for me to upgrade to a similar machine from a 2019 15" i9 MacBook Pro? I'm just looking for the extra RAM and larger SSD.


Tough call, depends. In canada mine was 9000$ with tax. From all the reviews Ive seen the new ones have a better fan setup to handle heat during high workloads so thats the biggest change other than loading in RAM and SSDs. The onboard 8 TB really is a treat as I go between various workflows (video, live record, midi arranging). If someone drops 250 GB of files on you, no problem, drop it on your desktop until later.
Downside...cubase is awkward for me with a laptop keyboard so i drag the bluetooth board over for anything other than quick audio stuff. Im still tweaking the OS cause Catalina is fussy around security. I waited til UA cleared Catalina for use. As stated most of my front end is UAD so I really didnt want to go PC unless forced. Im still not sure how much the impressive specs are hobbled for laptop use. Loading a lot of instruments, the thing sounds like a jet taking off and it still heats up. Early days, wait a bit for a more realistic assessment. But a quick answer is thats a big jump in money for issues you can work around.


----------



## sourcefor

Bassious said:


> Tough call, depends. In canada mine was 9000$ with tax. From all the reviews Ive seen the new ones have a better fan setup to handle heat during high workloads so thats the biggest change other than loading in RAM and SSDs. The onboard 8 TB really is a treat as I go between various workflows (video, live record, midi arranging). If someone drops 250 GB of files on you, no problem, drop it on your desktop until later.
> Downside...cubase is awkward for me with a laptop keyboard so i drag the bluetooth board over for anything other than quick audio stuff. Im still tweaking the OS cause Catalina is fussy around security. I waited til UA cleared Catalina for use. As stated most of my front end is UAD so I really didnt want to go PC unless forced. Im still not sure how much the impressive specs are hobbled for laptop use. Loading a lot of instruments, the thing sounds like a jet taking off and it still heats up. Early days, wait a bit for a more realistic assessment. But a quick answer is thats a big jump in money for issues you can work around.


Thanks for the Reply! I'll Have some patience and try to stretch out what I have as I'm not too sure of Catalina either! Best of Luck!


----------



## nickp

Hey guys, im considering upgrading my 2017 MacBook Pro, been lookin into the 16 inch version, I read about the issue with usb 2.0 interfaces but apparently that seems resolves from what I read with baby face pros, however, has anyone had issues with usb 2.0 midi controllers? I have a Korg pad kontrol and m audio that are usb 2.0. Any experience with this? I know one solution is to buy an expensive connector, but how about regular usb adaptors straight into the MacBook Pro, has this been an issue for anyone?

ALSO, does anyone actually find themselves able to use over 32 G of RAM for audio word with this laptop? I was told youre probably going to max out the CPU before even tapping in to all that RAM in a DAW, I know this is the case with an i7 2017 MacBook Pro, the CPU will max out before all the RAM is in use when using a DAW. I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case with an i9 and 32g of RAM. Maybe the 64 g of RAM isnt as useful for audio as It would be in a desktop with a more powerful cpu.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

nickp said:


> was told youre probably going to max out the CPU before even tapping in to all that RAM in a DAW, I know this is the case with an i7 2017 MacBook Pro, the CPU will max out before all the RAM is in use when using a DAW.



this is false information. RAM will be more affected by things such as virtual instruments. So if you’re using RAM hogs, such as EW Hollywood Orchestra Diamond, you’ll fill up your RAM long before your CPU even hiccups.


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## nickp

Yea thats what I figured, id be using synths for bass and interesting sounds in songs and some strings on occasion and figured the RAM would be of use, yet with about 24 tracks, ten of which are kontakt and others are logic VSTS, I found my cpu maxed out, not my RAM. and figured maybe the proportion of CPU maxing out first before RAM could be the same on the newer laptops. I definitely know the plugins and virtual instruments use the RAM but I usually see desktop users using all that RAM with Much more capable CPUs. So in laptop world I was wondering if the CPU could even be strong enough to handle a workload where 40 gigs of RAM where being used in logic for example. yes if the RAM is needed It could be used, but maybe its likely the CPU itself is maxed before you even have a chance to use the RAM on a MacBook i9.

Iv seen people with the i9 on YouTube for what its worth, max out their MacBook Pros with lets say 50-90 tracks, but its their CPU that is overloaded and causes the maxing out, not the RAM, and this is with ram heavy synths/instruments. So I questioned if the RAM is even fully tapped into when most peoples laptops are maxing out. Seemed like the CPU is the first bottle neck and limiter and usually not the RAM


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## Jon W

unclecheeks said:


> c) the touchpad is RIDICULOUSLY huge and obstructive


Hear, hear.


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## unclecheeks

nickp said:


> Yea thats what I figured, id be using synths for bass and interesting sounds in songs and some strings on occasion and figured the RAM would be of use, yet with about 24 tracks, ten of which are kontakt and others are logic VSTS, I found my cpu maxed out, not my RAM. and figured maybe the proportion of CPU maxing out first before RAM could be the same on the newer laptops. I definitely know the plugins and virtual instruments use the RAM but I usually see desktop users using all that RAM with Much more capable CPUs. So in laptop world I was wondering if the CPU could even be strong enough to handle a workload where 40 gigs of RAM where being used in logic for example. yes if the RAM is needed It could be used, but maybe its likely the CPU itself is maxed before you even have a chance to use the RAM on a MacBook i9.
> 
> Iv seen people with the i9 on YouTube for what its worth, max out their MacBook Pros with lets say 50-90 tracks, but its their CPU that is overloaded and causes the maxing out, not the RAM, and this is with ram heavy synths/instruments. So I questioned if the RAM is even fully tapped into when most peoples laptops are maxing out. Seemed like the CPU is the first bottle neck and limiter and usually not the RAM



Depending on how an instrument is scripted, even ones that you’d think would be using mostly RAM can be quite CPU hungry. Some Kontakt instruments when playing back a lot of voices can still hit the CPU hard and cause dropouts. CPU usage is also dynamic, again depending on how many operations/voices are at play, with RAM its much easier to quantify a ceiling - it’s like a box, if the box is big enough, your stuff will fit in there.

I too considered the new MBPs but finally settled on a 2018 6-core 3.2ghz i7 Mac mini. Price was much better for what you get. And the higher clock speed really helps - I’d rather have fewer cores with higher clock speed than the other way around. I’ll still continue to use my 2014 MBP as a mobile machine - it’s fine for sketching and can get 80% of the way there for heavier sessions - but I’m happy I chose the Mac mini as a studio machine.


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## nickp

honestly I keep stumbling upon videos of people having issues with their 16 inch mbp and how apple tells them there arent fixes, that along with usb 2.0 connectivity risks on certain devices, loud fans during record ETC , makes me second guess a new mbp daily. 
Iv seen multiple videos of people upgrading 21 and 27 inch iMacs with i9 processors, new SSD, more RAM. you can buy a thousand dollar 21 inch base model and do those upgrades for half the price of a moderately upgraded mbp. I just dont know if there are issues with future OS with those upgrades. But if there isnt, kinda seems easily do able. Especially if I could get a local computer tech to do it. I dont use my laptop to work on music in cars and trains ETC. its at home anyways. a 21 inch screen is pretty portable for my needs.


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## unclecheeks

nickp said:


> honestly I keep stumbling upon videos of people having issues with their 16 inch mbp and how apple tells them there arent fixes, that along with usb 2.0 connectivity risks on certain devices, loud fans during record ETC , makes me second guess a new mbp daily.
> Iv seen multiple videos of people upgrading 21 and 27 inch iMacs with i9 processors, new SSD, more RAM. you can buy a thousand dollar 21 inch base model and do those upgrades for half the price of a moderately upgraded mbp. I just dont know if there are issues with future OS with those upgrades. But if there isnt, kinda seems easily do able. Especially if I could get a local computer tech to do it. I dont use my laptop to work on music in cars and trains ETC. its at home anyways. a 21 inch screen is pretty portable for my needs.



Thats the other thing that turned me off to the 16s: that it would only run catalina+. Was shocked to only just learn about the fact that apple hardware can only run the os that was current at time of release and onwards... With all the different pieces of older software from small devs that I rely on, I have 0 interest in rolling the dice wit Catalina.

An upgraded iMac could be a good option. I used a 2010 some years ago - ram was super simple upgrade, ssd not so much, but doable if you’re careful. Don’t know how upgradeable the new ones are.

One thing to keep in mind with the iMacs is that the fans are literally 2-3 feet from your face. That used to really bug me on my 2010, when I’d start pushing the thing and fans go full blast... with my MBP and now the Mac mini, I stash them in my closet with some long cables and shut the door, dead quiet!


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## Jeremy Spencer

unclecheeks said:


> I too considered the new MBPs but finally settled on a 2018 6-core 3.2ghz i7 Mac mini. Price was much better for what you get. And the higher clock speed really helps - I’d rather have fewer cores with higher clock speed than the other way around. I’ll still continue to use my 2014 MBP as a mobile machine - it’s fine for sketching and can get 80% of the way there for heavier sessions - but I’m happy I chose the Mac mini as a studio machine.



Good to hear. It’s on my radar as an upgrade option.


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## Michael Antrum

I replaced my old MacBook Pro with a PC laptop, though I still prefer OSX, I bought a Razer Blade 15" and upgraded the RAM to 64gb and internal NvME SSD to 2tb myself.

I got a good deal on the laptop and the total cost including the upgrades was under £ 2k. The equivalent MacPro would have been £ 4k, albeit with an i9 rather than an i7 processor.

I still would prefer to boot up to OSX, and the battery life on the Razer is not good (but then of course, I just plug it in !), but half the price ? The Razer is a premium laptop too, thin and sleek with an excellent screen.

If the MacBook Pro was user upgradeable for RAM/SSD, I would have happily paid the premium, but when they gouge you so badly on these items, well I'm happy to put up with Windows 10 and take the family on a rather nice holiday with the price difference.


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## sourcefor

Yeah I took the plunge and got a 16” MacBook Pro from the Apple refurb store ...I saved a few bucks but it was still pretty pricey! I got the 2.4ghz i9 with 64g ram and 2 tb storage. I love the computer, the keyboard is a bit better than the last model I had and the Machine does seem a bit more powerful than my 2019 which I sold to buy this one! I wish it was not so expensive but Windows is not an option as I use logic and have too many old projects in logic and frankly hate windows, so I’m kinda stuck. I tried Cubase but it’s too cluttered for me and there are too many windows to go thru to do one thing. But I also feel this machine will last me a bit longer than the last machine so hopefully we will see! The one thing is that I still get pops and clicks and sample rate errors even when my cpu is at 25% so I’m not sure what is causing this, so I say tread with caution when buying a new computer and get what is going to fit into your workflow! I used to travel a lot before all the c19 happenings or I probably would have bought a Mac mini which I feel is plenty powerful! Anyway just wanted to see if any of this would help!


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## Michael Antrum

I'm a Dorico/Cubase user, so it wasn't too much of a wrench to move to Windows, but if the price had been anywhere near, I'd have gone with a MacBook Pro. Double was a bit too much for me to swallow.

Must admit, though, that as far as mobile composition goes, it's Staffpad for me now. In fact if Staffpad had been out when I'd bought the Razer at the end of last year I'd wouldn't have bought it.

Staffpad (sometimes to Dorico) to Cubase is the way of things for me now.


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## nickp

sourcefor said:


> Yeah I took the plunge and got a 16” MacBook Pro from the Apple refurb store ...I saved a few bucks but it was still pretty pricey! I got the 2.4ghz i9 with 64g ram and 2 tb storage. I love the computer, the keyboard is a bit better than the last model I had and the Machine does seem a bit more powerful than my 2019 which I sold to buy this one! I wish it was not so expensive but Windows is not an option as I use logic and have too many old projects in logic and frankly hate windows, so I’m kinda stuck. I tried Cubase but it’s too cluttered for me and there are too many windows to go thru to do one thing. But I also feel this machine will last me a bit longer than the last machine so hopefully we will see! The one thing is that I still get pops and clicks and sample rate errors even when my cpu is at 25% so I’m not sure what is causing this, so I say tread with caution when buying a new computer and get what is going to fit into your workflow! I used to travel a lot before all the c19 happenings or I probably would have bought a Mac mini which I feel is plenty powerful! Anyway just wanted to see if any of this would help!



this is one of my worries, audio glitches and so forth, iv read those glitches tend to be mostly on the laptop speakers and not so much when you use monitors. And I have read apple said its a software glitch and for some people it did go away yet with some it never did, others manage to return about 3 MacBooks until finding one that didnt have those issues, which is weird, because then that makes it seem like a hardware issue. Iv also read the fan goes up to 50 dbs of loudness which is I think a problem for me. Iv heard of sound glitches at 44 hz and fixing it by moving up the sample are, yet it comes back. But again that might be only with internal MacBook speakers.


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## nickp

unclecheeks said:


> Thats the other thing that turned me off to the 16s: that it would only run catalina+. Was shocked to only just learn about the fact that apple hardware can only run the os that was current at time of release and onwards... With all the different pieces of older software from small devs that I rely on, I have 0 interest in rolling the dice wit Catalina.
> 
> An upgraded iMac could be a good option. I used a 2010 some years ago - ram was super simple upgrade, ssd not so much, but doable if you’re careful. Don’t know how upgradeable the new ones are.
> 
> One thing to keep in mind with the iMacs is that the fans are literally 2-3 feet from your face. That used to really bug me on my 2010, when I’d start pushing the thing and fans go full blast... with my MBP and now the Mac mini, I stash them in my closet with some long cables and shut the door, dead quiet!


 btw , would you say iMac fans are louder than the MacBooks, or loud at all?


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## unclecheeks

nickp said:


> btw , would you say iMac fans are louder than the MacBooks, or loud at all?



It’s been 5-6 years since I did any serious work on the iMac (now I just use it as an external display for the MBP and the mini), so don’t recall how it compares to my MBP fans... But I do remember being really annoyed by it at the time. I’m also super sensitive to any studio noise, so ymmv. This was also a 2010 quad i5, so I expect the newer more powerful machines probably have a lot more horses before the fans kick on (and hopefully better fan/thermal design!) If you have access to an iMac at some point, open Terminal, then type “yes” and enter. This will essentially max out all the cores and after a minute or so you should get the fans going on full blast. This, in addition to Intel Power Gadget for monitoring clock speeds/throttling while maxing out the cpu, is actually a great set of performance diagnostics to run on any Mac.


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## sourcefor

nickp said:


> this is one of my worries, audio glitches and so forth, iv read those glitches tend to be mostly on the laptop speakers and not so much when you use monitors. And I have read apple said its a software glitch and for some people it did go away yet with some it never did, others manage to return about 3 MacBooks until finding one that didnt have those issues, which is weird, because then that makes it seem like a hardware issue. Iv also read the fan goes up to 50 dbs of loudness which is I think a problem for me. Iv heard of sound glitches at 44 hz and fixing it by moving up the sample are, yet it comes back. But again that might be only with internal MacBook speakers.


Yeah I dont get any speaker glitches I just get sample rate not recognized and cpu spikes in logic..the speakers are actually very good..I think the cpu spikes and sample rate are software related!


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## jcrosby

nickp said:


> this is one of my worries, audio glitches and so forth, iv read those glitches tend to be mostly on the laptop speakers and not so much when you use monitors. And I have read apple said its a software glitch and for some people it did go away yet with some it never did, others manage to return about 3 MacBooks until finding one that didnt have those issues, which is weird, because then that makes it seem like a hardware issue. Iv also read the fan goes up to 50 dbs of loudness which is I think a problem for me. Iv heard of sound glitches at 44 hz and fixing it by moving up the sample are, yet it comes back. But again that might be only with internal MacBook speakers.


When I had glitching it was system wide. I.e. it wasn't isolated to the speakers. Eventually it blew out the MBP's speakers. Fun times


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## nickp

unclecheeks said:


> It’s been 5-6 years since I did any serious work on the iMac (now I just use it as an external display for the MBP and the mini), so don’t recall how it compares to my MBP fans... But I do remember being really annoyed by it at the time. I’m also super sensitive to any studio noise, so ymmv. This was also a 2010 quad i5, so I expect the newer more powerful machines probably have a lot more horses before the fans kick on (and hopefully better fan/thermal design!) If you have access to an iMac at some point, open Terminal, then type “yes” and enter. This will essentially max out all the cores and after a minute or so you should get the fans going on full blast. This, in addition to Intel Power Gadget for monitoring clock speeds/throttling while maxing out the cpu, is actually a great set of performance diagnostics to run on any Mac.


yea I downloaded intel power gadget the other day , it wont open though, tells me there is an error, I was really looking forward to checking out how my current laptop was working, unfortunately there doesnt seem to be any online support from intel in regards to this .


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## nickp

jcrosby said:


> When I had glitching it was system wide. I.e. it wasn't isolated to the speakers. Eventually it blew out the MBP's speakers. Fun times


yikes, on the new MacBook Pro 16 inch? Im actually now lookin into pc builds and window built laptops specifically made for audio production. Im trying to see what will be the most headache free option right now...


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## jcrosby

nickp said:


> yikes, on the new MacBook Pro 16 inch? Im actually now lookin into pc builds and window built laptops specifically made for audio production. Im trying to see what will be the most headache free option right now...


No, 2018 15 inch. Although I set money aside last year for a 16 inch I won't buy one after all the issues I've had with mine, coupled with the sketchy fan issues and mess Catalina still seems to be for some...

This place does 'pro audio' Windows laptops.


https://www.adkproaudio.com/audio-video-production-computers/music-production-laptops


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