# Opinions and defending positions. RE: Spitfire Email Thread



## Daniel James (Oct 18, 2017)

Hey all,

So I guess most of us caught the Spitfire email drama on sample talk recently and it got me thinking about a few things, most namely opinions and defending of positions.

Now in that thread I made a statement which I was well aware would not necessarily sit well with everyone. This is a small community and lots of people have interconnected friendships and personal biases in certain directions. I was prepared for that and I felt very strongly in my ability to defend my position.

Reading back through the thread I can see many times where the conversation starts to go off track and it becomes less about the point and more about the individual. A bit of backstory... I was raised with what what one can only describe as an intellectual troll for a father who, whenever I would make a statement, would make me back it up or he wouldn't listen. At first he would wipe the floor with me in the debates (even if he didn't believe his own argument the shit  ) but it all changed for me when he told me a few bits of advice. Firstly was to argue the point not the person, and if they get personal the debate is already over, they have proven unwilling to debate the point so state your opinion one last time and (to paraphrase) tell them to fuck off. The latter I am still trying to learn better because I noticed that when someone attacks me rather than the point I stay on point but I can feel the venom seeping into the sentences. I am aware of it so I will improve.

Now I have long been a believer in holding opinions of your own and even more so in defending things you say, however one thing I noticed is that some people here seem to think that any criticism of something they like or a person they are friends with is some form of personal attack and the whole thing turns into a shit show as we have seen a few times. Posts that address legitimate points from either side are met with personal digs and swipes at the posters character as like it in in politics where no one argues the point, only the legitimacy of the opponent to say it.

I don't know how everyone else feels about this but I have already had people tell me they will no longer purchase my libraries. My videos suck. And that I am a hack. All of which were only said to me after one of these threads. So I guess what I am getting at here is....where should I go from here. I try to help the community here as much as I can when I am able, sometimes this manifests in being 'the bad guy' and saying the unpopular opinion so that it can be debated on its merit and the issue at hand can be addressed and maybe even improved. But on the other I am fully aware (as is my email inbox) of the ill will I am generating towards me.

I know that I could absolutely let things go, not post, and allow every thread I disagree with to become an echo chamber love in where all contributors to that thread will be happy and content then move on with their day. But there is this real deep part of who I am that craves to see betterment and improvement, not just for me but also for others even if that means saying things people don't want to hear.

How do you guys feel about this? Should I just let all of this shit go and stop holding opposing opinions or should I be the bad guy when needed to raise discussion that could potentially help improve certain things in the longterm, even if I am generating ill will against me. I honestly don't know.

-DJ


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## leon chevalier (Oct 18, 2017)

Hey Daniel, haven't read all the "spitfire" thread, but I would advise you to stay behind the -Don't like it ? Don't say it publicly- line.
Because at the end of the day, people rarely change their mind and all those times are wasted, like tears in rain.

After I got involved in this kind of forum debate, I always feel bad and think to myself : You idiot, you should have spend this precious time playing with your son...

Whatever you choose, learn from this and carry on.

All the best,

Leon


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## Daniel James (Oct 18, 2017)

leon chevalier said:


> Hey Daniel, haven't read all the "spitfire" thread, but I would advise you to stay behind the -Don't like it ? Don't say it publicly- line.
> Because at the end of the day, people rarely change their mind and all those times are wasted, like tears in rain.
> 
> After I got involved in this kind of forum debate, I always feel bad and think to myself : You idiot, you should have spend this precious time playing with your son...
> ...



Yeah that's what it seems this place would prefer. I only worry that without discussion we may be accepting mediocrity for the sake of peoples feelings.

-DJ


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## gregh (Oct 18, 2017)

I have found that the forum tools that allow you to block or ignore people are very handy - not so much here, but elsewhere. If you find yourself repeatedly wasting time arguing with a person online and getting nowhere then block or de-friend them. Internet discussions aren't really discussions in the usual traditional sense.


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## fiestared (Oct 18, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> Hey all,
> 
> So I guess most of us caught the Spitfire email drama on sample talk recently and it got me thinking about a few things, most namely opinions and defending of positions.
> 
> ...


Hi Daniel,
Thanks for this post, I've learn lots of interresting things in it(your father was right, even If sometimes hard... mine had the same attitude with me, and the more I get older the more I understand him). I must say that I totally share everything you wrote, Again Thank you for your post and congrats on your very good work...


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## Daniel James (Oct 18, 2017)

gregh said:


> I have found that the forum tools that allow you to block or ignore people are very handy - not so much here, but elsewhere. If you find yourself repeatedly wasting time arguing with a person online and getting nowhere then block or de-friend them. Internet discussions aren't really discussions in the usual traditional sense.



This I don't think I want to do. I don't believe in hiding from opinions that oppose mine but I am aware not everyone enjoys having what they believe challenged.

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Oct 18, 2017)

fiestared said:


> Hi Daniel,
> Thanks for this post, I've learn lots of interresting things in it(your father was right, even If sometimes hard... mine had the same attitude with me, and the more I get older the more I understand him). I must say that I totally share everything you wrote, Again Thank you for your post and congrats on your very good work...



Thanks mate I appreciate it, glad to hear I am not alone with it 

-DJ


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## brett (Oct 18, 2017)

I like the honesty. I like critical well reasoned argument. I don't think that automatic praise or criticism without context is helpful. If we keep it measured and don't feel like we have to respond to slights and attacks it becomes obvious very quickly who is constructive and who is stirring. 

Sometimes it's best to let some comments go through to the keeper...


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## gregh (Oct 18, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> This I don't think I want to do. I don't believe in hiding from opinions that oppose mine but I am aware not everyone enjoys having what they believe challenged.
> 
> -DJ


 It is not a matter of hiding from opposition, more a matter of not wasting time in fruitless conflict.


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## mcalis (Oct 19, 2017)

Hey Daniel. I really value your straight-shooting honesty on VI, so let me return the favour and tell you honestly what I think would be best to do.

I don't think you should back off completely. It's clear to me you care about the topics being discussed here on VI and are eager to share your opinion, I don't think you should force yourself to give that up. That said, there have been times however were it would've been better for you to bow out a little earlier. Not because I am tired of hearing what you have to say but because, frankly, it's probably a waste of _your _time. There's a threshold in every thread where the topic just spirals out of control or goes off into a tangent. Try to bow out before that happens 

As for people calling you a hack or threatening not to buy your products simply because you're hardcore with your opinions is... well, that's their decision really.

If you'll allow me a short tangent: I watched an interview with the author Scott Orson Card yesterday. Super interesting guy, but the comment section was filled with remarks about his personal beliefs. Personally, I couldn't care less about his privately held beliefs. He writes good books, I read them, that's all there is to it for me. Point being: I can't tell you what the best move is business-wise, but I wouldn't ever decide for or against buying from someone depending on what their personal beliefs are. As long as the product is good, the company's policy is good, and their price is fair, that's all I care about. Can't speak for others, obviously, but even if I disagreed with everything you said, you wouldn't lose a customer in me if I think your product is good


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## Daniel James (Oct 19, 2017)

gregh said:


> It is not a matter of hiding from opposition, more a matter of not wasting time in fruitless conflict.



Fair point. I think i'll reserve that for people who take it too far. So far I can't think of anyone who has crossed that line.

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Oct 19, 2017)

mcalis said:


> Hey Daniel. I really value your straight-shooting honesty on VI, so let me return the favour and tell you honestly what I think would be best to do.
> 
> I don't think you should back off completely. It's clear to me you care about the topics being discussed here on VI and are eager to share your opinion, I don't think you should force yourself to give that up. That said, there have been times however were it would've been better for you to bow out a little earlier. Not because I am tired of hearing what you have to say but because, frankly, it's probably a waste of _your _time. There's a threshold in every thread where the topic just spirals out of control or goes off into a tangent. Try to bow out before that happens
> 
> ...



I totally agree with this point. I have had some very serious disagreements personally with some developers however they create incredible libraries and I only hurt myself by lying to myself about that fact. 

-DJ


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## fiestared (Oct 19, 2017)

el,


Daniel James said:


> Hey all,
> 
> So I guess most of us caught the Spitfire email drama on sample talk recently and it got me thinking about a few things, most namely opinions and defending of positions.
> 
> ...


Hey Daniel,
Only ONE word : "Jealousy"
When things get too twisted, the only very simple answer is to stay "who you are" : Daniel James


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## Jdiggity1 (Oct 19, 2017)

As a general comment and not directed solely at DJ, I give a +1 for the bowing out early advice.
Your initial post will almost always say all that is needed to be said. By all means, edit the initial post, but filling up pages just to 'clarify' things is only feeding those who seemingly get off at a bit of back-and-forth, which gets terribly tiring and is often when I decide to ignore a thread.

There is no doubt that you have influence Daniel, both on consumers and thus the developers/vendors. So I would encourage you to speak up when something needs to be spoken.

And thank you for doing so.


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## markleake (Oct 19, 2017)

Hi Daniel. It's interesting how such a simple thing as a conversation about a marketing email can be so polarizing. I read the thread, but didn't feel the need to comment, as others had said what needed to be said anyway. I love SF libs, generally I'm fine with SF marketing even if others seem to dislike it, and I pretty much ignore all emails from VI devs anyway, so never saw the SF email in question.

If it helps, I didn't see read anything from you that was out of line, and I think you succeeded in presenting your feelings and reasoning fairly clearly. You were obviously annoyed by what SF had sent, as were others, and gave your reasons. Nothing at all unreasonable or close to offensive there. The worst (if you can categorize it that way) I saw from you was you calling someone out for being dismissive of your opinion and of the thread topic in general. It seems that person eventually conceded the point anyway, so it looked like there were no hard feelings.

So why would that result in people then sending you messages like you say, including hate mail? I don't think it's reasonable for people to do that as a response, but it is certainly explainable.

For as long as I've used the internet (over 20 years now!) this is the kind of response I come to expect in an open forum. How _well_ you make your case often has no impact on others - some people will respond to that, others won't, probably based on their personality type. The main thing I've learnt is if you had the exact same conversation with the exact same people _in person_, it would be a completely different reaction. The lack of personal interaction in these kind of debates does something to how we react and think as people. We are more prone to not listening, prone to being unpersuaded by ideas that don't correspond with our own, prone to over-reacting, prone to saying things to others we would never say in person, prone to thinking its a game to win, etc. This is just how we all react in this kind of arena.

In this case I think people latched on to your comments because you are the well known entity and were standing your ground, so you've became the inevitable fall guy for the people with the more irrational reactions. You were the biggest target for that kind of response. Or another way of seeing it: by you not moderating your opinion it has left some people feeling a bit powerless, so they have reacted in the one way they see as exerting some influence over you. I guess they are within their rights (to a certain extent anyway) to react that way, even if it is a bit off-colour.

I see this on twitter/reddit/forums/etc all the time. The art of _considered_ opinion and holding other people's opinions up to reasonable and fair scrutiny, and respecting others even if you don't agree - this has been lost in the digital age. We've become a society where short unbalanced opinions matter more, are heard more, and are valued more.

For what it's worth, I don't want you to stop speaking your mind. I think you've got a lot to contribute, I actually *like* what you contribute, and I've certainly learnt a lot of valuable stuff from watching your YT videos and reading your posts over the years. Far more than I can contribute here yet, still having my learner wheels on.

TLDR: People on the internet are sometimes irrational. As unfortunate as it is, we have to accept that as one of the limitations of this medium. Even so, I'm still up for hearing honest Daniel James rather than a filtered version of you.


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## babylonwaves (Oct 19, 2017)

gregh said:


> I have found that the forum tools that allow you to block or ignore people are very handy - not so much here, but elsewhere. If you find yourself repeatedly wasting time arguing with a person online and getting nowhere then block or de-friend them. Internet discussions aren't really discussions in the usual traditional sense.


same here. I come here to enjoy this place and it is easier to ignore a couple of people than spending time getting aggregated about their opinions. the blocklist is your friend


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## markleake (Oct 19, 2017)

mcalis said:


> That said, there have been times however were it would've been better for you to bow out a little earlier. Not because I am tired of hearing what you have to say but because, frankly, it's probably a waste of _your _time. There's a threshold in every thread where the topic just spirals out of control or goes off into a tangent. Try to bow out before that happens


I think this is a wise position. Its a hard lesson to learn, and difficult to know when to pull the plug sometimes, but there usually comes a point where an argument doesn't do anything except waste your time. It's at that point where it's best to bow out.


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## markleake (Oct 19, 2017)

mcalis said:


> As long as the product is good, the company's policy is good, and their price is fair, that's all I care about.


Hmmm... this only goes so far for most people I think. Often we do have a certain ethical or moral threshold where this no longer holds true. But I agree with the overall sentiment.

I only recently bought Daniel's libraries, and have yet to find the chance to even open them (sorry Daniel!!), and I can't see how the forum thread in question would really sway many people in their purchasing decisions. Certainly not mine.


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## Kuusniemi (Oct 19, 2017)

I have always been amazed how unprofessional some people in this business are. One should never take things personally when discussing such matters. Even though everything we do has a certain element of personal taste, but in such matters no one is more right than some one else. But we should always be able to discuss and challenge matters. That's the way we evolve. When we close the possibility of scrutiny, we stop evolving, we stagnate and eventually start to degrade.

Personally I try nowadays to avoid continuing a discussion if I am discussing with a blithering idiot.


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## mc_deli (Oct 19, 2017)

Respect @Daniel James 

I think "echo chamber love" is a big problem for society as we spend our time online in fora and especially on e.g. Facebook. It is really important to be honest, otherwise we are just lying to each other, and that's not healthy.

That said you have to choose your battles. In this case there were plenty of others basically making similar points. In this case you could have probably sat back and watched the car crash thread rather than driving! Perhaps, as a community, we also expect a certain "honour amongst thieves" from developers. Of course, you weren't strafing a competitor's products or people, but it's probably fair to say that it still feels awkward for the "punters".

(+1 on the mind-bending dad argumentation, anything fair game, often involving probing insecurities and throwing magnets at the moral compass.)


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## Kuusniemi (Oct 19, 2017)

And Daniel, as a personal statement: I hope you keep doing your videos and libraries. Both have been of great interest and help.


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## ctsai89 (Oct 19, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> Yeah that's what it seems this place would prefer. I only worry that without discussion we may be accepting mediocrity for the sake of peoples feelings.
> 
> -DJ



WORD.


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## pmountford (Oct 19, 2017)

What I read on the Spitfire email I actually agreed with you. I felt a little duped too by replying to them and not actually clicking on the link because I thought it was private and therefore not for my eyes. Rather disappointed by their marketing on this occasion but unlike you I didn't voice an opinion. But I'm personally glad you did. 

The mere fact that you are questioning your actions is a good point IMHO but if you're asking, I don't personally think you need to change (even if I don't necessarily agree with your views all of the time - they do tend to be passionate and thoughtful). But maybe know when to pull out a little sooner on occasion?


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## thefudgeman (Oct 19, 2017)

I never post anything. I am one of the silent voices that enjoy this forum and all the many excellent videos you make Daniel. Please keep expressing your opinions as you seem fit and let the haters hate.


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## ctsai89 (Oct 19, 2017)

thefudgeman said:


> I never post anything. I am one of the silent voices that enjoy this forum and all the many excellent videos you make Daniel. Please keep expressing your opinions as you seem fit and let the haters hate.



exactly! haters keep hatin.

viva la Daniel James!


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## tav.one (Oct 19, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> Argue the point, not the person, and if they get personal the debate is already over.



Your dad is a very wise man, thank you for this.


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## ryst (Oct 19, 2017)

Internet discussions are weird. Over the years I have learned to communicate my POV and feelings more honestly with less "filler" so I am willing to discuss things with anyone I may disagree with as long as it's honest and not personal. But I pick and choose what I may get involved in. I say, just figure out what you could have possibly done better and/or different and move on. It's just the internet. 

As far as the Spitfire discussion about the email goes, I got the email, but my brain couldn't make sense of it enough to give a shit about what the point was. 

One last thing...getting offended is a choice. And so is getting offended by the fact that someone got offended.


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 19, 2017)

Daniel mate - don't worry about it too much. Ultimately, I'd imagine most folk here value your contributions to the community. I know I've cribbed some good advice from your videos in the past.

We can't really change people's opinions both in person and online. We tend to defend our previously held beliefs rather than try to process the argument against. It's like an inbuilt defence that's hard to break. A good rule of thumb is if the forum disagreement between two individuals has gone on more than a couple of posts, the argument will only devolve into finger pointing. Time to bow out in that case.

On the subject of fathers, mine has always had the gift of being able to listen to a reasoned argument before stating something akin to: "You know what? Your way is better. I didn't think of that." How many times in life do we hear that? Rarely.

There's also the "tribal" element to consider.
I like the Spitfire products I own but I'm not massively invested. If I posted a stinging criticism of a Spitfire library - either valid or completely misguided and incorrect - I'm certain I'd receive a riposte by those who have serious investment in Spitfire. Regarding the "email thread" I think that's what happened to Daniel - he went up against the "team" to an extent.


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## Iskra (Oct 19, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> viva la Daniel James!


That would be "Daniella James". 'Viva el Daniel James', or 'Viva Daniel James' would mean the male gender. Just to clarify 

I only would reinforce the bow out thing. Good readers, respectful people and people with good manners will get the meaning of what you're saying in one or two posts, read the others, and then extract their own conclusions. People that get into unbelievable long arguments taking tangent, attacking personally and so forth because they feel ofended by what or maybe how you're saying things won't get your point or try to extract a conclusión even after a thousand posts, so not really need to argue, I guess.
Yes, the exchange of opinions is different in real life than on a fórum, each has their own rules, and that's why I think we should be extremely careful with manners and wording in the internet. Forums are really prone to misunderstandings. Plus, not all of the people here have English as their mother tongue, so that adds up to all this.
Anyway, keep honest Daniel! As others said, I really appreciate different, valuable opinions.


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## markleake (Oct 19, 2017)

Alex Fraser said:


> There's also the "tribal" element to consider.
> I like the Spitfire products I own but I'm not massively invested. If I posted a stinging criticism of a Spitfire library - either valid or completely misguided and incorrect - I'm certain I'd receive a riposte by those who have serious investment in Spitfire. Regarding the "email thread" I think that's what happened to Daniel - he went up against the "team" to an extent.


I really didn't detect any SF fanboy-ism in the thread. I've been accused of being one of them in the past just for stating my opinion that I liked their libs. In this case it looked to me like a simple case of people who just couldn't understand why people were put off by the email, vs. people who were trying to explain why they didn't like it. Not saying that wasn't some people's motivation, but it didn't seem like it played much part in that thread to me. (Unless I missed something?)


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## StillLife (Oct 19, 2017)

These forums are not just for posters, they are for silent readers too. I bet many just read to the forums and learn from it: both factual things about the music industry as to sharpen their opinion. Discussion is great for that, because it opens up new perspectives. That some people do not like a perspective that's alien to them, that's just too bad (and frankly, in my opinion, won't bring them much happiness). 
The only trouble with discussions is that arguments so often get obscured by what you called 'venom'. That's contra-productive: name calling holds no perspective on a topic at all - it truly is a waste of time. So my advice would be: please give your opinion on things! I value it and it has often made me think further. But, indeed, bow out when you can feel the venom rising in your veins (or when you find yourself having to type *** instead of actual letters...). 
As for people who let their grievances towards a person/company inform their decision to buy a certain library or not: that's just plain ch*ld*sh.


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## Hannes_F (Oct 19, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> ... so state your opinion one last time ...



This is the part - looking from a systematic point of view, nothing to do with you personally - I don't understand. What is the point of repeating any statement?

I try to never repeat the same statement/argument in one thread. Once it is written it is there for everybody to read in case they are interested, and that's it.

Exceptions are: It could be that I change my view due to another contribution, then it would make sense to contribute again. Or somebody explicitly asks to explain and expand what I originally meant. Other than that - no.

History: As I see it the word 'discussion' originally comes from 'discus' which is something round. The idea is that everybody in the circle can contribute an opinion and then everybody can make the best of it. This is very different from a controversy where everybody fight each other with the aim of winning.


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## StillLife (Oct 19, 2017)

Iskra said:


> Yes, the exchange of opinions is different in real life than on a fórum, each has their own rules, and that's why I think we should be extremely careful with manners and wording in the internet. Forums are really prone to misunderstandings. Plus, not all of the people here have English as their mother tongue, so that adds up to all this.
> .


Hear, hear!


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 19, 2017)

markleake said:


> I really didn't detect any SF fanboy-ism in the thread. I've been accused of being one of them in the past just for stating my opinion that I liked their libs. In this case it looked to me like a simple case of people who just couldn't understand why people were put off by the email, vs. people who were trying to explain why they didn't like it. Not saying that wasn't some people's motivation, but it didn't seem like it played much part in that thread to me. (Unless I missed something?)



No, you're absolutely right. That's how the thread looked to me too. The fanboy stuff wasn't on the surface, but with *any* thread on the internet, the tribal stuff is always lurking in the background. My 2c.


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## chrisr (Oct 19, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> it all changed for me when he told me a few bits of advice. Firstly was to argue the point not the person, and if they get personal the debate is already over, they have proven unwilling to debate the point so state your opinion one last time and (to paraphrase) tell them to fuck off. The latter I am still trying to learn better because I noticed that when someone attacks me rather than the point I stay on point but I can feel the venom seeping into the sentences. I am aware of it so I will improve.
> 
> -DJ



Hey Daniel,

I skim read that thread and don't really have anything to offer to the issue of the Spitfire email. Also, sorry to hear you've been getting flack via email etc...

Anyway, what I wanted to comment on was my own take on the nature of good debate (with no reference to the other thread - I really haven't read it - just referencing the above quote); firstly all parties must enter a debate in a mindset of being _genuinely prepared to change their position_. Unfortunately it's so rare that that ever happens. Yes try to argue the point and not the person, but of course in practice that's really difficult to do because unless the other guy is debating on the same principles, they will probably (and reasonably) sight something that's personal to them and invite you to comment/respond - so you may not be able to continue without some reference to the person. So, more often than not things _will_ get personal, but if they suddenly get nasty that shouldn't mean the debate is over (if you can take an insult which I'm sure you can) it just means that in the eyes of any 3rd party/audience that your own hand is strengthened and your opponents weakened. I'm quite sure the other party always knows that too and few things are as disarming as a reasoned response to an unreasonable point. So I would suggest that when things get personal, it's not necessarily that the debate is already over... and taking a step towards the other persons position at that crunch point in a debate often results in them taking two steps back towards yours.

Believe me I'm also quite capable in person of telling someone to go f*ck themselves in the eye with a rusty spoon (Nel and Alex if you're reading this on some future archive of the internet daddy doesn't necessarily approve of that language...) - and I'm only moderately good at following my own advice(!) - but anyway, thought I would chip in on the subject of what constitutes good debate, as I slightly disagree with your dad's advice about when to invite someone to FO.

Apologies if someone's already made a similar point in posts above - haven't read them I'm afraid - and I've spent too much time on here already!! I should be busy chasing PRS/publisher to find out why not a single one of 28 cue sheets is logged correctly (!!!!!!) - It's going to be a long day of copy/pasting emails for me.

btw, belated congrats on your marriage - the pictures looked wonderful - I think we have a FB friend in common, although I suspect you have about a billion(?) so no surprises there 

best,
Chris


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## J-M (Oct 19, 2017)

Hi Daniel, others have already said what I intended to. Bottom line: Stay honest to yourself, express your opinion if you want to (and explain it) and if someone doesn't even want to understand, bow out. You're only wasting your time, some people just can't be reasoned with.

PS: Keep making them videos if you have the time, they're great!


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## Tatu (Oct 19, 2017)

Daniel, I don't care that much about your music (there are some gems in there for sure  ), your libraries (I have them!) are quite good and sometimes your videos are indeed - IMO - shit.

But, I do believe you are amongst the most unbiased folks here, regardless of your status as a developer/composer/human being, since you tend to provide substance when stating an opinion, and only reach the "da fuck is this shit" -level when there's obviously something flawed at hands. And for that I respect you very much. Never change and keep on riding.


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## FinGael (Oct 19, 2017)

leon chevalier said:


> Hey Daniel, haven't read all the "spitfire" thread, but I would advise you to stay behind the -Don't like it ? Don't say it publicly- line.
> Because at the end of the day, people rarely change their mind and all those times are wasted, like tears in rain.
> 
> After I got involved in this kind of forum debate, I always feel bad and think to myself : You idiot, you should have spend this precious time playing with your son...
> ...



Good to be here today.

I'll have to disagree with your first point. My experience is that speaking out truthfully from your point of view has usually led to the best outcome. That does not mean I would talk about everything I dislike.

This may sound like I am a hard person to deal with. In real life it is quite the opposite. People I know usually value my opinions a lot, because I am not afraid to speak truthfully (from my personal point of view of course).

I think that very important is one's relationship to him-/herself. If you know yourself well enough, it usually leads to a decision, where you decide to deal with the tensions and emotional pains and conflicts inside - which almost all of us carry, instead of throwing them as emotional poison on others, as a byproduct between the lines - when stating your opinion.

From my point of view other equally important thing is to make a decision to respect others and value other views and opinions, and make it real in your life. If the respect towards others is real, it often gives you peace of mind and good vibes inside, which can have a healthy effect on how one sees him-/herself and the world. Every human is so diverse inside, and without respect for the diversity around you, it is practically impossible to accept, love and respect yourself, which I think is the foundation in a healthy and balanced relationship with yourself. It seems to tame the ego and give you abilities to be more present to others and the life happening around you, and all of this can have a positive transformative effect on how one experiences life.

In my case all of this means that most of the time I keep my opinions with myself, but if I feel in my heart or gut that something would be good to write about or say aloud, I will. My opinions are no more important than what others have, but if I feel that stating them somehow serves the totality of life in that moment, then I am ready to share. Sometimes it feels difficult at that moment, but in many cases it can be seen later on why it was important.

And everyone makes mistakes. Life is a journey, but also a learning process.

Leon, about your comment on the precious nature of time I fully agree.

Thanks also to Daniel for the opening post.


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## AdamAlake (Oct 19, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> Hey all,
> 
> So I guess most of us caught the Spitfire email drama on sample talk recently and it got me thinking about a few things, most namely opinions and defending of positions.
> 
> ...



Thanks for speaking up and not backing down.


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## robh (Oct 19, 2017)

> Firstly was to argue the point not the person. . .


THIS!
Some people who participate in the political discussion part of the forum could use this advice.

Rob


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## Nils Neumann (Oct 19, 2017)

robh said:


> THIS!
> Some people who participate in the political discussion part of the forum could use this advice.
> 
> Rob


just don't enter this dark place


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## synthpunk (Oct 19, 2017)

Did your father also teach you to call people F****** or C**** Daniel ?



Daniel James said:


> Hey all,
> 
> So I guess most of us caught the Spitfire email drama on sample talk recently and it got me thinking about a few things, most namely opinions and defending of positions.
> 
> ...


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## robh (Oct 19, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Did your father also teach you to call people F****** or C**** Daniel ?


He did say he was ". . .aware of it so I will improve."


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## storyteller (Oct 19, 2017)

This may sound like it is coming completely out of a far distant perspective than reality, but bear with me for a moment...

Everything *and everyone* in this world is presently experiencing a turbulent time (no matter how perfect a life may seem on a surface level). Regardless of religious, scientific, or cultural bias - the fact remains that humanity is going through a giant “shedding of the skin” much like a snake does when it outgrows its physical limitations. Everyone is reacting differently, metaphorically like teenagers growing into adults. Some people are triggered by certain words or actions. Some people are holding onto something they should let go. Some people are singing kumbaya and pretending that the reality of the situation is non-existent. None of these reactions are wrong - they are just the ways individuals are dealing with the energy in the present moment. But in this specific point of time for humanity, this transition of shedding is happening from the inside out. It isn’t obvious at first, since it isn’t outright observable. But if you look around the world, you will see it. You will see it in politics, in the news. You will see it in the shift of your own inner-desire to help others (e.g. bring about change) and the seemingly large divide between what you view as helping when others view it as heresy and/or hurt. In hindsight, this shift will become very obvious in the time to come.

But *everyone* is going through it. To know that each individual - yourself, myself included - is experiencing this same expansion means that every conversation, every dialogue needs to be approached _not_ from a first-person persepctive, but from a third person perspective - where you can observe your own reactions (which is actually what you are doing by starting this thread) to the reactions of others... recognizing that everyone is either cranky, triggered, wincing, oblivious, or in complete denial of this “shedding” in the present moment. The _key_ is to close the gap of the period of time it takes for hindsight to kick in versus the immediate moment of the conversation. That is when there is a mastery in overcoming the transition. But to do so means that conversations have to be treated like a teacher/student, student/teacher relationship, where each person engaged in the conversation is transitioning seamlessly between being the teacher and the student.

*I’ve always said the greatest teacher in the room is actually the greatest student,* because only the greatest student can understand how to best teach the hand that he/she has been dealt in the given moment. If a person cannot “explain it like I’m five,” chances are that person needs to go back and understand the situation better... either that or the other person is only four and a greater mastery of words, metaphors, and/or teaching methods need to take place. So maybe that will help. If the person you are speaking to doesn’t know you or your moral compass, then you have only a matter of a few words to convey something that can positively bring about change. Imagine they are a child - your child... how could you be their best guide?


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## synthpunk (Oct 19, 2017)

I couldn't really stomach reading the entire thing. Thanks.



robh said:


> He did say he was ". . .aware of it so I will improve."


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## Mike Greene (Oct 19, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> I don't know how everyone else feels about this but I have already had people tell me they will no longer purchase my libraries.


Welcome to the world of business.  I used to be a lot more free-wheeling with what I would say here, but when I started Realitone, I had to be a bit more cautious. Glass houses and all that.

Back in the day, I used to post a lot of, shall we say, "honest" reviews of libraries I bought. One in particular was a less than flattering review of East West's "Voices of Passion." The next year I announced Realivox. To this day, xxx thinks my earlier review of VOP was all part of a master plan to boost Realivox. (Fun fact: you might notice that East West no longer advertises here, now that I am the owner. Yep, even buying the forum has had consequences. Interestingly, after my newsletter, the list of "Unsubscribes" was a who's who of people with grudges against me for either Realitone issues or for things I've done on the forum as moderator or owner.)

I'm not saying you shouldn't post what you believe. Personally, I *like* that you post so honestly. The vast majority of people understand that your opinions have nothing to do with trying to slam a competitor for your own benefit, so I wouldn't worry too much about lost sales.

People do have a tendency to react, though, so in the same way that many people voiced their displeasure to Christian's email by saying they unsubscribed to Spitfire's newsletter, people might say similar things about HybridTwo if they're displeased with what you write. It's kinda the same thing IMO, because either reaction could be perceived as an overreaction.

Hmmm, I'm not sure what my point is, because I started this post by saying you need to be careful what you say, but now I'm thinking it doesn't really matter all that much, because people get mad in the heat of the moment, but ultimately, they're not _really_ going to make a purchase decision based on some forum squabble. So ... just keep doin' what you're doin'.


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## tav.one (Oct 19, 2017)

Mike Greene said:


> now that I am the owner.



That is great, is there a thread where this was announced, discussed?
And how do I subscribe to the Newsletter?


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## Mike Greene (Oct 19, 2017)

itstav said:


> That is great, is there a thread where this was announced, discussed?
> And how do I subscribe to the Newsletter?


The takeover was announced here:
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/and-then-this-happened.63206/

All members should automatically have gotten the newsletter. I don't want to hijack Daniel's thread, so I sent you a PM to confirm the address we have for you.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 19, 2017)

Mike Greene said:


> Interestingly, after my newsletter, the list of "Unsubscribes" was a who's who of people with grudges against me for either Realitone issues or for things I've done on the forum as moderator or owner.)



Just want to make clear that although I am no longer participating here, (with this exception) I do still read what is here and while the reason I no longer participate is indeed due to my strong disagreement as to how moderation is handled, none of it is personal to Mike or a grudge against him. I consider him a friend and always enjoy talking to him, and I love his products. I respect him greatly.

We are just very different people with very different views about what should be considered acceptable forum behavior.


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## NoamL (Oct 19, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> I don't know how everyone else feels about this but I have already had people tell me they will no longer purchase my libraries. My videos suck. And that I am a hack.



Well if that is your main concern.. Don't take such things seriously, the world is full of people "boycotting" things they weren't going to buy anyway. Trolls gonna troll.

Apart from that, I value your honest contributions/reviews.

However, like several people have said already, there is not much point to arguing on the Net or reacting to every criticism and getting drawn into meta arguments (in the context of that Spitfire thread, that would be the people fake-nicely asking you "Why are you so offended I just don't understand please explain!!!!"). I just say my piece and move on.


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## givemenoughrope (Oct 19, 2017)

I wouldn't sweat it. Just keep doing what you're doing. I'm a fan.


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## Greg (Oct 19, 2017)

This is the last place I would go for constructive respectful arguments about music or the industry. It always turns into bitchy banter that is a complete waste of time. I think you should do what Mike Verta did and start your own group / forum. Or just keep focusing on your music and career. Some people here are incredibly bitter especially if you don't like what they like.


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## Vastman (Oct 19, 2017)

You are a rare bird, DJ...and I luv you for being who you are...

Conversely, the internet gives a voice to the few people who are "punks", trolls, jealous little brain dead douchebags...I've tried to stop saying that, "assholes are everywhere these days!" as it just _appears_ this way...most people are pretty smart and value well reasoned arguements as they are important...yours have always been, so keep it up!

I agree with other thoughtful folk who've suggested ignoring the idiots. That's NOT easy though...they make me wanna puke and argue back, lest their often stupid points go unchallenged. On the SF thread I posted a long position about my concerns and edited it a few times for clarity but resisted jumping back into the Frey, which is what trolls seem to want us to do... I found myself writing another response but not posting it...as it didn't add anything new and everything had been said. I do this more often these days as jerks generally don't listen and at that point I'm wasting my energy.

I DID love some of your followups which took numbnuts to task for stupid comments like, "what are you upset about?" after you'd clearly articulated points of concern to many of us. Bang up job!

As to language, I get lots of grief from my 16 yr old daughter over word choices...but worrying about offending folks can go too far and generally they're overly pious folks anyway. The dust up about someone using the words "fucking awesome" in the latest Star Trek Discovery show is a case in point... Personally I can't think of two better words to describe the interlocking mycellial web of life tieing the universe together! Idiots whining about words while we're trashing the planet!

We live in a messed up world Trump??? Climate change ain't real??? All we can do is stay true to ourselves, remain open to new and reasonable insights, adjust our perspectives when given new data, recognize there is room for different perspectives...*and stand up to bullshit*.

YOU do that EXTREMELY well... wish there were more like you...


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## gregh (Oct 19, 2017)

Vastman said:


> You are a rare bird, DJ...and I luv you for being who you are...
> I've tried to stop saying that, "assholes are everywhere these days!" as it just _appears_ this way.



I like to keep in mind that there are more assholes than there are people


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## Darren Durann (Oct 19, 2017)

gregh said:


> I like to keep in mind that there are more assholes than there are people



This totally works for me.


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## JC_ (Oct 19, 2017)

I just reread your initial post in that thread and I think it was a perfectly reasonable response, but when you say "They got what they wanted I guess because everyone is talking about it but I am now unsubscribed from the mailing list and all the Spitfire emails now go into my spam folder. " you are pretty much starting the debate with "fuck off". Again, I think that was perfectly reasonable but if you do want to improve things IMO it's better to have a discussion first.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 19, 2017)

gregh said:


> It is not a matter of hiding from opposition, more a matter of not wasting time in fruitless conflict.


Eventually-this.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 19, 2017)

Slight OT @Mike Greene-I unsubscribed from the VI newsletter because I'm here enough to know what's going on and don't need any marketing. Doesn't mean I ain't got mad luv for ya


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## desert (Oct 19, 2017)

Trolls have overrun this forum, hoping that one day they will get a free library if they defend a sample library's product for them...no matter how personal it gets.


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## brett (Oct 19, 2017)

Basic life rule: You can't tell someone something that they don't want to hear

(...no matter how logical or well reasoned the argument)


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## NYC Composer (Oct 19, 2017)

brett said:


> Basic life rule: You can't tell someone something that they don't want to hear
> 
> (...no matter how logical or well reasoned the argument)


Doesn't stop people from trying.


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## Darren Durann (Oct 20, 2017)

douggibson said:


> It then often goes straight to hell from here. If I say " I have a PHD in music composition" ..... then "oh, well who the fuck cares..... boring elitist." It all goes to this crazy "everything is subjective". Which I can tolerate as long as that same asshole is not the one publishing comments that I don't know what I am talking about. It starts out as critical, and turns into "subjective"



I find this attitude in particular harmful toward others' education. If everything is subjective, then Beethoven's late era works (including the 9th) can be seen on a level with Kiss. Hate to break it to Kiss fans (I'm one btw) but that's complete balderdash.

Studying works like the 9th can add so much to a young composer's education, and that goes for works like the Brandenburg Concerti, Don Giovanni, and the Rite of Spring...far, far more than the score to Dark Knight (certainly both Zimmer and Newton-Howard would attest to that)...or even Close Encounters of the Third Kind for that matter.

Whenever I see that "everything is subjective" thing I know that poster has little understanding of the compositional scope and depth of the older compositions listed above. And I tune out, because it's pure ray serene horseshit of the lowest caliber. That "subjective" claptrap might be true when talking completely within the confines of the Popular music genre (Rock and all its subgenres, hip hop, country western, MTV, etc.).

Not in the far broader scheme of music. If you don't believe that, then you just don't _want_ to believe it. Just don't try comparing Jay Z to Mahler in front of someone who has any sort of formal music education...you'll be laughed out of the room. That doesn't mean the music of Jay Z is invalid...far from it, it's exemplary within its genre. But musically speaking (strictly) ha ha.* NO*.


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## Kyle Preston (Oct 20, 2017)

As someone who disagreed with you in the SF thread, it bugs me that so many in _this_ thread encourage you to avoid future debate. Transparency is so important. And frankly, our industry doesn't have enough of it.

A lot of people visit this forum without posting as well. And even though their thoughts are quieter than the trolls, there are plenty that feel the way you feel.

Anyway, I've never purchased one of your libraries but the fact that I disagreed with you won't prevent me from doing so. Because I'm a grown-ass adult. Keep debating man. Just try and avoid the name-calling.


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## kitekrazy (Oct 20, 2017)

I delete their emails because I usually can't buy their stuff. This email that I didn't see would have made me think something was hacked or something will be hacked if I did anything with it. I bet they don't try it again.


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## rrichard63 (Oct 20, 2017)

kitekrazy said:


> ... I bet they don't try it again.


I, for one, am not going to take the other side of that bet.


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## paoling (Oct 21, 2017)

I’m with Daniel this time. I’m amazed how people can say that’s unprofessional for him to express his thoughts when another developer is playing silky tricks with his customers, blatantly lying about the accidental nature of a marketing move. I’d wish more of us developers would be more talkative about these issues. 

Daniel is also a full time composer and part time developer (from what I’ve understood), so I don’t think that his primary concern is bashing other developers for his own revenue. He also made some sincere enthusiast videos on other libraries, so I really don’t see any bad in his sincerity.


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## jadedsean (Oct 21, 2017)

paoling said:


> Daniel is also a full time composer and part time developer (from what I’ve understood), so I don’t think that his primary concern is bashing other developers for his own revenue. He also made some sincere enthusiast videos on other libraries, so I really don’t see any bad in his sincerity.



This.


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## Zhao Shen (Oct 21, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> Should I just let all of this shit go and stop holding opposing opinions or should I be the bad guy



When someone wonders if he should stop offering his own opinions on a public forum... Wow. That's just stunning. Dissonant opinions should generate meaningful conversation, not personal attacks.

@Daniel James - please see past the few jealous pricks who feel the need to hear their own opinions echoed back at them. You have lots of experience in the industry and a pretty hefty knowledge of VSTs, and though there are some who are too dense to value diversity of opinion, most of us are glad to have your voice around, even when we disagree.


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## JC_ (Oct 22, 2017)

Zhao Shen said:


> ..Dissonant opinions should generate meaningful conversation, not personal attacks.



Aw man, it's a beautiful thing when people chill-out and listen to eachothers side of things. Unfortunately, from what I've seen on the interwebs, it's a rare occurrence unless both sides value the search for truth over ego. IMO everybody loses when the shit talking starts (unless it's really clever or funny).

Just to be clear, I didn't actually read past the first couple of pages of that other thread. I don't know what negative stuff was said or who said it. What I do know is there are a lot of good dudes on this forum but not everybody is perfect all of the time. @Daniel James - The way I see it, since you are also a dev, there's a chance you'll win or lose some people every time you share an opinion. It's a shitty thing but that's part of the game. A lot of people already know this about you but the fact that you started this thread shows that you care about helping to make things better which is invaluable in my opinion.


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## thereus (Oct 22, 2017)

Is this really still going on? Can somebody recommend a therapist?


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## Uncle Peter (Oct 22, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> I don't know how everyone else feels about this but I have already had people tell me they will no longer purchase my libraries. My videos suck. And that I am a hack. All of which were only said to me after one of these threads. So I guess what I am getting at here is....where should I go from here. I try to help the community here as much as I can when I am able, sometimes this manifests in being 'the bad guy' and saying the unpopular opinion so that it can be debated on its merit and the issue at hand can be addressed and maybe even improved. But on the other I am fully aware (as is my email inbox) of the ill will I am generating towards me.
> 
> I know that I could absolutely let things go, not post, and allow every thread I disagree with to become an echo chamber love in where all contributors to that thread will be happy and content then move on with their day. But there is this real deep part of who I am that craves to see betterment and improvement, not just for me but also for others even if that means saying things people don't want to hear.
> 
> ...



I agreed with all of your points. But if conveying your true feelings is going to cost you sales and damage your business – then simply put; don’t bother. Sucks eh. That’s life unfortunately. Many people cannot distinguish between subject matter and person.

I'd avoid getting into emotive arguments with those with a fraction of the IQ. It only comes off making you look bad – even if you’re totally right. If you want to let loose – do it anonymously. That might be copping out – but you have a business to think about. You can't be both a moralistic warrior and businessman..

Musicians are by their very nature 'emotionally honest.' Which means wanting to speak the truth. But if the truth hurts and hurts your customer base then funnel the angst into a quality track instead!


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## Darren Durann (Oct 22, 2017)

@Daniel James just do your thing (which is a very good thing imo). If you let yourself be swayed by others you cheat the hell out of yourself. You obviously have good instincts, go with your gut.

There's an old *Black Sabbath* lyric (big fan here): "Don't let those empty people try to interfere with your mind. Just live your life and leave them all behind".


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## Puzzlefactory (Oct 23, 2017)

Did Spitfire say it was a marketing trick? Or have people just decided it was and then got out the "torches and pitchforks"?


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Oct 23, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Did Spitfire say it was a marketing trick? Or have people just decided it was and then got out the "torches and pitchforks"?



Yes, they sent a follow-up email the next day clarifying that it was them "_having a bit of fun_".


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## Quasar (Oct 30, 2017)

Uncle Peter said:


> ... It only comes off making you look bad – even if you’re totally right. If you want to let loose – do it anonymously. That might be copping out – but you have a business to think about. *You can't be both a moralistic warrior and businessman*..
> 
> Musicians are by their very nature 'emotionally honest.' Which means wanting to speak the truth. But if the truth hurts and hurts your customer base then funnel...



Wow, I haven't heard such a succinct summary of what it means to sell one's soul in a very long time. At least you're direct & honest about believing that to be a good thing. I'll give you that.


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## Uncle Peter (Oct 31, 2017)

Quasar said:


> Wow, I haven't heard such a succinct summary of what it means to sell one's soul in a very long time. At least you're direct & honest about believing that to be a good thing. I'll give you that.



I concur - it is 'selling your soul' somewhat. But, if ranting on here reduces sales and results in bad feeling from one's customer base, then it makes sense not to bother. It's marketing 101 really - it's what people who run businesses have to think about. What's more important - paying the bills or convincing some relative strangers of your opinion? If everyone could logically separate subject from person, it wouldn't be an issue. But many can't.


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## Quasar (Oct 31, 2017)

Uncle Peter said:


> I concur - it is 'selling your soul' somewhat. But, if ranting on here reduces sales and results in bad feeling from one's customer base, then it makes sense not to bother. It's marketing 101 really - it's what people who run businesses have to think about. What's more important - paying the bills or convincing some relative strangers of your opinion? If everyone could logically separate subject from person, it wouldn't be an issue. But many can't.



At the risk of derailing the thread somewhat, to me this is a terribly interesting question. You are quite right that ad hominem arguments, attacks against the person rather than the ideas he or she espouses are standard fare on internet forums and social media, I suppose because it takes less thought, is much easier to simply say "you're an idiot" than it is to actually rationally address your POV. What the academic types call "confirmation bias" comes into play, too, where people tend to make assertions for the purpose of attracting like-minded people who will agree and confirm an opinion. Disagreements are seen as raining on the parade. So yeah, spinning one's wheels on the internet can be fool's errand whether one is right or not. So at the very least, "choose one's battles carefully" and all of that...

...But I do believe very strongly that one of the greatest sociopolitical evils of the postindustrial age world lies in the separation of the person from what one needs to do to make a living. It's become standard to expect that when you go to work you are to leave your real thoughts and feelings at the door and "play the game" of looking, acting and speaking in conformity with the ethos of whatever entity you work for. The schizoid nature of this fosters apathy, breeds alienation, and leads to a state of affairs wherein often corrupt status quos are supported and maintained even when almost no one really wants to support them. It debilitates the citizenry and obstructs social change by creating repressive cultural environments in which people are essentially lying to each other all the time, buried behind fake personas... It's why they used to say "Turn on, tune in and drop out." The love of money really is the root of all evil, and IMHO we need to liberate ourselves from participation in all of that, whenever and however we can.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 31, 2017)

There are various roots of evil-the accumulation of money far beyond your needs is one, as is the lust for power, the need for control, the desire to convert (by force if necessary) others to your ideological/religious beliefs.

Also, "love" of money is different from respect for money-the sort of money that makes life easier and more pleasant, provides security for families, supports one through old age, and generally removes the stress of constant financial insecurity. You don't have to believe in hoarding your gold or besting your neighbors with your wealth to think that accumulating ENOUGH money is a Goid Thing.

For that sort of money, people often make compromises. Some find those compromises distressing. Others shrug and see it as the way of the world. Some are more comfortable in an artistic penury than in a compromised situation. It takes all sorts-the world is rarely a "one size fits all" place.


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## Quasar (Oct 31, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> There are various roots of evil-the accumulation of money far beyond your needs is one, as is the lust for power, the need for control, the desire to convert (by force if necessary) others to your ideological/religious beliefs.
> 
> Also, "love" of money is different from respect for money-the sort of money that makes life easier and more pleasant, provides security for families, supports one through old age, and generally removes the stress of constant financial insecurity. You don't have to believe in hoarding your gold or besting your neighbors with your wealth to think that accumulating ENOUGH money is a Goid Thing.
> 
> For that sort of money, people often make compromises. Some find those compromises distressing. Others shrug and see it as the way of the world. Some are more comfortable in an artistic penury than in a compromised situation. It takes all sorts-the world is rarely a "one size fits all" place.


Everything you say is true, and literally speaking, of course there are many root causes and motivations for what people do, and not all or even most of them are about money...

...But the old biblical edict has a certain poetic truth, insofar as it's specifically _the money_ that uniquely defines and shapes the daily decision-making, the choices of action made by ordinary people. The profound and fundamental relationship between "What am I going to do today?" and "What can/must I do to acquire money?" is so ingrained that we take it for granted. They don't call it "the bottom line" for nothing. Money is the god of the developed world, and action taken in pursuit of it is the dominant religious practice of humankind today, a practice undertaken with an unquestioning fundamentalist rigor & fervor that is second to none.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 2, 2017)

I'm so sad that this thread isn't twenty pages long that I'm adding to it-just ' cause.

I generally think people's relationship with money is dysfunctional, especially the ones for whom the ultimate aim of acquiring money is some form of penile expansion and subsequent measurement against the penile length and girth of other super achievers. However, I think money is important, especially having enough to provide for children, old age, health, sustenance, that sort of thing. The monkish abnegation of such material thoughts is not possible within my bourgeois brain.

That said, I have very little interest in the acquisition of stuff, except for far too many samples and the occasional stringed instrument.


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