# 100 million $ Gig....



## Christof (Nov 13, 2013)

...if someone would hire you for a 100 million $ budget feature film, would you use tools like Action Strings, Cinematic Guitars and all those patches we all use?
I mean all those stacked multis like Morphestra, Symphobia and so on, loops from Albion and pads from Omnisphere.

Or would you avoid these and try to do your own sound design?

I am just wondering because recently I have heard some common patches in big blockbuster movies, sounds I use every day.

...not that I am in this situation of course!!! 
I am just curious.


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## Aquatone (Nov 13, 2013)

I would use whatever I and the director or producer thought worked best.


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## Astronaut FX (Nov 13, 2013)

In this business, I don't think it matters if it's a 100 million dollar gig or a 100 dollar gig, you end up giving the person paying your fee what they want. And if what they want is what they've heard elsewhere, or can be accomplished with out of the box sounds from readily available libraries, that's what you use.


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## Walid F. (Nov 13, 2013)

Action Strings? No. Layer some string library with stuff I write for live strings? Yes.

Cinematic Guitars? No way in hell. I would hire a solid guitarist, or even do the part myself. Hell, I have the money to make it really shine, why should I use some finished phrases from a package available to anyone?

It really matters what libraries we're talking about. For phrase libraries, I wouldn't use anything as I can have real musicians pitch in what they feel for the feature film and for my ideas about aesthetics.

I wouldn't mind layering some commercial libraries with real phrases that we record for the sessions though. That only fattens up the sound!


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## olajideparis (Nov 13, 2013)

Tone Deaf @ Wed Nov 13 said:


> In this business, I don't think it matters if it's a 100 million dollar gig or a 100 dollar gig, you end up giving the person paying your fee what they want. And if what they want is what they've heard elsewhere, or can be accomplished with out of the box sounds from readily available libraries, that's what you use.



100% agreed


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## Astronaut FX (Nov 13, 2013)

Walid F. @ Wed Nov 13 said:


> Action Strings? No. Layer some string library with stuff I write for live strings? Yes.
> 
> Cinematic Guitars? No way in hell. I would hire a solid guitarist, or even do the part myself. Hell, I have the money to make it really shine, why should I use some finished phrases from a package available to anyone?
> 
> ...




Your point is well taken, and overall I agree. With respect to Cinematic Guitars though, there is quite a large portion of that library that is derived from actual guitars, but can't really be recreated by a guitarist. There's a large amount of sound design in that library that is far beyond simply a virtual guitar. But again, your general point stands and makes sense.


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## Walid F. (Nov 13, 2013)

Tone Deaf @ Wed Nov 13 said:


> Your point is well taken, and overall I agree. With respect to Cinematic Guitars though, there is quite a large portion of that library that is derived from actual guitars, but can't really be recreated by a guitarist. There's a large amount of sound design in that library that is far beyond simply a virtual guitar. But again, your general point stands and makes sense.



For sure, I haven't really dived into that library in particular, but I really do know that if you are looking for a specific cool sound and you have the money for it, you will surround yourself with people of real talent and ultimately find something even more specific to the heart of the project. Something no library ever have done, something no one can get their hands on but you and your project. It's something quite romantic about that, and if you do it right, the musicians/engineers will feel it and so will the audience of the feature film.


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## Christof (Nov 13, 2013)

Actually I didn't want to name any specific library, I just meant some "out of the box sounds" in general.
I hear some very cool Omnisphere patches in Skyfall, and its almost funny to have the same sounds on my hard drive .
But anyway, I also have a Cello and a piano @ home


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## Greg (Nov 13, 2013)

Just depends how much integrity you have, and how badly you want to do something unique. For me? No, I would try to avoid those libraries and premade sounds. I feel its sort of okay to use them in library music which is USUALLY more generic by nature. But for commissioned projects where you have the time, money, and the CHANCE to make something unique, I would avoid loops and presets or at least tweak them to be unrecognizable.


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## gsilbers (Nov 13, 2013)

Christof @ Wed Nov 13 said:


> ...if someone would hire you for a 100 million $ budget feature film, would you use tools like Action Strings, Cinematic Guitars and all those patches we all use?
> I mean all those stacked multis like Morphestra, Symphobia and so on, loops from Albion and pads from Omnisphere.
> 
> Or would you avoid these and try to do your own sound design?
> ...



big name ocmposers use these libraries as traditonal composers use an orchestra: tools to do a job.


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## germancomponist (Nov 13, 2013)

Walid F. @ Wed Nov 13 said:


> For sure, I haven't really dived into that library in particular, but I really do know that if you are looking for a specific cool sound and you have the money for it, you will surround yourself with people of real talent and ultimately find something even more specific to the heart of the project. Something no library ever have done, something no one can get their hands on but you and your project. It's something quite romantic about that, and if you do it right, the musicians/engineers will feel it and so will the audience of the feature film.



+1

Another thing is: When you hire, for example, a best cello player, no matter what you wrote for notes in your score, it mostly will be played much better/nicer than you thought could be possible.


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## Mike Greene (Nov 13, 2013)

I would avoid any "Instant Composer" or "Sound Design Made EZ" libraries. Creating from scratch is a fun part of this gig and I want to do that myself, or at least be directing people in the process.

Don't get me wrong, I've used my share of Stylus RMX loops and Omnisphere "play one note" atmospheric patches. They pay the bills and help me crank out the "music by the pound" that's paid for my house and this studio.

But a hundred million dollar film not only gives me a budget to play with, but more importantly, it gives me an audience. That's the motivation for me right there: the audience that a large budget film brings.

I hate to sound cynical (and I probably shouldn't post this publicly,) but my effort level on any given gig varies considerably, depending on several factors, the largest of which is _"who's going to hear this?"_ Theme songs, for instance, get my full effort. Background music on some 3:00a.m. show that nobody but stoners will ever watch gets a more measured amount of effort. (To put it tactfully.)

Regarding giving the client what they want, I don't think any $100M director is going to say he wants sounds from another movie. He may want a similar _style,_ but directors have even bigger egos than we do, so he's not going to want anything that's a clone of some other director's work.


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## Guy Rowland (Nov 13, 2013)

How long do we have to score this $100m film?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 13, 2013)

I would share it with as many musicians as possible. No libraries (except for mockups).


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## Christof (Nov 13, 2013)

Okay, now:how much would you charge for your score?


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## germancomponist (Nov 13, 2013)

Christof @ Wed Nov 13 said:


> Okay, now:how much would you charge for your score?



What is left when all the musicians, studio time, audio engineers etc were paid. And don't forget the coffee maker!


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## Dan Mott (Nov 13, 2013)

You can create your own sounds in OMNI though. Use the sources, which are (to me), a lot more inspiring to start off with than a sine/saw/tri/square wave. You can definitely create unique sounds that way and then combine them with your own sources.


It were me. I do whatever I had to do to make the music work with the picture.


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## dgburns (Nov 13, 2013)

germancomponist @ Wed Nov 13 said:


> Christof @ Wed Nov 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Okay, now:how much would you charge for your score?
> ...



we would all be more profitable were it not for that damn coffee maker!

@Christof,why don't we go get a gig that pays like that,so we can all find out!

dream big my friend,it's the only way to fly o-[][]-o


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## Tanuj Tiku (Nov 13, 2013)

'Be less curious about people and more curious about ideas' - Marie Curie.

If an idea you have needs a certain process which costs money, then it just does and to achieve that you will need that much more. Some things cost a lot of money!

But, I will never charge a higher creative fee for a big film if it came my way. I would probably raise my rates at a later time. 

However, if I am charging $15,000 as my creative fee then even if a much bigger movie came to my door step - I would not suddenly charge more. 

Production costs are an entirely different topic. 

As Philip Newell once told me - The cost of sound proofing a room for a teenage drummer if it was to be done well would cost the same as a million dollar artist needing the same room. 

If however, the successful artist needed special things and fancy stuff - it would obviously cost more. 

But the cost cannot be less for the teenager and cannot be more for the big artist for a great sounding drum room. 

But I like what Mr. Zimmer has said on this forum that he does with some films - He negotiates a back end deal. I think that is brilliant. You invest in the film and it helps the producer of a smaller movie, spend on production costs which can make the music sound better. If the movie does really well, then you get paid your full price. Of course, this may not work in all situations. 

No back-end deals for Score composers in India at the moment. Unheard of!


Tanuj.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Nov 13, 2013)

I take this stuff very seriously. I am not here to make a ton of money - WRONG PROFESSION! :D 

We talk very little about it on the forum but music really has the power to move people. And if you can do that through your music and get paid - that is the best life, isnt it?

You get paid to do what you love and some people in the corners of the world can resonate with that process. You are talking in an entirely different language now. 

The best part is that music is so elemental sometimes, you do not even need to know the language to understand. As most people who do listen to your music or buy it - dont know the language. 

So, in the end - they will not care if you are using Omnisphere. But its YOU who cares. 

We try to make things as unique as possible. Zimmer could probably keep using the samples he has made over the years - they are that good. 

But he records new stuff always. I am guessing, this is because it is personally important to him not because the producer wants it always. Sometimes, even producers can push you to do better. 

On my first score last year, I spent all of the money and put an additional $2000 in it. The movie bombed and it did not generate any more work for me as a composer.

But months later, somebody in LA heard parts of it on soundcloud and asked me to write some music for a TV show he was putting his private music library in. I have never even been to LA or met this person. 

The same score resonated with him and he was exactly looking for those kind of tracks. 

But now did I go and try and repeat the same stuff? Nope! Its an entirely new set of music and thankfully they loved it 

I worked very hard at creating completely new sounds from synths to percussion. Very little Omnisphere etc in them. But only because I wanted to explore.

Presets are not always bad but its more fun to create your own sounds!


Tanuj.


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## Guy Rowland (Nov 13, 2013)

OK. If you're really interested in this question, start with James Horner on Aliens:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzati0Am5GE

From an era before all these incredible sample libraries. I don't mind admitting the blindingly obvious - I would not have produced anything like the score Horner did under those circumstances. I simply don't have the classical skills you'd need to write at a stave, for one thing. But that unimaginable pressure - James Cameron a force of nature on one side, and a release date 6 weeks away before a note has been written or any of the film has been dubbed, in that (relatively) primitive era.

If that film had been shot in 2013, how different the story would have been (and I'd have thought it would have been a worse result, incidentally). I'm so wary of criticising a score when we don't know any of the facts. We conjour up an image of a lazy composer with 6 months to write a score, firing up his DAW at 11am every day, playing a few Symphobia effects and multis for 20 minutes then shutting down and going to the golf course. In reality, he may have had 6 months to score it, or 6 weeks or 6 days. He may have been brought in with a fortnight to go and no picture lock after the previous composer got fired. The picture may have been recut after the film was already scored with an orchestra, and there needed to be an emergency fix done by the composer, or more likely someone else entirely. Highly probable I'd have thought - we just don't know.

That Aliens video kinda makes me sad for several reasons. Partly because the incredible skills of Horner and others who had that training and experience aren't as valuable now as they once were (and I'm guiltily on the other side of the fence there for sure). But mostly cos James Cameron didn't there and then appreciate what had been done - a classic score under incredible pressure that may not have fulfilled every single part of his vision but absolutely delivered the goods. Well hey - glad they eventually kissed and made up. And Titanic seemed to go down pretty well.

I'm so grateful for these incredible tools that we have. Yes, we can use the same tools as those at the top of their game. And - this is point often overlooked - that means the quality of what is achievable on stuff nearer the bottom of the food chain has gone up. I've said it before but hey - in kids TV 20 years ago you got a drummer, a bass player and man with a DX7. There never was an era when every show could have a 120 piece orchestra.

I'd so love to have the luxury of months on a project, where I could spend days creating new sounds and building a sonic palette from scratch (this goes for sound design / fx too). It doesn't happen in my world, but I'm aware only part of that is due to non-existent budgets. So much is logistics and time. In fact, I consider myself pretty lucky that I work to relatively few bosses. I've heard some unbelievable stories from modern blockbusters being scored on huge stages and an army of execs demanding the whole thing rewritten on the spot... I don't envy them. And I sure don't ever want to be in their shoes.

Money isn't everything...


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## Tatu (Nov 14, 2013)

I'd take the money, purchase some 1$ tracks from whatnot royalty free site and use those for it. And give half the credit to that guy who stole everyone's music and sold as his own and then blamed his kid for it (what happened to that case btw?).

8) 

/trollmode_OFF

Sorry, world. I'm about to be kicked to the street from my dayjob (because business is bad) and ultimately forced to sell my apartment and die alone in winter's veins. I need to vent, people.


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