# EIS Snake Oil?



## Melisma (Jul 22, 2015)

I only came across the V.I. Forum a few days ago. Sounded like an interesting bunch. 

Just today, though, I noticed that you have a lot of threads and space devoted to this EIS business.

Note that throughout all of it -- every or any post -- does no one give any actual definition, guidelines or any real rules to this "system". No, you pay your money (and a good lot of it, btw), then they tell you more. This, to me, is nothing short of snakeoil merchants invading the realm of music theory teaching.

I was incredibly disappointed after discovering what I thought might be a mindful and lively forum that this sort of 'business' would be entertained here. So, doubt I'll be staying long.

In the meantime, the few of you here pushing this "system" on the others need to either buck up about defining it what it is EXACTLY, and perhaps a few rules, techniques -- or find someone else or another bunch of sheep to fleece?


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## KEnK (Jul 22, 2015)

just so you know-
I'm not in the EIS cult, but being curious about it, I have asked people about it directly.
It does seem like an interesting and useful method.
I have also found it odd that you have to join to see what it is-
Facebook is like that too.

The important thing is, there isn't any pushing EIS on people here.
There are separate forums for that, and discussions about EIS pretty much always stay there.
Just don't look at those sub-forums and you'll barely hear about it.
Lotsa good stuff going on here.
Don't short change yourself because you got a bad hit off of one thing.

k


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 22, 2015)

Melisma said:


> I only came across the V.I. Forum a few days ago. Sounded like an interesting bunch.
> 
> Just today, though, I noticed that you have a lot of threads and space devoted to this EIS business.
> 
> ...



Just curious if you checked the site...btw I heard there is an update coming for it.
No snake oil here, in fact we don't even push the course on this site, you rarely if ever see anyone selling the course trying to get students. Most EIS graduates are too busy to handle more than 2-3 students, and this is not to insult the students paying their hard earned money, but the payment to teachers is far less than they earn doing their actual composing jobs. The biggest motivation, outside of helping composers get better for most teachers is to keep the course and techniques fresh in their mind as there are so many of them. You can always have a conversation with a teacher on Skype who can clarify your concerns and how it relates to traditional theory.


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## stonzthro (Jul 22, 2015)

What a terrific first post! 

So I guess you came here to say you are mad about EIS?


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## Melisma (Jul 22, 2015)

Let's get a few things straight, boys:

I did not join this site for any reason related to EIS. Truth is, I almost DIDN'T join when I saw all this nonsense and obscuration concerning EIS. First immediate thought: "anybody dumb enough to fall for this marketing tactic probably not someone I'd want to talk to?"

I am not in any way "mad" about anything to do with EIS. Keep putting words in my mouth and I'll be sure no one I knows ever checks this site out, and I'll be glad to go to.

I did check all sites linked to and by EIS, just to be fair. Nowhere, especially at EIS, do you get any kind of real explanation or anything specific about EIS. If this stuff is so great, why is99.9%+ of the pro music world totally in the dark about it, and after all the time it's been around? Why only taught at ONE community collge in the entire world? Why aren't texts/music/theory/guide books available for sale ANYWHERE in the world.

Why are you so defensive? I only asked questions basically. Did I say you were cultists? No! You brought it up. Why?

NOW ... facts, details, what is it ... or go sell to suckers somewhere else maybe?


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## Hannes_F (Jul 22, 2015)

I did never take any courses in EIS, however I managed to buy their first book used. Coming from a classical music theory background I see that EIS is an alternative method to categorize musical items and composing devices. It is a fresh approach and I think it can be very useful to think out of the box. Does it necessarily teach how to compose great music? I don't think so but so doesn't classical harmony and counterpoint. However you sharpen your mind and ears and you get tools, that is what it is about imho. Depending on the actual professional target I think it could easily be worth the asked price but certainly it depends.

That being said not every knowledge in the world must be free and public domain. Not every great insight needs to found at wikipedia. Just saying.

I am not affiliated and hope that helps.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 22, 2015)

Total scam, no question. Craig has no idea what he's doing - completely devoid of skills. It's actually amazing he's managed to get this far. Same with the other EIS people I know of, like Bennie Maupin and Lanny Hartley. Wankers.


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## stonzthro (Jul 22, 2015)

Uh - several of the founding members of VI-Control are EIS graduates and students, so demanding THEY leave is a bit presumptuous on your SECOND post, don't you think?

OK, I'm done feeding the troll - next...


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## sleepy hollow (Jul 22, 2015)

Here's an interesting post: http://vi-control.net/community/index.php?threads/interval-theory-applied-to-tv-film.46306/
It's clearly in the wrong subforum, so nobody noticed it.


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## KEnK (Jul 22, 2015)

Melisma said:


> Did I say you were cultists? No! You brought it up. Why?


ehem... I said that to inject a little humor.
and I do agree w/ you that the lack of any real info is odd.
Again my main point, is that at this forum in general there is seldom a mention of EIS.
No one's "pushing" it at all

k


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## Hannes_F (Jul 22, 2015)

KEnK said:


> No one's "pushing" it at all
> k



Actually the OP is pushing it right now


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## Melisma (Jul 22, 2015)

I don't care who anybody here is, if they're selling or pushing it, then ...

But let's get to the real point here, okay? Anything this grand would be well-known by the pro music community. EIS is not. It's also next to impossible to get anything concrete about it. Talk, talk, talk away here, but NONE of you have yet given the 25-words or less, or, hey, I'll give you 50. Say what it is, alittle about how it works or it has to be a snake oil marketing sceme. Yes, not all knowledge is out there for the pickings in this world, but the way this is intentionally kept so secret and obscure is actually insulting here and wherever else I read. This is pure marketing. Prove me wrong.

edit: Oh, forgot to say -- some of the most famous people I've ever known got all caught up in Scientology. Some are still in it. They really aren't stupid people either -- quite talented in fact. Just 'cause someone got into EIS doesn't prove anything, does it. Could still be a con.


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## Hannes_F (Jul 22, 2015)

I think you did not read my post. I said what it is.

To make it a bit more clear: You can describe geometry with distances and angles, cartesian vectors or spherical. Or you can calculate within the decimal or the dual system. The topic and the final outcome are more or less the same but the way towards the target is different according to whatever you choose as your basis vector. Everything else is possible in every other system too but you have to define what is the topmost principle and explain the world from there.

Likewise the EIS system is rooted on intervals while traditional harmony is rooted on functional chords. The material and circumstances are the same and everything is possible with every method, however the approach can be suited better to certain problems. Similar to how life is much easier with spherical geometry if you happen to live on a sphere. Things begin to fall in place.

This is a very limited explanation and coming from somebody who had only a short glimpse on EIS but perhaps it helps.


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## Studio E (Jul 22, 2015)

Melisma said:


> But let's get to the real point here, okay? Anything this grand would be well-known by the pro music community. EIS is not.


 This is a pro community. Many people here do know about it. Unless I am completely off base, you seem like you have an ax to grind. This is a very productive, positive community for the most part. Your postings are not really in sync with that sentiment, especially for a brand new member.


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## Ian Dorsch (Jul 22, 2015)

Yeah, I've ignored EIS for years, I have never had it pushed on or sold to me, and I have consistently found the VI Control forums to be a terrific resource.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 22, 2015)

Melisma said:


> I don't care who anybody here is, if they're selling or pushing it, then ...
> 
> But let's get to the real point here, okay? Anything this grand would be well-known by the pro music community. EIS is not. It's also next to impossible to get anything concrete about it. Talk, talk, talk away here, but NONE of you have yet given the 25-words or less, or, hey, I'll give you 50. Say what it is, alittle about how it works or it has to be a snake oil marketing sceme. Yes, not all knowledge is out there for the pickings in this world, but the way this is intentionally kept so secret and obscure is actually insulting here and wherever else I read. This is pure marketing. Prove me wrong.
> 
> edit: Oh, forgot to say -- some of the most famous people I've ever known got all caught up in Scientology. Some are still in it. They really aren't stupid people either -- quite talented in fact. Just 'cause someone got into EIS doesn't prove anything, does it. Could still be a con.



As Spud Murphy would say "It sorry thing to see a man argue about something he knows nothing about".
So I will not enter into a debate with you.

The following people studied EIS
Oscar Peterson
Quincy Jones
Herbie Hancock
Jimmie Haskell
David Blumberg
etc etc etc

If you don't know any of these people check them out.

Again I offer you a Skype call if you really want to know about the course.
I can also assure you that if you are convinced I won't be your teacher...time constraints.


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## KEnK (Jul 22, 2015)

Melisma said:


> Say what it is, alittle about how it works or it has to be a snake oil marketing sceme.


I'm linking you to a conversation I had just days ago w/ someone who studied EIS.
http://vi-control.net/community/ind...-chord-progressions.46651/page-2#post-3882506
He included a link from his download box to a 13 page doc called "Complete EIS Brochure"
The link is in post #25
He did say the doc used to be on the site but isn't there now

Personally I do find the "marketing tactic" to be questionable.
Because it does in fact resemble the kind of scams you refer to.
But this is not a scam, just a different way of looking at music theory.
They're just trying to protect their intellectual property.
But the method of advertising can be off putting.

Have a look at the doc, see if it answers any questions.
If not, start up a pleasant conversation about what people get out of studying this system


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## madbulk (Jul 22, 2015)

Nothing wrong with being skeptical. It will serve you well on the whole. Overblown confidence in your presumptions, before you get the facts, less so. 
Nonsense? no.
Obscuration? kinda, I guess.

As someone else conceded, the mystery surrounding it is somewhat awkward. That there's no book you can read that will enable you to teach yourself is also somewhat awkward. I'm not surprised by your assumptions, but while they're reasonable questions to pose, it happens there's nothing sinister going on, so take it down a notch.

And geeze, think you can go into any web community in the world and anyone is going to care if "you and/or everyone you know ever finds out about the forum?" or whatever you threatened? May I say, "Bite Us!" You'd be lucky to hang out here. It ain't the other way around.

They're not just hiding or protecting their IP. That's not the point. The system is dear to those who've put the time in. They like the idea of teacher and pupil. So the books aren't built to be read. They're built to provide lesson support materials and engender that dynamic.

Be as skeptical as makes you happy. Yeah, there's still just 12 notes. Go learn the chromatic scale and call it a day if you like.


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## wpc982 (Jul 22, 2015)

If you go to the demo forum (members compositions) and search for the term EIS you'll find 121 mentions, so you can listen to some of it. Personally I like the snake oil brand "Intonalism"; I've tried to be clearer what that is than the EIS folks!


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## neblix (Jul 23, 2015)

EIS is kept secret because of archaic worldview. It is a legitimate theory system, it's just carried by people who refuse to acknowledge the age of information in the 21st century.

Teacher and pupil is fine, even if your system only ever functions to be learned by teacher and pupil. But exposing the information lets people prod before deciding to take a plunge. Mysticism is boring now, and so are leap of faith investments.

MOOC have shown the current world responds far more positively to self-guided learning, but that doesn't mean EIS needs to abandon teacher-pupil, in fact it would just lead to people ending up liking EIS and wanting more (resulting in more people seeking teachers) after seeing even just the titles of the various lessons.

Your skepticism is well-founded, but don't be stubborn. There have been plenty of examples in this thread to attest to its legitimacy.


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## rJames (Jul 23, 2015)

I think you are wrong neblix. aFAIK there are many eis grads who would like it published.
It happens to be a wholly owned copyright. And copyright owners are the only people who can decide distribution methods...that is, until it is uploaded to the web once and torrented from then on!
That is a sad reality. And that is not the reason that it is disseminated from teacher to student only.
That was Spud Murphys wish...again afaik.
I'm probably more guilty than many of prosteletizing for eis.
Truth is that I took about half of the course and it has taken me from graphic artist (which I loved) to working composer (which I love) who writes whatever I want...whenever I want. I do however keep an eye on commerciality so I can continue to write whatever I want.
Undoubtedly, eis has enabled me to leverage my natural abilities.
It was perfect for me because it is virtually devoid of analyzing other people's music. No study of classical styles, no study of contemporary styles. 
You don't have to be cloistered in a monastery to study it and you are free to talk about it, share it, as you like.

Ron


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## Melisma (Jul 23, 2015)

Craig Sharmat said:


> As Spud Murphy would say "It sorry thing to see a man argue about something he knows nothing about".
> So I will not enter into a debate with you.
> 
> The following people studied EIS
> ...




That's got to be about the most arrogant response yet. More posing and obfuscation.

To those who did actually provide or attempt to provide REAL information -- the doc on that site and so on -- thanks. Now that I see what this is, I find the behaviour about EIS here and elsewhere as I've searched silly and often immature. There are clear signs of sickness in some of this.

Oh, and before I forget: Thanks for the warm welcome as a new member here on this 'forum'.
Would have been nice if some were brave and forthcoming enough to actually discuss the mechanics, theory, and so on of EIS ... instead of all the rubbish a few of us have had to put up with just to figure out all the ridiculous and unwarranted fuss.

Real wisdom and grand knowledge always finds the light of day, despite the monger idiots' attempts to keep it hidden. Unfortunately, I find EIS to possess neither of these descriptors. It's really just another way to play with intervals. I think I'm hearing Schoenberg laughing at some of you from his grave!

Cheers!


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## synergy543 (Jul 23, 2015)

Wow, what a rude response. 

Craig has got to be one of the nicest persons on this forum and he even offered to give you a Skype chat explaining about EIS.


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## mbagalacomposer (Jul 23, 2015)

Is it just me or is there some weird personal juju about melisma's position on EIS?

The level of nastiness is totally unwarranted and completely ignores the legitimate responses to his concerns. There must be some backstory to this....

I personally hadn't heard of EIS until reading through this thread...now I'm sort of interested haha.


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## bbunker (Jul 23, 2015)

It looks like the truth is outing itself here. Your first post was disingenuous, Melisma. You didn't find this forum and then "discover" that EIS was discussed here. You obviously have been doing some searching, as per this line you mention in your last post: "...I find the behaviour about EIS here and elsewhere as I've searched..." It seems far more likely that you found this forum as a result of your search for information on EIS.

So, why with the false pre-tenses? Why can't you just come here and say that you're annoyed about it, for whatever reasons you're annoyed? Did you come here just to throw stones? It doesn't seem that you're actually looking for information, since Craig has offered to talk you through things through Skype several times, and you haven't been the least bit interested.

Bizarre.


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## Frederick Russ (Jul 23, 2015)

Melisma, it seems your intention in this thread is to discredit EIS. While you're absolutely entitled to your opinion, I've listened to plenty of examples by EIS students and teachers alike that sound amazing. Rather than discredit a system that seems to be working for working composers but obviously you disagree with, let's please hear some of your own pieces and while you're at it, provide some background on who you are and the reason we should listen to you. All we have is a fake username and barely any time on the forum other than to do what you're doing. Put up your own work please, and let that do the talking, thanks.


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## Melisma (Jul 23, 2015)

All right, this nonsense has gone far enough. I really don't have time for this ongoing flap of the lips and hurt feelings and all your other grandma's p.o.ed behaviour. You people are a confused and too easily offended bunch with too much time on your hands. I simply wanted to get to the bottom of what this EIS was, a short concise explanation, and you've been posting everything but. Extreme weirdness here. No wonder no other women ever sign up and post here. Too much talk and no action 'round here!


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## Hannes_F (Jul 23, 2015)

You mean, you wanted the principles to be explained for free and did not get what you want? Well that must be a disappointment. Bye.


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## Ian Dorsch (Jul 23, 2015)

Frederick Russ said:


> Put up your own work please, and let that do the talking, thanks.





Melisma said:


> Too much talk and no action 'round here!



The irony is exquisite.


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## stonzthro (Jul 23, 2015)

Good grief!

Wait, Choco, it this really you?


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## TheUnfinished (Jul 23, 2015)

I've no idea what EIS, not particularly bothered.

But I do find it hysterical, Melisma, that you're calling other people out here, when you've been weird and aggressive from the get go.

Had you maybe chosen to ask questions in a polite and less weird manner, you might have received the response you wanted much earlier?


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## bbunker (Jul 23, 2015)

Look, guys. ALL I wanted was a BRIEF and CONCISE explanation on ALL of the subtext and meaning in Parsifal, and instead I get LECTURES about how we should Skype to discuss it. Someone DARED to suggest that Parsifal isn't all that's discussed on this forum, but isn't it OBVIOUS to you all? If you take the fourth letter of the first tab, the fourth letter of the second tab, and then re-arrange some of the letters of the last tab, you get "K U N D R Y" - your OBSESSIONS with Parsifal will NOT be hidden any longer.

Now, I'm off to go to all the other forums that discuss Parsifal. Like this 'Amazon.com'. Amazon - a clear reference to the Rhine. Or 'Google.com'. Google - it is NO coincidence that it kind of vaguely sounds like Klingsor. All of these sicknesses - why hide the truth under the flap of lips?


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 23, 2015)

I often find this dynamic weird but consistent on forums, someone comes in causing issues usually uncalled for and it brings attention to the subject under attack, almost the best advertisement for whatever is being called to task. Happens to libraries all the time, and EIS is getting more play than it has in I can't remember how long. Only thing is EIS is not a product you can download and teachers are at a minimum so the upturn will probably be minimal if at all.


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## edhamilton (Jul 23, 2015)

I once had a similar skepticism about EIS.
I've been a member here since the beginning ('04) and over time I heard compositions by EIS students and saw, in real time, the incredible growth they experienced.
Members who were decent composers became exception ones in just a few years.
Proof - Pudding.
So I'll take a crack at give the OP her short, concise explanation of EIS.

EIS is one brilliant dudes insights on how to simplify theoretical musical concepts into the smallest, actionable set of suggestions (not "rules").
My title suggestion for the course would be - "Spuds method for getting to the core of deep musical concepts, simplifying them, stripping away layers of theoretical justifications and breaking them down into easy to understand, easy to immediately apply lessons". 
(PM me if you'd like a short list of examples.)

Great teachers have a way of taking complex concepts and explaining them in understandable chunks.
That's all EIS is. One teachers very unique and effective method.

As far as the assertion of "cult like" behavior - his name was Spud for christ sake. How less pretentious could he be? To further alleviate any concerns of this being some sort of a cult designed to benefit the few available EIS teachers, just try and book lessons with one. Its hard. They are all busy pro's. None are making even a fraction of their living teaching this course. It's a passion for them. Sharing and passing on something they found great value in.
For it to be some sort of musical cult, somebody has to benefit financially from it and in EIS world, no one really does. Couple hundred bucks here and there and its probably not truly worth their time. 

FWIW - I got a year into the course and decided it wasn't for me. But I leave it with a profound appreciation for Spud's genius. To see these occasional derogatory threads is disheartening. 
The EIS community needs to agree upon a fresh way of presenting Spuds work.
While the OP seems to have some sort of previous bias behind the trolling, I can relate to the skepticism behind it. 

So I guess I'm posting this for future readers that are looking into EIS.
The few negative threads about EIS that pop up are uninformed and undeserved.
Luddites clingy to the theories and methods they have invested heavily in so much so that the suggestion that a teacher developed something more concise and effective literally causes them to blow a gasket.

Even though in the end, the course wasn't what I was looking for, there is no denying Spuds genius.

He wanted his material to be passed on teacher to student. Its that simple. Teacher - student, as music studies have been since the dawn of time. 
He passed away pre-internet. Maybe if he was still around in the new digital world he would have changed his mind and developed an online version of the course that would have benefited many more students.
That his family honors his wishes and protects his intellectual property is understandable.

Any and all impressions of EIS being shrouded in mystery is routed in those decisions.

So instead of jumping to the "cult" crap - maybe consider this -
Many found Spuds course so valuable that they continue to teach it and share it even though it doesn't benefit them financially. In doing so they have to put up with insults and ugly accusations. They can't change how the course is offered (its copyrighted), they can't update the website (owned by Spuds family), yet they care enough to keep his work alive.
It's really that simple. Amazing that generosity can disrespected so easily.


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## KEnK (Jul 23, 2015)

edhamilton said:


> To see these occasional derogatory threads is disheartening.


Ed, I wouldn't consider this a derogatory thread, quite the contrary.
everyone is rallying behind it and defending it.
Although I haven't looked into it, it's obviously a highly regarded method.
There's no way to dismiss the enthusiasm of it's practitioners.

k


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## neblix (Jul 24, 2015)

rJames said:


> I think you are wrong neblix. aFAIK there are many eis grads who would like it published.
> It happens to be a wholly owned copyright. And copyright owners are the only people who can decide distribution methods...that is, until it is uploaded to the web once and torrented from then on!
> That is a sad reality. And that is not the reason that it is disseminated from teacher to student only.
> That was Spud Murphys wish...again afaik.
> ...



That's a fair point, Ron. But even so, my reasoning still stands that the mysticism of EIS has no reason to continue in this day and age; whether students or copyright holders, eventually someone needs to make the decision to say "we need to change how we do things" in order to stay current, relevant, and continuing to survive as an educational curriculum.


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## KEnK (Jul 24, 2015)

neblix said:


> eventually someone needs to make the decision to say "we need to change how we do things" in order to stay current, relevant, and continuing to survive as an educational curriculum


This brings another question, philosophical in nature:
Do I need an internet prescience to validate my Art or my Personhood?
No I do not,
and will resist this cultural dogma.
It is a "religion" I do not accept or partake in.
Although even more ubiquitous, it is no different to me than some form of
Evangelical or other Theocratic insistence on being the One Truth.
Although it may seem absurd, I'm kinda serious here.

k


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## rJames (Jul 24, 2015)

neblix said:


> That's a fair point, Ron. But even so, my reasoning still stands that the mysticism of EIS has no reason to continue in this day and age; whether students or copyright holders, eventually someone needs to make the decision to say "we need to change how we do things" in order to stay current, relevant, and continuing to survive as an educational curriculum.


Yes. I am with you. I am an advocate for publishing. I'm honestly afraid that it will just disappear otherwise.
The copyright issue is even more complex because as spud developed the course he included student lessons or homework as examples of grasping the concept in that lesson correctly.
At the time there was no need to clear copyrights, but to publish you have to legally own all copyrights.
Like I said complex, no one is trying to hide anything.
Ron


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## neblix (Jul 24, 2015)

KEnK said:


> This brings another question, philosophical in nature:
> Do I need an internet prescience to validate my Art or my Personhood?
> No I do not,
> and will resist this cultural dogma.
> ...



It's not about dogma or religion; it's a matter of utilitarianism.

Keeping EIS unpublished has nothing to gain. Fewer students, fewer people discovering how great it is, more skepticism (and more negative threads like this) further drives it into the cracks. No one gets paid to teach EIS, so it's not even like the economy for it will be upset.


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## Hannes_F (Jul 24, 2015)

KEnK said:


> Do I need an internet prescience to validate my Art or my Personhood?



and ... do I need an internet presence at all to validate my Art or my Personhood?
Interesting question, philosophically I don't want to but professionally I do if I realistically look at it.


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## Hannes_F (Jul 24, 2015)

neblix said:


> No one gets paid to teach EIS



Not totally correct. And while I get where you are coming from I sense some "everything needs to be open source, intellectual property is moot, you must do as I say because these are the modern times" fundamentalism here too. But maybe I am mistaken.


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## neblix (Jul 24, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> Not totally correct. And while I get where you are coming from I sense some "everything needs to be open source, intellectual property is moot, you must do as I say because these are the modern times" fundamentalism here too. But maybe I am mistaken.



Sorry about the no paid comment, for some reason I thought someone in this thread said that, but then I just remembered the lessons cost money. My bad.

Anyways, there is plenty of a spectrum between the two extremes. I'm not saying EIS needs to be completely free and optimized for at-home, alone learning. I'm saying it should do a better job at communicating itself by providing people a reasonable taste of what it is.

It's just marketing logic; more people will bite if they like the taste. Instead of establishing its online presence akin to a weight loss scam (just read the website and tell me with a straight face it doesn't come off that way), the website should provide perhaps a sample lesson material (such as what Berklee does with their online degree programs) or at least a distilled overview of what EIS is actually about (other than "being different from classical theory"). Once people see how EIS operates as a system, even in small part, it's enough to build intrigue and have more people inquire/take lessons.

If EIS doesn't care about how it comes off to the grander public, it's always going to end up having threads like this, with people complaining about a supposed "cult" behavior and possibly denying its legitimacy. It's going to remain something reserved for a relatively small group of people (consisting only of people who stumbled onto it somehow and took the leap of faith into the lessons); to me, that runs counter to general advancement of the musical world. EIS should be trying to reach musicians, not the other way around.


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## KEnK (Jul 24, 2015)

neblix said:


> It's just marketing logic; more people will bite if they like the taste. Instead of establishing its online presence akin to a weight loss scam (just read the website and tell me with a straight face it doesn't come off that way), the website should provide perhaps a sample lesson material (such as what Berklee does with their online degree programs) or at least a distilled overview of what EIS is actually about (other than "being different from classical theory").


Theocratic impositions aside, I do agree w/ this point.


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## Hannes_F (Jul 24, 2015)

OK, so far I can agree. Marketing-wise there is nothing today as effective as freebies (although I wholeheartedly detest them in the whole picture - not in regards to EIS but generally - I see that they work).


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## rJames (Jul 24, 2015)

neblix said:


> If EIS doesn't care about how it comes off to the grander public,


You're not getting my point and I'm not trying to argue I'm just trying to explain it.
Think of EIS as your grandmother does she care about marketing her website?
Remember, only the copyright holder gets anything to say about how it's marketed.
You're preaching to the choir when you're talking to anyone who can respond to you here at VI control.
Ron


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 24, 2015)

I think one problem dealing with making a lesson or 2 available is from the outset EIS deals with equal intervals ...E1, E2, E3 instead of the traditional terminology of unequal intervals like the equivalent minor 2nd, major 2nd and minor 3rd. Because of this the lessons generally can not be figured out from the outset by most people w/o some help and the course gets misinterpreted, at least that was Spud's concern. I believe Blumberg saw this issue and offered a free lesson to a potential student so the veil could be somewhat lifted, not a bad idea but would have to be approved by Lilith, the current copyright owner.

I believe most of us are in agreement, the course as it stands with current marketing and availability to the general public may have a limited shelf life.


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## FriFlo (Jul 24, 2015)

Although the OP is without doubt a terrible fellow, I - like some other people in this post declared themselves - also read about this topic of EIS with interest from time to time and had a difficult time to find out what it exactly is. I also wouldn't buy into a course (even a cheap one) if I couldn't find out what it is all about. And if it is theory, then I would want to buy a book about it, before jumping into a course. By saying, a book would confuse the reader to misunderstand the whole thing, you kind of insult the readers intelligence.  I read quite a lot books on music theory and studied music in university, so I know quite well that reading a book is quite a different thing than having a charismatic teacher and can open very different doors (although I doubt this is the same via Skype). But every theory can be explained and - if the writer is skilled - even emotionally transferred to an open mind. So, this is where my interest always ended: I can't get a book on it (at least did I never find one, as Hannes suggested), so I will just leave it here. Having a book available, I would certainly buy it and see, if it was for me. I also agree with the OP, that having an impressive list of composer names, who took the course, is not telling me anything. There have been wonderful composers studying other theories ... I do not at all want to support the OP in his rude behavior, but part of what he said is identically with what I thought about it earlier. Sometimes, even a troll can have his benefits!  would be nice to see this EIS business open up at some time, so that people could get to know it without having to buy into an expensive course without any knowledge about it!


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 24, 2015)

this is a good post but the one thing not mentioned here is that a student must be interviewed by at least 2 teachers and the student gets to interview the teachers and get down to the nuts and bolts of what will be learned, something that would take too long typing. This is of course at no cost the prospective student, most if not all questions can be dealt with in the interview process including some exchange of material.


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## KEnK (Jul 24, 2015)

Craig Sharmat said:


> I think one problem dealing with making a lesson or 2 available is from the outset EIS deals with equal intervals ...E1, E2, E3 instead of the traditional terminology of unequal intervals like the equivalent minor 2nd, major 2nd and minor 3rd.


Craig- I have gleaned that much about it, and I have to point out that at least this much of the orientation
would be at least somewhat familiar to anyone who's looked into serial music, albeit w/o the requisite tone-row and inversions.

k


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 24, 2015)

One can't assume the majority of prospective students have dealt with serialism, that's what the interviews are partly for. Just to clarify while there are tone rows (tropes in this course) they do not surface till deep into the course.


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## rJames (Jul 24, 2015)

FriFlo said:


> Although the OP is without doubt a terrible fellow, I - like some other people in this post declared themselves - also read about this topic of EIS with interest from time to time and had a difficult time to find out what it exactly is. I also wouldn't buy into a course (even a cheap one) if I couldn't find out what it is all about. And if it is theory, then I would want to buy a book about it, before jumping into a course. By saying, a book would confuse the reader to misunderstand the whole thing, you kind of insult the readers intelligence.  I read quite a lot books on music theory and studied music in university, so I know quite well that reading a book is quite a different thing than having a charismatic teacher and can open very different doors (although I doubt this is the same via Skype). But every theory can be explained and - if the writer is skilled - even emotionally transferred to an open mind. So, this is where my interest always ended: I can't get a book on it (at least did I never find one, as Hannes suggested), so I will just leave it here. Having a book available, I would certainly buy it and see, if it was for me. I also agree with the OP, that having an impressive list of composer names, who took the course, is not telling me anything. There have been wonderful composers studying other theories ... I do not at all want to support the OP in his rude behavior, but part of what he said is identically with what I thought about it earlier. Sometimes, even a troll can have his benefits!  would be nice to see this EIS business open up at some time, so that people could get to know it without having to buy into an expensive course without any knowledge about it!


Here's the mistake, the bad assumption some of you make...that EIS wants you. Not! You don't have to believe me when I say this... EIS only has a limited number of slots. There are only so many teachers. No one is trying to entice people to study it.
I personally believe that it has a better chance of surviving if it is published in full.
Most accomplished composers or arrangers might very well skip much of the early course because you COULD understand some of the advanced concepts.
I say that but even now, as I read it back, I wonder how many would just be missed without the foundation that spud built in to the course.
Spud, in his wisdom, and he had lots of it, wanted the course to be studied in full and in order. 
He is the designer of what I consider to be a revolutionary way to understand deep concepts about how music works.
Personally, I believe that if the full course were published, you would have as many or more people deciding to study it deeply rather than just skimming off the cream.
BTW the course was not designed for people like me who had a minimal understanding of music theory through traditional study.
He created the course for professionals to further their understanding of music construction especially regarding arrangements.
Ron


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## neblix (Jul 24, 2015)

rJames said:


> You're not getting my point and I'm not trying to argue I'm just trying to explain it.
> Think of EIS as your grandmother does she care about marketing her website?
> Remember, only the copyright holder gets anything to say about how it's marketed.
> You're preaching to the choir when you're talking to anyone who can respond to you here at VI control.
> Ron



Hey, Ron, I'd like to clarify that my responses haven't been directed at you. I'm not arguing your points because I agree with them. My responses are directed at others who took issue with what I said, such as KEnK and Hannes_F.


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## KEnK (Jul 24, 2015)

neblix said:


> My responses are directed at others who took issue with what I said, such as KEnK and Hannes_F.


Excuse me Neblix, but I thought I agreed w/ you about a marketing strategy that can be viewed as questionable. 
My comments about not needing the internet to validate what I do or who I am,
are philosophical in nature and were directed at no one in particular-
and I do realize it is an absurd impossible perspective to have,
but this is a topic for another discussion

k


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## Hannes_F (Jul 25, 2015)

Well let me say that I bought the book (1) second hand exactly because I wanted to know more than the publicy available information as many others here and it did not put me off, on the contrary. I realized I would love to take the course one day, and I also realized why it makes sense to have lessons and 101 exchange.


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## FriFlo (Jul 25, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> Well let me say that I bought the book (1) second hand exactly because I wanted to know more than the publicy available information as many others here and it did not put me off, on the contrary. I realized I would love to take the course one day, and I also realized why it makes sense to have lessons and 101 exchange.


Well, that is exactly, what I would want to do, too, Hannes. I am sure you understand, I would not rely on your opinion alone, although you are a great guy! I would want to make my own reading experience. In case you wanna sell your book (or would borrow it to me), please PM me! 
Quotes like EIS doesn't need/want you turn me off quite a bit, I must say. That is elitist behavior and is so far from my kind soul, I wouldn't want to have anything to do with it! 
Seriously, there is no school, that does not want students! Quotes like this only make more people turn away or make them speak like the OP. In this sense, I almost get the OP: my reaction has been turning away though, as we probably are just different characters.


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## rJames (Jul 25, 2015)

neblix said:


> Hey, Ron, I'd like to clarify that my responses haven't been directed at you. I'm not arguing your points because I agree with them. My responses are directed at others who took issue with what I said, such as KEnK and Hannes_F.


I get that neblux. It was I who was addressing you. I was just trying to make the point to you, but also others, that EIS is not marketing itself. So trying to say that IT should market itself differently is moot.
To Friflo; Saying that EIS is elitist is ridiculous. Because, to a great extent, there is no entity called EIS.
Mel Bay guitar course cannot be elitist. Mel could be. But not the course.
You would be right in this sense. Just as you can interview different teachers...at the same time they are interviewing you. I assume that any teacher gets to choose their students as well. I am not a graduate and therefore am not a teacher, but if I were I would be very picky about who I took on to mentor. 
I guess you could say that Harvard law school is elitist. In fact your local community college has standards to refuse students.
EIS does not need you. Yoga does not need or recruit you. Judaism does not recruit you. I think the world is full of areas of knowledge that do not want, need or recruit you.
I don't say this in a mean way, and in no way do I speak for the mysterious cult that is EIS, but it doesn't matter in the big scheme of things that some are turned off by the lack of information available about EIS.
IMHO EIS has virtually nothing to do with serialism. There used to be a faq thread here at vi that had my 25 words or less description of what EIS consisted of. 
I think of it as a music engineering course. To a great degree, it is devoid of stylistic influence. You do not study Beethoven or Ravel or Schoenberg. The course tries to free you of that influence. You rely only on your own musical ideas. For me, it gave me the tools to get what was in my head (and very fleeting) out onto paper very quickly.
Ron


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## FriFlo (Jul 25, 2015)

rJames said:


> EIS does not need you. Yoga does not need or recruit you. Judaism does not recruit you.


Ha, ha! Bad example. Most religions are totally elitist IMO! They form a club of people and to belong to those folks, you have to be part of the club. Without any anti-semitic intention: I have to say from from the facts especially this is the case for the Judaism, as, per definition, you cannot even join the club! So, religion is almost a definition what elitist is, only by strange standards: instead of having to be extremely rich or gifted or whatever elites usually require you to be, you have to be willing to believe in some questionable book, that claims totally unprovable stuff and was written 1000 years ago or even longer ...
Yoga has dozens of different schools, most of which offer thousands of books by different gurus or practicianers. Actually, Yoga is a good example, but only to show what is strange about EIS: I think you cannot really learn Yoga properly without a teacher, but that doesn't mean, those teachers will not publish books about it!
Well, I guess you and I are to different in mind to be compatible even on a small base. That is what I meant by "people turning away". That is pretty much what you do by calling everybody an idiot who has something critical to say about this EIS business. On the other hand, there is Craig, who really makes some sense, in what the is saying. But due to your contribution, I am quite uninterested again and feel no urge to investigate this any further. May next year, when another troll will kick of a discussion like that!


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## Black Light Recordings (Jul 25, 2015)

This is why I love VI. I've been on other composer forums with nasty, dismissive, and just plane mean people like the starter here. You guys have been nothing but polite and welcoming despite the rancor. Don't know much about EIS but I do know VI and I have always found (and on the rare occasion, given) help and encouragement here. EIS or not VI really is a great community. You guys even managed to turn this into a semi-constructive discussion. Good on!


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 25, 2015)

EIS is a course and does not need anything because it is simply a course. There are a very limited amount of teachers with a limited amount of time, teaching a fairly expensive course (to most younger prospective students) and that is the main reason EIS has a small footprint. In Los Angeles in the 40's and 50's Spud had one of the few courses of private study that related to the times both in popular music and film. He was also one of the most popular arrangers in the world so the course with one man teaching it took a small foothold. As many of LA's professionals wanted to up their game they went to Spud to learn. There was nothing like it, being able to learn all styles outside of a college with one method. Many years later Spud opened up the course to allow graduates to teach it. As an organization he created a group called "Spud Corps", graduates of the course who's main purpose was to go to "Musso and Franks" discuss the future of the course, eat large quantities of food and devour as much booze as would still allow them to drive home safely. The 2nd of these, the food option was completed successfully, the 1st and 3rd not so much, though I know of no known accidents. Nothing was put legally on paper and eventually the course was handed on to Lilith, Spud's daughter who attempts to keep the course as Spud intended. EIS does look for new students, especially if there is a new graduate but that is a rare occurrence.


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## rJames (Jul 25, 2015)

FriFlo said:


> Ha, ha! Bad example. Most religions are totally elitist


Well, you caught me on that one. And you got the last laugh, so that's cool!


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## Farkle (Jul 25, 2015)

Hi, all!

I'll chime in with my experience of how I decided to learn EIS. I treated it just like if I had decided to study under a private composition teacher (like when I studied under Robert Maggio).

I saw this thing called EIS. I went to a couple of the teacher's websites (Craig Sharmat and Jim Venable). They were both composing music that I wanted to be able to compose. I liked what they wrote, I wanted to be able to write like that. I then emailed Craig, and asked if I could study with him or someone similar, for the purpose of being able to compose like that. I also asked if EIS was that vehicle to get to that composing, which he replied in the affirmative.

I then invested a couple hundred dollars to buy the first book, and do 3-4 lessons with Craig. I treated it just like studying with any of my other teachers. I invested a bit of money, and a bit of time, to see if I liked it.

I think if you view it that way, it's no different than if you hear a great composer, and decide to study with him or her. You'll be prepared to invest a couple hundred dollars, and a month of time, to decide if it's a good fit.

For me, 6 years and 9 EIS books later, I can say, it is indeed a good fit for me. 

Mike


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## FriFlo (Jul 25, 2015)

Ok, now I understand that EIS is not based on analyzing the work of other composers, but only of a set of rules (or rather suggestions) that you can work on with your own ideas. Is that about right? If so, I wonder why all famous composers from the past who taught a lot did in fact let each student go through the whole history of music before starting with modern/advanced techniques of their time. E.g. Schoenberg taught very traditional harmony lessons and counter point and a lot of Bach and post romantic, before starting with 12 tone. I totally get, that at some time you have to loose some of the weight of traditional music theory in order to come up with something original! In that sense, I think the EIS could be something useful. But on the other hand, I find it a little shallow to expect a great composer coming out of studying one theory like this without having thoroughly walked through the history of music. After all, music is like a language that is based on traditions. Don't get me wrong: IMO all theories have their week spots when not applied properly! E.g. Riemanns functional analysis is a construct, he tried to explain the music before his time with, so those composers actually didn't know or apply his theory. So, while there is some truth to it, it certainly has its dead ends. That is why in retrospect I did learn the most by analyzing music of the past. The theory helped me with that sometimes, but studying great works was the best teacher in every aspect.
In that context: does EIS somehow help you to understand, what others did. There are some works by John Williams for instance, that I like a lot, but - while getting aspects of their structure and tonal material - don't quite understand fully. On example would be the intro sequence to Tin Tin:

I would find it quite interesting, if EIS does have some ways of handling the analysis of such a complex piece. If you are puzzled, why I find that piece complicated: try to just look for what kind of scales are used here. You will have a hard time to do that ... Maybe equal intervals would indeed be a better way of understanding it ...


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## Farkle (Jul 25, 2015)

FriFlo said:


> In that context: does EIS somehow help you to understand, what others did. There are some works by John Williams for instance, that I like a lot, but - while getting aspects of their structure and tonal material - don't quite understand fully. On example would be the intro sequence to Tin Tin:
> 
> I would find it quite interesting, if EIS does have some ways of handling the analysis of such a complex piece. If you are puzzled, why I find that piece complicated: try to just look for what kind of scales are used here. You will have a hard time to do that ... Maybe equal intervals would indeed be a better way of understanding it ...




Hi, Friflo!

I will say, unequivocally, that EIS helped me to understand, and replicate, great works by masters, _especially _composers that were leaving the "classical" theory realm, and adventuring into modern harmonies. For example, after learning books 3 and 4 of EIS, I was able to understand why and how Appalachian Spring (Copland) and Daphnis and Chloe (Ravel) were composed. And, more importantly, I feel like I could compositionally reproduce that confidently. (Listen to my piece "Noble Quest" on my soundcloud for an example of me composing Americana/Sci-Fi/Copland).

Regarding this excellent cue from Tin-tin.... I'm not making any promises, but I will try to put aside some time, transcribe some of this, and talk about it a bit in EIS terms. I do need to run this by Craig and Lilith, make sure I'm doing right by this. I'm not trying to be cocky or arrogant, I'm seeing if by breaking down this piece, can shed some light onto how EIS would compose a piece like this.

Best,

Mike


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 25, 2015)

Also to be clear EIS does start with the basics and then progresses as many courses do, it just does it at an accelerated rate harmonically. I have felt also the course might be served well by analyzing some traditional music and have that as a section in the course, but I don't want to put the time in and I doubt others do too. There is still a wealth of cool material to analyze in the course but I do think you are correct there...that's my personal take, others who have taken EIS might or might not agree. One with a good EIS knowledge can certainly do score study quite well and I "HIGHLY" encourage it.

One with good EIS knowledge should be able to analyze the above cue as well people who studied other methods.


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## Farkle (Jul 25, 2015)

Friflo, check it out. One of the advanced EIS Students, Leandro Gardini, did just that. He composed a cue, in the feel/style of Tintin, using EIS as his toolkit. Here's the soundcloud link:

https://soundcloud.com/leandro-gardini/tintim-theme

Mike


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## FriFlo (Jul 25, 2015)

Thanks Mike and Craig! It would definitively be interesting to see, what a EIS analysis could come up with to explain this piece. I am also relieved to see, that understanding the master works through theory is also compatible with the EIS! THank you also for the Soundcloud-link. I must say, however, that this piece (just by listening to it) is a lot easier to understand IMO. It borrows the the ostinato structure with heavy syncopations, but is more repetitive and easily structured. As an example: this piece uses building blocks of (well known) 8 bars, Williams takes 7 bars, whithout sounding to "constructed" at all. The SC piece sounds pretty much octatonic to me. Try to find the scale, the Williams-ostinato is based on! It is very ambiguous!


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## Farkle (Jul 25, 2015)

No problem, Friflo!

Yes, I was very happy to see that, while studying EIS, I could go back and analyze/understand classical and romantic music through EIS, and have it make total sense. I used it to get a handle on how Mendelssohn did the Midsummer Night's Dream overture, can't get much more classical than that. 

Understood, Leo's piece was a bit easier to parse out and analyze, because it's structure is a more straightforward. I was linking it to show that an EIS composer can use EIS to get something "in that style" of Tin-tin. Leo's a great composer, but at that point, it's kind of like being a good boxer, but stepping into the ring with Holyfield. John Williams is just a titan, compositionally. 

I'll see if I have time to transcribe some of it. Any particular part in the Williams cue you'd like to me to take a stab at?


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## Farkle (Jul 25, 2015)

BTW, Friflo, I listened to several of your cues on Soundcloud. Just lovely composition, and very much, in that golden age/silver Age of Hollywood sound. I really enjoyed them, and, like you, I'm hoping for a return of that sound to cinema! 

Mike


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## Melisma (Jul 25, 2015)

I started this thread by questioning the validity of EIS because, despite where I searched, I found only smoke and mirrors and sometimes even blantant efforts to AVOID direct explanations and definition of what, indeed, EIS was. Along the way, I read all manner of anecdotal responses and personal testimony. There was a lot of name dropping, too. There was also a lot of defensiveness; the ones who claimed they were not selling or pushing this EIS were also the ones who claimed offense the quickest.

In other words, what we saw here was everything BUT the plain and intelligent definition and explanation which was really all I requested. I think I stated very plainly what I wanted and why I was suspect of some of the responses I was seeing instead. Also, although I wrote plainly, I was accused of various alterior motives and called various names and so on.

I meanwhile saw threads titled 'Explain EIS to Me Like I'm 5', in which the OP never did receive any real and simple explanation, another asking 'What Is EIS', wherein no educated and concise definition was actually given, and another saying 'Glad We're Having This EIS Conversation', when in fact that one only received one or two responses and there is actually NO real or in-depth conversation about the nitty gritty of EIS going on anywhere in this entire sub-forum section.

Aside from one booklet offered me here, I had to find out the basics of EIS and the backing theory behind it by going elsewhere than this forum with its many EIS threads! How ironic.

But I did gain some valuable insights while pursuing my original intent. Almost immediately after question this EIS business, several of you went directly on attack. Instead of any kind of however brief welcome to the forum, I received name-calling and accusations and odd defensiveness from people I assume to be adults. In short,some of you revealed your true personalities to me and I took the pulse of this forum.

And I have to say, I'm more than a little shocked. The look of the forum's software graphics makes this place look open, inviting, perhaps even freethinking. But what a closed and bitter bunch some of you are. Where I first simply 'smelled a rat' about this EIS business, I now understand so much more. I'll leave your little circle j now and come away mildly entertained. But be assured that I'll pass along what I've seen and learned about V.I. Good Luck, some of you -- you're going to need a boatload of it!


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## FriFlo (Jul 25, 2015)

Melisma, your self chosen name suggests, you are not more than an ornamentation to one note. And I would say, that is what you are! You come here and - within the very first thread you create - call something a fraud, tell all people how stupid they are, ... What do you expect? If you read thoroughly through only the posts in this thread, you will see, some people (including me) did share some of your sentiments! But the thing, you obviously don't get: some things in life are about style and manors! And let me tell you, when I say that, I have had my own battles here on this forum with people that were to obedient or indecisive in my opinion! I am not at all somebody who is shying away from a conflict - in real life as much as on the internet! But if somebody doesn't have any style at all, no feeling of how to address other human beings in civil manner ... I think you know what I mean, because if you act like that in real life you will not have many friends, nor will anybody respect you. I do not try to say this in a nice way, as you will probably have noticed. I usually would, but in your case I think it wouldn't come through.


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## dsmo (Jul 25, 2015)

I _still_ don't know what the heck EIS is...


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## FriFlo (Jul 25, 2015)

mdiemer said:


> I _still_ don't know what the heck EIS is...


 that's ok, I guess! Me neither, but I somehow have an idea, what it could be.


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## Farkle (Jul 25, 2015)

FriFlo said:


> that's ok, I guess! Me neither, but I somehow have an idea, what it could be.



Hi, folks!

I know, it can feel a bit frustrating, like "there's no information about it, people are hiding it." But if you check out the EIS website and FAQ, here's an important quote in it:

*Q: Is the study of this course valuable?*
One will find through proper instruction, that each lesson can be worth the equivalent of a year of study.
Spud developed this course over his entire lifetime, teaching and modifying it over 75 years. The graduate teachers preserve the integrity of that instruction and continue to provide it to students of the course. _We ask that new students honor the integrity of the course by refraining from duplication of materials and file sharing with others. Thank you for honoring the copyright and the legacy._

For me, I want to honor and respect Spud's and Lilith's wishes, and not willy-nilly share specific EIS things until I've gotten the go-ahead. It's respect to Spud's legacy, and part of the way I want to honor a person whose system has given so much to me as a composer.


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## Farkle (Jul 25, 2015)

Melisma said:


> I don't care who anybody here is, if they're selling or pushing it, then ...
> 
> But let's get to the real point here, okay? Anything this grand would be well-known by the pro music community. EIS is not. It's also next to impossible to get anything concrete about it. Talk, talk, talk away here, but NONE of you have yet given the 25-words or less, or, hey, I'll give you 50. Say what it is, alittle about how it works or it has to be a snake oil marketing sceme. Yes, not all knowledge is out there for the pickings in this world, but the way this is intentionally kept so secret and obscure is actually insulting here and wherever else I read. This is pure marketing. Prove me wrong.



I understand. Let me throw this out. I'm going to post the definition of Musical Theory (from Wikipedia) here. This is from the "Fundamentals of Music" section, and is about 50 words:

_Music is composed of __aural__ phenomena, and "music theory" considers how those phenomena apply in music. Music theory considers melody, rhythm, counterpoint, harmony, form, tonal systems, scales, tuning, intervals, consonance, dissonance, durational proportions, the acoustics of pitch systems, composition, performance, orchestration, ornamentation, improvisation, electronic sound production, etc.__[46]_

Now I'm going to post the definition of Music Composition from Wikipedia here. It's not Wikipedia's definition, but a quote from an 18th century French Composer. It's also about 50 words.:

_Composition consists in two things only. The first is the ordering and disposing of several sounds...in such a manner that their succession pleases the ear. This is what the Ancients called melody. The second is the rendering audible of two or more simultaneous sounds in such a manner that their combination is pleasant. This is what we call harmony, and it alone merits the name of composition._

Now, I'm going to post the description of EIS from EIS's website. It's a bit more than 50 words, but still in the same world:

_In other words, this system can be used to organize the sounds of any historical period of music while also providing a basis for finding new and unique sounds from the simplest to the farthest relationships possible with 12 equal intervals. All of it accomplished with only half a dozen rules.
Horizontal Composition refers to the creation of individual lines that hang together in a way that could only be seen through a vertical (harmonic) dimension previously. This allows for greater flexibility and melodic interest in each individual voice with no doubling of parts._

Personally, from each of these three 50-word descriptions, I wouldn't know how to do any of these things. Music composition, music theory, or EIS study. I would need to study with a teacher knowledgeable in these areas. So, for me, it's hard to describe _any aspect of musical composition or analysis_ in 50 words.

Again, see my post above. When I was truly interested in EIS, I decided to put aside some money, contact a teacher, and start my studies. I have been more than happy with my results.

All the best,

Mike


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## dsmo (Jul 25, 2015)

I dunno, it all smacks of the trade guilds of yore, when you practically had to sell your soul to learn the secrets of smithing or diamond-cutting. If it's so great, bring it out into the open. If this truly is a revolutionary system for learning music composition, why keep it secreted away?


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 25, 2015)

Again, if anyone wants to know more about the course I'll have a Skype conversation and clear things up, presuming I have the time. If you don't take me up on my offer I presume you really don't want to know. Also on the other side I'll figure how much you actually know or maybe more important don't now.


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## dsmo (Jul 25, 2015)

Thank You for the invitation Craig, but I'll pass. As I said earlier, I have no interest in joining a monastery. If I can't get a clear prospectus on what this is, simply by going online to research it, as I can with pretty much anything else, then you're right, I have no interest. And from reviewing other threads, I can see that by no means am I alone in this feeling. I'm happy for those who have found EIS to be helpful. Let me know if it ever goes mainstream, but until then I'm not interested. If I want to gain secret knowledge, I'll join the Rosicrucians.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 25, 2015)

Monastery?, it's an excuse, the conversation would have cost you nothing. I actually don't know if there are any teachers currently available so it all could be an exercise in futility anyway.


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## ed buller (Jul 26, 2015)

FriFlo said:


> Try to find the scale, the Williams-ostinato is based on! It is very ambiguous!



Hi

williams is one of the hardest to analyse . Especially if you are looking for a "scale" that get's used repeatedly . He almost never does this in these types of cues. More often than not he will be using a plethora of techniques with a lot of pitch sets I suspect. Look to William Walton and Hindermith ( in fact Hindermith's "the craft of musical composition " is well worth having to help with this sort of music.....also theres a lot of Jazz craft coming to the fore. JW being an awesome jazz pianist , might be a start.


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## careyford (Jul 26, 2015)

EIS is an extensive set of systematic ways of thinking about music from the perspective of composing rather than analyzing. While a certain amount of benefit comes from spending 2-5 hours per week over several years, as with any disciplined, deliberate practice, the systems for everything from voice leading to developing formal structures become second nature to a large extent. It reduces the mysticism behind composing rather than increasing it. What it isn't is a dogmatic "way to compose" or a short cut to writing great music. It is a demanding course of study that will give you the opportunity to add a lot of effective devices and techniques to your craft as a composer. One good example is that when I composed, since I don't deal much with traditional progressions, I would have dissonances that cropped up that I didn't know what to do with that never quite sounded right. In traditional terms this would be a half-step separated by an octave. Sometimes, it might take 10-15 minutes to "fix" and get the sound I wanted. Now, I have half a dozen approaches to the dissonance that are instantly available to me. What appealed to me with EIS was being able to learn in a structured way an approach to writing the music I hear in my head. I am 2/3 of the way through the course (and with my second teacher), and it is as important to me as my many years of traditional study. Hope this helps, and I recommend to anyone as serious about their composing as their posting to take Craig up on the call. EIS is hard work, not simple, but completely straightforward.


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## neblix (Jul 26, 2015)

Speaking of EIS, I might be interested in studying it soon.


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## madbulk (Jul 26, 2015)

Black Light Recordings said:


> This is why I love VI. I've been on other composer forums with nasty, dismissive, and just plane mean people like the starter here. You guys have been nothing but polite and welcoming despite the rancor. You guys even managed to turn this into a semi-constructive discussion. Good on!


Well that certainly wasn't my intent.


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## dsmo (Jul 26, 2015)

If I think I may want to study, say, Theoretical Physics from a certain perspective, I can go online and find a wealth of information, which will aid me in making my decision. I don't have to arrange a Skype session with someone. Not saying the EIS approach to gathering students should be changed, or that this forum should not offer a vehicle for it. But there is a disconnect here. This is a forum which is obviously a clearing house for ideas related to music creation, but in one particular case, it keeps a cloak of secrecy over something it considers valuable enough to devote an entire section of the forum to. It doesn't make sense to me, and this is where the frustration that many have expressed comes from. I just don't understand why it's necessary. If EIS is so demanding, requiring years of study, why then the need to protect it? It's not like people are going to be able to steal the information and master the course for free, if it's so difficult as to require intense private tutoring.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 26, 2015)

1. Hopefully if you took up "Theoretical Physics" at some point earlier you took at least one science class with a teacher.
2. If one is a great scientist and goes about learning music the same way he learned science there are no assurances he is going to write good music, quite the opposite is likely to happen. You may wish to do a little soul searching there.
3. If you have already made up your mind, why are you still here?....rhetorical question.


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## KEnK (Jul 26, 2015)

mdiemer said:


> This is a forum which is obviously a clearing house for ideas related to music creation, but in one particular case, it keeps a cloak of secrecy over something it considers valuable enough to devote an entire section of the forum to. It doesn't make sense to me, and this is where the frustration that many have expressed comes from. I just don't understand why it's necessary.


Mdiemer- 
I'm neither an EIS student nor a teacher- so I remain as "in the dark" about it as everybody else.
But what I did get out of this thread is that it's about respecting a beloved teacher's (Spud's) wishes.
The guy has garnered a great deal of respect. That's really what it's about.

k


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## Hannes_F (Jul 26, 2015)

mdiemer said:


> If I think I may want to study, say, Theoretical Physics from a certain perspective, I can go online and find a wealth of information



Apples and oranges. Bite-sized morsels about physics in the internet are usually provided by persons that are well funded for teaching in university or school as their main job. Free online information is a by-product of our education systems in that case.

But there exists no general declaration that each and any information must be made available for free. That is what some are thinking but it is not true.

I recently bought the Thinkspace course about orchestral mixing with Jake Jackson. Not cheap but highly interesting for me. I respect the know-how and effort 1. by Jake Jackson himself and 2. by the Thinkspace team and therefore paid the money. What would they say if I came along and wanted all the information and details for free?

Oh ... you say you don't want the details, just the outline. OK here is a try: All intervals are equal in their rank. Make the best of it


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 26, 2015)

Yes Hannes but the overtones are not...


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## JimVMusic (Jul 26, 2015)

Hi all:
My name is Jim Venable and I am an EIS "graduate" who took every lesson, as well as quite a few "post graduate " lessons with Spud himself. I started my "EIS journey" in May of 1988 and continue to study and teach EIS to this day. It is the basis of every piece of music that I have written. I say that because before I met Spud I had no idea of how to go about composing music.

Following are my thoughts on the Equal Interval System. Hopefully this will shed some light on the subject without repeating too much of what has been said previously. Forgive me if I am redundant, as I have not read every word of every post on this subject. 

First off, EIS is not "snake oil." I see EIS as a series of systems to aid in one's journey toward becoming a composer, arranger and orchestrator,. These techniques are divided into what Spud called , "a twelve volume encyclopedia for professional composers, arrangers, and orchestrators." The course is a practical guide and reference for working composers to generate new musical material quickly and efficiently. 

Here's a link to the subject matter of each of the 12 volumes:

http://equalinterval.com/about_EIS.htm

The EIS website is in the process of being updated so I can't guarantee how long this link will be good for but, for the time being, if you read the description of the right side under the heading "Course of Study" you can read a short overview of each of the 12 books. I think that's a clear description of the various subjects, and systems that the EIS course covers so I hope that helps.

I believe a lot of the "shroud of mystery" stems from the fact that Spud was protective of his unique sound, after all, that was what set him apart from the competition. In the beginning, he really had no interest in teaching anyone. The story that he told me was that he had turned down many requests for private lessons. In one case, he told a persistent composer, who's name I can't remember, that if he could get the government to cover the costs of his lessons, he would agree to teach him. Spud figured that this would never happen and that would be the end of it. However this gentleman, a former G.I., found a way for the government to pay for his lessons as part of a "GI bill" that allowed former military personal to get government funding to further their education. So Spud agreed to teach him and that was the beginning of the EIS course. 

It is my understanding that Spud felt that the established systems of musical study were overly complicated, had too many rules that contradicted themselves, and put too much emphasis on the vertical aka things like "keys" and "chords." He looked at music as a sum of various "horizontal lines," that when combined, would create the overall listening experience. Since we hear music in a linear fashion from the start of a piece to the end, why not approach composing it in the same way? 

Spud felt that debating the merits of one musical system over another were futile. When it came to studying music he said, "read every book you can get your hands on, worst case they'll teach you what NOT to do." I whole heartedly endorse the "Equal Interval System of twelve tonality." Here's a list of jobs that I wouldn't have been able to do if Spud hadn't taught me his Equal Interval System of music:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0892868/

Here's a couple of pieces that I composed:





Hope this helps those who are wondering what EIS is.


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## dsmo (Jul 26, 2015)

Thank You Jim, that does provide something more to go on. Your examples are good evidence of the program's efficacy. I'm curious, do most EIS graduates go on to create film music? I'm wondering if this system tends to channel people into a particular style. I guess a big part of my skepticism is that I am one of those who _do_ rely on intuition. I have always tried to avoid "devices" and systems. While these are no doubt helpful for the film composer or anyone who must produce on demand, there are those who choose to create original music purely for its own sake. Walter Piston said that "formulas and devices are the death of creative orchestration" _(Orchestration,_ Walter Piston, p.462.). But in the end, results are really all that matter. How you get them isn't that important (unless you steal them, of course). My participation in this thread was purely due to curiosity about this alternative learning system. At times in the past, I have wondered if music theory was not due for a revision. We use a rather archaic notational system, based on one instrument, the keyboard. So we have flats and sharps, because that's what the black keys are. And then we have equal temperament tuning, which distorts the intervals but allows for the free use of keys. I wondered if perhaps EIS was something along these lines. I still do not have enough info to answer this question, and it appears I would need to take the course to find out. But I'm guessing probably not. It just appears to be a kind of speed-composing program, perhaps in the tradition of speed-reading (if you're old enough to remember that fad from the seventies). But in any case, this thread has been helpful in adumbrating this mysterious subject. I'm not sure if the OP is still around, but my curiosity has been satisfied at this point, so for me it has been a worthwhile, if at times a bit testy, thread.


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## Hannes_F (Jul 27, 2015)

Craig Sharmat said:


> Yes Hannes but the overtones are not...



^^^^ Thus a different approach (and outcome) than Schönberg although the basic axiom sounds similar.

The beauty of the EIS approach imho is that under the surface it is rooted in principles, of mathematical and physical nature, and less on conventions than traditional theories. Without being cold.

In my eyes Lyle Murphy was a real genius because while it is already an achievement to break down a complete topic to principles it is still greater to radically reorder their priority list, saying bye bye to century-old conventions and rules and instead return to a natural order of these basic principles. Only very few people are or have been able to perform such a fundamental paradigm switch, and that is why I think EIS will ultimately turn out to be THE music theory of the 21. century and beyond, no joke.


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## mverta (Jul 27, 2015)

I call bullshit. Who's been recently banned? Sockpuppet troll with a personal ax to grind. Next.


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## JimVMusic (Jul 27, 2015)

_I'm curious, do most EIS graduates go on to create film music? I'm wondering if this system tends to channel people into a particular style._

Referring to the methods and techniques introduced in the course, Spud had the following to say.

"This makes it possible to write music in any accepted idiom or to deviate from it in any degree from slightly to completely. Therefore, it can be applied to any existing type of music, or it can be the basis for complete originality. It is merely a question of musical architecture. A STUDENT of this SYSTEM has a wide range for self expression, from conforming to standard practices, or unhampered by the usual restrictions, to composing in extremely free forms."

That is a direct quote from the Forward of Book 1. He created the course to work with any style.


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## careyford (Jul 27, 2015)

I use EIS to write opera, music theatre and orchestral concert music as well as film/media music.


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## JimVMusic (Jul 27, 2015)

I thought I'd upload a few more musical examples to demonstrate some stylistic variety. These were all Composed, Arranged and Orchestrated using the Equal Interval System of 12 tonality. 

Hopefully these will demonstrate that the EIS course is not about a particular style.











Have a great day!


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## ProksProks (Sep 2, 2016)

Hey there. New member, first post. Don't have formal training, all my music theory "knowledge" comes from personal struggle with orchestration books (Rimsky-Korsakov, Adler, wikis etc heh) scores and listening  I've never studied EIS ofcourse. So, I'm pretty sure you're all super interested in my uninformed opinion so here goes.

EIS certainly does not sound like snake oil to me. The method itself sounds pretty straightforward. An analysis, a view on music not based on keys, chords and scales but intervals. I bet it "feels" more like learning fugue rules than chord progressions if that makes any sense. And from what I've read on this forum and from what I've heard, it does seem interesting and useful.

But you gotta admit. It also feels weird. The awkward weird. Not cult like ofcourse but like, I dunno like a guy who signs his name under every post, even though his username is like 2 cm away... The names, (lilith, seriously? frigging LILITH?!) the strict teacher pupil relation of passing the knowledge all feels weird. In all honesty and to re-evoke an earlier example, yes you do need a teacher to study nuclear physics. But that's simply because 99,9% of the people who'll pick up the books on nuclear physics will need a teacher to make sense of them. Not because Ernest Rutherford "demanded" that knowledge should be passed from teacher to student like some sort of geeky Sith lords. The books on nuclear physics are still out there for you to read alone.

Also, all that talk about copyright. I mean really? What else musical theory is so secretive, plus copyright, I'm pretty sure, does not apply in talking about the basics of each course. It's not a patented secret, it's an approach to music. What copyright or NDA do you think forbids you from talking about it? None. Even in the examples (which were the supposed problem, "you need the musical exercises to understand EIS and they're copyright protected") No that's plain bullshit. Everyone can cite freely any example or exercise from any science textbook and he won't be infringing any copyright. Hell, you can post measures of actual John Williams scores and music for teaching purposes and you STILL wouldn't be infringing ANY copyright law. So yh there's that.

For myself, I know I won't be taking any EIS courses in the foreseeable future, because, even though the compositions I've heard that were supposedly based on EIS, DO sound interesting and different from the norm, they also sound "lost" and like floating without true purpose. That's based on around 30 or so examples I've listened so far, so I'm not holding this opinion as a gospel, it's just my first impression. Could certainly be useful for underscoring and creative weird ideas.

I'm not writing any of this to force or even suggest a different way for EIS people to do their thing. Only to inform them how I (and maybe more) see this EIS business from an outside perspective.


Cheers!


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## ModalRealist (Sep 2, 2016)

@ProksProks: while Lilith is certainly an unusual name, it's certainly not heard of, and it just so happens that it's the name of Lyle Murphy's widow. Nothing peculiar there. As for copyright, what is copyright is the books - just like any other book. As for the teacher-pupil relationship, it was Lyle Murphy's wish that the books only be taught and distributed in that context. They were never "published" in a public format, and a tutor is more or less required for actually being led through the material. In the same way that a lecturer's course handouts might only make limited sense outside the context of the lecture. Especially if it is original ideas/material being presented. To compare this to your nuclear physics example, there was plenty of time in which there was no book on nucelar physics publically available, and only researchers at universities and government laboratories shared their notes and publications amongst each other.

If you wrote down some things, enough to make a book, you wouldn't expect to be forced to make them publically available. Especially if they were never written with the idea of someone reading them for themselves, out of context, without you to explain what this or that or the other was intended to mean.

As for the compositions posted... that would seem to be like saying that, having listened to some Chopin and some Vivaldi, one has concluded that 'classical music' isn't what you want to listen to...


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## ProksProks (Sep 2, 2016)

Not really sure if you purposefully tried to ignore my points and/or twist my words. In any case

-Lilith is literally the female equivalent of Lucifer. it's not just "unusual".
-"What is copyright is the books". Yh so? No one has asked for the books. I was adressing the fact that the core principles are not mentioned anywhere. That's not "the books". Explaining relativity does not infringe on the copyright of the actual publishment. What is your point sir?

Your nuclear physics counter example is for lack of a better word, silly. The only reason there were no easy to access publications was the State. Nuclear weaponry is a tad, just a tad different than a music theory.

Lastly, which part of the "That's based on around 30 or so examples I've listened so far, so I'm not holding this opinion as a gospel, it's just my first impression" did you not get?


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## TehComposerer (Sep 3, 2016)

ProksProks said:


> -Lilith is literally the female equivalent of Lucifer. it's not just "unusual".



This is an important point. I've heard rumors that she weighs the same as a duck.



ProksProks said:


> It also feels weird. The awkward weird. Not cult like ofcourse but like, I dunno like a guy who signs his name under every post, even though his username is like 2 cm away...



...


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## Aquatone (Sep 3, 2016)

ProksProks said:


> Hey there. New member, first post. Don't have formal training, all my music theory "knowledge" comes from personal struggle with orchestration books (Rimsky-Korsakov, Adler, wikis etc heh) scores and listening  I've never studied EIS ofcourse. So, I'm pretty sure you're all super interested in my uninformed opinion so here goes.
> 
> Cheers!



I am an EIS instructor. Let me clear up a few things from the last few posts.

ProksProks, I appreciate that you find EIS based compositions and your limited knowledge of the course, interesting and useful. It is, in many peoples opinion a very useful, comprehensive, and unique approach to music composition and arranging. The developer of the course, Lyle Murphy, was given the nickname "Spud" in his youth and the nickname was adopted by his friends. Many years ago, he was approached to teach private lessons because his skill as an arranger and composer was admired for its "freshness" and speed. He had written many small books, available at the time, on subjects from exercises for clarinet to arranging to new ideas on music composition. I think there were 35 books in all.

His private lessons became the current EIS course. If you or anyone else has had private instruction with a good teacher, then, the benefits are invaluable. Because there is nothing else like EIS, he had to develop his own text that was based on a new observation of the inner workings of music, which by all definitions is a "theory" of music. The students and, more importantly, the graduates all attest that it is a solid and bountiful theory that has replaced their prior approach. To understand, requires a process of lessons. The basis requires new terminology. This basis is fully realized as he illustrates all the possibilities over 12 books. ProkProk, the simple sentence explanation, that you are desiring and are trying to elicit, will not illustrate all that is possible and will only force you (who has no interest in studying, anyway) to ask more questions. All the lessons unify which is different than most courses of study, too. Therefor, one has to take the course to understand. To clear a few more points, EIS studies all established harmony, new harmony, counterpoint, melody, composition, arranging, instrumentation, the diatonic system, and more all through the prism of his "Equal Intervals". It goes even further into very new ideas that are only possible through the understanding a student has of all those points. The examples are all from Murphy and some of his original students. Of course, one's EIS instructor has a body of work and understanding that only ads to the EIS material. Very important to remember that.

You probably understand that there are many "theories" of music. Pythagoras had one that we still incorporate into "todays" theories. Helmholtz's ideas shaped principals of arranging. Hindemith's "The Craft of Musical Composition", Schillinger's "System of Musical Composition" are "theories" or systems. Lyle Murphy's text or "omni" book is called The Equal Interval System. Rimsky-Korsakov's "Principles of Orchestration" are the author's principles or ideas or system or theoretical basis for what he did. At one point, almost all these systems were intellectually protected or were published for the monetary gain of the content's creator. Some have been adopted as group study text in organizations such as a college. Of all mentioned, EIS is the newest. It has a copyright and a trademark like any current publication and intellectual property. Students and teachers respect the legal and moral aspect of this. As Lyle Murphy envisioned, practiced, and requested, the course is taught in a private, teacher to student manner. As a teacher, I agree with this. ProkProk, consider how things would be if a great teacher or friend could help you have a deeper understanding of R-K's Principles of Orchestration and could know when you understood it.

For many years, I have read posts that accuse EIS of being a closed, voodoo-esque organization...even a cult. This is incorrect. As arguments evolved on this forum, I've noticed that the attacks are more related to ignorance with a veiled attempt to understand more. Why else would someone take the time to even attack something that they state has no benefit for them. But the internet does allow for bazaar behavior if anonymity is desired. To provide reality, no one is attacking Berklee for teaching Schillinger's system (and it's evolution) and charging lots of money to do so.

Now, to the utterly ridiculous and rudeness of your writings about Lilith's name. Lilith Murphy is Lyle Murphy's daughter and was tasked with continuing and curating the course, as her father had wished, upon death. Prok, consider what you say before you say something ignorant and sideways insulting by defaming someone for their given name. Your only motivation is to have a chuckle but it was at a family's expense. That agenda laden line of thought negate all the positive things you said about her father's work and life that she was tasked with preserving. Last but not least, she is a friend of mine.

Prok, to add to what has been stated about "copyright". Many of the older books and system's have expired copyright or have been assimilated into other publications and courses. My copy of R-K's book was $20USD, which I have enjoyed and learned from his work. Even though it is "free" on Northern Sounds, in reality, it was advertising for GSO. Nothing wrong with that. It was useful for many but not "free" in a true sense. In case you are not aware, John Williams study scores have a copyright. The full scores are available for purchase on his site and others. There are other courses available and they all have some form of copyright and ask that the information be respected. EIS is no different.

Prok- As a beginning composer, you should understand copyright and publishing because this is how a content creator earns their living. If you decide to be a hobbyist, then it is obvious to respect the rights of those who create devices and material that aid you in your pursuit. If we aren't paid for our work, there is no other reason to continue beyond altruism and ego. Noble as that is, it doesn't put food on the table.

Folks, at the end of the day, EIS is just a method and course of music study. It is designed to be taught one on one. This is just how we do it and have found most successful. I teach it because I love it and because it makes so much sense. Others feel the same. The teachers have an understanding of the material and how to best teach it. The text is conversational. There are witty moments. It is not a thick book getting dusty on bookstore shelves. I find new ideas in the text all the time and many lessons can be explored infinitely. I've made insane deadlines on projects due directly to the course. There is really no advertising yet we get new students on a regular basis. Some students have impressive credentials and are still mind blown by the material they pay for. It is exciting to teach and watch students of all backgrounds improve and do amazing work. 

Remember, people have benefitted from the course and they paid. Respect, the work and sacrifice they made and don't assume that one deserves it for free just because it exists. I can only apologize and disagree if this offends any sensibilities. If one sees no value in what we offer, no problem. We wish you luck in your musical development.

I hope this clears a few things up.

Matt


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## neblix (Sep 3, 2016)

Isn't about time this thread gets locked? The discussion has gone in circles several times over now, from people accusing illegitimacy and then it being defended by people citing names who have studied it and provided credible explanations.


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## ModalRealist (Sep 3, 2016)

Neblix is right.

What gets me is the entitlement of so many people. As if anyone involved with EIS has some kind of public responsibility to share anything with anybody. If I had talent at writing music, and mentioned to people that I think about music using a different set of concepts from them, why the heck should I be under any demand to provide an understandable, accessible text to convey my private understanding to them? I'd be quite within my rights to distribute those ideas, if at all, in the way I wish.

And to be 100% clear, Lilith is *not *the female form of the name Lucifer, nor does the Lilith (or _lilitu_) of Jewish and Assyrian myth have anything to do with the Lucifer, or cast-down morning-star. Maybe nu-Christianity thinks it is, who knows. Absolute codswallop. And, how incredibly offensive to _anyone _with an unusual name, that idiots on the internet will happily doubt your good character just on account of it. Miserable.


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## careyford (Sep 8, 2016)

It's been very useful for me. If someone's not interested or doesn't see value, don't study it.


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 8, 2016)

neblix said:


> Isn't about time this thread gets locked? The discussion has gone in circles several times over now, from people accusing illegitimacy and then it being defended by people citing names who have studied it and provided credible explanations.



On VI we rarely lock things and this forum is part of VI. I actually learned a few things from Matt i didn't know...35 books etc. I often find when someone attacks a given subject I often learn from the responses. I'm probably not the only one.


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## Zookes (Sep 12, 2016)

Would enjoy trying this EIS at least once.

EIS site gives email for interview contact, but bears personal name instead of administrative function description??
This is very strange to me. I do not wish to send unsolicited messages to personal addresses.


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## ModalRealist (Sep 12, 2016)

Zookes said:


> EIS site gives email for interview contact, but bears personal name instead of administrative function description??
> This is very strange to me. I do not wish to send unsolicited messages to personal addresses.



Lilith is the course organiser, so it's her email address? There's no 'institution' with EIS. I mean, if you were contacting me (an academic) about something you'd get _my _personal email address...


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## Farkle (Sep 12, 2016)

Zookes said:


> Would enjoy trying this EIS at least once.
> 
> EIS site gives email for interview contact, but bears personal name instead of administrative function description??
> This is very strange to me. I do not wish to send unsolicited messages to personal addresses.



EIS is owned and run by Lilith Murphy, Spud's daughter. As such, she's the first point of contact. She's not at all bothered by emails sent to her regarding EIS; if you're interested, email her, and she'll get the ball rolling! 

Mike


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## Aquatone (Sep 12, 2016)

Craig Sharmat said:


> On VI we rarely lock things and this forum is part of VI. I actually learned a few things from Matt i didn't know...35 books etc. I often find when someone attacks a given subject I often learn from the responses. I'm probably not the only one.



I agree. The threads are illuminating. I knew there were, at least, 26 books. When I was studying with David, he mentioned there were more...closer to 35. Although, he wasn't sure. At the time, I was trying to collect them and track down some of Spud's stock arrangements. But that number has yet to be confirmed. Lilith is still finding stuff in Spud's archives. On top of the early books, EIS is another 12 volumes and volume/Book 11 is divided into 3 epic books. Honestly, I don't see how he wrote so much music and still had time to write so many books. Humbling.

But to those curious about the EIS, the thing to understand is that Lyle Murphy had a tremendous body of work and was the real deal. Anyone who takes the course seriously should benefit.

Matt


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## Mike Fox (Sep 21, 2016)

What is EIS? What was the OP so pissed about? Who is Spud? And why do I feel like Smalls from the Sandlot right now?


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## Mike Fox (Sep 21, 2016)

Nevermind, I'm all caught up now.


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## Ashley Kampta (Sep 22, 2016)

Mike, it only took you four minutes to catch up? That's some serious talent and reading speed, right there!


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