# Nylon string guitar for classical?



## Virtual Virgin (Jul 22, 2019)

I was about to work on a classical guitar quartet mock up when I realized the Orange Tree nylon I bought is only 
done with picking samples (!!). Any nylon libraries out there with attention to classical technique?


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## dsblais (Jul 22, 2019)

I have the OT Nylon but it very unrealistic for traditional classical guitar, in my opinion. The VSL concert guitar library is old, but the best out there. It was a graduate student project of one of their employees if I recall correctly, and the detail that went into it is very impressive.


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## AllanH (Jul 22, 2019)

Of the instruments I have, I highly recommend new Classical Guitar 2.0 from PettinHouse.









ACOUSTIC NYLON GUITAR SAMPLE LIBRARY FOR KONTAKT


2GB, 24/96, 4 Dynamic Layers,True Legato & More



www.pettinhouse.com


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## Virtual Virgin (Jul 22, 2019)

AllanH said:


> Of the instruments I have, I highly recommend new Classical Guitar 2.0 from PettinHouse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Seems decent but there are no demos on the page. The video mostly highlights the strumming, which I would only be using occasionally.


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## Phillip Dixon (Jul 22, 2019)

vsl classical guitar is very good


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## micrologus (Jul 22, 2019)

Amplesound Guitar L is the best classic guitar I own.
http://www.amplesound.net/en/pro-pd.asp?id=8


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## VgsA (Jul 22, 2019)

Virtual Virgin said:


> picking samples (!!)



I guess it depends on the kind of sound you're after, I usually use my fingers for classical, but for example for this one I used a pick for the melody:


(Although I did use my fingers for pretty much everything else)


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## stan-k (Jul 22, 2019)

micrologus said:


> Amplesound Guitar L is the best classic guitar I own.
> http://www.amplesound.net/en/pro-pd.asp?id=8


Agree with this. I also have it and have to say it's very playable.


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## David Cuny (Jul 22, 2019)

Are there specific techniques you're looking for? The Indiginus Renaxxance Nylon has key switches for:

Sustain
Mute
Hammer-on
Mordent (up and down)
Slide (up and down)
Legato
The hammer-ons and mordents are tempo-synced, and can be assigned to a key signature, or just move in half-steps.

It probably doesn't need to be said, but it sounds (and plays) exactly like the demos. So what you hear _is _what you get.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 22, 2019)

I can't comment on the Indiginus product and still own nothing from that developer so also cannot extrapolate from other libraries, but from David Cuny's post above, it looks to be worth looking into.

Although I own the one from Pettinhouse, and it's pretty well recorded as well as being affordable, I haven't yet used it on a project as VSL's Concert Guitar has yet to stump me as it covers almost every imaginable style of playing (some of which I didn't know about, even though I studied the instrument for a few years).

Another option is to go for an older instrument in the classical guitar family and/or augment with that, but in my experience the predecessors to the Romantic Guitar (which somehow got labeled Classical Guitar but often is referred to as Concert Guitar in order to reduce confusion), have a much more muted attack, and thus may not cut through the mix in as many contexts. They have a sweet sound of their own though.

Some examples are the ones included in Soniccouture's Conservatoire Collection, and Rinascimento from Fluffy Audio -- both are excellent libraries that are must-haves and complementary of each other as they don't cover quite the same Renaissance and Baroque (even up to Classical period) instruments.

Once home I can check my overall list, but VSL's Concert Guitar is cheap as I recall, so I'm not sure that finding cheaper solutions is worth bothering with. The caveat is that I have the full edition and that might have been considerably more money as well as being essential. I'd have to check the markings on the articulations (or their product web page) to verify whether the basic standard edition is competitive at its price point. Also, not sure if it's part of any current sales.


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## Joe_D (Jul 22, 2019)

The Ilya Efimov Nylon Guitar is very nice.


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## CGR (Jul 22, 2019)

I love listening to acoustic nylon string guitar. Wish I took the time to learn it - the ability to take it with you to a gig or just to play on holidays really appeals, as opposed to lugging around a heavy weighted keyboard, or turning up at a venue and having to put up with a crappy piano.

Anyway, I have owned and used the Kontakt instrument called Jack's Concert Guitar for a few years. A really flexible sampled guitar and to my ears a lovely natural tone:

https://www.kontakthub.com/product/Jacks-Guitar/
Watch the first video further down the page. It demos picking & strumming.

The GUI is a bit of a mess (took me a while to realise the tuning pegs are not just part of the graphics, but are controllers for the settings!)


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## CGR (Jul 22, 2019)

I've also used this on a few tracks. Not as in your face or comprehensive as Jack's Concert Guitar, and the Kontakt interface is pretty basic, but a nice alternative and sits really well in mixes (it's actually a Lute):









Precisionsound | Folk Lute Guitar


The Folk Lute Guitar has a round resonant body and nylon strings on a short neck. It has both bite and weight, making it ideal for ballads, folk songs and classical guitar pieces. The Folk Lute Guitar…




store.precisionsound.net


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 22, 2019)

Here's my rankings, in terms of sound quality, playability, and coverage of styles and articulations, of what I own. VSL, OTS, and Ilya Efinov, cream them all by several factors, in my view:

VSL Plucked Instruments: Concert Guitar (Vienna Instruments) — arched back, unique model
OTS Evolution: Modern Nylon (Kontakt) — plectrum-only, strong on Bossa Nova
Ilya Efimov Nylon Guitar (Kontakt) — most traditional classical guitar, quirky for lead + chords
Chris Hein Guitars: Nylon Guitar (Kontakt) — quirky articulation and dynamics control
Pettinhouse ClassicGuitar (Kontakt) — emphasis on strumming, strong on Bossa Nova
EW Gypsy: Classical Guitar (Play) — nice timbre, good legato, but few articulations
SampleTank Factory Library: Guitar: Nylon G (SampleTank) — Brasilian style
Adamastor Alfama Fado Virtual Instrument: Nylon Guitar (Kontakt) — Fado, few articulations
Lyrical Distortion Nylon - Classical Cedar (Kontakt) — few articulations
Lyrical Distortion Nylon - Classical Spruce (Kontakt) — bright, aggressive, few articulations
Vir2 Acoustic Legends: Nylon String: Hofner Nylon (Kontakt) — dull, few articulations
Vir2 Acoustic Legends: Nylon String: Langejan Nylon (Kontakt) — bright, few articulations
UVI IRCAM Solo Instruments: Guitar: Classical (Falcon) — unusual, specialized articulations
AAS Strum Acoustic GS-1: Acoustic: Nylon Soloist **PM** — no natural articulations
Kontakt Factory Library: Band: Guitar: Nylon Guitar (Kontakt) — aggressive, no articulations
EW Goliath: Acoustic Guitar Family: Concert Guitar (Play) — not very expressive
EW Goliath: Acoustic Guitar Family: Classical Guitar (Play) — overly aggressive
MusicLab RealGuitar: Classic — overly-aggressive sound, strum-oriented
Below the first seven choices, differences in quality are minimal. Everything is contextual too, of course, as some genres and projects may need something OTHER than an authentic classical guitar.

Xsample's orchestral library includes an 8-string nylon guitar, which I didn't rank above as that's a different sort of instrument, even though it was the most prevalent configuration in certain regions for a good long time, and one occasionally comes across some 8-string guitar sheet music that isn't trivial to adapt to 6-string.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 22, 2019)

I also own the Precisionsound Folk Lute Guitar mentioned above, which is sampled from a 
Levin 6-string Swedish Nylon String Lute Guitar. An interesting instrument, but I wouldn't substitute it for a standard Concert Guitar per se. As I said above though, context is everything, and sometimes you need a different yet related sound.


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## YaniDee (Jul 23, 2019)

Mark Schmieder said:


> Here's my rankings, in terms of sound quality, playability, and coverage of styles and articulations, bearing in mind that VSL creams them all by several factors, in my view:
> 
> VSL Plucked Instruments: Concert Guitar (Vienna Instruments)
> OTS Evolution: Modern Nylon (Kontakt)
> ...


There was a thread regarding the Adamastor Fado Vi..everyone was looking for it..is it available anywhere?

Here is an option..does not have many articulations, but includes some interesting instruments, including Baroque and Renaissance Lutes and Guitar, Theorbo..they sound quite good and it's super cheap!





BOB Early Music [Kontakt 2 / EXS24 / Giga] - $17.97 : Bolder Sounds, Creative Sampler Libraries Since 1990


Bolder Sounds BOB Early Music [Kontakt 2 / EXS24 / Giga] - Kontakt 2 / EXS24 / Giga 2 A collection of instruments spanning from the hurdy gurdy of the medieval period to fortepiano of the early classical period. See the below specifications for the full list. For a more detailed version of the...



www.boldersounds.com


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 23, 2019)

Ah yes, I did not include pre-Romantic era guitars on that list, as I consider them different instruments. I have the BOB collection, and as with other stuff from Bolder, the sampling quality and programming are excellent, but this being an earlier collection, it was of course done low-res due to disc space being very expensive at the time, just like a lot of otherwise-excellent Akai-based libraries of yore. I still reach for it now and then for certain stuff though. There's even a Fretless Banjo in one of those Bolder collections!


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## keepitsimple (Jul 23, 2019)

Lots of good ones. Gypsy for me though.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 23, 2019)

I might have bought Adamastor Alfama Fado Virtual Instrument from Kontakt Hub, or perhaps direct from the developer. It was a few years back and I might have even learned of it from this forum. It's an excellent library that includes some rare stuff. But small developers are often doing this on the side, and can't always keep up if something breaks their store or hosting site. Hopefully not the case though. I may be able to find a receipt once home, to see the original source.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 23, 2019)

I'm not sure you're correct when it comes to the performance samples, which are multiple notes.

As to whether Vienna Instruments does look-ahead for string choice context on single notes (vs. performance repetitions or intervals), vs. standard round robin that might include samples from different strings, that is probably unlikely, but I'm not an expert on the under-the-covers aspect of that plug-in.

I don't personally think it's as noticeable on a nylon stringed instrument, as the string harmonics, and the differences between strings, don't seem quite as extreme as on a steel-strung flat-top folk guitar. When I studied classical guitar, it seemed the fingerings mattered more overall, and as all fingers are doing independent stuff much of the time, my recollection is that practicality was the main consideration vs. the specifics of timbre in each position, such as becomes a major consideration in my bass playing and folk instruments that aren't nylon-strung.

Someone else is probably more expert on this topic, regarding the importance of string choice within the phrase context on nylon vs. metal strings.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 23, 2019)

I really like the tone, playability and value of the Indiginus Renaixxance, but I don’t know enough about classical tone to say if it would be suitable.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 23, 2019)

The Bolder Sounds BOB Early Music library doesn't have a Classical Guitar; it has a Renaissance Guitar (and a Renaissance Lute, Theorbo, Harpsichord, Hurdy Gurdy, Baroque Lute, and Fortepiano). Still a pretty good library to have at hand, even with other options available.

The Baroque Lute was even pulled into Alchemy at one point, and I think it's still part of it since Apple took over that VI. The Renaissance Guitar is still my only sound source for that specific variant.


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## Fleer (Jul 24, 2019)

As a classical guitar player myself I do prefer the OrangeTreeSamples one.


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## David Cuny (Jul 24, 2019)

People keep recommending OTS, which the OP said they've already got. 

Specifics on what's _lacking _in OTS would be helpful in making recommendations.


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## sostenuto (Jul 24, 2019)

Fleer said:


> As a classical guitar player myself I do prefer the OrangeTreeSamples one.



Applause !!  
Keyboardist here and have OTS Modern Nylon ( actually _all_ OTS libs ).
Messaged Greg yesterday about EV Modern Nylon 'Snapshots' which might get as close as possible for Classical guitar. Is this unrealistic ?? I asked based on the Audio Demo 'Classically Trained' …. as well as 'Classical Concert' Snapshot. Perhaps there are others _ classical ?


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 24, 2019)

I'm afraid I am having a cognitive disconnect regarding OTS Modern Nylon as a classical guitar source. The player is a pop session musician, and the user manual, GUI, and my ears seem to tell me that this library is strictly recorded using a plectrum, which I almost never see done on a nylon guitar in either Classical or Brasilian genres.

It is well recorded and has a nice timbre, which is why I rated it highly, but I would use it more as a pop/rock guitar, maybe jazz as well, where I just want a somewhat different timbre from a standard folk guitar. Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't see this library as being suited for Classical or Bossa Nova etc.


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## constaneum (Jul 24, 2019)

Mark Schmieder said:


> I'm afraid I am having a cognitive disconnect regarding OTS Modern Nylon as a classical guitar source. The player is a pop session musician, and the user manual, GUI, and my ears seem to tell me that this library is strictly recorded using a plectrum, which I almost never seen done on a nylon guitar in either Classical or Brasilian genres.
> 
> It is well recorded and has a nice timbre, which is why I rated it highly, but I would use it more as a pop/rock guitar, maybe jazz as well, where I just want a somewhat different timbre from a standard folk guitar. Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't see this library as being suited for Classical or Bossa Nova etc.



I have to agree. Whenever i need a more Classical sounding Nylon Guitar or even for Bossa Nova, i think AmpleSound or Ilya Effimov. I'm curious on Pettinhouse for Bossa Nova strumming. hmm....any luck with strumming?


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 24, 2019)

I must apologize; I thought my list was up-to-date, but it was full of mistakes, so I am correcting it now.

I never got around to buying the Ilya Efimov stuff. After THOROUGHLY reviewing EVERYTHING that I have tonight, I am convinced it is the most likely alternate contender for classical playing, and is on sale for $77 currently, so might be worth a try. You don't have to buy the strum version or the package; just the normal playing style edition, which includes a lot of articulations.









Nylon Guitar







www.ilyaefimov.com





I might give it a try, as it was the only one in their guitar suite that ever tempted me (I only use guitar libraries as placeholders vs. for final production).

I am giving Chris Hein Guitars the benefit of the doubt, as it is deep and well recorded. I just can't for the life of me get it to work properly, but I also haven't taken the time for a deep study of the manual, so I may be misinterpreting what I think the GUI is telling me. It's a very old library though, and pre-dates the excellent scripting work that is in most of Chris's other products.

The SampleTank one is Brasilian, more for Bossa Nova than Classical, but is well-recorded. I simply have yet to figure out how to do articulation-switching in SampleTank, and don't want to have to resort to Multis if that's the only way to accomplish it.

Gypsy does have a true Classical Guitar after all; I was wrong. Nice timbre, not many articulations, but maybe enough for basic work, as the legato is well-done.

I hadn't worked with my recently-bought Pettinhouse ClassicGuitar v2 yet, until tonight, and am impressed by the recording quality, but it seems to be mostly strumming-oriented. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The Adamstor Alfama Fado Nylon Guitar is dull-sounding like a pre-Romantic model, but sounds nice, just without many articulations. Probably not a good pick for classical work, but maybe for genre stuff.

Lyrical Distortion's ancient libraries are well-recorded but only have a few articulations. Somewhat better than Vir2 Acoustic Legends, which picks Hofner and Langejan models of all things.

UVI IRCAM Solo Instruments is all about weird and unusual articulations, but the ones for Classical Guitar are somewhat more conventional, yet not very varied, so it's not all that useful overall for Nylon Guitar at least.

AAS Strum Acoustic is fully modeled as I recall, but has a nice timbre for its Nylon Soloist; just nothing much in the way of articulations as it's more about the strum engine. Similarly with MusicLab RealGuitar's Classic model, which I think may be hybrid sampling/modeling but sounds overly-aggressive and is strum-oriented.

The Indiginus one might be worth looking into; I haven't given it a listen yet, or looked at its manual or specs in detail.

Oh, I forgot that AmpleSound has a Classical Guitar. Might be worth checking out as well.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 25, 2019)

"The Vienna Concert Guitar is the only one of its kind. This hand-made instrument was specially constructed with an arched back put together from several pieces of wood. Its balanced, homogeneous sound allows it to stand its ground as a solo instrument as well as in accompaniment."

In comparing the renditions of "Asturias (Leyenda)", I think I prefer Ilya Efimov to VSL Concert Guitar for that sort of work, due to a warmer and more articulate timbre, but it also sounds to me a bit less organic in terms of dynamic layers and machine-gun repetitions. I might find it worth the chance though, at the discount price, as I really don't find ANY of my other classical guitar libraries truly usable due to all the caveats that I listed. It would be nice to have a timbral alternative to VSL Concert Guitar.

The note attacks don't seem quite right to me on the AmpleSound product, but it's a nice enough sound overall, and might be good for bossa, pop, etc. I don't think I'd care for that one on classical though. Similarly with Indiginus Renaxxance.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 25, 2019)

From the Ilya Efimov user manual:

3500 samples
44,1 Hz
24 bit, stereo
14 velocity layers for each note
17 frets on each string with a round-robin algorithm
Automatic and Manual String Selection Automatic and manual Left Hand Playing Position Selection
3 modes for automatic search of chord position
12 different articulation
Realistic legato
Realistic glissando
Repetition keys
Different FX and Noises
MIDI Guitar Mode

It's a little over half the size of VSL Concert Guitar Standard Library, and a bit over a third the size of VSL Concert Guitar Full Library, but it may have additional features as it does focus on string selection and other real-world realism. VSL also sampled chords; not sure if Ilya Efimov did that.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 25, 2019)

I think Ilya Efimov has the advantage for chord mode, as it detects what you play and uses it to select the strings (this is the short version; it's very sophisticated and can be parameterized); whereas VSL's chord mode is simply single note triggers of pre-recorded chords, also without control over note order.

It's mostly in bossa nova playing where I might mix chord strumming with melodic lead on top (all at the same time; not two separate tracks). It can come up in classical playing as well.

Surprisingly, I don't hear note choking or muting in VSL using single-note articulations, but they don't often define their terminology and I think this just means that each note is treated separately. Or maybe the gaps between notes are enough to avoid notes being dropped, if it is designed to be mono vs. poly.

Anyway, my decision is made to buy the Efimov bundle on sale (it's not much more to add the strum library). But I have to wait for him to straighten out my account first, as it is not up to date and has no way of being edited for new contact information. I'll probably buy this tomorrow and try it out on a bossa tune or two; maybe one classical piece as well.



https://www.ilyaefimov.com/file/manuals/ilya-efimov-nylon-guitar-manual-1-1.pdf



I recommend that others study the user manual linked above; it is very thorough.


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## Fleer (Jul 25, 2019)

Good points indeed. I love playing classical guitar, but not as much for (old) classical music. If I would, I think I’d prefer the Pettinhouse sound. For more modern music (with a classical guitar) such as Ennio Morricone movie scores, I just love the OTS one.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 25, 2019)

Both of my emails to Ilya Efimov have bounced ([email protected], and [email protected] -- the latter is from a quite recent transaction in late 2018). Their website does not list any contact info. Does anyone know a valid email address to use for direct contact?

Update: I just found this one from when I first registered in 2012, so used it for a third re-send:

[email protected]


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 25, 2019)

I heard back and my account has been updated, so I will be buying the nylon package from Ilya Efimov now, as an alternate for classical work, maybe bossa too, but probably I'll try OTS and Pettinhouse on bossa to see if they handle multi-note semi-strum playing (with constantly shifting voicings vs. static predetermined note-triggered chord patches), better than VSL Concert Guitar.


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## constaneum (Jul 25, 2019)

Mark Schmieder said:


> I heard back and my account has been updated, so I will be buying the nylon package from Ilya Efimov now, as an alternate for classical work, maybe bossa too, but probably I'll try OTS and Pettinhouse on bossa to see if they handle multi-note semi-strum playing (with constantly shifting voicings vs. static predetermined note-triggered chord patches), better than VSL Concert Guitar.



I think VSL Concert Guitar is great for melody line playing, not chord?


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 25, 2019)

Wow, this sure is a problematic download and install! The Downloader says "File Not Found" after unzipping and installing it, if I try to use it vs. the download links. The download links themselves provide no status in any browser (weird, but this is a recent trend with several other vendors too), but sometimes "finish" and show up on disc after some other link is clicked at their site and fails.

It seems that a lot of vendors are behind the times and not up to compatibility with all the recent security based stuff going on with installers, the internet, etc. The world is changing quite rapidly, of course, and certain countries seem to be getting blocked (such as Ilya Efimov's home).

Edit: the downloads finished, after I tried again to do something at their website that was rejected. UnRarX didn't work well; using the first part RAR file wasn't enough, and then running it on the second RAR file went through the third and fourth but erased the first. Starting again with Keka did the trick.

I probably won't have time until the weekend to really give it a good trial run though -- this has been a hard-packed week, on top of losing yet another musical collaborator (who I was to gig with in just over a week) to early death (late 20's).


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## sostenuto (Jul 25, 2019)

Gonna wait for OTS Classical Finger Plucked. Make take a while ....


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 25, 2019)

Mark Schmieder said:


> EW Gypsy: Classical Guitar (Play) — nice timbre, good legato, but few articulations



I was going to add that to the list.

To me the sound is more than just nice, it's gorgeous. But I don't need lots of articulations.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 25, 2019)

Yeah, Gypsy might be enough if you use legato a lot, as the particular implementation covers stuff that might otherwise be considered missing. I didn't have much luck with it on highly staccato playing styles, but haven't tried in a while, and I would expect it should handle that stuff well as it is for Gypsy music.


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## ScarletJerry (Jul 25, 2019)

I know this thread is not about iOS instruments, but the Beathawk app with the Baroque iAP is very convincing:


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## Batrawi (Jul 25, 2019)

Check Django from ISW. It's advertised for gypsy/jazz but I find its hyper realism (such as notes pre-attack, noises, squeaks, fast notes auto-detuning etc..) is what you would typically hear in any true to life guitar performance...so it'll sound very authentic in classical context IMO.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 25, 2019)

I don't believe those are nylon strings on the Selmer-Maccaferri style guitar. I once owned one a few years ago but really didn't like how it felt or sounded, as it was too harsh and bright and aggressive.

I would be surprised if nylon strings did well tension-wise on such a guitar, but those guitars do tend to be longer scale like many traditional flamenco guitars (mine was 26.75" scale as I recall).

I own the ISW Django library but haven't found a use for it yet. Well-recorded but it just doesn't yet fit any projects I have. It's strictly plectrum-based, and presumably the special ultra-thick non-flat weird-textured pick was used (I had one of those too; they're kind of necessary on such a guitar but didn't translate too well to other guitars or instruments).

It's a very aggressive and percussive, bright sound. Categorized as an arch-top, the arch is quite muted compared to modern jazz guitars, so many people look at them and think they're flat-tops. In fact, a lot of players do end up using flat-top folk guitars in Gypsy Swing bands. In the one I belong to, there's someone on flat-top and another on an L5 acoustic (not acoustic-electric).


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 27, 2019)

Although the OP asked about nylon guitar for classical, several people have already sidetracked to bossa nova, and that's what I focused on tonight for a bit over an hour while trying to learn Ilya Efimov's Nylon Guitar library (non-strummed version).

I suspect this is the best library, but that it will take a LOT of work -- at least initially, until setting up one's preferred templates. It's a very deep library and the user manual has a lot of errors (usually obvious) and some omissions. So it takes a bit of experimenting to figure out the features properly.

Out of the box, I much prefer VSL Concert Guitar, but I quickly learned that the Compressor seriously degrades the Ilya Efimov library and is turned on in most of the presets. Ironically, the sound cuts through the mix LESS with the compressor on, and it tends to destroy the upper mids and clarity as well as note attack and "zing". I also found that I need to at least set CC4 (nail sound) to 12-16 or more, for tracks already recorded. Ideally one would probably control this CC in real time. It defaults to zero.

I also turn off the Reverb, as I rarely find track-level baked-in reverb to be useful in an overall mix. It does seem that they picked some fairly nice ones to use; these are not references to ones in Kontakt.

The most striking difference is that VSL was clearly miked at some distance, and though this helps with tonal balance, it also diminishes the dynamism, even though the nail sound is quite strong in that library and that does help with dynamics and note attack as well as the upper mids. There is no mic mix in Ilya Efimov's library, so I don't know if it's a pre-blend or if fairly close mics were used in a single pair.

Overall, the Ilya Efimov library sounds more authentic, but it's going to be like working with Soniccouture libraries, where one really does need to dig in and fine-tune each parameter, of which there are a gazillion. It also benefits from being specific; whereas VSL Concert Guitar only has the generic controls common to all Vienna Instruments libraries.

Articulation sets are equivalent due to all of the mappings in Ilya Efimov's library, but the latter also allows for auto-detection, kind of like Sample Modeling's libraries in that regard, based on nearby note analysis (and you can set the gap that is used for combining notes to analyze for chords etc.).

As I'm about to drop, I can't do any more experimenting tonight, but one matter of confusion is that the presets tend to turn on Chord A and Chord B modes. I had turned both off but found that for bossa nova playing, I at least need Chord A engaged, as I'm playing grace notes but not melody lines per se. It seems like Chord B mode could be undesirable except for fast strumming, which I'm not doing -- this particular arrangement is deliberately "stretching" the chords into pseudo-fast-played-arpeggios instead. I'll try with only Chord A engaged tomorrow and see if my remaining glitches go away.

This is a very resource-intense library and I sometimes have to run it more than once as it can hiccup or even stall. The GUI can stop reacting as well, when you click to look at the Options page. And that's with nothing else much loaded.

For purposes of this evaluation, after having quickly run through the available presets, I chose Modern Bossa as the starting point, turned off compression and reverb, tweaked a few other things, and also bumped up the Note On velocity by 8 on my pre-recorded part as the velocity sensitivity is different from VSL and is also applied differently, so I needed the stronger notes to more frequently be above 100 in order to get the correct results.

Playing a new part from scratch would be ideal, of course, and I had already tweaked this originally-live part (played on a guitar and converted to MIDI using Melodyne) to idealize it for VSL Concert Guitar rendering. Feeding already-tweaked pre-recorded parts into another library rarely gets the best A/B comparisons, so I at least made a few minor adjustments to level the playing field a bit.

Given my results in the bossa nova genre, I suspect that I will at least occasionally get better results in the classical domain as well. I have one arrangement -- also originally played on a real guitar and converted to MIDI while the song arrangement/keys/tempi are in flux -- that was going to need a LOT of key switching if rendered in its final version using VSL Concert Guitar, so that one will be a good test of the Ilya Efimov Nylon Guitar phrasing and articulation engine and how well it interprets intent.

What is already obvious from tonight's bossa nova experiment, is that its engine is quite good at detecting legato, introducing slides, choosing the correct string for grouped notes that are within a human playing range (I set Guitar Mode vs. Keyboard Mode), and lots of other things that VSL Concert Guitar simply doesn't cover. But I'm not quite ready yet to bump it to top of list, until I can match the consistency of cutting through the mix that I get with VSL Concert Guitar -- an attribute that can sometimes trump other qualities.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 28, 2019)

I spent about 3-1/2 hours on my Bossa Nova arrangement tonight, reading each user manual thoroughly and pushing to a level of confidence on each (the exception being Chris Hein Guitars, which I still am seeing seize up mid-track even with simple settings).

The simple conclusion is that the ideal nylon guitar for Bossa Nova (and maybe Classical too; I'll get to that tomorrow morning), would be an OTS Evolution Modern Guitar that is finger-picked vs. plectrum.

As it stands, I am back once again to VSL Concert Guitar as first choice, just because it sits in the mix so consistently. It is further aided by applying the Maag EQ4 plug-in, which helps with the note attack.

Of the ones that have some algorithms for chord detection, string choice, etc., it was a bit of a surprise to find that OTS Evolution Modern Guitar is at least 99% artifact free and successful with challenging parts such as this one. It took no work at all in that regard, whereas I couldn't find compromise settings with Ilya Efimov Nylon Guitar or Pettinhouse ClassicGuitar v2, that gave perfect results. VSL doesn't either, but it doesn't have an engine per se. It stumbles infrequently enough that it isn't noticeable in a mix. I do wish the miking were a bit closer though.

My best success with OTS Evolution Modern Nylon came from actually going to a preset (something I rarely do), as a starting point. I found "Sunny Side" to have the warmest and least boomy basic timbre, but I did have to turn off the Reverb and Compression, and tweak the Low EQ to pull down the gain reduction to about 10 0'clock so that enough low end would be removed and it would sit in the mix.

ClassicGuitar v2 is fairly strong overall. There's a slight mid-honk to the mics used, but that could be dialed out with EQ. Overall, it is free of low-end boom, but does get tricked out a bit by playing that straddles the line between chords and arpeggios (such as my personal Bossa Nova style, influenced by what I hear on my favourite records). I didn't have the patience to do MIDI editing to force some of its articulations using maximum note velocity, nor do I quite understand if the variant strumming mode key switches also behave that way as the user manual is inconsistent in that part of the write-up. So I probably didn't quite get the best out of this library yet. Still, I felt the timbre was better in the others.

Gypsy is a bit dark, and doesn't lend itself well to Bossa Nova, but I suspect it will do well in my Classical experiments tomorrow. And as with everything else in ST4, the more I work with it, the more disappointed I am, after having been worked up by how many rarely-sampled instruments were added since ST3. There's a mid-honk to ALL of the mics, and some unpleasant ambience that is a bit phasey and can't be dialed out. I will probably sell ST4 MAX is it's allowed; I just don't like the miking choices.

For this one piece (which dates back to 1982 to 1985, and was originally done using a Gibson ES-175 as I didn't know at the time that Bossa Nova usually goes with Nylon Guitar), I am probably going to re-do the VSL Concert Guitar part live anyway, using either Classical or Flamenco Guitar, and then double a few parts here and there with Cavaquinho (steel-string and with a plectrum), where special emphasis or attack helps with the phrasing of the flute melody and with melding with the upright bass (no drum set on this one, just as with most Bossa Nova, but instead some Surdo and some Brasilian Percussion).


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## CGR (Jul 28, 2019)

Mark Schmieder said:


> I spent about 3-1/2 hours on my Bossa Nova arrangement tonight, reading each user manual thoroughly and pushing to a level of confidence on each (the exception being Chris Hein Guitars, which I still am seeing seize up mid-track even with simple settings).
> 
> The simple conclusion is that the ideal nylon guitar for Bossa Nova (and maybe Classical too; I'll get to that tomorrow morning), would be an OTS Evolution Modern Guitar that is finger-picked vs. plectrum.
> 
> ...


Interested to hear some of your tracks Mark - I enjoy listening to Bossa Nova music. You can post links in the 'Members Compositions' section.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 28, 2019)

Unfortunately I can't post this one, as it's a Bossa Nova arrangement of ELO's "Don't Bring me Down". All of my Bossa Nova so far comprises of "unexpected" arrangements of existing songs.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 28, 2019)

I had one last track to compare before moving on to the two orchestral pieces. This one is an original, influenced heavily by David Bowie's "Scary Monsters" period, and is combined with Castanets/etc. during the Choruses for a Flamenco feel.

The same order of preference presented itself as is in my updated rankings on the first page of this thread. But as I intend for this to be a Flamenco part and will likely play the final take on my actual (recently arrived) Flamenco Guitar, I also tried Flamenco Guitar sound sources (there are only three that I know of), and the one in EW Gypsy turned out to be as good as I remembered.

OTS Evolution Modern Nylon can also be used for Flamenco, and works OK in that context. The third one is the one in UVI World Suite, which I think was originally in V1 of MOTU Ethno so it's a bit old and less detailed than newer libraries.

For this particular song, using the sample library approach for now, my best results came from double-tracking with VSL Concert Guitar and EW Gypsy's Flamenco Guitar.

This approach might work well in some other contexts as well. In some cases, the timbre and/or the note handling may be more authentic and/or accurate in another library, but VSL Concert Guitar's timbre and note attack (it was played very much with the nails!), help the track to cut through a mix without being in-your-face.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 28, 2019)

My memory wasn't so good; I do have a fair amount of classical guitar on currently-inactive orchestral projects, but for the stuff I am wrapping up and preparing to release, the other piece is one of my two very-different-from-each-other arrangements of Chick Corea's "Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy".

This particular arrangement features violin, Moog synthesizer, FM Bass, Rhodes Electric Piano, Waterphone, Drum Corps, and Nylon Guitar. The latter is best served by Flamenco Guitar, and after re-rendering with Gypsy, it worked better than VSL Concert Guitar for that context (a lot of very fast passages that are highly percussive, dry, and staccato-ish, almost like they're hammered notes), and I didn't find an ideal blend ratio yet but there are many categories of articulation and I'm still being lazy just using one in the rendering. Even so, the conclusion was quite clear.

Even outside of traditional Flamenco music (or Nuevo Flamenco for that matter), this exercise was a good lesson in when and why to use Flamenco vs. Classical Guitar, and also when a blend can be ideal. VSL Concert Guitar itself seems to be mid-way between the two, which isn't surprising as it is a unique design (as a physical instrument; not even getting to the player or the miking and sampling).

By its nature, a Classical Guitar is generally going to have more sustain than a Flamenco Guitar, even when played somewhat percussively, with hammer-on, etc. It's a difficult instrument to mic well (at least with cheaper mics vs. Schoeps or some nice tube condensers), as bass buildup can be an issue an d it can get muddy. This is what I listen for in the sample libraries, and I try to see right away if it can be EQ's to sit well and to be balanced. The libraries in my top tier are ones that address that.

I'll give a quick review of the classical context now, for the one arrangement that is hyper-active in my workload that fits that description. It's a simple single-note part (no chords or counterpoint) so it'll be a different sort of test than the runs I have run thus far. Probably more about timbre and note expression.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 28, 2019)

I have to leave for my jazz gig in a few minutes, so a full "sits in the mix" analysis will have to wait until later tonight, but my initial conclusion is that Ilya Efimov is far and away the best nylon guitar library for non-chordal classical playing.

I think this reflects on the string choice algorithm as well as the recording quality and the player.

Pettinhouse is close in some ways, but has notes that jump out as not being as fluid, so I suspect the string choice algorithm isn't quite as advanced as Ilya Efimov's. I may tweak it some more later tonight though, as it has a somewhat sharper attack overall.

VSL falls down on this specific type of playing in this one piece, which is mostly arpeggios at moderate tempo. It never sounds like string choice was involved, and as the note range of the phrase gets quite large, this flaw becomes more obvious in this context.

EW Gypsy is quite nice but shows its own flaws in this context. EQ could take care of it being a bit too dark, but the compressed sound seems baked in; the dynamic range is quite limited. It's a shame as overall its timbral quality is one of the better ones. I am referring to its Classical Guitar at this point.

Chris Hein Guitars sounded like a Xylophone in this context, so I surely must be missing some basics on how to work with this library.

I didn't bother trying SampleTank 4's new 300MB+ Nylon G, as it's a Brasilian guitar, not miked to my liking, and not a timbre that I associate with classical playing vs. Bossa Nova.

As I weight some criteria higher than others, this means that my preliminary ranking has Ilya Efimov followed by Pettinhouse, then VSL, EW Gypsy, OTS Evolution (though the pick sound is quite strong in this context and detracts to the point of dismissing it out of hand), Chris Hein (with the caveat of user error probably being at play), and the untested (due to time) ST4 Nylon G.


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## robgb (Jul 28, 2019)

Renaxxance Nylon String Guitar — Indiginus







www.indiginus.com


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 29, 2019)

I just spent about 2-1/2 hours getting much deeper on all five of my top-ranked libraries in the context of classical work, and the rankings bounced back and forth many times until I was confident that they were stable, meaning that I felt I had reached a level of understanding of what is the best that each has to offer when set and triggered properly vs. fed the same input in each case.

Ilya Efimov has no competition in my view, for classical, for realism of phrasing and fingering specifics. Unless one of the others mentioned here (Indignus and AmpleSound, primarily) can up the ante.

As I mentioned earlier, it can take a bit more work initially, to match one's playing and/or MIDI editing, but it's worth the effort, because the rewards seem unique to this library. For instance, Legato Mode figures out if the note sequence is possible on the same string, and then applies Hammer On and Pull Off based on whether the interval goes down or up. This adds an immense amount of realism.

It's possible that I'm just not getting Pettinhouse's ClassicGuitar2, because it keeps falling down a few notches once I dig further, due to some oddities that I'm not yet convinced are avoidable. Something about the note attack (regardless of note velocity), and what seems like incorrect string selection that can cause notes to jump out (regardless of note velocity). But I may still have missed some of the possible key switch and CC interactions that would play better, just as with Chris Hein Guitars.

VSL stays at #2 just because it sits in the mix so well and has so many articulations, as well as being well-played, but it definitely was miked a bit too far away for maximum flexibility of sound shaping, and is perhaps a bit too aggressive in its nail-based playing to be as versatile as Ilya Efimov.

EW Gypsy ended up at #3 (with Pettinhouse at #4, and OTS Modern Nylon at #5 in spite of the plectrum-based playing knocking it completely off the list for most classical work). I found with Gypsy that I could get a wider dynamic range out of it if I kept almost all note velocities below 90, but it still sounds like it has some compression baked-in, and this marks it down a bit, combined with it not doing advanced string selection and other stuff. Really nice timbre on most of the guitars in EW Gypsy though. A bit darker than most, but that also makes it fairly authentic, and is nothing that EQ can't take care of.

I am now using only the default settings for Ilya Efimov, and waiting downstream for effects. I am getting much more realistic results by skipping its presets, bypassing all effects including EQ, and then making my own settings here and there as needed. Of course I turned off both Chord Modes for this linear playing that I was working on just now, as there are no chords or pseudo-chords in this piece.

I haven't tried the strumming library from Ilya Efimov yet. I just figured I might as well buy it in the bundle as it wasn't much more that way, and I may at some point want a strumming sound that is nylon based, even though strumming in general is no longer a big part of my musical vocabulary; just as I avoid block chord style playing as cliche and unlikely to lead to original music that isn't super derivative.


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## pettinhouse (Aug 12, 2019)

Mark Schmieder said:


> I just spent about 2-1/2 hours getting much deeper on all five of my top-ranked libraries in the context of classical work, and the rankings bounced back and forth many times until I was confident that they were stable, meaning that I felt I had reached a level of understanding of what is the best that each has to offer when set and triggered properly vs. fed the same input in each case.
> 
> Ilya Efimov has no competition in my view, for classical, for realism of phrasing and fingering specifics. Unless one of the others mentioned here (Indignus and AmpleSound, primarily) can up the ante.
> 
> ...




Hi Mark, could you please write to me at [email protected]
I want to understand better what you mean by “Something about the note attack (regardless of note velocity), and what seems like incorrect string selection that can cause notes to jump out (regardless of note velocity)” and why not fix the problem.
Thank you,
Andrea


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## johnplush (Feb 4, 2022)

On grounds of cost and drive-space, it's VSL concert standard library or Chris Hein Nylon (fingered) for me, but I want to be able to use a fairly strong vibrato from time to time. The VSL baked-in vibrato is commendably subtle, but just sometimes I want more! Is Chris Hein's vibrato control effective? Also, does VSL Standard offer a close-mic postion? Thanks to anyone who has either library and can fill me in on these details...


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## Mark Schmieder (Feb 4, 2022)

I sold the CH guitars as I could never figure them out, even with the user manual. The actual recording quality is great, but the programming is old, unless there's been a re-release that pulls in all of what he's learned in the decades since (which is a lot).

I just couldn't get realistic phrasing no matter how hard I tried with the controllers and settings, and lots of hiccups, even if using edited MIDI to trigger, careful about overlap and gaps.

As an alternate to VSL, if you want more flavors or options, look at Ilya Efimov's library and even the cheap one from Pettinhouse. I use all three of these libraries, depending on the material.


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## sostenuto (Feb 4, 2022)

So no Orange Tree Samples choices make the grade ?? ☹️


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## Mark Schmieder (Feb 4, 2022)

Read the whole thread and you'll see why OTS isn't recommended. Depending on your application, of course! It is a plectrum-only library, oriented towards Bossa Nova. Unless they have a newer nylon library I'm not aware of (I don't really pay attention to new releases any more as I am getting out of the sampling world except for VSL stuff).


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## Fab (Feb 4, 2022)

VgsA said:


> I guess it depends on the kind of sound you're after, I usually use my fingers for classical, but for example for this one I used a pick for the melody:
> 
> 
> (Although I did use my fingers for pretty much everything else)



That was very evocative!


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## Zanshin (Feb 4, 2022)

I’m no classical guitar aficionado. I bought Synchron-ized Plucked for the Upright Bass but the Concert Guitar turned out to be the star of the show. It’s a great instrument, inspiring under the fingers.

I can see why it’s @Mark Schmieder favorite.


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## johnplush (Feb 5, 2022)

In the past I have got the hang of another Chris Hein library (Horns), and would like to think I can hack his Nylon Guitar - but has anyone out there any experience of the vibrato control? I really would like to have an idea of how it sounds/works...


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## MusicStudent (Feb 5, 2022)

Any thoughts on the more recent Session Guitar Picked Nylon? https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/guitar/session-guitarist-picked-nylon/


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## dyross (Feb 17, 2022)

@Mark Schmieder did you ever get around to trying Ample AGL? If so, where does it rank in your list?

One thing I’m prioritizing is articulation programming flexibility and smart voicing. My use case is a bit strange - I’m primarily composing in Dorico which is opinionated about how it renders midi from notation. 

Thanks,
David


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## Mark Schmieder (Feb 17, 2022)

Nope, I only ever bought the upright bass and one of their early libs (I forget which one).

I found the timbre of the Ample Sound upright bass almost identical to VSL's (both of which are significantly different from every other offering out there), and as they didn't sample an extension, I sold it as VSL uniquely samples one that was extended down to C.

It is extremely well recorded and has great features. I expect the same would be true of the nylon guitar, but all of their products came along after I had already reached 100% satisfaction with other libraries.

I also found their standalone a bit demanding resource-wise. It's probably more efficient by now. And they are very generous with their free updates.


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## dyross (Feb 17, 2022)

Gotcha, thanks!


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## Lee Blaske (Feb 17, 2022)

MusicStudent said:


> Any thoughts on the more recent Session Guitar Picked Nylon? https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/guitar/session-guitarist-picked-nylon/


I think it's really a nice instrument, and easy to play. It's a fairly produced sound, though, so you might find it to be a bit big and beefy if you're going for more of a legit sound. But, if you want a nylon guitar in any kind of pop track, it's perfect.


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## Saxer (Feb 17, 2022)

Spectrasonics Extensions Nylon Sky for Omnisphere is a good one too. Lots of presets with Spectrasonics trend to sound design but the sampling and recording itself is excellent. 




__





Nylon Sky - Sounds | Sonic Extensions


Nylon Sky™ is an inspiring Sonic Extension for Omnisphere from guitar sampling legend Bob Daspit - featuring gorgeous hybrid ambient guitar sounds, organic textures and two exclusive new effects! Sky Verb is a beautiful shimmer reverb and Sky Channel is a Class-A channel strip effect. Authentic ...




www.sonicextensions.com


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