# Best Practice: For integrating external synths with DAW



## pmountford (Mar 23, 2021)

Struggling to integrate the synths as I want them into my workflow so I'd ben interested to hear how others are getting on as I must be missing something obvious.

I'm using Cubase 11 on Windows, a Roland stage piano as master keyboard and have 4 keyboarded synths (from different manufacturers) all connected via USB. I'm having to use Local mode in each synth to allow enable Cubase record to work. Is this the best way? If you want to just jam on the synths though you have to switch back to non local which is a PITA. 

Also, how do you get on with playing Arps/Sequences from the synths? Still going through the settings of each synth, but only able to play Arps from the synths when local mode is disabled but then obviously that can screw up the MIDI coming back out of Cubase and back in to the synths.

Really interested to hear how you all connect your external gear, pitfalls, limitations etc to see if I'm just doing it wrong.


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## whinecellar (Mar 23, 2021)

I did a studio tour video a year ago where I delve into that stuff a bit. Long story short, I can play all my synths right from my main controller through Logic, but I also love interacting with them directly, especially for tweaking sounds and automating them - in which case I usually have to turn local off. Makes me wish mfrs would put a dedicated local off switch on their synths - it’s a pain to menu dive on many of them!


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## Paulogic (Mar 23, 2021)

I was used to keep my synths in local off and route the midi back to my synth using Cubase.
(Logic a few years ago). This worked fine with an unmentionable latency. I had a Motu Midi-express
and with not to long cables this was a good way to work. 
Once every midi-sequence was done for all of the fysical synths and VI's, I recorded them through
my mixer in an audio-track and had to advance these only a fraction to sit tight with the rendered
VI's. Now I have only a Modal Skulpt but haven't recorded anything with it yet.
I'm waiting for my 88 keys controller to rebuilt my setup.


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## wst3 (Mar 23, 2021)

This is the reason I replaced almost all of my keyboard synthesizers with their rack mounted counterparts. For a while there I was really missing the interaction with the keyboard version, but late last year I picked up a Kiwi Technics Patch Editor, which has made playing synthesizers fun again. When I was using keyboards I always left local off - as someone pointed out it was a hassle to change it back and forth. It caused no problems that I can remember.


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## pmountford (Mar 23, 2021)

Thanks for this input. Great video and insight into your setup @whinecellar too. 

Happy to make workflow to just keep switching between local on/off if that's what's usually done. But having problems with arp playback as in they don't play when in local mode. Is this what you find too? (In Cubase preferences I have midi clock running when playback stopped thinking this might help).


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## IFM (Mar 23, 2021)

I just have a key command to disable midi thru in C11 so that I can record the external synths by actually playing them. LP is a bit more complicated.


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## whinecellar (Mar 23, 2021)

IFM said:


> I just have a key command to disable midi thru in C11 so that I can record the external synths by actually playing them. LP is a bit more complicated.


Along those lines, a quick and easy thing I do in Logic to get around the local on/off issue is simply create a dummy track so MIDI isn’t passed through to the synth I’m working on. That way I can capture the midi from a synth while messing with its controllers, and afterward, simply drag the region to the synth’s track (and there’s a key command for that).


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## IFM (Mar 23, 2021)

whinecellar said:


> Along those lines, a quick and easy thing I do in Logic to get around the local on/off issue is simply create a dummy track so MIDI isn’t passed through to the synth I’m working on. That way I can capture the midi from a synth while messing with its controllers, and afterward, simply drag the region to the synth’s track (and there’s a key command for that).


the Downside to that is listening back to what you recorded and punching in. An alternate in LP would be to not arm the track but use capture last take which is usually how I do everything anyways.


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## whinecellar (Mar 24, 2021)

IFM said:


> the Downside to that is listening back to what you recorded and punching in. An alternate in LP would be to not arm the track but use capture last take which is usually how I do everything anyways.


Yep, true. I know it’s probably not the norm, but I’ve never been a fan of punching in - I just play until I do something I like and then “capture last take.” I don’t think I’ve used traditional record mode for MIDI parts in close to 30 years on Logic. I forget you can simply disarm a track - Logic always wants to arm them. Good tip!


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## chillbot (Mar 24, 2021)

I feel like I'm missing part of the conversation here somehow in regards to the local on/off. What reason is there to have local on?

I use cakewalk on Win10 so maybe it is the dumbed down version but the way I've done it my entire life is to always have local off on everything. Don't think I've ever had to switch local on for any synth ever.

All midi from every keyboard goes into cakewalk. All synths are set to receive midi omni from everywhere. So if I am "jamming" on a synth... local is off, and I'm essentially controlling the synth through cakewalk, i.e. all midi is going in to cakewalk, then back out to the synth I'm playing to trigger it. No noticeable latency. I can trigger any synth from any other synth. Oh but the synth audio is not going into the DAW, all audio goes through external mixers first then back into the DAW as needed.

For arps and whatnot I used to have them all sync to the DAW via midi but I've gotten lazy over the years and I tend to print 90% of everything I do as audio in the end, so more often these days if I'm fiddling with a cool arp or sequence I just hit a button to bounce it as audio in real time, which is fun because I can then do a synth performance tweaking knobs as it records. Yes, not very flexible you are stuck with the performance(s). But I'll save the patch and make a few notes about what I did in the DAW and if I ever have to redo it at some point... well that's kind of fun, too.


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## whinecellar (Mar 24, 2021)

@chillbot - Unfortunately some synths don’t have the best implementations when in local off mode; that’s the main reason for me anyway. Roland stuff in particular is one example. Drives me crazy. Several of my more recent synths are much happier with local on, really.

The other thing is that I’ll often get an idea in the middle of the night after my computer is shut down, or I just want to noodle with a synth. I wish manufacturers would make it much easier to toggle, and/or make them behave identically when in local off mode, but here we are...


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## chillbot (Mar 24, 2021)

whinecellar said:


> Unfortunately some synths don’t have the best implementations when in local off mode; that’s the main reason for me anyway. Roland stuff in particular is one example.


Appreciate the insight. Can't believe 30 years playing with synths and I've never noticed if there was a difference between local on or off in regards to the actual synth.

I don't have any Roland keyboards though, aside from the RD2000 which is in another room. For Roland I have the XV5080, JP8080, Integra-7, V-Synth XT, and Fantom XR but they are all racked and to be honest aside from the JP8080 I hardly ever fiddle with the racked synths except via the DAW. The issue is too many synths (ha!) so I can't necessarily reach every synth and a keyboard to trigger it at the same time. If the DAW is triggering the synth then I can go over and tweak it but like you say sometimes you just want to noodle with a synth...


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## stixman (Mar 24, 2021)

Just working the Tascam Model 12 into my setup...wow it went smoother than I anticipated...because it only receives Midi Clock//MTC...does not transmit...had problems in the past as Cubase doesn’t like to be slave but got Tempest Toraiz SP16 Polyend Medusa synced tight with Cubase so I’m super happy...now to integrate the rest but I can highly recommend this machine as you don’t even need to turn on computer.


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## gsilbers (Mar 24, 2021)

whinecellar said:


> I did a studio tour video a year ago where I delve into that stuff a bit. Long story short, I can play all my synths right from my main controller through Logic, but I also love interacting with them directly, especially for tweaking sounds and automating them - in which case I usually have to turn local off. Makes me wish mfrs would put a dedicated local off switch on their synths - it’s a pain to menu dive on many of them!



I’m curious About the Roland Jupiter x vs the Roland system 8.

they seem to be the same or similar synth as both use the same plug out algorithms.

what’s the main difference besides the knobs/faders/exterior?


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## pmountford (Mar 24, 2021)

chillbot said:


> What reason is there to have local on?


In my case I'm still getting grips with the hardware so I don't always have the DAW on. 

I'm also noticing a few weird midi triggering issues when playing local off which is why I originally asked how y'all set your synths up. I'm sure my midi issues are related to how each synth needs to be set up as the Novation so far is playing ball far nicer than the others. But still working through midi sync issues. The intention is to play each synth as well as having option to control via masterkeyboard as that's a weighted action.


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## pmountford (Mar 24, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> I’m curious About the Roland Jupiter x vs the Roland system 8


Not to derail my own thread, but I'm curious too!


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## whinecellar (Mar 24, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> I’m curious About the Roland Jupiter x vs the Roland system 8.
> 
> they seem to be the same or similar synth as both use the same plug out algorithms.
> 
> what’s the main difference besides the knobs/faders/exterior?


Funny you should ask - I did a video comparing them not long ago! And shortly afterward, I let go of the Jupiter X. I also have a Fantom 7 which has all the same vintage models I care about, and ironically, it’s a bit easier to edit. And to me, the System 8 just has a bit more authenticity for those iconic sounds - which isn’t surprising considering it has Roland’s top modeling technology, where the Jupiter X has the newer “Zencore” which is more efficient, but doesn’t go quite as extreme with the modeling:


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## gsilbers (Mar 24, 2021)

whinecellar said:


> Funny you should ask - I did a video comparing them not long ago! And shortly afterward, I let go of the Jupiter X. I also have a Fantom 7 which has all the same vintage models I care about, and ironically, it’s a bit easier to edit. And to me, the System 8 just has a bit more authenticity for those iconic sounds - which isn’t surprising considering it has Roland’s top modeling technology, where the Jupiter X has the newer “Zencore” which is more efficient, but doesn’t go quite as extreme with the modeling:




cool. nice comparison .


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## ckett (Mar 25, 2021)

whinecellar said:


> Funny you should ask - I did a video comparing them not long ago! And shortly afterward, I let go of the Jupiter X. I also have a Fantom 7 which has all the same vintage models I care about, and ironically, it’s a bit easier to edit. And to me, the System 8 just has a bit more authenticity for those iconic sounds - which isn’t surprising considering it has Roland’s top modeling technology, where the Jupiter X has the newer “Zencore” which is more efficient, but doesn’t go quite as extreme with the modeling:



Jim,

I've tried the keys on the Fantom 7 and they are really nice! Are they the same keys as some of the older Fantoms like the X7? Trying to find a premium 76 synth weighted keybed. The only ones i have liked are on the Roland and Yamaha top tier workstations.


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## whinecellar (Mar 25, 2021)

ckett said:


> Jim,
> 
> I've tried the keys on the Fantom 7 and they are really nice! Are they the same keys as some of the older Fantoms like the X7? Trying to find a premium 76 synth weighted keybed. The only ones i have liked are on the Roland and Yamaha top tier workstations.


Yes indeed, the keybed in the new Fantom 7 is absolutely top tier. It’s a little lighter than Roland’s previous top-end keybeds, but it’s also softer and quieter too! The previous ones were excellent as well - Roland has always made my favorite synth actions along with the high end Yamaha stuff. The 3rd contender for top of the line, IMO, is the Fatar keybed used in the Moog One and Access Virus KB. That one is superb and I don’t know why more companies don’t use it!


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## ckett (Mar 25, 2021)

whinecellar said:


> Yes indeed, the keybed in the new Fantom 7 is absolutely top tier. It’s a little lighter than Roland’s previous top-end keybeds, but it’s also softer and quieter too! The previous ones were excellent as well - Roland has always made my favorite synth actions along with the high end Yamaha stuff. The 3rd contender for top of the line, IMO, is the Fatar keybed used in the Moog One and Access Virus KB. That one is superb and I don’t know why more companies don’t use it!


Thanks for the info! Yes, the Virus keybed uses the Fatar TP/8S which was also used in the Roland A70, another excellent midi synth keybed. I would be thrilled for another A70 design with excellent sliders and knobs!


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## khollister (Mar 26, 2021)

A bit late on the original question, but I have gone through the HW integration thing in the past year or so as I made the move back to HW synths from ITB. I'm on Logic and my physical setup is:

Incoming MIDI from HW (synths or eurorack) is USB. Any jitter (Logic is actually pretty good here according to Admiral Bumblebee's tests) can be easily dealt with by quantizing.
Outgoing MIDI is via Expert Sleepers ES-40/ESX-8MD eurorack modules for sample accurate MIDI. I find this critical (or something similar from other manufacturers) especially if you plan to use sequencers/ARP's in external HW - otherwise clock drift/jitter will rear its ugly head in short order. The Expert Sleepers kit can also generate sync over MIDI DIN (as opposed to MIDI clock) for vintage gear or to be a master clock for eurorack rigs. In my case I use DIN sync from the Expert Sleepers to slave a Pam's New Workout (PNW) clock module in the rack to Logic so everything is synced up.
Local control stays ON in all external MIDI HW.
I use an Expert Sleepers ES-3/ES-5 combo to directly generate CV gates, triggers, pitch and CC's from Logic to modular stuff.
The workflow is:

Each part from an external instrument eventually becomes a track stack/folder with 3 tracks - incoming MIDI for the USB port (MIDI track), outgoing MIDI to the ES (SW instrument track using the ES Silent Way ES-4 controller plugin) and an audio track for the incoming audio from the HW.
If I want to either noodle on the synth or record from it while playing the local keyboard without having everything doubled via the loopback in Logic, I either don't create the outgoing MIDI track or mute it.
If I want to play/record from the master keyboard, I record arm the ES outgoing MIDI track and ignore the incoming USB MIDI track. If I am recording something on a synth with patch memory and don't need to tweak a patch from the synth, I won't even instantiate the USB MIDI track at all.
If I record from the synth keyboard onto the USB MIDI track, I do have to copy the MIDI region(s) onto the outgoing ES MIDI track for playback. Far easier than menu diving to turn off local control on the HW.
This sounds complicated to manage compared to the option the OP (in Cubase) has with creating external instruments and using a single track like VI's, but that has a huge problem in Cubase of not being able to reuse that instrument on multiple tracks (along with the local control issue). I decided to go the separate MIDI/audio track route for flexibility. Using the Expert Sleeper sample accurate MIDI solution makes this easier in some ways since the outgoing and incoming MIDI are on separate tracks and incoming MIDI via USB isn't looped back.


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## darkogav (Mar 26, 2021)

stixman said:


> Just working the Tascam Model 12 into my setup...wow it went smoother than I anticipated...because it only receives Midi Clock//MTC...does not transmit...had problems in the past as Cubase doesn’t like to be slave but got Tempest Toraiz SP16 Polyend Medusa synced tight with Cubase so I’m super happy...now to integrate the rest but I can highly recommend this machine as you don’t even need to turn on computer.


just curios with your decision to use this. Are you going DAW less or is the M12 someone integreated and connected to a DAW?


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## khollister (Mar 26, 2021)

I should add that the ES-40/ESX-8MD uses a stereo S/PDIF output from your audio interface to generate the MIDI channels, and the ES-3 uses an ADAT output to drive the 8 CV channels (plus trigger channels on the ES-5). A fringe benefit is the 8 CV outs are really full bandwidth audio channels, so you can use a pair of those (or more) to directly route audio from the DAW into your modular rig.


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## vitocorleone123 (Mar 26, 2021)

I didn't even know what Local was - I think only the OB-6 has that. But, then, I specifically purchased only desktop modules with presets and controllable via MIDI ccs. I wanted a "hybrid" studio where it's easy to integrate hardware and software. That said, I only have a few pieces, because this is also my workspace for my day job these days, so space is extremely limited.

3 synths (2 stereo, 1 mono), one FX chain (stereo), and one audio out to an Expert Sleepers USAMO for stable MIDI clock are connected to my interface.

MIDI to synths and FX is only via my interface.

OUT
USAMO, MIDI out from interface, and MIDI out from iOS (optional) go into a Kenton MIDI Merge. From the Merge, they go into a Kenton MIDI Thru out to all synths and FX chain.

IN
MIDI out the Digitone and from my FX chain go in to a Kenton MIDI Merge and into the audio interface.

DAW
Studio One Pipeline routes things in and out very easily with good latency compensation. My MIDI controller is currently USB, admittedly, for convenience. The start/end time of recorded audio still needs to be trimmed/aligned - usually by just a few ms. Once lined up, everything is pretty much perfectly aligned, because there's no noticeable jitter; beats hit on the beat every time. Recorded MIDI is only from my controller or the Digitone. The MIDI in from my FX is used to update the built-in generic controller interface of Studio One so I can manipulate the FX or automate them from the DAW and have the current values displayed if I move a knob on one.

My setup requires the computer to be on and the DAW running. Many times I get it setup on the routing, hit play, and turn off the screen. That's my "DAWless" operation mode. On the flip side, it's incredibly simple to blend hardware and software synths and effects, or run a software synth into my FX chain that has an analog component.


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## stixman (Mar 26, 2021)

Yes hybrid performance setup,M12 -Kenton thru 5- 1 1 goes Daw icconectivity mio xl 1 to Cirklon etc still got more adding then create some external fix later...but M12 master. Audio is controlled via tb3 quantum 2626 just need the midi sync for start stop.


darkogav said:


> just curios with your decision to use this. Are you going DAW less or is the M12 someone integreated and connected to a DAW?


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## IFM (Apr 5, 2021)

whinecellar said:


> Yep, true. I know it’s probably not the norm, but I’ve never been a fan of punching in - I just play until I do something I like and then “capture last take.” I don’t think I’ve used traditional record mode for MIDI parts in close to 30 years on Logic. I forget you can simply disarm a track - Logic always wants to arm them. Good tip!


For those that wander into this thread keep in mind that if you choose to use the External Synth plugin you lose the Patch/Bank options and have to program those in. If you want to use MIDI tracks instead you'll need to create the objects in the environment first.


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## whinecellar (Apr 5, 2021)

IFM said:


> For those that wander into this thread keep in mind that if you choose to use the External Synth plugin you lose the Patch/Bank options and have to program those in. If you want to use MIDI tracks instead you'll need to create the objects in the environment first.


Yes, true. I have a screen set for this - an environment window off to the side that contains hardware representations of my MIDI gear, so I can audition patch changes by bank & name. Works great, but I wouldn't mind an all-in-one solution for the "External Inst" plugin, so long as it incorporated full support for multiple banks, import of custom patch names, copy/paste, etc. as the Environment currently does.


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## IFM (Apr 5, 2021)

whinecellar said:


> Yes, true. I have a screen set for this - an environment window off to the side that contains hardware representations of my MIDI gear, so I can audition patch changes by bank & name. Works great, but I wouldn't mind an all-in-one solution for the "External Inst" plugin, so long as it incorporated full support for multiple banks, import of custom patch names, copy/paste, etc. as the Environment currently does.


That would be ideal for sure. The plugin doesn't require me to have objects set up beforehand. I will say this is one area where Cubase has Logic beat for sure. Just load a midi track, point it to the synth, turn Midi Thru off and go play said synth in record mode (I have a button set up to toggle MIDI thru).


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 5, 2021)

IFM said:


> For those that wander into this thread keep in mind that if you choose to use the External Synth plugin you lose the Patch/Bank options and have to program those in. If you want to use MIDI tracks instead you'll need to create the objects in the environment first.



You can combine them. Use an external midi track and cable it in the environment to whatever you want, but ultimately send it to a channel strip where external Inst plugin is hosted. The ext Inst plugin does a better job of managing latency issues. Only downside is you need an extra track for the audio if you plan to automate it


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