# Don't install El Capitan yet (Update: but they're working on it...)



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 5, 2015)

http://www.macnn.com/articles/15/10....abound.like.any.new.major.os.release.130699/

*Music mavens might have migration issues*

While we're not flooded with problems, Core Audio has changed a lot, and so has the kernel. So, devices like the M-Audio (now Avid) Fast Track C600 recording interface, and Avid Mbox 3 audio interface no longer function. Other older, but not strictly "legacy" audio interface external devices have stopped working under El Capitan with provided drivers -- some companies note that their devices are full Core Audio devices, and the solution is to totally remove the company-provided software!

Logic Pro X is seeing random audio cuts, as well as distortion under El Capitan for some users. Native Instruments is recommending that customers wait on the update, because of incompatibility issues with Komplete, Maschine, and Traktor. Developers of Cubase and Nuendo Steinberg are advising users to wait to upgrade. Finale 2014 won't be updated to support El Capitan until the middle of November. Apogee's Ensemble won't be updated for El Capitan at all, because the FireWire Core Audio driver has been depreciated. Many third-party plugins no longer function (such as iZotope's AU plugins), or have complex workarounds.

So, if you rely on OS X for audio production, you're best off to wait. In some music production cases, maybe never upgrading at all -- at least until you swap out your old Firewire-based stuff for Thunderbolt or USB 3.0 -- is the best choice.


----------



## synthpunk (Oct 5, 2015)

holly clusterf*** !

feel bad for anyone still using firewire for audio ?


----------



## Rex282 (Oct 5, 2015)

Yo no soy marinero,
Yo no soy marinero, 
*Soy capitán.
Soy capitán,*
*Soy capitán.*
Bamba, bamba,
bamba, bamba,
bamba, bamba,


----------



## chimuelo (Oct 5, 2015)

You're not supposed to like it.....
You're supposed to buy it.

Frank Nitti the Enforcer


----------



## ThomasL (Oct 5, 2015)

Not that I was about to update but that is a not-so-nice-no-no list. Thanks Nick!


----------



## KEnK (Oct 5, 2015)

So I read the whole article.
Went to the link in it called "five reasons to jump to El Capitan"
Amazing!
Such miniscule "reasons"!

No Apple fan here- but because I like Logic I'm still on a mac.
What a bad joke!

I didn't think it was possible for me to think less of them than I do-
but they work sooo hard to f**k with me.

Incredible
It seems like they don't want their computers to be pro machines.
They should merge w/ Walmart.
So what's a better name?
Wapple? or AppleMart?


----------



## dtonthept (Oct 5, 2015)

Apple are a brilliant company, the simple reality for us is that their focus is now lifestyle tech for the population at large, rather than robust tools for creative professionals.


----------



## KEnK (Oct 5, 2015)

dtonthept said:


> their focus is now lifestyle tech for the population at large


You mean like at Walmart?
Brilliant?
I guess so, but not for you and not for me. (as musicians)
I suppose the business model of premature obsolescence is good for them,
but not for the user who is supposed to throw everything out every 3 years
because there's some "new" non-pro Os or some-such.

iTunes Sucks, think about it.
Terrible for the music industry. (In this case, that's you & me)
Apple Sucks, but don't think about it,
Just keep buying their gadgets.


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 5, 2015)

...and yet my DAW computer is now 7 years old, a Mac Pro still running a system and a Cubase rev from 2011, and I am getting plenty of work done. It's upgraded with three internal SSD's, I have 18 gig of RAM but could go up to 64 I believe. I bought a MINI to accompany it that was an i7 4 core for less than a grand, added SSDs and maxed RAM for fairly cheap, VEP makes it all work. I'm probably going to run this system into the ground and upgrade when it dies.


----------



## KEnK (Oct 5, 2015)

Mine's from 2009.
But I've also had them crap out early.
Motherboard failure, Disk failure, some kind of Audio card failure.
Not to mention the nice undoings of things hardware and soft.

I only trust them to continue on the course they're on.
Planned obsolescence, downgrading the pro aspect of their stuff.
Continuing in the gadget biz.
That's why I don't feel at all confident about the so-called "cloud".
That will surely turn out poorly for a lot of people.

I'm not looking forward to moving over to Windows,
but this is certainly the last WappleMart™ product I buy.


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 5, 2015)

I've had Macs since 1989. The only major hardware issue I've ever had was a power supply in a Mac Plus. Over 9 or 10 computers, no motherboard failure, no audio card failure (?), really, no component failure at all. Disks fail, that's inevitable, and it won't change regardless of operating system. I've never been all that disturbed by "nice undoings of things hardware and soft" because I don't jump quickly from one gadget or system to another since the priorities for me are stability and pumping out work, and really-ADB had to go away as USB was the inevitable winner. If the same things is happening in Firewire, well, it is. It probably won't be necessary to go to El Capitan for a good while, and if necessary, there are Firewire to T-bolt converters.

All that said, it's pretty painfully obvious that they're not very interested in the creative professional anymore. We helped build them, but eventually became a niche player in the Apple universe.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 5, 2015)

To be clear, I'm not one of those people who thinks all they care about is iPhones. I've been working on Macs all day long for the past 30 years - the past seven on the same Mac - so that's not at all my point. My only reason for posting this is to warn people that El Capitan breaks a lot of the programs and hardware we use.

iOS 9 isn't a great idea either, by the way. Like El Capitan, it wants to be the clock master, and as far as I know every audio interface that runs on iOS uses the Apple Core Audio driver, not manufacturer-supplied ones.


----------



## Silence-is-Golden (Oct 6, 2015)

Does this mean throw away my apogee duett ? Or as nyc composer suggested does the thunderbolt- firewire solve the issue? If the changes are in apple's core audio maybe that might not even work.

I received an email from apogee that indeed ensemble en duett firewire were discontinued in support for el capitan. 
I will send them the question whether a tb-fw option works?
Let you all know for those interested


----------



## IFM (Oct 6, 2015)

Doesn't Microsoft brake a lot of things when the do a major software update? I have been working on Macs for years and only our 'house' mac was going to get the update for this very reason.
I use Focusrite Safire Pro 40 which is firewire and they report it compatible with El Capitan so no it doesn't break FW interfaces in general but Apogee needs to update their software. 
Chris


----------



## JohnG (Oct 6, 2015)

KEnK said:


> So what's a better name?
> Wapple? or AppleMart?



AppMart


----------



## KEnK (Oct 6, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> I've had Macs since 1989. The only major hardware issue I've ever had was a power supply in a Mac Plus. Over 9 or 10 computers, no motherboard failure, no audio card failure (?), really, no component failure at all...
> 
> All that said, it's pretty painfully obvious that they're not very interested in the creative professional anymore...


Well then maybe through the luck of the draw I've had more than my share of hardware issues.
Also recently had a power supply failure to add to my list.
The "audio card thing" was something weird on my wife's mac book.
It just stopped playing any sounds internally. The only option was to buy some peripheral gadget.

But yes- painfully obvious they're not in the pro market anymore-
The problem is people have made system wide commitments to their platform-
And their business model is to keep making things obsolete.

We all know this- I'll hopefully stop ranting now.
Not really anything we can do about a monopolist corporation anyway.

It just pisses me off (a lot)
k


----------



## KEnK (Oct 6, 2015)

JohnG said:


> AppMart


AppMart is good.
That's what I'll call them from now on.


----------



## JohnG (Oct 6, 2015)

@KEnK -- love Apple products, but strategically, their immense market value has zero to do with pro audio and everything to do with consumer / iPhone / i-whatever. Luckily, they have $200 billion in cash so they can afford to indulge themselves. Just hope they keep doing that (indulging).

Their products are intensely good, though, for how they are positioned. We have, collectively, six Apple laptops, six iPhones of various vintage, and three desktops. Not to mention iTunes purchases, router. No iWatch so far.

I was in NYC last week and bought a new laptop at the Apple store. It was totally jam-packed. Could hardly move around and they had security all over doing crowd control.

Upgraded just the laptop to the new OS overnight and it works fine for what it is. Won't be doing that with the DAW computer any time soon.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 6, 2015)

> But yes- painfully obvious they're not in the pro market anymore



People have been saying that for 20 years.

The latest Logic X update shows they're still serious about improving it. And while lots of things are broken, there are advances to the AU spec coming.

So I don't think that's it. To me this smells like a right hand/left hand issue at Apple.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 6, 2015)

I just got some cloak and dagger inside info that Apple is serious about solving some of these issues. They're working on it.


----------



## KEnK (Oct 6, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The latest Logic X update shows they're still serious about improving it


I dunno Nick, from what I've read here LX is more Garage Band Pro® than anything else.
There are so many things that other programs do that Logic still doesn't handle.
The Cubase art maps and folder bit for example-
and I don't think there's been a single thing done to the environment since AppMart™ bought it from Emagic.
It should be doing what Max does by now.
Anyway, you're a fan, I'm not.
I'm still on an AppMart™ using Logic, but as I've said,
AppMart™ has worked really hard to alienate me and they've succeeded.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Oct 6, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> People have been saying that for 20 years.
> 
> The latest Logic X update shows they're still serious about improving it. And while lots of things are broken, there are advances to the AU spec coming.
> 
> So I don't think that's it. To me this smells like a right hand/left hand issue at Apple.



The Logic developers, who while yes, they work for Apple, nonetheless live in Germany and are very different from the Cupertino folks. I think the Logic developers, still care about Logic and its pro users. Cupertino Apple? Not so much i fear.

After all, the sales of all the pro apps for a year represents a bad day for the iPhone.


----------



## kclements (Oct 6, 2015)

Here is my thoughts. Because Apple is so successful with the iOS devices, they can afford to lose money on other projects. If Apple wasn't serious about Logic, why would they purchase Camel Audio and (damn, can't think of the other recent purchase with automapper.....) and spend any time putting out updates?

Apple has never been shy about breaking old software/hardware to make room for new. Part of the transition to AU 3 is going to break things. That doesn't mean that everything will stop working, or won't be updated.

In my beta testing of El Cap, my original Duet FW works fine. Just as well as in Yosemite. Kontakt, not so much. Just because a dev doesn't support it, doesn't mean it will stop working. It might eventually - but not necessarily right away.

Also, just don't update yet if it doesn't work for you. Simple.


----------



## KEnK (Oct 6, 2015)

kclements said:


> ...If Apple wasn't serious about Logic, why would they purchase Camel Audio...


Sorry but from my perspective, AppMart™ has not been such a good caretaker of Logic.
When they bought it, it was the most sophisticated program out there.
Now that is not the case.
They spent a lot of years doing very little w/ a unique gem.


----------



## kclements (Oct 6, 2015)

Sorry, KEnK, but I disagree. LPX is much improved in my opinion. I can appreciate you don't think so, but I do.

Cheers
kc


----------



## samphony (Oct 6, 2015)

I can only say ze Germans care deeply about their Logic Pro! 
There are a lot of improvements in Logic Pro.


----------



## IFM (Oct 7, 2015)

I disagree that apple doesn't care about pro users...to a point. They care about pro video and photography. How much of the market is audio...very little. 
Any to the comment about Logic being Garage Band Pro...if you actually used it you would know different. But I can see this thread is bringing out some haters and was hoping it wouldn't turn into that.

So back on topic, perhaps we could have a what thread of what is/isn't compatible yet. Sweetwater's inSync is a good source too for getting compatibly info.


----------



## synthpunk (Oct 7, 2015)

Lets keep the thread on topic and about helping other musicians. If you need to hate or rant there are other places on the net you can do so or you can start your own thread. TX


----------



## KEnK (Oct 7, 2015)

Excuse me- are you a moderator?
Read Nick's 1st post.
Everything I said relates to it.


----------



## gsilbers (Oct 7, 2015)

I am getting mixed info for el capitan supporting firewire devices.
Core Audio Firewire Driver seems to have been discontinued.
anyone here with rme firwface800 and el capitan?


----------



## synthpunk (Oct 7, 2015)

Reports seem to be mixed in general regarding Firewire
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/does-el-capitan-drop-firewire-driver-support-25976/

RME Info
https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=22688



gsilbers said:


> I am getting mixed info for el capitan supporting firewire devices.
> Core Audio Firewire Driver seems to have been discontinued.
> anyone here with rme firwface800 and el capitan?


----------



## Felipe Opazo (Oct 7, 2015)

I installed El Capitan last night on my girlfriend's iMac, downloaded the most recent drivers for my interface (Mbox 2 Pro, Firewire) which were intended for Mavericks (but still worked under Yosemite) and it worked just fine. I guess my interface will live for at least one more year, even if there's no new drivers for El Capitan.


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 7, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> People have been saying that for 20 years.
> 
> The latest Logic X update shows they're still serious about improving it. And while lots of things are broken, there are advances to the AU spec coming.
> 
> ...



The Vader helmet is the long awaited Pro machine, and everything I read about it suggests it underwhelms for the price. The Mini I bought, 4 core at 2.6ghz, makes a perfect slave except for the RAM limitation (16 Gig), but they DOWNGRADED the Mini line. The iMac is ok but many don't want that one piece solution and would like more expandability. People on this forum are going backwards and buying older 12 core towers to meet their professional needs. This doesn't sound like a company focused on creatives in any serious way.

I dunno. Seems to me they have bigger fish to fry, and the desktop thing may be going away for all but enterprise and creatives, and even enterprise might be teetering.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 7, 2015)

Even I of all people predicted the ultimate demise of desktop machines. They're still the most powerful ones for now, but how many more years will it be necessary to have a large case? What is going to stay as big as it is?

kEnK, what you're saying about Logic X being Garage Band Pro® - never mind that Garage Band is great! - makes no sense to me... nor, I'd imagine, to anyone who uses it.

They've improved the program a whole lot. Never mind literally hundreds of small things, they streamlined the main parts of the interface, added Drummer, now Camel, there are new plug-ins, Logic Remote is fabulous... it goes on and on.

None of that is trivial.


----------



## kclements (Oct 7, 2015)

The biggest thing for me is Sibelius 6 doesn't work in El Cap. Since I really dislike what Avid have done to Sibelius, I won't be upgrading. So, I'm stuck on Yosemite for now.

EDIT: apparently, Sibelius 6 does work in the final GM beta. Just tried it again and it is working

But still, hopefully the guys at Steinberg will release their product soon.

Cheers
kc


----------



## kclements (Oct 7, 2015)

I just booted into the El Cap GM beta. Haven't updated to the release version yet. But I can confirm that the original Apogee Duet Firewire interface is working just fine. I was able to record tracks into Logic, listen via the Duet, and change all the setting via the control panel that is accessible within Logic 10.2 My apogee Driver is version 2.10.2


----------



## kclements (Oct 7, 2015)

Ok, so this is weird. Not exactly sure what I did, but Logic 10.2 is working with Kontakt - and it is behaving just like Yosemite. I didn't do anything special. Just booted into my El Cap Partition and started Logic, and without a fuss, everything is as it should be. Kontakt is fine, it didn't have to reevaluate any of the AUs it just works. Very strange.

I truly didn't do anything to make this happen. The only thing I can think of is 10.2 is located on a different partition than my OS drive. So, I have my main hard drive in my iMac partitioned into 2 drive. One has the OS 10.11, the other has OS 10.10. I used Superduper to create a sandbox. So Logic 10.2 is on the drive with OS 10.10.5 and I booted from the partition with 10.11.

See the screenshot. This is cool. Everything is working! Anyone else have any luck with this?


----------



## samphony (Oct 7, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> The Vader helmet is the long awaited Pro machine, and everything I read about it suggests it underwhelms for the price. The Mini I bought, 4 core at 2.6ghz, makes a perfect slave except for the RAM limitation (16 Gig), but they DOWNGRADED the Mini line. The iMac is ok but many don't want that one piece solution and would like more expandability. People on this forum are going backwards and buying older 12 core towers to meet their professional needs. This doesn't sound like a company focused on creatives in any serious way.
> 
> I dunno. Seems to me they have bigger fish to fry, and the desktop thing may be going away for all but enterprise and creatives, and even enterprise might be teetering.


I am using the Death Star Core since mid 2014 without any issue and it's running great with ssds 40" 4k and regular displays. I couldn't be happier the only thing I wish for in the future of composing in regards to handling huge sessions would be instant loading times. I'm talking about 2-8sec. Not 20-90sec 

If you are a cubase user you can always switch to PC, can you?


----------



## Marius Masalar (Oct 7, 2015)

kclements said:


> Ok, so this is weird. Not exactly sure what I did, but Logic 10.2 is working with Kontakt - and it is behaving just like Yosemite. I didn't do anything special. Just booted into my El Cap Partition and started Logic, and without a fuss, everything is as it should be. Kontakt is fine, it didn't have to reevaluate any of the AUs it just works. Very strange.
> 
> I truly didn't do anything to make this happen. The only thing I can think of is 10.2 is located on a different partition than my OS drive. So, I have my main hard drive in my iMac partitioned into 2 drive. One has the OS 10.11, the other has OS 10.10. I used Superduper to create a sandbox. So Logic 10.2 is on the drive with OS 10.10.5 and I booted from the partition with 10.11.
> 
> See the screenshot. This is cool. Everything is working! Anyone else have any luck with this?


Yeah, this sound about right—the plugin issues mostly arise if you're upgrading in place and Logic has to re-scan its plugins. If it can use the original AU cache (which wasn't affected in your case since the Logic drive was untouched) then there's no issue.

Most of the current workarounds involve bringing the old AU 2 validation tool back from a previous OS X because the V3 one doesn't like current plugin versions, but if the cache remains intact then there's no need to re-scan, so there's no problem.


----------



## gsilbers (Oct 7, 2015)

has anyone tried opening a multi timbral plugin with more than 16 channels in logic?


----------



## chimuelo (Oct 8, 2015)

Just a thought, but wasn't Bill Gates of Micro$oft the man who prevented Crapple from disolution?

All Roads Lead To Rome.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Oct 8, 2015)

Seriously, Crapple, Chim? We have better PCs because competition from Apple forced people to make them. We have better Android phones because competition from Apple forced people to make them.We are now getting better Windows based tablets because competition from Apple forced people to make them.

Apple is a great company but clearly their target market went from creatives to Everyman and when you want to sell to Everyman, especially at a higher price, your emphasis with both hardware and software has to be on ease of use, perceived coolness, and aesthetic qualities, not raw power and utility, which is what creatives need. 

It is not a bad thing for a corporation to make money like Apple (and as you call it Micro$oft.) I don't blame them for this. But it does mean that Apple is less concerned about guys like me. The Logic developers "think different" though abd try to adhere to what Apple tells them they want and their desire to continue to make Logic Pro better for guys like me. They are doing a good job balancing the two as Logic Pro X can indeed essentially be GarageBand Pro if you turn off the advanced features but be Logic Pro when you turn them on. Again, not a bad thing. Since a lot of you guys are comic book fans, think Clark Kent going into the phone booth to become Superman 

And yes, Bill Gates saved Apple when it was at a low point, and made a pot of money doing so, not to mention forestalling anti-trust issues.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 12, 2015)

I'm not sure he actually saved the company, but he did invest in it and agree to continue developing Office for Mac.

Now, the latest Office (2011), or at least the latest Word, is a load of crap compared to previous versions, but that's another story.


----------



## amsams (Oct 12, 2015)

Any updates on this? From NI or the AU plugin authorization issue. I'm nowhere near close to installing the update, but just curious if this is a days, weeks or months type of thing.


----------



## kclements (Oct 13, 2015)

I've heard that the latest beta fixes the problem. But I haven't tested it yet. Been too busy with other stuff. I'm sure it won't be too much longer. 

Cheers
kc


----------



## synthpunk (Oct 13, 2015)

El Capitan, bugs, bugs, and more bugs
http://www.zdnet.com/article/os-x-10-11-el-capitan-bugs-bugs-and-more-bugs/#ftag=YHFb1d24ec


----------



## jacobthestupendous (Oct 20, 2015)

Any more news on this front?


----------



## Marius Masalar (Oct 20, 2015)

I upgraded my studio machine this week, running the latest public beta. No tricks or workarounds, just a straight upgrade.

Logic re-scanned my plugins and all of them validated and work fine with the exception of the Arturia V-Collection and the individual Ozone modules, but I use Ozone as a standalone app so I wasn't too bothered. Audio interface (Octa-Capture), MIDI keyboard (Panorama P6), and everything else working as expected. Haven't seen any other bugs or issues.


----------

