# BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story and Some Sincere Resolutions



## synergy543 (Mar 12, 2006)

*EDIT Since I first wrote this, there have been many e-mails exchanged and in this thread there are many gestures and sincere apologies attempting to seek resolution. So although its not a completely happy ending (many VI members are still banned and there are some policy differences that probably will not be completely resolved), there have been many big and honorable steps taken to clearing this up. It now appears the the remaining issues are beyond the control of BelaD and therefore I feel its wrong to hold them fully accountable even though they may have some influence as advertisers and moderators. So armed with this knowledge, here are the accounts and how this transpires into as ammicable resolution as I think we can hope for. Well, honestly its a lot more that I expected and I tip my hat to Francis for doing the right thing and what I believe is in his power to resolve this. And here is how it all transpired....*

I was looking forward to finally buying BelaD Giovani and had already transferred $300 to my Paypal account for this purpose. Then the recent unfortunate hurtful comments directed at Francis *by a single individual * have resulted in a spate of negative reactions on NS *against all VI members* calling it a "a cesspool lead by a gang of euro trash thugs!" I was hoping this would disappear quickly and therefore stayed out of the fray. I was torn, as I did have sympathy and wanted to send my condolences to Francis but each time I kept reading accusatory and vindictive posts agaisnt all VI members. Some of the racial slurs and bigotry were really shocking to me. Do I want to support this?

Still hoping this was only a momentary lapse of judgement or bad medication I waited a few more days with $300 ready to spend towards Giovani. The racial slurs continued to pour out and anger that should have been directed towards "one individual" was continuously directed at an entire group of people on a whole forum. An NS moderator went as far as advising its members against associating with VI and to "get out of there". False accusations were indiscriminately being made towards VI members and the owner of VI. These are people who had nothing to do with the incident other than merely through their association of being members of the same forum that allows free speech. That's like condemning all black men because one black man committed a crime, or all readers of the NY Times because of a letter from one reader. They tried to play the racial slurs down as "being a joke" (sadly in the same poor taste as the original hurtful comment). I'm truly shocked that NS tolerates this bigotry and hatred and slander. Many of the comments were later deleted or "cleaned" up and the thread was then closed looking nice and sweet.Then, I discover that Craig Sharmat got banned, slandered and falsely accused for no apparent reason.

Well, after a long and hard decision I've decided I can't spend my $300 in good conscious that will support the hatred and bigotry that I've seen. *So instead of NS helping to sell samples, in this case it has specifically cost BelaD $300.* Unless there are some sincere apologies or someone can convince me that I have the wrong impression, I'm taking my money elsewhere as the "higher ground" is more important to me. I hope others too might consider how they wish to vote with their dollars. Maybe there are many others with the same ethical dilemma?

In spite of all of this, I do feel sympathy towards what happened to Francis yet the repeated condemnation and false accusations and censorship towards others is *a completely unjustified and unfair reaction directed at the wrong people. Bigotry, Hatred and Unfair Discrimination towards an entire group of individuals should not be tolerated and rewarded.*

*It cost BelaD $300....and counting.*


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## Evan Gamble (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story*

wise choice greg


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## choc0thrax (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story*

Yes I too was waiting to buy Giovani and that other stuff but was put off by all this rude behavior. I was so upset that I cancelled a planned trip to africa to help build wells and housing there.


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## Chrislight (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story*

I don't believe you will be alone in your decision, although others may not come out and publically state theirs. Many people would never choose to purchase a product from someone who makes such unfortunate statements. That is why an astute business person will ALWAYS be aware of what they say and how it can affect their business.


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## synergy543 (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story*



Chrislight @ Sun Mar 12 said:


> I don't believe you will be alone in your decision, although others may not come out and publically state theirs.


Chris, I posted in sincerity because I have a "very remote hope" that my message might have a postive impact and receive a sincere reply. I would like to think it still possible that apologies can be made and misunderstandings cleared up. I'm probably naive. However, if the bigotry and false accusations stand uncorrected, then we know the truth and I've made the right decision.

I would like Frank to know why I decided not to buy Giovani. He "knows" I buy my software as I have bought just about every one of of BelaD's other products. 

However, *bigotry and false accusations are not an option.*


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## Doug Wellington (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story (Subtitle: Am I making a fool of myself?)*

As y'all can see from my profile, I've only been here a couple days, and I haven't posted much yet, but I've been lurking on various lists and forums for a long time and I've seen my share of trolls, flame wars, etc, etc. (Stefan, what was the name of that troll on the Paris list? Oh yeah, Bunuel!) What's happened here in the last couple days doesn't really seem to be anything new in Internet-land.

[SOAPBOX]
I *DID* buy Giovani and LD during this sale, and I've contributed to some of the threads at NSS about this whole situation, in defense of some, but *not all*, aspects of the whole situation. It's obvious to me that there has been some animosity for a long time and it really came to a head in the last couple days. But, I'm not going to hold Bela D responsible for EVERYTHING that goes on at NSS. It's obvious that Francis was upset and I think if he's got a beef with any one person, he should deal with that person and not involve anyone else. It's a little late for that, but I personally don't want to keep beating that horse...

But, I think that was only a small part of the whole feud between the two sites. I mean, ok, it was sort of funny when someone dug up that old thread complimenting Sharmy and then used it as a leaping off point to talk about him being banned, and I laughed when, right as I was reading, the new posts got deleted and the thread locked. But, tell me something, was that really the "adult" thing to do? (On either side?)

I remember when the Soundsonline forums started, and I remember people saying how bad it was that Doug and Nick were banned at NSS, how unfair, blah blah blah, but here we are a while later and I don't see that all that much has changed, except now, I go to three forums instead of one. Yeah, I know NSS bans people, yeah, I know they have a script that won't let you post certain things, yeah, yeah yeah...

I have Spectrasonics tools, I have Garritan tools, I have Bela D tools. As long as those guys post at NSS, I hope to stay a member there. I have East West tools, and as long as Doug and Nick and company have the Soundsonline forums, I hope to be a member there as well. I just signed up for EIS, so I certainly hope to stick around here. I hope we can all concentrate on what each particular forum is good for and ignore the rest.
[/SOAPBOX]

I've seen a lot of web sites, email lists and forums come and go in the almost 20 years I've been on the Internet, and I've found that things take care of themselves whether we complain about them or not. Is it a good thing to incite people to not buy from Bela D? Will that sooth the feathers and reduce the animosity between the forums? Will that help Francis to be a better business man?

(If it matters, I don't personally know any of the people involved, whether it's here or at NSS. I've had a couple PMs with Francis while buying his libraries and expressing my concern for his father, but that's about it.)


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## synergy543 (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story*

Doug, I own products from all the respective parties and I have enjoyed participating on all the forums too. However, this is an issue of principle that bothers me deeply enough that I am choosing to speak out rather than be silent. I feel no need to tolerate bigotry, false accusations and slanderous remarks. I have no need for that. If you feel that what they have is so important for you and you're willing to kiss-ass to that type of behaviour then its your choice. I'm not. And I prefer to speak with my pocket book as well as my words.


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## Doug Wellington (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story*

I know people say inflamatory things on forums that they might not say face to face and I know it's easy to escalate things far faster on the internet than in real life, so if being a moderator, referee, mediator, go-between or whatever else I try to be makes me a kiss-ass, so be it!

:mrgreen:


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## sbkp (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story (Subtitle: Am I making a fool of myself?)*



Doug Wellington @ Sun Mar 12 said:


> I just signed up for EIS



Best news I've read all day. Welcome to the fold. Who's your teacher?

- Stefan


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## Bela D Media (Mar 12, 2006)

Deleted


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## Doug Wellington (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story (Subtitle: Am I making a fool of myself?)*



sbkp @ Sun Mar 12 said:


> Best news I've read all day. Welcome to the fold. Who's your teacher?


I just sent in the money for the first books and four lessons today. I don't know if I've been assigned a teacher. I can't wait though - I've tried going to college (yeah, me, the 47 year old, sitting in freshman composition...!) but what with the family, job, etc (and who could forget soccer!) I need something that I can do on my own...


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## Doug Wellington (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story*



Bela D Media @ Sun Mar 12 said:


> In hopes for all to move on, I offer a sincere apology to the VI community as a whole for my comment.


I think that took a lot of guts Francis...


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## sbkp (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story (Subtitle: Am I making a fool of myself?)*



Doug Wellington @ Sun Mar 12 said:


> sbkp @ Sun Mar 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Best news I've read all day. Welcome to the fold. Who's your teacher?
> ...



Well, who'd you send your money to. That would be the first clue! 

It seems like most around here have either Sharmy or David Blumberg. I have David as my teacher.

- Stefan


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## synergy543 (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story and Possible Happy Ending....*

Francis,

It is very honorable of you to make such a public gesture and apology. I can understand your emotions over this issue if I were to be in your situation. And there are scars on both sides in ways I think I understand but can't explain. Nevertheless, this is a grand and sincere gesture on your part and I urge others to take this as an opportunity to bring our commuinties a little bit closer. We all have better things to do than feuding with each other.

I would also like to implore members of this forum to consider if there is a way we can honor Francis's request for personal privacy and still keep the forum free and open? Is there a good solution anyone has? I know if I were in Francis's shoes I wouldn't be very pleased to have such a hurtful comment about my family. Personally I'm very torn over this as I believe its important that we can have freedom without censorship and be able to even jest and poke fun at each other. However, the fun stops when someone gets hurt. And that for me seems to be a good place to draw the line. If someone feels personally hurt and requests a post about them be removed, can't we honor this without giving up our freedom? Maybe take it off the public forum? Maybe there is a possible way to have it both ways? I don't know. However, I can understand the dilemma here and clearly Frank is very hurt even more so than the way many feel hurt being indiscriminately banned.

Well, I can't fix the WHOLE WORLD in one day, but damm I'm sure glad my efforts feel like they are mending a few fences and making a little bit of difference. Thank you for you sincere reply Francis and I hope we can continue in this direction to make the whole situation better.

Sincerely,

Gregory D. Moore




Bela D Media @ Sun Mar 12 said:


> OK. This is because of the PM's Gregory and I just shared. He will attest to the fact that it has nothing to do with losing a sale. He did shed some light for me and put things in a way that I could relate to.
> 
> I will be the professional that continues to grow my company in a very short amount of time.
> 
> ...


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## Thonex (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story*



Wellington @ Sun Mar 12 said:


> Bela D Media @ Sun Mar 12 said:
> 
> 
> > In hopes for all to move on, I offer a sincere apology to the VI community as a whole for my comment.
> ...



Not guts Doug.... Responsability. Francis' apology was the responsable and right thing to do in light of some of the things he said. Gregory's PMs obviously opened Francis' eyes, but I'd like to believe that Francis felt contrite enough to come here and do the right thing -- very much appreciated.

I just wish he would not have excluded Frederick from his appology. Frederick is a stand-up guy and in the end, banning and censoring would have not resulted in this attempt to heal some wounds.

Cheers,

T


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## Frederick Russ (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story and Possible Happy Ending..*

Regardless of one's ability to forgive or not, do appreciate Francis' gesture of owning up to his responsibility which is the right thing to do. 

Frank, if your brand of forgiveness requires me to turn my back on our community, upon the promises I made to that community, turn my back away from the freedoms we enjoy here at VI by first deleting posts and then censoring people and ideas you find unacceptable in the same cold tradition which has become the norm at NS in order to be "worthy" of your apology then I say: save your apology instead for the many talented composers who have been banned from NS. Besides the thread in question was here temporarily - as promised - and has been locked hours ago and will be removed to a moderated area in due time - as promised.

I supposed you didn't notice that I wished your father well. No matter. I'm glad you had your say - and yes, I acknowledge that you are human and allowed the same dignities to express yourself freely - as do all our members here.

Peace,


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## synergy543 (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story and Possible Happy Ending..*

Hi Frederick,

I mentioned to Frank that I thought I recalled seeing that but I couldn't find a link quickly during our disussion. *The thread is now locked locked* but Frederick's message is on page 5 around the middle: 



Frederick Russ said:


> Best wishes to Frank regarding his father and hopes for a speedy recovery.



Sorry I couldn't point to this earlier as I think possibly Fracis didn't see this.


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## Craig Sharmat (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story (Subtitle: Am I making a fool of myself?)*

First I commend Francis on your post. I do not believe my banning at NS was your doing.



sbkp @ Sun Mar 12 said:


> Doug Wellington @ Sun Mar 12 said:
> 
> 
> > sbkp @ Sun Mar 12 said:
> ...



I have funneled all students through David Blumberg. I really only have one full time student and one part time. I have a fairly busy composing schedule so I do not have much time to teach. I push the course because I believe it to be a worthwhile system. David Alfonso and Glenn Jordan I belive have picked up most of the other students.


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## TARI (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story and Possible Happy Ending..*

Fredrick,
First, I personally would like to see some 'other' people 'here' stand up and offer an apology to Bela D as well but I know that will not happen.

Second, I think he will not extend the apology to you for not removing one persons comments that were hurtful, insensitive and without need or merit. You may have locked or whatever but you should not allow such things to be said on such a subject matter. You are an administrator... you do have some responsibilities of your own, no?

Last, why is this all about what Francis said out of anger and not even a tiny bit about what was said to cause the anger? Please don't say it is because he (Francis) cannot handle criticism - this person did not criticize a product, he poked fun about a very sad event and how Francis reached out to some pals. Even VI people were upset about this one post in the thread and thought it was uncool.


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## Evan Gamble (Mar 13, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story and Possible Happy Ending..*

Posts are not edited or deleted here-NO MATTER what.

I stand by Fred, he handled his responsibility to perfection if you ask me-if us members want to make an ass of ourselves, than so be it!


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## midphase (Mar 13, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story and Possible Happy Ending..*

I'd like to put something in prespective here...

This is the internet....i.e. this is not the real world. I don't make friends on the net and I don't make enemies, there is no "real" interaction, there is no "real" discussion, it's all a bunch of one way posts. There is no emotion in the posts, no tone, no inflection, and no...the smilies are no sobstitute for those things. 

What I'm trying to get to is that you can't take things too seriously, don't get all aggravated about stuff that you read....it's just stuff and ultimately it doesn't affect my real life anymore or less than seeing New York being ditched by Flavor Flave does.

Lastly...I really don't give a crap if Francis is a wacko, or if Gary is a controlling freak...ultimately if their products are good then I'll buy them, if they are bad I won't. If I allow my personal feelings towards the developers to dictate whether or not I should buy their products or not, I might be making a small dent in their bottom line....but I'm really just hurting myself by negating myself some really good tools for me to make music (and money) with.

That's all....just trying to keep it real yo!

Flaaaavooor Flaaaaave!!!


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## synergy543 (Mar 13, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story and Possible Happy Ending..*



TARI @ Sun Mar 12 said:


> Last, why is this all about what Francis said out of anger and not even a tiny bit about what was said to cause the anger? Please do say its because he (Francis) cannot handle criticism - this person did not criticize a product, he poked fun about a very sad event and how Francis reached out to some pals. Even VI people were upset about this one post in the thread and thought it was uncool.


Hi Tari,

Let me try and address this last question as I started this post. Clearly the anger was caused by Simon's childish and thoughtless post. And many people on VI jumped on him for this. There is a history of issues between them and I can't begin to pretend I understand as I have nothing to do with this and its none of my business. It became my business when every VI member was lumped together with Simon as if we were all saying that. And I think the number of people who spoke out against Simon's commment make it clear that many here had concern and felt this was extremely calous and they said so. So, I'm the one that made this thread about the reactive effects that have become very divisive. I wrote it in hopes to mend some of the differences and create some semblence of understanding.

I'm am anything but a facilitator! I have no experience with these sorts of things and I'm not very good at it. But somehow given my feeling about the sitution, this is where I landed. So maybe there was a better way to present it. I'm sure there was. I made some false steps in the process and made someone else angry where I didn't intend to. I can't please everyone and I can't solve all the problems. I just did the best I could and I hope it has some positive effect.

Maybe you too can help? Its so easy for us to fingerpoint and feud and yet so hard to resolve. I think there has been a lot of apologies given and accepted from both sides and we should continue to try to move forward in that direction. 

btw, we're trying to repair the Universe here you know?

And lets hear some more of your music with Giovani OK?


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## TARI (Mar 13, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story and Possible Happy Ending..*

Gregory,

You said,"I would also like to implore members of this forum to consider if there is a way we can honor Francis's request for personal privacy" and I could not agree with you more. I think it takes a very kind person to make such a request in favor of someone. Well said. You also say, " I think there has been a lot of apologies given and accepted from both sides:.... I am sorry but, show me one post where the words, "Sorry Francis or Sorry Bela D" have ever been uttered here. This is the part of the problem in my opinion and where I think some lack the professionalism they accuse Francis of not having. Some here at VI just do not know when to stop. One member even posted that he enjoys getting up Francis's blood to see the reaction. How professional is that?

Anyway, I have some work to get done.


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## synergy543 (Mar 13, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story and Possible Happy Ending..*

Hey Tari, there are different ettiquites on the various forums. C' la vie. Its the spice of the virtual life.

We're not here to "fix" the universe, just repair it. A little patch will have to do for now I guess. Maybe it'll keep the air in and we can ride on it for a while? Its all virutal anywho!

See ya,

Greg


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## lux (Mar 13, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story and Possible Happy Ending..*



TARI @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> Fredrick,
> First, I personally would like to see some 'other' people 'here' stand up and offer an apology to Bela D as well but I know that will not happen.
> 
> Second, I think he will not extend the apology to you for not removing one persons comments that were hurtful, insensitive and without need or merit. You may have locked or whatever but you should not allow such things to be said on such a subject matter. You are an administrator... you do have some responsibilities of your own, no?



No, Tari, you are clearly too used to NS way of acting. Simon's comment should really be avoided, but Fred did the right thing considering the kind of words used in the post. Vi members, me included, and a censored competitor of BelaD (Alex...yes it was at first censored, this is the truth) did their part to express their disappointment. 

Remember boy: if you begin to remove posts you will sooner or later remove all. And this is quite unacceptable.

Also when Belardino did chime in with the cesspool thing he had the chance to express Simon all the disappointment, he was not alone, and he was NOT removed.

I have been banned for way less, you obviously dont follow things too much at NS.

All parts were able to talk. I still liked to see the apology to Frederick.

we all have some work to get done.

Luca


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## Aaron Dirk (Mar 13, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story and Possible Happy Ending..*

This is truly sad.... The whole incident is sad.

I may be wrong with this, but this reads to me as a rally to boycott Bela D Media.
This may be news to some, but Bela D Media consist of more than one person. Why is it "I" have to be an innocent victim? Why does Alan have to be too? I didn't take part in none of this, neither did Alan. It was bad enough for Francis. Why should all of us at Bela D Media be dragged down because some have issues with Francis or NS(Man! come on! We don't own/run NS! I read it here first hand that Gary does :wink: ) 

It's bad enough that Fred has to be a victim in this as well. I think Fred is a great guy, I've enjoyed discussions with him and several of his pieces he's sent me. This place used to be my stomping ground, In fact I created Lyrical Distortion while chilling here. I hold no loyalty to either forums, I have many friends here, I have many friends there. I'm not willing to die for neither place as doing so is just plain silly. I rarely post at either places as I'm just too busy with my projects.

I'm sorry to see Craig paid a price too, but seriously, he stopped contributing over there quit some time ago. I'm sure Craig didn't shed a tear or will lose sleep over this. I'm sure Craig doesn't feel Alan should be punished in all this either. Craig is still here for all to enjoy.

Giovani is a great product, I throughly enjoy using it. It would make a great addition to anyones arsenal, as well as any of our fine libraries. Saying you can't buy Bela D Media products in good conscience is just plain nonsense....

Are we Composers or Soap Opera actors?



Anyway, I discussed this with Francis. I was hoping I wouldn't have to publicly say something in regards. I'd prefer to just see it go away, but I see it's still dragging on and more are falling victims to it. So can we please just bring it to an end and move on to more important stuff.... like composing, or sample libraries? ....it is why we're here isn't it?



Best regards,
Aaron Dirk




[schild=11 fontcolor=000000 shadowcolor=FFFFFF shieldshadow=0]Bela D Media RULES! \m/O\m/[/schild]


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## synergy543 (Mar 13, 2006)

Aaron Dirk @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> This is truly sad.... The whole incident is sad.
> 
> I may be wrong with this, but this reads to me as a rally to boycott Bela D Media.


Hi Aaron,

I think most people will make their own choice about what they want to do but clearly some of the actions NS has taken on your behalf are not helping developers such as you guys look too good to customers such as myself. We are all people and when we see our friends get the axe for no apparent reason its rather bothersome. So maybe NS could make some gestures here too? Clearly just as customers can vote with their dollars, so can developers also have a say in business decisions than directly affect them. So please consider talking with them. If their actions reflect badlly upon you, you might want to have a word with them.



Aaron Dirk @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> IThis may be news to some, but Bela D Media consist of more than one person. Why is it "I" have to be an innocent victim? Why does Alan have to be too? I didn't take part in none of this, neither did Alan. It was bad enough for Francis. Why should all of us at Bela D Media be dragged down because some have issues with Francis or NS(Man! come on! We don't own/run NS! I read it here first hand that Gary does :wink: )


Agreed. And likewise, why should VI members fall victim with bans from NS for something that Simon said? (there's a "Simon Says" joke in there somewhere but this might not be the time....)



Aaron Dirk @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> It's bad enough that Fred has to be a victim in this as well. I think Fred is a great guy, I've enjoyed discussions with him and several of his pieces he's sent me. This place used to be my stomping ground, In fact I created Lyrical Distortion while chilling here. I hold no loyalty to either forums, I have many friends here, I have many friends there. I'm not willing to die for neither place as doing so is just plain silly. I rarely post at either places as I'm just too busy with my projects.


Exactly. Ditto. I concur.



Aaron Dirk @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> I'm sorry to see Craig paid a price too, but seriously, he stopped contributing over there quit some time ago. I'm sure Craig didn't shed a tear or will lose sleep over this. I'm sure Craig doesn't feel Alan should be punished in all this either. Craig is still here for all to enjoy.


I'm sorry to see both Craig and Fred continue to be victims when they've both made as sincere gestures as possible without comproming their philosophical beliefs. Read their posts above. I think everyone is trying to reach out but there are differences and we must accept each others differences. Maybe BelaD can get NS to lightup against the VI persecutions? Maybe we all can learn to accept each other's differences and co-exist happily? 



Aaron Dirk @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> Giovani is a great product, I throughly enjoy using it. It would make a great addition to anyones arsenal, as well as any of our fine libraries. Saying you can't buy Bela D Media products in good conscience is just plain nonsense....


Sure, it was just one person's concern and nothing more. However, I'm sure that I was just speaking what many were thinking. That's what this board is about as you know. And I think it resulted in some postive effects. So, are there are further steps towards resolution that could be taken? Yes, I think so. I think maybe NS in the process of "looking out" for BelaD certainly played a part. Maybe they're looking out a little too much?

It was very honorable of Francis to to make his apology and others quickly came in with their gestures but the issue of VI members being indiscriminately banned has not been resolved. Maybe some of the actions taken against VI members in BelaD's behalf weren't by BelaD but were done by NS?

In that case, then my concerns are unwarranted as Francis, Craig and Frederick have all done the gentlemanly thing and stepped forward. So then this makes NS the big bad wolf that is persecuting us all? If so, then maybe we all have a responsibility to try and influence some change in this respect.



Aaron Dirk @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> Are we Composers or Soap Opera actors?


Well, this has become a quite the Soap Opera hasn't it? - "Desperate Composers" With all the shady characters running on side threads and the dirty laundry being tossed around like a hot potato we have quite the show! We might be able to sell it.....but who owns the rights? And do we have to change the characters names to protect the guilty or the innocent? Find out next week....



Aaron Dirk @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> Anyway, I discussed this with Francis. I was hoping I wouldn't have to publicly say something in regards. I'd prefer to just see it go away, but I see it's still dragging on and more are falling victims to it. So can we please just bring it to an end and move on to more important stuff.... like composing, or sample libraries? ....it is why we're here isn't it?



Actually, I think its not "dragging on" but the thread has evolved and the various parties have stepped forward to seek resolution. And this clear to all who read it. But its not going to disappear right out of thin air as threads do on other boards - unless the list owner here decides to do so that's not how things generally work around here. So, I have changed to title to reflect the new situation and posted an EDIT commentary at the beginning to explain the resolutions that have taken place. So I hope that my gesture in this regard is also recognized. If all this appears to be the case then I may consider buying Giovani once again.

Sincerely,

Gregory D. Moore


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## Doug Wellington (Mar 13, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story*



Thonex @ Sun Mar 12 said:


> Wellington @ Sun Mar 12 said:
> 
> 
> > I think that took a lot of guts Francis...
> ...


Takes a lot of guts sometimes to live up to your responsibilities, no?


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## Doug Wellington (Mar 13, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story (Subtitle: Am I making a fool of myself?)*



sbkp @ Sun Mar 12 said:


> Well, who'd you send your money to. That would be the first clue!


I originally contacted Craig and he referred me to David. I didn't know whether David would be my teacher or if he would assign me to a different one, but it sounds like he'll be my teacher.  Wish I could have afforded to buy all the cds along with the books and lessons, but what with my LPC and Bela D purchases lately, I'm runnin' low...


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## Hermitage59 (Mar 13, 2006)

Good to see some sense prevailing at last, and in the interests of continuing in that vein, if anything i wrote offended, you have my apologies too.
Frank's passionate nature shouldn't be construed negatively IMO, as it is that passion that has driven him and the team at BelaD to creat some wonderful tools for us to use. I personally get on with Frank, Alan , and Aaron, (a fellow Rach fan), and appreciate their efforts to chase a standard of excellence that is already great, that rises all the time.

In all that's been written, and i'm still uncertain why this thread 'needed' to be started in the first place with the pontification of cheque book blackmail, some good seems to have come from it. When all the furore raged, and more than one were kicking Frank while he was down, i noticed he got nailed with a a wider long term issue and that is the relationship between many of you and NS. I can't see this as Frank's doing, although many of you have the perception and assumption he has been involved, and i think it's unfair to assume as such.

And sadly, i notice even now, that it is Frank who has posted a public apology, and PUBLICLY tried to ease tensions, and it is Aaron who has PUBLICLY tried to calm things down and state his case as a member of the BelaD team who are in business to give us great tools.
And it is the few members here in VI who acknowledge that apology as if it is deserved from a one way perspective, and they have a right to that apology simply for being members of this forum.
Yet, posted here, i see no PUBLIC apology from the few to Frank, and the disgraceful treatment he got at a time when he had to deal with a number of things at once, including considerable family pressures. I think it would go a long towards putting this further behind, if some of you apologised here, PUBLICLY, for putting the boot in out of spite.

It seems to be overwhelmingly true that there issues with NS for many of you. I don't know Mark, or Papa, at all, having never corresponded with them, as i don't know Frederick, or Craig, or most of the rest of you. But so far, Frank's done the honourable and decent thing, and there's nothing going back in return, only puffing up chests, and defending VI because a few users decide they're the 'Victims' in this. Parties on both sides have been responsible for the fuss, and members of both forum contributed.

Frank's proved himself to be a real man, stepped forward and offered the hand of friendship and apology in an attempt to resolve any animosities. I admire and respect someone who can do that. 

Gregory Moore, there's been several attempts in the thread from others to lay this to rest. So far you've extrapolated and reasoned to prevent that, as your perception of a perceived slight continues, and i fear sadly, you're getting some small satisfaction from discomfort or humiliation you may percieve Frank's going through. 

What you do is your choice, and i won't be losing any sleep if you decide not to partake in intelligent discussion with me or others in the future who don't share your point of view. But why don't YOU do the right thing, scrap that nonsense you wrote in the first post, and offer the PUBLIC hand of apology to Frank, in the interests of fair play? Your first post doesn't read as an expression of affront over some personal angst. It reads as a condemation on your part of BelaD the company, and the products it produces. Frank's perceived behaviour is just an excuse.

Whatever your issues with the decision over at NS, it's not Frank's fault, and i wish you'd accept that, and not keep trying to use him and BelaD as the excuse to rant about NS, or it's policies. Because as it continues further, i think a lot of people are going to begin to get the impression that there IS a vendetta, and that won't look good for you or VI in general. 

I sincerely wish the members of this forum success in the future, and have no issue with any of you, but i suspect this recent spat has gone a long way towards damaging or affecting possible friendships or professional associations between some. I find that saddening. Personally, it's the same for me, as i note people i thought were fairly decent, putting the boot into someone else because it's fun, and showing another side of their character. It's certainly opened my eyes.

So what about it Gregory? Frank was man enough to apologise publicly.


Finally, I don't understand the obsession with BelaD, Garritan, VSL, EW, Spectrasonics, Sonic Implants, Kirk Hunter, Dan Dean, or the other sample developers, and the combat that prevails. I started as an orchestral, Rock, and Jazz musician in a time when samples were a new concept, and buying a Fairlight (a heavy and cumbersome piece of equipment) was a big decision to make in an unknown and relatively untried field. My mates thought i was mad, as i wrestled with this 'unknown', determined to try out a new technology. Then Atari, then Cubase etc. Those who remember may recall we were Beta testers for an industry, not just a technology, or piece of equipment! And I've watched as that industry has grown and developed, and new technologies and sample libraries are born, and improved upon. Today, compared to the then, is a light year removed, in terms of working practise, and opportunities to manipulate and perform with sound. We have tools we could only dream of a few years ago. I'm constantly amazed at the sounds we have available, and the means of performing with them. Whatever style or genre we choose to write in, there's a library or collection that will give us the potential to take that writing to almost the nth degree. I find that exciting, and although not every library will fit my needs, the choices are there. IMHO, it does none of us any good to inhibit or taint any developer in some quest for competitive edge. That might be true for other business models, but with sample libraries, most of us are 'multiple' owners, and the developers know this. The respect, in general, shown between developers, shows a responsibility to nurture the market in general.
Our market.
While we're searching for a conclusion to a distasteful event, perhaps it's also time to reflect on the advantages to be gained from supporting developers and their efforts, and for the developers to put the past behind them and start anew, with a bit of give and take, and an attempt at mutual respect, on all sides. 

Doug Wellington wrote of being less than ideal as a negotiatior, or conflict resolver. I'm the same, as i get too passionate about fairplay, and perceived slights. More than once i've written stuff i regret later, as the typing takes over from common sense. For me, that edit button is a chance at correcting a mistake, and i'm grateful for it.........:oops:

But is this the time for all parties, developer and users, to take a deep breath, grit the teeth, and start negotiations for peace? The continued conflicts will damage the perception of us all, developer, and user alike. Some people simply don't get on with each other, that's a fact, but to descend into a full scale riot each time there is a perceived slight, serves no purpose, except for those who enjoy that sort of thing.

Being right, or 'winning', at least from my own experience, doesn't always bring the satisfaction one expects.

Again, my apologies if anything i wrote previously in relation to this was found wanting. 

Alex.


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## Thonex (Mar 13, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story*



Doug Wellington @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> Thonex @ Sun Mar 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Wellington @ Sun Mar 12 said:
> ...



Yeah maybe. You're probably right.

I look at it the other way though.... it took a lot of guts for him to say the "cesspool" thing.... but the responsible thing to do after that was to apologize-- which he did.

To me it takes guts when you risk losing something... but by apologizing he had everything to gain and as such I though it was the responsible thing to do... and the right thing... and again... duly appreciated

T


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## Craig Sharmat (Mar 13, 2006)

*Re: BelaD Giovani - A Sad Story and Possible Happy Ending..*



Aaron Dirk @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> This is truly sad.... The whole incident is sad.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry to see Craig paid a price too, but seriously, he stopped contributing over there quit some time ago. I'm sure Craig didn't shed a tear or will lose sleep over this. I'm sure Craig doesn't feel Alan should be punished in all this either. Craig is still here for all to enjoy.
> ...



What is correct is I did not lose sleep over the banning, I had a job that was kicking my butt so i did sleep fine thank you. What is incorrect is I was still poò;p   4~;p   4;p   4€;p   4;p   4‚;p   4ƒ;p   4„;p   4…;p   4†;p   4‡;p   4ˆ;p   4‰;p   4Š;p   4‹;p   4Œ;p   4;p   4Ž;p   4;p   4;p   4‘;p   4’;p   4“;p   4”;p   4•;p   4–;p   4—;q   4˜;q   4™;q   4š;q   4›;q   4œ;q   4;q   4ž;q   4Ÿ;q   4 ;q   4¡;q   4¢;q   4£;q   4¤;q   4¥;q   4¦;q   4§;q   4¨;q   4©;q   4ª;q   4«;q   4¬;q   4­;q   4®;q   4¯;q   4°;q   4±;q   4²;q   4³;r   4´;r   4µ;r   4¶;r   4·;r   4¸;r   4¹;r   4º;r   4»;r   4¼;r   4½;r   4¾;r   4¿;r   4À;r   4Á;r   4Â;r   4Ã;r   4Ä;r   4Å;r   4Æ;r   4Ç;r   4È;r   4É;r   4Ê;r   4Ë;r   4Ì;r   4Í;r   4Î;r   4Ï;r   4Ð;r   4Ñ;r   4Ò;r   4Ó;r   4Ô;r   4Õ;r   4Ö;r   4×;r   4Ø;r   4Ù;r   4Ú;r   4Û;r   4Ü;r   4Ý;r   4Þ;r   4ß;r   4à;r   4á;r   4â;r   4ã;r


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## Chrislight (Mar 13, 2006)

I would like to say, moderating a forum such as this is NOT an easy job. It requires making decisions based on what is best for the community overall - not on one person, or a small group's desires. As such, you are never going to please 100% of the people. I personally know that Frederick takes each and every one of those decisions to heart and is deeply committed to keeping things here as positive as possible since many do consider VI to be their "home". However, he cannot control what is being said by the other members here - nor can he take responsibility for that. He cannot jump in and start deleting postings because somebody has overreacted and said things they shouldn't. Time and time again, Frederick has come in when members have gone off in the personal attack direction and brought things back to the discussion of topics pertinent to this forum.

The bottom line is we ALL have a choice of what we say before we push the "Submit" button. We have a choice to not overreact when somebody says something about us personally. To expect somebody else to come in and clean up our mess or hide it from the public is not accepting the personal responsibility for our own actions. Let me say here, I am NOT condoning what was said by the individual who started this whole thing rolling, but the other party had the choice not to react the way he did. Instead of condemning the whole community here, he could have simply stated to the individual how hurtful and unfair (or whatever) his allegations were. That way, he would have shown himself to be the professional and had gained even more support of the community, as many of them protested those comments - even after being condemned themselves.

I think that's great an apology was finally extended when it was mentioned about possibly hurting sales, but I think that apology should have been extended to the "forum owner" too would handled a very difficult situation the best he could. After having the original thread removed temporarily, a majority of the members here wanted it returned so that it would not appear things were being hid and so that things could be worked out publically and that is what has happened. People have been allowed to express themselves and hopefully some lessons have been learned all around.


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## choc0thrax (Mar 13, 2006)

Removing Sharmy's 1900 posts is more damaging to anyone new to sampling who is reading the NS archives than to Sharmy himself I imagine.


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## Simon Ravn (Mar 13, 2006)

Chocothrax yes. But it just proves for the umpteenth time that NS is not about composers sharing information and knowledge about sample libraries, it's about selling the products of those who pay for being at NS.


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## choc0thrax (Mar 13, 2006)

Alright i'm fed up with people spelling my name wrong. It's chocothrax! There's two H's.


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## sbkp (Mar 13, 2006)

I concur with what many have said here. It was the responsible thing for Francis to apologize here publicly. And it took guts to do so. The world would be a better place if more people were so responsible.

For the record, I hope that Bela D (and crew) will continue to have a presence here at VI. This forum is for musicians and composers, and Bela D produces products that fulfill a need for many. I don't like developer wars, but I like being able to communicate with developers (and I can't do that at NSS anymore, natch ). So I think it's great to have developers here at VI.

Everyone should remember that in any large group of people, there will be a few people one doesn't care for. There will always be a couple of rotten apples in any barrel. It's too bad, in my opinion, if that spoils the whole lot. That group can still be of tremendous value.

Otherwise, you end up with a situation like this amusing proverb I once read:



> If you add a teaspoon of wine to a barrel of sewage, you have sewage.
> 
> If you add a teaspoon of sewage to a barrel of wine, you have sewage.



Peace!

- Stefan


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## Doug Wellington (Mar 13, 2006)

madbulk @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> Been a little busy the past couple of days. Did I miss anything?


SNORT!!! Dang, more coffee on the keyboard!

Why no, nothing going on around here... :lol:


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## Simon Ravn (Mar 13, 2006)

choc0thrax @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> Alright i'm fed up with people spelling my name wrong. It's chocothrax! There's two H's.



Isn't that what I wrote? :mrgreen:


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## Doug Wellington (Mar 13, 2006)

sbkp @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> Everyone should remember that in any large group of people, there will be a few people one doesn't care for.


Doesn't even have to be a large group. Here at work, I'm one of four system administrators. A year ago, we were split in half, and one group couldn't stand the other group. Guess what? We were all moved into cubicles in one big room, and we HAD to learn to get along! Sheesh, it really chapped their hides to have to be in the same room with me, especially since I'm by the door and everyone has to walk by me, but I think they finally got over it. Heehee... :mrgreen:


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## choc0thrax (Mar 13, 2006)

Simon Ravn @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> choc0thrax @ Mon Mar 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Alright i'm fed up with people spelling my name wrong. It's chocothrax! There's two H's.
> ...



AHAHAHAHAHA....If you ever give up video editing i'm sure you can find work as a stand up comic.


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## fictionmusic (Mar 13, 2006)

Hermitage 59 said
"Good to see some sense prevailing at last, and in the interests of continuing in that vein, if anything i wrote offended, you have my apologies too. "

"It seems to be overwhelmingly true that there issues with NS for many of you." 

" more than one were kicking Frank while he was down, i noticed he got nailed with a a wider long term issue and that is the relationship between many of you and NS"

"Some people simply don't get on with each other, that's a fact, but to descend into a full scale riot each time there is a perceived slight, serves no purpose, except for those who enjoy that sort of thing. 

Being right, or 'winning', at least from my own experience, doesn't always bring the satisfaction one expects. 

Again, my apologies if anything i wrote previously in relation to this was found wanting. 

Alex."


Well Alex, I for one appreciate the post and accept your apology. In the same spirit of fairplay and reconciliation let me try to clarify one of the reasons there is such unrest right now. In a NS thread you said VI had nothing but average composers touting their "professionalism" and adoring self-proclaimed gods. Frank then called us a cesspool led by Eurotrash. In both cases I think the person who you were really angry at was Simon, but after your condemnation of everyone else here, you personally insulted all of us. Even in your apology you seem to include "most" and "many" of us in your descriptions. Yes people have complained about NS, but mostly because they were banned for what they believed to be no good reason (except Choco who should pretty well be banned everywhere  ). 

You see what the problem is? Instead of specifically pointing to one person or several people, you seem to think there is a forum consenus about Francis. I thought Simon's crack about Francis' "unprofessional post" was tasteless in view of the subject matter, and incendiary considering how volatile Francis seems to be. I told Simon as much (actually I called him childish and needlessly vindictive) and he responded very civilly, seemed not to take offence and saw the merit in my remarks while still maintaining his original assertation.

Now here we are with this whole thing winding down, and I hope you don't think I am dismissing your apology, but I think the real problem was personal remarks from both sides have erroneously been attributed to the forum proper. Simon isn't our leader (or a self-proclaimed God, or Euro-trash, nor do we "adore" him), rather he is a respected forum member. I think the same is true about Francis at NS. In other words, Simon doesn't speak for VI, nor does Francis speak for NS, rather both of them speak only for themselves.

I think it is admirable that you and Francis have apologized to the forum as a whole for remarks that involved us all, but I have seen requests for Fred to apologize, and hints that Simon should too. I think Fred has done nothing wrong except provide a place for people to talk freely, and personally, considering the animosity that exists between Simon and Francis (that seems far older than the recent flare-up) I think it is asking too much to expect either of them to forgive and forget. 

Anyway, let's just move on, like you said, "being right, doesn't always lead to the results you expect".


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## Hermitage59 (Mar 13, 2006)

fictionmusic @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> Hermitage 59 said
> "Good to see some sense prevailing at last, and in the interests of continuing in that vein, if anything i wrote offended, you have my apologies too. "
> 
> "It seems to be overwhelmingly true that there issues with NS for many of you."
> ...



And i will be the first to acknowledge i hit the retort button before engaging the brain.

Thanks for the timely reminder.

Alex.


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## synergy543 (Mar 13, 2006)

Alex,

I find your post rather insulting and attempting to incite rather than resolve as Aaron Dirk was sincerely attempting. It seems that maybe you did not carefully read my reply to Aaron nor the EDIT remark I post at the beginning of this thread. Well, in the spirit of redress I will reply to some of your comments specifically below.



Hermitage59 @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> Frank's passionate nature shouldn't be construed negatively IMO, as it is that passion that has driven him and the team at BelaD to creat some wonderful tools for us to use.


Neither should the open views expressed here on VI. The motto of musicians helping musicians leads towards open expression of concerns and ideas.



Hermitage59 @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> In all that's been written, and i'm still uncertain why this thread 'needed' to be started in the first place with the pontification of cheque book blackmail, some good seems to have come from it.


Sir, you may be living in Russia but in the free world, we have the right to express ourselves and to decide how we wish to spend our money. Your insinuations of "blackmail" are in extreme poor taste at best and possibly slanderous and libelous. You are not helping your friend by making such remarks.




Hermitage59 @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> I think it would go a long towards putting this further behind, if some of you apologised here, PUBLICLY, for putting the boot in out of spite.


Sir, although Simon has chosen not to step forward others of us have taken our time to try to make amends and put this behind us. So, although I can't apologize for Simon, I have gone far out of my way attempting to resolve a situation that others have started that have now involved all VI members.




Hermitage59 @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> Gregory Moore, there's been several attempts in the thread from others to lay this to rest. So far you've extrapolated and reasoned to prevent that, as your perception of a perceived slight continues, and i fear sadly, you're getting some small satisfaction from discomfort or humiliation you may percieve Frank's going through.


Sir, I have done nothing but make attempts to resolve this issue. Again, I resent your remarks and find your coments ignorant and inciteful.




Hermitage59 @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> But why don't YOU do the right thing, scrap that nonsense you wrote in the first post, and offer the PUBLIC hand of apology to Frank, in the interests of fair play? Your first post doesn't read as an expression of affront over some personal angst. It reads as a condemation on your part of BelaD the company, and the products it produces. Frank's perceived behaviour is just an excuse.


Sir, this is not Disneyland nor NS and messages are not "whitewashed". In a similar spirit, why don't you ask over at NS that all deleted threads be reinstated in the interest of truth and honesty?
Nevertheless as I said, I have made EDIT comments and clarifications on my position as the thread has evolved. Again please re-read my response to Aaron Dirk as I think this best sums up where things stand.



Hermitage59 @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> Whatever your issues with the decision over at NS, it's not Frank's fault, and i wish you'd accept that, and not keep trying to use him and BelaD as the excuse to rant about NS, or it's policies. Because as it continues further, i think a lot of people are going to begin to get the impression that there IS a vendetta, and that won't look good for you or VI in general.


Alex, I have openly acknowleged that Frank does not have control over decisions at NS although he certainly has some influence as one of their customers. Why are you so concerned about how I as a customer feel? Exactly!




Hermitage59 @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> I sincerely wish the members of this forum success in the future, and have no issue with any of you, but i suspect this recent spat has gone a long way towards damaging or affecting possible friendships or professional associations between some. I find that saddening. Personally, it's the same for me, as i note people i thought were fairly decent, putting the boot into someone else because it's fun, and showing another side of their character. It's certainly opened my eyes.
> 
> So what about it Gregory? Frank was man enough to apologise publicly.



What about what? 
I have bent over backwards to resovle the issues between others and explained how they have personally affected my decision as a potential customer. Do you have a problem with that? Does the openness and honesty bother you? *As Frank will attest to, I have personally sent my condolences to Frank both towards his father and about the unfortunate comments that were made by someone else.* I have also stated this publically as well. And I have my own requests to members of this forum on Frank's behalf. I have no personal gain to do any of this.

Alex, you my friend are simply trying to incite and create resentment where much already been done to resolve. I will not grab your bait. Not all is perfectly rosy and clear as you can read in this thread. However, a great deal has been done to make amends on both sides. These are big steps. So you need to look at the positive aspects of this. You also need to accept that this is NOT NS and words don't magically change and posts don't suddenly get "cleaned up" and disapper. This is a forum for open honest exchange and not an advertising board. That is something you need to accept.




Hermitage59 @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> But is this the time for all parties, developer and users, to take a deep breath, grit the teeth, and start negotiations for peace? The continued conflicts will damage the perception of us all, developer, and user alike. Some people simply don't get on with each other, that's a fact, but to descend into a full scale riot each time there is a perceived slight, serves no purpose, except for those who enjoy that sort of thing.


Sir, you blow this isssue all out of proportion. Many great gestures have been made to bring things closer together here. Some wonderful efforts have been made. You need to look on the bright side of life. You'll have a much better day.



Hermitage59 @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> Again, my apologies if anything i wrote previously in relation to this was found wanting.
> 
> Alex.



Alex, that's good of you to post. And likewise had I written anything I regret I would apologize as well. However, I can't apologize for other people and I never had any issues with anyone to start with nor do I now. I just simply have expressed the dilemma that confronted me as a potential customer (as probably has crossed the minds of many) and by doing so it has helped to resolve many of the issues that concerned me to start with. Your post does bring up questions of motive and insincerity for me if I may say so. Nevertheless, I will let bygones be bygones and accept your apology in the spirit of moving forward.

Good day to you.


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## Hermitage59 (Mar 13, 2006)

I can't agree with some of your assumptions, but to take this further would serve no purpose. Whether you accept the sincerity of my apology or not is up to you, and your perception. You are right in this. I see your first post as antagonistic, you don't. There is no slander intended on my part, you see it otherwise. We are, it seems in disagreement as to intent and purpose.
But i agree with you completely in this particular instance, 
this is the point to cease.

A good day to you in return,

Alex.


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## synergy543 (Mar 13, 2006)

Thanks Alex, I accept and respect your different point of view too. Nice that we can do that huh?

Greg


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## Thonex (Mar 13, 2006)

I feel a big group hug coming     

C'mon ya lugs.... gimme a hug...it's ok that I didn't shower in 2 days... just like all of you :shock:   

C'mon.... big hug......

... that's it..... ahhhh.... see.....

That wasn't so bad was it? :shock: :???: :neutral: :smile:


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## Markleford (Mar 13, 2006)

synergy543 @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> Sir, you blow this isssue all out of proportion.


Quite a bit of that on both sides, don't you think? After all, a bit of name-calling like "a cesspool lead by a gang of euro trash thugs" was capable of generating all this ballyhoo!  A few words that enraged an army...

Not nice, no, but the Intarweb isn't exactly a place for the thin-skinned. And doesn't everyone know that Francis is prone to that sort of outburst, so you take it with the grain of salt that it's worth? (Especially with Simon baiting him, oh sorry, "making insightful yet insensitive observations in finely miscalculated provocative language" )

Part of that free speech is being able to take it from the other person and knowing that people say all kinds of crap to each other online that they wouldn't (likely, I hope) say face-to-face. I personally find it distasteful (and a big sticking point for someone representing a company), but we gotta recognize it happens and to chill before going ultra-reactive.

(And no, I'm not innocent here, either! I try, but we're only flawed humans.)

Cool that he retracted afterward, though. I suppose being a hot-head is somewhat forgiveable if backed by responsible humility. Best if it not happen in the first place, though: perhaps we should create a USB heart monitor that prevents posting while the blood is boiling! :mrgreen: 

- m


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## Patrick de Caumette (Mar 13, 2006)

Considering that quite a few of us here are europeens, the "euro-trash" insult didn't feel quite good.
In answer to that statement I posted a very moderate answer to Frank at NS.

It is good that Frank comes here to apologize. In the past, Frank has reacted very angrily on numerous occasions to provocations and confrontations. I am sure that, if he was europeen, he would have had a fit after reading the euro-trash comment (sounds very american imperialist, doesn'it?)
So thanks for the apology (I actually think the apology should have been made at NS, where the insult originated from), I am sure most of us europeens won't hold a grudge against you.

And Hermitage, nice to see you here even though I am quite surprised to read you at VI, since you seemed to think there were no gentlemen around here.
No matter, welcome to a free-speech community!
It has its excesses but there are no hidden agendas and we can all say what we fancy. Would be real nice though if all of us could figure out a way to do that without anger and venom...


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## Markleford (Mar 13, 2006)

Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> Considering that quite a few of us here are europeens, the "euro-trash" insult didn't feel quite good.


I'd honestly thought it was not a big deal, and if anything was a pathetic stab at trying to hurt people with ineffectual verbal flailing. I mean, honestly, how does "euro-trash" come out as the best choice to try to hurt someone? Seems that "poopy-head" would be about as potent.

And does it indeed come anywhere near the top of the list of phrases you'd think would hurt you? Perhaps "euro-trash" holds more gravity on the continent than I'm giving it credit for.

(Odd that I'm speaking of over-sensitivity here, while admitting to myself being perhaps overly sensitive on another thread...)

Then again, I broadly catagorize Americans as stupid self-centered cattle with all righteous intention, despite being American myself! 

( And truth be known... I'd thought he was Italian! :shock: )

- m


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## christianb (Mar 13, 2006)

Markleford @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> Then again, I broadly catagorize Americans as stupid self-centered cattle with all righteous intention, despite being American myself!
> 
> 
> - m




moooo



cb


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## joaz (Mar 14, 2006)

Markleford @ Tue Mar 14 said:


> I mean, honestly, how does "euro-trash" come out as the best choice to try to hurt someone? Seems that "poopy-head" would be about as potent.
> - m



I am european and pretty trashy, so in my case at least, I have no cause for complaint.
However if I was called Mr Poopy Head, I could forsee a long course of therapy, might be necesarry. :smile: :lol: 

regards


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