# Can anyone learn how to sing?



## Niah2 (Oct 21, 2021)

Hello everyone,

Can anyone learn how to sing or is singing something innate that you are born with that be refined?


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Oct 21, 2021)

Well singing can certainly be refine but can anyone ultimately do it? I'd like to think so if they put their heads to it. But i really don't know. Probably not the best place to ask this question. I'm sure there are forums for singers out there that could help you with that.


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## Paul Grymaud (Oct 21, 2021)

The voice is the oldest, most beautiful and most personal of all musical instruments. In fact, the closest instrument to the voice is the cello. In any case, for the lyric voice, it is essential to have a good musical ear (to sing in tune), to interpret works in one's vocal range. If the talent is there, the rest is a question of work, work and more work. Also let time do its work. Willpower and perseverance will be necessary.

If the talent AND the will but also the mastery of vocal techniques are present, then everything is possible. The last aspect is the tone of the voice. A beautiful and warm tone cannot be learned. It contributes to the vocal identity.

I would summarize the answer in one question: Can anyone play the cello?
I am a professional banjo player but also a lyric tenor soloist. So, this is my humble opinion on a question that I know well because I also teach singing (and banjo) and I notice that few candidates persevere because singing - I am talking about the opera repertoire - cannot be learned in a day or even in a year...


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## Duncan Krummel (Oct 21, 2021)

I'm classically trained, and have taught voice lessons for about half a decade now. Everyone can learn. Everyone. Not everyone will, that's the only limiting factor, but what constitutes having 'learned' is different for everyone. What do you want to achieve? What would make you feel comfortable with your voice? That's unique to everyone, but regardless of comfort or skill level, everyone can and should enjoy singing.

Edit: Also worth mentioning: vocal science is sound and fairly well researched. Vocal_ists_ on the other hand can never agree. Artists...


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## dzilizzi (Oct 21, 2021)

Yes, with a caveat. You need to be able to hear to match tones. The only people I have known that have had problems learning were those with hearing loss. If all notes sound the same, you won't know what note you are singing. 

Potentially there is a way you can learn by placement, but usually the people that can do that knew how to sing before they lost their hearing.


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## Polkasound (Oct 21, 2021)

Lots of theories exist on this one. It's been my solid belief that singing ability is no different from academic or athletic ability — you're born with a certain level of talent for it.

The best singers were gifted from birth. It's as simple as that. Without a single voice lesson, they just always had a natural ability to mimic what they heard and control their breath and intonation. These were the kids who were wowing at talent shows by their early teens.

Naturally-gifted singers like these will continue to improve either a little or a lot on their own, but with vocal training, they'll improve the most by shunning bad habits and learning how to find and develop their own voice. The ones who don't pursue singing seriously will still always be able to sing better than their friends and get the most applause at karaoke bars.

People who can't carry a tune to save their lives (assuming they're not tone-deaf) can definitely get better over time, especially with training and perseverance, but I seriously doubt they'll ever see a 1st place trophy or a record deal. It's just not in the cards for them.


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## ryans (Oct 21, 2021)

I imagine only complete tone deafness, and (rhythm deafness?) could prevent a person from singing. Even if a person couldn't differentiate pitches they might still be able to chant, rap, beatbox etc. if they could follow a beat. And I would classify that as singing.


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## synkrotron (Oct 21, 2021)

rewind back to 1969, I was nine...

going into "fourth year" of junior school, not sure how that converts to today's thinking

there were two classes at my school for that year, Mr Mitchell and Mrs (I can't remember, began with an N)

I had no choice over which of those classes I joined for the rest of the year, but we all had to sing something, not as a group, I seem to recall it was a one on one assessment, if you know what I mean

I was sent to Mr Mitchell's class

then the following year, when I went to Big School, I dropped music entirely

so, as to the question, "can anyone learn how to sing?"

in my case, no

(I did try again when I was in my very early twenties... I had one of them new-fangled four track cassette thingies... it didn't go well at all)


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## Niah2 (Oct 23, 2021)

Thank you for everyone's contributions.

I have always dismissed singing for me because it never came naturally. I could never sing any tune but I was shocked recently that I needed some overtone singing for a track and it actually came out as perfect C when I tried to recorded with my own voice. The intention was just to create a demo for the real singer in any way that I could and it came out much better than I thought. Of course when I tried to reproduce exactly what I did in a second take it came out as a D haha. But that's understandable since I don't have any training.

Now I know that overtone singing is very different than actually singing a tune of course but it got thinking if maybe I have given up on something that could actually learn with some training (not just overtone singing). Now my intention would never to become a professional singer since my focus is on composition but rather have another tool to aid me in my compositions. 

Again thank you so much for your insights as always.


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## rgames (Oct 23, 2021)

The answer to your question is yes so long as the person can make noises come out of his mouth.

But the better question is whether those noises appeal to anyone.

rgames


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## Trash Panda (Oct 23, 2021)

Yes, anyone can learn how to sing. I recommend Chris Liepe’s YouTube channel. His paid courses are also very, very good for this.


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## CoffeeLover (Oct 23, 2021)

Niah2 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Can anyone learn how to sing or is singing something innate that you are born with that be refined?


everybody with a functional ear and voice can learn to sing but i guess it hecomes a challence once one suffers from being tonedeaf.


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## Double Helix (Oct 23, 2021)

Certainly lessons can help; however, if people can get used to hearing the sound of their voice/get over the inherent self-consciousness, they can absolutely make progress.


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## rgames (Oct 23, 2021)

CoffeeLover said:


> one suffers from being tonedeaf


Even that is something that I think can be overcome because I'm not sure any human being who can hear anything can be "tonedeaf".

For example, a "tonedeaf" person can distinguish between male and female voices and can even distinguish very well among specific male and female voices. If a "tonedeaf" person hears the voice of someone he knows well he can identify who it is strictly based on the sound.

I think anyone who has that capacity cannot be "tonedeaf" because that's proof that they have the ability to distinguish tonal material.

I think what is commonly refered to as "tonedeaf" is better described as "lack of tonal control" for lack of a more concise description. Tonedeaf people can sense that they're not on pitch, they just can't figure out how to correct it. That's a control issue, not a sensory issue.

Given that fact, I bet you can teach a "tonedeaf" person to match pitch. They can sense it and they can correct it, they just need to link up the cognitive processes that make it happen.

It's like throwing a baseball: you have the muscles to generate the motion and the sight/touch to correct it. The rest is just training the links among those systems.

rgames


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## rrichard63 (Oct 23, 2021)

I spent most of a lifetime thinking I couldn't carry a tune in a bucket. Now I do it well enough to participate in classic country and bluegrass jams. But I still can't find harmony parts to save myself, so there's a limit.

I agree with much of what has already been said here. Real tonedeafness apparently does exist but is extremely rare -- much, much less common than the belief that you can't match pitch. Almost everyone can learn to sing. But while everyone can learn, there is such a thing as talent and some people can learn to deliver more moving performances than others can.


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## Stringtree (Oct 23, 2021)

The voice can do all sorts of things, and so as long as the sounds do interesting things, it's a wide-open field. The answer is, "yes, you can sing if you want to." Loud and confident, unapologetic, individual. Your own instrument that nobody else has. No shame.

Now, if you want to sound like proper singers, you've got a hard road ahead. The skills are real, just like those on guitar, keyboard, viola, or whatever else. Hours. Pain. Theory. Repertoire. History.

Listen to a voice that makes you cry, or feel anything at all, and go somewhere nobody can hear you. Do the same. Let go. When you feel better and more confident, go and do it in front of somebody else you trust who will talk to you. Sing triumphant stuff. Quiet, whispery stuff. Whatever sizzles.

I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone turn away from a sure voice with something to say, even if it's not "trained." We're all good at detecting something authentic and real in seconds.

In fact, it stops everything in the room from happening. Wanna do that? Do that, and not the doubty stuff you're worrying about. Sing because you want to. Privately, in front of friends, challenge yourself. Say, "Self, I'm going to start this, see it through." Be sure about it. Proud.

Shy about your skills? Make them better. Watch some videos. Listen to relevant repertoire. Sing. Do the thing. Immerse yourself in what has come before you, grit your teeth, and be loud enough and breathe air while doing it. Where are your eyes looking? Up. 

Just sing. The instrument is you.


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## NekujaK (Oct 23, 2021)

There are many aspects to singing, and good singers have competency in all of them.

First, as many have mentioned already, is the ability to differentiate and accurately articulate pitch. Part of this is being able to hear and recognize pitch information, and the other part is the ability to convert what you hear in your brain accurately to a sung note. Most people possess these skills naturally, but if you don't, it will take a lot of work, study and practice to develop.

Next is vocal control. The voice box is made of muscle and tissue, and like any other muscle, it needs to be strengthened. At its most basic level, vocal control is the ability to hold a sustained note without wavering or drifting off pitch. More advanced is the ability to execute rapid pitch-perfect runs and flourishes. This is primarily a physical skill and lots of practice and vocal exercises will get most people there. This also includes things like breath control and learning how not to harm your voice with improper technique.

And then we have tone. Our voices naturally have their own characteristic sound, and there's only so much we can do to alter it. But I know many singers across many musical styles who spent years crafting their tone, making a series of small improvements to achieve the sound they wanted. The transformations aren't huge - they still sound like themselves - but the sound is more refined and pleasing.

Performance is another aspect of being a good singer. Phrasing, interpretation, pronunciation (dipthongs), and the overall ability to "sell" a lyric are skills that need to be developed over and above just being able to sing on key.

Musical style also comes into play. A good singer is a good singer, but not every singer can necessarily fit into every musical style. I wouldn't hire John Denver to front my hard rock band, and I wouldn't cast Mick Jagger in an operetta. Once you've mastered your vocal technique, you need to understand where your voice fits best. You may not be able to sing everything well.

Like with any skill, some people are naturally born with the necessary physical and mental wiring, while the rest of us must struggle to reach even a mediocre level of competency. I took guitar lessons for years and practiced like a madman, but I'll never be able to play like Eddie Van Halen - my muscles and nervous system just aren't wired for it. Just as not every baseball player can hit home runs. It's important to know one's limitations and ultimately play to their strengths, but never let that stop you from exploring and trying.

Yes, everyone can learn to sing, but some folks will do it better than others.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 25, 2021)

I have been singing, professionally and amateur, for 64 years. What I can say is that anyone who can repeat pitch (sing a note that is played or sung back) can be a singer.

i would also suggest that nothing can make you a “good” singer, give you a beautiful or felicitous or even pleasing tone. I speak from much experience.


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## Mike Greene (Oct 25, 2021)

NYC Composer said:


> i would also suggest that nothing can make you a “good” singer, give you a beautiful or felicitous or even pleasing tone. I speak from much experience.


I share that experience.  (Although in your case, I think you sound good.)

I'll add that sounding good is often a matter of what style you're trying to do. When I was in high school, I tried to be Steve Perry, Lou Gramm, and all these other high voice power singers. I sounded horrible, as I screeched my way through these songs. I have more of a Jackson Brown or James Taylor kind of singing voice, but I hated that kind of "wimpy" music, plus I had no appreciation or understanding of poetic lyrics, so even if I could go back, I don't think I could convince High School Mike to do that. So ... I screeched on!


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## Trash Panda (Oct 25, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> I share that experience.  (Although in your case, I think you sound good.)
> 
> I'll add that sounding good is often a matter of what style you're trying to do. When I was in high school, I tried to be Steve Perry, Lou Gramm, and all these other high voice power singers. I sounded horrible, as I screeched my way through these songs. I have more of a Jackson Brown or James Taylor kind of singing voice, but I hated that kind of "wimpy" music, plus I had no appreciation or understanding of poetic lyrics, so even if I could go back, I don't think I could convince High School Mike to do that. So ... I screeched on!


I still struggle against this. My natural singing voice is a Peter Steele with less low end, but my heart wants my voice to be a Maynard James Keenan.


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## b_elliott (Oct 25, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> I share that experience.  (Although in your case, I think you sound good.)
> 
> So ... I screeched on!


My singing experience has been limited to one year in ear training. At the end of the semester a test was to sight read/sing (do-re-mi) a written melody given by the prof. 

I can't croak through Happy Birthday without going off key; so, in a panic I sang back the melody in an operatic style (so-so-do' do) a la _Don Giovanni_. 
The whole class howled in laughter as my singing was pathetic at best, but hey I did nail the notes and got my pass. 
Currently though all mics are hidden from me in any live performance I do.

But to answer the OP's question: no.


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## Duncan Krummel (Oct 25, 2021)

*sigh*

I don’t want to provoke arguments, but OP please don’t listen to anyone saying that for some it’s not possible to learn how to sing. Singing is a native part of our physiology. Barring a physical or legitimate developmental barrier, anyone CAN sing. In fact, everyone in this thread - again barring the aforementioned - can sing. Will everyone love it? No. But, can each person here develop a beautiful voice? Yes. This isn’t even a question. Everyone can learn to sing. Not everyone will. Self practice will _probably _not get you there. You need a trained coach, but everyone can improve. Again, look at the science (and realize that a lot of historical vocal pedagogy is, unfortunately, not grounded in modern science).


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## Rossy (Oct 25, 2021)

Not that I am the greatest musician but I can hold my own after over 40 years of playing but I would love to learn to sing. From singers I have worked with, in the studio and live, If you find a great vocal coach, you can get very far but as others have said, it's hard work and dedication. I am one of the people who do not believe people are "born" with a gift of musical capabilities, the people who are skillful in their instruments are just very hard workers and obviously have a massive passion for what they do and their thirst to learn. A good vocal coach will be able to spot/hear things and help you correct them, then just like every instrument, it's practice, practice, practice.


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## paularthur (Oct 25, 2021)

From what I've observed - In your native vocal range, you can learn to vocalize the solfege. Beyond that, singing a pop song or operatic style, depends on your natural vocal chords. I've met people who can sing vowels well but can't translate it into singing lyrics in a pop song.


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## Futchibon (Oct 25, 2021)

Celine Dion = great singer = not so great songs
Bob Dylan = not so great singer = great songs


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## TonalDynamics (Oct 25, 2021)

Depends on the reason for current 'poor' singing.

If your ear is good and you can hear when you're off-key and just want to train your voice to be on pitch, then most certainly yes.

If your ear is not so good, and you can't hear when you're off-key, training your voice will only help so much.

But it's an issue of degrees, of course.


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## Rich4747 (Oct 25, 2021)

I think anyone can have a beautiful voice. Clearing ones soul from the crud that blocks that voice may be the hard part.


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## José Herring (Oct 25, 2021)

Duncan Krummel said:


> *sigh*
> 
> I don’t want to provoke arguments, but OP please don’t listen to anyone saying that for some it’s not possible to learn how to sing. Singing is a native part of our physiology. Barring a physical or legitimate developmental barrier, anyone CAN sing. In fact, everyone in this thread - again barring the aforementioned - can sing. Will everyone love it? No. But, can each person here develop a beautiful voice? Yes. This isn’t even a question. Everyone can learn to sing. Not everyone will. Self practice will _probably _not get you there. You need a trained coach, but everyone can improve. Again, look at the science (and realize that a lot of historical vocal pedagogy is, unfortunately, not grounded in modern science).


I'm inclined to agree with you. I think anybody can learn to sing. I even tried to learn how to sing in college. Took voice classes then it him me....


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## bill5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Niah2 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Can anyone learn how to sing or is singing something innate that you are born with that be refined?


Basically anyone with functioning vocal chords can sing. No lessons required. The real question (and I assume yours) is can anyone learn to sing well (or at least competently). No.

Anyone can learn to sing BETTER. At least a little. But there is merit to "you either got it or you don't." Some people could never be even passable no matter how many lessons they took, while some can sing like a bird with no lessons whatsoever. And all in betweens.


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## bill5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Rossy said:


> I am one of the people who do not believe people are "born" with a gift of musical capabilities,


You and those other people are wrong. Sorry. Mozart comes to mind as an obvious example and there are truckloads more. People are born with a wide variety of abilities of all kinds, musically included. Some have little, some have a lot, again many in betweens.


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## bill5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Duncan Krummel said:


> can each person here develop a beautiful voice? Yes. This isn’t even a question. Everyone can learn to sing.


Again, there is a huge difference between simply learning to sing (a broad category) and having a beautiful voice.


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## ResidentSmeagol (Oct 25, 2021)

Rossy said:


> I am one of the people who do not believe people are "born" with a gift of musical capabilities, the people who are skillful in their instruments are just very hard workers and obviously have a massive passion for what they do and their thirst to learn.


No, there are definitely people who are born with the gift of musical capabilities. My girlfriend is a first call oboist who's played on tons of recording sessions and movie dates and with movie orchestras. She was virtually a virtuoso on the oboe from the beginning and flat out confided to me that she actually hates the oboe but she's lazy and she plays it because she can excel at it with no effort so she takes the path of least resistance even though she doesn't like the instrument. 

I, on the other hand was not born with a gift of musical capabilities and had to work extremely hard. Eventually I was able to get to the point of being a first call session pianist and to finally get called for major label record dates and touring as a sideman with big pop acts but I had to be willing to put in 10x the effort to get there.

My girlfriend and I are both in our early 50s. We're both basically at the same level musically and get called for the same kinds of major sessions but the difference is she was getting called for that stuff when she was 18 and she didn't have to put any effort in on top of it. I didn't break into the session scene until my early 30s and I had to put in almost an inhuman amount of effort, practice, and work to get to the point that I'd be considered a first call. 

So I definitely believe that there are people born with the gift of musical capabilities, and can succeed to a high level with very little effort because of it. My girlfriend is living proof.

But I also believe that someone born without the gift of musical capabilities can also succeed to a high level as long as they're willing to put in the tremendous amount of effort to offset their lack of musical gifts. I'm living proof of that.

But is everyone willing to put in that level of effort? Well, as Duncan in this thread has noted, that's another thing altogether.

I definitely believe anyone can learn to sing, and sing professionally regardless of what skills they're born with. You may not be regarded as "The most beautiful voice in the world" like Nana Mouskouri, but you can get good enough to sing professionally. Is everyone willing to put in that amount of effort? Probably not.


Futchibon said:


> Celine Dion = great singer = not so great songs
> Bob Dylan = not so great singer = great songs


Lol for years I never "got" Dylan. I thought his songs were horrible. Until I heard other people sing them and then I thought his songs were good. I just realized that I needed to hear other people sing his songs for me to like them.



TonalDynamics said:


> Depends on the reason for current 'poor' singing.
> 
> If your ear is good and you can hear when you're off-key and just want to train your voice to be on pitch, then most certainly yes.
> 
> ...


No, you just need to keep going back a step until you fix the underlying issues. If you have a poor ear, then you just need to go back another step and fix that with ear training. Once that problem is fixed, then you can progress to singing. But like I stated earlier, is everyone willing to put in that much effort just to sing? That's up to the person but I'm sure most wouldn't be willing.


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## Duncan Krummel (Oct 25, 2021)

bill5 said:


> You and those other people are wrong. Sorry. Mozart comes to mind as an obvious example and there are truckloads more. People are born with a wide variety of abilities of all kinds, musically included. Some have little, some have a lot, again many in betweens.


Mozart was developmentally stunted because his father forced him to practice and perform beyond what any person should endure. He was not “gifted from on high” or some other fluff. 


bill5 said:


> Again, there is a huge difference between simply learning to sing (a broad category) and having a beautiful voice.


This comes down to a lack of constant effort and/or ineffective teaching.

Again, I encourage people to seek out the science of vocal production. Artists waffle, but scientists have very resolute understandings about vocal mechanics. There is no question on whether people _can_ learn to sing. They can. Everyone can. End of debate. Whether they do or find proper guidance is the only question.


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## I like music (Oct 25, 2021)

Here's a question. Based how you can already sing without training as an adult, is it possible for an experienced observer to predict how "well" you'll be able to sing, with good training and hard work?


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Oct 25, 2021)

ResidentSmeagol said:


> No, there are definitely people who are born with the gift of musical capabilities. My girlfriend is a first call oboist who's played on tons of recording sessions and movie dates and with movie orchestras. She was virtually a virtuoso on the oboe from the beginning and flat out confided to me that she actually hates the oboe but she's lazy and she plays it because she can excel at it with no effort so she takes the path of least resistance even though she doesn't like the instrument.
> 
> I, on the other hand was not born with a gift of musical capabilities and had to work extremely hard. Eventually I was able to get to the point of being a first call session pianist and to finally get called for major label record dates and touring as a sideman with big pop acts but I had to be willing to put in 10x the effort to get there.
> 
> ...


Good point but is it fair to compare the piano and the Oboe? I'm guessing there's a lot more pianist on the market than oboist and the piano has got to be harder to master no? Just guessing.


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## zigzag (Oct 26, 2021)

b_elliott said:


> I can't croak through Happy Birthday without going off key; so, in a panic I sang back the melody in an operatic style (so-so-do' do) a la _Don Giovanni_.
> The whole class howled in laughter as my singing was pathetic at best, but hey I did nail the notes and got my pass.


Too high expectations and public performance anxiety can make you too tensed up to be able to sing. Also, trying to sing pitches too far from your comfortable pitch range or focusing on style too early can degrade your ability to sing. These are all my mistakes.


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## Duncan Krummel (Oct 26, 2021)

I like music said:


> Here's a question. Based how you can already sing without training as an adult, is it possible for an experienced observer to predict how "well" you'll be able to sing, with good training and hard work?


I'm sure many here could identify certain geometries of a room based solely on a snippet of audio. I remember an ex asking about an audition recording for an opera program and it was very apparent she had recorded it in a small, square room.

Similarly, it can become very clear with careful listening and training to identify where a person is holding tension when they sing, where their placement is, how their breathing, and even how they're standing to some degree, simply by listening to them sing. For me, tongue and jaw tension is the most obvious one, but the more I've taught and performed, the more I've starting to identify how a person is breathing based on their phonation. The best voice teachers I've had have even been able to identify many of these while I'm simply speaking. That seems to be a world above my understanding currently, and feels like magic.

That's bit of a related tangent, but I'd hazard that - while no one can truly make a value judgement on a person's future _outcome _- I think it's safe to say that what an excellent teacher _can_ do is make potential observations on how much effort is going to need to be spent on correcting form and technique in the beginning vs. building new technique. I mean, if you've spent the better half of a century smoking 4 packs a day, and you find a teacher who comes from a bel canto background, you're going to have some issues. However, if you're wanting to learn how to effectively, and healthily, sing, find a teacher. You can learn, and you can improve.


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## bill5 (Oct 26, 2021)

Duncan Krummel said:


> Mozart was developmentally stunted because his father forced him to practice and perform beyond what any person should endure. He was not “gifted from on high” or some other fluff.
> 
> This comes down to a lack of constant effort and/or ineffective teaching.
> 
> Again, I encourage people to seek out the science of vocal production. Artists waffle, but scientists have very resolute understandings about vocal mechanics. There is no question on whether people _can_ learn to sing. They can. Everyone can. End of debate. Whether they do or find proper guidance is the only question.


: facepalm :

Clearly no point in going any further with you on this.


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## dzilizzi (Oct 26, 2021)

I like music said:


> Here's a question. Based how you can already sing without training as an adult, is it possible for an experienced observer to predict how "well" you'll be able to sing, with good training and hard work?


Lets look at Shakira for example. She wanted to be a singer. Her high school choir teachers told her she sounded like a braying donkey. Yet she sells millions of songs. I personally think Phil Collins and Bob Dylan sing horribly. But people love them. So there is a difference between "Can anybody sing?" and "Will people like my voice when I sing?" The answer to the first is yes. With work and practice, anyone who can hear notes, can sing. The answer to the second one is maybe. The listening public is strange in what they like and it varies from time to time and place to place. Song choice is a big part. If you sing to your voice, you will do better.


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## Ian Dorsch (Oct 26, 2021)

Nice to see some fellow singers/voice teachers here! I agree with a lot of what's been said but I will add that after 20+ years of teaching I am less idealistic and optimistic than I used to be when asked this question. I absolutely agree that, barring some types of injury or disability, anyone can learn to sing. But for some folks it's going to be an extremely long and arduous road. Some might find that road sufficiently rewarding to continue the journey, some might not.

Re: the ability to match pitch - almost everyone with reasonably undamaged hearing can learn to do this. In most cases it's simply an issue of developing coordination, and any legit voice teacher will have strategies to help guide this. But again, if you can't match pitch and you want to learn to sing, you are going to have to put in a lot of work in order to make progress. Duncan mentions "constant effort" and in my experience that's really the thing - and it's not just physical effort. The voice as an instrument is your whole mind and body, and everyone has their own set of mental and emotional obstacles to overcome. That kind of work can be a revelation, but it takes some real tenacity, and a real willingness to be kind and patient with yourself.


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## TonalDynamics (Oct 26, 2021)

ResidentSmeagol said:


> No, there are definitely people who are born with the gift of musical capabilities. My girlfriend is a first call oboist who's played on tons of recording sessions and movie dates and with movie orchestras. She was virtually a virtuoso on the oboe from the beginning and flat out confided to me that she actually hates the oboe but she's lazy and she plays it because she can excel at it with no effort so she takes the path of least resistance even though she doesn't like the instrument.
> 
> I, on the other hand was not born with a gift of musical capabilities and had to work extremely hard. Eventually I was able to get to the point of being a first call session pianist and to finally get called for major label record dates and touring as a sideman with big pop acts but I had to be willing to put in 10x the effort to get there.
> 
> ...


In my experience, most people aren't willing to do what it takes to learn a new skill period, including those people that you know who always say, "I wish I could play the guitar/piano/violin", or "I wish I could sing"

Then you ask "Well, have you tried lessons of any kind with said instrument/music?"

The answer is always invariably no 

Developing skills, let alone virtuosity takes time and commitment, and it turns out that most of us just aren't that committed.


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## Trash Panda (Oct 26, 2021)

bill5 said:


> You and those other people are wrong. Sorry. Mozart comes to mind as an obvious example and there are truckloads more. People are born with a wide variety of abilities of all kinds, musically included. Some have little, some have a lot, again many in betweens.


I think both extremes are wrong here. This type of thing requires a bit of a shift in thinking, not only for singing, but any skill.

Are some people born with a more innate talent for *insert any skill here*? Yes.

How that talent manifests can have a HUGE amount of variation.

In some, it means they can more easily pick up the skill with less teaching/practice, but the ceiling on their potential could range anywhere from moderate to amazing.

In others, they may not pick things up as naturally, but their level of potential with the right education and practice could be higher than the individual who grasped the initial skill more easily.

Then you have the rare combination of talent where they pick up on the skill naturally and with the right education/practice are capable of the highest levels of potential with that skill.

Life isn't so black and white as nature or nurture. There's a huge scale of grey and a lot of overlap in the two extremes.


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## TonalDynamics (Oct 26, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> I think both extremes are wrong here. This type of thing requires a bit of a shift in thinking, not only for singing, but any skill.
> 
> Are some people born with a more innate talent for *insert any skill here*? Yes.
> 
> ...


It gets cloudy for sure (despite the fact that talent undeniably accounts for much)

Take Mozart for example, obviously a musical genius, but his musical training was second to _none _the world over, from the time he was 3-4 years old.

He and his father Leopold were at least as much 'Master and Apprentice' as they were father and son, but the man ensured above all else, that his son was 'well-trained'.

The argument about how far you should or shouldn't push your kids to excel is another discussion, but we can't pretend it didn't play a critical role in Wolfgang's career/musical history


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## Double Helix (Oct 26, 2021)

TonalDynamics said:


> Take Mozart for example, obviously a musical genius, but his musical training was second to _none _the world over, from the time he was 3-4 years old.
> 
> He and his father Leopold were at least as much 'Master and Apprentice' as they were father and son, but the man ensured above all else, that his son was 'well-trained'.


Nature/Nurture?
Perhaps the genius of Mozart truly was "once-in-a-generation (or-century)," but I doubt that he would have blossomed as the keyboard super-virtuoso and composer if Leopold had been a wheelwright or a candlestick maker.
Wolgang's older sister, Maria-Anna (Nannerl), was likely as gifted (if not more so), but she was "a girl."


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## ResidentSmeagol (Oct 26, 2021)

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Good point but is it fair to compare the piano and the Oboe? I'm guessing there's a lot more pianist on the market than oboist and the piano has got to be harder to master no? Just guessing.


You should talk to oboists at some point about making their own reeds. Even if the piano was 100x harder to master, it's worth it for me to never have to make my own reeds.


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Oct 26, 2021)

ResidentSmeagol said:


> You should talk to oboists at some point about making their own reeds. Even if the piano was 100x harder to master, it's worth it for me to never have to make my own reeds.


haha! i remember hearing something like that now. I bet it sucks.


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## TonalDynamics (Oct 26, 2021)

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> haha! i remember hearing something like that now. I bet it sucks.





ResidentSmeagol said:


> You should talk to oboists at some point about making their own reeds. Even if the piano was 100x harder to master, it's worth it for me to never have to make my own reeds.


And Jedi have to make their own lightsabers.

#firstworldproblems


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