# Which Sub for low low low low



## caseyjames (Sep 14, 2011)

Hi,

I've been bitten several times recently by sub frequencies that ended up dominating my mix, requiring the music at large to be turned way down to compensate at the mixing stage (where dialog and sfx are mixed with my 2 track stem). 

I currently use an old pair of Event 20/20 with a Hafler Pro2400 amp. I have 18 bass traps 2"703+2"rockwool in a 25'x12' room (though Im moving soon)

What Subwoofer do you all recommend? I am definitely dealing with sub 20hz frequencies and electronic material if that is important. Eventually I plan to upgrade the 20/20's but I don't think any monitors in my price range are going to handle these frequencies anyway and the sub is the priority.

Any tips would be greatly appreciated. My budget is low, but if there is a really good reason to step up to a specific model I'm open to any suggestions.

Thanks,
Casey


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 14, 2011)

We've had arguments about this in the past, but in my opinion the sub itself doesn't make a whole lot of difference, because anything below about 80Hz is pretty much rumble; what matters is the crossover going to the sub.

By the way I don't think you really mean frequencies below 20Hz, and if you have stuff going on that low then you'd be better off rolling it off! Subs usually cross over at either 120Hz or 80Hz in some cases (such as my Blue Sky System Ones, in fact maybe that's the only one?).


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## caseyjames (Sep 14, 2011)

When you say "doesn't make a whole lot of difference" do you mean the brand/model isn't critical with the exception of the crossover, which is built in right? If thats the case are there one or two that you can rattle off so I can get this puppy shipping?

The rumbling is part of what I'm interested in. The music I make has a lot of noise and weird sounds as well as the orchestral and electronic elements. Its not the bass notes that are causing the problem so much as the sound design elements that need to be sculpted for emotional and physical impact. Though you may be right about below 20 not mattering much, if those sorts of thundery unsettling elements are indeed above that point.


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## re-peat (Sep 14, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Sep 15 said:


> (...) because anything below about 80Hz is pretty much rumble; what matters is the crossover going to the sub (...)


Rumble it all may be, but there is a distinct difference between a 40Hz, a 60Hz or a 80Hz rumble. In combination with (and depending on) whatever's happening higher up, one of these 'rumbles' may provide the perfect bass foundation while another may simply ruin the entire low-end. (I wasn't aware of this until I started monitoring through the combination of two EMES Blacks with the EMES AmberHR as sub.) For some pieces, 40Hz may be the best-sounding sub-bass to build your mix on, while for other pieces, 70Hz may be the sub area that works best. 
Only to say that there actually is a difference.

Also, if you're working with a sub, I find it quite useful to carefully look at your mix (or at least at those tracks that provide the low end) through an high-res spectrum analyser (such as the one found in the DMG EQuality, for instance), because it allows you to find out which 'rumble frequencies' work and which ones only cause trouble.

A good spectrum analyser, by the way (and unrelated to this thread), is also rather useful to help clean up the low-end debris that's found in an awful lot of sample libraries.

_


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## lux (Sep 15, 2011)

Indeed, I work a lot in the 40-80 register to shape the bass. This goes expecially with electronica, dance, pop but also for modern hybrid cinematic sound.


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## Dietz (Sep 15, 2011)

lux @ Thu Sep 15 said:


> Indeed, I work a lot in the 40-80 register to shape the bass. This goes expecially with electronica, dance, pop but also for modern hybrid cinematic sound.



+1 (big one)


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## jamwerks (Sep 15, 2011)

Are you sure that you're talking about sub 20Hz? >8o 

The problem is, no system (film, tv, other can reproduce that low (to say nothing of car stereos!). Some acoustic instruments go down to 27.5hz, low A on the piano (contrebasson) but for electronica, I'd personally forget about sub 35hz.

I have a 2.1 system: Adam S2a's & a Sub 10 with the cross-over set at 80hz. Seems to work well!


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 15, 2011)

Furthermore, 20Hz is the threshold of human hearing.
Humans can't hear below that point (your dog can)

I usually filter out frequencies below 30Hz to avoid the type of issues that you are describing...


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## caseyjames (Sep 15, 2011)

The idea is it is sound to be felt. Below 20 can be felt. It is not 15hz alone, it is 15hz as a foundation below everything else.

I know car subs can do 10hz. I don't really know what theater systems do. Its very possible that a well equipped theater doesn't go that low, i don't know, but these aren't musical concerns, tonal sounds, or sounds coming from instruments or synths. I'm interested in the low rumbles that add a subtle psychological suspense to a scene.

This mix that is due in 3 1/2 hours is going to the theater, with the low frequencies unchecked.

Is there a really good reason to go for the ADAM sub at $1000ish? I was aiming around $400-600. I know, the get what you pay for spiel, but is there a tangible reason why something in that range would be a mistake? Is there anything specific in that range that is exceptional?


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## germancomponist (Sep 15, 2011)

Patrick de Caumette @ Thu Sep 15 said:


> Furthermore, 20Hz is the threshold of human hearing.
> Humans can't hear below that point (your dog can)
> 
> I usually filter out frequencies below 30Hz to avoid the type of issues that you are describing...



+1

I also do this mostly. 

These deep frequencies need the most power in your tracks. As I posted in other threads, listen to this file and look how your display shows it in your mixer:

http://www.box.net/shared/uu0bnsr7l6


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## MacQ (Sep 15, 2011)

I tried more subs than you can shake a stick at (including everything in your budget range I could find, and the ADAM), and unfortunately even the higher-end stuff doesn't really handle bass all that well at anything other than a whisper. I ended up with a Mackie HRS150, which is seriously bad-ass, though I'm with the rest of the guys here in suggesting that sub-20Hz is a waste of headroom. Even sub-30Hz, in my opinion. Often you're trading bass energy for the aggressiveness of your limiter, and you can be much more aggressive with a bass roll-off.

If you're still keen on it, I'd suggest going the P.A. powered-sub route. That is, subs that you'd find in a club or live venue setting, and buying a nice cross-over to use with it. Detail isn't the name of the game here, what you're most concerned with is level, so this will help you here. Even if it's an "in/out" switch just to check it.

The other alternative used by thousands of people + their dog is to use a really nice analyzer to check what those frequencies are doing. Really all you're looking for is "relative to the rest of the mix" levels, and a software RTA can help you figure that stuff out visually.

Bass and lead vocal are the hardest things to mix, so you're not alone in this game. But yeah, an analyzer should be able to point out what's going on in your mix. As always, though, A/B the shit out of your mix with all kinds of "similar" material. Material that you determine to be well mastered. That's the fastest way to get there.

~Stu


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 15, 2011)

caseyjames @ Thu Sep 15 said:


> The idea is it is sound to be felt. Below 20 can be felt. It is not 15hz alone, it is 15hz as a foundation below everything else.
> 
> I know car subs can do 10hz. I don't really know what theater systems do. Its very possible that a well equipped theater doesn't go that low, i don't know, but these aren't musical concerns, tonal sounds, or sounds coming from instruments or synths. I'm interested in the low rumbles that add a subtle psychological suspense to a scene.
> 
> ...



Well, the reason why you are getting into trouble at the final mix stage maybe due to the fact that you are adding those 15Hz frequencies (or not getting rid off them) 
Frequencies between 20Hz to 40 Hz will give you plenty of "rumble", but remember that there is a purpose to sound design, and you maybe stepping all over those tracks with music tracks that are over-emphasized in a frequency range that should be left out of the way...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 15, 2011)

Guys, I readily admit to being a total idiot - but NOT to saying that there's no difference between the frequencies down there. Of course there is!

My point is that any decent subwoofer will do the job of reproducing those frequencies; what matters far more than the sub is how it's integrated into your system, and that comes down to how it crosses over.

A friend of mine - a ridiculously good engineer with album recording and mixing credits from here to the moon - added an $89 sub from Costco (I'm not kidding!) to his NS-10s. It sounds just great. I was really surprised.

Now, some of that is luck - the roll-offs just lined up well - and some of that is probably that NS-10s are what they are (and I can argue both for and against with equal conviction). But the point is that the right question to ask is how to make a sub work with your speakers.

So my answer is No, it's not worth spending $1000 for an Adam sub to mate with some Event 20/20s. It's probably worth spending that to mate with Adam speakers *because they're designed to work with them*.

***

One other opinion that I've posted before: even really well integrated subs - such as the one that is part and parcel of my Blue Sky System One system - are a compromise. And when they're not well integrated, I and many other people don't like subs; they're still an important reference (it beats putting your hands on the cones to feel for sound beneath the LF cutoff of your speakers), but they sound very wrong.

Actually I'd turn that around and say that the small speakers we all work on have some compromises. That's why I like having big speakers too (UREI 809A, warts and all); the bass just sounds overwhelmingly right coming from those big boxes; small boxes + subs just can't do that. I think it's the acoustic compression inherent to small boxes, but that's just conjecture.

But small speakers are much better for detail and imaging, so I use them more than the big ones.


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## germancomponist (Sep 15, 2011)

.... and, especially when it comes to this deepest frequencies, a best treated room is a must!


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## jamwerks (Sep 15, 2011)

Well you get what you pay for. For 89$, the filters can't sound like much, which will then make the NS-10 sound like they came from Costco also.

Low distortion capability is apparently what drives the cost up in a sub. When you hear people talk about a "tight bass", that probably comes from low distortion, and low distortion comes from $$$$


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## germancomponist (Sep 15, 2011)

jamwerks @ Thu Sep 15 said:


> ... and low distortion comes from $$$$


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 15, 2011)

jamwerks, I admitted to being an idiot but I didn't admit to having lousy ears.  The "filter" on the NS-10s is their natural roll-off, and I wouldn't have posted that the set-up sounded good if it sounded like crap.

Frankly I have a problem with people posting that other people didn't hear what they heard. A lot of arguments start over that; I've done enough listening over the years to know that there are a lot of things in audio that by all rights *shouldn't* sound the way they do.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that Casey buy the Costco sub, just saying that....have I mentioned that the sub's integration into the system is the most important factor?

And yes, among other things you're paying for low distortion, and that often has to do with higher power output (i.e. amp headroom). You don't need a whole lot for monitoring set-ups (even though those freqs are the ones that require the most power to reproduce).

Tight bass has to do with a lot more than just low distortion, it has to do with how the bass is controlled. There's the amp damping factor spec, but that's just one thing; I'd have to think more about what causes the same mix to sound like the bass is tighter on one system than another. Amp distortion is heard more in higher frequencies, I think.

In any case, I honestly believe that where you place the sub - and has Gunther says, how the room itself sounds - has at least as much to do with how well it performs as how good/expensive it is. And I'm not one of those people who argues that room treatment is more important than speakers, because it isn't.


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## burp182 (Sep 15, 2011)

The positioning of the sub may well be the MOST important factor in the success or failure of the system. Bass energy excites the architecture of a room in a way that midrange and high frequencies can not. The resonances faulty positioning can introduce are almost beyond what room tuning can compensate for. 
Here is an almost foolproof method of finding a solid position for your sub: run the signal through the crossover (so the mains have the bottom frequencies shaved off), place the sub at your normal listening position and play source music with solid and well defined bass notes. Having silence in the bass track is equally important as the notes. DO NOT have the other speakers playing at this time - only the sub. Walk around the perimeter of the room listening carefully to the character of the bass sound. Check everywhere, not just the obvious positions. Dead center between the speakers is rarely where the sub will end up. Listen for the bass to sound the least wrong - you'll be surprised at the differences you will hear as you move. When you find the best spot, put the sub there and go to your listening position. Have someone rotate the sub 90 degrees at a time while you listen to the sub alone. Wherever it ends up in the rotation sounding the best is the right position, no matter how counterintuitive it seems. Then turn on the main speakers and balance the sub against them. Turn the sub slightly lower in volume than you think is correct. That's usually the right volume.
This method is shockingly effective. I did this for a client to get them up and running before the room tuner could make it out to his studio. After the $700 tuning, the sub was moved three inches. Pretty good guess.
One more thing - the filters in digital converters have a brick wall at 20hz. There is no info below that point on a CD. The punch you're looking for happens well above that. Don't waste time and money plumbing the 10-15hz region.


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## Brian Ralston (Sep 15, 2011)

Let me introduce you guys to SVSubwoofers. You will not be disappointed.

http://www.svsound.com

Their original cylander subs are jaw dropping in performance. Very flat response (they will go from an "is it even on?" to an "Oh my god!" state). 

I don't have it in my studio because I have a Blue Sky System One....but I have this in my home theater. 

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl.cfm

Best thing I ever added to my home theater system next to HDTV.


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## jamwerks (Sep 15, 2011)

Nick I didn't mean to insinuate anything about your ears or other. 

I'm not sure how all Sub setups work. In the Adam, the filters are in the sub, not in the satellites. The stereo out of the interface goes to the Sub 10, to which are then connected the S2a's.


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## germancomponist (Sep 15, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Sep 15 said:


> And I'm not one of those people who argues that room treatment is more important than speakers, because it isn't.



Nick, it is!

I am building my new studio. Last week we did some tests, and believe me or not: With only my old Yamaha NS 10m, the sound is absolutely awesome. I didn`t know that only these little speakers can sound sooooo good, also when it comes to these low frequencies. 

The room is the most important thing! o-[][]-o 

0oD


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## caseyjames (Sep 15, 2011)

I really appreciate all the tips. Monitors shopping seems to inhabit its own little circle of hell. They really don't make it easy.

I don't plan on keeping the 20/20's all that long. Its been almost 10 years with them and I make my living composing, its kinda ridiculous. I was just hoping to get a sub as a quick fix for the score I just turned in and another show that's due Sunday. I can see that approach isn't going to work as pairing is key. Of course the room is a problem too because I plan on moving as soon as I find a place I like.

I'm going through the archive here and on gearslutz to see what the best value is for monitors and a sub for under $2000 all in.... So far it seems like for $7200 I would be tremendously happy with some Focal Professional SM9's 

Ohhhh the pain.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 15, 2011)

Is not! Is not!

It's important, though.

jamwerks, the filter in the Blue Sky system is the same - it's in the sub (although I'm using the one in the monitor controller instead). In the Costco one it's just "plug it in"; I don't know whether it even has a filter!


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## germancomponist (Sep 15, 2011)

Nick, think about this:

You are in a dark room and in the left and right corners there are little lights shining. Ok, you can see them very clearly. Now think about the situation, that someone had installed many many reflectors. What do you see now? 

You can buy the most expensive lights, but...... ?!

Yes, no?


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## germancomponist (Sep 15, 2011)

Another example in the other direction: 
You can use the most expensive mics for recording a library. But, if the stage has not a good sound, your recordings will never have a good sound.... . Look at all the discussions about the recording stages where the last brass libs were recorded....?!


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## jamwerks (Sep 15, 2011)

Hard to draw the line on which is the most important (treatment vs Monitors).

A recent experience of mine: a friend has a professional room (dimensions, treatment, placement, etc) with some 1030's in it, that sound aweeeesome! much better than my S2a's in my not-so-treated space. :shock:


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## Mike Greene (Sep 15, 2011)

germancomponist @ Thu Sep 15 said:


> With only my old Yamaha NS 10m, the sound is absolutely awesome.


If the NS10's are sounding good, then there's something wrong with your room.

:mrgreen:


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## Mike Greene (Sep 15, 2011)

germancomponist @ Thu Sep 15 said:


> You can use the most expensive mics for recording a library. But, if the stage has not a good sound, your recordings will never have a good sound.... . Look at all the discussions about the recording stages where the last brass libs were recorded....?!


But those are stages, not control rooms. On a stage, the sound of the room is indeed very important. But you wouldn't want to mix there.

You want to mix in a control room, which adds little (ideally none) sound of it's own to the equation. Unless a room has major problems (as opposed to just needing to be tweaked a bit,) even your average bedroom isn't going to add much to the sound.


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## caseyjames (Sep 15, 2011)

I built 18 4" Bass traps for $400... The speakers I'm looking at are about $2000 and are on the cheap end. It seems to me that a reasonable amount of treatment is a moot point. I don't see how it matters which is more important. Aren't we expected to do both?

So now that we're securely off topic....

If you had $2000 to spend on monitors and a sub what would you run out and buy shopping spree style. I know listening is the key, but I'd like to know what you all are pining after (for your cayman island summer home studio, as you already have the $7200 lovelies in your mega studios).


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## José Herring (Sep 15, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Thu Sep 15 said:


> germancomponist @ Thu Sep 15 said:
> 
> 
> > With only my old Yamaha NS 10m, the sound is absolutely awesome.
> ...



LOL! So true.


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## Dan Mott (Sep 15, 2011)

I have my little ADAM A5 monitors and a FOSTEX PMO sub, a couple of bass traps (will be getting more since you can't go wrong with alot of bass traps). I have it all setup the way I want and my low end translates quite well in the outside world. I just like how I can monitor those lows and it sounds great too. I also like how there's none of that low end coming our from the ADAMs ports because for me it's always sounded muddy when it comes from those, but with the sub it's so nice.


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## caseyjames (Sep 15, 2011)

Do you suppose that in a setup with a sub, that the smaller mid woofer on the a5x would be better at representing the frequencies that its left to cover than a larger cone?

Wishful thinking I suppose, but it seems reasonable.


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## Dan Mott (Sep 15, 2011)

caseyjames @ Fri Sep 16 said:


> Do you suppose that in a setup with a sub, that the smaller mid woofer on the a5x would be better at representing the frequencies that its left to cover than a larger cone?
> 
> Wishful thinking I suppose, but it seems reasonable.



Hmm. Not sure, but I have a gut feeling that it would be better to have a smaller speaker, plus a sub because it wouldn't make sense to sit infront of 8" speakers and an 8 or 10 inch sub, pumping out bass. You would be wasting your money because the larger cone wouldn't matter at all. 

I bought the sub so I could buy a small speaker. I like mixing on smaller speakers because I find that I can listen for longer periods of time without ear fatigue and many listeners are using small speakers anyway. I'm actually thinking of getting those ADAM A3x monitors soon for an upgrade and to go even smaller. Just my personal tastes. I also bought a sub so that if I ever wanted to change speakers for some reason in the future, I would be paying cheaper because the smaller the speaker, the lower in price it is. I just love the fact that I have a really small speaker, and my extension is the sub. Makes more sense to me.

I've sat infront of 8 inch to 10 inch speakers before and the bass response always sounded unnatural to me. It's not like the bass you hear in cars, or at a club, even at your friend's house on their little computer system that comes with a little sub (logitec stuff). I just hate the fact that the bass is coming from a port that's sitting right infront of me on my desk, not to mention it doesn't sound as defined as having a sub to represent the REAL lows. Since having a sub I have had better results with my low end. I find it doesn't blow systems out of the water because I have controlled it on the sub in my room. Also, you have the option to place the sub anywhere in the room, where as with bass just coming from the ports of your speakers, you cannot and sometimes you have little options depending on how your room is shaped and layed out. Kinda cool


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 15, 2011)

Gunther, Mike is right (for once!). Ears and mics are two different things. The mic isn't attached to your brain.

Now, I'm not saying that a good room isn't really important - although a room in which someone "bought room treatment" without any rhyme or reason is most likely a lot worse than if they'd just left it alone! - but I am saying that I'll take great speakers in a merely serviceable room way before lousy speakers in any room. The other thing is that it takes less than one might think to make a room perfectly serviceable.

Dan-Jay, have you compared the sound to a 12" or larger speaker in a big box?

BTW the my Blue Skys are 6.5" sats with 12" sub.


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## Dan Mott (Sep 15, 2011)

*Dan-Jay, have you compared the sound to a 12" or larger speaker in a big box?*


Yes I have actually.

At my old work place, they had a pair of 12 inch Tannoys in their studio and I still didn't like the bass response. You could hear it, but it just didn't sound 'real' to me. The main reason is that as I said, I don't like to sit infront of bass that's coming from the port of the speaker. It's just my opinion. Others may think differently. I personally wouldn't ever want to sit infront of 12 inch speakers anyway..... TOOOO BIGGGGG


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## burp182 (Sep 16, 2011)

If you're looking for club-style bass, you generally won't get it from a system that isn't a soffit mounted dual 15 like the classic Augspurger. And even those don't have the 30-50hz thump of a club sub system. A dedicated LF driver in a properly designed and sized box with no concerns about mid bass performance does a better job down low and a particularly better job comparatively as levels rise.

Use a sub. Any decent one crossed over and placed properly will get you close to what you're looking for. The better the sub, the better the result.


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## germancomponist (Sep 16, 2011)

I think it would be great if John Rodd would chime in here.... . 

So far as I know it is a dream to listen to music in his well treated room.... .


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 16, 2011)

Actually, burp, you can get some of that - just at a lower level - in a project studio without soffit-mounting. I get plenty of kick in the chest from my UREI 809As. They don't do much at 30, but around 40-50 they're good.

Now, they're certainly not the monitors I'd choose if price were no object. I bought them because I heard and liked Mike Greene's larger 813s (which are 15" + passive 15 and he does have them soffit-mounted) and then won a lowball bid on eBay. But I'm embarrassed to say that I really like the 809As even though they're not the best in the world.

Dan-jay, the Tannoys are a special case. But I have a different opinion about bass from yours - which is why God created more than one speaker system: people have different taste.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 16, 2011)

Guhther, it's a joy to listen to music in my somewhat treated room too.

Actually, it's a joy to listen to music in ANY room. Or even an iPod. 

But as I keep saying, it takes less than one might think to make a room sound very good. Just deaden the front and trap bass in the right places, and you'll have a totally serviceable room.


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## germancomponist (Sep 16, 2011)

If it would be so easy, why do some people spend thousends of dollars for their room treatment? 

I for myself only trust my ears, ever did and always will. And I only can repeat my statement: "The room is the most important thing"! 

But, my friend, I am sure we will not start a fight about this!  

Your and my opinion and experience...., so what?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 16, 2011)

It's not a fight, it's a discussion. I still love you even if you disagree with me. 

For recording live sources (especially if you're recording from any distance) it's definitely the most important thing. No question - the room is the sound.

For monitoring it's a very important thing and I believe in it 100% - and have stuff up in my room - but as I said: the ears compensate for a lot of problems with a room, while they can only adjust to but not compensate for bad speakers.

That's what makes microphones and ears so different from one another: the microphone isn't a brain. Psychoacoustics.

People spend thousands of dollars on room treatment because they're designing a certain style of room that requires that (assuming they haven't been sold a bunch of nonsense). If you're going to make sure the room is as close to flat as possible and use things like ASC Tube Traps and soak everything up everywhere, of course it's going to cost a lot of money. And of course it's going to cost you to make sure the room is the right ratio, and so on - even if you don't call in the architects and just do other things.

I've posted here before: you can make pretty much any room workable for monitoring - not ideal, workable - 95% by soaking up excess reverb at the front of the room with broadband absorption. And I don't want to open up this one again, but ideally you'd have flat reflective sides. If you want, you can use diffusion at the rear (I have bookshelves).

Of course a square room will still have problems, and absorption at the front won't solve everything. But it's all you need to do to make a workable room in all but the most extreme cases.

Edit: note that bass trapping is part of broadband absorption, although bass trapping can be more complicated depending on how you approach it (Helmholtz resonators, etc.).


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## John Rodd (Sep 16, 2011)

hi all

a short reply..... short on time

i am a firm believer of NOT using subs for the main speakers as it never sounds right.....

generally: make the acoustics as good as possible, then but the biggest best speakers you can.

I picked ATC 150 active. 

re - the comment "flat reflective sides" ..... i totally disagree. You dont want any parallel *reflective* surfaces in a listening environment, whatsoever, if possible.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 16, 2011)

That (non-parallel walls) is a different approach that also works if you can build your walls from scratch, but in standard rooms side reflections actually help the imaging. The "reflection-free zone" is all wrong - it just sticks a lowpass filter in the sides and screws up the room response (or to be exact, the response of the first reflections from the speakers).


http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/nick_ba ... interview/


I knew the worm can would open again.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 16, 2011)

One other point, which I've made here before: for you to hear comb filtering - which is the usual argument for not having parallel reflective surfaces - the reflections have to be coming from the same angle as the "direct sound" (direct in quotes because actually you don't hear speakers as direct sound). That means the front wall behind the speakers.


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## burp182 (Sep 19, 2011)

Nick, I beg to differ on the solid 50hz response of the 809A. While the original spec shows a -3db point of 50 hz, that's for soffit mounting. In the free field, they're going downhill fast at 70. I'd be inclined to say you're hearing more from doubling and cabinet resonance down low than you're actually getting from the driver. And certainly the authority and control the OP seems to be looking for will drop drastically as level increases.
So even a 12" driver is no guarantee of big low end performance in any cabinet. And the temptation to port for increased thump in a cabinet like that is hard to resist. The Klipsch Heresy is an example of that. The current JBL 6332 does a pretty decent job of balancing all the demands. Perhaps they'd be worth a listen if the OP doesn't want to dive into sub land.


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## germancomponist (Sep 19, 2011)

I am with John Rodd. I never liked subwoofers. 

A well treated room and big speakers, thats it! Nick, so far as I know you too are a big friend of big speakers?! 

Yeah, I said that I didn`t know that my old Yamaha NS 10m can sound so good in my new studio, but sure, these little speakers arn`t my main speakers anymore. But when I think back, I did tons of radio spots only on these NS 10m, and they all sounded great.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 19, 2011)

I am a friend of big speakers, yes. But I do like the Blue Sky System One, which uses a subwoofer - with all the qualifications I posted earlier.

John, the 809As are a tangent to the original post; I wasn't recommending them to him. And of course 12" doesn't guarantee low frequency response.

But I can tell you 100% that I hear 50Hz clear as day on these speakers without octave doubling and crap. It's down a little, but it's very much there, in fact there's some response at 30Hz and even trace elements at 25Hz. (You can't really hear the 30Hz rumble in "Skater Boi," which is very clear on the Blue Skys, however - I do agree that sub response is definitely an issue with the 809As.)

I just double-checked with a sine oscillator, and you can hear very clearly where the octave-doubling crap starts to take over (especially if you raise the level). They're not soffit mounted in my room, but the "being at the same plane as the front wall" aspect of soffit mounting is simulated by the way they're mounted.

Note that they way they're mounted is far from ideal - my room sounds good but the way the 809As are mounted is a major compromise. You can't quite see the perspective clearly in the following pic - the Plasma monitor is about 3-1/2' behind the computer monitor, and it's just in front of the plane between the bit speakers (its mounting stand is hanging from the ceiling from the same wooden rafter behind the plaster ceiling that the UREIs' stands are, if that makes it any clearer).

Quick and dirty iPhone snapshot:

http://gallery.me.com/virtualinstrument ... olor=black

Also worth mentioning: the Blue Sky sats are pointed in, so the big absorptive baffles on the sides don't affect them. Acoustics is usually a compromise in project studios that weren't built from scratch to be studios; ideally I'd have the baffles at the front of the room, but there's a window there and I'm not going to cover that up.


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## caseyjames (Sep 19, 2011)

Ok, I need a reality check.

So how are you folks avoiding the sub woofer? Do the more expensive speakers really go much lower than the cheapo largish Event 20/20's? Is loading really going to get speakers not much larger than the 20/20s to reveal all the low end that has been reaping havok on my mixes?

Are the folks that are poo pooing mixing with a sub working with music other than classical or rock where tradition doesn't require those ranges to represented in anything other than overtones?

Currently Im thinking about getting the Focal CMS 65's with a CMS sub and then maybe adding a second sub to cover the low end in stereo sometime in the future whe I can afford it, on the recommendation of Bob Hodas, after watching his one hour interview on Pensados Place and reading up on his literature.
0
That setup is about $2500 -- the cost of one ADAM s2x speaker. For $5000 are the adam s2x's going to solve the low end mix problems that are the issue in electronic synthetic low end?

Is the suggestion of getting large speakers as a solution to my specific low end issue keeping in mind a budget that is far less than $5000?

Is the suggesting of getting the largest speakers I can, a reiteration of a personal mantra or is it an actual practical solution to the problem I'm trying to solve in the budget that I have to work with?

I am in no way interested in hearing that lowend isn't important as most people are listening through speakers that can't reproduce low frequencies. I am looking to solve an actual problem where those frequencies are DEFINITELY being heard by my clients at the mixing stage on uber expensive mains. My clients are what counts -- theater listening is what counts. I could care less if a soccer mom is or is not hearing the sub frequencies. This is biting me professionally. I wan't to solve it, if I can, within my means.

I would really appreciate someone with a sympathetic view of modern music giving me a hand with this within the context that I'm looking at.


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## gsilbers (Sep 19, 2011)

8inch woofers on regular studio speakers should do fine. 

the problem, which is present on most modern music is that , the same as Dance music clubs, its that the venue uses huge sub woofer systems. 
powerful as theatre subs. 
its not the quality of speakers but that your mix will go through a crossover to split the low end signal and send it to a sub woofer that its being fed a lot of watts to push a lot of air. 

so the same mix you did in a studio is going to get over exaggerated in the theaters and clubs. 

Best way is to get comfy with what you can have. being by getting a genelec sub or Big adam speakers. then going back and forth between your system and a big stage. 
or buying commercial CDs that have huge low end and listen to it on your speakers so you get an idea of when its too much or not enough. Bass management is not easy at all. 

I heard those adams and I could swear there was a sub in in the room. they went LOWWWW . too much imo. 

there is also some nice forum talk at gearslutz about this topic.


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## whinecellar (Sep 19, 2011)

Casey, I'll take the bait & sympathize with you: I'd be utterly lost without my sub rig, but let me qualify that statement:

1. My main monitors are ADAM A7's and are useless for anything remotely close to real low end.

2. My sub rig is an NHT B-20 system which I believe is discontinued but happens to mate perfectly with the A7's. With proper placement & tweaking of the sub amp (phase & crossover settings), the B-20 rig can work well with lots of smaller nearfields. My system response is relatively flat at my mix position, with no audible weirdness at the crossover freq. More importantly it sounds freakin' awesome and has always translated perfectly: I get the tight, articulate mids & top from the ADAMs with the serious LF heft from the subs. I love it.

3. My room is a crucial factor. I got really lucky with my design in tandem with my monitor system as a whole - I'm definitely in the "room is a huge factor" camp. Nick's right in that a good set of ears can overcome a lot, but when the room is right it can REALLY make things come to life.

I totally understand the reservations against subs; they are too easy to abuse & get wrong in many setups. However, with some care in setup they can be a crucial tool in getting the whole picture. If nothing else, it's so much more enjoyable to work in a full-bandwidth environment when you're doing modern film music! And you're right, it's also good to know you're not sending out any LF crud to your clients


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 19, 2011)

You don't need a second sub for stereo. The wavelengths are too large to be directional down there.

The reality check is that you should be able to add a sub and hear what's going on just fine. You don't need to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to get a workable monitoring set-up.


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## gsilbers (Sep 19, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Sep 19 said:


> You don't need a second sub for stereo. The wavelengths are too large to be directional down there.
> 
> The reality check is that you should be able to add a sub and hear what's going on just fine. You don't need to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to get a workable monitoring set-up.



+1


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## guydoingmusic (Sep 19, 2011)

I have the 20/20's but the powered version of what you have. I added Yamaha's HS10w http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/HS10W Works great and a great priced sub!!

Someone said earlier bass traps are the most important thing... well, actually, I think it's bass traps, positioning, and having a sub. All 3 of these combined will make a pleasant listening/monitoring experience. 2 out of 3 don't work in this case. IMO. 

But check out the sub above. See if it fits your needs. Hope this helps.

/brad


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## caseyjames (Sep 19, 2011)

Good to hear nay on the second sub bit. That low frequencies are omni directional has always been my understanding, this fellow has a fair bit of credibility. I'm perfectly happy to save the change.

The problem I have with my 8" event woofer is that I do over emphasize the low in the lowest octaves grotesquely -- a sub could hardly yield worse results. The bottom is simply not present in my monitors, so referencing a mix will serve no purpose in tailoring those frequencies. I cannot reference what I cannot hear. When I can I check my mix in the car but that back and forth is not at all practical with the kind of constant deadlines Im up against. I check the spectrometer to get into the ball park but that is still risky if one can't hear to confirm that in context the visual proportion is what is needed for the sonic experience.

I'm in the process of looking for a new place, so I'm hoping to get all of this sorted before I do so I can apply a methodical approach to speaker positioning and placement of my infestation of bass traps before all the furniture and wiring try to talk me out of moving them around.

I've had these 20/20's for almost 10 years... I bought them for $100 off a kid in the mail room at school. This trepidation is absurd, but for some reason I can never bring myself to pull the trigger on a decent monitoring setup. Now that I am, I'm feeling neurotic to the core about it.


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## Diffusor (Sep 20, 2011)

I have a Sub6 to go along with my Focal Solos. It sounds awesome. Positioning and getting the level and crossover set for the room is key to any sub, and of course you need adequate room treatment.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 20, 2011)

Casey, the Events 20/20s are very bright monitors with (like most in their class) not a lot of low end. I personally would buy an Event subwoofer to pair with them, or else I'd upgrade my monitors - keeping them as a known second reference if possible.


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## whinecellar (Sep 22, 2011)

Just picked up 8DIO's Hybrid Tools. If ever there were an argument for needing a sub, that library is the perfect example! If nothing else, it's a great way to get things moving in the morning if you're not a coffee drinker 

Seriously, if you're working with that kind of LF content - especially typical of trailers - you'll need to know what you're doing in that part of the spectrum. Again, subject to a proper install of course...


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## caseyjames (Sep 22, 2011)

The plot thickens.

My plan is to get the focals cms 65 and one cms sub. I'm holding off until I move into a new space, but I'm looking to move into a new space as soon as I can find something.

Right now I work in a 12'x25'x8' rectangular room in a bungalow house.

I'm thinking about either moving into another, similar maybe slightly larger room in a guest house, or a loft space.

For mix, would a loft with a larger space and higher ceilings out weigh the negative of all the concrete and windows? My understanding is that larger spaces are better for mixing but concrete emphasizes nodes.

I know it depends on the space, but time is a premium and it would be good to know if I should just rule out that kind of environment.


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## germancomponist (Sep 22, 2011)

whinecellar @ Thu Sep 22 said:


> Just picked up 8DIO's Hybrid Tools. If ever there were an argument for needing a sub, that library is the perfect example! If nothing else, it's a great way to get things moving in the morning if you're not a coffee drinker
> 
> Seriously, if you're working with that kind of LF content - especially typical of trailers - you'll need to know what you're doing in that part of the spectrum. Again, subject to a proper install of course...



In a well treated room, there is no need to use a sub.... . 

Lalala, no fight...., it is not worth it! 

o-[][]-o


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 22, 2011)

No fight, but most project studio-style nearfield monitors don't respond much below 60Hz at best. The well-treated room won't cure that.

When I was at Recording magazine, we used to get readers' tapes in to critique (it was a column). One of the most common problems was vocal pops and piano hammer thumps at maybe 55Hz. People didn't hear them because their speakers didn't respond that low.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 22, 2011)

I personally would love to have more space. My room sounds pretty good, but it's only about 10' x 18' x 8.


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## whinecellar (Sep 22, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Sep 22 said:


> most project studio-style nearfield monitors don't respond much below 60Hz at best. The well-treated room won't cure that.



Ditto - there's no getting around the rules of physics. If you want to experience real low end, you simply have to have monitors capable of delivering it. Unless you're fortunate enough to have something like Barefoot MicroMains or similar full-bandwidth near/midfields, you will need a sub - ideally a good one with ample headroom, not a flappy "home theater" cheapo. A good one is worth the investment if you're serious about accuracy, translation, etc.

Frankly with libraries like Hybrid Tools, you're just plain missing out on the fun otherwise. Playing with it today revealed some foundation cracks I need to get repaired


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## germancomponist (Sep 23, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Sep 23 said:


> No fight, but most project studio-style nearfield monitors don't respond much below 60Hz at best. The well-treated room won't cure that.



This for sure is true.


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