# 1. Can VEP be somehow an additional complication? 2. Can Slaves/Servers be an unnecessary complication?



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 14, 2022)

I don´t use VEP yet, but wonder if it does not require too much setup and some important change in my workflowP


I wonder with a slave (computer assitent) can be a problem somehow, even if it helps with RAM.

This opnion is shared in a video of a composer who said why two slaves are worse than a good computer alone (what looks obvious)... He said there is problems with depending on another hardware. Theoretically now you have two kids...no?

Considering OPUS, KONTAKT, VEP, and LOGIC PRO, this is many hours of learning, beyond practicing, and beyond learning composition or analising music. All this is wonderful. But: Just a reminder.

Anyway I i am sympathetic with buying VEP, and got the demo version. I use first use in a single computer, with two partitions. I also liked that they offer an orchestra included.

I would like to hear from your experience with VEP, and how did you get the most of samples and big arrangements without spending too much money in worse choices.


edit: this is the video


----------



## ed buller (Feb 14, 2022)

The beauty of VEP is that it stops your DAW from having such a huge memory footprint. Also if it crashes, just re-launch and VEP will reconnect. No waiting eons for all your samples to load. 

Another huge benefit is right now I'm going thru a big project from 6 years ago done on a different machine JUST in cubase. So for every f***ing session I load I have to tell Kontakt where the samples are !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

whereas: IF i had done this with VEP they wouldn't be a need 

best

e


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 14, 2022)

ed buller said:


> The beauty of VEP is that it stops your DAW from having such a huge memory footprint. Also if it crashes, just re-launch and VEP will reconnect. No waiting eons for all your samples to load.
> 
> Another huge benefit is right now I'm going thru a big project from 6 years ago done on a different machine JUST in cubase. So for every f***ing session I load I have to tell Kontakt where the samples are !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


cool


so does VEP practically never crash?


----------



## ed buller (Feb 14, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> cool
> 
> 
> so does VEP practically never crash?


eh !....well..........since you ask. 7 is a tad buggy. But they are on the case. 5 was a rock

e


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Feb 14, 2022)

My experience with VEP on _single machine_ has been it is not particularly useful to me over a disabled track template in Cubase or Logic. I didn’t notice CPU or stability benefits and is a bit of a hassle for workflow vs just having the instrument in the DAW. I also noticed from a template disk size perspective, it didn’t save me in that regard (could’ve been due to the amount of instances I used in VEP).


----------



## muziksculp (Feb 14, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> My experience with VEP on _single machine_ has been it is not particularly useful to me over a disabled track template in Cubase or Logic. I didn’t notice CPU or stability benefits and is a bit of a hassle for workflow vs just having the instrument in the DAW. I also noticed from a template disk size perspective, it didn’t save me in that regard (could’ve been due to the amount of instances I used in VEP).


Interestingly, When I load CineStrings Core Legato in my DAW, I get pops-n-clicks due to their old scripting codes, but when I load the same patch into VE-Pro 7 Locally on my PC, it plays without any of the pops-n-clicks issues. I'm sure that VE-Pro 7 does have some efficiency benefits when used locally with a DAW.


----------



## charlieclouser (Feb 14, 2022)

VEP starts to make a lot of sense when you're using lots of orchestral instruments in which you don't really change the front-panel settings on the UI very much (or at all). Then you can use Preserve mode (keeps all the instruments in place when changing songs in the DAW) as well as Disconnect mode (where the front panel settings from each instrument are NOT pushed back to the DAW and saved with each song).

In this Preserve + Disconnect mode, a VEPro setup acts almost like a rack of hardware synth modules like Roland JV-1080 or whatever - if you change the front panel settings on the slave to suit song A, then load song B and change some settings to suit THAT song, when you go back to song A the settings will still be the ones from song B.

Many composers actually want things to work that way - it does keep things simple. But it basically means that once you set up your VEPro template, you keep your filthy hands off the thing! Or else you risk messing up some settings that previous songs might need.

The main advantage to Preserve+Disconnect mode is that loading and saving songs in your DAW is very quick and the file sizes are much smaller. When in Connected mode, every time you save a song in your DAW, the DAW will "poll" any VEPro instances that are in Connected mode and request a snapshot of their front-panel settings, and then include them in the saved DAW file. Likewise, when you load a song in your DAW, all of those settings will be "pushed" downstream to all VEPro instances that are in Connected mode. This lets each song have unique settings for all of the knobs etc. on the front panels of all your slave instruments, but slows things down and makes your DAW files larger.

You can decide on a per-instance basis whether a VEPro instance is in Connected or Disconnected mode however.

If you work with a lot of synth or sound-design style instruments then you probably want them to be in Connected mode, so that each DAW project can poll + push the unique knob settings for each song as you work. Some folks like to keep those instruments inside the DAW itself, since instruments inside a DAW are essentially always working in Connected mode.

But if the idea of having a huge stack of set-and-forget orchestral instruments that don't need to un-load and re-load each time you switch songs in your DAW is appealing, then VEPro is amazing.

You can also run VEPro on the same computer as your DAW (usually referred to as "running VEPro locally") and this still offers many of the same workflow advantages as having it on a separate slave computer, minus the extra CPU and disc speed you get from having it on a separate machine. Of course things get much simpler when doing it this way, as you don't have to install and authorize all your plugins and libraries on a separate machine - and of course it's much cheaper, hardware wise!

As others have mentioned, recently many DAWs have included a "load unused tracks as disabled" function, and / or a toggle to disable individual instruments. This lets you build gigantic templates entirely inside the DAW, and any empty tracks don't actually load the instrument plugin or its samples until you use them / need them. So that is a nice compromise. But the DAW project file sizes do get larger than they are when using VEPro in Disconnected mode, since the instrument settings for even the disabled slots ARE saved with the DAW project. However loading and saving is still snappier than a VEPro setup running in Connected mode.

Even though I use Logic with the "load unused tracks as disabled" function enabled, I still occasionally use VEPro (running locally) so that I can have a big array of various heavy Kontakt instruments that I know I want to use on most of the cues in a project. I then run VEPro in Preserve + Disconnected mode, and treat it as if it were a rack-mounted hardware sampler that has a bunch of sounds laid out on different MIDI channels, but I make sure not to change anything on the front panel of VEPro or the individual instruments as I switch between songs in my DAW. Most of the time this does give me better CPU + disc performance than hosting all of those Kontakt instruments inside Logic, and I can leave them all enabled and available just in case I want to use them, without taxing Logic unnecessarily.

---- EDIT ---- 

I used "Connected" and "Disconnected" when the correct terminology is "Coupled" and "Decoupled". But you know what I meant.


----------



## jbuhler (Feb 14, 2022)

VEP and a sample server is an additional complication. You have a lot of set up costs making sure everything is routed correctly. You have a second (or third or fourth) computer that needs attending to and where things can go wrong. So some real downsides.

But the VEP with sample server setup also delivers many real advantages: you can offload most of the sample playing tasks and so free up your DAW computer to do other things. You can optimize the sample serving machines for sample serving, and know that it's ready to go, whatever you are doing on DAW machine. If your DAW crashes it won't affect the VEP machine and so it's very quick to restart. Because you aren't pushing the DAW machine to do so much it's less likely to crash in the first place and when it does crash it's easier to isolate the issue. So some real upsides.

I keep weighing these plusses and minuses myself. Like @ALittleNightMusic, I don't find a very compelling reason to use VEP on a single machine.


----------



## gyprock (Feb 14, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> I keep weighing these plusses and minuses myself. Like @ALittleNightMusic, I don't find a very compelling reason to use VEP on a single machine.


Except for maybe a program like Dorico that is not yet optimized as a DAW. The file sizes using Dorico+ Noteperformer are small but when you start building templates with other VSTs like Kontakt and the Synchron Player each file grows large quickly and load times are slow.


----------



## Wunderhorn (Feb 14, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> so does VEP practically never crash?


It does crash. A lot. And many times it will crash your DAW along with it as well.

Still, I think its advantages outweigh the crashing even when used only on a single machine. Just the better core distribution for CPU load alone is worth it let alone the fact that you can independently switch projects without having to load all instruments and the entire sample data that goes with it each time.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 14, 2022)

I've been able to make Logic spike an individual CPU core on my machine, due to the way it works. Loading the same instrument (single) in VE Pro - locally - totally eliminates that.


----------



## José Herring (Feb 14, 2022)

VEPro is great. Used it for years with hardly any issues. That being said recently just switched to one machine without VEPro. That has its benefits as well. I did it to try something new and to stop using VEPro for a little while. So far it is working out great. But, should the need arise again for me to use slave computers, I would use VEPro without hesitation. The only real problem I ran into with VEPro is I just got tired of using it. Booting up multiple machines, waiting for things to load, ect.. Also, the last VEPro version the save times were getting crazy. Sometimes up to 20 minutes to save my template and quit the program. Never did figure it out and before somebody chimes in yes...I had everything decoupled. I think it was just the way that I was using VEPro, I had just ported over my old VEPro 5 template into VEPro7 and the two versions weren't exactly the same setup. So looking at setting up everything again, I just put the drives into my DAW machine and built the new template just in my DAW. Loving it so far.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Feb 14, 2022)

Here's the other issue with VEP if you want to run purged versions of Kontakt, etc. If you want to start a new track with the same template, VEP will still reflect the samples used in the previous track and there's no universal purge option for Kontakt for example. So if you do want to optimize RAM for the new track, you have to reload all of VEP anyway. That's what I found at least.


----------



## David Kudell (Feb 14, 2022)

I was using a disabled track Cubase template without VEPro for a long time. Then last year I started writing music on films and I'd have a bunch of cues to write, each cue in its own project. That's when I realized the value of VEPro.

Without VEPro, my Cubase save times were getting out of hand, I'd be right in the middle of inspiration about to play a viola line and auto-save would happen and I'd be sitting there for 10seconds waiting....

My project size was over 1GB, and with auto-backups and new versions, it ate a ton of space. I did run a 1500 track template.

Building a VEP template took a long time, and takes a while to figure out how to do it. I found YouTube videos weren't always that great at explaining the process. You also really have to wrap your head around how you want to set up your returns from VEP so you can print stems the way you want, and you need to learn how to mix via CC11 and CC7 instead of relying on Cubase track volume automation. MIDI flags are essential at the beginning of your template, so if you mess with CC7 on one Cubase project, it'll go back to normal when you load another Cubase project. If you don't know what MIDI flags are, look up Anne-Kathrin Dern's video on it.

However, once you do that, and when it works, it's pretty magical. My Cubase project file size is like 20MB and when I hit save it happens instantly. It's great scrolling down your list of tracks and being able to play any of the instruments instantly.

Charlie explained it perfectly - VEP is great for set-it-and-forget-it orchestral instruments. I use a one track per articulation style (also like Anne) so I don't have to mess around with keyswitches and I don't use multis. Any instruments that have parameters I need to change, such as synths, ARPs, lost of controls, etc - those remain as instrument tracks and I load those locally in Cubase. I keep a big Cubase project on my drive where I import all those local instruments from...they're already in tracks, routed and ready to go, so if I want some, say, hits and risers, I'll just import a bunch of those tracks.

I do find VEP very stable. However, I do have an issue where if I leave my setup open and go to bed, when I come back the next morning half the time the connection gets messed up somehow and I need to reboot both my server and my DAW computer to get it working again. Still troubleshooting that one...might need to get in touch with Vienna about it.

As far as how many computers, if you can get away with 1 and load it up with a ton of RAM that's the route I'd recommend. I have too many instruments that I can't bear to be without, so I have a trash can Mac Pro with 128GB of RAM that does the strings, brass, and winds. Then on my DAW iMac Pro which has an additional 128GB of RAM, I run VEP housing my Perc, Choirs, Ensembles, and Piano/Gtr. My ideal setup would be either a 2019 Mac Pro or even better - an Apple Silicon Mac Pro with at least 256GB RAM running VEP!


----------



## samphony (Feb 14, 2022)

The only thing I can add to what is already explained. There are several beneficial use cases:

1. a set and forget workflow for instruments you don’t touch that often

2. an outsourcing tool for instruments which are problematic in relation to cpu consumption

3. a creative layering tool box for DAWs which don’t have a build in multi instrument workflow 

I think for ease of use you should always use your DAW first until you hit a wall like CPU issues, a stalling auto save dialog that gets in the way or loading times because you have to write multiple cues using the same 3rd party instruments.

Like many here mentioned the coupled/ decoupled workflow is great but also has another benefit too. You can couple all instances and save a DAW project (which will take longer) as backup as well.

Using VEP doesn’t always mean you have to start with a complex/complicated layout. You could also, in case of 2. is relevant, do a 1:1 relation where one VEP instance is one instrument.


I really like the VEP concept but was unable to use it reliably since many years. I think it started around version 5 and VSL support, which is top notch, was never really able to help. So yes I use Macs in my environment but I don’t by into “it is only working reliably on PCs” - the good thing I don’t represent the majority of users and probably belong to the 0.0003% who are having stability issues in a single and multi computer setup!


----------



## FabIV (Feb 14, 2022)

One other big benefit (I already run into)
You have a Project with a specific library. This Library got updated and is not compatible anymore with the previous one. Just create an instance in VEP with the same instance name of the instance of your old version. Connect to the new created one and the updated version replaces the old one. (Only works if you habe used VEP in the first place)


----------



## charlieclouser (Feb 14, 2022)

FabIV said:


> One other big benefit (I already run into)
> You have a Project with a specific library. This Library got updated and is not compatible anymore with the previous one. Just create an instance in VEP with the same instance name of the instance of your old version. Connect to the new created one and the updated version replaces the old one. (Only works if you habe used VEP in the first place)


Oh snap. That's a good one, and potentially a BIG one for people with long-running projects like tv series or movie franchises that might stretch across years (or even decades).


----------



## labornvain (Feb 15, 2022)

José Herring said:


> , the last VEPro version the save times were getting crazy. Sometimes up to 20 minutes to save my template and quit the program.



Wow. Something isn't right. I have over 2,000 channel is loaded into vep Pro and my open time is about 20 seconds.

Of course I run all of my VEP channels disabled. And using a MIDI switch from a controller, I to
select the track that I want to play and push the button on my controller and it activates that channel. Really cool.


----------



## José Herring (Feb 15, 2022)

labornvain said:


> Wow. Something isn't right. I have over 2,000 channel is loaded into vep Pro and my open time is about 20 seconds.
> 
> Of course I run all of my VEP channels disabled. And using a MIDI switch from a controller, I to
> select the track that I want to play and push the button on my controller and it activates that channel. Really cool.


Yes, I could never figure it out. VEPro 5 which is the version I was using before I "upgraded" nearly instantly loaded and saved. But VEPro 7 with the exact same template ported over just didn't want to save or quit. It was actually a problem that many people reported and the solution offered was to just "force quit" after a while. The funny thing is that it would be saved if you waited a minute or two to force quit but if you let it quit on it's own the save/quit option would be like 20 minutes. 

I always ran my tracks enabled when I used VEPro but that should make a difference because VEPro was always decoupled.


----------



## JohnG (Feb 15, 2022)

Wunderhorn said:


> It does crash. A lot.


Huh -- I never find VE Pro crashing, either on PC or Mac Pro.

And I really like VE Pro 7; some of this feels like luck or magic or something!


----------



## wst3 (Feb 15, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> <HUGE Snip>I used "Connected" and "Disconnected" when the correct terminology is "Coupled" and "Decoupled". But you know what I meant.


A lot to digest there, as I am still learning... but that last bit was a big smack in the head with a 2x4. I don't think I will ever have to thing about coupled and decoupled again - they should have been called connected and disconnected. Maybe?


----------



## Tralen (Feb 15, 2022)

Another advantage of using VEP (or just VE) is that you can have slave/master computers from a different platform. So you can have a Mac workstation connected to a PC slave. This is good for people that prefer working on a Mac but would like a Windows slave for the price.

I run Linux as my main OS and used to outsource the libraries to a Windows machine.


----------



## stigc56 (Feb 15, 2022)

I run VEPro7 on a MacPro 5.1 and on a PC. Although the PC is irritating, due to the windows thing I find it much faster and more powerfull. Both machines are set up to auto boot with VEPro7 and to load each their templates. It works fine - well almost! But I think the routing of the audio back to the DAW, especially when working in Cubendo gets really messy. I just finished a score with only 50 tracks, 90% of them running from the servers, and I can't count the times that I can't find the right audio returns, and all 900 tracks in my template suddenly is displayed, because the mixer is linked to the arrangement page, and click, click .....! You can say that I can't blame VEPro for that , but nevertheless, lets face it Cubendo isn't easy to set up for a server based studio, it takes forever, and it IS convoluted to work with.
I'm now testing Studio One, and also in this matter it's much more clear than Cubendo. 
To me all those things also have to be considered, when you look for the pro and cons for using either a disabled track template OR a template based around a VEPro server. 

and ps. We really should use the therm servers and not sl... Or is it just my "soft Danish temperament"?


----------



## Tralen (Feb 15, 2022)

stigc56 said:


> and ps. We really should use the therm servers and not sl... Or is it just my "soft Danish temperament"?


I don't know, I expect a server to run a server OS and to have some specific functionality.

But I agree that the terms I used are unfortunate. VSL uses "Master" and "Server" or "Networked Machine", so sticking to those should also avoid confusion in regards to the documentation.


----------



## chillbot (Feb 15, 2022)

Tralen said:


> I don't know, I expect a server to run a server OS and to have some specific functionality.
> 
> But I agree that the terms I used are unfortunate. VSL uses "Master" and "Server" or "Networked Machine", so sticking to those should also avoid confusion in regards to the documentation.


I agree "server" can be confusing but "slave" is just gross. I alternatively use "server machine", "sample machine", or "vepro machine". Seems to get the point across. Of course, my sample machine is actually a server, so...

I also think "slave" is just a silly term now, leftover from those days of setting the jumper configurations on our hard drives to master/slave (as one example). My sample machine is it's own computer! It can do everything my DAW can do and then some... has more RAM, etc. Silly to reference it in that way.


----------



## Tralen (Feb 15, 2022)

chillbot said:


> I agree "server" can be confusing but "slave" is just gross. I alternatively use "server machine", "sample machine", or "vepro machine". Seems to get the point across. Of course, my sample machine is actually a server, so...
> 
> I also think "slave" is just a silly term now, leftover from those days of setting the jumper configurations on our hard drives to master/slave (as one example). My sample machine is it's own computer! It can do everything my DAW can do and then some... has more RAM, etc. Silly to reference it in that way.


Agreed on all counts.

Thinking about it, perhaps using "Server" is actually more helpful for beginners. Nitpicking if the machine is or isn't a server seems to be just a confusing point.


----------



## Saxer (Feb 15, 2022)

VEP crashes sometimes but only when dealing with plugins (loading, building template etc). In pure playback mode I can't remember a crash.

Cons: For each project you have to deal with two parallel files (DAW song and VEPro template) in case you change your template (new libraries!).
An extra VEPro computer is an extra machine to keep up to date, in case of dongles you have to decide on which machine you want the libraries, you need extra backups and extra electricity and space (computer, mouse, keyboard, screen). If one of two computers breaks the projects doesn't play anymore.

I like to use VEPro on the same machine.


----------



## labornvain (Feb 15, 2022)

Saxer said:


> VEP crashes sometimes but only when dealing with plugins (loading, building template etc). In pure playback mode I can't remember a crash.
> 
> Cons: For each project you have to deal with two parallel files (DAW song and VEPro template) in case you change your template (new libraries!).
> An extra VEPro computer is an extra machine to keep up to date, in case of dongles you have to decide on which machine you want the libraries, you need extra backups and extra electricity and space (computer, mouse, keyboard, screen). If one of two computers breaks the projects doesn't play anymore.
> ...



For what it's worth, there is a way to run both computers with only one keyboard and one Mouse. For years I've been using a splitter which allows me to push a button and switch between my two computers. Lately though, 4 template building, I've been using a little program called anydesk and that allows me to see both my computer's at once.

Anydesk is free.

So I've got Cubase on one monitor and VePro on the other and I interface both with only one keyboard and one mouse. Anydesk even allows you to copy and paste between the two computers. It's very handy.


----------



## stigc56 (Feb 15, 2022)

labornvain said:


> For what it's worth, there is a way to run both computers with only one keyboard and one Mouse. For years I've been using a splitter which allows me to push a button and switch between my two computers. Lately though, 4 template building, I've been using a little program called anydesk and that allows me to see both my computer's at once.
> 
> Anydesk is free.
> 
> So I've got Cubase on one monitor and VePro on the other and I interface both with only one keyboard and one mouse. Anydesk even allows you to copy and paste between the two computers. It's very handy.


Yes that’s the way I use it too. Not Anydesk but Microsoft something. Sorry.


----------



## Saxer (Feb 15, 2022)

I used a Mac with VEPro-PC with screen and mouse sharing too but I needed a screen/keyboard/mouse to start the PC. It had about half a second latency (mouse movement) and wasn't fun to work like that. But there may be better solutions...


----------



## NYC Composer (Feb 15, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> I do find VEP very stable. However, I do have an issue where if I leave my setup open and go to bed, when I come back the next morning half the time the connection gets messed up somehow and I need to reboot both my server and my DAW computer to get it working again.


Every. damn. time.

You can't leave Cubase/VEP open for a full day without them both crashing. It's annoying as hell. I'm on VEP 6, but I think it happens in every version.


----------



## chillbot (Feb 15, 2022)

NYC Composer said:


> Every. damn. time.
> 
> You can't leave Cubase/VEP open for a full day without them both crashing. It's annoying as hell. I'm on VEP 6, but I think it happens in every version.


Oh I hadn't thought about this in years after spending *literally* years trying to troubleshoot it. I'm sure there's at least one thread if not more around here that I started. I finally gave up and we set my sample computer to reboot every night and reload VEPro around 2am so when I come in every morning it's ready to go. (I'm not a late night person so almost guaranteed to be asleep at 2am... usually up around 4/5am.) In the end it proved to be a great workaround cause I haven't given it another thought since. @Jdiggity1 would have more specifics from when he was working with me.


----------



## charlieclouser (Feb 15, 2022)

wst3 said:


> A lot to digest there, as I am still learning... but that last bit was a big smack in the head with a 2x4. I don't think I will ever have to thing about coupled and decoupled again - they should have been called connected and disconnected. Maybe?


Well, VEPro uses the terms "Connect" and "Connected" to refer to whether or not an instance of VEPro is connected and communicating with the plugin in the host DAW. Since it is possible to have a giant VEPro layout with many instances up and running in the background or on remote computers, whether or not the host DAW is actually connected to any / all of those instances depends on the settings of the VEPro plugins inside the DAW. That plugin doesn't really have any controls other than some settings to determine which instances of the remote VEPro software it's connected to.

So it's quite possible to have a giant VEPro template set up and waiting in the background, while some DAW songs connect to some VEPro instances, and some DAW songs don't. This is actually pretty great since it means that your DAW songs don't have to *always* be connected to all instances of VEPro - just the ones you need for that particular DAW song, if that's more convenient.

Whereas "Coupled" and "Decoupled" only refer to whether or not an instance of VEPro will "poll" and "push" the status and settings of the remote VEPro instances back to the host DAW. Coupled mode can be great because it will allow the host DAW project to store / load / save the entire status of a VEPro instance, while Decoupled means that the DAW operates independently of the VEPro instances to which it's connected.

So I guess the different terms for "Coupled" versus "Connected" still need to be separate.


----------



## David Kudell (Feb 15, 2022)

chillbot said:


> Oh I hadn't thought about this in years after spending *literally* years trying to troubleshoot it. I'm sure there's at least one thread if not more around here that I started. I finally gave up and we set my sample computer to reboot every night and reload VEPro around 2am so when I come in every morning it's ready to go. (I'm not a late night person so almost guaranteed to be asleep at 2am... usually up around 4/5am.) In the end it proved to be a great workaround cause I haven't given it another thought since. @Jdiggity1 would have more specifics from when he was working with me.


I’m at least a little relieved that I’m not the only one experiencing this, between you and @NYC Composer. The auto boot idea is a good one, I might set this up as well. I wonder if it’s a Mac thing.


----------



## Henning (Feb 16, 2022)

I used VEPro since it came out 10 years ago. Had all the versions including VEP7. For a long time it was a godsend and served me well as the templates got bigger and sample libs ram-hungrier. At one point I had two slaves. It was absolutely stable, I never had much problems with crashes. 

After I got a new machine with 256 GB ram a tad over a year ago I dropped VEP. Reasons were similar as José's above: I got tired of using and servicing it and I don't look back. I have a basic disabled template now and I add instruments for each project anyway and I also do much more live recordings now than before. I understand why people still use it for their different reasons. But it's not for me anymore


----------



## tmhuud (Feb 16, 2022)

I started with version one. I think it crashed maybe 5 times over the last 10 years but it was never due to the VePro software itself.


----------



## Ben (Feb 16, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> I’m at least a little relieved that I’m not the only one experiencing this, between you and @NYC Composer. The auto boot idea is a good one, I might set this up as well. I wonder if it’s a Mac thing.


I have analyzed many crash-reports over the last 2 years, and in ~90% of all cases VEP-crashes are related to plugin crashs. We can't do much about these, but if you send us the crashdumps / system-id (if you get a crash-popup), we are lookign into this and in most cases can tell you if VEP, or and which plugin caused the crash.



stigc56 said:


> es that’s the way I use it too. Not Anydesk but Microsoft something. Sorry.


In general we don't recommend using Microsoft RDP for remote access, as it is known to cause certain plugins to crash within VEP (OpenGL driver crash). In such cases we recommend to use alternative remote desktop solutions.


----------



## Ben (Feb 16, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> I would like to hear from your experience with VEP, and how did you get the most of samples and big arrangements without spending too much money in worse choices.


Here are a few things I'd like to share from my experience:

- Keep the things that you constantly change in your DAW, if poossible (for example synths).
- You can map automation in VEP, not only for the VEP mixer but also the plugins you host in VEP. Great choice for libraries where you like to adjust a few parameters or use automation.
- Avoid continuous tempo changes when using VEP in a network and use step changes instead; it can cause performance issues, especially when using many VEP instances. If you run VEP on a single machine this is usual not that much of a problem.
- Where possible try creating submixes in VEP instead of enabling too many return channels. Also try using as few VEP instances as possible. Both can hugely increase performance.
- You can also enable/disable entire VEP instances. You can also use automation to do this (and also to enable/disable instances).
- Don't use one articulation per VEP instance - there are such templates, but eventually they cause a lot of trouble (and they are super time intensive to set up).
- For multi-timbral players (for example Kontakt) it's usually better to use one player instance per instrument. There are a few exceptions, but avoid loading CPU heavy instruments into the same player instance, as the instance will have to share a single thread and can't be spread across mutliple CPU cores.

Instead of sitting down and creating a super huge template at the beginning, I recommend to move just a part of your current workflow to VEP at the beginning, and work with it for a while. This way you avoid spending days to set up everything and only then noticing that your new template does not fit your workflow.


----------



## matthieuL (Feb 16, 2022)

ed buller said:


> Another huge benefit is right now I'm going thru a big project from 6 years ago done on a different machine JUST in cubase. So for every f***ing session I load I have to tell Kontakt where the samples are !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> whereas: IF i had done this with VEP they wouldn't be a need


Didn't observe that, this behaviour is exactly the same in VEP. Unless you use a trick I don't know ?


----------



## jononotbono (Feb 16, 2022)

I've not used VEPro for a while as I haven't worked on a film for what feels like forever but I did love VEPro. Eradicating Save times by having an instrument track only template was one of my favourite things about using VEPro. Save times are such a drag and using VEPro decoupled is a wonderful thing. Basically everything Charlie has said especially about set and forget orchestral instruments makes it so worthwhile using. I’m about to get a third Mac Pro 5,1 as a friend is getting rid of it so I’m considering installing VEPro 7 again and making a monster template that works with my Touch Screen Controller. Might as well take nerdery to the maximum it can be.


----------



## ed buller (Feb 16, 2022)

matthieuL said:


> Didn't observe that, this behaviour is exactly the same in VEP. Unless you use a trick I don't know ?


sorry , I should have been clearer. Yes VEP will need the same prompts but once it's found everything all the cubase files will be ok. So one instance of re-directing rather than hundreds !


best

e


----------



## matthieuL (Feb 16, 2022)

Ah ok !
For me the situation is the same in both cases, since my template constantly evolves so I have a VEP file for each project in order to not break old projects.


----------



## iMovieShout (Feb 16, 2022)

Running VEPro7 on x12 machines here (x1 Windows10pro workstation, x10 Windows Server, x1 MacPro). 99% of the time all is fine, but every so often it will crash for no reason on one of the Windows Server machines (Windows Server version 2012R2). Normally the crash is down to a Kontakt plugin. Otherwise all good.

For my studio, the primary benefits are:
* Easier to pick instruments for new projects, as all instruments are loaded and ready to roll
* Dramatically reduces CPU and memory drain on my DAW machines
* DAW template is setup to play any instrument any time
* Easier to isolate any technical issues with new / updated plugins or libraries.


----------



## jononotbono (Feb 16, 2022)

jpb007.uk said:


> Running VEPro7 on x12 machines here (x1 Windows10pro workstation, x10 Windows Server, x1 MacPro). 99% of the time all is fine, but every so often it will crash for no reason on one of the Windows Server machines (Windows Server version 2012R2). Normally the crash is down to a Kontakt plugin. Otherwise all good.
> 
> For my studio, the primary benefits are:
> * Easier to pick instruments for new projects, as all instruments are loaded and ready to roll
> ...


12 machines?! Love it.  

I'm now wondering... what's the most amount of VEPro machines people are using or have used?


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 16, 2022)

Ben said:


> Here are a few things I'd like to share from my experience:
> 
> - Keep the things that you constantly change in your DAW, if poossible (for example synths).
> - You can map automation in VEP, not only for the VEP mixer but also the plugins you host in VEP. Great choice for libraries where you like to adjust a few parameters or use automation.
> ...


Really cool. Thanks! So now i got confused with some guy on YT saying that multiinstruments per instance is the way to go with articulations maps on Logic Pro etc.... But if i got a conclusion: this is only good for sketching, or for using solo instruments (If!), or for adapting better to the processes of notation (what is maybe the hardest issue to solve for me, and the most important) integrating with the standard daw workflow of film composers). 


One last question: *does VEP helps significantly composing in a template of ca. 150 tracks, using it in a single computer?* I think that this is the best choice, unless you have assistance when buying a slave and have a more solid studio long term. Remembering that a tutti of mine will rarely use all the 150 tracks 


About avoiding slaves you have it here, close to middle  https://youtu.be/oaOph1Pp_Xw. I just wonder if this argument still works for a 32 RAM mac, 2018...


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 16, 2022)

jononotbono said:


> 12 machines?! Love it.
> 
> I'm now wondering... what's the most amount of VEPro machines people are using or have used?


wow it is like a family! How loud is it? and are the machines not so powerful each then?


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Feb 16, 2022)

I used a VEPro setup for years (Mac master, PC slave). It worked like a charm, but now that I can do everything on my new Mac, I don't miss VEPro at all. My big templates now use Logic's dynamic loading feature, which is a Godsend. Sold the slave machine last year.

Since 2012, VEPro never crashed once. The only time it caused me grief was when VSL did an update in V.6, where it completely wiped out my DNS settings. As a result, I had to reinstall the OS. They admitted the bug, but neglected to send out an email to their customers to warn the customer (and zero apology afterwards). Needless to say, it kind of jaded my perspective on VSL after that.


----------



## NYC Composer (Feb 16, 2022)

Because I’m essentially a Luddite (and cheap) I ran everything on a 2008 MacPro between 2008 and 2019. When my machine started to choke I bought a 4 core i7 Mac Mini as a second computer and used VEP to connect them. It was painful to learn and setup but afterwards it was a godsend, and allowed me to keep running big orch sessions for years after.

in 2019 I bought the i9 iMac, and I continue to use VEP on a single machine. I find it takes substantial load off of Cubase. My Big Orch Template is probably much smaller than most, maybe about 500 tracks, and 95% of my samples are hosted in VEP 6, the rest in Cubase. if I make substantial changes to my VEP template I save it with a date, and use the most recent one going forward for new sessions.

I work decoupled and save a new instance of VEP with the same name as my Cubase file. if I need to go back, I load the corresponding name in VEP then the Cubase file, and everything hooks right up. It’s incredibly wasteful of disk space but gives me a sense of security.

At this point I also run totally enabled. I may change that someday but I manage to fit everything in 128 GB of RAM, and it’s very pleasant to have everything immediately available.


----------



## Ben (Feb 16, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> Really cool. Thanks! So now i got confused with some guy on YT saying that multiinstruments per instance is the way to go with articulations maps on Logic Pro etc.... But if i got a conclusion: this is only good for sketching, or for using solo instruments (If!), or for adapting better to the processes of notation (what is maybe the hardest issue to solve for me, and the most important) integrating with the standard daw workflow of film composers).


Well, you can put multiple instruments in one Kontakt instance, but since these all will share the CPU time you should take into consideration the libraries and adjust the number of instruments per player instance according to this. These days there are many libraries out there with heavy scripting, or many mic signals, or both. Of course, if only 1-2 instruments are playing at the same time in a Kontakt instance, this will also likely not be a problem.



Emanuel Fróes said:


> One last question: *does VEP helps significantly composing in a template of ca. 150 tracks, using it in a single computer?* I think that this is the best choice, unless you have assistance when buying a slave and have a more solid studio long term. Remembering that a tutti of mine will rarely use all the 150 tracks


Yes, I think so. At least this is how I like to work on larger projects that should be consistent over multiple DAW-projects. Also, it's not a bad idea to create DAW project templates fitting your VEP templates. It's easy to set up a new project and not to bother with project setup.


----------



## AR (Feb 16, 2022)

Okay let me tell you about my experience with vepro running on slaves that have 128gb and 256gb of RAM. My Vepro took 20+ min to load up on each PC. And I had 6 computers of those. I didn't bother anymore and switched to a disabled template after watching a video from Trevor Morris. Most of the time I tend to use my 50-60 favorite instruments and the rest is to individual taste for each cue. I use the Vepro slaves nowadays for audio processing. Lots of gulfoss, soothe, cinematic rooms, decapitator and stuff like that. It gives me a 90-95% near finished mix while composing. It is astonishing to which different patches you switch while hearing for example a violin in mix context. It helped me a lot in improving my final mix stems.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 16, 2022)

AR said:


> Okay let me tell you about my experience with vepro running on slaves that have 128gb and 256gb of RAM. My Vepro took 20+ min to load up on each PC. And I had 6 computers of those. I didn't bother anymore and switched to a disabled template after watching a video from Trevor Morris. Most of the time I tend to use my 50-60 favorite instruments and the rest is to individual taste for each cue. I use the Vepro slaves nowadays for audio processing. Lots of gulfoss, soothe, cinematic rooms, decapitator and stuff like that. It gives me a 90-95% near finished mix while composing. It is astonishing to which different patches you switch while hearing for example a violin in mix context. It helped me a lot in improving my final mix stems.


my situation is similar, but with more moments of cpu overload or bad performance. There comes my need for VEP. But in the most of the time i also compose so mixed as possible, regarding the basics. I compose the mix as well so to say. Bad Tone, Rev. and Balance can influence a lot the direction of the piece. I use Waves and Eastwest, next to Kontakt, so if i don´t load too much i can go some miles still. I downloaded VEP as demo and on attachment is *my very first impression of VEP ) I must be cursed haha. On Logic the same worked smoothly.*


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 16, 2022)

Ben said:


> Well, you can put multiple instruments in one Kontakt instance, but since these all will share the CPU time you should take into consideration the libraries and adjust the number of instruments per player instance according to this. These days there are many libraries out there with heavy scripting, or many mic signals, or both. Of course, if only 1-2 instruments are playing at the same time in a Kontakt instance, this will also likely not be a problem.
> 
> 
> Yes, I think so. At least this is how I like to work on larger projects that should be consistent over multiple DAW-projects. Also, it's not a bad idea to create DAW project templates fitting your VEP templates. It's easy to set up a new project and not to bother with project setup.





Ben said:


> Well, you can put multiple instruments in one Kontakt instance, but since these all will share the CPU time you should take into consideration the libraries and adjust the number of instruments per player instance according to this. These days there are many libraries out there with heavy scripting, or many mic signals, or both. Of course, if only 1-2 instruments are playing at the same time in a Kontakt instance, this will also likely not be a problem.
> 
> 
> Yes, I think so. At least this is how I like to work on larger projects that should be consistent over multiple DAW-projects. Also, it's not a bad idea to create DAW project templates fitting your VEP templates. It's easy to set up a new project and not to bother with project setup.


my first experience yesterday is on attachment  haha


----------



## Ben (Feb 16, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> my first experience yesterday is on attachment  haha



If this is reproducable (happens all the time if you do something specific), please send us a brief mail with the steps to reproduce the issue to: [email protected]
if we can reproduce the issue it's easy to fix - if this is a VEP issue and not a crash inside of a plugin.


----------



## samphony (Feb 16, 2022)

JohnG said:


> And I really like VE Pro 7; some of this feels like luck or magic or something!


Lucky you!!!!


----------



## studioj (Feb 16, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> my first experience yesterday is on attachment  haha


I would recommend the build from May 2020, build 1056 I think it is. that one is pretty solid for me. I have had constant crashing with anything newer than that with VEP7 and it sounds like I am not the only one. But as long as that 2020 build is compatible with your rig, you might get better results from it. 10+ year user of VEP here, and haven't ever seen crashing like what more recent builds are doing.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Feb 16, 2022)

Here's Paul Thompson running through his 1000 track template (part 2) - runs everything locally within Logic


----------



## cet34f (Feb 16, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> but now that I can do everything on my new Mac, I don't miss VEPro at all. My big templates now use Logic's dynamic loading feature, which is a Godsend.



I've heard many times that someone happily says goodbye to VEP after buying a new computer, but I don't understand how you handle the project size issue. I keep using VEP no mater how good my computer is because an independent Cubase template—without VEP—has ridiculous project size, like 1GB-5GB.

Does this "Logic's dynamic loading feature" solve this problem and reduce project size?


----------



## Saxer (Feb 16, 2022)

cet34f said:


> Does this "Logic's dynamic loading feature" solve this problem and reduce project size?


No. It's a Kontakt thing. When lots of Kontakt instruments are loaded in a template the file size blows up independent if activated or not.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Feb 16, 2022)

cet34f said:


> I've heard many times that someone happily says goodbye to VEP after buying a new computer, but I don't understand how you handle the project size issue. I keep using VEP no mater how good my computer is because an independent Cubase template—without VEP—has ridiculous project size, like 1GB-5GB.
> 
> Does this "Logic's dynamic loading feature" solve this problem and reduce project size?


Just like the Cubase disabling feature, my projects only load the actual tracks that I’m using within a template. So I can have hundreds (or 1000+) tracks in a template, but none of them are actually loaded until I click on a track.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Feb 16, 2022)

Saxer said:


> No. It's a Kontakt thing. When lots of Kontakt instruments are loaded in a template the file size blows up independent if activated or not.


Doesn’t happen on my end. A Kontakt instrument doesn’t actually load until I click on a track that has a Kontakt instrument. Same with Play, Opus, Sine, Spitfire Player and Omnisphere.


----------



## Saxer (Feb 16, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Doesn’t happen on my end. A Kontakt instrument doesn’t actually load until I click on a track that has a Kontakt instrument. Same with Play, Opus, Sine, Spitfire Player and Omnisphere.


It's not about the loaded RAM. It's the song file size that blows up. Makes saving very slow and takes GB's on the drive for every cue.


----------



## cet34f (Feb 16, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Doesn’t happen on my end. A Kontakt instrument doesn’t actually load until I click on a track that has a Kontakt instrument. Same with Play, Opus, Sine, Spitfire Player and Omnisphere.


Thank you both for replying.

I suspect it could be a Cubase thing, because what Saxer said (Kontakt making the file size blow up) does happen to me even when I use Cubase's Disable Track feature.

Or, it could be that we have different opinions on what counts as a "blow up". My VEP Cubase project is like 15MB, so I am spoiled.


----------



## cet34f (Feb 16, 2022)

Saxer said:


> It's not about the loaded RAM. It's the song file size that blows up. Makes saving very slow and takes GB's on the drive for every cue.


Yes, this is exactly what i was talking about. My concern is the file size, not memory. I can almost put up with the drive space it took, but I can't live with its saving time.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Feb 16, 2022)

Both Logic and Cubase will result in similar file size numbers for fully disabled templates in my experience. Around 500-600mb for an empty template in my case - will grow as you enable tracks and add MIDI to it. But will shrink as you remove tracks you don’t need for that cue / piece. Template management is a necessity with this approach if you don’t want to clog up your hard drive.


----------



## Loerpert (Feb 16, 2022)

VEP works great for templates, but since I work more dynamically, I like Audiogridder more.


----------



## iMovieShout (Feb 17, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Here's Paul Thompson running through his 1000 track template (part 2) - runs everything locally within Logic



Some machines absolutely can run many many enabled instruments concurrently, such as the new MacPro and AMD Thread Ripper. But most cannot, so the options are to either disable all but a few instruments in the DAW, or move instruments to remote machines running VEPro or similar.

For example, my studio DAW machine can run around 30 enabled instruments before experiencing latency and audio issues. I say 30 but that really depends on the library and number of Mics (eg. Spitfire's HZ Strings with all Mics enabled will cause my PC to slow to a snails pace with inaudible audio). I'm running on a dual Xeon-2696v3 CPU / 72 CPU threads at 3.2GHz, with 512GB RAM and 12TB NVMe drives, with UAD Apollo x8. Running SA's HZ Strings with most Mics from a remote Dell server (192GB RAM and dual E5-5675 CPUs) running VEPro, creates no CPU, audio or latency issues at all. 
Its really a case of playing around / trial and error!!!


----------



## JohnG (Feb 17, 2022)

jpb007.uk said:


> Its really a case of playing around / trial and error!!!


I agree — trial and error.

I still think you need a big system if you like to work with everything ready to go, at your fingertips. It’s tempting to ditch the big rig and get one of Apple’s new laptops. Like many here, I’ve seen some excited folk with a single laptop writing that they can do anything with it, 

However, the handful of more-established composers I’ve polled have told me not to surrender my extra sample-server computers. They’ve said that if you want full orchestral resources, including all the alternate libraries (choir, strings, synths, guitars, sonic effects — the whole thing) ready to roll more or less instantly, you still need a lot of horsepower.

Would love to have a simpler setup some day but it just doesn’t seem to happen.


----------



## David Kudell (Feb 17, 2022)

cet34f said:


> Yes, this is exactly what i was talking about. My concern is the file size, not memory. I can almost put up with the drive space it took, but I can't live with its saving time.


Yep, and with auto save in Cubase you get 10copies per project. So with my 1GB disabled template, let’s say I did a cue and incrementally saved 5 versions. That’s 50 auto saves. Suddenly you’re at 50GB for one cue. The last film I did additional music on I did around 15 cues, so you’re at 750GB right there! One of the reasons I switched to VEPro was my session files were so big they were taking up way too much shared space on the main composer’s shared Dropbox!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Feb 17, 2022)

Last time I tried setting up a VEP template with Cubase, the size of template was really big still and it seemed to take more CPU than a disabled track template - is this just due to using too many VEP instances? I had one per instrument type (flutes, oboes, bassoons, etc).


----------



## David Kudell (Feb 17, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Last time I tried setting up a VEP template with Cubase, the size of template was really big still and it seemed to take more CPU than a disabled track template - is this just due to using too many VEP instances? I had one per instrument type (flutes, oboes, bassoons, etc).


I have 65 VEP returns total and my Cubase file size is 19MB. Check to make sure you are running Decoupled, I believe that's the key for the small file size.


----------



## Ben (Feb 17, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Last time I tried setting up a VEP template with Cubase, the size of template was really big still and it seemed to take more CPU than a disabled track template - is this just due to using too many VEP instances? I had one per instrument type (flutes, oboes, bassoons, etc).


Yes. One VEP instance per instrument - and I guess you are running a few hundred instruments - will hurt performance quite a lot.


----------



## Jeffrey Peterson (Feb 17, 2022)

I have 14 instances.
I tried having everything on one instance but could get to work well.


----------



## EgM (Feb 17, 2022)

Here's my workflow using VEP these days: (Sorry for the long post and I'm like the worst teacher on earth)

_I gave up Live-in-DAW templates long ago cause of save time/space. But I still depend on VEP a lot for speed of patch loading. I don't use disabled tracks, these still take save time/space._

I use 3 machines: 1 for the DAW, the 2 others as VEP Servers. I run through all of them directionally with one mouse and keyboard using Synergy (https://symless.com/synergy). So if I wanna go to the up screen (VEP-PC2), I just mouse over to it.

I don't recommend using RemoteDesktop/VNC/Splashtop as these use ethernet; I use directly connected monitors to these machines like this:







*Yes, you can save VEP presets within your DAW—People seem to forget this.*

Below is a little video showing how this works. You can see the two screens on the left, these are physical screens that are being captured. (see orange squares on top VEP-PCx)



In my case, I use Studio One but you can do the exact same thing in Cubase, Logic, etc. Just save a preset of your loaded instance and load it from there.


_Q: Ok 3 machines? What about the noise?_
A: I have these in my basement, hole in floor for cabling. Can use an adjacent room as well.

_Q: 1 instance per instrument? Are you nuts?_
A: Yes. As I don't load all these instruments all at once in my project, the rest are practically dormant/purged and don't seem to use any resources if not active.

Anyway. I've been actively working like this since last year and I have no complaints, VEP is on latest version in Win/Mac and I have no crashes or dropouts.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 18, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Here's Paul Thompson running through his 1000 track template (part 2) - runs everything locally within Logic



i know this one.Basically this is just a vitirine for their vsts. He left so many interesting template issues and information that drives me 🥜 . Someone who can build a big template knows already the basics and how these libraries sound, omg


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 18, 2022)

EgM said:


> Here's my workflow using VEP these days: (Sorry for the long post and I'm like the worst teacher on earth)
> 
> _I gave up Live-in-DAW templates long ago cause of save time/space. But I still depend on VEP a lot for speed of patch loading. I don't use disabled tracks, these still take save time/space._
> 
> ...



your setup looks already complex, so wonder that you checked very well that connections are stable? principally mouse. 

For example: i dont use logic remote because it is not 100% reliable regarding how it consumes power and usb connection. Anyway i need to find a “God” among usb hubs and cables, because 3 powered hubs still are unreliable here, unfortunately. But more than this, if your studio is fix and the connections and apps do not die, looks great to extend the cpus


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 18, 2022)

cet34f said:


> I've heard many times that someone happily says goodbye to VEP after buying a new computer, but I don't understand how you handle the project size issue. I keep using VEP no mater how good my computer is because an independent Cubase template—without VEP—has ridiculous project size, like 1GB-5GB.
> 
> Does this "Logic's dynamic loading feature" solve this problem and reduce project size?


ok, tHe project size thing is a good argument! but do you save samples in the project or not? In Logic there are two ways


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Feb 18, 2022)

@Emanuel Fróes have you ever seen VM1? You might be interested, it's an app for managing VEPro...and also works with an iPad. I was part of the Beta testing and it's a great app. The latest version had a few bugs, but they may have ironed them out by now. 






VM1 | Montreal Music Labs







www.montrealmusiclabs.com


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Feb 18, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> i know this one.Basically this is just a vitirine for their vsts. He left so many interesting template issues and information that drives me 🥜 . Someone who can build a big template knows already the basics and how these libraries sound, omg


Lol not everybody knows the basics - and Paul is answering questions in the comments. And yes, he’s the cofounder of the biggest sample library company in the world (that basically caters to his needs in many cases) - no surprise his template has their products. He also has U-He in there. Maybe you can learn a thing or two from somebody with his credits.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 18, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Lol not everybody knows the basics - and Paul is answering questions in the comments. And yes, he’s the cofounder of the biggest sample library company in the world (that basically caters to his needs in many cases) - no surprise his template has their products. He also has U-He in there. Maybe you can learn a thing or two from somebody with his credits.


What did you learn about templates there?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Feb 18, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> What did you learn about templates there?


Enough to go build a pretty great Logic template now.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 18, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Both Logic and Cubase will result in similar file size numbers for fully disabled templates in my experience. Around 500-600mb for an empty template in my case - will grow as you enable tracks and add MIDI to it. But will shrink as you remove tracks you don’t need for that cue / piece. Template management is a necessity with this approach if you don’t want to clog up your hard drive.


The removing tracks thing is interesting. In my template i have to be careful removing many tracks at once because it may take 5 minutes or even crash. With the hide option i got this issue, but now works fine again. I miss in Logic Pro a short cut to activate the input plug in of tracks and tracks all togheter. There is a button, but the key command i cant find there. This is why i dont use ctrl+option while deactivating the tracks, i just deactivate. To reactivate tracks there is no KC that i found, and for instrument plug in i don't find any KM to activate or deactivate. This is by far one of the most important things to "survive" a big template, principally on single computer.

A computer for a template of 1000 tracks with Spitfire is still not possible  I should ask my clients for a raise


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 18, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> @Emanuel Fróes have you ever seen VM1? You might be interested, it's an app for managing VEPro...and also works with an iPad. I was part of the Beta testing and it's a great app. The latest version had a few bugs, but they may have ironed them out by now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


cool! gonna look


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 18, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Enough to go build a pretty great Logic template now.


on that video? But what is "enough" for example? Which techniques?


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 18, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Enough to go build a pretty great Logic template now.


Btw: perfectly fine to do whatever video, but if the intention is to sell, i would rather show on Spitfire channel. They can do as they want, and i also find nice some informal video, but know that people have basic expectations with the channel presents itself as the channel of an artist (independent of being employee of SPitfire) and if the video insinuates to be a kind of tutorial. BUt i told him anyway: it is really a walkthrough, so no one can _demand _nothing. I just say, that there i did not find much about _template, but about Spitfire, _despite the whole coolness of the walkthrough and his video. But in generall his videos are pleasant, and ya helpful, showing his work and trying to point some techniqueor topic that is not covered (the organ for example)


----------



## David Kudell (Feb 18, 2022)

@Emanuel Fróes you're the original poster and you received 4 pages of really useful advice from other composers who took time out of their day to try to help you with your questions regarding VEPro. It's so great to see people helping each other isn't it? And if you don't like a piece of advice or video that's suggested, saying thank you and moving on feels like the appropriate response.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 19, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> @Emanuel Fróes you're the original poster and you received 4 pages of really useful advice from other composers who took time out of their day to try to help you with your questions regarding VEPro. It's so great to see people helping each other isn't it? And if you don't like a piece of advice or video that's suggested, saying thank you and moving on feels like the appropriate response.


Well, i gave thanks already, and likes. And who are you to be my papa? Say thanks for me creating the thread then. Am i obligated to like the video? I liked that he suggests something , but not the video. If it were me egal, i would not even keep talking to him. By the way, you don´t have to stop your busy day to rule over children, but thanks for the moral supervision.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 19, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> @Emanuel Fróes you're the original poster and you received 4 pages of really useful advice from other composers who took time out of their day to try to help you with your questions regarding VEPro. It's so great to see people helping each other isn't it? And if you don't like a piece of advice or video that's suggested, saying thank you and moving on feels like the appropriate response.


btw the guy did not answer, so i have NOTHING to thanks haha. If he said he learned something there, so say it... I learned for example that some people need 1000 tracks, and are great salesmen.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 19, 2022)

Wunderhorn said:


> It does crash. A lot. And many times it will crash your DAW along with it as well.
> 
> Still, I think its advantages outweigh the crashing even when used only on a single machine. Just the better core distribution for CPU load alone is worth it let alone the fact that you can independently switch projects without having to load all instruments and the entire sample data that goes with it each time.


This was my first experience, first day. HAHa! it is a total meme! i have faith that they are a good company , however


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 19, 2022)

jpb007.uk said:


> Some machines absolutely can run many many enabled instruments concurrently, such as the new MacPro and AMD Thread Ripper. But most cannot, so the options are to either disable all but a few instruments in the DAW, or move instruments to remote machines running VEPro or similar.
> 
> For example, my studio DAW machine can run around 30 enabled instruments before experiencing latency and audio issues. I say 30 but that really depends on the library and number of Mics (eg. Spitfire's HZ Strings with all Mics enabled will cause my PC to slow to a snails pace with inaudible audio). I'm running on a dual Xeon-2696v3 CPU / 72 CPU threads at 3.2GHz, with 512GB RAM and 12TB NVMe drives, with UAD Apollo x8. Running SA's HZ Strings with most Mics from a remote Dell server (192GB RAM and dual E5-5675 CPUs) running VEPro, creates no CPU, audio or latency issues at all.
> Its really a case of playing around / trial and error!!!


Maybe the final issue to care about is that the computer that hosts the VEP is stable enough to not crash with this app. I used on my Mac alone and it crashed. But you are guessing right: bad luck or something wrong with...with... EastWest! I absolutely believe there is a reason why pros use VEP and... even Cubase, that i hate (but with respect  ) How can someone use Cubase....


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Feb 19, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> btw the guy did not answer, so i have NOTHING to thanks haha. If he said he learned something there, so say it... I learned for example that some people need 1000 tracks, and are great salesmen.


Clearly you have nothing to learn, so why should I tell you anything? You're the world expert right? Good luck getting any help from this community going forward.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 19, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Clearly you have nothing to learn, so why should I tell you anything? You're the world expert right? Good luck getting any help from this community going forward.


I asked you what did you learned on the video? If i did not care i would not have asked. If someone asks me what did i learned in some video, i am happy to tell. I don´t say " i learned enough", because it is so vague - unless i dont have time. But it looks you have time. So...What a passive agressive child. Ciao


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 19, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Interestingly, When I load CineStrings Core Legato in my DAW, I get pops-n-clicks due to their old scripting codes, but when I load the same patch into VE-Pro 7 Locally on my PC, it plays without any of the pops-n-clicks issues. I'm sure that VE-Pro 7 does have some efficiency benefits when used locally with a DAW.


My reasoningfor technology is: *the less variants and mediators you have in the middle of the way between two devices or apps* , the better (unless you are JXL!).

But this is a more philosophical argument, not from being a tech person who tried all and readed the manuals...

So i believe it is better to try the limits with one computer first, principally if changes of setup can be demanding (unless you are JXL!)


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Feb 19, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> I asked you what did you learned on the video? If i did not care i would not have asked. If someone asks me what did i learned in some video, i am happy to tell. I don´t say " i learned enough", because it is so vague - unless i dont have time. But it looks you have time. So...What a passive agressive child. Ciao


Sounds like you're just a troll looking to be provocative. There's a lot of top notch, respected composers in this thread and you are acting ungrateful and downright rude.


----------



## samphony (Feb 19, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> your setup looks already complex, so wonder that you checked very well that connections are stable? principally mouse.
> 
> For example: i dont use logic remote because it is not 100% reliable regarding how it consumes power and usb connection. Anyway i need to find a “God” among usb hubs and cables, because 3 powered hubs still are unreliable here, unfortunately. But more than this, if your studio is fix and the connections and apps do not die, looks great to extend the cpus


Get the electron overhub. It’s the only hub type that works reliably.


----------



## tarantulis (Feb 22, 2022)

I'll play devil's advocate here and say that while I tried to incorporate VEP for many years, I eventually decided that having a big orchestral template on another machine was killing my flow. I want to tweak individual instruments too much to have to go into a remote desktop, scroll through VEP to find the thing, and then apply plugins or other changes that way. I also found that I'm not using the entire orchestra in every cue and thus it didn't make sense. Maybe if you've been doing this for a really long time and know exactly what you use and where you like everything....

For me, abandoning VEP completely and using a small template on a big machine was everything. Also, abandoning the idea of having every perceivable articulation in a single instrument, screw that. Just saved every orchestral instrument articulation as a Track Preset in Cubase, then every group with that articulation as its own Preset (I'm sure other DAWs have a similar way of doing it). That way, when I say "hey, I need tremolo violas" I just pull up the tremolo violas preset. Or "hey, I need legato woodwinds" and one preset loads them all in 5 seconds. Bam. That has helped my workflow tremendously this past year, to the point where I'll never go back to VEP even though I still have the slave machines.

Just the PRESSURE of having all your shit on another machine/screen made me afraid of having to go in there and tweak something. And god forbid if an instrument just wasn't playing for some reason, the NIGHTMARE of having to break my concentration and go in there all squinty-eyed to figure out the problem was just too much lol. And what if I want to get weird? Throw a low-pass filter on an instrument, some weird plugin effect? Well, if it's on the VEP machine, no way in hell I'll ever pursue that idea; it's a freaking MIDI track in my DAW, untouchable like the Mafia.

Anyway. Whatever keeps you engaged and benefits your workflow, do that.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Feb 22, 2022)

tarantulis said:


> I eventually decided that having a big orchestral template on another machine was killing my flow.


Yep. Ditching VEPro when I got my new Mac was almost liberating! Don’t miss it at all.


----------



## iMovieShout (Feb 23, 2022)

tarantulis said:


> I'll play devil's advocate here and say that while I tried to incorporate VEP for many years, I eventually decided that having a big orchestral template on another machine was killing my flow. I want to tweak individual instruments too much to have to go into a remote desktop, scroll through VEP to find the thing, and then apply plugins or other changes that way. I also found that I'm not using the entire orchestra in every cue and thus it didn't make sense. Maybe if you've been doing this for a really long time and know exactly what you use and where you like everything....
> 
> For me, abandoning VEP completely and using a small template on a big machine was everything. Also, abandoning the idea of having every perceivable articulation in a single instrument, screw that. Just saved every orchestral instrument articulation as a Track Preset in Cubase, then every group with that articulation as its own Preset (I'm sure other DAWs have a similar way of doing it). That way, when I say "hey, I need tremolo violas" I just pull up the tremolo violas preset. Or "hey, I need legato woodwinds" and one preset loads them all in 5 seconds. Bam. That has helped my workflow tremendously this past year, to the point where I'll never go back to VEP even though I still have the slave machines.
> 
> ...


This is really interesting. 
I'll have to go and play with Cubase's track preset features and see for myself. I've x12 VEP7 servers and have used VEPro since version5, and over the last 3 or 4 years I've become very used to the workflow, and have no complaints (except for the astronomical electrical bills).
The problem with running a full orchestral template drawn from 18+ different libraries (plus loads more libraries), has been the template size, which currently sits at around 6400+ tracks just for orchestra, of which maybe 1000+ tracks are used for a big project. But running these on my PC workstation (dual CPU, 12TB NVMe, 512GB RAM) will still cause all sorts of audio and latency issues - hence the need for VEPro servers. I disable the instruments in Cubase that not in use to save on CPU load, latency and memory etc.

So whilst I think the presets option could work for smaller projects / templates and sketching, I'm not sure how this will help anyone utilising and running super-large templates.

Still I've not played around with Cubase track presets for years - so I'm going to have to play around with it in the next day or two.

Thanks


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Feb 23, 2022)

jpb007.uk said:


> So whilst I think the presets option could work for smaller projects / templates and sketching, I'm not sure how this will help anyone utilising and running super-large templates.


I think it's just a matter of shifting your train of thought. I mean really, you don't _need _6400 tracks loaded and ready to go....let alone a project with 1000+. After doing this as long as you have, I'm pretty sure you know what instruments/libraries you'll be be using for a given project (probably an average of 150 or less). As you mentioned, you're paying a small fortune to have those slaves running, just for the sake of having your arsenal of VI's loaded....most of which won't even be called upon. A disabled Cubase template would allow your 6400 tracks to be readily available, and they only load as needed.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 23, 2022)

tarantulis said:


> I'll play devil's advocate here and say that while I tried to incorporate VEP for many years, I eventually decided that having a big orchestral template on another machine was killing my flow. I want to tweak individual instruments too much to have to go into a remote desktop, scroll through VEP to find the thing, and then apply plugins or other changes that way. I also found that I'm not using the entire orchestra in every cue and thus it didn't make sense. Maybe if you've been doing this for a really long time and know exactly what you use and where you like everything....
> 
> For me, abandoning VEP completely and using a small template on a big machine was everything. Also, abandoning the idea of having every perceivable articulation in a single instrument, screw that. Just saved every orchestral instrument articulation as a Track Preset in Cubase, then every group with that articulation as its own Preset (I'm sure other DAWs have a similar way of doing it). That way, when I say "hey, I need tremolo violas" I just pull up the tremolo violas preset. Or "hey, I need legato woodwinds" and one preset loads them all in 5 seconds. Bam. That has helped my workflow tremendously this past year, to the point where I'll never go back to VEP even though I still have the slave machines.
> 
> ...


I absolutely can imagine this all! For this reason i posted the question  The less unnecessary variables the best; the thing is that some of these variables promise something great... like VEP. 

I am very "idealist" and have tendence to plan too much when i have chance to be creative with this (but i am not a person you could call "cold planed") So I also plan things or get obsessed solving problems for futures that do not come. But is part of the proccess, and something we learn and carry in the pocket for later.

At the end i will do a poll. Since my VEP crashed already in the demo version (OMG!) i am still sharing your opinion. 

And also i am routing articulations to groups and to stream deck as well. BUt it is a whole beauty when tech, mind, and music integrates properly!


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 23, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Sounds like you're just a troll looking to be provocative. There's a lot of top notch, respected composers in this thread and you are acting ungrateful and downright rude.


Rude why, how? And who am I? What is rude for you? How much love do you need now? You call the op of the threat a troll and he is the rude ? haha!!! Please don´t follow this thread if you are upset so easy. I don´t want to walk in egg shells to give my opinions about THINGS. Meanwhile, people offended me personally already. The amount of desperate people is insane today.

If there are top-notch composers following there, so it may have with the thread to do as well? the more you should respect my opnions and my questions, because they are here because of something I said at the very start. 

I am very rational and this may be provocative, but you (and similar colleagues) don´t have to rule over my use of words and reason. If you all all get offended by me criticizing or not licking the ass of someone, your problem, I am good here and appreciate all the other participants who focus more on the concepts, and less on mimimi.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 23, 2022)

samphony said:


> Get the electron overhub. It’s the only hub type that works reliably.


tHis here ? https://www.thomann.de/gb/elektron_overhub.htm

thx

i gonna buy before some other people out there say i am rude for not considering your suggestion haha


----------



## Mike Greene (Feb 23, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> @Emanuel Fróes you're the original poster and you received 4 pages of really useful advice from other composers who took time out of their day to try to help you with your questions regarding VEPro. It's so great to see people helping each other isn't it? And if you don't like a piece of advice or video that's suggested, saying thank you and moving on feels like the appropriate response.





Emanuel Fróes said:


> Well, i gave thanks already, and likes. And who are you to be my papa? Say thanks for me creating the thread then. Am i obligated to like the video? I liked that he suggests something , but not the video. If it were me egal, i would not even keep talking to him. By the way, you don´t have to stop your busy day to rule over children, but thanks for the moral supervision.





Emanuel Fróes said:


> btw the guy did not answer, so i have NOTHING to thanks haha. If he said he learned something there, so say it... I learned for example that some people need 1000 tracks, and are great salesmen.





Emanuel Fróes said:


> I asked you what did you learned on the video? If i did not care i would not have asked. If someone asks me what did i learned in some video, i am happy to tell. I don´t say " i learned enough", because it is so vague - unless i dont have time. But it looks you have time. So...What a passive agressive child. Ciao





Emanuel Fróes said:


> Wow,this is a wonderful performance! thanks for all the attention. Sorry for disappointing your high standards





Emanuel Fróes said:


> Rude why, how? And who am I? What is rude for you? How much love do you need now? You call the op of the threat a troll and he is the rude ? haha!!! Please don´t follow this thread if you are upset so easy. I don´t want to walk in egg shells to give my opinions about THINGS. Meanwhile, people offended me personally already. The amount of desperate people is insane today.
> 
> If there are top-notch composers following there, so it may have with the thread to do as well? the more you should respect my opnions and my questions, because they are here because of something I said at the very start.
> 
> I am very rational and this may be provocative, but you don´t have do rule over my use of words and reason. If you all all get offended by me criticizing or not licking the ass of someone, your problem, I am good here and appreciate all the other participants who focus more on the concepts, and less on mimimi.





Emanuel Fróes said:


> i gonna buy before some other people out there say i am rude for not considering your suggestion haha



Emanuel, speaking as a moderator, you need to chill out here. If you're having problems with this many members (all of whom I know to be reasonable people), then you have to consider maybe some of the issues are you, not all of them.

So all you need to do is respond politely, and I guarantee they will be nice, too. Thanks.


----------



## jononotbono (Feb 23, 2022)

Ben said:


> Yes. One VEP instance per instrument - and I guess you are running a few hundred instruments - will hurt performance quite a lot.


I tried that out for a laugh a few years a go. Did every patch of Spitfire Albion UIST (nearly 600). Technology wasn't happy with me 😂


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 23, 2022)

samphony said:


> Get the electron overhub. It’s the only hub type that works reliably.


It is?

What type of hub is it? Not disputing, just curious what you mean.

The one I have seems to be fine, and it's very convenient (7 x USB 3 [not 3.1, didn't need it] + 3 USB charging ports):


----------



## jononotbono (Feb 23, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It is?
> 
> What type of hub is it? Not disputing, just curious what you mean.
> 
> The one I have seems to be fine, and it's very convenient (7 x USB 3 [not 3.1, didn't need it] + 3 USB charging ports):



Nah. This is chicken feed conversation about USB Hubs. We need to rope in a master of research that spent hundreds of years in the Thomann battlefield finding the ONLY USB "hub". @charlieclouser I'm sorry to bother darling but what was that rack mounted USB behemoth that you found on your travels a while back?


----------



## charlieclouser (Feb 23, 2022)

jononotbono said:


> Nah. This is chicken feed conversation about USB Hubs. We need to rope in a master of research that spent hundreds of years in the Thomann battlefield finding the ONLY USB "hub". @charlieclouser I'm sorry to bother darling but what was that rack mounted USB behemoth that you found on your travels a while back?


This beastie right here:









Swissonic USB Hub 1916


USB 3.0 Hub and Charging Station With power switch, Front: 1x USB 3.0 Type B and 16x USB 3.0 Type A with status LED, Backside: 1x USB 2.0 Type A, Format: 19" / 1 HE, Weight: 3.52 kg




www.thomannmusic.com





But I've since gotten a couple of bog-standard Vantec 10-port aluminum USB3 hubs off of Amazon for other spots in the rig and these are working just fine as well:









10-Port USB 3.0 Aluminum Hub


10-Port USB 3.0 Aluminum Hub (All Data/Charging BC 1.2, up to 1.5A), 12V/5A/60W Premium Power Adapter The Vantec Link 10-Port USB 3.0 Aluminum Hub is a simple and easy to use hub loaded with many features. This ergonomically designed Hub uses strong but light-weight machined aluminum casing for...




www.vantecusa.com


----------



## jononotbono (Feb 23, 2022)

Excellent! You are most reliable! If only USB was like you.

Let's not discuss how disgusting HDMI is. Yet. Unbelievable!


----------



## samphony (Feb 23, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It is? What type of hub is it? Not disputing, just curious what you mean. The one I have seems to be fine, and it's very convenient (7 x USB 3 [not 3.1, didn't need it] + 3 USB charging ports):



Hey Nick. 

I have around 8-9 hubs which failed over time. I have a sit stand desk and all peripherals needed to be connected to the mac in the rack. The moment I switched on the studio and booted my main mac a all previous hubs randomly didn’t connected the lmk4 or the faderport or the rme remote. I was close to giving up and one of the Logic engineers suggested this hub since then I’m happy. If this should fail too I’ll try the swisssonic charly got from thomann.


----------



## iMovieShout (Feb 24, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I think it's just a matter of shifting your train of thought. I mean really, you don't _need _6400 tracks loaded and ready to go....let alone a project with 1000+. After doing this as long as you have, I'm pretty sure you know what instruments/libraries you'll be be using for a given project (probably an average of 150 or less). As you mentioned, you're paying a small fortune to have those slaves running, just for the sake of having your arsenal of VI's loaded....most of which won't even be called upon. A disabled Cubase template would allow your 6400 tracks to be readily available, and they only load as needed.


A bit of trying out the track preset feature today in Nuendo 11. In principle it looks good, but it doesn't appear to save track colours (which I use to search and manipulate with Lemur), and it doesn't appear to save routing (also very important). I wonder what else Track Presets doesn't do??


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Feb 24, 2022)

jpb007.uk said:


> A bit of trying out the track preset feature today in Nuendo 11. In principle it looks good, but it doesn't appear to save track colours (which I use to search and manipulate with Lemur), and it doesn't appear to save routing (also very important). I wonder what else Track Presets doesn't do??


Not sure what the track preset thing does, but have you tried a disabled track template?


----------



## iMovieShout (Feb 24, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Not sure what the track preset thing does, but have you tried a disabled track template?


Yes my entire template uses the disable / enable method. Using Liine Lemur to do this and navigate the template etc. Works well though having played around with Track Presets today - this could be the answer to having a massive template that even with only a few instruments enabled can be fairly cumbersome. 
Having scouted around YouTube and Google, I think the Track Preset approach still has a way to go before it can be a serious contender to the more traditional massive template.

Thanks JS


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 26, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> Emanuel, speaking as a moderator, you need to chill out here. If you're having problems with this many members (all of whom I know to be reasonable people), then you have to consider maybe some of the issues are you, not all of them.
> 
> So all you need to do is respond politely, and I guarantee they will be nice, too. Thanks.


No, of course not Mr. Greene This pattern of thinking is the best source of evil, because of course majority/minority has nothing to do with doing something wrong. I don't care if someone is reasonable or not, I reply to a precise fact in front of me. If they attack me personally after this, they are not reasonable anymore, and anyone who comes to contribute to this, wants just to create trouble. The reasonable people i know here have more to do than to be offended so easily when they not get the validation they need (probably as musicians?).

It is all written. My statements are all about the posted question. My questions were also ignored, what is a first sign of hostility. Post there where i did a crime, please, do me this favor.

If someone felt offended, it is also not your business. If you they do not like my posts, follow other thread, because their personal attack , like disliking every post of mine, does not help. I invite you to defend your statement with a quote, principally if you want to moderate, otherwise, i acknowledged your precipitated opinion but leave me in peace ✌️ 

I come here to work or distract myself, not to walk in egg shells to say if i dislike something. I also don't want to give fake aknowledgments to posts i did not even read or had time to reply to.

Also this group thing, mentioning "my people" sounds very coward and does not touch the precise matter, one has to mention the group in order to have reason haha! I can also mention the " very important reasonable top notch people" who wrote me mails to not even lose time because if there were a true problem, the thread would not be so long already etc. 

If you are not able to have confrontation of ideas, and attack or mob personally don´t even reply to my threads. Or I have to report personal abuse to "my people" from the site as well, what is not the way I like to do, because I tend to solve things without screaming to ad more people to some issue (i.e. not like a child does)

k.r


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 26, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> This beastie right here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did already upgraded to a powered hub with many inputs. But technically, what do you look for when buying a usb hub, more than the fact that has power supply, usb 3.0? It is a misterious world for me, and since i plug the whoe world in the computer, i am not sure if some problems are due to it.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 26, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> I did already upgraded to a powered hub with many inputs. But technically, what do you look for when buying a usb hub, more than the fact that has power supply, usb 3.0? It is a misterious world for me, and since i plug the whoe world in the computer, i am not sure if some problems are due to it.


precisely for Mac


stigc56 said:


> I run VEPro7 on a MacPro 5.1 and on a PC. Although the PC is irritating, due to the windows thing I find it much faster and more powerfull. Both machines are set up to auto boot with VEPro7 and to load each their templates. It works fine - well almost! But I think the routing of the audio back to the DAW, especially when working in Cubendo gets really messy. I just finished a score with only 50 tracks, 90% of them running from the servers, and I can't count the times that I can't find the right audio returns, and all 900 tracks in my template suddenly is displayed, because the mixer is linked to the arrangement page, and click, click .....! You can say that I can't blame VEPro for that , but nevertheless, lets face it Cubendo isn't easy to set up for a server based studio, it takes forever, and it IS convoluted to work with.
> I'm now testing Studio One, and also in this matter it's much more clear than Cubendo.
> To me all those things also have to be considered, when you look for the pro and cons for using either a disabled track template OR a template based around a VEPro server.
> 
> and ps. We really should use the therm servers and not sl... Or is it just my "soft Danish temperament"?


i personally use the term "assistent". Server is also better! I called it slaves to speak the language of people before some people there misunderstand me or call the moderator again )

The multi computer setup has a history, and a charm. So we saw that some important composers used it. Then we discover that there is some affordable pcs out there and VSL... In this transition i guess there are some important misunderstandings.

Meanwhile another important thing: the same important composers are changing to other kind of setup, in one computer (like in the mentioned link of this thread). So my question comes in this sense: one has to observe well if (1) one really can adapt to it in terms of work flow, and secondly (2) if one meets the true hardware/software requirements of this kind of setup (as those "important composers" did). Otherwise it may be something incomplete. Based on what i readed until now (and no time to read all!) some people who experienced disavantages have with these points (1) and (2) to do.

Personally i may risk something investing in the VEP it and gonna use in just one Mac, but from there i see. Since they offer some free instruments, it looks like a win-win. But i will never forget that it crashed already as demo version, using Hollywood Orchestrator! Man!!!!


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 26, 2022)

Ben said:


> I have analyzed many crash-reports over the last 2 years, and in ~90% of all cases VEP-crashes are related to plugin crashs. We can't do much about these, but if you send us the crashdumps / system-id (if you get a crash-popup), we are lookign into this and in most cases can tell you if VEP, or and which plugin caused the crash.
> 
> 
> In general we don't recommend using Microsoft RDP for remote access, as it is known to cause certain plugins to crash within VEP (OpenGL driver crash). In such cases we recommend to use alternative remote desktop solutions.





Ben said:


> If this is reproducable (happens all the time if you do something specific), please send us a brief mail with the steps to reproduce the issue to: [email protected]
> if we can reproduce the issue it's easy to fix - if this is a VEP issue and not a crash inside of a plugin.


Thx very much! Yes i did on that day. I send report and also a msg in the info box of the crash. I really think it was more about bad luck, since I believe that you devs take stability very seriously, and THIS is what the app is about ...performance. I can test later and write another mail to tell what happened. I did not try nothing yet, and finish another work. I would like to extend the demo if you are kind, because after the crash i left so. I want VEP exactly because i doubt about the performance of Opus and Logic with the SSD alone, but meanwhile I am trying other things to improve performance, and principally trying to understand how performance in Logic Pro works, and what affects mostly what.

K.r.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Feb 26, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> No, of course not Mr. Greene This pattern of thinking is the best source of evil, because of course majority/minority has nothing to do with doing something wrong. I don't care if someone is reasonable or not, I reply to a precise fact in front of me. If they attack me personally after this, they are not reasonable anymore, and anyone who comes to contribute to this, wants just to create trouble. The reasonable people i know here have more to do than to be offended so easily when they not get the validation they need (probably as musicians?).
> 
> It is all written. My statements are all about the posted question. My questions were also ignored, what is a first sign of hostility. Post there where i did a crime, please, do me this favor.
> 
> ...


If only you could see the hypocrisy in your post.

Anyways, I hope you find a solution to your issue.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 26, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> If only you could see the hypocrisy in your post.
> 
> Anyways, I hope you find a solution to your issue.


"My issue" means the my issue , the issue of many people here, and a relevant professional question, it is not something urgent. So you can be sure I am ok with VEP. 

Now someone there created an actual ISSUE. I started a conversation about templates, and someone comes to moralize over me making observations on the P. Thomson VIDEO, then comes you calling me a TROLL or _creating a public discussion on a personal level after ignoring me replying with a question* related to content *_ of the thread. This lacks of any empathy and professional elegance, jumping in-group over me, and is the behavior typical of the worst animals, when their brain is triggered by some resistence.

You are the troll in this case, while imagining that the starter of the thread is a troll, or even mentioning this as you did. You still come back to provoque more, calling my statement hypocritical.

Anyone who raises some objection may be then suspect of being a troll now in this world of view? I am very far away from this mindset, and it is useless in my thread. Your contribution - so much as the first Papst of the "thanks" moral, who started this - is therefore useless, not friendly, and affected the vibe of this thread.

I guess i told you already you are not welcome to speak to whom you don´t like, or principally whom you suspect to be a troll, or say hypocritical te things. Please care about your life and forget me, i never talked here to you, and your answers did not catch my attention enough. If you want my attention and is not enough other people talking with each other and the nice conversation raised there, it is your problem. 

Unless you change your mind, y_ou (and similar colleagues) are not welcome talking to me, because I can´t say what i want to say about THINGS when talking to you, without you (and similar colleagues) creating unnecessary hostility. _I hope you understand and I don´t need any further action.

My interest here is to stay in touch with some friends of mine, my students, and create some constructive investigations. Thanks.


----------



## charlieclouser (Feb 26, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> I did already upgraded to a powered hub with many inputs. But technically, what do you look for when buying a usb hub, more than the fact that has power supply, usb 3.0? It is a misterious world for me, and since i plug the whoe world in the computer, i am not sure if some problems are due to it.


I used to buy only hubs from "big name" brands, like Belkin or D-Link, and I have some Belkin hubs that are 25 years old and still work fine, although they are USB v1 and so they are not much use today....

But in the past few years it seems like even the weird chinese brands you find on Amazon, like Anker and Vantec are fine. I look for a metal housing, only because I use screws or 3m Dual-Lock (super velcro) to attach them underneath my desk and the Dual-Lock is so strong that some plastic hubs will split in half when trying to remove them!

I also look for a nice beefy power supply, preferably the "bump in the wire" kind instead of the "wall wart" kind, because my power strips get crowded and with the "bump in the wire" kind I can Dual-Lock the "bump" part somewhere out of the way and then it plugs into the power strip with a normal 2-prong cord.

One thing I didn't watch out for until it was too late: one brand of metal 13-port hub I bought had a power switch that was NOT a "switch on, switch off" type, it was the kind where it just clicks when you push it, but doesn't stay in the ON or OFF position, it was a software-based toggle. So when the room was powered down and then powered up again, the hub would revert to the OFF state! This meant that I had to crawl under the desk and manually push the button each time I powered up my room. Not good. So I got rid of those.

But those Vantec ones I got are just as good as the big rack mount Swissonic one. I have all the ports full and no issues with hard drives or anything else. I even have other smaller hubs that hold my iLok keys and stuff daisy-chained off of the big ones with no problems.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 26, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> I used to buy only hubs from "big name" brands, like Belkin or D-Link, and I have some Belkin hubs that are 25 years old and still work fine, although they are USB v1 and so they are not much use today....
> 
> But in the past few years it seems like even the weird chinese brands you find on Amazon, like Anker and Vantec are fine. I look for a metal housing, only because I use screws or 3m Dual-Lock (super velcro) to attach them underneath my desk and the Dual-Lock is so strong that some plastic hubs will split in half when trying to remove them!
> 
> ...


i use Enter, with on/off (why to use this? to cause problems!) and this Azebe there, that was a mistake to buy regarding design.

For any case, i toke notice of this option you said. If you have all full, and for music, looks good. But remember: in my case i can´t technically blame the hub yet. Sometimes i just use too much, like two cams, OBS, Logic Pro, ZOmm, Ipad pluged in, all togheter. 

Regarding CC i thought i had a USB problem, but actually it has more with some corruption in my template, that makes any track selection or change in the track very slow. Now i verified that it is slow even with core audio off, and the buil in templates work good. Welcome to this wonderful world...

BUt the hint in matter hubs is this, as it seems: POWER SUPLY. To understand how much power it takes, how fast etc. Is not by chance that hubs without it work very baddly. Now: i have 3 hubs, and interactions between them and the Mac inputs is a mystery for me. I have to ask some nerd of this field  If i remember there is also something like "use less adapters in the way" law. MOre reasons to hate Apple (just in this regard....)


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 26, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> i use Enter, with on/off (why to use this? to cause problems!) and this Azebe there, that was a mistake to buy regarding design.
> 
> For any case, i toke notice of this option you said. If you have all full, and for music, looks good. But remember: in my case i can´t technically blame the hub yet. Sometimes i just use too much, like two cams, OBS, Logic Pro, ZOmm, Ipad pluged in, all togheter.
> 
> ...



*4 power, 8 usb , the picture sucks


----------



## charlieclouser (Feb 26, 2022)

Here is what I have plugged into two of the four available USB ports on my Mac Pro 2103 6,1 cylinder, all working fine:

• 10-port Vantec metal USB3 hub.

• 7-port D-Link plastic USB3 hub > Belkin 7-port plastic USB2 hub > passive USB>Cat5>USB extension cable > Belkin 7-port plastic USB2 hub (across the room in the guitar fx rack).

So on that second chain there's THREE hubs in daisy-chain, with one of those janky Cat5 USB extension cables in between the second and third hubs, and somehow it works. Although the only stuff on the hub at the end of the extension cable are USB-MIDI devices like Pro-2 synth, Karp 2600, etc. - no audio devices or hard drives etc.

And of course the Virus TI doesn't work in any configuration except with a three-foot, gold-tipped, dual-ferrite-bead equipped USB cable plugged directly from the Virus to the computer, and even then it only works half the time!


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 26, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Here is what I have plugged into two of the four available USB ports on my Mac Pro 2103 6,1 cylinder, all working fine:
> 
> • 10-port Vantec metal USB3 hub.
> 
> ...


really cool, if i get true usb problems later it will be impossible to forget to consider your setup! 

Btw I think now that i may not use the same hub as charging device, even if it is sold for this. 

Maybe another rule to consider : forget to use all the possibilities as the sellers offer, they have to show the product in its limit, but we don't need to use the hub in its limit, but the MAc in its limit  idk . Anyway is wonderful if you are using all ports smoothly


----------



## charlieclouser (Feb 26, 2022)

I have pushed USB cables and hubs to the limit for a long time. Doing things like using a powered hub as a repeater / extender so that I could go beyond the 15-foot limit of USB1 cables. For many years I used a Belkin 7-port powered USBv1 hub in between two 15-foot cables to get a 30-foot reach from my computer rack to my workstation, and it all worked fine. But that was just for MIDI interface, keyboard+trackball, and other low-bandwidth stuff years ago. 

In other studios I've set up rigs using those super-expensive Gefen range extenders, and they always worked.... as they should since they were usually $1,000 or so! 

But now that we can use HDMI for display connections at least that part of the problem is solved, for less than $50 per cable. No more $400 30-foot DVI-DL cables for me! If only USB-C / Thunderbolt4 would have a longer cable limit....


----------



## Petter Rong (Feb 28, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> I have pushed USB cables and hubs to the limit for a long time. Doing things like using a powered hub as a repeater / extender so that I could go beyond the 15-foot limit of USB1 cables. For many years I used a Belkin 7-port powered USBv1 hub in between two 15-foot cables to get a 30-foot reach from my computer rack to my workstation, and it all worked fine. But that was just for MIDI interface, keyboard+trackball, and other low-bandwidth stuff years ago.
> 
> In other studios I've set up rigs using those super-expensive Gefen range extenders, and they always worked.... as they should since they were usually $1,000 or so!
> 
> But now that we can use HDMI for display connections at least that part of the problem is solved, for less than $50 per cable. No more $400 30-foot DVI-DL cables for me! If only USB-C / Thunderbolt4 would have a longer cable limit....


I have barely any idea what the thread was originally about, but I hope I'm not fuzzing things up by asking this:

Any recommendations for a simple single TB3/TB4 solution for 3 (or perhaps 4) Full HD HDMI displays? Doing some research to make a docking-station for my new 14" MB M1 Pro (Not gonna lie, heavily inspired by your 3+1 setup that I saw in one of the Hammers tutorial videos 😉). Would love something that could just connect with one cable, but I have no idea where we're at with the docking-technology or if this is even possible


----------



## charlieclouser (Feb 28, 2022)

Petter Rong said:


> I have barely any idea what the thread was originally about, but I hope I'm not fuzzing things up by asking this:
> 
> Any recommendations for a simple single TB3/TB4 solution for 3 (or perhaps 4) Full HD HDMI displays? Doing some research to make a docking-station for my new 14" MB M1 Pro (Not gonna lie, heavily inspired by your 3+1 setup that I saw in one of the Hammers tutorial videos 😉). Would love something that could just connect with one cable, but I have no idea where we're at with the docking-technology or if this is even possible


I don't use a docking station of any kind, so I'm no expert - but from reading other folks' issues with various brands it seems that CalDigit and OWC are ones that work well with Mac, and I think OWC has a new big boy TB4 / USB-C dock that came out recently. 

An odd number of displays is the only way to go if you don't want a big old bezel dead-center in a two-display setup, so I've always had 3, 5, or 7 (!!!) displays in my rigs. But of my three, only two (center and right) are on my main Logic DAW rig, the left one is on a separate computer that is my ProTools stem / layback recorder. So, dock recommendations I have no first hand experience with....


----------



## jononotbono (Feb 28, 2022)

Regarding my post about having a laugh and seeing what every individual patch of UIST was like in VEPro...

This is the real estate damage now using the multis instead of using individual tracks per articulations in Cubase. And absolutely not having each art per instance of VEPro... try it at own risk 😂 I've always wanted to be able to access every patch of UIST but that library is such a mountain it makes it difficult to navigate. Now, I've programmed every patch to be used with a touch screen, I click on each track and every art shows up on thy touch screen. Much more manageable (for 600ish patches). This is the way 😂


----------



## jbuhler (Feb 28, 2022)

jononotbono said:


> Regarding my post about having a laugh and seeing what every individual patch of UIST was like in VEPro...
> 
> This is the real estate damage now using the multis instead of using individual tracks per articulations in Cubase. And absolutely not having each art per instance of VEPro... try it at own risk 😂 I've always wanted to be able to access every patch of UIST but that library is such a mountain it makes it difficult to navigate. Now, I've programmed every patch to be used with a touch screen, I click on each track and every art shows up on thy touch screen. Much more manageable (for 600ish patches). This is the way 😂


SF will probably retire Uist and replace it with another orchestral effects library, but I really feel like Uist suffers more from an organizational deficit than any deficit of sound or playability.


----------



## jononotbono (Feb 28, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> but I really feel like Uist suffers more from an organizational deficit


I did say that right? Maybe I didn't. Totally agree! 
EDIT... What I meant to say is HOW FUCKIN DARE YOU NOT READ MY PREVIOUS POSTS?


----------



## jbuhler (Feb 28, 2022)

jononotbono said:


> I did say that right? Maybe I didn't. Totally agree!
> EDIT... What I meant to say is HOW FUCKIN DARE YOU NOT READ MY PREVIOUS POSTS?


Yes you said that! I was thinking more about Spitfire and what they might do about it. Whether they can fix it through new organization of their own or whether it requires a different approach to recording and designing patches to make it work. 

Sorry I wasn’t meaning to imply you hadn’t already said that Uist needs an organizational overhaul!


----------



## jononotbono (Feb 28, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> Yes you said that! I was thinking more about Spitfire and what they might do about it. Whether they can fix it through new organization of their own or whether it requires a different approach to recording and designing patches to make it work.
> 
> Sorry I wasn’t meaning to imply you hadn’t already said that Uist needs an organizational overhaul!


How dare you apologise. You NEVER apologise x


----------



## iMovieShout (Mar 1, 2022)

jononotbono said:


> Regarding my post about having a laugh and seeing what every individual patch of UIST was like in VEPro...
> 
> This is the real estate damage now using the multis instead of using individual tracks per articulations in Cubase. And absolutely not having each art per instance of VEPro... try it at own risk 😂 I've always wanted to be able to access every patch of UIST but that library is such a mountain it makes it difficult to navigate. Now, I've programmed every patch to be used with a touch screen, I click on each track and every art shows up on thy touch screen. Much more manageable (for 600ish patches). This is the way 😂


Yep - that's what I have !!


----------



## jononotbono (Mar 2, 2022)

jpb007.uk said:


> Yep - that's what I have !!


So, basically, now if I click on (for example) 

alb4 - BRS HI - Stings (Tonal) 1

My touch screen automatically displays the Articulation buttons and also contextual microphone positions. It does this for every track in my template. As you can see with the screen shot, instantly being able to access all of these Stings (Tonal) 1 articulations like this, means I don't need 18 tracks and is just an instant thing. When I use VEPro again, I'd set up the multis in VEPro and the touchscreen will work in exactly the same way.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt (Mar 12, 2022)

Just a random question about VEPro to avoid making a new thread -

if an instrument plugin like Kontakt or Opus crashes while being loaded into VEPro, does it still take down my Cubase project or is it potentially some kind of "safe-box" where only VEPro is affected and I can still save and reload my project while Kontakt crashed in VEPro?
Sounds a bit too good to be true, just a random hope/idea of mine  

If not it would be actually great if someone could invent such a "bridge" for both effect and instrument plugins. The biggest problem with crashes is loosing work IMO so something that would avoid that and tell you exactly what crashed would be amazing ofc.


----------



## zolhof (Mar 12, 2022)

DarkestShadow said:


> or is it potentially some kind of "safe-box" where only VEPro is affected and I can still save and reload my project while Kontakt crashed in VEPro?


That's exactly how it works, and why so many swear by VEPro. If the server crashes—which rarely does here, this thing is rock solid—you load it again, reconnect the instances in Cubase, and you are back on track without losing your MIDI data. The other way around is also true, if Cubase goes down, you don't have to reload samples, the server remains intact. And since you are hosting your samples externally, switching cues is as fast as opening a new Cubase project. Another great benefits: quick save times and keeping cpr file sizes down to a minimum.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Oct 3, 2022)

Loerpert said:


> VEP works great for templates, but since I work more dynamically, I like Audiogridder more.


this looks like very underrated! is a free substitute for VEP then ? loll


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Oct 3, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> Just a random question about VEPro to avoid making a new thread -
> 
> if an instrument plugin like Kontakt or Opus crashes while being loaded into VEPro, does it still take down my Cubase project or is it potentially some kind of "safe-box" where only VEPro is affected and I can still save and reload my project while Kontakt crashed in VEPro?
> Sounds a bit too good to be true, just a random hope/idea of mine
> ...


i had a typical opus crash now. If i can tell, the instance just disapear, you dont loose the whole VEP session. THe daw project should remain ok. I am new on this, but looks like a good point for VEP!


----------



## Loerpert (Oct 3, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> this looks like very underrated! is a free substitute for VEP then ? loll


Pretty much yes. But even better if you ask me!


----------



## Loerpert (Oct 3, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> i had a typical opus crash now. If i can tell, the instance just disapear, you dont loose the whole VEP session. THe daw project should remain ok. I am new on this, but looks like a good point for VEP!


I believe Audiogridder has such options as well


----------



## iMovieShout (Oct 4, 2022)

After trying Audiogridder and various others, I've decided to keep going with VEPro on our 12 servers.
Alas, it means forking out more £££ for iLok dongles !!!! Feels like we're having to deal with a new British Government and their silly tax tweaking. ie. Being taxed more to carry on using something we already have!!


----------



## Petter Rong (Oct 5, 2022)

Loerpert said:


> VEP works great for templates, but since I work more dynamically, I like Audiogridder more.


I know a lot of people iike to use VEP like a template (using the same instruments across multiple projects) but more often than not, I tweak instruments so that they are sounding specific to a project and don't like using the same instruments across multiple projects. Does Audiogridder have specific project recalls, or will it just operate like a virtual rack that stays the same across projects?


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Oct 6, 2022)

Petter Rong said:


> I know a lot of people iike to use VEP like a template (using the same instruments across multiple projects) but more often than not, I tweak instruments so that they are sounding specific to a project and don't like using the same instruments across multiple projects. Does Audiogridder have specific project recalls, or will it just operate like a virtual rack that stays the same across projectsassss


Audiogrider i dont use yet, but VSP will say you can save projects for each piece you compose, or save the data within the project, what is not clear for me yet


----------



## gsilbers (Oct 6, 2022)

I might have missed it in the 8 last pages but Apple wants you to work differently with Logic pro. Apple doesnt want you to use the "midi module" approach where you send 16 channels of midi to a module and returns the audio as a bus with other instruments. (ala VEP)
Apple wants you to have 1 instrument and thats it. With midi and audio. And for that to work, Logic does the ram dump and turn off/on and have their new AS computers.

Ive been using this approach. I believe also trevor morris started doing this with cubase... or at least everything in one very powerful computer.

I have too many issues with vep and do see it as an overcomplication, but at the same time i do see how others use it and they get along fine and they create music thats different from mine and thats fine.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Oct 6, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> I might have missed it in the 8 last pages but Apple wants you to work differently with Logic pro. Apple doesnt want you to use the "midi module" approach where you send 16 channels of midi to a module and returns the audio as a bus with other instruments. (ala VEP)
> Apple wants you to have 1 instrument and thats it. With midi and audio. And for that to work, Logic does the ram dump and turn off/on and have their new AS computers.
> 
> Ive been using this approach. I believe also trevor morris started doing this with cubase... or at least everything in one very powerful computer.
> ...


I also wonder if the channel thing makes more complicated when setting the score editor.

FOr now I am happy with the idea of having multiple Kontakt instances in one track, and the epic orchestra for me is a win win. I got the -40% teacher discount. But i guess i would doubt more, if i had to pay in full. I am ordering a mac studio 128 GB so my interesse is more about workflow. 


Being an long term advantage or not i can already say: at least in the transition phase it is a huge complication, because you have to rethink your workflow and favorite instruments again.

Additionaly, it annoys me that it just does not open directly on the project as we left, i have to open the server project file again. With stram deck i have to press two time.

I wish it opens from the plugin button in Logic Pro, it would be better if it behaves to close as a plugin in Logic Pro does as possible. THe auto raise function is not clear for me, i have to see if it is a bug that sometimes the server does not shows automatically .

If they can bring all in one window, and that we just have to open the daw and the VEP opens coppled to it, is better, but i wonder if it is technically possible. To much windows looks that we are piloting a plane, not composing.


The workaround is creating a multi action button

When using in one computer I also have doubts if i want to restart my computer and wait so long the VEP to load. I had my template with tracks off on Logic Pro and this was ok. If you have a computer just for VEP looks very interesting to have everything on all the time.

BUt the question that does not silence is: are composer still using it? I can mention TRevor MOrris as you said, and others. JXL never opened VEP in his tutorials, but i wonder how then he routes his daw to so many computers?

I wonder how is VSL planing the future of this, since computers are getting better. I guess they can improve regarding especialized cinematic-classical workflow, and they can even create their alternative and own daw for classical film music composers, not having djs and "beat making" as main priority, and creating easy solutions for the well know problems . I have anyway the feeling VSL is very ahead and will be the leader regarding classical daw composition

For now this is my impression: *it complicates a lot until you find the "minimalist" spot in the workflow!* But the idea of having many kontakt instances in one track, and the epic orchestra, and some possibilities of different workflow opened by VEP, and the awesome epic orchestra, this makes it a win-win aside of these weak points to copnsider , considering i bought for ca 120 Euros.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Oct 6, 2022)

Loerpert said:


> I believe Audiogridder has such options as well


Yes I loved this option, but did not install yet. Unfortunelly I got notice after buying the VEP

but as i said on last post, for me the Epic ORch and my discount is anyway a huge advantage , it is not only a promotion, but something that is professionally usable - if you can compose for these limits of course. 

I still have faith that i find some smart use of VEP... ANd hope AUdiogrid does not complicate my mind now and makes me regret lol


----------



## rgames (Oct 6, 2022)

One thing I often hear about VEPro that is definitely not true is that it's not useful for instruments that you tweak.

I have a huge orchestral template and I tweak things all the time, even with everything decoupled. You do it through MIDI learn. Anything that can be MIDI learned can be tweaked and saved as MIDI data in the main project while retaining all file size, save time, processing efficiency and other advantages afforded by VEPro.

VEPro definitely provides tremendous workflow improvements for large templates. The value diminishes with project size. For example, if I'm writing something with just strings and piano I'll just run that entirely within the Cubase project without linking to my VEpro template.

I've tried disabled tracks in Cubase and find them much more cumbersome than VEPro with instances for each section of each library. I have go-tos that load up every time but empty instances linked to my Cubase template for things I use less often. When I need them I load up the instance in VEPro and save a dedicated version of the template, if necessary. I find that process to be much quicker and better-performing than disabled tracks.


----------



## gsilbers (Oct 6, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> I also wonder if the channel thing makes more complicated when setting the score editor.
> 
> FOr now I am happy with the idea of having multiple Kontakt instances in one track, and the epic orchestra for me is a win win. I got the -40% teacher discount. But i guess i would doubt more, if i had to pay in full. I am ordering a mac studio 128 GB so my interesse is more about workflow.
> 
> ...



If I’m not mistaken there’s a couple of junkie xl videos where he shows how he sets it up. He uses several servers.

They could have 10 gigabite Ethernet and they get midi and audio to and from server to cubase and then goes out to pro tools for stems. 
Or sometimes the setup is via madi for the audio side where vep sends the audio stems via madi to pro tools or their daw/cubase. 

I think some even use a second pro tools system as a mixer where it gets stems from several servers and does a mix down and then it goes to a separate pro tools for stem recording
Or maybe one pro tools to mix the audio and stem into itself. 

Yes, the workflow for simple setups is a little tricky sometimes. Logic only lets you use 16midi at once per Plug-in. So I do the many many tracks I have into 16 break outs it’s a lot of tracks. Not as much as every single one separate but still. Takes a while to “connect” or load etc. 
If you search here for: dewman logic auv3 . you find his template where it’s all midi so up to 256 or 1000 midi tracks all to one instance of vep instead of many 16 ones. The audio can be routed back as you wish/per stem. 
It’s another alternative.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Oct 6, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> If I’m not mistaken there’s a couple of junkie xl videos where he shows how he sets it up. He uses several servers.
> 
> They could have 10 gigabite Ethernet and they get midi and audio to and from server to cubase and then goes out to pro tools for stems.
> Or sometimes the setup is via madi for the audio side where vep sends the audio stems via madi to pro tools or their daw/cubase.
> ...


I have to see it again. I remember there is one studio tour where he shows the computers, but I also remember that he opens all plugins in the Cubase session?

Pro Tools is for Christian Henson the "Sauron" as he says... But for me whatever created Sibelius app is the Gollum


----------



## Loerpert (Oct 6, 2022)

Petter Rong said:


> I know a lot of people iike to use VEP like a template (using the same instruments across multiple projects) but more often than not, I tweak instruments so that they are sounding specific to a project and don't like using the same instruments across multiple projects. Does Audiogridder have specific project recalls, or will it just operate like a virtual rack that stays the same across projects?


It will basically keep the state of all your Audiogridder instances saved inside the project, the same way it works with normal VSTi's. So you can save and open projects with AG instances, tweak them however you like, and that's all you need to worry about. I really recommend checking it out, since it's free and easy to install.


----------



## iMovieShout (Oct 7, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> If I’m not mistaken there’s a couple of junkie xl videos where he shows how he sets it up. He uses several servers.
> 
> They could have 10 gigabite Ethernet and they get midi and audio to and from server to cubase and then goes out to pro tools for stems.
> Or sometimes the setup is via madi for the audio side where vep sends the audio stems via madi to pro tools or their daw/cubase.
> ...



Here's a video I did of our studio which has VEPro running on 12 servers, for our master template of 14,400 tracks.

Studio Setup VEPro


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Oct 8, 2022)

iMovieShout said:


> Here's a video I did of our studio which has VEPro running on 12 servers, for our master template of 14,400 tracks.
> 
> Studio Setup VEPro


Wow this looks monumen haha. Let’s see

for now i just can say it that on my intel mac 32 gb just looks like unnecessary delays e complications.

I am austonished how the tutorials on youtube are so incomplete, if you dont follow step by step blindly or have another issue you waste many hours again in some mistake

to get used to this save mechanism takes a while, and i guess I already can’t load a template i started, it is not safe to know what is auto saved and how


there is also this VEP service app, that looks the same like the other, i am confused


----------



## Fitz (Oct 12, 2022)

14000 tracks is ridiculously massive. I would say counter to writing music effectively since there’s so much information on the screen, even with using Visibility agent shortcuts in the PLE


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Oct 13, 2022)

Fitz said:


> 14000 tracks is ridiculously massive. I would say counter to writing music effectively since there’s so much information on the screen, even with using Visibility agent shortcuts in the PLE


some people forget that the template (and principally "template apps, like VEP and DIvisi Mate) was suposed to make the work better, easier and faster 

but which concept of "easier , better and faster" do composers have?

regarding this you might be interested on my last vidoe on youtube (on template,improvisation and daw)


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Oct 13, 2022)

Fitz said:


> 14000 tracks is ridiculously massive. I would say counter to writing music effectively since there’s so much information on the screen, even with using Visibility agent shortcuts in the PLE


what is PLE?


----------



## iMovieShout (Oct 13, 2022)

Yes exactly. Without the Lemur touchscreens, it would be impossible to quickly navigate such a large template. And to load al the instruments up in active state on the 12 VEPro servers does take a few hours. But the template was only ever made to be a starting point for new projects, and we use it to decide which instruments we want to use for a new project. This is the same approach used by Hans Zimmer, Bleeding Fingers Studios and others.
That said, with the advent of very large (4TB and 8TB) cheap and fast NVMe SSD drives, I have started to transfer the big template on to my workstation PC, which is faster and more powerful than our studio servers. This means I can create a project palette of instruments in VEPro faster, and once I have my project template, I can load it much faster. I'm still using Lemur but will port this over to TouchOSC next year, as Lemur is no longer supported and doesn't always perform very well.


----------



## Freudon33 (Oct 13, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> what is PLE?


the PLE is Cubase's logical project editor
which allows you to configure actions to display the desired tracks
and if like me we end up with 5000 tracks disabled
it's much easier and faster to find
and all this coupled with a touch screen and just control buttons is the best


----------



## Freudon33 (Oct 13, 2022)

iMovieShout said:


> Yes exactly. Without the Lemur touchscreens, it would be impossible to quickly navigate such a large template. And to load al the instruments up in active state on the 12 VEPro servers does take a few hours. But the template was only ever made to be a starting point for new projects, and we use it to decide which instruments we want to use for a new project. This is the same approach used by Hans Zimmer, Bleeding Fingers Studios and others.
> That said, with the advent of very large (4TB and 8TB) cheap and fast NVMe SSD drives, I have started to transfer the big template on to my workstation PC, which is faster and more powerful than our studio servers. This means I can create a project palette of instruments in VEPro faster, and once I have my project template, I can load it much faster. I'm still using Lemur but will port this over to TouchOSC next year, as Lemur is no longer supported and doesn't always perform very well.


I don't use Lemur but the 14bit MIDI Sherlock Plugin
with a 24 inch touch screen
it's very comfortable
and with Cubase I no longer use VEP
because I do not see the interest with a single computer


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Oct 13, 2022)

Freudon33 said:


> the PLE is Cubase's logical project editor
> which allows you to configure actions to display the desired tracks
> and if like me we end up with 5000 tracks disabled
> it's much easier and faster to find
> and all this coupled with a touch screen and just control buttons is the best


cool

Logic is similar. But now i base a lot on Logic´s search window for instruments. I call it "modular" template: I just push what is in my ear as the best. BUt want to integrate to VEP because of some specifc features of VEP. Regarding MIDI "creativity" VEP looks like the "Sauron", not Pro Tools . BUt this things has to work and be easier...They could copy features of Divisi MAestro maybe.

for now my issue is the frustration of not being able to *connect different Logic tracks to same instance in VEP ,* making the most of the ports. 

A great advantage of VEP is to c*hange instruments while keeping same score settings *in Logic Pro, so if one can couple more tracks to same instance with more flexibility than the multioutput aproach, i would love. Kontakt does it, but VEP is more "Sauron"...

That multiple output thing looks primitive and too complex for me. There is a guy on youtube who setup tracks, midi environment, kontakt in Vep, + VEP all in multiple outputs to do i don´t know what that i can´t do with 10 tracks. I apreciate his engagement and ideas, but i see composer working otherwise

As i said before in the post: the more variables, the more risk. If you NEED midi environment to setup VEP and finally use Kontakt again, and then compose orchestral music, well...


And I also tried, i would love to use it better, but looks like geek thing.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Oct 14, 2022)

when i click on decouple the helper says "decouple", when I go to click again, the helper says again "decouple". The icon could be the famous and universal couple link (the link icon)

Regarding automation, i am not sure how the automation behaves with these saving features ; i suspect I lost some settings I did for the automation. I would love some way to be informed about how is being the automation saved, or if i can load a preset.

INstead of project they could call it session the file we use to a specific DAW project. and project the master template/server project. (IF I AM UNDERSTANDING this....)

I guess VSL could improve some communication issues for starters. Is not that the app is not smart, or that so is wrong, but certainly confusing for who starts and loads more the support FAQ . 

The good side of this is: this means it has features and options for different work types.

MAybe some youtube tutorials gave the wrong impression that is that simple an easy? To recall the attention of the viewer on setting up would be not a "bad marketing" in my opnion - is totally ok to say that one has to take a little more time to learn it. The app is anyway famous by being used by composers with more computer knowledge.

but let´s go, as an megaloman idealist I give more days practicing VEP in the hope to fulfill some musical phantasies


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Nov 1, 2022)

I learned already some things of VEP and for now my update is that (considering the new era of computers) the advantage of using VEP is more regarding the features that are not to find in some daws, like this "macro managament" , allowing more precise and creative workflow.

I would highly suggest that the "decouple" infobox says FROM WHICH THING it is decoupled.It comes to my head many possibilities, even after reading the manual. After using i memorized now how it is meant, but still not sure 100% the implications long term of decoupling in some cases.

And: the icon of decoupling is confusing, in my opnion, because looks like linking to something, but there is a ! sign , i dont know.

I guess this creates a huge confusion right when we start using it, so it creates some bad impression, that does not fit with the great product in my opnion.

After learning the definitions the user can see some creative ways of using the features that makes VEP stand out, so it is very good it gets very intuitive from the first day of use on.

BUt i am aware that is hard to make something professional and not complicated at same time!


I especially find it visually very pleasing to use (in contrast to Synchron Player with these images like to artificial.... and no way to decrease brightness) so i cant´s wait for something like a DAW of VSL !

I am excited to cotribute with some ideas about how I intend to use VEP with Logic,
if all works well ; )


----------



## EgM (Nov 1, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> I especially find it visually very pleasing to use (in contrast to Synchron Player with these images like to artificial.... and no way to decrease brightness) so i cant´s wait for something like a DAW of VSL !


A DAW by VSL would be super awesome!


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Nov 2, 2022)

EgM said:


> A DAW by VSL would be super awesome!


i want one

protest!


----------



## ravez (Nov 2, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> for now my issue is the frustration of not being able to *connect different Logic tracks to same instance in VEP ,* making the most of the ports.


You can already do this by using a track where you load a Vienna Ensemble Pro Event Input that points to the port number you want, just make sure to add on both tracks a disabled I/O Audio FX with the output set.
A faster/cleaner way is to use AU3 version of VEP7, where the first track is set to port 1 and second track to port 2.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Nov 2, 2022)

ravez said:


> You can already do this by using a track where you load a Vienna Ensemble Pro Event Input that points to the port number you want, just make sure to add on both tracks a disabled I/O Audio FX with the output set.
> A faster/cleaner way is to use AU3 version of VEP7, where the first track is set to port 1 and second track to port 2.


looks greats! i will try soon as I can


I have been experimenting til now with a setup for organ in one track  , but ideally i want more tracks pointing to same instance, to get more "registers" assigned to faders of cc controllers, and finally bring more variation to my organ sound. Me dreaming here...


----------



## novaburst (Nov 5, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> I might have missed it in the 8 last pages but Apple wants you to work differently with Logic pro. Apple doesnt want you to use the "midi module" approach where you send 16 channels of midi to a module and returns the audio as a bus with other instruments. (ala VEP)
> Apple wants you to have 1 instrument and thats it. With midi and audio. And for that to work, Logic does the ram dump and turn off/on and have their new AS computers.
> 
> Ive been using this approach. I believe also trevor morris started doing this with cubase... or at least everything in one very powerful computer.
> ...


One thing about VEpro it is not complicated, it just gives simple choice the best of 3 choice you can ignore it and load your FX or instrument in your DAW, or you can use it and load your instruments with VEpro local, this seems to be the favourite for some, or you can use a different machine and load your instrument's from there (server) this one is my favourite. or you can just get along until you feel you need to use it.

But for the most part it gives choice of what road you want to take, 

So if you did not have VEpro will that limit your possibility's, no it would not, the only thing is that every thing would need to be done in your DAW so all the load is with your DAW 

Does this course instability, i dont know i guess it depends on how stable your DAW is and your system, OS, updates and so on 

I think bottom line is see what works best for you then see how your system handles it,

I have also found that being offline and online can influence stability too one way or the other


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Nov 5, 2022)

ravez said:


> You can already do this by using a track where you load a Vienna Ensemble Pro Event Input that points to the port number you want, just make sure to add on both tracks a disabled I/O Audio FX with the output set.
> A faster/cleaner way is to use AU3 version of VEP7, where the first track is set to port 1 and second track to port 2.


i am so happy to connect to the ports easily from a midi track now


the only issue is: notes hang all over the place, and connection is buggy or too misterious


how frustrating, since i spent many hours organizing things based on this port system


kudos for the additional complication of VEP


----------



## bfreepro (Nov 6, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> i am so happy to connect to the ports easily from a midi track now
> 
> 
> the only issue is: notes hang all over the place, and connection is buggy or too misterious
> ...


Sometimes I get minor weird issues with VEP on a single machine. Never had hung notes but I’ve noticed when I have something like a Spitfire Symphonic collection loaded and connected via VEP, playing a note in the DAW actually doesn’t trigger the release tail for the sample, so it just cuts off instantly as soon as I let go of the key. I just have to go to my VEP instance, click on the virtual keyboard within the kontakt instance to play a note, and the releases now trigger every time in any scenario. Granted, it’s pretty annoying when you have 60+ instruments loaded and have to do it with each one lol. It seems to only happen with certain Spitfire Kontakt libraries, it’s weird. 

I’ll also note that VEP on a single computer definitely can over-complicate things with the extra steps for routing and setting it up, etc, but I’ve also noticed significant performance increases with streaming samples and specifically CPU stress even on a powerful and new laptop with 64gb ram (Ryzen 7). I’m very glad I have it. Especially on a laptop, it can provide a night and day difference- a large project would struggle immensely without it, and loading a few plugins into VEP completely eliminated all the pops and clicks and dropouts. I’ve never noticed any major performance issues on my other systems so can’t comment on the effectiveness there, but it definitely can save me a lot of trouble when the track count starts to get really high on my mobile rigs.


----------



## ravez (Nov 6, 2022)

i think the best way to use vep with logic is one instrument per instance with 1 core per instance and forget about ports and channels


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Nov 6, 2022)

ravez said:


> i think the best way to use vep with logic is one instrument per instance with 1 core per instance and forget about ports and channels


do you mean ports always will get buggy?

i think wtf if this does not work, thats the sense of VEP (using ports)

i reinstalled now and still can´t get the VEP input plugin to work

it looks like i have to do your way, i thought about this. I have to set two templates in differents systems of workflow i guess, because i feel i can´t trust that all works until end. 

The worse is to spend hours in some plan that goes wrong at the end


----------



## Ben (Nov 6, 2022)

I'm not a Logic user myself, but there is a complete page with tips regarding logic in the manual:




__





Important Notes For Logic Pro X Users | VSL - Software Manuals







www.vsl.info


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Nov 6, 2022)

Ben said:


> I'm not a Logic user myself, but there is a complete page with tips regarding logic in the manual:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


THanks Benm, i will read it again . I did a screen recording to show it. BAsically:


- I can´t hear playback of the connected plugin

- I can´t play sounds, UNLESS i go to the track of the instance plugin ,play, and come back to the port track

- I can´t connect the plug in directly unless i set a I/O plugin of Logic , enable it with output set, and disable again. * EVEN so the issues above persists.*

- When setting the I/o plug in to both tracks (the main track and the subordinated) I see just the monitoring of sound in VEP, but no actual sound in Logic. But Logic gets sound from VEP for the main track connected to the same instance. HOWEVER After going back and forward, and puting the server track into a folder, it worked, I can play the sounds correctly.

I will check the manual. I also tried to understand if I have to set the AU plugin connected to the instance in the main track, and only then the input plugin in the track below.


I will also enable all background ativity in computer to see if this works.


I have the template for multiple ports from the website, but this other method mentioned in the link you sent does not allow me to use normal midi tracks , as instruments, assigned to ports. THe method is more a routing for audio output when mixing, if i got it well.


I want to assign ports to instruments that i can use as any midi instrument in Logic, and if possible, save it as instrument in the stack.


----------



## ZeroZero (Nov 6, 2022)

Here is my way of working. I own Vepro but no longer need it. I have one machine, 6 drives. I work in Cubase. This is the most efficient way to handle projects - it makesc no compromises.
All my music projects are virgin meaning no extra RAM footprints. I have a M<aster Audition Template with 2968 tracks - using keyswitches. This loads in ten seconds. They are all disabled.
My Master Audition Template is thoroughly organised in folders for each of the following, score order for the usuals, strings, brass, woods, percs. then synths, vox, guitars and a few more master folders. All these folders Have the prefix "All". Then within I may have subfolders for each instrument, for example picollo, flute, clarinet or steel acoustic nylon, electric, bass for the All Guitar folder. Within these folders htere are often sub folders for e.g. Violin Solo, Violins Ensemble, Violin fx. This Master Audition Template has no routings, it never gets used directly - no need. All tracks are disabled.
ALL the sounds I have go into this template. Whenever I get new sounds, the first thing I do is add them in - religiously. I know where ALL my sounds are - all the time.
When creating a new piece of music I open a virgin "music" project. Then, to select my initial instruments, I open the Master Audition template. Cubase asks me if I want to activate. I click Yes (meaning that my music proect is dormant). I then go to the folders I want and audition what I want.
If I already know what I want, I dont even need this step of auditioning.
I then close the auditioning project and my music project becomes active again. I go to file/import from project. Select the Master Audition project. Here I see a list of your tracks folderised with tick boxes next to them. Tick the instruments you need and import.
This whole process takes less than minute. Loading the tracks is really fast, a few seconds, because they are disabled. They appear, folders and all if you want, in your music project. You can go back and shop more, at any time.
It's just like having a prepared shelf of instrument tracks from which you can help yourself. No Vepro required, no messing with media bay, best of all no baggage whatsover in your music project.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Nov 6, 2022)

ZeroZero said:


> Here is my way of working. I own Vepro but no longer need it. I have one machine, 6 drives. I work in Cubase. This is the most efficient way to handle projects - it makesc no compromises.
> All my music projects are virgin meaning no extra RAM footprints. I have a M<aster Audition Template with 2968 tracks - using keyswitches. This loads in ten seconds. They are all disabled.
> My Master Audition Template is thoroughly organised in folders for each of the following, score order for the usuals, strings, brass, woods, percs. then synths, vox, guitars and a few more master folders. All these folders Have the prefix "All". Then within I may have subfolders for each instrument, for example picollo, flute, clarinet or steel acoustic nylon, electric, bass for the All Guitar folder. Within these folders htere are often sub folders for e.g. Violin Solo, Violins Ensemble, Violin fx. This Master Audition Template has no routings, it never gets used directly - no need. All tracks are disabled.
> ALL the sounds I have go into this template. Whenever I get new sounds, the first thing I do is add them in - religiously. I know where ALL my sounds are - all the time.
> ...


Since i want my template to look so much as possible as a traditional score, but complete one, I still have faith in VEP

and because of the ports


otherwise it looks like what you do is more than enough


ideally I want a Logic and a VEP template, like two possible ways of working.



WHen we need some idea it is great to have so many tracks as possible in the daw, ready to play. BUt later I have problems with a crowded project that is not simple as sheet music

My main issue is with the idea that articulations are set like instruments. THe secret to annoying music. In VP I can easily set short and long in the same track, changing it by faders assigned to CC1/11, what makes the articulation changes more rich and natural than "now the music is long /now the music is short" etc. 

I want to flow from one articulation/sound to another, and it looks like VEP is the ideal "macro" to achieve this in few tracks.

So you have Strings as a track, and all the rest you have in one piano score: the violin solo sordino, the strings tutti (ensemble), the FX. This is helps to read faster the score, and be aware of harmony and compositional tehcniques.

BUt if you compose by ear and just focus on result quickly, and have CPU power, I guess VEP is not needed.

And more than this: your setup avoids the "risk of too many variables".

I apreciate the help of anyone who can use VEP midi ports as midi instruments in Logic. It worked here some time, with this I/O plugin trick , I guess it may be some technical issue related to settings.


----------



## ravez (Nov 6, 2022)

if you set the input/output of the I/O plugin it should fix the hanging notes issue, i don't know why VSL recommends to have it going to 1/2

EDIT:
I just tried and it seems to work even with automation for smart controls, so I/O plugin with output set to 1/2 just on the track that has the VEP plugin and on the other tracks that use the VEP Event Input plugin, use the I/O plugin with no output set. I am getting no hanging notes and working automation, but you need to always check on the "use for automation" check on the Event Input plugin of the track you want to automate, which is an annoying workflow killer to me, that's why i am going the 1 instrument per instance way.

As you I am just testing what works best workflow wise and bump into the limits of each.
But it really is a Logic convoluted issue dealing with multi-timbral instruments, in Cubase it's a piece of cake to get this to work with many tracks/ports/channels per instance


----------



## ravez (Nov 6, 2022)

ZeroZero said:


> Here is my way of working. I own Vepro but no longer need it. I have one machine, 6 drives. I work in Cubase. This is the most efficient way to handle projects - it makesc no compromises.
> All my music projects are virgin meaning no extra RAM footprints. I have a M<aster Audition Template with 2968 tracks - using keyswitches. This loads in ten seconds. They are all disabled.
> My Master Audition Template is thoroughly organised in folders for each of the following, score order for the usuals, strings, brass, woods, percs. then synths, vox, guitars and a few more master folders. All these folders Have the prefix "All". Then within I may have subfolders for each instrument, for example picollo, flute, clarinet or steel acoustic nylon, electric, bass for the All Guitar folder. Within these folders htere are often sub folders for e.g. Violin Solo, Violins Ensemble, Violin fx. This Master Audition Template has no routings, it never gets used directly - no need. All tracks are disabled.
> ALL the sounds I have go into this template. Whenever I get new sounds, the first thing I do is add them in - religiously. I know where ALL my sounds are - all the time.
> ...


That's interesting, but why not having just the one project with everything inside disabled and hidden, then you could just enable what you want/need, or have i missed something?


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Nov 6, 2022)

r


ravez said:


> if you set the input/output of the I/O plugin it should fix the hanging notes issue, i don't know why VSL recommends to have it going to 1/2
> 
> EDIT:
> I just tried and it seems to work even with automation for smart controls, so I/O plugin with output set to 1/2 just on the track that has the VEP plugin and on the other tracks that use the VEP Event Input plugin, use the I/O plugin with no output set. I am getting no hanging notes and working automation, but you need to always check on the "use for automation" check on the Event Input plugin of the track you want to automate, which is an annoying workflow killer to me, that's why i am going the 1 instrument per instance way.
> ...


Thanks very much for the reply! I missed to put on BOTH tracks, actually the first time i readed i did not understand your msg. BUt then noew even with the i/o in both tracks I am still not there.

Now I try to make the track of the VEP input plugin have the output in itself. SO I have to open the multi output version of VEP in a software instrument track.

However, it looks already to complex. The idea is to keep so close as the "normal" single track workflow of Logic as possible.


I can´t say what comes next lol But it looks that my issue got better.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Nov 6, 2022)

ravez said:


> That's interesting, but why not having just the one project with everything inside disabled and hidden, then you could just enable what you want/need, or have i missed something?


at least for me the plan is this: I have VEP as a folder that I can hide or show, and one single piano track on Logic. 

SO i can decide if i "go VEP" or if I load patches from Logic while composing, that is an awesome thing when you compose based on sounds you already remember. 

The big template is good for when you don´t remember sounds, and want to navigate through your options.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Nov 6, 2022)

ravez said:


> i think the best way to use vep with logic is one instrument per instance with 1 core per instance and forget about ports and channels


I am defintely considering it!


SO you use all in omni mode?


THe problem with numbers is mostly this: you have to be sure of what you want, otherwise you have to adjust the order of numbers the whole time, and this may easily cause some mistake in the routing.


----------



## ravez (Nov 6, 2022)

i use 1/1 since i only use 1 port and 1 channel there is really no need to send more midi data than you are gonna need to use.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Nov 6, 2022)

ravez said:


> i use 1/1 since i only use 1 port and 1 channel there is really no need to send more midi data than you are gonna need to use.


so you do articulation by tracks? this means a lot of instances


----------



## ravez (Nov 6, 2022)

no i use just one track per instrument, how you do articulations is a preference, you can use keyswitches (i would never use them), you can use articulation sets, but i use XDAW from AudioGrocery cause i like to see them with printed name in the automation lanes even in the project window, so i can always see what instruments are playing with what articulations anywhere anytime.
I find articulation sets way too limited, but i do use them for per note attributes like attack/release, that kind of stuff.
But the main articulations like sustain, legato, staccato i can just read them in the automation lanes and also they work like "direction" instead of "attributes" in Cubase language (if you are familiar with expression maps)


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Nov 6, 2022)

ravez said:


> no i use just one track per instrument, how you do articulations is a preference, you can use keyswitches (i would never use them), you can use articulation sets, but i use XDAW from AudioGrocery cause i like to see them with printed name in the automation lanes even in the project window, so i can always see what instruments are playing with what articulations anywhere anytime.
> I find articulation sets way too limited, but i do use them for per note attributes like attack/release, that kind of stuff.
> But the main articulations like sustain, legato, staccato i can just read them in the automation lanes and also they work like "direction" instead of "attributes" in Cubase language (if you are familiar with expression maps)


Ah i know this!! THe guy is like a MIDI genius haha . I discovered this week on youtube. He deserves more attention.

I am happy of the Divid MAte and other solutions, but i have custumer support trauma. The simple the better

I am doing this to see how it works, like one instance for instrument.

Yes , i find the KS and articulation sets still very rigid, so the articulation sets have two functions for me: for radical change of playing techniques, like tremolo and pizz. Or for change of instruments.

THe major problem is with midi cc: you have to assign your decvice the omni, for each remains the same for each channels in the articulations.


I tried the system of using articulation by faders, in omni mode.FOr strings is very good. NOw if you say this XDAW helps to see the names in the track, I may reconsider it. This is also why i liked VEP: I can use faders to manage articulations. What i dont like is that i have to set each one by one, for every single patch, it does not learn for new instances of Kontakt automatically.


All this means: the devs have still work to do, because the problem of articulation and of creating an easy but powerful workflow for classical music is far from solved. WHat works until now is to give up in some essential things to prioritize other things that are also essential...


----------



## ZeroZero (Nov 6, 2022)

ravez said:


> That's interesting, but why not having just the one project with everything inside disabled and hidden, then you could just enable what you want/need, or have i missed something?


THe answer to this is that Cubase currently does not hide folders and this produces clutter. So, if I hid everything then selected only a flute ensemble for example. What would appear in the project window would be three folders "Woodwinds"/"FLutes"/FLute Ensembles". This is ugly. Using import tracks is really not much more than the hiding tracks method. I would say it takes about 30 seconds to load a new instrument for the Master Audition Template, plus any time spemnt auditioning sounds if required. 
Responding a point above it would be perfectly possible to have a template with say for example score order with one favorite instance of each instrument (unfolderised) and then use the Master Audition Template to store any alternative spares ready to go, if a favorite does not work out.


----------



## ravez (Nov 6, 2022)

you can't hide them from the track headers (not sure why would i even want to since they provide visual structure) but you have them no visible in the arrangement, so you only see midi data on the actual tracks.
If you really don't want to see folders in the track headers as well, you can just drag the instrument you want to use out of the folder and you are done, it's still faster than importing tracks


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Nov 6, 2022)

ZeroZero said:


> THe answer to this is that Cubase currently does not hide folders and this produces clutter. So, if I hid everything then selected only a flute ensemble for example. What would appear in the project window would be three folders "Woodwinds"/"FLutes"/FLute Ensembles". This is ugly. Using import tracks is really not much more than the hiding tracks method. I would say it takes about 30 seconds to load a new instrument for the Master Audition Template, plus any time spemnt auditioning sounds if required.
> Responding a point above it would be perfectly possible to have a template with say for example score order with one favorite instance of each instrument (unfolderised) and then use the Master Audition Template to store any alternative spares ready to go, if a favorite does not work out.


they are 30 years old and still don´t ?? haha THe Hide feature makes Logic elegant.

and I give my best will tryin to consider Cubase as a second "emergency/acessory" daw, next to my Logic.

"Daw integration will be the future" Klaus Schwab


----------



## ravez (Nov 6, 2022)

Using articulations by fader is not ideal, i prefer to trigger the wanted articulation directly, it's way faster, you can use metagrid, or touchOSC or even streamdeck


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Nov 18, 2022)

ravez said:


> Using articulations by fader is not ideal, i prefer to trigger the wanted articulation directly, it's way faster, you can use metagrid, or touchOSC or even streamdeck


depends on which articulation


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Nov 18, 2022)

I would like to just come and say: VEP is crashing consistently when using a drone from Forbiden Planet (EW). Killing my work (and today i have not much time...). All my synths worked well on VEP. I am on Ventura.


maybe someone else had this wonderful experience with EW and VEP?


and when it crashes, i have to restart Logic Pro as well, for all other types of crashes or problems it looks that I have to restart both apps.


_edit: it crashed alone using this drone and Logic Pro, no VEP. Kudos for EW again_


----------



## Freudon33 (Nov 18, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> I would like to just come and say: VEP is crashing consistently when using a drone from Forbiden Planet (EW). Killing my work (and today i have not much time...). All my synths worked well on VEP. I am on Ventura.
> 
> 
> maybe someone else had this wonderful experience with EW and VEP?
> ...


that's one of the reasons I gave up on VEP from random crashes
Attention I have nothing against VEP but for my personal case I had more problems
what advantages
after that it is surely linked to bad configuration and/or hardware problems but it is already difficult to
adjust your daw then two software in parallel
it's still worse
I switched to Cubase with all my tracks disabled and it works very well like that routing is also much simpler
afterwards in the professional world with several computers in a network and with a clean installation
made by a specialist I'm not saying


----------



## Per Boysen (Nov 19, 2022)

This was a very interesting and educational thread to read. Thank you guys!  Below is how I use VEP (and why).

I run VEP as a server parallel to the DAW on one computer. In my workflow VEP functions like "a rack containing a symphonic orchestra". In the VEP server, I use four instances (woodwinds, brass, percussion, strings) and in the DAW I have four matching VEP instruments, each instrument track grouped with a big number of midi tracks that target individual instrument instances inside the targeted VEP (server) instance. In the VEP server, I also run MirPro3d.
-
When working with this setup I typically use the four VEP groups for orchestral stuff and load synths or extra Kontakt instances into the DAW. This keeps the DAW smooth to work with, due to the low RAM and CPU footprints. Because I have become a fanboy of the MirPro3d I like to keep each instrument separate inside the four VEP instances, rather than stacking up a lot inside one Kontakt or Opus instance. And when running something in the DAW, that I want to place "in the same hall as the orchestra" I apply an extra Mir server instance that runs the same hall as the first one in VEP.
-
My current machine is a 3600 i7 with 8 cores (hence 4 VEP instances) and I have experimented a lot with different libraries and concepts to get the most out of the CPU. I have finally found that the Vienna Synchron libraries are the most CPU effective when run in VEP. Opus and the Spitfire player just kill this machine but with the Synchron stuff I can play live tutti parts through DivisiMate with just a few drop-outs. DAWs I'm using are Logic, Cubase, Bitwig, and (since version 6) Studio One. I now prefer Studio One because of the fast workflow I can achieve with its smooth integration of the Synchron libraries' articulation switching.
-
As for addressing VEP I keep two main folders in the DAW. One that channels the 32 DivisiMate tracks (yes, I also keep a DivisiMate Loopback track and love that option) and one folder that targets the same VEP instruments plus a lot more.
-
One thing I really like about keeping a VEP server setup "as a huge rack" is that you can slap a different DAW to the front end for fun inspiration in different projects.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Nov 19, 2022)

ed buller said:


> The beauty of VEP is that it stops your DAW from having such a huge memory footprint. Also if it crashes, just re-launch and VEP will reconnect. No waiting eons for all your samples to load.
> 
> Another huge benefit is right now I'm going thru a big project from 6 years ago done on a different machine JUST in cubase. So for every f***ing session I load I have to tell Kontakt where the samples are !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


my experience now is that, if it crashes, i have to restart VEP, otherwise it will not responde. If VEP crashes, i have to restart Logic Pro, for the same reason


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Nov 29, 2022)

bfreepro said:


> Sometimes I get minor weird issues with VEP on a single machine. Never had hung notes but I’ve noticed when I have something like a Spitfire Symphonic collection loaded and connected via VEP, playing a note in the DAW actually doesn’t trigger the release tail for the sample, so it just cuts off instantly as soon as I let go of the key. I just have to go to my VEP instance, click on the virtual keyboard within the kontakt instance to play a note, and the releases now trigger every time in any scenario. Granted, it’s pretty annoying when you have 60+ instruments loaded and have to do it with each one lol. It seems to only happen with certain Spitfire Kontakt libraries, it’s weird.
> 
> I’ll also note that VEP on a single computer definitely can over-complicate things with the extra steps for routing and setting it up, etc, but I’ve also noticed significant performance increases with streaming samples and specifically CPU stress even on a powerful and new laptop with 64gb ram (Ryzen 7). I’m very glad I have it. Especially on a laptop, it can provide a night and day difference- a large project would struggle immensely without it, and loading a few plugins into VEP completely eliminated all the pops and clicks and dropouts. I’ve never noticed any major performance issues on my other systems so can’t comment on the effectiveness there, but it definitely can save me a lot of trouble when the track count starts to get really high on my mobile rigs.


I have for example the pleasure with all possible hanging notes. I suspect Opus started this festival


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Nov 29, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> I have for example the pleasure with all possible hanging notes. I suspect Opus started this festival


thx very mich for the review!


----------



## Doppler75 (Dec 6, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> thx very mich for the review!


There are complications using VEP that are a real time suck in some systems. It has cost me many days of my time over the years. If a VEP server crashes, you quite often need to do a complete reload and restart, which depending on the size of your template can take several minutes. Since we work in Cubase, deactivating instrument tracks in a template or loading in archived instrument tracks from a grand template has saved us much frustration and time. 

That being said, after moving to the new Mac using Audiogridder on a server has given access to recently non supported VIs and plugins, just amazing.


----------



## Doppler75 (Dec 6, 2022)

Emanuel Fróes said:


> i want one
> 
> protest!


Be careful what you ask for.😁


----------



## timbit2006 (Dec 6, 2022)

The problem with VEPro is it still does not support VST3 despite it being requested several years ago. I just read now that kontakt 7 is apparently VST3 only so this makes my whole Kontakt setup impossible to upgrade until VEPro can support VST3. Who really knows when that's planned as well, I've asked about it a few times in the past and got 100% ignored by them on the forums.
I don't really know what can be done about it other than complaining and bringing up the issue as much as possible now in hopes that one of us finally gets a response.

Edit:
I did find this so I guess they are working on it....




I think something that is essential to many of us like this should have an ETA though...


----------



## Ben (Dec 6, 2022)

No ETA for VST3 hosting, but we are already at the stage where we fix plugin specific oddities. 
On my system Kontakt 7 is already running from within VEP7, and also different FX plugins. 
In general this is a good sign that a release is not too far away


----------



## timbit2006 (Dec 6, 2022)

Ben said:


> No ETA for VST3 hosting, but we are already at the stage where we fix plugin specific oddities.
> On my system Kontakt 7 is already running from within VEP7, and also different FX plugins.
> In general this is a good sign that a release is not too far away


Thanks for the update! That sounds promising and I look forward to the release, I hope it isn't keeping your team up too much at night, although I do have to say the lack of VST3 support kept a lot of us up at night figuring out possible workarounds 
I think if anything NI should be paying you guys or sending a temporary worker to help with development it seems many of us wont pay to upgrade to Kontakt 7 until it works with VEPro haha.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Dec 6, 2022)

timbit2006 said:


> The problem with VEPro is it still does not support VST3 despite it being requested several years ago. I just read now that kontakt 7 is apparently VST3 only so this makes my whole Kontakt setup impossible to upgrade until VEPro can support VST3. Who really knows when that's planned as well, I've asked about it a few times in the past and got 100% ignored by them on the forums.
> I don't really know what can be done about it other than complaining and bringing up the issue as much as possible now in hopes that one of us finally gets a response.
> 
> Edit:
> ...


Wait, I guess i opened Kontakt 7 on VEP. I just only use Konatk 6 because the 7 sucks in my opnion, not the VEP. Whoever took the metronome and pitch buttons in that "toolbox" out of Kontakt has possibly some new music personality type

For the VEP i have a list of suggestions that would leave you more time for _double conterpoint in moto contrario_:

- connect all instances
- show instance number
- save automation (to be open in another instance)
- copy paste automation from instance to instance when parameters match ( this looks sophisticated!)
- direct midi learn / automatic assigment for the most used control surfaces (this looks very sophisticated...)
! - more different icons for the 2 apps Server/Pro Server ( this is easily doable 
- bulk instance operations, or operations only for selected (select all, decouple all, preserve all, connect all if possible, disconnect all). The "connect" all may need a good daw integration, because depends on many factors, like plugin activation, i guess?
- group instances
- hide deactivated channels
- other ways to connect more instrument tracks to same instance plug in? The event input plugin is somehow obscure with that i/o setting in Logic for me. Or may miss something. The thing is: i desisted, and now created more instances (by instrument, not instrument group). Which is maybe also the best workflow, idk
! - let me edit deactivate channels to some extent pls..s Like Solo and Mute.
!- Option to *increase contrast of deactivated/activated icons* , principally for instances. My eyes can´t see well
! - Option to *increase contrast / or chose text color,* when the color is not the best. All colors are beautiful, but many are not effective. Depends also on color profile of the monitor
- activate all deactivated channels
-resize or hidde instance tab (leaving only some mini icons to select instance , for example)
-shortcuts for the operations above! (then we can finally have a macro for activation/deactivation, and insert via control surface)
-TikTok real time integration (no, just a joke)

One of these last ones would be awesome for cpu with bad performance using VEP alone.

But i am no dev. just giving my "user experience", and hoping it is useful.

But the good news are: these days are gone for me, i am since yesterday a 128 gb Ram man ; )


----------



## holywilly (Dec 7, 2022)

I wanna add:
- show ram usage for each instance.


----------



## ravez (Dec 7, 2022)

quoting VSL newsletter from Nov 28th

“We’re happy to announce that *Vienna Ensemble Pro 7*with *VST3 hosting capability* will be available as a free update in December, 2022”


----------



## timbit2006 (Dec 7, 2022)

ravez said:


> quoting VSL newsletter from Nov 28th
> 
> “We’re happy to announce that *Vienna Ensemble Pro 7*with *VST3 hosting capability* will be available as a free update in December, 2022”


Well that's maybe why I missed it, I was still dealing with Post Traumatic Spam Disorder from all the usual black friday nonsense. Hopefully VSL sends out a better e-mail with VST3 COMPATIBILITY in the title, I'm sure there are others like me who got unnecessarily stressed about it thinking it's not being worked on.


----------

