# Best library to create fast strings like this?



## Hasen6 (Apr 27, 2018)

I haven't come across a library that could really do these kind of moderately fast moving string lines before. I'm not sure if any libraries have ever tried to do this in fact although I'm not sure why.

Any suggestions?

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/faststrings-mp3.13121/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## prodigalson (Apr 27, 2018)

this is more of a measured tremolo so you might want to look at kontakt libraries with that technique that will sync to tempo. Spitfire Chamber Strings, Cinematic Studio Strings, Spitfire Symphonic Strings all have that articulation.


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## goalie composer (Apr 27, 2018)




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## Batrawi (Apr 27, 2018)

CSS measured trems articulation


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## Rob (Apr 27, 2018)

honestly, any good library with round robin staccato can do it


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## Hasen6 (Apr 27, 2018)

Yes I've seen that but it's not particularly realistic to achieve this sound. You'd think in this day and age we could get a better result. This kind of measured tremolo articulation "sound" is really common when strings move moderately fast. Like in around the middle of Rite of Spring or at 1:32 in the Star Wars main title. Maybe it's a measured tremolo as you say or maybe that's just the way strings sound when playing a bit faster than normal but fast shortish legato notes.


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## Hasen6 (Apr 27, 2018)

Rob said:


> honestly, any good library with round robin staccato can do it



Wow that would be a big no. Well maybe you'd care to try and match it? The normal staccato notes you get in every library wouldn't do this kind of sound very well at all. But I'm ready to stand corrected if you'd care to try. 

The measured tremolo patch mentioned above would do a much better job than normal staccatos. But still I was hoping we could do better than that these days.


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## fixxer49 (Apr 27, 2018)

Hasen6 said:


> Wow that would be a big no. Well maybe you'd care to try and match it? The normal staccato notes you get in every library wouldn't do this kind of sound very well at all. But I'm ready to stand corrected if you'd care to try.
> 
> The measured tremolo patch mentioned above would do a much better job than normal staccatos. But still I was hoping we could do better than that these days.



Done with EWQLSO Gold many years ago. Strings are playing one articulation: Spiccato.


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## Hasen6 (Apr 27, 2018)

fixxer49 said:


> Done with EWQLSO Gold many years ago. Strings are playing one articulation: Spiccato.




Ok I see. We did 'legato' with GOS many years ago too but luckily we weren't content with that.  It's not very pronounced, I can only really hear it a bit at the beginning. I think the measured tremolo patches above are better.


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## fixxer49 (Apr 27, 2018)

Hasen6 said:


> I think the measured tremolo patches above are better.


i think you are right.


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## Hasen6 (Apr 27, 2018)

It's actually in Stravinsky's Firebird, not Rite of Spring. In the notation it's spiccato sempre but it won't sound like this at all if you use ordinary spiccato patches. Not sure if there are any patches that will do this particularly well.


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## ptram (Apr 27, 2018)

Just a try, out of my own curiosity… (Ugly sticky dark excessive reverb used to try to replicate the aged recording).

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/vsl_orchestra_ribattuto-mp3.13123/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Hasen6 (Apr 27, 2018)

Here's the Firebird mp3. Basically this is just short fast notes that aren't clearly separated. It's an extremely common articulation and I'm sure you've heard it in many pieces. Not sure why libraries don't really cover it much.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/firebird_spiccato_sempre-mp3.13122/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## fixxer49 (Apr 27, 2018)

Hasen6 said:


> It's actually in Stravinsky's Firebird, not Rite of Spring. In the notation it's spiccato sempre but it won't sound like this at all if you use ordinary spiccato patches. Not sure if there are any patches that will do this particularly well.


ever try to _blend_ a straight tremelo patch (not measured trem) with the spiccato articulation?


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## JohnG (Apr 27, 2018)

Rob said:


> honestly, any good library with round robin staccato can do it



Generally agree. I've been writing these kinds of patterns with samples ever since EWQLSO, in the Ancient Times.

Sometimes you have to spend a long time on them to make them sound more convincing. I'd probably choose spiccato samples.

Nice if you have Spitfire Chamber Strings, but you can do something a bit like this with any number of libraries.


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## Rob (Apr 27, 2018)

don't have the time to do a proper example, anyway here's vsl chamber strings staccato, with some longs in the cellos and basses to give a basic harmony...

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ribattutto-mp3.13124/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Hasen6 (Apr 27, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Generally agree. I've been writing these kinds of patterns with samples ever since EWQLSO, in the Ancient Times.
> 
> Sometimes you have to spend a long time on them to make them sound more convincing. I'd probably choose spiccato samples.
> 
> Nice if you have Spitfire Chamber Strings, but you can do something a bit like this with any number of libraries.



Hmm kind of reminds me of years back when we mixed in a tremolo patch to string runs...but we now we have string runs libraries for ultimate realism. I guess if you're happy with the results but I really want a result on par with other string articulations.


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## JohnG (Apr 27, 2018)

Took more patience back then. Still takes quite a bit, actually, but you can do it.


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## Hasen6 (Apr 27, 2018)

Rob said:


> don't have the time to do a proper example, anyway here's vsl chamber strings staccato, with some longs in the cellos and basses to give a basic harmony...
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ribattutto-mp3.13124/][/AUDIOPLUS]



It's very harsh because you're using ordinary staccatos. If you listen to the two examples I attached, the beautiful thing about them is that they have that bow sound, are very fast but at the same time seem delicate and beautifully linked together.


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## Hasen6 (Apr 27, 2018)

ptram said:


> Just a try, out of my own curiosity…
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/vsl_orchestra_ribattuto-mp3.13123/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Not too bad but sounds very synthy and very harsh like the other examples. We probably would have been happy with it about 10 years ago (don't take offense, I'm purely talking about the shortcoming of the samples). The problem is all other patches like legato and such in new string libraries are incredible these days...even string runs can be done really well for the most part. But for this articulation we are about 10 years behind.

The only place I heard it sound really good were in Sonokinetic's phrase libraries...but then they are phrase libraries...


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## Lionel Schmitt (Apr 27, 2018)

I believe the only way to really achieve this sound is to sample something like measured tremolos with some kind of legato transitions when changing notes... 
I HEAVILY and ENTIRELY disagree with anyone saying this is achievable with existing libraries (at least without a shit ton of trickery) and there isn't one example in this thread even comes close in my view... The issue (among others) is always lack of connectivity between the notes and I think sampling this as multi samples would be an enormous project. Round-robin legato for shorts (another kind of "flow legato" needs to be developed), round-robin rebows for repeating the same notes and of course the obligatory round-robin for the shorts themselves...


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## Hasen6 (Apr 27, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Took more patience back then. Still takes quite a bit, actually, but you can do it.



You can do legato with GOS and runs with a tremolo patch but is that what you do these days? The demands for realism are higher than ever. 

With the best libraries these days you can certainly get a legato sound that sounds good enough to fool even us, and you can do a run that is good enough to fool even us...but can you do this articulation using the methods you've described with such high realism?

What I'm saying is it's something that's missing from string libraries.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Apr 27, 2018)

This one comes kinda close... In the beginning. But not the thing yet IMO... and it's harsher than what you're looking for. More of an action sound.


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## Rob (Apr 27, 2018)

Hasen6 said:


> It's very harsh because you're using ordinary staccatos. If you listen to the two examples I attached, the beautiful thing about them is that they have that bow sound, are very fast but at the same time seem delicate and beautifully linked together.


some harshness is in the nature of these chamber strings... you can however reduce velocities and get a gentles tone. My point is, with eq and some care I wouldn't have a problem using these in a track.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ribattutto-faster-lowervel-mp3.13125/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Hasen6 (Apr 27, 2018)

Rob said:


> some harshness is in the nature of these chamber strings... you can however reduce velocities and get a gentles tone. My point is, with eq and some care I wouldn't have a problem using these in a track.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ribattutto-faster-lowervel-mp3.13125/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Ok fair enough. It's a chamber sound which is very different. Although to me personally it doesn't sound like the same articulation as the two examples I posted.


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## Hasen6 (Apr 27, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> I believe the only way to really achieve this sound is to sample something like measured tremolos with some kind of legato transitions when changing notes...
> I HEAVILY and ENTIRELY disagree with anyone saying this is achievable with existing libraries (at least without a shit ton of trickery) and there isn't one example in this thread even comes close in my view... The issue (among others) is always lack of connectivity between the notes and I think sampling this as multi samples would be an enormous project. Round-robin legato for shorts (another kind of "flow legato" needs to be developed), round-robin rebows for repeating the same notes and of course the obligatory round-robin for the shorts themselves...



Yes or perhaps a library at least part phrase based might do it. Or it could be done like string run libraries where there are link slur notes in between the notes played.


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## ptram (Apr 27, 2018)

Is there any real way to make virtual orchestra prototypes play "authentic", or their nature of machine-generated music will always be evident?

Prerecorded runs or phrases are probably the only way to go nearer a realistic simulation, just because you are playing back an actual recording.

More articulations will be good, with the usual problem that there will never be enough complex articulation, or short phrases, good for all the musical situations we may need.

Paolo


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## ptram (Apr 27, 2018)

I did another try. This time, it is with NI's Action Strings. The ribattuto is recorded from a real string orchestra. Yet, I find it quite sinty (but it may be my problem, more than the library).

Sequencing alone is not enough to achieve realism. There is a lot of mastering work that should be done, to remove the roughness one can even hear in a real orchestra recording, before editing.

Paolo

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/action_strings_ribattuto-mp3.13136/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Lionel Schmitt (Apr 27, 2018)

Hasen6 said:


> Yes or perhaps a library at least part phrase based might do it. Or it could be done like string run libraries where there are link slur notes in between the notes played.


+ repetition samples for repeated notes - like the playable re-bows for the legatos a few developers now have. Just round robin won't do it I believe.


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## DeactivatedAcc (Apr 27, 2018)

I have some developments that explore this realm - one leans towards phrase-based but with inter-note connectivity and some flexibility, and the other one is a full on playable rr legato approach. We'll see whether or not it all comes together properly, but I’m hopeful. 

Jasper


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## Lionel Schmitt (Apr 27, 2018)

@ptram
I think the issue here is that the repetition samples don't have round robin (I believe? sounds like that). I hear the sequence unnaturally repeating - static sound. Measured tremolos should have RR for the same reason IMO.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Apr 27, 2018)

Jasper Blunk said:


> I have some developments that explore this realm - one leans towards phrase-based but with inter-note connectivity and some flexibility, and the other one is a full on playable rr legato approach. We'll see whether or not it all comes together properly, but I’m hopeful.
> 
> Jasper


Wohoo!!  Thought about quoting you already... (maybe I did but changed it somehow? not sure, haha...) since playability seems to be your realm. I think you could pull that off! :D


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## MA-Simon (Apr 27, 2018)

Jasper Blunk said:


> We'll see whether or not it all comes together properly, but I’m hopeful.


I love you.


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## ptram (Apr 27, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> I think the issue here is that the repetition samples don't have round robin


As far as I know, Action Strings should be entirely made of recorded phrases. The artificial part of this sequence is that the original phrase is transposed each two notes. The phrase should be read from beginning to end without restarting at each note. So, there should be a different round robin for each note, until the phrase starts again.

Paolo


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## jtnyc (Apr 27, 2018)

What about 8Dio's Agitato Legato Arpeggio? I don't own it, but it sounds like it could get into the territory your looking for.


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## ptram (Apr 27, 2018)

Just to offer some more cases, here are short sequences made with NI Action Strings, VSL staccato, VSL with a series of different articulations (marcato, staccato, fast legato), with performance repetition (sample round robins taken from repeated notes), with prerecorded repetition (at the original tempo). This time, all with minmal reverb.

Paolo

Action Strings:

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/action_strings_ribattuto-mp3.13147/][/AUDIOPLUS]

VSL Staccato:

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/vsl_staccato-mp3.13148/][/AUDIOPLUS]

VSL Various Articulations:

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/vsl_various_art-mp3.13149/][/AUDIOPLUS]

VSL Performed Repetition:

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/vsl_performed_repetition-mp3.13150/][/AUDIOPLUS]

VSL Recorded Repetition:

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/vsl_recorded_repetition-mp3.13151/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Guffy (Apr 27, 2018)

Tried layering some Cinematic strings and Spitfire?

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/fast-mp3.13146/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Rob (Apr 27, 2018)

Fugdup said:


> Tried layering some Cinematic strings and Spitfire?
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/fast-mp3.13146/][/AUDIOPLUS]


this sounds perfectly fine to me, and proves my point


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## benmrx (Apr 27, 2018)

Could be a task for 


Fugdup said:


> Tried layering some Cinematic strings and Spitfire?
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/fast-mp3.13146/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Curious..., which Spitfire library are you layering with CSS in this example?


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## driscollmusick (Apr 27, 2018)

I used the Spitfire 180bpm Measured Tremolo articulation at 0:32 in this Grieg orchestration.


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## curtisschweitzer (Apr 27, 2018)

It seems like the measured tremelo articulations in most libraries just aren't recorded with that light leggiero sound, as they are designed to have more utility across multiple styles of play, dynamics, etc. It just goes to show you that the sheer depth of complex articulations of which strings are capable. I agree that all the examples (though often impressively close) don't quite get there. I also agree that this is "fake-able" in dense orchestration with existing libraries. It would be nice to have specifically leggiero MT patches in modern libraries, possibly even in a nice divisi...


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## NoamL (Apr 27, 2018)

Consider the two examples. Why is the second one unnaturally noisy?


[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/noisy-mp3.13166/][/AUDIOPLUS]

Because it is the wrong articulation! We cannot play continuous spiccatos like that. When asked to play fast, we will naturally get closer and closer to the string, as represented by the first (staccatissimo) example. It has nothing to do with mastering or EQ my friends 

unfortunately some libraries do not have a real staccatissimo sample set, just staccato and spiccato. In this case it would be best to use staccato and timestretch it. However, a library with real stac'smo samples (like CSS) is preferable.

In addition, the string section's ability to repeatedly accent every note also diminishes as we play faster. By accenting one note, we have imparted momentum to the bow that has to be canceled out to even move the bow in the other direction, much less accent the _following_ note. I am sure this is reinventing the wheel for most of you, but if you use a 4121 pattern on your fast string programming, you will achieve better results. As well, ignore all bullshit trailer music you have heard  , and _lower_ the overall velocity level during faster playing instead of increasing it.







Here is CSS, cellos plus second violins (with the first chairs added too). I used the Tree+Room mics, applied a tiny EQ dip at 680Hz, compressed the air a bit, and put it in MGM/SONY thru QLSpaces.

The original track:

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/faststrings-mp3.13121/][/AUDIOPLUS]

And my mockup:

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/multipress-mp3.13168/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/noisy-mp3.13166/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/multipress-mp3.13168/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## NoamL (Apr 27, 2018)

Some more tweaking (added close mics), here's a better version. In any case, you can see that it's possible to get close without any kind of purpose sampled articulation like "repetitions" or measured tremolo. Just need to concentrate on the programming.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/finalstrings-mp3.13171/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## tehreal (Apr 27, 2018)

NoamL said:


> 4121 pattern on your fast string programming



Can you explain what this is?


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## NoamL (Apr 27, 2018)

OK one more try!

Since @Jasper Blunk posted, why not try Fluid Shorts...

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/fluid-mp3.13172/][/AUDIOPLUS]


It's a little too aggressive for this _leggiero_ passage, but mixed in under CSS... the results are very nice, and it does feel more "connected."


[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/together-mp3.13173/][/AUDIOPLUS]

We are now pretty close to the original track:


[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/faststrings-mp3.13121/][/AUDIOPLUS]

a good mixer (i.e. NOT me  ) would take it the final few yards!




BTW I am using Fluid Shorts on a mockup with much more aggressive string ostinatos, and it really adds realism and punch to CSS in that context.



tehreal said:


> Can you explain what this is?



4121 = a string player's natural musical phrasing, where higher numbers stand for more accent. In a group of four sixteenth notes, the ones landing on 8th note beats will be a little more accented (higher velocity) than the others. Then, the notes landing on quarter note beats will be even more.

Thus, if you start out with a string of 16th notes:

11111111

Then add some velocity to the 8th beats:

21212121

Then the quarters:

31213121

And now even the half note:

41213121

it is just a rule of thumb and you should let the actual musical phrase guide you... but the idea is to always have a hierarchy of notes in mind.






[AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/fluid-mp3.13172/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/together-mp3.13173/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## NoamL (Apr 27, 2018)

fixxer49 said:


> ever try to _blend_ a straight tremelo patch (not measured trem) with the spiccato articulation?



Shamelessly stealing this idea, here is CSS/S stacatissimo + Fluid Shorts, but now with some CSS/S tremolos blended in to add blur. I think it's time for lunch!

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/faststrings-mp3.13121/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/anddone-mp3.13175/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Hasen6 (Apr 27, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Shamelessly stealing this idea, here is CSS/S stacatissimo + Fluid Shorts, but now with some CSS/S tremolos blended in to add blur. I think it's time for lunch!
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/faststrings-mp3.13121/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/anddone-mp3.13175/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Yes it's getting there. The measured tremolos are vital, it can't be done with ordinary staccatos. The fluid shorts have a nice texture appropriate for this kind of articulation though. I've attached the mockup I did a couple of years ago.

I think the best result you can get is like how we used to do string runs, with various tricks. But now we have libraries like Orchestral tools String runs where we can build ultra realistic runs however we like which sound even better than the old tricks we used to do.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/mockup-mp3.13177/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Hasen6 (Apr 27, 2018)

Jasper Blunk said:


> I have some developments that explore this realm - one leans towards phrase-based but with inter-note connectivity and some flexibility, and the other one is a full on playable rr legato approach. We'll see whether or not it all comes together properly, but I’m hopeful.
> 
> Jasper



Listening to your fluid shorts library, it sounds like you might be the one to achieve this articulation realistically.


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## Hasen6 (Apr 28, 2018)

I was listening to John Williams tracks and in just Star Wars and Superman I came across this articulation in virtually every action track. I've included examples in this medley. In fact there were even more than this but some too short to bother including.

Some are _slow_ runs, ie too slow to perform with a run builder library or using other tricks, while others are melodic riffs. They seem to be way more common, (at least with John Williams) than articulations like col legno which seem to be on every string library released in the past 10 years. But only two libraries seem to have even attempted this sound and only one aspect of it. 

You could probably do the superboy running in this example track quite well with the measured tremolo patches but the others would be very hard indeed.

Not sure why such a common articulation is being overlooked. For all intents and purposes it's the _opposite _of staccato, so attempting to do it with staccato patches leads to less than desirable results. Much like attempting to make string runs with staccatos since runs are not detached, they are linked together just in the same way legato string patches are. If anything they are _more _linked since when played at speed the tendency for blurring the notes and bending the pitch is even stronger. The bow does not leave the strings in this articulation whereas the definition of staccato is that they do.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/jw_examples-mp3.13180/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## NoamL (Apr 28, 2018)

Most of those are exactly what the sample world calls "measured trem" - it's just 8ths or triplet 8ths split into double bows. You know, notes with a slash....


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## Hasen6 (Apr 28, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Most of those are exactly what the sample world calls "measured trem" - it's just 8ths or triplet 8ths split into double bows. You know, notes with a slash....



Unfortunately most of those can't be achieved in the sample world. Mainly because only two libraries have ever even included the articulation at all, most libraries opting rather to include the much less common col legno which has been done to death already anyway.

Anyway I was just explaining what it was since several here seem to think using staccatos to achieve it the best way to go about it. But in fact it's like using marcatos to achieve legato. Not saying you couldn't definitely do either of these, it's just kind of against what the articulation is about in the first place.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Apr 28, 2018)

I little "fluency" attempt with Hollywood Strings - Violas.
http://picosong.com/wC6hY/
Quick and dirty but that's the road I'd go down for this kind of playing - and the those tracks will rest until I'll have a real recording! :D


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## SBK (Apr 28, 2018)

Have you tried, Musical Sampling Adventure Strings? With spiccato and shorter release?


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## Rob (Apr 28, 2018)

I insist with my staccatos  here's a more in context try...

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/repetitions-mp3.13208/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Hasen6 (Apr 28, 2018)

Rob said:


> I insist with my staccatos  here's a more in context try...
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/repetitions-mp3.13186/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Hehe that's persistence.  The bow texture is quite nice but it's missing the tremolo type effect. It's not bad overall. What did you think of my mockup of it?


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## Hasen6 (Apr 28, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> I little "fluency" attempt with Hollywood Strings - Violas.
> http://picosong.com/wC6hY/
> Quick and dirty but that's the road I'd go down for this kind of playing - and the those tracks will rest until I'll have a real recording! :D



I think you're right about the round robin, that's what it needs 'cos somehow it's a bit machine gunnish here. Not sure what patches you've used though.


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## Hasen6 (Apr 28, 2018)

SBK said:


> Have you tried, Musical Sampling Adventure Strings? With spiccato and shorter release?



No but I doubt that would do since it's not the right articulation. It needs at least a measured tremolo to get anywhere near these types of performance..and for several in my long example medley even the measured tremolo wouldn't be enough.

I think probably a library like a string runs building block library needs to be made but for slower runs and lyrical measured tremolo lines.


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## Rob (Apr 28, 2018)

Hasen6 said:


> Hehe that's persistence.  The bow texture is quite nice but it's missing the tremolo type effect. It's not bad overall. What did you think of my mockup of it?


not bad but to me it lacks attack... it's true that the bow isn't leaving the string but the sudden change of direction gives an accent anyway...


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## Lionel Schmitt (Apr 28, 2018)

Hasen6 said:


> I think you're right about the round robin, that's what it needs 'cos somehow it's a bit machine gunnish here. Not sure what patches you've used though.


Yep - two patches without round robin I believe (repetition run builder and measured tremolos) and the actual notes with multisampled spiccatos. Layered.


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## Hasen6 (Apr 28, 2018)

Rob said:


> not bad but to me it lacks attack... it's true that the bow isn't leaving the string but the sudden change of direction gives an accent anyway...


Yes it gives an accent but it's what happens _between_ the notes that is so important. Like with string runs. Make me a great isolated string run with just staccatos that sounds great and I'll give you a cigar. It's basically the exact same problem.

But really what I'm trying to say is it was my unsatisfaction with my mockup that made me post here in the first place. You have to admit, no one in the thread has really done better than my mockup.


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## Rob (Apr 28, 2018)

Hasen6 said:


> Yes it gives an accent but it's what happens _between_ the notes that is so important. Like with string runs. Make me a great isolated string run with just staccatos that sounds great and I'll give you a cigar. It's basically the exact same problem.


well, no... a run is done with several notes in one bowing, while left fingers provide the notes. Absolutely different problem. In fast repetitions it's the bow to give rhythmic impulses



> But really what I'm trying to say is it was my unsatisfaction with my mockup that made me post here in the first place. You have to admit, no one in the thread has really done better than my mockup.


if you ask me, I like my (or Noam's) mockup better... sincerely, I'm not challenging you, that's how I hear it


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## SBK (Apr 28, 2018)

I hear something between spiccatos and staccatos

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/test-mp3.13189/][/AUDIOPLUS]

Used 2 layers, 1 spiccatos 1 staccatos, musical sampling Adventure Strings.


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## Hasen6 (Apr 28, 2018)

Rob said:


> well, no... a run is done with several notes in one bowing, while left fingers provide the notes.


A run will not necessarily be finished in one bowing since it depends how long the run is. It may require several bowings in a row.

Both articulations are made without the bow leaving the strings, that's why it's basically the same problem ie you can't simulate it with a patch that is separated notes. At least it won't be easy. It's like in the past people would try to simulate legato by messing around endlessly with cc data. A staccato note is made with the bow leaving the strings. That's the difference.



Rob said:


> if you ask me, I like my (or Noam's) mockup better... sincerely, I'm not challenging you, that's how I hear it



Actually I prefer yours. His could be good with some EQ or perhaps a combination of yours and his together might be not bad.

But anyway, I'm not talking about preferences, I'm talking about significantly better. In recent years mockups have become insanely realistic. I even heard a mockup of the Star Wars fanfare that was incredible. Many mockups can even fool us composers, never mind the average person. The mockups in this thread of the original piece sound ok but they wouldn't even fool the average person.

Not to mention that the first track I posted is the easiest of all the examples I posted to mock up. The 'slow' runs used so many times in the long JW medley would be even harder to do for example.


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## Hasen6 (Apr 28, 2018)

SBK said:


> I hear something between spiccatos and staccatos
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/test-mp3.13189/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> Used 2 layers, 1 spiccatos 1 staccatos, musical sampling Adventure Strings.



Put down the machine gun!  Seriously though it needs some round robin. Also some measured tremolos to give it that texture. Has potential though.


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## NoamL (Apr 29, 2018)

Hasen6 said:


> You have to admit, no one in the thread has really done better than my mockup.



I think Rob's is good.



Hasen6 said:


> A staccato note is made with the bow leaving the strings.



Perhaps you have staccato and spiccato confused?


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## NoamL (Apr 29, 2018)

Also, you called the passages you culled from JW scores *"slow runs"*... I can't say that this means anything to me??... perhaps this is an example of where sample-library language and sheet-music language just don't mesh.

Here it is in JW's handwriting, you can see he has written 8th notes with lines through them to indicate 16th note repetitions: AABBCCDD etc.



Similar passage in ET. Again, eighth notes with a slash:



There is nothing "run" like about these passages because they are all separate bows.

When I think of string runs in a JW context I think of the broom theme from Harry Potter (the viola+Clarinet counterpoint, not the violin melody):



If I had to do something similar in a mockup I would use the marcato legato patch in CSS with the spiccato overlay turned off. Then I would turn on the overlay for the ascending vln+viola line with the accented groups of triplets leading back into the recap (3:30).


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## Hasen6 (Apr 29, 2018)

NoamL said:


> I think Rob's is good.



See my comment about personal preferences.



NoamL said:


> Perhaps you have staccato and spiccato confused?


Spiccato comes from the past participle of the Italian verb spiccare, meaning "to separate".


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## Hasen6 (Apr 29, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Also, you called the passages you culled from JW scores *"slow runs"*... I can't say that this means anything to me??... perhaps this is an example of where sample-library language and sheet-music language just don't mesh.



It's something unique to the sample world. Try making a run with a run builder and then slow it down slightly. It won't work because the slurs and pitch bends will be too slow. But in the real world this is entirely possible.



NoamL said:


> Here it is in JW's handwriting, you can see he has written 8th notes with lines through them to indicate 16th note repetitions: AABBCCDD etc.



They're notes with a slash, measured tremolos. What's your point here?



NoamL said:


> Similar passage in ET. Again, eighth notes with a slash:



Ok. They're extremely fast and almost seem like runs here. I think my examples were better since they weren't quite so fast.



NoamL said:


> There is nothing "run" like about these passages because they are all separate bows.



They're multiple up and down bows but the notes are not separated like with staccato. Especially when moving from note to note. They will be no slur or pitch bend with a staccato but there will be with tremolos since it's so fast and constant. There's also a lot more 'bow' sound with measured tremolos but there isn't so much with a simple staccato or spiccato.



NoamL said:


> When I think of string runs in a JW context I think of the broom theme from Harry Potter (the viola+Clarinet counterpoint, not the violin melody):



I think you're referring to normal fast runs. How would you describe 1:32 in the New Hope march? How would you mock that up?



NoamL said:


> If I had to do something similar in a mockup I would use the marcato legato patch in CSS with the spiccato overlay turned off. Then I would turn on the overlay for the ascending vln+viola line with the accented groups of triplets leading back into the recap (3:30).



For string runs?

I think we're being caught up in semantics rather than the actually practicality of mocking up these articulations with a high level of realism and relative ease.


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## Hasen6 (Apr 29, 2018)

I downloaded all the good entries and compared them together and with the original track and to be honest a big problem is round robin. It may have enough for spiccatos or staccatos but with measured tremolos we're repeating _so_ much and so often the exact same note in a row that much more round robins are needed. But even with that we're still quite a way off sounding much like the original track.

Why is it someone can mock up the Star Wars fanfare and fool even composers, but even just one instrument section performing this articulation can't be mocked up realistically to even fool the average person.


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## Erik (Apr 29, 2018)

@Hasen6, will this JW Imperial March fragment, vl.1 only, come close for you?

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/jw-im-vl1-mp3.13193/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Hasen6 (Apr 29, 2018)

Erik said:


> @Hasen6, will this JW Imperial March fragment, vl.1 only, come close for you?
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/jw-im-vl1-mp3.13193/][/AUDIOPLUS]



This mockup really shows how the separation of the notes is an issue. It also has the round robin issue. God knows how many round robins we'd need for simulating measured tremolos without issue.


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## SBK (Apr 29, 2018)

Its not Round Robin the problem so much since Musical sampling has like 7-8 layers. Its that the original is a real play isn't it? Sounds like it though. You need specialized libraries in the spirit of Action Strings with long patterns to do that, it might be done with them now that I think of. You can't have a very realistic playing with adding a million single notes in the Daw like machine gun as you say


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## markleake (Apr 29, 2018)

@Hasen6. I don't think the problem here is round robins. The machine gunning you refer to is more to do with the bowing and the attack. The articulations are not running out of RR here. The way real players play they will not be attacking the strings the same way as how the staccatos/spiccato/whatever articulation is recorded in your examples, and I think that goes even for the libraries that have measured tremolo to some degree, even though that gets closer. Also, the measured tremolo is probably not recorded at the dynamics you are wanting, which is why it is difficult to replicate the sound you are referring to. Although some of the attempts here sound good enough for a good mockup.

From what I understand of your comments, you are meaning the bowing is continuing from the previous attack into the next attack? I think the best way to address that (to make it more realistic) is to record the articulation as a phrase, rather than try and artificially recreate all the dynamics of what the player is doing between each played note. I'm not sure if the phrase libraries out there attempt this or not. It will depend a lot on the speed they are playing at also.


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## Saxer (Apr 29, 2018)

To me it sounds like searching for a problem where no real problem is. Sure it doesn't sound 100% like the real thing. You will always find a difference if you listen close enough. But it isn't so that every good mockup sounds great except the measured tremolos. There's a difference between sample world and real musicians. But it transports the musical intention, energy, and sound like any other sampling situation... probably even better than most other articulations. Or you could trick around with attack times to avoid hard attacks etc. Just my 5¢...

But maybe the USoE articulation "Sautille" will get you closer...?


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## Hasen6 (Apr 29, 2018)

SBK said:


> Its not Round Robin the problem so much since Musical sampling has like 7-8 layers. Its that the original is a real play isn't it? Sounds like it though. You need specialized libraries in the spirit of Action Strings with long patterns to do that, it might be done with them now that I think of. You can't have a very realistic playing with adding a million single notes in the Daw like machine gun as you say



7-8 layers is not a lot for this kind of articulation. It's very machine gunnish so that must be the problem. And like I said, (actually several times now) there are many mockups around of whole pieces that can barely be discerned from the original. That's really the standard these days. Not for every piece or every articulation but for many things we can get really close.

You're right it's not the only problem though, the main problem is you're using a spiccato to imitate a tremolo...measured or not that's what's happening. We wouldn't use spiccatos to mock up a tremolo, so why use them with a measured tremolo? That's really the issue here but more round robins would help at least with what you're using to try to imitate this.


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## Hasen6 (Apr 29, 2018)

markleake said:


> @Hasen6. I don't think the problem here is round robins. The machine gunning you refer to is more to do with the bowing and the attack.



A real tremolo never sounds like a machine gun. More round robins would certainly help as you need a hell of a lot to basically simulate a tremolo. Something we would never even attempt to do because it's repeating way too much too quickly. It probably sounds more machine gun like to my ear though because I have a problem/talent in that area.



markleake said:


> The articulations are not running out of RR here. The way real players play they will not be attacking the strings the same way as how the staccatos/spiccato/whatever articulation is recorded in your examples, and I think that goes even for the libraries that have measured tremolo to some degree, even though that gets closer. Also, the measured tremolo is probably not recorded at the dynamics you are wanting, which is why it is difficult to replicate the sound you are referring to. Although some of the attempts here sound good enough for a good mockup.



A mockup yes but not if you're trying to create a track that sounds like a real orchestra which if samples are what you're gonna use for your final product, then that will normally be your goal.



markleake said:


> From what I understand of your comments, you are meaning the bowing is continuing from the previous attack into the next attack? I think the best way to address that (to make it more realistic) is to record the articulation as a phrase, rather than try and artificially recreate all the dynamics of what the player is doing between each played note. I'm not sure if the phrase libraries out there attempt this or not. It will depend a lot on the speed they are playing at also.



Yes some phrase libraries have this but it's not flexible ie you can't create any of the examples here. A building block library like Orchestral tools strings run would be great. Although like you say, there aren't enough dynamics available which is not surprising since hardly anyone ever even provides this extremely common articulation in their libraries.

If there was a library where they'd but a lot into it ie many round robins, many dynamics, link in between notes like you get with legato patches etc then you'd probably be a lot more equipped to emulate some of this.


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## JeeTee (Apr 29, 2018)

How about this? Any better?
This, by the way, is EW Hollywood Orchestra -

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/faststringsgt-mp3.13197/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/faststringsgt-mp3.13197/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## SBK (Apr 29, 2018)

JeeTee said:


> How about this? Any better?
> This, by the way, is EW Hollywood Orchestra -
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/faststringsgt-mp3.13197/][/AUDIOPLUS]


I think you nailed it. sound like the original to me


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## Thorgod10 (Apr 30, 2018)

JeeTee said:


> How about this? Any better?
> This, by the way, is EW Hollywood Orchestra -
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/faststringsgt-mp3.13197/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Amazing job. What patches did you use?


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## JeeTee (Apr 30, 2018)

Thorgod10 said:


> Amazing job. What patches did you use?


For the upper strings - Stac On, Stac, Staccatissimo and Spic. I did different programming for each articulation, randomized the round robin start times with CC32,and then blended to taste. There's no way I could get it to sound good with just one articulation...


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## germancomponist (Apr 30, 2018)

JeeTee said:


> ... There's no way I could get it to sound good with just one articulation...



This!


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