# Is there a typical career path for a working composer?



## anogo (Sep 17, 2010)

I apologize if this has been covered ad nauseam: Is there a typical career path for a working composer?

Schooling? Assisting? Music libraries? Commercials? Video games? Independent films? Something else I don't know about?

Thanks!


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## RiffWraith (Sep 17, 2010)

Bryan T @ Sat Sep 18 said:


> Is there a typical career path for a working composer?



Nope.


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## anogo (Sep 17, 2010)

RiffWraith @ Fri Sep 17 said:


> Nope.



Figures.


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## anogo (Sep 17, 2010)

Folmann @ Fri Sep 17 said:


> point being that networking, exposure and desire to reach out is as important as your music. Its common that younger composers downplay this part and disregard it as less important.



Excellent point. That is certainly my Achilles' heel. Partly due to not knowing who to network with and how to get exposure and partly due to disliking rejection.


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## poseur (Sep 17, 2010)

Bryan T @ Fri Sep 17 said:


> Folmann @ Fri Sep 17 said:
> 
> 
> > point being that networking, exposure and desire to reach out is as important as your music. Its common that younger composers downplay this part and disregard it as less important.
> ...


b,
if you not only dislike rejection, but truly can't handle nor manage it,
becoming a film-composer is def not worth the work, imo;
"rejection" is a daily event --- or, nearly so --- for many (if not _all_) film-composers:
part of the job, really.

as far as i can tell, there are 5 clear paths towards becoming a working composer:
1) get "lucky", w/an instant connection to scoring a film that becomes a box-office hit
(even if your brilliant "luck" depends upon yrs & yrs of hard work/suffering
to have your own, pre-filmic music heard --- "successfully"), and
5) work your ass off, sometimes in a variety of different capacities, in film-music, and.....

surely, i jest!
i hope so.
but.....

best,
d


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## anogo (Sep 17, 2010)

poseur @ Fri Sep 17 said:


> b,
> if you not only dislike rejection, but truly can't handle nor manage it,
> becoming a film-composer is def not worth the work, imo;
> "rejection" is a daily event --- or, nearly so --- for many (if not _all_) film-composers:
> part of the job, really.



Maybe 'rejection' isn't even the right word. I'm fine with people not liking my music. Heck, I can often agree with them about the reasons they don't like it. Tastes are tastes, you know? Sometimes, my idea doesn't fit with their idea.

I think what bothers me more is being ignored. You put yourself out there and then . . . nothing. It isn't a big deal if you have a bunch of things in the works, but is if you've only got a few things going. 



> as far as i can tell, there are 5 clear paths towards becoming a working composer:
> 1) get "lucky", w/an instant connection to scoring a film that becomes a box-office hit
> (even if your brilliant "luck" depends upon yrs & yrs of hard work/suffering
> to have your own, pre-filmic music heard --- "successfully"), and
> ...



Thanks for your thoughts!


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## Mike Greene (Sep 17, 2010)

Bryan T @ Fri Sep 17 said:


> I think what bothers me more is being ignored. You put yourself out there and then . . . nothing. It isn't a big deal if you have a bunch of things in the works, but is if you've only got a few things going.


Unfortunately, that's how rejection is usually handled - silence. Clients are really bad about calling back to say you didn't get the gig.


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## Ian Dorsch (Sep 17, 2010)

poseur @ Fri Sep 17 said:


> if you not only dislike rejection, but truly can't handle nor manage it,
> becoming a film-composer is def not worth the work, imo;
> "rejection" is a daily event --- or, nearly so --- for many (if not _all_) film-composers:
> part of the job, really.



Quoted for truth, and that goes equally for a working composer in games, advertising, whatever. Not only will you be rejected, you will be rejected by people who don't know their asses from a proverbial hole in the ground. You will have to decipher nonsensical musical feedback from non-musicians, and breakdowns in communication will lead to days or weeks of frustration. You will write music of which you are truly, genuinely proud, only to have to dismantle and defile it. As you say, people have different tastes, and you will find yourself in situations where you are asked to write music that you find personally tasteless, and to do it brilliantly.

If you persevere you may eventually have the thrill of collaborating with the type of people who make the whole thing worth while. When _they_ reject your stuff, it's not quite as painful.


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## anogo (Sep 17, 2010)

RiffWraith @ Fri Sep 17 said:


> Bryan T @ Sat Sep 18 said:
> 
> 
> > RiffWraith @ Fri Sep 17 said:
> ...



Yep. Sorry if that came off as flippant. That wasn't my intention.


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## MacQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Be social with people in the industry. Know all of the names of all the big players in your market. These might include knowing the names of (and hopefully developing relationships with) audio post people, visual effects and finishing people, and especially film and music editors. Nothing gets you in the door faster than a personal recommendation. A HUGE amount of my work has been by referral.

Oh, and get to know producers and directors most of all. A good working relationship with a producer can (and does) lead to a steady stream of work without much hustle required. 

Musical chops are great, but a great sales-pitch and ass-kissing will get you a lot more gigs than anything else. People like working with friends, and if you make yourself a friend ... people will work with you.

(I mean, you still have to bring it musically, but that should be almost the least of your concern, ironically.)

~Stu


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## poseur (Sep 18, 2010)

Mike Greene @ Fri Sep 17 said:


> Bryan T @ Fri Sep 17 said:
> 
> 
> > I think what bothers me more is being ignored. You put yourself out there and then . . . nothing. It isn't a big deal if you have a bunch of things in the works, but is if you've only got a few things going.
> ...


yup!
lotsa silences available to us, in this career.....
although, it seems that the plethora of silences can decrease,
w/either luck or dogged perseverance, or both.

uh-oh!
vi-participant, beware:
here comes another rambling, rolling, thinking-out-loud post:

i was thinking, myself, a little bit about the inevitable specifics of actual cue-rejection:
those moments i've experienced,
in which i think i've understood a director's needs/wishes,
but find out --- in playback --- that this is not at all true.
not so terrible, maybe, until it happens a second time, w/the same cue now rewritten,
when i know (now, for certain) that i've done what was asked of me:
but, he hates it.
that, for me, is a very, very "special" kind of rejection.
hard to contend with, but: it happens.

as an aside, laterally but definitely related, somehow,
at very least in that the paradigm of repetitive-cue-rejection can lead to this:
i had a very bad moment on my very first studio picture.

to buttress me up w/support,
a rather popular (& deservedly lauded, imo) film-composer whom i truly respect pointed out to me that,
on every film that means _anything_ to him,
there comes a point in the process when he can do nothing "right"
and finds himself alone, lying on the floor in the dark,
deadline-clocks both ticking & tocking,
and he feels utterly confused, shattered & lost to his own creative direction,
to his choice-of-career,
and just waiting, _waiting_ for all that to "pass".....
which, when finally picking himself up from the floor after hours of this darkened, sadsack reverie
and getting himself "back to work", it will do:
it will pass.

more directly to b's query:
i suppose i've had a fairly illustrious life in music.
when i was younger, i was not lucky, per sé;
living quite far from the art & music filled metropolitan centers,
far from the business-of-music hubs,
at 25 yrs old i found myself wallowing in self-pity & extremely premature,
extremely self-entitled bitternesses,
as well as humongous question marks re: my self-confidence,
and how to move forward.....
..... so that i could keep involved in music, for the rest of my life.
besides that?
i was dead broke, working day-jobs, and generally failing at being a first-time father.
so, i kicked my own ass, w/the pointy-toed boots of my lovely wife's support & insistence.
i began sending letters & packages of music to every working artist i respected, though i didn't know them,
and they didn't know me.
i blew no-one; i blew no smoke; i did no weird, unwarranted favors for anyone.
we moved to nyc, and i auditioned for everyone, just to keep moving, see & feel things,
find my place where none was to be found:
as an instrumentalist, i auditioned for foreigner, for a very young madonna
(for whom, years later as the wheel turns, i co-wrote a "hit single").

i had my music, my little (but, pretty good & burgeoning) reputation,
pen & paper, a telephone & the US Postal Service.
a few doors opened, slowly;
gil evans called me, invited me to visit him, which i did.
i spent 2 days w/teo macero, in his studio, learning from him & discussing 
the application of "new technologies").
not because i asked to do so:
because i sent them intelligent, querying letters.....
and w/my music enclosed, to which they both responded exceedingly well & very supportively, especially in gil's case.
at one point, somehow --- because i approached this on my own recognizance, maybe,
or because i approached the whole magilla from a perspective of deep personal need,
with a strongly investigative nature,
i acquired peter gabriel's home phone number.
so: i called him.
woke him up. didn't know what to say, felt like a complete asshole, didn't even pronounce my own name correctly:
ha! idiocy.
i just rang off, since i felt so foolish --- he was a pan-idiomatic hero, almost, to me,
and i was intruding (pun intended) into a good man's life.
i moved on, w/less hubris, but no less dedication.

i cannot count how many packages i sent out, how many silly/crap/great gigs i played,
with how many folks i wrote and/or recorded.
but, i did enough communicating that my music & playing were actually
"getting out there", really:
because i had to do so, as, at the time, i was certainly no social butterfly,
but was more than little uncomfortable, socially-speaking.

i was offered, and excitedly agreed to, a nice recording deal w/the label i most respected in the world.
i kept going: reaching out, gently & simply, to musicians and creative people, in general,
whom i truly respected,
though these working people were now reaching out to me.

coupla years on, mr. gabriel called me, about a recording project of his,
having no idea he was ringing one of thsoe idiot-kids that'd woken him up,
late one night, and disrespecting his sacrosanct privacy.

is there a moral to these disjointed, maybe boring little autobiographical snippets?
nah, probably not.
but, there is that old adage:
"better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all", right?
a similar attitude might be applied to our relationship with music, w/music for film:
sometimes, ya just gotta keep going,
without stopping to look in the self-analysis mirror for too long,
without allowing your life become an endless preparing-for, an infinite worrying-about
_what_ or _how_ one "should" enter their career,
in place of actually doing (multiple) something(s).
and, the same might apply to one's creative process, maybe:
take the risk. take the plunge. do it with forethought & no small doses of intestinal fortitude,
do something with some trust in your own instincts & self-regulatory systems.
i dunno.
apply your creative thinking both to your muse, and to your muse's health & well-being.
maybe?
"trust in g-d, but tie your camel"?
i dunno.
but, i'm clearly rambling, here, again.....

d


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## anogo (Sep 18, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. You've given me a lot to think about.


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## ChrisAxia (Sep 18, 2010)

Nice post Monsieur Poseur. 

I share some similarities with your experiences. I have spoken to music students in recent years and one thing I always tell them is to not discount working with anyone, because they never know where it might lead. My contributing to part of a Hollywood score was the indirect result of advertising a hard disk case in a free ads paper! 

~Chris


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## Rob (Sep 18, 2010)

wow, Poseur, what a joy to read a musican like you disclosing some of his inner thoughts and reflections so sincerely... thank you


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## poseur (Sep 18, 2010)

Rob @ Sat Sep 18 said:


> wow, Poseur, what a joy to read a musican like you disclosing some of his inner thoughts and reflections so sincerely... thank you


you're welcome, rob.
as little & intermittently as i hang out, here, well.....
..... i suppose that, in between long periods of focussing completely on "work",
i do take heart in interacting & communicating with friends & peers.

and, i do know bryan t, personally, to be a unique & talented musician;
i feel like it's ok to simply open these damned floodgates, once in a while,
esp. if it's in the hope that some explications of experience-in-the-field
might help necessarily frustrated creative peeps find new ways forward
--- both internal & external ---
even if only a little bit,
and even if i gotta expose my own complex "feelings", somewhat, in so doing.

_any_ lifelong-path in music can certainly be difficult, and personally frustrating;
most of us know this, or at very least remember it.

besides, i'd drunk just enough absinthe, last night,
to kinda loosen the tongue and unleash it on the keyboard.
ha!
a now-rare occasion, frankly speaking.

d


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## anogo (Sep 18, 2010)

poseur @ Sat Sep 18 said:


> and, i do know bryan t, personally, to be a unique & talented musician;
> i feel like it's ok to simply open these damned floodgates, once in a while,
> esp. if it's in the hope that some explications of experience-in-the-field
> might help necessarily frustrated creative peeps find new ways forward
> ...



I enjoy it when the floodgates are opened. I keep trying different things (as you obviously did), so eventually something is going to stick. I just need to make sure I'm doing all that I can to push things forward, which I'm not . . .



> _any_ lifelong-path in music can certainly be difficult, and personally frustrating;
> most of us know this, or at very least remember it.



Hopefully (?!?), that makes any payoff even sweeter.



> besides, i'd drunk just enough absinthe, last night,
> to kinda loosen the tongue and unleash it on the keyboard.
> ha!
> a now-rare occasion, frankly speaking.
> ...


 
o-[][]-o


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## wst3 (Sep 18, 2010)

an observation, inspired by one of the tales in Poseur's wonderful post (amazing the things that can catch your attention!)...

fear of success and fear of failure are not all that far apart I think! They are also closely related to that fear of rejection thing.

All three serve as obstacles, and they afflict people of every possible origin and destination, and they really need to be banished!

Quick, silent poll - how many hear have ever held off on sharing their work because they just knew they could do it better if they could only purchase this reverb or that library?

Fear of success? Or fear of Failure?

Don't know, don't care! We all need to get past that. Used to mean trips to the post office, now it means posting on the internet, or finding new and different avenues.

For a variety of reasons, none of which I care to delve into at the moment, I find myself in a position where it's going to be tricky to get to the point where music is my sole source of income. Still the goal, still working to banish my own demons that stand in the way, and still learning lessons along the way.

On of the outlets for my artistic side is live theatre. I love doing music, sound design, lighting design, playing in the pit, whatever. Live theatre is an amazing experience!

I have worked with one particular director on over 30 shows. We've grown together, developed our own shorthand, and had reached a point where we each helped each other realize newer and bolder ideas. I do remember some nasty battles in the beginning, but that was a long time ago.

A couple of years ago we were 'handed' the opportunity to stage a production of "Godspell" - and we were not going to just do it the same old way. We came up with a really clever way to present it (at least we thought so), and even though it did not require new music, it was an interesting challenge to try to adapt the songs to the new presentation.

TRAINWRECK CITY! Complete, unmitigated, unbelievable disaster, to the point where the director and I have not collaborated since, and barely speak. (This is exacerbated, since the director is my baby brother<G>!)

Turns out, though I did not pick up on it, and I'm not even sure he did, that what he really wanted was exactly what is on the Broadway Original Cast Recording, no updates, no adaptations, nothing clever at all.

Now if this had been stated at the beginning I'd have still played in the pit, it's a fun show, but I would not have taken on the responsibilities of Music Director. And I would not have spent countless hours mocking up ideas that he never even listened to.

Is there a point to this long post? Yeah... rejection can come at any time, and in many different forms. Fact is, you just can not guess when you'll suddenly lose the connection with the rest of the artistic staff. It will happen, and one of the most important lessons I've learned along the way is how to deal with the reality that it happens.

This is just one of the many factors that comes into play when one starts a career in any artistic arena. And in fact, it happens in accounting and engineering and probably lots of other fields. You want rejection? Get into sales<G>!

Returning to the original question, I don't think there are any typical paths, but I think there are a lot of tried and true things one can do along whatever path one chooses.

And if there is a shortcut I'd dearly love it if someone would send it to me in a PM<G>!


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## José Herring (Sep 18, 2010)

I find many of the post very, very excellent.

I only have a few things to add to this great thread. Though I find my experience not nearly universal here's what I've noticed over the years.

As Troels mentioned it takes both a dedication to doing the best work as well as networking and social skills. I kind of headed in the opposite direction than most people. I was adept at networking calling( believe it or not I'm a very friendly fellow) and got some big ass opportunities very early on, only to kind of fall flat because I didn't have the necessary productions skills to pull it off. Since then I've spent a lot of time focusing on my production skills and I'm now finally starting to delivery on projects that I'm proud to be associated with.

But for me it took a lot of hard introspection and about 5 years ago I just came to the conclusion that I wasn't getting the work I wanted to get because quite frankly I wasn't good enough. So I sat down and talked with a few top rated professionals in Film and TV and asked them to be honest with me and not to feed me the standard, " you're so talented and someday you'll be very successful...blah, blah, blah". The more honest ones told me the truth and I actually worked with a composer about 3 years ago that bluntly rejected a cue that I was writing for him. He didn't even go into why but it got me thinking.

If this is a typical career path I wouldn't know. But, what I would suggest is to become friends with a composer that you really admire. Like go to lunch be friendly ect... Then ask them to be honest about what you do. Be prepared because I doubt that you'll like what you're about to receive. But if you can take it on the chin like man and get up afterward you'll realize why your successful composer friend is successful. And usually you'll find out that they really know what they're doing and you'll also find out that they've suffered through some pretty hard knocks too.

Just make sure that you really appreciate the work of your critics. Because if you don't then you're trying to "learn" from somebody who's music or style has no bearing on what you're trying to accomplish.

best,

Jose


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## Narval (Sep 18, 2010)

Yes there is, it's called servicing.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 18, 2010)

Now THIS is an amazing thread! Poseur, Jose and others, you blow me away with your generous honesty. I will re-read this thread more than once, as there is much to learn. And I think that's one key: stay open, keep learning.

I've been rejected 6 or 7 times in a row this year (still waiting for 'the call' on #7). I really did not expect this, after being on national tv, on prime-time this year, but such is luck in this biz. There are clear cycles, and you just hang on, if you can, when you have a bad run (continued royalties from previous projects help). 

Nevertheless, with regular rejections, it's hard not to get down on yourself, but I will say it's easier when you've been around long enough to have done a bunch of things you're proud of. Still, it's forced me to re-think the way I work: I've decided that to get to the next stage, I will have to hire more musicians, rely less on samples and my limited playing abilities. And so perhaps, a bad run has yielded a good move, some growth.

The most important advice, imho? Hang in there. Unless you're bad.  :wink:


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## anogo (Sep 18, 2010)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Sep 18 said:


> The most important advice, imho? Hang in there. Unless you're bad.  :wink:



At the very least, I should hang in there to find out if I am bad.


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## David Story (Sep 18, 2010)

Hanging in there helps you get good





And you can meet people, who know people.


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## poseur (Sep 19, 2010)

Bryan T @ Sat Sep 18 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Sep 18 said:
> 
> 
> > The most important advice, imho? Hang in there. Unless you're bad.  :wink:
> ...



you'll never be a "bad" musician or composer, b, unless that's what you decide to be..... somehow?
hmmm.

you'll play bad stuff, write bad stuff, mix or record badly, do bad deals,
have bad deals done to ya, do meetings badly, etc etc etc, but.....
with a freaking steady ear to the grindstone,
continuously creating new material & "sharing" & communicating it _outwardly_,
building both the strengths of your own voice AND your body-of-work;
that's the ticket, i think.
maybe.
yeah, that's it.
that's the ticket.
yup.
maybe.

d


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## EMPscoring (Sep 19, 2010)

Hey Bryan-

Great question. I definitely know the feeling as a fellow LA composer. Like others have said, there isn't any one answer, but the one that worked for me was networking (not to say I've "made it" yet - I'll wait until I have opening credit on a major film first ). I used to work at Fox for several years and made some of the best connections. Those have led to trailer work for WB, Fox and indie stuff. Additionally I've worked in casting which put me in touch with producers and directors, and that has led to projects as well. 

But I think my best example comes from being invited to go with a friend to a random poker-night party hosted at some random home in bel-air. Turns out that home was a very mainstream film composers' and when I realized that, I went up to him and started talking about film composing and my favorite scores of his and then asked if I could take him out to lunch or dinner and pick his brain about his experiences in the film composing industry. He has been my friend and mentor ever since, letting me ghost-write a few cues on whatever films he works on, and teaching me about the industry. 

I feel pretty damn lucky I went that night, and it wasn't even an "industry" thing, just a group of people that like to get together and play poker.


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## anogo (Sep 19, 2010)

poseur @ Sun Sep 19 said:


> you'll never be a "bad" musician or composer, b, unless that's what you decide to be..... somehow?
> hmmm.



Most importantly, I enjoy my music, so I think you're right. 



> you'll play bad stuff, write bad stuff, mix or record badly, do bad deals,
> have bad deals done to ya, do meetings badly, etc etc etc, but.....
> with a freaking steady ear to the grindstone,
> continuously creating new material & "sharing" & communicating it _outwardly_,
> ...



Back to the grind.


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## wst3 (Sep 20, 2010)

poseur @ Sun Sep 19 said:


> you'll never be a "bad" musician or composer, unless that's what you decide to be..... somehow?
> hmmm.
> 
> you'll play bad stuff, write bad stuff, mix or record badly, do bad deals, have bad deals done to ya, do meetings badly, etc etc etc, but.....
> ...



You are just hitting them right out of the park lately. I am printing and posting that bit of advice on the wall of my studio (with proper attribution of course!)

Not only do I need to read that early and often, but so too do my guitar students...

So well said!

Thanks!!


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## JohnG (Sep 20, 2010)

Thanks to everyone -- a marvelous thread. This is what v.i. is all about.


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