# We need to talk about self-promotion



## mediumaevum (Oct 22, 2021)

It seems like VI is the only place on the entire internet that allows musicians to link to their own works.

In other words: There are far too few places where musicians are allowed to promote their own works or themselves.

Why is self-promotion so bad, and if self-promotion really is so bad, how are new musicians ever supposed to be allowed a chance to get heard, if they have no place to publish their music and have people talk about them?

I mean, you can publish on Youtube. But who would ever know you exists if you're not allowed to link to your channel or videos anywhere else?

We need to talk about this. It seems it is a global phenomenon.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Oct 22, 2021)

Good topic. I don’t think it’s limited only to musicians; rather many industries and fields that have a competitive nature to it don’t tend to appreciate self promotion from others too much in my experience. This is particularly true if you don’t have something of value to offer another person. 

So I think it’s wonderful that we have dedicated threads and groups now dedicated to self promotion to allow people to get their work out there. However, it’s become more important now than ever to attach your promotion with some element of value as well, whether that’s teaching, showing part of your process, or exchanging critique. 

Lots of possibilities, but we need to stand out from the field nowadays if we want to really earn others’ respect and attract our ideal clients. Just some thoughts!


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## mediumaevum (Oct 22, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Good topic. I don’t think it’s limited only to musicians; rather many industries and fields that have a competitive nature to it don’t tend to appreciate self promotion from others too much in my experience. This is particularly true if you don’t have something of value to offer another person.
> 
> So I think it’s wonderful that we have dedicated threads and groups now dedicated to self promotion to allow people to get their work out there. However, it’s become more important now than ever to attach your promotion with some element of value as well, whether that’s teaching, showing part of your process, or exchanging critique.
> 
> Lots of possibilities, but we need to stand out from the field nowadays if we want to really earn others’ respect and attract our ideal clients. Just some thoughts!


I completely agree with you. It is really sad that all Facebook and Youtube has to offer, is an individualized algorithm with no front page or forum to promote artists or video makers, musicians and others.

The internet needs a place to view, review and discuss business, art and music - AND allow for musicians, artists and business to make posts about their own works or products and receive feedback from customers, competitors and fellow artists. 

There once were such places on the internet. It was called "forums". They are a dying specie and have been replaced by facebook groups. 

The problem is that no facebook groups allow for such self-promotion. They're all locked to a specific group, country or region. For example there's a "Young Composers Forum" - only for young people (under 30). There's a "Copenhagen Musicians Group" - only for musicians in Copenhagen, not for the entire country. 

There's an "American Composers Forum". Only for Americans.

It's really starting to be a big problem. We need more globalization on the internet. It's why it was invented in the first place.


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## gamma-ut (Oct 22, 2021)

Who are you hoping to promote to? If you post on composers' forums, you are mostly only going to find other composers who are typically active consumers of music but probably aren't going to a composers' forum for that purpose. Getting feedback is all very well but if you want promotion in order to gain an active listener/fan base, these are not the places you are looking for. 

It's fair to say that Soundcloud, which offered a far better mix of users historically, has become gradually more hostile to Long Tail artists (somewhat bizarrely given that's where their funding that isn't venture capital comes from) and made it harder to promote within the platform by knocking out many of the old groups features. But there has never been a place where you just post or distribute music and sit back and wait for the listeners. You are going to have rely on word of mouth and other more traditional techniques, which largely haven't changed in decades.

Also, there's a reason why most forums and groups banned self-promotion - those that used to do it either found it became increasingly spammy and basically set up enclaves where it's OK to post – but where it's best to just not expect a lot.


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## mediumaevum (Oct 22, 2021)

gamma-ut said:


> Who are you hoping to promote to? If you post on composers' forums, you are mostly only going to find other composers who are typically active consumers of music but probably aren't going to a composers' forum for that purpose. Getting feedback is all very well but if you want promotion in order to gain an active listener/fan base, these are not the places you are looking for.
> 
> It's fair to say that Soundcloud, which offered a far better mix of users historically, has become gradually more hostile to Long Tail artists (somewhat bizarrely given that's where their funding that isn't venture capital comes from) and made it harder to promote within the platform by knocking out many of the old groups features. But there has never been a place where you just post or distribute music and sit back and wait for the listeners. You are going to have rely on word of mouth and other more traditional techniques, which largely haven't changed in decades.
> 
> Also, there's a reason why most forums and groups banned self-promotion - those that used to do it either found it became increasingly spammy and basically set up enclaves where it's OK to post – but where it's best to just not expect a lot.


So, -HOW- am I expected to promote my works of art/music? HOW am I expected to make people notice my works? If I can't post it anywhere and say "Hi, I exists!", how am I ever going to make other people recommend me or my works?

If you're forced to be invisible on social media, how are you supposed to promote your art?


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## gamma-ut (Oct 22, 2021)

You're not forced to be invisible. If you go to Reddit, for example, you will find various subs that will accept music (and some that will ban for self-promotion). The trick is getting noticed beyond groups like these and that's the bigger issue compared to whether some forums don't accept self-posted content.


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## mediumaevum (Oct 22, 2021)

gamma-ut said:


> You're not forced to be invisible. If you go to Reddit, for example, you will find various subs that will accept music (and some that will ban for self-promotion). The trick is getting noticed beyond groups like these and that's the bigger issue compared to whether some forums don't accept self-posted content.


And its that bigger issue of getting noticed beyond groups that I need some advice to get around.


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## muk (Oct 22, 2021)

mediumaevum said:


> And its that bigger issue of getting noticed beyond groups that I need some advice to get around.


What kind of music do you write? Film music? Game music? Music for media? Your target audience will be totally different depending on what you write. You seem to imply that it is art music. Again, it totally depends on what kind of art music. Chamber music? Symphonic? Opera? Art songs? All of them? And in ehat style? Non tonal? Minimal? Neo something?

If you are writing for the concert hall, naturally your goal would be to have your music performed. I struggle with that myself, but it seems that you need either to pay for a performance, or have good connections in the business. Posting your music on the internet will never lead to a performance if you don't have a name already. Such lucky breaks just don't happen. Thus, your time will be better spent by promoting by other means.

The only ones I can think of are that you know an ensemble, say a string quartet or a conductor, well enough that they will program one of your pieces. Or you find a well-known publisher that takes your scores in their program and promotes them for you. In the world of art music, these seem to be the ways to make something happen.


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## mediumaevum (Oct 22, 2021)

muk said:


> What kind of music do you write? Film music? Game music? Music for media? Your target audience will be totally different depending on what you write. You seem to imply that it is art music. Again, it totally depends on what kind of art music. Chamber music? Symphonic? Opera? Art songs? All of them? And in ehat style? Non tonal? Minimal? Neo something?


I compose mainly in the film music genre, if that's a genre on it's own. But I also make choral works and hymns. All of them rendered using VST's. What I want is to get people to know I'm here and listen to my music, watch my videos and comment, like and subscribe.

Money is not my main goal, at least not at the moment and have never been before.
Though I wonder why Youtube puts ads on my videos when I remember that years ago I said no to ads.

I'm not monetizing, I don't earn money and I haven't yet reached the lower limit of 1000 subscribers to earn money, and even if I did, I highly doubt I'd accept ads anyway.

I just want my channel to grow and connect.


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## MarkusS (Oct 22, 2021)

In a bit of a cynical mood today, don’t mean to offend anyone.  So there is this composer group on Facebook with many famous people and self promotion is strictly prohibited. So what you want to do is *hide* it cleverly.

The other day I saw a post on there going like this: I just scored this so and so game, recorded it with this or that orchestra and got this or that award for it. I’m very in demand now, everyone wants to work with me, I’m at the top of my game BUT here is the thing.. I kind of feel empty, dissatisfied, what is going on? Does anyone know this feeling? Admin approved, 300 likes, now that’s how you do it, son.


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## MartinH. (Oct 22, 2021)

MarkusS said:


> In a bit of a cynical mood today


Same, but not just today. I feel like "normal people" just don't care anymore about "just music". It either needs to be attached to a person that they can relate to and form a parasocial relationship with (vloggers, youtubers, popstars, established bands, etc.), or it needs to be attached to a narrative experience that they can emotionally connect with (like games or movies), or it needs to capitalize on some form of nostalgia or familiarity. 

If you have some genuinely good and unique music - realistically ... who even cares? Serious question. If you're serving a niche genre that is starved for releases that may be different, but how many of those are there left? 

Maybe I'm _too _cynical but I don't really feel like there even is a market anymore for "just music", because the abundance of music has reduced its intrinsic value to near nothing for most people.





MarkusS said:


> So there is this composer group on Facebook with many famous people and self promotion is strictly prohibited. So what you want to do is *hide* it cleverly.
> 
> The other day I saw a post on there going like this: I just scored this so and so game, recorded it with this or that orchestra and got this or that award for it. I’m very in demand now, everyone wants to work with me, I’m at the top of my game BUT here is the thing.. I kind of feel empty, dissatisfied, what is going on? Does anyone know this feeling? Admin approved, 300 likes, now that’s how you do it, son.


These are some next-level pro-strats! But if the person is that successful, why would they need to self-promote? I'm inclined to believe the suffering is real here.


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## Markrs (Oct 22, 2021)

The spamming is an issue on some groups on Facebook. I joined one trailer music group that allows promotion, and one guy posts all his YouTube on their everyday, constantly spamming the group, he is extreme, but overall it is quite spammy. So I left the group as except for constant self promotion there is no other comments or threads.

I do like listening to others music and I often do it on here and follow a lot of the VIC community on YouTube, but as others have mentioned to engage views you often have to give something as well, like a walkthrough of the track, etc.


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## Thomas Kallweit (Oct 22, 2021)

Music as some rich cultural asset seems to be treated like an underdog these days.
Therefore I can absolutely follow your thoughts @MartinH. and @MarkusS I get what you mean.

My impression: There is no focused crafty discourse about certain and new musical trends any more.
The rich and colourful decades of music genres in the last century are gone.

Blame it on the internet and disruption and blame it on the strong fixation of exhibitioned statistics at social networks. People learnt to subordinate to Youtube/FB*s steady changing orders. Now all there has to be: Show off as an influencer! So there has to be more iconic stuff to be than just putting out "music".

Personally I don't like it to have do some meta-stuff (making off and blablabla) on the music. Musicians / composers aren't speakers, therefore they are doing music. But without that xtra speakerthing no dimes.. so better you do it. For sure not everone's cup of favorite tea.
Here in my country mainly hiphop artists are the ones public media seem to write about the most, more often about them being back from jail or having other scandals. Really dark... and no real music to expect but influencer gangstas..

Other than that: Too much technical orientation, but this goes probably only to sound/music producers.
Listeners would not care that much.
But they signed more and more the contract with spotify...
Which is a good and too cheap, nearsighted and overwhelming deal. Here also the abundance is taking over - so much music, so little time (to speak about it), lots under the protective barrier of headphones etc.

So, I have no real answers unfortunately (being in a similar boat).

The cynical view: You have to have scandals or (better) other things which connect to real life.
Underlining to this: Some old stuff of mine of ancient times seems to get more attention at parts than newer stuff sometimes, because this had been published as physical product (before the interwebs)


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## quickbrownf0x (Oct 22, 2021)

Markrs said:


> The spamming is an issue on some groups on Facebook. I joined one trailer music group that allows promotion, and one guy posts all his YouTube on their everyday, constantly spamming the group, he is extreme, but overall it is quite spammy. So I left the group as except for constant self promotion there is no other comments or threads.
> 
> I do like listening to others music and I often do it on here and follow a lot of the VIC community on YouTube, but as others have mentioned to engage views you often have to give something as well, like a walkthrough of the track, etc.


I was bored, leave me alone!


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## Gingerbread (Oct 22, 2021)

I wonder if the lack of intrinsic value to new music today (regardless of its quality) has to do with the simple fact that it's purely digital, rather than physical?

It seems like the moment when it lost all its value was also the moment physical media (CDs, records, etc.) stopped being the way people bought and listened to it. In the same way that a piece of digital artwork just doesn't have the same emotional value as an actual painting you can hang on your wall.

Just a possibility. Thoughts?


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## Arbee (Oct 22, 2021)

Without wishing to make it sound even more challenging, getting attention is one thing but keeping that attention is equally necessary for continuity. And until you learn enough to produce your first "earworm", you'll need more resilience, self awareness and determination than you thought humanly possible.

If we assume the modern listening audience views music as a commodity, and we also assume they have a very short attention span, then we are certainly pushing s... uphill. And of course if you're doing instrumental music rather than vocal, then you've already lost 90% of them. 

The good news however, is that the folk who let you know how much they love your music do inspire you to keep going. With some reflection and research to identify your audience and your "brand", a good web site, a modest advertising budget (e.g. Google Ads) and a presence on YouTube/Spotify/Apple Music etc you can get enough exposure to at least know when you're on the right track.


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## ka00 (Oct 22, 2021)

Gingerbread said:


> I wonder if the lack of intrinsic value to new music today (regardless of its quality) has to do with the simple fact that it's purely digital, rather than physical?
> 
> It seems like the moment when it lost all its value was also the moment physical media (CDs, records, etc.) stopped being the way people bought and listened to it. In the same way that a piece of digital artwork just doesn't have the same emotional value as an actual painting you can hang on your wall.
> 
> Just a possibility. Thoughts?


That seems to make sense. But realize that the era in which music was primarily physical was also one that didn't have smartphones and social networks and never-ending streams of on-demand, professionally produced content from all times in history available to most people.

We are in _that_ world now, and if music today suddenly existed solely as physical objects you had to order off of amazon and plop onto a turntable or walk into a store to buy, that would probably make it even less likely to solve the problem of what to do in one's idle time.

I think there are just too many competing media now that are even more effective at hijacking a person's time and attention, that listening to music isn't one of the primary options for the average person on how to spend their free time. Back in that physically based world, it was books, movies, TV, theatre, music, etc. I don't think any of those are even in the top three anymore of things people fill their hours with.


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## Arbee (Oct 22, 2021)

Gingerbread said:


> I wonder if the lack of intrinsic value to new music today (regardless of its quality) has to do with the simple fact that it's purely digital, rather than physical?
> 
> It seems like the moment when it lost all its value was also the moment physical media (CDs, records, etc.) stopped being the way people bought and listened to it. In the same way that a piece of digital artwork just doesn't have the same emotional value as an actual painting you can hang on your wall.
> 
> Just a possibility. Thoughts?


Agree totally, there is more value in something tactile, and value in scarcity. Digitising anything, photos, music, books, diminishes that value. Books have been an interesting case study, where the touchy-feely nature of a real book has unexpectedly withstood the digital transformation to some extent.


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## averystemmler (Oct 23, 2021)

mediumaevum said:


> Why is self-promotion so bad



In the context of forums and groups not intended as personal advertising platforms: because it gets in the way. Unsolicited self-promotion is advertising and advertising is, by and large, obnoxious. If the ad isn't providing value to the group or its owner, it's just milking them for clicks. If it gets out of control, people leave. Hence, restrictions.



mediumaevum said:


> and if self-promotion really is so bad, how are new musicians ever supposed to be allowed a chance to get heard, if they have no place to publish their music and have people talk about them?



This is like asking for directions to the nearest gold vein. If we knew, it'd be mined already. 

In all seriousness though, that's the entire game. Corporations have risen and fallen around the singular goal of getting artists in front of people. It's hard. The people we all know about have put a LOT of effort into getting us to know about them.


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## Peter Williams (Oct 23, 2021)

The internet is the neo-Tower of Babel. We are living in a time of highly specialized skills and interests. It is very difficult to generate interest in art-music in whatever form, especially if it breaks with convention. I've tried to create a kind of poly-stylistic music that embraces the past, the present as well as current technology. Some like it, but others not so much, which I understand. Specialized persons often have very specialized interests in music, so my stuff can probably seem heretical and flippant to some. I am grateful for this forum, as I learn things that I would otherwise have very little exposure to. I'm not too interested in doing film or game music, but I very much respect the skill and effort involved with that craft and I do learn useful things from others' experiences with it. I'm 73 years old, been playing music since I was seven, and I'm now mostly content to save my work on decent quality cds and other media. I do use Soundcrowd and Farcebook, but to very little effect. You can't even find me on Soundcrowd unless you include my middle initial (B.), as Peter Williams is a common name.

P.S. I thought that the music business changed radically when music videos became popular in the '80s, because the musical artistry became compromised by the visual artistry, although occasionally the sum was greater than the parts. In general though, what you looked like became more important than what you sounded like.


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## Sub3OneDay (Oct 23, 2021)

I find this a really interesting thread. Perhaps because I’m a bit older?

I spent years playing in a band, and dreamed of the big break (which never came) so we went back to our day jobs and I write music now for my own satisfaction and if something comes of it by chance then great but I’m not really promoting myself anymore. 

But, what’s interesting for me here, is I come from the era of the demo tape. We didn’t have the internet or Facebook groups or soundcloud when I was younger and self promotion wasn’t in any way the internet - in fact an email mail shot when my band had a gig on was as probably as electronic as it got. 

Self-promotion was literally send off a tape or a cd to a label or promoter and hope someone played more than the first few seconds of it to like it and give you a call. 

I think that’s perhaps why I find interesting now - it seems to be coming full circle - taking the OPs original point - the internet is a bleak place when looking for somewhere to self promote but it wasn’t for a while until it all became about “monetised”…
But it seems to be gradually returning to something like the old days (goodness do I sound old?) -you’d get a tape done, a tape got you a gig, a gig got you another one if you got enough of your mates to come, a share of door receipts got cash to get a better tape done - and repeat.


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## Arbee (Oct 23, 2021)

Sub3OneDay said:


> I think that’s perhaps why I find interesting now - it seems to be coming full circle - taking the OPs original point - the internet is a bleak place when looking for somewhere to self promote but it wasn’t for a while until it all became about “monetised”…


The freedom and anarchy of the Internet was great for a while when the long tail wasn't so long, and before sales and marketing folk became involved, at which point covert sponsored opinion and covert online damage control became the norm.

But the integrity of online opinion can no longer be trusted, and the long tail has become too long and too tiresome for most folk to trawl through. So the pendulum is swinging back to aggregators (e.g. Spotify playlists) who sort through it to find the collection of "good stuff" to put in front of market segments. Not that far removed from record companies and radio stations of old.


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## audio1 (Oct 23, 2021)

There was a time when all you had to do was pick up a phone and call a potential client, ask them for a meeting or out to lunch to begin a work relationship. The person you were calling WAS the one that could hire you. If they were in a good mood the day you called you had a better chance. It was all luck of the draw, the idea was if you got to 10 meetings out of 100 calls you were potentially on your way. Then if you did a great job and the your new client/friend was happy, you would get more gigs and they would tell others about you and it was pretty easy to build a client list as long as you continued to do good work. I always use to say keeping the client was the easy part {if you delivered good consistent work on time} getting the gigs was the hard part. Clients use to view their favorite music composers as "gurus". They had a connection with the composer, and most important, they trusted their composers. All of this started to south around 2008 when music "supervisors" became more predominant. The problem with modern day music supervisor is they are just a extension of client dysfunction, a middleman put in between because everyone is afraid to voice a real opinion. So what do they do, they get a music sup to waste the time of many artists, composers, labels and publishers. heck, there are even music sups who call other music sups to work. It then becomes a circle jerk. Great tracks get rejected before anybody that matters {who is unafraid to voice their opinion} hears them. So why is this, so people can have plausible deniability and deflect blame...which is now excepted as a standard practice. Within this mess, promoting your self is a huge waste of time. Yes, some people get lucky and break thru, but the rest is people throwing darts blindfolded. Now, there are some really good smart music sups that get, but very few. The rest are just pimping out musicians and composers who don't know who to call....but even if they did.....nobody answers their work phone anymore so it hardly matters. Work relationships and collaboration are basically dead. You have a lot of non musician middle men who worked their way into the scene from the inside and they are the gate keepers now...and I promise you this, the last thing they want is for a composer to be sitting in on their meetings discussing music direction because they would be rendered useless quickly by a seasoned knowledgeable experienced composer very quickly. Sad that the opportunities to become a seasoned knowledgeable experienced composer have dwindled to people asking "how do I promote myself on the internet". I hope that makes sense.


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## X-Bassist (Oct 23, 2021)

mediumaevum said:


> I compose mainly in the film music genre, if that's a genre on it's own. But I also make choral works and hymns. All of them rendered using VST's. What I want is to get people to know I'm here and listen to my music, watch my videos and comment, like and subscribe.
> 
> Money is not my main goal, at least not at the moment and have never been before.
> Though I wonder why Youtube puts ads on my videos when I remember that years ago I said no to ads.
> ...


I understand you frustration. To me the internet is a good place for employers to see your work if they know they want you. But in most cases, YOU have to find THEM.

My advice is to think about starting a youtube channel. Find some simple stills that show the feel of the music, and lay 1 to 3 minutes of music on it. Make 2 or 3 of these a week, and see after a few months if you have some followers (nice, but not important - only 1 in 100,000 could hire you).

Then go to Mandy.com or productionHub (or any othe film production site) and look for ads looking for composers and contact them. Introduce yourself and why you love film (believe me, they do), let them know any work you've done, and why you want to work with them. Leave all your contact info and links to your channel, or if you want more control create a simple composer website on a platform like square space. This is all so you can leave them links (YES! working links please) to your work. Youtube is nice because they know the platform and can see users reactions. They get excited when they see other people are excited about your work. All the posting and followers are just for this one purpose, to get the client to give you a shot.

By building a website or a number of good videos on a Youtube page, you are showing your passion for your work, and that is infectious. You may not get a response the first few times, but just a few in 6 months can get you started. Then between references, clients returning, and you continuing to submit until you run out of time to (because your too busy) things will pickup. Nowadays you just have to be more persistent, and more patient, which no one else is. Keep working your craft, and posting your best stuff.

Then when you haven't seen your page for 6 months because work keeps calling, you can cancel the page and move on with your life. :D

Just come back here and share how it went.


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## bbunker (Oct 23, 2021)

One thing that hasn't been mentioned that probably should - is that you don't have a soundcloud, YouTube, IMDB, MySpace, Spotify, reelcrafter, etc link in your signature. So if someone wanted to hear what your music sounded like, they'd have to take steps beyond just clicking on the link at the bottom. And by that time, that someone probably stopped caring.

Maybe it's all just a reminder that self-promotion isn't necessarily finding a facebook group that will let you spam whatever the hot new two minutes of fame is - it could also be existing on the internet in a nice, helpful, thoughtful, interesting, intriguing, thought-provoking way when someone notices that you're a composer with a link to your music at the bottom. I don't care how good your material is or isn't - it'll seem better to a person who thinks that it was their idea to want to listen to it in the first place.

Maybe this is all a ploy to get you to listen to MY soundcloud page, because I have a link in my signature. Am I subtly convincing YOU that I am nice, helpful, thoughtful, etc.? The mind boggles.


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## Markrs (Oct 24, 2021)

So much in life is marketing. You are a company, product and service, fundamentally you are a brand. You have to know what you are selling, what your brand is, this doesn't just mean signature sounds, though it can do, but be known for being a team player, being reliable and delivering to deadlines. You could be very specialised in the music you create or very flexible. People like to know what they are getting and why they should use you over someone else.

You have to learn the art of selling yourself as a brand. This doesn't just mean posting SoundCloud links out but networking. You need to be visual, YouTube, forums, Facebook, not just spamming videos and links but engagement. It is good to engage in places like film/media groups/forums as they are the people that will use you, rather than those that are in the same field as you. Do music for student film makers. Many famous composer started out doing this. When that director moved through the ranks and became more successful the composer came with them.

You need to be helpful and supportive of others, to give the sense that you are a team player. Hiring someone is a risk, they need to some evidence that they have picked the right person and you are not going to be difficult. How well will you take instruction, after all the music is their to support the media and the director/studio vision, not your own.

Persistence is important, many people built profiles on YouTube and other places before they could move into music full time.

Look at places you can get your music working for you, like music libraries (they can still be quite a bit of rejection with this, but at least you can submit music to them) where they will get used, overtime (it can take years for your tracks to be used) and help become a calling card for each production it is used in, plus youna e also then getting paid for music, even if you still have a separate day job.

Many of us on here will stay hobbiests (like myself) because it is a long hard process to get to work full time in music. But if you want to make it, it will likely take a lot more than posting SoundCloud link on Facebook for that to happen.


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## el-bo (Oct 24, 2021)

Sub3OneDay said:


> But, what’s interesting for me here, is I come from the era of the demo tape. We didn’t have the internet or Facebook groups or soundcloud when I was younger and self promotion wasn’t in any way the internet - in fact an email mail shot when my band had a gig on was as probably as electronic as it got.


Email??!!?? You were lucky to have email.

When I were a gigging lad, we had to use the phone (A landline, at that!) and hand out flyers (Y'know...with our hands). We'd do this twenty-four hours a day[...]for fourpence every six years, and when we got home, our Dad would slice us in two with a bread knife.

But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't believe ya'


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## MarkusS (Oct 24, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Many of us on here will stay hobbiests (like myself)


You know with what you wrote I almost guessed that you were writing this from a hobbyist standpoint.

Sure, you need to do marketing as a composer, develop a brand, but unless your best buddy became a successful filmmaker or game developer or your family has connections you need to do marketing - like crazy.

Much, much more than a car salesman. A car salesman has many advantages over a composer. Everyone needs a car at some point, your music? Not so much. A car salesmen actually chose to make selling his living, you? You wanted to do music. A car salesman was educated to sell, you? Learned music theory and production. A car salesman has behind him the marketing machinery of his brand spending millions on advertising, you? Are on your own.

Not flattering, right? Being compared to a car salesman when you actually wanted to do music, but that is the reality of it.

You sell or you die (dramatically put).

Now I always giggle when I read that you need to develop “genuine” friendships like that wasn’t marketing. Look it up chapter 4 of book so and so. Like the marketing people didn’t figure that out, that people like to work with their friends. So how do you become their friend? How do you make them LIKE YOU. That is marketing right there.

I do hope that people don’t forget what a genuine friendship actually is, but it seems to me, people who really are into marketing (and successful) do.

Anyway the odds are stacked against you at this point with much, much more offer than demand so better embrace marketing as your new passion.


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## Markrs (Oct 24, 2021)

MarkusS said:


> Anyway the odds are stacked against you at this point with much, much more offer than demand so better embrace marketing as your new passion.


Yep, it is a tough market. Even with lots of marketing it is difficult. The key is you have to get out there and be visible. 

In essence my rather long winded point was that the issue isn't the lack of self promotion areas as no one listens to what is posted on the ones that do exist and the people that do listen are probably not the people you want to target.

If you want to make it in these types of industries you have to _*really*_ sell yourself, be very professional at it and work really hard doing it. Be persistent with it over the long term, then have a bit of luck or an opportunity come your way that you can fully utilise.


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## Henu (Oct 24, 2021)

The problem is that the market is SO saturated today. Everyone with a cracked FL studio and loops is offering their music for peanuts everywhere, and the next hobbyist tier is even more infested with people with Action Strings and Damage.





Everything sounds so ready ITB nowadays compared to 10-15 years ago that you don't need much skills at all to provide simple people the simple music they need for their simple purposes. 

I may sound a like a bitter old guy, but my point is that there are different tiers in the so-called "media music" industry- and choosing your own path surely helps you to stand out from the masses. 
Doing the same thing than everyone else is a 100% recipe for failure, even if you were better. Because even if you were, there's always someone doing it cheaper. Develop your own voice and you will be heard.


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## Sub3OneDay (Oct 24, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Email??!!?? You were lucky to have email.
> 
> When I were a gigging lad, we had to use the phone (A landline, at that!) and hand out flyers (Y'know...with our hands). We'd do this twenty-four hours a day[...]for fourpence every six years, and when we got home, our Dad would slice us in two with a bread knife.
> 
> But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't believe ya'


Ah yes - the endless flyer cutting - I remember trying to surreptitiously use the office guillotine to cut reams of paper printed on the office printer…


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## Henu (Oct 24, 2021)

Colin66 said:


> Personally I don't think it would be a bad thing if composers moved away from traditional orchestral music for film scores!


No thanks, I'm bored beyond death already with all these recent soundtracks made of "sampled Soviet metallic dildos recorded under the Siberian ice at the edge of silence and processed through old tube radios".


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## el-bo (Oct 24, 2021)

3DC said:


> You can make music with cracked DAW and all VST in the world but crap is still crap.


Doesn't matter if it's crap. The sheer amount of available music makes it harder for genuine talent to get heard. Some make it through, of course. But still...


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## chillbot (Oct 24, 2021)

MarkusS said:


> The other day I saw a post on there going like this: I just scored this so and so game, recorded it with this or that orchestra and got this or that award for it. I’m very in demand now, everyone wants to work with me, I’m at the top of my game BUT here is the thing.. I kind of feel empty, dissatisfied, what is going on? Does anyone know this feeling? Admin approved, 300 likes, now that’s how you do it, son.


Self-promotion AND a sick brag! That is high level stuff!


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## mediumaevum (Oct 24, 2021)

X-Bassist said:


> My advice is to think about starting a youtube channel. Find some simple stills that show the feel of the music, and lay 1 to 3 minutes of music on it. Make 2 or 3 of these a week, and see after a few months if you have some followers (nice, but not important - only 1 in 100,000 could hire you).


I have a youtube channel. This very same username. I've had it for over 10 years.

This is my latest video:


I also make CGI reconstructions and animations of castles, churches, abbeys and other medieval-stuff. I've worked together with a museum for historical accuracy etc. But at the moment, my channel is still below 1000 subscribers.


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## bbunker (Oct 24, 2021)

mediumaevum said:


> I have a youtube channel. This very same username. I've had it for over 10 years.
> 
> This is my latest video:
> 
> ...



So - are there any forums for aficionados of castles and other ruins? Medieval archivists? CGI reconstruction fans? Heck - Morris dancers, renaissance faires, local fetes, national trusts? Are you posting there, with a signature about what you do so that they can find it? Have you set up a soundcloud page with images of stills of reconstructions on it so that people who are browsing for audio?

Do you post regularly to your YouTube channel? The algorithms are...what they are, but ultimately it is a given that regular engagement with viewers increases subscriptions, so - since that seems to be a thing that you're into, why not try to push more in that area? How about simple, short videos that describe processes. AMA's about how you made videos. On-site videos where you talk about how you like a structure. What the content is doesn't really matter, as long as you're interested in it.

I'm going to press on a bit, so I hope the following doesn't offend, but: your YouTube descriptions are kind of terrible. The description on the last one says: "Stubber Priory was a Benedictine nunnery in the 13th century. Only a small vaulted cellar room remains of the convent ruin. Choral composition by mediumaevum (youtube channel)." Where is this nunnery? Why does it interest you? What's the relationship to the composition? What was the reason for the piece? What's the text? What's the significance of the text to you? What was the process? Why did you post it? What does it mean for the world, or what would you like it to mean? Who are you inspired by? What do you hope people take away from it? You don't need to write a thesis for every video you post, but if you want people to engage with your content more, it helps to try to engage more directly with the content itself.

For example, if you kept the same description, but then put in "There are a number of beautiful ruins around Denmark, and each one has a story to tell. Up next is Jarners Tower - Join me by Subscribing!" It's not great, I came up with it in about five seconds, but it at least lets people know what you're doing, what you're going to do, and why they should subscribe and care.

I think your reconstruction videos in particular could do with a wealth of description information. One can hardly imagine what goes into making the video. So DON'T MAKE THEM IMAGINE. In all seriousness, if I see a reconstruction video out of context, it's a very different experience from if I know what Museum was involved, or what materials you had access to, or woodcuttings, or anything. Help your viewer help you.


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## TonalDynamics (Oct 24, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Good topic. I don’t think it’s limited only to musicians; rather many industries and fields that have a competitive nature to it don’t tend to appreciate self promotion from others too much in my experience. This is particularly true if you don’t have something of value to offer another person.
> 
> So I think it’s wonderful that we have dedicated threads and groups now dedicated to self promotion to allow people to get their work out there. However, it’s become more important now than ever to attach your promotion with some element of value as well, whether that’s teaching, showing part of your process, or exchanging critique.
> 
> Lots of possibilities, but we need to stand out from the field nowadays if we want to really earn others’ respect and attract our ideal clients. Just some thoughts!


Good points about 'standing out' Chris, but ideally isn't the music itself supposed to be the actual 'value'? Not trying to be a jerk, I just think it's an interesting discussion about the current music 'meta'.

To be sure, all the 'extras' and supplemental material you can provide in a highly digestible format can be quite effective for attracting new eyes and building a community (particularly in the beginning), but I'd say if the 'bells and whistles' start to garner more of your attention than the actual material (which is happening all over the place these days), then there is almost certainly a real and tangible loss occurring there.

It's like current-era Hollywood - The marketing has become _so_ good, and the trailers are so awesome, that by the time you see the actual movie you're just disappointed (and yet they still have your money). Imagine if they put the same level of craft into the films as they did into the trailers 

To be clear, I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive; it's certainly possible to have a killer catalogue _and _a well-executed marketing strategy (on various scales), but rather to say the stronger the source material, the less of a need there is for gimmicks.

It's the 'Field of Dreams' philosophy, "If you build it, they will come" - and God help me, even call me a hopeless optimist, but after all these years I still believe that to be a fundamental truth with nearly every art-form (assuming there is at least SOME promotion involved and the artist doesn't toil in complete obscurity)

Granted this is a very 'meta' discussion and I'm speaking idealistically, but I think it's important for us to keep sight of our true roots as musicians.

I think part of this mindset is that we've been inured to the pain of having all our music be 'shared' *cough, euphemism* to the point that it's only 'value' is subjective, that we begin to devalue it subconsciously ourselves... a rather Jungian idea perhaps, but one that I believe has real merit and relevance.

Cheers!


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Oct 24, 2021)

TonalDynamics said:


> Good points about 'standing out' Chris, but ideally isn't the music itself supposed to be the actual 'value'? Not trying to be a jerk, I just think it's an interesting discussion about the current music 'meta'.
> 
> To be sure, all the 'extras' and supplemental material you can provide in a highly digestible format can be quite effective for attracting new eyes and building a community (particularly in the beginning), but I'd say if the 'bells and whistles' start to garner more of your attention than the actual material (which is happening all over the place these days), then there is almost certainly a real and tangible loss occurring there.
> 
> ...


Great points! I totally agree that the music is first and foremost what we're trying to market. The thing I've come to realize is, unfortunately to become discovered and recognized in the industry nowadays, we also need to be able to put ourselves out there and give people a reason to follow us or listen to our music. 

You can (and should!) have your music stand on its own, but imo it can't hurt to also have a degree of online presence as well by being consistent and sharing value wherever possible.

Thanks so much for chiming in!


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## MartinH. (Oct 24, 2021)

TonalDynamics said:


> but ideally isn't the music itself supposed to be the actual 'value'? Not trying to be a jerk, I just think it's an interesting discussion about the current music 'meta'.





TonalDynamics said:


> It's the 'Field of Dreams' philosophy, "If you build it, they will come" - and God help me, even call me a hopeless optimist, but after all these years I still believe that to be a fundamental truth with nearly every art-form (assuming there is at least SOME promotion involved and the artist doesn't toil in complete obscurity)



You sure are an optimist! I struggle with this sometimes, thinking that the things I create don't have value to "the public" and so I don't share them publicly. I usually just send them out to a couple friends who may find ... something ... in my work since they know me. 

I can empathize very well with that seemingly uncaring void of "the internet", since I myself don't value most music that is out there. E.g. among other genres I like black metal, but at the moment I only listen to Mgla and Kriegsmaschine in that genre. There is a youtube channel that posts a new black metal album almost once a day. Some of it probably is very good even. But I just don't care, I don't need an endless supply of new music, I like listening to things I know till I'm sick of them. Only then will I start looking for new music, unless it's a phase where I'm annoyed by music in general, those happen too. You can't "market" your way to my ear easily. 

So it's probably no surprise that my own black metal project is making zero progress since I don't feel like anyone even "needs" it. At some point I might feel like I need to make it happen for personal reasons, but that doesn't magically make others care about it. It would be just adding my own drop to the ocean. 


I'm sure water got a whole lot less meaningful too, when we stopped to have to go fetch it from a river or a well a mile away from our house.


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## Henu (Oct 24, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> There is a youtube channel that posts a new black metal album almost once a day.


Yep, indicating that the same problems exist also in that particular subgenre. New BM albums are popping out from left and right and the quality has dropped tremendously within the last ten years, usually being mediocre even at best.

The possibilities of affordable music software we've nowadays given, combined with instant and limitless platform to publish everything we do, was a blessing at first that has almost become a curse.

(Yes, old man is yelling at clouds again.)


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## davidanthony (Oct 24, 2021)

TonalDynamics said:


> Good points about 'standing out' Chris, but ideally isn't the music itself supposed to be the actual 'value'? Not trying to be a jerk, I just think it's an interesting discussion about the current music 'meta'.


Fully agree that should be the ideal.

The sad truth is that, for many, "music" offers less "value" (when value is defined as "thing that convinces other people to give you their money for you to conduct music related activities") than a bunch of other music-adjacent activities and offerings. 

The honest truth is, if you gave me two people, one with 10 years of marketing training and one with 10 years of musical training and asked me to bet on which one would be able to generate a stable income in the "music" space, I would bet on the marketer every time, regardless of the musician's level of skill or training.

Reason being, at the end of the day, people only care about how they feel after engaging with something, and people aren't engaging with music in the same ways today that they did a decade or two ago. 

For many people musical appreciation has gone from being an activity requiring time and investment to more of an afterthought (chart the work required from buying a piece of music at a record store to burning a CD-R to uploading to an iPod to streaming instantly). Couple that with the proliferation of screen and visual-content generating devices, and, on a daily basis, the average # of minutes of music listened to per day is probably less as a "standalone" and more as a visual accompaniment (background to a tv show, game, YouTube episode, etc.). 

All these fractures and changes mean it's less and less about music listening, and more and more about consuming music as part of a broader "experience." 

So with that comes new approaches to targeting this broader experience, e.g. why we now have people on music forums not talking about music but instead using words like "value" and "brand", inviting people to register emails for "free" advice, becoming teachers, reviewing products, etc.

Ironic to be sure, but the idea of being involved with the creation of music arguably resonates more broadly in today's cultural experience of appreciating music than actually listening to music does! So if you want a piece of that pie (which is a much larger pie than anything else out there, tbh), it's more about marketing "music" as part of an overall brand while exploiting proven strategies to get people to "engage" (and open their wallets) than it is anything else. 

(Note that I'm not knocking this approach in any way -- everyone has to make a living somehow and if people have found out how to do it in a way that's at least related to something they love, more power to 'em. You could not pay me to listen to the musical output of most of the top YouTube "musicians", though.)


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## Sub3OneDay (Oct 24, 2021)

mediumaevum said:


> I have a youtube channel. This very same username. I've had it for over 10 years.
> 
> This is my latest video:
> 
> ...



An example of shameless self promotion there… 😉


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## thesteelydane (Oct 24, 2021)

mediumaevum said:


> So, -HOW- am I expected to promote my works of art/music? HOW am I expected to make people notice my works? If I can't post it anywhere and say "Hi, I exists!", how am I ever going to make other people recommend me or my works?
> 
> If you're forced to be invisible on social media, how are you supposed to promote your art?


I hate to be blunt, but you need to be excellent. When you create something excellent, you don't need to promote yourself, people WILL find you. I haven't read the whole thread but the other thing that came to mind is that if you're into creating music for the sake of having fans, you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Fix your why, and everything will fall into place.


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## MarkusS (Oct 24, 2021)

thesteelydane said:


> When you create something excellent, you don't need to promote yourself, people WILL find you.


You should tell that to the big movie studios, they are wasting tenths of millions on marketing on each of their films! But then again, maybe their content isn’t excellent enough for people to find it..

Seriously, we’d all love to believe it’s enough to be excellent to make a great career but unfortunately it’s not enough, at least not in the entertainment business and especially not in music. If your experience is different and you put out an excellent music composition on YouTube or somewhere and made a career from it without any marketing then you are one of the very lucky few. For most of us this will not work.


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## Thomas Kallweit (Oct 24, 2021)

Excellent may be in the eye of the individual mind. But may it be excellent I also guess this could vanish through those tons of music everywhere easily. And will mostly.
Therefore many who mentioned the importance of self-marketing have a point. 
Though it could mean to have 50% of the powers going into this half.


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## rgames (Oct 24, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> I totally agree that the music is first and foremost what we're trying to market.


The problem with that is that it rarely works. At least not on a large enough scale to make a decent living.

Sell the brand, not the music.




thesteelydane said:


> When you create something excellent, you don't need to promote yourself


That's clearly not true as evidenced by two basic facts:

1. There are people whom I judge to be as "excellent" as others who have a huge following but have only a tiny following or no following at all.

2. There is no consensus defintion of "excellent" in music.

rgames


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## rgames (Oct 24, 2021)

Some of my experience with YouTube/Soundcloud:

1. Decide VERY EARLY what you want the channel to be about. If it's a gear porn channel, then understand that it'll be really tough to use the same channel/brand to promote your music. The audience for gear porn and the audience for music are very different. It's WAY easier to grow a gear porn channel than a music channel so if your goal is to promote your music then avoid the easy win with gear porn.

2. I get 100x - 1000x more plays on YouTube than on Soundcloud. So I pretty much quit using Soundcloud. I think its value is extremely genre-dependent.

3. You can use AdWords to promote your music on YT and it can be very effective for relatively little money ($50/month). However, an ad-driven fan base will grow much more slowly than one driven by links from other music-related websites/channels/blogs/etc. so try to get links there. You'll also get a lot more thumbs-down and negative comments when people are driven to your videos with ads because, well, ads are annoying. But you'll also pick up subs and find people who actually like what you're doing. So it's still worthwhile.

rgames


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## TonalDynamics (Oct 24, 2021)

rgames said:


> 1. Decide VERY EARLY what you want the channel to be about. If it's a gear porn channel, then understand that it'll be really tough to use the same channel/brand to promote your music. The audience for gear porn and the audience for music are very different. It's WAY easier to grow a gear porn channel than a music channel so if your goal is to promote your music then avoid the easy win with gear porn.
> 
> 
> rgames


This right here is more what I'm trying to get across:

Not that you don't need good marketing or self-promotion, but that supplemental offerings on a 'music' channel can actually make your own music take a backseat to the teaching, analysis, reviews, or whatever you have on offer.

So like you say, clear direction is necessary with what you are aiming to achieve on said channel or platform. Specialization is quite clearly the proper path forward.

Just don't be surprised if you start spending less time on your craft (doing what you truly love) if you specialize too heavily in the 'music adjacent' activities (as another user called it) on your channel.

It's just so damned easy to get side-tracked and bogged down in all this shit - truly, to the point where you drown in it, and from where I'm sitting it's an epidemic among creative folks particularly online or in some solo or independent operation.

It's just another good ol' fashioned causality paradox:

Are we forced to focus more on 'music-adjacent' activites because people care less about music, or do people care less about music because we're more focused on 'music-adjacent' activities?

Perhaps there's no concrete answer. Sometimes just thinking about the question is more important.

Cheers


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## Tice (Oct 24, 2021)

I used to think it was all about promoting your work. I still think there is a path there, but it's a path that requires an extreme amount of luck. I've come to believe it's far more reliable to, rather than promote your work, work on the self. By that I mean that people who will work with you work with the person, not the music. And that person is expressed outside of the music.
Places like this are places where fellow composers go. The fans don't see what you promote here. Nor do non-composer employers. But if a fellow composer likes the way you conduct yourself (excuse the pun), they might develop a friendship, which also opens doors. Maybe they like the way you think, or the way you do public discourse, but it likely won't be your music they respond to, if they even listen to it.
Seen through that lense, you're ALWAYS doing self-promotion. But we need to take the term a bit more literally.


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## TonalDynamics (Oct 24, 2021)

Tice said:


> I used to think it was all about promoting your work. I still think there is a path there, but it's a path that requires an extreme amount of luck. I've come to believe it's far more reliable to, rather than promote your work, work on the self. By that I mean that people who will work with you work with the person, not the music. And that person is expressed outside of the music.
> Places like this are places where fellow composers go. The fans don't see what you promote here. Nor do non-composer employers. But if a fellow composer likes the way you conduct yourself (excuse the pun), they might develop a friendship, which also opens doors. Maybe they like the way you think, or the way you do public discourse, but it likely won't be your music they respond to, if they even listen to it.
> Seen through that lense, you're ALWAYS doing self-promotion. But we need to take the term a bit more literally.


This is such a good take honestly.

Working on forming healthy relationships with people who can help you go places is almost always a good thing


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## Tice (Oct 24, 2021)

TonalDynamics said:


> This is such a good take honestly.
> 
> Working on forming healthy relationships with people who can help you go places is almost always a good thing


Not just so they can help you though. You can't 'fake' this kind of thing. You have to mean it.


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## antames (Oct 24, 2021)

I like stumbling on artists unintentionally, which usually involves me searching for a particular song I heard on the radio, from a movie or TV series, or in a video game; or, searching for a particular genre on YouTube or Spotify, liking a song I hear, and researching who the artist is. I haven't ever found someone through their self-promotion, and I think others are the same. You discover artists from songs you like, and find other similar artists, and one thing leads to another and it naturally grows from there. There's no pressure in that process, whereas there's a sense of pressure when someone promotes their material to you and suddenly you feel obliged to listen to it, which ironically can have the opposite effect of putting people off. There's no harm in sharing tracks you have made on websites like these as long as they're in the right forum. Make sure you also have a body of work you can show off to potential clients so they know what you're about and what to expect.


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## TonalDynamics (Oct 24, 2021)

Tice said:


> Not just so they can help you though. You can't 'fake' this kind of thing. You have to mean it.


Exactly.

Every industry is full of brown-nosers honestly, but you can spot (smell?) them in a New York minute.

💩  💩 

😤 🤢 🤮


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## TonalDynamics (Oct 24, 2021)

antames said:


> I like stumbling on artists unintentionally, which usually involves me searching for a particular song I heard on the radio, from a movie or TV series, or in a video game; or, searching for a particular genre on YouTube or Spotify, liking a song I hear, and researching who the artist is. I haven't ever found someone through their self-promotion, and I think others are the same. You discover artists from songs you like, and find other similar artists, and one thing leads to another and it naturally grows from there. There's no pressure in that process, whereas there's a sense of pressure when someone promotes their material to you and suddenly you feel obliged to listen to it, which ironically can have the opposite effect of putting people off. There's no harm in sharing tracks you have made on websites like these as long as they're in the right forum. Make sure you also have a body of work you can show off to potential clients so they know what you're about and what to expect.


Exactly, which is why doing a _proper_ cover or a variation on a popular tune is a GREAT way to generate attention!

It doesn't have to be top 40 💩 either, film OST tracks and video game music is also highly sought after by many a youtuber.

There's even a big market still for song parodies these days, incidentally.

I think Weird Al would have still 'made it' with a YT channel today if he were coming up now and had decent production quality.

For newcomers who really are committed, and serious about getting exposure for original work on their channel/s this really can't be stressed enough, try it out


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Oct 24, 2021)

Not sure if this is the exception or the rule, but I have a career as a film composer because a director's fiancée discovered these two videos while surfing around social media.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 24, 2021)

Peter Williams said:


> The internet is the neo-Tower of Babel. We are living in a time of highly specialized skills and interests. It is very difficult to generate interest in art-music in whatever form, especially if it breaks with convention. I've tried to create a kind of poly-stylistic music that embraces the past, the present as well as current technology. Some like it, but others not so much, which I understand. Specialized persons often have very specialized interests in music, so my stuff can probably seem heretical and flippant to some. I am grateful for this forum, as I learn things that I would otherwise have very little exposure to. I'm not too interested in doing film or game music, but I very much respect the skill and effort involved with that craft and I do learn useful things from others' experiences with it. I'm 73 years old, been playing music since I was seven, and I'm now mostly content to save my work on decent quality cds and other media. I do use Soundcrowd and Farcebook, but to very little effect. You can't even find me on Soundcrowd unless you include my middle initial (B.), as Peter Williams is a common name.
> 
> P.S. I thought that the music business changed radically when music videos became popular in the '80s, because the musical artistry became compromised by the visual artistry, although occasionally the sum was greater than the parts. In general though, what you looked like became more important than what you sounded like.


"Video Killed the Radio Star" was appropriately the first music video aired on MTV.


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## TonalDynamics (Oct 24, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Not sure if this is the exception or the rule, but I have a career as a film composer because a director's fiancée discovered these two videos while surfing around social media.



Excellent, Stephen.

You pretty much did what I'm arguing for, which is putting yourself 'out there' on the basis of your musicianship (and/or writing), rather than getting sidetracked with the 'extra-curricular' stuff.

Being such an excellent pianist your playing speaks for itself, but I think most of us can benefit from this same approach.

Cheers!

P.S. Also HOLY SHIT that coffee house crowd was rough, not even one person applauds after you SLAYED that Rachmaninoff?! 🤦‍♂️


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Oct 24, 2021)

TonalDynamics said:


> P.S. Also HOLY SHIT that coffee house crowd was rough, not even one person applauds after you SLAYED that Rachmaninoff?! 🤦‍♂️


Well, you know how these Youtuber types are... they always stop clapping after the 4th take. 😅


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## TonalDynamics (Oct 24, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Well, you know how these Youtuber types are... they always stop clapping after the 4th take. 😅


You're a nobler man than I.

I would've added my own clap track (just to show 'em)

Forget 'pretentious jazz snobs', these pretentious 'content-creators' are the worst!

😤


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## MarkusS (Oct 25, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Not sure if this is the exception or the rule, but I have a career as a film composer because a director's fiancée discovered these two videos while surfing around social media.



The exception and it’s kind of ironical because none of these videos are actually original compositions by you. Kind of proves the randomness of it all, but you do have good looking friends! (And you killed it with the fox part!)


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## thesteelydane (Oct 25, 2021)

rgames said:


> The problem with that is that it rarely works. At least not on a large enough scale to make a decent living.
> 
> Sell the brand, not the music.
> 
> ...


Fair points. I guess it depends on what your end goal is - sell records to the public, get TV placements or get hired as a film composer. I come from a performing background, where “all” I had to do to get the job was to play better than the other guys and be nice to work with, so I’m still stuck in that mentality as a composer.


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## el-bo (Oct 25, 2021)

3DC said:


> What people fail to understand, and I was one of them for many years unfortunately, is that success is extremely precise science.


Actually, it isn't. And certainly not when it comes to art. One could have all the talent or the best product in the world, backed by the marketing, but it won't amount to a hill of beans if nobody likes what's being sold 

And anyone who tells you there is an exact formula, unfailing against all known and unknown confounders, then they are just pitching higher than most of their audiences level of discernment.

Can the chips be somewhat stacked in one's favour? Yes. Are there steps that can be taken that get people past the first gusts of resistive wind? Sure. But anyone that doesn't account for a certain amount of uncontrollable variables i.e customer interest...oh, and, in most cases, a good dose of luck, is perhaps not fully prepared.


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## Henu (Oct 25, 2021)

3DC said:


> The only thing standing between you and your goal is the bullshit story you keep telling yourself as to why you can't achieve it.


It's not "always you". If things were only this simple, everyone would be a walking success story and there would be no sickness nor poverty in the world.
The abovementioned quote is just a different side of the coin of that same bullshit this guy is preaching against. Just like it's easy to blame own laziness and unsuccess on other factors, it's also piss-easy to shout "advices" from that ivory tower.

Especially if you're someone like Mr. Belfort who by a quick Google search, seems to be sitting in this particular tower as a someone who's pretty much succeeded on the expense of others.

Anyway, back to practicing my skills.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 25, 2021)

This is of course always true: apart from <INSERT ALL EXTERNAL FACTORS YOU DON’T CONTROL> it’s all about you. A pretty popular post-modern overly optimistic way of thinking. And -logically- true. So basically, -APART FROM THERE POSSIBLY EXISTING FACTORS WE DO NOT HAVE ANY CONTROL OVER WHICH WE SHAN’T CALL DESTINY OR BAD LUCK - we’re pretty much in control of and hence responsible for everything that happens to us.


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## el-bo (Oct 25, 2021)

3DC said:


> You need to understand some facts:


You need to calm down



3DC said:


> 1. Success is accomplishment of an aim or purpose - usually a goal.


Yes...By definition 



3DC said:


> 2. Art is product based on human creative skill.


Yup!



3DC said:


> 3. Skill is the ability to do something well.


Yup!



3DC said:


> 3. Luck is faith or trust in a concept - not fact.


No! Luck is an unaccounted for and fortuitous event or series of events. By very definition you can't trust or have faith in it. But that doesn't mean that in many cases it's not the glue that brings all the other pieces of the puzzle (Those that one can work to control) together. It also doesn't mean that luck, in and of itself, can't propel even those of little talent, and who have made zero effort, towards success.



3DC said:


> Once you exclude all external factors I mentioned in my previous comment its all up to you.


Excluding all external factors is tantamount to accounting for bad luck, which seems odd for someone who doesn't believe in luck.



3DC said:


> Nothing to do with God.


Indeed! That would be impossible 



3DC said:


> One of my favorite quotes ever:
> 
> The only thing standing between you and your goal is the bullshit story you keep telling yourself as to why you can't achieve it.
> ― Jordan Belfort


You started the post talking about facts, but end it with lame and fanciful platitudes.


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## Tice (Oct 25, 2021)

Just a little interjection on luck from me:
Luck can't be controlled, but it can be prepared for! Unforseen chances can't be planned, but the outcome is determined by being ready for it when they do happen. And sometimes taking an opportunity before you're ready can do more harm than good, both for you and the person taking a chance on you. Knowing when you're ready for an opportunity, and being at peace with not using an opportunity when you're not ready, is a show of respect for yourself as well as for the other people involved. If you bite off more than you can chew, everyone involved is in that boat with you because it's all collaborative. Know thyself!


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## el-bo (Oct 25, 2021)

Tice said:


> Luck can't be controlled, but it can be prepared for! Unforseen chances can't be planned, but the outcome is determined by being ready for it when they do happen.


Knowing the part luck (good or bad) plays is a good start. And if one leaves a wide-enough berth, shored with a certain amount of contingency planning, it can certainly help. But as I said earlier, unforeseen is unforeseen. One only has to look at the events of the last couple of years, to see how many previously or potentially successful careers/businesses and lives were destroyed to acknowledge that there really is no accounting for the unaccountable :(


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## AudioLoco (Oct 25, 2021)

3DC said:


> What people fail to understand, and I was one of them for many years unfortunately, is that success is extremely precise science. Not some divine intervention, luck or magic thing. You have to learn about it, plan it and execute that plan to perfection.
> 
> Sure you have to consider few external factors that can affect ones success journey like home environment, personal health, place of birth, political system and educational resources but after that its only you and no one else.
> 
> ...


This is sounding like one of those self believe courses, "build confidence and self esteem and you will win in life!", "it's all about you!", "the art of winning", "enlarge your penis!", "the art of the deal"...


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## el-bo (Oct 25, 2021)

3DC said:


> @doctoremmet and @el-bo sorry for my "to your face" English. Good intent but very bad and short vocabulary. Peace and good luck to to you all.


Thanks! Should've perhaps accounted for that...and certainly should've accounted for my current short-fuse (Not an excuse, but dealing Twitter and Youtube nonsense did quite a number on me, today  ).

I'm not mocking self-improvement/success/hustle methodology. And certainly, if you've managed to use any of these strategies to your own personal success, then I'm very happy for you. But even then, I think it's a good thing to approach things like this with a certain level of detachment (Not necessarily doubt) to remain more objective.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Oct 25, 2021)

MarkusS said:


> The exception and it’s kind of ironical because none of these videos are actually original compositions by you. Kind of proves the randomness of it all, but you do have good looking friends! (And you killed it with the fox part!)


Well, I still had to audition by scoring a scene and win my first 3 features. 😄 ...but this afforded me the opportunity to do so.

Paraphrasing something heard today: A lot of people who want to score movies get caught up in status games, which is the wrong game to be playing. (Who did you ghostwrite for, where did you intern, what does your studio look like, which samples are you using, do you live in LA, etc.)

The way to escape competition and get noticed is to be authentic. If you are composing music that is just an extension of yourself, nobody can compete with you.

This is how mediocre musical talents break through.


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## el-bo (Oct 25, 2021)

3DC said:


> I might never get to the level of success I want


You mean you haven't already? And why wouldn't you, if it's merely a case of following the steps?

I'm all for 'fake it till you make it', but I think it can be problematic if you talk about it with such assuredness (Nothing wrong with being optimistic about the potential of something, of course) and conviction as though you've already proven it within your own life, especially if it leads you to dismissing very solid arguments that contradict your entire position. 

As i said earlier, that's why it's good to remain objective. Otherwise you just come off as a zealot, and ironically become someone ill-equipped to inspire others to success


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## thesteelydane (Oct 25, 2021)

On the subject of luck, can I just interject with this pointless but hopefully amusing anecdote: Where I live (Hanoi, Vietnam) believing in luck is very much part of the culture and thinking, to the point where people admire rich people for their luck, not their hard work (or lets be honest in some cases undetected crime). Every week everyone burns vast amounts of fake money outside their house in the belief it will bring them prosperity. The more fake money you burn, the richer you will be - some day....I once got into a whole boatload of trouble with my ex when I pointed out that everyone was burning fake money and everyone was poor.


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## MartinH. (Oct 25, 2021)

thesteelydane said:


> On the subject of luck, can I just interject with this pointless but hopefully amusing anecdote: Where I live (Hanoi, Vietnam) believing in luck is very much part of the culture and thinking, to the point where people admire rich people for their luck, not their hard work (or lets be honest in some cases undetected crime). Every week everyone burns vast amounts of fake money outside their house in the belief it will bring them prosperity. The more fake money you burn, the richer you will be - some day....I once got into a whole boatload of trouble with my ex when I pointed out that everyone was burning fake money and everyone was poor.



I bet the guy who owns the fake-money selling business is making a killing though.


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## ka00 (Oct 25, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> I bet the guy who owns the fake-money selling business is making a killing though.


Because has a Monopoly on it.


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## TonalDynamics (Oct 25, 2021)

thesteelydane said:


> On the subject of luck, can I just interject with this pointless but hopefully amusing anecdote: Where I live (Hanoi, Vietnam) believing in luck is very much part of the culture and thinking, to the point where people admire rich people for their luck, not their hard work (or lets be honest in some cases undetected crime). Every week everyone burns vast amounts of fake money outside their house in the belief it will bring them prosperity. The more fake money you burn, the richer you will be - some day....I once got into a whole boatload of trouble with my ex when I pointed out that everyone was burning fake money and everyone was poor.


While I respect their sovereign right to have their own beliefs, I think that's a genuinely terrible philosophy.

But when you live in a nation that's literally been pumped to the gills with Soviet-era communism, it makes perfect since that 'hard work' has never been highlighted as the critical path to success.

Although the superstition of 'luck' and beliefs surrounding it seem to permeate a good majority of Asian cultures.

We're certainly blessed in the West relative to many places in the world in the sense that we have the opportunity to sell our wares based on their own merit, and to pursue a path of self-employment in the first place, although the greater hope is that the online era will make those national barriers less imposing with strictly digital methods of distribution and finance, such as Direct-to-Fan and Crypto. 

But at the end of the day, if those people aren't able to access a bank of some sort in their own community, as a means of _withdrawing_ a national currency after trading said crypto, or their D2F/Social channel profits in general, their only real option still unfortunately is to expatriate.

Still early days in the digital finance world, and we have a lot to figure out


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## thesteelydane (Oct 25, 2021)

TonalDynamics said:


> While I respect their sovereign right to have their own beliefs, I think that's a genuinely terrible philosophy.
> 
> But when you live in a nation that's literally been pumped to the gills with Soviet-era communism, it makes perfect since that 'hard work' has never been highlighted as the critical path to success.
> 
> Although the superstition of 'luck' and beliefs surrounding it seem to permeate a good majority of Asian cultures.


Oh I agree. Though I will say that this is one of the most capitalistic places I've ever lived. Many people do work hard and become successful, it's just that because of the corruption, red tape and the fact that you need connections and a bit of cash to get started, most poor people don't have a fighting chance.

We're getting a little off track here, though...


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## Robin Thompson (Oct 25, 2021)

Tice said:


> Not just so they can help you though. You can't 'fake' this kind of thing. You have to mean it.


The most important thing is sincerity. Once you can fake that, you've got it made.


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## TonalDynamics (Oct 25, 2021)

thesteelydane said:


> Oh I agree. Though I will say that this is one of the most capitalistic places I've ever lived. Many people do work hard and become successful, it's just that because of the corruption, red tape and the fact that you need connections and a bit of cash to get started, most poor people don't have a fighting chance.
> 
> We're getting a little off track here, though...


Well this topic is about self-promotion, and I see modernized D2F/Decentralized payment systems as being a critical aspect of the game, particularly with artists in emerging/impoverished (or even corrupt, as you say) nations.

But Vietnam is... a fascinating enigma, to say the least.

What with its border conflicts, its general disdain for Laotians and the policy divide between North and South only seeming to widen over the years.

You actually inspired me to watch a brief video on the region's recent history and I'm just as confused as before I watched it about what exactly is going on over there.

Out of curiousity what is it that's keeping you in Hanoi as opposed to setting up shop in Saigon?

Cheers


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## thesteelydane (Oct 27, 2021)

TonalDynamics said:


> Well this topic is about self-promotion, and I see modernized D2F/Decentralized payment systems as being a critical aspect of the game, particularly with artists in emerging/impoverished (or even corrupt, as you say) nations.
> 
> But Vietnam is... a fascinating enigma, to say the least.
> 
> ...


Nothing’s keeping me here, I just like it here. Saigon is too commercialized and western for me. If I ever leave Hanoi it will be to live in the countryside somewhere in the middle of the country. In 9 years I have never heard any Vietnamese speak bad about Laotians - China and Chinese on the other hand, that hatred runs deep.

I don’t think there’s anything going on, apart from it being one of the last communist countries in the world (on paper, that is). The country is unified, has one of the fastest growing economies in the world and is rapidly developing. To be honest 99% of Vietnamese are completely apathetic when it comes to politics.

And now we have definitely gone off topic...


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## MarkusS (Oct 27, 2021)

Funny how this thread went from self-promotion to living in the countryside in Vietnam..


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## TonalDynamics (Oct 27, 2021)

MarkusS said:


> Funny how this thread went from self-promotion to living in the countryside in Vietnam..


Those people living in the Vietnam countryside are _sorely_ underrepresented.

Probably because they don't self-promote.

See how it all ties together in the end?


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## thesteelydane (Oct 27, 2021)

MarkusS said:


> Funny how this thread went from self-promotion to living in the countryside in Vietnam..


We could have ended up in far worse places. But yeah...it was a tangent. Back to the topic!


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## Tice (Oct 30, 2021)

Btw, (and sorry for digging up an older conversation) there is another reason to be posting your work online other than self-promotion: It's simply fun to talk with like-minded people about your and their creative endeavors and tastes. I mean, this is a forum full of composers. Why not share your work and connect with people who have something in common with you? It doesn't always mean the person doing the sharing is just looking to better their career.


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## TonalDynamics (Oct 30, 2021)

Tice said:


> Btw, (and sorry for digging up an older conversation) there is another reason to be posting your work online other than self-promotion: It's simply fun to talk with like-minded people about your and their creative endeavors and tastes. I mean, this is a forum full of composers. Why not share your work and connect with people who have something in common with you? It doesn't always mean the person doing the sharing is just looking to better their career.


Not always, but I think it's a pretty common theme since getting a 'job' in this industry is so damn hard atm.

(I mean it always was hard, now there's just less avenues for consistent revenue than there were before)


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## stargazer (Oct 31, 2021)

mediumaevum said:


> I have a youtube channel. This very same username. I've had it for over 10 years.
> 
> This is my latest video:
> 
> ...



Beautiful! And the best use of Silka? I’ve heard, so far!


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## BVMusic (Aug 3, 2022)

A question: Did Facebook help you get your music noticed either from your profile or page> And for those who do not want to use or have Facebook what is the alternative? Soundcloud seems so different nowadays. I remember the times when you could post in groups there and be very helpful. But things has changed! Not to mention the royalties per stream on streaming platforms starting with zero point zero etc .. I wonder how royalties work for movies and TV series on Apple, Netflix etc .. Oh and finally I like the community and forum here.


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## T-LeffoH (Aug 5, 2022)

BVMusic said:


> A question: Did Facebook help you get your music noticed either from your profile or page> And for those who do not want to use or have Facebook what is the alternative? Soundcloud seems so different nowadays.


This thread is a bit misaligned from the start given the vagueness of the OP's original post, clearly not understanding what promotion is and OP comments about limitations in posting links to works are nonsensical and false...Facebook, Twitter, many other mediums allow links, there is absolutely no shortage of places to spam the internet with information via hyperlink.

Besides all of this...self-promotion in a B2B ecosystem also does not generally involve the same machinations seen in B2C ecosystems.

For frame of reference, not a single one of the working relationships I have developed for composing is based on anything other than in-person networking, email communications and shared drive file transfers.


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## BVMusic (Aug 5, 2022)

T-LeffoH said:


> This thread is a bit misaligned from the start given the vagueness of the OP's original post, clearly not understanding what promotion is and OP comments about limitations in posting links to works are nonsensical and false...Facebook, Twitter, many other mediums allow links, there is absolutely no shortage of places to spam the internet with information via hyperlink.
> 
> Besides all of this...self-promotion in a B2B ecosystem also does not generally involve the same machinations seen in B2C ecosystems.
> 
> For frame of reference, not a single one of the working relationships I have developed for composing is based on anything other than in-person networking, email communications and shared drive file transfers.


From my past experience though, Myspace and Facebook helped to collaborate with other artists and receiving invites to have my music remixed. All this thanks from my netwerking from Myspace and facebook and soundcloud. And yes we ended up sending each other music files so we can can work on them. And alot of awareness to my music stemmed from these sites as well. . But I think some of these sites today changed and so I do not know today.


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## T-LeffoH (Aug 5, 2022)

BVMusic said:


> From my past experience though, Myspace and Facebook helped to collaborate with other artists and receiving invites to have my music remixed. All this thanks from my netwerking from Myspace and facebook and soundcloud. And yes we ended up sending each other music files so we can can work on them. And alot of awareness to my music stemmed from these sites as well. . But I think some of these sites today changed and so I do not know today.


If that is your end goal, then having your music available on similar sites may open up more opportunity to interact with others, tho that ecosystem is also the wild west of rights management.

My main point was simply that this entire thread is based on broad, false assumptions by OP since self-promotion is no different than any other marketing - it requires a strategy for the business a composer is looking to generate or it just becomes another immeasurable activity.


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## mediumaevum (Aug 5, 2022)

T-LeffoH said:


> My main point was simply that this entire thread is based on broad, false assumptions by OP since self-promotion is no different than any other marketing - it requires a strategy for the business a composer is looking to generate or it just becomes another immeasurable activity.


Since I moved on to posting my stuff on Facebook, things went a lot more smoothly.


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## T-LeffoH (Aug 5, 2022)

mediumaevum said:


> Since I moved on to posting my stuff on Facebook, things went a lot more smoothly.
> But it doesn't mean my assumptions are false. The problem on facebook is the same as everywhere else:
> 
> *There are virtually no groups on Facebook for musicians where they are allowed to post their own musical works.*


These *assumptions* are false.



mediumaevum said:


> *It seems like VI is the only place on the entire internet that allows musicians to link to their own works.*
> 
> In other words: *There are far too few places where musicians are allowed to promote their own works or themselves.
> 
> Why is self-promotion so bad, and if self-promotion really is so bad, how are new musicians ever supposed to be allowed a chance to get heard, if they have no place to publish their music and have people talk about them?*


There are infinite opportunities for self-promotion and there is no one-size-fits-all, people simply need to get creative.


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## Galbaniél (Oct 28, 2022)

Late to the party but would like to chime in nontheless.

I sympathize with your frustration somewhat. This year I posted some of my songs (new and old) to youtube and distributed through Distrokid and the only "promotion" I ever did was to post my youtube links on my personal facebook with a couple of hundred friends, which resulted in likes from my mom and my sister, along with one occational comment now and then. Despite this my monthly listeners on Spotify grew every day up until it plateaued at 15k about a month ago and aggressively decreased after. Now it's probably down to single digits. The only reason for this was that Spotify had some of my tracks on their algorithmic playlists a little while.

I still don't know how and why they were selected for the algorithm, but I did learn that the algorithm is very powerful. I assume the same applies to other platforms, like Youtube e.g.

This made me do some research about promotion and learned about playlist pitching etc. I pitched to some user playlists that didn't require me to pay, resulting in one track added to one playlist, I don't think I've gotten a single play from that.

Youtube (and internet as a whole) has great resources about music promotion, but I find the VAST majority is aimed towards bands and aspiring pop stars. A lot of talk about social media presence, image, live gigs and such. I don't want to be a "brand", I would prefer to not even have my face associated with my music. All I'm concerned with is that the people who would enjoy my music could easily find it.

As for your complaint about Facebook groups, as people have pointed out, a lot of them want to inspire discussion and sharing knowlege in a particular field and don't want to be cluttered with self promotions. Also, have you actually looked at the groups that allow or encourage it? It's filled to the brink with posts with virtually no engagements from anyone. Mostly for the reason that people post the song they want to "promote" and then bounce. No one is interested in listening to the other contributors and most potential fans are generally not a members of those groups. I found the same results on sites like Reddit etc.

Before I went on my promotion research-binge, I also posted a link on this very forum, although not for the reasons of gaining listeners but for feedback to progress my craft. There is A LOT of people here with a wealth of knowledge. I didn't recieve any comments then either (not a diss towards this forum or any of it's members, I myself didn't listen and give feeback to other posts, so I'm just as guilty as anyone). If you're primarily looking to spread your music to fans I don't think this forum should be your main focus.

One tip I picked up was to do collaborations with others, for a chance to pick up some of their fans, but this could be hard if you've got no established connection to work with. In that case this forum (and others) could be a good starting point.

Also, covers of famous song could give your works great spread, but therein lies problems with permissions and costs. Besides, often when I see a Youtube channel with lots of popular and well recieved covers their occational original works usually recieves a tiny fraction of the same engagement. Generally, most people are there for the fun covers, not originals.

Another angle is doing related videos on Youtube, like tips and tutorials for mixing/orchestration/composing etc. But you risk running in to the same problem as above. If you're doing good tutorials and gain traction, then that's what people will be there for. I'm as guilty as anyone in that regard. If I follow a channel based on their sample walkthroughs/reviews, I tend to spend very little time diving into their original music.

Most of these hurdles dissappear however, if I'm primarily a fan of their music first. In that case I LOVE to watch anything they present about the process. The problem is to get people to first notice your music.

So, all in all, it's not an easy beat to dance to and I get your frustration. My best tip, by far, would be to try to "hack" the algorithms of varios platforms, but I have no good idea of how to do it.
I think I could do better on Youtube by video tagging (I do none of that) and adding descriptions describing the "point" and thought process of the pieces I upload. Most friends I explain that to really enjoy that and it often gives them a whole new level of appreciation of the music, but I believe it wouldn't have the same (maybe even opposite) effect on a stranger reading it on the internet. Besides, I'm the kind of dude who wants the listener to figure it out on their own.

Finally, watch out for scams, there are a lot of them. E.g. Don't pay some random dude to listen to your track with the promise that, if he likes it, he'll write about it in his blog or add it to his playlist. Check if anyone reads his blog or listen to his playlist, and don't pay him for merely listening. After he gets his money he has no incentive to feature you. Good marketing cost money, yes, but make sure they actually can deliver results.
And bevare of bots and bought "likes". It may look good on your socials (for a while) but most platforms see through that and can take actions against you.

TL;DR: Work the algorithms, do collaborations, do covers, present related content. None of them are easy and sure to bring any results, but they are more likely to work than posting in Facebook groups.


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