# For you germans: Please sign this petition to prevent banning of action games in germany!!!



## Waywyn (Jul 10, 2009)

Hey all,

for our germans here or everyone who could manage to register and sign here, please do it:

https://epetitionen.bundestag.de/index. ... ition=4958

Our neat little stupid "oh so over correct" country is deciding to ban actiongames from the german market!!!


Cheers,

Alex


PS: Sorry Leo to lend out your triple mark special move :D


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## Simon Ravn (Jul 10, 2009)

Ha ha, unbelievable. It's bad enough that games with Nazi material has been banned there since forever. I remember that Amiga games like Rocketeer and the Indiana Jones games never made it to Germany because of that ban. I also believe that all the Wolfenstein games are banned there? Well.. that's one thing but banning first person shooters or whatever the criteria is entirely is just lame. But I guess you could just order online from abroad What's next - action movies?


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## Jaap (Jul 10, 2009)

Registered and after 5 "fehlers" I managed to sign the petition (site is very slow)


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## Ranietz (Jul 10, 2009)

So in Germany you can watch hardcore porn but not play an actiongame on your Playstation??? ~o)


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## Waywyn (Jul 10, 2009)

Hey guys,

thanks so far ...

@Simon: Hey dude, good to hear from you. Yeh it's actually weird. They remove svatikas of all the games ... I don't get it ... maybe they don't understand that you play AGAINST Nazis in e.g. Wolfenstein (which was not banned afaik, they just removed Hitlers coorparate identity logo :D

@Ranietz: well, actually you are still allowed to, but they now started to forbid action and ego shooters in general. They call it "killer games" ... go figure.
Reason was quite a few amok runs here in germany during the last years ... and here and there they found ego shooters on the guys computers (go figure again, how many guys play ego shooters ... uhm .. almost 75% of all players?)

You know it is easiert to forbid stuff rather than education.

What I also don't understand .. all games which seem critical already have the 18+ badge on there ... the same goes for movies etc.
I really ask myself why they want to tell ME, a 34 year old guy what to do or not.


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## Angel (Jul 10, 2009)

you can play porn and watch actiongames... yes


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## Ranietz (Jul 10, 2009)

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games, Wolfenstein 3D was/is banned in Germany.

And what is "ego shooters"?


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## Angel (Jul 10, 2009)

first person shooters = ego shooters (in Germany)
cell phone = handy (in Germany)
Mitsubishi Wanker = Mitsubishi Pajero (in Germany)


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## Ranietz (Jul 10, 2009)

It's called Mitsubishi Pajero in Norway too. Strange... :lol:


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## TheoKrueger (Jul 10, 2009)

If you think that's bad, you gotta read this part in wikipedia: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ba ... mes#Greece

All games banned in public places!! That meant no coin-ops at all in Greece at the time 

In Greece, in some of the places that had video games, some of the coin-op machines had a remote control switch that would change the screen from Pac-Man to some gambling fruity game for example, that's why I think they mostly voted for this law. Some internet cafe owners were sued, and technically, even playing a video game on your game-boy or mobile phone was illegal. Though i never think they ever sued anyone for that sort of use.

Crazy eh? 

Theo

Edit; sorry, I spoke being a bit uninformed, this is why it was actually voted: 



> The bill was formulated after a member of the ruling Panhellenic Socialist Movement (PASOK) political party was videotaped in an illegal gambling establishment, resulting in public hysteria that was fueled by sensationalist reporting in the press.


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## mathis (Jul 10, 2009)

Waywyn @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> @Simon: Hey dude, good to hear from you. Yeh it's actually weird. They remove svatikas of all the games ... I don't get it ... maybe they don't understand that you play AGAINST Nazis in e.g. Wolfenstein (which was not banned afaik, they just removed Hitlers coorparate identity logo :D



The non-scientific or documetaric usage of the Swastika is simply forbidden here in Germany.

"Erlaubt ist in Deutschland eine Hakenkreuzdarstellung nach § 86 Absatz 3 StGB nur, wenn sie „der staatsbürgerlichen Aufklärung, der Abwehr verfassungswidriger Bestrebungen, der Kunst oder der Wissenschaft, der Forschung oder der Lehre, der Berichterstattung über Vorgänge des Zeitgeschehens oder der Geschichte oder ähnlichen Zwecken dient“." (Wikipedia)

"The German (and Austrian) postwar criminal code makes the public showing of the Hakenkreuz (the swastika) and other Nazi symbols illegal and punishable, except for scholarly reasons." (Wikipedia)

I remember news some months ago that a punk band was sued because they used the Swastika. Of course they're punks and aren't affiliated in any positive way with Nazism...


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## Hannes_F (Jul 10, 2009)

Actually I am all for the ban of games that involve enthusiasm about the act of killing people. The thought alone is inhuman and will always stay so, no matter what excuses you find. 

The use of uplifting orchestral music in this context is a cumulation of the perversion.

Mankind can never involve without a certain care of the mental atmosphere. And everybody that remotely believes in Karma should maybe have a thought about that. Whatever one sows, that will he also reap.

Ouch, now I have said it. I guess that does not make me very popular here but still I can't help it. :roll:


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## Angel (Jul 10, 2009)

No, you are now wearing a tattoo on your forehead saying "I am lame" 
To be honest. I understand your words and what you are saying.
And you are - of course - free to think that.
But my opinion is, it's going too far. And it's too esoteric.
If we will argue on this level we could end up saying that every competition has something immoral. 

Just my 2 bullets


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## Hans Adamson (Jul 10, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> Actually I am all for the ban of games that involve enthusiasm about the act of killing people. The thought alone is inhuman and will always stay so, no matter what excuses you find.
> 
> The use of uplifting orchestral music in this context is a cumulation of the perversion.
> 
> ...


I agree. Never understood the attraction of these games.


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## Simon Ravn (Jul 10, 2009)

You're assuming that people don't know the difference from fantasy (computer games) and reality. Which all research shows that people do. Afterall, there are not millions of people walking around killing people in the streets after having played computer games. That myth has been busted years ago. People DO know they are playing a game.


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## Waywyn (Jul 10, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> Actually I am all for the ban of games that involve enthusiasm about the act of killing people. The thought alone is inhuman and will always stay so, no matter what excuses you find.
> 
> The use of uplifting orchestral music in this context is a cumulation of the perversion.
> 
> ...



Hey Hannes,

you will laugh, but actually I share kind of the same thought. There is stuff out there which really makes your stomach turn around ...

... but there is actually one thing I don't get:
Why are books free for sale which describe in all detail how a guy butchers out women ... think of American Psycho ...

... I can see severed limbs and heads in movies which are free at age 12

... I turn on the TV for breakfast and see dead bodies all over the place.


Then I ask myself, WHY are always games the evil factor. Surely a game is interactive and you play that guy who is shooting people etc. .. but in the end since it is all graphics it doesn't affect the brain as much as movies (study from england)

So in the end I am convinced that education and caring about the stuff your kid does is always most important than forbidding something. We all know what happens when you tell your child to NOT touch the hot stove )


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## Waywyn (Jul 10, 2009)

oh by the way, one add:

If you check statistics and stories you will find out that there have been amok runs all over the time ... mostly because of relationships and family dramas ... if someone wants to kill someone, he/she can do it with a simple IKEA knife ... you don't need games for that ... or wait, should we forbid relationships? :D


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## Alex W (Jul 10, 2009)

The greater issue here of course is censorship, which is never a good thing.


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## Hans Adamson (Jul 10, 2009)

Waywyn @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> ... but there is actually one thing I don't get:
> ...
> 
> ... I can see severed limbs and heads in movies which are free at age 12
> ...


Yes, it is outrageous. Who needs it? Are we that numb to mayhem? In Sweden there is (was?) film censuring based on what material would be numbing on peoples perception on violence. Don't know if it is still enforced.


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## mathis (Jul 10, 2009)

Simon Ravn @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> You're assuming that people don't know the difference from fantasy (computer games) and reality. Which all research shows that people do. Afterall, there are not millions of people walking around killing people in the streets after having played computer games. That myth has been busted years ago. People DO know they are playing a game.



That's not what Hannes is talking about. He's talking about Karma.


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## Waywyn (Jul 10, 2009)

Hans Adamson @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> Waywyn @ Fri Jul 10 said:
> 
> 
> > ... but there is actually one thing I don't get:
> ...



Spot on ... however I just ask myself if the 18+ badge isn't enough already. If they want, they should raise it to like 20 or 22. I don't care ... 18 year olds of today are not the 18 year olds of 30 years ago.

.. but I just ask myself why everyone is jumping around on games ONLY and most important thing, why the state forbids something to grown up people ...


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## Hans Adamson (Jul 10, 2009)

Waywyn @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> Hans Adamson @ Fri Jul 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Waywyn @ Fri Jul 10 said:
> ...


Why would anyone want to expose himself/herself to such images? Adults are just big kids. To me it was terrifying to see adults laugh when someone's head is shot off at close range in the movie Pulp Fiction.


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## Niah (Jul 10, 2009)

in the 50's it was comic books that were responsible for junvenile juvenile delinquency, criminal acts and preversion, then it was rock'n'roll, elvis, horror movies, TV, marilyn manson, gangsta rap..what else?

now it's video games.

:roll: 


basically this is connected with latest school massacres, and once again the media has all the answers. Whenever these things happen these media "investigators" always reveal what games these kids played or what music they listened. It seems that to them these kids are not responsible for their own actions, but videos games and music are. And somehow if we eliminate them the whole world can live in peace and sing kumbaya :D 

when columbine happened it was all over the news that these kids played doom and listened to NIN, and that somehow marilyn manson was also to blame for this (o) that was what pretty muchevery kid was doing at the time.

Quite simply there is no connection between commiting a violent act and watching a violent movie or playing a violent game. And instead of dealing the problem by investigating bullying, isolation, gun control, depression, social pressure, mental wealth in these cases we are just using games as scapegoats.


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## Waywyn (Jul 10, 2009)

Hans Adamson @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> Waywyn @ Fri Jul 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Hans Adamson @ Fri Jul 10 said:
> ...




True, but you can't simply forbid everything.
I mean where would that lead to?

Do you really think that the amok run rates go down when they forbid action games? Youth is getting more aggressive not because of games, but because noone listenes to them ... it is not the gun of a virtual soldier which makes this guy become a potential killer, but what the parents teach the kid and what the kid goes through in it's childhood (was it raised with totally wrong point of views, was it raped, terribly wrong educated etc.?)

It is true, most aggressive kids and potentional "amok runners" play violent games, but they don't become violent because they play the game. They are simply already violent and feel attracted by that stuff - that's all ... the same for hardcore horror movies, books, comics and music styles.

Btw: I remember the story when Judas Priest was accused because a guy comitted suicide while listenin to the bands CD ... what a a crapload of f*cking bullshit!
What about when "Take that" split up?


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## Simon Ravn (Jul 10, 2009)

mathis @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> Simon Ravn @ Fri Jul 10 said:
> 
> 
> > You're assuming that people don't know the difference from fantasy (computer games) and reality. Which all research shows that people do. Afterall, there are not millions of people walking around killing people in the streets after having played computer games. That myth has been busted years ago. People DO know they are playing a game.
> ...



Thanks for good laugh :lol:


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## choc0thrax (Jul 10, 2009)

There are three things in this world that cause mass shootings: NIN, FPS games and Marilyn Manson. Being a fan of all three I should've shot up a school years ago but the trenchcoat I wanted was on backorder at the store and I lost my myspace password so I couldn't post troubling pre-shooting behavior on there so i just threw up my hands and gave up.

Luckily the world has people like this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson_(activist) Loved by the gaming community and my personal hero.

Ok for some reason that link doesn't work too well.


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## Adamich (Jul 10, 2009)

Well, as most of you stated, the reason they ban these games and not violint/graphic books and movies is simply because you have control of the player. 
I remember reading the old transformers topic and SvK wrote "A video game is an interactive experience, which a film can never be." Since the player has the role of the protagonist, which all you see is a gun and maybe feet, you are, well quite literally, in the shoes of the killer. You are controlling and choosing to kill who you want to and how.
This scares politicians and mothers. 
I mean, sure, I bet theres a rare occasion or two where a child does do violent acts because of video games. Same goes with film and tv though. Same goes with watching the news. Though to actually put the blame on the games itself is insane. If your kid is in that mental state, there are definite signs. It's a parent job to see this, and do what they can to make it better, hell, be a good parent. 

my .02


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## Stevie (Jul 10, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> Actually I am all for the ban of games that involve enthusiasm about the act of killing people. The thought alone is inhuman and will always stay so, no matter what excuses you find.
> 
> The use of uplifting orchestral music in this context is a cumulation of the perversion.
> 
> ...



Strange, centuries ago people killed each other very violently and they did not have 1st person shooters then... 

To be correct, we should remove all violent movies on TV, too.
Those are accessible even easier for children/teens.
Oh yeah and we should forbid Internet as well.


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## choc0thrax (Jul 10, 2009)

And ban religion too, that seems to have caused some deaths over the years.


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## Stevie (Jul 10, 2009)

Good one choco. It's on my list.

BTW, I was truly shocked when watching that video (hence my age, I'm not 16) of that girl from Iran dying, with blood all over her (Ned's avatar).
I actually wasn't expecting it to be so severe, I seen it on MSN, without even having to log in! I find this much more disturbing than playing shooters...


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## Jaap (Jul 10, 2009)

Extreme violent behaviour has always multiple causes and is never a "black and white" situation. While gaming can play a part in it in very rare occassions it is never the main reason as there is hardly anything a main reason, but always sum up of a lot of stuff going on in ones social environment.
While I agree that any form of (extreme) violent entertainment should be kept away from kids, banning action games isn't the solution.


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## nikolas (Jul 10, 2009)

Jack is considered an activist? That poohead?! :D LOL!

Honestly he's one of the most moronic people in the States it seems (now that Bush is gone off calliber). 

Let's get real here: Germans (you know... alex, Stevie, those people) should be locked up, not only for playing computer games, but for providing audio for them and advocating against the ban. The ban is good for all humanity, not only Germans! Germans are the ones who will lead the way! :D

(it seems that I can't make a serious post for quite some time now. Honestly take a look at my last 10-20 posts... Geez...)


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## gsilbers (Jul 10, 2009)

if its true that kids will do whats in video games then that means their will is a whole generation 
running away from "ghosts" in dark places with electronic music and eating white pills 
:mrgreen: 
 

on of my fav funny quotes from someones avatar somewhere else.


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## nikolas (Jul 10, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyAUbtHD8SQ&
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1mhlCs8wCA

right?


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## synergy543 (Jul 10, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> Actually I am all for the ban of games that involve enthusiasm about the act of killing people. The thought alone is inhuman and will always stay so, no matter what excuses you find.
> 
> The use of uplifting orchestral music in this context is a cumulation of the perversion.
> 
> ...


I agree with Hannes and Hans. The attraction to killing for pleasure and sport is extremely deranged. Clearly the advocates here have no kids. If you've ever watched small children and how absored they can become playing video games for hours, and how differently they react afterwards, its clearly apparent they can easily consfuse fantasy for reality. They can easily lose their sense of self-responsibility. I know many adults that I think fall into the same trap. In fact, I think in general our society (particularly in America) has lost a great deal of self-responsibility. Children however, do need some form of guidance. Hopefully it would just be sensible parents rather than laws and regulations.

For me, the fun stops when you begin to put someone else at risk. Regardless of whether its an irresponsible reaction to video games, tailgating, drug use or drunk driving.

Yet, at the same time, I fear losing personal freedom of choice. We lose these freedoms because people are not self responsible. Which is why we end up having a law to regulate every little human action. Its quite a sad direction we are taking. Are we humans incapable of balancing our own lives to the point that we need the goverment to decide everything for us? 

For me, the issuse ultimately seems to be lack of self-responsibility rather than a need for another rule or regulation. But how can we address this important "real cause of the problem" rather that its effects?


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## choc0thrax (Jul 10, 2009)

nikolas @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> Jack is considered an activist? That poohead?! :D LOL!
> 
> Honestly he's one of the most moronic people in the States it seems (now that Bush is gone off calliber).
> 
> ...



Maybe Jack Thompson should relocate to Germany and become the anti videogame violence movement's Fuhrer. I can just see a night raid on a small town, some officers storm a house, Waywyn hidden under some floorboards quietly drawing expression curves on a game cue he's working on. The glow of his triple monitor setup radiates up through the floor cracks. He narrowly escapes with his life but many a MIDI file are lost. o/~


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## synergy543 (Jul 10, 2009)

Alex W @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> The greater issue here of course is censorship, which is never a good thing.



The greater issue is lack of self-responsibility which leads censorship. 

Through humans doing irresponsible things that harm others. Go ahead and have your fun. Smoke a joint, get drunk play 1st person shooter if you wish. Do it in your own space and it causes no harm to anyone else. Its just when someone goes beyond their personal boundaries and acts irresponsibly among others causing conflict conflict and harm that censorship arises. Leading crusades of moral police to tell everyone what to do in their own personal lives.

How did we lose sight so badly of even what the problem is let alone how to deal with it?


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## nikolas (Jul 10, 2009)

synergy543 @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> Hannes_F @ Fri Jul 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with Hannes and Hans. The attraction to killing for pleasure and sport is extremely deranged. Clearly the advocates here have no kids.


Whoops!

I have two kids, aged 5.5 and 3.5! Took them today to Ice Age 3 (3-d. Nice one, but not Pixar). 

And I don't support the ban. 

_________________

The following is probably in agreement with synergy

For the record my kids have seen scenes (not the whole movies, because they get bored): Videos from NIN and Marilyn Manson
(And Queen, and Bon jovi and other)
Spiderman II
Winnie the pooh movies
Most Disney movies, especially Fantasia 1941
Concerts of classical music (including a fantastic performance of Roger Murro of Messiaens' work for solo piano "vingt regard sure l'enfant Jesus" (sp?)

etc...

I could be a very bad father... But seeing how my kids love me and understand me and do realise that it's fantasy (since they've not attempted to fly away like Spiderman does), it leaves me open to interpretations to what my kids think. The younger one does like guns, etc, but the older does not AT ALL! He simply does not show any violent tendencies whatsoever and for Halloween would like to dress Jafar (from Alladin), and have a magic wand! :D LOL

________________

There's no denying that violent pics, actings, movies, etc, will provide an insight and ideas to someone troubled. But then again a troubled person will find ways to act or express themselves either way, with or without examples!

Problem is that you can't ban everything. (a lame example: You think that movies are better? That tv is better? That the news are better?)

Maybe it's not a matter of banning, but a matter of education? Maybe it's a matter of not abandoning your kids to a playstation/WBox/Wii/TV/DVD and spending time with them? Maybe the whole society needs changing towards spending more time with your family, instead of finding unsuitable substitutes?


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## synergy543 (Jul 10, 2009)

Nikolas, I agree its a matter of education and spending caring time with your family.

I never set any limits with my own kid about playing games, drugs, bedtime, etc. No rules - none. Instead, I taught him common sense and gave him freedom to explore. We'd talk and he'd learn how to make good decisions. Aside from a very short period of rebellion during his gaming explorations (where he discovered the best way to get back at me was to turn off the house power), I've never had any problems and he's gone on to become the most responsible kid you've ever met. We're best buddies and he's completed two engineering degrees and runs his own company and is a loving caring person.


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## nikolas (Jul 10, 2009)

I do hope the same for my kids!  

I also do hope to keep them clear (through common sense of course) of drugs and smoking. It's two of the things that can get uncontrollable and ruin a life...


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## Seb (Jul 10, 2009)

> for our germans here or everyone who could manage to register and sign here, please do it



Done. Alex, do you know how many participators are needed to effect something? atm there are 35794 "signatures". 

Bye, 
Seb


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## Niah (Jul 10, 2009)

synergy543 @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> I agree with Hannes and Hans. The attraction to killing for pleasure and sport is extremely deranged. Clearly the advocates here have no kids.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpNGeyEp5kM


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## Stevie (Jul 10, 2009)

nikolas @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> Let's get real here: Germans (you know... alex, Stevie, those people) should be locked up, not only for playing computer games, but for providing audio for them and advocating against the ban. The ban is good for all humanity, not only Germans! Germans are the ones who will lead the way! :D



Yeah Nikolas, I mean you met me in Frankfurt, you know what fucked up psycho I am >8o


EDIT: OKAY OKAY OKAY, You are right. 3D-Shooter HAVE an impact on people.
I confess it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jBKKV2V8eU&feature=fvst


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## Waywyn (Jul 10, 2009)

Seb @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> > for our germans here or everyone who could manage to register and sign here, please do it
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey Seb,

it is 50.000 as far as I heard. Then they will discuss that topic again.
The funny thing is, around 8000 counts were added only today!!


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## synergy543 (Jul 10, 2009)

Niah @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> synergy543 @ Fri Jul 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with Hannes and Hans. The attraction to killing for pleasure and sport is extremely deranged. Clearly the advocates here have no kids.
> ...



:shock: <---means "SHOCK"

Nice find Niah, I don't know what to say... 
I gues these parents are teaching their kids self-responsibility to defend their houses with machine guns? 
Clearly different ideas of self-responsibility in this [sic?] country. You betcha!

But at least they weren't moose hunting from helicopters. :mrgreen:


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## Waywyn (Jul 10, 2009)

synergy543 @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> Niah @ Fri Jul 10 said:
> 
> 
> > synergy543 @ Fri Jul 10 said:
> ...




Oh man, this is just sick!

... I'd rather prefer to watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV59_if9vTw


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## Stevie (Jul 10, 2009)

Another thought, maybe we should forbid alcohol in general and smoking, too. 
I heard it kills people. And there always is an elder one of the group who hooks up
the younger with that stuff. So the risk is just too high, IMO. WE CANT TAKE IT!


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## mikebarry (Jul 10, 2009)

Disturbing.

But this frightens me more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac


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## Stevie (Jul 10, 2009)

What a sick shit man...
Now I understand psychologist make so much money in the US.


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## Waywyn (Jul 10, 2009)

mikebarry @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> Disturbing.
> 
> But this frightens me more.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac



Lol, yeh, this is like the weirdest shit of it all!!!
I really enjoyed the part where she talked about Harry Potter. Warlords are enemies of god ... uhm ... yes .. a fictional character??? I laughed hard!


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## Seb (Jul 10, 2009)

> But this frightens me more.



Let´s all hope they won´t ever combine this with that freaky "Take your kid to war"-day. 

In times, where this is possible, I think men should probably take care of this first and then think about banning action games. There´s still a difference between a nine year old with a mouse and a nine year old whose daddy hands him a UZI and says go for it...



> it is 50.000 as far as I heard. Then they will discuss that topic again.
> The funny thing is, around 8000 counts were added only today!! Smile
> Stevie
> Post (No subject)



Okay, so at least another audition should be safe.

Seb


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## Stevie (Jul 10, 2009)

Waywyn @ Sat Jul 11 said:


> Lol, yeh, this is like the weirdest [email protected]#t of it all!!!
> I really enjoyed the part where she talked about Harry Potter. Warlords are enemies of god ... uhm ... yes .. a fictional character??? I laughed hard!



I dont wanna imagine what she would say about LOTR...


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## Alex W (Jul 10, 2009)

synergy543 @ Sat Jul 11 said:


> Alex W @ Fri Jul 10 said:
> 
> 
> > The greater issue here of course is censorship, which is never a good thing.
> ...



I agree with what you're saying - and I loved reading about how you treated your son. It's the exact kind of approach I would attempt to take, if I was a dad.

Going back to what you said about censorship, obviously I'm referring to government censorship. Adults should always be given the right to choose what they watch. Censorship happens naturally within society anyway - if a TV station were to suddenly air something incredibly offensive with no prior warning, the public would in a sense "censor" the TV station by choosing not to watch it any more, the ratings would drop, and the TV station would have to improve its act if it wanted to stay a viable business.

I think a society without any government censorship will ultimately become a more tolerant society.


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## synergy543 (Jul 10, 2009)

Seb @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> Okay, so at least another audition should be safe.



That's what Dimebag Darrell thought too.


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## Seb (Jul 10, 2009)

> That's what Dimebag Darrell thought too.



Besides me mistaking "audition" for "hearing": Bam! That was dead on.


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## Niah (Jul 10, 2009)

I hope that this doesn't turn out like the other French vs Piracy thread, where if you are against a certain law that's because you are pro piracy or violence.  

Now I respect Hans and Hannes or anyone if they don't like these kind of games or movies. But what I can't respect is any insinuation that people who do like them, are simply deranged, violent and potential criminals. These type of games and movies, etc, are rollercoaster rides and forms of escapism, where people face their fears, it can even be cathartic...and you don't have to understand you just have to accept it. 

I loved Pulp Fiction but I thought the passion of the christ was one of the most violent movies I ever saw. I am not kidding. I almost left the theatre several times while nuns, and children were being moved by this....gorefest . So it really depends on the individual.

But anyway that's not what we are talking about here are we?

As I stated before this banning comes in the wake of all these school massacres. If you support this banning you are essentially saying that action games = violence. I don't have kids but I work in a school as a psychologist with kids and teens and I might not have much field experience but I have been dealing with this subject since my college days and this direct connection between violent games/movies and acts of violence is simply unfundamented. Because again it all depends on the individual.
These massacres are highly complex but the people who commit such acts seem to have a padron of anti social behaviour, various psychosis, distorted perceptions of reality and easy access to guns.
More than that it seems that very few "taking heads" seem to focus on the challenges that kids face today and how there needs to be dramatic changes in our schools. Kids are exposed to high stress levels, are on medication at a very early age, suffer incredible pressure from parents and teachers to succeed academically, then there are the cases of bullying, etc...

These are the things nobody wants to discuss or talk about and the government simply wants to ban violet games and turn their backs on this issue. The media exploits these cases on the news with this simplistic notion of violent games = violence and even glorifies them by showing the shooter wth videos from youtube, 2,3, 4 times. Giving exactly the attention that these shooters wanted to have after the massacre. And This has much more impact on kids and teens than any violent game or movie out there

Now I don't play games and I am not a game composer but punishing an industry and a community of gamers for this is absurd and a coup-out. More than that it's sad to see such an important issue being dealt the wrong way.

At least Finland talked about gun control after some shootings, that's a start.


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## nikolas (Jul 10, 2009)

mikebarry @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> Disturbing.
> 
> But this frightens me more.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac


Disturbing is the least one can say really. Talk about fucked up! WOW!


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## mikebarry (Jul 10, 2009)

sadly if one were to generalize based on geographical location these two videos would be from common stock, the southern heart of the country. Yet I bet you would also find a large majority of the USA's volunteer soldiers to come from this area also. So i am not sure what to make of it. Either way both of this videos are really disturbing as is this petition. It's a bit too 1984 for me.


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## Jaap (Jul 11, 2009)

+1 on what Niah said.

As I said in my previous post: extreme violent behaviour has a lot of reasons and I don't think we should forget what a great great role the media is playing. 
These horrible incidents gets hyped and spread around the world. This is more dangerous then we can imagine. This has big impact on the already "disturbed" souls. They see it and they identify with it and think that is kinda "cool" to do as well.
But would banning the media help? No!
Same as banning games won't help. Age restriction, yes, banning no!

These kind of actions are the responsibility of a whole social community around such a person. Parents, doctors, teachers, friends, neighbours etc failed to provide somebody a stable and healthy environment and to NOT notice any signals.

People tend to get triggered easily to expose violent behaviour, but there is a lot that triggers us: bad work, traffic, bad sex, sports, no friends, traumatic youth etc etc etc etc etc.

If we start banning stuff, the list has to be endless. Plus don't forget that things that are banned often have much much more attractive value. There is nothing wrong with a good action game, same as with action films or whatever, but it's the parents job to make sure they stay out of the hands of young kids as well as the shops that sell them, that they are sure they sell it correctly as the age restriction would require.


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## Hans Adamson (Jul 11, 2009)

Sweden was the first country in the world with censuring of movies for adults 1911. This film censuring is still in effect. The last film censured (according to Wikipedia) was Casino (1995). The censuring prohibits imagery that in a gross way desensitizes people to violence. The only critique I ever heard or read from anyone in Sweden regarding this censuring was from film critics protesting the censuring of films like Sam Peckinpah's "Bring me the head of Alfredo garcia" because they thought the violence was artistically motivated. In a democratic society the majority has the right to impose restrictions such as film censuring. And if a majority opposes it and finds it important enough such measures will be reversed. It is not comparable to George orwell's 1984.


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## Waywyn (Jul 11, 2009)

One thing comes to my mind when i was studying in LA. I watched TV and you could see all those kinds of violent clips, such as little children run in front of a train or a car explodes in like a enormous fireball etc .... but then you see a talkshow or a tv series and as soon as there is a tiny little small spot of a tit ... you have those huge pixels coming in ... 

I know this doesn't have relation with the current game situation in germany, but we have this funny approach here too on cencorship.

I recently saw the movie Tomb of the Dragon Emperor. Lots of weird stuff is happening here, such as one guy is decapitating another one with his bare fire hands .. then someones face is crumbeling off etc. ... The same goes for Spiderman 3 or Lord of the Rings ... people fall apart, limbs are severad, heads are flying ....I am not trying to act like a wimp or so, but those movies are free to watch for 12 year old ... hello?

Then you have a game where you click the mouse and you see 3 pixel of blood flying around, then a pixel soldier falls down and this is like causing violent behaviours? No way!  ... and keep in mind that goverment is now trying to forbid those games to over 18+ aged ... a huge big *LOL*


You could literally compare the whole situation with food:
Some people like chili, for some it's too hot, others can die because of one single peanut ... see? It's all a matter of "how much you can digest with your head"!


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## Jaap (Jul 12, 2009)

Just out of curiousity since people take on both sides quite a statement. 

Hans, as developper, would you sell one of your instruments if you know it is used by a composer who works for the game industry and that their is a risk that your product is going to be used for a very violent action game.

The same question can go as well for composers who are in favor for banning : what would you do if a game company license your music for an action game through a library or something like that. Do you put a restriction on the use of your music?


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## Waywyn (Jul 15, 2009)

Es ist vollbracht! ... MU ... HA-HA-HA ...

Petition almost reached 60k signs and it is still 4 days left to sign! 
Means there will be at least another discussion about that topic.


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## Angel (Jul 15, 2009)

I hope it will be more successful than the "Internetsperre"


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## Adamich (Jul 15, 2009)

Waywyn @ Fri Jul 10 said:


> mikebarry @ Fri Jul 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Disturbing.
> ...


Here is the full version if anyone wants to watch:
http://www.atheistnation.net/video/?video/00118/atheist/jesus-camp/ (http://www.atheistnation.net/video/?vid ... esus-camp/)


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