# Scoring a feature film - What rights?



## Walid F. (Aug 12, 2013)

Hey,

so I've been asked to score a ~2h feature film. We've agreed on an upfront payment for the entire soundtrack, and I will score it and produce it myself. 

This is my first film that I've scored, so I want to know what I should be asking outside of the upfront money? What rights should I claim (or at least bring up to discussion), such as royalties? 

The movie will most likely be shown in cinemas, sold later as DVD (or something similar), and perhaps on TV. What would I need to do to get what I could? 

I know these are big questions, but if any experienced composer in here could shed some light on it, and how I should think and what I should do, I would really appreciate it!


If I'm making myself badly understood, please let me know!
W


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 12, 2013)

You should try to get what is reasonable so as to not come off as a beginner. If you ask for something very rare, like to keep all your rights of re-use, for example, and 100% of all royalties, it might seem silly.

As you may know, royalties are divided between composing and publishing. Typically, I will ask for/be offered 50% of all royalties (composer royalties for me, publishing royalties for the producer-s). In some cases I can also get an additional 25% for my publishing company - in which case, the producer only gets 25% of combined royalties (or half the publishing - same thing). But that is *not* that common. As for re-use of the music, most films/tv series will not allow you to re-use the music, unless it's a really, really low-budget project, and you are given full re-use privilege as a compensation for low payment.


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## dgburns (Aug 12, 2013)

Usually you get the writer share of the PRO royalties based on performance in theatre and TV.The royalties are usually split into writer and publisher shares.Most established producers will demand the publisher share,as many have factored this income into their projections.If the producer has a company that manages the royalty side for them,it means you won't have to keep chasing down the sales etc,so it can be peace of mind knowing you don't have to track the sales and activity of the film to get your money a few years later.

Soundtrack score albums are for the most part not a big money maker,and the mechanicals which might include film transfers,tapes to broadcasters may be handled by your PRO if it has a reciprocal agreement with any mechanical rights org in your area.As an example in Canada,we have SOCAN(pro org) and SODRAC(mechanicals).they are in the process of co-ordinating more closely.So if that's the case in Europe,due to CISAC,you may not even need to do anything else as well.

so...

Asking for what you think is fair,based on all you know,is always the best way forward.And ask the questions while you are talking with the producer.It is always helpful to be upfront and communicate all this so all sides know the deal they are entering into.

IMHO as always
david


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## MarkS_Comp (Aug 12, 2013)

dgburns @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> Usually you get the writer share of the PRO royalties based on performance in theatre and TV.



There are no PRO royalteis for performance in theatre.

This is what you want:

Fee for score
Film keeps 100% of the publishing, and owns the music outright
You keep 100% of the writer's

If you are getting next to nothing for the fee, you should ask for a portion of the publishing. If your fee is good, than you shouldn't.


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## rgames (Aug 12, 2013)

There's no single answer to the question. It depends entirely on your situation.

There are cases where you should be more than willing to give up all royalties.

There are cases where you should not be willing to give up any piece of the royalties.

Here's how you decide: figure out what you need to make in return for the effort then guess what will give you that or more based on your tolerance for risk.

Doesn't matter if you're a composer or a lawyer or a plumber. The business case evaluation is the same.

It doesn't matter what's standard or common practice. The only thing that matters is what works for you.

rgames


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## Walid F. (Aug 12, 2013)

Thanks for the answers, they're all great and insightful! 

To give you an idea of what I'm getting upfront... The deal is that I will get 5k USD as a minimum upfront payment (since expensive actors gonna be expensive and take 70% of all the budget, whilst I get 2.5% at the beginning). We will then do a fundraiser, and possibly get some investors helping out, and the director said that the money coming from that will first and foremost go into the music fee as she KNOWS that music is the most important thing to have for emotion in a movie. At any rate, we have not discussed these things, like what I can get after it's done, what rights I should hold...

But I guess I should take what you guys are saying, 100% writer's share (to which follows a question below), and the upfront fee.

Here comes more questions (sorry if I sound like a total f'ing noob with all of this...)



@Ned - I actually have no clue where these royalties come from. I thought royalties were something that I could get a share of from example DVD sales (say for example 3% of all DVD sales for a while, with a guaranteed 5k minimum, and then 2% for the rest, or something). What are these different royalties (composing/publishing), and where are they generated from? Do the royalties I get from my PRO count in, in those or is that completely separate?

@dgburns - Yeah, so I know I do get some sort of automatic royalty income from my national PRO (STIM), if my music has been registered. I guess I need to fill in a cue sheet for the movie too (all the tracks that are in), which I'm also guessing I can get from STIM. I don't really understand mechanical rights, how am I connected - as a composer - to that?

@MarkS_Comp - Same question as for Ned.. I don't get where these "writer's royalties" contra "publishing royalties) are coming from...

@rgames - Yeah, so I know that it all depends on situation. But my real wondering is what usually revolves around a film project like this, in regards to royalties and such. What royalties exist that I might bargain for (people have already answered this), and so forth. But ye, you're definitely right - I should do what makes me get the job done, and every party getting happy from the entire deal.

W


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 12, 2013)

Royalties are collected from broadcasters (TV) and distributors (Film) by societies like STIM and passed on to composers and publishers. The money comes from advertising.

Good for you if you get anything from DVD sales. I have never seen a cent from DVD sales or rentals.


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## Walid F. (Aug 12, 2013)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Aug 13 said:


> Royalties are collected from broadcasters (TV) and distributors (Film) by societies like STIM and passed on to composers and publishers. The money comes from advertising.



so all royalties are handled by STIM then? how do they know if I own any rights for the film (other than performing rights)? I guess what I'm asking is about the writer's share.

W


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## dgburns (Aug 12, 2013)

MarkS_Comp @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> dgburns @ Mon Aug 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Usually you get the writer share of the PRO royalties based on performance in theatre and TV.
> ...



easy does it there dude,PRO's do in fact pay royalty performances in theatres.Just not in the good ol' U.S. of A.

International reporting is up largely due to CISAC and the ongoing co-operation between PRO 's and their reciprocal agreements.Tariffs charged on music performances from Europe,as an example,are much higher than other places.Keep in mind PRO's are generally not for profit entities largely created to look after their own,so the fact that ASCAP,BMI,PRS etc are all talking more is good for all of us.

that said,theatre performance tariffs are lower here in Canada than conventional tv and cable as a whole,but they do in fact pay.


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## gsilbers (Aug 12, 2013)

Walid F. @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Aug 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Royalties are collected from broadcasters (TV) and distributors (Film) by societies like STIM and passed on to composers and publishers. The money comes from advertising.
> ...



you should sign up for a PRO. and also make sure that company is represented around the world. if not, joing BMI or ascap etc. 

royalites is BIG business. so better wise up dude. thats where you will get paid for real if for example your little movie gets picked up by a big distributor like universal or sony, for heck who knows what reason they decided they need to acquire more swedish indies movies.


lets say that happens. then that means that the big distributor will get the music and effects stems (with your music) goes to different countries for their own langauge dubbing. that means that those countries broadcaster will also pay royalties to the PROs. now think about what that distribution means. every country will pay you money, every so often and if its in prime time in EU then that big money. 
lets say your $5K is NOTHING compare to that. 

remember that even made for tv movies on big channels pay huge license fees because the amount of potential eyes on that tv show. which the same rule applies to royalties. more eyes on a show and more royalties you get. 

then there is DVD. which is not that much. sadly. and then there is EST/VOD. which is not that much but still adds up. 


in another note. not sure why people here go straight for "keep writers share" 

fuck that.. ask first if you get paid such a low fee upfront, then you KEEP your music and license it for that film for eternity and throuout the universe (yes, contracts say that becuase who knows if we go live in saturn) 
but leave it exclusive for 3-5 years and then its non exclusive and you can use it for libraries. 
they pay you to do a score, you license it, exclusively and if a big broasdcaster picks it up they have to buy out your license. which depending on the distributor you might get big bucks. just think that a movie for tv in EU licensce a broadcaster pays the distrbutor is about $100-200k!! so you can easily ask double what they initially paid you and more. 

this is not hard at all and if you ask and are with your buddy producers then its just a phone call to the lawyer to draft the paperwork. 
"just getting writers share" is just easier and what everyone does , thus the reason people keep saying that.

so start with that, but if they pull back and get wierd then go with writers share. if its your first movie that last thing you wanna do is freak them out or give them a headache after the so many they have to deal for the movie.


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## MarkS_Comp (Aug 12, 2013)

dgburns @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> easy does it there dude,PRO's do in fact pay royalty performances in theatres.Just not in the good ol' U.S. of A.



I did not know that. See - learn something new every day. And had I kept my mouth shut, I would not have learned anything today. Precisely why I do not keep my mouth shut.


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## wonshu (Aug 13, 2013)

MarkS_Comp @ Tue Aug 13 said:


> dgburns @ Mon Aug 12 said:
> 
> 
> > easy does it there dude,PRO's do in fact pay royalty performances in theatres.Just not in the good ol' U.S. of A.
> ...



I didn't know that either.

Sorry to go OT for a moment:

There need to be better composers associations in the US who start campaigning for better royalty deals.

I think in the wake of the Pandora disaster there's a good chance at the moment to get some excellent publicity surrounding royalties and why they are good (err... essential) for the middle class composers.


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## Walid F. (Aug 13, 2013)

thanks for the intensive answer! I am actually registered in the PRO here in Sweden: STIM. so that's settled for now. those guys are also connected to all the other PROs out there.

the movie isn't actually a swedish indie movie, but a $200k (minimum before fundraiser+investorcache) set to shoot in New Mexico by an American LLC, and therefore probably distributed there at first.

to me it sounds like it will fix itself with royalties through my PRO if this is broadcasted on theatres and TV? the only thing i need to ensure is that because of this low upfront fee, I should argue to license it exclusively only for 3-5 years as you said (and then be able to relicense to other things) and retain rights to sell the soundtrack. 



gsilbers @ Tue Aug 13 said:


> in another note. not sure why people here go straight for "keep writers share"



as i'm understanding it correctly, writer's share is a part of the license fee a broadcaster, with TV for example, pays the distributor (which i guess can be the publisher too). in this license fee (that they pay to be able to use this on their channel), are the writer's and publisher's share. am i way out in the water?

W


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## cc64 (Aug 13, 2013)

Hi Walid,

Congrats on landing the gig!

Lots of good info in this thread. But don't stop here, call or e-mail someone in Sweden higher in the food chain.

For example you're getting 50/50 examples concerning shares but in France and maybe Germany and other places like Scandinavia, a publisher cannot take more than 33% by law so it's 66% for you  

When i sign a contract for something that will get airplay in France i always work hard to specify in writing that it's 50/50 for the world except France.

It has been very good to me 

So you need to make sure you get info relevant to Your situation! Call STIM even.

Good luck!

@ Ned don't you declare your stuff to SODRAC? I've received very good money for DVD sales.

Claude


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## mark812 (Aug 13, 2013)

Lot of useful info here, thanks everyone! Like Walid (congrats on your first feature :D), I don't know a thing about royalties, contracts etc. so this was really helpful.


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## Walid F. (Aug 13, 2013)

cc64 @ Tue Aug 13 said:


> Hi Walid,
> 
> Congrats on landing the gig!
> 
> ...



thanks! 
i will surely call STIM and talk to them about my situation, and what i should ask and do. this is quite a jungle for me at the moment...

when you say 33% and 66%, of what? of all the royalties collected by the PROs? i still don't understand if there's a difference between performance royalties and writer's share+publisher's share - meaning the money collected through STIM, will 100% of that go to me or just my "writer's share"?

W


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## Rctec (Aug 13, 2013)

I read the question and the answers....and all I can think of is, get a good entertainment lawyer. The answers are just touching the surface of a huge topic that - quite frankly - you'll never have the time to research properly...unless you become a lawyer instead of a composer.
What I'm trying to say is that you are not in a position to negotiate this deal properly. Nor is the other side. Most producers/production companies don't know enough about music copyright law. I find that usually my lawyer - specializing in film and TV music - can make a better deal not just for me, but the film makers. But, hypothetically, you should - for a five thousand dollar budget - keep both writers and publisher share. The copy-rights issue is different. You have to figure out a way that doesn't stop them from doing third-party deals with distributors. You can even just lease them the score, but don't put them into an impossible situation.
The performing rights societies are a tricky thing in themselves, and the pros and cons about who is better (your local one or a big U.S. one) are worth investigating. The rates will differ from country to country, and the power they wield at collecting is very much tied to their individual countries's market.
The reason all this is so important is that you never know what will happen to your music independently of the movie. Vangelis' score for 1492 did comparatively far better business than the movie itself - because a boxer in Germany decided to use one of the tracks for his theme, and turned it into a huge hit. One little cue from "Backdraft" became the theme for a very successful cooking show.... None of this could have been predicted at the time we negotiated the original deal. I have the luck of working with great film makers and courteous studios, which means they run every license request past me first. I get at least one request a day - from commercials to reality shows...
The real work of exploiting your music starts the day the movie comes out. But you need someone far more knowledgable, good and fair to help you with your deal.
Not an agent (never pay a royalty to a lawyer. What if its a huge hit? Work out their hourly rate then!) but a good show biz lawyer. With a background in international copyright law...
I've been at this for a long time, and I know that I know nothing.


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## MarkS_Comp (Aug 13, 2013)

Hans - I am tempted to say good advice, but when you are someone like Walid - or me, for that matter - is it really worth it to lawyer up? I understand the concept of getting the best deal for yourself, but if you do tell the producer to deal with your lawyer, don't you run the risk of having that producer find another composer, becasue maybe they dont want to have to deal with a lawyer, or get a lawyer themselves? Thoughts on that?


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## Walid F. (Aug 14, 2013)

thanks Hans, for your input! what you're saying sounds very reasonable since that would allow me to get the best deal possible and make me focus on my music instead.

I do somewhat lean towards MarkS's questions there too. but maybe i can find a cheap and good lawyer? it doesn't really take much time from them i guess. and also, yeah... won't a lawyer scare the producers/directors away? though if so, very unpro of them i guess.



Rctec @ Wed Aug 14 said:


> What I'm trying to say is that you are not in a position to negotiate this deal properly.




a friend of mine tipsed me about a society here in sweden that offer legal advice and stuff, for a membership cost of around 1000 sek/year (155 usd/year)... maybe worth a shot? i'm not swimming in the greens :D
http://www.fst.se/english/index.php


W


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