# Crippling Depression



## Zedcars (Jun 27, 2021)

Not sure where to post this, or even if I should post it.

Does anyone else suffer from depression here? I get days where I can’t even bare to fire up my computer and try to compose. Sometimes I load up Cubase and just sit there staring at it and all my equipment wondering why I’ve bought all this gear.

I do have good spells. From March to May I started writing a children’s musical and wrote 6 decent songs (although, my confidence in my music seems to take a nosedive quite often). Last song I finished was a comedy song, so I guess I haven’t lost my sense of humour.

Now, for reasons I don’t fully understand, I struggle to do the normal things in life, let alone write any music. I don’t really feel like doing anything, even talking to people is hard work. I’ll try and watch a movie but feel like I’m not really enjoying it. I have a piano which I play off and on. I can’t really face that either at the moment.

I don’t write music professionally. It’s just a very serious and lifelong hobby for me. I’d probably be in a much worse place if I had to earn my living this way.

None of my family pay much attention to the music I write. My dad was partly supportive, but he passed away last year unfortunately.

Sometimes I splash out on new libraries, but they often see little use from me. I guess I just lack confidence.

It’s these spells of darkness where I feel very down and, worse…this is hard to say on here, but I wish I could just disappear you know. I mean, I wouldn’t do that, because I don’t want to cause any pain in my family, but it’s still there in my thoughts every day tbh.

Lots of things have happened to me in the past which has affected my confidence in a negative way. I do try to pick myself up quite often. Sometimes I’ll get gripped by a writing bug obsession and write quite a bit like did for this musical. But then all of a sudden I’ll get depressed again and it will all stop and dry up.

Does this affect others here? What are your coping mechanisms?

Any help would be very appreciated.

Kind regards,
Darren


----------



## doctoremmet (Jun 27, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Does anyone else suffer from depression here?


I do Darren. Brave of you to share this here. I recognize an aweful lot of the things you say. I am not sure if I can help but if you’d like to chat sometime, DM me.


----------



## Markrs (Jun 27, 2021)

HI Darren, whilst I don't suffer depression, my former partner (who I am still very close friends with) used to suffer a lot. She is still on medication, but has been seeing a psychologist/counsellor for 5 years. Whilst it is a long journey, and she still suffers from anxiety and depression, the down days are further apart and the recovery time has shortened. Working on her mental health will be a lifelong journey, but slowly things have improved.

I would look into ways you can be supported by through this. Medication can help reduce the real lows (I know medication can be a worry, but brain dopamine in balance is often a compounding factor) and work with professional psychologists and counsellors.

If at any time you need to talk, I can be there, as can many others. Do consider also reaching out to voluntary organizations like Samaritans, they are trained and can really help when things get too much.

I just want to thank you for being brave and writing this post. This is a very positive step, we cannot climb out of a whole by ourselves, but we can with the help of others.

Stay strong

Mark


----------



## ptram (Jun 27, 2021)

Dealt with depression all my life, and have learnt how to deal with it. Basically, I walk. Walk, and try to leave things behind me. It usually works. If not for anything else, at least for exhaustion.

Unfortunately, I’m living a moment when this is not very effective. The health of my parents is suddenly falling down, and I'm spending much time in hospitals. And my new neighbors have their air conditioner turned on all the night, so I've not been able to sleep since two weeks, with the perspective of being no longer able to live my own house.

So, no hints, now, apart for the usually suggestion of waiting for it to pass.

Paolo


----------



## Loïc D (Jun 27, 2021)

From what you describe, you feel very lonely with your music.
From time to time, I feel the same with all my gear around me and not producing a single note… but that is usually after a long day working.
My office desk is also my studio so I guess my brain just gets tired of staying in the same room, just changing activities.

It is hard to give advices, but I feel like you’d feel better and more motivated getting on a project. Scoring for a movie, play in a band. Put a bit more social around music.
Good luck, and I’m sure you’ll get plenty of support from ViC community.


----------



## Markrs (Jun 27, 2021)

ptram said:


> Basically, I walk. Walk, and try to leave things behind me.


My friend does the same, has really helped. Getting fresh air, the heart pumping and the dopamine from exercise is something many use to help day to day. My friend ensures she walks every day and if possible will meet up with someone to walk with. Walking groups can be useful to, you don't have to talk but you are walking with company which can help


----------



## mybadmemory (Jun 27, 2021)

Thanks for sharing Darren. First, do you know why you're having these feelings? Can you see any concrete external factors in your life like covid, work, money, friends, divorce, death, or similar? Or is it coming from within, without you being able to pinpoint why?

And secondly, is this something new, or rather something that have followed you for a long a time? Have you ever sought out professional help like therapy or medication?

I've suffered from anxiety thought many periods of my life, the majority of my childhood, when I went thought cancer around 13 years ago, and when I lost my mother to the same thing in 2018. I've always felt that what has had the best effect on me has been being able to openly talk about it with friends and family, sharing my feelings without being embarrassed, and similarly hearing about others.

I'm also a true believer in both therapy and medication, though you obviously need fo find a good match. With both. And on the "natural" side of things there are of course physical exercise and mindfulness or yoga that both actually did help more than I could have ever imagined.

I also find reading and playing the piano helps my brain focus 100% of it's efforts on something other than my own internal dialogue, which is helpful and healing, though you obviously need to be above a certain level to be able to enjoy that.


----------



## Pappaus (Jun 27, 2021)

Darren, glad you posted here. Depression hits so many of us each in its own uniques ways. I can’t pretend to know your pain but from my own minor depressions (seasonal affective disorder shows up every year on clockwork) I can tell you what works for me. Medication and exercise can push my depression away even if it is never banished. 

Sometimes just being heard is good and from the looks of this post, you are heard. Much as when we play our music to friends and families, we like being heard but do not always need comments or suggestions so feel free to take this suggestion or not - I would seek out a therapist. They come in all styles and price ranges and it could be worth your time. They may have some practical ideas to help or at the least, they will hear you.

Hope you are okay - Steve


----------



## Wedge (Jun 27, 2021)

ptram said:


> Dealt with depression all my life, and have learnt how to deal with it. Basically, I walk. Walk, and try to leave things behind me. It usually works. If not for anything else, at least for exhaustion.
> 
> Unfortunately, I’m living a moment when this is not very effective. The health of my parents is suddenly falling down, and I'm spending much time in hospitals. And my new neighbors have their air conditioner turned on all the night, so I've not been able to sleep since two weeks, with the perspective of being no longer able to live my own house.
> 
> ...


That sucks dude. I had a neighbor like that and got a fan to mask some of the noise. I then added a portable AC unit that vents out the window and ran both. The fan helped but by doubling up I started getting much better sleep. I recommend doing something similar.


----------



## InLight-Tone (Jun 27, 2021)

This is going to seem a bit left field per usual for my posts...

Medication is NOT the answer! Chris Cornell, Chester Bennington, both highly successful beyond measure, still killed themselves despite having it all, money, adoration, fame. Happiness doesn't come from material wealth or throngs of fans. In my opinion, medication makes things worse, and can contribute to suicide as they don't address the ROOT of the problem.

When the cells of the body are healthy and happy, the brain will be happy as well, as the body is it's dwelling place. What makes the cells happy? Short answer: The closer to Life, i.e., Sun/Light, Air, Water & Earth one is the happier are the cells. 

The cells NEED Sun/Light to function properly, the cells NEED to breathe and be oxygenated, the cells LOVE bathing in WILD water sources inside and out, the cells LOVE looking at Natural vistas and other soothing, harmonious settings.

In contrast, the modern day Media Composer spends his/her entire Life indoors, often in the dark looking at screens, rarely exercises especially outdoors, drinks gallons of coffee and alcohol, and deprives the cells of needed restorative sleep and rest. In turn, depression NATURALLY follows.

To make matters even worse, the diet of the composer is an abomination to the cells that crave fresh, A/Live foodstuffs full of Life/Force i.e., chiefly raw fruits, vegetables and nuts, the diet that conveys happiness to the cells.

In LIGHT of this, depression is not really a mystery, but a condition of the modern world that demands one slave away making money at all costs, especially at the cost of ones physical and MENTAL health. 

Being natural in an unnatural world isn't easy. But being depressed and lost is even harder. Remember, it is IMPOSSIBLE to be unhappy if your cells are happy. Daily get 30 minutes of Sun/Light on naked skin, go run a mountain, bathe in a river, and eat mostly raw vegan foods and depression is banished.

LIFE is a gift, spend it wisely...


----------



## el-bo (Jun 27, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Not sure where to post this, or even if I should post it.
> 
> Does anyone else suffer from depression here? I get days where I can’t even bare to fire up my computer and try to compose. Sometimes I load up Cubase and just sit there staring at it and all my equipment wondering why I’ve bought all this gear.
> 
> ...


Sorry for your loss, man! Must've been difficult. I'm sure it still is.

And yes, I suffer with depression. Have done on and off for about 25 years. In some ways it's worse than it used to (I often suffer anhedonic levels of joyless-ness), but I also, through various past experiences/ 'work' (Mainly via Vipassana meditation courses, breath work and yoga) I can more easily snap out of the deeper slumps. Also, much of my current depression is situational i.e based things for which there are practical solutions; at least at some point, perhaps.

Like you, the urge to 'disappear', self-destruct etc. is held off by not wanting to bring that kind of suffering on my family. But that just leaves a kind of in-limbo life.

The converse is that I do experience enough ups (not in a manic way) to have glimpses that the slumps are made worse by all the things I try to do to ameliorate the symptoms of said slumps, whether it be eating bad food, avoiding exercise, spending all time between the Internet, Xbox and Netflix. All of the above, even in a month-depressed person would lead to ill health, information overload, over-stimulation and fatigue.

So, yeah...creativity is the first thing that disappears. But if like me you are also jumping head first into avoidance, maybe these are also contributing to the inability to summon the creative or emotive energy necessary to make music.

One thing I do make sure to do is to play music every day. I am still a musician, underneath it all. At some point I also seemed to have signed up to be a composer, engineer, editor. MIDI-finesser, mixer, producer and mastering engineer, though perhaps not altogether willingly. These extra stages are at the moment just a means to an end i.e to get my music into other people's ears. But the joy I still get from loading up a sound and just playing, seems to completely disappear the moment I press 'Record'. So I've avoided doing so.

...Until yesterday...

Reading another thread about diminishing creativity, I swiped the idea to start doing cover versions of other songs/pieces. And with zero pressure to do anything other than one-to-one facsimiles (Like a painter with a paint-by-numbers book), I found the experience quite liberating (ironically) and enjoyable 

Not sure if any of this ramble is familiar or offers anything in the way of insights. The tl;dr version, assuming you are looking to try to explore ways of improving the situation, is perhaps start by working on the things that might have a negative mental-health impact, even if you weren't suffering from depression. It needn't be overwhelming. Small steps are key. And learning some form of mindfulness is an excellent tool.

I'll come back to post some videos from people who I think are instrumental (pun intended) in getting my ball rolling towards a brighter future. Perhaps you'd also find them helpful :2thimbs:


----------



## Markrs (Jun 27, 2021)

InLight-Tone said:


> This is going to seem a bit left field per usual for my posts...
> 
> Medication is NOT the answer! Chris Cornell, Chester Bennington, both highly successful beyond measure, still killed themselves despite having it all, money, adoration, fame. Happiness doesn't come from material wealth or throngs of fans. In my opinion, medication makes things worse, and can contribute to suicide as they don't address the ROOT of the problem.
> 
> ...


I wasn't sure if I should reply or not, as I am keen not to distract from Darren's post.

So whilst I agree on good diet, sleep and exercise. I do disagree on medication. It can help, with good scientific grounding in it. You are right that it doesn't address the root problem but can help alleviate symptoms, which can help give you space to improve and reduce the level of depression.

Medication can come with side effects and there are multiple types, so you have to work with a Doctor to ensure that you get the type and dose that is right for you.

I am not saying anyone should take medication for anxiety and depression, only that it is a medically proven option that should be considered with a medical professional


----------



## Markrs (Jun 27, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Reading another thread about diminishing creativity, I swiped the idea to start doing cover versions of other songs/pieces. And with zero pressure to do anything other than one-to-one facsimiles (Like a painter with a paint-by-numbers book), I found the experience quite liberating (ironically) and enjoyable


I am trying to write my own pieces of music with help of a teacher but it is very frustrating. If I am being honest I found doing mock-ups less stressful and easier to lose myself in, especially if I am mentally fatigued from work. 

I will keep working on doing original pieces, but I plan to mix it up with doing mock-ups as a way to learn techniques and to ensure I continue working at music rather than looking for new libraries to buy.


----------



## rgames (Jun 27, 2021)

You are not alone. Not by a long shot. Depression is probably the most underdiagnosed medical condition in the world. And it is a medical conditon like cancer or a broken leg. There is a rational scientific basis for it and it can be treated. But there is a stigma associated with it because people believed for a long time that it's a "force of will" or "personal toughness" problem. That's usually not true and that perception is changing. But it takes a long time.

First, just like cancer isn't necessarily related to external factors in your life, depression might not be related to external occurrences in your life. There are plenty of people with incredibly good lives who are depressed. And there are plenty of people with lots of reasons to be depressed but who remain perfectly happy. It's a brain chemistry problem that *can* be triggered by external factors but they're only that: factors. Some people have brains with chemistry that is prone to depression. Just like people have body chemistry that is prone to cancer. And your brain chemistry can change throughout your life, so depression can come and go in a way that is completely unrelated to what's happening to you in your life. Certanily it *can* be related, but not necessarily.

So point #1: If untreated, it's not necessarily under your control.

Second, because we understand a lot about it, depression can be treated. Modern medications are extremely effective for a lot of people, so give them a shot (if appropriate). Many of the newer meds have significantly reduced or eliminated the side effects that were common to older medications, so don't let 30-year-old info about side effects guide you. Lifestyle changes also certainly can have an impact. Whatever you do, remember that there is no one-size-fits-all cure for depression. Try different approaches. Odds are extremely high that one will work. However, most approaches take a long time to work. So commit to a course of treatment and stick with it for a long time. It might take a years or more.

So point #2: Perhaps with a bit of help, odds are extremely high that you can beat the depression.

rgames


----------



## easyrider (Jun 27, 2021)

I was suffering from work related stress for years which then triggered depression.

I was in desperate need to find meaning….

An apple tree blew down in the garden one day and the tree splintered in half so had to be cut down…my neighbour came to chop up the wood and cart it away for me….He suggested he dig up the tree roots and stump and explained it would leave a big hole and I would have to get some soil to fill it back up and put it back to grass…

He suggested he dig me a pond…I was like no just put it back to grass for me….Any way to cut a long story short I went into the house to make a cup of tea and on my return he was digging a massive hole for a pond with his JCB.

That was 3 years ago….the pond although it sounds daft saved me from my depression and relieved stress….I wasn’t aware of the work involved in keeping an eco system alive….water needs oxygen and circulation…banks need building and plants need planting then the wildlife will come…

Seeing the birds have a bath in the waterfall…hedgehogs taking a drink…newts and dragonflies breeding and laying eggs….had meaning….and I had with bare hands made it happen. It was magical to me….I could sit and stare at my pond for hours absorbing the sunshine, listening to the splash of water and connecting with nature in a profound way…







After the pond I moved on to growing my own fruits and vegatables….learning how to do it, nurturing the plants, feeding them and watching them grow….magical….

I quit my stressful job 6 months ago and have started to heal…

Getting out…getting into a natural environment is proven to help with anxiety and depression….don’t beat yourself up about not composing…don’t feel guilty abiut having the gear and not using it….get yourself out on walks….listen to the natural world…not music on an iPod….

Breathe in deeply to the count of 7
Exhale deeply to the count of 11

Good Luck x ❤️


----------



## Noeticus (Jun 27, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Not sure where to post this, or even if I should post it.
> 
> Does anyone else suffer from depression here? I get days where I can’t even bare to fire up my computer and try to compose. Sometimes I load up Cubase and just sit there staring at it and all my equipment wondering why I’ve bought all this gear.
> 
> ...


We LOVE YOU, Darren.

You are one of my favorite posters on this forum.

Can you say what would make you over-the-top happy right now?

Sometimes finding what would make you very happy helps illuminate the problem, as opposed to trying to figure out what makes you sad.


----------



## el-bo (Jun 27, 2021)

InLight-Tone said:


> This is going to seem a bit left field per usual for my posts...
> 
> Medication is NOT the answer! Chris Cornell, Chester Bennington, both highly successful beyond measure, still killed themselves despite having it all, money, adoration, fame. Happiness doesn't come from material wealth or throngs of fans. In my opinion, medication makes things worse, and can contribute to suicide as they don't address the ROOT of the problem.
> 
> ...


Left-field? Hmmm. I'm not sure I have a 'field', but I do identify with pretty much everything you say. The only issue I take is that not everything about depression can be mitigated by controlling our outer and inner environment. That being said, there is nothing to be gained by compounding incurable issues with certain avoidable behaviours.

But having first discovered the natural-hygiene movement and raw-foodism, back in the early 00's. I did get to experience both mental and physical health unlike I'd ever felt. Unfortunately, for various reason, not least of which was the mistrust of many of the leaders and the message of the whole raw-vegan movement. And while I did eventually come back to vegansim, I've yet to get back to that garden.

I did open an Instagram account a few months back, though. Other than a couple fo Nutritarian profiles, I'm mainly following raw-vegan accounts. My daily scroll through the incredible food posts, coupled with the start of watermelon season, and I might not be too far off at least high-raw.

Was it you who posted a Markus Rothkranz video in totally unconnected thread, some months back?

Are you RV, yourself?


----------



## el-bo (Jun 27, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I am trying to write my own pieces of music with help of a teacher but it is very frustrating. If I am being honest I found doing mock-ups less stressful and easier to lose myself in, especially if I am mentally fatigued from work.
> 
> I will keep working on doing original pieces, but I plan to mix it up with doing mock-ups as a way to learn techniques and to ensure I continue working at music rather than looking for new libraries to buy.


Really cool that you have one-on-one lessons. Frustration aside, do you think it helps?

The good thing about covers etc. is they afford the ability to make progress and get better at the mechanical side of production, without the added stress of it being in service of one's own original ideas.


----------



## el-bo (Jun 27, 2021)

rgames said:


> Second, because we understand a lot about it, depression can be treated. Modern medications are extremely effective for a lot of people, so give them a shot. Many of the newer meds have significantly reduced or eliminated the side effects that were common to older medications, so don't let 30-year-old info about side effects guide you. Lifestyle changes also certainly can have an impact. Whatever you do, remember that there is no one-size-fits-all cure for depression. Try different approaches. Odds are extremely high that one will work. However, most approaches take a long time to work. So commit to a course of treatment and stick with it for a long time. It might take a years or more.


My own experience with anti-depressants is such that I'd never go near them again. That doesn't mean I don't think they are useful in certain cases i.e in dealing with suicidal depression. Even then, it 'should' be within the wider context of ongoing, regular therapy, and with an aim to eventually improving the patients' lives to the extent they no longer need them. Without such a conscious process, they can easily just become a crutch, to which the body might just acclimatise - A 'new normal'.

Just my opinion, of course.


----------



## Markrs (Jun 27, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Really cool that you have one-on-one lessons. Frustration aside, do you think it helps?
> 
> The good thing about covers etc. is they afford the ability to make progress and get better at the mechanical side of production, without the added stress of it being in service of one's own original ideas.


I have only had 4 lessons so far (1st one was a free get to know each other session), but so far so good, especially as I am a tricky student as I find it hard to unlock my creative side. I can learn stuff all day long, though my knowledge is very scattered and disjointed, then applying that disjointed knowledge is very tricky. Makes it harder for Alex (@A.Heppelmann) who is my teacher as we are trying to find different approaches. Thankfully Alex is very patient, and happy to try different things are styles to help me (we are going for a more structured approach at the moment as I can get easily distracted). So Alex is doing me lessons and a listening plan each week!

At the moment I am also creating a simple song. I felt the need to go back to some basics so that I am working with the DAW. I am also thing about doing a version of HZ’s Time but to vary it so I am thinking more about instrumentation and working with different harmony and melody, but similar enough to use Time as a blueprint.

I also restrict the libraries I use as I am not bothered at this stage if they are imperfect. I will happily work with just GarageBand, Cubasis or Notion default samples when working on the iPad. On Desktop I am using Arturia Labs for key sounds (I have plenty of better ones including Pianoteq but Labs is quicker to work with) as you can quickly adapt them without having to think to much. Also using MODO Bass and Drums for the same reason. Strings will likely be BBCSO Pro but with just Mix 1 for simplicity.

I am finding the mix of having a teacher (I also have too much learning material, so having a teacher ensures I only focus on what I need to learn) but also stripping things back to basics including just doing a simple song a good way to get more comfortable with unlocking my creativity and reducing frustration and procrastination.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 27, 2021)

Go see a psychiatrist who knows what they're doing and get medication. Seriously. If it's the right treatment and done correctly, it's fantastic. There's absolutely no reason to be afraid of it either. And don't listen to weirdos who say silly shit about it. They got untreated issues of their own.


----------



## InLight-Tone (Jun 27, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Was it you who posted a Markus Rothkranz video in totally unconnected thread, some months back?
> 
> Are you RV, yourself?


That would be me. I am at least 75% year round. I am also a fulltime Rver so the above scenario about being in Nature is my Life year round. I migrate with the seasons...


----------



## Ivan M. (Jun 27, 2021)

Hey, though I haven't suffered from a crippling depression for an extended period of time, I did experience it, and I know how it feels. I would like to recommend you a book that was very helpfull for me: Feeling Good by David Burns. The title might not be the most creative one, but the advice and techniques are really good, it's CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy). I see now he has a new book with updates on the approach, but I didn't read it.

You didn't make a mistake of starting this thread, though one might feel _exposed_, it's not shamefull, not at all, there are many people who also suffer and they understand, and VIC folks are really nice. Talking helps a lot, if we talk about things we care about, it heals.

Muster your strenght and will to seek help or just some company when you need to.

Take care!


----------



## el-bo (Jun 27, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I have only had 4 lessons so far (1st one was a free get to know each other session), but so far so good, especially as I am a tricky student as I find it hard to unlock my creative side. I can learn stuff all day long, though my knowledge is very scattered and disjointed, then applying that disjointed knowledge is very tricky. Makes it harder for Alex (@A.Heppelmann) who is my teacher as we are trying to find different approaches. Thankfully Alex is very patient, and happy to try different things are styles to help me (we are going for a more structured approach at the moment as I can get easily distracted). So Alex is doing me lessons and a listening plan each week!
> 
> At the moment I am also creating a simple song. I felt the need to go back to some basics so that I am working with the DAW. I am also thing about doing a version of HZ’s Time but to vary it so I am thinking more about instrumentation and working with different harmony and melody, but similar enough to use Time as a blueprint.
> 
> ...


Seems like you've found the perfect teacher i.e simultaneously flexible, but also knowing when the reigns need tightening a little. And sounds like you have enough self-awareness (especially of perceived 'lack') that you'll be open to it all. 

And the self-limiting seems on-point also. Self-limiting needn't be incompatible with owning lot's of gear. If one has a fridge full of ingredients, but wants to eat a peanut butter and jam sandwich, then there is no decision-paralysis - One chooses the ingredients/tools/parameters for the specific meal/project. Of course, if you bought Analog Labs at the right version (V4, I believe) 6,000 presets is hardly spartan 

Fare thee well, on your journey. perhaps one day, we could start a cover-versions thread


----------



## Markrs (Jun 27, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Seems like you've found the perfect teacher i.e simultaneously flexible, but also knowing when the reigns need tightening a little. And sounds like you have enough self-awareness (especially of perceived 'lack') that you'll be open to it all.
> 
> And the self-limiting seems on-point also. Self-limiting needn't be incompatible with owning lot's of gear. If one has a fridge full of ingredients, but wants to eat a peanut butter and jam sandwich, then there is no decision-paralysis - One chooses the ingredients/tools/parameters for the specific meal/project. Of course, if you bought Analog Labs at the right version (V4, I believe) 6,000 presets is hardly spartan
> 
> Fare thee well, on your journey. perhaps one day, we could start a cover-versions thread


Indeed I have to v4 version so a little bit of a choice over load, but not so bad when using it just for keys.


----------



## rgames (Jun 27, 2021)

el-bo said:


> to eventually improving the patients' lives to the extent they no longer need them.


That's a common refrain. But it's counter-productive and based on perceptions that have been proven incorrect.

I have a good friend who takes thyroid medication. And she will for the rest of her life because her thyroid gland is basically non-functional now, and through no fault of her own. It's the genetic lottery. The meds are not repairing her thyroid gland to the point where she no longer needs them. Her thyroid gland is not going to suddenly come back to life; she needs the meds to correct what her body can't, and she will for the rest of her life. Likewise with antidepressants. Some people's bodies need them and always will.

I take cholesterol medication. And I will for the rest of my life. I've had high cholesterol since I was a kid. It's not dietary - I'm a very healthy eater. I do a hard-core workout every day and I watch my weight. And I have high cholesterol. When my son was born he got his usual blood work checks and I had them check his cholesterol. Guess what? Yep. High cholesterol, stright out of the womb. You think he should have watched his diet in there? Or do you think he should have been doing some kind of workout? No. It's genetic. He'll probably take cholesterol meds later in life as well. He's not going to be improved to the point of no longer needing them.

Lots of people take medications for their entire lives because they need them. There's no shame in it. You're not a failure because you need meds. Science has the power to improve peoples' lives. Take advantage of that fact.

Your statement has some of the "you have the power to stop it" mentality that is pervasive in many societies. It's not true. Depression is like hypothyroidism or high cholesterol. Some people's bodies require medical intervention to fix those conditions. We have such interventions and they're generally effective and relatively low cost.

So use them if you need them, even if you need them for the rest of your life.

rgames


----------



## doctoremmet (Jun 27, 2021)

rgames said:


> It's the genetic lottery


This. My DNA caused my heart disease. Not much I can do except take loads of pills to lower blood pressure, lower my heart’s BPM (tempo synced, my ICD has a floor of 50 BPM though) and take stuff that makes me pee a lot.


----------



## el-bo (Jun 27, 2021)

InLight-Tone said:


> That would be me. I am at least 75% year round. I am also a fulltime Rver so the above scenario about being in Nature is my Life year round. I migrate with the seasons...


I don't remember the context of your posting it, just the judder of the colliding of two very distinct world  

75% is probably a good maintenance-level for the long-term haul. While I do think there is a discernible difference at 100%, the potential pitfalls, necessary dedication and the plain arsing-around necessary to live such a life within our current world, makes light of the concept of diminishing-returns 

I'm subscribed to a few Youtubers who do the RV/van-life thing, and am definitely intrigued by it. Not sure I'm that resourceful, but I'd take it in an instant, over my current situation. Perhaps I could 'pm' you for some pointers, if I ever find myself seriously thinking about the option. No pressure, of course


----------



## el-bo (Jun 27, 2021)

rgames said:


> That's a common refrain. But it's counter-productive and based on perceptions that have been proven incorrect.
> 
> I have a good friend who takes thyroid medication. And she will for the rest of her life because her thyroid gland is basically non-functional now, and through no fault of her own. It's the genetic lottery. The meds are not repairing her thyroid gland to the point where she no longer needs them. Her thyroid gland is not going to suddenly come back to life; she needs the meds to correct what her body can't, and she will for the rest of her life. Likewise with antidepressants. Some people's bodies need them and always will.
> 
> ...



I am guilty of assuming that my advice would not be taken as akin to telling someone who needed life-saving medication to avoid it. I'd already said, in this post: 

#17
*"The only issue I take is that not everything about depression can be mitigated by controlling our outer and inner environment."*

That is my perhaps feeble attempt at making it clear that not all depression is borne of lifestyle or life experiences, and thus can't be cured by lifestyle changes. In that context, it didn't seem to need much exposition. In the post about anti-depressants, I should've made that clearer.

So, just to be clear: i am referring to depression that is an internal manifestation of external situations, that most of us are ill-prepared to deal with. It is a situation which unfortunately is cumulative and self-defeating, in the way that the very things that the sufferer could use to dig themselves out of a ditch, are the very things that being depressed stops, or at least tries to stop, one from doing. For these (i'd speculate, the majority) of depression sufferers, there are various ways to remedy the situation, and in the context of ongoing therapy anti-depressants can be used to get the first leg-up, while applying progressive techniques, making lifestyle changes and learning life coping mechanisms, to avoid the situation becoming a life-long sentence.

When I was first diagnosed with anti-depressants, I was already in therapy. At that point in time, happy pills weren't doled out like sweeties. it took me intimating to my therapist that I still wanted to kill myself, before they referred me to a specialist who performed various psychological testing. Only then did i get a prescription. Through the counselling and pills, i did get to a better place, before ending both. Some years later, I felt some warning signs and found I only need to tell my GP I was a bit depressed, and I left with a 'script.

And just in case I still need to clarify: I'm not talking about people who's depression is borne of an ongoing chemical imbalance, and for who drugs are always going to be part of life.

For many others, drugs will just become a way of covering up symptoms. But those symptoms are there to indicate something is wrong. I'd rather know something was wrong, even if I'm not currently 'in the right place' to fix it. Not advising others do the same.



> Your statement has some of the "you have the power to stop it" mentality that is pervasive in many societies. It's not true. Depression is like hypothyroidism or high cholesterol. Some people's bodies require medical intervention to fix those conditions


Some depression is like some other incurable situations. Some people's bodies will require constant, life-long medication. Didn't say otherwise.

I've already conceded that I should've been clearer. Your post is also based on assumptions, none of which I really need qualifying. The only part with which I take offense is your inference that I have some woowoo-like, apparently "pervasive" mentality, when in fact I have two and a half decades of experience trying many different things trying to battle the feeling that life just ain't really worth living.

Do most people "have the power to stop it"? Potentially, yes. With an adequate toolbox, and a conducive approach to the teaching of those tools, most will have the potential. 

But a drug isn't a tool. Paracetamol might make a hangover easier to deal with, but it'll do nothing about whatever it is driving one's alcoholism. Anti-depressants, within the context of learning those tools, is likely a good idea. 

Anyway...Probably done with this thread. Certainly not the place to turn into a battlefield. I will happily extend a welcome to anyone who wants to 'pm' me, either for clarification of something I've said, or just to talk/vent. 

All the best


----------



## Chris Harper (Jun 27, 2021)

Darren, I sent you a PM with more detail, but for the benefit of anyone who may be reading the thread, I will say that I have struggled with depression my entire life, as have many others in my family. I lost my mom a year ago. There is no adequate advice to “fix” depression, other than to say that there are people who care about you and that the fog will eventually lift again. There are certainly things that help, but depression is an extremely insidious disease precisely because it attacks our very ability and desire to do things to fight it. Keep fighting, my friend. You don’t see me, but I’m standing right next to you in the battle and fighting the same enemy.


----------



## Consona (Jun 27, 2021)

Vortioxetin + Alprazolam.


----------



## digitallysane (Jun 27, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Does this affect others here? What are your coping mechanisms?
> 
> Any help would be very appreciated.
> 
> ...


Therapy actually helps, if you can find the right therapist and the right approach.
Getting to know about yourself and about handling yourself is a good way to start fixing depression (not overnight). It's also very interesting.
I always felt it's like doing sports/going to the gym, but for emotions.


----------



## el-bo (Jun 27, 2021)

Just posting the videos I promised the OP.

Tim Van Orden is a long-time sufferer of depression, who has his own spin/take on the concepts of small goals/steps/wins. A lot of wisdom to be found in his videos:





And on the subject of mindfulness and meditation on the context of depression (Generally, taught from a Buddhist perspective, but non-secular really), I find Tara Brach to be a very calming and wise influence. As with Tim, she deals with many themes, not just depression. And despite the title, what's being offered is not a be-all technique (This'll become clear from the videos). It's just another tool for the toolbox.:


----------



## rgames (Jun 27, 2021)

el-bo said:


> I am guilty of assuming that my advice would not be taken as akin to telling someone who needed life-saving medication to avoid it. I'd already said, in this post:
> 
> #17
> *"The only issue I take is that not everything about depression can be mitigated by controlling our outer and inner environment."*
> ...


OK - maybe I didn't catch everyting you said. I'll admit this is a touchy topic for me because I know so many people who have suffered needlessly because they feel like they should be able to beat their depression with choice of food or activities or meditation or just "getting over it". Sometimes, yes, but the truth is that medications are vastly more effective than any of those approaches because a lot of depression is, literally, like hypothyroidism or high cholesterol: a function of body chemistry which you often cannot control without medications.

A lot of societies (including the US) have an approach to mental health that places too much emphasis on the idea of being able to control it without medication. Some even deny that mental health has a factual medical basis and treat it entirely as a personal choice, more like a religion than a medical condition. In the US, the way the country has stigmatized mental health has a lot to do with issues like homelessness, gun violence and loss of productivity.

If we could just get rid of those stigmas then we could improve the lives of a lot of people, potentially with larger impact than research on cancer or diabetes. We're headed there, it's just slow going and a big part of it is in managing the various messages that weigh in on the issue.

Best,

rgames


----------



## Tim_Wells (Jun 27, 2021)

@Zedcars - *Thank you* for your courage to share your depression! It's so eff-ing important to bring this sh!t out into the light of day!! I've absolutely had my own issues with depression and anxiety and still struggle with it. I 

I agree with everyone who said to seek out help. I'm personally not big fan of medication, if it can be avoided. But if it saves someone from a very dark place, then I'm all for it. 

There are a lot of tools available. I truly hope you find peace, happiness, and joy. Sending much love to you!


----------



## Leigh (Jun 27, 2021)

It's great that you are bringing this up, Darren.

About 10 years ago, after going as far as I could with psychotherapy, I started an anti-depressant which I found very helpful. The medication treated the depression caused by my brain chemistry. It allowed me to have normal emotional ups and downs and that normalcy helped me immensely with composition and performance.

In the last three years, I've been feeling depressed again and I think this depression is situational and not biochemical. I think this new depression is my normal response to the state of the world now and adjusting my medication is not appropriate for me in this case. The way I manage it is with, family activity, playing music with others, yoga, and running outside but it has taken a toll on my composition output.

I will echo some others and encourage you to find a professional to talk to.

My thoughts are with you.

**Leigh


----------



## el-bo (Jun 27, 2021)

rgames said:


> OK - maybe I didn't catch everyting you said. I'll admit this is a touchy topic for me because I know so many people who have suffered needlessly because they feel like they should be able to beat their depression with choice of food or activities or meditation or just "getting over it". Sometimes, yes, but *the truth is that medications are vastly more effective than any of those approaches* because a lot of depression is, literally, like hypothyroidism or high cholesterol: a function of body chemistry which you often cannot control without medications.
> 
> A lot of societies (including the US) have an approach to mental health that places too much emphasis on the idea of being able to control it without medication. Some even deny that mental health has a factual medical basis and treat it entirely as a personal choice, more like a religion than a medical condition. In the US, the way the country has stigmatized mental health has a lot to do with issues like homelessness, gun violence and loss of productivity.
> 
> ...


I get the frustration, and I understand your knee-jerk reactions, but please stop talking in such definitives as, "*the truth is that medications are vastly more effective than any of those approaches". *Rarely are things so black & white; I'd argue even less so, with regard to mental-health. 

Anyway, looks like we might be able to find some common ground. I'll try to respond, tomorrow, and see if I can present my arguments more clearly 

I'd like to answer to the rest


----------



## noises on (Jun 27, 2021)

Hi Darren, 

Over the next few years the benefits of micro-dosing psilocybin will be well documented, and the routine use of mushrooms and the corresponding benefits will become main-stream when dealing with depression, anxiety, burnout, terminal illness, and heck, even addiction,...as well as wealth of other emotional challenges. Why not start with one of thousands of youtube videos that will help guide you towards a better mental state, with little or no side effects. 
​


----------



## Trash Panda (Jun 27, 2021)

Hey Darren,

I’ve had chronic depression my entire life, but never realized it until my mid twenties. I thought it was normal to not feel much in the way of positive emotions. That happiness, joy, fun were things people just pretended to experience because that’s what we’re trained to do. Worse yet, when I DID genuinely experience positive emotions, they usually only served to heighten the crush of negative emotions that accompanied bad events large and small.

After having a nervous breakdown at work due to stress in my mid twenties, I finally saw a doctor and had my eyes opened. Turns out some of us draw the short straw in the generic lottery where our brain chemistry doesn’t work quite right.

In my case, by serotonin levels were too low and that was the primary driver of my depression. I thought it was just normal to be sad or angry all the time up until then. Doctor prescribed some Zoloft to help with the brain chemistry and walked me through some lifestyle changes and therapy options to help with the rest. A few days after starting the Zoloft, I started feeling “normal”. Positive emotions came a lot easier. Exercise actually released endorphin rushes I could feel. Interacting with other people was more tolerable and sometimes even enjoyable.

Medication alone won’t “fix” it, but it’s a solid foundation to build on. Exercise releases endorphins that improve your mood outside of the obvious health benefits. Sunshine helps with vitamin D and mood. Bodies of water emanate negative ions that improve mood and electronics tend to emanate positive ions that tend to make mood worse. Heavily processed foods tend to be calorie dense and full of salt and added sugars that make you want to eat more, leading to obesity, which negatively impacts brain chemistry further.

This doesn’t all mean it’s time to drastically change every aspect of your life, but to reinforce the fact that there’s scientific reasoning behind these being positive things that can combat depression. First step is to talk to a professional and get their educated opinion.

Feel free to PM me if you ever want to talk more about this. Same goes to anyone else battling depression. It’s a monster, but one that can be beaten.

Matt


----------



## hessproject (Jun 27, 2021)

InLight-Tone said:


> This is going to seem a bit left field per usual for my posts...
> 
> Medication is NOT the answer! Chris Cornell, Chester Bennington, both highly successful beyond measure, still killed themselves despite having it all, money, adoration, fame. Happiness doesn't come from material wealth or throngs of fans. In my opinion, medication makes things worse, and can contribute to suicide as they don't address the ROOT of the problem.
> 
> ...


This is straight up dangerous advice. The same type of rhetoric that led to people like Steve Jobs sticking to alternative medicine for cancer treatment and directly leading to death. Yes, diet and exercise and various natural remedies can help manage the condition, and almost all medical professionals would highly encourage them as well as part of treatment. But there are well researched biological causes, many of which can be assisted greatly with the help of medication. That is a conversation to be had with a doctor or licensed professional


----------



## jmauz (Jun 27, 2021)

Hey bud. I'm so sorry you're suffering. 

I've dealt with depression and anxiety all my life. It's a daily struggle. Some days are great, others terrible. 

There's been a lot of good advice here. Just remember mental health management is different for everyone. What works for one person won't work for another.

For me, the biggest help has come from:

1. Low-dose medication
2. TMS therapy
3. Sober lifestyle
4. Vegan diet
5. Consistent exercise
6. Daily meditation
7. Weekly psychotherapy

Good luck, feel free to reach out anytime. In fact, I insist that you do.


----------



## Trash Panda (Jun 27, 2021)

hessproject said:


> This is straight up dangerous advice. The same type of rhetoric that led to people like Steve Jobs sticking to alternative medicine for cancer treatment and directly leading to death. Yes, diet and exercise and various natural remedies can help manage the condition, but there are well researched biological causes, many of which can be assisted greatly with the help of medication. That is a conversation to be had with a doctor or licensed professional


As much as I'm loathe to give any credence to hippie bullshit, there are some scientifically-backed nuggets of wisdom in his post (get sunshine, exercise, bodies of water, reducing stressors in your life, etc.) but the reasoning behind them is certainly hokum at best.

The truth is oftentimes found in the middle of extremes.

Medication AND some lifestyle changes can do wonders for depression.

Chris Cornell and Chester Bennington had long histories of substance abuse problems and it's likely turned to those for temporary relief from depression instead of seeking qualified professional help that would have helped them cope in a healthier manner.


----------



## jmauz (Jun 27, 2021)

To those of you debating the medication pros and cons, please start another thread. This kind lad is looking for help and this back and forth bullshit isn't providing any.


----------



## doctoremmet (Jun 27, 2021)

jmauz said:


> To those of you debating the medication pros and cons, please start another thread. This kind lad is looking for help and this back and forth bullshit isn't providing any.


Thanks. ❤️ -


----------



## Tatiana Gordeeva (Jun 27, 2021)

@Zedcars you took the right first step: to reach out! But that's just a first step. I know several people who have depression / anxiety (they're related) at different levels. From "feeling down" for a few days to bipolar in full psychotic episode!

Don't believe peddlers of BS advice. This is a serious medical problem that needs medical attention. For some it runs in the family and hence is genetic-based, chemically. There are 500+ different neurotransmitters in our brain and we usually treat the 7 major ones.

Medication under proper supervision will GREATLY help. Long gone are the horror stories about it. Meds are now fast, very effective. They just work! So does counselling and/or psychotherapy. Healthy habits, sleep, walk, relaxation, deep breathing (yes!!), etc. do help A LOT! I've seen miracles happen in matters of weeks when all are used in combination.

Our brain didn't change much in the last 10000 years but our world did! The pace of life as we live it today is not a good match for our hunter-gatherer's brains 

YOU ARE NOT ALONE IN THIS!! *Just get medical advice asap.* Best, Tatiana

Added: We, musicians as most "artsy types", are sensitive animals, subjects to self-doubt, facing criticism, lack of support, etc. This is the bane of all creators, in all fields. It is TOUGH to dare to be different, especially in our world of conformity. It takes a toll to a certain degree *on all of us! *Be proud of it, don't believe the naysayers and doubters, they never created anything new. They just don't know!


----------



## Tatiana Gordeeva (Jun 27, 2021)

Oh, and Darren, *the earth did not stand still today*  It is still rotating normally. It is another chance to go and seize the day, as best you can, just for the sake of it. 

Gort says hi!


----------



## Geoff Grace (Jun 27, 2021)

I’m so sorry to hear about your struggles, *Darren. *I hope you’ll be able to create a happier life with some of the possible solutions mentioned here. We care about you.

I want to throw vitamin D into the mix of solutions being offered. I realize that everyone is different and what works for one may not work for all. You may or may not be deficient in this vitamin, but low vitamin D levels have been linked to depression. I think it’s worth looking into at least. More here:









Depression and Vitamin D Deficiency


Vitamin D deficiency may be a risk factor for depression. Learn how to prevent vitamin D deficiency.




www.healthline.com





I also find meditation to be helpful for a great many things.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## gsilbers (Jun 27, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Not sure where to post this, or even if I should post it.
> 
> Does anyone else suffer from depression here? I get days where I can’t even bare to fire up my computer and try to compose. Sometimes I load up Cubase and just sit there staring at it and all my equipment wondering why I’ve bought all this gear.
> 
> ...




oh man, definitely the gear stuff and libraries I don't end up using. Sometimes its like imposter syndrome.

Also getting inspired is hard sometimes. and the mess of cables and gear that I "should" be using doesn't help.
I do find that all white studio that Andrew Huang has appealing. extremely simple and distraction free. but the procrastination on getting there is too much.

So the most obvious of course is to see a therapist you can talk to. I know the stigma but sometimes a third party ground level person you can just talk to once in a while helps. And helps w the music and creative thought because other things where getting more attention and now get in the way of being creative. 

And pills. if you need and Rx by a doctor. Something like welbutrin to both depression and ADHD which seems to help with motivation. there are many of these type of pills maybe a psychotherapist will know better. Some reddit threads talk more about it but obviously a doctor will know better and can't get them w/o Rx.

I take nootropics like L-Tyrosine and L-Theanine. And going to try Phenibut which seems to help enjoy music. Racetams and that culture is a bit much as several I've tried haven't worked. or worked beyond one time due to tolerance but still see tons of posts of people who loved them and effects I didn't like.

I also try to see YouTube videos to get inspired to do certain track or styles. and also an instrument not tied to the computer like my acoustic guitar, where I can just get more in touch with my soul through music if that makes sense. It doesn't translate too well in a daw song but still helps.

And don't forget simple basic stuff. Get enough protein and sunlight as well as being around creative things. maybe don't see your phone for a few hours after waking up and other things to not hinder your creativity. Its a tough road. if there is not immediate project I struggle a lot. I want to do some elektro swing but don't even do more than 2 bars and already bored.

Another random thing I do is I put something soothing and good in my iPhone like Star Trek next generation so some part of mind would be distracted while the other just plows through whatever I need to do. I don't actually watch the phone all the time, just certain times when my mind reaches a creative block, I turn to see where they at and and keep doing the work I was doing. I watch Star Trek, Frasier, cheers, and others where the loudness stays the same. no surprises and all soothing.

And the most common trick, found in "The Artists Way" book is to just DO something. doest matter what, but KEEP DOING IT. Every day just free write without any thought to it. just plow through something and slowly you'll get hooked. Maybe just do a piano line that sounds ok, then try to orchestrate it like a real orchestra but don't think realism or work on a template, or work on drums etc but more importantly just do it and do it every day. once your mind is inside something the mental roadblocks will start to disappear.

.


----------



## MarcusD (Jun 27, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Does this affect others here? What are your coping mechanisms?


Yes.

This year in particular has been quite tough for me. Coming to the end of 2 months getting CBT sessions.

Sometimes a little change in perspective is all you need to help clear the fog so you can see a little clearer where to walk. Its easy to get wrapped up in the negatives and completely ignore everything else around you that's positive.


----------



## Chris Harper (Jun 27, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Oh, and Darren, *the earth did not stand still today*  It is still rotating normally. It is another chance to go and seize the day, as best you can, just for the sake of it.
> 
> Gort says hi!



I don’t usually get the feeling the earth is standing still, but rather that it is just moving much faster than I am.


----------



## Scottyb (Jun 27, 2021)

What a wonderful community of people here! Depression is such a funky mess when you realize you’re in it or if it hits you like a brick wall. 

All I can say is, is thank God for kind and supportive people. Sunshine and consistent exercise are also pretty powerful in the equation to finding yourself on the other side of it all. 

There’s so much good advice here from everyone. Hang in there and I hope you find a good mix of the things that work best for you!


----------



## bill5 (Jun 27, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I agree on good diet, sleep and exercise. I do disagree on medication. It can help, with good scientific grounding in it. You are right that it doesn't address the root problem


The word "sometimes" should be between the words "that" and "it." 



> Medication can come with side effects and there are multiple types, so you have to work with a Doctor to ensure that you get the type and dose that is right for you.


That cannot be overstated. Many people think "anti-depressant meds" are all the same thing. They aren't. There aren't just diff brands but diff types that work differently. It's a complex thing. Some can help a lot. Some can actually make things worse. 



> I am not saying anyone should take medication for anxiety and depression


I am. But again the key word: sometimes. It all varies with the particular person and situation. Meds aren't some magical pill for most. Some people need them considerably, some a little bit, some not at all...some people simply have a bad situation in their life (or past) that they need to deal with vs trying to "cure" it with a happy pill. Frankly I suspect this describes many people. But there are some who do have a physical situation (aka the infamous "chemical imbalance") that meds can help a lot.


----------



## bill5 (Jun 27, 2021)

InLight-Tone said:


> This is going to seem a bit left field per usual for my posts...
> 
> Medication is NOT the answer! Chris Cornell, Chester Bennington, both highly successful beyond measure, still killed themselves despite having it all, money, adoration, fame. Happiness doesn't come from material wealth or throngs of fans. In my opinion, medication makes things worse, and can contribute to suicide as they don't address the ROOT of the problem.


This isn't even my opinion, but a proven fact: such a sweeping generalization is wrong and frankly irresponsible to say. Again, it depends on the person and specifics.




> When the cells of the body are healthy and happy, the brain will be happy as well, as the body is it's dwelling place. What makes the cells happy? Short answer: The closer to Life, i.e., Sun/Light, Air, Water & Earth one is the happier are the cells.


My short answer to that is this is alt-med hippy nonsense. 




> The cells NEED Sun/Light to function properly, the cells NEED to breathe and be oxygenated, the cells LOVE bathing in WILD water sources inside and out, the cells LOVE looking at Natural vistas and other soothing, harmonious settings.


So is this. For example, most cells in the body (i.e. beneath the skin) NEVER get ANY "Sun/Light." I won't even hit the low-hanging fruit of "wild water sources" or "looking at natural vistas." Apparently you think single cells have eyeballs? 



> In contrast, the modern day Media Composer spends his/her entire Life indoors, often in the dark looking at screens, rarely exercises especially outdoors, drinks gallons of coffee and alcohol, and deprives the cells of needed restorative sleep and rest. In turn, depression NATURALLY follows.


Which you "know" because.....



> To make matters even worse, the diet of the composer is an abomination to the cells that crave fresh, A/Live foodstuffs full of Life/Force i.e., chiefly raw fruits, vegetables and nuts, the diet that conveys happiness to the cells.


And again.

Frankly your post in general was incredibly naive, incorrect, and again grossly irresponsible. Suggesting that all depression can be cured with more sunlight, lots of fruits and veggies, and singing "we are the world" on a mountaintop is absurd.


----------



## bill5 (Jun 27, 2021)

rgames said:


> You are not alone. Not by a long shot. Depression is probably the most underdiagnosed medical condition in the world. And it is a medical conditon like cancer or a broken leg.


Again: sometimes. Sometimes it is a medical condition; sometimes not. It is a VERY complex and varied thing.


----------



## pinki (Jun 27, 2021)

Is it possible to keep this thread non-confrontational? If you belive the pharma industry is the answer or if you belive alternative approaches are the way, please in a thread where someone has bravely spoken, lets not attack each other?


----------



## bill5 (Jun 27, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Go see a psychiatrist who knows what they're doing and get medication. Seriously. If it's the right treatment and done correctly, it's fantastic.


Agreed. HUGE "if" though. i.e. 

- IF meds are even advisable
- IF it's the right med
- IF it's the right dosage

It's a very, very tricky thing. That's why anyone saying "this is what you should do" by definition doesn't know what they're talking about. There is no one size fits all.


----------



## bill5 (Jun 27, 2021)

pinki said:


> Is it possible to keep this thread non-confrontational? If you belive the pharma industry is the answer or if you belive alternative approaches are the way, please in a thread where someone has bravely spoken, lets not attack each other?


I will speak out against anyone who thinks they have the answers for any individual, never mind ALL individuals, esp those they don't even know, and dispenses advice accordingly. Having or even condoning any such attitudes again is IMO severely irresponsible. It is not an "attack." It is debunking myths where people's health, perhaps even lives, are at stake.

FYI "the pharma industry" isn't always the answer. Nor is it the root of all evil. And again: it depends on the specifics. You are free to believe otherwise.

I wish zedcars and anyone else dealing with this the very best.


----------



## AlexRuger (Jun 27, 2021)

I think this whole medication-or-not/diet/sunlight/etc talk can be summarized quite simply:

-Start with the low-hanging fruit. If you haven't been exercising, try and do so. If your diet has been bad, try and fix it. If you haven't been sleeping, try and address that. If you've been avoiding something, try and face it. If you've been lying to yourself, try and face it. Etc. You may just find that one or more of these things was just what you needed. Often times, this is in fact the case.
-If you try any of the above and literally _can't _or are doing so but aren't getting anywhere or any better, perhaps medication should be considered. Ideally start first by seeing a therapist, getting their opinion, and then they might refer you to a psychiatrist. If you do end up taking meds, keep going with the therapy -- the two together is much more effective than just one on its own.
-Use the "leg up" offered by the meds/therapy to help address any and all _applicable _stuff from the first point, and integrate those changes in a lasting way. Perhaps nothing in that list was problematic and you actually _only _needed medication. Who knows.
-Over time, perhaps try going off the meds. You might be able to, you might not.

"Depression" is used very loosely in colloquial speak. You might be medically depressed, or you might just be getting shit sleep (if you can afford it, get a sleep study -- sleep apnea is nearly indistinguishable from depression).

Whatever you do, good luck and don't be afraid to reach out. I've been where you are many times before.


----------



## bill5 (Jun 27, 2021)

Exactly. Thank you.


----------



## Trash Panda (Jun 27, 2021)

I would only trust a medical prescription if issued by a primary care doctor who ran lab work and can identify which hormones are outside of the acceptable levels. More harm can be done by taking the wrong thing based on anything other than scientific blood work.


----------



## Futchibon (Jun 27, 2021)

Before covid, lower back pain was the most requested reason for a visit to a doctor. Now it's mental health; so many people are more understanding of it now, which can only be a good thing.

I've been up and down since covid, and the Doctor recommended exercise, especially swimming, and social interaction. It's great that you posted here, and you can see how much support you have. Even better would be if you were to speak to people in real time, either via phone or video chat if you can't do it in person.

Thanks for sharing


----------



## Futchibon (Jun 27, 2021)

InLight-Tone said:


> This is going to seem a bit left field per usual for my posts...
> 
> Medication is NOT the answer!


Unless you're an MD, this is irresponsible advice.


----------



## Rasoul Morteza (Jun 27, 2021)

I don't know how I read the title "Compression..."  please continue


----------



## Arbee (Jun 27, 2021)

Like most here I can only bring personal experience to share, with whatever benefit that may or may not contribute to your circumstances.

While I've experienced several periods of mild depression way back from childhood, I've only had one serious encounter with the "black dog", about 12 years ago. Without going into what triggered it (and it can be anything), my recovery had three elements - exercise, Vitamin D supplements, and some insights from a very knowledgeable and wise professional counsellor. I've kept an almost daily and password protected journal ever since and have thankfully been OK so far. The benefit of purging/venting/dumping into this journal on tough days is far greater than I anticipated. But it's a very dark place and great to see everyone is here to provide some support. I would have been open to medication, but thankfully the other steps made it unnecessary, though it still took two years to stabilise.

Good luck with your recovery and do let us know how you're going.


----------



## InLight-Tone (Jun 27, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> Unless you're an MD, this is irresponsible advice.


"Never rely on getting the answers to LIFE, from those who spend the majority of their time AWAY from it...


----------



## rgames (Jun 27, 2021)

AlexRuger said:


> I think this whole medication-or-not/diet/sunlight/etc talk can be summarized quite simply:
> 
> -Start with the low-hanging fruit. If you haven't been exercising, try and do so. If your diet has been bad, try and fix it. If you haven't been sleeping, try and address that. If you've been avoiding something, try and face it. If you've been lying to yourself, try and face it. Etc. You may just find that one or more of these things was just what you needed. Often times, this is in fact the case.
> -If you try any of the above and literally _can't _or are doing so but aren't getting anywhere or any better, perhaps medication should be considered. Ideally start first by seeing a therapist, getting their opinion, and then they might refer you to a psychiatrist. If you do end up taking meds, keep going with the therapy -- the two together is much more effective than just one on its own.
> ...


I'm sure you're trying to be helpful but, as stated above, this is terrible advice.

I don't have to ask if you're qualified to prescribe a treatment because you're obviously not: you have done so with insufficient information. Nobody who is qualified to do so would take that approach.

To the OP and anyone else who comes across this thread: consult a professional.

But rest assured that there are options that are very effective.

rgames


----------



## MarcusD (Jun 27, 2021)

There is no “one size fits all” approach when it comes to treating mental health.

The first step is always the hardest, acknowledging there IS something wrong. If you found the courage to do that, talk to a doctor, ask to be referred to a therapist. 👍


----------



## Zedcars (Jun 28, 2021)

Hey everyone,

Firstly I want to apologise as I’m not sure I’m going to have the mental energy to reply to everyone individually. I have dyslexia so even reading it all has been a challenge. It doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate all of your kind messages of support as I really do!

Secondly (or maybe this should have gone first!!!) I want to say I’m overwhelmed by the selflessness and kindness of everyone on this forum. You don’t know me, and I don’t know you. Behind the avatar and ‘unreality’ of the forum it’s sometimes easy to forget we are all just ordinary people living out our lives somewhere on this big spinning ball in space. I’m so grateful. It has given me positivity and light this morning, even though it’s dull and grey outside.

I also had some good news in my inbox yesterday. An illustrator and fellow musician has agreed to collaborate with me on my children’s musical idea, although we’ve decided to scale it back to an album release to begin with as a full scale musical is asking a bit much, especially with my current state of mind. I think I need a project like this, where I am working with someone else to help motivate me.

So, although I can get very negative if I sit and stew over things, I find creating and writing gets my mind off those negative voices and takes e somewhere else.

I’ve taken on board what you’ve all said, well much of it (there’s a lot to take in) and I think there’s some very good advice here. I should probably talk to my GP and try to get a referral for some counselling. The waiting list is very long unfortunately. I might have to go private.

Many thanks and love to you all (if that’s not too weird a thing to hear from a stranger on the internet!).


----------



## Mr Frodo (Jun 28, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> I should probably talk to my GP and try to get a referral for some counselling.


I was in a very similar position to you some time ago (and have had recurring bouts of moderate depression for years), and found that simply talking to my GP felt like a positive, helpful first step. He prescribed medication, which didn't work out in my case - I found exercise (long, fast walks) more effective, but your experience might vary. But by talking to a stranger about my situation, telling a professional that I had a problem that I wanted to overcome, I felt as if I was at last trying to take charge of the situation.

As you've said, you've been given a lot of helpful advice here. I don't have anything different to add beyond what's been said, but I wish you every success.


----------



## Alchemedia (Jun 28, 2021)

hessproject said:


> The same type of rhetoric that led to people like Steve Jobs sticking to alternative medicine for cancer treatment and directly leading to death.


I don't disagree with you, however, I want to clarify Jobs had pancreatic cancer, which is a death sentence. His treatment or lack thereof was not the cause of his death.


----------



## Bear Market (Jun 28, 2021)

Hello Darren,

Thanks for sharing. I know from experience that it is not always easy to talk about these things.

If there is one thing I want you to take to heart, it is this: it can and will get better! Medication works! Don't shy away from getting professional help (see your doctor, that is). 

Like many before me has pointed out in this thread, a clinical depression stems from a chemical imbalance in the brain. It is not necessarily something you can "power through" by sheer force of will or exercise, sleep, and diet etc. (even if these things can be helpful as well).

So I encourage you to see a professional and, again, please know that the condition is treatable and it will get better!

All the best.


----------



## AlexRuger (Jun 28, 2021)

@rgames and @Henrik B. Jensen

I feel like you read my post as "don't take antidepressants" because literally everything I wrote is, in my experience and the experience of literally all of my friends with whom I've talked about mental health (which is a lot), absolutely par for the course amongst mental health professionals. Like, what part of my post are you so up in arms about -- the part where I say "try and do therapy and meds at the same time, because that can be super effective?" That's mental health 101, literally every therapist I have ever seen has stated that. Seems to me that the only way you could have an issue with what I said is if you think that the first and only course of action for any sort of mental health deficiency should be antidepressants, which is just plain fucking wrong and dangerous as hell.

I very literally said "try the obvious stuff and if that doesn't work or you aren't able to, consult a professional." That is not terrible advice. It's sensible, and for _many _people, is sufficient. 

Let me put it this way:

Let's say you literally never exercise (not assuming that's the case with you, OP, just using this as an example), and then you start; one of three things will happen:
1) You'll feel a lot better
2) You will feel neutral or worse
3) You won't even be able to get yourself to exercise

Options 2 and 3 are very solid foundations for getting an antidepressant prescription, and in my experiences this is very literally the kinds of things mental health professionals look into whether or not someone should be on antidepressants. 

In fact, questions like that are _precisely _what helped me discover my sleep apnea. I was in therapy for years, never really got anywhere. Always ruminating, always anxious, always down, lost connection to any semblance of joy years ago, slowly kind of losing my grip on reality. I was given all sorts of diagnoses: ADHD, anxiety, depression, bipolar 2, etc.

I eventually saw a doctor about maybe getting some antidepressants, and he asked about my diet/exercise/sleep. Diet was near impeccable, exercise happened a commendable amount given the circumstances, but I mentioned that I hardly ever felt rested. Long story short, turns out I had sleep apnea; we addressed it, and the vast, vast majority of the reasons I had been in therapy for years just evaporated. Much of what I was going through was identical to what OP wrote, or worse. I'm a skinny guy and had absolutely zero reason to think I had sleep apnea. I don't snore when I sleep (partners confirmed it). And yet, there it was, absolutely destroying my brain and my quality of life for _years, _and if that doctor hadn't mentioned sleep, I'd have never figured it out, as I had no reason to suspect it.

Had I just been given antidepressants, I'd have simply enabled myself to run in place a bit longer, but I'd have been jumping onto a train that can be a very bumpy ride in its own right and can be quite difficult to get off of -- and in my case, due to the fact that the meds would not have addressed the root cause, that ride would not have been worth the trouble or financial burden.

Let's not ignore the very real side effects, the sometimes months it takes to find the right med and dose, the fact that they can stop working (and the associated anguish), and difficulties with withdrawal. People who suggest we hand them out like candy tend to ignore how absolutely devastating these aspects of them can be, and can themselves lead to worsening of depression or suicide. Furthermore, even therapy _when not necessary _can cause serious mental health disorders of their own. I've been on both sides of this -- seeing therapy as one of the most valuable things in my life, and something that did incredible damage. Boy, let me tell you, untangling yourself from an incorrect diagnosis once it's a part of your self-image is a fucking doozy.

This shit is no joke, and even the best tools we have at our disposal to address depression are clumsy at best. 

Hence:

Simply _looking into the possibility of _any lagging physiological stuff first is a sensible step. At worst, you're setting yourself up to have the best fighting chance possible if you do choose to go on meds. We are all just brains in bodies, after all. If there's nothing _to _address because your physical health is solid, that's an argument for meds; and if you're literally unable to get yourself to exercise (or even get out of bed), that _too _is an argument for meds. 

So, to be absolutely fucking clear, because I know nuance is lost on like 99% of the people on the internet: I am not against antidepressants. In fact they sound like they might be a good way to go for OP. But they are not and should never be the _very first thing, _and they are _not without risk, _and very literally speaking from experience, what OP is saying is _scary _close to my own experiences, which (at least in that instance; I'm back in therapy now for unrelated reasons and am currently considering antidepressants once again) turned out to be sleep apnea. Another friend of mine went through something very similar and discovered a serious vitamin deficiency. This stuff happens.

If you still disagree with me, I have no idea what to tell you because clearly we're living on completely different planets.


----------



## el-bo (Jun 28, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Firstly I want to apologise as I’m not sure I’m going to have the mental energy to reply to everyone individually. I have dyslexia so even reading it all has been a challenge. It doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate all of your kind messages of support as I really do!
> 
> ...


Great news about the collab 

With regard to counselling, perhaps don't rule out online services. I have no personal experiences, though I'd assume that given it's all about interaction with other humans, there are chances that certain combinations won't 'click'. Just the same, you may find someone with whom you do feel comfortable enough to open up. The beauty of such an arrangement is the potential immediacy of access, rather than having to negotiate the potential stressors involved with even getting to physical appointments.


----------



## el-bo (Jun 28, 2021)

AlexRuger said:


> @rgames and @Henrik B. Jensen
> 
> I feel like you read my post as "don't take antidepressants" because literally everything I wrote is, in my experience and the experience of literally all of my friends with whom I've talked about mental health (which is a lot), absolutely par for the course amongst mental health professionals. Like, what part of my post are you so up in arms about -- the part where I say "try and do therapy and meds at the same time, because that can be super effective?" That's mental health 101, literally every therapist I have ever seen has stated that. Seems to me that the only way you could have an issue with what I said is if you think that the first and only course of action for any sort of mental health deficiency should be antidepressants, which is just plain fucking wrong and dangerous as hell.
> 
> ...


So many times, this! Thank-you


----------



## el-bo (Jun 28, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Alex,
> 
> OP needs to be checked by a professional ASAP for establishing if he’s indeed got a depression and if so, how severe it is. This must always be the first recommendation to anyone who gives indications that he might be suffering from a depression. There is literally no time to waste because of the link between major depression and suicide listed in my post above.
> 
> In no way should OP be given the advice to first spend time looking at his exercise, his diet, his sleeping habits etc., and only then, if this hasn’t helped, get an appointment with a professional.


While I'm not going to make sweeping generalisations, it is certainly true to say that suicide just isn't a natural progression for even those who are really suffering deeply.

If a sufferer does manage to get themselves to a doctor, it is important that the doctor follow protocols to determine the severity of the problem and assess whether the sufferer is a danger to themselves or others. Blankety prescribing drugs in every eventuality is not the answer, at least not as the first response.


----------



## GNP (Jun 28, 2021)

Sorry I can't help much. I also have my own depressions. Hang in there mate. You're not alone for sure.


----------



## doctoremmet (Jun 28, 2021)

jmauz said:


> To those of you debating the medication pros and cons, please start another thread. This kind lad is looking for help and this back and forth bullshit isn't providing any.


^


----------



## el-bo (Jun 28, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I’m sorry but who is recommending “blankety prescribing drugs”?


Actually, you're right. My apologies. In trying to advocate for avoiding knee-jerk reactions, i ended up doing exactly the same to you.


----------



## el-bo (Jun 28, 2021)

> jmauz said: https://vi-control.net/community/goto/post?id=4859102
> To those of you debating the medication pros and cons, please start another thread. This kind lad is looking for help and this back and forth bullshit isn't providing any.





doctoremmet said:


> ^


What you and certain others might feel is just "back and forth bullshit", is to many of us an important aspect of this discussion, and very much relevant to the topic at-hand.

If you have an issue with such posts, then perhaps block me/us. If you feel we are in breach of forum rules, then report me/us. And in this particular case, given the sensitivity of the topic, I will happily defer to the wishes of the OP should he wish for this part of the conversation to be taken elsewhere.

Please take this in the spirit intended. It is meant with total respect.


----------



## dcoscina (Jun 28, 2021)

rgames said:


> You are not alone. Not by a long shot. Depression is probably the most underdiagnosed medical condition in the world. And it is a medical conditon like cancer or a broken leg. There is a rational scientific basis for it and it can be treated. But there is a stigma associated with it because people believed for a long time that it's a "force of will" or "personal toughness" problem. That's usually not true and that perception is changing. But it takes a long time.
> 
> First, just like cancer isn't necessarily related to external factors in your life, depression might not be related to external occurrences in your life. There are plenty of people with incredibly good lives who are depressed. And there are plenty of people with lots of reasons to be depressed but who remain perfectly happy. It's a brain chemistry problem that *can* be triggered by external factors but they're only that: factors. Some people have brains with chemistry that is prone to depression. Just like people have body chemistry that is prone to cancer. And your brain chemistry can change throughout your life, so depression can come and go in a way that is completely unrelated to what's happening to you in your life. Certanily it *can* be related, but not necessarily.
> 
> ...


Very accurate post. My father is a neuroscientist and while his life work was in weight disorders (anorexia, obesity) he has many colleagues who study depression. It is a biological condition if we are talking chronic depression rather than a temporary state which most people can experience at times in their lives. People with chronic depression are much the same as people with type 1 diabetes- they are often born with it but it might not be active until a traumatic event triggers it. Brain chemistry is then be altered which is why medication can and often helps even though there can be side effects. A good doctor should be able to change medications if the person finds some adverse effects until they land on one that is right for them. 

exercise and good dietary habits are never a bad thing but for serious depression, the chronic kind, they are as effective as giving someone an apple to cure their cancer. Ideally the meds are to get the person out of that deep pit of despair so they can look at some natural methods like exercise to improve their quality of life.


----------



## doctoremmet (Jun 28, 2021)

el-bo said:


> What you and certain others might feel is just "back and forth bullshit", is to many of us an important aspect of this discussion, and very much relevant to the topic at-hand.
> 
> If you have an issue with such posts, then perhaps block me/us. If you feel we are in breach of forum rules, then report me/us. And in this particular case, given the sensitivity of the topic, I will happily defer to the wishes of the OP should he wish for this part of the conversation to be taken elsewhere.
> 
> Please take this in the spirit intended. It is meant with total respect.


Ok. So was my request. But I’ll go ahead and ignore. Proceed!


----------



## el-bo (Jun 28, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> exercise and good dietary habits are never a bad thing but for serious depression, the chronic kind, they are as effective as giving someone an apple to cure their cancer.


There is an old joke, that is often told in various non-PC forms. The clean version would go something like:

_The Joker: How do you stop a person from drowning?

The Jokee: I don't know! How *do* you stop a person from drowning?

The Joker: Take your foot off their head._

Often, we can observe that the best way to solve a problem is to stop doing the things that are causing the problem, in the first place.

I'll caveat this again by saying that I'm not suggesting that what I'm about to say will apply in all situations. I'm certainly not saying that all depression stems from negative lifestyle factors. And these are my opinions that I'm sharing.

The problem as I see it is that these lifestyle factors often cannot be viewed as separate from the condition, due to a self-defeating negative loop of behaviours. Similar to how a fire that is started by a single spark can quickly be extinguished without fuel, so too can (I'd guess, in many cases) a depression started by a single trigger be extinguished without the fuel of compounding negative behaviours.

This self-defeating spiral can start with a numbing of appetite, such as might be a normal unconscious reaction to a bereavement, for example. In an otherwise healthy person, not eating for extended periods of time won't necessarily be unhealthy (Often, the opposite). But processing heavy emotions can be very energy-depleting. If that energy and nourishment is not replaced, other effects can occur. Some find that reduction in appetite goes hand-in-hand with sleeplessness and restless-ness at night. This can lead to falling out of a natural circadian rhythm. Combined with lower energy, the sufferer perhaps no longer feels to get out of bed and stops going out for their normal, daily walk (The dog has to make do with the garden).

As this person no longer wants to leave the house, they feel there's no need to get dressed and perhaps takes less care of personal hygiene. This makes leaving the house even more of a potential stressor. So the weekly shop doesn't get done, which at this point doesn't really matter as this person doesn't really have the motivation to cook wholesome, nourishing food. So food starts arriving at the house from various delivery establishments. It's loaded with fat, salt and sugar and not much else. This further compounds issues with sleep, low-energy and listlessness etc., every bit of which has a further negative, depressing and debilitating effect.

What started out as a very upsetting, albeit normal part of our existence has now become a full-blown depression, as a result of this self-defeating cycle, which can now take on a life of it's own self-perpetuation, long after this person has got over the initial grief/loss.

In such a case, imo, it seems absurd not to start from the point of trying to peel back these extra compounding layers - These hangers-on, that came along for the ride.

Of course, some people will need that leg-up that medication can provide, but by no means does that follow for everyone. And yes, if someone even pauses when their doctor questions, "Have you ever considered taking your own life?", I'd suggest they be referred to therapy and put on medication.

Please remember that the OP already brought up the issue of suicidal thoughts, in his original post. The way he describes it and his subsequent post, perhaps in my opinion only, suggest that this is not where his head is at. And as someone who has suffered bouts of depression (even occasionally very deep) for 25 years, but have had no suicidal ideation since the first year/occurrence, I would prefer to see a much more nuanced discussion. Fortunately, it seems to be getting that way.

So, to go back to the start, I believe it can be effective in many cases to just make the opposing lifestyle changes to what one is currently doing.

Every one of our lifestyle habits has the power to change brain chemistry for the positive or negative. Positive lifestyle habits are our birthright and should be considered as a very important part of health and recovery. In some cases a safety-net is advised.

ETA: I don't see chronic as being a necessary distinction. These patterns can go on for years, but then be almost turned around on-a-dime, when the patient finally finds their rock-bottom, finds their motivation (their 'why), and starts making the appropriate changes.


----------



## el-bo (Jun 28, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> I don't disagree with you, however, I want to clarify Jobs had pancreatic cancer, which is a death sentence. His treatment or lack thereof was not the cause of his death.


More than that, I have over the last two decades read many accounts and testimonies from those who have put their cancer (also, other serious conditions) into remission, following similar protocols. In Jobs' case, from what I can gather, he lived an extra eight years after his diagnosis, where the normal prognosis would've been two.

My family has lost many friends to cancer (two, in the last year). In all cases, standard treatment was used. Neither is a panacea, and perhaps a combination fo the two would be useful.


----------



## dcoscina (Jun 28, 2021)

Like many things, depression should be taken on a case by case basis. Seeking professional help is generally a very good first step. from there the person can be presented with some opinions.

we can provide our own personal insights here or a sympathetic shoulder to lean on, but I’d think it’s best to seek help from people trained in this field, whether it’s psychiatrists, cognitive therapists or whatnot. Family doctors are a bit of a mixed bag. I had one who was a complete idiot and had the most vacuous advice (I learned he was sued for malpractice years later, long after I’d moved to another GP).


----------



## el-bo (Jun 28, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Like many things, depression should be taken on a case by case basis. Seeking professional help is generally a very good first step. from there the person can be presented with some opinions.
> 
> we can provide our own personal insights here or a sympathetic shoulder to lean on, but I’d think it’s best to seek help from people trained in this field, whether it’s psychiatrists, cognitive therapists or whatnot. Family doctors are a bit of a mixed bag. I had one who was a complete idiot and had the most vacuous advice (I learned he was sued for malpractice years later, long after I’d moved to another GP).


I agree on these things being taken on a case-by-case basis, and that often seeking professional help is going to be an important part of the process. I happen to believe that therapy would generally be useful for most if not everyone, depressed or not.

When it comes to looking for opinions on ways to treat the issue, (Not talking of drugs here, which can only be professionally prescribed), I'd tend towards widening the net. Obviously, it's important to avoid overwhelm, and to not jump into everything, all at once. But I personally believe that being able to get a birds-eye view of all the little tweaks one might make that can compound and improve the day-to-day experience of depression, be it cold-showers, forcing a smile, getting an app to remind us to drink a glass of water, eat some fruit, get some fresh-air etc. etc. etc. is really useful. And these are the kinds of seemingly-insignificant things that might get missed in a professional consultation, but are abundant in the testimonies of countless people who have used them in their progress towards 'normality'.

Anyway, I think I've said most of what I want to say. So, I'll leave y'all to it.

My best wishes to the OP and anyone else who is suffering from this, or any other debilitating ailment(s)


----------



## Tice (Jun 28, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Not sure where to post this, or even if I should post it.
> 
> Does anyone else suffer from depression here? I get days where I can’t even bare to fire up my computer and try to compose. Sometimes I load up Cubase and just sit there staring at it and all my equipment wondering why I’ve bought all this gear.
> 
> ...


Some types of depression aren't based on logic, and you can't 'solve' them by thinking through them. Some are based on how your body deals with dopamine and serotonine levels, the peptides that make you feel good about things. If your body absorbs these peptides too quickly, or doesn't make enough of them, you'll inexplicably feel as though nothing is worth doing. And this can be periodical, like tides or seasons.
If that's the case with you, and it might be, then it's not something you did, or didn't do. But there are medications that can help, though you'll need to talk to a psychologist.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 28, 2021)

I get the feeling that people who say you can - or mainly should strive to - figure out and overcome depression by thinking hard about it, reflecting your past or current situation, enjoying the nice weather outside, getting on some silly diet and having positive thoughts don't really understand depression. And it seems that there's still some of that social stigma resonating in these viewpoints - you're kind of supposed to "do it on your own", possibly avoid acknowledging that something's not right (God forbid!), and "pull yourself up by the bootstraps", because we all have bad days and everyone has their cross to bear.

And I really don't believe that everyone who has this kind of perspective is trying to be judgemental or condescending or anything, but that's just how people have been primed to react to mental health problems.

In any case, if there truly is a case of a difficult, chronic depression - and only a licensed professional can establish that - then chances are, all your goodwill, positive vibe and inspirational quotes will do nothing. You're so deep down in a dark tunnel that everything you think, feel or perceive is warped inside a self-sustaining system that will do anything to not make you see the reality. Depending on how bad it is, some people truly have no realistic perspective for snapping out of it without help. You _can't_ do what's right. That's the whole problem in the first place. It's like telling a disabled person that they should just simply keep trying and eventually stand up from that wheelchair and run.

And that's where therapy and medication come in. It's incredible how people turn themselves around after finally getting on the right treatment. And every time, it's the same thought that immediately springs to mind: if you only did this years ago!!

Medication doesn't "change" you or make you dependent either - not in a chemical sense. Maybe you depend on them to feel better for a while, perhaps even your whole life. But who the heck cares? If you're heavily depressed, without medication you're absolutely addicted to feeling incredibly miserable every day of your life, so which of those two dependencies would you rather choose?

They're not "happy pills" either. They don't make you happy or have some magical effect where suddenly you start enjoying life. But what they do is they lift that fog that previously clouded your soul for so long that you didn't even realize anymore how different you've become. With time, things become thinkable that previously weren't, and some things where you were forced to react in a certain way eventually stop being so fatally hardwired. It opens the door one has to go through to begin with the actual work - all the stuff that people tell you you should do, instead of letting a professional help you. Once you establish that pattern of interrelation and positive feedback loop between what the medicine does to the brain and the experiences you're able to make because of that, it becomes an upward spiral of positive reinforcement. Learning to live again. So ideally, if everything works out like it should, you finally become _yourself _again.

It takes time anyway. Typically 2-3 months are needed until the messengers in the brain are sufficiently "calibrated", and it can be 6 months or more until you suddenly start noticing a real, substantial change. People often give up too easy, or don't take things seriously enough. You can't skip taking your shit for several days or do it on some random on/off basis. Those things aren't meant to be quit cold turkey either, you don't change dosage without consulting your doctor, and you don't do stupid shit like "tapering off" by opening a capsule, counting single beads of the substance and taking them in without the capsule so that your gastrointestinal system destroys the active agent before it can do anything ... and then there's the people who complain about all kinds of horrific effects they experienced when being on medication, but they forget to mention the other shit they were doing - drinking, self-medicating with other stuff, doing drugs, etc. ...

Getting on meds doesn't substitute the personal work and healing and all that, and I think for many people a good conversational therapy is the second part of this puzzle. But they put you in a position where you can atually try in the first place.

And there's just no reason to ponder or wait. Life is too short for bullshit. You don't owe anything to anybody, start enjoying your life, finally. You can always go back to being miserable if for some reason some undefined *bad thing* everyone seems to insinuate really happens.


----------



## mybadmemory (Jun 28, 2021)

This thread has me thinking two things:

1. It’s heartwarming to see how many people here open up about their own problems to support the OP. It seems like almost every avatar and name I’ve come to recognize on this forum is in here. <3

2. Which brings me to my second thought. Are we all here sufffering from depression and anxiety? Does composing and sample hoarding attract us troubled souls, or are they part of creating us?

Second thought is partly said with a smile of course, though I was seriously surprised at how many of us here actually seem to have personal experiences around this topic. Which is, come to think of it, also a little heartwarming.


----------



## MarcusD (Jun 28, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> Are we all here sufffering from depression and anxiety? Does composing and sample hoarding attract us troubled souls, or are they part of creating us?



Tend to think it comes down to the individual and their life experiences. Some want to create things purely because they love to create. Others want to find a better form of expressing how they feel, because it helps them "get things off their chest. I'm very much the latter. However, I think most people are a mix of both, to some degree


----------



## Loïc D (Jun 28, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> Are we all here sufffering from depression and anxiety? Does composing and sample hoarding attract us troubled souls, or are they part of creating us?


Nope, I’m happy as a clown 
I don’t care much about my talent since I never had a once of it.
Call me happy idiot


----------



## Double Helix (Jun 28, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> 2. Which brings me to my second thought. Are we all here suffering from depression and anxiety? Does composing and sample hoarding attract us troubled souls, or are they part of creating us?


You might be onto something here, @mybadmemory--it may well be the particular demographic that visits a Web site like VI-C


MarcusD said:


> Tend to think it comes down to the individual and their life experiences. Some want to create things purely because they love to create. Others want to find a better form of expressing how they feel, because it helps them "get things off their chest. I'm very much the latter. *However, I think most people are a mix of both, to some degree*


^^ this ^^
Without getting too froo-froo in the woo, I think we are ALL inter-connected: "We are star dust" etc.
Perhaps Tennyson said it best in "In Memorium": "I am a part of all that I have met."


----------



## nolotrippen (Jun 28, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Not sure where to post this, or even if I should post it.
> 
> Does anyone else suffer from depression here? I get days where I can’t even bare to fire up my computer and try to compose. Sometimes I load up Cubase and just sit there staring at it and all my equipment wondering why I’ve bought all this gear.
> 
> ...


Lots of great advice already. What has worked for me is Zoloft (generic) and far more importantly, God and His Word. And my wife Christiane. Also exercise. Did Krav Maga for 10 years and that really focuses me.


----------



## Batrawi (Jun 28, 2021)

I'm gonna share those here in case you didn't watch them already. And if you did, then just watch them again as a reminder! Some really priceless advices by Cory (what a wise gentleman!)


----------



## dcoscina (Jun 28, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I get the feeling that people who say you can - or mainly should strive to - figure out and overcome depression by thinking hard about it, reflecting your past or current situation, enjoying the nice weather outside, getting on some silly diet and having positive thoughts don't really understand depression. And it seems that there's still some of that social stigma resonating in these viewpoints - you're kind of supposed to "do it on your own", possibly avoid acknowledging that something's not right (God forbid!), and "pull yourself up by the bootstraps", because we all have bad days and everyone has their cross to bear.
> 
> And I really don't believe that everyone who has this kind of perspective is trying to be judgemental or condescending or anything, but that's just how people have been primed to react to mental health problems.
> 
> ...


Preach brother.


----------



## TrojakEW (Jun 28, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Not sure where to post this, or even if I should post it.
> 
> Does anyone else suffer from depression here? I get days where I can’t even bare to fire up my computer and try to compose.


There is big connection between our body and our mind. If you mind loose the fight the body will follow. If you body lose your mind will follow. 

So you need to take care of both. How to do that and what is affecting both parts? You may be surprised but what you eat have greatest impact. Proper food make huge difference. You need to give to your brain and your body what they need.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32308009/
https://sustainabledish.com/eat-meat-improve-your-mood/
https://kellybroganmd.com/red-meat-for-your-depression/

Yes you can find studies that tell you opposite but ask yourself first what do you eat now and how do you feel now. So if your current diet not working you have to change it. What I mean to change it drastically. I'm 99.99% carnivore about year and half and I'm not going back. Best decision that change my life and my health completely.

Do not just read studies but listen to people and their story.
https://meatrx.com/category/success-stories/depression/


----------



## rgames (Jun 28, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> exercise and good dietary habits are never a bad thing but for serious depression, the chronic kind, they are as effective as giving someone an apple to cure their cancer


Certainly true. There is a wide range of disorders that can be considered "depression". There's a strong body of research that shows the more severe it is, the less likely it is to be affected by lifestyle changes (like exercise). So while medication isn't necessary for all types of depression it's often a go-to choice because it's more effective when the diagnosis is unclear.

Another important fact about the advantage of meds is in the occurrence of relapses. While exercise and other lifestyle changes can be as effective as meds in treating initial bouts of mild depression, meds are more effective when relapses are factored in.

It's complicated and there's a huge body of research that requires a full-time commitment to keep up. And that's why assistance from a professional is so important. Knowing people with depression is not the same as treating people with depression. Knowing people who treat people with depression is also no qualification.

Would you take violin lessons from someone who doesn't actually play but *knows* a lot of violinists? Of course not. That's absurd.

rgames


----------



## Tim_Wells (Jun 28, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> Which brings me to my second thought. Are we all here sufffering from depression and anxiety? Does composing and sample hoarding attract us troubled souls, or are they part of creating us?


Just one opinion, but I think the creative process plays havoc with our emotional frailty and can exasperate depression and anxiety. Creating in isolation can compound it further. 

Much of my adult life I was involved in making music for a living. But for a long period, I went back to school and got my accounting degree and CPA. Then I worked in state government for years. During that time I felt more stable, emotionally secure, and even happier than I did during the music days.


----------



## bill5 (Jun 28, 2021)

noises on said:


> Hi Darren,
> 
> Over the next few years the benefits of micro-dosing psilocybin will be well documented, and the routine use of mushrooms and the corresponding benefits will become main-stream when dealing with depression, anxiety, burnout, terminal illness, and heck, even addiction,...as well as wealth of other emotional challenges.


Please don't state opinion as fact. This is far from conclusively proven.



> Why not start with one of thousands of youtube videos that will help guide you towards a better mental state, with little or no side effects.


Because relying on youtube videos for medical advice for severe/chronic depression is foolish, to put it kindly.


----------



## bill5 (Jun 28, 2021)

jmauz said:


> To those of you debating the medication pros and cons, please start another thread. This kind lad is looking for help and this back and forth bullshit isn't providing any.



You can't be serious. Discussing the pros and cons of anti-depressant meds in a discussion about depression is "bullshit?" Excuse you? How does that make any sense?

If someone's car wasn't shifting correctly, would you tell people discussing transmission oil to "start another thread?"


----------



## bill5 (Jun 28, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> With all due respect, this is completely irresponsible advice.


No it isn't.



> If you’re having a depression, DO NOT start out by trying to “fix” it yourself with exercise etc. You absolutely have to be examined by a specialist first, i.e. a psychiatrist.


No you don't "have" to. Though don't take that wrong, certainly there's nothing to lose.

But again and one more time: depression is complex and circumstances vary - a LOT. Please people, stop trying to lump all depression under one umbrella. For example there's a difference between having a "spell" of depression and it being chronic. Also some people are depressed because of something physically off. Sometimes that can be fixed by changes in diet and exercise. Sometimes not. And some are depressed because of circumstances in their life; there is no "chemical imbalance" and resorting to drugs would be counter-productive. And so on.


----------



## bill5 (Jun 28, 2021)

Bear Market said:


> Like many before me has pointed out in this thread, a clinical depression stems from a chemical imbalance in the brain.


SOMETIMES.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 28, 2021)

Darren,

First I want to add my voice to the chorus and wish you good luck dealing with your depression. It’s a bear. There’ve been enough good ideas here that you can pick and choose from-anything I’d add would just muddy things up.

However, as someone who’s dealing with recent grief and loss, it struck me that you might be dealing with the same. You mentioned the loss of your father-recovery from that sort of loss doesn’t have a solid timetable.

Also, I was interested in the cheering effect of a project moving forward had for you...it sounded familiar. Personally, I fear stasis more than almost anything and I try like hell to keep pushing forward. I’m like a shark in that I gotta keep swimming or die. I hope you’re able to continue to push forward with your present project, then the next and the next. Perhaps you’ll continue to be cheered!

You mentioned that you have suicidal ideation-to me, that’s the definitive indication that it’s time to seek professional help.

Good luck! If I can do anything for you, please PM me. I don’t know much of anything, but at least I’m old. 😉


----------



## jon wayne (Jun 28, 2021)

Zed, so many opinions in this thread. My opinion is based on a basic mental breakdown I had , due to rock bottom depression and MAJOR anxiety. Without boring you with a lot of detail, medication and time pulled me out. There is a online book entitled “At last, a life”. When you are staring at your gear and can’t create a note, read the short book. I really did want to end it all, but I somehow made it through and wrote some of my best songs after that. Depression is an illness, not an attitude problem. Get on a good med, may take trying a couple, then let it go while your brain heals. Trying to fix yourself will send you down the wrong road. It’s gonna be fine, trust me.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake (Jun 28, 2021)

Darren, I'm not equipped to deal with your issues as are most if not all of the others here, but like most of them I'll reach out and express my care as well.

I've had mental problems, of recent too; COVID quarantine certainly didn't do any good for me. It's been a long road to recovery but I've managed to pull myself out of the shit - and I had the support of professionals to do it. Turns out I was lucky enough not to need any drugs either, so who knows what the case will be with you; let the shrinks give their input regarding that. And I believe that's who you need to see because their techniques can make a difference, they certainly did for me, so there's that much evidence.

You should get the ball rolling soon as who knows how long it'll take to get referrals, and the faster you get help, the faster you'll have your life back together and be getting back to writing and playing music you love.

Hang in there, and feel free to reach out to me as well.


----------



## bill5 (Jun 28, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> it’s best to seek help from people trained in this field, whether it’s psychiatrists, cognitive therapists or whatnot. Family doctors are a bit of a mixed bag.


Unfortunately, therapists/psychologists/psychiatrists are too. It's been said that seeing such a person is like having your car worked on by a monkey with oven mitts on. It's not a crack on the people or the profession, but again how complex and tricky it all is. This is not like setting a broken arm or prescribing treatment for malaria.


----------



## bill5 (Jun 28, 2021)

TrojakEW said:


> There is big connection between our body and our mind. If you mind loose the fight the body will follow. If you body lose your mind will follow.
> 
> So you need to take care of both. How to do that and what is affecting both parts? You may be surprised but what you eat have greatest impact. Proper food make huge difference. You need to give to your brain and your body what they need.
> 
> ...


More nonsensical rubbish. People and "their story" are anecdotal and of minimal value at most. Something isn't true just because it's on the internet. 

PS: you are not "99.99% carnivore." Human beings are by definition omnivores, and if you think you can get all the nutrition you need from meat, you are on the road to poor health. This is only backed by decades of countless studies and actual real evidence. 

More to the point, thinking "depression is all about what you eat" for most is grossly myopic at best, though of course diet can make a real difference for some and should not be ignored. 

What should be ignored is "eat nothing but meat and your depression will magically vanish."


----------



## szczaw (Jun 28, 2021)

bill5 said:


> PS: you are not "99.99% carnivore." Human beings are by definition omnivores, and if you think you can get all the nutrition you need from meat, you are on the road to poor health. This is only backed by decades of countless studies and actual real evidence.


You can get all nutrition you need from animal products (meat, milk, eggs) derived from animals raised naturally. There are studies out there that support any kind of diet.


----------



## TrojakEW (Jun 28, 2021)

bill5 said:


> More nonsensical rubbish. People and "their story" are anecdotal and of minimal value at most. Something isn't true just because it's on the internet.
> 
> PS: you are not "99.99% carnivore." Human beings are by definition omnivores, and if you think you can get all the nutrition you need from meat, you are on the road to poor health. This is only backed by decades of countless studies and actual real evidence.
> 
> ...


Based on your reactions above it looks like you are too agressive, kind of like you have some problems too. Calm down, I'm not here to convert anyone. Advice I give him is based my own experience and results.

How much time did you invest in nutrition study? You can get all nutrients from animal products. Actually you can get all nutrients only if you consume animal products othwerwise you need to take suplements.


----------



## Arbee (Jun 28, 2021)

A quiet plea about the way this thread seems to be heading. Despite the great empathy and personal stories being shared with the very best of intentions, it's a very sombre and potentially serious topic. So can we please not a) pretend to be experts unless we can reference the respected medical journals we've written for on the subject and b) not turn it into a pissing contest. Just saying.....


----------



## cygnusdei (Jun 29, 2021)

No one has mentioned this, so here. The story goes that after the premiere of his Symphony no. 1 bombed (probably had something to do with under-rehearsal and drunk conductor), Rachmaninov went into a severe bout of depression for 3 years, unable to compose at all. What finally helped was daily hypnotherapy for 4 months by his physician friend Nikolai Dahl, after which he was able to compose the award-winning Piano Concerto no. 2, and the rest was history.


----------



## stixman (Jun 29, 2021)

If you don’t already working with Nature is very therapeutic, I couldn’t imagine not connecting with nature watching plants grow being outdoors feeling the soil...tuning to the seasons...best of luck.


----------



## Jotto (Jun 29, 2021)

Been there. Part of depresion (at least mine) Is that when it hits i dont do anything to get out of it ...for a long time. Depression feeds on more depression. It does not want to leave you. You must leave IT and that can be difficult if you see the depression AS yourself. You are at least able to adress it. You have pointed your finger at it and said «There you are. I can see you and you are not me» That is a good sign. My advice is: Talk to someone. A friend and/or a doctor. Maybe medication for some months could help you. It certainly helped me. Search for Eckhardt Tolle and depression on YouTube. Depression can really take over your life. Dont let that happen.


----------



## bill5 (Jun 29, 2021)

TrojakEW said:


> Based on your reactions above it looks like you are too agressive, kind of like you have some problems too.


If calling out misinformation is "aggressive," then guilty as charged. As for my problem, it's people touting opinions, anecdotal evidence, or outright false information as facts. I'm sure it was with the best of intentions, but that doesn't make it OK or something that should slide by.



> Calm down, I'm not here to convert anyone. Advice I give him is based my own experience and results.


You may not mean it that way, but advice is in a way an invitation to "convert." And you aren't just giving advice, you're stating things as facts which aren't. If you want to eat nothing but meat, go for it. That doesn't mean it is or should be touted as a great idea for others. 



> How much time did you invest in nutrition study?


More than you, it would appear. For example:



> You can get all nutrients from animal products.


No you can't.



> Actually you can get all nutrients only if you consume animal products


No you can't.



> othwerwise you need to take suplements.


This is an "it depends" thing. The evidence continues to grow that many supplements are worthless and can even be harmful in high amounts. There are some which have shown value though, like fish oil, Vitamin D, etc. But thinking one can substitute supplements across the board for anything under the sun has no basis in truth. Further considerations should be made if someone is on medication, as some can reduce their effectiveness.


----------



## szczaw (Jun 29, 2021)

Organ meat is PACKED with available nutrition without plant antinutrients that block absorption. Heme iron is the easiest to absorb and is found in red meat only. There are people who can't absorb iron in any other form. B12, is an essential nutrient that's almost exclusively found in animal products.


----------



## bill5 (Jun 29, 2021)

3DC said:


> I would suggest people eat natural unprocessed food our ancestors used to "gather" and "hunt".
> That is meat, eggs, berries, non starchy green vegetables, nuts and seeds. If you are in shape you can add tubers like potatoes, carrots, celery. You can make really tasty and healthy food with olive oil, GF butter, lard and tallow.


Sounds like a healthy diet generally. I would add that something being processed or not is not indicator of how good or bad it is for you (esp as that's such a broad term...most food is processed in some way). 



> stay away from packed meat, seed based oils and margarine.


? "Packed meat?" You want people to raise all their own animals?  Also some seed-based oils are quite healthy, like canola oil and flaxseed oil. 



> I stay away from dairy products since most of them are pasteurized with added sugar.


?? Pasteurized is a good thing. I get wanting to stay away from added sugar though.


----------



## Zedcars (Jun 29, 2021)

Just want to clear a few things up. I eat healthily. 2 apple a day, grapes, banana, broccoli , carrots, salmon, brown bread. No desserts, no sweets, no chocolate. Dried fruit and nuts. Seems kind of comical me saying what I eat to fellow composers but it came up. I don’t smoke or drink or take illegal drugs.

THE BAD STUFF:
Reasons for my depression (self diagnosis)? I was bullied at school and bullied in 2 previous jobs. 3 girlfriends cheated on me so I find it hard to trust women or even look anyone in the eye. I _can_ trust women but it takes me way longer than it normally should so I find it impossible to form relationships. I’m resigned to being single for the rest of my life. Very low opinion of myself and low self esteem which I’ve had since I was about 11 I suppose. I have very little confidence. My father passed last year. We’ve all lost someone close I’m sure. It’s still hard though knowing I can’t go and see him.

I have eczema so sometimes I scratch my face and I think that’s what people dislike so much that they feel they have to comment on it (like I don’t already know!). I don’t really get it bad on my face anymore as I know how to look after it but the mental effects remain.

I basically wake up every day and without fail my brain says “god, I wish I was dead.” I go to the bathroom, look at my face and say the same thing. When I’m at work my colleagues and the work itself are a distraction and I don’t think that way. If I’m on my own, for example a pee break then I’ll start thinking like that again.

In 2001 I found out my then girlfriend was cheating on me I tried to kill my self in an industrial cardboard compactor but couldn’t reach the button from the inside so failed. Tried starving myself but only lasted 4 days before I collapsed.

Immense pressure, bullying and ostracisation at work pushed me to attempt suicide in 2007 by hanging but I didn’t know how to do it and the cord wouldn’t hold me. Tons of shitty things happened to me there. Too many to mention.

Have wanted to flip my car off the road multiple times but didn’t have the guts and didn’t want to harm others.

I’m not a religious person so cannot turn to a god for help and strength.

THE GOOD STUFF:
Now my sister has 2 kids (8 year old boy and 4 year old girl). They love playing and spending time with me and I love seeing them too. I’m not miserable around them and my inner child emerges. I could not cause them pain by finishing myself off. It would just be so unkind and selfish of me. So although I wish I could make everyone forget about me and disappear, I’m not intending to do that. I want to see them grow up. I don’t want to bring shame on the family.

I also want to finish a big music project I started 26 years ago and work on now and again.

So, I’ve got people that care about me and things I want to achieve.

I’m sure there are many people far worse off. I know I am very lucky in lots of ways.

Thank you once again for the overwhelming kindness in this thread and on this forum.


----------



## Niah2 (Jun 29, 2021)

It takes a lot of courage to come out like you did even if it's just on an internet forum. We are all rooting for you.


----------



## bill5 (Jun 29, 2021)

So sorry to hear about everything you've dealt with or are dealing with. Given everything you've said, it might indeed be good to see a therapist and try to talk about some of these things...sometimes just talking about them out and getting them out in the open vs all bottled up can help a lot. You obviously have a lot to deal with. Nothing to lose at least (and if the first therapist you try you don't care for, try another...not all therapist/patient matchups work). Best of luck!


----------



## Tice (Jun 29, 2021)

One thing I reckon is super important to keep in mind is that a brain that's in a state of depression cannot be trusted to accurately assess it's own chances for improvement. The nature of depression is to think lowly of your chances, whether your chances are low or not. This means that when it comes to considering possible roads out of depression, you have to rely on others at times. And to do that, you need to be able to remind yourself that your own brain can lie to you. It can be convinced about things that are absolutely false. If you can accept that, it can become easier to try possible paths to improvement despite your brain coming up with a plethora of arguments for why it'd fail.
There is freedom in knowing that you know nothing.


----------



## Noeticus (Jun 29, 2021)

Darren, what can I say? Your post is very moving. Wow!

Sometimes when I am down, I ask myself, what if did not exist, but then I could only live for 5 seconds, and therefore only experience the world in front of me for just that 5 seconds? My entire life/existence would just be 5 seconds long.

This world is so outrageously, mind-blowingly, incredible, that I would take that 5 seconds. It would be the best 5 seconds of my life. Yeah, wow, the universe is rather impressive! I think that 5 seconds of existence would be, and is, truly amazing.

The other question I ask myself, when I am down, is would I be okay if I found out that the spaceship I was in, the one that was taking me to Mars, had an air leak and I would run out of air and never make it to Mars?

I would be okay with that because the trip to Mars would be so amazing, so profound, it would be worth the risk.

The planet earth is the spaceship we are all on, and the voyage is worth every second.



Regards,
Martin


----------



## TrojakEW (Jun 29, 2021)

bill5 said:


> If calling out misinformation is "aggressive," then guilty as charged. As for my problem, it's people touting opinions, anecdotal evidence, or outright false information as facts. I'm sure it was with the best of intentions, but that doesn't make it OK or something that should slide by.
> 
> 
> You may not mean it that way, but advice is in a way an invitation to "convert." And you aren't just giving advice, you're stating things as facts which aren't. If you want to eat nothing but meat, go for it. That doesn't mean it is or should be touted as a great idea for others.
> ...


Please enlighten me what essential nutrient you can not get from animal based food. If you do not want to embarrass yourself plaese do stop.

BTW what is more aggresive, taking drugs and medicaments in order to heal sypmtoms or triyng to change his diet in order to aim the for cause of the problem.

Carnivore simply work and I do not care if it looks crazy or aggresive to you. When I first read about it some years ago I was thining the same but after study this more and actually trying it I only can say it is life changer. There is more information not just anectodes. First link I posted was clinical test on humans and not anectode or epidemiology.


----------



## emilio_n (Jun 29, 2021)

Hey Darren! I never dealt with serious depression but I suffered anxiety and bad moments in my life.
I agree that depression has physical causes and that medication and a healthy lifestyle could help a lot.

I can give you a lot of advice but as others commented, professional assistance is the first step. In my case, small victories and moments of joy help me to be more positive and let behind the bad things. 

This is a great forum and reading this thread reminds me that most of the community are really nice and supportive colleagues. I think that reading about others experiences could help you but take the advice with a grain of salt. This is a composers forum, not a medical one. 

If you are able to find a therapist that fits with you and use the right therapy, with time and hard work by your side, you will be much better. Meanwhile, as you can see, you have all our support!


----------



## TrojakEW (Jun 30, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Just want to clear a few things up. I eat healthily. 2 apple a day, grapes, banana, broccoli , carrots, salmon, brown bread. No desserts, no sweets, no chocolate. Dried fruit and nuts. Seems kind of comical me saying what I eat to fellow composers but it came up. I don’t smoke or drink or take illegal drugs.


Read more about toxins and antinutrients. Driet fruit and nuts are not that healthy as you think. From the list you are on high carb diet (except salmon) that may be deficient in fat soluble vitamins that are esential for human brain. Brown bread or white bread it doesn't matter still lots of lectins that disturb your gut, cause leaky gut. Your gut is center of you immunity and also only way to absorb nutrients. It doesn't matter what you consume if your body can not absorb it. Heal you body first so your brain can really get what it needs.

Avoid refined oils that are high on PUFA that are pro inflammatory.


----------



## veranad (Jun 30, 2021)

I have followed this thread from the very beginning but I do not know how to help.

Darren, some basic things that come to mind:

Seek professional help.
Keep going out, doing your things and meeting people. Quality over quantity for all these.
Life changes all the time. Just try to keep going, be open minded, and adapt. I am sure you will find a partner eventually, but even if you don´t, you can do very well on your own.
I wish you the best.


----------



## mywordsaidmat (Jun 30, 2021)

Zedcars I wish you all the best mate. Like many I'm also haunted by the black dog of depression, and like many here what helps me keep on top of it and indeed wave to it in the distance is nature, psychotherapy (as in Freudian), running, music, and my little kids. I can really relate to the positive stuff you get from your niece and nephew, they can help undo some of the trauma from our own childhoods. I hope you find your peace, fella x

p.s. and seriously everybody, stop with the relentless nutrition preaching / debating! Go off on another thread. Please.


----------



## TrojakEW (Jun 30, 2021)

mywordsaidmat said:


> p.s. and seriously everybody, stop with the relentless nutrition preaching / debating! Go off on another thread. Please.


Nutrition has greatest effect on mental health. It is most important and it should be the first think to consider when dealing with such problem. If you are ignoring this fact, then you are ignoring your own future and health.


----------



## mywordsaidmat (Jun 30, 2021)

TrojakEW said:


> Nutrition has greatest effect on mental health. It is most important and it should be the first think to consider when dealing with such problem. If you are ignoring this fact, then you are ignoring your own future and health.


You've stated your opinion extensively. That at least cannot be ignored. All I'm suggesting is that if people want to continue discussing nutrition then start a new thread.


----------



## TrojakEW (Jun 30, 2021)

mywordsaidmat said:


> You've stated your opinion extensively. That at least cannot be ignored. All I'm suggesting is that if people want to continue discussing nutrition then start a new thread.


Your logic is false. This is connected diretcly to this thread and problems he have - mental health. Why to start new thread about the same problem? What is the point? I will not going to discuss nutrition here generally. I have done this because OP ask for help. That's it.

If OP do not want any of this nutrition advices then I will stop. No problem.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 30, 2021)

TrojakEW said:


> Nutrition has greatest effect on mental health. It is most important and it should be the first think to consider when dealing with such problem. If you are ignoring this fact, then you are ignoring your own future and health.


The OP himself just described his condition and history in great detail, all you need to do is scroll up a little. If you read that and seriously want to continue pushing this nutrition drivel, I don't even know what to say. Show some respect, man.


----------



## TrojakEW (Jun 30, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> The OP himself just described his condition and history in great detail, all you need to do is scroll up a little. If you read that and seriously want to continue pushing this nutrition drivel, I don't even know what to say. Show some respect, man.


I have read all what he wrote and I'm trying to be helpful as possible. I was even in worse position then hi is now and have more serious problems. Go ahead and continue not helping him out.

Take care. I'm out.


----------



## Fab (Jun 30, 2021)

I don't know if this helps but I like your music!

In your soundcloud picture it looks like you have a kid?

If you are feeling depressed to the point where you are thinking of disappearing I would urge you to talk to your family, if you are able to! Maybe also get some proper counseling from a healthcare professional. Depending on what country you are in it may even be free (we have the NHS in the UK) so that resource is always an option, they are there to help!

Moreover, I have read various news articles that suggest a general upswing in depression since COVID, you aren't alone in the way you feel so reach out to people.

Take care of yourself and your family 

Fab


----------



## el-bo (Jun 30, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Just want to clear a few things up. I eat healthily. 2 apple a day, grapes, banana, broccoli , carrots, salmon, brown bread. No desserts, no sweets, no chocolate. Dried fruit and nuts. Seems kind of comical me saying what I eat to fellow composers but it came up. I don’t smoke or drink or take illegal drugs.
> 
> THE BAD STUFF:
> Reasons for my depression (self diagnosis)? I was bullied at school and bullied in 2 previous jobs. 3 girlfriends cheated on me so I find it hard to trust women or even look anyone in the eye. I _can_ trust women but it takes me way longer than it normally should so I find it impossible to form relationships. I’m resigned to being single for the rest of my life. Very low opinion of myself and low self esteem which I’ve had since I was about 11 I suppose. I have very little confidence. My father passed last year. We’ve all lost someone close I’m sure. It’s still hard though knowing I can’t go and see him.
> ...


Sorry to hear of your pain. But glad to hear you’ve found your ‘why’, with regard to trying to get back to some semblance of normality.

As someone else alluded to, the depressed mind is not to be trusted when it tells you how dark or lonely your future might be. Whatever might be the eventual outcome, you are very capable of being a very active part of the writing if your future. And to the extent that certain things inevitably fall outside of your control, you can at least insure that you are able to find some peace while it all unfolds.

And if you aren’t yet in the place where you feel deserved of anything positive, then just concentrate on what it is you have to give to others.

Your nephew and niece will not judge you on superficial externalities or the fact that you don’t have a girlfriend. The connection built around play is pure. It’s possible they are the only people lucky enough to actually get the real you. 

Anyway, regardless of all the advice offered, you seem to be the perfect candidate for therapy. At the very least, just to have an independent perspective should help you from spinning your wheels, ruminating etc. And propel you towards some kind of recovery.

All the best


----------



## LudovicVDP (Jun 30, 2021)

Hi,

I don't suffer from depression so it's not my place to comment or give my thoughts on that.
What I can do is give my (personal) views on a few things you said in the music part of your post .

I have a day job that is demanding and that I like (I don't love it but I still like it). But I spend most of my day composing in my head, recording melodies whistling on my phone, watching YT videos, theory, tutorials, VI-post etc... basically, I spend my day whishing it would end so I could be in front of my DAW. "What am I doing here while I could be doing music instead !" You know what I mean?

Yet... often... when I'm finally home, kids in bed, house tasks are done, etc... when I finally have the time to open Cubase......... I simply don't. Or I do it... then noodle around for 10 min and stop. 
Sometimes the energy is gone. 

Here are a few random things.

- Day job + wife + kids + all the sh*t one can encounter in a normal life... that takes a lot of energy. Sometimes you run out of it. Nothing abnormal here. 
I can only compose in the evening/night, so basically when I'm low on fuel.
I'm never as productive as when I take a day off to make music. Then, I'm fully in. I love it. 

- Music is not easy. Personally, I know I often struggle to make the things I have in mind sound as good in Cubase as they do in my mind  . That's just my level that is not up to the task (or not up to what I want to reach). I find it very difficult to want to start something and realize you can't make it sound good... How many time did I wonder whether I should find another hobby because I suck.

What works for me here: 
1: Deadlines. I've been working on an album for ages... Will I ever finish it? I don't know. If not, nobody is waiting for it anyway. But give me a contest with deadlines in 3 days... I'll have a finished piece by then! No time for doubts. Just do it !
You said you composed a children's musical. It means you definitely can  Maybe some goals (even small like contests or whatever) can help spark some ideas and get some motivation back.
2 - Get better. That's my 2d trick. I'm not good enough... So I take lessons. I try to improve. And I enjoy every little victories I get from there. ("Oh! So THAT's a C major? Love it !"  ). I practice on 8 bars ideas. I tweak my template etc... I've happened to compose a full track based on a simple exercise that I enjoyed and developed.
3 - Forcing the first 10 min. It's like going to the gym. Takes a lot of effort to leave the comfort of your sofa and go there. You simply don't want to go. But when you're there, you don't regret a single min of it. You feel like your body needed it. Same for music. 


- You talked about feeling lonely in your music. That's also an really important point. My wife can barely makes a difference between a piano and a cello and doesn't really care not to be able to. She likes what I do because it's me... But I can't talk music with her. Not only her. I don't have a lot of people around me knowing what a publisher is, what a DAW is, what GAS is, what's the best strings library and if the damn legato really matters ! 
It can be very frustrating indeed when what makes you vibrate doesn't resonate with anybody. A passion is always better when shared.
Not so long ago however, a cousin started to make music. I now have someone who speaks the same language. Even if it's nothing more than a short Whatsapp here and there... That's indeed very nice to have. 

Anyway... I don't know whether I make sense...
Not always easy. I hope you find the energy back at some point.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake (Jun 30, 2021)

TrojakEW said:


> I have read all what he wrote and I'm trying to be helpful as possible. I was even in worse position then hi is now and have more serious problems. Go ahead and continue not helping him out.
> 
> Take care. I'm out.


It's good that you mean well. However many other users here have shared that they don't think a strict diet alone is going to help him. Furthermore, the uncompromising opinion you have and the strict diet you follow don't really seem to be helping you all that much, so it may not be the best advice for him, even if you would like to help.

I am inclined to agree that if you want to talk nutrition and mental health then another thread would be good. The topic doesn't have to be abandoned altogether; perhaps it will even turn into a productive discussion, who knows.


----------



## el-bo (Jun 30, 2021)

Karl Feuerstake said:


> It's good that you mean well. However many other users here have shared that they don't think a strict diet alone is going to help him. Furthermore, the uncompromising opinion you have and the strict diet you follow don't really seem to be helping you all that much, so it may not be the best advice for him, even if you would like to help.
> 
> I am inclined to agree that if you want to talk nutrition and mental health then another thread would be good. The topic doesn't have to be abandoned altogether; perhaps it will even turn into a productive discussion, who knows.


The OP has reached out for others' opinions and personal experience. And as far as I can tell, he hasn't sought to silence any of the contributions.

I've yet to see anything really that would be outside of the scope of the OP's request, so why are you trying to control the discussion?


----------



## Karl Feuerstake (Jun 30, 2021)

el-bo said:


> The OP has reached out for others' opinions and personal experience. And as far as I can tell, he hasn't sought to silence any of the contributions.
> 
> I've yet to see anything really that would be outside of the scope of the OP's request, so why are you trying to control the discussion?


I provided my input because it has already turned into a discussion about nutrition, and I also don't think the entirety of that topic should be abandoned; it just doesn't necessarily belong here.


----------



## el-bo (Jun 30, 2021)

Karl Feuerstake said:


> I provided my input because it has already turned into a discussion about nutrition, and I also don't think the entirety of that topic should be abandoned; it just doesn't necessarily belong here.


Like it or not, nutrition and other lifestyle factors are an important part of any discussion about depression and mental-health. Of course, when it gets into the weeds it can perhaps become less useful, but in the course of this thread people have worked out when to back off a bit (Even the guy you responded to had already decided to no longer persue the topic).

As nutritionally and ethically bankrupt as I think the so-called carnivore diet is, there are reasons why it (and other extreme, even diametrically-opposed diets) can be useful in healing. It might be the one thing that a certain person feels they can change, which becomes a foundation from which they might be motivated towards further change.


----------



## szczaw (Jun 30, 2021)

bill5 said:


> ? "Packed meat?" You want people to raise all their own animals?  Also some seed-based oils are quite healthy, like canola oil and flaxseed oil.


Vegetable oils are full of omega-6 and are healthy as long as you maintain in your body omega-6 and omega-3 in 1-4:1 ratio. In the western diet the ratio is severely skewed towards omega-6. There's way too much consumption of vegetable oil, grains, and not enough of animal fat(fish in particular). Omega-3 in flaxseed oil is not as effective. There's also widespread deficiency of vitamin D found in animal fat. D3 found in animal products is more effective. Generally, plant nutrition that is 'on paper' is not going to be absorbable in the same amounts in your body due to antinutrients.


----------



## mywordsaidmat (Jun 30, 2021)

el-bo said:


> ..but in the course of this thread people have worked out when to back off a bit


I respectfully disagree


----------



## bill5 (Jun 30, 2021)

TrojakEW said:


> Please enlighten me what essential nutrient you can not get from animal based food. If you do not want to embarrass yourself plaese do stop.


Said the pot to the kettle. You want embarrassment dude, just read any of your posts. Again what you eat is your business. But when you start touting misinformation as fact, you will be called out.

This is my last post to you because as others have already mentioned, it is sidetracking too much into general nutrition vs about the OP and depression...and frankly discussing this with you is like trying to teach a cow to sing. It only wastes my time and annoys the cow.

To answer your question: Vitamin C. Vitamin E (in sufficient amounts at least). I could go on. You also ignore how high meat can be in fat, cholesterol and salt (varies obviously). 



> BTW what is more aggresive, taking drugs and medicaments in order to heal sypmtoms or triyng to change his diet in order to aim the for cause of the problem.


If you'd bothered to read the OP's posts, you'd see that he already explained he is eating a healthy, balanced diet. It is not the cause of the problem. If you'd bothered to read my posts, you'd know I emphasized that medications are not always the answer.



> Carnivore simply work and I do not care if it looks crazy or aggresive to you.


I don't care if it looks crazy or aggressive either...it's simply incorrect. But good luck with it!


----------



## szczaw (Jun 30, 2021)

3DC said:


> Now when you combine high carb "healthy" brown bread with high fat meat like salmon well you get a bomb for your body. Not to mention high carbs GMO apples, bananas and other "healthy" food you find in the market.
> 
> The irony is people actually think they have a healthy and balanced meals but in reality they have "healthy" bombs for their body and mind.
> 
> Food is no joke guys.


Sugar (carbs) mixed with fat promote fat storage (Randle cycle) and lead to type 2 diabetes and insulin resistance. Pick one or the other. It's bad to mix both.


----------



## cygnusdei (Jun 30, 2021)

3DC said:


> Most people simply don't know this but brown bread is not the same as the brown bread we used to eat 30-50 years ago. These days you basically get colored white bread made from highly modified GMO wheat full of gluten but with some added grains just to fake it.
> 
> Now when you combine high carb "healthy" brown bread with high fat meat like salmon well you get a bomb for your body. Not to mention high carbs GMO apples, bananas and other "healthy" food you find in the market.
> 
> ...


----------



## Zedcars (Jun 30, 2021)

On top of everything else a major traumatic experience happened to me aged 8 by a neighbour. I’ve only told one other person, and I don’t think I can type the words out here. Too awful. But it affected me more than anything else. It’s always there in my memory. Can’t get rid of it. Best I can do is block it out with other things and thoughts.

We moved house soon after so it all stopped thank goodness. That was coincidental. My mum and dad never knew what happened to me, only that I started going into a shell and became incredibly shy and distrustful. Took me a long time to emerge from that.

It seems I must have done something pretty bad in a former life for all this to fall at my door.

Still, despite it all. I can still laugh at things and enjoy moments in life. I can joke on here (a lot of my posts on here are a bit silly tbh). I guess I try to be light hearted to counter the darkness. I changed jobs this year and I’m happy there. Nice bunch of people and they seem to have accepted me for who I am which is all I could hope for.

I’m seeing my sis, bro-in-law, little niece and nephew again in 6 weeks (they live a long way away up in Yorkshire, UK). So I’m looking forward to that.


----------



## mywordsaidmat (Jun 30, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> On top of everything else a major traumatic experience happened to me aged 8 by a neighbour. I’ve only told one other person, and I don’t think I can type the words out here. Too awful. But it affected me more than anything else. It’s always there in my memory. Can’t get rid of it. Best I can do is block it out with other things and thoughts.


This is hugely positive that you're sharing this stuff, as from personal experience the blocking out often doesn't work, it finds a way to come out. And often in ways that hurt us or others. 

I can't recommend therapy enough for getting that stuff out, like drawing out poison. To be free of it, and live your life. I've been in therapy for years and it's had a huge positive effect (having experienced various trauma as a child). Please do feel free to ping me a message if I can help in any way e.g. good places to find a therapist, how it works etc. (I'm also UK based)

Can you talk to your sister about it btw? Might help, might not, depends on your relationship. But certainly worth considering.


----------



## Zedcars (Jun 30, 2021)

Fab said:


> I don't know if this helps but I like your music!
> 
> In your soundcloud picture it looks like you have a kid?
> 
> ...


Thank you. That’s my nephew. He nearly died when he was 3 — septic shock. He pulled through. Fantastic medical staff at in the children’s ward up in Leeds (I’m in the UK too). Life is so fragile.


----------



## Zedcars (Jun 30, 2021)

TrojakEW said:


> I have read all what he wrote and I'm trying to be helpful as possible. I was even in worse position then hi is now and have more serious problems. Go ahead and continue not helping him out.
> 
> Take care. I'm out.


Hey, sorry to hear you got into a bit of a heated disagreement. I really appreciate your help, and everyone who took the time to reply. I hope you are able to overcome your problems, or, if that’s not possible, learn to live with them.


----------



## MauroPantin (Jun 30, 2021)

I don't know if this helps or not for your case in particular but thought I'd share just in case it does. One of my best friends was depressed, for many, many years. He would wander at night just to avoid being at home, and sometimes come knocking on my door at 3am. He was always welcomed of course, I don't sleep at night, anyway. Fortunately, that is no longer the case and he is quite happy now, so please know that there is absolutely a way out of your situation.

For him in particular, it took a lot of work, going to therapy, a lot of trial and error with meds until he got the right combo, and then working on himself. It is not a short process but I think it's worth it. I am not exaggerating when I say the world is better because he is a part of it, and I'm not saying that just because he's my friend, I honestly think that is objectively true.

I think one of the most important things for him was that he was (and still is) super obsessive about details in his life, and that would transfer to his depression. He would be constantly measuring his mood and state of mind against the previous days to figure out if he was trending up or trending down, measuring his accomplishments, etc. I know one of his Eureka moments was figuring out that every now and then you just get a shitty or unproductive day, and that it happens to everyone. So if you are fighting depression and have a bad day, sometimes you can just chuck it as that, instead of thinking that you are running in circles or dipping down again, which isn't necessarily true. Maybe even if you're lying to yourself sometimes on that it is still better to think of it that way, because then you are not discouraging or hindering your progress with internal monologue.


----------



## Tim_Wells (Jun 30, 2021)

@Zedcars (Darren) - Based on all you've been through, it's no wonder you're hurting. There've been tremendous advances in treating trauma/PTSD in recent years. Peter Levine and Bessel Van Der Kolk are some notable voices. 

I hope you're able to find some help. I truly think you can get better!


----------



## Jotto (Jun 30, 2021)




----------



## CT (Jul 1, 2021)

Yes I am cripplingly depressed much of the time recently. Maybe it's more like I'm cripplingly frustrated and bitter than outright depressed. Maybe both. It's mostly due to external factors which are proving very difficult to change. The worst of it is that again, yes, it strangles the musical urge right out of me. I never stop musical thinking but it often feels incredibly futile to act on any of it. So much time wasted in silence. 

I'm sorry for what you're dealing with, and everyone else in the thread too. I wish I had something useful to say, but I don't, except that I hope we can all find the right way forward.


----------



## noises on (Jul 1, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Please don't state opinion as fact. This is far from conclusively proven.
> 
> 
> Because relying on youtube videos for medical advice for severe/chronic depression is foolish, to put it kindly.


Darren requested feedback...Quote: "_*Does this affect others here? What are your coping mechanisms*_? Any help would be very appreciated." 
On this basis, I think it should be left to Darren to gently censor my, or any one elses perspective or mechanism. I simply voiced the manner of my outcome from similar psychological challenges.


----------



## Zedcars (Jul 2, 2021)

Hey,

Just wanted to end on a positive note: I’m feeling a bit better than I was when I started this thread the other day. I think that’s in large part due to the advice, kind words of encouragement and generally nice, thoughtful people that took the time to reply and even PM me. I hope this doesn’t sound rude, but I wasn’t expecting anything like that at all. Thanks so much. It’s amazing! It has opened my eyes to how common depression seems to be but at least there is help out there. You just have to admit to yourself that you need it. And it really does help to talk things over with people rather than suffer in silence and keep pretending everything is ok when it’s not. I hope those that are also suffering get the help and support they need.

Have a great weekend.

Kind regards,
Darren


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 2, 2021)

One thing I've found in life is that keeping emotions locked up inside (be it loss, trauma, lonliness, anything really) often ends up coming out as depression or anxiety instead. Like if it was the bodys/minds way of saying "hey, you've stuff to deal with here!". As you say, you just gotta admit it, and stop pretending. Often the the real feelings are easier to deal with than the alternative anyway. <3


----------



## redlester (Jul 3, 2021)

Really sorry to see you've been suffering Darren. I don't visit this site too often these days, but whenever I do you are one of my favourite posters. The world would be a lesser place without you.

Hope things continue to improve mate, and with regard to music the best thing I could say is never give in. The creative urge can be so rewarding when the spark does finally take hold.

I'm coming to terms with the fact I'm 62 in a few months. The last 10 years have gone by in a blink of an eye. Yet only the other week I accidentally stumbled over the most amazing Polish composer/artist - Hania Rani. I'm completely obsessed with her work at the moment, I find it stunningly beautiful. She's playing a gig at Union Chapel in London in October and am going to that, and it really makes me feel good that at my age I can still get that excitement about new music just exactly like I felt each time I discovered a new band in my youth. It's very uplifting.

This was what did it for me:


----------



## stixman (Jul 4, 2021)

A problem shared is a problem halved


----------



## el-bo (Jul 4, 2021)

stixman said:


> A problem shared is a problem halved


Indeed! However, at this point this thread has 5k views. Not sure how many of those are unique visitors, but if problems halve with each unique person then Zedcars has perhaps inadvertently stumbled on the cure 

Eye-witness accounts suggest that Darren needs to triple his destination time to account for the dancing:


----------



## MartinH. (Jul 8, 2021)

@Zedcars: Thank you for sharing and making this thread. I think a lot of good for this community has come from it, and I hope a lot of good has/will come from it for you personally too! From what you've said, I'll add my voice to the choir that recommends therapy to you. I know it can be very daunting to get started with this and even once you've decided to start, finding one that has time free in their schedule - let alone finding the one that fits you well - can be a real challenge. Nevertheless you have a lot more to gain than to lose from trying it out, so I highly highly recommend you make your first step on this path and take it one step at a time. If you have the chance, trying out a couple different therapists before you pick one to stick with for longer can be a very good strategy.

And I want to pass along one other recommendation, because I've often heard it being recommended by a professional psychiatrist: self-confidence issues can apparently be greatly improved by being out in nature. I don't know how it works and neither does he, but apparently it has a good track record of helping people with these issues. Give it a try, at worst you've taken a couple nice hikes and improved your physical health, at best it eases one of the many burdens that you carry.

Good luck to you!

The following is some general advice / thoughts that I don't wish to direct at anyone specifically. None of these things on their own are a "cure" anyway (unless you're super lucky maybe to only have one easily fixable thing wrong with you), but I think they can be positive factors to nudge things towards the right track again, like many of the other strategies that people listed in this thread. I subscribe to the unproven theory that depression is not "one thing", but instead a collection of "several different things", that aren't understood well enough to give them individual names yet. It would very conveniently explain why no one can agree on "the one correct treatment" for depression. If one strategy is enough to cure a depression, that person may only have suffered from that one root cause, while others will suffer from many root causes, and will need a specific combination of strategies to get better.

1. This has been mentioned in this thread before, but I want to emphasize this: Go to your GP and have your Vitamin D levels checked. Even if you don't have depression, do it! I bet at least 80% of this community are Vitamin D deficient, probably more. It's easy to diagnose objectively with a blood test, and easy and safe to fix with a supplement. I don't understand why doctors don't push for this more. Literally everyone I've recommended this to turned out to be deficiant in Vitamin D. I know of one case where the supplementation alone lead to considerable mood improvements in a young girl.
Iirc Vitamin D is the _only _supplement they give to astronauts, because it's so hard to get enough from via food alone. I'll gladly take those pills for the rest of my life. A lot of RSI-like pain symptoms that I had were greatly improved after I started supplementing Vitamin D.

2. Light therapy lamps - if you suffer from the kind of depression that comes with the darker seasons and goes away again with spring/summer, you might feel considerably better from using a light therapy lamp, and maybe even rethinking your studio lighting solution. I don't have this as a general problem, but I've experienced phases where I didn't get enough light and drifted into profound negative changes to my mental state that were fixed within days after remembering again that I have that lamp and need to use it more. If you haven't gone through something comparable yourself, it's impossible to imagine what a huge difference this can make, and yet it feels totally disconnected from the amount of light you get. I'd imagine trying an antidepressant that adresses a problem that you happen to have, is a similarly mind-blowing experince.
This is a fairly low risk strategy too, although I should mention that there may be some eye conditions that don't react well to such bright light. Do your own research or talk to your doctor.

3. I don't want to become a part of the heated nutrition debate, but I know there are people who developed depression as a symptom of specific food allergies. So changing diet _can_ be enough for a special minority of people, and there is not "the one right diet that works for everyone". So in your own way, you all can be right at the same time, whether you're eating 100% raw vegan or 100% meat. Just be thankful if you even have a free choice to make on what you eat.
It's worth looking into and experimenting with for sure, but I wouldn't put this at the top of the list of things to go through.



Trash Panda said:


> Bodies of water emanate negative ions that improve mood and electronics tend to emanate positive ions that tend to make mood worse.


Interesting, never heard of this before. It sounds like physics and physics should be verifyable in a proper placebo controlled study. Do you have a link to such a study? It's possible there are such effects but I'd imagine they would be more well known by now if there are?!



bill5 said:


> So is this. For example, most cells in the body (i.e. beneath the skin) NEVER get ANY "Sun/Light." I won't even hit the low-hanging fruit of "wild water sources" or "looking at natural vistas." Apparently you think single cells have eyeballs?


Sunlight helps the body synthesize Vitamin D which has all kinds of positive effects in deeper tissue areas too, because it's transported there via bloodstream. So there is an example where the non-scientific woowoo belief that sun may help, may have been right all along and now science can tell us why.

It's sometimes tough to draw the line between science and pseudo science, because a lot of scientific things that _work_, only count as science after they are _understood_. But they did already work before that point. On the other hand we've made concessions and count a lot of things as science that we actually _don't_ fully understand. The mechanisms by which many antidepressants work are only theorized about, we don't actually know for sure how and why some of them work and others don't.

I'm very much pro science and pro medicine, but I acknowledge that none of this is perfected yet and we still have sooo much to learn and discover. So please don't take this as me bashing antidepressants, it is absolutely not intended as such. I just wouldn't blindly discard all other approaches that aren't scientifically understood yet either.



AlexRuger said:


> I'm a skinny guy and had absolutely zero reason to think I had sleep apnea. I don't snore when I sleep (partners confirmed it). And yet, there it was, absolutely destroying my brain and my quality of life for _years, _and if that doctor hadn't mentioned sleep, I'd have never figured it out, as I had no reason to suspect it.


Thanks for bringing this up again, I really need to have that checked! Also I do not understand why you got attacked for your other post. As far as I can tell it was well balanced and level-headed advice that is in line with professional treatment standards and you can for sure get much worse and way more dangerous advice from some "bad apples" among the licensed professionals.



mybadmemory said:


> 2. Which brings me to my second thought. Are we all here sufffering from depression and anxiety? Does composing and sample hoarding attract us troubled souls, or are they part of creating us?


Statistically_ more than half_ of us should have already been depressed before covid, now it's probably closer to 80% or more. Right now it would be more unusual to _not _be depressed.
There has always be a strong correlation between art and suffering. A lot of it may actually be unnecessary *), but it's hard to detangle which components are linked to changeable aspects of the life and identity of an artist and related factors, and which are a correlation in genetic predispositions towards art and depression.

*) My post is already too long so I don't want to elaborate much on that now. Instead I'll link to the youtube playlist where I picked that thought up:



I highly highly recommend giving this a shot to anyone who has the mildest interest in medition and/or problems with proverbially "putting pen to paper" in their creative endeavours. It is aimed at visual artists and it's essentially a series of guided meditations that are disguised as drawing videos. You can mentally replace "art practice" with "meditation practice", that's basically how he has intended the series anyway, and you can replace "drawing" with "improvising on your instrument". A lot should be directly transferable to the act of composing.
When I discovered this series of videos they left quite the impression on me as being unusally "enlightening", but then I got swept up in work and lost track of working with his approach, but I really want to give it another shot very soon, maybe trying to apply it to making music this time.


----------



## Shigeru (Jul 30, 2021)

Do you know any specialists that deal with bulimic patients?


----------



## terrypippa (Jul 30, 2021)

Yeah. I was also struggling with this issue. In one moment, I completely lost control of my life because I had irresistible cravings. I didn't even take the time to taste the food during a binge and to be honest, it wasn't very satisfying. I gained weight quickly and was really scared about how overeating affected my mental health. That's when I turned to this professional https://fherehab.com/learning/weight-gain-stress for assistance. In the last 2 years, the treatment I've been getting from this center has done more for me than all of the treatment I've had in the previous 10 years combined.


----------



## chimuelo (Jul 30, 2021)

I actually hit a wall 6 months ago, just didn’t touch my rig for weeks.
My youngest boy handed me a blunt. Took a big draw and 15 minutes later couldn’t stop playing. I am so straight I have to lay down to take a shit, so one jolt really did the trick.

For an entire year I learned software tricks I never had time to delve in, practiced classical, jazz tunes from my early years, just burned out. But I’d never been out of work since I learned to drive. To be expected I suppose.

Hope others find their own self healing. 

Gregg Braden has an excellent series that covers life in general and self healing called Missing Links. Great information there too.

FWIW I only do this one toke trick every couple months, no need to find motivation daily.


----------



## bill5 (Jul 30, 2021)

noises on said:


> Darren requested feedback...Quote: "_*Does this affect others here? What are your coping mechanisms*_? Any help would be very appreciated."
> On this basis, I think it should be left to Darren to gently censor my, or any one elses perspective or mechanism. I simply voiced the manner of my outcome from similar psychological challenges.


Yes, he requested feedback. I doubt that included something stated as fact which isn't. That isn't "perspective" or "mechanism," it's misleading. It's cool if it's your opinion, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'd just ask you make it clear that that is what it is, not a fact. And again anyone can post anything on youtube, so that's hardly an advisable source of medical or mental health information. In short: post responsibly, that's all.


----------



## kevinh (Jul 30, 2021)

Buddy of mine was suffering from severe depression for many years. Turns out it was being caused by inflammation. Once they treated that he was back to his old self. I don’t know the particulars as we haven’t talked in a while. May not apply to everyone. But Google depression and imflammation and there is a lot of research out there (for and against). Good luck.


----------

