# DT 770 pro | Trouble with translating



## JCarlsen (Jul 22, 2022)

Hi,

Im currently considering some new cans. I am operating on a set of DT 770 Pros which are great headphones, but I cant get them to translate even close to what i want. My mixes come out sounding totally different with many mistakes such as to much low end or terrible effects(reverb).

Im not in a position were speakers/treatment is on the table som Im looking for someone willing to share their experience in this matter. Will open back headphones potentially offer a different experience or do I just need to power through?

Best,
J


----------



## Vik (Jul 22, 2022)

Hi, what are you (or someone else?) listening through when you/they come to the conclusion that there'w too much low end?
Regarding 'terrible' reverb, that's a different story. Wrong use of reverbs and/or poor/weak reverbs/reverb presets can me the whole thing sound rather wrong. Which reverb are you using? And: does the reverb sound good when you mix, or only afterwards?


----------



## JCarlsen (Jul 22, 2022)

Vik said:


> Hi, what are you (or someone else?) listening through when you/they come to the conclusion that there'w too much low end?
> Regarding 'terrible' reverb, that's a different story. Wrong use of reverbs and/or poor/weak reverbs/reverb presets can me the whole thing sound rather wrong. Which reverb are you using? And: does the reverb sound good when you mix, or only afterwards?


I've listened to the mix on my phone, in the car(low end buildup) on bose qc35(issues are not as bad/noticable). All these maybe except the phone show the errors but the car playoff does it the most. It also showcases the reverb which seems like an overlay which is for me impossible to hear while im mixing. Im mixing low, trying to tune it to the point where i almost cant notice it but its still there when i move to other listening devices, and take frequent brakes. I use a reference track and to my ears they sound very similar to the sound im after. But after export they are totally different. 
Im using Seventh Heaven standard, which has a realistic sound to it which is what Im after. Sounds excellent in the cans while mixing but afterwards when I listen on other devices I have clearly overshot with the amount.

I know some people reccomend software to tune the headphones but i would rather not add another potential problem to my setup at the moment.
Any experience with closed vs open headphones and has it been an improvement one way or the other in terms of translating?

Thanks for your response,
J


----------



## Vik (Jul 22, 2022)

Curious about what you mean with 'mixing low'?
I saw this in a review:

"The dip at the 250Hz range sits kind of at the cusp of lower mids and upper bass."

If there's a dip in that range, you'll probably compensate by adding more of this frequency range = more bass in the final mix, but what you should do, IMO, is to add more bass in your headphone mix only, and not to the mix you are creating.

It's also important to look at the headphone input: If it's from the headphone output of a computer, there's every chance that the sound you listen is colored by poor D/A-converters, which would influence your mix.


----------



## JCarlsen (Jul 22, 2022)

Mixing low ie. Low volume to avoid fatigue. 

I'll give the boost in the range you suggested a try. 

I'm using an Audient id4 mk2 so that shouldn't be the issue. 

Thanks again 🙂


----------



## jcrosby (Jul 22, 2022)

JCarlsen said:


> I've listened to the mix on my phone, in the car(low end buildup) on bose qc35(issues are not as bad/noticable). All these maybe except the phone show the errors but the car playoff does it the most. It also showcases the reverb which seems like an overlay which is for me impossible to hear while im mixing. Im mixing low, trying to tune it to the point where i almost cant notice it but its still there when i move to other listening devices, and take frequent brakes. I use a reference track and to my ears they sound very similar to the sound im after. But after export they are totally different.
> Im using Seventh Heaven standard, which has a realistic sound to it which is what Im after. Sounds excellent in the cans while mixing but afterwards when I listen on other devices I have clearly overshot with the amount.
> 
> I know some people reccomend software to tune the headphones but i would rather not add another potential problem to my setup at the moment.
> ...


Those are good headphones. The trick to getting mixes to translate is to use reference mixes, and check them periodically while you're mixing your track. Compare aspects of you mix to a similar one - _How does my low end compare to this reference track?_ _How does my reverb compare?_ Etc. If you're finding mix translation challenging compare every hour, compare every 30 mins if you need to...

You might also start comparing the reference and your track on a spectrum analyzer as well. If you don't use one already find one that lets you adjust the release time, and set it to have a very slow release. A slow release will show you how everything averages out, this is how you visually check the balance *across the frequency spectrum*, and are particularly useful for _seeing_ if you have too much low end in an area that may be hard to hear, like below 40 Hz....) You can kill two birds with one stone by comparing the balance of a reference to yours at the same time when you listen...

Reverb is something you really need to listen for though, and that's where references are really only going to be the only way to figure out what you're doing wrong with your reverb. (Most commonly is either using too much, or not cutting low rumble - below say 60-90 Hz. This also depends on the reverb, some have more low buildup than others so a comparison is really the best way to tell).... 

In terms of cutting lows... While you might want a rich orchestral reverb with lows only cut between 60-90 Hz, you don't need all of that low end in your percussion, or other instruments. If you leave the lows in both you get an enormous amount of buildup. And that build hangs around in the time domain, creating an excessive low build up, masking, etc.


----------



## Alex Niedt (Jul 22, 2022)

DT 770s sound great for casual listening, but they're not gonna translate easily at all (like most headphones). If you want headphones that will translate, get the Slate VSX. I guarantee once you get used to them you'll have mixes that translate effortlessly.


----------



## JCarlsen (Jul 22, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Those are good headphones. The trick to getting mixes to translate is to use reference mixes, and check them periodically while you're mixing your track. Compare aspects of you mix to a similar one - _How does my low end compare to this reference track?_ _How does my reverb compare?_ Etc. If you're finding mix translation challenging compare every hour, compare every 30 mins if you need to...
> 
> You might also start comparing the reference and your track on a spectrum analyzer as well. If you don't use one already find one that lets you adjust the release time, and set it to have a very slow release. A slow release will show you how everything averages out, this is how you visually check the balance *across the frequency spectrum*, and are particularly useful for _seeing_ if you have too much low end in an area that may be hard to hear, like below 40 Hz....) You can kill two birds with one stone by comparing the balance of a reference to yours at the same time when you listen...
> 
> Reverb is something you really need to listen for though, and that's where references are really only going to be the only way to figure out what you're doing wrong with your reverb. (Most commonly is either using too much, or not cutting low rumble - below say 60-90 Hz. This also depends on the reverb, some have more low buildup than others so a comparison is really the best way to tell)....


Thanks for the detailed reply. I think you are correct about the low-end rumble so I will have a look at that range and check. I use the ADPTR Metric but the release time I haven't considered. Maybe try some reverb sidechaining compression aswell?


----------



## JCarlsen (Jul 22, 2022)

Alex Niedt said:


> DT 770s sound great for casual listening, but they're not gonna translate easily at all (like most headphones). If you want headphones that will translate, get the Slate VSX. I guarantee once you get used to them you'll have mixes that translate effortlessly.


I'll put them on my list for Santa but they are over budget atm. Thanks for mentioning though 🙏


----------



## Bee_Abney (Jul 22, 2022)

I'm writing here just as someone who has been reading up on this recently looking to choose new headphone; not as someone who has much experience of these things. So, do bear that in mind: I'm a learner just trying to share what I've been reading/hearing on the subject.

From what I understand, closed-back headphones give a better bass response. Though Beyerdynamic are famously not good for bass anyway. Open-backed headphones will give you a more spacious sound.

But no headphones, however flat the response, and even used with a headphone amplifier, are going to give you a one-stop test for what is a good mix. Hence the use of reference tracks mentioned above; and the need to work out over time how the sounds in your headphones translate to other ways of listening.

While there is software that is supposed to help with this stuff, I'm cautious about it too, since results are likely to be non-ideal in non-ideal circumstances. But practice over time is important.

You also have to consider compression introduced by MP3 formats and by streaming platforms (together with any normalisation they might perform), and with moving from the sample rate in your DAW to the exported rate if that is different.

For bass, filtering/eq-ing can be very important. If you want sub-bass, you also have to consider how that will sound when it won't come through (like with a phone or tablet); and if you mix for the phone, you then have to consider how the bass might be too much on better speakers. So keeping the bass under control, cut around the key frequencies so that it doesn't build up to too much noise, may be something to look into.

For reverb, what I've read suggests that if you are looking for realism/spatialisation, then the rule of thumb is that you shouldn't be able to hear the reverb so much much as hear how flat the sound is when the reverb is removed. EQ-ing/filtering the reverb is also important to avoid a build up of mud. You could have a really luscious, unnatural reverb that causes no problems if it has been filtered out/compressed to be quiet in any frequencies where it clashes with other sounds in your mix.

While checking to see if your headphone use is optimised is important, the key thing, so far as I have been able to tell, is that the headphones let you hear the detail and make for a fairly pleasant listening experience. After that, lots and lost of practice, and smart practice where you know what you are looking for, is going to more important than better headphones (in whatever way is better) and software to flatten the response or to create the illusion of different listening environments.

I'm looking to get open-backed headphone myself, as I already have closed-back ones for tracking, but I want to get a fuller soundstage for panning and width. I'm considering Beyerdynamic because my hearing is not so great at higher pitches, an they are known for being very clear in the higher frequencies - more than might be ideal for pleasurable listening. My big concern is bass, since I am often dealing with a lot of bass and sub-bass, and so with a relatively poor response on the lower frequencies I might be inclined to overcompensate. As someone mentioned above, you can help deal with that at certain points in your work by increasing the bass on the listen buss, so that you mix the bass in the mix at a lower level.


----------



## JCarlsen (Jul 22, 2022)

Alot of useful stuff to consider. I'll try the reverb approach you suggested. 
Many thanks and feel free to update the thread with your incoming open back experience 👍


----------



## Pier (Jul 22, 2022)

FWIW my DT990 Pro 250ohm changed drastically when I got a better amp.

For years I thought amps were mostly about being able to push more or less gain, but that's not correct. Impedance plays a big role too in how the headphones reproduce sound.

That said, the Beyers have an infamous treble peak which you have to consider. Personally after I got a better amp, the peak made them unusable for general production work. In my case, they might work for doing a quick check of a mix or listening to polished/mastered material but other than that they are collecting dust.

I'm very happy with my planar vanilla T50RP. These have become my favorite headphones, specially for the price.


----------



## jcrosby (Jul 22, 2022)

JCarlsen said:


> Thanks for the detailed reply. I think you are correct about the low-end rumble so I will have a look at that range and check. I use the ADPTR Metric but the release time I haven't considered. Maybe try some reverb sidechaining compression aswell?


Reverb sidechaining can definitely be useful, but it still won't reduce low build up to the same effect as cutting rumble and unnecessary low end. A combination of both can definitely help with clarity for sure though. It ultimately depends on the aesthetic you're going for...

Metric AB's great. You can actually set the release to _infinite_, or set it to the number just below infinite. This gives you a super slow FFT that shows you the overall balance. This is how I leave mine set up. With _infinite_, the spectrum will freeze over time (which I find useful, it takes some getting used to though so you might not like it.) To refresh the analyzer you just hit the Arrow icon.






Here's an example of how I might cut low reverb rumble on a percussion bus... Sometimes I'll set it above 100, it depends on the aesthetic I'm going for...


----------



## X-Bassist (Jul 22, 2022)

Regardless of your headphones, if it’s the only way you can mix consider getting Sonarworks or something similar. They have presets for different headphones to smooth out the eq and make them translate much better. There should be a free demo. On sale it goes for about $60 so I picked it up. Brilliant for correcting headphones and will work with most systems/daws.








Sonarworks SoundID Reference Plug-in for Headphones


Headphones Calibration Software - Mac/PC Standalone, VST, AU, AAX Native




www.sweetwater.com





Any set of headphones has it’s own eq curve, this levels the playing field. Even makes $150 pair of AT M50x’s good for mixing 

With this you can keep the cans you have, since the DT770’s are a good set. Try the demo before you go out and buy anything else. It surprised me how good it works just setting the preset (It should have the 770’s in there).









SoundID Reference - Speaker & Headphone Calibration


Create with full confidence in sound with speaker & headphone calibration software SoundID Reference. Already trusted by over 100'000 studios globally.




www.sonarworks.com


----------



## Pier (Jul 22, 2022)

X-Bassist said:


> Any set of headphones has it’s own eq curve, this levels the playing field. Even makes $150 pair of AT M50x’s good for mixing


Personally I've always been very skeptical about solutions like Sonarworks.

First because Sonarworks doesn't know what amp you're using, or pads, or your ear shape which all have an impact on the sound.

And second because EQ doesn't help with transient responses and that sort of thing. If you have headphones with a bad low end, it might a transducer issue as much as a tone issue.

Andrew Scheps only mixes on headphones now (Sony MDR7506) without any correction software. He has been using the same model for more than 10 years I believe. My impression (from a couple of videos I've seen) is that the trick is rather teaching your brain to work with certain headphones. Listen to as much stuff as you can on your headphones and the usual mixing tricks (references, play your mix in as many different speakers as you can, etc).


----------



## X-Bassist (Jul 22, 2022)

Pier said:


> Personally I've always been very skeptical about solutions like Sonarworks.
> 
> First because Sonarworks doesn't know what amp you're using, or pads, or your ear shape which all have an impact on the sound.
> 
> ...


I have gotten use to mixing on M50’s even before the software, but I could hear the improvement in the correction enough to feel it’s worth buying for when I’m mixing at home, if nothing else for an A/B check (since I’m use to the headphones). I think many people can train their ears to get use to headphones, but it takes a lot of time mixing and many people don’t have the inclination or adaptive brain to do it. Just like I can have a bodybuilder’s body but do I want to spend 8 hours a day in a gym? No. mixing? Yes, please. :D My muscles don’t adapt as quick as my brain and ears do.

Have you tried the free demo of it? I would check it out since it sounds like it’s doing more than simple eq, but I could be wrong. The face that it can work in my Mac OS as well and can be easily bypassed is kind of brilliant.








SoundID Reference - Speaker & Headphone Calibration


Create with full confidence in sound with speaker & headphone calibration software SoundID Reference. Already trusted by over 100'000 studios globally.




www.sonarworks.com





Obviously it won’t make a bad pair of cans sound good, or extend the freq range the headphones have, but I think most people here have a good set that could translate to other mediums (in my case movie theaters) much better. That seemed to be the focus of the thread, getting the mixes to translate.


----------



## jcrosby (Jul 22, 2022)

Pier said:


> My impression (from a couple of videos I've seen) is that the trick is rather teaching your brain to work with certain headphones. Listen to as much stuff as you can on your headphones and the usual mixing tricks (references, play your mix in as many different speakers as you can, etc).


For sure.... I have totally mediocre headphones (M50x). But mixing on them isn't an issue because I know how they translate... It's really no different than speakers, knowing your room, etc. 
Nice cans are great, but nothing can replace knowing the ones you have.


----------



## Pier (Jul 22, 2022)

X-Bassist said:


> I have gotten use to mixing on M50’s even before the software, but I could hear the improvement in the correction enough to feel it’s worth buying for when I’m mixing at home, if nothing else for an A/B check (since I’m use to the headphones). I think many people can train their ears to get use to headphones, but it takes a lot of time mixing and many people don’t have the inclination or adaptive brain to do it. Just like I can have a bodybuilder’s body but do I want to spend 8 hours a day in a gym? No. mixing? Yes, please. :D My muscles don’t adapt as quick as my brain and ears do.
> 
> Have you tried the free demo of it? As with a lot of these things, until you try it your just guessing. I would check it out since it sounds like it’s doing more than simple eq, but I could be wrong. The face that it can work in my Mac OS as well and can be easily bypassed is kind of brilliant.
> 
> Obviously it won’t make a bad pair of cans sound good, or extend the freq range the headphones have, but I think most people here have a good set that could translate to other mediums (in my case movie theaters) much better. That seemed to be the focus of the thread, getting the mixes to translate.


I did a quick try a couple of years ago with headphones and monitors (did the whole thing recording at multiple spots in the room etc). I... wasn't impressed 

Obviously anyone should do whatever works for them. I'm just sharing my personal experience.

I'm not a super pro mixer or anything, and I haven't done any serious mixing in over a decade... but I used to think "oh you need to have the flattest response for things to translate well".

Now I'm not so sure. These days I think the magic is rather in understanding how to make some material "translatable". Certainly I wish I had that arcane knowledge myself 😂


----------



## Bee_Abney (Jul 22, 2022)

Pier said:


> I did a quick try a couple of years ago with headphones and monitors (did the whole thing recording at multiple spots in the room etc). I... wasn't impressed
> 
> Obviously anyone should do whatever works for them. I'm just sharing my personal experience.
> 
> ...


The trick is, filter out anything above 5,000 kHz or below 350 kHz, and use mono. And only one instrument. That translates pretty accurately to nearly any sound system.


----------



## proggermusic (Jul 22, 2022)

The reality is, no matter how good your headphones, monitors, room, etc. are, when you're mixing a project, you need to check it on as many sources as possible: studio headphones, studio monitors, consumer headphones/loudspeakers, in the car, even on laptop speakers! Each source will help you hear different things and slowly you'll zero in on a good approximation that works well on multiple sources. The more you do it, the faster and better you'll get at it, but it's a slow process at first. That's ok and normal!

Beyer makes great stuff. The headphones aren't the problem, and another pair of headphones won't fix the issue. You just need to diversify your listening sources as much as possible as you draft your mixes, and over time you'll get there. Good luck!


----------



## PaulieDC (Jul 22, 2022)

Pier said:


> Personally I've always been very skeptical about solutions like Sonarworks.
> 
> First because Sonarworks doesn't know what amp you're using, or pads, or your ear shape which all have an impact on the sound.
> 
> ...


For my HD 650s I did get sonar works because I was also using it to calibrate the IK multimedia I loud MTMs. It actually worked really well, at least much better than nothing (side note: I totally agree about getting a good headphone amp). I got rid of sonar works when I invested in the Neuman 2.1 system which has its own calibration so that leaves me kind of stuck with my HD 650s being stock again because Neumann software and sonar works do not play nice together.

However one thing I wanted to mention, when I was using sonar works in the headphones, what surprised me when I first listened is that they sounded flat and lifeless at first, and reminded me of my Sony MDR7506’s I’ve had in my audio bag for quite a number of years when using a field recorder with the boom pole and shotgun mic to get audio for a video project. To hear you say that Andrew Schepp uses those for mixing now makes sense. They _are_ flat and lifeless which gives you a wonderfully even mix I bet!

Anyway @JCarlsen: I would maybe stick with what you have and get a good headphone amp, then maybe try to create a custom EQ curve to flatten down the lower end and then compare that to the mixes you’re currently getting, and see what happens. For my 650s I’m going to try that and compare against the Neumann system that is very well cal’d. Most headphones boost too much in the bottom to make them sound good. Duh. Like none of us here know that, lol!


----------



## rhizomusicosmos (Jul 22, 2022)

I use Sonarworks with DT880 Pro headphones and it works well. It manages to bring their response closer to the Genelecs I use for main monitors. No, it doesn't fix cup resonances or the inherent low frequency distortion in the drivers, but it does fix a lot of things. I also use the Waves Nx stuff sometimes but it lacks the transparency of Sonarworks. It won't hurt your wallet to try the demo just to see if it works for you.

If you want distortion free low end, then you probably need to try some planar magnetic designs such as this:





HE400se


<p><img src="http://hifiman.com/attachments/image/20210303/20210303090126_16767.jpg" alt="" /></p> <p><img src="http://hifiman.com/attachments/image/20210303/20210303090157_33378.jpg" alt="" /></p>




store.hifiman.com













Hifiman HE400SE Review (Headphone)


This is a review and detailed measurements of the Hifiman HE400SE open back planar magnetic headphone. It was sent to me by online seller, Linsoul and costs US $149. The HE400Se doesn't look fancy: It is however quite comfortable given its thick and large pads. Weight is a bit on the high...




www.audiosciencereview.com





But I want to chime in and agree with what others have said: making mixes that translate is an art. You have a lot of great tools, so you need to get them (and your ears) working for you.


----------



## Pier (Jul 22, 2022)

rhizomusicosmos said:


> If you want distortion free low end, then you probably need to try some planar magnetic designs


Exactly 

The Fostex T50RP for like $170 have been a gateway drug into planar for me 😂

I will probably get the Sundara at some point.


----------



## Mornats (Jul 22, 2022)

I totally feel for your problems as I suffer the same. There's great advice here about translating from an EQ perspective but I wanted to mention something about reverb. 

I suffer from the same issue, the reverb sounds great on headphones but is way too much on anything else I listen on. The only thing that helps is to listen on speakers. It doesn't matter if you have treatment in your room (I don't) and you don't need to listen loudly. Just checking on speakers helps you hear that reverb much more clearly.

I used Audio Technica M50x closed back headphones before swapping to Beyer DT880 pro (semi open) and whilst the soundstage and detail are better they've not helped with checking reverb levels on cans. I also started using Sonarworks and more recently Realphones to get a crossover. The crossover helps a little but a quick low volume check on my monitors (Yamaha HS7) helps a lot with reverb.

Finally, another thing that helps, but this time with EQ is Tonal Balance Control, which is part of Izotope's Neutron/Ozone packages. It's essentially an EQ graph with a target EQ zone that you visually aim to stay within. However, the tips above about looking at the EQ curve in an analyser should do a similar job.


----------



## Vik (Jul 22, 2022)

proggermusic said:


> you need to check it on as many sources as possible: studio headphones, studio monitors, consumer headphones/loudspeakers, in the car, even on laptop speakers


This.


----------



## JCarlsen (Jul 22, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Reverb sidechaining can definitely be useful, but it still won't reduce low build up to the same effect as cutting rumble and unnecessary low end. A combination of both can definitely help with clarity for sure though. It ultimately depends on the aesthetic you're going for...
> 
> Metric AB's great. You can actually set the release to _infinite_, or set it to the number just below infinite. This gives you a super slow FFT that shows you the overall balance. This is how I leave mine set up. With _infinite_, the spectrum will freeze over time (which I find useful, it takes some getting used to though so you might not like it.) To refresh the analyzer you just hit the Arrow icon.
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to explain and get some images. Its really helpful


----------



## fakemaxwell (Jul 22, 2022)

JCarlsen said:


> Mixing low ie. Low volume to avoid fatigue.


Sometimes you have to pump it up a bit, especially when dealing with low end. Ears do not hear low and mid frequencies properly if the volume is too low.


----------



## fakemaxwell (Jul 22, 2022)

proggermusic said:


> The reality is, no matter how good your headphones, monitors, room, etc. are, when you're mixing a project, you need to check it on as many sources as possible: studio headphones, studio monitors, consumer headphones/loudspeakers, in the car, even on laptop speakers! Each source will help you hear different things and slowly you'll zero in on a good approximation that works well on multiple sources.


I think this is well intentioned and a fairly common bit of advice but in my experience I'm not sure it holds true, especially for a beginner. There's too much noise and not enough signal when you're listening to a mix on so many different sources.

Instead, flip it. Listen to tons of different content on the same monitoring setup. Music, Netflix, feature films, Youtube videos, Tiktok... Your ears will naturally acclimate, and you'll be more aware of what you're listening to when mixing. Once you're really comfortable with a mixing setup and know what "good" sounds like on it, you'll have no issue translating it to other sources.


----------



## jcrosby (Jul 23, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> I think this is well intentioned and a fairly common bit of advice but in my experience I'm not sure it holds true, especially for a beginner. There's too much noise and not enough signal when you're listening to a mix on so many different sources.
> 
> Instead, flip it. Listen to tons of different content on the same monitoring setup. Music, Netflix, feature films, Youtube videos, Tiktok... Your ears will naturally acclimate, and you'll be more aware of what you're listening to when mixing. Once you're really comfortable with a mixing setup and know what "good" sounds like on it, you'll have no issue translating it to other sources.


For sure. Listening to references should be practice number one. 10 different speakers won't tell you anything other than the fact that they sound different in 10 different ways until you have a reference for what something _should_ sound like on of those 10 different options.

Additional monitors are useful for sure, but the preface is that you need to have a baseline for understanding _why_ you would choose one of those 10 different options, and what they're supposed to inform you about in comparison to another set of monitors...


----------



## Henu (Jul 23, 2022)

Pier said:


> Personally I've always been very skeptical about solutions like Sonarworks.


Sonarworks is absolutely crucial on nearfields, but on headphones it has too many variables as you also mentioned. I use HD600's when I use phones, and I never want to use SW when doing that because it makes the sound just worse and skewed.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Jul 23, 2022)

Henu said:


> Sonarworks is absolutely crucial on nearfields, but on headphones it has too many variables as you also mentioned. I use HD600's when I use phones, and I never want to use SW when doing that because it makes the sound just worse and skewed.


Now, those are headphones I'd like! But, as well as the increased price, I'd also have to upgrade my amp for the 300 ohms impedance.


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 23, 2022)

Download the free 41-day version now!


With Realphones, you can work in your headphones as efficiently as you would on professional monitors in an acoustically designed room!




www.dsoniq.com


----------



## SergeD (Jul 23, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> Download the free 41-day version now!
> 
> 
> With Realphones, you can work in your headphones as efficiently as you would on professional monitors in an acoustically designed room!
> ...


Now on sale, could you elaborate a little more about this tool please?


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 23, 2022)

SergeD said:


> Now on sale, could you elaborate a little more about this tool please?


It's very good. VSX is still better imo but you can try Realphones with cans you already have.


----------



## method1 (Jul 23, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> It's very good. VSX is still better imo but you can try Realphones with cans you already have.


I was pleasantly surprised! I have VSX and spent some time comparing the VSX, Realphones & Sienna using the Slate Headphones, very good value at the current price, plus for anyone interested you can get an extra 20% off sale price with *COUPON: EXTRA20*


----------



## Trash Panda (Jul 23, 2022)

SergeD said:


> Now on sale, could you elaborate a little more about this tool please?


It’s pretty great! Optimized (75%) correction with standard width is the sweet spot. 

Their new car mix check needs some work, but overall it does the job of Sonarworks + Canopener + room impulse for cheaper.


----------



## JCarlsen (Jul 23, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> It’s pretty great! Optimized (75%) correction with standard width is the sweet spot.
> 
> Their new car mix check needs some work, but overall it does the job of Sonarworks + Canopener + room impulse for cheaper.


Is the idea to try different presets and make sure it sounds good across different ones or?


----------



## Bee_Abney (Jul 23, 2022)

JCarlsen said:


> Is the idea to try different presets and make sure it sounds good across different ones or?


It is both to 'correct' the frequency response of your headphones and, separately, to simulate different listening conditions. I think - I looked quickly.


----------



## Casiquire (Jul 23, 2022)

I use the same headphones. I strongly suggest SoundID. Ideally you want to learn your headphones, of course, but you're so new to mixing compared to some of the names being thrown around, you first need to establish what a good "sound" is and what good balance sounds like. SoundID helps tremendously with that aim. 

I also disagree with most of the reasons I've seen against SoundID here. For example, it doesn't account for ear shape? No headphones do, our brains have adapted to do that for us. They don't know what equipment we're using, sure, but you'd want that to be pretty neutral anyway and it won't make half the difference SoundID will. Also VSX is out of stock, but it does seem like another good tool to use.

The headphones are very good, but they're still so not flat. SoundID will surprise you with how much sound isn't even reaching your ears. 

I'd beware of advice that's not meeting you at your level. If you're still developing confidence, using tools isn't cheating or bad as long as you learn from them. The goal should be to get your confidence up enough that you don't need it anymore because you know what good mixes sound like and you can just EQ everything yourself


----------



## StefanoM (Jul 23, 2022)

If you want to start working with the headphones, as a Main Setup, I suggest you invest money in magnet planar headphones + decent Pre Amp (starting from a Fiio K5 Pro ). I'm not saying to spend $ 1000 for the LCD-X ( even if it was one of my BEST investiment in my life) , but there are cheaper systems starting from $ 250/350$ ( Sundara, Monoprice Monolith M1060 etc ) that are much better than many ( if not all ) dynamic headphones ( I have a lot of headphones all the DT series 770, 880, 990, I've the Focal, the HD660, the AudioTechnica...etc). The advantages of using planar magnet headphones are considerable, a more natural frequency response, a better bass extension, even at low volumes, less distortion, and a better sound stage. But a calibration system then accompanies this it is indispensable. I find SIENNA by Acustica Audio much better than Sound ID for headphones ( That I use for my Main Studio Monitors to fix just some little issues) . Even if you use only the headphone calibration system without the ROOM, those who work badly using calibration systems, it is because they don't trust them. And he often does repeat A / B with calibration, and without calibration, I'm afraid that's not right. You must trust. Learn to listen to a calibrated system. It takes Time. Over Time you will find that you make much, much better choices. Each headphone has a lot of problems, and the listening to the headphone has a lot of problems... so it needs calibration to mitigate them... just as much as a studio monitor system in a poor room, without considering the importance of correcting the crossfeed with tools like CanOpener


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 23, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> It is both to 'correct' the frequency response of your headphones and, separately, to simulate different listening conditions. I think - I looked quickly.


You _can _separate those functions in Realphones if you really want to, but they are designed to be used together, precisely as a tool to help mix translation.


----------



## Pier (Jul 23, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Now, those are headphones I'd like! But, as well as the increased price, I'd also have to upgrade my amp for the 300 ohms impedance.


Do you get Massdrop in the UK?

You could check the HD6XX which have similar sound signature but may be more affordable.









Massdrop x Sennheiser HD 6XX | Top Rated Open-Back Headphones | Drop


Our all-time best selling open-back audiophile headphones, the Massdrop x Sennheiser HD 6XX is a replacement to the original HD 650 with a refreshed aesthetic & improved utility.




drop.com


----------



## Bee_Abney (Jul 23, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> You _can _separate those functions in Realphones if you really want to, but they are designed to be used together, precisely as a tool to help mix translation.


Yes, used together. Separate in the sense that they are distinct functions.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Jul 23, 2022)

Pier said:


> Do you get Massdrop in the UK?
> 
> You could check the HD6XX which have similar sound signature but may be more affordable.
> 
> ...


Yes, I'll check that out, thanks.


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 23, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Yes, used together. Separate in the sense that they are distinct functions.


They can for sure be distinguished but does that mean they are distinct? There's a lot of interesting technical discussion from the dev about his ideas on GS, especially in the thread about the 1.8 update.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Jul 23, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> They can for sure be distinguished but does that mean they are distinct? There's a lot of interesting technical discussion from the dev about his ideas on GS, especially in the thread about the 1.8 update.


Yes, linguistically it does! That is, they are analytically distinct. This dosen't mean that they can't be very intimately connected. For example, imagine that the mind and brain are connected through a relationship of supervenience. No change of state in the mind happens unless there is a change of state in the brain. Nevertheless they are analytically distinct; they are separate concepts in this case. The brain has mass, the mind doesn't. The question 'Are the brain and the mind connected?' is meaningful.

But these matters aren't very revealing about the software in question; it's just a matter of language!


----------



## Instrugramm (Jul 23, 2022)

Get HD600s and some room emulation, mixing with Beyerdynamics is hard. The Sennheisers are fairly flat with a narrow soundstage, the bass deficit will be cured by a custom frequency curve in the chosen room emulation software thus allowing for good judgement of the low end . This track was mixed and mastered purely on HD600s within a few hours.


----------



## marius_dm (Jul 23, 2022)

In my (unpopular) opinion, translation issues are not a gear problem. Any gear needs to be learned.


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 23, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Yes, linguistically it does! That is, they are analytically distinct. This dosen't mean that they can't be very intimately connected. For example, imagine that the mind and brain are connected through a relationship of supervenience. No change of state in the mind happens unless there is a change of state in the brain. Nevertheless they are analytically distinct; they are separate concepts in this case. The brain has mass, the mind doesn't. The question 'Are the brain and the mind connected?' is meaningful.
> 
> But these matters aren't very revealing about the software in question; it's just a matter of language!


Oh yes I agree they are analytically distinct, but your original "separately" seemed to imply that either one could/should be used alone, which is definitely not the dev's intention. (But then, what is "intention"? A lot of people seem to have spectacularly wrong ideas about that.)


----------



## Bee_Abney (Jul 23, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> Oh yes I agree they are analytically distinct, but your original "separately" seemed to imply that either one could/should be used alone, which is definitely not the dev's intention. (But then, what is "intention"? A lot of people seem to have spectacularly wrong ideas about that.)


Thanks for clarifying!


----------



## Instrugramm (Jul 23, 2022)

marius_dm said:


> In my (unpopular) opinion, translation issues are not a gear problem. Any gear needs to be learned.


Yes and no, I could mix the song on my Ether CXs (fairly flat but closed-backs have issues in terms of reverb translation) or maybe even my Focal Elegias (not linear at all and the sound stage is a bit too large but they have good indication for sibilance) but there would still be some guess work involved. Your mileage may vary, just wanted to chime in, everybody has his ways I suppose.


----------



## liquidlino (Jul 24, 2022)

Pier said:


> FWIW my DT990 Pro 250ohm changed drastically when I got a better amp.
> 
> For years I thought amps were mostly about being able to push more or less gain, but that's not correct. Impedance plays a big role too in how the headphones reproduce sound.
> 
> ...


Hey @Pier , now That you have the Motu M2, how do you find the M2's built in headphone amp vs the external headphone amp? Still a noticeable difference with the DT990? Is it just volume difference, or is the overall sound better with the amp? How do you have it setup - do you use the RCA outs from the M2 to the amp? Am I right that this then means that it's not possible to turn down the monitors from the M2 and control the headphone volume from external amp, as the RCA's are a copy of what's going out the balanced TRS outputs? I'm eyeing up a headphone amp, but I'm just not sure if it'll make an audible difference to the built in M2 amp - I'm happy with the volume levels from M2. Using with HD650 300ohm mostly, with rarely using MT50x.


----------



## liquidlino (Jul 24, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> For my HD 650s I did get sonar works because I was also using it to calibrate the IK multimedia I loud MTMs. It actually worked really well, at least much better than nothing (side note: I totally agree about getting a good headphone amp). I got rid of sonar works when I invested in the Neuman 2.1 system which has its own calibration so that leaves me kind of stuck with my HD 650s being stock again because Neumann software and sonar works do not play nice together.
> 
> However one thing I wanted to mention, when I was using sonar works in the headphones, what surprised me when I first listened is that they sounded flat and lifeless at first, and reminded me of my Sony MDR7506’s I’ve had in my audio bag for quite a number of years when using a field recorder with the boom pole and shotgun mic to get audio for a video project. To hear you say that Andrew Schepp uses those for mixing now makes sense. They _are_ flat and lifeless which gives you a wonderfully even mix I bet!
> 
> Anyway @JCarlsen: I would maybe stick with what you have and get a good headphone amp, then maybe try to create a custom EQ curve to flatten down the lower end and then compare that to the mixes you’re currently getting, and see what happens. For my 650s I’m going to try that and compare against the Neumann system that is very well cal’d. Most headphones boost too much in the bottom to make them sound good. Duh. Like none of us here know that, lol!


Just use a convolution or EQ filter on your monitoring fx chain. For HD650 I use the Oratory autoEQ convolution from link below, just loaded on stock Reaper convolution verb plugin. And I run APO equalizer on my computer with the same convolution, so that I get he same sound profile from both DAW and desktop audio. https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/tree/master/results/oratory1990


----------



## Pier (Jul 24, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Hey @Pier , now That you have the Motu M2, how do you find the M2's built in headphone amp vs the external headphone amp?


Oh the better headphones amp I was referring to is actually the amp of the M4 vs the one on my previous interface (Audient iD4 v1).

I know it's not as amazing as a dedicated audiophile amp, but according to the measurements by Julian Krause and the folks at ASR, it's good.


----------



## PaulieDC (Jul 24, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Just use a convolution or EQ filter on your monitoring fx chain. For HD650 I use the Oratory autoEQ convolution from link below, just loaded on stock Reaper convolution verb plugin. And I run APO equalizer on my computer with the same convolution, so that I get he same sound profile from both DAW and desktop audio. https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/tree/master/results/oratory1990


I will check that out, thanks!


----------



## liquidlino (Jul 25, 2022)

Pier said:


> Oh the better headphones amp I was referring to is actually the amp of the M4 vs the one on my previous interface (Audient iD4 v1).
> 
> I know it's not as amazing as a dedicated audiophile amp, but according to the measurements by Julian Krause and the folks at ASR, it's good.


Ah good! Yeah, I agree, the stats are good - just limited total power output, so things like LCD-X might be harder to drive apparently, but I don't have high end planar (yet). Think I'll hold off on the external amp then, I suspect it'll be added complication for little benefit.


----------



## pinki (Jul 25, 2022)

StefanoM said:


> If you want to start working with the headphones, as a Main Setup, I suggest you invest money in magnet planar headphones + decent Pre Amp (starting from a Fiio K5 Pro ). I'm not saying to spend $ 1000 for the LCD-X ( even if it was one of my BEST investiment in my life) , but there are cheaper systems starting from $ 250/350$ ( Sundara, Monoprice Monolith M1060 etc ) that are much better than many ( if not all ) dynamic headphones ( I have a lot of headphones all the DT series 770, 880, 990, I've the Focal, the HD660, the AudioTechnica...etc). The advantages of using planar magnet headphones are considerable, a more natural frequency response, a better bass extension, even at low volumes, less distortion, and a better sound stage. But a calibration system then accompanies this it is indispensable. I find SIENNA by Acustica Audio much better than Sound ID for headphones ( That I use for my Main Studio Monitors to fix just some little issues) . Even if you use only the headphone calibration system without the ROOM, those who work badly using calibration systems, it is because they don't trust them. And he often does repeat A / B with calibration, and without calibration, I'm afraid that's not right. You must trust. Learn to listen to a calibrated system. It takes Time. Over Time you will find that you make much, much better choices. Each headphone has a lot of problems, and the listening to the headphone has a lot of problems... so it needs calibration to mitigate them... just as much as a studio monitor system in a poor room, without considering the importance of correcting the crossfeed with tools like CanOpener


Yes to magneto planar headphones!
I have the Oppos and their phase response is extraordinary. And they don’t particularly sound ‘nice’ but that’s the point. High-end dynamic headphones sound fabulous and that’s not good.
My main monitors are ATC and it’s the same deal, they don’t sound ‘nice’. But that’s what I want to monitor and mix. This is a big complex subject with many views, but that’s my experience. Magneto planar headphones are game changing.


----------



## StefanoM (Jul 25, 2022)

pinki said:


> Yes to magneto planar headphones!
> I have the Oppos and their phase response is extraordinary. And they don’t particularly sound ‘nice’ but that’s the point. High-end dynamic headphones sound fabulous and that’s not good.
> My main monitors are ATC and it’s the same deal, they don’t sound ‘nice’. But that’s what I want to monitor and mix. This is a big complex subject with many views, but that’s my experience. Magneto planar headphones are game changing.


Exactly.

The same thing is with the "calibration''.

It is not important if it sound "nice" , but it is important that sounds correct.

So for me Magneto Planar + Calibration is the way to work on the Headphones, yes are game changing.. and you undestand that only when you sart to work with that.


----------



## Loerpert (Jul 25, 2022)

I've got the 1990, 990 and 770. Would really recommend the 1990 or 990 for mixing. Especially orchestral music. Miles better than mixing with a 770..


----------



## JCarlsen (Jul 26, 2022)

Update:
I currently have a pair of dt 900 pro x on trial and the difference to the 770s is quite big. The seperation of instruments is alot clearer and balancing a track is more intuitive on this set for me atleast. Panning and placement is easier from left to right aswell as depth. 

Judging reverb is still the same, quite hard to hear well but as several people pointed out this could be the case. All in all this pair has given a better translation plus less smacks in the head for not hearing my wife 😏

I might decide to keep this pair as it has given me overall improved quality and that harsh treble that the 770s have has been tamed.


----------



## Pier (Jul 26, 2022)

JCarlsen said:


> Update:
> I currently have a pair of dt 900 pro x on trial and the difference to the 770s is quite big. The seperation of instruments is alot clearer and balancing a track is more intuitive on this set for me atleast. Panning and placement is easier from left to right aswell as depth.
> 
> Judging reverb is still the same, quite hard to hear well but as several people pointed out this could be the case. All in all this pair has given a better translation plus less smacks in the head for not hearing my wife 😏
> ...


Beware of the 990s as they are super V shaped.

Just yesterday I was doing a headphones listening test with a friend. When we got to the 990s his comment was "wtf happened to the mids?".

The soundstage will probably be better than the 770s though (open vs closed).

Edit:

What I wrote is true but @JCarlsen is not using the 990s 😂


----------



## JCarlsen (Jul 26, 2022)

Pier said:


> Beware of the 990s as they are super V shaped.
> 
> Just yesterday I was doing a headphones listening test with a friend. When we got to the 990s his comment was "wtf happened to the mids?".
> 
> The soundstage will probably be better than the 770s though (open vs closed).


Are the 900 pro x similar to the 990s?


----------



## Pier (Jul 26, 2022)

JCarlsen said:


> Are the 900 pro x similar to the 990s?


Ah sorry I'm an idiot! 😂

I misread and thought you were using the 990s.


----------



## JCarlsen (Aug 17, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Just use a convolution or EQ filter on your monitoring fx chain. For HD650 I use the Oratory autoEQ convolution from link below, just loaded on stock Reaper convolution verb plugin. And I run APO equalizer on my computer with the same convolution, so that I get he same sound profile from both DAW and desktop audio. https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/tree/master/results/oratory1990


Thanks for this tip. It worked great for me atleast 🙂


----------

