# Keylab 88 mk1 replacement, thinking vpc1, or MP11SE and some form of controller..



## MusicalG (Sep 13, 2020)

Hello folks, I hope you are all safe and well,  

I have a keylab 88 mk1, it’s kind of on its last legs I think, I have had it five years, the led is failing, I have repaired some of the keys that weren’t working etc.

it’s been a good keyboard to be fair.

I am looking for something that will hopefully last a bit longer,

I like playing piano, although I am self taught and not a pianist, I get by though.
I love string libraries as well, so in some ways the keylab was perfect, hammer action and faders etc.

I know there are similar posts to this one, but not quite the same etc.

I have been offered an MP11SE but I probably wouldn’t use the internal sounds etc, I sometimes take a Yamaha p-120 when gigging, but mostly play solo acoustic guitar, for bread and butter pub gigs etc.

I am very interested in the Kawai Vpc1, with maybe another keyboard to sit on the top, or a decent midi controller with high quality faders, does anyone know if the VPC1 is ok for (action wise) for controlling string libraries etc, I used to use the first three faders (expression, modulation and vibrato etc).

I have been researching for a week and would probably prefer to stay away from Fatar keybeds unless there is particularly a highly regarded one, that stands the test of time.

any recommendations would be gratefully received.
Thanks 
Christian


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## proxima (Sep 13, 2020)

VPC1 has one of the heaviest actions you'll find in a MIDI controller. Whether you like to write strings with a heavy action is up to you. 

I have an MP11 (original) and have complained about it here. I don't actually know whether the VPC1 shares the same teflon-tape-over-felt design.


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## MusicalG (Sep 13, 2020)

proxima said:


> VPC1 has one of the heaviest actions you'll find in a MIDI controller. Whether you like to write strings with a heavy action is up to you.
> 
> I have an MP11 (original) and have complained about it here. I don't actually know whether the VPC1 shares the same teflon-tape-over-felt design.


On the occasions I have played acoustic pianos mostly in pubs, the keybeds are knackered so you have to hit them hard, I am probably quite heavy handed anyway, the keylab 88 has a heavier action than my p120,

I used to prefer the feel of the Yamaha, but recently prefer the Arturia It’s a bit more responsive when you dig in, but it has a very noisy keybed, one of the selling points of the vpc1 is how quiet it appears to be.

although I have never tried one in person.

I did read your thread on the mp11, has replacing the Teflon tape helped?

And thanks for taking the time to reply
It’s very appreciated.
Christian


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## proxima (Sep 13, 2020)

MusicalG said:


> I did read your thread on the mp11, has replacing the Teflon tape helped?


For now, but I just did it a few months ago. I'm not confident it will last many years.


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## MusicalG (Sep 13, 2020)

proxima said:


> For now, but I just did it a few months ago. I'm not confident it will last many years.


How long have you owned the MP11 for? Don’t Kawai offer a five year guarantee?


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## proxima (Sep 13, 2020)

MusicalG said:


> How long have you owned the MP11 for? Don’t Kawai offer a five year guarantee?


Purchased in 2014, and it's a 3 year warranty, sadly.


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## Gerbil (Sep 13, 2020)

The VPC1 is brilliant. Lots of space on top as well. I've got a PC1600, a stream deck XL, computer keyboard and mouse on mine with space to spare. It's three or four years old and plays as new.


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## SGordB (Sep 13, 2020)

FWIW, not long after buying a VPC1 this January, I discovered, to my surprise, that I prefer the control a weighted keyboard gives me to the synth action of my cheap Acorn Masterkey for playing _any_ VI. This happened when I found myself using the VPC1 for that purpose, probably while changing patches or something -- not intentionally. I enjoyed the more nuanced and accurate dynamic control so much that I replaced the Masterkey with my Casio Privia 850 as my second tier keyboard, i.e. the keyboard unit of the Casio (minus its stand) sits on top of the VPC1. If, say, I want to play the Joshua Bell violin with my right hand and piano with the left, the Casio plays those violin lines better than the Masterkey would have. So, long story short, YMMV, but for me, at least, a weighted keyboard seems to make everything more playable. I love the VPC1 so much that if I could clone it and put one on top of the other, that would be my ideal setup. It is, indeed, blissfully quiet (even compared to the Privia's keyboard which was just replaced last fall after becoming unbearably noisy over the years), except for the creaky pedal, and has the kind of super-responsive action that dares you to become the best piano player you can be.


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## MusicalG (Sep 16, 2020)

SGordB said:


> FWIW, not long after buying a VPC1 this January, I discovered, to my surprise, that I prefer the control a weighted keyboard gives me to the synth action of my cheap Acorn Masterkey for playing _any_ VI. This happened when I found myself using the VPC1 for that purpose, probably while changing patches or something -- not intentionally. I enjoyed the more nuanced and accurate dynamic control so much that I replaced the Masterkey with my Casio Privia 850 as my second tier keyboard, i.e. the keyboard unit of the Casio (minus its stand) sits on top of the VPC1. If, say, I want to play the Joshua Bell violin with my right hand and piano with the left, the Casio plays those violin lines better than the Masterkey would have. So, long story short, YMMV, but for me, at least, a weighted keyboard seems to make everything more playable. I love the VPC1 so much that if I could clone it and put one on top of the other, that would be my ideal setup. It is, indeed, blissfully quiet (even compared to the Privia's keyboard which was just replaced last fall after becoming unbearably noisy over the years), except for the creaky pedal, and has the kind of super-responsive action that dares you to become the best piano player you can be.


Great thank you for your response, it’s very appreciated


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## IFM (Sep 16, 2020)

I still have my KL88 mkI. Don't get an MKII, tried two of them and the velocity curve is terrible. I have an S88mkII that works well. StudioLogic is good IMO. I can't comment on the others you suggested.


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## SGordB (Sep 16, 2020)

MusicalG said:


> Great thank you for your response, it’s very appreciated



You're welcome. One more thing: the VPC1 is quiet, but objectively it's far from silent. There's a low-pitched woody thud for every key stroke, which I guess is mechanically unavoidable, but I don't normally notice it. Compared to the clickety-clacks of a bad keybed -- like a reasonably worn Privia -- it's "blissful." Based on my experience and the research I did before buying (reading what other users have said etc.), it sounds like mine is consistent with a pretty universally positive reaction to the VPC1's action. Also, since I didn't explicitly mention it, once you set up a curve for any given VI that's to your liking, the dynamic control -- the ppp to fff -- the VPC1 can give you is so rewarding, whether you create the curve with the VPC1's editor app or inside the VI (I usually default to the latter nowadays).

All that said, I'm tempted to buy an SL88 Grand (because much cheaper than VPC1) one of these days to use as my second-tier board instead of the old Privia. As with the VPC1, nowhere within 1000 miles to audition one before buying. But my leap of faith with the VPC1 clearly paid off.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 16, 2020)

you might want to check out the very inexpensive Nektar LX88+. it is by no means a fully weighted controller on par with the VPC1, but the keybed is extremely quiet, its one of the main reasons I bought one. If your priority is piano feel accuracy I would not recommend it, but that doesn't sound to me like the highest priority to you. Check it out.


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## MusicalG (Oct 5, 2020)

SGordB said:


> You're welcome. One more thing: the VPC1 is quiet, but objectively it's far from silent. There's a low-pitched woody thud for every key stroke, which I guess is mechanically unavoidable, but I don't normally notice it. Compared to the clickety-clacks of a bad keybed -- like a reasonably worn Privia -- it's "blissful." Based on my experience and the research I did before buying (reading what other users have said etc.), it sounds like mine is consistent with a pretty universally positive reaction to the VPC1's action. Also, since I didn't explicitly mention it, once you set up a curve for any given VI that's to your liking, the dynamic control -- the ppp to fff -- the VPC1 can give you is so rewarding, whether you create the curve with the VPC1's editor app or inside the VI (I usually default to the latter nowadays).
> 
> All that said, I'm tempted to buy an SL88 Grand (because much cheaper than VPC1) one of these days to use as my second-tier board instead of the old Privia. As with the VPC1, nowhere within 1000 miles to audition one before buying. But my leap of faith with the VPC1 clearly paid off.


My Vpc1 has just arrived


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## SGordB (Oct 5, 2020)

MusicalG said:


> My Vpc1 has just arrived


Gulp. I hope you love it. It took me a few days to adjust to the heavy action, and even the "escapement" feature threw me off a little at first as a feral keyboard player raised by synth actions.


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## MusicalG (Oct 6, 2020)

SGordB said:


> Gulp. I hope you love it. It took me a few days to adjust to the heavy action, and even the "escapement" feature threw me off a little at first as a feral keyboard player raised by synth actions.


I am not a piano player either, but have been using weighted keyboards for years, my dad has the mp11se which is a lot lighter action in my opinion.
I think it feels like a new upright, possibly one of the few grand pianos I have played. It’s a lot easier to be more expressive.

Just need to find a fader controller To sit on the top now for my string libraries. 
I am very pleased with it so far, but it will take a little getting used to


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## SGordB (Oct 6, 2020)

"It’s a lot easier to be more expressive." Yeah! VPC1 in a nutshell.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 6, 2020)

I read a lot of competing opinions about the VPC1 keybed vs the MP11 and MP11SE. I am interested in these discussions because I have a 20 year old Kawai MP9000 which has fantastic action and I'm always curious about whether I should update to one fo the newer Kawai's. 

I find it a little disturbing that there is so much difference between them, like what is Kawai changing so much and why? 

The newer ones have triple sensor and half pedaling, so I am somewhat interested...but I keep getting all these mixed reports about longer keys, pivot points, one is more or less expressive then the other and there is no consensus whatsoever on any of these subjective points.


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## MusicalG (Oct 6, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> I read a lot of competing opinions about the VPC1 keybed vs the MP11 and MP11SE. I am interested in these discussions because I have a 20 year old Kawai MP9000 which has fantastic action and I'm always curious about whether I should update to one fo the newer Kawai's.
> 
> I find it a little disturbing that there is so much difference between them, like what is Kawai changing so much and why?
> 
> The newer ones have triple sensor and half pedaling, so I am somewhat interested...but I keep getting all these mixed reports about longer keys, pivot points, one is more or less expressive then the other and there is no consensus whatsoever on any of these subjective points.


I think it will probably make a difference in the way you play, I am quite heavy handed compared to a lot of people I know etc, so I wanted something a little stiffer, I can play soft, but my average level shall we say is a probably a bit harder, probably from playing knackered old pub pianos


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## SGordB (Oct 6, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> I read a lot of competing opinions about the VPC1 keybed vs the MP11 and MP11SE. I am interested in these discussions because I have a 20 year old Kawai MP9000 which has fantastic action and I'm always curious about whether I should update to one fo the newer Kawai's.
> 
> I find it a little disturbing that there is so much difference between them, like what is Kawai changing so much and why?
> 
> The newer ones have triple sensor and half pedaling, so I am somewhat interested...but I keep getting all these mixed reports about longer keys, pivot points, one is more or less expressive then the other and there is no consensus whatsoever on any of these subjective points.



What's regrettable is that for most people, trying before buying just isn't an option for the high-end Kawai keyboards. I think it is safe to say that the MP11SE (a full-size Kawai grand piano action) and the VPC1 (a "compact" one) are topnotch (at least rivalling the best from Roland, Yamaha et al.), with some folks preferring the VPC1 even though, in principle, it's "less than." My decision, after a good year or two of pondering and lusting from afar, was to order a VPC1 on faith, knowing I could return it for a small penalty if it disappointed. So far, 9 months later, my only disappointment is the creaky sustain pedal, which I use a lot. I probably should hit up my dealer for some free maintenance.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 6, 2020)

it is very hard to try these. Nobody in my state carries either one, much less having both close by to try out.

The sustain pedal that came with my MP9000 creaks also. hehe.


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## MusicalG (Oct 6, 2020)

SGordB said:


> What's regrettable is that for most people, trying before buying just isn't an option for the high-end Kawai keyboards. I think it is safe to say that the MP11SE (a full-size Kawai grand piano action) and the VPC1 (a "compact" one) are topnotch (at least rivalling the best from Roland, Yamaha et al.), with some folks preferring the VPC1 even though, in principle, it's "less than." My decision, after a good year or two of pondering and lusting from afar, was to order a VPC1 on faith, knowing I could return it for a small penalty if it disappointed. So far, 9 months later, my only disappointment is the creaky sustain pedal, which I use a lot. I probably should hit up my dealer for some free maintenance.


The mp11se feels far more robust than the vpc1 pedal set, and it’s optical. But I can live with the VPC1 

it’s definitely made playing my VI pianos a more immersive experience.

even keyscape feels nicer which I wasn’t overly fond of.

which vi pianos are your favourites bud?


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## SGordB (Oct 6, 2020)

MusicalG said:


> The mp11se feels far more robust than the vpc1 pedal set, and it’s optical. But I can live with the VPC1
> 
> it’s definitely made playing my VI pianos a more immersive experience.
> 
> ...



That's a real moving target. Lately, I've rediscovered VI Labs's Ravenscroft, which had been gathering dust while I fell for Galaxy's Steinway D (crisp, clean) and doubled down on my Garritan CFX addiction (a kind of "reference grand piano," in my mind). For years I've been tempted to clean house by selling the True Keys grands, but every time I revisit them I rediscover their charms. Sometimes it's the delicate brightness of the Fazioli; sometimes, it's the furrowed brow of the Bechstein. More often than not, the character of the pianos changes altogether (this is true of all piano VIs) if I take another crack at the mic setup and/or the velocity response. And then there's Pianoteq. And Ivory, which I have yet to buy. And Piano in Blue, which I loved from afar but have never been able to get into since I bought it. And the Synchrons: I have the lite version of the Steinway and have demoed a couple others, but I just can't tweak the settings on any of them so that I get the satisfyingly ferocious timbre shift I get from other VI pianos when I slap a bass note with an ff-fff (so wonderfully easy to do with the VPC1).

EDIT: Mustn't forget the Production Grand (cheap lite version), which I've also been getting lots of mileage out of since buying it a few months ago. Signature Grand: also another charmer. Walker Grand: a crowd pleaser that's just not my cup of tea, unlike Embertone's Joshua Bell violin, which is a gem.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Oct 6, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> The newer ones have triple sensor and half pedaling, so I am somewhat interested...but I keep getting all these mixed reports about longer keys, pivot points, one is more or less expressive then the other and there is no consensus whatsoever on any of these subjective points.


These are all improvements. They make the instrument more expressive and more controllable. I'm not sure what would be controversial. Longer keys are part of what makes an acoustic concert grand able to play softer than a baby grand. Those long levers with a fulcrum further back (required by the longer strings so the hammers hit in the correct location) are what do that. In digitals, longer keys mean that playing near the back of the keys is closer to the effort of playing at the front. This is always welcome. I wish digital pianos were lots deeper and that the keybeds used it to advantage. I won't buy a piano without triple sensor now that I have one. Half pedaling? Real dampers are continuous - shouldn't the digitals behave similarly? 

Are these enough to warrant moving from an MP-11 to an MP-11SE? Who knows? - not me. I played the MP-11 and loved it. I've never played them back to back. But there's no way the MIDI stream looks worse, and they make the SE now.... There's physical reasons for the improvements to be real, and so, why not? As excellent as it is, the MP-11/MP-11SE action is not even Kawai's best - those are reserved for their "console digitals". The MP-11 action is the best portable action I've played, though the packaging is not really all that "portable", and it is a bit awkward for a desk. But the action is superb.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 6, 2020)

I'm just googling around and seeing competing points of view about VPC1 vs MP11. I see no consensus whatsoever that one is better then the other. Longer keys or not.


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## MusicalG (Oct 7, 2020)

SGordB said:


> That's a real moving target. Lately, I've rediscovered VI Labs's Ravenscroft, which had been gathering dust while I fell for Galaxy's Steinway D (crisp, clean) and doubled down on my Garritan CFX addiction (a kind of "reference grand piano," in my mind). For years I've been tempted to clean house by selling the True Keys grands, but every time I revisit them I rediscover their charms. Sometimes it's the delicate brightness of the Fazioli; sometimes, it's the furrowed brow of the Bechstein. More often than not, the character of the pianos changes altogether (this is true of all piano VIs) if I take another crack at the mic setup and/or the velocity response. And then there's Pianoteq. And Ivory, which I have yet to buy. And Piano in Blue, which I loved from afar but have never been able to get into since I bought it. And the Synchrons: I have the lite version of the Steinway and have demoed a couple others, but I just can't tweak the settings on any of them so that I get the satisfyingly ferocious timbre shift I get from other VI pianos when I slap a bass note with an ff-fff (so wonderfully easy to do with the VPC1).
> 
> EDIT: Mustn't forget the Production Grand (cheap lite version), which I've also been getting lots of mileage out of since buying it a few months ago. Signature Grand: also another charmer. Walker Grand: a crowd pleaser that's just not my cup of tea, unlike Embertone's Joshua Bell violin, which is a gem.


I really like the Cfx probably my favourite out of the ones I own, pianoteq is good, Ravenscroft is on my list when I have the funds etc, noire is nice, keyscape was a little disappointing for me personally, but much better with the VPC1, I have a couple of the Imperfect sample pianos which are quite good as well, Ivory is ok, but not overly keen (studio pianos).
Wouldn’t mind the Bosendorfer imperial, after hearing Jordan Rudess play it so well etc  thanks for your time and all your help buddy


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## MusicalG (Oct 7, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> I'm just googling around and seeing competing points of view about VPC1 vs MP11. I see no consensus whatsoever that one is better then the other. Longer keys or not.


I googled it a lot also, the longer pivot point wasn’t as noticeable as people thought it would be, from the opinions I have read anyway.


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